# Any black pro cyclist on the tour? I don't think I've seen one yet



## Spoked Wheels (27 Jul 2013)

Just curious why I haven't seen one yet.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (27 Jul 2013)

Reza and Berhane from Europcar

#strangethread


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## Hip Priest (27 Jul 2013)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Reza and Berhane from Europcar
> 
> #strangethread


 

Yeah. I don't think Berhane was on the tour, but Reza and Yohann Gene were.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (27 Jul 2013)

Hip Priest said:


> Yeah. I don't think Berhane was on the tour, but Reza and Yohann Gene were.


Like it really matters.


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## Hip Priest (27 Jul 2013)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Like it really matters.


 

It matters to the OP, presumably. 

Just answering his question.


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## Mr Haematocrit (27 Jul 2013)

Erik Saunders
Yohann Gene


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (27 Jul 2013)

Hip Priest said:


> It matters to the OP, presumably.
> 
> Just answering his question.


As did I


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## Mad Doug Biker (27 Jul 2013)

There was a black guy on Team Europcar, Reza I think, who was in a breakaway in one of the early stages of Le Tour with the Japanese guy, Arashiro. In a Peleton of predominantly white riders, I thought they made a great odd couple!

More historically there was also a black guy who did things like Le Tour back in the early '50s, and who ended up penniless. Many years later, and quite by chance he was recognised by someone as he begged on the streets of Paris and spent his last few years getting the help he needed.
Abdel Kader Zaaf I think he was called. Apparently he got himself distracted in (I think) the 1950 tour and cycled part of a stage the wrong way!
He was one of several Algerians and Moroccans to have ridden in Le Tour over the years (They were both French Colonies remember).


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## Flying_Monkey (27 Jul 2013)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Like it really matters.


 
Of course it matters. What a pointless and ignorant comment. Perhaps you would like to read some of the links in the 'Good news' thread on African cycling, where some of us have occasionally been noting the rise of especially Eritrean, Ethiopian and Rwandan cycling.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (27 Jul 2013)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Of course it matters. What a pointless and ignorant comment. Perhaps you would like to read some of the links in the 'Good news' thread on African cycling, where some of us have occasionally been noting the rise of especially Eritrean, Ethiopian and Rwandan cycling.


I think you've misconstrued what I said.

The thread title doesn't specifically state the TDF, rather "on the tour". Could that possibly mean the UCI World Tour which happens to be a whole series of ranking events?

And therefore, it doesn't actually matter if Berhane was at the TDF or not.


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## Flying_Monkey (27 Jul 2013)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> I think you've misconstrued what I said.


 
Very possibly and I apologise if that was the case. However, the OP was noting the absense of black riders in the pro-peloton and whether there is one or two or three black riders on the World Tour or the Tour de France, the issue is the same, and it's an important one.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (28 Jul 2013)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Very possibly. However, the OP was noting the absense of black riders in the pro-peloton and whether there is one or two or three black riders on the World Tour or the Tour de France, the issue is the same, and it's an important one.


All I did was offer names from memory, if you want to discuss anything beyond that carry on. Had no intention of getting deep into the subject.


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## sidevalve (28 Jul 2013)

Not my usual area but the OP interested me. What does it matter WHAT colour the riders were ? Would it be better if black riders were give "free tickets" just because they were black or were forced to compete just to "keep the numbers up" ?
Too many people are searching for racism and prejudice and what they look for they WILL find.
There are many black athletes [and olympic medal holders] but nobody seems to be saying "why arn't there more white athletes". Positive discrimination is as degraging as any other form.
There wern't many inuit or chinese riders either but I don't see many comments about that fact.
If a black rider wins the TDF - great, if not so be it. After all how long has it taken for a british rider to win ?
If the current riders either choose not to or are not up to the standard of winning then maybe the next generation of black riders will, but let them get there on their own merits.


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## theclaud (28 Jul 2013)

sidevalve said:


> Positive discrimination is as degraging as any other form.


 
Yes I feel terribly degraged on account of being white.


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## Berties (28 Jul 2013)

Daniel Teklehaimanot,rode the veultra last year for OGE,great climber and sense of humour


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## Strathlubnaig (28 Jul 2013)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Of course it matters. What a pointless and ignorant comment. Perhaps you would like to read some of the links in the 'Good news' thread on African cycling, where some of us have occasionally been noting the rise of especially Eritrean, Ethiopian and Rwandan cycling.


I think perhaps he was saying that race / colour does not matter, and should not matter.


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## AndyRM (28 Jul 2013)

RRSODL said:


> Just curious why I haven't seen one yet.



You can't have been watching much cycling.


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## Flying_Monkey (28 Jul 2013)

Strathlubnaig said:


> I think perhaps he was saying that race / colour does not matter, and should not matter.


 
I think you will find that 'does not matter' and the 'should not matter' are two completely different things... few people would disagree on the latter, but anyone who thinks the former I would suggest probably has either a very blinkered or privileged view of the world.


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## Flying_Monkey (28 Jul 2013)

Berties said:


> Daniel Teklehaimanot,rode the veultra last year for OGE,great climber and sense of humour


 
And he just won his first race of the season in Spain (check the 'good news' thread, mentioned earlier...)


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (28 Jul 2013)

Strathlubnaig said:


> I think perhaps he was saying that race / colour does not matter, and should not matter.


I was not.


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## ufkacbln (28 Jul 2013)

There is an interesting perspective if you read the history of Marshall (Major) Taylor, the American cyclist wo became the first black American to win a World Championship in 1899

His legacy is still here with teams and clubs that promote black cyclists in the US (although the clubs are open to all)


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## Hip Priest (28 Jul 2013)

sidevalve said:


> Too many people are searching for racism and prejudice and what they look for they WILL find.


 

Nairo Quintana has spoken candidly about racism in the pro peloton.

*



Some thirty years ago, Colombian cyclists were viewed in a disdainful way within the European peloton. How was the team treated in this occasion [Tour de l'Avenir 2010]?

Click to expand...

*


> The same. Things have not changed. This time we had problems with the French, the Australians and also Americans during the race, but we never allowed ourselves to be humiliated as they clearly wished had been the case. They didn't want us to be in the front of the peloton, they "brake-checked" us, they yelled at us, treated us badly, but we took them on and gave it right back. One day, a French rider grabbed Jarlinson Pantano's bike by the handlebar and threw him off his bike. So in retaliation, I went over and pushed this French rider into a ditch. In the end, however, it was him [the French rider] who asked _us_ for forgiveness. At the end of that stage, the directors had to mediate the situation, so we wouldn't have any more problems. As the days went by, things calmed down. They saw that we were the strongest, and they learned to respect us.



*



Has the team received any type of help in a psychological sense, in order to handle the stress and moments of anxiety that come with moments like that in such a big race?

Click to expand...

*


> Yes! In the team we have a psychologist, who has worked with us on this matter. We have even seem movies to help us work through this, and help raise our self esteem. This way we won't feel inferior to them. We are not only from a small country, but we are also physically smaller, and that puts us at a disadvantage with people who are much taller and, as if that weren't enough, are also racists.


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## deptfordmarmoset (28 Jul 2013)

Hip Priest said:


> Nairo Quintana has spoken candidly about racism in the pro peloton.


Thanks for posting that reminder of the dark distant days (a whole 3 years ago!) of pro riding. Is the interview anywhere online?


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## Hip Priest (28 Jul 2013)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> Thanks for posting that reminder of the dark distant days (a whole 3 years ago!) of pro riding. Is the interview anywhere online?


 

I got it from here http://www.cyclinginquisition.com/2013/04/who-is-nairo-quintana.html


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## Milzy (28 Jul 2013)

My friend studies genetics & he says that black athletes are genetically better suited to running type of sports & whites are better at swimming & cycling. Controversial? There was a tv documentary on it last year.


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## junglegusset (28 Jul 2013)

Milzy said:


> My friend studies genetics & he says that black athletes are genetically better suited to running type of sports & whites are better at swimming & cycling. Controversial? There was a tv documentary on it last year.



Are you able to provide a link to the study by any chance?


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## Spoked Wheels (28 Jul 2013)

sidevalve said:


> Not my usual area but the OP interested me. What does it matter WHAT colour the riders were ? Would it be better if black riders were give "free tickets" just because they were black or were forced to compete just to "keep the numbers up" ?
> Too many people are searching for racism and prejudice and what they look for they WILL find.
> There are many black athletes [and olympic medal holders] but nobody seems to be saying "why arn't there more white athletes". Positive discrimination is as degraging as any other form.
> There wern't many inuit or chinese riders either but I don't see many comments about that fact.
> ...


 
When I posted the question, deep down, I knew somebody would come along and make a big issue of it. I should have said something to try to prevent it.

I don't watch much cycling, the just finished TDF was what I have watched the most.

Watching the last TDF I couldn't see any black riders but it seems I was wrong. My observation made me think back to what tennis used to be like, not that tennis has changed tremendously but it is changing gradually.

Even if there are a few black pro riders on the tour I can't understand why there aren't a lot more. The same goes for Chinese riders, going back in time, the bicycle was the main form of transport in China but it seems that Chinese aren't particularly interested in competitive cycling but I might be wrong.

I get a feeling that this has nothing to do with race but what sports are popular in a particular country, with exceptions of course. Cycling in Colombia has always been important, especially climbing. I understood that Colombian cyclists were good climbers. The terrain in Colombia helps their training I suppose. French, Italians and Spanish have a long tradition in Cycling, along with many other European countries.

So, I'd like to think this is not a race issue but I know it's a far more complex issue too.


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## Milzy (28 Jul 2013)

junglegusset said:


> Are you able to provide a link to the study by any chance?


 
The information is on the internet. I've just remembered another documentary with Micheal Johnson which was on channel 4 a few years back.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/...ohnson-Survival-of-the-Fastest-C4-review.html

The theory is, it's down to the slave trade as they were bred to be big & strong. Weak guys with low endurance suck as slaves. Many of West African descendants have a Superior centre of gravity, better rotational qualities & higher quality muscle that performs for longer. Christophe Lemaitre the French national record holder is the only white 100m sprinter who can compete with the like of Ussain Bolt.

It's nothing to do with racism just good old fashioned science & rather interesting too.


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## Noodley (28 Jul 2013)

Oh look, a thread on the same topic from a few years ago:
http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/black-pro-cyclists.37349/

And for the benefit of members who have joined post-2009; yenners was a nobber, just to forewarn you. As was Mr Pig, he was a huge nobber.


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## Milzy (28 Jul 2013)

That thread is just nonsensical drivel in all fairness.


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## Hip Priest (28 Jul 2013)

Milzy said:


> The theory is, it's down to the slave trade as they were bred to be big & strong.


 
Having read the article, it seems the theory is that slaves lived in such horrendous, inhumane conditions that only the very strongest survived.


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## deptfordmarmoset (28 Jul 2013)

@Hip Priest - I don't suppose it was you who posted a comment on a linked post from that blog yesterday, was it? Classic iTypo!

Subarctic cyclingApril 18, 2011 at 8:42 PM
Excellent interview, this blog continues to lick ass
Reply





Subarctic cyclingApril 18, 2011 at 8:47 PM
That should be kicks ass not lick ass. Unless of course your into that. Stupid iPhone keys and fat fingers
Reply
Replies







AnonymousJuly 27, 2013 at 9:51 PM
LOLs... loved that one!


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## Hip Priest (28 Jul 2013)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> @Hip Priest - I don't suppose it was you who posted a comment on a linked post from that blog yesterday, was it? Classic iTypo!


 
Haha! No, it wasn't me.


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## Noodley (28 Jul 2013)

Milzy said:


> That thread is just nonsensical drivel in all fairness.


 
Likewise this one.


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## Hip Priest (28 Jul 2013)

Noodley said:


> Likewise this one.


 

Discussions about race often lead to nonsense.

I'm surprised nobody has said anything about black men having big willies.


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## ufkacbln (28 Jul 2013)

RRSODL said:


> When I posted the question, deep down, I knew somebody would come along and make a big issue of it. I should have said something to try to prevent it.
> 
> I don't watch much cycling, the just finished TDF was what I have watched the most.
> 
> ...


 
One of the reasons I posted the Major Taylor link

There are ethnic issues across the board with cycling, from certain Islamic groups where a female na bike is abhorrent, to those areas where it is seen as a sign of poverty.

Getting kids on bikes, developing their skills and abilities would be massive challenge in this type of culture.

I am also not sure that this is in itself the whole reason though. Look at the massive popularity of sports cycling in Japan. Keirin for instance has 4,000 registered professional riders, some 50 velodromes that brings in 57 million spectators and gamblers.

Yet the Japanese are also under represented in teh international peloton

I don't know if it is cultural, physiological, due to racism in the peloton, but we need to look wider than the black communities if we are to come up with an answer


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## Flying_Monkey (28 Jul 2013)

Hip Priest said:


> Nairo Quintana has spoken candidly about racism in the pro peloton.


 
It's also been noted that Quintana gets plenty of racism from other Colombians - for being indigenous. I've also seen some rather dubious comments about his looks on this forum, that show a basic lack of knowledge about indigenous peoples of the Americas and what they normally look like.

Of course, as I said a long time ago on that other thread, there is a big distinction between socio-economic explanations (largely to do with poverty and opportunity) and racial-physiological explanations (people X are naturally better at A or B than people Y). That's not to say that all physiological explanations are rubbish: the particular story of slavery and survival _might_ have created conditions for a kind of selectivity as the program mentioned above explored. But it should be noted that this does not mean 'black people' are naturally of a certain fixed physical type - quite the opposite, in fact.

Pro-cycling developed from Europe, and is still dominated by white Europeans. Some of this is the result of history, some the result of the financial requirements of professional sport and cycling in particular. One thing that is absolutely certain is that it is nothing to do with 'natural' physiological differences - because 'white' is not an physiological cateory with any meaning, any more than 'black' is. However it is certainly a very real one in socio-economic terms.

What I am interested in is the encouragement of cycling in as wide a range of people as possible, and providing opportunities and support to those who would not otherwise get a chance to reach their sporting potential. Sub-Saharan Africa is one of the major potential pools of talent, and there is enormous enthusiasm for cycling in several countries, but it just needs the support and funding. The UCI has been doing a few things, team MTN-Qhubeka is a vital recent step forward, but much more needs to be done. China, also mentioned above, doesn't really need the help - they have both the population and the money should they wish to develop cycling more (and they are doing so on the track and to an increasing extent on the road).


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## Flying_Monkey (28 Jul 2013)

RRSODL said:


> When I posted the question, deep down, I knew somebody would come along and make a big issue of it. I should have said something to try to prevent it.


 
What's the problem? There's no need to worry, we're all reasonably intelligent people who can deal with important issues, I would hope.


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## Doseone (28 Jul 2013)

Mad Doug Biker said:


> More historically there was also a black guy who did things like Le Tour back in the early '50s, and who ended up penniless. Many years later, and quite by chance he was recognised by someone as he begged on the streets of Paris and spent his last few years getting the help he needed.
> Abdel Kader Zaaf I think he was called. Apparently he got himself distracted in (I think) the 1950 tour and cycled part of a stage the wrong way!
> He was one of several Algerians and Moroccans to have ridden in Le Tour over the years (They were both French Colonies remember).


 
Here he is, was just reading about him this morning. Retired injured in the 1950 Tour and finished 66th in 1951.







Flying_Monkey said:


> Of course it matters. What a pointless and ignorant comment. Perhaps you would like to read some of the links in the 'Good news' thread on African cycling, where some of us have occasionally been noting the rise of especially Eritrean, Ethiopian and Rwandan cycling.


 

I can't wait for 1st August and the release of Tim Lewis' book about the rise of the Rwanda cycling team.


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## Mad Doug Biker (28 Jul 2013)

RRSODL said:


> When I posted the question, deep down, I knew somebody would come along and make a big issue of it. I should have said something to try to prevent it.


 
To me your question merely seemed to be an observational one. I have made such innocent observations myself occasionally in the past but unfortunately, anything to do with colour/race seems to set off a hair trigger, gets everyone's panties in a twist and it rapidly gets out of hand, because, well, that's the way things are now and everyone is scared of saying anything, even stating the bleedin' obvious that observations bring. I have often found that some people seem to have great difficulty in separating mere observation from bias/bigotry/racism etc. 



> I get a feeling that this has nothing to do with race but what sports are popular in a particular country, with exceptions of course. Cycling in Colombia has always been important, especially climbing. I understood that Colombian cyclists were good climbers. The terrain in Colombia helps their training I suppose. French, Italians and Spanish have a long tradition in Cycling, along with many other European countries.


 
Each country/continent, even race of people/ethnic groups have sports they are into and are not. Snooker for example is a fantastic example. If you were to look at the geographical distribution patterns of professional players, particularly in recent years, you would see a peculiar pattern of players in Britain/Ireland, and then China/South East Asia/Australia, with only a handful of exceptions in between. A gap that stretches half way round the world!. It isn't even played seriously on the Continent (although Billiards is).



> So, I'd like to think this is not a race issue but I know it's a far more complex issue too.


 
As I say, each sport is different, so yes. Why these sports are not played in certain countries or by ethnic groups is another question in itself, but yes, I think you might be right.


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## Noodley (28 Jul 2013)

Milzy said:


> This thread is just nonsensical drivel in all fairness.


 
Just in case anyone missed this...ok, I may have slightly changed it.


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## ufkacbln (29 Mar 2014)

[QUOTE 3001573, member: 1314"]Posted up by Brixton Nihilist Cycling Club @theclaud @Cunobelin 

_Marshall Walter "Major" Taylor.
During his career he had ice water thrown at him during races, and nails scattered in front of his wheels, and was often boxed in by other riders, preventing the sprints to the front of the pack at which he was so successful, because he was black.
He kept racing, he kept winning. True Nihilist Legend.
(Gracias Andrea!)_
View attachment 41043
[/QUOTE]

... and a lasting legacy with the College and other programs


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## Flick of the Elbow (9 Apr 2014)

20 years ago who would have predicted a British winner of the Tour, never mind two in a row ? All things are possible, a black winner of the Tour is just a matter of time, fingers crossed they'll be British.


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## brand (17 Apr 2014)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Of course it matters. What a pointless and ignorant comment. Perhaps you would like to read some of the links in the 'Good news' thread on African cycling, where some of us have occasionally been noting the rise of especially Eritrean, Ethiopian and Rwandan cycling.


Not only do you talk the words of the Politically* Correct Liberal Thought Police you look like the epitome of the Politically Correct Liberal Thought Police. Yes it does matter that there are hardly any white marathon runners, sprinters and clearly blacks are massively over represented in football. *


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## brand (17 Apr 2014)

PS Burnley Nelson Colne are very big on cycling even own there own pub/club houses. Also big on Muslim Asian population. Only whites cycle though.... What do you read into that Flying_Monkey?


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## raindog (17 Apr 2014)

brand said:


> Not only do you talk the words of the Politically* Correct Liberal Thought Police you look like the epitome of the Politically Correct Liberal Thought Police. Yes it does matter that there are hardly any white marathon runners, sprinters and clearly blacks are massively over represented in football. *


eh?


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## brand (17 Apr 2014)

Hip Priest said:


> Having read the article, it seems the theory is that slaves lived in such horrendous, inhumane conditions that only the very strongest survived.


Highly unlikely that they lived "horrendous, inhumane conditions" that would be illogical like driving car you paid for without engine oil. You don't destroy your own property! Now saying slavery is horrendous and inhumane would be more accurate. Moreover I doubt that what you Say is even relevant after all most black athletes are African not American and the American ones are mostly mixed race (the few that descended from slaves).


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## brand (17 Apr 2014)

User13710 said:


> Are you for real? Or, as TC would say, srsly?


. Not see anything wrong with the following statement?
" Of course it matters. What a pointless and ignorant comment" By flying_monkey
In reference to T.H.M.N.E.T. writing "Like it really matters."


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (17 Apr 2014)

brand said:


> . Not see anything wrong with the following statement?
> " Of course it matters. What a pointless and ignorant comment" By flying_monkey
> In reference to T.H.M.N.E.T. writing "Like it really matters."


We covered this and it was established that what I said was totally misconstrued. Move along


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## Roadrider48 (17 Apr 2014)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Very possibly and I apologise if that was the case. However, the OP was noting the absense of black riders in the pro-peloton and whether there is one or two or three black riders on the World Tour or the Tour de France, the issue is the same, and it's an important one.


It's not an issue! If people of any colour are good enough, they will be there.
Just like any sport.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (17 Apr 2014)

Oh FFS... 

Where do all these nutters usually hide? Can we send them back?


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## rich p (17 Apr 2014)

Marmion said:


> Oh FFS...
> 
> Where do all these nutters usually hide? Can we send them back?


Under a bridge or a pile of poo?


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## brand (18 Apr 2014)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> We covered this and it was established that what I said was totally misconstrued. Move along


He implied you were a racist and you basically apologised. Why did he misconstrue it in the first place? Because he assumed you are white...Reverse racism is racism. If you are to weak to see that that's your problem I won't let people get away with it, so no I won't move on.


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