# PCSO fining powers



## srw (11 Dec 2013)

http://www.bikebiz.com/news/read/pc...cyclists-without-lights-and-reflectors/015786

Social media seems to be getting agitated about the prospect of numpty PCSOs stopping and fining cyclists without pedal reflectors. My suspicions are:
(a) That the PCSO law is an exact transposition of the current law that enables police to stop and fine cyclists without lights and reflectors;
(b) That the lack of fines given by police for riding without pedal reflectors means that there won't be an epidemic of PCSO fines;
(c) That it will be a very brave Chief Constable indeed who supports fining cyclists for not having pedal reflectors.

Am I being too sanguine?


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## cosmicbike (11 Dec 2013)

They're more likely to try and fine you for not wearing HiViz and a helmet


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## oldstrath (11 Dec 2013)

srw said:


> http://www.bikebiz.com/news/read/pc...cyclists-without-lights-and-reflectors/015786
> 
> Social media seems to be getting agitated about the prospect of numpty PCSOs stopping and fining cyclists without pedal reflectors. My suspicions are:
> (a) That the PCSO law is an exact transposition of the current law that enables police to stop and fine cyclists without lights and reflectors;
> ...


You're probably right, but it gives the fools who lead us another distraction from doing something about the people who actually cause most of the deaths on our roads. Is a pedal reflector really going to drag some numpty's attention away from his texting, his sandwich, and his job worries?


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## Davidc (11 Dec 2013)

srw said:


> http://www.bikebiz.com/news/read/pc...cyclists-without-lights-and-reflectors/015786
> 
> Social media seems to be getting agitated about the prospect of numpty PCSOs stopping and fining cyclists without pedal reflectors. My suspicions are:
> (a) That the PCSO law is an exact transposition of the current law that enables police to stop and fine cyclists without lights and reflectors;
> ...



I don't think you are, but I reserve the right to change my mind if and when the first fine happens!

What wouldn't surprise me would be to see this used in conjunction with lack of lights to up the severity of that.


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## Cubist (11 Dec 2013)

My guess is tht this is a complete non story whipped up to cause a "woe is us" reaction from the poor beleaguered cyclists. so its an added power for PCSOs, sfw? There is no declared intent for them all to go out and enforce it. When were any of you last searched for fireworks?


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## Ern1e (11 Dec 2013)

" When were any of you last searched for fireworks?"[/quote]
If my memeory is still working correctly it was about 45 years ago or was that 46 uhm I shall just pop of for a wee while and ponder on it !


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## MontyVeda (11 Dec 2013)

I think I'll err on the side of caution and simply fit pedal reflectors that comply with the law not stop should a PCSO try to 'have a chat'.


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## ianrauk (11 Dec 2013)

MontyVeda said:


> I think I'll err on the side of caution and simply fit pedal reflectors that comply with the law not stop should a PCSO try to 'have a chat'.




'twas what I did last week. Got waved to stop but just shouted at him "Sorry, Late for work!" and cruised on by..


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## byegad (11 Dec 2013)

If it's not dark you don't need 'em. Anyone want to run a sweep on how long before a PCSO tries to book someone in broad daylight?


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## srw (12 Dec 2013)

Ahem. To come back to my original questions - how much are the existing police powers used? Is the PCSO law just a transposition of the PC law?

Without that information we're just speculating.

I hesitate to do this, but.... Paging @User


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## Cubist (12 Dec 2013)

srw said:


> Ahem. To come back to my original questions - how much are the existing police powers used? Is the PCSO law just a transposition of the PC law?
> 
> Without that information we're just speculating.
> 
> I hesitate to do this, but.... Paging @User


I answered your question. OK, my answer included a reference to other powers not used frequently by pcsos, but by the same token di you know of any motorist who has been fined for having no water in their washer bottle?

To spell it out, this has been whipped up by bikebiz following the events of the last few weeks. It's given everyone an opportunity to wring their hands and mock pcsos through anecdotal nonsense, and I've read several forums where people are scrambling to comply with the requirement in case the full weight of the authorities is visited upon them. It's bolloxks.


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## byegad (12 Dec 2013)

That's a new one on me. I'm sure the Highway Code mentions using your lights in daylight fog 'If you have them fitted' and I'm equaly sure Chris Juden of the CTC when asked about pedal reflectors said you only needed them at night. And here's another source. http://ukcyclerules.com/2010/11/08/bike-lights-and-reflectors-the-basics/


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## porteous (12 Dec 2013)

A clear guide to current lighting/reflector law is given here:

http://www.ctc.org.uk/cyclists-library/regulations/lighting-regulations

PCSOs have two sorts of powers. The first is "Standard powers" held by all PCSOs ( The first one of which concerns fixed penalty notices for riding cycles on the pavement), and "Discretionary powers" delegated by the Chief Constable of the police authority area in which the PCSO serves. A complete list of both sorts is here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/117572/pcso-powers.pdf

The power to stop members of the public is reasonably implied in many of these powers.
All else can be usefully classified as "mere corroborative detail, designed to add verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative" * Unless you are a lawyer. Lawyers make their money out of people that are convinced the law is as they think in should be, and not as it is.

(All my bikes were manufactured prior to Oct 1990, so I don't need pedal reflectors. I rely on my trusty acetylene headlight, rear oil lamp and man with a red flag walking in front. Actually I bless the man that invented modern high intensity LED lighting every time its gloomy, cos even in daylight they are difficult to miss, unlike the pathetic 2.5w 6v bulbs that were the best you could get in the 50s)

Evening All

*_ Poobah, Lord High Everything Else. The Mikado_


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## byegad (12 Dec 2013)

As a recumbent rider I await being stopped for no pedal reflectors at night, short of an invisibility cloak for me and several parts of my trikes there isn't a hope in Hades that a pedal reflector can be seen from behind, I suppose it is possible for me to fit a forward facing one angled to be seen, but then the front panniers and fairing will obscure them on the Kettwiesel anyway! I do carry extra lights, in fact the trikes are usually lit up like a Xmas tree at night, but I imagine a PCSO will not care about that!


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## Alun (12 Dec 2013)

byegad said:


> As a recumbent rider I await being stopped for no pedal reflectors at night, short of an invisibility cloak for me and several parts of my trikes there isn't a hope in Hades that a pedal reflector can be seen from behind, I suppose it is possible for me to fit a forward facing one angled to be seen, but then the front panniers and fairing will obscure them on the Kettwiesel anyway! I do carry extra lights, in fact the trikes are usually lit up like a Xmas tree at night, but I imagine a PCSO will not care about that!


The reflectors have to be visible to the front and rear of each pedal, not from the front and rear of the cycle, ie they have to be fitted and you have to be able to see that they are fitted. Happy to help!
_Pedal Reflectors: Four are required, coloured amber and marked BS6102/2 (or equivalent), positioned so that *one is plainly visible to the front and another to the rear of each pedal.*_


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## StuartG (12 Dec 2013)

"Yes constable, but my bike was manufactured before 1990". I mean many of our bikes are composed of components arranged and rearranged over decades. And, unlike motor vehicles being first registered by DVLA there is no recorded date for bicycles. Would CPS really want to spend time and money fighting that?

AFAIK the law was actually aimed at ensuring bikes came on to the market with the required attachments and that would be the most likely area of enforcement. Have they ever tried to stop the farce of shops giving a bike in one hand and the pedals in the other to try and avoid the law?


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## Alun (12 Dec 2013)

I've had this bike for 25 years, it's had 3 new frames and 5 new wheels!


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## youngoldbloke (12 Dec 2013)

User said:


> The advice from CTC that "Lights (and reflectors) are required on a pedal cycle only between sunset and sunrise." is factually incorrect. The RVLR require them to be fitted at all times (see Regulation 18 and Schedule 1 Table III) but used between sunset and sunrise (Regulation 24).


BUT ...... ?
*The Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989*
*You are here:*

1989 No. 1796
PART I
Regulation 4
(3) Nothing in these Regulations shall require any lamp or reflector to be *fitted *between sunrise and sunset to–

(a)a vehicle not fitted with any front or rear position lamp,

(b)an incomplete vehicle proceeding to a works for completion,

*(c)a pedal cycle*,

(d)a pedestrian-controlled vehicle,

(e)a horse-drawn vehicle,

(f)a vehicle drawn or propelled by hand, or

(g)a combat vehicle.

- bit confusing, isn't it?


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## Flying Dodo (12 Dec 2013)

Alun said:


> The reflectors have to be visible to the front and rear of each pedal, not from the front and rear of the cycle, ie they have to be fitted and you have to be able to see that they are fitted. Happy to help!
> _Pedal Reflectors: Four are required, coloured amber and marked BS6102/2 (or equivalent), positioned so that *one is plainly visible to the front and another to the rear of each pedal.*_



There are some pedals where they end up being completely covered by the shoes, such as Speedplay Light Action. I wonder how they'd look at those, if by some miracle, someone tried to stop you.


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## youngoldbloke (13 Dec 2013)

User said:


> Yep - as Regulation 18 says they shall be fitted and there is no exemption in the relevant table,


But Part 1 regulation 4 specifically exempts pedal cycles, and Regulation 18 states " (1) _Save as_ provided in the foregoing provisions of these Regulations ...." - I thought 'save as' meant 'except' or 'with the exception of''? Please explain.


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## byegad (13 Dec 2013)

Alun said:


> The reflectors have to be visible to the front and rear of each pedal, not from the front and rear of the cycle, ie they have to be fitted and you have to be able to see that they are fitted. Happy to help!
> _Pedal Reflectors: Four are required, coloured amber and marked BS6102/2 (or equivalent), positioned so that *one is plainly visible to the front and another to the rear of each pedal.*_


And fitted in the traditional position the 'front' one will be visible to passing aircraft and UFOs and the 'rear' to earthworms and beetles I pass over. So not visible front and rear, The rear one will need to reflect light back through my ample bum, the seat back and parts of the rear of the trike. Any suggestions as to how to successfully do this are likely to win the Nobel Prize for Extreme Cleverness.


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## Recycle (13 Dec 2013)

Alun said:


> _Pedal Reflectors: Four are required, coloured amber and marked BS6102/2 (or equivalent), positioned so that *one is plainly visible to the front and another to the rear of each pedal.*_


That's a good one. It may be worth the entertainment value just to see how much court time can be occupied debating which part of the pedal is front and which is rear where on a recumbent the foot mostly points to the sky.

If this turns out to be an issue - which I doubt - cyclists can easily sabotage by en-mass opting not to pay the fine and have their day in court. The court time and expense consumed for a trivial issue that can't demonstrate any logical purpose would force a rethink. That is unless UKIP is in charge...


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## Mr Celine (13 Dec 2013)

youngoldbloke said:


> BUT ...... ?
> *The Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989*
> 
> Regulation 4
> ...



Looks crystal clear to me. What part of 'nothing in these regulations shall require any lamp or reflector to be fitted between sunrise and sunset to a pedal cycle' are people having difficulty with?


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## youngoldbloke (14 Dec 2013)

Mr Celine said:


> Looks crystal clear to me. What part of 'nothing in these regulations shall require any lamp or reflector to be fitted between sunrise and sunset to a pedal cycle' are people having difficulty with?


I was not confused until reading User's posts. If you read through the posts you will see I was replying to his comments concerning Regulation 18 etc. He still hasn't explained his interpretation.


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## Vikeonabike (16 Dec 2013)

Bearing in mind, very few cyclists get fined for riding without lights. This is mainly due to officers being to busy to spend 15 minutes required to hand out tickets.
PCSO's may have a little more time on their hands. However I would suggest that the first cyclist to pick up a fine for having no reflectors on their bike will have been stopped for something else and failed the "Attitude Test" in a major way!


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## benb (16 Dec 2013)

The law is out of date, and needs updating. See also the law about legally entering an ASZ.

I have SPDs with no way of fitting a reflector, but I am lit up like a Christmas tree and my shoes have reflective areas on the heels.
So although I am breaking the letter of the law, I am complying with the spirit of it.

Given that some PCSOs (Police Constable Shaped Objects. Haha!) seem to be over-zealous with trying to issue fines for things that aren't even offences, I do worry that they will dish out unjust fines.


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## Vikeonabike (16 Dec 2013)

Ben most constabularies will offer guidelines for the issuing of fines for this. I will get on the case and see if I can get Cambridgeshire to start the ball rolling!


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## benb (16 Dec 2013)

Vikeonabike said:


> Ben most constabularies will offer guidelines for the issuing of fines for this. I will get on the case and see if I can get Cambridgeshire to start the ball rolling!



Thanks. I might drop Surrey an email.


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## green1 (17 Dec 2013)

Alun said:


> I've had this bike for 25 years, it's had 3 new frames and 5 new wheels!


Trigger!


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## Boothy (12 Jan 2014)

Is it a worry that, should you be hit by a car, and it is totally the drivers fault, and the damage to either you or the bike is significant enough that the insurance company try and fight it, the lack of reflectors means that legally you shouldn't be on the road and so you lose the case?? Despite the accident being totally the drivers fault, and you being lit up like a Christmas tree, you lose the case and the medical costs, or new bike costs now have to be covered by yourself and the driver of the car gets off scot free?


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## benb (13 Jan 2014)

This legislation has been rejected by the Lords.
They're good for something then!


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## Peter Armstrong (13 Jan 2014)

What about just putting some sticky reflectors on your bike and pedals?


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## doug (13 Jan 2014)

Peter Armstrong said:


> What about just putting some sticky reflectors on your bike and pedals?



That is what I have done on my SPDs on the commute bike

Strictly speaking I think reflectors need to be BS (or EN) compliant, however I doubt a PCSO would check the reflectors are kite marked at the road side.


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## StuartG (15 Jan 2014)

Just get someone to professionally imprint "Handbuilt in 1980" on the frame. Or if you can't afford this then distress it to the same effect. It would then be up to the copper to show it wasn't.


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## Vikeonabike (25 Feb 2014)

Turns out that it never got through parliament so PCSO's will not be getting this power...


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## StuartG (26 Feb 2014)

Vikeonabike said:


> Turns out that it never got through parliament so PCSO's will not be getting this power...


Oh, another 5 minutes of life totally wasted posting plus another 5 minutes due to elevated blood pressure. Who do I sue?


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## StuartG (26 Feb 2014)

2950434 said:


> If you are prepared to settle out of court, I'll buy you a pint.


Plus one for my lawyer?


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## spen666 (26 Feb 2014)

StuartG said:


> Plus one for my lawyer?


 can you get pints of weedkiller?


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## spen666 (26 Feb 2014)

2950645 said:


> Not all lawyers are bad people.


 I think you got that the wrong way round


It should read



"Not *all* bad people are lawyers"


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## StuartG (26 Feb 2014)

spen666 said:


> "Not *all* bad people are lawyers"


You get the Venn diagrams, I'll get the crisps ...


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## spen666 (26 Feb 2014)

StuartG said:


> You get the Venn diagrams, I'll get the crisps ...


 

Do I confess to being a lawyer?


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## StuartG (26 Feb 2014)

spen666 said:


> Do I confess to being a lawyer?


Just to snaffle Ade's pint? Typical!


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## spen666 (26 Feb 2014)

StuartG said:


> Just to snaffle Ade's pint? Typical!


I did say us lawyers were bad people

Paging @Patrick Stevens for confirmation


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## spen666 (26 Feb 2014)

2950931 said:


> Am I buying for him as well now?


 

I'd not trust him - he'd drink the pint, then sue you for causing him alcohol poisioning and demand you pay him a huge sum in damages


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## spen666 (26 Feb 2014)

2951228 said:


> That's nothing, compared to the warning he gave me about you.


Yes, but you can't trust a word @Patrick Stevens says as he is a lawyer and has devoted his professional career to avoiding the truth (like all lawyers).


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