# Flexitarian diet to save the world, and maybe you/us



## Blue Hills (17 Jan 2019)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-46865204


Must say I rather like the sound of this.

I am no vegetarian by any means but for a long time have, with the odd binge, only eaten minimal amounts of red meat.

Views?


----------



## Drago (17 Jan 2019)

I see one vegan woman in particular get very upset by this - "flexatarian = omnivore, get over it" she wrote on Twitbook.

Well love, I've news for you. Vegan = vegetarian, stop being poncy and get over it.

Now, where my bolt gun?


----------



## Yellow Saddle (17 Jan 2019)

Utter BS.


----------



## Joffey (17 Jan 2019)

Isn't the default diet flexitarian?


----------



## ColinJ (17 Jan 2019)

It sounds unlikely to catch on!

I can't see the point of eating such a small amount of meat and I reckon most carnivores won't either. If you can cut down to 1 burger a week or 1 steak a month then why not just become vegetarian and have done with it?

I would rather have nothing than a very limited amount of what I like. I don't drink alcohol because If I did then I'd want 30+ pints a week. Similarly, if I had bread in the house I would probably eat a whole loaf in 1 day.

I'll stick to zero meat intake!


----------



## slowmotion (17 Jan 2019)

Can I post another picture of my bacon sandwich????


----------



## bikingdad90 (17 Jan 2019)

I’m not a huge red meat eater or a starchy grain type of person so you could say I am a flexitarian.... or just following a varied and healthy diet.

My tea time looks something like this:
Monday was spaghetti bolognaise
Tuesday was fish and curly fries
Wednesday was pizza 
Tonight is Linda McCartney vegetarian pies 
And Friday is veg curry.


----------



## roadrash (17 Jan 2019)

bikingdad90 said:


> vegetarian pies



how many pies can be made out out of one vegetarian


----------



## glasgowcyclist (17 Jan 2019)

slowmotion said:


> Can I post another picture of my bacon sandwich????



Have you still not eaten it?
It must be rancid by now!


----------



## Blue Hills (17 Jan 2019)

ColinJ said:


> It sounds unlikely to catch on!
> 
> I can't see the point of eating such a small amount of meat and I reckon most carnivores won't either. If you can cut down to 1 burger a week or 1 steak a month then why not just become vegetarian and have done with it?
> 
> ...


Disagree with you colin, I think, or something on that spectrum may well catch on, for all sorts of reasons. . As I said I am on this spectrum already. Note it doesn't say one bit of meat a week. A few birs of meat won't make me gorge/OD on it but won't be going 100 per cent veggie either.


----------



## ColinJ (17 Jan 2019)

I wouldn't call the equivalent of one burger a week '_a few bits_'... Well, I suppose if you quartered the burger, that would do!


----------



## DRHysted (17 Jan 2019)

I caught the end of this at lunch time and was unimpressed by what I heard. Now I have read the entire segment I am still unimpressed, and seriously hoping that they start this after I'm dead. I have no dairy in my diet as I cannot digest it, so the dairy thing doesn't bother me. However nearly all fresh fruit or vegetables triggers my IBS, so my diet is very limited. The last few years thanks to loads of exercise and an unhealthy diet I am actually feeling the best I have been since I was a teenager could eat anything.

My Mum however found it most amusing as she is a livelong vegetarian, not through ideology but because she never liked the taste or texture of meat (she dislikes fake meat just as much). As a child (born 1947) she was informed she wouldn't be able to have babies, or live a long healthy life because of her lack of meat. I suppose you could say she's proven them wrong!

I'm afraid I have no plans on changing my diet (nor does my Mum). I'm sure if we wait a while someone will produce another diet.


----------



## Unkraut (17 Jan 2019)

slowmotion said:


> Can I post another picture of my bacon sandwich????


It will have gone off a bit by now, won't it?

Oops, beaten to it! Great minds and all that.


----------



## Unkraut (17 Jan 2019)

I can understand anyone being fed up, as it were, with being told what they should or shouldn't eat. But if a massive reduction in eating meat has so many benefits, why not? What is the reason for the resistance? This particular diet is not demanding total abstinance.

Why is a veggie or even vegan diet supposed to be such a bad thing? All the more so as you get older and the benefits become clearer.


----------



## DRHysted (17 Jan 2019)

Unkraut said:


> I can understand anyone being fed up, as it were, with being told what they should or shouldn't eat. But if a massive reduction in eating meat has so many benefits, why not? What is the reason for the resistance? This particular diet is not demanding total abstinence.
> 
> Why is a veggie or even vegan diet supposed to be such a bad thing? All the more so as you get older and the benefits become clearer.



What if it has no benefits, or makes you ill?


----------



## Blue Hills (17 Jan 2019)

ColinJ said:


> I wouldn't call the equivalent of one burger a week '_a few bits_'... Well, I suppose if you quartered the burger, that would do!
> 
> .


Well I am very very very slowly working through a stock of high quality sausages - i skin a single one once or twice a week and use the mince in a pasta meal that has so many tomatoes in one form and another (fresh, tinned, tube concentrate, sun dried bits)' I am surprised I haven't turned red.


----------



## Blue Hills (17 Jan 2019)

Oh here we are again in health and diet


----------



## mudsticks (17 Jan 2019)

The production *method* of meat or grain or dairy or vegetables is the thing that makes the difference in terms of planetary effect.

You can have 'bad' meat - factory farmed feed lot type stuff.

Or fairly 'benign' meat and dairy - pasture fed.

Just as you can have 'bad' arable and veg production - big scale agro-chemical farming, that destroys soil and habitat, pollutes atmosphere, and water.

Or 'benign' production of same - smaller scale, minimal tillage, that rebuilds soil, sequesters carbon, and uses natural pest control through rotation, and encouragement of biodiversity.

It's not so much the 'what', its more the 'how'.

That said, meat is energy intensive to produce--you need a lot of grazing for 1kg of beef, for example.

So we do need to see it as a luxury food really.

At time of press it is illegal to feed.commercial pigs food waste - so we have to feed them soya.

The conversion rate is better than other animals, but it is quite wasteful growing plant protein, to make animal flesh, when we could just eat the soya itself.
Same with chicken.

So until we can feed pigs food waste again pork should be seen as a high cost food too.


----------



## Pat "5mph" (17 Jan 2019)

mudsticks said:


> At time of press it is illegal to feed.commercial pigs food waste - so we have to feed them soya.


I didn't know that.
For what purpose is food waste from households and commercial premises collected, then?


----------



## mudsticks (17 Jan 2019)

Pat "5mph" said:


> I didn't know that.
> For what purpose is food waste from households and commercial premises collected, then?



It's hot composted, then used as fertiliser / soil conditioner.. Often added to the council greenwaste stuff..

I buy it in by the 15 tonne load.. So it does get reused.. Just not fed to animals.
Foot and mouth, and BSE put a atop to it.
Problem was it went too far As per.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (17 Jan 2019)

Yellow Saddle said:


> Utter BS.



Beef Steak?


----------



## slowmotion (17 Jan 2019)

[QUOTE 5505573, member: 9609"]composted for methane which can be used to generate leccy.

sadly the public couldn't be trusted to put food out suitable for pigs - apart from accidental contamination from metals glass etc that could seriously injure the pigs, I also worry there are too many seriously odd people around these days that may do strange things.[/QUOTE]
I read that some Allied POWs would put pieces of razor blade into what little food waste there was at their prison camps. The reckoned it would put a small dent in The Third Reich's ability to rear pigs.


----------



## Pat "5mph" (17 Jan 2019)

mudsticks said:


> It's hot composted, then used as fertiliser / soil conditioner.. Often added to the council greenwaste stuff..
> 
> I buy it in by the 15 tonne load.. So it does get reused.. Just not fed to animals.
> Foot and mouth, and BSE put a atop to it.
> Problem was it went too far As per.


Thanks for that.
I work for a large catering company, our food waste is abysmal, mostly not our doing, though, because we need to provide what the clients asks for.
We put food waste in the appropriate bins.
It is contaminated by paper, plastic, probably the odd bit of cutlery too.
I am doubtful of the actual recycling going on, the local council collects.

[QUOTE 5505573, member: 9609"]apart from accidental contamination from metals glass etc that could seriously injure the pigs[/QUOTE]
Yes.
Is there not a processing method for this waste?
If used as it comes, as fertilizer like @mudsticks said, it surely would harm some wildlife, farm workers would be harmed too.
Have you ever seen the interior of a food waste bin? 
We gave up on our domestic food waste bin, actually I can't see anybody in the street using theirs.
The smell, plus the danger of attracting rats, put us off.


----------



## Fab Foodie (17 Jan 2019)

Blue Hills said:


> Disagree with you colin, I think, or something on that spectrum may well catch on, for all sorts of reasons. . As I said I am on this spectrum already. Note it doesn't say one bit of meat a week. A few birs of meat won't make me gorge/OD on it but won't be going 100 per cent veggie either.


It’s already catching-on.
It’s essential and inevitable that we move in this direction.
It’s hardly deprivation to cut back on red meat.


----------



## Fab Foodie (17 Jan 2019)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Thanks for that.
> I work for a large catering company, our food waste is abysmal, mostly not our doing, though, because we need to provide what the clients asks for.
> We put food waste in the appropriate bins.
> It is contaminated by paper, plastic, probably the odd bit of cutlery too.
> ...


We use a bokashi bin and composter at home and have virtually zero food waste. All goes to grow next years veg :-))


----------



## Pat "5mph" (17 Jan 2019)

Red meat is expensive, ime the meat quality from the big supermarkets does not reflect the price.
Red meat from small, local farmers is much better, but of course even more expensive.
Some people might have already reduced their red meat intake because of price.
I confess to buying chicken to cook for the cat: I don't eat it, never liked the colour of the (dead) chickens here in the UK.
If you have seen butchers in the continent you'll know what I mean, unless things have changed there since I left 35 years ago.


----------



## Fab Foodie (17 Jan 2019)

A meat tax would be a good idea....


----------



## mudsticks (17 Jan 2019)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Thanks for that.
> I work for a large catering company, our food waste is abysmal, mostly not our doing, though, because we need to provide what the clients asks for.
> We put food waste in the appropriate bins.
> It is contaminated by paper, plastic, probably the odd bit of cutlery too.
> ...



When I've received a couple of loads of unscreened but composted waste then yes it has contained all manner of stuff.

Pretty much restocked my cutlery drawer with teaspoons!

I think they usually put it through some kind of magnetic process, to get the metal out.

There is definitely some plastic contamination.

Ultimately we shouldn't be wasting so much food in the first place.

If we valued it properly.

People at the production end see this.

Home composting is good, but can attract rats if yr not careful..
A compost heap is a nice warm hotel, with an all you can eat buffet, to a rat..

Bokashi is cool, if yr on it..

I can feed unsaleable veg to my pigs as it hasn't been near any processed food or plate waste.

But its not enough to fatten them.
They need some protein and fat (like us) atm that mainly comes from soya.

Some farms get pomace from cider factories, brewers waste, that sort of thing, but it's all very tightly controlled


----------



## mudsticks (17 Jan 2019)

[QUOTE 5505566, member: 9609"]lands worked hard now though. predicting low winter forage some of the barley barons seeded super fast high yield grass after the winter barley was cut, couple of cuts out of it in the autumn (there would have been some amount of fertiliser spread for that) - then ploughed and winter wheat put in. Some amazing arable land round here but no ground can take that sort of punishment.


As to the OP. if we don't start to adopt this type of diet we may not have a planet to live on (or at least an atmosphere to live in, l know the planet will still be here as a burnt cinder or something) _ a bit exaggerated I know _[/QUOTE]

The current thinking is maybe sixty years worth of harvests left, if we keep pulverising the bejeezus out of our soil using current aggro- business methods.

Too much gets lost to our rivers blown away on the wind, or eaten up by over cultivation...Growing big scale commodity crops to make quickest profit, not feed people.

So we end up with cheap bread, cheap sugar, cheap carbs, and fats to make us, and our livestock fat.
Not growing so much of the stuff we actually need to eat.


----------



## classic33 (17 Jan 2019)

If we all went to a vegetarian diet, the land to grow the foood required would be lacking. Leaving no real alternate option.


----------



## Fab Foodie (17 Jan 2019)

classic33 said:


> If we all went to a vegetarian diet, the land to grow the foood required would be lacking. Leaving no real alternate option.


I’m not sure that makes sense....


----------



## classic33 (17 Jan 2019)

Fab Foodie said:


> I’m not sure that makes sense....


When the land runs out, where does food get grown?


----------



## Ajay (17 Jan 2019)

classic33 said:


> When the land runs out, where does food get grown?


The land be would used to grow crops for people to eat rather than feeding them to animals.


----------



## classic33 (17 Jan 2019)

Ajay said:


> The land be would used to grow crops for people to eat rather than feeding them to animals.


We just kill every animal then?


Land required wouldn't match the population growth, year on year.


----------



## steveindenmark (18 Jan 2019)

I dont eat a lot of meat.

But if we stopped eating sheep, cows, pigs etc. Wouldnt they become extinct?


----------



## mudsticks (18 Jan 2019)

steveindenmark said:


> I dont eat a lot of meat.
> 
> But if we stopped eating sheep, cows, pigs etc. Wouldnt they become extinct?



There would be fewer farm animals if we stopped farming them so intensively and yes.

That wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, as they do produce greenhouse gases.
But herbivores in particular can be a useful part of a mixed farming system.
Their dung provides fertility, and permenant (rather than regularly ploughed up) grassland stabilises soil, a lot of vital buglife relies on grassland for habitat too.
Grass grows better than arable in many areas, look at our UK uplands for example.

So extensively grazed farm animals for some meat and milk are OK.

So people just eat a small amount, like you do.

It's when we start cramming them into sheds, then growing arable crops to replace their natural diet that it's not OK.
So, as you already do, ear less meat, and make sure the meat you do eat is produced well.



classic33 said:


> When the land runs out, where does food get grown?



This is a problem, if we keep building on our best soils ( often those around cities ) And go on hammering them with heavy machinery, and chemicals, there won't be any soil left to grow our food.

Soil is what we depend on for our survival - but we treat it like dirt :-(

We could grow enough food to feed ourselves, if we did it carefully, and gave a **** about this stuff. It's a complicated issue but there are people working on it, we just have to get informed a give a bit of a ....

Thankfully, better farming, and food production is moving up the agenda, its been ignored for too long.


----------



## Fab Foodie (18 Jan 2019)

classic33 said:


> We just kill every animal then?
> 
> 
> Land required wouldn't match the population growth, year on year.


It certainly won’t if we keep growing animals as food. That’s the point. It’s very inneficient use of available land. Feeding crops directly to people is about 90% more efficient, healthier for humans and healthier for the planet. We wil have to accept we are close to ‘peak meat’.


----------



## Blue Hills (18 Jan 2019)

Fab Foodie said:


> I’m not sure that makes sense....


Agree. For what land and substances are all these red meat animals living on? Or are they free roaming around towns, villages and countryside eating other living creatures?


----------



## mudsticks (18 Jan 2019)

Fab Foodie said:


> It certainly won’t if we keep growing animals as food. That’s the point. It’s very inneficient use of available land. Feeding crops directly to people is about 90% more efficient, healthier for humans and healthier for the planet. We wil have to accept we are close to ‘peak meat’.



Yes we passed peak meat some time ago. 

But as ever we've continued exploiting other people's lands, for our greed. 

I
We've mported animal feed, or imported meat, so we can stuff our faces, with the cheap stuff . 

Because we have the £££

Meanwhile other countries soil is degraded, land that used to be used for growing food for the people there is robbed, to grow export crops.

Which all contributes to famine, civil wars, refugee crises etc etc. 
It's all interconnected, but we can't see it, I guess cos we don't want to..


----------



## Illaveago (18 Jan 2019)

It seems as though meat is under attack from all sides at the moment . Admittedly we could all cut back a bit as we are not all Olympic athletes needing to consume vast amounts in order to produce that amount of energy.
What I dislike is the Vegan/ Vegetarian attitude that they are saving the planet! The Simon Reeve programme tour around the Mediterranean was a real eye opener. Especially when he visited Southern Spain! 50 sq miles of plastic poly tunnels used for growing vegetables for the European market. The workers, immigrants ! Were treated as slaves and some had died working in the extreme heat! The other thing raised in the programme was the way in which the old plastic sheeting was disposed of! It was just dumped, and ended up finding its way into river courses and finally the sea.
What was also pointed out , was that the farm was right next to a main road clearly visible to EU officials who seem blind as they pass by it!


----------



## Ajay (18 Jan 2019)

classic33 said:


> We just kill every animal then?
> 
> 
> Land required wouldn't match the population growth, year on year.


We kill them already! We won’t completely stop growing animals today, it will be a gradual thing. As demand falls so will supply.
We already produce more than enough food globally to feed everyone now, and into the future. For various reasons we’re not very good at distributing it, that’s quite a big issue in my opinion.


----------



## mudsticks (18 Jan 2019)

Illaveago said:


> It seems as though meat is under attack from all sides at the moment . Admittedly we could all cut back a bit as we are not all Olympic athletes needing to consume vast amounts in order to produce that amount of energy.
> What I dislike is the Vegan/ Vegetarian attitude that they are saving the planet! The Simon Reeve programme tour around the Mediterranean was a real eye opener. Especially when he visited Southern Spain! 50 sq miles of plastic poly tunnels used for growing vegetables for the European market. The workers, immigrants ! Were treated as slaves and some had died working in the extreme heat! The other thing raised in the programme was the way in which the old plastic sheeting was disposed of! It was just dumped, and ended up finding its way into river courses and finally the sea.
> What was also pointed out , was that the farm was right next to a main road clearly visible to EU officials who seem blind as they pass by it!



Yes this is the problem..
A very complex issue gets reduced down to

meat=bad

Veg =good.

It's far more complicated than that.
Basically we need to relocalise,
(that doesn't mean no imports of stuff like tea coffee chocolate and the odd banana)

Grow more of our own food, more carefully.
Some of which can be meat and milk.
But more plant based on the whole.

Stop wasting so much food, and cease trucking it about so far, and over packaging it..

There are no simple, broad brush solutions to this complicated problem.

Producing sufficient, nutritious, appropriate food, for everyone could be done.
We just need different approaches.




Ajay said:


> We kill them already! We won’t completely stop growing animals today, it will be a gradual thing. As demand falls so will supply.
> We already produce more than enough food globally to feed everyone now, and into the future. For various reasons we’re not very good at distributing it, that’s quite a big issue in my opinion.


Yes we've passed the point now where globally there are as many health problems caused by overeating, as there are caused by lack of calories.

It's the wrong food, in the wrong places that's the problem.

Not a global lack of calories.
And right now a lot of those food calories, are produced, and distributed by fossil fuel calories.. This cannot continue.
Tis unsustainable planetarywise

The trouble is that most of the journalism, and research, and talk is done by folks who haven't spent much time working in the food or farming industries. 
Or who don't really understand how natural ecological systems (of which we are a part) actually work.

They think they can just charge in, with the next big idea, ignore generations of 'boots on the ground' knowledge, and throw some new tech, whether that's machinery, chemical, or gene editing at it, and that all will be well.
The same mindset, that created the problem. 

It takes decades to learn really. good farming and growing (I'm not there yet) and understand how a particular piece of land works. 
But it also takes observation, humility, and acceptance that we are not 'top of the tree' as humans.

This is our main problem I think - sheer arrogance, that we can dominate, and endlessly exploit, the very natural systems upon which we depend.

Can we learn to live more lightly, in time?
Remains to be seen.


----------



## colly (18 Jan 2019)

We as a family began to eat less meat as time went by. I would happily eat a vegitarian diet and I can see no good reason why not to. Mrs Colly though does like a bit of dead animal with her veg. I just go along with it but some meals I'll skip meat altogether. 
I do enjoy my bacon sarnies and sausages though.


----------



## mickle (18 Jan 2019)

Again, for those at the back.


----------



## Unkraut (18 Jan 2019)

DRHysted said:


> What if it has no benefits, or makes you ill?


If any one diet makes you ill, change it. With a vegan diet in particular unless it is done well it can lead to vitamin deficiences. It does require a bit more time and effort to make it work. You don't have to adhere strictly to a diet if it turns out in the long run to running low on required vitamins.

My own doctor is happy with veggie, a bit sceptical about vegan, though not anti.

Whatever diet you have if you are consuming vast quantities of sugar its not going to do you much good.


----------



## Ajay (18 Jan 2019)

It’s only B12 that could possibly be an issue in a plant based diet, but it’s easy to get enough.


----------



## Fab Foodie (18 Jan 2019)

Ajay said:


> It’s only B12 that could possibly be an issue in a plant based diet, but it’s easy to get enough.


...and bacon....


----------



## mudsticks (18 Jan 2019)

Fab Foodie said:


> ...and bacon....



I wonder what is it about bacon in particular.

Sometimes I think it might be a latent cannibalistic tendency within us all - apparently human flesh tastes like bacon.

Or is it just the salt cravings after a sweaty ride.


----------



## Fab Foodie (18 Jan 2019)

mudsticks said:


> I wonder what is it about bacon in particular.
> 
> Sometimes I think it might be a latent cannibalistic tendency within us all - apparently human flesh tastes like bacon.
> 
> Or is it just the salt cravings after a sweaty ride.


It’s because our God loves us and wants us to be happy. Other deities want their followers to be more miserable.
I think that’s the reason....


----------



## Blue Hills (18 Jan 2019)

mudsticks said:


> Il apparently human flesh tastes like bacon.
> 
> .



You countryfolk and your worrying expertise. Can imagine lost hikers of a stormy evening staggering thankfully into your warm welcoming looking local, settling in for a beer and a chat and one of you lot opening the conversation with: "did you know ......


----------



## mudsticks (18 Jan 2019)

Fab Foodie said:


> It’s because our God loves us and wants us to be happy. Other deities want their followers to be more miserable.
> I think that’s the reason....



i thought beer crisps ( and bicycles) were the primary signs of Gods love.

His munificence is indeed manifest ...


----------



## mudsticks (18 Jan 2019)

Blue Hills said:


> You countryfolk and your worrying expertise. Can imagine lost hikers of a stormy evening staggering thankfully into your warm welcoming looking local, settling in for a beer and a chat and one of you lot opening the conversation with: "did you know ......



Have you seen the film " Delicatessen"??

And you must also remember, that us country folk have a long history of being required to provide our own entertainments ...


----------



## classic33 (18 Jan 2019)

Blue Hills said:


> You countryfolk and your worrying expertise. Can imagine lost hikers of a stormy evening staggering thankfully into your warm welcoming looking local, settling in for a beer and a chat and one of you lot opening the conversation with: "did you know ......


I know of one country pub, with nearby campsite, with an undertaker in the family.


----------



## mudsticks (18 Jan 2019)

classic33 said:


> I know of one country pub, with nearby campsite, with an undertaker in the family.



Not forgetting that pigs themselves have been known to partake of human flesh..

Oh my crikey - it suddenly all got rather sinister on here


----------



## dave r (18 Jan 2019)

mudsticks said:


> Not forgetting that pigs themselves have been known to partake of human flesh..
> 
> Oh my crikey - it suddenly all got rather sinister on here



Didn't someone murder their wife and feed her remains to his pigs?


----------



## mudsticks (18 Jan 2019)

dave r said:


> Didn't someone murder their wife and feed her remains to his pigs?



A few pig farmers have been consumed by their beasts, when they've dropped dead mid feeding time. 

And its the classic gangster body disposal method. 

Eeek how did we get here??
Mods help!! This is getting a bit dark !!


----------



## dave r (18 Jan 2019)

mudsticks said:


> A few pig farmers have been consumed by their beasts, when they've dropped dead mid feeding time.
> 
> And its the classic gangster body disposal method.
> 
> ...



Pigs seem to be true omnivores.


----------



## DRHysted (18 Jan 2019)

Unkraut said:


> If any one diet makes you ill, change it. With a vegan diet in particular unless it is done well it can lead to vitamin deficiences. It does require a bit more time and effort to make it work. You don't have to adhere strictly to a diet if it turns out in the long run to running low on required vitamins.
> 
> My own doctor is happy with veggie, a bit sceptical about vegan, though not anti.
> 
> Whatever diet you have if you are consuming vast quantities of sugar its not going to do you much good.



Hence why I will not be changing to this new advised diet, it would make me ill. 

These things are marvellous for rounding everyone into a group and coming up with a one size fits all, neglecting the fact that we are all individuals, some of us do have different requirements. 

Unless my doctor contacts me to inform me I need to change, I will ignore all the politicians, journalists, and online experts. I will however still need to explain it to the Nurse when I have my check up next year.


----------



## classic33 (18 Jan 2019)

mudsticks said:


> Not forgetting that pigs themselves have been known to partake of human flesh..
> 
> Oh my crikey - it suddenly all got rather sinister on here


And a real life "Sweeny Todd" round these parts. Only it was people who worked for her.


----------



## Blue Hills (18 Jan 2019)

DRHysted said:


> Hence why I will not be changing to this new advised diet, it would make me ill.



Don't quite understand you if you are refering to the one in my initial post. Surely it's rather flexible? It's not saying eat only fruit and veg and no meat. You can mix it as you see fit. It's not "one size fits all" at all. Just had my patented past meal - about 60g pasta, one sausage as mince donor, ton of small tomatoes from south London market, tinned tomatoes, sun dried, tomato from a tube, various spices. Other bits. Feel great. Not heavy at all - easy to digest. As only a small bit was meat and first meat I have had in maybe two or three days.


----------



## mudsticks (18 Jan 2019)

Blue Hills said:


> Don't quite understand you if you are refering to the one in my initial post. Surely it's rather flexible? It's not saying eat only fruit and veg and no meat. You can mix it as you see fit. It's not "one size fits all" at all. Just had my patented past meal - about 60g pasta, one sausage as mince donor, ton of small tomatoes from south London market, tinned tomatoes, sun dried, tomato from a tube, various spices. Other bits. Feel great. Not heavy at all - easy to digest. As only a small bit was meat and first meat I have had in maybe two or three days.



Tsk Tsk, for all this moderation Blue Hills. 
You must have very definite, totally this, or totally that views... 

I am 100% correct and I'll fight anyone who says otherwise. 

All this "Well it depends " And "Context is everything" etc etc

Is really very tiresome for those of us who have come here for a proper old controversy, and slanging match. 

Personally, I would have served the above with a green salad, being a bit of a chlorophyllaphile, but otherwise it sounds very nice..


----------



## Blue Hills (18 Jan 2019)

and I'm now in the pub with a pint 

a very balanced diet - no hair shirt.


----------



## mudsticks (18 Jan 2019)

Sat at home, with bottle of beer, pizza...

And salad.
As you say, balance in all things 

Salut!!


----------



## classic33 (18 Jan 2019)

Blue Hills said:


> and I'm now in the pub with a pint
> *
> a very balanced diet *- no hair shirt.


One in each hand?


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (22 Jan 2019)

Fab Foodie said:


> A meat tax would be a good idea....



This is the latest vegan nut job idea by the looks of it. Some strident vegan campaigner type was being interviewed on the radio the other week, and it was the same old story. How all the rest of us should give up meat just because a bunch of weirdos who want to "save the planet"and "stop exploiting animals" think it's OK to try to impose their oddball beliefs on everybody else. They seem to have a lot in common with the militant feminist brigade, in fact there is probably a lot of overlap between the two groups. If an individual chooses not to eat meat or whatever, that's their own personal choice, but I'm getting sick of these various pious campaigning type trying to convert the rest of us. It isn't going to work; I eat some sort of meat virtually every day and I have no intention of changing to please anyone else.


----------



## mudsticks (22 Jan 2019)

I think the idea of the meat tax is largely to do with reflecting its true cost in environmental impact terms. 

It is a luxury food if you do the figures. 
Even pasture fed meat, where animals are finished primarily on grass. 

Like how we probably do need to tax polluting fossil fues at a higher rate if we are going to address climate change, in order that we hand on a habitable planet. 

It doesn't have to stop people eating meat altogether, but it might acknowledge its true cost. 
It's not a left wing conspiracy against meat eaters, its just recognising reality. 

I'm no big fan of the moralising tone taken by vegans either..There is a lot of anthropomorphasising that goes on.

Meat isn't murder, meat is the flesh of slaughtered animals, which yes should be raised and killed with respect but if you calculate the true cost, especiially of the cost of the food those animals eat, it does need to be more expensive. 
Currently the 'cost' of cheap meat is externalised onto the environment. And poor animal welfare. 

I raise pigs outside where they have a nice time rootling around outside, they are killed in a small abattoir locally, so they have a short journey to their low stress end. 

But raising animals properly like this is costly, it doesn't mean you can't have a bacon sarnie now and then, but it will cost lore. 
Tastes amazing though, and you can enjoy it even more knowing those animals have had a decent life, and a x compassionate death. 

Of course if you don't recognise the importance of, or care about any of the on the ground issues surrounding meat production then all of this will fall on deaf ears. And the whole polarised, and ill informed shouting match continues. 

But it doesn't change the reality of the situation.


----------



## Fab Foodie (22 Jan 2019)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> This is the latest vegan nut job idea by the looks of it. Some strident vegan campaigner type was being interviewed on the radio the other week, and it was the same old story. How all the rest of us should give up meat just because a bunch of weirdos who want to "save the planet"and "stop exploiting animals" think it's OK to try to impose their oddball beliefs on everybody else. They seem to have a lot in common with the militant feminist brigade, in fact there is probably a lot of overlap between the two groups. If an individual chooses not to eat meat or whatever, that's their own personal choice, but I'm getting sick of these various pious campaigning type trying to convert the rest of us. It isn't going to work; I eat some sort of meat virtually every day and I have no intention of changing to please anyone else.


That’s ok. I can’t argue against ignorance.


----------



## Fab Foodie (22 Jan 2019)

mudsticks said:


> I think the idea of the meat tax is largely to do with reflecting its true cost in environmental impact terms.
> 
> It is a luxury food if you do the figures.
> Even pasture fed meat, where animals are finished primarily on grass.
> ...


Absolutely.


----------



## Blue Hills (22 Jan 2019)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> This is the latest vegan nut job idea by the looks of it. Some strident vegan campaigner type was being interviewed on the radio the other week, and it was the same old story. How all the rest of us should give up meat just because a bunch of weirdos who want to "save the planet"and "stop exploiting animals" think it's OK to try to impose their oddball beliefs on everybody else. They seem to have a lot in common with the militant feminist brigade, in fact there is probably a lot of overlap between the two groups. If an individual chooses not to eat meat or whatever, that's their own personal choice, but I'm getting sick of these various pious campaigning type trying to convert the rest of us. It isn't going to work; I eat some sort of meat virtually every day and I have no intention of changing to please anyone else.



Strong words there john. No idea how much meat you eat but you may possibly feel better with less. I think you are safe from police of any sort bursting in to snatch your chosen food. I don't agree with the idea of a meat tax - indirect taxes hit those on restricted incomes disproportionately.


----------



## mudsticks (22 Jan 2019)

[QUOTE 5510481, member: 9609"]very much so - it needs to become a luxury food that we can enjoy on special occasions.

Yes it does

it would be a win win win, better for the environment, better for the livestock and better for us[/QUOTE]



Blue Hills said:


> Strong words there john. No idea how much meat you eat but you may possibly feel better with less. I think you are safe from police of any sort bursting in to snatch your chosen food. I don't agree with the idea of a meat tax - indirect taxes hit those on restricted incomes disproportionately.



But this is also true, - we need to address many issues of 'good food availability for all'

I'm part of project, and Union work that looks at ways of making good food and diets available to everyone 
Not just 'The Waitrose' brigade... A lot of this is to do with shortening supply chains, relocalusing, and getting more people into farming and food production.
De industrialing agriculture basically, so that its done for nutrition, environment and benefits people as well as being profitable.
And not relying so much on imports. 

You could call it 'food justice' work I guess. 
ATM the supermarkets take most of the profit, on average 8p in the pound gets back to the primary producer. 

Gaining some traction with gov departments, but its complex work, with lots of different stakeholders.

An interesting time to be involved in both the practical, but also political farming scene.


----------



## mudsticks (22 Jan 2019)

[QUOTE 5510527, member: 9609"]and yet the biggest consumers of red and processed meats is from lower income households. (part of our society that also has the poorest health, is there a part connection?)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4351901/

High meat diets have been proven over and over again to be poor for our health, so if higher meat prices reduced our intake then that would be a good thing.

use the taxes raised from meat to subsidies fruit and veg.[/QUOTE]

We certainly need more support for local veg and fruit production in this country. 
ATM there is barely none. 

Cheap f&v is imported from places like Spain, where growing it is having consequences detailed above.

Yes poorer income households tend to have poorer diets. 
Many causes there.. 
Availability of fresh food in that area, a disproportionate of their income being spent on inflated housing costs, so not much ££ for good quality food, people working long hours for low wages, so not having time, or energy to cook from scratch, etc etc.
Or even the facilities or knowledge in some cases. 

Trouble is we have to be careful not to come across all nanny state, or judgey when talking at other peoples diets. 

Even though the health benefits of increased f&v consumption are proven.


----------



## Tiger10 (22 Jan 2019)

This idea is simply a sticking plaster for the real underlying problem.... too many people. It's simply putting the problem off and in the end there won't be room for many animals birds or insects unless they are prepared to live with us ie rats pigeons and cockroaches.


----------



## mudsticks (22 Jan 2019)

Tiger10 said:


> This idea is simply a sticking plaster for the real underlying problem.... too many people. It's simply putting the problem off and in the end there won't be room for many animals birds or insects unless they are prepared to live with us ie rats pigeons and cockroaches.



It's not either or though, in terms of addressing issues. 
. 
Birth rates in many Westernised countries are actually falling. 
And we are the ones who do most of the consuming. 
Wider availability of birth control, and true empowerment of women so that their status and security isn't all wrapped up in being married or having kids could help with that, a lot, but there's only so much we can fix.

We can however (or at least most of us can) do something about our daily food choices, and it does have an impact, on what is produced, and how. 

You vote for "more of this please" with your ££ every time you go into a shop, or buy something online.


----------



## Blue Hills (22 Jan 2019)

mudsticks said:


> It's not either or though, in terms of addressing issues.
> .
> Birth rates in many Westernised countries are actually falling.



Very true. Particularly in Italy. There must be something in the pasta.


----------



## Threevok (22 Jan 2019)

I've not eaten meat now for nearly two weeks - despite eyeing up the cat's food 

If anything, my emissions have increased


----------



## mudsticks (22 Jan 2019)

Dogtrousers said:


> Seems like a bit of a no brainer really. Meat production is wasteful of resources and a significant producer of greenhouse gas. Less meat production will tend towards better use of certain classes of land and reduced emissions (grow food for people, not for animals).
> 
> Add to that the fact that meat for every meal every day is a relatively recent phenomenon it would do no one any harm, nor cause any distress, to move in that direction.
> 
> ...



Yes the idea of our eating meat everyday, or at every meal is a very recent idea.
Only made possible by industrialised agriculture, which clearly can't continue in its present form - there's plenty of evidence out there as to why this is the case.

Its not to say don't eat it all - just see it as the scarce and expensive resource that it is - appreciate what went into it.

Find out, and care about, how it was produced - thats not being an 'oddball' that's being an informed and engaged, grown-up human being.
But as you say some folks will maintain they are being 'preached at' when all you are doing is raising awareness.

In some cases - such as in cool temperate grasslands meat and milk are more easily produced on grazing where other crops don't grow.

I believe black pudding is very high in iron too.

It does makes sense that if something is going to die for our dinner, we should at least use all of it up.


----------



## Threevok (22 Jan 2019)

mudsticks said:


> It does makes sense that if something is going to die for our dinner, we should at least use all of it up.



True, there is very little of a pig that isn't used.

Trouble is, now they are saying a rasher of bacon is like smoking 5 cigarettes.


----------



## Fab Foodie (22 Jan 2019)

Whilst a meat-tax appears both draconian and regressive, we should think of it more as a ‘nudge-tax’ to change behaviours. 
I don’t see this as nanny state. People will still have choice where to spend their money. Cigarettes, Alcohol, Meat. Nobody needs either of those, they are all injurious to health, wealth and particularly for red meat, the environment. Yes they are nice, luxuries maybe, but not necessary for a decent life.


----------



## mudsticks (22 Jan 2019)

Fab Foodie said:


> Whilst a meat-tax appears both draconian and regressive, we should think of it more as a ‘nudge-tax’ to change behaviours.
> I don’t see this as nanny state. People will still have choice where to spend their money. Cigarettes, Alcohol, Meat. Nobody needs either of those, they are all injurious to health, wealth and particularly for red meat, the environment. Yes they are nice, luxuries maybe, but not necessary for a decent life.



Exactly, and if you look at 'normal diets' pre industrial agriculture - 

(Which has gone really heavy, on processed carbs, saturated fats, sugar, and processed meats - because these are easier to store, transport, and produce with diesel and oil derived products, rather than human skill) 
.
Or look at peasant style diets - like those still found around the Med, and indigenous cuisines such as in Japan, they tend to be big on fresher (and yes more perishable) plant derived foods, then they have a moderate amount of fresh meat or some fish chucked in now and then, as well..

And these are reckoned to be healthiest diets, and more often than not they're really tasty, and varied too. 

It's not a massive suffer-fest to eat like that really is it??


----------



## classic33 (22 Jan 2019)

mudsticks said:


> It's not either or though, in terms of addressing issues.
> .
> Birth rates in many Westernised countries are actually falling.
> And we are the ones who do most of the consuming.
> ...


Birth rate is still over twice the death rate, globally.

Edited to add link
https://www.medindia.net/patients/calculators/worldpopulation.asp


----------

