# canals, walkers and bell tinklers...



## 02GF74 (24 Jan 2008)

I ride aong a canal often and every once in a while I came across the bobbly hat red sock brigade that insist of walking two or three abreast so that is it not possible to pass by. If I am feeling mischieveous (sp?) I slam the brakes so make a noise skid that usually result in the people in fornt jumping out of the skins but most of the time I cycle behind until one spots me and moves out the way.

Commonly they ask "why don't you have a bell?"

"Well I wouldn't need a bell if you weren't blocking the path" is what I would like to say if I was dead hard and stuff but on my race trim bikes. like all of them, you don't put bells do ya?

Anyone else get this?

(and before you ask, I have a permit from British Waterways, probably the only person to have applied for one although I could not find it last time I looked)


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## jiggerypokery (24 Jan 2008)

You young man are more bell end then bike bell.....why not just show a little courtesy, grace and grown up good-mannerdness and say "excuse me"...and if required repeat a little louder.

It's a shared use path not your personal race-way.


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## Maz (24 Jan 2008)

Permit from British Waterways? For what?


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## ratty2k (24 Jan 2008)

I occasionally ride a tow path near where I live, people walk on, fish off it and some ride on it. Its all good, chill out a bit and warn people you're there- but not by scaring them! One day someone will shove you in the canal. I probably would if anyone tried that with me.


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## magnatom (24 Jan 2008)

I think you'll find that walkers have as much right to be there as you have. I have a bell and I use it in these situations. Generally it is greeted well and people often move aside and give a smile as I walk past. 

If you don't have a bell you could always say 'excuse me' politely as you approach and I am sure 95% of the time, people will move aside and probably give you a smile as you go past with care.

What's wrong with a bit of common courtesy 02GF74? Why do you feel you need to harass these people? Do you feel superior to them in some way?


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## Maz (24 Jan 2008)

Thanks again, User.
I've never cycled on a towpath, but I'll bear that in mind if I decide to.


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## magnatom (24 Jan 2008)

User said:


> By law you require a permit from British Waterways to cycle on a towpath. The permit can be downloaded from the British Waterways web-site. Every now and then they do spot checks and fine people who don't have a permit.



Yup I have one in my wallet, but I've never heard of anyone being fined before!


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## Maz (24 Jan 2008)

Is the permit free?


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## Maz (24 Jan 2008)

I'm going to try a _Real Hustle _scam (hi-viz waistcoat, walky-talky, maybe a clipboard) and issue on-the-spot fines to any cyclist not able to show their permits. I'll be quids in!


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## 02GF74 (24 Jan 2008)

jiggerypokery said:


> You young man are more bell end then bike bell.....why not just show a little courtesy, grace and grown up good-mannerdness and say "excuse me"...and if required repeat a little louder.
> 
> It's a shared use path not your personal race-way.



Riding behind until I can overtake by the wlakers moving out of the wya is as couteous as you can get surely? Saying "excuse me"queitely at increased volume ends upo with the same reaction.

It is a shared path where walkers have priority so I never hassle them but does that mean they can block of the whole path? I hjave the same peoblem if I am ruuning or walking fast.


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## bazzadigz C+ (24 Jan 2008)

I use the Regents Canal Path for 95% of my commutes and although it can be frustrating when folks walk 2 or 3 a breast, it wasnt until i walked home one day and suddenly realised why.

If you was to walk down the road talking to a friend then he/she wouldn't walk behind you would they? The paths are just no big enough 

Also in the permit part 1 and 2 say "give way to others at all times" and "Warn others of your approach". We shouldnt try and "bully" them the same way cars try and bully us.

I've been behind many cyclist that have done what you describe and it puts us in danger! all i ever hear is "F&*$ING CYCLIST" & "Next time i'm going to push them in to the Drink!"

So please just give them a ding or a polite "excuse me" and acknowledge when they have done you a favor. It could be worse as you maybe on the road fighting cagers.

ofcourse if your feeling like it you can give them a blast from a AirZound


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## Arch (24 Jan 2008)

02GF74 said:


> Riding behind until I can overtake by the wlakers moving out of the wya is as couteous as you can get surely? Saying "excuse me"queitely at increased volume ends upo with the same reaction.
> 
> It is a shared path where walkers have priority so I never hassle them but does that mean they can block of the whole path? I hjave the same peoblem if I am ruuning or walking fast.



I never have much problem (on shared paths, not towpaths) with a cheery "'S'cuse me!", repeated if not heard the first time.

In my experience, canal towpaths are often narrow, and I certainly wouldn't expect friends walking along them to walk in single file... 

Alternatively, get a bloody bell, and ping that. They come in all colours these days you know, and hardly weigh anything. Mine is shaped like a teapot.


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## flycatcher (24 Jan 2008)

I have a permit, used to cycle 7 miles down the Peak Forest canal to work but now go on the road but I did a 30 mile trip from Ashton-Under-Lyne to Whalley Bridge last weekend and just used the "excuse me" approach followed by a "thank you" which worked fine every time. 

As pointed out already it's a shared path not a cycle lane!


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## Maz (24 Jan 2008)

> If you don't have a bell, some moan at you for not having one.
> 
> If you ring your bell then some moan at you for ringing it, either because they say it makes them jump or they interpret the ringing as some order, and how dare you.
> 
> Both of these kind of people aren't worth worrying about. In the main, my towpath commute includes many pleasant exchanges.


This is a long shot. Do you ever cycle along the canal towpath that runs under Lode Lane in Solihull? Just wondered if it was you I saw a couple of Sundays ago.


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## simoncc (25 Jan 2008)

I don't mind walkers on towpaths. They have as much right to be there as I do, and if I'm on a towpath on my bike I'm not in a particular hurry anyway. Anglers who block the path with their rods, chairs, little tents and boxes of hooks and maggots annoy me though. When they have to move out of my way they quite often look miffed and sometimes mutter some comment. They seem to think very highly of themselves. They think they own the towpath in much the same way many horse riders think they own the roads and lanes, but at least horse riders do keep moving along and don't set up a little camp blocking the way for everyone else.


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## Pete (25 Jan 2008)

I have only once in recent months had a hostile reaction to an "excuse me": this was a few days ago on a bridle path, not a towpath. And I was having a 'bad day' anyway  (posted elsewhere). Although cyclists are allowed to use them, there are rules of priority: cyclists should give way to pedestrians and horseriders. But an "excuse me" usually works fine. I don't like bells because they're a bit impersonal, to me they're the cycling equivalent of a motorist impatiently honking his horn (something I loathe). That's my view.


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## LLB (25 Jan 2008)

simoncc said:


> I don't mind walkers on towpaths. They have as much right to be there as I do, and if I'm on a towpath on my bike I'm not in a particular hurry anyway. Anglers who block the path with their rods, chairs, little tents and boxes of hooks and maggots annoy me though. When they have to move out of my way they quite often look miffed and sometimes mutter some comment. They seem to think very highly of themselves. *They think they own the towpath in much the same way many horse riders think they own the roads and lanes, but at least horse riders do keep moving along and don't set up a little camp blocking the way for everyone else.*




Horse riders are by far the most vulnerable users on the roads, They don't just have the quirks of the animal in their charge to consider, they also have to put up with ignorant and inconsiderate behaviour of (some) other road users. I think its only right that they should ride as defensively as possible when they use them for the protection of all. 

Would you care to elaborate on this statement ?


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## Maz (25 Jan 2008)

> No. What did I look like?


Mid-30s fella cycling with (presumably) his daughter. Both were immaculately hi-vizd, saw them a mile off. 

Oh and he looked just like Noddy Holder.


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## Arch (25 Jan 2008)

Maz said:


> Mid-30s fella cycling with (presumably) his daughter. Both were immaculately hi-vizd, saw them a mile off.
> 
> Oh and he looked just like Noddy Holder.



So, now we know what Maz's mental image of Mr Paul was like. 

Got mental images of any other forummers Maz?


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## LordoftheTeapot (25 Jan 2008)

Arch said:


> I never have much problem (on shared paths, not towpaths) with a cheery "'S'cuse me!", repeated if not heard the first time.
> 
> In my experience, canal towpaths are often narrow, and I certainly wouldn't expect friends walking along them to walk in single file...
> 
> Alternatively, get a bloody bell, and ping that. They come in all colours these days you know, and hardly weigh anything. Mine is shaped like a teapot.



Could you let me know where I can buy a teapot shaped bell, please, Arch?


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## Maz (25 Jan 2008)

Arch said:


> So, now we know what Maz's mental image of Mr Paul was like.
> 
> Got mental images of any other forummers Maz?


Since you ask - domtyler: 5'8". Mid-30s. Slim build. Definitely dark hair. Clean shaven. Am I right, or am I right?


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## Arch (25 Jan 2008)

Lord of the Teapot said:


> Could you let me know where I can buy a teapot shaped bell, please, Arch?



Well, I got mine as a present, brought back from a bike show in Germany. A quick google found similar (Mine is all black) here:

http://www.amazon.com/Dimension-Bell-Silver-Black-Bicycle/dp/B000U7BRX2

Not on amazon uk, as far as I can see. 

There was a website with loads of different bells, I thought it was called "many bells" or something like that, but I can't find it again. I'll have another look...


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## Pete (25 Jan 2008)

linfordlunchbox said:


> Horse riders are by far the most vulnerable users on the roads, They don't just have the quirks of the animal in their charge to consider, they also have to put up with ignorant and inconsiderate behaviour of (some) other road users. I think its only right that they should ride as defensively as possible when they use them for the protection of all.


What's more, they have a long way to fall when they do come off .

I pass many many horses - this is to do with the area I live in down in leafy Sussex. I am well aware of the stresses which many horses - and their riders - have to put up with. I am always nervous and extra-cautious when I see what I think is a _young_ horse. I believe I am beginning to be able to recognise the signs of a young animal: (LLB) any tips welcome. Sometimes I ask the rider.


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## Maz (25 Jan 2008)

I occasionally have to overtake a horse and rider on my way to work.
What's best to do? Just give them a wide berth? Do you speak to the rider when you're still behind them to let them know you're about to overtake?


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## frog (25 Jan 2008)

'Hi!, may I come through please?'

Followed by: 'Thank You'

Has worked fine for over 30 years 

Even with the little buggers who are throwing stones at a floating bottle trying to smash it.


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## Arch (25 Jan 2008)

Got it! Not a Uk site..

http://www.manybells-server.com/product_info.php?products_id=23

I also like:
http://www.manybells-server.com/product_info.php?products_id=43

One for our Dayvo:
http://www.manybells-server.com/product_info.php?products_id=61

And for Bentmikey
http://www.manybells-server.com/product_info.php?products_id=24

Too cute!
http://www.manybells-server.com/product_info.php?products_id=22

With all this choice, and some very tiny ones, why wouldn't you have a bell?


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## Pete (25 Jan 2008)

Maz said:


> I occasionally have to overtake a horse and rider on my way to work.
> What's best to do? Just give them a wide berth? Do you speak to the rider when you're still behind them to let them know you're about to overtake?


Yes. Best to speak in a fairly loud, decisive sort of voice, don't be shy. A simple "good morning" is all it takes. Remember the horse is listening, too, and most horses are trained to be reassured by the sound of a (friendly) human voice. LLB is probably better qualified to answer this than I am.


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## Arch (25 Jan 2008)

Maz said:


> I occasionally have to overtake a horse and rider on my way to work.
> What's best to do? Just give them a wide berth? Do you speak to the rider when you're still behind them to let them know you're about to overtake?



Yes, speak, gently, but audibly from a little way back (so don't suddenly holler from just behind them). That way, the rider knows to expect you, and the horse knows you're a human being (as opposed to a random predator). I'd generally say "hello, cyclist passing" in a cheery tone and then pass steadily and with a wide berth. Think how you'd like a car to over take you, then apply that to yourself basically. I don't think I'd wait for permission necessarily, unless I was leading a big group, but if a rider asked me to wait or hang back while they pulled over, I'd do so. If on the recumbent, I'd be extra cautious, since horses tend to be even less used to recumbents, which have a rather predatory shape, and often a flappy flag.

On the rare occasion I'm out on the road on a hack, I find my awareness is similar to being on the bike - by half-glancing back frequently, and listening, I'm well aware of cars and motorbikes, less so of cyclists.


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## Arch (25 Jan 2008)

Pete said:


> What's more, they have a long way to fall when they do come off .
> 
> I pass many many horses - this is to do with the area I live in down in leafy Sussex. I am well aware of the stresses which many horses - and their riders - have to put up with. I am always nervous and extra-cautious when I see what I think is a _young_ horse. I believe I am beginning to be able to recognise the signs of a young animal: (LLB) any tips welcome. Sometimes I ask the rider.



yeah, good point, although I dunno that I could say what makes a horse look young, whereas I might hazard a guess.. Mind you, some riders will wear a vest saying "Young horse take care" or similar, which helps

And it's not just youth. You can sometimes tell a horses temperament (flighty, nervy, bombproof) by looking at it, although sometimes it depends on details like the ears and eyes that you might not be able to see from behind. Most of my experience is with riding school nags anyway, most of whom have that specially dejected sleepy look that only a horse or donkey can really acheive... Or maybe they only do that when they see me heading for them...


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## Maz (25 Jan 2008)

Thanks for the info. I asked that cos I think I'm right in thinking that some horses get spooked easily. cheers.


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## LLB (25 Jan 2008)

As Arch says really. The Pony for some reason beyond me was very nervous of cyclists when we first got her (maybe one rode too close too fast or something), and she actually bolted once on the road when a bespectacled and bearded roadie came cycling towards us about 5 years ago.

I think what scares them about cycles is the speed and relative silence which a cyclist can approach them.

If approaching to overtake, then call out good morning/afternoon and then give a wide berth. If coming towards them, then move towards the kerb and slow down again. If the rider asks you to wait, then they will appreciate it greatly if you follow their direction.

Its difficult really as horses need to be conditioned to use the roads with the traffic, but its impossible to do this without actually facing them with it. They are safer out in the company of other horses as they naturally want to stick together.


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## simoncc (25 Jan 2008)

Nobody should be allowed on modern roads if they cannot control their vehicle and predict exactly how it will behave and respond in every situation. That's why horses are not suitable vehicles for today's roads. Many horse riders cannot control their vehicles properly. What's more, their vehicle is not some lump of metal with no feelings, it is a living thing, and many horses do not seem to enjoy being on roads along with modern traffic. Many of them seem very jumpy and nervous to me. Anyone who is a real horse lover would not take a nervous horse on a modern road.

The police train their horses so that they are unafraid of traffic, noises and crowds. Most horse owners who use their animals as road vehicles do not seem to have the same consideration for their horses and other road users that the police do. That's a shame.


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## the reluctant cyclist (25 Jan 2008)

I cycle on the canal a lot in the summer and I sometimes find people walking in front of me. 

I don't think the canal is the place to scare people by skidding to a halt behind them to scare them. I tend to just fall in step behind them until they notice me. They usually do this pretty quickly - it's like there's some sort of sixth sense isn't there! If they really don't notice I might say "excuse me ladies can I just squeeze past?" and whether they see me or I have to ask I always, always, say a very pleasant "thank you very much" to them when I do go past. I can't say I'm impressed with the through of a cyclist screeching to a halt behind me to scare the hell out of me! 

As for people saying "haven't you got a bell" or "you should have a bell" funnily enough I have had this said to me too. 

I haven't got a bell on either of my current bikes. On my road bike there isnt' enough room for a light, computer and a bell (unless someone can help me out there?!) so I don't have one and on the mountain bike I just haven't got around to putting one on it! 

Usually I am asked this as I wait for people to move off the cycle lane and to be honest I'd rather just hover until they see me! If I do hover and then they go "you should have a bell" I just reply - it's okay I was quite happy to wait thank you! Usually that does the trick!


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## LLB (25 Jan 2008)

simoncc said:


> Nobody should be allowed on modern roads if they cannot control their vehicle and predict exactly how it will behave and respond in every situation. That's why horses are not suitable vehicles for today's roads. Many horse riders cannot control their vehicles properly. What's more, their vehicle is not some lump of metal with no feelings, it is a living thing, and many horses do not seem to enjoy being on roads along with modern traffic. Many of them seem very jumpy and nervous to me. Anyone who is a real horse lover would not take a nervous horse on a modern road.
> 
> The police train their horses so that they are unafraid of traffic, noises and crowds. Most horse owners who use their animals as road vehicles do not seem to have the same consideration for their horses and other road users that the police do. That's a shame.



Horses are allowed on roads by right, not by licence. It is up to the other road users to consider them, not the other way around.

How do you think that police horses learn to deal with traffic, do yo uhave any idea how they are conditioned to deal with crowds ?


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## John the Monkey (25 Jan 2008)

Arch said:


> Got it! Not a Uk site..
> 
> ...
> 
> With all this choice, and some very tiny ones, why wouldn't you have a bell?



Wonderful! Tempted by the compass bell, myself.


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## LLB (25 Jan 2008)

> The best way for a cyclist to negotiate a horse on a road is as follows-
> 
> 
> Ride as fast as you can. The quicker you ride, the shorter time the horse has to worry about you
> ...





The pony put her 70 odd stone on my wellied foot the other day. I could feel the tissues in my big toe being squashed by the weight. I shaln't repeat what I said but it began with Ffffffffffffffffffffff


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## Maz (25 Jan 2008)

linfordlunchbox said:


> The pony put her 70 odd stone on my wellied foot the other day. I could feel the tissues in my big toe being squashed by the weight. I shaln't repeat what I said but it began with Ffffffffffffffffffffff


...and ended with uuuuucckkk!!!


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## LLB (25 Jan 2008)

Maz said:


> ...and ended with uuuuucckkk!!!



Not quite, it was Ffffffffffoooooot, gerroff it , then followed by Ffffffuccking hell IIRC 

She is barefoot at the moment, if she were shod, it would have probably been broken


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## Chuffy (25 Jan 2008)

I did like the lady who I came up behind one day on a canal path. I deployed my escalating standard ped warning.
"Excuse me, bike behind...Excuse me!...EXCUSE ME!" 
She heard me at the first attempt, but still had a go at me for not ringing a bell. The fact that I'd politely got her attention seemed to bypass her.....


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## User482 (25 Jan 2008)

Chuffy said:


> I did like the lady who I came up behind one day on a canal path. I deployed my escalating standard ped warning.
> "Excuse me, bike behind...Excuse me!...EXCUSE ME!"
> She heard me at the first attempt, but still had a go at me for not ringing a bell. The fact that I'd politely got her attention seemed to bypass her.....



In the future, if people deliberately ignore my polite request to pass by, I shall be deploying the Airzound...


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## simoncc (26 Jan 2008)

linfordlunchbox said:


> Horses are allowed on roads by right, not by licence. It is up to the other road users to consider them, not the other way around.
> 
> How do you think that police horses learn to deal with traffic, do yo uhave any idea how they are conditioned to deal with crowds ?



I am fully aware that horses currently have a right to be on the road. I just think that right should be removed. That's my opinion. There are already many restrictions on what vehicles can use what roads. 

I know how police horses are trained. It is expensive and time consuming. Perhaps that's why most horse owners don't bother. If I owned an animal I wouldn't subject it to situations where it is obviously nervous or downright terrified, but obviously most horse owners prefer to save a few quid rather than take steps to avoid this distress.


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## Pete (26 Jan 2008)

SimonCC, I don't enjoy going all _ad hominem_ against another forummer, but really your post above is hard to stomach! For the record, I'm not over-fond of horses myself, I dislike some of the activities to which they are put, I gag at the smell of them, I find their droppings on the road a nuisance. _They have every right to use the road_ and may that be forever the case! - it would be a terrible day when that right were denied them.

If a horse rider shows me courtesy (as nearly all of them do) I show courtesy back. Nearly all horses I meet are well-trained and give no problems: they're just another road user to pass by. And I'm always ready to accommodate. A few days ago I met one approaching in the middle of a narrow lane, forcing me to a standstill. The rider apologised for her positioning, she said her mount could not cope with the camber of the road made slippery by mud and recent heavy rain. She also thanked me for stopping. I took her at her word. That little 'thank you' gave me a real lift. That's how it should be, between road users.


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## Dave5N (26 Jan 2008)

Have to say I have NEVER found horse riders anything other than courteous and pleasant. And in control.

Which is astonishing really because they are all without exception reactionary bourgeois representatives of the hated oppressive ruling classes who will pay the price for their unjust dominion of the glorious cycling proletariat and whose time will surely come to answer to the people's justice at summary revolutionary tribunals.

Admittedly some of the women do wear nice jodhpurs.

I always slow down, give a bit of width and say hello. Never any problems. Same for canal paths and walkers. Never had a moment's bother.

Don't think I would ever fit a bell though.


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## simoncc (26 Jan 2008)

Pete said:


> SimonCC, I don't enjoy going all _ad hominem_ against another forummer, but really your post above is hard to stomach! For the record, I'm not over-fond of horses myself, I dislike some of the activities to which they are put, I gag at the smell of them, I find their droppings on the road a nuisance. _They have every right to use the road_ and may that be forever the case! - it would be a terrible day when that right were denied them.
> 
> If a horse rider shows me courtesy (as nearly all of them do) I show courtesy back. Nearly all horses I meet are well-trained and give no problems: they're just another road user to pass by. And I'm always ready to accommodate. A few days ago I met one approaching in the middle of a narrow lane, forcing me to a standstill. The rider apologised for her positioning, she said her mount could not cope with the camber of the road made slippery by mud and recent heavy rain. She also thanked me for stopping. I took her at her word. That little 'thank you' gave me a real lift. That's how it should be, between road users.




If you find the opinions of others hard to stomach perhaps an internet forum isn't the place for you. I speak from experience when I say that many horses seem very nervous and sometimes quite distressed on public roads. There is no reason, other than the owners desire to save money, why this should be. Perhaps only horses that have not been properly trained to cope should be banned from public roads. To me, it seems cruel to subject an animal to an environment where the slightest noise or fast moving object causes it distress, but I'm fully aware that many horse riders are not so concerned about this matter, and have no qualms about taking their horses on to modern roads. That is a shame in my opinion.


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## Pete (26 Jan 2008)

simoncc said:


> If you find the opinions of others hard to stomach perhaps an internet forum isn't the place for you.


If you want to have a play at being moderator, by all means PM admin and see what he thinks. If you want to know what the original wording of my post was, before I edited it to tone it down a bit: well, for your information, what I said originally was _"I find your post despicable"_. How about that? Perhaps language you would have understood better? Anyway forums are all about people disagreeing at times. We won't come to an agreement on this one. Leave it at that.


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## simoncc (26 Jan 2008)

Pete said:


> If you want to have a play at being moderator, by all means PM admin and see what he thinks. If you want to know what the original wording of my post was, before I edited it to tone it down a bit: well, for your information, what I said originally was _"I find your post despicable"_. How about that? Perhaps language you would have understood better? Anyway forums are all about people disagreeing at times. We won't come to an agreement on this one. Leave it at that.




I'm uninterested in how despicable you think I am. This should save you the trouble of telling me such things in future. I have no interest in moderating what you say, nor have I said anyhting to make you believe I am. Forums are indeed about people disagreeing at times. Some people have mastered the art of disagreeing with others without the need to say how despicable they regard those with whom they disagree. Others haven't, have they?

I think horses should be banned from public roads unless they have been trained to cope as well as police horses are. They are a danger to themselves and other road users, including their riders, and they also seem not to enjoy being there. On public safety and animal crulety matters I think it is better that they are banned.


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## Maz (26 Jan 2008)

Dave5N said:


> Have to say I have NEVER found horse riders anything other than courteous and pleasant. And in control.
> 
> Which is astonishing really because they are all without exception reactionary bourgeois representatives of the hated oppressive ruling classes who will pay the price for their unjust dominion of the glorious cycling proletariat and whose time will surely come to answer to the people's justice at summary revolutionary tribunals.
> 
> Admittedly some of the women do wear nice jodhpurs.


Come the revolution, the yoke of oppression will be removed from the necks of the proletariat. 

And yes, the jodphurs. I agree.


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## Arch (26 Jan 2008)

Maz said:


> Come the revolution, the yoke of oppression will be removed from the necks of the proletariat.
> 
> And yes, the jodphurs. I agree.



Probably not in my case, in jodhpurs I look as much like a beached whale as I do in everything else I wear.

Does it make it alright for me to ride, if I scrimp and save to afford the lessons and then have to give up when I don't have the money to spare? I'm sick of the idea that all horse riders are rich and snooty. Yes, you need a certain amount of money to OWN a horse, and keep it properly, although many people make sacrifices in other areas in order to do it. But some of us make do with hiring one for an hours lesson a week.

For the record, all the horses I've ever ridden on the road have been perfectly happy and calm, because they've been experienced sensible animals and well used to traffic. And they will be happy unless some muppet treats them in the sort of way we as cyclists prefer not to be treated. If someone passes me stupidly fast or close when I'd out cycling, whether they are on a bike or in a car, or a van or whatever, I feel uneasy and jumpy. We'd all rather not ride on the road, but until there's a bridle path network covering every field in the country, sometimes it can't be helped, to get to the bridle path.

Anyway, come the revolution, the oil will have run out, so horses will be much more important again...


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## simoncc (26 Jan 2008)

Arch said:


> Probably not in my case, in jodhpurs I look as much like a beached whale as I do in everything else I wear.
> 
> Does it make it alright for me to ride, if I scrimp and save to afford the lessons and then have to give up when I don't have the money to spare? I'm sick of the idea that all horse riders are rich and snooty. Yes, you need a certain amount of money to OWN a horse, and keep it properly, although many people make sacrifices in other areas in order to do it. But some of us make do with hiring one for an hours lesson a week.
> 
> ...



I've yet to see a cyclist remotely as nervous and jumpy as many horses are in traffic. It's not hard to understand why. Anyone so nervous and jumpy in traffic is very unlikely to consider a pushbike as a means of transport. Who would use a bike if even the slight whirring sound of another cyclist approaching from behind caused them to be startled enough to leap from their own bike and start running randomly all over the road? Unfortunately for nervous and jumpy horses the choice of whether to go out onto public roads is not theirs, but their owners, and many owners don't seem to care that their horse doesn't enjoy being out there, and reacts badly to the slightest noise or distraction.

A nice ride along a busyish country lane outside town might seem wonderful for many a horserider, but I bet most of their mounts would forego the pleasure given the choice.


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## col (26 Jan 2008)

Arch said:


> Probably not in my case, in jodhpurs I look as much like a beached whale as I do in everything else I wear.
> 
> Does it make it alright for me to ride, if I scrimp and save to afford the lessons and then have to give up when I don't have the money to spare? I'm sick of the idea that all horse riders are rich and snooty. Yes, you need a certain amount of money to OWN a horse, and keep it properly, although many people make sacrifices in other areas in order to do it. But some of us make do with hiring one for an hours lesson a week.
> 
> ...




I didnt know you can make oil out of horses?


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## col (26 Jan 2008)

simoncc said:


> I've yet to see a cyclist remotely as nervous and jumpy as many horses are in traffic. It's not hard to understand why. Anyone so nervous and jumpy in traffic is very unlikely to consider a pushbike as a means of transport. Who would use a bike if even the slight whirring sound of another cyclist approaching from behind caused them to be startled enough to leap from their own bike and start running randomly all over the road? Unfortunately for nervous and jumpy horses the choice of whether to go out onto public roads is not theirs, but their owners, and many owners don't seem to care that their horse doesn't enjoy being out there, and reacts badly to the slightest noise or distraction.
> 
> A nice ride along a busyish country lane outside town might seem wonderful for many a horserider, but I bet most of their mounts would forego the pleasure given the choice.





I think what your forgetting here,is that most people who own or keep horses,tend to look after them very well,and treat them more like friends than animals,im sure if a horse wasnt happy about roads,the rider wouldnt force it on to them,and knowing a horse owner some time ago,they know what their friend likes or dislikes are.


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## Arch (26 Jan 2008)

simoncc said:


> A nice ride along a busyish country lane outside town might seem wonderful for many a horserider, but I bet most of their mounts would forego the pleasure given the choice.



No, I don't think any rider would choose to ride along a road, busyish or completely empty. Apart from anything else, tarmac is not a forgiving surface to ride on - it's harsh underfoot, noisy, and nasty to fall onto. But sometimes its THE ONLY WAY to get to a bridle path that you can enjoy riding on. On a typical hack from the stabes I use, we have to ride for maybe 10 minutes at each end of the ride, on the road. The rest of the time we are in fields, woodland, bridle paths - all much nicer. BTW, the nearest bridle path is also the York-Selby bike path - we ride beside it on the soft verge. Would you ban us from there as well, on the grounds that cyclists might want to bomb past with no consideration?

Col - you are right, most horse owners (and even renters, like me) adore their mounts. Just like with dogs or children, they would prefer to be running about on grassy fields, but to get there, you usually have to use on a bit of tarmac.

I dunno about the oil from horses thing I do know that horse fat is polyunsaturated, and therefore better for you than beef or lamb fat.


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## Gerry Attrick (26 Jan 2008)

It seems to me that Simon wants to ban horses and riders with an attitude not in accordance with his. I reckon we should petition the Government to ban all bike riders with the "wrong" attitude. Simon could then take up knitting or other risk-free pleasure.


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## domd1979 (26 Jan 2008)

I have. Namely f**kwits out fox hunting.



Dave5N said:


> Have to say I have NEVER found horse riders anything other than courteous and pleasant. And in control.


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## simoncc (27 Jan 2008)

> Simon wants to ban all vehicles that aren't 100% predictable.




That's very true. That's why we ban faulty motor vehicles from the roads and why we ban people from driving them if they behave unpredictably for any reason, such as drink, drugs, old age, using a phone or simply carelessness. Horses are often unpredictable on the roads. That's why they should be banned. And I simply don't believe that most horse owners are considerate of their horse's feelings. I see too many very nervous and distressed horses on public roads for that.

And Arch, riding a horse on a public road is never the only way to get to a bridle path. Have you ever heard of horseboxes? I suspect that most riders would prefer not to go to the inconvenience or expense of one, just as most riders prefer their horses to be nervous and jittery in traffic rather than spend time and money training their horses as the police train theirs. 

Many off-road motorcyclists take their bikes to off-road facilities on trailers because the bikes are not suitable or legal for road use. The same arrangement should be brought in for horses.

Are horse owners a powerful group within the RSPCA? I can't think why they haven't tried to get horses off the road for animal cruelty reasons. Most horses just do not look like they are having a good time on the roads to me.


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## Tynan (27 Jan 2008)

cyclists think horse shouldn't be on the road?

ooo the irony

my daughter rides for a couple of hours a week, she enjoys it very much and it costs us £21/week, and yes, they sometimes ride on the road to get to another part of Epping Forest


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## Gerry Attrick (27 Jan 2008)

simoncc said:


> That's very true. That's why we ban faulty motor vehicles from the roads and why we ban people from driving them if they behave unpredictably for any reason, such as drink, drugs, old age, using a phone or simply carelessness. Horses are often unpredictable on the roads. That's why they should be banned. And I simply don't believe that most horse owners are considerate of their horse's feelings. I see too many very nervous and distressed horses on public roads for that.
> 
> And Arch, riding a horse on a public road is never the only way to get to a bridle path. Have you ever heard of horseboxes? I suspect that most riders would prefer not to go to the inconvenience or expense of one, just as most riders prefer their horses to be nervous and jittery in traffic rather than spend time and money training their horses as the police train theirs.
> 
> ...



It appears Simon is also an expert animal behaviourist! 

I accept that some horses can be nervous in traffic, but what may look like nervousness to Simon can also be spirit. The horse is not necessarily more dangerous because of it. In any event, if other road users treat horses with courtesy and respect and give them a wide berth, the granny pushing a pram out on to the road without warning constitutes greater risk. Maybe Simon, you would also ban grannies?


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## Rhythm Thief (27 Jan 2008)

simoncc said:


> Horses are often unpredictable on the roads. That's why they should be banned. And I simply don't believe that most horse owners are considerate of their horse's feelings. I see too many very nervous and distressed horses on public roads for that.
> 
> And Arch, riding a horse on a public road is never the only way to get to a bridle path. Have you ever heard of horseboxes? I suspect that most riders would prefer not to go to the inconvenience or expense of one, just as most riders prefer their horses to be nervous and jittery in traffic rather than spend time and money training their horses as the police train theirs.
> 
> ...



All conjecture based on "what you reckon" rather than any actual facts or evidence. If you think horses are unpredictable, that's fine. But if you treat them all as unpredictable and pass them accordingly when you meet them on the road, they'll be fine.


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## bonj2 (27 Jan 2008)

linfordlunchbox said:


> Horse riders are by far the most vulnerable users on the roads, They don't just have the quirks of the animal in their charge to consider, they also have to put up with ignorant and inconsiderate behaviour of (some) other road users. I think its only right that they should ride as defensively as possible when they use them for the protection of all.
> 
> Would you care to elaborate on this statement ?



Bollocks are horseriders the most vulnerable road users. They're not as vulnerable as cyclists. If a horserider gets near a cyclists, it's the cyclist that's at risk from the horse, the horse is never at risk from the cylist. The cyclist doesn't pose any risk whatsoever to the horse, but the horse is bigger and could quite easily throw a wobbly and kick the cyclist in. In my view something with 'quirks' that could possibly be dangerous shouldn't be taken on the road, but horseriders seem to consider that this is out of the question.




Pete said:


> I have only once in recent months had a hostile reaction to an "excuse me": this was a few days ago on a bridle path, not a towpath. And I was having a 'bad day' anyway  (posted elsewhere). Although cyclists are allowed to use them, there are rules of priority: cyclists should give way to pedestrians and horseriders. But an "excuse me" usually works fine. I don't like bells because they're a bit impersonal, to me they're the cycling equivalent of a motorist impatiently honking his horn (something I loathe). That's my view.



There is no rule of priority that cyclists should be given way to, as in an official legal thing. The reason cyclists have to give way to horse riders is that horses are dangerous, and pose a threat to cyclists, and walkers for that matter.


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## bonj2 (27 Jan 2008)

Maz said:


> I occasionally have to overtake a horse and rider on my way to work.
> What's best to do? Just give them a wide berth? Do you speak to the rider when you're still behind them to let them know you're about to overtake?



No, don't speak to them from behind 'cos it might 'spook the horse'. Don't overtake too close 'cos it might 'spook the horse'. Don't go over 5 mph 'cos it might 'spook the horse'. In fact, the best thing to do is just to stay as far away as possible and don't make any sudden movements or loud noises.


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## Rhythm Thief (27 Jan 2008)

bonj said:


> No, don't speak to them from behind 'cos it might 'spook the horse'. Don't overtake too close 'cos it might 'spook the horse'. Don't go over 5 mph 'cos it might 'spook the horse'. *In fact, the best thing to do is just to stay as far away as possible and don't make any sudden movements or loud noises*.



Spot on. Was that so difficult?


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## tdr1nka (27 Jan 2008)

Going on present thinking, if we were to ban all who Simon deems unfit to use the roads it would leave only him, as he really is 100% predictable!

As for the OP, tow paths are to be shared and FWIW, walkers, cyclists and anglers are all equally irritating to boat owners who actually pay licence fees to live on and use these facilities.

T x


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## bonj2 (27 Jan 2008)

Arch said:


> yeah, good point, although I dunno that I could say what makes a horse look young, whereas I might hazard a guess.. Mind you, some riders will wear a vest saying "Young horse take care" or similar, which helps
> 
> And it's not just youth. You can sometimes tell a horses temperament (flighty, nervy, bombproof) by looking at it, although sometimes it depends on details like the ears and eyes that you might not be able to see from behind. Most of my experience is with riding school nags anyway, most of whom have that specially dejected sleepy look that only a horse or donkey can really acheive... Or maybe they only do that when they see me heading for them...



This is one thing that really gets up my goat about the horse brigade - how they're constantly trying to educate non-horse people about horses. Dog owners, too, for that matter - if not more so (or maybe the same amount but there's just more of them). Why should _everyone else_ have to become an expert on how to deal with _your_ animal? It's you that chooses to bring it out, YOU should be the one that knows how to control it, and if that doesn't extend to knowing how to keep it calm in the presence of people, then you shouldn't bring it out where there's going to be people.
It's no different from the argument speeding motorists give to people who complain that it's intimidating to cross the road when people speed, that 'if you don't know how the road with fast cars then you shouldn't cross the road'. The attempt to make out it's a completely different issue is a bit hypocritical imho. It's still the "everyone else should watch out for me" mentality on both sides. No different.


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## Rhythm Thief (27 Jan 2008)

tdr1nka said:


> As for the OP, tow paths are to be shared and FWIW, walkers, cyclists and anglers are all equally irritating to boat owners who actually pay licence fees to live on and use these facilities.
> 
> T x



True. I remember squashing an angler's keep net with my narrowboat because he was fishing on a lock mooring. I did give him plenty of warning but he refused to move it. I'm sure there are friendly smiley anglers out there but, as a boater, I found them to be a pretty miserable bunch. And they block both the canal and the towpath with those carbon pole things they use.
I never minded cyclists, and certainly not pedestrians unless they allowed their dogs to shoot all over the towpath by the side of my boat and then failed to pick it up, but it did used to amuse me to see them peering into my living room as they walked past, then hurriedly withdrawing when they realised someone was in there looking back at them.


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## tdr1nka (27 Jan 2008)

To be fair Bonj,
When people offer advice about animal behaviour to non owners it is usually in response to fears voiced.

If you are happy to not know that a dog will feel defensive if you, as a stranger, stare it down or it will continue to chase if you run, then you are welcome to be ignorant, miss out on good everyday advice and most likely to be bitten or have the sh*t scared out of you.

You have learned when best to avoid the violent nutter in the pub or the hoodies on the street so why anyone should feel the need to voice a right to ignorance and not value and respect all non car road users is beyond me.

The outlines for approaching horses are in the HC and work well enough if followed.

IMHO it is the nervousness and ignorance of drivers/riders that is probably more dangerous than the 'possible behaviour' of a horse. Remember we share the roads and cars are by far the greater evil on the roads.

I'm very worried that the OP and some postings are showing real elements of self rightiousness and inailiable right that we all criticise car drivers for driving under the influence of. Or is it just natures pecking order, car bites bike, bike bites anything else it can find on/off road..........?

T x

T x


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## Gerry Attrick (27 Jan 2008)

Eloquently put, tdr1nka.


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## tdr1nka (27 Jan 2008)

Rhythm Thief said:


> True. I remember squashing an angler's keep net with my narrowboat because he was fishing on a lock mooring. I did give him plenty of warning but he refused to move it. I'm sure there are friendly smiley anglers out there but, as a boater, I found them to be a pretty miserable bunch. And they block both the canal and the towpath with those carbon pole things they use.
> I never minded cyclists, and certainly not pedestrians unless they allowed their dogs to shoot all over the towpath by the side of my boat and then failed to pick it up, but it did used to amuse me to see them peering into my living room as they walked past, then hurriedly withdrawing when they realised someone was in there looking back at them.



Ahhh I miss my boat so much, nothing could beat the lazy chug on the first spring days after the winter system closure. Approaching 400yds of towpath and a fishing competition, nudging the BMC to just a notch above idle and drifting past while each scowling angler in turn reels in his line like fury and raises his rod to let you past like an angling guard of honour.

Hehehe,

T x


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## Pete (27 Jan 2008)

bonj said:


> This is one thing that really gets up my goat about the horse brigade - how they're constantly trying to educate non-horse people about horses. Dog owners, too, for that matter - if not more so (or maybe the same amount but there's just more of them). Why should _everyone else_ have to become an expert on how to deal with _your_ animal?


Well, I have never claimed to be of the 'horse brigade' - nor indeed to be any sort of 'expert'! Certainly I know nothing of how to rear a horse, how to groom it, how to train it, how to feed it, how to ride it ... yet what I _do_ know - or make an effort to know - about horses - is how to safely encounter one on the road. Because it _matters_: knowing the right thing could save me, or the horse, or the rider, from injury. And I've already said, I don't actually _like_ horses much. I suppose my position is a bit Voltaire-ish: I may not approve of equestrianism, but I will defend to the death the right of equestrians to be there on the road or wherever I meet up with them. Simply that.


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## bonj2 (27 Jan 2008)

tdr1nka said:


> To be fair Bonj,
> When people offer advice about animal behaviour to non owners it is usually in response to fears voiced.
> 
> If you are happy to not know that a dog will feel defensive if you, as a stranger, stare it down or it will continue to chase if you run, then you are welcome to be ignorant, miss out on good everyday advice and most likely to be bitten or have the sh*t scared out of you.
> ...





Pete said:


> Well, I have never claimed to be of the 'horse brigade' - nor indeed to be any sort of 'expert'! Certainly I know nothing of how to rear a horse, how to groom it, how to train it, how to feed it, how to ride it ... yet what I _do_ know - or make an effort to know - about horses - is how to safely encounter one on the road. Because it _matters_: knowing the right thing could save me, or the horse, or the rider, from injury. And I've already said, I don't actually _like_ horses much. I suppose my position is a bit Voltaire-ish: I may not approve of equestrianism, but I will defend to the death the right of equestrians to be there on the road or wherever I meet up with them. Simply that.



Hmmm... I just don't like the attitude of most horse riders, which seems to be that "I can't control my animal, because it isn't possible to be in complete control of it, so therefore it's YOUR job to make sure it doesn't throw a strop, which it might well do."


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## simoncc (27 Jan 2008)

Rhythm Thief said:


> All conjecture based on "what you reckon" rather than any actual facts or evidence. If you think horses are unpredictable, that's fine. But if you treat them all as unpredictable and pass them accordingly when you meet them on the road, they'll be fine.




Unpredictable vehicles are not allowed on the road, except for horses. I think horses should be banned from the roads like all other unpredictable vehicles. Drunk drivers would be OK on the roads if we all made every possible allowance for them - for instance we could all drive tanks at 15mph and pavements could all be surrounded by huge cages of thick metal bars. Horse riders are banned from motorways. The time has come to ban them from all roads. Many ordinary roads today are much busier than motorways were when they were introduced.


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## tdr1nka (27 Jan 2008)

bonj said:


> Hmmm... I just don't like the attitude of most horse riders, which seems to be that "I can't control my animal, because it isn't possible to be in complete control of it, so therefore it's YOUR job to make sure it doesn't throw a strop, which it might well do."



But surely this boils down to 'I may have difficulty controlling my horse if you cannot follow or are ignorant to prescribed and simple road procedure', is this not what we scream at cars everyday?
Practice what is preached.
What horse has given you a left hook or driven on your back tyre at 30mph, none I suspect.

T x


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## tdr1nka (27 Jan 2008)

I do have a gem of a story vis horses & bikes from some years ago, when I was working for a School Arts project.
We had a selection of bicycles that some South London school children had built up and decorated to look like sea creatures. We were riding them in the Lord Mayors Parade among the floats and marching bands, when one of the bikes which was done up as a sea monster with a tall swinging articulated head rode close to a rank of 4 Police horses causing 2 to rear and dump their riders!

FWIW To train Police horses to be calm in riot situations they take them down between parallel rows of noisy people with horns, rattles, bangers etc. This is called a Nusience Ally.

T x


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## simoncc (27 Jan 2008)

tdr1nka said:


> But surely this boils down to 'I may have difficulty controlling my horse if you cannot follow or are ignorant to prescribed and simple road procedure', is this not what we scream at cars everyday?
> Practice what is preached.
> What horse has given you a left hook or driven on your back tyre at 30mph, none I suspect.
> 
> T x



About 8 years ago I was riding very slowly with a 7 yr old child on our bikes. I alerted the horse owners ahead and we rode past at about 10mph. One horse of the 2 reared up and deposited a young girl on the ground behind it. She started wailing and started to chase her horse. The adult horse rider let us know that we were entirely to blame and seemed completely shocked that I refused to admit this. I told her that I wasn't too happy that she'd allowed her child to ride a horse she obviously couldn't control, and that I was not too impressed that my small companion and I had been in the vicinity of a riderless horse prancing about in the lane in a state of distress.

Horses should not be on public roads. The holier than thou attitude of their riders is a mystery to me. Is there something about riding a horse that makes someone feel superior to everyone else? I'd be ashamed to use a vehicle I couldn't control, and even more ashamed to take an innocent, nervous animal on public roads for my own enjoyment.


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## simonali (27 Jan 2008)

Anyway, back to towpaths?

I walk along towpaths as much as I cycle along them and when walking I frequently get cut up by speeding mountain bikers doing 20mph+, who don't slow down, say excuse me, ring a bell *or* say thanks after I've dived out of their way, grabbing my dog where possible. It is these sorts of people, like the RLJers and no light brigade to the motorist, that cause walkers to be surly to those of us who do slow down and ding our bells, even though we've done nothing wrong.

Like most things in life, there are peanuts everywhere who ruin enjoyable experiences for the rest of us. The average towpath stroller will have in no doubt nearly been mown down by the speeding peanuts, just as I have, and will tar us all with the same brush from that day forth. 

When I'm a walker cyclists are a menace and when I'm a cyclist walkers are a whinging obstacle! You can't win!!


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## tdr1nka (27 Jan 2008)

simoncc said:


> Horses should not be on public roads. The holier than thou attitude of their riders is a mystery to me. Is there something about riding a horse that makes someone feel superior to everyone else? I'd be ashamed to use a vehicle I couldn't control, and even more ashamed to take an innocent, nervous animal on public roads for my own enjoyment.




Was anyone seriously hurt in this incedent, no. Who was in more fear for their child?

Maybe if you had done something to assist after the child took the fall you might have some reason to be so bloody pius.
To feel immediately and unjustifiably blamed is one thing but to extrapolate an imaginary disaster befalling you and your child, as example, over the facts of the event you have recanted here is pure and glorious b*llocks.

If I were a horse, I'd shoot you.

T


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## gambatte (27 Jan 2008)

The 'horse issue' is an interesting diversion, but seems to have sidetracked the original post. If anyones interested I've started another thread with a poll.

See how much support Simons opinion has on here?


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## Muddyfox (27 Jan 2008)

simoncc said:


> Unpredictable vehicles are not allowed on the road, except for horses.
> 
> *All vehicles are unpredictable ... How mant times has a cyclist (or motor cyclist) turned into a corner and the front end of the bike has washed out on something slippery ? you are now in danger of being hit by another vehicle following or approaching ... how many times do car drivers have accidents that dont involve other vehiles ? 1000's per year i suspect ... how many times do you hear on the radio that a lorry or car and caravan has jack knifed ? 100's *
> 
> ...



Jakes Dad


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## domtyler (27 Jan 2008)

Maz said:


> Since you ask - domtyler: 5'8". Mid-30s. Slim build. Definitely dark hair. Clean shaven. Am I right, or am I right?





Not a bad effort Maz, unfortunately you will find that I am sporting a beard these days, I am surprised this has not come across in my posts to be honest. 

Also, you forgot the devastatingly good looking bit!


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## domtyler (27 Jan 2008)

Arch said:


> Got it! Not a Uk site..
> 
> http://www.manybells-server.com/product_info.php?products_id=23
> 
> ...



Do they do an ALF one for you Arch?


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## Maz (27 Jan 2008)

domtyler said:


> Not a bad effort Maz, unfortunately you will find that I am sporting a beard these days, I am surprised this has not come across in my posts to be honest.
> 
> Also, you forgot the devastatingly good looking bit!


Cheers. It was difficult to tell if you were sporting a beard or not, what with that mask you're wearing in your avatar.


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## domtyler (27 Jan 2008)

SimonCC has suffered an unacceptable level of abuse in this thread. He has only voiced an opinion, and it is an entirely valid one too. Small minded and selfish, maybe, but it is a valid POV. Should anyone have to toe the forum line or risk being called "Troll", "F**kwit", "peanut" etc.? Come on, this is not why I come here and I am pretty sure it's not why many of you come here either. It may be acceptable on certain other forums but let's not let this one go that way eh?


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## Muddyfox (27 Jan 2008)

domtyler said:


> He has only voiced an opinion, and it is an entirely valid one too. Small minded and selfish, maybe, but it is a valid POV. Should anyone have to toe the forum line or risk being called "Troll", "F**kwit", "peanut" etc.? Come on, this is not why I come here and I am pretty sure it's not why many of you come here either. It may be acceptable on certain other forums but let's not let this one go that way eh?




Point taken Dom ... I'l retract the bit about car & caravan drivers (they should be banned) 

No really point taken 

Simon


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## Pete (27 Jan 2008)

domtyler said:
 

> ...Should anyone have to toe the forum line or risk being called "Troll", "F**kwit", "peanut" etc.?


Forums are, almost by their very definition, places where people work up anger, and then work it out. Insults will be traded, like it or not. Especially when a forum has a _Soapbox_ which acts as a magnet to this sort of stuff.

However, might it not be a good idea if everyone were to click the _Preview Post _button first of all, and read through their entire post once more, before actually submitting it? I usually do. Indeed, I know of one (non-cycling) forum where you're actually forced to do that - the _Submit_ button takes you to preview mode and you have to click a _Confirm_ button to post it.


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## LLB (27 Jan 2008)

simoncc said:


> That's very true. That's why we ban faulty motor vehicles from the roads and why we ban people from driving them if they behave unpredictably for any reason, such as drink, drugs, old age, using a phone or simply carelessness. Horses are often unpredictable on the roads. That's why they should be banned. And I simply don't believe that most horse owners are considerate of their horse's feelings. I see too many very nervous and distressed horses on public roads for that.
> 
> And Arch, riding a horse on a public road is never the only way to get to a bridle path. Have you ever heard of horseboxes? I suspect that most riders would prefer not to go to the inconvenience or expense of one, just as most riders prefer their horses to be nervous and jittery in traffic rather than spend time and money training their horses as the police train theirs.
> 
> ...



Its a shame that you aren't a deep thinker SimonCC or you would have worked through the answers before you hit the submit reply button.

How do you think that horse riders condition a horse to road furniture ? = If the horse shies away from a parked lorry, or a tractor, or a manhole cover or anything else they don't like the look of, they are brought to this object and shown that it is not a threat to their safety. This doesn't happen overnight, it takes time and you cannot replicate this sort of thing in a field or paddock. To make a horse safe be it a police horse, or a privately owned one, it needs to be educated and that can only be done in situ, not by proxy !

As for the Horseboxes quip ?. The option for moving horses about is to either hack them (impractical in many situations over any distance as there are just too many inconsiderate other users out there, as well as the weight of traffic on many roads), use a large car (4x4) with a trailer as I do (expensive as it has to double up as regular transport), or to use a lorry (very expensive to buy (£20k upwards for a 10 year old Horsebox), and very thirsty due to their weight (single figure MPG), they usually stand idle for 6 out of 7 days a week (to seize up), class 7 MOT plating or if bigger, a ministry test which is big bucks, and storage for them is difficult to acquire). Most will also soon to be subject to the LEZ charge of £200 per day if they need to enter the M25.

Also is the problem of parking the said transport when out. When I have the trailer on the back, I am very limited where I can stop due to the size of the combination. I have to park wherever I can safely unload them which could be a pub car park, or a very quiet back road where there is not loads of cars zooming past, and where I'm not in fear of some idiot breaking into the car whilst we are gone, and then I still have to hack on a road to the bridleway entrance. I can't just park across the bridleway entrance, and any layby's close to the entrances are 'yes you guessed it' - on the road. Cars and lorries aren't allowed onto Bridlepaths, even if they are carrying horses. 

Having Horse transport is liberating, and you can look at any horse owners forum to see multiple posts where the owners are trying to figure out how they can get transport for their animals.
To get a total ban on horses on the roads as you want, would you be happy to subsidise upgrading of the bridleway network for continuous paths, or making all sustrans routes converted to accept horses as well ?, Horses are only legally allowed on the roads, not on pavements.

you are already bitching and moaning about the license fee - which is elective, how well would it go down to be forced to pay a compulsory fee on this in your taxes ?

Whilst we are on the subject of animals on the roads, Dairy cattle are driven daily on rural roads the length and breadth of the country from their fields to milking parlours to provide you with the dairy products you take for granted every time you go shopping or put the kettle on. Would you want cows to be banned for the roads as well ?


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## Dave5N (27 Jan 2008)

I feel very uncomfortable finding myself so firmly in agreement with the horse-riding community.

Or reactionary bourgeois oppressors... _et cetera et cetera
_
See what you've done Simon?

Still,as Lenin said, my enemy's enemy is my friend.


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## LLB (27 Jan 2008)

bonj said:


> Bollocks are horseriders the most vulnerable road users. They're not as vulnerable as cyclists. If a horserider gets near a cyclists, it's the cyclist that's at risk from the horse, the horse is never at risk from the cylist. The cyclist doesn't pose any risk whatsoever to the horse, but the horse is bigger and could quite easily throw a wobbly and kick the cyclist in. In my view something with 'quirks' that could possibly be dangerous shouldn't be taken on the road, but horseriders seem to consider that this is out of the question.
> 
> There is no rule of priority that cyclists should be given way to, as in an official legal thing. The reason cyclists have to give way to horse riders is that horses are dangerous, and pose a threat to cyclists, and walkers for that matter.



Horses are allowed on the road because they are under the control of the riders. If a cyclist were to act in a way to deliberately frighten the horse, then both the horse and its rider could be put in extreme danger. They are fight or flight animals, and 99 times out of 100, they would run from people on cycles acting in an aggressive manner.

The fight bit would only happen if the horse was cornered which is very unlikely on a main road.

The reason why Horses are given way to is because they are animals and as such inherently more difficult to control than a piece of machinery.
The same thing happens on waterways with sailing boats and motor boats. The sailing boats always have right of way because they are more difficult to control, and may have to take an unorthadox route when passing other craft.


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## bonj2 (28 Jan 2008)

linfordlunchbox said:


> Horses are allowed on the road because they are under the control of the riders. If a cyclist were to act in a way to deliberately frighten the horse, then both the horse and its rider could be put in extreme danger. They are fight or flight animals, and 99 times out of 100, they would run from people on cycles acting in an aggressive manner.
> 
> The fight bit would only happen if the horse was cornered which is very unlikely on a main road.
> 
> ...


answered it in http://www.cyclechat.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=8136&page=2


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## simoncc (28 Jan 2008)

If the lower orders rode horses, then horses on roads and their dangerous, nervous, unpredictable behaviour would be banned.

Most horse riders don't care about their horses too much. If they did they wouldn't take them on roads.


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## gambatte (28 Jan 2008)

simoncc said:


> Most horse riders don't care about their horses too much. If they did they wouldn't take them on roads.



I agreed with the previous comments about name calling.

However, comments like this seemed designed to invite them.


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## User482 (28 Jan 2008)

I only see horses in small numbers on quiet country roads, and very rarely do they look as if they're about to lose control.

Don't see what the problem is myself.


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## Arch (28 Jan 2008)

simoncc said:


> If the lower orders rode horses, then horses on roads and their dangerous, nervous, unpredictable behaviour would be banned.
> 
> Most horse riders don't care about their horses too much. If they did they wouldn't take them on roads.



And how, pray, do you determine what a 'lower' order is? Income? Table manners? Accent? Obviously, I ride because I come from generations of highly priviledged secretaries, personnel managers, factory workers and shopkeepers...

To get back to the original point. For as long as 'we' (cyclists) expect or demand any respect from road users more powerful and bigger than us (motorvehicle drivers), we must give it out to others (walkers, other cyclists, horse riders, and yes, motorists). We do this by obeying the rules, and being polite - not to say give way to everyone, but just to extend a bit of basic courtesy. Yes, we all have times we'd like to moan about some pedestrian wandering down a cycle path or stepping off the pavement in a daze, and this is the sort of place to come and do it, but out there I feel we should all try to be as accomodating as we'd wish others to be to us. Sometimes, you can't win, when you come up against someone rude, but the best policy is to mutter under your breath if you must, smile disarmingly, and forget about it.


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## Arch (28 Jan 2008)

User482 said:


> I only see horses in small numbers on quiet country roads, and very rarely do they look as if they're about to lose control.
> 
> Don't see what the problem is myself.




Indeed, I'd be interested to know how often people do pass horses. Obviously, if you have a route that passes a stable, you are going to do so more often, but on the occasions I'm out in the countryside, I ceratinly don't see a horse every time, and that does include rides that pass by stables.

I'd certainly rather pass a string of four horses, than have two or more horseboxes trying to pass me on a narrow country lane.


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## Maz (28 Jan 2008)

I'm always amazed how horses look so calm when transported in horseboxes. Cooped up, engine noises, nothing much to see (unless they're facing backwards). I'm surprised they don't freak out.


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## simoncc (28 Jan 2008)

Arch said:


> Indeed, I'd be interested to know how often people do pass horses. Obviously, if you have a route that passes a stable, you are going to do so more often, but on the occasions I'm out in the countryside, I ceratinly don't see a horse every time, and that does include rides that pass by stables.
> 
> I'd certainly rather pass a string of four horses, than have two or more horseboxes trying to pass me on a narrow country lane.



I pass loads of riders and have seen many prancing dancing randomly all over the carriageway, as a result of me creeping cautiously past on my bike or because of cars passing quietly and slowly. Riders seem uniformly of the opinion that allowances should be made for the fact that they have chosen to take an animal on a busy lane where it is liable to be scared by even the slightest noise or moving object. At least relatively few horse riders have yet adopted the even more selfish habit of arranging to be followed a few yards behind by a friend (or mummy) in a car (always a 4x4, naturally), but this trend is increasing. Such people should be prosecuted for obstruction as well as inconsideration for the animal. 

If horses were able to be passed or overtaken by a car travelling at 30mph or a cyclist travelling at say 15-25 miles per hour then who could object to their presence? But as we know, horses cannot cope with perfectly commonplace events on modern roads. That's why they shouldn't be there.


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## Arch (28 Jan 2008)

Maz said:


> I'm always amazed how horses look so calm when transported in horseboxes. Cooped up, engine noises, nothing much to see (unless they're facing backwards). I'm surprised they don't freak out.



Horses, when not actually feeding or being ridden can just sort of shut down - they rest their weight on one back leg, and half switch off - not asleep as such, just resting, but ready to move at any moment. I expect a lot do that when being transported, at least once they are used to it. Like commuters standing on a tube train...

If you ever happen to be passing Horseguards or somewhere with mounted police/soldiers on guard, you'll often see that the horse is doing this, with one back leg a little bent and the hoof just resting gently on the ground. Every so often they shift the weight to the other back leg, and settle back again...


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## Maz (28 Jan 2008)

Arch said:


> ...If you ever happen to be passing Horseguards or somewhere with mounted police/soldiers on guard, you'll often see that the horse is doing this, with one back leg a little bent and the hoof just resting gently on the ground. Every so often they shift the weight to the other back leg, and settle back again...


I've seen mounted police many a time outside football grounds, though the horses have always been out of their boxes and milling around the turnstiles. I tend to give them an extra wide berth when I walk past!


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## gambatte (28 Jan 2008)

simoncc said:


> I pass loads of riders and have seen many prancing dancing randomly all over the carriageway, as a result of me creeping cautiously past on my bike or because of cars passing quietly and slowly. Riders seem uniformly of the opinion that allowances should be made for the fact that they have chosen to take an animal on a busy lane where it is liable to be scared by even the slightest noise or moving object. At least relatively few horse riders have yet adopted the even more selfish habit of arranging to be followed a few yards behind by a friend (or mummy) in a car (always a 4x4, naturally), but this trend is increasing. Such people should be prosecuted for obstruction as well as inconsideration for the animal.
> 
> If horses were able to be passed or overtaken by a car travelling at 30mph or a cyclist travelling at say 15-25 miles per hour then who could object to their presence? But as we know, horses cannot cope with perfectly commonplace events on modern roads. That's why they shouldn't be there.



Looks like its the highway code that says you should be making allowances.

*215*

Horse riders and horse-drawn vehicles. Be particularly careful of horse riders and horse-drawn vehicles especially when overtaking. Always pass wide and slowly. Horse riders are often children, so take extra care and remember riders may ride in double file when escorting a young or inexperienced horse or rider. Look out for horse riders’ and horse drivers’ signals and heed a request to slow down or stop. Take great care and treat all horses as a potential hazard; they can be unpredictable, despite the efforts of their rider/driver.


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## tdr1nka (28 Jan 2008)

simoncc said:


> If the lower orders rode horses, then horses on roads and their dangerous, nervous, unpredictable behaviour would be banned.
> 
> Most horse riders don't care about their horses too much. If they did they wouldn't take them on roads.



In my local area we have several stables, something you might not expect in such a busy and carcentric urban environment.
These stables are run by Irish Gypsies and they are hardly what you would call Upper class. Their horses are beautifully kept, ridden to local waste ground for exercise on local roads and cause little trouble as far as anyone is concerned.

Without offering any figures or stats to back your words, I'm sorry to say that you simply have a serious predjudice against horses on the road rather than some clever, valid or insightful opinion.

I will suggest again that it is your own nervousness and unpredictability around horses that really scares you and not that of any horse.

Now please take a good long look at Gambette's polite sidestep thread and 
see what the concenus is on this matter.

T x

P.S. Funnily enough just like a horse, your posts have given me something to furtilize my garden roses.


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## LLB (28 Jan 2008)

simoncc said:


> I pass loads of riders and have seen many prancing dancing randomly all over the carriageway, as a result of me creeping cautiously past on my bike or because of cars passing quietly and slowly. Riders seem uniformly of the opinion that allowances should be made for the fact that they have chosen to take an animal on a busy lane where it is liable to be scared by even the slightest noise or moving object. At least relatively few horse riders have yet adopted the even more selfish habit of arranging to be followed a few yards behind by a friend (or mummy) in a car (always a 4x4, naturally), but this trend is increasing. Such people should be prosecuted for obstruction as well as inconsideration for the animal.
> 
> If horses were able to be passed or overtaken by a car travelling at 30mph or a cyclist travelling at say 15-25 miles per hour then who could object to their presence? But as we know, horses cannot cope with perfectly commonplace events on modern roads. That's why they shouldn't be there.



The politics of envy SimonCC  You really do have this thing about wealth and 4x4 owners.

Yet again, you show your ignorance. You have no idea why they are following the horse rider. Have you ever tried to keep up with a horse on foot when they are being hacked for a few miles ?


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## simoncc (28 Jan 2008)

linfordlunchbox said:


> The politics of envy SimonCC  You really do have this thing about wealth and 4x4 owners.
> 
> Yet again, you show your ignorance. You have no idea why they are following the horse rider. Have you ever tried to keep up with a horse on foot when they are being hacked for a few miles ?



Several young women are escorted by cars containing mummy or daddy as they ride on the lanes where I ride. Every escort is a 4x4. That's a fact. Horse riders have no place on modern roads. The road traffic regulations and the animal cruelty laws should be amended to facilitate this.


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## LLB (28 Jan 2008)

simoncc said:


> Several young women are escorted by cars containing mummy or daddy as they ride on the lanes where I ride. Every escort is a 4x4. That's a fact. Horse riders have no place on modern roads. The road traffic regulations and the animal cruelty laws should be amended to facilitate this.



Your assertion that 'all' kids who have horses have plumy well off parents is a myth. I have dealt with the Pony club, and been part of the local show jumping 'thing' for years through my kids, and all I come across say that they have foregone annual holidays and all sorts of luxuries for years to make it happen.

Land owners are usually well flush (this is nothing new), and keeping horses for them is cheap, but for the rest of us who keep our animals at livery (which is the majority), it is a struggle week in/week out to meet the costs with many taking second jobs like bar work.


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## gambatte (28 Jan 2008)

simoncc said:


> Several young women are escorted by cars containing mummy or daddy as they ride on the lanes where I ride. Every escort is a 4x4. That's a fact. Horse riders have no place on modern roads. The road traffic regulations and the animal cruelty laws should be amended to facilitate this.



I could just hear the comment:

“Cycling is a ridiculous outdated form of transport and has *no place on modern roads*….”

Its just too similar a statement not to comment on

Possibly spouted by your slow 4x4 drivers as you attempt to overtake them?


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## gambatte (28 Jan 2008)

Thinking about it, I’d like to see a lot more sheep and cattle farmers. Droving animals along the road, between fields and to milking etc. That’s where many of the roads actually came from and possibly what’s actually required, not banning horses.

Lets get more animals on the road. That way other road users will get more used to seeing them and be better equipped, mentally, to deal with them.

Anyone up for organising the first ‘Critical Moos’?


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## Arch (28 Jan 2008)

gambatte said:


> Thinking about it, I’d like to see a lot more sheep and cattle farmers. Droving animals along the road, between fields and to milking etc. That’s where many of the roads actually came from and possibly what’s actually required, not banning horses.
> 
> Lets get more animals on the road. That way other road users will get more used to seeing them and be better equipped, mentally, to deal with them.
> 
> Anyone up for organising the first ‘Critical Moos’?



And for sheep, a Critical Maaaaaass.


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## Muddyfox (28 Jan 2008)

simoncc said:


> I pass loads of riders and have seen many prancing dancing randomly all over the carriageway, as a result of me creeping cautiously past on my bike



It must be your natural Charisma that Spooks them ... 

Jakes Dad


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## Arch (29 Jan 2008)

simoncc said:


> I pass loads of riders and have seen many prancing dancing randomly all over the carriageway, as a result of me creeping cautiously past on my bike



Well, I've seen that happen with pedestrians when I past them on a bike, no matter how many times I say 'excuse me', so let's ban them as well.

If you are 'creeping' past, that's your problem. As has been said, many times on here, the best thing to do is alert the rider and horse with a gentle hello from some way away. 'Creeping' up on them is the sort of thing predators do.

If a rider then takes umbrage at you, I suspect it's because they are very perceptive, and have you down straight away for the moany git you are...

(Mental image of Victor Meldrew, although, for some reason, with a combover hairstyle)


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## simonali (29 Jan 2008)

gambatte said:


> Thinking about it, I’d like to see a lot more sheep and cattle farmers. Droving animals along the road, between fields and to milking etc. That’s where many of the roads actually came from and possibly what’s actually required, not banning horses.
> 
> Lets get more animals on the road. That way other road users will get more used to seeing them and be better equipped, mentally, to deal with them.
> 
> Anyone up for organising the first ‘Critical Moos’?



Top idea. I love cleaning cow sh1t off my bike!


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## gambatte (29 Jan 2008)

simonali said:


> Top idea. I love cleaning cow sh1t off my bike!



You do?

Pop round ours on a Sunday, I've got a regularly crap covered MTB that could do with a washdown. It'll save me an hour!


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