# Non members continuing to ride with club



## phillip scott (7 Sep 2019)

Interested to know what other clubs do, in my cycling club there is a rider who consistently rides with us but will not become a member, the fee is only £15 a year but they refuse to pay. They engage with other members and was actually once a member but will no longer renew their membership. Despite encouragement they just will not pay. How do other clubs if experiencing similar issues deal with this.


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## screenman (7 Sep 2019)

It would be no problem with me.


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## DCLane (7 Sep 2019)

If it's a BC registered club they're covered under the club's insurance for up to 3 rides. After that they should be a member, pay the subscription and be insured.

Basically the ride organiser should tell them to pay their subs or 'push off'.


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## Milkfloat (7 Sep 2019)

If people who regularly ride in the group feel uncomfortable in telling him to bugger off or pay up then a club official who does not ride in the group could be utilised.


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## screenman (7 Sep 2019)

We get members of other clubs in our club rides.


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## Salty seadog (7 Sep 2019)

Clubs r 4 mugs.


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## Sharky (7 Sep 2019)

If you really want to get rid of somebody. Try changing the start times and/or the meeting place and only msg the members.


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## screenman (7 Sep 2019)

Salty seadog said:


> Clubs r 4 mugs.



Why?


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## Cycleops (7 Sep 2019)

Threaten them with weekly visits by @Drago demanding their fees or dousing in chemical herbicide which will render them sterile.


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## mjr (7 Sep 2019)

If it's public roads, you can't stop them. If it's formation riding, refuse to include them in the formation. Otherwise, nothing to do.

My usual group handles it by being donation-funded not subscription-funded, but that's more because it's an area of great inequality and any subscription would deter some while being trivial to others.


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## phillip scott (7 Sep 2019)

if I am honest I do not particularly mind it's just that some other members mentioned this and I was curious to know if others have this issue.


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## Salty seadog (7 Sep 2019)

screenman said:


> Why?



Clubs means rules. Rules mean some will feel the need to be the guardian of the rules.
Just not a fan in the Groucho Marx way.
Much prefer a collective informal understanding.
I know of a club that after three rides you must wear their Jersey.


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## steveindenmark (7 Sep 2019)

The treasurer needs to drop them a line to tell them to pay up or push off. This needs to be passed on to the ride organisers. 

Its a club. If everyone else pays their fees. Why should he get away with it.?


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## Racing roadkill (7 Sep 2019)

Clubs are the path to the dark side. Clubs lead to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering.


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## Edwardoka (7 Sep 2019)

The person might not be able to justify the cost of a membership. £15 a year is "nothing" to most people but when you're hard up all the little "nothings" add up and it becomes difficult to justify extra expense.

Ask them why they can't/won't pay - if they refuse to give an answer, as said above, get someone not involved with the club rides to contact them.


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## fossyant (8 Sep 2019)

I'd go with what Edwardoka says, then give them a shove. TBH we rode with loads of other riders, but we knew who was in our club. It's a bit cheeky not paying. The insurance issue is a big point to consider though.


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## steveindenmark (8 Sep 2019)

Edwardoka said:


> The person might not be able to justify the cost of a membership. £15 a year is "nothing" to most people but when you're hard up all the little "nothings" add up and it becomes difficult to justify extra expense.
> 
> Ask them why they can't/won't pay - if they refuse to give an answer, as said above, get someone not involved with the club rides to contact them.


If you cant justify the cost or can't afford to pay, you just don't turn up. Id like to go to the cinema more often. I can't justify the cost or afford it. Do you think they should let me in for free?

Im suprised this guy keeps turning up if everyone is paying. He must have no conscience.


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## PaulSB (8 Sep 2019)

We faced this issue two years ago. The basic rule in my club, I'm the secretary, is anyone who is not and has not previously been a member can ride with us five times before he/she must join. It's £20.

The club insurance covers ride leaders/organisers and club officials for incidents that might arise at or during a club event which includes rides. It doesn't cover club members.

It is a club, events, rides etc. are organised for the benefit of members and personally I don't see why non-members should benefit from this.

We had a non-payer who was chased by the Membership Secretary for nine months but refused to pay. Eventually he sent a cheque which bounced - he was riding a new bike at the time. He received an email telling him he was no longer a member, not to attend rides and was removed from the Facebook group. He rejoined 12 months later - odd.

For those who genuinely have a problem we have a policy of the committee reviewing each case on its' own merits. Fortunately it has never been necessary to do this.


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## screenman (8 Sep 2019)

Salty seadog said:


> Clubs means rules. Rules mean some will feel the need to be the guardian of the rules.
> Just not a fan in the Groucho Marx way.
> Much prefer a collective informal understanding.
> I know of a club that after the rides you must wear their Jersey.



Wow! I have been a member of different cycling clubs
for about 50 years and have never come across things like you mention, must have been lucky. Maybe you just picked the wrong one.


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## winjim (8 Sep 2019)

What do you get for the money? There must be something more than the privilege of riding on public roads. Presumably there are some other benefits which he doesn't get to enjoy.


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## PaulSB (8 Sep 2019)

screenman said:


> Wow! I have been a member of different cycling clubs
> for about 50 years and have never come across things like you mention, must have been lucky. Maybe you just picked the wrong one.



I'd have to agree with this. I've been in three clubs over the last 26 years. I've never encountered the issues others seem to experience though I accept these do occur but that is life, cycling club or not.

My wife regularly comes home from tennis and moans no one else turned up early to clean the courts before a match.


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## Salty seadog (8 Sep 2019)

screenman said:


> Wow! I have been a member of different cycling clubs
> for about 50 years and have never come across things like you mention, must have been lucky. Maybe you just picked the wrong one.



Never been a member of any. That should say that after three rides with that club you must buy and wear their Jersey.


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## Edwardoka (8 Sep 2019)

I don't doubt that this guy is chancing his luck. He already knows all the people in the club and is presumably friends with at least some of them, so maybe some have reassured him that it's fine?

The root of the problem isn't that he's not paying (unless he causes a crash his presence comes at zero tangible expense to the club), it's that having a pariah in the midst will cause conflict and sow discontent within the club because for some it's a non-issue and for others the injustice of someone getting 28p worth of company a week will gnaw at them. /s

I go to a local track for intervals and occasionally informal, undeclared pursuit races against anyone else who shows up but sometimes there's a paid coaching session on. It's a public space and like your wayward fellow I am well within my right to continue riding it but social pressure makes it feel iffy.


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## Edwardoka (8 Sep 2019)

steveindenmark said:


> If you cant justify the cost or can't afford to pay, you just don't turn up. Id like to go to the cinema more often. I can't justify the cost or afford it. Do you think they should let me in for free?
> 
> Im suprised this guy keeps turning up if everyone is paying. He must have no conscience.


I tend to have a more charitable view than most when it comes to situations like this. As I said, he's clearly chancing his luck, but your analogy doesn't work.
The cinema is private property and the film you go see is privately produced. As the roads are open and he can ride anywhere he likes, a better analogy would be a pirate downloading the film.

The existence of movie piracy doesn't negate the ownership rights of the studio nor the rights for the cinema to screen it nor the rights of the cinemagoer to see it on a big screen. Him riding alongside his former clubmates doesn't negate club membership, although it is socially awkward and something needs to be done or it will damage the club.


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## Dayvo (8 Sep 2019)

A pump or stick shoved through his spokes will soon 'learn 'im'! 

Otherwise a friendly 'pay up or go away' comment shouldn't be too difficult to understand.


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## Shadow121 (8 Sep 2019)

A friendly letter asking him to explain his presence at events that are members only,
asking him what his intentions are and why he is not forthcoming with his
membership fee, ask if there are any mitigating circumstances regarding
his club fees not being paid.
This at least will give the person a chance to explain their situation.
And the club a chance to outline the clubs policy regarding
non members turning up for club outings.


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## phillip scott (8 Sep 2019)

The person in question can afford this that's certainly not an issue for them. For the price of membership, well this helps us organise our club 10 weekly Time trial, goes towards the club Xmas night, hiring venue, food etc. Allows us to buy our kit in bulk, in order that it's a cheaper rate for members (they have a kit too) 

I have actually said it's a difficult one as you cannot stop someone from riding on a public road and to be honest I would not wish to, I just find it all a bit odd really.


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## PK99 (8 Sep 2019)

winjim said:


> What do you get for the money? There must be something more than the privilege of riding on public roads. Presumably there are some other benefits which he doesn't get to enjoy.



Someone to organize rides
Someone to lead rides
A committee to run the club.
Someone to order and hold stock of Club Kit
Someone to represent the club if JoPublic has issues.
Support if you have mechanical problems on a group ride.
etc

ie all the things that make the difference between random people sharing the road and a club


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## ianrauk (8 Sep 2019)

phillip scott said:


> The person in question can afford this that's certainly not an issue for them. For the price of membership, well this helps us organise our club 10 weekly Time trial, goes towards the club Xmas night, hiring venue, food etc. Allows us to buy our kit in bulk, in order that it's a cheaper rate for members (they have a kit too)
> 
> I have actually said it's a difficult one as you cannot stop someone from riding on a public road and to be honest I would not wish to, I just find it all a bit odd really.


You may not be able to stop him riding on public roads but you can stop him from riding with your group.

We've had similar with the Friday Night Rides. People turning up without paying their subs or registering. I explained it was club policy not to allow people who haven't paid their dues that they couldn't ride within the group.
They can either hang back on their own or leave.


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## steveindenmark (8 Sep 2019)

I think there are some unreasonably reasonable people in here. 

You pay subs to our local village bike club. For the subs the rides are organised. Someone usually provide coffee and cake or the occasional BBQ. If you don't pay the subs, just because you dont want to. After a couple of polite hints you would be told you are not welcome. 

I don't understand the mentality that that you expect something for nothing when everyone pays for it.


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## Sharky (8 Sep 2019)

PK99 said:


> Someone to organize rides
> Someone to lead rides
> A committee to run the club.
> Someone to order and hold stock of Club Kit
> ...


+
To give something back to the sport


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## Shadow121 (8 Sep 2019)

phillip scott said:


> The person in question can afford this that's certainly not an issue for them. For the price of membership, well this helps us organise our club 10 weekly Time trial, goes towards the club Xmas night, hiring venue, food etc. Allows us to buy our kit in bulk, in order that it's a cheaper rate for members (they have a kit too)
> 
> I have actually said it's a difficult one as you cannot stop someone from riding on a public road and to be honest I would not wish to, I just find it all a bit odd really.


Certainly odd, only way to clear it up is ask the person what his reason for not paying is,
personally if I determined the man to be of good character and suspected it was just down to funds
I would pay behind the scenes, and send him his membership as a gift.

Of course I understand the money is needed by the club, costs need to be paid
or else there would very soon be no club.


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## Vantage (8 Sep 2019)

Any chance he could be an honorary life member of the club? My old club had one or two members of that description simply because they had contributed so much to the club and been paid members for so long.
If not, a quiet word or polite letter stating that whilst the club cannot legally stop him from riding on the public roads with you, to do so within the club itself whilst other members are paying for it is a little rude/insulting.


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## Flying Dodo (8 Sep 2019)

I'd have a quiet word with him and give him an ultimatum - either he pays up or if he refuses, mention that the next ride he turns up for, you'll be making a public announcement. This would highlight the fact that he keeps on turning up on rides but is refusing to pay his membership, and so isn't covered by the club insurance which could cause problems for the other members if he's involved in an accident.

That way, it makes it clear he'll be publicly embarrassed, plus the other members will also be a bit annoyed.


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## ColinJ (8 Sep 2019)

I'd go straight to 'Plan C' - the 'nuclear option', and give him this treatment ...


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## Spoked Wheels (8 Sep 2019)

There are a few in our club that haven't renewed their membership. ... it doesn't bother me nor the other guys.... but they don't make a secret of that.... think of it, if they didn't volunteer the information I have no way of knowing who is a paying member and who is not.


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## fossyant (8 Sep 2019)

Wait till you see folk riding in club kit that were never in your club.


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## mjr (8 Sep 2019)

Sharky said:


> +
> To give something back to the sport


It's travel, not a sport!


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## Sharky (8 Sep 2019)

mjr said:


> It's travel, not a sport!


True, but if you are gate crashing a club run, then more likely sport.


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## mjr (8 Sep 2019)

ianrauk said:


> You may not be able to stop him riding on public roads but you can stop him from riding with your group.
> 
> We've had similar with the Friday Night Rides. People turning up without paying their subs or registering. I explained it was club policy not to allow people who haven't paid their dues that they couldn't ride within the group.
> They can either hang back on their own or leave.


If they refused to hang back, how could you stop them riding with the group? Excluding assault or obstruction or other illegality.


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## ColinJ (8 Sep 2019)

mjr said:


> If they refused to hang back, how could you stop them riding with the group? Excluding assault or obstruction or other illegality.


Stop riding and stand at the side of the road until he gets bored?


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## Edwardoka (8 Sep 2019)

mjr said:


> If they refused to hang back, how could you stop them riding with the group? Excluding assault or obstruction or other illegality.


A coordinated group could drop him with repeated surges but all that'd do is make him stronger...


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## Ming the Merciless (8 Sep 2019)

Sharky said:


> True, but if you are gate crashing a club run, then more likely sport.



Nah club runs are not sport. More like the ramblers on two wheels.


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## winjim (9 Sep 2019)

mjr said:


> If they refused to hang back, how could you stop them riding with the group? Excluding assault or obstruction or other illegality.


Calthrops.










(Sorry, I've been up early with the baby watching a thing about ninjas. I in no way condone the use of calthrops against cyclists, club members or otherwise.)


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## Venod (9 Sep 2019)

If its the rules, he should join, maybe he has a lot of friends in the club but doesn't like the politics and rules involved, we have solved this round here, the club I was in got a bit officious in mine and a lot of other riders opinions, so there are now local rides organised through Facebook or Strava which are supported by members from several clubs and people who for one reason or another don't want to join one, they are a lot more pleasant without all the red tape and a lot more colourfull.


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## mjr (9 Sep 2019)

Flying Dodo said:


> I'd have a quiet word with him and give him an ultimatum - either he pays up or if he refuses, mention that the next ride he turns up for, you'll be making a public announcement. This would highlight the fact that he keeps on turning up on rides but is refusing to pay his membership, and so isn't covered by the club insurance which could cause problems for the other members if he's involved in an accident.


Club insurance normally covers only the leaders and only if they follow the provider's handbook which I've only ever seen one do. Riders have to get their own liability insurance, whether household, bike or through club affiliation membership of HSBC UK BC or Cuk. Again, I've only seen one club (Fnrttc) even try to check that, asdiscussed in past threads.


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## phillip scott (10 Sep 2019)

Well I asked the person in question & it turned out that it was a bit of a rant at the establishment as they were not happy regarding the running of the club. I suggested they raise the concerns at the club meeting and even join the committee as previously asked but again they declined. I actually feel they are being a little unfair but everyone views things differently I guess.


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## DCLane (11 Sep 2019)

phillip scott said:


> Well I asked the person in question & it turned out that it was a bit of a rant at the establishment as they were not happy regarding the running of the club. I suggested they raise the concerns at the club meeting and even join the committee as previously asked but again they declined. I actually feel they are being a little unfair but everyone views things differently I guess.



OK then. So if they don't like the club AND won't help turn it around my view would be they can shove off and ride on their own.


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## Kempstonian (11 Sep 2019)

DCLane said:


> OK then. So if they don't like the club AND won't help turn it around my view would be they can shove off and ride on their own.


That's exactly what would have happened with the club I was in. If he's that bothered about how the club is run he should go and join another club - or start his own.


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## screenman (11 Sep 2019)

One of the most helpful guys at our club events did not belong to it, for over 50 years he helped out and joined in on most rides, his wife was a member but he was a member of another local club.


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## mjr (11 Sep 2019)

DCLane said:


> OK then. So if they don't like the club AND won't help turn it around my view would be they can shove off and ride on their own.


Again the simple question: shoving them off would be assault so how exactly are you gonna make them ride on their own?


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## screenman (11 Sep 2019)

It is sad that we have to have them and us in cycling.


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## Rusty Nails (11 Sep 2019)

screenman said:


> It is sad that we have to have them and us in cycling.



It is sad. But unfortunately cycling is no different to other specialist activities. Cliques form due to all sorts of spurious reasons.


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## DCLane (11 Sep 2019)

mjr said:


> Again the simple question: shoving them off would be assault so how exactly are you gonna make them ride on their own?



'telling them to shove off' _isn't_ actually physical contact. 

There's ways of being appropriate/not unpleasant and effective verbally.


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## screenman (11 Sep 2019)

A club ride is a bunch of cyclist going for a ride I just cannot see the reason to exclude somebody. Maybe it is just my old fashioned way of thinking, I sure can remember non member cyclist on club runs back in the sixties.


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## mjr (11 Sep 2019)

DCLane said:


> There's ways of being appropriate/not unpleasant and effective verbally.


Which strangely cannot be committed to words in a post on this forum?


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## Venod (11 Sep 2019)

screenman said:


> A club ride is a bunch of cyclist going for a ride I just cannot see the reason to exclude somebody. Maybe it is just my old fashioned way of thinking, I sure can remember non member cyclist on club runs back in the sixties.



I agree about club rides in the past, you would get a mix of riders not all club members, where it changed I think is the insurance requirements and abiding by BCF rules, I am relating this to my last club who were very officious about this, spoiling a good club IMO.
I understand the concerns of the ride organises regarding this but I find it a bit draconian and not what I want my cycling to be about.


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## mustang1 (12 Sep 2019)

Give all the paying members a large note to put on their club jersies with the name of the non payer saying "this guy is not a club member".


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## straas (12 Sep 2019)

Don't think I'd be overly bothered - but if everyone took the same attitude the club wouldn't function, so it seems quite selfish really.

Most clubs let you ride a few times before joining, if you actively don't want to pay after that, then set up your own club or ride solo.

It'd be like setting up a street party, and one house refusing to do anything to contribute, but then attending, eating the shared food and drink, then going home without helping to clear up.


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## mjr (12 Sep 2019)

straas said:


> Don't think I'd be overly bothered - but if everyone took the same attitude the club wouldn't function, so it seems quite selfish really.
> 
> Most clubs let you ride a few times before joining, if you actively don't want to pay after that, then set up your own club or ride solo.


Again, how exactly are you going to make anyone ride solo?



straas said:


> It'd be like setting up a street party, and one house refusing to do anything to contribute, but then attending, eating the shared food and drink, then going home without helping to clear up.


Ironically, that street party case would be an example of the so-called "free-rider problem".

However, a cycling club is typically also not paying extra towards the shared food and drink - the public highways - but only stuff that benefits the club members - such as ride leader insurance. If riding on roads that also have non-member riders on them is against the terms of ride leader insurance, well... that would be pretty bizarre and limiting, eh?


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## cyberknight (12 Sep 2019)

Interesting discussion about club insurance,I am pushing for mine to start having a membership for these reasons and currently awaiting for the committee to decide.I think ride leaders should be on the committee personally but that's another story.


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## SpokeyDokey (12 Sep 2019)

steveindenmark said:


> I think there are some unreasonably reasonable people in here.
> 
> You pay subs to our local village bike club. For the subs the rides are organised. Someone usually provide coffee and cake or the occasional BBQ. If you don't pay the subs, just because you dont want to. After a couple of polite hints you would be told you are not welcome.
> 
> *I don't understand the mentality that that you expect something for nothing when everyone pays for it.*



I think a lot depends on affordability.

Using a non-cycling analogy we have a couple of community facilities in the village that need maintaining and are used by everyone. On a good day we'll get around 50% of the village contributing whenever funds are needed.

There are a couple of families who we know are strapped for cash so they get an automatic bye. 

The other non-contributors we just grin & bear it as, unfortunately, that's what some people are like and it's pointless getting het up about it. 

On the other hand if they ever need any collective help to do something they do seem to get very few volunteers to assist them.


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## Venod (12 Sep 2019)

cyberknight said:


> Interesting discussion about club insurance,I am pushing for mine to start having a membership for these reasons



The insurance caused problems in my old club, they ran a Facebook page to arrange rides etc, the club ran Saturday club rides for different abilities different courses on a four week rotation, not everybody liked doing the same courses on a regular basis, so some members also posted alternative rides on the Facebook page, non members often rode these much better alternatives but because they were posted on the clubs Facebook page the powers that be said that only club members should ride, they cited some insurance problem for this decision, they stopped the posting of the alternative rides, result, a lot of members left and now rides are still organised through Facebook and Strava as a bunch of mates going for a ride, without all the politics of a club, a much better scenario IMO.


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## straas (12 Sep 2019)

But why do it? Include yourself in a club but refuse to contribute to it?


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## straas (12 Sep 2019)

mjr said:


> Again, how exactly are you going to make anyone ride solo?



You couldn't force someone, in the same way you couldn't stop someone joining your table in the pub. It'd just be a bit odd.


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## pawl (12 Sep 2019)

When I first started cycling I belonged to the local CTC section.On odd occasion a few of us would join the local racing clubs runs.We were always welcome as the club new they could rely on us to provide marshals for their open events and provide members to assist the after event refreshments.

We were always welcome at the end of season dinner. Perhaps there is more of a division between the social and more sporting side


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## steveindenmark (12 Sep 2019)

SpokeyDokey said:


> I think a lot depends on affordability.
> 
> Using a non-cycling analogy we have a couple of community facilities in the village that need maintaining and are used by everyone. On a good day we'll get around 50% of the village contributing whenever funds are needed.
> 
> ...


This is not about affordability. He could afford it. He just did not want to pay.


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## SpokeyDokey (12 Sep 2019)

steveindenmark said:


> This is not about affordability. He could afford it. He just did not want to pay.



As per my post. 

PS: my post was not a dig at you it just portrays a similar set of circumstances.


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## PaulSB (12 Sep 2019)

cyberknight said:


> Interesting discussion about club insurance,I am pushing for mine to start having a membership for these reasons and currently awaiting for the committee to decide.I think ride leaders should be on the committee personally but that's another story.



Your post states you have ride leaders in which case you absolutely must have insurance to cover them in the event of an incident. I am not a legal eagle but this is my understanding of the situation.

If a bunch of friends meet at a certain time, decide on a cafe and ride there together no one individual is in a position of responsibility. Should something go wrong there is no comeback on an individual.

If a ride leader creates a route, choses a cafe, sets a date, time and meet point that person has created an event and invited others to attend. The individual may actually lead the ride by sitting on the front for the entire ride.

Under these circumstances the ride leader has become responsible for the safe running of the ride. If something goes wrong the leader is liable to third party claims. This is where club insurance comes in to play - to cover the leader and club.

We get our cover by virtue of being affiliated to British Cycling. We get other benefits as well, in particular membership management.

On the question of ride leaders as committee members. My club has a ride secretary who represents the leaders at committee meetings.


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## PaulSB (12 Sep 2019)

Venod said:


> The insurance caused problems in my old club, they ran a Facebook page to arrange rides etc, the club ran Saturday club rides for different abilities different courses on a four week rotation, not everybody liked doing the same courses on a regular basis, so some members also posted alternative rides on the Facebook page, non members often rode these much better alternatives but because they were posted on the clubs Facebook page the powers that be said that only club members should ride, they cited some insurance problem for this decision, they stopped the posting of the alternative rides, result, a lot of members left and now rides are still organised through Facebook and Strava as a bunch of mates going for a ride, without all the politics of a club, a much better scenario IMO.



The alternative rides issue is one my club had to address 3-4 years ago. Our chosen solution was members should not organise or advertise alternative rides which clash with official club rides.

The outcome is we have a healthy balance of rides, both official and alternative, which take place 7 days a week with start times ranging from 5.00am to 9.30am plus two evening sessions starting at 6.15. There are no clashes but lots of opportunities to ride.

The downside is some official rides attract small numbers but on the upside we have members able to chose from and riding a significant number of routes every week.


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## mjr (12 Sep 2019)

PaulSB said:


> If a ride leader creates a route, choses a cafe, sets a date, time and meet point that person has created an event and invited others to attend. The individual may actually lead the ride by sitting on the front for the entire ride.
> 
> Under these circumstances the ride leader has become responsible for the safe running of the ride. If something goes wrong the leader is liable to third party claims. This is where club insurance comes in to play - to cover the leader and club.


I think that's basically it. It's also worth remembering that if a ride is not led then it must really be not led. Sitting on the front all ride and dictating pacing and stops and so on will make it seem more like a led ride, but so would turning up at the start point and pulling rank somehow to follow a route suggested beforehand over the objections of some. Shepherding or snaking across junctions will make it seem more like a led ride. And so on. Then if an incident occurs and a claim goes in, I expect the courts would consider it a led ride and the leader may also be liable for, say, saying "clear" when it was not.



PaulSB said:


> We get our cover by virtue of being affiliated to British Cycling. We get other benefits as well, in particular membership management.


British Cycling useful documents: https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/clubs/article/20140530-Useful-Documents-for-clubs-0

Cycling UK handbook: https://www.cyclinguk.org/sites/def...fo/cycling_uk_ride_leader_handbook_2016_0.pdf

I leave it as an exercise for readers to see if they can tell if their clubs' so-called club rides actually follow the requirements of their affiliating organisation, especially the detail required for risk assessments and rider briefing, but I think most of you will be disappointed.


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## PaulSB (12 Sep 2019)

mjr said:


> I think that's basically it. It's also worth remembering that if a ride is not led then it must really be not led. Sitting on the front all ride and dictating pacing and stops and so on will make it seem more like a led ride, but so would turning up at the start point and pulling rank somehow to follow a route suggested beforehand over the objections of some. Shepherding or snaking across junctions will make it seem more like a led ride. And so on. Then if an incident occurs and a claim goes in, I expect the courts would consider it a led ride and the leader may also be liable for, say, saying "clear" when it was not.
> 
> 
> British Cycling useful documents: https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/clubs/article/20140530-Useful-Documents-for-clubs-0
> ...



I'm pleased to say my club complies with all the BC guidelines for a club style ride on the public highway. I suppose we could have a couple of grey areas.

Our rides are posted as Facebook Events. We have a standard template on FB and a website statement informing members the equipment they must carry on a ride to deal with emergencies. It's not announced at the start of each ride.

Two years ago I issued everyone with a foil survival blanket. I doubt they still, if ever, carry them. I still carry one and have needed it on two occasions.

Although it's not mentioned in the BC guidelines emergency contact details are an essential item and sadly one we haven't been able to solve.


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## cyberknight (12 Sep 2019)

its a led ride i plan route , pace and stops and is advertised via our facebook event and whatsapp pages


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (12 Sep 2019)

Takes a lot of folk in my club upwards of 5-6 months to actually join every year, they're obviously not members of Cycling Ireland either so no insurance etc. I rarely join runs but am quite picky as to who I invite out on any I do.

Massive gripe I have yet it's let slip.. Probably until the point where there's a mass/expensive smash and the committee have to act


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## PaulSB (12 Sep 2019)

cyberknight said:


> its a led ride i plan route , pace and stops and is advertised via our facebook event and whatsapp pages



My view is this requires insurance to cover you, the club and possibly third party liability.


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## Sharky (12 Sep 2019)

I have insurance via the CTC and have used their services to make a claim. Might also have cover via my household insurance, but I've not read the policy properly.

But there must be thousands of children, mum's & dads, casual cyclists etc, riding around without specific cycling insurance and could all be the cause of an accident. So does it really matter if the non club member doesn't have insurance? If he loses a claim against him, then he will lose his life savings or his house - do we care?


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## swansonj (12 Sep 2019)

So, as that now seems to be what we are discussing, can I ask, how often is ride leader insurance called upon in practice? Is being sued a relatively common occurrence, or a theoretical possibility only?


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (12 Sep 2019)

Sharky said:


> I have insurance via the CTC and have used their services to make a claim. Might also have cover via my household insurance, but I've not read the policy properly.
> 
> But there must be thousands of children, mum's & dads, casual cyclists etc, riding around without specific cycling insurance and could all be the cause of an accident. So does it really matter if the non club member doesn't have insurance? If he loses a claim against him, then he will lose his life savings or his house - do we care?


Random stranger mums and dads aren't riding inches from my back wheel, nor am I riding inches from theirs.


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## Dogtrousers (13 Sep 2019)

I've got it.

You draw lots and the loser engages the non payer in a conversation about chain lube or sprockets or tubeless tyres or something. While the non payer is deep in conversation, and possibly animated because the club member is making frankly outrageous claims about Finish Line Ceramic, everyone else buggers off as quickly and quietly as possible.


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## PaulSB (13 Sep 2019)

Sharky said:


> I have insurance via the CTC and have used their services to make a claim. Might also have cover via my household insurance, but I've not read the policy properly.
> 
> But there must be thousands of children, mum's & dads, casual cyclists etc, riding around without specific cycling insurance and could all be the cause of an accident. So does it really matter if the non club member doesn't have insurance? If he loses a claim against him, then he will lose his life savings or his house - do we care?



The point of club insurance is it covers the ride leader and the club. It does NOT cover those taking part in the ride. Therefore if a rider who does not comply with the insurance requirements is on the ride his/her presence may negate the cover. If an incident occurred the leader and club would not be covered due to the actions of another individual.

Individual riders are responsible for their own insurance. They are not covered by club insurance. 

Most of our members are BC members to take advantage of BC insurance.


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## PaulSB (13 Sep 2019)

swansonj said:


> So, as that now seems to be what we are discussing, can I ask, how often is ride leader insurance called upon in practice? Is being sued a relatively common occurrence, or a theoretical possibility only?



I've no idea but given the cost via BC club affiliation is negligible it's better to have than not. One aspect of insurance is one hopes never to use it.


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## cyberknight (13 Sep 2019)

PaulSB said:


> I've no idea but given the cost via BC club affiliation is negligible it's better to have than not. One aspect of insurance is one hopes never to use it.


£178
i think the club sec is coming around to my way of thinking


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## swansonj (14 Sep 2019)

PaulSB said:


> I've no idea but given the cost via BC club affiliation is negligible it's better to have than not. One aspect of insurance is one hopes never to use it.


Yes and no.

"Yes" in that if the cost of insurance is small and we can protect ourselves against a major expense, and especially if doing so brings us peace of mind, then why not do it, no matter how low the risk? I would not criticise any individual who took out insurance, for pretty much anything, but that doesn't mean it's the best thing for society as a whole.

"No" in that this feeling "I must have insurance just in case" is emblematic of several trends in our society which are by no means healthy or helpful. First, the feeling that we can protect ourselves against risk, usually by spending money, encourages us to believe that life and the decisions we make in it can be consequence-free, because we can always buy our way out of the consequences (I'm not going to mention Brexit ). That's obviously a delusion, and the more embedded that delusion becomes in a society, the less that society will tend to make responsible decisions. Second, the more we take out insurance against being sued, the more we indirectly reinforce the culture that suing is a normal and appropriate things to do, and I think most of us would say the culture of always looking for someone to sue or at least to blame has gone too far. Thirdly, whilst I stand by what I said about the right of anyone to protect themselves against a risk, no matter how small, there comes a point where the risk really is small and you have to ask whether it's worth it. There are plenty of risks that are so small we effectively ignore them in the way we organise our lives. But there's something about some risks that, as soon as someone has pointed it out, we feel we have to rush to take action, almost without stopping to assess it. Hence cycle helmets (second ); hence, possibly, ride leader insurance, because no-one has yet quantified how common being sued is.

Most rare things that happen in cycling, someone here will have a personal example: being hit by a car, various mechanical failures, attacked by dogs, most health conditions, you name it. So has anyone got an instance of a ride leader being sued?


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## PaulSB (14 Sep 2019)

I understand your "no" points and would, to an extent, agree. However in the topic under discussion we are looking to protect an individual who freely gives his/her time and experience to benefit others. It seems reasonable to offer the individual protection against unforseen events outside of his/her control. I don't believe any ride leader's behaviour would change by knowing the cover is there.

As for quantifiable examples I think you're asking a question 99.9% of people here or cyclists in general would struggle with. I certainly can't give you an answer. I suppose this could lead to a view the risk is talked up simply to sell the insurance. I've had house contents insurance for 38 years without a claim - should I stop? Of course not.

Out of interest I tried a few Google searches and found:


Surrey based MTB instructor sued for pushing a pupil too hard.
California group rider suing the entire ride over a crash.
Strava sued for encouraging a user to be over competitive and die while trying to regain a KOM.
A spin instructor sued
So nothing specific to ride leaders using a simple search.

Myself I have full cover for my bike at zero cost as it's house contents cover, BC cover for myself at £41pa and Lexham recovery at £15pa. Total cost of £56. I ride three times a week so this is 35p/ride to cover every eventuality.

It seems eminently sensible to me and something any cyclist should have. I don't believe it changes my behaviour on the bike or in life but does offer protection against those who do not know how to behave correctly.


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## screenman (14 Sep 2019)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Random stranger mums and dads aren't riding inches from my back wheel, nor am I riding inches from theirs.



Would an insurer pay out in those circumstances?


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## cyberknight (14 Sep 2019)

PaulSB said:


> I understand your "no" points and would, to an extent, agree. However in the topic under discussion we are looking to protect an individual who freely gives his/her time and experience to benefit others. It seems reasonable to offer the individual protection against unforseen events outside of his/her control. I don't believe any ride leader's behaviour would change by knowing the cover is there.
> 
> .


My thoughts exactly, unfortunately the world we live in you need to cover your backside just in case.


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## PaulSB (14 Sep 2019)

cyberknight said:


> £178
> i think the club sec is coming around to my way of thinking



As an aside our main reason for affiliating with BC was to take advantage of the membership management tools. You or your secretary may not be aware affiliated clubs can use BC to handle all membership payments. We now have 100% of our 198 members all paying online via BC. The reduction in workload for our Membership Sec is huge. Historically we accepted cash, cheque, PayPal, bank transfer but within 12 months successfully moved everyone online. If someone really can't handle this we will make an exception but it's very, very rare. We have one member, in his late 70s, who asks his son to do it for him.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (14 Sep 2019)

screenman said:


> Would an insurer pay out in those circumstances?


I have no idea


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## PK99 (14 Sep 2019)

A guy I used to ride with 10? years ago, had a few years previously had a £40k plus payment from the CTC insurance of a rider who caused a crash on a CTC ride. Broken hip and weeks off work.


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## screenman (14 Sep 2019)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> I have no idea



I do have an idea that they would not pay out.


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## Rusty Nails (14 Sep 2019)

Sh*t happens.

That's what insurance is for. Take it or leave it.


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## screenman (14 Sep 2019)

Rusty Nails said:


> Sh*t happens.
> 
> That's what insurance is for. Take it or leave it.



Insurance does not cover every situation.


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## swansonj (14 Sep 2019)

Rusty Nails said:


> Sh*t happens.
> 
> That's what insurance is for. Take it or leave it.


Well, yes, that's one of the things that insurance is for. Another thing, of course, that insurance is for is to make money for insurance companies.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (14 Sep 2019)

screenman said:


> I do have an idea that they would not pay out.


Likely, at the very least try to get out of it


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## screenman (14 Sep 2019)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Likely, at the very least try to get out of it



Can you blame them, inches from the bike in front and behind.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (14 Sep 2019)

screenman said:


> Can you blame them, inches from the bike in front and behind.


Suppose not


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## Rusty Nails (14 Sep 2019)

screenman said:


> Insurance does not cover every situation.





swansonj said:


> Well, yes, that's one of the things that insurance is for. Another thing, of course, that insurance is for is to make money for insurance companies.




As I said, take it or leave it.


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## swansonj (15 Sep 2019)

Rusty Nails said:


> As I said, take it or leave it.


Indeed, and as I've said upthread, I'm not in the business of criticising anyone / any club who decides that the peace of mind is worth paying the premium.

But the PPI saga pretty conclusively demonstrates that the mere fact that the insurance industry offers a product and someone suggests it might be a good idea (let alone essential) to get it, does NOT mean that we should just unquestioningly buy into that. Hence my question about what the risk actually is.


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## DRM (22 Sep 2019)

So I understand the bit about insurance, after all in this day & age you have to cover your back, how would a club get on with someone asking to tag on for a while, during a ride, as I ended up doing last Sunday as I was keeping pace with them, the answer was yes no problem, but they didn’t know if I’m covered or not, wether or not I’ve a clue what I’m doing, which as a BC member I am covered, but any clot could tag along, cause an accident then where would they stand, just wondering mind you.


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## DCLane (22 Sep 2019)

DRM said:


> So I understand the bit about insurance, after all in this day & age you have to cover your back, how would a club get on with someone asking to tag on for a while, during a ride, as I ended up doing last Sunday as I was keeping pace with them, the answer was yes no problem, but they didn’t know if I’m covered or not, wether or not I’ve a clue what I’m doing, which as a BC member I am covered, but any clot could tag along, cause an accident then where would they stand, just wondering mind you.



Technically under BC they're covered as a club's insurance covers a guest for up to 5 rides. The issue is when a rider is continually joining rather than as a one-off.


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## mjr (23 Sep 2019)

DCLane said:


> Technically under BC they're covered as a club's insurance covers a guest for up to 5 rides. The issue is when a rider is continually joining rather than as a one-off.


Which is probably part of why ride leader insurance I've seen says you have to make riders sign in. Almost no clubs do that, so could not prove that the "guest" wasn't a regular rider, so the insurance could duck it for that reason, as well as for the leader apparently not following the terms and requiring signing in.


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## DRM (23 Sep 2019)

DCLane said:


> Technically under BC they're covered as a club's insurance covers a guest for up to 5 rides. The issue is when a rider is continually joining rather than as a one-off.


That is what I suspected, but as mjr wrote,


mjr said:


> Which is probably part of why ride leader insurance I've seen says you have to make riders sign in. Almost no clubs do that, so could not prove that the "guest" wasn't a regular rider, so the insurance could duck it for that reason, as well as for the leader apparently not following the terms and requiring signing in.


It’s a bit of a grey area, however I do think it’s damn cheek to turn up every week & join in the full distance when you haven’t paid the subs, it’s not something I would be comfortable doing.


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## cyberknight (24 Sep 2019)

On a further note i raised to the club founder last week that we need to concentrate on helping people to ride in groups more, his wife has been bought down by a new rider, i had one get his drops under my elbow last week and another experienced rider was out with his son and had a touch of wheels and broke his collarbone.
Of course nothing can prevent an accident but being better prepared all helps.


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## Big T (26 Nov 2019)

Best practice guidelines from BC for led club rides:

Club/Group Ride/Training Session – on the public highway Best practice is.....
􏰀Have a predetermined start time and communicate the route to all participants.
􏰀All participants should comply with the Highway Code.
􏰀All adult participants are responsible for their own well-being during the ride and should be prepared for situations such as adverse weather conditions, mechanical problems and flat tyres.
􏰀Have emergency procedures and communicate them to all participants. This should include emergency procedures for incidents that riders may experience during a ride (eg punctures, mechanical problems, changes in environmental conditions, accidents involving one or more members of the group).
􏰀Have procedures in place to ensure that individual riders are not left on their own during the session.
􏰀All riders should be aged 12 years or older, and be competent at a level equivalent to the Level 2 Cycle Training Standards.
􏰀There is a greater duty of care for riders under the age of 18 years. Therefore, if there are riders aged 12-18 years in the group, somebody will need to take responsibility for these riders and ensure they are not left on their own during the session.
􏰀Have a signed parental consent form for all riders under the age of 18 years.
􏰀All riders should be encouraged to take part in activities that are within their capabilities.
􏰀All riders must wear a helmet.

You don’t have to do risk assessments for rides held on the public highways. It would not be practical or reasonable to do this, as you would have to pre-ride or drive the whole route of the ride on the day of the ride itself, noting any hazards. Even then, a hazard could crop up between the pre-ride and the actual ride itself. Nor do you have to “sign in” for rides on the road, that is only for coaching sessions in an enclosed off-road environment.


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## mjr (27 Nov 2019)

Big T said:


> Best practice guidelines from BC for led club rides:


Where's that from, please? It doesn't say anything about how to stop people riding with a group, does it?


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## Blue Hills (27 Nov 2019)

ColinJ said:


> Stop riding and stand at the side of the road until he gets bored?


Visions of a high noon standoff a damp tod with some blasting Morricone.
Suppose the rider is taking the p but some club subs do strike me as odd/high. Memory may be faulty but i know a northern club (am there sometimes) which has a memb fee pushing £30. Never been sure where it goes. Meetings can be held in a pub. 
I used to lead lots of free rides for a london group - all were welcomed.


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## Big T (27 Nov 2019)

Mjr, I just followed your previously posted link to the BC website, and dug a bit further:

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/zuvvi/media/bc_files/membership/BEST_PRACTICE_GUIDELINES.pdf

There are several best practice guidelines but the one I posted is the one for road rides. They are a bit more involved for off-road sessions as you generally have more control over the environment and location.

No, it does say anything about preventing non-members riding with the group, as far as I can see. This is a problem we have in my club. 2 well off people who insist on turning up most weeks to ride with us, but won’t pay the £15 to join the club. One is a senior civil servant earning at least £70,000 per year. The other is a self employed carpenter who has just spent £5000 on a brand new Trek road bike, so they can both afford it.


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## DCLane (27 Nov 2019)

Big T said:


> This is a problem we have in my club. 2 well off people who insist on turning up most weeks to ride with us, but won’t pay the £15 to join the club. One is a senior civil servant earning at least £70,000 per year. The other is a self employed carpenter who has just spent £5000 on a brand new Trek road bike, so they can both afford it.



The ride leader should be speaking with them.

My club's issued an official message to ex-members who've not renewed and included a couple of turn-up'ers that they're no longer members and therefore not covered on the club insurance so please don't come to a group ride. If they do then the rider leader has permission to ask them to leave. It seems to have worked.

Basically your two non-joiners are being a pain. And they know they are.


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## Big T (27 Nov 2019)

We’ve tried this, but it is water off a ducks back to them. They may disappear for a few weeks but they will be back. There may be others whose membership has lapsed but these two are quite upfront and even proud of being non-paying participants. We even poke fun at them at the cafe, but they just don’t seem to care.


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## PaulSB (27 Nov 2019)

Big T said:


> Mjr, I just followed your previously posted link to the BC website, and dug a bit further:
> 
> https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/zuvvi/media/bc_files/membership/BEST_PRACTICE_GUIDELINES.pdf
> 
> ...



I'm a club secretary and I'm unsure the Best Practice Guidelines are relevant. Following BPG is advised to ensure the club insurance is valid. My club is affiliated to BC and so benefits from BC Club Insurance and I'm presuming yours is also affiliated. The relevant point regarding members who refuse to renew is they are not covered by the BC Club Insurance and there is a question as to whether or not the club, its' officials, rider leaders are covered if ex-members persist in riding with the group. There is of course nothing one can do to stop these individuals occupying the same road space, it's a free country. I think the solution, which isn't a pleasant one, is to tell them clearly in front of witnesses they are not allowed to participate in the ride/activity as they are not club members due to not paying their subs. If they chose to ride in the group in the event of an incident leading to a claim you have witnesses to prove these ex-members were warned off.

I can't provide the link as it's not public but here is the relevant info from the BC insurance Q&A. Note the word "invited"

*Our club has several people who regularly go on our club run but have not joined our club. Are they covered by the club insurance as invitees?*
No. Only those who are invited to take part in club activities with a genuine view to joining the club and who are not already covered by any other insurance are covered by the club’s insurance. A ‘genuine view to joining’ means they may attend one or two club activities before joining the club.


*Who is covered by the club insurance?*

the club;
officials of the club who are acting on the club’s specific instructions; and
individuals (non-club members) who have been invited to participate in club activities as invitees with a view to joining the club and are not already covered by any other insurance.
At committee level we have a discussion going on about the requirement to use a helmet. BPG says all riders must wear helmets. Everyone in our club does but our own club guidelines only advise it rather than require it.


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## Big T (27 Nov 2019)

paul sB - I note in your reply

Who is covered by the club insurance?

the club;
officials of the club who are acting on the club’s specific instructions; and
individuals (non-club members) who have been invited to participate in club activities as invitees with a view to joining the club and are not already covered by any other insurance.
So it looks as though ordinary club members (who aren’t officials) on a ride, aren’t covered by the insurance anyway? So no difference between them and non-members, neither are covered by BCs club insurance.

I’m also a club secretary of a BC affiliated club (and a ride leader) so this is of great interest to me.


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## PaulSB (27 Nov 2019)

@Big T as a club sec I would expect you have access to the BC Club management tool? If so if you go to this area you should be able to find all the relevant information re BC Club Insurance in the Q&A.

It's always difficult to word this accurately. Individual club members are not personally covered by the club insurance and should have their own insurance cover which covers them as an individual - for example the cover which comes as part of having an individual BC membership.

In regard to this topic with regard to members bring covered or not I'm talking about the club. In this sense if a paid up member or invited person creates an incident or in some way is involved in an incident which leads to action being taken against the club or activity organiser (ride leader) then the insurance covers the actions of that member and protects the club and leader. In this circumstance it does not protect the individual who caused or created the incident.

If ex members are riding on a club ride they are not covered in the sense if they cause an incident which leads to action against the club or leader the cover would be invalid.

You should not let these people ride with you without publicsly warning them off. To do so risks invalidating the BC cover for the club and ride leaders


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## Big T (27 Nov 2019)

I’ve looked at the Q&A and can’t see anything that backs up what you have said. I.e. that the clubs insurance would be invalid if you let non-members ride with the club. I can’t see how warning them off makes any difference.

perhaps the answer is to ask BC themselves.


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## Randomnerd (27 Nov 2019)

Timed and dated video recording of their next appearance. Capture telling them they're not in your club. You're covered for insurance. Beyond organising a knee-capping, there's not much more you can do to prevent them riding the roads. Maybe you could all have a whip-round and buy them memberships for Christmas, to shame them?


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## PaulSB (28 Nov 2019)

Big T said:


> I’ve looked at the Q&A and can’t see anything that backs up what you have said. I.e. that the clubs insurance would be invalid if you let non-members ride with the club. I can’t see how warning them off makes any difference.
> 
> perhaps the answer is to ask BC themselves.



Please don't feel I'm trying to prove a point, far from it merely trying to answer the question and contribute to the thread. I feel the Q&A clearly states what and who is covered and therefore by allowing non-members to ride with the club there is a risk the insurance could be invalid. This would be especially so if a non-member or ex-member, other than an invitee as defined by BC, caused an incident which resulted in action against the club or an activity organiser. It is by exclusion that it becomes clear the ex-members you describe are not covered - a bit like car insurance where there is usually a statement of what is covered and therefore by exclusion every other eventuality is not covered. Every club I have known has a "five rides" rule and then one must join, this I feel is to comply with BC cover or lack of it.

*Are individuals participating in club activities insured by the club’s insurance?*
No. All individual participants are strongly advised to become a Race Gold, Race Silver or Ride member of British Cycling which provides the benefit of individual third party (public) liability insurance. Contingent insurance cover is, however, provided to invitees who have been invited to participate in club activities with a genuine view to joining the club and are not already covered by any other insurance.



*Who is covered?*
1 The club against claims brought by non-members and invitees.
2 Officials of the club who act on the club's specific instructions during their term of office, against claims, as follows:
(a) Actions brought by non-members who have been invited (prior to possible membership) to take part in the Club's activities, for example, club runs, social activities etc., for injuries sustained and damage to third party property, sustained during participation.


I should add as a club we have had to deal with this very issue. I sympathise as it is very difficult especially when a ride leader may simply being doing this to help out and the non paying member turns up. The ride leader can hardly be expected to know the guy has not paid, the consequences of this or to call him out. One instance we had the non-payer turned up on a brand new bike the same week he bounced a £15 cheque on us!!!! Following that he was given a written warning to stay away which he did for 18 months. He then rejoined, paid his subs and no one has ever mentioned the previous issue.


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