# How much is too much?



## Rusty Rocket (27 Jan 2021)

Just been browsing the usual websites to see what I can’t afford (or need, but that’s irrelevant) and can see that it’s easy to blow a grand on a bike.
Carbon fibre, higher spec components etc all go towards paying more, but is anyone seriously spending nearly £10k on a bike? What’s the difference between this and say a £2k or even £5k bike?
And who’s buying these? Teams competing in TdF etc or are their bikes custom builds?
Baffled!

https://www.evanscycles.com/brand/c...2-2021-mens-road-bike-934388#colcode=93438818


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## mjr (27 Jan 2021)

Some people are probably buying them, else we'd see more discounts.

In general, I'd suggest not spending more than you can afford to lose.


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## Rusty Rocket (27 Jan 2021)

mjr said:


> Some people are probably buying them, else we'd see more discounts.
> 
> In general, I'd suggest not spending more than you can afford to lose.


Yeah, fair. I guess my question is are they actually worth it? Or are they overpriced for what you actually get?


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## Ming the Merciless (27 Jan 2021)

If it brings you joy, and you ride it lots, who else is to put the value on that? Value is a very personal thing.


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## shep (27 Jan 2021)

I would say there's a bigger difference between a 3k and a 1k bike than say a 5k and 8k bike, this is pure opinion though and I don't have any scientific evidence or links to anything to prove it.


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## iluvmybike (27 Jan 2021)

What does it matter what anyone else spends on a bike. Why do some people buy Aldi shorts and some Rapha. Why do some people buy a Dacia and others an Audi - value for money is a personal thing


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## Ian H (27 Jan 2021)

Firstly decide what you will be using your bike for: road-racing? Touring? Downhill racing? Circus tricks? 
What you have linked to a road-race machine aimed at those who will probably only ever use it for the occasional sportif.


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## weareHKR (27 Jan 2021)

Whatever the cost you'll always see one somewhere with a £1.99 lock on it!


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## KneesUp (27 Jan 2021)

shep said:


> [makes claim]


 although


shep said:


> I don't have any scientific evidence or links to anything to prove it.


A seat in government awaits you :-)


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## MartinQ (27 Jan 2021)

Rusty Rocket said:


> nearly £10k on a bike? What’s the difference between this and say a £2k or even £5k bike?
> Baffled!



£8k and £5k, respectively.


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## Rusty Rocket (27 Jan 2021)

iluvmybike said:


> What does it matter what anyone else spends on a bike. Why do some people buy Aldi shorts and some Rapha. Why do some people buy a Dacia and others an Audi - value for money is a personal thing


ok... It was more of a question as to what makes them more expensive, rather than whether someone should buy them or not (hence asking in the beginners section).
The car analogy is a weak one - even a non car expert can tell the difference between cheap and expensive.


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## vickster (27 Jan 2021)

Rusty Rocket said:


> Ok...
> So I wasn’t having a pop at anyone
> 
> ok... It was more of a question as to *what makes them more expensive*, rather than whether someone should buy them or not (hence asking in the beginners section).
> The car analogy is a weak one - even a non car expert can tell the difference between cheap and expensive.


Quality of materials, brand, cachet, components, mark up, need to fund pro team sponsorship, paint job...
Similar to what makes an Audi more expensive than a Dacia I guess

I think most could tell the difference between a £500 and a £5000 bike...just by picking it up


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## CXRAndy (27 Jan 2021)

I dont mind spending money on a frame gear set, but really balk at spending silly money on deep aero rims. I will not buy, enve and alike. £700 for a set is the most I've every paid on wheels. Ive got some nice wheels too


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## vickster (27 Jan 2021)

I could spend 5k on a bike or more, but as a recreational pootler I've never been able to justify spending more than £2.5k (any more than I could justify spending more than £15k on a car)


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## chris-suffolk (27 Jan 2021)

Many would say that an 'entry level' road bike is north of £1500 now-a-days. Certainly I wouldn't say mine is in anyway exceptional, and I picked it up in an end of season sale, but the RRP on it was a LOT more than £1500.

There was a post on another cycle forum not long back, where the OP was asking what wheels to add to his brand new road bike. The Bike was over £12000, and I think he ended up with wheels above £5000. For him it made sense and was value for money - for others ???!!

Buy what you can afford, and what meets your needs - though those 2 objectives may be incompatible.


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## All uphill (27 Jan 2021)

If you want it, you want it. Nothing else will do.

All the stuff about lighter, faster, nicer is true to some extent, but that doesn't really matter.


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## slowmotion (27 Jan 2021)

My attitude is that above about £850, I 'd rather spend more money on the engine than the bike.


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## HLaB (27 Jan 2021)

The Cannondale has a high end electronic groupset and better carbon weave and there is probably some aerodynamic research/ advantage. Whether being a couple of hundred grams lighter, stiffer and micro seconds faster shifting and aerodynamics worth it, especially to the amateur  They must feel with supply and demand economics it works for them.


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## Rusty Rocket (27 Jan 2021)

HLaB said:


> The Cannondale has a high end electronic groupset and better carbon weave and there is probably some aerodynamic research/ advantage. Whether being a couple of hundred grams lighter, stiffer and micro seconds faster shifting and aerodynamics worth it, especially to the amateur  They must feel with supply and demand economics it works for them.


That’s really useful, thanks. Didn’t know electronic groupsets existed until now!
Tighter CF weave is exactly the sort of thing that I was looking to hear vs a cheaper bike. Sounds like elite level tinkering.


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## SkipdiverJohn (27 Jan 2021)

Rusty Rocket said:


> Tighter CF weave is exactly the sort of thing that I was looking to hear vs a cheaper bike. Sounds like elite level tinkering.



Sounds like a load of marketing BS to me. I'd like to see a kosher blind test of one of these supposedly "special" frames, compared back to back with a regular one, with no decals fitted, without the testers being told how much each bike weighed, and no way the testers could game the result.
Bicycle Quarterly reported on a blind test for plain unadorned steel frames made of different makers tubesets and the testers could not tell which was which.


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## shep (27 Jan 2021)

KneesUp said:


> although
> 
> A seat in government awaits you :-)


I've been bitten more than once on here giving an opinion.


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## Rusty Rocket (27 Jan 2021)

That’s sort of my original question - is it just marketing BS why these bikes are nearly 5 figures or is there some magic to them. Bit of both I’d imagine.
I’d expect to be bombarded with marketing bs / science (pseudo or not) if I was shelling out that sort of cash.


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## shep (27 Jan 2021)

vickster said:


> I could spend 5k on a bike or more, but as a recreational pootler I've never been able to justify spending more than £2.5k (any more than I could justify spending more than £15k on a car)


Absolutely this, 

I think 105 level groupset is as much as the 'average Joe' needs and the above price generally provides this, sometimes Ultegra, wheels are generally pretty good as well.


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## cougie uk (27 Jan 2021)

There's a lot of diminishing returns here. 

Any bike over about £500 is going to be pretty decent. 

Manufacturers will sell 10k bikes because people will buy them. They're cheap compared to cars and they need to furnish their racing teams with the best anyway. Makes sense to sell the same to the public.


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## SkipdiverJohn (27 Jan 2021)

cougie uk said:


> Manufacturers will sell 10k bikes because people will buy them. They're cheap compared to cars



Except they aren't. it's quite possible to buy a brand new car that will transport four people and a load of luggage/shopping etc, for less money than one high end road bike that will transport one person and is able to carry bugger all else.
High end bikes are terrible value for money, especially when compared to motorised transport. What do you think costs more in engineering development, a racing motorcycle capable of close to 200 mph or a human powered racing bike? Most people would probably think the former, in which case why is a very fast motorcycle comparable in price to a high end carbon fibre road bike and not several times more expensive?


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## shep (27 Jan 2021)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Except they aren't. it's quite possible to buy a brand new car that will transport four people and a load of luggage/shopping etc, for less money than one high end road bike that will transport one person and is able to carry bugger all else.
> High end bikes are terrible value for money, especially when compared to motorised transport. What do you think costs more in engineering development, a racing motorcycle capable of close to 200 mph or a human powered racing bike? Most people would probably think the former, in which case why is a very fast motorcycle comparable in price to a high end carbon fibre road bike and not several times more expensive?


Absolutely, how can a pushbike really cost 10k when all the above is available for the same price?

All I can think is the amount sold, loads more cars/motorcycles compared to pushbikes keeps the cost down.


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## PaulSB (28 Jan 2021)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Sounds like a load of marketing BS to me. I'd like to see a kosher blind test of one of these supposedly "special" frames, compared back to back with a regular one, with no decals fitted, without the testers being told how much each bike weighed, and no way the testers could game the result.
> Bicycle Quarterly reported on a blind test for plain unadorned steel frames made of different makers tubesets and the testers could not tell which was which.


I can only assume you've never ridden one. The difference is marked.


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## PaulSB (28 Jan 2021)

Rusty Rocket said:


> That’s sort of my original question - is it just marketing BS why these bikes are nearly 5 figures or is there some magic to them. Bit of both I’d imagine.
> I’d expect to be bombarded with marketing bs / science (pseudo or not) if I was shelling out that sort of cash.


I think you are correct in saying it's a bit of both. I retired four years ago and from my lump sum treated myself to a summer bike which would now cost £4500, possibly £5000 given the price increases coming our way, to replace. I didn't pay close to that sum. The difference is significant, my easy cruising speed increased by 3 mph and it has been a contributor, not the only factor, in a huge improvement in my hill climbing.

Another aspect is adaptability and uses. I recently bought a winter bike for £3000+. Sounds outrageous for a winter bike. It would be except we chose a frame and set up which gives me a winter/gravel/touring bike and would also make a decent summer bike. So 3-4 bikes in one.

Paying £5-10k for a bike would be very hard for me and I doubt I'll ever need to. The reason is this. I think, for example, 105 is very adequate for my needs. I've watched too many friends struggle with Di2 so I want traditional shifting. Therefore I'm unlikely to invest huge sums in Ultegra and Di2 as I see no benefit to MY cycling.

Show me a frame and wheels which will improve my riding and pleasure and I'm sold on it.

I recently spent £500 on a secondhand Cannondale. Why? It will fit perfectly the use I have in mind, it's a beautiful bike and I've always lusted after a Cannondale. It isn't about price, it's about purpose, benefit and pleasure in equal quantity.


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## weareHKR (28 Jan 2021)

Give _Hambini_ a watch on Youtube, he'll show you how good a high-end super-duper all singing dancing bike frame is...


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## PaulSB (28 Jan 2021)

weareHKR said:


> Give _Hambini_ a watch on Youtube, he'll show you how good a high-end super-duper all singing dancing bike frame is...


I'd never heard of this guy so I checked YouTube. I've no idea if he's any good or simply a wind up and whether or not he expects to be taken seriously.

Within a minute he's described a woman as having "huge f****** knockers." I gave him another five minutes of similar language and binned him and his attitudes.


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## SkipdiverJohn (28 Jan 2021)

weareHKR said:


> Give _Hambini_ a watch on Youtube, he'll show you how good a high-end super-duper all singing dancing bike frame is...



He does praise the build quality and proper engineering tolerances of Look & Time bikes though, so its not just a slagfest. I get the impression he might not be too much of a Cervelo fan though....


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## cougie uk (28 Jan 2021)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Except they aren't. it's quite possible to buy a brand new car that will transport four people and a load of luggage/shopping etc, for less money than one high end road bike that will transport one person and is able to carry bugger all else.
> High end bikes are terrible value for money, especially when compared to motorised transport. What do you think costs more in engineering development, a racing motorcycle capable of close to 200 mph or a human powered racing bike? Most people would probably think the former, in which case why is a very fast motorcycle comparable in price to a high end carbon fibre road bike and not several times more expensive?



It's also quite possible to spend over 100k on a car that is just a two seater. So that's 10 times the price of a bike. 

No idea on motorbikes but I'd guess they don't minimise the weight as much as bicycles ? They have huge engines to help them and we only have ourselves. 

I've never said it's good value to buy a superbike. The difference in performance between a 5 and 10k bike would be minimal.


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## gzoom (28 Jan 2021)

I've been looking at what bike treat to get my self for big middle age birthday. Whilst I love my 10 year old Trek I find it impossible to justify spending £10k on a new Trek.

The biggest changes in road bike tech appears to be disc brakes and now hiding cables everywhere. A £3-4k Boardman appears to offer the same 'value for money'.

The only vague justification may be a partial electric one, but my Boardman eBike is 'only' £1k more expensive than the non electric version, so even a £10k eBike is hard to justify.

However if you can afford to spend £10k on a pedal bike why not? There are plenty of otherways to waste £10k.


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## SkipdiverJohn (28 Jan 2021)

High end motorised vehicles do minimise weight if they are performance-oriented.
The point I was making is you can't compare the amount of R&D that goes into making even the most basic motor vehicle with a push bike. You get a lot of bang for your buck if you buy a "low value" brand car. None of them are truly bad, even if brand snobbery means a lot of people will shun them. High end bicycles are grotesquely overpriced and overhyped for what they are, which is just a push bike when all said and done. If you compare a £1k bike to a £300 bike, then yes they are significantly better. But a £10k bike to a £1k bike? No, the incremental improvements are tiny in relation to the cost difference.


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## Chap sur le velo (28 Jan 2021)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> High end motorised vehicles do minimise weight if they are performance-oriented.
> The point I was making is you can't compare the amount of R&D that goes into making even the most basic motor vehicle with a push bike. You get a lot of bang for your buck if you buy a "low value" brand car. None of them are truly bad, even if brand snobbery means a lot of people will shun them. High end bicycles are grotesquely overpriced and overhyped for what they are, which is just a push bike when all said and done. If you compare a £1k bike to a £300 bike, then yes they are significantly better. But a £10k bike to a £1k bike? No, the incremental improvements are tiny in relation to the cost difference.


I fully acknowledge the accuracy of your facts. However buying a high end bike, unless you are a national standard racer, is really about personal choices of what you value ie. It's subjective and hence your objective facts will change no one's opinions.

A wise fool I know once told me that half the pleasure he got from the Monte Christi Cigars he owned was not in smoking them. It was knowing they were his, thinking about them at home for him to do as he pleased with them.


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## vickster (28 Jan 2021)

Chap sur le velo said:


> I fully acknowledge the accuracy of your facts. However buying a high end bike, unless you are a national standard racer, is really about personal choices of what you value ie. It's subjective and hence your objective facts will change no one's opinions.
> 
> A wise fool I know once told me that half the *pleasure he got from the Monte Christi Cigars he owned was not in smoking them. It was knowing they were his, thinking about them at home for him to do as he pleased with them.*


Was that Bill Clinton?


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## IanSmithCSE (28 Jan 2021)

Good morning,

For the last few years the aerodynamic efficiency of the frame and the wheels has been the latest big thing meaning that designs have quite a short life and the next generation actually has to be better rather than just different.

The bike that you linked to claims to need 30 watts less to get to 30 mph than the previous model and it seems reasonable to expect that it saves even more over a round tube steel bike. Interestingly it is "quite heavy" at around 7.5kg.

Whether or not the 30 watts saving applies in the real world with multiple wind directions is unknown to me. :-) and as someone who struggles to average over 20mph the saving for me would be around 10 watts or 5% or less, quite a bit more over a round tube steel bike. I could probably get that level of performance improvement in a month or so by training rather than just enjoying the ride if I were so inclined.

But if you compete and are at you peak already then you don't really have a choice, you almost have to buy one. 

So is the price unreasonable? Even if there were only three people working for two years, tooling costs and marketing, could easily run in to say £500k plus.

Dealers may be wanting close to a 100% mark-up as customers at these prices level are going to be picky and warranty claims need to be covered, so the complete bike may only be leaving the manufacturer at £5K

Whilst the market for bikes at this level does exist, as well as competitive riders there are also quite a large number of people for whom a £10k spend is inconsequential, a lot more for whom it is a reasonable considered purchase and a even more for whom buying it over 12/24 months makes it fairly painless. There are also quite a few options for these bikes so even at £10k retail they could still lose the makers money!

Clearly a big chunk of this bike can't change over say a £5k bikes as as far as I am aware Dura Ace is only available at one level, there isn't a pro-version and a retail version. Except perhaps in reality regarding availability of larger chain rings, currently even 56 tooth chain rings seem to be very available. :-)

Bye

Ian


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## matticus (28 Jan 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> or purchaser of a Vauxhall Corsa is likely to consider buying whatever Lewis Hamilton is driving round in circles at the moment.


There's an interesting difference between the car equivalent here:
We CAN buy the EF Nippo team race bikes and ride them on the road (or race them, occasionally, at very low additional cost). Hamilton's F1 title-winning merc is not road-legal :-). The EF Nippo bikes are just as practical on public roads as a £1k "entry" Boardman road bike.

(I know rally driving is a bit different, before some smart-arse mentions that  )


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## Rusty Rocket (28 Jan 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> I just checked the link you provided. The bike you linked to is as planned to be used by the EF Education Nippo team in 2021. So the answer to your question is yes, teams competing in the TdF "buy" this bike. But not from Evans, natch, as they get them from Cannondale as their equipment sponsor. So you can expect to see Hugh Carthy or Rigoberto Uran riding this, or a very similar, machine this year. If there is any racing, that is.
> 
> Of course all this is just there to dazzle you, as a newcomer to the market. You're no more expected to buy one of these than your average Primark shopper is expected to buy the latest haute couture modelled on the Paris catwalk, or purchaser of a Vauxhall Corsa is likely to consider buying whatever Lewis Hamilton is driving round in circles at the moment. What you _are_ expected to do is notice the name. And maybe favour that name when it comes to buying more modestly priced mass-market products.


I think you’ve hit the nail on the head - I did notice the name (having never heard of them before I started bike shopping about 2 weeks ago), and next time I see something from Cannondale I’ll probably take a second look.


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## MichaelW2 (28 Jan 2021)

I dont know if bike companies make much profit on their super premium bikes, or, like couture fashion it is used to promote the brand as a marketing tool.
Once you get beyond £2K you are getting very little extra for your dosh. Last year's top end Dura Ace groupset is this year's Ultegra. The premium carbon fibre allows frame builders to make frames so light they have to add weights to keep them UCI legal.
If I had £10k that had to be spent on one bike, I would seek out the specialist carbon builders such as Parlee, Sarto, etc. Some of these outfits build the 5K frames for big brands. They will build the bike you want regardless of UCI regulations.


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## CanucksTraveller (28 Jan 2021)

It's been said already but yes, it's diminishing returns. Once you get much above say, 800GBP the differences start to get smaller as the cost gets bigger. The two graph lines of cost and increased performance will tend to cross after a bit.
In the last decade I've spent roughly 3-400 quid on two ordinary hybrids that are absolutely fine bikes, and then I spent around the 1k to 1.5k mark twice, on one well equipped steel tourer with quite an ordinary / workmanlike drivetrain, and one carbon roadie with a "better" groupset. They are much better bikes, (even if there's nothing wrong with the hybrids). For me personally that's about my sweet spot; They're both really nice bikes that are made well, that ride really well, and do precisely everything I wanted from them. Much more than that price point, and I wouldn't really appreciate the few hundred grammes weight saving, or the slightly smoother shifting, or any of the other incremental gains that another 2, 4 or 8k pound coins might add.
It's clearly worth it to some people, whether it's for the slightly better performance, extra shineyness / better paint, lighter weight, badge cachet, even bragging rights among peers, whatever it might be. I couldn't justify it though, not with this engine.


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## lejogger (28 Jan 2021)

There are usually clear differences between bikes at all price points... although in some cases this may only be 'goodwill' that the frame manufacturer has accrued via its reputation as a sponsor of a top team, or as a boutique brand.

Very generally speaking, once you get to a price point that gets you a carbon frame (>£1-2k) you'll find cheap alloy finishing kit, low end components, and bog standard wheels. 
For the vast majority of riders this is absolutely fine for their riding needs, but we're not a society that simply buys what we need, we also buy what we like, what makes us feel good, and sometimes (depending on our individual psychology) what impresses our peers. 
As the price increases, so does the quality of all those additional bits. Are they 'necessary'? Probably not. Are they desirable to a lot of folk though? I'd say so. 

In 2009 (when I was first starting out) I spent £1k on a Boardman Team Carbon, that was an absolutely cracking bike. Over the course of the following years I had replaced the entire entry level SRAM Rival groupset (that was perfectly fine) with SRAM Red components (because they were lighter and smoother), the alloy bars and seat post with 3T carbon (because they were lighter and fancier), and upgraded the wheels to some deep section Fulcrums (because they rolled better and the freehub made a lovely clacky noise). 

The bike should have been perfect, but it wasn't (for me), because it still said 'Boardman' in big white letters. So for probably zero performance gain I bought a second hand Cervelo frameset, some even deeper section wheels and swapped everything over. 

For some people, the Boardman branding wouldn't have been an issue... and it's not an issue to me at all, generally. I still have a Boardman CX bike that I use in the winter, I bought the wife a Boardman as a first bike last year. I actually think they're great, and superb value for money (especially in the early days). But I always aspired to have something a bit 'fancier', or perhaps a more established name that felt a bit more 'accepted' on the club ride (not that anyone ever said anything negative about it). And also (and most importantly to me) that gave my loins a little flutter when I thought about going for a ride on it. 

It's this aspect of my personality that's driving me in my planning and saving for a titanium build that will ultimately replace the Boardman CX as a winter/tourer/commuter bike, relegating it to a gravelly pootler. I won't be spending £10k, but I'm potentially spending eyewatering amounts, if I end up going down the custom built frame route. 

The caveat is that this will be a bike for life. Titanium frames don't really change with fashion in quite the same way that carbon ones do. If you spend £10k on this season's aero frame, it might feel old next year when the new trends emerge. Look at the discontinued Venge, for example. Other than disc brakes and slightly wider tyre clearance, has there been much movement in titanium frames in the past 20 years? 

It's not for everyone, but I don't have any negative feelings to anyone spending their hard earned cash on whatever bike that makes them happy. Well, maybe jealousy.


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## nickyboy (28 Jan 2021)

If you're on £100k pa and have a chunk of savings then £10k isn't a big deal to spend on a bike. If you're used to spending £50k on a car it sounds like a reasonable price point. There are enough people in that bracket to make the market work. Happily spending £10k on a family holiday, same on a bike. Last thing they want is a bike the same as all the others on the road and they will pay a premium for exclusivity. Same as if you drive a Bentley

However, if that isn't the world you live in, £10k sounds like too much money to spend.


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## marzjennings (28 Jan 2021)

Most of the riders I know who buy top of the line bikes race them for a season or so and then sell them. So maybe spending 9k on a bike this season, race it, putting maybe a couple hundred miles on the bike, and then sell it for 6-7k. They feel that a budget of about 2-3k pa to have the lightest, fastest bike available is worth it to them. My last mtb was purchased by a local cat 1 rider, maybe retail about 8k, he got it through the store/team discount for 6.5k, maintained by the shop during the race season, and picked up by me for 4k. Great bike, ridden only by a cat 1 whippet so minimal abuse or damage. 

I'm looking for a new mtb for this year and my price cutoff seems to be about 5k. I like having a great full sus frame (1.5k), smooth front sus (1k), strong carbon wheels (1k), flawless drive train (1k) and bullet proof contact points (.5k).


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## Rusty Rocket (28 Jan 2021)

marzjennings said:


> Most of the riders I know who buy top of the line bikes race them for a season or so and then sell them. So maybe spending 9k on a bike this season, race it, putting maybe a couple hundred miles on the bike, and then sell it for 6-7k. They feel that a budget of about 2-3k pa to have the lightest, fastest bike available is worth it to them. My last mtb was purchased by a local cat 1 rider, maybe retail about 8k, he got it through the store/team discount for 6.5k, maintained by the shop during the race season, and picked up by me for 4k. Great bike, ridden only by a cat 1 whippet so minimal abuse or damage.
> 
> I'm looking for a new mtb for this year and my price cutoff seems to be about 5k. I like having a great full sus frame (1.5k), smooth front sus (1k), strong carbon wheels (1k), flawless drive train (1k) and bullet proof contact points (.5k).


That’s interesting, I’d assumed they’d be something you buy and keep for a while, not ship off after a season.
I guess at the very top of the range stuff like this where we’re probably talking ms in gear shifts and grams in weight saving the models become out of date a lot quicker than your “average” bikes.


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## Rusty Rocket (28 Jan 2021)

nickyboy said:


> If you're on £100k pa and have a chunk of savings then £10k isn't a big deal to spend on a bike. If you're used to spending £50k on a car it sounds like a reasonable price point. There are enough people in that bracket to make the market work. Happily spending £10k on a family holiday, same on a bike. Last thing they want is a bike the same as all the others on the road and they will pay a premium for exclusivity. Same as if you drive a Bentley
> 
> However, if that isn't the world you live in, £10k sounds like too much money to spend.


I think it’s less about whether it’s a bonkers amount of cash to spend (it’s clearly not for some lucky folk), but what you get for your money.
I get it with cars - I can see why a Bentley costs more than a VW, I guess as a complete noobie to bikes I struggled to see why 1 road bike that looks basically the same as another (to the untrained eye at least!) is 10 x the price.
Fair to say it’s an absolute minefield out there if you have money to spend, quite easy on a tight-ish budget to limit choices!


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## matticus (28 Jan 2021)

The small ads do suggest a lot of riders upgrade after very few miles. 
It's crazy - a 3K budget on equipment that you only race for a few hours in that year. I think very hard about a 3K bike that I plan to make last for years of weekend and all-day rides! :P Still, each to his own ...


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## matticus (28 Jan 2021)

Rusty Rocket said:


> I get it with cars - I can see why a Bentley costs more than a VW, I guess as a complete noobie to bikes I struggled to see why 1 road bike that looks basically the same as another (to the untrained eye at least!) is 10 x the price.


Much of the difference is down to visuals: your Bentley looks very different to a VW. But does Hamilton's Merc really look much different to the cars he is lapping? (apart from colour scheme!) There is a huge price difference there - and yet the cheaper car can still corner at 150mph.

(To a VERY untrained eye, Hamilton's car looks little different to a £10k 2nd-hand single-seater!)


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## kingrollo (28 Jan 2021)

Work how much you can afford to spend ...........then add £3k on.


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## vickster (28 Jan 2021)

Rusty Rocket said:


> I think it’s less about whether it’s a bonkers amount of cash to spend (it’s clearly not for some lucky folk), but what you get for your money.
> I get it with cars - I can see why a Bentley costs more than a VW, I guess as a complete noobie to bikes I struggled to see why 1 road bike that looks basically the same as another (to the untrained eye at least!) is 10 x the price.
> Fair to say it’s an absolute minefield out there if you have money to spend, quite easy on a tight-ish budget to limit choices!


Yes but VW vs Bentley you’re talking £100-150k difference not 5-10k. The Bentley isn’t 5k more


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## nickyboy (28 Jan 2021)

vickster said:


> Yes but VW vs Bentley you’re talking £100-150k difference not 5-10k. The Bentley isn’t 5k more


Bentley is 10x price of a VW. Equivalent is £10k bike is 10x price of £1k bike

The difference between a £10k bike and a £1k bike is, put simply, weight. Getting lighter components with the same strength is an expensive business. The bikes look, broadly, the same. But one is lighter than the other. Whether you want to pay another £9k to reduce bike weight by maybe a couple of kgs is a personal matter


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## cougie uk (28 Jan 2021)

matticus said:


> The small ads do suggest a lot of riders upgrade after very few miles.
> It's crazy - a 3K budget on equipment that you only race for a few hours in that year. I think very hard about a 3K bike that I plan to make last for years of weekend and all-day rides! :P Still, each to his own ...


It'd be interesting to see just how accurate those mileages are.

Racing miles might not be high but training miles should be.


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## Ian H (28 Jan 2021)

It's a long time since I raced, so I don't have a race bike. I still have TT bike, but probably getting rid of that as I am a less serious competitor nowadays. What I do have is several bespoke bikes made-to-measure, two in Ti and two in steel. Both the Ti frames I built up myself. but the two (newer) steel ones (both Halletts) I let Richard finish them to mutually agreed specs. The newest one is a club machine in stainless steel, good enough for club-runs, club TTs, and just feels like a delightfully fast ride.


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## CXRAndy (28 Jan 2021)

slowmotion said:


> My attitude is that above about £850, I 'd rather spend more money on the engine than the bike.



I agree, get a better Ebike


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## Ridgeway (28 Jan 2021)

I blame dentists


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## vickster (28 Jan 2021)

Ridgeway said:


> I blame dentists


Swiss bankers more like


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## Gibbo9 (29 Jan 2021)

This is a very interesting thread, more so due to the fact I am currently looking for a new bike myself and am finding huge price ranges of similar spec but different brand name. I'd expected that of course.

I do think it's all relative though. I moved to Taiwan last year and brought my road bike out with me. This place is built for cyclists, some of the riverside cycle paths are as wide as the roads back home. This really got me back onto the bike and I have fallen in love with cycling again. I get out every day if I can (only rain prevents this).

For the new bike I am prepared to pay up to 6k but I want all the mod cons for that, Di2, disc brakes, tubeless tyres etc and I have found plenty of LBS that are happy to build bikes for me. Most important though is the fact that it needs to look good, naturally.

I see the new buy as a minimum 5 year bike (same as my current one) which is 1200 per year over that time period, I spend more on beer annually than that but I get much more enjoyment from being out on the bike.

Money well spent, for me at least.


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## Kingfisher101 (29 Jan 2021)

Its only too much if you cant afford it or never really use it or both.
If its sat doing nothing you have wasted your money no matter how much it was really. If you use your bike a lot no matter what the cost then its money well spent because it gets you out and is good for your health, saving bus/train fare etc.
Obviously if you just want a bike for local errands its a bit silly paying thousands but upto a Grand is fine I think. The most I've spent is £1100 on a bike. I usually get them around the £600-£800 Mark then sell them on when I get bored and get another.
Life is for living and money is for spending, you cant take it with you when your dead.


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## matticus (29 Jan 2021)

Did anyone ever go to their death bed wishing they had cycled less?


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## vickster (29 Jan 2021)

matticus said:


> Did anyone ever go to their death bed wishing they had cycled less?


or bought fewer bikes


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## matticus (29 Jan 2021)

vickster said:


> or bought fewer bikes


There are no signs of my father wishing this, and he is leaving it pretty damn late ...


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## Rusty Rocket (29 Jan 2021)

matticus said:


> Did anyone ever go to their death bed wishing they had cycled less?


No!


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## si_c (29 Jan 2021)

I have nothing to contribute to this thread. I'd like a £10k bike though, but then I'd want the new model next year too.


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## Ming the Merciless (29 Jan 2021)

matticus said:


> Did anyone ever go to their death bed wishing they had cycled less?



Depends how they died. Maybe they wished they’d braked more 😳


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## matticus (29 Jan 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Depends how they died. Maybe they wished they’d braked more 😳


NEVER!!! I concur with The Texan Cyclist's view on preferred way to die.


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## Sniper68 (29 Jan 2021)

How much is too much?
How long is a piece of string?
I've built up my last 4 or 5 bikes so I've ended up paying more than I would off-peg but I've got exactly what I want.
Would I pay £12K for a new Dogma?Probably if I liked the look and it had exactly what I want.I would only spend what I wouldn't miss and would never get a bike on credit.
Buying a bike is like any other purchase really.If you can afford it yes,if not no.
I've just replaced my car.When I bought the last one in 2013 I paid £13k.That was the most I'd ever spent on a car and said I'd never spend more than that again........this time I had to spend almost £20K to get a newer similarly specced model.That's life though isn't it
My current 'best' bike is a Titanium Lynskey that I built with the intentions of it being a forever bike.It probably will be but I now fancy another Carbon bike.........N+1..........I knew I should have kept my Canyon Ultimate..


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## rogerzilla (29 Jan 2021)

You can build a bike the same weight and with the same tyres as a £10,000 one for a little over £1000, if you're clever. It will go pretty much the same.

Things that add lots to the price: Di2 (do you need it?), deep section wheels (nice, but not a benefit in all situations), disc brakes (have their pros and cons, really not necessary if you ride in the dry, which you probably will for a best bike!), fancy aero finishing kit (are you that fast?).


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## PaulSB (29 Jan 2021)

A friend of mine summed it up:

"Life's too short for shoot bikes" 🤣


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## SkipdiverJohn (29 Jan 2021)

PaulSB said:


> A friend of mine summed it up:
> 
> "Life's too short for shoot bikes" 🤣



Or is it more a case of "life's too short to put up with others poking fun at me for not riding a mega expensive bike like theirs"? I just don't care how much pisstaking I receive, for being, shall we say, somewhat eccentric and non-conformist. 
One slight problem with the shoot bikes argument is that once you exclude the outright junk quality BSOs from the equation, what remains simply isn't shoot, except in the minds of those afflicted with incurable cycling snobbery. I ride all sorts that range from the new equivalent of around £200 to just over £1,000 in todays money and if all are equally well sorted the differences really aren't that huge with a price multiple of five and a very low base. If you then increase that by a further factor of 10, so a total multiple of 50, the incremental differences will be even smaller.


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## PaulSB (29 Jan 2021)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Or is it more a case of "life's too short to put up with others poking fun at me for not riding a mega expensive bike like theirs"? I just don't care how much pisstaking I receive, for being, shall we say, somewhat eccentric and non-conformist.
> One slight problem with the shoot bikes argument is that once you exclude the outright junk quality BSOs from the equation, what remains simply isn't shoot, except in the minds of those afflicted with incurable cycling snobbery. I ride all sorts that range from the new equivalent of around £200 to just over £1,000 in todays money and if all are equally well sorted the differences really aren't that huge with a price multiple of five and a very low base. If you then increase that by a further factor of 10, so a total multiple of 50, the incremental differences will be even smaller.


It's a joke, nothing else.


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## rogerzilla (29 Jan 2021)

One big fear with a £10,000 bike is that you'll look like the guy with all the gear and no idea. If you're twice the age of the average TdF winner, it just looks like a midlife crisis purchase. Of course, if you're a 25 year-old Cat 1 racer, go for it.


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## 12boy (30 Jan 2021)

My primary use of a bike since I no longer work, and therefore no longer commute, is exercise and fun. One of my favorite rides is my no-Ti Brompton. Another is a Surly Steamroller. I've been so deprived I've never ridden a carbon or Ti bike in the 160k+ miles I've ridden in the last 60 years or so, but I have had a few that were light and I usually have them all working exactly as they were supposed to. I certainly cannot deny that there is something about handmade, well crafted steel frames that rings my bell. I can set one up with relatively lower tier components and get decades of cycling pleasure from it even if it might seem portly or even sluggish to you. 
But, I set the bar low. When my ancient VW croaked one Wyoming winter and I got a 2 wheel drive stripped Toyota pickup, I was overjoyed to have a real heater.
If you can afford a 10 k bike, and you can tell the differences between it and a 5k bike, or simply want it, get it and as many more as you fancy.


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## gzoom (30 Jan 2021)

rogerzilla said:


> One big fear with a £10,000 bike is that you'll look like the guy with all the gear and no idea. If you're twice the age of the average TdF winner, it just looks like a midlife crisis purchase.



Although spending £10k a bike for a midlife crisis is much cheaper than buying a 911 or having an affair than follow up with a divorce.......the latter makes a £10k spend on a bike look like pocket change, the former really does stand you out as having zero imagination .


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## Tripster (30 Jan 2021)

Spend what you want and can afford. If its a short term purchase then spend wisely, if its a forever bike then buy what you want. Its like a smoker telling you you are foolish for spending X number of pounds on a push iron, I’d want an engine for that...... could have bought a high end motor cash for what they waste on cancer sticks over the years but its their choice, your choice, and we all spend money differently. We all have interests and see fit to indulge that how we wish.


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## Tripster (30 Jan 2021)

Kingfisher101 said:


> Its only too much if you cant afford it or never really use it or both.


If you can afford it bit never really use it, why would it be too much ? I have a motorbike that does maybe 1000 miles a year, last year I managed to use it once ! I have always had them since I was 16 and love the one I have. It costs me nothing other than insurance & service each year. The times I ride it I am never more happier, content and free of social anxiety and stress. For that its worth it. Worth it to me. Which is all that should matter to any of us. So I disagree if you don't use it, its too much


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## Ming the Merciless (30 Jan 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> Some of you spend too much time worrying about how other people spend their money. Chill. You'll give yourself an ulcer.



Or you can upgrade to the 2022 Ulcer GTE for £12,000


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## Sniper68 (30 Jan 2021)

rogerzilla said:


> One big fear with a £10,000 bike is that you'll look like the guy with all the gear and no idea.


That can be said for any purchase really!?
Does a 50+year old born-again-biker really need a 190mph+ Hyper Sports bike?
Does a 50+ year old mid-life-crisis type really need a Porsche 911?
Does an Angler really need to spend £3k on a Pole?
So long as they're used who cares?
A mate of mine has 10 bikes.These inlude a 90s Pinarello,a 90s Fondriest and a 90s Colnago.The Colnago was bought from a seller in Italy on ebay and has never seen British Tarmac.It has been hung on his bedroom wall for the last 14 years!His last purchase was a £1000 Pro carbon from Planet X in 2019 for a trip to Mallorca.He rarely rides and the Pro Carbon was only ridden for that week!


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## rogerzilla (30 Jan 2021)

A 50+ year old can still get maximum performance out of a hyper sports (motor) bike, a Porsche or a pole. He'd struggle in a cat 4 race on a top-end pedal bike.


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## Tripster (30 Jan 2021)

rogerzilla said:


> A 50+ year old can still get maximum performance out of a hyper sports (motor) bike, a Porsche or a pole. He'd struggle in a cat 4 race on a top-end pedal bike.


No 50 year old can get max performance out of a hyper sports motor bike unless its on a track and his name is John Mcguiness (not yet 50) or Ron Haslam. Average person of riding ability would struggle to get 50% and never come close to a modern bikes limits
I have a bike that does 150mph, has lean angle ABS, multi traction control modes, track modes, anti wheelie blab blah blah. Do I need it, is it necessary, can I find the limits of the bike and ride to them ? No on all counts but thats what a modern bike is now. So because I dont need it I shouldnt buy it


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## Colin Grigson (30 Jan 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> That might be _your_ big fear. Not everyone has the same worries.


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## Sniper68 (30 Jan 2021)

Tripster said:


> No 50 year old can get max performance out of a hyper sports motor bike unless its on a track and his name is John Mcguiness (not yet 50) or Ron Haslam. Average person of riding ability would struggle to get 50% and never come close to a modern bikes limits
> I have a bike that does 150mph, has lean angle ABS, multi traction control modes, track modes, anti wheelie blab blah blah. Do I need it, is it necessary, can I find the limits of the bike and ride to them ? No on all counts but thats what a modern bike is now. So because I dont need it I shouldnt buy it


Same for the Porsche.Mr average would end up on it's roof in a ditch well before the car hit it's limits if driving on the road!
A keen amateur Angler won't fish any better with a pole that's £3k as opposed to one that's £1K.it's a skill/dedication/talent thing.
I shoot Air rifles.My set up was around £1500 new.Indoor I like to think I'm quite good.Am I any better with a £3-4K competition rifle.....er no.I'm simply not good enough to compete at the highest level.I'd still like a really nice rifle though
There's literally dozens of things we have in everyday life that we don't use to full potential but we still buy them.


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## matticus (30 Jan 2021)

Sniper68 said:


> Same for the Porsche.Mr average would end up on it's roof in a ditch well before the car hit it's limits if driving on the road!


As I see it, the point is that Mr Porsche could get the thing up-to 155mph* with no skill. And he could turn all the gadgets on, and drool over the leather etc ... So at least _in his mind_, he is making use of the extra features.

I have absolutely no idea what car Mr @Dogtrousers would drive 

*While the future next Lewis Hamilton is blown into the weeds in his £8k _little boys car._


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## FishFright (30 Jan 2021)

If you need credit that takes forever to pay off then it's too much . 

Otherwise buy what you want and enjoy it as much as suits you , it's only money .


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## Tripster (30 Jan 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> Oh dear. I fear now that I'm not worthy of my Spa Steel Audax bike because I wouldn't be able to ride PBP or LEL.
> 
> I'd better go and trade it in for a crap bike to match my crapness. To guard against the off chance that someone I don't know whose opinion I don't care about might think I have all the gear and no idea.


I have just been into my garage and removed the left pedal from my 300 quid single speed I bought 4 years ago. I also cocked the handlebars slightly out of line, buckled the rear wheel, removed a few spokes and ensured the chain falls off every few hundred yards whilst trying to pedal with one foot..... now it matches my crap ness and I feel better I have a purchase that suits my ability. The Mason Resolution will be up for sale immediately but only to be sold to some one who can prove they have an entry to at a minimum the C2C in a day but preferably the Transcontinental race otherwise they don’t _need _or _deserve _so cannot have.


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## Ming the Merciless (30 Jan 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> Oh dear. I fear now that I'm not worthy of my Spa Steel Audax bike because I wouldn't be able to ride PBP or LEL.
> 
> I'd better go and trade it in for a crap bike to match my crapness. To guard against the off chance that someone I don't know whose opinion I don't care about might think I have all the gear and no idea.



Of course you can attempt LEL on whatever bike you have. The beauty of audax , no one looks down on you, whether you succeed or fail in your endeavour.


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## matticus (30 Jan 2021)

In every cycling* niche, about 5% are either gear snobs, or inverse snobs. The vast majority really don't care, but they make much less noise!

(probably the same in other sports, I suspect.)


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## Tripster (30 Jan 2021)

matticus said:


> In every cycling* niche, about 5% are either gear snobs, or inverse snobs. The vast majority really don't care, but they make much less noise!
> 
> (probably the same in other sports, I suspect.)


Stats, facts, bar charts or graphs from reputable source to support this ?


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## Ming the Merciless (30 Jan 2021)

PaulSB said:


> It's a joke, nothing else.



We both know that, but people with shoot bikes have no sense of humour 😆


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## Ming the Merciless (30 Jan 2021)

Personally I’m glad at the variety of bikes people ride. It opens up the conversation if you see something unusual or rare. For a start we need more penny farthings out there.


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## matticus (30 Jan 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> We both know that, but people with shoot bikes have no sense of humour 😆


Shoot bikes or soot bikes?


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## Ming the Merciless (30 Jan 2021)

matticus said:


> Shoot bikes or soot bikes?



They do overlap in the Venn diagram


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## Juan Kog (30 Jan 2021)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Or is it more a case of "life's too short to put up with others poking fun at me for not riding a mega expensive bike like theirs"? I just don't care how much pisstaking I receive, for being, shall we say, somewhat eccentric and non-conformist.
> One slight problem with the shoot bikes argument is that once you exclude the outright junk quality BSOs from the equation, what remains simply isn't shoot, except in the minds of those afflicted with incurable cycling snobbery. I ride all sorts that range from the new equivalent of around £200 to just over £1,000 in todays money and if all are equally well sorted the differences really aren't that huge with a price multiple of five and a very low base. If you then increase that by a further factor of 10, so a total multiple of 50, the incremental differences will be even smaller.


Skippy you come on with your eccentric and non-conformist approach to cycling because you enjoy getting a reaction. I have suspected for some time that SkipdiverJohn is an alter ego , you are in fact an out and out MAMIL with a designer velo studio packed with at least 6 £10000 bikes ,and none are more than 2 years old.


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## SkipdiverJohn (30 Jan 2021)

Juan Kog said:


> I have suspected for some time that SkipdiverJohn is an alter ego , you are in fact an out and out MAMIL with a designer velo studio packed with at least 6 £10000 bikes ,and none are more than 2 years old.



You would be extremely wrong there because the most money I have ever paid for a bike in my lifetime is the modern day equivalent of £315, and the newest one I own is one of the very final Nottingham-built Raleigh frames from 1999. No carbon fibre, no aluminium, no aero, no lycra, no clipless, no Strava, no Zwift, no power meters, no turbo trainers.


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## classic33 (31 Jan 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Personally I’m glad at the variety of bikes people ride. It opens up the conversation if you see something unusual or rare. *For a start we need more penny farthings out there. *


Having ridden one in traffic, I'd say they're not suited to town/city use with all the traffic lights*. Open roads a different thing altogether.

*They are handy for leaning on whilst waiting for the lights to change.


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## Zipp2001 (31 Jan 2021)

I say spend what your comfortable spending on a bike. If it's a few hundred or a few thousands that's all up to you. The main thing is getting out and riding your bike. Who cares what other people think or say, just ride and have fun. I always enjoy seeing some old classic steel bikes still out there rolling around. That being said I'm a carbon, aero, spandex wearing rider who enjoys riding my bike. I still nod and wave, say hi and stop and help anyone stranded on the side of the road. Weather it's a bmx, cruiser, recumbent, fat bike, single speed, time trial, road, or ebike were out there riding and that's all that counts. Not the money spent.


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## simongt (31 Jan 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> It opens up the conversation if you see something unusual or rare.


To me that's the pleasure of doing the occasional Norwich 100. You come across a huge cross section of bikes & riders, from the 'I'm determined to break my last years record' nuts to the folk who've borrowed a bike that probably hasn't been ridden in years, but they're there to likewise to enjoy the day, the scenery and the varied company on the journey.


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## proletaratOne (9 Apr 2021)

Tripster said:


> No 50 year old can get max performance out of a hyper sports motor bike unless its on a track and his name is John Mcguiness (not yet 50) or Ron Haslam. Average person of riding ability would struggle to get 50% and never come close to a modern bikes limits
> I have a bike that does 150mph, has lean angle ABS, multi traction control modes, track modes, anti wheelie blab blah blah. Do I need it, is it necessary, can I find the limits of the bike and ride to them ? No on all counts but thats what a modern bike is now. So because I dont need it I shouldnt buy it


This is extremely true. A modern race(motor cycle) bike has gotten soooo good. And it’s been that way for years . In the 2000s I raced 600. Even among very very skilled track riders it is rare that the bike is a limiting factor. Although some extra horses can really help make up for poorer corners


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## DRM (9 Apr 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> Oh dear. I fear now that I'm not worthy of my Spa Steel Audax bike because I wouldn't be able to ride PBP or LEL.
> 
> I'd better go and trade it in for a crap bike to match my crapness. To guard against the off chance that someone I don't know whose opinion I don't care about might think I have all the gear and no idea.


Fear not, I will accept the above bicycle, and safely dispose of it for you,


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## Lovacott (10 Apr 2021)

Rusty Rocket said:


> Just been browsing the usual websites to see what I can’t afford (or need, but that’s irrelevant) and can see that it’s easy to blow a grand on a bike.
> Carbon fibre, higher spec components etc all go towards paying more, but is anyone seriously spending nearly £10k on a bike? What’s the difference between this and say a £2k or even £5k bike?



Back in the seventies, I was a Hi Fi freak. I had grown up listening to a clunky old radiogram and it seemed like every five minutes, someone came up with something which would improve sound quality.

I blew a lot of money trying to perfect my setup as soon as things were released. I then watched those improvements drop in price within a few months as they were superseded by something better.

When home PC's became the rage in the early nineties, I stayed just a touch behind the technology curve and saved a small fortune.

I've just bought a Carbon Fibre bike for a grand and it's a decent improvement on my steel framed bike when it comes to features, weight and speed. Well worth the grand I'd say.

I'm sure that a £10k bike would be better than what I'm on today, but I'm not so sure it would be ten times better? But whatever, in ten years, I will be able to buy that ten grand bike for 500 quid.

If I was a multibillionaire, I'd probably pay for first dibs on any new bike tech, but as I'm just a pleb with a job, I'll stick to paying pennies for the trickle down technology.


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## SkipdiverJohn (10 Apr 2021)

There's people with more money than sense, and there's people with more sense than money....


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## GuyBoden (10 Apr 2021)

I'm sure that the Shimano Alivio groupset for mtb or Sora for road will do the job just fine for the vast majority of riders on this forum. In my opinion, if you're a heavy weight like me, you would be better getting strong components rather than lightweight components.

If I was young and racing regularly, I'd buy the most advanced racing cycle gear I could afford and upgrade all the time.


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## Arrowfoot (10 Apr 2021)

Setting aside high performance, the frame is the least important part for an average person. You can do well with steel, alloy, carbon and ti. It's the moving parts that delivers the difference and the comfort.

You can buy a decent frame that you are geometrically comfortable with, even second hand and get a real good groupset and great wheels. A fully aligned bottom bracket with the best bearings affordable is must and a proper seat (pay well for it) and you have a great ride.

Carbon frames have the widest range in terms of pricing even though they are manufactured by the same set of factories in the Fast East. The difference is due to marketing.

I did note that Ti guys seems to have done their sums right if they are not racing. If you are in hilly terrain or into race performance or weight challenged a carbon is a must. But not the expensive stuff. If you are in the wider Thames catchment all other bikes frames are perfectly fine.

If you are not racing , you can get a fantastic well branded bike for under £2.5k. You can up the wheels for that little bit extra.

The power meter and timings do not lie, it will tell if the frame is placebo or not with the same set of moving parts.

Ps. there is reason why UCI rules require teams to use commercially available bikes. This is unlike F1. You can guess why.


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## SkipdiverJohn (10 Apr 2021)

GuyBoden said:


> I'm sure that the Shimano Alivio groupset for mtb or Sora for road will do the job just fine for the vast majority of riders on this forum.



All any transmission parts need is to be sufficiently well made that they change gear smoothly and reliably. On my old Raleigh MTB from 1991 with 200GS, the changes are so smooth I sometimes have to glance down at the freewheel to double check that it did shift. So long as you ease off the power, you never get a clunky change. The bike has been well used, too, both by me and whoever owned it before. 
My "best" Raleigh hybrids from memory are Altus/Alivio mechanicals and they are also super smooth if operated with some mechanical sympathy. A ham-fisted muppet can make any bike appear to be crude, and a sympathetic rider can get a smooth ride out of a cheap bike.


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## Salty seadog (10 Apr 2021)

shep said:


> I would say there's a bigger difference between a 3k and a 1k bike than say a 5k and 8k bike, this is pure opinion though and I don't have any scientific evidence or links to anything to prove it.



The "law of diminishing returns" supports your opinion.


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## Lovacott (10 Apr 2021)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> All any transmission parts need is to be sufficiently well made that they change gear smoothly and reliably. On my old Raleigh MTB from 1991 with 200GS, the changes are so smooth I sometimes have to glance down at the freewheel to double check that it did shift. So long as you ease off the power, you never get a clunky change. The bike has been well used, too, both by me and whoever owned it before.
> My "best" Raleigh hybrids from memory are Altus/Alivio mechanicals and they are also super smooth if operated with some mechanical sympathy. A ham-fisted muppet can make any bike appear to be crude, and a sympathetic rider can get a smooth ride out of a cheap bike.



The biggest learning experience I've had over the last year has been with my bike gears.

A year ago, I was destroying my drivetrain by crashing into the totally wrong gear under load and making the worst gear selections I could possibly make in every situation.

Now, I am selecting the next gear sequence in my head 100 yards before I need to do it. I've mastered the art of maintaining momentum whilst shifting by easing off just a tad on the pedal power.

I could detail every gear change I make on a map of my route including adjustments for wind direction and speed.

All that said, I now seem to be able to change gear at the right time without giving it any thought. Like putting one foot in front of the other when walking.

For anyone taking up biking this year, take a bit of time to get to know how your drivetrain works. It will make your commutes so much easier and more enjoyable.


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## bagpuss (10 Apr 2021)

Someone once said to me ," Its no good having a £1,000 bike if you have only got £100 pair of legs! .....things have gone up since then .
Then again I have never had my legs valued? .I say have the bike you will get the most pleasure from . We are only riding on this earth for a short time .


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## CharleyFarley (10 Apr 2021)

I buy what I fancy, but if the price tag is more than £729.30, then I no longer fancy it. Why that price? Well, I'm in the USA, and those pounds work out to $1,000. I made an exception when I bought a Specialized Fatboy for £1294 ($1700). I had already bought a Sun fat bike for £600 before I realized I should have broken the bank and got the Specialized. The Sun bike had a hub gear (3, I think) but had a lug for a derailleur. Before I took it home, I paid the bike shop to customize it with a derailleur for an extra £75. It wasn't good, and the Sun company said that it wasn't made to take a derailleur even though it had a lug for one. I've had this fatty for 4 1/2 years and put 10,000 miles (16000 km) on it.

In the meanwhile I took a fancy to a bike shop quality 7-speed Electra beach cruiser for £365. I modified it with metal mudguards, replaced the crazy MegaRange freewheel with a 14-28 freewheel, and changed the crankset for one which I could put a smaller chain ring on it. Put narrow bars on it, and swapped the twist shifter for a lever type. Also put an adjustable quill stem on it to bring the bars closer to me.

I think I'm settled, now, meaning no more bikes. I'm too old to consider any more. Judging by the prices I'm seeing on this page, I think bikes in the US are cheaper than in the UK.


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## bagpuss (11 Apr 2021)

Someone mentioned horses a few posts back .I know I could do with a couple up front to help me up some of the Derbyshire hills🐎🐎🚴‍♂️


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## Ming the Merciless (11 Apr 2021)

bagpuss said:


> Someone mentioned horses a few posts back .I know I could do with a couple up front to help me up some of the Derbyshire hills🐎🐎🚴‍♂️



A couple of Clydesdales ?


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## biggs682 (11 Apr 2021)

Never spent more than £450 
Current most expensive one cost me is £240
No way could i justify much more even though i can afford it


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## DCBassman (11 Apr 2021)

Spend what thou wilt, shall be the whole of the law.


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## SkipdiverJohn (11 Apr 2021)

DCBassman said:


> Spend what thou wilt, shall be the whole of the law.



A slight misquote of the original methinks.....


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## DCBassman (11 Apr 2021)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> A slight misquote of the original methinks.....


Precisely so...


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## CharleyFarley (11 Apr 2021)

biggs682 said:


> Never spent more than £450
> Current most expensive one cost me is £240
> No way could i justify much more even though i can afford it



I went low, about three years ago, with a Schwinn 3rd Avenue, 700C, 21-speed. It was £138 but it came with a lot of good reviews. (Beware of lots of good reviews.) I didn't expect much for that kind of money, so I wasn't disappointed when it came. Out of the box, it looked good. Put it together, and then found neither of the tires would stay inflated, both going down in seconds. The tubes were made of some kind of gritty material and wouldn't take a patch. They were also much too small to fit the tires. Pumping them up was what caused them to burst. The tires had barely discernible treads and were 'hairy.' So down to the bike shop for new tires and tubes.

While out on a ride, about seven miles from home, the front derailleur came loose and rubbed against the chain. The pinch bolt just rounded off when I put a wrench to it, so I had to bend it away from the chain to get home.

The saddle was a piece of junk so I replaced it with a good one. The twist shifters were very poor so I swapped them for levers. After getting mucky rain water splashed up my back I put mudguards on it. Next, I bought a wheel truing stand and a spoke tension gauge because the wheels were out of true. By time I was done, I had a good bike but at a high cost. Then when I tried to part exchange it for a new bike in a bike shop, they refused it because it had to be "bike shop quality." Schwinn was once a good brand in the USA but that is no longer the case.

They say you get what you pay for. I suppose you do, but I sold that Schwinn and went to the bike shop to get my £365 "bike shop quality" beach cruiser. At 960 km both wheels started to grind and I had to replace the ball bearings. Then the headset got me concerned because if I stood next to the bike and turned the steering from side to side, it had what felt like a detent in the straight ahead position. I pulled it apart and found the problem was dirty and inadequate grease. The bearings were good, otherwise. So new grease fixed that problem.

At least I can do these things, myself, and don't have to keep running to the bike shop.


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## Gibbo9 (12 Apr 2021)

I have now managed to buy the new bike I was looking for. I really took my time in shopping around and eventually plumped for a Pinarello Prince FX with Di2 disc and a few other add ons. Total cost was just shy of 6k. Has it been worth it? Absolutely every single penny.

I have been amazed at the difference between this and my old bike (Kuota Kobalt). The handling and pick up speed is what has shocked me the most, the new bike reacts immediately to everything I ask it to do. Now I am 50 years old so I am never going to break any speed records but prior to getting the new bike I took the old one out on a few favourite routes to set quick times (for me). I have just this morning done one of those routes on the new bike, at a distance of only 18km I managed to take over 4 minutes off my best time while riding the new bike.

For me though it's not about trying to go fast but more enjoying the ride. It's very hilly where I am so I need something to get me up without killing me and down safely. This new bike does that and it is an absolute joy to ride.


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## PaulSB (12 Apr 2021)

CharleyFarley said:


> I went low, about three years ago, with a Schwinn 3rd Avenue, 700C, 21-speed. It was £138 but it came with a lot of good reviews. (Beware of lots of good reviews.) I didn't expect much for that kind of money, so I wasn't disappointed when it came. Out of the box, it looked good. Put it together, and then found neither of the tires would stay inflated, both going down in seconds. The tubes were made of some kind of gritty material and wouldn't take a patch. They were also much too small to fit the tires. Pumping them up was what caused them to burst. The tires had barely discernible treads and were 'hairy.' So down to the bike shop for new tires and tubes.
> 
> While out on a ride, about seven miles from home, the front derailleur came loose and rubbed against the chain. The pinch bolt just rounded off when I put a wrench to it, so I had to bend it away from the chain to get home.
> 
> ...


With respect what do you expect from bikes sold at these prices? I don't know anything of taxation or retailing in the States but these prices are so low there's no money to pay for any quality parts.

In the UK we have VAT which is a sales tax of 20%. Retailers in my experience operate on margins in the region of 50% and upwards.

Schwinn wholesale cost £80 +50% retail margin = £120 + VAT 20% = £140

The wholesale cost of £80 would include manufacturing costs, distribution cost and wholesale margin. It's impossible to make a bike of any quality for these sums.


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## gzoom (12 Apr 2021)

Interesting to see unless you can smash out over 25mph average all the fancy expensive aero stuff on bikes pretty much makes no difference....so its really a case of working on the legs


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## CharleyFarley (12 Apr 2021)

PaulSB said:


> With respect what do you expect from bikes sold at these prices? I don't know anything of taxation or retailing in the States but these prices are so low there's no money to pay for any quality parts.


Like I said, I didn't expect much for the money. I knew what I'd be getting into.



PaulSB said:


> In the UK we have VAT which is a sales tax of 20%. Retailers in my experience operate on margins in the region of 50% and upwards.


I lived in the UK for the first 32 years of my life and I was well aware of the time they removed purchase tax and started VAT. The one thing they didn't remove PT from was petrol, which was already a huge tax. Then they added VAT to that so we paid tax on a tax. And when I mentioned it to people, they looked at me as though I was nuts. It probably explains why petrol in the UK is so expensive.



PaulSB said:


> The wholesale cost of £80 would include manufacturing costs, distribution cost and wholesale margin. It's impossible to make a bike of any quality for these sums.


I fully understand that such a low cost for a bike would be low quality. I knew that when I ordered it, with the understanding that it would need work. If I'd had to take it to a bike shop to have the work done, I wouldn't have bought it. I also said in my O.P. to beware of lots of good reviews. That's a pretty good sign of shills trying to sell a poor quality product. 

There was a website set up to judge pages of reviews, and these Amazon reviews were judged as false, needing caution. I found that website _after _I'd bought the bike, but I was suspicious of the reviews _before _I bought it. So I put the work into upgrading the Schwinn and when I was done, it was a good bike. I'd even go so far as to say it was as good as an equivalent bike shop quality bike with the same components. I took a friend to the LBS and he chose a comfort bike, paying $600 (£440) for it. The thing is, my Schwinn was an experiment to see what I'd get for the money, and what it would cost to make it into a good bike. The experience I gained from upgrading it was worth it.


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## CharleyFarley (12 Apr 2021)

PaulSB said:


> ...I don't know anything of taxation or retailing in the States but these prices are so low there's no money to pay for any quality parts.
> 
> In the UK we have VAT which is a sales tax of 20%.


Our sales tax is 6% plus 1% for public transport, making a total of 7%. I used to live in Delaware with no sales tax.


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## nickyboy (12 Apr 2021)

gzoom said:


> Interesting to see unless you can smash out over 25mph average all the fancy expensive aero stuff on bikes pretty much makes no difference....so its really a case of working on the legs


As soon as you hit 9mph the dominant form of resistance when cycling is wind resistance


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## CharleyFarley (12 Apr 2021)

nickyboy said:


> As soon as you hit 9mph the dominant form of resistance when cycling is wind resistance


That's about the speed I attain on both my fat bike and cruiser. I'm not into performance, just a casual rider. I like to look around as I ride. As I ride around our county, I see things that drivers miss. We've got a new highway being built and it has overpasses over overpasses, and I like to stop and photograph it as it's proceeding.


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## matticus (12 Apr 2021)

nickyboy said:


> As soon as you hit 9mph the dominant form of resistance when cycling is wind resistance


And the time you spend _below _9mph tends to be the dominant factor in your _overall _speed.

:P


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## matticus (12 Apr 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> Especially the time you spend sitting around eating pasties. (And filing away receipts  )




I once heard the phrase "_wasting time eating_". Needless to say I was horrified!

(Don't forget the time spent unpacking/packing your aero seat-pack. Or watching your buddy doing same ... )


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## SkipdiverJohn (13 Apr 2021)

PaulSB said:


> With respect what do you expect from bikes sold at these prices?
> .......It's impossible to make a bike of any quality for these sums.



That's why I always buy mine secondhand, apart from the fact I only want steel anyway.
Pre-virus, I could choose to spend £100 on a new BSO or not much better than a BSO, or I could buy something high quality used, maybe fit some new Schwalbe tyres, and still have change out of £100 afterwards.
A 30 year old 531 frame on a bike that once cost new the equivalent of £1,000 or more in today's money, is still going to ride like a £1,000+ machine today. OK, you may have to live with a few scratches and scuffs on the paint as it isn't factory fresh, but then I'm not overly precious about mine anyway, barring not wanting them to get nicked or badly bashed up. Once you get to a four digit price point, I really don't believe there is any meaningful gain apart from miniscule weight reductions, from going any higher than that. I'm not pro racing, so paying at least an extra £1k per pound of saved weight, is just extravagant nonsense. I could achieve the same outcome by visiting the toilet or not eating immediately before I go for a ride - or going out with an empty water bottle and only filling it from a graveyard tap when I'm actually thirsty.


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## Ian H (13 Apr 2021)

There seems to be a false assumption that 'top-end' necessarily means racing.


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## SkipdiverJohn (13 Apr 2021)

Ian H said:


> There seems to be a false assumption that 'top-end' necessarily means racing.



It's not really a false assumption though. You will not find many rack and mudguard equipped touring bikes with price tags in the range of £5 to 10k! 
All the expensive stuff is performance-oriented, not practicality-oriented. They don't bang on about being able to take 38mm tyres with mudguards whilst having panniers front and rear do they? All the high end stuff promotes aero performance and light weight, not long distance comfort or all-weather capability whilst carrying a load.


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## Ian H (13 Apr 2021)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> It's not really a false assumption though. You will not find many rack and mudguard equipped touring bikes with price tags in the range of £5 to 10k!
> All the expensive stuff is performance-oriented, not practicality-oriented. They don't bang on about being able to take 38mm tyres with mudguards whilst having panniers front and rear do they? All the high end stuff promotes aero performance and light weight, not long distance comfort or all-weather capability whilst carrying a load.


Note the word 'necessarily'. Take a look at Mason bikes (for example). Or check out custom builders such as Dave Yates and Richard Hallett.


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## proletaratOne (14 Apr 2021)

bagpuss said:


> Someone mentioned horses a few posts back .I know I could do with a couple up front to help me up some of the Derbyshire hills🐎🐎🚴‍♂️




Soooo uncool

Now forever and a day when I’m on a steep climb I’m gonna be thinking how nice it would be to be hooked up to a horse


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## Teamfixed (14 Apr 2021)

There seems to be a slow down on used bikes recently. On baye for example there is a barely used Evans carbon tiagra for £400 and its been relisted. Im not saying its super duper but looks like a decent buy. Small size though.
Btw I have bikes with carbon forks but know little about carbon frames what's good and what's less so😊
I'm still trying to wear out the steel and leather haha.


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## bagpuss (14 Apr 2021)

I find that it is these 🍪🍪 that play havoc with my average speed ,but hey I own the day so its all about the ride .


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## Lovacott (17 Apr 2021)

matticus said:


> And the time you spend _below _9mph tends to be the dominant factor in your _overall _speed.


The fastest stretch on my ten mile commute is a downhill bit where my current speed record is 33mph.

On the flats, I'm doing about 20mph.

For the whole ride, I average 11.5mph.


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## CXRAndy (17 Apr 2021)

There are plenty of non road bikes in the £5-10k bracket. Carbon high spec MTB, ebikes, Look at Reise Muller, Stromer for expensive ebikes. Custom bikes easily £5k


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## al78 (21 Apr 2021)

£10k makes my £2400 custom built bike look like peanuts. My custom bike was put together by thinking about how to construct a road bike that will stand up to a daily 20 mile round trip commute with hills in all weathers which requires minimal maintenance and has decent lighting. It came down to horizontal dropouts, Shimano 11 DI2 hub gear, Marathon+ tyres, hub dynamo, Lumotec Luxos front dynamo light, and disc brakes. It just works with only the occasional cleaning/lubrication and replacing of worn components.


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## SkipdiverJohn (21 Apr 2021)

You've got Di2 shifting on a *hub* gear?? The mind boggles!


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## Punkawallah (1 Jun 2021)

Think it all comes down to 'smiles per mile'. No point paying lots to be miserable, give the money to me, and I'll throw buckets of water over you :-) (or is that the other forum?)


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