# Pavement parking and children cycling



## Hebe (5 Sep 2012)

My 4 year old has ridden her bike (with stabilisers) to school and back every day this week. She loves it, and on the whole the journey isn't too bad (crossings at the two roads, fairly wide pavements, flat etc). We started out at 25minutes on Monday and she's already down to 15 (with a red-faced mother running after her).

Poor thing went into a lamp-post today though. There's a huge bit of pavement frontage outside a local house, and a car was parked fully on the pavement, in between the lamp-post and a property fence at the back of the pavement. There was just under 2 feet left between the post and the kerb, and she didn't get it right. It was just around a corner too, so she didn't have enought time. In retrospect I should probably have slowed her down a bit more, but she wasn't going faster than I was walking. Anyway, all fine, but it got me wondering. If a child cyclist goes into an illegally parked car, are the parents technically liable for any damage to the car? Personally, I think that if you park on the pavement without leaving room for buggies/mobility scooters/children on scooters or bikes, then you shouldn't really complain about the odd scratch.

Thoughts? Experience?


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## Andy_R (5 Sep 2012)

Hebe said:


> My 4 year old has ridden her bike (with stabilisers) to school and back every day this week. She loves it, and on the whole the journey isn't too bad (crossings at the two roads, fairly wide pavements, flat etc). We started out at 25minutes on Monday and she's already down to 15 (with a red-faced mother running after her).
> 
> Poor thing went into a lamp-post today though. There's a huge bit of pavement frontage outside a local house, and a car was parked fully on the pavement, in between the lamp-post and a property fence at the back of the pavement. There was just under 2 feet left between the post and the kerb, and she didn't get it right. It was just around a corner too, so she didn't have enought time. In retrospect I should probably have slowed her down a bit more, but she wasn't going faster than I was walking. Anyway, all fine, but it got me wondering. If a child cyclist goes into an illegally parked car, are the parents technically liable for any damage to the car? Personally, I think that if you park on the pavement without leaving room for buggies/mobility scooters/children on scooters or bikes, *then you shouldn't really complain about the odd scratch*.
> 
> Thoughts? Experience?


 
......or broken wing mirror, dented wing, bashed in door panel.........pavements are for peds, not parking. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who parks on the footpath either a) is incapable of judging distances and has real problems parking *next* to the footpath, or b) is just plain lazy.


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## djb1971 (5 Sep 2012)

I can honestly say that if I walk past anything illegally parked on the pavement I don't care wether I scratch it, knock it or dent it. It shouldn't be there. I don't intentionally do damage to vehicles but if I'm walking along a pavement next to my wife I couldn't care less if anything I'm carrying knocks them. 

Theyre just inconsiderate lazy b******s. Why should you risk going out onto a busy road to get around a chunk of metal.


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## summerdays (5 Sep 2012)

When mine were that age I did used to shout loudly .... "Try not to scratch that car as you squeeze past". I doubt it changed anything. I have also reported cars to the police where insufficient room was left on the pavement for a buggy or wheelchair to get by. 

And if I did need to go in the road to get by then I used to take up almost a car width in the road - tough if a car wanted to get by at the same time. (The road it used to happen on was very narrow so they would have to wait behind.)


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## Hitchington (5 Sep 2012)

At work I sometimes support a disabled man in a wheelchair to access the community and cars/vans/lorries parked up on the pavement are a blooming nuisance, or even have been know to prevent some wheelchair users from getting to where they need to be. Trouble is the kind of person that parks on the pavement isn't really bothered about getting their vehicle (old banger or company van) scratched. Sometimes I wish I had super-strength to push them off into the road!


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## Hebe (5 Sep 2012)

Thanks, all. That's interesting about reporting to the police, do they do anything? I wondered if parking infringements came under the council rather than the police.

I'm wondering if it might be someone who's just moved in there, as there were a couple of white vans blocking the same bit of pavement a week or so back. It was a very new looking car with a book-keeping logo, I think it's a small business.


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## summerdays (5 Sep 2012)

The police didn't always do anything - though in one case I re-reported the incident as the police came and looked and declared there was enough space left (6 inches!!!), the second police officer did agree that the pavement was blocked. It took a while getting them to first put notices on the cars, then they started ticketing them and occasionally towing them away (only the worst cases). And when I was back that way during the school holidays I noticed they have put in double yellow lines in places!

(I used to have the telephone number in my mobile so that I could ring them to report it there and then if I wanted to - it got to the point that I could only be bothered to report the worst cases).


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## growingvegetables (5 Sep 2012)

Hitchington said:


> Trouble is the kind of person that parks on the pavement isn't really bothered about getting their vehicle ... scratched.


I wish that were true - there's a numpty of the "don't-you-****ing-touch-my-car" idiot brigade whose ownership of a large black BMW "entitles" him to park on the pavement just along the road from my kids. I'm told he reduced a mum with a double buggy to tears. B@st@rd.


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## Herr-B (5 Sep 2012)

I believe the requisite space is 36", the police used to come round our village and ticket people when they'd received enough complaints and this is the figure they quoted on a poster in the local shop.


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## summerdays (5 Sep 2012)

Parking can come under both the council and the police, depends on the area and what they are actually doing. I think Parking Services do the yellow line enforcement and police do the obstructions - but I could be completely wrong about that. Just know I used to report it to the police and it was them that used to come along and put on tickets.

Another problem with parking on the pavement was that if the cars parked up on the pavement then they could park on both sides of the road, leaving both footpaths unusable, and leaving a narrow chicane down the middle with no where for cars to pull in properly to pass.


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## mcshroom (5 Sep 2012)

Let their tyres down every time you pass until they get the message


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## wiggydiggy (5 Sep 2012)

I wouldn't suggest what this chap does to cars parked on the pavement, well maybe a little....


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## skudupnorth (5 Sep 2012)

Don't get me started !!! The school run is a nightmare where i live because of inconsiderate @r$eholes parking on the pavement.It's even more anoying when they have a perfectly empty driveway !
As already said previously i do not have an issue with my youngest buggy or my other kids bags ect adding new "go-faster" stripes down the side of anything in my way or shoving mirrors nice and flat.I even drove the whole herd across a front garden one time because one tosser had parked their car across the path and partly in their drive....oh joy !


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## Hitchington (6 Sep 2012)

growingvegetables said:


> I wish that were true - there's a numpty of the "don't-you-****ing-touch-my-car" idiot brigade whose ownership of a large black BMW "entitles" him to park on the pavement just along the road from my kids. I'm told he reduced a mum with a double buggy to tears. B@st@rd.


 I think that mum should fit Boudica style chariot wheel blades to the buggy next time she passes said BMW


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## trampyjoe (6 Sep 2012)

Hitchington said:


> I think that mum should fit Boudica style chariot wheel blades to the buggy next time she passes said BMW


On my trailer there's attachment points that protrude, it's for some bars that cover the wheels but I never put the bars on due to bollard clearance round here. I think I may have _accidently_ passed a brand new shiny BMW a tad too close the other day because he was taking up most of the pavement/cyclepath.


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## simon.r (6 Sep 2012)

This issue is one of my bugbears. I challenged my neighbour (in a friendly manner!), who used to leave about 12" of clear footpath and she was genuinely surprised that I considered it an issue, as 'The cars need to get past don't they?' Her mindset was so focussed on cars that she just hadn't considered pedestrians, wheelchairs etc. This on a quiet surburban road where, in the worst case, a car parked fully on the road would mean a few seconds delay for a car if there happened to be another one coming in the opposite direction.



Herr-B said:


> I believe the requisite space is 36", the police used to come round our village and ticket people when they'd received enough complaints and this is the figure they quoted on a poster in the local shop.


 
This doesn't relate directly to cars parking on the footpath, but for works that need barriers erecting on the footpath the recommendation is that 1.5m is left:

"Footways should be of a suitable width for the volume of pedestrian traffic. Temporary pedestrian routes should be at least 1.5 m wide wherever possible, and should be a minimum of 1.2 m wide with an absolute minimum of 1.0 m in exceptional circumstances."

Taken from http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publicatio...l/traffic-signs-manual-chapter-08-part-02.pdf


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## sidevalve (6 Sep 2012)

Andy_R said:


> ......or broken wing mirror, dented wing, bashed in door panel.........pavements are for peds, not parking. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who parks on the footpath either a) is incapable of judging distances and has real problems parking *next* to the footpath, or b) is just plain lazy.


 Agree 100% [however that includes adult cyclists who have no right to be there either]. However be carefull, willfull criminal damage is still just that and if you are seen damaging someone's car you will have no defence. You may say "Oh well it shouldn't have been there in the first place" BUT the reply will only be "No it should not, it should have been reported to the police / council [the fact that they seem to do nothing will not be taken into account], and you fine will be £----- , next case". Oh yes, and you will have a criminal record. If the parking is on a school route and regular get the school to complain they often carry more weight than individuals.
Lastly I do find it interesting the number of people on this forum who swear thay never use cycle paths,"too dangerous, in silly places, can't use the mixed ones peds all over the place" etc etc. Then see the number who almost burst into tears and have a rant when someone parks on one of the "never used" cycle lanes.


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## Andrew_Culture (6 Sep 2012)

I live on a road of terraced houses built many years before cars were commercially available, if one side of the road doesn't part up on the pavement then emergency vehicles won't be able to get down the road. One pavement (across the road from us) is left totally clear due to an awesomely high kerb, and yet people still use the pavement on our side of the road and criminally damage vehicles to teach their owners a lesson.

Persistent criminal damage is only a small part of why I don't have a car, but is a very large part of the reason that my wife's car is a very old one, there's simply no point in owning a car you don't mind getting destroyed on our road.

What can be done? Well nothing I guess, barring demolishing all the houses on one side of the road. One plus of the road being so tight is that it tends to slow down all the motorists who use it as a short cut. There are quite a few children who play in the streets and between the cars, which makes us incredibly nervous. This week there has been a skip on the road which has brilliantly slowed down all the traffic!


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## summerdays (6 Sep 2012)

simon.r said:


> This issue is one of my bugbears. I challenged my neighbour (in a friendly manner!), who used to leave about 12" of clear footpath and she was genuinely surprised that I considered it an issue, as 'The cars need to get past don't they?' Her mindset was so focussed on cars that she just hadn't considered pedestrians, wheelchairs etc. This on a quiet surburban road where, in the worst case, a car parked fully on the road would mean a few seconds delay for a car if there happened to be another one coming in the opposite direction.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The police aren't bothered with parking on the pavement if there is that large a gap - they only seem to get involved when it is very narrow - and you can understand why when you see the amount of pavement parking.


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## summerdays (6 Sep 2012)

sidevalve said:


> Lastly I do find it interesting the number of people on this forum who swear thay never use cycle paths,"too dangerous, in silly places, can't use the mixed ones peds all over the place" etc etc. Then see the number who almost burst into tears and have a rant when someone parks on one of the "never used" cycle lanes.


That's ok then as I do use them when suitable


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## Andrew_Culture (6 Sep 2012)

[QUOTE 2026207, member: 45"]Double yellow lines.[/quote]

They're coming!

We live near the ITFC ground, the station and the town centre and yet the residents here keep turning down the chance to have residents parking permits.


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## Hip Priest (6 Sep 2012)

I parked on a kerb a few years ago, and when I returned to my car there was a note politely requesting me not to do so in future, and explaining the reasons why. It was a lesson learned, and I'm glad the note-writer was mature enough not to spitefully damage my car.


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## Pauluk (6 Sep 2012)

Hebe said:


> If a child cyclist goes into an illegally parked car, are the parents technically liable for any damage to the car?


I believe under English law parents are not liable (as they are in the USA) for any damage their children cause and children can't be held criminally liable (under a certain age, may be 10 years) nor do they have to account for civil damages. So its up to the conscience of the parent.

Personally I feel parent should be held to account in certain cases but there you go.


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## Hebe (6 Sep 2012)

simon.r said:


> This issue is one of my bugbears. I challenged my neighbour (in a friendly manner!), who used to leave about 12" of clear footpath and she was genuinely surprised that I considered it an issue, as 'The cars need to get past don't they?' Her mindset was so focussed on cars that she just hadn't considered pedestrians, wheelchairs etc. This on a quiet surburban road where, in the worst case, a car parked fully on the road would mean a few seconds delay for a car if there happened to be another one coming in the opposite direction. <...polite snip...


 
I think this is a lot of the problem - people think it's preferable to get their cars out of the way of the traffic but they don't think (or care, in some cases) how their actions affect those who rely on an unobstructed pavement to get around safely.

There was someone else parked there today, but B was ready for it and managed the manoevre fine. I think there's probably closer to 2feet of pavement left between lamp-post and kerb, but it's still not much compared to the 8 or 9 feet on the other side of the lamp-post. My intention would never be wilful damage, much as I might be tempted that's not the example I want to set my daughter, but I was interested in how much clout a peeved car-owner might have, legally, if a small child did encounter a car blocking their way and couldn't brake/steer around in time. The photo is from Googlemaps, if you imagine a car parked a few yards behind the one shown, you can see the problem we had. The bent lamp-post would seem to tell a story too. The previous house-owners use to park right up by the fence and close to their front door, so although they were on the pavement there was still plenty of space left for people to get by. Our route is from the bottom left corner of the picture, which has a corner just out of shot.
Thanks for all the replies and the interesting views. I had forgotten about the age of criminal responsibility being older than 4.


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## 400bhp (6 Sep 2012)

Hebe said:


> I think this is a lot of the problem - people think it's preferable to get their cars out of the way of the traffic but they don't think (or care, in some cases) how their actions affect those who rely on an unobstructed pavement to get around safely.
> 
> There was someone else parked there today, but B was ready for it and managed the manoevre fine. I think there's probably closer to 2feet of pavement left between lamp-post and kerb, but it's still not much compared to the 8 or 9 feet on the other side of the lamp-post. My intention would never be wilful damage, much as I might be tempted that's not the example I want to set my daughter, *but I was interested in how much clout a peeved car-owner might have, legally, if a small child did encounter a car blocking their way and couldn't brake/steer around in time*. The photo is from Googlemaps, if you imagine a car parked a few yards behind the one shown, you can see the problem we had. The bent lamp-post would seem to tell a story too. The previous house-owners use to park right up by the fence and close to their front door, so although they were on the pavement there was still plenty of space left for people to get by. Our route is from the bottom left corner of the picture, which has a corner just out of shot.
> Thanks for all the replies and the interesting views. I had forgotten about the age of criminal responsibility being older than 4.


 
Zero, zilch, nada, norfolk en chance.

The car is on the pavement and causing an obstruction-a child cannot be assumed to cause wilful damage as it's a child. End of.


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## summerdays (6 Sep 2012)

Today I was cycling along a double parked road and noticed a lady in a wheelchair on the road, a line of parked cars separating her from her child, as they chatted together. I assume there was insufficient space and because it was a line of cars (no driveways so cars parked practically nose to tail), that once in the road, she was unable to get back onto the pavement. The road is sufficiently narrow that cars are unable to pass me on a bike when they are double parked.


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## Hebe (6 Sep 2012)

summerdays said:


> Today I was cycling along a double parked road and noticed a lady in a wheelchair on the road, a line of parked cars separating her from her child, as they chatted together. I assume there was insufficient space and because it was a line of cars (no driveways so cars parked practically nose to tail), that once in the road, she was unable to get back onto the pavement. The road is sufficiently narrow that cars are unable to pass me on a bike when they are double parked.


 
That's awful. It reminded me of the local business estate, where someone on a mobility scooter has to go along the road because there are no dropped kerbs across the unit entrances.


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## fossyant (7 Sep 2012)

Get one of those 'I hope the fleas of a thousand camels infest your armpits' parking tickets, and slap that on the car - must be on the web somewhere

Like this:-

http://www.iwsti.com/forums/off-topic/206288-fake-parking-ticket-wtf.html


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## trampyjoe (7 Sep 2012)

fossyant said:


> <snip>
> 
> http://www.iwsti.com/forums/off-topic/206288-fake-parking-ticket-wtf.html


 
And to think, I only found the following picture this morning:






Saying that, the guy in that forum thread did get a bit of a flaming for parking like an idiot.


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## trampyjoe (7 Sep 2012)

Saw this today whilst walking to the shop - The building you can see in the background on the left is the local primary school!



2012-09-07 12.28.44 by trampyjoe, on Flickr


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## Hebe (7 Sep 2012)

That's atrocious!
We had another pavement parker this morning. The driver was still in the car, so I did have the satisfaction of watching his face twitch nervously at the sight of a 4 year old furiously pedalling between him and the wall, stabilisers bobbing up and down. Less satisfying was the woman who stopped across the toucan crossing in a line of traffic. I know I should be setting a good example to my daughter, but I may have made a gesture as she accelerated off through the red light rather than waiting to let us cross.


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## Alun (7 Sep 2012)

"Whilst there is no blanket prohibition on parking on verges, a particular incident of verge parking may be considered dangerous or obstructive or cause damage and may constitute a criminal offence under one or other of the following statutory provisions: -

Section 28 Town Police Clauses Act 1847 - wilfully causing an obstruction to any public footpath or public thoroughfare.
Regulation 103 Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 - vehicles causing unnecessary obstruction of the road (including verge).
Section 22 Road Traffic Act 1988 - leaving vehicles in a dangerous position on the road (including verge).
Section 137 Highways Act 1980 wilful obstruction of the free passage along a highway.
Section 72 Highways Act 1835 - driving on any footpath or causeway by the side of any road made or set apart for the use or accommodation of foot passengers.
Section 131(1)(c) Highways Act 1980 - deposits anything whatsoever on a highway so it would damage the highway
Allegations concerning any of the above possible offences would be a matter for the police to investigate and enforce, rather than the traffic authority."
I have copied this from a Bucks CC website, I think it shows the legal position quite well. It also states that it is the polices responsibility to deal with the matter, actually getting them to take action may be more difficult due to a lack of resources.


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## AnythingButVanilla (7 Sep 2012)

Is B ok? I do hope this morning hasn't put her off.


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## atbman (8 Sep 2012)

Told one bloke near me who left only about a 12" gap, that I was of a nervous disposition and was afraid to walk in the road. So nervous, in fact that I was even prepared to climb over obstacles in my big boots rather than do so.

And this was what I would do on my return from the local shop about 100 yds up the road, even if the obstacle was a shiny, brand new, BMW convertible. He's never parked there since. Not sure if the manic, fixed grin and the plentiful spraying of saliva as I talked, contributed to his increased concern for others.


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## Hebe (9 Sep 2012)

AnythingButVanilla said:


> Is B ok? I do hope this morning hasn't put her off.


She's fine, thank you. A small packet of smarties did the trick, and she now looks for parked cars on that corner and goes round them. She's converted another two 4-year olds to riding to school : proudmum:


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## xpc316e (9 Sep 2012)

Nobody seems to have mentioned that under our arcane laws the cycling child cannot ride on the pavement.


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## Nigel-YZ1 (9 Sep 2012)

Doesn't matter what the laws say, none of them are being enforced now anyway.

Drove back from my girlfriend's house friday. Was followed by a female driving instructor who broke the speed limit until she got to me, and nattered away on her handheld mobile all the time.
I'm now starting to see increasing numbers of people not wearing set belts.
My Mother's neighbour has five cars, all of which are pavement parked, usually across the driveways of other neighbours.

It's only going to get worse, but don't worry, our police forces are saving money.


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## summerdays (9 Sep 2012)

xpc316e said:


> Nobody seems to have mentioned that under our arcane laws the cycling child cannot ride on the pavement.


Can't prosecute a four year old - so they can ride on the pavement, though not legally.


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## Nigel-YZ1 (9 Sep 2012)

Lately I've been looking at a new build estate to move to. I've come to two conclusions: Firstly they're a rip-off, and secondly many of the houses are built with no parking provision at all, or parking space as a perk, and that plus garden space being traded off to just fit more houses on the available land.
Yes, it's up to the buyers to decide if they're going to own a car if they move there, but the majority just believe it'll be sorted if they just dump the thing in the road.
The result looks like a random open car park, with every inch covered in metal and the kids playing in between.

The nice sales lady told me it was weekend visitors causing the clutter. Funnily enough all those visitors were still there the following thursday evening.


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