# Clueless.



## Hedgemonkey (28 Apr 2017)

Now I'm all for encouraging cycling, but sometimes, you really do wonder about the lack of common sense of some people. Today coming out of Sheffield on the A57 ( always a very very busy road for trucks ) towards the M1, three people on catalogue specials with helmets balanced nicely on the back on their heads, were wobbling round the roundabout, while the others waited on the exit of the roundabout for them to catch up. With 38 tonners just missing them. Also awhile ago there was a group of about 15 stopped on the road while cycling down the A38 by Burton on Trent. A 70mph dual carriage way. Ffs it's no wonder some vehicle drivers have such a bad opinion of people on bicycles. I should add that on both occasions, the riders were of an age where they didn't have to worry about the 9 to 5 anymore.


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## Smokin Joe (28 Apr 2017)




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## gaijintendo (28 Apr 2017)

Hedgemonkey said:


> Now I'm all for encouraging cycling, but sometimes, you really do wonder about the lack of common sense of some people. Today coming out of Sheffield on the A57 ( always a very very busy road for trucks ) towards the M1, three people on catalogue specials with helmets balanced nicely on the back on their heads, were wobbling round the roundabout, while the others waited on the exit of the roundabout for them to catch up. With 38 tonners just missing them. Also awhile ago there was a group of about 15 stopped on the road while cycling down the A38 by Burton on Trent. A 70mph dual carriage way. Ffs it's no wonder some vehicle drivers have such a bad opinion of people on bicycles. I should add that on both occasions, the riders were of an age where they didn't have to worry about the 9 to 5 anymore.


I blame Google maps. It might be legal, but there are safer ways to plan a tour... I assume. I never log these things, and I am generally slipstreaming my map loving friends.


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## Markymark (28 Apr 2017)

Are cyclist not allowed to wobbly around a roundabout now?


User13710 said:


> <Cholmondley-Walker voice> Cyclists! Know your place!


And do not wobble.....bastards.


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## rugby bloke (28 Apr 2017)

As a former Steel City man I have to say you would have to be bloody crackers to ride on the A57. Can be hairy enough driving on it.


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## Hedgemonkey (28 Apr 2017)

Markymark said:


> Are cyclist not allowed to wobbly around a roundabout now?
> 
> And do not wobble.....bastards.


It's not their ability to ride or stay on a bike it is the unbelievable choice of road to ride on, with an obvious lack of road skills. Yes we all have the right to ride on any road apart from motorways, but sometimes maybe common sense should be implemented.


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## Hedgemonkey (28 Apr 2017)

User13710 said:


> You were a bit snobby about their bikes and their skills though, why was that? Anyway, I expect they are all dead now as a result of their cluelessness, so motorists can stop worrying about them.



I apologise for the unintended snobbishness, I was trying to paint a picture of the scene of what appeared to be a very novice group, as I said I always encourage cycling, but to venture out onto a road like that or the A38 is incredibly dangerous and to imply that they are probably dead by now is that precise thing the post would be trying to avoid. 
Yes there is an attitude among some motorists and truckers, that we are just a pest on the road and should be treated as such and that situation today just compounds that opinion.


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## screenman (28 Apr 2017)

Roads are not dangerous, some drivers\cyclists certainly are.


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## Hedgemonkey (28 Apr 2017)

screenman said:


> Roads are not dangerous, some drivers\cyclists certainly are.


 
I totally agree, but roads with that volume of heavy traffic, surely are not the best place to venture onto on a bicycle.


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## winjim (28 Apr 2017)

They've all survived to retirement age so they can't be all that reckless. Next time I've an afternoon free I might go and ride the A57, just out of sheer bloody mindedness.


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## jefmcg (28 Apr 2017)

Hedgemonkey said:


> With 38 tonners just missing them.


Yes. Clueless lorry drivers passing cyclists without giving them enough space.

Glad you brought this to our attention. Have you contacted the haulage companies to let them know, and educate their drivers?


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## Hedgemonkey (28 Apr 2017)

User13710 said:


> But, you saw them as pests yourself.[/QUO
> 
> Not pests, just putting themselves in to an incredibly vunerable situation.


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## classic33 (28 Apr 2017)

Hedgemonkey said:


> Now I'm all for encouraging cycling, but sometimes, you really do wonder about the lack of common sense of some people. Today coming out of Sheffield on the A57 ( always a very very busy road for trucks ) towards the M1, three people on catalogue specials with helmets balanced nicely on the back on their heads, were wobbling round the roundabout, while the others waited on the exit of the roundabout for them to catch up. With 38 tonners just missing them. Also awhile ago there was a group of about 15 stopped on the road while cycling down the A38 by Burton on Trent. A 70mph dual carriage way. Ffs it's no wonder some vehicle drivers have such a bad opinion of people on bicycles. I should add that on both occasions, the riders were of an age where they didn't have to worry about the 9 to 5 anymore.


A fair bit of my cycling is done on "A" roads, always has been. A well used route takes in Chain Bar roundabout, which means a five way crossroads(Two "A" roads & a minor road) are used.

I'll use them, some may not, put off by the HGV's using them possibly.


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## Hedgemonkey (28 Apr 2017)

jefmcg said:


> Yes. Clueless lorry drivers passing cyclists without giving them enough space.
> 
> Glad you brought this to our attention. Have you contacted the haulage companies to let them know, and educate their drivers?



A completely separate argument, there are a lot safer places to stop than on an exit from a tight roundabout. Do you drive an HGV or is your comment based on an ignorance of driving of large vehicles.


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## Hedgemonkey (28 Apr 2017)

winjim said:


> They've all survived to retirement age so they can't be all that reckless. Next time I've an afternoon free I might go and ride the A57, just out of sheer bloody mindedness.


Then I hope that when you do, you are followed and overtaken by drivers that understand that you are a very vunerable road user and give you the space and time you need. Because there a many out there that won't.


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## jefmcg (28 Apr 2017)

Hedgemonkey said:


> A completely separate argument, there are a lot safer places to stop than on an exit from a tight roundabout. Do you drive an HGV or is your comment based on an ignorance of driving of large vehicles.


I based it on someone who was there saying "38 tonners just missing them"


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## classic33 (28 Apr 2017)

Hedgemonkey said:


> Then I hope that when you do, you are followed and overtaken by drivers that understand that you are a very vunerable road user and give you the space and time you need. Because there a many out there that won't.


That being the case, they shouldn't be behind a wheel. 

A car is more vunerable than a HGV, how much room would they give them?


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## Markymark (28 Apr 2017)

Research has shown that wobbly cyclists get given more space than those who are perceived as experienced cyclists. So they were possibly less likely to be hit that you.


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## glasgowcyclist (28 Apr 2017)

Hedgemonkey said:


> Because there a many out there that won't



And it's those drivers who are the problem, no-one else.


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## Hedgemonkey (28 Apr 2017)

classic33 said:


> That being the case, they shouldn't be behind a wheel.
> 
> A car is more vunerable than a HGV, how much room would they give them?



I'm sure there are many out there, that should not be in charge of a motor vehicle of any size.


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## Markymark (28 Apr 2017)

Lorries smashing into things in front of them is a big problem. The only possible solution I can think of is moving everything out of their way. That way the lorry drivers can just keep on driving without paying much attention. There is absolutely no possible alternative other than to clear the lorry's path of everything to avoid them smashing into things.


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## Hedgemonkey (28 Apr 2017)

glasgowcyclist said:


> And it's those drivers who are the problem, no-one else.


 I totally agree, but if as a vulnerable cyclist, if we put ourselves into situations of that amount of increased danger we could be accused of being at the least irresponsible.


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## Markymark (28 Apr 2017)

User13710 said:


> That does make the assumption that the OP regards himself as an experienced cyclist, being as how he sees the wobbly ones as clueless. Which prompts me to wonder if the thread would have had a different tone, or even existed at all, had the group he saw been an efficient chaingang of lycra-clad roadies cranking along.


Tbf the OP's thread title is spot on.


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## Markymark (28 Apr 2017)

I will certainly pass this into my wife who wobbles a bit when she cycles that she mustn't use roundabouts anymore. This might be tricky living in London but I'm sure I'll be able to find her some routes that go vaguely near where she needs to go.

I'll also sit her down and point out how clueless she is.


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## classic33 (28 Apr 2017)

There's a local(for me) road that connects two "A" roads. Council are trying to declare all three as unsafe for cycling.

Both "A" roads are practically the only roads that can be used. The short road connecting them is popular amongst cyclists, one of the longest climbs in the UK.


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## Hedgemonkey (28 Apr 2017)

Markymark said:


> Lorries smashing into things in front of them is a big problem. The only possible solution I can think of is moving everything out of their way. That way the lorry drivers can just keep on driving without paying much attention. There is absolutely no possible alternative other than to clear the lorry's path of everything to avoid them smashing into things.



Or


User13710 said:


> That does make the assumption that the OP regards himself as an experienced cyclist, being as how he sees the wobbly ones as clueless. Which prompts me to wonder if the thread would have had a different tone, or even existed at all, had the group he saw been an efficient chaingang of lycra-clad roadies cranking along.


The clueless part is the fact that one would cycle on such a busy road. And to be honest I've never seen any lycra clad roadies chainganging up the A57, as its possibly too dangerous.


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## Markymark (28 Apr 2017)

Hedgemonkey said:


> Or
> 
> The clueless part is the fact that one would cycle on such a busy road. And to be honest I've never seen any lycra clad roadies chainganging up the A57, as its possibly too dangerous.


Ah, I see. You're _clueless_ as to how to cycle on a busy road. You could possible get some advice on how to do this. There's plenty of very experienced and safe cyclists on here that could give you some good tips. Or you could just think they're dumb, it's up to you.


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## classic33 (28 Apr 2017)

User13710 said:


> What would this mean?


Cragg Vale Hill Climb gets closed. Cyclists get moved onto the canal towpaths.


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## Cuchilo (28 Apr 2017)

Markymark said:


> I will certainly pass this into my wife who wobbles a bit when she cycles that she mustn't use roundabouts anymore. This might be tricky living in London but I'm sure I'll be able to find her some routes that go vaguely near where she needs to go.
> 
> I'll also sit her down and point out how clueless she is.


You are a good husband ! Not many like you around nowadays


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## Hedgemonkey (28 Apr 2017)

After years of commuting in London by bike, I'm pretty sure I understand how to ride in heavy traffic. But why would you want to put your life at risk by riding on such a fast busy A road as those on the thread. then it's your choice. But believe after 30 years of cycling it sure scares the f*ck out of me. But then again, after you've been taken out by a car and one wakes up in Ealing Hospital to the little concerned faces of your small children, wondering what's wrong with their Dad, it alters your outlook on your how vulnerable we really are.


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## glasgowcyclist (28 Apr 2017)

Hedgemonkey said:


> I totally agree, but if as a vulnerable cyclist, if we put ourselves into situations of that amount of increased danger we could be accused of being at the least irresponsible.



When you describe a situation where bad driving puts soft road users in peril, the answer is not to remove the potential victims. 



Hedgemonkey said:


> Ffs it's no wonder some vehicle drivers have such a bad opinion of people on bicycles.



It's faulty reasoning to regard those cyclists being close-passed by HGVs as responsible for the misguided opinions of other drivers.


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## Hedgemonkey (28 Apr 2017)

Gosh there is a lot of fol


User said:


> So why not address the danger?


 I wish we could. But unfortunately, I find that the driving in this country is getting more and more aggressive and when the sentences handed down to motorists by the courts who have killed a cyclist are so paltry, compared to other forms of killing, we have an uphill struggle.


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## Hedgemonkey (28 Apr 2017)

glasgowcyclist said:


> When you describe a situation where bad driving puts soft road users in peril, the answer is not to remove the potential victims.
> 
> The close passing was caused by the place they had decided to wait for the others. They obviously could not see the danger their actions had placed themselves into.
> 
> ...


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## mjr (28 Apr 2017)

User said:


> Are you suggesting that we collectively retreat from dangerous roads? Have you thought about where that ends?


It ain't no upwardly mobile highway... 

If people were cycling there, they probably don't know a better alternative. Maybe the alternative cycle route is lumpy substandard shoot that leaves cyclists at risk of wearing their saddles internally, or maybe it's simply not clearly signed. There aren't nearly as many masochists cycling as some suggest.

The OP seems local but doesn't seem to suggest where they should have been - just not on that road because that's for motorists only even though it's not.

And I've ridden on the A38. There's not a viable alternative to the bits I've ridden - as far as I know.


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## Hedgemonkey (28 Apr 2017)

There has been no mention of any bad driving, just the situation they had put themselves into. 

There does seem to be a fair bit of we are the victims here, but this situation was completely self inflicted. Yes we do suffer from ignorant driving, but sometimes we are responsible for putting ourselves at risk too. Or are we all so perfect we never do anything wrong ?


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## Hedgemonkey (28 Apr 2017)

User13710 said:


> I don't know that road personally, would it be closed to all traffic then? Is it possible to close a public road to just cyclists? Isn't it more likely that a sign would go up advising 'Unfit for cycling'? Not that I've ever seen one, but there are similar addressed to HGVs.


This I think is a good idea. :-) an advisory sign would be good advise. If someone wants to ride and be a hero then fine.


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## glasgowcyclist (28 Apr 2017)

Hedgemonkey said:


> I find that the driving in this country is getting more and more aggressive and when the sentences handed down to motorists by the courts who have killed a cyclist are so paltry, compared to other forms of killing, we have an uphill struggle



I do understand why you're concerned but the views you've been expressing in this thread are adding to the struggle.


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## Hedgemonkey (28 Apr 2017)

User said:


> You haven't addressed the basic issue here. We have a network of roads we are all legally entitled to use. Why should cyclists have their share of that network restricted?


 Yes we are legally entitled to ride roads apart from the motorways, but we are not allowed to ride on motorways, for a reason and surely those reasons could be applied, to such A roads / dual carriageways with the same motorways speed limits, because they are just too busy, fast and dangerous, to ride our bicycles on.


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## classic33 (28 Apr 2017)

User13710 said:


> I don't know that road personally, would it be closed to all traffic then? Is it possible to close a public road to just cyclists? Isn't it more likely that a sign would go up advising 'Unfit for cycling'? Not that I've ever seen one, but there are similar addressed to HGVs.


It's the road that had the piano towed up it in 2015. Think of ColinJ's Twenty minute challenge.

The two "A" roads would mean no viable road link between West Yorkshire an Lancashire. Without a long diversion.

Seen unsafe for HGV's & unsuitable for HGV's signs. A few round here.


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## winjim (28 Apr 2017)

User said:


> Are you suggesting that we collectively retreat from dangerous roads? Have you thought about where that ends?


Hence why I think I should go and ride it.


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## mjr (28 Apr 2017)

Hedgemonkey said:


> Yes we are legally entitled to ride roads apart from the motorways, but we are not allowed to ride on motorways, for a reason and surely those reasons could be applied, to such A roads / dual carriageways with the same motorways speed limits, because they are just too busy, fast and dangerous, to ride our bicycles on.


I asked http://cycle.travel/map for a route from Sheffield to the pub at Todwick and it sent me across the A57/M1 junction so I suspect there's no better alternative. What do you think it should have done?


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## Markymark (28 Apr 2017)

Hedgemonkey said:


> Yes we are legally entitled to ride roads apart from the motorways, but we are not allowed to ride on motorways, for a reason and surely those reasons could be applied, to such A roads / dual carriageways with the same motorways speed limits, because they are just too busy, fast and dangerous, to ride our bicycles on.


Is there any evidence to show these roads are actually more dangerous? I'd be interested to know because I would imagine junctions are more dangerous. 

However the op was about roundabouts if I remember anyway.


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## Hedgemonkey (28 Apr 2017)

glasgowcyclist said:


> I do understand why you're concerned but the views you've been expressing in this thread are adding to the struggle.


. 

All I'm trying to say is that venturing out onto some of the busiest, fast A roads is just suicidal. Yes we can ride them if we want, but why would you want to risk your life and not enjoy the ride.


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## screenman (28 Apr 2017)

I have


Hedgemonkey said:


> .
> 
> All I'm trying to say is that venturing out onto some of the busiest, fast A roads is just suicidal. Yes we can ride them if we want, but why would you want to risk your life and not enjoy the ride.




Out of interest, where are the largest number of cyclist killed or maimed, clue it is not On A roads I exoect.


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## Hedgemonkey (28 Apr 2017)

Markymark said:


> Is there any evidence to show these roads are actually more dangerous? I'd be interested to know because I would imagine junctions are more dangerous.
> 
> However the op was about roundabouts if I remember anyway.


 

I would think that the sheer volume of heavy traffic would keep the majority of cyclists away, therefore incident figures would probably be lower and yes junctions in my experience are scarey.


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## Hedgemonkey (28 Apr 2017)

screenman said:


> I have
> 
> 
> 
> Out of interest, where are the largest number of cyclist killed or maimed, clue it is not On A roads I exoect.


As I replied the sheer volume of traffic will deter cycling.


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## Hedgemonkey (28 Apr 2017)

User said:


> Motorways are different, and a red herring here. They are all created with separate legislation to be specially for motorised traffic,and are not part of our mainstream road network. Why do you want to extend that to other roads? What is wrong with addressing the underlying problem?



Because there are many major A roads with the same dangers now as motorways and what is the underlying problem.


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## classic33 (28 Apr 2017)

Hedgemonkey said:


> This I think is a good idea. :-) an advisory sign would be good advise. If someone wants to ride and be a hero then fine.


Do you know the road?


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## Hedgemonkey (28 Apr 2017)

User said:


> But why give in to this?


 I for one do not want to give up my life in the name of protest against a 4x4 traveling at 70mph down the A38.

A better battle would be to get lower speed limits on country roads and leave the busy trunk roads to the motorized vehicle's.


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## classic33 (28 Apr 2017)

User13710 said:


> OK, thanks. Is Cragg Vale an A road?





User said:


> No idea.


This road is dangerous for cyclists, if the council get their way.


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## Hedgemonkey (28 Apr 2017)

User13710 said:


> Is there a nationwide joined-up network of country roads for cyclists to use?


 I used to get from Aylesbury to the New Forest with only crossing the odd A road, it used to be a really pleasant ride. Also the pleasure of spending a few hours studying O/S maps.


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## Hedgemonkey (28 Apr 2017)

User said:


> Why not have both safer?


Because I'm being realistic. If you get pleasure from cycling those roads, then fine.


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## Hedgemonkey (28 Apr 2017)

User13710 said:


> That doesn't really answer the question. There are plenty of places where an A road is the only way to get from country road to country road, and not everyone lives in the middle of nowhere.


I understand this, but what folks are losing sight of is there are A roads, single carriageway quiet roads and also the likes of A38, A13, A40. Which are not that far removed from being a motorway.


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## Hedgemonkey (28 Apr 2017)

User said:


> It is nothing to do with pleasure. It is even less to do with realism, all the time you cannot see the logical conclusion to your thinking.



And the logical conclusion is ?


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## classic33 (28 Apr 2017)

Should we stop using these




And just short of where the concrete ends is where I ran over someone's foot.


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## Hedgemonkey (28 Apr 2017)

User13710 said:


> Where will you draw the line then, when you succeed in getting cyclists banned from some roads? Number of vehicles per day? Per hour? Number of cyclists wanting or needing to use the road?




Never said we should be banned from such roads, just be advised of the dangers of such a busy fast road and the reasons and dangers why we are not allowed on the motorway system, can now be seen on many trunk roads.

Anyway I'm off now, so cheers folks and I'll have a look in the morning. 

Sweet dreams. ;-)


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## classic33 (28 Apr 2017)

User13710 said:


> I thought you said it was a climb? It looks very safe to me, you can see for miles.


That's the top end! Ask @ColinJ if it's a climb
Cragg Vale Hill climb

Distance 5.3 miles
 Avg Grade 3%
 Elevation gain 968ft (295m)
 Max gradient: 7%
 Highest Elev 1,268ft
http://cyclinguphill.com/cragg-vale-hill-climb/ For more pictures


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## jefmcg (28 Apr 2017)

Hedgemonkey said:


> Never said we should be banned from such roads


Um.... 



Hedgemonkey said:


> but we are not allowed to ride on motorways, for a reason and surely those reasons could be applied, to such A roads / dual carriageways with the same motorways speed limits


If you are claiming you never said something you should remove the evidence you said it first. 


Hedgemonkey said:


> Sweet dreams. ;-)


Off to bed? Good, you seem rather "tired".


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## mjr (28 Apr 2017)

Hedgemonkey said:


> Never said we should be banned from such roads, just be advised of the dangers of such a busy fast road and the reasons and dangers why we are not allowed on the motorway system, can now be seen on many trunk roads.
> 
> Anyway I'm off now, so cheers folks and I'll have a look in the morning.
> 
> Sweet dreams. ;-)


That's a shame, going to sleep without answering the basic question of where those people should have ridden instead of the A57!

A better approach than farking signs discouraging cyclists further would be to rebuild the junctions to be safe for cycling. I think London's made a start. The rest of the UK should join in.


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## classic33 (28 Apr 2017)

User13710 said:


> As so often, Classic, your posts make no sense to me at all.


https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/my-20-minute-cragg-vale-hill-climb-challenge.143059/


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## tommaguzzi (28 Apr 2017)

https://www.strava.com/activities/940321341

Recently on this ride i reached a point where i could only go on the A168. It was legal to ride on it but i took one look and thought f.ck that and turned around and found another way.


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## Pat "5mph" (28 Apr 2017)

I am with @Hedgemonkey on this.
For a start, one does not stop at the exit of roundabouts, one is supposed to find a safe place to stop, cyclists and cars alike.
For a second, quoting on memory from Cyclecraft, text for our national cycling standard courses, if you are wobbly you're meant to practice somewhere quiet like a carpark until you're not wobbly anymore.
For a third  again according to Cyclecraft "anybody with an average fitness and road training can keep up with motorized traffic" (says also something about having a bike with gears) - this, imo, I read as that if you have not an average fitness or if you're unsure of the rules of the road, you cannot keep up with traffic, hence you should not, as a cyclist, be on a busy road.
In an ideal cycling world motorized traffic should be vigilant for vulnerable road users, of course, but this is not happening yet.
In an ideal cycling world Pat 5mph should be able to ride along Mr. Strava KOM on the local busy dual carriageway.
In practice he glides along keeping up with the flow, while I get beeped out of the way.
Mind, both of us could get run over at any time!
This train of thought by some forum members that think all cyclists should use any road just to prove the point that we are allowed would exclude kids, the less able bodied and the faint hearted from cycling.

Anyway, the cyclists in the OP might have been lost or there might not have been an alternative road to get to where they were going.


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## jonny jeez (28 Apr 2017)

User said:


> Are you suggesting that we collectively retreat from dangerous roads? Have you thought about where that ends?


Slough?


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## winjim (28 Apr 2017)

Pat "5mph" said:


> This train of thought by some forum members that think all cyclists should use any road just to prove the point that we are allowed would exclude kids, the less able bodied and the faint hearted from cycling.


I don't think that _all_ cyclists should use _any_ road, but I hope that if _some_ cyclists use _most_ roads, even if it is just the fast able bodied confident cyclists, then it goes some way towards normalising cycling as a mode of transport and demonstrating to drivers that they _could_ encounter a cyclist on _any_ road. This hopefully would have the knock on effect of making drivers more aware of cyclists generally, which would benefit the young, less able and less confident, wherever they choose to ride.


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## Pat "5mph" (28 Apr 2017)

winjim said:


> I don't think that _all_ cyclists should use _any_ road, but I hope that if _some_ cyclists use _most_ roads, even if it is just the fast able bodied confident cyclists, then it goes some way towards normalising cycling as a mode of transport and demonstrating to drivers that they _could_ encounter a cyclist on _any_ road. This hopefully would have the knock on effect of making drivers more aware of cyclists generally, which would benefit the young, less able and less confident, wherever they choose to ride.


Yes, I agree to this


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## jonny jeez (29 Apr 2017)

User13710 said:


> Motorists' bad behaviour, and lack of realistic deterrent penalties for it.


Coupled with, proportionally,almost non existent enforcement.


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## Shut Up Legs (29 Apr 2017)

winjim said:


> I don't think that _all_ cyclists should use _any_ road, but I hope that if _some_ cyclists use _most_ roads, even if it is just the fast able bodied confident cyclists, then it goes some way towards normalising cycling as a mode of transport and demonstrating to drivers that they _could_ encounter a cyclist on _any_ road. This hopefully would have the knock on effect of making drivers more aware of cyclists generally, which would benefit the young, less able and less confident, wherever they choose to ride.


Even in Australia, I can safely claim that some cyclists use almost all roads, but unfortunately that 'some' is such a small percentage, that no normalisation effect is occurring. This, combined with persistent anti-cyclist media articles, lack of government support, and stupid laws that mandate we wear helmets to cycle, will probably make normalisation of cycling something that will never occur in my lifetime.


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## Crackle (29 Apr 2017)

I understand the op and everyone else. Wouldn't it be nice if as cyclists we didn't have to worry about other peoples behaviour.

Last night was a good example: Teaching son2 to drive, I've been getting him to call the hazards as he sees them. I pointed to a cyclist coming the other way on a bend and said, that's a hazard you missed. He said why, it's just a cyclist on the other side, we're well clear. i said, not him, you're looking for the impatient driver who's going to go past him anyway and use your side of the road to do it. Just last night, as we were cycling someone did exactly that to us, missing us and an oncoming car narrowly. I heard him shout from behind me, I see what you mean now.


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## Pat "5mph" (29 Apr 2017)

Our group of 14 had to change canal paths today, down it goes into a traffic calmed narrow road, speed bumps and cyclists warning signs, then immediately up next left.
A kind driver stopped, let all the group pass the brief bit on that road, while I was monitoring for incoming cars.
But another driver behind did not wait, he passed the first car wanting to barge right into us.
That wee stretch is very well known for having cyclists on it, if one is in a hurry one could use the main road, permanently traffic logged though.


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## dave r (29 Apr 2017)

On a road not far from me.

https://goo.gl/maps/sNExSJrAcmS2


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## Pat "5mph" (29 Apr 2017)

dave r said:


> On a road not far from me.
> 
> https://goo.gl/maps/sNExSJrAcmS2


Oh my, is that a cycling route sign that could put you on the motorway??


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## dave r (29 Apr 2017)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Oh my, is that a cycling route sign that could put you on the motorway??



Unfortunately the companion sign the other side of the slip road is now missing, the missing sign used to point you towards the alternative route.
The A46 between Coventry and the M40 is now a motorway in all but name. Many years ago, before the M40 was built, and when I didn't know my way around as well as I do now I rode the A46 on two or three occasions, it wasn't pleasant. Now I know my way around better I know the alternative well and I wouldn't ride the section between Coventry and the M40, though I would ride the road the other side of the motorway if I needed to, but there are nicer routes I can use instead.


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## Milkfloat (29 Apr 2017)

dave r said:


> On a road not far from me.
> 
> https://goo.gl/maps/sNExSJrAcmS2



I have seen the odd cyclist and indeed tractors on this stretch of the A46, you would not catch me on a bike on it.


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## dave r (29 Apr 2017)

Milkfloat said:


> I have seen the odd cyclist and indeed tractors on this stretch of the A46, you would not catch me on a bike on it.



I've been on that stretch of the A46 in the car and found that travelling at the 70 limit I'm the slowest vehicle on it. That bridge where the Google link is taken from has a speed camera van parked on it quite regularly, often when you approach it all you see is brake lights.


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## irw (29 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4780431, member: 259"]You would be insane to try to cycle on any of the A 38 in the Midlands.[/QUOTE]

Not quite sure why you'd need to ride on the carriageway, as there's a separate path that runs along it, on the north/east bound side? 
Pretty sure I used that to get most/all of the way to Derby from Lichfield once!


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## mjr (29 Apr 2017)

Pat "5mph" said:


> For a second, quoting on memory from Cyclecraft, text for our national cycling standard courses, if you are wobbly you're meant to practice somewhere quiet like a carpark until you're not wobbly anymore.
> For a third  again according to Cyclecraft "anybody with an average fitness and road training can keep up with motorized traffic" (says also something about having a bike with gears) - this, imo, I read as that if you have not an average fitness or if you're unsure of the rules of the road, you cannot keep up with traffic, hence you should not, as a cyclist, be on a busy road.


That interpretation would be disability discrimination and illegal for the government to publish so I do not think it can be a correct reading.

In general, Cyclecraft does contain some vehicularist bull shoot among the useful tips. Treat it as a cookbook with some useful recipes rather than a gospel.


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## Hedgemonkey (1 May 2017)

irw said:


> Not quite sure why you'd need to ride on the carriageway, as there's a separate path that runs along it, on the north/east bound side?
> Pretty sure I used that to get most/all of the way to Derby from Lichfield once!


Hi folks. 

Unfortunately the large group, I came across were heading south on the carriageway all perfectly legally, but probably unadvisable.


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## Markymark (1 May 2017)

Hedgemonkey said:


> Hi folks.
> 
> Unfortunately the large group, I came across were heading south on the carriageway all perfectly legally, but probably unadvisable.


Is your advice superior to their judgement? Just wondering what your credentials are to be advising others as to road position?


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## Hedgemonkey (1 May 2017)

As an HGV driver for 30 years, both continental and UK, a Motorcyclist for 40 years, Advanced driving institute trained car driver and cyclist since school including European touring and a short time riding with a French cycling club, I think I might have a little experience of the roads. So pray tell, from which ivory tower do offer advise on how to stay safe on busy trunk roads to the inexperienced cyclist. We can all have righteous blinkered views on riding dangerous roads. But sometimes surely even we can see common sense over our rights to ride those type of very fast and busy roads and probably until everybody stops buying so much stuff in the supermarkets and they shift distribution back onto the railways it's only going to get worse on those trunk roads, but you can rest assure that when I do come across cyclists on those roads my first thoughts are for their safety even if it's legal but bloody silly place to be on a bicycle.


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## screenman (1 May 2017)

Is it possible we perceive certain roads to be unsafe where real numbers might tell us differently. Single carriageway blind bend roads in this country can be interesting.


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## Hedgemonkey (1 May 2017)

Indeed.On club rides we've had a few close passes on country roads. Would it not be better to use our energy and voices to campaign for lower speeds on roads a little more pleasant to ride on than a busy trunk road and more education of motorists on how easy it is to kill us while they stay safe in their safety featured 2 ton cars.


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## Hedgemonkey (1 May 2017)

screenman said:


> Is it possible we perceive certain roads to be unsafe where real numbers might tell us differently. Single carriageway blind bend roads in this country can be interesting.


As I stated earlier those busy roads normally have far fewer cyclists on due to the perception of danger, so I'm sure the figures would be lower than say a B road around an urban environment and as we know, governments and officials can make figures say what they want.


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## Hedgemonkey (1 May 2017)

In the end I just don't want to read or here about another dead cyclist, just doing what we all love doing, because it's such a waste of someone's life, and as we see in the press and the courts we are not really that important in the whole scheme of things. What ever our views we just want to get home.


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## Hedgemonkey (1 May 2017)

Markymark said:


> Is your advice superior to their judgement? Just wondering what your credentials are to be advising others as to road position?




I whole heartedly admire your obvious enthusiasm on this subject and that you use this for good advantage in some campaign group for cyclist rights.
I'm sure the CTC would welcome your combative approach.


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## jefmcg (1 May 2017)

Hedgemonkey said:


> I'm sure the CTC would welcome your combative approach.


And maybe offering your wisdom to CyclingUK (CTC is gone) would be more useful than being smugly judgemental about other cyclists on here.



Hedgemonkey said:


> suicidal


Just realise that describing someone's actions a "suicidal" means it is their own fault if they die. Please choose your language more carefully.


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## Drago (1 May 2017)

Cyclecraft is a good read, but its not perfect and does have some potentially dangerous bad practice within. Use it to get your mental juices flowing rather than as a guide to being invincibly safe.


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## Hedgemonkey (1 May 2017)

User said:


> Not seeing what is unfortunate about it.


It was "unfortunate" they did not know, as I, that was a safer route on the northbound side instead of risking their safety on the southbound carriageway.


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## Hedgemonkey (1 May 2017)

jefmcg said:


> And maybe offering your wisdom to CyclingUK (CTC is gone) would be more useful than being smugly judgemental about other cyclists on here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Hedgemonkey (1 May 2017)

I apologise for the use of the word "suicidal", as I would think that intention was never in their thought process before they ventured onto that road.


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## classic33 (1 May 2017)

Hedgemonkey said:


> It was "unfortunate" they did not know, as I, that was a safer route on the northbound side instead of risking their safety on the southbound carriageway.


Against the flow of traffic?


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## Hedgemonkey (1 May 2017)

classic33 said:


> Against the flow of traffic?



I've been led to believe it is a separate cyclepath away from the carriageway.


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## classic33 (1 May 2017)

A


Hedgemonkey said:


> As an HGV driver for 30 years, both continental and UK, a Motorcyclist for 40 years, Advanced driving institute trained car driver and cyclist since school including European touring and a short time riding with a French cycling club, I think I might have a little experience of the roads. So pray tell, from which ivory tower do offer advise on how to stay safe on busy trunk roads to the inexperienced cyclist. We can all have righteous blinkered views on riding dangerous roads. But sometimes surely even we can see common sense over our rights to ride those type of very fast and busy roads and probably until everybody stops buying so much stuff in the supermarkets and they shift distribution back onto the railways it's only going to get worse on those trunk roads, but you can rest assure that when I do come across cyclists on those roads my first thoughts are for their safety even if it's legal but bloody silly place to be on a bicycle.


You forgot surfing, and your landrover.


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## Phaeton (1 May 2017)

Hedgemonkey said:


> Today coming out of Sheffield on the A57


As you're forbidden to ride on the Parkway on a cycle, which part of the A57 was this?


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## classic33 (1 May 2017)

Hedgemonkey said:


> I've been led to believe it is a separate cyclepath away from the carriageway.


I'd walk against oncoming traffic, unwritten rule, when there's no footpath. But no way would I cycle against it.


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## Phaeton (1 May 2017)

classic33 said:


> I'd walk against oncoming traffic, unwritten rule, when there's no footpath.


Racist


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## Hedgemonkey (1 May 2017)

irw said:


> Not quite sure why you'd need to ride on the carriageway, as there's a separate path that runs along it, on the north/east bound side?
> Pretty sure I used that to get most/all of the way to Derby from Lichfield once!


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## classic33 (1 May 2017)

Hedgemonkey said:


> I've been led to believe it is a separate cyclepath away from the carriageway.


Still against the flow of traffic. Some interesting threads on trucknet with regards this sort of thing.


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## mjr (1 May 2017)

Hedgemonkey said:


> As an HGV driver for 30 years, both continental and UK, a Motorcyclist for 40 years, Advanced driving institute trained car driver and cyclist since school including European touring and a short time riding with a French cycling club, I think I might have a little experience of the roads.


Only a little as far as UK cycling goes then. No cycling qualification, no cycle tour group navigation experience AFAICS.

I can't check easily from here but does that A57 contraflow cycle track which wasn't on the map I checked (so will be missing from some sat nabs) have signs and an opportunity to cross to it safely?


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## Drago (1 May 2017)

From the description it sounds that the danger was all too real. However, it's a shame that fellow cyclists are criticising cyclists for exercising their lawful rights to ride instead of directing their ire towards the drivers causing the danger.

Some of the comments call to mind similar comments made about women going out at night in short skirts.


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## mjr (1 May 2017)

User said:


> When you say interesting....


Like the Chinese curse "may you live in interesting times".


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## classic33 (1 May 2017)

User said:


> When you say interesting....


Cyclists aren't entirely welcomed on "A" roads, by some on there.


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## jefmcg (1 May 2017)

classic33 said:


> Cyclists aren't entirely welcomed on "A" roads, by some on there.


And some on here, in case you haven't read this thread.


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## classic33 (1 May 2017)

jefmcg said:


> And some on here, in case you haven't read this thread.


I've read what jim posted.


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## jefmcg (1 May 2017)

classic33 said:


> I've read what jim posted.


 Who's Jim?


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## classic33 (1 May 2017)

jefmcg said:


> Who's Jim?


That should be easy work out.


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## Tim Hall (1 May 2017)

classic33 said:


> That should be easy work out.


Not here it isn't. Someone the other day mentioned your posts often don't make sense, or words to that effect. This is another instance.


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## TrishnBonnie (2 May 2017)

Hedgemonkey said:


> I've been led to believe it is a separate cyclepath away from the carriageway.


I've walked along the path with Bonnie it's separate from the road, and there were cyclists using it in both directions too. It's very noisy with the lorries thundering past but the path is definitely not on the road


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