# Ideas to making cycling safer in London and towns and cities up and down the land....



## The Jogger (17 Dec 2011)

On hearing of the recent cyclists deaths on roads in and around London, one being a young student named Carey from Kingston University, I was thinking maybe we should come up with some ideas/suggestions to make cycling safer.

I was pondering the danger of roundabouts, many of these are now traffic light controlled. What about if included in the lights a cycle, green light which would give cycles a 5 - 10 sec start over the cars in the same section and also working in sequence with the other entries to the roundabout. That should be easily enough time to get the cyclists over the roundabout before the onslaught of cars.

Is this feasable and any other ideas?


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## Red Light (17 Dec 2011)

Sort out the standard of lorry driving which is responsible for 50% of the cyclist deaths in London - way out of proportion to their numbers on the road.


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## Little yellow Brompton (17 Dec 2011)

The Jogger said:


> On hearing of the recent cyclists deaths on roads in and around London, one being a young student named Carey from Kingston University, I was thinking maybe we should come up with some ideas/suggestions to make cycling safer.
> 
> I was pondering the danger of roundabouts, many of these are now traffic light controlled. What about if included in the lights a cycle, green light which would give cycles a 5 - 10 sec start over the cars in the same section and also working in sequence with the other entries to the roundabout. That should be easily enough time to get the cyclists over the roundabout before the onslaught of cars.
> 
> Is this feasable and any other ideas?


 
How about suspend the licence of any HGV driver involved in killing a cyclist immediately, and revoking it permanently when it's proved that they were guilty of causing the death?


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## The Jogger (17 Dec 2011)

Hmmm, I think some people might have the wrong end of the stick. We all want to see punishments to match the crime ( if that was possible ) but the purpose of this thread is prevention of accidents . Maybe the thread should be moved, I did consider campaigning......or whatever it's called.


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## Little yellow Brompton (18 Dec 2011)

The Jogger said:


> Hmmm, I think some people might have the wrong end of the stick. We all want to see punishments to match the crime ( if that was possible ) but the purpose of this thread is prevention of accidents .
> .


 

The best way of preventing accidents is to start with the realisation that the majority of "accidents" are not accidental but are caused by human error. Once you do that ,you then try to eradicate the error, an effiecient way of reducing errors is to balance the consequences of an action ( that previously was called an "accident") with it's creation.At the moment the risk/benefit of driving is in favour of making the risk ( The same problem as the banks have) to gain the benefit, it's an inbalance and needs to be rebalanced Don't think of the permanent removal of the licence as a punishment but as part of the training to make sure that the reason for the removal never occurs.


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## Little yellow Brompton (18 Dec 2011)

[QUOTE 1647825, member: 3143"]Jogger - you seem like an intelligent fellow, however starting this type of thread in GC is asking for trouble and will receive the type of ignorant responses as above.[/quote]
Feel free to point out which bit of "How about suspend the licence of any HGV driver involved in killing a cyclist immediately, and revoking it permanently when it's proved that they were guilty of causing the death?" you can point to that is "ignorant".

Or maybe your normal technique for dealing with questions that challenge your worldview is to simply start lashing out , with words which might be derogatory, if they were accurate ?


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## Red Light (18 Dec 2011)

[QUOTE 1647825, member: 3143"]Jogger - you seem like an intelligent fellow, however starting this type of thread in GC is asking for trouble and will receive the type of ignorant responses as above.[/quote]

So User3143, what is ignorant about applying the standard techniques of risk management to the problem viz. identifying the major source of risk and then putting in steps to mitigate it. 

Or do you disagree with the facts that lorries cause half the cyclist deaths in London (HGVs one third) which is massively disproportionate to their numbers on the road (<5% and <1% respectively) or that in most cases the driver of the lorry is arrested. Perhaps you think that poor hard done by drivers like Michael Thorn and Dennis Putz were wrongly convicted for killing Emma Foa and Catriona Patel

Or perhaps you disagree with Inspector Aspinall's report to the London Road Safety Forum:

_Turning to the issues of lorries, Inspector Aspinall told the meeting about a day of City of London spot checks on HGVs, carried out on 30 September 2008 as part of the Europe-wide Operation Mermaid, which is intended to step up levels of enforcement of road safety laws in relation to lorries. On this one day, 12 lorries were stopped randomly by City Police. Five of those lorries were involved in the construction work for the 2012 Olympics. All of the twelve lorries were breaking the law in at least one way. The offences range included overweight loads (2 cases), mechanical breaches (5 cases), driver hours breaches (5 cases), mobile phone use while driving (2 cases), driving without insurance (2 cases) and no operator license (1 case)._​With 100% illegality in spot checks, a cyclist killing rate 10-30 times higher than other vehicles on the roads of London and a high driver arrest rate in those deaths it seems anything but ignorant to focus on dealing with lorries and their drivers as the top priority. What do you think and why?


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## Little yellow Brompton (18 Dec 2011)

[QUOTE 1648119, member: 3143"]Dunno Yellow, maybe because the above would be on the presumption of guilt, where as in this country 'Innocent until proven guilty' goes back a long old way.[/quote]
Seems to work for doctors, nurses, teachers, train drivers, police officers, civil servants etc... whilst there is an investigation into their conduct they are suspended , it is claimed that lorry drivers are "professionals" shouldn't they then expect the same sort of procedures to apply to them?


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## GrumpyGregry (18 Dec 2011)

The Jogger said:


> Hmmm, I think some people might have the wrong end of the stick. We all want to see punishments to match the crime ( if that was possible ) but the purpose of this thread is prevention of accidents . Maybe the thread should be moved, I did consider campaigning......or whatever it's called.


Returning to the OP's theme/intent:

ASL's at all traffic light controlled junctions with a 10 second pedestrian "scramble" phase followed by cycle "scamble" phase of 10 seconds or so.
Cameras on all traffic light controlled junctions to enforce offences against ASL's. We do it for bus lanes.
20 mph urban speed limits (coming to a county-town near you Jogger)
Strict liability (or whatever it is more correctly called)
Black box style data recorders in cars linked to the cloud. Yep it is time for Big Brother to start watching.
Segregated cycling infrastructure where motor vehicles and cycling cannot safely mix with the needs of the cyclists prioritised over the needs of the motorist. We run on sweat. They don't.
Removal of whatever % of the UK's existing useless cycling infrastructure as is necessary to avoid a charge of bringing cycling into disrepute.


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## MissTillyFlop (18 Dec 2011)

There was a guy on here a while ago who was interested in exploring the possibilities of DSRC to alert drivers of large vehilces that there was a cyclist in their blind spot.


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## Alien8 (18 Dec 2011)

Removal of pointless cycling features, such as cycle-lanes, with the intention of promoting the intergration of road users and awareness.


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## brokenflipflop (18 Dec 2011)

In my humble opinion, I see cars and lorries hitting cars and lorries and by and large due to being in such vehicles with modern safety devices (airbags, crumple zones etc) most people get out relatively unscathed. Now apply the same logic to a little pushbike darting in and out of the traffic and it stands to reason there is going to be collisions leading to deaths/serious injury. I drive a bloody big white van and there are people out there who can't see me !! The one and only way to reduce these deaths significantly is to completely separate cyclists from motor vehicles. In my opinion, as a WVM and a cyclist, imposing more severe sentences for poor drivers who cause accidents will have absolutely no effect whatsoever - motorists minds are never on the safety of cyclists or in many cases anyone else. People are complacent, selfish and they have deadlines and kids to pick up and there are millions of people like that in vehicles every day. The only answer is everyone get about in a hummer or like I said, bikes and vehicles have to be separated.


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## totallyfixed (18 Dec 2011)

While I agree with your sentiments separating cyclists from motor vehicles it is the thin end of a very thick wedge to my thinking and will only lead to the general belief among motorists that cyclists have no right to be on the road anywhere. I have said this on another thread, the only way forward is to change the law as per most other countries in Europe and give way to cyclists. None of this nonsense of having to stop if you are on a cycle path for every road, drive or track you cross. We need to make the penalties high for any vehicle that hits a cyclist, full stop.


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## totallyfixed (18 Dec 2011)

While I agree with your sentiments separating cyclists from motor vehicles it is the thin end of a very thick wedge to my thinking and will only lead to the general belief among motorists that cyclists have no right to be on the road anywhere. I have said this on another thread, the only way forward is to change the law as per most other countries in Europe and give way to cyclists. None of this nonsense of having to stop if you are on a cycle path for every road, drive or track you cross. We need to make the penalties high for any vehicle that hits a cyclist, full stop.


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## Titan yer tummy (18 Dec 2011)

Perhaps the answer is to come at this from a slightly different direction. 

I suggest that we could halve the size of HGVs allowed on Britain's roads. Move freight to the railways and then have it delivered by van sized vehicles (driven by drivers trained to current HGVS standards) from local distribution depots.

This would obviously put up the price of goods, on the other hand it would create employment and encourage retailers to try and locate local produce rather than ship stuff half way round the the world.

TyT


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## Little yellow Brompton (18 Dec 2011)

Titan yer tummy said:


> Perhaps the answer is to come at this from a slightly different direction.
> 
> I suggest that we could halve the size of HGVs allowed on Britain's roads. Move freight to the railways and then have it delivered by van sized vehicles (driven by drivers trained to current HGVS standards) from local distribution depots.
> 
> ...


 
Dr Beeching I presume?


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## Titan yer tummy (18 Dec 2011)

Little yellow Brompton said:


> Dr Beeching I presume?



Que?

(the site is driving me nuts today!!)


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## Red Light (18 Dec 2011)

[QUOTE 1648128, member: 3143"]How does the above contribute towards ''The standard of lorry driving'' which is what I originally quoted you on? As far as I can see you've a couple of cases where quite rightly the driver has been imprisioned, touched on that in ''most cases, the driver is arrested'' (which is standard practise does not mean the driver is guilty. And posted an article about an operation that is 4 years old.[/quote]

Driving that results in 10-30 times higher death rates than for other driver groups in London, 40% breaching their driving hours, 17% driving on the phone, 17% driving uninsured, 8% driving without an operators license and you can't see what it has to do with driving standards. URA lorry driver in London AICMFP.

As for the rest, plenty of others have been found guilty, I just chose the most egregious cases. And as for the spot checks being 4 years old have you any evidence that anything has changed since to make them invalid?


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## brokenflipflop (18 Dec 2011)

In my humble opinion, I see cars and lorries hitting cars and lorries and by and large due to being in such vehicles with modern safety devices (airbags, crumple zones etc) most people get out relatively unscathed. Now apply the same logic to a little pushbike darting in and out of the traffic and it stands to reason there is going to be collisions leading to deaths/serious injury. I drive a bloody big white van and there are people out there who can't see me !! The one and only way to reduce these deaths significantly is to completely separate cyclists from motor vehicles. In my opinion, as a WVM and a cyclist, imposing more severe sentences for poor drivers who cause accidents will have absolutely no effect whatsoever - motorists minds are never on the safety of cyclists or in many cases anyone else. People are complacent, selfish and they have deadlines and kids to pick up and there are millions of people like that in vehicles every day. The only answer is everyone get about in a hummer or like I said, bikes and vehicles have to be separated.


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## GrumpyGregry (18 Dec 2011)

brokenflipflop said:


> In my humble opinion, I see cars and lorries hitting cars and lorries and by and large due to being in such vehicles with modern safety devices (airbags, crumple zones etc) most people get out relatively unscathed. Now apply the same logic to a little pushbike darting in and out of the traffic and it stands to reason there is going to be collisions leading to deaths/serious injury. I drive a bloody big white van and there are people out there who can't see me !! The one and only way to reduce these deaths significantly is to completely separate cyclists from motor vehicles. In my opinion, as a WVM and a cyclist, imposing more severe sentences for poor drivers who cause accidents will have absolutely no effect whatsoever - motorists minds are never on the safety of cyclists or in many cases anyone else. People are complacent, selfish and they have deadlines and kids to pick up and there are millions of people like that in vehicles every day. The only answer is everyone get about in a hummer or like I said, bikes and vehicles have to be separated.


Get those pesky pedestrians out of the feckin' way too while you are about it.

If there was an unlike button I'd hit it. There are good reasons for segregation. There are bad ones. Guess which is which?


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## Little yellow Brompton (18 Dec 2011)

Titan yer tummy said:


> Que?
> 
> (the site is driving me nuts today!!)


 
The Dr. Beeching, made the presumtion that, when he cut feeder lines and stations, passengers and goods would travel by road to the next station/ line and then transfer to Rail , reversing the transfer at the other end. Goods would have been "handled" 6 times, compared with the twice on whole rail or whole road routes. What happened was that once the passengers/goods were on the road they stayed there. I'm not saying that your solution hasn't merit, but for it to work it needs to be thought of not just in terms of cost/profit ( That was Beeching's error) , or rather it should also externalise the costs and also take into account the social costs.


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## Little yellow Brompton (18 Dec 2011)

Red Light said:


> . URA lorry driver in London AICMFP.
> 
> ?


 I thought that was obvious some time ago?


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## Bicycle (18 Dec 2011)

I cycle and I have children who cycle. I have something invested in the survival of my children, but in truth I quite like things as they are on UK roads. They could be better, but life does tend to kill people one way or another.

I abhor the notion of separating cycle and motorised traffic. I've been over a couple of bonnets and was recently flipped off when an aged driver pulled out and swept my rear wheel away. A bizarre but nonetheless painful collision. I do not write from behind a pain-free veil immunity to traffic.

If I didn't like things as they are, I wouldn't cycle. I do like it. 

If I were to change anything, I might go for more training about allowing for other road users as a part of standard UK driver training and testing. I'd also like to see some cyclists having a little more nous about the road, although most seem pretty good.

Apart from that, not much.


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## brokenflipflop (18 Dec 2011)

GregCollins said:


> Get those pesky pedestrians out of the feckin' way too while you are about it.
> 
> If there was an unlike button I'd hit it. There are good reasons for segregation. There are bad ones. Guess which is which?


I don't know. Enlighten me.


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## brokenflipflop (18 Dec 2011)

When I say segregation I mean totally separate. Not cycle lanes - cycle roads that aren't shared. It wont happen of course but deaths will continue as long as cycles and cars are on the road as sure as eggs are eggs and no amount of training/laws/sentences/education will change that. Most tattooed, cross-eyed, boneheads who learn to drive at 17 drive at the speed limit. As soon as they pass their test they drive their Subaru Impreza's at ridiculous speeds. Factor in people who aren't very good at judging distances (most women), people with poor eyesight, complacent drivers (Lorries, taxi drivers, WVM), foreigners who passed their tests in Nairobi and Delhi and people who simply make the occasional mistake it's a mystery things aren't worse than they already are.


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## Bicycle (18 Dec 2011)

brokenflipflop said:


> When I say segregation I mean totally separate. Not cycle lanes - cycle roads that aren't shared. It wont happen of course but deaths will continue as long as cycles and cars are on the road as sure as eggs are eggs and no amount of training/laws/sentences/education will change that. Most tattooed, cross-eyed, boneheads who learn to drive at 17 drive at the speed limit. As soon as they pass their test they drive their Subaru Impreza's at ridiculous speeds. Factor in people who aren't very good at judging distances (most women), people with poor eyesight, complacent drivers (Lorries, taxi drivers, WVM), foreigners who passed their tests in Nairobi and Delhi and people who simply make the occasional mistake it's a mystery things aren't worse than they already are.


 
Wow!!

This post blows me away. I feel sure it is tongue-in-cheek. It just has to be.

Doesn't it?


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## MacB (18 Dec 2011)

1648726 said:


> OK that's enough for me.


 
but there's so much more, think of what you could be missing


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## brokenflipflop (18 Dec 2011)

It's not that radical an opinion, Unless you read the Guardian of course.


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## Bicycle (19 Dec 2011)

brokenflipflop said:


> It's not that radical an opinion, Unless you read the Guardian of course.


 
It takes one to know one, on that basis I have to say I suspect that Trollery is at large here.

All of the types you define (apart from the Subaru bit) are just as likely to ride bicycles. 

I have never heard before that women are poor judges of distance. One or two women have told me that occasional difficulties with judging smaller distances are attributable to having spent much of their adult life being told that something 4" long is 7" long. This sad truth apart, women make far fewer motor insurance claims.

I fear your sweeping and inaccurate generalisations may have killed what could have been quite an interesting thread.

But that's half the fun of an online forum.


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## GrumpyGregry (19 Dec 2011)

brokenflipflop said:


> I don't know. Enlighten me.





brokenflipflop said:


> When I say segregation I mean totally separate. Not cycle lanes - cycle roads that aren't shared. It wont happen of course but deaths will continue as long as cycles and cars are on the road as sure as eggs are eggs and no amount of training/laws/sentences/education will change that. Most tattooed, cross-eyed, boneheads who learn to drive at 17 drive at the speed limit. As soon as they pass their test they drive their Subaru Impreza's at ridiculous speeds. Factor in people who aren't very good at judging distances (most women), people with poor eyesight, complacent drivers (Lorries, taxi drivers, WVM), foreigners who passed their tests in Nairobi and Delhi and people who simply make the occasional mistake it's a mystery things aren't worse than they already are.


My friend, the second quote suggests you are utterly beyond enlightenment!


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## MrHappyCyclist (19 Dec 2011)

Probably the most important idea in the first instance would be for cyclists all to speak up at once, and all to speak with the same message. If every single person on CycleChat alone were to write to their MP about, for example, presumed liability, that might get noticed. (Or maybe not.)

Why do I mention presumed liability? Well, there is not a consensus about segregation so there's little point in trying to get people to put a common message across on that, and in any case, there will be no significant segregated infrastructure created in the short term given the financial constraints. So, we have to share with motor vehicles no matter what our ideal position would be. The biggest problem with sharing is the culture and attitude of motorists who, at the very least, fail to leave sufficient margin for error when driving. The only two ways to address that are: education, and legislation to make drivers bear more of the consequences of their actions. The biggest obstacle getting in the way of the latter is a lack of political will in the face of a strong motoring lobby.


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## Gbola (19 Dec 2011)

totallyfixed said:


> While I agree with your sentiments separating cyclists from motor vehicles it is the thin end of a very thick wedge to my thinking and will only lead to the general belief among motorists that cyclists have no right to be on the road anywhere. I have said this on another thread, the only way forward is to change the law as per most other countries in Europe and give way to cyclists. None of this nonsense of having to stop if you are on a cycle path for every road, drive or track you cross. We need to make the penalties high for any vehicle that hits a cyclist, full stop.


I support your argument. Being a cyclist and someone who does about 3000 miles of driving per month


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## Gbola (19 Dec 2011)

brokenflipflop said:


> When I say segregation I mean totally separate. Not cycle lanes - cycle roads that aren't shared. It wont happen of course but deaths will continue as long as cycles and cars are on the road as sure as eggs are eggs and no amount of training/laws/sentences/education will change that. Most tattooed, cross-eyed, boneheads who learn to drive at 17 drive at the speed limit. As soon as they pass their test they drive their Subaru Impreza's at ridiculous speeds. Factor in people who aren't very good at judging distances (most women), people with poor eyesight, complacent drivers (Lorries, taxi drivers, WVM), foreigners who passed their tests in Nairobi and Delhi and people who simply make the occasional mistake it's a mystery things aren't worse than they already are.


And really what percentage of accidents in this country are caused by foreign born car owners? Do they disproportionately cause more accidents than the ''natives'' ? I hope you know you can only drive with a foreign driving licence within the first year of your arrival in UK? Please provide your evidence


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## Gbola (19 Dec 2011)

Cyclists themselves need some training. I have since noticed the difference in the attitude of the motorists to me (whether forced or not) since I started following the advice of John Franklin in his book ''cyclecraft''.


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## brokenflipflop (19 Dec 2011)

Gbola said:


> And really what percentage of accidents in this country are caused by foreign born car owners? Do they disproportionately cause more accidents than the ''natives'' ? I hope you know you can only drive with a foreign driving licence within the first year of your arrival in UK? Please provide your evidence


Your kidding right? Anyone with a driving license from anywhere can drive on our roads for a whole year. Bloody Hell ! That doesn't apply to pilots and gun ownership and such like does it ?


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## brokenflipflop (19 Dec 2011)

GregCollins said:


> My friend, the second quote suggests you are utterly beyond enlightenment!


Yeah, but now we're friends you'll forgive me right ?


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## Zoiders (19 Dec 2011)

Ahhh Gbola...the little sock puppet.


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## Gbola (19 Dec 2011)

brokenflipflop said:


> Your kidding right? Anyone with a driving license from anywhere can drive on our roads for a whole year. Bloody Hell ! That doesn't apply to pilots and gun ownership and such like does it ?


Don't forget you can drive in foreign countries with your licence as well.


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## brokenflipflop (19 Dec 2011)

MrHappyCyclist said:


> Probably the most important idea in the first instance would be for cyclists all to speak up at once, and all to speak with the same message. If every single person on CycleChat alone were to write to their MP about, for example, presumed liability, that might get noticed. (Or maybe not.)
> 
> Why do I mention presumed liability? Well, there is not a consensus about segregation so there's little point in trying to get people to put a common message across on that, and in any case, there will be no significant segregated infrastructure created in the short term given the financial constraints. So, we have to share with motor vehicles no matter what our ideal position would be. The biggest problem with sharing is the culture and attitude of motorists who, at the very least, fail to leave sufficient margin for error when driving. The only two ways to address that are: education, and legislation to make drivers bear more of the consequences of their actions. The biggest obstacle getting in the way of the latter is a lack of political will in the face of a strong motoring lobby.


The evidence/public information films/common knowledge and the law suggest that people know full well the consequences of using a mobile phone whilst driving - the worst outcome is obviously killing someone, perhaps get a fine and 3 points, perhaps get away with it. So why do people still do it? Apply the same logic to drivers apathy towards cyclists and other road users - it wont ever change no matter what the consequences are. Getting from A to B in an X5 to pick up Tarquin and Tabitha is the priority and then to get back home around the corner ASAP to make tea (dinner) for Tobias before Tarquin has Lacrosse training.


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## Gbola (19 Dec 2011)

I think how to react to cyclists must be incorporated into driving lessons compulsorily. This should also be tested compulsorily in the theory and practical aspects of the driving test.


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## brokenflipflop (19 Dec 2011)

Bicycle said:


> I fear your sweeping and inaccurate generalisations may have killed what could have been quite an interesting thread.
> 
> But that's half the fun of an online forum.


Almost always without exception I am in the minority of one where my opinion is concerned. My children call me a freak but I like to think I'm unconventional.


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## Zoiders (19 Dec 2011)

Do they teach how to react to cyclists when you train as a vet in Switzerland?


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## Gbola (19 Dec 2011)

What about raising public awareness, making it a public issue. Can cyclist organisations force government fund advertisement on how motorists should interact with cyclists? Can this be funded by the organisations themselves?


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## Little yellow Brompton (19 Dec 2011)

brokenflipflop said:


> Your kidding right? Anyone with a driving license from anywhere can drive on our roads for a whole year. Bloody Hell ! That doesn't apply to pilots and gun ownership and such like does it ?


Yes it does apply to pilots and gun owners, they can also legally drive on out roads for a year with a driving liceence from anywhere.


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## brokenflipflop (19 Dec 2011)

Advertisement of starving kid - yeah, that'll work, sure. Advert with Johnny Iceberg on his top of the range CF, lycra'd up in Assos - don't think it'll get the sympathy vote really.


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## brokenflipflop (19 Dec 2011)

Little yellow Brompton said:


> Yes it does apply to pilots and gun owners, they can also legally drive on out roads for a year with a driving liceence from anywhere.


A driving liceence maybe, but what about a driving licence ?


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## Gbola (19 Dec 2011)

brokenflipflop said:


> Advertisement of starving kid - yeah, that'll work, sure. Advert with Johnny Iceberg on his top of the range CF, lycra'd up in Assos - don't think it'll get the sympathy vote really.


I have always had the feeling that cycling have been promoted in this country as a form of recreation mainly rather than as a form of legitimate transportation with added benefit of being green and prolonging life. If the Joe public get to realise this, it will help in modifying their interaction with cyclists. For example it is uncommon for HGV drivers to knock off/push off farm tractors that are doing 10miles per hour on A roads. So why can they extend the same courtesy to cyclists. Education, education.


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## GrumpyGregry (19 Dec 2011)

brokenflipflop said:


> Yeah, but now we're friends you'll forgive me right ?


Nope. I'm only called to forgive my enemies. Sorry.


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## brokenflipflop (19 Dec 2011)

Gbola said:


> I have always had the feeling that cycling have been promoted in this country as a form of recreation mainly rather than as a form of legitimate transportation with added benefit of being green and prolonging life. If the Joe public get to realise this, it will help in modifying their interaction with cyclists. For example it is uncommon for HGV drivers to knock off/push off farm tractors that are doing 10miles per hour on A roads. So why can they extend the same courtesy to cyclists. Education, education.


I'll give you 3 guesses.


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## Little yellow Brompton (19 Dec 2011)

brokenflipflop said:


> A driving liceence maybe, but what about a driving licence ?


Spelling flames, have we got so low so fast?


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## Little yellow Brompton (19 Dec 2011)

Gbola said:


> I have always had the feeling that cycling have been promoted in this country as a form of recreation mainly rather than as a form of legitimate transportation with added benefit of being green and prolonging life. If the Joe public get to realise this, it will help in modifying their interaction with cyclists. For example it is uncommon for HGV drivers to knock off/push off farm tractors that are doing 10miles per hour on A roads. So why can they extend the same courtesy to cyclists. Education, education.


Cyclist don't damage HGV paintwork as much as tractors!


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## Gbola (19 Dec 2011)

Look some of the money for public awareness campaigns could be raised through cycling activities


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## brokenflipflop (19 Dec 2011)

Gbola said:


> Look some of the money for public awareness campaigns could be raised through cycling activities


Judging by your hair-brained ideas Gbola, you don't work for a local authority do you ?


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## Gbola (19 Dec 2011)

Little yellow Brompton said:


> Cyclist don't damage HGV paintwork as much as tractors!


I do understand the vulnerability of cyclists. However, I would hate to think that the HGV drivers are deliberately going after cyclists rather than due to lack of understanding. One of the great underestimations of the cyclist is his/her speed. Motorists, pedestrians and even cyclists themselves are all culprits of this underestimation. Thus HGV speeding up to overtake and turning left, thinking they would have finished the manoeuvre before the cyclist reach the point. A combination of raising awareness/education and stiff penalty will go a long way


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## Gbola (19 Dec 2011)

brokenflipflop said:


> Judging by your hair-brained ideas Gbola, you don't work for a local authority do you ?


I am not sure


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## brokenflipflop (19 Dec 2011)

1649504 said:


> Harsh. Surely you can do something for a simple soul?


The Guardian crew are in the house !


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## GrumpyGregry (19 Dec 2011)

1649504 said:


> Harsh. Surely you can do something for a simple soul?


I've called him friend. You have to be content with that.


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## brokenflipflop (19 Dec 2011)

Mum, the Guardian readership are ganging up on me again with their intellectual elitism and referring to me in the third person.


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## GrumpyGregry (19 Dec 2011)

brokenflipflop said:


> Mum, the Guardian readership are ganging up on me again with their intellectual elitism and referring to me in the third person.


Watch who you are calling a Guardian reader....


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## brokenflipflop (19 Dec 2011)

Give in to it sunshine.....you know you are


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## GrumpyGregry (19 Dec 2011)

1649723 said:


> Referring to another person in the third person is normal behaviour. It gets worrying when you refer to yourself in the third person.


Now that is sig material.


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## GrumpyGregry (19 Dec 2011)

[QUOTE 1649524, member: 3143"]Looking at the thread wrt to the ticketgate incident that you started the same could be said for you.[/quote]
Are you going to say it then?


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## brokenflipflop (19 Dec 2011)

1649723 said:


> Referring to another person in the third person is normal behaviour. It gets worrying when you refer to yourself in the third person.


Clever..CLEVER


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## brokenflipflop (19 Dec 2011)

So close then


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## The Jogger (19 Dec 2011)

This is worse than current affairs and debates....now that's saying something..


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## growingvegetables (20 Dec 2011)

brokenflipflop said:


> Your kidding right? Anyone with a driving license from anywhere can drive on our roads for a whole year. Bloody Hell ! That doesn't apply to pilots ...


 
An interesting idea - all foreign-trained pilots are now required to treat UK airspace as a roundabout. Should they wish to enter UK airspace, they are required to land outside the landmass of the UK and allow a British-trained pilot to take over.

Hey - it'd relieve the congestion at Heathrow. Bit messy in the Channel though.


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## GrumpyGregry (20 Dec 2011)

brokenflipflop said:


> Give in to it sunshine.....you know you are


Nope. Checked this morning. Definitely not a Guardian reader.


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## GrumpyGregry (20 Dec 2011)

The Jogger said:


> This is worse than current affairs and debates....now that's saying something..


Define 'worse' in this context please


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## martint235 (20 Dec 2011)

GregCollins said:


> Nope. Checked this morning. Definitely not a Guardian reader.


 
Ah but do you require a guardian while you read?

igmc


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## GrumpyGregry (20 Dec 2011)

martint235 said:


> Ah but do you require a guardian while you read?
> 
> igmc


I have a Guardian Angel. Will that do?


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## martint235 (20 Dec 2011)

GregCollins said:


> I have a Guardian Angel. Will that do?


One of those little wooden Bavarian ones or a real one?? I'm sure I've got a real one somewhere kicking about and when I find him I'm going to give him such a slap.


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## sheddy (20 Dec 2011)

Back to the OP - lobby the BBC to get a cycle series on TV


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## GrumpyGregry (20 Dec 2011)

martint235 said:


> One of those little wooden Bavarian ones or a real one?? I'm sure I've got a real one somewhere kicking about and when I find him I'm going to give him such a slap.


A real one of course.


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## Bicycle (20 Dec 2011)

My idea: Ride exactly as I do. I've been riding for forty or more years and am still alive.

I shall feel a complete fool if I'm run down and killed next time I get on my bicycle.

More worryingly for those who take the above advice, I won't be in a position to withdraw the advice!


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## Dan_h (20 Dec 2011)

Bicycle said:


> My idea: Ride exactly as I do. I've been riding for forty or more years and am still alive.
> 
> I shall feel a complete fool if I'm run down and killed next time I get on my bicycle.
> 
> More worryingly for those who take the above advice, I won't be in a position to withdraw the advice!


 
But how are we meant to know exactly how you ride? I am also going to struggle with this if you are one of those guys who cycles round roundabouts without even holding the handlebars...


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## brokenflipflop (20 Dec 2011)

I've been cycling for 4 months and I've been Ok (touch wood). I've survived so long because I take extra care when I see either a women, bonehead or foreigner in a car. It works for me.


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## Titan yer tummy (20 Dec 2011)

brokenflipflop said:


> I've been cycling for 4 months and I've been Ok (touch wood). I've survived so long because I take extra care when I see either a women, bonehead or foreigner in a car. It works for me.



Do you look like your avatar?


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## brokenflipflop (20 Dec 2011)

Not really. Do you ?


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## GrumpyGregry (20 Dec 2011)

brokenflipflop said:


> I've been cycling for 4 months and I've been Ok (touch wood). I've survived so long because* I take extra care when I see either a women, bonehead or foreigner in a car.* It works for me.


It's Christmas so I can't resist...

"They're behind you!"

How does that work?


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## brokenflipflop (20 Dec 2011)

If it's a women, I assume she needs a gap the size of two buses to get her Nissan Micra through so I give her more room. If it's a bonehead I assume he wont indicate and he'll be very impatient and drive too fast so I anticipate this. If it's a foreigner I assume that if they indicate left, they might turn right. These techniques have a proven track record of keeping me alive. Simples


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## Nantmor (20 Dec 2011)

brokenflipflop said:


> I've been cycling for 4 months and I've been Ok (touch wood). I've survived so long because I take extra care when I see either a women, bonehead or foreigner in a car. It works for me.


 
I've been cycling for fifty years, and I have never distinguished between varieties of driver, makes of car or types of vehicle. I treat them all the same and this has so far worked for me. How do you manage to identify foreigners and boneheads?


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## brokenflipflop (20 Dec 2011)

I look through the glass part of the vehicle.


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## Nantmor (20 Dec 2011)

brokenflipflop said:


> I look through the glass part of the vehicle.


 
You must be much more perceptive than me. I find many foreigners look just like us Brits, and likewise I can't tell idiots from drivers as clever as you and me without closer acquaintance. "There's no art to find the mind's construction in the face."


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## brokenflipflop (20 Dec 2011)

Sometimes the make of car is a good indicator e.g. Subaru = bonehead, Wide bore exhaust and 18 inch Amir Khan's = foreigner, Polish number plate = foreigner, Romanian plate = foreigner, long hair and make up = woman, BMW = beware, could tick all boxes including selfish cock. Range Rover with privacy glass = drug pusher using his mobile - take care. There are dozens and it's really useful to spot these just to be safe. Occasionally a nice, thoughtful and considerate person may be driving a BMW but it pays to assume that they're all selfish cocks, who work at phones4u, just in case.


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## Nantmor (20 Dec 2011)

brokenflipflop said:


> Sometimes the make of car is a good indicator e.g. Subaru = bonehead, Wide bore exhaust and 18 inch Amir Khan's = foreigner, Polish number plate = foreigner, Romanian plate = foreigner, long hair and make up = woman, BMW = beware, could tick all boxes including selfish cock. Range Rover with privacy glass = drug pusher using his mobile - take care. There are dozens and it's really useful to spot these just to be safe. Occasionally a nice, thoughtful and considerate person may be driving a BMW but it pays to assume that they're all selfish cocks, who work at phones4u, just in case.


Crikey, thanks for these pointers. I can't believe these tips are infallible though. Are you sure you don't miss a lot of bad drivers? I mean, not all foreigners conform to your prejudices. Surely some Romanians drive British registered cars. Don't some women catch you out by cutting their hair and looking a little mannish perhaps? I think you had better not put too much reliance on your peculiar world view. My advice is to treat all cars the same. Don't trust any of them with your life.
By the way, what is an "18" Amir Khan" when its not a miniature boxer?


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## gaz (20 Dec 2011)

Nantmor said:


> By the way, what is an "18" Amir Khan" when its not a miniature boxer?


Probably wheels.


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## brokenflipflop (20 Dec 2011)

Correct


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## brokenflipflop (20 Dec 2011)

Nantmor said:


> Crikey, thanks for these pointers. I can't believe these tips are infallible though. Are you sure you don't miss a lot of bad drivers?


It's just a starting point. The list is by no means exhaustive. Just follow the main indicators and I've found you can't go far wrong. Yeah, If a woman tries to look like a man, it does make identification more difficult, but then I'd go to different indicators.....is the car pink, is it a Ford KA or a Peugeot 206cc, does she need 7 yards of gap on her side while you squeeze past 12 inches on your side. It may be a peculiar view to some but it's kept me alive for nearly 4 and a half months now.


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## Nantmor (20 Dec 2011)

I really fear you may be putting yourself in danger. Even a someone who looks like an Englishman may prove on closer, too close, acquaintance to be drug dealing woman from Poland. Or perhaps he looks just like you but turns out to have the brain of an invertebrate. Also, I find I am too handicapped to use your system. I cannot tell one make of car from another, except VW Beatles. Where do they come in your hierarchy of competence?


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## brokenflipflop (20 Dec 2011)

As with most safety systems, there is always an element of risk. If I can't pigeon-hole the driver by way of looks or vehicle then my safety model suggests you treat these instances as if it's a foreigner driving a BMW, just to err on the side of caution. As for VW Beatles you've hit on an interesting one there. The classic Beatle should be viewed in the same way as the camper van i.e. polite, friendly and courteous driver. However, the new Beatle i.e. 'W' reg and newer, then proceed with caution and anticipate giving it a wide birth - probable woman driver. You are probably best to treat every driver like a foreigner driving a BMW except in your particular case, you can relax each time you come across a classic Beatle, or not, if it's the "new" Beatle. It sounds complicated but in practice you get used to it.


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## Nantmor (20 Dec 2011)

The reason I am concerned for your safety is that you may not spot some driver in your dangerous categories. Don't expect a vintage VW to not contain a crop haired lesbian driver. A reflection from the windscreen or a too hasty glance behind you may mean you miss some vital clue. I feel you should always fall back on your fail-safe behaviour and treat all cars, vans and lorries, not to mention buses as if they were being driven by an illiterate Gujerati with a ton of crack cocaine concealed under the floor. Don't trust any of the bastards, and you won't go far wrong. Even what looks like a true born Englishman in an (here fill in name of car acceptable to you) may turn out to be a Guardian reading bonehead.


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## brokenflipflop (20 Dec 2011)

A spare rib tickler driving a Classic VW I would treat as courteous but I would hope I could tell the gender. This is a problem actually because a lot of young lads look a bit puffy these days and a lot of girls are displaying lad like behaviour so it's not easy. Fortunately I live in a part of Manchester where there aren't many Guardian readers but there are a lot on boneheads. There are also a lot of rug munchers, bi's and boys who like boys and boys who look like girls and girls who look like boys that like boys and girls who look like boys but like girls.......hang on. I'm going to have to re-visit my model and get back to you when I've sorted this out


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## Nantmor (20 Dec 2011)

You haven't got on to cyclists yet. Can you help us out with a categorisation of cyclists, by nationality, hair length, sex, bike make and type, sexual orientation preferred drug and daily newspaper.
How can you tell there aren't many Guardian readers in Manchester? It used to be the Manchester Guardian after all. I fear you may be right about the boneheads, though.
Please, abandon your attempts to spot bad drivers, just treat them all the same. The only safe way is to assume they will all do the most dangerous thing in any situation and to rejoice when they don't.
"Look a bit puffy these days" ! You should have heard what the squares called youths like me forty years ago. (I presume you mean pouffy, not bloated).


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## Bicycle (20 Dec 2011)

This thread is an education.

I keep looking for myself in there, but despite my occasionally quite dreadful driving, I seem to have skipped nimble-footed between any of the areas flagged up by MohicanCat.

I don't want to reveal the car I drive or my nationality, in case I am added to the list.


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## hobo (20 Dec 2011)

I find Volvo drivers are the best and i like women drivers even though they arent as good judging time and spacings they are slower and more cautious than men.


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## Nantmor (20 Dec 2011)

hobo said:


> I find Volvo drivers are the best and i like women drivers even though they arent as good judging time and spacings they are slower and more cautious than men.


 
I expect most have heard that because of an EU ruling against sex discrimination women will now have to pay higher insurance premiums, because previously they were assessed as a better risk than men.


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## hobo (21 Dec 2011)

Heres to women Volvo drivers! Good night.


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## GrumpyGregry (21 Dec 2011)

I just assume all drivers are cocks. Including me if I'm driving. Some will consciously attempt to scare, injure, inconvenience, or kill me whilst others will achieve the same ends unconsciously.


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## brokenflipflop (21 Dec 2011)

Nantmor said:


> You should have heard what the squares called youths like me forty years ago. (I presume you mean pouffy, not bloated).


Nantmor. Referring to some people as "squares" is really quite insulting! And, furthermore, mummy and daddy run a newsagents and they only sell red top papers due to demand. I'm obviously a little more sophisticated than that but it appears everyone around here likes boobies, X-factor and Kerry Katona. A little off subject but I found out yesterday that females working for CAB don't like being referred to as "love". And I thought I knew everything - it was actually a puffy chap there that objected though so it might just have been him. If either of them were driving they'd be - approach with caution.


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## Dan_h (21 Dec 2011)

brokenflipflop said:


> It's just a starting point. The list is by no means exhaustive. Just follow the main indicators and I've found you can't go far wrong. Yeah, If a woman tries to look like a man, it does make identification more difficult, but then I'd go to different indicators.....is the car pink, is it a Ford KA or a Peugeot 206cc, does she need 7 yards of gap on her side while you squeeze past 12 inches on your side. It may be a peculiar view to some but it's kept me alive for nearly 4 and a half months now.


 
So what you are basically saying is if you see anyone driving any sort of vehicle then beware!


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## Bicycle (21 Dec 2011)

GregCollins said:


> I just assume all drivers are cocks. Including me if I'm driving. Some will consciously attempt to scare, injure, inconvenience, or kill me whilst *others will achieve the same ends unconsciously*.


 
Driving while unconscious? That is both impressive and dangerous.


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## brokenflipflop (21 Dec 2011)

Dan_h said:


> So what you are basically saying is if you see anyone driving any sort of vehicle then beware!


Yes. Unless it's a man in a Classic VW Beatle or Camper van, then you can afford to be less aware. Unless they have a disability of course. Then it's proceed with caution.


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## Dan B (21 Dec 2011)

brokenflipflop said:


> Yes. Unless it's a man in a Classic VW Beatle


That's BEETLE. Unless they've named the car in question John, Paul, George or Pete


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## GrumpyGregry (21 Dec 2011)

Bicycle said:


> Driving while unconscious? That is both impressive and dangerous.


Noun dear bike not adjective.


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## GrumpyGregry (21 Dec 2011)

Dan_h said:


> So what you are basically saying is if you see anyone driving any sort of vehicle then beware!


To be fair you need to give some cyclists and pedestrians a wide berth too.


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## brokenflipflop (21 Dec 2011)

Sorry. My incorrect spelling of Beetle has been picked up by the moderators as well. Consider myself bollocked :-)


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## Cyclopathic (24 Dec 2011)

My bugbear at the moment is people who park in cycle lanes so I'd like to see this be made an offecnce in the same way parking on double yellows is an offence. In Leicester the wardens have no instructions to ticket people parked in cycle lanes and lack the means to do so.

The way cycle lanes have been introduced is fairly laughable and I can't help thinking there has to be a better way of organising things but whilst we have them, such as they are, it makes sense to at least keep them free of obstructions.


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