# Bikeability Woes



## reglard (24 Mar 2015)

Anyone had experience with these clowns my daughter attended one of the courses at her School I was surprised to hear that one of the instructors rejected my daughters bike on tyres adding that she would not be allowed to ride on the second day without them being changed. On inspecting her current tyres which I do regular basis I found nothing wrong with them apart from them starting to reach the end of their service life but by no means there yet. Rushing about I managed to find a set 24 x 1.85 with tubes for £51 at the local boutique bike shop. On the internet I could have done this for £30 but I did not wish to disappoint my daughter however if I had known about the officious health and safety aspects of the course I would have not put her on it. A lot of parents were told they would have to fix the kids bike before they could go out and a lot would not have been able to do it in time.


----------



## ufkacbln (25 Mar 2015)

I have some sympathy as I have seen some of the bikes ridden to our local school

However common sense would have been to have a bike inspection prior to the sessions to allow repair and maintenance


----------



## reglard (25 Mar 2015)

My sentiments exactly


----------



## mjr (25 Mar 2015)

Bikeability is a scheme, like the old cycling proficiency was. There are many instructors/examiners, with different practices. Who are yours?


----------



## Drago (25 Mar 2015)

Arse covering for insurance. Anyone turns up on one of my courses with a machine that's even slightly suspect gets sent away. I pay the premiums, I decide what's fit to roll or not, which isn't unreasonable.


----------



## Rooster1 (25 Mar 2015)

My daughters bike was flagged for the rear disk brake not being adjusted properly (braking was a bit lacklustre). They did not bump her off the course though. I made sure my sons bike was 100% for his bikeability last week. He passed the first level.


----------



## Drago (25 Mar 2015)

Rather them than me. Last thing I want is an insurer to refuse a claim because.I knew.about a.mechanical issue and did nothing about it, and leave myself open for compensation in court.


----------



## buggi (25 Mar 2015)

I've got to agree with Drago, if something happened to your child, they would find any excuse in the world to pin the blame on the child or instructor. And if the instructor is then refused insurance, no job! Arse covering!


----------



## fossyant (25 Mar 2015)

Many kids bikes are down right dangerous. I do side with the instructors.


----------



## lee1980sim (25 Mar 2015)

If you don't like it don't do it, it doesn't stop you from riding a bike (or does it), but as far as I know the point is safety so it would be rather hypocritical for an instructor to allow in their opinion unsafe bikes / practice on a course they're in charge of


----------



## w00hoo_kent (25 Mar 2015)

fossyant said:


> Many kids bikes are down right dangerous. I do side with the instructors.


Some of the stuff that turns up when my wife does cycling with her guides is truly shocking. I've tried to get her to do a maintenance evening the week before but we aren't there yet.

They all have helmets on though so it must be fine.


----------



## fossyant (25 Mar 2015)

It's the no brakes that gets me. Add that to crap quality = disaster


----------



## PeteXXX (25 Mar 2015)

Do some schools insist that their children have to have passed Bikeability or anything similar before they are actually allowed to ride to school?
I seem to remember it being mentioned somewhere at some point in the past..


----------



## mjr (25 Mar 2015)

PeteXXX said:


> Do some schools insist that their children have to have passed Bikeability or anything similar before they are actually allowed to ride to school?
> I seem to remember it being mentioned somewhere at some point in the past..


http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?p=872869#p872869 discusses this, but in short, some definitely do and we don't know of any measurement of how common that is.


----------



## reglard (25 Mar 2015)

Well my son won't be doing it , I suspected that it would be overtly elf n safety. Would be nice if the instructors inspected the bikes prior to the course. Once the kids are on the course its hard to say to them they can't do it.


----------



## reglard (25 Mar 2015)

mjray said:


> Bikeability is a scheme, like the old cycling proficiency was. There are many instructors/examiners, with different practices. Who are yours?



Suffolk Roadsafe I did go on one if their speeding courses and that was evangelical


----------



## subaqua (25 Mar 2015)

No, but I did service her bike before she did it in yr 5 or 6 . 

Side with instructor even if some are asshats .


----------



## mjr (25 Mar 2015)

reglard said:


> Suffolk Roadsafe I did go on one if their speeding courses and that was evangelical


You have my sympathy. I doubt they're quite as bad as Norfolk Road Safety (who are still teaching a dangerous outdated cycling-proficiency-style handbook as far as I know - not even Bikeability), but @smsm1 might know more, if we can entice him back on here ;-) If you're in Forest Heath district, then I'd be happy for you to join KLWNBUG and work with the members who have had some success persuading schools to move to better providers.


----------



## mustang1 (25 Mar 2015)

Blame the system. Obviously the op knows about bikes so I can see both POV.


----------



## subaqua (25 Mar 2015)

mjray said:


> You have my sympathy. I doubt they're quite as bad as Norfolk Road Safety (who are still teaching a dangerous outdated cycling-proficiency-style handbook as far as I know - not even Bikeability), but @smsm1 might know more, if we can entice him back on here ;-) If you're in Forest Heath district, then I'd be happy for you to join KLWNBUG and work with the members who have had some success persuading schools to move to better providers.


sounds like the backards eejit that was "teaching" ( i use the word very very loosely ) my daughters cohort . the one that was trying to get them to ride in the gutter ( funnily the segregated lanes proposed for CS 2 look ,like gutters, and the current lanes from stratford to bow certainly have enough water in them to qualify  ) and the door zone. as i have posted previously she told him he was wrong .


----------



## Flying Dodo (25 Mar 2015)

reglard said:


> Well my son won't be doing it , I suspected that it would be overtly elf n safety. Would be nice if the instructors inspected the bikes prior to the course. Once the kids are on the course its hard to say to them they can't do it.



If you set aside a day sometime before Bikeability starts to do bike checks, the cost of that would have to be paid for by someone. And then you're relying on the school actually bothering to communicate to parents. Bearing in mind it's a struggle to actually get the kids to turn up with bikes (working or not) on the day they start Bikeability (seriously), you're expecting miracles for them all to turn up a few days before with their bikes to get them checked. The organisation I'm with sets aside at least an hour beforehand to go over the bikes and try and get them roadworthy, but they ensure they also have at least 1 "loaner" bike, as it's generally required.


----------



## Puddles (25 Mar 2015)

We must have been lucky with out Bikeability Instructors from Pedal Power... it was a mare getting instructors to have a bit of sense and talk to "head bikeability" to allow all ages at the school do Bikeability 1 and if they were ready 2....

Pedal Power Training sorted all the grants to cover the cost and over several weekends using a classroom at the school and the playground for 1 (road for 2) they came in and took 146 children through it, they checked the bikes, found no faults, were a bit leery for some of the ages on the Level 1 AND 2 course and kept repeating they would make a decision on if they would do 2 after 1 and had their socks blown off by our kids. We are rural-ish area and lots of children starting "cycling to school" in some form or another at pre-school.

This company was the only company that understood "it is all very well you going on about average ages they do which bikeability course, but they are already cycling to school (okay with Mum/Dad at 4) but they are doing it so lets give them some training....

They even got every single one of the little ones that had stabilisers off them and pedalling independantly.. they didn't pass level 1 but they got a little bit of safety sense and also up on two wheels!

In short they were bloody marvellous... but as I say perhaps we were just lucky.

Oh and the only complaints we had from parents was that their children were correcting their riding styles with "don't ride in the door zone" "start off with your pedal in the power position" etc


----------



## reglard (25 Mar 2015)

Pragmatism is what is needed , its important that kids have some road training and knowing the abuse the kids bikes get they will always be less than perfect , But as long as the bike goes and stops then there is not a lot of trouble they can get into, my god as a child of the 70s I did my cycling proficiency on a Raleigh Chopper with just the central axle of the pedal on one side.


----------



## I like Skol (27 Mar 2015)

Had a similar mixed experience of bikeability at my sons school. As a cycling nut his bike was possibly one of the dearest there (Ridgeback MX24, definitely above the BSO category) and without doubt the best adjusted/maintained/set-up, even if it wasn't the cleanest as we use our bikes enthusiastically. He didn't really need to do Bikeability as he was well on his way from riding we me and has always shown great road sense and awareness and had done the course independently of the school during a holiday, but I figured it would be daft to turn down the chance of additional training/alternative POV.

During the bike checks the instructors kept trying to lower his saddle as it was a struggle for him to put both feet flat on the floor when sat on the saddle. Bless him, he might be great on a bike but tact isn't a strong point. He told them to leave it alone as his dad had set it and it was right and he knew what he was doing coz he's a professional (which I am not). He later disagreed with something else and let slip that it contradicted what he had been taught on the course the previous time....... The little know-it-all smart alec was sent to join his non-cycling classmates back in normal lessons at this point 

His saddle height was spot on by the way.


----------



## reglard (27 Mar 2015)

I like Skol said:


> Had a similar mixed experience of bikeability at my sons school. As a cycling nut his bike was possibly one of the dearest there (Ridgeback MX24, definitely above the BSO category) and without doubt the best adjusted/maintained/set-up, even if it wasn't the cleanest as we use our bikes enthusiastically. He didn't really need to do Bikeability as he was well on his way from riding we me and has always shown great road sense and awareness and had done the course independently of the school during a holiday, but I figured it would be daft to turn down the chance of additional training/alternative POV.
> 
> During the bike checks the instructors kept trying to lower his saddle as it was a struggle for him to put both feet flat on the floor when sat on the saddle. Bless him, he might be great on a bike but tact isn't a strong point. He told them to leave it alone as his dad had set it and it was right and he knew what he was doing coz he's a professional (which I am not). He later disagreed with something else and let slip that it contradicted what he had been taught on the course the previous time....... The little know-it-all smart alec was sent to join his non-cycling classmates back in normal lessons at this point
> 
> His saddle height was spot on by the way.




The school when I asked said the instructors for Bikeability are under instruction from Suffolk Council, and we all know how devoid of reality councils can be when it comes to H&S. My fear is that kids will be put off cycling by setting the expectation that everything has to be perfect, also non cycling parents will be spending on BSOs or stopping their kids riding in fear that the child is in danger. I have the telephone number of the coordinator in the council so will ask him to provide his specification. My daughter passed her level 2 today so of course I am a proud Dad as its a cycling milestone like the old cycling proficiency, I told her she can teach her old dad the right way, it might make me behave on the daily commute.


----------



## Drago (27 Mar 2015)

Insurers have never heard the word 'pragmatism'. They have heard the words "tough tit mucker."


----------



## Cp40Carl (28 Mar 2015)

My son missed the Bikeability course when it was at his school due to illness. He does come out cycling regularly with me at weekends during the summer months and has done so for some time. Having long since passed my own Cycling Proficency, and spent a considerable amount of time cycling in traffic, I am conscious of the need for him to learn a lot of different road awareness skills; whilst I could try to teach him, those of you with teenagers will recognise that they do not always pay 100% attention to everything a parent tells them.

I thought, therefore that the best option would be to attend a Bikeability course with him. However, as he is 15yrs old, there aren't any Bikeability courses we could both attend; it's either adult or child only. Only option appears to be private Bikeability lesson for £50. The Bikeability people have helpfully been in touch about this and I will probably enroll the two of us (I'm sure a 'refresher' will be useful for me too!). 

Just a shame that there aren't courses for adults and teenagers (who I would imagine are most likely to be involved in road accidents). 

Interested to hear views on this or whether others have encountered this problem?


----------



## Flying Dodo (28 Mar 2015)

Any qualified cycling instructor should be able to tailor any training for you both to attend together. Try googling for cycle instructors locally, to get some other people to contact. The ones known by the CTC are shown here whilst the British Cycling ones are here. There's likely to be some overlap between the organisations.


----------



## Cp40Carl (28 Mar 2015)

Flying Dodo said:


> Any qualified cycling instructor should be able to tailor any training for you both to attend together. Try googling for cycle instructors locally, to get some other people to contact. The ones known by the CTC are shown here whilst the British Cycling ones are here. There's likely to be some overlap between the organisations.



That's really helpful, thank you.

To be honest, the Bikeability people were very helpful and said they could arrange a private lesson for £50. It's just a shame that the local free Bikeability courses, usually run in local parks over the school holidays don't allow mixed groups of adults and children at times.

Appreciate your help.


----------



## Andy_R (29 Mar 2015)

A bit of background: 

The "free" bikeability courses are funded by central goverment to the tune of £40 per child trained. To get this funding the instructors have to teach to the National Standard which bears the Bikeability branding, and they have to be registered with and trained by an Instructor Training Organisation (ITO). The teaching is constantly audited and spot checks are carried out by representatives from Steer Davies Gleave on behalf of the DfT. If, during an inspection, it is felt that the Instructors are not working in line with the National Standard the possibility is there for SDG to recommend that funding to the Bikeability Provider (the organisation the instructor is working for) can be suspended. This covers not only the actual training of the young people, but the risk assessment of the instructor regarding bike suitability, training areas etc. 

These "clowns" as you put it, are primarily responsible for the safety of the young people in their care (on road ratios of 1:6). As you put it "the tyres were starting to reach the end of their service life" so you knew they were a potential safety issue, but still allowed your daughter to go on a training course that would invovle cycling in traffic. So if that makes them "clowns" for looking out for your daughter's safety, that must make you a "muppet" for not doing the same.

Part of the course is aimed at getting the young people to recognise faults or potential issues with their own bikes, so to spot a tyre needs replacing, but to do nothing about it would be a tad hypocritical of the instructor wouldn't it.

@reglard Suffolk Council may be the Bikeability Provider, but they are NOT allowed to tell the instructors how to run courses or what content to teach. Only the Bikeability Provider's ITO is allowed to do that, and according to the July 2014 lists, Suffolk Council is not an ITO. If the Council is found to be in breach of that, it will lose all Bikeability funding.

And yes, before you ask, I am one of those "clowns". I am also an instructor trainer for an ITO, so I also train those "clowns".


----------



## reglard (29 Mar 2015)

Andy_R said:


> A bit of background:
> 
> The "free" bikeability courses are funded by central goverment to the tune of £40 per child trained. To get this funding the instructors have to teach to the National Standard which bears the Bikeability branding, and they have to be registered with and trained by an Instructor Training Organisation (ITO). The teaching is constantly audited and spot checks are carried out by representatives from Steer Davies Gleave on behalf of the DfT. If, during an inspection, it is felt that the Instructors are not working in line with the National Standard the possibility is there for SDG to recommend that funding to the Bikeability Provider (the organisation the instructor is working for) can be suspended. This covers not only the actual training of the young people, but the risk assessment of the instructor regarding bike suitability, training areas etc.
> 
> ...


----------



## reglard (29 Mar 2015)

Fair point as you say its free and we don't have to use it again.













Tyre



__ reglard
__ 29 Mar 2015


----------



## Dave Davenport (29 Mar 2015)

Puddles said:


> We must have been lucky with out Bikeability Instructors from Pedal Power... it was a mare getting instructors to have a bit of sense and talk to "head bikeability" to allow all ages at the school do Bikeability 1 and if they were ready 2....
> 
> Pedal Power Training sorted all the grants to cover the cost and over several weekends using a classroom at the school and the playground for 1 (road for 2) they came in and took 146 children through it, they checked the bikes, found no faults, were a bit leery for some of the ages on the Level 1 AND 2 course and kept repeating they would make a decision on if they would do 2 after 1 and had their socks blown off by our kids. We are rural-ish area and lots of children starting "cycling to school" in some form or another at pre-school.
> 
> ...



I work for Pedal Power, glad to hear of your positive experience.

As to the OP; Yes the standard of training providers is variable, but as a passionate cyclist and cycling advocate I honestly believe Bikeability to be very positive and beneficial. We always get kids turning up on un-roadworthy bikes that have been dragged out of the back of the shed on the first morning of the course or else are far too large/small, one of the reasons we always have more loan bikes available than we've been asked for. I've had to tell quite a few they can't use the bike they've brought but have always sorted something so they can do the course.
I don't think I'm too much of a clown when it comes to bike maintenance, but I'd probably also be wary of taking a bike with worn tyres out, mainly because they'd be much more likely to puncture which would mean me having to fix it or the whole group walking back to school, which either way would lose a considerable amount of the available training time.


----------



## reglard (29 Mar 2015)

So there is the real reason ,


Dave Davenport said:


> mainly because they'd be much more likely to puncture


 as I suspected however that's £50 I can afford for families on tight budgets that's a lot of money. I apologies however for use of the world clown.


----------



## Andy_R (29 Mar 2015)

TBH @reglard , that tyre is ready to pop. I was mentoring a session with an instructor who I trained (when mentoring we do NOT interfere, but observe unless it is unsafe to continue) who had spotted a similar thing. I stopped the teaching and went on to prove a point with the kids AND the instructor. It was a hot summer day, we laid all the bikes down on the verge, and after about 10 minutes the tyre exloded.


----------



## reglard (30 Mar 2015)

Time will tell as the tyres will be returning to the bike to see how long they do last as the ones that replaced them have frame clearance issues. We won't be using Bikeability again for my other children. I would suggest that future that a specification of what is acceptable be made very clear to parents.


----------



## Dave Davenport (30 Mar 2015)

reglard said:


> We won't be using Bikeability again for my other children.



Your kids, your choice obviously; but it's a shame you feel like that as they always love doing it in my experience.


----------



## Flying Dodo (30 Mar 2015)

reglard said:


> Time will tell as the tyres will be returning to the bike to see how long they do last as the ones that replaced them have frame clearance issues. We won't be using Bikeability again for my other children. I would suggest that future that a specification of what is acceptable be made very clear to parents.



The trouble is, that it's very subjective. How can you describe in words what level of worn tyres (for instance) might, or might not be acceptable? You'd also have to cover every other component in detail as well. And that's assuming a) that the school forward onto all parents any request, b) the parents bother to read it, and c) actually act on it.


----------



## Profpointy (30 Mar 2015)

reglard said:


> Time will tell as the tyres will be returning to the bike to see how long they do last as the ones that replaced them have frame clearance issues. We won't be using Bikeability again for my other children. I would suggest that future that a specification of what is acceptable be made very clear to parents.



stop your kids


reglard said:


> Fair point as you say its free and we don't have to use it again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



is that a big circumferential split or merely the moulding line? What are we looking at exactly?


----------



## reglard (31 Mar 2015)

Condemned tyre,moulding line


----------



## Drago (31 Mar 2015)

Flying Dodo said:


> The trouble is, that it's very subjective. How can you describe in words what level of worn tyres (for instance) might, or might not be acceptable? You'd also have to cover every other component in detail as well-known. And that's assuming a) that the school forward onto all parents any request, b) the parents bother to read it, and c) actually act on it.


it is subjective to a large extent, which is why the decision should be left to one person -the person who pays the insurance premiums.


----------



## Puddles (31 Mar 2015)

Cp40Carl said:


> My son missed the Bikeability course when it was at his school due to illness. He does come out cycling regularly with me at weekends during the summer months and has done so for some time. Having long since passed my own Cycling Proficency, and spent a considerable amount of time cycling in traffic, I am conscious of the need for him to learn a lot of different road awareness skills; whilst I could try to teach him, those of you with teenagers will recognise that they do not always pay 100% attention to everything a parent tells them.
> 
> I thought, therefore that the best option would be to attend a Bikeability course with him. However, as he is 15yrs old, there aren't any Bikeability courses we could both attend; it's either adult or child only. Only option appears to be private Bikeability lesson for £50. The Bikeability people have helpfully been in touch about this and I will probably enroll the two of us (I'm sure a 'refresher' will be useful for me too!).
> 
> ...




Our council gives Lesson Vouchers, you can pay £5 to the council and then get your voucher that entitles you to 2 1/2 hours training with an instructor of your choice on the "approved" list, if you want another 2 1/2 hours after that it is £10. I think £15 for 5 hours of lessons is pretty good.


----------



## Cubist (24 Apr 2015)

reglard said:


> Condemned tyre,moulding line


On the right of the photo you can see an area where the tread area of the tyre is starting to delaminate. It looks like it's suffered some damage. That isn't a moulding line by the way, it's the join between the sidewall and the tread area which is bonded onto it. The bulge underneath the damage would worry me too.


----------



## Sandra6 (6 May 2015)

Cunobelin said:


> I have some sympathy as I have seen some of the bikes ridden to our local school
> 
> However common sense would have been to have a bike inspection prior to the sessions to allow repair and maintenance





reglard said:


> Time will tell as the tyres will be returning to the bike to see how long they do last as the ones that replaced them have frame clearance issues. We won't be using Bikeability again for my other children. I would suggest that future that a specification of what is acceptable be made very clear to parents.



When the school sent out letters about bike ability, along with permission slips, we were advised to have their bike checked at a lbs prior to the course as anyone with an unsuitable bike wouldn't be able to continue. 
Its not as if they made it up on the day and I'd rather they erred on the side of caution.


----------



## ufkacbln (6 May 2015)

Sandra6 said:


> When the school sent out letters about bike ability, along with permission slips, we were advised to have their bike checked at a lbs prior to the course as anyone with an unsuitable bike wouldn't be able to continue.
> Its not as if they made it up on the day and I'd rather they erred on the side of caution.




I used to organise a sponsored bike ride for the local Scout Group, it was their biggest fundraiser with the income forming 25 - 30% of the income

What we used to do was have an early morning "scrutineering"session for all the kids bikes with a couple of local cyclists running basic maintenance to make sure the bikes were safe


----------



## Puddles (6 May 2015)

Sandra6 said:


> When the school sent out letters about bike ability, along with permission slips, we were advised to have their bike checked at a lbs prior to the course as anyone with an unsuitable bike wouldn't be able to continue.
> Its not as if they made it up on the day and I'd rather they erred on the side of caution.




We arranged for a lovely mobile bicycle repair man to come in and give a whole day free to check all bikes of the children so many parents wanted it he ended up doing 2 free days and then tell parents what needed doing if he was not able to fix it due to it being just labour no parts. Parents were happy, bikes were happy, repair man was happy as he did end up being booked for lots of work


----------

