# New Bosch Motor



## jowwy (18 Jun 2019)

Bosch have released details of their new crank drive motor..........with Anti de-tuning technology

The first motor brought out that can’t be dongled or unlocked for more speed. Could be a game changer


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## Slick (18 Jun 2019)

I've never even considered interfering with the factory settings especially when you can easily buy one already unrestricted. 

In what way do you reckon it to be a game changer?


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## jowwy (18 Jun 2019)

Slick said:


> I've never even considered interfering with the factory settings especially when you can easily buy one already unrestricted.
> 
> In what way do you reckon it to be a game changer?


Quite a lot of people have made comments, rightly that they are too easy to hack.......Bosch motor is the first step of making that feeling that people rightly express of illegality on the roads, paths, tracks to be eradicated 

It could be a game changer in changing how people feel about them


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## glasgowcyclist (18 Jun 2019)

I had assumed that the vast majority of ebike users didn't tamper with the bike and just enjoyed the benefits of the standard assistance. Is it common for owners to bypass the power limit? It wouldn't be a 'game changer' otherwise.


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## fossyant (18 Jun 2019)

I think most manufacturers cal tell if tampered with, especially come warranty time.


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## Phaeton (18 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> with Anti de-tuning technology


What does this entail?


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## fossyant (18 Jun 2019)

Phaeton said:


> What does this entail?



Making them go zoom


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## jowwy (18 Jun 2019)

Phaeton said:


> What does this entail?


Not 100% sure as I haven’t read the full blurb.....I believe it’s something in the software that can detect if sensors, magnets, motor etc etc has been tampered with


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## jowwy (18 Jun 2019)

glasgowcyclist said:


> I had assumed that the vast majority of ebike users didn't tamper with the bike and just enjoyed the benefits of the standard assistance. Is it common for owners to bypass the power limit? It wouldn't be a 'game changer' otherwise.


And your assumption would be right....but there is always someone awilling to break the law, whether it’s ebikes, alcohol, drugs.....if Bosch can do something to help eleviate the opportunity to de-restrict, then I’m all for that.

Both mine are set-up legally and will remain that way


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## Smudge (18 Jun 2019)

glasgowcyclist said:


> I had assumed that the vast majority of ebike users didn't tamper with the bike and just enjoyed the benefits of the standard assistance. Is it common for owners to bypass the power limit? It wouldn't be a 'game changer' otherwise.



Yes it is common..... if it wasn't there wouldn't be such a big market for dongles and chipping modules. You can then add soldering shunts in the controller and changing speed settings into the mix. Or just plain buying non road legal kits and ebikes.


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## Smudge (18 Jun 2019)

I'm highly skeptical that Bosch would do this out of any sense of morality for EU law on ebikes. I suspect they just dont want customers dongling their motors and thus making them more prone to breaking by having more power put through them.
Bosch have had their issues on their crank drive motors, whenever you make a motor have more performance it usually comes at the expense of reliability.
Bosch know damn well people dongle their motors, then when there's a defect under warranty, which could be down to performance enhancing, the customer will obviously remove the dongle before a warranty claim. Some claim Bosch know if a motor has been dongled, but thats just an assumption, only Bosch would know if this is true..... and i don't believe it is.


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## Phaeton (18 Jun 2019)

Not knowing what a dongle is in this concept I would be surprised they can stop their software being hacked off there is enough demand. I too am cynical of their reasons for doing this


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## jowwy (18 Jun 2019)

Smudge said:


> I'm highly skeptical that Bosch would do this out of any sense of morality for EU law on ebikes. I suspect they just dont want customers dongling their motors and thus making them more prone to breaking by having more power put through them.
> Bosch have had their issues on their crank drive motors, whenever you make a motor have more performance it usually comes at the expense of reliability.
> Bosch know damn well people dongle their motors, then when there's a defect under warranty, which could be down to performance enhancing, the customer will obviously remove the dongle before a warranty claim. Some claim Bosch know if a motor has been dongled, but thats just an assumption, only Bosch would know if this is true..... and i don't believe it is.


I agree.......im certainly not a fan of the illegal practice that some under take with the de-restricting of their machine. 

But i do think there should be more pressure on the manufacturer to produce a product that isnt easy to de-restrict and it could then change peoples views on the E bike brand


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## Smudge (18 Jun 2019)

Phaeton said:


> Not knowing what a dongle is in this concept I would be surprised they can stop their software being hacked off there is enough demand. I too am cynical of their reasons for doing this



They may stop it for a while, but people always eventually find a way to get around these things. Then its business as usual for the dongle sellers, or whatever other device they come up with.


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## Bonefish Blues (18 Jun 2019)

How do you mean? I'm not sure that there's much public consciousness as yet, period.


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## Levo-Lon (19 Jun 2019)

My trek ebike can be de-restricted quickly without any dongle or interference with the motor.

Very simple, you move the wheel magnet sensor, unscrew off the frame and move it towards the BB.
Move the wheel magnet to the crank.
The speed will read 7 mph at 27 mph. You have a full power ebike in 10 mins..

This would be undetectable if it was to fail.

I'm all for legal ebikes so bosch need to sort this too.
I couldn't do this very easily on the specialized levo as it has a rear wheel hub sensor.


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## Phaeton (19 Jun 2019)

meta lon said:


> The speed will read 7 mph at 27 mph. You have a full power ebike in 10 mins..


Only if in the event of a motor failure there was some evidence that it had been run at higher power, but if the manufacturer is confident it has locked the motor down so it cannot be run at higher power then they know it's a genuine failure. I suspect this has something to do with warranty rejections.


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## Levo-Lon (19 Jun 2019)

Phaeton said:


> Only if in the event of a motor failure there was some evidence that it had been run at higher power, but if the manufacturer is confident it has locked the motor down so it cannot be run at higher power then they know it's a genuine failure. I suspect this has something to do with warranty rejections.




It doesn't run at higher power.

The knock off point is a switch, thats what the magnet does.

So by using the crank instead of the whhel it fools the motor.


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## Phaeton (19 Jun 2019)

meta lon said:


> It doesn't run at higher power.


Bad choice of words, so it allows the motor to spin up to a higher speed, for instance when they build the motor, bearing in mind they want it built as cheap as possible, they could install bearings at each end of the motor capable of running at 5,000 rpm for 10,000 hours before they fail MTBF (Mean time Before Failure) however if the bypassed motor is then capable of running at 7,000 rpm that MTBF may drop to 2,000 as the additional heat generated could be beyond the tolerance of the bearing.

No idea on failure rates but it could be in the manufacturer's interest to make them as hard as possible to bypass.


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## jowwy (19 Jun 2019)

Phaeton said:


> Bad choice of words, so it allows the motor to spin up to a higher speed, for instance when they build the motor, bearing in mind they want it built as cheap as possible, they could install bearings at each end of the motor capable of running at 5,000 rpm for 10,000 hours before they fail MTBF (Mean time Before Failure) however if the bypassed motor is then capable of running at 7,000 rpm that MTBF may drop to 2,000 as the additional heat generated could be beyond the tolerance of the bearing.
> 
> No idea on failure rates but it could be in the manufacturer's interest to make them as hard as possible to bypass.


The thing is the motors are already capable of much higher speeds....as the motors are the same for uk/eu 15.6mph and the US/canada 20mph....its just the software thats different. If you dont change the software and just move or hoodwink the sensors then its easy to gain the higher assist speeds

But with this new motor, the software being used can sense a change in the motor, speed, cadence etc etc sensors that all work in sync to deliver the assist.....hoodwink one sensor then its shutdown into limp mode and back to the store for a reset, as only bosch regulated suppliers can have the PC software to update and service their motors....


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## fossyant (19 Jun 2019)

A couple of the e-MTB riders I've ridden with have said the 'big' manufacturers know if it's been 'chipped' - something to do with chips on the battery to monitor discharge rates - hence voided warranty.


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## Phaeton (19 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> The thing is the motors are already capable of much higher speeds....as the motors are the same for uk/eu 15.6mph and the US/canada 20mph....its just the software thats different. If you dont change the software and just move or hoodwink the sensors then its easy to gain the higher assist speeds.


Is this fact or guesswork? not in the cycle industry but quite often is other manufacturing industry I've known effectively the same item made to different standards for different markets, it is only evident by the suffix, EU, US ZA etc.


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## jowwy (19 Jun 2019)

“Phaeton said:


> Is this fact or guesswork? not in the cycle industry but quite often is other manufacturing industry I've known effectively the same item made to different standards for different markets, it is only evident by the suffix, EU, US ZA etc.


It’s fact.....on a different forum there are apps available for Bluetooth enabled motors so the software can be changed to make it into the USA spec speed limits. Download the app, attached to it to the motor and switch between us/ uk spec


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## glasgowcyclist (19 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> as the motors are the same for uk/eu 15.6mph and the US/canada 20mph....its just the software thats different.



Do you know if they use the same motor for their 25kph bikes as their 45kph ones?

I was looking at some online today and the difference in price was around €1100 more for the 45kph. I'd be miffed if I was after a 45kph and all it needed was a software update from the slower setting for that money.

I'll be happy with the slower one, just curious.


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## jowwy (19 Jun 2019)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Do you know if they use the same motor for their 25kph bikes as their 45kph ones?
> 
> I was looking at some online today and the difference in price was around €1100 more for the 45kph. I'd be miffed if I was after a 45kph and all it needed was a software update from the slower setting for that money.
> 
> I'll be happy with the slower one, just curious.


Not sure on 45kph as it may need more than the 250w motor output.....but I am sure on the US / UK versions

As I posted before I’m on lots of forums and not just cycling.....as I’m also a custom club builder (golf) so I’m on those forums too


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## CXRAndy (20 Jun 2019)

Better get my custom firmware kit ordered


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## gbb (20 Jun 2019)

Is it possible the higher spec/speed US motors are using better spec internal components and bearings to cope with the higher loads etc...but still using the same electronics and software ?


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## jowwy (20 Jun 2019)

gbb said:


> Is it possible the higher spec/speed US motors are using better spec internal components and bearings to cope with the higher loads etc...but still using the same electronics and software ?


There are no US motors...the motors are the same

Im on an E bike forum with us/uk/eu/aus/nz/can members and all the ebikes us the same motor whether its shimano, brose, yamaha, bosch etc etc its just different software

Ebikemotion - orbea is one motor
Fazua only one motor
Ribble - ebikemotion one motor


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## johnblack (21 Jun 2019)

Bonefish Blues said:


> How do you mean? I'm not sure that there's much public consciousness as yet, period.


This. I think the amount of people who know or have this as a reason for not liking / wanting an electric bike would be tiny.


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## CXRAndy (23 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> But with this new motor, the software being used can sense a change in the motor, speed, cadence etc etc sensors that all work in sync to deliver the assist.....hoodwink one sensor then its shutdown into limp mode and back to the store for a reset, as only bosch regulated suppliers can have the PC software to update and service their motors....



At the moment, it will find its way onto the internet.

I've just ordered a 'open software' TSDZ2 motor kit. I can limit max current/power ,it has over temperature control, speed control and then various setup screen to display Watts/cadence/WattHours usage or remaining. It even has a walk assist- I suppose useful as these bikes are 15kg plus


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## Deleted member 23692 (23 Jun 2019)

Seeing as the UCI's first ebike world championship takes place later this year, Bosch's releases of a mechanical doping free system looks to be perfectly timed. It'll sure make scrutineering much easier if it can be 100% guaranteed conforming to spec.

Elsewhere in the news



CXRAndy said:


> I've just ordered a 'open software' TSDZ2 motor kit. I can limit max current/power ,it has over temperature control, speed control and then various setup screen to display Watts/cadence/WattHours usage or remaining. It even has a walk assist- I suppose useful as these bikes are 15kg plus


 I hope you've ordered a metal drive gear to replace the blue plastic one too


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## CXRAndy (23 Jun 2019)

Ffoeg said:


> Seeing as the UCI's first ebike world championship takes place later this year, Bosch's releases of a mechanical doping free system looks to be perfectly timed. It'll sure make scrutineering much easier if it can be 100% guaranteed conforming to spec.
> 
> Elsewhere in the news
> 
> I hope you've ordered a metal drive gear to replace the blue plastic one too



Not yet, I'll assess noise and decide whether to go plastic or brass. I like the fact the drive has a sacrificial part


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