# Is a torque wrench really necessary ?



## snazpizaz (13 Feb 2020)

Hi

I have a titanium Brompton and i'm wondering about investing in a torque wrench.
However, taking i don't (yet) do huge millage on it i was concerned that a torque wrench can become de-calibrated over time/ when not in use and using it unawares whilst in this state is likely to achieve the exact opposite of it's intended purpose and damage the bike.

What are folks views on use of a torque wrench for servicing a bike used only for light or summer month leisure cycling ? I do basic bike maintenance at home and have a good tool kit otherwise.

My torque requirements are: 

_Do by hand ?_
_Brake lever 2_
_Rear rack stay 3_
Do by hand or with a torque wrench
*Front wheel hook 3.5*
*Front carrier block 4*
Do with a torque wrench
*Chain tensioner 5 *
*Brake cable clamp 8*
_(Dynamo wheel axel 8) - don't have one_
*Handlebar catch clip 9*
*Brake caliper 10*
*Chainring bolt 10*
*Pentaclip 15-17*
*Handlebar clamp 18 max*
*3-6 speed wheel nut 18 *
Do by hand ?

Pedals 30
Crank bolt 30
*Required Torque wrench range = 3-20Nm/ with Hex 4-5-6 and pz2 *

Thanks
sp


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## Milkfloat (13 Feb 2020)

That depends on how calibrated your hand is, if you are mechanically sympathetic then you may not need one at all. A cheap torque wrench won't be highly accurate to start with, but to be honest does not need to be. Closer enough is good enough for cycling applications.


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## Mark pallister (13 Feb 2020)

If you service your own bikes I would say a torque wrench is essential 
wether or not they decalibrate over time I’ve no idea 
not using one you risk snapping bolts ,cracking the frame or cranks ,so why risk it ?


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## Smudge (13 Feb 2020)

I prefer to use feel rather than trust something to do it for me. Torque wrenches certainly can go out of calibration.
Whether you have faith in yourself to do this, only you can answer that.


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## carlosfandangus (13 Feb 2020)

I use a torque wrench, 2 of my bikes are carbon so tend to use it a lot, paid about £30 quid from CRC and always slacken off to less than 2nm when I have finished using it, don't know its accuracy compared to more expensive ones, however it is more accurate than these extra large and strong ex bricklayers hands!!


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## si_c (13 Feb 2020)

I have a torque wrench and do use it, but only because I have it.

Until I got a new bike with a carbon steerer tube I just tightened by hand, you get a feel for what's tight enough after a very short time. If something comes loose then you just do it a bit tighter next time.

I would say a torque wrench is only necessary if you have carbon parts on the bike - they are very sensitive to crushing damage so overtightening does risk permanently damaging them.

My torque wrench was £20 from Screwfix, you don't need an expensive cycle specific one.

Edit to say: it's also a ratchet wrench and has multiple socket heads so it's actually just useful full stop ignoring the torque element of it.


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## Profpointy (13 Feb 2020)

I've never used one on bikes (all my bikes have been steel not carbon) and the only car thing I've used one on is a cylinder head, though there are other car jobs where I would use one. I'm not a professional mechanic in any sphere but I do think I have reasonable mechanical sympathy. I've happily tightened both car and bike bearings by feel for instance. Apparently it's considered advisable to use a torque wrench for things screwing into carbon fibre frames but I've no personal experience of that


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## Electric_Andy (13 Feb 2020)

People use torque wrenches for years, as long as you slacken them off after use it should be fine. The inaccuracy from degredation of the wrench may be as much as the inacuracy due to a cheaper tool anyway.

I've never owned a torque wrench but have maintained cycles and motorcycles for years. Never had a problem, just look at the size of the fastener and what job it has to do, and use common sense.


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## figbat (13 Feb 2020)

I tend to do a dynamic risk assessment (as my workplace would describe it) and decide how critical the correct torque value is and what the consequences of over- or under-torqueing might be. Most times I'll do it by feel but now I have three carbon-fibre frames, one with carbon bars, I have recently picked up a 2-20 Nm torque wrench. I already had a much bigger one for automotive use. I always store them unwound and never revalidate their accuracy but so far, so good.


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## Cycleops (13 Feb 2020)

I'm guessing those figures are recommended by Brompton. They are just covering themselves against abuse by customers. As long as you are careful and have a degree of 'mechanical sympathy' you can manage without a torque wrench.


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## Andy in Germany (13 Feb 2020)

Mark pallister said:


> If you service your own bikes I would say a torque wrench is essential
> wether or not they decalibrate over time I’ve no idea
> not using one you risk snapping bolts ,cracking the frame or cranks ,so why risk it ?



Elder son reports that in a shop torque wrenches "should" be recalibrated every year at least.

His employer never has, on the other hand...


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## numbnuts (13 Feb 2020)

Milkfloat said:


> *That depends on how calibrated your hand is*, if you are mechanically sympathetic then you may not need one at all. A cheap torque wrench won't be highly accurate to start with, but to be honest does not need to be. Closer enough is good enough for cycling applications.


This ^^^


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## snazpizaz (13 Feb 2020)

Thanks that's quite a lot in favour of doing it by hand/feel.

Given the torque specifications given by Brompton and the majority in this post favouring hand/feel tightening, i think 9 of the listed bolts _could _be tightened by hand/feel. That narrows the concerning bolts down to these 6:

*Chainring bolt 10Nm *- not sure about this
*Pentaclip 15-17Nm *- holds saddle in place - could i do this by hand/feel ? - https://www.evanscycles.com/brompton-pentaclip-00102999
*Handlebar clamp 18Nm max *- this seems to me the most volatile nut/bolt on the entire bike and one where the torque needs to be correct because the securing passages/holes on the steel frame are not particularly robust. see images here: https://www.perennialcycle.com/brompton-handlebar-clamp-bolt-all-riser-stems.html
*3-6 speed wheel nut 1Nm 8 *- not sure about this
I'm unclear if people think i could do the following by hand/feel

*Pedals 30Nm* - lightweight folders - https://brilliantbikes.co.uk/47-brompton-pedals
*Crank bolt 30Nm*
My hand is 'sympathetically calibrated' to the extent that i've ridden steel generic bikes all my life. However i am not attuned or familiar with the measure of Nm, just boy-to-man basic cycle maintenance habits.

Of the TR's mentioned:
1. The £30 CRC torque wrench option mentioned seems to be a pre-set tool version.
https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/s?q=torgue+wrench&cat=direct
2. The £20 screfix non-cycle specific torque wrench option mentioned (seems like a good idea budget wise ?) indicates something along the lines of this Magnusson torque wrench:
https://www.screwfix.com/p/magnusson-torque-wrench-3-8-x-14/5848v
Not sure if cheap torque wrenches are considered advantageous or not though

Maybe i could just do with a preset 18Nm torque wrench here ?

cheers
sp


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## Rusty Nails (13 Feb 2020)

Metal bikes and components can be very forgiving of cack-handed bodgers mechanics, unlike carbon.

I suspect that many mechanics with "sympathetically calibrated" hands are not quite as accurate as they believe but just get away with it.


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## snorri (13 Feb 2020)

snazpizaz said:


> views on use of a torque wrench for servicing a bike used only for light or summer month leisure cycling ?


I was doing some "summer month leisure cycling" when my handlebars came loose, very loose in fact. A quick investigation revealed a sheared bolt which had apparently been over torqued for some time but decided to shear just as I was pushing my bike across a road 500 miles from home. Had I been pedalling the bike at the time I would have been very lucky not to have suffered injury, so no, torque wrenches are not essential but could save you a bit of serious bother.


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## Racing roadkill (13 Feb 2020)

It’s always best to use a torque wrench where possible, it reduces the risk of unnecessary damage to components, or general over tightening, or indeed under tightening, which can be just as bad.


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## Pale Rider (13 Feb 2020)

si_c said:


> it's also a ratchet wrench and has multiple socket heads so it's actually just useful full stop ignoring the torque element of it.



We had a £300 Snap-On torque wrench in the garage where I worked.

Proper bit of kit, as it should be for the money.

I was taught not to use it as a ratchet handle, not sure why.

It was only ever used for head gasket bolts.

I can't see the point of one on a steel or ally bike.

Carbon may be a different matter, but I've never laid a spanner on a carbon frame.


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## wisdom (13 Feb 2020)

si_c said:


> I have a torque wrench and do use it, but only because I have it.
> 
> Until I got a new bike with a carbon steerer tube I just tightened by hand, you get a feel for what's tight enough after a very short time. If something comes loose then you just do it a bit tighter next time.
> 
> ...


Do you have a link by any chance please


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## Levo-Lon (13 Feb 2020)

I used a torque wrench on my motorcycles ,but most of them would do well over 160mph

Never used on my cycles as I use feel, and I've never trashed a thread.

My son in law on the other hand seems to judge all torque by car wheel nut application


If you aren't confident with feel then use a torque wrench especially on critical bolts.
Also be aware that tightening a bolt with coppa slip grease ect applied will change the torque value so remember torque is for Dry threads and treads with blue loctight etc.


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## HMS_Dave (13 Feb 2020)

If you can put all your weight on it and grunt, its tight enough... For all other settings i use a torque wrench. My dad is a retired car mechanic so i have a lot of tools handed to me included some fantastic King Dick wrenches and socket sets...


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## Levo-Lon (13 Feb 2020)

HMS_Dave said:


> If you can put all your weight on it and grunt, its tight enough... For all other settings i use a torque wrench. My dad is a retired car mechanic so i have a lot of tools handed to me included some fantastic King Dick wrenches and socket sets...





Bet you don't use them on your bikes though.

Allan keys and torx keys pretty much cover it


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## rogerzilla (13 Feb 2020)

I only use one for axle nuts on SA hubs (25Nm and they can strip at 40Nm) or on fixies (30Nm suffices on plain steel dropouts; chromed ones need more).


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## Rusty Nails (13 Feb 2020)

HMS_Dave said:


> *If you can put all your weight on it and grunt, its tight enough*... For all other settings i use a torque wrench. My dad is a retired car mechanic so i have a lot of tools handed to me included some fantastic King Dick wrenches and socket sets...



I would have thought that's too tight for most nuts/bolts on a bike.


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## HMS_Dave (13 Feb 2020)

Levo-Lon said:


> Bet you don't use them on your bikes though.
> 
> Allan keys and torx keys pretty much cover it



Not very often to be fair, i use them to repair lawnmowers as a side business of mine and various other mechanical jobs. Of course, my dad gave me the tools just so he can do his mechanical work on my drive and not on his.  He thinks im daft and maybe i am


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## keithmac (13 Feb 2020)

Pale Rider said:


> We had a £300 Snap-On torque wrench in the garage where I worked.
> 
> Proper bit of kit, as it should be for the money.
> 
> ...



I've got two Snap-on Torque wrenches (I know Mitotoyo made their Vernier calipers and Micrometers so possibly had a hand in these as well).

Had one out today as it happens for a head gasket job, that's all mine get used for generally. 

I would say if you aren't used to tightening fasteners then they are a good tool to have.

As for using it as a general ratchet no chance!, mine come out of their boxes to dona job then straight back in again (unwound)..


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## snazpizaz (13 Feb 2020)

Whats the difference between a 'snap on' and a generic torque wrench ?


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## dave r (13 Feb 2020)

I have a tendency to overtighten things, I have a torque wrench for the smaller stuff.


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## Levo-Lon (14 Feb 2020)

snazpizaz said:


> Whats the difference between a 'snap on' and a generic torque wrench ?




A considerable amount of money...you get what you pay for .


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## Drago (14 Feb 2020)

Necessary - not if you've a well developed mechanical aptitude and lots of spanner ing experience.

Highly desirable- most certainly. As above though, the do require periodic recalibration, and all it takes is a fumble and to drop it on the floor and its liable to be out of whack anyway.

I do own a couple, but use them rarely.


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## Profpointy (14 Feb 2020)

snazpizaz said:


> Whats the difference between a 'snap on' and a generic torque wrench ?



It's a very expensive high quality American brand of hand tools. Probably too expensive for what they are, but they are very nice.


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## Pale Rider (14 Feb 2020)

A Snap-on torque wrench that just about covers the required range is about £300 - for a 4% accuracy one.

A 2% accuracy lower reading one would be twice that.

It's a different class of tool to a £30 home mechanic one, as it should be.

https://shop.snapon.com/product/New...atchet-Torque-Wrench-(5-25-N&bull;m)/QD2RN25A


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## mjr (14 Feb 2020)

I had two ratchet wrenches go bad (one due to my inexperience and duff instructions, one just seemingly rubbish) and then switched to beam wrenches. A Topeak ComboTorq for the small stuff is about £15. A Draper automotive socket beam wrench for the tough stuff is slightly less. As long as stored unstressed, they shouldn't go out of whack unless the properties of metal change. Accuracy is whatever you can read off the scale with Mark 1 eyeball.


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## snazpizaz (14 Feb 2020)

mjr said:


> I had two ratchet wrenches go bad (one due to my inexperience and duff instructions, one just seemingly rubbish) and then switched to beam wrenches. A Topeak ComboTorq for the small stuff is about £15. A Draper automotive socket beam wrench for the tough stuff is slightly less. As long as stored unstressed, they shouldn't go out of whack unless the properties of metal change. Accuracy is whatever you can read off the scale with Mark 1 eyeball.



Hi

Do you mean this for the Topeak :
https://www.topeak.com/global/en/products/shop-tools/639-combotorq-wrench-&-bit-set

I couldn't get an exact hit on google for a "_Draper automotive socket beam wrench_" - could you link to the type you mean ?

cheers again
sp


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## Pale Rider (14 Feb 2020)

snazpizaz said:


> Hi
> 
> Do you mean this for the Topeak :
> https://www.topeak.com/global/en/products/shop-tools/639-combotorq-wrench-&-bit-set
> ...



Those spring loaded torque wrenches aren't up to much.

You'd be better off with a thirty quid ratchet one.


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## mjr (14 Feb 2020)

snazpizaz said:


> Do you mean this for the Topeak :
> https://www.topeak.com/global/en/products/shop-tools/639-combotorq-wrench-&-bit-set
> 
> I couldn't get an exact hit on google for a "_Draper automotive socket beam wrench_" - could you link to the type you mean ?


I've been and checked and the one I have is Draper 34487, available from lots of car spares places.

That's the Topeak, yes.

There is no spring involved in either, unlike a ratchet or those preset keys you can buy, so I think Pale Rider must be confused.


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## carlosfandangus (14 Feb 2020)

This is the one I have, currently £29.99, for that money why not have one? https://www.wiggle.co.uk/lifeline-x-tools-essential-torque-wrench-set/
torque wrench


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## Pale Rider (14 Feb 2020)

mjr said:


> I've been and checked and the one I have is Draper 34487, available from lots of car spares places.
> 
> That's the Topeak, yes.
> 
> There is no spring involved in either, unlike a ratchet or those preset keys you can buy, so I think Pale Rider must be confused.



You are kidding yourself if you think that contraption will read torque to any degree of accuracy.

The OP will get away with it, but only because there is no need of a torque wrench for his application.


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## DRM (14 Feb 2020)

Pale Rider said:


> A Snap-on torque wrench that just about covers the required range is about £300 - for a 4% accuracy one.
> 
> A 2% accuracy lower reading one would be twice that.
> 
> ...


When the Snap-On man calls each week for his money, every garage looks like the Marie Celeste !


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## mjr (14 Feb 2020)

Pale Rider said:


> You are kidding yourself if you think that contraption will read torque to any degree of accuracy.
> 
> The OP will get away with it, but only because there is no need of a torque wrench for his application.


How accurate does it need to be? The small one will reliably show whether you've done something up to 3Nm or 5Nm, which is more than many cheap clicker ones will do in a year or two.

Happily, people can search for themselves for other opinions, or to check what we've written (such as whether beam wrenches contain springs...)


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## snazpizaz (14 Feb 2020)

cheers folks -
the draper - looks like this one ?
https://www.lawson-his.co.uk/draper...ldiB9u7KX6H2g9t3Y8oDZP-2Y2fB4c_RoCEUcQAvD_BwE

Topeak and Draper are available in UK - will they cover anything above 10Mn up to 18Mn ? - i'm thinking i can really do anything below 5Nm by hand/feel without a torque wrench on my bike.

*Chainring bolt 10Nm *
*Pentaclip 15-17Nm *https://www.evanscycles.com/brompton-pentaclip-00102999
*Handlebar clamp 18Nm max *- this seems to me the most volatile nut/bolt on the entire bike and one where the torque needs to be correct because the securing passages/holes on the steel frame are not particularly robust. see images here: https://www.perennialcycle.com/brompton-handlebar-clamp-bolt-all-riser-stems.html
*3-6 speed wheel nut 18Nm *
cheers
sp


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## presta (15 Feb 2020)

For the big stuff I use the Norbar torque wrench I bought for the car 40 odd years ago, it's still accurate within about 5%. For the stuff that's too small for the Norbar I just use a spring balance.


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## Pale Rider (15 Feb 2020)

snazpizaz said:


> cheers folks -
> the draper - looks like this one ?
> https://www.lawson-his.co.uk/draper...ldiB9u7KX6H2g9t3Y8oDZP-2Y2fB4c_RoCEUcQAvD_BwE
> 
> ...



That Draper tool is essentially a 1/2" drive breaker bar.

It's not suitable for a bike, being way too clunky.

Does anyone use 1/2" drive on a bike?


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## keithmac (15 Feb 2020)

Profpointy said:


> It's a very expensive high quality American brand of hand tools. Probably too expensive for what they are, but they are very nice.



If you work with them every day they are worth every penny!. I've probably spent 20k on tools but its a life investment and my son will more than likely inherit the lot.


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## dave r (15 Feb 2020)

carlosfandangus said:


> This is the one I have, currently £29.99, for that money why not have one? https://www.wiggle.co.uk/lifeline-x-tools-essential-torque-wrench-set/
> torque wrench



Thats similar to the one I've got, though I think the brand on mine is Giant Tool Shed.


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## screenman (15 Feb 2020)

To the OP, just that fact that you are asking the original question makes me think a torque wrench would be a good idea.


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## figbat (15 Feb 2020)

carlosfandangus said:


> This is the one I have, currently £29.99, for that money why not have one? https://www.wiggle.co.uk/lifeline-x-tools-essential-torque-wrench-set/
> torque wrench


This is the one I just bought. Seems a decent enough device, although early days yet.


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## mjr (15 Feb 2020)

Pale Rider said:


> That Draper tool is essentially a 1/2" drive breaker bar.
> 
> It's not suitable for a bike, being way too clunky.
> 
> Does anyone use 1/2" drive on a bike?


BBs are my most common use. Yes, it's just for a few big bits that need to be tight, but a tiny clicker won't cut it there. Many Shimano-spec BB sockets are ½" drive, as anyone who uses them should have noticed.

And my breaker bar is much longer!


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## Pale Rider (15 Feb 2020)

mjr said:


> BBs are my most common use. Yes, it's just for a few big bits that need to be tight, but a tiny clicker won't cut it there. Many Shimano-spec BB sockets are ½" drive, as anyone who uses them should have noticed.
> 
> And my breaker bar is much longer!



That springy torque wrench would be useless for removing a 'stuck' bottom bracket, a job which in any event the OP is unlikely to want to do.

Which leaves, well, no use on a bicycle other than smacking a thief on the head with it.

The thirty quid Wiggle one is a decent buy.


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## mjr (15 Feb 2020)

Pale Rider said:


> That springy torque wrench would be useless for removing a 'stuck' bottom bracket, a job which in any event the OP is unlikely to want to do.


 I use the torque wrench to fit BBs, not to remove them!



> The thirty quid Wiggle one is a decent buy.


 ...fine, if you enjoy buying or repairing torque wrenches several times while my two are still working fine.


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## Pale Rider (15 Feb 2020)

mjr said:


> I use the torque wrench to fit BBs, not to remove them!
> 
> 
> ...fine, if you enjoy buying or repairing torque wrenches several times while my two are still working fine.



Are you seriously suggesting that springy Draper breaker bar thing has any practical use on a bicycle?


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## snazpizaz (15 Feb 2020)

Hi cheers -

The torque wrenches i short listed were:
1. Icetoolz Ocarina - for portability: https://bikeshed.johnhoogstrate.nl/bicycle/workshop/icetoolz_ocarina_torque_wrench/
2. Someone recommended the Tekton because it's Nm range suits a Brompton bike:
View: https://www.amazon.co.uk/TEKTON-24320-4-Inch-Torque-2-26-22-6/dp/B00C5ZL2EG
3. At the high priced end the Topeak d-torque because appranently it's more reliable in terms of calibration issues:  View: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Topeak-D-Torq-Wrench-Multifunction-Tool/dp/B002FPGZFM

Any comments welcome.

4. I also note the recommended wiggle xtools torque above: https://www.wiggle.co.uk/lifeline-x-tools-essential-torque-wrench-set/?utm_source=affiliate window&utm_medium=affiliates&utm_campaign=Skimlinks&utm_term=Skimlinks&utm_content=Sub+Networks
Does anyone know how reliable it's calibration is generally speaking, given it's a fairly low priced item ?

Out of the 4 above which would people go for here ?

cheers again
sp


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## randynewmanscat (15 Feb 2020)

If you have not been using key and wrench tools in your job you may doubt the amount of force you apply, if so use a torque wrench. Teng make a very good 5-25nm 1/4" wrench but then you need to have 1/4" drive bits and sockets or hex bits too. A friend owns a Wera 1/4" drive and its accurate to 3.2% as tested on the calibration bench at his work. You don't need Facom or Stahlwille for bike fasteners but you will want a calibration paper.
I use these for small stuff and they are very nice but you could buy something for a lot less and have the settings you need.


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## mjr (15 Feb 2020)

Pale Rider said:


> Are you seriously suggesting that springy Draper breaker bar thing has any practical use on a bicycle?


Yes, BBs, cranks and some wheel nuts but I know some people don't torque them up and enjoy wobbly cranks or crabbing wheels.

And it's a beam torque wrench, not a breaker bar. You do yourself no favours by suggesting you can't tell tools apart.


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## DRM (16 Feb 2020)

figbat said:


> This is the one I just bought. Seems a decent enough device, although early days yet.


I've got one of those for use on my bikes, does what it's supposed to do, the other bigger ones I have are totally unsuitable for bikes as the torque settings don't go low enough, you've just got to remember to wind off the setting when you finish using it.


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## Pale Rider (17 Feb 2020)

mjr said:


> Yes, BBs, cranks and some wheel nuts but I know some people don't torque them up and enjoy wobbly cranks or crabbing wheels.
> 
> And it's a beam torque wrench, not a breaker bar. You do yourself no favours by suggesting you can't tell tools apart.



It's a tool alright, but not in the way you mean.

Do you ever see half inch breaker bars in use in a bike shop?

Not really, although my local shop has a long adjustable which they sometimes use to turn the hex on the bottom bracket tool.


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## randynewmanscat (17 Feb 2020)

Rusty Nails said:


> I suspect that many mechanics with "sympathetically calibrated" hands are not quite as accurate as they believe but just get away with it.


I think your statement is correct.
I use a friends Norbar Pro-test to calibrate torque setting tools. At his workshop I have joined other suckers in guessing a torque, he hides the display from the contestant and has them try different values. A few people is not very representative but it seems most people are short of a few Nm, especially at settings nearing 100Nm. Trying to guess 4Nm using a 1/4" drive ratchet or tommy bar of usually 150mm length is a total guess and I have seen 1Nm to 15Nm when 4Nm was asked for.
People saying they can accurately guess torque settings are doing just that, guessing. I don't have any carbon parts and my old iron bikes are not so fussy. The only components that I would be careful not to overtighten are threaded frame brazeons.
There used to be some horrendous after market brake hardware made from titanium, Ergal and Zicral (7075 family) for Campagnolo, E.T.A and OMAS if I recall correctly. A customer at Harry Hall had a bag full of such junk fitted by the mechanic who managed to strip the alloy brake nuts, he was used to assembling steel components.


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## Profpointy (17 Feb 2020)

Pale Rider said:


> Are you seriously suggesting that springy Draper breaker bar thing has any practical use on a bicycle?



Or indeed on anything else for that matter


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## carlosfandangus (17 Feb 2020)

The draper bar one I have certainly fills a draw, I still cant remember what i bought it for 15 years ago, maybe for a motorcycle?


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## keithmac (4 Mar 2020)

Had my 3/8ths Snap-on out for a job today.

I know everyone moans at the cost but this really is a pleasure to use and worth the investment (for me at least).

Locking collar so you can't knock it out of adjustment while using it.


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## Pale Rider (4 Mar 2020)

Looks just like the one we used to use, although we didn't have a grip on the handle.

Typical Snap-on, give it a wipe and it shines like a surgical instrument.


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## SkipdiverJohn (4 Mar 2020)

Pale Rider said:


> Typical Snap-on, give it a wipe and it shines like a surgical instrument.



At the eye-watering prices of Snap-on gear you've every right to expect it to be nice and shiny!. Excellent kit, but unless you are using it day in, day out for your job, and can store it securely with minimal risk of theft, Snap-on is really a bit OTT for most purposes. I have a pretty extensive set of spannering, metal bashing and woodworking tools but no Snap-on amongst them.


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## Pale Rider (4 Mar 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> At the eye-watering prices of Snap-on gear you've every right to expect it to be nice and shiny!. Excellent kit, but unless you are using it day in, day out for your job, and can store it securely with minimal risk of theft, Snap-on is really a bit OTT for most purposes. I have a pretty extensive set of spannering, metal bashing and woodworking tools but no Snap-on amongst them.



That's true, but when you need to do a job, you cannot beat the feeling of a Snap-on tool in your hand.

My screwdrivers, now 40 years old, are still the best balanced set I've ever handled.

Snap-on tools are also very robust which means you can pull strokes with them that would leave the home bodger's set in bits.


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## keithmac (4 Mar 2020)

I have a set of Snap-on ratchets and sockets at home as well (best ratchets you can buy imho).

It's not a waste of money for me, they just make the jobs a "nicer" experience (even pulling gearboxes out!).

I've always been a tinkerer (sp?) so money well spent.


----------



## Pale Rider (4 Mar 2020)

I have a 1/4" swivel head ratchet which the Snap-on man used to put 3/8" drives in - they are the same size.

Lovely tool to work quickly or in confined spaces.

We did manage to break my large Philips screwdriver.

The garage foreman borrowed it because he was having trouble removing the set screws on a Fiat door hinge.

My screwdriver fitted perfectly, and he got a couple out by hanging on the hex on the shank with a (Snap-on) spanner.

As he was doing the last one there was a loud crack.

The head of the screwdriver had snapped like a carrot.

No worries, the Snap-on man replaced it, although he was curious to know how we'd managed to break it.

Here's a snap of the ratchet, which is also 40 years old.


----------



## keithmac (4 Mar 2020)

I recently bought a 3/8ths thin ratchet and socket set, both ratchet and sockets are 1/2 "normal" height plus fine tooth ratchet gearing.

It's been a godsend already on the motorcycles, will take a pic tomorrow if I remember.


----------



## Pale Rider (4 Mar 2020)

keithmac said:


> I recently bought a 3/8ths thin ratchet and socket set, both ratchet and sockets are 1/2 "normal" height plus fine tooth ratchet gearing.
> 
> It's been a godsend already on the motorcycles, will take a pic tomorrow if I remember.



Oo, I shall look forward to that, which is slightly sad, but true.

Another thing about my swivel head ratchet is the hinge still has the perfect amount of stiction - easy to move, but enough to stay in place.

Unlike the home mechanics' copies which flop about from new, let alone four decades later.


----------



## keithmac (4 Mar 2020)

Pale Rider said:


> Oo, I shall look forward to that, which is slightly sad, but true.
> 
> Another thing about my swivel head ratchet is the hinge still has the perfect amount of stiction - easy to move, but enough to stay in place.
> 
> Unlike the home mechanics' copies which flop about from new, let alone four decades later.



That is a good trick putting 3/8ths gear into a 1/4 housing, will have to remember that!. 

I bought a stubby 1/4 drive ratchet few months back, fine pitch as well. Works great when you have very limited movement of the handle.


----------



## Pale Rider (4 Mar 2020)

keithmac said:


> That is a good trick putting 3/8ths gear into a 1/4 housing, will have to remember that!.
> 
> I bought a stubby 1/4 drive ratchet few months back, fine pitch as well. Works great when you have very limited movement of the handle.



Yes, the Snap-on man could do it in a couple of minutes in the back of the van.

I've never pulled one to bits, but it looks like the drive mechanism is only held in by two tiny screws on the back of the ratchet.

For occasional heavy duty work I have a longish 1/2" drive breaker bar, which we used to call a matador.

Mine is the black impact finish version, which was always a bit cheaper than chrome.

I lent it to a neighbour who was struggling to remove the studs in a Triumph Stag block - they were notorious for rusting in as you probably know.

Fair play to the guy, he told me he would be giving it some grunt and didn't want to risk breaking my tool.

I assured him all would be well.

He managed to wrench out several studs, and also twisted a couple off.

There was then a large crack - his stud removal tool shattered under the load he was applying.

So that was Snap-on 2, Triumph Stag 0.


----------



## keithmac (4 Mar 2020)

We had to buy a 3/4 breaker bar for removing Ducati/ MV Augusta wheel nuts. They are torqued to 240nm but if there's any corrosion behind then it's nigh on impossible to get them off.

Have had to cut them off before, without damaging the Magnesium wheel (£££!) or the hollow shaft.


----------



## Pale Rider (4 Mar 2020)

Torque is not my thing, but 240nm is some grunt.

I suppose that's done partly because the wheel only has one fixing to rely on.

I used my breaker bar for car wheels when doing breakdowns.

Managed to twist off a couple of studs over the years - having first warned the owner it might happen.

It wasn't a problem because all they wanted was the wheel changed so they could crack on.

I don't think running with three studs is much of a risk, although we did advise the customer to take it steady.

We managed to lose a wheel when road testing a Datsun Bluebird.

Someone had spun the nuts on but forgotten to tighten them.

The car came to a halt on the disc and there was no damage other than some scuffing.

We were quite impressed.


----------



## Drago (4 Mar 2020)

keithmac said:


> We had to buy a 3/4 breaker bar for removing Ducati/ MV Augusta wheel nuts. They are torqued to 240nm but if there's any corrosion behind then it's nigh on impossible to get them off.
> 
> Have had to cut them off before, without damaging the Magnesium wheel (£££!) or the hollow shaft.
> 
> View attachment 507055


Oh my days, that's riskier than defusing a bomb!


----------



## keithmac (4 Mar 2020)

Drago said:


> Oh my days, that's riskier than defusing a bomb!



Angle grinder with a 0.5mm 4 1/2 inch cutting disk on it, not a nice job!.


----------



## keithmac (5 Mar 2020)

@Pale Rider here you go!.
















Bought this as well, absolute bargain at £70! (batteries are £150 alone), 3/8ths Impact Gun.

I use mine daily and still good as new after 7odd years so couldn't resist at that price, my original 14.4v was £450iirc (for the use it's had that was also a bargain imho).


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## Pale Rider (5 Mar 2020)

Hard core hand tool porn - a simple like is insufficient.

I'm curious about the handle end of the small ratchet - is that a flat screwdriver bit or mini pry bar?

Same head size as mine, so a 3/8" drive would slot straight in.

Are the sockets Snap-on?

The few I have have a couple of black bands on them and are swagged a little, depending on the size.

I'm not surprised you use the impact gun all the time.

Saving a few seconds on a fixing doesn't sound a lot, and it isn't if you are only doing one, but it soon mounts up during a working day.

Your remark about its longevity sums up Snap-on.

The gun has had hard workshop use for years and shows no sign of failing.

A home bodger's one wouldn't last six months in that environment.


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## keithmac (5 Mar 2020)

The kit is Snap-on ratchet and sockets, 3/8ths so a normal socket would fit, the drive is shallower though.

The handle is flat, straight and just rounded at the bottom. 

My 14.4v battery gun has done Sterling service so far and still going strong.

Some scooters have 10+ bolts holding the transmission cases on and this just winds them out in seconds, same with crankcases.

It's very controllable with the trigger as well so you can wind bolts back in then just a final nudge with a ratchet to finish.

Saves a great amount of time.

I bet it's 10 years old you know, will have to see if I can find out!.


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## Pale Rider (5 Mar 2020)

Cheers, here's my response.

At the top is my impact finish half inch matador and sockets, 1/2" drive and six sided to tackle the really tough stuff.

The two little sockets are interesting.

One is a spinner, the knurled wheel gives you just enough torque to spin up a nut that won't quite spin by hand.

The other socket is a wobble end, it gives flexibility to any socket you attach to it.

Not as much as a universal joint, but often enough to get to where a regular socket would not.

Both the pliers are excellent tools, in particular the red handled ones with which I've twisted stuff that no plier ought to be able to

In the middle of the pic is my other 1/4" drive mini ratchet converted to 3/8".

The yellow handled tool is a hex driver for hose clips - again a good time saver if you are doing a few.

Yellow handles means budget in Snap-on speak.

Lastly is my Snap-on scraper, proper blade for preparing gasket faces.


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## keithmac (5 Mar 2020)

All good tools there, the "spinner" looks interesting!.

Plenty of times I've been tightening bolts up that you can't even see, just do it by feel.

Had a set of Snap-on Lineman's pliers for years, probably one of the 1st tools I bought, they are a beasty set of pliers.


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## Pale Rider (5 Mar 2020)

The Spinner used to be almost permanently attached to my ratchet so it was always to hand.

I'd never heard those pliers called Lineman's.

On the website they come up as heavy duty which is certainly correct.

The other tool I have which I couldn't put my hand on is a screw starter.

It's shaped like a pencil, and has a grip for a Philips screw one end and a flat screw the other.

Handy for aiming a screw in confined places.

Its grip on the screw clicks off after a few turns.

https://shop.snapon.com/categories/Lineman's-Heavy-Duty/675114


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## keithmac (5 Mar 2020)

I've got a little "magnetiser", you put the screwdriver tip through it a few times and it turns the tip magnetic, that coupled with a 2 foot long number two philips screwdriver has had a lot of use!.

Those look like mine, very heavy will cut through anything and grip very well (ideal for rounded Philips screws etc!).


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## Pale Rider (5 Mar 2020)

My pliers of that type are not Snap-on.

Not quite a waste of space, but they will hardly cut anything.

We used to have a couple of long shank screwdrivers as part of the workshop kit.

Very handy for hose clips on bottom hoses.


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## keithmac (5 Mar 2020)

The were called Linemans because Linemen used to use them up the telegraph poles etc from what I've been told.

You can cut with them, grip and use as a small hammer if needs must.


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## Pale Rider (5 Mar 2020)

keithmac said:


> The were called Linemans because Linemen used to use them up the telegraph poles etc from what I've been told.
> 
> You can cut with them, grip and use as a small hammer if needs must.



That reminded me, I've used my slip joint pliers to whack things a few times.

I seem to recall a couple of my screwdrivers were lightly magnetised.

Not sure if they were designed that way or some how became magnetised knocking around the toolbox.

And that reminds me of my toolbox.

It's a Snap-on cantilever one which one of the mechanics gave me after he'd finished with it.

Unfortunately he ran it over, but as he was a panel beater he put it straight and gave it a respray.

Needless to say, none of the cantilever hinges broke when it was flattened, and it's still going strong despite being about 50 years old.


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## keithmac (5 Mar 2020)

That's mine in background, a quick wipe over and it's good as new! (16 years old).


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## Pale Rider (5 Mar 2020)

Very smart.

To function well they need to be well made because they carry so much weight.

I got my cantilever one when the mechanic bought his first chest, which was a lot smaller than yours.

It was a very similar to the top chest in your pic, although in Snap-on red.

He bought a wheeled base chest, again like yours, a little while later.

We were very impressed with his smaller one because it was the first we'd seen.


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## keithmac (5 Mar 2020)

Yeh I had a red top section/ chest first, then a red roll cab to go under it.

They offered me a cracking deal on that one in the picture with my two as px so I went for it.

That one has roller bearing drawers, "lock 'n' roll" draw slides (but I've took those off), lid lifters on top section.

Use it every day so another investment!.


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## Pale Rider (5 Mar 2020)

Aye, roll cab, that's the term I was looking for.

As you say, the drawers have the type of quality you might see in an operating theatre.

The mechanics where I worked were a little concerned about theft.

When you get to that size of tool chest there's little alternative but to leave it permanently at work.


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## keithmac (5 Mar 2020)

Yeh what can you do though?, it's locked to ground anchors and fully insured.

It would be the loss of tools owned and used over 20 years that would be the kick in the nuts really!.


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## Pale Rider (5 Mar 2020)

Absolutely, there is a strong attachment to your tools when you use them for a living.

Also I bet you couldn't get direct replacements for all of them even if you had a big insurance payout to spend.

That, and you'd be bound to forget to buy some of the little used ones that are crucial when you need them.

I reckon it would probably take six months to a year to get straight again.


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## keithmac (6 Mar 2020)

Yeh you're probably right, there's tools in there I've made for jobs (screwdrivers ground for connector pin removal, modified filter tools etc).

Still hopefully it'll never happen (fingers crossed!).


----------



## randynewmanscat (6 Mar 2020)

I detect the onset of a wall peeing contest. 
The Beta cabinets stay in the house because they are full of metrology equipment as I don't heat my workshop in the winter. I use Lista in the workshop, they are the boss of all cabinets. 
I have some more torque control gear but it's sat in storage back in blight.


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## Profpointy (6 Mar 2020)

Pale Rider said:


> Looks just like the one we used to use, although we didn't have a grip on the handle.
> 
> Typical Snap-on, give it a wipe and it shines like a surgical instrument.



A mate of mine used to work as a motor mechanic and he commented that the shiny chrome surfaces were slippery with greasy hands. His then favourite were Britool. That said modern Britool is a pale shadow of the older ones as it's now Facom's cheap and nasty brand. I always liked the older Britool stuff and have quite a lot and it seems great - but I'm merely a gentleman-dabbler.
I have some snap-on too which I've picked up from time to time on fleabay.


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## Pale Rider (6 Mar 2020)

randynewmanscat said:


> I detect the onset of a wall peeing contest.
> The Beta cabinets stay in the house because they are full of metrology equipment as I don't heat my workshop in the winter. I use Lista in the workshop, they are the boss of all cabinets.
> I have some more torque control gear but it's sat in storage back in blight.
> View attachment 507262
> ...



Those Beta cabinets look smart.

I like the idea of the top one being not quite as deep as the roll cab.

The ledge it creates is dead handy when you are changing a few tools on a job.



Profpointy said:


> A mate of mine used to work as a motor mechanic and he commented that the shiny chrome surfaces were slippery with greasy hands. His then favourite were Britool. That said modern Britool is a pale shadow of the older ones as it's now Facom's cheap and nasty brand. I always liked the older Britool stuff and have quite a lot and it seems great - but I'm merely a gentleman-dabbler.
> I have some snap-on too which I've picked up from time to time on fleabay.



I have some older Britool because I couldn't afford all the spanners I wanted in Snap-on.

Acceptable quality for my light workshop use at the time, although they still felt and looked a bit clunky compared to Snap-on, particularly the spanners.

I've not had a problem with any chrome tool slipping, although I always had an industrial wipe to hand.

Those things could be hazardous.

They were used in different trades and laundered before being delivered to us in a plastic sack.

Occasionally I would grab one out of the sack that had a piece of swarf stuck to it.

A little blood and a lot of swearing followed.


----------



## randynewmanscat (6 Mar 2020)

Pale Rider said:


> I like the idea of the top one being not quite as deep as the roll cab.
> 
> The ledge it creates is dead handy when you are changing a few tools on a job.


Super well spotted! Yes it is very handy when changing out bits or wotnot. They originally served as tool cabinets and I was going to fit a piece of Beech worktop into the well on the top and thought better of it, no ledge.


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## randynewmanscat (6 Mar 2020)

Buck & Hickmans Roebuck range of tools is a mixed bag of value. Ebay can be a good source of new overstock or auction clearance stuff, the socketry, spannering and driver tools are generally Spanish made, usually by Palmera. Avoid drillbits from them. I have a roll of wrenches from the 70's by them and still use them, they are well polished, accurate in jaw width and very durable.


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## randynewmanscat (6 Mar 2020)

Pale Rider said:


> I've not had a problem with any chrome tool slipping, although I always had an industrial wipe to hand.


You point out the difference between patient workshop practice and bodge it and scarper.


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## Pale Rider (6 Mar 2020)

randynewmanscat said:


> Super well spotted! Yes it is very handy when changing out bits or wotnot.



It's small things like that which can make all the difference during a working day.

I suppose it's the professional mechanic's equivalent of marginal gains.



randynewmanscat said:


> You point out the difference between patient workshop practice and bodge it and scarper.



I was lucky to be taught how to operate in a garage by time served mechanics.

It is all these small things - like your tool ledge - that differentiate the professional from the home bodger.

Going back to budget tools, I have some Kamasa spanners and a small socket set.

Decent, but once again not as nice to use as Snap-on.


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## randynewmanscat (6 Mar 2020)

Pale Rider said:


> Going back to budget tools, I have some Kamasa spanners and a small socket set.


I still own a Kamasa spanner roll from 1974 I think, chrome has not flaked at all and they fit fasteners very well, first spanners I bought. Back then they probably cost me less than a third of the main marques, I would still use them if I needed to.


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## keithmac (6 Mar 2020)

Screwdrivers, flexi 1/4 drive etc.

Top's a bombsite at the moment!.


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## Pale Rider (6 Mar 2020)

I also like a good selection of screwdrivers, not that I have as many as you.

Are the red handled Snap-on ones still Pozidriv?


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## keithmac (6 Mar 2020)

Just the ones in the Blue bit box are Pozi, never see them on motorbikes.

Only really use Pozi at home where most wood screws tend to be Pozi drive for some reason.


----------



## Pale Rider (6 Mar 2020)

If I recall, Pozi was a recent innovation when the Snap-on man first offered the red handled screwdrivers to us in the mid 1970s.

Quite a few of us bought one, but as you say I don't think there was many Pozi fixings in automotive, although Philips was common.

I suppose now there are a lot of JIS (Japanese Industrial Standard) cross heads.


----------



## Profpointy (6 Mar 2020)

randynewmanscat said:


> I still own a Kamasa spanner roll from 1974 I think, chrome has not flaked at all and they fit fasteners very well, first spanners I bought. Back then they probably cost me less than a third of the main marques, I would still use them if I needed to.



My first socket set was a comprehensive 42 piece Kamasa set in its green tin box: mm, AF and whitworth along with various handles and what not. It was really really good despite it being the cheapest set I could find. Nothing broke and I used it quite a lot, albeit only on my own car. In due course the set was nicked out of my car so I bought an identical Kamasa set to replace it - but the replacement was shyte and the handles bent, the sockets dented and the ratchet broke. I guess they just buy generic items from the far east rather than proper in house build or even quality control for bought in. I replaced the ratchet with a brand new expensive Britool one and stuck with them for a decade or two, until they too went South. Latterly I've mostly gone for Facom and some snap-on where I've picked em up from ebay.


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## Profpointy (7 Mar 2020)

Pale Rider said:


> If I recall, Pozi was a recent innovation when the Snap-on man first offered the red handled screwdrivers to us in the mid 1970s.
> 
> Quite a few of us bought one, but as you say I don't think there was many Pozi fixings in automotive, although Philips was common.
> 
> I suppose now there are a lot of JIS (Japanese Industrial Standard) cross heads.



I've only recently ( ie a few years ago) I learnt of the existence of JIS fittings after decades of cursing poorly fitting "Philips" screws and drivers. Bought a set once I realised, and probably need a miniature set for cameras and such too.


----------



## Pale Rider (7 Mar 2020)

Another Japanese innovation is reduced head bolts.

The hex head is smaller than the bolt size suggests it should be.

http://www.stainlessautomotivefastenings.co.uk/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=21


----------



## Adam4868 (9 Mar 2020)

keithmac said:


> Yeh what can you do though?, it's locked to ground anchors and fully insured.
> 
> It would be the loss of tools owned and used over 20 years that would be the kick in the nuts really!.


I made this for a friend who's a mechanic,bolts both ends.


----------



## Pale Rider (9 Mar 2020)

Neat job.

I take it there's no room to knock the cabinet sideways.


----------



## Adam4868 (9 Mar 2020)

Pale Rider said:


> Neat job.
> 
> I take it there's no room to knock the cabinet sideways.


Yes it's tight against a pillar.Im sure you could still take it,but it's take a bit more time and brute force.


----------



## Pale Rider (9 Mar 2020)

Adam4868 said:


> Yes it's tight against a pillar.Im sure you could still take it,but it's take a bit more time and brute force.



Humungously heavy too, so you'd need a JCB or forklift to shift it.


----------



## confusedcyclist (9 Mar 2020)

I keep turning until I get the satisfying crunch, then back out a bit, you know, just to be safe.


----------



## keithmac (9 Mar 2020)

Adam4868 said:


> I made this for a friend who's a mechanic,bolts both ends.
> View attachment 507717



Looks great!, anything to slow them down..

Bosses friend had his garage "done over" a few weeks back, they even killed his yard dog (Alsatian). 

Scum really.


----------



## Adam4868 (9 Mar 2020)

keithmac said:


> Looks great!, anything to slow them down..
> 
> Bosses friend had his garage "done over" a few weeks back, they even killed his yard dog (Alsatian).
> 
> Scum really.


Big money in second hand tools etc unfortunately ! He even backs a old vehicle across the doors with flat tyres.Hate to think of a lifetimes collection of tools going


----------



## Pale Rider (12 Mar 2020)

The garage I worked at had a Snap-on etching tool that worked off a car battery.

We all etched our initials onto our tools.

Not so much against theft, but more to avoid any 'confusion' with other mechanics over tool ownership.

One of these:

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/vintage-snap-mt330-etching-pencil-543377120


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## Adam4868 (12 Mar 2020)

Pale Rider said:


> The garage I worked at had a Snap-on etching tool that worked off a car battery.
> 
> We all etched our initials onto our tools.
> 
> ...


We used to use a arc welder for initials on our tools.


----------



## Pale Rider (12 Mar 2020)

Adam4868 said:


> We used to use a arc welder for initials on our tools.



I never liked those things - I was scared of electrocuting myself.

Which tells you I don't understand arc welding.

A gas torch was my welding limit, and I was never much good with one of those.


----------



## Adam4868 (12 Mar 2020)

Pale Rider said:


> I never liked those things - I was scared of electrocuting myself.
> 
> Which tells you I don't understand arc welding.
> 
> A gas torch was my welding limit, and I was never much good with one of those.


Can't tell you the amount of times as apprentice where someone would give me a shock with one.Usually by touching the metal bench id be working.on !


----------



## Pale Rider (12 Mar 2020)

I did use the spot welder a few times for attaching things such as car wings.

At the time, an innovation was continuous wire welding - you could see the little wire tag end in the weld.

From memory, we didn't have one of those machines.

Probably too expensive.


----------



## Adam4868 (12 Mar 2020)

Many moons ago I did a appenteship in sheetmetal/welding.So it was mostly arc,oxy accet and Tig.Never used mig then,but I've had a few goes since in garages.Im well out of that game now,we used to make.some great bespoke stuff in stainless and always enjoyed Tig welding.


----------



## Pale Rider (12 Mar 2020)

I didn't know that mig welding is another name for continuous wire welding.

I had the impression that mig was more used by car manufacturers than garages.

The plain welding wire used in oxy acetylene had lots of other uses.

I've bodged a few exhausts with it on motorway breakdowns, and I made a bowl oil filter seal removing tool from the thicker gauge version.

Always kept a few lengths in the toolbox.


----------



## Adam4868 (12 Mar 2020)

Pale Rider said:


> I didn't know that mig welding is another name for continuous wire welding.
> 
> I had the impression that mig was more used by car manufacturers than garages.
> 
> ...


Oh I don't know,was presuming you meant mig.Most car garages,body shop will use mig nowadays.Its wire fed on a spool.Its easy for thin metals like car repair and tack welding.


----------



## keithmac (12 Mar 2020)

I welded a Ford Transit Minibus over Christmas.

Used gasless mig wire for first time and was very happy with the results (so was MOT tester!).

Gas mig welding outside is a pain, and gas is expensive if you don't use it all that often (bottle rental was £80 a year iirc).

Rebuilt both front inner wings, rear chassis rail, rear sill and rear inner arches. It was pretty bad when you started poking at it!.

Made repair panels out of 2mm sheet steel, managed to buy a sill.


----------



## Adam4868 (13 Mar 2020)

keithmac said:


> I welded a Ford Transit Minibus over Christmas.
> 
> Used gasless mig wire for first time and was very happy with the results (so was MOT tester!).
> 
> ...


Not bad for a beginner...bit of practice and underseal and it'll look like a professional did it 😁


----------



## Pale Rider (13 Mar 2020)

Adam4868 said:


> underseal and it'll look like a professional did it



We had a mixed view of underseal.

We did use it, but on the other hand it was also used by home bodgers to cover their poor work.

In order not to mess up the paint gun, we had underseal which came in its own spray container.

Perhaps it didn't like being pressurised by a garage compressor, but one or two of the containers exploded in use, probably when the nozzle blocked.

That created a proper mess.


----------



## Adam4868 (13 Mar 2020)

Pale Rider said:


> We had a mixed view of underseal.
> 
> We did use it, but on the other hand it was also used by home bodgers to cover their poor work.
> 
> ...


Prefer a bit of old engine oil painted on,were poor up here...


----------



## Pale Rider (13 Mar 2020)

Adam4868 said:


> Prefer a bit of old engine oil painted on,were poor up here...



An underbody spray with Redex was often part of a service.

Rust was much more of a concern in the 70s than it is today, and some owners asked us to do it.


----------



## Adam4868 (13 Mar 2020)

Pale Rider said:


> An underbody spray with Redex was often part of a service.
> 
> Rust was much more of a concern in the 70s than it is today, and some owners asked us to do it.


Im no mechanic but have worked in plenty of garages,big difference now I guess is loads of plastic underneath to cover arches and sills etc.Does it keep most of the sh1t of the metal...maybe not as much to corrode.


----------



## Smudge (13 Mar 2020)

Adam4868 said:


> Im no mechanic but have worked in plenty of garages,big difference now I guess is loads of plastic underneath to cover arches and sills etc.Does it keep most of the sh1t of the metal...maybe not as much to corrode.



They have anti corrosion treatment now on car chassis now and have had for some time. They dont rust as fast underneath like they used to.
Most cars nowadays have at least 10 yr corrosion warranty.


----------



## Pale Rider (13 Mar 2020)

Adam4868 said:


> Im no mechanic but have worked in plenty of garages,big difference now I guess is loads of plastic underneath to cover arches and sills etc.Does it keep most of the sh1t of the metal...maybe not as much to corrode.



That, and the widespread adoption of unitary construction plays a part.

The load bearing parts are painted or hidden from road spray, as opposed to when cars had a separate chassis which was exposed underneath.

Even the doors and tailgate contribute to the structural integrity of a unitary bodied car.

As was demonstrated when we lifted a Lancia on a wheel free ramp with two of the doors open.

They would not shut when we put the car back on the ground.

They did shut after we allowed the car to creak back into shape for a few minutes.

Part of that was due to the dodgy Italian build quality of the time, but it does show how the whole body of a unitary car contributes to its strength.


----------



## keithmac (13 Mar 2020)

Adam4868 said:


> Not bad for a beginner...bit of practice and underseal and it'll look like a professional did it 😁



It got seam sealed and painted.

To be fair anything was better than a hole through both inner wings!.

I put a metal wire liner in half way through the job and it behaved better after that, gasless wire was binding in nylon liner half way through other side.

I've got my Mk2 Golf to do next!.


----------



## Adam4868 (13 Mar 2020)

keithmac said:


> It got seam sealed and painted.
> 
> To be fair anything was better than a hole through both inner wings!.
> 
> ...


Without boring everyone half to death with tales of welding.Ive never tried gasless mig,I only own a small arc so use a mates garage who has a mig welder with bottle.Sure it's fine.Im presuming the wire has some sort of coating on to do away with the gas ? Anyway good enough for sheetmetal welding on cars it's not like it's structural.As for your golf I'd go down the newspaper and filler route...cheaper !


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## keithmac (13 Mar 2020)

I've done normal gas mig, neater weld and can use finer wire. Gas shielding outside is a pain though!.

The gasless has flux in the middle, not bad to use when you get the hang of it but does spatter a bit.

Gaseless is £20 a reel, normal wire is £6 BUT no bottle rental or refill charge.

I think with a bit more practice and some cleaning up after you should be to get good results on panel work (hopefully!).


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## Adam4868 (13 Mar 2020)

keithmac said:


> I've done normal gas mig, neater weld and can use finer wire. Gas shielding outside is a pain though!.
> 
> The gasless has flux in the middle, not bad to use when you get the hang of it but does spatter a bit.
> 
> ...


The money you save will pay for all those sanding discs !


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## Pale Rider (14 Mar 2020)

Adam4868 said:


> Anyway good enough for sheetmetal welding on cars it's not like it's structural.



Strictly, the sheet metal on any car which doesn't have an old fashioned separate chassis is structural.

Although because the load is spread over the whole vehicle it's small on an individual part.

In any case, a skilfully welded panel will be just as strong, if not stronger, than the original.


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## Adam4868 (14 Mar 2020)

Pale Rider said:


> Strictly, the sheet metal on any car which doesn't have an old fashioned separate chassis is structural.
> 
> Although because the load is spread over the whole vehicle it's small on an individual part.
> 
> In any case, a skilfully welded panel will be just as strong, if not stronger, than the original.


I know what you mean,depends where it is I guess...but once welded it could allways be a weak point if not carefull.


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## Pale Rider (14 Mar 2020)

Adam4868 said:


> I know what you mean,depends where it is I guess...but once welded it could allways be a weak point if not carefull.



True, but no worries if the welder knows what they are doing, which you and Keith obviously do.


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## Adam4868 (14 Mar 2020)

Pale Rider said:


> True, but no worries if the welder knows what they are doing, which you and Keith obviously do.


Keith might but keep me out of it ! Tetrosyl is my friend.


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## Pale Rider (14 Mar 2020)

Adam4868 said:


> Keith might but keep me out of it ! Tetrosyl is my friend.



I dunno, you might not have the specific car knowledge, but you certainly have the welding and metalwork skills.

Your work on the toolbox tether shows that.

A simple job for you, but genuinely admirable to a welding numpty like me.


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