# Saddle Height.



## Slick (20 Jan 2017)

I know that this should be a reasonably simple thing to get right, but I'm starting to think it's a bit more complex than I first thought. Long story short, I got a professional bike fit, which was good but probably the biggest difference was the height he raised the saddle by, well that and the cost of the new one.

Fast forward a bit, and I'm getting measured for a new bike. He keeps putting the seat up higher and higher, before declaring that's about right, although it didn't feel particularly comfortable to me. I've not got the bike yet but I thought I would set my own bike to the height suggested and try it on my commute. It felt fast, my cruising speed rose by around 5kph, but really uncomfortable on the ass and felt like a bit of extra pressure on the wrists. I certainly wouldn't like to be in that position all day. 

I suppose my question is, should the bigger frame on the new bike alleviate the pressure on the wrists, is everyone trying to strike a balance between comfort and efficiency with saddle height, or would you set it to match whatever you want to achieve on any particular day, or have I totally misunderstood the whole process and overthought it?


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## mjr (20 Jan 2017)

I suppose my answer is: don't know about the bigger frame (trying to predict how changes affect wrist pressure hurts my head... but I think it would depend if your current bars were too close, hence putting pressure on your wrists, but then why not just change their position); no - for me, comfortable and efficient seem to be the same thing; not usually but I have sometimes run it deliberately low on frosty mornings; and probably and certainly


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## helston90 (20 Jan 2017)

My fitter reminded me a few times that it was a process. After he put my saddle up similarly to yours and found I was getting pins and needles it came down by half a cm, then rotation of the bars, then this, then that, constantly tweaking based on the ball park which he got me to. 

If it's fast but comfortably give it a little while, see if you think you can get used to it, if not change it a smidge.


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## Broadside (20 Jan 2017)

helston90 said:


> My fitter reminded me a few times that it was a process. After he put my saddle up similarly to yours and found I was getting pins and needles it came down by half a cm, then rotation of the bars, then this, then that, constantly tweaking based on the ball park which he got me to.
> 
> If it's fast but comfortably give it a little while, see if you think you can get used to it, if not change it a smidge.



I agree with this; bike fitting is one thing but I find it best to take Allen keys with me for the first couple of hundred miles with a new bike and tweak the setup on the road as I notice something is not quite right. It takes lots of very minor adjustments and then when it's good leave it alone and don't let anyone touch it!!


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## Slick (20 Jan 2017)

My thoughts on the bigger frame which I didn't explain is the difference in height between the saddle and bars will be less with the bigger frame, reducing the pressure on the wrists. 

So far I'm at fast but feels really uncomfortable. Okay, leave it for another couple of rides before dropping it 20mm at a time to see what suits.


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## mythste (20 Jan 2017)

Slick said:


> My thoughts on the bigger frame which I didn't explain is the difference in height between the saddle and bars will be less with the bigger frame, reducing the pressure on the wrists.
> 
> So far I'm at fast but feels really uncomfortable. Okay, leave it for another couple of rides before dropping it 20mm at a time to see what suits.



If by 20mm you mean 2mm then yes, do that!


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## Slick (20 Jan 2017)

mythste said:


> If by 20mm you mean 2mm then yes, do that!


I thought maybe I had overshot when I said 20mm, but didn't think 2mm would be even noticeable.


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## Slick (20 Jan 2017)

I'll try that then.


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## cyberknight (20 Jan 2017)

Theres bike fits and bike fits , depends if he fitted you for comfort , speed or what ?
Does the fitter have a follow up service to address issues that might have arisen from the fit ?

I used to get pain in my shoulders and numb hands and it turned out my set up was to high and too far foward so i dropped the saddle 5 mm , back on the rails and a shorter stem so my weight was further back but the same effective height with a bit shorter reach.


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## Slick (20 Jan 2017)

cyberknight said:


> Theres bike fits and bike fits , depends if he fitted you for comfort , speed or what ?
> Does the fitter have a follow up service to address issues that might have arisen from the fit ?
> 
> I used to get pain in my shoulders and numb hands and it turned out my set up was to high and too far foward so i dropped the saddle 5 mm , back on the rails and a shorter stem so my weight was further back but the same effective height with a bit shorter reach.


Yeah, I did wonder if it was just one opinion versus another or if as you say, the original fitter was a bit more considerate to my level at that time. He does have an after sales service and I could go back to confirm, but it's now quite a distance from where I live so I am hoping my new found knowledge and the experience on the forum could save me quite a journey.


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## MichaelW2 (20 Jan 2017)

Saddle to pedal distance may need t obe linked to fore-aft movement. Triathletes often rotate their position up and forward compared to a road tt position. 
An adjustable stem is a valuable tool for getting the bar position optimised.
Whatever works for you is the right solution.


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## mjr (20 Jan 2017)

Slick said:


> Yeah, I did wonder if it was just one opinion versus another or if as you say, the original fitter was a bit more considerate to my level at that time.


I think the recognised answer is "nyeeeeargh"  There are clearly a variety of positions which will preserve the optimal distances between the various connections while varying the angles - and the optimal (and possible?) ranges of angles will probably vary depending on fitness, frame and many other factors. There are various famous schools of thought on bike fits and they don't completely agree.

I try to move my saddle no more than 5mm at a time when adjusting fit. Definitely not 20mm in one go but I'm more a "do what feels right" type of guy. According to online tools, my road bike position is close to Merckx style, which surprises me as I rarely feel anywhere near that low, although I do use the drops more than many.


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## cyberknight (21 Jan 2017)

mjr said:


> I think the recognised answer is "nyeeeeargh"  There are clearly a variety of positions which will preserve the optimal distances between the various connections while varying the angles - and the optimal (and possible?) ranges of angles will probably vary depending on fitness, frame and many other factors. There are various famous schools of thought on bike fits and they don't completely agree.
> 
> I try to move my saddle no more than 5mm at a time when adjusting fit. Definitely not 20mm in one go but I'm more a "do what feels right" type of guy. According to online tools, my road bike position is close to Merckx style, which surprises me as I rarely feel anywhere near that low, although I do use the drops more than many.


This is worth a read .
http://bikeretrogrouch.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/changing-positions.html


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## Mrs M (21 Jan 2017)

I buy a bike that feels good as soon as I sit on it 
Then twiddle about a bit with saddle height, bars, etc until it feels perfect.


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## cyberknight (21 Jan 2017)

Mrs M said:


> I buy a bike that feels good as soon as I sit on it
> Then twiddle about a bit with saddle height, bars, etc until it feels perfect.


Then write it down so you remember , im a b&&&r for trying changes and having to put it back to what works


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## MichaelW2 (21 Jan 2017)

If you want to record your riding position, you should use [x,y] coordinates to eliminate angles. It is really hard to measure angles accurately and often the specs are wrong or don't apply to the size you have.
Use the bottom bracket as [0,0]. Mark x=0 on your top tube using some tape. Measure from this position to your saddle and bars. I use the saddle nose and the grip where the web of my hand rests.
Once you have the measurements you can transfer your position to another bike of roughly the correct size, or replicate your bike if it gets stolen or damaged.
You need to take crank length into consideration if you change ot use different sizes on different bikes.


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## HLaB (21 Jan 2017)

Slick said:


> I thought maybe I had overshot when I said 20mm, but didn't think 2mm would be even noticeable.


I don't know if 2mm would be noticed but it surprising what a few mm can do. FWIW I like to work in 5mm increments.

On saddle height the last two fits I have had have put the saddle down a fraction. Apparently a lot of traditional fits have cyclist too high so they are over extending the back of their knee and lowering it a smidge avoids that and injury. Its working for me anyway touch wood


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## cyberknight (21 Jan 2017)

HLaB said:


> I don't know if 2mm would be noticed but it surprising what a few mm can do. FWIW I like to work in 5mm increments.
> 
> On saddle height the last two fits I have had have put the saddle down a fraction. Apparently a lot of traditional fits have cyclist too high so they are over extending the back of their knee and lowering it a smidge avoids that and injury. Its working for me anyway touch wood


I know if i put my saddle up 2 mm i can feel a bit of pressure on the nads, could be im at the upper limit of the right height as you say .


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## Slick (21 Jan 2017)

cyberknight said:


> This is worth a read .
> http://bikeretrogrouch.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/changing-positions.html


Really good read. The second fitter on the new bike is certainly a big advocate of the modern racing position, probably because he was a racer himself back in the day. Still no news on the new bike, so still all a bit academic until I have it in front of me.


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## HLaB (21 Jan 2017)

cyberknight said:


> I know if i put my saddle up 2 mm i can feel a bit of pressure on the nads, could be im at the upper limit of the right height as you say .


Yeah I think I was before (about 9 years ago) but it was my calves. I was running a bike with 175mm cranks and one with 172.5mm and the smaller cranks felt more comfortable on the calves. IIRC I moved the saddle down 2.5mm and forward 2.5mm on the 175mm cranked bike and it felt comfortable. It was a tiny change and seemed to make a massive difference


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## Slick (21 Jan 2017)

HLaB said:


> I don't know if 2mm would be noticed but it surprising what a few mm can do. FWIW I like to work in 5mm increments.
> 
> On saddle height the last two fits I have had have put the saddle down a fraction. Apparently a lot of traditional fits have cyclist too high so they are over extending the back of their knee and lowering it a smidge avoids that and injury. Its working for me anyway touch wood


I probably moved the saddle up around 60mm in one go, so I wasn't expecting 2mm to make a huge difference.


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## Slick (21 Jan 2017)

cyberknight said:


> I know if i put my saddle up 2 mm i can feel a bit of pressure on the nads, could be im at the upper limit of the right height as you say .


To be honest, I really felt it on the perineum. I suppose reason enough to start lowering it.


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## Slick (21 Jan 2017)

HLaB said:


> Yeah I think I was before (about 9 years ago) but it was my calves. I was running a bike with 175mm cranks and one with 172.5mm and the smaller cranks felt more comfortable on the calves. IIRC I moved the saddle down 2.5mm and forward 2.5mm on the 175mm cranked bike and it felt comfortable. It was a tiny change and seemed to make a massive difference


Funny you mentioned calves, I felt that they were spared with the higher position but my quads took a helluva beating.


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## fossyant (21 Jan 2017)

I swear by Bernard Hinault's book Race and Riding Technique. Set's all the parameters and you can do it yourself.

For me, on a new bike (AKA a track hire bike) sit on bike, crank to bottom, if your heal can just touch the pedal at the axel (bear foot) , then that's a good start. For me, I raise it 5mm.

For new bikes I measure BB axel to saddle rail then take in allowance for differing saddles, after measuring the sit points. Works for me. I have bikes that I can get the measurement from the last 25 years, so it's applied to road bikes and even MTB's with hydraulic seat posts.

All are still set up with Hinault's measurement recommendations.


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## fossyant (21 Jan 2017)

Key point is measure what you have and write it down. Do not ever adjust measurements more than a few mm at a time, even if your original measurement is wrong. It stops muscle and ligament damage. No 'big' changes in one go.


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## robjh (21 Jan 2017)

I've been told my hips rock when I'm on my road bike, which is a sign of a too-high saddle (and may be related to some back pain I've been having). Anyway, so I've measured my position using the various methods (straight leg, degree of knee bend, LeMond inseam x 0.883) and put the saddle down by a whole 2cm, and my initial feeling is that it hasn't made things _worse_.
But how (other than asking a friend) do you tell if your own hips are rocking when you ride? I never felt them doing that before, so I can't tell now if they've stopped.


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## Slick (21 Jan 2017)

robjh said:


> I've been told my hips rock when I'm on my road bike, which is a sign of a too-high saddle (and may be related to some back pain I've been having). Anyway, so I've measured my position using the various methods (straight leg, degree of knee bend, LeMond inseam x 0.883) and put the saddle down by a whole 2cm, and my initial feeling is that it hasn't made things _worse_.
> But how (other than asking a friend) do you tell if your own hips are rocking when you ride? I never felt them doing that before, so I can't tell now if they've stopped.


Probably can't without someone telling you, especially if you have been doing it for a long time, as it becomes the norm.


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## Slick (21 Jan 2017)

fossyant said:


> Key point is measure what you have and write it down. Do not ever adjust measurements more than a few mm at a time, even if your original measurement is wrong. It stops muscle and ligament damage. No 'big' changes in one go.


May explain the pain in the unmentionables and the thigh.


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## fossyant (21 Jan 2017)

Slick said:


> May explain the pain in the unmentionables and the thigh.



Yep.

Never, ever adjust anything by more than a couple of MM at a time - and leave it a few weeks, even if you are wildly out originally. Even minor mm adjustments can cause big problems.

Adjusting shoe cleats are a big issue. My knees feel it as soon as I turn a pedal...


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## Slick (21 Jan 2017)

fossyant said:


> Yep.
> 
> Never, ever adjust anything by more than a couple of MM at a time - and leave it a few weeks, even if you are wildly out originally. Even minor mm adjustments can cause big problems.
> 
> Adjusting shoe cleats are a big issue. My knees feel it as soon as I turn a pedal...


Yeah, I was just a bit keen to try out the new geometry of the new bike while I wait for it. I'll reduce the height back down before tomorrows ride.


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## fossyant (21 Jan 2017)

Slick said:


> Yeah, I was just a bit keen to try out the new geometry of the new bike while I wait for it. I'll reduce the height back down before tomorrows ride.



Don't get too keen !!!!


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## Slick (21 Jan 2017)

fossyant said:


> Don't get too keen !!!!


OK, lesson learned.


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## mjr (22 Jan 2017)

fossyant said:


> Never, ever adjust anything by more than a couple of MM at a time - and leave it a few weeks, even if you are wildly out originally.


Isn't riding the wrong setup for weeks a bit masochistic?


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## SkipdiverJohn (24 Dec 2017)

My early 1980's copy of "Richard's Bicycle Book" claims the optimum 6 o'clock pedal to saddle height to be 1.09 x the rider's inside leg measurement, based on some sort of scientific study.
Until recently, I had never heard of the Lemond height formula, but when I did the calculations for my leg measurements using both the Lemond and the Richard's methods, the results came out to within about a tenth of an inch of each other. I used to find the actual most comfortable setting back in the day was the Richard's calculated figure minus maybe a quarter to half an inch. That meant unless I had a convenient kerb on one side though, I would have to get off the saddle whenever stopped in order to touch the ground firmly. I suspect a lot of commuters tend to set theirs a bit low because they don't want to risk toppling sideways when putting a foot down in traffic.


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## SkipdiverJohn (24 Dec 2017)

[QUOTE 5090700, member: 9609"]where on the saddle to you measure too?)[/QUOTE]

I take it as a straight line from the pedal spindle, through the centre of the BB, up the seat tube axis, and measure to the top face of the saddle in line with the seat post. I've always tended to have my saddle pretty central as regards for-aft location on the rails, so I'm measuring to roughly the midpoint on the saddle.
I wouldn't call your ratio low - 1.06 is not that much different to 1.09 is it?. I've just measured a bike with the saddle set for my own personal optimum comfort and the ratio comes out at 1.07.


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## Levo-Lon (25 Dec 2017)

I have all my bikes set at about 880mm from the pedal axles when there inline with the seat tube, to the seat centre.
As a rough guide that's about the same as my heal on the pedal with a straight leg.
Then when i clip in it feels right.

If i go lower i get thigh pump, higher i start to get calf and groin pain.


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## 12boy (27 Dec 2017)

I start with around 35 1/2 " from saddle top to pedal spindle. Generally go with my heel comfortably on the pedal at max downstroke. If riding on gravel, ice or snow I drop an 1/8". I set my saddle so it is about level, and I have noticed that raising the nose even a 1/4" will change how much weight is on my hands. Handlebars as high or higher than the saddle will also throw more pressure on the sitbones but reduce pressure on your palms. Switching to a handshake position (bullhorns or drop bars) from palms down (flat bars) or moving the hands further back with a shorter stem is also going to put Las stress on the hands and wrists. I definitely second the idea with small changes in seat height and fore and aft position with a little ridingmin between to give it a chance.


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## GuyBoden (27 Dec 2017)

For what it's worth, once I got a comfy setup (in the1980's), I've used a Triangulation method to setup my bikes. 
(I wrote these dimensions down in a notebook, these change slightly with age, mainly to a higher handle bar position.)

Centre of BB to Back of saddle.
Back of Saddle to the top of Break levers. (or where you mostly put your hands)
top of Break levers to BB.


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## Milzy (27 Dec 2017)

I had a small crit bike build. Got pins and needles. Went up to a bigger frame and been fine. It’s ok listening to what bike fit say or people on c.c but if you get comfortable you’ll be faster and more efficient.


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## SuperHans123 (29 Dec 2017)

Bike fitting?
Jesus wept.


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## SkipdiverJohn (30 Dec 2017)

snertos999 said:


> Bike fitting?
> Jesus wept.



My attitude exactly. Another silly fad where you pay someone hard earned cash for telling you something you are perfectly capable of finding out for yourself by trial and error. It's also rather telling that frequently riders don't even like the results they get from a "bike fit" and either end up changing their adjustments afterwards or even sometimes go out and buy a completely different bike because they still can't get on with it!. Cycling Snake oil.


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## Heltor Chasca (30 Dec 2017)

Best thing I have done to dial in ‘MY’ fit is to read Simon Doughty’s book “The Long Distance Cyclist” and use my bike trainer as the basis to a jig. Surely static jigs are inaccurate because when you power up your legs and upper body as you ride, all those forces are going to affect weight distribution, saddle height, angle etc etc.

For my purposes I want to be comfortable, efficient and to vaguely decrease my aero profile. And given that the riding I like is Audax, some of the above will wax and wane from occasion. I’m no expert but bike fit seems very subjective.


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## SuperHans123 (30 Dec 2017)

I fiddle with bars, seat height (Seat not bloody saddle; I am riding a bike not a horse!) until it feels right.
In a few weeks, I may fiddle a little bit again.
Takes seconds to do.
Paying someone to fit me on a bike when I could spend that money on an upgrade seems like a big waste of time and money.
Snake oil indeed.


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## youngoldbloke (30 Dec 2017)

snertos999 said:


> I fiddle with bars, seat height (*Seat not bloody saddle; I am riding a bike not a horse!*) until it feels right.


Common usage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_saddle


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## SuperHans123 (30 Dec 2017)

youngoldbloke said:


> Common usage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_saddle


You can common usage me all you like.
Bike seat.
Saddle=horse.
From Wiki:- 'often called a seat'

My garden shed is not an unsaddling enclosure.


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## Alan O (30 Dec 2017)

snertos999 said:


> I fiddle with bars, seat height (Seat not bloody saddle; I am riding a bike not a horse!) until it feels right.
> In a few weeks, I may fiddle a little bit again.
> Takes seconds to do.
> Paying someone to fit me on a bike when I could spend that money on an upgrade seems like a big waste of time and money.
> Snake oil indeed.


I feel pretty much the same way myself - when I came back to cycling in 2016 after a long absence, I was surprised to learn that there was such a thing as a bike fit, and a younger me would have shaken my head in incredulity.

But having said that, I tend to forget that I started riding 'proper' bikes when I was 11 (I'm 59 now), and knowing how to set one up to feel right is instinctive. And I've recently come across people new to cycling who have absolutely no idea whatsoever. I recently lent a bike to someone who's about six inches taller than me and with longer legs, and it came back with the saddle seat about 2 inches lower and he couldn't understand why I had it set so obviously too high.


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## SuperHans123 (30 Dec 2017)

Alan O said:


> I feel pretty much the same way myself - when I came back to cycling in 2016 after a long absence, I was surprised to learn that there was such a thing as a bike fit, and a younger me would have shaken my head in incredulity.
> 
> But having said that, I tend to forget that I started riding 'proper' bikes when I was 11 (I'm 59 now), and knowing how to set one up to feel right is instinctive. And I've recently come across people new to cycling who have absolutely no idea whatsoever. I recently lent a bike to someone who's about six inches taller than me and with longer legs, and it came back with the saddle seat about 2 inches lower and he couldn't understand why I had it set so obviously too high.



What with everyone just staring at rectangles all day, I am not surprised at the lack of basic knowledge when it comes to bike comfort.
I think we will devolve to the point where babies coming out of the womb will be staring at their hand wondering why there isn't a phone in it.


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## Alan O (30 Dec 2017)

snertos999 said:


> What with everyone just staring at rectangles all day, I am not surprised at the lack of basic knowledge when it comes to bike comfort.
> I think we will devolve to the point where babies coming out of the womb will be staring at their hand wondering why there isn't a phone in it.


Or we'll turn into Teletubbies.


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## Milkfloat (30 Dec 2017)

I think that those who knock bike fits have either not had a fit, or not had a good fit. Despite cycling for years, after a back injury I could not tweak my fit myself to be able to cycle pain free. I went to a recommended ‘snake oil salesman’ who got me comfortable and thus riding again. For a triathlete friend of mine he ‘found’ considerably more power with some fairly minor tweaks.


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## SkipdiverJohn (30 Dec 2017)

snertos999 said:


> What with everyone just staring at rectangles all day, I am not surprised at the lack of basic knowledge when it comes to bike comfort..



i think we can extend that to other things like basic maintenance, and general practical skills. I'm amazed at how many younger people are incapable of fixing a fault on a bike, changing a wheel on a car, doing simple household plumbing or electrics, or any number of everyday repair activities that most people my age take for granted.


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## youngoldbloke (30 Dec 2017)

I blame Lego.


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## vickster (30 Dec 2017)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> i think we can extend that to other things like basic maintenance, and general practical skills. I'm amazed at how many younger people are incapable of fixing a fault on a bike, changing a wheel on a car, doing simple household plumbing or electrics, or any number of everyday repair activities that most people my age take for granted.


I go out to work so I don't have to fix things, paint things etc. I can pay people who will dona better job than me having been trained to do so. I'd rather spend my non working time doing this I actually enjoy, i.e. None of the things you mention. I'm not especially young

If you enjoy/get satisfaction from such tasks, crack on. Even better if it's your job and you get paid to do them

On the bike fit question, I have had two fairly recently from physios. Done after joint surgeries, to make sure the bike set up wasn't going to exacerbate injuries or hinder recovery


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## SuperHans123 (30 Dec 2017)

Milkfloat said:


> I think that those who knock bike fits have either not had a fit, or not had a good fit. Despite cycling for years, after a back injury I could not tweak my fit myself to be able to cycle pain free. I went to a recommended ‘snake oil salesman’ who got me comfortable and thus riding again. For a triathlete friend of mine he ‘found’ considerably more power with some fairly minor tweaks.


I've not had a bike fit as I have always managed to adjust stuff on the right sized bike to never entertain the idea.
Never even heard of it until a year or two ago.


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## Slick (30 Dec 2017)

vickster said:


> I go out to work so I don't have to fix things, paint things etc. I can pay people who will dona better job than me having been trained to do so. I'd rather spend my non working time doing this I actually enjoy, i.e. None of the things you mention. I'm not especially young
> 
> If you enjoy/get satisfaction from such tasks, crack on. Even better if it's your job and you get paid to do them
> 
> On the bike fit question, I have had two fairly recentky from physios. Done after joint surgeries, to make sure the bike set up wasn't going to exacerbate injuries or hinder recovery


I've always had the same opinion regarding fixing things. One of the few things I ever excelled at in life was doing my own job. I used to try and either fix or maintain things when I was younger and cash was tight, but I soon realised there was more money to be earned than lost by paying a professional to do it better than I could anyway. As for the fit, do it don't do it, just don't moan about the choices of others.


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## bpsmith (30 Dec 2017)

I do enjoy some of the posts on here, where people get ridiculed by not knowing how to do manual stuff. I also enjoy the posts about people condemning anything overly technological or electronic. Strangely enough, those posts tend to go hand in hand, along with the assumption that anyone who can use a computer cannot do anything manual based.

I suspect that said posters would have no clue whatsoever, should they be asked to do something with modern technology. I wonder if they can see the irony in that.


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## screenman (30 Dec 2017)

snertos999 said:


> I fiddle with bars, seat height (Seat not bloody saddle; I am riding a bike not a horse!) until it feels right.
> In a few weeks, I may fiddle a little bit again.
> Takes seconds to do.
> Paying someone to fit me on a bike when I could spend that money on an upgrade seems like a big waste of time and money.
> Snake oil indeed.



Some of us have all the kit we want it need already. Out of interest how long have you been cycling, for me it was 40 years before I paid a few bob to spend a couple of hours with one of the countries great cyclists, money well spent.


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## screenman (30 Dec 2017)

snertos999 said:


> I've not had a bike fit as I have always managed to adjust stuff on the right sized bike to never entertain the idea.
> Never even heard of it until a year or two ago.



Thinking back I used to have all my bikes made for me after spending an hour or so on a jig, this over 25 years ago. So nothing new in bike fits.


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## SuperHans123 (31 Dec 2017)

screenman said:


> Some of us have all the kit we want it need already. Out of interest how long have you been cycling, for me it was 40 years before I paid a few bob to spend a couple of hours with one of the countries great cyclists, money well spent.


Since I was a kid.
Tellingly here, I have never been remotely interested in road bikes, preferring to look around and stop when I want as opposed to staring at an inch of tyre with my back doubled over.
Perhaps this is why I have never been uncomfortable enough to even entertain the idea of a bike fit?


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## SuperHans123 (31 Dec 2017)

screenman said:


> Thinking back I used to have all my bikes made for me after spending an hour or so on a jig, this over 25 years ago. So nothing new in bike fits.


This is highly uncommon though.
The vast majority of people who own bikes buy them from shops and try them out for size there as opposed to having them bespoke made.
A bit like the 1% of men who have a fitted suit.
Source:-https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.cnbc.com...n-go-for-a-bespoke-suit-around-the-world.html
Not pointless, certainly but definitely niche.


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## Slick (31 Dec 2017)

The original question from almost a year ago was not about fit it was about the options available when choosing height between comfort and efficiency. If it was as simple as throwing your leg over a bike in a shop and finding the perfect bike for everyone, there would be no need for any adjustable features on bikes. Anyway, I now have a better understanding of how to set up a bike to suit me but it's mostly thanks to asking questions on here, which was the whole point of the thread.


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## SkipdiverJohn (31 Dec 2017)

snertos999 said:


> I have never been remotely interested in road bikes, preferring to look around and stop when I want as opposed to staring at an inch of tyre with my back doubled over.
> Perhaps this is why I have never been uncomfortable enough to even entertain the idea of a bike fit?



The stupidly low back-breaking riding position fashion on road bikes seems a fairly recent thing outside of racing. When I was a youngster back in the 1980's I had a drop-bar bike (albeit a steel one, and fairly heavy at that) and I never experienced any significant discomfort. Why would this be? The reason, I suspect, is that I set the bars at a sensible height; i.e. only marginally lower than the saddle, rather than the current practice of setting them as low as the headset will physically allow. It doesn't surprise me in the slightest that a lot of cyclists who ride around hunched over the bars as low as they can get with their spines forced into an unnaturally curved position for extended periods, experience all sorts of cycling-related discomfort.


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## davidphilips (31 Dec 2017)

Is it that stupidly low back-breaking riding position fashion on road bikes seems a fairly recent thing that changes the cycling style, or is it that cyclists with drop bars from a few years ago cycled on the drops most of the time and on more up to date bikes are used on the hoods but some what near the same set up? 
Only reason i ask is i have a few old and modern bikes and on the older bikes it seems more natural to be on the drops, no bar tape on the bar tops or rubber on the hoods? Whereas on a more modern bike i tend to cycle on the hoods most of the time?


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## Heltor Chasca (31 Dec 2017)

Reading Simon Doughty’s book ‘The Long Distance Cyclists’ Handbook’ and playing around on my bike trainer are the two most influential resources I have used to get my saddle position into the correct position. Among other things important to the ride comfort.

I mentioned this upthread, but just wanted to say it again to clarify why: In 2014 I bought a touring bike which I wanted to fit like a glove and as such went to a retailer in Bath that offered a ‘free’ bike fit as part of the deal and was plonked on a jig in their show room. Put it this way: I was very lucky that I even ended up with the correct bike size. Almost everything else was wrong. Saddle, stem, bars, lever position etc etc. But when you believe you are being dealt with by a pro, you believe it. It took 3 weeks for the gloss of a posh bike shop with a fitting service to wear off and for me to realise what a pigs ear they had made of the fit. I have changed almost everything on the bike to get it to fit. I have never been back to give them any further business.

That was my first ever bike fit and a hugely disappointing experience which has tainted my view of fittings. I guess I am still annoyed, but not to the point where I wouldn’t consider a decent fit. It isn’t a closed chapter and I’m not a cut and dried anti fit person.


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## Slick (31 Dec 2017)

davidphilips said:


> Is it that stupidly low back-breaking riding position fashion on road bikes seems a fairly recent thing that changes the cycling style, or is it that cyclists with drop bars from a few years ago cycled on the drops most of the time and on more up to date bikes are used on the hoods but some what near the same set up?
> Only reason i ask is i have a few old and modern bikes and on the older bikes it seems more natural to be on the drops, no bar tape on the bar tops or rubber on the hoods? Whereas on a more modern bike i tend to cycle on the hoods most of the time?


I'm not sure if that's correct. For what it's worth, I feel it's more to do with exact fit, as I have two modern road bikes one slightly more stretched than the other so one I only go on the drops when I'm up to speed and settling in to a rhythm. The other bike feels a bit squashed, so much so at very low speed I can catch my foot when turning full lock but it is very comfortable on the drops whatever the circumstances.


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## Slick (31 Dec 2017)

Heltor Chasca said:


> Reading Simon Doughty’s book ‘The Long Distance Cyclists’ Handbook’ and playing around on my bike trainer are the two most influential resources I have used to get my saddle position into the correct position. Among other things important to the ride comfort.
> 
> I mentioned this upthread, but just wanted to say it again to clarify why: In 2014 I bought a touring bike which I wanted to fit like a glove and as such went to a retailer in Bath that offered a ‘free’ bike fit as part of the deal and was plonked on a jig in their show room. Put it this way: I was very lucky that I even ended up with the correct bike size. Almost everything else was wrong. Saddle, stem, bars, levers etc etc. But when you believe to are being dealt with by a pro, you believe it. It took 3 weeks for the gloss of a posh bike shop with a fitting service to wear off and for me to realise what a pigs ear they had made of the fit. I have changed almost everything on the bike to get it to fit. I have never been back to give them any further business.
> 
> That was my first ever bike fit and a hugely disappointing experience which has tainted my view of fittings. I guess I am still annoyed, but not to the point where I wouldn’t consider a decent fit. It isn’t a closed chapter and I’m not a cut and dried anti fit person.


Good and bad in every walk of life but keeping an open mind like you obviously have is the secret to success in most walks of life I find.


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## vickster (31 Dec 2017)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> The stupidly low back-breaking riding position fashion on road bikes seems a fairly recent thing outside of racing. When I was* a youngster back in the 1980's* I had a drop-bar bike (albeit a steel one, and fairly heavy at that) and I never experienced any significant discomfort. Why would this be? The reason, I suspect, is that I set the bars at a sensible height; i.e. only marginally lower than the saddle, rather than the current practice of setting them as low as the headset will physically allow. It doesn't surprise me in the slightest that a lot of cyclists who ride around hunched over the bars as low as they can get with their spines forced into an unnaturally curved position for extended periods, experience all sorts of cycling-related discomfort.


I thought you were in your 70s or older from the way you talk!!


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## SkipdiverJohn (31 Dec 2017)

davidphilips said:


> r is it that cyclists with drop bars from a few years ago cycled on the drops most of the time and on more up to date bikes are used on the hoods but some what near the same set up?



My drop bars had tape all the way up and the Weinmann brakes had extension levers so you could brake from the top of the bars with no need to change hand position. I used to ride on the bar tops for at least 90% of my total mileage. The only time I used the drops was if I was riding into a headwind and wanted to reduce my frontal area. All other times I sat up and took in the view. I just think many cyclists today have become really obsessed about going fast to the exclusion of everything else.
The way I look at it is I typically walk at between 3.5 and 4 mph. If I can do a journey on a bike at 15 mph, it's still 4 times faster than walking. i just don't see the benefit in breaking my back just to achieve an extra 3 or 4 mph.


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## vickster (31 Dec 2017)

15mph is fast for pootle cycling


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## bpsmith (31 Dec 2017)

A lot of people complain about bike fits not feeling right instantly. The thing is, any change of the bike will feel different to most people and will take time for your body to adjust. If the fit was way out to start with, and you’re asking a fitter to set your bike how it should be for your chosen ride style, then it’s only natural for it to feel alien for a while.

I completely agree that there are bad fitters out there, although I wonder whether some people would have a different opinion if they stuck with it for long enough for the adjustment phase to pass?

My guess is that some of the poorer experiences may be where there was a bigger change in how the bike is fitted. I also wonder whether many of the unhappy people go back to the fitter and discuss the fit further?


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## Heltor Chasca (31 Dec 2017)

davidphilips said:


> Is it that stupidly low back-breaking riding position fashion on road bikes seems a fairly recent thing that changes the cycling style, or is it that cyclists with drop bars from a few years ago cycled on the drops most of the time and on more up to date bikes are used on the hoods but some what near the same set up?
> Only reason i ask is i have a few old and modern bikes and on the older bikes it seems more natural to be on the drops, no bar tape on the bar tops or rubber on the hoods? Whereas on a more modern bike i tend to cycle on the hoods most of the time?



This is interesting. For the last 6 weeks I have been using a training app called TrainerRoad which was recommended to me on here. In summary it puts you on a programme of ‘tailored’ sessions and intervals. It is brilliant. And while you are doing your session, coaching prompts appear on screen. These get you to hone your breathing, pelvis position, power techniques etc. But one thing it does bang on about is improving your aero position. It encourages you to get yourself used to riding more on the drops and taking advantage of a smaller aero profile and the free efficiency. It makes sense to me and I am beginning to ride more on the drops which on my Audax bike is quite comfortable maybe due to the compact bars or the fact I have a strong upper body. 

But on the rides I do, virtually everybody is on the hoods. The last Audax I did, another rider actually passed comment on me being in the drops. Am I missing something or is it just fashion? Surely an American training programme wouldn’t offer vastly different advice on technique just on what’s trending at a point in time.


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## SuperHans123 (31 Dec 2017)

All the bike fit people on this thread refer to drop bar bikes.
Maybe that is the issue, that these bikes just don't naturally 'fit' people because of the unnatural handlebar shape?
Just a thought from a hybrid riding snert!


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## Slick (31 Dec 2017)

snertos999 said:


> All the bike fit people on this thread refer to drop bar bikes.
> Maybe that is the issue, that these bikes just don't naturally 'fit' people because of the unnatural handlebar shape?
> Just a thought from a hybrid riding snert!


I suppose it depends on how you determine unnatural. It feels natural to me.


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## SuperHans123 (31 Dec 2017)

But on the rides I do, virtually everybody is on the hoods. The last Audax I did, another rider actually passed comment on me being in the drops. Am I missing something or is it just fashion? Surely an American training programme wouldn’t offer vastly different advice on technique just on what’s trending at a point in time.

Perhaps people ride on the hoods because it is comfier?
And if they spend most of their time there, why not get a hybrid?


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## SuperHans123 (31 Dec 2017)

Slick said:


> I suppose it depends on how you determine unnatural. It feels natural to me.


What, bent over double?


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## bpsmith (31 Dec 2017)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> My drop bars had tape all the way up and the Weinmann brakes had extension levers so you could brake from the top of the bars with no need to change hand position. I used to ride on the bar tops for at least 90% of my total mileage. The only time I used the drops was if I was riding into a headwind and wanted to reduce my frontal area. All other times I sat up and took in the view. I just think many cyclists today have become really obsessed about going fast to the exclusion of everything else.
> The way I look at it is I typically walk at between 3.5 and 4 mph. If I can do a journey on a bike at 15 mph, it's still 4 times faster than walking. i just don't see the benefit in breaking my back just to achieve an extra 3 or 4 mph.


If your bike is set up for your riding style, then you won’t be “breaking your back”. You might have the bars very low, if you want to do shorter fast riding, but higher if you want to do longer more relaxing rides. You would also have the geometry of the bike chosen for the style required. You can’t expect max speed and max comfort. Perhaps you could have some of your multiple bikes set up in different ways to suit different rides maybe?


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## vickster (31 Dec 2017)

snertos999 said:


> But on the rides I do, virtually everybody is on the hoods. The last Audax I did, another rider actually passed comment on me being in the drops. Am I missing something or is it just fashion? Surely an American training programme wouldn’t offer vastly different advice on technique just on what’s trending at a point in time.
> 
> Perhaps people ride on the hoods because it is comfier?
> And if they spend most of their time there, why not get a hybrid?


Because we prefer roadbikes? They are more comfortable? Now with shoulder issues (after being knocked off a hybrid), wider handlebars make my shoulder hurt. Narrower raid bars, holding the hoods or tops don’t. Horses for courses


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## Heltor Chasca (31 Dec 2017)

snertos999 said:


> All the bike fit people on this thread refer to drop bar bikes.
> Maybe that is the issue, that these bikes just don't naturally 'fit' people because of the unnatural handlebar shape?
> Just a thought from a hybrid riding snert!



Possibly. And possibly why you see older or injured riders switching to flat bars and bar ends. In touring circles it’s only the Brits and Americans who seem to have drops. Everyone else has flat bars. That said, I prefer drops for the multitude of positions and because I NEED to look cool.

My tourer has flared Salsa Cowchippers which are supremely comfortable.


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## vickster (31 Dec 2017)

snertos999 said:


> What, bent over double?


You’re not though if on the hoods with a flipped stem or taller head tube


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## vickster (31 Dec 2017)

Heltor Chasca said:


> Possibly. And possibly why you see older or injured riders switching to flat bars and bar ends. In touring circles it’s only the Brits and Americans who seem to have drops. Everyone else has flat bars. That said, I prefer drops for the multitude of positions and because I NEED to look cool.
> 
> My tourer has flared Salsa Cowchippers which are supremely comfortable.


As I’ve got older and more crocked, I’ve gone from hybrids / flatbars to roadbikes as above


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## Slick (31 Dec 2017)

snertos999 said:


> What, bent over double?


As above, loads of options depending on all sorts of factors. Bent over double, I am not.


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## SkipdiverJohn (31 Dec 2017)

vickster said:


> 15mph is fast for pootle cycling



Not too much in the way of bad gradients where I ride. So long as I don't get held up at too many junctions I reckon about 14-15 mph is achievable. I used to regularly do a 11 mile door to door trip to a relative in about 45 minutes on my 3 speed. The last few hundred yards are up a killer gradient though and I'd sometimes get off and walk as my legs would be killing me by then.


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## bpsmith (31 Dec 2017)

I ride a lot on the hoods, but have the bars set fairly low down so I can get a comfortable but very efficient position. I then use the drops when I really want to go for it. To me, that equates to a very flexible setup.


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## bpsmith (31 Dec 2017)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Not too much in the way of bad gradients where I ride. So long as I don't get held up at too many junctions I reckon about 14-15 mph is achievable. I used to regularly do a 11 mile door to door trip to a relative in about 45 minutes on my 3 speed. The last few hundred yards are up a killer gradient though and I'd sometimes get off and walk as my legs would be killing me by then.


You need a 7kg road bike instead of that 16kg MTB. 

(That’s tongue in cheek btw.)


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## Slick (31 Dec 2017)

bpsmith said:


> I ride a lot on the hoods, but have the bars set fairly low down so I can get a comfortable but very efficient position. I then use the drops when I really want to go for it. To me, that equates to a very flexible setup.


I have 2 bikes slightly different set up as you described earlier. I love the option.


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## bpsmith (31 Dec 2017)

Slick said:


> I have 2 bikes slightly different set up as you described earlier. I love the option.


My second bike is a slightly bigger and more relaxed frame, which I like to use for the climbs. Works well, as you say.


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## Heltor Chasca (31 Dec 2017)

Slick said:


> I have 2 bikes slightly different set up as you described earlier. I love the option.



Exactly this ^ OPTIONS. Each bike of mine needs to be comfortable but it would be silly just to have a fleet of clones. I like the variety and the difference in purpose and performance.

On my bikes, 50% have drops. 50% have flat bars. Horses, courses.


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## youngoldbloke (31 Dec 2017)

What is all this BS about always riding on the drops in the olden days? Brake levers had rubber hoods in the 60s. I had Mafac Racers with hood covers. We rode on the tops and the hoods, much as today. On the drops when going hard. Try an image search for say: 'Anquetil Tour de France 1960s' - you'll see what I mean. The fashion was for bigger frames and less seat post showing. But the bikes I have today are set up with a similar drop saddle to bars. I'm over 70 and prefer drop bars for the variety of hand positions they offer, riding on the hoods or tops for probably 90% of the time. If you were on the drops all the time in the old days may I suggest you didn't know what you were doing, much as would be the case today?






Anquetil in the 1966 Giro d'Italia


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## SuperHans123 (31 Dec 2017)

I find with my one and only bike, a Ridgeback, that the addition of Ergo grips with decent bar ends adds to the number of hand positions available.
Each their own.
I tend to just mooch about the Swansea and Gower coastline at around 13mph taking in the view.


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## SuperHans123 (31 Dec 2017)




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## vickster (31 Dec 2017)

??


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## Ajax Bay (31 Dec 2017)

snertos999 said:


> I have never been remotely interested in road bikes,


Perhaps that explains why you don't see the point of a fit. I suspect the percentage of riders paying for a bike fit for flat bars is miniscule - maybe a few competitive MTB riders.


SkipdiverJohn said:


> My drop bars had tape all the way up and the Weinmann brakes had extension levers so you could brake from the top of the bars with no need to change hand position.


Who taped these bars 'all the way up'? Did they not realise that's not how it was done?
Were these extension levers the type more commonly known as 'suicide' levers? No possibility of changing hand position when the rider tragically realised the brakes were not going to stop him/her in time.


SkipdiverJohn said:


> I typically walk at between 3.5 and 4 mph


That's quite fast. Why do you walk that fast? Wouldn't it be easier to run? Do you have friends that walk that fast too?


snertos999 said:


> Perhaps people ride on the hoods because it is comfier?
> And if they spend most of their time there, why not get a hybrid?


Riders with drop bars have more bar position options than those with a flat bar. Those with drop bars (I assert) will spend the majority of time on hoods (with two options: thumb/first finger web or palm of the hand on top) but the option to drop to the 'drops' is there for a. a more efficient aero position when there's a significant apparent head wind b. down hil: a lower centre of gravity and stronger arm position and hand position for braking c. a change from being on the drops. Options on the top of the bars and the bend of the bars (knuckles up or knuckles down) also exist. A flatbar offers fewer options and that's a reason to choose drop bars over flat bars. I suspect most riders owning a bicycle with drop bars also own and ride a bike with flat bars so it's not an 'either/or' choice.


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## screenman (31 Dec 2017)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> The stupidly low back-breaking riding position fashion on road bikes seems a fairly recent thing outside of racing. When I was a youngster back in the 1980's I had a drop-bar bike (albeit a steel one, and fairly heavy at that) and I never experienced any significant discomfort. Why would this be? The reason, I suspect, is that I set the bars at a sensible height; i.e. only marginally lower than the saddle, rather than the current practice of setting them as low as the headset will physically allow. It doesn't surprise me in the slightest that a lot of cyclists who ride around hunched over the bars as low as they can get with their spines forced into an unnaturally curved position for extended periods, experience all sorts of cycling-related discomfort.



It might break your back, but I am comfortable on my modern road bikes. I was 24 in 1980, so not a spring chicken.


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## SkipdiverJohn (31 Dec 2017)

bpsmith said:


> You need a 7kg road bike instead of that 16kg MTB.
> 
> (That’s tongue in cheek btw.)



No, I need to get my general fitness level back up to how it was a few years ago - and lose a few pounds of body fat! 
Actually, I'm really looking forward to doing my ex-regular 11 mile each way trip on my "new" 14kg lightweight Pioneer next time, and if I can still do it in about 45 minutes - bearing in mind I'm older and heavier than I was, I shall be a very happy bunny. It may not be a fancy 7kg carbon bike, but it's noticeably lighter than my 3 speed. You actually needed to be fairly fit to make decent progress on an all-steel roadster with wide-ratio SA hub gears. Either your legs would be a blur whirring away in 2nd or you whacked it up into 3rd and then you really had to push hard against the top gear ratio. The much bigger ratio choice on the Pioneer will help me maintain a more comfortable cadence.


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## bpsmith (31 Dec 2017)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> No, I need to get my general fitness level back up to how it was a few years ago - and lose a few pounds of body fat!
> Actually, I'm really looking forward to doing my ex-regular 11 mile each way trip on my "new" 14kg lightweight Pioneer next time, and if I can still do it in about 45 minutes - bearing in mind I'm older and heavier than I was, I shall be a very happy bunny. It may not be a fancy 7kg carbon bike, but it's noticeably lighter than my 3 speed. You actually needed to be fairly fit to make decent progress on an all-steel roadster with wide-ratio SA hub gears. Either your legs would be a blur whirring away in 2nd or you whacked it up into 3rd and then you really had to push hard against the top gear ratio. The much bigger ratio choice on the Pioneer will help me maintain a more comfortable cadence.


Was messing with you, that’s all.

I think we’re all thinking the same thing after a busy festive period. I know that I can definitely benefit from shifting a few pounds in the new year too.

2018 regime starts tomorrow. Actually thinking of not drinking tonight, which will be a NYE first for me.


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## SuperHans123 (31 Dec 2017)

Ajax Bay said:


> Perhaps that explains why you don't see the point of a fit. I suspect the percentage of riders paying for a bike fit for flat bars is miniscule - maybe a few competitive MTB riders.
> 
> 
> That's quite fast. Why do you walk that fast? Wouldn't it be easier to run? Do you have friends that walk that fast too?
> ...



I have plenty of available hand positions with my Ergo grips.
I am not interested in all those things you mention.
I just enjoy being out and about, mainly on cycle tracks and if i want to go a bit quicker now and then I pedal a bit faster.

I also walk my dog at the speeds mentioned earlier.
No inclination to run.
Said dog in question.


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## SkipdiverJohn (31 Dec 2017)

bpsmith said:


> Was messing with you, that’s all.



I know you were, no offence taken.


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## Slick (31 Dec 2017)

[QUOTE="bpsmith, post: 5098238, member: Actually thinking of not drinking tonight, which will be a NYE first for me.[/QUOTE]

Heresy, they still shoot you up here for even thinking that.


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## SkipdiverJohn (31 Dec 2017)

Ajax Bay said:


> Who taped these bars 'all the way up'? Did they not realise that's not how it was done?Were these extension levers the type more commonly known as 'suicide' levers? No possibility of changing hand position when the rider tragically realised the brakes were not going to stop him/her in time.



Yep, they were the "suicide" levers fitted and the bar tapes were done at the Factory by Raleigh. Never had a problem with the lever travel as I used to be really fussy about maintaining my wheel trueness and I had the brake blocks adjusted to very minimal clearances. The only scary moments I ever had were going downhill in the wet and that was down to the fact the wheel rims were steel not alloy, nothing to do with the brake lever arrangements.



> That's quite fast. Why do you walk that fast? Wouldn't it be easier to run? Do you have friends that walk that fast too?



I've got quite long legs and if I'm walking on my own and I'm on a mission to be somewhere, I don't hang around. Walking with someone else whilst having a chat is another thing entirely - no more than 3 mph I'd estimate. I can't think of anything more boring than running, plus it's hard on your joints. I avoid it like the plague.


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## Alan O (31 Dec 2017)

davidphilips said:


> Is it that stupidly low back-breaking riding position fashion on road bikes seems a fairly recent thing that changes the cycling style, or is it that cyclists with drop bars from a few years ago cycled on the drops most of the time and on more up to date bikes are used on the hoods but some what near the same set up?
> Only reason i ask is i have a few old and modern bikes and on the older bikes it seems more natural to be on the drops, no bar tape on the bar tops or rubber on the hoods? Whereas on a more modern bike i tend to cycle on the hoods most of the time?


For people actually racing, yes, I think that is the case - in fact, I recently saw somewhere a comparison of handlebar positioning and grip positioning between pro riders of the past and of today, and it showed exactly what you suggest.

But for those of us who don't race, aren't after top speed at the expense of all else, and aren't seduced into doing stuff just because it's the way the pros do it, it never was relevant and still isn't today.

My bars are positioned with the tops at about saddle height, which gives me the best range of comfy positions I can get - about 80-90% on the tops or hoods, and the rest on the drops.


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## youngoldbloke (31 Dec 2017)

It is simply not the case that 'cyclists with drop bars from a few years ago cycled on the drops most of the time' - even the pros!


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## screenman (31 Dec 2017)

Alan O said:


> For people actually racing, yes, I think that is the case - in fact, I recently saw somewhere a comparison of handlebar positioning and grip positioning between pro riders of the past and of today, and it showed exactly what you suggest.
> 
> But for those of us who don't race, aren't after top speed at the expense of all else, and aren't seduced into doing stuff just because it's the way the pros do it, it never was relevant and still isn't today.
> 
> My bars are positioned with the tops at about saddle height, which gives me the best range of comfy positions I can get - about 80-90% on the tops or hoods, and the rest on the drops.



If I have my bars that high I get back ache, whatever fits is my suggestion but please do not think I am imitating pro's just because my position is lower than the one you prefer.


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## Alan O (1 Jan 2018)

screenman said:


> If I have my bars that high I get back ache, whatever fits is my suggestion but please do not think I am imitating pro's just because my position is lower than the one you prefer.


Sure, whatever is comfortable for you is obviously what's right.


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## cyberknight (1 Jan 2018)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> The stupidly low back-breaking riding position fashion on road bikes seems a fairly recent thing outside of racing. When I was a youngster back in the 1980's I had a drop-bar bike (albeit a steel one, and fairly heavy at that) and I never experienced any significant discomfort. Why would this be? The reason, I suspect, is that I set the bars at a sensible height; i.e. only marginally lower than the saddle, rather than the current practice of setting them as low as the headset will physically allow. It doesn't surprise me in the slightest that a lot of cyclists who ride around hunched over the bars as low as they can get with their spines forced into an unnaturally curved position for extended periods, experience all sorts of cycling-related discomfort.


http://bikeretrogrouch.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/changing-positions.html


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## Blue Hills (1 Jan 2018)

vickster said:


> I thought you were in your 70s or older from the way you talk!!


don't understand why. Seemed a reasonable enough statement of skipdriver's.
May return later with my experience of bike fitting - short version - can be lived well without for anyone who already has bikes they feel comfortable on, has a modicum of common sense and can spend a minute or two here and there tweaking. Even shorter version - these days I'd no more pay anyone to bike fit me than I would pay anyone to tell me which shoes fit.


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## vickster (1 Jan 2018)

Blue Hills said:


> don't understand why. Seemed a reasonable enough statement of skipdriver's.
> May return later with my experience of bike fitting - short version - can be lived well without for anyone who already has bikes they feel comfortable on, has a modicum of common sense and can spend a minute or two here and there tweaking. Even shorter version - these days I'd no more pay anyone to bike fit me than I would pay anyone to tell me which shoes fit.


Based on his prior comments somewhere about 'young people' not being able to do basic electrics or some such. Most of my peer friends (mid to late 40s, teenagers in the 80s) would get professional tradespeople in to do electrics beyond changing a light bulb


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## Blue Hills (1 Jan 2018)

youngoldbloke said:


> What is all this BS about always riding on the drops in the olden days? Brake levers had rubber hoods in the 60s. I had Mafac Racers with hood covers. We rode on the tops and the hoods, much as today. On the drops when going hard. Try an image search for say: 'Anquetil Tour de France 1960s' - you'll see what I mean. The fashion was for bigger frames and less seat post showing. But the bikes I have today are set up with a similar drop saddle to bars. I'm over 70 and prefer drop bars for the variety of hand positions they offer, riding on the hoods or tops for probably 90% of the time. If you were on the drops all the time in the old days may I suggest you didn't know what you were doing, much as would be the case today?
> 
> View attachment 389294
> 
> Anquetil in the 1966 Giro d'Italia


Interesting post.

Riuding on the hoods for a fair bit of rides proves comfortable for many I would suggest because the wrist is not twisted.

But what I'd like to understand is how this is very much different from putting your hands on flat-bar bar-ends. Where I spend an awful lot of time on my extensive collection of flat-bar bikes.


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## mjr (1 Jan 2018)

vickster said:


> Based on his prior comments somewhere about 'young people' not being able to do basic electrics or some such. Most of my peer friends (mid to late 40s, teenagers in the 80s) would get professional tradespeople in to do electrics beyond changing a light bulb


Metropolitan elite?  Move to among crop fields and if you've basic electrical competence, you soon decide that doing minor wiring jobs yourself is preferable to fielding yet another bloody phone call from a pro saying they can't find your house!


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## mjr (1 Jan 2018)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> No, I need to get my general fitness level back up to how it was a few years ago - and lose a few pounds of body fat!
> Actually, I'm really looking forward to doing my ex-regular 11 mile each way trip on my "new" 14kg lightweight Pioneer next time, and if I can still do it in about 45 minutes - bearing in mind I'm older and heavier than I was, I shall be a very happy bunny. It may not be a fancy 7kg carbon bike, but it's noticeably lighter than my 3 speed. You actually needed to be fairly fit to make decent progress on an all-steel roadster with wide-ratio SA hub gears. Either your legs would be a blur whirring away in 2nd or you whacked it up into 3rd and then you really had to push hard against the top gear ratio. The much bigger ratio choice on the Pioneer will help me maintain a more comfortable cadence.


Only if you didn't have the mechanical skills to realise that was silly, replace the rear sprocket and lower the knee-popping near-100-inch top gear to something more sensible around 80"


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## mjr (1 Jan 2018)

vickster said:


> Because we prefer roadbikes? They are more comfortable? Now with shoulder issues (after being knocked off a hybrid), wider handlebars make my shoulder hurt. Narrower raid bars, holding the hoods or tops don’t. Horses for courses


I've seen far narrower flat bars than road ones, so I think that's not the only reason you went road.

I think my swept bar bikes are much more comfortable than either drops or flats, but each to their own!


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## mjr (1 Jan 2018)

snertos999 said:


> You can common usage me all you like.
> Bike seat.
> Saddle=horse.
> From Wiki:- 'often called a seat'
> ...


It ain't a seat unless you're recumbent. It's a saddle because you're astride the bike, so it needs to curve down sideways as well as slightly upwards along the bike - forming a saddle point!


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## Blue Hills (1 Jan 2018)

mjr said:


> I've seen far narrower flat bars than road ones, so I think that's not the only reason you went road.
> 
> !


Yep you can have a flat bar bike with any width of bars you want. In london there are some insanely narrow ones. Ridden by poseurs mostly who must be constantly fighting to keep the bike upright.


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## SuperHans123 (1 Jan 2018)

mjr said:


> It ain't a seat unless you're recumbent. It's a saddle because you're astride the bike, so it needs to curve down sideways as well as slightly upwards along the bike - forming a saddle point!



seat
siːt/
_noun_

*1*.
a thing made or *used for sitting on*
*saddle
ˈsad(ə)l/
noun

1.
a seat fastened on the back of a horse or other animal for riding, typically made of leather and raised at the front and rear.
*


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## FishFright (1 Jan 2018)

snertos999 said:


> seat
> siːt/
> _noun_
> 
> ...



Some impressive formatting there . 

It's a saddle, 99% of people call it a saddle, any diagram of a bike's part will call it a saddle, if you want to by one you look at saddles. 
But I get what you mean , I want to call brakes - breaks and tyres - rubber rounds so I insist that everyone else does the same based on .. some stuff I've not made up yet but by gad I will !!


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## Alan O (1 Jan 2018)

mjr said:


> I've seen far narrower flat bars than road ones, so I think that's not the only reason you went road.
> 
> I think my swept bar bikes are much more comfortable than either drops or flats, but each to their own!


My most comfortable bars are the old-style randonneur drop bars on my tourer - wider than average road bars and with a slight upsweep. My MTB bars (with bar ends) are wider and I like that for the extra leverage and control, but they're not the most comfortable over any long distance. It all depends on our individual bodies.


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## Slick (1 Jan 2018)

Blue Hills said:


> Yep you can have a flat bar bike with any width of bars you want. In london there are some insanely narrow ones. Ridden by poseurs mostly who must be constantly fighting to keep the bike upright.


I see one guy almost every morning on a fixie with what looks a very strange set up with unbelievable narrow bars, but he doesn't look like a poser or poseur to me. I'm not entirely sure what it is about his style I've come to admire, if it's the bike, the grip, the fact he tackles a route I just wouldn't dream of or just the fact he's there no matter the weather. I just feel there's a few too many people wanting to push their style on everyone without being able to acknowledge the fact there are loads of differing ways to enjoy this cycling malarkey and just because you wouldn't do what someone else does does not make them wrong.


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## mjr (1 Jan 2018)

snertos999 said:


> seat
> siːt/
> _noun_
> 
> ...


Which seems to be from those conservatives at Oxford, but I see why there's no link to the source, because even they put "1.1 A seat on a bicycle or motorcycle" at https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/saddle

Saddle = sad-dle = sit tool, basically. It's a bit different from a seat in that it's an active tool, but that's minor.


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## vickster (1 Jan 2018)

mjr said:


> Metropolitan elite?  Move to among crop fields and if you've basic electrical competence, you soon decide that doing minor wiring jobs yourself is preferable to fielding yet another bloody phone call from a pro saying they can't find your house!


Skipdiver John is in London

Who on earth wants to live in a field out of choice


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## SuperHans123 (1 Jan 2018)

mjr said:


> Which seems to be from those conservatives at Oxford, but I see why there's no link to the source, because even they put "1.1 A seat on a bicycle or motorcycle" at https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/saddle
> 
> Saddle = sad-dle = sit tool, basically. It's a bit different from a seat in that it's an active tool, but that's minor.


PWNED


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## boydj (2 Jan 2018)

vickster said:


> I go out to work so I don't have to fix things, paint things etc. I can pay people who will dona better job than me having been trained to do so. I'd rather spend my non working time doing this I actually enjoy, i.e. None of the things you mention. I'm not especially young
> 
> If you enjoy/get satisfaction from such tasks, crack on. Even better if it's your job and you get paid to do them
> 
> On the bike fit question, I have had two fairly recently from physios. Done after joint surgeries, to make sure the bike set up wasn't going to exacerbate injuries or hinder recovery



This is a gender issue - most males like to prove their manliness by fixing things - usually making things worse until they then have to call in the experts to undo the damage done by the attempted repair before fixing the initial problem and charging twice as much as the original repair would have cost.


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## Blue Hills (2 Jan 2018)

Not entirely boyd, it's actually also quite theraputic to fix stuff yourself, particularly if it involves a bike of course.


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## Blue Hills (2 Jan 2018)

And best not get started on "cockpit," which always makes me think of machine guns spat from a blazing sun.


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## Ian H (2 Jan 2018)

snertos999 said:


> PWNED


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_saddle


Blue Hills said:


> And best not get started on "cockpit," which always makes me think of machine guns spat from a blazing sun.


I suspect it was originally used ironically, but you know what happens.

I find it uncomfortable to ride much more than 100k on a flat-bar bike. Drops give so many options, both of hand-positions, and the associated changes of upper-body position.


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## Blue Hills (2 Jan 2018)

I have stubby bar ends on my brommie dogtousers. Do you have them?


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## Blue Hills (2 Jan 2018)

No I don't to be honest dogtrosers, but i used to often fantasise about rocket launchers mounted to the front mudguards of my 70s/80s styled vespa. 

On the bike i prefer the controlled apparently manically uncontrolled wobble.

i recommend the stubbie bar ends for even short brommie rides. They don't spoil the fold.


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## SuperHans123 (2 Jan 2018)

Plenty of hand positions possible with these.


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## youngoldbloke (2 Jan 2018)

snertos999 said:


> View attachment 389774
> plenty of hand positions possible with these.


No doubt, but how do you brake/change gear without moving your hands? If you prefer them that's great but I'll stick with dropped bars for now, thanks.


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## Ian H (2 Jan 2018)

It is a very big picture.


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## Slick (2 Jan 2018)

Ian H said:


> It is a very big picture.


It's a very big subject.......apparently.


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## SuperHans123 (2 Jan 2018)

youngoldbloke said:


> No doubt, but how do you brake/change gear without moving your hands? If you prefer them that's great but I'll stick with dropped bars for now, thanks.





Ian H said:


> It is a very big picture.


Jeese, didn't realise it was that big an image when I posted it! (Now edited)

If I am needing the brakes in a hurry, which is rare given how slow I am, I would keep my hands in the 'normal' position, for example when going down a hill.
I spend most of my riding time on cycle tracks, so there isn't usually a need for immediate braking.
Each their own and like you, I shall stick with flat bars for now, thanks.


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## mjr (2 Jan 2018)

youngoldbloke said:


> No doubt, but how do you brake/change gear without moving your hands? If you prefer them that's great but I'll stick with dropped bars for now, thanks.


Same as how you brake from the tops (without CX levers), ramps or ends on dropped bars! Step 1 is move hands to the levers...


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## Ajax Bay (3 Jan 2018)

mjr said:


> Same as how you brake from the tops (without CX levers), ramps or ends on dropped bars! Step 1 is move hands to the levers...


Which is why riders with drop bars ride on the hoods much of the time - it allows for immediate brake operation. Riding in a group the brakes should always be covered; downhill on the drops the brakes are within finger range without "moving the hands to levers"; IME most riders don't spend much time 'on the tops', unless their bike is ill-fitting. I treat the top of my bars as just an occasional hand position to allow variety and use slightly different muscles.
The flat bar end augmentation @snertos999 posted an image of (presumably he has not fitted these) looks very sophisticated and ideal if you want to ride relatively upright and move your hands to cover the brakes as soon as you anticipate the possibility that you'll need to brake.
Room for all kinds of bar in our cycling community: all with advantages and disadvantages which vary depending on the type of cycling one uses that bike (with its bars) for.


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## mjr (3 Jan 2018)

Ajax Bay said:


> Which is why riders with drop bars ride on the hoods much of the time - it allows for immediate brake operation. Riding in a group the brakes should always be covered; downhill on the drops the brakes are within finger range without "moving the hands to levers"; IME most riders don't spend much time 'on the tops', unless their bike is ill-fitting. I treat the top of my bars as just an occasional hand position to allow variety and use slightly different muscles.


So in practice, dropped bars don't give "give so many options," except for some occasional relief, and the one most riders use (the hoods) also leaves their hands in an unnatural position, just less extreme than the usual flat bar grips. 

Also, braking from the hoods is normally weaker than from the drops, so I suggest any group where hood braking suffices isn't riding ever so close and single hand braking would suffice in most cases, allowing one to alternate which hand was on the bar end.



> The flat bar end augmentation @snertos999 posted an image of (presumably he has not fitted these) looks very sophisticated and ideal if you want to ride relatively upright and move your hands to cover the brakes as soon as you anticipate the possibility that you'll need to brake.
> Room for all kinds of bar in our cycling community: all with advantages and disadvantages which vary depending on the type of cycling one uses that bike (with its bars) for.


I agree, but drop bar advocates really should agree among themselves if it's the variety of hand positions or covering of brakes that's important to them!


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## Alan O (3 Jan 2018)

mjr said:


> So in practice, dropped bars don't give "give so many options," except for some occasional relief, and the one most riders use (the hoods) also leaves their hands in an unnatural position, just less extreme than the usual flat bar grips.
> 
> Also, braking from the hoods is normally weaker than from the drops, so I suggest any group where hood braking suffices isn't riding ever so close and single hand braking would suffice in most cases, allowing one to alternate which hand was on the bar end.
> 
> I agree, but drop bar advocates really should agree among themselves if it's the variety of hand positions or covering of brakes that's important to them!


It's just struck me that (for me at least), drop bars offer the biggest range of hand positions - but not the best one. My single favourite hand position (on my bikes) is on the main grips of my MTB with brakes and gears in perfect digital reach.


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## SuperHans123 (3 Jan 2018)

Here is my current grip set. Giant ergo grips. Great price as well.
I have had various types of the Ergon branded grips previously, including the one I posted...great grips.


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## SuperHans123 (3 Jan 2018)

[/QUOTE] @snertos999 posted an image of (presumably he has not fitted these) looks very sophisticated and ideal if you want to ride relatively upright and move your hands to cover the brakes as soon as you anticipate the possibility that you'll need to brake.
Room for all kinds of bar in our cycling community: all with advantages and disadvantages which vary depending on the type of cycling one uses that bike (with its bars) for.[/QUOTE]


Lots of us like to ride upright as we prefer it and find it comfier and are not interested in 'riding on the hoods'
Look outside any supermarket, university or train station and the vast majority of bikes are some form of hybrid.
Believe it or not, 'we' are not the minority!


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## bpsmith (3 Jan 2018)

This talk about the “unnatural position” whilst on the hoods has me baffled.

The most natural position there is on a bike is with the hands straight out in front with palms vertical. It’s like standing with your arms to sides. Try doing that with palms perpendicular to your body and post back. Guaranteed that it uses more muscles that way.

Each to their own on what bar type you like. I know it’s road drop bars for me. No question.


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## boydj (3 Jan 2018)

Blue Hills said:


> Not entirely boyd, it's actually also quite theraputic to fix stuff yourself, particularly if it involves a bike of course.



I do know that - just being a bit tongue-in-cheek. I only draw the line at wheel-building personally, and I may well try that one day.


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## Alan O (3 Jan 2018)

Dogtrousers said:


> One of my favourite occasionally borrowed bikes is a flat barred hybrid. Unfortunately I only get to borrow it about once a year.


There are a lot of nice hybrids around these days, and it's one of the things I was seriously impressed by when I caught up on the way design trends had gone during my absence. I remember "sit up" style bikes as mainly being bedstead-tubed things that were just used for very short journeys by people who didn't regard cycling as a hobby/sport/whatever, and if you were in any way "serious" you got a drop-bar bike.

But today's hybrids, built on very nice frames and with top-quality components, are a world apart - and if I had the money to spare (and space to fit _another_ bike!) I could be seriously tempted. I do have a rigid MTB (which I picked up for £30) and I'll probably fix that up this summer, fit road tyres and luggage-carrying ability of some sort, and use it like a hybrid.


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## mjr (3 Jan 2018)

bpsmith said:


> This talk about the “unnatural position” whilst on the hoods has me baffled.
> 
> The most natural position there is on a bike is with the hands straight out in front with palms vertical. It’s like standing with your arms to sides.


It's more natural for one's thumbs to move together as you raise the arms, especially if your handlebars are narrower than your resting reach, like most people's dropped bars are. That is why many drop bar users twist their hoods slightly inwards, sometimes without realising, as they attempt to achieve the more comfortable position of North Roads.

Try standing as you say, then swinging your arms up so your hands are in front of you the same distance apart, then returning them back down. Now swing your arms up but bring your hands together to clap in front of you and return them - it's much easier because your hands naturally want to move closer in an arc as you raise them.

It's not as strained as palms facing down, but palms parallel is still unnatural.


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## Ajax Bay (3 Jan 2018)

If you're happy and you know it clap your hands.


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## bpsmith (3 Jan 2018)

mjr said:


> It's more natural for one's thumbs to move together as you raise the arms, especially if your handlebars are narrower than your resting reach, like most people's dropped bars are. That is why many drop bar users twist their hoods slightly inwards, sometimes without realising, as they attempt to achieve the more comfortable position of North Roads.
> 
> Try standing as you say, then swinging your arms up so your hands are in front of you the same distance apart, then returning them back down. Now swing your arms up but bring your hands together to clap in front of you and return them - it's much easier because your hands naturally want to move closer in an arc as you raise them.
> 
> It's not as strained as palms facing down, but palms parallel is still unnatural.


I follow what your saying, but still don’t find it unnatural. Might be just me?

Not arguing that you don’t find it unnatural though.


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## youngoldbloke (3 Jan 2018)

Oddly I find the hoods position more comfortable too. But haven't we decided it takes all sorts? Now what about opinions on flat v clipless pedals, and gel v 'razor blade' saddles?


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## screenman (3 Jan 2018)

I have 3 straight bar bikes and 3 with drops, drops for me if out for more than a couple of hours. I also have Ergo grips on the 29er in an effort to help alleviate some carpal tunnel problem, they do not seem to help as much as using the drops.

That is a lot of stem showing in that photo, is it above the safe limit?


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## Ian H (3 Jan 2018)

mjr said:


> So in practice, dropped bars don't give "give so many options," except for some occasional relief, and the one most riders use (the hoods) also leaves their hands in an unnatural position, just less extreme than the usual flat bar grips.
> 
> Also, braking from the hoods is normally weaker than from the drops, so I suggest any group where hood braking suffices isn't riding ever so close and single hand braking would suffice in most cases, allowing one to alternate which hand was on the bar end.
> 
> ...



Most people have more than enough braking power from the hoods. I find it the most natural, comfortable position. The need to cover brakes varies according to your situation. 
I also ride bikes with straight bars, and bar-ends, so I do have experience with various set-ups.


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## Ajax Bay (3 Jan 2018)

youngoldbloke said:


> Now what about opinions on flat v clipless pedals,


Flat pedals offer a variety of positions whereas clip-in pedals, well, clip you in one place.
A few riders who don't use clip-in pedals have knowledgeable and trenchant views about how suitable they are, necessarily based on limited experience.


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## mjr (3 Jan 2018)

Ian H said:


> Most people have more than enough braking power from the hoods. I find it the most natural, comfortable position. The need to cover brakes varies according to your situation.
> I also ride bikes with straight bars, and bar-ends, so I do have experience with various set-ups.


But no North Roads? I can see why you might consider the hoods the best of what you list.


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## screenman (3 Jan 2018)

mjr said:


> But no North Roads? I can see why you might consider the hoods the best of what you list.



I have had a go on a bike with those on, it did not suit my natural hand position. Even sitting here now and turning my hands to that position feels wrong, of course that could be more down to my odd muscle make up rather than the bars.

It may also be that my back problems do not allow me to ride as upright as the guy in your picture does.


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## SuperHans123 (3 Jan 2018)

screenman said:


> I have 3 straight bar bikes and 3 with drops, drops for me if out for more than a couple of hours. I also have Ergo grips on the 29er in an effort to help alleviate some carpal tunnel problem, they do not seem to help as much as using the drops.
> 
> That is a lot of stem showing in that photo, is it above the safe limit?


Bang on the limit.
Thanks for the concern!


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## screenman (3 Jan 2018)

snertos999 said:


> Bang on the limit.
> Thanks for the concern!



No problem, would a larger frame not make it more comfortable.


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## SuperHans123 (3 Jan 2018)

screenman said:


> No problem, would a larger frame not make it more comfortable.


This is the correct sized frame for me, it's just that I really like the bars as high up as they can be a la sit up and beg...hate leaning forward.


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## screenman (3 Jan 2018)

snertos999 said:


> This is the correct sized frame for me, it's just that I really like the bars as high up as they can be a la sit up and beg...hate leaning forward.



Do you not find all the road shock goes straight up your back, also I would imagine that would lower the power you can put through the pedals, not that that is important if speed is not your aim.


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## SuperHans123 (3 Jan 2018)

screenman said:


> Do you not find all the road shock goes straight up your back, also I would imagine that would lower the power you can put through the pedals, not that that is important if speed is not your aim.


As I have previously stated, I spend the majority of my time on cycle tracks unless I am going on a longer ride around the Gower coast but never really exceed around the mid thirties in terms of miles, apart from a couple over 50 here and there. I tend to average between 12 and 13.5mph.
The seafront track and Clyne valley is pretty smooth, so I can honestly say I feel pretty comfortable with my current setup and have found a saddle I get on with.


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## screenman (3 Jan 2018)

That looks a nice place to ride a bike, hopefully I will get over that way this year.


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## Ian H (3 Jan 2018)

mjr said:


> But no North Roads? I can see why you might consider the hoods the best of what you list.



North Roads are too narrow on the tops. Shallow randonneur-style drops with a long flat section to the hoods are my preference for comfort.
My old road-racing bike has deeper competition-style drops, but I seldom ride even 200k on that. It's fine for a winter time-trial.


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## bpsmith (3 Jan 2018)

screenman said:


> That looks a nice place to ride a bike, hopefully I will get over that way this year.


Not always that clear, of debris or people, eh @snertos999 ?

Still nice though!


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## SuperHans123 (4 Jan 2018)

bpsmith said:


> Not always that clear, of debris or people, eh @snertos999 ?
> 
> Still nice though!


Well its a shared path and its outside, what do you expect? Less debris than the roads,that's for sure. And I'll take this view over London any day of the week, that's for sure.
I tend to cycle dead early at the weekends or evenings to avoid other human beings.


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## bpsmith (4 Jan 2018)

snertos999 said:


> Well its a shared path and its outside, what do you expect? Less debris than the roads,that's for sure. And I'll take this view over London any day of the week, that's for sure.
> I tend to cycle dead early at the weekends or evenings to avoid other human beings.


I hear you. Just saying that it’s a far cry from the condition it’s left in over the Winter and then how bonkers it is over the Summer.

Looks bliss in the photo’s.


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## SuperHans123 (4 Jan 2018)

bpsmith said:


> I hear you. Just saying that it’s a far cry from the condition it’s left in over the Winter and then how bonkers it is over the Summer.
> 
> Looks bliss in the photo’s.


You're right about that.
In summer, if I am on it on a busy day, I just go on the roads from Mumbles onwards as the path can't cope with the numbers.


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## bpsmith (4 Jan 2018)

snertos999 said:


> You're right about that.
> In summer, if I am on it on a busy day, I just go on the roads from Mumbles onwards as the path can't cope with the numbers.


There’s so much adjoining land along that route. It’s a shame that the cash isn’t there for segregated tracks along the full length.


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## bpsmith (4 Jan 2018)

Dogtrousers said:


> Is that the path that goes from Mumbles pier into Swansea? I've ridden on that! A very nice path it was too.


The s cons photo is on that route from Swansea to Mumbles. The first photo is on a path that goes from midway on that route for about 3 to 4 miles and ends up the complete opposite side of Gower.


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## mjr (4 Jan 2018)

screenman said:


> It may also be that my back problems do not allow me to ride as upright as the guy in your picture does.


I don't see why back problems would stop that - the plusher tyres and slightly-lower sprung saddle means one's back (or backside!) doesn't receive many shocks even over quite rough ground where the bike is bouncing around (felt mainly through the hands). I guess it would be painful on thin high-pressure tyres and a hard saddle.

Actually, the pictured bike is using some unknown variety of Porters rather than North Roads because that's what came on it and I've never changed them because it wouldn't be much of a change.

The picture also shows me sat more upright than often because I'm halfway through an S bend in town - I think having the brakes at the most upright position makes more sense than having them on the hoods/drops because sitting up slows one down due to being less aero - and why would I have my hands over the brakes if I wasn't expecting to slow down? For pushing on in open country, those Dutch tri bars are useful


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## SuperHans123 (4 Jan 2018)

bpsmith said:


> There’s so much adjoining land along that route. It’s a shame that the cash isn’t there for segregated tracks along the full length.


Yes, plenty of room to widen it and the one in Clyne.


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