# E-scooters to be allowed on public roads



## captain nemo1701 (16 May 2019)

I passed one this morning on the B2B Railway Path and boy, those things can move!. I was wondering if they are legal on cyclepaths since technically, they could be classed as motorised vehicles. One assumes that if this is the case, they'd need a licence plate & lights and really shouldn't be on cyclepaths. I read online that they're not really road legal either.

Also, what about those single wheel things?. Like 'hoverboards' (I hate that term, wheels still touch the floor. I don't ride a 'hoverbike'!!), they can be pretty fast too.

What are everyone's thoughts on this?. Curious.


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## Johnno260 (16 May 2019)

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/meet-batman-tunbridge-wells-mystery-6198089

You mean this single wheel ones? used by super heroes?


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## DCLane (16 May 2019)

Electric scooters are illegal, as are de-restricted electric bikes.

Hoverboards are considered more as a toy, but are also illegal.


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## mustang1 (16 May 2019)

I do not believe that electric scooters are illegal as long as they are limited to certain speed, probably similar to bikes.


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## Milkfloat (16 May 2019)

mustang1 said:


> I do not believe that electric scooters are illegal as long as they are limited to certain speed, probably similar to bikes.



I am yet to see one with pedals.


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## fossyant (16 May 2019)

mustang1 said:


> I do not believe that electric scooters are illegal as long as they are limited to certain speed, probably similar to bikes.



Very few are actually that slow. My son clocked one doing over 20mph on our camp site - he was going quicker on his mum's new Full suspension MTB !

As a result of some near misses, all electric scooters and hover boards have been banned on site. There are some upset parents, but quite a few kids have nearly been run over shooting out in front of cars (that said, bikes can go as quick).


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## glasgowcyclist (16 May 2019)

mustang1 said:


> I do not believe that electric scooters are illegal as long as they are limited to certain speed, probably similar to bikes.



No, they're the same category as Segways and do not have approval for use in public. Users should be prepared for the various RTA charges they'll face when caught.


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## icowden (16 May 2019)

Yup. The only legal electric scooters are this type (basically an electric moped):

https://www.scooter.co.uk/go-electric-scooter

however the Government are meant to be "looking at" updating the Highways law around PLEVs 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/mar/09/electric-scooters-uk-road-ban-set-to-end

At present though you can receive a fine and points on your driving license (or future license if you don't have one).


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## fossyant (16 May 2019)

Bet this is fun..

https://www.mafscooters.com/maf-evolution-x2000s-sport-electric-scooter-60v-2000w-lithium-1721-p.asp

PS that's what a lot of the kids have (or similar)


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## icowden (16 May 2019)

Fun if you have a large country estate to drive it on.


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## glasgowcyclist (16 May 2019)

icowden said:


> Yup. The only legal electric scooters are this type (basically an electric moped):



And their riders must comply with the usual requirements for L1e vehicles in terms of registration, insurance, VED, helmet wearing, and rider licensing etc.


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## tom73 (16 May 2019)

Private land only not allowed on road , pavement or cycle lines. 
Normal push sort though can be used but only on the highway.


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## fossyant (16 May 2019)

Wowsers, 40 mph !

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07GRRW...RL7A&creativeASIN=B07GR2WQZ6&tag=insider0b-21


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## captain nemo1701 (16 May 2019)

glasgowcyclist said:


> And their riders must comply with the usual requirements for L1e vehicles in terms of registration, insurance, VED, helmet wearing, and rider licensing etc.


 Yeah, right. I'm sure they do...LOL!.


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## glasgowcyclist (16 May 2019)

captain nemo1701 said:


> Yeah, right. I'm sure they do...LOL!.



There's a fast-food delivery scooter I've seen which falls into this category but the rider seems to think a bicycle helmet will do. The vehicle doesn't display the required registration plate and most likely he has no licence or insurance either so, assuming your LOL is referring to the likelihood of compliance, I agree with you.

The serious problems will arise when this kind of rider is involved in a collision with someone else.


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## swee'pea99 (16 Mar 2020)

Good God - common sense from the government. What is the world coming to?

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...et-green-light-to-go-on-britains-public-roads


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## Drago (16 Mar 2020)

The thread title is a bit premature. At the moment it's only a proposal out for consultation.


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## glasgowcyclist (16 Mar 2020)

swee'pea99 said:


> Good God - common sense from the government. What is the world coming to?
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...et-green-light-to-go-on-britains-public-roads



Hooray!


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## numbnuts (16 Mar 2020)

I want one  second childhood


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## Rusty Nails (16 Mar 2020)

Perhaps if it gets the go ahead it will take some of the focus off cyclists as the scourge of the roads, because of course scooter riders will: obey traffic lights, not ride on pavements, not ride two abreast, not hog the lane, wear helmets, use lights, wear hi-viz clothing, use a warning bell, pay "road tax", not terrorise pedestrians on shared paths or pedestrian crossings, under/overtake queued traffic.


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## Slioch (16 Mar 2020)

numbnuts said:


> I want one  second childhood



+1


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## ColinJ (16 Mar 2020)

They should be much safer than cyclists! E-scooter riders will obviously be able to brake harder than us and simply roll over potholes that would have us on the deck. Or maybe _not_...


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## classic33 (16 Mar 2020)

ColinJ said:


> They should be much safer than cyclists! E-scooter riders will obviously be able to brake harder than us and simply roll over potholes that would have us on the deck. Or maybe _not_...


Casualty figures are twice that of cycling. 

Given the nature of some of the cycle lanes round these parts, on the pavements, how many users will chose to stay on the pavement rather than the roads.

I'd love to know if they'd require VED and plates, insurance, to be used on the roads.


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## captain nemo1701 (17 Mar 2020)

I don't want to end up in a situation like India where some segregated cycle paths are fully used by mopeds & motorbikes. IMHO, allowing motorised traffic onto spaces designated for non-motorised isn't a good idea. I note that Amsterdam banned 'bromfiets' from the city cycle lanes about 2 years ago. Why are we considering allowing these things onto roads because they'll end up on pavements & cyclepaths and already are raced on them if you look at the videos on Youtube. There's a lot of aggressive propaganda on these things at the moment.

When I learnt to drive in 1981, I was firmly told not to park on bends, double yellow lines or pavements all of which are now regularly committed by motorists. I think this is because our culture is convenience-obsessed. There may be a minority of folk who can't cycle due to physical disability or medical condition but to me, a lot simply _can't be bothered_ to pedal. They want ease & convenience but none of the hard work. So if people ditch cars due to expense/congestion yet still crave convenience, they'll fill up cycle lanes/paths with e-scooters. And what about e-boards & those e-wheels?. They are fully prepared to break the law at the moment since personal convenience is more important to them and it comes ahead of anything else.


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## sheddy (17 Mar 2020)

Is this a public consultation ?


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## numbnuts (17 Mar 2020)

sheddy said:


> Is this a public consultation ?


will initially only be allowed in four “future transport zones”: Portsmouth and Southampton; the West of England Combined Authority (WECA); Derby and Nottingham; and the West Midlands. 
Southampton just down the road from me


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## CanucksTraveller (17 Mar 2020)

There's not a lot I can add really that @captain nemo1701 hasn't already said. Post of that day there I think. 

If you go to any of the cities where these are common, they can be a complete and utter menace because they're a boon to the terminally idle. Sadly the terminally idle do also tend to be irresponsible and selfish people. Hire versions are casually tossed (sometimes in little tangled heaps of 3) in the middle of city centre pavements, riders ride them wherever they damn well please at silly speeds (including pedestrianised streets, parks, roads, cycleways, veering between any or all of them as it suits), with associated increases in injuries and hospital admissions. Many city mayors are trying to ban them now. 

I think the theory of the machine itself is excellent, and it would be the ideal transport for some (including my Mrs who works one town over, in an isolated part of it). I do think most cyclists would ride them responsibly. The trouble is that there are a lot of irresponsible people out there. Paris, Brussels, Atlanta, and dozens of other cities have already found that out.


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## swee'pea99 (17 Mar 2020)

CanucksTraveller said:


> If you go to any of the cities where these are common, they can be a complete and utter menace because they're a boon to the terminally idle.


Oh, sorry - you mean e-scooters. I thought you were talking about cars. 

Seriously though, of course there'll be issues. And people will get hurt. And some will be killed. But replacing one-person transport with a 5kg payload over one-person transport with a tonne & a half payload has to be a no-brainer doesn't it? We can fine-tune the rules and regs as we go along. And realistically it'll only ever be a marginal help (most people will still prefer their cars). But every little helps, no?


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## twentysix by twentyfive (17 Mar 2020)

Licence them. Enforce the already in place laws. Otherwise it's the wild west. Oh wait...........


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## Phaeton (17 Mar 2020)

captain nemo1701 said:


> When I learnt to drive in 1981, I was firmly told not to park on bends, double yellow lines or pavements all of which are now regularly committed by motorists. I think this is because our culture is *convenience-obsessed*.


I'm not convinced that is the reason, I think it's more to do with the chances of being caught & more importantly fined/penalised are virtually nil. Last week the local council had a parking inspector/enforcement officer (or whatever the latest re-branding now calls them) was outside the local school, they ticketed cars parked on the zig-zag of the crossing, in the bus stop, at least 1 car parked on the junction, but as far as I know not on a couple parked half/half on the footpath. The next day no cars were parked in these areas, TBH not been back since so it may well be as bad again.


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## CanucksTraveller (17 Mar 2020)

swee'pea99 said:


> But replacing one-person transport with a 5kg payload over one-person transport with a tonne & a half payload has to be a no-brainer doesn't it? We can fine-tune the rules and regs as we go along. And realistically it'll only ever be a marginal help (most people will still prefer their cars). But every little helps, no?



Yes, and I think your theory is both admirable and completely sound as a starting premise. I'd love to see thousands of these replace thousands of cars, _in theory_. I'm just not sure (looking at the evidence in Paris) you can then trust legislators and authorities to set the right rules and environment, even less enforce it. 

Look at policing and enforcement in the UK: We've become so car centric that the police are now largely car centric too. They mostly set out on their shifts in their cars, and they react to incidents in their cars, and on the rare occasions they're not doing that, they might look for car related offences, albeit only sexy ones. They're not really effectively addressing things like phone / internet use at the wheel. They're not out walking or riding the street, policing poor scooter or cycle use and offences, they're not even being proactive on burglaries. If it's not something sexy happening in a car at high speed, they're pretty blind to it. 

Give people a chance to be low-level lawless with no chance of penalty and many of them they will be. Unfortunately I think in modern society it's not as simple as changing / tweaking the laws, you have to be able to enforce them.


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## MarkF (17 Mar 2020)

It's good news for me, I've always thought cheap electric bikes/scooters wheelers would change commuting, never ever thought electric cars would. Best way to get cars off the road IMO.


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## fossyant (17 Mar 2020)

Well local councils better start filling holes otherwise dentists will be busy.


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## captain nemo1701 (17 Mar 2020)

Phaeton said:


> I'm not convinced that is the reason, I think it's more to do with the chances of being caught & more importantly fined/penalised are virtually nil. Last week the local council had a parking inspector/enforcement officer (or whatever the latest re-branding now calls them) was outside the local school, they ticketed cars parked on the zig-zag of the crossing, in the bus stop, at least 1 car parked on the junction, but as far as I know not on a couple parked half/half on the footpath. The next day no cars were parked in these areas, TBH not been back since so it may well be as bad again.


Yes, thats a contributing factor too. I call it the 'dump it anywhere you can get away with it' attitude.


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## Beebo (17 Mar 2020)

MarkF said:


> It's good news for me, I've always thought cheap electric bikes/scooters wheelers would change commuting, never ever thought electric cars would. Best way to get cars off the road IMO.


What’s the range of a scooter with an 85kg adult plus laptop?


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## Phaeton (17 Mar 2020)

Beebo said:


> What’s the range of a scooter with an 85kg adult plus laptop?


Lightweight


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## CanucksTraveller (17 Mar 2020)

Beebo said:


> What’s the range of a scooter with an 85kg adult plus laptop?



About 10 to 20 miles. Some (the much more expensive ones) can do more. 

We looked into one as my wife has a 1.5 mile trip to the train station, a 4 mile train journey (1 stop) and then another 1.5 miles at the other end. It would have been perfect. 
We had to abandon the idea due to the fact they're (a) not legal on road or pavement and (b) the train company doesn't allow them.


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## Beebo (17 Mar 2020)

CanucksTraveller said:


> About 10 to 20 miles. Some (the much more expensive ones) can do more.
> 
> We looked into one as my wife has a 1.5 mile trip to the train station, a 4 mile train journey (1 stop) and then another 1.5 miles at the other end. It would have been perfect.
> We had to abandon the idea due to the fact they're (a) not legal on road or pavement and (b) the train company doesn't allow them.


Is that a policy. I can see why trains might not want them blocking their trains. But they fold quite small.


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## CanucksTraveller (17 Mar 2020)

Beebo said:


> Is that a policy. I can see why trains might not want them blocking their trains. But they fold quite small.



It's policy on Thameslink, yes, we enquired. Folding bicycles only, sadly.


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## swee'pea99 (17 Mar 2020)

CanucksTraveller said:


> It's policy on Thameslink, yes, we enquired. Folding bicycles only, sadly.


The kneejerk response of the average British institution: if in doubt, say no.


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## MarkF (17 Mar 2020)

Beebo said:


> What’s the range of a scooter with an 85kg adult plus laptop?



The market just changed.


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## Drago (17 Mar 2020)

I for one dont welcome them. Cycling has been around for well over century and anyone wanting cheap and effective local or urban transport need look no further, but they choose not too because that smacks of effort A powered scooter is simply pandering to the bone idle lazy and self entitled.


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## MarkF (17 Mar 2020)

Drago said:


> I for one dont welcome them. Cycling has been around for well over century and anyone wanting cheap and effective local or urban transport need look no further, but they choose not too because that smacks of effort A powered scooter is simply pandering to the bone idle lazy and self entitled.


 
But I reckon it'd get a good % of the car driving staff who commute to the hospital out of their cars, most of whom live within a 10 mile radius. I know a few who have something like the below and that's the sort of thing I was thinking of, not the wibbly wobbly things.


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## Stephenite (18 Mar 2020)

CanucksTraveller said:


> It's policy on Thameslink, yes, we enquired. Folding bicycles only, sadly.


Wrap it in a bin bag.


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## Stephenite (18 Mar 2020)

I bought one for the gf last year. It's great. I often take the 4 year old to kindergarten on it. And occasionally used it for the 10km commute to work - on the road.


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## Joey Shabadoo (30 Jun 2020)

*Rental e-scooters to be made legal on UK roads from Saturday*
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53219331

So what's the thinking in not allowing privately owned scooters?


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (30 Jun 2020)

I'm guessing it's partly a trial


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## fossyant (30 Jun 2020)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> *Rental e-scooters to be made legal on UK roads from Saturday*
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53219331
> 
> So what's the thinking in not allowing privately owned scooters?



Probably because hired ones will have some form of insurance.


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## captain nemo1701 (30 Jun 2020)

Drago said:


> I for one dont welcome them. Cycling has been around for well over century and anyone wanting cheap and effective local or urban transport need look no further, but they choose not too because that smacks of effort A powered scooter is simply pandering to the bone idle lazy and self entitled.



My sentiments exactly.

I note in the BBC article that PACT says that illegal fast scooters - some can do up to 85kph, which is about 52 mph in old money - that they'll get used in public and the rules are being glossed over. How true, the Tories won't be able to police this now. Thanks a bunch Boris you fat fool, I'll now have to deal with morons on these on cyclpaths...


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## newfhouse (30 Jun 2020)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> *Rental e-scooters to be made legal on UK roads from Saturday*
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53219331
> 
> So what's the thinking in not allowing privately owned scooters?


I presume there will be licences offered to the rental operators. If there’s chaos and carnage the licences can be withdrawn. It also makes it easier to ensure type approval and provides a link between machines involved in injury collisions and the renter that paid for it.


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## Drago (30 Jun 2020)

The BBC are jumping the gun. It's still not been officially announced.

However, I'm sure the BBC didn't make it up for a laugh, although they seem to do that with a lot of news reporting. A similar trial didn't go especially well in Paris, and I'm sure the British are unlikely to behave any more sensibly.


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## newfhouse (30 Jun 2020)

From the BBC article.


> The government will set out later the rules by which e-scooter-for-hire firms and riders should abide.


Good to see it all being joined up and communicated in the usual way.


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## fossyant (30 Jun 2020)

What's so difficult about a human powered adult scooter - they are quite fun. A colleague uses one on occasion to cut the travel time right down from the station to the office, which is 25 minutes brisk walk. Takes her 10 mins on the scooter. Even my fuddy duddy Brother in law has an adult scooter.


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## dodgy (30 Jun 2020)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> So what's the thinking in not allowing privately owned scooters?



As others have said, insurance probably. But also it's a pilot, it's good to have consistency to measure success. So they'll have a known quantity of escooters, with a known max speed and a known state of maintenance.


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## tyred (30 Jun 2020)

I think these could be a great commuting tool and in theory should help reduce congestion and get cards of the road. 

The sad reality is that it wouldn't make much difference as people are allergic to being out in anything less than perfect weather and they want the biggest possible 4X4 tank to feel more important than Mr. Jones next door and to keep little Samantha safe from all the drivers of lesser cars on the 353.2 metre journey to school.


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## Pat "5mph" (30 Jun 2020)

Mod Note:
I've merged the already existing E-scooters thread into this one, will also move it to general cycling


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## Drago (30 Jun 2020)

fossyant said:


> What's so difficult about a human powered adult scooter


Many people are lazy and wish to carry on being lazy. Expending effort by riding a bicycle or pushing a scooter is to be avoided if at all possible.


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## Darius_Jedburgh (30 Jun 2020)

tyred said:


> I think these could be a great commuting tool and in theory should help reduce congestion and get cards of the road.
> 
> The sad reality is that it wouldn't make much difference as people are allergic to being out in anything less than perfect weather and they want the biggest possible 4X4 tank to feel more important than Mr. Jones next door and to keep little Samantha safe from all the drivers of lesser cars on the 353.2 metre journey to school.


And that's why the present cycling mania will die a death once this lockdown eases and the bad weather arrives.


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## Phaeton (30 Jun 2020)

Darius_Jedburgh said:


> And that's why the present cycling mania will die a death once this lockdown eases and the bad weather arrives.


Rang Giant in Sheffield today for a part for a friend talking to the woman who answered the phone whilst her colleague went to check whether the part they said they had in stock actually existed, she commented that they have seen a decrease in activity in the last 10 days


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## dodgy (30 Jun 2020)

Darius_Jedburgh said:


> And that's why the present cycling mania will die a death once this lockdown eases and the bad weather arrives.


It's true I'm afraid. If the weather is absolutely perfect = loads of new cyclists. The minute it's anything less than absolutely optimum weather = quiet.


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## marzjennings (30 Jun 2020)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> *Rental e-scooters to be made legal on UK roads from Saturday*
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53219331
> 
> So what's the thinking in not allowing privately owned scooters?



Enjoy the chaos of randomly dumped scooters everywhere. They may be restricted to travel on the road, but they'll be parked, dumped and thrown everywhere. We went to Stockholm last year and they were just left everywhere.


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## johnnyb47 (30 Jun 2020)

Surely It's going to be difficult to police which scooters are rental and which are private. With hundreds of these little machines wizzing past without obvious identities the private ones will easily slip through the net.


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## sotal (30 Jun 2020)

It seems madness that rental ones will be legal from Saturday but private ones won't. 

Only any use for inner city use. Could be quite useful for my 2 mile commute but I'm guessing the nearest rental place would be in the nearest big town/city which is 10 miles away making it pointless.


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## DaveReading (30 Jun 2020)

fossyant said:


> What's so difficult about a human powered adult scooter - they are quite fun.



The thread isn't about those.


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## Dave7 (1 Jul 2020)

On the seafront of Pollenca (Majorca) last year there were lots of them (it probably seemed to be more than there actually was). Some of the users seemed mental cases, the speed they went along the cycle paths.
I foresee lots of accidents ahead.


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## captain nemo1701 (1 Jul 2020)

johnnyb47 said:


> Surely It's going to be difficult to police which scooters are rental and which are private. With hundreds of these little machines wizzing past without obvious identities the private ones will easily slip through the net.



I have been going on about this for about a year now. Bloke I've seen numerous times on the B2B cyclepath has an unrestricted model, goes about the same speed as a car. In case folk think I'm wrongly identifying things, this one is bigger, has a bigger motor housing, fatter wheels and boy, does it go fast. I googled the top range ones - they can do up to 50mph. So yes, utterly pointless this 'rental only' crap, people parting with £500 a shot for something that's not legal clearly don't give a toss. And it'll never be policed.

So thanks Boris you twat, you've effectively motorised the cyclepaths of the UK.


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## mustang1 (1 Jul 2020)

mustang1 said:


> I do not believe that electric scooters are illegal as long as they are limited to certain speed, probably similar to bikes.


That's weired that I wrote that. I probably meant:

I do not believe electric scooters should be illegal as long as they are limited to a certain speed, probably similar to bikes.


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## mustang1 (1 Jul 2020)

mustang1 said:


> I do not believe that electric scooters are illegal as long as they are limited to certain speed, probably similar to bikes.


That's weired that I wrote that. I probably meant:

I do not believe electric scooters should be illegal as long as they are limited to a certain speed, probably similar to bikes.


sotal said:


> It seems madness that rental ones will be legal from Saturday but private ones won't.
> 
> Only any use for inner city use. Could be quite useful for my 2 mile commute but I'm guessing the nearest rental place would be in the nearest big town/city which is 10 miles away making it pointless.


I'm just guessing here (haven't looked into it as I just came across this news) but maybe the rental ones will be guaranteed with speed restrictions, whereas private ones could be modified.
Edit:
But I'd like to see private ones allowed too. In this age of coronavirus, privates ones are probably a safer option.


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## captain nemo1701 (1 Jul 2020)

mustang1 said:


> That's weired that I wrote that. I probably meant:
> 
> I do not believe electric scooters should be illegal as long as they are limited to a certain speed, probably similar to bikes.
> 
> ...



Restricted...that's bollox. Folk are quite prepared to fork out £500 or so on illegal models, so they won't probably adhere to any speed limits. Do we want this on cyclepahs? (I have already seen them!)
fast e scooter
The market, including shops flogging models you can't use on roads, is pushing our useless Tory Govt into submission. This is just a green light for the eventual use of fast scooters on cyclepaths. The cycle network of the UK is going to become a highway for fast motorised scooters. Kind of defeats the idea that there should be space for non-motorised traffic.

How are sites & shops allowed to sell these given that they aren't street legal??. Can't see anyone parting with a wad of cash is going to obey any rules.


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## Joey Shabadoo (1 Jul 2020)

Want one


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## GM (1 Jul 2020)

My boy has got one, it's a great piece of kit. Of coarse I had to have a go, down the road and back, still had the smile on my face an hour later!


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## Drago (1 Jul 2020)

I see people wishing to hire one as part of the trial will need a "driving licence", although the Beeb don't state of what class.


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## tom73 (1 Jul 2020)

Guidelines for the trial have been published.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...rators#eligibility-and-dft-trial-requirements

It look's like they will be allowed in cycle lines and @Drago the licence requirement look's to be full or provisional driving licence AM, A1,2 A and B. Allowing them to ride cat Q vehicles.


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## Red17 (1 Jul 2020)

Not sure that anyone will actually check licences, but in theory if a licence is required are they aiming to make any traffic offences endorsable?


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## Drago (1 Jul 2020)

Yes, it's a motor vehicle so any offences would be punishable as if it were a car or motorcycle.

If the hire firm dont check licences and let an unlicenced rider use one, they're guilty of "use, cause or permit" offences and the person that gave them the scooter risks being personally prosecuted for that, so we can be pretty sure they'll rigorously be checking peoples tickets.


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## vickster (1 Jul 2020)

GM said:


> My boy has got one, it's a great piece of kit. Of coarse I had to have a go, down the road and back, still had the smile on my face an hour later!


Presumably he only rides it on his private estate currently


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## screenman (1 Jul 2020)

The coach drivers forum is excited, " another slow moving target" one guy said, they mostly dislike cyclist.


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## Drago (1 Jul 2020)

Its not worth risking it. The Met occasionally have a purge, and finger 20 or 30 at a time. They get done for all the document offences, including no insurance. No insurance is considered a dishonesty offence, so you risk grief for years trying to get loans, credit, car insurance etc, and as a dishonesty offence its regarded in the same vein as fraud so shows on certain types of DBS check as well. All that on top of the fine and minimum 6 points is a real kick in the spuds, so I personally wouldn't even risk a quick jolly round the cul de sac on one.


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## GM (1 Jul 2020)

vickster said:


> Presumably he only rides it on his private currently estate




Ha ha, of course, where else!


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## captain nemo1701 (1 Jul 2020)

I'm glad I have 29 inch wheels & fork suspension. Imagine hitting a pothole & coming off in three or four lanes of traffic...Scary on a bike, seems a bit scarier to me on something with wheels that size. A small hole to my bike wheel must be a yawning chasm to those things. plus, this happens:


I remember the massive skateboard craze of 1977. We all had 'em & one discovered quite quickly that your nemesis was a piece of grit. Well, by 1978 the craze had died down as my mates & I opted for fun in a galaxy far, far away.... Skateboard in loft for about a decade, eventually chucked out. Of course, they still got used & are around now. But the fad was very much over from it's heyday when you couldn't move for them on the streets and lots of skateboard shops popped up out of nowhere just like quantum particles. but a year later...gone. I look on e scooters a bit like that, everyone goes nuts over them, but eventually it subsides, probably when the accident stats start climbing.

Speaking of skateboards, the inevitable e-skateboard has problems too:


I'll stick to cycling. My legs have never spontaneously combusted.


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## Joey Shabadoo (1 Jul 2020)

Oh wow! They shoot flames like a rocket ship too?


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## dodgy (1 Jul 2020)

People seem to be caught up on the whole "rental scooters only, why?" and "why do you need a driving license to ride a toy!!!?????".

Again, it's like already said up thread. It's a controlled pilot; known equipment, a given competency of participants having similar levels of training etc. This is so relatively safe conclusions can be come to at the end of the pilot.

There's no suggestion that once the pilot is over, you'd need a driving license and your own 15.5mph escooter would remain illegal.

I'd have one, possibly, but I'd be bothered that it would become the default non-active travel option. So I probably won't. Though I might jump on a rental to quickly get across a town I'm in but don't live in.


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## newfhouse (1 Jul 2020)

dodgy said:


> a given competency of participants having similar levels of training


I agree with your general thrust, but you only need a provisional licence and no CBT is required. I suspect the licence is a way of enforcing a lower age limit and being able to sanction anyone that (a) causes harm, and (b) gets caught doing so.


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## Garry A (1 Jul 2020)

We used the Lime hire scooters in Copenhagen. They were great fun and got us across town and back to the cruise ship. All seemed good.
Over here I think it will be total carnage.


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## dodgy (1 Jul 2020)

newfhouse said:


> I agree with your general thrust, but you only need a provisional licence and no CBT is required. I suspect the licence is a way of enforcing a lower age limit and being able to sanction anyone that (a) causes harm, and (b) gets caught doing so.



Yup, think you mean higher age limit, but yes. If the trial had been all ages, all competencies, all personally owned equipment, it would have resulted in a statistical mess.


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## newfhouse (1 Jul 2020)

dodgy said:


> Yup, think you mean higher age limit, but yes. If the trial had been all ages, all competencies, all personally owned equipment, it would have resulted in a statistical mess.


I could have worded it better 

I still think the stats will be messy unless effort is expended to bar privately owned and overpowered machines from the trial areas. I can’t see that happening.


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## captain nemo1701 (2 Jul 2020)

Just had two kids shoot past my home office window, one on a BMX pedaling as fast as possible being chased by mate on an e-scooter, middle of road, swerving all-over, didn't bother slowing down for the staggered crossroads....

One can see it as natural selection at work....


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## Ajax Bay (2 Jul 2020)

captain nemo1701 said:


> Imagine hitting a pothole & coming off in three or four lanes of traffic...Scary on a bike, seems a bit scarier to me on something with wheels that size. A small hole to my bike wheel must be a yawning chasm to those things.


These vehicles have been successfully (sort of) operating in Paris for over a year now. Have to say I found them a challenge riding alongside them (on a bike in traffic) as they exhibited limited discipline eg lanes etc. So presumably the accident rate through 'pothole interaction' has been sufficiently low.
I think there is merit in setting the governor limit to 12mph (rather than 15) to increase safety. In London you'd still get round faster than a car (door to door).
Would also help the police discriminate (in a good way) between legal and illegal (ie ungoverned) vehicles.
And I hope they're kept on roads and (by law) off any thoroughfare where pedestrians are moving (eg shared paths). Cyclists can hold their own (alongside 15mph max e-bikes).
https://www.wired.com/story/paris-escooters-regulation/
In a survey - looking at use by locals (ie not tourists so perhaps relevant to most UK cities except London and Edinburgh) 8% of e-scooter use was a substitute for driving, a third was instead of using public transport and over half was 'instead of' walking. So not much 'getting people out of cars'. And inferred adverse health effects by reducing casual but beneficial physical exercise (walking).


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## fossyant (2 Jul 2020)

Scooters are even easier to chuck into the canal, so won't be any in Manchester - give it a week.


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## confusedcyclist (2 Jul 2020)

MarkF said:


> It's good news for me, I've always thought cheap electric bikes/scooters wheelers would change commuting, never ever thought electric cars would. Best way to get cars off the road IMO.



It's a nice thought, but unless there's an active push to reduce motorcar capacity on roads, Jevons paradox comes into play. No amount of fancy tech, or uptake in bikes will reduce the total demand for roads.


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## captain nemo1701 (2 Jul 2020)

"In a survey - looking at use by locals (ie not tourists so perhaps relevant to most UK cities except London and Edinburgh) 8% of e-scooter use was a substitute for driving, a third was instead of using public transport and over half was 'instead of' walking. So not much 'getting people out of cars'. And inferred adverse health effects by reducing casual but beneficial physical exercise (walking)"

I stand with Drago, they seem to appeal to the bone idle brigade whose legs won't work properly.


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## vickster (2 Jul 2020)

fossyant said:


> Scooters are even easier to chuck into the canal, so won't be any in Manchester - give it a week.


£1k Or higher deposit on a swiped credit card should limit


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## Drago (2 Jul 2020)

Ajax Bay said:


> These vehicles have been successfully (sort of) operating in Paris for over a year now. Have to say I found them a challenge riding alongside them (on a bike in traffic) as they exhibited limited discipline eg lanes etc. So presumably the accident rate through 'pothole interaction' has been sufficiently low.
> I think there is merit in setting the governor limit to 12mph (rather than 15) to increase safety. In London you'd still get round faster than a car (door to door).
> Would also help the police discriminate (in a good way) between legal and illegal (ie ungoverned) vehicles.
> And I hope they're kept on roads and (by law) off any thoroughfare where pedestrians are moving (eg shared paths). Cyclists can hold their own (alongside 15mph max e-bikes).
> ...


Except the scheme in Paris hasn't been regarded as a success. More a lukewarm "meh". As time goes by it is drawing increasing criticism from Parisiennes who are getting fed up with the antics of the users and the litter problem, and it must be bad if even the French are starting to criticise the road manners of the users. That's akin to Svlad the Impaler complaining there are too many heads on stakes cluttering the place up.

And we must urge caution. What works abroad rarely translates successfully to here, with different laws, culture and tolerance levels. Even within the British isles things doesn't always translate from one nation to another - all day drinking regulations passed with little problem in Scotland during the trials, but it's been carnage in England since its introduction,

The government are right to want to trial it here under controlled circumstances, and right to research what has happened elsewhere but also right to regard the overseas experience as not being automatically applicable to the UK.


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## dodgy (2 Jul 2020)

Must admit, I was initially enthusiastic at the idea of electric scooters, I honestly really wanted one. Put a bit more thought into it of late and think it's a retrograde step. We already have options - walking, cycling, adult scooters etc.


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## dodgy (2 Jul 2020)

Paris video today, seems to be a few using scooters.

View: https://twitter.com/bencoates1/status/1278588429006143490


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## Joey Shabadoo (2 Jul 2020)

Don't see that they're any different from bikes tbh.


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## Dwn (2 Jul 2020)

I passed (he was going on the opposite direction) one today in Glasgow. He was going pretty fast, but I wondered how such small wheels coped with poor surfaces. A lot of potholes could easily swallow the entire wheel.


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## Ajax Bay (2 Jul 2020)

Dwn said:


> One pothole could easily swallow an entire front wheel.


FTFY


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## Joey Shabadoo (3 Jul 2020)

View: https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/hkb7pb/wtf_is_going_on_here/


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## captain nemo1701 (3 Jul 2020)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> Don't see that they're any different from bikes tbh.


Top of the range model due in the UK in September can do...100kph. I don't think we need fools riding those on the road or cyclepath.


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## Electric_Andy (3 Jul 2020)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> Don't see that they're any different from bikes tbh.


Nor do I. They sound like an ideal way to get people to work in the same time that cycling would, but rather than having to get showered and changed at either end, one could just hop off, lock up the scooter and sit at one's desk. And they'd still get more cars off the road. I can't really see a downside if operated by a sensible rider who has good road sense, and they remain limited to 12 or 15mph


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## Ajax Bay (3 Jul 2020)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> Don't see that they're any different from bikes tbh.


Brakes are poorer (I suspect) - as in distance to stop from 15mph. I suspect the main difference is the rider population's behaviours.


Electric_Andy said:


> they'd still get more cars off the road


Study of use in Paris has shown that only 8% of use was instead of car use. Agree your 'sensible rider' comment, tho'but. Think 12mph tops would make things safer and restrict misbehaviour yet still allow low-sweat efficient use for getting around cities. Millions of commuter miles not walked will reduce users' fitness.


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## Electric_Andy (3 Jul 2020)

Ajax Bay said:


> Millions of commuter miles not walked will reduce users' fitness.


 True, but it depends on what we're trying to acheive. And that would vary a lot between towns, cities and counties. I think reducing the number of car commutes would be highest priority, and trading that for e-scooters or fully e-bikes. Those who want the fitness aspect can still walk or cycle, but there are many who do not need that (because they go to a gym or go running etc). For people like me who would normally have a 4-mile steady uphill commute, it would be ideal to breeze up there in my work clothes on an e-scooter without having to shower and change at the end.


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## Poacher (3 Jul 2020)

captain nemo1701 said:


> Top of the range model due in the UK in September can do...100kph. I don't think we need fools riding those on the road or cyclepath.


I'll see your 100kph and raise to 110kph.
Its predecessor, capable of a mere 60mph, appears to be sold out, although simultaneously shown as in stock. Schrodinger's scooter?


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## Drago (3 Jul 2020)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> Don't see that they're any different from bikes tbh.


Try braking from 15mph on each and then tell us you can't see the difference.


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## dodgy (3 Jul 2020)

Drago said:


> Try braking from 15mph on each and then tell us you can't see the difference.


Spot on, you really do have to try it and see. They just want to tip you forward. Still, not as bad as those electric wheel things that you stand astride, bloody lethal!


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## numbnuts (3 Jul 2020)

Drago said:


> Try braking from 15mph on each and then tell us you can't see the difference.



View: https://youtu.be/C4v5CYfPTBc


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## tom73 (3 Jul 2020)

Coming to Teesside, Darlington and Hartlepool later in July
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-53272688


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## G3CWI (3 Jul 2020)

tom73 said:


> Coming to Teesside, Darlington and Hartlepool later in July
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-53272688


I am deeply disappointed that the government missed the opportunity to introduce the scooters on the same day that the pubs opened. That would have been epic.


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## dodgy (3 Jul 2020)

numbnuts said:


> View: https://youtu.be/C4v5CYfPTBc




I don't suppose many scooterists spend their entire time crouched with their centre of gravity about 2 foot from the ground.


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## Chromatic (3 Jul 2020)

dodgy said:


> I don't suppose many scooterists spend their entire time crouched with their centre of gravity about 2 foot from the ground.



That scooterist didn't either.


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## dodgy (3 Jul 2020)

Chromatic said:


> That scooterist didn't either.


Either way, prepared for it.


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## Joey Shabadoo (3 Jul 2020)

dodgy said:


> Either way, prepared for it.


Rather unsporting of him.


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## dodgy (3 Jul 2020)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> Rather unsporting of him.


Yes, far more entertaining to have some yoof spring out with a knife and see how quick he stops/steers out the way.


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## Joey Shabadoo (3 Jul 2020)

I wonder how safe these e-scooters are when giant venom-spitting bats with chainsaws attack?


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## Chromatic (3 Jul 2020)

dodgy said:


> Either way, prepared for it.



He wasn't crouched down at all for most of the stops shown.


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## dodgy (3 Jul 2020)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> I wonder how safe these e-scooters are when giant venom-spitting bats with chainsaws attack?


That remains a major concern.


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## dodgy (3 Jul 2020)

Chromatic said:


> He wasn't crouched down at all for most of the stops shown.



Whatever. It's staged.


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## fossyant (3 Jul 2020)

I may have done a good 20 mph down the hill from my house on one of the kid's micro scooters, with the other scooter over my shoulder on the way to collect them (the kids) from Primary.


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## Lozz360 (6 Jul 2020)

vickster said:


> £1k Or higher deposit on a swiped credit card should limit


I'm pretty sure the vandalism happens when they are not on hire and just parked. Therefore, it would be unfair to bill the last hirer as he or she may have parked it responsibly.


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## vickster (6 Jul 2020)

Lozz360 said:


> I'm pretty sure the vandalism happens when they are not on hire and just parked. Therefore, it would be unfair to bill the last hirer as he or she may have parked it responsibly.


Just report as stolen if it gets chucked in canal!


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## Twilkes (6 Jul 2020)

Dwn said:


> I passed (he was going on the opposite direction) one today in Glasgow. He was going pretty fast, but I wondered how such small wheels coped with poor surfaces. A lot of potholes could easily swallow the entire wheel.



I wouldn't want to ride a scooter on any of the roads I ride in Glasgow,parts of it are like the moon, and from my experience of riding a non-e-scooter once a year on MOT day I'm way more stable on a bike! Why stand up when you can sit down?


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## midlife (6 Jul 2020)

Starting in the North east I believe...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-53272688


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## BoldonLad (6 Jul 2020)

captain nemo1701 said:


> Just had two kids shoot past my home office window, one on a BMX pedaling as fast as possible being chased by mate on an e-scooter, middle of road, swerving all-over, didn't bother slowing down for the staggered crossroads....
> 
> One can see it as natural selection at work....



Hopefully


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## BoldonLad (6 Jul 2020)

tom73 said:


> Coming to Teesside, Darlington and Hartlepool later in July
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-53272688



Good choices. A bit of Darwinism needed there.


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