# Old Whistle Found While Metal Detecting



## HMS_Dave (5 Sep 2020)

I was out for the very first time with my son and his metal detector in the garden of his Grandma's house and the very first signal and the very first dig, he finds an old whistle. It was about 8-9 inches down and has been in there at least 40 years, as that is how long his Grandma has lived there. It has several markings on it which ive managed to find a bit of info about. It has L&N.W.R stamped on the side, which we have pinned down to the now defunct London and North Western Railway (1846-1922).






With the other images i will upload, i believe i have a date of about 1890 - 1922. As you will also see it has an address.










The top bit of faded words say The Thunderer Patent. Which i believe "The Thunderer" to be the name of the Whistle.






This is the bit i am unsure of. P.Way i believe refers to Permanent Way. Im not a train buff so i don't know, i think it is a standard used for the width of the tracks?

As for the 875, i have a feeling this relates to the locomotive itself. Using this info https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LNWR_Precursor_Tank_Class

I find this fascinating. Are there any train guru's out there who can shed anymore light onto this? I have emailed the LNWR Society but if anybody can add to this i would be very much grateful... My son is quite excited by this find. Beats finding an old rusty nail that is for sure, which was all we were expecting!

Cheers.


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## classic33 (6 Sep 2020)

Stick my neck out and say 1910-1912

McPherson was only the retailer, not the manufacturer.

http://www.whistlemuseum.com/2017/12/18/black-co-whistle-maker-glasgow-history-whistles-a-strauss/

Is the pea still in it?


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## HMS_Dave (6 Sep 2020)

classic33 said:


> Stick my neck out and say 1910-1912
> 
> McPherson was only the retailer, not the manufacturer.
> 
> ...


Yes believe it or not it is!

I think it may have been made by J. Hudson & Co. of Birmingham, who are still going i believe. I agree i have a feeling its around the 1910's.


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## Reynard (6 Sep 2020)

Thunderers are still made today.

You'll hear one in action every time you watch a football match. 

Nice little find, btw.  IMHO the best bit about history is doing the research and putting together the backstory of an item.


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## HMS_Dave (6 Sep 2020)

Reynard said:


> Thunderers are still made today.
> 
> You'll hear one in action every time you watch a football match.
> 
> Nice little find, btw.  IMHO the best bit about history is doing the research and putting together the backstory of an item.



My son would love to have it in a frame with a picture of the original locomotive. That of course may not be possible but its a great story if it is.


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## Reynard (6 Sep 2020)

With luck there's bound to be something out there somewhere, whether it's a photo (pushing it possibly, given the dates) or more likely an engraving / print. A good place to look for hardcopy resources might be Simon Lewis Transport Books - mainly cars, but I know he stocks train stuff as well.

Alas, on the train side of things I'm of no use.


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## classic33 (6 Sep 2020)

HMS_Dave said:


> My son would love to have it in a frame with a picture of the original locomotive. That of course may not be possible but its a great story if it is.


It's a guards whistle, so I don't think it would be tied to an individual locomotive.

I'd wait and see what the response to your e-mail is. You were correct on the permant way part it seems.


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## Reynard (6 Sep 2020)

More likely an issue or parts number then, if not tied to a particular engine.

But as @classic33 says, wait for a reply. In my experience, railway buffs are more than happy to share their info with a willing audience.


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## HMS_Dave (6 Sep 2020)

Indeed. Either way, i will do something like i said. Maybe a period and line correct picture with the whistle. Certainly has a story to tell.


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## Reynard (6 Sep 2020)

Vintage postcards might be worth looking up, as the Edwardians tended to send rather a lot of them, and there were all sorts of subject matters available, including travel / railway. Unless a card is particularly rare, they are pretty inexpensive.


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## classic33 (6 Sep 2020)

HMS_Dave said:


> Indeed. Either way, i will do something like i said. Maybe a period and line correct picture with the whistle. Certainly has a story to tell.


Possible the people you've contacted have a picture of 875
http://www.lnwrs.org.uk/Photographs/PhotoDetails.php?Cltn=LNWRS&Pnum=1970#


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## dave r (6 Sep 2020)

Thats a superb find.


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## raleighnut (6 Sep 2020)

Cool


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## tom73 (6 Sep 2020)

What a great find and a great way to get into him into social history. Which way more interesting than most of the stuff you they make you learn at school. 
Hodson are still very much still going and still make Thunderers the same way. A few ago one train company went back to using them. They found it improved train times. So much so are now widely used by most of the others. 
Maybe contact them and see what information they have if nothing else it may help to confirm you're thinking.


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## Pale Rider (6 Sep 2020)

classic33 said:


> Is the pea still in it?



Yeah, does the ruddy thing still whistle?

Great find - well done.


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## Cycleops (6 Sep 2020)

Due to the marking P WAY or permanent way as you rightly say it would have been used by a lookout for a gang repairing the track who would use it to warn in the event of an approaching train.


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## Oldhippy (6 Sep 2020)

Awesome find for the first try, hopefully it will spur your son on to discovery of his local and wider environment and how we came to be where we are.


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## HMS_Dave (6 Sep 2020)

Pale Rider said:


> Yeah, does the ruddy thing still whistle?
> 
> Great find - well done.


It tries to whistle, but it's not quite there. Sadly.


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## HMS_Dave (6 Sep 2020)

Thanks everyone for your kind words. @tom73 Absolutely. It's quite difficult for kids and teenagers these days to save their money. It seems no matter where they go, they're encouraged to spend it on guff, but he managed to save his birthday money and his pocket money up to buy a Metal Detector and im really proud of him, its something he's wanted. We've been doing the research together and he has a huge interest in the history. More so than i thought! I have to say im quite a fan of it now!


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## Cycleops (6 Sep 2020)

Oldhippy said:


> Awesome find for the first try, hopefully it will spur your son on to discovery of his local and wider environment and how we came to be where we are.


You mean a wheel from a penny farthing


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## Oldhippy (6 Sep 2020)

I have a mate who metal detects, I love history myself and am going to join him on his exploits. I have always fancied it.


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## Reynard (6 Sep 2020)

As an interesting aside, in the series of Antiques Road Trip that they're currently showing (repeating), there is actually a small 5 minute-ish feature on the history of whistles:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000d2nb/antiques-road-trip-series-20-episode-2

21:45 in.


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## midlife (6 Sep 2020)

Slightly off topic but I guess you have watched "The Detectorists"? Great series with humour that hits the gentler spot


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## stoatsngroats (6 Sep 2020)

I would concur with @Cycleops regarding the P Way marking, rather than a guards whistle. The number may indicate that it would be a personal issue to someone, who would have it as their own equipment.
It might be possible to contact someone to see if there’s a record of it being issued, but whom the someone is I couldn’t say.


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## Badger_Boom (6 Sep 2020)

You could try looking up the census to see if any previous residents are recorded as working on the railways.


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## classic33 (6 Sep 2020)

Badger_Boom said:


> You could try looking up the census to see if any previous residents are recorded as working on the railways.


There's streets that were there, no longer there. Add in streets being renamed and it may be impossible.

The address difference gives a date of 1909 for the whistle.


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## Reynard (6 Sep 2020)

classic33 said:


> There's streets that were there, no longer there. Add in streets being renamed and it may be impossible.



That's easily checked. Well, relatively. Most local authorities hold maps in their archives going back to the early 1800's. Well, I know mine has, and they're available online. It's easy enough to use them in sequence to work backwards in time. It's amazing to see how land use changes over the years.

Checking the census is a good idea. Another angle to investigate is the railway itself. Is / was there a railway line nearby? Or a depot? Maybe not current, but perhaps part of the Beeching cuts.

I'll say it again, but it's amazing how one small and relatively mundane object can just open up history in a totally different way to a school textbook. And it's much more engaging. Far better than learning dates by rote and what the Romans Did For Us.


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## classic33 (6 Sep 2020)

Reynard said:


> That's easily checked. Well, relatively. Most local authorities hold maps in their archives going back to the early 1800's. Well, I know mine has, and they're available online. It's easy enough to use them in sequence to work backwards in time. It's amazing to see how land use changes over the years.
> 
> Checking the census is a good idea. Another angle to investigate is the railway itself. Is / was there a railway line nearby? Or a depot? Maybe not current, but perhaps part of the Beeching cuts.
> 
> I'll say it again, but it's amazing how one small and relatively mundane object can just open up history in a totally different way to a school textbook. And it's much more engaging. Far better than learning dates by rote and what the Romans Did For Us.


Check https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/


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## HMS_Dave (6 Sep 2020)

Reynard said:


> As an interesting aside, in the series of Antiques Road Trip that they're currently showing (repeating), there is actually a small 5 minute-ish feature on the history of whistles:
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000d2nb/antiques-road-trip-series-20-episode-2
> 
> 21:45 in.


Fantastic thanks for that, just watched it.


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## HMS_Dave (6 Sep 2020)

I've done a bit of _digging _and the area it was found in had a scrapyard near by many years ago according the map surveys this was in the 1920's/30's. I don't think that would have any significance here. Before the houses were built it was a fields, but the street (or lane as it may have been then) was still there in the 1800's. There is a train station of the old LNWR about a mile away. It is still used today, that is Lichfield Trent Valley. My pure guess at this point would be that a previous occupant worked for the LNWR and perhaps had a grandchild who played with it and dropped it, perhaps lost until now. Although that is one of many possibilities. We hope i can uncover such intricate detail about it. I've sent a few emails away and hopefully can shed more light onto it.


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## Reynard (6 Sep 2020)

I think the simplest explanation then is that it must've fallen out of the pocket of someone working at the station as they walked to / from work.

A lot of Victorian / Edwardian companies, be it railway, manufacturing etc provided housing for employees. A bit like Bournville or Saltaire, though not always quite so poncy. Although in the timeframe we're talking about L&NWR were one of the most prosperous companies in Britain.


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## HMS_Dave (7 Sep 2020)

I had a response today from the LNWR society. I'll copy some of the text from the mail.

"I hope that the following information is helpful. You are quite correct that the markings are for a whistle used by the LNW Railway. Quite how it got into a garden in Lichfield is anybody's guess, although Lichfield is on the old LNWR main line. The company was in existence from 1846 to the end of 1922 when it was amalgamated into the new London Midland and Scottish Railway ('LMS'). By the end of the nineteenth century it was regarded as the largest joint stock company in the world and was very successful.

The other marking on the whistle shows that it was used by the permanent way department, which looked after all the trackwork. The Company was careful about all its property and tended to label everything. The LNWR prided itself on having the best permanent way and advertised its fast trains to Scotland as running on 'dustless tracks'. I have seen a postcard issued by the Company which was a photograph of a permanent way team working on the tracks in about 1905."

As it appears it was likely used by a track worker so would be difficult to pin down to a specific person im sure. I will investigate previous occupants of the property for which it was found to see if that can bring up a link. So the plan now is to frame it with a picture of permanent way workers with a little bit of information about it and present it to my lad.

It's a little bit of history of our own we can share.


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## uphillstruggler (11 Sep 2020)

HMS_Dave said:


> I had a response today from the LNWR society. I'll copy some of the text from the mail.
> 
> "I hope that the following information is helpful. You are quite correct that the markings are for a whistle used by the LNW Railway. Quite how it got into a garden in Lichfield is anybody's guess, although Lichfield is on the old LNWR main line. The company was in existence from 1846 to the end of 1922 when it was amalgamated into the new London Midland and Scottish Railway ('LMS'). By the end of the nineteenth century it was regarded as the largest joint stock company in the world and was very successful.
> 
> ...



this is a great story, you should be proud of your son for saving money and buying something that has probably more than proved its worth. as mentioned up thread, you just wouldnt get this level of involvement from a text book.

best of luck finding more out about this item (i am jealous as i worked for the S and T many moons ago and wish i still had my bits a pieces) and hopefully more items in the future.

EDIT: you seem to have had some luck with getting information but if you reach a dead end here, you could also try the National Railway Museum in York. they have an extensive archive of material and it is very well looked after, you never know.


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## HMS_Dave (11 Sep 2020)

uphillstruggler said:


> this is a great story, you should be proud of your son for saving money and buying something that has probably more than proved its worth. as mentioned up thread, you just wouldnt get this level of involvement from a text book.
> 
> best of luck finding more out about this item (i am jealous as i worked for the S and T many moons ago and wish i still had my bits a pieces) and hopefully more items in the future.


Thanks. I agree. Reading history can be boring, living it is far more exciting and engaging for a child. We plan to do more of this. Looking at getting permissions for some farm land and perhaps join a club to hopefully build on the interest for him. Who knows what's buried out there?


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## uphillstruggler (11 Sep 2020)

HMS_Dave said:


> Thanks. I agree. Reading history can be boring, living it is far more exciting and engaging for a child. We plan to do more of this. Looking at getting permissions for some farm land and perhaps join a club to hopefully build on the interest for him. Who knows what's buried out there?



exactly, its a good way to encourage research/learning too.

as someone said up thread, there are maps from bygone days that are available to help you pinpoint an area that may throw up more recent treasure/ephemera rather than roman gold

im looking forward to more of your sons finds. both material and research.

enjoy


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