# 755,000 unlicensed vehicles last year



## Rooster1 (16 Nov 2017)

I'm not very good with stats but looks like the demise of the tax disc has led to a tripling of the number of unlicensed vehicles. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42009111


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## Drago (16 Nov 2017)

I read elsewhere that it was scrapped to save a meagre £10 million a year in administrating the system....

...but has cost over £100 mill in lost revenue.

So it was a good move and has saved the country a fortune, by the simple expedient that they no longer need waste money on a tax disc. The less honest folk have no easy means by which they can be spotted.


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## classic33 (16 Nov 2017)

ANPR app for smartphones.

One such app.
http://www.anpr.hu/matrix_pocket_android/


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## FishFright (16 Nov 2017)

Drago said:


> I read elsewhere that it was scrapped to save a meagre £10 million a year in administrating the system....
> 
> ...but has cost over £100 mill in lost revenue.
> 
> So it was a good move and has saved the country a fortune, by the simple expedient that they no longer need waste money on a tax disc. The less honest folk have no easy means by which they can be spotted.



Rather like the rest of the not thought out cuts


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## flake99please (16 Nov 2017)

I look forward to mentioning this the next time one of those law abiding motorists decides to lecture me on the need for a cycle license/number plate/insurance/etc, etc.

Source


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## Phaeton (16 Nov 2017)

Put it on fuel, nobody can dodge it then


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## Tin Pot (16 Nov 2017)

Phaeton said:


> Put it on fuel, nobody can dodge it then


Well, you say that...


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## screenman (16 Nov 2017)

Phaeton said:


> Put it on fuel, nobody can dodge it then



If they do that I will have to get a bike.


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## classic33 (16 Nov 2017)

screenman said:


> If they do that I will have to get a bike.


Electric?


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## Globalti (16 Nov 2017)

I expect this figure roughly mirrors the figure for uninsured vehicles. There are plenty of people who simply think the law doesn't apply to them.


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## RichK (17 Nov 2017)

Globalti said:


> I expect this figure roughly mirrors the figure for uninsured vehicles. There are plenty of people who simply think the law doesn't apply to them.



Yes, MiB estimate around a million 

https://www.mib.org.uk/media-centre...-as-drivers-continue-to-flout-insurance-laws/


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## GrumpyGregry (17 Nov 2017)

Globalti said:


> I expect this figure roughly mirrors the figure for uninsured vehicles. There are plenty of people who simply think the law doesn't apply to them.


again, levy on fuel for 3rd party cover.


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## deptfordmarmoset (17 Nov 2017)

This thread made me worry about when my car tax expires. I had October stuck in my memory and panicked.


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## Illaveago (17 Nov 2017)

It didn't need a scientist to figure out that scrapping the car tax disc was a bad Idea or did it?

The stupid thing is ,with the way it operated before you had to have proof of insurance and a current MOT in order to get your road tax.
The new cost savings swept all of that away. So now you can have more cars on the road that are not roadworthy and don't have insurance.


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## Phaeton (17 Nov 2017)

I wrote to my MP a few years ago with the idea, he forwarded it to the ministry who replied saying that it was unworkable due to people living in rural areas would be unfairly penalised.


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## Illaveago (17 Nov 2017)

The trouble with putting the levy on fuel will mean that they will siphon your tank.


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## screenman (17 Nov 2017)

Phaeton said:


> Put it on fuel, nobody can dodge it then



Would that not punish rural dwellers? I am not disagreeing though even though my fuel bill is in the region of £110 a week, if everybody paid it then I may even be better off.

Is that 755,000 any more than it was with the previous system.


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## Phaeton (17 Nov 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> You're not the only one who was prompted to go and check. Which reminds me ... it's coming up to MOT time again.


You can get emails for MOT but strangely not VED


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## Phaeton (17 Nov 2017)

screenman said:


> Would that not punish rural dwellers? I am not disagreeing though even though my fuel bill is in the region of £110 a week, if everybody paid it then I may even be better off.


Possibly, that was the answer that DOT (I think it was) gave, but every time I go into the deepest rural places fuel is already more expensive than in town, it would also be more proportional in my mind, so the people in their Chelsea tractors doing 10mpg around town would probably pay far more than the old biddy in her Micra doing 50mpg out in the country. It would also mean the sales reps in their diesel BMW/Audi's doing 60K a year would pay a lot more than the £30 they are currently paying.


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## Aravis (17 Nov 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> You're not the only one who was prompted to go and check. Which reminds me ... it's coming up to MOT time again.


Last year I had one of those panic moments when I was driving along and suddenly thought - TAX! It was the 12th of the next month and I was still able to use the renewal. Not to be recommended but on that occasion there were no adverse consequences.

Call me a cynic, but I'd happily believe that the real reason for scrapping the tax disc was to make it more likely people will either forget or think they can get away with it, so that the government ends up making more money from the resultant penalties.


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## glasgowcyclist (17 Nov 2017)

Phaeton said:


> Put it on fuel, nobody can dodge it then



How will your system cope with the growing switch over to electric vehicles? There are over 104,000 electric vehicles registered in the UK, of which 4,500 are commercial vans. Now I grant you that's currently a drop in the ocean but it will inevitably become the norm so where will you put the duty then?


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## Drago (17 Nov 2017)

Phaeton said:


> I wrote to my MP a few years ago with the idea, he forwarded it to the ministry who replied saying that it was unworkable due to people living in rural areas would be unfairly penalised.



As would the urban dwellers too lazy to walk their kids to school, or to walk 350 metres to the shop.


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## Drago (17 Nov 2017)

They'll eventually tax leccy vehicles based on a formula around size and weight. The more damage you do to the road, and the more real estate you take up, the more you will pay.

But that event horizon may not happen, or at best is a long way off. At this time there is no prospect of the UKs generation capacity being expanded to the point where it can support cars and vans in like-for-like numbers with today's volume, and there aren't enough rare earth metals to make the motors and batteries to replace every private ICE car with a leccy.

The British public look hopefully forward to a future they they can continue their lazy ways with electric power, but numerically it wont happen. Thirty or 40 years time the bulk of them will be on the bus or cycling if they don't want to walk. This vision of a future where leccy cars replace ICE ones 1 for 1 and everyone carries on as before is a fantasy.


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## glasgowcyclist (17 Nov 2017)

Illaveago said:


> The stupid thing is ,with the way it operated before you had to have proof of insurance and a current MOT in order to get your road tax.



That hasn't changed.


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## Phaeton (17 Nov 2017)

glasgowcyclist said:


> How will your system cope with the growing switch over to electric vehicles? There are over 104,000 electric vehicles registered in the UK, of which 4,500 are commercial vans. Now I grant you that's currently a drop in the ocean but it will inevitably become the norm so where will you put the duty then?


No idea, how are they going to recoup the massive drop in VED once electric becomes more the norm, although unless there is a breakthrough with battery technology that is going to be a long long time in the future? Maybe they will colour the electricity & you can only run your vehicle on gold electricity & anyone found running their car on red electricity will be fined.


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## Phaeton (17 Nov 2017)

glasgowcyclist said:


> That hasn't changed.


The VED service no longer checks before being able to obtain VED,


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## glasgowcyclist (17 Nov 2017)

Phaeton said:


> The VED service no longer checks before being able to obtain VED,



Source?


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## Phaeton (17 Nov 2017)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Source?


Experience


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## Drago (17 Nov 2017)

It does check for an MOT. If the vehicle doesn't have one it offers you the opportunity to manually enter a test certificate number. It then checks for insurance too - the MIB database it checks against isn't the best, so if you're legitimately trying to pay car tax and it falls flat its most likely to do so at this point.


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## Phaeton (17 Nov 2017)

Drago said:


> It does check for an MOT. If the vehicle doesn't have one it offers you the opportunity to manually enter a test certificate number. It then checks for insurance too - the MIB database it checks against isn't the best, so if you're legitimately trying to pay car tax and it falls flat its most likely to do so at this point.


Not my experience only a couple of weeks ago, car purchased, no insurance, it allowed us to obtain VED on it & insurance was arranged after as we weren't going to drive it home without VED.


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## mjr (17 Nov 2017)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> This thread made me worry about when my car tax expires. I had October stuck in my memory and panicked.


Did your MOTer not attach a key fob with the various expiry dates and their phone number on it, then? Maybe they don't care about their customers like ours


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## mjr (17 Nov 2017)

screenman said:


> Would that not punish rural dwellers? I am not disagreeing though even though my fuel bill is in the region of £110 a week, if everybody paid it then I may even be better off.
> 
> Is that 755,000 any more than it was with the previous system.


Yes, according to the article, or at least more than it was immediately before. I suspect it might have got higher briefly before the police had automatic number plate checkers but I've not checked the historical estimates.

I doubt it would necessarily punish rural dwellers disproportionately - for example, the petrol station in the next village to me is as cheap as any in the borough - but there might be some specific cases which would need some intervention to prevent hardship until the system adjusts. I suspect it's the low-mpg suburbia drivers who would pay most, but they're arguably the ones who should, as they've often more access than villagers to local services and mass transport but choose to drive to schools in other districts, to shops on the edge of town and so on.


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## glasgowcyclist (17 Nov 2017)

mjr said:


> I doubt it would necessarily punish rural dwellers disproportionately



I invite you to visit rural Scotland where prices can be 10-20p per litre higher than in the cities.


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## Phaeton (17 Nov 2017)

glasgowcyclist said:


> I invite you to visit rural Scotland where prices can be 10-20p per litre higher than in the cities.


Does that not negate their logic already, the fact that prices are already high, they could setup areas which suppliers could ask for relief from duty, I know you would then probably get some fuel tourism, but as long as it was restricted to a tank at a time it would hardly be worth traveling 50 miles to fill up. I know I don't have the answers, but I'm not paid huge amount of money to come up with them, I just don't think the existing or the previous system works correctly. Then again, were there more traffic police or VOSA vehicles with ANPR with the legal right to seize un-VED'd vehicles then maybe more people would pay.


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## mjr (17 Nov 2017)

glasgowcyclist said:


> I invite you to visit rural Scotland where prices can be 10-20p per litre higher than in the cities.


I invite you to read "there might be some specific cases which would need some intervention" before going off half-cock.


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## glasgowcyclist (17 Nov 2017)

mjr said:


> I invite you to read "there might be some specific cases which would need some intervention" before going off half-cock.



The price I referred to already includes the UK government's intervention of a rural fuel price cut of 5p/L launched two years ago.


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## Drago (17 Nov 2017)

mjr said:


> Did your MOTer not attach a key fob with the various expiry dates and their phone number on it, then? Maybe they don't care about their customers like ours



No, but my MOT'er only charges Blue Light Card holders £20 for the test.


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## Phaeton (17 Nov 2017)

glasgowcyclist said:


> The price I referred to already includes the UK government's intervention of a rural fuel price cut of 5p/L launched two years ago.


We've seen a 10p/L increase in diesel in the last 2 weeks


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## albion (17 Nov 2017)

Rooster1 said:


> I'm not very good with stats but looks like the demise of the tax disc has led to a tripling of the number of unlicensed vehicles.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42009111


A two year old could have predicted that.

Tax disc means tax disc. No problem not having one on show.


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## Drago (17 Nov 2017)

Phaeton said:


> We've seen a 10p/L increase in diesel in the last 2 weeks



And so it should, what with the damage to health its use brings.


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## Phaeton (17 Nov 2017)

Drago said:


> And so it should, what with the damage to health its use brings.


Although that isn't relevant to this thread, do you really think that is the reason & that extra 10p is being used to clean up the environment & given directly to the NHS?


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## Drago (17 Nov 2017)

Nope, but every extra penny makes someone somewhere think twice about whether to make that diesel car journey or not.


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## ORO (17 Nov 2017)

I don't need to pay VED on my vehicles that are over 40 years old. Next year won't even need a MOT.


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## Phaeton (17 Nov 2017)

Drago said:


> Nope, but every extra penny makes someone somewhere think twice about whether to make that diesel car journey or not.


If you believe that I'm sorry but you've gone dillusional since retirement


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## Drago (17 Nov 2017)

Phaeton said:


> If you believe that I'm sorry but you've gone dillusional since retirement



Do you think people will drive their cars even more as the cost of doing so rises?


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## Phaeton (17 Nov 2017)

Drago said:


> Do you think people will drive their cars even more as the cost of doing so rises?


Do people have a choice? I work 20 miles away from where I live, there are no other jobs within the industry anywhere in the area, the next similar type of firm is 50 miles away, yes I could change my job, in fact I'd love to but he options open to a 57 year old are somewhat limited.


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## Drago (17 Nov 2017)

In many cases, yes, they do. They can walk to school, or walk to the shops. The unnecessary journeys will be the first to go.

And then if things get really bad, the choice is taken away from them. To use your example, if fuel became so expensive that the drive to work costs more then your capacity to pay for it any more, then you would no longer do it.


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## Phaeton (17 Nov 2017)

Drago said:


> The unnecessary journeys will be the first to go.


sales reps on the road going on a jolly, HGV's clogging up the cities, buses never switching engines off, black cabs still on derv, there are many many things that could be done at National level, but this now has got nothing to do with VED, so I'll let you have the last word on it as you are prone to do & I'll not reply if it's not specifically about VED.


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## NorthernDave (17 Nov 2017)

Maybe lack of enforcement is the real issue?
A lad at work claims to have two untaxed cars in his street that he's reported several times using the link on the DVLA website over the last six months that are still there.


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## Nigel-YZ1 (17 Nov 2017)

How about putting ANPR cameras in all those empty boxes covered with bags that used to house speed cameras (and don't now for some reason). Stick a 3G comms system in them the same as smart electric meters to transmit the data.


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## Phaeton (17 Nov 2017)

Nigel-YZ1 said:


> How about putting ANPR cameras in all those empty boxes covered with bags that used to house speed cameras (and don't now for some reason). Stick a 3G comms system in them the same as smart electric meters to transmit the data.


I understand what you are saying but quite often the cars are being run without VED & they are not registered in their name/address which means if you don't physically catch them in the act there's not a lot you can do about it.


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## Drago (17 Nov 2017)

Confiscate and crush the cars of offenders.


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## Phaeton (17 Nov 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> How does he know they're untaxed as they don't have discs? Is that info publicly online?


https://www.gov.uk/check-vehicle-tax


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## Ming the Merciless (17 Nov 2017)

Phaeton said:


> I understand what you are saying but quite often the cars are being run without VED & they are not registered in their name/address which means if you don't physically catch them in the act there's not a lot you can do about it.



You have proof the vehicle was used on the public highway at a date / time. You know where. So just a case of tracking down where the vehicle in kept and collect it and crush it.


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## Phaeton (17 Nov 2017)

YukonBoy said:


> You have proof the vehicle was used on the public highway at a date / time. You know where. So just a case of tracking down where the vehicle in kept and collect it and crush it.


I totally agree with you but how do you propose they do that if it's registered in somebody else's name & address? If they had campaigns at the roadside, pulled people over & didn't let them continue it would be far more effective. It's already an offence to not have the vehicle either VED'd or SORN, there is no inbetween, so they could should they wish send out summons or however they do it.


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## flake99please (17 Nov 2017)

I reported 2 vehicles declared as SORN which were parked on my street. 1 was towed away within 2 days, and the other was taxed within a week. Which reminds me.... the cars VED expires at the end of this month.


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## BoldonLad (17 Nov 2017)

Phaeton said:


> Not my experience only a couple of weeks ago, car purchased, no insurance, it allowed us to obtain VED on it & insurance was arranged after as we weren't going to drive it home without VED.



It is, I believe, common practice for car dealers to sell cars (both new and second-hand) with 7 days insurance included, hence, VED requirements are satisfied. Private sales are another matter of course.


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## Phaeton (17 Nov 2017)

BoldonLad said:


> Private sales are another matter of course.


Only ever buy from private


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## NorthernDave (17 Nov 2017)

Nigel-YZ1 said:


> How about putting ANPR cameras in all those empty boxes covered with bags that used to house speed cameras (and don't now for some reason). Stick a 3G comms system in them the same as smart electric meters to transmit the data.



Here is the capital of the North, there are lots and lots of ANPR cameras around the city - it's impossible to use a major route in or out of the city without passing several and they crop up on a surprising amount of other routes. Trouble is they just record passing vehicles, there's no enforcement, just "intelligence" gathering - largely of law abiding drivers who've got their car registered to their home address.
Da Fedz also have ANPR cameras on a decent number of their cars (not just the traffic ones with Jamie Theakston in) and 3 or 4 times a year have a well publicised crack down operation in the expected parts of town where they'll take a dozen or so untaxed / uninsured / unMOT'd cars off the road in a morning.
The rest of the time? If you're unlucky enough to drive past a police car and trigger the camera expect to lose your car - the rest of the time it seems that justice catching up with you is about as likely as winning the lottery.
Don't forget that a typical fine for no insurance is about £300 (I think there is a set scale for this now) - which is considerably cheaper than actually buying insurance for virtually everyone who'll think it's OK to ride round without it.
So if you are unlucky enough to get caught, just wave goodbye to that car and simply buy another cheapie and don't bother with VED, insurance or an MOT. It's cheaper than doing it legitimately.



Dogtrousers said:


> How does he know they're untaxed as they don't have discs? Is that info publicly online?
> 
> As an aside some years ago someone parked across my driveway, blocking my garage. Their tax disc was out of date so I phoned the DVLA (I think, or maybe it was local police) and reported it, which gave me great satisfaction. I didn't want to use my garage at the time, I was just annoyed that they hadn't had the courtesy to - say - leave a note under the wipers saying "if you need me to move this, phone this number ...". If they did that now, I wouldn't know how to check.





Phaeton said:


> https://www.gov.uk/check-vehicle-tax



As @Phaeton says.

As regards blocking drives, if your drive has a dropped kerb, it's an offence to park across it and plod can and will turn out and tow the car if it's blocking you in (I've seen it done - although they may need a bit of persuasion to act nowadays)


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## Drago (17 Nov 2017)

It's an offence to obstruct the highway, so were the chap in his garage trying to access the highway the offence is complete.

However, were he in the road trying to access his garage, the offence is not made out.


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