# Police Forcing Cyclists to Use Cycle Super Highways



## spen666 (28 Jan 2018)

Not sure if the Metropolitan Police have got a new policy of ordering cyclists to get off the road and use cycle super highways. Would be interested to hear if anyone else has similar experiences to the two incidents this last week.

On Thursday night, I was cycling home along the A11 between Stepney Green and Mile End. There is a cycle super highway, an operational bus lane ( signed for use by buses, taxis, motor cycles and taxis) and a lane for all traffic.

At that part of my commute, I always ride in the "bus lane" because :
a) I am allowed to
b) I determine it safer on that stretch than the cycle super highway

After passing the lights by the university a PCSO rode alongside me and as he passed he told me to "get off the farking road and onto the cycle superhighway". When I shouted back to him "why" he told me I had to use the cycle super highway.

I laughed at him, tpold him to ticket me then and rode on. He did not follow me. I put this down to him being a PCSO and not knowing the law and him wanting to pretend he had some form of authority.

I told my fellow cycling friend the story over a beer on Friday night and thought nothing more of it.

Tonight my mate contacted me to tell me his 22 year old student son was stopped by police officers in a marked car on ( I think) Friday night somewhere near Lambeth Bridge and told to get off his bike in a bus land and that he had to ride on the cycle superhighway. Said lad told the police officer he had right to ride on road. Police officer also threatened him with a prosecution for obstructing the highway until said student pointed out the whole incident was recorded on his bike mounted Go Pro and would include the police officer telling him he was obstructing the highway by means of merely riding on the road!

It could simply be coincidence, but 2 incidents in a few days involving Met Police and PCSOs incorrectly telling cyclists there are not allowed on the road and threatening to ticket them is concerning


Would be interested to see if anyone else has had recent similar issues with the Met Police


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## classic33 (28 Jan 2018)

May be nothing more than an order passed down following complaints about the facility not being used. I'd stay on the road.


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## glasgowcyclist (28 Jan 2018)

Have you asked the Met to account for these incidents?


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## Ming the Merciless (28 Jan 2018)

Get their numbers if it happens again and ask which station they operate out of.


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## mjr (28 Jan 2018)

I'm 90% sure that PCSOs cannot order traffic and so I wouldn't expect them to know traffic law. The question is why they were attempting to police traffic.

The Lambeth Bridge one is more worrying. That probably should be in a complaint.


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## Tim Hall (28 Jan 2018)

mjr said:


> I'm 90% sure that PCSOs cannot order traffic and so I wouldn't expect them to know traffic law. The question is why they were attempting to police traffic.
> 
> The Lambeth Bridge one is more worrying. That probably should be in a complaint.


Rather brilliantly, according to the gov.uk website, a PCSO has the power to stop a cycle if it is suspected of being ridden on a footpath. Which in this case it obviously wasn't.


> Power to stop cycles:
> Powers of a constable in uniform to stop a
> cycle under section 163(2) of the Road Traffic Act 1988 when a
> PCSO has reason to believe that a person has committed the
> offence of riding on a footpath.


Linky


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## Slick (28 Jan 2018)

Has the go pro footage been uploaded yet?


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## spen666 (29 Jan 2018)

classic33 said:


> May be nothing more than an order passed down following complaints about the facility not being used. I'd stay on the road.


I have no intention of stopping riding on road. 

I would welcome a prosecution


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## spen666 (29 Jan 2018)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Have you asked the Met to account for these incidents?


Not yet, I only learned of 2nd incident tonight.

I understand friend is to speak with LCC re his son's incident


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## swansonj (29 Jan 2018)

Tim Hall said:


> Rather brilliantly, according to the gov.uk website, a PCSO has the power to stop a cycle if it is suspected of being ridden on a footpath. Which in this case it obviously wasn't.
> 
> Linky


Hmm. The body of the text in that link correctly used the term "footway" but the heading you quote uses "footpath", which is wrong as there is no offence of riding on a footpath. Not exactly helping clear up confusion as to PCSO roles when they can't get it right themselves.


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## booze and cake (29 Jan 2018)

I believe the correct response is to laugh, flip them the bird and hit the afterburners, those PCSO bikes are hunks of junk, losing them is as easy as dropping your keys

I regularly ignore the provided cycle lanes I favour of the road, CS3 is worth avoiding for all the never cleaned smashed glass alone, CS7 has cars regularly parked in it so you're forced out of it anyway, and some if it is just badly designed in my view and I'm not going to support it by cycling in it. I always cycle on the road around the mess of a cycle route at Elephant and Castle and there's a new wiggle round the bus stop one on the south side of Westminster Bridge thats ignored by everyone already.

I've yet to be taken to task on it, or seen anyone else told either, sounds like you just encountered jobsworth of the week, who don't know what they're on about. I know the cycle lanes are not mandatory so I would ignore them anyway, they can ask me to cycle there but I'll just smile and say no thanks.


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## mjr (29 Jan 2018)

booze and cake said:


> I know the cycle lanes are not mandatory so I would ignore them anyway, they can ask me to cycle there but I'll just smile and say no thanks.


We've had one terminology correction, so here's another: I think most of the superhighways discussed above are mandatory (motorists required to keep out, normally a solid line or kerb) but not compulsory (cyclists aren't required to use them).


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## spen666 (29 Jan 2018)

booze and cake said:


> ....I know the cycle lanes are not mandatory so I would ignore them anyway, they can ask me to cycle there but I'll just smile and say no thanks.




I personally have no intention of ignoring them. I am happy to be prosecuted for this as I know I am legally correct.


My concern is more about what they are telling other, less legally clued up cyclists who are likely to believe Met police officers or PCSOs


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## spen666 (29 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5132627, member: 45"]Neither of those accounts involve a cyclist being forced to use a SH. Presumably because there's no power to do so.
[/quote] in both cases the police / PCSO DID try to force cyclist to use the cycle superhighway. They failed because in both instances the cyclists knew their rights


> The best thing that you can do, on behalf of all cyclists who don't know their rights, is to use your legal background and take it up properly with the police.



Which is why I was asking on here if others had similar experiences.

A sensible person tries to understand the situation before raising complaints


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## winjim (29 Jan 2018)

I've nothing to add regarding the superhighways, but if you're making a complaint, and if your account of the first incident is correct, I hope they will be looking into the conduct of the officer aggressively swearing at you.


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## glasgowcyclist (29 Jan 2018)

spen666 said:


> in both cases the police / PCSO DID try to force cyclist to use the cycle superhighway. They failed because in both instances the cyclists knew their rights
> 
> Which is why I was asking on here if others had similar experiences.
> 
> A sensible person tries to understand the situation before raising complaints



It wouldn't matter to me if it had happened to others or not, the fact that I'd been sworn at and given erroneous instruction by a PCSO is enough to go straight to the police with a complaint. I'd ask on here later about similar incidents and supply supporting details if available.


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## mustang1 (29 Jan 2018)

I wouldn't make a complaint. Got no time for that. I'd you tube it and send a link to the tabloids.


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## subaqua (29 Jan 2018)

well on CS2 at greenway this morning you wouldn't have had any option but to ride in the road. some twunt in a Thames water van had parked in the lane and was lying avross the passenger setas playing on his phone.


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## byegad (29 Jan 2018)

I don't know the London cycling scene, but exclusive use cycle ways/paths are a recipe for disaster in my book. Unless they go everywhere I want to go, and there more chance of Donald Trump realising that he's an idiot than that ever being on the cards, I for one avoid them like the plague! They were always going to be used as a means to get us of the normal roads, you know, the ones they metalled to enable safer cycling back in the late 1800s!


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## mustang1 (30 Jan 2018)

byegad said:


> I don't know the London cycling scene, but exclusive use cycle ways/paths are a recipe for disaster in my book. Unless they go everywhere I want to go, and there more chance of Donald Trump realising that he's an idiot than that ever being on the cards, I for one avoid them like the plague! They were always going to be used as a means to get us of the normal roads, you know, the ones they metalled to enable safer cycling back in the late 1800s!


Yeah agreed. There's a new bike path on Lea Bridge Road, London. While I welcome it, I realize I need to keep the speed low even though it's not as badly done as other paths (car drivers actually stop when entering and exiting the side roads, usually). Most cyclists still ride a bit too fast on it though; there are kids and families, people strolling onto the bike path when getting off the bus, but they're no where near as bad as on other similarly designed bike paths.


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## mjr (30 Jan 2018)

byegad said:


> I don't know the London cycling scene, but exclusive use cycle ways/paths are a recipe for disaster in my book. Unless they go everywhere I want to go, and there more chance of Donald Trump realising that he's an idiot than that ever being on the cards, I for one avoid them like the plague! They were always going to be used as a means to get us of the normal roads, you know, the ones they metalled to enable safer cycling back in the late 1800s!


You clearly don't know the London cycling scene, where the implicit threat of multi-ton motor vehicles had been used as a means to get us off the normal roads like the A11. There are reasons not to use some of the cycleways, including needing to reach destinations not on them or using cycle types that don't fit well, or simply avoiding cycleway congestion when there's an underutilised carriageway, but I doubt we'd've seen quite such a sustained increase without them and stuff like London's Kidical Mass pretty much definitely wouldn't have happened without. Many of us posting on forums like this were cycling before, braving the bus lanes or weaving our ways through backstreets and cut-throughs, and we're acutely (sometimes painfully, especially with certain CS2/CS3 crap junctions in East London) aware of the mistakes made as TfL learnt on the job rather than learning from other countries, but I think overall the cycleways made cycling easier and more peaceful for many people. To keep on repeating the same motoring-centric vehicularist designs and expecting different results would be the disaster.

But there are reasons for some people not to use some of the cycleways, so it's wrong if the police are misdirecting and I hope it's stopped.


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## BoldonLad (30 Jan 2018)

As far as I am aware, there is no law which says I cannot walk by the sea, in rough weather, with the attendant risk of being washed out to sea by a large wave.

If a Police Officer/PCSO were to suggest to me, that such action is dangerous, and best avoided, I would regard that as acceptable.

If a Police Officer/PCSO were to tell me I cannot do that, or, to attempt to restrain me from doing that, I would regard that as unacceptable.


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## byegad (30 Jan 2018)

My pet hate is the way cycle farcilities are made so not only do you need to give way to every minor road but you also need a neck with the rotational abilities of an owl in order to keep an eye on traffic at these points. 

There's one stretch of a couple of hundred yards near the Cottage Hospital in Sedgefield where you not only give way 6 times but also cross the main road twice. Using the road you negotiate two roundabouts giving way as necessary, up to twice if there's traffic and you only need to look a few degrees away from directly ahead.


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## mjr (30 Jan 2018)

BoldonLad said:


> As far as I am aware, there is no law which says I cannot walk by the sea, in rough weather, with the attendant risk of being washed out to sea by a large wave.
> 
> If a Police Officer/PCSO were to suggest to me, that such action is dangerous, and best avoided, I would regard that as acceptable.
> 
> If a Police Officer/PCSO were to tell me I cannot do that, or, to attempt to restrain me from doing that, I would regard that as unacceptable.


I think that's a slightly different situation. As far as I know, the safety evidence is weak for cycleways in general and I doubt the CS are any better. I say they're easier in various ways and I find them less stressful because I don't enjoy being tailgated by a long stream of motorists, but I don't feel I can say they're necessarily safer - the devil is in the detail and sadly most UK authorities still stuff up junction details most of the time, including TfL on some CS2 junctions - I think if you search @subaqua's posting history, you'll see painful examples 



byegad said:


> My pet hate is the way cycle farcilities are made so not only do you need to give way to every minor road but you also need a neck with the rotational abilities of an owl in order to keep an eye on traffic at these points.
> 
> There's one stretch of a couple of hundred yards near the Cottage Hospital in Sedgefield where you not only give way 6 times but also cross the main road twice. Using the road you negotiate two roundabouts giving way as necessary, up to twice if there's traffic and you only need to look a few degrees away from directly ahead.


And was that stretch built to the current London Cycle Design Standards? Rubbish sightlines and loads of give-ways sounds like a relic from the past, but while councils aren't compelled to follow one of the better design manuals or standards, there's probably some toxic councils still building them... but bad councils build new roundabouts that are extremely hazardous for cycling too and we don't go overboard and start ranting about how that justifies avoiding all carriageways.


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## classic33 (30 Jan 2018)

The segregation of cyclists on "their own routes/roads" will lead to more calls for us(cyclists) to get off the roads.

I use a road vehicle, and I intend to carry on using them, legally.


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## classic33 (30 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5133911, member: 45"]I'll use both. There's justification for both options. Which is why I don't believe we should submit to the "if we use them we'll be expected to" bullying, and stand up for what's better for everyone.

A bicycle is more than just a road vehicle.[/QUOTE]
There's also the "we've built it for you, use it". 

I've one cycle that doesn't fit many of the local cycle lanes and parts of the local "super highway". Means I have to stay on the road.


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## glasgowcyclist (30 Jan 2018)

classic33 said:


> The segregation of cyclists on "their own routes/roads" will lead to more calls for us(cyclists) to get off the roads.
> 
> I use a road vehicle, and I intend to carry on using them, legally.


In the past 100 years or so, people cycling have been squeezed out of road space because roads, towns and cities are being designed around the car. Bicycling doesn't get much, if any, consideration by planners. While riding along like you're a car is a valiant act of defiance, it isn't going to stop cycling as transport from flatlining.

If we want mass participation cycling, along with all the benefits that brings, then it has to be viable for children, elderly, and those with disabilities. Not everyone has the confidence (bloody-mindedness?) to continually mix with buses and lorries on a daily basis. If you discount segregated cycling, you are discounting the tens of thousands of people who want to ride but cannot in the current road system.

(Edit to correct typo)


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## subaqua (30 Jan 2018)

mjr said:


> I think that's a slightly different situation. As far as I know, the safety evidence is weak for cycleways in general and I doubt the CS are any better. I say they're easier in various ways and I find them less stressful because I don't enjoy being tailgated by a long stream of motorists, but I don't feel I can say they're necessarily safer - the devil is in the detail and sadly most UK authorities still stuff up junction details most of the time, including TfL on some CS2 junctions - I think if you search @subaqua's posting history, you'll see painful examples
> 
> 
> And was that stretch built to the current London Cycle Design Standards? Rubbish sightlines and loads of give-ways sounds like a relic from the past, but while councils aren't compelled to follow one of the better design manuals or standards, there's probably some toxic councils still building them... but bad councils build new roundabouts that are extremely hazardous for cycling too and we don't go overboard and start ranting about how that justifies avoiding all carriageways.




indeed i have suffered paindfully since they were built . 

and get the old bollix from drivers about " use that , thats YOURS "


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## jarlrmai (30 Jan 2018)

Do they grit the super highways?


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## crazyjoe101 (30 Jan 2018)

spen666 said:


> I laughed at him, tpold him to ticket me then and rode on. He did not follow me. I put this down to him being a PCSO and not knowing the law and him wanting to pretend he had some form of authority.


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## Pete Owens (31 Jan 2018)

BoldonLad said:


> As far as I am aware, there is no law which says I cannot walk by the sea, in rough weather, with the attendant risk of being washed out to sea by a large wave.
> 
> If a Police Officer/PCSO were to suggest to me, that such action is dangerous, and best avoided, I would regard that as acceptable.
> 
> If a Police Officer/PCSO were to tell me I cannot do that, or, to attempt to restrain me from doing that, I would regard that as unacceptable.


This is wrong on so many levels that it is difficult to know where to start.

First - and most importantly - the police are not just patronising and irritating passers by who feel free to offer unwanted and ignorant advice that we can happily laugh off. They are in a position of authority, with the power to direct traffic. There are legitimate circumstances which might require the closure of a road and the police could legitimately tell people not to use it. See Highway code:


Rule 105 said:


> You MUST obey signals given by police officers, traffic officers, traffic wardens


Giving illegitimate and discriminatory instructions is an abuse of power. If a police officer gives you an order then that really IS restraining you from doing something. You have to be very confident of your rights and optimistic enough to assume that the magistrate doesn't hold equally anti-cycling prejudices if you are going to ignore them - as Daniel Cadden discovered to his cost. The chances are that if a police officer has tried this with one cyclist riding on the road then they will be doing this to others so it is important that an official complaint is made.

Second - the advice is plain wrong. Even if you accept the argument that a swearing abuse is friendly advice. Riding on the road is much safer than on a side path (which is why the OP was on the road in the first place) so the analogy would be for a policeman to scream at someone walking along a beach on a windy day that they must immediately leave the beach by climbing the adjacent cliff.


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## Scottish Scrutineer (31 Jan 2018)

classic33 said:


> There's also the "we've built it for you, use it".


My retort to elderly drivers who use this line is : "I'm paying for your bus pass, you should use the bus and shouldn't be driving your car"


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## jarlrmai (31 Jan 2018)

"the police are not just patronising and irritating passers by who feel free to offer unwanted and ignorant advice that we can happily laugh off"

It's weird that so many cyclists report and record on video exactly this behavior then.


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## mjr (31 Jan 2018)

jarlrmai said:


> "the police are not just patronising and irritating passers by who feel free to offer unwanted and ignorant advice that we can happily laugh off"
> 
> It's weird that so many cyclists report and record on video exactly this behavior then.


I think "not just" there means "not merely" - as in, they have the power to punish those not obeying.

Most of this Pete Owens's post seems correct IMO, except the claim that the carriageway is safer - the evidence about that is rather weak; weak enough that I feel it's not substantiated.


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## confusedcyclist (31 Jan 2018)

subaqua said:


> indeed i have suffered paindfully since they were built .
> 
> and get the old bollix from drivers about " use that , thats YOURS "


Except when motorists want to park on it, or use it to get around stationary traffic.


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## subaqua (31 Jan 2018)

confusedcyclist said:


> Except when motorists want to park on it, or use it to get around stationary traffic.



Oh yes.

Stands rolling eyes and sighing at how often that happens


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## pjd57 (14 Feb 2018)

jarlrmai said:


> Do they grit the super highways?


In Glasgow there are only a few separated cycle lanes. It's mostly just a bit of paint in the road , which you can't see for parked cars.

But the few properly separated bits we have are most definitely not gritted.


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## glasgowcyclist (19 Feb 2018)

pjd57 said:


> the few properly separated bits we have are most definitely not gritted.



I use the South West Cycle Way (SWCW) through Pollokshields and after three winters of complaining since it opened, it has finally been included in the gritting schedule as of just a few weeks ago. Indeed, it is now classed as a Priority 1 route.
That's not meant to sound like I got it done, it was pressure from many users plus support from a local councillor who is cycle-friendly.

It's still not done well enough or often enough but it is being gritted by one of those mini grit-droppers or occasionally a tractor with a hopper. 

I don't know about the other segregated routes within the city as they're not on my route.


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## pjd57 (19 Feb 2018)

glasgowcyclist said:


> I use the South West Cycle Way (SWCW) through Pollokshields and after three winters of complaining since it opened, it has finally been included in the gritting schedule as of just a few weeks ago. Indeed, it is now classed as a Priority 1 route.
> That's not meant to sound like I got it done, it was pressure from many users plus support from a local councillor who is cycle-friendly.
> 
> It's still not done well enough or often enough but it is being gritted by one of those mini grit-droppers or occasionally a tractor with a hopper.
> ...


On the one occasion I tried using the SWCW in January it was completely covered in ice. 
Wee bit annoying as I could have taken a more direct route on the bus lanes.


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## mgs315 (9 Mar 2018)

Use the CS? Hah, most of the time I’m near CS7 but I’d rather avoid due to the number of vehicles parked in it. Most motorists I’ve encountered (kind of understandably as you’re changing ‘lanes’) expect you to yield to them when leaving the CS to move around obstacles. In such situations it would be better to have no CS at all.


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## mjr (20 Mar 2018)

pjd57 said:


> In Glasgow there are only a few separated cycle lanes. It's mostly just a bit of paint in the road , which you can't see for parked cars.
> 
> But the few properly separated bits we have are most definitely not gritted.


Manchester seems to have started gritting - well done Boardman and Burnham?

View: https://twitter.com/UncleKempez/status/975998158546358272/photo/1


I think I've heard Cambridge has restarted but I've no link for that right now.


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## Mile195 (20 Mar 2018)

I use the Embankment (CS8) every day from Vauxhall to Battersea. That one only has hours of operation from 7am-7pm, like a bus lane. As a result, it frequently gets used for drivers of powerful cars to undertake slower cars from 7:01 every evening.
I wonder if the officer in question would also tell someone off for cycling outside of it, but only up to 6:59pm...


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