# Two-wheeled trolls...



## Citius (15 Dec 2015)

http://www.getreading.co.uk/news/reading-berkshire-news/watch-cyclist-taken-out-reading-10597365 

I'm beginning to think the commentators on this article have a point...


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## Hip Priest (15 Dec 2015)

The bus was already overtaking the parked cars so I'd have slowed and allowed it through. That sort of thing happens daily on my commute. Got to have a bit of give-and-take on the roads.


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## raleighnut (15 Dec 2015)

Might be better for the cyclist to have spent some money on decent lights rather than a helmet cam and airzound.


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## MichaelW2 (15 Dec 2015)

On my regular commute I met the same bus drivers every day. It pays to develop a good working relationship with them, and in my experience, they recognize and respect "professional" cycling. This means asserting your place where appropriate or yeilding where appropriate. In my book, the situation in the video was the wrong place to assert.
Maybe bus drivers elsewhere don't respect cyclists, but here, they do.


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## PhilDawson8270 (15 Dec 2015)

Cyclist should get given the same amount of room as a car.

If I was in a car where he was cycling. I'd have gave way to the bus.


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## Tin Pot (15 Dec 2015)

Citius said:


> http://www.getreading.co.uk/news/reading-berkshire-news/watch-cyclist-taken-out-reading-10597365
> 
> I'm beginning to think the commentators on this article have a point...



JamesGeary gets three likes and three dislikes!

It might be worth bearing in mind that this polarity of opinion has been going on for a hundred years


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## Origamist (15 Dec 2015)

The parked cars were not nose to tail. There was a space for the bus driver to pull into (after the white estate), but he decided to continue overtaking in the face of oncoming traffic. The cyclist had priority and the driver did not give a XXXX.


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## jowwy (15 Dec 2015)

Having watched the video, i cant see a problem with any of it to be fair......but if you want to nit pick then

the cyclist pulled into the road and continued cycling towards the on coming bus, which was already on that side of the road due to parked cars. was there enough room for the bus driver to pul in....well there might have been. could the cyclist have stopped and waited for the driver to come through, yes. so for me they are both in the wrong. but for me also i am the governor of my own safety and if i thought there would be a chance of getting hit in this instance, i would have stopped and waited.

but then thats just me


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## winjim (15 Dec 2015)

This video should give you some idea of the cyclist's attitude. Contains swears...


Spoiler: offensive title


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## mjr (15 Dec 2015)

Comments seem disabled on

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx2I_lwGfB8


I agree with @User9609 - bus driver completely in the wrong, but cyclist could have avoided it better (and then reported the nobber to the local traffic commissioner - but there's enough scary youtube hits for Reading buses to make me doubt that one does much).


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## glenn forger (15 Dec 2015)

In the clip is was mostly the bus driver's fault. Arguments about priority aside you don't simply drive at people on the wrong side of the road. In the other clips the rider is a complete muppet, if peds are crossing the road they have priority, why on earth is he yelling and screaming and swearing?


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## GrumpyGregry (15 Dec 2015)

Trolls are always out in abundance between Lussi Night and Yule. Tis the season to be Trolley falla la la la la la la laaaa.


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## TheJDog (15 Dec 2015)

The one with the pedestrian is a funny one because he walked out then turned around and started walking back, not once glancing where traffic would have been coming from. You'll never lose underestimating the stupidity of the general public.


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## glenn forger (15 Dec 2015)

And the rider had the entire width of his lane to use. The collision wasn't inevitable and could have been avoided.


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## sidevalve (15 Dec 2015)

'Ohh look at me I'm a cyclist - everybody has to give way to me'.... grow up and stop looking for reasons to justify buying your helmet cam.


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## winjim (15 Dec 2015)

His riding style is not assertive enough yet at the same time overly aggressive. He needs to learn to take primary, but also to give way when appropriate.


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## Crandoggler (15 Dec 2015)

Absolutely looking for a reason to sound his horn. It's so blindingly obvious what was going to occur! So sick of seeing this pathetic dross posted on the Internet. Slow down, let the bus pass, lower your blood pressure. 

Absolute tosser.


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## MontyVeda (15 Dec 2015)

cockwomble or nobber... i really can't decide


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## totallyfixed (15 Dec 2015)

All that needed to happen here was both parties to slow down, raise a hand in acknowledgement to each other and carry on. Common sense, sadly lacking, happens to us all the time on narrow roads when a chelsea tractor come towards you at 50mph and doesn't slow down. Vulnerable road user is not a phrase they would be at all familiar with.


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## winjim (15 Dec 2015)

We've seen this guy before. Anybody remember the heron?


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## glenn forger (15 Dec 2015)

he blocked comments on the ped collision clip so i suspect loads of people were telling him he's a complete berk.


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## Cold (15 Dec 2015)

glenn forger said:


> he blocked comments on the ped collision clip so i suspect loads of people were telling him he's a complete berk.



That's because he is.


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## kiriyama (15 Dec 2015)

Living in the country with lots of narrow roads. .. I don't get what the problem is here. The bus was already coming down the road when the cyclist turned onto the road. There was plenty of room for the bus and cyclist to pass slowly without issue. the cyclist could see the bus coming, and they could see the gap. If the cyclist wasnt comfortable fitting through that gap they should have just pulled over until the bus passed. (as they would have had to do if they were in a car.)

Fed up of these cretins making us look bad!


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## winjim (15 Dec 2015)

Here we go, it's this twonk

https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/why-you-shouldnt-slap-cars.167390/


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## mr messy (15 Dec 2015)

Common sense should have prevailed....bus doesn't appear to slow down which would be automatic if a less vulnerable road user, say a car, had been there instead of a cyclist.


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## si_c (15 Dec 2015)

MontyVeda said:


> cockwomble or nobber... i really can't decide



You could go for Cocknobber or Nobwomble.


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## kiriyama (15 Dec 2015)

mr messy said:


> Common sense should have prevailed....bus doesn't appear to slow down which would be automatic if a less vulnerable road user, say a car, had been there instead of a cyclist.



looks like the bus is going very slowly to me. 

That ridiculous horn going off is the only thing likely to cause an accident here


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## bpsmith (15 Dec 2015)

If I was to carry a knife, just in case a gang attacked me, then had to act on such an attack and killed someone then it would be labelled as "premeditated" despite being attacked by a gang first.

The same goes for "Cyclists" who carry a cam and a bonkers horn, in my mind!

I use the quotes because they're a completely different breed to the rest of us. Complete nobbers to be honest!


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## jefmcg (15 Dec 2015)

Is this him?

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3nMnr8ZirI


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## glenn forger (15 Dec 2015)

I love that bloke:

"Peep!!"

*"I'm biking!!"*


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## ianrauk (15 Dec 2015)

jefmcg said:


> Is this him?
> 
> View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3nMnr8ZirI





now I normally hate these type of videos.
But for some unknown reason... this one made me chuckle.


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## Crandoggler (15 Dec 2015)

jefmcg said:


> Is this him?
> 
> View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3nMnr8ZirI



This is exactly the people who feature in these clips. Get the fark over yourselves.


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## bpsmith (15 Dec 2015)

Good clip that last one.


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## Katherine (15 Dec 2015)

PhilDawson8270 said:


> Cyclist should get given the same amount of room as a car.
> 
> If I was in a car where he was cycling. I'd have gave way to the bus.


Exactly.


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## Moon bunny (16 Dec 2015)

[QUOTE 4056787, member: 9609"]well if that is the same person then he should have his bike confiscated - he is clearly clueless.[/QUOTE]
I like his "Van driver does nothing wrong at all"

View: https://youtu.be/g3BacHer4WM


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## Bianchi boy (16 Dec 2015)

MontyVeda said:


> cockwomble or nobber... i really can't decide


 yes bus and coach drivers generally fall into one of those catagories


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## raleighnut (17 Dec 2015)

Bianchi boy said:


> yes bus and coach drivers generally fall into one of those catagories


Which is why just about everyone else would have stopped to let the bus pass Safely .


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## bpsmith (17 Dec 2015)

Ah, but the rider had a life saving camera and horn combo!

In reality, the bus was hardly that close to him and not at any speed either.


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## Levo-Lon (17 Dec 2015)

If i was on the bike id not have batted an eyelid,..
cant see a problem. In the same way people in tiny cars cant get through a gap a, well bus has just gone through

i hope the portland bloke dont have guns..


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## BEHMOTH66 (17 Dec 2015)

the cyclist has right of way as his lane is not obstructed by vehicles unlike the bus who is in the opposite lane. Now whether or not the cyclist was a bit bold is another question or was it the bus driver being a twot?


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## mickle (17 Dec 2015)

Whatever we think about the cyclist and his historical nobbery - the bus is 100% in the wrong. He had every opportunity to slow down or pull in. But decided to push on through regardless. He gambled that he'd left the cyclist 'enough' room. But squeezing the cyclist to the side like that shows an utter disregard and contempt his safety. It's every day low leverl aggression like this that makes our roads so toxic and unpleasant to ride a bike on.


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## DaveReading (17 Dec 2015)

Agreed,

If we accept the proposition that the bus was only an inch or two from the handlebars (hard to judge from the video, but certainly possible), then the driver is staking the cyclist's life on the former's ability to drive the bus with an extraordinary degree of precision.


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## bpsmith (17 Dec 2015)

Rights of way only apply when starting a manoeuvre surely. The bus started passing the cars before or, arguably at the same time, as the cyclist deliberately accelerated to make a point. 50 : 50 for me tbh.

Much like guving way to the right at a roundabout, if you are there first then you have the right to pull out. You don't wait forever in case someone comes?

We SHARE the roads people!


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## Milkfloat (17 Dec 2015)

Moon bunny said:


> I like his "Van driver does nothing wrong at all"



He is parked on the pavement, stopping me cycling on it.






Oh, you mean the other van


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## Origamist (17 Dec 2015)

bpsmith said:


> Ah, but the rider had a life saving camera and horn combo!
> 
> In reality, the bus was hardly that close to him and not at any speed either.



The bus was way too close and heavy vehicles even at lower speeds often lead to KSIs with vulnerable road users if there is a collision.


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## mjr (17 Dec 2015)

bpsmith said:


> Rights of way only apply when starting a manoeuvre surely. The bus started passing the cars before or, arguably at the same time, as the cyclist deliberately accelerated to make a point. 50 : 50 for me tbh.


No. The bus had passed one group of cars but should have waited in the next gap for the road to be clear before pulling back out to pass the single car where it met the cyclist. The cyclist could have avoided it, but that doesn't make it right 



> We SHARE the roads people!


And that attitude is why we hate the expression "share the road". We cannot both occupy the same piece of road at the same time!


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## winjim (17 Dec 2015)

mickle said:


> Whatever we think about the cyclist and his historical nobbery - the bus is 100% in the wrong. He had every opportunity to slow down or pull in. But decided to push on through regardless. He gambled that he'd left the cyclist 'enough' room. But squeezing the cyclist to the side like that shows an utter disregard and contempt his safety. It's every day low leverl aggression like this that makes our roads so toxic and unpleasant to ride a bike on.


The actions of the bus driver may or may not have been wrong, but they were entirely predictable. The cyclist was playing chicken to make a point, a point which is undermined by his own actions in several of his other videos. The bus driver may or may not be contributing to unpleasantness on the roads, but the cyclist is certainly perpetuating the image of cyclists as self righteous self entitled nobbers, which doesn't help the situation.


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## raleighnut (17 Dec 2015)

winjim said:


> The actions of the bus driver may or may not have been wrong, but they were entirely predictable. The cyclist was playing chicken to make a point, a point which is undermined by his own actions in several of his other videos. The bus driver may or may not be contributing to unpleasantness on the roads, but the cyclist is certainly perpetuating the image of cyclists as self righteous self entitled nobbers, which doesn't help the situation.


Wot e said.


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## summerdays (17 Dec 2015)

The bus driver was already overtaking cars, and yes there was a space but not huge in terms of a bus, so I think the bus should have continued but reduced his speed so that he was going slower as he passed. However if I'd have been the cyclist I'd have definitely waited for the bus and been quite happy to do so - it's nice to have a bit of give and take and recognise the problems of another road user.


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## Origamist (17 Dec 2015)

Jeez, you could get a bus into that space...


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## mickle (17 Dec 2015)

winjim said:


> The actions of the bus driver may or may not have been wrong, but they were entirely predictable. The cyclist was playing chicken to make a point, a point which is undermined by his own actions in several of his other videos. The bus driver may or may not be contributing to unpleasantness on the roads, but the cyclist is certainly perpetuating the image of cyclists as self righteous self entitled nobbers, which doesn't help the situation.



Forget about his other videos for a minute. The actions of the bus driver _were_ wrong. Wrong behaviour doesn't become right as a consequence of it being predictable. The cyclist was proceeding along the road and had priority. The bus driver should have ceded priority to the cyclist by slowing and or pulling in to the large visible gap in the row of parked cars. At what point are we expected to jump into a frickin hedge when some twunt is bearing down on us? 20ft? 10ft? 5? The cyclist held his ground, just as I would have, because if we all jump out of the way when drivers deliberately try to intimidate us off the road we might as well hang up our wheels right now. Because a cyclist cannot 'play chicken' witha frickin bus.The bus driver _is_ contributing to a general culture of unpleasantness and antipathy towards cyclists on the roads. And frankly, the concept of 'perpetuating the image of cyclists as self-entitled nobbers' is bunk.


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## winjim (17 Dec 2015)

mickle said:


> Forget about his other videos for a minute. The actions of the bus driver _were_ wrong. Wrong behaviour doesn't become right as a consequence of it being predictable. The cyclist was proceeding along the road and had priority. The bus driver should have ceded priority to the cyclist by slowing and or pulling in to the large visible gap in the row of parked cars. At what point are we expected to jump into a frickin hedge when some twunt is bearing down on us? 20ft? 10ft? 5? The cyclist held his ground, just as I would have, because if we all jump out of the way when drivers deliberately try to intimidate us off the road we might as well hang up our wheels right now. Because a cyclist cannot 'play chicken' witha frickin bus.The bus driver _is_ contributing to a general culture of unpleasantness and antipathy towards cyclists on the roads. And frankly, the concept of 'perpetuating the image of cyclists as self-entitled nobbers' is bunk.


If the bus driver has done anything wrong then hopefully that will be addressed by his employers who have the footage. What do you claim is bunk? That some see cyclists as nobbers, or that the actions of this cyclist help to perpetuate this image?


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## mickle (17 Dec 2015)

winjim said:


> If the bus driver has done anything wrong then hopefully that will be addressed by his employers who have the footage. What do you claim is bunk? That some see cyclists as nobbers, or that the actions of this cyclist help to perpetuate this image?



That the actions of some cyclists can be considered to reflect badly on all cyclists. We don't apply this bizarre attitude to drivers, or black people, women... why cyclists? Who are these 'self righteous self entitled' cyclists of which you speak? I'm not sure i've ever met one, or seen one. Do you read the Daily Mail?


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## raleighnut (17 Dec 2015)

User said:


> Why? It's daylight...


Streetlights are just coming on and every vehicle has its headlamps on, I'd have my lights on.


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## winjim (17 Dec 2015)

mickle said:


> That the actions of some cyclists can be considered to reflect badly on all cyclists. We don't apply this bizarre attitude to drivers, or black people, women... why cyclists? Who are these 'self righteous self entitled' cyclists of which you speak? I'm not sure i've ever met one, or seen one. Do you read the Daily Mail?


Please don't mistake my acknowledgement of an opinion as an endorsement. Some cyclists are nobbers. Some people extrapolate this and think that all cyclists are nobbers. The cyclist in the video has uploaded footage of himself behaving like a nobber, which may reinforce that prejudice.

ETA: Some people do apply this thinking to black folk, or women. These people are dickheads.


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## mjr (17 Dec 2015)

[QUOTE 4060515, member: 45"]He did say that he had a superbright front light on. I don't see any evidence of this in the clip.[/QUOTE]
Helmet cameras seem notoriously bad at showing light that's reflected back, rather than emitted light from other vehicle headlights. This isn't the first clip on here to demonstrate it.


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## raleighnut (17 Dec 2015)

User said:


> Streetlights were coming on? You sure...
> 
> Some were, some weren't. Doesn't mean he needs lights. Doesn't mean the bus driver wasn't a nobber.
> 
> As it is I think the cyclist is a bit of a nobber but that doesn't in any way excuse the bus driver.


I'm not saying it does excuse the bus driver (who is clearly a winker) but when you are banging on the pearly gates it isn't any use telling St Peter "but I had the right of way" now is it.
Maybe you disagree but I for one wouldn't argue with a bus, I would have sent a copy of the footage (if I could be arsed to buy a camera) to the company but to post it on t'internet when it is clearly 2 dickheads having a non-event.


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## Drago (17 Dec 2015)

I have in the past stood there, watch paramedics treat a cyclist with his chin bone sticking put his knee, and then listened to him shout at me "it was my right of way" as the meatwagon doors closed as if that will somehow help him walk again.

Mickle is right, people shouldn't judge whole swathes of society by the actions off few. Unfortunately, life isn't perfect and cyclists in particular at under more scrutiny in the media etc than car drivers. One bellend cyclist does our cause far, far more harm than one nobwad car driver does.


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## bpsmith (18 Dec 2015)

Just watched the video again. Still can't see how this is newsworthy.

Cyclist doesn't need to change position on the road. Wasn't that close a call, otherwise he wouldn't have risked taking one hand off the bars to sound that ridiculous horn.


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## Bollo (18 Dec 2015)

Drago said:


> I have in the past stood there, watch paramedics treat a cyclist with his _*chin *_bone sticking put his knee, ......






Drago said:


> ...... and then listened to him shout at me "it was my right of way" as the meatwagon doors closed as if that will somehow help him walk again.
> 
> Mickle is right, people shouldn't judge whole swathes of society by the actions off few. Unfortunately, life isn't perfect and cyclists in particular at under more scrutiny in the media etc than car drivers. One bellend cyclist does our cause far, far more harm than one nobwad car driver does.


I'm sympathetic with both sides of the argument but I long ago gave up trying to be a 'cause' (except a cause for distress on our finances when I go bike shopping). 

I'm no shrinking violet while riding and dislike bullying intensely, whether in a car or on two wheels, but I'd never get myself into a confrontation or standoff without a very clear exit available. There's no point being right and dead.


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## Lonestar (18 Dec 2015)

Drago said:


> Mickle is right, people shouldn't judge whole swathes of society by the actions off few. Unfortunately, life isn't perfect and cyclists in particular at under more scrutiny in the media etc than car drivers. One bellend cyclist does our cause far, far more harm than one nobwad car driver does.



They shouldn't but they do at my workplace.Same old same old,every time.


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## mjr (18 Dec 2015)

bpsmith said:


> Cyclist doesn't need to change position on the road. Wasn't that close a call, otherwise he wouldn't have risked taking one hand off the bars to sound that ridiculous horn.


Aren't those horns on thumb triggers?


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## bpsmith (18 Dec 2015)

mjray said:


> Aren't those horns on thumb triggers?


You clearly know more than me. Personally, I have no idea, as would not entertain one on my bike, thanks.


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## jefmcg (18 Dec 2015)

mickle said:


> We don't apply this bizarre attitude to drivers, or black people, women?


Yeah, we do, all the time. "Woman driver" used to absolutely be a term of abuse. And applying something across the board to black people is called racism. It has a name because it is something that exists.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/road-safety/11280402/Why-women-drivers-drive-me-mad.html

I remember reading Anne Frank at school, and her complaining that if a Jew did something wrong, it tarred the whole race

(I'm not certain about either _tarred_ or _race _in that sentence, but you know what I mean)


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## jefmcg (18 Dec 2015)

bpsmith said:


> You clearly know more than me. Personally, I have no idea, as would not entertain one on my bike, thanks.


I had an airzounds on my bike briefly decades ago. I found that in an emergency situation, I focused much more avoiding danger than operating the horn, so only used it in not-quite-emergency situations, or after the immediate danger had passed - in both cases to "punish" the driver. The only effect I could be sure it had was raising my adrenaline levels. I got rid of it pretty quickly.

Might have felt differently if I didn't have a very loud shout.


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## bpsmith (18 Dec 2015)

jefmcg said:


> I had an airzounds on my bike briefly decades ago. I found that in an emergency situation, I focused much more avoiding danger than operating the horn, so only used it in not-quite-emergency situations, or after the immediate danger had passed - in both cases to "punish" the driver. The only effect I could be sure it had was raising my adrenaline levels. I got rid of it pretty quickly.
> 
> Might have felt differently if I didn't have a very loud shout.


Exactly how I would be. Not why I choose to cycle. I tend to cycle to lower the stress levels, not raise it by holding my thumb on a horn deafening only myself.


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## winjim (18 Dec 2015)

jefmcg said:


> Yeah, we do, all the time. "Woman driver" used to absolutely be a term of abuse. And applying something across the board to black people is called racism. It has a name because it is something that exists.
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/road-safety/11280402/Why-women-drivers-drive-me-mad.html
> 
> ...


What a peculiar article. I can only assume it was considered acceptable for publication because the author is a woman.


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## jefmcg (18 Dec 2015)

winjim said:


> What a peculiar article. I can only assume it was considered acceptable for publication because the author is a woman.


Oh god, you didn't actually read the article did you? I'm sorry, I skimmed the first line - I would never read it or suggest someone else should.

Remember that's newspaper that puts cycling articles under .../men/recreational-cycling


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## winjim (18 Dec 2015)

jefmcg said:


> Oh god, you didn't actually read the article did you? I'm sorry, I skimmed the first line - I would never read it or suggest someone else should.
> 
> Remember that's newspaper that puts cycling articles under .../men/recreational-cycling


It's worth a read, if only for its strangely awful weirdness.


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## Drago (18 Dec 2015)

Bollo said:


>


It was one Helluva smack!


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## mjr (18 Dec 2015)

bpsmith said:


> You clearly know more than me. Personally, I have no idea, as would not entertain one on my bike, thanks.


I considered getting one a while ago. On rural A roads and on some London streets, there are some motorists who seem not to hear bells, see lights or for that matter an angry six-foot-ish guy on a bike. I decided they probably wouldn't react to anything less than the apocalypse, so the horn would just be a waste of effort refilling it all the while.


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## BEHMOTH66 (21 Dec 2015)

raleighnut said:


> I'm not saying it does excuse the bus driver (who is clearly a winker) but when you are banging on the pearly gates it isn't any use telling St Peter "but I had the right of way" now is it.
> Maybe you disagree but I for one wouldn't argue with a bus, I would have sent a copy of the footage (if I could be arsed to buy a camera) to the company but to post it on t'internet when it is clearly 2 dickheads having a non-event.



You are wrong if we all had to take up this subservient attitude when riding we wouldn't get 50 yards without walking our bike the rest of the way to our destination.


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## raleighnut (21 Dec 2015)

BEHMOTH66 said:


> You are wrong if we all had to take up this subservient attitude when riding we wouldn't get 50 yards without walking our bike the rest of the way to our destination.


I've managed to get wherever I want by Bicycle for the last 50 years, still I suppose that having no other form of transport (through choice) means I just get on with it.


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## summerdays (21 Dec 2015)

BEHMOTH66 said:


> You are wrong if we all had to take up this subservient attitude when riding we wouldn't get 50 yards without walking our bike the rest of the way to our destination.


There is a huge difference between being subservient and being polite, I've stood my ground plenty of times and not let drivers walk all over me, but allowing a large vehicle to get along a parked up road which is probably a pain to go along each day multiple times, I don't see the problem with it. I get lots of drivers helping me when I'm out on the bike and I like to return that favour. Those who never help another road user create a more hostile environment to cycle and drive in.


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## mjr (21 Dec 2015)

summerdays said:


> ...but allowing a large vehicle to get along a parked up road which is probably a pain to go along each day multiple times, I don't see the problem with it.


If it's that much of a pain to drive a bus along while obeying the highway code, either the parking should be restricted or the bus rerouted, but it's not really for people on bikes to do the bus company's job of talking with the council or traffic commissioner.


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## summerdays (21 Dec 2015)

mjray said:


> If it's that much of a pain to drive a bus along while obeying the highway code, either the parking should be restricted or the bus rerouted, but it's not really for people on bikes to do the bus company's job of talking with the council or traffic commissioner.


Seriously? If it's a major problem the the bus company or the cyclist should be reporting it and trying to find a solution, but we can have a much more pleasant experience by occasionally thinking of others. On a typical journey I've let buses pull out from the bus stop, cars change lanes etc, and I've had someone hang back for me to move lane or encouraged me to pull out of a side road in front of them. If I'm in a good mood I'm far more likely to do it, if I get put into a bad mood by one really inconsiderate driver then I've noticed my goodwill can slip for a while, but then it's restored usually by another considerate person, even a smile can do it.

I'm not trying to do someone's job, I'm trying to help someone occasionally when it doesn't compromise my safety etc.


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## mjr (21 Dec 2015)

summerdays said:


> Seriously? If it's a major problem the the bus company or the cyclist should be reporting it and trying to find a solution, but we can have a much more pleasant experience by occasionally thinking of others.


Seriously. I agree in general, but that thought of others should not always be "is that nobber in the large vehicle going to disregard common sense (give way to a low-power vehicle coming uphill), politeness (after you) and the highway code ("give way to oncoming vehicles before passing parked vehicles or other obstructions on your side of the road") and attempt to take the small bit of road space I'm using by force?" I'm generally a happy smiley give-way type, but if I didn't successfully vary my speed so we'd pass at a gap (and it seems far from certain that the bus would have dipped into a gap), I don't see me liking a dive into the roadside trees at any point in the posted video - at what point would you?



summerdays said:


> encouraged me to pull out of a side road in front of them


That really annoys me. If they're unpredictable enough to do that, what else will they do? Floor it once I'm in their path, then claim (correctly) I'd pulled out in front of them with insufficient gap? I wish they'd drive normally, then I can make my decision on when to pull out based on probabilities and more predictable behaviour.



summerdays said:


> I'm not trying to do someone's job, I'm trying to help someone occasionally when it doesn't compromise my safety etc.


Are you? It reads a bit like you're enabling motorists who deliberately put others at risk - for example, in the Reading video, we don't know what was behind the rider and behaving unpredictably isn't usually as safe.


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## bpsmith (21 Dec 2015)

mjray said:


> If it's that much of a pain to drive a bus along while obeying the highway code, either the parking should be restricted or the bus rerouted, but it's not really for people on bikes to do the bus company's job of talking with the council or traffic commissioner.


You're seriously deluded.


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## mjr (21 Dec 2015)

bpsmith said:


> You're seriously deluded.


Yeah, wanting roads managed for reasonable safety, it's just a deluded fantasy idea...


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## martint235 (21 Dec 2015)

[QUOTE 4066192, member: 45"]




[/QUOTE]
Whatever happened to that idea? I have a bus stop near my house where the road immediately goes through a pinch point in front of my house. The number of cars that not only won't let the bus pull away from the stop but that will actually lean on their horns when the bus driver gets fed up and pulls forwards is amazing.


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## bpsmith (21 Dec 2015)

mjray said:


> Yeah, wanting roads managed for reasonable safety, it's just a deluded fantasy idea...


No, that's what they call a perfect world. One which we would all like, ideally, but reality clearly shows us otherwise.

Back in the real world, the incident in question, isn't really an incident. Bus came through. Cyclist passed without being forced to do anything or change path. The rest of the world carried on about their day, rider included. Just another day on our roads.

The attitude of the rider is all that is in question here.


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## summerdays (21 Dec 2015)

mjray said:


> Seriously. I agree in general, but that thought of others should not always be "is that nobber in the large vehicle going to disregard common sense (give way to a low-power vehicle coming uphill), politeness (after you) and the highway code ("give way to oncoming vehicles before passing parked vehicles or other obstructions on your side of the road") and attempt to take the small bit of road space I'm using by force?" I'm generally a happy smiley give-way type, but if I didn't successfully vary my speed so we'd pass at a gap (and it seems far from certain that the bus would have dipped into a gap), I don't see me liking a dive into the roadside trees at any point in the posted video - at what point would you?
> 
> 
> That really annoys me. If they're unpredictable enough to do that, what else will they do? Floor it once I'm in their path, then claim (correctly) I'd pulled out in front of them with insufficient gap? I wish they'd drive normally, then I can make my decision on when to pull out based on probabilities and more predictable behaviour.
> ...


If it helps you to know that I'm not above complaining, I'm still trying to find out about my bus interaction where I was forced to change lanes last week, so I'm not above complaining where I see the need to.

You are very suspicious if you think someone who invites you into a gap in traffic is unpredictable and about to floor it (apart from anything the fact the are going slow enough to let me out says they are unlikely to floor it). If I'm not happy with the gap, I'll wave them on with a smile to say thanks anyway.

We don't know what is behind the cyclist, but they should also be looking ahead and seeing the bus, it's more likely there isn't anything else the bus wouldn't go, or the thing behind is definitely going to have to hang back for the bus assuming it is larger.


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## mjr (21 Dec 2015)

[QUOTE 4066192, member: 45"]



[/QUOTE]
Makes a nice change from around here, where Norfolk Green (now Stagecoach in Norfolk) have only "no entry to cyclists" signs on the back.


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## mjr (21 Dec 2015)

bpsmith said:


> The attitude of the rider is all that is in question here.


So, in your opinion, the bus driver's actions are not in question and the rider should be happy to have an inch clearance between his handlebar and the bus?

If so, it's little wonder that 39% of people think the roads are too dangerous for them to cycle on (Mintel Bicycles in the UK 2010).


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## bpsmith (21 Dec 2015)

It's arguable whether the bus was already passing the parked cars when the cyclist deliberately continued, just to prove a point. An inch clearance? Hardly.

I think that opinions, like your own, are what make up said 39% of that 5 year old report. The 2013 report shows this to be 32%, which equates to twice as many people thinking the roads are safe to ride on vs not safe to do so. Using your report as a guide, on the basis that this is a 7% drop in 3 years, then the roads must be getting safer. When the report is created for 2016, this could be down to 25% if opinion is linear.

Just proof that statistics can be used however you like when it comes to arguing the toss over things.

EDIT: Interestingly, people who don't cycle regularly have a 39% higher mortality rate.


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## Milkfloat (21 Dec 2015)

mjray said:


> Makes a nice change from around here, where Norfolk Green (now Stagecoach in Norfolk) have only "no entry to cyclists" signs on the back.



Seeing as we are a left hand drive country and the sticker looks like it depicts the front of a bus, then surely it says that buses must not overtake cycles?


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## BEHMOTH66 (21 Dec 2015)

[QUOTE 4066192, member: 45"]



[/QUOTE]
this is a request not a rule of the road


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## DaveReading (21 Dec 2015)

Milkfloat said:


> Seeing as we are a left hand drive country and the sticker looks like it depicts the front of a bus, then surely it says that buses must not overtake cycles?



No, it's meant to denote the back of a bus with a rear view of a cyclist overtaking it on the offside:






That, and the "Pass with Care", seem pretty reasonable advice to me.


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## BEHMOTH66 (21 Dec 2015)

maybe I should put a sign on my back do not pass within 3 feet on my right, do you think motorist would take a blind bit of notice?


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## martint235 (21 Dec 2015)

BEHMOTH66 said:


> maybe I should put a sign on my back do not pass within 3 feet on my right, do you think motorist would take a blind bit of notice?


Some would. Some wouldn't. Same as the bus sign really. Fail to see your point.


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## mjr (21 Dec 2015)

DaveReading said:


> No, it's meant to denote the back of a bus with a rear view of a cyclist overtaking it on the offside:


If it's a rear view, why are half the lights white?

EDIT: ho ho ho and the image was from a "Safety Tip" from our colleagues at CCNB who seem to have wandered off-message the last few years, supporting the Turbogate misuse of cycling safety budget for a motoring project and no longer answering emails from volunteers at other cycle campaigns. Their last Turbogate update on http://www.ccnb.org.uk/infrastructureb.html seems to have been 2015. I wonder why.



> That, and the "Pass with Care", seem pretty reasonable advice to me.


Why's the advice written so small that I've never noticed it before? Although, to be fair, when one of these leviathans is throwing its weight around, I'm usually more concerned about whether it's going to leave me any road to ride on than about reading all its adverts and signs in full.

And the pictogram (which I thought was telling cyclists to ride past and not attempt to board) can get bent because if there's a cycle track on the left, as there often is here, then I'm passing on the left rather than bumping over a kerb and crossing into oncoming traffic, no matter what a badly-designed sticker says.


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## mjr (21 Dec 2015)

BEHMOTH66 said:


> maybe I should put a sign on my back do not pass within 3 feet on my right, do you think motorist would take a blind bit of notice?


I had a car version of this too, but I can't find it now:


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## mjr (21 Dec 2015)

bpsmith said:


> It's arguable whether the bus was already passing the parked cars when the cyclist deliberately continued, just to prove a point. An inch clearance? Hardly.


[QUOTE 4066371, member: 45"]It was more than an inch clearance. You can see it was, and this bloke lies.[/QUOTE]

OK, so how much clearance do others think there was? How steep would the incline need to be for it to be unreasonable for the uphill cyclist to have to stop?



bpsmith said:


> I think that opinions, like your own, are what make up said 39% of that 5 year old report.


In case it wasn't already clear, I ride on the roads, so I would be part of the 61%. Thanks for the pointer to the 2013 figure, but please refrain from attributing opinions to others incorrectly.


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## BEHMOTH66 (21 Dec 2015)

martint235 said:


> Some would. Some wouldn't. Same as the bus sign really. Fail to see your point.


because people are quoting signs on busses or HGV's they think it is the law and if I have a sign on my back doesn't make it a law either, I'd probably get a lot more agro if I have this sign showing


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## martint235 (21 Dec 2015)

BEHMOTH66 said:


> because people are quoting signs on busses or HGV's they think it is the law and if I have a sign on my back doesn't make it a law either, I'd probably get a lot more agro if I have this sign showing


Who thinks it's the law? And since when did the law come with "Please"?

There's all kinds of stickers on buses and HGVs. I tend to ignore most of them.


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## mjr (21 Dec 2015)

BEHMOTH66 said:


> because people are quoting signs on busses or HGV's they think it is the law and if I have a sign on my back doesn't make it a law either, I'd probably get a lot more agro if I have this sign showing


Yes, I got a lot of aggro when I used that sign in London. Mind you, hundreds of us were blocking Blackfriars Bridge at the time...


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## martint235 (21 Dec 2015)

[QUOTE 4066472, member: 45"]I've already given my view. The bus didn't barge past, there was plenty of room. The cyclist was travelling slowly anyway so it would have caused him no trouble to move closer to the side, drop his left leg and let the bus past. But no, this angry man has to exaggerate, blast his horn and post another victim clip on YouTube. Right next to the one where he falls off his bike because he slaps a passing car and unbalances himself, then blames the driver for his own stupidity.[/QUOTE]
Hmmmm, you do know that nothing, absolutely nothing, is allowed to impede a cyclist from travelling at whatever speed he/she chooses in whatever position because we are special.


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## glenn forger (21 Dec 2015)




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## glenn forger (21 Dec 2015)




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## DaveReading (21 Dec 2015)

mjray said:


> If it's a rear view, why are half the lights white?



Don't ask me.

If the picture was meant to denote a bus coming towards you, advice on the correct way to overtake it would be pretty superfluous.


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## winjim (21 Dec 2015)

mjray said:


> If it's a rear view, why are half the lights white?





DaveReading said:


> Don't ask me.
> 
> If the picture was meant to denote a bus coming towards you, advice on the correct way to overtake it would be pretty superfluous.


The indicators on one side are lit, denoting that the vehicle is turning left. The advice is therefore not _don't ever ride up the nearside of a bus, _but rather _don't ride up the nearside of a *left-turning* bus*. *_


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## mjr (21 Dec 2015)

[QUOTE 4066472, member: 45"]I've already given my view. The bus didn't barge past, there was plenty of room.[/QUOTE]
Wonderfully vague. The most precise I see earlier is "more than an inch". How much more? Metric or imperial, as you please.

[QUOTE 4066472, member: 45"]The cyclist was travelling slowly anyway so it would have caused him no trouble to move closer to the side, drop his left leg and let the bus past.[/QUOTE]
So how fast would he have to be travelling up that slope before you consider that the cyclist should be rewarded with the normal priority? Would you have "no trouble" starting off again if you were forced to stop in the wide bit at the bottom of Monk's Steps between Worlebury and Kewstoke, because you'd be going pretty slowly?


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## mjr (21 Dec 2015)

DaveReading said:


> If the picture was meant to denote a bus coming towards you, advice on the correct way to overtake it would be pretty superfluous.


If they want us to overtake on the right when appropriate (when you normally would), then putting a sign saying "CYCLISTS" which can be read when nothing else can be on the _left_ of the bus seems a bit stupid... which is why I thought it was simply an announcement of their notorious no-bikes-not-even-folders policy and didn't look closely enough.



winjim said:


> The indicators on one side are lit, denoting that the vehicle is turning left. The advice is therefore not _don't ever ride up the nearside of a bus, _but rather _don't ride up the nearside of a *left-turning* bus*. *_


The lights are red and white, so isn't that stopped but in reverse gear? It can't be night because the cycle has no lights. So it's not to ride up the left of a stopped bus?


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## mjr (21 Dec 2015)

[QUOTE 4066608, member: 45"]Dunno what you're being arsey for. Both the driver and the cyclist could have given way, and both ought to have.[/QUOTE]
I sort-of agree but I dunno what you're being arsey for - don't you like being asked to quantify how much space you think he had and when cyclists shouldn't be expected to give way more than motorists?


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## winjim (21 Dec 2015)

mjray said:


> The lights are red and white, so isn't that stopped but in reverse gear? It can't be night because the cycle has no lights. So it's not to ride up the left of a stopped bus?


Really? I can't tell if you're just being contrary.


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## bpsmith (21 Dec 2015)

mjray said:


> In case it wasn't already clear, I ride on the roads, so I would be part of the 61%. Thanks for the pointer to the 2013 figure, but please refrain from attributing opinions to others incorrectly.


Did the study actually say that the 39% don't actually cycle on the road then? Or did it say that they Think it's dangerous?


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## mjr (21 Dec 2015)

bpsmith said:


> Did the study actually say that the 39% don't actually cycle on the road then? Or did it say that they Think it's dangerous?


That they don't, as far as I know. I've not bought the full report.


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## bpsmith (21 Dec 2015)

mjray said:


> That they don't, as far as I know. I've not bought the full report.


Exactly. Can assume anything you like from that. Knowing the context of the questions would mean a lot more.

I would state that I think the roads are dangerous for cyclists. I would say the same for drivers and pedestrians. It wouldn't stop me being any of them or using said roads though.


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## Drago (21 Dec 2015)

The roads are utterly benign. It's the fools that use them that present the danger.


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## classic33 (22 Dec 2015)

mjray said:


> If they want us to overtake on the right when appropriate (when you normally would), then putting a sign saying "CYCLISTS" which can be read when nothing else can be on the _left_ of the bus seems a bit stupid... which is why I thought it was simply an announcement of their notorious no-bikes-not-even-folders policy and didn't look closely enough.
> 
> 
> The lights are red and white, so isn't that stopped but in reverse gear? It can't be night because the cycle has no lights. So it's not to ride up the left of a stopped bus?


Aren't most lenses now clear with the colour coming from the lighting source within?
Most bus companies now have daylight running lights in use on their vehicles. The six local ones do, which would explain the rear lights being on.


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## classic33 (22 Dec 2015)

mjray said:


> Makes a nice change from around here, where Norfolk Green (now Stagecoach in Norfolk) have only "no entry to cyclists" signs on the back.


Why a stock photo, that's over a year old, if its that common?
Stagecoach Norfolk Green
Location: Kings Lynn Bus Stn
Route: on North Wootton Three (2)
Fleet Number: 25119 
Registration Number:YJ55BKO, 'Chris & George Rockingham' 

Taken on September 19, 2014
Camera: Canon PowerShot SX170 IS
ISO: 400, ƒ/3.5 @1/1000


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## classic33 (22 Dec 2015)

mjray said:


> If it's a rear view, why are half the lights white?


Just so you're aware of what the front end of that particular bus looks like.


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## BEHMOTH66 (22 Dec 2015)

ok lets put this simply who was in the wrong?? all saying about bad attitude. did the bus driver have a bad attitude? was the bus driver on the wrong side of the road? so who was wrong ??? yes cyclist was stubborn but he had every right by the letter of the law to take primary as this was his right. The bus driver thought its only a cyclist I'm bigger and faster and if I hit him I will maybe scratch a vehicle that is not even mine. *The bus driver was using 38 tonnes of metal to intimidate*. I know people may not like the guy who posted it but come on if we stopped for every car that wanted to get past us would we even ride in an urban area ever again?

Yes the cyclist was going up a small hill but that's the last place you want to stop. If this was half the cyclist on here you'd all do the same thing, just because you don't like this cyclist(and you've added other videos of him ect) you slate the guy


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## summerdays (22 Dec 2015)

The cyclist doesn't seem to swing quickly in the direction of the kerb which is what I would do if I thought it was very close, and if they wanted the bus to wait then they could have been in a better road position to make sure there wasn't a bus sized gap beside him.

Neither side is "right", they both could have done more to have had a better pass. 

I've said if it was me I would probably slow down, and let the bus pass, he was already overtaking cars, but if I decided to go then I would have been further out in the road.


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## bpsmith (22 Dec 2015)

I haven't seen any of his other videos. I still think he is a nobber!

Bus was over the broken white line. No law broken there. He was passing before the cyclist was there. He therefore had primary at that point. Cyclist didn't give way either and blasted ridiculous horn. Driver doesn't appear to have reacted. I have no doubt that the driver would have done the same if a car was approaching. Would you post that on YouTube?

Neither party was really in the wrong. That's the point. It's a non starter. This is what the real world like to call "life".


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## BEHMOTH66 (22 Dec 2015)

*A broken white line.* This marks the centre of the road. When this line lengthens and the gaps shorten, it means that there is a hazard ahead. Do not cross it unless you can see the road is clear and wish to overtake or turn off.

so from the highway code do not cross it unless you can see the road ahead is clear ...which it is not


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## summerdays (22 Dec 2015)

BEHMOTH66 said:


> *A broken white line.* This marks the centre of the road. When this line lengthens and the gaps shorten, it means that there is a hazard ahead. Do not cross it unless you can see the road is clear and wish to overtake or turn off.
> 
> so from the highway code do not cross it unless you can see the road ahead is clear ...which it is not


It was when he started to move around the parked cars, he was already in that position as the cyclist turned into the road...


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## Tin Pot (22 Dec 2015)

Is this thread still going?

It's a non-event. Clearly. Kick up a fuss about the million other events that are actually dangerous. If you harp on about these minutiae people will stop listening.


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## winjim (22 Dec 2015)

BEHMOTH66 said:


> yes cyclist was stubborn but he had every right by the letter of the law to take primary as this was his right.


The cyclist wasn't in primary. If he had been, maybe the bus driver would have stopped for him. As it was, the cyclist was in secondary, which the bus driver may have taken as an indication that he was happy to be passed.

The cyclist has lousy road position, in this and other videos.


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## martint235 (22 Dec 2015)

summerdays said:


> The cyclist doesn't seem to swing quickly in the direction of the kerb which is what I would do if I thought it was very close, and if they wanted the bus to wait then they could have been in a better road position to make sure there wasn't a bus sized gap beside him.
> 
> Neither side is "right", they both could have done more to have had a better pass.
> 
> I've said if it was me I would probably slow down, and let the bus pass, he was already overtaking cars, but if I decided to go then I would have been further out in the road.


This. Neither side is right but the bus is already in position when the cyclist enters the road. Yes I would have done things differently, I'd have waited. It wouldn't have taken up too much of my day. I wouldn't have had a video to share with the the world of me being "bullied" though. 

As I believe someone said upthread, if you put yourself into confrontation with larger vehicles in that way one day you'll wake up in a hospital bed saying to your worried loved ones "but I was RIGHT!"


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## Justinslow (22 Dec 2015)

BEHMOTH66 said:


> *The bus driver was using 38 tonnes of metal to intimidate*.


That's a rather heavy bus 

I think he/she was just being a bus driver.
If I'm out either on my motorcycle or car or van and see a large vehicle coming the other way I'll give them room or even stop, particularly if the other vehicle is traveling up a hill as its better for them to keep going than having to stop on a hill regardless of who has priority, If I'm on my bike I'll still do the same, just because you're "thin" doesn't stop you being courteous, you might find a few more drivers being courteous in return.


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## Drago (22 Dec 2015)

A 38 tonne bus wouldn't be able to carry many passengers.


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## mjr (22 Dec 2015)

classic33 said:


> Why a stock photo, that's over a year old, if its that common?


It's just a photo I found by searching - for "Norfolk green bus back" I think. I don't have a library of photos of the backs of buses. Do you?

As to all the people saying the bus was already passing parked cars: there looks like a bus-sized gap before the van where the bus and cyclist passed. It should have pulled back onto its own side and waited.


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## martint235 (22 Dec 2015)

mjray said:


> It's just a photo I found by searching - for "Norfolk green bus back" I think. I don't have a library of photos of the backs of buses. Do you?
> 
> As to all the people saying the bus was already passing parked cars: there looks like a bus-sized gap before the van where the bus and cyclist passed. It should have pulled back onto its own side and waited.


The bus can wait, the cyclist can wait. Neither does so.


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## martint235 (22 Dec 2015)

I'm going to try to sum up my feelings on this cos pretty soon I'll be called anti-cyclist again.

Argue for, campaign for, fight for the world to be how it should be but for the sake of the sky fairy ride the road as it is before you. This may mean doing some things that technically you don't have to do but it will probably also mean arriving home intact.


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## growingvegetables (22 Dec 2015)

Hard to imagine anything new to add to a thread so polarised? But ... try this.

As I ride NOW - I would probably pull in and let the bus through. Silly - but a wee recompense for the number of times bus drivers have looked out for me. Around me, it's pretty rare to see a bus pull that kind of trick.

Five years ago, it would have beern different. And that nas nothing to do with me learning manners!

THEN - I'd have looked at the livery. Arriva or Transdev colours - I'd pull in, let the bus pass; cos their drivers were consistently superb. 

First Leeds? I"d have done pretty much as this cyclist does (with a stronger position, I hope). Because in those days First still had a hard core of bullying fools. Knight of the road/cowboy - you never knew what might be driving a First bus.

To their credit, First management invested heavily in cycle awareness for their drivers - as far as letting the worst of the cowboys go. It took time - and a fair few videos like this, complaints, etc from cyclists. We we were lucky - pushing at an open door. 

Bottom line - cycling is that little bit safer and more pleasant as a result. [the exception would be out the A660 corridor - heavily used by ... not-very-clued-up students on bikes, using very poorly implemented cycle lanes; and bus drivers getting impatient]

Lads and lasses with cameras were part of that improvement. Big or small - who knows or cares? But the knee-jerk "cyclists-with-cameras-are-nobbers" in some of this thread is misplaced.


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## winjim (22 Dec 2015)

growingvegetables said:


> Hard to imagine anything new to add to a thread so polarised?


I'm not sure the thread is as polarised as it might at first appear. There are two ways of looking at the incident: what the bus driver _should_ have done, and what the cyclist _could_ have done. The two points of view don't necessarily conflict, but maybe the arguments are getting a bit muddled in places.


growingvegetables said:


> But the knee-jerk "cyclists-with-cameras-are-bobbers" in some of this thread is misplaced.


I don't think there's too much of that going on. But this particular cyclist, by his own evidence, is a danger to himself and to others, and could really do with brushing up on his roadcraft and improving his attitude. That was apparent a year ago but things don't seem to have improved.


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