# Surly Ogre or Long Haul Trucker for my on/off road tourer?



## Mad Hatter (31 Jul 2013)

I am sure I will get lots of different opinions on this, but I will start with what I am looking to get out of touring and what I would like me build to consist of. 

Me:
I am 5'10, 32 inside leg and 70kg. 

My ideal touring type: 
I have not really toured, but done a lot of road and off road biking. This is going to be me and my partner. To start with we would like to do tours around the UK, on road and also some bridle ways, coast paths etc. Then in a year or 2 start to do tours into Europe. At a later date, we would possibly like to cycle in places like Mongolia or India etc ( more tracks than road we assume).

What I would like my build to consist off:
As well as the touring, I also need this bike to be my everyday bike. I do not have a car and cycle everywhere in Cambridge to see clients and also sometimes use a trailer to carry my gardening tools etc. 

1: I prefer the feel of straight bars over drop bars. So I was thinking off Surly Torsion Bars. 
2: I like the idea of 29" inch wheels which are wide for more stability and strength and with travel of the 700c.
3: I would like front suspension forks, which I can also lock out.
4: Disc brakes would be great for stopping in the wet with load and also not thinning my rims. 
5: A speed hub, either a Alfine 8 or 11, or Rohloff hub. I do not know if the Alfine would be good enough and the 8 or 11, or if I should try and save for the Rohloff hub. 

This is ideally what I would like, but not set in stone. Advice from you people would be great. I am not technically minded, but I want to build the bike, so in the future if we have problems while touring, I have an idea how to fix it. 

Thanks in advance

Tim


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## yello (1 Aug 2013)

Not heard of the Ogre so I'll have to google it. The LHT, on the other hand, is almost the 'go to' bike for such touring. I don't think I've ever read a bad word written about it. But I suspect you knew that already!

I've a phobia about hub gears - and I know the Rohloff is purported to be bomb proof. I'm just not sure just how road-fixable/fettle-able they are in the event of problems. I guess I'm old school though.

Nice idea to self-build too. A valuable learning process.


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## Mad Hatter (1 Aug 2013)

Thanks Yello for the comments. 

I know the LHT is a great bike, but I normally see it with drop bars, which I do not want. Also the frame is a bit bulkier on the Ogre and would hopefully take suspension forks ( all though this might throw out the geometry ). I am really looking for advice on the suspension thing, i know a few people have done it. Also when I pull my trailer about for work across pot gravel and pot holes etc, I feel the Ogre would be better suited. Although I have not sat on an Ogre, as no dealers have them made up, well not local to me. 

The speed hubs seem very good, and I hear good reviews from them. I like the idea you can change gears with out moving. If you had to stop suddenly, you can change your gear to move off in an easy gear. Well I could do this with the Alfine I tried.


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## Bodhbh (1 Aug 2013)

I believe the Ogre has suspension corrected rigid forks, so you can swap in your own suss forks if you want. I really don't think suspension is needed even for off-road touring tho. The Ogre has pretty huge tyre clearances (2.7" or something?) you can get plenty of suspension if needed from the fat tyres. From your wish list, it sounds like you've made up you're mind on the Ogre already.


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## frank9755 (1 Aug 2013)

I'd definitely go for 700c wheels - roll better off road.
Personally, I wouldn't bother with suspension forks if you are going to use it as your main transport. Off-road with rigid forks is fun! 
I would also ditch the hub gear for off-road stuff.


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## Ticktockmy (1 Aug 2013)

Hi Tim,
In the last 20 years I have been building my touring bikes to a spec to suit my own needs. Current spec is as follows:
I built my Mountain bike up to so suit my own requirements for pottering around on the trails and byways and also for touring:
Charge Duster 2010 frame, (has bigger diameter tubes than the Duster 2011 frame onwards)
RockShox Recon Silver TK Solo Air 100mm Suspension Fork
Hope Tech X2 Disc Brake front and rear.
Truvativ Noir XC 3.3 Team Triple Chainset.( got it for £90 so could not miss such a good bargain)
Shimano XT M770 Derailleur and leavers front and rear..
Race Face Evolve MTB Handlebar
Charge Spoon saddle
Mavic Crossride XC717 front wheeL
Halo SAS Pro 26 Inch Rear Mtb Wheel (heavy wheel but great for when I am touring off road fully laden)
Old man mountain Sherpa racks on the front and rear.
Current tyres are Schwalbe Marathon XR's for touring otherwise when not set up for touring: I use Panaracer Fire XC Pro's
regarding 29 inch wheels, if you intend to cycle only in UK and Europe I would say they are the way to go, however if you intend to go out into the big world to Asia/Africa then you need to check you can get replacement parts, rims and spokes etc, however I guess give it a few more years and the 29" wheel will get there, that if 29" is not anything more than a passing phase.
Using a MTb frame for touring can have some issues, as the frame geometry can mean your heels will rub on the panniers.


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## yello (1 Aug 2013)

Ticktockmy said:


> Using a MTb frame for touring can have some issues, as the frame geometry can mean your heels will rub on the panniers.


 
Yep. I have that, um, 'issue'. Luckily, I have enough adjustment on the panniers (Ortleibs) to move them back just enough to give me clearance. Just as well I don't have bigger feet.

I too built up my old hardtail as a tourer, changing the suspension fork for a rigid one. I kept the Shimano XT 8sp gear because it's seemingly bullet proof (that's gone and done it!). I don't want anything to 'trick' on it because of the replacement parts issue mentioned. If I was touring in exotic far flung places then I'd be very strict on that rule but as I only do Europe then pretty much any bike shop could sort me out if necessary.


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## Mad Hatter (1 Aug 2013)

Thanks guys for the help. 

Ticktockmy, thanks for giving me your build info, helpful to see how others do it. 

Regarding the 29" wheels the thing is we will not be travelling in far out places yet or for a few years, so much more to see. By then, like you said, I hope they are more available. Unless it is a fad, which I think it will not be. As Frank9755 says, it is good to get the roll of the 700c off road, or 29" in my case. 

The geometry of the Ogre apparently is good for touring ( not sure about with suspension forks ). I use my 26" in wheel mtb every day with Ortlieb Panniers and it is great. 

It would be good for some feed back on the speed hubs, as I hear they are really strong, and less things dangling off the bike ( well part from me )! Also if I get them, it will be a while to I go far flung places as I said, so by then I would know if they are reliable. 

Also how do I know what 29" frame size to go for? My stats are in the first post. 

Thanks


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## andym (1 Aug 2013)

On-One 456 or Inbred. Does everything you want. Works perfectly as a bike for touring. Don't know how the price compares with the Surly but very good value for money.


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## Mad Hatter (1 Aug 2013)

andym said:


> On-One 456 or Inbred. Does everything you want. Works perfectly as a bike for touring. Don't know how the price compares with the Surly but very good value for money.



Hi Andym, thanks for the info, I just looked at the On-One 456, I do like it, also it is British made which I like the idea of. My queries with it are, is the geometry good enough for touring ( being in the saddle all day )? Also it looks like it has not lugs for back racks, only one bottle holder set of lugs also. I assume this can all be got around. 

Thanks


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## lulubel (2 Aug 2013)

I don't think the On-One bikes are kitted out for carrying stuff the way Surly's are. I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but Surly revamped the Troll a while back. So many people were using them for touring that they changed the frame a little to make it even more touring friendly. As far as I'm aware, the Ogre is simply the 29" version of the Troll, and it has all the same lugs for racks, bottle holders, etc, as well as having more gearing options than most people would ever consider.

At 5ft2, an Ogre would be too big for me, but my first choice if I was looking for a tourer for on/off-road, that would also give me the option to play on some more serious trails, would be the Troll. In fact, if I can ever afford it - a bit broke at the moment - I'll probably buy a Troll frame and swap all the parts from my existing MTB onto it. That would give me a MTB that's also a go-anywhere tourer.

I actually own a Surly Crosscheck, which started out life close to a pure road bike, but is gradually evolving into more of a light tourer. I built it myself, with no prior experience beyond fixing a puncture. It was a very rewarding experience, and it's left me with a bike that I trust totally, and feel confident to go anywhere on because I know I can maintain it and keep it going.

To work out what frame size you need, you can take measurements from a bike that fits you well, and compare them with the measurements on the manufacturer's site. The most important measurements from a sizing point of view are the effective top tube (measured horizontally between head tube and seat post) and stand over.


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## andym (2 Aug 2013)

Mad Hatter said:


> Hi Andym, thanks for the info, I just looked at the On-One 456, I do like it, also it is British made which I like the idea of. My queries with it are, is the geometry good enough for touring ( being in the saddle all day )? Also it looks like it has not lugs for back racks, only one bottle holder set of lugs also. I assume this can all be got around.
> 
> Thanks




Mine has rack mounts. The pictures on their website I looked at show rack mounts. If you're interested just email them to check.

Bear in mind that they are receiving shipments over the summer. The website only seems to show a limited range - for example I didn't see a slot dropout version for hub-geared bikes. Again it's worth dropping them a line to check what frames are due in.

I think it is comfortable - I'm on tour five months of the year. It has quite a long top tube - so a more stretched-out feel which may or may not be to your taste.

Nope - only one set of bottle cage bosses. This is a disadvantage, when I had mine re-powdercoated I had a framemaker put extra bosses on, but there are other aftermarket options.

The On-Ones are designed in Yorkshire but made in Taiwan (like the Surlys - SFAIK).


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## lulubel (2 Aug 2013)

andym said:


> The On-Ones are designed in Yorkshire but made in Taiwan (like the Surlys - SFAIK).


 
Yes, Surly's frames are also made in Taiwan.

Out of interest, how do you find the 456 handles at the front end as a tourer? I notice the head angle is fairly slack compared to the MTB I ride (and also to Surly's offerings), and I've heard this can make the front a bit wallowy on climbs, although much more capable on descents. This is only what I've heard, though, since I don't have any experience of anything other than XC race type frames, with steep head angles.

I'm also not knocking On One at all. I looked at their frames when I was considering building my own steel MTB (before I decided I didn't have enough MTB experience to build from scratch) and was very tempted by the 26" Inbred. And I have their Midge bars on my Crosscheck, and I'm totally in love with them. It's just that I'm also totally in love with my Surly frame! (I notice On One aren't listing any stock of their steel 456 frames at the moment. Presumably they're waiting for stock to come in.)

It also occurs to me that lack of cage mounting points on a tourer isn't such an issue, as long as you have room in your luggage to carry extra water to top up your bottle as needed.


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## Mad Hatter (2 Aug 2013)

lulubel said:


> At 5ft2, an Ogre would be too big for me, but my first choice if I was looking for a tourer for on/off-road, that would also give me the option to play on some more serious trails, would be the Troll.



Hi Lulubel,

Thanks for the advice. I am thinking Surly is the way forward. I have ridden on a Troll and liked it. Although the owner did say, he wish he had bought the Ogre, but it came out a year after he bought his Troll. I am 5,10, so think the Ogre will be fine. Just need to work out what frame size as I only have a couple of 26" MTB's to compare. 

Building it myself will be rewarding as you say, great to learn the knowledge. 

Shame everything is either built in Taiwan or China, we need to start building again in the UK. I would be happy to pay that little bit more to support my fellow Brits and great craftsmen ship.


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## andym (2 Aug 2013)

Mad Hatter said:


> Shame everything is either built in Taiwan or China, we need to start building again in the UK. I would be happy to pay that little bit more to support my fellow Brits and great craftsmen ship.



I'm happy to help people put food on the table - wherever they happen to live.


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## Bodhbh (4 Aug 2013)

andym said:


> It has quite a long top tube - so a more stretched-out feel which may or may not be to your taste....Nope - only one set of bottle cage bosses. This is a disadvantage, when I had mine re-powdercoated I had a framemaker put extra bosses on, but there are other aftermarket options.


 
Yeah, I used an 18" 456 frame to replace a 19" Rockhopper frame that snapped. The front triangle is still a good inch longer on the 456. Oh well, the geometry was on the website, my bad I should have checked. I think the frame was 90quid off eBay, 50 quid for a couple of sets of extra bottle mounts + a single mount for a mudguard at the top of the seat stays, 35quid for powdercaoting.



lulubel said:


> Out of interest, how do you find the 456 handles at the front end as a tourer? I notice the head angle is fairly slack compared to the MTB I ride (and also to Surly's offerings), and I've heard this can make the front a bit wallowy on climbs, although much more capable on descents. This is only what I've heard, though, since I don't have any experience of anything other than XC race type frames, with steep head angles.


 
Not that I have much undstanding of this sort of thing, but reading their website they've twinked the 456 a fair bit over the years and head angle has slackened only recently. It would depend which version you have, and also what forks you're sticking up front. Not doing much touring this summer, I've had a play sticking all sorts up front and ended up sticking with 29er front wheel in the Orange P8 steel forks I was using in the beginning. Not saying it's a great idea for a touring bike in general, but as said above the frame was too long and it puts the bars up and back a bit and the steering seems a bit more relaxed. Lot more fun to ride anyhow.



Mad Hatter said:


> Thanks for the advice. I am thinking Surly is the way forward. I have ridden on a Troll and liked it. Although the owner did say, he wish he had bought the Ogre, but it came out a year after he bought his Troll. I am 5,10, so think the Ogre will be fine. Just need to work out what frame size as I only have a couple of 26" MTB's to compare.


 
For the sake of the couple of hundred quid saved by doing up an old 456 frame I would probably do the same, if I had the choice again. You can do something similar with one of the On-Ones frames, but you'll probably want to sort the mount situation out and if you're thinking of putting on any front racks, the forks that come with the Surly Orge/Troll frame are already perfect. You'd have to buy something similar then anyhow or get a rack that's good for forks with no mounts.


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## Gravity Aided (5 Aug 2013)

I've seen a fellow at work with an Ogre, but he's always going another direction on a busy stretch of road, so I can't stop (a company bus) and ask him about it, but from the grin on his face I'd say he enjoys it. Looks like a fun, well made bicycle with all the bits and bobs one expects from a tourer.


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## JohnClimber (10 Aug 2013)

Mad Hatter, have you heard of the up coming Surly ECR?

http://www.pedalingnowhere.com/gear/surly-ecr-adventure-bikes/#.UgaXi31wbrc

Our a 2 or 3 months for frame only early 2014 for the full build.

It's another bike on my WANT list


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## sparkyman (11 Aug 2013)

I like my 2010 Surly, fitted butterfly bars and bolt on aero bars (for when I need to get out of the wind or just go faster) I big apple tyres from Schwalbe 28*2.00 still had room for full guards. most comfy bike I have ridden.

Sparkyman


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## Crankarm (24 Oct 2013)

The Genesis Croix de Fer 2014 is a very attractive option as an everyday touring bike. All the bosses for mounting racks at both ends, bottle cages and disc brakes with rear caliper inboard for easy mounting of a rack. 10 spd with drop bars. 700x35c tyres £1,149.00

http://www.genesisbikes.co.uk/bikes/adventure/multi-sport/croix-de-fer


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## Brains (25 Oct 2013)

have you looked at a Thorn nomad or Thorn EXP ? they sound like exactly the bike you are after


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