# Train Prices



## tyreon (9 Nov 2017)

Could someone tell me why a single train ticket of 25 miles costs all but 10p shy of a day return ticket? I guess there's logic in it.

I rather fancy cycling one way with my wife to return by train. Howsoever, I feel shortchanged at (almost) paying the price of a return ticket.

On a longer train trip I can by an open return that lasts a month. Fair do. I could cycle one way,return by train. On another day,go by train return by bike. But less than 25/30 miles the return and single fares make single fares the price of returns...or thereabouts. Why?


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## screenman (9 Nov 2017)

I imagine because they can.


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## vickster (9 Nov 2017)

It’s always been thus if travelling off peak. Go one way at a more expensive time (if you can take bike)...or cycle both ways and do the half imperial century


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## TheDoctor (9 Nov 2017)

Because you get off-peak returns, but not off peak singles.
You can find ways of making returns work in your favour.
Last weekend, I fancied a ride around Ashwell and to the old WW2 Steeple Morden airfield, which has a rather good memorial wall.
What I actually did was to get a return ticket to Royston, got off early at Ashwell and Morden, rode a roundabout route to Royston, got the train to Letchworth and then rode home from there. I did all the nice bits, but avoided the A505 and the tedious slog between Baldock and Ashwell, which is repetitively hilly. And saved a fair amount over buying the two singles for the trips I actually did.


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## Littgull (9 Nov 2017)

tyreon said:


> Could someone tell me why a single train ticket of 25 miles costs all but 10p shy of a day return ticket? I guess there's logic in it.
> 
> I rather fancy cycling one way with my wife to return by train. Howsoever, I feel shortchanged at (almost) paying the price of a return ticket.
> 
> On a longer train trip I can by an open return that lasts a month. Fair do. I could cycle one way,return by train. On another day,go by train return by bike. But less than 25/30 miles the return and single fares make single fares the price of returns...or thereabouts. Why?



I travel regularly on trains because I got rid of my car last January and wont be getting another one. I also ride my bike a lot to various places. I too have wondered why many single fares are virtually the same price as return tickets. I believe the answer lies in the fact that the rail companies operate with minimal resources and there are insufficient staff to check ticket purchase by customers on both legs of a journey. But in my experience you usually get asked for your ticket on one leg of a journey. So, as many people make return journeys the rail companies figure that by making the cost of single tickets virtually the same as return fares between stations and routes where they are under resourced they will maximise their income without staffing the trains and stations properly.

There are some very strange situations regarding train fares and tickets. For example, if you obtain a special price advanced ticket for a particular train e.g. Leeds to Kings Cross, London where the price is cheaper than the normal ticket price for that route and you get off at an earlier station than Kings Cross e.g Stevenage (because you have relatives there) as you exit the Station you will be requested to pay the difference between the special and normal Leeds to Kings Cross fare. If you refuse, you will be arrested for fraud! Not a lot of people will be aware of that.


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## Flying Dodo (9 Nov 2017)

Although of course if you had planned ahead and bought a single for (say) a Hitchin to Stevenage train, and put that ticket through the barrier, then you wouldn't have a problem.


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## TheDoctor (9 Nov 2017)

Good planning!


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## Ming the Merciless (9 Nov 2017)

Get a return valid for a month. Do the riding one way bits in that month. So ride oneway this time with your wife then within the month reverse it using the other half of the ticket,


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## TheDoctor (9 Nov 2017)

You can only get a return valid for a month for longer journeys, not shorter ones. 
The OP made that point.


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## ianrauk (9 Nov 2017)

YukonBoy said:


> Get a return valid for a month. Do the riding one way bits in that month. So ride oneway this time with your wife then within the month reverse it using the other half of the ticket,


Blimey that's a great idea. Noted for future use.


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## Ming the Merciless (9 Nov 2017)

TheDoctor said:


> You can only get a return valid for a month for longer journeys, not shorter ones.
> The OP made that point.



Just tried it for a 30 mile train journey and it was fine.


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## si_c (9 Nov 2017)

When the government decided to franchise the railways, they made the poor choice of regulating the price of return tickets and not singles. This has all sorts of effects like making triangular tickets an unreasonable option.

Most regulators control singles, which makes more sense.


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## classic33 (9 Nov 2017)

Littgull said:


> I travel regularly on trains because I got rid of my car last January and wont be getting another one. I also ride my bike a lot to various places. I too have wondered why many single fares are virtually the same price as return tickets. I believe the answer lies in the fact that the rail companies operate with minimal resources and there are insufficient staff to check ticket purchase by customers on both legs of a journey. But in my experience you usually get asked for your ticket on one leg of a journey. So, as many people make return journeys the rail companies figure that by making the cost of single tickets virtually the same as return fares between stations and routes where they are under resourced they will maximise their income without staffing the trains and stations properly.
> 
> There are some very strange situations regarding train fares and tickets. For example, if you obtain a special price advanced ticket for a particular train e.g. Leeds to Kings Cross, London where the price is cheaper than the normal ticket price for that route and you get off at an earlier station than Kings Cross e.g Stevenage (because you have relatives there) as you exit the Station you will be requested to pay the difference between the special and normal Leeds to Kings Cross fare. If you refuse, you will be arrested for fraud! Not a lot of people will be aware of that.


Nothing to stop you breaking the journey though.


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## Littgull (9 Nov 2017)

classic33 said:


> Nothing to stop you breaking the journey though.


 I think there maybe. I'm not certain but I think the advanced ticket (special price) tickets only entitle the passenger to that price if they take that particular timed train and do not board or alight at any station other than the start and end station on the ticket. So if for example you got off at an earlier station the ticket inspector at the station exit would ask you to pay the extra. even if you tried a ruse, for example, and said you have had a sudden emergency and had to alight early. For stations with automatic ticket barriers, I think the ticket when fed though would be rejected and not open the barrier so that would generate a ticket inspector to appear.


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## Ming the Merciless (9 Nov 2017)

Ticket barriers are far from everywhere. So provided it is a small station in the country you are starting your ride from it should not be a problem.


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## Littgull (9 Nov 2017)

YukonBoy said:


> Ticket barriers are far from everywhere. So provided it is a small station in the country you are starting your ride from it should not be a problem.


Yes, that's true. But the majority of travellers will be boarding or alighting at bigger town or city stations.


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## Ming the Merciless (9 Nov 2017)

Littgull said:


> Yes, that's true. But the majority of travellers will be boarding or alighting at bigger town or city stations.



What the majority do is not of importance as this thread is in relation to a bike ride back home. Starting from a quiet station in the countryside would surely be the preference.


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## classic33 (9 Nov 2017)

YukonBoy said:


> What the majority do is not of importance as this thread is in relation to a bike ride back home. Starting from a quiet station in the countryside would surely be the preference.


Only if the train actually stops there, otherwise you stay on until the end.


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## Ming the Merciless (9 Nov 2017)

classic33 said:


> Only if the train actually stops there, otherwise you stay on until the end.



No kidding!


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## mjr (10 Nov 2017)

Littgull said:


> Yes, that's true. But the majority of travellers will be boarding or alighting at bigger town or city stations.


Bizarrely, barriers are being removed from larger East Coast Mainline stations, but you take your chances of the exit being staffed by ticket inspectors.


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## mjr (10 Nov 2017)

Bothered, or just wondering how this situation arose? I think it's curious, even though I sometimes buy singles nevertheless.


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## robjh (10 Nov 2017)

tyreon said:


> Could someone tell me why a single train ticket of 25 miles costs all but 10p shy of a day return ticket? I guess there's logic in it.


There was a time when it was worse. In the early post-privatisation years in the 1990s, before on-line booking was common, Virgin Trains used to sell their best-value advance tickets by telephone booking. They offered no cheap advance singles, only returns, with the result that a single ticket could cost twice the price of a return. Obviously people realised this so they would book a return and travel one way only. This then led to a lot of empty seats on trains from unused returns, so Virgin instructed their phone sales people to quiz people carefully about their return plans, and refuse to sell them a return ticket if they doubted the passenger would use it. Result : many unhappy customers and unhappy telesales people. 
I believe it took the regulator to step in and insist that for every return ticket there be a cheaper single, and a 10p difference was about the minimum they could get away with. So now, across much (but not all) of the network, off-peak singles are priced at off-peak return minus 10p.


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## theclaud (10 Nov 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> If you only want a single why are you bothered by how much a return costs?
> 
> I often end my rides out in the sticks and get a train home. I ask the price of the ticket that I want. I don't ask about tickets that I don't want, as their price is of no interest. I pay the required cost, and I don't try to defraud the train company. I'm not bothered by where there are or are not barriers because I have the right ticket and am not attempting to evade the fare.



The ticket I want is often about £256, so I have to forget it and opt for a ticket I can make do with. Tickets I want and can actually afford are becoming rarer every season thanks to The Confusopoly™, so I often make plans around ticket/reservation restrictions rather than the other way round.


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## Gravity Aided (10 Nov 2017)

American trains are much the same in pricing. I think it is to discourage random travel, so the railroad knows how many are going, and can reasonably extrapolate how many are coming back, on a given day. This allows them to have enough rolling stock on hand to handle demand. Although British trains do often confuse me, by what I see on YouTube. There is a Great Western Railroad, and a First Great Western as well. LMS trains seem to make a warbling noise. And there seem to be a lot of diesels, even where there is catenary. And Crewe seems to have many a train. Lovely rail system, though.


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## classic33 (10 Nov 2017)

Gravity Aided said:


> American trains are much the same in pricing. I think it is to discourage random travel, so the railroad knows how many are going, and can reasonably extrapolate how many are coming back, on a given day. This allows them to have enough rolling stock on hand to handle demand. Although British trains do often confuse me, by what I see on YouTube. There is a Great Western Railroad, and a First Great Western as well. LMS trains seem to make a warbling noise. And there seem to be a lot of diesels, even where there is catenary. And Crewe seems to have many a train. Lovely rail system, though.


GWR, LNER, LMS & SR were the big Four. First GW is a more modern slant on the GWR.


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## Julia9054 (10 Nov 2017)

Gravity Aided said:


> American trains are much the same in pricing. I think it is to discourage random travel, so the railroad knows how many are going, and can reasonably extrapolate how many are coming back, on a given day. This allows them to have enough rolling stock on hand to handle demand. Although British trains do often confuse me, by what I see on YouTube. There is a Great Western Railroad, and a First Great Western as well. LMS trains seem to make a warbling noise. And there seem to be a lot of diesels, even where there is catenary. And Crewe seems to have many a train. Lovely rail system, though.


I wish British train companies thought about having enough rolling stock to handle demand. Took my new Brompton on its first train trip to Manchester on Friday afternoon. I stood all the way in the doorway crammed in with all the other mouth breathers up in my face. Really unpleasant. I haven't been on my bike since Sunday because I now have a stinking cold.


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## classic33 (10 Nov 2017)

Julia9054 said:


> I wish British train companies thought about having enough rolling stock to handle demand. Took my new Brompton on its first train trip to Manchester on Friday afternoon. I stood all the way in the doorway crammed in with all the other mouth breathers up in my face. Really unpleasant. I haven't been on my bike since Sunday because I now have a stinking cold.


Did you go via Leeds? on a 156?


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## Gravity Aided (10 Nov 2017)

classic33 said:


> GWR, LNER, LMS & SR were the big Four. First GW is a more modern slant on the GWR.


Over here, when truly old people refer to the Big Four, they mean the C.C.C and StL,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland,_Cincinnati,_Chicago_and_St._Louis_Railway
a forerunner of the western districts of the New York Central System. This folded into Penn Central, folded into ConRail, divided by Norfolk/Southern and CSX, the two major freight railways east of the Mississippi River.
I find railroad history fascinating, full of coincidences and interrelationships. Although most of what I know of British Railways comes from C. Hamilton Ellis' books on the subject.


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## Julia9054 (10 Nov 2017)

classic33 said:


> Did you go via Leeds? on a 156?


Yes. Don't know.


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## Gravity Aided (10 Nov 2017)

classic33 said:


> Did you go via Leeds? on a 156?


Is that like one of those multiple unit railcars? Anorak fully deployed, now.


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## classic33 (10 Nov 2017)

Gravity Aided said:


> Over here, when truly old people refer to the Big Four, they mean the C.C.C and StL,
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland,_Cincinnati,_Chicago_and_St._Louis_Railway
> a forerunner of the western districts of the New York Central System. This folded into Penn Central, folded into ConRail, divided by Norfolk/Southern and CSX, the two major freight railways east of the Mississippi River.
> I find railroad history fascinating, full of coincidences and interrelationships. Although most of what I know of British Railways comes from C. Hamilton Ellis' books on the subject.


Try Ian Allen, bookwise.


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## Gravity Aided (10 Nov 2017)

Not much access over here, never seen those . At 12 shillings sixpence sounds a bargain.


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## growingvegetables (10 Nov 2017)

tyreon said:


> ... I guess there's *logic* in it. ...


Seriously?


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## classic33 (10 Nov 2017)

Gravity Aided said:


> Is that like one of those multiple unit railcars? Anorak fully deployed, now.


Standard sort up these parts.


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## classic33 (10 Nov 2017)

growingvegetables said:


> Seriously?


He did say "guess"!

Logic to who is another matter altogether.


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## Gravity Aided (10 Nov 2017)

classic33 said:


> Standard sort up these parts.
> View attachment 382595


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## Gravity Aided (10 Nov 2017)

By the way, I think on off peak days like Wednesdays, the fare to Chicago, 150 Miles, a little over 2 hours run time, is about $14 USD, and a round trip is $21 USD.
New Siemens locomotives may trim that time down a bit.


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## snorri (10 Nov 2017)

I've never done much planning for tours or holidays unless there is a rail journey included. Time spent researching online websites to find a fare considerably lower than the initial quote is never wasted.
I was quoted £82 for a trip to Liverpool next week, but by travelling over a different route and splitting the journey I have obtained a ticket for £35 with little difference in journey time or convenience.


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## Gravity Aided (10 Nov 2017)

Wednesday is a good day. Off peak fares, museums are free, less crowding. And you can get the interurban South Shore Line out to Indiana Dunes and have a nice quiet getaway, like going to the seashore, even if it's Lake Michigan. Still pretty vast.


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## classic33 (10 Nov 2017)

Gravity Aided said:


> By the way, I think on off peak days like Wednesdays, the fare to Chicago, *150 Miles, a little over 2 hours run time, *is about $14 USD, and a round trip is $21 USD.
> New Siemens locomotives may trim that time down a bit.


It's taken me that long to get to Leeds, by train, less than 20 miles away.


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## classic33 (10 Nov 2017)

Gravity Aided said:


> Not much access over here, never seen those . At 12 shillings sixpence sounds a bargain.


http://www.ianallanpublishing.com/


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## Gravity Aided (10 Nov 2017)

classic33 said:


> It's taken me that long to get to Leeds, by train, less than 20 miles away.


Times aren't guaranteed, you may get a freight train out ahead of you, or a mechanical failure, but I have a pretty good idea when Amtrak runs past, and they are pretty reliable. Our freight road is Union Pacific, and they mostly run double stack container trains from their big yard near Joliet/Plainfield, and those trains run pretty fast as well.


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## Gravity Aided (10 Nov 2017)

classic33 said:


> http://www.ianallanpublishing.com/


Duly bookmarked, with many thanks.


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## Gravity Aided (10 Nov 2017)

Texas Eagle, #22 to Chicago, 2 hours late from Texas, just past my house now.


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## mcshroom (10 Nov 2017)

snorri said:


> I've never done much planning for tours or holidays unless there is a rail journey included. Time spent researching online websites to find a fare considerably lower than the initial quote is never wasted.
> I was quoted £82 for a trip to Liverpool next week, but by travelling over a different route and splitting the journey I have obtained a ticket for £35 with little difference in journey time or convenience.


I find splitting on travel to and from tours can really bring down the price. A common one for me is a through ticket to Oban/Ft William from Whitehaven cost a lot more than buying two tickets, one to Glasgow Central and one from Glasgow Queen St. It's the same trains, but I saved £70 on that split once.


One rule that is helpful I've found, is that if you buy two split ticket singles in the same transaction, the Conditions of Carriage still apply so if the first train is delayed and you miss the connection, they are required to get you to the end of your ticket as if it was a single through ticket. I did that coming back from Fort William in April, and although it was a faff (apparently ScotRail weren't allowed to amend your booking on a Virgin train!), it did work


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## classic33 (10 Nov 2017)

Gravity Aided said:


> Texas Eagle, #22 to Chicago, 2 hours late from Texas, just past my house now.


http://www.acwr.com/economic-development/rail-maps

And for those stuck on the platforms in the UK
http://www.opentraintimes.com/maps


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## mjr (10 Nov 2017)

classic33 said:


> GWR, LNER, LMS & SR were the big Four. First GW is a more modern slant on the GWR.


First GW (purple and light blue on dark blue nightclub paint job, officially called dynamic lines IIRC) has rebranded itself GWR (silver on dark green).

The UK national rail system is currently split up between Stagecoach (a bus company), First (a bus company), Arriva aka German Railways Deutsche Bahn, Abellio aka Dutch Railways, GoVia which I think has some French Railways SNCF involvement , MTR which is far eastern somewhere, and various others. Look up "battling business units" on Dilbert.com for a basic overview


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## classic33 (10 Nov 2017)

mjr said:


> First GW (purple and light blue on dark blue nightclub paint job, officially called dynamic lines IIRC) has rebranded itself GWR (silver on dark green).
> 
> The UK national rail system is currently split up between Stagecoach (a bus company), First (a bus company), Arriva aka German Railways Deutsche Bahn, Abellio aka Dutch Railways, GoVia which I think has some French Railways SNCF involvement , MTR which is far eastern somewhere, and various others. Look up "battling business units" on Dilbert.com for a basic overview


First isn't only into trains or buses, nor are they only in the UK and their CEO had a cousin who was transport manager for the NXGroup.


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## mjr (10 Nov 2017)

classic33 said:


> First isn't only into trains or buses, nor are they only in the UK and their CEO had a cousin who was transport manager for the NXGroup.


Of course, but most people will know them for their bus monopolies.


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## nickyboy (11 Nov 2017)

Littgull said:


> I think there maybe. I'm not certain but I think the advanced ticket (special price) tickets only entitle the passenger to that price if they take that particular timed train and do not board or alight at any station other than the start and end station on the ticket. So if for example you got off at an earlier station the ticket inspector at the station exit would ask you to pay the extra. even if you tried a ruse, for example, and said you have had a sudden emergency and had to alight early. For stations with automatic ticket barriers, I think the ticket when fed though would be rejected and not open the barrier so that would generate a ticket inspector to appear.


I have evidence that is not the case. I had an advance London-Manchester and got off at Stockport. It has automated ticket barriers. They allowed me to exit

There is some logic to this. If you have an advance ticket you can get on the specific train at any point in the journey you've booked. I've done this; I had a Llandudno-Manchester advance ticket but I got on in Rhyl. This was a manned station. I can't confirm whether ticket barriers would accept this or not but I can't see why not


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## TVC (11 Nov 2017)

Leicester to London the cheapest return you can get is £65 and that is at a time that Doesn't suit anyone, the average is closer to £100. However if you go to Rugby or Nuneaton about 15 miles away you can routinely get returns to the smoke for £13. That's the difference between a monopoly and competition.


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## NorthernDave (11 Nov 2017)

classic33 said:


> Did you go via Leeds? on a 156?



156? Luxury! Try it on an unrefurbished 142...



mjr said:


> First GW (purple and light blue on dark blue nightclub paint job, officially called dynamic lines IIRC) has rebranded itself GWR (silver on dark green).
> 
> The UK national rail system is currently split up between Stagecoach (a bus company), First (a bus company), Arriva aka German Railways Deutsche Bahn, Abellio aka Dutch Railways, GoVia which I think has some French Railways SNCF involvement , MTR which is far eastern somewhere, and various others. Look up "battling business units" on Dilbert.com for a basic overview



I think one of the reasons behind the rebranding was that they were making such a hash of running the trains that they'd become more widely known as 'Worst Great Western'


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## classic33 (11 Nov 2017)

NorthernDave said:


> 156? Luxury! Try it on an unrefurbished 142...
> 
> 
> 
> I think one of the reasons behind the rebranding was that they were making such a hash of running the trains that they'd become more widely known as 'Worst Great Western'


Did it many times. 

The first one delivered, and in operation in these parts, is still running having been "refitted".


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## Littgull (11 Nov 2017)

nickyboy said:


> I have evidence that is not the case. I had an advance London-Manchester and got off at Stockport. It has automated ticket barriers. They allowed me to exit
> 
> There is some logic to this. If you have an advance ticket you can get on the specific train at any point in the journey you've booked. I've done this; I had a Llandudno-Manchester advance ticket but I got on in Rhyl. This was a manned station. I can't confirm whether ticket barriers would accept this or not but I can't see why not



That's really interesting @nickyboy. To confuse things, I know of travellers who have purchased advance tickets and when attempting to get on or off at a station other than the start or end of journey printed on the ticket have had to pay the difference to avoid being apprehended for 'fare dodging'.
At the very least, the enforcement of the ticket travel terms and conditions seems to be very inconsistent across the rail franchise companies!


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## srw (11 Nov 2017)

TVC said:


> Leicester to London the cheapest return you can get is £65 and that is at a time that Doesn't suit anyone, the average is closer to £100. However if you go to Rugby or Nuneaton about 15 miles away you can routinely get returns to the smoke for £13. That's the difference between a monopoly and competition.


It's also a perfect illustration of the failure of the free market to perform its (claimed) role of allocating resources in the most efficient way possible - and an indictment of 20 years of transport policy.


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## Littgull (11 Nov 2017)

srw said:


> It's also a perfect illustration of the failure of the free market to perform its (claimed) role of allocating resources in the most efficient way possible - and an indictment of 20 years of transport policy.



Here, here! I totally agree.


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## tallliman (11 Nov 2017)

One of my favourite websites is here http://www.railmaponline.com/UKIEMap.php

It lets me know where I used to be able to get a train from!


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## 400bhp (11 Nov 2017)

nickyboy said:


> I have evidence that is not the case. I had an advance London-Manchester and got off at Stockport. It has automated ticket barriers. They allowed me to exit
> 
> There is some logic to this. If you have an advance ticket you can get on the specific train at any point in the journey you've booked. I've done this; I had a Llandudno-Manchester advance ticket but I got on in Rhyl. This was a manned station. I can't confirm whether ticket barriers would accept this or not but I can't see why not


They do. I’ve often bought a manc-London return knowing full well I’ll be leaving and arriving in Stockport.


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## NorthernDave (11 Nov 2017)

Another good one for former lines - I live near one and work next to another!

http://www.lostrailwayswestyorkshire.co.uk


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## classic33 (12 Nov 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> That's interesting, but it's not really much in the way of evidence. The way barriers react and the validity of a ticket are not always synchronised. I won't bore you with stories of barriers refusing valid tickets, just trust me it happens.
> 
> People can be and have been prosecuted for terminating journeys short. And it's pretty clear in the conditions of carriage, or whatever they call it these days, that it's not allowed. You got lucky, that the operator didn't want or was unable to enforce the terms that you agreed to when you bought the ticket.
> 
> ...


I've had valid tickets refused at the stations named on the tickets. By both machine and revenue protection officers.


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## nickyboy (12 Nov 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> That's interesting, but it's not really much in the way of evidence. The way barriers react and the validity of a ticket are not always synchronised. I won't bore you with stories of barriers refusing valid tickets, just trust me it happens.
> 
> People can be and have been prosecuted for terminating journeys short. And it's pretty clear in the conditions of carriage, or whatever they call it these days, that it's not allowed. You got lucky, that the operator didn't want or was unable to enforce the terms that you agreed to when you bought the ticket.
> 
> ...


Hmmmm...the staff at Rhyl station specifically said that I could get on there despite my Advanced Ticket being Llandudno to Manchester. So long as I was getting on the correct train then all was ok

Seems inconsistency is the issue


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## srw (12 Nov 2017)

nickyboy said:


> Seems inconsistency is the issue


Or, as @theclaud says, a confusocracy - an inherently complex system that no-one really understands. Although I suspect that's a consequence of other decisions rather than a deliberate choice.


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## Blue Hills (12 Nov 2017)

TVC said:


> Leicester to London the cheapest return you can get is £65 and that is at a time that Doesn't suit anyone, the average is closer to £100. However if you go to Rugby or Nuneaton about 15 miles away you can routinely get returns to the smoke for £13. That's the difference between a monopoly and competition.


Thanks for this.
Had forgotten that london midland existed. May be handy for future trips. Off to check cycle policy.


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## TVC (12 Nov 2017)

Blue Hills said:


> Thanks for this.
> Had forgotten that london midland existed. May be handy for future trips. Off to check cycle policy.


It is stupid, if you go north from Kings Cross or Euston you can get reasonable prices, if you try to go from St Pancras you get ripped off because there is only one franchise using the line.


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## ColinJ (12 Nov 2017)

The system is bonkers!

The trains from Manchester Victoria to Todmorden pass through Littleborough. Some stop there, some don't. I was told once that my split tickets were not valid - I had a ticket from Manchester to Littleborough and a second ticket from Littleborough to Todmorden but the train I was on did not stop at Littleborough. I should have caught the next train which DID stop at Littleborough even though I did not want to get off there and would just remain in my seat ...


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## classic33 (12 Nov 2017)

ColinJ said:


> The system is bonkers!
> 
> The trains from Manchester Victoria to Todmorden pass through Littleborough. Some stop there, some don't. I was told once that my split tickets were not valid - I had a ticket from Manchester to Littleborough and a second ticket from Littleborough to Todmorden but the train I was on did not stop at Littleborough. I should have caught the next train which DID stop at Littleborough even though I did not want to get off there and would just remain in my seat ...


That's down to County Boundaries. Those two being the last in one and the first in another County. That's the only difference, and down to the operators ticketing system, something you can't control at the time of purchasing the ticket.

Had similar problems when travelling to Manchester.


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## srw (12 Nov 2017)

User said:


> I think there are elements of choice in the mess. If I walk up to a machine at Brighton station to get a ticket to go to London, I have to scroll down to a second page of fares before finding the Thameslink Only fare which is a fair bit cheaper than the Any Permitted equivalent.


It's a toss-up between flexibility of route and price. They've probably had (many) more complaints as a result of people being fined for using the cheaper ticket on the route than they have of people not being able to find the cheaper ticket. In most ticketing systems the default is to look for quicker journeys - the cheaper route is 33% slower than the mainline.


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## nickyboy (12 Nov 2017)

User said:


> I think you need to tidy this up.



Now ship shape and Bristol fashion Sir *salutes*


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## alicat (12 Nov 2017)

> Had forgotten that london midland existed. May be handy for future trips. Off to check cycle policy.



London Midland are fine about bikes. Just rock up and look for the wheelchair sign. You will have to give priority to a wheelchair but would be very, very unlucky not to find somewhere else on the train to put the bike.


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## Supersuperleeds (12 Nov 2017)

TVC said:


> Leicester to London the cheapest return you can get is £65 and that is at a time that Doesn't suit anyone, the average is closer to £100. However if you go to Rugby or Nuneaton about 15 miles away you can routinely get returns to the smoke for £13. That's the difference between a monopoly and competition.



@13 rider @tallliman This could have potential. Ride to Nuneaton, get the train to London and ride back?


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## Blue Hills (12 Nov 2017)

alicat said:


> London Midland are fine about bikes. Just rock up and look for the wheelchair sign. You will have to give priority to a wheelchair but would be very, very unlucky not to find somewhere else on the train to put the bike.


Thanks alicat. Have the impression that most companies that say no booking but a max of 2 bikes per train are in practice rather easygoing. Northern is. In many ways preferable to virgin east and west coast where just booking the bike is god awful hoop jumping.


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## tallliman (12 Nov 2017)

Supersuperleeds said:


> @13 rider @tallliman This could have potential. Ride to Nuneaton, get the train to London and ride back?



Agreed, might need an overnight stop. 25-30 miles then 2 hrs on a train. Followed by 110 miles back up to Lufbra.....possibly a little much for a day.


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## Supersuperleeds (12 Nov 2017)

Blue Hills said:


> Thanks alicat. Have the impression that most companies that say no booking but a max of 2 bikes per train are in practice rather easygoing. Northern is. In many ways preferable to virgin east and west coast where just booking the bike is god awful hoop jumping.


East Midlands also fairly easy going regarding bikes, there were 5 at one point on our train yesterday and no booking required


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## Blue Hills (12 Nov 2017)

Supersuperleeds said:


> East Midlands also fairly easy going regarding bikes, there were 5 at one point on our train yesterday and no booking required


Nice to know. Thanks. Sounds like it's best to take your luggage with them by bike, for from my last experience with them they were awful with more traditional non bike-borne luggage.


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## classic33 (12 Nov 2017)

Blue Hills said:


> Thanks alicat. Have the impression that most companies that say no booking but a max of 2 bikes per train are in practice rather easygoing. Northern is. In many ways preferable to virgin east and west coast where just booking the bike is god awful hoop jumping.


Check with Northern, policy with regards bikes changed September this year. You may find yourself stuck.

It doesn't apply to all services, but you may just get the wrong information given, meaning you don't travel.


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## Blue Hills (12 Nov 2017)

classic33 said:


> Check with Northern, policy with regards bikes changed September this year. You may find yourself stuck.
> 
> It doesn't apply to all services, but you may just get the wrong information given, meaning you don't travel.


Ta will double check.

Trust it won't screw my christmas arrangements.


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## classic33 (12 Nov 2017)

At present it's no wheeled transport at certain hours, on certain routes. The bike storage area has been given over to seating.


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## Blue Hills (12 Nov 2017)

Do you have a link classic.

My google search found this:

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/faq/on-the-train/101-are-cycles-permitted-on-trains

Maybe i found an old page, i know the franchise changed recently.


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## NorthernDave (12 Nov 2017)

classic33 said:


> At present it's no wheeled transport at certain hours, on certain routes. The bike storage area has been given over to seating.



On Northern? Their website still states 2 bike spaces per train*, no reservations for bikes, final decision rests with the guard.

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/travel/cycling/54-bike-on-trains

* - some trains genuinely do have just two bike spaces, others can easily accommodate more.

Edit - TMN to @Blue Hills


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## Blue Hills (12 Nov 2017)

Tend to think i will be fine.

It's northern innit?

And the station i will be heading for looks like the middle of nowhere.


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## EasyPeez (16 Jan 2018)

I wonder if anyone in this thread is familiar with the stations in the North East of the country and can help me with a conundrum - 

Later in the year I shall be cycling the Coasts & Castles route, travelling from Hull to Newcastle by train, cycling Newcastle-Edinburgh over a number of days, then returning from Edinburgh to Hull by train.

Disappointingly, and somewhat ridiculously, a single from Hull to Newcastle and then a single from Edinburgh to Hull comes in at £70 more than a Hull to Edinburgh return. 

I would opt for the latter, but will I then run into trouble trying to disembark 'early' at Newcastle on the outward journey? I don't know the station so am not sure what the barrier situation is or how hot they are on this kind of thing...

To complicate matters further, there is the possibility that I will opt to cycle part way back from Edinburgh to either Dunbar or Berwick-upon-Tweed and pick up the train back to Hull from there. Would getting on further up the line than at Edinburgh also be problematic - I'm guessing so given that I'd need a cycle reservation?

I'm thinking I might need to just suck it up, get 2 singles and get on at the nominated starting stations, but if anyone can suggest ways to make a cheaper return ticket work for this scenario and/or maintain the flexibility around the starting station on the way back I'd be grateful for tips, and more than happy to buy the helpful person a pint.

Cheers,
Andy


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## tallliman (16 Jan 2018)

Have a look on the web at split ticketing, it can save lots of money!!

Apart from that, you can have a break of journey legally on some ticket types but not sure which.


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## EasyPeez (16 Jan 2018)

tallliman said:


> you can have a break of journey legally on some ticket types but not sure which



Good point. I thought this didn't apply to off-peak returns, but it seems it does. So I should in theory be fine to disembark 'early' one way and/or embark 'late' the other way, so long as I get an off-peak return, if this is to be believed - 

*Break of journey*
Break of journey is allowed on the outward portion of Off-Peak tickets unless otherwise indicated by a restriction shown against the ticket's validity code and in all cases on the return portion of Off-Peak return tickets.

You may start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station along the route of travel on Off-Peak tickets unless the ticket restriction for the journey you are making does not allow it. If you intend to start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station, please call 03457 48 49 50 to check if it is available on your specific journey.



Having said that, now I look here - http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ - it seems that single tickets are often quite a bit cheaper than on the site I was using - https://www.thetrainline.com/

Does anyone know why that would be? Who gets that extra money on those prices, and why does Trainline (which I thought was the NRE site until just now - it has their logo on it) claim to help you find the cheapest tickets for your journey if they are sometimes priced higher than on NRE? And also why NRE only lets you book in advance up to April but Trainline allows you to book up to July?

According to NRE a single from Hull to Newcastle is more than tenner dearer than a single from Hull to Edinburgh, when using the exact same train, from the same platform at the same time, but just staying on for a lot fewer stops?! How can that be right? Confused!


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## Littgull (16 Jan 2018)

EasyPeez said:


> Good point. I thought this didn't apply to off-peak returns, but it seems it does. So I should in theory be fine to disembark 'early' one way and/or embark 'late' the other way, so long as I get an off-peak return, if this is to be believed -
> 
> *Break of journey*
> Break of journey is allowed on the outward portion of Off-Peak tickets unless otherwise indicated by a restriction shown against the ticket's validity code and in all cases on the return portion of Off-Peak return tickets.
> ...



The whole privatised rail system of train fares etc is absolutely farcical. I made the decision 12 months ago to do without having a car and travel everywhere by bike, train or foot or a combination of all three. I was fortunate in that I retired early in March 2017, I could get a Senior Railcard with 1/3 discount of fares (as I'm over 60) and I live 300 metres from a railway station on a direct line between Manchester and Leeds. But it's taken me nearly 12 months to get used to all the inconsistencies and quirks. For example, Sundays are the day Network Rail do lots of track maintenance. I can see the sense in that due to it being the 'quietest' day of the week for volume of customers. But several times i have taken my bike on a train only to find that sections of my paid for route have a replacement bus service - that does not accommodate bikes. It's often very poorly communicated in advance. So I have learnt to do my pre ticket purchase research carefully to avoid being stranded!
Using websites like Easyrail to service journeys via 'split tickets' can produce huge savings in ticket costs but it is a real rigmarole having to often take a colossal volume of individual tickets with you to produce for each part of the journey. Also if booking via split tickets and there are several different rail franchises covering different parts of the trip you have to separately book a space for your bike on the train where this is required.

Overall though, I do enjoy travelling by train despite the convoluted arrangements and absurd inconsistencies.


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## Phaeton (16 Jan 2018)

I've just had this, looking at ticket prices, my journey was going to be town > city then city > city then city > town one way ticket £56.10 traveling off peak to go collect a car. The first city is where I work so I thought I'd travel in the car to work, leave the car there & only do city > city then city to town using the same train to do the journeys as before it came out at £22.60 so the first town > city leg they were charging me £33.60 for. Looking at the cost of the initial town > city it's £5.10 so by buying separate tickets I can get the cost down from £56.10 to £27.70 or less than half.


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## Ajax Bay (16 Jan 2018)

EasyPeez said:


> Disappointingly, . . . , a single from Hull to Newcastle and then a single from Edinburgh to Hull comes in at £70 more than a Hull to Edinburgh return.


If you wait till (I think) 12 weeks before your intended travel dates, you should be able to buy tickets at a much lower price, as the SuperApex are put on sale at that period ahead.


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## EasyPeez (16 Jan 2018)

Ajax Bay said:


> If you wait till (I think) 12 weeks before your intended travel dates, you should be able to buy tickets at a much lower price, as the SuperApex are put on sale at that period ahead.


Thanks for the tip. I'd never heard of SuperApex tickets. Are they for single and return? In my experience the longer you wait the more the tickets identified as cheapest on the NRE website are likely to creep up in price.


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## Tim Hall (16 Jan 2018)

EasyPeez said:


> Thanks for the tip. I'd never heard of SuperApex tickets. Are they for single and return? In my experience the longer you wait the more the tickets identified as cheapest on the NRE website are likely to creep up in price.


They're not called Super Apex anymore but Advanced. These are released 12 weeks before train departure date and I suspect you're already encountering them. You'll be tied to a particular time train which might be an issue, especially on the return leg.


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## EasyPeez (16 Jan 2018)

Tim Hall said:


> They're not called Super Apex anymore but Advanced. These are released 12 weeks before train departure date and I suspect you're already encountering them. You'll be tied to a particular time train which might be an issue, especially on the return leg.



Ah, ok. In that case they are what I'm looking at already, and just extrapolating prices from April trains at certain times and assuming trains at exactly the same time in July (which aren't available to book yet) will be similarly priced. Which going on the info so far about all the vagaries of pricing is probably a mistake in itself!


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## mjr (16 Jan 2018)

New timetables usually come out in May and December which can change things, but @EasyPeez's method is probably the best guess you can make at the Advance prices.


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## Ajax Bay (16 Jan 2018)

"Advance tickets are single (one-way) tickets for many longer and some shorter distance journeys, are available in First Class and Standard Class and offer the best available price for each journey. Tickets must be booked in advance up to the day before travel and tickets are subject to availability. Advance tickets are valid only on the specific booked train"
Having had a quick look at your journey, as if you were doing both journeys on 12 Apr, the total of two singles is £41. Seems good value to me, at the disadvantage of having to choose the trains you are going to catch 12 weeks ahead and some departures will not be available at those prices. Put a marker in your diary for 84 days ahead (for the outbound trip) and a few days later for the return from Newcastle.
Edited to add: I use the GWR website - https://www.gwr.com/plan-journey


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## subaqua (16 Jan 2018)

If you can plan ahead you can get some great prices . PAD to PNZ first class return for £40  . I can eat and drink more than that in complimentary stuff in first. 

Rock up on the day and it can be eyewateringly expensive .


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## EasyPeez (17 Jan 2018)

Ajax Bay said:


> "Advance tickets are single (one-way) tickets for many longer and some shorter distance journeys, are available in First Class and Standard Class and offer the best available price for each journey. Tickets must be booked in advance up to the day before travel and tickets are subject to availability. Advance tickets are valid only on the specific booked train"
> Having had a quick look at your journey, as if you were doing both journeys on 12 Apr, the total of two singles is £41. Seems good value to me, at the disadvantage of having to choose the trains you are going to catch 12 weeks ahead and some departures will not be available at those prices. Put a marker in your diary for 84 days ahead (for the outbound trip) and a few days later for the return from Newcastle.
> Edited to add: I use the GWR website - https://www.gwr.com/plan-journey



Yes, I think you're right. Going for advance singles and Plumping for a specific train is definitely the way forward financially. Just means I'll have to build in a bit of time for possible mechanicals and be sure not to get lost. Should add an element of excitement/peril to the whole affair if nothing else!

I already did as you suggested with the diary marker yesterday. 

I'll be travelling back from either Edinburgh, Dunbar or Berwick as opposed to Newcastle (I'll have to make a solid decision about that upfront as opposed to leaving it open to decide on the day as a return ticket would allow) so the cost might be slightly different to the one you found, but should be ballpark.

£40-50 for Hull to Newcastle and then somewhere in Scotland back to Hull is certainly far more palatable than the original £150+ I was looking at, albeit with the need to sacrifice some flexibility.

Thanks for the advice, everyone. As you've probably guesses I'm not much of a user of trains, so this will be helpful planning future forays further afield too.

Cheers.


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## Blue Hills (17 Jan 2018)

subaqua said:


> If you can plan ahead you can get some great prices . PAD to PNZ first class return for £40  . I can eat and drink more than that in complimentary stuff in first.
> .


Good tip  visions of some serious stuffing going on. Surely there must be some limit on what you can eat drink before you roll off the train?


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## mjr (17 Jan 2018)

Blue Hills said:


> Good tip  visions of some serious stuffing going on. Surely there must be some limit on what you can eat drink before you roll off the train?


From memory, on GWR you're only limited by how many times the trolley passes through (if it's a trolley service - not sure if it still is on the new trains) or how much shame you can bear by asking the attendants(?) for more food. It's a limited menu, shown at https://www.gwr.com/plan-journey/first-class but I've never seen anyone refused except on a weekend service when they asked the buffet for products from the on-sale range rather than the included menu. 

On some other services with included full meals like East Coast, they used to keep offering more food on a cycle: starters, drinks, mains, drinks, desserts, drinks. I think it repeated twice during a London-Edinburgh service, with gaps at the ends of the route while they set up and clean up. I've not tried First Class on that route since Virgin took over.

(edited to correct typo: they did not offer us deserts)


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## Flying Dodo (17 Jan 2018)

Although bear in mind Virgin East Coast don't offer the full food service in 1st Class at weekends - it's wraps, nuts and drinks only, so no hot food.


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## NorthernDave (17 Jan 2018)

mjr said:


> From memory, on GWR you're only limited by how many times the trolley passes through (if it's a trolley service - not sure if it still is on the new trains) or how much shame you can bear by asking the attendants(?) for more food. It's a limited menu, shown at https://www.gwr.com/plan-journey/first-class but I've never seen anyone refused except on a weekend service when they asked the buffet for products from the on-sale range rather than the included menu.
> 
> On some other services with included full meals like East Coast, they used to keep offering more food on a cycle: starters, drinks, mains, drinks, desserts, drinks. I think it repeated twice during a London-Edinburgh service, with gaps at the ends of the route while they set up and clean up. I've not tried First Class on that route since Virgin took over.
> 
> (edited to correct typo: they did not offer us deserts)



In my (limited) experience on Virgin East Coast First Class, they need a bit of a nudge to deliver anything but the minimum service - travelling north they'd often not get the food service going until nearly Peterborough, meaning people travelling there only got a drink rather than the advertised meal - which were little better than supermarket microwave meals, despite the supposed celebrity chef tie-ins
The staff could also be quite good at keeping out of sight once underway making it difficult to ask for another drink or snack.
Plus they'd like to have everything finished and put away before Doncaster (travelling to Leeds).

The extra room and plusher seats were nice, but I struggled to see any value in the £220+ cost of an open single.


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## subaqua (17 Jan 2018)

mjr said:


> From memory, on GWR you're only limited by how many times the trolley passes through (if it's a trolley service - not sure if it still is on the new trains) or how much shame you can bear by asking the attendants(?) for more food. It's a limited menu, shown at https://www.gwr.com/plan-journey/first-class but I've never seen anyone refused except on a weekend service when they asked the buffet for products from the on-sale range rather than the included menu.
> 
> On some other services with included full meals like East Coast, they used to keep offering more food on a cycle: starters, drinks, mains, drinks, desserts, drinks. I think it repeated twice during a London-Edinburgh service, with gaps at the ends of the route while they set up and clean up. I've not tried First Class on that route since Virgin took over.
> 
> (edited to correct typo: they did not offer us deserts)



I concur ..


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## bruce1530 (17 Jan 2018)

User said:


> It might be a problem but probably wouldn't. If you are concerned, you could always get the return ticket, and another single from somewhere near Newcastle to Newcastle to use to exit the station.



...or feign illness. You’d be very unlucky to find a station employee who’d stop you and insist on messing around with tickets if you are likely to vomit over them.

I have vivid memories as a small child coming home from a foreign holiday, feeling very unwell and holding an air-sick bag to my face. Just before we arrived at the customs check, my gran hid a half bottle of brandy in my sick bag.....


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## Phaeton (18 Jan 2018)

Looking at ticket prices again for tomorrow, I didn't buy them on Tuesday as not sure what the weather was going to be like, I've just looked the £22.60 ticket is now £45.80


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## mjr (18 Jan 2018)

Phaeton said:


> Looking at ticket prices again for tomorrow, I didn't buy them on Tuesday as not sure what the weather was going to be like, I've just looked the £22.60 ticket is now £45.80


The £22.60 ticket allocation has probably sold out rather than time-expired, but I don't think anyone's exactly sure of the different train operator's practices with Advance tickets. I've booked a few stonking deals 2 hours before departure, which used to be the minimum time to be able to collect prepaid tickets from a machine - I've rarely used print-at-home and never mobile ticketing, which might not have such restrictions... but none of this really helps you because I've never noticed journeys get cheaper as you get nearer to the day


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## mjr (18 Jan 2018)

subaqua said:


> If you can plan ahead you can get some great prices . PAD to PNZ first class return for £40  . I can eat and drink more than that in complimentary stuff in first.


www.brfares.com makes me think that's booked 17+ days ahead for a Mon-Thu off-peak with railcard. Nice when it works out.


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## Phaeton (19 Jan 2018)

Eventually booked it through https://splitmyfare.trainsplit.com/ for £31.06 it was worth not booking earlier for me in case of the bad weather


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## robjh (19 Jan 2018)

mjr said:


> www.brfares.com makes me think that's booked 17+ days ahead for a Mon-Thu off-peak with railcard. Nice when it works out.


I've bookmarked that link, thanks.
It gives a bit of a nerdview of rail fares, but that's alright by me


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## subaqua (19 Jan 2018)

robjh said:


> I've bookmarked that link, thanks.
> It gives a bit of a nerdview of rail fares, but that's alright by me




I make no apologies for knowing how to buck the system , the amount of time I have to spend on trains travelling for work means I am learning the 3 digit station codes too. 
I gotta get out more ...


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## Mr_Kipling (21 Jan 2018)

Dogtrousers said:


> That's interesting, but it's not really much in the way of evidence. The way barriers react and the validity of a ticket are not always synchronised. I won't bore you with stories of barriers refusing valid tickets, just trust me it happens.
> 
> People can be and have been prosecuted for terminating journeys short. And it's pretty clear in the conditions of carriage, or whatever they call it these days, that it's not allowed. You got lucky, that the operator didn't want or was unable to enforce the terms that you agreed to when you bought the ticket.
> 
> ...



I've Been working on the railways 13 years and I work on ticket gates about twice a week.
We can change the settings on the computer and set the gates to accept any ticket at all. Its a setting called "accept all" we use it sometimes when it is busy and any hold up on the Gateline could cause overcrowding. Many passengers will insert their receipt or seat reservation into the gates and hold everyone up while they insert it again another 15 times, or they put their valid ticket near something magnetic (mobile phone case is a classic) which will damage magnetic strip on the back of the ticket and the valid ticket will fail to open the gates. Because of this we set the gates to "accept all" at busy times so even a ticket from 10 years ago will open the gate as long as it has a magnetic strip on the back of the ticket.

Likewise we can also set the gates to reject specific tickets which are valid, an example would be to have the gates reject all tickets that are discounted with a student railcard discount and then check the ticket and railcard manually.

Oh and as for prosecuting people who end their journey early on an advance ticket? Never known this to happen by the company I work for. We only report people for prosecution if we have evidence of intent to avoid payment we don't prosecute for just not having a valid ticket. Countless times people want to leave through the ticket gates that I am working at with an advance ticket mid journey. I either accept the ticket and open the gate or I charge the difference up to the price of a walk up fare single ticket for that journey. 
Most the time we are reasonable people.


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## tyreon (21 Jan 2018)

I guess the best(railway ticket) deals are garnered by being techno-gizmo literate...and which,as a codger,I'm not. A bit of a shame,and discriminatory IMO: discriminatory practice against the slow and techno challenged people(those who cant use mobile phones or have access to them or whatever). Arguing against myself, I guess this is so with water and gas companies and wotnot: the less able get shafted. Itsa sorta Darwinian ethnic cleansing of the least savvy against those better technically endowed. Altho not in favour of the growing disparities in GB you have to admire the silent implementation of getting rid of folk who can't quite keep up. Old and feeble: screw 'em. Inner city and on benefits: implement ethnic cleansing and get 'em outta London. Disabled: introduce anti discriminatory rules and regs which by tortured (HMG) legal-speak logic says there's no one who is/can be disabled.
But the trains are full!!! We welcome old folk and the disabled. Look around! there wont be too many disabled passengers or elderly on the trains: they're all locked indoors, access to travel reduced or denied 'em.
Grannies steps or mission creep is best practice to get rid of those you don't want or need to profit. You eliminate the untermenschen by silent practice.
The railways pricing structures are so hidden with double enigmas that you'd best do a Masters to understand what ticket to buy. 
Must be high fives wherein there's no ticketing staff but a machine to offer you a decent price on a railway journey. Does anyone here think the machine would offer you the best deal!! Richard Branson and the Chief Execs just smile for the cameras! And if they ever make a loss....we pick up the tab. LOL


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## tyreon (21 Jan 2018)

Continuing....
I wonder if I could help myself by buying that Alexa gizmo thingamabob: you know that gizmo you speak to and it gives you an answer. Would that help me buy the cheapest ticket on our multi fragmented railways system. Or,on asking..........would it just blow up!!!


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## Phaeton (21 Jan 2018)

tyreon said:


> I guess the best(railway ticket) deals are garnered by being techno-gizmo literate..


If you can find your way to this forum you can use https://splitmyfare.trainsplit.com/ put in a start point, put in a end point, Bob's your uncle, Fanny's your aunt, job done.


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## tyreon (21 Jan 2018)

With thanks Phaeton.


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## mustang1 (21 Jan 2018)

Julia9054 said:


> I wish British train companies thought about having enough rolling stock to handle demand. Took my new Brompton on its first train trip to Manchester on Friday afternoon. I stood all the way in the doorway crammed in with all the other mouth breathers up in my face. Really unpleasant. I haven't been on my bike since Sunday because I now have a stinking cold.



This makes me realize I would rather sit in traffic but her in my own storage in a car.


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## mjr (22 Jan 2018)

tyreon said:


> I guess the best(railway ticket) deals are garnered by being techno-gizmo literate...and which,as a codger,I'm not. A bit of a shame,and discriminatory IMO: discriminatory practice against the slow and techno challenged people(those who cant use mobile phones or have access to them or whatever).


There's always been discrimination against what you call "the slow". As of earlier this year, one ticket seller at the nearest staffed station will flat-out deny that a specific cheap London ticket exists and insist on selling you one set by his employer that's about three times the price. Not just inform you he can't sell that ticket but claim it no longer exists at all!

At least it's better than motoring, where prices vary by time and geography of station stops, with no way to be sure of the price in advance!


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## Phaeton (22 Jan 2018)

I have to say I do like the train but only use it occasionally which may explain it, Friday's journey was walk 3/4 mile from office, collect tickets, walk to platform wait 10 minutes, get on train there were plenty of seats, it pulled off the platform 30 seconds late, nice quiet relaxing journey just watching the scenery go by, apart from an ignorant bleep who answered his phone & then spoke so loud everybody could hear, thought I was in a Dom Jolly sketch. Through one station & onto the next, off the train, up & over to another platform another 10 minute wait but this time the train was already on the platform so it was a bit warmer. This one pulled off the platform 10 seconds late, 3 stops later at my destination, total time 1.5 hours. Picked up the car & came back, it took 3.25 hours to drive back, roadworks, accidents & just shear volume of traffic on a Friday afternoon.

Have to add that the commuter trains around Birmingham are a lot nicer than the ones around Sheffield


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## mjr (22 Jan 2018)

User said:


> Just looked at prices for a train trip from Rotterdam to Hamburg in June. €42.90 standard class or €52.60 first class.


Cool story(!)

Has anyone seen https://trainsCanBeCheaper.info and https://new.trainsplit.com before? OK, I know their fee (a fraction of the saving) will mean that hardened splitters won't use it, but they look like interesting approaches at making ticket-splitting more user-friendly. It sucks that they don't sell bike reservations, but some train companies don't sell them online either.


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## Phaeton (16 Feb 2018)

I had to go to London week last Wednesday, I got to the station, collected the pre-paid tickets from the machine & went out onto the platform. There was no information about the train I was waiting for, but there was information about the next one to arrive, I waited expecting the board to change to my train. After about 5 minutes in which I paid for my parking the board hadn't changed, so I went back into the ticket office to see the board in there was showing the train was cancelled. On asking in there the staff claimed that the train company were putting a coach on to go part way, it would take 2 hours for that part of the journey then we would have to wait for another train to finish the journey, the original journey time was 1 hour 40 minutes. The coach was already 20 minutes late.

I declined to go on the coach/train as I would miss my meeting, I then contacted the train company as their online system to reclaim the fare kept giving me an error eventually after speaking to 3 different people on 3 occasions it became apparent I couldn't claim the money back from them as I had bought the tickets via thetrainline.com I had to contact them direct who although knew the train had been cancelled & it was an online order could not refund the fare & I would have to sent them the physical tickets to Edinburgh via recorded delivery before anything could be processed.

Another one, I went to London on Tuesday this week, I had to get from King's Cross to London Bridge, if I used my Debit Card it would cost £2.40 each way but I would not get a receipt, if I wanted a receipt I would have to use the ticket machine which meant each ticket would cost £4.95 each, so £2.55 to provide a receipt.


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## snorri (16 Feb 2018)

Phaeton said:


> I would have to sent them the physical tickets to Edinburgh via recorded delivery before anything could be processed.


Which dastardly company is requiring recorded delivery?
I've just had a refund processed for a journey that took 75 more minutes than planned, the tickets were posted second class along with the Claim Form.


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## Phaeton (16 Feb 2018)

snorri said:


> Which dastardly company is requiring recorded delivery?


thetrainline.com


User said:


> East Coast I just uploaded a photo of the ticket and seat reservation.


The actual train company was Hull Trains, which as you say @User you can just send them a picture of the tickets, but as they were bought via thetrainline.com they refused to refund.

What is also annoying they already knew the train was being cancelled before they issued the physical ticket, if I had known 2 minutes earlier it would have saved me £9.75 in parking.


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## Will Spin (16 Feb 2018)

Phaeton said:


> Another one, I went to London on Tuesday this week, I had to get from King's Cross to London Bridge, if I used my Debit Card it would cost £2.40 each way but I would not get a receipt, if I wanted a receipt I would have to use the ticket machine which meant each ticket would cost £4.95 each, so £2.55 to provide a receipt.


I don't know if this helps in your situation, but if you go to the TFL webpage and set up an account, you can link debit/credit cards used for contactless payments and download a journey and payment history statement.


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## Phaeton (19 Feb 2018)

Will Spin said:


> I don't know if this helps in your situation, but if you go to the TFL webpage and set up an account, you can link debit/credit cards used for contactless payments and download a journey and payment history statement.


I'm impressed with that, created an account, added the same card as I used last week & they immediately linked the card with the journey & provided an invoice/receipt for it. Thank you.


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## theclaud (14 Mar 2018)

Look at this shower of bastards.


View: https://twitter.com/VirginTrains/status/973616119209750529


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## jefmcg (14 Mar 2018)

User13710 said:


> Perhaps @Mr_Kipling can tell me if something I heard recently is true? A train-assisted ride was starting from one station, and heading home from a different station on a different line. The organiser said to buy a return to/from the start station. I queried whether this would be valid from the finish station, and her reply was that the train operator (Southern) would be OK with any return ticket as long as the price would cover the journey. I cannot believe this is true, but she was adamant that it would be OK.
> (As it happens, the ride was cancelled due to bad weather, but I feared that a group of well-intentioned but misinformed people were going to find themselves having to buy an extra single ticket in order to get home.)


For next time, if it is on a weekend and you can plan in advance - and all the trains are Southern - then a DaySave might be the best choice.

But as they are non refundable and need to be purchased 3 days in advance, you'd have been stuck with them.


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## Chris S (22 Sep 2019)

Yesterday I bought a single ticket for £26 instead of a return for £26.10. I didn't realize what I had done until just one ticket dropped out of the machine. I could have bought a new pair of tyres with the money that I had wasted.


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## Blue Hills (22 Sep 2019)

One way of cutting train fares, if you like riding a bike, and have no issues with carrying luggage, is to train it to one place, go for a bike ride, hop on at another station. Often do this travelling between london and the north west. Also avoids the sheer hassle of booking a bike on the intercity trains. Now screwed on both west and east coast lines. Also means I can decide to travel at short notice and virgin trains can shove their "promo" emails.


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## Phaeton (22 Sep 2019)

Chris S said:


> Yesterday I bought a single ticket for £26 instead of a return for £26.10. I didn't realize what I had done until just one ticket dropped out of the machine. I could have bought a new pair of tyres with the money that I had wasted.


Typical of illogical pricing if I catch the train to work it's £6.30 single or £6.90 return but this normally works in their favour as I tend to buy a return just in case the weather is bad & I don't fancy the ride home


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## Flying Dodo (24 Sep 2019)

From next year, they're going to start altering some train fares to be more fairly priced, so you won't get a £10 single or £10.10 return, but a £5.05 single.


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## theclaud (24 Sep 2019)

Flying Dodo said:


> From next year, they're going to start altering some train fares to be more fairly priced, so you won't get a £10 single or £10.10 return, but a £5.05 single.


Or a £10 single, and a £20 return...


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## mjr (25 Sep 2019)

Flying Dodo said:


> From next year, they're going to start altering some train fares to be more fairly priced, so you won't get a £10 single or £10.10 return, but a £5.05 single.


I'll believe it when I see a dodo fly!


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## Flying Dodo (25 Sep 2019)

theclaud said:


> Or a £10 single, and a £20 return...


Possibly, although the LNER example would indicate a little less gouging of your wallet.


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## theclaud (25 Sep 2019)

Flying Dodo said:


> Possibly, although the LNER example would indicate a little less gouging of your wallet.


Good, but it's fair for say I don't trust the TOCs on this. Or anything else. The idea that they are straining every sinew to simplify ticket pricing is a bit odd, considering passengers never wanted the Confusopoly they inflicted upon us in the first place.


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## mjr (25 Sep 2019)

theclaud said:


> Good, but it's fair for say I don't trust the TOCs on this. Or anything else. The idea that they are straining every sinew to simplify ticket pricing is a bit odd, considering passengers never wanted the Confusopoly they inflicted upon us in the first place.


Sounds like another person who's realised that "improved at- seat catering service" really means "ripping out the buffets and putting understocked trollies on that can't move through the train properly to serve lukewarm tea and coffee made from dust"!


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## Low Gear Guy (25 Sep 2019)

theclaud said:


> Good, but it's fair for say I don't trust the TOCs on this. Or anything else. The idea that they are straining every sinew to simplify ticket pricing is a bit odd, considering passengers never wanted the Confusopoly they inflicted upon us in the first place.


Simplifying the fares could mean removing all special offers and off peak fares. Beware what you wish for.


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## glasgowcyclist (25 Sep 2019)

Some people on this thread may already be aware but it's worth pointing out that if you have a hearing aid you qualify for a disabled person's rail card, giving savings for you *and* one companion of 1/3rd off your tickets. Unlike other cards, such as the under 25 rail card, there is no restriction on the times or dates it may be applied.

Also, have a search for sites which will work out your cheapest fare for a given journey by splitting your tickets. See this article on Money Saving Expert


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## mjr (25 Sep 2019)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Some people on this thread may already be aware but it's worth pointing out that if you have a hearing aid you qualify for a disabled person's rail card, giving savings for you *and* one companion of 1/3rd off your tickets. Unlike other cards, such as the under 25 rail card, there is no restriction on the times or dates it may be applied.


That seems a bit of a strange loophole, as many hearing problems not correctable with aids do not qualify and vision problems correctable by glasses do not qualify. Another odd loophole is that you can have a disabled railcard if you are prohibited from driving because of epilepsy, but not for any other medical prohibitions.

The whole UK railcard system is a mess. The disabled railcard should be brought into line with other definitions one way or another and most of the rest should be replaced with simple discount cards like in some other countries.


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## glasgowcyclist (25 Sep 2019)

mjr said:


> That seems a bit of a strange loophole,



It's not a loophole, it's one of the eligible criteria specified.


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## classic33 (25 Sep 2019)

mjr said:


> ...Another odd loophole is that you can have a disabled railcard if you are prohibited from driving because of epilepsy, but not for any other medical prohibitions.
> ...


Hardly a "loophole".


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## bruce1530 (25 Sep 2019)

> Some people on this thread may already be aware but it's worth pointing out that if you have a hearing aid you qualify for a disabled person's rail card, giving savings for you *and* one companion of 1/3rd off your tickets.





> That seems a bit of a strange loophole, as many hearing problems not correctable with aids do not qualify and vision problems correctable by glasses do not qualify. .



The eligibility criteria is "Are registered as deaf or use a hearing aid”. A Hearing Aid prescription (or NHS battery book) is one of the ways you can demonstrate eligibility. There are others.


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## Ming the Merciless (25 Sep 2019)

Flying Dodo said:


> Possibly, although the LNER example would indicate a little less gouging of your wallet.



Well I'll need a ticket on one of those routes once their trial starts, so we will see. I just wish they'd simplify bike booking and be clearer on how they'll be carried. I hate those dangly spaces as whenever I take the bike long distances I always have bike luggage and mudguards. The dangly spaces weren't designed for that.


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## mjr (25 Sep 2019)

classic33 said:


> Hardly a "loophole".


Quite right. "Bizarre limitation" would be more accurate.


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## classic33 (25 Sep 2019)

mjr said:


> Quite right. "Bizarre limitation" would be more accurate.


How many other conditions, listed or not, make it illegal to drive.


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## mjr (26 Sep 2019)

classic33 said:


> How many other conditions, listed or not, make it illegal to drive.


There are many. I don't know the exact number but there are lists linked from under "Detailed Guidance" on https://www.gov.uk/guidance/general-information-assessing-fitness-to-drive


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## classic33 (26 Sep 2019)

mjr said:


> There are many. I don't know the exact number but there are lists linked from under "Detailed Guidance" on https://www.gov.uk/guidance/general-information-assessing-fitness-to-drive


_"The DVLA defines the risk of a sudden disabling event as:

20% likelihood of an event in 1 year for Group 1 licensing
2% likelihood of an event in 1 year Gro 2 licensing"_


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## mustang1 (26 Sep 2019)

I don't understand what you don't understand. 

I sometimes see two for one deals. You are almost getting two journeys for the price of one! (Or already within 10p of each other). 

Instead of seeing the is as two journeys and one journey should be half price, see it as one journey and you're getting the second one for almost free.

It's a bit like when I go shopping and I can buy two packs of crisps for only a little bit more but I only want one pack.


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## Dogtrousers (26 Sep 2019)

mustang1 said:


> I don't understand what you don't understand.
> 
> I sometimes see two for one deals. You are almost getting two journeys for the price of one! (Or already within 10p of each other).
> 
> ...


Yes, there are plenty of things that are baffling about UK railway ticketing, but the difference in price between a single and a return isn't one of them.


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## Blue Hills (26 Sep 2019)

mustang1 said:


> I don't understand what you don't understand.
> 
> I sometimes see two for one deals. You are almost getting two journeys for the price of one! (Or already within 10p of each other).
> 
> ...


and notoriously those supermarket deals are terrible deals - verging on fraudulent.

Are you a train company marketeer?

British train fares are a well acknowledged mess.


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## mjr (26 Sep 2019)

Dogtrousers said:


> Yes, there are plenty of things that are baffling about UK railway ticketing, but the difference in price between a single and a return isn't one of them.


Go on then: explain why it's only a few pence different...


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## mustang1 (28 Sep 2019)

Blue Hills said:


> and notoriously those supermarket deals are terrible deals - verging on fraudulent.
> 
> *Are you a train company marketeer?*
> 
> British train fares are a well acknowledged mess.



Not at all.


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## BrumJim (30 Sep 2019)

mjr said:


> Go on then: explain why it's only a few pence different...


Because the train has to go back anyway, even if you don't. Otherwise there would be a pile of trains at one end of the track.


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## mjr (30 Sep 2019)

BrumJim said:


> Because the train has to go back anyway, even if you don't. Otherwise there would be a pile of trains at one end of the track.


If that's the case, then why isn't the difference between single and returns greater on routes with similar ticket sales in each direction?

It's not quite the case: trains circulate. There are lots of route, crew and stabling restrictions, but not all trains spend their days shuttling on one route before ending up back where they started. One small station to see this in action is Norwich, where some regional trains do simple reversals, but many swap between Cambridge, Yarmouth and Lowestoft runs, plus there seems to be a train which arrives from Lowestoft about 7am then its next service takes it to Liverpool!


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## BrumJim (30 Sep 2019)

mjr said:


> If that's the case, then why isn't the difference between single and returns greater on routes with similar ticket sales in each direction?
> 
> It's not quite the case: trains circulate. There are lots of route, crew and stabling restrictions, but not all trains spend their days shuttling on one route before ending up back where they started. One small station to see this in action is Norwich, where some regional trains do simple reversals, but many swap between Cambridge, Yarmouth and Lowestoft runs, plus there seems to be a train which arrives from Lowestoft about 7am then its next service takes it to Liverpool!


There is a depot at Norwich (Crown Point?), so the trains come back to Norwich, i.e. arrive from Cambridge, and then set off for a return trip to Yarmouth, etc.

Most people want to return, at least at some point. A bit tricky trying to work out which routes have similar sales for single trips only in each direction, and then making an exception for those routes.


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## Dogtrousers (30 Sep 2019)

mjr said:


> Go on then: explain why it's only a few pence different...


Typically the cheap returns are off peak. A full price standard return is generally significantly more than a full price standard single. The returns are priced that way to appeal to a target segment of travellers who want to make return journeys outside peak times and to encourage use of the service during off peak hours (or to discourage use during peak hours). If you want an answer as to how and why they come up with the specific pricing policies they do I can't give that; If you want a justification for that kind of pricing policy I can't give that either. But the answer to your question is: It's pricing set by the supplier in the aim of maximising revenue while balancing use of the service: They think people will buy more if priced that way.

It's been like that as long as I can remember, even buying return bus tickets in the 70s, I think. (Could be wrong there)


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## mjr (30 Sep 2019)

BrumJim said:


> There is a depot at Norwich (Crown Point?), so the trains come back to Norwich, i.e. arrive from Cambridge, and then set off for a return trip to Yarmouth, etc.


There is also a depot at Cambridge at the other end of that route and some of the regional diesels are there overnight. There's a depot at Ipswich too, although that doesn't currently have the same train types as Norwich, but it will and then we'll probably see units circulating between the Norwich and Ipswich regional routes.



BrumJim said:


> Most people want to return, at least at some point. A bit tricky trying to work out which routes have similar sales for single trips only in each direction, and then making an exception for those routes.


So at the moment, they don't even try, charge everyone almost for the return trip and any tickets sold as reverse-direction singles are almost pure profit?

I thought the oddity of small price differences between singles and returns arose from Beeching-era "market pricing" reforms which estimated that a small enough fixed difference (not a % of price) means that enough one-way off-peak travellers would buy returns instead to make it more profitable than return travellers paying the full cost of their return — and such is the political difficulty of reforming rail fares (someone will always lose out and complain, unless the rail operators take a big loss on the reform) that those fixed differences most commonly of £1 or 2/- (which became 10p on decimalisation) have remained ever since, although they no longer cover the relative cost of the return journeys but it's still better than moving empty seats around for no income.


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## Dogtrousers (30 Sep 2019)

mjr said:


> I thought the oddity of small price differences between singles and returns arose from Beeching-era "market pricing" reforms which estimated that a small enough fixed difference (not a % of price) means that enough one-way off-peak travellers would buy returns instead to make it more profitable than return travellers paying the full cost of their return — and such is the political difficulty of reforming rail fares (someone will always lose out and complain, unless the rail operators take a big loss on the reform) that those fixed differences most commonly of £1 or 2/- (which became 10p on decimalisation) have remained ever since.


That's pretty much what I thought too. Personally I've never found it invidious - if I want an off peak return I whoop with joy because I think I've got a bargain. I may even quietly compliment myself on being such a savvy operator for spotting said bargain. If I want an off peak single - well I'm still getting it cheaper than full price so I still tell myself I'm a clever chap for being so wise as to travel off-peak. If I want to travel at peak time - I am doomed to expensive misery.


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