# We're at fault on the roads, over deaths involving HGV's



## classic33 (12 Jan 2014)

*Question:*
Which of the following methods should be used to reduce risks for cyclists on the roads?
Proper enforcement (Including fines) of cyclists ignoring the rules of the road. 87% *(97%)**
More training for cyclists on large vehicle blind spots. 85% *(94%)**
Physical segregation of cyclists from other road users. 60% *(77%)**
Lift bans to allow trucks to deliver before and after rush-hour period. 51%
More training for drivers. 48%
Redesign junctions to be safer. 48%
Voluntary fitment of safety equipment to vehicles. 26%
Mandatory fitment of safety equipment to vehicles. 23%
Other_(Not Specified, my words)._ 14%
Ban cyclists from the rush-hour period. 11%
Ban trucks from the rush-hour period. 7%
No methods required to reduce risks for cyclists on roads. 1%

Majority of respondents (82%) feel that the national & local media are biased against trucks when reporting incidents involving trucks & cyclists.
More than two thirds (68%) felt that the government is not right to promote cycling without appropriate safeguards in place.

One respondent said _"There needs to be less emotion and more hard facts & analysis.
Cycling, especially in London, with the advent Boris bikes, has increased rapidly. With many of the new cyclists having no training or experience of riding in a busy city. This has led to a number of fatal incidents which although they have also involved cars, buses & a coach or two, have concentrated on trucks because they are always seen as dirty, smelly, noisy & dangerous."_
One driver said _" The government & media should wake up to the reality that we all need to promote mutual respect for all road users. ............
..............Until people wake up to respecting each other's right to use the roads & start to respect other road users, there will always be stupid mistakes that costs lives. Cyclists: look out for vehicles & respect their size. Large vehicle drivers: respect the vunerability of cyclists"_
Another driver said _"I sometimes cycle; you don't realise how some vehicles get to you when passing until you have been on a bike yourself. Since I started cycling, I now give cyclists much more room when travelling behind them or overtaking. Until you cycle, you won't know how many people do not give way for bikes"_

While many respondents were keen to point the finger of blame at cyclists, for the sake of balance only 35% of respodents said they had sent their drivers on on vunerable road user awareness training. Which type of haulier has embraced this the most: thats right, construction hauliers - nearly half (48%) use such traing

**Figures in brackets represent Construction Hauliers response, compared to survey average.*
Nearly 200 respondents, which will have included haulage companies as well as drivers, took part in the survey.

Survey link was posted on here. So where do we go from here.
We can sit on the fence looking at our side of the problem, whilst everyone one else does the same. Somewhere on that fence, lies the solution.

Also posted on TruckNet UK THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM & OWNER AND FLEET OPERATORS FORUM.


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## classic33 (12 Jan 2014)

Thats the view of those in the industry. Figures given above are from the survey.
Having read them, given the response, where would you say the blame lies. Using the results given!


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## IncoherentJeff (12 Jan 2014)

Whatever vehicle there will always be a small percentage of people who do not heed the rules of the road or advice offered, no matter how much training or technology, be it cars, vans, buses, HGVs, caravans, motorcyclists, tractors, etc. and indeed us cyclists.

I think one answer is to stop playing the blame game, keep up the awareness and keep drilling the point of road safety home to all road users, like the endless bombardment of anti-smoking adverts.

How about multiple TV ads of the same event but from different perspectives to raise awareness.
eg, a cyclist and a left lorry turning at a junction;

Ad 1; 1st person view from the HGV drivers perspective; making cyclists aware of how they read the road ahead, the observations they make, the line they need to take to be able to turn the corner, to show people the limited visibility they have, what to do/not do. the potential risks & hazards, etc.
Ad 2; 1st person view from the cyclists perspective; making drivers aware of the same but from the cyclists perspective.
The same could be done for lots of scenarios; cyclist & car, motorcycle & car, bus & car etc.


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## buggi (12 Jan 2014)

the only things i don't agree with are:

Physical segregation of cyclists from other road users; Voluntary fitment of safety equipment to vehicles. ( yes to Mandatory fitment); and banning cyclists from the rush-hour period.

This does nothing to promote cycling or mutual respect.

i do believe that its something that should be tackled from all angles and massively believe in training for cyclists as one angle.

i had the opportunity to stand on Trafalgar square for 20 mins at rush hour recently and watch the driver -v- cyclist scenario. I was shocked at how little a large number of cyclists interacted with drivers. I think bcoz we are all quite experienced on here we forget others are not. I watched one guy stop on the left of a junction, when the lights changed he proceeded into the middle lane, only to then take the first exit and, in doing so, crossed the path of a car in the nearside lane without even checking. Another scooted her bike (bcoz there wasn't room to cycle) up the left of a left turning bus and wait just on his left front corner, and others riding round the square between the lanes, weaving from one lane to the next very obviously unsure of where they should be. Many of them didn't even look when changing lanes. There were only a few good ones in the correct position.

what made it worse is I didn't see any bad behaviour from drivers, so i cant even whinge about them.

i know 20 min is a short snapshot in time but after everything said on here about how bad the drivers are, and as a cyclist myself, i was pretty dismayed by what i saw. Don't get me wrong, i didn't see law breaking gung ho cyclists, but i did see a lot of cyclists that were unsure, ignorant and/or just hoping for the best. They must be scaring the hell out of drivers. And as anger often arises from fear it could explain why some drivers are angry.


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## classic33 (12 Jan 2014)

Thread title chosen because of the results of that one question. Which seems to point out that we as cyclists are to blame.


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## classic33 (12 Jan 2014)

@buggi Five minutes at any busy junction will see a lot of laws being broken. Road users ignoring one another.
The question was from a survey in Commercial Motor in December. So it was aimed at those in the industry. Slightly suprised at the amount of blame laid at our feet though.


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## buggi (12 Jan 2014)

classic33 said:


> @buggi Five minutes at any busy junction will see a lot of laws being broken. Road users ignoring one another.
> The question was from a survey in Commercial Motor in December. So it was aimed at those in the industry. Slightly suprised at the amount of blame laid at our feet though.


surprised? They've always blamed us!! Don't you know we're the devil reincarnated?


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## classic33 (12 Jan 2014)

Its the amount of blame thats beenlaid at our feet that suprised me. They are also road users & must bear some of the responsibility of trying to sort the problem out.
Knee jerk reactions often result in something that no-one wanted.


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## buggi (12 Jan 2014)

classic33 said:


> @buggi Five minutes at any busy junction will see a lot of laws being broken. Road users ignoring one another.
> The question was from a survey in Commercial Motor in December. So it was aimed at those in the industry. Slightly suprised at the amount of blame laid at our feet though.


also, it reminds me of a survey carried out which concluded the general public believed that girls who wore short skirts or got drunk pretty much deserved to get raped (obviously didn't occur to these people that rapists target these women so that jurors empathised with the rapist and thus get off or get a lighter sentence)


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## buggi (12 Jan 2014)

classic33 said:


> Its the amount of blame thats beenlaid at our feet that suprised me. They are also road users & must bear some of the responsibility of trying to sort the problem out.
> Knee jerk reactions often result in something that no-one wanted.


mate they will always blame the cyclist for one simple reason... They sympathise with drivers bcoz they get easily distracted themselves and are worried they will find themselves in the same position. that's why drivers support proposed laws for helmets and the like and do not support laws to increase sentences for drivers who kill. They will support anything that puts the responsibility on anyone but them.


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## summerdays (12 Jan 2014)

Both sides make mistakes, the main problem is who pays for the mistake, the vast majority of the time the cyclist.


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## buggi (12 Jan 2014)

User13710 said:


> Was that an attempt at a joke Buggi?


no its true. I read it about 8 years ago. Appalling in my opinion. These people sit on juries.


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## ufkacbln (12 Jan 2014)

Dear lorry driver, are you going to vote for restrictions to your activities - NO
Dear Lorry Driver, are you going to admit that large numbers of your colleagues drive dangerously - NO
Dear Lorry driver, would you rather blame somene else for your shortcomings and restrict their activities - YES


There you are .... the entire survey in three questions


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## ufkacbln (12 Jan 2014)

buggi said:


> no its true. I read it about 8 years ago. Appalling in my opinion. These people sit on juries.




Things don't change!

In 1934 the then Ministar of Transport Lord Brabazon stated:



> “It is true that 7000 people are killed in motor accidents, but it is not always going on like that. People are getting used to the new conditions… No doubt many of the old Members of the House will recollect the number of chickens we killed in the old days. We used to come back with the radiator stuffed with feathers. It was the same with dogs. Dogs get out of the way of motor cars nowadays and you never kill one. There is education even in the lower animals. These things will right themselves.”



Another attitude that still has its followers


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## GrumpyGregry (12 Jan 2014)

Turkeys don't vote for Christmas!

HOLD THE FRONT PAGE!!!


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## classic33 (12 Jan 2014)

Cunobelin said:


> Dear lorry driver, are you going to vote for restrictions to your activities - NO
> Dear Lorry Driver, are you going to admit that large numbers of your colleagues drive dangerously - NO
> Dear Lorry driver, would you rather blame somene else for your shortcomings and restrict their activities - YES
> 
> ...


 That was only one question out of the survey. Survey was industry based, owners, managers & drivers. Also the only one that we, cyclists were mentioned in.


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## theclaud (12 Jan 2014)

User13710 said:


> This was the bit I was hoping was a joke.



I think it's a fair point if not taken too literally. Men rape on the basis that they have an extremely good chance of getting away with it. They know they are more likely to get away with offences against women who will be blamed for whatever happens to them, and they know, instinctively or otherwise, that the justice system and society at large shares their perception that women invite rape, and some women invite it more than others. I made a connection on a recent thread on a similar topic about the way the police have responded to men killing women by placing curfews on _women_, and the way that people respond to lorries killing cyclists by attempting to places restrictions and prohibitions on _cyclists_.


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## theclaud (12 Jan 2014)

User13710 said:


> This isn't a thread about rape, so I'll just make this one comment. I think we both know that what a rape victim is wearing has nothing whatsoever to do with her/his chances of getting raped. It's also pretty clear that rapists don't tend to consider things like probabilities of punishment before they rape people. So the original suggestion is not at all a fair comment, and in fact buys into the whole myth that if you want to reduce your chances of getting raped you shouldn't wear a short skirt or behave in any way that could be construed as provocative.



I take your point, and it's arguably that all analogies involving rape are ill-advised in terms of what we know about how these threads tend to proceed. All analogies fall apart somewhere if pressed too far. However I do think you're wrong about perpetrators not considering the probabilities of punishment - they consider them inasmuch as they know there is very little possibility of being held responsible for their actions at all, and insofar as they are called to account will deploy all the available myths in their defence. My point is only that the myth Buggi references is not of her making, and indeed I interpreted her post as being critical of it.


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## buggi (12 Jan 2014)

User13710 said:


> This was the bit I was hoping was a joke.


No that's not a joke, the details of the survey was part of an overall report into the behaviour of rapists. Rapists are known to target women who are drunk or dressed provocatively as they know Barristers can use it to sway the opinion of the jury in court, and the victim can be demonised in court. The victim could, for all the jury know, have only slept with one man in her entire life, but because she happened to be out in a short skirt and got a bit worse the wear for drink, she becomes to the one asking for it. it's a well known common tactic used by barristers which the rape charities are opposed to.

it's not unlike the blame culture that a cyclist deserves his head injury because he wasn't wearing a helmet... despite that the head injury would not have been caused had it not been for the reckless driving of the moton.



User13710 said:


> Really? That was in the survey?


well, the general public sit on juries don't they? and it was a public survey. I used to work in crown court for a defence lawyer. It's shocking at just how many get away with it, because the barrister convinces the jury she asked for it (but that's an whole other thread) just as drivers get away with it because the cyclist didn't wear a helmet/hi viz bla de bla


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## buggi (12 Jan 2014)

User13710 said:


> This isn't a thread about rape, so I'll just make this one comment. I think we both know that what a rape victim is wearing has nothing whatsoever to do with her/his chances of getting raped. It's also pretty clear that rapists don't tend to consider things like probabilities of punishment before they rape people. So the original suggestion is not at all a fair comment, and in fact buys into the whole myth that if you want to reduce your chances of getting raped you shouldn't wear a short skirt or behave in any way that could be construed as provocative.


the problem is Tiny that a vast majority of the public are not educated about this. we know it, but unfortunately a lot of people still think that way. I sat in court once while a girl was ripped apart for wearing boots, leggings and a jumper. provocative? not in any way... but by the time the barrister had finished, it was the most provocative outfit a woman could wear. Imagine if she'd been wearing a short skirt. And yes, they were found not guilty. It is slightly off topic tho so to get back to the original thread its similar to the public not being educated about cyclists, thinking we purposely ride under lorries just to annoy them.


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## buggi (12 Jan 2014)

theclaud said:


> I take your point, and it's arguably that all analogies involving rape are ill-advised in terms of what we know about how these threads tend to proceed. All analogies fall apart somewhere if pressed too far. However I do think you're wrong about perpetrators not considering the probabilities of punishment - they consider them inasmuch as they know there is very little possibility of being held responsible for their actions at all, and insofar as they are called to account will deploy all the available myths in their defence. My point is only that the myth Buggi references is not of her making, and indeed I interpreted her post as being critical of it.


 no i'm not critical of it, I believe it. There is a lot of evidence, including admissions from convicted rapists, that they do target women who dress provocatively or are drunk, not because they believe that they are asking for it, but because they can convince others they were asking for it. It's hard enough to be convicted, so any other spanner they can throw in the cogs of justice, they will use it.

Similar to a driver convincing a judge that he's a good driver really and that cyclist... well, he wasn't wearing a helmet so no wonder he died!


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## Ern1e (12 Jan 2014)

Just to go sideways a second @buggi I know of one lad accused of rape found guilty locked up for quite some time and all the way through the case said he had not done it, but the jurie found him guilty and after a few in the slammer the woman admited that it was all a load of po she had made up to get at him because he would not have sex with her at the time. Now I am not saying all rapist's are inocent but we need to also be careful when passing blame on to this that or what ever and as to who is at fault wether it be driving ralated or what all parties IMO could use some training at some point lets face it you can't just jump in a truck/bus or car and just drive off but on our bicycles yes you can with little training on road rules etc.When I got my first bike as a child the school at that time offered the cycling profiency test which my mother (bless her) made me take ! (I also wore the badge with pride lol) which 40+ years ago traffic was nothing like today ! ok thats the little rant over with and to conclude training yes,segragation not really but install some decent cycling infrastructure please and this may just help things along.


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## theclaud (12 Jan 2014)

[QUOTE 2868449, member: 30090"]*C&A *is that way if you want to start a thread on it. ==>[/quote]

In case we need some duff 80s Dutch party-wear?


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## buggi (12 Jan 2014)

Ern1e said:


> Just to go sideways a second @buggi I know of one lad accused of rape found guilty locked up for quite some time and all the way through the case said he had not done it, but the jurie found him guilty and after a few in the slammer the woman admited that it was all a load of po she had made up to get at him because he would not have sex with her at the time. Now I am not saying all rapist's are inocent but we need to also be careful when passing blame on to this that or what ever and as to who is at fault wether it be driving ralated or what all parties IMO could use some training at some point lets face it you can't just jump in a truck/bus or car and just drive off but on our bicycles yes you can with little training on road rules etc.When I got my first bike as a child the school at that time offered the cycling profiency test which my mother (bless her) made me take ! (I also wore the badge with pride lol) which 40+ years ago traffic was nothing like today ! ok thats the little rant over with and to conclude training yes,segragation not really but install some decent cycling infrastructure please and this may just help things along.


 hold on minute, why are you jumping down my neck? Yes some women do lie but they are very much the minority . There a far more rapists roaming free than innocent men locked up. But that wasn't my point, my point was the perception its the cyclists fault was similar to the report/survey i read that its a well known tactic for rapists to target particular women as they know the public has a certain opinion of them. ... I said it reminded me of the OPs survey... The public have a certain opinion of cyclists and they blame us. It wasn't meant to descend into a who did what or blame the bloke, it was a comparison of the two surveys and how each seemed to blame the victim.

2nd if you read earlier on in the thread i specifically said i thought cycle safety should come from all angles, one of those angles being cycle training which i fully supported. So please read the thread before you jump on me bcoz i can assure you we are on the same page here.


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## Ern1e (12 Jan 2014)

2868474 said:


> If segregation no but infrastructure yes, what sort of infrastructure do you have in mind?


 Something along the lines of the Dutch would be very good @Adrian but then my answer was "not really "which I should have expanded on and should have continued to say that total segragation can't imo be a total reality so we shall just have to put up with waht we have and I also was on a rant so sorry sir (lick lick grovel)


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## Ern1e (12 Jan 2014)

buggi said:


> hold on minute, why are you jumping down my neck? Yes some women do lie but they are very much the minority . There a far more rapists roaming free than innocent men locked up. But that wasn't my point, my point was the perception its the cyclists fault was similar to the report/survey i read that its a well known tactic for rapists to target particular women as they know the public has a certain opinion of them. ... I said it reminded me of the OPs survey... The public have a certain opinion of cyclists and they blame us. It wasn't meant to descend into a who did what or blame the bloke, it was a comparison of the two surveys and how each seemed to blame the victim.
> 
> 2nd if you read earlier on in the thread i specifically said i thought cycle safety should come from all angles, one of those angles being cycle training which i fully supported. So please read the thread before you jump on me bcoz i can assure you we are on the same page here.


 Again sorry @buggi I was not trying to aim anything at you what so ever it was an atempt to well more of a rant in an attempt to redirect the thread a little please accept my most humble grovels sir.


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## Ern1e (12 Jan 2014)

2868485 said:


> What if homicidal drivers tend to go for a particular type of cyclist? What cyclist type would it be I wonder.


 Uhm now thats a thought or two I remember one guy here who during the mid sixtys was a very competative cyclist and he did tell me of one training run he did on which he had just finished work and went out in overalls and he could not belive the space drivers gave him versus the times he was in his racing kit ! his opinion was they think what you wear is an indication as to how good or not you are so may be lycra clad perhaps ?


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## buggi (12 Jan 2014)

2868485 said:


> What if homicidal drivers tend to go for a particular type of cyclist? What cyclist type would it be I wonder.


 ones without helmets. ?
it wasn't the thing about why they did it i was comparing, it was the thing about public perception and victim blaming.


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## buggi (12 Jan 2014)

Ern1e said:


> Again sorry @buggi I was not trying to aim anything at you what so ever it was an atempt to well more of a rant in an attempt to redirect the thread a little please accept my most humble grovels sir.


lol accepted. i didnt mean for the thread to go off topic either mate. And its Miss


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## theclaud (12 Jan 2014)

2868505 said:


> I always wear a long blond wig and a pink tutu over my Lycra. I get loads of space.



Also try this: http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/ride-wide.147297/


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## theclaud (12 Jan 2014)

2868514 said:


> Thank goodness for that. Just for a second I thought it was going to be a picture of me in the tutu.


I'm saving that one for when it's really called for.


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## buggi (12 Jan 2014)

2868505 said:


> I always wear a long blond wig and a pink tutu over my Lycra. I get loads of space.


 always had you down for mankini type of bloke


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## Ern1e (12 Jan 2014)

buggi said:


> lol accepted. i didnt mean for the thread to go off topic either mate. And its Miss


 OMG now this calls for the most HUMBLE OF HUMBLE grovels so very very sorry Miss buggi.


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## buggi (12 Jan 2014)

Ern1e said:


> OMG now this calls for the most HUMBLE OF HUMBLE grovels so very very sorry Miss buggi.


 its a curse! Happens all the time


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## buggi (12 Jan 2014)

2868522 said:


> With my bottom?


 i heard its a good bum.


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## albion (12 Jan 2014)

HGVs cost a minimum of £50,000.

Yet mandatory front facing CCTV recording is relatively cheap.
It might well be the easiest way to save lives.


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## Pat "5mph" (12 Jan 2014)

buggi said:


> i heard its a good bum.


Hands off, he's mine


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## snorri (12 Jan 2014)

This thread is nonsensical without including in the OP a few details regarding the organisation responsible for drawing up the survey, the number of survey forms circulated, where the forms were circulated and to whom. etc etc


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## classic33 (12 Jan 2014)

snorri said:


> This thread is nonsensical without including in the OP a few details regarding the organisation responsible for drawing up the survey, the number of survey forms circulated, where the forms were circulated and to whom. etc etc


 I take it you read the bottom of the first/OP?


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## buggi (12 Jan 2014)

snorri said:


> This thread is nonsensical without including in the OP a few details regarding the organisation responsible for drawing up the survey, the number of survey forms circulated, where the forms were circulated and to whom. etc etc


 well one things for sure, it wasn't the local cycling club that was surveyed!


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## snorri (12 Jan 2014)

classic33 said:


> I take it you read the bottom of the first/OP?


 No, I've not been on CC for a few days because my laptop was playing up, perhaps it still is.
My apologies if I missed something.


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## classic33 (12 Jan 2014)

snorri said:


> This thread is nonsensical without including in the OP a few details regarding the organisation responsible for drawing up the survey, the number of survey forms circulated, where the forms were circulated and to whom. etc etc


 Link to the survey posted here 12 Dec 2013


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## Wobblers (13 Jan 2014)

theclaud said:


> I'm saving that one for when it's really called for.





2868525 said:


> I have money



Sounds like an ideal Profit Making Opportunity there.

Have you considered an Ebay auction?


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