# Vaccination vs anti-vaccination.



## mickle (4 Jan 2015)

Anti-vaccers, what if they're right? Is it all so clear cut as we're led to believe?


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## classic33 (4 Jan 2015)

Does being unable to be given the "three jabs in one" mean I cannot answer.


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## Tin Pot (4 Jan 2015)

mickle said:


> Anti-vaccers, what if they're right? Is it all so clear cut as we're led to believe?



They are not. End of.

They can vaccinate or fark off to a failed state.


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## mickle (4 Jan 2015)

Tin Pot said:


> They are not. End of.
> 
> They can vaccinate or fark off to a failed state.



I was hoping for a bit higher quality debate. But thanks for your input.


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## Arrowfoot (4 Jan 2015)

This has been a long standing conundrum. Not about the vaccines though, the existence of such people in our midst.


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## buggi (4 Jan 2015)

Maybe we should ask all those kids who suffered from small pox. O yea, that's right, we can't, they are dead.


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## Shanks (4 Jan 2015)

Summed up here quite well, with apologies in advance for the language.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfdZTZQvuCo


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## classic33 (4 Jan 2015)

Due to health reasons, I wasn't allowed the injections. Three seperate vaccines/injections over the course of a day, whilst in Junior School.
Can't be given the MMR or flu vaccinations. These two on safety grounds.


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## jefmcg (4 Jan 2015)

User said:


> MMR is safe. It has been used routinely in other countries for nearly 50 years - countries like New Zealand (where it was known as 'Triple Vac'),


Are you thinking of the triple antigen? That was diphtheria, whooping cough and tetanus. 

I remember asking my mum about whooping cough. She explained it wasn't to protect me, but little babies who died from it were too young to be vaccinated. I'm am proud she was giving me a vaccine to contribute to herd immunity and care for other members of our community.


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## BigAl68 (4 Jan 2015)

When idiots like Andrew Wakefield published his lies and quack findings in the lancet it set back vaccinations 30 years. Don't believe the new age nonsense unless you want your children and other people's children to suffer.


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## Drago (4 Jan 2015)

Vaccination against what?


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## jack smith (4 Jan 2015)

I had to have all of these you can imagine when my disabled brother was still alive as if he got ill anything small could be multiplied to be worse with him.
i had two terrible reactions within a year and the final one from a simple flu jab caused me to fit and temporarily lose my sight about 5-10 mins after having it .. The hospitals excuse when i got taken back in a hurry was "it has that effect on people with a strong immune stystem it can cause your body to crash" so when was i told that beforehand? Never again am i having any vaccine shoved into my body id much rather trust my immune stystem which is already fine for me and seems to do the job well.


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## Arrowfoot (4 Jan 2015)

jack smith said:


> I had to have all of these you can imagine when my disabled brother was still alive as if he got ill anything small could be multiplied to be worse with him.
> i had two terrible reactions within a year and the final one from a simple flu jab caused me to fit and temporarily lose my sight about 5-10 mins after having it .. The hospitals excuse when i got taken back in a hurry was "it has that effect on people with a strong immune stystem it can cause your body to crash" so when was i told that beforehand? Never again am i having any vaccine shoved into my body id much rather trust my immune stystem which is already fine for me and seems to do the job well.




A lot of people are allergic to penicillin. Nearly every medication that has proven to have saved millions cannot be taken by many others, One of the unfoturnate things in live. The fact that Andrew Wakefield was allowed to run wild for sometime reflected badly on the medical fraternity.


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## Arrowfoot (4 Jan 2015)

There should be a law that stops misguided religious parents who on the basis of their view of their religion do not allow their children access to the right medication and treatment.


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## the_mikey (4 Jan 2015)

Vaccinations are designed to provoke a response from the immune system that will allow the immune system to fight a more unpleasant viral invader, some vaccinations will themselves cause illness but that is part of how they work. It's not a magical fluid that kills viruses.


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## albion (4 Jan 2015)

At the moment, we have no loony wrong doctrine(a political nature, not scientific) on vaccination so it is mainly all pro.

OTT parents not vaccinating seem to be causing that increase in old diseases. So, in such a strange world, the future we could see parents being sued for causing new epidemics.


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## ufkacbln (4 Jan 2015)

buggi said:


> Maybe we should ask all those kids who suffered from small pox. O yea, that's right, we can't, they are dead.



Just to be pedantic.... so are many of the ones who didn't catch small pox

Edited... or you could ask the ones that survived - estimates of fatality range from 20 - 80% depending on age and type


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## ufkacbln (4 Jan 2015)

Arrowfoot said:


> There should be a law that stops misguided religious parents who on the basis of their view of their religion do not allow their children access to the right medication and treatment.



How far do you want to push this?

There are those who would be for a law that stops misguided parents riding bicycles with children on board !


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## Tin Pot (4 Jan 2015)

mickle said:


> I was hoping for a bit higher quality debate. But thanks for your input.



It's a straightforward situation, there is no need to confuse people with anecdotes, fallacies and pseudoscience.


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## Katherine (4 Jan 2015)

There are people who can't have vaccinations. They can only be protected by the herd immunity. 
Some parents don't consider serious complications that are possible with these illnesses. Children who are unvaccinated are relying on the immunity of their peers.


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## Markymark (4 Jan 2015)

Feel free to not vaccinate your chikd but then isolate them so they can't infect those who cannot be immunised due to health, age etc.


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## Arrowfoot (4 Jan 2015)

Cunobelin said:


> How far do you want to push this?
> 
> There are those who would be for a law that stops misguided parents riding bicycles with children on board !



Yet a hear a religion that forbids the riding of bicycles. Must be a first. Goes to show how sheltered I am .


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## ufkacbln (4 Jan 2015)

Arrowfoot said:


> Yet a hear a religion that forbids the riding of bicycles. Must be a first. Goes to show how sheltered I am .



Try Islam....

Women are not allowed to ride bicycles for a number of reasons including the fact that the clothing may form against the body revealing the shape. In Saudi Arabia there has been a relaxation, and women can now ride bicycles, but only is specific leisure areas wearing full robes and accompanied by a male relative


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## mickle (4 Jan 2015)

So is this just a pile of BS then? 

www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2012/07/05/herd-immunity-the-flawed-science-and-failures-of-mass-vaccination-suzanne-humphries-md-3/


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## the_mikey (4 Jan 2015)

There's no right or wrong, vaccinations are not a guaranteed fix against a virus, but the evidence for vaccinations is positive, equally you could argue for natural selection as an equally valid response, but the end result is no more likely to please the people who argue against vaccinations.


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## BigAl68 (4 Jan 2015)

Suzanne humphries is a bit of a nut job IMO. She gives lots of credence to science but has given up medical practice in favour of homeopathic practice. But everyone has their own opinion but personally having worked in health care for the last 10 years with my trust having stopped offering homeopathic treatment I take her medical opinions with a large pinch of sodium chloride


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## mcshroom (4 Jan 2015)

mickle said:


> So is this just a pile of BS then?
> 
> www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2012/07/05/herd-immunity-the-flawed-science-and-failures-of-mass-vaccination-suzanne-humphries-md-3/


Pretty Much - http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/02/03/the-clueless-cite-the-ignorant/


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## winjim (4 Jan 2015)

mickle said:


> So is this just a pile of BS then?
> 
> www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2012/07/05/herd-immunity-the-flawed-science-and-failures-of-mass-vaccination-suzanne-humphries-md-3/


That website certainly has my BS detector flashing.

http://www.quackwatch.com/04ConsumerEducation/nonrecorg.html


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## Arrowfoot (4 Jan 2015)

Cunobelin said:


> Try Islam....
> 
> Women are not allowed to ride bicycles for a number of reasons including the fact that the clothing may form against the body revealing the shape. In Saudi Arabia there has been a relaxation, and women can now ride bicycles, but only is specific leisure areas wearing full robes and accompanied by a male relative



You got me there. Thanks 

I guess Marx was right on at least one thing - religion.


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## Drago (4 Jan 2015)

I guess all this business with vaccination is like the parallel argument about seatbelts. Sure, there may be occasions where the seatbelt malfunctions or performs in a manner that make the injuries worse, but in the vast majority of cases they're beneficial when preventing serious injury.

..Mich the same with injections. A few people react badly, but the majority don't. Even if you react badly, is it worse to suffer a bad reaction, or to be injured for life or even killed by contracting an illness that could be easily been prevented?

Combined MMR is a different case entirely. A decade of hysteria and debase based upon "scientific"findings so flawed, so wrongfully presented, that the outcome of death and disability it has wrought in is verging on the criminal.


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## Markymark (4 Jan 2015)

It's not just about the child you are immunising but creating a wall of immunising the population stopping those too ill or too young to be immunised from getting infected.


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## Arrowfoot (4 Jan 2015)

User said:


> That's more bollocks I'm afraid. A particular Islamic sect in a particular Islamic country may not like women riding bicycles but to suggest the whole of the Islamic religion is agin it is nonsense...



You seriously need to fix your poor comprehension. The operating words that @Cunobelin cites is that the clothing may form against the body and that is the issue on many things not just on cycling. Olympics and sports have been impacted by similar ruling and it is nothing to do with one particular sect. Its a trend that has been going on for the last 25 years where Islam is concerned. And Saudi Arabia is not the Arctic. Its the place where the followers of Islam around the World tend to seek guidance from. It does not mean these rules are fixed and firm and practiced religiously ( pun intended).. Its more to do with influence and peer pressure rather than the foibles of a a particular sect. 

Take the nut jobs who bombed the tube. They were born and raised here. Ever hear the Yorkshire accent of some of these ladies who are clothed and completely covered. Some of them have not even gone to Saudi Arabia. Ask them why they are not on bike in the UK. Bet you the answer will be something to do with their religion.


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## ufkacbln (4 Jan 2015)

User said:


> That's more bollocks I'm afraid. A particular Islamic sect in a particular Islamic country may not like women riding bicycles but to suggest the whole of the Islamic religion is agin it is nonsense...





Women on bicycles and the restrictions are NOT confined to particular Islamic sect or country, there are numerous Fatwa issued across the Muslim world and across the Shia and Sunni sects

Islam as a religion is contentious over women on bicycles and both Sunni and Shia clerics have voiced opinions on this

A typical opinion from an Islamic site:



> If this is done outside the presence of men, then there is no harm in it, because in principle this is permissible. However, if that is done in a place where men can see the woman, then it is not permissible. Usually, a woman riding a bicycle shows some of her body parts (that are forbidden for other men to see), or wears tight clothes in a manner that shapes the body, or it is possible for her to fall down and therefore would expose her body, and other illicit things could occur.
> 
> 
> You have to know that a woman should not expose her face as this is a cause of Fitnah (affliction) especially in this time of mischief in which we are living.
> ...



The decision from Iran's leading cleric Ayatollah Elm Alhuda is:



> “It is not a sin for a woman to sit on a bicycle saddle, provided she does so indoors or in her backyard. But if she cycles in public …. her movements and posture will lead to corruption and prostitution.“





There is a fuller explanation of the Fatwa here

The sad fact is that even in the UK this disapproval is having an effect. One of the difficulties quoted by the only Muslim ladies cycling club (Cycle Fit at the Jagonari centre in Whitechapel road) in in the UK is the disapproval of the women cycling by the community



Can you name me one ruling that speaks in favour of or allows cycling by women, and allows them to do so freely?


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## PK99 (4 Jan 2015)

jefmcg said:


> Are you thinking of the triple antigen? That was diphtheria, whooping cough and tetanus.
> 
> I remember asking my mum about whooping cough. She explained it wasn't to protect me, but little babies who died from it were too young to be vaccinated. I'm am proud she was giving me a vaccine to contribute to *herd immunity* and care for other members of our community.



I am now suffering from Bronchiectasis (..frequent recurrent chest infections, 5 this year, 4 sets of antibiotics since september) as a result of having pertussis (whooping cough) about 10 years ago (aged 50). 

Advice from doc at the time, was that the whooping cough vaccine wears off with time and adults rely on herd immunity. The failure of parents to vaccinate children was , she said, resulting in more adult cases like mine as the herd immunity was no longer efective.

My consultant is currently trying to decide which antibiotic will be most effective for the bug i brew and will give me a permanent stock to hold at home to start taking as soon as i feel a chest infection building.

I think you can guess my views wrt vaccination


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## PK99 (4 Jan 2015)

Cunobelin said:


> The sad fact is that even in the UK this disapproval is having an effect. One of the difficulties quoted by the only Muslim ladies cycling club (Cycle Fit at the Jagonari centre in Whitechapel road) in in the UK is the disapproval of the women cycling by the community


http://muslimwomeninsports.blogspot.co.uk/2008/11/no-1-muslim-ladies-cycling-club.html

"Even more off-putting is the significant disapproval the women face from their own community. “Women should not be riding bikes. They are stimulating themselves. If they want to stimulate themselves they should get a man,” says one Asian market trader on the pavement outside the Jagonari Women's Educational and Resource Centre in Whitechapel, where the cycling group is based."


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## albion (4 Jan 2015)

the_mikey said:


> There's no right or wrong...but the end result is no more likely to please the people who argue against vaccinations.


Yes there is.

Those not vaccinating are responsible for new outbreaks of old endemics like measles.


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## the_mikey (4 Jan 2015)

albion said:


> Yes there is.
> 
> Those not vaccinyrating are responsible for new outbreaks of old endemics like measles.





albion said:


> Yes there is.
> Those not vaccinating are responsible for new outbreaks of old endemics like measles.




I agree, (I was being slightly facetious) it's not pretty, it's not what most people want, including those who are anti-vaccination.


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## classic33 (4 Jan 2015)

albion said:


> Yes there is.
> 
> Those not vaccinating are responsible for new outbreaks of old endemics like measles.


That's only part of the problem. The virus mutates and becomes immune to older vaccines.

If that were the only thing continuing the virus over the years, why did mass vaccinations fail to stop them?


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## ufkacbln (4 Jan 2015)

User said:


> Yes.
> 
> I also know that there are a variety of views on such matters in the Islamic world and to make the broad brush assertion you made that a single particular view applies is just plain bollocks.




Somehow that does not give a positive or pro-cycling Fatwa or comment from the Leaders who make the community policy

You have yet to prove your side of the argument

Dismissing the issue by calling it bollocks is not acceptable.... Please support your argument with some facts


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## ufkacbln (4 Jan 2015)

sorted


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## atbman (9 Jan 2015)

Countries where polio vaccination levels are the norm and are therefore high = no polio
Opposite (Pakistan Taliban murdering health workers) = lots of polio
India big drive to vaccinate = huge reduction in polio


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## jefmcg (10 Jan 2015)

I think we need to deal with the bigger question: does organic food cause autism?


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## winjim (10 Jan 2015)

http://www.iflscience.com/health-an...utbreak-hits-children-too-young-be-vaccinated


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## ufkacbln (11 Jan 2015)

At last a reply from User (albeit on another thread):



> User said:
> 
> 
> > Now you're just fibbing...
> ...



Read the posts above, and decide on this for yourselves.... have the Fatwa and edict issued by Islamic clerics promoted cycling for Islamic women or hindered them?


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## ufkacbln (11 Jan 2015)

User said:


> I suggest you actually educate yourself as to what a _fatwa_ is - otherwise you're just making yourself look even more foolish and ignorant.
> 
> And I suggesting you stop fibbing about what you actually wrote - as that fib is very easy to disprove, as I've shown.



Please feel free to continue....... and thank you for answering at last


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## ufkacbln (11 Jan 2015)

The posts speak for themselves, as do yours.....

Now do the Fatwa issued support women's cycling in the Muslim community or hamper its promotion?


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## ufkacbln (11 Jan 2015)

Again ... posted on another thread:


User said:


> You claimed there was a single view on women cycling in Islam. When you were pulled for making such a completely absurd claim you then qualified it.
> 
> You've been spinning and lying about it ever since..



As before .... read ALL the posts and make up your own minds


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## srw (11 Jan 2015)

User said:


> MMR is safe. It has been used routinely in other countries for nearly 50 years - countries like New Zealand (where it was known as 'Triple Vac'), which has one of the most advanced pharmacovigilance programmes in the world. If there was a significant risk then it would have come to light by now. It hasn't.
> 
> Anti-vaccers are frothing loons of the worst type. Selfish, ignorant people who put their children, and other people's children, at risk.





jefmcg said:


> Are you thinking of the triple antigen? That was diphtheria, whooping cough and tetanus.
> 
> I remember asking my mum about whooping cough. She explained it wasn't to protect me, but little babies who died from it were too young to be vaccinated. I'm am proud she was giving me a vaccine to contribute to herd immunity and care for other members of our community.





User said:


> You're right. Triple Vac was DTP. MMR was introduced in 1972...


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## StuartG (12 Jan 2015)

mickle said:


> So is this just a pile of BS then?
> www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2012/07/05/herd-immunity-the-flawed-science-and-failures-of-mass-vaccination-suzanne-humphries-md-3/


I don't want to be rude but what worries me most is your need to ask the question. You shouldn't need quackwatch sites to 'disprove'. Just read what it says with a questioning mind. What is the proposition? What is the evidence? Does the evidence match the proposition? Is the writer unbiased? Does the writer critique her own work? Is it an opinion piece or published/peer reviewed science?

The answers should tell you the answer. If not, I doubt anything else will.



Cunobelin said:


> One of the difficulties quoted by the only Muslim ladies cycling club (Cycle Fit at the Jagonari centre in Whitechapel road) in in the UK is the disapproval of the women cycling by the community


It wasn't that long ago that good upstanding Christian men were appalled by rational dress. My cycling club banned women for the first 85 years of its existence. No one has a monopoly on misogyny. It just we have to re-fight some of the battles we thought we had already won and remember how it was done. And be careful of appearing too self-righteous.


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## albion (31 Jan 2015)

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/31/us/vaccine-critics-turn-defensive-over-measles.html

Outbreaks from the once measles free US are getting so bad they are now having to temporarily ban non vaccinated children from school.
I also saw advice is also to avoid visiting Disneyland with younger children. Disneyland is California where vaccination is not 'alternative' cool.
And listening to an interview on (I think Radio 4) with a Californian, the interviewee was suspiciously busy trying to sell her healing therapies (Crystal rock no doubt) 


What I also find interesting is that we often report 'superstition' as a problem elsewhere but do not use the word to refer to the supposed educated west. 
In fact maybe the vote could arguably be 'superstition is nuts', 'superstitions matter'.


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