# Group riding skills gap in UK road racing



## montage (21 May 2013)

I'm sure this article has popped up around and about, but I feel it deserves its own thread. 

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/...ls-gap-making-uk-road-racing-dangerous-37356/

In summary - too many people just jumping into racing and causing crashes - but not just at the lower end. Some super fit people are progressing fast and then mixing it with the higher categories, being fitter than their skill level.

On the other hand, surely racing is something we want to encourage and so adding another barrier both logistically and economically to the riders is not the ideal way of doing things?

Regarding the frequency of crashes, how are people finding it this year compared to years gone past? Although I don't have years and years of experience, this year has been extremely sketchy with a crash in most races I've entered (including a rider knocked off by the lead motorbike and a bird flying into the peloton which I guess isn't really the fault of riders. Every race seems to be a risk of limb and bike at the moment


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## benborp (21 May 2013)

There's a huge influx of new riders and some are very fit. I haven't managed to get to any road races this year but I had my first training ride at Herne Hill for quite a while this week. Some riders were raving at how good the session was, and it was quite fast, but the actual quality wasn't high at all. It was a real struggle to train well as the pace lines were accordioning terribly and old hands were finding it quite frustrating. I'd asked at the beginning if the nature of the sessions had changed much since I was last regularly there and I was advised by the coach to leave much wider margins for error than I was used to. He was right: gaps were disappearing so fast. In those circumstances it takes a lot more effort to stay safe and perversely, that much effort to keep on top of what is going on makes it so much easier to have a lapse and make a mistake yourself.


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## zizou (21 May 2013)

I have no experience to what it was like in the past to compare it to how it is now. However part of the solution is pretty simple and indeed is already being used for racing on the track.

For new riders to start racing on in Glasgow, Manchester, Newport etc they have to go through an accreditation process which covers the basics on how to ride and race safely - not only do new riders learn how to do things properly from the start but riders that keep doing stupid things will get pulled up by the coach and made to repeat the class. Seems the obvious thing to do for those wanting to start racing on the road too....not only will newcomers have a skills base to build on it can also have the positive impact on the quality of riding from those that do basically know what they are doing but do not yet have race experience and as a result get nervous and jittery around the bad riders and then start to make mistakes themselves.


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## festival (21 May 2013)

In my time at Herne Hill we were drilled over and over again by the likes of Dave Creasy and Russell Williams in the skills and just as important, the etiquette of riding correctly.
There have always been a few idiots riding bikes but the benefit of the old club system was, people were told in no uncertain terms by experienced members how to ride in a bunch and if they didn't they were sorted out.
Like a lot of things these days, people will not be told and because novices are generally fitter today they think they know it all.
In the days when Cycling in the UK was like a being in secret society a lot of guys stuck to time trials and rarely raced in a bunch leaving a hard core of roadies who had served their time and generally could be trusted to understand how a peloton works.
These are great times for UK cycling but while its fine that newcomers lack an appreciation of whats needed, the continued ignorance of some of the people I see and the unwillingness to learn is not acceptable.


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## oldroadman (21 May 2013)

zizou said:


> I have no experience to what it was like in the past to compare it to how it is now. However part of the solution is pretty simple and indeed is already being used for racing on the track.
> 
> For new riders to start racing on in Glasgow, Manchester, Newport etc they have to go through an accreditation process which covers the basics on how to ride and race safely - not only do new riders learn how to do things properly from the start but riders that keep doing stupid things will get pulled up by the coach and made to repeat the class. Seems the obvious thing to do for those wanting to start racing on the road too....not only will newcomers have a skills base to build on it can also have the positive impact on the quality of riding from those that do basically know what they are doing but do not yet have race experience and as a result get nervous and jittery around the bad riders and then start to make mistakes themselves.


 
I think you are probably right, but... once riders start doing a road accreditation, would there be two levels, closed circiut and road. Then the problems begin with the "where there's blame there's a claim" jackals. Just suppose you recive accreditation then cause a crash in a race. Next thing you, the organisers, anyone whose aunt is associated with the race, gets a writ, because that's how they work, scattergaun approach on the basis someone will keel over and pay. If it ever came to court, imagine the prosecution asking "you are accredited, by who?". You answer, say "BC, and the assessor was Jim Simith". Question to Jim Smith (for he would certainly be called "What is your qualification to enable you to accredit riders as safe?". See where this goes?
No matter how well intentioned - and trained - people may be, they make errors. It's akin to passing a driving test, having a crash, and blaming the examiner who passed you! You are only as good as the day of the test, as proved by the shocking toll of young and new drivers.
It's a big problem, fit people who have no peloton etiquette and even less tactical ability thinking that fitness and a nice bike equals a racer.
Some sort of compulsory training, but no "exam" may be the answer?


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## oldroadman (21 May 2013)

festival said:


> In my time at Herne Hill we were drilled over and over again by the likes of Dave Creasy and Russell Williams in the skills and just as important, the etiquette of riding correctly.
> There have always been a few idiots riding bikes but the benefit of the old club system was, people were told in no uncertain terms by experienced members how to ride in a bunch and if they didn't they were sorted out.
> Like a lot of things these days, people will not be told and because novices are generally fitter today they think they know it all.
> In the days when Cycling in the UK was like a being in secret society a lot of guys stuck to time trials and rarely raced in a bunch leaving a hard core of roadies who had served their time and generally could be trusted to understand how a peloton works.
> These are great times for UK cycling but while its fine that newcomers lack an appreciation of whats needed, the continued ignorance of some of the people I see and* the unwillingness to learn is not acceptable.*




I can agree with that 100%. Worse than a fool is an arrogant know it all fool.
Remember the stages of skills learning.
1. Unconscious incompetence
2. Conscious incompetence
3. Conscious competence
4. Unconscious competence

A lot of new riders are not even aware and remain at stage 1 until they get hurt (or someone else does) simply because they won't listen to experienced riders. The better ones at least get to stage 2, and then start to actually learn, and eventually may get to stage 3. Stage 4 is only acquired after a few years of solid experience, and that's one thing no-one can teach, unfortunatly.


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## VamP (22 May 2013)

There's some sketchy riding out there for sure, and I have given up on going for a good position in a race before simply on account of not trusting the riders around me, but I don't think that this is entirely a new development.

I do agree that club structures are 'better' at educating riders, although not by any means perfect. A lot of Sunday rides I see are packed full of sketchy riding. Compulsory training can only help so much. Ultimately people gain competence through riding more and learning over time. We all - newbies and experienced alike - have a vested interest in increasing our competence, so I wouldn't assume that vast numbers of newcomers are ''unwilling'' to learn. Sometimes they just need to be pointed in the right direction.


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## Noodley (22 May 2013)

oldroadman said:


> Some sort of compulsory training, but no "exam" may be the answer?


So following your "logic" the court process which you see as ensuing (no idea why) would be:

"So you have done training, but not passed an exam?"
"Yes"
"And who was your trainer?"
"Jim Smith"
"And has he passed an exam?"
"No idea"


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## fossyant (22 May 2013)

In general I have found the CC lot OK with group rides I have been OK, you get a few gaps etc.

But we have been having problems in the club I joined earlier this year. I have been in clubs for years and was used to riding very close to someone I knew and trusted. My new club is quite new, and its difficult to judge abilities. It has caused issues on runs. Lots of gaps being left etc etc. it's being worked on.

My old club we used to regularly do through and off and such, but it was a racing club, so was difficult for beginners to join. My new club has lots of ability, but is very social. The keeping together bit is causing a headache for the club secretary. It will come, and we are doing slow and faster rides.

I certainly wouldn't be road racing now with the discipline. I gave it up years ago as a third cat and stayed with TIme Trials.


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## Monsieur Remings (22 May 2013)

I'm very new to road and circuit racing and yet I understand already the issues being raised.

I'm not an old hand but have been riding with a club for around a year-and-a-half and wouldn't have dreamed of starting racing without this start. I know it's not long!

But, what I've found that reinforces the importance of the club rides is that some of the younger riders in my own club who I remember earlier in the year were some of the last riders I wanted to be stuck behind, or next to for that matter, are now entirely different riders as a result of this regular riding in a bunch. Many of them were 'told' straight they were half-wheeling, not maintaining a constant speed on the front or were just too erratic, overlapping etc. I remember at the beginning of my own club experience being told that I wasn't compensating when I hit an incline, meaning the rider behind nearly hit my back-wheel. You accept it because it's the done thing to admit that experienced riders are not in the wrong.

I don't know what the answer is to be honest but the last time I raced - last Thursday - some of the behaviour was appalling and always the same people. Cornering became a free for all where I felt that very few riders were sticking to their own line. Some riders cut across in front of the rider in front and have no sense of whether there is space and forgetting that if they cause a crash, they're likely to go down too.

The real shame of course is that a lot of riders out there will not reach their full potential because of all this. Firstly, because although riding in a bunch preserves energy for the right time to make a move, some riders will always prefer to ride to the side or at the front given the sketchy nature of that bunch riding, leading to unnecessary fatigue and mental energy expended in the wrong place. Secondly, a lot of amateurs who don't have the back-up of a team will not risk their best possessions...I've just bought a bike that would be awesome on the circuit (for which I already know I am more suited to than road races) but I'll be damned if I risk it before I've enjoyed it a bit on my own for fear of writing it off. How sad is that?


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## ayceejay (22 May 2013)

_Cornering became a free for all where I felt that very few riders were sticking to their own line._
I marshaled a local event recently and this cornering _"free for all" _was scary with some on the inside tumbling on to the grass verge or worse. Surely cornering and keeping your line is about as basic as it gets_._


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## Rob3rt (23 May 2013)

fossyant said:


> In general I have found the CC lot OK with group rides I have been OK, you get a few gaps etc.
> 
> But we have been having problems in the club I joined earlier this year. I have been in clubs for years and was used to riding very close to someone I knew and trusted. My new club is quite new, and its difficult to judge abilities. It has caused issues on runs. Lots of gaps being left etc etc. it's being worked on.
> 
> ...


 

@fossyant Policini test team?


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## fossyant (23 May 2013)

Aye, it's taking a bit of working through I believe - lots of new members and quite alot who haven't got the group riding experience yet. It will come.


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## Rob3rt (23 May 2013)

fossyant said:


> Aye, it's taking a bit of working through I believe - lots of new members and quite alot who haven't got the group riding experience yet. It will come.


 
I have ridden with a few of them because my club mate lives local over in Romily and is a member (you probably know him, the supremely likeable Chris Wilky) and has organised a few rides out from the cafe. They were all competent at least equal to my standard of group riding (which is "reasonable", not particularly good, I wouldn't race crits or road races with my level of skill, however have ridden chaingangs etc.) and also nice guys, except one bloke who was quite frankly, a shoot tip on wheels. Kept racing off the front of the group, then waiting, rejoining the group then smashing it up the outside of the line to the front again, he was all over the place, a danger to himself and others, he obviously didn't have a clue and was an ideal example of one of the reasons why I am not keen on riding sportives. Someone had to have a word in the end as he was making everyone anxious as he was an accident waiting to happen, he calmed down a bit, but it didn't do much good, on the plus side, his lack of etiquette meant he didn't know how to signal a mechanical, so when he punctured, everyone assumed he was just being a cock again and left him to it. Turned out he has previous!

Fantastic to essentially have a club house as a cycling club though, which is essentially what the cafe is.


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## BimblingBee (23 May 2013)

I think someone further up nailed it by saying that people join clubs/races/sportives/Tri's etc already very fit so can keep up with the experienced guys easily enough but cause absolute carnage at the same time!

Personally I don't get involved that much with racing as it's just not for me, but having been riding for 20+ years I've seen a massive change in the last few years in the speed/ability of people... Only this weekend I went to support the local 'slateman' triathlon and witnessed people riding 3/4 abreast, undertaking cars at junctions who were turning left, a person banging the near side of cars in order to get them to move to undertake them, and there was also a nasty crash were a chap overtook a car on a blind left hand bend and met a motorbike coming the other way which resulted in broken bones for the motorcyclist. These are the same guys who are very likely to be in your clubs!!

What the solution is I don't know, hopefully Darwin will be kind!


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## oldroadman (23 May 2013)

Rob3rt said:


> I have ridden with a few of them because my club mate lives local over in Romily and is a member (you probably know him, the supremely likeable Chris Wilky) and has organised a few rides out from the cafe. They were all competent at least equal to my standard of group riding (which is "reasonable", not particularly good, I wouldn't race crits or road races with my level of skill, however have ridden chaingangs etc.) and also nice guys, except one bloke who was quite frankly, a s*** tip on wheels. Kept racing off the front of the group, then waiting, rejoining the group then smashing it up the outside of the line to the front again, he was all over the place, a danger to himself and others, he obviously didn't have a clue and was an ideal example of one of the reasons why I am not keen on riding sportives. Someone had to have a word in the end as he was making everyone anxious as he was an accident waiting to happen, he calmed down a bit, but it didn't do much good, on the plus side, his lack of etiquette meant he didn't know how to signal a mechanical, so when he punctured, everyone assumed he was just being a cock again and left him to it. Turned out he has previous!
> 
> Fantastic to essentially have a club house as a cycling club though, which is essentially what the cafe is.


 
You get nitwits like that at all levels, sadly. They "prove" how good they are (not), and as you mentioned, when the puncture came, justice was served. The thing is whether he will learn from his experience, or just carry on being a c*ck. When I first started as a youngster, the senior club members would give you advice, then firmer advice, and then very robust advice if you didn't heed wise words. Being dropped by a small group of hard men (it was all men then, before certain people start responding, not my fault!) 30 miles from home is a lesson few forget.
This is what's missing, there is little grounding with a club for some of the new "racers" who think that a few sportives makes them proper riders fit to race. So the lack of skills shows and crashes happen. Worst of all is the sheer arrogance of some, who simply do not wish to learn from their betters (in all respects). A little humbleness and listening goes a long way. Nobody knows it all, and some know very little indeed!


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## Canrider (23 May 2013)

I suggest this 'new problem' has always been the reality. I just pulled out Fred Matheny's _Beginning Bicycle Racing_ (3rd printing, 1985), and the chapters on crits and road racing echo most of what's been said above: scared novices with deficient skills, lack of training in group riding, and crashes resulting from these. What he doesn't mention is 'fit novices progressing quickly without learning skills'.

When Fred wrote this book, the US system was thus:


> ...earning the right to upgrade to Cat III. This is by placing top 3 in 3 qualifying races, top 6 in 6, or competing in 8 or more sanctioned races. _But since many promoters merge IVs and IIIs there is little difference...the real change comes when upgrading to Cat II._


Reading the BC system, I see you need 10 points as a 4 to upgrade to a 3. And 40 as a 3 to upgrade to 2--that doesn't seem like a whole lot of points to progress, compared with the system quoted above. . Maybe what's needed is to up the points needed to change classification, make it a bit slower to progress up, particularly from 3 to 2?


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## Rob3rt (23 May 2013)

That doesn't solve the problem, that just keeps lots of maniacs together for longer! You still have people without the rudimentary skills racing and causing carnage.


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## Canrider (23 May 2013)

Rob3rt said:


> That doesn't solve the problem, that just keeps lots of maniacs together for longer! You still have people without the rudimentary skills racing and causing carnage.


Well, no, they either quit or they learn, really. Come on, the earlier complaint was that 'fit novices' were progressing too fast--surely the answer then is to keep them from progressing 'too fast', until they learn from experience!


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## montage (23 May 2013)

I think the idea of an accreditation is the best way forward. Not necessarily an exam, but just x many coached lessons on which you can be failed on should you happen to be a numpty. A small bit of coaching goes a long way, both in safety and tactically. The general advice seems to be "just enter one and have a go" which is great for encouraging participation, but learning the hard way can have dire consequences, and not only for yourself. There should be specific attention paid to what happens on the last lap/ bunch sprint, as these are frankly terrifying. Though half the issue here is lack of teamwork leads to a lack of leadouts, which often causes the speed to be too low causing a bunch that fills the width of the road, meaning people go for gaps in the middle of the bunch that just are not there in order to move up.

As said about, it is the risk of prized possessions that really makes racing scary for me. If I wreck my bike anytime soon, that's it for a long time unless I find a magic lamp. With such frequent crashes, I have to questions whether it is even worth it.


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## GrasB (24 May 2013)

montage said:


> As said about, it is the risk of prized possessions that really makes racing scary for me. If I wreck my bike anytime soon, that's it for a long time unless I find a magic lamp. With such frequent crashes, I have to questions whether it is even worth it.


A lot of club racers in my club have racing insurance which basically pays for a new bike if they crash.

The club always raises concerns about inexperienced riders in cat 4/3/2 races. But things are a little different over there, the last race I entered I spend over 10 miles at over 80km/h


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## Rob3rt (24 May 2013)

Canrider said:


> Well, no, they either quit or they learn, really. Come on, the earlier complaint was that 'fit novices' were progressing too fast--surely the answer then is to keep them from progressing 'too fast', until they learn from experience!


 
The thing is, if people are expected to learn good habits through experience, but are stuck in with a load of other lunatics, who are they going to learn from? It will just end up being like a high speed sportive, absolute chaos. It needs to come from a controlled environment (club runs, or formal training etc), IMO. Whether they move up through the categories or not, is IMO, a parallel issue, the main issue is that they end up competing without the required skills in the 1st place. IMO again, it doesn't really matter if they are endangering cat 2's or cat 4's, they are endangering people.

Some people are not good at gauging their own level of skill and whilst people don't want to be discouraging, if someone is being a doofus, racers are going to have to self police it and tell them to stop riding like a cock. If they continue after a friendly word, then after a sterner word, then still after being told flat out to shape the fark up, well, report every rule infringement or incident. It will only be a matter of time before they get pulled up by the relevant "authorities" right?

Clubs could probably play a part in introducing people to racing by babysitting newbies in a few races too, get a couple of newbies and a couple of racers who will survive easy, who just nurse the newbies round and give them advice as and when things happen in the context of the race. This is less possible in a crit, but in a road race, it is possible. I am sure this goes on in my club to some degree.

Just throwing some ideas out there but maybe clubs could organise their own training runs for newby racers and stipulate 1st time racers must do them before they are allowed to race in the club colours? The quality will of course will still depend on overall club standards, but it will prevent people joining a club just so they have a banner to race under. It will also prevent clubs coming into disrepute because of a nobber in their jersey wiping people out every week in the local RR series.


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## e-rider (26 May 2013)

wasn't cycling better as a minority sport?


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## Monsieur Remings (27 May 2013)

Rob3rt said:


> The thing is, if people are expected to learn good habits through experience, but are stuck in with a load of other lunatics, who are they going to learn from? It will just end up being like a high speed sportive, absolute chaos. It needs to come from a controlled environment (club runs, or formal training etc), IMO. Whether they move up through the categories or not, is IMO, a parallel issue, the main issue is that they end up competing without the required skills in the 1st place. IMO again, it doesn't really matter if they are endangering cat 2's or cat 4's, they are endangering people.
> 
> Some people are not good at gauging their own level of skill and whilst people don't want to be discouraging, if someone is being a doofus, racers are going to have to self police it and tell them to stop riding like a cock. If they continue after a friendly word, then after a sterner word, then still after being told flat out to shape the f*** up, well, report every rule infringement or incident. It will only be a matter of time before they get pulled up by the relevant "authorities" right?
> 
> ...


 
Great idea. There are a few old hands in my club who act as marshals for most of the local races so they know the score. Plus of course, to sign up for races, most organisers want to know which club you belong to, thereby acting as a sort of safety net for all those who may as well have been picked off the street. The impression I have had for most of my local races - both road and circuit - is, no club, no race.

Also, and as I said, where I race they have training sessions where you pay to get watched in a bunch which is also a good idea IMO, but it's not essential for taking part...perhaps it should be?


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