# Anyone ever considered moving abroad for the better cycling experience?



## Welsh wheels (1 Aug 2020)

As per usual, had my share of stupid drivers on my ride this morning, dangerous overtakes and the lot. Seems to be a very British trait to treat cyclists like a nuisance rather than the way forward for society to deal with health and environmental issues. It made me think whether I would want to move to somewhere in Europe where cycling is more popular and drivers are a lot more considerate to cyclists. When I cycled in France, it was like paradise, mostly due to the more considerate drivers. Anyone become an ex-pat for the better cycling experience? I wonder whether I would consider joining our continental brethren sometime in the future, seeing as how cycling is something I do so much of - it would make sense to reside in a country where the set-up is more favourable to cyclists.


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## bikingdad90 (1 Aug 2020)

@steveindenmark didn’t you do this?


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (1 Aug 2020)

Every single day


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## Drago (1 Aug 2020)

Not really. As mad as it may seem from our perspective, the UKs roads are some of he safest in the world.


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## ianrauk (1 Aug 2020)

If you think France is paradise for cycling then go cycle in Spain. There is no country better for cycling In regards to the way car drivers treat cyclists.
Its my dream to retire to Southern Spain and spend the rest of my days cycling on their wonderful mountain roads.


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## CXRAndy (1 Aug 2020)

Ive ridden in France, Spain and both countries are vastly better in the way they treat riders. It also helps they have larger countries and less dense population


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## Drago (1 Aug 2020)

Yet the casualty _rate_ on UK roads is lower than France or Spain. Only Sweden, Norway and Switzerland have safer roads in geographical europe than the UK. Perception is a strange thing.

France is far form an idyll for cyclists. Hell, convicted drink drivers can still drive Voitures sans Permis, and they usually still do so while pithed.

The only roads I've cycled that I think were genuinely safer than UK roads - as opposed to some rose tinted impression - was Amish country in Pennsylvania, where the roads are broad and straight and visibility is as good as ever, but there were few cars.


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## Baldy (1 Aug 2020)

ianrauk said:


> Its my dream to retire to Southern Spain and spend the rest of my days cycling on their wonderful mountain roads.



I think you're a bit late for doing that now.


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## dodgy (1 Aug 2020)

Welsh wheels said:


> *Anyone become an ex-pat* for the better cycling experience?


Immigrant. You mean immigrant. 

But back on topic, I have considered it, a bit more admin to get over now but still doable and still under consideration. We've looked at Carcassonne.


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## Colin Grigson (1 Aug 2020)

Strike Slovakia from your potential destinations if you do decide to go ahead .... I take my life in my hands every time I clip in here.


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## steveindenmark (1 Aug 2020)

I dont think anyone but a pro cyclist moves abroad soley for the cycling. The safer cycling came just because I moved to Denmark 🇩🇰 to work. 

But you have fantastic cycling in the UK. You have easy access to France, Spain, Holland and Belgium.


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## BianchiVirgin (1 Aug 2020)

Every day. Italy, France or Spain.


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## chriswoody (1 Aug 2020)

Well it was other reasons that drove me to Germany, but the cycling here is vastly better than in the UK.

It's not only the excellent infrastructure that makes it a pleasure here, but we also have pro cycling laws like presumed liability, which means the more vunrable party is deemed innocent. So in a car/cyclist crash then the driver is always presumed guilty, though in a cyclist/pedestrian crash, then the cyclist is considered guilty. 

Generally it all works well and feels a wonderful place to ride, surprisingly though, I see very few Lycra clad "serious" cyclist's, it's mostly used as a viable means of transport here, just as it should be really.


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## Welsh wheels (1 Aug 2020)

Drago said:


> Not really. As mad as it may seem from our perspective, the UKs roads are some of he safest in the world.





Drago said:


> Yet the casualty _rate_ on UK roads is lower than France or Spain. Only Sweden, Norway and Switzerland have safer roads in geographical europe than the UK. Perception is a strange thing.
> 
> France is far form an idyll for cyclists. Hell, convicted drink drivers can still drive Voitures sans Permis, and they usually still do so while pithed.
> 
> The only roads I've cycled that I think were genuinely safer than UK roads - as opposed to some rose tinted impression - was Amish country in Pennsylvania, where the roads are broad and straight and visibility is as good as ever, but there were few cars.


Is this because there are perhaps fewer cyclists on UK roads than France or Spain? I agree, it is about perception as well. France felt safer, drivers were more patient. Or maybe I don't know enough French to know when they were swearing at me


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## dodgy (1 Aug 2020)

Sometimes, what 'feels' safer is all you need to enjoy your cycling. It's the reason why most people are scared to ride on UK roads, they're scared. Hence the big push for segregated infrastructure.
I have reasonable experience of riding in France, less so in Spain and Italy, but still a bit even there. No doubt whatsoever in my mind that France 'feels' safer, therefore it's more enjoyable.


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## Welsh wheels (1 Aug 2020)

dodgy said:


> Sometimes, what 'feels' safer is all you need to enjoy your cycling. It's the reason why most people are scared to ride on UK roads, they're scared. Hence the big push for segregated infrastructure.
> I have reasonable experience of riding in France, less so in Spain and Italy, but still a bit even there. No doubt whatsoever in my mind that France 'feels' safer, therefore it's more enjoyable.


I'm not usually scared on UK roads, but all it takes is one close pass like today that gets me all flustered. It's a hearts and minds issue IMO. If you can convince UK drivers that cyclists are not the spawn of the devil, then driving standards will drastically increase.


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## Edwardoka (1 Aug 2020)

I'd move tomorrow if I could. A stone cottage in a nice sleepy town in the Pyrenees, if you're offering.

My experience for 90% of France and northern Spain/Catalonia was just magic.
The French Riviera had lots of crap, impatient drivers. In Italy the moped riders were suicidal.

I'm sure there are categories of dangerous driving on the continent that don't seem to be nearly as acceptable here in the UK - if you go to e.g. Tenerife you'll see that most cars have more than a few dents in the bodywork. When I ran out of daylight halfway up a mountain road there, I got a lift off an otherwise very nice guy who spent most of the time fiddling with his phone in a way that would not happen here.

Without wanting to generalise, I imagine that most on the continent believe it fine to drive after a cheeky cerveza or petit biere - 20 years ago, someone I used to know in the UK would consider themselves fine to drive the dark lanes of Devon after a couple of pints in a way that would be met with extreme disapproval nowadays.

That being said, the driving culture in the UK sucks, pure entitlement, and the attitude towards vulnerable road users absolutely stinks.


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## Gunk (1 Aug 2020)

Although some of the best cycling I've experienced has been in Ireland and France, I'd never move abroad. Although we all like to moan about the weather and the disaster that is Brexit, IMHO the UK is a still a great place to live.

The grass may seem greener, but it's still grass!

I was out recently on my motorbike very early, and as I was riding through West Oxfordshire into the Cotswolds on mainly deserted roads I was thinking to myself how lucky I am to live here. Not everyone makes the most of what is on our doorstep.


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## Blue Hills (1 Aug 2020)

Not for cycling, no.
I think this is just an all too common/fashionable delight in slagging britain and the brits off, often by folk who pride themselves on being cosmpolitan and broadminded. Which is somewhat ironic.
As Drago says, the French accident rate is significantly worse than britain.
The worst example of driving I ever saw was by a driver of a french plated car in outer london.
Italy also has a worse accident rate than the UK.
Its drivers may be pretty good with cyclists but they often treat pedestrians with utter contempt, which I don't like at all.
A quick google will find endless sorry tales of folk mown down on zebra crossings - not surprising - I've seen shocking stuff.
I have driven a fair bit with an italian passenger in the UK - they thought me bonkers/wimpy for thanking other drivers for small courtesies with my palm.
I was out riding the North Downs and kent today - many drivers waited patiently behind me as I climbed, one even backed up to let me through. I felt a bit guilty so made a point of pulling over to let two cars through later.
There were several raised/palmed hands, and I probably missed a few.


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## nickyboy (1 Aug 2020)

You need to compare apples with apples. If you live in a big town in UK, unsurprising living in a French village will be very peaceful and the cycling too. Try cycling around Marseilles on Lyon and see how that compares

I live in a small market town on the edge of open countryside. The cycling is really good (but hard) with quiet roads and mainly considerate drivers. I have no desire to live overseas for cycling reasons other than better winter weather. Having said that, summers are too hot in S Europe for my cycling

@Drago is right. As a nation we are safe drivers, the stats prove it.


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## HMS_Dave (1 Aug 2020)

Whether attitudes to cyclist are hostile or friendly the fact is when you mix fast moving heavy metal boxes inches from a squishy fragile human accidents happen. For all of the hostility towards cyclists in Britain I dont think motorists are murdering us cyclists, well mostly anyway... Even in the Netherlands there are arguments between cyclists and motorists. I will until the end of my life campaign for better cycling here in the UK rather than move to get better cycling of which the differences are probably smaller than you think. Be the change and all of that...


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## wafter (1 Aug 2020)

If circumstances were different I'd move to the Netherlands (pref. Utrecht) in a heartbeat - the more pleasant cycling experience would be a good part of the reason, but it extends far further than this in terms of how it's integrated into society and plays such a pivotally important role for everyone's mutual benefit.

Even once you forget about cycling completely the pragmatic, responsible, inclusive and egalitarian attitude that led to the country becoming such a cycling utopia is evident throughout much of the rest of the culture too; making it a much better place to live full stop IMO.


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## Welsh wheels (1 Aug 2020)

Gunk said:


> Although some of the best cycling I've experienced has been in Ireland and France, I'd never move abroad. Although we all like to moan about the weather and the disaster that is Brexit, IMHO the UK is a still a great place to live.
> 
> The grass may seem greener, but it's still grass!
> 
> I was out recently on my motorbike very early, and as I was riding through West Oxfordshire into the Cotswolds on mainly deserted roads I was thinking to myself how lucky I am to live here. Not everyone makes the most of what is on our doorstep.


I agree, nothing wrong with the scenery in the UK.


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## Johnno260 (1 Aug 2020)

Would love to move to Lake Annecy, shame about the house prices haha


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## tyred (1 Aug 2020)

I cycled NCN 78 last September and was genuinely amazed at the courtesy displayed by drivers compared to here.

I avoid any main road here but can't generally complain. I really do feel driver attitude has improved in recent years. It was much worse when I started cycling again as an adult c2007. It is over twenty years since I sat my driving test but apparently there is now a lot in it about how to overtake cyclists (wasn't there when I was learning to drive) and I honestly feel it helps as it is very rare to have a dangerous overtake from a younger driver. Those that do are mostly middle-aged.

There is much more of a car culture in the north of Ireland where I live compared to the south but apart from causing noise pollution and generally being a nuisance, young people "cruising" around in an ancient VW covered in bodykits don't put me in any danger. The danger comes from middle-aged professionals in BMWs and Audis.

I actually think I'm very lucky to live here. I live in a town big enough to have any facility I am likely to need but a few minutes out the road in any direction puts me into open countryside.


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## bladesman73 (1 Aug 2020)

Would move to NL in a heartbeat for their cycling infrastructure and their approach to life. Uk is done for anyway due to Brexshit


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## Domus (1 Aug 2020)

I drove down to Tuscany a couple of years ago for a cycling holiday. Driving through Florence I spotted a very old guy with a walking stick on the kerb by a Zebra crossing, I stopped and gestured for him to cross. He looked at me as if I was demented and the noise of the car horns behind was incessant. The old chap refused to cross so I reluctantly carried on my way still with blaring horns behind reminding me of my transgression. When I related my tale to my Italian hosts I was told in no uncertain terms that the traffic stops for no one.


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## raleighnut (2 Aug 2020)

tyred said:


> I cycled NCN 78 last September and was genuinely amazed at the courtesy displayed by drivers compared to here.
> 
> I avoid any main road here but can't generally complain. I really do feel driver attitude has improved in recent years. It was much worse when I started cycling again as an adult c2007. It is over twenty years since I sat my driving test but apparently there is now a lot in it about how to overtake cyclists (wasn't there when I was learning to drive) and I honestly feel it helps as it is very rare to have a dangerous overtake from a younger driver. Those that do are mostly middle-aged.
> 
> ...


Aye if wasn't a cripple these days I'd be off to Ireland in a heartbeat.


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## Brandane (2 Aug 2020)

Edwardoka said:


> That being said, the driving culture in the UK sucks, pure entitlement,


The word "driving" is not needed in this sentence. British people are in general, selfish, arrogant, me me me. And getting worse .


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## Levo-Lon (2 Aug 2020)

CXRAndy said:


> Ive ridden in France, Spain and both countries are vastly better in the way they treat riders. It also helps they have larger countries and less dense population




Yes, we do have a very dense population..


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## PK99 (2 Aug 2020)

Drago said:


> The only roads I've cycled that I think were genuinely safer than UK roads - *as opposed to some rose tinted impression* - was Amish country in Pennsylvania, where the roads are broad and straight and visibility is as good as ever, but there were few cars.



The worst cycling experiences I have ever had were in France on a ride to the Ventoux area and on LP ride, the worst examples:

1. Long draggy up hill. Enormous truck came alongside, and moved closer and closer pushing me to the side until I could have reached out bent armed on one side and touched his wheel and on the other the armco barrier. People in the group asked if I was ok when we got to the top - they had been genuinely worried for my safety.

2. Long straight downhill. Wide cycle lane 20plus mph. Car coming from side-track pulls out to the edge of the road proper ie across the cycle lane.
Full on emergency breaking - choice: Hit the side of the car. Swing in front with traffic coming up hill and rick a head on collision. Swing behind.

I chose the swing behind option, how I managed to stay upright I will never know.

3. Twisty valley ride alongside river. Low stone parapet wall on one side. Rock face on the other. French driver came partly alongside but found he could not see enough to pass, instead of backing off he came ever closer pushing me to the parapet wall to the point I was forced to stop.

4. On the L2P, ride into outskirts of Paris to find booked hotel was a long succession of crazy close passes.

France may* appear *safer because there are fewer cars in most areas, but the standard of driving I experienced on those trips was worse than anything I have experienced in the UK


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## Gunk (2 Aug 2020)

Brandane said:


> The word "driving" is not needed in this sentence. British people are in general, selfish, arrogant, me me me. And getting worse .



IMO It’s been like this since the 1980’s Thatcher is partly to blame, traditional working class communities have been broken down, Britain has emerged into the 21st century a fundamentally selfish country. More recently, celebrity culture has made people greedy and dissatisfied. However not everyone is like this, I still meet plenty of nice, decent, honest people.


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## rogerzilla (2 Aug 2020)

Gunk said:


> IMO It’s been like this since the 1980’s Thatcher is partly to blame, traditional working class communities have been broken down, Britain has emerged into the 21st century a fundamentally selfish country. More recently, celebrity culture has made people greedy and dissatisfied. However not everyone is like this, I still meet plenty of nice, decent, honest people.


Two words: Top Gear. Or, if you prefer, Jeremy Clarkson.


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## wafter (2 Aug 2020)

Gunk said:


> IMO It’s been like this since the 1980’s Thatcher is partly to blame, traditional working class communities have been broken down, Britain has emerged into the 21st century a fundamentally selfish country. More recently, celebrity culture has made people greedy and dissatisfied. However not everyone is like this, I still meet plenty of nice, decent, honest people.


Couldn't agree with this more; we have some beautiful countryside but the country itself is ruined by its population and the shallow, selfish, distractionary and divisive values that have been instilled in them over decades by the privileged elite for their own benefit.

Demise of the empire ignored as a country in isolation we've been in decline since maybe the '60s or '70s it seems, however there have been a number of step-changes that seem to have hastened the rate of the decay; Thatcher certainly didn't help with her love of individualist deregulated yank-style neo-con governance, Brexit will be another cliff-edge drop once the "deal" is finalised and it really sinks in how screwed we all are as a result.

Give it 20-30yrs and I think we'll end up like some poor state in the US or backward country in Europe - minimal / substandard / privatised social service and healthcare infrastructure, massive wealth disparity, no social mobility or future prospects, high crime and social unrest, no manufacturing or self-sufficient production of essentials, a reliance on imports which will be costly thanks to our worthless currency, high cost of living, low quality of life, falling life expectancy..

I'm extremely envious of those I know who've had the opportunity / foresight to already escape these shores


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## Blue Hills (2 Aug 2020)

Domus said:


> I drove down to Tuscany a couple of years ago for a cycling holiday. Driving through Florence I spotted a very old guy with a walking stick on the kerb by a Zebra crossing, I stopped and gestured for him to cross. He looked at me as if I was demented and the noise of the car horns behind was incessant. The old chap refused to cross so I reluctantly carried on my way still with blaring horns behind reminding me of my transgression. When I related my tale to my Italian hosts I was told in no uncertain terms that the traffic stops for no one.


This is exactly my impression of italy, see above. I have also stopped on my bike for someone on a zebra and have them refuse to cross. I can only think that they think my bike an insufficient barrier to the traffic behind. One person looked worried for me - i think they thought the bus behind me might just crush me. I have seen women with babes in arms retreat from the zebra because the traffic just kept on coming. I refuse to see it as local colour. It stinks. As a pedestrian i take an assertive approach to zebras in italy. One of my favoured techniques is to walk out giving the impression that I am not looking at all. This can alarm them enough to make them stop. If a driver who clearly had no intention to stop does only eventually grudgingly stop because of my assertiveness, i have been known to bang on their bonnets as i cross. Some of them, a very very significant minority, are truly pathetic.


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## Brandane (2 Aug 2020)

I've been to France quite a few times cycling, and yes in rural areas it is hard to beat, but in built up areas it is just as bad as GB..

I do remember coming back from one French trip and going out for a local rural ride the next day. Weather was ideal (France had been damp) and I wondered why I had bothered going to France with such nice countryside on my doorstep.

Thing is, it gets boring and repetitive and I need to go further afield to explore new roads. I make use of a good local train service for that. Same would happen if I moved to France or Spain.

For now, I am lucky to live in a relatively sparsely populated corner of Britain with some roads that are still fun to cycle on (and drive/motorcycle on for that matter). If only the climate was better .


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## tyred (2 Aug 2020)

Brandane said:


> I've been to France quite a few times cycling, and yes in rural areas it is hard to beat, but in built up areas it is just as bad as GB..
> 
> I do remember coming back from one French trip and going out for a local rural ride the next day. Weather was ideal (France had been damp) and I wondered why I had bothered going to France with such nice countryside on my doorstep.
> 
> ...



I do know of a couple (friends of friends) who moved from Coleraine to some rural spot somewhere between Newtownstewart and Dumfries purely because they enjoyed cycling there so much.


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## Gunk (2 Aug 2020)

Cities aren’t all bad, I still never tire of my 14 miles circular route in and out of Oxford.


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## BigMeatball (2 Aug 2020)

Welsh wheels said:


> an ex-pat



The real words are emigrant/immigrant, not expat.


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## Blue Hills (2 Aug 2020)

Anyone who doubts the beauty of the UK (all countries are of course beautiful in their own ways) could take a look at the various photo galleries threads, bikes in front of churches, water, odd stuff, shelters etc etc.
And pore over some nice OS maps (tho on the bike i use OSM)


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## DCBassman (2 Aug 2020)

wafter said:


> Give it 20-30yrs and I think we'll end up like some poor state in the US or backward country in Europe - minimal / substandard / privatised social service and healthcare infrastructure, massive wealth disparity, no social mobility or future prospects, high crime and social unrest, no manufacturing or self-sufficient production of essentials, a reliance on imports which will be costly thanks to our worthless currency, high cost of living, low quality of life, falling life expectancy..


V for Vendetta. On its way to a UK near you.


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## Venod (2 Aug 2020)

Blue Hills said:


> i have been known to bang on their bonnets



Thanks for the memories.


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## Blue Hills (2 Aug 2020)

Venod said:


> Thanks for the memories.


A fellow bonnet banger?


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## Dwn (2 Aug 2020)

I've driven in a lot of countries, but cycling abroad has been restricted to short trips in France and Belgium. My impression is that driving standards and the level of courtesy in the UK is very high in comparison to much of Europe (and beyond). Rural France and Belgium were lovely to cycle in and drivers do seem to give more space to cyclists - but not to each other. I'd move abroad for climate reasons; nicer cycling would just be a bonus.

As for the UK is finished viewpoint - people have been saying that for the last century. It wasn't true in 1900 and it isn't true now. The place has its faults but what country doesn't? I was a remain voter but to suggest that we are done for by leaving the EU just isn't true. And it's not as if the EU is short of problems either.


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## Gunk (2 Aug 2020)

Roger Longbottom said:


> To be fair it is not confined to motorists, some cyclists are knobs as well.
> 
> I was on the cycle path (my bad, hate it) this morning, I could hear a couple behind me chatting away for about half a mile, so they eventually come past and I say " I'll take the favour back and sit on for a bit of a breather if that's ok" to which the female cyclist replies "No, we are having a private conversation!"



I may be a bit slow, but I didn't understand a word of that


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## vickster (2 Aug 2020)

Roger Longbottom said:


> To be fair it is not confined to motorists, some cyclists are knobs as well.
> 
> I was on the cycle path (my bad, hate it) this morning, I could hear a couple behind me chatting away for about half a mile, so they eventually come past and I say " I'll take the favour back and sit on for a bit of a breather if that's ok" to which the female cyclist replies "No, we are having a private conversation!"


Why didn't you just wave them past? Or stop so they had to pass?


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## HMS_Dave (2 Aug 2020)

Roger Longbottom said:


> To be fair it is not confined to motorists, some cyclists are knobs as well.
> 
> I was on the cycle path (my bad, hate it) this morning, I could hear a couple behind me chatting away for about half a mile, so they eventually come past and I say " I'll take the favour back and sit on for a bit of a breather if that's ok" to which the female cyclist replies "No, we are having a private conversation!"


Sit on what?


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## wafter (2 Aug 2020)

Gunk said:


> Cities aren’t all bad, I still never tire of my 14 miles circular route in and out of Oxford.
> View attachment 539378
> 
> View attachment 539379


This is certainly all very nice, however one has to remember that Oxford is the second or third most expensive place to live in the country in terms of absolute house prices, and I think the most expensive in terms of house prices relative to earnings. It's also touted as a "cycling friendly" city, which as anyone who's tried to use the provided infrastructure will attest is a joke in its own right - even before comparison to far better developed "cycling friendly" cities in other european countries such as Utrecht, Copenhagen, Seville..

I love the city but (cycling aside) the prices are ridiculous; especially when you look at how it's fraying around the edges; empty retail units, a large homeless population, low median wage, relatively high crime in some areas.

Getting back to the general rant earlier, if you look at house price trends across the nation over the past few decades you can see how wealth is increasingly being concentrated in a few favoured locations (London, Oxford, Cambridge, Bath, Edinburgh..) as evidenced by rampant house price inflation, where the quality of life / prospects / desirability of other more deprived areas slides (the midlands, north, various bits of Wales and Scotland); as reflected in falling house prices.

As the country as a whole goes south those with money are flocking to a decreasing number of relative safehavens, driving up property prices and leaving everyone else to rot.


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## Brandane (2 Aug 2020)

Roger Longbottom said:


> Ask The Fonz


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## Paulus (2 Aug 2020)

Drago said:


> Yet the casualty _rate_ on UK roads is lower than France or Spain. Only Sweden, Norway and Switzerland have safer roads in geographical europe than the UK. Perception is a strange thing.
> 
> France is far form an idyll for cyclists. Hell, convicted drink drivers can still drive Voitures sans Permis, and they usually still do so while pithed.
> 
> The only roads I've cycled that I think were genuinely safer than UK roads - as opposed to some rose tinted impression - was Amish country in Pennsylvania, where the roads are broad and straight and visibility is as good as ever, but there were few cars.


Plenty of horses attached to wagons though. Have to watch out for the horse door dah.


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## DRM (2 Aug 2020)

Domus said:


> I drove down to Tuscany a couple of years ago for a cycling holiday. Driving through Florence I spotted a very old guy with a walking stick on the kerb by a Zebra crossing, I stopped and gestured for him to cross. He looked at me as if I was demented and the noise of the car horns behind was incessant. The old chap refused to cross so I reluctantly carried on my way still with blaring horns behind reminding me of my transgression. When I related my tale to my Italian hosts I was told in no uncertain terms that the traffic stops for no one.


You'd have probably been rammed from behind for doing that around Naples, the worst place I've ever had the misfortune to drive round.


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## avecReynolds531 (3 Aug 2020)

Welsh wheels said:


> I wonder whether I would consider joining our continental brethren sometime in the future, seeing as how cycling is something I do so much of - it would make sense to reside in a country where the set-up is more favourable to cyclists.


Only every day

I've enjoyed brilliant cycling here in Britain and encountered considerate, aware and courteous drivers. I've also experienced cycling in other countries too.

Aside from better infrastructure and greater use of the bike as everyday practical transport, one thing that may be important is a country having a heritage/ love/ reverence for cycling as a sport. 

This was especially noticable in Belgium where bike racing is hugely popular & respected: I've taken my Dad across for a couple of cycling breaks there, & his amazement at how road traffic treated us was heart warming: "I can't get used to them giving way to us." 

I found this also around the St. Etienne area in France - historically a centre of bike & bike parts manufacture - and in the Alps and Pyrenees. Again there's the acknowledgement of the history of bike racing there, but, importantly with a geographical scale that the UK does not have: one side of the Iseran is a 47.5k (over 29 and a half miles long) climb, the highest road in France is 2802 metres (nearly 9200 feet). 

I do feel that the spectacular beauty of the mountains and the physical effort required, and with all the Tour de France history, also has a positive effect on how we're treated by road traffic - there's definitely been my experience with plenty of space given & countless shouts of encouragement. 

If you've been to the top of the Galibier or any of the classic climbs, you'll have memories for all life - a truly rich experience.

So, we can say that there are places where people see riding a bike as a noble thing - inevitably helping provide a better cycling experience.


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## BigMeatball (3 Aug 2020)

DRM said:


> You'd have probably been rammed from behind for doing that around Naples,



They would have stolen your watch and wallet as well.

Worst place ever.


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## Milkfloat (3 Aug 2020)

Whilst I would not move to a country just for the cycling, I have rejected a move to a country because of the cycling. I have travelled extensively and also lived in a quite a few different countries (including the Netherlands, which is not quite the cycling Mecca it is made out to be). It is true to say that attitudes to cycling and attitudes of cyclists vary considerably across the world, the one place I refused my company to move to was Australia, it was cycling that played a very large part in my refusal.


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## BigMeatball (3 Aug 2020)

Too dangerous because of all the kangaroos crossing the roads?


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## Milkfloat (3 Aug 2020)

BigMeatball said:


> Too dangerous because of all the kangaroos crossing the roads?


If only it were the only the wildlife that cyclists had to deal with.


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## Welsh wheels (3 Aug 2020)

Milkfloat said:


> Whilst I would not move to a country just for the cycling, I have rejected a move to a country because of the cycling. I have travelled extensively and also lived in a quite a few different countries (including the Netherlands, which is not quite the cycling Mecca it is made out to be). It is true to say that attitudes to cycling and attitudes of cyclists vary considerably across the world, the one place I refused my company to move to was Australia, it was cycling that played a very large part in my refusal.


I've heard that attitudes to cyclists are not great in Australia


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## dodgy (3 Aug 2020)

You very rarely see any positive press about cycling in Australia. I get the impression Australia is stuck in the 1970s, and not the good bits of the 1970s, either.


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## Blue Hills (3 Aug 2020)

BigMeatball said:


> They would have stolen your watch and wallet as well.
> 
> Worst place ever.


I do like Naples, must go back, but it is true that even off a bike (wouldn't like to cycle there) you do have to have your wits about you.
Truly appalling crime problem as well.

As a wandering student a dodgy looking guy outside a bar in Naples asked me if I wanted a job on a ship.


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## Blue Hills (3 Aug 2020)

Milkfloat said:


> also lived in a quite a few different countries (including the Netherlands, which is not quite the cycling Mecca it is made out to be).


Care to say more on the Netherlands?


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## ianrauk (3 Aug 2020)

BigMeatball said:


> Too dangerous because of all the kangaroos crossing the roads?





Welsh wheels said:


> I've heard that attitudes to cyclists are not great in Australia



You only need to read @frank9755 account of riding in Australia during the Indepac to see how horrific cycling in Australia can be,


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## Milkfloat (3 Aug 2020)

Blue Hills said:


> Care to say more on the Netherlands?


Don't get me wrong, I am not saying it is a disaster  Netherlands is great for utility cycling, although not without the problems of less than perfect infrastructure and other road users to deal with (including a huge number of sub-par cyclists). There is also a huge problem with theft and even finding somewhere to park a bike with enforcement from Fiets Stewards. As a sport cyclist or wielrennen, you are obliged to use the infrastructure provided, sometimes this is not suitable for 30 km/h speeds or dangerous because of overcrowding with pissed up students cycling along with a phone in one hand, an umbrella in the other and their mate on the back.

I love the cycling culture of the Netherlands an it is a joy to participate, but like everywhere, nothing is perfect and other people can spoil it for you just as I can spoil it for other people.


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## Blue Hills (3 Aug 2020)

mm - on balance I think I'd much prefer the vastly imperfect UK scene, which is improving all the time, - don't like the thought of being told where to cycle at all and I quite often find cyclists in London more of a menace than drivers - I often avoid even good cycling infrastructure.
The bicycle is (responsible) freedom for me.

(I had in the back of my mind that you could be forced to use cycle infrastructure in the Netherlands. Ditto Germany?)


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## snorri (3 Aug 2020)

Milkfloat said:


> Don't get me wrong, I am not saying it is a disaster  Netherlands is great for utility cycling, although not without the problems of less than perfect infrastructure and other road users to deal with (including a huge number of sub-par cyclists). There is also a huge problem with theft and even finding somewhere to park a bike with enforcement from Fiets Stewards. As a sport cyclist or wielrennen, you are obliged to use the infrastructure provided, sometimes this is not suitable for 30 km/h speeds or dangerous because of overcrowding with pissed up students cycling along with a phone in one hand, an umbrella in the other and their mate on the back. I love the cycling culture of the Netherlands an it is a joy to participate, but like everywhere, nothing is perfect and other people can spoil it for you just as I can spoil it for other people.


An interesting post, as a utility and touring cyclist I'd never been aware of the negatives you see as a sport cyclist.


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## Milkfloat (3 Aug 2020)

snorri said:


> An interesting post, as a utility and touring cyclist I'd never been aware of the negatives you see as a sport cyclist.


I am all three, but crucially also a grumpy sod that likes perfection.


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## snorri (3 Aug 2020)

Milkfloat said:


> I am all three, but crucially also a grumpy sod that likes perfection.


All three? You're spreading yourself too thinly, no wonder you're grumpy.


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## matticus (3 Aug 2020)

Blue Hills said:


> - don't like the thought of being told where to cycle at all


Anywhere except motorways and footpaths. (broadly speaking). :P



Blue Hills said:


> (I had in the back of my mind that you could be forced to use cycle infrastructure in the Netherlands. Ditto Germany?)


I think that Belgium France and Spain also sometimes compel you. So probably others too! But each has it's quirks, and exceptions (like groups of "training cyclists" are OK in Belgium, I think?). I believe it's very difficult to be prosecuted.
Belgium is the only country where the locals have moaned at me (at 3am! On a deserted urban road!!) I'm, no expert on any of these jurisdictions. As you can tell ...


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## avecReynolds531 (3 Aug 2020)

Milkfloat said:


> I am all three, but crucially also a grumpy sod that likes perfection.


+ 1
I'm all three too. 

Nearly 20 years ago, we once made the mistake of cycling along a busy Dutch road and couldn't work out what all the car horn tooting was about. We'd failed to see the cycle path adjacent (behind a bank) and failed to know that we were required to use the path.

Belgium has been less restrictive than the Netherlands - in our experience - regarding where you can ride, especially for sports riders. We saw many groups/ clubs out on the roads & at a scary level - there would be no way I'd keep up with them.



matticus said:


> I think that Belgium France and Spain also sometimes compel you.


+ 1


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## HMS_Dave (3 Aug 2020)

The dutch are about 3 decades ahead of us on cycling infrastructure, we are in the infancy of adopting it as legitimate transport. Which is why i vote to stay and fight for good infrastructure here rather than move for it. It is possible and the optimist in me thinks it will happen if we fight for it.


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## BigMeatball (3 Aug 2020)

I thought that would be the case about the netherlands. good for commuters, shite for hobbists.

Nothing better than a deserted road in the british countryside then, where you can ride right in the middle of the road without anyone ever bothering you


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## chriswoody (3 Aug 2020)

Blue Hills said:


> (I had in the back of my mind that you could be forced to use cycle infrastructure in the Netherlands. Ditto Germany?)



Here in Germany, you're not really forced to use the infrastructure, however, in towns, you'd be daft not too. On the whole it's well thought through, not just a blob of random paint on the road that leads nowhere. We also have specific cycling traffic lights in areas where it's heavy traffic or complex junctions and you can be fined if caught not obeying it. You'll even receive points on your driving license.

When riding through town, your sharing the space with a lot of other cyclists and need to accept that you can't ride too fast. Some of the segregated paths are also shared with pedestrians, so you need to pay attention and ride appropriately. At the end of the day, my town riding is limited to running errands or commuting, so the slower pace is really no issue.

Outside of town, there are a number of places with segregated bike tracks shadowing main roads. They are generally well paved and pleasant to use, however, you will find slower cyclists on there as well as the odd scooter rider. Road cyclist's looking to ride fast often choose to ignore these tracks and ride on the roads and it's here that it can get a little hairy, out of town, German drivers can be quite fast and aggressive in their driving, not quite as bad as I've experienced in Britian, but still not pleasant.


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## snorri (3 Aug 2020)

Blue Hills said:


> (I had in the back of my mind that you could be forced to use cycle infrastructure in the Netherlands. Ditto Germany?)


I've never felt "forced" to use cycle infrastructure in NL or DE, it was always my prefered option, there was no need for any threat of prosecution.


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## DRM (3 Aug 2020)

BigMeatball said:


> They would have stolen your watch and wallet as well.
> 
> Worst place ever.


But at least you’d have been offered several iPhones to make up for it!


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## BigMeatball (3 Aug 2020)

DRM said:


> But at least you’d have been offered several iPhones to make up for it!


Yeah, all either fake/not working/stolen 

There are just a handful of places I would burn to the ground. naples must be on the top of that list.


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## HobbesOnTour (3 Aug 2020)

The grass on the other side is greener....
It's quite easy to look favourably on foreign infrastructure and prefer it, especially when on holidays

As to the OP, I found that close passes freaked me out simply because I was not in control. All of a sudden something would pass me, shocking me and making me intensely aware of my vulnerability. 
I rectified that with a mirror - much easier to be aware of who was coming up behind me. It really added to my cycling enjoyment.

The ironic thing was that that was in NL and the close passes came from guys (nearly always guys) racing their bikes!

I wouldn't move to a country simply for cycling but it would be a factor in wherever I do chose to live ( currently of no fixed abode as they say).
I love cycling in France - but I don't think I could live there!

I lived in NL for 20 years and the cycling structure is fantastic! But it's not for everyone. 
Rush hour in a big, old city like Amsterdam can be a nightmare - Rotterdam on the other hand is much better.
The country is mainly flat, can be boring and headwinds can be ..... fun  
It is really set up for utility cycling rather than road or racing. I'd imagine trying to chase down segments can get very frustrating on busy cycle paths.
However, I do recall leaving work at 6 am facing into a 21km commute after about 20cm of snow falling and being amazed that the cycle paths were cleared of snow before the roads! 

By the way, the Dutch have such a good infrastructure because of foresight but there was huge amounts of conflict back in the sixties when infrastructure started going in.


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## itboffin (3 Aug 2020)

Yeah I’m on the cusp right now of choosing to do just that and if I should do it 100% or keep a place here as well and flip between the two countries


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## Shropshire65LW (3 Aug 2020)

yes . stuck here at the moment as im a carer for Mum.
im unsure how we stand now with Spain (EU) . im sure its not impossible

other option is live out of a small motorhome and Travel and cycle as long as Money holds out 
and untill the travel things starts to wear thin ..

be nice to do this ...who knows what the future will bring .


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## Blue Hills (3 Aug 2020)

My experience of close passes is the same as yours @HobbesOnTour
Really cannot remember the last time i had a close pass from a car. I get a lot in london and in country lanes. It's always the self regarding twowheel racers.


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## slowmotion (4 Aug 2020)

I know that it's dreadfully unfashionable...…..but I still quite like living in the UK. The tarmac in France is fantastic compared to here and the drivers are more sympathetic to cyclists, but it's not yet persuaded me to up-sticks, by a long chalk.


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## FrankCrank (4 Aug 2020)

A quick scan through an interesting thread. Someone already said the grass is always greener, and how very true. When I visit the UK I cycle along canal/river paths mostly, and very enjoyable it is. Some days I set out and don't get far as the cold wind cuts through me, and I long for the warmth of Thailand. Here, I cycle most days on quiet routes with little traffic, but in the hot season the sweat just pours off, and I long for those rides back in the UK. A benefit here is the area I live is flat. A benefit in UK is you can put more clothes on to keep warm. I think that even if you found a cycling utopia, the novelty would soon wear off, and you'd be looking to new pastures. Such is life 

PS - If you fancy a city cycling challenge, I highly recommend BKK - cyclists are lower than a snake's belly compared to other vehicles


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## Mattk50 (4 Aug 2020)

Norway would be too difficult and I imagine Holland and Denmark to be too easy. Somewhere with more medium terrain, Spain. Lovely people, weather, language, wine, food. That's the one for me!


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## BigMeatball (4 Aug 2020)

Roger Longbottom said:


> From my personal experience, others may say differently, I am extremely glad we kept our place in UK. Speak to lots of Brits in Portugal who have moved and took advantage of NHR and got their ten years tax free but still register at their children's address in UK, the reason, the NHS.
> 
> Must admit after seeing quite a lot of elderly couples, one passes and the other left alone in a country (where they being Brits have ( in the main) not bothered to learn the language) are then left feeling isolated and desiring to return to UK.
> 
> ...



I see your point. Fortunately for you guys, soon this won't be a problem anymore as brits won't be allowed to emigrate that freely.


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## avecReynolds531 (4 Aug 2020)

Johnno260 said:


> Would love to move to Lake Annecy, shame about the house prices haha


+ 1
Completely gorgeous city with a paradise setting for cyclists😊

...from the wonderful flat cycle path alongside the lake, to the tough climbs that are 360 degrees. 
Here's an inspiring article of what to expect in terms of scenery & gradients: https://www.cycling-challenge.com/top-5-cycling-climbs-lake-annecy/


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## Ridgeway (4 Aug 2020)

I usually cycle once a year back in the UK, several decent rides out in the countryside. Four things are stuck in my mind:

1) terrible road quality
2) drivers that aren't cyclist friendly 
3) rain
4) amazing scenery and some great routes

There is certainly a difference in driver attitude (even in the countryside) of say UK vs France or most other EU countries, i just found that drivers in the UK were in more of a rush and much more likely to try to squeeze past you, in most countries around me drivers seemed happier to wait that bit longer until there is a gap.

Just back from a long weekend in the Jura riding and the weekend before that Annecy on some of the Cols there, next weekend Italy at Lago Majorie so much of my summer weekend riding is in different places. Here in CH we are spoilt with super smooth roads although anyone that's descended any of the Alps will know about the rocks that you often find in the road side that have tumbled down, often in the night so morning descents are often an eyes wide open experience.....

Last August (about 2nd week) i had a ride around the Cheshire/Derbyshire border, last climb i can only describe as a river with water coming down the road at about 3cm high.... at least the pot holes weren't visible any more Not sure why i take my bike back when i go but some how it's home and i feel to need to explore those routes i used to ride as a 15-17yr old. 

In answer to the question "would i move from the UK just for the cycling" = no, i'd just adapt and learn to love and enjoy it however i moved for work and infinitely prefer the cycling in warmer (dryer) climates with decent road surfaces and slightly more patient drivers, also the coffee is generally better but there's no Greggs sausage rolls here


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## Johnno260 (4 Aug 2020)

avecReynolds531 said:


> + 1
> Completely gorgeous city with a paradise setting for cyclists😊
> 
> ...from the wonderful flat cycle path alongside the lake, to the tough climbs that are 360 degrees.
> Here's an inspiring article of what to expect in terms of scenery & gradients: https://www.cycling-challenge.com/top-5-cycling-climbs-lake-annecy/



I loved it there, it's the reason I got the Thule tow bar carrier, my wife booked the holiday I just said France is fine with me, when I saw the pictures I said there is no way I'm not taking the bike.

Every morning I did a full lap of the lake, and I did some of the climbs from your link, it was paradise the infrastructure was amazing, the part of the lake with no cycle path I had no issues with drivers all were patient, I really didn't want to come home.

The Netherlands from the previous holiday was amazing as well, so easy with my daughter and a tag along going from town to town for coffee and cake.

But Annecy I can't wait to return it's just beautiful there, I can't recommend it enough.


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## Ridgeway (4 Aug 2020)

One of the previous weekends sorties at Annecy:







I'm lucky that it's only 90mins away from us, our "Lake District" so to speak


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## nagden (4 Aug 2020)

I have lived in Normandy for the last 16 years. I did not move here just for the cycling but it is an added bonus. The roads are very quiet and I am always given plenty of space. On rare visits back to Dover where we lived I am shocked at the amount of traffic and would not ride around there now.


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## DRM (4 Aug 2020)

Yes I would certainly like to live in France, it’s so much more than the cycling though, although that is a big plus,


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## Edwardoka (4 Aug 2020)

DRM said:


> Yes I would certainly like to live in France, it’s so much more than the cycling though, although *that is a big plus*,


Are you sure you've not gotten it confused with Switzerland?

I can't resist a flag joke, sorry.


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## frank9755 (4 Aug 2020)

ianrauk said:


> You only need to read @frank9755 account of riding in Australia during the Indepac to see how horrific cycling in Australia can be,



Australia actually has good cycle lane infrastructure in most of the big cities, where the bulk of the people live. But, on the roads, cyclists have very low status. There is an expectation that they should ride in the gutter at all times and, if you act differently, motorists are confused and usually aggressive. Neither are good, so it's best to stay in the gutter. I only took primary position once in Australia - the driver's reaction (confusion / bewilderment rather than aggression) scared me too much to do it again. 

Cycling in Australia gave me a good insight into what it might feel like to be part of an oppressed group in society.


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## Bonus (4 Aug 2020)

ianrauk said:


> If you think France is paradise for cycling then go cycle in Spain. There is no country better for cycling In regards to the way car drivers treat cyclists.
> Its my dream to retire to Southern Spain and spend the rest of my days cycling on their wonderful mountain roads.



I live in Spain and I can tell you that around here drivers give road riders a good couple of meters when passing - usually crossing right over to the other side of the road to pass you. If they can't pass safely they wait.

Compared tp the UK - I lived in the SE - it's heaven!


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## avecReynolds531 (4 Aug 2020)

Bonus said:


> I live in Spain and I can tell you that around here drivers give road riders a good couple of meters when passing - usually crossing right over to the other side of the road to pass you. If they can't pass safely they wait.
> 
> Compared tp the UK - I lived in the SE - it's heaven!


+ 1
That was my experience of Spanish drivers: with regard to the bike - patient, aware, respectful. 
Like Belgium & France, Spain is a country that values cycling as an important sport, with a large participation, and a significant history.

_'Compared tp the UK - I lived in the SE - it's heaven!' - _That is my experience of the SE too.


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## Mattk50 (4 Aug 2020)

Roger Longbottom said:


> Sorry I may have mislead, I personally did not apply for NHR as it means registering to become a Resident, something which we weren't interested in.
> 
> N.B. NHR Non Habitual Tax Residency was a way to entice wealthy Northern Europeans to Portugal giving them a ten year tax break on money earned, UK pensions etc. Civil Service pensions however did not qualify. It meant if you had a tasty occupational pension it would be paid from UK but received in Portugal and the UK government couldn't tax it.
> Portugal in the last couple of years has included France in this scheme and certainly where we are is now becoming like mini France.
> It is my understanding that no new UK applicants after Brexit is done.


It's my understanding that the NHR scheme is being withdrawn due to the EU looking on it unfavourably i.e. not all EU countries are doing it or similar. I may be wrong though. But the NHR scheme seems enticing to me, 10 years of drawing down your pension pot tax free and only having to spend 6 months a year in Portugal.


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## Mattk50 (4 Aug 2020)

Roger Longbottom said:


> Yes I think it is 183 days a year to qualify, but who would know, anyway you will need to be quick as I am pretty sure it goes on Dec 31.
> 
> Plenty of topics / info on here.
> 
> https://britishexpats.com/forum/portugal-89/


Unfortunately I'm only 51 so have 4 years left to go to start withdrawing my pension pot. My wife says she wouldnt go anyway as she likes the winters here........ that is not a joke lol!


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## Johnno260 (4 Aug 2020)

avecReynolds531 said:


> _'Compared tp the UK - I lived in the SE - it's heaven!' - _That is my experience of the SE too.



I’m in the SE and it’s horrible 2 or 4 wheels people are in too much of a rush I think and leave zero extra time for journeys.

Tunbridge Wells where I work I ended up stopping my partial commutes due to down right dangerous and obnoxious drivers, the final nail was someone not stopping at a roundabout while I was on it and I had right of way, they turned right in front of me and I dropped the bike and fell off, instantly the car behind leant on the horn and started hurling abuse, he then floored it and almost crushed my hand, I never rode in T Wells again after that.

Using the car isn’t much better, too many people and too many impatient people which is a bad mix.


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## avecReynolds531 (4 Aug 2020)

Johnno260 said:


> I’m in the SE and it’s horrible 2 or 4 wheels people are in too much of a rush I think and leave zero extra time for journeys.


Yes, sounds very familiar, unfortunately. Sorry to hear of the hassle you've encountered. 

An old colleague used to say: "Everyone takes half an hour to get to work, but they leave at twenty five to..."


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## cyberknight (5 Aug 2020)

I do but the rest of the family might find me


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## gavroche (5 Aug 2020)

avecReynolds531 said:


> + 1
> That was my experience of Spanish drivers: with regard to the bike - patient, aware, respectful.
> Like Belgium & France, Spain is a country that values cycling as an important sport, with a large participation, and a significant history.
> 
> _'Compared tp the UK - I lived in the SE - it's heaven!' - _That is my experience of the SE too.


That is what makes it so different from the UK. Cycling in those countries is part of the culture and is a top sport with many followers, hence the respect from drivers as many of them also cycle.


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## Ridgeway (5 Aug 2020)

gavroche said:


> That is what makes it so different from the UK. Cycling in those countries is part of the culture and is a top sport with many followers, hence the respect from drivers as many of them also cycle.



That summarises it very well. When i say to people in the UK that i like road cycling i get some "argh one of the lycra brigade" looks where as in Italy, France or Spain i often get asked about which climbs, where do you ride, did who was your favourite Pantani, Indurain, Hinault etc and just nice comments about what a wonderful sport it is (as well as an odd dig about Sky/Ineos)


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## avecReynolds531 (5 Aug 2020)

gavroche said:


> That is what makes it so different from the UK. Cycling in those countries is part of the culture and is a top sport with many followers, hence the respect from drivers as many of them also cycle.


+ 1
well said... & that's what I was trying to put across earlier in this thread (post 55). It's important & undoubtedly does create a better cycling experience.


Ridgeway said:


> That summarises it very well. When i say to people in the UK that i like road cycling i get some "argh one of the lycra brigade" looks where as in Italy, France or Spain i often get asked about which climbs, where do you ride, did who was your favourite Pantani, Indurain, Hinault etc and just nice comments about what a wonderful sport it is (as well as an odd dig about Sky/Ineos)


+ 1
My experience too 

It's also common when out riding, to receive messages of encouragement, often from people who live on the sides of the road, often other cyclists and drivers: I've heard "Bonne Chance!" & "Bonne Route!" in France, "Venga Venga!" in Spain, "Vai Vai!" & "Buona Salita!" in Italy, "Hup Hup!" in Belgium & the Netherlands. For some reason, this is multiplied a lot when we've been on a tandem 

Edit - included drivers & tandem.

It's a fine contrast to variants of "Get off the f***ing road!" which you get to hear all too often. 

Factor in weather, road surfaces & the geography that provides such stunning routes, then it's not surprising that many of us enjoy turning pedals elsewhere.😊


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## matticus (5 Aug 2020)

avecReynolds531 said:


> It's also common when out riding, to receive messages of encouragement, often from people who live on the sides of the road, often other cyclists: I've heard "Bonne Chance!" & "Bonne Route!" in France, "Venga Venga!" in Spain, "Vai Vai!" & "Buona Salita!" in Italy, "Hup Hup!" in Belgium & the Netherlands.


2 weeks ago on a long climb in the Dales, young woman driving down shouted out "Youre nearly there, go go!" (I was nowhere near, but anyway ...)
Took me a minute to comprehend what had actually happened!

Might be a while before that happens again in the UK :P meanwhile, on my first Belgium trip I spent a morning with a local cycle-tourist. I asked him how the locals (drivers) reacted when a town was disrupted by a big ride, or cycling festival etc. he said:
"_It's no problem. Everyone in town will join in, in some way._"


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## Blue Hills (5 Aug 2020)

I live up a big london hill, dead end, often get "encouraging" comments from pedestrians when I'm hauling my shopping up it.
Also sometimes get bits of french from kids in the countryside.
Of course being britain I think they are very often taking the P  but I can live with it.


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## dodgy (6 Aug 2020)

Blue Hills said:


> I live up a big london hill, dead end, often get "encouraging" comments from pedestrians when I'm hauling my shopping up it.
> Also sometimes get bits of french from kids in the countryside.
> Of course being britain I think they are very often taking the P  but I can live with it.



On our very first visit to the French Alps in 2010, we stayed at a friend's place in Verchaix. I'd never ridden in France until then, my first ride was up Col de Joux Plane, a fearsome climb by most TdF standards, but I was keen to give it a go even though I'm a terrible climber! Anyway, scorching hot day, within five minutes from the start a campervan pulls alongside and 2 French kids were offering me bottles of water out the window. I still remember it clearly.
I've only ever been treated to harassment by UK drivers pulling alongside 🤷‍♂️


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## itboffin (6 Aug 2020)

i've had cars pull alongside me at the bottom of descents in the UK in amazement at how fast i'd gone downhill  erm never going up


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## dodgy (6 Aug 2020)

itboffin said:


> i've had cars pull alongside me at the bottom of descents in the UK in amazement at how fast i'd gone downhill  erm never going up



Another thing, French drivers pull over to let you overtake on big Col descents, knowing you can easily outpace them.


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## Ridgeway (6 Aug 2020)

dodgy said:


> Another thing, French drivers pull over to let you overtake on big Col descents, knowing you can easily outpace them.



Yes agree with that, i often pass cars on descents but mainly because they slow down and pull across to allow me to continue on my way.


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## DRM (6 Aug 2020)

dodgy said:


> Another thing, French drivers pull over to let you overtake on big Col descents, knowing you can easily outpace them.


In the UK they’d prefer to pull out in front of you


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## 1lor (8 Feb 2021)

When I went to Holland I loved the biking culture the part of maastrict I was inwas very pleasant, no trouble on the street everyone looked happy, clean and tidy I would move there if I could it was a stark difference to UK lifenive experienced .


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## DRM (8 Feb 2021)

DRM said:


> In the UK they’d prefer to pull out in front of you


Don’t I know it, even on little descents, had a prat in a BMW pull out of the side street, near the cafe opposite Newmillerdam, Wakefield , despite the fact that it’s very easy to trigger the speed warning sign, if I’d caught him I’d have ripped his head off, would have been doing around 30 mph at the time, the idiot flew up the road when they realised and heard me doing my finest RSM impression and turned right up a steep hill to get away.


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## gbb (8 Feb 2021)

Ever thought if moving abroad for better cycling ?....no.
I'm finished 'proper cycling' but when I was I absolutely loved the variety of countryside I could enjoy on two wheels.
The flat Fens, for a good workout, no respite, no freewheeling, just work, enjoy riding along drains and rivers, farms and fields, wildlife, wildlife etc.
The rolling Northants countryside, inclines not too steep, not too long, sweeping up and down, again the countryside and panorama to enjoy.
Closed lanes and countryside headed toward Stamford.
Long slow inclines headed south toward Alconbury and beyond, then the gentle downhill all the way back.

I've spent hundreds of hours and thousands of miles enjoying our countryside on two wheels. Of course theres always an odd idiot out there...we all get it, but the pros far far outweigh the cons IME.

I've been to Spain, I never saw anything out there that attracted me. Cyprus was nice around Akrotiri but not that nice (i think theres a good cycling scene out there). Uruguay was visually quite like the UK, all the other countries I've been to seem like hell holes on the road...cant see why I'd want to swap.

Which makes you realise how lucky we are. We can cycle and get fit anywhere, on the road, in your shed, in a gym...what you get here is an ever changing, fairly beautiful countryside. Wouldn't swap it for anywhere else I've been.


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## DCLane (8 Feb 2021)

DRM said:


> Don’t I know it, even on little descents, had a prat in a BMW pull out of the side street, near the cafe opposite Newmillerdam, Wakefield , despite the fact that it’s very easy to trigger the speed warning sign, if I’d caught him I’d have ripped his head off, would have been doing around 30 mph at the time, the idiot flew up the road when they realised and heard me doing my finest RSM impression and turned right up a steep hill to get away.



You're not the only one. A club-mate was taken out at that junction.


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## snorri (8 Feb 2021)

1lor said:


> When I went to Holland I loved the biking culture the part of maastrict I was inwas very pleasant, no trouble on the street everyone looked happy, clean and tidy I would move there if I could it was a stark difference to UK lifenive experienced .


I felt much the same, it was just a pleasure getting around separated for the most part from motorised vehicles. As I'd passed my own Best Before date I was conscious of the mobility enjoyed by older people, again thanks to the segregation from motor traffic they felt safe to roam.
It's easy to look at a country through rose coloured specs when touring in summer, but at the end of a visit to NL I always felt I was leaving a better place to return to a country in decline.
In answer to the thread title, no, there's more to life than cycling.


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## 1lor (8 Feb 2021)

snorri said:


> I felt much the same, it was just a pleasure getting around separated for the most part from motorised vehicles. As I'd passed my own Best Before date I was conscious of the mobility enjoyed by older people, again thanks to the segregation from motor traffic they felt safe to roam.
> It's easy to look at a country through rose coloured specs when touring in summer, but at the end of a visit to NL I always felt I was leaving a better place to return to a country in decline.
> In answer to the thread title, no, there's more to life than cycling.


Agree with you


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## SkipdiverJohn (9 Feb 2021)

Blue Hills said:


> I think this is just an all too common/fashionable delight in slagging britain and the brits off, often by folk who pride themselves on being cosmpolitan and broadminded. Which is somewhat ironic.
> As Drago says, the French accident rate is significantly worse than britain.



There's a lot worse countries in the world than the UK, and the supposed attraction of some of these other places probably has more to do with having warmer sunnier weather than anything.
To a large extent, you make your own luck when you are on the roads no matter what kind of vehicle you are using. We live in an overpopulated country so encountering large volumes of other vehicles in most areas is just a fact of life. Deal with it or don't go out!.


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## Blue Hills (9 Feb 2021)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> There's a lot worse countries in the world than the UK, and the supposed attraction of some of these other places probably has more to do with having warmer sunnier weather than anything.
> To a large extent, you make your own luck when you are on the roads no matter what kind of vehicle you are using. We live in an overpopulated country so encountering large volumes of other vehicles in most areas is just a fact of life. Deal with it or don't go out!.


I recommend cycletravel skipdiver - you can ride for tens of miles hardly seeing a thing - we aren't so crowded.


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## DRM (9 Feb 2021)

DCLane said:


> You're not the only one. A club-mate was taken out at that junction.


People just don't look properly before setting off


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## Gunk (9 Feb 2021)

1lor said:


> When I went to Holland I loved the biking culture the part of maastrict I was inwas very pleasant, no trouble on the street everyone looked happy, clean and tidy I would move there if I could it was a stark difference to UK lifenive experienced .



I’ve been to Maastricht a couple of times, lovely city, and a nice part of Holland.


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## clid61 (13 Feb 2021)

Morroco


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## Mike Ayling (14 Feb 2021)

Come to Oz. We have our share of stupid motorists but we have far less Covid!

Mike


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## weareHKR (15 Feb 2021)

Mike Ayling said:


> Come to Oz. We have our share of stupid motorists but we have far less Covid!
> Mike


Yeah but you have deadly Jellyfish, snakes, Crocodiles, Octopus, Stonefish, Sharks to name a few, I'll take my chances in here thanks... 😂😂


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## SkipdiverJohn (15 Feb 2021)

I was just thinking myself that compared with all the snappy & poisonous Australian wildlife the virus doesn't seem that bad....


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## Oldhippy (15 Feb 2021)

And the overtly right wing anti climate change government don't appeal, helmets are law and the indigenous population are still treated appallingly. Beautiful country though.


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## mjr (15 Feb 2022)

Drago said:


> Not really. As mad as it may seem from our perspective, the UKs roads are some of he safest in the world.


But how much of that official statistical impression is because the UK excludes many cyclist injuries from road casualty counts, both formally (UK doesn't count dropping an ebike on oneself when dismounting as a road casualty, but NL and some others do) and informally (the continuing refusal of several police forces to accept that things like no-motors-except-access bypassed former A roads are still roads, so they don't record the injuries on them). Just be cautious about international comparisons: many of the international datasets are for comparing with history not between countries, so don't even try to adjust for this.

Back to the question: I won't move only for the cycling but it is a factor in the decision. We moved within the UK to this house partly because it has a cycleway outside.


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## SkipdiverJohn (18 Feb 2022)

I'm mostly bothered about how convenient the transport connections are, and whether there's a half decent local hostelry nearby that serves proper beer.


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## the snail (18 Feb 2022)

Drago said:


> ... the UKs roads are some of he safest in the world.


if you're in a car..


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## Rusty Nails (18 Feb 2022)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> I'm mostly bothered about how convenient the transport connections are, and whether there's a *half decent* local hostelry nearby that serves proper beer.


I hear that some Wetherspoons are almost getting close to half decent, and they are everywhere except that there Abroadland, although they do have some in the EU (Ireland).


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## Blue Hills (19 Feb 2022)

Rusty Nails said:


> I hear that some Wetherspoons are almost getting close to half decent, a


oo - do recommend some/your faves from your personal researches.


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## Rusty Nails (19 Feb 2022)

Blue Hills said:


> oo - do recommend some/your faves from your personal researches.


Hearsay only.

I occasionally use the Gatekeeper in Cardiff centre for meet-ups with old colleagues or the Mount Stuart down the Bay for bacon sandwiches on a bike ride. They are OK but nothing more. The Ernest Willows in City Road is cheap and not so cheerful.


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## Blue Hills (19 Feb 2022)

Rusty Nails said:


> Hearsay only.
> 
> I occasionally use the Gatekeeper in Cardiff centre for meet-ups with old colleagues or the Mount Stuart down the Bay for bacon sandwiches on a bike ride. They are OK but nothing more. The Ernest Willows in City Road is cheap and not so cheerful.


noted, though you should get about more.


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## Rusty Nails (19 Feb 2022)

Blue Hills said:


> noted, though you should get about more.


I must admit Spoons is not my first pub of choice when out and about, and on rides I usually eat at Greggs.


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## Adam4868 (19 Feb 2022)

Rusty Nails said:


> I must admit Spoons is not my first pub of choice when out and about, and on rides I usually eat at Greggs.


More upmarket 😁


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## mjr (23 Feb 2022)

Rusty Nails said:


> I must admit Spoons is not my first pub of choice when out and about, and on rides I usually eat at Greggs.


That was going so well until the final word! Greggs are a last resort for when real cake shops are closed or you need food before leaving a suburban chain-store tarmac wasteland.

Abroad, the wasteland hypermarkets more often have a real bakery in an arcade on one side. I suspect either government or customers insisted on it.


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## Adam4868 (23 Feb 2022)

mjr said:


> That was going so well until the final word! Greggs are a last resort for when real cake shops are closed or you need food before leaving a suburban chain-store tarmac wasteland.


Better to bonk than eat that sh1te.


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## mjr (23 Feb 2022)

Adam4868 said:


> Better to bonk than eat that sh1te.


nsfw:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6deUbS0bDo

But anything is better than the bonk, really.


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## Oldhippy (23 Feb 2022)

Why don't people just take a sandwich and a chocolate bar? It so needn't be an issue! If someone wants to play at being a tour de France tribute act those go faster cycle tops have pockets don't they?


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## Rusty Nails (23 Feb 2022)

mjr said:


> That was going so well until the final word! Greggs are a last resort for when real cake shops are closed or you need food before leaving a suburban chain-store tarmac wasteland.
> 
> Abroad, the wasteland hypermarkets more often have a real bakery in an arcade on one side. I suspect either government or customers insisted on it.


A lot of my rides include a suburban chain-store tarmac wasteland, but not abroad.

Gregg’s mush is great. Bacon roll and a flat white for around £3 and back on the bike in 10 minutes. You don’t get that sort of quality out in the sticks.


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## Rusty Nails (23 Feb 2022)

Oldhippy said:


> Why don't people just take a sandwich and a chocolate bar? It so needn't be an issue! If someone wants to play at being a tour de France tribute act those go faster cycle tops have pockets don't they?


I like spending money to keep the economy going.


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## Adam4868 (23 Feb 2022)

Rusty Nails said:


> I like spending money to keep the economy going.





Rusty Nails said:


> Bacon roll and a flat white for around £3


Living the dream 🙄


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## mjr (23 Feb 2022)

Oldhippy said:


> Why don't people just take a sandwich and a chocolate bar? It so needn't be an issue! If someone wants to play at being a tour de France tribute act those go faster cycle tops have pockets don't they?


Ever been poisoned by a sweaty sandwich? It ain't a fun experience. And some very nice foods are too fragile to travel well in a pocket or even a saddlebag or bar bag. And I'm not carrying all my food for a week tour. Heck, I chew through enough food in a day that carrying a picnic lunch means taking the big saddlebag... all in all, it's more fun to stop and enjoy the local delicacies such as a crab salad sandwich in Wells-next-the-Sea, one of Laddie's Famous Ices in Holbeach, or empanadas at Woodlakes. 



Rusty Nails said:


> Gregg’s mush is great. Bacon roll and a flat white for around £3 and back on the bike in 10 minutes. You don’t get that sort of quality out in the sticks.


No, you get far better 

(And if you get through Greggs in 10 minutes, then the ones near you must have far fewer dithery prats than every one I've ever been in!)


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## Oldhippy (23 Feb 2022)

mjr said:


> Ever been poisoned by a sweaty sandwich? It ain't a fun experience. And some very nice foods are too fragile to travel well in a pocket or even a saddlebag or bar bag. And I'm not carrying all my food for a week tour. Heck, I chew through enough food in a day that carrying a picnic lunch means taking the big saddlebag... all in all, it's more fun to stop and enjoy the local delicacies such as a crab salad sandwich in Wells-next-the-Sea, one of Laddie's Famous Ices in Holbeach, or empanadas at Woodlakes.
> 
> 
> No, you get far better
> ...


Definitely an upside to being a veggie and I already carry a Carridice long flap on the bike at all times so cool box no issue.


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## Rusty Nails (23 Feb 2022)

mjr said:


> Ever been poisoned by a sweaty sandwich? It ain't a fun experience. And some very nice foods are too fragile to travel well in a pocket or even a saddlebag or bar bag. And I'm not carrying all my food for a week tour. Heck, I chew through enough food in a day that carrying a picnic lunch means taking the big saddlebag... all in all, it's more fun to stop and enjoy the local delicacies such as a crab salad sandwich in Wells-next-the-Sea, one of Laddie's Famous Ices in Holbeach, or empanadas at Woodlakes.
> 
> 
> No, you get far better
> ...


Seriously, I must admit there are times when I just treat food as fuel to be consumed asap. Other times I am happy to relax and take my time eating some good food.

Greggs food is to be consumed rather than enjoyed, and can be done quickly if you keep away from them lunch or breakfast time. On a freezing winters day a steak bake is a lifesaver. They were very welcome when other cafes were shut in the restrictions.


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## Johnno260 (23 Feb 2022)

I could quite happily stay in the Netherlands or lake Annecy in France.


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## Blue Hills (23 Feb 2022)

Adam4868 said:


> Better to bonk than eat that sh1te.


Nothing is worse than the bonk if you are a cyclist.
Anything is welcome.
(best to carry stuff of course)


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## Blue Hills (23 Feb 2022)

Oldhippy said:


> Why don't people just take a sandwich and a chocolate bar? It so needn't be an issue! If someone wants to play at being a tour de France tribute act those go faster cycle tops have pockets don't they?


but that's where they keep their suppository pumps mr hippy.

(ok - I confess/plead forgiveness - on a ride I was leading I once refused water to a proud minimalist who had gone out with just a tiddly water bottle so he could humble/flash brag about his other bottle cage which held the minimalist tools)


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## Once a Wheeler (23 Feb 2022)

Bring it on:


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## Rusty Nails (23 Feb 2022)

Once a Wheeler said:


> Bring it on:
> View attachment 632413


Poseurs!

Not a steak bake in sight. They'll have gas after that fizzy stuff; I'd hate to be the last in the line when they get back on the bikes.


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## kayakerles (24 Feb 2022)

Oldhippy said:


> Definitely an upside to being a veggie and I already carry a Carridice long flap on the bike at all times so cool box no issue.


I'm totally with you OH on the sandwich & snack, and I also KNEW that as soon as you said that, there would be someone right behind you to tell you all the mighty reasons that would not do. And they did. Okay, so what… 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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## kayakerles (24 Feb 2022)

I would have also copy/pasted the comment that lead to your response as well, OH, but haven't figured out how to include 2 quotes yet. So it goes.


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## DRM (24 Feb 2022)

Blue Hills said:


> Nothing is worse than the bonk if you are a cyclist.
> Anything is welcome.
> (best to carry stuff of course)


Even begging Costa coffee to serve you a cake and coffee when you feel like the walking dead during the lock down, drive through only, situation.


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## classic33 (3 Mar 2022)

kayakerles said:


> I would have also copy/pasted the comment that lead to your response as well, OH, but haven't figured out how to include 2 quotes yet. So it goes.







Use the "Quote" button, putting them in the order you want.


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