# Mickle's tip of the - Season to be Jolly: Wheel truing.



## mickle (6 Dec 2011)

*Spokes*

Truing your wheel or replacing spokes is well within the capabilities of any home mechanic. Bike designer GEOFF APPS explains all. So not my tip at all really. Whatever. Take it or leave it. 
*




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*TOOLS REQUIRED*
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Spoke key
Ruler or length of string (or wire)
Medium to large screwdriver
Heavy duty wire cutters
Piece of chalk

*PARTS LISTS*
The spare parts you should have to hand:
Grease (or Vaseline)
New spokes of the correct length
Non-oil penetrating lube

Although the skill and craft of wheel-building may seem daunting, you can easily sort out a buckled wheel. Before beginning, either mount your bicycle in a workstand, or turn it upside down, putting a piece of carpet or anything soft but firm under the saddle and handlebar to protect them. The point is to have your wheels rotating freely.
Removing buckles and truing the rim can be done with the tyre in place on the rim, but to renew a broken spoke or detect concentric deflections in the rim you will need to remove your tyres.
Spin one wheel at a time and spray a penetrating lube onto the nipples. WD40 (or similar) is ideal for this, but make sure the label says it will not damage rubber. Spin your wheels again to allow the lube to penetrate the threads by centrifugal force. The more time you can allow for this process the better.

*(1) GENERAL SPOKE TENSION*
You can expect to have some variation in spoke tension, possibly with one or two spokes quite loose. This is sometimes due to poor tolerances at the manufacturing stage and/or subsequent damage to the rim. You may even discover a broken or missing spoke. Since you want to achieve trueness in the rim, having all spokes at the same tension is less important. I have worked on wheels that could have up to three spokes completely removed without affecting trueness.

Grasp a pair of spokes on each side of the wheel, using the index finger and thumb of each hand (four spokes in all). Squeeze the spokes together and feel for any marked differences in tension. Begin this process at the valve and work round until you get back to it again.
Tighten any spokes that seem to be loose, but only up to roughly the same tension as the others. This may or may not make the wheel more wobbly, so refer to 3 to true the wheel.






If a nipple has seized, you will have to break the spoke with a pair of heavy-duty wire cutters (or pliers) and refer to 2 to renew it.

*(2) REPLACING A BROKEN SPOKE*
If a spoke is missing or you have had to break it, you will need to find out the spoke length as accurately as possible by measuring one of the good spokes in the wheel. Find the distance from the centre of the spoke head to the surface of the rim and add 2mm. If you do not have a suitable ruler, use a length of string pulled as tight as possible, or a length of wire.
If the spoke has pulled out of the nipple complete with thread, use it when you buy spares, to be sure you get the same length. If you want to buy some extras for future use, check the lengths on both sides of each wheel - on the rear wheel, they vary. Even if the shop doesn't have one of the right length, they will be able to cut and thread one for you from a longer spoke.
Remove the wheel from your bicycle.

Remove the tyre and tube. If you a replacing a spoke on the freewheel side of your rear wheel, you will probably need to remove the sprockets first.
Put a dab of grease on the threaded end of the new spoke and feed it through the hole in the hub, ensuring that the spoke head is the right way round.
Weave it in and out of the existing spokes, working the end gradually towards the new spoke's hole in the rim (below).

When deciding whether to weave inside or outside, follow the same pattern as the other spokes.
If you have woven it correctly, you will be able to feed it through the spoke hole in the rim.
Hold the end of the spoke in the centre of the hole and put a nipple through the rim and onto the spoke end.

Take up the initial slack using a screwdriver in the slot in the head of the nipple.
Bring the spoke up to tension with a spoke key.
Having replaced all broken spokes and taken up the slack, refer to 3 to true the rim.

*(3) BUCKLES OR WOBBLES*
​This is often referred to as 'truing' or 'centring' the rim. Look at your hub with the tyre close to (and aligned with) your nose. Looking beyond the tyre and focusing on the hub, note that each spoke is attached to one or other side of the hub. Tightening a spoke attached to the left side of the hub pulls the rim to the left, and vice versa.

Despite what most experts say, buckles are almost always caused by one spoke alone. There is no need to worry about working in pairs or opposite spokes or any stuff like that; unless the peak of the wobble happens to fall exactly between two spokes, then you work on the spokes either side of the peak. However, once you have reduced the buckling, you may have to tighten or loosen few other spokes at some other point in the wheel -just keep repeating the 'check-and-adjust' process until the rim runs true.

To avoid your wheel going egg-shaped, use only a half-turn at a time when tensioning the spokes. Check the results before making further adjustments and reduce your adjustments to quarter-turns as the rim runs more true.
Always have by you something (clothes peg, bulldog clip, blu-tak) that you can attach to the spoke you are working on in case you're distracted, then you can easily identify that spoke when you come back to it.

Provided your wheels are in generally good condition, a rim that does not run true is not dangerous at all. It will interfere with rim brake operation, although if you have hub or disc brakes, you don't need to worry about a buckled wheel.
Rotate your wheel slowly and hold a stick of chalk steady against the fork or seat-stay (above), gradually bringing it closer to the braking surface of the rim flange until it just touches it, marking the peaks of any lateral deflections.

Identify the single spoke which is causing the problem at the point of maximum deflection. If the spoke is attached to the same side of the hub as the chalk mark on the rim, the spoke tension should be loosened; if to the opposite, it should be tightened.
If the deflection appears to cover a number of spokes, mark the spoke where the deflection begins, and the one where it ends. These two marked spokes should be attached to opposite sides of the hub.

The same principle of tightening and loosening applies - same side spokes should be loosened, opposite side spokes should be tightened.
Continue the 'check-and-adjust' process
until the rim runs true in the side-to-side plane.
Spin the wheel and check to see if the rim moves up and down in relation to the brake block (or other fixed point). If it does, you have an egg-shaped wheel and should refer to 4 to sort that out.

*(4) EGG-SHAPED WHEELS*
(A) Remove your wheel from the bicycle.
(B) Remove the tyre and tube.
(C) Concentric deflection is detected by using a similar technique as used for sideways deflections but marking on the edges of the rim flanges instead.
Rotate your wheel slowly, and gradually move the chalk towards the rim from the outside. Mark the peaks of deflection.

To adjust in this plane you have to tighten spokes in pairs to pull the rim in (obviously in pairs - one to each side of the hub - to avoid introducing a new wobble).
If the rim goes in towards the hub, it is unlikely that loosening the spokes will drop it out, but do try; it sometimes works. Otherwise, tighten all the other spokes a tiny bit - quarter turn maximum.

Continue the 'check-and-adjust' process until the rim runs true in the side-to-side plane.
After doing any spoke adjusting, you should always finally check the spoke ends to see that they don't protrude through the nipple so far that they could puncture the inner tube. If you think they could, you can simply file the end down until is flush with the nipple head.
Give this a go. You can't do any real damage to your wheels, you may learn a useful skill to dazzle your friends and, should you get into a right pickle, you can always back out of the project and take the wheel to the bike shop and let them sort it.

*Read More:*
Your Own Home Workshop


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## Chris S (6 Dec 2011)

> Despite what most experts say, buckles are almost always caused by one spoke alone. There is no need to worry about working in pairs or opposite spokes or any stuff like that


 
Thanks for that - it should make things a lot easier.


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## Fnaar (6 Dec 2011)

Nicely written and informative tip. Thank you.
I'm off to spray WD40 on my nipples


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## mickle (8 Dec 2011)

Whilst were on the subject can I just say that this, in my view, is the best spoke key that money can buy:




And it's available from, amongst other places, here: http://www.i-ride.co.uk/images/large/6674_3976_094609.jpg


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## PpPete (9 Dec 2011)

Take it or leave it you say?

I'll leave it, thanks all the same.
Any guide to wheel truing or building which includes phrases like " having all spokes at the same tension is less important " is highly suspect.

If you aim to get your spoke tensions even within about 10% on the Park gauge - or if no gauge, get them to within one semitone of each other when plucked, then your wheels will stay true a lot longer. This is more important than trying to get your wheels true to within 10ths of a millimetre.


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## mickle (9 Dec 2011)

PpPete said:


> blah blah blah blah .... highly suspect. Blah blah blah blah etc.


 
Have a different opinion by all means but, Geoff Apps advice? _'Highly suspect_' ??

Every single one of the very many professional wheel builders I have worked alongside (I'm not a wheelbuilder of anyone else's wheels but my own - I'm no expert) has trued and built wheels without the aid of a Park guage and without plucking them.


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## PpPete (9 Dec 2011)

No disrespect to Geoff Apps( or indeed to yourself Mickle) but the article above is the first time I can recall ever seeing it suggested that even spoke tension is of secondary importance.

Every other on-line or in-print guide that I've read (and believe me I''ve looked at a lot) suggests otherwise.

My own experience, after building a fair few wheels for myself and for friends and family, and most crucially trying to correct deficiencies in low-end factory wheels, is that even spoke tension is critical to wheel's ability to stay true. 

Certainly it's possible to true wheels (and indeed build them) without a tension gauge of some sort (Park happens to the be the cheapeast that is widely available) but to try and do so without using the sound of the spokes as a guide to their relative tension would, in my opinion, be the height of folly..... unless of course you are able to charge £££ every time the wheel is returned to you for re-truing.


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## threebikesmcginty (9 Dec 2011)

I haven't bothered to read it but I thought it was excellent - well done chaps!


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## RecordAceFromNew (9 Dec 2011)

PpPete said:


> Every other on-line or in-print guide that I've read (and believe me I''ve looked at a lot) suggests otherwise.


 
+1. Certainly Jobst Brandt and Gerd Schraner clearly said so in their books, and Gravy (about 8 minutes into this). I suspect when quality components are used a seemingly true wheel with unequal spoke tension probably indicates inbuilt instability.


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## mickle (9 Dec 2011)

threebikesmcginty said:


> I haven't bothered to read it but I thought it was excellent - well done chaps!


Glad you like it!


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## mickle (9 Dec 2011)

PpPete said:


> No disrespect to Geoff Apps( or indeed to yourself Mickle) but the article above is the first time I can recall ever seeing it suggested that even spoke tension is of secondary importance.
> 
> Every other on-line or in-print guide that I've read (and believe me I''ve looked at a lot) suggests otherwise.
> 
> ...


I refer the honourable member to the answer I gave a few moments ago.


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## PpPete (9 Dec 2011)

If I'd built as many wheels as Gravy (or indeed Mr Brandt or Mr Schraner ) I'd probably be able to equalise the spoke tension by sense of smell 
But however it's done.... I'll say it again .... if you are building your own wheels, or just truing them, if you want them to stay true, my opinion - _and Mickle and I will just have to agree to disagree on this_ - is that getting the spoke tensions as even as possible is of paramount important.


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## 2old2care (2 Jan 2012)

PpPete said:


> I- getting the spoke tensions as even as possible is of pramount important.


Therefore what you are saying is that the spokes can all be different tensions, and using a tension meter is superflous


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## Red Light (2 Jan 2012)

PpPete said:


> If I'd built as many wheels as Gravy (or indeed Mr Brandt or Mr Schraner ) I'd probably be able to equalise the spoke tension by sense of smell
> But however it's done.... I'll say it again .... if you are building your own wheels, or just truing them, if you want them to stay true, my opinion - _and Mickle and I will just have to agree to disagree on this_ - is that getting the spoke tensions as even as possible is of pramount important.


 
+1 The loose spokes will loose tension completely on bumps and over time loosen off making the wheel go out of true. Not a problem if you are a pro who has their wheels checked after every ride but a real problem for the rest of us.


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## PpPete (2 Jan 2012)

2old2care said:


> Therefore what you are saying is that the spokes can all be different tensions,


No - I'm saying the exact opposite !



2old2care said:


> using a tension meter is superflous


Jury's still out on this one. I built quite a few wheels BEFORE I purchased a tension meter and they are all still true, and reasonably even tensions. I suspect I can get the tensions closer to each other by judicious use of the tension meter instead of plucking... but I need to build a few more with it before I can be certain. For just truing up a wheel - tension meter definitely OTT.


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## BikingChris (2 Jan 2012)

Its swings and roundabouts. In my experience tension is certainly important, one of the most important aspects, but 'plucking' has worked for me really well - I havnt had to do anything with my mtb wheels for about 2 year cont use at Guisburn, Dalby etc


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## Theseus (20 Jan 2012)

Leaving aside the tension question, I have a couple of observations.

Although there may be more bikes out there that use the derailer system for gears and they will have different spoke lengths for each side of the rear wheel, bikes that are fixed, single speed or have internal hub gears are more likely to have spokes the same length.
If the spoke breaks at the shoulder, it is not necessary to remove tyre, tube & rimtape to replace. The knack is to get the new spoke threaded and ready to screw into the nipple before you unscrew the old one. This can save a lot of time.


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## jonny jeez (22 Mar 2012)

I've picked up a wobble (buckle) in my rear this week that is effecting hard braking (makes it feel like I am running with the ABS on!)

Could a beginners attempts at trueing make things worse ...or should i drop it into the LBS?


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## PpPete (23 Mar 2012)

jonny jeez said:


> I've picked up a wobble (buckle) in my rear this week that is effecting hard braking (makes it feel like I am running with the ABS on!)
> 
> Could a beginners attempts at trueing make things worse ...or should i drop it into the LBS?


 
This beginner's first attempts certainly made things worse.... before I realised that I was looking at things the wrong way around, and was loosening spokes I should have been tightening. Why? I was looking from hub towards the rim and then turning the nipple clockwise. 

Think of the spoke as a very long bolt and the nipple as a nut. To tighten a spoke you want to be turning the nipple clockwise as viewed when looking from rim towards the hub. Acutally it's safer to look from hub to rim and turn anticlockwise...just in case a spoke should break and the broken end travel at speed towards your eye - very very rare but it does happen. 

Apart from that - read the OP above, and you can save yourself a lot of money at the LBS.


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## Paul J (23 Mar 2012)

I'd give it a go as I managed to true side to side movement quite easy and even made myself a dish gauge so I could check the rim was central on the hub. Just buy a good spoke key.

What I can't get rid of is a flat spot where the "fatboy" previous owner must have bumped up a kerb.


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## Cyclopathic (24 Mar 2012)

I reckon if I just tighten all the spokes as much as they will possibly go everything will be just fine.


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## jonny jeez (26 Mar 2012)

Odd, I thought I'd already posted this...but...

managed to remove the major wobble, (the offending nipple wasn't even finger tight! all straight forward with a little extra confidence from uncle youtube. Still have a general ripple to the rear, almost undetectable but not true, so what's this about a dish and how do I use that?

thanks guys.


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## PpPete (27 Mar 2012)

"Dish" is whether the centre line of the hub (with the cassette on) lines up with the centre line of the rim.
if you are are just truing a wheel (removing a wobble) it's nothing to worry about.
If you are building a rear wheel from scratch you usually need drive side spokes to be about 2 mm shorter (and a LOT tighter) than the non-drive side.
A dishing gauge helps to centre things up.


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## John the Monkey (27 Mar 2012)

PpPete said:


> Think of the spoke as a very long bolt and the nipple as a nut. To tighten a spoke you want to be turning the nipple clockwise as viewed when looking from rim towards the hub.


Yep. If you have a spokey type spoke key, mark the side you turn towards to tighten. (Roger Musson recommends a dot in permanent marker).


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## Psycolist (19 Apr 2012)

Nice onr bruv. The bit about egg shaped wheels was particularly interesting, CHEERS


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## David Garside (14 Aug 2012)

I spent 2.5 hours last night putting a new rim on the back wheel of my old Raleigh Dakota. Did it a bit at a time, drew a diagram and it all went together quite well. Took a little time to get it concentric and true but I'm pleased to say after a short ride today that it's ok so far. Will check the spokes etc regularly for the next few rides to see if it needs any more adjustment.


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## Andrew_Culture (12 Nov 2012)

Point 3 just saved me going to bed in tears!


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## Kins (20 Jan 2013)

Just sorted a buckle in a new accusation, can't get the wheel totally true no mater what I do though.

Are the older alloy wheels harder to true?


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## compo (20 Jan 2013)

I had a go on my MTB wheel the other day as it was hitting he brake block as it revolved. I used a marker pen and spun the wheel and it marked the rim where it was out of true. Then I started on the edges of the line and loosened the spokes on the side where the line was just about a 1/4 turn, and tightened the spokes on the opposite side of the rim the same amount, slightly less on the ends of the line. It took a couple of goes doing a new line each time but then suddenly it was a good'un. The adjustments were so slight that I didn't need to do anything to the roundness of the wheel, or I would have put it in the shop. I have ridden it and it is fine. First time I have ever been successful doing a wheel.


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## robjh (10 Mar 2013)

I find with wheel-truing that it's very easy, and incredibly satisfying, to get it nearly right, but incredibly hard and frustrating to go that last little bit and get it spot-on. Just had a fairly enjoyable few hours attacking a kink and flat spot from a recent pothole incident, and replaced a few spokes along the way, but I'm still left with a persistent but smaller flatspot - although at least it no longer thumps on every revolution, but I know it's there. What's more, this talk of plucking spokes bothers me, as mine now sound like all the instruments of an orchestra before they've tuned up. Maybe it's back to the drawing board and my LBS.


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## albion (10 Mar 2013)

"Tighten any spokes that seem to be loose, but only up to roughly the same tension as the others. This may or may not make the wheel more wobbly, "

Maybe best avoided on old wheels. You could turn a 2 minute job into a long days worth.


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## Si_ (16 Mar 2013)

i'd love to see the look on bike shop mechanics face now if you asked them to cut and thread a spoke...


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## albion (16 Mar 2013)

The Haughton Cycles guy at Concorde still sizes them exact that way.


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## Si_ (17 Mar 2013)

really? i was under the impression that you shouldn't do that , particularly with butted spokes as it changes the relative lengths of the thinner part to the thicker part? I assume the cut and rethread method only applies to plain gauge?


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## albion (17 Mar 2013)

Obviously if its an unusual length you have to go that way, rather than stocking way too many to be never used.

I imagine you can also get different lengths of the thin part anyway so even there it may only be a change from a 'set perfection'.


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## Shut Up Legs (11 Apr 2013)

_Aargh!_ Can't stop thinking about this thread. I've been thinking for a while now, that it would be nice not to have to rely on a bike shop to build wheels for me, so was thinking of buying the rims, spokes and hubs I'll need for the next pair of wheels on my commuter (the Vivente tourer), and building the wheels myself . The only catch is that the front hub, since I use the bike for commuting every working day without fail, would have to be a new dynohub. I think I can live with that, though - I could just keep the old one as a spare, and use it for the subsequent wheel rebuild.

Just 1 question (for now): the OP mentioned one of the required tools being a heavy-duty wire-cutter. Would these be suitable?


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## mickle (11 Apr 2013)

victor said:


> _Aargh!_ Would these be suitable?


Nope. Them's cable cutters. Spokes will destroy them. Wire cutters look like small bolt croppers - with kissing blades rather than a scissor action. But you dont really need them, only use them to chop the hub out. It's no more difficult to unscrew all the spoke nips, it just takes longer.


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## Shut Up Legs (11 Apr 2013)

mickle said:


> Nope. Them's cable cutters. Spokes will destroy them. Wire cutters look like small bolt croppers - with kissing blades rather than a scissor action. But you dont really need them, only use them to chop the hub out. It's no more difficult to unscrew all the spoke nips, it just takes longer.


Good, thanks for that  . I have the mentioned cable cutters in my Park Tools AK-37 tool box, and I didn't want to ruin them by using them incorrectly.


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## wiggydiggy (12 Apr 2013)

Reply so I remember to bookmark later

Cheers Mickle


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## Kies (12 Apr 2013)

+1


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## Broadside (14 Apr 2013)

mickle said:


> Whilst were on the subject can I just say that this, in my view, is the best spoke key that money can buy:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Mickle - that link no longer works due to a change on the i-ride website. I need to buy a spoke key, which one was it that you recommended?


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## rideswithmoobs (4 May 2013)

Just read this article and it gave me more insight into adjusting my wheels if they are out. One thing when I tried to adjust spokes today was the whole spoke turned so because they are like flat blades in the middle I could see them twist, now surely that aint right  cos they will break. The bike is only 7 months old so what am I doing wrong ? apart from been stupid sometimes


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## ianrauk (4 May 2013)

rideswithmoobs said:


> Just read this article and it gave me more insight into adjusting my wheels if they are out. One thing when I tried to adjust spokes today was the whole spoke turned so because they are like flat blades in the middle I could see them twist, now surely that aint right  cos they will break. The bike is only 7 months old so what am I doing wrong ? apart from been stupid sometimes


 
Did you oil the nipples?


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## rideswithmoobs (4 May 2013)

Erm, stupidly no because I figured hey would be pretty good as there new. WD40 at the ready tomorrow


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## inkd (6 Jun 2013)

So after watching a few vids on youtube and reading the above I think im ready to give this a go tomorrow. Are there any pointers for a truing virgin? do I need to wd40 the nipples first? I have a wobble on the back wheel that is effecting the brakes. I found this video to be easiest to understand


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## DooDah (18 Jul 2013)

Hi Mickle,

I too am after a decent spoke key to try to true a wheel. Your link does not work, but is there one on say Wiggle, CRC or Evans that you would recommend. Thanks.


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## mickle (18 Jul 2013)




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## DooDah (18 Jul 2013)

mickle said:


> View attachment 26423


 
Thanks.


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## Andrew_Culture (18 Jul 2013)

Is it sad to admit that I kinda miss wheel truing now that none of my wheels need it?


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## Shut Up Legs (28 Jul 2013)

A question: how common is it for spoke holes in rims to be perfectly centred, i.e. not alternating between both sides of the rim? It looks like the spoke holes in the DT Swiss TK540 touring rims I just bought are the former, i.e. centred.


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## simonplatt (3 Aug 2013)

good video that, i notice that he didn't mention getting the tensions right. i haven't done many yet, but i tend to look first for loose or broken spokes, then follow the method suggested. on completion i hold a piece of card or similar against the spokes, each side in turn which 'sounds' the tune of the spokes, i believe the vibration also removes any 'twist' in the spokes by loosening them slightly, so i check again for true and repeat the process until they all sound pretty much the same and stay in true.


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## simonplatt (3 Aug 2013)

prompted me to get a better spoke key, i have a dozen or so multi gauge, so want some single gauge ie; 13. 14. 15 mainly the latter 2 which i most use, but they seem not to use gauges now they are either in mm or 'euro' size.


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## Sterba (13 Aug 2013)

I have found the Park Tools spoke key, a triangular item, to be very effective, its sizing is nice and tight so that it doesn't make the nipples round when you have to turn hard (because you didn't give the WD40 enough time to work its way through the thread)


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## fabregas485 (9 Sep 2013)

I replaced the tyres on my bike, and it sounds as if either the front or rear wheel wants to bend. It was fine before changing the tyres. Could it just be the tyres being worked in? (They are schwalbe durano plus)

Spokes need tightening maybe?


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## PpPete (20 Sep 2013)

fabregas485 said:


> I replaced the tyres on my bike, and it sounds as if either the front or rear wheel wants to bend. It was fine before changing the tyres. Could it just be the tyres being worked in? (They are schwalbe durano plus)
> 
> Spokes need tightening maybe?



I don't know how a wheel sounds when it wants to bend. 
Nor do I really understand the concept of a tyre being "worked in"

My guess is that the spokes would have to be catastrophically loose if fitting a tyre was going to affect the trueness.


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## fabregas485 (21 Sep 2013)

PpPete said:


> I don't know how a wheel sounds when it wants to bend.
> Nor do I really understand the concept of a tyre being "worked in"
> 
> My guess is that the spokes would have to be catastrophically loose if fitting a tyre was going to affect the trueness.


 Got the bike out yesterday, and the front and rear spokes had all loosened to the point the wheel was not true. Adjusted the spokes after watching a how to video and both wheels are now true


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## psychology (24 Sep 2013)

Well, great article, I have printed it out as i have to true my front wheel this weekend. Wish me luck


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## fabregas485 (24 Sep 2013)

psychology said:


> Well, great article, I have printed it out as i have to true my front wheel this weekend. Wish me luck


 I feared truing my front wheel (and rear while I was at it) and it was a breeze. If you use your brake pads as a guide, you can see where the wheel is out of line and you can tighten/loosen it into the correct direction.


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## kipster (4 Oct 2013)

Wish I had read this before building a wheel with a new front hub. I got the wheel straight but it has a very slight flat spot. Serves me right for not researching it properly.


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## sreten (5 Oct 2013)

Hi,

My very amateur method for very budget wheels :

1) Go round the wheel using the pluck test and tighten loose spokes, loosen tight
spokes. Don't be precious, just fix the worst near the same as the others.
On the rear do each side separately as each side is differently tensioned.

2) Then look for any wheel wobble. If you have an area to adjust use the pluck
test to decide whether to tighten one side or loosen the other for the same effect.

3) Don't try and get you budget wheels very true, get them near and tensioned fairly even.
I assume the more evenly tensioned they are the more they will stay where they are.

They seem to ride better with more even tension, and minor wobble is not an issue.

My plan, at the first attempt was to adjust the miminum number of spokes,
and fix a clear wobble in the rear wheel, pretty much managed both.

rgds, sreten.


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## Chris S (27 Oct 2013)

What's the advantage in removing the tyre before trying to true a wheel?


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## BigCam (2 Nov 2013)

I have some really bad wheels to deal with. They are steel chromed rims and are suffering from seized nipples and dings in the rims...
Any tips for freeing up the seized nipples, other than cutting them out? I've tried penetrating oil (plus gas) but that didn't seem to help.
Also any tips for straightening out the rims themselves?


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## Chris S (2 Nov 2013)

BigCam said:


> Any tips for freeing up the seized nipples, other than cutting them out? I've tried penetrating oil (plus gas) but that didn't seem to help.
> Also any tips for straightening out the rims themselves?


 
Did you spin the wheels around so that the plus gas is forced into the nipple by centrifugal force?


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## BigCam (3 Nov 2013)

Nope, I did it from the rim side - I'll try from the spoke side like you suggest, and spin it...


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## creakyknees (28 Jun 2014)

I have a few armchair observations, not having had to true a wheel for a large number of years, as I have only recently started cycling again:
1) If correcting a buckled wheel alternating spokes will have different tensions as the spoke tension will need to overcome the "set" that the wheel rim has acquired in the impact that caused the buckle. I suppose in theory if the spoke tension is loosened and tightened by the same amount in alternating spokes it should eliminate the possibility of also needing to correct an out of round condition as the resulting total tensile force in the area of the buckle will be unchanged. For a rim that is or would be perfectly true before being built into a wheel then identical spoke tensions should provide the best reliability for a wheel as the rim would be evenly braced. I have no idea what that tension would be but perhaps the gauge mentioned would assist in finding this.

2) Where the rear wheel drive side hub flange diameter is greater than the non-drive side the spoke tension will seem different when plucked due to the different length spokes (shorter spoke = higher note for same tension - can't remember the equation right now), but in fact will be virtually identical as the small difference in angle due to the larger hub flange and "dishing" (which will tend to cancel out) would I think be negligable.

3) Suggestion was made that spokes should be thicker on the drive side, but I would I have thought the stiffness of the hub in torsion would transmit the torque with negligable angular deflection to the non-drive side of the hub, so equal diameter spokes would be satisfactory.

...as I say just my thoughts.


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## Cold (8 Jul 2014)

I got my wheel trued yesterday at a LBS when I got home I noticed that the wheel is sort of egg shaped is this easy to fix myself or would I be better taking it back to the shop for fixing?


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## David Garside (8 Jul 2014)

I think I'd take it back...if it's too far out and distorted they should replace the rim.....


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## Dave the Smeghead (30 May 2015)

Just ruined a reasonable wheel by using the pluck method.
When it went out too far I had to admit defeat. Wheel is now in the LBS and I am outside hoping he can sort it. 
This is off my commuter so need it for Monday morning. 
I think I had better do a bit more research before trying it again........
LBS on standby......


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## bykeshed (10 Sep 2015)

mickle said:


> You can expect to have some variation in spoke tension, possibly with one or two spokes quite loose. This is sometimes due to poor tolerances at the manufacturing stage and/or subsequent damage to the rim.





PpPete said:


> if you are building your own wheels, or just truing them, if you want them to stay true, my opinion - _and Mickle and I will just have to agree to disagree on this_ - is that getting the spoke tensions as even as possible is of paramount important.



I've tried all sorts of gadgets and found them largely useless - unless the wheel is in perfect condition, which many aren't. Even the slightest damage or imperfection to a wheel can render a spoke completely useless. I've spent hours on some wheels only to keep coming back to the same spoke as the culprit, and most times needing to leave it 'loose' to get the wheel trued.

However, I do use sound in my preferred process. I only squeeze spokes to find the loosest of them, but I start off with tapping them in pairs, and adjusting accordingly so they both 'sound' the same. Then I move onto the fine tuning.


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## nathanliu (17 Sep 2015)

You are very clever.


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## mickle (17 Sep 2015)

nathanliu said:


> You are very clever.



Who? Me? :-)


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## RichardB (8 Nov 2015)

I have never tried a bicycle wheel, but I have rebuilt a motorcycle wheel with new spokes and got it within 1mm of true, which was half the factory tolerance. The wheel stayed true for at least 10,000 miles of hard use. A couple of observations which might be of interest:

1. In an ideal world with perfect materials, all spokes on a true wheel would be of precisely the same tension and emit the same note when plucked. However, there will be variations in the composition of the rim and spokes which means that you will rarely or never achieve that. I aim for all spokes giving a similar sound (say within a perfect fourth, for the musicians among you) and would always tighten any that went plunk rather than ping until they were musical. After that, it's more important to get the rim true than to chase any theoretical perfection in the spoke tension.

2. If you are going to fit all new spokes or a new rim, take a photograph, or several, of the old wheel, showing the angles of the spokes, where they cross, how many they cross, and whether it is over or under. Once you get the wheel dismantled, you will never get it back again the same way unless you have a record of the layout, and a photo is the quickest way to do this.

As someone said up there ^^^ it's not difficult to get it nearly right, and very satisfying to do so, provided you are methodical. Frozen nipples are the main enemy (ooh, matron) and a good practice is to dip the thread of each spoke in engine oil before fitting, and then give each spoke a slight turn (say one-eighth) and back every season to keep them free. Always check the inside of the rim for protruding spokes and file back, as they can be very sharp.


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## Drago (8 Nov 2015)

Chris S said:


> What's the advantage in removing the tyre before trying to true a wheel?


its The method I prefer, it's just more intuitive to to turning clockwise to tighten. Unless it's just a very slight tweak I've always removed the tyre before dressing up as Steven Segal and truing a wheel.


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## Racheluk (23 Nov 2015)

Wheel truing is pretty much the only thing bike mechanics-wise that I haven't tried.. tempted to have a go next time, save a bit of cash from having the lbs do it for me..


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## Flying Dodo (23 Nov 2015)

It is very nice when you resurrect a wheel and get it running evenly. A simple pleasure, but very rewarding.


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## Ajax Bay (30 Nov 2015)

Plus one to Flying Dodo's sentiment.

On 'plucking' to detect tension, for those of us with old wheels (mine are the 'original' as supplied 36 year old Weinmann rims and hubs, but by no means the original spokes (probably only half)), it's worth a quick but systematic pluck check on a regular basis. This will detect a loose spoke, and possibly a very tight one, and in extremis a broken one that has gone un-noticed because the (normally rear) wheel did not go out of true enough to rub on the brake shoes on your last ride. 

I've seen no reference to the need to give the trued wheel a good (across the diameter) squeeze - two hands and waist - to free up twisted spokes and crossing points.


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## loveandpeace1 (5 Dec 2015)

Sorry guys haven't read the whole thread. Is a "spoke tension meter" a must ?.
All the best


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## Ajax Bay (24 Dec 2015)

loveandpeace1 said:


> Is a "spoke tension meter" a must ?



No


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## Tom B (27 Dec 2015)

So today I've tried to bunny hop a drain on my commuter and landed rather clumsily and smashed a sufficiently large flat spot into the wheel that I can feel it on every rotation.

Is this a blip? Is it repairable or am I looking aa new rim?


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## Tin Pot (27 Dec 2015)

So wheel truing and plucking - I've tuned my guitars by ear for nearly thirty years, does this mean I can reuse this skill to tune/true my wheels?


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## Flying Dodo (28 Dec 2015)

Tom B said:


> So today I've tried to bunny hop a drain on my commuter and landed rather clumsily and smashed a sufficiently large flat spot into the wheel that I can feel it on every rotation.
> 
> Is this a blip? Is it repairable or am I looking aa new rim?


 Should be repairable. After all, you've got nothing to lose by having a go. Search out some YouTube videos.


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## Flying Dodo (28 Dec 2015)

Tin Pot said:


> So wheel truing and plucking - I've tuned my guitars by ear for nearly thirty years, does this mean I can reuse this skill to tune/true my wheels?


 
I've heard some nice tunes played on a bike wheel, so yes!


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## Tom B (29 Dec 2015)

Flying Dodo said:


> Should be repairable. After all, you've got nothing to lose by having a go. Search out some YouTube videos.




View: https://youtu.be/cNxc9RvJ9SY


Decided to edge my bets... Ordered a new wheel and borrowing a truing stand. I am not sure the stand deals with the "bounce" of the wheel as it is a home made jobby.


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## RichardB (29 Dec 2015)

Tom B said:


> View: https://youtu.be/cNxc9RvJ9SY
> 
> 
> Decided to edge my bets... Ordered a new wheel and borrowing a truing stand. I am not sure the stand deals with the "bounce" of the wheel as it is a home made jobby.



A decent stand should be able to measure out-of-round as well as side-to-side, likely just a case of moving the measuring stick thing. However, IME dealing with a flat spot is far harder than a sideways wobble (my experience is motorcycle wheels. not bicycle wheels, but same principles) as the rim will have taken a 'set' with the impact rather than just being vaguely out of line. I would be budgeting for a new rim. However, if the rim ends up being scrap, you can experiment to your heart's content and probably learn a lot about truing a wheel.


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## Poacher (30 Dec 2015)

Tin Pot said:


> So wheel truing and plucking - I've tuned my guitars by ear for nearly thirty years, does this mean I can reuse this skill to tune/true my wheels?


Yes! Prime demonstration here:


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## Tin Pot (30 Dec 2015)

Poacher said:


> Yes! Prime demonstration here:




Heheh. That's where I got the idea from! 

In an earlier scene she uses a tuning fork on the table.


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## GuyBoden (12 May 2016)

I like it, wheel truing by ear seems to improve concentration, similar to a meditation exercise.........


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## Cycleops (1 Dec 2016)

Tin Pot said:


> So wheel truing and plucking - I've tuned my guitars by ear for nearly thirty years, does this mean I can reuse this skill to tune/true my wheels?



Only if you want to play 'Stairway to heaven' on your front wheel.

Be interesting to see someone play an 'air wheel' for a change.


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## dbeattie (9 Jan 2017)

I just got a hold of a truing stand last week. I made a base for it yesterday. So last night I had a go at getting a wobble out the front wheel. Quite pleased with the result. I was less confident about the back wheel because the bike shop man who replaced a spoke for me said he had done his best and there would always be a flat bit on the rim. Anyway I had a go at it and again I'm quite pleased with it. I took the bike for a short ride and it feels much smoother. I've got the brakes working better because the wheels don't wobble now. So I'm chuffed!


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## overmind (17 Sep 2019)

I went on a 2-day mini-tour with my son to the Isle of Wight last Saturday/Sunday. I had a great time. I may post details in the touring part of the forum.

*edit:* (as promised above) https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/isle-of-wight-tour-2019.255129/#post-5798192

On the final day, I was cycling from Wroxall to Newport on the A3020 when I heard a slight ping sound. I stopped fairly quickly as my gut instinct told me a spoke had broken. It had, on the rear non-drive side (right next to the hub in the most-common place).

I managed to get the East Cowes for the ferry return to Southampton with no further issues but I took it fairly gently.

The following day, it was a very straightforward task to replace the spoke and re-true the wheel. It only took about 20 minutes. Looking at the wheel there must be about 6 previous repairs done over the past 2-3 years (I commute to work so it takes a good hammering). It is very satisfying to be able to do a repair like that based on a skill I have acquired from watching YouTube videos and just having-a-go.

In the past, I would have replaced the spoke as best I could and for 2 or more spokes would have written off the wheel (and possibly even replaced the bike). Sometimes I adjusted the brakes to be a bit wider and just lived with the buckles and till it got sufficiently bad to be unrideable.

Well chuffed. 

Bike (Triban 3)


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## Blue Hills (5 Jul 2020)

PpPete said:


> Take it or leave it you say?
> 
> I'll leave it, thanks all the same.
> Any guide to wheel truing or building which includes phrases like " having all spokes at the same tension is less important " is highly suspect.
> ...


Have Just started edging towards wheel tinkering/building. Can I ask how close in percentage terms you try to get your spokes? I ask as the park wheel trueing app/web page seems to think 20 per cent acceptable. But on the other hand have seen some wheelbuilders claim to produce 5 per cent. Which seems very hard to achieve, by the likes of me at least. 
Answers to this question from other folks also welcome.


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## Blue Hills (5 Jul 2020)

John the Monkey said:


> Yep. If you have a spokey type spoke key, mark the side you turn towards to tighten. (Roger Musson recommends a dot in permanent marker).


At least one of my Spokeys is made with a mark already on it.


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## Ajax Bay (5 Jul 2020)

Blue Hills said:


> how close in percentage terms you try to get [the tension in] spokes [on the same side]?


The wheel needs to be true in radius, true in plane: centred between the dropouts. Having achieved that, the spoke tension equality (each side, or both on a non disc front wheel) will be a commentary on the accuracy/quality of the rim. Second check after stress relieving. Achieving congruity (plus or minus a deviation) of spoke tension is not an end in itself. Most rims will have aberrations either near the spoke hole or near the welded/pinned join: and that's fine.
Enjoy the tone of a good pluck for its musical merit: you're not trying to tune a piano.


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## RichardB (7 Jul 2020)

Ajax Bay said:


> The wheel needs to be true in radius, true in plane: centred between the dropouts. Having achieved that, the spoke tension equality (each side, or both on a non disc front wheel) will be a commentary on the accuracy/quality of the rim. Second check after stress relieving. Achieving congruity (plus or minus a deviation) of spoke tension is not an end in itself. Most rims will have aberrations either near the spoke hole or near the welded/pinned join: and that's fine.
> Enjoy the tone of a good pluck for its musical merit: you're not trying to tune a piano.


I have only ever built *motorcycle* wheels, and have only ever *tinkered with* bicycle wheels, so I am a proper amateur and my opinion is probably worthless, but I would second this. I have never had a bicycle wheel with evenly-tensioned spokes. I've had wheels which are true (+/- <1mm) both laterally and vertically, and yet had some spokes which were tight and others almost slack. Played musically, they were like Stockhousen rather than Mozart. Trying to get the tension even (and yes I have tried) has led to the wheel going out of true rather than the reverse. I had assumed the reason was variations in material quality, thickness etc. I've never had a wheel collapse or warp under me, and I am no lightweight, so my wheels must have been at least OK. For me, if you've got the wheel true, then you're done.


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## Ajax Bay (8 Jul 2020)

RichardB said:


> if you've got the wheel true, then you're done.


Well just to add, the tension needs to be round about right generally: no point in having a loose true wheel, and this is especially so for a dished rear wheel's left hand spokes.


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## Blue Hills (8 Jul 2020)

Ajax Bay said:


> Well just to add, the tension needs to be round about right generally: no point in having a loose true wheel, and this is especially so for a dished rear wheel's left hand spokes.


yes, must admit I don't really understand the "if it's true all is well " theory.
For surely a wheel with all the spokes completely loose, ie just laced, will be true but you wouldn't want to ride it?
I am assuming (I'm not techie) that unlaced rims are essentially true to start with.


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## Pumpman (8 Jul 2020)

I’ve read many, but not all, of the posts in this thread and there seem to be a recurring argument about whether the tension of all the spokes should be the same (as any builder of new wheels will probably insist) or whether there will be a wide variation in tension (as experienced re-truers of used wheels have found). I do not believe these ideas are contradictory.
If a new wheel is being built, using a perfectly true rim, then equally tensioned spokes will not change its shape and so it will result in a perfectly true wheel – in theory at least. However, if the wheel has been ridden and its rim is out of true, then equally tensioned spokes will still not change its shape and so it will remain out of true. The “repair” is achieved by using differences in spoke tension to pull the rim back to its original true shape


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## RichardB (8 Jul 2020)

Ajax Bay said:


> Well just to add, the tension needs to be round about right generally: no point in having a loose true wheel, and this is especially so for a dished rear wheel's left hand spokes.



Sure, but there is a big difference between 'about right' and 'all spokes must ring with the same musical note or the wheel is rubbish', which I have heard some people say. I was assuming the spokes weren't actually loose, just that some will be looser than others without the wheel being out of true.



Blue Hills said:


> yes, must admit I don't really understand the "if it's true all is well " theory.
> For surely a wheel with all the spokes completely loose, ie just laced, will be true but you wouldn't want to ride it?
> I am assuming (I'm not techie) that unlaced rims are essentially true to start with.



A rim might be perfectly flat and circular, but you wouldn't call it true. True is when it is laced onto a rim so that it spins on the axle without wobbling either side-to-side or up and down. 'True' applies to a spinning wheel, not its component parts. This may be achieved with all the spokes equally tight, or some might be slacker than others but the wheel still run true; that was really the point I was making.


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## RichardB (8 Jul 2020)

Pumpman said:


> If a new wheel is being built, using a perfectly true rim, then equally tensioned spokes will not change its shape and so it will result in a perfectly true wheel – in theory at least. However, if the wheel has been ridden and its rim is out of true, then equally tensioned spokes will still not change its shape and so it will remain out of true. The “repair” is achieved by using differences in spoke tension to pull the rim back to its original true shape


Good explanation.


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## Ajax Bay (9 Jul 2020)

Pumpman said:


> a recurring argument about whether the tension of all the spokes should be the same (as any builder of new wheels will probably insist)


I think there are plenty of builders of 'new' wheels that don't insist this. But as you say, if a wheel builder uses excellent, true at manufacture rim (assuredly welded rather than pinned) then the tensions will be in a narrow range (ie equal plus or minus not much). Have just seen a DT Swiss instagram post saying:
*dtswiss*
#engineeringperformance at work:⁣
"Spoke tension is the hidden force that makes your wheel durable, provides precise steering and gives you the ability to accelerate.⁣
The art of wheel building is to set the spoke tension as close as possible to the given maximum while keeping the deviation of the tensions between them as low as possible."
They are building with quality rims (of their own quality assured brand) so don't feel the need to mention that the 'art of wheel building' has as a primary requirement (ranked before equal tension and close to max tension) the need to tension the spokes so the wheel is true. With low spoke counts the requirement for accurate true rims before lacing to a hub is of greater importance.


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## Blue Hills (9 Jul 2020)

Yes,my understanding is that getting the tensions close to each other reduces the need for further tinkering/makes the build more stable.
By stable, i stress that i don't mean not going to collapse,but maintaining the build, avoiding spokes changing tension when ridden.
For folks who believe in getting them close, can I ask how close you aim for?
The park tool app/web page seems to condider plus or minus 20 per cent to be acceptable, but it shows results for 5 per cent.
And Spa claims to build to 5 per cent.


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## Ajax Bay (9 Jul 2020)

Blue Hills said:


> my understanding is that getting the tensions close to each other reduces the need for further tinkering/makes the build more stable. . . .
> avoiding spokes changing tension when ridden


Care to share a link to support your understanding? Why would equality of tension reduce the need for tinkering? What do you mean by 'stable'?
For the avoidance of doubt, the tension in spokes varies markedly "when ridden": every revolution the tension will drop maybe 30% as each spoke reaches the 6 o'clock position (eg 1000N down to 700N).
Proper and effective stress relieving (and making sure spokes have no residual twist during the final part of the wheel build) should mean that, apart from the designed tension oscillation (above), spoke tensions at rest will be the same 10,000km later (or much more), on a well-built wheel.
Can't help on your quantative deviation from equality question: sorry.


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## Blue Hills (9 Jul 2020)

Ajax Bay said:


> Care to share a link to support your understanding? Why would equality of tension reduce the need for tinkering? What do you mean by 'stable'?
> For the avoidance of doubt, the tension in spokes varies markedly "when ridden": every revolution the tension will drop maybe 30% as each spoke reaches the 6 o'clock position (eg 1000N down to 700N).
> Proper and effective stress relieving (and making sure spokes have no residual twist during the final part of the wheel build should mean that, apart from the designed tension oscillation (above), spoke tensions at rest will be the same 10,000km later (or much more), on a well-built wheel.
> Can't help on your quantative deviation from equality question: sorry.


i thought i explained what I meant by stable (you chopped it out of my quote).
Will try to get back with some sort of authority for my understanding - ie someone who builds wheels.
So far I have just tinkered/true-ed.


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## Blue Hills (9 Jul 2020)

Here, from Roger Musson.
He's talking about tensionometers.
"Some people use a tensiometer to check that the spokes in the wheel have equal tension, I prefer to pluck the spokes."

which implies I think that he tries to get the spoke tensions kinda equal.


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## Ajax Bay (10 Jul 2020)

If you've built a wheel and, on checking, the wheel (rim) is pleasantly circular with no high or low points, and the wheel is true (or good enough) and you've stress relieved and ensured no spoke twists remain . . . 
BUT the tensions are not equal(ish), how do you then go about getting the tensions closer to equal yet keep the wheel circular and true?
And why? Provided the spokes are well tensioned Ie the opposite of loose), what is the jeopardy of running a wheel with unequal tensioned spokes?
NB On one side of the wheel - obviously there'll be a difference from one set one side to the other set the other side on a dished wheel.


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## Blue Hills (10 Jul 2020)

Ajax Bay said:


> If you've built a wheel and, on checking, the wheel (rim) is pleasantly circular with no high or low points, and the wheel is true (or good enough) and you've stress relieved and ensured no spoke twists remain . . .
> BUT the tensions are not equal(ish), how do you then go about getting the tensions closer to equal yet keep the wheel circular and true?
> And why? Provided the spokes are well tensioned Ie the opposite of loose), what is the jeopardy of running a wheel with unequal tensioned spokes?
> NB On one side of the wheel - obviously there'll be a difference from one set one side to the other set the other side on a dished wheel.


Can't really argue with that.


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## RichardB (10 Jul 2020)

Ajax Bay said:


> If you've built a wheel and, on checking, the wheel (rim) is pleasantly circular with no high or low points, and the wheel is true (or good enough) and you've stress relieved and ensured no spoke twists remain . . .
> BUT the tensions are not equal(ish), how do you then go about getting the tensions closer to equal yet keep the wheel circular and true?


Good question. I have had several wheels where some spokes have gone ping and others plunk, and yet have been acceptably true. When I have diligently gone round the looser spokes trying to get the tension even, the result has been to start to push the rim out of true, so I learned to leave well alone.


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## mpemburn (16 Dec 2021)

Excellent compendium! I have had little call to true wheels until a recent crash. Glad I had both a decent spoke wrench (a Park) and a bladed spoke holder. Wish I'd known the WD-40 trick, but the truing went well nonetheless. 

BTW: If you want nice, rock-solid alloy wheels for a decent price, I highly recommend Fulcrum Racing 5's. 1650 grams for the pair. I paid about $230 for them a couple of years ago.


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## Rooster1 (29 Nov 2022)

I've managed to true a few wheels now, but at the weekend I made a wheel WORSE. I will rectify my bad workmanship!


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