# More discouragement of cycling in Australia



## Shut Up Legs (26 Feb 2016)

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeands...ring-new-south-wales-police-blitz-on-thursday

Over 1000 Australians a year are killed on the roads, so what does the government do? Crack down on cyclists, of course. The last pedestrian death caused by a cyclist was in 2006 (I'm unaware of any previous such cases, but they may exist). Roughly 10-15 cyclists are killed by motor vehicle drivers a year in Australia.

Regards,

--- Victor.

P.S. I couldn't help smiling when reading one of the comments below the article, though:


> The trouble with cyclists is they are not making any contribution to climate change. It's unAustralian.


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## ianrauk (26 Feb 2016)

They really do hate cyclists down under don't they?


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## jefmcg (26 Feb 2016)

I love the irony. They are fining cyclist for riding on footpath (== pavement(uk)), for not dismounting on pedestrian crossings AND for not having a bell, which is only needed if you are share a facility with pedestrians. Bells are no use on the road.



Shut Up Legs said:


> Roughly 10-15 cyclists are killed by motor vehicle drivers a year in Australia.


it's much higher than that. I downloaded this yesterday.

https://bitre.gov.au/statistics/safety/files/BITRE_ARDD_Fatalities_Jan_2016_Amended.xlsx 45 in 2014 (though some of them were single vehicle, I don't know if that includes the bicycle or not), 31 last year.

On the upside:


> From Monday vehicles travelling under 60km/h will also need to give cyclists one metre’s room or pay a $319 fine and lose two demerit points. Those passing at more than 60km/h will need to give one and a half metres.



One the downside, that's the same fine as for not wearing a helmet. Which one is easier to prove? Which one is more likely to cause brain damage? (clue: the answer to each question is different)


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## jefmcg (26 Feb 2016)

I've just realised the worse part of this for Australians, cyclist or not. From next year, cyclists in NSW will be required to carry ID. That means that police will be able to demand that a cyclist produce ID, even if they have committed no offence. This is the thin end of a very nasty wedge of expanding police powers. Australians, like British, do not currently have to carry ID (unless they are driving, when they are expected to carry a license). I think they should think very carefully before giving the police (especially NSW police, unless their reputation has improved greatly) this power.

"First they came for the cyclists, but I said nothing ....."


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## Drago (26 Feb 2016)

One of the reasons a) I don't like the Country, and b) I don't live there. I terms of prejudices towards minorities and user groups they're half a century behind the rest the developed world.


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## jefmcg (26 Feb 2016)

speaking of prejudice

(when I moved to the UK, I felt I'd gone back 15/20 years in terms of smoking and sexism. And I still can't believe how acceptable it is to hate gypsies/travellers here. And using terms like oriental. Edit: and anti-semitism. It took me a long time to notice that one)


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## Shut Up Legs (27 Feb 2016)

A supportive article:
http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ere-comes-the-latest-anti-cycling-legislation

I don't dare read the comments, though. There's a lot of them, and they'll probably just depress me.


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## ianrauk (27 Feb 2016)

Shut Up Legs said:


> A supportive article:
> http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ere-comes-the-latest-anti-cycling-legislation
> 
> I don't dare read the comments, though. There's a lot of them, and they'll probably just depress me.


I read them, some of the usual bullcrap that you get from fat, lazy motons countered with the usual erudite responses from the cycle lobby. You can just see the anti cyclists putting their fingers in their ears and going lalalalalalalala.


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## dodgy (27 Feb 2016)




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## ManiaMuse (1 Mar 2016)

Kind of mad in a country obsessed with sport and with plenty of road and track cycling success over the years.


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## Drago (1 Mar 2016)

And they wonder why Australians are among the fattest people on the planet. Let them get on with it, eejuts.


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## Incontinentia Buttocks (1 Mar 2016)

Kind of makes you think the Aussie Old Bill have got nowt better to do, I mean who has time to stop and issue tickets to 210 people in one day? 
I write this as the Old Bill and I've not time to stop and eat most days.


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## Drago (1 Mar 2016)

You need to get your Ds ticket mate


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## steveindenmark (1 Mar 2016)

dodgy said:


>



Well if the law is that you have to wear a helmet and you dont. You can handlings be shocked if you get pulled.

As for carrying id. We all carry id in Denmark. Its our yellow cards which we use for everything from taking out a library books to getting medical treatment at the doctors or hospital. Its not a problem carrying it. With the amount of illegals in the UK I would have thought it would be an advantage to have a national ID scheme. It only becomes a problem if you have something to hide.

As for the old Bill having nothing else to do. I am guessing most of these tickets were issued to commuters on the way to work. A quiet time for police officers. They do this once or twice a year with cyclists jumping red lights in Copenhagen.

It may sound a pointless exercise but it will get the point across pretty quickly. The police are paid to enforce the laws of the land and fortunately the public dont get a vote as to which laws they enforce.


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## jefmcg (1 Mar 2016)

Drago said:


> And they wonder why Australians are among the fattest people on the planet. Let them get on with it, eejuts.


Please stop posting this ignorant rubbish.

Please.

Australia is bad. UK is worse. Scotland is much worse. 3 cheers for Wales and NI!

https://www.noo.org.uk/NOO_about_obesity/adult_obesity/international


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## jefmcg (1 Mar 2016)

ManiaMuse said:


> Kind of mad in a country obsessed with sport and with plenty of road and track cycling success over the years.


Ironically (or something) when a group of champion riders were in a collision with a teenage driver (one dead, several seriously injured) it happened in Germany, not Australia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amy_Gillett


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## steveindenmark (1 Mar 2016)

Jef,

I cannot see what an obesity table and an accident in Germany has to do with this post.


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## jefmcg (1 Mar 2016)

steveindenmark said:


> Jef,
> 
> I cannot see what an obesity table and an accident in Germany has to do with this post.



Obesity: do you have @Drago on your ignore list?
People keep saying how dangerous and anti cycling is, yet the accident that is driving a lot of safety lobbying in Australia happened in Germany. The Amy Gillett foundation does not have a problem with these laws, which makes me believe they firmly in the "cycling is dangerous" camp


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## simonsch (2 Mar 2016)

jefmcg said:


> speaking of prejudice
> 
> (when I moved to the UK, I felt I'd gone back 15/20 years in terms of smoking and sexism. And I still can't believe how acceptable it is to hate gypsies/travellers here. And using terms like oriental. Edit: and anti-semitism. It took me a long time to notice that one)



I completely agree with this. And prejudice is just dripping from the comment above this one.

I frequently cycle in both the UK and Australia. They are pretty similar in my experience in overall level of antagonism to cyclists. At least according to my father (who cycles in Australia), the actual practice of the application of law to "car bike interactions" is slightly ahead in Australia of the UK, in that there is more of a presumption of guilt on the part of the driver. Clearly there is a bit of a backlash currently in NSW, but they have just introduced a 1m rule - what are the chances we could get that in the UK?


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## Arrowfoot (2 Mar 2016)

I found that Aussies are cycling more and more. I see them coming out from every nook and corner. There are also bikes stores popping up. Their last PM would ride his racer with his lycra buddies before heading to Office. I suspect that the increase has caught their motorists out unsuspectingly and thus the noise.


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## Arrowfoot (2 Mar 2016)

I am not really sure about the stats. When you land in Oz, the first thing you see is oversized males and their protruding tummies. You would be hard pressed to see a male who is over 40 and not overweight. This is in comparison to UK males. I suspect that it has to do with culture of mateship, heat encouraging quaffing of beer liberally and meat rich barbies. And I don't blame them when the weather get really hot - nothing like a cold beer. 




jefmcg said:


> Please stop posting this ignorant rubbish.
> 
> Please.
> 
> ...


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## Shut Up Legs (2 Mar 2016)

There should definitely be more of this:
http://www.bicycles.net.au/forums/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=87869&p=1319277&hilit=martin#p1319277

I just hope the addressees of this letter actually read it.


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## Shut Up Legs (2 Mar 2016)

[QUOTE 4180464, member: 259"]I will not go there on holiday because of the idiotic helmet law. My daughter will be there next year for six months, and if it was anywhere else we would have gone, but we'll meet up in Thailand or Malaysia instead.[/QUOTE]
Understandable.
You certainly wouldn't want to visit the state of NSW in Australia, where you will now get fined for the most ridiculously trivial and harmless "offences", while all around you, motorists are failing to indicate properly (or at all), failing to give way, overtaking too closely, running red lights, using mobile phones while driving, regularly exceeding the speed limit, and of course blaming all their problems on cyclists.


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## steveindenmark (3 Mar 2016)

[QUOTE 4180464, member: 259"]I will not go there on holiday because of the idiotic helmet law. My daughter will be there next year for six months, and if it was anywhere else we would have gone, but we'll meet up in Thailand or Malaysia instead.[/QUOTE]

Do you really find helmets that uncomfortable or are you going to miss sharing the experience of a lifetime with your daughter because of a principle?

Thailand and Malaysia are nice but they are not the same experience that Australia is.

Fortunately, I can take or leave helmets. But I wouldnt miss a riding experience just because I had to wear a helmet.

If they bought the helmet law to the UK, would you stop riding. Im not having a go, I am just curiosity as to how far people who love riding will go not to wear a helmet.


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## jefmcg (3 Mar 2016)

[QUOTE 4180464, member: 259"]I will not go there on holiday because of the idiotic helmet law. My daughter will be there next year for six months, and if it was anywhere else we would have gone, but we'll meet up in Thailand or Malaysia instead.[/QUOTE]
Everyone has to pick a line they won't cross, but is that really the one you want to pick? Do you really think Australian helmet laws are worse than Malaysian anti-sedition laws or the Thai lese majeste laws (a man is facing 37 years jail for being rude about the King's rescue dog)? Or sticking with Australia, do you really feel it's worse than the Government's policy on refugees? 

(totally understanding you not wanting to live there, but that's a different thing)


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## jefmcg (3 Mar 2016)

Shut Up Legs said:


> I just hope the addressees of this letter actually read it.


They are not going to read it. They wouldn't accept a petition with 10,000 signatures from their electorate, why would they read a letter?

(Apparently if the petition was on paper, they would have been obliged to debate it, but as it's an online petition, they are legally if not morally free to ignore it. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-...gainst-nsw-government-cyclist-laws-id/7172488 )

Obviously, driving in Sydney would actually be better if there were more cyclists on the road, and less drivers. But even if you quadrupled the numbers of riders, there would still be traffic jams, and drivers would still perceive cyclists as being part of the problem, not part of the solution. The Government has a choice: encourage cycling, and make commuting in Sydney a little bit better for everyone, or appeal to the base instincts of angry drivers, take a stick to cyclists, make everything a little worse - but no one will blame the Government, except the cyclists and who listens to them, they jump red lights blah blah blah. When the second affect comes, when all the people who decided cycling wasn't worth it under this draconian system hit the health system with obesity and inactivity disorders, no one will link it to this Government's rules. And even if they did, who cares, they'll all be retired on fat pensions and with well paid part time board position for companies their policies supported.

This has got me so mixed up that I misread Cash for cycling? Polluted Milan wants to pay commuters to bike to work as "Milan wants commuters to pay to bike to work"


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## Shut Up Legs (4 Mar 2016)

I'm so bloody ashamed to be Australian, right now. I really wish I could afford to leave. 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...in-world-s-toughest-regime?platform=hootsuite


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## jefmcg (4 Mar 2016)

Shut Up Legs said:


> I'm so bloody ashamed to be Australian, right now. I really wish I could afford to leave.
> 
> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...in-world-s-toughest-regime?platform=hootsuite



Wow


> “If one cyclist chooses to now wear a helmet because of the new penalties, we consider that a win for cyclist safety,” Carlon said in an e-mail.



Even if you believed that every road fatality could be prevented by helmets, that's a nonsense statement. According to the Government, 1.09 million ride their bicycles at least once a week in NSW. Number of fatalities is 11. So one extra person wearing a helmet would reduce that to .... 11. And there are around 1,500 serious injuries. Assume that all serious injuries are head injuries, and that helmet wearing will prevent all of them. Then the single helmet wearer will reduce serious injuries by 0.0014 people or 0.0001%. 

Yup, that's a win in anyone's language.


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## glenn forger (5 Mar 2016)

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10206830922144910&id=1031985234

It's the Constable Savage sketch.


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## YahudaMoon (7 Mar 2016)

Shut Up Legs said:


> Over 1000 Australians a year are killed on the roads, so what does the government do? Crack


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## steveindenmark (7 Mar 2016)

Shut Up Legs said:


> I'm so bloody ashamed to be Australian, right now. I really wish I could afford to leave.
> 
> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...in-world-s-toughest-regime?platform=hootsuite



Because of cycle laws? You must be joking.

Come to Europe. It's bloody freezing, everything's flooding and we have a huge refugee crisis.

Makes wearing a helmet a bit of a non starter doesn't it.


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## classic33 (7 Mar 2016)

steveindenmark said:


> Because of cycle laws? You must be joking.
> 
> Come to Europe. It's bloody freezing, everything's flooding and we have a huge refugee crisis.
> 
> Makes wearing a helmet a bit of a non starter doesn't it.


Refugee crisis is worldwide.

We don't have anyone(group or individual) "mining" stretches of road with tacks/caltrops purely aimed at cyclists either.

Gets cold, you dress for it.


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## steveindenmark (8 Mar 2016)

classic33 said:


> Refugee crisis is worldwide.
> 
> We don't have anyone(group or individual) "mining" stretches of road with tacks/caltrops purely aimed at cyclists either.
> 
> Gets cold, you dress for it.



I'm in Denmark. I don't need to be told about dressing for the cold.

I doubt if Australia has the same refugee problem as Europe.

It may be a cyclist laying the tacks.


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## classic33 (8 Mar 2016)

steveindenmark said:


> I'm in Denmark. I don't need to be told about dressing for the cold.
> 
> I doubt if Australia has the same refugee problem as Europe.
> 
> It may be a cyclist laying the tacks.


You don't have to wear a helmet when you want to go cycling. Or be fined for not doing so.


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## Arrowfoot (8 Mar 2016)

glenn forger said:


> https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10206830922144910&id=1031985234
> 
> It's the Constable Savage sketch.



I will be cautious as it seems like a windup. The cops in 2 police vehicles stopping a lady in heels riding a 1970 retro bike with front basket for dangerous riding and poor riding attire. Too many red flags. Only thing missing is her name could be Mary Poppins.


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## jefmcg (8 Mar 2016)

steveindenmark said:


> I doubt if Australia has the same refugee problem as Europe.


And you'd be wrong. Australia has been mistreating refugees since the 1990s, imprisoning them in offshore and inshore camps, paying neighbouring countries to hold them or defining parts of Australia as being foreign soil so they don't have to honour the UN conventions they have signed for treatment of refugees on their soil. I was in Germany on September 11 2001, and in the morning of that day, the biggest news was the Tampa Affair. Of course the focus moved elsewhere that afternoon.

But there's no fleeing Australia's refugee policy, as it's being rapidly adopted by European nations,



steveindenmark said:


> Because of cycle laws? You must be joking.



I think you are missing the severity of them. 



> Increasing penalties to help improve safety on our roads for bicycle riders who are:
> Not a wearing helmet (from $71 to $319)
> Running a red light (from $71 to $425)
> Riding dangerously (from $71 to $425)
> ...



So a single interaction with a belligerent cop could get you $1275 (>£650 or 2 weeks gross income if you are on minimum adult wage) in fines. That's enough to make someone feel driving is cheaper. And certainly enough for someone who cops a fine to decide stop cycling for good.


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## simonsch (9 Mar 2016)

I have to admit to a bit of schadenfreude here - apparently it was a bit of a bad day on the roads in Sydney yesterday:
http://www.smh.com.au/comment/sydne...d-catch-public-transport-20160308-gne5lw.html


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## Drago (9 Mar 2016)

steveindenmark said:


> I doubt if Australia has the same refugee problem as Europe.



It sure does, but - right or wrong - they'd prepared to deal with it decisively.


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## Bollo (9 Mar 2016)

Drago said:


> It sure does, but - right or wrong - they'd prepared to deal with it decisively.


SC&P <--------==


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## dodgy (10 Mar 2016)

http://road.cc/content/news/182150-sydney-cyclists-reportedly-fined-£225-trackstanding



> Sydney cyclists reportedly fined £225 - for trackstanding - See more at: http://road.cc/content/news/182150-...fined-£225-trackstanding#sthash.xHooZayi.dpuf


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## simonsch (10 Mar 2016)

dodgy said:


> http://road.cc/content/news/182150-sydney-cyclists-reportedly-fined-£225-trackstanding



Wow.


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## Shut Up Legs (11 Mar 2016)

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeands...n-sydney-roads-nsw-cyclists-on-new-road-rules

The backlash begins...


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## Milkfloat (11 Mar 2016)

Although to be fair - nobody has any idea what they were actually charged for. It is total conjecture that it was dangerous riding or for trackstanding.


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## dodgy (14 Mar 2016)

One day we'll have a positive cycling story from Australia.
http://road.cc/content/news/182480-tack-saboteurs-end-uci-gran-fondo-qualification-hopes


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## jefmcg (14 Mar 2016)

I just checked out a Sydney newspaper to see if there was any more news about the track stands, found this quote 


> Mr [Roads minister Duncan] Gay said that if one life was saved by the new measures, "it will be worth it".
> 
> "The penalty levels for bicycle riders for road rules offences are being increased so that the fines better reflect the road safety risk they pose for bicycle riders and other road users."



Well, aside from that being nonsense, it's as if he doesn't seen any upside to cycling; that's it's something bad that should be curbed and would be ok if it stopped completely, like smoking or drinking.

Not surprisingly (but shockingly) this article turned up in a side bar: Amputations due to diabetes up 25 per cent in two years. So in the same state, NSW, they are having a terrifying increase in diabetes. According to the article, it's increasing in incidence by 7-10% each year (ie doubling every 8-10 years) or more frightening as per the headline 25% more amputations over 2 years - which suggests doubling the number of diabetics in 6 years. 

(Diabetes rates in Australia and the UK are both about 5%. I wonder what will be the status by 2020)


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## Shut Up Legs (15 Mar 2016)

The NSW police in Australia are now apparently using their Riot Squad to hand out traffic infringement notices to cyclists:
http://www.bicycles.net.au/forums/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=89238

Just in case anyone was thinking of protesting these new harsher laws for cycling:
http://www.bicycles.net.au/forums/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=89238#p1335604

 Words fail me...


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## jefmcg (15 Mar 2016)

jefmcg said:


> Everyone has to pick a line they won't cross, but is that really the one you want to pick? Do you really think Australian helmet laws are worse than Malaysian anti-sedition laws or the Thai lese majeste laws (a man is facing 37 years jail for being rude about the King's rescue dog)? Or sticking with Australia, do you really feel it's worse than the Government's policy on refugees?
> 
> (totally understanding you not wanting to live there, but that's a different thing)


Apologies @User259. With hefty fines against cyclists enforced by riot police and (pending) 7 years imprisonment for protesting against mining, you now have my blessing to boycott Australia, or at the very least, NSW.


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## jefmcg (15 Mar 2016)

Shut Up Legs said:


> The NSW police in Australia are now apparently using their Riot Squad to hand out traffic infringement notices to cyclists:
> http://www.bicycles.net.au/forums/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=89238
> 
> Just in case anyone was thinking of protesting these new harsher laws for cycling:
> ...



Yeah, you can no longer pretend this isn't some sort of campaign. Here's a lovely picture of armed** riot police, with their small-penis car mounted the footpath and blocking a bus lane, taking to task a dangerous felon.







I agree with one of the posters on the linked sites, that it's almost certainly a sock-based crime. I know an poor English kid who was given a swirly on his first day in an Australian high school. I'll leave it as an exercise to google "swirly".

**that's a bit of a cheat, because all Australian police are armed. This is not a good thing.


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## jefmcg (17 Mar 2016)




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## jefmcg (24 May 2016)

NSW seems to be making huge steps in their project to outlaw the blight that is cycling.

*Cyclists bear brunt of new road fines as NSW Liberals accused of 'dash for cash'*
About 1,500 cyclists but only four motorists have been fined after the introduction of new road laws


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## david k (27 May 2016)

steveindenmark said:


> Well if the law is that you have to wear a helmet and you dont. You can handlings be shocked if you get pulled.
> 
> As for carrying id. We all carry id in Denmark. Its our yellow cards which we use for everything from taking out a library books to getting medical treatment at the doctors or hospital. Its not a problem carrying it. With the amount of illegals in the UK I would have thought it would be an advantage to have a national ID scheme. It only becomes a problem if you have something to hide.
> 
> ...


Is there any abuse of this? Ie people losing it and someone else then using it, or people making false ones? 
I like the idea but worry it could lead to more issues


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## Shut Up Legs (7 Jun 2016)

Discourage cycling for long enough, and this is what you get: http://bitre.gov.au/publications/2015/files/is_071_fp.pdf 
The summary page at the start says cycling has decreased in Australia between 2011 and 2013, and the subsequent sections support this. Meanwhile, Australians just get fatter and the motor vehicle still rules here.


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## Shut Up Legs (28 Jul 2016)

A pretty well-written article, I think (a pity about some of the comments, though, and I wish I'd resisted the urge to read any of them):

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...cycling-laws-are-taking-the-public-for-a-ride
According to Carlon and Gay, Australia's approach to cyclists (mandatory helmets, large fines for pretty minor infringements) is correct, and the rest of the world is incorrect.


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## steveindenmark (28 Jul 2016)

It is unfortunate that the law of the land in Australia makes you wear a helmet. I wear one voluntarily in Denmark. But you have that law and you must abide by it. The previous fine was $71 and that should have been enough of a deterrent to make people wear helmets, it would have been for me and so raising the fines to $1000 would have had no effect, my helmet would have been on to begin with. I cannot see how anyone can defend red light jumpers and so raising that fine ten fold cannot be a bad thing. Obviously Mr Gay is an idiot and has no interest in public health or reducing greenhouse emissions. But we all have idiot politicians. 

You can have the helmet debate all day long but it is just going round in circles. That law is an ass but its the law, whether you like it or not. I don't like seat belts, but I have to wear one.

Now if they increased the mobile phone use fine in cars 20 fold. That would make some sense.


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## jarlrmai (28 Jul 2016)

People can and should campaign against laws they consider to be counterproductive, it's part of living in a democracy.


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## steveindenmark (28 Jul 2016)

jarlrmai said:


> People can and should campaign against laws they consider to be counterproductive, it's part of living in a democracy.


I agree with that, but disobeying a law is not campaigning. You campaign, get the law revoked and then stop wearing a helmet.


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## Brandane (28 Jul 2016)

steveindenmark said:


> Now if they increased the mobile phone use fine in cars 20 fold. That would make some sense.


The current fine and points for mobile phone use is enough of a deterrent for the vast majority of drivers; it's the slim chances of being caught that make it meaningless. Same goes for speeding, drink driving, jumping red lights, lane hogging, etc. etc..
No point in having a load of laws on the statute books if they are not enforced, and they won't be enforced if there are no Police Officers out and about to do it!


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## jarlrmai (28 Jul 2016)

steveindenmark said:


> I agree with that, but disobeying a law is not campaigning. You campaign, get the law revoked and then stop wearing a helmet.



Campaigning by disobeying a law has a long history of being effective.


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## steveindenmark (28 Jul 2016)

Brandane said:


> The current fine and points for mobile phone use is enough of a deterrent for the vast majority of drivers;!



Recent figures in Denmark show that more accidents are caused by mobile phone users than drink drivers.

In my eyes the sentences should be the same.


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## steveindenmark (28 Jul 2016)

jarlrmai said:


> Campaigning by disobeying a law has a long history of being effective.



I'm guessing it wont work with the administration in place in Australia. They will just keep taking money off cyclists. Its just too easy.


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## Brandane (28 Jul 2016)

steveindenmark said:


> Recent figures in Denmark show that more accidents are caused by mobile phone users than drink drivers.


Perhaps there are more people using mobile phones whilst driving than there are drink drivers; ergo they are going to be involved in more accidents.
95% of statistics are misleading.


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## Shut Up Legs (22 Nov 2016)

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...-in-sydney-the-nsw-government-must-be-pleased

A pretty sorry state of affairs, when even Cadel Evans says he finds cycling in NSW intimidating, and cycling numbers have dropped markedly following the anti-cyclist legislation. I've said before I wish I could leave Australia, but at least I'm not living in the state of NSW.


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## Tin Pot (22 Nov 2016)

War on Drugs
War on Terror
Now...
War on Cycling


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## Phil Fouracre (22 Nov 2016)

Amazing, almost as good as the police patrol that ran over a cyclist because they wouldn't stop. What is it about Australian police? Is it too much sun?
Must admit though, when we were over there, they seemed to have some very strange laws!


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## Shut Up Legs (27 Nov 2016)

Australia (especially the State of NSW) continues to set the very worst example, despite the efforts of journalists such as this one, who has consistently advocated for more tolerance and understanding of cyclists in Australia:
http://www.executivestyle.com.au/what-does-riding-dangerously-mean-for-cyclists-gswfcp


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## Drago (27 Nov 2016)

They don't have PACE in Oz, so most people plead guilty in Court to avoid getting beaten up. I've known more than one UK bobby emigrate to join the police over there, only to come back because they couldn't get their heads round the casual and needless brutality.


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## Shut Up Legs (7 Dec 2016)

Another article about cycling discouragement in Australia. I wonder what it will take for our government to listen, though?

http://www.executivestyle.com.au/is-cycling-in-australia-really-so-bad-gt5q9w


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## hobo (7 Dec 2016)

You should see the way they treat the Aborigines


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## simonsch (8 Dec 2016)

hobo said:


> You should see the way they treat the Aborigines



Guyanga-ndhi yawarra dhu


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## simonsch (22 Jan 2017)

There was movement at the station... actually, on Macquarie Street, where Mike Baird has resigned as Premier. This sets into motion all sorts of things likely to affect cyclists in NSW. Duncan Gay, Roads Minister, who is responsible for much of the abovesaid nonsense, is likely to be out. The new premier will almost certainly be Gladys Berejiklian, who is progressive and well respected. I understand she has been quite supportive of funding cycling infrastructure. I can't imagine that some of the stupider rules described in previous posts will be removed, but a lot of the problems have I think really been about how the police are prosecuting / interpreting them - the message being sent down from above matters a lot, and Duncan Gay was sending the message that cyclists should be pushed off the roads. So some grounds for optimism. 

(I keep watch on this situation because I have several times considered moving back to Sydney - where I lived for while in the 1990s - but ruled it out largely because of the poor transport infrastructure, and more recently the attitude to cycling).


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## MarkF (22 Jan 2017)

[QUOTE 4180464, member: 259"]I will not go there on holiday because of the idiotic helmet law. My daughter will be there next year for six months, and if it was anywhere else we would have gone, but we'll meet up in Thailand or Malaysia instead.[/QUOTE]

I feel bad about my cousin from Sydney visiting me every other year for our tours, but I am not flying all the way out there to have to wear a helmet.



steveindenmark said:


> Fortunately, I can take or leave helmets. But I wouldnt miss a riding experience just because I had to wear a helmet.



I would. The experience would be seriously impaired for me.


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## simonsch (13 Feb 2017)

You know, the helmets is the least of the issues here. Someone got fined $475 for riding "on the road, in jeans and heels".


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## jefmcg (13 Feb 2017)

simonsch said:


> You know, the helmets is the least of the issues here. Someone got fined $475 for riding "on the road, in jeans and heels".


Link?


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## simonsch (13 Feb 2017)

jefmcg said:


> Link?



Sorry, can't find it right now. It came up in my Facebook feed a few days ago.


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## Shut Up Legs (26 Apr 2017)

This goes a bit beyond "discouragement" of cycling  :
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/leader/...a/news-story/cb567a71b7bdbd71cb94912c8aadcd3d


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## Milzy (26 Apr 2017)

jefmcg said:


> speaking of prejudice
> 
> (when I moved to the UK, I felt I'd gone back 15/20 years in terms of smoking and sexism. And I still can't believe how acceptable it is to hate gypsies/travellers here. And using terms like oriental. Edit: and anti-semitism. It took me a long time to notice that one)


The travellers around these parts are constantly leaving their rubbish behind, pooing in people's gardens stealing things. Brawling. Why do people hate them so much? Maybe they're just jealous of their awesome way of life?


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## ianrauk (26 Apr 2017)

Shut Up Legs said:


> This goes a bit beyond "discouragement" of cycling  :
> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/leader/...a/news-story/cb567a71b7bdbd71cb94912c8aadcd3d


That's insane. Chainsaw ffs


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## Milzy (26 Apr 2017)

jefmcg said:


> Please stop posting this ignorant rubbish.
> 
> Please.
> 
> ...


Look, the USA can't get enough corn syrup down their necks.


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## Drago (26 Apr 2017)

I don't like Australia. A potentially amazing continent, wasted entirely on the Australians.


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## jefmcg (26 Apr 2017)

Milzy said:


> The travellers around these parts are constantly leaving their rubbish behind, pooing in people's gardens stealing things. Brawling. Why do people hate them so much? Maybe they're just jealous of their awesome way of life?


Every racist thinks they are not racist because what the believe about the race they hate is 'true". Only in the UK amongst enlightened countries is this sort of discourse considered acceptable. Then they think they have the right to call others racist.


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## simonsch (26 Apr 2017)

Drago said:


> I don't like Australia. A potentially amazing continent, wasted entirely on the Australians.


 
I don't like the way Brexit seems to have brought the bigots in the UK out in force, and convinced them that it is OK to say such things.


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## Saluki (26 Apr 2017)

Drago said:


> I don't like Australia. A potentially amazing continent, wasted entirely on the Australians.


Last time I was there - 2009 and Darwin, Wilson Crescent, Moil to be exact - our hosts told us that it is now wrong to call the indigenous people 'bloody aboes' and now refer to them as 'them black fellas' so felt that there was an improvement. There thoughts on Muslims was pretty horrific. They had not 'improved' in that department

They were horrified when we went off cycling most days. We had packed our helmets, knowing the Aussie law about them. We encountered no problems with other road users in Darwin, there were quite a lot of people on bikes. We were riding near the University are though, so maybe that is why.


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## jefmcg (26 Apr 2017)

Shut Up Legs said:


> This goes a bit beyond "discouragement" of cycling  :
> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/leader/...a/news-story/cb567a71b7bdbd71cb94912c8aadcd3d


This is really bad. 

I don't think you should take a single incidence of Mad-Max style violence as indicative of anything. 

It occurred to me to compare this with barbed wire across bicycle paths. Google seems to indicate that is much more common here than in Australia, and here that offence only warrants a couple of hundred pounds fine and a "thinking skills" course.


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## simonsch (26 Apr 2017)

Saluki said:


> Last time I was there - 2009 and Darwin, Wilson Crescent, Moil to be exact - our hosts told us that it is now wrong to call the indigenous people 'bloody aboes' and now refer to them as 'them black fellas' so felt that there was an improvement. There thoughts on Muslims was pretty horrific. They had not 'improved' in that department
> 
> They were horrified when we went off cycling most days. We had packed our helmets, knowing the Aussie law about them. We encountered no problems with other road users in Darwin, there were quite a lot of people on bikes. We were riding near the University are though, so maybe that is why.



Amazing as it may be to some, there are a diversity of people and views in Australia.


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## jefmcg (26 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4777362, member: 43827"]Wow! Australia sounds amazing. No racism.[/QUOTE]
I never said there was no racism in Australia, I was just objecting to British people saying it was much worse than in the UK.

What is definitely true is that open racism is much more acceptable amongst the educated middle class people in the UK than in Australia. I have no idea who amongst my Australian friends is antisemitic, because they would never reveal that part of themselves. I do know many antisemitic Londoners.


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## jefmcg (26 Apr 2017)

Glow worm said:


> I suspect the remark was made tongue in cheek. I


One of those things that gets funnier the more you say it?


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## simonsch (26 Apr 2017)

Anyway, FTW:


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## jefmcg (26 Apr 2017)

English person: "Australia is a terrible country, because of all the racism. But on the bright side, there aren't many gypsies there'


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## Glow worm (26 Apr 2017)

jefmcg said:


> One of those things that gets funnier the more you say it?



Blimey- fair enough!


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## simonsch (26 Apr 2017)

jefmcg said:


> English person: "Australia is a terrible country, because of all the racism. But on the bright side, there aren't many gypsies there'



Exactly.

On a related note, a colleague recently discovered that his son was wearing gloves to school on a hot day. It turned out that the other kids insisted on it "so that they wouldn't get French DNA on them". There is plenty of it (racism, not French DNA - well, probably that too) here in the UK - and it seems to be becoming more acceptable to voice such views, which worries me. (Certainly I am not claiming it is better in Australia - but it is definitely a lot better in Australia now than it was when I was growing up in country Australia in the 1980s).


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## simonsch (26 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4777404, member: 43827"]A serious point. Is making jokes about any nationality ever acceptable?

As a Welshman I must admit I have never taken "sheepshagger" as a racist insult, or taken the comments about our supposed dour nature as racist.[/QUOTE]

It does depend on the context. If every time there was a discussion in this forum about cycling incidents in Wales, the same person piped up "but they're all just sheepshaggers, they probably deserve it", it may not be.


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## simonsch (26 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4777437, member: 43827"]Sorry, you just replied just after I deleted my post, and I agree with your point.

I deleted it because I remembered that threads involving discussion of racism often descend into insults.[/QUOTE]

Matched deletion above to preempt similar. Lets stick to chainsaws.


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## jefmcg (26 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4777437, member: 43827"]I deleted my post,[/QUOTE]
Good call. I was torn between continuing the derail or not. Thanks.

Now, back to chainsaws.

I had wondered how you injure someone with a chainsaw, but not kill them. Looks like the incident was not quite as bad as it sounds. They were attacked by a man with a pole and bitten by his dog, and then chased with a chainsaw. Terrifying, but not on the scale of being actually struck with a running chainsaw. 

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/m...h-chainsaw-in-dandenongs-20170426-gvt3g0.html
Approaching with a running chainsaw, is not an attack, it's to drive them away. You could easily outrun him on foot - as you are not carrying a petrol engine that could kill you if you trip - and of course, they had bikes. Doesn't mean it's ok, but it's just not this.

Unsurprisingly, the police have a suspect "Loony with dog close enough to scene to go home and get a chainsaw" must narrow down the search a bit.


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## Milzy (26 Apr 2017)

There's only 2 things I hate in the world and that's racists and Gypsies.


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## Saluki (26 Apr 2017)

simonsch said:


> Amazing as it may be to some, there are a diversity of people and views in Australia.


The people we stayed with were racist bigots. We no longer have anything to do with them. However, most people we met over there were lovely, open minded folk.


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## Markymark (26 Apr 2017)

Saluki said:


> The people we stayed with were racist bigots. We no longer have anything to do with them. However, most people we met over there were lovely, open minded folk.


It's almost as if a population of over 20million has a spectrum of opinions, well there's a thing.


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## Saluki (26 Apr 2017)

Markymark said:


> It's almost as if a population of over 20million has a spectrum of opinions, well there's a thing.


Now now. I was just saying.


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## classic33 (26 Apr 2017)

jefmcg said:


> Link?


Says she would now incur the fine
http://www.pennysharpe.com/no_bike_fine_increases


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## simonsch (26 Apr 2017)

classic33 said:


> Says she would now incur the fine
> http://www.pennysharpe.com/no_bike_fine_increases


Good find.


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## david k (1 May 2017)

steveindenmark said:


> Well if the law is that you have to wear a helmet and you dont. You can handlings be shocked if you get pulled.
> 
> As for carrying id. We all carry id in Denmark. Its our yellow cards which we use for everything from taking out a library books to getting medical treatment at the doctors or hospital. Its not a problem carrying it. With the amount of illegals in the UK I would have thought it would be an advantage to have a national ID scheme. It only becomes a problem if you have something to hide.
> 
> ...



That's interesting, what's the security like for the yellow badges, I worry for me is that someone may steal them, is it easier to pretend to be someone else?


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## jefmcg (2 May 2017)

jefmcg said:


> I've just realised the worse part of this for Australians, cyclist or not. From next year, cyclists in NSW will be required to carry ID. That means that police will be able to demand that a cyclist produce ID, even if they have committed no offence. This is the thin end of a very nasty wedge of expanding police powers. Australians, like British, do not currently have to carry ID (unless they are driving, when they are expected to carry a license). I think they should think very carefully before giving the police (especially NSW police, unless their reputation has improved greatly) this power.
> 
> "First they came for the cyclists, but I said nothing ....."


The could news is that this didn't happen.


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## jefmcg (2 May 2017)

User said:


> In your opinion. My experience is very different.


There is no ethic group in Australia that it is acceptable in polite discourse to denigrate the way gypsies/travels/romany are in the UK.

My first day in a UK workplace - a tech start up similar to the one I had left in Australia - I was introduced to "Gypsy" James. Called that because he "stole" something once. No one but me thought this was racist. With the casual sexual jokes in the workplace and smoking, I wondered if I'd been in a time machine and not an aeroplane


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## Shut Up Legs (16 Jun 2017)

I didn't know whether to post this here, or in the Indian Pacific Wheel Race thread:
https://cyclingthere.wordpress.com/...-mike-hall-the-ipwr-and-cycling-in-australia/

Unfortunately, Frank is spot on about the attitude to cyclists here - we're at the bottom of the pecking order, which is: motorists with big cars or trucks, then motorists with smaller cars, then motorcyclists, then pedestrians, and then cyclists. This won't change in my lifetime. 

I don't know if the above blog has been posted in CycleChat yet, after all it is a few months old now, but if it was, let me know, and I'll delete this post.


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## simonsch (16 Jun 2017)

Thanks - I think I read Frank's blog when it first came out but had not seem the comments made since.


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## Shut Up Legs (14 Jul 2017)

Again, Australia's getting notoriety worldwide for all the wrong reasons:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/13/...lists-melbourne.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&_r=0


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## Shut Up Legs (31 Jul 2017)

Throwing building tacks over a popular cycling route (see other thread: https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/t...14-in-inner-melbourne-no-end-in-sight.156092/) is bad enough, but then this :
https://www.bicyclenetwork.com.au/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=28697&start=15

The latest news is that a cyclist has (apparently) ended up in hospital because of the deliberate oil spill, and now police are calling for witnesses with any information.


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## Shut Up Legs (3 Oct 2017)

A motorist apparently deliberately aimed a car at a cyclist in Melbourne a month ago, and now I'm wondering why it took so long for the media to report it (anti-cyclist bias, perhaps?).
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/vi...t/news-story/0f12c56081185a5d4b62cf2fa7bd77f1


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## Banjo (4 Oct 2017)

Strange how cyclists pose no threat to motor vehicle drivers yet we must be seen as a challenge to them in some way .

I liked the analogy that if you separated a room full of people by the toss of a coin ,heads sat at one end of the room tails at the other it wouldn't take long for heads and tails to start hating each other.


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## simongt (5 Oct 2017)

Shut Up Legs said:


> we're at the bottom of the pecking order, which is: motorists with big cars or trucks, then motorists with smaller cars, then motorcyclists, then pedestrians, and then cyclists. This won't change in my lifetime.



Maybe the smugness that is suggested among the motoring fraternity is partly inverted because when they are sitting in a logjam caused by too many motor vehicles on the roads, many cyclists will, quite legally, get to the front of a queue / go onto a cycle lane / slip down a cycle only side street / get off and walk the bike to the front of the queue etc., etc..  Whilst the motorist sits and fumes in a situation of their own making.


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## jefmcg (5 Oct 2017)

[QUOTE 4845457, member: 259"]My daughter's spending a year in Melbourne, and while she's not normally very sensitive to things like this, she was pretty shocked at first at the kind of casual racism she came across a few times when out in a mixed race group. She says she's never seen anything so overt before, certainly not in the UK or Belgium.[/QUOTE]
Fascinating. I have a story that absolutely mirrors that. I was with a friend in Australia, when she got a late night (UK time) call from her daughter at the University Kent, who'd just moved into a shared house, and was shocked and distressed because she'd never confronted such racism in her 18 years in Melbourne.

What do we learn from this? That we don't recognise our own racism? That we misread other societies' behaviours as racist when they aren't? I am not sure, but it's not as simple as everyone here seems to think it is.


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## jefmcg (5 Oct 2017)

Shut Up Legs said:


> A motorist apparently deliberately aimed a car at a cyclist in Melbourne a month ago, and now I'm wondering why it took so long for the media to report it (anti-cyclist bias, perhaps?).
> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/vi...t/news-story/0f12c56081185a5d4b62cf2fa7bd77f1



Right on my old manor!


I wouldn't read anything in it not being reported for a month. No one was injured, so it might not have appeared that important in the scheme of things. It's well reported now the victim has stepped forward, so that all seems fine to me.

The BTL comments are another matter all together. The number of them who think there is something a young woman on a bike could do to a driver to warrant attempted murder is disturbing, equally those who think she probably made it up.


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## growingvegetables (5 Oct 2017)

jefmcg said:


> ... What do we learn from this? That we don't recognise our own racism? That we misread other societies' behaviours as racist when they aren't? I am not sure, but it's not as simple as everyone here seems to think it is.


Seconded - both. As in I'm not sure, plus it ain't anything like simple. 

Just a throw-away fwiw from an older guy, finding himself challenged to expand his understanding, based on his daughter's experience of studying in the US.

With a bottom line? Anybody "making it simple" is probably trying to hide summat unpleasant! Just a tuppenyworth .


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## Randy Butternubs (10 Oct 2017)

Since there are spectra of opinions and attitudes across a society perhaps one person's experience doesn't really mean much. That is to say, if you find a shocking number of racists in your life it might just be bad luck rather than an indication of a deeper social malaise. 

For example: anti-semitism in London was mentioned earlier in this thread by _*jefmcg*_. I find this astonishing as I have never heard the barest hint of it in some 20 odd years there. I lived in a very Jewish area though and was fairly immersed in the culture growing up. Is it my experience or _*jefmcg*_'s that is invalid? Probably both.


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## Shut Up Legs (29 Apr 2018)

View: https://www.facebook.com/SafeCyclingAustralia/videos/vb.220197534694324/1656631387717591/?type=2&theater


This time, the discouragement, and arguably also harassment, is from the police. That's how toxic the anti-cyclist culture is in Australia.


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## jarlrmai (29 Apr 2018)

jesus christ, driving around like the bloody hells angels.


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## Milkfloat (29 Apr 2018)

The victim should call the police. Oh, wait a minute, erm, as you were.


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