# Clipless pain behind the knee tendon/ligament



## BatmanOnABike (27 Apr 2013)

Hi guys I read countless topics about behind the knee issues but still can't find out the cause.

I rode clipless for about 2 month and started experiencing this burning/stinging like sensation on the outside part back of my right knee it feels as if though it's from the tendon that sticks out when your knee is bent I sometimes feel the sensation on the outer calf area too. Initially it hurts when riding after I'm warmed up it doesn't hurt as much but once I'm off the bike the sensation stays for a good while burning type it's not the same as muscle fatigue and takes about 4 days to a week to heal.

I am using Shimano SPDs standard ones which use a recessed cleat I have two bikes both have different pedals and two pairs of shoes I use my road bike more the issue is with both though I have lowered the seat the pain is only a little lighter but still there but at this point the seat is too low and I get fatigued way too fast with burning quads.

Note the float on the pedals is quite high I can toe in or stick my heel in to the point it's uncomfortable I can definitely position my feet where they would be on flats I compared.

As soon as I switched to flat/toe clips the pain was gone. It only occurs on the upstroke and only on my right leg, left leg is completely fine. I feel it the most when sprinting standing up or climbing.

I tried:
-Moved my saddle forward to get right knee alignment with pedal spindle
-I moved the cleats back as far as they can go (cleats mounted on front two holes so cleat wasn't all the way back)
-Lowering saddle height

Any suggestions?

Thanks!


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (27 Apr 2013)

http://www.livestrong.com/article/336256-cycling-iliotibial-band-syndrome/


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## BatmanOnABike (27 Apr 2013)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> http://www.livestrong.com/article/336256-cycling-iliotibial-band-syndrome/


Thanks for the reply I looked into ITB issues too but my pain seems to be more from the hamstring tendon you can see in this pic http://www.sportspodiatry.co.uk/images/ITBand10.jpg I do the same miles (22 round a day) on flats fine with no pain


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (27 Apr 2013)

I'd assume it's hamstring tendonitis

How is the bike setup now? and do you have a record of the changes made


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## BatmanOnABike (27 Apr 2013)

Yes basically after the issue I rode flats for about a month till all was healed I set my road bike up with the saddle height I'm most comfortable at which is when the cranks are parallel with the seat tube at the low position my foot is flat (parallel to the floor). I set the cleat position to be my natural foot angle plenty of float and after three days it started to come back same spot same symptoms only when riding clipless.


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## marzjennings (27 Apr 2013)

I'm guessing it's the angle of the cleat inline with how you naturally place your feet on the pedals. Hence why no pain on the flats. Even with float your foot will generally settle back into the middle of the float range, potentially a bad angle for your feet. If you set up the cleats like the image below...







...then you've made an assumption that's how your feet line up on the pedals.

Next time you ride on the flats take a look at your foot angle, are you more ankle in or ankle out. Imagine a straight through the pedals parallel to the frame and where your foot seems to line on that line. Then set the cleat position to follow that line. For me that means a line from my middle toe to the inside of the middle of my heal, slightly heal out on the pedals.


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## BatmanOnABike (27 Apr 2013)

marzjennings said:


> I'm guessing it's the angle of the cleat inline with how you naturally place your feet on the pedals. Hence why no pain on the flats. Even with float your foot will generally settle back into the middle of the float range, potentially a bad angle for your feet. If you set up the cleats like the image below...
> 
> ...then you've made an assumption that's how your feet line up on the pedals.
> 
> Next time you ride on the flats take a look at your foot angle, are you more ankle in or ankle out. Imagine a straight through the pedals parallel to the frame and where your foot seems to line on that line. Then set the cleat position to follow that line. For me that means a line from my middle toe to the inside of the middle of my heal, slightly heal out on the pedals.


 
I did exactly that I'm very slightly toed out it does seem like hamstring tendinitis


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (27 Apr 2013)

BatmanOnABike said:


> Yes basically after the issue I rode flats for about a month till all was healed I set my road bike up with the saddle height I'm most comfortable at which is when the cranks are parallel with the seat tube at the low position my foot is flat (parallel to the floor). I set the cleat position to be my natural foot angle plenty of float and after three days it started to come back same spot same symptoms only when riding clipless.


How is the bike setup now, compared to when you swapped to clipless?

Example: I'm 99.9% done with a winter niggle which forced my setup to change completely. On 20/3 measured between two constant points I had 100mm seatpost showing, I now have 137.5mm.

Not truly knowing what the changed amounted to, makes it really hard to advise.


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## BatmanOnABike (27 Apr 2013)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> How is the bike setup now, compared to when you swapped to clipless?


It's saddle was around 4-5mm lower(seat post has markings for height) when using flats that's all the differences, I had to raise it as spd system made it feel too low.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (27 Apr 2013)

BatmanOnABike said:


> It's saddle was around 4-5mm lower(seat post has markings for height) when using flats that's all the differences, I had to raise it as spd system made it feel too low.


It could be that your height was fine, but the saddle fore/aft position was the required change (back) Or indeed a variation of both.


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## BatmanOnABike (27 Apr 2013)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> It could be that your height was fine, but the saddle fore/aft position was the required change (back) Or indeed a variation of both.


Initially when I just started getting the issue I checked this out and the saddle was a little far back my knee was slightly behind the spindle I corrected this the second time I tried clipless after healing and got it aligned to be over the spindle but it seemed like it didn't fix the issue.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (27 Apr 2013)

The KOPS thing, isn't a one size fits all.


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## BatmanOnABike (27 Apr 2013)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> The KOPS thing, isn't a one size fits all.


I know what you mean I read a bit about it. It's a good starting guideline however I moved the saddle more forward and back and it wasn't resolved think it could be Q-factor? I have the cleats set to be in the middle.


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## HLaB (27 Apr 2013)

BatmanOnABike said:


> It's saddle was around 4-5mm lower(seat post has markings for height) when using flats that's all the differences, I had to raise it as spd system made it feel too low.


Id try putting it back. I had slight problems (perhaps similar) when cycling two bikes I thought were set up identically but I lowered the saddle on one and moved it forward by about 2.5mm and it went away. A wild stab but perhaps your foot stretch from the saddle is different (and its not fixed anyway) to your spd foot position which is fixed.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (27 Apr 2013)

BatmanOnABike said:


> I know what you mean I read a bit about it. It's a good starting guideline however I moved the saddle more forward and back and it wasn't resolved think it could be Q-factor? I have the cleats set to be in the middle.


Honestly. I had to google Q factor so no idea lol


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## BatmanOnABike (27 Apr 2013)

HLaB said:


> Id try putting it back. I had slight problems (perhaps similar) when cycling two bikes I thought were set up identically but I lowered the saddle on one and moved it forward by about 2.5mm and it went away. A wild stab but perhaps your foot stretch from the saddle is different (and its not fixed anyway) to your spd foot position which is fixed.


I did haha but it was waay too tiring my quads would burn out fast I may try putting it down 2-3mm instead and see what happens kinda sad though feels like I hit the sweet spot in saddle height were I have the most power.


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## HLaB (27 Apr 2013)

BatmanOnABike said:


> I did haha but it was waay too tiring my quads would burn out fast I may try putting it down 2-3mm instead and see what happens kinda sad though feels like I hit the sweet spot in saddle height were I have the most power.


Worth a try good luck


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (27 Apr 2013)

Only make 1 change at a time though. There's no point raising your saddle 5mm and moving it 5mm forward, that essentially brings you back to the same position.

Good luck  If problems persist see a bike fitter/LBS yada yada.


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## BatmanOnABike (27 Apr 2013)

Thanks guys.


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## Ningishzidda (27 Apr 2013)

How is it??? Some cyclists ride 20 or so miles each day on a tourer or MTB to work, ride a roadrace bike on 'evening 50s', ride a sports tourer on Audax 200s and jump on a Raleigh 20 shopper to ride an Audax 100 ????


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (27 Apr 2013)

Ningishzidda said:


> How is it??? Some cyclists ride 20 or so miles each day on a tourer or MTB to work, ride a roadrace bike on 'evening 50s', ride a sports tourer on Audax 200s and jump on a Raleigh 20 shopper to ride an Audax 100 ????


Do you actually know what you're trying to say or do we have to guess?


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## BatmanOnABike (27 Apr 2013)

Ningishzidda said:


> How is it??? Some cyclists ride 20 or so miles each day on a tourer or MTB to work, ride a roadrace bike on 'evening 50s', ride a sports tourer on Audax 200s and jump on a Raleigh 20 shopper to ride an Audax 100 ????


How is what exactly?


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## Ningishzidda (27 Apr 2013)

BatmanOnABike said:


> Yes basically after the issue I rode flats for about a month till all was healed I set my road bike up with the saddle height I'm most comfortable at which is when the cranks are parallel with the seat tube at the low position my foot is flat (parallel to the floor). I set the cleat position to be my natural foot angle plenty of float and after three days it started to come back same spot same symptoms only when riding clipless.


 
When the crank is down parallel to the seat tube as you describe, you should be able to brush the SPD with your heel. Make sure you are sitting square on the saddle and not rocked over to touch your heel on the SPD.


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## BatmanOnABike (27 Apr 2013)

Ningishzidda said:


> When the crank is down parallel to the seat tube as you describe, you should be able to brush the SPD with your heel. Make sure you are sitting square on the saddle and not rocked over to touch your heel on the SPD.


Basically I used this to set my height http://www.bikesplit.com/image/bfig1.gif


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## Ningishzidda (27 Apr 2013)

http://www.cartilagehealth.com/cycling.html

Have a read of this. 

Note, on the diagram, touch the heel of your socks, not your shoes.


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## BatmanOnABike (27 Apr 2013)

Ningishzidda said:


> http://www.cartilagehealth.com/cycling.html
> 
> Have a read of this.
> 
> Note, on the diagram, touch the heel of your socks, not your shoes.


Hmm interesting thanks for the link I will try readjusting based on it by the way shoes with cleats are a little higher than standard flat soled shoes so maybe adjusting in socks might make it a tad too low?


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## Kevin Airey (1 May 2013)

I had exactly the same issue as you, I flew to Mallorca (I live in Spain) and visited a bike fit centre and sports physio at the same time.

For me the bike fit solved 90% of the problem, I now only get the occasional cramp but no tendon issues and extending my mileage up to 120km per ride without problems. The main change was saddle height, I thought I had it set correctly but it had to go up by 2.5cm (gradually). This better leg extension stops dropping of the heel, plus I needed wedges on the cleats so the knees tracked better.

I also have a set of exercises that help, but TBH I haven't had to do them. I can send these to you if you PM me an email address....


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## BatmanOnABike (6 May 2013)

Kevin Airey said:


> I had exactly the same issue as you, I flew to Mallorca (I live in Spain) and visited a bike fit centre and sports physio at the same time.
> 
> For me the bike fit solved 90% of the problem, I now only get the occasional cramp but no tendon issues and extending my mileage up to 120km per ride without problems. The main change was saddle height, I thought I had it set correctly but it had to go up by 2.5cm (gradually). This better leg extension stops dropping of the heel, plus I needed wedges on the cleats so the knees tracked better.
> 
> I also have a set of exercises that help, but TBH I haven't had to do them. I can send these to you if you PM me an email address....


 Interesting currently I have platforms attached with straps......... which is what a lot of fixie riders use, going to trial them and see if I can get rid of the pain they feel similar with stiff sole shoes I can examine my foot positioning too. A helpful employee at a local Evans suggested it's due to the cleat being too far back therefore using my hamstrings to rotate the cranks on the bottom stroke and causing my foot to dip. What's slightly irritating is that my left foot although never gets any pain feels slightly shorter than my right :S I think it may be an alignment issue (knee tracking possibly).


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## Kevin Airey (6 May 2013)

I was also told that 1 leg is shorter than the other but I can't remember which, it was a matter of a few mm's and they said at my age I shouldn't correct for it as my body has adjusted and lived with it for so long.

It sounds like exactly the same joint that is bugging you, and I can only say that mine was solved my a combination of cleat adjustment & wedges, and saddle positioning, the main culprit been the saddle too low.

I just get an occasional cramp in the same position but usually when I have been pushing a big gear too long and it goes off if I ease up a little.


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