# Close Enough ?



## Rooster1 (18 Apr 2018)

Thoughts on this please, this morning


View: https://youtu.be/GASnYaEx1-s


----------



## glasgowcyclist (18 Apr 2018)

Close enough to report, yes.


----------



## I like Skol (18 Apr 2018)

Far too close.


----------



## derrick (18 Apr 2018)

Another dick in a 4x4.


----------



## Drago (18 Apr 2018)

Very close by the look of things.


----------



## dave r (18 Apr 2018)

Too close.


----------



## Milkfloat (18 Apr 2018)

1.) I don't like your gloves
2.) Please trim the excess on your cable tie
3.) Yes, very close.

I suspect if you did report it and anyone even bothered to look at the video they might suggest that at the place you were passed you might have pulled over to the left towards the rough ground to let the driver pass. Personally, depending on my mood and how I judge the driver I would have done that or taken primary. You are probably dammed if you do and dammed if you don't.


----------



## Rooster1 (18 Apr 2018)

OK. 

The gloves are vile - I hate them too,
The cable ties need to go.
Yes, I could have pulled over onto the shingle and tried not to fall off.

I "spoke" to the driver after and vented my annoyance. She said she was a cyclist, she apologized but did not see what she did wrong. 

I think my gentle words will hopefully stick and there wont be a next time.

I will keep the video on file and if it happens again I will report it.


----------



## I like Skol (18 Apr 2018)

You need to show her the video, then she may see your point of view....


----------



## glasgowcyclist (18 Apr 2018)

I like Skol said:


> You need to show her the video, then she may see your point of view....




Doubt it.

Get her to swap places though and do the same overtake...


----------



## mjr (18 Apr 2018)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Doubt it.
> 
> Get her to swap places though and do the same overtake...


Successfully or not? Ooops splat crunch... 

Far too close, seemed to have waited for a single-4x4-width bit, plus didn't exactly pull away quickly so what was the flaming hurry to squeeze past then instead of wait? Pointless as well as reckless.


----------



## boydj (18 Apr 2018)

I cycle roads like that fairly often. I would have made it possible for the 4x4 to pass at the first opportunity, which was probably about where you were passed anyway. All it would have taken was to slow slightly and pull over into the gravelly area for a second or two, which would have cost you very little - or were you going for a Strava segment? Some eye contact and maybe a signal, while holding primary, to let them know that you knew they were there and that you would pull over as soon as possible might have saved the unpleasantness.

Sharing the roads is a two-way thing and if you drove on single-track roads you would understand that you don't hold up faster vehicles unnecessarily - in a car or on a bike. And the pass was too close.


----------



## mjr (18 Apr 2018)

boydj said:


> All it would have taken was to slow slightly and pull over into the gravelly area for a second or two, which would have cost you very little - or were you going for a Strava segment?


I may have pulled over on my Dutch bike but I don't think I'd've risked it on my road bike because it looked deep.



boydj said:


> Sharing the roads is a two-way thing and if you drove on single-track roads you would understand that you don't hold up faster vehicles unnecessarily - in a car or on a bike. And the pass was too close.


It wasn't unnecessarily and speed doesn't give people priority, as you'd know if you drove on single track roads.


----------



## Roadhump (18 Apr 2018)

mjr said:


> Successfully or not? Ooops splat crunch...
> 
> Far too close, seemed to have waited for a single-4x4-width bit, plus didn't exactly pull away quickly so *what was the flaming hurry to squeeze past then instead of wait*? Pointless as well as reckless.



There seems to be a mindset, almost a cultural assumption, amongst some motorists in this country that bikes are just something to get past at the earliest opportunity, rather than when safe. Many a time, I am approaching the rear of a line of cars waiting at a junction, and despite being in Primary, a car will often still come up behind and nip out, past and in front of me with only a few feet to spare, just to get to wait one place in front of me at the back of the queue. Quite often, I am able to filter past them anyway, and give the driver a "you muppet" look as I do so.

The driver in the video, perhaps knowing the road ahead and anticipating being behind a slower moving road user for some distance, seems to take the opportunity of a short stretch of wider space, to pass the bike, and has to cut in quickly due to the road quickly narrowing again. It does look far too close. 

I will try to let faster vehicles pass on narrow roads, but only when I am happy it is safe to do so. I might have done there, but without actually being there and able to judge the gravel surface "in the flesh" so to speak, and being able to decide if my bike was suitable to cope with it, I couldn't say for certain if I would have done.


----------



## si_c (19 Apr 2018)

That's not just too close, it's a dangerous pass - report it. You've said that she didn't understand what she had done wrong, so I wouldn't hold out any hope that she's learnt anything from the encounter.


----------



## LCpl Boiled Egg (19 Apr 2018)

Rooster1 said:


> I "spoke" to the driver after and vented my annoyance. She said she was a cyclist, she apologized but did not see what she did wrong.
> 
> I think my gentle words will hopefully stick and there wont be a next time.
> 
> I will keep the video on file and if it happens again I will report it.



She's not a cyclist if she doesn't understand what she did wrong. You would have only have had to wobble at the wrong time and that would have been it. Please report her before she hits someone else.


----------



## boydj (19 Apr 2018)

mjr said:


> .....................................
> 
> It wasn't unnecessarily and speed doesn't give people priority, as you'd know if you drove on single track roads.



It was absolutely unnecessary - for the sake of lifting off for a second or two the 4x4 could have been past.

Up here in the frozen north I fairly regularly drive and ride on single-track roads. They have passing places at regular intervals and it it is the norm for slower vehicles to pull in if they are holding up traffic behind them - at least for local users of these roads (the tourists haven't always got the message).

On a more general point it seems to me to be pretty selfish and inconsiderate to expect motors to sit behind a cyclist on a single-track road when it would be easy and cost the cyclist very little to allow them to pass. This is a completely different situation to urban commuting where a cyclist is often faster from A to B than a motorist and overtakes are frequently pointless.


----------



## Tizme (20 Apr 2018)

There are passing places and passing places, a proper tarmac layby/pull-in is fair enough, but that looked like loose gravel/mud to me, why should a cyclist run the risk of going over just to let an impatient driver get by? Change the bike for a tractor and the speeds would probably have been fairly similar on such a narrow lane and I would say, judging from my experience living in the countryside, the chances of the tractor pulling over would have been minimal.

Why would the cyclists journey not have been as "important" as the car drivers? I regularly commuted on country lanes, so should I pull over to allow a driver to get passed because he hasn't allowed sufficient time to get to where he has to be, meanwhile I run the risk of being late, because I have pulled over a dozen times?

I've lost count of the number of close passes I've been subjected to, just to see the occupants going into the supermarket car park, it really was important to get in front of the cyclist!


----------



## Drago (20 Apr 2018)

Similarly, why should a cyclist not pull over simply because the tractors odds of doing so are 'minimal'? You use the behaviour of one lot of road users to argue against the behaviour of another - life doesn't work like that. You either ride/drive safely and obey the rules and conventions of the road, or you dont . we can't morally pick and choose which we'd like.


----------



## I like Skol (20 Apr 2018)

Is it just me or have i got a long-standing misunderstanding of the purpose of a 'passing place'?

I thought they were intended as a point where you could 'get past' oncoming traffic on a single track road. Not to be used as an extremely short overtaking lane?


----------



## Mr Celine (21 Apr 2018)

I like Skol said:


> Is it just me or have i got a long-standing misunderstanding of the purpose of a 'passing place'?
> 
> I thought they were intended as a point where you could 'get past' oncoming traffic on a single track road. Not to be used as an extremely short overtaking lane?


Unfortunately it isn't just you, such misunderstandings seem common despite road signs, the highway code (section 155) and even  leaflets for tourists.


----------



## boydj (21 Apr 2018)

I like Skol said:


> Is it just me or have i got a long-standing misunderstanding of the purpose of a 'passing place'?
> 
> I thought they were intended as a point where you could 'get past' oncoming traffic on a single track road. Not to be used as an extremely short overtaking lane?



Passing places are often used by bikes, tractors, cars towing caravans etc to allow faster vehicles to pass. On busier single-track roads tail-backs will build up behind slow-moving vehicles, which are expected to pull over to allow traffic behind them to clear. This is an increasing problem in the likes of the 'Northern 500' which has a lot of single-track and a lot of tourists that don't understand the protocol, to the annoyance of locals trying to go about their business rather than take in the scenery.


----------



## mjr (21 Apr 2018)

boydj said:


> It was absolutely unnecessary - for the sake of lifting off for a second or two the 4x4 could have been past.


I don't think the road was wide enough for a safe overtake if the cyclist remained on the tarmac.



> Up here in the frozen north I fairly regularly drive and ride on single-track roads. They have passing places at regular intervals and it it […]


That's lovely and we have passing places on the narrow roads in the fens too, but that was a gravel field entrance, not a passing place.


----------



## boydj (21 Apr 2018)

mjr said:


> I don't think the road was wide enough for a safe overtake if the cyclist remained on the tarmac.
> 
> 
> That's lovely and we have passing places on the narrow roads in the fens too, but that was a gravel field entrance, not a passing place.



Unless he's on racing silk tubs, I don't see a problem with a little bit of gravel. It looks fairly solid, if a bit rough. Are the conventions for single-track roads in the fens different from those in the highlands?


----------



## Apollonius (22 Apr 2018)

Personally, I would have taken the first opportunity to let the car past. Not in my interests to have it behind me.


----------



## Will Spin (22 Apr 2018)

I cycle a lot on roads like this. If I have a car behind I will cycle in a strong primary position until I see it is safe for me to pull over and let them past, this seems to avoid close passes. I am conscious of the fact that most driver's patience runs out after about 20 secs though!


----------



## mjr (22 Apr 2018)

Will Spin said:


> I cycle a lot on roads like this. If I have a car behind I will cycle in a strong primary position until I see it is safe for me to pull over and let them past, this seems to avoid close passes. I am conscious of the fact that most driver's patience runs out after about 20 secs though!


Like the dingbat today who seemed completely oblivious as to why I might be in primary position going into a blind right hander with a junction beyond it, whirred past shouting and then came face to face with another motorist...


----------



## classic33 (22 Apr 2018)

boydj said:


> It was absolutely unnecessary - for the sake of lifting off for a second or two the 4x4 could have been past.
> 
> Up here in the frozen north I fairly regularly drive and ride on single-track roads. They have passing places at regular intervals and *it it is the norm for slower vehicles to pull in if they are holding up traffic behind them* - at least for local users of these roads (the tourists haven't always got the message).
> 
> On a more general point it seems to me to be pretty selfish and inconsiderate to expect motors to sit behind a cyclist on a single-track road when it would be easy and cost the cyclist very little to allow them to pass. This is a completely different situation to urban commuting where a cyclist is often faster from A to B than a motorist and overtakes are frequently pointless.


Using that logic, can I expect the four wheel drive tractor, travelling slower than me(holding me up) to get out of my way. Often they're aware I'm there, just behind them. Often it can be head on, I'm travelling downhill, they're headed uphill.


----------



## Roadhump (23 Apr 2018)

mjr said:


> Like the dingbat today who seemed completely oblivious as to why I might be in primary position going into a blind right hander with a junction beyond it, whirred past shouting and then came face to face with another motorist...


It might be interesting to have a thread about the names we have been called and things that have been shouted at us as a result of riding in Primary Position - would certainly keep the mods busy


----------



## Randy Butternubs (23 Apr 2018)

Tizme said:


> There are passing places and passing places, a proper tarmac layby/pull-in is fair enough, but that looked like loose gravel/mud to me, why should a cyclist run the risk of going over just to let an impatient driver get by?



This.

I used to pull over to the side of country lanes to let drivers pass easily and had a few scruttock-clenching moments sliding on the muddy shoulder. The last time, I half-fell off and bent my front wheel. I don't do that anymore. The last place you want to fall off is on a very narrow road with a vehicle behind that is in the process of overtaking. Some surfaces are ok but even a thin layer of mud can be very dangerous for a two-wheel vehicle without offroad tyres.

The question of whether the OP/cyclists in general should pull over on narrow lanes is a massive red herring though. If someone decides to slalom infront of you, blocking the whole lane while gurning smugly over their shoulder and giving you the finger you might reasonably be a bit annoyed. It is not reasonable however to risk their life by overtaking within inches.

I do help cars past when I easily and safely can - that's just common courtesy. It is not an act I'm required to perform in exchange for my saftey.


----------



## boydj (23 Apr 2018)

classic33 said:


> Using that logic, can I expect the four wheel drive tractor, travelling slower than me(holding me up) to get out of my way. Often they're aware I'm there, just behind them. Often it can be head on, I'm travelling downhill, they're headed uphill.



That's what passing places are for, and, yes, it does happen on the single-track roads of northern Scotland.


----------



## classic33 (23 Apr 2018)

boydj said:


> That's what passing places are for, and, yes, it does happen on the single-track roads of northern Scotland.


Can I expect them to do that though, for a cyclist.

Edited to add "that" being getting out of my way because they're using a slower moving vehicle than I am.


----------



## boydj (23 Apr 2018)

Yes. Why not? I'm assuming you're talking about oncoming vehicles. It depends where the nearest passing place is and who is going to reach it first. 

What you need to remember is that the locals using these roads are well accustomed to these situations. There's on particular route I do regularly in the summer with about ten miles of single-track and I've never had a problem with oncoming cars or in letting cars overtake.


----------



## I like Skol (23 Apr 2018)

@boydj You are spectacularly missing the point!

Yes, I am all for co-operation and consideration with and towards other road users, but we are talking about motorists (I will not call them drivers because they clearly do not know how to drive) pushing past vulnerable road users inappropriately and downright dangerously.

I too will happily pull over and allow other road users to pass. I will do this when it is safe and convenient, and on a road where there may be more than 1 vehicle behind me I might wait a short distance until I can allow a bunch to pass me all in one go (as was likely in the case in the OP's vid as there was more than one car waiting at the junction he passed). I will not stop with unreasonable frequency to allow every car that catches me to pass me straight away just to save them a few seconds and hinder my journey by many times that.

I have watched the OP's vid multiple times in case I am missing some subtle nuance that @boydj might be seeing, but if it is there I cannot for the life of me spot it! @Rooster1 seems to be moving on at a fair old pace so the motorist cannot fairly argue that they were being severely delayed. Even after the dangerous pass, the vehicle does not speed off into the distance. It was without doubt a selfish, dangerous, inconsiderate and unnecessary pass that achieved very little except risking the cyclist's safety.


boydj said:


> It was absolutely unnecessary - for the sake of lifting off for a second or two the 4x4 could have been past.
> 
> Up here in the frozen north I fairly regularly drive and ride on single-track roads. They have passing places at regular intervals and it it is the norm for slower vehicles to pull in if they are holding up traffic behind them - at least for local users of these roads (the tourists haven't always got the message).
> 
> On a more general point it seems to me to be pretty selfish and inconsiderate to expect motors to sit behind a cyclist on a single-track road when it would be easy and cost the cyclist very little to allow them to pass. This is a completely different situation to urban commuting where a cyclist is often faster from A to B than a motorist and overtakes are frequently pointless.


 You seem to be condoning the motorist's actions and laying all blame for the dangerous pass on the cyclist.


----------



## boydj (24 Apr 2018)

I like Skol said:


> @boydj You are spectacularly missing the point!
> 
> Blah, blah, blah......................
> 
> .....



I said in my first post that the pass was too close. Clearly an impatient driver.

My point was that on single-track roads there are expectations and conventions aimed at preventing unnecessary tailbacks. Such a road is not one that a cyclist should be trying for strava KOMs on because of the need to interact with other users of the road. Users of these roads have to do so in a spirit of cooperation. In this instance the cyclist could have eased off slightly and moved slightly left and the 4x4 would have been past with no problems.


----------



## boydj (24 Apr 2018)

I like Skol said:


> @boydj You are spectacularly missing the point!
> 
> .................................
> 
> This post is inexcusable. You seem to be condoning the motorist's actions and laying all blame for the dangerous pass on the cyclist.



I am certainly not condoning the motorist, but nobody else seems to be critical of the cyclist as if he's doing nothing wrong, when he's certainly not living up to the ethos of using single-track roads.


----------



## Tizme (24 Apr 2018)

On my bike I'm not allowed on Motorways, most dual-carriageways can be suicidal, A roads can, at times, be very unpleasant, it now appears I can use B and single-track roads as long as I don't get in the way and show proper deference to mechanically propelled vehicles, so where is the road sharing I keep hearing we should be doing?

A few years ago a bridge on a local A road was closed for strengthening, the diversion took vehicles on a 2 mile detour, but there was a single track road that cut across and only added half a mile to the detour. The road was usually under 5cms of compacted mud from the tractor that regularly used it to access the fields. There were no passing places, other than the gates to the fields, yet I constantly had drivers attempting to force me off the road and into the hedge before I could even get to a gateway. On one occasion an impatient 4x4 driver climbed the verge (around 30cms high) and overtook me, ignoring the fact that this put his roof inches from my head, or that there was a gateway less than 50 metres ahead! On another occasion I had a driver (another 4x4) refuse to pull over to let me pass, ignoring the gateway on his side on the track. I then pointed out to him that although I could still get passed by switching sides of the road, the car behind had no-where to go!


----------



## boydj (24 Apr 2018)

Tizme said:


> On my bike I'm not allowed on Motorways, most dual-carriageways can be suicidal, A roads can, at times, be very unpleasant, it now appears I can use B and single-track roads as long as I don't get in the way and show proper deference to mechanically propelled vehicles, so where is the road sharing I keep hearing we should be doing?
> 
> ....



What I am saying is that slower vehicles of any description - motorised or not - are expected to not allow a build-up of traffic behind them. On the single-track roads of the highlands this seems to work most of the time. Cooperation and consideration are required from all.

In the OP it would have cost the cyclist only a second or so to facilitate an overtake from the 4x4, so he was in the wrong, just as it was absolutely wrong for driver of the 4x4 to bully his/her way past.

(Edited for grammar)


----------



## Tail End Charlie (24 Apr 2018)

I like Skol said:


> @boydj[/USER
> 
> This post is inexcusable. You seem to be condoning the motorist's actions and laying all blame for the dangerous pass on the cyclist.



That's uncalled for. He/she has an opinion and has articulated it well. I don't see any evidence of condoning the driver's actions.


----------



## mjr (24 Apr 2018)

boydj said:


> In the OP it would have cost the cyclist only *risking a broken arm* or so to facilitate an overtake from the 4x4, so he was in the wrong, just as it was absolutely wrong for driver of the 4x4 to bully his/her way past.


FTFY, given how well road bikes generally fare in gravel pits.


----------



## boydj (25 Apr 2018)

mjr said:


> FTFY, given how well road bikes generally fare in gravel pits.



Exaggeration doesn't help your case.


----------



## mjr (25 Apr 2018)

boydj said:


> Exaggeration doesn't help your case.


Posts the person comparing a short country lane to the Highlands!


----------



## kingrollo (26 Apr 2018)

This should settle the argument - You need to report it pretty much straight way - the police have 14 days to get a notification to the driver - really you should get in the very next day. My local force will take no action if the they receive the footage more than 7 days after the event


----------



## Rooster1 (26 Apr 2018)

I am not going to pursue it. I had a word with the driver and was very forceful in my view that it was a totally unacceptable close pass.
The driver parks in the same place every day so should I need to remind the driver again I will.

thanks all


----------

