# Veg growers what should I put here ?



## BADGER.BRAD (27 Mar 2020)

Hello all,

I'm looking at growing some veg ( this Covid 19 has made me think a bit more about the value of food) I have a south facing wall the border is about 20 foot by 2 foot and as you can see there are a few existing plants. I'm concentrating on volume and have grow some veg before to show the kids where it came from. I've grown runner beans in the past up this wall and have had really good success but have had a problem with aphids later in the season so my thoughts were to use the gaps for runner beans with pea netting up the wall but what could I fill the front of the borders with ? I also always end up with a big surplus of Rhubarb and apples what could I do with these ?

Thanks all for your ideas.


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## fossyant (27 Mar 2020)

Tomatoes, cucumber, courgette. As for Aphids, seeing as we will all have lots of time, spraying with soapy water helps - do that daily and the buggers will fall off.


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## Globalti (27 Mar 2020)

How good is that soil? If you start now planting lettuce, radish, rocket, spring onions, cucumber and spinach they will grow and cover fast and you'll have nice stuff for your fresh summer salads. Celery grows fast too but is very thirsty. If you go for salads rather than root veg for Autumn, be prepared to battle the slugs as the little barstewards will be queueing up to nosh everything.


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## Archie_tect (27 Mar 2020)

Are you digging up the whole lawn or just using the border? Get some nice beetroot, and higher value crops that you enjoy like early new potatoes [large white potatoes are cheap enough in shop!]


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## swee'pea99 (27 Mar 2020)

I concentrate on stuff we like that will crop well in not much space, with extra points if it's expensive to buy. Tomatoes and french beans would be top of my list. (Love courgettes, eg, but the plants take up a lot of space for the yield.)


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## twentysix by twentyfive (27 Mar 2020)

If you want mega tons - potatoes. Takes up space mind. Always good as a first crop in new soil. Breaks the soil up nicely for future cultivation. However if it's solid clay wait a bit as it might be too cold and damp yet and the tubers could rot. 

Also as @swee'pea99 says - expensive to buy is a good trick. French beans, beetroot, sweetcorn, broccoli, tomatoes, cucumber (I find keeping Cukes warm outdoors with an open ended cloche helps even if they are supposed to be an outdoor variety). For a spring crop - we're cropping now - Purple sprouting. That latter takes patience and space tho'.

As for Rhubarb - we have already had two crumbles. Apple crumble is lovely too (depends on apple variety). Cook and freeze both or either when in surplus. Make pies and crumbles and sponges and jam and compote and............ I'm starting to crop and freeze (as well as eat) the rhubarb now.


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## swee'pea99 (27 Mar 2020)

swee'pea99 said:


> I concentrate on stuff we like that will crop well in not much space, with extra points if it's expensive to buy. Tomatoes and french beans would be top of my list. (Love courgettes, eg, but the plants take up a lot of space for the yield.)


Oh, one more criterion I should have mentioned: things where the grown version is nicer than shop-bought. Hence (in my case) tomatoes - Gardeners Delight are my preferred seed, producing loads of quite small but intensely flavoursome fruits - way nicer than any you can get at Sainsburys.


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## mudsticks (27 Mar 2020)

The wall will make it thirsty ground because of the rain shadow, so be prepared to water well. 
But if you got good runners previously you must have done that before (or it was a very wet year) 

French beans - dwarf or climbing. 
Sugarsnap peas. 
Cut and come again salad. 
Onions from sets. 
Tomatoes OK, 
Cucs can struggle outdoors. 

If you cut an old leaf everytime you cut a courgette, you can keep them under control.. Then use the leaf for a mulch against weeds / to keep in moisture. 

The wall might harbour a good crop of snails too, so I'd advise starting with bought in plants, or raise them in a cold frame / cloche. 

And going out on mollusc night patrol in the meantime. 

Still a bit early for sowing beans / tom's / courgettes for outside planting. 

I'll only be doing that myself next week and that's in the balmy southwest.. 
And they'll begin their lives in protected conditions. 

Only grow stuff you and your family eat.. 
It's dispiriting to grow a magnificent crop of beetroot, only to have little noses turn up at it.. 

I'm sowing beetroot direct here this avo.. But thats into ideal growing conditions in warm soil. 
It's too easy to do it all too early. 
.


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## BADGER.BRAD (27 Mar 2020)

Thanks for all the input, much appreciated. I have a shotgun for the slugs or a less noisy approach I can spare a little beer for a few traps ( bloody horrible thieving gits) The ground should be fairly good as last autumn I dug in a load of manure and it was just my intention to use the border only ( if I had my way I'd make it a little bigger) I can remember buying some tomato plants from outside a convenience store whilst out in the truck at work the Indian owner told me they will be the best tomato plants you will ever have I've grown them myself to which I thought yea yea what ever ! That year I had that many tomatoes that I couldn't give enough away I had tomatoes with everything and it was only from two plants , unfortunately I never went there again and never new what variety they were) So my next question is suggestions on varieties french beans, out door tomatoes, plus early potatoes ( how early are these ?) Do spring onions grow from seed ? I would also like to grow some salad crops maybe in so sort of container or grow bags am I likely to have any luck with these ? I'm also tempted to get myself one of the cheap plastic green houses would I do any good with one do you think ?


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## MichaelW2 (27 Mar 2020)

I usually grow various beans at high level, dwarf peas at low level and 2-3 courgettes that spread over the lawn.
All are pretty easy to grow and I really dont use any chemicals.


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## Poacher (27 Mar 2020)

Another vote for Gardeners Delight. Already have 4 of these on the go, plus by way of contrast, 4 Pink Brandywine, which are also delicious but about ten times the weight. Two of each will be in the greenhouse, the others will be taking their chance outside.
Definitely go for high value / hard to find varieties.


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## Reynard (27 Mar 2020)

swee'pea99 said:


> I concentrate on stuff we like that will crop well in not much space, with extra points if it's expensive to buy. Tomatoes and french beans would be top of my list. (Love courgettes, eg, but the plants take up a lot of space for the yield.)



It's a while since I've grown veg - I did on a fairly big scale when dad was alive, but have decided to go back to it since I shan't be doing any yellow stickering for a while.

This is exactly my approach, as my former veg patch is now far too shaded by trees. I'm sticking to stuff that can be grown in pots, planters and grow bags or in random spots in the garden, so things like dwarf beans, cherry tomatoes, sweet peppers, courgettes and those small pumpkins.


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## Andy_R (27 Mar 2020)

I don't know if it was posted on here, but this is as good a way as any to deter the sneaky little slimers...


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## Reynard (27 Mar 2020)

@mudsticks - is swiss chard a good candidate for growing in pots?


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## mudsticks (27 Mar 2020)

Yes so long as the pot is of a good depth. 

I wouldn't bother with anything shallower than a foot deep, preferably more, and plenty of water once they get going. 

They grow fast in warm weather, and will try to go to seed if they get dry.

Just keep cutting the leaves - 
- and eating them


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## Reynard (27 Mar 2020)

mudsticks said:


> Yes so long as the pot is of a good depth.
> 
> I wouldn't bother with anything shallower than a foot deep, preferably more, and plenty of water once they get going.
> 
> ...



OK, thanks, I got a few large planters that will do. They've currently got logs in, but I can put those in something else. I like spinach, but think chard will be less faff.


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## mudsticks (27 Mar 2020)

Reynard said:


> OK, thanks, I got a few large planters that will do. They've currently got logs in, but I can put those in something else. I like spinach, but think chard will be less faff.



Yes true spinach, although tasty, goes to seed far more quickly. 

If you don't want the thick stalks of chard, try 'spinach beet' instead. 

It has a similar flavour, and growth habit - 

Cut and come again all year - you might need to liquid feed (seaweed or similar) if it's in a pot


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## Archie_tect (27 Mar 2020)

BADGER.BRAD said:


> I'm also tempted to get myself one of the cheap plastic green houses would I do any good with one do you think ?


M-in-L had one [looked like one of those clear plastic temporary wardrobes with a zip up the front.., worked really well for tomatoes !


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## Reynard (27 Mar 2020)

mudsticks said:


> Yes true spinach, although tasty, goes to seed far more quickly.
> 
> If you don't want the thick stalks of chard, try 'spinach beet' instead.
> 
> ...



Either will do. Just looking for something green and leafy that's reasonably easy to care for.

I have a gallon of tomato food - that should do, I reckon.


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## Archie_tect (27 Mar 2020)

I like spring green cabbage and curly kale which are lovely finely chopped and fried in butter...


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## mudsticks (27 Mar 2020)

Archie_tect said:


> I like spring green cabbage and curly kale which are lovely finely chopped and fried in butter...



Yes, Kale isn't really difficult to grow, 
But it does need to be netted against cabbage white butterflies in summer - otherwise you have nothing left - same with all the other brassicas.


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## Archie_tect (27 Mar 2020)

mudsticks said:


> Yes, Kale isn't really difficult to grow,
> But it does need to be netted against cabbage white butterflies in summer


Clue's in the name!


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## Fab Foodie (27 Mar 2020)

Cannabis....to get yiu through the CV19 crisis...man....


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## ColinJ (27 Mar 2020)

Andy_R said:


> I don't know if it was posted on here, but this is as good a way as any to deter the sneaky little slimers...



I was booked to construct something similar for a pal but we have put it on hold until the restrictions have been eased...


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## PaulSB (28 Mar 2020)

Andy_R said:


> I don't know if it was posted on here, but this is as good a way as any to deter the sneaky little slimers...



Personally I wouldn't bother if growing in raised beds. I turned my whole allotment over to raised bed production four years ago. It's a side effect I hadn't expected but I haven't any slug or snail damage since.

The other solution, which brings many benefits, is to raise crops which can be transplanted in pots before planting out. For example I grow my brassicas in 10-13cm pots until they're around 20cm tall. Plant these out with the first true leaf at soil level to give well established strong plants from the word go.

The larger the plant you can put in your beds the faster they will establish and will be less susceptible to pest attack during this time.


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## PaulSB (28 Mar 2020)

@BADGER.BRAD you've plenty of advice on what to grow so I'll stick to three points

You spoke of "concentrating on volume" I suggest this would be a mistake unless you want to spend time preparing and freezing surpluses. You'll get far more benefit from growing small regular batches of things the family enjoy. This is the important word, enjoy, I grow spinach, chard and pak choi which my wife and I both like and prepare in numerous ways. However you mentioned kids, they may not be so keen.

If you buy a plastic greenhouse be aware they blow over easily! My wife has bought one on two occasions. The frame makes great shelving in my glasshouse otherwise I can't think of a real benefit to buying one.

Should you decide to grow in containers, grow bags etc. try to place these as close to your water source as possible. There's nothing more miserable than an evening trudging from tap to garden with a couple of 10 litre watering cans.

Apple surpluses can be turned in to crumbles for the freezer, peel and slice to freeze blind before packing in bags/containers, make puree and freeze, apple chutney is good

Rhubarb crumble for the freezer, cut sticks in to 1" lengths freeze blind and pack in bags, rhubarb chutney is good but can be acidic.

If you make crumbles for the freezer I find an oat topping works better than the traditional one.


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## mudsticks (28 Mar 2020)

PaulSB said:


> Personally I wouldn't bother if growing in raised beds. I turned my whole allotment over to raised bed production four years ago. It's a side effect I hadn't expected but I haven't any slug or snail damage since.
> 
> The other solution, which brings many benefits, is to raise crops which can be transplanted in pots before planting out. For example I grow my brassicas in 10-13cm pots until they're around 20cm tall. Plant these out with the first true leaf at soil level to give well established strong plants from the word go.
> 
> The larger the plant you can put in your beds the faster they will establish and will be less susceptible to pest attack during this time.



Definitely raise transplants if you have facilities.. 
I probs raise 80% of my cropping that way. 

Or buy them in if you don't have capacity to look after them 

Although it might be harder to source bought in plants this year, I know a few nurseries have packed up for now, but I guess online sales will soar. 

Transplanting, also gives a chance to get the ground weed free. But they don't want to be too big when you transplant, or it will stress them. 

Re the raised beds / mollusc issue I'd sound a slight note of caution though. 

Depends on the soil type, and what is used to edge the beds. 

Slugs and snails will enjoy the crevice btxt soil, and edging material. to hide in in the daytime. 

It's worth going out with a head torch and a pair of scissors, to catch em at it, at night .

And if the soil is very light and sandy then raised beds will dry out quickly. 

I'd agree re plastic greenhouse, they are wind prone, and to extremes of temperature, because of their relatively small size. 

I've seen far more abandoned / repurposed ones, than any being put to their intended use - although if you're there all day to babysit it, it could work out better.


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## Randomnerd (28 Mar 2020)

Cupidon is the best bean I’ve grown. Very prolific.

Probs too scruffy (?) but a few old wooden window frames knocked together makes a good DIY greenhouse for raising seed to transplants. Hung on wall even, like a window with shelves.

Alpine strawberries can be grown in hanging baskets. Delightful hit of fruit flavour in one tiny berry. Not a bowl filler but tasty.

Consider future years and look at cordon fruit tree for the wall


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## MartinQ (28 Mar 2020)

Couple of ones for slightly longer term, leeks and spinach can give you some easy/fresh veg during the winter. However, Id get sowing the stuff mentioned above asap (indoors/under glass).


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## PaulSB (28 Mar 2020)

mudsticks said:


> Definitely raise transplants if you have facilities..
> I probs raise 80% of my cropping that way.
> 
> Or buy them in if you don't have capacity to look after them
> ...



Last Monday I went to my local retail nursery and purchased potting compost, grow bags (I use the peat in containers for tomatoes in my glasshouse), the veg transplants they had available as it's early and tried to buy seed. ALL the veg seed had been wiped out over the weekend so I had to go to B&Q. I don't have the varieties I usually grow but at least have all I need though I did forget spinach beet.

Lockdown the next day so I'm very glad to have had the foresight to do this.

A tip for tomato growers if using containers. Get a two litre plastic bottle, make 3 holes in the cap with something like a bradle, cut off the bottle bottom. Insert a 9/10cm pot in your compost and then place the bottle in cap downwards. Fill with water or feed as necessary. This will allow slow release of the water in to your compost and avoid wasted water draining straight through. It also allows one to regulate the amount of water or feed given to the plants - overwatering or erratic watering is the single biggest issue with growing tomatoes at an amateur level. The cap will block from time to time, remove the bottle and cap, was thoroughly and replace. Tomatoes need a regulated constant amount of water - not drought and flood.

I use two bottles per container as I have two plants in each. The containers are approximately 90cm in length


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## mudsticks (28 Mar 2020)

PaulSB said:


> Last Monday I went to my local retail nursery and purchased potting compost, grow bags (I use the peat in containers for tomatoes in my glasshouse), the veg transplants they had available as it's early and tried to buy seed. ALL the veg seed had been wiped out over the weekend so I had to go to B&Q. I don't have the varieties I usually grow but at least have all I need though I did forget spinach beet.
> 
> Lockdown the next day so I'm very glad to have had the foresight to do this.
> 
> ...



If I was a proper profiteer, I'd be selling off surplus spinach beet seed, at overinflated prices..

Try 'Moles' seeds, online they're pretty good.. And their gold seed packets make you feel special


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## randynewmanscat (17 Jun 2020)

Andy_R said:


> I don't know if it was posted on here, but this is as good a way as any to deter the sneaky little slimers...



Yes this works, I recommend it if you have a gravel board edging around a plot or you use raised beds. Using a stapler to attach the wires takes the drudge out and el cheapo battery boxes and connectors with leads can be had from your favourite China based vendors.
I don't have a link for the wire, don't buy the coated wire the enamel is an insulation of the sort you might have on a motor winding. Bare nickel plated copper is the cheapest in whatever cross section is cheap and durable enough.
The battery will last all year and some of the next if its brought indoors in autumn, very cheap to run.
Is mollusc control by electric fence OTT? No, its cheaper and less harmful than slug pellets and you can feel smug in the knowledge that you don't have to remind yourself to patrol the salad bed of an evening.


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## Notafettler (21 Jul 2020)

I suspect it's to late to start growing Tom's. I always start with seed. Going for stuff you won't get in the supermarkets. 
Super maramande
Yellow stuffer 
Shirley (given during lockdown by garden centre)
Tumbling Tom's about 20 plants. I will use the latter for dehydrating and then put them in various oils with herbs garlic and a few with hot peppers. I then put the jars in the cupboard for least one year before giving them out as pressies. 

I think sweet peppers have a chance against a south facing wall. Otherwise a greenhouse. 

Lettuce is actually quite expensive in the supermarkets another thing you should take into account when growing. 
Celtuce the leaves for salad, stalk for frying.
Some curly very fragile ones which dont die out in the winter. Cant remember the name of hand
Little gem one seed at least 3 heads of lettuce. Cut the first head off , leave an inch or two of stalk you will get at least 2 more heads normally 3. Quicker than starting another seed. They will keep on "coppicing" but the heads are much smaller.
In theory you should grow nothing that is cheap in the supermarkets. So carrots are out. Its okay to grow stuff which is significantly better flavour if very fresh. So carrots are back in. Try something different though, like Parisian market carrots. Round suitable for stony ground picked when small multiple crops. 
Onions are a pain if grown from seed, like watching cricket in slow motion. If grown from sets you will end up with a lots. £1.50 from Wilkos for 184. Yes I did count them. I have decided to go for shallots as you just keep a few back for next years crop. Plus you plant in the autumn on empty ground and you start harvesting now giving you extra space.
Interplanting if short on space or even if not. The one plant shouldn't shade the other. Tomatoes indeterminate (not Bush which are determinates) with lettuce inbetweener. Helps keeps the weeds down. Slugs can be reduced with beer traps. The beer supplied by pub drip trays. Note only 30% fall in and drown although that doesn't mean you won't get them the next night or the night after that. _*Metaldehyde based slug pellets will be banned from next year only farmers can get them at the moment as garden centres are not selling them anymore. They are extremely effective. Supposedly at killing other wild life as well. *_


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## Notafettler (21 Jul 2020)

PS Ebay is very good for seeds twice the amount for half the price. Premier seeds is who I normally use as do a lot of growers on allotment gardenering forum. They don't come in pictorial packaging just the name of the seeds no instructions.


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## PaulSB (24 Jul 2020)

Just a quick comment. Up thread I mentioned I had to buy most of this year's seed from B&Q as the retail nursery I use had been wiped out the weekend before lockdown. I mainly bought from their Verve range most of which is unamed varieties.

Germination and plant growth has been good but what I'll call "eatability" is poor. Lacking in flavour and tough in some instances. I won't be back there in 2021 and will be buying seed much earlier than I have previously.

Having been a B&Q plant supplier I know how stringent the quality criteria are. I'm very surprised to find the end result of the Verve seed range is unacceptable. My guess is the seed supplier has based everything around germ rate, seed count etc. to achieve a targeted price and the number one characteristic, produce flavour and overall quality, has been ignored.


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## mudsticks (24 Jul 2020)

PaulSB said:


> Just a quick comment. Up thread I mentioned I had to buy most of this year's seed from B&Q as the retail nursery I use had been wiped out the weekend before lockdown. I mainly bought from their Verve range most of which is unamed varieties.
> 
> Germination and plant growth has been good but what I'll call "eatability" is poor. Lacking in flavour and tough in some instances. I won't be back there in 2021 and will be buying seed much earlier than I have previously.
> 
> Having been a B&Q plant supplier I know how stringent the quality criteria are. I'm very surprised to find the end result of the Verve seed range is unacceptable. My guess is the seed supplier has based everything around germ rate, seed count etc. to achieve a targeted price and the number one characteristic, produce flavour and overall quality, has been ignored.



In many of the more commercial veg seed catalogues I use, a variety will be promoted as 'Good for plant sales'
ie for growing eye catching POS veg plants to sell on to domestic buyers. 

I'm guessing similar is used for generic seed sales, the less discerning buyer won't know the difference. 

Many of the varieties available to commercial growers prioritise yield, and packhorse longevity, flavour and nutrition come a long way down the list. 

My customers who get their veg harvested and supplied on the same day, are often initially blown away by the complex flavours and moreishness of the veg they get. 

Then they get addicted, and can't leave the Valley, for more than a fortnight at a time. 

If I have to resort to buying supermarket veg, or even when eating 'restaurant' veg I can see why so many people don't like vegetables.. They often taste of nothing, or perhaps faintly of diesel. 

Try the Real Seed Company, or Vital Veg, or join the Seed Cooperative, if you want more interesting, and flavourful varieties for home growing. 

You'll also be supporting seed sovereignty, and smaller producers in this country


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## Notafettler (24 Jul 2020)

Better still use premier seeds on there Ebay site or there non Ebay site. Fantastic choice, for instance 80 different tomato plant seeds. And quite often twice the amount for half price. Particularly useful if your allotment grower. IE share seeds. There is more than one seller on Ebay that sells dirt cheap VERY reliable seeds. A lot of there seeds are 99p free postage. I wanted some little gems but they only had 10grams at £1.09 plus 0.65 postage expensive for them....if you ignore the fact that you are getting 8000 plus seeds and you get at least 3 plants of each seed!! Struggled to give enough away.
Example https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LETTUCE-...&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&redirect=mobile
So don't over pay by buying from the mainstream Thompson etc.
As a cheap non internet alternative Wilkos is always reasonable priced. End of season some of there shops sells seeds at a penny a packet. 10p in my small Wilkos. Robbers!


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## PaulSB (25 Jul 2020)

@mudsticks I spent my entire career in commercial ornamental horticulture so I'm very familiar with your comments though in relation to garden plants. "Good for plant sales" was frequently to describe many bedding plants - my final 22 years was in this sector. We all knew what it meant but rarely discussed it!!!

At one time I worked with a business producing supermarket tomatoes and bedding. Every Friday we grabbed a kilo of toms to take home before they hit the chillers - friends were always astonished and this was just with varieties bred for appearance and productivity let alone flavour!

I'll investigate your seed supplier suggestions for next year. My allotment is producing well but I'm disappointed by the lack of flavour this year - something I'm not used to!!


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## mudsticks (25 Jul 2020)

PaulSB said:


> @mudsticks I spent my entire career in commercial ornamental horticulture so I'm very familiar with your comments though in relation to garden plants. "Good for plant sales" was frequently to describe many bedding plants - my final 22 years was in this sector. We all knew what it meant but rarely discussed it!!!
> 
> At one time I worked with a business producing supermarket tomatoes and bedding. Every Friday we grabbed a kilo of toms to take home before they hit the chillers - friends were always astonished and this was just with varieties bred for appearance and productivity let alone flavour!
> 
> I'll investigate your seed supplier suggestions for next year. My allotment is producing well but I'm disappointed by the lack of flavour this year - something I'm not used to!!


I forgot to mention "Seeds of Italy" their stuff is very good, the Italians won't put up with 'insipid' flavours and they do a very generous packet size, aimed at the domestic market. 
But plenty enough even for commercial scale if you're growing several different varieties. 

A long established family business, that buys direct from seed producers there. 

Plus lots of wierd and wonderful things not available over here, but which mostly do fine in our climate, with a bit of protection. 

In fact I believe the aubergine in my avatar was from one of their seeds. 

This years are just starting to crop.. I can't resist the ones with the 'noses'  🍆


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## Notafettler (25 Jul 2020)

mudsticks said:


> .. They often taste of nothing, or perhaps faintly of diesel.


Seriously are you accusing them of spraying with diesel? If yes how do you know what diesel taste like?


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## mudsticks (25 Jul 2020)

Notafettler said:


> Seriously are you accusing them of spraying with diesel? If yes how do you know what diesel taste like?



No I'm not accusing them of spraying with diesel, conventionally grown crops are often sprayed with many other things though, pesticides, fungicides, fertilisers and pre emergant herbicides, though. 

The taste can be reminiscent of something like diesel though . 

I know what diesel tastes like from having done (more than) my fair share of fuel tank syphoning, and just general splashback when refuelling farm machinery.


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## PaulSB (25 Jul 2020)

@mudsticks I'd be interested in your thoughts on this. Last year my garlic crop, all late autumn planted, was a disappointment with small bulbs mainly due I feel to winter 2018/19 being mild.

This year I decided to split the crop between autumn and spring varieties. You can guess what's happened!! I have a large crop, far more than we can eat. Probably 200 bulbs most of which are 3 times the size of supermarket product. It's been a good trial as the autumn crop has made significantly heavier bulbs.

Some thoughts while I was cleaning up for storage:

Can I chill autumn bulbs prior to planting to simulate a cold winter?
How viable is it to grow next year's crop from this year's bulbs? The variety is Provence Wight and quality every bit as good as that which I buy from Marshalls. I usually buy new bulbs each year.
Finally just out of interest. Are flies especially attracted to garlic? I've had my autumn crop drying under glass for three weeks and there are always flies. I took the bulbs out and 30 minutes later no flies. A couple of hours later I put the spring bulbs I lifted today in the glasshouse and flies reappeared within minutes. Weird.


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## mudsticks (25 Jul 2020)

PaulSB said:


> @mudsticks I'd be interested in your thoughts on this. Last year my garlic crop, all late autumn planted, was a disappointment with small bulbs mainly due I feel to winter 2018/19 being mild.
> 
> This year I decided to split the crop between autumn and spring varieties. You can guess what's happened!! I have a large crop, far more than we can eat. Probably 200 bulbs most of which are 3 times the size of supermarket product. It's been a good trial as the autumn crop has made significantly heavier bulbs.
> 
> ...



Garlic is something I have variable success with here, usually because of keeping it weed free over the long growing period..
As you know it doesn't cast much shade, to out compete the weds

And if you mulch it thickly, with straw or whatever, the there's a chance the cold won't penetrate the soil to cause the division into cloves.

I'm not an expert in artificially pre conditioning with cold, but now you've piqued my interest I might see what my growers group say.

I'd have thought reusing cloves for next years seed, if it seems disease free would be fine.

Although it's viruses that are the problem, which perhaps wouldn't show up in storage - rots would become apparent fairly soon.

Of course the hard bit will be saving those juiciest cloves for next years seed, when you just want to gobble them up.

Nowadays I usually sell most of the overwintered garlic I grow 'wet' as its more a novelty..
The return on storage or dried garlic, just isn't there.

There's no way it can compete price wise with the Chinese imported stuff, I only grow enough storage stuff for domestic use.

Regarding the flies, yes I've had that too.

Your initial suspicion is that something is rotting, or gone bad in there.

Turns out flies just like garlic -

Have you tried elephant garlic?

Looks like ordinary stuff only four times as huge.
Not so pungent, but really nice roasted as whole heads


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## Notafettler (26 Jul 2020)

All mine are from the previous years crop. Can't see any point in continually buying new seed and the same with shallots. Nice to be self sufficient in something. I don't generally save to eat, I just mince and store in oil. I don't use it in cooking I just like sniffing it.


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## PaulSB (27 Jul 2020)

@mudsticks I've done a bit of reading around and it seems chilling garlic bulbs prior to planting is widespread in warm climates - hardly surprising when one thinks about it. In the UK we need two months of 0-10C to break vernalization. The period of artificial chilling seems to be 30-60 days. I did learn something else - it seems the longer one can keep the soil cool the larger the bulb and cloves will be.

Your comment re mulching made me realise the stupid error I made in 2018. I got a source of spent hops in autumn 2018. Winter 2018/19 I mulched the garlic bed after planting - nicely insulating the cloves! Never gave it a thought. This year I didn't mulch till spring when of course growth had started.

Never tried elephant garlic though have thought of it from time to time. I'm only growing half a bed of garlic in 2021 so may pop some in to the extra space available.


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## Notafettler (27 Jul 2020)

[QUOTE="PaulSB, post: 6082882, ]In the UK we need two months of 0-10C to break vernalization. The period of artificial chilling seems to be 30-60 days. I
[/QUOTE]
Fridge?


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## Notafettler (27 Jul 2020)

@mudsticks 
Elephant garlic cooked wet or can you dry it?


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## mudsticks (27 Jul 2020)

Notafettler said:


> @mudsticks
> Elephant garlic cooked wet or can you dry it?



I've never tried drying it - they're about the size of a medium onion - so i imagine its possible.

I find they're too tasty to store for long - i just want to eat them up.

I've seen them stored in olive oil and eaten whole that way - and then of course you're left with garlicky olive oil for all manner of deliciousness


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## mudsticks (27 Jul 2020)

PaulSB said:


> @mudsticks I've done a bit of reading around and it seems chilling garlic bulbs prior to planting is widespread in warm climates - hardly surprising when one thinks about it. In the UK we need two months of 0-10C to break vernalization. The period of artificial chilling seems to be 30-60 days. I did learn something else - it seems the longer one can keep the soil cool the larger the bulb and cloves will be.
> 
> Your comment re mulching made me realise the stupid error I made in 2018. I got a source of spent hops in autumn 2018. Winter 2018/19 I mulched the garlic bed after planting - nicely insulating the cloves! Never gave it a thought. This year I didn't mulch till spring when of course growth had started.
> 
> Never tried elephant garlic though have thought of it from time to time. I'm only growing half a bed of garlic in 2021 so may pop some in to the extra space available.



So we might infer that mulching late winter, after a cold spell would keep in that cold, help bulk up the cloves , and suppress the spring flush of weeds germinating at the same time ..

I'm suspecting the real pros have worked all this out, years back ..


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## Mr Celine (27 Jul 2020)

Notafettler said:


> Onions are a pain if grown from seed, like watching cricket in slow motion. If grown from sets you will end up with a lots. £1.50 from Wilkos for 184. Yes I did count them.



Onion sets? IME it would be a lot less effort and more productive not to plant them but just cook them instead. 
I tried for a few years but every time a third of them would be stolen by crows, a third of them would bolt and the remainder would eventually reach the same size that they had been when first planted. 

Grown from seed I usually get enough medium size onions to keep me going until Christmas. A mini polytunnel is essential and a green house also helps. 
This advice is based on a latitude of 55.6 degrees north and altitude of 130m above sea level on a windy site. Other locations are available.


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## PaulSB (28 Jul 2020)

Mr Celine said:


> Onion sets? IME it would be a lot less effort and more productive not to plant them but just cook them instead.
> I tried for a few years but every time a third of them would be stolen by crows, a third of them would bolt and the remainder would eventually reach the same size that they had been when first planted.
> 
> Grown from seed I usually get enough medium size onions to keep me going until Christmas. A mini polytunnel is essential and a green house also helps.
> This advice is based on a latitude of 55.6 degrees north and altitude of 130m above sea level on a windy site. Other locations are available.


I agree growing from seed or purchased plants is easy and is certainly my preferred method.

I'm wondering why a mini polytunnel is essential? If it's to protect against birds I simply shove a few bamboo canes in the ground, stretch netting across this and raise it up as the plants get established.


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## Mr Celine (28 Jul 2020)

PaulSB said:


> I'm wondering why a mini polytunnel is essential?



My advice was site and weather specific so may not apply to balmy southern places like Chorley, which from a brief glimpse at the map is lower, much closer to the sea and two degrees further south than I am.

The polytunnel is planted out at the beginning of April and the tunnel is removed in June. 
I planted out another row of onions in the open at the beginning of May. Despite being bigger at the planting out stage they are currently about half the size of the polytunnel ones and won't catch up.


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## Notafettler (28 Jul 2020)

Mr Celine said:


> Onion sets? IME it would be a lot less effort and more productive not to plant them but just cook them instead.
> I tried for a few years but every time a third of them would be stolen by crows, a third of them would bolt and the remainder would eventually reach the same size that they had been when first planted.
> 
> Grown from seed I usually get enough medium size onions to keep me going until Christmas. A mini polytunnel is essential and a green house also helps.
> This advice is based on a latitude of 55.6 degrees north and altitude of 130m above sea level on a windy site. Other locations are available.


I don't think I lost a single one (sets). You are supposed to plant in the autumn let them grow through the winter. You are not supposed to let them bolt. Pick them before they do.
Pick early summer or about now.
Will be picking all my shallots today.
Will have to store them in shredded paper as nobody is harvesting there wheat yet. Farmers are so unreliable!. When they do there is always some left in the field for gleaning.
I have just planted some seed onions in my greenhouse (top of the terraces)
But I will have to take out as to hot. I will plant in the spare space around asparagus.








This site meets the definition of windy.
Lincolnshire by the way top part.


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## PaulSB (28 Jul 2020)

Mr Celine said:


> My advice was site and weather specific so may not apply to balmy southern places like Chorley, which from a brief glimpse at the map is lower, much closer to the sea and two degrees further south than I am.
> 
> The polytunnel is planted out at the beginning of April and the tunnel is removed in June.
> I planted out another row of onions in the open at the beginning of May. Despite being bigger at the planting out stage they are currently about half the size of the polytunnel ones and won't catch up.


Just interested as it was new to me. I'm afraid latitude 55.6 degrees north means little to me though a quick Google says Newcastle, South Shields are on that latitude.


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## Mr Celine (28 Jul 2020)

PaulSB said:


> Just interested as it was new to me. I'm afraid latitude 55.6 degrees north means little to me though a quick Google says Newcastle, South Shields are on that latitude.


Newcastle is nearer 55.0.
55.6 passes through Carradale (Kintyre), Brodick (Isle of Arran), Kilmarnock, Biggar, Galashiels, Kelso and Bamburgh (Northumberland).


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## Notafettler (28 Jul 2020)

mudsticks said:


> So we might infer that mulching late winter, after a cold spell would keep in that cold, help bulk up the cloves , and suppress the spring flush of weeds germinating at the same time ..
> 
> I'm suspecting the real pros have worked all this out, years back ..


All I have found from mulching is it's a great place for slugs and snails to hide. Although onions/garlic aren't on the top of there menu.
PS isn't that suggestion similar to using a fleece?


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## PaulSB (28 Jul 2020)

Mr Celine said:


> Newcastle is nearer 55.0.
> 55.6 passes through Carradale (Kintyre), Brodick (Isle of Arran), Kilmarnock, Biggar, Galashiels, Kelso and Bamburgh (Northumberland).


Ah got you now. I know Brodick, Biggar, Kelso and Gala - my wife hales from there. Think I'd want a polytunnel for everything! 😀


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## Mr Celine (28 Jul 2020)

PaulSB said:


> Ah got you now. I know Brodick, Biggar, Kelso and Gala - my wife hales from there. Think I'd want a polytunnel for everything! 😀


Oove bid in Galae for 25 year. (You may need your wife to translate that). A full size polytunnel would have blown away today.


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## PaulSB (28 Jul 2020)

Notafettler said:


> All I have found from mulching is it's a great place for slugs and snails to hide. Although onions/garlic aren't on the top of there menu.
> PS isn't that suggestion similar to using a fleece?


This may depend on what you mulch with. I collect spent hops from a local micro brewery every week. I mulch my beds with these throughout the growing season and again in winter with the fabulous compost the hops make. The combination of raised beds and hop mulch means I rarely see a slug or snail in my crops.

If you can obtain hops I recommend them, especially for the compost heap. My heaps are usually around 55-60C and anything I chuck in breaks down in 7-10 days.


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## PaulSB (13 Sep 2020)

Peppers and earwigs!! Three years ago I had a problem with earwigs making a small hole in the top of my bell peppers, usually near the calyx, burrowing in and living inside the pepper. This makes them inedible and quickly causes rot. Last year no problems but the little buggers are back this year.

Too late to do much this season but have others encountered this? What was your solution?

I don't want to use chemicals as apart from tomato feed my allotment is 100% organic. I'm thinking if traps or perhaps smearing vaseline on the lower stem


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## Notafettler (13 Sep 2020)

Not sure what chemical you would use anyway? Picking them off before they get in. 
Checking regularly and using the peppers before they start to rot. 
Joining a site which is more likely to know the answer. Obvious choice https://www.allotment-garden.org/ they don't expect you contribute before answering questions. This is actual part of the site to go to https://chat.allotment-garden.org/index.php?board=1.0


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## PaulSB (14 Sep 2020)

Notafettler said:


> Not sure what chemical you would use anyway? Picking them off before they get in.
> Checking regularly and using the peppers before they start to rot.
> Joining a site which is more likely to know the answer. Obvious choice https://www.allotment-garden.org/ they don't expect you contribute before answering questions. This is actual part of the site to go to https://chat.allotment-garden.org/index.php?board=1.0


Thank you. I do keep an eye open for the entry hole and bin those with one. Eating them before they rot isn't an option. Cutting one open will usually reveal an earwig living inside and lots of earwig pooh!!!! 

I'm not generally squeamish but this makes me gag. Why I'm unsure I just find it really horrible though I'm well aware disposing of the live earwig and a good wash of the fruit is all that's needed.


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## Notafettler (10 Oct 2020)

mudsticks said:


> I've never tried drying it - they're about the size of a medium onion - so i imagine its possible.
> 
> I find they're too tasty to store for long - i just want to eat them up.
> 
> I've seen them stored in olive oil and eaten whole that way - and then of course you're left with garlicky olive oil for all manner of deliciousness


Bought some from the garlic farm isle of Wight. A bit wet at the moment when the latest you would plant it. Lincolnshire.


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## mudsticks (10 Oct 2020)

Notafettler said:


> Bought some from the garlic farm isle of Wight. A bit wet at the moment when the latest you would plant it. Lincolnshire.



i would get it in the ground asap - its not really for drying like 'true' garlic - its more for eating fresh .


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## MartinQ (10 Oct 2020)

Notafettler said:


> Bought some from the garlic farm isle of Wight. A bit wet at the moment when the latest you would plant it. Lincolnshire.


I sometimes plant it in an old pots/trough overwinter, then pot it on in the border in spring.


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## mudsticks (10 Oct 2020)

MartinQ said:


> I sometimes plant it in an old pots/trough overwinter, then pot it on in the border in spring.



That could be a useful technique on a smaller scale, esp if your soil gets very wet over winter, or smothered with weeds in early spring. 

We were specifically referencing elephant garlic here, rather than the 'ordinary' sort. 

But I don't see why your method wouldn't work for either, so long as the transplanting is done without root disturbance. 

Although upthread we did make the point that garlic in general needs some overwintering frosting if it is to divide into cloves. 

So pots / troughs outside, rather than babied in a heated greenhouse would be required.


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## MartinQ (10 Oct 2020)

mudsticks said:


> That could be a useful technique on a smaller scale, esp if your soil gets very wet over winter, or smothered with weeds in early spring.
> 
> We were specifically referencing elephant garlic here, rather than the 'ordinary' sort.
> 
> ...



Small scale, wet and weedy :-) and yes they're left outside. They do put on a fair amount of root growth and I generally put then in the ground earlier (start of aprilish).


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