# Taking off the door mirror...



## GrumpyGregry (6 Feb 2014)

From time-to-time, after having felt the brush of a door mirror or side panel or vehicle door against my tender flesh when awheel, I have been known to remove a door mirror from the offending vehicle if I've been able to catch it. I've never chased someone down to do it but sometimes the twunt driving just doesn't realise there will be a queue ahead. (And there was that bloke, back in the day, who pulled into the petrol station... he ended up with no door mirrors at all...)

As far as I can recall I've done this four- or five-times since in the last 15 years, mainly because the chance to catch the twunt is all too rare on my mainly rural rides. 

This may, I accept, make me a certain type of cyclist. 

What says the cc-hive mind? Just desserts or beyond the pale? High five for GG or a spell on the naughty step?


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## Brandane (6 Feb 2014)

It might be justified in certain - extreme- circumstances, but if the "crime" is simply parking a car on a public road, then ....... well, see THAT thread, which is now locked .


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## ianrauk (6 Feb 2014)

Took off one car door mirror after the driver of the vehicle decided to dangerously overtake me very closely on a left hand corner whilst continually beeping the horn and tailgating me. I don't think the driver realised that they would get stuck in traffic ahead. I stopped, asked what their problem was and got a sweary mouthful back. So thwack... mirror gone.
No regrets and I would do it again.


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## GrumpyGregry (6 Feb 2014)

Brandane said:


> It may be justified in certain circumstances, but if the "crime" is simply parking a car on a public road, then ....... well, see THAT thread, which is now locked .


Causing an obstruction thobut?

(I agree that removal of mirror would be a cruel and unusual punishment)


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## sheddy (6 Feb 2014)

Thread bookmarked (sorry - I still don't know how to do this)


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## Brandane (6 Feb 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> Causing an obstruction thobut?
> 
> (I agree that removal of mirror would be a cruel and unusual punishment)


Depends on the level of selfishness/stupidity shown by the manner of the obstruction.


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## Flying Dodo (6 Feb 2014)

I'd say no, despite how tempting it might seem. The driver may not remember you in the future, but he* will have an even bigger grudge against cyclists and may extract some even more dangerous revenge on another cyclist.


* I'm saying he, as invariably such idiots are male.


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## screenman (6 Feb 2014)

2 wrongs and all that stuff.


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## Garethgas (6 Feb 2014)

I have to say, I disagree with this practice.
It shows an immature and aggressive attitude, the kind of behaviour I'd expect from an angry or spoilt teenager.
It engages you in a war you can't win and does your cause no good.
It's an act of vandalism and I'd have no sympathy if the motorist got out and laid you out.
You are deliberately provoking a reaction and escalating a needless situation.
You are creating an angry motorist and the next cyclist he comes across might suffer as a result.
Frankly, there are so many wrongs in your attitude, I'll stop there.


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## buggi (6 Feb 2014)

I say a spell on the naughty step... But well worth it ha ha


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## GrumpyGregry (6 Feb 2014)

Flying Dodo said:


> I'd say no, despite how tempting it might seem. The driver may not remember you in the future, but he* will have an even bigger grudge against cyclists and may extract some even more dangerous revenge on another cyclist.
> 
> 
> * I'm saying he, as invariably such idiots are male.


Does that work if it is driver on driver conflict? As in....

The driver may not remember the specific driver in the future but he, and it IS always a he, he will have an even bigger grudge, which implies he has a grudge to start with, well he will have an even bigger grudge against other drivers and may extract some even more dangerous revenge on another driver.

... as I'm not sure it is. And drivers knocking other drivers door mirrors off is far more common than cyclists doing it ime.


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## boydj (6 Feb 2014)

Far better to come up quietly behind the driver and hit the roof of the car hard with the flat of your hand. No damage, but the driver won't forget in a hurry. If he gets out of the car you can tell him that what you did was a lot less dangerous than what he had done previously - and you have his number.


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## Flying Dodo (6 Feb 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> Does that work if it is driver on driver conflict? As in....
> 
> The driver may not remember the specific driver in the future but he, and it IS always a he, he will have an even bigger grudge, which implies he has a grudge to start with, well he will have an even bigger grudge against other drivers and may extract some even more dangerous revenge on another driver.
> 
> ... as I'm not sure it is. And drivers knocking other drivers door mirrors off is far more common than cyclists doing it ime.



Motorists will see it differently. Motorist on motorist conflict is the same herd. Remember that cyclists are different and stick out more.


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## GrumpyGregry (6 Feb 2014)

uclown2002 said:


> Not if the driver is a 'Kenneth Noye' type.


How do you tell?


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## Banjo (6 Feb 2014)

I have to admit that sometimes with the adrenalin running I could be tempted (but havent yet) .

I dont think illegal acts like this can possibly promote anything good for cyclists in general though.And of course one day the driver may see red and run right over you in a rage.


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## ColinJ (6 Feb 2014)

uclown2002 said:


> Not if the driver is a 'Kenneth Noye' type.


Like this one ...?


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## Banjo (6 Feb 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> How do you tell?


 If he doesnt kill you he isnt the type


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## GrumpyGregry (6 Feb 2014)

ColinJ said:


> Like this one ...?


Who killed someone who _accidentally_ clipped his door mirror?


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## uclown2002 (6 Feb 2014)

ColinJ said:


> Like this one ...?


Exactly. You have no idea what that driver is capable of if provoked.


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## GrumpyGregry (6 Feb 2014)

Banjo said:


> I have to admit that sometimes with the adrenalin running I could be tempted (but havent yet) .
> 
> I dont think illegal acts like this can possibly promote anything good for cyclists in general though.And of course one day the driver may see red and run right over you in a rage.


One did actually follow me into the car park at work once. But that is another story. As is the one who did it when I was driving....


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## ColinJ (6 Feb 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> Who killed someone who _accidentally_ clipped his door mirror?


Exactly my point. If crazies exact the death penalty for _accidental_ damage, they would have no hesitation in inflicting it if they catch you damaging their beloved cars _deliberately_!


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## ColinJ (6 Feb 2014)

[QUOTE 2915494, member: 45"]Sentenced to 13 years minimum.[/quote]
It happened just down the road from where I cycled as a teenager ...


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## GrumpyGregry (6 Feb 2014)

uclown2002 said:


> Exactly. You have no idea what that driver is capable of if provoked.


You have no idea what anyone is capable of if provoked. Nor what they might regard as provocation. Do we really have to live our lives in fear of provoking others just in case they are some nutter? Clearly nobber-drivers are happy to take the risk of provoking me quite happily!

and how are we to cycle at all given any driver we encounter may have just been provoked beyond endurance by the last cyclist they met?


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## Garethgas (6 Feb 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> Who killed someone who _accidentally_ clipped his door mirror?


Thing is GG, a lot of these drivers are already angry before they even encounter you so it doesn't take much for them to take it out on what they might see as an easy target.
I really don't think there's one simple answer, or one simple reason, more likely a combination of factors but I don't think provoking them further is doing our fellow cyclists any favours.


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## GrumpyGregry (6 Feb 2014)

ColinJ said:


> Exactly my point. If crazies exact the death penalty for _accidental_ damage, they would have no hesitation in inflicting it if they catch you damaging their beloved cars _deliberately_!


and therefore we should stay home and ride turbo's? or never ride in traffic in case we accidentally clip a car and get murdered?


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## GrumpyGregry (6 Feb 2014)

Flying Dodo said:


> Motorists will see it differently. Motorist on motorist conflict is the same herd. Remember that cyclists are different and stick out more.


and are the subject of established grudges? So perhaps the accidental contact by the driver is actually deliberate?


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## sazzaa (6 Feb 2014)

I think the vandalism and aggression of removing a mirror is completely wrong and would worry if cycling made me feel like I had lost control in that manner. That said, if a driver were to get out of their car and act aggressively towards me in person then it's possible I'd react in self defence.


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## GrumpyGregry (6 Feb 2014)

Garethgas said:


> Thing is GG, a lot of these drivers are already angry before they even encounter you so it doesn't take much for them to take it out on what they might see as an easy target.
> I really don't think there's one simple answer, or one simple reason, more likely a combination of factors but I don't think provoking them further is doing our fellow cyclists any favours.


I think the % of folk who drive angry is vanishingly small and the % of them who would take it out on anyone a vanishingly small % of them.

I don't buy the "what about your poor fellow cyclists" reasoning at all. But I'm open to hear how folk think it works. Because if it does work/apply I'm going to start giving every gutter bunny I pass a piece of my mind about how they are letting the side down. And as for RLJ'ers. And that lot with no pedal reflectors. Well....


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## downfader (6 Feb 2014)

uclown2002 said:


> Exactly. You have no idea what that driver is capable of if provoked.


Equally I think sections of the cycling community demonise drivers as somehow having this capability.

I've never knocked a wing mirror off but I've been bloody tempted. Like twice this morning. Already had a bad day home yesterday, to find out that my Mother had been doored on her way home. The Police are now (at a second attempt) involved.

Twice this morning I have had drivers get right up my arse and give me some serious threatening abuse because they couldnt overtake. They've acted like spoilt toddlers and I lost my rag on both occasions and shouted back. These people need to be taken to task, I'd rather in reality push hard to force some kind of change. Force of will is a powerful thing, and I think my correspondence over some 3-400 letters last year might have helped not just cycling's image but my own bloody sanity.

I also think that if you accept cycling as part of your lifestyle you start to see the roads in a completely different context to noncyclists. There can be benefits to that as well as negatives the question is are we prepared to push and promote those benefits? I dont see that we have any choice but to.


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## sazzaa (6 Feb 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> I think the % of folk who drive angry is vanishingly small and the % of them who would take it out on anyone a vanishingly small % of them.


I think loads of people drive angry/aggressively, I seem to encounter them every day on the way to work, whether in my car or on my bike.


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## Banjo (6 Feb 2014)

Greg we all get angry on times and some peoples fuse is shorter than others .Right up till my late 20s I was involved in more bar fights than I care to remember .Then it dawned on me that wether I was right or wrong still standing or bleeding on the floor I still felt like shoot in the morning. All of us have to develop ways of dealing with stress and anger.


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## ianrauk (6 Feb 2014)

It's quite simple really. Act aggressive & bullying against me with a ton of metal then you get what what is coming to you. You never know what a car driver may be like or act if you touch their precious car?, well, you never know what this cyclist will be like or act if you put this cyclists life in danger.


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## GrumpyGregry (6 Feb 2014)

downfader said:


> Equally I think sections of the cycling community demonise drivers as somehow having this capability.
> 
> I've never knocked a wing mirror off but I've been bloody tempted. Like twice this morning. Already had a bad day home yesterday, to find out that my Mother had been doored on her way home. The Police are now (at a second attempt) involved.
> 
> ...


Since Boo, my splendid daughter, bought me a helmet cam for Christmas anyone who clips me, or otherwise makes contact, or plain ole drives like a twunt near me, is getting reported to Operation Crackdown.


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## glenn forger (6 Feb 2014)

I've done it, never on the bike, but if someone parks on the pavement I may be less careful about scraping a key down three panels of the car and taking the wing mirror off. No point doing it on a bike because so many drivers have no hesitation about using their vehicle as a weapon. A three-panel gouge will write off a £1000 car. 

Good.


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## GrumpyGregry (6 Feb 2014)

Banjo said:


> Greg we all get angry on times and some peoples fuse is shorter than others .Right up till my late 20s I was involved in more bar fights than I care to remember .Then it dawned on me that wether I was right or wrong still standing or bleeding on the floor I still felt like s*** in the morning. All of us have to develop ways of dealing with stress and anger.


Bloke got stabbed in a pub in town the other weekend and was dragged into the street and given a good kicking until the ambulance arrived. No doubt he provoked it or escalated it. Should I stop going to pubs just in case?


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## uclown2002 (6 Feb 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> Since Boo, my splendid daughter, bought me a helmet cam for Christmas anyone who clips me, or otherwise makes contact, or plain ole drives like a twunt near me, is getting reported to Operation Crackdown.


Don't forget to switch camera off when you rip that mirror off.


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## ianrauk (6 Feb 2014)

2915553 said:


> You don't give enough visual clues?




They get fair warning.


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## sazzaa (6 Feb 2014)

Vandalizing a car or any property is such a lowlife scummy thing to do, deal with the person face to face if you want a fair exchange or a fight. Just because you think you're at a disadvantage in the situation, doesn't excuse underhand tactics, it just makes you a shoot person.


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## glenn forger (6 Feb 2014)

2915566 said:


> Would it not be more constructive to scratch "pavements are for people" in the paintwork, otherwise your message is lost when they just view it as mindless vandalism.



I thought of that, I drug the owner then tattoo that message on their forehead.


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## GrumpyGregry (6 Feb 2014)

uclown2002 said:


> Don't forget to switch camera off when you rip that mirror off.


Why would I need to do that? Sussex plod quite happy to prosecute on the basis of video evidence and some of them take a very dim view of folk who use their cars carelessly or as weapons.


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## GrumpyGregry (6 Feb 2014)

Excellent, thought provoking, range of responses, folks. Ta. I'm off to my bed but feel free to carry on, in my absence and I'll wade back join in, on the morrow.


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## Banjo (6 Feb 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> Bloke got stabbed in a pub in town the other weekend and was dragged into the street and given a good kicking until the ambulance arrived. No doubt he provoked it or escalated it. Should I stop going to pubs just in case?


 No and neither should you give up cycling . Im just saying shrug your shoulders and let it flow over you sometimes. Your aggressive responses obviously bother you or you wouldnt bring it up on here .


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## glenn forger (6 Feb 2014)

Here's a tip, don't try wrenching, don't try tugging, hit it straight down vertically and it comes straight off, lol.


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## ianrauk (6 Feb 2014)

glenn forger said:


> Here's a tip, don't try wrenching, don't try tugging, hit it straight down vertically and it comes straight off, lol.




Yup. That's what I did.
I honestly didn't mean to break off the wing mirror, I just bashed my closed fist down on to it and it just came off....surprised myself at how easy it broke..


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## Banjo (6 Feb 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> Since Boo, my splendid daughter, bought me a helmet cam for Christmas anyone who clips me, or otherwise makes contact, or plain ole drives like a twunt near me, is getting reported to Operation Crackdown.


 
I wish the plod round here had a similar scheme to op crackdown . It looks as if one report gets the driver a warning letter. Two reports and it gets serious.Should be nationwide.


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## Pat "5mph" (6 Feb 2014)

Personally I would never, really dislike extreme display of brute force  
However, I do understand how others need to vent justified rage.
It is true that the practice does not endear cyclists a a whole to the general public: guess a non driving partner of a motorist who needs to find money to replace a side mirror would be non to pleased.


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## glenn forger (6 Feb 2014)

Yeah, well my council tax pays for the damage pavement parkers do to the pavement, my taxes pay for the people injured when they have to walk in the road because of pavement parkers, my taxes pay for the people injured when stupidly parked cars block sightlines at junctions.

If these cowards don't even have the guts to ask if it's ok to leave a ton of metal on the pavement before abandoning their vehicle they deserve all they get.


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## ianrauk (6 Feb 2014)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Personally I would never, really dislike extreme display of brute force
> However, I do understand how others need to vent justified rage.
> *It is true that the practice does not endear cyclists a a whole to the general public: guess a non driving partner of a motorist who needs to find money to replace a side mirror would be non to pleased*.



Well they had better tell their partner the truth then as to why the car has one less mirror.
_"Sorry, dear, I nearly killed a cyclist on purpose with my aggressive, bad driving and he wasn't best pleased, that's why we have no mirror. Bloody cyclists, no wonder no one likes them"_


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## 50000tears (6 Feb 2014)

Wouldn't do it myself but can see why you would want to in a very dangerous pass situation. I would hope though that you at least stay around long enough to tell the driver why they have just lost their mirror or else there is little point. Most close passes in my experience are not deliberate attempts to intimidate or endanger the cyclist but just p!$$ poor diving. Still tend to agree with others though that despite the provocation, doing actual damage to the persons car just reinforces the falsely held stereotype of how some drivers perceive everyday cyclists.


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## slowmotion (6 Feb 2014)

ianrauk said:


> Yup. That's what I did.
> I honestly didn't mean to break off the wing mirror, I just bashed my closed fist down on to it and it just came off....surprised myself at how easy it broke..


 I thought that bashing them forward from the back was the way. Is downwards better?

Just asking like....


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## slowmotion (6 Feb 2014)

User13710 said:


> How is that possible?


 Stand behind the mirror and whack it towards the front of the car. Most mirrors are designed to take a certain amount of force from the other direction if the driver squeezes through a gap that is too small.


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## mickle (6 Feb 2014)

It could be argued that if drivers knew that there was a risk that their car might lose an essential component if they endangered the safety of a vulnerable road user., that they might drive with a little more farking care. 

Windscreen wiper arms look funny if you bend them.


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## 400bhp (6 Feb 2014)

Are we losing the plot here - psychopaths are more likely to drive cars?

Don't do x to a car cos the driver might be a lunatic. You could apply that to any situation.


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## mickle (6 Feb 2014)

400bhp said:


> Are we losing the plot here - psychopaths are more likely to drive cars?
> 
> Don't do x to a car cos the driver might be a lunatic. You could apply that to any situation.


Innit.


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## 50000tears (6 Feb 2014)

slowmotion said:


> Stand behind the mirror and whack it towards the front of the car. Most mirrors are designed to take a certain amount of force from the other direction if the driver squeezes through a gap that is too small.



Aren't a lot of mirrors designed to fold in towards the door these days? Sure I saw it on an avert as a selling point .................... maybe it was advertised as a defense against angry cyclists?


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## slowmotion (6 Feb 2014)

...or an elephant in the wild....


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## 400bhp (6 Feb 2014)

Pat "5mph" said:


> It is true that the practice does not endear cyclists a a whole to the general public: guess a non driving partner of a motorist who needs to find money to replace a side mirror would be non to pleased.



But this is utter bolshoi - I posted this in t'other thread. As Greg alluded to, I see more aggressive actions by car drivers (seen them get out and fight, punch windows etc). I don't think all car drivers are lunatics. The reason (if you are correct) must be because what we do isn't seen as normal.


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## slowmotion (6 Feb 2014)

User13710 said:


> That's from the front, not the back


If the car squeezes through a gap, isn't the force on the mirror coming from the front? That's why they are often designed to fold in safely when subjected to forces from the front. They are not designed to resist forces from the other direction.

EDIT: calling @McWobble


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## 400bhp (6 Feb 2014)

Hmm, mirror knocking off is a bit conspicuous - better off battering the rear quarter with a wandering leg. Won't even realise what it is until they have got home/few days later. 

Not condoning it but if you must...


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## slowmotion (6 Feb 2014)

User13710 said:


> The mirror's at the front, and the casing is at the back - that's how the thing is operated though, and it's how most people see it I think.


 When viewed from the front of your motor, you can see the wing mirrors? That's novel.


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## Accy cyclist (6 Feb 2014)

Not a cycling incident but the other month some lazy motorist blocked the whole pavement with their car forcing anyone wanting to use the pavement into the busy road. I gave it some thought as i approached then decided that i had to make a stand,so i pushed the wing mirror forward as i passed the car to let Mr or Mrs lazy know i wasn't too pleased about their inconsiderate parking. As i got up the road i decided that this wasn't enough, so i went back to push the other mirror back. As i pushed it the damn thing fell off the car leaving me with it in my hand! I dropped it and ran!!


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## slowmotion (6 Feb 2014)

User13710 said:


> Come on Martin, sit in your car, look at the mirror - you know, the shiny bit - that's the front of the unit.


 I don't have a driver's mirror in my van but I'm pretty sure that both wing mirrors face backwards and the mirror is closer to the back of the van than the casing. There exist a couple of other possibilities

1) early dementia has set in as Chateau Slomo (entirely possible,alas)
2) we are talking at cross-purposes


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## glenn forger (6 Feb 2014)




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## slowmotion (6 Feb 2014)

A long time ago I served on a jury dealing with a case involving handling stolen goods. A few hours was spent by the prosecuting barrister picking holes in the defendants location when the police raid happened. It turned out that the barrister had no idea that The Front Room need not actually be at the front of the house.

We acquitted.


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## slowmotion (6 Feb 2014)

2915824 said:


> It is just a simple matter of perception. Like those city centre maps that have sprung up everywhere that aren't orientated north but the direction you are facing.


 Adrian, please don't get me on the subject of maps without a North point. It isn't good for my health.


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## Pat "5mph" (6 Feb 2014)

400bhp said:


> But this is utter bolshoi - I posted this in t'other thread. As Greg alluded to, *I see more aggressive actions by car drivers (seen them get out and fight, punch windows *etc). I don't think all car drivers are lunatics. The reason (if you are correct) must be because what we do isn't seen as normal.


Really? What happened to the British "aplomb-iness"? In all my 30 years in the UK have never seen a street fight between drivers, plenty abroad of course.
Seen lots of street fights between drunken pedestrians, but then I do live in Glasgow.
Cycling here in the sticks is not normal yet, we are getting there slowly but surely.


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## Andrew_P (7 Feb 2014)

Honestly sitting here behind my warm and cosy desk supping my morning coffee on a wet Friday morning, no bloody way should you be doing that. Now out on the bike after the third or fourth close pass of the day without being able to catch up with them then finally the last one and this one is stopped just up there smug in his warm protective metal shield having scared the shoot out of me, who knows how I will deal with it. It does seem to vary a lot lately, from full on wanting to batter them to a cheery smile and wtf were you doing.

Not many, if any things in my life replicate that rush of chemicals from having something nearly wipe me out just because they want to get somewhere a bit quicker.


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## sheddy (7 Feb 2014)

Banjo said:


> I wish the plod round here had a similar scheme to op crackdown . It looks as if one report gets the driver a warning letter. Two reports and it gets serious.Should be nationwide.



There is the Road Justice site. Email your County Police Chief and ask him to take the reports on board http://www.roadjustice.org.uk/report


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## MarkF (7 Feb 2014)

I can't see anything positive from doing it.

When I started again at 40 I was inhibited by traffic, not scared, but wary. When I became aware of good cycling road craft and started to commute and tour I turned into a right assertive bugger, once after being scared witless by stupidity I did indeed catch up a car and remove a mirror but that was only because the driver wouldn't get out! Another time I took a drivers car keys out of the ignition.

It all washes over me now, it's got to be something r.e.a.l.l.y bad for me to do or say anything, I enjoy cycling so much more.

The London ASL/Audi guy, he reminded me of me in the past, I am glad I changed and from that silly video and the subsequent comments, I realised I am still a bit of a twat with ASL's and too often take umbrage at a car 2' into one, filtering down and parking right in front for "revenge". I'll stop doing that too.


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## Mugshot (7 Feb 2014)

ianrauk said:


> Yup. That's what I did.
> I honestly didn't mean to break off the wing mirror, I just bashed my closed fist down on to it and it just came off....surprised myself at how easy it broke..


Ditto, I didn't mean to hit the mirror, in fact I'm not quite sure what I meant to hit. It was on a country road with _just_ enough room for a bike and a car to pass but it's super tight so it's a definite case of taking primary. I was on the single track section they were travelling towards me and came from the wider two lane section and barely slowed, it was night time so with their lights on I really couldn't see the offside of the car very well. I slowed, they kept coming, I slowed again they kept coming etc, eventually had to swerve for what I hoped was the gap and swung my arm at the same time hoping to hit the bonnet or something but ended up hitting the wing mirror. The noise it made when it hit the side window was terrific and I'll bet the driver absolutely shat themselves when it happened. They certainly stopped then.
Just where the car is in the PICTURE is where the excitement happened, although they were travelling in the opposite direction. 
It was a bit daft because I couldn't see and I could easily have hurt my arm/hand quite badly, but I'll guarantee that driver will think long and hard before they do the same again.


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## coffeejo (7 Feb 2014)

Violence breeds violence. You can't banish the dark with more darkness - you need light to do that. Do unto others... Etc.


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## nickyboy (7 Feb 2014)

There have been very few threads on CC that both make me angry and sad. Unfortunately this is one of the few.

Whilst motorists should be more respectful of cyclists, criminal damage is not the answer. You may feel better at the time but when you are convicted of criminal damage I suspect that feeling may disappear. The motorist will not be more considerate of cyclists in the future. He will now hate all cyclists.

If it were me and I was the subject of a close pass I would talk to the driver. In my experience, getting people on my side is achieved through persuasion, not violence


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## 400bhp (7 Feb 2014)

nickyboy said:


> There have been very few threads on CC that both make me angry and sad. Unfortunately this is one of the few.
> 
> Whilst motorists should be more respectful of cyclists, criminal damage is not the answer. You may feel better at the time but when you are convicted of criminal damage I suspect that feeling may disappear. The motorist will not be more considerate of cyclists in the future. He will now hate all cyclists.
> 
> If it were me and I was the subject of a close pass I would talk to the driver. In my experience, getting people on my side is achieved through persuasion, not violence



I'd hope that we are all being reflective and honest here.

Criminal damage is not the answer but I can see why it happens.


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## ianrauk (7 Feb 2014)

400bhp said:


> I'd hope that we are all being reflective and honest here.
> 
> Criminal damage is not the answer but I can see why it happens.




Indeed.. and we are not talking about close passes here. We are talking aggressive, bullying, peanut drivers, who will have no time or inclination to 'have a chat' about their wrong doings.


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## Mugshot (7 Feb 2014)

coffeejo said:


> Violence breeds violence. You can't banish the dark with more darkness - you need light to do that. *Do unto others... *Etc.


This works both ways though. Why should you accept something on the road which you wouldn't accept in any other walk of life? If I'm in a supermarket and somebody starts to ram their trolley into the back of my legs or push infront of me in the queue because they think they have a right to get to the checkout before me I wouldn't find that acceptable. I wouldn't start rolling around the aisles fighting with them but I'd certainly say something and dependant on the proximity I may well push their trolley. I don't think they'd hate every other shopper because I did that and they may think twice before they decided to be so rude in the future.


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## glenn forger (7 Feb 2014)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Really? What happened to the British "aplomb-iness"? In all my 30 years in the UK have never seen a street fight between drivers, plenty abroad of course.
> Seen lots of street fights between drunken pedestrians, but then I do live in Glasgow.
> Cycling here in the sticks is not normal yet, we are getting there slowly but surely.



My commute was through east London, I saw loads of road rage, fights, a man headbutting a windscreen and a cyclist who threw his bike through the windscreen of someone who nearly took them out. Parts of my ride took me through areas where 1 in 8 cars were uninsured, these are the vehicles that carry out the ten hit-and-runs EVERY SINGLE DAY in the capital. Of course they won't stop. They're uninsured.


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## coffeejo (7 Feb 2014)

Mugshot said:


> This works both ways though. Why should you accept something on the road which you wouldn't accept in any other walk of life? If I'm in a supermarket and somebody starts to ram their trolley into the back of my legs or push infront of me in the queue because they think they have a right to get to the checkout before me I wouldn't find that acceptable. I wouldn't start rolling around the aisles fighting with them but I'd certainly say something and dependant on the proximity I may well push their trolley. I don't think they'd hate every other shopper because I did that and they may think twice before they decided to be so rude in the future.


They push you, you push back ... let's assume that since they pushed you in the first place, they'll almost certainly push back. What then? You didn't walk away the first time, will you now? End result? You may well end up rolling around the aisles fighting, possibly resulting in a charge for both of you for disturbing the peace and maybe criminal damage.


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## nickyboy (7 Feb 2014)

glenn forger said:


> My commute was through east London, I saw loads of road rage, fights, a man headbutting a windscreen and a cyclist who threw his bike through the windscreen of someone who nearly took them out. Parts of my ride took me through areas where 1 in 8 cars were uninsured, these are the vehicles that carry out the ten hit-and-runs EVERY SINGLE DAY in the capital. Of course they won't stop. They're uninsured.



Come for a ride in the Peak District. I've done 8,000 miles in the last two years and never had any abuse, never had a close pass, never seen any violence.

In all seriousness, I suspect that may be at the heart of the differences in opinion. Urban commuters are in a far more dangerous environment than me, pootling around the hills of Derbyshire. My comments re criminal damage and "talking not fighting" still apply however.


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## GrumpyGregry (7 Feb 2014)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Really? What happened to the British "aplomb-iness"? In all my 30 years in the UK have never seen a street fight between drivers, plenty abroad of course.
> Seen lots of street fights between drunken pedestrians, but then I do live in Glasgow.
> Cycling here in the sticks is not normal yet, we are getting there slowly but surely.


Come to Sussex. I see at least a couple a year. TLH sees even more but they are quite punchy in Crawley where she works.


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## VamP (7 Feb 2014)

I agree that turning the other cheek is the correct response. I struggle with it myself at the time of being put in danger so very trivially by an aggressive driver, but realise that violence is not a constructive way to deal with it.


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## GrumpyGregry (7 Feb 2014)

ianrauk said:


> Indeed.. and we are not talking about close passes here. We are talking aggressive, bullying, peanut drivers, who will have no time or inclination to 'have a chat' about their wrong doings.


For the record, as stated in another, now locked thread, 

I only forcibly remove the door mirrors of vehicles that

a) are driven by twunts stupid enough to let me catch them
and only after
b) said twunt was previously stupid enough to *have brought any part of their vehicle into contact with me.*

*I'm not talking close passes. I'm not talking punishment overtakes. I'm talking twunts who have used their vehicle to assault me, intentionally or not.*


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## uclown2002 (7 Feb 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> For the record, as stated in another, now locked thread,
> 
> I only forcibly remove the door mirrors of vehicles that
> 
> ...



How often has it happened to you?


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## GrumpyGregry (7 Feb 2014)

ianrauk said:


> Indeed.. and we are not talking about close passes here. We are talking aggressive, bullying, peanut drivers, who will have no time or inclination to 'have a chat' about their wrong doings.


I'd like to see folk try to have a chat with some of the ****s that drive around Mid-Sussex. You may as well walk up to a total stranger and tell him he has a tiny cock and his mother dresses him funny. You'd get a calmer and more positive response than you will from any driver you have a chat with around Haywards Heath. And that's according to all our other cyclists at work, and members of my club. Me? I don't ever talk to drivers except to sarcastically ask the odd one if he is driving for charity when he is stuck in a queue. Complete waste of breath otherwise.


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## GrumpyGregry (7 Feb 2014)

uclown2002 said:


> How often has it happened to you?


You can figure it out from the OP.


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## GrumpyGregry (7 Feb 2014)

coffeejo said:


> Violence breeds violence. You can't banish the dark with more darkness - you need light to do that. Do unto others... Etc.


Violence can often be the only way to put a stop to violence.


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## coffeejo (7 Feb 2014)

I'll be honest - I wouldn't go out on a ride with someone who I couldn't trust to keep their temper under control. Nobody's perfect, I fully accept that. But I still wouldn't do it.


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## GrumpyGregry (7 Feb 2014)

VamP said:


> I agree that turning the other cheek is the correct response. I struggle with it myself at the time of being put in danger so very trivially by an aggressive driver, but realise that violence is not a constructive way to deal with it.


What is a constructive way to deal with it that has even a small chance of modifying driver behaviour, that's the question? For me it is now using a headcam and reporting them.


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## GrumpyGregry (7 Feb 2014)

coffeejo said:


> I'll be honest - I wouldn't go out on a ride with someone who I couldn't trust to keep their temper under control. Nobody's perfect, I fully accept that. But I still wouldn't do it.


Define keeping their temper under control please. A highly subjective measure. Ok if they scream and shout abuse?

I think that on 3 out of 5 occasions I did it in completely cold-blood some while after the initial contact. The petrol station was a temper thing though. It came from trying to talk to the driver calmly, getting a torrent of abuse back and him manhandling my bike.


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## Mugshot (7 Feb 2014)

coffeejo said:


> They push you, you push back ... let's assume that since they pushed you in the first place, they'll almost certainly push back. What then? You didn't walk away the first time, will you now? End result? You may well end up rolling around the aisles fighting, possibly resulting in a charge for both of you for disturbing the peace and maybe criminal damage.


So you stare straight ahead whilst they continue to treat you with an outrageous lack of respect? Let's up the ante a little, lets suppose it's a man doing it because you're a woman and they're bigger and stronger than you, so we allow them to because we wouldn't want to cause a scene?


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## GrumpyGregry (7 Feb 2014)

uclown2002 said:


> How often has it happened to you?


and the OP doesn't include the three times whilst stopped I've been hit from behind (twice at night, once in broad daylight) by the smidsy brothers and their sister.


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## coffeejo (7 Feb 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> Define keeping their temper under control please. A highly subjective measure. Ok if they scream and shout abuse?
> 
> I think that on 3 out of 5 occasions I did it in completely cold-blood some while after the initial contact. The petrol station was a temper thing though. It came from trying to talk to the driver calmly, getting a torrent of abuse back and him manhandling my bike.


I mean crossing the line from rational behaviour to the not so rational. What they do is what they do - but I wouldn't voluntarily ride with someone who willingly crosses the line.


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## uclown2002 (7 Feb 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> You can figure it out from the OP.


I can't figure out how many times you have experienced an example of this bad driving that warrants the retaliation you describe
You do however state how many times you had been lucky enough to catch someone and knock their mirror off.


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## GrumpyGregry (7 Feb 2014)

nickyboy said:


> Come for a ride in the Peak District. I've done 8,000 miles in the last two years and never had any abuse, never had a close pass, never seen any violence.
> 
> In all seriousness, I suspect that may be at the heart of the differences in opinion. Urban commuters are in a far more dangerous environment than me, pootling around the hills of Derbyshire. My comments re criminal damage and "talking not fighting" still apply however.


Every one of the 'touches' took place during peak hours on rural roads in SE England.


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## GrumpyGregry (7 Feb 2014)

uclown2002 said:


> I can't figure out how many times you have experienced an example of this bad driving that warrants the retaliation you describe
> You do however state how many times you had been lucky enough to catch someone and knock their mirror off.


Call it five times to keep it simple.


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## coffeejo (7 Feb 2014)

Mugshot said:


> So you stare straight ahead whilst they continue to treat you with an outrageous lack of respect? Let's up the ante a little, lets suppose it's a man doing it because you're a woman and they're bigger and stronger than you, so we allow them to because we wouldn't want to cause a scene?


See my above post in response to GrumpyGregry re: rational behaviour. If someone's treating you like that and has themselves crossed the rational/irrational line, it's like dealing with a toddler - you can't win. Best to walk away.


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## GrumpyGregry (7 Feb 2014)

coffeejo said:


> I mean crossing the line from rational behaviour to the not so rational. What they do is what they do - but I wouldn't voluntarily ride with someone who willingly crosses the line.


Now you've introduced "*willingly* crossing the line". My view of humanity is that we are no where near as rational as we like to think, and "fight or flight" is actually a rational response to danger.


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## GrumpyGregry (7 Feb 2014)

coffeejo said:


> See my above post in response to GrumpyGregry re: rational behaviour. If someone's treating you like that and has themselves crossed the rational/irrational line, it's like dealing with a toddler - you can't win. Best to walk away.


But surely there are some circumstances where intervention is the only rational/humane/moral thing to do? e.g. violence by another to another.


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## VamP (7 Feb 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> What is a constructive way to deal with it that has even a small chance of modifying driver behaviour, that's the question? For me it is now using a headcam and reporting them.



In the bigger picture? Rising above it, being the better human. Will it modify an aggressive individual's behaviour? Probably not. But at least you won't have sunk to their level. Like I said I struggle with it myself in the heat of the moment - but the rational part of my mind knows it's better to walk away.


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## sazzaa (7 Feb 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> But surely there are some circumstances where intervention is the only rational/humane/moral thing to do? e.g. violence by another to another.


 
Nah, I don't think so. Same way I wouldn't be violent towards a toddler having a tantrum. Plus, it annoys people more if you walk away and they're raging.


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## Mugshot (7 Feb 2014)

coffeejo said:


> I mean crossing the line from rational behaviour to the not so rational. What they do is what they do - but I wouldn't voluntarily ride with someone who willingly crosses the line.


I think it's probably unlikely we'd be going for a ride together given the distances between us, but I assure I'm not some snarling, frothing at the mouth lunatic and I can guarantee if you did meet me you'd never assume that I was. The incident I described is the only one that's happened in many thousands of miles of cycling for me, as I said, the damage to the wing mirror was unintentional my thought process was to slap the car and the reason I did it was because the driver showed a total disregard for my safety and drove at me forcing me to take avoiding action. I don't regret that it happened and I have no doubt that they will not be so quick to do so again, whether they hate cyclists or not now I don't know, I think it's unlikely, but I'll bet they're not so quick to try to force them off the road now.


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## uclown2002 (7 Feb 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> But surely there are some circumstances where intervention is the only rational/humane/moral thing to do? e.g. violence by another to another.


If it hasn't happened already you're going to get a pasting.


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## VamP (7 Feb 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> But surely there are some circumstances where intervention is the only rational/humane/moral thing to do? e.g. violence by another to another.



Yes but retaliation isn't it.


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## coffeejo (7 Feb 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> Now you've introduced "*willingly* crossing the line". My view of humanity is that we are no where near as rational as we like to think, and "fight or flight" is actually a rational response to danger.


I refer you to your own post:


GrumpyGregry said:


> Define keeping their temper under control please. A highly subjective measure. Ok if they scream and shout abuse?
> 
> I think that on *3 out of 5 occasions I did it in completely cold-blood some while after the initial contact*. The petrol station was a temper thing though. It came from trying to talk to the driver calmly, getting a torrent of abuse back and him manhandling my bike.


IMHO, you're describing someone who has issues with anger management - and I said, that's not someone I would want to go on a ride with. Sorry.


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## GrumpyGregry (7 Feb 2014)

coffeejo said:


> I refer you to your own post:
> 
> IMHO, you're describing someone who has issues with anger management - and I said, that's not someone I would want to go on a ride with. Sorry.


Where is the line IYHO?


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## coffeejo (7 Feb 2014)

Mugshot said:


> I think it's probably unlikely we'd be going for a ride together given the distances between us, but I assure I'm not some snarling, frothing at the mouth lunatic and I can guarantee if you did meet me you'd never assume that I was. The incident I described is the only one that's happened in many thousands of miles of cycling for me, as I said, the damage to the wing mirror was unintentional my thought process was to slap the car and the reason I did it was because the driver showed a total disregard for my safety and drove at me forcing me to take avoiding action. I don't regret that it happened and I have no doubt that they will not be so quick to do so again, whether they hate cyclists or not now I don't know, I think it's unlikely, but I'll bet they're not so quick to try to force them off the road now.


I certainly wouldn't go shopping with you


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## Dmcd33 (7 Feb 2014)

I've had incidents where the driver has tried to use his vehicle to try and push me in the gutter. One of them I stopped and went to speak to the driver. He said "sorry, sorry". Although looking back he probably didn't meant it. If he had not said sorry, I can only think adrenalin would have taken over and his front bumper would have come clean off. I glad it didn't get to that.

Another incident was a road rage maniac, who tried to drive me into parked traffic to get to his next red light . I hit his window hard, but it didn't shatter. again, glad it didn't. I met him at the lights and stood infornt of him and took two photos of his car. He tried to swerve around me, but another cyclist blocked his path after seeing what a loose cannon he was. Sent an email to the police, but because the photo was blurry, they said this showed ambivalence.

I will always avoid damaging a car, but can definately see why it gets to that point. The fact that your on a bike and another human being thinks it's Ok to intentionally run you over, thats where my animal survival instinct kicks in and I loose most of my self control.

Saying all this. The 16 miles a day I do in London are pretty uneventful and the vast majority of cars cause me no problems.


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## Mugshot (7 Feb 2014)

sazzaa said:


> Nah, I don't think so. Same way I wouldn't be violent towards a toddler having a tantrum. *Plus, it annoys people more if you walk away and they're raging.*


Not necessarily, many times that's exactly what they want, I'm not suggesting that that isn't sometimes the better course of action but don't assume that by walking away the agressor sees it as you having a moral victory, they'll see it as you bottling it and they'll puff their chest out, throw their shoulders back and a big **** eating grin will spread across their face.


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## coffeejo (7 Feb 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> Where is the line IYHO?


IMHO, your description of cold blooded mirror breaking is different to what @Mugshot described about slapping the car as it was driven at him so I'd say the line is somewhere between the two. I know that when I get angry, my temperature rises (hence the term hot head????) so I think the loss of reason happens about then.


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## snorri (7 Feb 2014)

User13710 said:


> Come on Martin, sit in your car, look at the mirror - you know, the shiny bit - that's the front of the unit.


Nah, the shiny bit is the mirror side, the rounded bit towards the front of the car in normal usage is the mirror housing.


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## GrumpyGregry (7 Feb 2014)

uclown2002 said:


> If it hasn't happened already you're going to get a pasting.


So we should pass by on the other side because of our fear that we might meet Kenneth Noye or get a hiding.

I'm not sure I want fear to be my ruling motivation.


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## Mugshot (7 Feb 2014)

coffeejo said:


> IMHO, your description of cold blooded mirror breaking is different to what @Mugshot described about slapping the car as it was driven at him so I'd say the line is somewhere between the two. I know that when I get angry, my temperature rises (hence the term hot head????) so I think the loss of reason happens about then.


Does this mean we can go shopping now?


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## sazzaa (7 Feb 2014)

Mugshot said:


> Not necessarily, many times that's exactly what they want, I'm not suggesting that that isn't sometimes the better course of action but don't assume that by walking away the agressor sees it as you having a moral victory, they'll see it as you bottling it and they'll puff their chest out, throw their shoulders back and a big **** eating grin will spread across their face.


 
Yeah, but I'm a girl, I win by walking away.


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## uclown2002 (7 Feb 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> So we should pass by on the other side because of our fear that we might meet Kenneth Noye or get a hiding.
> 
> I'm not sure I want fear to be my ruling motivation.



Nothing to do with fear. Your actions are not a rational, measured, proportionate and lawful response to the situation.


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## coffeejo (7 Feb 2014)

Mugshot said:


> Does this mean we can go shopping now?


Oh ok, but there's no way I'm leaving in charge of the trolley.  LBS first though, right? Your treat?

Anyway, since the sun's shining, the sky is blue and the breeze is gentle (which makes a change for Somerset this winter) I think it's time for me to get out in the fresh air since the world feels like a better place on days like this. Metaphor? What metaphor?


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## GrumpyGregry (7 Feb 2014)

coffeejo said:


> IMHO, your description of cold blooded mirror breaking is different to what @Mugshot described about slapping the car as it was driven at him so I'd say the line is somewhere between the two. I know that when I get angry, my temperature rises (hence the term hot head????) so I think the loss of reason happens about then.


So you would not go for a ride with yourself as you are capable of anger and behaving irrationally? 

Your point on anger management is well made and an interesting one. Why do you think it is that my presumed anger management problem only ever manifests itself, via wing mirror directed violence, when I'm on a bike. (given it is 20 odd years since I set foot an a rugby pitch as a player).

I will admit to punching WVM back in August (no wing mirrors were harmed in this event) but he had head butted, slapped, grabbed and punched me before I laid a finger on him, the spittle flecks landing on my face were offputting and though he had permanently disabled my bike he had failed to disable me so I felt it was only appropriate that I should terminate his attack.


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## GrumpyGregry (7 Feb 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> But surely there are some circumstances where intervention is the only rational/humane/moral thing to do? e.g. violence by another to another.





uclown2002 said:


> If it hasn't happened already you're going to get a pasting.





GrumpyGregry said:


> So we should pass by on the other side because of our fear that we might meet Kenneth Noye or get a hiding.
> 
> I'm not sure I want fear to be my ruling motivation.





uclown2002 said:


> Nothing to do with fear. Your actions are not a rational, measured, proportionate and lawful response to the situation.


I think you aren't reading what you are replying to.


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## GrumpyGregry (7 Feb 2014)

uclown2002 said:


> Nothing to do with fear. Your actions are not a *rational, measured, proportionate* and lawful response to the situation.


I beg to differ. In my view, if we are talking door mirrors, then my response is rational, measured and proportionate.


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## Mugshot (7 Feb 2014)

coffeejo said:


> Oh ok, but there's no way I'm leaving in charge of the trolley.


That's probably fair


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## uclown2002 (7 Feb 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> I beg to differ. In my view, if we are talking door mirrors, then my response is rational, measured and proportionate.


Perhaps in your world.


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## GrumpyGregry (7 Feb 2014)

uclown2002 said:


> Perhaps in your world.


No perhaps about it. They've hit me with a motor vehicle. Sheer luck I'm still here to complain about it.


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## nickyboy (7 Feb 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> I beg to differ. In my view, if we are talking door mirrors, then my response is rational, measured and proportionate.



And therein lies the nub of this discussion. I happen to think your response is irrational, unmeasured and disproportionate. You can bang on about all the reasons why you think otherwise but we won't agree.

Interestingly, the law wouldn't agree with you either


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## HLaB (7 Feb 2014)

Tooken off two mirrors in my time (none of them have been on purpose ). Filtered through a gap in poor visibility and my jacket caught a mirror (although it wasnt tooken off completely and just required me to go back, apologise and push it back into place). The second time was not my fault; a driver coming from behind clipped my bars and sent me to the floor and the mirror smashed to peices (It might be wrong of me but I hope it was an expensive mirror, especially as the police decided to drop the case and the driver gave them the wrong insurance details).


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## nickyboy (7 Feb 2014)

2916253 said:


> We?



"we" as in @GrumpyGregry and me


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## glenn forger (7 Feb 2014)

I remember one where a car came out of a side road on my right and turned towards me, but it was a lazy turn, way over my side, i veered sharp left and still took his wing mirror off with my bars. he slowed, I stopped, he drove away. I kicked his mirror out of the road.


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## Linford (7 Feb 2014)

2916253 said:


> We?




Yes..we

I've had a few instances where I've folded back a door mirror where an oncoming car which has an obstruction has tried to put me on the pavement as they think they automatically have priority over a cycle because they are bigger, but no, I've not felt the need to inflict £300+ worth of damage to let them know they are in the wrong.

Funny enough, the last one to do it declared themself to be a fully paid up CTC member, and insisted I had no right to ride through a cycle plug/no entry for cars...and that was why he tried to squeeze me out.


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## green1 (7 Feb 2014)

Totally wrong IMO, Following that logic does that mean the Peds are allowed to kick all the spokes out red light jumpers back wheels when they are nearly run down?


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## glenn forger (7 Feb 2014)

Only if you think hurting people is the same as damaging property.


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## green1 (7 Feb 2014)

And if the bso doesn't have a mirror?


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## GrumpyGregry (7 Feb 2014)

nickyboy said:


> And therein lies the nub of this discussion. I happen to think your response is irrational, unmeasured and disproportionate. You can bang on about all the reasons why you think otherwise but we won't agree.



Indeed. That is the nub. I'm not looking for validation of my position from complete strangers. I'm just interested in your opinion. Whether we agree or not is immaterial. It's an exchange of ideas I'm after. But inevitably such a touchy subject has also drawn out some fairly preachy responses and cod-psychoanalysis. But even those responses are interesting in themselves.



nickyboy said:


> Interestingly, the law wouldn't agree with you either


Depends on what you mean by "the law." Another story... Zzzzzzzzz

I once reported a driver to Crackdown, it's recorded on here somewhere, who tried quite hard to kill me in her husband's company car. Which I kicked, and damaged, in a vain attempted to get her to move over rather than crush me against an earth bank whilst squeezing past, with about a 3mph speed differential, on a blind brow in the face of a vehicle coming the other way. I, deservedly, got a letter of reprimand from plod as a result of my actions. I admitted what the law says is criminal damage. The servants of the law decided my actions were not worth prosecuting. Cue said woman going potty.

The letter was delivered in person at the local station as it is down the road from where I work. The traffic sergeant grinned his way through the entire conversation with me and his parting words were "I reckon she got off quite lightly. If it had been me...."


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## GrumpyGregry (7 Feb 2014)

green1 said:


> Totally wrong IMO, Following that logic does that mean the Peds are allowed to kick all the spokes out red light jumpers back wheels when they are nearly run down?


Does that mean Pedestrians are allowed to kick all the spokes out of a red light jumpers back wheels when the RLJ-er actually makes contact with them? Yes. The RLJ-er just assaulted them.


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## Stu Plows (7 Feb 2014)

Can see why people do it... 

Just don't fancy my chances against a cage with someone having a bad day/temper in it.


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## Linford (7 Feb 2014)

glenn forger said:


> I remember one where a car came out of a side road on my right and turned towards me, but it was a lazy turn, way over my side, i veered sharp left and still took his wing mirror off with my bars. he slowed, I stopped, he drove away. I kicked his mirror out of the road.



If you connected hard enough to remove a mirror with the handlebars you would swiftly follow it onto the road....along with the 'i bought an airzound, but have never used it in anger claim  ....these are either works of fiction, or you are being very economical with the truth


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## glenn forger (7 Feb 2014)

I didn't say I'd never used the Airzound and I'll thank you not to lie about what I've said.

Cycle fifty thousand miles in London and we'll talk, you've never seen me cycle, you have no idea how I cycle so stop making stuff up.


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## slowmotion (7 Feb 2014)

Why doesn't somebody mention this thread on a petrolhead forum, just for fun?


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## nickyboy (7 Feb 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> Indeed. That is the nub. I'm not looking for validation of my position from complete strangers. I'm just interested in your opinion. Whether we agree or not is immaterial. It's an exchange of ideas I'm after. But inevitably such a touchy subject has also drawn out some fairly preachy responses and cod-psychoanalysis. But even those responses are interesting in themselves.
> 
> 
> Depends on what you mean by "the law." Another story... Zzzzzzzzz
> ...



As you say, my opinion is only that, an opinion.

However, inasmuch as the current law represents the opinion of the wider society in which we live as regards what is acceptable and unacceptable behavior, chasing after motorists and then damaging their cars (regardless of what they had done to you previously) is unacceptable. You can argue whether the law is reasonable or not of course, but as it stands, society's rules (in their manifestation in the law) say unreasonable


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## Rob3rt (7 Feb 2014)

slowmotion said:


> Why doesn't somebody mention this thread on a petrolhead forum, just for fun?



Because then insanity might team up with fiction in order to defeat motorist, in which case the world will end!


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## glenn forger (7 Feb 2014)

I think it's rather more unreasonable that a driver can smash into a cyclist's head with a wing mirror and kill them and then walk free from court.


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## nickyboy (7 Feb 2014)

glenn forger said:


> I think it's rather more unreasonable that a driver can smash into a cyclist's head with a wing mirror and kill them and then walk free from court.



Just because one thing is more unreasonable than another does not render the lesser one reasonable


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## glenn forger (7 Feb 2014)

What lesser one?


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## nickyboy (7 Feb 2014)

glenn forger said:


> What lesser one?



Premeditated removal of a car's wing mirror


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## glenn forger (7 Feb 2014)

I haven't suggested that, I said the only two times it's happened to me the driver was on the wrong side of the road. Their fault. The fact they scarpered both times suggests they weren't bothered or were anxious not to involve Johnny Law.


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## nickyboy (7 Feb 2014)

glenn forger said:


> I've done it, never on the bike, but if someone parks on the pavement I may be less careful about scraping a key down three panels of the car and taking the wing mirror off. No point doing it on a bike because so many drivers have no hesitation about using their vehicle as a weapon. A three-panel gouge will write off a £1000 car.
> 
> Good.



I think you're mindset is there for all to see. This is so far removed from reasonable behavior in my opinion there's no point discussing further. I'm out


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## coffeejo (7 Feb 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> So you would not go for a ride with yourself as you are capable of anger and behaving irrationally?
> 
> Your point on anger management is well made and an interesting one. Why do you think it is that my presumed anger management problem only ever manifests itself, via wing mirror directed violence, when I'm on a bike. (given it is 20 odd years since I set foot an a rugby pitch as a player).
> 
> I will admit to punching WVM back in August (no wing mirrors were harmed in this event) but he had head butted, slapped, grabbed and punched me before I laid a finger on him, the spittle flecks landing on my face were offputting and though he had permanently disabled my bike he had failed to disable meso I felt it was only appropriate that I should terminate his attack.


Well, I can't remember the last time I actually lost my temper and I've never committed an act of criminal damage or vandalism. 

Anyway, this thread is now just going round in circles and I've nothing new to add. Au revoir.


----------



## fossyant (7 Feb 2014)

I've thumped a car that came to close, and twanged a door mirror from one bloke that was trying to knock me off but that's it. I could easily have done it to the guy that clipped me last week, but he had sped off and I'd have no chance of catching (access to motorway) and also there were very few 'escape routes'. 

The other down side, is there are far less cyclists in Manchester on major commute routes and certainly less 'roadies' so I'm quite identifiable. Smacking a car could easily catch up with me a few weeks later.


----------



## Jody (7 Feb 2014)

nickyboy said:


> There have been very few threads on CC that both make me angry and sad. Unfortunately this is one of the few.
> The motorist will not be more considerate of cyclists in the future. He will now hate all cyclists.



This ^. Everybody makes mistakes but that doesn't mean that you should damage their property. You have your p.o.v and they have theirs. 2 wrongs also don't make a right. Rise above it and get on with life!

Either this thread is full of Clarkson type humour or there are people out there who should seek help.


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## slowmotion (7 Feb 2014)

[QUOTE 2916688, member: 259"]When removing the mirror, does everyone favour an old-fashioned rugby-style hand-off or are there any tuggers or kickers?[/quote]
Style is everything.


----------



## Jody (7 Feb 2014)

2916780 said:


> Help from our police and judicial system?



Help from mental professionals if your kicking wing mirrors off cars. Which then makes you as bad as the people you are attacking.

Yes the police could back up whatever sections of society better and hand out appropriate sentences but that is discussion for another thread.


----------



## benb (7 Feb 2014)

Jody said:


> Which then makes you as bad as the people you are attacking.



Only if you think damaging a wing mirror is as bad as injuring or killing someone.


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## Leodis (7 Feb 2014)

More of a screamer/yeller/hand guesture cyclist than physical damage.


----------



## Jody (7 Feb 2014)

benb said:


> Only if you think damaging a wing mirror is as bad as injuring or killing someone.



Obviously serious injury or death is different to a damaged wing mirror. But a near miss is just that. What if every time you had a near miss in a car (not your fault) you got out and attacked the driver or damaged their car? Does the law protect you because you had a near miss? No you get prosecuted for criminal damage, road rage or assault.


----------



## benb (7 Feb 2014)

Jody said:


> Obviously serious injury or death is different to a damaged wing mirror. But a near miss is just that. What if every time you had a near miss in a car (not your fault) you got out and attacked the driver or damaged their car? Does the law protect you because you had a near miss? No you get prosecuted for criminal damage, road rage or assault.



The OP said he only did it when contact occurred. I.E. when it was just luck that he wasn't injured or killed.
If you think that's no worse than damaging a wing mirror, I worry.

BTW, I'm not saying the OP is right to do what he did, but pretending that both actions are morally equivalent is ludicrous.


----------



## GrumpyGregry (7 Feb 2014)

Flying Dodo said:


> Motorists will see it differently. Motorist on motorist conflict is the same herd. Remember that cyclists are different and stick out more.


Motorists regard WVM as an out-group yes?


----------



## GrumpyGregry (7 Feb 2014)

> I think you're mindset is there for all to see. This is so far removed from reasonable behavior in my opinion there's no point discussing further. I'm out





> Well, I can't remember the last time I actually lost my temper and I've never committed an act of criminal damage or vandalism.
> 
> Anyway, this thread is now just going round in circles and I've nothing new to add. Au revoir.


Who is the current arbiter of flouncery?


----------



## GrumpyGregry (7 Feb 2014)

Leodis said:


> More of a screamer/yeller/hand guesture cyclist than physical damage.


The more room when passing please gesture.... you know the one...

...that's what set WVM man off in August. Worst piece of conflict I've ever been in two-wheels or four.


----------



## GrumpyGregry (7 Feb 2014)

benb said:


> The OP said he only did it when contact occurred. I.E. when it was just luck that he wasn't injured or killed.
> If you think that's no worse than damaging a wing mirror, I worry.
> 
> BTW, I'm not saying the OP is right to do what he did, but pretending that both actions are morally equivalent is ludicrous.


The OP isn't saying the OP is right to do what he did. The OP is just saying what he did. And asking people's opinions and trying to understand their viewpoint.

The OP has found a better way; a headcam.

EDIT sorry @benb not aimed at you, just posting for clarity.


----------



## theclaud (7 Feb 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> Who is the current arbiter of flouncery?


It remains Smeglington. The post is not susceptible to re-election.

@Smeggers II!


----------



## GrumpyGregry (7 Feb 2014)

Jody said:


> Obviously serious injury or death is different to a damaged wing mirror. But a near miss is just that. What if every time you had a near miss in a car (not your fault) you got out and attacked the driver or damaged their car? Does the law protect you because you had a near miss? No you get prosecuted for criminal damage, road rage or assault.


Never done it after a near miss. A miss is as good as a mile. But when you end up with torn i.e. ruined bibs £90 a pair and a bruised and grazed arse check, irreplaceable, or lying on the verge with a dead arm and a passer-by asking "WTF?" because a nobber-driver can't be bothered to pull over to overtake you can only conclude that no 'near miss' was involved.


----------



## GrumpyGregry (7 Feb 2014)

Jody said:


> Help from mental professionals if your kicking wing mirrors off cars. Which then* makes you as bad as the people you are attacking*.
> 
> Yes the police could back up whatever sections of society better and hand out appropriate sentences but that is discussion for another thread.


I disagree. They are attacking my person with their property. I am attacking their property with my person.

Dog bites man.
Man bites dog.

Not the same thing at all.


----------



## Linford (7 Feb 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> I disagree. They are attacking my person with their property. I am attacking their property with my person.
> 
> Dog bites man.
> Man bites dog.
> ...



Attack implies they have done it deliberately


----------



## GrumpyGregry (7 Feb 2014)

nickyboy said:


> As you say, my opinion is only that, an opinion.
> 
> However, inasmuch as the current law represents the opinion of the wider society in which we live as regards what is acceptable and unacceptable behavior, *chasing after motorists* and then damaging their cars (regardless of what they had done to you previously) is unacceptable. You can argue whether the law is reasonable or not of course, but as it stands, society's rules (in their manifestation in the law) say unreasonable



I have never, ever, in my life chased after a motorist. Pointless on my commute except in the last 3km where, very often there is a 2.n long solid queue of cars at which point, depending on how late in my journey the knobjockey struck me, I often pass the twunt.

Even in the case of the petrol station I rode past while he was filling up and simply turned off to have a polite calm chat. But he could only, like good authors in the song, use four letter words and got all hands-on with my bike.

(and I gambled that he wouldn't drive off without paying.)


----------



## Linford (7 Feb 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> I have never, ever, in my life chased after a motorist. Pointless on my commute except in the last 3km where, very often there is a 2.n long solid queue of cars at which point, depending on how late in my journey the knobjockey struck me, I often pass the twunt.
> 
> Even in the case of the petrol station I rode past while he was filling up and simply turned off to have a polite calm chat. But he could only, like good authors in the song, use four letter words and got *all hands-on with my bike*.
> 
> (and I gambled that he wouldn't drive off without paying.)



Was that before or after you have damaged his property ?


----------



## theclaud (7 Feb 2014)

2915824 said:


> It is just a simple matter of perception. *Like those city centre maps that have sprung up everywhere that aren't orientated north but the direction you are facing.*



Never mind drivers and their wing mirrors. This sort of thing clearly demands violent retaliation.


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## Shadowfax (7 Feb 2014)

Wowzers !

Worried.


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## lejogger (7 Feb 2014)

I witnessed an incident last week where a motorist honked their horn repeatedly and then got involved in loud and angry verbals with a cyclist who had the cheek to cycle down a cycle lane and enter the ASL zone in front of them.
It continued to the next set of lights whereby the cyclist calmly pulled up behind them, opened their boot and cycled off into the distance.

A little childish, but probably hugely satisfying to the cyclist, infuriating to the motorist, yet no damage to either party or their belongings.

A cyclist has no right to damage someone else's property, no matter how wronged they may feel, and certainly not out of anger or frustration. There are better, more legal, and more appropriate ways to show your feelings than criminal damage.


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## GrumpyGregry (7 Feb 2014)

[QUOTE 2917109, member: 45"]Can I gave a tmn?[/quote]
you may.


----------



## GrumpyGregry (7 Feb 2014)

lejogger said:


> There are better, more legal, and more appropriate ways to show your feelings than criminal damage.


such as....?


----------



## glenn forger (7 Feb 2014)

nickyboy said:


> I think you're mindset is there for all to see. This is so far removed from reasonable behavior in my opinion there's no point discussing further. I'm out



If you hadn't flounced I'd say I agree.

It's selfish, anti-social, it places other people in danger because fat idle cretins can't be bothered to walk ten feet. People who park on the pavement are breaking the law and placing vulnerable road users in danger, if their stupid three-piece-suite with engine attached gets damaged when they abandon it in a dangerous place it cheers me up no end.


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## 400bhp (7 Feb 2014)

lejogger said:


> It continued to the next set of lights whereby the cyclist calmly pulled up behind them, opened their boot and cycled off into the distance.


----------



## deptfordmarmoset (7 Feb 2014)

I've never wanted to damage a car mirror. But whenever I've been hit I want to hurt the person supposedly in charge of the vehicle that they used.


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## GrumpyGregry (7 Feb 2014)

[QUOTE 2917114, member: 45"]Sorry, meant to say hive not gave.[/quote]
Did you really mean to say hive?


----------



## GrumpyGregry (7 Feb 2014)

2917611 said:


> It was a vowel swap


I though he'd gone all posh!


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## GrumpyGregry (7 Feb 2014)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> I've never wanted to damage a car mirror. But whenever I've been hit I want to hurt the person supposedly in charge of the vehicle that they used.


When I've been properly offed I just want to be able to stand up not lamp someone.


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## GrumpyGregry (7 Feb 2014)

2917620 said:


> Leave orf, he's a Brumie.


It has more canals than Venice, more trees than the Bois de Boulogne, it has the Royal Ballet and the City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra. It has Solihull and Sutton Coldfield. A decent cricket ground. Bromsgrove and Harborne. Knowle is lovely. I'd go and live there if all the locals promised never to speak aloud. Yes, I'm sorry, I'm accentist.

though I accept that once upon a time everyone in ingerlund dwelling within the former kingdom of mercia, of which London was but a minor trading post and port, used to speak that way.


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## GrumpyGregry (7 Feb 2014)

2917703 said:


> A tricky challenge.


Low expectations. Always a victim of low expectations.


----------



## GrumpyGregry (8 Feb 2014)

[QUOTE 2917702, member: 45"]Don't forget Bournville, the Lunar Society, Tolkein, Rev W Awdry, Ocean Colour Scene and Ozzie. And the voice of the balls.[/quote]
Bournville, not so much. Lunar society, bunch of nobbers, Tolkien nobber fantasist, Awdry, nobber train spotter, OCS nobber band but an ok cleaning company, and Ozzie, metalhead nobber. And my balls have no voice.

You got a lot of nobbers in Brum.


----------



## slowmotion (8 Feb 2014)

[QUOTE 2917702, member: 45"]Don't forget Bournville, the Lunar Society, Tolkein, Rev W Awdry, Ocean Colour Scene and Ozzie. And the voice of the balls.[/quote]
..and this cultural summit....
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0057741/


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## GrumpyGregry (8 Feb 2014)

slowmotion said:


> ..and this cultural summit....
> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0057741/


don't knock it. I twice appeared on Pebble Mill at One and its successor Pebble Mill.


----------



## slowmotion (8 Feb 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> don't knock it. I twice appeared on Pebble Mill at One and its successor Pebble Mill.


 It takes real courage to "out" yourself.

Respect.


----------



## Smurfy (8 Feb 2014)

ianrauk said:


> Took off one car door mirror after the driver of the vehicle decided to dangerously overtake me very closely on a left hand corner whilst continually beeping the horn and tailgating me. I don't think the driver realised that they would get stuck in traffic ahead. I stopped, asked what their problem was and got a sweary mouthful back. So thwack... mirror gone.
> No regrets and I would do it again.


Was it left hanging by the wires? I've seen the odd car driving around like that, and usually there is an arc-shaped area of knackered paint where the mirror has been dangling and rubbing against the door and the front wing!


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## theclaud (8 Feb 2014)

[QUOTE 2917700, member: 45"]You're cleverer than we thought.[/quote]
He's thicker than I thought. But I have ludicrously high expectations.


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## subaqua (8 Feb 2014)

Not me but someone who may be older than me and closely related ripped of the mirrors on a London bus many years ago with the immortal words

" you don't fecking use them so you don't fecking need them "


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## GrumpyGregry (8 Feb 2014)

YellowTim said:


> Was it left hanging by the wires? I've seen the odd car driving around like that, and usually there is an arc-shaped area of knackered paint where the mirror has been dangling and rubbing against the door and the front wing!


Thus proving said driver doesn't need/use/miss it.


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## GrumpyGregry (8 Feb 2014)

Apropo of nothing much the door mirror on TLH's car got smashed last night by a passing car. AGAIN!

Odd but no note was left by the offending driver. Perhaps they are all selfish nobber-twunts after all?


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## GrumpyGregry (8 Feb 2014)

2917938 said:


> True but, along with the empty shell version, the folded in against the door version etc it stands as a useful warning to be very careful near that vehicle.


Defective lights always suggests to me that I'm in the presence of a nobber-twunt. And defective lights on cars are waaay more common than ninja cyclists yet drivers rarely complain.


----------



## GrumpyGregry (8 Feb 2014)

2917950 said:


> If the opportunity arises I tell drivers that they have a defective light. Most thank, some though reply in terms that show they already knew and really don't care.


In these parts ime that split is about 20:70 with 10% seeming to have comprehension problems. But I only converse with the executive classes. Baffles me when lots of modern cars have nag dashes that tell you have a bulb gone.

How very dare that pleb on a pushbike speak to me state of mind prevails in co car driving hive.

Yet more reason not to speak to Sussex/Surrey drivera


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## lejogger (8 Feb 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> such as....?


Well such as the example in my post... I assumed that was implied.


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## GrumpyGregry (8 Feb 2014)

lejogger said:


> Well such as the example in my post... I assumed that was implied.


Opening someone's boot whilst the vehicle is in use is legal and appropriate

Oh. Right. I see.


----------



## lejogger (8 Feb 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> Opening someone's boot whilst the vehicle is in use is legal and appropriate
> 
> Oh. Right. I see.


In my own humble opinion it's more appropriate than causing hundreds of pounds worth of damage to someone's property. 

From the view of a witnessing policeman, what do you think the action would be in each case?

I concede that strictly speaking it's probably not advisable to open a car boot when someone is stopped at the lights but you're not likely to end up in the nick. 

Smashing someone's wing mirror on purpose, in my view is along the same lines as a mindless vandal smashing a phone box or a shop window. 

I'm sure most of us have made errors in judgement both as cyclists and indeed motorists. Who are you to say that the suitable punishment for such an offence is the expense and inconvenience of a vehicle repair? If I make a mistake while cycling and offend a motorist, should I allow him to slash my tyres as suitable recompense?


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## Mugshot (8 Feb 2014)

lejogger said:


> If I make a mistake while cycling and offend a motorist, should I allow him to slash my tyres as suitable recompense?


Would your mistake be likely to kill, maim or injure said motorist? What if it wasn't a mistake by the motorist but a delibrate act of calculated bullying and intimidation?


----------



## Brandane (8 Feb 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> Apropo of nothing much the door mirror on TLH's car got smashed last night by a passing car. AGAIN!
> 
> Odd but no note was left by the offending driver. Perhaps they are all selfish nobber-twunts after all?


You sure it was a passing car? Maybe a passing cyclist, who remembered the car as having been responsible for something punishable, in their mind, by a broken mirror. 

Or perhaps just kids walking past looking for a quick thrill, which is what happened to mine a few months ago. I know because I saw the little brat doing it. Luckily when SHE kicked it, it just swivelled towards the front of the car and I stopped her second attempt in its tracks. Serves me right for parking it in a public road though, eh?


----------



## lejogger (8 Feb 2014)

Mugshot said:


> Would your mistake be likely to kill, maim or injury said motorist?


It's irrelevant really. As cyclists our mistakes may harm just as much as any other road user. If we hit a pedestrian at 20mph+ or caused a vehicle to swerve and crash. 
Our choice of travel is not a defence to act as vigilantes. 



Mugshot said:


> What if it wasn't a mistake by the motorist but a delibrate act of calculated bullying and intimidation?


Then I certainly wouldn't be looking to aggravate an unbalanced character even further.


----------



## Mugshot (8 Feb 2014)

lejogger said:


> It's irrelevant really. As cyclists our mistakes may harm just as much as any other road user. If we hit a pedestrian at 20mph+ or caused a vehicle to swerve and crash.
> Our choice of travel is not a defence to act as vigilantes.


But it's not irrelevant, you're trying to compare two things which are just not the same. As cyclists our mistakes are not as likely to harm as much as any other road user, to suggest so is nonsense.
It may also be worth pointing out that the vast majority of the people here are not talking about a reaction to a mistake they are talking about a reaction to very real or perceived threat.


----------



## Brandane (8 Feb 2014)

lejogger said:


> I witnessed an incident last week where a motorist honked their horn repeatedly and then got involved in loud and angry verbals with a cyclist who had the cheek to cycle down a cycle lane and enter the ASL zone in front of them.
> It continued to the next set of lights whereby the cyclist calmly pulled up behind them, opened their boot and cycled off into the distance.
> 
> A little childish, but probably hugely satisfying to the cyclist, infuriating to the motorist, yet no damage to either party or their belongings.
> ...


Quite an amusing story on this occasion, but could have had a different outcome if the driver had had his wits about him and was watching the cyclist in his mirror. A quick selection of reverse gear and moving back just a few feet and the outcome could have been frightening, if not sore!


----------



## lejogger (8 Feb 2014)

Mugshot said:


> But it's not irrelevant, you're trying to compare two things which are just not the same. As cyclists our mistakes are not as likely to harm as much as any other road user, to suggest so is nonsense.
> It may also be worth pointing out that the vast majority of the people here are not talking about a reaction to a mistake they are talking about a reaction to very real or perceived threat.


We are more vulnerable and we are less likely to harm others, but I don't agree that that should give us carte blanche to behave as we like, particularly if it involves dishing out our own interpretation of justice.


----------



## GrumpyGregry (8 Feb 2014)

Brandane said:


> You sure it was a passing car? Maybe a passing cyclist, who remembered the car as having been responsible for something punishable, in their mind, by a broken mirror.
> 
> Or perhaps just kids walking past looking for a quick thrill, which is what happened to mine a few months ago. I know because I saw the little brat doing it. Luckily when SHE kicked it, it just swivelled towards the front of the car and I stopped her second attempt in its tracks. Serves me right for parking it in a public road though, eh?


TLH was sat in it when it happened. THUNK! So yes. I'm sure.

But thanks for checking.


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## GrumpyGregry (8 Feb 2014)

lejogger said:


> In my own humble opinion it's more appropriate than causing hundreds of pounds worth of damage to someone's property.
> 
> *From the view of a witnessing policeman, what do you think the action would be in each case?
> .
> ...



See further up. the thread. I admitted criminal damage. The passing policeman though it appropriate and amusing.

And for the love of God, I'm not talking about people causing me offence. I'm not talking about close passes or blocking manoeuvres.

I'm talking about people who have HIT me, INJURED me, and HAD ME OFF my bike with their car/vehicle by reason of their bad driving.

Cue response of "Well, even so, be that as it may, how very dare you, et cetera."


----------



## GrumpyGregry (8 Feb 2014)

lejogger said:


> It's irrelevant really. *As cyclists our mistakes may harm just as much as any other road user*. If we hit a pedestrian at 20mph+ or caused a vehicle to swerve and crash.
> Our choice of travel is not a defence to act as vigilantes.


I fear you don't understand how the transfer of kinetic energy works. 

And, I for one, don't ride at 20+ mph around pedestrians.


----------



## Brandane (8 Feb 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> TLH was sat in it when it happened. THUNK! So yes. I'm sure.
> 
> But thanks for checking.


I was just wondering why they might have left a note then, given that "TLH" was sat in the car. Seems odd, but never mind, and thank you for clearing that up.


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## GrumpyGregry (8 Feb 2014)

Brandane said:


> I was just wondering why they might have left a note then, given that "TLH" was sat in the car. Seems odd, but never mind, and thank you for clearing that up.


Wonder away Sherlock. Off you go.


----------



## Brandane (8 Feb 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> Wonder away Sherlock. Off you go.


Don't like getting caught out telling little porkies then?


----------



## Mugshot (8 Feb 2014)

lejogger said:


> We are more vulnerable and we are less likely to harm others, but I don't agree that that should give us carte blanche to behave as we like, particularly if it involves dishing out our own interpretation of justice.


So we agree that as cyclists we are not as likely to harm as much as any other road user and we also agree that we don't have carte blanche to behave as we like. Where we seem to have a difference of opinion is whether we should turn a blind eye to any and all actions by other road users towards us.


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## Boothy (8 Feb 2014)

I've never done it, but if I did take a wing mirror off in retaliation for something, I'd be fairly worried about getting taken out from behind at some point in the future. I think I'd have to commute a different route/time of day or alter by bike/gear to make myself look different!


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## GrumpyGregry (8 Feb 2014)

Boothy said:


> I've never done it, but if I did take a wing mirror off in retaliation for something, I'd be fairly worried about getting taken out from behind at some point in the future. I think I'd have to commute a different route/time of day or alter by bike/gear to make myself look different!


Getting taken out from behind is a matter of routine on my commute. No need to break stuff first for it to happen.


----------



## benborp (8 Feb 2014)

I've taken a mirror or three off. I'd say semi-intentionally. Meaning that I'll take the hit of the passing mirror on my arm rather than my bars. They are designed not to offer too much resistance before breaking, but it's enough if the impact goes directly into the bars or arm while holding the bars rigid to have a cyclist straight off. I'm not putting the wing mirror there, I'm not providing the kinetic energy to break it, I'm not reaching out to get it, but I am making sure I control the impact so that it's not me that gets damaged.

I once removed one with my arse but that was purely down to the driver's skill and judgement.


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## Brandane (8 Feb 2014)

2918202 said:


> What note?


The post referred to:


> Apropo of nothing much the door mirror on TLH's car got smashed last night by a passing car. AGAIN!
> 
> Odd but no note was left by the offending driver. Perhaps they are all selfish nobber-twunts after all?


----------



## Brandane (8 Feb 2014)

2918222 said:


> Yes, I read that. I am struggling to see how that makes anything a lie.


Why would the offending driver leave a note, IF there was someone in the car which they had just hit?


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## Speicher (8 Feb 2014)

benborp said:


> I've taken a mirror or three off. I'd say semi-intentionally. Meaning that I'll take the hit of the passing mirror on my arm rather than my bars. They are designed not to offer too much resistance before breaking, but it's enough if the impact goes directly into the bars or arm while holding the bars rigid to have a cyclist straight off. I'm not putting the wing mirror there, I'm not providing the kinetic energy to break it, I'm not reaching out to get it, but I am making sure I control the impact so that it's not me that gets damaged.
> 
> I once removed one with my arse but that was purely down to the driver's skill and judgement.



Nothing to do with the size of your bum then?


----------



## GrumpyGregry (8 Feb 2014)

2918240 said:


> You would not normally expect there to be anyone in a parked car. I would stop, write a note and then get out to go to put it on the car.



When TLH told me some hours after the event when I got home she said the car turned into the leisure centre car park almost opposite immediately after hitting and smashing her mirror. She got out and walked the 50-odd metres to our house not being the type, on a Friday evening after a tough week teaching, to confront twunts in the street or in a car park. (Which is why she is my better half).

When I went to inspect the damage much later so as to order replacement bits off flea bay I was smiling at the irony of the situation, karma being funny if somewhat unfair stuff, and a tiny part of me hoped against hope that the driver had pulled into the car park only in order to leave a note of, at least, apology. Not that I would pursue them for the costs any more than I would someone who dinked TLH's car door in a car park. (see threads passim)

Some hopes. £30 quid later I've sourced a replacement cover and new lens. I think the motor is ok.


----------



## GrumpyGregry (8 Feb 2014)

Brandane said:


> Why would the offending driver leave a note, IF there was someone in the car which they had just hit?


If you are such a twunt that you hit door mirrors of parked cars with your own door mirror how likely is it your observational skills would spot a small, though rather cute imo, woman sat in the drivers seat I wonder?


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## Jon George (8 Feb 2014)

Thank you @GrumpyGregry for starting a thought-provoking thread. Whether you intended to or not, it deals with an issue that has provided me with the backbone to many a story: namely what is the appropriate response to what society considers bad behaviour? (This can range from a two-year old having a tantrum to one ethnic/religious group murdering another.) As is often said, when the good stand by and do nothing, then evil wins, but when, and how, should you respond? In my many years of experience in rough-pub culture (it was my local), sociopaths are not possessed of the skills to learn from the fall-out of their selfish behaviour, so resorting to criminal damage is a risky endeavour at the best of times. My gut feeling is that you seem to have experienced more than your fair share of aggressive drivers than the average cyclist and wonder whether, at times, your presumably assertive style of riding sometimes tips over into something more. I hasten to add that I am no fan of the current perceived wisdom which says victims should shoulder some of the blame for their situation, but I'm just as guilty as you of instinctively wanting to face down bullies and I know it's often difficult to get the balance right between rewarding bad behaviour by not doing anything, and a shrug of the shoulders. Keep safe.


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## downfader (8 Feb 2014)

Thinking back to when I was 19 I remember I did actually have a mirror off. Purely unintentionally though as I'd been passing parked cars at the time on my side of the road when a driver in a little van flew straight at me. I'd swerved to avoid him and pop! Off this thing came from a parked car. I left a note apologising and explaining what happened but never heard from the owner of the car. 

Had forgotten about that. Nearly 20 years ago.


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## benborp (8 Feb 2014)

Speicher said:


> Nothing to do with the size of your bum then?



My bum is of such a size that it must have been an act of immense skill and exquisite judgement, thank you.


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## GrumpyGregry (8 Feb 2014)

Jon George said:


> Thank you @GrumpyGregry for starting a thought-provoking thread. Whether you intended to or not, it deals with an issue that has provided me with the backbone to many a story: namely what is the appropriate response to what society considers bad behaviour? (This can range from a two-year old having a tantrum to one ethnic/religious group murdering another.) As is often said, when the good stand by and do nothing, then evil wins, but when, and how, should you respond? In my many years of experience in rough-pub culture (it was my local), sociopaths are not possessed of the skills to learn from the fall-out of their selfish behaviour, so resorting to criminal damage is a risky endeavour at the best of times. My gut feeling is that you seem to have experienced more than your fair share of aggressive drivers than the average cyclist and wonder whether, at times, your presumably assertive style of riding sometimes tips over into something more. I hasten to add that I am no fan of the current perceived wisdom which says victims should shoulder some of the blame for their situation, but I'm just as guilty as you of instinctively wanting to face down bullies and I know it's often difficult to get the balance right between rewarding bad behaviour by not doing anything, and a shrug of the shoulders. Keep safe.


splendidly thoughtful post. And thanks for the final sentiment
What happens when car driving sociopath meets cycle riding sociopath, now there's a question innit? Esp when cycle riding one is a big unit and not afraid of bullies and driver has got out of his car/van weapon.

of course I sometimes wonder if it is me and my riding style but plenty of folk, here and elsewhere, have ridden with me and found no fault they've shared with me. Ok User13710 doesn't like my singing voice, srw goes a funny colour if I turn up on my fixed, and Dell moans that I don't brake enough on the downhill sides of Scottish mountains. I will hold primary in the face of oncoming traffic on an SC because taking secondary on the road I ride to work invites the squeeze past. It isn't me preventing the overtake but the oncoming traffic after all.

I think locality is more of the issue. The town where I work is virtually a bicycle free zone. A fair number of my colleagues encounter the same behaviours locally; one of whom, my boss as it happens, lives in the same town as me and thus uses the same last 3-4 km (the choke of the B2115/B2036/A272 where all these incidents have happened bar one) commute to work 20km away. For the hugely fewer miles/hours of commuting he's done he's had far more close encounters of the turd kind than me. Given how often/long I was riding up from 08 until August last year, on rural routes where cyclists are always "unexpected" by the rat running drivers, who fit every SE stereotype going, ime, I think my hit rate is pretty low. Competition secretary of our club has been hospitalised by smidsys three times in last three years. Every member of our cycling forum committee was offed in the last 12 months and three had bones broken. They just accept it as the price of being a cyclist and campaign for segregated facilities whilst I prefer direct action.


----------



## Speicher (8 Feb 2014)

benborp said:


> My bum is of such a size that it must have been an act of immense skill and exquisite judgement, thank you.



Obviously, I should have remembered that Shadow once said, "Monsieur Ben goes slowly up mountains like Nairo Quintana goes slowly up mountains!"


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## GrumpyGregry (8 Feb 2014)

benborp said:


> My bum is of such a size that it must have been an act of immense skill and exquisite judgement, thank you.


I've seen his arse. "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle" et cetera.


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## gavgav (8 Feb 2014)

No. It's criminal damage and you are liable to be thumped by an irate driver or worse


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## benborp (8 Feb 2014)

2918323 said:


> When casting the CC amdram LOTR, Benborp gets to be one of the elves.



I can be an extremely angry elf...





taken just after nearly being rear ended by a dwarf in an Aston. I can't do the Quintana face thing...

And Adrian, less of the am...


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## GrumpyGregry (8 Feb 2014)

gavgav said:


> No. It's criminal damage and you are liable to be thumped by an irate driver or worse



Is assault a legal reasonable and proportionate response to minor criminal damage? Yet many seem to think it likely. Odd.


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## GrumpyGregry (8 Feb 2014)

benborp said:


> I can be an extremely angry elf...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


is one a professional ac-tor?


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## benborp (8 Feb 2014)

It's one of the things that I'll do for (not very much) money in theatre.


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## ianrauk (8 Feb 2014)

Once again someone comes up with 'you are liable to come up with an irate driver'.
People spout that mantra as if cyclists should just put their head down and run/ride away and that they shouldn't confront motor thuggery. Well whoop de bloody doo.. I tell you what, a car driver purposely endangers this cyclists life then you can be sure that this cyclist will be more irate and angry then any car driver will ever be. I will not be bullied, I will not be forced off the road. Car drivers have absolutely no right to intimidate, act aggressive or bully cyclists off the road. I am not talking about some crappy close pass I am talking about pure aggression by a car driver, aggression that can kill.


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## theclaud (8 Feb 2014)

2918576 said:


> That needs a bit more than a like.



One of these, perhaps?


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## theclaud (8 Feb 2014)

2918597 said:


> I must get you to show me how those are done, one day.


I knew you'd love it.


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## Glow worm (8 Feb 2014)

Ian is spot on. I just don't get how some folks even on here have been infected with the car worship virus so badly that a touch of minor damage to cars is seen as unthinkable, yet some driver's deliberate bullying, aggressive and life threatening behavior is 'just one of those things' us mere cyclists should put up with. Well f*ck that!


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## ComedyPilot (8 Feb 2014)

ianrauk said:


> Once again someone comes up with 'you are liable to come up with an irate driver'.
> People spout that mantra as if cyclists should just put their head down and run/ride away and that they shouldn't confront motor thuggery. Well whoop de bloody doo.. I tell you what, a car driver purposely endangers this cyclists life then you can be sure that this cyclist will be more irate and angry then any car driver will ever be. I will not be bullied, I will not be forced off the road. Car drivers have absolutely no right to intimidate, act aggressive or bully cyclists off the road. I am not talking about some crappy close pass I am talking about pure aggression by a car driver, aggression that can kill.


That needs more than a like....


A TMN perhaps?


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## Linford (8 Feb 2014)

ianrauk said:


> Once again someone comes up with 'you are liable to come up with an irate driver'.
> People spout that mantra as if cyclists should just put their head down and run/ride away and that they shouldn't confront motor thuggery. Well whoop de bloody doo.. I tell you what, a car driver purposely endangers this cyclists life then you can be sure that this cyclist will be more irate and angry then any car driver will ever be. I will not be bullied, I will not be forced off the road. Car drivers have absolutely no right to intimidate, act aggressive or bully cyclists off the road. I am not talking about some crappy close pass I am talking about pure aggression by a car driver, aggression that can kill.



The scariest pass I've had was nothing to do with aggression, and everything to do with not thinking and not considering that I don't like a car overtaking me at 120+mph (BMW M3)...he wasn't that close (as in brushing my elbow), but the differential was intimidating...I'm just convinced that all he was looking at was the position of the needle on the speedo.

The majority of close passes I would put down to people not appreciating precisely how close their nearside is to a cyclist, or that we may have to change our road position for a pothole or drain.

Sure there are people on the road who have a sense of entitlement to be there and to always have priority, but I would wager that they feel this irrespective of what mode they use.


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## Mugshot (8 Feb 2014)

Linford said:


> The scariest pass I've had was nothing to do with aggression, and everything to do with not thinking and not considering that I don't like a car overtaking me at 120+mph (BMW M3)...he wasn't that close (as in brushing my elbow), but the differential was intimidating...I'm just convinced that all he was looking at was the position of the needle on the speedo.
> 
> The majority of close passes I would put down to people not appreciating precisely how close their nearside is to a cyclist, or that we may have to change our road position for a pothole or drain.
> 
> Sure there are people on the road who have a sense of entitlement to be there and to always have priority, but I would wager that they feel this irrespective of what mode they use.


What are you on about?


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## 400bhp (8 Feb 2014)

Mugshot said:


> What are you on about?



It's sounds like it was the internet version of not listening.


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## Linford (8 Feb 2014)

Mugshot said:


> What are you on about?




A cock in a BMW who doesn't think....


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## GrumpyGregry (8 Feb 2014)

User13710 said:


> A cyclist being close-passed at more than 120 mph? Really?


Years ago there was a clip on one of those Police! Camera! Action! which shows where a bloke on a shopping bike on a DC gets passed by twunt in some racey nissan who gives him a foot. Whilst being chased by an unmarked police car which made quite a good fist of a decent pass. I'm sure I remember reading that Mr Shopper lost control in the slipstream and tried to sue the police.


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## Mugshot (8 Feb 2014)

Linford said:


> A cock in a BMW who doesn't think....


Did you get his mirror?


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## Linford (8 Feb 2014)

User13710 said:


> A cyclist being close-passed at more than 120 mph? Really?



Yes, around about HERE coming down off Racecourse Hill
The road is narrow enough for that to be fairly scary...why would I make it up ?


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## Linford (8 Feb 2014)

Mugshot said:


> Did you get his mirror?



No, he got caught on the lights further up, but by the time I was up there, they had changed and he was gone...I had some choice words lined up though..I was very peed off.


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## Mugshot (8 Feb 2014)

Linford said:


> No, he got caught on the lights further up, but by the time I was up there, they had changed and he was gone...I had some choice words lined up though..I was very peed off.


So you were going to get his mirror?


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## Linford (8 Feb 2014)

Mugshot said:


> So you were going to get his mirror?



Did I say that I was going to take his mirror off, or did I say I had some choice words lined up ?


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## Mugshot (8 Feb 2014)

Linford said:


> Did I say that I was going to take his mirror off, or did I say I had some choice words lined up ?


Ok, In which case I'll try again. What are you on about? 
BTW I'm impressed that you nearly managed to catch up to car which had previously gone past you at 120+mph.


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## Linford (8 Feb 2014)

Mugshot said:


> Ok, In which case I'll try again. What are you on about?
> BTW I'm impressed that you nearly managed to catch up to car which had previously gone past you at 120+mph.



We were approaching a set of red lights which run a cycle. I was doing about 30 down there at the time....I still didn't catch him as I've already stated.
Are you surprised that I didn't want to remove his mirror ?


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## GrumpyGregry (8 Feb 2014)

I caught and passed a whole stack of cars that had previously passed me, on a DC when they were doing 85+ mph, a couple of weekends ago.


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## Linford (8 Feb 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> I caught and passed a whole stack of cars that had previously passed me, on a DC when they were doing 85+ mph, a couple of weekends ago.



I don't disbelieve you!


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## Mugshot (8 Feb 2014)

Linford said:


> We were approaching a set of red lights which run a cycle. I was doing about 30 down there at the time....I still didn't catch him as I've already stated.
> Are you surprised that I didn't want to remove his mirror ?


That's fantastic!
I'm trying, and failing, to understand what you are saying in your post in the context of a thread about the rights and wrongs of removing a vehicles mirrors.


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## deptfordmarmoset (8 Feb 2014)

Mugshot said:


> Did you get his mirror?


Never assume on topic relevance.


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## Linford (8 Feb 2014)

Mugshot said:


> That's fantastic!
> I'm trying, and failing, to understand what you are saying in your post in the context of a thread about the rights and wrongs of removing a vehicles mirrors.



One action doesn't always automatically translate into another one....I don't feel he even considered how much his actions affected me, and so I don't consider that it was a belligerent act.

I'm trying to be polite here, but if you are joining the conversation, try and read what has gone before and that will likely save you some confusion.


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## Mugshot (8 Feb 2014)

Linford said:


> One action doesn't always automatically translate into another one....I don't feel he even considered how much his actions affected me, and so I don't consider that it was a belligerent act.
> 
> I'm trying to be polite here, but if you are joining the conversation, try and read what has gone before and that will likely save you some confusion.


I'm being polite too, if you care to read back yourself you'll see I contributed to this thread quite early on, whilst that offers no guarantees it should suggest that I have taken at least some interest in it. 
Your post about your 120mph pass and subsequent chase followed a post which pointed out, not for the first time, nor the second or third for that matter, that what is NOT being suggested is that a close pass is a resonable event to get too animated about. You then wade with some drivel about a 120mph pass which wasn't very close anyway, but it made you a bit cross.


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## Linford (8 Feb 2014)

[QUOTE 2918878, member: 45"]It wasn't 120mph.[/quote]

You were there as well ?


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## Mugshot (8 Feb 2014)

[QUOTE 2918878, member: 45"]It wasn't 120mph.[/quote]
Sorry, 120+


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## Linford (8 Feb 2014)

Mugshot said:


> I'm being polite too, if you care to read back yourself you'll see I contributed to this thread quite early on, whilst that offers no guarantees it should suggest that I have taken at least some interest in it.
> Your post about your 120mph pass and subsequent chase followed a post which pointed out, not for the first time, nor the second or third for that matter, that what is NOT being suggested is that a close pass is a resonable event to get too animated about. You then wade with some drivel about a 120mph pass which wasn't very close anyway, but it made you a bit cross.



It wasn't a chase  we were both going in the same direction...
For clarity, I consider passing a cyclist on this road at 120+mph to be an unreasonable thing to do...but I doubt that the driver appreciated what effect this might have one someone else moving at cycling speeds on a road of this width.

Did you follow the link, and if so what were your observations


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## Linford (8 Feb 2014)

Mugshot said:


> Sorry, 120+



I am no stranger to high performance vehicles...try not to be quite so condescending eh !


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## Cuchilo (8 Feb 2014)

To be fair you shouldn't have been on the M3 on a push bike anyway


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## Linford (8 Feb 2014)

[QUOTE 2918900, member: 45"]I don't need to have been.[/quote]

Paul, you are all talk. Riding a twist and go as you do is a long long way off this sort of performance.


Cuchilo said:


> To be fair you shouldn't have been on the M3 on a push bike anyway



Thanks for the levity


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## Mugshot (8 Feb 2014)

Linford said:


> It wasn't a chase  we were both going in the same direction...
> For clarity, I consider passing a cyclist on this road at 120+mph to be an unreasonable thing to do...but I doubt that the driver appreciated what effect this might have one someone else moving at cycling speeds on a road of this width.
> 
> Did you follow the link, and if so what were your observations


Unreasonable is not what is being discussed, deliberate calculated bullying and intimidation is. People not appreciating the effect their actions have on others is not what is being suggested, generally, as a reason to knock their wing mirror off, people that feel that being in a more powerful, faster, heavier vehicle who believe they have a greater right to a shared use facility that then use that vehicle to assert their assumed dominance is.
l have followed your link and i think you may be exaggerating a little.


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## Mugshot (8 Feb 2014)

Linford said:


> I am no stranger to high performance vehicles...try not to be quite so condescending eh !


I wasn't trying to be condescending I was correcting myself for @User


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## uclown2002 (8 Feb 2014)




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## Linford (8 Feb 2014)

Mugshot said:


> Unreasonable is not what is being discussed, deliberate calculated bullying and intimidation is. People not appreciating the effect their actions have on others is not what is being suggested, generally, as a reason to knock their wing mirror off, people that feel that being in a more powerful, faster, heavier vehicle who believe they have a greater right to a shared use facility that then use that vehicle to assert their assumed dominance is.
> l have followed your link and i think you may be exaggerating a little.



If someone tried to use their vehicle against me as a weapon, losing a wing mirror would be the least of their worries (if I were still standing). 
My point was that people can do something (because they can), it can be seen as belligerent, but the reality is it is just fueled by selfish desire, and they don't think any further than that. I'm not even sure that the white Audi altercation was anything more than everyone at that set of lights doing what so many people do in London..race between the lights.

It is really very easy to attain that sort of speed down there if you have a high performance vehicle...they don't call it racecourse 'hill' for nothing.

I've been riding litre class superbikes and 600 class supersports bikes for decades on both the road and track. I've had this one since 09. It weighs 162kg and delivers 110bhp to the back wheel (dyno'd). It could comfortably attain an indicated 130+ going up (not down) that road from the lights. 
An M3 wouldn't be a million miles behind its roll on performance from 80mph, and realistically any regular car can hit the 60 NSL from the roundabout to the brow of the hill before that 1/3rd-1/2 mile descent.
M3's are electronically restricted to 155mph....they still have a lot left in reserve when this is removed.


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## Linford (8 Feb 2014)

[QUOTE 2918995, member: 45"]Thanks.

It wasn't +120mph.[/quote]

What was it then ?


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## Linford (8 Feb 2014)

User3094 said:


> My life is enriched.



Excrement


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## Linford (8 Feb 2014)

[QUOTE 2919035, member: 45"]You've won. Take me, take me now.[/quote]

It isn't a boast, That car can easily attain that down there with a run up . It isn't my fault if you struggle with that Paul.


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## 400bhp (8 Feb 2014)

Linford said:


> It wasn't a chase  we were both going in the same direction...
> For clarity, I consider passing a cyclist on this road at 120+mph to be an unreasonable thing to do...but I doubt that the driver appreciated what effect this might have one someone else moving at cycling speeds on a road of this width.
> 
> Did you follow the link, and if so what were your observations



Where was this 120+mph you speak of? Google link would be good.


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## 400bhp (8 Feb 2014)

Linford said:


> M3's are electronically restricted to 155mph....they still have a lot left in reserve when this is removed.



You don't know much about M3's.


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## Mugshot (8 Feb 2014)

400bhp said:


> Where was this 120+mph you speak of? Google link would be good.


Post 280


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## Linford (8 Feb 2014)

400bhp said:


> You don't know much about M3's.


You don't know much about my local roads...


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## 400bhp (8 Feb 2014)

Linford said:


> You don't know much about my local roads...



You don't know much about M3's [repeat].


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## 400bhp (8 Feb 2014)

Linford said:


> You don't know much about my local roads...



Apols-could easily hit 120 there in an M3. -

M3's aren't restricted, you just go through 155 in 5th.


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## Linford (8 Feb 2014)

400bhp said:


> Where was this 120+mph you speak of? Google link would be good.


 If you have spent much time stood on the pit lane walls of racetracks on their start/finish straights, and also driven or ridden that same track and stretch at these speeds or higher you get a feel for this sort of thing. It creats a big shock wave which you feel as a bystander.


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## Linford (8 Feb 2014)

400bhp said:


> Apols-could easily hit 120 there in an M3. -
> 
> M3's aren't restricted, you just go through 155 in 5th.


Thank you... !


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## 400bhp (8 Feb 2014)

Linford said:


> If you have spent much time stood on the pit lane walls of racetracks on their start/finish straights, and also driven or ridden that same track and stretch at these speeds or higher you get a feel for this sort of thing. It creats a big shock wave which you feel as a bystander.



More so in an 1800kg saloon like an M3.


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## Mugshot (8 Feb 2014)

A masterclass in thread derailment


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## Linford (8 Feb 2014)

400bhp said:


> More so in an 1800kg saloon like an M3.



My word started with c and ended with t when it went past..I was not happy. I alway, always slow right down when passing cyclist there


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## Linford (8 Feb 2014)

Mugshot said:


> A masterclass in thread derailment


Some people won't accept an honest answer


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## 400bhp (8 Feb 2014)

Thing is, most peeps don't have a clue to driving something with 200+bhp/tonne at the back wheels.

As the saying goes, "anyone can drive fast in a straight line"


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## 400bhp (8 Feb 2014)

[QUOTE 2919110, member: 45"]He'd have been doing 95 tops.[/quote]

Actually, no Paul. Given the stretch of road Linford posted it would seem easy to hit 120 on that road. Plus, as he says, if he is used to being around cars moving that fast then he will know what it feels like. You get, what I can only describe as, a sucking in of air as it goes past Reading the difference between 100 & 100+ is pretty difficult though.


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## Linford (8 Feb 2014)

@User The sad thing about this exchange is that you are more fussed about arguing the toss over the speed I estimated the car passed by me than the fact that the driver didn't think that had I been pitched off in front of him with a blow out or pothole, that he would have nowhere to go ..either at your estimation or mine. Thanks for that....


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## Linford (8 Feb 2014)

[QUOTE 2919162, member: 45"]That's not relevant. We've all stood on a platform when the express has been through, but Linf thinks he's at last found some unquestionable invincibility which justifies his dangerous road speeds on his motorbike and is going to impress. It doesn't. 120+ means nothing. It's an exaggeration based on what he thinks is the maximum an m3 can do on that stretch and not something that he's able to accurately estimate while riding at a claimed 30 on his bike.[/quote]

Down that hill, i think he could touch nearer 140 in an m3 given he could easily do 100 by the railway bridge at the top with a clear run from the roundabout at the racecourse entrance. Stopping could be a problem though for the lights. 

I have not made any claim as to what I have or haven't done on the roads, but I have indicated nearly 140 on the racetrack (under Dunlop bridge at Donington and have the vid to prove it)..so I do know what it is to do these speeds.


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## Linford (8 Feb 2014)

[QUOTE 2919173, member: 45"]You said that he didn't pass you closely. To not make you wobble he was either not travelling at 120+ or far enough away from you to not hit you should you have fallen off.

Then again, this is fantasy land that you're choosing to get offended in.[/quote]

How wide do you think the road is there paul..you really do take the biscuit


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## Linford (8 Feb 2014)

[QUOTE 2919172, member: 30090"]Even sadder is the fact that you are chatting bollox and people entertain it.[/quote]
Put me on your ignore list


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## Linford (8 Feb 2014)

[QUOTE 2919186, member: 45"]You have. You've bragged about "giving it beans" and explained how you got caught speeding.[/quote]
So have you iirc


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## Danny Tuff (8 Feb 2014)

Not sure how I feel on this subject. 

Yes, motorists from time to time give us the jumps with some idiotic behavior, and that naturally evokes us to display a defensive emotion naturally, normally anger.

However, I don't feel the need to take up the act of criminal damage as a constructive reaction.


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## Linford (9 Feb 2014)

[QUOTE 2919202, member: 30090"]Why should I? You are the one talking complete bollox and the way in which this thread has gone is f***ing unbelievable.[/quote]
And you are now doing what ?

You just come across as a typical London cyclist who rides very aggressively, and feels that priority is something to take especially with the rljing you have previously boasted about. You command no respect because you give little and so invite confrontation....


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## gavgav (9 Feb 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> Is assault a legal reasonable and proportionate response to minor criminal damage? Yet many seem to think it likely. Odd.


Of course it isn't but that won't stop some people. Just get the registration number of the car and report to the police, without putting yourself in any more danger than has already been caused by the idiot behind the wheel


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## gavgav (9 Feb 2014)

ianrauk said:


> Once again someone comes up with 'you are liable to come up with an irate driver'.
> People spout that mantra as if cyclists should just put their head down and run/ride away and that they shouldn't confront motor thuggery. Well whoop de bloody doo.. I tell you what, a car driver purposely endangers this cyclists life then you can be sure that this cyclist will be more irate and angry then any car driver will ever be. I will not be bullied, I will not be forced off the road. Car drivers have absolutely no right to intimidate, act aggressive or bully cyclists off the road. I am not talking about some crappy close pass I am talking about pure aggression by a car driver, aggression that can kill.


Report them to the police and let them do their job


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## ianrauk (9 Feb 2014)

gavgav said:


> Report them to the police and let them do their job




Maybe, maybe not.
You are missing the point.

What I am not going to do is just stand there and do nothing, take abuse, just leave it or ride away because 'you may come up against an irate driver or make things worse'. Whether the police become involved is neither here nor there.

You take the abuse, run and hide ok, me.. I will stand my ground.


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## glenn forger (9 Feb 2014)

report a close pass? ha ha ha ha ha! he cops have said they won't bother doing anything about drivers on mobiles, going down the cop shop to report a close pass would be a complete waste of time.


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## ComedyPilot (9 Feb 2014)

Never been in the position to need to resort to door mirror tactics really, and I intentionally wouldn't seek to damage a vehicle - not my bag.

However, like others, I am sick of being driven at by dangerous threatening drivers. 

I will never throw the first punch, and am as amiable a chap as you're ever likely to meet, but get in MY personal space in a threatening manner and I WILL do something to you that will make you wish it had been your farking wing mirror.


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## Dan B (9 Feb 2014)

gavgav said:


> Report them to the police and let them do their job


OK, now try saying that again while keeping a straight face


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## GrumpyGregry (9 Feb 2014)

gavgav said:


> Of course it isn't but that won't stop some people. Just get the registration number of the car and report to the police, without putting yourself in any more danger than has already been caused by the idiot behind the wheel





gavgav said:


> Report them to the police and let them do their job



Yes. Very funny. But sorry gavgav your ignorance on the subject is embarrassing the other contributors to this thread.


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## Linford (9 Feb 2014)

ianrauk said:


> Maybe, maybe not.
> You are missing the point.
> 
> What I am not going to do is just stand there and do nothing, take abuse, just leave it or ride away because 'you may come up against an irate driver or make things worse'. Whether the police become involved is neither here nor there.
> ...



I feel you are confusing irate = someone who has a beef with you after they have been witness or have been inconvenienced by your actions
or ignorant = someone who has acted in a way which has put you in danger through an act of thoughtlessness
or lastly belligerent = someone who without provocation has targeted you for 'special' treatment because they think they can do so and get away with it.

Can you clarify what you mean ?


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## ianrauk (9 Feb 2014)

Linford said:


> I feel you are confusing irate = someone who has a beef with you after they have been witness or have been inconvenienced by your actions
> or ignorant = someone who has acted in a way which has put you in danger through an act of thoughtlessness
> or lastly belligerent = someone who without provocation has targeted you for 'special' treatment because they think they can do so and get away with it.
> 
> Can you clarify what you mean ?




It's simple. Someone has said we shouldn't confront a driver as it might make them more irate. Well I disagree.


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## jonnysnorocket (9 Feb 2014)

Have been following this thread with some interest, if you take the car & the bike out of the equation what are you left with............ an agressor & a victim? In some cases maybe. I know where I stand on this, I always have & will continue to stand my ground when my personal space or safety is threatened! I can count on one hand the number of confrontations I have had on or off a bike since the school playground. as for wingmirrors...... that's a nil for me, but a dirty great big dent in a door panel caused by a well aimed kick....


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## GrumpyGregry (9 Feb 2014)

My walking style needs a look to it seems.

Using the pedestrian crossing* by ours, on the way back from Waitrose on foot, wait for the beep beep beep start crossing and a 4x4 comes around the corner off the roundabout and just pulls onto the 'wrong' far side of the road to go past me whilst the light is still red.

Still speed limits and red lights are for plebs not wealthy beemer owners.

*built in a ridiculous position vis-a-vis the roundabout but they stuck it about 100m away from where they said they were putting it, outside the leisure centre entrance, at the planning stage.


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## GrumpyGregry (9 Feb 2014)

[QUOTE 2919210, member: 30090"]And immortalise Linf's answer to everyone, with respect to his style and method of posting which is borderline cockwomble trolling - no f***ing thank you.[/quote]
Don't dis da cockwombles.


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## GrumpyGregry (9 Feb 2014)

User13710 said:


> Nice attempt from a newbie to get this thread back to the original subject - well done, and welcome. Ignore the oafish trolls, you'll soon realise who's who.


Who you callin' an oafish troll. A trollish oaf maybe....


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## GrumpyGregry (9 Feb 2014)

Hmmm, let's remove car and bike.

If someone passed me on foot in the street and slapped me on the arse, hard, or on the upper arm, or back of head when doing so was utterly avoidable, and further up the street there they were, standing in a queue for an atm or something that I needed to walk past to get to where I'm going...

should I put my hands in my pockets, head down eyes on the floor and walk by without saying a word? just in case I provoke a negative reaction.


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## GrumpyGregry (10 Feb 2014)

gavgav said:


> The only ignorant person on here is you. I couldn't give a toss what you do and if you get clobbered for carrying out vandalism then so be it.


Nope.

Your suggestion that I, or anyone else, should report getting 'clipped' by a vehicle to the police and "let them do their job" is ignorant of what the police would regard as their job in such circumstances and is thus laughable. It can only be based in zero experience or a huge amount of wishful thinking. Or both.

What precisely do you think the police would do? Even in a policing area like mine lucky enough to have Operation Crackdown in place here is what they say they do...

*"The officers who administer Operation Crackdown will then research the information you provide and decide on the appropriate course of action. They will take into account:*

How serious was the incident?
Has the vehicle has been reported before?
Does the driver fall into a category considered to be at high risk of causing a collision?"
So if the officer decides being clipped by a car, whilst careless on behalf of the driver, isn't a serious incident, and most of them don't regard incidents involving cyclists "you weren't injured were you?" as serious, no further action. If it is the first time that vehicle has been reported, and good luck if you report the same vehicle twice as some look askance at that, drivers wouldn't target someone would they, no further action. And they are quite good at "you were riding in the middle of the lane sir what did you expect you were holding people up" and my fave "why aren't you wearing a helmet and hi-viz? Perhaps the driver couldn't see you" style ignorant victim blaming too. And there is no route of appeal or escalation. The officer decides no further action, that's it. (EDIT: re-reading some of my past correspondence with sussex safer roads partnership if the driver isn't a male aged up to their mid twenties, i.e. not in a high risk group no further action. So good luck with middle-aged female 4x4 drivers)

Our competition secretary was T-boned by a Smidsy whilst minding his own business on a group training ride. Several witnesses, ambulance and police called. Club members not independent enough as witnesses! No prosecution.

Part of my route, on the stretch where most conflict occurs, is in a 30mph zone with a radar controlled 30 sign. 80%, I've sat and watched and counted, 80% of peak hours drivers set that sign off. But the police and highways authority won't install a speed camera there. A good number, the vast majority, of drivers will pass me on that stretch in the face of oncoming traffic when I'm in primary or secondary or the gutter and doing 20+mph on a piece of road with double-whites, a blind bend hiding a petrol station exit and a 3 way mini-roundabout junction. Great fun when a queue of four or five try to go by, each following the other like a lemming each in the queue getting closer and closer to me and trying to squeeze past until the last one sometimes misjudges it and swerves into the space I'm in. A minute or two later I often pass them in the queue. Nobbers one and all. Do you think reporting them would make a difference?

Let the police do their job? Don't make me laugh.


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## Jody (10 Feb 2014)

Seen as someone reported or removed mine and GG's post. What is the purpose of this thread. Is it for validation of your behaviour? Is it to antagonise certain members? Do you feel what you did is right?

I just don't understand why you start a thread asking for peoples thoughts and then criticize or pick at people that don't share your view on damaging peoples cars.


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## GrumpyGregry (10 Feb 2014)

Jody said:


> Seen as someone reported or removed mine and GG's post.


Really? Well it wasn't me.


> What is the purpose of this thread.


See various posts by me, as I started it, above; to discuss / debate the matter with other cyclists especially those whose viewpoint is markedly different to my own. But threads take on a life of their own once they get going...


> Is it for validation of your behaviour?


Nope. It is for exploration of opinions on my behaviour.


> Is it to antagonise certain members?


I cannot be responsible for how other folk choose to feel about my actions and opinions. If they feel antagonised that would be their bag to deal with. It would be an odd forum if we could not start threads in which others could not disagree with us. People I know somewhat, have ridden with, and whom I like and respect, have disagreed with me on this one in this thread. Others have agreed. People I don't know at all, have never ridden with, and whom I neither know nor as a consequence am able to respect as flesh and blood people have disagreed too. Some have preached and attempted facile psychoanalysis. I accept I lay myself open to this in posting.


> Do you feel what you did is right?


Right? I'm afraid I'm one of those people who thinks that retributive justice has its place in situations where one is assaulted. Especially where the forces of law and order simply trivialise and ignore that assault. I regard being struck by a vehicle whilst cycling legally and carefully as an assault therefore I will respond towards my assailant in kind. So. Right? Depends, it is a subjective moral judgement. Justified? In my subjective opinion, certainly. But now I've found what I hope will be a better way.



> I just don't understand why you start a thread asking for peoples thoughts and then criticize or pick at people that don't share your view on damaging peoples cars.


Because the purpose of the thread was/is to stimulate discussion and debate. To engage in a conversation with others, not merely to listen to what they have to say and just nod in assent or hypocritically in disagreement.
iirc I've not picked at people, feel free to correct me, but their arguments.

I started the thread having seen another cyclist locally take off a door mirror with _her_ fist whilst I was sat, as a passenger, in a following car. The driver of which had very different opinions on the matter to me.


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## fimm (10 Feb 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> ...
> I started the thread having seen another cyclist locally take off a door mirror with _her_ fist whilst I was sat, as a passenger in a following car. The driver of which had very different opinions on the matter to me.


Now that is interesting, as I've been contemplating adding my twopenn'orth to the thread to wonder if there might be a difference between men and women on this one. I've never been hit by a car, thankfully, so I don't know how I would react, though I have made "gestures" towards people who I feel have driven their cars unacceptably in my vicinity. I'm not sure if I'm strong enough to take a wing mirror off.
(For clarity, I'm female.)


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## GrumpyGregry (10 Feb 2014)

fimm said:


> Now that is interesting, as I've been contemplating adding my twopenn'orth to the thread to wonder if there might be a difference between men and women on this one. I've never been hit by a car, thankfully, so I don't know how I would react, though I have made "gestures" towards people who I feel have driven their cars unacceptably in my vicinity. I*'m not sure if I'm strong enough to take a wing mirror off.*
> (For clarity, I'm female.)


You are. It requires very little strength if the right technique is applied.
The wee lassie I saw (she is tiny, from Scotland and at Uni on the south coast) is an incredibly strong cyclist and we sometimes draft each other when her training rides coincide with my commutes. She rips my legs off for a few miles and then we go our separate ways. Not that I commute by bike much at this time of year, but she would have been out for two-three hours when I saw her.


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## ComedyPilot (10 Feb 2014)

Seems like this is quite a contentious issue.

I drive and have never yet caused a vulnerable road user/cyclist to fear for their safety. I have never blocked their way, nearside or offside filtering. My driving has never caused a cyclist to feel the need to bang on my car door/roof/window to alert me of their presence/displeasure. I have never passed a cyclist so close as to cause them anguish enough for them to chase me to the next set of traffic lights and then re-arrange the rearward visual aids on my car. I have never parked obstructing a cycle lane to walk 5 yards to a highly-important kebab restaurant. I have never overtaken a cyclist round a blind lefthand bend and had to cut in to avoid a collision with another car thereby squeezing the cyclist to the verge/kerb/hedge. I have never driven behind a cyclist (in my 'safe' tin box) blaring my horn at them to intimidate them into getting 'out of my way'. As a result they have never had cause to scream at my passenger window and cover it in spittle.

Bit of a pattern developing here, don't you think?

I think we have a number of cyclists that are sick of being treated as above (and in other ways) by 'some' car drivers that they are more than willing to dish a bit of 'punishment' out the other way. It doesn't take much research on the web/here to realise the police can't do anything without independent witnesses or good impartial vid cam footage in 'close call' incidents, and as such 'some' cyclists 'may' be taking a little of the law into their own hands.

I stated above, it's not my bag, and I wouldn't do it myself (I don't think), but given some of the close calls I've had, I can fully understand why some cyclists do it.

A cyclist riding down a 'non fault' row of cars kicking every wing mirror off?

Criminal damage - no contest and no justification.

A cyclist knocking a wing mirror of a car that just scared the living daylights out of them due to any number of ways?

Still criminal damage, but perhaps the victim 'may' learn to drive around vulnerable road users with a little more care in future?

As @GrumpyGregry has stated this topic is a hot one and is being debated. Like it or not, our country has fallen ransom to car ownership, and drivers have become almost possessed in their little 'tin safes' and anyone encroaching on their territory is seen as a threat. (Just YouTube road rage). It is absolutely shameful that it requires the most vulnerable of road users to challenge the behaviour of the thugs in their biscuit tins......


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## Custom24 (10 Feb 2014)

I wouldn't knock a wing mirror off for the following reasons. Several posts in this thread have made reference to the fact that time is limited and with your adrenalin pumping, I'm guessing that you're not going to have a conversation with the driver before your retribution.

The driver may just be feeling guilty about what almost happened back there. People are pretty poor at accepting blame, but it is still possible that the driver is sitting at that set of lights reflecting on the incident. You come along, and whack off their mirror. I'd wager that any chance of the driver accepting blame for the incident has now evaporated.

The driver may not have realised what happened. You hope to give them a wake up call by destroying their wing mirror. Some drivers might wake up and assume that this was retribution for a failing on their part. I'd wager that what actually happens is the driver doesn't realise you've done it deliberately and ends up thinking that cyclists are a bunch of c***s who accidentally damage mirrors and then just ride off.

In any case, the driver now has to complete the rest of their journey without their wing mirror.

None of the above increase safety for fellow cyclists on the road.

Anyone who does this is simply venting their anger. And although I can accept that that might happen sometimes, I find it dispiriting that it's actually being encouraged, even lauded.

I also think that there is an interesting difference in the tone of this thread and the one where the cyclist admonishes a driver in London for encroaching on the ASL. In that other thread, the tone was very much against the cyclist. Why? Simply because of the outcome - fisticuffs.

I think that's a fairly likely outcome to a wing mirror smash as well, if the driver catches you.


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## theclaud (10 Feb 2014)

[QUOTE 2922959, member: 45"]I'm a chicken. *I tapped on the window of an Audi once and the psycho driver chased me down the outside of a line of traffic.* I was genuinely scared that I was going to be seriously hurt. I wouldn't knock a mirror off a car.[/quote]

That's just bad luck. they are usually scared sh1tless. Try it again.


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## GrumpyGregry (11 Feb 2014)

[QUOTE 2922959, member: 45"]I'm a chicken. I tapped on the window of an Audi once and the psycho driver chased me down the outside of a line of traffic. I was genuinely scared that I was going to be seriously hurt. I wouldn't knock a mirror off a car.[/quote]
0/5. No one has every chased me apres their mirror has gone awol. I'm chicken enough to pick my moment so that, for the most part, they aren't able to chase. (my only use for segregated cycle paths is as vehicle free escape routes from conflict, fnarr.)

I have had two 2 interactions with psycho types since 08. In neither case had I touched their car or spoken to them or made rude gestures. In both instances I'd simply shaken my head and done the 'more space please' signal after a 1" pass. Both stopped. Both reversed their vehicles AT me. In the second case, last summer, I ended up with a wrecked bike and he got a police caution.


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## fimm (11 Feb 2014)

You make some good points, but


Custom24 said:


> ... I find it dispiriting that it's actually being encouraged, even lauded...


 I am not convinced that this is happening. Others are saying that they have taken wing mirrors off, or could see themselves doing so. I don't think that's "lauding" the practice.

Here everybody, have a really big can of worms. Some male gropes me on a crowded Tube (note: thankfully I personally have never been in this or a similar situation). I slap him hard across the face. Acceptable?
(I'm not sure how helpful the analogy is. There are some similarities but I'm also aware I could be about to derail what has been a mostly interesting thread. It has been in my head for a while as I've been following the thread, though, so I'm plucking up my courage and throwing it into the mix...)


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## Dan B (11 Feb 2014)

fimm said:


> Here everybody, have a really big can of worms. Some male gropes me on a crowded Tube (note: thankfully I personally have never been in this or a similar situation). I slap him hard across the face. Acceptable?


I'm not sure how helpful the analogy is either, but it did spur me to realisation that there are two distinct arguments anti- the practice of door mirror pruning: some are saying "it's criminal damage, two wrongs don't make a right" and others are saying "it's dangerous, what if you provoke him". I'm not convinced that either of them are good arguments but they need addressing separately

To answer the question as posed, though: entirely acceptable, assuming there's enough room around you that you can get a good swing. You don;t want to elbow some other poor passenger in the process


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## Dan B (11 Feb 2014)

True, but the second subdivision of that group probably hated cyclists forever anyway


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## GrumpyGregry (11 Feb 2014)

fimm said:


> You make some good points, but
> 
> I am not convinced that this is happening. Others are saying that they have taken wing mirrors off, or could see themselves doing so. I don't think that's "lauding" the practice.
> 
> ...


Grope him back, your hand on his crotch and then squeeze and twist. Much more effective than a slap which can be hard to deliver in confined spaces.


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## fimm (11 Feb 2014)

I was more thinking of the "is a physical response appropriate, or should the hypothetical victim say nothing and report the incident to the police?" question...
(Useful tip though, thank you... I think...)


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## GrumpyGregry (11 Feb 2014)

Two wrongs don't make a right; I agree. could someone tell me what would make a right in the presence of the single wrong?

What if you provoke them; I'll take my chances. I was brought up, for better or worse, on a mantra of "never back down to bullies." on or off the rugby pitch. cos if you do they always win.

What if they hate all cyclists as a result; I'll take my chances. They certainly demonstrate a high degree of carelessness around them at the moment, a high enough degree that it looks and feels like hatred.


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## GrumpyGregry (11 Feb 2014)

fimm said:


> I was more thinking of the "is a physical response appropriate, or should the hypothetical victim say nothing and report the incident to the police?" question...
> (Useful tip though, thank you... I think...)


Is a physical response to a physical assault appropriate? Yes. Just keep it proportionate.

I have a theory, born of a limited experience, that some guys who grope girls on the tube, if not challenged, go on to do worse thing than groping girls on the tube....

TLH, when training as a nurse in London about 30 years ago, had the ghastly experience of someone whipping it out and jerking it off over her and a colleague on a late night tube. A few months later that same colleague, same tube, travelling solo, was followed off the tube and raped. She said it was the same guy. (Was it? Who knows. What really boils my **** is that he walked. And anecdotal evidence from the nurse's home was she wasn't the first or last.)


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## Jody (11 Feb 2014)

fimm said:


> I was more thinking of the "is a physical response appropriate, or should the hypothetical victim say nothing and report the incident to the police?" question...
> (Useful tip though, thank you... I think...)



What if you slap him and he goes on to assault someone else or worse. The police then have no knowledge of this or previous sexual assaults and you could have done something to stop further assaults.

I say slap him then report him!


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## GrumpyGregry (11 Feb 2014)

Good points well made. Thank you. My take on your arguments...



Custom24 said:


> The driver may just be feeling guilty about what almost happened back there. People are pretty poor at accepting blame, but it is still possible that the driver is sitting at that set of lights reflecting on the incident. You come along, and whack off their mirror. I'd wager that any chance of the driver accepting blame for the incident has now evaporated.


I'm not seeking to blame them. Whether they accept this blame or not is irrelevant. They are objectively responsible.



> The driver may not have realised what happened. You hope to give them a wake up call by destroying their wing mirror. Some drivers might wake up and assume that this was retribution for a failing on their part. I'd wager that what actually happens is the driver doesn't realise you've done it deliberately and ends up thinking that cyclists are a bunch of c***s who accidentally damage mirrors and then just ride off.


If the driver is so dull they don't realise what happened then God help everyone they encounter.

The drivers can be in no doubt that my actions were deliberate.

Drivers accidentally damage mirrors on other vehicles with a depressing frequency. and just drive off. do they think all other drivers are see you next tuesdays?



> In any case, the driver now has to complete the rest of their journey without their wing mirror.


Which they weren't using anyway.



> None of the above increase safety for fellow cyclists on the road.


t-i-c I disagree. No door mirror. Therefore they can't hit another cyclist with it. Therefore other cyclists safer and I should be their hero no?

Srsly do you expect all other cyclists to behave in ways that increase my/your safety. If so can you tell the majority of 'em to stop gutter hugging please.



> Anyone who does this is simply venting their anger. And although I can accept that that might happen sometimes, I find it dispiriting that it's actually being encouraged, even lauded.
> 
> I also think that there is an interesting difference in the tone of this thread and the one where the cyclist admonishes a driver in London for encroaching on the ASL. In that other thread, the tone was very much against the cyclist. Why? Simply because of the outcome - fisticuffs.
> 
> I think that's a fairly likely outcome to a wing mirror smash as well, if the driver catches you.


A risk I'm prepared to take. In the event of a second assault by the same driver but with any 'weapon' they had better ensure they disable me with the first blow or else their life will get painful very fast. I'm a big unit, albeit an old one.


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## GrumpyGregry (11 Feb 2014)

User13710 said:


> Other retaliations to being groped on the Tube are available - some women recommend shouting very loudly something along the lines of, 'GET YOUR HANDS OFF ME YOU F*CKING MORON, WHAT A CREEP.' Given the marvellous way in which this breaks the Tube Code of Silence, this can be more effective than violence by its sheer groper humiliation factor.


I'd like to see this deployed in combination with squeeze and twist. Just make sure the message gets across in a lasting way.


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## Jody (11 Feb 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> Let the police do their job? Don't make me laugh.





GrumpyGregry said:


> In the second case, last summer, I ended up with a wrecked bike and he got a police caution.



Which one is it? Surely you either advocate the use of proper channels and the law or you don't. 

Anyway, thank you for your reply earlier in the thread. I appreciate that you are only encouraging discussion on the topic and gauging peoples opinion. I just cannot agree that taking the law into your own hands based on your interpretation of someone 'assaulting' you. For assault there has to be clear intent to do you harm. Not just getting too close and touching you or making a bad decision on when to overtake. 

Taking a wing mirror off and scurrying away is not the answer. Why not man up, tap on the window and tell them what you think or where they have gone wrong.


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## Andrew_P (11 Feb 2014)

Jody said:


> Not just getting too close and touching you.


Have you ever had a car or van "just touch you?!?"


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## fossyant (11 Feb 2014)

I know a while back GG you openly admitted you had some 'mojo' issues about getting back on the bike. There are better ways of dealing with idiots.

There is no need to take wing mirrors off. I never have. I've been driven at, threattened, but just note the reg and let the coppers have the details. It goes as intelligence against the vehicle. We all know that two idiots having an arguement get's nowhere ! Look at that video of the guy with the Audi posted a couple of weeks ago. Idiot driver, idiot cyclist, and idiot passenger = a mess ! I am prone to shouting loudly at folk who do stupid things, but what's the point of smacking a car - then the driver is going to be 'hissed' - you know what folk get like.

Remember, they are the one in 2 tonnes of steel. Can't get away smashing mirrors in areas where there are less cyclists, especially if you and or your bike stand out. What's to say they won't jump out and smack you one when you are waiting at lights 2-3 weeks later ? I see the same cars day in, day out, and certainly notice the ones which are 'less ordinary'.

In a civilised society, someone has to be the better 'person'. *You've already got one idiot on the road, adding yourself as the other idiot can result in disasterous consequences. *

Must be something about you southerners ?


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## Jody (11 Feb 2014)

Andrew_P said:


> Have you ever had a car or van "just touch you?!?"



Straight answer is no. I have come across some arses on the road but never been unlucky enough for one to hit me. If its more than a touch then you will probably be on your arse. In which case you wouldn't be catching them back up and smashing their wing mirror off.


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## Jody (11 Feb 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> they had better ensure they disable me with the first blow or else their life will get painful very fast. I'm a big unit, albeit an old one.





GrumpyGregry said:


> I'm chicken enough to pick my moment so that, for the most part, they aren't able to chase. (my only use for segregated cycle paths is as vehicle free escape routes from conflict, fnarr.).



Again, which one is it?


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## fossyant (11 Feb 2014)

Andrew_P said:


> Have you ever had a car or van "just touch you?!?"


 
Lots of times, I've yet to deliberately remove a mirror though. I have removed two accidentally, one was a left hooking van, and I went through his wing mirror with my right shoulder, followed by a superman impression. The other was my big off in 2008, when a car didn't stop at a roundabout, and my left shoulder smashed the mirror before I was on the ground.

I was clipped last week by a speeding car, still didn't go after him. If I had done, I'd have had no escape route should I have been stupid enough to remove the mirror.

Oh and had a woman drive at me this morning, even revving her car. Appart from screaming that the lights had changed and what the flip was she doing, I didn't feel the need to kick the car or owt !


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## Andrew_P (11 Feb 2014)

fossyant said:


> Lots of times, I've yet to deliberately remove a mirror though. I have removed two accidentally, one was a left hooking van, and I went through his wing mirror with my right shoulder, followed by a superman impression. The other was my big off in 2008, when a car didn't stop at a roundabout, and my left shoulder smashed the mirror before I was on the ground.
> 
> I was clipped last week by a speeding car, still didn't go after him. If I had done, I'd have had no escape route should I have been stupid enough to remove the mirror.
> 
> Oh and had a woman drive at me this morning, even revving her car. Appart from screaming that the lights had changed and what the flip was she doing, I didn't feel the need to kick the car or owt !



I have never damaged a car or van either, but there is no way if anyone just "touched me in their car or van" would I let it be, there is no way in any circumstance that it can be deemed an accident. It has to be deliberate or negligence. When I have confronted close passes they are always belligerent which always suggests to me they knew full well what they were doing and they made the conscious decision to put me at risk to save them some time because I was slowing their progress, how in anyway any other person, let alone a cyclist can deem that reasonable behaviour is beyond me. 

Also I do not pick and choose the targets of my wrath I have confronted vans with 2 or more people in them or cars pumping out loud music filled with teenagers, tipper lorries etc and in my experience is they are mostly cowards which goes along way to explaining their actions behind the wheel of a deadly weapon. You just have to listen to these radio phone in shows to hear how a lot of drivers feel about cyclists to know that least some if not all instances of bad driving is a punishment.


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## fossyant (11 Feb 2014)

Ah Andrew_P, you haven't felt the need to drop to the level of thug and smash bits off cars either. Yes I'll have a word with drivers, but it's no more than a load of swearing before I carry on. You can't argue with an idiot, I've tried it. You criticise a driver, they go into defensive/aggressive mode. Never works. A quick 'Oi' with some added vocabulary usually get's heads turning, before I carry on.

Close passes don't bother me that much, not unlike others. I've come from a racing and club background and have been quite used to riding at high speed right up someones wheel. Close to me is when I can touch the car, and it's usually an 'Oi' and me jesticulating about giving room. I can't be ar$ed with stopping and trying to converse with a driver, it never works. Nor do I feel the need to stoop to their level and smash bits off a car. You become a thug then !


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## martint235 (11 Feb 2014)

It depends. In my new, calmer life, if there's a hint of an apology I'll tend to let it go. If not I have been known to chase cars for quite a while (even to the extent of straining my achilles tendon by launching into a full on sprint after a car in Tottenham whilst nearing the end of 100 miler). I'm trying to be calm, I really am but there are some pillocks out there that need a good talking to.


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## Jody (11 Feb 2014)

Andrew_P said:


> but there is no way if anyone just "touched me in their car or van" would I let it be, there is no way in any circumstance that it can be deemed an accident. It has to be deliberate or negligence. .



You can have an accident and be negligent. Negligence only means the act falls below the level required by law. For it to be deliberate the driver would have to make the conscious decision to hit you or get as close as possible. I don't believe for one minute there are that many people on the road who try to, on purpose, hit a cyclist.


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## 400bhp (11 Feb 2014)

fossyant said:


> Ah Andrew_P, you haven't felt the need to drop to the level of thug and smash bits off cars either. Yes I'll have a word with drivers, but it's no more than a load of swearing before I carry on. You can't argue with an idiot, I've tried it. You criticise a driver, they go into defensive/aggressive mode. Never works. A quick 'Oi' with some added vocabulary usually get's heads turning, before I carry on.
> 
> Close passes don't bother me that much, not unlike others. I've come from a racing and club background and have been quite used to riding at high speed right up someones wheel. Close to me is when I can touch the car, and it's usually an 'Oi' and me jesticulating about giving room. I can't be ar$ed with stopping and trying to converse with a driver, it never works. Nor do I feel the need to stoop to their level and smash bits off a car. You become a thug then !



You're generally right, arguing gets you nowhere and @Andrew_P is spot on, if they are belligerent it's because they understood what they were doing.

However, take a different approach, don't criticise, just try and put them in your shoes. It does work (albeit not always). I try and use the "bit close back there mate, just wanna get home to my wife and kids, stiff drink needed when i get home". Don't ask a question and don't necessarilly wait for a reply. Short and punchy. Most peeps don't want confrontation and the ones that do then nothing will help. 

Red mist still descends now and then, but it does no-one any good.

And, actually, I have been extremely contrite when a car driver (quite rightly) had a pop at me when I rlj'd. I was wrong, he was right. We shook hands. So, some people will apologise and understand where they were wrong.


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## Dan B (11 Feb 2014)

Jody said:


> You can have an accident and be negligent. Negligence only means the act falls below the level required by law.


What is this "only"? In law you have a duty of care. A duty, to be careful. And if, in law, you are negligent, that means that you do not care. To me this is not acceptable. Do you really think it's OK that there are people out there in cars who _don't care whether they hurt or kill people_? That's what negligence is, there's no "only" about it


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## Jody (11 Feb 2014)

Of course I dont think it is acceptable that there are people who don't care if they hurt and kill when using a vehicle. Very few people would. In the same way I don't this it is OK to murder or cause criminal damage or take the law into their own hands. 

Negligence doesnt mean you dont care. It means that you are negligent.


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## theclaud (11 Feb 2014)

Jody said:


> Of course I dont think it is acceptable that there are people who don't care if they hurt and kill when using a vehicle. Very few people would. In the same way I don't this it is OK to murder or cause criminal damage or take the law into their own hands.
> 
> *Negligence doesnt mean you dont care*. It means that you are negligent.



Negligence is precisely the failure to exercise care. The act of not caring. Sorry to pretty much repeat Dan, but it seems to be necessary.


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## Andrew_P (11 Feb 2014)

Dan B said:


> What is this "only"? In law you have a duty of care. A duty, to be careful. And if, in law, you are negligent, that means that you do not care. To me this is not acceptable. Do you really think it's OK that there are people out there in cars who _don't care whether they hurt or kill people_? That's what negligence is, there's no "only" about it


Put better than I was going to @Jody Don't get me wrong I am not ranting and raving every day of my cycling life, in fact I have a very high threshold for the red mist, and when the red mist descends I have to act fast or it has gone. The vast majority of motorists do show due care and attention for my well being the ones that don't if I have the opportunity I will point it out and this can vary from an f'ing and blinding rant to wtf I can't believe you just did that. The last time someone stopped after I had shouted oi, they asked what my problem was, when I said you were so close I could see what radio station you were tuned into I got the reply "well there were cars coming the other way" they didn't have an answer when I said "so you would rather possibly hit me than wait or hit the other cars?" and then sped off gesturing out the window.

Now I am not a small built bloke and I suspect when I got up to the window I didn't fit what seems to be the how a cyclist should be, people seem to think that a cyclist = timid geeky type and I think some of that is problem easy target for a bully in a car that is in a hurry.


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## ianrauk (11 Feb 2014)

Andrew_P said:


> Now I am not a small built bloke and I suspect when I got up to the window I didn't fit what seems to be the how a cyclist should be, people seem to think that a cyclist = timid geeky type and I think some of that is problem easy target for a bully in a car that is in a hurry.



This... in a nutshell.


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## Jody (11 Feb 2014)

Ok, sorry if my understanding of negligent is off. I read failing to take proper care to mean just that and not that the person doesn't care.


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## GrumpyGregry (11 Feb 2014)

Andrew_P said:


> Now I am not a small built bloke and I suspect when I got up to the window I didn't fit what seems to be the how a cyclist should be, people seem to think that a cyclist = timid geeky type and I think some of that is problem easy target for a bully in a car that is in a hurry.


This. The expectation is that cyclists are skinny, bit weedy even, conflict averse, poor people. Some are. Some aren't. I'm aren't.


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## GrumpyGregry (11 Feb 2014)

2923871 said:


> What causes a caring person not to take proper care?


The illusion of attention. See "The Invisible Gorilla" for a scientific investigation and description.


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## GrumpyGregry (11 Feb 2014)

Jody said:


> Again, which one is it?


Selective quotation Jody, losing the context of each remark.

But to answer your question, it isn't a case of either/or but a case of and/both.

Your world may be binary. Mine isn't.


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## GrumpyGregry (11 Feb 2014)

Jody said:


> Straight answer is no. I have come across some arses on the road but never been unlucky enough for one to hit me. If its more than a touch then you will probably be on your arse. In which case you wouldn't be catching them back up and smashing their wing mirror off.


Depends. And catching them up on a heavily traffic-ed rural A road as it comes into a bypass-less town centre simply involves getting back on the bike and riding slowly to work.

Of all the vehicle/bike contacts I've had since '95 when I took up cycling again only two have ended up with me unable to continue my journey, one due to mechanical damage and the other physical.

WHOOPS: Liar. August last year. Make it three. But does it count. I wasn't on the bike when it was hit by the van.


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## GrumpyGregry (11 Feb 2014)

fossyant said:


> I know a while back GG you openly admitted you had some 'mojo' issues about getting back on the bike. There are better ways of dealing with idiots.
> 
> There is no need to take wing mirrors off. I never have. I've been driven at, threattened, but just note the reg and let the coppers have the details. It goes as intelligence against the vehicle. We all know that two idiots having an arguement get's nowhere ! Look at that video of the guy with the Audi posted a couple of weeks ago. Idiot driver, idiot cyclist, and idiot passenger = a mess ! I am prone to shouting loudly at folk who do stupid things, but what's the point of smacking a car - then the driver is going to be 'hissed' - you know what folk get like.
> 
> ...


A well reasoned argument. Since finding my mojo again (and doing a spot of CBT) I've found a better way tis true.

Now oddly I know for a fact that I've been passed and have in turn passed at least two of the people whose vehicles I've come to blows with. I stand out simply by being on a bike around here. No one has ever jumped out.

So, Idiot is as idiot does. One idiot is enough. Idiot strikes wise man with his car. What should wise man do; given plod apathetic about plight of the wise man?


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## GrumpyGregry (11 Feb 2014)

Jody said:


> Ok, sorry if my understanding of negligent is off. I read failing to take proper care to mean just that and not that the person doesn't care.


At the moment/for the period of time when they fail to take proper care, well, simply put, they don't care.


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## Andrew_P (11 Feb 2014)

I am not cycling this week due to a lot physical at work but I was thinking about this as I drove home and came upon a cyclist and waited for a safe pass. All my near misses that have agitated have started from behind this is now IMO totally unforgivable and I couldn't think of one possible acceptable excuse for it. Can anyone enlighten me? I think someone miss reading my speed and pulling out of a junction or across me is slightly more understandable, in fact thinking about it most of times this has happened an apologetic hand comes up and when it does it totally defuses me. I have never had a close passer who was confronted apologise or accept it was an error of judgement.

From behind they have loads of time in the decision making process, and the decision they make when they close pass me is that their progress out weighs my safety, it is this that really agitates me.


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## 400bhp (11 Feb 2014)

Andrew_P said:


> I am not cycling this week due to a lot physical at work but I was thinking about this as I drove home and came upon a cyclist and waited for a safe pass. All my near misses that have agitated have started from behind this is now IMO totally unforgivable and I couldn't think of one possible acceptable excuse for it. Can anyone enlighten me? I think someone miss reading my speed and pulling out of a junction or across me is slightly more understandable, in fact thinking about it most of times this has happened an apologetic hand comes up and when it does it totally defuses me. I have never had a close passer who was confronted apologise or accept it was an error of judgement.
> 
> From behind they have loads of time in the decision making process, and the decision they make when they close pass me is that their progress out weighs my safety, it is this that really agitates me.



In the circumstances you have presented then, no there isn't an acceptable excuse.

There's a list of reasons for sure.


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## Hip Priest (11 Feb 2014)

I wouldn't knock a wing mirror off because:

1) It'd only make me feel worse in the long run
2) I'd fear any repercussions

On the rare occasions I've had words with drivers, I've always been worried I'll come across them the next day.


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## GrumpyGregry (11 Feb 2014)

Hip Priest said:


> I wouldn't knock a wing mirror off because:
> 
> 1) It'd only make me feel worse in the long run
> 2) I'd fear any repercussions
> ...


Thanks for your honesty.


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## Jody (12 Feb 2014)

Andrew_P said:


> I think someone miss reading my speed and pulling out of a junction or across me is slightly more understandable, in fact thinking about it most of times this has happened an apologetic hand comes up and when it does it totally defuses me. I have never had a close passer who was confronted apologise or accept it was an error of judgement.
> 
> From behind they have loads of time in the decision making process, and the decision they make when they close pass me is that their progress out weighs my safety, it is this that really agitates me.



Yes the driver has plenty of time to assess the situation and pass in a reasonable manner. I feel it is down to the government and law makers to educate the few people who seem oblivious to others safety. Also, maybe revise the Highway code to also educate non cyclists about the use of primary positions for safety. It would be nice if everyone had manners but attitudes may change quicker with an advertising campaign.

I went out last night, not sure why as it was cold, raining 5 minutes into the ride and snowing on the way home. I had 1 person pull out of a junction in front of me plus one who was going to and the car over shot the junction whilst trying to stop. Both times the driver's slowed and were going to stop but then saw it was a bicycle and went for it. They either miss judged the speed which wasn't fast or thought feck it.

Anyway, I was watching out for people taking close passes (thanks to this thread). Almost all people were waiting and using an appropriate time to go round. Some people going fully over onto the other side of the road. But there were 2 people who pushed their way through when I was going past small crossing islands with bollards that are built in the middle of the road. There was barely room for them to pass and it left me with no space to maneuver if needed.

So, what should I do? Take a more primary position every 300 yards then move back. Stay in primary throughout which would p*ss people right off. Or just keep to the left without gutter riding and hope for peoples better judgment?


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## beastie (12 Feb 2014)

Jody said:


> Yes the driver has plenty of time to assess the situation and pass in a reasonable manner. I feel it is down to the government and law makers to educate the few people who seem oblivious to others safety. Also, maybe revise the Highway code to also educate non cyclists about the use of primary positions for safety. It would be nice if everyone had manners but attitudes may change quicker with an advertising campaign.
> 
> I went out last night, not sure why as it was cold, raining 5 minutes into the ride and snowing on the way home. I had 1 person pull out of a junction in front of me plus one who was going to and the car over shot the junction whilst trying to stop. Both times the driver's slowed and were going to stop but then saw it was a bicycle and went for it. They either miss judged the speed which wasn't fast or thought feck it.
> 
> ...


I would certainly take the middle of the lane through those pinch points. If there is not enough room to pass don't give a bad driver the option. I would also facilitate overtaking by moving to secondary in between.


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## Boothy (12 Feb 2014)

Last nights journey home was awful. Turning left at a T-junction, I had a car try to overtake me whilst also making the same left hand turn, only to find there was a car on the main road, coming from the left so instead of overtaking me by going into the other lane, he just squeezed me onto the pavement.

Then a few miles down the road, an insignia passed me on a 60mph road, I was doing early 20's, but he must have been doing 80mph, on a blind bend. Something came the other way so he managed to squeeze between me and the other car but I swear he must have been an inch from hitting me.

All because they couldn't wait for maybe 10 seconds until it was safe to overtake. There may have been some door mirrors hanging off if I'd caught those muppets up


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## Boothy (12 Feb 2014)

especially since I'd just changed a flat tyre in the snow so I wasn't in the best of moods anyway!


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## 50000tears (12 Feb 2014)

beastie said:


> I would certainly take the middle of the lane through those pinch points. If there is not enough room to pass don't give a bad driver the option. I would also facilitate overtaking by moving to secondary in between.



This is how I ride these situations too. Even if the drivers around you don't understand why you move into the middle of the lane every couple of hundred yards, it should cause them to make a far safer pass just in case you do it as they are overtaking! Drivers don't always have to understand your riding, but doing so correctly gives them a better opportunity to get their part right also.


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## GrumpyGregry (12 Feb 2014)

Jody said:


> Anyway, I was watching out for people taking close passes (thanks to this thread). Almost all people were waiting and using an appropriate time to go round. Some people going fully over onto the other side of the road. But there were 2 people who pushed their way through when I was going past small crossing islands with bollards that are built in the middle of the road. There was barely room for them to pass and it left me with no space to maneuver if needed.
> 
> So, what should I do? Take a more primary position every 300 yards then move back. Stay in primary throughout which would p*ss people right off. Or just keep to the left without gutter riding and hope for peoples better judgment?


Don't assume or rely on folk 'playing nice'. Assume you're in a good secondary on approach to your bollards. Lots of rear observation from a good way out as you approach the pinch point, sometimes a "Paddington Bear Hard Stare" may be needed if a complete nobber is crowding you, then, well before the pinch point, deep breath, "life saver" over the shoulder, signal if you want to, and judge it wise, and then claim primary. Own it, own the damn thing, it's yours, it belongs to you, you are now in control, so hold on to it like your life depends on it. Force chummy behind to make a choice; drive through and over you, or round the wrong side of the bollards/refuge, to get past. And trust me, one day someone will go all buffalo gals* on you. And when they do, you shake your head, and smile cos you've powned their ass and they are a nobber. Ignore the revving engines, ignore any horns and flashing head lights they are all just signs of a small manhood. And when it is safe, and only then, gracefully slide back into secondary, and nice little wave of, or thumbs up on right hand as they pass you safely. And abuse from passenger door window. Ignore it. Shake your head and smile. You powned them too.

*First buffalo gal go around the outside
'Round the outside, 'round the outside
(You know it)
Two buffalo gals go around the outside
'Round the outside, 'round the outside
Three buffalo gals go around the outside
(Baaa, baaa, ba, ba)
Four buffalo gals go around the outside
(Baaa)


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## GrumpyGregry (12 Feb 2014)

Boothy said:


> Last nights journey home was awful. Turning left at a T-junction, I had a car try to overtake me whilst also making the same left hand turn, only to find there was a car on the main road, coming from the left so instead of overtaking me by going into the other lane, he just squeezed me onto the pavement.
> 
> Then a few miles down the road, an insignia passed me on a 60mph road, I was doing early 20's, but he must have been doing 80mph, on a blind bend. Something came the other way so he managed to squeeze between me and the other car but I swear he must have been an inch from hitting me.


And I thought these things only ever happened to me and everyone else is escorted by a convoy of rainbow spewing unicorns...


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## Andrew_P (13 Feb 2014)

When I first rode I was a timid gutter dweller, occasional bump up the pavement to miss the red light, mountain bike baggy short and jacket fairly slow hybrid rider - the Car was King, and I always bowed to its superiority.

Since I joined this forum in 2010 and bought my road bike, started wearing a bit of lycra, obeying the laws of the road and started riding in these weirdly named primary and secondary that's when the agro started! Merely pointing out that people in cars think we are below them in the food chain and as long as you act as such they will leave you alone..

@User30090 My main fantasy is in a heavily congested confrontation that I am able to grab the keys and ride off laughing my head off waving the keys around like some mad man, leaving them stuck and fuming or even better chasing me. Even this came from a cycling forum..


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## Jody (13 Feb 2014)

@GrumpyGregry Mrs wondered what I was chuckling at last night reading that. Best reply yet and especially the "Paddington Bear Hard Stare". I will in future try to PWN these bitches.


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## Boothy (14 Feb 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> And I thought these things only ever happened to me and everyone else is escorted by a convoy of rainbow spewing unicorns...


 
I know we all get it regularly but these two were particularly bad and way worse than normal


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