# Bright flashing front bike light in daylight - why?



## Ganymede (13 Jul 2014)

Hi chums

A few times recently I've seen a cyclist around our lanes in Kent sporting a searingly bright flashing front light. The reason I take note is that he has it on during the day, in good light or even sunlight. I could understand if it was at night or in bad vis but this is high summer in daylight. I've seen him from my bike and from the car and frankly it's distracting and really painfully strong.

I've just driven from Uckfield through Tunbridge Wells and back to west Kent and saw him again at the Lamberhurst roundabout late this afternoon. We'd seen loads of cyclists all day as there was a triathlon on and they were all extremely visible without any lights on at all, so what's with this? I kinda hope it's nobody on here but if it is, I'm wondering what the rationale is - maybe he has a horrible history of being run over and is into desperate measures?


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## John the Monkey (13 Jul 2014)

Ganymede said:


> ...maybe he has a horrible history of being run over and is into desperate measures?



Bingo.

Or one of being knocked off and arguments with insurers about how visible he should have made himself.


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## Ganymede (13 Jul 2014)

John the Monkey said:


> Bingo.
> 
> Or one of being knocked off and arguments with insurers about how visible he should have made himself.


To be honest his light is so bright I could imagine a motorist making a case for being blinded!


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## Saluki (13 Jul 2014)

I have a flashing light, front and back, even in the day time. An extra bit of something for blind as bats car drivers to see. I ride on a lot of country roads and go through a lot of tree tunnels which have less light in them. If my visibility is impaired as I go into a darker area, so is a car drivers. Those little flashing lights can be seen even more easily then.


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## SatNavSaysStraightOn (13 Jul 2014)

not sure about running a front light in very bright weather in a town, but I always run my rear light on flashing irrespective of the weather. In bright sunny conditions, the shade/shadow under dense tree foliage can hide even cars and cyclists are often not very visible (IMO) so I run with the rear light on all the time (mostly rural Cheshire country lanes here). There are a couple of junctions that I will put my front light on for in the same conditions (one is nasty and cars often pull out because most traffic turns off left and under the dense tree coverage in dark shade and the fact that it is a fast downhill section, I prefer to force vehicles to see me) but it goes off again after the junction. 

That said, I too have been knocked off my bike in conditions (totally unsimilar) where I could have done nothing differently from an expert eye-witness (a police officer going on duty).


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## fossyant (13 Jul 2014)

The guy might have just bought a T6 off ebay for less than 20 squids, and does not read forums about how bright they are. These flash on full power.


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## Ganymede (13 Jul 2014)

Saluki said:


> I have a flashing light, front and back, even in the day time. An extra bit of something for blind as bats car drivers to see. I ride on a lot of country roads and go through a lot of tree tunnels which have less light in them. If my visibility is impaired as I go into a darker area, so is a car drivers. Those little flashing lights can be seen even more easily then.


I can understand a "little flashing light" in just the conditions you describe. This is like a lighthouse!


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## Ganymede (13 Jul 2014)

fossyant said:


> The guy might have just bought a T6 off ebay for less than 20 squids, and does not read forums about how bright they are. These flash on full power.


It did look like that. Eyeballs still recovering.


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## ianrauk (13 Jul 2014)

Trying to find that You Tube vid of the angry cyclist getting apoplectic at others cyclists bright lights..


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## Saluki (13 Jul 2014)

Ganymede said:


> I can understand a "little flashing light" in just the conditions you describe. This is like a lighthouse!


Do you live near the coast??


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## Ganymede (13 Jul 2014)

Saluki said:


> Do you live near the coast??


Not any more! Bad simile do you think?!


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## Saluki (13 Jul 2014)

Edited as I put the wrong post in the wrong thread


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## Dogtrousers (13 Jul 2014)

There was a cyclist with quite a bright front flashing light at about 0730 near Westerham in Kent. It was daylight, and it looked about as bright as a bike light normally gets. Can't be the one referred to in the OP as I found it neither distracting nor painful, but I did notice it.


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## shouldbeinbed (13 Jul 2014)

I'll use daytime running lights if it is a bit dull or looks like it may rain but its only usually my secondary light. Not in bright summer daylight though. 

@Ganymede they maybe don't realise how blinding it is, could be one for having a quiet word if you get near enough to advise them for everyones benefit.


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## Ganymede (13 Jul 2014)

Dogtrousers said:


> There was a cyclist with quite a bright front flashing light at about 0730 near Westerham in Kent. It was daylight, and it looked about as bright as a bike light normally gets. Can't be the one referred to in the OP as I found it neither distracting nor painful, but I did notice it.


Only painful when angled right towards me - and I wonder if I partly found it distracting because I immediately started thinking about why etc as above. It made me follow him with my eyes which is perhaps what he was after - a bit like if you see something odd about someone's vehicle or a vintage car or someone spouting oil fumes, it takes your attention. So it could be the same one but perhaps you and I have different reactions to the same thing, which, y'know, is possible


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## Ganymede (13 Jul 2014)

shouldbeinbed said:


> I'll use daytime running lights if it is a bit dull or looks like it may rain but its only usually my secondary light. Not in bright summer daylight though.
> 
> @Ganymede they maybe don't realise how blinding it is, could be one for having a quiet word if you get near enough to advise them for everyones benefit.


He goes a lot faster than me


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## shouldbeinbed (13 Jul 2014)

I know that feeling. 

Maybe carry a mirror and reflect his brilliance back at him


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## MrWill (13 Jul 2014)

You see him, that's the point. He is trying to stay safe as he is a vulnerable road user that can be killed very easily.

Low lying sun, moron drivers, distracted drivers, speeding drivers, smoking drivers all are all problems in the daytime. The chance of them seeing him are greater with the light.

Lot of people wear sunglasses too, possibly making him a little easier to miss.

Really his light is a non issue.

So has anyone got recommendations for flashing noticeable front lights for use in when the suns low?


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## numbnuts (13 Jul 2014)

> recently* I've seen a cyclist* around our lanes in Kent sporting a searingly bright flashing front light.


.........so it works then


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## Ganymede (13 Jul 2014)

numbnuts said:


> .........so it works then


Yeah but I see all the others too! C'mon chum, I already said this upthread! I actually hope it doesn't become a common thing because it seems over the top to me, is all.


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## _aD (13 Jul 2014)

Saluki said:


> I have a flashing light, front and back, even in the day time. An extra bit of something for blind as bats car drivers to see. I ride on a lot of country roads and go through a lot of tree tunnels which have less light in them.



I use my lights when I know I'll be going through tree tunnels as well. It can get surprisingly dark, and they're usually on the sort of lanes that people thunder through.


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## Ern1e (13 Jul 2014)

It's like those old Volvo's with the extra bright side lights one would ask why the hell have they got the bl**dy lights on ? Why so that you SAW the the thing ! so imo this is what the guy is attempting to do just be "SEEN"


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## Ganymede (13 Jul 2014)

_aD said:


> I use my lights when I know I'll be going through tree tunnels as well. It can get surprisingly dark, and they're usually on the sort of lanes that people thunder through.


Interestingly we went down several of these tree tunnel roads yesterday (on the way when I was riding shotgun not driving) and I noticed one cyclist - dark hair, dark clothes, dark bike - in one. He was the least visible of all the cyclists we saw and a little flashing light would have helped - I was sort of counting cyclists due to seeing the road race and did not have the burden of driving at the time, but I nearly didn't spot him in the dappled shade. However I saw several other cyclists in tree tunnels on the same trip and saw all of them perfectly easily as they had light bits on their clothing or bikes. Well well, I could ramble on but I think it's got a bit boring now so will stop. 

Thanks for all your thoughts dear people.

Happy cycling!


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## GrumpyGregry (13 Jul 2014)

MrWill said:


> You see him, that's the point. He is trying to stay safe as he is a vulnerable road user that can be killed very easily.
> 
> Low lying sun, moron drivers, distracted drivers, speeding drivers, smoking drivers all are all problems in the daytime. *The chance of them seeing him are greater with the light.*
> 
> ...


Got any evidence to support that assertion?


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## Crackle (13 Jul 2014)

Moth to a flame.


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## MrWill (13 Jul 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> Got any evidence to support that assertion?



No lol.

Pretty obvious you are less likely to blend into anything during the day, using a bright light. And are more likely to be seen.

Why things are seen:

Shape
Shadow
Silhouette
Movement
Spacing
Position
Texture
Colour
Noise
Shine

At night it's a bit different with the really bright lights, regarding blending in with other lights. And overly bright lights at night make it difficult to judge distance and speed.


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## Cubist (13 Jul 2014)

Back in the spring I was riding into work at half six. It was lovely bright morning, but I still had the XML U2 on (steady, not flashing). At an angled junction I saw a transit van. I could see the driver's head, and as he approached the junction he looked to his right. I was in primary as i always anticipate the bad sightlines at that junction, but at no point did he actually look in my direction. I knew exactly what was going to happen and sure enough he simply cruised into my path. I swerved towards my already planned escape route, braked and screamed "Nooooooooo!," which led him to do a pretty impressive emergency stop. 

As I started up again he shouted out of his window " You need f@cking hi viz you stupid c£&t. " I lifted up the bike, shone the light right in his face and told him that if he had looked in the right direction he would have seen the big pretty light. Funnily enough he didn't have an answer to that one.


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## PaulSecteur (13 Jul 2014)

I usually have some light on, even when its bright.

The reason being that if you are in an area of darkness, such as under trees or bridge you are lost to people that are still in the light area due to the amount of contrast. This is not helped by dusty windsceens after a spell of dry weather.


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## the_mikey (14 Jul 2014)

My daylight running lights on my car are brighter than my 400 lumen bike light. I have a light and I turn it on when I'm approaching busy junctions, narrow lanes, riding through areas where there is little light, there are a few tunnels around here too...


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## snorri (14 Jul 2014)

MrWill said:


> You see him, that's the point. He is trying to stay safe as he is a vulnerable road user that can be killed very easily.


 It is most unreasonable and selfish to use measures to ensure your own safety which endanger other people. He would be seen without the blinding light which is distracting and irritating other road users to the detriment of road safety in the vicinity. Unfortunately it is some innocent who is more likely to suffer rather than the culprit with the light.


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## MrWill (14 Jul 2014)

snorri said:


> It is most unreasonable and selfish to use measures to ensure your own safety which endanger other people. He would be seen without the blinding light which is distracting and irritating other road users to the detriment of road safety in the vicinity. Unfortunately it is some innocent who is more likely to suffer rather than the culprit with the light.



It is very hard to see a cyclist if you are driving into the sunset. With a light it's so much easier to spot them.

I drive HGV for a living at the moment in the evenings and it's a nightmare. Just tonight I came across a daft cow doing 50 in a 30, a car drive into the back of another car, 3 mobile users, 2 smoker drivers, a woman looking at herself in rear view mirror and swerving about and countless people driving in the cycle lanes for no reason .

Few days ago I saw someone not notice a speed camera, then slam on and end up in someones garden.

A few weeks ago I saw a driver only see a cyclist at the last second, they swerved and flipped their car.

A few months ago on a dual carriageway some lad was gassing to his gf and he just drove straight into the back of me in my car at 60.

Every single day I see things like these.

The roads are full of inconsiderate dunces, and as the most vulnerable road user you need to do everything you can to stay safe and seen.

A bright flashing light during the day does bugger all to anyone apart from show them you are there. But yeah you get the odd muppet that stares at it like a rabbit then complains it's too bright, well that really is, and has to be, their problem.

It's a non issue, if you have a good head on you.

I spend more time on the roads than most, and I appreciate the cyclists that make themselves easily seen. So I don't end up killing them and in a bit of trouble mainly lol.

But yesssssssssss you neeed to be careful regarding angles of bright lights at night. Red rears not a problem though <100 lumens.


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## Katherine (14 Jul 2014)

I also look at other cyclists when I'm a passenger in a car and I look to see how far away I see them and which part of them I see first. I've noticed that in the daytime, I always see anything white first whether it's on the bike or clothing and I see white before I see lights. Flashing lights are impossible to judge distance.


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## GrumpyGregry (14 Jul 2014)

MrWill said:


> No lol.
> 
> Pretty obvious you are less likely to blend into anything during the day, using a bright light. And are more likely to be seen.
> 
> ...


Ahh. The "pretty obvious" school of scientific investigation. 

Please go read "The Invisible Gorilla" et al. Studies suggest the likelihood of you being seen has very little to do with your own appearance and behaviour and everything to do with the expectations of the person doing the looking.

The drivers who look _and see_ will see a cyclist without blinky blinkies, but still may not drive appropriately, whilst the drivers who look but don't see won't see even if the cyclist is lit up like a Xtmas tree and dressed like a space lemon, and they certainly won't drive appropriately as a result.


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## GrumpyGregry (14 Jul 2014)

MrWill said:


> The roads are full of inconsiderate dunces, and as the most vulnerable road user you need to do everything you can to stay safe and seen.



So the responsibility for the safety of a vulnerable road user is to be transferred to them and away from the "inconsiderate dunces"? What a splendidly motor-centric mindset.

Nothing you can do is going to change the outcome if you come across one of these nobber inconsiderates who is, in effect driving blind on auto-pilot. Your own post lists plenty of example of noober drivers colliding with things. Do you really think it would have made a difference if the things were space lemon coloured and lit up like Christmas trees?


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## John the Monkey (14 Jul 2014)

MrWill said:


> You see him, that's the point. He is trying to stay safe as he is a vulnerable road user that can be killed very easily.


I think the sort of people that are going to see you, would see you lit or unlit, because they're observing the road properly, and the opposite for those that are going to SMIDSY you.

All the times I've been hit, I've been done up like 6'2" of radioactive banana, to (evidently) little effect. Most of the conspicuity stuff I do is about making possible insurance claims less of a bloody hassle, if I'm honest with myself.


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## BSRU (14 Jul 2014)

My personal anecdotal evidence is that a flashing front light has considerably reduced the number of SMIDSY's at junctions.
Will never eliminate them as too many drivers are blind or just don't look, I've seen someone pull out on a police with all lights and sirens on


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## akb (14 Jul 2014)

I get the rear flasher in the summer as there can be heavy shadows created by trees and the like during the day.


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## ufkacbln (14 Jul 2014)

shouldbeinbed said:


> I'll use daytime running lights if it is a bit dull or looks like it may rain but its only usually my secondary light. Not in bright summer daylight though.
> 
> @Ganymede they maybe don't realise how blinding it is, could be one for having a quiet word if you get near enough to advise them for everyones benefit.


My interpretation has always to look at the immediate environment.

If vehile lights are making a difference then I will put mine on, if they are not, mine stay in the panniers.


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## GrumpyGregry (14 Jul 2014)

Cunobelin said:


> My interpretation has always to look at the immediate environment.
> 
> If vehile lights are making a difference then I will put mine on, if they are not, mine stay in the panniers.


I've surrended my fate to the Germans. B + M Lumotec IQ Cyo T senso plus 60 lux left permanently in night position. Running lights up front all the time and a full beam when the sensors decide. 

Nothing to do with visibility cos the nobbers look but don't see. Everything to do with potential litigation. As per #36.


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## glasgowcyclist (14 Jul 2014)

BSRU said:


> My personal anecdotal evidence is that a flashing front light has considerably reduced the number of SMIDSY's at junctions.


 
My personal experience is the opposite: when I stopped using a flashing light (replaced by a steady) fewer drivers pulled out. I put it down to them not being able to identify me as 'only a cyclist' until it is too late.

GC


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## Katherine (14 Jul 2014)

Non-flashing lights are considerably easier to judge speed and distance.


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## Jameshopper (14 Jul 2014)

Hi all, after reading the various arguments for / against, i've come to the conclusion that a non blinding flashing light on the front cant hurt.
Having ended up in a&e after someone pulled out on me, if there's even a 1% increased chance that someone else will see me then i'll take it.
When he did pull out on me, it was a bright, clear day and i was in my yellow banana top as my missus likes to call it. 
Having said that, there will still be numpties that just dont look, regardless.


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## GrumpyGregry (14 Jul 2014)

Jameshopper said:


> Having ended up in a&e after someone pulled out on me, if there's even a 1% increased chance that someone else will see me then i'll take it.


Is there a 1% increased chance then?


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## Jameshopper (14 Jul 2014)

Yep, absolutely a minimum of 1% increased chance. I didnt have one, he didnt see me. I cant have a reduced chance of having been seen, so it must be either an increased chance or the same. That there is a 50/50 split. So, with a light, i'd have a 50% increased chance of having been seen.
Stands to reason.


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## GrumpyGregry (14 Jul 2014)

Jameshopper said:


> Yep, absolutely a minimum of 1% increased chance. I didnt have one, he didnt see me. I cant have a reduced chance of having been seen, so it must be either an increased chance or the same. That there is a 50/50 split. So, with a light, i'd have a 50% increased chance of having been seen.
> Stands to reason.


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## Smurfy (14 Jul 2014)

I had someone behind me last week on my cycle commute with a bright front light on strobe setting. I spotted him from a hundred yards back when I did a shoulder check for changing lanes. It was bad enough in broad daylight, goodness knows how awful it must be for other road users in darkness.


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## stu9000 (14 Jul 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> Got any evidence to support that assertion?


 While I agree that its good to get people to back up there assertions rather than just quote common sense, this isnt the Lancet.

Flashing lights attract the eye. Thats why they have them on Emergency vehicles, navigation boeys etc.

As the weather has got better I have paradoxically felt a bit less visible as i tootle through shaded lanes.
I did initially feel a bit of a prat putting my light on, but im not hurting anyone and Im sure I am more likely to be seen.

It amazes me the things some cyclists will take umbridge at on this forum.


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## Accy cyclist (14 Jul 2014)

I've recently seen one or two cyclists with glaring front lights on during the day. Safety conscious? I wouldn't say so as none of them were wearing high viz or helmets!


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## GrumpyGregry (15 Jul 2014)

stu9000 said:


> Flashing lights attract the eye. Thats why they have them on Emergency vehicles, navigation boeys etc.


It isn't about taking umbrage. 

This thread, like many others, is trying to impart safety advice to other cyclists. And this thread will be read by others long after we have finished posting to it. If I asserted, on the basis of anecdata and pleas to "common sense", that my St Christopher Medal makes me 1% safer I'd expect to be challenged.

People make assertions in here, over and over, like "flashing lights attract the eye, Thats (sic) why they have them on Emergency vehicles" and I'm interested in understanding the science behind those assertions, given that, for instance, flashing blue lights were introduced with, so far as I can tell, no scientific basis for their design and no consistency globally over colour choice, intensity and flash frequency. Some evidence exists that flashing lights _may_ be effective in attracting attention particularly when they are located in the periphery of vision but the results are not entirely consistent nor conclusive and very little research has been done about the use of such lights on motor vehicles and even less on bicycles.

Yet people make assertions about flashing lights improving rider safety and thousands of cyclists have started using them. Along with St Christopher's?


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## snorri (15 Jul 2014)

stu9000 said:


> Flashing lights attract the eye. Thats why they have them on Emergency vehicles, navigation boeys etc.
> It amazes me the things some cyclists will take umbridge at on this forum.


Where does it all end? Bicycles with flashing lights, cycle riders clothed like a pyschedelic vomit.


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## Dan B (15 Jul 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> People make assertions in here, over and over, like "flashing lights attract the eye, Thats (sic) why they have them on Emergency vehicles" and I'm interested in understanding the science behind those assertions


My hypothesis is that flashing blue lights on a bicycle make drivers take notice because drivers are used to looking out for police vehicles. Most people driving cars[*] will only pay attention to threats, not to other road users who they may themsleve be a threat to.

[*] probably "driving cars" is redundant here


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## GrumpyGregry (15 Jul 2014)

Dan B said:


> My hypothesis is that flashing blue lights on a bicycle make drivers take notice because drivers are used to looking out for police vehicles. Most people driving cars[*] will only pay attention to threats, not to other road users who they may themsleve be a threat to.
> 
> [*] probably "driving cars" is redundant here


My hypothesis is that drivers who look and see will see you regardless of your lights or lack thereof, and then _may_ drive accordingly, or not as some are nobbers even though they are seeing nobbers, whilst drivers who look but don't see you will drive in complete ignorance of your existence with potentially catastrophic consequences. And why they look but don't see is, at least in significant part, about threat detection and expectation.

Someother interesting themes are emerging....

And as to "I can been seen from nnn hundred metres in daylight", so what? The car driven by the look see-er isn't a threat 400m or 4m away and by the time the gap has closed to 4m the look-no-see driver, who didn't see you at 400m, will probably be re-tuning their radio or changing tracks on their CD player, lighting a fag, drinking their coffee, eating a sandwich, or scratching their balls, any of which tasks appear to be of a higher priority for many than driving with due care and attention.

"I can be seen whilst heading into the setting sun" is superficially appealing it falls flat on its face if we start to consider why it is thought necessary to defend ourselves against the moronic driver, driving towards the setting sun and being dazzled by it, driving at a speed and in a manner at odds with protecting the safety of other people.

The onus is not on cycling folk to make themselves visible to motorists in broad daylight. That leads us to victim-blaming. The onus is on drivers to slow the feck down when they can't see for any reason and to pay more attention to others when they are driving. But apparently that is an unreasonable or unrealistic expectation. As motorists appear to own the roads.


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## BSRU (15 Jul 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> "I can be seen whilst heading into the setting sun" is superficially appealing it falls flat on its face if we start to consider why it is though necessary to defend ourselves against the moronic driver, driving towards the setting sun and being dazzled by it, driving at a speed and in a manner at odds with protecting the safety of other people.



Drivers have used this excuse for getting away with killing a cyclist.


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## GrumpyGregry (15 Jul 2014)

BSRU said:


> Drivers have used this excuse for getting away with killing a cyclist.


More properly, that juries have sometimes, though not always, accepted this "excuse" shows how embedded our motor-centric view of rights and responsibilities on the road have become. That motor-centrism is what we need to challenge.


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## BSRU (15 Jul 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> More properly, that juries have sometimes, though not always, accepted this "excuse" shows how embedded our motor-centric view of rights and responsibilities on the road have become. That motor-centrism is what we need to challenge.


Not just juries, some judges as well.


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## MrWill (15 Jul 2014)

A flashing light during is going to increase the chances of you being seen. Impossible to distinguish by how much, because every situation would be different.

But just look at part of a post I made previously about why things are seen.

A light will add OR enhance one of the following, thus increasing the chance of being seen.

Shape
Shadow
Silhouette
Movement
Spacing
Position
Texture
Colour
Noise
Shine
It's very bloody simple.

As an ex , an expert on why things are seen, trust me on this.

I don't get why anyone thinks otherwise, is it a lack of intelligence, or that people just like to argue on cycling forums or what?


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## BSRU (15 Jul 2014)

MrWill said:


> I don't get why anyone thinks otherwise, is it a lack of intelligence, or that people just like to argue on cycling forums or what?


The second one usually.


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## snorri (15 Jul 2014)

MrWill said:


> I don't get why anyone thinks otherwise, is it a lack of intelligence, or that people just like to argue on cycling forums or what?


 Most of the contributors to the thread are simply expressing their points of view. You are the one upping the anti with use of a swear word and questioning the intelligence of others.


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## glasgowcyclist (15 Jul 2014)

MrWill said:


> A flashing light during is going to increase the chances of you being seen. Impossible to distinguish by how much, because every situation would be different.
> 
> But just look at part of a post I made previously about why things are seen.
> 
> ...


 
Your list of factors is interesting, and useful to someone whose primary objective is to pick out a target. Sadly, many drivers are not ex-snipers and can't be arsed to scan the field of view from their vehicle with the same level of scrutiny. I'd go further and suggest that a flashing front light only weakens safety by confirming your status as 'only a cyclist' and the average driver will SMIDGAF you.

GC


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## numbnuts (15 Jul 2014)

I've just come back from a 28 mile ride using a front flashing light for the first time, on the country lanes all drivers pulled over to let me pass, this is quite unusual, most would force me to stop.
In the town I had one driver that hesitated and then stopped to let me go by, so flashing lights may work, but I think it needs more testing.


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## stu9000 (19 Jul 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> It isn't about taking umbrage.
> 
> This thread, like many others, is trying to impart safety advice to other cyclists. And this thread will be read by others long after we have finished posting to it. If I asserted, on the basis of anecdata and pleas to "common sense", that my St Christopher Medal makes me 1% safer I'd expect to be challenged.
> 
> ...



Glad to read you are not taking umbridge and I do accept your point to a degree. But what kind of evidence would you require? Even quotes from peer review documents are meaningless unless you go and read the source . at some point you have to use your judgement having sifted through the best data you can get your hands on. I think this differentiates from some religious good luck charm. There must be more controversial statements we can debate than whether flashing lights attract the eye. I'm sure one will come along shortly.


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## stu9000 (19 Jul 2014)

snorri said:


> Where does it all end? Bicycles with flashing lights, cycle riders clothed like a pyschedelic vomit.



True. Tis a mad world. Like the proliferation of road signs even for things like crossing frogs! But I don't want to end up over the bonnet of a half asleep driver so I'm keeping the day glo and my flashers. But we are a bit risk averse and safety conscious compared to our parents I think.


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## GrumpyGregry (19 Jul 2014)

MrWill said:


> A flashing light during is going to increase the chances of you being seen. Impossible to distinguish by how much, because every situation would be different.
> 
> But just look at part of a post I made previously about why things are seen.
> 
> ...


On the other hand other experts on why things are seen, and other experts on why things aren't seen, don't seem to agree with you.

But perhaps if you were to link to some scientific literature that supports _and explains_ the basis of your pov rather than just asserting your expertise on the matter the debate could move beyond mere willy-waving?


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## GrumpyGregry (19 Jul 2014)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Your list of factors is interesting, and useful to someone whose primary objective is to pick out a target. Sadly, many drivers are not ex-snipers and can't be arsed to scan the field of view from their vehicle with the same level of scrutiny. I'd go further and suggest that a flashing front light only weakens safety by confirming your status as 'only a cyclist' and the average driver will SMIDGAF you.
> 
> GC


Even though the I've met both a few times, and the outcomes have been broadly the same, I find the arrogance of the SMIDGAF-er preferable to the complete incompetence of the SMIDSY who drives in a waking coma.


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## Jameshopper (19 Jul 2014)

From what i have read in the reports i have looked at, there doesn't seem to be any suggestions that a flashing light in the daylight would actually reduce the chances of being seen. Are you able to provide a link that does?
If not, is the discussion then turning towards whether a flashing light will increase the chances of being seen or not? In this case, i don't see any issue with having one.


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## stu9000 (24 Jul 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> On the other hand other experts on why things are seen, and other experts on why things aren't seen, don't seem to agree with you.
> 
> But perhaps if you were to link to some scientific literature that supports _and explains_ the basis of your pov rather than just asserting your expertise on the matter the debate could move beyond mere willy-waving?



Not willywaving. It is my opinion which you are welcome to disagree with. It is a 'forum' for discussion. To suggest that flashing lights increase your chances of being seen does not seem that controversial to me. Everything from Pelican Crossings to emergency beacons on life jackets use them. Now, I can't point you to the extensive testing and research that has undoubtedly been done so I am resigned to the likelihood that I have not swayed you. Ah well.


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## KneesUp (24 Jul 2014)

Ganymede said:


> Hi chums
> 
> A few times recently I've *seen* a cyclist ... * I take note* ... I've *seen* him from my bike and from the car ... I've just driven ... and *saw him *


I think you've answered your own question.


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## deptfordmarmoset (24 Jul 2014)

Personally, when driving I like the early warning that I get from an oncoming cyclist in the dark. A couple of times this year I've had to brake suddenly because an oncoming numpty car driver has begun a cyclist overtake when we're almost opposite. If I don't brake the driver is likely to swerve back into the cyclist. The early warning helps me scan the road for possible dangers to the cyclist. Some, of course, will maintain that I should see the cyclist anyway, etc, but I prefer it.


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## BSRU (24 Jul 2014)

I remember when I learnt to ride a motorbike, there was a similar debate about whether to ride with lights on or not.
The theory is that lights on mean drivers are more likely to see you but are less able to judge your speed.


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## Ganymede (24 Jul 2014)

KneesUp said:


> I think you've answered your own question.


I think you've omitted to read my replies to the other people who raised this point.

My points were:

It was bright sunlight
I could see every other cyclist on the road, none of whom had lights on at all
His light wasn't a normal flashing light, it was a feck off great big blinder like a searchlight
I found him distracting
He is the only person ever in all my cycling or driving that I've ever seen have such a feck off great big blinder of a flashing light on in bright sunlight in the middle of the day, so I thought I mention it.

Not: "everybody who rides in daylight or nighttime with a flashing front light is a massive numpty and I'm a blind fool who wants all cyclists to be invisible and die." 

I have thought subsequently that if every cyclist did this in sunlight, it would be bonkers.

*yawns, sleeps*


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## Dan B (24 Jul 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> the debate could move beyond mere willy-waving?


I can't even see his willy at this distance, so waving it is not going to help. Maybe if it was flashing on and off?


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## GrumpyGregry (25 Jul 2014)

stu9000 said:


> Not willywaving. It is my opinion which you are welcome to disagree with. It is a 'forum' for discussion. To suggest that flashing lights increase your chances of being seen does not seem that controversial to me. Everything from Pelican Crossings to emergency beacons on life jackets use them. Now, I can't point you to the extensive testing and research that has *undoubtedly been done* so I am resigned to the likelihood that I have not swayed you. Ah well.


Is that a fact?


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## stu9000 (26 Jul 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> Is that a fact?


Yes


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## GrumpyGregry (26 Jul 2014)

stu9000 said:


> Yes


Amazing what some people mistakenly believe.


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## snorri (26 Jul 2014)

Jameshopper said:


> is the discussion then turning towards whether a flashing light will increase the chances of being seen or not? In this case, i don't see any issue with having one.


No.
The issue is the unnecessary distraction caused to other road users by the use of a flashing light on a vehicle being propelled in a normal manner and the danger this distraction may cause to other road users.
The fewer flashing lights, ie distractions, we have on the roads the better.


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## GrumpyGregry (26 Jul 2014)

User said:


> The other day I was walking through a pedestrianised section of road. A police van in front of me was being driven at little more than walking pace, with the hazards on. When the driver wanted to pull over, he had lost the ability to indicate for an increased ability to see a large white van. Good trade off?


Hazards lights on a slow moving vehicle... well they do tip you off that something hazardous is about to happen and it would so spoil the drivers fun if they indicated to others what that might be...


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## youngoldbloke (29 Jul 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> Ahh. The "pretty obvious" school of scientific investigation.
> 
> Please go read "The Invisible Gorilla" et al. Studies suggest the likelihood of you being seen has very little to do with your own appearance and behaviour and everything to do with the expectations of the person doing the looking.
> 
> The drivers who look _and see_ will see a cyclist without blinky blinkies, but still may not drive appropriately, whilst the drivers who look but don't see won't see even if the cyclist is lit up like a Xtmas tree and dressed like a space lemon, and they certainly won't drive appropriately as a result.


But, the gorilla wasn't wearing flashing lights was it? If it had been the results may have been different..


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## GrumpyGregry (29 Jul 2014)

youngoldbloke said:


> But, the gorilla wasn't wearing flashing lights was it? If it had been the results may have been different..


Feel free to read the book.


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## stu9000 (29 Jul 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> Amazing what some people mistakenly believe.



Every 2nd post you write demands evidence. Not a bad thing in itself. But unrealistic beyond a certain point. 

Most people on this forum are quite capable of sifting through the available data to make a reasoned judgement. 

You seem to be arguing that there is no evidence to support the view that flashers increase the likelihood of one being seen. I pointed out that everything from life jackets to emergency vehicles suggest otherwise but you demand more evidence. 

I have no problem with being asked to back up my assertions but this is cycle chat and not the Lancet . 

What if we were talking about whether the earth was round. Would you steadfastly stick to a flat earth policy until someone provided evidence for you. Or would you make a judgement based on the widely available data from a range of sources that suggest otherwise?


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## GrumpyGregry (29 Jul 2014)

stu9000 said:


> What if we were talking about whether the earth was round. Would you steadfastly stick to a flat earth policy until someone provided evidence for you. Or would you make a judgement based on the widely available data from a range of sources that suggest otherwise?


As you say, evidence that the world is round is widely available from a range of sources.

Evidence that flashing front lights make cyclists safer, on the the other hand, isn't. Any more than evidence that dressing like a space lemon makes them safer either. 

So when folk assert "IT'S OBVIOUS" some of us are bound to ask "is it though?"

Cyclists should not have to modify their appearance to be safe in broad daylight. Rather motor vehicle operators should have to modify their behaviour. And that's all there is to it.


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