# Three Strange Things Related to The Current 100 Mile Time Trial Record ???



## Anthony.R.Brown (11 Apr 2021)

Ok the first Strange thing if you look at the 100 TT time results below then A Wild's Time is slower than M Bialoblock's ?
Shown in the link...

100 Miles

2020 A Wild GS Metro 03:28:50
2019 M Bialoblocki NOPINZ 03:24:55


https://www.cyclingtimetrials.org.uk/articles/view/147


The Second Strange thing...

Below it says

What about Marcin Bialoblocki’s 3:13:37 competition record, is it achievable?

Where is this Time ? in the Records link above article below...

https://www.veloveritas.co.uk/2020/09/15/adam-wild-sep20/



And the Third Strange thing! concerns "The King of TT Alf Engers"

The RTTC’s response was immediate, a rule was rushed through, the jist of which was that the brakes have to be operable from the ‘normal riding position.

Photo shown below Alf Engers Banned - Hidden Brake Levers

But if you look at the Photo's I have posted below it shows clearly on Adam-Wild's bike that when he is using the bottom handle bar position then his brakes are also Not! operable from the ‘normal riding position ?

So why is his bike Not Banned! ?

https://www.veloveritas.co.uk/2010/12/01/alf-engers-part-ii-the-record-or-i-can-go-fast-if-its-easy/


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## matticus (11 Apr 2021)

I can't even SEE the brake levers! Got a different pic?


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## matticus (11 Apr 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> But you can see the bottom handle bar position ? and we both can't see the brake levers ??


Yes and
Yes

(I'm reluctant to comment without all the info.)


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## classic33 (11 Apr 2021)

And both slower than
_"Jonathan Shubert (3.19.58) fastest in the BDCA 100 mile time trial on the A50 near Stoke on Trent on Sept 7; "_
https://www.velouk.net/2019/09/09/result-bdca-100-mile-tt-2/


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## midlife (11 Apr 2021)

Have the rules changed over the years about brake levers? I'm sure that the elbows on the rests would have contravened the 3 points of contact rule from BITD?


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## matticus (11 Apr 2021)

I probably shouldn't comment.

IMO the sport abandoned safety considerations when allowing aero-bars on a public road. (I've ridden at least 1000 miles with them, BTW!)


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## palinurus (11 Apr 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> Just like my other thread below a lot of these TT Rules need to be looked at!
> 
> Change The Time Trialling Records Rules - Because of the 7 km+ / 8 minute+ Advantage!
> https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/c...ecause-of-the-7-km-8-minute-advantage.272853/
> ...



The current CTT regulation about brakes is worded differently- I don't follow these sort of issues in any detail so I don't know when the change was made.

_"(a) Brake levers must be secured to the handlebars in such a position as to enable the competitor to readily apply both brakes whilst holding the handlebars at their widest point. The width of handlebars shall be no less than 35 cms."_


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## classic33 (11 Apr 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> Just like my other thread below a lot of these TT Rules need to be looked at!
> 
> Change The Time Trialling Records Rules - Because of the 7 km+ / 8 minute+ Advantage!
> https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/c...ecause-of-the-7-km-8-minute-advantage.272853/
> ...


What about Eugene Christophe?


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## Ian H (11 Apr 2021)

classic33 said:


> What about Eugene Christophe?


I don't think he ever rode under RTTC rules


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## Ian H (11 Apr 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> So are Adam Wilds Brake levers legal! ?


Was he disqualified? If not then, de facto, they're legal. And they seem to be in the photo.

RTTC rules have always been a bit arbitrary – it's just part of the fun.


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## classic33 (11 Apr 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> OK got that pic...I have made the Original better below...
> 
> So are Adam Wilds Brake levers legal! ?
> 
> ...


He's in breach of the wrists being lower than his elbows.


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## midlife (11 Apr 2021)

classic33 said:


> He's in breach of the wrists being lower than his elbows.



He's not on the aero bit yet, elbows not on the rests?


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## Anthony.R.Brown (12 Apr 2021)

midlife said:


> He's not on the aero bit yet, elbows not on the rests?



Exactely! 

Seems to me that the Aero position breaks every rule in the book! except for the "Ive Got More Money Than Sense! And I will Keep Buying And Using These Unsafe Bars Until I Kill Myself Or Another Rider! Meanwhile I am Making Companies That Manufacture Them into Millionaires!!!"


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## T4tomo (12 Apr 2021)

*Anthony.R.Brown *is *Alf Engers*' secret love child and I claim my £200.


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## newfhouse (12 Apr 2021)

T4tomo said:


> *Anthony.R.Brown *is *Alf Engers*' secret love child and I claim my £200.


There’s a bit of Keith Oates in the mix too!!!!!


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## Solocle (12 Apr 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> Exactely!
> 
> Seems to me that the Aero position breaks every rule in the book! except for the "Ive Got More Money Than Sense! And I will Keep Buying And Using These Unsafe Bars Until I Kill Myself Or Another Rider! Meanwhile I am Making Companies That Manufacture Them into Millionaires!!!"


Millionaires I think not. I got a nice set of clip ons a while back for £30.


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## matticus (12 Apr 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> OK got that pic...I have made the Original better below...
> 
> So are Adam Wilds Brake levers legal! ?
> 
> ...


Just out of interest; do you have numbers to show that attaching "proper" levers would have made him as slow as Engers?


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## Anthony.R.Brown (12 Apr 2021)

So according to the Original RTTC Rules below then both of the Tri Bars below are Illegal! because the Normal riding position ? for a Time Trial rider is on the Tri Bars,let's say 90% ? of the time.

The RTTC’s response was immediate, a rule was rushed through, the jist of which was that the brakes have to be operable from the ‘normal riding position.

And according to the New CTT Rules below

(a) Brake levers must be secured to the handlebars in such a position as to enable the competitor to readily apply both brakes whilst holding the handlebars at their widest point. The width of handlebars shall be no less than 35 cms.

Which for some strange reason ? and harks back to the Original RTTC having a personal issue with Alf Engers  they had to include the "whilst holding the handlebars at their widest point" ? so as to make Alf's Banned brake levers still Banned! ???

But the Joke with all this is if you look at Alf's Banned brake levers below,including Tri Bar extensions like allowed today ? then Alf's are more of a Safety design! because it's easier to reach the Brake levers,if the levers are nearer the centre by the stem,on both sides which Alf's are!
Where as on Adam Wild's Tri bar set up,his hands are furthest away from the centre ? resulting in an emergency it will take longer to reach the levers! ? as shown in the photo below.


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## classic33 (12 Apr 2021)

May well be easier reach, but which would be easier to actually use. Those that use the fingers to operate the brakes, or those where the flat of the hand is used.

The levers are behind the actual bar. And not operated from the widest point of the bars either.


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## matticus (12 Apr 2021)

CTT and UCI should copy the Driving Test: have an Emergency Stop test.


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## T4tomo (12 Apr 2021)

I did a bit of google-ing on our Alf, just in case his known sons were listed on Wikipedia, it seems he wasn't popular with the RTTC at all, but was quite a talent back in the day.

I'm not sure a one-man campaign on cyclechat and other less popular cycling forums is going to right that wrong though.


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## classic33 (12 Apr 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> The fingers might have a certain amount of leverage ? but for sure the whole hand will always have more stopping power! so another + for Alf's levers.
> There is nothing in both rules about if the levers can be in the front of the bars or behind ? and I mentioned the widest point above as a way of stopping Alf's levers being legal,and the advantage of Alf's which you missed ? is that they are nearer the centre where riders today hold 90% of the time in the Tri bar position.


The brake levers are/were fitted the wrong way round, plain and simple.
They were of a design used normally in front of the bars, not behind. The fingers "hook round" the levers in normal use.

I say remove the ban on recumbent records and the times tumble. It's not as though they're somety new, being banned by the UCI in 1934.


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## Milkfloat (12 Apr 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> Well I know it's hard for you with pictures and everything to keep up ? it's nothing about being naughtier it's about a rider turns up at TT after all the training and preparation,and is constantly stopped and not allowed to ride by the RTTC because of such petty things like brake levers! where as nowadays it looks like anything goes!
> Without a doubt if Alf was not stopped from riding so many times by the RTTC then he would have broken the 50 minute barrier years before he did! and then he could have moved on to other distances,like you are saying the National 100 etc.


1.) Both riders are riding to the rules that applied to them. 
2.) Rules in all sports continually evolve, complaining about that is of no use.
3.) Comparing riders from different eras is a pointless exercise and it is impossible to come out with a definitive answer of who was best.


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## classic33 (12 Apr 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> Yes of course they were fitted around the wrong way! ? It's called Aerodynamics Alf was always doing things to lessen the drag! basically ahead of his time! now of course all Aerodynamic things are the norm,and more important allowed! ?
> Whether the fingers hook round or are operated by the whole hand,the important thing is that they can equally be operated in fact more from the Aero position! than Adam Wild's regarding how long it takes to operate them!


Prove it!
And the fact that it can be done safely. Which after all is your main argument on this.

The design of the brake levers is for forward facing, not rearward facing. A cheap, and dangerous, attempt at circumventing the rules in place.


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## Ian H (12 Apr 2021)

classic33 said:


> The brake levers are/were fitted the wrong way round, plain and simple.
> They were of a design used normally in front of the bars, not behind. The fingers "hook round" the levers in normal use.
> 
> I say remove the ban on recumbent records and the times tumble. It's not as though they're somety new, being banned by the UCI in 1934.


I'm not sure what the UCI has got to do with this. The thread is about events run under RTTC regs. In any case HPVs have their own organisations and events.
Off-topic quiz: Who has held both upright bike and faired HPV end-to-end records?


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## classic33 (12 Apr 2021)

Ian H said:


> I'm not sure what the UCI has got to do with this. The thread is about events run under RTTC regs. In any case HPVs have their own organisations and events.
> Off-topic quiz: Who has held both upright bike and faired HPV end-to-end records?


Other than showing that recumbents are nothing new, not a lot. They're also banned under RTTC regs, according to an earlier link posted earlier.


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## matticus (12 Apr 2021)

Ian H said:


> I'm not sure what the UCI has got to do with this. The thread is about events run under RTTC regs


The two have broadly evolved their rules in parallel, n'estcepas?


Spoiler: P.s.



Wilko?


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## classic33 (12 Apr 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> How many proof examples do you want or need that Alf's brake lever's type can be used round both ways! ?
> 
> 
> View attachment 583619
> ...


Non of those match the ones pictured in your first post. They're all bar end mounted, not centre of the bars and behind them.

I can wait.


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## classic33 (12 Apr 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> Rubbish! your quote "The design of the brake levers is for forward facing, not rearward facing. A cheap, and dangerous, attempt at circumventing the rules in place."
> 
> Your argument is that the lever is for forward facing ? it can be either way as long as there is leverage just like the examples I showed!
> 
> ...


All your examples have one thing in common, they are not operated in the same manner as those in the your first post.


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## Ian H (12 Apr 2021)

That whistling sound is a point being missed.


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## Anthony.R.Brown (12 Apr 2021)

Alf would of had these brakes & bars if they were around when he was riding  and of course the RTTC would have again Banned them!


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## midlife (12 Apr 2021)

That’s just weird lol. ( the pic with the bars the wrong way round )


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## Milkfloat (12 Apr 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> You are missing the point! in Alf's day Safety was a big thing and stopped many riders doing lot's of things,now we have Tri bars all over the place,and even inexperienced children using them with out understanding that they should really be keeping their fingers,hands, close to the actual brake levers in case of an emergency reason to brake quickly! maybe this will change when the death rates go up ? along with how some TT courses do not exist anymore because of the amount of traffic.


Well that is exactly my point, things change and always will do. Although it is totally irrelevant, current levers have not been proven to be less unsafe than days of old, in fact I would much prefer current braking technology and materials than those in Alf’s day. Times change, just respect Alf’s achievements for what they were and don’t try to compare to today.


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## Ian H (13 Apr 2021)

Saddle up old Rocinante, we're off again.


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## matticus (13 Apr 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> Alf would of had these brakes & bars if they were around when he was riding  and of course the RTTC would have again Banned them!
> 
> View attachment 583659


Bar tape wrapping is shocking - got to be 2 Watts lost there


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## matticus (13 Apr 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> I wish I could give this more than a mere "like".


We need a button for:
_I recognised your literary reference.
(perhaps a push-specs-up-nose emoji?)_

p.s. the new Gilliam movie sounds rather good!


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## Milkfloat (13 Apr 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> The comparison has already been done! using {MTAF}



I could have hardly missed it, as I am pretty sure you posted it 5 times or more! However, it does not make it anything other than a completely theoretical exercise that misses so many variables. It proves nothing which is not your models fault, it is impossible to compare riders.


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## T4tomo (13 Apr 2021)

*Anthony.R.Brown *why is this whole thing an issue now in 2021? I could understand it being worthy of debate in the 1960's and 70's when he was been kept out of the amateur cycling word or being unfairly treated on his return.

your MTAF stuff is quite arbitrary btw, comparison between era's in any sport is subjective, particularity in outdoor TT's on different courses in different weathers.


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## classic33 (13 Apr 2021)

I think he's Slovakian.


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## Milkfloat (13 Apr 2021)

A ride can never be under exactly the same conditions as they are not simultaneously occupying exactly the same space.


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## T4tomo (13 Apr 2021)

T4tomo said:


> *@Anthony.R.Brown *why is this whole thing an issue now in 2021? I could understand it being worthy of debate in the 1960's and 70's when he was been kept out of the amateur cycling word or being unfairly treated on his return.


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## T4tomo (13 Apr 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> People are forgetting that the {MTAF} is based on the same rider under the same conditions! so it's a more than a fair calculation as to just how much of an advantage Modern Technology has!


Its a reasonable approximation for illustration purposes only, but is only applicable to Chris Boardman and two particular bikes, and specifically a very special aero bike. differing people will get a differing advantage out of aero equipment and will generate differing levels of power in different body positions those machine dictate. Obree and Boardman were well matched, i'd wager if they had swapped bikes, both would have been far slower on the others bike.

BTW - Good luck with your age group record attempts, genuinely interested to know how you get on.


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## Anthony.R.Brown (15 Apr 2021)

midlife said:


> Have the rules changed over the years about brake levers? I'm sure that the elbows on the rests would have contravened the 3 points of contact rule from BITD?



Good point!


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