# Give way for Ambulances?



## cd365 (22 Jan 2018)

Is the cyclist in the wrong?
http://metro.co.uk/2018/01/22/cyclist-gets-way-ambulance-sirens-blaring-complains-near-miss-7248829/ 

In my opinion it was a yes.


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## ianrauk (22 Jan 2018)

He could have pulled over to let the ambulance by very easily.


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## Drago (22 Jan 2018)

He's a pranny. Let's hope that none of his family need an ambulance some some chump doesn't delay them on principle.

"Where could I possibly go?". How about the kerbside at the first safe opportunity? No wonder he works on the busses, like that other bike cam Dilbert.


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## Glow worm (22 Jan 2018)

''Where could I possibly go?'' er....... how about pull over, out of the way like the other traffic?! Idiot.


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## Bollo (22 Jan 2018)

Remove the question mark from the thread title and we have the answer.

Mind you, I saw a driver waft through a roundabout right in front of an ambo on full blues-and-twos a couple of days ago. A Dique's a Dique, no matter what the transport.


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## Nigel-YZ1 (22 Jan 2018)

Rider was at no time in danger and decided to carry on rather than stop on the roundabout. Total non-story created by someone wanting to create a fuss about nothing. Ambulance crews are trained to give appropriate warning then let other road users sort themselves out and proceed as efficiently as possible.


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## jefmcg (22 Jan 2018)

People like him give bus inspectors a bad name. 

(and thanks for making me click a metro link, I might have gone for months without realizing another royal was engaged)


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## spen666 (22 Jan 2018)

Sadly an attitude exhibited by many in society, unrelated to mode of transport.

Too many people think me me me and have no consideration of how their actions impact on others.


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## MontyVeda (22 Jan 2018)

A few years back i was stood at a pedestrian crossing waiting to cross. An ambulance was hurtling down the road, the little green man appears and the plank next to me began to cross. I told him to stop and let the ambulance through and whilst he did do as i'd suggested, he had to have a good moan about it jumping a red light when it shouldn't have. What part of emergency did he not understand?


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## pjd57 (22 Jan 2018)

Ambulance drivers can be prats as well.

Recently pointed out to one that he was parked on zig zags right on a crossing. Totally blocking view of the road.
He just said " it's an emergency service vehicle "

But he wasn't going to or attending an emergency .
He was waiting on his mate coming out the post office


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## winjim (22 Jan 2018)

From his comments the cyclist does not seem to understand that sometimes emergency vehicles may not be in the "correct" lane when approaching junctions. He claims he thought the ambulance would pass on his right because it was in the right hand lane. Now, I wonder what could have caused it to be in that position?


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## Cuchilo (22 Jan 2018)

If i hear a siren and can see its heading my way i stop and get on the pavement so drivers have a clear chance of also getting out of the way . It doesn't take long .


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## Rooster1 (22 Jan 2018)

I always pull over and stop. That's plain and simple


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## GrumpyGregry (22 Jan 2018)

Yes. Doing otherwise is ignorant and uncivilised. Especially from a more vulnerable road user who may have need of emergency services at some point should the worst happen.


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## SkipdiverJohn (22 Jan 2018)

User said:


> The cyclist was an ignorant prat. He also wasn't "almost hit" as he claimed. Arses like him are the people who give cyclists a bad name.



Spot on. Cyclists are their own worst enemy doing dumb things and then wondering why other road users hate them!


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## MiK1138 (22 Jan 2018)

yes, he could have pulled in to the left in plenty time


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## mjr (22 Jan 2018)

Glow worm said:


> ''Where could I possibly go?'' er....... how about pull over, out of the way like the other traffic?! Idiot.


Wow - how different is the traffic around Newmarket? I'm only maybe 40 miles away and rather than pull over, the nobber motorists pull onto the cycleway and basically keep going until the ambulance passes, regardless of whether anyone was cycling or walking on the cycleway


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## Globalti (22 Jan 2018)

We don't see how much warning the cyclist had of the approaching ambulance but I bet he could have pulled over although as it happens he didn't delay the ambulance any more than the van it overtook. 

Nothing to see here, move along.


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## Drago (22 Jan 2018)

The story doesn't mention anything about the rider being deaf, so he would have had hundreds of metres of warning.


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## cd365 (22 Jan 2018)

jefmcg said:


> People like him give bus inspectors a bad name.
> 
> (and thanks for making me click a metro link, I might have gone for months without realizing another royal was engaged)


My apologies


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## mjr (22 Jan 2018)

Drago said:


> The story doesn't mention anything about the rider being deaf, so he would have had hundreds of metres of warning.


With the amount of road buzz reaching the camera off those narrow tyres on those roads, he may have been suffering concussion? Also, there seemed to be some selfish motorists blocking the view of the ambulance until the last few seconds and possibly they were using noisy engines that may have partially masked its sound.


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## roadrash (22 Jan 2018)

The mans a nob,.....nobs can be found in all walks of life


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## Mr Celine (22 Jan 2018)

None of the other traffic stopped or got out of the way of the ambulance either. 
If the ambulance intended turning left at the roundabout indicating such intention might have helped. And precisely what did blowing the horn achieve? The cyclist would have been in the way of the ambulance for far longer if he had stopped as a result of the horn blowing.


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## Fab Foodie (22 Jan 2018)

jefmcg said:


> People like him give bus inspectors a bad name.
> 
> (and thanks for making me click a metro link, I might have gone for months without realizing another royal was engaged)


Who now?


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## Tim Hall (22 Jan 2018)

Fab Foodie said:


> Who now?


Some foreign polony.


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## Drago (22 Jan 2018)

Mr Celine said:


> None of the other traffic stopped or got out of the way of the ambulance either.
> If the ambulance intended turning left at the roundabout indicating such intention might have helped. And precisely what did blowing the horn achieve? The cyclist would have been in the way of the ambulance for far longer if he had stopped as a result of the horn blowing.



Blowing on the horn changes the tone of the wailers.


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## boydj (22 Jan 2018)

Mr Celine said:


> None of the other traffic stopped or got out of the way of the ambulance either.
> If the ambulance intended turning left at the roundabout indicating such intention might have helped. And precisely what did blowing the horn achieve? The cyclist would have been in the way of the ambulance for far longer if he had stopped as a result of the horn blowing.



As the cyclist enters the roundabout he passes a small Toyota which has stopped to wait for the ambulance and allows the ambulance to proceed before turning left. I can't believe that the cyclist didn't have time from first hearing the siren to assess the situation and get out of the way. He must have seen the Toyota was waiting.

Sirens and blue lights mean get out of the way as quickly and safely as possible, without necessarily knowing what is going on behind.


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## steveindenmark (22 Jan 2018)

He was a total idiot for posting it on social media.


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## Mr Celine (22 Jan 2018)

boydj said:


> As the cyclist enters the roundabout he passes a small Toyota which has stopped to wait for the ambulance and allows the ambulance to proceed before turning left. I can't believe that the cyclist didn't have time from first hearing the siren to assess the situation and get out of the way. He must have seen the Toyota was waiting.



The Toyota wasn't waiting, in fact it never even stops. It appears to have slowed to give way to the vehicle on the roundabout (which does actually stop to give way to the ambulance).


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## Ming the Merciless (22 Jan 2018)

You are approaching a roundabout. You have cars to your left, a big van behind you, and can hear an ambulance. It's not till it is close up that you realise where it is. It's not as easy as a car where you could just stop and be reasonably sure of your safety. What's to stop the van driver running into the back of him or a car hitting him if he stops on roundabout? Not as black and white as it appears.


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## winjim (22 Jan 2018)

I like the way he accuses the ambulance driver of a non existent hit and run.


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## mustang1 (22 Jan 2018)

Some people always give way for ambulances and fire engines, good on them. Some people never give way (for example if they are at red lights) for unmarked police cars until the lights turn green.


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## Drago (22 Jan 2018)

mustang1 said:


> Some people always give way for ambulances and fire engines, good on them. Some people never give way (for example if they are at red lights) for unmarked police cars until the lights turn green.



And that's quite correct. There is no defence in law if you're caught jumping a red, even to help the emergency services, and if you have a smack doing so you risk being knocked off for dangerous.

To correct method is for the EMS driver to not pressure cars trapped at a red light. They should silence the wailer, keep the strobes going, and wait until the lights turn green. Plenty don't, but that's how it is supposed to be done.


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## Accy cyclist (23 Jan 2018)

pjd57 said:


> Ambulance drivers can be prats as well.



Like on the two occasions where an ambulance has come up behind me while i've been cycling, then puts on the siren,which as you can imagine scares the shoot out of you.

And before anyone says "You should've pulled over" I meant the driver put the siren on to alert vehicles ahead of the ambulance,not me. He/she just thought my hearing and balance or what could've been a lack of it weren't important.


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## BoldonLad (23 Jan 2018)

Does anyone, other than myself, have difficulty determining the direction from which sirens (attached to emergency vehicles) are coming, in a situation where you can hear them, but, not see them?

Personally, I would always attempt to get out of the way, if walking, cycling, driving, but, sometimes, it is difficult to determine what "out of the way" is!


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## Accy cyclist (23 Jan 2018)

Not forgetting the car driver who just had to overtake me when pulling to the side to let the cop car pass. Even when they think "Oh it's an emergency vehicle i must immediately pull over to let it pass",they just have to overtake that cyclist first. So what they do is then create a situation where their vehicle is completely blocking the lane,(instead of half the lane)for a few seconds.


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## Pale Rider (23 Jan 2018)

BoldonLad said:


> Does anyone, other than myself, have difficulty determining the direction from which sirens (attached to emergency vehicles) are coming, in a situation where you can hear them, but, not see them?
> 
> Personally, I would always attempt to get out of the way, if walking, cycling, driving, but, sometimes, it is difficult to determine what "out of the way" is!



Hearing sound direction is all but impossible. 

What we tend to do is use our eyes to create an overall picture.

If you are sitting in a room listenting to music, you see two speakers, so you 'know' where the sound is coming from.

In a car, more of the sound will come through the tin roof than the windows, so the feeling is the siren comes from above or all around.

Opening a window will change the picture, but still may not help you determine direction.


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## vickster (23 Jan 2018)

User13710 said:


> Makes you wonder how blind people manage.


Generally or when driving/cycling?


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## Profpointy (23 Jan 2018)

User3094 said:


> What absolute twaddle. Look up the Doppler Effect for a start.




How does Doppler effect have anything to do with direction?


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## subaqua (23 Jan 2018)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppler_effect
http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/science/aqa/origins/redshiftrev2.shtml


distance between ears is the doppler effect and the brain does the sums


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## Profpointy (23 Jan 2018)

subaqua said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppler_effect
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/science/aqa/origins/redshiftrev2.shtml



So how does doppler effect help direction finding? I'm (not quite) yet saying it doesn't but can't see how so remain sceptical


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## Phaeton (23 Jan 2018)

Pale Rider said:


> Hearing sound direction is all but impossible.


It is in my case I only have 1 working ear which is devoid of hearing in certain ranges, I cannot determine from which direction a sound comes from without turning my head & then it's still not 100% successful.


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## Profpointy (23 Jan 2018)

User3094 said:


> Let me draw you a picture....
> 
> View attachment 392770



Yes I know what doppler effect actually is, and could no doubt write down the maths, but what has that to do with finding direction?

I concede that if you have perfect pitch you could acertain if it was coming or going, but most of us would only know that when it passes. Direction per se is a different thing?

So, what has that to do with direction?


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## Accy cyclist (23 Jan 2018)

On about cyclists and ambulances, i've had four rides in an ambulance after being knocked off or falling off my bike. I wonder if this is a CC record?


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## classic33 (23 Jan 2018)

User3094 said:


> Do ambulances jump out of the bushes?


But they can appear out of side roads.

How do you tell, whilst on a roundabout with multiple entrances/exits, using Doppler Effect only?


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## Profpointy (23 Jan 2018)

User3094 said:


> Do ambulances jump out of the bushes?



Very droll I'm sure, but at a junction or roundabout where it most matters it could in front, behind, left, or right.

In any case are you claiming that you know the pitch of an ambulence hooter well enough to know if it's a a semitone flat and receding or sharp hence gaining on you and even then are you catching it up or is it catching you up ?

Not trying to be difficult but I still don't quite see what you're getting at


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## Profpointy (23 Jan 2018)

User3094 said:


> Unless you're unfortunate enough to be in one, ambulances are *always *either coming towards you or away from you.
> 
> In the wider context of direction of sound, that's why we have ears on the opposite sides of our head?



Quite, so nothing to do with doppler effect .


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## classic33 (23 Jan 2018)

User3094 said:


> Unless you're unfortunate enough to be in one, ambulances are *always *either coming towards you or away from you.
> 
> In the wider context of direction of sound, that's why we have ears on the opposite sides of our head?


You've three roads of to one side, with buildings on each side of them, which one is on?


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## Profpointy (23 Jan 2018)

User said:


> Err... yes it is.



Perhaps you can explain how doppler effect helps you determine the direction a sound is coming from ?

I know what doppler effect is, so you can skip that bit.

I also know that at the instant a moving sound source passes you, you can infer it's now going away, but that's not the question either.


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## Pale Rider (23 Jan 2018)

User3094 said:


> What absolute twaddle. Look up the Doppler Effect for a start.



As you might now gather, the doppler effect will not help you with direction.

In a car, most of the siren sound comes through the roof, making it even harder to determine direction.

What we all instinctively do is use our other senses and existing knowledge.

You hear a siren and make the reasonable assumption it's on the road nearby, probably behind you so that's where you look.

A cyclist in the open air would have a better chance of determining direction, but it's still not easy without other information.


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## Phaeton (23 Jan 2018)

User said:


> The Doppler Effect allows you to determine whether or not a the vehicle is moving toward or away from you.


I will admit that I do not understand the science but I can only tell that the ambulance is coming towards me or going away from me due to the volume of the tone, I also have to use my eyes to distinguish which direction it's coming from & rely on the blue lights


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## Profpointy (23 Jan 2018)

User said:


> Let's move the goalposts back to where they were:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



ok the original claim was "direction" which I took literally, not least because I was looking around in all "directions" at a road junction at the weekend to determine where the sound of an ambulance was from. I don't believe doppler effect is any help with this.

Even on the approaching/ receding point, which is nothing to do with direction, unless you've a good sense of pitch and a good memory of the sound of a stationary ambulance I am sceptical that you'd know from the pitch if it's approaching or receding. If the pitch changes, fair enough - but since you'd have just seen it pass, that ain't relevant.


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## Profpointy (23 Jan 2018)

User3094 said:


> Towards you. So stop and you'll soon find out.



or away from you ?


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## Profpointy (23 Jan 2018)

User3094 said:


> Still twaddle. The car may mute the sound somewhat but thats it.



Just repeating "it's twaddle" does not make your point any more correct


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## Phaeton (23 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5126144, member: 45"]Let's not overcomplicate this. The cyclist's attitude is evidence enough that he could have managed it better. There were options other than putting himself in the position he did.[/QUOTE]Say what you see as Catchphrase says, He was a "knob" & more of a knob for trying to defend his knobbish actions.


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## mjr (23 Jan 2018)

Phaeton said:


> It is in my case I only have 1 working ear which is devoid of hearing in certain ranges, I cannot determine from which direction a sound comes from without turning my head & then it's still not 100% successful.


I have 2 sort-of working ears, but one ear is inconsistent in hearing in certain ranges (and it varies from day to day). It is rather difficult to tell which direction emergency vehicles are coming from and I get lots of practice cycling along A roads. It was easier when the siren used to have that crunch noise (pink or white noise) interspersed in it, but they seem to have stopped doing that - anyone know why?

Even so and even when listening to music while cycling, I still seem to hear emergency vehicles much sooner than motorists, so pulling over immediately would be very risky, as many motorists would take that as an invitation to crush me to the kerb. So far, I've always had time to reach the next safe space to stop (bus stop or whatever), but I might not always... but hey, plenty of motorists seem to foul up and get in the way but usually no-one comments about it. Why is everyone so keen to abuse that one cyclist? Is it that we expect all cyclists to be saints but everyone expects motorists to foul up?


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## Profpointy (23 Jan 2018)

User3094 said:


> Some '2 ear' science for you...
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interaural_time_difference



Quite - so not doppler effect.Sorted


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## mjr (23 Jan 2018)

User said:


> You slow down and pull to the side. Simples!


So you slow and pull to the side of the roundabout and get honked at by the ambulance whose driver wanted to turn left...


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## Phaeton (23 Jan 2018)

mjr said:


> Why is everyone so keen to abuse that one cyclist? Is it that we expect all cyclists to be saints but everyone expects motorists to foul up?


Because there appears to be a good consensus that the cyclist was a fault but he clearly doesn't think he was & decided to publicly blame the ambulance driver


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## Amanda P (23 Jan 2018)

It has nothing to do with the OP, but...

In an open environment - a road across a fen, say - a cyclist or pedestrian unhampered by being in a tin box could usually judge the direction a siren was approaching from quite easily - your brain uses the delay between a sound arriving at one ear and then the other to decide. In the event that it’s coming from directly in front or behind, a tiny movement of your head sorts it out.

An urban environment is quite different. Big buildings can block sound, so you can’t always hear the approach until much later. More importantly, sound will reflect and re-reflect off buildings like an enthusiastic break on a pool table, so that sirens can appear to be coming from all directions at once. If you can’t see the blue lights - because, on approach, they’re hidden by those same tall buildings or large vehicles - you have no other clues.

And in some circumstances, your best option, to clear the way for an ambulance is not to pull over but to keep rolling. There may not be anywhere safe to stop that doesn’t result in causing a new hazard, so best to keep moving towards where you CAN get clear.

Not, as I say, that that has anything much to do with the OP.


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## Phaeton (23 Jan 2018)

Amanda P said:


> And in some circumstances, your best option, to clear the way for an ambulance is not to pull over but to keep rolling. There may not be anywhere safe to stop that doesn’t result in causing a new hazard, so best to keep moving towards where you CAN get clear.


I was coming up the A38 on Friday afternoon in a 6 mile+ tailback a Fire engine was trying to come up the middle of the 2 lanes, but cars immediately stopping was causing a total blockage as there was nowhere for the cars behind to go, what was needed was like a rolling zip cars only moving to the side once the Fire engine got up to them, but in the meantime slowly moving forward with the flow.


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## Mugshot (23 Jan 2018)

Drago said:


> Blowing on the horn changes the tone of the wailers.


Well I never knew that


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## DaveReading (23 Jan 2018)

Phaeton said:


> I was coming up the A38 on Friday afternoon in a 6 mile+ tailback a Fire engine was trying to come up the middle of the 2 lanes, but cars immediately stopping was causing a total blockage as there was nowhere for the cars behind to go, what was needed was like a rolling zip cars only moving to the side once the Fire engine got up to them, but in the meantime slowly moving forward with the flow.



The French seem to have grasped that better than us Brits.

Not just ambulances, but I've seen VIPs with a police escort carving their own lane out of the traffic on the N1 between Le Bourget and Paris. Everyone just moves over a little à gauche or à droit with a Gallic shrug of their shoulders and tout le monde is happy.


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## winjim (23 Jan 2018)

Dogtrousers said:


> Unhelpful pedantic point:
> Not necessarily. The ambulance could be stationary, or it could be travelling in a circle, at the centre of which you are located.


Even less helpful and more pedantic point: an object travelling in a circle is constantly accelerating towards the centre of the circle.


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## Profpointy (23 Jan 2018)

User3094 said:


> And therefore also simultaneously away from it? The siren must sound really weird.



Pardon ?


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## Tim Hall (23 Jan 2018)

Dogtrousers said:


> Unhelpful pedantic point:
> Not necessarily. The ambulance could be stationary, or it could be travelling in a circle, at the centre of which you are located.





winjim said:


> Even less helpful and more pedantic point: an object travelling in a circle is constantly accelerating towards the centre of the circle.



The trouble with uniformly spherical ambulances in these sort of situations is that they tend to be in a vacuum, so you've got no chance of hearing them.


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## Mr Celine (23 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5126476, member: 9609"]

I guess the extra burden on the average drivers brain overloads it or something and then anything can happen, I once seen a woman try to get out of the way of a fire engine by crashing into a lamp post.

[/QUOTE]

Best one I saw was here. 







I was half way across the road and standing on the traffic island when I noticed an ambulance coming down Albert Place with its blue lights on. As it approached the junction the driver put the sirens on as well, which caused all of the traffic on the main road to immediately stop. It also made the driver of the one car that was in front of it stop. Exactly where the silver fiesta is. 
After a few seconds of deadlock I got fed up being deafened by the sirens so walked over, tapped on her window and yelled MOVE!


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## Racing roadkill (28 Jan 2018)

It takes seconds to let an emergency vehicle, on a shout, pass you. Why not just get out of the way? It’s a no brainer really.


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