# Velocharger?



## Blue Hills (1 Jan 2018)

Anyone got any experience of or views on this:

https://www.spacycles.co.uk/m2b276s208p3515/ADEPT-ELECTRONICS-VeloCharger-for-Hub-Dynamo

Am doing some early research on such things before in time getting a dynamo wheel for the expedition tourer.

I know that the B&M wunderkinds do devices for this sort of thing but from what I can figure both of their devices are unecessarily clever/expensive and have features I don't need, ie: a cache battery in one and an ability to adjust the output in the other.

I do not intend to charge any running devices from one of these things (my Garmin runs on rechargeable AAs), just charge up an Anker Powerbank. 

Am I right in thinking that it is advisable to have a switch somewhere in the line so that during daylight you can switch off any dynamo light (in time I will doubtless get one of those as well) and have all the power fed to charging the powerbank?

If so, where should this switch be? In the convertor itself or somehow wired into the line from the dynamo?

Final question - any desirable features in such things which I should look for but have very possibly not even thought of?

Thanks in anticipation, happy new year's cycling/touring one and all.


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## Blue Hills (1 Jan 2018)

Another question.

This:

http://www.keeppedalling.co.uk/dynamo-hubs-usb-chargers/

in the last para says:

"If you need a light that also charges there's the B&M Luxos IQ2 that throws out 70 Lux. *Remember that any device that runs off your dynamo is primarily a device charger, not a battery charger. Any device that runs off a cycle dynamo will struggle to charge a battery so its best to stick to charging devices such as phones and GPS's. "*

My bold.

Odd/too cautious?

I was under the impression that a fair few folk used their hub dynamos to charge a powerbank. In fact I rather had the idea that this was the simpler option since you don't have to worry about the electrical neuroses of some devices which I understood could be liable to switch on and off as your pedalling/powering varied in speed. In fact I thought this was why one of the B&M units had a cache battery to regulate the feed to the device. Which I am pretty sure I don't need,.


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## graham bowers (1 Jan 2018)

I used one of these velocharger hub devices last year for charging a 10 Ah usb battery pack exactly as you propose. It was powered by a Shutter Precision PV8. I needed power for a Garmin 810 and iphone 5. I had battery lights. I charged the Garmin and IPhone each evening and then topped the battery up the next day in 4 to 5 hours riding. From memory, I had to be riding at about 11 mph to get any output. On LEJOG I averaged 80 miles a day and had plenty of power. On the Route des Grandes Alpes I go zero output on the ascents as I was trundling up at much less than 11 mph and whilst it charged on the descents, I did end up in power deficit and had to use a wall charger in campsites - this is not a reflection of the velocharger by the way, I expect alternative would have behaved similarly.


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## Blue Hills (1 Jan 2018)

thanks for the reply graham. Yes I had read that you need to be doing a fair pace to get it starting to charge. Could be an issue for me possibly as I will be carrying a ton of stuff on a touring bike. I had the impression that some will maybe charge at a significantly lower speed, perhaps those B&M things with their other unecessary bits/complications.

Am keeping a close look on these things as I cannot help but think that it might be one of those areas where technical offerings are improving all the time. Slight mystery to me why B&M with their expertise don't introduce a cheaper option for simpler needs like mine, but maybe they have marketing/profit margin reasons.

This by the by is what I am planning to charge:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Anker-PowerCore-20100-Capacity-Technology-Black/dp/B00VJSGT2A

Have used on tours before but with recourse to pubs now and again  to boost it. The powerbank is excellent so am looking to pair it with other excellent but simple kit.


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## steveindenmark (1 Jan 2018)

The Igaro D1 is also popular with ultra distance riders.


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## Blue Hills (1 Jan 2018)

steveindenmark said:


> The Igaro D1 is also popular with ultra distance riders.


But why does it cost so much for something that non technical me has the idea is actually pretty simple? Thanks for the suggestion steve but it also I think features titanium bits, something I pretty much avoid on principle.


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## graham bowers (1 Jan 2018)

steveindenmark said:


> The Igaro D1 is also popular with ultra distance riders.


Hadn't heard of this one so have been doing some reading up on it. Seems like a very good unit and charges from quite a lot slower groundspeed than the Velocharger. Its quite a lot of money, but I suppose there is an element of you get what you pay for.


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## steveindenmark (2 Jan 2018)

I have just bought one myself but am waiting for my wheels to be made. I will be running it with a SON 29 dynamo on Hunt wheels. 

It is expensive but I have spoken to some of the Transcontinental Race guys and they say the Igaro D1 is a great bit of kit. You just set it up and leave it. It is also 100% waterproof.


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## Blue Hills (2 Jan 2018)

Sorry if i was sniffy about your suggestion Steve.

Please report back on this thread or within the touring section on your experiences with it.

Suppose i was discouraged by the price and the thought that its clever modular connections are maybe proprietary. And that even something expensive may fail. And then certain bits may be hard to get hold of, if the company is still around. I note that as they sportingly state the usb standard itself is not weatherproof.

I also think they have removed a lifetime guarantee on some bits as some retailers objected to this. Must admit that I don't entirely understand this if the guarantee would always be backed by the manufacturer.

I may go with a cheaper option first to try things out then maybe go with this later.

Look forward to updates from you, when are you hoping to be able to trial it?


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## raleighnut (2 Jan 2018)

It needs to be quite a sophisticated device to turn an AC current that varies both in frequency and voltage into a fixed DC output.


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## Blue Hills (2 Jan 2018)

I bow to your doubtless higher expertise raleighnut, physics and associated school subjects never being my strong point.

Have you used such a device?


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## Aushiker (3 Jan 2018)

Blue Hills said:


> Anyone got any experience of or views on this:
> 
> https://www.spacycles.co.uk/m2b276s208p3515/ADEPT-ELECTRONICS-VeloCharger-for-Hub-Dynamo



It appears to be marketed under different brands so may find user experiences under the alternative brands. The lack of specifications is enough for me to move on and well you pay for what you get ...

I have a prototype charger from Kerry at http://klite.com.au and for the price it is very good. Not sure but if he will go into production with it at this stage.  I would take a look at a Busch & Muller e-Werk for solid device at a "reasonable" price.


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## raleighnut (3 Jan 2018)

Blue Hills said:


> I bow to your doubtless higher expertise raleighnut, physics and associated school subjects never being my strong point.
> 
> Have you used such a device?


No, I don't have anything that I need to charge on the bikes whilst out on them (my e-cig maybe) and my Hub-Dyno is on the 3spd (for now)

My knowledge doesn't come from school though but from working on cars/motorcycles when I left (which have charging systems) What you need though is a form of rectifier/zener diode to deal with the AC aspect but that still leaves the variable voltage DC now motor vehicles deal with this by having a battery so you've got to miniaturise all that lot.
If I needed to have charging though I think I'd do it by charging a 'powerbank' or similar (cheap) then use that to charge devices (expensive) rather than risk damaging any device.

BTW my mobile phone (Nokia) gets charged once a week whether it needs it or not.


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## LeetleGreyCells (3 Jan 2018)

As an alternative / supplementary (and probably impractical) idea that occurs to me, could you not mount one of those lightweight solar panel charger thingies (technical term ) to the top of your handlebar/pannier bag/backpack? I’m assuming you’re touring in Spring/Summer when there’s more daylight of course. Maybe a combination of solar panel and dynamo would charge as well as maintain (if that’s possible without switching between the two USBs from each charge point). If anyone knows electronics, would this be possible? Then you’d have a charge on ascents as well as descents and wouldn’t have to worry about maintaining 11mph all the time. 

Just an idea with no practical knowledge behind it.


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## Blue Hills (3 Jan 2018)

Dogtrousers said:


> This leads to the question: Why not just take a pre-charged power bank (or two) with you and avoid all this fussing?
> 
> I do realise that if you're camping out in the back of beyond with no possible access to mains power to recharge, then this won't work. But aside from that, it seems the simplest answer.


That's my current system dogtrousers. 2100 anker powerbank with, in the uk, sits in the likes of understanding places like spoons. Have also spent 2 or 3 hours in the corner of campsite bars but would like to avoid that - bars usually pretty dreadful however tarted up and the beer usually not worth drinking. I want to cut free more and can see myself doing this more when touring abroad.


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## Blue Hills (3 Jan 2018)

Aushiker said:


> I would take a look at a Busch & Muller e-Werk for solid device at a "reasonable" price.


Thanks for the advice. Will check it out again. Though it does have lots of switching options which I don't need. I will be using raleighnut's system of charging a powerbank and then recharging from that. That approach seems to avoid lots of complications with neurotic devices switching on and off because they don't like what they are being fed.

Ah raleighnut, i guess that you have (so far) ignored the siren call of the smartphone 

Me too, I use a nice Samsung which i can easily recharge from the anker powerbank. "Smart" touring comms is via a tough as boots 7 inch tab which is pretty good on battery use. It has osmand on it to complement the Garmin running from rechargeable AAs.


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## Blue Hills (3 Jan 2018)

Dogtrousers said:


> Fair enough - I don't have that requirement and yet I went and bought an on-bike charging system which turned out to be pants. This is because I am an idiot. More money than sense, all the gear and no idea etc.


Name and shame dogtrousers. What was that system? What was the problem with it?


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## Tim Hall (3 Jan 2018)

Blue Hills said:


> Sorry if i was sniffy about your suggestion Steve.
> 
> Please report back on this thread or within the touring section on your experiences with it.
> 
> ...


You might already be aware, but just in case you're not, there's a thread on yacf about it, started by one of the people from Igaro.

https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=100575.0


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## Blue Hills (3 Jan 2018)

Tim Hall said:


> You might already be aware, but just in case you're not, there's a thread on yacf about it, started by one of the people from Igaro.
> 
> https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=100575.0


Thanks tim. Had come across it but veered away as it was so long. Will apply myself and read through it.


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## HobbesOnTour (3 Jan 2018)

Hi all,

New member here, so take what I say with a large pannier full of salt! ;-)

I researched all this a couple of years ago, and like the OP was not overly impressed with the cost and bells and whistles of some of the more expensive items. I try to follow the KISS system as much as possible.


In the end I got the Cycle2Charge unit from Germany. 
I didn't want a unit with a built in battery because I figured that if the battery ever failed, then my unit was useless. Furthermore, I couldn't charge it from a wall outlet if the opportunity presented itself. Finally, it was something that was always on the bike and there are times when I want my bike to look as inexpensive as possible.

For waterproofing (when not in use) I simply turn the dome covering the usb port. I like that simplicity.

I am not an expert in electronics or electricity (and nor do I wish to be), I just want something that will work. I'm sure from reading around that there are other units that are more efficient - but if I wanted to be efficient I probably wouldn't tour the way that I do. I bike slowly and like my comfort so I'm not ultralight.

My set-up is this:
Son 28 hub in 26 inch wheel. The cycle2charge unit mounted on my handlebar (size of a big bell), usb cable to my bar bag charging one of 2 small battery packs. My front light is dynamo operated (rear light is battery) which I switch off when charging.

On a daily basis this system will generate enough power to recharge my phone and Wahoo Elemnt with power over. I have tested this several times and am comfortable with it.
I'd average anything from 50km to 100 km per day, typically average speed of 18 kph.
I was pleasantly surprised that on a week long tour in the hilly border areas of Holland/Belgium/Germany in wet weather with lots of climbing (avg speed 13 kph) that this held true.

It will charge my gps/phone as I cycle, but I prefer to use the battery for safety. Varying speeds can mean the phone will start up & shut down frequently, seemingly using the power I had worked hart to put into it. In emergency, it will power my gps, but I tested out a Garmin Touring last year and it went nuts when connected. No problem with the Wahoo, although the location of the connection point (underneath) is not ideal.

I also plan to use the battery packs to charge my kindle and rechargeable batteries for my taillight, headlamp & camera.

Hope this helps

Frank


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## John Peel (3 Jan 2018)

HobbesOnTour said:


> HMy set-up is this:
> Son 28 hub in 26 inch wheel. The cycle2charge unit mounted on my handlebar (size of a big bell), usb cable to my bar bag charging one of 2 small battery packs. My front light is dynamo operated (rear light is battery) which I switch off when charging. Frank



You had me thinking about my wheel size there, as mine are 29", which will obviously make some difference. How much I don't know, but less revolutions to cover the same distance 26" would do. My Son 28 would probably better suited to slow charging a battery bank, I will try that.


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## HobbesOnTour (5 Jan 2018)

John Peel said:


> You had me thinking about my wheel size there, as mine are 29", which will obviously make some difference. How much I don't know, but less revolutions to cover the same distance 26" would do. My Son 28 would probably better suited to slow charging a battery bank, I will try that.


You might be on to something with the wheelsize. Before I had the dynamo I used a solar panel (a fold out 3 panel one). Strapped across the rear rack it worked, but not great (and that was in Spain with lots of sun). However, set it up properly at camp and it worked brilliantly. Mine is a 7 Watt unit (I think), but the latest version is 15 Watt, I believe. Might be a bit heavy if you're looking to cut weight, but may be a useful backup.


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## John Peel (5 Jan 2018)

HobbesOnTour said:


> You might be on to something with the wheelsize. Before I had the dynamo I used a solar panel (a fold out 3 panel one). Strapped across the rear rack it worked, but not great (and that was in Spain with lots of sun). However, set it up properly at camp and it worked brilliantly. Mine is a 7 Watt unit (I think), but the latest version is 15 Watt, I believe. Might be a bit heavy if you're looking to cut weight, but may be a useful backup.



I have looked into Solar and it is a great idea, but your right about weight. To complete my tour will involve 6 flights to countries around the world, and as it stands now I'm looking at a bike box and enough gear to fill 2 suit cases, so not cheap transfers. I would like to be able to get all my gear in one suit case and the pannier bags in the bike box with the bike. In fact, I haven't even looked into how people pack all their gear for a flight, I will do that now. 

But yes wheel size must make a difference. If I switched my front wheel from 29 to 18, I'm in no doubt that this would create power much more easily, but would look really stupid and have me going over the handlebars


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## Blue Hills (5 Jan 2018)

John Peel said:


> But yes wheel size must make a difference. If I switched my front wheel from 29 to 18, I'm in no doubt that this would create power much more easily, but would look really stupid and have me going over the handlebars


 Yes that logic leads inescapably to plans to rollerskate it.

6 flights? Must have a closer look at your route.


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## John Peel (5 Jan 2018)

Blue Hills said:


> Yes that logic leads inescapably to plans to rollerskate it.
> 
> 6 flights? Must have a closer look at your route.



Cyprus - India, Bali - Australia , Australia - New Zealand , New Zealand - Argentina , Bogotá - San Diego , Miam - Liverpool


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## froze (7 Jan 2018)

I just use a solar panel charger I have strapped to the top of my panniers, works great, cheaper then a gen hub, no watts required to make it work. Mine puts out 5 watts which is more then enough for my needs since I don't carry a laptop while touring.


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## Randomnerd (7 Jan 2018)

I’ve got a Sineave Cycles Reactor charger and it’s great for phone and Garmin on the move. Runs from Son hub and give one ampere at 9 mph. Only need 5 mph to charge, and will work with a power bank. Can run dc input up to 52 v.
Speedy, but wiring is clever if you know what you’re doing. Thankfully the chap who fitted it did - I would’ve made a right pigs ear.


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## Blue Hills (7 Jan 2018)

woodenspoons said:


> I’ve got a Sineave Cycles Reactor charger and it’s great for phone and Garmin on the move. Runs from Son hub and give one ampere at 9 mph. Only need 5 mph to charge, and will work with a power bank. Can run dc input up to 52 v.
> Speedy, but wiring is clever if you know what you’re doing. Thankfully the chap who fitted it did - I would’ve made a right pigs ear.


Cripes that is expensive, though the spec does look VERY good. I would be put off spending anywhere near that much by worrying about the ability of the USB port to withstand weather. Do you find it a problem?

Must admit that the more I read about these things I am tempted to wait to see if prices fall/the things get better and just continue with my Anker 21,000 powerbank and maybe get another. I'm very impressed with it.


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## Randomnerd (7 Jan 2018)

Weather hasn’t been a problem so far, and I’ve been through some horrendous rain with it. Got a trade price as part of a bike build; yes it’s expensive relatively. But for off-grid touring and adventuring it’s ideal - there’s no worrying about where to stop to charge up. No carrying other kit either, or bother with power banks. In Uk I run OS maps on phone to navigate and set routes, so a reliable power supply is essential. I’ve run a fully charged iPhone all day on OS maps and, with it plugged in, phone was 95% charged at end of event. Have noticed some depletion in charge rate of course when using lights which are wired in to the hub too, but that hasn’t proved problematic yet. The Igaro is cheaper, but much bulkier. I’ve no experience with other systems, so I can’t say this is better.


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## Blue Hills (10 Feb 2018)

froze said:


> I just use a solar panel charger I have strapped to the top of my panniers, works great, cheaper then a gen hub, no watts required to make it work. Mine puts out 5 watts which is more then enough for my needs since I don't carry a laptop while touring.


Can I ask which one?


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## aegis (19 Feb 2018)

B & M do two different models of chargers btw.

The original is the e-Werk which doesn't have a cache battery built in but has the advantage of variable output so you can charge 9v devices like some cameras.

The cheaper USBWerk only outputs USB friendly 5v. It has a very small cache battery in it which it charges first before supplying to the external device. Your first 5-10 minutes or so charges the cache battery. The cache battery is useful for devices where they pop an alert up on the screen every time you connect/disconnect a charger. I used to have a different charger without the cache and I'd be endlessly pressing OK on my phone screen at every junction or when pedalling slower than required to charge. The cache battery solves that issue. It still works even with a dead cache battery. I'm on my second USBWerk having killed the first in cold weather after about 3-4 years and found this out by experience.

If you're just using the device to charge a power pack to charge your phone later, you don't need a cache battery. Be aware some external power packs do not charge unless you press a button to start charging. Some also allow you to charge the powerpack at the same time as discharging it; in effect acting as a big cache battery.

If you do have a camera that needs a 9v charger, there are third party battery chargers that run off USB supplies. I have one for my Olympus camera. It's also smaller than the Olympus official charger which is a bonus.

I don't have a Garmin as I just use my phone and Komoot but from what I gather with some Garmins they think they have been attached to a PC if you attach them to a powerpack that puts out a voltage over the two data pins (the middle two) in the USB socket. Many powerbanks do this because Apple stupidly decided that it wouldn't follow the USB charging standard. Apple USB chargers output different voltages over the data pins to tell the iPhone/iPod/iPad if the charger is a low of high power charger. In this case, get a cable which shorts the two middle data pins or has a resistor across them and the garmin will not see a voltage across the data pins and assume it is connected to a dumb charger.

In theory, charging the device directly is the more efficient way of charging. If you're charging a powerpack you're going from 6v AC to 5v USB DC to 3.7v DC (in the cells in the powerpack) and then back to 5v USB when charging the device later which probably has a 3.7v battery in it. All those conversions suck efficiency. In practice, it probably doesn't matter over the course of a day's cycling.

Personally, I find the USBWerk reliable and predictable. The one complaint might be that it never outputs more than 1A no matter how fast you cycle where some of the newer devices do. But, they're about £50 from Germany so quite a bit cheaper than the others.


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## Blue Hills (20 Feb 2018)

Thanks for that detailed reply aegis. I didn't know the usb werk only outputted 1A? Ewerk the same? Anyone know if an improved model might be on the way?

I suppose as important as the output is the speed you need to be going to get a charge, especially when heavily loaded possibly over challenging terrain. And the thought of having to pedal pedal harder than you feel like just to get a charge might spoil a tour. 

So can I ask aegis how fast you need to be going to charge?

Do the B&M units output enough power reliably to allow you to go off power lines for a week or two or do you think that you will need occasional/regular recourse to a power socket?

Apologies for all the questions


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## psmiffy (20 Feb 2018)

Blue Hills said:


> Do the B&M units output enough power reliably to allow you to go off power lines for a week or two or do you think that you will need occasional/regular recourse to a power socket?



I use a B&M USB-werk - its function is primarily to charge the Lion batteries for my camera - which it does quite happily - always have a charged one - after that I charge a power bank - typically once a week i buy electricity (usually <€4.00/night) or quite often these days it tends to come with the pitch when i'm in Europe - to my mind tho the big advantage of the dynamo is the light - while mid-summer night cycling is not something that happens very often and I have a rule about cycling in the dark (never works out) - early and late doors having a good light so that i'm able to get to *that *campsite without stress is a godsend


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## Blue Hills (20 Feb 2018)

psmiffy said:


> I use a B&M USB-werk - its function is primarily to charge the Lion batteries for my camera - which it does quite happily - always have a charged one - after that I charge a power bank - typically once a week i buy electricity (usually <€4.00/night) or quite often these days it tends to come with the pitch when i'm in Europe - to my mind tho the big advantage of the dynamo is the light - while mid-summer night cycling is not something that happens very often and I have a  rule about cycling in the dark (never works out) - early and late doors having a good light so that i'm able to get to *that *campsite without stress is a godsend


to clarify smiffy - you keep the powerbank charged up via the dynamo or do you rely on your weekly hook-ups for that?


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## Randomnerd (20 Feb 2018)

Just to confuse you, here's another offering through SJS. Looks interesting https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/dynamos/ullman-power-station-v4-usb-dynamo-powered-charging-device/


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## psmiffy (20 Feb 2018)

Blue Hills said:


> you keep the powerbank charged up via the dynamo or do you rely on your weekly hook-ups for that?



Mainly the latter


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## Blue Hills (20 Feb 2018)

psmiffy said:


> Mainly the latter


mm - thanks for the reply but that maybe makes the werk sound not so good?


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## psmiffy (20 Feb 2018)

Blue Hills said:


> but that maybe makes the werk sound not so good?



not so good as what? - I think these things are good for say - charging a phone - does my 7" tablet OK - but you have to have to have a bit of realism - prioritise what you want charged - simple charging dynamics of most USB devices limits you - in three months last year i didnt run out of electricity in what i consider to be my core devices - camera, tablet, mifi dongle - GPS doesnt count as it will run off AA - but back to my original comment having a very good light was a very big plus


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## aegis (20 Feb 2018)

Blue Hills said:


> Thanks for that detailed reply aegis. I didn't know the usb werk only outputted 1A? Ewerk the same? Anyone know if an improved model might be on the way?



The eWerk can output 1.5A. I've not used an eWerk. IMHO 1.5A isn't really useful. You're not likely to reach it at touring speeds unless you've a long downhill. It's this which annoys me about the USBWerk. I've probably spent the best part of the day riding up a mountain with it generating 200mA but then coasting down the other side it stops at 1A. It's only a small annoyance. But, I know it could be generating more!



Blue Hills said:


> I suppose as important as the output is the speed you need to be going to get a charge, especially when heavily loaded possibly over challenging terrain. And the thought of having to pedal pedal harder than you feel like just to get a charge might spoil a tour.
> 
> So can I ask aegis how fast you need to be going to charge?



Bear in mind that hub dynamos output 6v 3W at around 15kmph. That's 500mA. It varies slightly per brand but not much as the German standard says they have to reach 95% of output at 15kmh. The hubs are current limited. What happens when you go faster is the voltage increases.

To get 1A out of the hub you'll need to be doing north of 25-30kmh. 



Blue Hills said:


> Do the B&M units output enough power reliably to allow you to go off power lines for a week or two or do you think that you will need occasional/regular recourse to a power socket?



That all depends on how much electronic guff you're carrying, how much riding per day and how hilly.

Generally I've got an Android smartphone attached on my bars for GPS and music in constant use. GPS eats batteries in phones. On a flat day, It's charged up a bit past lunchtime. (4 hours ish). I'll then switch to charging the powerpack for a bit perhaps and then back to the phone for a few hours. I also have an 8" tablet and a 4/3rds DSLR with me which I charge from a powerpack in the evening. Those aren't on all the time so how long they last depends on your use pattern. The tablet does 10 hours out of it's built in battery (4400maH I think) so to recharge that it would "cost" over a day's worth of cycling.

Generally, 8-10 hours a day cycling and I'm power neutral and can keep that going indefinitely.

However, if miserable weather makes me resort to a hotel, everything gets charged up. If I'm sat at a cafe, I'll ask if they don't mind me plugging in a phone charger and I have been known to sit next to a vending machine or two.


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