# Is it worth buying an "old" Brompton?



## thenay (24 Jul 2019)

Hi, new to the forum here!

I'm after a folding bike, as I'll need it for a new daily commute involving trains. After reading a lot of reviews, it seems that the Brompton would be a better choice for what I need, as they fold small and keep their value well. However, buying a brand new one is something I can't afford at the moment.

So I've been looking for second hand models, and came across a 2003 M3L at an affordable price (£450). It's had a single owner, who recently changed the gears, shifter and cables; as well as rear wheel, chain, brake pads and mudguards. From the sound of it, the only thing that might need updating soon would be the front wheel... the saddle seems ok, although I've only seen pictures.

But I have no idea how much it costs to maintain a Brompton, let alone an old model. Could more experienced Brompton users advise me on the (dis)advantages of owning an old model? How easy / expensive is it to replace stuff if things go wrong? How easy is it to resell? Is it worth the effort, or better to invest a bit more and get a more recently made 2nd hand bike?

Many thanks in advance!


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## shingwell (24 Jul 2019)

6 months agi I bought a 2010 M6R with dynamo lights and padded storage bag for £500 (eBay). Hardly used - the owner bought himself and wife a B each in a fit of fitness enthusiasm, used them a bit, and they then sat in a bag in his garage for 9 1/2 years. I was bit apprehensive but it arrived in a as-new condition, just needed some air in the tyres. I think zi lucked out but yours sounds rather heavily used in comparison. If you can wait I wonder if prices fall in the autumn/winter months?

I have since modernised mine with a folding clip, around £15 IIRC from Brilliamt Bikes (if you're unaware: when you pick an older B up by the saddle eg to move it, it starts folding. On later Bs you need to pull a little lever before it starts collapsing, can be retro-fitted easily.) I also replaced the lights with LED ones but kept the bottle dynamo (modern Bs have a hub dynamo), and added a front luggage block (only a few £) to the front so that I can use B's luggage system (watch out for the price of bags though, all types over £100.)

It is a joy to use, once you have swallowed hard at the initial price I don't think you will regret it.


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## thenay (24 Jul 2019)

Thanks for the advice 



shingwell said:


> If you can wait I wonder if prices fall in the autumn/winter months?



I had no idea that 2nd hand Brompton prices were seasonal! When would you say is the "best" time to look out for one?


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## alicat (24 Jul 2019)

Er, think about it. If in doubt, the clue is in the extract you quoted.


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## shingwell (24 Jul 2019)

I'm not saying they are, just speculating! It wouldn't surprise me though if second hand bike prices generally were lower in winter. I commute by bicycle all year round in all weathers but I hardly see any other cyclists in winter, but lots in summer.


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## Smudge (24 Jul 2019)

For the crazy prices that Brommies seem to go for secondhand, i would be tempted by the B75 from Halfords for £745, but wait until the next discount code comes round. These codes come round quite regular.
A few weeks ago, the CYCLING15 code brought this Brompton down to around £640.


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## oldwheels (24 Jul 2019)

You don’t need to use expensive bags. All you need is the frame to fit the block and then the bag of your choice. Mine cost £11 from Aldi some years ago and is described as a basket but any reasonable bag can be fixed to the frame.


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## berlinonaut (24 Jul 2019)

shingwell said:


> 6 months agi I bought a 2010 M6R with dynamo lights and padded storage bag for £500 (eBay).(...)
> I have since modernised mine with a folding clip, (...) I also replaced the lights with LED ones but kept the bottle dynamo



Just for the record: Judging from the features it is not a 2010 model. 2010 brought the hub dynamo (you have a bottle dynamo), the rear frame clip became standard at the beginning of 2008 (your bike was missing it). So your's is probably before that. If it still has the serial number on the sticker at the back of the seat tube: The first four digits tell year and month of the build. If it has gone missing just post (or PM) the frame number wich makes it possible to tell a rough date of production.


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## shingwell (24 Jul 2019)

@berlinonaut useful info I did not know - thanks, will have a look!


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## smutchin (24 Jul 2019)

thenay said:


> So I've been looking for second hand models, and came across a 2003 M3L at an affordable price (£450)



For a Brompton of that age, I would want to know how much mileage the owner has done on it, and whether he has ever replaced the rear hinge bearings. If not, expect to have to get them replaced soon - and note that this will be an expensive job (the special tools you need are not on general sale to the public, so it has to be done by an official Brompton service centre).

Also bear in mind that Bromptons use a lot of bespoke parts, and these have been refined and upgraded over the years. A Brompton of that vintage will likely have an older design of many parts - it would be well worth upgrading to the more recent brake levers especially, as they are a vast improvement.

I presume a 2003 Brompton will have the old design chainset as well, which is an all-in-one design and made of cheese, so it would be worth upgrading to the new chainset with replaceable chainring (the chainring on a 2003 Brompton will be well worn and very likely due to be replaced). I think the new design of chainset needs a different bottom bracket too.



> the only thing that might need updating soon would be the front wheel



Why? What's wrong with the existing front wheel?


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## smutchin (24 Jul 2019)

thenay said:


> I had no idea that 2nd hand Brompton prices were seasonal!



I would be a little surprised if they were. Second-hand Bromptons in good condition will be in high demand all year round.


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## berlinonaut (24 Jul 2019)

thenay said:


> But I have no idea how much it costs to maintain a Brompton, let alone an old model. Could more experienced Brompton users advise me on the (dis)advantages of owning an old model? How easy / expensive is it to replace stuff if things go wrong? How easy is it to resell? Is it worth the effort, or better to invest a bit more and get a more recently made 2nd hand bike?



Typically it costs very little to keep a Brompton running. There's nothing wrong with older models in general but they are lacking some of the features of the more modern bikes (like the rear frame clip) and the components may be better on modern bikes (like brakes, brake levers, saddle, dynamo hub, ...) and the general finish is better as well (hex-screws and stuff like that). It makes no sense to buy an older bike and retrofit a lot of modern stuff as you will end up more expensive than buying a newer model but some parts like the rear frame clip and better brake levers are desirable. So I would calculate with 50-150 Euros for upgrades. In general with equally priced bikes the newer one is probably the better choice (apart from the paint that has been more robust in the glossy version up to 2008). 
I'd however avoid very old bikes of the MK2 aera before 2000, at least as a daily workhorse,- compontent quality is way worse than on modern bikes. Starting with the MK3 in 2000 things are more or less ok, apart from the frame which is the older version until 2004, when the MK4 with it's longer frame was invented. The issue with the short frame is that some of the frames break around the frame hinge, spare parts are no longer available, it is not impossible but kind of a dubious repair to fix a broken old one. Not every old frame breaks but some do, so this is a risk. Everything else is backwards compatible and it is no issue at all to get hold of spare parts. This is where the Brompton shines. In general, the older the bike the slower they loose value, so often enough bikes of 10 years or older are more or less similarly priced (or not too far apart), so buying a very old one does not make too much sense as recognizably newer ones do not cost relevantly more.
The other thing to keep in mind is that in the UK many Bromptons are used as workhorses: Beaten daily, getting little love and maintenance. So used bikes often come with a deep desire for love and show marks of a hard life. Repairs are not expensive each but can sum up. The rear frame hinge is such a repair that can come surprisingly for the innocent as are rims, chain, sprockets, broken mudguards, tires and other smaller parts. If you manage to buy a beater you may end up with a lot of repairs and these may quickly eat up what you saved before. So looking at the bike before you buy may be a good idea. Everything is repairable, so in the worst case you'll "just" loose some money.
The most recommended are bikes from 2013 on - easily to spot by the spider crank and the more modern "edgy" brake levers. From 2009 on the paint became mate, also relatively easy to spot in pictures. The long and short frame versions can be identified by looking at the hinges, but this is not always easy on pictures. I'd prefer a MK4 from mid 2008 on as it has the rear frame clip, the pentaclip and the new saddle. But the bike in better state is the better buy. The newer bike in better state is the best buy.


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## smutchin (24 Jul 2019)

berlinonaut said:


> the pentaclip and the new saddle



I forgot about the Pentaclip. That’s definitely a worthwhile upgrade if not already fitted as it means you can choose your own saddle.

The current Brompton saddle is vastly better than the appalling foam monstrosity that came with mine, but that’s not saying much.


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## thenay (25 Jul 2019)

Thanks a lot everyone, this is incredibly helpful! The bike is far enough from me that it's a bit complicated to go all the way there to view if I'm unsure or buying. The owner used it daily for their commute, and relied mainly on regular checkups done by professionals to keep the bike going (that is, they don't know a lot of details on what's been done, although they said the rear hinge has been replaced recently). 
Given how I might end up spending on unknown repairs, I think I'll wait and see if I can get something made more recently... as I'll need it for a daily commute as well.
Thanks for your help.


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## oldwheels (25 Jul 2019)

I like my current Brompton saddle. I even bought another to fit on the Bike Friday as the original saddle on that is not comfortable.


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## smutchin (25 Jul 2019)

thenay said:


> they said the rear hinge has been replaced recently



Reassuring. Sounds to me like it could be worth a punt.


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## T4tomo (25 Jul 2019)

The major upgrade with the introduction of the titanium superlight frame options, a slightly longer wheelbase I think and different handlebars was 2005. 

Stuff like brake levers and pentaclips are pretty easy and cheap upgrades to retrofit.


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## Poacher (25 Jul 2019)

Some very good advice above, to which I can only add my exhortation never to buy a Brompton which lacks the serial number sticker on the back of the seat tube. This is nearly always a sign that the bike has been stolen at some point in its existence. At the risk of being accused of vanity, I'll re-post my previous contributions on this (saves me re-typing!):


Poacher said:


> AFAIK the (very) sticky label with the 10 digit serial number and bar code is fitted at point of sale, rather than at the factory, and is effectively your guarantee. It's also a sure way of tracing the origin of a Brommy, which is why so many of those for sale on fleabay are lacking this crucial sticker.
> It's worthwhile not just to keep a record of both the serial and frame numbers, but also to register these on the Brompton website, and *never* remove the serial number sticker, even for aesthetic reasons!





Poacher said:


> As well as the frame number which is stamped on the flat part of the rear hinge, each Brompton has a durable sticker applied to the back of the seat tube at point of sale.
> This bears a serial number and bar code, and constitutes the guarantee; if it's removed for any reason (usually a nefarious one!) the sticky residue which is left reads "VOID".
> Ask to see a photo of the serial number sticker, if it's not clearly shown on the Gumtree/Ebay/whatever photo(s). If there's no sticker, don't touch the deal with a barge pole, as it's almost certain to be a wrong 'un. The original dealer will have made absolutely clear that the sticker should not be removed under any circumstances - and there's no good reason to do so.


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## berlinonaut (25 Jul 2019)

T4tomo said:


> The major upgrade with the introduction of the titanium superlight frame options, a slightly longer wheelbase I think and different handlebars was 2005.



As said before: Mk4 (longer wheelbase) was in the beginning of 2004. S and P handlebars and titanium were in 2005 (in about May). 



T4tomo said:


> Stuff like brake levers and pentaclips are pretty easy and cheap upgrades to retrofit.


 It just adds up. I've done it myself and seen others doing it. I.e.:

- Basically unused late MK2, bought and upgraded to today's standard a couple of years ago. Buy price was 600€, upgrades were another 600€, w/o labour, just for the parts. Crankset was not upgraded.
- 2010 beater. Looked used but ok. Repaired what needed to be done, some smaller upgrades. Goal was a pragmatic bike for daily use, working well but as cheap as possible. Price for the bike was 500€ (way cheaper than normal in Germany for a bike of that age), repairs added up to another 500€ including changing the rear hinge which I had done at a workshop. The rest were parts. In the end the bike was working well, but it optically it was still not a beauty. Rims were not changed and are relatively near to eol.

Both tasks were done more for scientific puropses, to find out what you really end up with instead of guessing. In both cases buying a newer bike or one in better shape would have been the better choice. Even more if you cannot perform necessary repairs yourself.
So don't get fooled by a low price - it's the same as with cars: The better bike is the better buy.


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## berlinonaut (25 Jul 2019)

Poacher said:


> Some very good advice above, to which I can only add my exhortation never to buy a Brompton which lacks the serial number sticker on the back of the seat tube. This is nearly always a sign that the bike has been stolen at some point in its existence. At the risk of being accused of vanity, I'll re-post my previous contributions on this (saves me re-typing!):



Would not buy into that. The serial number was only invented at the end of 2001 - older bikes did never have one. It has absolutely nothing to do with warranty (and on an older bike warranty is long gone anyway). The sticker was sometimes removed by the owner for optical purposes, more often the sticker is still there but you cannot read the number any more. Lack of the serial number is in my experience by no means an indicator for a stolen bike. In late summer 2015 Brompton started to replace the sticker with the serial with a metal badge in the same location. Since then the vanishing is less of an issue. In the German Brompton forum we maintain a crowdsourced collection of frame numbers and build dates (derivated from the serial numbers of the bikes) to make it possible to thumb-guess the build date of bikes w/o serials, additions to the list are always very welcome (hint, hint): http://www.bromptonauten.de/phorum3/read.php?1,19789 As far as I am aware this is the only collection of this kind outside the Brompton factory - the collection in the Brompton book ends with the invention of the serials end of 2001.


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## 12boy (25 Jul 2019)

I have a 2010 which came with the swaged one piece crank arm and chain ring. I went with a sugino 130 BCD crankset and the later to a sugino 110 BCD largely to try different chain rings. I still use the original crankset though, just on another bike. It is about 200 grams lighter, and since the taper is ISO, not JIS, sits a little further in for a better chainline. Obviously, when the chain ring teeth are worn, it will have to go, but for now, it works well and hasn't been cheesy at all. I was less impressed with the BB which I lacked the tools to tighten with its plastic parts. Aside from rear sprockets, tires and rims wearing out more quickly and the need to periodically replace the seat post insert and the rear frame hinge spindle, mine seems no more costly or difficult to maintain tha the rest of my bikes. Having said that, if there is way to ride any bike before buying it I think it wise to do so. I have had bikes that looked good on paper but never felt comfortable to ride.


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## Poacher (25 Jul 2019)

berlinonaut said:


> Would not buy into that. The serial number was only invented at the end of 2001 - older bikes did never have one. It has absolutely nothing to do with warranty (and on an older bike warranty is long gone anyway). The sticker was sometimes removed by the owner for optical purposes, more often the sticker is still there but you cannot read the number any more. Lack of the serial number is in my experience by no means an indicator for a stolen bike. In late summer 2015 Brompton started to replace the sticker with the serial with a metal badge in the same location. Since then the vanishing is less of an issue. In the German Brompton forum we maintain a crowdsourced collection of frame numbers and build dates (derivated from the serial numbers of the bikes) to make it possible to thumb-guess the build date of bikes w/o serials, additions to the list are always very welcome (hint, hint): http://www.bromptonauten.de/phorum3/read.php?1,19789 As far as I am aware this is the only collection of this kind outside the Brompton factory - the collection in the Brompton book ends with the invention of the serials end of 2001.


Fair enough; my quoted posts were from 2013/2015, I think, when they were possibly more relevant. When I bought my Brompton, in 2009, I was told not to remove the sticker, as it was proof of warranty. Mrs Poacher bought a Brompton off ebay in 2012, allegedly a 2010 bike. When it arrived I was immediately suspicious that the serial sticker had been removed (leaving the diagonal "VOID" residue); the frame number was lower than my 2009 one and there were various other niggling features. I shelled out for a professional condition report which confirmed my suspicions that the bike was not as described. We returned it in an official Brompton packing box, with a copy of the report, and got a refund of the purchase price, but not for return carriage or the cost of the report. 

Possibly going above and beyond, we reported the events to Brompton, who traced the frame number to the original dealer, who in turn contacted their purchaser, who confirmed it had been stolen. He managed to persuade the police to raid the ebay vendor, which resulted in the return of his bike and the recovery of several more stolen Bromptons and other property. The vendor was banned from ebay, and actually served some time at her maj's pleasure.
I hope you'll understand that I'm very cautious about second-hand Bromptons as a result of this bitter experience. We bit the bullet, price-wise, and bought a new Brompton for her - she's very pleased with it (although she rarely rides it!) and we have peace of mind.


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## berlinonaut (25 Jul 2019)

Poacher said:


> bitter experience.



That's a sad story! Still there is the difference between coincidence and correlation. In fact the thieves were stupid to sell a bike that did not match the desription - that's what made you suspicious in the first hand. Each, frame-number and serial number enable on it's own identification of the bike and it is tougher (and definitively suspicious) to remove the frame number. And removing the serial does not help to hide that a bike was stolen as your case shows. So the lack of the serial may not be trust building but still to me it would not make a bike suspicious - I know way too many cases where it is missing or unreadable on totally legitimate bikes.


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## simongt (26 Jul 2019)

oldwheels said:


> You don’t need to use expensive bags.


Agree completely. The GLW and both have Bromptons with the basic open bag on the front block plus a rain cover when needed. It never fails to amaze us just how much can be stowed in said bag and no effect on the handling; until you lob six  2ltr. bottles of water in there after a trip to Aldi - !


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## jay clock (26 Jul 2019)

simongt said:


> Agree completely. The GLW and both have Bromptons with the basic open bag on the front block plus a rain cover when needed. It never fails to amaze us just how much can be stowed in said bag and no effect on the handling; until you lob six  2ltr. bottles of water in there after a trip to Aldi - !


I find there is a massive effect on the handling. For the better....


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## jay clock (26 Jul 2019)

To get back to the OP question it is a personal thing but I would not touch with a bargepole. Quite likely to need new cables, tyres, chain, etc etc and it is 16 years old. And for that you are paying half price. You could easily need to spend £100-150 on tidying it up. I would find a way to get a new one (appreciate cashflow may be an issue for some)


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## recumbentpanda (27 Jul 2019)

I used a Brompton for daily commuting for nearly ten years. Bought new, the only major failure was a blown out wheel rim -the braking surface on small wheels wears faster, although not unduly so. After another ten years of light occasional use the bridge in the rear frame was found to be rusted through, and the hinge bearings showing slight signs of play. Gave it to a local charity who repaired it and sold it on. In that condition it would have cost me too much to repair, even doing the work myself, but the charity has volunteer mechanics so the numbers work better. 

Son bought a modern Brompton second hand recently and I was very impressed by the many small improvements in design and quality. 

When buying second hand,

-try to get the most recent model you can afford. 

Check for:

- Condition of rims

- Play in rear frame hinge (small amount is still rideable usually)

- Rust in rear frame (mostly in the bridges)

- Condition of main frame hinge

- Hub gear working (when correctly adjusted)

Plus all the other stuff you’d look for on a normal bike . . .


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## smutchin (28 Jul 2019)

12boy said:


> Obviously, when the chain ring teeth are worn, it will have to go, but for now, it works well and hasn't been cheesy at all.



On mine the crank sheared away from the chainring when pulling away from the lights, and I’ve heard plenty of stories of similar happening to others.


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## simongt (2 Aug 2019)

jay clock said:


> I find there is a massive effect on the handling. For the better....


'Cos of course, as any Brompton owner will tell you, the bag is attached to the main frame and not to the handlebar or front forks. Hence the excellent handling when loaded.


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## chriscross1966 (3 Aug 2019)

simongt said:


> Agree completely. The GLW and both have Bromptons with the basic open bag on the front block plus a rain cover when needed. It never fails to amaze us just how much can be stowed in said bag and no effect on the handling; until you lob six  2ltr. bottles of water in there after a trip to Aldi - !


That indicates you need to pump up the front tyre


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## simongt (3 Aug 2019)

chriscross1966 said:


> That indicates you need to pump up the front tyre


Wot, over 100 psi - ? !  

Six 2ltr. bottles = 12 kilos. plus a hefty chain lock, do the fizzics - !


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## chriscross1966 (3 Aug 2019)

simongt said:


> Wot, over 100 psi - ? !
> 
> Six 2ltr. bottles = 12 kilos. plus a hefty chain lock, do the fizzics - !


I've had more than that in there and no problem at 105psi in Marathon Plus.


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## AboydeKid (12 Aug 2019)

<sneaks onto thread>

I own a 2010 Brompton M3L (was told it was 4/5 years old on buying it) but it came with a cert saying Not Stolen...

It’s going very well and I’m loving having it.

This rim blowout thing - what do I look out for here? 
Thanks from a newbie


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## rogerzilla (12 Aug 2019)

I bought an old L3 a few years back. Needed a new rear hinge but it had held up pretty well considering its age. £250 though!


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## thenay (13 Aug 2019)

AboydeKid said:


> <sneaks onto thread>
> 
> I own a 2010 Brompton M3L (was told it was 4/5 years old on buying it) but it came with a cert saying Not Stolen...
> 
> ...



Hey AboydeKid, nice to meet you! In the end I didn't buy the 2003 Brompton I mentioned at the start of the thread, but have my eyes in a low mileage 2011 model - arranged to view it in the next days . How are you finding your 2010 one? I read in other threads / places some people saying the brakes aren't great pre-2013, what are your impressions? Any upgrades you felt that were necessary?

(In the long run I'll end up having to replace / upgrade parts, but I can't really afford the full price of a new one.)

The rim blowout thing worried me as well (been reading https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/brompton-rim-wear-indicator-pictures.252025/), as I'm not sure I'm knowledgeable enough to spot rim wear... currently doing some more research into that.


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## Blue Hills (13 Aug 2019)

Brakes aren't great on my late 90s 5 speed but they are good enough.

Been down the side of mountains on it - I wouldn't fret.


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## shingwell (13 Aug 2019)

The brakes on my good condition eBay 2006 Brompton are excellent. I've never had an expensive bike, or disk brakes, to compare with but they are as good as any bike I've ever owned.


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## berlinonaut (13 Aug 2019)

The brakes are perfectly fine on Bromptons from 2000 on (MK3). If you want more break power it is however worth changing the levers to the post 2013 - makes a hell of a difference in my opinion. If one considers this still not to sufficent changing the brake pads to CoolStop salmon (Dura Type) adds another little bit of brake power.


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## thenay (13 Aug 2019)

Awesome info, thanks a lot everyone!


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## recumbentpanda (13 Aug 2019)

Re ‘rim blowouts’ -this can happen on any rim braked wheel that is excessively worn. It happens when the rim is worn down so far that the thickness of the metal is not strong enough to cope with sudden shocks to the tyre and a section of the rim will split. 

How long this will take will depend on the kind of conditions you ride in (muck, grit etc,) how old the rims are, how thick they were to begin with, and how often you change your brake pads (older pads can tend to get abrasive debris embedded in the surface).

If the rim feels noticeably hollow when you rub your finger up and down across the braking surface (eg, in a movement that follows the line of the spokes) then it’s time to start thinking about new rims. It’s not an exact science though, as you can guess from all the factors mentioned above! 

Unless you really wear them paper thin, rim failure is likely to happen as a result of a pothole edge or a curb strike rather than just the ordinary pressure of the tyre.


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## rogerzilla (16 Aug 2019)

Small-wheelers wear rims proportionately faster than bikes with 700c wheels. Moultons chew through rims pretty quickly, too. Brake heating on descents is also more of an issue due to the lower mass of alloy to absorb the heat.


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## AboydeKid (16 Aug 2019)

Hello everyone 

<waves at TheNay>

The brakes on my 2010 are excellent- no problems there 
I had it serviced not long after I bought it. A cable was switched out, but everything else was fine

I’ve bought a brooks saddle (on the way) and titanium hinge clamps/twiddly things which I have yet to install.

Just really enjoying having a bicycle again after many years without, and especially having one I can take pretty much anywhere - it’s great! And v fast!


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## rogerzilla (17 Aug 2019)

The brakes on the 2000-ish L3 I had were absolutely fine with new cables. They used a single pivot caliper at the rear back then. There's nothing very special about them anyway - any cheap DP brake (Acor, etc) with sufficient reach and the ability to be reassembled for bottom cable entry (many allow this; they tend to be the ones with nuts rather than allen key bolts) is just as good, if not better than, the factory brakes.

Bear in mind that older bikes like the L3, with fishscale brazing around the main tube hinge, have a shorter wheelbase. This has two minor implications: tall riders may find them a little cramped and they MUST have the correct length rear brake cable and gear outers for SWB frames. Current cablesets are for LWB (approx 2008-on) frames, although the old ones are still available and it's possible to find out the exact lengths you need on the Internet if you want to cut your own.

If I buy a well-used old Brompton (and I've had a couple) I change the aluminium hinge clamps and the bars for safety's sake.


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## berlinonaut (17 Aug 2019)

rogerzilla said:


> The brakes on the 2000-ish L3 I had were absolutely fine with new cables.



For the record the brake history on the Brompton from memory:

Starting with the MK2 at the end of the eighties Brompton were using brakes by CLB. Those can be identified by a black piece of plastic on the front side of the brake axle (and look pretty similar to those used on Moulton AMs of the 80ies). Somewhere in the early nineties they switched to Sachs single pivots for a couple of years and after that to Saccon City calipers. All those brakes leave something (or a lot) to be desired in terms of brake performance. However: Better brake pads, better levers and better cables can improve a lot.

With the MK3 at the beginning of 2000 Brompton invented the dual pivot brake made by Alhonga in the front, at that time in silver. On the rear there was a new single pivot brake, probably from Alhonga as well. These brakes are fine, braking power is absolutely sufficient. This dual pivot was factory standard until the new brakes were invented at the beginning of 2018. Only the color changed over time from silver in the beginning over chapmpagne in about 2008 to dark grey in about 2013 (and black on the black adition models from 2015 on). The rear brake changed from single to dual pivot in 2007, second half I assume. No doubts about break performance with this one as well. Still the single pivot on the rear from 2000 on can be considered to be sufficient as most break power goes via the front brake anyway and the bake is better than it's anchestors.

2018 brought the actual brakes, in all black on all models. They are again dual pivots but of a different design. Front and rear brake are now identical and exchangable, they do only fit on older bikes after drilling the mounting hole on the front fork (and the front blade) a little big bigger as they use a different type of nut. I could not recognize any difference in brake performance between the actual brakes and the former dual pivots.

Brake handles/levers:

The first couple of 100 (or maybe 1000) bikes had an edgy metal brake lever, rarely seen on used bikes, as it was used only on very early ones. After a short while they got exchanged for the slim sticky looking ones that are common on Bromptons. They are lacking the possiblity for adjustment of lever or cable. 

With the MK3 there came a newer generation that offered cable adjustment, those are called "open clovis" due to the way the cable is mounted inside the lever and had a, I think, 30° angle.

2008 brought a redesign called "closed clovis", again due to the way the cable is mounted inside. It offered not only cable adjustment but also lever adjustment (not sure, maybe the generation before offered it as well) and offered a, I assume, 15° angle. Brompton says the open clovis design levers should be exchanged as they do no longer cables for it and with the wrong cable it may slip out of the lever/clovis (and the rider out of brake power). 

2013 brought the modern, edgy brake levers that look a bit like Avid ones (but are a Brompton only design) and have a silver corpus along with black levers (exactly opposite than all generations before). They definitively increase brake power and handling massively to the better and are from my point of view highly recommended for any generation of brakes. 

2017 brought a revision of these, they now offer mounting holes for the new gear shifters that were invented in 2017. Again, from 2015 on the levers are completely black with black edition models.

Other than that: Since about 2008 Brompton used Fibrax brake pads that enhanced the braking power and the rubber was exchangable in the carrier for any Dura Ace type brake pad. Jagwire compression free cables were invented with the S model, possibly as early as with it's invention in 2005, maybe a little later. Over time the other models got those, too. 

So with any Brompton I personally would switch to the newer style levers and to better cables and brake pads as this will increase the brake power massively. With any MK2 I would seriously think about upgrading the calipers - it is expensive but again a massive boost in brake power. A fair amount of MK2s have been retrofitted already in the early 2000s as Brompton offered a retrofit kit - possibly knowing how bad their brakes were before the dual pivots.


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## Blue Hills (17 Aug 2019)

To be honest, never felt at all in danger with my pre 2000 brakes. The main irritation is the balancing of the pads. Probably not worth me changing them.
It's also short wheelbase I gather.
Can someone tell me what the advantage is of the longer wheelbase?
Am intrigued, since they kept the old one for so long.


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## berlinonaut (17 Aug 2019)

Blue Hills said:


> Can someone tell me what the advantage is of the longer wheelbase?



- the frame does not break around the hinge 
- if you are a taller person you might feel less cramped on the 3cm longer wheelbase
- other than that quality has gone up massively in many aspects and compontents since the MK2 (but this has nothing to do with the short vs. long frame).



Blue Hills said:


> Am intrigued, since they kept the old one for so long.



The change happened, as far as I know, due to a change in production - they invented a machine that could braze in the hinges semiautomatically. For that they created new hinges and this resulted in a longer wheelbase. So it was not a problem with the old version but just due to a more effective and qualitatively stringent production that the frame was changed. On the stem the new hinge along with automation was already intvented in 2000 with the MK3, on the main frame with the MK4 in 2004.

No need to change if you are happy with your bike.


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## Blue Hills (17 Aug 2019)

Thanks, will keep it. It's a great bike. No signs of it ever breaking any more than an old brit phonebox or postbox. It's the 5 speed one with the rack. Done lots of shopping rides, been up a few mountains, looking forward to using it with my OAP bus pass.


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## rogerzilla (18 Aug 2019)

The one thing I'd consider changing on that bike would be the 5 speed hub. They're very draggy in low gear. A 3 speed gives similar range and is very efficient. Still, if it's well run-in, your 5 speed will be smoother than when it was new and they do last indefinitely. Is it one that needs a drop of oil occasionally or one of the latee "greased for life*" ones?

*12 months according to the instructions, then must be stripped and serviced! The oiled ones nevee need to be opened up as they have total loss lubrication.


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## Blue Hills (18 Aug 2019)

Change the hub, is that all 
Have never done anything to it though did have it serviced once by the much missed bicycle workshop of Notting Hill.


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## rogerzilla (18 Aug 2019)

You can usually just swap the internals over and, of course, fit a 3-speed shifter. Most (but not all) SA hub shells are interchangeable.


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## Blue Hills (18 Aug 2019)

I appreciate your knowledge but since it works I think I'll stick with it rather than, er, "upgrade" it to a 3 speed.
The 5 speed if course needs no derailleur, unlike the modern 6 speed. It's all in the hub.


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