# Survey says roads feel too dangerous for cycling



## C R (9 May 2019)

The graun has a piece on a survey by British Cycling, which reveals the level of danger felt by cyclists on the road, and how not addressing this puts people off cycling.

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...ing-we-need-enforcement-not-calls-for-respect


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## rugby bloke (9 May 2019)

All rings true to me. When it comes to close passes, you pretty much have 2 choices - get used to it or stop cycling. I honestly don't know what the answer is. In my situation I predominately cycle on quite roads on in rural Northants, even my commute to the station is along country roads. I don't for a minute expect these to be upgraded to provide segregated cycling paths. In general the majority of drivers are safe and considerate however on every ride there are a few who consider their unimpeded progress more important than my safety. Unfortunately I very much doubt they would be responsive to any type of driver education program.


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## johnnyb47 (9 May 2019)

There talking about this now on BBC radio Wales. Its quite interesting


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## mjr (9 May 2019)

rugby bloke said:


> In my situation I predominately cycle on quite roads on in rural Northants, even my commute to the station is along country roads. I don't for a minute expect these to be upgraded to provide segregated cycling paths.


Why not, or at least the A roads? Some estimate that the whole network could be completed (as some already have them) for a third of the cost of HS2. Surely the bits that really need it, the short links between quiet lanes and stuff like that, could be done very cheaply.

I'm in favour of enforcement and education, but also engineering. It's better not to obsess about any one over the others. All the three Es can help.

I guess I'm also very lucky that I'm one of the 10% not getting close passed regularly, possibly due to having more cycleways than average here (even if some are substandard and they're not building many new ones) and most people knowing someone who cycles.


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## Donger (9 May 2019)

All very true. Guess I'm also lucky to have access to a lot of very quiet roads where I live. If you were to do a survey, I'm sure the map of Britain would show whole large areas that are a no-go for cyclists. Looking at the "Your Ride Today" thread, there also seem to be several pockets that produce the most contributors, suggesting that Gloucestershire, Leicestershire, Yorkshire and parts of Scotland (for example) may seem less threatening.

There are places in the Midlands where I would love to be able to ride, but I take one look at the road network and get put off by the dual carriageways, huge roundabouts and motorway link roads everywhere. Personally I would never have ridden to Stratford upon Avon without audaxing there using the Stratford Greenway. I ride a lot of audaxes, and I find that someone or other at Audax UK will have used local knowledge to find all the very best quiet routes around. The calendar of events on their website is well worth a look if you are looking for ideas.

The "Your Ride Today" thread has also been a source of inspiration to me over the years, helping me to discover the Mawddach Trail and the roads of South Wales and the Isle of Wight and inspiring me to try the Snake Pass when it was closed to traffic (etc, etc). If any of you know of any great quiet routes in your area, why not share your experiences on that thread?

I'm currently on holiday in Scotland, and we stopped off at Stirling on our way up. I was going to do a ride out to the Wallace Monument and then down through Stirling to Bannockburn and the hills beyond. This would have meant riding through Stirling twice. After driving through it once, I ditched the idea immediately. I think I now see why nobody has ever posted a ride through Stirling in "Your Ride Today"! Hoping for better luck near Moffatt on our way back home.


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## DCBassman (9 May 2019)

I never, if I can help it, ride on any road that could remotely be called busy, and if I can plan it so, on no roads at all. Just not worth the risk. Cyclists crossing Roborough down for fun or commute give me the horrors. The rights of the cyclists don't really matter at the moment, the danger is simply too great to go challenging for them.


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## rugby bloke (9 May 2019)

mjr said:


> Why not, or at least the A roads? Some estimate that the whole network could be completed (as some already have them) for a third of the cost of HS2. Surely the bits that really need it, the short links between quiet lanes and stuff like that, could be done very cheaply.
> .


To be honest I would settle for the roads being properly surfaced and pothole free - this would at least allow me ride a consistent line instead of having to work my way around the hazards on the road. I am sure that this is a great source of annoyance for car drivers.
I do take your point about building segregated lanes on A roads in order to link quite B roads together in order to create a network of cycle friendly routes. The thing is though, even on the B roads you will get a close pass, the drivers are either ignorant or just do not care. I have become hardened over the years and its not going to put me off but I see it as a significant barrier to people taking up cycling.

The great irony is that I feel safest riding in central London - at least drivers are expecting to be around cyclists.


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## mjr (9 May 2019)

Donger said:


> The "Your Ride Today" thread has also been a source of inspiration to me over the years, helping me to discover the Mawddach Trail and the roads of South Wales and the Isle of Wight and inspiring me to try the Snake Pass when it was closed to traffic (etc, etc). If any of you know of any great quiet routes in your area, why not share your experiences on that thread?


Because I rarely find time to write up a ride on the same day.


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## mjr (9 May 2019)

rugby bloke said:


> I do take your point about building segregated lanes on A roads in order to link quite B roads together in order to create a network of cycle friendly routes. The thing is though, even on the B roads you will get a close pass, the drivers are either ignorant or just do not care.


Yes and there we need enforcement most. Most A roads are probably a lost cause for a few years.

To be honest, I'm not even thinking of linking B roads as much as like putting a cycleway along the mostly-wide-verged bit of the A508 between Yardley Gobion's so-called bypass and Grafton Regis to connect Yardley to Route 6 to Northampton without a mile and a half of rough grass towpath that condemns everyone to choose between walking, a MTB that's slow on the much longer road bit, braving the nasty fasty A road and taking the easier option of driving instead. That's a long example and many "A road barriers" are a half mile or less but it's near you.

Engineering, education and enforcement. None are happening enough yet.


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## snorri (9 May 2019)

rugby bloke said:


> In my situation I predominately cycle on quite roads on in rural Northants, even my commute to the station is along country roads. I don't for a minute expect these to be upgraded to provide segregated cycling paths.


I feel similarly in not expecting to see segregated paths everywhere, but I would like to see lower speed limits where segregated paths cannot be provided for economic or practical reasons. The existing situation in the UK where the 60mph NSL applies to narrow rural roads is not cycle friendly.


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## KneesUp (9 May 2019)

A lot of this rings true - but in a way I prefer the busier roads, at least for commuting, because the motorised traffic doesn't move much, and if it does the roads are wider so they _can_ give you more room, if they want - and there are often drops in the kerb where you can escape if you need to.

Whenever I'm on one of those de-restricted country lanes with hedges and fences and stuff, no matter how quiet it is, I'm always expected some yoof in a Saxo to come flying past me or toward me, with no room for either of us to get out of the way.


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## mjr (9 May 2019)

OK, the report itself lives at https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/stateofcycling - it seems to be based on a survey of BC members and skewed to racers or race-like riders, with "96% of those surveyed do wear a helmet on the road" which suggests they've been listening to BC and its clubs and their generally wrongheaded  ideas about safety (the main one of which can be discussed at https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/the-cyclechat-helmet-debate-thread.187059/ ) rather than advice based on the evidence from data analysis units. While Chris Boardman uses the 96% figure to comment on the futility of current advice, I think it should be setting off alarm bells about how well this survey represents "cyclists" which is how BC is presenting it.

So the spires (the campaign demands) may be noble but it looks like they may be built on sand. I didn't find much detail about the survey methodology yet. I'm going to be cautious about spreading this further.


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## raleighnut (9 May 2019)

I think one of the problems is modern cars, they've been made far too safe for the occupants. Not only that but even basic modern saloons exceed the performance of 'supercars' from the 70s.


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## mjr (9 May 2019)

The more I read, the less I like it. "72% also said that they often see people on bikes riding in a way which puts themselves in danger" - now, given that most people in this country (and definitely most BC members in my experience) have a very skewed idea of what's dangerous on a bike, I have my doubts about how much of what they saw was actually dangerous, rather than just annoying or stuff they wouldn't do. There are plenty of complaints even on this site about riders listening to a speaker, looking at a sat nav or walking a pet dog while cycling - on other sites, carrying luggage strapped to a rear rack and even riding on the road at all are claimed to be dangerous!

Then there's the very important difference that the cyclist "puts themselves in danger" while the motorist in the same paragraph of the press release (71% of those surveyed have seen ones acting hostile to cyclists) puts others in danger, but that's not highlighted. I wonder how many saw cyclists putting OTHERS in danger? I wonder if they even asked, or if it didn't fit the "mutual respect" BS point they were looking for? 

I'm also really disappointed that even Chris Boardman falls into the trap of being unable to mention a serious motoring offence putting others at risk without mentioning a cyclist doing something that isn't always even an offence (red man or man+bike cycleway crossing lights are currently advisory, like give-ways): “We all need to take responsibility for our own actions on the road – whether you’re a cyclist skipping through a red light or a motorist using your phone at the wheel – we need an enforceable commitment to punish people in a way that is proportionate to the danger they pose.”


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## icowden (9 May 2019)

mjr said:


> OK, the report itself lives at https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/stateofcycling - it seems to be based on a survey of BC members and skewed to racers or race-like riders, with "96% of those surveyed do wear a helmet on the road" .



I wear a helmet and I'm definitely not a racer. Not sure how you draw the conclusion that it is skewed to certain types of riders by whether or not they wear a helmet. And yes, we all know about the safety debate.

Similarly, I see lots of cyclists doing what I consider to be "putting themselves in danger". Usually by failing to wait for a green light at busy junctions. Cyclists tend not to put others in danger as they mostly have no passengers and tend not to try to hit pedestrians / cars / trees etc due to the nature of their vulnerability. I've also never heard of red lights being described as advisory, but am eager to learn more about this piece of info.

I do agree with you on your last point however. In any event, isn't the most important thing about this report that it can be used as evidence to drive better cycling infrastructure and improve cycle safety, rather than semantics?


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## mjr (9 May 2019)

icowden said:


> I wear a helmet and I'm definitely not a racer. Not sure how you draw the conclusion that it is skewed to certain types of riders by whether or not they wear a helmet. And yes, we all know about the safety debate.


Coming out with a 96% usage figure when the last official statistic was something like 36% (many years ago now, before they stopped collecting it - but from what I've seen, I suspect the % has fallen since then as numbers of casual cyclists increase) suggests something is off, doesn't it?



icowden said:


> [...] I've also never heard of red lights being described as advisory, but am eager to learn more about this piece of info.


It's only the red man or man+bike lights where a cycleway crosses a road which are advisory. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/14/part/1/paragraph/9/made says they are a "should not", not a may not, must not or an offence to ignore. This was first brought to my attention when I complained to the council about the horrendously poor signal timings at a local junction.



icowden said:


> I do agree with you on your last point however. In any event, isn't the most important thing about this report that it can be used as evidence to drive better cycling infrastructure and improve cycle safety, rather than semantics?


Not really, if it's not sound evidence. Then if it's used, it'll produce slightly-wrong stuff that doesn't quite meet the needs and it's very debatable whether that's a step forwards or not (as we've seen often in the past...).


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## icowden (9 May 2019)

mjr said:


> Coming out with a 96% usage figure when the last official statistic was something like 36% (many years ago now, before they stopped collecting it - but from what I've seen, I suspect the % has fallen since then as numbers of casual cyclists increase) suggests something is off, doesn't it?



That's only based on the assumption that casual cyclists don't wear helmets. Given that all children are encouraged to wear helmets have have been for some years now, it would make sense that helmet wearing has increased as those children become adults. Most people I see wear helmets, and regardless of the debate on the semantics of safety, it just feels right that to have some sort of cushioning in between your head and a hard object is going to be helpful (a good example is the chap mown down in central London who sustained a head injury but was wearing a helmet, without which is injury would likely have been much worse).

Anything that improves cycling infrastructure and safety seems like a good move in my book. We have some great new lanes in central london. It'd be good to get more outside of the city. Case in point, my daughter goes to school by car. The distance is easily cyclable but the road that leads to the turning for her school is a 40mph road which is fairly narrow and busy. I wouldn't cycle it and I definitely wouldn't take my daughter on it.


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## fossyant (9 May 2019)

I've given up road riding - spending 6 weeks in hospital flat on my back wondering if I'll walk again was rather sobering. Not going through that again. The driver couldn't give a monkeys ! 

I'll take my chances with rocks and trees.


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## Starchivore (9 May 2019)

raleighnut said:


> I think one of the problems is modern cars, they've been made far too safe for the occupants. Not only that but even basic modern saloons exceed the performance of 'supercars' from the 70s.



I live in West Yorkshire and every 3rd or 4th car is a big SUV, it's a pisstake. They barely even fit on the roads.


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## youngoldbloke (9 May 2019)

raleighnut said:


> I think one of the problems is modern cars, they've been made far too safe for the occupants. Not only that but even basic modern saloons exceed the performance of 'supercars' from the 70s.


- they're much too wide too. I'm saddened when I see the ranks of fat arsed SUVs - and mostly only 4 seaters, blocking village and city streets, and bullying their way through country lanes. They just so unnecessary and wasteful of resources.


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## youngoldbloke (9 May 2019)

Starchivore said:


> I live in West Yorkshire and every 3rd or 4th car is a big SUV, it's a pisstake. They barely even fit on the roads.


- exactly!


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## mjr (9 May 2019)

icowden said:


> That's only based on the assumption that casual cyclists don't wear helmets.


No, that's exaggerating it. At worst, it's based on the assumption that they are less likely to use helmets than BC members who have been widely required (not merely encouraged) to use them to take part in club activities for years - not really an unreasonable assumption IMO.

I'll reply to the rest of your headgear errors in the previously-linked debate thread because they're massively off-topic here.



> Anything that improves cycling infrastructure and safety seems like a good move in my book. We have some great new lanes in central london. It'd be good to get more outside of the city. Case in point, my daughter goes to school by car. The distance is easily cyclable but the road that leads to the turning for her school is a 40mph road which is fairly narrow and busy. I wouldn't cycle it and I definitely wouldn't take my daughter on it.


I agree but it would be better to argue for it based on more solid evidence.


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## Starchivore (9 May 2019)

Thinking about this- my girlfriend and I are really into running and run together a lot. She said the other week that she might want to get a bike and start doing a bit of cycling too, and my reaction was not to encourage and assist her, I just said "mmm", and then said how round here the options are busy main roads or very steep hills to get away from that. I think if she started cycling I would worry about her.


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## Bazzer (9 May 2019)

IME the majority of drivers are safe and considerate, but there is a significant minority of drivers who quite frankly have seriously poor driving habits, or whose get out of my way/willy waving mentality extends not just to cyclists, but to other road users. Whilst driver education courses can be useful for some drivers, what seems to be the default position of certainly my local police forces of putting drivers on them for reported offences, appears to me to be wrong. 
There is also the element of offenders not being caught. Just look at motorways where there are average speed cameras, or traffic junctions where there are cameras. Certainly my personal experience is that there are far fewer offenders where there is a camera.


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## Milkfloat (9 May 2019)

Starchivore said:


> Thinking about this- my girlfriend and I are really into running and run together a lot. She said the other week that she might want to get a bike and start doing a bit of cycling too, and my reaction was not to encourage and assist her, I just said "mmm", and then said how round here the options are busy main roads or very steep hills to get away from that. I think if she started cycling I would worry about her.



Yet it is ok for you to ride?


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## mjr (9 May 2019)

Milkfloat said:


> Yet it is ok for you to ride?


Ah, but he's clever and able to keep himself safe and cycling safety's all about personal skill, isn't it(?) That's what government road safety campaigns keep telling us 

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewYeuclTLoY


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## icowden (9 May 2019)

Well... whilst keeping safe is not *all* about personal skill, you can do a lot to improve your safety such as wot that campaign refers to. If you are behind a lorry* it won't kill you. 

*and not tailgating it at 30mph


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## mjr (9 May 2019)

icowden said:


> Well... whilst keeping safe is not *all* about personal skill, you can do a lot to improve your safety such as wot that campaign refers to. If you are behind a lorry* it won't kill you.
> 
> *and not tailgating it at 30mph


or it reverses... Also, note that the lorry overtakes him before attempting the left-hook. I'm sure this was discussed on here when it came out in 2016 but I didn't find the discussion just now. Chris Boardman rightly called that video "desperately misguided"

View: https://twitter.com/Chris_Boardman/status/780308121721925632


Keeping safe is mostly about personal skill, but mostly not ours, sadly. It's time for engineers to step up and motorists to be educated and rules enforced better.


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## ozboz (9 May 2019)

I’ve been commuting for about five weeks from Richmond to Fulham , approx 5 miles , leaving about 8:30 morning outward ride : 5 ish return , had no problem at all with virtually every kind of vehicle and most likely every kind of driver , and yet had one push into kerb to which I was nearly ‘offed’ and foot to ground , my bad leg side , and at least 3 to close to comfort passes every day ,,,,,,,, guess by which type of road user ......... yep, Cyclists , the lycra mob . When I commute I ride my Surly , about 10mph , a bit to slow maybe ?


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## screenman (9 May 2019)

Some of the worst drivers I have ever travelled with have been cyclist, one of my cycling mates I refuse to be in a car he is driving.


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## raleighnut (9 May 2019)

mjr said:


> Ah, but he's clever and able to keep himself safe and cycling safety's all about personal skill, isn't it(?) That's what government road safety campaigns keep telling us
> 
> View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewYeuclTLoY



Why is that biased against cyclists, how about the 'education' to drivers not to overtake a cyclist then immediately turn left. Every 'left hook' I've had (about 4/5) has been caused by vehicles doing this including once whilst I was in a cycle lane.


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## slowmotion (9 May 2019)

In London, most cyclists seem used to riding in heavy traffic and motorists are used to driving amongst them. A 1.5 metre pass for most cyclists here is utter luxury. I don't feel remotely scared. If I take the bike to the sunken lanes of rural Cornwall or the bike lanes of Amsterdam, I'm terrified.


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## classic33 (9 May 2019)

mjr said:


> or it reverses... Also, note that the lorry overtakes him before attempting the left-hook. I'm sure this was discussed on here when it came out in 2016 but I didn't find the discussion just now. Chris Boardman rightly called that video "desperately misguided"
> 
> View: https://twitter.com/Chris_Boardman/status/780308121721925632
> 
> ...



A double white line painted on the road isn't going to guarantee your safety anymore than a single white line.

The further we go down the segregation route, on road, the greater the feeling that we have to use them. I'm on a road vehicle, why should I be forced off, to use the edge of the road or a footpath?


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## srw (9 May 2019)

Survey says people's perception of risk is out of step with reality. Shock horror probe. 

The reality is that cycling is really safe - as safe as driving or walking, even before you take into account the long term benefits of having the body of a Greek god(dess). 

The challenge is that addressing perception, especially false perception, is trickier than persuading Nigel Farage to admit he's a selfish, narcissistic, ignorant daffodil.


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## Ming the Merciless (9 May 2019)

I was close passed by a rose once, made me see red.


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## Ming the Merciless (9 May 2019)

For me the A roads don't necessarily feel unsafe. But they feel unpleasant to ride on. If something feels unpleasant you won't do it for long.


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## mjr (10 May 2019)

classic33 said:


> A double white line painted on the road isn't going to guarantee your safety anymore than a single white line.


I agree. Paint alone is not engineering, enforcement or education.



classic33 said:


> The further we go down the segregation route, on road, the greater the feeling that we have to use them. I'm on a road vehicle, why should I be forced off, to use the edge of the road or a footpath?


I disagree that the feeling that we have to use such spaces can be significantly greater - I've been told to get off the road even when there is no other space for cycling, probably by people who also complain about cycling on footways - and I think most people already feel forced off the road. It's great that many don't, but I suspect no amount of exhortation and encouragement is going to get us over 50% cycling on the current roadscape.

You're quite right that gutters and footpaths aren't good places to cycle, so we need to reclaim part of carriageways as part of the "traffic-free[sic and  ] facilities to help people build up their confidence" mentioned in the report.

We also need education to help motorists understand that there will always be people who can't/don't/won't use certain cycleways and remain on the carriageway, plus enforcement to punish them if they abuse such people.


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## classic33 (10 May 2019)

mjr said:


> I agree. Paint alone is not engineering, enforcement or education.
> 
> 
> I disagree that the feeling that we have to use such spaces can be significantly greater - I've been told to get off the road even when there is no other space for cycling, probably by people who also complain about cycling on footways - and I think most people already feel forced off the road. It's great that many don't, but I suspect no amount of exhortation and encouragement is going to get us over 50% cycling on the current roadscape.
> ...


None of which does anything to lessen the view that cycling is dangerous. "It must be suicidal(riding on the road), you need seperate lanes."

I know bus drivers that refuse to cycle on the road. As to why, " There's too many of them(said as he pointed to a bus) on the road. He was quite happy just cycling onto the road though. Then back on the pavement the other side.

Local haulage company owner is a cyclist. And will often ride past his own depot and observe the drivers reaction to him cycling in front of them.


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## mjr (10 May 2019)

classic33 said:


> None of which does anything to lessen the view that cycling is dangerous. "It must be suicidal(riding on the road), you need seperate lanes."


But that view is already out there. If no more cycleways are ever built, that view will still be there. If we scrub out all existing ones overnight, loads of people will just stop cycling, no matter how much we tell them that view is wrong. The main thing linking that view to cycleways is that some people will start off on cycleways, then start riding on the road more and more (first as short-cuts to link cycleways, then to go further out of town, where cycleways become rarer) and slowly realise that view isn't accurate - I've seen it happen again and again and again.



classic33 said:


> I know bus drivers that refuse to cycle on the road. As to why, " There's too many of them(said as he pointed to a bus) on the road. He was quite happy just cycling onto the road though. Then back on the pavement the other side.
> 
> Local haulage company owner is a cyclist. And will often ride past his own depot and observe the drivers reaction to him cycling in front of them.


Well done that haulage company owner for doing some education and maybe enforcement. More like him and less like the bus driver, please!


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## classic33 (10 May 2019)

mjr said:


> But that view is already out there. If no more cycleways are ever built, that view will still be there. If we scrub out all existing ones overnight, loads of people will just stop cycling. The main thing linking that view to cycleways is that some people will start off on cycleways, then start riding on the road more and more (first as short-cuts to link cycleways, then to go further out of town, where cycleways become rarer) and slowly realise that view isn't accurate - I've seen it happen again and again and again.
> 
> 
> Well done that haulage company owner for doing some education and maybe enforcement. More like him and less like the bus driver, please!


And if more people who may take up cycling but for the perception that because we, as cyclists, demand/require seperate facilities, it re-inforces in their mind, "it must be dangerous" if people who have been cycling are demanding segregation.


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## mjr (10 May 2019)

classic33 said:


> And if more people who may take up cycling but for the perception that because we, as cyclists, demand/require seperate facilities, it re-inforces in their mind, "it must be dangerous" if people who have been cycling are demanding segregation.


I don't believe that's true and it's contrary to evidence from other countries, but this survey is silent on that link. This survey does have other examples of BC members reinforcing the feeling of danger, though: "almost two thirds are concerned about their safety when riding on the road" and it's "an intimidating experience for even the most seasoned riders".

So what's the alternative solution? Should BC have swept this under the carpet and either not asked those questions or not reported those results?


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## Starchivore (11 May 2019)

Milkfloat said:


> Yet it is ok for you to ride?



There's definitely some silliness about the attitude I've taken, and it's not entirely rational- I don't generally feel unsafe as such, but at the same time I'm uncomfortable about the idea of my girlfriend trying round cycling round here. I think it's quite a harsh place for beginners.


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## classic33 (11 May 2019)

Starchivore said:


> There's definitely some silliness about the attitude I've taken, and it's not entirely rational- I don't generally feel unsafe as such, but at the same time I'm uncomfortable about the idea of my girlfriend trying round cycling round here. I think it's quite a harsh place for beginners.


Maybe things will ease/get better when the various roadworks are finished. Who's to know at this time. The inclines aren't something that can be helped though.


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## GilesM (21 May 2019)

srw said:


> Survey says people's perception of risk is out of step with reality. Shock horror probe.
> The reality is that cycling is really safe - as safe as driving or walking, even before you take into account the long term benefits of having the body of a Greek god(dess).



Easier to blame the false risk than it is to admit that the real problem is cycling can be quite hard, hills go up, rain comes down, and the wind blows, cars are warm and dry inside, and have built in gravity eliminators. 
Why is cycling more popular in Amsterdam, Copenhagen and Cambridge, than it is in Edinburgh?


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## yello (21 May 2019)

From my perspective of the time I spent in the UK last year (in south Shropshire): cycling wasn't fun so I stopped doing it. A combination of weight of traffic and the state of roads (the latter bothering me more in honesty) I found local lanes to be particularly concerning; visibility dramatically reduced by tall hedgerow. No, I didn't find it pleasant and there were too many times I felt vulnerable and at the whim of things beyond my control.

That is perspective, clearly, and a perspective due to context; after over 10 years riding in rural France I had become unused to UK roads. That said, I know which context I feel safer in.


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## mjr (22 May 2019)

GilesM said:


> Easier to blame the false risk than it is to admit that the real problem is cycling can be quite hard, hills go up, rain comes down, and the wind blows, cars are warm and dry inside, and have built in gravity eliminators.
> Why is cycling more popular in Amsterdam, Copenhagen and Cambridge, than it is in Edinburgh?


More people cycling, fewer of them claiming "cycling can be quite hard [...] cars are warm and dry" or that you need to do 14mph average with 20mph sprint to be a beginner, and more of them telling politicians that road designs and so on can be better, leading to improvements (although sometimes very slowly as politicians are among the least likely to cycle and officers often come from other places unfamiliar with mass cycling).


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## GilesM (22 May 2019)

mjr said:


> More people cycling, fewer of them claiming "cycling can be quite hard [...] cars are warm and dry" or that you need to do 14mph average with 20mph sprint to be a beginner, and more of them telling politicians that road designs and so on can be better, leading to improvements



If I understand your post correctly (it's not exactly clear) the answer I was thinking of was more hills, and worse weather.



mjr said:


> (although sometimes very slowly as *politicians are among the least likely to cycle* and officers often come from other places unfamiliar with mass cycling).



I agree, our local MSP recently backed a campaign for a rather pointless cycle path (nothing against it myself, just prefer the money to be used for a more useful one), very dangerous roads were given as his reason, so I asked the MSP to come for a bike ride with me to see if the roads were actually dangerous, he declined, I even offered to lend him a bike, he declined again.


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## mjr (22 May 2019)

GilesM said:


> If I understand your post correctly (it's not exactly clear) the answer I was thinking of was more hills, and worse weather.


Worse weather?!?!? I've rarely been as soaked as cycling in Denmark in August! Amsterdam does a nice line in freezing and wind, too.

Hills is true for those, but is it a significant factor? If so, why haven't ebikes changed things much? If so, why are Trondheim, Montreal, Barcelona and Ljubljana routinely in lists of top cycling cities?


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## GilesM (22 May 2019)

mjr said:


> Worse weather?!?!? I've rarely been as soaked as cycling in Denmark in August! Amsterdam does a nice line in freezing and wind, too.



The nice thing about Edinburgh weather is you get the rain and freezing wind together.



mjr said:


> Hills is true for those, but is it a significant factor? If so, why haven't ebikes changed things much? If so, why are Trondheim, Montreal, Barcelona and Ljubljana routinely in lists of top cycling cities?



The ebike is more expensive, and lots of people in Edinburgh live in flats in old buildings, no lifts, ebikes are not much fun to carry up four floors, and you still get wet and cold on an ebike. 

I've just been out for a lunch time ride, the wind is currently howling, really strong, I nearly didn't go for that reason, and I love riding my bike.


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## Phaeton (28 May 2019)

I had my worst close pass for a long time yesterday, I now ride mainly off road but have to get to & from bridleways/byways etc. out with my 7 year old grandson, we'd managed to do 6.5 miles off road & only had 1 mile to get home to do. There's a footpath so my grandson rides on that I was riding on the road, maybe I wasn't paying enough attention & keeping my eye on him, normally when I go through the pedestrian refuges I tend to take a very primary position, but this time I clearly hadn't gone over far enough to deter this Volvo estate he was Jesus H Christ close, he shocked me that much I didn't get his reg..


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