# Folding bike modification questions



## snazpizaz (17 Jun 2018)

Hi

I'm looking to purchase two folding bikes and have a couple of general questions about making modifications.

General questions: 
Wheels:
1. Can i replace bike-frames fitted with 451 wheels with generic 20" wheels ?
2. Can i replace 20" wheel bike-frames with external / derailer gears with a rear 20" gear hub wheel ?
3. Can i replace generic 20" front wheels with a 20" electric kit wheel ?
Handle bar posts:
4. Some folding handle bar posts dont have an ability to adjust and are of fixed length. Can i remove any supplied fixed handle bar post and fit with an outsourced adjustable one ?
Breaks:
5. On 20" wheel frames can i replace generic lever breaks with disc breaks ?
Weight:
6. I've been told that indicated folding bike weights often leave out weight of items like pedals, handlebars, kickstands and other items. Is there a general rule or formula when trying to figure out real weight of a folded bike when looking at specs ?

The bike models i'm looking at are listed below and also any advice or links to recommended modification products welcome. 

1. Carrera Intercity
http://www.halfords.com/cycling/bikes/folding-bikes/carrera-intercity-folding-bike-grey 
2. Dahon Mariner D8 2018
https://dahon.com/bikes/mariner-d8/ 
and
3. Euromini Liberte
https://www.euromini.bike/shop-libere 
4. Tern Link D8 2018
https://www.ternbicycles.com/uk/bikes/474/link-d8
5. Tern verge N8 2018
https://www.ternbicycles.com/bikes/474/verge-n8

Thanks alot for your time and attention. Appreciated.

sp


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## Cycleops (17 Jun 2018)

Can't help you out on all the questions but I'd advise buying a bike with the features you want as changing things later can be expensive/difficult/impossible. One such item is rim to disc brakes, this needs to frame specific so can be ruled out on all the models listed. Another is derailleur to hub gears, not impossible but difficult.
Handlebar posts sometimes have some adjustment incorporated on the better models.

I'd advise against buying something from a mail order company as problems can be difficult to sort. Choose a store that deals in folders. Worth a look at Decathlon too as they have some good products and you get the backing of reputable organisation. Halfords service can be a bit hit and miss.
Many smaller brands can be rebadged models of other manufacturers, #3 looks like this.

Good luck.


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## StuAff (17 Jun 2018)

snazpizaz said:


> Hi
> 
> I'm looking to purchase two folding bikes and have a couple of general questions about making modifications.
> 
> ...


1. If by 'generic' you mean 406 wheels, fiddly but possible to switch wheel sizes- Google for a few conversions. Tern do Verge models in both 406 and 451 wheel sizes, but the frames are different. Usually, people seem to have switched the other way. But if you want a 406-wheeled bike, just buy one. All of the ones you've listed have that wheel size anyway.
2. Yes. I have both (literally, SRAM DualDrive & Ultegra 9 speed) on my Dahon. But if you want a hub-geared bike, buy one.
3. Yes.
4. Depends what you've bought and what you want to replace it with. Dahon & Tern, almost certainly possible, but expensive. http://www.thorusa.com/accessories/handlebar.htm
5. Frame, no. Fork, yes (with a new fork). Again, if you want disc brakes, buy a disc braked bike.
6. No. But all the bikes you're looking at are at the heavier end anyway.


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## snazpizaz (17 Jun 2018)

Cycleops said:


> Many smaller brands can be rebadged models of other manufacturers, #3 looks like this.



Thanks - what bike do you think the Euromini Liberte is derived from ?
Thanks 
sp


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## snazpizaz (17 Jun 2018)

StuAff said:


> 6. No. But all the bikes you're looking at are at the heavier end anyway.



Thanks. 
I thought one or two of these were quite light. The euromini Liberte is 23lbs. The others are listed around 12kg but i'll remove the racks and fenders to bring them to around 11kg.

My budget is around the £800-1000 max - Are there any makes which would be lighter within that price range ? 
I've looked at BikeFriday and a couple of Terns and Dahons, but the prices jump into several Ks.

Thanks
sp


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## StuAff (17 Jun 2018)

snazpizaz said:


> Thanks.
> I thought one or two of these were quite light. The euromini Liberte is 23lbs. The others are listed around 12kg but i'll remove the racks and fenders to bring them to around 11kg.
> 
> *My budget is around the £800-1000 max - Are there any makes which would be lighter within that price range ? *
> ...


The only way you're going to get lighter bikes is to go second hand, spend more money, or both. Lightest Tern & Dahon models available now are around 10 kg. Some of the older Dahon models got much lighter than that. .https://www.world-wheels.co.uk/heliossl.htm. But considerably less stiff than modern frames and spare parts will be a pain to get hold of.


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## snazpizaz (18 Jun 2018)

Yes i noticed that even the Dahon and Tern bikes that cost 1000s don't necc deliver on reduced weight and where they do, they tend to be for racing and very high performance models alone. I've targeted the lowest weights available under £$1000 with more than 7 gears. - The only other option is the Dahon MU LX 2018 which is coming in at 10.2kg but doesn't seem available yet.

The euromini folk are an example of a small outfit utilising the Chinese market to explore cheap lightweight options. Chinese production is vulnerable to bad quality control but euromini are offering that as protection. In theory their bikes are breaking the mould.


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## Cycleops (18 Jun 2018)

I can’t think Euromini would spend the nessecary for development cost so I imagine it’s available elsewhere under another name.
Why the weight thing? Are you going to be carrying it for long distances or up stairs? Weight isn’t the only consideration, the shape of some folders can make them awkward to carry. You’re not going to notice a bit of extra weight on the road. You haven’t mentioned the most popular one, the Brompton. It’s no lightweight but it is the smallest fold and most reliable, plus resale values are very good and well supported by a large dealer network. Plenty of satisfied owners on here.


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## snazpizaz (18 Jun 2018)

Hi
The weight priority is because of a back disability. The bikes are part of a physio - programme. The Brompton only do up to 16" wheels and i haven't really taken to them. 20" seems fine. 
Yes the carrying/awkward folded thing - i did look at the Vello - Austria - which has a really elegant folding solution but the prices seem a bit steep to me.


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## Kell (19 Jun 2018)

OK - so we're getting a little closer to some of your requirements and rationales...

One thing I'd ask is why a folder? Is it because of space to store it? Or because you need to transport it? And then is it in your own vehicle or public transport?

I ask only because the weight is largely irrelevant if you're not going to have to pick it up and carry it any distance. 

Few bikes fold as small as a Brompton, but Bromptons (in my experience) aren't easy things to carry long distances. This is not entirely due to the weight, but more how you have to carry it away from the body, meaning it's awkward. 

My old full-size Dahon on the other hand, could be wheeled along while still folded so was easier, but clearly wouldn't fold small enough to go in the back of a small hatchback for instance.

I'm sure I've seen some other 20" wheeled bikes that can be pushed or pulled along while folded (albeit awkwardly) but I couldn't give you specific models. 

As for other considerations, I only found out after my Dahon's frame snapped, that I was over the rider weight limit for the bike - which is (or was) 95kg. I don't know how heavy you are, but it might come in to play.


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## snazpizaz (19 Jun 2018)

The folding is primarily to enable me to make journeys and double back on public transport / visa versa - also that i'm on the 4th floor with a small lift and this stops me using a bike because of the manoeuvres to get a full sized bike up/down to street level.
The bike weight priority has dropped from a 9-11kg to include 11-12kg. but it's still important - mostly carrying up / down stairs - I'd like one that wheels well when folded. I just went to test the weight of a few folders at a bike shop and still feel anything above 12kg is a no no. I liked the weight of both the Carrera Intercity and Tern N8. But the Carrera was a messy folder and the Tern has a fixed handlebar post, which i would seek to replace with a telescopic one if i did purchase it. The guy in the shop seemed a bit clueless about doing that.
Carrying folded - the only thing i can see is to try it out because none do it elegantly except the Vello, The forthcoming Felix (both too expensive) and the Brompton. Bromptons are a bit on the heavy side and i want 20" not 16" wheels.
Body weight - i'm just absorbing this is a factor that counts - i'm in process of ordering some new bathroom scales. My weight gain has increased due to disability to i need to keep an eye on that, but it's also what the bikes are for.

There's another issue around servicability. I'm in the UK and Dahon only ship certain models here. US made models from smaller companies are a bit of an investment and the guarantee or support isn't necc available here. I'm feeling a bit forced down the Tern / Dahon rd - I like the look of the Dahon Mu LX 2018 but it's not being marketed in the UK to date.
https://dahon.com/bikes/mu-lx/
It's listed as only 10.2kg but it's got that fixed handle bar post too which i don't want. I can't find a price for it. 
Euromini seem legit 
https://www.euromini.bike/about-us 
and they seem to be genuinely attempting to produce lightweight quality bikes at affordable prices. But the cost of importing them to the UK puts the price up more than double. 

Unless anyone can mention other models i'm sticking with my shortlist....


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## reppans (19 Jun 2018)

Kell said:


> I ask only because the weight is largely irrelevant if you're not going to have to pick it up and *carry it any distance*.
> 
> Few bikes fold as small as a Brompton, but Bromptons (in my experience) aren't easy things to carry long distances. This is not entirely due to the weight, *but more how you have to carry it away from the body*, meaning it's awkward.
> 
> My old full-size Dahon on the other hand, *could be wheeled along while still folded so was easier*, but clearly wouldn't fold small enough to go in the back of a small hatchback for instance..



FWIW, I short tour on the Brompton and probably carry it ~km/day (mostly in/out of the woods to/from stealth camping stops) - it's my favorite bike for this as the compact/locking/grease-protected fold make it my easiest bike to carry, despite being >15kg with all the stuff permenantly attached. 

Agree it's extremely awkward carrying suitcase-style due to way you have carry it away from your body - this is the same reason you always see delivery guys carrying 5gal water cooler jugs on top of their shoulders. Pad the main tube, flip it upside down and carry it on top of your shoulder, hand gripping the seat tube, and it feels like it's ~half the weight, and carries as easily as a 5gal water cooler jug. For me, it's much easier to negotiate stairs, narrow doorways/hallways, and with a hand free for doors (however, ceiling height can be any issue if you are tall). For even longer distance carry, rest the main tube across both shoulders (like carrying 2 water buckets with pole) either folded or unfolded (seat post extended and held by one arm) - I once hiked my touring rig up a 30 story staircase this way (T bag worn as backpack) - not much different than my heavy backpacking load back in the day.

I also have a rack, EZwheels, and X-Roller mod - Brompton's 'shopping cart' mode has no peer and I've done many hours/kilometers pushing my touring rig like a pram through museums, malls, and pedestrian-only parks.

OP, unless you want to ride dirt/gravel, I wouldn't be concerned with the 16" wheels - IMHO the Brompton's suspension more than makes up for difference to my Dahon Speed P8 20" w/Big Apples... and my poor Dahon has been relegated to car-boot/lock-outside duty.


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## snazpizaz (19 Jun 2018)

StuAff said:


> The only way you're going to get lighter bikes is to go second hand, spend more money, or both. Lightest Tern & Dahon models available now are around 10 kg. Some of the older Dahon models got much lighter than that. .https://www.world-wheels.co.uk/heliossl.htm. But considerably less stiff than modern frames and spare parts will be a pain to get hold of.



Thanks for the link. I'll check this out - any more leads on lightweight bikes appreciated. Is being 'considerably less stiff' a good thing or a bad thing ? I've only found one Dahon folding bike close to 10kg - the Mu LX 2018
https://dahon.com/bikes/mu-lx/


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## snazpizaz (19 Jun 2018)

[QUOTE="unless you want to ride dirt/gravel, I wouldn't be concerned with the 16" wheels - IMHO the Brompton's suspension more than makes up for difference to my Dahon Speed P8 20" w/Big Apples... and my poor Dahon has been relegated to car-boot/lock-outside duty.[/QUOTE]

I'm looking to access some of the tow paths around London's canals and rivers. The best/furthest reaches do rely on grass, sand and gravel footpaths. Also similar further out in surrounding counties, in forest paths, farm drives etc. I don't want to be just confined to tarmac. I just feel the 16" wheel don't really cut it.


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## Cycleops (19 Jun 2018)

The Dahon Broadwalk and D7 models look surprisingly similar to your Euromini.


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## reppans (19 Jun 2018)

snazpizaz said:


> I'm looking to access some of the tow paths around London's canals and rivers. The best/furthest reaches do rely on grass, sand and gravel footpaths. Also similar further out in surrounding counties, in forest paths, farm drives etc. I don't want to be just confined to tarmac. I just feel the 16" wheel don't really cut it.



Yeah the Brompton narrower 16" do OK on hard pack, but Big Apple 20" has the advantage as the ground gets softer/looser/bumpier.


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## Cycleops (19 Jun 2018)

reppans said:


> Yeah the Brompton narrower 16" do OK on hard pack, but Big Apple 20" has the advantage as the ground gets softer/looser/bumpier.


I find on softer looser surfaces tyre pressures rather profile are more relevant.


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## Kell (19 Jun 2018)

I recently went from Knightsbridge to Hayes and the cycle route on my phone kept forcing me onto the canal towpath.

At first it was OK, but once the paved bit ran out, the bumpy, tree rooted, muddy ground was less than ideal. think the journey was around 17 miles, and about 7 of it was on grass/hard mud. I certainly wouldn't want to repeat it in a hurry. 

The small wheels don't roll as well over bumps and the lack of front suspension meant it's hard on the hands. As it happens, I've replaced my rear suspension block with a much, much firmer one, so that didn't help either...

But if canal paths are part of your intended routes, then I'd rule out a Brompton from my own experience.


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## reppans (19 Jun 2018)

Cycleops said:


> I find on softer looser surfaces tyre pressures rather profile are more relevant.



Maybe, but tyre profile also tends to define recommended pressures. I certainly won't run my Brommie as low pressure as my Big Apple'd Dahon due to risks of denting a rim.


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## wallarts (13 Jul 2018)

I have mariner d8, i was looking for a basket but i couldn't find anything. 
you have to use original accesories.
so i think folding bikes are not good for modification.


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## chriscross1966 (14 Jul 2018)

wallarts said:


> I have mariner d8, i was looking for a basket but i couldn't find anything.
> you have to use original accesories.
> so i think folding bikes are not good for modification.



I beg to differ....













Henrietta at Swindon Origami



__ chriscross1966
__ 17 Sep 2017


















Persephone



__ chriscross1966
__ 9 Sep 2017



The new S5EX modified


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## TheDoctor (14 Jul 2018)

wallarts said:


> I have mariner d8, i was looking for a basket but i couldn't find anything.
> you have to use original accesories.
> so i think folding bikes are not good for modification.


Well, yes and no.
I've yet to find a luggage system that I prefer to the Brompton one, although I've seen all sorts of ingenious arrangements.
The Bromptons just that way^^ are utterly gorgeous.
I modded my M6R into a M12R by throwing a compact chainset on. The lowest gears are only useful in mountains.
Really, anything can be modded. Whether it's worth doing is a personal decision.
I'd never fit carbon bits to a Brompton, but I admire the skill and perseverance of those who have.

However, in terms of the OP, it's better to get the right bike in the first place, as things like disk brakes are tricky as a retrofit.


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