# Eurostar make cycle carriage difficult



## numbnuts (14 Oct 2015)

*Mod note: two existing threads have been combined.*

Just found this
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeands...r-plan-to-make-cyclists-dismantle-their-bikes


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## Subotai72 (14 Oct 2015)

Just saw this in response

http://road.cc/content/news/167946-eurostar-scraps-bike-box-size-restrictions


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## snorri (14 Oct 2015)

IT appears Eurostar intend to require cyclists to dismantle and box their bikes for travel on their trains. CTC has organised a campaign against this plan. Anyone can join in the opposition, you don't need to be a CTC member.
http://e-activist.com/ea-action/act...&ea.tracking.id=TW&en_chan=tw&en_ref=76939906


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## Spinney (14 Oct 2015)

done


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## hopless500 (14 Oct 2015)

Done. 
Also suggested whoever came up with the idea may like to try dismantling and reassembling a bike for a journey.


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## jefmcg (14 Oct 2015)

Subotai72 said:


> Just saw this in response
> 
> http://road.cc/content/news/167946-eurostar-scraps-bike-box-size-restrictions


Not much of a response. So now it's a box big enough to put a bike in, so that's good, but there's still the fundamental problem of how to get it to your departure point and where to store it at the far end. 

I can't even see the business model here. I've seen bikes on Eurostar. They hang on a trolley arrangement, and take up very little room. Because they aren't necessarily on the same train as the owner, there doesn't have to be one on every train. Now they are going to take up much more space than they did before - except there will be much less of them, which is kind of the point, I suspect.


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## Subotai72 (14 Oct 2015)

jefmcg said:


> Not much of a response. So now it's a box big enough to put a bike in, so that's good, but there's still the fundamental problem of how to get it to your departure point and where to store it at the far end.
> 
> I can't even see the business model here. I've seen bikes on Eurostar. They hang on a trolley arrangement, and take up very little room. Because they aren't necessarily on the same train as the owner, there doesn't have to be one on every train. Now they are going to take up much more space than they did before - except there will be much less of them, which is kind of the point, I suspect.


But they'll be in a box! It's got to be a better idea....


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## mjr (14 Oct 2015)

The motive is probably that the new e320s don't have the freight compartments of the old Three Capitals trains, which are themselves being refurbished to make it easier to walk through the luggage compartments. (Please excuse any minor errors in names.)


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## jefmcg (14 Oct 2015)

Perhaps is all subsidised by Brompton! I've taken my folder on Eurostar, and it was a pleasant experience. 

Cycle to St P
Fold bike, put in cloth bag
Carry bike and luggage to screening
endure "jokes" about riding TdF from security
lug onto train
unfold in Paris and cycle to station for next leg
This would be literally impossible with a full size bike.


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## alicat (14 Oct 2015)

Done. I have enjoyed two very enjoyable cycle tours just booking and turning up with a complete bike. It looks like the ferry is the only easy option now.


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## snorri (14 Oct 2015)

It's not just the bike, there's also the problem of carrying 4 panniers, a bar bag and luggage off the rear rack when you haven't got a pair of wheels to hang them on.


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## andytheflyer (14 Oct 2015)

And what about bikes with mudguards - taking the wheels off is all well and good, but that does not reduce the overall size by much when you've guards fitted - and there's no way I'm taking my rear guard off my Defy 'cos it'll take me a couple of hours to get it back on just right so that it does not catch the tyre. And I won't bother taking the recumbent anyway....

Not that I've used Eurostar, or plan to. It doesn't go via Crewe...

I can see Eurostar's point, but taking wheels off does not necessarily solve the problem.


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## Brains (14 Oct 2015)

From the CTC - Click on the link to complain
http://e-activist.com/ea-action/act...racking.id=DE&ea.url.id=472074&forwarded=true


_Over the summer, CTC learned from a member that Eurostar is planning on altering their cycle carriage policy, making it impossible to travel with them without boxing up your cycle first. There had been no consultation with cyclists about this change, and we now need your help to stop this policy before it's introduced on 1 November.


We believe this change in cycle policy is wrong on a number of levels:

_

_Wrong because it throws a spanner in the works for new cyclists unfamiliar with dismantling their cycle;_
_Wrong because it discriminates against people who use their cycle as a mobility aid; and_
_Wrong because Eurostar is not practising what it preaches in terms of making sustainable travel easier._
_ 
Across Europe we are seeing intercity trains switching to provide services which will allow the carriage of a complete cycle, right as Eurostar abandons it. This is why CTC, with the support of the European Cycling Federation (ECF), and together with the Belgian, Dutch, French and German cycle bodies wrote to the CEO of Eurostar, Nicolas Petrovic, calling on him to engage with cycling bodies and reverse the planned policy.


We now are calling on CTC members, supporters and cyclists from across the world to express their support for CTC’s 'Zero stars for Eurostar' by writing to them using our simple online tool.


It will only take a quick minute to send the letter off, but your voice and support will help demonstrate to Eurostar that cyclists have a right to enjoy convenient train travel like everyone else.


Thank you so much for your support. You can keep updated on this ongoing campaign via the CTC website www.ctc.org.uk


Yours in cycling,


Sam_


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## Spinney (14 Oct 2015)

Reply from 'Eurostar Traveller Care' to my email (which was largely as provided by CTC). Probably a standard reply.

Dear [Spinney],

Thank you for contacting us regarding the recent change to our bicycle policy.

First and foremost, we would like to reassure you that the new policy isn’t designed to penalise cyclist or to hamper the carriage of bicycles on our trains. On the contrary, passengers travelling with bikes continue to be important to us and we have therefore adapted our policy to provide a more straightforward, standardised service that takes into account the fact that we are moving towards a mixed fleet service with varying layouts of storage space.

As you pointed out, the fundamental change is that bikes will now need to be transported in a bike box, which you can source yourself or we are happy to provide when you register a bike. The reason for this is that when packaging bikes in this way, we are able to accommodate them on any one of our trains in a cross-compatible, dedicated space. We would like to reassure you that any sized bike box will be accepted. 

In addition, the bikes will be stored more securely, eliminating the potential for damage in transit. Bike boxes also take up less space which means we can therefore be more flexible in catering for the demand from our passengers on any given day. In fact, the capacity on each train remains the same and on certain trains we plan to accommodate more bikes than before.

We fully understand your concern and hope that you will gather that our efforts will provide a better and more robust service for cyclists. Rest assured that our staff are trained and ready to assist with the new procedure to ensure it is a seamless experience for our passengers.

Kind regards,

*Eurostar Traveller Care*
-------------------------

My reply (I'm not putting any money on getting a reply that actually addresses any of my points...)

Dear 'Eurostar Traveller Care'

I'm afraid your reply does not reassure me at all.

A key feature of many cycling holidays is that you can leave home on your bike, cycle to a train station and get the train to the beginning of your cycle tour - thus not needing to use a car at all. Your new policy completely rules out using Eurostar on this kind of trip - how can a cyclist manage to get a bike box to the Eurostar terminal _on their bike_, and what are they supposed to do with it once they reach the end of the Eurostar part of the trip? Thus encouraging car use instead of train use - so possibly losing you passengers and encouraging cyclists to use a less sustainable form of transport.

And when you say you have staff trained and ready to assist, I'm guessing you mean someone who can tell the cyclist what the new rules are, not someone equipped with the necessary spanners etc to help them dismantle parts of the bike as necessary to put it into a bike box?

[Spinney]


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## Milkfloat (14 Oct 2015)

Seeing as they are allowing you to provide your own box I could see a nice little side line renting a box at each terminal that is large enough to wheel a tandem/recumbent in without dismantling it at all. 

@Spinney Your reply does fall down on the fact that Eurostar are offering to supply the box to you free of charge. You do still have to dismantle the bike, but at least you don't have to carry a box, lets hope the boxes they source are bigger than the ones they were proposing a couple of days ago.


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## Spinney (14 Oct 2015)

Milkfloat said:


> Seeing as they are allowing you to provide your own box I could see a nice little side line renting a box at each terminal that is large enough to wheel a tandem/recumbent in without dismantling it at all.
> 
> @Spinney Your reply does fall down on the fact that Eurostar are offering to supply the box to you free of charge. You do still have to dismantle the bike, but at least you don't have to carry a box, lets hope the boxes they source are bigger than the ones they were proposing a couple of days ago.


Oops - should have read their reply better. But their email does not actually say it is free? And you might still have to carry the tools for removing pedals (if this is necessary? I've never needed a bike box before) - not something you want to lug along on tour.

But you're right about the business opportunity!


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## mjr (14 Oct 2015)

I've written, expressing doubt that I can dismantle my bike in sensible time (definitely true of my roadster) so would have to transport it to the station another way and then use a hand-barrow to wheel it around and to/from the station... or just take a ferry or the Eurotunnel service.


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## snorri (14 Oct 2015)

on any one of our trains in a cross-compatible, dedicated space.

Eurostarspeak for a guards van with less flexibility and more rules?


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## jefmcg (14 Oct 2015)

Amusingly if you google _eurostar bicycle_ you see this






When you click the link , the new text does not include the word _easy_ nor does it mention them supplying a box. I think they are in damage control, making stuff up as quick as they can.


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## snorri (14 Oct 2015)

jefmcg said:


> Amusingly if you google _eurostar bicycle_ you see this.....


I think the text you have copied applies to the present time, after 1st November it's all change.


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## jefmcg (14 Oct 2015)

snorri said:


> I think the text you have copied applies to the present time, after 1st November it's all change.


Well, yes. It's the text from a few days ago, google hasn't updated this text since the Eurostars page update with this new policy.


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## snorri (14 Oct 2015)

I asked about the cost of using their box and loading the box laden with bike and panniers off and on the train and got this response........

"The boxes supplied by Eurostar are incorporated into the bike transportation costs. No further fees are levied for the use of our boxes.

For the vast majority of bikes, only the removal of wheels will be required in order to house them in the boxes. Panniers will have to be removed but this remains identical to our current procedure when panniers are taken to the travellers seat for storage in the normal luggage racks.

The boxes will be loaded by our staff. Once you've checked in the bike, we deal with all the facets of the actual transport."

No mention of measures to protect mudguards and gear systems when bike is wheel-less in the box.


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## jefmcg (14 Oct 2015)

[QUOTE 3954020, member: 259"]I've protested via the CTC link saying I'm a frequent business class passenger on Eurostar (which is true, by the way), but I'm not exactly holding my breath for a change in policy.[/QUOTE]
I think they have already made a change. The website says nothing about supplying bike boxes, but emails say they will. So they are tweaking to deal with a PR disaster.


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## snorri (14 Oct 2015)

Latest note to Eurostar
You say "only the wheels have to be removed", but have you considered the practicality of this?
I wheel my bike up to the check in desk, remove all luggage (6 items when touring) invert my bicycle and remove the wheels. At this point I am trying to keep an eye for security reasons on nine items as I put the bike into your box. You don't mention how the bike will be held in the box. Can I be assured that the frame will be secured in the box in a manner which will ensure the mudguards and gear system is protected? I trust a trolley will be available to wheel my luggage to the passenger coach. Have you considered the inconvenience to other passengers as cyclists carry multiple pieces of luggage to their seats rather than leaving them secured on the bicycle?


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## jefmcg (15 Oct 2015)

snorri said:


> Latest note to Eurostar
> You say "only the wheels have to be removed", but have you considered the practicality of this?
> I wheel my bike up to the check in desk, remove all luggage (6 items when touring) invert my bicycle and remove the wheels. At this point I am trying to keep an eye for security reasons on nine items as I put the bike into your box. You don't mention how the bike will be held in the box. Can I be assured that the frame will be secured in the box in a manner which will ensure the mudguards and gear system is protected? I trust a trolley will be available to wheel my luggage to the passenger coach. Have you considered the inconvenience to other passengers as cyclists carry multiple pieces of luggage to their seats rather than leaving them secured on the bicycle?



I think most of this irrelevant. What people are asking for is for Eurostar to continuing to provide the service that used to. You've never been able to wheel your bike to the door of the train, you've had to hand it over well before your train and manage your luggage separately. So if you can't manage your luggage without your bicycle, then Eurostar never was for you. 

Actually, I guess only eurotunnel would work for you. On the ferry you ride on board with luggage attached, but then you'd either have to leave it in the car area with the risk of theft, or manage to get all the bags upstairs without a trolley, and then watch them all the time.


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## jefmcg (15 Oct 2015)

User said:


> The ferry car decks are locked at sea. I've tended to leave most of the stuff on my bike when I've been on ferries and only taken the most valuable bits and what I need off. I've never had anything go missing.


Me too. You'd probably not say 


snorri said:


> At this point I am trying to keep an eye for security reasons on nine items as I put the bike into your box.


 about the Eurostar terminal, either.


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## snorri (15 Oct 2015)

jefmcg said:


> about the Eurostar terminal, either.


I don't understand your comment.
I was trying to make the point that once a cycle tourist splits bike and luggage into multiple components in a busy area then it is difficult to ensure security and avoid a trip hazard for passers by.
The ferry companies seem better able to cope with bicycles, but it could be a useful option if Eurostar were to provide an attractive service.


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## jefmcg (15 Oct 2015)

snorri said:


> I don't understand your comment.
> I was trying to make the point that once a cycle tourist splits bike and luggage into multiple components in a busy area then it is difficult to ensure security and avoid a trip hazard for passers by.
> The ferry companies seem better able to cope with bicycles, but it could be a useful option if Eurostar were to provide an attractive service.


Sure, but the current protest about the *changes*. The best outcome that is hoped for is for them to revert to how it is now. You want a completely different service, that they have never offered.

I imagine the place where you take your bicycle would be separate area on the "land" side, like a baggage drop at an airport, so there wouldn't be a trip hazard.

I agree I'd want to know what the boxes they are providing are like, but I suspect they only decided they were going to do it yesterday, so they have no idea right now. Letting them know what you would require (eg allow mudguards, derailleur protection) might help them spec suitable boxes.


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## mjr (15 Oct 2015)

jefmcg said:


> Sure, but the current protest about the *changes*. The best outcome that is hoped for is for them to revert to how it is now. You want a completely different service, that they have never offered.


Why can't someone hope for a new good service? These changes are being provoked by the new trains not having the baggage compartments of the old trains, according to the seating plans on http://www.seat61.com/London-to-Paris-by-train.htm#new_e320_Eurostar_trains - so even a reversion to the old service seems unlikely unless they find a way to sneak some bike hooks on. I wonder what's in the gap opposite the luggage racks in coaches 8 and 9 on the new trains?


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## toffee (15 Oct 2015)

I wrote to Eurostar via the CTC campaign. 
I got a generic email back this afternoon, they have still not addressed to concerns that have been put across to them regarding protection of the bike if you take the wheels off.

Now it probability is the case that the new rules where dreamt up by people who have no idea about the finer points of putting a bike in a box and they now discover that there is a fundamental flaw in their idea, but I hope that they are busy behind the scenes thinking of a better way to do it.

I would have thought that if the bikes must go in a box then they need to go in whole, with at most just the handle bars needing turning. The boxes will be quite a lot bigger than there first hoped for and this may lead to less space on each train for cycle but it could be the way to compromise.

Derek


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## MossCommuter (14 Nov 2015)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34815867

People power


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## Drago (14 Nov 2015)

I see the CTC are trying to take the credit for the turnaround.


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## Drago (14 Nov 2015)

Indeed, I'm not doubting their pressure was a big deal in the matter. However, they've been claiming that they created an outcry in the cycling community - I think I upset them when I pointed out that the outcry was already well and truly in existence as irate cyclists angrily discussed this on numerous forums - including their own - for many days before they threw their hat in the ring.


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## Dayvo (14 Nov 2015)

MossCommuter said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34815867
> 
> People power



The BBC reporter isn't too _au fait_ with cycling, either.

_The bike is hung on a storage rack by its tyres. _


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## Dayvo (14 Nov 2015)

[QUOTE 4004789, member: 259"]Anyway, it means I don't have to buy a Brompton! [/QUOTE]

But you're still allowed the n+1.


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## snorri (14 Nov 2015)

Drago said:


> m when I pointed out that the outcry was already well and truly in existence as irate cyclists angrily discussed this on numerous forums -.


Yebbut angry discussions on a forum will achieve nothing.


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