# Pan Celtic Race 2023



## steveindenmark (29 Nov 2022)

The start date for the Pan Celtic Race 2023 will be Sunday 2nd July 2023. 

It is starting at St Malo in Brittainy and heads off to Mont St Michel and through Normandy to Ouisterham and over to Portsmouth. The route heads off, I do not know where and ends in Llandudno.

There is a long course of 1425 miles and 72,911ft of ascent and a short course of 1066 miles and 54, 342ft of ascent.

Applications open on the 2nd of December and will be oversubscribed, I would imagine. I will be applying for the short course as I am not a racer and want to try to keep involved in the race from start to finish. If I get a slot, I will hopefully be bivvying as I go along.

Anybody else fancy having a go?


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## 13 rider (29 Nov 2022)

Your braver than me . Good luck getting a spot . Then you really need the luck 
Once you get a route I'm sure cyclechatters would help (what ever is allowed )


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## Alex321 (29 Nov 2022)

Wow.

I wouldn't be capable of riding that. They are expecting most people to be averaging over 100 miles per day, as they expect most to complete it in 10 days or less.

That is a real serious challenge for most cyclists.


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## twentysix by twentyfive (29 Nov 2022)

steveindenmark said:


> 1066



It's another of those continental invasions 

Good luck to those who ride this one


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## Alex321 (29 Nov 2022)

steveindenmark said:


> It is starting at St Malo in Brittainy and heads off to Mont St Michel and through Normandy to Ouisterham and over to Portsmouth. The route heads off, I do not know where and ends in Llandudno.


My guess is that from Portsmouth it will be heading towards Cornwall, then back to South Wales, Fishguard - Rosslare ferry, throiugh Ireland, Dublin - Holyhead ferry, to finish in Llandudno.

But that misses Scotland entirely. So the second ferry could be Larne or Belfast - Cairnryan, then cycle South from Scotland to N Wales.

I'd be surprised if it visits Isle of Man at all this year.


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## steveindenmark (29 Nov 2022)

Alex321 said:


> My guess is that from Portsmouth it will be heading towards Cornwall, then back to South Wales, Fishguard - Rosslare ferry, throiugh Ireland, Dublin - Holyhead ferry, to finish in Llandudno.
> 
> But that misses Scotland entirely. So the second ferry could be Larne or Belfast - Cairnryan, then cycle South from Scotland to N Wales.
> 
> I'd be surprised if it visits Isle of Man at all this year.



You may be right.

I was doubtful about the Irish leg. But reading through the small print it does say.


Ferry Crossings for every rider
I could be wrong. But if it was just from Normandy to Portsmouth I would think it would say "Ferry Crossing" Singular.

We get to know the route on the 2nd.


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## steveindenmark (29 Nov 2022)

twentysix by twentyfive said:


> It's another of those continental invasions
> 
> Good luck to those who ride this one



Yes. I could not resist riding the 1066 😁


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## bluenotebob (2 Dec 2022)

steveindenmark said:


> We get to know the route on the 2nd.



Will you publish a link to the route when known, Steve? - thanks


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## Alex321 (2 Dec 2022)

bluenotebob said:


> Will you publish a link to the route when known, Steve? - thanks



https://www.pancelticrace.com/2022-route-overview/
Ignore the fact it says 2022 in the URL, it is actually the 2023 route.

I was wrong in my guesses, it doesn't touch Cornwall, Ireland or Scotland at all. Only Brittany and Wales of the "Celtic Nations".


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## steveindenmark (2 Dec 2022)

bluenotebob said:


> Will you publish a link to the route when known, Steve? - thanks



Yes I will do.

I know it starts at St Malo and goes to Mont St Michel and then Ouistreham for the Ferry. Offas Dyke is also mentioned.


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## matticus (2 Dec 2022)

steveindenmark said:


> Anybody else fancy having a go?



Not me - it's a plastic hat event. Despite them saying:
Ultra-endurance, self-supported bike riding is no more dangerous than riding your bike to the local shop, providing you observe basic and common rules relating to YOUR safety​
I'll probably do another long audax in 2023, PBP* being the main candidate. Bit more inclusive than most of the Ultras.

*Also in Britanny of course! But start/finish just outside Paris.


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## bluenotebob (2 Dec 2022)

Thanks @Alex321 ... it's a real 'Tour Of Brittany' before heading east to Mont St Michel. Looks like it'll pass pretty close to me too (there's a big inland loop after Carnac where the route heads NE - possibly on the V3 Voie Verte which I often write about in various threads on here). 

I'll keep checking back on that link to get more detail on the route (when they publish it). 

I hope your application was successful @steveindenmark ... you could be in for a real treat (and some hard work) on the Brittany stage of the race.


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## Ming the Merciless (2 Dec 2022)

Does it visit the most western point of France?


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## T4tomo (2 Dec 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Does it visit the most western point of France?


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## steveindenmark (2 Dec 2022)

bluenotebob said:


> Thanks @Alex321 ... it's a real 'Tour Of Brittany' before heading east to Mont St Michel. Looks like it'll pass pretty close to me too (there's a big inland loop after Carnac where the route heads NE - possibly on the V3 Voie Verte which I often write about in various threads on here).
> 
> I'll keep checking back on that link to get more detail on the route (when they publish it).
> 
> I hope your application was successful @steveindenmark ... you could be in for a real treat (and some hard work) on the Brittany stage of the race.



Application opens at 8pm tonight. The places will go quickly.

I am making a loose plan in case I get a place. I am planning to fly from Denmark to Rennes as it easier for me than Dinard. I will then cycle to Dinard and stay overnight and ride to St Malo the following day. I have a couple of days in St Malo before the ride starts I already have the Dinard and St Malo accomodation booked as there will be stampede after tonight.
Part of my route to St Malo from Rennes to St. Malo is along the Voie Verte


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## steveindenmark (2 Dec 2022)

I have just got this image Bob. I am doing the short course. 1066 has a nice ring to it😁


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## steveindenmark (2 Dec 2022)

Here is the long course


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## bluenotebob (2 Dec 2022)

steveindenmark said:


> I have just got this image Bob. I am doing the short course. 1066 has a nice ring to it😁



Nothing "short" about that. How many days are you allowed to do it all in? (I'd happy with 1066 miles in a month..). 

It looks like St Malo/Fougères/Rennes - as in the long course - and after that, perhaps through the Forêt de Paimpont (if so, a lovely ride). It's hard to know exactly where that route goes .. but you might be on part of the Nantes-to-Brest canal (I can't imagine racing along there in July with all the strollers, dog-walkers and idiots who haven't ridden a bike for 20 years but have decided to rent one for a day), probably through Josselin and maybe Mûr-de-Bretagne before striking north and hitting the coast just east of Roscoff, I think. The north coast heading east towards Mont-St-Michel follows 'la Littorale' - a very lumpy ride in places ... someone on this forum did it in the other direction and wrote about it back in 2019 (or perhaps 2018). 

I've made a note for early July 2023 to come and watch somewhere along the short route and cheer you on ..


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## Ming the Merciless (2 Dec 2022)

T4tomo said:


> View attachment 669810



That’d be a no then, shame it’s a great place.


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## steveindenmark (3 Dec 2022)

It is "officially" a race. But Mally, the organiser, has the opinion that it is your adventure and you can do what you want with it. It certainly is not the Transcontinental Race. The Pan Celtic is very much concerned with including everyone and having a good time.

All the places are now sold out.


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## Proto (3 Dec 2022)

#1 daughter had made noises about riding the Pan Celtic next year but the entry fee (£450) has put her off, just can’t afford it, so she‘s looking for something else.

Shes fairly experienced, rode the Montañas Vacias and Rapha Pennine Rally this year. Any recommendations?


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## steveindenmark (5 Jan 2023)

Proto said:


> #1 daughter had made noises about riding the Pan Celtic next year but the entry fee (£450) has put her off, just can’t afford it, so she‘s looking for something else.
> 
> Shes fairly experienced, rode the Montañas Vacias and Rapha Pennine Rally this year. Any recommendations?



£450 does sound expensive. I am not sure the price of the Transcontinental Race this year, but that will not be cheap either. All these ultra races appear to be expensive.

But the same riders come back each year for the Pan Celtic which leads me to believe that it must be good value for money. This year the riders are from all over Europe, Canada, USA, Australia and New Zealand. They are actually travelling from those countries to ride. The Pan Celtic fee also covers the ferry trips needed during the race, this year from France to the UK. The PCR organisers are also very good at organising discounts with their sponsors such as Exposure lights. They also have a very good social cycling scene all the year round. People who take part are always referring to it as a family. I think people prefer it to a lot of other races as there is more of a relaxed atmosphere.

The transatlantic Way 2023 is £380. Unfortunately, it is an expensive hobby.


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## matticus (5 Jan 2023)

Proto said:


> ... but the *entry fee (£450)* has put her off, just can’t afford it, so she‘s looking for something else.
> ...
> Any recommendations?


Depends how uncool she thinks Audax is ...


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## Ming the Merciless (5 Jan 2023)

Yep, she’ll be able to get 600km of the joy of audax for less than £10 to enter. She needs to be aware audax are tougher than ultra racing, with stricter time limits. I think there’s a 1000km audax up starting up in Scottish Borders next summer.


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## steveindenmark (5 Jan 2023)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Yep, she’ll be able to get 600km of the joy of audax for less than £10 to enter. She needs to be aware audax are tougher than ultra racing, with stricter time limits. I think there’s a 1000km audax up starting up in Scottish Borders next summer.



I think the riders doing the ultra rides and also use audaxes as training rides would disagree with you. Otherwise why would these riders even bother turning up for the ultra rides.


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## Ming the Merciless (5 Jan 2023)

steveindenmark said:


> I think the riders doing the ultra rides and also use audaxes as training rides would disagree with you. Otherwise why would these riders even bother turning up for the ultra rides.



Train hard, race easy


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## steveindenmark (5 Jan 2023)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Train hard, race easy



Im 65 and am not racing anywhere. But my normal nights sleep is about 4 hours. It gives me a lot of time to ride a bike slowly. 🙂


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## matticus (6 Jan 2023)

steveindenmark said:


> I think the riders doing the ultra rides and also use audaxes as training rides would disagree with you. Otherwise why would these riders even bother turning up for the ultra rides.



I'm not sure what point you're making here. It's pretty standard for audaxers to view shorter audaxen as "training" for the longer ones.
(although sometimes the short ones are the hardest ride - certainly applied to my 2022 season 😰 )

The big difference - in this context - is that long audax events follow a standard for the minimum speeds: Ultra-race owners just choose what they see fit. (for some events that will be harder, some easier - I imagine, anyway, it's not like I've audited every Ultra-race ever staged :P )


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## Dogtrousers (6 Jan 2023)

Good luck. 

Looks like UK leg goes down roughly through the Welshpool, Kington, Clun sort of Wales/Welsh Border area. It's lovely cycling but its relentlessly rolling terrain.


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## Alex321 (6 Jan 2023)

matticus said:


> I'm not sure what point you're making here. It's pretty standard for audaxers to view shorter audaxen as "training" for the longer ones.
> (although sometimes the short ones are the hardest ride - certainly applied to my 2022 season 😰 )
> 
> The big difference - in this context - is that long audax events follow a standard for the minimum speeds: Ultra-race owners just choose what they see fit. (for some events that will be harder, some easier - I imagine, anyway, it's not like I've audited every Ultra-race ever staged :P )



I *think* his point is that while the ultra races may be "easier" for those who only want to complete within the time limit, they aren't easier for those who are actually racing them, or even who are just trying to complete them as fast as they personally can.


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## matticus (6 Jan 2023)

Alex321 said:


> I *think* his point is that while the ultra races may be "easier" for those who only want to complete within the time limit, they aren't easier for those who are actually racing them, or even who are just trying to complete them as fast as they personally can.



That is a heck of a lot more specific than the rather vague comment you are translating from! God bless you for trying though ...

But still, who the hell can know? 10 day race, even if you're aiming for the podium, requires very careful pacing; vs a 300km audax, which the same rider might ride much closer to flat-out. That's just an example of how there are way too many variables. OK, here's another one:
we see "Ultra races" that are well under 1000km. I know from riding 600km+ in a race that doing a 1500km audax event took a lot more out of me.
As I said, too may variables ...


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## Dogtrousers (6 Jan 2023)

Kinda weird to see a willy waggling contest "my audax is harder than your ultra neh neh" on this subject.

For me, ultras and 600k+ Audaxes are _precisely_ the same level of difficulty: Impossible.


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## matticus (6 Jan 2023)

Dogtrousers said:


> Kinda weird to see a willy waggling contest "my audax is harder than your ultra neh neh" on this subject.





I do generally try to keep my mouth shut about what _apparently _daft things people choose to spend their time+money on, if they're harming no-one, getting outdoors, having fun etc ...
but when the issue of _cost _comes up, it's a clear no-brainer to point out that audaxes are in a different class to the average "Ultra".


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## Dogtrousers (6 Jan 2023)

matticus said:


> but when the issue of _cost _comes up, it's a clear no-brainer to point out that audaxes are in a different class to the average "Ultra".



Audaxes are undeniably cheap  This gives them the great advantage that there is very little loss when you decide to bail out and DNF. Or indeed look at the weather forecast and DNS. (In my experience of course)


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## Alex321 (6 Jan 2023)

Dogtrousers said:


> Kinda weird to see a willy waggling contest "my audax is harder than your ultra neh neh" on this subject.
> 
> For me, ultras and 600k+ Audaxes are _precisely_ the same level of difficulty: Impossible.



That's about my level too


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## Ming the Merciless (6 Jan 2023)

Alex321 said:


> I *think* his point is that while the ultra races may be "easier" for those who only want to complete within the time limit, they aren't easier for those who are actually racing them, or even who are just trying to complete them as fast as they personally can.



Since we are now talking about the sharp end. First back on London Edinburgh London audax last year averaged 551km every 24 hours. How does that compare to those racing ultras?


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## ColinJ (6 Jan 2023)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Since we are now talking about the sharp end. First back on London Edinburgh London audax last year averaged 551km every 24 hours. How does that compare to those racing ultras?


I thought it was against the ethos of audax to compete on speed? Any idea of competition was more on length/number of rides?


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## Ming the Merciless (6 Jan 2023)

ColinJ said:


> I thought it was against the ethos of audax to compete on speed? Any idea of competition was more on length/number of rides?



It’s not competing , there isn’t a winner, that’s just the rate of ground covered by the quickest audaxers. For PBP the rate is over 600km per 24 hrs and for some over 700km every 24 hours.


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## ColinJ (6 Jan 2023)

Ah, so it is more like...

"_Obviously, we were not racing, but I had to be back to take my dog to get his claws trimmed, so I rushed round the last 600 in 21 hours 3 minutes and 37 seconds._"


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## Ming the Merciless (6 Jan 2023)

ColinJ said:


> Ah, so it is more like...
> 
> "_Obviously, we were not racing, but I had to be back to take my dog to get his claws trimmed, so I rushed round the last 600 in 21 hours 3 minutes and 37 seconds._"



Audax attracts a wide range of riders with different abilities. There’s this stereotype that we all have beards and pootle round eating cake. That’s it’s not difficult. But it’s really quite tough, the sharp end as sharp as anything in ultra racing, even the blunt end is covering over 300km a day. It tough but there’s no big focus on who is first back, the last ones back often get more TLC as they’ve been the ones who’ve had to fight the hardest to stay in the time limits.

If audax did instagram , it’d be those in the middle or back who’d feature not those at the front.


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## Dogtrousers (6 Jan 2023)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Audax attracts a wide range of riders with different abilities. There’s this stereotype that we all have beards and pootle round eating cake. That’s it’s not difficult. But it’s really quite tough, the sharp end as sharp as anything in ultra racing, even the blunt end is covering over 300km a day. It tough but there’s no big focus on who is first back, the last ones back often get more TLC as they’ve been the ones who’ve had to fight the hardest to stay in the time limits.


Is it really as "us and them" as that? Aren't they all just various different long distance events that long distance riders may or may not choose to do?

You're not debarred from one if you do the other, so surely you'll get people who both? Or do the beardie audaxers withhold cake from people who have done an ultra? (Obviously sharing cake with other riders is forbidden in Ultras)


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## Ming the Merciless (6 Jan 2023)

Dogtrousers said:


> Is it really as "us and them" as that? Aren't they all just various different long distance events that long distance riders may or may not choose to do?
> 
> You're not debarred from one if you do the other, so surely you'll get people who both? Or do the beardie audaxers withhold cake from people who have done an ultra? (Obviously sharing cake with other riders is forbidden in Ultras)



Not at all, we were just pointing out that ultra racing isn’t more difficult than audax. So if you can’t afford ultra racing, but want a similar challenge, do an audax for not a lot of money.


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## Dogtrousers (6 Jan 2023)

I know we're going way off topic but some time ago I worked on a control about 150-200k-ish into a 400. I was surprised at the number of riders who turned up on the DOT of the control opening time which showed great pace judgment as well as just riding ability (unless, of course they'd been hiding round the corner waiting for us to open).


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