# The E-commuter



## mythste (3 Jul 2020)

Hello!

I have a 14 mile commute each way that I can comfortably do 3 times a week, sort of get away with 4 times a week, and kill myself on 5 times a week. And this is summer.

i would love to save the ~£200 a month travel card and invest instead in an e-bike for the days when I’m not feeling so fresh. I’m fit as I’ve ever been and I’m not yet 30 so this is more of a defiance against an unnecessary fossil fuel vehicle than a “physical” decision.

ive looked at the Ribble AL E but I’m not convinced the hub motor is as future proof as I would like. I need pannier rock mounts and theres about 1000 feet of climbing on my commute so an urban pootler won’t cut the mustard either.

what do you recommend?


----------



## Specialeyes (3 Jul 2020)

Out of curiosity, what do you see as the issue with the Ebikemotion hub motor in the Ribble? It's in Wilier, Cannondale, Pinarello, Bianchi, Orbea, BH and Lapierre bikes amongst others as well as the Ribbles. Although the battery is built-in, it can be replaced via the bottom bracket.


----------



## mythste (3 Jul 2020)

Specialeyes said:


> Out of curiosity, what do you see as the issue with the Ebikemotion hub motor in the Ribble? It's in Wilier, Cannondale, Pinarello, Bianchi, Orbea, BH and Lapierre bikes amongst others as well as the Ribbles. Although the battery is built-in, it can be replaced via the bottom bracket.



really good question. I ride MTB a lot these days and the trend seems to be that all the decent quality e-bikes have moved to BB mounted motors. Admittedly this is anecdotal and based on the e-mtbers I ride with. Is this different on road bikes?


----------



## steve292 (3 Jul 2020)

What about the Whyte bikes. Expensive , but they have a BB mounted drive - Whyte Hoxton


----------



## mythste (3 Jul 2020)

steve292 said:


> What about the Whyte bikes. Expensive , but they have a BB mounted drive - Whyte Hoxton



looks beautiful doesn’t it! It’s the marketing that puts me off, it’s all “city commuter" which I understand to a degree but I’m commuting for littleborough (Lancashire/Yorkshire pennine border) to Manchester City centre and it’s a lumpy commute. the point is that I don’t want to bust a gut up the 10+% climbs en route.


----------



## CXRAndy (4 Jul 2020)

You could go aftermarket kit, Bafang or TSDZ2 are crank drive. You require a bike with 68/73mm threaded BB. A gravel bike with rack mounts allows battery fitment either on rack or on bottle mounts.

I fitted a TSDZ2 kit to my wife's shopper, I added extra bottle riv-nuts, batteries are heavy.

Bafang are pedal assist, considered stronger built than torque sensing TSDZ2


----------



## Zanelad (4 Jul 2020)

I can only recommend the Giant Fastroad E+. I commute 22 miles a day and it'll do four days comfortably between charges, 5 if you fancy a bit of a gamble on the last day. For leisure rides i do a regular 30 mile loop with around 1200 feet of climbing and it manages 2 trips with around 25-30% of the battery left. It's a comfortable bike, fast for a flat bar version. Ive fitted a rack, not too sure about mudguards. Front is ok but the rear might need a bit of ingenuity. I got round it by not riding in the rain


----------



## richtea (4 Jul 2020)

I have an Orbea with the same eBikeMotion setup as a Ribble, and I generally only use it up hills, and even then, only on the harsh ones.
However, you're after a sweat-free commute, which is slightly different. Even though you have to put in say 30-50% of the effort, it is a cushy number - I think you'll find it relatively easy, since you already cycle regularly.
And if you really want to take it easy, 28 miles is short enough that you can have assistance on all the time if you wanted.

I have a theory (totally unproven) that it's only non-cyclists that complain about these 'small battery' designs because they expect a completely free ride. I think they're a good compromise between weight and assistance, but as ever, it's horses for courses.

Lastly, in terms of hub motor (eBikeMotion) versus BB motor (Fazua) the Fazua seems better engineered, but is likely to cost you more. We have both in the family, and to all intents and purposes they both do a good job, but I can't yet comment on the lifetime of either.

Have a look at Boardman ADV 8.9E and Orbea D30 for examples of both hub and BB motors with reasonable pricing.
Both have mudguard and pannier rack mounting points.


----------



## fossyant (4 Jul 2020)

mythste said:


> Hello!
> 
> I have a 14 mile commute each way that I can comfortably do 3 times a week, sort of get away with 4 times a week, and kill myself on 5 times a week. And this is summer.
> 
> ...



Normal bike you lazy bugger.  Just think how quick you will be uphill on the MTB.


----------



## mythste (5 Jul 2020)

fossyant said:


> Normal bike you lazy bugger.  Just think how quick you will be uphill on the MTB.



I don’t see this as a replacement for the commuting I’m currently doing, but an addition to.

Either way, I’d rather be happy than first.


----------



## mythste (5 Jul 2020)

richtea said:


> I have an Orbea with the same eBikeMotion setup as a Ribble, and I generally only use it up hills, and even then, only on the harsh ones.
> However, you're after a sweat-free commute, which is slightly different. Even though you have to put in say 30-50% of the effort, it is a cushy number - I think you'll find it relatively easy, since you already cycle regularly.
> And if you really want to take it easy, 28 miles is short enough that you can have assistance on all the time if you wanted.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the insight! 

im looking at this as a serious utility option for long term shopping, visiting friends and family who are usually a car/train distance away, commuting, days after the night before re-alignment of chakras, etc. to just generally cut down my reliance on motorised vehicles and do something I enjoy in the process. 

I haven’t seen any for or against arguments about this kind of approach before but I’ve had to seriously re-consider my budget. Something like the specialized turbo vado or the cannondale Canvas neo. Expensive!


----------



## richtea (6 Jul 2020)

For a car replacement I think it certainly works for some journeys, but it depends on where you live, and what you want to do. But every little helps is the way I see it.

In terms of budget, I really wanted a Fazua-based bike (that's what my wife has), but the Orbea came up secondhand, a much less scary outlay, and I thought I'd give it a go. At worst, I thought I'd just sell it again. Turns out it's great fun - much better than expected! You might be able to take the same approach. Just make sure you get a well-looked after one, regardless of engine type/position. If you like it, you can always go for a fancier one in a year's time, and sell the first one.


----------



## mark2rally (21 Jul 2020)

Hi, I have the Ribble SLe. Broadly I'm happy with it BUT I have broken 4 spokes in the rear wheel in 10 weeks/1500 miles so theres an issue. Ribble say they want to send the wheel back to Mavic in France. Bearing in mind I ordered some spare spokes from Mavic through Condor cycles in London on the 1st june and they aint here yet (was told 2 weeks), the idea of my wheel going back to them is not one I'm up for.....bottom line, great bike, after sales support flaky.


----------



## Ananda (28 Jul 2020)

mythste said:


> Hello!
> 
> I have a 14 mile commute each way that I can comfortably do 3 times a week, sort of get away with 4 times a week, and kill myself on 5 times a week. And this is summer.
> 
> ...



For commuting chores I strongly recommend a mid drive kit fitted on an analogue bike. Bafang and tsdz2 are both more reliable than the fancy motors of the ready from factory ebikes and also with cheaper parts. Ideally fitted on a steel frame but by no means necessary. Commuting cost on an ebike is just ridiculous, for me it works out to a couple of € per 1000kms. My daily commutes are about the same as yours but on a very hilly area, basically there is not a single stretch of level road, its either up or down and I do use the ebike every single day of the week, weekends included.


----------



## Pale Rider (29 Jul 2020)

Nothing wrong with a hub motor, although the bottom bracket motors such as the Bosch tend to give a better rendition of 'proper' cycling due to their more sophisticated control systems.

Some riders couldn't give a stuff about that provided the bike helps them up hills, although experienced cyclists tend to prefer the more natural cycling feel of the Bosch and similar motors.

The Ebikemotion motor is light assist, so you need to test one to be satisfied it gives you the amount of assist you are after for the steeper banks.

The bottom bracket motors will give you more grunt, but even they are no balls of fire so will require some effort to get up 10 per cent and steeper climbs.


----------



## mythste (29 Jul 2020)

Ananda said:


> For commuting chores I strongly recommend a mid drive kit fitted on an analogue bike. Bafang and tsdz2 are both more reliable than the fancy motors of the ready from factory ebikes and also with cheaper parts. Ideally fitted on a steel frame but by no means necessary. Commuting cost on an ebike is just ridiculous, for me it works out to a couple of € per 1000kms. My daily commutes are about the same as yours but on a very hilly area, basically there is not a single stretch of level road, its either up or down and I do use the ebike every single day of the week, weekends included.



This is interesting. I value a good warrenty so I'm unlikely to go down this route. 

I am, however, very interested in your take on how they are more "reliable" than the alternatives. I assume you're talking about Shimano and Bosch?


----------



## Ananda (29 Jul 2020)

mythste said:


> This is interesting. I value a good warrenty so I'm unlikely to go down this route.
> 
> I am, however, very interested in your take on how they are more "reliable" than the alternatives. I assume you're talking about Shimano and Bosch?



It seems that most of them, (shimano and bosch included) have a fair share of problems. My take on this is that they cant produce enough numbers, business is booming and quality control has gone down the drain. It also seems that yamaha motors are the most reliable and bosch has the best support when there is a problem. At least this is what I have gathered throughout the years I am following the various internet fora. 

Apart from quality control, the "need" for light weight might also be a culprit, since it is mainly bearings that give up. All in all, my impression is that most ebikes sold using motors from the big companies are mostly weekend toys and not dependable workhorses. If you are familiar with computer programming terminology, the kits from bafang and tongsheng are far more in the "open source" mentality and I personally value this tremedously.


----------



## Ananda (29 Jul 2020)

Pale Rider said:


> Nothing wrong with a hub motor, although the bottom bracket motors such as the Bosch tend to give a better rendition of 'proper' cycling due to their more sophisticated control systems.
> 
> Some riders couldn't give a stuff about that provided the bike helps them up hills, although experienced cyclists tend to prefer the more natural cycling feel of the Bosch and similar motors.
> 
> ...



I am an average cyclist (but fit for my age of 50something) and I find the 250-500w of most mid drive kits more than enough, provided you choose wisely your cassette according to your terrain and chainring. 250w mid drive watts actually feel like a free ride even if they are not.


----------



## Drago (8 Aug 2020)

mythste said:


> really good question. I ride MTB a lot these days and the trend seems to be that all the decent quality e-bikes have moved to BB mounted motors. Admittedly this is anecdotal and based on the e-mtbers I ride with. Is this different on road bikes?


It can be helpful off road when chucking a bike about due to mass centralisation, and unsprung mass with suspension systems, but on the road that isn't really a consideration. 

As far as tarmac goes, there's no law of physics that makes it any better. The real differences are commercial - as the price point rises that's where manufacturers tend to move to, but for hauling you around your commute or to the shops a hub motor is liable to be perfect.


----------



## Ananda (8 Aug 2020)

Drago said:


> As far as tarmac goes, there's no law of physics that makes it any better. The real differences are commercial - as the price point rises that's where manufacturers tend to move to, but for hauling you around your commute or to the shops a hub motor is liable to be perfect.



Well, a motor that runs through a set of gears will always have a torque, speed and range advantage over one that is not. If however neither of these advantages is needed, then the simplicity of the hub motor cannot be beaten.


----------



## Drago (8 Aug 2020)

But most hub motors also have gears. Those that do, such as the Suntour HESC, have a planetary arrangement, a bit like an old SA hub in reverse, and they don't suffer drive train losses.







Don't believe too much of the tripe that's bandied around about BB or frame mounted motors. Mass centralisation and insprung mass aside, heres no law of physics that makes them inherently superior.


----------



## netman (8 Aug 2020)

I recently became the proud owner of a BMC Alpenchallenge AMP Cross One - it's a fantastic bike and can highly recommend. I had similar requirements to you... https://www.tredz.co.uk/bmc-electric-bikes


----------



## Ananda (8 Aug 2020)

Drago said:


> But most hub motors also have gears. Those that do, such as the Suntour HESC, have a planetary arrangement, a bit like an old SA hub in reverse, and they don't suffer drive train losses.
> 
> View attachment 540528
> 
> ...



By "gears" I meant a "gearbox". Multiple gear selection as opposed to just one. Add to that mass centralisation, unsprung mass etc and I am suddenly reminded of this:

View: https://youtu.be/Qc7HmhrgTuQ


----------

