# Turbo Trainers...Rejoice!!



## frayBentos59 (12 Mar 2013)

I hope this is in the right section, I thought I'd share this with you in case there are any other extremely frustrated turbo users out there  Like a lot of people who have been using the TT I've been driven to tears with utter boredom. I bought a Tacx Genius last year and I've managed to notch up an embarrasingly low number of trainer miles on it. I bought a few of the Tacx DVD's like the Black Forest and Milan San Remo and completed the M-SR (48 miles). Those couple of hours were the most boring and uninspiring of my life  I've not used these DVD's since and they put me right off wanting to waste any more money or even get on the TT.

I was on Amazon recently and spotted the 3LC (3 Legs Cycling) DVD range. I'll admit that I'm a big Cav fanboy and his image on the front is what drew me in to look more closely. I read the reviews on Amazon and checked out their website and their range of titles and thought I'd give it one last go before ebaying the trainer. I purchased the Road Race and it arrived within 2 days put it on straight away and I was instantly addicted  No more following the shaky video in a Tacx car with 
a bit of TT resistance here and there. This is punishing but exciting and rewarding training for both newbies and hard core TT users, plus the on screen instructions mean you always know where you are and to prepare for the next onslaught.
The developers obviously care about what they're doing becuase a lot of thought has gone in to the schedule unlike the Tacx films. The interaction with the cyclists on the film breaks up the periods when you're spinning continuously for 4 or 5 minutes and there's also Cav chipping in with some tips and cheek 

I'm not trying to compare 3LC's DVD's with the Tacx as I know they are completely different but I just wanted to let people know that there is some Turbo salvation out there. I can't recommend this enough. It'll be the best hour(s) you spend on a turbo  

http://www.amazon.co.uk/3LC-featuri...ef=sr_1_1?s=dvd&ie=UTF8&qid=1363121614&sr=1-1


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## Hip Priest (12 Mar 2013)

Sounds good.

My turbo is in the garage though - and I've got no power in there. Pah!


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## frayBentos59 (12 Mar 2013)

It really is H P. Given half the chance my post would be triple in length


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## oldfatfool (12 Mar 2013)

frayBentos59 said:


> No more following the shaky video in a Tacx car with
> a bit of TT resistance here and there.


 
You must have something wrong with your PC/TT ime there is nothing shaky about the Tacx films (especially the new HD BD releases) nor would I describe replicating actual climb profiles upto app 20% as a bit of resistance


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## frayBentos59 (12 Mar 2013)

Not sampled the HD releases but to be honest the Tacx DVD's in theory do nothing for me at all. An expensive lesson. As for the climb profiles, I'm very confident that the trainer is set up correctly and I'm regularly calibrating but I don't think the trainer can cope very well with the steepest gradients I find accuracy is there for anything up to 10-15% (give or take) but after that I just think it fails. Who knows, it could be the set up on my TT is out but ultimately i find their DVD's just un-inspiring, I don't want to return to their films like I do with the 3LC DVD


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## Demonclimber (12 Mar 2013)

frayBentos59 said:


> Not sampled the HD releases but to be honest the Tacx DVD's in theory do nothing for me at all. An expensive lesson. As for the climb profiles, I'm very confident that the trainer is set up correctly and I'm regularly calibrating but I don't think the trainer can cope very well with the steepest gradients I find accuracy is there for anything up to 10-15% (give or take) but after that I just think it fails. Who knows, it could be the set up on my TT is out but ultimately i find their DVD's just un-inspiring, I don't want to return to their films like I do with the 3LC DVD


 
fB59, have you tried the Sufferfest range of training films - take a while to download as mp4's but good value for a whole load of suffering; along with Trainer Road makes turbo training almost enjoyable


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## frayBentos59 (12 Mar 2013)

I have one if the sufferfest, Demon. Can't remember which one it is though. The subtitle commentary (is that right????) focuses on the flapping jacket of one of the riders as it's getting in his nerves  I much preferred that to the Tacx but having the human interaction on the 3LC DVD and the on screen set up plus seeing one of the pro's suffer too makes their DVD my out and out favourite


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## dave r (12 Mar 2013)

Hip Priest said:


> Sounds good.
> 
> My turbo is in the garage though - and I've got no power in there. Pah!


 
Mines in the shed, again no power, watching the heart monitor by the light of a head torch whilst listening to music on my MP3 player.


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## Ningishzidda (13 Mar 2013)

Cyclists spend that kind of lolly ( Tacx Genius ) because they are either too wealthy for their intelligence, or they are training for racing.
I suspect OP is training for racing.
In which case, all I have to say is the same as I ask the juniors in my club when they moan about Turbo sessions. "How much do you want to win?" "If you don't want to win, you can go home now. You're wasting your own and my time."

The one and only single objective in doing turbo work is to increase one's sixty minute power, or FTP. Take your bike out on the road to do hill work, cus that requires rocking around and balance skills.
Simply keep this one and only single agenda in mind, and I promise, your turbo work will be painful.


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## Licramite (13 Mar 2013)

you don't say what music you listen to.
get the headphones on get your favourite ZZtop tracks and burn to that.

I actually hit stage 4 the other night - good beginning speed for pro racers - I'm out of the mild exercise area.
- F-me - !


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## Hip Priest (13 Mar 2013)

Ningishzidda said:


> Cyclists spend that kind of lolly ( Tacx Genius ) because they are either too wealthy for their intelligence, or they are training for racing.
> I suspect OP is training for racing.
> In which case, all I have to say is the same as I ask the juniors in my club when they moan about Turbo sessions. "How much do you want to win?" "If you don't want to win, you can go home now. You're wasting your own and my time."
> 
> ...



I'm not training for racing (and have only a cheap trainer) but how do you increase your 60 minute power? Just going as hard as you can sustain for 60 mins?


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## Licramite (13 Mar 2013)

just a thought, have you thought of putting aerobars on the turbo. - not for the aerodynamic advantage - but for the change in position.
I did and it upped my speed as it put me right forward , resting on my elbows I found I could spin with more power.
some may disagree but it worked for me.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (13 Mar 2013)

Licramite said:


> just a thought, have you thought of putting aerobars on the turbo. - not for the aerodynamic advantage - but for the change in position.


A position you can find without paying for aero bars.



> I did and it upped my speed as it put me right forward , resting on my elbows I found I could spin with more power.


How much more power?



> some may disagree but it worked for me.


Fortunately, most people take your posts with a massive pinch of salt.


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## Licramite (13 Mar 2013)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> A position you can find without paying for aero bars.
> *- how ? -*
> 
> 
> ...


*don't take salt in large quantities it's bad for the heart, unless your in very hot climates or doing long hard exercise then upping intake - a small ammount - can be benificial - but our daily intake in western food is way to high so I wouldn't*


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (13 Mar 2013)

Licramite said:


> A position you can find without paying for aero bars.
> *- how ? -*



















> How much more power?
> *2-3mph*


Unfortunately that is speed. Power is measured in Watts and as most people are aware, speed on turbos has little meaning.


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## Licramite (13 Mar 2013)

In that postion without bars you have no leverage, your still resting your weight on your bum not your elbows. - you can,t dance on the pedals as lance puts it (mind you if take what he was on you might be able to)
giving it in watts would be a meaningless number - mph on a bike is far more relivant - and thats what I've acheived and I'm a knackered old fart.


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## oldfatfool (13 Mar 2013)

Ningishzidda said:


> Cyclists spend that kind of lolly ( Tacx Genius ) because they are either too wealthy for their intelligence, or they are training for racing.


 
Oi stop with the insults, I aint training for racing, so you must be saying I am seriously thick as pig shoot as my wealth quota is somewhere in the negative.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (13 Mar 2013)

Licramite said:


> In that postion without bars you have no leverage, your still resting your weight on your bum not your elbows. - you can,t dance on the pedals as lance puts it (mind you if take what he was on you might be able to)
> giving it in watts would be a meaningless number - mph on a bike is far more relivant - and thats what I've acheived and I'm a knackered old fart.


Didn't you break a helmet by falling off whilst on aero-bars, and so claim there is no leverage or stability?

Where do you expect the majority of ones weight to be? Didn't you notice that all of those riders are on their saddles? (which will help with the answer)

MPH is not far more relevant re: turbo trainers. It has no relevance at all.


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## Hip Priest (13 Mar 2013)

Licramite said:


> giving it in watts would be a meaningless number


 
I think Dave Brailsford might disagree.


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## Licramite (14 Mar 2013)

Hip Priest said:


> I think Dave Brailsford might disagree.


 
so would James watt. - but watt does a watt mean to you in real terms of Lsd - a mph , a pound pressure, a foot or a yard all mean things , a calorie ? a juel ? what the F do they mean - there just numbers.

as for thmet - you don't have a spedo on your turbo? and no I find if the weight is on your arms,the tip of the saddle is a fulcrum I can get more spin out my legs - If you don't agree all I can say is try it.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (14 Mar 2013)

Licramite said:


> as for thmet - you don't have a spedo on your turbo? and no I find if the weight is on your arms,the tip of the saddle is a fulcrum I can get more spin out my legs - If you don't agree all I can say is try it.


I do have a reliable speedo yes, but what I don't do is use speed on the turbo. It is meaningless beyond meaningless. I really shouldn't have to explain why this is the case. In actual fact it has been explained to you on multiple occasions, even recently by Rob3rt.

Please just stop promoting this stupid position of yours. It doesn't do anything you say it does apart from make you look like a bit of a prat, with no knowledge of TT'ing.


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## Ningishzidda (14 Mar 2013)

Licramite said:


> In that postion without bars you have no leverage, your still resting your weight on your bum not your elbows. - you can,t *dance on the pedals* as lance puts it (mind you if take what he was on you might be able to)
> giving it in watts would be a meaningless number - mph on a bike is far more relivant - and thats what I've acheived and I'm a knackered old fart.


 
I think it was Charlie Holland who first said that. Lance was excellent at plagiarism. He was high as a kite on fame as well as dope and thought he'd get away with using other people's words.


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## DaveK (14 Mar 2013)

I have 3 of the Sufferfest videos, The Hunted, Angels and There is No Try. All excellent, and give me a harder workout than I would in the same time on the road outside. The Hunted is especially good, by far my favourite. Would highly recommend the videos to anyone.


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## Licramite (14 Mar 2013)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> I do have a reliable speedo yes, but what I don't do is use speed on the turbo. It is meaningless beyond meaningless. I really shouldn't have to explain why this is the case. In actual fact it has been explained to you on multiple occasions, even recently by Rob3rt.
> 
> Please just stop promoting this stupid position of yours. It doesn't do anything you say it does apart from make you look like a bit of a prat, with no knowledge of TT'ing.


 
- so how do you measure effort - on how sweaty you are at the end? - I use speed as my indicator as to how well - or bady - I have done in that season. - measuring heart rate or calories burned (both must go down the fitter you get so you would end up chasing your tail so to speak) I don't think is much of an indicator I prefere mph a a more tangible measure

I have never done TTing , I dare say all the TTers are laughing up thier lycra at me - I'm only saying what works for me on a turbo trainer for upping your speed. -

I have tried to watch 'Training' dvds - but find the music uninspiring and generally I have far better video in my head of runs I've done. - I think the real answer is better music.


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## Ningishzidda (14 Mar 2013)

Just in case there is someone from my club who I race against reading this, I will write a load of bullc**p to disinfo him.


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## jonny jeez (14 Mar 2013)

I will admit to having given up on my turbo. Its excellent, a tacx Flow, but I really haven't found a situation so far this winter where I simply cannot get out on the road instead.

I appreciate that many will use the turbo's to get the type of training that isn't available on a standard UK road, but for the likes of me, who just wanted to keep my hand in all winter, there was no replacement for the road.

Really must put my tacx up on ebay.


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## d87francis (14 Mar 2013)

Between here and bikeradar I can't escape persistent morons .

What's wrong with taking heed of other people's advice or being slightly less arrogant in your opinions? In life we wouldn't put up with such people, but on forums there is no escape. It's just slightly more sophisticated trolling.


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## Licramite (14 Mar 2013)

DaveK said:


> I have 3 of the Sufferfest videos, The Hunted, Angels and There is No Try. All excellent, and give me a harder workout than I would in the same time on the road outside. The Hunted is especially good, by far my favourite. Would highly recommend the videos to anyone.


 
I just checked them out - I don't know how it works but I would need binoculars to watch it, as the riders would be a small dot on the horizon in no time at all compared to my speed up a hill -they look horrendous hills. ( was watching - Angel) music looked good, I shall have to check those out.

it's always a quondry, I got half hour of daylight in an evening, go out or hit the turbo, I don't think I could do as a good a work out in half hour - or an hour -out on the bike as I can on the turbo in the same time.

looking forward to the summer.


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## DaveK (14 Mar 2013)

The Sufferfest are just recorded videos and are not interactive. Its perceived effort, i.e. 7/10 or 9/10 effort etc (all dictated by on screen commands). Some people hook their bikes up to power meters for comparison etc. but I don't do anything that complex.

I love them as they are simply turn on tv/pc jump on TT and away you got for an hour. Time passes very quickly.

I have only managed to get out after work in the past couple of weeks. I don't trust drivers after dark.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (14 Mar 2013)

Licramite said:


> - so how do you measure effort - on how sweaty you are at the end? - I use speed as my indicator as to how well - or bady - I have done in that season. - measuring heart rate or calories burned (both must go down the fitter you get so you would end up chasing your tail so to speak) I don't think is much of an indicator I prefere mph a a more tangible measure
> 
> I have never done TTing , I dare say all the TTers are laughing up thier lycra at me - I'm only saying what works for me on a turbo trainer for upping your speed. -
> 
> I have tried to watch 'Training' dvds - but find the music uninspiring and generally I have far better video in my head of runs I've done. - I think the real answer is better music.


RPE.


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## Licramite (14 Mar 2013)

RPE - ?
yea that was me falling off, - my chain kept coming off which when your going slowely up a hill on turbos is a bit fatal. - I didn't say the turbos didn't give leverage , I said I wondered if the instability outweighs the advantage (but not in those exact words) I can see if you got drop bars getting off the turbos makes sense as I think you would be in pritty much the same position , forward of your pedals , but have more control. so in that stu9 may well be right.
still have no idea how I broke my helmet.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (14 Mar 2013)

You are definitely special.


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## Hip Priest (14 Mar 2013)

Licramite said:


> so would James watt. - but watt does a watt mean to you in real terms of Lsd - a mph , a pound pressure, a foot or a yard all mean things , a calorie ? a juel ? what the F do they mean - there just numbers.
> 
> as for thmet - you don't have a spedo on your turbo? and no I find if the weight is on your arms,the tip of the saddle is a fulcrum I can get more spin out my legs - If you don't agree all I can say is try it.



I don't have a speedo on my turbo, just a clock. I warm up for five minutes, then do intervals of 1 min hard effort followed by 2 mins gentle spinning, then I warm down for 5 minutes.

Speed on a turbo is always 0mph!


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## Licramite (14 Mar 2013)

Hip Priest said:


> I don't have a speedo on my turbo, just a clock. I warm up for five minutes, then do intervals of 1 min hard effort followed by 2 mins gentle spinning, then I warm down for 5 minutes.
> 
> Speed on a turbo is always 0mph!


 
only if you fix it to the front wheel.
get a cheep cycle computer, hook it up to the back wheel , it will give you speed,rpm,calories,time distance covered. (theotrically)
I would take the readings with a pinch of salt - but they are a good measure as to how your doing between each session. once you have found your level, then you can gauge your progress. - how else could I know I've upped my speed by 2-3mph otherwise.

something else that makes a real difference - you may have this already- get clipless pedals on the turbo. - it teaches the correct pedal action using the upstroke as well as the downstroke.


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## Rob3rt (14 Mar 2013)

Licramite said:


> In that postion without bars you have no leverage, your still resting your weight on your bum not your elbows. - you can,t dance on the pedals as lance puts it (mind you if take what he was on you might be able to)
> *giving it in watts would be a meaningless number - mph on a bike is far more relivant* - and thats what I've acheived and I'm a knackered old fart.


 
WRONG, of all metrics able to be measured on the move, power is the single most useful metric.

Edit, whilst eating my dinner I will contemplate whether it is worth explaining why most/all of what you have said on this and other recent threads about this topic is either ill-informed or just plain wrong.


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## Rob3rt (14 Mar 2013)

Okay, re. aero bars.

Balance/Control/Handling: Whilst you should not have excessive weight on the aero bars, there will inevitably a forward shift of weight over the front end, this will negatively impact bike handling and control, leading to instability. TT bikes get around this by having a slacker head tube angle and/or more fork rake, so that the weight is still far enough behind the front wheel hub in order to handle in a stable way, particularly in a straight line and through moderate bends. The narrow grip, forward shift of weight and no access to the brakes makes cornering on the aero bars a challenge, for most corners you would get OFF of the aero bars and onto the base bar/bull horn for control and access to the brakes. When climbing, if you need to get out of the saddle, you also need to get off of the aero bars, reason, the bike will rock side to side, to output most power and maintain stability, you must be able to resist the rocking with your upper body, this requires a wider grip. Only on low gradient climbs, such as long drags of something like 2-5% would you typically ride on the aero bars, because you are able to remain seated for the duration of the climb and would be going fast enough to get a benefit from the aerodynamic position.

Power on aero bars: Riding on aero bars would in most cases will cause the hip angle to become more acute, limiting power output, not increasing it. BUT, the aerodynamic benefit often outweighs the drop in power output, provided you do not close the hip angle too much. Again, referring back to bikes made to be fitted with aero bars, they have a steeper seat tube angle, shorter top tube and shorter head tube in order to rotate the rider forward around the ankle joint, getting them low at the front without closing the hip angle. You will also notice TT riders pull themselves forward on the saddle, this opens up the hip angle. Generally, you are aiming to preserve as much capacity to output power whilst reducing frontal area, it is a compromise and in most cases some loss of power will be inevitable (unless you are a specialist who rides in this position most of the time thus being most well trained to operate within this hip angle envelope), but so long as the aerodynamic benefit outweighs it, it is game on!


Re. Training Metrics

Power is the ultimate metric because it actually tells you how hard you are working. It doesn't matter whether you are riding into a head wind, up hill, down hill, on the flat, it doesn't matter if it is hot or cold. If you are putting out 200W, you are putting out 200W, whether you are going 20mph on the flat or 12mph up a hill, you are doing the same amount of work. This makes it both the ultimate pacing tool and also the ultimate training tool (both in real time and in post-ride analysis, you can determine a remarkable amount of information from this metric). Speed is a piss poor metric to measure on most turbo trainers because the resistance curve varies day to day due to various reasons, such as differing temperatures, so your speed will vary day to day for the same power output. If you go faster one day, vs the previous day, you have very little idea if you have gained fitness, or if the turbo trainer resistance curve has changed due to it being warmer or colder.


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## Hip Priest (14 Mar 2013)

Top stuff from Rob.


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## Rob3rt (14 Mar 2013)

Licramite said:


> you don't say what music you listen to.
> get the headphones on get your favourite ZZtop tracks and burn to that.
> 
> *I actually hit stage 4 the other night - good beginning speed for pro racers - I'm out of the mild exercise area.*
> *- F-me - !*


 
WTF does that even mean?



Licramite said:


> - so how do you measure effort - on how sweaty you are at the end? - I use speed as my indicator as to how well - or bady - I have done in that season. - *measuring heart rate* or calories burned (*both must go down the fitter you get so you would end up chasing your tail so to speak*) I don't think is much of an indicator I prefere mph a a more tangible measure
> 
> *I have never done TTing , I dare say all the TTers are laughing up thier lycra at me* - I'm only saying what works for me on a turbo trainer for upping your speed. -
> 
> I have tried to watch 'Training' dvds - but find the music uninspiring and generally I have far better video in my head of runs I've done. - I think the real answer is better music.


 
This logic is outright mental. As you increase fitness, your HR for a given power output will likely go down, but that does not matter, if you are training using HR, you would be aiming for a given HR value (measured as a % of your MHR ot LTHR) so as you get fitter, nothing would change other than that for a certain HR value, you would be putting out more power.

They probably are, I had a bit of a laugh!



Licramite said:


> RPE - ?
> yea that was me falling off, - my chain kept coming off which when your going slowely up a hill on turbos is a bit fatal. - I didn't say the turbos didn't give leverage , I said I wondered if the instability outweighs the advantage (but not in those exact words) I can see if you got drop bars getting off the turbos makes sense as I think you would be in pritty much the same position , forward of your pedals , but have more control. so in that stu9 may well be right.
> still have no idea how I broke my helmet.


 
RPE = Rate of Percieved Exertion and there are several scales outlined in the literature. One of the most common is the Borg scale.


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## Rob3rt (14 Mar 2013)

Hip Priest said:


> I'm not training for racing (and have only a cheap trainer) but how do you increase your 60 minute power? Just going as hard as you can sustain for 60 mins?


 
There are lots of traditional methods for increasing FTP, the most common is probably the 2x20 session, basically, warm up, then ride at threshold for 20 minutes. Probably somewhere around the high 80's, maybe 90% or so in terms of MHR, you will feel your legs burning but it won't be the sort of excessive burning like in an all out sprint or anaerobic effort, more like a tightening feeling, at least that is how I would describe it, you should be able to push through and go for 20 minutes, but it will require considerable mental effort and focus. After the 20 minute interval take a rest for 10-15 mins by riding at an aerobic/endurance intensity then go again for another 20 minutes at threshold. Then cool down. You should be able to complete both intervals at the same intensity (approx 3-5% variance in intensity is okay, hard to measure without a PM tbh best to use your judgement and basically, if you are not able to go hard enough in the second interval, just stop and save it for another day, think why you couldn't complete, went to hard in the 1st interval? Try being a bit more reserved next time. Or reduce the duration of each interval and build up to 20 mins).

Other workouts would be tempo efforts riding at about 85% MHR for a prolonged period of time, at least an hour, up to 2 if you can, again this requires considerable mental effort as it will become boring, uncomfortable and increasingly difficult.

Another is the sweet spot session, this is called the sweet spot because it has the required intensity to increase lactate threshold but is moderate enough to recover quickly in order to repeat it, thus having the greatest return for the time spent. You can do these as a 2x20 session riding at high tempo/low threshold rather than a full threshold intensity, I prefer to just ride for 40 minutes in one chunk and call it a day.

You could ride for 60 mins as hard as you can if you want, but most people won't want to, it would be mentally very taxing.

I am not a training expert, just outlining some training sessions I have found in different literature and use regularly. I would vouch for their effectiveness based on my data.


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## Hip Priest (14 Mar 2013)

Not got a heart rate monitor, but will look into getting one. I know I've got a resting heart rate of 40bpm, which is supposedly extremely low, but is down to genes rather than fitness I expect!


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## Rob3rt (14 Mar 2013)

You don't need one, if you are a good judge of your own effort, additional tools are handy, but not essential. That said anything that removes or reduces the opportunity to lie to yourself about how hard you are working is a good thing though IMO.


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## Licramite (15 Mar 2013)

RPE -  I love it - I think I worked really hard last night much harder than the night before - so I must be making progress. - or the exact opposite , I worked really hard because my fitness was down. - so it felt harder.

of course I can use a derivative of RPE - GMPOinW - Guess my power output - in watts Imust havee been doing at least 200watts of power.

I cannot see anything more pointless than siting on a turbo trainer for half an hour pedalling lick F and having no measure of progress or effort. - The more knackered you become what appears to be equal effort is actually going slower. 
I find a measure incentives me to work harder, I expect to do 20k in 30minutes , if after 15minutes I,m only at 8k I've got some work to do (actually thats about right as the first 10 minutes I'm just warming up so slower)

I would say a turbo trainer is a prettyneutrall ride in that it has very few external variables between each ride, no wind ect.
so if you did 17mph today for half hour you can expect to do it tomorrow , the variable is you.

- Black -


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## Arsen Gere (15 Mar 2013)

I usually try to use the same setup on my turbo each time. Some people may find my methods useful so I'll post them here.

What you need : A bike, a turbo and a rear wheel mounted speedo. A cadence sensor would be useful too. I use a Cateye Strada Cadence computer.
A stopwatch will be useful for setup. Pen and Paper.

Why calibrate your turbo ? So you have a referrence. If you don't do this you won't know where you are and will become demotivated later. When you improve you need to know that you have improved from a change in your body not your equipment.

How I calibrate a turbo.

Setup : Do this each time you get on your bike and turbo
1) Mount your bike on your turbo so the back wheel spins free.
2) Blow up the tyre to a pressure you are going to use in each session. I use 100 psi, if it is too hard the tyre may slip. If it is too soft it can slip and may get hot. Blow it up before introducing the roller !
3) Make sure the brakes do not touch the rim.
4) Set up the load the same way each time. See below for how to do this.


Introduce the load roller to the bike tyre so that it just touches, spin the wheel and you will see it drag as the roller is introduced. If the wheel is excentric it will touch then miss, get it trued up. Now add load to the wheel by screwing the load roller up to the tyre. Try one turn and try a test with that. More turns = more load.
If it is a mag turbo set it roughly in the middle of whatever range and start off with that.
Get on the bike and pedal. The back wheel may slip a bit as you start off but keep pedalling and watch and listen for slip as you pick up speed.
If it slips when you are at a constant rate you may need to have the wheel trued or increase the pressure of the roller on the tyre.
Pedal the bike to a speed to you can hold steady for a couple of seconds. I use 30mph. Start the watch and stop pedalling. Watch the back wheel come to rest. Stop the watch and write down the time it took for the wheel to come to rest.
Repeat this another 3 times and record the average time it takes to stop. With the load setup (turns on screw or mag setting) this is your reference so you can repeat the same setup time after time.

You can adjust the load on the rear roller to increase or decrease this stopping time. I have mine set to about 10 to 11 seconds to come to rest. This means my 20 min TT on the turbo is close to my 12 mile TT average speed.

Check this periodically to see if anything has changed. I do it every time, it takes about 20 seconds to and I do it as part of my warm up. You can use this method at the end of your session too to see whether the turbo has got harder or easier with time and heat.
My fluid trainer gets harder and the time a wheel comes to rest comes down at the end of a session. It is not what I expected.
Note this method is not entirely fool proof as the inertial of the wheel will be different for different wheel types and weights, the same with tyres.

On completing this setup you have an instrument that can be used to prove your performance has improved.
This is setup to measure your RELATIVE performance. The speed on the turbo is not the same as the speed on the road. However with a bit of practice you can adjust the load so that they are similar.


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## Rob3rt (15 Mar 2013)

Licramite said:


> RPE -  I love it - I think I worked really hard last night much harder than the night before - so I must be making progress. - or the exact opposite , I worked really hard because my fitness was down. - so it felt harder.
> 
> of course I can use a derivative of RPE - GMPOinW - Guess my power output - in watts Imust havee been doing at least 200watts of power.
> 
> ...


 
Did I waste my time explaining to you why this is not the case?


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## Licramite (15 Mar 2013)

No - I just don't agree with you.
Turbo has got to have the least number of variables as its a controlled environment, no wind resistance , no road variables and if you set your bike up as Arsen does your in damn near scientific testing conditions.
Watts of power ? - isn't measured on a cycle computer (though I dare say you could find an obscure one that does). Admittedly on a turbo it doesn't matter which parameter your going to measure yourself against, - watts produced, mph - its only an indicator of performance. -
The aerobars thing is for a different thread, (not that I,m disagreeing with what you said) but maybe for turboing they should be looked at as under - look at your riding position , are you in the best posture for performance.
I find they help by putting me in a very attack position and forcing me to work harder.


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## Rob3rt (15 Mar 2013)

Arsene Gear talks sense, he sets his turbo trainer up using a well thought out protocol, do you? I doubt it.

Riding the turbo trainer may have less external influences than outdoors, but the influences that it is subject to are substantial enough to render speed measurement useless unless you go to great lengths such as those outlined by Arsene Gear.

Your comments are absolute bullshit (I think you are the only person on here who has not realised this yet)... if you do 17mph for 1 hour today, you won't neccessarily be able to do that tomorrow, as the resistance curve of the turbo trainer (and other settings with regards to your bike) will change by tomorrow in most cases. I would hazard a guess that 99% of turbo trainer users do not calibrate their turbo like Arsene Gear!


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (15 Mar 2013)

Licramite said:


> No - I just don't agree with you.
> Turbo has got to have the least number of variables as its a controlled environment,


My dining room is a controlled environment? Should I stop my family from walking through in case they change the air temperature?



> no wind resistance , no road variables


Both reasons why speed is meaningless. There is zero correlation between 30mph on a turbo and 30mph on the road. They are if you will, chalk and cheese.



> and if you set your bike up as Arsen does your in damn near scientific testing conditions.


At what point is a scientific condition in any way close to how the average person mounts a bike on a turbo in their shed/house/garage?



> Watts of power ? - isn't measured on a cycle computer (though I dare say you could find an obscure one that does). Admittedly on a turbo it doesn't matter which parameter your going to measure yourself against, - watts produced, mph - its only an indicator of performance. -


Power is an indication of your performance and output(your legs and cv system). Speed is an indication of how fast your rear wheel is turning against a metal roller while none of the road going factors effect it.

They are not the same thing, nor in any way similar.



> The aerobars thing is for a different thread, (not that I,m disagreeing with what you said) but maybe for turboing they should be looked at as under - look at your riding position , are you in the best posture for performance.
> I find they help by putting me in a very attack position and forcing me to work harder.


Is putting weight on aero-bars with your arse off the saddle the best posture for performance? If so, why does nobody else in the world do it?


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## d87francis (15 Mar 2013)

@Licramite - You've missed the biggest variable of all, the level of pressure between the rear wheel and the turbo fly wheel. I don't think you can guarantee that it will be the same every time you clip your bike in and our of the turbo.


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## Licramite (15 Mar 2013)

I don't take the bike out so it probably don't change much.- I do check occasionally.- good point though.

only a complete idiot would try and compare performance on the turbo to what he's going to achieve on the road - I may be an idiot (tmhnet) -but I'm not that dumb.
And if minor changes in air tempritures, position of the moon and the sun to earth or slight mechanical changes on the turbo change things - I still have the same target and I damn well go for it.
I go by mph , choose your own factor , at least I don't use the -' how did I feel that went to today ' method.
good question - I don't know why more people don't use aero bars maybe they should give it a go before dismissing it.

and yes I don't set my turbo up as finely as Arsn - lifes to short - but good for him. I know my cycle computer is not accurate - at least its consistantly inaccurate - its only a target.


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## Rob3rt (15 Mar 2013)

Licramite said:


> I don't take the bike out so it probably don't change much.- I do check occasionally.- good point though.
> 
> only a complete idiot would try and compare performance on the turbo to what he's going to achieve on the road - I may be an idiot (tmhnet) -but I'm not that dumb.
> And if minor changes in air tempritures, position of the moon and the sun to earth or slight mechanical changes on the turbo change things - I still have the same target and I damn well go for it.
> ...


 
That is not what RPE is. Please do some reading!

I ride on aero bars plenty, for time trials and training for time trials, i.e. for the purpose they are intended for!


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## G3CWI (15 Mar 2013)

Wrong thread - sorry


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (15 Mar 2013)

Licramite said:


> only a complete idiot would try and compare performance on the turbo to what he's going to achieve on the road - I may be an idiot (tmhnet) -*but I'm not that dumb*.


The evidence on the contrary is overwhelming.



> I go by mph , choose your own factor , at least I don't use the -' how did I feel that went to today ' method.
> good question


Which is not RPE. I suggest you do some reading.



> I don't know why more people don't use aero bars maybe they should give it a go before dismissing it.


People do use aero bars,but only an idiot would use your method.


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## Licramite (15 Mar 2013)

Rob3rt said:


> That is not what RPE is. Please do some reading!
> 
> I ride on aero bars plenty, for time trials and training for time trials, i.e. for the purpose they are intended for!


 
I read the Borg test - its the herbal medican of the training world. - I'm afraid I'm not a sholain monk.-
and if you go on the thread 'Get my heart rate up' you will see the bit about training levels to heart rate - as I said I got to level 4 (briefly) which is the begining level for a racers workout. and about 40% of my max heart rate - and I was Fkd.

but let me apologise for earlier comments, I should have guessed you did TT. (But on other sites people do use them for hillclimbing - although I'm coming to the conclusion I'm going to have to up my handling skills to make them worth thier while. - but I'm getting off topic)


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## Licramite (15 Mar 2013)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> The evidence on the contrary is overwhelming.
> 
> Which is not RPE. I suggest you do some reading.
> 
> ...


 
Huh - I've been called an idiot by bigger idiots than you !


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## Demonclimber (15 Mar 2013)

Licramite said:


> I read the Borg test - its the herbal medican of the training world. - I'm afraid I'm not a sholain monk.-
> and if you go on the thread 'Get my heart rate up' you will see the bit about training levels to heart rate - as I said I got to level 4 (briefly) which is the begining level for a racers workout. and about 40% of my max heart rate - and I was Fkd.
> 
> but let me apologise for earlier comments, I should have guessed you did TT. (But on other sites people do use them for hillclimbing - although I'm coming to the conclusion I'm going to have to up my handling skills to make them worth thier while. - but I'm getting off topic)


????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (15 Mar 2013)

Licramite said:


> I read the Borg test - its the herbal medican of the training world. - I'm afraid I'm not a sholain monk.-


You didn't as the borg test doesn't exist. It is the Borg Scale and it is not a test.



> and if you go on the thread 'Get my heart rate up' you will see the bit about training levels to heart rate - as I said I got to level 4 (briefly) which is the begining level for a racers workout. and about 40% of my max heart rate - and I was Fkd.


Zone4 as you posted = 82-89% so at the very least a Z4 ride would start at 137bpm

MaxHR you claim to be 168 of which 40% is 67BPM. 137bpm is therefore not 40% of your max hr so you simply can't have been near Z4.



> but let me apologise for earlier comments, I should have guessed you did TT. (But on other sites people do use them for hillclimbing - although I'm coming to the conclusion I'm going to have to up my handling skills to make them worth thier while. - but I'm getting off topic)


Now it's a handling issue? So the extra power you put out(notably claimed as MPH)


> How much more power?
> *2-3mph*


doesn't exist now?



Licramite said:


> Huh - I've been called an idiot by bigger idiots than you !


You have indeed. By yourself.


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## Rob3rt (15 Mar 2013)

Licramite said:


> I read the Borg test - its the herbal medican of the training world. - I'm afraid I'm not a sholain monk.-
> and if you go on the thread 'Get my heart rate up' you will see the bit about training levels to heart rate - as I said I got to level 4 (briefly) which is the begining level for a racers workout. and about 40% of my max heart rate - and I was Fkd.
> 
> but let me apologise for earlier comments, I should have guessed you did TT. (But on other sites people do use them for hillclimbing - although I'm coming to the conclusion I'm going to have to up my handling skills to make them worth thier while. - but I'm getting off topic)


 
I am well aware of the basics of how HR training is conducted, apparently you are not!

The Borg scale (and other such scales) is used extensively along with other methods for rating training intensity. If you rely solely on gadgets what do you do in a race when your power meter battery runs out, or your Garmin ceases to work? You are forced to revert to rating your perceived exertion through feel, it is something you should do regularly in training and note the correlation to other objective measurements so you are not completely screwed if your gadgets fail.


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## Licramite (15 Mar 2013)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> You didn't as the borg test doesn't exist. It is the Borg Scale and it is not a test.
> 
> 
> Zone4 as you posted = 82-89% so at the very least a Z4 ride would start at 137bpm
> ...


just to clarify
your right zone 4 was 82-89% - which was bloody hard. - and I didn't sustain it for long - but at least I know I achieved that and didn't think I achieved it.
the 2-3mph was on a turbo not on a bike going up a hill wobbly - two different conversations here. and again I know I did it because I had a spedo on my turbo and again not by how I felt. - or imagined.

fortunately don't have to worry about kit failure on a turbo - so I don't have to think how well I did, I use a cycle computer.


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## Licramite (15 Mar 2013)

Demonclimber said:


> ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????


I had a keyboard like that but it was the F key , got me into loads of trouble


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (15 Mar 2013)

Licramite said:


> just to clarify
> your right zone 4 was 82-89% - which was bloody hard. - and I didn't sustain it for long - but at least I know I achieved that and didn't think I achieved it.


Yes,dying at 137bpm is worth celebrating.



> the 2-3mph was on a turbo not on a bike going up a hill wobbly - two different conversations here


It's funny, you claimed aero bars gave you more power in this very thread,and seem to have forgot about it. More power(W) which you categorically stated, equaled 2-3MPH
http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/turbo-trainers-rejoice.126047/#post-2359275
http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/turbo-trainers-rejoice.126047/#post-2359286



> and again I know I did it because I had a spedo on my turbo and again not by how I felt. - or imagined.


Once again. You measured something which is highly meaningless,trying to justify it and doing a very poor job. I have a spd/cad sensor on my bike, I use a HRM - I use interactive training software, hell I even use my Edge800.

None of that tech is required and all it can produce is some numbers,some of which have merit depending on how you apply them.

Here are some: 1 - 30 - 17 - 172 - 2013 - 13 - 14 - 0 What to they mean?



> fortunately don't have to worry about kit failure on a turbo - so* I don't have to think how well I did*, I use a cycle computer.


You still haven't got this RPE thing I see(or a general clue about training)


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## frayBentos59 (16 Mar 2013)

Soooooooooooo...did I mention I really enjoyed the 3LC DVD?


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (16 Mar 2013)

frayBentos59 said:


> Soooooooooooo...did I mention I really enjoyed the 3LC DVD?


Yes


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## Seamab (16 Mar 2013)

frayBentos59 said:


> Soooooooooooo...did I mention I really enjoyed the 3LC DVD?



I note your dissatisfaction with the Tacx Genius RLV's and your enjoyment of the 3LC. Perhaps the Tacx Ergovideos (section "Training with the Pro's" on the Tacx website) may suit you better. These differ from RLV's in that the power is set by the video and you have to match the power of the riders. Some of them contain intervals of various types/lengths and might be more what you are looking for. In particular the Rabobank and Quickstep Ergos. They are also available for 17.50 euros direct from Tacx which is quite a bit cheaper than most RLV's.

I have the Milan- San Remo RLV which is fairly boring (flat) for the first half but the second half is much better and has a few climbs. I have a Fortius and would agree that it struggles on steeper slopes. However you can use the powermode option on all these rides to increase or decrease slope/power.


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## Licramite (19 Mar 2013)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Yes,dying at 137bpm is worth celebrating.
> 
> It's funny, you claimed aero bars gave you more power in this very thread,and seem to have forgot about it. More power(W) which you categorically stated, equaled 2-3MPH
> http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/turbo-trainers-rejoice.126047/#post-2359275
> ...


actually if you could explain RPE I would be most grateful. as I read it, but it still sounds like herbalism to me. -
no confusion (unless you want it to be)
on a turbo trainer I found aerbars puts me in a really attack postion and increased my pedal speed by 2-3mph.
on hill climbing if gave me more push but has big downsides , or fall off sides actually.

all this fancy kit you have , is it on your turbo trainer?


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (19 Mar 2013)

Licramite said:


> actually if you could explain RPE I would be most grateful. as I read it, but it still sounds like herbalism to me. -
> no confusion (unless you want it to be)


http://www.brianmac.co.uk/borgscale.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borg_scale
http://www.topendsports.com/testing/rpe.htm
http://my.clevelandclinic.org/heart/prevention/exercise/rpe.aspx



> on a turbo trainer I found aerbars puts me in a really attack postion and increased my pedal speed by 2-3mph.
> on hill climbing if gave me more push but has big downsides , or fall off sides actually.


Dear god.... You pedal in MPH? Every other cyclist pedals in RPM.



> all this fancy kit you have , is it on your turbo trainer?


I usually attach it all to the cat to see where he goes at night.


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## Licramite (19 Mar 2013)

when you get in your car you think in RpM ?-really. - sorry call me old fashioned. I think in terms of speed not how fast my legs are spinning.
I read all the links - again, read those already- apart from linking to actual heart rate , its still herbal medicine - I will stick to me odometer., mph , and how much I sweat,
1 bucket or 20.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (19 Mar 2013)

Licramite said:


> when you get in your car you think in RpM ?-really. - sorry call me old fashioned. I think in terms of speed not how fast my legs are spinning.
> I read all the links - again, read those already- apart from linking to actual heart rate , its still herbal medicine - I will stick to me odometer., mph , and how much I sweat,
> 1 bucket or 20.


I don't know why I bother. Even primary school science terms are beyond you.


> on a turbo trainer I found aerbars puts me in a really attack postion and *increased my pedal speed by 2-3mph*.
> on hill climbing if gave me more push but has big downsides , or fall off sides actually.


 
MPH: The number of statute miles travelled per hour. 1 mile = 1,609metres 1HR = 60 minutes

RPMs the frequency of rotation based on a fixed axis in 1minute periods hence the name.

At no point in cycling do your pedals ever travel in MPH, because they can't and nobody measures speed at the pedal. They measure cadence or RPM.

My car, idles around 1200 RPM, at 1200RPM with no gear engaged it cannot cause the car to travel, measured in MPH. Conversely, the speed at which my car can travel is limited by a combination of gearing and RPM of the engine. Example: My car cannot achieve 60MPH @ 1200RPM


Are there any other basics I need to explain to you?


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## Licramite (19 Mar 2013)

sorry mate I don't think we talk the same language
bored with this now Tara.


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## frayBentos59 (19 Mar 2013)

Thanks seamab, excellent advice thank you. I'll check them out. Although I did order another two 3LC dvd's so I may be some time getting g around to the tacx stuff  thanks for the heads up mate


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (20 Mar 2013)

Licramite said:


> sorry mate I don't think we talk the same language
> bored with this now Tara.


What language do they speak on your home planet? Tis strange, you were happily quoting MPH this and MPH that for most of the thread.


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## Arsen Gere (20 Mar 2013)

Licramite said:


> sorry mate I don't think we talk the same language
> bored with this now Tara.


 
PM me if you would like me to unravel some of the mysteries of this training business in constructive way.


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## Rob3rt (20 Mar 2013)

Arsen Gere said:


> PM me if you would like me to unravel some of the mysteries of this training business in constructive way.


 
You have more patience than me, good on you for offering!


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## Arsen Gere (20 Mar 2013)

Rob3rt said:


> You have more patience than me, good on you for offering!


 
Cheers. A lot depends on peoples motivation rather than knowledge, that is easy to add. I think Licramite is motivated so the rest is just getting the principles across in the right terms.


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## vorsprung (20 Mar 2013)

Licramite said:


> No - I just don't agree with you.
> Watts of power ? - isn't measured on a cycle computer (though I dare say you could find an obscure one that does). Admittedly on a turbo it doesn't matter which parameter your going to measure yourself against, - watts produced, mph - its only an indicator of performance..


 
On fluid trainers there is a predictable relationship between the "speed" on the trainer and the power. ISTR it isn't entirely linear. Kurt Kinetics make a relatively cheap power meter for their fluid trainers that does the simple calculation for you.
So you are right, speed is perfectly ok as a measure because there is a direct relationship between the two.


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