# Magnetic copper bracelets - I'm a sceptic



## Salar (2 Jan 2020)

I've been given one of these for Christmas.

Now I'm a sceptic with this type of thing. Scientific studies state they don't work, yet many people say they do.

Are the scientific bods just protecting their own interests and those who use them are they experiencing the placebo effect.


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## LCpl Boiled Egg (2 Jan 2020)

Salar said:


> I've been given one of these for Christmas.
> 
> Now I'm a sceptic with this type of thing. *Scientific studies state they don't work*, yet many people say they do.
> 
> Are the scientific bods just protecting their own interests and those who use them are they experiencing the placebo effect.



There's your answer.


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## vickster (2 Jan 2020)

Salar said:


> I've been given one of these for Christmas.
> 
> Now I'm a sceptic with this type of thing. Scientific studies state they don't work, yet many people say they do.
> 
> Are the scientific bods just protecting their own interests and those who use them are they experiencing the placebo effect.


The placebo effect is real. Try it and see if it helps  (assuming you’re not allergic to copper)

what condition(s) are you seeking to relieve?


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## Threevok (2 Jan 2020)

My mam swears by them and has for years


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## Ian H (2 Jan 2020)

Quackery has always been a profitable enterprise.


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## winjim (2 Jan 2020)

Science is open to everyone. If the quacks want to try and prove they work, nobody is stopping them.


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## Phaeton (2 Jan 2020)

winjim said:


> Science is open to everyone. If the quacks want to try and prove they work, nobody is stopping them.


My mum always wore one when she was flying on holiday, it helped her keep calm, so it does work, science needs to prove it doesn't work for people who believes it does


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## derrick (2 Jan 2020)

Bin it. Or give it back next Christmas.


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## winjim (2 Jan 2020)

Phaeton said:


> My mum always wore one when she was flying on holiday, it helped her keep calm, so it does work, science needs to prove it doesn't work for people who believes it does


Do you mean 'work'? Or 'work better than placebo'?


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## Milzy (2 Jan 2020)

Won’t work but you’ll look like an old school factory worker like a welder or machinist.


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## Phaeton (2 Jan 2020)

winjim said:


> Do you mean 'work'? Or 'work better than placebo'?


I have no idea, as far as I know she never took a placebo' is that any different to a normal placebo or some Spanish or German version?


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## winjim (2 Jan 2020)

Phaeton said:


> I have no idea, as far as I know she never took a placebo' is that any different to a normal placebo or some Spanish or German version?


I'm trying to establish your criteria for 'work'. You say it kept her calm, but do you think it kept her calmer than, say, a lucky rabbit's foot would, or do you believe it was some property specific to the bracelet? Because that should be fairly simple to test.

You know what a placebo is, right?


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## snorri (2 Jan 2020)

Salar said:


> I've been given one of these for Christmas.


It hasn't cost you anything so nothing to lose, try it and see!


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## BoldonLad (2 Jan 2020)

If you like it.... wear it..... if you don't like it.... don't wear it.

It may or may not have a beneficial effect on any symptoms (real or imagined) you may/may not have.


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## winjim (2 Jan 2020)

What are you expecting it to do? The op mentions no specific claims. I thought they were for arthritis, but @Phaeton mentions keeping calm when flying which is a different thing altogether. Unless the airline's seats give you gyp I guess.


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## Yellow Saddle (2 Jan 2020)

Phaeton said:


> I have no idea, as far as I know she never took a placebo' is that any different to a normal placebo or some Spanish or German version?


I don't know about the German ones, but in Spain, even Placebo Domingo won't sing their praises.


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## Seevio (2 Jan 2020)

How does one magnetise copper?


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## roubaixtuesday (2 Jan 2020)

Seevio said:


> How does one magnetise copper?


 
I wondered about that too.

Presumably coppers are made of pig iron? 

I'll get my coat.


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## snorri (2 Jan 2020)

Seevio said:


> How does one magnetise copper?


I wondered about that, but discovered just 3 minutes ago, thanks to the wonders of the internet, the magnetism comes from small magnets inlaid into the inner surface of the wristband.


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## slowmotion (2 Jan 2020)

snorri said:


> I wondered about that, but discovered just 3 minutes ago, thanks to the wonders of the internet, the magnetism comes from small magnets inlaid into the inner surface of the wristband.


That makes them "copper bracelets with magnets", not "magnetic copper bracelets", doesn't it?


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## winjim (2 Jan 2020)

slowmotion said:


> That makes them "copper bracelets with magnets", not "magnetic copper bracelets", doesn't it?


Potato potato.


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## Edwardoka (2 Jan 2020)

I expect that a more efficient use of them would be to stick them in a furnace and then forge them into a more useful shape.
Like a fork to jab quacks in the eye with.

Also isn't it odd how EM hypersensitivity syndrome vanished as soon as mobile phones stopped using the 2G frequencies that audibly interfere with audio equipment? Magic, innit?


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## slowmotion (2 Jan 2020)

winjim said:


> Potato potato.


I'll settle for "copper magnetic bracelet".


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## MontyVeda (2 Jan 2020)

I remember my significant other coming back from town with one... she explained about the body's natural magnetic field and how the technology we're surrounded by in the modern world interferes with said magnetic field and the magnetic bracelet puts everything back in balance. I feigned interest but inside i was thinking _codswallop!_


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## Edwardoka (2 Jan 2020)

MontyVeda said:


> I remember my significant other coming back from town with one... she explained about the body's natural magnetic field and how the technology we're surrounded by in the modern world interferes with said magnetic field and the magnetic bracelet puts everything back in balance. I feigned interest but inside i was thinking _codswallop!_


The technology around us interferes with the body's natural magnetic field? What about the much much larger much much more powerful magnet we're sitting on top of?


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## Fab Foodie (2 Jan 2020)

Salar said:


> I've been given one of these for Christmas.
> 
> Now I'm a sceptic with this type of thing. Scientific studies state they don't work, yet many people say they do.
> 
> Are the scientific bods just protecting their own interests and those who use them are they experiencing the placebo effect.


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## Phaeton (2 Jan 2020)

winjim said:


> u know what a placebo is, right?


I know perfectly well however the more I read the less I'm certain you do?


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## Stompier (2 Jan 2020)

Copper scrap metal prices are about £3.50 per kg at the moment. See if you can find a few more, then weigh them in.


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## winjim (2 Jan 2020)

Phaeton said:


> I know perfectly well however the more I read the less I'm certain you do?


Sorry, I honestly thought you wanted to have a conversation about science and whether these bracelets 'work' or not. You clearly don't, which leaves me unsure as to why you quoted me in the first place. Possibly some type of humour that I don't understand. I'm sometimes not terribly good at it.


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## BoldonLad (2 Jan 2020)

MontyVeda said:


> I remember my significant other coming back from town with one... she explained about the body's natural magnetic field and how the technology we're surrounded by in the modern world interferes with said magnetic field and the magnetic bracelet puts everything back in balance. *I feigned interest but inside i was thinking *_*codswallop!*_



Probably a very wise choice


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## Drago (2 Jan 2020)

I have quite a collection of them and wear one all the time when I'm awake. Whether they work with any of my aches and pains is anyone's guess.

One thing is for sure - they're a lot nicer than statins!


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## Milkfloat (2 Jan 2020)

Seeing as the OP is a sceptic then the bracelet will not work as a placebo, you need to think it will work for it to actually work.


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## Phaeton (2 Jan 2020)

winjim said:


> Sorry, I honestly thought you wanted to have a conversation about science and whether these bracelets 'work' or not. You clearly don't, which leaves me unsure as to why you quoted me in the first place. Possibly some type of humour that I don't understand. I'm sometimes not terribly good at it.


Not at all, you claim to have scientific proof they don't work, I have factual evidence they do, so if you choose not to believe there is little I can do about it.


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## winjim (2 Jan 2020)

Phaeton said:


> Not at all, you claim to have scientific proof they don't work, I have factual evidence they do, so if you choose not to believe there is little I can do about it.


I don't claim to have scientific proof they don't work. In fact we haven't even settled on a definition of 'work', until we do that then nobody can reasonably make any claims at all.


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## Stompier (2 Jan 2020)

Phaeton said:


> My mum always wore one when she was flying on holiday, it helped her keep calm, so it does work, science needs to prove it doesn't work for people who believes it does



Science doesn't care what people believe.



Phaeton said:


> I have factual evidence they do



So let's see it.


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## winjim (2 Jan 2020)

Stompier said:


> Science doesn't care what people believe.


I think it very much does. Certainly in this case where any effects may be due to the placebo effect, of which belief is a strong part, and in the more general case where a belief can be expressed as a testable hypothesis.

Incidentally, this


Milkfloat said:


> Seeing as the OP is a sceptic then the bracelet will not work as a placebo, you need to think it will work for it to actually work.


may not be true. There have been studies which suggest that placebo can have some effect even when people know that's what they are being given.


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## Stompier (2 Jan 2020)

winjim said:


> and in the more general case where a belief can be expressed as a testable hypothesis.



Beliefs don't get tested - theories do. Massive difference. Theories have to have a basis in fact, before they can be tested. In that sense, beliefs are irrelevant to science.


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## Stompier (2 Jan 2020)

Stompier said:


> Beliefs don't get tested - theories do. Massive difference. Theories have to have a basis in fact, before they can be tested. In that sense - unless it can be theorized - beliefs have no meaning.


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## winjim (2 Jan 2020)

Stompier said:


> Beliefs don't get tested - theories do. Massive difference. Theories have to have a basis in fact, before they can be tested. In that sense, beliefs are irrelevant to science.


You form a theory based on the evidence gathered from the testing of hypotheses, or beliefs.

Somebody believes a copper bracelet 'works'. If we can agree on what is meant by 'works', then that belief can be tested.


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## Stompier (2 Jan 2020)

winjim said:


> You form a theory based on the evidence gathered from the testing of hypotheses, or beliefs.
> 
> Somebody believes a copper bracelet 'works'. If we can agree on what is meant by 'works', then that belief can be tested.



A belief is not the same as a hypothesis. You can't test beliefs. For example - you might 'believe' that Santa delivers everyone's presents on christmas eve. But you can't test that in science without first theorising how he might physically deliver several hundred million presents to several hundred million locations around the globe in only a matter of a few hours. Alternatively, you might 'believe' in the resurrection - but you can't test it scientifically without first developing a theory of how someone might return from the dead. It's not the belief that's being tested - it's the theory of the known or unknown physical events which might explain it. Let's leave 'belief' out of it?


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## classic33 (3 Jan 2020)

Stompier said:


> A belief is not the same as a hypothesis. You can't test beliefs. For example - you might 'believe' that Santa delivers everyone's presents on christmas eve. But you can't test that in science without first theorising how he might physically deliver several hundred million presents to several hundred million locations around the globe in only a matter of a few hours. Alternatively, you might 'believe' in the resurrection - but you can't test it scientifically without first developing a theory of how someone might return from the dead. It's not the belief that's being tested - it's the theory of the known or unknown physical events which might explain it. Let's leave 'belief' out of it?


That covers just about every medication on the market today. With many taken long term in the belief that they do help the condition they're being taken for.


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## lane (3 Jan 2020)

Do not wear them when cycling.


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## winjim (3 Jan 2020)

Stompier said:


> A belief is not the same as a hypothesis. You can't test beliefs. For example - you might 'believe' that Santa delivers everyone's presents on christmas eve. But you can't test that in science without first theorising how he might physically deliver several hundred million presents to several hundred million locations around the globe in only a matter of a few hours. Alternatively, you might 'believe' in the resurrection - but you can't test it scientifically without first developing a theory of how someone might return from the dead. It's not the belief that's being tested - it's the theory of the known or unknown physical events which might explain it. Let's leave 'belief' out of it?


You're jumping ahead of yourself, you don't need to start building convoluted models straight off the bat. It's perfectly reasonable to establish whether something works before you start thinking about how it might work. In your Santa example you could try and figure out how he might do it, the magic reindeer model or whatever, and come to a conclusion about how likely or unlikely it is, but that still doesn't tell you if he comes at all. He may well do it by some as yet unknown mechanism. In the first instance, all you've got to do is sit in a kid's bedroom on Christmas Eve and observe what happens. Then you can start building a model that you think explains your observations.

In the paper experiment that I'm attempting to construct around these bracelets, one plausible outcome is even that the subject's belief that they work is both the result, and the explanation for the result. Belief is part of what we're investigating.


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## Drago (3 Jan 2020)

Science can be a double edged sword - it has also failed to prove that they don't work.


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## steveindenmark (3 Jan 2020)

The power of the mind is a wonderous thing. If some people believe it works, why knock it? 

Magnetic bracelets are like religion. 😁


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## Phaeton (3 Jan 2020)

Drago said:


> Science can be a double edged sword - it has also failed to prove that they don't work.


That is because they have a difficulty in proving a negative


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## winjim (3 Jan 2020)

And because nobody, especially on this thread, has defined 'work'. There's no claim to test.


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## Drago (3 Jan 2020)

Phaeton said:


> That is because they have a difficulty in proving a negative


It would seem that few have actually tried.


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## cisamcgu (3 Jan 2020)

I'm with @winjim here. You cannot say if something works until you how "_work_" is defined. Anecdotal evidence about a single person is not relevant at this point.


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## Rocky (3 Jan 2020)

winjim said:


> And because nobody, especially on this thread, has defined 'work'. There's no claim to test.


This is what Karl Popper would have called pseudo science ..... statements, beliefs, or practices that are claimed to be both scientific and factual but are incompatible with the scientific method. So it seems a bit unfair for some here to condemn scientific method.

BTW - I’m impressed with your attempts to try and get people to frame an actual scientific question. I fear you are doomed to failure.


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## newfhouse (3 Jan 2020)

winjim said:


> And because nobody, especially on this thread, has defined 'work'. There's no claim to test.


Work means work.


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## PK99 (3 Jan 2020)

Report of Peer-Reviewed study

https://www.nhs.uk/news/older-people/copper-bracelets-and-arthritis/

edit:
and another
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3774818/


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## Stompier (3 Jan 2020)

classic33 said:


> That covers just about every medication on the market today. With many taken long term in the belief that they do help the condition they're being taken for.


But in order for a medicine to be approved it must have gone through a clinical trial process, so I’m not sure what you mean.


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## winjim (3 Jan 2020)

Brompton Bruce said:


> This is what Karl Popper would have called pseudo science ..... statements, beliefs, or practices that are claimed to be both scientific and factual but are incompatible with the scientific method. So it seems a bit unfair for some here to condemn scientific method.
> 
> BTW - I’m impressed with your attempts to try and get people to frame an actual scientific question. I fear you are doomed to failure.


It's a bit frustrating, because somebody quoted me, saying that science needed to do this, that or the other, but then declined to provide any further information that would enable us to discuss whether the investigation of this, that or the other was possible, desirable or had already been carried out.

TBH, at this point even just the vaguest definition of this, that or the other would be something. Throw me a bone, guys.


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## Threevok (3 Jan 2020)

If it's magic and it works - who cares ?
If it's science and it works - who cares ?
If it's a placebo and it works - who cares ?


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## winjim (3 Jan 2020)

Threevok said:


> If it's magic and it works - who cares ?
> If it's science and it works - who cares ?
> If it's a placebo and it works - who cares ?


If it's magic, it turns our entire understanding of the universe, matter and energy completely on its head and would be utterly revolutionary.

If it's science, it provides us with a basis to improve and refine it, to use it for therapeutic purposes for the benefit of many.

If it's placebo, then besides the definition of 'work' being debatable, there are potentially people making money from dishonest marketing and exploiting the vulnerable.

But we don't yet know what 'work' means.


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## Rocky (3 Jan 2020)

winjim said:


> If it's magic, it turns our entire understanding of the universe, matter and energy completely on its head and would be utterly revolutionary.
> 
> If it's science, it provides us with a basis to improve and refine it, to use it for therapeutic purposes for the benefit of many.
> 
> ...


And actually I’m still not clear what ‘it’ is.


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## Threevok (3 Jan 2020)

winjim said:


> If it's magic, it turns our entire understanding of the universe, matter and energy completely on its head and would be utterly revolutionary.
> 
> If it's science, it provides us with a basis to improve and refine it, to use it for therapeutic purposes for the benefit of many.
> 
> ...



I don't think my Mam cares about the mysteries of the universe, science, or debating the meaning of words

However, if you want take a look at _people making money from dishonest marketing, _you may want to start with cough medicine, cold and flu cures, etc


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## Phaeton (3 Jan 2020)

winjim said:


> If it's magic, it turns our entire understanding of the universe, matter and energy completely on its head and would be utterly revolutionary.


It's nothing new we've had religion for thousands if not millions of years


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## derrick (3 Jan 2020)

Phaeton said:


> It's nothing new we've had religion for thousands if not millions of years


There will always be gullable people.


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## Threevok (3 Jan 2020)

derrick said:


> There will always be gullable people.



or so they would have you believe


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## derrick (3 Jan 2020)

Threevok said:


> or so they would have you believe


No there will always be gullable people.😂


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## LCpl Boiled Egg (3 Jan 2020)




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## winjim (3 Jan 2020)

Phaeton said:


> It's nothing new we've had religion for thousands if not millions of years


Yes, and if somebody could demonstrate that any of those religions were true, it would be of such mind blowing significance that it would fundamentally change my attitude towards the whole of life, death, the planet, the universe, time matter and energy. That's my point.

Any answers to my points upthread yet, btw? What do these bracelet things do exactly?


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## Ian H (3 Jan 2020)

People who invest money and, more importantly, their credibility in a thing are less likely to admit that it doesn't work. No-one likes to admit they've been conned. Add this factor to poorly-understood but known placebo effects and you can have quite a potent predisposition to 'believe'.


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## snorri (3 Jan 2020)

Edwardoka said:


> What about the much much larger much much more powerful magnet we're sitting on top of?


I thought it was gravity that was holding me down, now you're telling me it's magnetism?


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## Edwardoka (3 Jan 2020)

snorri said:


> I thought it was gravity that was holding me down, now you're telling me it's magnetism?


I know you're being facetious, but have you ever had one of those moments of perspective where you can sense the entire world under you?

That's not to say that the earth's magnetic field isn't pretty potent - it's what stops the atmosphere and hydrosphere from being stripped by charged particles emanating from the sun, which is nice.


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## Milkfloat (3 Jan 2020)

winjim said:


> Any answers to my points upthread yet, btw? What do these bracelet things do exactly?



They make some people believe that they can reduce pain and stiffness and for improve physical function if they have osteoarthritis.


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## newfhouse (3 Jan 2020)

Edwardoka said:


> have you ever had one of those moments of perspective where you can sense the entire world under you?


On top, sometimes.


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## BoldonLad (3 Jan 2020)

Ian H said:


> People who invest money and, more importantly, their credibility in a thing are less likely to admit that it doesn't work. No-one likes to admit they've been conned. Add this factor to poorly-understood but known placebo effects and you can have quite a potent predisposition to 'believe'.



All of the above, plus, how does anyone know that a given person actually "has" the ailment claimed?

I have yet to meet anyone who has left a Doctors Surgery after being told "there is absolutely nothing wrong with you".


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## winjim (3 Jan 2020)

Milkfloat said:


> They make some people believe that they can reduce pain and stiffness and for improve physical function if they have osteoarthritis.


That's not what was mentioned upthread. The claim, such as it was, related to air travel.


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## Stompier (3 Jan 2020)

BoldonLad said:


> I have yet to meet anyone who has left a Doctors Surgery after being told "there is absolutely nothing wrong with you".



A friend of mine is a GP - he does it all the time. Well, quite a lot.


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## winjim (3 Jan 2020)

BoldonLad said:


> All of the above, plus, how does anyone know that a given person actually "has" the ailment claimed?
> 
> I have yet to meet anyone who has left a Doctors Surgery after being told "there is absolutely nothing wrong with you".


What's the definition of a healthy person?

Someone who hasn't had enough biochemical tests.


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## Edwardoka (3 Jan 2020)

winjim said:


> What's the definition of a healthy person?
> 
> Someone who hasn't had enough biochemical tests.


What do they call alternative medicine that works?

Medicine.


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## Stompier (3 Jan 2020)

Edwardoka said:


> What do they call alternative medicine that works?



Answer = an unproven claim.


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## Edwardoka (3 Jan 2020)

Stompier said:


> Answer = an unproven claim.


Okay, I should have said "what do they call alternative medicine that is proven to work?"


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## winjim (3 Jan 2020)

Time for a coffee. I'm just ensuring that I am copper replete by having some chocolate to eat...


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## Stompier (3 Jan 2020)

Edwardoka said:


> Okay, I should have said "what do they call alternative medicine that is proven to work?"


answer = 'dubious' ?

Are you thinking of any alternative remedy in particular?


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## winjim (3 Jan 2020)

Stompier said:


> answer = 'dubious' ?
> 
> Are you thinking of any alternative remedy in particular?


Willow bark?
Coca leaf?


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## Stompier (3 Jan 2020)

winjim said:


> Willow bark?
> Coca leaf?



I thought coca leaf was banned? And willow bark isn't really an 'alternative' (assuming you are talking about it's pain killing properties) considering it is a source of salicylate.


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## winjim (3 Jan 2020)

Stompier said:


> I thought coca leaf was banned? And willow bark isn't really an 'alternative' (assuming you are talking about it's pain killing properties) considering it is a *source of salicylate*.


Yes, that's the point. We saw it worked, investigated it, refined it, improved it, tested it, regulated it, and now it's just part of normal medicine.


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## Fab Foodie (3 Jan 2020)

snorri said:


> I thought it was gravity that was holding me down, now you're telling me it's magnetism?


Gravity's a myth...the Earth sucks....


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## Fab Foodie (3 Jan 2020)

Edwardoka said:


> Okay, I should have said "what do they call alternative medicine that is proven to work?"


Medicine!


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## BoldonLad (3 Jan 2020)

winjim said:


> What's the definition of a healthy person?
> 
> Someone who hasn't had enough biochemical tests.


Quite


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## nickyboy (3 Jan 2020)

Given that a placebo effect is a good and positive thing (providing it isn't achieved at some reckless cost) why not just let the copper bracelet wearers be? Tugging at the string of scientific method only reduces the placebo effect and, for chronic conditions like arthritis, what then?
I suspect most in the medical profession categorise these bracelets as "not doing any harm and seems to encourage overall well-being". Which can't be a bad thing, can it?


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## Globalti (3 Jan 2020)

A placebo story: when I was a student I had a third year job as English Assistant in Spain. I hated it and I was terribly homesick. I noticed that my hair had gone dull and was falling out in handfuls so at Christmas went to see my GP in England. He said I was under stress so gave me some nice little tablets, which made me feel much much better. On the day I left Spain I left the tabs on my bedside table and didn't remember them until a good hour later. Much later I told my sister, who is a nurse, about them and she told me they were just sugar placebos. A lot of reserch has been done to find the most effective size and colour for placebos and generally certain colours are better as uppers and other colours for or downers.


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## Milkfloat (3 Jan 2020)

winjim said:


> That's not what was mentioned upthread. The claim, such as it was, related to air travel.


OK, that particular person believes it helps them with air travel. Perhaps it does, scientifically I doubt it does anything except set off alarms at the scanners, but if it makes them feel better and they are calmer whilst flying this 'it works'.


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## Stompier (3 Jan 2020)

nickyboy said:


> Given that a placebo effect is a good and positive thing (providing it isn't achieved at some reckless cost) why not just let the copper bracelet wearers be? Tugging at the string of scientific method only reduces the placebo effect and, for chronic conditions like arthritis, what then?



If people are convinced they work, then they shouldn't let facts get in the way of their beliefs. 



nickyboy said:


> I suspect most in the medical profession categorise these bracelets as "not doing any harm and seems to encourage overall well-being". Which can't be a bad thing, can it?



'I suspect' sounds a bit like 'I believe'.


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## MontyVeda (3 Jan 2020)

Threevok said:


> ...
> 
> However, if you want take a look at _people making money from dishonest marketing, _you may want to start with cough medicine, cold and flu cures, etc


I'm yet to find anything that claims to cure colds and flu... they all treat the symptoms whilst the cold runs its course. 

harking back to magnetic bracelets being good for somehow correcting the body's natural magnetic field... that's what the bloke on the market told her, probably after he'd failed to flog her one by going down the arching joints or limbs route. One sales pitch for the elderly, another for the bohemian types.


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## winjim (3 Jan 2020)

Milkfloat said:


> OK, that particular person believes it helps them with air travel. Perhaps it does, scientifically I doubt it does anything except set off alarms at the scanners, but if it makes them feel better and they are calmer whilst flying this 'it works'.


Maybe, that's your definition. In order to proceed, I would need to agree one with the person making the claim. Ain't gonna happen. Incidentally, I would say that even if it makes only one person feel better, for one condition, in one specific circumstance, as placebo, that could still be considered, scientifically, to 'work'. It just means that to investigate it we would need to look at the placebo effect rather than any property of copper or magnets. It's still science.


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## nickyboy (3 Jan 2020)

Stompier said:


> If people are convinced they work, then they shouldn't let facts get in the way of their beliefs.
> 
> 
> 
> 'I suspect' sounds a bit like 'I believe'.


Look, you know they don't work, I know they don't work. But they produce a positive measurable "wellness" effect on the wearer. Why try to burst their bubbles with facts? All that you achieve is to reduce the positive effect and that can't be a good thing, can it?


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## Rocky (3 Jan 2020)

nickyboy said:


> Look, you know they don't work, I know they don't work. But they produce a positive measurable "wellness" effect on the wearer. Why try to burst their bubbles with facts? All that you achieve is to reduce the positive effect and that can't be a good thing, can it?


I suppose it becomes important when there’s a demand that they are provided as a treatment, say, by the NHS. Should the public fund such things as this or homeopathy? Some say yes. I’d say no.


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## PK99 (3 Jan 2020)

Stompier said:


> *If people are convinced they work, then they shouldn't let facts get in the way of their beliefs*.
> '.



Some people are convinced Homeopathic tretments can prevent measles or cure autism.

Would you say the same to them?


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## Rocky (3 Jan 2020)

PK99 said:


> Some people are convinced Homeopathic tretments can prevent measles or cure autism.
> 
> Would you say the same to them?


Or that diet alone can cure cancer. I agree - if these are held up as a viable treatment for a potentially dangerous but treatable disease, then there’s a problem.


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## Milkfloat (3 Jan 2020)

winjim said:


> Maybe, that's your definition. In order to proceed, I would need to agree one with the person making the claim. Ain't gonna happen. Incidentally, I would say that even if it makes only one person feel better, for one condition, in one specific circumstance, as placebo, that could still be considered, scientifically, to 'work'. It just means that to investigate it we would need to look at the placebo effect rather than any property of copper or magnets. It's still science.


Absolutely - from a science point of view it is total horse dung, but if people are feeling positive effects by wearing them due to the placebo effect, then great. However, as also mentioned, don't let it stop people getting proper medicine where possible. My own grandmother tried treating skin cancer with honey because she did not want to bother the NHS.


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## Edwardoka (3 Jan 2020)

I have no issue with people using the placebo effect to lessen their suffering. The issues I have with it is when people ascribe magical qualities to it, it promotes and legitimises hokey woo merchants (see also: anti-vaxx) or when it is used in a way that stops people seeking actual treatment.


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## BoldonLad (3 Jan 2020)

Brompton Bruce said:


> Or that diet alone can cure cancer. I agree - if these are held up as a viable treatment for a potentially dangerous but treatable disease, then there’s a problem.



Indeed. A good friend of mine was parted from several tens of thousands pounds, when his wife was diagnosed (too late) with Cancer, and, in desperation, he searched out various "quacks" who proposed outlandish diets. Did not work.

A similar dilemma arises even with "conventional" drug therapies, when small gains in life span are balanced against large sums of money, usually accompanied by emotional pleas.


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## winjim (3 Jan 2020)

Milkfloat said:


> My own grandmother tried treating skin cancer with honey because she did not want to bother the NHS.


Yikes, that's a new one on me.


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## PK99 (3 Jan 2020)

A bit of science into the discussion:

https://www.health.harvard.edu/mental-health/the-power-of-the-placebo-effect

_Placebos won't lower your cholesterol or shrink a tumor. Instead, placebos work on symptoms modulated by the brain, like the perception of pain. "Placebos may make you feel better, but they will not cure you," says Kaptchuk. "They have been shown to be most effective for conditions like pain management, stress-related insomnia, and cancer treatment side effects like fatigue and nausea."_

That fits well with the guy up thread who was losing his hair because of stress - a pharmaceutical intervention would have been wrong as would an admonition to "pull yourself together". The placebo sugar pill had the appearance of the former and the effect of the latter. (Edit) Good work by the GP!


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## Milkfloat (3 Jan 2020)

winjim said:


> Yikes, that's a new one on me.


She may have been ahead of the curve https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3385631/


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## Stompier (3 Jan 2020)

PK99 said:


> Some people are convinced Homeopathic tretments can prevent measles or cure autism.
> 
> Would you say the same to them?



No I wouldn't. I was speaking within the context of this thread - ie people who wear harmless copper bracelets.


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## Dayvo (3 Jan 2020)

Threevok said:


> My mam swears by them and has for years



Didn't seem to cure her Tourettes!


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## winjim (3 Jan 2020)

Stompier said:


> No I wouldn't. I was speaking within the context of this thread - ie people who wear harmless copper bracelets.


It's interesting to wonder where you'd draw the bullshit line though. GPs can't prescribe placebos any more, although they can suggest taking vitamins, trying homeopathy, antibiotics for viral infections etc. You need to consider risk and benefit to the patient, but also the potential of encouraging and legitimising charlatanism, which could be to the disbenefit of other more vulnerable patients.


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## Salar (3 Jan 2020)

Over one hundred posts and still going strong.

Didn't expect that.


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## winjim (3 Jan 2020)

Salar said:


> Over one hundred posts and still going strong.
> 
> Didn't expect that.


Yeah, I'm supposed to be revising but clearly bickering on the internet is much more interesting.


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## Stompier (3 Jan 2020)

winjim said:


> It's interesting to wonder where you'd draw the bullshit line though.



I'd say if it actually does 'no harm' (ie copper bracelets - although they don't appear to go any good either), then carry on. If on the other hand, your choices put others at risk (ie anti-vaxxers, etc) then they can fxxk right off.


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## Drago (3 Jan 2020)

I think we should fight over it. Lock is all in a room with an assortment of weapons, and any copper bracelet wearer who is dextrous enough to pick up a weapon is proof that they work


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## winjim (3 Jan 2020)

Drago said:


> I think we should fight over it. Lock is all in a room with an assortment of weapons, and any copper bracelet wearer who is dextrous enough to pick up a weapon is proof that they work


Bronze age weapons I presume.


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## Yellow Saddle (3 Jan 2020)

winjim said:


> Bronze age weapons I presume.


Oh no, you've now gone and introduced tin into the mix. It has some truly magical properties, some say.


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