# Smart energy meters, should I/shouldn't I?



## I like Skol (27 Jan 2017)

I have an email from my energy supplier saying they want to come and fit some new, super-funky, smart meters for me, free-of-charge, and this will save me money. I have been on Google!

Straight away this reveals two big fat lies!

The 'estimated' cost of the nationwide smart meter installation programme is £11 billion and this is being footed by the energy firms, who acknowledge that the cost will be passed onto the consumers. This means it is not f-o-c and that actually I will have to pay the cost regardless of whether I have the meters installed or not.
It will not save me any money. My energy cost will be the same and I will only save if I use the data available from a smart meter to reduce my usage. I am not stupid, I have a reasonable idea of what is a high power appliance and what is low power. It isn't rocket science and if you turn stuff off when not needed you will minimise power costs, simples.

So, are they a good thing or a bad thing? I can see benefits, automatic meter readings and no estimated bills. I can also see potential downsides, like what happens when the software gets a bug and starts over-reading or some malicious individual decides to hack into your power meters and start messing with the supply? I can see it clearly, some Chinese or Russian teenage computer geek sat in his bedroom with his mates, laughing as he says "watch this, I am going to switch off Britain for a laugh". He doesn't have to target the power stations, he can do it by recoding all the easily accessible, remotely connected, insecure power meters in each and every property in the country!

Not surprisingly, my fear is not unique and the idea has occurred to other people already!

Do I do it or not? I don't expect it will help me reduce my consumption to a significant degree, certainly not with two young boys in the house, but if I don't do it am I potentially missing something positive?

What says you?


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## classic33 (27 Jan 2017)

Soon have no say anyway. The letter is the subtle way of letting you know, whilst letting you have the "choice".


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## I like Skol (27 Jan 2017)

My biggest fear is that I would be allowing big brother into my house. I don't fear this in a foil hat, they are listening, kind of way. It is just that I am not a very good customer. I don't pay my bank anything because I never go overdrawn and don't use any of their paid-for bonus services. I shop around and get good deals. I pay my annual expenses as lump sums to avoid any fees and will always use the debit card if there is a fee for creditcard payments (creditcard balance is always settled in full each month).
I worry that the power companies will look at my usage data and decide they are not wringing enough out of me, so limit my access to the best deals. Whereas without that usage data they won't know which deals not to offer me.......


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## I like Skol (27 Jan 2017)

classic33 said:


> Soon have no say anyway. The letter is the subtle way of letting you know, whilst letting you have the "choice".


Not so sure about this. From the .gov website - www.gov.uk/guidance/smart-meters-how-they-work


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## nickyboy (27 Jan 2017)

Well given you're going to pay for it whether you have one or not, you can forget about the free/not free argument. All that matters is whether it will result in reduced consumption or not. I suspect you'll reduce consumption...a bit. It's like a water meter; at first you stop flushing the toilet etc to save water. Then you creep back into the old habits but probably never go back to the old consumption levels

Try not to worry about "big brother". I've got the same situation with the Hive which controls the central heating. When it disconnected for some reason I had to call them. The operator at the other end could see exactly what the status was of my Hive box, the ambient temperature it was recording, when it was next scheduled to switch on the heating etc etc. The power companies know how much you're consuming already via the metered bills. This is a bit more sophisticated but it's the same idea


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## SteveF (27 Jan 2017)

They will also recoup some of the costs by employing less "meter readers", some (if not all) will currently submit their own readings but they still occasionally send people out to check (at least here they do).


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## sight-pin (27 Jan 2017)

We have one installed by british gas, It's a handy bit of kit to keep an eye on the charges etc, we also now have free electric one day a week between 9am til 5pm.................It's not as if we would choose that day to do all the washing and tumble drying


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## Shaun (27 Jan 2017)

I'd go for it - it would avoid those situations where the person sent to read the meter sneaks up to your front door, drops a "no one in" card through your letterbox, and makes a quick exit.


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## Kestevan (27 Jan 2017)

Not 100% sure or not if this is the case but I remember hearing (money program radio 4 perhaps) that the power companies had yet to agree on a smart meter standard and were all offering their own version. This then limited your ability to easily and cheaply switch suppliers to find the best deal.

As someone who moves suppliers almost every year in order to keep costs down this has made me think twice about any change.


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## classic33 (27 Jan 2017)

Shaun said:


> I'd go for it - it would avoid those situations where the person sent to read the meter sneaks up to your front door, drops a "no one in" card through your letterbox, and makes a quick exit.


Given the right reader, this should be a thing of the past. The meters can be read from outside most properties.

Link your phone/computer up via Bluetooth to the meter.


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## Lonestar (27 Jan 2017)

It runs on a battery though,doesn't it?


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## sight-pin (27 Jan 2017)

Our s/meter is plugged in in the kitchen, not sure about other end though....never looked tbh.
Edit; It works by wifi, so must be something in the electric and gas meters.


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## fossyant (27 Jan 2017)

I know not to spend 6 weeks in hospital again. The family blew through a fortune in electric. Dryer on all the time and electric heating on the conservatory.

We had one of those freebe meters a few years back but haven't used it in the last few years. Don't think I'll be bothering. The smart thermostat like hive might be worth looking into.


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## I like Skol (27 Jan 2017)

fossyant said:


> I know not to spend 6 weeks in hospital again. The family blew through a fortune in electric.


That is part of the problem, and what will ultimately undermine the effectiveness of most smart meter apps. I, as the bill payer, may be anal enough to analyse the usage and work out what is the most efficient way of doing things, but what is the point when I can't even get the rest of the family to stack the dishwasher so the plates aren't touching? If they are not interested then they don't buy in, and there it falls.


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## fossyant (27 Jan 2017)

My son's gaming PC uses a whole lot of power..... Bit stuffed really


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## spen666 (27 Jan 2017)

I am currently in a long running dispute with a power company over my bills and the service they provide.

They have been repeatedly invited to issue county court proceedings over the disputed debt. They won't, I suspect because they would have to disclose forged records alleging meetings that never took place etc.

We are at a stalemate as I wont pay them. They wont sue me and they wont let me change supplier

They every so often threaten to seek a warrant of entry to my home.... I reply reminding them of their legal duty of full disclosure and specifically state my grievances again, so they are in no doubt. They always back down as they cannot get a warrant in such circumstances.

With a smart meter, they would be able to disconnect my supply without entering my home. Thus any rights as a consumer or leverage you have are effectively gone.

Smart meter? Not for me


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## Kestevan (27 Jan 2017)

My lot refuse to accept that a switch can be used to actually turn something _off.... _and apparently it's illegal to own a telly or PC that's not turned on.

I can trace the path that the teenager used on returning home... Kitchen light on and heating on full so your eyes melt when you walk in.... Coatroom light on, Hallway light on, livingroom light and telly on, bathroom light on, stairs light on, upstairs landing lights on, bedroom light on. 

Oh and all the doors will be open too.....meanwhile teenager is asleep or out.

_and breathe....._


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## I like Skol (27 Jan 2017)

Kestevan said:


> Not 100% sure or not if this is the case but I remember hearing (money program radio 4 perhaps) that the power companies had yet to agree on a smart meter standard and were all offering their own version. This then limited your ability to easily and cheaply switch suppliers to find the best deal.





spen666 said:


> I am currently in a long running dispute with a power company over my bills and the service they provide.
> ...........With a smart meter, they would be able to disconnect my supply without entering my home. Thus any rights as a consumer or leverage you have are effectively gone.



These are exactly the kind of real life drawbacks that I am worried about. It is all rosy when the sun is shining, but if the relationship with your energy provider turns chilly then you have effectively given away many of your rights.


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## accountantpete (27 Jan 2017)

I asked our Meter Reader about them and he had heard of security issues that still needed addressing.


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## rualexander (27 Jan 2017)

I had smart meters installed when I moved into this house 12 years ago and was told then that the company could read the meters remotely, etc.
But they never did, they just either sent the meter reader round or estimated the reading!
Two years ago, my 'smart' gas meter developed a fault and started recording gas usage when there was nothing being used, the power company did not believe me when I reported the fault and I had to call them several times to point out that the meter was clocking up gas flow even with the main gas valve turned off. Eventually they sent a guy out to replace the meter, and he just checked for leaks of which there were none, then fitted an old school mechanical meter.
The power company never accepted that the meter was faulty, but did eventually refund me for the spurious usage, 'as a courtesy gesture'!
The replacement not smart meter seems to be working ok but I am using slightly more gas than I was before the old meter went faulty, which raises questions about calibration of these meters.
Is there any other instance of metering equipment which is installed and then never calibrated again, over the course of many years useage?


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## Drago (27 Jan 2017)

I've not got one. I'm quite happy to spend less than 1 minute every quarter typing the numbers into my suppliers website. No incentive at all for me to bother even opening the door to someone who wants to fit one.


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## Brains (27 Jan 2017)

Sooner of later you will have to have a smart meter as the leki companies will be unable to bill using mechanical meters.

I recon you may get away with it for another 8 years or so, but by the mid 2020's they will simply cut off mechanical meters as being not up to current H&S standards.

So it's not a case of 'if' but 'when'


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## fossyant (27 Jan 2017)

I went with as many led lights as we could as the kids never turn them off.

The candle leds were best buy as those ruddy energy saving halogen bulbs used to blow all the time tripping the leccy. And they weren't cheap.


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## Drago (27 Jan 2017)

5kW solar is great. I hammer all my energy hungry appliances during the daytime when God is paying for it. On top of that the FIT payments pay 3/4 of my bill.


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## Brains (27 Jan 2017)

As an aside, once everyone in the area has got a smart meter, it is a very simple job for the companies to compare all the smart meter readings (weather it be water, gas or leki) in an area with the master meter for the area.
If the two don't tally they know they have a leak, or someone bypassing the meter.

So the days of filling your swimming pool, running your dope farm and heating the house for free are numbered.


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## Drago (27 Jan 2017)

...unless you drill through your party wall and hook into the back of one of your neighbours sockets


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## subaqua (27 Jan 2017)

Brains said:


> As an aside, once everyone in the area has got a smart meter, it is a very simple job for the companies to compare all the smart meter readings (weather it be water, gas or leki) in an area with the master meter for the area.
> If the two don't tally they know they have a leak, or someone bypassing the meter.
> 
> So the days of filling your swimming pool, running your dope farm and heating the house for free are numbered.



Would take a really crap electrical engineer to discredit all of that in about 40 seconds . 

Copper losses is the easiest one without thinking even remotely hard.


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## classic33 (27 Jan 2017)

subaqua said:


> Would take a really crap electrical engineer to discredit all of that in about 40 seconds .
> 
> Copper losses is the easiest one without thinking even remotely hard.


How are street lights metered?


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## Grant Fondo (27 Jan 2017)

Just go un-smart turn off lights and all gadgets in standby, wear Aran sweaters and only spend 5 mins in shower...there you go.


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## TwickenhamCyclist (27 Jan 2017)

I had them installed a few months ago - I like them and have found them useful - they have already saved me a fair bit and alerted me to usage I didn't know was happening - the meter gives me a lots of information about current and daily usage in monetary as well as unit terms - I noticed very quickly that my new combi boiler was using £1 to £1.50 worth of gas per day when the central heating was off and I hadn't drawn any hot water - made me look into the boiler settings and put it into economy mode - it no longer keeps a tank of ready to use piping hot water and i have to wait a few seconds longer for hot water to run - but I'm up a few hundred quid a year in theory already!


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## subaqua (27 Jan 2017)

classic33 said:


> How are street lights metered?


They aren't generally . It's called an unmetered supply for a reason ... there is a fixed charge to the local authority.


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## Milkfloat (27 Jan 2017)

I had a smart meter put in about 8 years ago. The gas worked for about 3 years before it died, the electric for about 4. None of the suppliers I have had since will fix it or support it. Going forward we will all have one, purely so the utility companies can hit us with surge pricing, like Economy 7 on steroids.


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## r04DiE (27 Jan 2017)

TwickenhamCyclist said:


> ... new combi boiler...





> ... no longer keeps a tank of ready to use piping hot water...


I didn't think combis used tanks. Isn't that the whole point of them?


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## slowmotion (27 Jan 2017)

[QUOTE 4656956, member: 259"]I don't live in the UK and so can't comment on the usefulness of the schemes there, but in Belgium we have a smart gas and electricity meter add-on that you buy for 60 euros a year.

It automatically switches you from one supplier to another, based on your usage, and if you don't save any money, they pay you back your 60 euros.

Apparently we saved a couple of hundred euros last year (nett of the cost of the boxes,) so it's worth doing, and I can see how much money my house is burning from the comfort of my phone app. [/QUOTE]
I can triple-guarantee that the utility spivs in the UK won't be giving consumers such a reasonable deal. Confusocracy rules round here.


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## Salty seadog (27 Jan 2017)

r04DiE said:


> I didn't think combis used tanks. Isn't that the whole point of them?



It's just a small tank inside the boiler, a couple of litres of water kept hot so you get hot water quickly at the tap.
Economy mode just turns of the heating of that small tank and you wait a little longer for the water to heat up.


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## TwickenhamCyclist (27 Jan 2017)

r04DiE said:


> I didn't think combis used tanks. Isn't that the whole point of them?


Pretty much yes, but they have a small internal tank/reservoir that can be kept hot so that when there is demand hot water comes out very quickly, what I didn't realise until I had the smart meter fitted was that my boiler was keeping this tank hot all through the day and night... its in an outside cupboard so, especially during the cold weather, it was firing up periodically throughout the day and night, which was a real wast as I really only draw hot water for a few minutes a day... its a Worcester Bosh and has an economy setting I didn't know about that turns this feature off so instead of a piping hot shower in 10 seconds I have to wait 20 seconds. Apparently many combi boilers do this and, if like me you don't use a lot of hot water, turning it off can save you a packet over the year...


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## TwickenhamCyclist (27 Jan 2017)

subaqua said:


> They aren't generally . It's called an unmetered supply for a reason ... there is a fixed charge to the local authority.


I knew an ex Royal Engineer many years ago who was heating his outdoor pool 24/7 for 'free' by wiring it up to the street light in the ally behind his house...


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## TwickenhamCyclist (27 Jan 2017)

slowmotion said:


> I can triple-guarantee that the utility spivs in the UK won't be giving consumers such a reasonable deal. Confusocracy rules round here.


You could look at this lot: https://www.uswitch.com/gas-electricity/guides/collective-purchasing-energy-guide/


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## Yellow Fang (27 Jan 2017)

One of the ideas behind smart meters is to try even out energy demand a bit. The idea is that when everyone goes to switch the kettle on during the adverts, they switch off your freezer and washing machine, or your heat pump, or electric car charger for five minutes, so they don't have to turn on another gas power station. It might save you money in future because the National Grid have to pay a higher rate when they have to buy a chunk of extra energy for a short time. They might make it worth your while to allow them to switch off some stuff, or they might charge you more if you don't.They have to be introduced carefully though because customers have a tendency to be sceptical. When some were introduced in American, they took their shotguns to them.


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## subaqua (28 Jan 2017)

Yellow Fang said:


> One of the ideas behind smart meters is to try even out energy demand a bit. The idea is that when everyone goes to switch the kettle on during the adverts, they switch off your freezer and washing machine, or your heat pump, or electric car charger for five minutes, so they don't have to turn on another gas power station. It might save you money in future because the National Grid have to pay a higher rate when they have to buy a chunk of extra energy for a short time. They might make it worth your while to allow them to switch off some stuff, or they might charge you more if you don't.They have to be introduced carefully though because customers have a tendency to be sceptical. When some were introduced in American, they took their shotguns to them.




without smart "plugs" or smart sockets, or smart appliances there is no way to do this. there would need to be a common standard worldwide for it to work. currently there is not one , even though there are several bits of software standards that could work. 

the trouble is no nation likes to be told what to do by a " governing body" even though they sit on them.


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## Brains (28 Jan 2017)

subaqua said:


> Would take a really crap electrical engineer to discredit all of that in about 40 seconds .
> 
> Copper losses is the easiest one without thinking even remotely hard.



Agreed, but the loss by copper, evaporation, or temperature are all known and are standard quantity's (LNG gas for example is about 3% depending on temperature) 
If you compare the figures for a single street, month to month, over time any leakage or theft will show up and can be isolated to a single property.


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## subaqua (28 Jan 2017)

Brains said:


> Agreed, but the loss by copper, evaporation, or temperature are all known and are standard quantity's (LNG gas for example is about 3% depending on temperature)
> If you compare the figures for a single street, month to month, over time any leakage or theft will show up and can be isolated to a single property.



So do you think substations have metering in them ? 
Although metering the HV and LV sides would be a good experiment on efficiency of the transformer . 
What about streetlights off the same distributor cable ? All the cabinets for fibre etc not on metered supplies off that distributor cable. 

And in the words of a wise engineer on the DNO . Never trust the GIS ! So being accurate about what's on what network is rather difficult .


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## I like Skol (28 Jan 2017)

Having just reread all the posts in this thread I have decided there are not enough (if any) positive arguments to counter any real or theoretical negatives of having a smart meter at this point in time. I will hold out a while and see what happens. Who knows, they may even pay me to swap when they are trying to mop up the last few stragglers?


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## subaqua (28 Jan 2017)

I like Skol said:


> Having just reread all the posts in this thread I have decided there are not enough (if any) positive arguments to counter any real or theoretical negatives of having a smart meter at this point in time. I will hold out a while and see what happens. Who knows, they may even pay me to swap when they are trying to mop up the last few stragglers?


That's what I am hoping as well .


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## r04DiE (29 Jan 2017)

Salty seadog said:


> It's just a small tank inside the boiler, a couple of litres of water kept hot so you get hot water quickly at the tap.
> Economy mode just turns of the heating of that small tank and you wait a little longer for the water to heat up.





TwickenhamCyclist said:


> Pretty much yes, but they have a small internal tank/reservoir that can be kept hot so that when there is demand hot water comes out very quickly, what I didn't realise until I had the smart meter fitted was that my boiler was keeping this tank hot all through the day and night... its in an outside cupboard so, especially during the cold weather, it was firing up periodically throughout the day and night, which was a real wast as I really only draw hot water for a few minutes a day... its a Worcester Bosh and has an economy setting I didn't know about that turns this feature off so instead of a piping hot shower in 10 seconds I have to wait 20 seconds. Apparently many combi boilers do this and, if like me you don't use a lot of hot water, turning it off can save you a packet over the year...


OK, guys! Thank you, I get what you mean now


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## r04DiE (29 Jan 2017)

User said:


> I must look at mine for this, it could be wasting loads of energy.


I think mine is on the water temp dial, it just has an 'e' symbol at about 2 O'Clock. That's on a Worcester Bosch.


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## Salty seadog (29 Jan 2017)

User said:


> I must look at mine for this, it could be wasting loads of energy.



Yep, mines a Worcester Bosch too. It has an Eco button on it which lights up when on and therefore doesn't heat the internal tank.


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## TwickenhamCyclist (29 Jan 2017)

User said:


> I must look at mine for this, it could be wasting loads of energy.


Think its a pretty common feature on combi boilers... makes sense if you use hot water regularly/have a busy household but defiantly worth turning off if you have low demand


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## TwickenhamCyclist (29 Jan 2017)

User13710 said:


> My boiler takes so long to get hot water to the tap that I waste a load of (metered) water. I do collect it in the summer and use it to water plant pots outside though.


And then the unused hot water in the pipe between the boiler and tap slowly cools down and you get a double hit... can't really see a way around it other than having the pipe run as short as possible between boiler and tap (not really a solution in most homes/ones with more than one hot tap) I believe that's why most washing machines no longer have a hot and a cold fill and just have the one cold fill only...


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## I like Skol (29 Jan 2017)

TwickenhamCyclist said:


> And then the unused hot water in the pipe between the boiler and tap slowly cools down and you get a double hit... can't really see a way around it other than having the pipe run as short as possible between boiler and tap (not really a solution in most homes/ones with more than one hot tap) I believe that's why most washing machines no longer have a hot and a cold fill and just have the one cold fill only...


It is why I mostly wash my hands in cold water unless they are particularly rank! I can't stomach the amount of water and energy wasted getting warm water to the tap for the few seconds needed. Unfortunately my wife chooses the luxury option every time........


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## Smokin Joe (29 Jan 2017)

Kestevan said:


> My lot refuse to accept that a switch can be used to actually turn something _off.... _and apparently it's illegal to own a telly or PC that's not turned on.
> 
> I can trace the path that the teenager used on returning home... Kitchen light on and heating on full so your eyes melt when you walk in.... Coatroom light on, Hallway light on, livingroom light and telly on, bathroom light on, stairs light on, upstairs landing lights on, bedroom light on.
> 
> ...


Mrs SJ's late mother lived with us for a few years  back in the early nineties. We'd go out to work and she'd turn the thermostat up because she was cold, which is fair enough but she'd blast the thing up to about thirty degrees. When she got too hot she didn't bother turning it back down but opened the doors and windows. We'd come in the find the boiler about to melt and a howling gale blowing through the house. When she moved out our gas bills dropped like a stone.


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## User6179 (17 Mar 2017)

Meter reader at the door for the fourth time in a year, I said I cant wait to get a smart meter and don't have to have my meter read every 3 months .
He said you wont believe this but we have been told to go into the houses with smart meters and read them as well 
What is the point of a smart meter then !
I take it they need in to check the meter is not tampered with anyway !?


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## classic33 (18 Mar 2017)

Eddy said:


> Meter reader at the door for the fourth time in a year, I said I cant wait to get a smart meter and don't have to have my meter read every 3 months .
> He said you wont believe this but we have been told to go into the houses with smart meters and read them as well
> What is the point of a smart meter then !
> I take it they need in to check the meter is not tampered with anyway !?


You on Eon by chance?


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## Drago (18 Mar 2017)

As long as my solar makes my mechanical meter run backwards during then day, I shan't be upgrading.


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## User6179 (18 Mar 2017)

classic33 said:


> You on Eon by chance?



Scottish Power


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## I like Skol (27 Jul 2017)

The bullying campaign has just stepped up a notch.....







The above snip from an email I just received does rather make it sound like I don't have a choice. I am still going to ignore them and try to resist any attempt to force me into accepting their version of how the world should be........


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## Drago (27 Jul 2017)

Your current meter belongs to the local network operator, not E.ON. ignore them.


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## Levo-Lon (27 Jul 2017)

Leave it until next year..
The new meters phase2 will make changing suppliers easier.
The old New smart meters dont ..so you have to get a meter fitted again when you change supplier so more arranging and pressure sales to keep you..


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## classic33 (27 Jul 2017)

I like Skol said:


> The bullying campaign has just stepped up a notch.....
> 
> View attachment 364574
> 
> ...


Which




ofgem.gov.uk




You can just turn round and say you don't want one. Should they phone. Carry on after that it becomes harrassment.


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## Piemaster (27 Jul 2017)

TwickenhamCyclist said:


> And then the unused hot water in the pipe between the boiler and tap slowly cools down and you get a double hit... can't really see a way around it other than having the pipe run as short as possible between boiler and tap (not really a solution in most homes/ones with more than one hot tap) I believe that's why most washing machines no longer have a hot and a cold fill and just have the one cold fill only...


Agreed, and with a newer washing machine the quantity of water used probably means it will be full by the time the hot gets to it, after all they don't run the water until it comes through hot and 30/40 degree washes are the norm now.


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## Levo-Lon (27 Jul 2017)

Washing machines are nearly all cold fill these days tho our LG has both..


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## I like Skol (27 Jul 2017)

[QUOTE 4896848, member: 45"]I keep getting phone messages from BG to arrange a fitting date. I'm ignoring them.[/QUOTE]
But does this mean we are turning into paranoid cranky old men or are our reservations justified?


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## Levo-Lon (27 Jul 2017)

Reservations are justified..wait until next year


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## Drago (27 Jul 2017)

I'm 48, nearly 49. Never needed one before, don't need it now. I'll be dead in the cold, cold ground before I have a smart meter, smart phone, or anything else preceded by the word 'smart'.


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## classic33 (27 Jul 2017)

Drago said:


> I'm 48, nearly 49. Never needed one before, don't need it now. I'll be dead in the cold, cold ground before I have a smart meter, smart phone, or anything else preceded by the word 'smart'.


Smart Ass?


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## Drago (27 Jul 2017)

Except a smart bomb. I'd like a few of them.


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## Dan B (27 Jul 2017)

So this is interesting. The meters may be (at least temporarily) "smart", but the people organising the rollout sure aren't

http://www.nickhunn.com/the-uk-may-need-to-replace-20-million-smart-meters/


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## Wobblers (27 Jul 2017)

nickyboy said:


> Try not to worry about "big brother". I've got the same situation with the Hive which controls the central heating. When it disconnected for some reason I had to call them. The operator at the other end could see exactly what the status was of my Hive box, the ambient temperature it was recording, when it was next scheduled to switch on the heating etc etc. The power companies know how much you're consuming already via the metered bills. T*his is a bit more sophisticated but it's the same idea*



No, it isn't the same idea. A conventional meter measures consumption over a time period of months - each time it's read, in other words. A smart meter acquires this data *continuously*. It is trivial for the power company to tell when you get up in the morning, have a shower, when you get home, what time you take the kids to school, when you go to bed. All very useful data - with a confirmed name and identity attached - to sell to the usual data aggregator suspects such as Google. You can be quite sure that this is not to _your _benefit.

Worse, this is all on an antiquated protocol that's known to be insecure. Not merely can your local incompetent energy company get this stuff, so can any scriptkiddy with a laptop. Imagine being able to go down a street and be able to tell with certaincy which houses are not currently occupied. A burglar's dream!

Incidentally, your Hive thermostat has similar flaws. Like most of the Internet of Tat Things, it's a security nightmare just waiting to happen. I hope they've not done something silly like hard code administrator passwords into the firmware...


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## dave r (27 Jul 2017)

Dan B said:


> So this is interesting. The meters may be (at least temporarily) "smart", but the people organising the rollout sure aren't
> 
> http://www.nickhunn.com/the-uk-may-need-to-replace-20-million-smart-meters/




This sounds like a typical British farce.


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## Wobblers (27 Jul 2017)

Dan B said:


> So this is interesting. The meters may be (at least temporarily) "smart", but the people organising the rollout sure aren't
> 
> http://www.nickhunn.com/the-uk-may-need-to-replace-20-million-smart-meters/



Oh dear god, it's worse than I thought: all the usage data going to Crapita. How long before it's all left on a memory stick in the back of a taxi?


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## Drago (27 Jul 2017)

McWobble said:


> Not, it isn't the same idea. A conventional meter measures consumption over a time period of months - each time it's read, in other words. A smart meter acquires this data *continuously*. It is trivial for the power company to tell when you get up in the morning, have a shower, when you get home, what time you take the kids to school, when you go to bed. All very useful data - with a confirmed name and identity attached - to sell to the usual data aggregator suspects such as Google. You can be quite sure that this is not to _your _benefit.
> 
> Worse, this is all on an antiquated protocol that's known to be insecure. Not merely can your local incompetent energy company get this stuff, so can any scriptkiddy with a laptop. Imagine being able to go down a street and be able to tell with certaincy which houses are not currently occupied. A burglar's dream!
> 
> Incidentally, your Hive thermostat has similar flaws. Like most of the Intenet of Tat Things, it's a security nightmare just waiting to happen. I hope they've not done something silly like hard code administrator passwords into the firmware...



Pretty sure it wouldn't be difficult to grab the signal on SDR# or HDSDR and analyse it. I've done doorbells and my Ford remote key, and I'm not a skilled computerist.


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## I like Skol (27 Jul 2017)

Dan B said:


> So this is interesting. The meters may be (at least temporarily) "smart", but the people organising the rollout sure aren't
> 
> http://www.nickhunn.com/the-uk-may-need-to-replace-20-million-smart-meters/


A very interesting article (if true! My paranoia makes me question everything ). A key part for me is the suggestion that energy companies will be fined, potentially 10% of turnover, if they fail to convert all customers by the deadline. That makes my earlier speculation about being paid (bribed) to switch suddenly seem less ridiculous


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## classic33 (27 Jul 2017)

Families fear house fires caused by poorly installed SMART METERS


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## classic33 (28 Jul 2017)

odav said:


> There is a roll out of new water meters in the north west. They are not "smart" but are conventional meters with a Bluetooth device fitted. The meter readings will be picked up by receivers placed on bin lorries, as they basically visit every street. Trials showed that 99%+ readings will be picked up automatically.
> Given the savings this will generate as united utilities ditch meter readers, I'm wondering how much my bill will come down? Honest, I am!


Down! Chances are it'll go up.

United Utilities can't seem to agree on who's idea it was
 Neil Harper, Operational Development Manager 
or
 Gary Dixon, United Utilities’ domestic retail director


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## MontyVeda (28 Jul 2017)

I guess i won't have much say in the matter since i'm a tenant rather than a homeowner?


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## classic33 (28 Jul 2017)

MontyVeda said:


> I guess i won't have much say in the matter since i'm a tenant rather than a homeowner?


Wonder who'll be given the information from the meter, in cases like this.


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## wormo (28 Jul 2017)

No choice in matter all homes to have smart meters by 2020. Problem is that govt have given those organisations so little time to do this over, that training is being done on the job.


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## classic33 (28 Jul 2017)

wormo said:


> No choice in matter all homes to have smart meters by 2020. Problem is that govt have given those organisations so little time to do this over, that training is being done on the job.


You can refuse. The 2020 date was/is only a "hope for" date.


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## wormo (28 Jul 2017)

Other half is involved in roll out of these and they have been told all houses to be fitted. No refusals. That's what govt have told them.


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## swansonj (28 Jul 2017)

That's what government are saying in order to maximise the take-up - you don't get good success rates by starting with an admission that you don't really care. But multiple sources agree that, as long as the take-up is readonably high, no-one is going to use legal powers to enforce on the last few refusers.


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## Threevok (28 Jul 2017)

They are not compulsory - you can refuse

Don't believe any correspondence or phone calls you get, implying that you have no choice.

However, if you have an old meter that needs replacing, you may have to settle for whatever gets installed.

I said no to Eon putting them in my house. They didn't kick up much of a fuss anyway - the phone signal is pants where I live

The women at the office (who eats crisps on the outside of her head) had smart meters installed a few years ago. She still has to ring up British Gas to submit readings.


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## classic33 (28 Jul 2017)

wormo said:


> Other half is involved in roll out of these and they have been told all houses to be fitted. No refusals. That's what govt have told them.


British Gas have already been told No. Then they admitted that it was possible to refuse, not before.


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## wormo (28 Jul 2017)

Fine, you guys know best. I had if from somebody high up in the industry.


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## Threevok (28 Jul 2017)

If you get a chance to get it on catch up - have a look at last night's BBC Watchdog


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## byegad (28 Jul 2017)

Remember, the reason they want us all to have smart meters is so that, once we are all on board, they can charge more for power and gas at peak times. The longer some of us hold out the longer it will be before they can change the rate by the minute if they so wish.


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## Drago (28 Jul 2017)

Damn straight. Chez Drago shall be the last bastion of 1930's mechanical meter goodness.


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## swansonj (28 Jul 2017)

byegad said:


> Remember, the reason they want us all to have smart meters is so that, once we are all on board, they can charge more for power and gas at peak times. The longer some of us hold out the longer it will be before they can change the rate by the minute if they so wish.


Translation: the longer some of you hold out, the longer it is before as a society as a whole we start facing up to the environmental costs of our lifestyle choices and start adjusting our behaviour accordingly. 

Electricity generated at peak hours does not cost the same as electricity generated off-peak: why should we expect to pay the same?


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## Drago (28 Jul 2017)

Do they use cheaper coal at night then?


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## MiK1138 (28 Jul 2017)

Drago said:


> Do they use cheaper coal at night then?


Well its darker at night so the coal doesn't have to be so black


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## byegad (28 Jul 2017)

swansonj said:


> Translation: the longer some of you hold out, the longer it is before as a society as a whole we start facing up to the environmental costs of our lifestyle choices and start adjusting our behaviour accordingly.
> 
> Electricity generated at peak hours does not cost the same as electricity generated off-peak: why should we expect to pay the same?




Such naivety! 

Those providers who have us over a barrel, for food, energy and the like will always charge the maximum the market will bare. Given the chance to lower off-peak prices and raise peak prices, they will always raise the price for peak well above the reduction for off-peak. 

See petrol price rises when crude goes up versus petrol price reductions when crude goes down. The former is the day after crude goes up, the latter goes down three months after the price of crude goes down!


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## KnackeredBike (28 Jul 2017)

This smart meter refusal reminds me of the road pricing one a while back.

At the moment we all pay for enough capacity to meet the maximum possible demand.

Now of course almost all the time we don't need all that capacity. It's exactly like a road, those who make an effort to travel off peak are still paying for it to be wide enough at 8am on Monday morning.

I used to be on Economy 7 and put everything I could to run at night. Now I'm on a normal tariff and of course I run anything whenever I want, although this isn't an efficient use of grid capacity.

Smart meters mean that eventually those who are demanding peak capacity pay for it and those who don't, don't. Economy 7 shows that outside of peak times it is possible to generate electricity for relatively little cost. If people overall spread demand then the cost of electricity should get cheaper for the average consumer, because you don't have to pay for so many power stations to stand idle. Plus older, more polluting sources of power can be taken offline.

Perhaps even more critically as electric car use rises it simply won't work to have everyone getting home at 6pm and plugging in their car. Fill up when you want only works for petrol and diesel. It will be crucial that as much as possible they are charged overnight. A "smart" grid means that the meter can tell your car when to start charging for the cheapest electric.

Of course people worry about "sneaky" price rises but there is zero chance of price cuts unless we can get a smarter grid. I think some of the promotions that have come out like "free" electricity from British Gas shows that companies are happy to do a good deal on electricity which is costing them next to nothing.


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## Tim Hall (28 Jul 2017)

Drago said:


> Do they use cheaper coal at night then?


<me missing the point>
Snapshot of the grid just now shows that 1.57% of uk electricity comes from coal.


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## Drago (28 Jul 2017)

Do they use cheaper gas at night? Or cheaper uranium?

Solar doesn't work at night. Wind may or may not work at night, so they're still relying on either something that burns or which glows in the dark to generate off peak power, and doing that at midnight costs as much as at mid day.

The difference is demand. Ordinarily, demand dictates price as more purchasers make it easier for the sellers to profit from the commodity. However, in this case its the other way around - they're attempting to use the price to drive the demand. That has nothing to do with hugging bunnies.

Until mass energy storage is in place then then problem remains.


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## Threevok (28 Jul 2017)

A meter to tell you how much you are using - is the same as having a meter telling you your oxygen intake

When it comes to consumer savings - I'm not holding my breath


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## classic33 (28 Jul 2017)

wormo said:


> Fine, you guys know best. I had if from somebody high up in the industry.


There's a piece from OFGEM posted, that says you have the right to refuse.


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## KnackeredBike (28 Jul 2017)

Drago said:


> Do they use cheaper gas at night? Or cheaper uranium?


Part of the cost is the fuel but there is also a large cost in having loads of fully kitted out and staffed power stations that are largely unused just to meet peak demand.

If you work fewer assets harder you save money, as in almost any business.


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## Drago (28 Jul 2017)

KnackeredBike said:


> Part of the cost is the fuel but there is also a large cost in having loads of fully kitted out and staffed power stations that are largely unused just to meet peak demand.



Like they have to at night when the solar goes to bed?


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## MacB (28 Jul 2017)

Drago said:


> Like they have to at night when the solar goes to bed?



Pretty certain the Sun doesn't go to bed or turn off


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## KnackeredBike (28 Jul 2017)

Drago said:


> Like they have to at night when the solar goes to bed?


Yes but you have to plan for the 96.3% of generation that isn't solar as well.


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## Wobblers (28 Jul 2017)

swansonj said:


> Translation: the longer some of you hold out, the longer it is before as a society as a whole we start facing up to the environmental costs of our lifestyle choices and start adjusting our behaviour accordingly.
> 
> Electricity generated at peak hours does not cost the same as electricity generated off-peak: why should we expect to pay the same?



That's a little unfair. For starters, this enables the full market variability to be passed on to the consumer. Inevitably, you'll end up paying more when it's cold, and especially so when it's cold and still. At a stroke, all market transparency is lost. How could a market possibly be regarded as fair when you have no way of knowing what price you'll be charged in advance?

The other issue is that much domestic demand is inflexible. People aren't going to sit in the dark in winter just because it's more expensive to generate electricity. The evening peak is fixed by working hours - and few people have the option to change that. Charging more - which will inevitably clobber the poorest the most, especially since they have the least flexible work (for them, naturally, zero hours contracts are flexible to the employers, not the employees) - is deeply inequitous. Changing normal working practice to encourage more flexibility for the employee would be highly beneficial to society, not least by reducing the peak demands on both energy supply and transport. But this is something that has to come from the top, with government leading, and supported by appropriate legislation. Using sledgehammer tactics such as peak pricing is not the way to do it, not least as it affects those who are unable to change!


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## Dan B (28 Jul 2017)

I had a smart meter recently (until I switched supplier). It offered me absolutely no way to get cheaper electricity off-peak nor did it tell me when peak times are.

Whatever the amazing advances are that smart metering could provide in principle, in practice I found it no more useful than a dumb one. It didn't even tell me which appliance was eating all the juice


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## classic33 (28 Jul 2017)

McWobble said:


> That's a little unfair. For starters, this enables the full market variability to be passed on to the consumer. Inevitably, you'll end up paying more when it's cold, and especially so when it's cold and still. At a stroke, all market transparency is lost. How could a market possibly be regarded as fair when you have no way of knowing what price you'll be charged in advance?
> 
> The other issue is that much domestic demand is inflexible. People aren't going to sit in the dark in winter just because it's more expensive to generate electricity. The evening peak is fixed by working hours - and few people have the option to change that. Charging more - which will inevitably clobber the poorest the most, especially since they have the least flexible work (for them, naturally, zero hours contracts are flexible to the employers, not the employees) - is deeply inequitous. Changing normal working practice to encourage more flexibility for the employee would be highly beneficial to society, not least by reducing the peak demands on both energy supply and transport. But this is something that has to come from the top, with government leading, and supported by appropriate legislation. Using sledgehammer tactics such as peak pricing is not the way to do it, not least as it affects those who are unable to change!


There's the known rush now to get the kettles on, now Coronation Street has ended. Similar with any program that is watched on a regular basis.


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## swansonj (28 Jul 2017)

Dan B said:


> I had a smart meter recently (until I switched supplier). It offered me absolutely no way to get cheaper electricity off-peak nor did it tell me when peak times are.
> 
> Whatever the amazing advances are that smart metering could provide in principle, in practice I found it no more useful than a dumb one. It didn't even tell me which appliance was eating all the juice


That would be because the UK, in thrall to the dogma of competition but with decisions made by politicians who don't actually understand what it takes to make competition work, has made a complete horlicks of smart meters and is currently realising about 5% of the potential benefits. Those of us who sing their praises have a vision of what could happen with at least some of the remaining 95%.


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## Dan B (28 Jul 2017)

swansonj said:


> That would be because the UK, in thrall to the dogma of competition but with decisions made by politicians who don't actually understand what it takes to make competition work, has made a complete horlicks of smart meters and is currently realising about 5% of the potential benefits. Those of us who sing their praises have a vision of what could happen with at least some of the remaining 95%.


Well, quite. But (if I've understood the situation) nobody with a SMETS1 meters is going to get any of that 95% anyway, so why not carry on telling the suppliers to stuff their smart meters until SMETS2 is actually available. Or implemented. Or agreed on.


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## swansonj (29 Jul 2017)

Dan B said:


> Well, quite. But (if I've understood the situation) nobody with a SMETS1 meters is going to get any of that 95% anyway, so why not carry on telling the suppliers to stuff their smart meters until SMETS2 is actually available. Or implemented. Or agreed on.


There are some benefits from a current smart meter (no meter reading; access to the supplier's analysis of your energy use; remote checking of energy use). But I agree that they are minor. My beef is not with people who have not yet opted for a smart meter, but with people who seem opposed to the whole principle and determined to oppose till the bitter end.


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## swansonj (29 Jul 2017)

McWobble said:


> That's a little unfair. For starters, this enables the full market variability to be passed on to the consumer. Inevitably, you'll end up paying more when it's cold, and especially so when it's cold and still. At a stroke, all market transparency is lost. How could a market possibly be regarded as fair when you have no way of knowing what price you'll be charged in advance?
> 
> The other issue is that much domestic demand is inflexible. People aren't going to sit in the dark in winter just because it's more expensive to generate electricity. The evening peak is fixed by working hours - and few people have the option to change that. Charging more - which will inevitably clobber the poorest the most, especially since they have the least flexible work (for them, naturally, zero hours contracts are flexible to the employers, not the employees) - is deeply inequitous. Changing normal working practice to encourage more flexibility for the employee would be highly beneficial to society, not least by reducing the peak demands on both energy supply and transport. But this is something that has to come from the top, with government leading, and supported by appropriate legislation. Using sledgehammer tactics such as peak pricing is not the way to do it, not least as it affects those who are unable to change!


There are two (at least) issues in play. 

One is that adding choice (and therefore complexity and the ability to game) to a system usually advantages people who are already advantaged by financial and emotional capital, time, and education, and risks further disadvantaging the already disadvantaged. That, you and I can agree, is a Bad Thing. 

But the other is that when it comes to reducing environmental harm, part of what we need to make progress is transparency as to what the harm is. It is relatively common currency here that motor vehicles do enormous harm and have an enormous cost, but that cost is largely hidden from the people who make the choice to use motor vehicles, because it is aggregated and distributed through the NHS, the emergency services, the sacrifice of public space, the cost of roads,etc. Same applies to energy. Our use of energy is killing us all and our planet. A minimum step we surely need to make progress in reducing that harm is some basic transparency as to what the cost (with financial cost as a very crude marker for other costs) of our choices is. 

The paradigm that, for reasonably affluent people, we can turn on the switch on the wall whenever we like and use as much electricity as we want at a whim is deeply embedded in western culture after a century's unconscious acceptance but it desperately needs to change.


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## swansonj (29 Jul 2017)

Drago said:


> Do they use cheaper gas at night? Or cheaper uranium?
> 
> Solar doesn't work at night. Wind may or may not work at night, so they're still relying on either something that burns or which glows in the dark to generate off peak power, and doing that at midnight costs as much as at mid day.
> 
> ...


We are quite used to the principle that when a resource is finite, increased demand increases cost. That's what happens in transport (peak fares on railways have been around for yonks and all airlines now do the same), it happens with collectible art works, and isn't that partly why you can't get a discount on a Brompton?


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## User6179 (29 Jul 2017)

swansonj said:


> We are quite used to the principle that when a resource is finite, increased demand increases cost. That's what happens in transport (peak fares on railways have been around for yonks and all airlines now do the same), it happens with collectible art works, and isn't that partly why you can't get a discount on a Brompton?



Surely in transport it is cheaper when demand is higher, how can a full train or bus cost the company more than a half empty one ?


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## Wobblers (29 Jul 2017)

swansonj said:


> There are two (at least) issues in play.
> 
> One is that adding choice (and therefore complexity and the ability to game) to a system usually advantages people who are already advantaged by financial and emotional capital, time, and education, and risks further disadvantaging the already disadvantaged. That, you and I can agree, is a Bad Thing.
> 
> ...



This is the first time that it has been implied that smart meters will reduce environmental harm. Where's the evidence for this? There's already been at least one person on this thread who's said that they looked at the usage at first then forgot about it. Wasn't there some research done which indicated that usage slightly after a smart meter was installed, but rose to its former value after a few months - or have I selectively mis-remembered? If it's not changing peoples' behaviour, it's not having the desired effect. I see nothing to support the idea that smart meters will reduce the, as you rightly say, deeply embedded idea that we can use as much energy (not just electricity!) whenerver we please on a whim.

It is troubling that you haven't been able to suggest any reasons as to how smart meters will be beneficial to the disadvantaged. Nor have you addressed the privacy issues. Or the security issues.

When it comes to reducing environmental harm, 11 billion could make a substantial difference. More trains, for example. Or more buses. Upgrade our current CCGT power stations to the most modeern and efficient plant. It would cost a fraction of that to replace every CFL light with a state of the art LED lamp which has twice the efficacy. We could insulate every home in the country to modern standards. These last two would help most those who are on the lowest incomes - as opposed to the current solution which is to penalise those people whose circumstances dictate that they are unable to change. But smart meters, as well as being socially inequitous, have not been shown to be effective in reduing environmental harm.


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## Drago (29 Jul 2017)

I'm getting the claymores ready for when they come to try and replace mine.


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## swansonj (29 Jul 2017)

McWobble said:


> This is the first time that it has been implied that smart meters will reduce environmental harm. Where's the evidence for this? There's already been at least one person on this thread who's said that they looked at the usage at first then forgot about it. Wasn't there some research done which indicated that usage slightly after a smart meter was installed, but rose to its former value after a few months - or have I selectively mis-remembered? If it's not changing peoples' behaviour, it's not having the desired effect. I see nothing to support the idea that smart meters will reduce the, as you rightly say, deeply embedded idea that we can use as much energy (not just electricity!) whenerver we please on a whim.



Reducing people's consumption by letting them see what they using is part of the pathetic 5% of the potential benefits of smart meters that the UK is currently faffing around with. If that was the total benefit, they would indeed not be worth it. I'm sorry; I did not realise that those were the sole potential benefits you were assessing.

The real benefits of smart meters are that they facilitate smart grids. Consider, just for starters:
- real time demand-side management of electricity through automatic switching of appliances, so that we no longer need reserve on the grid system, and could move to lower security-of-supply standards, which in turn allow new renewables to be connected without time-consuming and problematic grid reinforcement
- distributed storage (through fixed batteries in houses and batteries in cars) that can be used to smooth out peaks and troughs in generation, greatly improving the usability of renewables
- likewise, by smoothing out otherwise random peaks in demand, enabling the big increase in electricity use we must have if we are to decarbonise transport (electric vehicles) and space heating (heat pumps) without having to massively expand the capacity of distribution networks
- and again, by reducing peak demand, reducing the need for the (usually) incredibly inefficient peak generating plants.



McWobble said:


> It is troubling that you haven't been able to suggest any reasons as to how smart meters will be beneficial to the disadvantaged. Nor have you addressed the privacy issues. Or the security issues.



I do not have answers to the security or privacy issues, which are real and made worse by some of the choices the UK has made. But considering how many of the technology-enabled advances our society has already embraced come with those same risks, I don't see those, troubling though they are, as sufficient reasons to reject further progress.


McWobble said:


> When it comes to reducing environmental harm, 11 billion could make a substantial difference. More trains, for example. Or more buses. Upgrade our current CCGT power stations to the most modeern and efficient plant. It would cost a fraction of that to replace every CFL light with a state of the art LED lamp which has twice the efficacy. We could insulate every home in the country to modern standards. These last two would help most those who are on the lowest incomes - as opposed to the current solution which is to penalise those people whose circumstances dictate that they are unable to change. But smart meters, as well as being socially inequitous, have not been shown to be effective in reduing environmental harm.


I don't see it as either/or. The way I see it, the challenge of global warming requires pretty well every contribution to a solution we can throw at it.

I have already agreed with you that, in practice, smart meters may well worsen social and economic discrepancies. Show me a realistic way to solve climate change without (among many other things) smart grids and I'd embrace it.


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## Drago (29 Jul 2017)

Easy. Use less power.


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## classic33 (30 Jul 2017)

swansonj said:


> Reducing people's consumption by letting them see what they using is part of the pathetic 5% of the potential benefits of smart meters that the UK is currently faffing around with. If that was the total benefit, they would indeed not be worth it. I'm sorry; I did not realise that those were the sole potential benefits you were assessing.
> 
> The real benefits of smart meters are that they facilitate smart grids. Consider, just for starters:
> - real time demand-side management of electricity through automatic switching of appliances, so that we no longer need reserve on the grid system, and could move to lower security-of-supply standards, which in turn allow new renewables to be connected without time-consuming and problematic grid reinforcement
> ...


Is gas on a grid?

Not everyone using it does so from a mains supply. The same can be said for heating oil. Often used together.


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## Wobblers (30 Jul 2017)

swansonj said:


> Reducing people's consumption by letting them see what they using is part of the pathetic 5% of the potential benefits of smart meters that the UK is currently faffing around with. If that was the total benefit, they would indeed not be worth it. I'm sorry; I did not realise that those were the sole potential benefits you were assessing.


This petulance is uncalled for.


> The real benefits of smart meters are that they facilitate smart grids. Consider, just for starters:
> - real time demand-side management of electricity through automatic switching of appliances, so that we no longer need reserve on the grid system, and could move to lower security-of-supply standards, which in turn allow new renewables to be connected without time-consuming and problematic grid reinforcement


Peak demand management, in other words. But the appliances need sufficient smart electronics to communicate with the smart meter. This is something that the current (and next) generation can't do. There isn't even a standard for it! Having "smart" appliances is an idea that has been around for a long time. Smart meters are not needed to implement them. The simplest idea is that appliances will be able to detect the grid frequency, and shut down when it drops too low. Communications through the power line could easily be implemented - as the data required is of very low bit rate, this is quite feasible. The necessary equipment would go in the local substation - which already has communication equipment for remote monitoring and control (eg. SCADA systems). It would dispense with the expensive data connection smart meters currently require over the 2G cellular network.


> - distributed storage (through fixed batteries in houses and batteries in cars) that can be used to smooth out peaks and troughs in generation, greatly improving the usability of renewables


Peak demand management. Again. And again, smart meters aren't required: there are tens of thousands of solar installations in the country without them (ask @Drago, for example). Similar control protocols as with smart appliances could easily and more cheaply used rather than the expensive smart meters being rolled out currently. _Which do not support such an application anyway! _

As for batteries, to store just one day's UK electricity demand using nickel-hydrogen batteries (the chemistry with the longest life span) would require the world's entire production of nickel for 2 years. Even the more modest goal of just levelling out peaks would absorb the world's entire production of nickel based batteries for some years. Except it's worse - the common battery chemistries have life expectancies that are an order of magnitude shorter than nickel-hydrogen. Using them as load levelling will dramatically shorten their lives. Never mind the (considerable, and justified) resistance from comsumers that the most expensive component of their vehicles is being exhausted in this manner, there is a very significant environmental cost. Nor have I gone into the energy losses - which at 10-20% will be substantial, and likely to be similar to that saved by not using peaking plant.


> - likewise, by smoothing out otherwise random peaks in demand, enabling the big increase in electricity use we must have if we are to decarbonise transport (electric vehicles) and space heating (heat pumps) without having to massively expand the capacity of distribution networks
> - and again, by reducing peak demand, reducing the need for the (usually) incredibly inefficient peak generating plants.


Peak demand management. Yet again. You've failed to show why smart meters would be of use - far less that 11 billion would do more to reduce energy demand than by getting every home in the country up to a decent standard of insulation. Especially when it is remembered that the technology to do all of this already exists, without necessitating them. And that really tells me everything I need to know, doesn't it?


> ... sufficient reasons to reject further progress.


Equating smart meters with progress has no place in a debate over their merits. This statement merely serves to call into question your objectivity.


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## Dan B (30 Jul 2017)

[QUOTE 4901050, member: 9609"]you have to go round with a multi meter to do that, some things still use power even when you think they are fully off (Ie no red light on) My desk top PC still uses power even with the switch at the back of the PSU turned off.[/QUOTE] 
Sure. But even then a one-off immediate reading is not a lot of use: take a fridge, for example - suppose I take a reading and it says 100W, what does that really tell me? Nothing whatsoever unless I know (a) whether the compressor was running or not; (b) how many hours of the day the compressor actually runs. Ditto for the heated towel rails, ditto for the desktop PC (I don't care if it's using 5W when it's turned off at the PSU, I do care if it's using 200W for eight hours a day that I thought it was using 5W), ditto for any other appliance whose consumption varies over the day.

"Get gas and leccy under control" is the biggest load of bullshit on our TVs right now that's not a car advert or a Government announcement


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## classic33 (31 Jul 2017)

[QUOTE 4901044, member: 9609"]Bear in mind I have still not seen a smart meter -* Are they wired into the consumer unit *so as they could potentially switch off freezers etc ? surely to do this houses would need rewired, at best you could just switch off circuits and in most or even all homes circuits will have appliances that would cause nuisance if switched off[/QUOTE]
They replace your existing meter.


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## classic33 (31 Jul 2017)

[QUOTE 4901066, member: 9609"]so how can they control anything ? or how do they measure anything other than overall consumption ? seems a bit pointless to me.[/QUOTE]
They don't let you control anything. What you get to see is your usage, supposedly in real time. The pad they give you to view this on is nowt but a gimmick. It just makes watching your meter easier.

The downside for the consumer is that the supply can be cut from outside the property, should the companies feel like doing so.


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## swansonj (31 Jul 2017)

McWobble said:


> This petulance is uncalled for.
> 
> Peak demand management, in other words. But the appliances need sufficient smart electronics to communicate with the smart meter. This is something that the current (and next) generation can't do. There isn't even a standard for it! Having "smart" appliances is an idea that has been around for a long time. Smart meters are not needed to implement them. The simplest idea is that appliances will be able to detect the grid frequency, and shut down when it drops too low. Communications through the power line could easily be implemented - as the data required is of very low bit rate, this is quite feasible. The necessary equipment would go in the local substation - which already has communication equipment for remote monitoring and control (eg. SCADA systems). It would dispense with the expensive data connection smart meters currently require over the 2G cellular network.
> 
> ...


My apology was genuine. You and I usually broadly agree on scientific/technical matters. I'd wasted a lot of energy not understanding why we were disagreeing on this before I twigged that the difference was between the current extremely limited functionality of smart meters and the potential future much greater functionality. So I apologised for not having realised that sooner. Now my apology seems to have caused offence, so I'm now wondering whether apologising for having apologised would make things better or worse...

To repeat what I have said several times: the extremely limited functionality of the smart meters being rolled out in the current UK programme are barely worth having. You and I are in (almost) complete agreement there: we're getting the downsides (cost, obviously, but also the security and privacy concerns you articulate) for insufficient benefit. I have no problem with people rejecting a current smart meter. My problem is with people who seem set on refusing ever to have a smart meter. But the essay required to explain why will have to wait till after today's Brompton-facilitated walk.


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## Drago (31 Jul 2017)

I'm refusing to have a smart meter, because I have eyes and a brain. I can see when the sun is out, and can tell when my panels are churning the electrons due to the comprehensive smart control panel, and that's when the energy hungry appliances go on. A smart meter can't do that for me - ergo, for someone in my situation they're a waste of resources and money


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## Wobblers (31 Jul 2017)

swansonj said:


> My apology was genuine. You and I usually broadly agree on scientific/technical matters. I'd wasted a lot of energy not understanding why we were disagreeing on this before I twigged that the difference was between the current extremely limited functionality of smart meters and the potential future much greater functionality. So I apologised for not having realised that sooner. Now my apology seems to have caused offence, so I'm now wondering whether apologising for having apologised would make things better or worse...
> 
> To repeat what I have said several times: the extremely limited functionality of the smart meters being rolled out in the current UK programme are barely worth having. You and I are in (almost) complete agreement there: we're getting the downsides (cost, obviously, but also the security and privacy concerns you articulate) for insufficient benefit. I have no problem with people rejecting a current smart meter. My problem is with people who seem set on refusing ever to have a smart meter. But the essay required to explain why will have to wait till after today's Brompton-facilitated walk.



 Oh, gosh, I completely misinterpreted that. Sorry swansonj over missing your apology! There's defniitely no need for you to apologise once more for my own ineptitude - that's my fault, I should have read your post more carefully and wound my neck in. 

And, yes, I do agree with you that smart grids are essential. We need to get on with defining the standards that'll be needed so that the grid and appliances can talk to each other - I doubt you'll disagree with me when I say that this is far more important than the current smart meter program! Currently [1], I'm of the belief that smart meters aren't required for a proper smart grid, but am willing to change my mind on the evidence. I do, however, see no need for the invasion of privacy - or the remote kill switch - the benefits of a smart grid require neither.

[1] That wasn't even planned as a pun....


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## swansonj (1 Aug 2017)

McWobble said:


> Oh, gosh, I completely misinterpreted that. Sorry swansonj over missing your apology! There's defniitely no need for you to apologise once more for my own ineptitude - that's my fault, I should have read your post more carefully and wound my neck in.
> 
> And, yes, I do agree with you that smart grids are essential. We need to get on with defining the standards that'll be needed so that the grid and appliances can talk to each other - I doubt you'll disagree with me when I say that this is far more important than the current smart meter program! Currently [1], I'm of the belief that smart meters aren't required for a proper smart grid, but am willing to change my mind on the evidence. I do, however, see no need for the invasion of privacy - or the remote kill switch - the benefits of a smart grid require neither.
> 
> [1] That wasn't even planned as a pun....


There are some people on Cyclechat who are more interested in picking an argument than in ferreting out the points of common understanding. I knew you were not one of those; I would have been mortified if you had thought I was one such; and I think we have just demonstrated how seeming initial disagreements often disguise a much larger measure of agreement once the parameters of the debate are better understood. Multiple Big Hugs all round; the next time we're on a Friday together I'm buying you a drink; and the essay I still need to write is why Smart Meters, while not necessary for a basic Smart Grid, are necessary for the fully developed Smart Grid that our society needs if we are to avoid making climate change even worse than it's already going to be.


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## classic33 (1 Aug 2017)

swansonj said:


> There are some people on Cyclechat who are more interested in picking an argument than in ferreting out the points of common understanding. I knew you were not one of those; I would have been mortified if you had thought I was one such; and I think we have just demonstrated how seeming initial disagreements often disguise a much larger measure of agreement once the parameters of the debate are better understood. Multiple Big Hugs all round; the next time we're on a Friday together I'm buying you a drink;* and the essay I still need to write is "Why Smart Meters, while not necessary for a basic Smart Grid, are necessary for the fully developed Smart Grid that our society needs if we are to avoid making climate change even worse than it's already going to be."*


Title of the essay might need a big of work!


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## AndyRM (1 Aug 2017)

We had one installed last Wednesday and it's gubbed our electricity somehow. Circuits keep tripping and some just can't be switched on without tripping the RCD. 

We've had an electrician out since 10.30 this morning trying to work out what's going on...


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## midlife (1 Aug 2017)

I see British Gas are putting up the price of electric 12.5 percent. I guess that might make people think about turning some lights off....


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## Drago (1 Aug 2017)

...or ditching British Gash.


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## classic33 (1 Aug 2017)

Drago said:


> ...or ditching British Gash.


Who happen to be part of the company behind the National Grid!


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## swansonj (1 Aug 2017)

The promised essay. 

My starting point is that we need smart grids, and smart meters are warranted by their role in enabling smart grids.

Consider some scenarios:
- the sun is shining at chateau @Drago and his solar panels are generating. But it's not shining elsewhere in the country. So we'd ideally like @Drago not to run his washing machine etc just yet but to export the maximum juice he can into the grid. We need to give him a financial incentive to agree to this - and we need a mechanism for signalling to him that this is what we'd like him to do.
- the strongest winds are moving from south to north across the country overnight. So ideally we'd like all the people in the south to get on and charge their electric cars as soon as possible, but the people in the north to delay starting charging till later in the night.
- a street of 200 homes now all have electric cars - but the electricity supply only has the capacity to charge 150 at once. If we rely on chance, we get away with it most of the time, but every now and again too many people try at once and a fuse blows. Either we upgrade the electricity supply- or we have a mechanism to coordinate the charging of cars.
- a ship drags an anchor over a submarine cable (or we have too many lightning strikes too quickly over the Pennines) and the UK looses a gigawatt of electricity instantaneously. Instead of having a power station sitting there all ready to generate at a moment's notice - the present situation - we simply delay charging everyone's electric cars for twenty minutes (or, if there aren't enough charging, ask those that are, to export from their batteries for a bit)

Note 1: it is common ground that this sort of functionality is way beyond what the current UK smart meter program is delivering - this is about future vision

Note 2: demand management delivered through frequency sensitivity could deliver the last scenario but not, I think, the others

Note 3: although I do happen to work in the industry, and although I had a very peripheral role in the smart meter program a few years ago, I am not an expert on system ops and I'm sure my colleagues who do would feel even my vision is distinctly limited

Note 4: batteries, as @McWobble correctly points out, are hard to envisage ever being rolled out to the extent necessary to solve our energy storage needs. But given that we're about to have a whole load of batteries connected to the grid for chunks of time anyway - in cars - we'd be crazy not to make what use of that we can. Other distributed storage is possible. There was a project on a Scottish island where they paid to insulate people's hot water tanks better, then, when the wind blew, they used the electricity to heat the water hotter than you usually would and store energy that way.


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## swansonj (1 Aug 2017)

classic33 said:


> Who happen to be part of the company behind the National Grid!


Not true.

Edit to be more informative: the national grid (as in the physical system) is owned and operated by National Grid (the company). National Grid is an independent company. It is not and never has been corporately connected with any supply company such as British Gas.


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## classic33 (1 Aug 2017)

swansonj said:


> Not true.
> 
> Edit to be more informative: the national grid (as in the physical system) is owned and operated by National Grid (the company). National Grid is an independent company. It is not and never has been corporately connected with any supply company such as British Gas.


National Grid Transco.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Grid_plc


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## Drago (1 Aug 2017)

I want to use the power I've generated when it suits me to do so. That's the raison d'être of my solar, to be able to spank the power hungry appliances during the day pretty much for free.


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## classic33 (1 Aug 2017)

Drago said:


> I want to use the power I've generated when it suits me to do so. That's the raison d'être of my solar, to be able to spank the power hungry appliances during the day pretty much for free.


Power mad!


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## swansonj (1 Aug 2017)

classic33 said:


> National Grid Transco.


National Grid Transco was a former name of what is now just National Grid. Neither then nor now was it owned by British Gas. 

The Transco bit that merged with National Grid to form National Grid Transco had previously demerged from British Gas. 

Trust me, National Grid is entirely separate from British Gas, RWE, SSE, Scottish Power, or any other supply company.


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## Drago (1 Aug 2017)

User said:


> Bigger picture



Absolutely, that's why everyone should have their own micro generation systems, then everyone can decrease reliance on the national grid.


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## Tanis8472 (1 Aug 2017)

swansonj said:


> National Grid Transco was a former name of what is now just National Grid. Neither then nor now was it owned by British Gas.
> 
> The Transco bit that merged with National Grid to form National Grid Transco had previously demerged from British Gas.
> 
> Trust me, National Grid is entirely separate from British Gas, RWE, SSE, Scottish Power, or any other supply company.


All foreign owned aren't they?


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## swansonj (1 Aug 2017)

Tanis8472 said:


> All foreign owned aren't they?


No. National Grid is not foreign owned except to whatever extent individual shareholders may be foreign.


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## Wobblers (2 Aug 2017)

swansonj said:


> There are some people on Cyclechat who are more interested in picking an argument than in ferreting out the points of common understanding. I knew you were not one of those; I would have been mortified if you had thought I was one such; and I think we have just demonstrated how seeming initial disagreements often disguise a much larger measure of agreement once the parameters of the debate are better understood. Multiple Big Hugs all round; the next time we're on a Friday together I'm buying you a drink; and the essay I still need to write is why Smart Meters, while not necessary for a basic Smart Grid, are necessary for the fully developed Smart Grid that our society needs if we are to avoid making climate change even worse than it's already going to be.



I have to confess that I took a cynical view of your post - which says nothing at all complimentary about me. The next FNR it'll be me buying the drinks, as recompense. (I suspect some discourse on conquering the world with solar power and a global HVDC grid may be involved...)

You suggest two scenarios in your smart meter essay that I hadn't considered. I imagine that appliances will need to have some electronics to be able to listetn to the smart grid. The protocol used to communicate between grid and appliance will have to be simple (given that they will be sold into many different countries), and secure. That suggests that best place for the more complex communications that your changing weather secnario needs are best placed in the smart meter. It might be possible to put it on one of the substation equipment racks - your other sceanrio of the 200 electric cars on the 150 car capacity supply needs that, but I suspect that smart meters are the most logical place.


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## swansonj (2 Aug 2017)

McWobble said:


> I have to confess that I took a cynical view of your post - which says nothing at all complimentary about me. The next FNR it'll be me buying the drinks, as recompense. (I suspect some discourse on conquering the world with solar power and a global HVDC grid may be involved...)
> 
> You suggest two scenarios in your smart meter essay that I hadn't considered. I imagine that appliances will need to have some electronics to be able to listetn to the smart grid. The protocol used to communicate between grid and appliance will have to be simple (given that they will be sold into many different countries), and secure. That suggests that best place for the more complex communications that your changing weather secnario needs are best placed in the smart meter. It might be possible to put it on one of the substation equipment racks - your other sceanrio of the 200 electric cars on the 150 car capacity supply needs that, but I suspect that smart meters are the most logical place.


I think the communication has to happen via a smart meter for business as well as engineering reasons. @Drago, bless him, has illustrated that people aren't going to contribute control of their electricity use for the greater good just out of the goodness of their hearts. The assumption is that people will be offered tariffs that make it attractive for them to do so - tariffs mediated through their meter.


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## swansonj (2 Aug 2017)

Drago said:


> Absolutely, that's why everyone should have their own micro generation systems, then everyone can decrease reliance on the national grid.


Everyone, that is, who owns a house with a sufficiently large south facing roof, or lives in a sufficiently windy unobstructed location, or has a river running through their grounds, or has enough land for a ground source heat pump. I'm with you that everyone should do what they can - but micro generation ain't anything like a full solution for societies where people live in cities.


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## Drago (2 Aug 2017)

Absolutely, it certainly isn't.

However, I installed my system to benefit me, not to prop up an ailing National Grid at peak times.


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## swansonj (2 Aug 2017)

Drago said:


> I want to use the power I've generated when it suits me to do so. That's the raison d'être of my solar, to be able to spank the power hungry appliances during the day pretty much for free.





Drago said:


> Absolutely, it certainly isn't.
> 
> However, I installed my system to benefit me, not to prop up an ailing National Grid at peak times.


See, that's the reason why I end up liking your posts so often. Like all right-wingers, you are selfish. But there's a charming transparency and lack of pretence about your selfishness....


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## Milkfloat (2 Aug 2017)

swansonj said:


> See, that's the reason why I end up liking your posts so often. Like all right-wingers, you are selfish. But there's a charming transparency and lack of pretence about your selfishness....



But you did not like his post!


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## Dan B (2 Aug 2017)

Milkfloat said:


> But you did not like his post!


Swansonj reads cyclechat for his own benefit, not to prop up Drago's ailing ego


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## Drago (2 Aug 2017)

The big picture is that the national grid didn't pay the 7 grand for my solar installation, so I'll use it to my benefit first, and theirs only when convenient to me.

Its the same with the rest of my possessions, and yours too Adrian. I paid for them, the first dibs in any benefit gained from them is mine.

If people weren't so rapaciously rampant with their energy consumption then it wouldn't be down to micro generators like me to try and meet demand. The clearest view of the big picture is one where the detractors aren't themselves wasting energy on frivolous things, such as powering internet connections to tell _me_ to think big picture.


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## Milkfloat (2 Aug 2017)

Dan B said:


> Swansonj reads cyclechat for his own benefit, not to prop up Drago's ailing ego


If only he was not so selfish and thought about the greater good of keeping @Drago happy and more importantly safely in his box


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## Drago (2 Aug 2017)

I am happy. Its an overcast day and my solar is still generating 1.4 kW. I'm using a tiny bit to work the internet, and the rest is going to the National Grid, and in 3 months I'll get a fat cheque for it. The cheque pretty much covers my electricity bill, so financially I'm self sufficient for electricity. Happy as Larry.


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## albion (11 Aug 2017)

Britain is pioneering Smart meters, paid for out of our bills.
However I read that many of the first generation are quite bad at calculation power flow, but they got round that by almost always overcalculating rather than undercalculating. That would mean smart users are subsidising the none smart users!

And it seems much of the first generation meter is incapable of switching supplier.
So if you want a cheap deal the smart meter turns out to be a lemon.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/consumer-affairs/six-reasons-say-no-smart-meter/

By the third generaton will we get smart grid capability?


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## albion (4 Sep 2017)

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/09/04/smart_meters_more_expensive_fewer_savings/

Cost is now at £420 per meter, much of that being advertising. Saves a grand sum of £11 per year, that is assuming they have improved their dire accuracy by now.


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## classic33 (4 Sep 2017)

albion said:


> https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/09/04/smart_meters_more_expensive_fewer_savings/
> 
> Cost is now at £420 per meter, much of that being advertising. Saves a grand sum of £11 per year, that is assuming they have improved their dire accuracy by now.


They've never been considered as an item that'll save money for the consumer though. Even the advertising is changing to reflect that.


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## albion (4 Sep 2017)

https://skintdad.co.uk/smart-meters-save-money/

This looks advertising. And 'People using smart meters are more confident in the accuracy of their bills (81 per cent) when compared to those with traditional meter'.

Personally, I'd like the analogue meter also left in there to get a good second opinion on the smart one.


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## classic33 (4 Sep 2017)

albion said:


> https://skintdad.co.uk/smart-meters-save-money/
> 
> This looks advertising. And 'People using smart meters are more confident in the accuracy of their bills (81 per cent) when compared to those with traditional meter'.
> 
> Personally, I'd like the analogue meter also left in there to get a good second opinion on the smart one.


The remaining 19% being on Pre-paid meters?


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## albion (4 Sep 2017)

The Powershop tariff?


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## I like Skol (10 Nov 2017)

Ho Ho!

Just had a call from OVO, my recently switched to energy supplier. They have engineers in the area at the moment for the next couple of weeks and would it be convenient to schedule a visit to fit smart meters for me?

I said no because;

I don't have to have them
I am not confident in their accuracy
I am waiting until an industry wide standardised unit is introduced so I do not have trouble if I want to swap suppliers in the future
He didn't disagree with any of my points and politely thanked me for my time. You would think he might have at least challenged me on the second point?


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## swansonj (10 Nov 2017)

I like Skol said:


> Ho Ho!
> 
> Just had a call from OVO, my recently switched to energy supplier. They have engineers in the area at the moment for the next couple of weeks and would it be convenient to schedule a visit to fit smart meters for me?
> 
> ...


Yes, I would challenge you on your second point 

Your third point is unassailable though. I had a smart meter fitted while I was with OVO. I have now reluctantly switched supplier to a cheaper but actually more green supplier, and my smart meter has reverted to dumb mode - I'm back to taking manual meter readings from the damn thing.


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## subaqua (10 Nov 2017)

classic33 said:


> Soon have no say anyway. The letter is the subtle way of letting you know, whilst letting you have the "choice".


Will need an act of parliament . And no they are useless. Brother fell for the spiel and still gets estimated bills .....


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## potsy (10 Nov 2017)

We recently had our electricity smart meter installed, I can say with certainty that it is now costing more.

It comes with a little mobile phone sized screen thing that has to be plugged into the wall socket, costs 80p a year!!


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## I like Skol (21 Nov 2018)

I like Skol said:


> Having just reread all the posts in this thread I have decided there are not enough (if any) positive arguments to counter any real or theoretical negatives of having a smart meter at this point in time. I will hold out a while and see what happens. Who knows, they may even pay me to swap when they are trying to mop up the last few stragglers?


Ho ho ho...…






I will hold out for a while longer I think


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## Drago (21 Nov 2018)

Thirty sovs? Tight gits!


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## Tanis8472 (21 Nov 2018)

Try switching Most are now making it a requirement to switch 

Bastids


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## Nigel-YZ1 (21 Nov 2018)

Our smart meter display doofer has been switched off for months.
We installed LED bulbs, saw the difference, and couldn't make things any better, so now we save the electricity that the display uses.
Plus our meter is British Gas, which probably won't talk to another provider.

Except for saving British Gas from paying meter readers, and stopping the angst of querying estimated bills, I can't see the point.


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## Ming the Merciless (21 Nov 2018)

No benefit what so ever to the consumer. Lots of benefit to the providers.


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## MikeG (21 Nov 2018)

YukonBoy said:


> No benefit what so ever to the consumer. Lots of benefit to the providers.



............and I can't wait to see the panic when some Russian hackers get into the system and switch off everyone's supply for 2 minutes. Or worse, tamper with the bills.


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## Bazzer (21 Nov 2018)

And if you have solar panels.....
https://utilityweek.co.uk/sta-warns-smart-meters-solar-panels-decoupled/


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## icowden (21 Nov 2018)

If you are going to switch - make sure it's to a second gen Smart Meter. Lots of companies are only offering the original version which is then pretty much tied to the company that supplied it. Second gen links to a national network which means that any supplier to take over receiving the data.


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## classic33 (21 Nov 2018)

MikeG said:


> ............and I can't wait to see the panic when some Russian hackers get into the system and switch off everyone's supply for 2 minutes. Or worse, tamper with the bills.


Done.

https://securityaffairs.co/wordpress/69819/iot/energy-smart-meters-hack.html


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## Drago (21 Nov 2018)

I'll be dead in the cold cold ground before In have a communist big brother smart meter at Dragofork Ranch.


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## classic33 (21 Nov 2018)

Would it be the cold that puts you there?


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## Ming the Merciless (23 Nov 2018)

Crap, late and £500 million over budget.

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/11/23/smart_meters_are_dog_toffee_says_nao/


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## Inertia (23 Nov 2018)

icowden said:


> If you are going to switch - make sure it's to a second gen Smart Meter. Lots of companies are only offering the original version which is then pretty much tied to the company that supplied it. Second gen links to a national network which means that any supplier to take over receiving the data.


They talked about smart meters on the news this morning. They mentioned the bit about them being tied to a company so when you switch they become ‘dumb’ again. the person pushing smart meters, he ignored that point.


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## plainlazy (23 Nov 2018)

Don't get one, the energy firms will have you by the short and curlies.
There is a hidden agenda’ which is time-of-day pricing. You will all be moaning when you find that you are paying a lot more for your gas and electric when you get up in the morning, when you come home from work and at weekends.


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## classic33 (24 Nov 2018)

plainlazy said:


> Don't get one, the energy firms will have you by the short and curlies.
> There is a hidden agenda’ which is time-of-day pricing. You will all be moaning when you find that you are paying a lot more for your gas and electric when you get up in the morning, when you come home from work and at weekends.


Surge pricing. Price can change every 30 minutes, if you opt in.


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## icowden (26 Nov 2018)

classic33 said:


> Surge pricing. Price can change every 30 minutes, if you opt in.



So make sure you get a good, ethical supplier. Bulb seem to be pretty good so far, with honest pricing and purchasing energy from renewable sources. I'm impressed with them. I think more people are going to move away from the big companies, due to this sort of behaviour.


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## swansonj (26 Nov 2018)

plainlazy said:


> Don't get one, the energy firms will have you by the short and curlies.
> There is a hidden agenda’ which is time-of-day pricing. You will all be moaning when you find that you are paying a lot more for your gas and electric when you get up in the morning, when you come home from work and at weekends.


Paying for a costly product in a way that is linked to the cost? Paying for an environmentally damaging product in a way that is linked to the extent of environmental damage? Pray tell me, why is that a bad thing?


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## classic33 (26 Nov 2018)

icowden said:


> So make sure you get a good, ethical supplier. Bulb seem to be pretty good so far, with honest pricing and purchasing energy from renewable sources. I'm impressed with them. I think more people are going to move away from the big companies, due to this sort of behaviour.


Three price rises this year for their customers. Possibly another before the year end.

Sold in its first year.


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## User6179 (26 Nov 2018)

classic33 said:


> Three price rises this year for their customers. Possibly another before the year end.
> 
> Sold in its first year.



And substantial losses, now trying to fund operating expenses by putting up direct debits so customers are paying in advance.


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## Drago (26 Nov 2018)

swansonj said:


> Paying for a costly product in a way that is linked to the cost? Paying for an environmentally damaging product in a way that is linked to the extent of environmental damage? Pray tell me, why is that a bad thing?



It's not a bad thing per se. But as aforementioned, it's unreliable, prone to obsolescence when changing providers, and gives power companies the ability to change pricing on the fly to maximise their profit opportunities, and that may be at odds with environmental protection.

The technology is immature and open to commercial abuse. Once the technology is proven, once there is an industry standard data format and protocol, and once there is legislation to properly govern how the suppliers use the live data, then I'll be elbowing my way to the front of the queue. Until then, I'll minimise my consumption without their help, which is quite feasible for any thinking person.


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## swansonj (26 Nov 2018)

Drago said:


> It's not a bad thing per se. But as aforementioned, it's unreliable, prone to obsolescence when changing providers, and gives power companies the ability to change pricing on the fly to maximise their profit opportunities, and that may be at odds with environmental protection.
> 
> The technology is immature and open to commercial abuse. Once the technology is proven, once there is an industry standard data format and protocol, and once there is legislation to properly govern how the suppliers use the live data, then I'll be elbowing my way to the front of the queue. Until then, I'll minimise my consumption without their help, which is quite feasible for any thinking person.


The average thinking person can reduce their consumption (the research evidence shows that providing even thinking people with data on their consumption triggers further reductions, and it did for me, but i’m happy to credit you with being more rigorous and rational than me). They can’t do so in response to real time factors. There is cloud covering Devon and Cornwall, so solar generation is reduced, but it will clear in an hour or two’s time, so could I delay running my washing machine or charging my electric car please? Not without smart meters. 

I agree with most of the rest of what you say. The UK has cocked up smart meters from start to finish. We gave them to suppliers not distributors, thereby effectively preventing standardisation. We attempted to standardise function rather than technology. And, in typical post Thatcher fashion, we tried to market them on the selfish short term saving to the individual (where the cost-benefit ratio was never big enough for it to be a safe investment) rather than the broader benefit to society or the longer term benefits to individuals. 

I stayed in California probably ten years ago, when every home had the identical single model of smart meter all installed by the same company who also controlled the data. 

But hey, I shouldn’t complain, smart meters gave me my one and only opportunity to appear before a House of Commons select committee....


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## Drago (26 Nov 2018)

And I in turn agree with much of what you say! 

At some points during the warm, bright summer we had the entire UKs electricity capacity was being met by renewable sources. Marvellous stuff. However, we may face the scenario where at tea time the entire nations needs may be met by renewable cotsing in effect nothing and the energy firms the will still crank up the cost because demand has risen. Thanks almost inevitable - they exist to maximise shareholder return and will do anything legal to maximise profit. Until that is legislated against the padlock is staying on my meter cupboard.

Now, thanks to my solar and the big controller screen doo dah I know exactly what my electric consumption is, but I'm not a hostage to demand pricing or any other smart meter grief.


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## icowden (27 Nov 2018)

Eddy said:


> ...now trying to fund operating expenses by putting up direct debits so customers are paying in advance.



Not really true. All price rises have been communicated in advance, and all customers can leave at any time without penalty. The direct debits are based on the cost of energy. Mine are pretty exact on what I've used and actually are usually slightly under rather than over - my account is usually in debit rather than credit. When they roll out SMETS2 Smart Meters then the direct debits will be for exactly what has been used. They are on a pilot at the moment but deliberately did not roll out SMETS1 Meters.


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## classic33 (27 Nov 2018)

icowden said:


> Not really true. All price rises have been communicated in advance, and all customers can leave at any time without penalty. The direct debits are based on the cost of energy. Mine are pretty exact on what I've used and actually are usually slightly under rather than over - my account is usually in debit rather than credit. When they roll out SMETS2 Smart Meters then the direct debits will be for exactly what has been used. They are on a pilot at the moment but deliberately did not roll out SMETS1 Meters.


I'd not expect the amount taken via Direct Debit to match what was used.


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## User6179 (27 Nov 2018)

icowden said:


> Not really true. All price rises have been communicated in advance, and all customers can leave at any time without penalty. The direct debits are based on the cost of energy. Mine are pretty exact on what I've used and actually are usually slightly under rather than over - my account is usually in debit rather than credit. When they roll out SMETS2 Smart Meters then the direct debits will be for exactly what has been used. They are on a pilot at the moment but deliberately did not roll out SMETS1 Meters.



I am seeing on twitter people who are already £2-300 in credit complaining because their direct debit has went up a lot, this has nothing to do with the price rises which you rightly say is warned well in advance, I am talking about putting customers direct debits up so they are always hundreds in credit.


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## Drago (27 Nov 2018)

classic33 said:


> I'd not expect the amount taken via Direct Debit to match what was used.



Paying for that which you have used? You old fashioned feller, you!


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## cisamcgu (27 Nov 2018)

Eddy said:


> I am seeing on twitter people who are already £2-300 in credit complaining because their direct debit has went up a lot, this has nothing to do with the price rises which you rightly say is warned well in advance, I am talking about putting customers direct debits up so they are always hundreds in credit.



I am always in credit with my supplier, OVO, and they pay my 5% for the privilege of holding my money (as long as the credit is <£1000) 

I'm not complaining, try getting 5% anywhere else !


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## User6179 (27 Nov 2018)

cisamcgu said:


> I am always in credit with my supplier, OVO, and they pay my 5% for the privilege of holding my money (as long as the credit is <£1000)
> 
> I'm not complaining, try getting 5% anywhere else !



I was just thinking about that when I wrote the previous post but I couldn't remember what company paid interest on the balance, I am not against companies using customers balances to fund the company if it keeps prices down, seems like a good idea but Bulb are just taking the piss, luring in customers with low monthly payments then in some cases doubling those payments.


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## icowden (28 Nov 2018)

Hmmm... maybe. The app usually tells you when your payment are too high and offers to reduce them.


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## Ming the Merciless (28 Nov 2018)

Wmart energy bars are far simpler.


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## Milkfloat (29 Nov 2018)

cisamcgu said:


> I am always in credit with my supplier, OVO, and they pay my 5% for the privilege of holding my money (as long as the credit is <£1000)
> 
> I'm not complaining, try getting 5% anywhere else !



If OVO goes bust it is not totally clear that your money is fully protected.


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## dave r (29 Nov 2018)

Milkfloat said:


> If OVO goes bust it is not totally clear that your money is fully protected.



I'm with OVO, have been for about three years, normally I keep just enough in the account to cover the bills. Perhaps that is a question we should be asking.


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## Phaeton (24 Feb 2020)

Bulb is pushing this big style currently, always concerns me that if it's good for them, it's likely to be bad for me, who has one/two fitted?


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## Bazzer (24 Feb 2020)

I believe the energy companies are being leaned upon by Government, hence the push.
Personally I don't see the benefit to the consumer.
More accurate bills? - When I provide a meter reading isn't that accurate?
Me understanding my usage? - I have LEDs throughout the house and if I am not in a room the lighting is off. If I use electricity, there is a reason for it. I don't deliberately leave unattended grinders, heaters, etc., running.
Reducing wastage? - As I understood it, a common standard could not be agreed between suppliers, so when 1st generation meters were fitted and suppliers were changed, the meter became a dumb meter. Hmm that was cost effective! That may have changed with later generations of meters, but hardly designed to encourage participation.
The electricity company understanding my usage? - Are they seriously incapable of understanding when demands are higher? I appreciate that this may change as more battery powered devices such as cars become more common, but don't the power supply companies have and gather this information? i.e. more demands on what is commonly called off peak?
The supply company providing me with "innovative tariffs"? - Let's see. Certainly when I recently switched at the end of my tariff from the crap that is Scottish Power, nothing "innovative" was offered by the newer and cheaper supplier and the tariff offered was not dependent upon me having a smart meter.
Will it save me money? - No; not unless I change my usage habits, which a meter will not do.

On the other hand, it seems to me the supply company have a great deal of control over you. If they can read the meter, subject of course to any formal proceedings which may have to be followed, can they not switch it off?
And if the electricity used is switched by the supply company to be paid for on the basis of perceived power rather than actual power, then the cost of electricity will rise because of the smart meter. As I understand it, this is because of LEDs not using the whole of the sine wave.


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## lane (24 Feb 2020)

Can't see any reason not to. I have them and at least you get up to date energy costs plus some fancy graphs.


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## lane (24 Feb 2020)

I like Skol said:


> That is part of the problem, and what will ultimately undermine the effectiveness of most smart meter apps. I, as the bill payer, may be anal enough to analyse the usage and work out what is the most efficient way of doing things, but what is the point when I can't even get the rest of the family to stack the dishwasher so the plates aren't touching? If they are not interested then they don't buy in, and there it falls.



Yes the kids are really concerned about global warming until it comes to taking a shorter shower or turning devices off when not in use.


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## Phaeton (24 Feb 2020)

lane said:


> Yes the kids are really concerned about global warming until it comes to taking a shorter shower or turning devices off when not in use.


Or even lights in a room they are no longer in


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## classic33 (24 Feb 2020)

Why do fewer devices actually have an "Off" button, favouring standby instead.


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## Mark pallister (24 Feb 2020)

Lonestar said:


> It runs on a battery though,doesn't it?


Mains for ours


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## Drago (24 Feb 2020)

Did George Orwell have a smart meter? No he ruddy well didn't. Case closed.


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## Tanis8472 (24 Feb 2020)

classic33 said:


> Why do fewer devices actually have an "Off" button, favouring standby instead.


Because people are lazy.


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## icowden (25 Feb 2020)

I'd say it's more about lack of patience than laziness. Devices on standby startup more quickly than devices that are completely off. 
Of course, lots of inroads are being made into reducing the amount of standby energy used...


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## CanucksTraveller (25 Feb 2020)

Phaeton said:


> Or even lights in a room they are no longer in





lane said:


> Yes the kids are really concerned about global warming until it comes to taking a shorter shower or turning devices off when not in use.



Amazing isn't it, my daughter is also a fervent eco-warrior, determined that her generation will save the planet, and good on her. 
But when it comes to lights, heat, and unending power for the laptop, Nintendo etc, all of a sudden the truth is inconvenient. I have explained at length where electricity and clean water come from, their impact, and who pays, but she appears to ignore the chats we've had.... 

_"Daaad_, it's only electric and water, it's free, it comes in through wires and pipes for nothing and it doesn't impact the environment. It's not like I'm burning coal."


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## numbnuts (25 Feb 2020)

npower keep asking me to have one, in January with a new plan they said I must have a meter fitted, I told them “if you fit one I'll change suppliers” not heard from them since.


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## Drago (25 Feb 2020)

CanucksTraveller said:


> Amazing isn't it, my daughter is also a fervent eco-warrior, determined that her generation will save the planet, and good on her.
> But when it comes to lights, heat, and unending power for the laptop, Nintendo etc, all of a sudden the truth is inconvenient. I have explained at length where electricity and clean water come from, their impact, and who pays, but she appears to ignore the chats we've had....
> 
> _"Daaad_, it's only electric and water, it's free, it comes in through wires and pipes for nothing and it doesn't impact the environment. It's not like I'm burning coal."


Not to mention the plastics in her gadgets, made from oil, and the rare earth minerals mined at enormous environmental expense.

Every one claims to care, but few care enough to give up even the slightest modern convenience.


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## Beebo (25 Feb 2020)

icowden said:


> I'd say it's more about lack of patience than laziness. Devices on standby startup more quickly than devices that are completely off.
> Of course, lots of inroads are being made into reducing the amount of standby energy used...


That’s interesting. If I turn my tv off at the wall it takes ages to reboot itself. Is standby more economical than turning it on and off.


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## neil_merseyside (25 Feb 2020)

Smart meters are about cutting off bad payers remotely, so without them having to gain entry by force.
Then inevitably they will also gain the ability to modulate power into a property by say cycling the power off and on overnight on a short cycle, to a fridge or freezer it really isn't going to matter (nor will the device care[1]) and I'll bet your supplier will know what is likely being used in any case, so if you've got a motor/heater running (washing machine or immersion) they'll be happy to bill for that usage and steal from someone else - well their potential usage.

[1] an ice cube in say a cup is a good idea in a freezer - if power has failed and the freezer then refreezes the melted ice cube acts as a warning to potentially iffy food (Steve Wright of R2 had a really bad experience of refrozen but spoiled food - ice cube is my idea).


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## snorri (25 Feb 2020)

Phaeton said:


> Bulb is pushing this big style currently, always concerns me that if it's good for them, it's likely to be bad for me, who has one/two fitted?


I've only been with Bulb for 7 months but have not see any encouragement to fit a smart meter, but I submit a meter reading monthly.


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## Phaeton (25 Feb 2020)

snorri said:


> I've only been with Bulb for 7 months but have not see any encouragement to fit a smart meter, but I submit a meter reading monthly.


Maybe they are being honest & the installers are actually in our area


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## snorri (25 Feb 2020)

Beebo said:


> That’s interesting. If I turn my tv off at the wall it takes ages to reboot itself. Is standby more economical than turning it on and off.


I had hoped I was saving a little by switching off at the wall after use, but have never checked. I suppose it depends on how often the tv is used, mine often goes more than a week without being used.


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## classic33 (25 Feb 2020)

_"The Energy Savings Trust states that up to £80 a year is wasted in the average home due to appliances left on standby."_

https://www.uswitch.com/energy-saving/guides/standby-savers/


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## DRM (25 Feb 2020)

numbnuts said:


> npower keep asking me to have one, in January with a new plan they said I must have a meter fitted, I told them “if you fit one I'll change suppliers” not heard from them since.


They keep making appointments for us, asking to confirm the booking which I duly ignore, they’re being taken over soon so no doubt someone else will be bombarding us with requests to fit one, my gut feeling is it won’t have any benefits for us, but lots for the supplier.


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## keithmac (25 Feb 2020)

Not Smart Meter related but my wife talked me into putting our Gas and Electric on Direct Debit last year.

EDF have managed to nigh on double it in a year, just as I expected they would...

Lesson learned, back to quarterly payments for me.


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## Phaeton (25 Feb 2020)

Not to worried about benefits to them, its negatives for me that concerns me


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## Tanis8472 (25 Feb 2020)

Pricing according to time of day!
I see no benefit to me. I turn off stuff when not in use.


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## Illaveago (25 Feb 2020)

Our smart meter has stopped working . Not sure if it is because we changed supplier or that it has just given up . It was working since the change over but not now . 
Apart from being able to read your meter from it I don't see the point of them . Are we supposed to sit by them all day switching things on and off just to see what each one does to the readings ?
We still have to take the meter readings and send them in each month .


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## I like Skol (26 Feb 2020)

Illaveago said:


> We still have to take the meter readings and send them in each month


Isn't that supposed to be the key point, accurate, remote billing?


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## Tanis8472 (26 Feb 2020)

Mine is accurate without it 
I give them a reading or they send someone.


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## wonderloaf (26 Feb 2020)

Just recently we've had to renew our gas & electricity tariff and it seems every company insists on a meter being fitted (this was through comparethemarket.com). We've been with EDF for a number of years and they've been very good so don't want to change as we've had very bad experiences with BG, Npower and Scottish & Southern (to the point where we nearly had to get the Ombudsman involved with S&S). So we've renewed with EDF again and capitulated to having a meter fitted, although on their website it says it will be a 2nd generation version that should be compatible with all suppliers ... we'll just have to wait and see.

But I've just realised that I've got their numbers blocked on my mobile and landline phones as we were getting so many calls previously asking 'when we would like to have the meter fitted?', although we hadn't asked or agreed to this .... must remember to unblock those numbers at some point


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## vickster (26 Feb 2020)

keithmac said:


> Not Smart Meter related but my wife talked me into putting our Gas and Electric on Direct Debit last year.
> 
> EDF have managed to nigh on double it in a year, just as I expected they would...
> 
> Lesson learned, back to quarterly payments for me.


If you have a big credit, ask them to return the extra and to set a DD that reflects actual usage. 
And do a check to confirm that you're getting a good tariff


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## dave r (26 Feb 2020)

vickster said:


> If you have a big credit, ask them to return the extra and to set a DD that reflects actual usage.
> And do a check to confirm that you're getting a good tariff



We're with OVO and I tend to treat the energy account as a savings account, they pay interest on the money in it and i can draw money out of the account, just have to leave some in to cover the next bill.


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## vickster (26 Feb 2020)

dave r said:


> We're with OVO and I tend to treat the energy account as a savings account, they pay interest on the money in it and i can draw money out of the account, just have to leave some in to cover the next bill.


That's fine assuming you couldn't be saving more with a different supplier on a cheaper tariff


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## icowden (26 Feb 2020)

There are a few things going on here.

You don't have to have a smart meter if you don't want one BUT...

The energy companies *have* to install Smart Meters in all homes or they will be fined by the government. This is a UK government initiative and despite the cynicism further up this page, the initiative is about trying to reduce energy usage. The rationale is that if you use a smart meter you can see how much power you are using and how much it is costing you, thus you will be encouraged to use energy better.

So, the energy companies have to encourage you to have a smart meter fitted but you don't have to use the console and your supplier can set it up to work like a dumb meter. To me there seems little advantage in this. In order to get you on board the energy companies are using the carrot and stick approach. If you have an ordinary meter you may be charged a much higher tariff, for example. If you are an energy company this makes a lot of sense. It's a lot more cost effective to have data from a smart meter as you can much better predict energy usage. 

The stick is the endless e-mails, calls, texts, letters telling you how wonderful smart meters are and why you should get one.

I'm with Bulb and had one fitted. It took 6 months to commission because the fitting is done by a service company, not by your supplier. That said it works well. I can see just how much energy is being used and can walk around the house telling my children just how much they need to pay me as they have left the lights on in their bedroom and the TV on AGAIN.


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## Poacher (26 Feb 2020)

icowden said:


> So, the energy companies have to encourage you to have a smart meter fitted but you don't have to use the console and your supplier can set it up to work like a dumb meter. To me there seems little advantage in this. In order to get you on board the energy companies are using the *carrot and* *stick approach*. If you have an ordinary meter you may be charged a *much higher tariff*, for example. If you are an energy company this makes a lot of sense. It's a lot more cost effective to have data from a smart meter as you can much better predict energy usage.
> 
> The stick is the *endless e-mails, calls, texts, letters* telling you how wonderful smart meters are and why you should get one.


Looks to me like two sticks and no carrots.


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## icowden (26 Feb 2020)

The carrot is "save money with a smart meter"


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## I like Skol (26 Feb 2020)

icowden said:


> The carrot is "save money with a smart meter"


That's not what you said. It is a stick, i.e let us fit a smart meter or we will hike up your prices. No carrot in sight.


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## keithmac (26 Feb 2020)

vickster said:


> If you have a big credit, ask them to return the extra and to set a DD that reflects actual usage.
> And do a check to confirm that you're getting a good tariff



I'll be sorting it out in two months when contract is up and changing suppliers.

Fancy signing up to the pair that were on Dragons Den, will see how that goes!.


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## Milkfloat (26 Feb 2020)

dave r said:


> We're with OVO and I tend to treat the energy account as a savings account, they pay interest on the money in it and i can draw money out of the account, just have to leave some in to cover the next bill.



You need to be a little bit careful with that as if the company goes tits up there is no guarantee that you will get your money back.


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## Milkfloat (26 Feb 2020)

icowden said:


> The energy companies *have* to install Smart Meters in all homes or they will be fined by the government. This is a UK government initiative and despite the cynicism further up this page, the initiative is about trying to reduce energy usage. The rationale is that if you use a smart meter you can see how much power you are using and how much it is costing you, thus you will be encouraged to use energy better.



The rationale is totally flawed, as nobody goes out of their way to waste energy (unless they are in Northern Ireland ). So a smart meter does not really help reduce use. In addition, a smart meter does not tell you how much power an individual device is using, only the total draw. The benefit to a smart meter is purely in its ability to micro charge like Economy 7 on steroids. The costs to everyone so far outweigh the benefits massively.


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## MontyVeda (26 Feb 2020)

icowden said:


> ...
> 
> *The energy companies *have* to install Smart Meters in all homes or they will be fined by the government*. This is a UK government initiative and despite the cynicism further up this page, the initiative is about trying to reduce energy usage. The rationale is that if you use a smart meter you can see how much power you are using and how much it is costing you, thus you will be encouraged to use energy better.
> ...


No... they have to offer them/make them available to all consumers. They are not obliged to *force* us to have one and we're not obliged to have one.


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## dave r (26 Feb 2020)

Milkfloat said:


> You need to be a little bit careful with that as if the company goes tits up there is no guarantee that you will get your money back.



Yes I know about that. With me being on a state pension and likely to be in the smelly stuff if I get a large unexpected bill a few quid available from here can prove useful, though I don't let it build up too much.


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## Bazzer (26 Feb 2020)

icowden said:


> The carrot is "save money with a smart meter"


I don't see any carrot. My useage would not change with a smart meter. I don't leave devices on standby and as I said upthread I have LEDs throughout the house. (Correction, I have fluorescent tubes in the garage, which will be replaced by LEDs as they start to fail). And there are no old, less energy inefficient kitchen etc., appliances. But even if there were, the cost of replacement would have to be balanced against the savings to be made.
Before I binned Scottish Power last month, their push for smart meters extended beyond telephone calls, to cleverly worded emails suggesting I had already agreed to a smart meter, (which when she read them, Mrs B fell for. Fortunately she checked with me before making arrangements having been aware of my rantings after previous telephone calls from SP).
SP even emailed and text messaged mid morning Christmas Day. 
If that was their idea of encouragement, someone in that business needs to take a long hard psychology course.


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## numbnuts (26 Feb 2020)

As many has already said I can't see how a smart meter will save any money, not unless your a person that leaves electrical appliances running for the sake of it.


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## Drago (26 Feb 2020)

If you set fire to your smart meter it will hear your house, thus allowing you to switch the electric fire off and safe money.


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## Bazzer (26 Feb 2020)

Drago said:


> If you set fire to your smart meter it will* hear *your house, thus allowing you to switch the electric fire off and safe money.


Blimey. I didn't realise that were that smart!


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## icowden (27 Feb 2020)

A Smart Meter will save you money as the provider of your gas and electricity will offer you a cheaper tariff if you have one installed. 

Remember that potential fine from our lovely Government? If they can't induce you to have one by virtue of being eco-friendly, then their last resort is to put your prices up.

Simple.


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## I like Skol (27 Feb 2020)

icowden said:


> A Smart Meter will save you money as the provider of your gas and electricity will offer you a cheaper tariff if you have one installed.
> 
> Remember that potential fine from our lovely Government? If they can't induce you to have one by virtue of being eco-friendly, then their last resort is to put your prices up.
> 
> Simple.


Tosh!

I have done the power provider shuffle in the last few months and having/not having a smart meter wasn't even a thing, providers were simply compared on price and length of term. I went with the cheapest company and I still don't have smart meters, any intention to have them fitted and no pressure from my new company to fit them. 

I don't believe I could have got a better price by having the modern meters fitted* and unless you can substantiate your claim please stop peddling the rumour, disinformation and fear mongering that may trick people into making the wrong choice.
(*my own experience only)


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## Drago (27 Feb 2020)

Theyll fit a smart meter over my cold dead body. Big Brother is bad enough, but the thought of Scottish Power as Big Brother is horrifying.


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## Bazzer (27 Feb 2020)

icowden said:


> A Smart Meter will save you money as the provider of your gas and electricity will offer you a cheaper tariff if you have one installed.
> 
> Remember that potential fine from our lovely Government? If they can't induce you to have one by virtue of being eco-friendly, then their last resort is to put your prices up.
> 
> Simple.


Didn't happen when I switched last month. No questions were asked about whether I had a smart or a dumb meter, nor was the tariff I was offered on the basis of one meter or the other.
Ironically, I was emailed yesterday by my new provider, asking me to send my latest meter readings.


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## icowden (27 Feb 2020)

I like Skol said:


> I don't believe I could have got a better price by having the modern meters fitted* and unless you can substantiate your claim please stop peddling the rumour, disinformation and fear mongering that may trick people into making the wrong choice.
> (*my own experience only)



OK,

https://www.which.co.uk/news/2019/11/can-you-get-a-cheaper-energy-deal-with-a-smart-meter/



> Of the 11 big energy firms we approached, five told us that their current cheapest tariffs are exclusively for those who have smart meters or agree to get them fitted. These are British Gas, EDF Energy, Eon, Npower and Scottish Power. Other firms, including Shell Energy, sell tariffs that encourage customers to get smart meters, but aren’t their cheapest deals. SSE and Utility Warehouse’s deals encourage customers to have smart meters, but you don’t have to. Companies are under pressure from the government to install smart meters – or face fines from energy regulator Ofgem – so you could see this as the latest approach to getting customers on board.
> 
> Read more: https://www.which.co.uk/news/2019/11/can-you-get-a-cheaper-energy-deal-with-a-smart-meter/ - Which?





> The cheapest deals that don’t require smart meters usually include other conditions, for example paying by direct debit, paying a month in advance, foregoing paper bills, or managing your account online. You don’t have to have smart meters fitted. They are not compulsory. However, you may end up paying a premium, just like those who prefer to pay when they receive a bill rather than by direct debit.
> 
> Read more: https://www.which.co.uk/news/2019/11/can-you-get-a-cheaper-energy-deal-with-a-smart-meter/ - Which?



No rumour, disinformation or fearmongering. You can get good prices without a smart meter from some companies, but in the face of a fine from OFGEM, don't expect that to stay true.

The power company don't own your meter and the data is used to help make us more energy efficient (which is a good thing for the planet). Your bills can be more precisely calculated so that you don't end up banking credit with your energy supplier. I can't really see any negatives myself unless your job is meter reading.


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## MontyVeda (27 Feb 2020)

icowden said:


> A Smart Meter will save you money as the provider of your gas and electricity will offer you a cheaper tariff if you have one installed.
> 
> *Remember that potential fine from our lovely Government?* If they can't induce you to have one by virtue of being eco-friendly, then their last resort is to put your prices up.
> 
> Simple.


They only risk a fine of they refuse to offer their customers a smart meter. They have no incentive to force us to have one installed. Simple.


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## vickster (27 Feb 2020)

We’ll all have one in 3 years
(Friend is a civil servant leading the project  , have her to thank for plastic fivers too )
Just make sure you get a 2nd gen one


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## icowden (27 Feb 2020)

They have a massive incentive to force you to get one installed. By knowing the exact patterns of energy usage of their customers they can make more intelligent energy purchases thus pushing up profits, or enabling savings to customers (or a bit of both) depending on the operating model of the company,.

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publicatio...s-700000-after-missing-gas-smart-meter-target

Also, that isn't how the fine works. Energy suppliers with more than 250,000 customers must set annual targets for the proportion of their customers that will have smart meters by the end of each year. If the target is missed then enforcement action can be taken and they are fined. They are required by law to take all reasonable steps to roll out smart meters to all homes by the end of 2020.

The programme is expected to deliver 17.1 bn of economic benefits against costs of 10.9bn:-



> DECC is leading the Smart Metering Implementation Programme. It expects the programme to deliver £17.1 billion of economic benefits against costs of £10.9 billion. 1 Consumer benefits from smart meters include lower energy consumption, load shifting from peak periods, improved consumer experience and engagement, easier switching between suppliers and reduced carbon emissions. Cost savings for energy suppliers, network operators and terms of generation capacity are also expected.



They don't expect everyone to agree to have a meter initially, but you can bet if there is money to be made / losses to be avoided, that they will do all that they can to persuade you to change meter.


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## Drago (27 Feb 2020)

Harvey Weinstein had a smart meter. Nuff said.

No way on Gods green earth will we all have a smart meter in 3 years. Aside from all other considerations, it's a logistical impossibility. If 10,000 were installed every day for the next 3 years, including weekends and bank holidays, the country wouldn't be halfway to achieving universal fitment.


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## MontyVeda (27 Feb 2020)

icowden said:


> *They have a massive incentive to force you to get one installed*. By knowing the exact patterns of energy usage of their customers they can make more intelligent energy purchases thus pushing up profits, or enabling savings to customers (or a bit of both) depending on the operating model of the company,.
> 
> https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publicatio...s-700000-after-missing-gas-smart-meter-target
> 
> ...


Well Eon aren't trying very hard to force me to have one installed. They asked me if I wanted one and I said I didn't.


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## icowden (27 Feb 2020)

Drago said:


> No way on Gods green earth will we all have a smart meter in 3 years. Aside from all other considerations, it's a logistical impossibility. If 10,000 were installed every day for the next 3 years, including weekends and bank holidays, the country wouldn't be halfway to achieving universal fitment.



So by June 2019 they were at 15m out of 53m or 28%. The deadline has now been pushed back to 2024 and a new supplier obligation comes into place on 1st Jan 2021. An 85% coverage is wanted by the 2024 deadline. Part of the problem was that SMETS1 wasn't fit for purpose (tied to supplier). This was due to the stupidity of the government that made the installation supplier led and not distribution network owned. Earlier adopters such as m'self held out for SMETS2 meters which are not supplier dependent. Sadly Crapita are responsible for the Digital Communications Company that provides the interoperability, so we can only hope they work properly.

To be fair, I have had no issues with mine other than the commissioning process which was delayed over 6 months.

NB - The new licensing obligation means that ALL suppliers can be fined and that milestone reporting is more frequent.


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## MichaelW2 (27 Feb 2020)

My household electrical supply is apparently 3 phase which baffled the smart meter people. Eventually the said no.


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## icowden (27 Feb 2020)

They haven't worked out what they are going to do about households that just can't have a meter. You are one of the glorious exceptions! Was your house formerly used for industry?


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## AndreaJ (27 Feb 2020)

My boss agreed to have one fitted at work, they couldn’t do it as the mobile phone signal is poor and according to the fitter the meter uses a mobile phone signal to send the data. Can’t have one at home either for the same reason (not that we wanted one).


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## MontyVeda (27 Feb 2020)

icowden said:


> ... Earlier adopters such as m'self held out for SMETS2 meters which are not supplier dependent. Sadly Crapita are responsible for the Digital Communications Company that provides the interoperability, so we can only hope they work properly.
> 
> ...


When Eon asked why i didn't want one, I told them that i'd heard too much bad feedback about both 1st and 2nd generation meters, so am holding out for the 3rd generation and depending on the feedback that gets, I might hold out for the 4th gen meter


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## Mo1959 (27 Feb 2020)

Just wondering.........are you obliged to let them in to your property?


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## I like Skol (27 Feb 2020)

Mo1959 said:


> Just wondering.........are you obliged to let them in to your property?


I'll ask my shot-guns...…..






They say no


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## Drago (27 Feb 2020)

Mo1959 said:


> Just wondering.........are you obliged to let them in to your property?


Nope.

And if they enter and refuse to leave, common law permits you to use reasonable force to reject them.


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## classic33 (27 Feb 2020)

I like Skol said:


> I'll ask my shot-guns...…..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You talk to your shotguns, and you hear them answer you!


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## I like Skol (27 Feb 2020)

classic33 said:


> You talk to your shotguns, and you hear them answer you!


You say that like it is something weird!


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## icowden (28 Feb 2020)

Mo1959 said:


> Just wondering.........are you obliged to let them in to your property?



Why would they be trying to enter your property if you hadn't agreed to have a smart meter?

There is a strange paradox in that the Government has pretty much mandated that every household should have a smart meter by 2024 but hasn't given any provider of Smart Meters the ability to make them compulsory. What they can do (if they so choose), and which is approved by Government is price you out of having a normal meter.

There is no SMETS3 at present. SMETS2 was only introduced because they realised that SMETS1 was just stupid having tied the meters to power providers rather than the power distributor (which is what other countries did - we have a proven track record of looking at successful implementations and then ignoring them).

You can get a smart meter or not. My experience of having one is that they are less exciting than you might think, but no real hassle. Installation was fairly simple. Commissioning got messed up but was eventually sorted out pretty easily. The meter just behaved like a dumb meter while they sorted that out.


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## Phaeton (27 Mar 2020)

Had Smart Meters installed in the fathers bungalow 14 days ago as he's no longer living there & selfishly it's one less job for me to do, installation went nice & easy, but the user wifi display wasn't working, guy was a bit cagey about it & claimed it should sort itself out in under 48 hours & they were receiving the readings. That if it hasn't come on by 48 hours contact the supplier, well having contacted the supplier 4 times in the last 14 days via their website, I've not heard anything from them & it still doesn't work. Not too bothered really but in this day & age things ought to work.


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## icowden (27 Mar 2020)

I had the same issue. As long as the meters were commissioned you won't have a problem. There are some things you can do with the unit like resetting it. Also have a look on your supplier website - Bulb had a page on which you could trigger something that would try to solve the problem (not entirely sure what, but it worked in my case).

Also to be fair to the supplier they are likely running their call centre / customer service on a skeleton staff at the moment.


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