# The rugby



## swee'pea99 (14 Nov 2021)

It's long bugged me that there's no thread for, simply, the rugby, in the way that there is for, say, football or cricket. So apologies for the presumption in mooting one, but I honestly couldn't find anywhere to post. 







And I can't believe I'm the only one who saw Ireland v All Blacks yesterday.

I was brooding about this in a back-of-mind sort of way when I came across a post by somone called Unionfan who said so exactly what I felt, and it was so honest and so heartfelt that I wanted to share it. But I couldn't find a place. So I made one. 





The only thing I would add, as other posters on the Guardian site had, was recognition for the dignified behaviour of the ABs in defeat. The ability to lose with grace is a value we should cherish in a world sliding toward America's sneering 'show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser' mindset. 

As I said to my daughter, who poked her head round the door just after the final whistle, "It was everything rugby _can_ be!"

And I'm half kiwi. 

'way the lads.


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## cisamcgu (14 Nov 2021)

I saw the second half, and you are right, excellent rugby from both sides. I also watched the Eng v Aus later, and again a good match if less competitive - England dominated and should have won by an even larger margin.

What really "_gets my goat_" watching Rugby, however, is the multitude of penalties that are given _*with no explanation *_from the commentators. The rules can be tricky , especially in the breakdown, and the game would be immensely improved for the casual watcher by helpful pointers from the pundits. Is it that they have no idea either why a penalty is awarded perhaps ?


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## AndyRM (14 Nov 2021)

Ire v NZ was an absolutely incredible game. Maximum commitment from both sides.


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## Bonefish Blues (14 Nov 2021)

cisamcgu said:


> What really "_gets my goat_" watching Rugby, however, is the multitude of penalties that are given _*with no explanation *_from the commentators. The rules can be tricky , especially in the breakdown, and the game would be immensely improved for the casual watcher by helpful pointers from the pundits. Is it that they have no idea either why a penalty is awarded perhaps ?


Listen to the match with ref sound, as I'm doing on Prime. Truly excellent, no wittering commentators and you'll get and education into the interpretation of the Laws of Rugby. The ref in WAL-FIJ is doing a brilliant job, and also changing his mind where necessary, such as the sending-off, where his TMO & Touch Judges correctly influenced him to award a Red, not the Yellow that was his initial instinct.


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## geocycle (14 Nov 2021)

Loved the NZ v Ireland game. Brilliant skill to play at that pace for 80 mins. I do agree that the number of penalties is ridiculous, although the recent increase is because of protecting the head area. I’d like to see them only for foul play and everything else, especially in the scrum to be free kicks.


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## Grant Fondo (14 Nov 2021)

As others have said a classic! Glad it was on ITV too, loads of buffering for me with the other Amazon games ... not impressed.


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## swee'pea99 (14 Nov 2021)

cisamcgu said:


> I saw the second half, and you are right, excellent rugby from both sides. I also watched the Eng v Aus later, and again a good match if less competitive - England dominated and should have won by an even larger margin.
> 
> What really "_gets my goat_" watching Rugby, however, is the multitude of penalties that are given _*with no explanation *_from the commentators. The rules can be tricky , especially in the breakdown, and the game would be immensely improved for the casual watcher by helpful pointers from the pundits. Is it that they have no idea either why a penalty is awarded perhaps ?


Watching football I can at least understand pretty much every decision. I may disagree with it, but I get it. Not in rugby. I'd say a third of the time I haven't a clue.


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## MartinQ (14 Nov 2021)

Highlights of Wales - Fuji on S4C at 6.30 tonight. A close game at the moment.


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## Beebo (14 Nov 2021)

Contesting the ball at the breakdown does seem to be a lottery at times. Especially if you have someone lying on top of you.


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## Dogtrousers (14 Nov 2021)

Ireland NZ was a brilliant match. England vs Australia ... wasn't.

I have to admit I've lost touch with most of the laws around the breakdown, and they keep sneaking new changes in without telling me.


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## Beebo (14 Nov 2021)

The Scottish gave SA a good game, but SA play a very boring attritional game and just squeeze the life out teams.


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## Dogtrousers (15 Nov 2021)

Thinking about it, there are 5 laws that I understand

1) No forward passes 
2) The offside law
3) The set piece. The ref may blow for a random penalty or free kick at any time during or immediately after a lineout or a scrum. Except for the crooked feed law. Referees are not allowed to enforce that.
4) Dangerous stuff is not allowed: High tackles, tackles in the air etc.
5) The breakdown. The ref may blow for a random penalty or free kick or award a scrum to either side (at random) during the period between a tackle being made and the ball being passed away from the resulting blob of arms and legs.


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## Chap sur le velo (15 Nov 2021)

Glad I wasn't the only one who thought it was brilliant (I did wonder if my natural bias was affecting my judgement).

I have been finding the game increasingly attritional and not holding my interest the way it used to. This one felt like it was full of interest and the constant recycling of the ball seemed to be with effect. To often it seems like a dance of Crabs moving sideways back and forth. Skills were high, the ball was recycled at pace and hard yards were won. 

The newer players are really developing and there's more depth that ever before. I'm a lot more optimistic about Irelands prospects than I have been over the past couple of years when Schmidt's blueprint became stale. Farrell says they are preparing for the RWC where the minimum aim has to be to get past the Quarter Finals for the first time ever. Unfortunately if they get out of their group their QF opponents are either France or NZ - currently my picks as likely the two best teams. But each victory brings confidence and they have to beat whoever they play against.

Carberry has to be key to the side developing. As Sexton ages they need to start Carberry with a view to bringing Jonny on to see them home. To cover for injury they also need a 3rd and 4th No 10 in the system.

Final thought; as much as Ireland were up for it, NZ did look a little jaded there was a lack of "dominant tackles" and Ireland bossed the gain line. They will be better prepared next summer. I'll be happy to see more players given experience and would settle for one victory in the the three match series.

Final final thought. Thanks for starting this thread. Have only seen the wife since Saturday and I've been trying to get her to appreciate the above points but she seems strangely resistant to the very idea....


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## Beebo (20 Nov 2021)

England rode the SA power game and just about won. SA are route 1 attritional games. 
The penalty count was horrendous but we did score some good tries.


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## MartinQ (20 Nov 2021)

And Wales take it at the death. Highlights shortly on S4C.


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## Beebo (20 Nov 2021)

MartinQ said:


> And Wales take it at the death. Highlights shortly on S4C.


A win is a win but Winning in the 82nd minute is not a great result considering they were playing 14 men for 66 minutes of the game.
But an exciting final 10 minutes.


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## dave r (20 Nov 2021)

The rugby should be on free to air TV not on prime only, listening to the game on talksport ain't the same, I did wonder if the high penalty count against England was a result of the pressure they were under or was the ref a bit too strict.


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## Beebo (20 Nov 2021)

dave r said:


> The rugby should be on free to air TV not on prime only, listening to the game on talksport ain't the same, I did wonder if the high penalty count against England was a result of the pressure they were under or was the ref a bit too strict.


The autumn internationals used to be on Sky, so prime is slightly better IMO. 
I felt the ref was being a bit harsh, but England have a history of struggling with penalties.


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## dave r (20 Nov 2021)

Beebo said:


> The autumn internationals used to be on Sky, so prime is slightly better IMO.
> I felt the ref was being a bit harsh, but England have a history of struggling with penalties.



They used to be free to air as well and should have stayed that way, like a lot of people I don't have Sky or Prime. I know about Englands tendency to end up with a high penalty count and did wonder if in this case it was a result of pressure or a strict ref or both.


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## Dogtrousers (20 Nov 2021)

I missed it, I was out on my bike. Does anyone know if the highlights will be on an ordinary channel? Or am I going to have _to look for myself_


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## dave r (20 Nov 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> I missed it, I was out on my bike. Does anyone know if the highlights will be on an ordinary channel? Or am I going to have _to look for myself_



Not that I'm aware of.


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## geocycle (21 Nov 2021)

Enjoyable set of matches, France v ABs wow, Eng v SA ouch! 9 times of 10 if the pack gets bat you will lose, the exception is if you score 3 tries and hold on for grim death! I’m borrowing sons Amazon prime for the matches. Coverage is good but the app is a bit limited. Yesterday I was late home so tried to watch it from the start in catch up mode. It was impossible until the match and all the after match chat had finished. Each time I tried it went to the game and told me the score.


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## Beebo (21 Nov 2021)

This weekend must be some kind of record. 
Every northern hemisphere team beat a Southern Hemisphere team. 
NZ, Auz, SA, Japan, Arg and Uruguay all lost.


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## Chap sur le velo (21 Nov 2021)

Irelands pack did a great job but behind them there wasn't the fluency of last 2 weeks.

Murray was trying to recycle the ball quickly but his natural game is all about control and he was perfectly suited to the approach of Schmidt's Ireland. Sadly we learnt his time is now up. His box kicking used to be a thing of wonder in it's accuracy, but not only is variable in distance it wasn't in last weeks team plan. In the six nations he may be used off the bench but he's not been the same player since his injury a couple of years ago. Before that he was arguably the best in the world but time waits for no rugby player.

The fluency improved when he went off but the backs weren't lining up in "layers" that had worked so well for them in the two previous matches. Perhaps Carberry needs to be more authoritative? I was a little surprised when he was awarded man of the match, but it will help his confidence going forward..


So all considered a great result and bring on the 6 nations. Scotland and Wales at home, ok. England and France away, learning opportunity.


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## BrumJim (22 Nov 2021)

Beebo said:


> This weekend must be some kind of record.
> Every northern hemisphere team beat a Southern Hemisphere team.
> NZ, Auz, SA, Japan, Arg and Uruguay all lost.


Can I be the first to point out that Japan is a northern hemisphere team?


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## Beebo (22 Nov 2021)

BrumJim said:


> Can I be the first to point out that Japan is a northern hemisphere team?


Yes. Absolutely correct. We do seem to lump them in with the southern teams.


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## PaulB (23 Nov 2021)

Why is there nothing on here about what Kevin Sinfield has just done? 

To run 101 miles through the biting cold and dark of winter has been truly inspiring. It's a pity it came so soon after the Children in Need weekend when people may be suffering from compassion fatigue and that could affect the amount raised but I get the impression this giant of a man wouldn't be too bothered if it was 1p. It's his devotion to his mate that drove him on. Always quick to deflect attention onto his helpers and the others and to constantly remind us why he's doing it. He deserves a very high award for his achievements here.


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## MasterDabber (23 Nov 2021)

^^^^^ So true. A great man in all senses.


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## DRM (23 Nov 2021)

PaulB said:


> Why is there nothing on here about what Kevin Sinfield has just done?
> 
> To run 101 miles through the biting cold and dark of winter has been truly inspiring. It's a pity it came so soon after the Children in Need weekend when people may be suffering from compassion fatigue and that could affect the amount raised but I get the impression this giant of a man wouldn't be too bothered if it was 1p. It's his devotion to his mate that drove him on. Always quick to deflect attention onto his helpers and the others and to constantly remind us why he's doing it. He deserves a very high award for his achievements here.


He’s done it, absolutely magnificent effort, how on earth he’s managed to complete it is beyond my comprehension, he’s not known as Sir Kev amongst us Rhinos fans for nothing, and now nationally too, he’s raised over a million pounds with this one, he deserves knighting for his money raising efforts,


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## Beebo (23 Nov 2021)

DRM said:


> He’s done it, absolutely magnificent effort, how on earth he’s managed to complete it is beyond my comprehension, he’s not known as Sir Kev amongst us Rhinos fans for nothing, and now nationally too, he’s raised over a million pounds with this one, he deserves knighting for his money raising efforts,


He was already an MBE in 2014 which was upgraded to an OBE this year. 
maybe he’ll get another promotion!


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## Time Waster (27 Nov 2021)

Occasional rugby fan here. Anyone confident enough to rate the performances of the main teams (6 nations teams plus nz, aus and sa).

I saw a news piece from a Welsh paper that came up with the argument that Wales were unfairly ranked by the irb ranking system so we came up with our own that puts Wales third behind England and SA at 1. Typical Wales online rubbish as I believe they won a few when the other side was on 13 or 14 men on the pitch.

If anyone can give an honest summary of the autumn series, I'd be interested.

My uneducated feeling is that northern hemisphere had an advantage as the southern hemisphere teams just didn't click somehow. I think England introduced a new feel to their setup that's going to be exciting going forward, but only if farrell doesn't come back into the first choice setup. NZ I think were tired or something but as a team, WOW! Great respect too their mindset. They are the most professional team in sport IMHO. Ireland are a team that's moved on and should be considered with NZ, SA, AUS (when better than they are now) and ENG as the top teams and in an order that will change around. France I think have talent, like always, but they need something to be consistent, have they finally got it? 

Sorry about the above rubbish. I did say I was an occasional fan and really knows very little about the details. The above is probably wrong which is why I'm hoping someone will educate me with a better summary.


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## yello (27 Nov 2021)

The All Blacks weren't on form for whatever reason. They've had a large number of games within the last 3 or 4 months so maybe this autumn series (or northern tour as they called it, as they played the USA as well) was just games too many. The same could be said for Aus and SA.

I've not been an England fan for a good number of years but I found myself enjoying the style of rugby they are now playing. I'm always impressed at how Wales punch above their weight and, as a rule, are attractive to watch (imho) Ireland have actually been stronger in the past and if anything have been a weaker these past years but are building back again. Scotland, the underdogs for some time now, are actually my favourite 6N team; they've been getting progressively stronger, putting in good performances only to be pipped at the post. 

France are always hot and cold. I don't think anything will ever change that! On their day, they were exhilarating... but I don't think we'll ever see that unpredictable 'French flair' again. These days, there rugby is much more controlled.

All imho of course! 

Edit: Oh, and SA are _always_ a beast of a team!


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## MasterDabber (27 Nov 2021)

yello said:


> Edit: Oh, and SA are _always_ a beast of a team!


They certainly are. The first ever international I went to see at Twickenham.... against England in January 1961. Close though. 5-0 to the boks.


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## DRM (28 Nov 2021)

PaulB said:


> Why is there nothing on here about what Kevin Sinfield has just done?
> 
> To run 101 miles through the biting cold and dark of winter has been truly inspiring. It's a pity it came so soon after the Children in Need weekend when people may be suffering from compassion fatigue and that could affect the amount raised but I get the impression this giant of a man wouldn't be too bothered if it was 1p. It's his devotion to his mate that drove him on. Always quick to deflect attention onto his helpers and the others and to constantly remind us why he's doing it. He deserves a very high award for his achievements here.


Should mention as well that prior to this he also ran 7 marathons in 7 days for the MND charity, the No 7 being chosen as it was the squad number of Rob Burrow, he is still so fit he could probably put a pair of boots on & play if he felt so inclined


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## gavroche (5 Feb 2022)

I am really disgusted about the half time analysis on the Scotland-England game. It is all about England and what they should have done or failed to do. There are two teams on the field and one was much better than the other, and it wasn't the one wearing white.
So come on, be fair and give a bit more credit to the blue team.


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## Mo1959 (5 Feb 2022)

It’s a bit tense, but enjoying it.


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## Mo1959 (5 Feb 2022)

Phew!


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## AndyRM (5 Feb 2022)

That was some game!


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## yello (5 Feb 2022)

Was tense stuff indeed. I tend to follow Scotland in the 6N so that result makes me smile but I can't help but feel England threw that away in 2 moments; forgetting to tackle/defend and then an individual mistake (or daft action if you like) Scotland where always in it, battling away as ever, but on balance of play England will be disappointed with themselves.


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## gavroche (5 Feb 2022)

Glad Scotland won. Well deserved.


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## dave r (5 Feb 2022)

yello said:


> Was tense stuff indeed. I tend to follow Scotland in the 6N so that result makes me smile but I can't help but feel England threw that away in 2 moments; forgetting to tackle/defend and then an individual mistake (or daft action if you like) Scotland where always in it, battling away as ever, but on balance of play England will be disappointed with themselves.



England gave it away,  good contest though.


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## Brandane (5 Feb 2022)

gavroche said:


> I am really disgusted about the half time analysis on the Scotland-England game. It is all about England and what they should have done or failed to do. There are two teams on the field and one was much better than the other, and it wasn't the one wearing white.
> So come on, be fair and give a bit more credit to the blue team.


I was thinking the same myself while watching that. Nothing unusual about it though; us Scots get used to such bias from the British (??) Broadcasting Corporation. 
Excellent game though, and of course Scotland deserved the victory. 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿


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## AndyRM (5 Feb 2022)

dave r said:


> England gave it away,  good contest though.



England lacked edge, experience and awareness. 

Perhaps time for Jones to move on? What he was thinking taking off Smith is a mystery.


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## yello (5 Feb 2022)

AndyRM said:


> What he was thinking taking off Smith is a mystery.


Tbh, I thought he had taken a knock/was injured. I actually thought he wasn't going to take that final penalty at first, he seemed to indicate that all wasn't right. He's a talent for sure and it'll be interesting to see how he develops.


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## grldtnr (5 Feb 2022)

dave r said:


> England gave it away,  good contest though.


Yes, England could have taken a draw, in the dying moments of the game, instead of a loss, a share of the points instead of gifting Scotland the win.
Elliot Daly was still on the field , he has a big boot.
The wrong gamble in the end.
Begrudged fair do's to the Scots tho'.


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## Slick (5 Feb 2022)

Not a huge rugby fan but I am a big Scotland fan and never miss the Culcutta Cup. Great game and a great win. 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿


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## AndyRM (5 Feb 2022)

yello said:


> Tbh, I thought he had taken a knock/was injured. I actually thought he wasn't going to take that final penalty at first, he seemed to indicate that all wasn't right. He's a talent for sure and it'll be interesting to see how he develops.



He didn't seem injured to me, but I could be wrong about that.

I get that it's a tough tournament and hard work, but taking off the player who's scored all your points seems a bit counter-intuitive in a game as tight as that.


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## dave r (5 Feb 2022)

AndyRM said:


> England lacked edge, experience and awareness.
> 
> Perhaps time for Jones to move on? What he was thinking taking off Smith is a mystery.



I was surprised that Jones didn't go after the last six nations.


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## Beebo (5 Feb 2022)

I know he’s a hooker and shouldn’t be under the high ball. But What was LCD doing. 

If he can get both hands to it then at least try to catch it. If you knock it on accidentally then so be it? It’s only a scrum. But don’t slap it forward on purpose. 

The penalty try seemed a bit harsh to me, it could have gone either way.


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## AndyRM (5 Feb 2022)

dave r said:


> I was surprised that Jones didn't go after the last six nations.



Likewise. I assume he has some massive payout clause or something in his contract, but I can't see him lasting beyond this tournament if England end up fifth again.


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## dave r (5 Feb 2022)

AndyRM said:


> Likewise. I assume he has some massive payout clause or something in his contract, but I can't see him lasting beyond this tournament if England end up fifth again.



Me neither, he should have gone last time.


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## Chromatic (5 Feb 2022)

Beebo said:


> I know he’s a hooker and shouldn’t be under the high ball. But What was LCD doing.
> 
> If he can get both hands to it then at least try to catch it. If you knock it on accidentally then so be it? It’s only a scrum. But don’t slap it forward on purpose.
> 
> The penalty try seemed a bit harsh to me, it could have gone either way.


 He was making a bid to get in the English Volleyball team. 
I too wondered why the hell didn't he try to catch rather than do what he did.

That final set of scrums would have almost certainly resulted in a penalty for England if they had taken place in the first couple of minutes rather than the final couple.


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## AndyRM (5 Feb 2022)

Chromatic said:


> He was making a bid to get in the English Volleyball team.
> I too wondered why the hell didn't he try to catch rather than do what he did.
> 
> That final set of scrums would have almost certainly resulted in a penalty for England if they had taken place in the first couple of minutes rather than the final couple.



It looked like he panicked to me, hadn't realised how close Graham was and his head went. Maybe? 

Shouldn't have happened, and he'll be gutted, but it was generous of Jones not to throw him under the bus (publicly at least).


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## Chap sur le velo (5 Feb 2022)

Talk about bias,,,,not one mention of the one team who really performed today....


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## AndyRM (5 Feb 2022)

Chap sur le velo said:


> Talk about bias,,,,not one mention of the one team who really performed today....



Ireland looked very, very good. Quick hands, and nowhere near as cynical at the break down as I've seen them in the past.

Wales looked like they'd never played the game before, though they have a long injury list.


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## Chromatic (5 Feb 2022)

AndyRM said:


> It looked like he panicked to me, hadn't realised how close Graham was and his head went. Maybe?
> 
> Shouldn't have happened, and he'll be gutted, but it was generous of Jones not to throw him under the bus (publicly at least).


He certainly had some sort of brain fart, maybe it was the opposition player being closer than he thought but he really should have not been fazed by that.


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## Chromatic (5 Feb 2022)

AndyRM said:


> Ireland looked very, very good. Quick hands, and nowhere near as cynical at the break down as I've seen them in the past.
> 
> Wales looked like they'd never played the game before, though they have a long injury list.


I agree with you about the breakdown, that was helped by O'Mahony not starting.
They were very good but Wales didn't offer much, except for an Irish MOM performance by Josh Adams.


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## AndyRM (5 Feb 2022)

Chromatic said:


> I agree with you about the breakdown, that was helped by O'Mahony not starting.
> They were very good but Wales didn't offer much, except for an Irish MOM performance by Josh Adams.



Adams was lucky to only get binned for that I thought.


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## swee'pea99 (6 Feb 2022)

Extraordinary - and fantastic - game. And all credit to Scotland - what a performance! That will be an 'I was there' moment to rank with the best. No wonder the whole stadium was going nuts. 

15 minutes to go and all the momentum was with England, having come back from 10-6 to 10-17 and looking menacing, and then bang: it's 17 all, 10 minutes to go, one man down. Nerve-shredding finale. Rugby at its best. 

Ireland were awesome. Wales, sadly, looked clueless and toothless - the score flattered them. 

Great opening day. Roll on the Six Nations!

And, again, well done Scotland. Heart wins great matches, and yours beat just that bit harder.


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## geocycle (6 Feb 2022)

Thought England were the better team for much of the match, but Scotland got the points and congratulations to them. Scotland took the two chances they had from 30% possession. Very little to choose between 5 teams who could all beat each other. France and Ireland look a notch above the others.


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## Bonefish Blues (6 Feb 2022)

It really was a penalty/penalties at that last scrum though, when Scotland folded - you can't change the application of the rules just because it's in overtime. I mean F1 would never do that.

Oh wait 😊


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## AndyRM (6 Feb 2022)

geocycle said:


> Thought England were the better team for much of the match, but Scotland got the points and congratulations to them. Scotland took the two chances they had from 30% possession. Very little to choose between 5 teams who could all beat each other. France and Ireland look a notch above the others.



A lot depends on which version of France shows up I reckon. On their day they are close to unplayable, but if they go 'Bof' they aren't good.


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## Chap sur le velo (6 Feb 2022)

Bonefish Blues said:


> It really was a penalty/penalties at that last scrum though, when Scotland folded - you can't change the application of the rules just because it's in overtime. I mean F1 would never do that.
> 
> Oh wait 😊


The scrum has been a mess for years. When England were down to 7 in the pack, the Scots had the put in, in a great position. England managed to get 3 or 4 resets, successfully running down the clock. I felt a penalty was overdue. 
It's a mess. The idea that the ref gains a mental picture of who's dominant to help them decide if it's a penalty goes against all that's good in sport/life. If the refs cant be sure the rules need changing.
PLUS even as an old second row, they are now boring.


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## AndyRM (6 Feb 2022)

Chap sur le velo said:


> The scrum has been a mess for years. When England were down to 7 in the pack, the Scots had the put in, in a great position. England managed to get 3 or 4 resets, successfully running down the clock. I felt a penalty was overdue.
> It's a mess. The idea that the ref gains a mental picture of who's dominant to help them decide if it's a penalty goes against all that's good in sport/life. If the refs cant be sure the rules need changing.
> PLUS even as an old second row, they are now boring.



They seem to change the rules all the time which doesn't help anyone know what's actually going on!


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## AndyRM (6 Feb 2022)

I don't normally pay attention to pundits (apart from Pat Nevin at the football, he's brilliant), but I thought this was a pretty good take on the Calcutta Cup:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/60275340

I still haven't read or heard anything about why Jones thought taking Smith off was a good idea.

Anyway, allez les bleus! Oh mon dieu, it's on ITV... 

I don't know if it's just me, but they seem to use different camera angles to the BBC coverage; I assume options are available and they just take different ones? Everything seems a lot more focused on the action, so I find it difficult to work out what's actually going on.

Of course, this means a lot more close ups of muscular chaps in tight shorts, so every cloud...


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## AndyRM (6 Feb 2022)

Great performance from Italy. They've wilted in the past after 60 minutes. 

The scoreline flatters France a bit I think, although they probably had a couple more gears.


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## Dayvo (6 Feb 2022)

Chap sur le velo said:


> PLUS even as an old second row, they are now boring.


As an ex tight head I agree with you. They are becoming as ridiculous as the scrums in rugby league.


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## Dogtrousers (8 Feb 2022)

An interesting new law experiment. Multiball!


View: https://twitter.com/pauleddison/status/1490451355672236039


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## Beebo (8 Feb 2022)

Dogtrousers said:


> An interesting new law experiment. Multiball!
> 
> 
> View: https://twitter.com/pauleddison/status/1490451355672236039



great throw in from the crowd. 
timed to perfection.


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## AndyRM (8 Feb 2022)

Beebo said:


> great throw in from the crowd.
> timed to perfection.



Marler should take notes.


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## Beebo (12 Feb 2022)

Italy under 20s beat England 6-0 last night in a game that was better than the score line suggests. 

Italy’s 1st team have never beaten England. It would have to be the end of the road for Eddie Jones if England lose. 

France v Ireland today should be a great game and will probably decide the overall winner.


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## Mo1959 (12 Feb 2022)

Here we go. I don’t hold out much hope for Scotland against Wales.


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## Slick (12 Feb 2022)

Mo1959 said:


> Here we go. I don’t hold out much hope for Scotland against Wales.


How about now?


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## Mo1959 (12 Feb 2022)

Ok so far


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## Slick (12 Feb 2022)

Mo1959 said:


> Ok so far


Still a big ask but they are right in the thick of it. 🤞


----------



## Mo1959 (12 Feb 2022)

Oh well  They put up a better performance than I thought they might.


----------



## dave r (12 Feb 2022)

Mo1959 said:


> Oh well  They put up a better performance than I thought they might.



Good scrap.


----------



## AndyRM (12 Feb 2022)

Cardiff is always a tough place to go. A good, tense game, although not much quality for the neutral.


----------



## Rusty Nails (12 Feb 2022)

That was close.
I nearly missed my winning bid on a Tiagra shifter which ended just on the final whistle.


----------



## Slick (12 Feb 2022)

Mo1959 said:


> Oh well  They put up a better performance than I thought they might.


My only real desire supporting anything involving Scotland is go down fighting. Anything else is a bonus.


----------



## AndyRM (12 Feb 2022)

Some great stuff between France and Ireland so far. The Ireland try was something special.


----------



## jowwy (12 Feb 2022)

Yup a big win for the welsh on home soil after last weeks debacle in ireland


----------



## yello (12 Feb 2022)

AndyRM said:


> Some great stuff between France and Ireland so far. The Ireland try was something special.


I forget it was on and have just seen the score. Reads like it was an exciting game. French commentators get hyper at the best of times, they'd have been going manic over that one!


----------



## AndyRM (12 Feb 2022)

Great game of rugby. Ireland were very good, but France were better.


----------



## Chap sur le velo (12 Feb 2022)

AndyRM said:


> Great game of rugby. Ireland were very good, but France were better.


Yes hard to argue but they did catch Ireland napping.
No point playing the what if ...they deservedly won today.


----------



## Chromatic (12 Feb 2022)

It's clear that France and Ireland are a class above the rest. Worryingly for England, Scotland, who were poor today, were still able to beat them.


----------



## Beebo (12 Feb 2022)

Chromatic said:


> It's clear that France and Ireland are a class above the rest. Worryingly for England, Scotland, who were poor today, were still able to beat them.


I’ll assess England after a few games. 
Scotland always play their world cup final against England in Edinburgh. And they only won because of a crazy penal try/ yellow card. 
If England fail be beat Italy with a bonus point then I will be worried.


----------



## Chromatic (12 Feb 2022)

Beebo said:


> I’ll assess England after a few games.
> Scotland always play their world cup final against England in Edinburgh. And they only won because of a crazy penal try/ yellow card.
> If England fail be beat Italy with a bonus point then I will be worried.



Yes, this is all true, we've touched upon the importance to the Celts of their matches against the English here in CC the past. I vaguely remember, if I remember correctly, posting about when Wales beat England in early stages of the world cup a few years ago that that was their World Cup final and it was always going to be downhill from there.
About the Scotland game, It was a crazy penalty try that gave them the victory but a victory it was nevertheless.
England won't lose to the Italians and it should be a bonus point victory but Eddie Jones too often doesn't pick the best players available and seems to too often play players out of position. England have too often not picked the best available forever though, so we shouldn't be surprised at that.

I can't see us beating the Irish even though we have them at home, as for France who knows how we'll do against them, it depends on what French team turns up and how much we get under their skin.


----------



## Rusty Nails (12 Feb 2022)

On the right day England, France and Ireland are very close in ability and a lot depends on home advantage.

France, especially with Sean Edwards as defence coach, will not let teams under their skin these days and the result with England will hinge on how badly Eddie Jones can get his tactics and substitutions wrong.

Wales have Ireland and England away so will do well to finish fourth this year.


----------



## Chromatic (12 Feb 2022)

Rusty Nails said:


> On the right day England, France and Ireland are very close in ability and a lot depends on home advantage.
> 
> *France, especially with Sean Edwards as defence coach, will not let teams under their skin these days *and the result with England will hinge on how badly Eddie Jones can get his tactics and substitutions wrong.
> 
> Wales have Ireland and England away so will do well to finish fourth this year.



I reckon you're right there, gone are the days when anyone can wind them up so much, a la Brian Moore, that they'd give away stupid penalties or get themselves sent off.


----------



## dave r (13 Feb 2022)

Chromatic said:


> I reckon you're right there, gone are the days when anyone can wind them up so much, a la Brian Moore, that they'd give away stupid penalties or get themselves sent off.



I remember that, the wind up would start in the press about a week before the game and by the second half of the game the French had started to fall apart.


----------



## Dayvo (13 Feb 2022)

Chromatic said:


> I reckon you're right there, gone are the days when anyone can wind them up so much, a la Brian Moore, that they'd give away stupid penalties or get themselves sent off.


Found this a few years ago and laugh every time I hear it.
It’s all worth listening to, but, IMO, the Wade Dooley story stands out.

Click on ‘Watch on youtube.’


View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=697uhPeDTt0


----------



## AndyRM (13 Feb 2022)

A pretty disjointed first half in Rome. Italy really need to sort their maul out.


----------



## AndyRM (13 Feb 2022)

Even scrappier second half, but I felt Italy deserved something for all their pressure.


----------



## Dogtrousers (13 Feb 2022)

AndyRM said:


> Even scrappier second half, but I felt Italy deserved something for all their pressure.


I was not entertained by that. (The match I mean, not your post).


----------



## Chromatic (13 Feb 2022)

Not very good was it?


----------



## Beebo (13 Feb 2022)

It’s been an odd tournament so far all round. 
France beat Ireland but didn’t thrash Italy. 
Wales beat Scotland, who beat England.


----------



## Chromatic (13 Feb 2022)

Beebo said:


> It’s been an odd tournament so far all round.
> France beat Ireland but didn’t thrash Italy.
> Wales beat Scotland, who beat England.


Unless England improve Wales might beat them too.


----------



## Rusty Nails (13 Feb 2022)

Chromatic said:


> Unless England improve Wales might beat them too.


If England offer the chances that they did today that is a possibility, but I'm not holding out any hopes.

Wales will up their game, but so will England.


----------



## Chromatic (13 Feb 2022)

Rusty Nails said:


> If England offer the chances that they did today that is a possibility, but I'm not holding out any hopes.
> 
> Wales will up their game, but so will England.


We play them on the cabbage patch so hopefully that will help see us through.


----------



## Chap sur le velo (18 Feb 2022)

Beebo said:


> It’s been an odd tournament so far all round.
> France beat Ireland but didn’t thrash Italy.
> Wales beat Scotland, who beat England.


Italy usually start relatively well. 
I've been in winning sides and I've been in losing sides. I know in which one is easier to keep your spirits up through the season.

Still feel Scotland and/or possibly Wales will produce at least one big game and a 'surprise' result. 
Hate to think it will play out to form, from here. 
It maybe playing in front of full houses after a gap, gives an even bigger than usual advantage.


----------



## swee'pea99 (26 Feb 2022)

The French have absolutely destroyed Scotland, and at a canter at that. Some of their tries were vintage France, head and shoulders above anything else this six nations. Just wonderful. Dammit. The Grand Slam is surely theirs for the taking


----------



## AndyRM (26 Feb 2022)

It was the tries right before and right after half time that knackered us.


----------



## Dogtrousers (26 Feb 2022)

Listened to that on the radio in the garage while fiddling with my bike. Sounded exciting. May try to catch the highlights.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (26 Feb 2022)

swee'pea99 said:


> The French have absolutely destroyed Scotland, and at a canter at that. Some of their tries were vintage France, head and shoulders above anything else this six nations. Just wonderful. Dammit. The Grand Slam is surely theirs for the taking


Oddly though I don't think Scotland were far off France. They just didn't take their chances. I think that France are good, but beatable.


----------



## Dayvo (26 Feb 2022)

This was a very interesting and moving read. 
https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/60236293
I just about remember the sporting fall-out after the dreadful Bloody Sunday incident.


----------



## downesy (26 Feb 2022)

A good read that , it's astonishing how sport can sometimes help to start building bridges. As an English man with rugby daft Irish parents I knew how much this game being played meant to them.


----------



## Chromatic (26 Feb 2022)

Well, a not very good England beat a not very good Wales in a not very good game refereed by a not very good ref.


----------



## Rusty Nails (26 Feb 2022)

It was a strange game. Despite England being just about the better side they were outscored by three tries to one, and never scored a point by creating anything.

Every one of their points was because of a Welsh mistake..six penalties and one try from possibly the worst lineout throw the past couple of years of any team. (Edit: based on replays, subtly aided by an illegal push on the jumper, but not too many complaints from me as the ref generally had a shocker)

Wales are living off scraps and Eddie Jones is turning good beef into scraps.


----------



## downesy (26 Feb 2022)

Think we just deserved the win (England) , it's all academic though as I think the French have it in the bag.


----------



## Dogtrousers (26 Feb 2022)

A thoroughly exciting last couple of minutes. Shame about the rest of it


----------



## Beebo (26 Feb 2022)

England could easily lose 3 games and end up 5th.


----------



## Chromatic (26 Feb 2022)

Beebo said:


> England could easily lose 3 games and end up 5th.


Again.


----------



## Rusty Nails (26 Feb 2022)

Chromatic said:


> Again.


If they do I cannot see Eddie Jones staying on.


----------



## Chromatic (26 Feb 2022)

Rusty Nails said:


> If they do I cannot see Eddie Jones staying on.


Possibly, but I reckon they'll keep him on for next years World Cup.


----------



## Rusty Nails (26 Feb 2022)

Chromatic said:


> Possibly, but I reckon they'll keep him on for next years World Cup.


That won't cause France, Ireland, NZ or SA to lose any sleep for the World Cup.


----------



## Chap sur le velo (27 Feb 2022)

Absolute farce in Dublin.
Considering what happen the Italian team were really impressive, never giving up. Feel more than usually sorry for the very tired team but questions should be asked about the preparation from their manager(s).
If they haven't been doing it already, I predict the front rows will be spending a lot of time practicing each other's roles. 
With a bit of luck this might lead to wholesale changes, oh and a new government would be great and a euro million jackpot prize too please


----------



## yello (28 Feb 2022)

Must admit, I had to take to the Internet to try and understand wtf was going on re an uncontested scrum and Italy losing another man. I understand the rules now, and what they're trying to achieve, but blimey does that seem harsh.


----------



## AndyRM (28 Feb 2022)

Considering all the advantages they were given yesterday, Ireland didn't really make the most of them, they should have scored a lot more.

I appreciate I may be alone in this, but there always seems to be a weekend when the officials are woeful and weirdly inconsistent. A lot of mistakes were made in all three games, which is frustrating when the opening two weekends the standard was excellent.


----------



## Chromatic (5 Mar 2022)

A good game at Kingsholm this afternoon where the mighty Gloucester eventually saw off Northampton with a second half comeback. Some good tries, particularly Northampton's try from deep in their own 25, even though those in a position to see were of the opinion that it came from a forward pass.


----------



## Chromatic (6 Mar 2022)

Chromatic said:


> A good game at Kingsholm this afternoon where the mighty Gloucester eventually saw off Northampton with a second half comeback. Some good tries, particularly Northampton's try from deep in their own 25, even though those in a position to see were of the opinion that it came from a forward pass.


Just looked at the highlights, the pass looked alright to me.


----------



## Poacher (11 Mar 2022)

Wales 9 France 13.
Where's Max Boyce when you need someone to point at and laugh?


----------



## yello (12 Mar 2022)

I enjoyed that game. I don't support any rugby team as such (though have a thing for Scotland) so can watch these games purely for entertainment value. I think Wales can be well proud of their effort, on another day that would have won them the game - and but for a handling error, may well have last night. Tbh, I thought they were going to get a win, they certainly had enough control.


----------



## Beebo (12 Mar 2022)

Silly high tackle after 1 minute and England’s chances of winning are over. 

How angry would you be if you paid £100 for a ticket?


----------



## Dayvo (12 Mar 2022)

Beebo said:


> Silly high tackle after 1 minute and England’s chances of winning are over.
> 
> How angry would you be if you paid £100 for a ticket?


Not high, but leading with the head.
However, most tackles appear to be made with the head making contact at the same time as the shoulders on the opponent.


----------



## delb0y (12 Mar 2022)

For many month's now I've been getting more and more fed up with the amount of clear forward passes that are being let go. I assume it's an unofficial decision by the PTB to make the game more entertaining for the occasional viewer. But in my view it's ruining it.


----------



## Rusty Nails (12 Mar 2022)

Dayvo said:


> Not high, but leading with the head.
> However, most tackles appear to be made with the head making contact at the same time as the shoulders on the opponent.


This time I thought the head made contact marginally before he got his arms round. It was tough at that stage of the match but the rules were changed to be tough on head to head contact and you always take a risk with standing up straight tackles.

England have done really well since then, but the extra effort might tell in the second half.


----------



## Chromatic (12 Mar 2022)

delb0y said:


> For many month's now I've been getting more and more fed up with the amount of clear forward passes that are being let go. I assume it's an unofficial decision by the PTB to make the game more entertaining for the occasional viewer. But in my view it's ruining it.


I think you're nit-picking, it was only a marginal 3 or 4 yards forward.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (12 Mar 2022)

Wow, I thoroughly enjoyed that. Obviously I'd have preferred a different result, but there's nor argument over the outcome. They can all walk away with their head high.


----------



## HobbesOnTour (12 Mar 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> They can all walk away with their head high.


Was a high head not the cause of the red card? **


----------



## Beebo (12 Mar 2022)

England have had a very mixed 6 Nations. 
But for 2 crazy events they would be undefeated. 
The Cowan Dickie knock on and today’s tackle both cost them the game. 
It will be interesting to see how they play against France. They will need 15 men to get close.


----------



## Rusty Nails (12 Mar 2022)

Beebo said:


> England have had a very mixed 6 Nations.
> But for 2 crazy events they would be undefeated.
> The Cowan Dickie knock on and today’s tackle both cost them the game.
> It will be interesting to see how they play against France. They will need 15 men to get close.


They also need to do a bit more than rely on penalties to keep the score ticking along against France. 

Against teams other than Italy they have scored just two tries and conceded nine, and I cannot see France with Sean Edwards as defence coach giving away so many penalties.

But if England can replicate the intensity of today they're in with a chance.


----------



## swee'pea99 (12 Mar 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> Wow, I thoroughly enjoyed that. Obviously I'd have preferred a different result, but there's nor argument over the outcome. They can all walk away with their head high.


Absolutely! That was epic! What a match! 

Fantastic play, speed and ferocity, stonewall defence, some truly astonishing end to end and back again sequences the like of which I can't remember, it just never let up from start to finish. They say it can be harder to beat 10 men than 11, and England played like a team that felt wronged by the letter of the law. All credit to Ireland for a deserved win, overall. But it certainly wasn't the mauling I was expecting after minute two.

Terrible result; great, great game.


----------



## Chap sur le velo (13 Mar 2022)

_"I thought that England were only correctly awarded three or four of those penalties, and I thought two or three of them should have gone Ireland’s way.

To be honest I thought England were very lucky to get some of those penalties, especially in the last two scrums before half-time. England ran those scrums around, I don’t know if they were looking for the penalty intentionally, but for me especially the last two I didn’t think they were driving straight, it looked like they were running around and not square.

When you review the scrum and look at it, the actual scrum penalty count should probably have been 4-2 or even 3-3, so I’m glad the yellow card didn’t come from it because I thought definitely two penalties should have gone to Ireland.

Although I thought there weren't six penalties against Ireland, there were in the game so you can understand why some people are asking why there wasn’t a yellow card - it’s a valid point. From that fifth or sixth penalty you’re expecting a warning to come. But I’m glad it didn’t._"

Nigel Owens comments in Telegraph

So England produced a spirited response in adversity ROARED on by the crowd. Without the penalty count they'd have come away with nothing to cheer about. The half backs did look lively and tried some runs but they went nowhere - need more ideas and settled centres. And yet you know as soon as they are fit an older and slower Farrell and Tuilagi will be recalled, stalling further progress. Heaven knows but Eddie will probably believe his own mad utterings and start Nowell at 6! I haven't see much progress this year from England.

Ireland, not at their clinical best, score 4 tries and win at fortress Twickenham. They are developing a system and confidence to keep with it when under pressure. Look at Connor Murray - under Schmidt he slowed everything down and controlled the game. Now he comes on and keeps the pace up. Ireland had a bad 15mins at the start of the 6 nations and have 'won' every important stat since. Now it depends if other teams can figure out how to slow their game down and dominate the pack. Never expected them to win both away games, so it's been a decent 6 Nations 

Can't see France losing next week but I'm worried that they are heading down a blind corridor. About twice a game they produce sensational flowing play that blows the opposition away. This season instead of building a team to exploit that, they've gone down the route of picking the biggest forwards and having 6 more giant replacements on the bench. This season despite winning every game () they've seemed to stutter and I hope they don't lose their way and get bogged down playing attritional rugby. If they can put together a complete performance, I can't see anyone living with them. They have the talent to become a really great team.


----------



## Rusty Nails (13 Mar 2022)

Chap sur le velo said:


> _"I thought that England were only correctly awarded three or four of those penalties, and I thought two or three of them should have gone Ireland’s way.
> 
> To be honest I thought England were very lucky to get some of those penalties, especially in the last two scrums before half-time. England ran those scrums around, I don’t know if they were looking for the penalty intentionally, but for me especially the last two I didn’t think they were driving straight, it looked like they were running around and not square.
> 
> ...


Interesting point from Nigel Owens, who actually knows a lot about the scrummaging laws and how they are got around. At that level the possible slight difference in strength of the forwards rarely results in such a one-way sequence of turned scrums.

Lawes showed he is much better in the second row than the back row and I suspect he might stay there despite Jones not always doing the obvious.

France seem to be copying the South Africa "bomb squad" which helped win them the World Cup, and I can't see them changing a winning format this close to the next World Cup.


----------



## matticus (15 Mar 2022)

Beebo said:


> Silly high tackle after 1 minute and England’s chances of winning are over.
> 
> How angry would you be if you paid £100 for a ticket?


As @swee'pea99 described so well, it was a very entertaining match (even as an England fan). There was about 20minutes when I put the chances about equal, the 15 men in green were clearly rattled.
The match of the weekend ... apart from the Wales game! That was a GREAT contest.


----------



## swee'pea99 (15 Mar 2022)

matticus said:


> As @swee'pea99 described so well, it was a very entertaining match (even as an England fan). There was about 20minutes when I put the chances about equal, the 15 men in green were clearly rattled.
> The match of the weekend ... apart from the Wales game! That was a GREAT contest.


Another epic! Sadly for me it was slightly spoiled by the fact that I didn't get to see it till Sunday, by which time inevitably I'd bumped into the score, which does take quite a lot of the juice out of the thing. Again, I honestly thought Wales were going to get simple outplayed by France, 15+point margin without getting out of third, especially after that early try: vintage, gorgeous, French rugby at its best. But then, non. Ironically enough, French captures it best: ils ne passeront pas. Wales dug in, they held, they would not yield. And then they came back. The momentum shifted again, and suddenly it was France who were looking rattled, and fumbling. But they didn't yield either. Titanic. Rugby at its best.

I honestly can't recall a 6 Nations to match this year's. There really hasn't been a dud (Italy aside, sorry but), and quite a lot of the games have been absolute belters. And France v England with the winning/denying of a grand slam as a finale! What did we do to deserve this?


----------



## Rusty Nails (16 Mar 2022)

swee'pea99 said:


> sorry but


I hadn’t realised you were Welsh until this gave you away


----------



## swee'pea99 (16 Mar 2022)

Rusty Nails said:


> I hadn’t realised you were Welsh until this gave you away


Good spot. Except antipodeans do it too, and my dad was a kiwi.


----------



## downesy (17 Mar 2022)

As do the good citizens of Greenock


----------



## Chap sur le velo (17 Mar 2022)

More tinkering from Jones whilst the French recall one after covid and go back to their strongest 15. Hopefully his job is on the line and a really bad result will have consequences. I just can't see them avoiding a second year where they finish above Italy ....and no one else.


----------



## Poacher (19 Mar 2022)

Poacher said:


> Wales 9 France 13.
> Where's Max Boyce when you need someone to point at and laugh?


Wales 21 Italy 22.
Yeah!!!!!


----------



## matticus (19 Mar 2022)

Chap sur le velo said:


> More tinkering from Jones whilst the French recall one after covid and go back to their strongest 15. Hopefully his job is on the line and a really bad result will have consequences. I just can't see them avoiding a second year where they finish above Italy ....and no one else.


Well Italy have solved that problem for them!


----------



## Bonefish Blues (19 Mar 2022)

Absolutely brilliant try to win it.


----------



## Chromatic (19 Mar 2022)

A deserved win by Italy, great try to win it!


----------



## Poacher (19 Mar 2022)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Absolutely brilliant try to win it.





Chromatic said:


> A deserved win by Italy, great try to win it!


Despite which, Jonathan Davies predictably awards Man of the Match to Josh Adams.


----------



## Chromatic (19 Mar 2022)

Poacher said:


> Despite which, Jonathan Davies predictably awards Man of the Match to Josh Adams.


He awarded it before the try apparently, they do tend to make the announcement before the match finishes. Fair play to Josh Adams, he handed the MOM medal to Capuozzo, a lovely gesture.


----------



## swee'pea99 (19 Mar 2022)

Another absolute belter! Viva il rugby Italian! What. A. Match. And what a finale. And what a classy move from Josh Adams for the cherry on the cake. And to think I'd written this off in advance as Dud of the Day.



And two cracking final matches in prospect...


----------



## Grant Fondo (19 Mar 2022)

swee'pea99 said:


> Another absolute belter! Viva il rugby Italian! What. A. Match. And what a finale. And what a classy move from Josh Adams for the cherry on the cake. And to think I'd written this off in advance as Dud of the Day.
> 
> 
> 
> And two cracking final matches in prospect...


Yep, I was the same, not a chance of beating Wales in Cardiff surely? Fantastic by Italy.


----------



## Chromatic (19 Mar 2022)

Right, here we go.
Allez France!


----------



## AndyRM (19 Mar 2022)

Brilliant by Italy.

Poor from Scotland.

Allez Les Bleus!


----------



## Chap sur le velo (19 Mar 2022)

Well if Italy can beat Wales then England can surely ....

Hats off to them they are having a go and playing the best Rugby I've seen from them this season.


----------



## Chromatic (19 Mar 2022)

Formidable!


----------



## Beebo (19 Mar 2022)

Well played France. A deserved Grand Slam. 
England tested them. But France are very good at the moment. 
I genuinely believe England are better than their table position.


----------



## Rusty Nails (19 Mar 2022)

Poacher said:


> Wales 9 France 13.
> Where's Max Boyce when you need someone to point at and laugh?





Poacher said:


> Wales 21 Italy 22.
> Yeah!!!!!



France 25 England 13

Where's Poacher when you need someone to point at and laugh?









Not a good look is it, mocking another team's defeat?


----------



## downesy (19 Mar 2022)

Well played France deserved grand slam winners, England great resolve 100% effort I'm just not seeing what we're trying to do.
I've enjoyed more games this 6 nations than I have done for a while, all the teams have had moments of brilliance, brewing nicely for the world cup.


----------



## Beebo (19 Mar 2022)

Rusty Nails said:


> France 25 England 13
> 
> Where's Poacher when you need someone to point at and laugh?
> 
> ...


I don’t like gloating. But losing to Italy at home is poor. 

England played well in Paris. 

England should have beaten Scotland and Ireland, but for silly cards. They are better than the table suggests.


----------



## Chap sur le velo (19 Mar 2022)

Agree about enjoyment. Teams seem to have figured out how to attack and create opportunities.

Great final day. Wasn't going to watch Wales Italy but checked out score at half time and so glad I stayed with it. Hopefully they don't have to wait as long for the next victory. Stunning try, 

Ireland Scotland, after a thunderous start from Scotland, Ireland got into their groove. The most bonus points, easily the highest PD and despite a lousy opening 15 mins. A very satisfactory season. Next season, England and France have to play them in Dublin. 

France England was much closer than expected. I hope Jones takes a long break this summer and starts 9, 10. 11 and 12 for a couple of more games and allows them to grow. Sadly I expect more tinkering. Having the props drop deep to run the kicks back was something new to me and I expect to see more of this next year (albeit some teams will use 2nd rows etc.). Cant agree with the above comment that they are better than their position, one performance does not a season make. They were beaten by Scotland who were clinical and absolutely thrashed by a record score at Twickenham by Ireland - playing with 14 arguably gave them a lift but apart from bossing the ref's interpretation of scrums, they were never going to score!

Chapeau to Les Bleus. High expectations were delivered and that confidence will go forward with them to the next world cup. At their best they are irresistible and unstoppable. I wait to see how they develop and cope with the expectations of a home World Cup.

Love the Six Nations, and it was a very good year.. The sunshine today went a little way to compensating for the end of the great winter ritual.


----------



## Chromatic (19 Mar 2022)

Beebo said:


> I don’t like gloating. But losing to Italy at home is poor.
> 
> England played well in Paris.
> 
> England should have beaten Scotland and Ireland, but for silly cards. They are better than the table suggests.


We came third in the table, I don't think we can claim to be better than France and Ireland at the moment so I reckon it's a fair reflection of where we are right now.
Mind you I agree we would likely have beaten Scotland if it wasn't for Cowan Dickie's volleyball team audition moment.


----------



## Rusty Nails (19 Mar 2022)

Beebo said:


> I don’t like gloating. But losing to Italy at home is poor.
> 
> England played well in Paris.
> 
> England should have beaten Scotland and Ireland, but for silly cards. They are better than the table suggests.


I don't like gloating either, and my comments were in poor taste, but I was just being sarcastic given Poacher's attitude in the quoted posts, hence my last sentence.

Wales were awful, gave away silly penalties, couldn't string any extended good passages of play together, and kicked badly, especially the kick that gave that last try away. Italy also played better than I have seen them do for a long time, and didn't fall apart when under pressure.

The successes of the Wales team in recent years has hidden the fact that Regional rugby in Wales and the management of the WRU is in a very poor state,and there is not a lot of talent outside the national team.

The Six-nations tables and World Cups are always full of should have, would have, could have, but didn't. I would say the tables don't lie, but then I remember that Wales were champions last year.


----------



## AndyRM (19 Mar 2022)

England and Wales were woeful this year.


----------



## Grant Fondo (20 Mar 2022)

Fabulous Six nations ... and well played France (and Italy!)


----------



## swee'pea99 (20 Mar 2022)

Best last day to the best six nations I can remember. Bravo to France - worthy Grand Slammers. Roll on the World Cup!


----------



## Poacher (20 Mar 2022)

Rusty Nails said:


> France 25 England 13
> 
> Where's Poacher when you need someone to point at and laugh?
> 
> ...


Point and laugh to your heart's content!
My comment referred specifically to the sneering smuggit Max Boyce, who lost no opportunity to gloat when Wales were top dogs, and I rejoiced in the all too rare success of the underdogs Italy.

As for your lazy assumption that I support England unquestioningly, my patriotic feelings evaporated when my compatriots shat on my retirement plans in 2016, and I transferred my allegiance to France. When the Marseillaise was played, I turned the TV volume up from 40 to 64 and sang along lustily, even the very dark middle section:

_Ils viennent jusque dans vos bras
Égorger vos fils, vos compagnes !_

Allez les bleus!


----------



## gavroche (20 Mar 2022)

Just recovered from celebrating a wonderful and well deserved Grand Slam from France. We certainly are the best team in Europe presently and hopefully in the world soon. Allez les bleus! 🍾🍾
I was pleased for Italy too and their try was superb. I also appreciated the great gesture from the Welsh player who gave the Italian try scorer his man of the match medal. 
Overall, it has been a fantastic 6 Nations tournament.


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## Rusty Nails (20 Mar 2022)

Poacher said:


> Point and laugh to your heart's content!
> My comment referred specifically to th*e sneering smuggit Max Boyce, *who lost no opportunity to gloat when Wales were top dogs, and I rejoiced in the all too rare success of the underdogs Italy.
> 
> As for your lazy assumption that I support England unquestioningly, my patriotic feelings evaporated when my compatriots shat on my retirement plans in 2016, and I transferred my allegiance to France. When the Marseillaise was played, I turned the TV volume up from 40 to 64 and sang along lustily, even the very dark middle section:
> ...


I never assumed that you supported England unquestioningly. Apologies for assuming that, apparently being from Nottingham, you supported England.

I dislike it when people appear to take more pleasure in another Country’s loss than in their own team’s win. Was it a coincidence that your two comments were gloating over Wales’ losses?

And if you still harbour some dislike of Max Boyce you need to move on. He hasn’t even been popular in Wales this century, except when old Welsh rugby farts sing his songs when drunk. He was rubbish 50 years ago and has not improved with age.

I am lucky in that being 1/4 Italian I soon got over my disappointment with Wales’ loss.


----------



## Poacher (20 Mar 2022)

Pause for thought, and some ugly self-recognition.

My antipathy towards Wales is probably not a coincidence, as you rightly surmised. Much of it stems from my playing days, as does my love for gallic flair from seeing Jean-Pierre Rives and Serge Blanco enthralling the crowd at Twickenham.

I played for a works team when Lincoln still had a few heavy engineering firms. We played at county third team level, and each year played against Market Rasen, sometimes their third team, sometimes their seconds, but invariably recognised their first team players temporarily demoted for the occasion, because the young farmers couldn't bear to lose to a team of oiks. I particularly remember Dobbs, their first team fly-half, and Chamberlin* (sic), a lock, both also three counties (Notts Lincs & Derby) regulars. MR also insisted on having their own referee in preference to a pool appointed one, a cadaverous-looking proudly Welsh daffodil**, who was crooked as a nine bob watch.

I jumped against Chamberlin, and he was always lifted, contrary to the laws in those far-off days, and despite him being 3" taller. This was pointed out to the ref, who pointedly ignored it. I was later on the floor on the wrong side of a ruck, and called the ref's attention to illegal handling. For my pains (and it was painful), one of their players stood on my neck and raked my right ear, after which I played on until half time before being taken to hospital in the same ambulance as our scrum-half, who had been knocked unconscious off the ball, and actually stopped breathing in the ambulance. Needless to say, they weren't penalised. I have the scars from a dozen stitches holding my ear back together. In another match, our outweighed but technically superior pack pushed over from a five metre scrum, and our scrum-half touched the ball down over the line, in the scrum, for a try. The Welsh daffodil disallowed it and tried to award a penalty against us, until our (Welsh) captain, who knew the laws inside out, let him know in no uncertain terms, that he would lead his team off the field, report to the relevant authorities, and ensure that the Welsh daffodil never refereed another game. White-faced, the ref awarded the try, to his team's astonishment and consternation. So yes, there's some history there.

I recognise skill and fair play, but note that Alun Wynn Jones is always prepared to bend both the laws and the referee's ear, also that, to my knowledge, Jonathan Davies has never awarded MoM to non-Welsh player. Hell, if he was given that responsibility in a Scotland Ireland game he would name a Welshman!

*When submitting a match report for the local paper, I always made sure he was called Chamberlain.
** Yes, I did type daffodil (of the narcissus family), on purpose.

Edit: Wow, that's some grudge I can carry! It would be an admission of failure to drop it now!

Edit2: I recognise and salute Josh Adams' magnanimous gesture. He's gone up massively in my estimation.


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## Rusty Nails (20 Mar 2022)

Poacher said:


> Pause for thought, and some ugly self-recognition.
> 
> My antipathy towards Wales is probably not a coincidence, as you rightly surmised. Much of it stems from my playing days, as does my love for gallic flair from seeing Jean-Pierre Rives and Serge Blanco enthralling the crowd at Twickenham.
> 
> ...



What can I say? That's some grudge against a country because of one referee 40? years ago. Remind me never to get on your wrong side. Let it go if you don't want it to destroy you.






Alan Wyn Jones it must be said is the only international player/captain who bends the laws and the refs' ears. The absolute bounder!

It would be useful if, rather than your already admitted antipathy to Wales, there was firm evidence, other than your unbiased memory, of Jonathan Davies's heinous crimes in selecting player of the match. I have never been interested enough to keep count as I always get annoyed by his whine so I will accept your judgement.


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## AndyRM (21 Mar 2022)

Two things are guaranteed with Jonathan Davies' commentary - he'll get so high pitched that eventually only dogs can hear him, but before that he'll have yelled 'Numbers' for no apparent reason.

I have been thinking about @Beebo's comment about England being better than the table suggests. I'm not having a go, but I don't see how. They scored less tries than the last 6 Nations and won the same number of games. Eddie Jones has his favourites, and will play them regardless of what the game actually requires.

England could, and given their resources, should be consistently winning absolutely everything.


----------



## Beebo (21 Mar 2022)

AndyRM said:


> Two things are guaranteed with Jonathan Davies' commentary - he'll get so high pitched that eventually only dogs can hear him, but before that he'll have yelled 'Numbers' for no apparent reason.
> 
> I have been thinking about @Beebo's comment about England being better than the table suggests. I'm not having a go, but I don't see how. They scored less tries than the last 6 Nations and won the same number of games. Eddie Jones has his favourites, and will play them regardless of what the game actually requires.
> 
> England could, and given their resources, should be consistently winning absolutely everything.


I think England were probably the 3rd best team overall so im going to amend my comment about the table and say England’s total points was probably lower than it should have been. France and Ireland were well out in front. England should have beaten Scotland by more than just points difference.

france 25
Ireland 21
England 10
Scotland 10
Wales 7
Italy 4


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## matticus (21 Mar 2022)

AndyRM said:


> Two things are guaranteed with Jonathan Davies' commentary - he'll get so high pitched that eventually only dogs can hear him, but before that he'll have yelled 'Numbers' for no apparent reason.


Personally I love it when he shouts "Chance". Nothing else, just that one word.


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## AndyRM (21 Mar 2022)

Beebo said:


> I think England were probably the 3rd best team overall so im going to amend my comment about the table and say England’s total points was probably lower than it should have been. France and Ireland were well out in front. England should have beaten Scotland by more than just points difference.
> 
> france 25
> Ireland 21
> ...



A shame then that England didn't actually manage to beat Scotland...

Personally I thought they had their best game against Ireland.


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## matticus (21 Mar 2022)

AndyRM said:


> A shame then that England didn't actually manage to beat Scotland...
> 
> Personally I thought they had their best game against Ireland.


Yes.
(although they're probably a victim of the Must-Beat-England philosophy in Scotland, which of course the rugger team will deny :P )

I'm a fan of ties being determined by result-between-the-two-teams - it seems harsh for SCO to finish below the team they beat.

Even though overall they felt like the 3rd best team - they gave Ireland and France a good fight, and it was the cards that really did for them.


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## Dogtrousers (21 Mar 2022)

matticus said:


> I'm a fan of ties being determined by result-between-the-two-teams - it seems harsh for SCO to finish below the team they beat.



I'm not a fan of bonus points or points difference or any kind of tie breaker. Should just be done on win/draw points alone and if two teams are tied they are tied, even if it means a shared championship.

If it wasn't for all the bonus point malarkey it's arguable that Wales wouldn't have been so brainless. But that's being a bit mean to Italy.


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## matticus (28 Mar 2022)

So, onto the Womens tournament.

I thought Sco-Eng was quite entertaining, despite Eng never being less than clear favourites. Very surprised to see a plastic pitch - is this now a thing in the odd-shaped ball game??

Perhaps Ire-Wal will be a better contest ... eh, where can I watch it? Maybe listen to it then ...

Hmmm. Seems like the England game was the only match considered by the broadcasters


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## AndyRM (28 Mar 2022)

I'm not really a fan of the Women's 6 Nations; until all the teams are fully professional it's just not even close to a level playing field, so it's barely a contest.

As for artificial pitches, there are a few used in Scotland these days - and not just for rugby, there are loads of football teams which use them. People moan about them all the time, but they make sense IMO.


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## matticus (28 Mar 2022)

I'd been aware of professional soccer using it since Luton in 1985 (IIRC) - I somehow assumed there were problems with using it for Rugby. Apparently not!


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## Chromatic (28 Mar 2022)

matticus said:


> Very surprised to see a plastic pitch - is this now a thing in the odd-shaped ball game??


Saracens, Worcester, Newcastle and the mighty Gloucester all play on artificial pitches in the Premiership.


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## AndyRM (28 Mar 2022)

matticus said:


> I'd been aware of professional soccer using it since Luton in 1985 (IIRC) - I somehow assumed there were problems with using it for Rugby. Apparently not!



Modern artificial surfaces are hugely improved to what they were back in the day. 

Most pitches are a hybrid of grass and synthetic these days in any case.


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## matticus (28 Mar 2022)

Cheers!


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## Beebo (6 Apr 2022)

Tom Smith the Scotland captain and British Lion has died aged 50. 
He would probably be too small to play prop in the modern game, but he was so destructive. 
He was the guest of honour in November at Murrayfield in the pitch with his wife and children.


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## downesy (7 Apr 2022)

Rip Tom Smith small in stature but a giant of a man


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## Poacher (16 Apr 2022)

Very entertaining game between Harlequins and Montpellier so far; six tries in the first half, with some real end to end stuff.


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## dave r (16 Apr 2022)

Poacher said:


> Very entertaining game between Harlequins and Montpellier so far; six tries in the first half, with some real end to end stuff.



We've been watching it, excellent rugby, the try Smith started that went most of the length of the pitch was a corker.


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## Chromatic (23 Apr 2022)

delb0y said:


> For many month's now I've been getting more and more fed up with the amount of clear forward passes that are being let go. I assume it's an unofficial decision by the PTB to make the game more entertaining for the occasional viewer. But in my view it's ruining it.



Forward passes seemingly allowed in the Harlequins v Leicester game this afternoon.


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## delb0y (24 Apr 2022)

"It came out of the back of the hand" appears to be the rationale. I'd simplify the rule and say if the ball travels forward in relation to the pitch then it's forward. I still maintain than the PTB are intentionally allowing many of the laws to be broken and disregarded in an effort to speed up the game and make it more attractive to, say, soccer fans. It'll all end in tears.


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## pawl (24 Apr 2022)

Chromatic said:


> Forward passes seemingly allowed in the Harlequins v Leicester game this afternoon.



I noticed that.several times I thought that was a forward pass Good game though.Fords kicking was way off today

I will admit I got fed up with the football where every decision is questioned


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## ClichéGuevara (24 Apr 2022)

The women's 6 nations have been a good watch so far, and the scorelines don't necessarily represent the games.


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## Beebo (25 Apr 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> The women's 6 nations have been a good watch so far, and the scorelines don't necessarily represent the games.



Women’s rugby is great. 
The game isn’t bogged down with the tight defences and sheer physicality of the game.


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## ClichéGuevara (25 Apr 2022)

Beebo said:


> Women’s rugby is great.
> The game isn’t bogged down with the tight defences and sheer physicality of the game.



Certainly not as much, but the English pack is formidable. Having said that, a slightly built Irish lass caught my eye, and I was wondering how she'd cope, just as she tackled one of the forwards head on, lifting her bodily off the floor and driving her back a fair number of yards.


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## Beebo (25 Apr 2022)

delb0y said:


> "It came out of the back of the hand" appears to be the rationale. I'd simplify the rule and say if the ball travels forward in relation to the pitch then it's forward. I still maintain than the PTB are intentionally allowing many of the laws to be broken and disregarded in an effort to speed up the game and make it more attractive to, say, soccer fans. It'll all end in tears.



A flatish pass whilst running at pace will always actually travel forward in real terms. 

I favour an approach of does it look right? A bit like straight arm bowling in cricket. It’s been proved that almost everyone bends their arm a bit, but you know when it looks wrong. 

But I agree that lots of passes do look wrong by my old fashioned standards. 

But then the game changes. every ruck and line out would be illegal by the standards of 20 years ago.


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## Rusty Nails (25 Apr 2022)

Beebo said:


> Women’s rugby is great.
> The game isn’t bogged down with the tight defences and sheer physicality of the game.



I have watched women's rugby more this year because of the TV coverage and it is attractive, probably because as yet it Isn't fully professional at club level. England are so much better than most international teams because of the extra time they have had professionalism at international level, allowing them to become much fitter and stronger than the other teams. I hope that, once most international teams become professional that sheer bulk and strength don't begin to take over and change their game like it has the men's.

I have started watching our local village team play in the local leagues and that is also a lot more open than the game at top level, and the teams in those leagues would most likely beat the women's international teams because of the difference in speed and strength, if not in basic skill levels or tactical thinking, but that doesn't take away from the competitiveness and the more open play of the women's game.


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## Chap sur le velo (27 May 2022)

Rugby on terrestrial TV? 

Tomorrow late PM Chanel 4 are showing Ireland Leinster vs La Rochelle (managed by the next Ireland manager but 2!

The top of European Challenge Club Rugby. Enjoy.


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## DRM (28 May 2022)

Also live today, 3pm kick off, on BBC One Rugby League challenge cup final, should be a good close game Huddersfield Giants v Wigan Warriors.


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## Chap sur le velo (28 May 2022)

Wow. Started out as a firecracker and then became the longest arm wrestle I've ever seen. 

Many, many months since Leinster failed to score a try. Somehow I feel when they look back they will find La Rochelle were in the driving seat throughout. 

Engrosssing.


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## Chromatic (28 May 2022)

Chap sur le velo said:


> Wow. Started out as a firecracker and then became the longest arm wrestle I've ever seen.
> 
> Many, many months since Leinster failed to score a try. Somehow I feel when they look back they will find La Rochelle were in the driving seat throughout.
> 
> Engrosssing.



Excellent result, I'm glad La Rochelle won.


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## DRM (29 May 2022)

DRM said:


> Also live today, 3pm kick off, on BBC One Rugby League challenge cup final, should be a good close game Huddersfield Giants v Wigan Warriors.



So that was a proper tussle as predicted, Wigan won, 16-14, but went right to the last minute, still think Huddersfield were the better side, perhaps the missed kicks and loss of Hill would have edged it, but it was one hell of a game.


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## Beebo (17 Jul 2022)

Well done to Ireland and England for winning a series in the Southern Hemisphere. 

But the forward pass rule, or lack of, is making a mockery of the game. How many flat Aussie passes went unchallenged in the England game?


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## AndyRM (17 Jul 2022)

Despite losing, I thought Wales were good against South Africa the other day. 

We chucked it against Argentina, and I think it might be time for Townsend to go, But who comes in?

And beyond that, who do we bin Italy for in the Six Nations? They've had their chance. And are useless, despite a couple of great players over their involvement. Spain perhaps? Romania?


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## Chromatic (17 Jul 2022)

AndyRM said:


> And beyond that, who do we bin Italy for in the Six Nations? They've had their chance. And are useless, despite a couple of great players over their involvement. Spain perhaps? Romania?



Georgia are probably the next best team, indeed, they recently beat Italy and have overtaken them in the rankings, although I don't know how strong a side Italy put out for that match. 
However, Georgia would probably fare no better than Italy in the six nations when it matters.


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## AndyRM (17 Jul 2022)

Chromatic said:


> Georgia are probably the next best team, indeed, they recently beat Italy and have overtaken them in the rankings, although I don't know how strong a side Italy put out for that match.
> However, Georgia would probably fare no better than Italy in the six nations when it matters.



Yeah, I should have mentioned Georgia too. Decent side.

I reckon the best/fairest way would be to go back to the 5 Nations, but have a spot available for another nation based on a qualifying tournament.


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## Dogtrousers (17 Jul 2022)

I remember watching an Ireland - Georgia RWC match in a pub quite a few years ago, and Georgia came pretty close to winning. 

Not that that means anything now.


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## Beebo (29 Oct 2022)

The mighty Japan ran NZ very close this morning. 
17-21at half time
31-38 at full time. 
Are NZ still a bit suspect or were Japan very good?


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## AndyRM (29 Oct 2022)

Beebo said:


> The mighty Japan ran NZ very close this morning.
> 17-21at half time
> 31-38 at full time.
> Are NZ still a bit suspect or were Japan very good?



Both.


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## AndyRM (7 Nov 2022)

Surely Jones' jacket has to be on a shaky peg...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63536777

England's thug rugby is yesterday's news.


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## Beebo (19 Nov 2022)

I didn’t see a draw coming when we were 14-0 down.


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## dave r (19 Nov 2022)

Beebo said:


> I didn’t see a draw coming when we were 14-0 down.



I was watching the rugby league when I checked the half time score, I didn't expect to look later and see a draw either,


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## Dogtrousers (19 Nov 2022)

On my way home from Twickenham. My record against NZ is pretty good. Two draws and one loss.


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## rualexander (20 Nov 2022)

ABs threw that one away unfortunately, 🙄😔


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## Grant Fondo (20 Nov 2022)

rualexander said:


> ABs threw that one away unfortunately, 🙄😔



Aye, but why didn't we at least try for the win? Cheeky drop kick, just something ... not happy with that.


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## Dogtrousers (20 Nov 2022)

Grant Fondo said:


> Aye, but why didn't we at least try for the win? Cheeky drop kick, just something ... not happy with that.



Because a very possible - probable even - outcome would have been two phases, penalty NZ, NZ win.

I was more than happy with a draw that seemed impossible only 9 (game clock) minutes earlier. 

Unromantic, I know. In a knock out competition the gamble might have been worth taking. But in a one off match - nah, take the draw.

At the time I was a wee bit disappointed that there was no attempt at a fairytale win, but that's as nothing to how pissed off I would have been if they had handed victory back to NZ.


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## Beebo (20 Nov 2022)

Dogtrousers said:


> Because a very possible - probable even - outcome would have been two phases, penalty NZ, NZ win.
> 
> I was more than happy with a draw that seemed impossible only 9 (game clock) minutes earlier.
> 
> ...



Exactly my thoughts too. 
It was the correct decision, but didn’t look great at the time.


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## Grant Fondo (20 Nov 2022)

Yeah, i guess so. Not sure risk managing a draw is the best watch ever, but agree with what a great fightback that was.


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## Chap sur le velo (27 Nov 2022)

Great fight back that left me feeling, somehow managed to avoid a loss. 
Positive memories would have stemmed if somehow they'd managed a win?

Eddy Jones remains England's biggest problem. He still has time to try another 30 players before the world cup.


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## Dogtrousers (27 Nov 2022)

Autumn conclusions
Ireland are very good
France are pretty good
NZ are not at their best, but still pretty good
RSA are RSA. Rassie Erasmus is continuting the fine tradition of utter nobheads in RSA officials.
Australia are Australia Not great but hard to beat
England are not good. 9 good mins vs 14 man NZ is not enough. It was fun to watch, though.
Wales are poor
Scotland are Scotland. Could have run an under-par NZ close (or closer) had they not handed them some gifts.
Georgia need to be given more chances to play


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## AndyRM (5 Dec 2022)

A backward step from Wales, literally...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63770196


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## Chap sur le velo (6 Dec 2022)

This is becoming even more like the football.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...ked-with-steve-borthwick-lined-up-for-england



I don't follow other team sports. Is this the how e.g. American Football, Baseball, Basketball,Cricket Tec operate?
Presumably the savings mean two large layouts in a sport that is financially struggling through poor management and the covid shutdowns?

PS Stephen Jones in the ST was suggesting Garland was the answer to England's problems. I've long wondered how he keeps his job.


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## Beebo (6 Dec 2022)

Chap sur le velo said:


> This is becoming even more like the football.



Jones has been the head coach since 2015. That’s a very long time in any sport. 

CEOs in business usually only last 3-4 years, it’s natural to run out of steam at some point.


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## Dogtrousers (6 Dec 2022)

I think Wayne Pivac may be available.


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## dave r (6 Dec 2022)

Eddie Jones has gone.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63801857


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## AndyRM (6 Dec 2022)

No real surprise. Been past his sell by for 18 months or so, playing attritional rugby. Be interesting to see who they get in.


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## T4tomo (6 Dec 2022)

AndyRM said:


> No real surprise. Been past his sell by for 18 months or so, playing attritional rugby. Be interesting to see who they get in.



Steve Borthwick once they got it all the paperwork agreed.


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## matticus (6 Dec 2022)

AndyRM said:


> Been past his sell by for 18 months or so, playing attritional rugby. Be interesting to see who they get in.



Is it Bazball time?!?


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## Slick (6 Dec 2022)

I recently attended a function who had Sir Clive Woodward as the guest speaker, and what a speaker he was, great to listen to. Spoke at length of the DNA of a champion, which was fascinating and described how he would prepare for tournaments and individual games which again, was fascinating. His take on it is, Steve Borthwick is the man for the job and Kevin Sinfield should be part of his coaching staff as the defensive coach. Obviously just an opinion, but when someone of his stature shares his opinion, individuals tend to listen.


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## Rusty Nails (6 Dec 2022)

Slick said:


> I recently attended a function who had Sir Clive Woodward as the guest speaker, and what a speaker he was, great to listen to. Spoke at length of the DNA of a champion, which was fascinating and described how he would prepare for tournaments and individual games which again, was fascinating. His take on it is, Steve Borthwick is the man for the job and Kevin Sinfield should be part of his coaching staff as the defensive coach. Obviously just an opinion, but when someone of his stature shares his opinion, individuals tend to listen.



Did he ever manage a World Cup winning team?

Modest chap, he never mentions it...........more than 20 times every article he writes or TV programme he is on.

Unsurprisingly he never mentions his disastrous tour of NZ as coach of the Lions in 2005, which they lost 3-0. Did he explain how he prepared for that?

He should be listened to as a once successful manager, but has clearly not got all the answers to pass on to his successors.


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## Slick (6 Dec 2022)

Rusty Nails said:


> Did he ever manage a World Cup winning team?
> 
> Modest chap, he never mentions it...........more than 20 times every article he writes or TV programme he is on.
> 
> ...



I really don't believe anyone has all the answers, but I do believe he knows what it takes to build a winning team, even now.

I don't think he would be the type to shy away from failure, that's how most of us learn and can't see him being that different.


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## Rusty Nails (6 Dec 2022)

Slick said:


> I really don't believe anyone has all the answers, but I do believe he knows what it takes to build a winning team, even now.
> 
> I don't think he would be the type to shy away from failure, that's how most of us learn and can't see him being that different.



There are many managers who know how to build a winning team, including even Eddie Jones once upon a time. The problem is repeating that success and that shows the managers who really do have what it takes.

As far as shying away from failure is concerned, how, in the talk you went to, did he explain his failure to build a winning team in 2005 Lions? 

Don't get me wrong, In 2003 Woodward was a good manager with a very good bunch of players to work with and did very well. He also had a good bunch with the Lions and did badly. 

England also have a pretty good squad now, but Eddie Jones has not got the best out of them and the RU need to listen to advice from people involved in the modern game about the right candidate. If they believe they have the right candidate they must give that person the right to choose their own team and strategy.


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## Slick (6 Dec 2022)

Rusty Nails said:


> There are many managers who know how to build a winning team, including even Eddie Jones once upon a time. The problem is repeating that success and that shows the managers who really do have what it takes.
> 
> As far as shying away from failure is concerned, how, in the talk you went to, did he explain his failure to build a winning team in 2005 Lions?
> 
> ...



He didn't talk about particular failures, but he did talk about failures in general, how to analyse them as well as how to make the required changes. 

As I said, I found it really interesting listening to him, I was fascinated by his preparation and still feel his opinions still mean something in the game and probably much wider.

I'm a bit of a people watcher, and have always found successful people very interesting, especially what motivates them, mainly because as soon as I reckoned I had sufficient trinkets, I got off the merry-go-round.


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## T4tomo (7 Dec 2022)

Managing / coaching a Lions tour is very different to building a team over time for a world cup though, although Woodward did seem to alienate the Welsh contingent on that tour> that said it was a very very good All Blacks team.


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## Rusty Nails (7 Dec 2022)

T4tomo said:


> Managing / coaching a Lions tour is very different to building a team over time for a world cup though, although Woodward did seem to alienate the Welsh contingent on that tour> that said it was a very very good All Blacks team.



Of course it is, but you cannot ignore his managerial/coaching failures when looking at his overall record.

Eddie Jones was runner-up in one World Cup, was part of the coaching team when South Africa won it, and helped Japan's development as a rugby team when coaching them. By that token he was at least as knowledgeable a manager as Woodward but was still fallible. 

As the financial services blurb says "previous performance is not a sign of future success", and Woodward was the right man 20 years ago, but does not necessarily have the answer to current problems with England.

I believe that, despite the recent setbacks, England have the players to go very far in the tournament with a good current manager who can settle on his best team/tactics.


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## Dogtrousers (7 Dec 2022)

I tend to be a bit skeptical of putting too much faith in coaching teams, either heaping praise on them when a team wins or calling for their heads when it loses. 

Sure they're important, can't deny that. But they don't work miracles or turn a team of thoroughbreds into donkeys. This was the kind of thinking that led the RFU to install Martin Johnson despite his total lack of experience. "He'll sprinkle some world cup winning magic on them". Didn't turn out too well.

I think the current crop of England players are fundamentally OK, but nothing to get excited about. (Maybe Itoje and potentially Smith aside) They don't stand much chance in the RWC whoever the RFU appoints at the top.

Caveat: I am a complete know-nothing and my opinions are worthless.


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## geocycle (7 Dec 2022)

I like Steve Borthwick, good international, did great things at Leicester and as well as when he was forwards coach. Only problem is the English scrum is now one of the weakest and Borthwick built Leicester on a forward dominated game. We need a good attack coach that sets the players free and doesn’t stifle them.


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