# Buses ignoring Advance Stop Lines



## Manifietso (30 Apr 2012)

Clearly, buses are regularly ignoring the advance stop lines - I saw several doing so in London yesterday (Saturday), and they do it here in Coventry too.

Of course, buses aren't the only ones, but I thought it was worth singling them out as they are easily identifiable (ie by route alone if infrequent service or by bus ID number, which here is just four figures, as well as by reg), and also because of all driver types, bus drivers should be the best trained.

The question is - can we do anything about it?

From a technical perspective, the line at the "start" of the box (from direction of flow) should be no different to the line closest to the traffic lights, namely in that crossing it at red will incur three points and a fine if caught, and that seems to be the big if.

It looks though very little effort is being made to single out drivers who are commiting this offence, as opposed to those who jump the red light completely, even though the camera could be triggered by crossing the first, not the second line.

We all carry some form of recording device, so getting a picture of vehicles who are transgressing these boxes is not difficult. Doing anything with them would be much harder though - especially as a still image doesn't prove that the light is and has been red.

So that is why I ask about buses. There is no one to complain to in the case of cars, and I doubt a local council would do much about one complaint about a taxi in one place, and even then the reg would only give them the owner of the vehicle, not the driver.

A bus company on the other hand would have records of who was driving a particular bus / route at a particular tim. If challenged, is it reasonable to expect them to do anything about it? 

So far, nxcoventry haven't even responded to my email about one I reported last week (had the bus number, no photo).

Should we be asking them to reprimand specific drivers, or is our best hope just to press for general better training of all bus drivers on all aspects of cycle awareness?


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## Norm (30 Apr 2012)

Manifietso said:


> We all carry some form of recording device, so getting a picture of vehicles who are transgressing these boxes is not difficult. Doing anything with them would be much harder though - especially as a still image doesn't prove that the light is and has been red.


Bear in mind also that being in the box isn't illegal, only entering the box when the light is showing red.

A still image of a bus stationary in an ASZ won't count for anything as the driver could say the light was green when he entered the box.


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## classic33 (30 Apr 2012)

What do you do when the driver doesn't know what an ASL is? And because of this stops at the line furthest forward, in the belief that the forward most line is the stop line for him.


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## gaz (30 Apr 2012)

What counts as crossing the line? Bodywork or wheels?
The front of a bus is sometimes several meters forward of the front tyres.
So if it is only against the law for the wheels to cross the solid white line, then they could legitimately block most of an ASL.


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## Manifietso (30 Apr 2012)

Good points.

I was hoping that there could be some sort of mechanism to report ASL violations to the bus companies, and ask them to take action internally. I wasn't suggesting that we could push for prosecutions for the very reasons highlighted above. Simply making eye contact with the driver is enough to make him or her think about why we aren't too pleased. If I am in a position to take a photo again which shows the light clearly red then I'll see what I can do, but that is in a way wishing for such an occurence to happen, when I'd rather they didn't.


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## classic33 (30 Apr 2012)

gaz said:


> *What counts as crossing the line? Bodywork or wheels?*
> *The front of a bus is sometimes several meters forward of the front tyres.*
> So if it is only against the law for the wheels to cross the solid white line, then they could legitimately block most of an ASL.


 
I'd count the front of the vehicle, normally bodywork, as the part that would fall foul of crossing the line.
What sort of bus has bodywork over 21 feet in front of the front wheels. Be a nightmare going round corners.


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## Manifietso (30 Apr 2012)

> What do you do when the driver doesn't know what an ASL is? And because of this stops at the line furthest forward, in the belief that the forward most line is the stop line for him.


 
Ignorance of the law is no defence.

There is plenty of stuff out there about the numerous new road signs and features which have been introduced since drivers passed their test in 19xx.

Also - if there's any action we can take here, it is along the lines of education and training, not enforcement. Bus drivers should know better anyway - they go through far more training to get their PSV licence. You wouldn't accept an aircraft creeping from the taxiway without clearance for take-off, we should demand nothing but the highest standards from our bus drivers.


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## slowmotion (1 May 2012)

I'm pretty relaxed about ASZ "abuse" unless the vehicle tries to turn left afterwards. I tend to plonk myself right in front of them to avoid any conflict. Yes, that's a technical RLJ. I'm sorry.


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## srw (1 May 2012)

We don't "all carry recording devices". And if I stopped and agonised over every vehicle (motorised or otherwise) whose driver/rider decides not to follow the law I'd never get anything else done and would be considerably more stressed than I already am.

I'll focus on the tiny, miniscule, handful who do things that are actively dangerous.


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## Richard Mann (1 May 2012)

Be kind to bus drivers - let them out / wave for them to go first (it's much more pleasant than having them overtake you a few yards on). Then they'll start being kind to others.


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## glasgowcyclist (1 May 2012)

gaz said:


> What counts as crossing the line? Bodywork or wheels?
> The front of a bus is sometimes several meters forward of the front tyres.
> So if it is only against the law for the wheels to cross the solid white line, then they could legitimately block most of an ASL.


 

The prohibition on passing over the stop line applies to any part of the vehicle when the red light is showing; if the front of the vehicle has already crossed that line when the light goes red, it is an offence under s.36 Road Traffic Act 1988 for it to proceed further.

GC


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## glasgowcyclist (1 May 2012)

Manifietso said:


> Clearly, buses are regularly ignoring the advance stop lines - I saw several doing so in London yesterday (Saturday), and they do it here in Coventry too.


 
The problem of motor vehicles abusing ASLs is not an easy one to control as there are instances where a motor vehicle can legitimately occupy one. With the bus company, I would only draw it to their attention if I saw it happen and it wasn't justified. Write a polite letter to them asking them to remind drivers to respect the ASL. If their drivers are otherwise considerate around cyclists then mention that too. 

You'll catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.


GC


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## gaz (1 May 2012)

glasgowcyclist said:


> The prohibition on passing over the stop line applies to any part of the vehicle when the red light is showing; if the front of the vehicle has already crossed that line when the light goes red, it is an offence under s.36 Road Traffic Act 1988 for it to proceed further.
> 
> GC


Where does it state that?


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## glasgowcyclist (1 May 2012)

gaz said:


> Where does it state that?


 
D'you know, I just _knew_ you'd ask me that!

That's from memory but I'll track down the authority for it and come back to you.


GC


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## growingvegetables (1 May 2012)

Richard Mann said:


> Be kind to bus drivers - let them out / wave for them to go first (it's much more pleasant than having them overtake you a few yards on). Then they'll start being kind to others.


+1 ---- with a wee tweak? The majority of bus drivers are already extremely kind to others, many of them superbly so?

I'd feel a bit ...... churlish, going around looking for buses in ASZs, personally. Happy to add it to a long list of other errors a single bus might have made, but no more.


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## subaqua (1 May 2012)

glasgowcyclist said:


> The prohibition on passing over the stop line applies to any part of the vehicle when the red light is showing; if the front of the vehicle has already crossed that line when the light goes red, it is an offence under s.36 Road Traffic Act 1988 for it to proceed further.
> 
> GC


 http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/dft-circular-02-2003/2003-traffic-signs.pdf
lifted from the DfT guidance circular on the TSRGD 2002 My bold


A new regulation 43 clarifies the meaning of "primary signal", "secondary signal" and "stop line" (previously given in the old regulation 33(6)) in relation to light signals, including those at junctions where there are two stop lines. Regulation 43(2) specifies and clarifies the significance of each of the stop lines shown in the advanced cycle stop line layout prescribed in diagram 1001.2 in Schedule 6 so that it is consistent with the advice given in rule 154 of the current Highway Code.
*All vehicles are required to stop at any stop line when a red signal is showing, or, if they can safely stop, an amber one. If an ASL is provided, all vehicles must stop at the *
* second stop line if they have already passed the first when the signal changes to red*. All ASL layouts are required to have an approach cycle lane, whether advisory or mandatory. If a red signal is showing, pedal cyclists may only enter the reservoir ahead of the first stop line via the cycle lane. They may not do so by crossing the stop line. Traffic authorities need to provide layouts that allow pedal cyclists to access the reservoir via the cycle lane without being obstructed by other vehicles. The cycle lane should be long enough for cyclists to bypass the queue of motor vehicles without weaving. An advisory approach lane can be indicated by use of the markings to diagrams 1057 and 1004 or 1004.1, without an upright sign to diagram 967. 

14. Direction 18(2) specifies that the ASL marking to diagram 1001.2 may be placed only
at a signalled junction - it may not be used at level crossings or standalone signal-controlled crossings (for pedestrians, cyclists or equestrians).
I am going to have some fun with this guidance and LBWF and Hackernee council


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## gaz (1 May 2012)

glasgowcyclist said:


> D'you know, I just _knew_ you'd ask me that!
> 
> That's from memory but I'll track down the authority for it and come back to you.
> 
> ...


HAHA.. i've looked and can't see anything which states if it is bodywork or tyres.


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## MontyVeda (1 May 2012)

if it says _vehicle_ then use your noggin and assume it means bodywork and tyres.


The advance stop thingies up here appear to be respected by most drivers, including taxis and buses!


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## benb (1 May 2012)

subaqua said:


> If a red signal is showing, pedal cyclists may only enter the reservoir ahead of the first stop line via the cycle lane. They may not do so by crossing the stop line.


 
Why are they persisting with this lunacy?


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## Norm (1 May 2012)

The rule is not lunacy if you think about it, IMO. The rule is that no vehicles can cross a solid line at red, and that applies to all vehicles at all traffic signals.

Which means that the only way into an ASZ is along the cycle lane.

Now, the positioning of cycle lanes, that I will grant is often lunacy but, IMO, the rule is a good one.


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## classic33 (2 May 2012)

subaqua said:


> http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/dft-circular-02-2003/2003-traffic-signs.pdf
> lifted from the DfT guidance circular on the TSRGD 2002 My bold
> 
> 
> ...


 
Blimey, that would mean nearly every cyclelane on the road near me fails to meet the regulations


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## Manifietso (2 May 2012)

> Be kind to bus drivers - let them out / wave for them to go first (it's much more pleasant than having them overtake you a few yards on). Then they'll start being kind to others.


 
In my experience of using buses, most bus drivers are helpful and as they only have one entry / exit here I thank them on leaving as a matter of course.

Most buses are not a problem for cyclists and most respect ASLs. However, there is clearly a sizeable minority that do not, and my reasons for singling them out, as opposed to other road users are given above, namely that they are more traceable (but route number or bus ID) and that they should be held to higher standards as they are professional drivers. Also, if they are involved in a collision with a bike, due to their substantial size, the bike doesn't have much chance. I note with interest the thread about bus training videos and would be interested to know what nxcoventry do in that respect.

They have at least given me a generic reply to my email, so let's see if they say any more.


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## subaqua (2 May 2012)

classic33 said:


> Blimey, that would mean nearly every cyclelane on the road near me fails to meet the regulations


 
hence the last line of my post. Several "New" ASLs ,in effect just a repaint of badly worn ones, have this problem. 2 solid white lines which means no access to ASL when light is on red.


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## benb (2 May 2012)

Norm said:


> The rule is not lunacy if you think about it, IMO. The rule is that no vehicles can cross a solid line at red, and that applies to all vehicles at all traffic signals.
> 
> Which means that the only way into an ASZ is along the cycle lane.
> 
> Now, the positioning of cycle lanes, that I will grant is often lunacy but, IMO, the rule is a good one.


 
I would prefer it if the rule was that motorised vehicles couldn't cross either line on red, and bicycles couldn't cross the second line on red. That would reinforce the idea that the ASZ is "our" space.

Failing that, ensure there is a feeder lane on each lane of traffic into the ASZ.


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## Richard Mann (2 May 2012)

The rules are about to be changed so that bikes can cross the first stop line on red. To bring the rules in line with reality.

This also avoids the "need" to paint silly little gates (we don't bother in Oxford - they're much neater without, and if the road's that narrow, the cyclist should be in primary anyway)


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## benb (2 May 2012)

Richard Mann said:


> The rules are about to be changed so that bikes can cross the first stop line on red. To bring the rules in line with reality.
> 
> This also avoids the "need" to paint silly little gates (we don't bother in Oxford - they're much neater without, and if the road's that narrow, the cyclist should be in primary anyway)


 
Good. Do you know when, or have a link?


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## Richard Mann (2 May 2012)

benb said:


> Good. Do you know when, or have a link?


 
It was in Norman Baker's signs review (in which they also allowed No Entry except cycles). Dunno when it's happening exactly.


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## subaqua (2 May 2012)

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/signing-the-way/signing-the-way.pdf

unlikely to be fully implemented before 2014, although some may be allowed in stages. Not going to hold my breath on this one. Worboys (1963 ??) took long enough apparently, and there are still lots of Pre Worboys report signs about. and not ones kept for historic reasons


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## benb (2 May 2012)

subaqua said:


> http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/signing-the-way/signing-the-way.pdf
> 
> unlikely to be fully implemented before 2014, although some may be allowed in stages. Not going to hold my breath on this one. Worboys (1963 ??) took long enough apparently, and there are still lots of Pre Worboys report signs about. and not ones kept for historic reasons


 
Maybe in the meantime they could issue guidance to the police not to bother prosecuting for it? In fact, I'd be quite surprised in any case if a cyclist had been pulled over for doing this.


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## Banjo (2 May 2012)

Not just a London problem nor is it only Buses. I would say that in Cardiff the ASZ is occupied by a vehicle of some sort nearly half the tmes I get caught at a red light.

The Advanced Stop Line was a major change in traffic regulations which is fine in theory but with no public awareness campaign to go with it only new drivers and probably cyclists really know what the rules are.

Im sure some drivers do know but just couldnt care as there seems to be no policing of it.

A nationwide publicity/education phase followed by a zero tolerance approach by police would change the situation very quickly. Not holding my breath though.


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## glasgowcyclist (2 May 2012)

gaz said:


> Where does it state that?


 

Hi Gaz,
it's contained in the stated case of Ryan v Smith [1967]1 All E.R. 611.
I can't find a version that's available online but I'm sure if you check with one of your pals in the Met he'll confirm it.

GC


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## subaqua (2 May 2012)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Hi Gaz,
> it's contained in the stated case of Ryan v Smith [1967]1 All E.R. 611.
> I can't find a version that's available online but I'm sure if you check with one of your pals in the Met he'll confirm it.
> 
> GC


 
looking at the date( 1967) that would have been prosecuted under the TSGDR 1964 , which didn't cater for ASLs , the case law could be used for a non ASL red light violation to obtain a prosecution. as you will see from the bit I quoted from the guidance issued by the DfT they say you can continue to the 2nd line in an ASL if the signal has changed to red after you have crossed the 1st.

highly unlikely that any prosecution would be brought.


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## gaz (2 May 2012)

subaqua said:


> looking at the date( 1967) that would have been prosecuted under the TSGDR 1964 , which didn't cater for ASLs , the case law could be used for a non ASL red light violation to obtain a prosecution. as you will see from the bit I quoted from the guidance issued by the DfT they say you can continue to the 2nd line in an ASL if the signal has changed to red after you have crossed the 1st.
> 
> highly unlikely that any prosecution would be brought.


The fact that the TSGDR 1964 doesn't include ASLs is a non point. As the issue is about what part of your vehicle counts as crossing the stop line.


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## subaqua (2 May 2012)

gaz said:


> The fact that the TSGDR 1964 doesn't include ASLs is a non point. As the issue is about what part of your vehicle counts as crossing the stop line.


without being able to read the case its hard to comment , but as the 64 regs are no longer used ,yes, no prosecution would be sought for a contravention of offence set out in an outdated S.I. there may be implications for a non ASL stop line. as is the case the legal arguings all fall to how particular wording is interpreted. the vehicle is the whole thing so, technically if the light changed with front wheels over the lane and the driver continued the vehicle is passing the line at red . one could argue the driver should be anticipating a light change from his/her forward observations on the approach to the lights. perhaps that is what the 1967 case relied upon, interpretation of what is a vehicle.

I was taught that the front wheels shouldn't cross the line when you stop. 

doesn't mean its a non point though


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## gaz (2 May 2012)

subaqua said:


> doesn't mean its a non point though


I meant your mention of ASL is a non point..


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## subaqua (2 May 2012)

i read it several times and read it several ways. nuances of voice tone lost over the tinternet


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## benb (14 May 2012)

User said:


> They're not. The filter lane part was found to be inoperable right back at the beginning. DfT issued clarification effectively allowing cyclists to enter the ASL at any point. That's why most ASLs are now put in without a feeder lane.


 
I think the law is till lagging behind that, but I'd be astonished if plod ever bothered having a word about it.


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## captain nemo1701 (14 May 2012)

Being off the bike recently due to illness, I had to commute via First Bus, or as they are known in Bristol, Worst Bus. However, I'd say about 90% of them stop at the white line. Very few drivers would roll forwards on a red light and after raising the issue with First, they assured me that they require bus no., time, route etc to be able to act on it. They're pretty proactive on these things, especially after a bus driver here in Bristol,_ not a First group driver_, decided to deliberately ram a cyclist with his bus. He's now doing 17 months c/o Her Majesty.


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## Dan B (14 May 2012)

User said:


> They're not. The filter lane part was found to be inoperable right back at the beginning. DfT issued clarification effectively allowing cyclists to enter the ASL at any point.


Interesting. Do you have a citation or a link or something for this?


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## gaz (14 May 2012)

User said:


> They're not. The filter lane part was found to be inoperable right back at the beginning. DfT issued clarification effectively allowing cyclists to enter the ASL at any point. That's why most ASLs are now put in without a feeder lane.


+1 to dan b's request.


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