# Carbon High Racer



## dodgy (13 May 2008)

*Recumbent advice (was Carbon high racer)*

This looks a bit nice - http://www.m5-ligfietsen.nl/site/EN/Models/Carbon_High_Racer
16.6lbs and roughly £2900.

Almost enough to convince me to ditch the idea of a new road bike!

Dave.


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## Fiona N (14 May 2008)

Unfortunately (or perhaps not) my legs are too short for it if the minimum inside leg is 33inches


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## Andy in Sig (14 May 2008)

Fiona N said:


> Unfortunately (or perhaps not) my legs are too short for it if the minimum inside leg is 33inches



Awww, you poor little lamb. Shall we call you Stumpy from now on?


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## dodgy (14 May 2008)

I'll admit it, I've found myself checking out more information on 'bents. I think the trikes look like they might be a little unwieldy and heavy, does the fact they have 3 wheels mean rolling resistance becomes a problem?
I'm in the market for a new DF bike, but my 'bent curiosity is definitely aroused 

Is the added weight of a trike make up in ease of use (I imagine setting off can sometimes be tricky on a 2 wheel 'bent?)?

How do people get on riding ITRO 100 miles on a 'bent compared to a DF? Most of my rides are into Cheshire (flat) or North Wales (hilly) so I really do need a 'do it all' bike.

Cheers,

Dave.


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## Andy in Sig (14 May 2008)

dodgy said:


> I'll admit it, I've found myself checking out more information on 'bents. I think the trikes look like they might be a little unwieldy and heavy, does the fact they have 3 wheels mean rolling resistance becomes a problem?
> I'm in the market for a new DF bike, but my 'bent curiosity is definitely aroused
> 
> Is the added weight of a trike make up in ease of use (*I imagine setting off can sometimes be tricky on a 2 wheel 'bent*?)?
> ...



Setting off is only tricky when you're learning and even then it's usually just a matte of selecting the right gear.

I found my distances increased much more easily on a bent once my leg muscles adapted and my one day record is now 200 km and each time I did it I felt that I could have done a lot more without too much effort. The simplest thing that I could say to sum it up is that IMO bents are simply a better design of bike than uprights.


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## BentMikey (15 May 2008)

Andy in Sig said:


> The simplest thing that I could say to sum it up is that IMO bents are simply a better design of bike than uprights.



In some situations, but not in others. Horses for courses, and all that. Also, uprights are generally a much more refined design, and thanks to the UCI, 'bents haven't had the same amount of resources poured into R&D.


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## dodgy (15 May 2008)

Thanks all, and taking on board Andy's comments, if I become a regular user of a 'bent, is it possible that the form I obtain whilst riding it will not be transferrable to my standard DF (which I will keep) and my MTB? I don't like the idea of 100+ rides on the 'bent not contributing to my muscle strength on different bikes - though obviously my general fitness will still benefit in terms of heart/lungs etc. In essence, are the muscle groups used _that_ different? Will I struggle to complete ITRO 100 miles on my first ride (given that I can already ride that distance comfortably now).

Cheers,
Dave.


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## dodgy (15 May 2008)

Another question (sorry), 'bents seem to have a very large chain (apart from the Mike Burrows FWD 'bents). They look like possibly 3 standard chains linked together? Given that chains need fairly regular changing, that seems like a significant maintenance cost?
Am I right?

Dave.


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## Andy in Sig (15 May 2008)

dodgy said:


> Thanks all, and taking on board Andy's comments, if I become a regular user of a 'bent, is it possible that the form I obtain whilst riding it will not be transferrable to my standard DF (which I will keep) and my MTB? I don't like the idea of 100+ rides on the 'bent not contributing to my muscle strength on different bikes - though obviously my general fitness will still benefit in terms of heart/lungs etc. In essence, are the muscle groups used _that_ different? Will I struggle to complete ITRO 100 miles on my first ride (given that I can already ride that distance comfortably now).
> 
> Cheers,
> Dave.



Somebody else will be better qualified than I to address the musculature question but what I would recommmend is this: don't do as I did and stop riding an upright altogether as I now find that anything more than five miles on one is very painful on the bum!


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## andharwheel (15 May 2008)

The fitness which is required for recumbents transfers well to upright bikes. I find that I have much more power and my hill climbing is better on my road bike when I use my trike a lot. Top recumbent riders such as Rob English and Sam Whittingham use upright bikes. Sam rides the track and Rob is a 1st cat road rider.


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## Fiona N (15 May 2008)

dodgy said:


> ...Will I struggle to complete ITRO 100 miles on my first ride (given that I can already ride that distance comfortably now).



Well, put it this way: I was cycling at least 300km a week including a long Sunday ride before I picked up my Windcheetah. So I reckoned the 80 miles or so from AVD to home was no problem - I mean, the A6 is pretty flat going north, isn't it. By the time I got to Preston, I felt like someone had replaced my hip flexors with red hot coals (not a usual sensation) and the muscle immediately above the knee (not the normal 'meat' of the quads) was beyond pain unless I slowed down and the nerves switched back on. I have never, ever been in so much pain on a cycle - no time trial, race, hill climb or interval rivalled that first Windcheetah ride. And the next day I spent lying in a dark room with a cool cloth on my forehead and a bucket of pain killers to hand as the DOMS established itself in muscles I didn't know I had.

I hope this gives a flavour of what you're in for. Mind you, the trip took well under 4 hours so there would have been pain involved even on an upright.

Since then, it's been much better


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## Fiona N (15 May 2008)

dodgy said:


> Another question (sorry), 'bents seem to have a very large chain (apart from the Mike Burrows FWD 'bents). They look like possibly 3 standard chains linked together? Given that chains need fairly regular changing, that seems like a significant maintenance cost?
> Am I right?
> 
> Dave.



Not really as the wear is spread over the longer chain so you get proportionately more life our of a longer chain i.e. 4 x longer chain last 4 x longer. Cleaning and lubing a 4x longer chain is a real drag especially when you can't reach the pedals from (my) normal lubing position just in front of the sprockets. This is especially a problem on the Speedmachine because of the chain tubes which restrict access to the chain. It's less of a problem with the Windcheetah (no chain tubes so I can pick my spot) and also the offset rear wheel means that the chain gets hit with less crap and water than on a normal set up. 

The chain tubes are altogether a mixed blessing - nice to keep your right inner calf grease-free but a problem when the chain's wet. Unless you dry and lube it thoroughly, rust is encouraged on the chain sections in the tubes which slow the drying of the water off the surfaces. I try not to ride the Speedmachine on wet roads which, in the Lake District, is a bit limiting 


On the muscles question - the main thing is that 'bents require you to control your legs close to horizontally, compared to an upright where your legs basically hang down and the main control required is lateral i.e. so your knees describe a circle in the same plane as the bike - no knees wobbling out to the side and whatnot. This is not dissimilar to what we do when walking (although, obviously the balance/proprioception is different) so the muscles are reasonably used to it and the main development is of strength for propulsion (you can test this by cycling at low resistance, very high cadence - if you're not used to it you'll find that your muscles get tired but it's not the usual quads but little muscles around the knees which you notice which are being called upon to perform outside their normal capacity and tend to limit how long you can ride at cadence >120 rpm. It can be learnt if you need to e.g. using a fixie)
Anyway, on the bents, hip-flexors get more of a work out as your legs have to be lifted in an extended position which isn't usual unless you're a ballet dancer and the lateral control of the knee alignment is also while the leg is extended making more use of the stabilising muscles like sartorius, ad and abductors and so on. 
You can prepare yourself with specific exercises to strengthen hip flexors, like standing straight leg lifts (combine with stretching as tight hip flexors can give lower back problems) and single leg squats for the knees (if you're really keen - single leg squats on a wobble board are the ultimate).

Have fun


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## dodgy (15 May 2008)

Fiona N said:


> Have fun



Well, it sure doesn't sound like it (fun) 

Dave.


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## NickM (16 May 2008)

dodgy said:


> This looks a bit nice - http://www.m5-ligfietsen.nl/site/EN/Models/Carbon_High_Racer
> 16.6lbs and roughly £2900.
> 
> Almost enough to convince me to ditch the idea of a new road bike!


If you ask me, every serious cyclist owes it to himself to try the thrill of riding a fast recumbent like the M5 (or a Velokraft, or a Challenge Fujin). Buying one would probably be a much more exciting addition to your stable than acquiring another upright bike.

My mate McDee, of this forum, has the M5 carbon high racer (the only one in the UK, as far as I know) and it does seem to be a pretty fast bike... well, fast enough for him to lap me in the last BHPC race, anyway 

You really need to try out a variety of recumbents before committing yourself, though - not everybody can master them, although having said that, high racers are less challenging than the lowest bikes. Why not come along to a BHPC race meeting? There will be some very nice machinery there (including some fine home-builds made by our talented engineer members). If you ask nicely, somebody will probably let you try theirs...


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## dodgy (16 May 2008)

Thanks Nick,

I am definitely getting more interested, the only problem is getting to see one in the flesh. There don't seem to be any dealers in my neck of the woods. I've emailed one of the dealers for more info, though.

I'm starting to veer (see what I did then?) towards a trike, mainly for ease of use in traffic, but I'm worried that I'll be sacrificing speed for this convenience.

I've virtually no interest in touring, I want something fast and comfortable. Shame one of the upright dealers don't sell these, a lot of them provide 3 years interest free which takes the sting out of the purchase quite a bit!

Dave.


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## NickM (16 May 2008)

Trikes are terrific fun downhill - they will always drop bikes on twisty descents, because you don't worry about falling over or leaving the ground on a bump. They are slower in other circumstances, but not by all that much - the extra weight and rolling resistance are somewhat compensated by the very low seat height (and thus improved aerodynamics). A Catrike 700 might suit you - Ian Fardoe, BHPC publicity man, rides one and comes to most of our race meetings.

You say that speed is a main concern, but I bet fun matters just as much... the thing is, riding a recumbent is very different, even if it _is_ still cycling. When you are enjoying yourself so much, performance numbers and comparison with other bikes seem to assume much less significance. Hence the well-known phrase or saying "recumbent grin" - like this:


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## dodgy (16 May 2008)

I've just come off the phone to Ian at trikesandstuff.co.uk and we've come to the conclusion that either a Catrike Speed or Catrike 700 will be a good match for me. I must admit, the styling is spot on (IMHO) and I reckon I'm sold on a trike rather than a 2 wheeler.

Just need to figure out how to pay for it!

Dave.


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## NickM (16 May 2008)

dodgy said:


> ...we've come to the conclusion that either a Catrike Speed or Catrike 700 will be a good match for me...


What have I done?  

MsM is seriously considering a Catrike Pocket - perhaps I should apply to Ian Buck for a commission!

And when you have acquired your trike (or whatever), or even before, you might want to consider joining the British Human Power Club* and meeting all the other nutcases open-minded funhogs 







*I'm the membership secretary, in case you hadn't guessed!


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## dodgy (16 May 2008)

One of the details I've spent the best part of 2 hours pouring over is gearing. The Catrike Speed has 20" wheels, hence I might run out of gears when going for it on the flat/downhill. The Expedition has a 26" wheel and the 700 (arguably the fastest) has 700c rear (drive) wheel. Given that some of my rides in North Wales will see me encountering some fairly steep climbs, am I best going for a Speed with Schlumpf (an extra £300!) high speed drive kit?
If it helps, on my DF bike I average around 18mph on rolling countryside when I'm in good shape. I think I'd rather have hill climbing ability at the risk of spinning out at 35mph ish.

Thoughts?

Dave.


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## ufkacbln (16 May 2008)

Dodgy - you have PM

Apart from that - Trikes are really BAD NEWS!

They are the sort of machines that cannot be ridden without a certain "naughtiness" and a childish streak!

They are solid, reliable and stable machines that enable fast riding with safety due to the braking and steering being so accurate and predictable.

I don't mean boringly predictable, just enough to promote an exciting ride.

I rode a Street Machine, a Hurricane and a Linear - but the Catrike will always be the favourite!

Chains are not a problem as wear seems to be less than on a short chained upright. Eqqually fitness is fitness. The muscle groups are different, but I also ride a Brompton, and a Thorn Nomad tourer (trikes don't go on trains) and the basic fitness is transferrable.


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## Johnny Thin (17 May 2008)

dodgy said:


> Thanks all, and taking on board Andy's comments, if I become a regular user of a 'bent, is it possible that the form I obtain whilst riding it will not be transferrable to my standard DF (which I will keep) and my MTB? I don't like the idea of 100+ rides on the 'bent not contributing to my muscle strength on different bikes - though obviously my general fitness will still benefit in terms of heart/lungs etc. In essence, are the muscle groups used _that_ different? Will I struggle to complete ITRO 100 miles on my first ride (given that I can already ride that distance comfortably now).
> 
> Cheers,
> Dave.



A few comments from my own experience:-

I don't do any rides slower on my bent than I did on my upright - though the very hilliest AAA audax ones are about the same.

I still ride uprights and can get up hills on them but I find it irritating as you don't use the whole of your muscle groups

There is one very hilly section of an audax which I have ridden many times as it's local - from Bewdley to Cleehill. I've done it 3x on upright and been bonking or on the verge of bonking every time. I've done it several times on 'bent and have never needed more than 5 mins' rest and a couple of swigs of water to carry on back home.

The week after I got my first bent, 3 years ago, I followed the routesheet of an audax which went from Shrewsbury round to Wales and Lake Verny. I was absolutely knackered, esp by one section before Verny, and blamed it on being new to bents. However last Saturday I did the same audax and was bonking on the same section, didn't stop for a 30-min rest this time but the same effect; though I wasn't as tired overall at the end of it.

I wouldn't dream of riding anything but a bent for 100 miles but you can see from my comments that they're capable of any terrain, and generally far less tiring.


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## NickM (17 May 2008)

dodgy said:


> ...am I best going for a Speed with Schlumpf (an extra £300!) high speed drive kit?


I think that I would want to ride the trike for a while in standard spec first, and see whether the extra complication/expense was really warranted.

50/40/26 with 11-32 on 700Cs gives you a range from 21" to 120", which might be plenty.


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## mcd (21 May 2008)

Just back from riding my carbon high racer in the Etape Caledonia sportif at the weekend. It was a lot of fun. Here's a quick review of what I think makes it a good bike:
'carbon' - while its not as light as claimed, this made it easier on the big climb - a paparazzi pic of me nonchalantly nearing the top of a hill in the big ring. 
'high' made it easier to speak with riders on uprights and make the most of drafting behind them. Also means I don't have the hassle of funny wheel sizes. Not only does having 700c wheels give a huge choice, by sacrificing some of the greater comfort of the recumbent I can use a faster pair of wheels - ones that would have been too harsh on an upright.
'racer' - the aerodynamics of the position was comparable with a really flat tuck on an upright (stomach on saddle, chin on the stem, elbows and knees tucked in). But I had this benefit for the entire ride (not just on free-wheeling descents) and did I not have to adopt a less aerodynamic position to get power to the pedals. 

Maybe not as fast as a low racer, but a bike well suited to roads over hilly terrain and riding with upright bikes.

dodgy - I see you've gone for a Cattrike Speedy - not one I've tried - but it's a recumbent, so you're going to have some fun! Enjoy.


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## dodgy (21 May 2008)

mcd said:


> dodgy - I see you've gone for a Cattrike Speedy - not one I've tried - but it's a recumbent, so you're going to have some fun! Enjoy.



Actually a Windcheetah 'Speedy' 

Dave.


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## NickM (22 May 2008)

mcd said:


> Just back from riding my carbon high racer in the Etape Caledonia sportif at the weekend. It was a lot of fun...


You got away with it, then? By swearing not to mention the P*nct*r* F**ry for weeks... 

Phew!!


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## mcd (22 May 2008)

Maybe it was getting the tubs topped up with by the Mavic support team that kept _them_ away. Whatever the reason, I'm sure its building up an over-confidence in tubs that will be my downfall when _they_ do decide to make a visit!!


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