# Throttle



## Biker man (5 Feb 2022)

I understand that Wisper ebikes are fitting a throttle to there new ebikes .That will reach 15 and half miles per hour ,hope all makes follow suit.


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## ebikeerwidnes (5 Feb 2022)

Unfortunately that makes them illegal to ride on the roads and stuff

I used to have one on my pre2016 ebike - but that was also only 180W - but it was nice to have at time but I rarely used it


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## Biker man (5 Feb 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> Unfortunately that makes them illegal to ride on the roads and stuff
> 
> I used to have one on my pre2016 ebike - but that was also only 180W - but it was nice to have at time but I rarely used it


They say up to fifteen and a half is legal.


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## midlife (5 Feb 2022)

Twist and go throttles can only go to 6kph, after that it's back to peddling.... AFAIK


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## Biker man (5 Feb 2022)

midlife said:


> Twist and go throttles can only go to 6kph, after that it's back to peddling.... AFAIK


Well I got a email off them saying that they were .


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## ebikeerwidnes (5 Feb 2022)

This site goes into detail and give some links as to the details

but no - throttle not allowed - only 'walk assists' up to 6 mph - and that is mostly rubbish


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## steveindenmark (5 Feb 2022)

I had one on mine in Denmark. I almost never used it and when I did, it ate the battery power.


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## the snail (5 Feb 2022)

midlife said:


> Twist and go throttles can only go to 6kph, after that it's back to peddling.... AFAIK


It won't be twist and go, you'll have to pedal to activate the throttle in order to comply with the regs.


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## Biker man (5 Feb 2022)

I got a email from saying there new ebikes will be fitted capable of reaching fifteen and a half mph not before time in my opinion.


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## ebikeerwidnes (5 Feb 2022)

Can you ask them about the legality??
I have heard they sometimes have a different take on it that others
e.g. I think they are the ones who reckon the cutoff has a 10% leeway - which other don;t say 
but my Bosch does seem to cut out a bit higher than 15.5 mph (although if anyone asks I didn;t say that!!!!!)


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## Biker man (5 Feb 2022)

I would love one on my bike just a handy tool if you needed it now and again.


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## ebikeerwidnes (5 Feb 2022)

My old pre 2016 ebike throttle 

the main reason i miss it is going up steps on dusty tracks - I used to either use it to either run up the soil on the side of the steps
or sometime generate a slight wheelie of the bike to get up the step while I walked alongside

getting my current ebike up steep steps is a right pain!!


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## classic33 (5 Feb 2022)

_"The bike has to be taken to an MoT centre that's qualified to do the work, it is then tested over about 40 minutes to ensure that it is a road legal EPAC or EAPC now in the UK (Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycle) conforming to EAPC regs. The bike is then Type Approved and awarded a 250W LPM certificate. The bike can then have its twist grip assistance/walk along regulator opened up from 3.7mph to 15.5mph.

Although the bike is then Type Approved there is no need for an annal MOT test."_


https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/law-change.42796/#post-642626


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## CXRAndy (6 Feb 2022)

I removed mine, I needed the handlebar space for light switch function.

Its good to see those who do need a bit more assistance when the body is struggling. 

Thumb throttle 👏👏


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## ebikeerwidnes (6 Feb 2022)

To change the subject slightly - I would approve of a change to allow a throttle on a legal ebike for people who would otherwise probably use a mobility scooter - like a transition arrangement.
Probably unenforceable and just complicates an already complicated are
so not worth looking at but anyway


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## youngoldbloke (6 Feb 2022)

Does having a throttle mean you can more or less dispense with pedalling? Actually given the weight of their bikes I'd need a throttle just to push one around.


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## Biker man (6 Feb 2022)

youngoldbloke said:


> Does having a throttle mean you can more or less dispense with pedalling? Actually given the weight of their bikes I'd need a throttle just to push one around.


In theory yes but it would drain the battery very fast .


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## ebikeerwidnes (6 Feb 2022)

WIth my old ebike the main problem with the throttle was that it seemed to work on a low torque setting somehow so the acceleration was VERY slow - and the slightest hill defeated it
I was better off slowly turning the pedals enought to fool the system into thinking the motor should start helping
The same pedalling works with our folder witha hub motor when it is at max assist.


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## CXRAndy (6 Feb 2022)

youngoldbloke said:


> Does having a throttle mean you can more or less dispense with pedalling? Actually given the weight of their bikes I'd need a throttle just to push one around.


If you want to, as others have said, battery is depleted very quickly. 

They do have a benefit if you're not so fit or have physical condition which prevents sustainable pedalling.


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## Biker man (6 Feb 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> Intesting
> 
> 
> ebikeerwidnes said:
> ...


Thats interesting I was talking to a chap,who had fitted one of them illegal motors and a throttle ,he couldn't only do a few miles without it flattering t the battery not worth it.


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## classic33 (6 Feb 2022)

And, _"if you get a type approval, it essentially registers the vehicle as a motorbike subjecting it to *tax, registration and insurance requirements* but if you do a single vehicle approval, it allows you to continue as if it were a regular pedelec but makes using a full twist and go throttle (without pedalling) legal?"_


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## Biker man (6 Feb 2022)

Thanks for the info.


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## classic33 (9 Feb 2022)

Biker man said:


> Thats interesting I was talking to a chap,who had fitted one of them illegal motors and a throttle ,he couldn't only do a few miles* without it flattering t the battery *not worth it.


Doesn't flattery get you everywhere?
If so, isn't it worth it?


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## Biker man (10 Feb 2022)

classic33 said:


> Doesn't flattery get you everywhere?
> If so, isn't it worth it?


😏


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## Ming the Merciless (10 Feb 2022)

youngoldbloke said:


> Does having a throttle mean you can more or less dispense with pedalling? Actually given the weight of their bikes I'd need a throttle just to push one around.



Means you can dispense with riding as it’s no longer an ebike.


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## fossyant (10 Feb 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Means you can dispense with riding as it’s no longer an ebike.



Basically an electric moped ! MOT, Insurance and VED time !


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## Ming the Merciless (10 Feb 2022)

fossyant said:


> Basically an electric moped ! MOT, Insurance and VED time !



Yep


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## fossyant (10 Feb 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Yep



Also add in, most cheap electric bikes have pretty poor components. Couldn't imagine one being propelled at 30 mph without pedaling, death machines - like stopping a super tanker.


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## classic33 (10 Feb 2022)

fossyant said:


> Basically an electric moped ! MOT, Insurance and VED time !


Electric motorbike under the Motorcycle Single Vehicle Approval system that is being used by them.
Buy the bike new from them, they'll take care of everything for £200, but cannot guarantee the test result. You can take it to an MOT station that can deal with electric bikes, but where are they?


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## Biker man (10 Feb 2022)

fossyant said:


> fossyant said:
> 
> 
> > Also add in, most cheap electric bikes have pretty poor components. Couldn't imagine one being propelled at 30 mph without pedaling, death machines - like stopping a super tanker.
> ...





classic33 said:


> Electric motorbike under the Motorcycle Single Vehicle Approval system that is being used by them.
> Buy the bike new from them, they'll take care of everything for £200, but cannot guarantee the test result. You can take it to an MOT station that can deal with electric bikes, but where are they?


Having a throttle governed to 15/half miles a hour is not a moped .


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## classic33 (10 Feb 2022)

Biker man said:


> Having a throttle governed to 15/half miles a hour is not a moped .


It'll be classed as an electric motorcycle if it passes the MVSA, which is the test it will be tested under.

Make your choice carefully. The test has a no return policy on tests that are booked and paid for. I'd a fight to get the money back from a test station that said they could do the relevant test, only to be told they couldn't when I rolled in to the test centre.


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## fossyant (10 Feb 2022)

Biker man said:


> Having a throttle governed to 15/half miles a hour is not a moped .



It is according to the law.


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## figbat (10 Feb 2022)

Biker man said:


> Having a throttle governed to 15/half miles a hour is not a moped .


What is it then? It isn't a pedal-assist bicycle so can't be used in public as such. It isn't a moped (unless subject to SVA) so, again, can't be used in on public roads. So it is either an ornament or a plaything for use on private land with the land-owner's permission. Or, perhaps more likely, it is a device that will be used illegally regardless of any formal categorisation it falls under.


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## fossyant (10 Feb 2022)

The rules for riding an ebike in the UK and Europe are these: the bike must have a motor with a maximum power of 250Wh, it must be pedal-assist only — a throttle is only allowed for speeds up to a walking pace. The motor must stop assisting when you get over 15.5mph (that’s 25 km/h). You can pedal your bike as fast as you like under your own steam, of course.


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## Biker man (10 Feb 2022)

figbat said:


> What is it then? It isn't a pedal-assist bicycle so can't be used in public as such. It isn't a moped (unless subject to SVA) so, again, can't be used in on public roads. So it is either an ornament or a plaything for use on private land with the land-owner's permission. Or, perhaps more likely, it is a device that will be used illegally regardless of any formal categorisation it falls under.


Dont shoot the messenger it's what I was told.


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## fossyant (10 Feb 2022)

Biker man said:


> Dont shoot the messenger it's what I was told.



They were telling 'fibs' then !


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## Biker man (10 Feb 2022)

fossyant said:


> They were telling 'fibs' then !


Don't think so time will tell.


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## fossyant (10 Feb 2022)

Biker man said:


> Don't think so time will tell.



Well, they aren't legal to use in UK and Europe. PS messengers usually get shot in films !


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## classic33 (10 Feb 2022)

Biker man said:


> Don't think so time will tell.


They'll send your bike bought from them, at cost to you, for an MSVA. The outcome of that test decides what happens, and whether they're allowed to install a throttle.
They'll only be allowed to install the throttle if it passes the MVSA, which means it will be classed as a motorcycle from then on.


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## figbat (10 Feb 2022)

classic33 said:


> They'll send your bike bought from them, at cost to you, for an MSVA. The outcome of that test decides what happens, and whether they're allowed to install a throttle.
> They'll only be allowed to install the throttle if it passes the MVSA, which means it will be classed as a motorcycle from then on.


Meaning not only insurance, VED, MoT and licence requirements but you can only ride on roads and byways and you have to wear a motorcycle helmet.


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## youngoldbloke (10 Feb 2022)

figbat said:


> Meaning not only insurance, VED, MoT and licence requirements but you can only ride on roads and byways and you have to wear a motorcycle helmet.


Wisper make no mention of these requirements. Perhaps it would be best to ask them?


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## classic33 (10 Feb 2022)

youngoldbloke said:


> Wisper make no mention of these requirements. Perhaps it would be best to ask them?


T'was they who said



classic33 said:


> _"The bike has to be taken to an MoT centre that's qualified to do the work, it is then tested over about 40 minutes to ensure that it is a road legal EPAC or EAPC now in the UK (Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycle) conforming to EAPC regs. The bike is then Type Approved and awarded a 250W LPM certificate. The bike can then have its twist grip assistance/walk along regulator opened up from 3.7mph to 15.5mph.
> 
> Although the bike is then Type Approved there is no need for an annal MOT test."_
> 
> ...


As well as
_And, "if you get a type approval, it essentially registers the vehicle as a motorbike subjecting it to tax, registration and insurance requirements but if you do a single vehicle approval, it allows you to continue as if it were a regular pedelec but makes using a full twist and go throttle (without pedalling) legal?"_


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## youngoldbloke (11 Feb 2022)

classic33 said:


> T'was they who said
> 
> 
> As well as
> _And, "if you get a type approval, it essentially registers the vehicle as a motorbike subjecting it to tax, registration and insurance requirements but if you do a single vehicle approval, it allows you to continue as if it were a regular pedelec but makes using a full twist and go throttle (without pedalling) legal?"_



- any idea what the number plates look like?


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## fossyant (11 Feb 2022)

figbat said:


> and you have to wear a motorcycle helmet.



Oh good god, that would put me right off. I cringe when I see folk in full face MTB downhill lids for pottering about - why ? You'll boil your bonce. 

We had a lad come out with us on a MTB ride, full face and a carbon DH bike. We did warn him not to (bike and lid). He nearly died.


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## classic33 (11 Feb 2022)

youngoldbloke said:


> - any idea what the number plates look like?


Standard motorcycle size, 9" X 7".


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## youngoldbloke (11 Feb 2022)

classic33 said:


> Standard motorcycle size, 9" X 7".


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## classic33 (11 Feb 2022)

youngoldbloke said:


>


If you put it through a test to get it classified as a motorcycle, albeit electric powered, what do you expect?

Characters may be small as 44mm wide x 64mm high, but the number of characters on the plate determine the final plate size.


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## youngoldbloke (11 Feb 2022)

classic33 said:


> If you put it through a test to get it classified as a motorcycle, albeit electric powered, what do you expect?
> 
> Characters may be small as 44mm wide x 64mm high, but the number of characters on the plate determine the final plate size.


*I* won't be buying one. If I needed such a machine I'd simply buy a moped and consider my cycling days over .


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## classic33 (11 Feb 2022)

youngoldbloke said:


> *I* won't be buying one. If I needed such a machine I'd simply buy a moped and consider my cycling days over .


Having seen an electric motorcycle, and getting to know the person riding it, I'd be more inclined to go for motorcycle than moped.
Quite a nice machine, and quiet in use.


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## Ming the Merciless (11 Feb 2022)

Biker man said:


> I understand that Wisper ebikes are fitting a throttle to there new ebikes .That will reach 15 and half miles per hour ,hope all makes follow suit.



Not in Europe and UK they won’t. If you want an emoped go for it, just don’t call it a bike.


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## Biker man (11 Feb 2022)

fossyant said:


> Well, they aren't legal to use in UK and Europe. PS messengers usually get shot in films !


I not in films but think there are a few cowboys around.


Ming the Merciless said:


> Not in Europe and UK they won’t. If you want an emoped go for it, just don’t call it a bike.


If it's got pedals it's a bike Ming


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## classic33 (11 Feb 2022)

Biker man said:


> I not in films but think there are a few cowboys around.
> *If it's got pedals it's a bike Ming*


And if it passes the MVSA, it's then legally classed as a motorcycle.

Even the company acknowledge this. And they can only offer this service for their own bikes.


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## Ming the Merciless (11 Feb 2022)

Biker man said:


> I not in films but think there are a few cowboys around.
> If it's got pedals it's a bike Ming



A Gokart has pedals, a moped has pedals. In the case of a moped, the clue is in the name.


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## figbat (11 Feb 2022)

Biker man said:


> If it's got pedals it's a bike Ming


I had one of these when I was 16. It's a bike though, right?


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## ebikeerwidnes (11 Feb 2022)

figbat said:


> I had one of these when I was 16. It's a bike though, right?
> View attachment 630542


Like to see you get that up a hill without the motor!!!


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## classic33 (11 Feb 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> Like to see you get that up a hill without the motor!!!


Simple, get off and push.


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## figbat (11 Feb 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> Like to see you get that up a hill without the motor!!!


It had a clutch that would decouple the engine and allow you to pedal it like a bicycle. It was not designed for pedalling!


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## fossyant (11 Feb 2022)

figbat said:


> I had one of these when I was 16. It's a bike though, right?
> View attachment 630542



You are brave, I'd not be seen dead on one of those.


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## Biker man (11 Feb 2022)

figbat said:


> I had one of these when I was 16. It's a bike though, right?
> View attachment 630542


No it's got a engine and can go much faster than 15and half mph .


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## the snail (11 Feb 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> A Gokart has pedals, a moped has pedals. In the case of a moped, the clue is in the name.


Mopeds haven't had pedals for about 40 years. Even when they did, some of them you could fold the pedals out of the way coz they were pointless.


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## figbat (12 Feb 2022)

Biker man said:


> If it's got pedals it's a bike Ming





Biker man said:


> No it's got a engine and can go much faster than 15and half mph .


Make your mind up!


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## ebikeerwidnes (15 Feb 2022)

Dunno if anyone has pointed this out before but

https://cyclingindustry.news/wisper-launch-dvsa-approved-full-throttle-ebikes/


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## classic33 (15 Feb 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> Dunno if anyone has pointed this out before but
> 
> https://cyclingindustry.news/wisper-launch-dvsa-approved-full-throttle-ebikes/


Each bicycle* is still put through the MVSA by the company to comply with the regulations which allow the throttle to be fitted.

Notice it is classed as a moped, not a bicycle.

*Company's explanation of how it's done posted earlier.


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## Ming the Merciless (15 Feb 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> Dunno if anyone has pointed this out before but
> 
> https://cyclingindustry.news/wisper-launch-dvsa-approved-full-throttle-ebikes/



To be able to offer this capability Wisper Bikes has had a batch of its bikes tested by the DVSA and they have now been *Type Approved as 250W Low Powered Mopeds.*

As I stated up thread, it’s a moped!


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## Biker man (15 Feb 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> Dunno if anyone has pointed this out before but
> 
> https://cyclingindustry.news/wisper-launch-dvsa-approved-full-throttle-ebikes/


Thats what I read nearly got lynched for saying it here .


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## classic33 (15 Feb 2022)

Biker man said:


> Thats what I read nearly got lynched for saying it here .


Not the e-mail from the manufacturer?


Biker man said:


> Well I got a email off them saying that they were .


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## Biker man (15 Feb 2022)

classic33 said:


> Not the e-mail from the manufacturer?


Thats how I got it .


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## CXRAndy (15 Feb 2022)

Who cares whether its called a moped or ebike. I know the regulations need to be updated


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## classic33 (15 Feb 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Who cares whether its called a moped or ebike. I know the regulations need to be updated


They were updated, in 2016.


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## fossyant (15 Feb 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Who cares whether its called a moped or ebike. I know the regulations need to be updated



Quite correct...

I wouldn't be seen dead on either !


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## CXRAndy (16 Feb 2022)

classic33 said:


> They were updated, in 2016.


Since then, there has been a huge uptake of these bikes. A review of speed, power should be undertaken to help a modal shift away from cars for local journeys upto lets say 10miles. 

Eg having a bike with a full capacity throttle will help those who initially are very poor at cycling. Increase in speed to 18 or 20mph would also be attractive to those wanting to commute from further away. There would be no need to take specific clothing if you didn't need to arrive all sweaty.

Europe is for us UK cyclist's the Mecca for riding bikes and is also the massive market for ebikes.

Whether you dont agree on speed uplift is not the point, its my personal preference, so wont debate this point. Riders already exceed 15mph.


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## a.twiddler (16 Feb 2022)

No mention of the need to enter the minefield that is moped/ motorcycle training, CBT, as a moped specifically is a road vehicle subject to motor vehicle laws, being excluded from cycle paths and facilities, the need for compulsory insurance, helmet, etc. Where to put the number plate etc etc. All a bit vague and possibly misleading. How does it work?


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## ebikeerwidnes (16 Feb 2022)

These wisper ebikes/mopeds - do you have to wear a motorbike type helmet to ride them?


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## classic33 (16 Feb 2022)

a.twiddler said:


> No mention of the need to enter the minefield that is moped/ motorcycle training, CBT, as a moped specifically is a road vehicle subject to motor vehicle laws, being excluded from cycle paths and facilities, the need for compulsory insurance, helmet, etc. Where to put the number plate etc etc. All a bit vague and possibly misleading. How does it work?


Manufacturer puts each bicycle through the MSVA, at a cost to you of £200. £250 if you are sending one of their bikes back to them for this test.

Depending on the outcome of this test, none of the 90 done to date have failed, you will be given instructions on the type of plate, and placement of the plate.

Whilst the manufacturer does say that if it passes the MVSA it becomes a moped. They make no real mention of the requirements, other than VED and insurance. That I think would ruin the idea they are trying to sell. The MVSA also limits the motor size, as well as the top speed.


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## classic33 (16 Feb 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> These wisper ebikes/mopeds - do you have to wear a motorbike type helmet to ride them?


Yes, of the approved type as per any other moped.


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## classic33 (16 Feb 2022)

What happens to anyone who has one of these bikes, who has stuck with the factory supplied setup? 
Gaining type approval means they may effectively be riding a moped and be totally unaware of what has happened since they bought theirs.


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## a.twiddler (16 Feb 2022)

I also wonder about the lighting regulations as unless the bike is fitted with lighting that complies with the motor vehicle requirements for mopeds which would be different from cycles it might be classified as "daylight use only". Finding an MOT station in 3 years' time that deals with such machines might be a chore too if you don't want to travel long distances.


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## classic33 (16 Feb 2022)

Manufacturer claims that no further MOT is required after the MVSA. Which seems odd given it's a moped.


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## CXRAndy (16 Feb 2022)

classic33 said:


> Manufacturer claims that no further MOT is required after the MVSA. Which seems odd given it's a moped.


its a cycle caught up in the wrong category. 

Hence updated categories for ebikes, they should be carved out of moped regulations or decategorized all together


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## fossyant (16 Feb 2022)

Can you imagine all the wobbly bobs doing 20 mph, going to be carnage


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## classic33 (16 Feb 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> its a cycle caught up in the wrong category.
> 
> Hence updated categories for ebikes, they should be carved out of moped regulations or decategorized all together


The test, if it passes it, gets it legally classified as a moped. That's something that the person who wants to put it through the test, just for the throttle, should think about. The "extras" that come with it, and the cost of those "extras".

Ebikes already exist, their "engine" is battery powered not petrol or diesel fueled. I mentioned that earlier in the thread.


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## Dogtrousers (16 Feb 2022)

I think a bit of communication from the Govt wouldn't come amiss. We're a cycling forum full of barrack-room lawyers so we have a pretty good idea what the regulations are, what is and isn't a moped, what's legal on the road and what isn't. But Joe Public probably sees a chunky bike with a battery and thinks "ah, an ebike - I can ride that just like any other bike".


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## youngoldbloke (16 Feb 2022)

Dogtrousers said:


> I think a bit of communication from the Govt wouldn't come amiss. We're a cycling forum full of barrack-room lawyers so we have a pretty good idea what the regulations are, what is and isn't a moped, what's legal on the road and what isn't. But Joe Public probably sees a chunky bike with a battery and thinks "ah, an ebike - I can ride that just like any other bike".


Has anyone any clarification from Wisper about the requirements? I get the strong impression that these bikes are still classified as Pedalecs, not as mopeds, as they are limited to 15.5mph assistance.


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## classic33 (16 Feb 2022)

Dogtrousers said:


> I think a bit of communication from the Govt wouldn't come amiss. We're a cycling forum full of barrack-room lawyers so we have a pretty good idea what the regulations are, what is and isn't a moped, what's legal on the road and what isn't. But Joe Public probably sees a chunky bike with a battery and thinks "ah, an ebike - I can ride that just like any other bike".


At present you can have two bikes from the same manufacturer, almost identical to look at, but one has been put through the MVSA by the manufacturer. This has changed the category/class of vehicle by law, but how is a person to know. Especially if buying second-hand.

Maybe if the manufacturer was a bit more forthcoming, and upfront, with that information it would help. But that wouldn't do them any favours at present.


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## Biker man (16 Feb 2022)

a.twiddler said:


> No mention of the need to enter the minefield that is moped/ motorcycle training, CBT, as a moped specifically is a road vehicle subject to motor vehicle laws, being excluded from cycle paths and facilities, the need for compulsory insurance, helmet, etc. Where to put the number plate etc etc. All a bit vague and possibly misleading. How does it work?


Wisper is a pedal assist just wants throttle to the legal UK speed limit for ebikes wish I had one when I got the bonk.


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## classic33 (16 Feb 2022)

youngoldbloke said:


> Has anyone any clarification from Wisper about the requirements? I get the strong impression that these bikes are still classified as Pedalecs, not as mopeds, as they are limited to 15.5mph assistance.


From the manufacturer, earlier in the thread.


classic33 said:


> And, _"if you get a type approval, it essentially registers the vehicle as a motorbike subjecting it to *tax, registration and insurance requirements* but if you do a single vehicle approval, it allows you to continue as if it were a regular pedelec but makes using a full twist and go throttle (without pedalling) legal?"_


And they now have type approval for one specific model. Based on what has been posted. You are buying a moped, not a bicycle.


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## a.twiddler (16 Feb 2022)

A goodly number of people are probably using bicycles, and their heavier electric counterparts, as mobility aids already so surely there must be some way of slicing through the confusion of throttle/non throttle e bikes using some criterion from the disability discrimination act to allow throttle use on ebikes which might be officially classified as mobility aids. It would probably involve getting a certificate from your doctor to verify that you have some mobility limitation, another complication. Human nature being what it is, people tend to fight against accepting physical decline and being labelled. 

Still, it might provide a way round for riders with particular needs. It wouldn't bother those who think they should be able to zip around at higher speeds regardless of the law but it would give others reassurance that their e bike won't be confiscated and crushed because it unwittingly is classed as a moped, unlicenced, untaxed, maybe uninsured.


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## classic33 (16 Feb 2022)

a.twiddler said:


> A goodly number of people are probably using bicycles, and their heavier electric counterparts, as mobility aids already so surely there must be some way of slicing through the confusion of throttle/non throttle e bikes using some criterion from the disability discrimination act to allow throttle use on ebikes which might be officially classified as mobility aids. It would probably involve getting a certificate from your doctor to verify that you have some mobility limitation, another complication. Human nature being what it is, people tend to fight against accepting physical decline and being labelled.
> 
> Still, it might provide a way round for riders with particular needs. It wouldn't bother those who think they should be able to zip around at higher speeds regardless of the law but it would give others reassurance that their e bike won't be confiscated and crushed because it unwittingly is classed as a moped, unlicenced, untaxed, maybe uninsured.


The DDA 1995 no longer exists, and it worked both ways to prevent discrimination on either side.

You can get mobility scooters that can go faster than that defined for pavement use. They however show only be used on the roads at higher than walking speed. 
Many are also registered, and fully fitted out with lights, including brake lights and indicators.


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## a.twiddler (16 Feb 2022)

Ah of course, the Equality Act -but many of the principles apply. Seems a bit counter productive, having to register a mobility scooter. Not directly comparable with e bikes, I would have thought, but sets some kind of precedent, maybe.


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## David EBiker (16 Feb 2022)

Hello all,

David here, founder and CEO of *(Mod Edit: company name removed).*

I can confirm that a full throttle is allowed on a EAPC as long as the bike conforms to EN15194, which ours and most others do, and have been Type Approved. This has been the case for about a year now, but only recently has it been easily available to us.

As founder and Chairman of The British Electric Bicycle Association at the time eBike laws and regs were being discussed at the DfT, I was invited to join in with the discussions along with The Bicycle Association of GB and the Motor Cycle Traders Association appertaining to EBike law in the UK. We had several meetings, where everything from the bell to the weight of an EAPC and indeed the term Electrically Powered Pedal Cycle (EAPC) was discussed in A LOT of detail and many decisions were made.

Both the MCTA and BAGB were very keen to change the law and get rid of the throttle which at the time the meetings were taking place were legal on EAPCs. Neither wanted to "blur the lines" between pedal bicycles and mopeds so it was decided, against my strenuous argument, that the throttle should be banned. I argued that although it should be legal, the throttle shouldn't be compulsory on an EAPC, so brands could chose whether they wanted to add one or not. I felt then and still feel today that a throttle to 15.5mph makes entry to e-cycling available to many more people so cycling generally becomes more inclusive. Having a throttle also has the advantage of making manoeuvring at low speeds easier and safer.

Originally the MoT wanted to outlaw the twist control all together, however we argued that a walk along mode should be included and the twist grip was a good way of making it available to the rider. Our twist grip doubles up as an assistance modulator so, only when pedaling, by twisting the grip the rider can boost or reduce assistance quickly without changing the assistance level with the usual buttons.

The MoT agreed that the throttle did make cycling more inclusive, but also agreed that there should be a difference between a moped and an EAPC, so as a compromise the decision was made that a simple Type Approval would be made available and once awarded the throttle could be turned back on. This was so the bikes could be checked for roadworthiness and to make sure they conformed to EN15194, once issued with the British National Type Approval Certificate (attached) companies are then allowed to open the throttle to 15.5mph... legally!

Anyone can get this done.

I hope this helps?

All the best, David


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## David EBiker (16 Feb 2022)




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## David EBiker (16 Feb 2022)

*For those interested in the detail, *everything can be found in the 200+ page Motorcycle Single Vehicle Approval (MSVA) Inspection Manual Amendment 5 2019. And the new category L1e category *250W LPM*

The Motorcycle Single Vehicle Approval Scheme applies to: Mopeds Low powered moped (L1e)

· a 2, 3 or 4 wheeled moped with pedals
· with auxiliary propulsion not exceeding 1kW
· with a maximum design speed not exceeding 25km/h (16mph)
*· includes sub-category 250W LPM (see definition below)

250W LPM 250 Watt Low Powered Moped.*

This is a sub-group of Low Powered Moped that meets the criteria laid down in the Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycle Regulations 1983 (SI 1983 No. 1168) as amended by SI 2015 No. 24. The requirements are that the vehicle:

· Be fitted with pedals by means of which it is capable of being propelled.
· Be fitted with no motor other than an electric motor, which has a maximum continuous rated power, which does not exceed 250 watts and cannot propel the vehicle when it is travelling at more than 15.5 mph. (Note: the official speed is 25 km/h, MSVA will accept declarations up to and including 16 mph as per low powered mopeds).

These vehicles will be required to meet the standards applied to Low Powered Mopeds except where specified.

To find all the allowances for *250W LPM* you will need to trawl through all 200 pages of the above-mentioned document.

There you will find such information as below which applies to stands

*Stands January 2019 1/1 1 Application*

This examination applies to all 2 wheeled vehicles. Requirements 2b, 2c and 3b do not apply to any vehicle which is designed in such a way that it cannot be propelled by its engine when the stand is extended i.e. an inhibitor (interlock) is fitted.

*Requirements 2b, 2c and 4a and 4b do not apply to a 250W LPM with a mass in running order of less than 35 kg*

2. Check that the prop stand;

b) is able to swing back automatically into the retracted or travelling position when the vehicle returns to its normal (vertical) position, or

c) is able to swing back automatically into the retracted or travelling position following the first contact with the ground when the vehicle moves forward as a deliberate action of the rider

4. Where required, check an inhibitor is; Motorcycle Single Vehicle Approval Manual Stands January 2019, 1/2 1
a) fitted

So……, the above rules DO NOT apply to the new *250W LPM* category.

It goes on and on like this!

IN SUMMARY

The DfT have kindly informed us through the BAGB that they have

**"Updated the Motorcycle Single Vehicle Approval test to include a sub-category for "Twist and go" electric bikes, which require type approval before sale but which can otherwise be used like other 'normal' e-bikes.

Fewer modifications will now be needed for these machines to pass the test and gain type approval. The MSVA test costs £55 per individual vehicle.

It can be then used essentially as a normal bicycle (although the
rider must be aged 14 or over). But if such a bike has a motor which
can be operated without the rider pedalling, it has since Jan 2016
required type approval before sale (in accordance with EU regulation 168/2013) and is known as a Twist & Go (T&G) EAPC."

FOR MORE DETAIL

See

https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules

http://tinyurl.com/ycl3zz4l

http://tinyurl.com/y94cpfo8

With thanks to Peter Elland BAGB

All the best, David


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## ebikeerwidnes (16 Feb 2022)

I believe that the rider also needs to have a moped type helmet???


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## classic33 (16 Feb 2022)

David EBiker said:


> *For those interested in the detail, *everything can be found in the 200+ page Motorcycle Single Vehicle Approval (MSVA) Inspection Manual Amendment 5 2019. And the new category L1e category *250W LPM*
> 
> The Motorcycle Single Vehicle Approval Scheme applies to: Mopeds Low powered moped (L1e)
> 
> ...


That first link is a bit out of date. Quadracycles were included in the rules change in 2015, they came into effect in 2016.


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## CXRAndy (17 Feb 2022)

Some positive steps to regulations for non 'cyclists'


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## classic33 (17 Feb 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Some positive steps to regulations for non 'cyclists'


You mean moped riders. As that is what the MVSA classifies them as should they pass.


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## bonzobanana (22 Feb 2022)

fossyant said:


> The rules for riding an ebike in the UK and Europe are these: the bike must have a motor with a maximum power of 250Wh, it must be pedal-assist only — a throttle is only allowed for speeds up to a walking pace. The motor must stop assisting when you get over 15.5mph (that’s 25 km/h). You can pedal your bike as fast as you like under your own steam, of course.


I'm pretty sure a lot of that is wrong, its a 250W rating but it is that rating or nominal power because many legal ebikes for example Bosch mid-drive ebikes will peak at about 700W or more for a short time. Also a throttle is completely legal when used with a pedelec bike its really just an alternative to having separate power levels. Many ebikes have lets say 3 or 5 power levels but the throttle just gives you variable power. It won't do anything if you aren't pedalling or you are going above 15.5mph. However previously a twist and go throttle arrangement was allowed but that was something like 2016 when it ended but its still legal to use those older ebikes on the road. The new law didn't apply to ebikes that had already been purchased. So there are many ebikes out there that are twist and go legally and newer ebikes can still have throttles without issues as long as they only operate while you are pedalling. 

It seems very difficult for the police to prosecute twist and go type ebikes. Really I think they should just focus on the 15.5mph assisted speed. Any ebike they come across that will assist past 17 or 18mph (allowing for a small tolerance) should be classed as illegal but how they are meant to check the rest of it I don't know. The 250W motor rule is frankly ridiculous because the motor doesn't dictate the power the controller does. There is probably not a single ebike on the UK market with a 250W motor most if not all are just restricted by the controller. Direct drive hub motors sold as 250W often could take maybe 2000W but its the controller that only supplies 250W with perhaps a peak around 400W.


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## ebikeerwidnes (22 Feb 2022)

There is no way a coper at the side of the road can measure the motor power - it would take a proper expert

It should fairly easy to check the speed cutoff - but does a copper really want to ride the bike up the road and check - and how do they measure teh speed - trusting the ebike speedo would never hold up in court!

Of course - if it is a pre-built ebike by a big company then it will have a plate on it saying the motor power (and other stuff) so it is easy to just show them that

I think that, if they ever bother, the main enforcement activity will be looking at the size of your motor (cue Kenneth Williams impressions) and generally checking speed v. effort
anyone with a 10 inch diameter hub motor doing 25 on the flat is kinda obvious
some old fat bald bloke sweating like crazy going up a slight incline doing 13 mph is not really worth stopping
so that's me OK!!!


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## David EBiker (24 Feb 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> I believe that the rider also needs to have a moped type helmet???


Hi! I can confirm that riders of Type Approved eBikes with throttles do not have to wear a helmet.

All the best, David


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## classic33 (24 Feb 2022)

David EBiker said:


> Hi! I can confirm that riders of Type Approved eBikes with throttles do not have to wear a helmet.
> 
> All the best, David


If they get reclassified as light mopeds, why are they excluded from the regulations. They're required by the same regulations to have insurance.


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## ebikeerwidnes (24 Feb 2022)

David EBiker said:


> Hi! I can confirm that riders of Type Approved eBikes with throttles do not have to wear a helmet.
> 
> All the best, David


THIS appears to say you do need a helmet

doesn't actually say it but I certainly read it as saying you do
not totally clear though

Is there something that is more definate?


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## Milkfloat (24 Feb 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> THIS appears to say you do need a helmet
> 
> doesn't actually say it but I certainly read it as saying you do
> not totally clear though
> ...


What part makes you think that? I see nothing that suggests a helmet, in fact I see "If a bike meets the EAPC requirements it’s classed as a normal pedal bike", which very much means no helmet required.


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## classic33 (24 Feb 2022)

Milkfloat said:


> What part makes you think that? I see nothing that suggests a helmet, in fact I see "If a bike meets the EAPC requirements it’s classed as a normal pedal bike", which very much means no helmet required.


The MVSA reclassified it as a light moped. Requiring insurance, and licence to use.


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## ebikeerwidnes (24 Feb 2022)

Milkfloat said:


> What part makes you think that? I see nothing that suggests a helmet, in fact I see "If a bike meets the EAPC requirements it’s classed as a normal pedal bike", which very much means no helmet required.


This bit

Other types of ELectric bike
Any electric bike that does not meet the EAPC rules is classed as a motorcycle or moped and needs to be registered and taxed. You’ll need a driving licence to ride one and you must wear a crash helmet.

However, it also talks about 'type approval' and could be thought to imply that a 'type approved' ebike - in this case with a throttle - is then classified as an EPAC

I suppose the thing is I don;t know what the type approval can approve - for example can it approve a more powerful motor?
or a higher cut off speed?


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## Milkfloat (24 Feb 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> This bit
> 
> Other types of ELectric bike
> Any electric bike that does not meet the EAPC rules is classed as a motorcycle or moped and needs to be registered and taxed. You’ll need a driving licence to ride one and you must wear a crash helmet.
> ...


I must be missing something then - as I thought this whole thread was about a bike that now meets EAPC.


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## ebikeerwidnes (24 Feb 2022)

That is my question - does it now meet EPAC - or does type approval just mean that it is now allowed on the roads?
i.e. do you need a helmet, insurance etc
and can you use cycle paths


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## Milkfloat (24 Feb 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> That is my question - does it now meet EPAC - or does type approval just mean that it is now allowed on the roads?
> i.e. do you need a helmet, insurance etc
> and can you use cycle paths


I think from reading at @David EBiker 's post and the links provided that EAPC + Type Approval = Throttle allowed and EAPC status maintained. This means no helmet requirement.


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## classic33 (24 Feb 2022)

Milkfloat said:


> I think from reading at @David EBiker 's post and the links provided that EAPC + Type Approval = Throttle allowed and EAPC status maintained. This means no helmet requirement.


By the same person, elsewhere
_"if you get a type approval, it essentially registers the vehicle as a motorbike subjecting it to *tax, registration and insurance requirements* but if you do a single vehicle approval, it allows you to continue as if it were a regular pedelec but makes using a full twist and go throttle (without pedalling) legal?"_


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## Mike_P (3 Sep 2022)

Having been brought to a halt by a set of TTLs going up a 1 in 3 this morning and hence resorting to shanks's pony for the rest of the climb I did start to think their is a case for legal ebikes to have a hill start function - self powered from stop to a few km/h when the bike is pointed upwards


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## ebikeerwidnes (4 Sep 2022)

Mike_P said:


> Having been brought to a halt by a set of TTLs going up a 1 in 3 this morning and hence resorting to shanks's pony for the rest of the climb I did start to think their is a case for legal ebikes to have a hill start function - self powered from stop to a few km/h when the bike is pointed upwards



I do think my ebike is geared wrongly
7th gear is never used - if I was going that fast then I would not be pedalling - but would be screaming!!!
1st gear is fine on the steepest hill I have tried - but only if I have some power assist - I could do with an extra gear or two for the steepest bits - or to get restarted (happened once on some leaves when the rear wheel lost traction and I couldn't restart)
but then the main gear I use would not be in the middle


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## youngoldbloke (4 Sep 2022)

Mike_P said:


> Having been brought to a halt by a set of TTLs going up a 1 in 3 this morning ...



What are TTLs?


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## Mike_P (4 Sep 2022)

youngoldbloke said:


> What are TTLs?



Temporary traffic lights.


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## Karl Lattimer (5 Jan 2023)

Hi everyone! Keen to add my input as I am sure of what the rules are though they are a bit muddled it hopefully will make some sense

Basically, any e bike that Meets the EPAC rules is classed as an EPAC bike. The road traffic laws, for EPAC bikes and normal pedal bikes are the same, so you can ride an EPAC bike anywhere you can ride a normal pedal bike (cycling lanes, on road, don’t need tax/insurance/mot etc) For an e-bike to be classed as an EPAC, the technical rules are 1. 15.5 mph max assisted speed 2. 250w motor maximum and 3. Must have pedals that are capable of propelling. If it breaks any of the three rules listed then it is regarded as a moped. The use of a throttle is where it gets confusing, but you can have a full twist throttle and it still can count as an Epac! See next paragraph

Where it does get confusing is the 6 km/h throttle rule. Simply putting it, the 6km/h throttle has nothing to do with whether an E-bike is classed as an EPAC or MOPED. The 6 km/h throttle rule only affects whether the EPAC has to be type approved or not. Type approval can apply to EPACs too, it is not specifically for motor vehicles.
If you have an EPAC where the the thumb throttle is limited to 6km/h without pedalling (start assist mode) then the Epac is excluded from type approval, however, if you have an EPAC where the throttle can go faster than 6km/h without pedalling, then the e bike is still classed as an EPAC but has to be type approved as well to be fully road legal
The introduction to EN15194, states “This European Standard has been developed in response to demand throughout Europe. Its aim is to provide a standard for the assessment of electrically powered cycles OF A TYPE WHICH ARE EXCLUDED FROM TYPE APPROVAL BY REGLATION NO168/2013” The Bold writing is the key point. After that sentance, later on in the document, it lays down technical requirements for the thumb throttle, limiting it to 6km/h when used alone, and is known as start assist mode. So what en 15194 says with regard to the throttle, is that a 6km/h one excludes the EPAC from being type approved , not that the 6km/h throttle is an EPAC law. 

For clarity The only rules that affect whether an e bike is an EPAC or moped are the ones listed in my first paragraph paragraph (point 1 - 3) If any of these rules are broken then the e bike is a moped.


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## Dogtrousers (5 Jan 2023)

Karl Lattimer said:


> For clarity The only rules that affect whether an e bike is an EPAC or moped are the ones listed in my first paragraph paragraph (point 1 - 3) If any of these rules are broken then the e bike is a moped.


And so ... if I've understood correctly ... if a bike has a twist-and-go throttle that goes > 6kmh it _might _still be an EPAC - if the type has gone through type approval 168/2013 as an EPAC.

But on the other hand, if it has a >6kmh throttle and has _not_ gone through type approval as an EPAC, then it's not an EPAC. It may be a moped or an un-approved vehicle of some sort.

Izzat right?


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## numbnuts (5 Jan 2023)

Pre 2016 throttle comes to mind


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## ebikeerwidnes (5 Jan 2023)

numbnuts said:


> Pre 2016 throttle comes to mind


Yes - but that comes with other regs as well - max power at 200W ratehr than 250 for example

However, it does seem that you can have a throttle on a post 2016 ebike and still be an EPAC - but you need to go through the type approval

There is a company on the UK that have pre-done this for one model (I think) 

ANyone done it - and know how difficult it is and how much it costs
and if you can use any DVLA station or if only a few have the ability/knowledge??


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## numbnuts (5 Jan 2023)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> Yes - but that comes with other regs as well - max power at 200W ratehr than 250 for example
> 
> However, it does seem that you can have a throttle on a post 2016 ebike and still be an EPAC - but you need to go through the type approval
> 
> ...



BS sorry, utter BS mine is rated at 250 w and is legal


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## classic33 (5 Jan 2023)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> Yes - but that comes with other regs as well - max power at 200W ratehr than 250 for example
> 
> However, it does seem that you can have a throttle on a post 2016 ebike and still be an EPAC - but you need to go through the type approval
> 
> ...


Tried to go through the test, mentioned earlier, but the nearest test station capable of handling it was over Salford.

The relevant test stations are few and far between.


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## midlife (5 Jan 2023)

numbnuts said:


> BS sorry, utter BS mine is rated at 250 w and is legal



I thought on January 1st 2016 the max legal power went from 200W to 250W ? didn't they also add 0.5 MPH to the max assisted speed as well?


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## Dogtrousers (5 Jan 2023)

midlife said:


> I thought on January 1st 2016 the max legal power went from 200W to 250W ? didn't they also add 0.5 MPH to the max assisted speed as well?



You are correct. https://assets.publishing.service.g...nt_data/file/369752/consultation-document.pdf



> _The current [1983] requirements are: _
> 
> _The continuous rated power of the motor must not exceed 200 watts for standard bicycles and 250 watts for tandems and tricycles. _
> _The electrical assistance must cut-off when the vehicle reaches 15 mph._
> ...



It's my last day before I start work again. I've taken the decorations down. Tidied the front garden. Put my work phone and laptop on charge. Now I'm reduced aimlessly googling e-bike legislation that I'm not much interested in.


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## classic33 (5 Jan 2023)

Dogtrousers said:


> You are correct. https://assets.publishing.service.g...nt_data/file/369752/consultation-document.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> It's my last day before I start work again. I've taken the decorations down. Tidied the front garden. Put my work phone and laptop on charge. Now I'm reduced aimlessly googling e-bike legislation that I'm not much interested in.


You could be doing worse.


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## bonzobanana (5 Jan 2023)

numbnuts said:


> BS sorry, utter BS mine is rated at 250 w and is legal



Is that a pre 2017 ebike or a more recent type approved model? 200W is continuous though, many ebikes are rated to 250W and consume more than 700W at times, climbing hills. The legislation is a terrible mess and makes little sense. A typical 250W geared hub motor with pedal assist is quite happy to consume over 400W for reasonable time periods. Both mid-drive and geared hub motors can easily over-heat when pushed so their continuous rating is well below their peak value. There was a recent mid-drive motor that only allowed for 12 seconds of peak wattage but it was extremely high wattage. Even direct drive hub motors which have lots of surface area to dissipate heat and have no internal gearing to create friction and heat can still over-heat with a long period of hill climbing. So this 250W continuous rating probably allows for significantly over 250W in real world use. A 36V battery with a discharge rate of something like 24A is not 250W (24x36=864W) yet many legal shop bought mid-drive ebikes are consuming that for momentary peak power and not much below it for sustained output up hills until thermal protection kicks in. It wouldn't be difficult to show many so called legal ebikes actually are higher wattage overall than many so called illegal models.

The important thing seems to be not have an ebike that looks like a motorbike as they seem to be the most likely to be crushed and don't go around at 30mph assisted without peddling. The main criteria seems to be assistance speed yet as a pedestrian you are much safer with a ebike going up a hill at 30mph assisted than a ebike going downhill at 30mph unassisted. The first will stop quickly if they have to and the second will likely have a long braking period, plenty of time to do damage to me if hit. The EU legislation just seems to be a bit of a farce designed to make it more difficult for standard world ebikes to be sold in Europe to protect EU industry as most of the world uses twist and go throttles with ebikes which is simple, reliable, safe and cheap.


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