# Hand Built Wheels



## EasyPeez (29 Nov 2016)

Hi,

I'm currently saving up for some new wheels, hoping to purchase in the new year, so just wondered what other CCers' experiences had been with their hand built wheels.

What components did you go for and why, who built them, how much did you spend and would you consider it money well spent?

Also, if anyone fancies giving some feedback on what I'm mulling over I'd be all ears. As most of the action they'll see will be fairly quick group and club riding with a fair few hills en route I'm after something nimble. There again, I'll also likely be using them to do the odd light tour with a large saddle bag so reliability and durability are also key requirements. Other than a few kgs of saddle bag over the rear wheel two or three times a year, all they'll be carrying is my steel, disc-braked Equilibrium road bike and all 10 stone of me. 

I'm currently thinking:

Hope Pro 4 hubs
Sapim Laser spokes (24f x 24r) with brass nipples
H + Son Archetype or Pacenti SL25 rims - currently leaning towards the latter as they are disc-specific and would allow tubless if I decide to go that route in future (though no plans to at present).

Cheers,
Andy


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## Sea of vapours (29 Nov 2016)

I definitely consider my hand-built wheels to be money well spent.

My requirements were:
- durability and reliability, since I do longish rides in areas where equipment failure would be potentially very unfortunate, so minimising that risk is appealing;
- tubeless, for the same reasons as above;
- disk-specific;
- lighter than the original wheels, or at least no heavier.

They've done about 15,000km since new and have remained completely true, at least as far as I can see. No punctures that I'm aware of either.

I opted for White Industries CLD hubs, having considered Hope but not liking the noise the freewheel makes. Stans Notubes Grail rims. Sapim CX-Ray spokes, entirely for their supposed longevity, rather than the aero qualities. Built by DCR Wheels.


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## mattobrien (29 Nov 2016)

I've got a set of hand built wheels with a very similar spec to what you are considering. They are Hope pro hubs (6 bolt) with Sapim spokes and H Plus Son Archetypes.

They were built for me by my LBS and have been faultless over the course of around 6,000 miles. They are on my wet weather / commuter bike, so maintenance is sporadic and the wheels have required none.

I did see a pair of H Plus Son Archetype in LBS at the weekend with black decals (mine are white) which I though looked rather nice too. 

I am sure there are lighter options available than what I chose, but I wanted something to be strong and last. So far they have more than done that.

As for hand built wheels, I am sure some more learned members will be along soon, but I have the above mentioned pair and my LBS also built me some Enve 3.4's on Chris King hubs. Mrs O has some Avee SR5 hubs on velocity rims with Sapim CX Ray spokes and as soon as the blooming hubs arrive my LBS will be building me a pair of Enve 5.6's - I have opted for Chris King centre lock hubs which are taking a little longer to turn up...


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## Sbudge (29 Nov 2016)

I've had 3 sets built so far, all by David at DCR. Certainly money well very spent. Personally I'd talk to your chosen builder without any preconceived ideas on components. If they're any good then they'll probably be able to suggest some combinations you'd never have otherwise considered.

My next challenge will be to get a set made for my Slate, 650b with a Lefty hub will make that a fun challenge.


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## betty swollocks (29 Nov 2016)

My hand-built bike has hand-built wheels, made by Mog at Sven cycles, where the bike was made.
Chris King hubs with H+Son Hydra (tubeless and I'm running them tubeless) rims. Just a couple of months old, so early days yet and they've been faultless, as you'd/I'd expect them to be.
Here's a pic (taken this morning) of them on the bike:-


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## EasyPeez (29 Nov 2016)

Sea of vapours said:


> Sapim CX-Ray spokes





mattobrien said:


> Sapim CX Ray spokes



How have you both found the CX-Rays? I was originally eyeing those myself but as I won't see much benefit from the aero profile and the Lasers are similar in strength (according to Sapim website) I was advised it would be sensible to save a bit of money there and also avoid the possibility of them turning in high winds - is this something you've experienced with the flat spokes? I'm wouldn't be keen on spokes that would need regular checking and tightening. 



mattobrien said:


> my LBS also built me some Enve 3.4's on Chris King hubs


Not right for my needs, and way out of my budget, but still - switswoo!



mattobrien said:


> I've got a set of hand built wheels with a very similar spec to what you are considering. They are Hope pro hubs (6 bolt) with Sapim spokes and H Plus Son Archetypes.
> 
> They were built for me by my LBS



Good to hear you're happy with those. I daresay they feel rather hefty in comparison with your carbon hoops - would you class them as out-an-out workhorse wheels or do you think they would be suited to quick, hilly rides too? Do you mind me asking how much you paid for them? Any idea of their total weight? (Sorry for the barrage of questions!)
I have been told the Archetype rims are ideal for my needs and have read on here they are a popular choice with discerning audaxers...I might end up going for them, but am drawn to the Pacentis, partly because of flexibility around clincher/tubeless, partly because they are disc-specific and partly because they're a bit lighter. 



Sbudge said:


> Personally I'd talk to your chosen builder without any preconceived ideas on components


Good advice. I have taken advice from experienced wheel-builders on here such as @Spoked Wheels and @Yellow Saddle with an open mind about the components, spoke count etc, though I was pretty set on Hope Hubs from the off, for a number of reasons (my budget, product reputation, giving business to a local firm, aesthetics - they come in orange!)

Speaking of aesthetics, I forgot to add into the original post, if anyone fancies posting pics of their hand-builts that would be great too :-)


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## EasyPeez (29 Nov 2016)

betty swollocks said:


> My hand-built bike has hand-built wheels, made by Mog at Sven cycles, where the bike was made.
> Chris King hubs with H+Son Hydra (tubeless and I'm running them tubeless) rims. Just a couple of months old, so early days yet and they've been faultless, as you'd/I'd expect them to be.
> Here's a pic (taken this morning) of them on the bike:-
> 
> View attachment 152920



Argh - my eyes!!!

Subjective paint-job opinions aside though, that is a lovely looking bike with a fine looking set of hoops. You must be well-chuffed


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## I like Skol (29 Nov 2016)

A common theme is emerging here. Everyone loves hand built wheels. You don't really get the sob stories about hand built wheels that seems to frequently crop up in relation to off the peg wheels, snapping spokes, needing regular trueing, failed freehubs, etc. The freehub issue is obviously down to component choice but the other problems are down to the skill and attention lavished by the wheel builder.
I won't make any recommendations about component choice because I am a bit blinkered in this respect (higher end Shimano hubs, DT stainless spokes and eyeletted Mavic rims) but I will say not to get too focussed on wheel set weight! It is more important to choose components that are going to last the distance, especially on a disc braked bike, because these should be the only/last set of wheels you need to buy for this bike. IME a good hand built set of wheels will feel far superior to many off the peg wheels regardless of weight although I can only base this on experience of wheels I have built myself.
Hope this helps.


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## betty swollocks (29 Nov 2016)

EasyPeez said:


> Argh - my eyes!!!
> 
> Subjective paint-job opinions aside though, that is a lovely looking bike with a fine looking set of hoops. You must be well-chuffed



I am: thank you.


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## Yellow Saddle (29 Nov 2016)

EasyPeez said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm currently saving up for some new wheels, hoping to purchase in the new year, so just wondered what other CCers' experiences had been with their hand built wheels.
> 
> ...




You cannot use 24 spokes and durability and/or reliability in the same sentence. 
What do you mean by nimble? Wheels are only as nimble as the rider, but even then, I cannot imagine what it is you want from the wheels.

Hope PRO is noisy and the bearings don't last long and are expensive to replace.


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## e-rider (29 Nov 2016)

I had Hope pro 3 hubs but much prefer my current Dura Ace 9000 hubs and they are only slightly more expensive. The pro 3 bearings wear out quickly and are expensive to replace.
I like DT Swiss DB competition spokes with DT brass nipples
I build mine with 36 spokes front and rear. I wouldn't go below 32 rear and 28 front
Mavic CXP PRO rims


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## Sea of vapours (29 Nov 2016)

EasyPeez said:


> How have you both found the CX-Rays?


Fine. That is, they've not done anything I wouldn't want a spoke to do, such as break, twist, need tweaking, lose the black finish or corrode, and that's in 15,000km through two winters. I only chose them since they were described by various people as 'most durable' and my primary requirement is durability/reliability. I've not noticed any issues with side winds beyond wheels with non-bladed spokes (and I do ride when it's fairly windy).


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## Fab Foodie (29 Nov 2016)

betty swollocks said:


> My hand-built bike has hand-built wheels, made by Mog at Sven cycles, where the bike was made.
> Chris King hubs with H+Son Hydra (tubeless and I'm running them tubeless) rims. Just a couple of months old, so early days yet and they've been faultless, as you'd/I'd expect them to be.
> Here's a pic (taken this morning) of them on the bike:-
> 
> View attachment 152920


Man I love that.... colour scheme and all except .... I'd have had all silver finishing kit :-)


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## Fab Foodie (29 Nov 2016)

Sbudge said:


> I've had 3 sets built so far, all by David at DCR. Certainly money well very spent. Personally I'd talk to your chosen builder without any preconceived ideas on components. If they're any good then they'll probably be able to suggest some combinations you'd never have otherwise considered.
> 
> My next challenge will be to get a set made for my Slate, 650b with a Lefty hub will make that a fun challenge.



I've had 2 pairs built by David, (DCR) great service.
I was after silvery blingyness, 23mm rims so went with Archetypes with a Son Dynohub and a Velo-Orange Touring hub for the rear on an Audax build. Built for durability and comfort with 28mm tyres.
Second pair are Archeytypes on Zenith large flange fixed/Fixed hubs. Again, running 28c and looking for long term durability. I'm 90+kg and Oxfordshires roads are shocking. Also do a lot of night riding so withstanding the odd unseen pothole is a benefit.

If I was looking for your spec I'd go something like a light Pacenti Rims with plenty light spokes and hubs of your choice.


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## vickster (29 Nov 2016)

Open pro rims, Novatec hubs, DT Swiss spokes
Built by @Spoked Wheels 

Probably cost around £210 all in 32/36 spokes. Rim brakes though, not discs


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## smutchin (29 Nov 2016)

I've read that you shouldn't use Laser spokes with disc brake wheels - apparently Sapim do a disc-specific alternative to the Laser called D-light.

Personally, I use Sapim Race spokes and favour 32 per wheel.


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## mattobrien (29 Nov 2016)

EasyPeez said:


> Good to hear you're happy with those. I daresay they feel rather hefty in comparison with your carbon hoops - would you class them as out-an-out workhorse wheels or do you think they would be suited to quick, hilly rides too? Do you mind me asking how much you paid for them? Any idea of their total weight? (Sorry for the barrage of questions!)



The Enve's are reported to come in at 1,434 grams, but I haven't weighed the H+ Sons wheels - they have got rotors attached, so these would need removing and I really couldn't be bothered / wasn't that interested as there was nothing I could do about it. Having had a quick add up of the component weight, I think they'd come in at around 1,700 grams.

For a while I only had two road bikes (I know, how on earth did I cope), so used my Kinesis (which these wheels are on) as my full time winter bike. As the weather improved I managed to average 20.6mph on that bike before moving across to the summer / plastic bike. So I would say that they are more than capable of doing quick rides, as long as you are prepared to push hard enough :-)

I have used them for many commutes to work, a hilly hundred and the Dunwich dynamo and they are still round and true. The rims aren't particularly heavy (470 grams / rim I believe) so it would be very possible to build them up with lighter hubs and fewer spokes and probably get the wheel weight down a bit if you wanted. I opted for 28 spokes / wheel so that they would be a little more robust.

I think that were around £400, but they were part of a custom bike build so were bought and paid for at the same time, so I never really worried too much about their exact cost - they gave me a rough idea of budget for wheels as part of the build and that was good enough for me.


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## Yellow Saddle (29 Nov 2016)

smutchin said:


> I've read that you shouldn't use Laser spokes with disc brake wheels - apparently Sapim do a disc-specific alternative to the Laser called D-light.
> 
> Personally, I use Sapim Race spokes and favour 32 per wheel.



There's no reason why Lasers and the DT equivalent - Revolutions, should not be used with disc brakes. All spoke companies attempt to differentiate their various offerings with bogus claims and benefits and this myth is the result of such misinformation.


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## EasyPeez (29 Nov 2016)

Fab Foodie said:


> I've had 2 pairs built by David, (DCR) great service.
> I was after silvery blingyness, 23mm rims so went with Archetypes with a Son Dynohub and a Velo-Orange Touring hub for the rear on an Audax build. Built for durability and comfort with 28mm tyres.
> Second pair are Archeytypes on Zenith large flange fixed/Fixed hubs. Again, running 28c and looking for long term durability. I'm 90+kg and Oxfordshires roads are shocking. Also do a lot of night riding so withstanding the odd unseen pothole is a benefit.
> 
> ...



They look fantastic!


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## EasyPeez (29 Nov 2016)

mattobrien said:


> The Enve's are reported to come in at 1,434 grams, but I haven't weighed the H+ Sons wheels - they have got rotors attached, so these would need removing and I really couldn't be bothered / wasn't that interested as there was nothing I could do about it. Having had a quick add up of the component weight, I think they'd come in at around 1,700 grams.
> 
> For a while I only had two road bikes (I know, how on earth did I cope), so used my Kinesis (which these wheels are on) as my full time winter bike. As the weather improved I managed to average 20.6mph on that bike before moving across to the summer / plastic bike. So I would say that they are more than capable of doing quick rides, as long as you are prepared to push hard enough :-)
> 
> ...



That's great, thanks for the info


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## Fab Foodie (29 Nov 2016)

EasyPeez said:


> They look fantastic!


Thank you!


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## EasyPeez (29 Nov 2016)

Yellow Saddle said:


> You cannot use 24 spokes and durability and/or reliability in the same sentence.
> What do you mean by nimble? Wheels are only as nimble as the rider, but even then, I cannot imagine what it is you want from the wheels.
> 
> Hope PRO is noisy and the bearings don't last long and are expensive to replace.



Re: the spokes, that was a typo - sorry, I meant 28 front and rear. So 8 more spokes on each wheel than the stock wheels I currently ride.

By nimble, I mean not dead heavy. What I want from the wheels is to last a long time and ideally make my bike lighter rather than heavier, for when I am lifting it into cars/trains and chugging up steep inclines.

When you say the Hope Pro bearings don't last long, how many miles would you estimate? @mattobrien 's are reportedly going strong after 6,000 miles - I wouldn't be unhappy to have to replace bearings that often as with these wheels going on my best bike they'd be unlikely to do more than that in 2 years riding. I am after cartridge bearings for ease of maintenance - are there other cartridge hubs you'd recommend over Hope? I thought you were a fan of their hubs, no?


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## smutchin (29 Nov 2016)

Yellow Saddle said:


> There's no reason why Lasers and the DT equivalent - Revolutions, should not be used with disc brakes. All spoke companies attempt to differentiate their various offerings with bogus claims and benefits and this myth is the result of such misinformation.



Yeah, I'm sure you're right. 

They're the same price though, so I don't know what's in it for Sapim to recommend one over the other.


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## EasyPeez (29 Nov 2016)

Fab Foodie said:


> Thank you!
> 
> View attachment 152937
> 
> ...


 What a gorgeous pair!


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## e-rider (29 Nov 2016)

vickster said:


> Open pro rims, Novatec hubs, DT Swiss spokes
> Built by @Spoked Wheels
> 
> Probably cost around £210 all in 32/36 spokes. Rim brakes though, not discs


Open pro rims are very 'yesterday' - much better rims exist these days!


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## vickster (29 Nov 2016)

e-rider said:


> Open pro rims are very 'yesterday' - much better rims exist these days!


So? I like the look of them on my bike and they were the right price


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## smutchin (29 Nov 2016)

If anyone's interested, I've gone through my internet history to remind myself where I read about Laser vs D-Light - @Yellow Saddle you'll enjoy this...

http://dcrwheels.co.uk/custom-wheelsets/choosing-spokes-advice/

Apparently, the Laser spoke "has been made out of a different type of stainless steel." 

This is the pertinent bit about Laser vs D-Light:
"The Laser spoke has been rated as not suitable for use with disc brakes. However, the Race spoke is relatively heavy for a double butted spoke. The D-Light compromises between the weight saving of the Laser spoke and the strength advantages of the Race spoke. The D-Light is butted in a 2.0-1.65-2.0mm profile, making it compatible with the same hubs and nipples as the Race and Laser spokes."

So essentially the difference is that the D-Light is slightly thicker in the middle than the Laser (1.5mm).

As for weight, I've just weighed the "relatively heavy" Race spokes on my kitchen scales: 4x 292mm spokes inc. nipples = 29g. So if you go for 32 spokes per wheel rather than 24, that's a massive total of 116g extra weight. And the difference will be smaller if you use lighter spokes such as Laser.

You pays your money, you makes your choice.


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## fatjel (29 Nov 2016)

I have ultegra hub/ mavic open pro rims from merlin cycles
Liked them so much bought another pair for my other bike
Cost £250 and feel smooth and comfortable compared to my previous aksiums
Withstood a frame bending , collar bone crunching crash too


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## dan_bo (29 Nov 2016)

betty swollocks said:


> My hand-built bike has hand-built wheels, made by Mog at Sven cycles, where the bike was made.
> Chris King hubs with H+Son Hydra (tubeless and I'm running them tubeless) rims. Just a couple of months old, so early days yet and they've been faultless, as you'd/I'd expect them to be.
> Here's a pic (taken this morning) of them on the bike:-
> 
> View attachment 152920


Love it.


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## mjr (29 Nov 2016)

I had a SA XL-FDD hub built into a wheel with the rims and spokes recommended by Stefan at Richardsons in Lynn. It's subzero out there so I'm not going to go look at the label right now  So far so good, but it's only been in a month or so.


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## e-rider (29 Nov 2016)

vickster said:


> So? I like the look of them on my bike and they were the right price


there is nothing wrong with Open Pro rims, but unlike 15 years ago when they were the market leader, today there are many other options, many of which are better


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## dan_bo (29 Nov 2016)

e-rider said:


> there is nothing wrong with Open Pro rims, but unlike 15 years ago when they were the market leader, today there are many other options, many of which are better


Better how though? want a light shallow racing rim brake rim and they're right up there. just had a tub set built up for cross. They're more than fine.


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## I like Skol (29 Nov 2016)

dan_bo said:


> Better how though? want a light shallow racing rim brake rim and they're right up there. just had a tub set built up for cross. They're more than fine.


This^^^^^ What was good then is still good now. Others may have upped their game (I say may have!) and are catching up but it takes time to build loyalty and a reputation like Mavic.


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## Shadow (29 Nov 2016)

As you have already spoken to @Spoked Wheels, you probably do not need to look at this thread!

Many happy CC'ers have made use of his sterling services. And yes, if you suggested I might be biased I would not disagree.


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## winjim (29 Nov 2016)

dan_bo said:


> *Better how though?* want a light shallow racing rim brake rim and they're right up there. just had a tub set built up for cross. They're more than fine.


Exactly. It's not terribly useful to say something is "better" without explaining why you think that. Tell us your reasons and we might all learn something.


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## vickster (29 Nov 2016)

I could have had the H son but I don't like the look of them, even if they are 'better' in some unquantifiable way for a recreational/leisure cyclist. I needed something to replace Fulcrum 5s which were struggling on the tourer with my weight plus luggage, so went for a heavily spoked hand built set which weighs no more than those replaced (now on the carbon bike)


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## EasyPeez (30 Nov 2016)

Shadow said:


> As you have already spoken to @Spoked Wheels, you probably do not need to look at this thread!
> 
> Many happy CC'ers have made use of his sterling services. And yes, if you suggested I might be biased I would not disagree.



Yes, I have spoken to @Spoked Wheels and have been grateful for his advice. I wasn't aware of the thread you've linked to so will enjoy reading through that. If his services continue to be on offer in the coming months when I can finally get the funds together I'll be dropping him a line to place an order. Cheers.


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## EasyPeez (30 Nov 2016)

@Yellow Saddle - just wondered if you had any suggestions of better cartridge-bearing alternatives to the Hope hubs? I thought you had been quite glowing about them in other threads but your post earlier in this thread seemed quite negative. Any idea of average bearing life in mileage from your experience?
@Spoked Wheels - what are your thoughts on Hope hubs? I'm a bit scared of the idea of trying to service non-cartridge bearings myself as have read that there's more of an art to it/it can be quite a faff to get the hang of...

Cheers.


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## EasyPeez (30 Nov 2016)

smutchin said:


> If anyone's interested, I've gone through my internet history to remind myself where I read about Laser vs D-Light - @Yellow Saddle you'll enjoy this...
> 
> http://dcrwheels.co.uk/custom-wheelsets/choosing-spokes-advice/
> 
> ...



Thanks for the info. 

Forgive my naivety, but looking at the Sapim specs on their website, when it comes to the strength rating am I right in thinking that the lower this number is the stronger the spoke?
Strength on middle section: 1250 N/mm2
I would have presumed the opposite - but then I am quite thick! 

Thanks.


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## smutchin (30 Nov 2016)

EasyPeez said:


> am I right in thinking that the lower this number is the stronger the spoke?
> Strength on middle section: 1250 N/mm2



Bear in mind that the strength rating is given by area, and a thicker spoke will have a greater area over its cross section - eg 1.77mm2 for Laser vs 2.54mm2 for Race.

For the overall strength of the finished wheel, number of spokes is a more significant factor.


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## Yellow Saddle (30 Nov 2016)

EasyPeez said:


> @Yellow Saddle - just wondered if you had any suggestions of better cartridge-bearing alternatives to the Hope hubs? I thought you had been quite glowing about them in other threads but your post earlier in this thread seemed quite negative. Any idea of average bearing life in mileage from your experience?
> @Spoked Wheels - what are your thoughts on Hope hubs? I'm a bit scared of the idea of trying to service non-cartridge bearings myself as have read that there's more of an art to it/it can be quite a faff to get the hang of...
> 
> Cheers.


I have just done a search for everything I've written with the words Hope hubs in it and found four mentions, nothing glowing.

Am I missing something or getting senile?

Bearing life is a moving target. Lots of wet riding and power hose cleaning equals poor life. Lots of dry riding and careful cleaning equals good life. That's the general rule but there are plenty of overlays. All cartridge bearing hubs using deep groove bearings are compromises. Deep groove bearings should not be used on bicycle wheels, they should be specc'd with angular contact bearings. However, that requires a mechanic who knows how to preload them and there's the problem.

But I'll attempt to answer the question as vaguely as possible. If you service your Shimano hubs once per year and have to replace at least a cone or the balls, you'd have had to replace 6 cartridge bearings in your pair of Hope hubs, given the same mileage. There are 8 in the pair. The equivalent cost would have been 1 for Shimano, 6 for Hope.


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## Yellow Saddle (30 Nov 2016)

smutchin said:


> If anyone's interested, I've gone through my internet history to remind myself where I read about Laser vs D-Light - @Yellow Saddle you'll enjoy this...
> 
> http://dcrwheels.co.uk/custom-wheelsets/choosing-spokes-advice/
> 
> ...



I'm not sure if I'm enjoying this or not, but there's nothing on TV, so....

All Sapim spokes are made from the same steel. All of them.
I have no idea what "rated" means. Sapim certainly doesn't "rate" anything, only give some marketing BS.
A Race spoke cannot be "heavy" for a double butted spoke. What on earth is he talking about. The density of a given Stainless Steel is a given. The length and diameter of a spoke of a certain length is a given. The lengths of the butts are a given. Where then does the variation come in to make a spoke "heavy for a double butted"" It is absolute nonsense. Absolute.
Further SAPIM butts are shorter than DT Swiss butts, which makes a Sapim spoke of a given length lighter than the DT equivalent. Only Wheelsmith spokes have shorter butts than SAPIM.
The centre shank of a Revolution spoke is 1.5mm. The centre shank of a D-Light spokes is 1.65mm. The centre shank of a Race spoke is 1.8mm. Given those figures, there's nothing else to say about what they weigh. They weigh what they weigh because dimensions are dimensions. There's no where to save weight or hide weight on solid wire.
The compatibility story is all BS as well. All 2mm spokes are "compatible" with all hubs on the planet.
If you take the marketing blurbs from SAPIM and DT and mix them all up and randomly slice them, you'll find that they still refer to whatever spoke you put them next to. It is NONSENSE.

The use of the word "massive" was a joke. Right?


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## Yellow Saddle (30 Nov 2016)

smutchin said:


> Bear in mind that the strength rating is given by area, and a thicker spoke will have a greater area over its cross section - eg 1.77mm2 for Laser vs 2.54mm2 for Race.
> 
> For the overall strength of the finished wheel, number of spokes is a more significant factor.



When talking about wheels the word "strength" has no meaning. Every single bicycle wheel I know is strong enough for the job. Many are not durable enough to keep on doing it for tens of thousands of kilometers, but they certainly are strong enough. Lots has been written here about the issue. Search for something like "strength vs durability" or some such. It's all explained there.


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## smutchin (30 Nov 2016)

Yellow Saddle said:


> The use of the word "massive" was a joke. Right?



Yes. As was use of the word enjoy.


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## Yellow Saddle (30 Nov 2016)

EasyPeez said:


> Thanks for the info.
> 
> Forgive my naivety, but looking at the Sapim specs on their website, when it comes to the strength rating am I right in thinking that the lower this number is the stronger the spoke?
> Strength on middle section: 1250 N/mm2
> ...



See what I said to Smutchin' above. Strength is irrelevant and thus applying the tensile strength of stainless over a given diameter of wire is totally irrelevant. I have only once seen a spoke break in its thinnest section. Once. We purchased about 4000 spokes per month and built around 30 000 wheels over an 12-year period, all with an unlimited spoke life warrantee. Each wheel with a fault that could practically come back to our factory came back and each mode of breakage was analysed and recorded. The only spoke that broke in it's mid section was due to a stick being thrown into the bike's wheel in a hi-jack attempt. I still have the photos and the analysis of the break.
Thus a wheel with 1.8mm spokes will not last longer than a wheel with 1.5mm spokes. The latter lasts the longest under the same conditions. Of course I'm talking about shank diameter, not the 2mm at either ends.


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## Richard A Thackeray (30 Nov 2016)

I'd recommend Gary Proud, owner of _Kendell Cycles_, in Castleford
A damned fine builder, who also has been known to build m/cycle, & 'wire-wheels'. for sports cars

http://www.kendellcycles.co.uk/index.php/our-services

Gary built me CX wheels, both for 'HPs' & Tubs, MTB wheels (in early 90's) & road wheels

Not sure when this was compiled, but Ian Cammish, states he's using Gary-built wheels after 25 years
http://www.iancammish.co.uk/front-wheels


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## EasyPeez (1 Dec 2016)

Yellow Saddle said:


> I have just done a search for everything I've written with the words Hope hubs in it and found four mentions, nothing glowing.
> 
> Am I missing something or getting senile?



Far be it from me to suggest any deterioration of your faculties, but this seems fairly glowing, by your standards at least 



Yellow Saddle said:


> If you choose hubs with cartridge bearings, why not something like Hope?





Yellow Saddle said:


> I like Hope hubs. I have several reasons for preferring them over other hubs:
> 
> 1) Available in multiple colours. This was important to me because customers always wanted to match this with that. Further, the spare parts are not colour-specific and I only had to stock one of each, no matter how many colours on the market.
> 2) They are convertible from through axle to QR to 20mm TA to etc etc etc. All you do if you change your bike and find you have a different fork on there is buy a new end cap and pop that onto the axle.
> ...



I note your fourth point makes reference to the durability of the bearings in fact...


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## Yellow Saddle (1 Dec 2016)

EasyPeez said:


> Far be it from me to suggest any deterioration of your faculties, but this seems fairly glowing, by your standards at least
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Now why couldn't I find that bit? It scares me that you remember stuff I said better than myself. Anyway.

As for point 4, the problem remains. Hope simply delays it with a bearing bigger than other cartridge bearing hubs such as American Classic and other wheels aimed at the light end of the market and thus forced to use small bearings.

But, note the context. I said that if you have to choose CARTRIDGE BEARING HUBS, at least go for the best of the worst. The last few words now a bit embellished for emphasis.

The hubs on my road bike are Campag - cup and cone. These are particularly remarkable, having done in excess of 200 000 kms, I've never replaced balls or races or in fact opened them. Grease is injected via a grease port and cone adjustment is done with the wheels in the bike. Also, they come in several beautiful colours, silver, silver and silver. 

I'm off to go and find my ginko beloba, can't remember where I keep it.


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## Elybazza61 (1 Dec 2016)

Been really pleased with my hand-builts which are Archetypes with Novatec 711/712 hubs and Sapim non-bladed spokes built by The Bicycle Ambulance in Cambridge;got them in July 2014 and now getting on for over 6,000kms without any problems,should probably get them looked at in the spring though.

If it's any help I can say that I've run both Schwalbe S-Ones and Hutchinson Sectors tubeless on the Archetypes with no problems but if I was buying now I'd get the new Hydra rims which are wider.

Another option would be the Kinlin rims which are also tubeless ready.

This guy is well recommended and has a good list of disc specific builds;

http://thecycleclinic.co.uk/collections/road-disc-brake-wheelsets


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## EasyPeez (1 Dec 2016)

Yellow Saddle said:


> Now why couldn't I find that bit? It scares me that you remember stuff I said better than myself. Anyway.
> 
> As for point 4, the problem remains. Hope simply delays it with a bearing bigger than other cartridge bearing hubs such as American Classic and other wheels aimed at the light end of the market and thus forced to use small bearings.
> 
> ...



Ok, understood. 

Without wishing to labour the point, my reason for wanting cartridge bearings is that I could service them myself. I wouldn't have the skills to pre-load or adjust cup and cone I don't think. 

So taking on board your assertion that Hope bearings would be somewhere in the region of 6x more expensive than Shimano to maintain in terms of parts, when you factor in that I would have to pay a mechanic every time I needed my Shimano hubs servicing (I don't know that this would cost but would guess at somewhere around the £30-50 mark?) aren't the Shimanos going to work out to be more expensive in the long-term?
I realise that even if they are the fact remains that they will spend less time out of service/provide longer periods of worry-free riding but you could counter that with the fact that cartridge bearings would mean no faffing with trips to the bike shop and allow the satisfaction of doing a job on the bike myself?

Or am I making a mountain out of a molehill around the issue of maintaining and setting up cup and cone bearings?


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## EasyPeez (1 Dec 2016)

Re: spokes, sorry to be slow, but I'm not sure I follow... 



Yellow Saddle said:


> The centre shank of a Revolution spoke is 1.5mm. The centre shank of a D-Light spokes is 1.65mm. The centre shank of a Race spoke is 1.8mm. Given those figures, there's nothing else to say about what they weigh. They weigh what they weigh because dimensions are dimensions. There's no where to save weight or hide weight on solid wire.



To me these quotes read as if you are saying that there is no difference in the durability of a spoke based on it's dimensions. So the choice between Race/D-Light/Laser would be one purely based on weight to price ratio? So an audax rider choosing Race spokes over Lasers is doing so purely to save money and because he is not worried about the extra bit of weight, not because he wants thicker/more durable spokes?



Yellow Saddle said:


> Thus a wheel with 1.8mm spokes will not last longer than a wheel with 1.5mm spokes. The latter lasts the longest under the same conditions.



But then this last bit confuses me further as it seems to suggest that a thinner spoke is actually more durable.


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## Yellow Saddle (1 Dec 2016)

The latter. I would think it is easier to service a cup and cone bearing than a cartridge bearing hub. However, both skills are easy to learn with the right tuition. I suggest a video or two on Youtube and a look at the Sheldon Brown website for correct preload adjustment of cup and cone bearings.


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## Yellow Saddle (1 Dec 2016)

Let's see if I can explain.



EasyPeez said:


> Re: spokes, sorry to be slow, but I'm not sure I follow...
> To me these quotes read as if you are saying that there is no difference in the durability of a spoke based on it's dimensions. So the choice between Race/D-Light/Laser would be one purely based on weight to price ratio? So an audax rider choosing Race spokes over Lasers is doing so purely to save money and because he is not worried about the extra bit of weight, not because he wants thicker/more durable spokes?



Firstly, there's no statement in that paragraph that refers to durability. It was merely a paragraph to demystify the OP's paraphrase of someone else's (DR-Something wheels IIRC) BS-ing about weight. The biggest error in your analysis of what I said is that thicker spokes are more durable. They are NOT. 





EasyPeez said:


> But then this last bit confuses me further as it seems to suggest that a thinner spoke is actually more durable.



Yes, it is confusing because it is counter-intuitive and fueled by stupid nomenclature by spoke companies. For instance, they call their extra-thick spokes Strong - they actually name them Strong. It is wrong.

Firstly you have to understand the difference between strong and durable. All spokes are strong enough for the job. There is no bicycle on earth where, when you mount, the spokes break. Therefore the wheels are strong enough. Durability on the other hand is all about longevity. Strength over time, if you wish. Durability in spokes is their ability to fight off metal fatigue, the primary failure mode of spokes. Metal fatigue is what happens when you sit and bend a piece of wire repeatedly until it breaks. It would be silly to say you are so strong you can break a piece of coat hanger wire, since it wasn't your strength that broke the wire but your repeated soft attack on it that caused it to weaken and break. That's exactly what happens with spokes. At the elbow end, the repeated tension and reduced-tension cycles caused by riding bends the elbow back and forth, once per revolution of the wheel. If the spokes can withstand that attack for hundreds of thousands of kilometers, we consider the wheel durable. 

The same happens at the first valley (root) of the last thread at the spoke's threaded end. The last thread is the inside one closest to the elbow. That is the spoke's weakest point because it is the first thin point just adjacent to a thick part of the spoke. This part of the spoke is under huge stress because of the cyclical changes in tension and the fact that the neat V cut into the metal can be the source of cracks starting to happen. Imagine a packet of crisps - just the plastic packet. If you cut out a piece of the packet and keep the cut smooth, it is difficult to tear the piece However, if you cut (usually bite.) at notch in the smooth section, it is easy to tear it. That is called a stress crack and is exactly what happens to a spoke at the last thread.

Now for the counter-intuitive bit. To be durable, spokes must have a weak section somewhere other than in the two vulnerable ends. That's right. We must design a section of spoke that's weaker than the weakest bit and add it into the spoke. In other words, if the spoke is 2mm thick, the section where it is threaded will have valleys of only 1.9mm thickness. Therefore we have to make a part of the spoke even thinner - say 1.8mm. The crux is to keep it smooth though. Remember the crisp packet? So we design a thinner (but beautifully smooth) shank in the middle of the spoke. This means, that if you stretch the spoke, the thin part elongates more than the thicker parts and in a way protect the thicker parts from, let's call it, stretch-attack. The thin part is weaker, but still strong enough for the job. The weak section will not break when you get on the bike.

Now the spoke is durable. By concentrating the cyclical stretching and relaxing movement in the spoke in the long, thin smooth shank, we have created a durable spring in the middle that protects the vulnerable thread and head.

By making the shank even thinner - say 1.5mm as in SAPIM Laser, DT Swiss Revolution and Wheelsmith X-Lite spokes, you have paradoxically created an even more durable spoke than the one that is 1.8mm in the centre. 

If you understand these principles, you will understand that the word Strong is wrong. A spoke that is 2mm or even 3mm throughout it's length is less durable than one that tapers to 1.5mm in the centre. The use of the name Strong in SAPIM's extra-thick spokes is thus comical. Of course they realise it but a long explanation like I've just given here doesn't condense easily into a sound bite. Besides, many mechanics just don't listen and refuse to understand. It would be commerciall suicide to not create a "Strong" spoke for them and take their money with a smile.

So, why aren't all wheels not built with Revolutions or Laser spokes? Cost. These spokes have extra manufacturing steps and that adds up. It much as doubles the manufacturing cost and that's reflected in retail prices. Secondly, it is very, very difficult to work with thin-shank spokes because they twist very easily and it takes special skill and tricks to not make them twist when tensioning the spokes. Just the difference in friction between brass and aluminium nipples makes it just about impossible to get them up to tension with high-friction aluminium nipples. Usually the builder is coerced into using aluminium nipples because the customer wrongly specifies 1.5mm spokes for weight reasons in the first place. Putting brass on there seems like sacrilege and pressure is put onto the builder to use aluminium. Big mistake! Building with 1.5mm spokes can double the build time. Time is money.

I hope this helps.


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## smutchin (1 Dec 2016)

EasyPeez said:


> So an audax rider choosing Race spokes over Lasers is doing so purely to save money and because he is not worried about the extra bit of weight, not because he wants thicker/more durable spokes?



The weight differences between different spokes are negligible. And for me, the weight differences between, say, 24 and 32 spokes are not enough to justify the lower spoke count for weight-saving reasons.

The main reason I use Race spokes is based on the advice in Roger Musson's book - ie that they're easier to build with because being slightly thicker they're less prone to twisting. If you're an experienced wheel builder or not building the wheel yourself, that's less of a concern, and there are other reasons to choose thinner spokes - Yellow Saddle has explained it all much better than I can.

For an individual home wheelbuilder, I don't think the cost difference between different spokes is all that significant - at most a few quid per wheel difference between say Revolution and Competition. I reckon it's only when you're building large quantities of stock wheels that the cost will become a significant factor. Or if you're using something really exotic.


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## Soltydog (1 Dec 2016)

EasyPeez said:


> Ok, understood.
> 
> Without wishing to labour the point, my reason for wanting cartridge bearings is that I could service them myself. I wouldn't have the skills to pre-load or adjust cup and cone I don't think.
> 
> ...



I've used Cotingham cycles a few times & found their rates to be very reasonable, just wish I lived a little nearer. I doubt a wheel service would be any where near £50??

I've had a couple of pairs of wheels built by @Spoked Wheels & they are top notch. My last pair are still running very well despite having a little shunt  A club mate ran into the back of me & the rear wheel took the brunt of it. It was ever so slightly out of true, a half turn of one spoke nipple trued it back up. Just got a 'little' scratch on my rim


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## EasyPeez (2 Dec 2016)

Yellow Saddle said:


> Let's see if I can explain.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I already understood the difference between strength and durability. The rest was all new to me, and perfectly explained. Thanks for taking the time to enlighten me and any others reading the thread. I did think it odd that the lighter a spoke was the higher the 'strength on middle section' that Sapim claim for it. Now it all makes sense and I feel more confident in which spokes to choose. Thank you.


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## Ajax Bay (2 Dec 2016)

EasyPeez said:


> am I making a mountain out of a molehill around the issue of maintaining and setting up cup and cone bearings?


OP, thank you for originating and sustaining this thread which is full of useful information, re-expressed.
As far as servicing hubs is concerned, provided they are cup and cone (for example Shimano), they really are rather easy to service and few tools are needed: a pair of cone spanners, basically, plus some grease and maybe, optionally, a fresh set of balls (though note YS's road bike ones have never been changed in tens of thousands of miles). You just take them apart (avoiding dropping anything and keeping the 3 or four items you've screwed off in order), leaving the RHS cone and locknut in place, clean everything out, clean the ball bearings, pack the grease in, pop the same number of balls back in, reassemble and tighten (bit of trial and error to get tightness optimal). Avuncular Robert he is. Once you've done it once it will seem (even more) straightforward and give you satisfaction both on completion and when riding. This Park Tools article is easy to follow.


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## Ian H (2 Dec 2016)

I've built my own wheels for the past 30 years, with the exception of a couple of pairs of carbon racing wheels. None have fallen apart.


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## Spoked Wheels (13 Dec 2016)

EasyPeez said:


> @Yellow Saddle - just wondered if you had any suggestions of better cartridge-bearing alternatives to the Hope hubs? I thought you had been quite glowing about them in other threads but your post earlier in this thread seemed quite negative. Any idea of average bearing life in mileage from your experience?
> @Spoked Wheels - what are your thoughts on Hope hubs? I'm a bit scared of the idea of trying to service non-cartridge bearings myself as have read that there's more of an art to it/it can be quite a faff to get the hang of...
> 
> Cheers.



I'm sorry @EasyPeez, I missed this alert. 

I don't think you should be too scared about servicing and adjusting cup and cone hubs. There's plenty of information on the net. There's a procedure but a lot of it is trial and error. The important thing is to follow the correct procedure and you will be fine. If you think you can change cartridges then I'd say you could service a cup and cone hub  

My only problem with Hope hubs is that are too noisy for me. It's a personal thing. Some people don't mind the noise. 

I just read your OP and although 24 spoke is OK for your 10 St - I'm not sure is right to build a wheel with 24 spokes when you intend to carry a rear load. I would not use laser spokes on the right side of the rear wheel either. 

Maybe a lighter rim like the Pacenti and 28 spokes..... just a thought


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## Yellow Saddle (14 Dec 2016)

Spoked Wheels said:


> I'm sorry @EasyPeez, I missed this alert.
> 
> I don't think you should be too scared about servicing and adjusting cup and cone hubs. There's plenty of information on the net. There's a procedure but a lot of it is trial and error. The important thing is to follow the correct procedure and you will be fine. If you think you can change cartridges then I'd say you could service a cup and cone hub
> 
> ...


Why would you not use Laser spokes on the right side? Right side of which wheel?


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## EasyPeez (14 Dec 2016)

Spoked Wheels said:


> I just read your OP and although 24 spoke is OK for your 10 St - I'm not sure is right to build a wheel with 24 spokes when you intend to carry a rear load.



Yes, that was a typo on my part, I meant 28, not sure why I typed 24. 



Spoked Wheels said:


> Maybe a lighter rim like the Pacenti and 28 spokes..... just a thought


I am pricing up components now and once the Christmas madness is out of the way, hope to be in touch to commission your services if you're still available. I think I am set on the rims and spokes, but feel less certain about hubs now.



Yellow Saddle said:


> Why would you not use Laser spokes on the right side? Right side of which wheel?



I was just about to ask the same question....

Also, I know Chris King are highly regarded for components so looked up some of their stuff as a possible alternative to Hope/Dura Ace, but these prices?! Surely there has to be some law of diminishing returns at work here? Or are these hubs actually in some quantifiable way more than twice as smooth/durable/well-constructed as Dura Ace hubs?
http://www.sigmasport.co.uk/item/Chris-King/R45-Disc-Rear-Hub-Shimano-9mm-QR-6-Bolt/7L0J


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## EasyPeez (14 Dec 2016)

Spoked Wheels said:


> I don't think you should be too scared about servicing and adjusting cup and cone hubs. There's plenty of information on the net. There's a procedure but a lot of it is trial and error. The important thing is to follow the correct procedure and you will be fine. If you think you can change cartridges then I'd say you could service a cup and cone hub



Thanks for that. 

Do you have strong opinions on cup & cone vs cartridge hubs from your own experience of riding and building? Do you have a favourite (or top 3?!) hubs of each type?

Cheers,

Andy


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## Spoked Wheels (14 Dec 2016)

EasyPeez said:


> Thanks for that.
> 
> Do you have strong opinions on cup & cone vs cartridge hubs from your own experience of riding and building? Do you have a favourite (or top 3?!) hubs of each type?
> 
> ...



Mmm not really, there are some people that would argue that cartridge bearings only offer linear angle and that is true but on a road wheel, I don't think it makes much difference. 

With cartridge bearings, you can get some really light weight hubs. The drawback with those hubs is that they have very small bearings and you have to replace them quite regurlarly. 

Novatec offers some decent hubs for the money. If money was no object I would mostly build with Hope hubs.

As for loose bearing hubs, DA are excellent hubs but pound per pound I think ultegra are better value for money BUT thet only come in 32 and 36 drilling. An alternative that I prefer in that drilling choice is the Campanolo Record..... with a Shimano freehub can be found too.

Now, in most cases, you can't hardly tell the difference from one hub to the other when riding a bike. My current hubs, Novarec, roll on forever and further than most but I think the extra handful of grams of body weight have a positive effect on a slight downhill road.


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## Yellow Saddle (14 Dec 2016)

EasyPeez said:


> I was just about to ask the same question....
> 
> Also, I know Chris King are highly regarded for components so looked up some of their stuff as a possible alternative to Hope/Dura Ace, but these prices?! Surely there has to be some law of diminishing returns at work here? Or are these hubs actually in some quantifiable way more than twice as smooth/durable/well-constructed as Dura Ace hubs?
> http://www.sigmasport.co.uk/item/Chris-King/R45-Disc-Rear-Hub-Shimano-9mm-QR-6-Bolt/7L0J



There is no reason under the sun why Laser, Revolution or other thin-shank double butted spokes should not be used on either side of the rim. As I've explained before, their durability is better and although they're thinner, they're still strong enough to accept any tension you can crank them up to. In fact, the nipple will round off or break before you can break the spokes in tension when building the wheel.

I think the reason why some say they shouldn't be used is primarily because they are so difficult to work with that pretending that they're "just not good enough for the type of wheels I build" is much easier than taking a bit more time and patience with the job. I say this because to date no-one has answered that question satisfactory.
It is not even a case of rather safe than sorry. The strength of stainless steel can be looked up on a table and the spoke's strength can be calculated from its cross-section, so even the strength is not a mystery.


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## Soltydog (14 Dec 2016)

Spoked Wheels said:


> Now, in most cases, you can't hardly tell the difference from one hub to the other when riding a bike. My current hubs, Novarec, roll on forever and further than most but I think the extra handful of grams of body weight have a positive effect on a slight downhill road.


Not exactly a glowing endorsement when you give them the novarec nickname


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