# Rim or disk brakes on same bike, why the extra price?



## Lucabike (19 Dec 2019)

Why, when you look at bikes online to buy, you can see the normal version and a disc version? And why is it more expensive?

Mod Note:
@Lucabike please do not post in large capital letters, stick to the forum's formatting.
Cheers!


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## raleighnut (19 Dec 2019)

Discs are perceived to be better and in certain circumstances they are, they are fugly though but I spose once you've got a fugly carbon frame it doesn't matter rhat much.


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## rualexander (19 Dec 2019)

Disc brake components are generally more expensive than rim brake components.


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## Yellow Saddle (19 Dec 2019)

More, and more complicated parts and higher assembly costs.


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## Andy in Germany (20 Dec 2019)

Lucabike said:


> Why, when you look at bikes online to buy, you can see the normal version and a disc version? And why is it more expensive?



All of the above, plus people will pay more for discs.

Rim brake versions will be available as long as there are enough of us holding out against the disc brake revolution...


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## PaulSB (20 Dec 2019)

I think I'm correct in saying the frame is different and may therefore be more expensive to manufacture. I can't see why it would be more costly but chuck this in as a possibility.

When I say cautiously the frame is different this is because I'm not aware of a frame which can take both rim and disc brakes depending on one's choice.


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## Pale Rider (20 Dec 2019)

I think one of the Spa Cycles disk brake bikes has mounting points for calliper brakes.

Can't think why you would want to.


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## Vantage (20 Dec 2019)

Spa's first generation Wayfarer will take both disc and V/cantilever brakes, although the brake studs aren't supplied as standard. Second gen models are disc only.
In addition to extra disc brake mounts needing to be welded/brazed/glued? on, the forks need to be beefed up and I think the same goes for the chainstay/seatstay depending on where the rear caliper is mounted. 
I'm unsure about other bikes, but my Wayfarer also has cable guides welded on specifically for disc brake cable routing.


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## Heltor Chasca (20 Dec 2019)

But the money saved replacing wheels every couple of years on rim brake bikes outweighs the extra cost for a disc brake bike. For that and many other reasons, discs are for me.


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## Andy in Germany (20 Dec 2019)

PaulSB said:


> I think I'm correct in saying the frame is different and may therefore be more expensive to manufacture. I can't see why it would be more costly but chuck this in as a possibility.
> 
> When I say cautiously the frame is different this is because I'm not aware of a frame which can take both rim and disc brakes depending on one's choice.



The only case I've found is on the Xtracycle extension, that's the silver frame seen here seen here bolted to the back of my elderly Raleigh MTB.







I'm using it with V-Brakes but there are mounts for discs. This makes sense as they wanted to make one unit that fitted any bike, but it is also a smaller and therefore probably stronger frame.

I'll ask the Elder Son if he's seen any disc/rim brake frames at work.


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## Zanelad (20 Dec 2019)

Bit of a thread drift, but what's the thinking behind the mods?

What's the handle under the seat for?

How is it standing up?

Yours, curious of Aylesbury


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## sleuthey (20 Dec 2019)

Heltor Chasca said:


> But the money saved replacing wheels every couple of years on rim brake bikes outweighs the extra cost for a disc brake bike. For that and many other reasons, discs are for me.


I have had a Boardman with rim brakes for 5 years and done approx 9000 miles, the brakes still work fine on the original rims. Am I very lucky or am I doing low mileage?


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## Andy in Germany (20 Dec 2019)

Zanelad said:


> Bit of a thread drift, but what's the thinking behind the mods?
> 
> What's the handle under the seat for?
> 
> ...



Ah, sorry, a classic case of "I know what I'm looking as so you should too"

Does this make more sense?






And this explains the handles:






I return you to the original thread.


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## simon.r (20 Dec 2019)

PaulSB said:


> I think I'm correct in saying the frame is different and may therefore be more expensive to manufacture. I can't see why it would be more costly but chuck this in as a possibility.
> 
> When I say cautiously the frame is different this is because I'm not aware of a frame which can take both rim and disc brakes depending on one's choice.



When discs started to become popular on MTB’s (late 90’s?) it wasn’t uncommon for frames and suspension forks to come with both disc and canti mounts - the latter were quite often removable.


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## Zanelad (20 Dec 2019)

Thanks Andy,

I couldn't see the stand. The "extras" make perfect sense.

Z.


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## raleighnut (20 Dec 2019)

Heltor Chasca said:


> But the money saved replacing wheels every couple of years on rim brake bikes outweighs the extra cost for a disc brake bike. For that and many other reasons, discs are for me.


I've never worn a rim out, don't get me wrong I've trashed a few wheels but generally through breaking spokes or 'dinging' the rim too badly to be fixed. Maybe it's my riding technique.


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## YellowV2 (20 Dec 2019)

For me rim brakes are fine on a road bike, they provide enough power to lock the wheels, the modulation is good therefore I don’t need more. That applies to all my set ups Veloce/Chorus/Athena on three different bikes. I don’t understand how disc are better? Possibly in the wet or maybe for a dedicated commuter bike but even there personally I find rim brakes perfectly ok. 
Yes some may point to rim wear and maybe with some justification but personally I think it’s nice to have new wheels from time to time. It’s more a case of the industry looking for something new to convince buyers it’s necessary and therefore selling more bikes.


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## screenman (20 Dec 2019)

YellowV2 said:


> For me rim brakes are fine on a road bike, they provide enough power to lock the wheels, the modulation is good therefore I don’t need more. That applies to all my set ups Veloce/Chorus/Athena on three different bikes. I don’t understand how disc are better? Possibly in the wet or maybe for a dedicated commuter bike but even there personally I find rim brakes perfectly ok.
> Yes some may point to rim wear and maybe with some justification but personally I think it’s nice to have new wheels from time to time. It’s more a case of the industry looking for something new to convince buyers it’s necessary and therefore selling more bikes.



I see it as the industry giving us choice, my choice would be discs. I can certainly feel the difference in braking performance between my disc and rimmed braked bikes. None of my bikes run low end equipment, so I am comparing like for like in terms of quality.


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## YellowV2 (20 Dec 2019)

Except that they aren’t giving a choice are they! There are very few road bikes from the major manufacturers offering rim brakes any longer.
I am not saying you cannot tell a difference but is it necessarily any better? 
More power if it’s not useable isn’t any better in my opinion. I cannot stop any more quickly or safely with discs than rim brakes, as ultimately I only have the same contact area with the road.


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## Heltor Chasca (20 Dec 2019)

YellowV2 said:


> ...I cannot stop any more quickly or safely with discs than rim brakes, as ultimately I only have the same contact area with the road.



What even in the wet and muck?


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## si_c (20 Dec 2019)

YellowV2 said:


> For me rim brakes are fine on a road bike, they provide enough power to lock the wheels, the modulation is good therefore I don’t need more. That applies to all my set ups Veloce/Chorus/Athena on three different bikes. I don’t understand how disc are better? Possibly in the wet or maybe for a dedicated commuter bike but even there personally I find rim brakes perfectly ok.
> Yes some may point to rim wear and maybe with some justification but personally I think it’s nice to have new wheels from time to time. It’s more a case of the industry looking for something new to convince buyers it’s necessary and therefore selling more bikes.


It's really not.

Discs are better in a whole host of ways - more powerful braking, better modulation or control, less lever force required, more consistent braking across weather conditions. Rim brakes do work very well and setup properly they are totally suited to the job, but the advantages of disc brakes are cumulative and make for a better overall experience. Which is why people who use disc brakes invariable get a bit evangelical about them.


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## YellowV2 (20 Dec 2019)

Heltor Chasca said:


> What even in the wet and muck?


Yes on roads for the reason stated, that the contact area is the same.


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## Yellow Saddle (20 Dec 2019)

YellowV2 said:


> Except that they aren’t giving a choice are they! There are very few road bikes from the major manufacturers offering rim brakes any longer.
> I am not saying you cannot tell a difference but is it necessarily any better?
> More power if it’s not useable isn’t any better in my opinion. I cannot stop any more quickly or safely with discs than rim brakes, as ultimately I only have the same contact area with the road.


There's plenty of choice to be had and will be for a long time.

Hydraulic disc brakes have several advantages over their rim cousins.

1) Wet weather performance. If you dispute this, you need to get out and ride in the rain. The difference is huge and may I say, big enough to in some cases, to decide between life or death.
2) Wet weather durability. If you regularly ride in the wet, you will have to keep on fitting new rims. Not often, maybe every two years, but often enough to experience downtime, cost and, the problem of finding the exact same rim. The latter not for vanity, but for not having to replace spokes too.
3) Cleanliness. When braking in the wet with rim brakes, enough black mess comes off the rims to soil your clothes and certainly, make the bike look horrible.
4) Reliability. Cable brakes require frequent cable changes for optimum operation and safety. Between cable changes, the deterioration in feel is noticeable.
5) Feel. Good hydraulic brakes work and feel great. Smooth, confidence-inspiring and adjustable to your taste.
6) Set-and-forget. Rim brakes require cable adjustments as the pads wear and you have to watch the pad on that short arm of the dual-pivot variety. That one wears unevenly.
7) Disc brakes are the best option for deep-section carbon wheels. Carbon rims, whilst useful for certain situations are extremely poor at rim braking. Not just from performance, but also from a durability point of view. Disc brakes can make them useful and safe.
8) Disc brakes offer unlimited tyre clearance and without sacrificing performance.

Disc brakes aren't perfect.
1) Cable discs combine the worst of both worlds.
2) Discs make wheels difficult to clean. Only the fastidious need to worry about this.
3) Noise
4) Misunderstanding from professionals and amateurs regarding compatibility of resin and metal discs and pads and the consequences thereof.
5) Idiots who always suggest a bleed for every single possible problem on a disc. I think these people bleed their cable discs too.
6)Endless discussions from retro-grouches who lament the demise of the inferior.


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## Yellow Saddle (20 Dec 2019)

YellowV2 said:


> Except that they aren’t giving a choice are they! There are very few road bikes from the major manufacturers offering rim brakes any longer.
> I am not saying you cannot tell a difference but is it necessarily any better?
> More power if it’s not useable isn’t any better in my opinion. I cannot stop any more quickly or safely with discs than rim brakes, as ultimately I only have the same contact area with the road.


Brakes don't produce power, only force.
However, more force is not what they're about. It is about more usable force in a better modulated way. 
Contact area has nothing to do with brake performance. 

You can't use fallacies of physics to build an argument against disc brakes.


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## YellowV2 (20 Dec 2019)

si_c said:


> It's really not.
> 
> Discs are better in a whole host of ways - more powerful braking, better modulation or control, less lever force required, more consistent braking across weather conditions. Rim brakes do work very well and setup properly they are totally suited to the job, but the advantages of disc brakes are cumulative and make for a better overall experience. Which is why people who use disc brakes invariable get a bit evangelical about them.


Obviously we are never going to agree! As I’ve said more power is irrelevant as the limiting factor is the tyre contact area with the road surface. With regards to modulation I don’t agree and also with decent rim brakes set up properly lever force is not a problem but as I said we are obviously not going to agree 😔


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## YellowV2 (20 Dec 2019)

Yellow Saddle said:


> Brakes don't produce power, only force.
> However, more force is not what they're about. It is about more usable force in a better modulated way.
> Contact area has nothing to do with brake performance.
> 
> You can't use fallacies of physics to build an argument against disc brakes.


It may not have any bearing on braking performance but it is the limiting factor in stopping ability and the need for extra force delivered by discs.
I think you fully understand what is commonly referred to as braking power even if it isn’t the correct terminology from an engineering/ physics perspective. 
I would disagree and invite you prove your point about the choice of new rim brake models being offered by the major manufacturers. Most of their road models especially those aimed at the so called sportive market are not now being offered with rim brakes.
I don’t disagree with the other points you make, whether that makes discs any more suitable for road bikes is a matter of opinion and my opinion is no they aren’t.


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## si_c (20 Dec 2019)

YellowV2 said:


> Obviously we are never going to agree! As I’ve said more power is irrelevant as the limiting factor is the tyre contact area with the road surface. With regards to modulation I don’t agree and also with decent rim brakes set up properly lever force is not a problem but as I said we are obviously not going to agree 😔



Clearly not, but that doesn't mean you are right. I've ridden tens of thousands of miles on disc braked bikes and they are far and away a superior solution to rim brakes. I've got rim braked bikes too and they are lighter and easier to maintain than the discs but they are not better.

You keep bringing up that braking is limited by the contact patch on the tyre and completely ignoring that this is largely irrelevant when it comes to braking distance and control as if that truly was the limit then applying your brakes as hard as you could would mean that you just skidded.

I can stop in almost exactly the same distance on discs in the pissing wet as I can in the dry. This is just not possible with rim brakes. The lever force required for hydraulics is also much much less than for rim brakes for the same amount of braking force, again this is not debatable it's simple physics.

The fact that you keep repeating the same points over and over just means that you have no experience using disc brakes - everyone who has used them agrees they are better for the same reasons.


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## Threevok (20 Dec 2019)

Yellow Saddle said:


> 5) Idiots who always suggest a bleed for every single possible problem on a disc. I think these people bleed their cable discs too.


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## Yellow Saddle (20 Dec 2019)

YellowV2 said:


> It may not have any bearing on braking performance but it is the limiting factor in stopping ability and the need for extra force delivered by discs.


This proves that you don't understand the subject at all. Calling it opinion doesn't get you off the hook.
One really shouldn't comment authoritatively on topics you don't understand. That's the primary reason why I don't offer advice on ricocheting violin techniques.


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## YellowV2 (20 Dec 2019)

I’m sorry but I don’t believe I am looking to get ‘’off the hook’’, I am merely giving my opinion, which if I am not mistaken that is what a forum is for? If that’s not the case then I sincerely apologise!
I’m very sorry do disagree again I absolutely do understand the subject but as you don’t like people having a different opinion to yours I shall offer no further views or input to the post and bow to your obviously superior knowledge.
I shall however continue to prefer rims brakes😉


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## Heltor Chasca (20 Dec 2019)

YellowV2 said:


> ...I shall however continue to prefer rims brakes😉



Until you own and ride a bike with disc brakes😉


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## Dogtrousers (20 Dec 2019)

I think I'm going to get myself a carbon bike with tubeless tyres, disc brakes, daytime running lights, tyres with "grippy tread", DI2 ... and a Wahoo. Just to see how many arguments I can get into.

Edit. Make that a carbon _gravel _bike.


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## si_c (20 Dec 2019)

Dogtrousers said:


> I think I'm going to get myself a carbon bike with tubeless tyres, disc brakes, daytime running lights, tyres with "grippy tread", DI2 ... and a Wahoo. Just to see how many arguments I can get into.
> 
> Edit. Make that a carbon _gravel _bike.


Eugh. You mean a carbon all-road bike. Gravel is so 2019.


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## Ming the Merciless (20 Dec 2019)

Dogtrousers said:


> I think I'm going to get myself a carbon bike with tubeless tyres, disc brakes, daytime running lights, tyres with "grippy tread", DI2 ... and a Wahoo. Just to see how many arguments I can get into.
> 
> Edit. Make that a carbon _gravel _bike.



Don't forget it must have only 4 spokes per wheel to save weight, and make it more aero


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## Racing roadkill (20 Dec 2019)

A fool and their money are easily parted. Disc brakes on road bikes are about as sensible an idea as trying to baptise a cat. Clubbies, chodies and bike tarts love them, manufacturers know it, kerrrrrching.


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## Yellow Saddle (20 Dec 2019)

YellowV2 said:


> I’m sorry but I don’t believe I am looking to get ‘’off the hook’’, I am merely giving my opinion, which if I am not mistaken that is what a forum is for? If that’s not the case then I sincerely apologise!
> I’m very sorry do disagree again I absolutely do understand the subject but as you don’t like people having a different opinion to yours I shall offer no further views or input to the post and bow to your obviously superior knowledge.
> I shall however continue to prefer rims brakes😉



A technical explanation isn't about opinion, it is about facts, and in this case, physics. There's no room for opinion there but plenty on the political forum though. 

Sarcasm and self-flagellation will do you no good either. By all means, please contribute but don't feel miffed if science trumps opinion.


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## screenman (20 Dec 2019)

Racing roadkill said:


> A fool and their money are easily parted. Disc brakes on road bikes are about as sensible an idea as trying to baptise a cat. Clubbies, chodies and bike tarts love them, manufacturers know it, kerrrrrching.



What is money for if not for spending, people spending creates jobs another very plus point.


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## Ming the Merciless (20 Dec 2019)

Racing roadkill said:


> A fool and their money are easily parted.



Indeed, just look at all the fools still buying rim braked , narrow tyred, bugger all clearance road bikes; in this day and age.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (20 Dec 2019)

Disc brakes are superior... Nobody on the planet has argued for vehicles to return to drum brakes, ever....


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## Ming the Merciless (20 Dec 2019)

The thing about rim brakes that I also hate is the black paste they coat the rims with. My neice got a puncture when I took her on her first 200km Audax. I sorted it for her, but my face was black as anything, afterwards, and it wasn't from oil.

You also get uneven rim and brake block wear, and once that happens rim braking is never as smooth or controlled as when the rim and blocks are new.


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## si_c (20 Dec 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> The thing about rim brakes that I also hate is the black paste they coat the rims with. My neice got a puncture when I took her on her first 200km Audax. I sorted it for her, but my face was black as anything, afterwards, and it wasn't from oil.
> 
> You also get uneven rim and brake block wear, and once that happens rim braking is never as smooth or controlled as when the rim and blocks are new.


Basically in anything but a dry, sunny summer's day they're fscking awful


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## Andy in Germany (20 Dec 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> The thing about rim brakes that I also hate is the black paste they coat the rims with. My neice got a puncture when I took her on her first 200km Audax. I sorted it for her, *but my face was black as anything, afterwards*, and it wasn't from oil.
> 
> You also get uneven rim and brake block wear, and once that happens rim braking is never as smooth or controlled as when the rim and blocks are new.



Pehaps not using your teeth would help?


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## Racing roadkill (20 Dec 2019)

si_c said:


> Basically in anything but a dry, sunny summer's day they're fscking awful


Yeah, however did anyone cope before disc brakes


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## YellowV2 (20 Dec 2019)

Yellow Saddle said:


> A technical explanation isn't about opinion, it is about facts, and in this case, physics. There's no room for opinion there but plenty on the political forum though.
> 
> Sarcasm and self-flagellation will do you no good either. By all means, please contribute but don't feel miffed if science trumps opinion.


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## YellowV2 (20 Dec 2019)

Heltor Chasca said:


> Until you own and ride a bike with disc brakes😉


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## Andy in Germany (20 Dec 2019)

I'm pretty indifferent to the argument, mainly because I'm far too slow for it to make much difference what brakes I use. I use V-Brakes because my bikes are ancient, and because I like having a dead simple system if I'm on the road. Elder Son uses discs on his full suspension bike and thinks I'm an old Luddite.

I would however point out this image of Mark Beaumont on his record breaking circumnavigation of the world by bike. If V-Brakes are good enough for a ride around the world in 79 days, they're good enough for me...

Elder Son is shaking his head in despair.

I will now go and get my flint knife and slingshot and hunt dinner...


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## Lucabike (20 Dec 2019)

YellowV2 said:


> For me rim brakes are fine on a road bike, they provide enough power to lock the wheels, the modulation is good therefore I don’t need more. That applies to all my set ups Veloce/Chorus/Athena on three different bikes. I don’t understand how disc are better? Possibly in the wet or maybe for a dedicated commuter bike but even there personally I find rim brakes perfectly ok.
> Yes some may point to rim wear and maybe with some justification but personally I think it’s nice to have new wheels from time to time. It’s more a case of the industry looking for something new to convince buyers it’s necessary and therefore selling more bikes.


exactly my man.


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## Ming the Merciless (20 Dec 2019)

Andy in Germany said:


> I would however point out this image of Mark Beaumont on his record breaking circumnavigation of the world by bike. If V-Brakes are good enough for a ride around the world in 79 days, they're good enough for me...



When he did that discs were not an option on that bike for Mark. So it's not a case of him deciding they were good enough for him. They were the only choice, given he wanted a Koga bike.


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## davidphilips (20 Dec 2019)

My view is that full hydraulic disc brakes work better than the best rim brakes, only own one bike with discs and yes its great but good rim brakes work as well as i have ever needed (hope i am never proved wrong when cycling).
My own view is if i was going to buy a new bike and the hydraulic disc version was same or not much more expensive then thats the bike i would buy.
Cable discs with hydraulic calipers (only tried a few but never owned one) seem to work about the same as a good rim brakes and are ok and cable only disc brakes are perhaps not the best option my son had a cheap Halfords mtb with cable discs and it was not great to say the least, own 9 bikes with rim brakes and have no intention of changing them.


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## Racing roadkill (20 Dec 2019)

People seem to forget that traction is traction. A disc brake may well be able to bring the wheels rotation to a stop more effectively than a rim brake in the wet. But the reduced traction is the same regardless of brake type. When the wheel stops rotating, it’s not bringing anything to the party, regarding braking effect. Hence why it’s not uncommon to hear of people having ‘offs’ at this time of the year, and just not understanding why their “far superior” disc brakes, didn’t help, and in fact they caused the off ( well strictly speaking the under rotation caused by a far more effective wheel brake, coupled to the reduced traction, plus the poor control from the chodie riding it did ).


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## vickster (20 Dec 2019)

What’s a chodie??


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## Dogtrousers (20 Dec 2019)

vickster said:


> What’s a chodie??


Child Star of Chaxi Driver


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## Ming the Merciless (20 Dec 2019)

Rim brakes are so shoot in poor weather that riders end up going ever faster and due to their poor mechanical efficiency end up,with a death grip and pulling the levers as hard as possible. Result locked wheels at speed and crashing. With the much better performance of disc brakes you don't end up with a death grip locking the wheels just as you come to bend and try turning at the same time.


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## boydj (20 Dec 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> When he did that discs were not an option on that bike for Mark. So it's not a case of him deciding they were good enough for him. They were the only choice, given he wanted a Koga bike.



I think the main point is that Mark needed to avoid mechanical complexity when cycling in remote areas, so that spares were easily obtainable, which ruled out hydraulic and even cable discs.


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## Ming the Merciless (20 Dec 2019)

boydj said:


> I think the main point is that Mark needed to avoid mechanical complexity when cycling in remote areas, so that spares were easily obtainable, which ruled out hydraulic and even cable discs.



The bike ruled them out, it wasn't an option. That the record has since been smashed on disc braked bikes tells the story it needs.


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## Racing roadkill (20 Dec 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> Rim brakes are so shoot in poor weather that riders end up going ever faster and due to their poor mechanical efficiency end up,with a death grip and pulling the levers as hard as possible. Result locked wheels at speed and crashing. With the much better performance of disc brakes you don't end up with a death grip locking the wheels just as you come to bend and try turning at the same time.


Only if the rider is clueless. Factor in the ‘drying’ bit of the braking phase on a rim brake, and all is good. It’s far easier to get a rim brake to stop in the wet, without crashing, than a disc brake ( roadie only here ) if you know your stuff. Off road / MTB is totally different, and why disc brakes should only be seen on such bikes. Disc brakes belong on MTBs not on road bikes, largely because of the sort of riders involved.


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## screenman (20 Dec 2019)

Racing roadkill said:


> Only if the rider is clueless. Factor in the ‘drying’ bit of the braking phase on a rim brake, and all is good. It’s far easier to get a rim brake to stop in the wet, without crashing, than a disc brake ( roadie only here ) if you know your stuff. Off road / MTB is totally different, and why disc brakes should only be seen on such bikes. Disc brakes belong on MTBs not on road bikes, largely because of the sort of riders involved.



Sort of rider? I have 3x MTB and 4 road bikes, where do I fit in, just so I know.


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## Ming the Merciless (20 Dec 2019)

Racing roadkill said:


> Only if the rider is clueless. Factor in the ‘drying’ bit of the braking phase on a rim brake, and all is good. It’s far easier to get a rim brake to stop in the wet, without crashing, than a disc brake ( roadie only here ) if you know your stuff. Off road / MTB is totally different, and why disc brakes should only be seen on such bikes. Disc brakes belong on MTBs not on road bikes, largely because of the sort of riders involved.



Nonsense, disc brakes have much better feel and sensitivity lacking in rim brakes. You don't need to apply the same levels of force to a disc brake (hydraulic) lever as you do a rim brake lever to achieve the same amount of retardation. Of course if you have someone used to the poor performance of rim brakes they can apply their death grip to disk brakes as well which isn't a good iidea. But that is just a rider being clueless .


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## Racing roadkill (20 Dec 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> Nonsense, disc brakes have much better feel and sensitivity lacking in rim brakes. You don't need to apply the same levels of force to a disc brake (hydraulic) lever as you do a rim brake lever to achieve the same amount of retardation. Of course if you have someone used to the poor performance of rim brakes they can apply their death grip to disk brakes as well which isn't a good iidea. But that is just a rider being clueless .


You are the problem.


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## Racing roadkill (20 Dec 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> Nonsense, disc brakes have much better feel and sensitivity lacking in rim brakes. You don't need to apply the same levels of force to a disc brake (hydraulic) lever as you do a rim brake lever to achieve the same amount of retardation. Of course if you have someone used to the poor performance of rim brakes they can apply their death grip to disk brakes as well which isn't a good iidea. But that is just a rider being clueless .


You are the problem.


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## Ming the Merciless (20 Dec 2019)

Racing roadkill said:


> You are the problem.



Eh, that's your argument against disk brakes? How odd.


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## Racing roadkill (20 Dec 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> Eh, that's your argument against disk brakes? How odd.


The brakes aren’t the issue.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (20 Dec 2019)

Here we go again


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## Yellow Saddle (20 Dec 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> Eh, that's your argument against disk brakes? How odd.


Yup, like the man said, you are the problem.


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## Yellow Saddle (20 Dec 2019)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Here we go again


Judging by the text in your avatar window, you too look like you could be a problem.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (20 Dec 2019)

Yellow Saddle said:


> Judging by the text in your avatar window, you too look like you could be a problem.


Not possible good sir,I was recently killed by a mudguard


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## Stompier (20 Dec 2019)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Not possible good sir,I was recently killed by a mudguard



Good job it didn't have disc brakes as well. Oh, wait..


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## Yellow Saddle (20 Dec 2019)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Not possible good sir,I was recently killed by a mudguard



Sorry to hear that you're dead. But...one less problem now.


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## Mike Ayling (21 Dec 2019)

Has anyone mentioned that excessive use of rim brakes on long descents may cause tyres to explode whereas excessive disc braking under the same circumstances causes the brake fluid to boil resulting in a lack of braking but at least your tyres remain in place!


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## screenman (21 Dec 2019)

Mike Ayling said:


> Has anyone mentioned that excessive use of rim brakes on long descents may cause tyres to explode whereas excessive disc braking under the same circumstances causes the brake fluid to boil resulting in a lack of braking but at least your tyres remain in place!



Is that why every long hill in the world has a pile of vehicles smashed up at the bottom of it.


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## Randombiker9 (21 Dec 2019)

Probably because disc brakes are better and more expensive 
Pa sorry rim brake users. I’ve alwyws had disc brakes on my bike. Lol


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (21 Dec 2019)

DOT 5.1 has a dry boiling point of 270deg and a wet boiling point(3.7% of its volume being water) of 190deg.

As above we're not seeing cars and motorbikes piled up everywhere, road legal or race - due to boiling fluids


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## Ming the Merciless (21 Dec 2019)

screenman said:


> Is that why every long hill in the world has a pile of vehicles smashed up at the bottom of it.



I thought that was down to lethal mudguards?


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## Heltor Chasca (21 Dec 2019)

Mike Ayling said:


> Has anyone mentioned that excessive use of rim brakes on long descents may cause tyres to explode whereas excessive disc braking under the same circumstances causes the brake fluid to boil resulting in a lack of braking but at least your tyres remain in place!



Rather than coasting at your manageable speed with the brakes on all the time, I scrub off just a bit more speed than I would normally descend; release; build up speed; scrub; release; repeat.

I am led to believe this will stop the rotors overheating. How scientific this is I can’t verify, but it is a technique that is safe and works for me. On the various group rides I do, I tend to descend quicker than most. Whether that’s a hangover from my MTB riding or because I’m irresponsible, I haven’t decided.

There are some alarming videos on YouTube of overheated rotors.


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## Ming the Merciless (21 Dec 2019)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Not possible good sir,I was recently killed by a mudguard



If it was a SKS one, they have a five year guarantee they won't kill you. It might be possible to revive you.


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## Heltor Chasca (21 Dec 2019)

Also mentions traction.


View: https://youtu.be/tqMuxfHd9Vg


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (21 Dec 2019)

90deg at it's hottest, 200deg short of boiling point


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## Heltor Chasca (21 Dec 2019)

View: https://youtu.be/li61wVqpyAM


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## Heltor Chasca (21 Dec 2019)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> 90deg at it's hottest, 200deg short of boiling point



10 degrees. It seems they are measuring in Celsius.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (21 Dec 2019)

Heltor Chasca said:


> 10 degrees. It seems they are measuring in Celsius.


Definitely not 10 degrees, I am referring to Celsius


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## Dogtrousers (21 Dec 2019)

Heltor Chasca said:


> 10 degrees. It seems they are measuring in Celsius.


Don't try to confuse things with weird units. 

Everything is in Celsius. So 90c is 200c (ish) below the BP of brake fluid which is 200 and something. See post above.

If the rotors were at 90F they would barely be above room temp (below it in some places) If they were at 90K they would be very cold indeed and encrusted with ice from atmospheric moisture.


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## Heltor Chasca (21 Dec 2019)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Definitely not 10 degrees



Should have said 10 degrees lower than boiling point. Which is 100 degrees Celsius in 2019. 

What is this Fahrenheit thing you speak of @Dogtrousers ?


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (21 Dec 2019)

Heltor Chasca said:


> Should have said 10 degrees lower than boiling point. Which is 100 degrees Celsius in 2019.
> 
> What is this Fahrenheit thing you speak of @Dogtrousers ?


Yeah, of water! Not a glycol based fluid, nor a glycol based fluid that's 3.7% water content


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## Heltor Chasca (21 Dec 2019)

All on the same page yet? 😜


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## Stompier (21 Dec 2019)

Heltor Chasca said:


> All on the same page yet? 😜


We are the problem.


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## Ming the Merciless (21 Dec 2019)

Dogtrousers said:


> If they were at 90K they would be very cold indeed and encrusted with ice from atmospheric moisture.



You have heard of the Shimano ice tech rotors?


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (21 Dec 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> You have heard of the Shimano ice tech rotors?


Made from actual ice so guaranteed to fail, maybe before your mudguard does


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## Heltor Chasca (21 Dec 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> You have heard of the Shimano ice tech rotors?



Video up thread. They use ice dry ice in the M2 versions.


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## Ming the Merciless (21 Dec 2019)

Heltor Chasca said:


> Video up thread. They use ice dry ice in the M2 versions.



CO2? No wonder the climate is in crisis. It's all these ice tech rotors releasing CO2 as the disc brake Borg collective assimilate rim brake Luddites.


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## davidphilips (21 Dec 2019)

Surprised no one has said they like disc brakes but dont like discs on there or some one elses bike?


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## Heltor Chasca (21 Dec 2019)

davidphilips said:


> Surprised no one has said they like disc brakes but dont like discs on there or some one elses bike?



Your sherry is bamboozling me. Chin chin.


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## Stompier (21 Dec 2019)

davidphilips said:


> Surprised no one has said they like disc brakes but dont like discs on there or some one elses bike?



It's surely only a matter of time.


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## davidphilips (21 Dec 2019)

Stompier said:


> It's surely only a matter of time.


Lol, As long as no one gets cut up about it?


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## Ming the Merciless (21 Dec 2019)

davidphilips said:


> Surprised no one has said they like disc brakes but dont like discs on there or some one elses bike?



No but they might look at a rim braked bike and say it's fugly.


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## Mike Ayling (21 Dec 2019)

screenman said:


> Is that why every long hill in the world has a pile of vehicles smashed up at the bottom of it?


I have added a question mark to your post.

Motor vehicle manufacturers don't mind how heavy they have to make their disc brakes as long as they do the job.
Bicycle manufacturers try to make their discs as light as possible (but are still heavier than rim brakes) which can result in overheating problems and lack of braking at times.


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## Lucabike (21 Dec 2019)

I just got a disc break, and wow, its weird. It breaks much better, and quicker, but its heavy! and its an extra hundred quid. IDK what to think. They are better, but not.


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## screenman (21 Dec 2019)

Mike Ayling said:


> I have added a question mark to your post.
> 
> Motor vehicle manufacturers don't mind how heavy they have to make their disc brakes as long as they do the job.
> Bicycle manufacturers try to make their discs as light as possible (but are still heavier than rim brakes) which can result in overheating problems and lack of braking at times.



Motor manufacturers certainly care about weight.


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## Mike Ayling (21 Dec 2019)

And now a word or 99 from Andy Blance, the bike design guru at Thorn touring bikes:

V” BRAKES Vs DISC BRAKES 
For every day use and for touring, we prefer the simplicity, ruggedness and ease of maintenance of V brakes. We even prefer the “feel” of top quality V brakes. We have rims available, with a tungsten carbide braking surface, which provides fantastic braking combined with exceptional longevity. People say that it’s about time that bikes caught up with cars and motorcycles , which all now use disc brakes. There’s no doubting the improvements to braking performance that disc brakes have made to all forms of motorised transport. However these vehicles have moved from drum brakes to disc brakes. Bicycles have been using disc brakes for more than 100 years. Bike rims are disc rotors -but instead of having large 550+mm aluminium discs, bikes are now being offered with 160mm stainless steel discs. There’s no doubt that hydraulic disc brakes are preferable to V brakes in the deep, muddy conditions often found in UK mountainbiking. They are, however, more easily damaged (especially in transit) and a bent rotor is much more difficult to straighten than an “out of true” wheel. Indeed, if the rotor is warped enough, the wheel won’t even turn! Don’t compare the 8 to 10mm thick, cast rotors, found on modern cars and motorcycles, with the 2mm thick, stainless steel plate, rotors found on bicycles. Our bikes use raked fork blades, these are exceptionally comfortable, they will withstand the forces of cycling (and have done so for generations) but raked forks will not withstand the forces generated by a disc brake, which are very different to the forces generated by V brakes, even at the same rate of retardation. In recent tests on a 1Km long 25% gradient, I determined to my satisfaction that a well set up V brake will stop a loaded tandem from speed more positively than a 203mm disc brake. This is not the whole story though -clearly there is rim wear Vs rotor wear to consider. We’ve been advocating using 3 brakes on a tandem for 30 years and we’ve been selling tandems with 2 V brakes and a supplementary rear disc for over a decade. I have bowed to pressure and introduced the option of a tandem disc fork. This is very heavy duty and 135mm wide, so that there’s no dish in the front wheel, it will stand up to the forces involved but it’s significantly less comfortable than our twin-plate crown V brake fork .So you can have a Thorn tandem with 2 disc brakes but I recommend that you don’t have it! It may seem odd to take the trouble to make the best possible disc fork and then try to persuade customers not to buy it -but that’s us! I made the disc fork for 2 reasons, firstly, I’m sure that some people thought that the advice was given because we couldn’t supply a disc fork -well we can and the advice is still the same!The second reason is that some customers have said that they’d like a 650B tandem and others want to run 700c. Well they could now if they wish but only by having 2 disc brakes. Perhaps it may make sense to some customers to have one of our sturdy frames and bomb-proof Rohloff hub built as a sporty, high performance 700c machine?If you must have 650B wheels, nobody makes a suitably strong 650B rim brake rim, so you must have 2 disc brakes.


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## rualexander (21 Dec 2019)

Andy in Germany said:


> I would however point out this image of Mark Beaumont on his record breaking circumnavigation of the world by bike. If V-Brakes are good enough for a ride around the world in 79 days, they're good enough for me...



That photo is from his original round the world record trip of 195 days which was unsupported.
His 79 days supported record was on a much lighter bike with disc brakes:


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## Andy in Germany (22 Dec 2019)

rualexander said:


> That photo is from his original round the world record trip of 195 days which was unsupported.
> His 79 days supported record was on a much lighter bike with disc brakes:
> 
> View attachment 497341



Ah, that makes sense. I wondered why that bike kept coming up in the search results.


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## Will Spin (4 Jan 2020)

Theoretically a frame built for rim brakes should cost less than a frame built for disc brakes on a like for like basis. This is because the front forks and the rear seat stay/chain stay need to be more robust to withstand the torque from the disc brake caliper. Having said that I suspect most manufacturers offering both options probably standardise the frame so there's no discernible difference, unless of course you have a custom made frame.


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## vickster (4 Jan 2020)

Lucabike said:


> I just got a disc break, and wow, its weird. It breaks much better, and quicker, but its heavy! and its an extra hundred quid. IDK what to think. They are better, but not.


I like brakes on my bikes, not breaks


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## PaulSB (5 Jan 2020)

YukonBoy said:


> Rim brakes are so shoot in poor weather that riders end up going ever faster and due to their poor mechanical efficiency end up,with a death grip and pulling the levers as hard as possible. Result locked wheels at speed and crashing. With the much better performance of disc brakes you don't end up with a death grip locking the wheels just as you come to bend and try turning at the same time.


Surely the issue here with rim brakes is the rider's ability. I feel disc brakes are superior to rims, especially in winter, but with either system there should never be a need for a "death grip" under normal circumstances. I agree a "death grip" can occur for anyone but this, in my view, would only be in a dire emergency. Outside of such a situation I would expect to control my speed under any circumstances. If my rim braked winter bike won't stop I'm riding too fast.



Racing roadkill said:


> Only if the rider is clueless. Factor in the ‘drying’ bit of the braking phase on a rim brake, and all is good. It’s far easier to get a rim brake to stop in the wet, without crashing, than a disc brake ( roadie only here ) if you know your stuff. Off road / MTB is totally different, and why disc brakes should only be seen on such bikes. Disc brakes belong on MTBs not on road bikes, largely because of the sort of riders involved.



I don't agree stopping with a rim brake is easier in the wet. At best, if riding at appropriate speeds, the two systems are equal. As a roadie I'm not sure why you feel roadies don't have the necessary skill to use disc brakes in a controlled manner in the wet. I'd argue the main reasons for crashing are excessive speed for the conditions, ice, oil or outright stupidity.**

** Which I was guilty of last week when I assumed the guy on my right knew we would follow the road through a 90 degree right bend rather than go straight on to the small road which went off the crown of the bend!!! I turned in to him and paid the price!!


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## Blue Hills (5 Jan 2020)

Heltor Chasca said:


> But the money saved replacing wheels every couple of years on rim brake bikes outweighs the extra cost for a disc brake bike. For that and many other reasons, discs are for me.


Many decent rims only cost about £20 though.
I intend to set about learning how to re-rimming my wheels soon.
Wheels quite often go for other reasons rather than the breaking surface wearing out anyway - a Mavic of mine recently went from a crack round a spoke hole - maybe caused by a bad London road. It's quite an old wheel - now on its second bike - braking surface fine as I am careful to keep pads and rims clean/ish. Disc brake wheels don't last forever.
So what do disc brake fans do when a wheel goes - bin it along with possibly a very good hub?
(that wheel that went - the hub came from an earlier Mavic wheel)


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## PaulSB (5 Jan 2020)

Blue Hills said:


> Many decent rims only cost about £20 though.
> I intend to set about learning how to re-rimming my wheels soon.
> Wheels quite often go for other reasons rather than the breaking surface wearing out anyway - a Mavic of mine recently went from a crack round a spoke hole - maybe caused by a bad London road. It's quite an old wheel - now on its second bike - braking surface fine as I am careful to keep pads and rims clean/ish. Disc brake wheels don't last forever.
> So what do disc brake fans do when a wheel goes - bin it along with possibly a very good hub?
> (that wheel that went - the hub came from an earlier Mavic wheel)



I had a five year old Mavic fail in exactly the same way. I don't know if I'd hit anything particularly hard prior to this.

I'm told Mavics are known for this.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (5 Jan 2020)

Blue Hills said:


> Many decent rims only cost about £20 though.
> I intend to set about learning how to re-rimming my wheels soon.
> Wheels quite often go for other reasons rather than the breaking surface wearing out anyway - a Mavic of mine recently went from a crack round a spoke hole - maybe caused by a bad London road. It's quite an old wheel - now on its second bike - braking surface fine as I am careful to keep pads and rims clean/ish. Disc brake wheels don't last forever.
> So what do disc brake fans do when a wheel goes - bin it along with possibly a very good hub?
> (that wheel that went - the hub came from an earlier Mavic wheel)


Re-rim or respoke, the same as any other wheel. If neither of those are financially viable, replace.


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## twentysix by twentyfive (5 Jan 2020)

Pale Rider said:


> I think one of the Spa Cycles disk brake bikes has mounting points for calliper brakes.
> 
> Can't think why you would want to.


Mudguards?


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## Racing roadkill (5 Jan 2020)

PaulSB said:


> Surely the issue here with rim brakes is the rider's ability. I feel disc brakes are superior to rims, especially in winter, but with either system there should never be a need for a "death grip" under normal circumstances. I agree a "death grip" can occur for anyone but this, in my view, would only be in a dire emergency. Outside of such a situation I would expect to control my speed under any circumstances. If my rim braked winter bike won't stop I'm riding too fast.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The biggest issue I’ve encountered, is some riders inability to understand that the wheels may well stop rotating better in poor conditions, with disc brakes, but there’s no miraculous improvement in traction. It came to the point where ( on any group rides I was organising) I had to start insisting that anyone with a disc braked road bike, stayed behind the rim braked bikes, particularly on descents. This was following an incident when one of the assistant ride leaders ended up with fractured ribs, when a disc braker stopped in front of him without so much as a word, for no particularly good reason, causing a pile up. That caused paperwork, that’s not good. I also had a disc braker hit me from behind, because his levers went to the bars suddenly ( probably air in the system) and it wrote off a brand new R7000 rear mech.


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## Ming the Merciless (5 Jan 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> The biggest issue I’ve encountered, is some riders inability to understand that the wheels may well stop rotating better in poor conditions, with disc brakes, but there’s no miraculous improvement in traction. It came to the point where ( on any group rides I was organising) I had to start insisting that anyone with a disc braked road bike, stayed behind the rim braked bikes, particularly on descents. This was following an incident when one of the assistant ride leaders ended up with fractured ribs, when a disc braker stopped in front of him without so much as a word, for no particularly good reason, causing a pile up. That caused paperwork, that’s not good. I also had a disc braker hit me from behind, because his levers went to the bars suddenly ( probably air in the system) and it wrote off a brand new R7000 rear mech.



So there’s no mysterious improvement in traction but the rim braked rider was unable to stop in the same distance as disc brake rider, so ran into the back of him. Have I got that right?


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## Racing roadkill (5 Jan 2020)

YukonBoy said:


> So there’s no mysterious improvement in traction but the rim braked rider was unable to stop in the same distance as disc brake rider, so ran into the back of him. Have I got that right?


No, the disc braker ended up in a heap, because he failed to understand the point about the difference between stopping the wheels rotating, and stopping the bike, and slid over as his wheels locked and skidded. everyone else on rim brakes then either went left or right, or straight over them.


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## Vantage (5 Jan 2020)

Not really a point for or against disc brakes is it? 
I and I'm sure many others have locked up the wheels on a caliper, cantilever and V braked bike without a huge amount of difficulty. 
The accidents you mentioned are to do with rider error.


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## Ming the Merciless (5 Jan 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> No, the disc braker ended up in a heap, because he failed to understand the point about the difference between stopping the wheels rotating, and stopping the bike, and slid over as his wheels locked and skidded. everyone else on rim brakes then either went left or right, or straight over them.



But what’s that got to do with discs?

The rider would have been the same on rim brakes as well. Why didn’t the rim braked rider, behind, leave enough of a gap to safely brake? Bit like a car driver running into the back of the driver ahead , and blaming on the one in front.


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## 8mph (5 Jan 2020)

Heltor Chasca said:


> But the money saved replacing wheels every couple of years on rim brake bikes outweighs the extra cost for a disc brake bike. For that and many other reasons, discs are for me.


I let these considerations play on my mind far too much, even to the point of wanting to replace my entire touring bike, which has rims that will last for absolutely ages! What else? The diesel car of course.


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## Racing roadkill (5 Jan 2020)

YukonBoy said:


> But what’s that got to do with discs?
> 
> The rider would have been the same on rim brakes as well. Why didn’t the rim braked rider, behind, leave enough of a gap to safely brake? Bit like a car driver running into the back of the driver ahead , and blaming on the one in front.


No, he ( the disc braker ) went down due to the skid, because he didn’t get the difference between stopping the wheels and stopping the bike, on rim brakes, this mental conundrum isn’t there. which bit did you not get?


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (5 Jan 2020)

So nobody has ever crashed or went OTB before disc brakes?


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## Stompier (5 Jan 2020)

Vantage said:


> The accidents you mentioned are to do with rider error.



The guy is a walking disaster, so it's not surprising that his 'organised' rides turn out the same way.


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## Ming the Merciless (5 Jan 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> No, he ( the disc braker ) went down due to the skid, because he didn’t get the difference between stopping the wheels and stopping the bike, on rim brakes, this mental conundrum isn’t there. which bit did you not get?



Well of course the mental conundrum would have been there for the same rider using rim brakes. You have to be stupid, and not get it, to think changing the brake type would change that riders thinking on stopping their bike

p.s. You haven’t explained why rim brake rider didn’t realise they needed to leave sufficient gap to safely brake if the rider in front went down. Sounds like poor training / advice from whomever was leading the ride.


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## Lucabike (6 Jan 2020)

vickster said:


> I like brakes on my bikes, not breaks


I suppose so 🤣


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