# Paint adhesion problem. How to resolve? Any paint experts here?



## I like Skol (11 Jul 2022)

I am slowly fitting a new bathroom with no particular time restraints so have already dragged this out over 6 months for various reasons.....

2 weeks ago I painted the room with the final paint finish but now find this is not really adhered at all well. This was noticed when moving some of the furniture around and a light rub removed some of the paint. I then scraped it with my nail and the paint comes off almost as easily as that silver stuff they put on scratch cards to hide the winning numbers. I then did a tape test using some electrical insulation tape as I know that is not massively sticky so should not be an unreasonable test. The paint lifts off when the tape is removed!

As far as I am concerned I did perfect preparation before painting. The walls are sound plaster in good condition and have been previously painted with no problems. I washed down the walls before giving them a couple of coats of Crown magnolia matt emulsion left over from another room to make sure the surface was clean and uniform. This adhered well and was allowed to dry for at least 6-8 weeks before I painted with the final paint. The paint used is from B&Q and is mixed to your choice of colour from sample cards they have in a huge rack. It is Valspar Classic kitchen & bathroom specific paint and is described as "scrubbable with everyday durability".

Clearly this is not right and the paint is not stuck. It has had 2 weeks to dry properly but is still the same. I now have a number of problems;


The paint is quickly going to look awful as any contact is likely to scratch it off.
I suspect once the room is used as a bathroom and gets steamy (there is an extractor fan) the paint is going to start lifting.
How can this be resolved? Painting over it isn't going to improve the adhesion and removing it seems an almost impossible task.
Bathroom fitment has now stopped as I can't do any more until the paint issue is resolved.
So, what has gone wrong? The matt emulsion used as an undercoat between the original paint and the new stuff should provide the perfect base for anything as it is not oil based or shiny smooth.

I have phoned the paint manufacturer and they have asked me to raise a complaint via the customer service email address and they will offer a solution 'as a goodwill gesture'! I'm not sure what goodwill element there is, their product doesn't work. I don't want a refund or replacement paint, I want them to come and get this carp off my walls and put me back to the position I was in before.

I will raise the complaint as requested but does anyone have any advice for me re: legal position or technical advice before the discussion with the paint company gets technical?


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## Milkfloat (11 Jul 2022)

My first question is what is the paint below - if it is vinyl/silk/bathroom paint then you will need to really key the surface to get adhesion.


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## Jody (11 Jul 2022)

My dad was in the paint game for 30 odd years. 

I'll ask him later if he has any suggestions.


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## I like Skol (11 Jul 2022)

Milkfloat said:


> My first question is what is the paint below - if it is vinyl/silk/bathroom paint then you will need to really key the surface to get adhesion.



As I said in the OP, the bathroom paint was cleaned and painted over with matt emulsion which has stuck well. I then waited 1-2 months before painting with the Valspar bathroom paint which has not adhered to the matt surface at all. The matt surface should be a perfect base and the room is not in use so nothing has coated the matt surface after it was applied.


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## Poacher (11 Jul 2022)

I'm no expert! However, having taken care to thoroughly rub down a previously gloss coated stairs handrail and window sill, then used Valspar V700 wood and metal, I'm *really *not impressed by the adhesion. In fact it's been a bloody pig of a job!

I've concluded that Valspar is not of a quality commensurate with its price, and certainly won't be using it next time (if there is a next time!).


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## Cycleops (11 Jul 2022)

Should be okay, it's an emulsion like your undercoat, so compatible.
I looked on their website and a lot of negative reviews for your paint. Nobody said it flaked off but many said it was terrible with one comparing it to water so looks like Valspar are aware.
Shouldn't hold your breath for someone coming to remove it for you FoC


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## si_c (11 Jul 2022)

If it's starting to flake off with minimal contact then I wouldn't be willing to put up a replacement of the same, particularly if online reviews are poor. Not the easiest solution, but might be worth sanding back to the undercoat, cleaning, re-prepping and then putting on some better paint.

We've had to do a lot of painting recently having done a lot of renovation work on the house, we did consider using Valspar paints as they seemed readily available through B&Q, but mixed reviews did put us off, in the end though we went to Bromborough Paints who are only a couple of miles away, and they've mixed up a lot of paint for us from trade paints and it's all gone on perfectly and been cheaper than the branded paint we were getting colour matched as well.

Might well be worth speaking to a local independent paint shop.


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## Milkfloat (11 Jul 2022)

When it peels does it bring the magnolia emulsion from underneath with it or does that stay?


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## presta (11 Jul 2022)

I don't think there's going to be much alternative to paint stripper, and starting again with better quality paint. I always use a hot air gun because I don't like the idea of chemical stripper residue attacking the new paint, but that's on woodwork, I doubt it will work on plaster, will it?

I have some peeling in the kitchen, but that's right back to the plaster, so probably the original from when the house was built 75 years ago. I also have some woodwork where I was tempted to try rubbing down with the green scouring pads B&Q sell for the job instead of sanding, it's the only time I've skimped on prep, and it was a mistake, it's peeling. I always use Dulux, and have never had any problems that I would put down to the paint itself.

(Back in the 1960s my mother used to reckon that Woolworths own-brand paint was the best that money could buy, beating all the big names hands down. )


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## sleuthey (11 Jul 2022)

Scrape all the paint off. Sand down the wall with 80 grit paper. Apply one coat of Bullseye Zinser123 diluted with 10% water. Apply 2 top coats of premium emulsion that says wipe clean on the tin.


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## Hicky (11 Jul 2022)

I have had loads of building work done over the last three years after moving and with a view to a baby coming along bought Fukui easycare(wipeable), I’ve had two dodgy batches where I’ve had to scrape it off and start again with a new tub. The adhesion is awe full and pulls very easily when painting/cutting in. It’s not great. I think most modern paints are poor. “The restoration couple” have over the years trialled plenty of alternatives to the usual bnq offerings. Pricey but seemingly gets their vote.


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## newts (11 Jul 2022)

Did you water down the first coat of Valspar? Matt emulsion is very absorbant, The vinyl paint has probably dried too quickly & not adhered properly.


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## dan_bo (11 Jul 2022)

Damp plaster is not your friend...nor is shiny plaster. Other than that I've got nothing for ya.


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## MontyVeda (11 Jul 2022)

bathrooms innit... that water vapor gets everywhere, even under the paint.


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## Jody (11 Jul 2022)

I've just got off the phone with my dad and he has an idea whats happened. 

Apparently Matt paint doesn't contain vinyl these days so it won't offer a bonded layer for the next paint to adhere to. He reckons if you take a piece that's come away and look at the rear it will have paint residue on it, or to wet you finger and rub the surface that was next to the Matt which should also leave residue. This would cause it to peel.

If that's the case your only option is to strip it off and either use a coat of watered down PVA or another sealant. Then use the paint you want over that layer.


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## slowmotion (11 Jul 2022)

I've removed emulsion from plaster walls using a steam wallpaper stripper and a stripping knife. The steam softens the paint and then you go to work with the knife. It's mind-bogglingly tedious but it does work.


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## neil_merseyside (11 Jul 2022)

Jody said:


> and either use a coat of watered down PVA or another sealant. Then use the paint you want over that layer.



I thought PVA sealed the surface pores too well effectively making it smooth and ungrippy.


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## Jody (11 Jul 2022)

neil_merseyside said:


> I thought PVA sealed the surface pores too well effectively making it smooth and ungrippy.



No idea. He might be thinking it's been freshly skimmed before the basecoat.


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## Randomnerd (12 Jul 2022)

Stand aside! Paint expert coming through.

what? Qualifications? This is the Internet, lads. Come on.

(A summer as a student painting bathrooms with Zinsser on Staten Island to pay for a driveaway car trip across the States; six years as a sign writer and bespoke painted furniture / kitchen cabinets / mural painter; BSc in Paint Science from Dulux College, Cambridge. One of these is a lie.)

Take off the Valspar. Rough back the emulsion ( it’s a bit like the joke in Ireland about directions “I wouldn’t start from here…” You’re not going to go back to plaster and put on Zinnser BIN so you will have to trust the emulsion is on right and not trapping any oil or solvent…) to make a key and use Bullseye 123 as a base. Two coats, with at least 90 mins drying time between coats and an overnight before the topcoat. Your second undercoat can be tinted towards your final colour if it’s desired. Anything waterbased as topcoat, but don’t go cheap. Specialist bathroom paints as top aren’t really any more wipeable than good emulsions imho.

Things will be better now, but we would be off our nuts on Zinnser by lunchtime. VOCs. Keep the windows open!

If you’re bothered about the environment and your health - having looked at VOC off gassing I now steer clear - I recommend Mythic Paint, but I don’t think it’s freely on sale in the UK. Also Lakeland Paint. Zero VOCs.


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## Jody (12 Jul 2022)

Randomnerd said:


> Stand aside! Paint expert coming through.
> 
> what? Qualifications? This is the Internet, lads. Come on.
> 
> (A summer as a student painting bathrooms with Zinsser on Staten Island to pay for a driveaway car trip across the States; six years as a sign writer and bespoke painted furniture / kitchen cabinets / mural painter; BSc in Paint Science from Dulux College, Cambridge. One of these is a lie.)



My dad was a qualified sign writer also.


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## chris667 (12 Jul 2022)

I have recently replastered my bathroom. I used PVA watered down to seal it.

So if you want to see if that works, ask me after it's done!

What I would say is I am very disappointed with the quality of pretty much everything B&Q sells nowadays. I bought a kitchen off them. Did all the recommended steps. The worktop has warped and if I use the aerator the top flies off the tap. It's stuff bad property developers fit to flip a place they're selling.


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## newts (12 Jul 2022)

chris667 said:


> What I would say is I am very disappointed with the quality of pretty much everything B&Q sells nowadays. I bought a kitchen off them. Did all the recommended steps. The worktop has warped and if I use the aerator the top flies off the tap. It's stuff bad property developers fit to flip a place they're selling.


A good summary of B&Q👍


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## Illaveago (12 Jul 2022)

I think most paints are carp nowadays . They have taken the body out of it in order to reduce VOC's

The Egyptians knew how to paint walls . Their stuff has lasted thousands of years .


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## Darius_Jedburgh (12 Jul 2022)

But....the first thing Valspar will want is a control test.
Maybe OP should do his own. Blank brickwork, dry and clean plaster, untreated timber or a similar wall to the problem one prepared in line with Valspar instructions. Paint all these in the same manner as the problem wall.
If the paint still peels off it is the fault of the paint and Valspar have to fix it.
If the paint sticks it is the fault of the surface preparation and it will be down to OP to fix.


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## 8mph (12 Jul 2022)

I do a fair bit of decorating and steer clear of Valspar paint, I find it watery and it gives off a bad smell. I'd scrub the walls down with a wet Scotchbrite pad then repaint with Dulux Easycare emulsion or something similar.


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## GuyBoden (12 Jul 2022)

Modern paint is rubbish, but it's better for your health and the environment.


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## Dag Hammar (12 Jul 2022)

As Randomnerd said earlier today , Zinsser paints really are top notch. They may appear more expensive than some other paints ( which indeed they are ) but the thing is, amongst their wide range of paint products they have specialist paints to overcome particular problems.
As an aside, 40 odd years ago Valpar paints were my paint of choice and I never had any problems with their undercoat, gloss or emulsion but I have read user reviews of their paints in the last few years and there has been many complaints about the quality. I think Valspar were taken over by another company and as is often the case chasing the bottom line leads to scrimping on quality.
Take a look at the Zinsser website, https://www.zinsseruk.com There is a lot of useful information on there.


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## neil_merseyside (12 Jul 2022)

chris667 said:


> I have recently replastered my bathroom. I used PVA watered down to seal it.
> 
> So if you want to see if that works, ask me after it's done!



Bad news, PVA for tiling is a real no-no needs to be SBR for tiling.

https://www.wallsandfloors.co.uk/blog/can-i-use-pva-prime-surface-tiling/


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## I like Skol (12 Jul 2022)

I put in my official complaint to Valspar this morning including this rather damning picture to illustrate the Problem.







Now I just need to wait for their response on how they intend to rectify the mess....


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## PaulSB (13 Jul 2022)

I can't offer any technical solutions but this my experience regarding some of the previous comments.

I've removed old emulsion with a steam stripper and this definitely works. My recollection is with plenty of steam it was quite easy and quick.

I've used Valspar paints in two bathrooms and a kitchen without any problems. Valspar has been my go to choice until I discovered the excellent advice given at Dulux Decorator Centres and then moved on to a local independent. A good local independent would now be my go to for help. I'd suggest a good one would probably be able to solve the issue for you.

I've used Zinser with outstanding results. One example which springs to mind is full width pine bedroom wardrobes - that 1980s look. I used two coats of Zinser followed by Farrow & Ball. The results were to my surprise and delight excellent. I didn't believe the paint had any chance of sticking in the longterm - it has.

I'd strongly recommend F&B and in particular the Estate emulsion range which I've found very hard-wearing.


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## Arrowfoot (13 Jul 2022)

Saw this thread and went to Trustpilot. Never seen a product royally thrashed as this.


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## I like Skol (13 Jul 2022)

Arrowfoot said:


> Saw this thread and went to Trustpilot. Never seen a product royally thrashed as this.



Hindsight is a wonderful thing ☹️

But yes, you are right.....


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## CXRAndy (13 Jul 2022)

Take it all off, scraping or sanding back, use a 400-600 grit paper to smooth plaster but give a key. Apply SBR to roughened clean plaster. Allow SBR to go off, but remain fresh. You could even mix a small amount of SBR with paint, stir well in to paint then paint walls again. Paint won't come off then


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## Adam4868 (13 Jul 2022)

I'm no real painter...but Plasterer I am.Id never seal plaster with PVA.Painting new plaster a watered down mist coat of paint,anything thicker and the plaster won't absorb it.Dont forget to let plaster fully dry out first.
Right sorry it's not much help to you Skolly 😁


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## Profpointy (13 Jul 2022)

Adam4868 said:


> I'm no real painter...but Plasterer I am.Id never seal plaster with PVA.Painting new plaster a watered down mist coat of paint,anything thicker and the plaster won't absorb it.Dont forget to let plaster fully dry out first.
> Right sorry it's not much help to you Skolly 😁



I had a somewhat similar sounding problem where paint would't stick and even ended up looking like crocodile skin after several attempts. Anyhow I sanded steamed and scraped as best I could, then over time painted several layers of "mist coats" (as decorators call it) of very watered down paint, then a couple of normal coats and eventually all was well


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## fossyant (13 Jul 2022)

I think you need TNT like Mr Bean did when he painted his lounge.


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## kynikos (13 Jul 2022)

I like Skol said:


> I put in my official complaint to Valspar this morning including this rather damning picture to illustrate the Problem.
> 
> View attachment 652536
> 
> ...



Valspar's response:


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## MrGrumpy (15 Jul 2022)

Valspar has its place , a bedroom would be the limit for me. I just put up a mist coat on My new plastered kitchen walls. Then two coats of F&B estate emulsion. It’s so far quite tough. Wipeable easily enough . 
However it matter not a jot what you put on top of underneath is not stable. 

Worked out over the years of using cheap products that you have to pay for quality .


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## Illaveago (17 Jul 2022)

kynikos said:


> Valspar's response:
> 
> View attachment 652703



I was thinking of Gorilla tape .


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## I like Skol (17 Jul 2022)

The reply has come back from Valpar and it is frankly pathetic!
Basically this is what they have said.. 
"It's disappointing when projects don't go to plan. If you would like a voucher for a tub of free paint please reply to request this."

No suggestions as to why it didn't work. No pointing out errors in my preparation or the conditions in which the paint was applied. Just ' the paint didn't work, here have some more'!

I'm not accepting this as the product is clearly not fit for purpose or is faulty and I am just working on my (polite!) response to point this out and make them accept responsibility for their sh1te!


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## Adam4868 (17 Jul 2022)

I like Skol said:


> The reply has come back from Valpar and it is frankly pathetic!
> Basically this is what they have said..
> "It's disappointing when projects don't go to plan. If you would like a voucher for a tub of free paint please reply to request this."
> 
> ...


Bad workman allways blames his tools...should of been the reply 😂


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## postman (17 Jul 2022)

A shed and fence paint two years ago.Five coats of green over blue,never blocked the blue out,then it rained and it finished up looking like tiger bread.That crap came from a pound type shop.I never even got a reply to my e mail.


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## keithmac (17 Jul 2022)

Leyland Trade, (or most trade paints) seem to be the way to go. Not the watered down shi1te they sell for DIY use.


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## MrGrumpy (17 Jul 2022)

keithmac said:


> Leyland Trade, (or most trade paints) seem to be the way to go. Not the watered down shi1te they sell for DIY use.



Yes but even some so called trade paints are sh1te as well ! Leyland I think are owned by Johnstone paints ? They also make/ supply paint for own brand such Homebase , wickes !


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## keithmac (17 Jul 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Yes but even some so called trade paints are sh1te as well ! Leyland I think are owned by Johnstone paints ? They also make/ supply paint for own brand such Homebase , wickes !



Best thing you can do is pick a paint then have a look at the reviews first, I believe Dulux got a roasting a few years back for supplying sub standard paint.


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## MrGrumpy (17 Jul 2022)

Dulux trade stuff is good , however you do imo pay more for better stuff . Just splashed out £150 on farrow and ball paint for the kitchen . However it appears to be very good, already wiped it down to remove marks . Knowing now about paint I’d plump for the more expensive stuff every time.


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## Adam4868 (17 Jul 2022)

keithmac said:


> Leyland Trade, (or most trade paints) seem to be the way to go. Not the watered down shi1te they sell for DIY use.


That's what I've allways used....never really had a problem.


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## kynikos (17 Jul 2022)

It should certainly perform better than it has done but I'm not sure "I did perfect preparation before painting" is necessarily true. Recoat time on your undercoat was likely a couple of hours. With a different colour going on top it may have been sensible to leave it until the next day, at which point it will have still been a little bit tacky thus giving good adhesion. By leaving it to dry for 6-8 weeks the undercoat may have hardened off to the extent where it's no longer in an optimum state for a further coat to adhere properly - with an argument being that, after such an interval, you'd have been better to have lightly sanded the walls to provide a key.

I say this from recent experience where the second top-coat I was applying just didn't adhere as I'd inadvertently left it too long. Different paint, different manufacturer, but it was only when I read the instructions on the back of the can that I discovered:

Test a small area first for adhesion...
Adhesion: If adhesion is inadequate on previously coated surfaces, lightly sand before application.
Minimum of two coats required. Subsequent coats must be applied no longer than 8 hours apart.
Cue a couple or three hours sanding and cleaning down and a self-kicking.


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