# Secondary brake levers .... a surprising disclaimer



## Donger (17 Nov 2017)

I have recently acquired a new addition to my stable, a nice new Ridgeback Panorama steel tourer which I shall be riding for the first time tomorrow. My old bike is the same make and the previous version of the same model. That one came factory fitted with additional secondary brake levers, fitted as standard. As I suffer from chronic neck pain, and am unable to ride long distances on drop barred bikes without secondary levers, this suited me just fine.

While the new version of the Panorama comes with a few upgrades (such as disc brakes, a bigger cassette and better cable routing), one notable difference from the old model is the absence of secondary brake levers. So I had a pair added at my LBS before I picked up my new steed. You might notice that it came with yellow stickers attached to the brake levers:





I have to say I was somewhat taken aback to discover what the stickers actually said:




If they are not effective enough to pass safety standards, why can they still be sold in the UK?
I must say that I have pretty much always had the stopping distance of an oil tanker, which I assumed to be because of my weight and my use of rim brakes. Every time I put the bike in the LBS I always ask him to tighten up the cables as much as possible. When properly maintained, they have never yet actually let me down to the point where I have been unable to stop and just the other day my rear wheel locked up when successfully performing an emergency stop. They have required a fair amount of maintenance though, and have quickly become progressively less effective, but it had never occurred to me that the levers themselves might have been to blame. I always just assumed I was stretching the cables more than your average cyclist due to my weight.

Anyone ever experienced problems with secondary levers? I intend to continue using them, and am actually expecting improved braking performance because of the upgrade to discs. I think I may bear the warning in mind from now on though, and may consider reaching for the main brake levers when I find myself in dodgy situations.


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## ColinJ (17 Nov 2017)

Donger said:


> I think I may bear the warning in mind from now on though, and may consider reaching for the main brake levers when I find myself in dodgy situations.


Surely the definition of a 'dodgy situation' is one that happens very suddenly and/or unexpectedly, which wouldn't give you a lot of time for switching to the other levers?


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## derrick (18 Nov 2017)

They have never had the same feel as normal brakes, if you have had them before you would no that.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (18 Nov 2017)

Any fule no dat


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## SpokeyDokey (18 Nov 2017)

Surely the stopping force provided by using those levers would be at least the same as using the main levers from the top of the hoods?

I have crosstop levers on my CX (rim braked) and they work fine (as far as rim brakes do work fine) for me.


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## andrew_s (18 Nov 2017)

I used them on my last bike, with BB7 Road discs, and they worked better than the drop bar levers did (not much, but a bit).
On the new bike, they don't work so well, but that's because I switched to BB7 Mtn (black) with Tektro RL520 V-brake drop bar levers. I've yet to switch to a V-compatible crosstop lever, but even the old ones aren't too bad provided I keep the pads adjusted.


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## Drago (18 Nov 2017)

I wonder why they're nicknamed 'suicide levers'?


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## summerdays (18 Nov 2017)

Drago said:


> I wonder why they're nicknamed 'suicide levers'?


Isn't the design of the modern secondary levers different to the suicide levers? I haven't got both types to compare.


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## Levo-Lon (18 Nov 2017)

There inline so dont have as much pull ,leverage as the brake lever.
Bit like dog leg levers work better than straight levers on motorcycles, tho that's more to do with the hand position moving your grip closer to the palm so more power in your grip as you squeeze. the in lines are shorter than the shifter lever.
Most of us brake with them from the top anyway so less power!!

The ones i fitted to my wife's road bike ' she couldn't use the drop bar levers' were great.
And if you have your fingers over the lever as you ride that will mean quicker reaction time compared to having to move your hands to reach and grab the shifter lever brake, so in that respect there better in stopping time?


Nice bike btw @Donger ..i like that


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## dave r (18 Nov 2017)

summerdays said:


> Isn't the design of the modern secondary levers different to the suicide levers? I haven't got both types to compare.



I've no experience of the modern secondary brake levers, but I well remember the old suicide levers, they were aptly named.


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## andrew_s (18 Nov 2017)

summerdays said:


> Isn't the design of the modern secondary levers different to the suicide levers? I haven't got both types to compare.


Suicide levers had a pivot on the inside of the main drop bar lever body, with the lever extending rearwards round the handlebar, and forwards to hook over the top of the main brake lever, so that pulling the suicide lever pushed the drop lever down. The travel was often long enough that the lever reached the bar before the drop lever had moved far enough to do very much.

Modern secondary levers work by forcing apart two sections of outer, changing the relative inner and outer lengths so that there's less inner spare at the caliper end. It's a much more effective way of arranging a secondary lever.
Possible problems are that version of secondary lever that you get doesn't have the same cable pull as the brake caliper requires (sounds like @meta lon's problem), and that you've 4 outer ends to cut properly square rather than two (improperly dressed outer ends that allow a bit of flex/compression is a common cause of poor braking).


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## andrew_s (18 Nov 2017)

Drago said:


> I wonder why they're nicknamed 'suicide levers'?


They were called that because they didn't work very well, and if emergency braking was required when your hands were on them, most people just tried to pull them harder, with the result that they didn't stop in time to avoid the accident. 
Without them, you'd have had to move the hands to the drop levers and been able to brake properly.
Of course, there's no reason why you couldn't let go of the suicide levers and move to the drop levers, but the quick decision making and mental fortitude required to let go of the brakes during emergency braking is beyond most people.


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## Donger (18 Nov 2017)

ColinJ said:


> Surely the definition of a 'dodgy situation' is one that happens very suddenly and/or unexpectedly, which wouldn't give you a lot of time for switching to the other levers?


True, but I was thinking more of some rides I've done recently when descending long 25% stretches on narrow lanes. There have been moments when my fingers have been going white and I'm still doing 10mph. I've never had to find out how much more braking power I had left to call on, but you start to make judgments about which hedge looks more comfortable in the event of meeting oncoming traffic!


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## Ajax Bay (18 Nov 2017)

Donger said:


> one notable difference from the old model is the absence of secondary brake levers. So I had a pair added at my LBS before I picked up my new steed. You might notice that it came with yellow stickers attached


What is the make/model of the secondary brake levers the LBS fitted for you? I cannot see how operating the primary brake levers would not exert the required stopping force, even with these secondaries in-line. So how can the bicycle suddenly be deemed unsafe? I can see that, in testing, use of the secondaries might not meet the grade. But secondaries are just that, for general riding: you need to be on primary when braking is likely required (eg downhill, approaching an obstruction or possible obstruction at speed).


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## Ajax Bay (18 Nov 2017)

Donger said:


> some rides I've done recently when descending long 25% stretches on narrow lanes.


If you can't brake forcefully enough (with the brakes you have fitted) to stay at a sensible speed down such lanes, don't use them (the lanes, that is). Should be on drops downhill (and the primary levers), and temporarily put up with a bit of your chronic neck pain.


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## ColinJ (18 Nov 2017)

Donger said:


> True, but I was thinking more of some rides I've done recently when descending long 25% stretches on narrow lanes. There have been moments when my fingers have been going white and I'm still doing 10mph. I've never had to find out how much more braking power I had left to call on, but you start to make judgments about which hedge looks more comfortable in the event of meeting oncoming traffic!


I had that experience with the crappy Render R front brake on my CAAD X even though it had a conventional lever. I had the lever pulled to the bar but I was still descending faster than I wanted to. I put a different brake on after that fright!


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## raleighnut (18 Nov 2017)

I use em as the only brake levers on my 653 framed bike with the cable nipple in the adjuster.


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## Donger (18 Nov 2017)

Ajax Bay said:


> What is the make/model of the secondary brake levers the LBS fitted for you? I cannot see how operating the primary brake levers would not exert the required stopping force, even with these secondaries in-line. So how can the bicycle suddenly be deemed unsafe? I can see that, in testing, use of the secondaries might not meet the grade. But secondaries are just that, for general riding: you need to be on primary when braking is likely required (eg downhill, approaching an obstruction or possible obstruction at speed).


I couldn't say what make they are, but they have a zig-zaggy "S" logo on them. I have always relied on secondary levers when descending, because of a condition known as "neck spurs" that makes it very uncomfortable to lift your head for long periods while your hands are down on the drops. Descending with straight arms and a more comfortable upright position improves my riding range by at least 40 miles and eliminates neck pain the following day. My solution to poor braking efficiency has always been to brake earlier and longer, and to generally descend slower than the people I am riding with. It makes me look like a nervous descender, but in my case it is just pragmatism. I have always chewed through brake pads faster than anyone I know.


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## Ajax Bay (18 Nov 2017)

Long 25% stretches down narrow lanes are not for you then. Or frankly for me; you never know what's coming round the corner/bend or what the road condition is going to be like round the next (narrow) bend.


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## bigjim (18 Nov 2017)

Suicide levers worked fine as long as you kept the brakes properly adjusted. I used them for many years [avatar pic] and they were plenty powerful. Although these and the modern version are only intended for use in heavy traffic and slowish riding. They are not designed for downhill braking. Plus, IMO, the way they are placed on the inner part of the bar they take away some of the benefits of handling/steering the bike.
I have the modern cross levers on one of my touring bikes that assist longdrop caliper brakes that are not that good. They are however more powerful than the STI brake levers fitted. Modern STIs though, on a normal drop caliper or discs should be plenty powerful and they are designed to brake powerfully from the hoods. They should not need to be operated from the drops to achieve full force. I think there is something wrong if you need the additional levers on a disc equipped bike.


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## Ajax Bay (18 Nov 2017)

bigjim said:


> They should not need to be operated from the drops to achieve full force.


Agreed, but getting down on the drops downhill means your centre of gravity is lowered, you are all round 'stronger' on the bars, and your fingers are operating the lever further down so you've got more leverage, if needed, and it's less tiring on the arms/hands (think Hardknott and Wrynose Passes). My perception is that the thing that gives first in an accident (where the bike stays upright to start with) is your grip on the bars.


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## Donger (18 Nov 2017)

bigjim said:


> .... I think there is something wrong if you need the additional levers on a disc equipped bike.


You may have missed my reasons above, Jim. (Neck spurs/comfortable riding position). And, @User13710 , I did have a bike with exactly the same running gear as my first Panorama, but fitted with flat bars. Try as I might, I could never get within 2mph of my top speed on the Panorama ..... which is only just fast enough to keep up on club rides. This bike is the best compromise I could find that would serve as a club ride, audax and general touring bike.
Thanks for all the replies though, guys.


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## andrew_s (18 Nov 2017)

Specialized Top Mount levers.

I wouldn't get them, on account of no adjusters. Unless there are adjusters elsewhere in the cable run, that would make brake setup more difficult than it should be, but if they are set up properly, so there's minimal brake lever movement before the caliper arm moves, there's no reason why they shouldn't brake well.

It's good practice to bed disc pads in with a few hard stops on each brake before using them for regular riding. You can try out the top levers at the same time and see how they feel. As @Ajax Bay said, the drop bar braking won't be affected, unless there are poorly cut outer cable ends at the levers.

Your problems with the old bike seem normal for cantilever brakes, which have always been fussy about setup, and with the required cable setup changing with pad wear.


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## Lonestar (18 Nov 2017)

dave r said:


> I've no experience of the modern secondary brake levers, but I well remember the old suicide levers, they were aptly named.








Yup,they were awful.


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## summerdays (18 Nov 2017)

Lonestar said:


> View attachment 383624
> 
> 
> Yup,they were awful.


That's the bike my husband had when I met him


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## oldwheels (18 Nov 2017)

I well remember the so called suicide levers. I have had them on all my drop bar touring bikes and found no problem with sensible use. For touring they gave reasonable slowing down easily. For steep hills I simply moved my hands down when I knew more stopping power would be needed. Somehow in my nearly 70 years touring I never found myself in an emergency situation.


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## bigjim (18 Nov 2017)

> Yup,they were awful.


Not really. never had a problem with them.


> You may have missed my reasons above, Jim.


Don't think so. I was making the point that you should have no problem braking from the hoods in an upright position with the newer levers as they are designed for such. You don't need to brake from the drops these days. The old Weinnmann non aero brakes were designed to be operated more efficiently from the drops. Not so with modern brakes. I struggle with the dropped position on a few of my bikes so I don't usually bother and I descend at 40mph+ on many a club ride. One such descent ends at a set of lights and I have no braking problem plus I'm a big heavy guy. I personally don't see that much advantage in descending on the drops as I've enough weight on me to push me at more speed than I want to travel at. I can still tuck in without hitting the drops.
One thing occured to me. How is your grip?


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## Ming the Merciless (18 Nov 2017)

I had secondary levers on my racing bike I got in the 80's. No problem stopping in the places you would be using them.


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## Donger (18 Nov 2017)

bigjim said:


> .... One thing occured to me. How is your grip?


About what you'd expect for an ex shot putter and second row forward! I squeeze the bejeezus out of the levers on my regular bike to get the desired braking .... and the fact that I chew through pads so fast would suggest that the force is getting through. I am (ahem) 20 stone, though!

It (the reason for secondary levers) really is _all_ about the neck with me. I guess if you've never experienced that, it might be difficult to convey. I used to find that if I ever went over 20-25 miles, I was in agony when I got home and tried to lift the garage door. Now I can happily do 60-70 miles with no neck pain.


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## Banjo (18 Nov 2017)

Great looking bike @Donger.

I am sure you will be fine with the brakes but you would think that if the LBS is going to fit something that doesn't meet standards they would inform you and let you decide beforehand not just fit them and rely on silly plastic tags as disclaimers.


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## Mrs M (18 Nov 2017)

I have secondary brakes on my road bike, work fine and no yellow stickers


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## TheDoctor (18 Nov 2017)

Those levers are fine. I use them as the only lever on my SS, and have done for years.


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## bigjim (18 Nov 2017)

Donger said:


> About what you'd expect for an ex shot putter and second row forward! I squeeze the bejeezus out of the levers on my regular bike to get the desired braking .... and the fact that I chew through pads so fast would suggest that the force is getting through. I am (ahem) 20 stone, though!
> 
> It (the reason for secondary levers) really is _all_ about the neck with me. I guess if you've never experienced that, it might be difficult to convey. I used to find that if I ever went over 20-25 miles, I was in agony when I got home and tried to lift the garage door. Now I can happily do 60-70 miles with no neck pain.


I'm not quite as heavy as you but. A few years ago I had a newish tourer that I had been using for club rides and local training runs. It has cantilever brakes and I had no problems with them. I was talked into attempting the Coast to Coast. I loaded the bike up with four panniers and full camping gear. Everything seemed fine. Until I was descending a steep hill in pouring rain. Applied the brakes for a left turn coming up. Not a chance! Nothing. The damn thing just kept on rolling, gathering speed. All that weight was defeating the brakes. Thought I was going to die. Shot right past the turn and the only thing that saved me was when the road started to rise and I could eventually stop. I think your weight has a lot to do with the problem, including wearing your pads. I go through pads as well but I'm no lightweight either.


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## Elybazza61 (18 Nov 2017)

Could be just Specialized covering their arses if something goes wrong 

We've fitted them to a few bikes in the shop with no issues all on disc braked bikes.


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## winjim (18 Nov 2017)

I'm confused by the label. It says that _the bicycle_ will not meet EN14764/14781 as _secondary_ levers do not produce the required force. Surely performance of the secondary levers is irrelevant so long as the primary levers are able to meet the standards. It could be, of course, that installation of the secondaries affects the system in such a way that the primaries are unable to produce the required force, but that's not what the label says.


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## Lonestar (18 Nov 2017)

No.Generally I found secondary levers crap and the main brakes were not much better.


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## alecstilleyedye (18 Nov 2017)

the cross levers on my boardman cx are my brake of choice; makes filtering between two lines of traffic a lot safer…


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## Andy_R (18 Nov 2017)

Elybazza61 said:


> Could be just Specialized covering their arses if something goes wrong
> 
> We've fitted them to a few bikes in the shop with no issues all on disc braked bikes.


^^This.
It's just arse covering bollocks. Secondary "interruptor" brakes are as good as any others. They stop the wheel from turning. Simples.


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## ColinJ (19 Nov 2017)

Lonestar said:


> View attachment 383624


Note how the primary brake levers are drilled to offset the added weight of the suicide levers!


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## Gravity Aided (19 Nov 2017)

I will now bring up trekking and mustache bars, these would allow you to use the primary brakes from a less than upright position, yet not as severe as drop bars. As an XXL cyclist much of the same size and shape as yourself (thanks, Netherlands), I can verify that secondary brake systems may be as useful as teats on a boar hog.




Butterfly, trekking bars.




Mustache bars.
I have used both of these in the past, and find they offer positive aero characteristics and hand position choices on a par with drop bars. Handlebar width will be just as important, though, so get a good idea of your measurement for proper fitting. Admittedly, I still use drops, as I need the position over distance to keep my lower back from creating problems I would experience from a more upright riding position.


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## hopless500 (19 Nov 2017)

dave r said:


> I've no experience of the modern secondary brake levers, but I well remember the old suicide levers, they were aptly named.


My Wisp has suicide levers. Can't reach the main brake levers but the adjusted suicide levers work well.


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## Nebulous (19 Nov 2017)

raleighnut said:


> I use em as the only brake levers on my 653 framed bike with the cable nipple in the adjuster.
> 
> View attachment 383621



If Mad Max did bikes...... Crossbow mount in the middle?


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## Tenacious Sloth (19 Nov 2017)

Lovely new bike @Donger.

I don’t know if you’ve ridden cable-operated discs before, but prepare to be initially underwhelmed when you first use them today.

But don’t panic.

A couple of years ago I bought a CAADX fitted with Pro Render R cable-operated disc brakes which have been universally slammed as being “pants” (including on this thread). This was my initial assessment as well, but since properly breaking them in, I now think they’re fantastic.

The breaking in procedure has been covered many times on this forum, but in a nutshell find a nice, long, steepish, but most importantly open/safe hill and, one brake at a time, gradually apply pressure until you almost come to a stop, then release. Do not hold the brake on after coming to a stop unless you want pad material glued to your disks. Repeat until you’re happy with the braking.

Most of all, enjoy the new bike and I hope it maintains the smile that was put onto your face after we beat the Aussies yesterday (I was going to say “thrashed” but even I have to admit that the score flattered us).



Graham


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## Banjo (19 Nov 2017)

Tenacious Sloth said:


> Lovely new bike @Donger.
> 
> I don’t know if you’ve ridden cable-operated discs before, but prepare to be initially underwhelmed when you first use them today.
> 
> ...


Same experience with my Synapse


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## Randy Butternubs (19 Nov 2017)

bigjim said:


> I'm not quite as heavy as you but. A few years ago I had a newish tourer that I had been using for club rides and local training runs. It has cantilever brakes and I had no problems with them. I was talked into attempting the Coast to Coast. I loaded the bike up with four panniers and full camping gear. Everything seemed fine. Until I was descending a steep hill in pouring rain. Applied the brakes for a left turn coming up. Not a chance! Nothing. The damn thing just kept on rolling, gathering speed. All that weight was defeating the brakes. Thought I was going to die. Shot right past the turn and the only thing that saved me was when the road started to rise and I could eventually stop. I think your weight has a lot to do with the problem, including wearing your pads. I go through pads as well but I'm no lightweight either.



I had a similar experience and was only saved by a bit of fred-flintstoning. In my case it was entirely the fault of the stock brake pads - it must've been my first properly wet ride on them and they practically disintegrated into slippery black ink.


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## Smokin Joe (19 Nov 2017)

Provided whatever levers you fit can apply the full force of the pads to the rim or the disc without running out of travel before they touch the bars I can't see any problem.


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## raleighnut (19 Nov 2017)

Nebulous said:


> If Mad Max did bikes...... Crossbow mount in the middle?


 Nah I've got a set of Electron dual front lights, that's where they mount. I used to do a lot of night-time riding on that bike mainly on unlit back lanes so needed a lot of light, they're not 'Retina Burners' and they don't flash or strobe but each lamp unit has 8 LEDs rated at 5w and they're independently switchable.




Although I've got the earlier set with a square battery pack.

They mount to most of my other bikes too, here they are on the front of the Trike mounted on another 'Space Bar'


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## bigjim (19 Nov 2017)

Regarding the heavy bit. The only concession manufacturers seem to make for bigger riders is the size of the frame. All the other items such as wheels, brakes, gears etc are stock whether you are 11 stone or 20. I wonder if they build down to the 11 or up to the 20 in terms of robustness? My money is on down.


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## Old jon (19 Nov 2017)

^^^^

Phil Irving has a view on this, I shall approximate because rake angle and trail will influence the result. If the weight supported by the front wheel is 60 lb the bending moment applied to the headstock will be about 50 lb/ft. ‘These loads may be multiplied from 3 to 10 times under impact.’ The previous sentence is a direct quote. I have never seen or heard of bicycle frame failure ( OK that does not mean it don’t happen ) around the headstock, so I guess frames at least are sufficiently robust.


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## PaulSB (20 Nov 2017)

For me the main issue with such levers is reaction in an emergency and would be the reason not to use them - again.

Several years ago after an accident it was six months before my right hand could exert enough force to use the lever on the drop. I had secondary levers fitted which I agree are easy and comfortable to apply.

What I found dangerous for me was the lack of control in some situations caused by grabbing at brake levers positioned in the centre of the bars - that is moving my hands from the hoods to the secondary levers reduced my overall control of the bike.

Once they were removed it took several months for my brain to unlearn which levers to use in situations where braking was instinctive rather than planned - even though the secondary levers weren’t there!!

I can understand why people use them but I wouldn’t again. I’d rather move to flat bars.


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