# Unusual frame needed for custom build project



## cameramanjim (15 May 2011)

Due to pressures on the home front I´me trying to reduce my bikes from four to three. I´ve decided to sell two of them and build one bike to replace them. The problem is, one was my single speed commuter, the other my hybrid ´shopping´bike. I´m keeping the two road bikes (winter & summer excuse accepted).

So I want to build a bike with a Sturmey 3 speed hub, caliper brakes, mudguards and, ideally the ability to mount a rack on the back. I´m probably going for 28mm tyres.

So I´m looking for a frame with horizontal dropouts that will handle the above. 
My search for one has been fruitless (discounting a couple of truly expensive frames by custom frame builders), the closest I´ve come has been the Kinesis Decade Convert2 which would have been perfect except it´ll only take mudguards if you´re running 23mm tyres. http://kinesisdecade.co.uk/product.php?id=3

I don´t suppose anyone has anything suitable knocking about (or know where I could find one)? 
The least important thing would be the rack mounts, if push came to shove.


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## cameramanjim (17 May 2011)

Job done. I´ve discovered the Surly Cross Check which fits the bill nicely.




cameramanjim said:


> Due to pressures on the home front I´me trying to reduce my bikes from four to three. I´ve decided to sell two of them and build one bike to replace them. The problem is, one was my single speed commuter, the other my hybrid ´shopping´bike. I´m keeping the two road bikes (winter & summer excuse accepted).
> 
> So I want to build a bike with a Sturmey 3 speed hub, caliper brakes, mudguards and, ideally the ability to mount a rack on the back. I´m probably going for 28mm tyres.
> 
> ...


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## corshamjim (17 May 2011)

Sounds good - I'll be interested to see it when you're done with the build. I hope it goes together easily.


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## MacB (17 May 2011)

Good choice, the Crosscheck is a great frame...it comes with 132.5mm rear spacing which can be hard to achieve on the Sturney hubs available in the UK.

If only there was somewhere you could get a wheelset that has the new 3 speed with the longer 175mm axle, not generally available in Europe, and is already spaced to 133mm as it was in a Surly Crosscheck frame quite recently  

On a more serious note, when I had my Crosscheck built up the mechanic was very complimentary about how well things fitted, an easy build as he said.


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## threebikesmcginty (17 May 2011)

MacB said:


> Good choice, the Crosscheck is a great frame...it comes with 132.5mm rear spacing which can be hard to achieve on the Sturney hubs available in the UK.
> 
> If only there was somewhere you could get a wheelset that has the new 3 speed with the longer 175mm axle, not generally available in Europe, and is already spaced to 133mm as it was in a Surly Crosscheck frame quite recently



Hey-wouldn't-that-be-a-coincidence-if-there-was-one-available-on-this-very-forum!


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## cameramanjim (17 May 2011)

threebikesmcginty said:


> Hey-wouldn't-that-be-a-coincidence-if-there-was-one-available-on-this-very-forum!



Are you serious Threebikes (or should that be onlythreebikes)? I´ve scanned the For Sale section but couldn´t see anything....


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## cameramanjim (17 May 2011)

Yes the mechanic who´s going to build mine recommended the Surly. You´ve lost me slightly on the technical side there (which doesn´t take much admitedly). I´ll show the mechanic who works here: http://www.thelondoncycleworkshop.co.uk/
Pleased you like your Surly build. Any pix?



MacB said:


> Good choice, the Crosscheck is a great frame...it comes with 132.5mm rear spacing which can be hard to achieve on the Sturney hubs available in the UK.
> 
> If only there was somewhere you could get a wheelset that has the new 3 speed with the longer 175mm axle, not generally available in Europe, and is already spaced to 133mm as it was in a Surly Crosscheck frame quite recently
> 
> On a more serious note, when I had my Crosscheck built up the mechanic was very complimentary about how well things fitted, an easy build as he said.


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## cameramanjim (17 May 2011)

corshamjim said:


> Sounds good - I'll be interested to see it when you're done with the build. I hope it goes together easily.


Will post a pic when it´s done. Hope to pick up the frame tomorrow. It´s my first build so v excited!


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## cameramanjim (17 May 2011)

threebikesmcginty said:


> Hey-wouldn't-that-be-a-coincidence-if-there-was-one-available-on-this-very-forum!



Ah yes, MacB...


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## corshamjim (17 May 2011)

I bought my XL-RD3 (axle length 177 mm) from SJSC (they also built it in to a wheel for me). It's a very slightly tight fit in my Pashley frame which I think is a bit less than 130mm. The XL-RD3 according to the catalogue is 130mm OLN so I guess it should fit the cross-check ok. Whether you want a great big drum brake though is another matter!


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## MacB (18 May 2011)

cameramanjim said:


> Ah yes, MacB...



Jim, the technical stuff isn't all that technical, you have an OLD or OLN measurement for a frame, that's the distance between the two rear dropouts. Standard for MTBs is 135mm and road is 130mm, the Xcheck is deliberately designed with 132.5mm to allow you to use either MTB or road hubs, the steel is springy enough to accomodate that movement.

The most common SA 3 speed hub was the AW, the modern version of this is the SRF3, in the new version the 175mm comes with an OLD of 127mm, the 163mm axle with an OLD of 117mm and the 148mm with an OLD of 108mm. The older AW hub would tend to come with OLD numbers at the shorter end, though new versionsof the AW offer the same axle choices as the SRF3. The only difference between the hubs is the shell itself, the AW is steel and the SRF3 is aluminium.

Now things may have changed but when I bought my SRF3 I couldn't get the 175mm axle length in Europe, it wasn't imported and I even tried the SunRace European HQ to no avail, so I had to order from the US.

You can respace any of the hubs, using SA spacing washers, but the axle length is the limiting factor as to how wide you can go. you need to have enough axle left to accept the anti roation washers and still have enough thread to fit the wheel to the bike.

If you are going with an SA 3 speed then I'd consult with your bike mechanic as to what he thinks re hub choice, OLD required, etc. You may find you're better off going with an SRAM or Shimano 3 speed, I think the sizes there are more conducive to modern frame spacing. If you are settled on a Sturmey then the wheelset I have for sale would be ideal for the Xcheck. I've done some more maths and seriously doubt these wheels have done 100 miles yet and the tyres and tubes are brand new but you can buy wheels alone and I'd adjust the price accordingly. The bar end shifter can also be fitted to the DT boss on the Xcheck.

I'm confident enough to say, show the wheelspec to your mechanic and ask him if it seems like a good deal, I'm also confident enough to say that your mechanic can inspect the wheels before you commit to paying for them.


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## cameramanjim (18 May 2011)

MacB said:


> If you are going with an SA 3 speed then I'd consult with your bike mechanic as to what he thinks re hub choice, OLD required, etc. You may find you're better off going with an SRAM or Shimano 3 speed, I think the sizes there are more conducive to modern frame spacing. If you are settled on a Sturmey then the wheelset I have for sale would be ideal for the Xcheck. I've done some more maths and seriously doubt these wheels have done 100 miles yet and the tyres and tubes are brand new but you can buy wheels alone and I'd adjust the price accordingly. The bar end shifter can also be fitted to the DT boss on the Xcheck.
> 
> I'm confident enough to say, show the wheelspec to your mechanic and ask him if it seems like a good deal, I'm also confident enough to say that your mechanic can inspect the wheels before you commit to paying for them.


Hi Mac
OK will show the mechanic your message. I was going for 28mm tyres or maybe 25mm, but other than that is sounds do-able. How old is the Sturmey?
Thanks
Jim


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## MacB (18 May 2011)

cameramanjim said:


> Hi Mac
> OK will show the mechanic your message. I was going for 28mm tyres or maybe 25mm, but other than that is sounds do-able. How old is the Sturmey?
> Thanks
> Jim



The wheelset is about 18 months old but has only ever been to the local shops and back, I seriously doubt it's covered 100 miles, but your mechanic could easily verify that just by looking. But I was maybe getting a bit keen with you earlier, it just seemed a match made in heaven, however the following may give some pause for thought.

The rims are the Mavic A719 which have an ERTO of 622-19(700c x 19mm internal width) the smallest tyre they'd be ok with would be 25mm. But I'd say they're best with 28mm or larger, they currently have 32mm on, and are fine to go up to the Xcheck clearance limit of 700x45 or 700x42 with mudguards.

If you're generally wanting to run 25s or 28s then these probably aren't the best choice for you, you'd want something like the Open Pro or Open Sport with an Erto of 622-15, or maybe the A317 with a 622-17 erto, but this may limit how big you could go. Though, these days, running bigger tyres on narrower rims seems to be more accepted but narrow tyres on too wide rims really doesn't give the best of rides....IMO.

It really depends on what you want to get out of the Xcheck, I deliberately chose mine due to the clearances and so chose a rim that would allow me to make the most of those clearances. The other alternative would be to have two wheelsets, maybe narrower for Summer and wider for the rest of the year. The frame I've replaced the Xcheck with is the Salsa Vaya, and Salsa and Surly are under the same ownership. It's basically a Xcheck with compact geometry and the ability to take disc brakes, but it has the same clearances, so my new wheels are still 622-19.


I'll leave you alone now


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## cameramanjim (19 May 2011)

Thanks - advice much appreciated! I often feel like I´m swimming around in the dark.
Jim



MacB said:


> The wheelset is about 18 months old but has only ever been to the local shops and back, I seriously doubt it's covered 100 miles, but your mechanic could easily verify that just by looking. But I was maybe getting a bit keen with you earlier, it just seemed a match made in heaven, however the following may give some pause for thought.
> 
> The rims are the Mavic A719 which have an ERTO of 622-19(700c x 19mm internal width) the smallest tyre they'd be ok with would be 25mm. But I'd say they're best with 28mm or larger, they currently have 32mm on, and are fine to go up to the Xcheck clearance limit of 700x45 or 700x42 with mudguards.
> 
> ...


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