# Time for action



## magnatom (1 Jul 2009)

Right. I am sick of hearing about cyclists being crushed by tipper lorries etc. It doesn't matter who's fault it is (sometimes the cyclist, sometimes the driver) the fact is that these deaths are completely avoidable. With a little more care and patience from both cyclist and driver these 'accidents' need not happen.

I think there are lots of drivers and cyclists who just don't understand the risks of left hooks (especially when there are barriers at the corners). So what can we do?

We could all moan about bad drivers/cyclists until we are blue in the face, but that wouldn't make a blind bit of difference. On here, we are (mainly) talking to the converted. 

So what should we do then?

Start an open source campaign. 

Since the last death, I have been thinking about the practicalities of making a video showing the dangers of the left hook. Video a cyclist next to the edge with a left turning HGV/tipper. Swap the cyclist for a polystyrene cut out and film what happens to it as the lorry turns the corner. With a lorry drivers help I am sure I could botch something together.

However, I also realised that we have a lot of talent on here, video editors, graphic designers, lorry drivers etc. So my idea is this: Why don't we start our own open source campaign to raise awareness of this issue? Together, I think we could put something pretty good together.

The media would like this sort of thing, cyclists working together to save lives (they would probably love the 'open source campaign' thing, though it would seem that is not entirely original). I could even use my media 'form' to raise awareness of it.

So is anyone willing to spare a bit of time for this? Do you think it is possible/ worth our while?

What do you think?

(I've placed this in commuting as it is relevant to this section)


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## Crankarm (1 Jul 2009)

magnatom said:


> Right. I am sick of hearing about cyclists being crushed by tipper lorries etc. It doesn't matter who's fault it is (sometimes the cyclist, sometimes the driver) the fact is that these deaths are completely avoidable. With a little more care and patience from both cyclist and driver these 'accidents' need not happen.
> 
> I think there are lots of drivers and cyclists who just don't understand the risks of left hooks (especially when there are barriers at the corners). So what can we do?
> 
> ...



Magnatom your idea is admirable and well intentioned. However owing to scale of the problem nothing short of a national awareness campaign would suffice in my mind which would involve national TV networks. These guys would unfortunately want big money to place adverts during prime time TV. The other alternative is making kids aware in schools although I don't know how many incidents of this type actually involve kids. I think most kids cycle on the pavements. Perhaps the cycling mags across the board could all be persuaded to run features at the same time with pics and diagrams and links to youtube videos such as the ones I anticipate you making. I think the major problem is tackling the lack of will or desire to tackle this outside the main stream cycling and lorry communities. Maybe TfL could be approached to help or fund a campaign as most incidents seem to occur in London. There must be money somewhere to fund a proper campaign as the Government is supposedly investing millions in cycling.

To fight a forest fire you need more than a watering can however capacious it is. Still I would like to offer support to your proposal. The longest journey still starts with a small step.


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## Bigtwin (1 Jul 2009)

magnatom said:


> So is anyone willing to spare a bit of time for this? Do you think it is possible/ worth our while?
> 
> What do you think?



Sadly not. Those "in authority" are well aware of this issue, as are the campaign groups etc.

The sad fact is that no one gives a stuff. By which I mean there is no appetite to spend any money to do anything about it. It's a problem of lack of will, not awareness. There are no votes in it.

Think of it this way. The Police etc don't even bother to enforce the ban on mobiles whilst driving, and that is a much more prevalent, dangerous, obvious and easy to control problem than the cycling issue.

In summary, laudable, but doomed to failure.


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## Crankarm (1 Jul 2009)

Bigtwin said:


> Sadly not. Those "in authority" are well aware of this issue, as are the campaign groups etc.
> 
> The sad fact is that no one gives a stuff. By which I mean there is no appetite to spend any money to do anything about it. It's a problem of lack of will, not awareness. There are no votes in it.
> 
> ...



Maybe so, but defeatism is not a reason for letting the current situation continue. So you wouldn't be offering any support or encouragement to Magnatom in his plan to try to bring awareness of this issue to all cyclists and other relevant road users?


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## simon_brooke (1 Jul 2009)

As far as I'm concerned there are two big problems with left hooks, which are actually caused by roads planners. Obviously the major problem with left hooks _is_ training, both of cyclists and drivers - so your video is a good idea, but....

Left hand cycle lanes leading into advanced stop line boxes persuade inexperienced cyclists that going up the inside of a truck is the right thing to do. After all, if it wasn't safe it wouldn't be painted on the road, would it?

Left-hand cycle lanes leading up to ASL boxes should definitely be banned; if there is a feeder lane it should be to the RIGHT of the rightmost lane in which vehicles can normally turn left (cycle lanes in the door zone should also be banned).

But the other thing is rigid barriers on corners. So many cyclists are crushed between HGVs and a rigid barrier. That rigid barrier simply does not need to be there. I appreciate that on some city junctions the press of pedestrians on the pavement can sometimes be so great that you have to have some sort of barrier to prevent peds being pushed into the roadway, but surely those barriers could be designed to they fold inwards easily?

But yes, video is a great idea. To be fair there are some excellent videos already on Youtube - this one from Paris impressed me recently:


View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAethD1Io_Y&eurl=http://hembrow.blogspot.com/&feature=player_embedded


But if you're serious and need help, I'd put some time in (I'm assuming you're planning to do it somewhere near Glasgow). We'd need to find a friendly HGV driver (with truck). We'd need a junction with railings on the corner, we'd need a quiet Sunday morning, and we'd need co-operation from the police and probably the local roads department. TBH I doubt either of those would be difficult to get.

(edited to add) Using this as a feeder for a petition to the petitions committe of parliament would be a good plan, too - to ask for (at minimum) public money to get the video on television and the removal of those feeder lanes!


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## Bokonon (1 Jul 2009)

Origamist started a thread pointing to a RoSPA video covering this issue.


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## colinr (1 Jul 2009)

> Magnatom your idea is admirable and well intentioned. However owing to scale of the problem nothing short of a national awareness campaign would suffice in my mind which would involve national TV networks.



Social media and that - YouTube, Facebook, Forums, Twitter. Start small, build a buzz, get noticed.

Parts of the press love all this newfangled stuff, makes them look up to date and requires very little work to quote a bunch of other people.


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## magnatom (1 Jul 2009)

I completely understand the drop in the ocean issue, i.e. we couldn't make a difference. I disagree with this. 

I remember when I started making my videos, folk told me no-one would care etc. Now I've had over 250,000 views of my videos and nearly 300 subscribers. (Most folk don't bother subscribing, so I am sure plenty more watch my videos) So people do care. As well as that, the media love stories of normal 'Joes' taking action for themselves. 

Add to that the frghtening statistic of how many cyclists have been killed this year already and we have a story in the making. People power can make a difference. Of course if we could get the support of a celeb (Vicky for instance who I know has feeling on this subject) all the better, but that would only come (if at all) once we got the ball rolling.

So come on guys, less of the 'it'll never work' attitude. Of course it won't, if we don't try.

Simon, thanks for the offer!  Yes there are a few practicalities that we need to sorted out. It doesn't need to be in Glasgow. There may be others who are better at filming etc. I don't care about 'owning' this, I just thought it was time to get off my backside and see if we could do something.


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## Bigtwin (1 Jul 2009)

Crankarm said:


> Maybe so, but *defeatism* is not a reason for letting the current situation continue. So you wouldn't be offering any support or encouragement to Magnatom in his plan to try to bring awareness of this issue to all cyclists and other relevant road users?



No, but realism is. I wish him the best of luck, and of course hope I am wrong. But I have been active on similarish issues with motorcycling and young people's cycling training, and I know that the impact one can make is absolutely minimal. As pointed out above and on other threads, there is a wealth of material already out there, and this is covered in cycling proficiency as was, HGV training etc etc. At the end of the day, people's behaviour is very very hard to change, certainly by small measures - there will always be stupid people doing stupid things, and you just won't change that.

To make a real difference, one needs fundamental changes at local and central government level. There are already very well organised and funded bodies campainging very effectively there ("very" is a relative concept here of course). Sometimes less is more, perhaps better to fall in with one of those and use their resources. Other than that, any impact is going to be very small/local.


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## magnatom (1 Jul 2009)

colinr said:


> Social media and that - YouTube, Facebook, Forums, Twitter. Start small, build a buzz, get noticed.
> 
> Parts of the press love all this newfangled stuff, makes them look up to date and requires very little work to quote a bunch of other people.




Exactly. I know there are videos covering this issue already, but as you say this type of video, made by cyclists, could create it's own buzz.


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## scouserinlondon (1 Jul 2009)

What's shocked me the most from the threads on LondonFGSS is the sheer number of HGV related fatalities that go un-reported. 

I feel a great thing we could do is to expose the number of incidents which occur and identify accident black spots digitally and by aggregating the numbers create an impactful web presence which shows the scale of the problem.

I assume TFL makes this data available to the public for London, it shouldn't be too hard to represent it. I'm thinking of something along the lines of the met police crime map. 

If we had this resource (perhaps hosted on this site or LCC) we could then append videos and individual's stories to that site to generate the human interested and prevention part of it.


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## Crankarm (1 Jul 2009)

I would be prepared to map all cycling fatalities on mapmyrun.com if a list could be drawn up of those that have occurred this year. There must be a large proportion of them mentioned here. One could also indicate whether car or HGV/bus fatal collision. Would need to know exactly where the collision took place though. Where would one get this info using official sources? Data Protection issues may well be sited to avoid divulging information. Perhaps something a journo at the Beeb could take on as there may be cost implications in getting this info but it s certainly in the public interest so they might consider it? Panorama even?


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## hackbike 666 (1 Jul 2009)

Mobile phones don't help either.I had an argument with a black cab driver yesterday at London Bridge because the knob wasn't concentrating with me behind him then in front of him.Seems like they can do what they want out there.

It seems hard enough for people to hold any sort of concentration in this weather anyway.


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## magnatom (1 Jul 2009)

I think if something like this worked it would be great to expand it, but I think to kick things off we need focus. The interaction of large vehicles, cyclists at left turns seems to be the situation where most are killed and thus should be the focus of any campaign. Keep it simple.

So any other volunteers?


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## Plax (1 Jul 2009)

I'll volunteer. Not quite sure what I can do as I don't really make videos and there's not all that many cyclists here compared to the big cities but I can certainly do some kind of "campaigning" I suppose!


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## magnatom (1 Jul 2009)

Plax said:


> I'll volunteer. Not quite sure what I can do as I don't really make videos and there's not all that many cyclists here compared to the big cities but I can certainly do some kind of "campaigning" I suppose!




Excellent! I can see it now...

....and now i'll pass you over to our Welsh correspondent!


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## Plax (1 Jul 2009)

magnatom said:


> Excellent! I can see it now...
> 
> ....and now i'll pass you over to our Welsh correspondent!



 Well from a publicity point of view, I am female and there does seem to be a higher than average number of females crushed by large left turning vehicles. Your average unconfident female cyclists might relate better to another female.


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## Nigel-YZ1 (1 Jul 2009)

Just a thought while I was reading this: I've driven over the Woodhead pass and on some roads in Lincolnshire lately and I've noticed signs, which I'm guessing are put up by the local authority to try and grab the thought of motorbikers.
They're yellow signs, mounted low down, with a picture of a biker, and an eye catching phrase such as 'Bend DEAD ahead' or 'Worth DYING for'. They appear on straights or corners and have the DEATH part highlighted.

Do any of the bikers on here have an opinion on whether these change behaviour?

Imagine a sign at a left hook spot, picture of truck beside cycle, and a message like 'DYING to undertake' or 'Left turn DEAD ahead'. Would that change behaviour?


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## magnatom (1 Jul 2009)

Plax said:


> Well from a publicity point of view, I am female and there does seem to be a higher than average number of females crushed by large left turning vehicles. Your average unconfident female cyclists might relate better to another female.



Very true. If your pretty and have a gentle Welsh accent then you can consider yourself hired as the face of the campaign!


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## magnatom (1 Jul 2009)

Nigel,

Maybe. The problem is there is so much road furniture in cities that they tend to be ignored. However, some form of signage at particular 'hot spots' is certainly something worth considering.


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## magnatom (1 Jul 2009)

I should also add, if anyone here works with the media or has media contacts who might be interested in this (I might have a couple of contacts myself) then this would be useful as well.


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## wesa (1 Jul 2009)

I'm no good at editing video or pictures, I am not a publicist, I am not in the media and I don't know anyone who is, I am not female & I am not attractive.

But I am willing to help

edit - and I live a long way from Glasgow!


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## PBancroft (1 Jul 2009)

I might be willing to get involved, depending on how the video was made. I've shot videos before (I'll post a link to one later) and they are very varied in how watchable they are.

The only thing I would say is that spreading a viral message like this through the Internet would not be easy. You would need to strike the very fine balance between giving a serious message, and making it something people would want to watch. Think: Did you see the moonwalking bear?


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## Crankarm (1 Jul 2009)

Kaipaith said:


> I might be willing to get involved, depending on how the video was made. I've shot videos before (I'll post a link to one later) and they are very varied in how watchable they are.
> 
> The only thing I would say is that spreading a viral message like this through the Internet would not be easy. You would need to strike the very fine balance between giving a serious message, and making it something people would want to watch. Think: *Did you see the moonwalking bear?*



There's a moon walking bear!? It's amazing what they have managed to put up there. All he needs now is a bike .


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## Amanda P (1 Jul 2009)

I have nothing to offer but encouragement. 

And to do that, I'd point out that there have been YouTube clips that substantial proportions of the UK population must have seen, or at least heard of. Word spreads and everyone gets to hear of it. Little input from the National Media is required.

Go for it and do your worst, Magnatom et al.


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## magnatom (1 Jul 2009)

wesa,

All help is gratefully accepted! I'm sure we can find something for you to do! 

Kaipath,

Obviously we need to think about the approach we take, I certainly haven't worked that out yet, and hopefully when enough people have shown an interest in doing this, we can come up with a strategy. 

I'm not sure a 'pure' internet approach is the way that I would go. Yes we would certainly need interwebby presence, but that's why I think we need to get the conventional media involved as well. 

Another way forward would be if we could get family of someone who has been killed in this way involved. Obviously this would have to be done with some care, but again, that would increase media interest.

These are just thoughts at the moment, more thoughts and suggestions are of course welcome!


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## PBancroft (1 Jul 2009)

Your idea about swapping out the cyclist for polystyrene is a good one. I would be tempted to make a switch back to the cyclist again after the impact, battered and crushed.

Just to bring the realism home.


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## magnatom (1 Jul 2009)

Another random thought. I'm not a fan, but the Take That song Patience would seem appropriate as a soundtrack if we were to base the campaign/video on this concept.


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## magnatom (1 Jul 2009)

Kaipaith said:


> Your idea about swapping out the cyclist for polystyrene is a good one. I would be tempted to make a switch back to the cyclist again after the impact, battered and crushed.
> 
> Just to bring the realism home.



Yes, something along those lines. I think you would have to have a crushed bike, helmet some personal effects etc to help bring the message home.


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## Jake (1 Jul 2009)

I'm with Magantron here. Something needs to be done, and if we sit here and do nothing, then nothing will get done - WILL IT? Give it a go, see who picks up on it, send it in to tv magazine shows such as GMTV, BBC Breakfast and Good mornig. Is Judy and Richard still going on? The poolice can get a copy, and lorry companies around town.

I edit videos, make websites, got a film crew here, but used to fiming people with not much on.


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## scouserinlondon (1 Jul 2009)

I'm a web marketing chap so sure I can add something along the way, even if it's just getting cheap champagne and ecstasy for the wrap party.


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## fossyant (1 Jul 2009)

Idea,

It's worth us all putting signs up in our work cycle stands..... may just make one cyclist think.

Like this

http://www.kiwicycles.com/links.htm


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## Jake (1 Jul 2009)

was thining of getting the high quality images from the papers andusing slow zooms and pans into the images in part of the advert. Anyone good with music?


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## CopperBrompton (1 Jul 2009)

The RoSPA video is worthy, but so interminably boring that I can't see many watching it. A snazzier, shorter version that has viral potential would be worthwhile, I think.

I would be happy to contribute still photography to the project.

Ben www.photographybybenlovejoy.com


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## fossyant (1 Jul 2009)

> Great idea. Can we get a bigger version of that sign. I'd laminate it now and stick it up at our bike park now.




It prints out OK on portrait A4 - just stuck it up in ours. Will take one to my other site tomorrow.


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## Crankarm (1 Jul 2009)

fossyant said:


> Idea,
> 
> It's worth us all putting signs up in our work cycle stands..... may just make one cyclist think.
> 
> ...



How about putting the image on a T-shirt?


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## Jake (1 Jul 2009)

If there was funding then yes. Also if there was fundung, (pipe dream), then have the image/warnting printed onto the back of fluorescent waste coats like Sky did last year for the reclaim the streets cycle day thingy.


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## scouserinlondon (1 Jul 2009)

Jake said:


> If there was funding then yes. Also if there was fundung, (pipe dream), then have the image/warnting printed onto the back of fluorescent waste coats like Sky did last year for the reclaim the streets cycle day thingy.



If we can come up with a clear and workable concept then maybe we can draft in a PR type to do some pro-bono plugging? There may even be the odd PR on here?


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## semislickstick (1 Jul 2009)

I'd be willing to help, don't know how. Clearly something more needs to be done here, I'd rather be doing something active that might help, if we are only talking about it on a cycle forum we are pretty much preaching to the converted.
Also maybe get a HGV forum involved? Shared experiences from both sides rather than being preachy and a hate relationship with each other.


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## magnatom (1 Jul 2009)

Thanks guys for the input and support. 

User, that is indeed a good sticker and I too would add that to our bike shed. 

I came across this






on londonfgss.

Is anyone here a member on there? I'm sure those guys would want to help out.


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## scouserinlondon (1 Jul 2009)

semislickstick said:


> I'd be willing to help, don't know how. Clearly something more needs to be done here, I'd rather be doing something active that might help, if we are only talking about it on a cycle forum we are pretty much preaching to the converted.
> Also maybe get a HGV forum involved? Shared experiences from both sides rather than being preachy and a hate relationship with each other.




Hmm, I may be able to help there. I used to work on trucking mags and still have contact with their editor. We need a clear campaign and idea and I'll call him.


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## karlos_the_jackal (1 Jul 2009)

I'd be up for supporting it. Am a bit of an entreprenuer myself (plug www.myolondon.com) so have been looking at cheap ways to advertise. If everybody has bikes think we could possibly get wheel discs with the logos. everybody looks at each other bikes at junctions. Also investigated clean graffitti myself and the templates only cost about £70 to be made up, anybody got a high pressure washer and a van then we can target several locations in a night and its not breaking the law.


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## upsidedown (1 Jul 2009)

I would have thought that the media of choice would be a full pager in The Sun. It must be read on more building sites, loading bays, bus depots and anywhere else that drivers are trying to pass half an hour than any other publication out there. Being completely naive about media matters i have no idea what it would cost, but there must be an organisation out there that would help.

The Metro also has a section where they focus on websites, normally about cat's dancing but i'm sure they could be persuaded, i guess a lot of London cyclists are also train users.


On the original idea though, great initiative and i would be more than happy to help, although i don't have any arty type skills or experience. 
Good luck with it Mags.


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## Jake (1 Jul 2009)

some lorries do have stickers and warnings on them now which is great. So another place is to put them there too.

whos up for going to No.10? I know Mag likes publicity ;o)


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## magnatom (1 Jul 2009)

scouserinlondon said:


> Hmm, I may be able to help there. I used to work on trucking mags and still have contact with their editor. We need a clear campaign and idea and I'll call him.




Excellent! I absolutely agree that this has to be joint. Does anyone post on HGV forums to gauge willingness to help. If it came from both sides that would certainly remove any feeling of preaching from those 'bloody cyclists'. Also having both groups committed would also raise the media interest.

And thanks Ben for the photograph offer. Some emotive images would certainly help!

semislickstick, thanks for the offer of help. I'm sure we can find a way to get everyone involved.


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## ttcycle (1 Jul 2009)

Magnatom - I'm in; I can lend a hand campaign wise as have been involved with community campaigns before so can help with strategy etc; photography perhaps; I can even lend my youthful pretty female face - am down in London. Have a broadsheet media contact.



Bigtwin said:


> To make a real difference, one needs fundamental changes at local and central government level. There are already very well organised and funded bodies campainging very effectively there ("very" is a relative concept here of course). Sometimes less is more, perhaps better to fall in with one of those and use their resources. Other than that, any impact is going to be very small/local.



As for this bigtwin - people will not change their behaviour because they have been told to from above ie government - changes, effective ones at least come from people understanding through education and learning and this often happens at a grassroots level.


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## Speicher (1 Jul 2009)

Slightly off topic, but relevant. As mentionned before, females perhaps do not realise the danger of vehicles turning left. I thought I did until yesterday! 

I was walking along a main road, where there are separate outlined paths for cyclists and pedestrians. As I approached a side road, the entrance to a large industrial estate, I heard the sound of a large engine approach me from behind and so I stopped well before the kerb.

Even so, I was shocked by how far over onto the other side of the road, (into which he was turning) he drove *before turning* and then how close he came to the pavement near to where I was. I had the space behind me to move back a further three yards, so I did. Seeing the turning space he needed was eye-opening to say the least. Further surprising, I knew they needed space to turn, but not how the back trailer "cuts" in on the corner. I have been driving for over thirty years, but a different perspective was obviously needed. Without being sexist, the males on here probably already knew that, but young females - I would doubt it. Don't ask me the weight of the truck but it was one of those with a seperate cab and a trailer about twenty or thirty feet long. 

I am not sure how I can help in your idea, Magnatom, but I think it is a good idea. We have lots of people on this forum who could pool their expertise and ideas.


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## Jake (1 Jul 2009)

there are loads of places to hand out leaflets, there is always some event on in brockwell park. bit late for nude cyclist day ;o)


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## magnatom (1 Jul 2009)

No 10, hmmm would the UK stand for another Scottish PM?! 

Thanks ttcycle. That's an excellent offer. Of course your post is useless without pictures....

I think we need to come up with a communication strategy before we come up with a campaign strategy. I wonder if we need a seperate section somewhere here to allow us to conduct this on multiple threads, i.e. thread for video content, thread for publicity strategy etc...

I think it is important to keep as much discussion public as this is a open source campaign after all!


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## Bigtwin (1 Jul 2009)

ttcycle said:


> As for this bigtwin - people will not change their behaviour because they have been told to from above ie government - changes, effective ones at least come from people understanding through education and learning and this often happens at a grassroots level.



Whatever - it's not a question of telling people and I didn't say it was. But you're fooling yourself if you think you are going to get big grassroots impact without pushing it down from the top.

What needs to happen is proper provision, appropriate street lay-out and furniture, training in schools etc etc.

Like I said, crack on and good luck with it. I've just been involved in too many of these things before to have anything other than realistic ideas of what can be done. For ever one you hear about, there are a thousand you don't. And while everyone raves about the impact of the web on an internet forum, in the real world, almost nothing gets beyond niche cult viewing.

Think of the minimal impact of properly funded campaigns that everyone has an interest in and take no effort to do - prostrate cancer checking would be one example, anti litter campaings another, and so on. Still sod all people take any notice.

Everyone thinks publicity and campaigning is easy. And it is. Changing people's behaviour with it isn't - it's very very difficult.

And remember, this problem is a big deal to us. In the big scheme of things it's a non event. Look at the number of children killed on our roads each year - look at the overall numbers. We all know speed kills due to to massive media campaigns - then look at behaviour on roads.


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## magnatom (1 Jul 2009)

Speicher,

I don't think it is just the ladies who don't get this, but yes you are right that a lot of people don't understand. I have seen trucks sit in the right lane with left indicators on. 

I remember saying to my wife a few years back, 'what's he up to!' She pointed out to me that he needed to be there to make it around the corner! (I hadn't passed my driving test then! ).


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## Jake (1 Jul 2009)

have you begun to make a list of who can do what, and location?

was not sure about PM just yet, more a publicity thing of handing poster, video, petition in to get more free media interest


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## Speicher (1 Jul 2009)

Magnatom

That's what makes me think that some people expect to be able to zip thru on his near side. The truck looks like it is going straight on, then turns, then the trailer cuts the corner. The truck driver is watching the traffic, so has not noticed (understandably) the smaller cyclist on his left.


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## magnatom (1 Jul 2009)

Bigtwin said:


> Everyone thinks publicity and campaigning is easy. And it is. Changing people's behaviour with it isn't - it's very very difficult.



...but it only takes one person to actually make a change. If I can change one persons attitude and actions, it is worth it for me. Everything else is a bonus. 

Too many people (not personal) just throw in the towel. Thats one of societies biggest problems. The more people who fight for what they believe in the better in my opinion.


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## magnatom (1 Jul 2009)

Jake said:


> have you begun to make a list of who can do what, and location?
> 
> was not sure about PM just yet, more a publicity thing of handing poster, video, petition in to get more free media interest




Not yet. I've got to get on with some work. If someone has the time to compile a list that would be great!


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## Speicher (1 Jul 2009)

That FAST campaign, for recognising strokes. I take it that started with one person's idea.


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## Bigtwin (1 Jul 2009)

magnatom said:


> ...but it only takes one person to actually make a change. If I can change one persons attitude and actions, it is worth it for me. Everything else is a bonus.
> 
> Too many people (not personal) just throw in the towel. That's one of societies biggest problems. The more people who fight for what they believe in the better in my opinion.



Then you'd be be better off standing at the side of the road and talking to people actually in the situation. That's bang for your buck.

Web oddities and t-shirts do jack. It's just the way it is.


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## bonj2 (1 Jul 2009)

Everyone writes to not only their MP but also the candidates standing against them at the next general election, asking them what they plan to do about road safety.

We then keep a "roll of honour" of those who have taken the initiative to do this.

Is it possible to find out the names and addresses of the candidates who are seeking to stand for election as well as the MP?


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## ttcycle (1 Jul 2009)

magnatom said:


> Of course your post is useless without pictures....
> quote]
> 
> Dearie me Magnatom - I have no pictures at work - you'll just have to take my word for it!! Here take this emoticon instead  lmao
> ...


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## Jake (1 Jul 2009)

Everything and everyone started somewhere. What did that old chap say on the tv clips you see now and again:

"we choose to go to the moon..., not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too."

if you don't try, we would all be stuck riding around on buffolo and complaining about being stabbed by their horns lol


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## karlos_the_jackal (1 Jul 2009)

I think need to also focus on which are the major groups of riders and HGV drivers to focus on. e.g. who are we trying to educate. a mass campaign to the general public might help but a more focused approach will help more. 

I think it is essential to get HGV driver support as they might add another perspective to it also. 

Delivery of campaigns are easy, making sure you actually get through to the right people is harder.


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## karlos_the_jackal (1 Jul 2009)

Jake said:


> Everything and everyone started somewhere. What did that old chap say on the tv clips you see now and again:
> 
> "we choose to go to the moon..., not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too."
> 
> Just to say on that quote, NASA didn't want to go to the moon, they had no great scientific need or want. Funding sky rocketed after the president said that.


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## semislickstick (1 Jul 2009)

*That sticker.....*

http://www.trucknetuk.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=33935

A worrying thread, hopefully some of the comments are just 'hot air' but one poster strongly objected to a cyclist passing on the right when there was a perfectly good cycle path on the left that he'd just made a little more room near. 
There are a good number of sense talking HGV driver/cyclists on there too, maybe they are worth talking to. A shared campaign would probably get more notice and better knowledge of why other road users act in certain ways.



magnatom said:


> Thanks guys for the input and support.
> 
> User, that is indeed a good sticker and I too would add that to our bike shed.
> 
> ...


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## Bollo (1 Jul 2009)

I can't add much to the skills or ideas pots, but agree that an effort should be made.

The collateral (film, stickers, posters etc) isn't really the issue. The success or otherwise of any campaign is about the distribution of the message. My feeling is that a targeted approach would work better, aimed at cyclists and lorry drivers rather than J Public. I get the impression that targeting the lorry drivers would be easier, as there are identifiable points of contact (licensing, during tests, haulage firms etc).

With cyclists, its a much broader church. I get the impression that the type of rider guilty of the undertake covers the whole spectrum from the clueless PoB to the overconfident road warrior, so it would be no good using cycling or safety-specific channels such as the CTC, LCC, even RoSPA as they'll only hit a narrow target audience. The only place that most cyclists have in common is the road, so whatever gets done should be delivered at the roadside.

As for a daft suggestion, how about getting some out-of-work conceptual artists to do some moveable 'installations' or performances at dangerous junctions.


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## CopperBrompton (1 Jul 2009)

It's again down to education.

One of the truckers on there pointed out why cyclists don't use cycle lanes, but that wouldn't have been at all obvious to someone who doesn't cycle.


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## grhm (1 Jul 2009)

magnatom said:


> Thanks guys for the input and support.
> 
> User, that is indeed a good sticker and I too would add that to our bike shed.
> 
> ...




Not wishing to dilute the direction ... but cycle/bus interactions are an issue too, aren't they?

Don't buses have space on the back for adverts and such like. I've vague recollections of signs to the back right of buses with a "Let buses out" type message on it.

I'd imagine theres scope to get something like this sticker on the back left of buses. It'll only take getting one or two bus companies in a town to sign up, to be able to get near total bus coverage.

Any one have contact's with bus companies? Anyone able to alter the above to be a bus and not a HGV? (or prehaps presently both bus and HGV?)


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## Jake (1 Jul 2009)

that truckers link don't make for nice reading

also busses are jbad too. last night bendy bus infront. always make a point of checking indicators now and it was clear, so cycled up inside as traffic was slowing up for the flights infront and thought he was too, but no, he decided to turn left on me. It was all ok as was hanging back anywy as knew he could do just that. seems his indicators only work when he is actualy making the turn, not before. A bit like some black cabs lol


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## ttcycle (1 Jul 2009)

I'll check out with a contact of mine re the buses and getting stickers on the back of them- whether this will be easy to do legitimately or whether it has to be a case of guerilla stickering.


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## Jake (1 Jul 2009)

project the image onto the houses of parliament


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## CopperBrompton (1 Jul 2009)

The Mayor's office would be a good start for London


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## magnatom (1 Jul 2009)

Lots of ideas! Good stuff. We will have to get some material first, images and video before we take it anywhere, but the ideas are something we can work on. 

Bollo, I diagree, in that to get to all of the cyclists we need to go 'Joe Public', i.e. national media, but I think we could do that along with some focussed material. Of course, before we decide this we will need material. I'll try and come up with an outline for a video, and if anyone else wants to try this, feel free. We can bat some ideas around and then come up with a way of filming and producing it.


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## bonj2 (1 Jul 2009)

magnatom said:


> Lots of ideas! Good stuff. We will have to get some material first, images and video before we take it anywhere, but the ideas are something we can work on.
> 
> Bollo, I diagree, in that to get to all of the cyclists we need to go 'Joe Public', i.e. national media, but I think we could do that along with some focussed material. Of course, before we decide this we will need material. I'll try and come up with an outline for a video, and if anyone else wants to try this, feel free. We can bat some ideas around and then come up with a way of filming and producing it.



At the risk of pissing on your bomfire, which isn't my intention, I think MY idea of maximising the amount of people writing to MPs would have more actual _effect_ than what you're proposing, yet it looks like the intention is more to whip up a big media frenzy and to bolster yourself into even more of a celebrity than you already have.

You just want glory and fame! 

"Time for action" as in road safety action, or Time for action as in lights camera action?


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## magnatom (1 Jul 2009)

Hmm. I've just remembered one of my old school friends now has an online advertising agency down in London ( he's the CEO I think). They do viral stiff etc. I haven't spoken to him in years, but I'm sure he will remember me (he put a chewit in my hair once and we had a fight. I won of course!  (we were friends afterwards!)

I wonder if it would be too cheeky to contact him and see if he could help. No harm in trying, or would it just piss him off?


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## bonj2 (1 Jul 2009)

magnatom said:


> Hmm. I've just remembered one of my old school friends now has an online advertising agency down in London ( he's the CEO I think). They do viral stiff etc. I haven't spoken to him in years, but I'm sure he will remember me (he put a chewit in my hair once and we had a fight. I won of course!  (we were friends afterwards!)
> 
> I wonder if it would be too cheeky to contact him and see if he could help. No harm in trying, or would it just piss him off?



When are you going to get on richard and judy?


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## magnatom (1 Jul 2009)

bonj said:


> At the risk of pissing on your bomfire, which isn't my intention, I think MY idea of maximising the amount of people writing to MPs would have more actual _effect_ than what you're proposing, yet it looks like the intention is more to whip up a big media frenzy and to bolster yourself into even more of a celebrity than you already have.
> 
> You just want glory and fame!
> 
> "Time for action" as in road safety action, or Time for action as in lights camera action?





Ha! Read my posts ya muppet!  You will actually find that I would happily have someone female and pretty heading this campaign. I'm no media expert, but having someone who comes across well and is a representative of the group of people this needs to be most aimed at (female cyclists). As well as that, a pretty female face would appeal to the almost exclusively male skip/lorry drivers.

I'll quite happily slink into the background.


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## bonj2 (1 Jul 2009)

magnatom said:


> Ha! Read my posts ya muppet!  You will actually find that I would happily have someone female and pretty heading this campaign. I'm no media expert, but having someone who comes across well and is a representative of the group of people this needs to be most aimed at (female cyclists). As well as that, a pretty female face would appeal to the almost exclusively male skip/lorry drivers.
> 
> I'll quite happily slink into the background.



Why does it mainly need to be aimed at female cyclists?


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## magnatom (1 Jul 2009)

bonj said:


> Why does it mainly need to be aimed at female cyclists?




It is mainly female cyclist who are getting killed. I don't personally have the numbers, but someone earlier pointed out it was something like 5 female, 1 male this year.


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## bonj2 (1 Jul 2009)

magnatom said:


> It is mainly female cyclist who are getting killed. I don't personally have the numbers, but someone earlier pointed out it was something like 5 female, 1 male this year.



If it's an uneven distribution it must be something to do with differences in behaviour of female cyclists to male. e.g. females ride close to the kerb too much.


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## magnatom (1 Jul 2009)

bonj said:


> If it's an uneven distribution it must be something to do with differences in behaviour of female cyclists to male. e.g. females ride close to the kerb too much.


There is a suggestion that male cyclists being more aggressive tend to be at the front of queues (jumping red lights etc) that make them less likely to be left hooked. Not sure I buy that...

However, it wouldn't just be aimed at ladies. I'll lead it if I have to, but I think others may be better suited.


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## Davywalnuts (1 Jul 2009)

I'll keep an eye on this thread and its movements and i'll offer any help I can if I can.

Good luck! 

Power to the cyclist!


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## magnatom (1 Jul 2009)

User1314 said:


> Londonfgss are also discussing ways of highlighting this issue.
> 
> Why not partner wih them?



I've just posted over there!


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## Jake (1 Jul 2009)

good god, this is one of the reasons I don't like this forum much (but still post). I find that not matter what you say, there is at least someone who will say the opposite. If you say something is white they will say its black just to be awkward. Its not about debate or different views, i think some people on here are jerks. Views/opinions are like peanuts, everyone has got one. If you don't want to help save laves, or at least try, then SHUT UP.

So Mag', someone needs to do a storyboard if there is going to be a video, any ides who is designing a poster? The more possitive people on board, the better, other chat groups etc.


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## magnatom (1 Jul 2009)

Calm down Jake, it's not that bad!

I have no problems with anything anyone has said on this thread. I don't necessarily agree but I think it is good to have those who are anti the idea. It make you reassess what you are doing, and why you are doing it, IMO.


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## semislickstick (1 Jul 2009)

bonj said:


> If it's an uneven distribution it must be something to do with differences in behaviour of female cyclists to male. e.g. females ride close to the kerb too much.



I wonder if womans smaller size ever comes into it? Harder to see in mirrors or the corner of your eye...if you looked? Not much in it really is there.

An old friend was killed by an HGV at a T-junction whist she commuting to work, she was trying to right and HGV must have swung out right to turn left.
So, it's just not a good idea to pass on the right or left of something that has to swing out a different way to how its indicating and the back end usually cutting in, not always obvious!


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## magnatom (1 Jul 2009)

Oh I should add, I've never done a story board etc. I'll try and jot some ideas down and post them here. My mind hasn't got that far yet.

If anyone else has ideas please put them up here. I'm certainly no expert at this, so any help is appreciated!


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## Jake (1 Jul 2009)

lol sorry, just got int from the heat. rather hot out there, phew! yes i tihnk i needed a little rant. Yes its good to have different opinions and views for sure. *throws cup of water over head*

yes i guess things are getting ahead of themselves a little, good to get excited about a project


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## magnatom (1 Jul 2009)

I don't think I've said this explicitly, but my idea of a theme would be patience, i.e. for the cyclist to hand back or for the HGV to hang back. If this campaign worked the patience theme could be applied elsewhere, i.e. close passes, red light jumping etc. Lack of it is the cause of most of the problems on the road in my opinion...


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## scouserinlondon (1 Jul 2009)

magnatom said:


> I don't think I've said this explicitly, but my idea of a theme would be patience, i.e. for the cyclist to hand back or for the HGV to hang back. If this campaign worked the patience theme could be applied elsewhere, i.e. close passes, red light jumping etc. Lack of it is the cause of most of the problems on the road in my opinion...


patience not patients if you will.

I think the best way to get the most impact of our spare time and blagged favours is for us to be really clear on exactly what our message, call to action etc is. 

then we can think of lots of things to do including putting pressure on MPs, raising awareness and making cool web stuff.

If our message is - 'be patient' then that's great. If it's specifically 'don't go down the left of HGV's then that's cool too' but the more simple the more impactful.


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## charlie_lcc (1 Jul 2009)

I've just posted some comments about the ROSPA video in that thread:
http://www.cyclechat.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=36214&page=2#19 

London Cycling Campaign are trying to find funding to support a programme giving extra 'cycle awareness' training for HGV drivers and asking companies only to use the best transport contractors:
http://www.lcc.org.uk/index.asp?PageID=1399 

-
Charlie.


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## HJ (1 Jul 2009)

Bokonon said:


> Origamist started a thread pointing to a RoSPA video covering this issue.



That RoSPA video covers all you need, it just needs to be shown more widely...


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## Jake (1 Jul 2009)

it is rather long, a great educational tool. I think people are thinking along the lines of a 30second advert and campaign with relative posters, a complete package. Could the people interested just get the Gov to make it?


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## mattybain (1 Jul 2009)

I agree the ROSPA video is excellent but I think Magnatoms idea is good and more likely to be picked up by the media.


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## PBancroft (1 Jul 2009)

I said that I would share a video I made a while back. Here it is. NSFW by the way. Also its a WMV which will give you an idea of how long ago I uploaded it... and I was scarily skinny in those days. 

Its not the best shot video in the world, but is kind of a laugh. And its watchable.


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## summerdays (1 Jul 2009)

I was also thinking about this yesterday and had the thought that one way to reach cyclists was at the point of sale in Bike shops - a leaflet with every bike sold - yes some wouldn't be read but some would, even reaching one person would be worth it. 

Its a message I pass onto new cyclists that I meet.


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## Jake (1 Jul 2009)

video link didnt work for me

summerdays, great idea. The leaflet comes with every new bike, good thinking  If there is a poster in every shop, when your queing for hours like in most Evans, you read it and eventually it will sink in.

yes MP, i put a picture up of one in NY, where people had been hit by cars or something, there was a silhouette of a guy, like in the old murder films with chalk. I was thinking this could be done with a bike on the road, then came to think that would not work as it would confuse people with all the other road markings and junk on the roads.


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## scouserinlondon (1 Jul 2009)

I'd gladly tape/cable tie a flyer to every bike near where I park mine. Surely a flyer taped to the bars or saddle wouldn't piss too many people off. It needs to have the basic info and a url.

Simples.


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## Jake (1 Jul 2009)

who's going to sacrifice their bike? hehe


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## magnatom (1 Jul 2009)

Ok. Here is an idea to think about/shoot down in flames.

Start with the caption, 'Can you spot something unusual that this HGV driver might miss?'

Fade to POV video from the HGV drivers perspective. This would include a good view out the front with the mirror visible on the left hand side.

Normal driving on approach to a left turn junction. Plenty of things happening out the front window, but nothing unusual. As he approaches the junction a cyclist can be glimpsed pulling up the left of the cab or he could overtake a cyclist on approach to the junction (or two videos covering the two situations). (on the edge of the video when things are happening up ahead hopefully distracting the viewer.

Cyclist quickly disappears into the blind spot. Road ahead clears and the HGV starts to turn left. In the distance someone starts running towards the HGV running across its path waving their arms frantically. Fade away to the question, 'So did you see anything unusual?'

Fade again, to one possible answer, 'Was it the person running toward the HGV?'

Fade again to the correct answer, ' Or was it the cyclist being crushed to death under the HGV?'

Fade to footage from a road view, of what happened, replacing cyclist with fake cyclist gong under the wheels and crushing a bike (surely someone would have a bike we could borrow...um er break!)

Fade to some form of summary i.e. 'Cyclists don't undertake HGVs, Drivers keep an eye out for cyclists'


... or something along those lines.

Some of this might be difficult to film and do. I don't know. It may be possible to fake some of it etc, so advice would on this would be great.

Somewhere there could also be a caption saying 'based on real events'

So what do you think?


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## magnatom (1 Jul 2009)

User1314 said:


> Draw lots, I reckon. Hehehe.
> 
> I like the idea of just tying a leaflet to each bike. (With maybe a Cyclechat logo  )



Or if we have a video, you could give out a CD or even a usb key with every bike sold that would have the video and some other information on it...


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## Twanger (1 Jul 2009)

*Anyone remember this?*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYP1j35UhY8


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## Twanger (1 Jul 2009)

Or this....
View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S517s_edgHM&NR=1


Dammit, I am old.

I think the point of these is that the metaphors (ice cream - peach) are more powerful than a "real accident" would be.


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## Crankarm (2 Jul 2009)

magnatom said:


> Ha! Read my posts ya muppet!  You will actually find that I would happily have someone female and pretty heading this campaign. I'm no media expert, but having someone who comes across well and is a representative of the group of people this needs to be most aimed at (female cyclists). As well as that, a pretty female face would appeal to the almost exclusively male skip/lorry drivers.
> 
> I'll quite happily slink into the background.



How about approaching Vicky P to present or introduce? The girls would take notice because she is an Olympic gold winning girl cyclist and the boys would take notice of her because she is a sexy girl . She could wear her GB kit or the famous dress she posed in with her bike  .

If you want media contacts how about emailing John Snow (cyclist) at C4 news to see if he can suggest anything in terms of assistance or point you in the right direction or to some one else at C4 who might be able to help. Who knows they might even do a short feature in their slot after 7:30pm and show your HGV warning video. It might get the publicity ball rolling. Just a suggestion.

Can't you get a recovered stolen bike from the police as they auction them off every now and again, rather than sacrifice some one's current pride and joy. Also regarding Evans you could contact their Head/Press Office to see if they would be prepared to assist in any way as they do sell an awful lot of bikes and organise sportives as well. May be they would be prepared to assist provide some funding in exchange for being able to display their name in the credits or conveniently placed in the vid. Perhaps they could provide each of their customers (I'm one) and new bike purchasers with the warning leaflet on HGVs when they make their bike purchase or when they mail out there catalogue or send promotional stuff?

RospA would be good for adding finishing touches or final edits to the video as they will surely spot any safety areas that you may have overlooked that might get you sued if a cyclist were subsequently injured following the advice in your video or leaflet.

Also might be an idea to contact the Road Haulage Association. Can't think why they would not want to be involved and TfL. These are all bodies who could have a valuable input and crucially could offer funding for a really professionally produced short filum.

Just thought whether a few cyclists from Team GB would be prepared to get involved not just VP say Chris Hoy, Bradley Wiggins, Rebecca Romero, Lizzy Armitage, Cav........ as IMHO this issue needs really needs the best publicity that can be got.

Just a few thoughts.


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## Jake (2 Jul 2009)

good ideas Auric Goldfinger


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## Jake (2 Jul 2009)

Twanger said:


> Or this....
> View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S517s_edgHM&NR=1
> 
> 
> ...





hmm, well who speakers Queens English here, with that particular tone. I say old chap, don't cycle on the left of that lorry, or you will come a cropper. There's a good chap.


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## Twanger (2 Jul 2009)

Jake said:


> hmm, well who speakers Queens English here, with that particular tone. I say old chap, don't cycle on the left of that lorry, or you will come a cropper. There's a good chap.



I think the point of these is that the metaphors (ice cream - peach) are more powerful than a "real accident" would be.


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## magnatom (2 Jul 2009)

Oh yes good ideas crankarm, but before we start approaching anyone I think we need a basic idea of what we are going to do first.

So any comments on my suggestion. If you think it is rubbish feel free to say so, writing stories for short films is not my day job!


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## magnatom (2 Jul 2009)

What's happened? Are folk scared of insulting the great Magnatom! 

Come on guys we won't get a video if we don't criticise ideas and generate new ones. 

7 deaths in London this year so far. Probably a whole lot more outside, and one that I passed shortly after it happened in Glasgow. 

There but for the grace of God....


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## grhm (2 Jul 2009)

Ok. I'm loath to critise your storyboard too much - as I'm not sure I can do any better. And its easy to critise but not so easy to be constructive. But...

It might be a bit too long - people lose interest/tune out if an ad is too long/boring. Maybe it's a good extended variant, but it might need a shorter/snappier variant.

However, I like that it could vaguely parallel that motorbike ad on the TV at the moment - you know the one where driver pulls out of T junction and motorcyclist smashes into the side with a tagline/slogan something like "How close has the bike got to be before you see it?".

The m/bike ad is short, sharp and to the point.

Maybe "How close has a lorry got to get before you decide not to undertake?" could be a slogan for a similar style ad.


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## magnatom (2 Jul 2009)

Criticism is good. 

I agree that as it stands it is probably too long (although the moonwalking bear one is probably quite long. It was just a first stab, so if anyone has any ideas how it could be made punchier, or if we should be taking a different approach, speak up.

I suppose it could be made shorter, by just cutting to pictures of a bike etc under the lorry after we fade away from the POV view. 

How about a punch line: Easy to miss, easy to hit...or something like that?


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## CopperBrompton (2 Jul 2009)

To maximise the number of people watching it, we need to get this to 30 seconds (there's a reason ads aren't generally longer than this, and it's not just cost).

The main problem with the suggested storyboard is that it starts from the truck driver's perspective, and we're mostly aiming this at cyclists.

I'd suggest:

2-sec video clip of cyclist on wide, empty road
Caption: Plenty of room

2-sec video clip of cyclist taking primary in left-hand filter lane, cars in straight-ahead lane to right
Caption: Plenty of room

2-second video clip of cyclist taking primary in straight-ahead lane, cars in left filter-lane to right
Caption: Plenty of room

Still photo of lorry at lights, wide gap to its left, cyclist heading for gap
Caption: Plenty of room?

2-sec video clip of cyclist cycling up the left of the lorry and stopping at the lights

In-cab shot of driver checking wing mirror and looking above the cyclist, no cyclist visible

In-cab shot of driver applying left-hand indicator

In-cab shot of driver pulling away and turning left

In-cab shot of wing mirror, showing lorry centimetres from railings, but still looking above the height of the cyclist

Freeze video

Cut to still of mangled bike beneath wheels
Cut to still of crushed helmet
Cut to still of other debris

Caption: Cyclists: Don't undertake large vehicles
Caption: Lorry drivers: Look again for cyclists

Video of sheet over body under lorry

Fade out


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## magnatom (2 Jul 2009)

Aha, someone who knows what they are talking about! 

I like it. The only thing I would add to that, would be just before we freeze the video, it would be good to have an indication of a little 'bump' within the cab. This would illustrate how little impact the cyclist has on the HGV and provide a reference to the moment the cyclist is killed. 

Of course I'm no expert....


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## Jake (2 Jul 2009)

so Mag' is project manager. We have one day to do this task before the meeting in the boardroom. I suggest someone dances in their pants! sorry could not resist. It is hard to organise on here. Would be so much easier if everyone was in town and could sit around a table brainstorming ideas of hard hiting short and punchy captions, then get to work on a storyboard while other creatives work on the poster.


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## magnatom (2 Jul 2009)

Jake said:


> so Mag' is project manager. We have one day to do this task before the meeting in the boardroom. I suggest someone dances in their pants! sorry could not resist. It is hard to organise on here. Would be so much easier if everyone was in town and could sit around a table brainstorming ideas of hard hiting short and punchy captions, then get to work on a storyboard while other creatives work on the poster.



Ha! I know my limitations. I'll certainly try and keep the wheels rolling. I'm good at ideas and motivation, not so good on details and follow through, although I am keen to see this to the end.

You are certainly right about it being a little more difficult to organise here, that's why I suggested maybe a separate little section in CC if that was possible to help keep it together but in different threads. 

Mods would this be possible? It needn't be permanent.


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## grhm (2 Jul 2009)

I think Ben's idea is good.



Ben Lovejoy said:


> Cut to still of mangled bike beneath wheels
> Cut to still of crushed helmet
> Cut to still of other debris



Not sure how best to do these shots - might be able to use actual shot like those on http://crapwalthamforest.blogspot.co...st-killed.html (shamelessly nicked from JtM's post in Left Turning Lorries - Write to your MP thread)

But we'd need to ensure we shock people into thought and just shock them with bad taste.


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## scouserinlondon (2 Jul 2009)

Ben Lovejoy said:


> To maximise the number of people watching it, we need to get this to 30 seconds (there's a reason ads aren't generally longer than this, and it's not just cost).
> 
> The main problem with the suggested storyboard is that it starts from the truck driver's perspective, and we're mostly aiming this at cyclists.
> 
> ...



completely agree with this, 30 seconds max to get the viral element. we should also have a call to action at the end of the video.

That could be a simple 'share' button so people can post to youtube or tweet a link, or it could be a campaign image that people can turn into their profile picture etc.


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## goo_mason (2 Jul 2009)

scouserinlondon said:


> completely agree with this, 30 seconds max to get the viral element. we should also have a call to action at the end of the video.
> 
> That could be a simple 'share' button so people can post to youtube or tweet a link, or it could be a campaign image that people can turn into their profile picture etc.




You could continue the 'Plenty of room' theme with the empty hole dug at a grave, or lots of empty & open doors on the body fridge in the mortuary, or something along those lines with 'Plenty of room' as the caption.


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## Jake (2 Jul 2009)

ooooo spooky and great idea. yes with the question/mark over the grave.


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## CotterPin (2 Jul 2009)

As I was grumbling elsewhere that we should do some campaigning, I am all for this and willing to help, although all I can do is offer an extra pair of hands.

I actually think there is some mileage in including Bigtwin's idea;



Bigtwin said:


> Then you'd be be better off standing at the side of the road and talking to people actually in the situation. That's bang for your buck.



Maybe if we have a launch date for the video we could have enough of us out in locations which we know are notorious for this issue, handing out flyers to cyclists and maybe with posters on lamp posts, etc approaching the area?


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## ttcycle (2 Jul 2009)

Hey

not had time to read through this properly as hectic at work

got some feedback re stickers on the back of buses from a guy who works closely with bus workers- basically if we go legitimately and contact TfL - for London buses anyway it would most likely be refused- the best port of call in that case is to have a blanket guerilla stick a thon on as many backs of buses as possible and this would only work if it covered a large number of buses (so practically would need large number of willing people to stick onto buses) as if there are too many stickers to remove they may keep them on there -plus at that point it would be more likely and realistic to get TfL backing. 

Writing to MP - yes but there is also concerted action we can take aside from this.

I'm finding out costs of stickers dependent on sizing.

Questions to think about:

Target audience - cyclists (all types) and HGV drivers

What do you want to achieve apart from the blindingly obvious of less/no deaths - ie mirrors fitted on all HGV's that show the blind spot, better provision for road design..we need to think about this so that it is more focused; we know what pressure we need to put and in what direction and to what outcome. Once we know what we're working towards we can then plan backwards with solid goals and plans

Plus, in relation to stickers - this is fine for one element of a campaign but it needs some interaction with people - you know the human touch. As for a person to front the campaign - doesn't seem necessary at this stage =- we're not looking for celebrity 5 minutes of fame but to raise awareness and put pressure in the big picture to create change.

Anyway better get back to work!


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## scouserinlondon (2 Jul 2009)

As well as the editor of a trucking magazine a mate of mine is a PR for TFL, busses specifically, I can have a word.

I'm well connected me


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## magnatom (2 Jul 2009)

For one guerrilla tactic, how about placing stickers on bike stands, especially the busy ones, saying 'Plenty of room here?' with a web site address to go to, carrying on the theme of the videos.

In fact I am sure we could find plenty of good places to place 'Plenty of room here?' stickers.


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## ttcycle (2 Jul 2009)

hi magnatom,

depends on what furniture is already on said bike stand. I know down here in London there is so much crap on them it might not be taken notice of.

Seems there needs to be several streams ...

1. guerilla tactics- stickers/flyering on bikes
2. chatting/interacting with cyclists and HGV drivers
3. Linking in with other campaign groups
4. Video -viral spreading - I have a filmmaker friend -in fact two- either of them may be interested. Will contact them
5.writing to MPs - maybe longer term aim of better provisions and design of roads etc
6. Linking with media - PR TfL; Broadsheets/dailies/news etc

but all the above and other campaign stuff is meaningless unless we have an idea of what we want to achieve.

Don't worry Magnatom - I'm good at the details


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## CopperBrompton (2 Jul 2009)

> The only thing I would add to that, would be just before we freeze the video, it would be good to have an indication of a little 'bump' within the cab.


Yep, and maybe a faint crushing metal sound behind the loud truck engine noise.

The grave/mortuary idea is an interesting continuation of the theme, but for me the crushed bike/etc images would be more powerful and thus better to end on.


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## magnatom (2 Jul 2009)

Fair enough about the stickers, but cyclists might notice something that has been looped around their bike...


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## magnatom (2 Jul 2009)

Yes we will need to think more of the focus, but I do like the campaign slogan of Plenty of Room Here?

What do others think?


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## jonesy (2 Jul 2009)

magnatom said:


> Yes we will need to think more of the focus, but I do like the campaign slogan of Plenty of Room Here?
> 
> What do others think?



I'd be worried that using a question (to which the answer is No!) as a slogan risks sending a confusing message. Fine as the caption for the relevant bit of the film when you've got the context, but not as a message for the campaign.


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## Jake (2 Jul 2009)

"Is it safe to...?"


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## fossyant (2 Jul 2009)

Some great ideas. I've put up a couple of 'posters' in our shed - have one for another parking area I use too.


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## Crankarm (3 Jul 2009)

magnatom said:


> Yes we will need to think more of the focus, but I do like the campaign slogan of Plenty of Room Here?
> 
> What do others think?



How about a Tee shirt or logo "Don't F*ck with the Truck" in large bold text with a cartoon picture of a mangled bike and adjacent truck below or just "RIP" below instead of pics. Brutal but to the point.


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## Arch (3 Jul 2009)

> The only thing I would add to that, would be just before we freeze the video, it would be good to have an indication of a little 'bump' within the cab..



Not sure. Part of the point is that a driver would probably be oblivious... Although I've never driven a truck over a bike, I wonder how different it would be to the average pot holed road...

Only just caught up with this thread, so I'll offer any help I can...


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## sheddy (3 Jul 2009)

I've come to this late but my gut feeling that some humour is essential for a youtube type campaign to get forwarded around the net

Do we know any cycling comedians who could write some patter and do the voiceover (like Dave Gorman) ?

At the risk of being ostracized, would truckers take more notice of a safety campaign if the cyclist shown in the video was a scantily dressed woman ?

(or even nude, ie ride down the LHS and you are completely unprotected!)


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## Arch (3 Jul 2009)

Humour? Hard to see it fitting with the subject, it would have to be very clever stuff.

Horror/shock is the other way to go, and maybe more appropriate. I saw a girl knocked down, when I was about 8, and to this day I'm a very careful crosser of roads. And there was a railway safety film that featured a boy getting a foot cut off, that is imprinted on my memory. No actual gore, but very obvious run up and consequences.

I wonder too, about kids. Get the message across early. But I'm thinking some sort of cartoon with an elephant treading on a mouse, and animation is another story.


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## Jim_Noir (3 Jul 2009)

I'd help out with it. Myself and a few friends do little home movies (not the stuff your dirty minds are thinking) so would be a good project. And may I suggest maybe talking to or doing something with Critical mass, maybe a bit controversial but a good source of publicity and a way to flyer other cyclists 

My brother-in-law was an HGV driver, he's not long got into cycling and is s keen motorbiker too... all we need is a truck... there is a guy in my local boozer who carrys a screwdriver for such times  Now we need a stunt man (think I can easy get this or do it myself) and a old bike... and a closed road!


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## sheddy (3 Jul 2009)

Yes it will be hard, but not impossible for the CC Clan. See this - http://www.rubberductions.com/filmography/hepatitis_animation

'Overtake on the right and survive' (cheering, cannons, 1812 overture)

'Undertake on the left is suicide' (wheels under truck, crash noises and funeral march)


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## sheddy (3 Jul 2009)

'I am the spirit of dark and lonely water' 1973 - 
View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GawMISYzyjs


and this classic - Joe and Petunia

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBc02FPSvXc&feature=related


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## magnatom (3 Jul 2009)

Hi Guys,

Looking good. Keep the thoughts coming. 

We've got some friends over from Ireland at the moment, so I haven't had any time to work on this/ follow it up. But I am very keen to push this forward. I have no specific desire for the filming to be in Glasgow, but it certainly could be here. However, if more of the talent is in London then that might be the way to go. Who knows if I speak nicely to the wife I could maybe even pop down.
A special thanks to Spiecher who has done some behind the scenes work on this. I am sure working together we can get something positive out of this.

More soon...


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## ttcycle (3 Jul 2009)

Hi all

Been hectically busy the last few days - will try and go through the posts to tie up themes etc so we can see where we're heading and get things more organised.

The Kiwicycles graphic on the other post is a good start - easy graphic and memorable but Ben lovejoy is right about the copyright.

Will try and put some time aside to trawl through over the weekend.

Magnatom - thanks for getting the ball rolling.


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## Speicher (3 Jul 2009)

The "behind the scenes" work that I have been doing was a summary of all the kind offers of assistance that people made. Magnatom had said he would like a summary, as he was busy at work at the time. 

For instance photographs, video production, contact with various organisations. Also those who would like to help, but are not sure how, at this point. 

This summary has now been sent to Magnatom. I only mention this so that no-one duplicates that, (unless they want to). I am good at typing and word-processing, but the artistic side of things would be beyond me.


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## ttcycle (3 Jul 2009)

cool thanks for that speicher - saves me doing the same again!

I'll have a proper read through over the weekend and get some thoughts down.


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## Arch (4 Jul 2009)

I had an idea last night, for a comedy aspect (I know we have some good ideas already, but just to add to the mix...)

This needs a bit of setting up, and either some artistic or possibly flower arranging talent.

You set up your bike and dummy, but the dummy is made of fruit. Stay with me. Either literally all made or fruit, or with bananas stapled to it or something, or at the least has a head made of a watermelon. (In a helmet, if you like)

Lorry drives over dummy, flattening 'head'.

Punchline: "Mixing with lorries. Don't get juiced!"

It's a thought, please play with it if you wish...

I was also thinking, if we got together a concerted poster campaign, how many places and people we could potentially cover. I have a workplace, and a Uni, just from 'personal' contact. That personal bit might be the thing that gets us space, as opposed to a campaign handed down from above, as it were. We can bill ourselves as a group of concerned individuals, which perhaps stops us individually being viewed as evangelical nutters...


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## magnatom (4 Jul 2009)

I like it Arch.  However, my own opinion is that it should stress the case in a shocking (not too shocking) way. Make people stop and think. Of course we could work up a couple of ideas and vote on the best.


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## buggi (4 Jul 2009)

i like it too Arch. haven't read all the replies but something like this on youtube could take off and get a bit of initial publicity. you never know, something like a talk show may pick it up, they always pick things up.


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## gemsno4 (4 Jul 2009)

Haven't had chance to read through all the pages but wasn't there a woman on here a couple of months back who had been hit by a truck in exactly this situation? If she was willing to get involved that could have a massive impact - i.e look what happened to me. Although I would understand if she never wanted to think about it again. Can't find the thread though


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## jonesy (4 Jul 2009)

magnatom said:


> I like it Arch.  However, my own opinion is that it should stress the case in a shocking (not too shocking) way. Make people stop and think. Of course we could work up a couple of ideas and vote on the best.



I can see why using comedy has been suggested, but I would be worried that there is a risk of not getting it quite right, and the result being seen as inappropriate or insensitive. I'm partly thinking of 'pants man' here, but also the very silly DfT helmet promotions, with X-rays of children's heads, and some sort of game involving hitting things on the head with a stick... these were also intended to be humorous to appeal to children, but they got it badly wrong. I'm not saying it can't be done using humour, but it greatly raises the difficulty involved it getting it right. This is a serious subject with serious messages that it is vitally important are not misunderstood. I think you've got some great ideas here for doing it straight and to be honest I think that's the safest approach.


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## ttcycle (5 Jul 2009)

Ok

I've still not had a chance to read through all of the posts in depth - have read Speicher's summary (thank you again) there seems like there are several ideas and several aims:

May it be useful to put a poll on here to see what people want to achieve - I know that the obivous one is to educate other cyclists and HGV drivers but there may be other things that can be achieved.

How about setting up a poll that links with this page?

Firstly we do need to know what angle we're coming from and also what we want to achieve - then we can actually get down to details etc otherwise we may just keep drifting and coming up with ideas but not actually do anything solid. Once the above is clear than deadlines and goals need to be set to achieve certain tasks to get this off the ground.

Feedback appreciated!


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## CopperBrompton (5 Jul 2009)

Since 'Time for action' suggests we should have some, that strikes me as a good idea. I've created polls for medium and style to kick things off.


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## jonesy (5 Jul 2009)

Ben Lovejoy said:


> Since 'Time for action' suggests we should have some, that strikes me as a good idea. I've created polls for medium and style to kick things off.



Ben, you had earlier given a very clear idea of how it should be done, which gave the impression you have experience of doing this sort of thing, so what's your view on the comedy vs hard hitting approaches?


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## Speicher (5 Jul 2009)

Should I try and post my summary on here? so people can have a look at what has been offered?


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## summerdays (5 Jul 2009)

I think if you got the comedy element right it would have more chance of going viral and maybe reaching the people who don't read safety information such as Cyclecraft. Though I imagine it must be very hard to get the message in as well as the comedy.


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## magnatom (5 Jul 2009)

I'll try and explain my angle on this.

I've been commuting for 4 years now and in that time have had my fair share of 'run ins' on the road as my videos testify. I'll certainly keep producing the videos. However, I was getting sick of hearing of the increasing numbers of deaths when cyclists and HGVs mixed at junctions. One had happened on my commute in Glasgow earlier this year and I passed a little while after it had happened. I also had one incident (camera not working at that point) where a skip lorry cut a corner in front of me and nearly had me under it's wheels. Very scary. 

All of these deaths were preventable.

Having some experience with video and the media I stumbled onto the idea of producing a video. Not a video produced for cyclists/HGV drivers by Rospa/CTC etc, but one produced for cyclists/HGV drivers by cyclists/HGV drivers. My thoughts were that this was the sort of video that if produced correctly and aimed correctly could spark the interest of the national media, hopefully highlighting this issue nationally (this type of incident certainly happens outside London, and it would be a shame if it became too London centric). 

Personally I don't think anything would highligh this issue as well as a well made video, i.e. somehow actual show a 'cyclist' going into the abyss and not coming out the other side. Show how easily it can happen, and how easy it could be for a driver, not paying attention (yes it does happen) to end the life of a cyclist.

When I think back to safety campaigns in the past, i.e. the ones I remember, it is those with stricking videos that stick in your mind, i.e. AIDS (gravestones), drink driving (crash scenes). So that is why I think a video could make the biggest impact.

I absolutely agree with the use of other media but I think a video along the lines of what Ben has suggested with cards and posters along with that are the way to go.


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## magnatom (5 Jul 2009)

Speicher said:


> Should I try and post my summary on here? so people can have a look at what has been offered?




Yes, I think that would be a good idea.


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## CopperBrompton (5 Jul 2009)

Speicher said:


> Should I try and post my summary on here? so people can have a look at what has been offered?


That would be really useful, thanks


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## CopperBrompton (5 Jul 2009)

jonesy said:


> Ben, you had earlier given a very clear idea of how it should be done, which gave the impression you have experience of doing this sort of thing, so what's your view on the comedy vs hard hitting approaches?


I don't have experience of video production, but I have worked in journalism and marketing.

My personal view is that hard-hitting is more likely to get the message across in a way that sticks, and also that comedy is very, very easy to get wrong.


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## Speicher (5 Jul 2009)

OFFERS OF HELP FROM FORUM MEMBERS

*ttcycle* 
She has experience with community campaigns. Also has a broad sheet contact, and has two film-maker friends - she will contact them.

*Magnatom* 
knows a CEO of an Ad Agency
　
*scouserinlondon* 
He is in web marketing. Used to work for a trucking magazine. Still has contact with the editor and will call him, when there is a "clear campaign and idea". He is also happy to help with any promotion stuff you need to do, from SEO and PPC campaigns to any website, to laminating and flyering. 
　
*Ben Lovejoy *
www.photographybybenlovejoy.com has offered his skills in still photography. He can also drive a 7.5 ton truck.
　
*Plax* 
has offered to help with campaigning 
　
*Kaipath* 
has shot videos before, he gives a link to one of them - I tried to copy the link, but it would not work on my computer. He says it is NSFW.
　
*karlos_the_jackal* 
(www.myolondon.com) He has offered advertising skills which includes clean graffiti, I think this means it washes off.
　
*Jake*
He edits videos, makes websites. He has got a film crew, (but they usually film people with not much on). 
　
*GordyFaeEdinburgh*
He would be happy to host the website. He would also be able to help put a web-site together.
　
The following have offered to help but not sure how they can help
Davywalnuts
Cotterpin
wesa
semislickstick
Arch 
Jim Noir (says he can do home movies)
upsidedown


I tried to be very accurate with this, but if you notice any errors, please pm me, and I will edit it accordingly.


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## ttcycle (5 Jul 2009)

I'll pip it up here again - thanks Ben L for the two polls; in terms of medium; there's no harm in using several different approaches to make the message/campaign stronger.

I also agree that it shouldn't be a London centric thing.


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## sheddy (6 Jul 2009)

Possibly the wrong style for a road safety campaign (from BMW MINI)

HGV PULLS UP NEXT TO BICYCLE
CYCLIST KILLED AS HGV TURNS LEFT
THE END

ITS A SILLY ADVENTURE
ww.sillyadventure.co.uk



BICYCLE RIDES DOWN THE SIDE OF HGV
CYCLIST KILLED AS HGV TURNS LEFT
THE END

ITS A SILLY ADVENTURE
ww.sillyadventure.co.uk

BTW would the CTC assist with web hosting and film production costs ?


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## scouserinlondon (6 Jul 2009)

Speicher said:


> OFFERS OF HELP FROM FORUM MEMBERS
> 
> *ttcycle*
> She has experience with community campaigns. Also has a broad sheet contact, and has two film-maker friends - she will contact them.
> ...



I'm also happy to help with any promotion stuff you need me to do, from SEO and PPC campaigns to any website, to laminating and flyering.

Last Monday really upset me and I want to do my bit!


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## magnatom (6 Jul 2009)

Good man!  (although you might need to explain to me what SEO and PPC means!)


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## magnatom (6 Jul 2009)

So, assuming that we will be doing a video, is everyone happy with Ben's Plenty of room idea? If we agree on this then any other media (cards, posters) could be on a related theme.

We will also need to think about contacting people who could help, i.e. truck drivers (our trucking contacts), someone who can film it/produce/edit it. 

We would also need a location. Should this be somewhere busy where we film during normal traffic (need police, council help? Possibly difficult to do) or should we go for a quiet location and provide the background (i.e. provide our own cars, pedestrians etc, i.e. a cast of CC!). 

I assume we would also need props, i.e. bike to crush etc.

I'm not the right person to do this, but I assume someone can come up with a list of who, what we need to make this happen?


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## scouserinlondon (6 Jul 2009)

magnatom said:


> Good man!  (although you might need to explain to me what SEO and PPC means!)


Search engine traffic.

I think we could make a really big noise about this online.


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## magnatom (6 Jul 2009)

scouserinlondon said:


> Search engine traffic.
> 
> I think we could make a really big noise about this online.



Aha! Excellent!


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## CopperBrompton (6 Jul 2009)

magnatom said:


> a quiet location and provide the background (i.e. provide our own cars, pedestrians etc, i.e. a cast of CC!).


I think that would be the only way to do it, on a Sunday. With the right camera angles, we'd only need a few cars, so I'm sure we could come up with those between us.


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## scouserinlondon (6 Jul 2009)

Ben Lovejoy said:


> I think that would be the only way to do it, on a Sunday. With the right camera angles, we'd only need a few cars, so I'm sure we could come up with those between us.




Have we thought about access to an HGV and driver?


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## CopperBrompton (6 Jul 2009)

I think we have several HGV drivers here. Maybe ask whether their companies would allow the use of a truck in return for a credit? Would be good PR for the company.

If all else fails, I can drive a 7.5-tonne truck, so we could rent one for a day if a few of us chipped in.


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## magnatom (6 Jul 2009)

It would be nice to get a truck driver via either a truck forum or a truck magazine etc, i.e. to get some input to this from the HGV community. I am always wary that if we produce this as cyclists, then it comes across as preaching. If we get the HGV community involved then it becomes a collaboration. 

Any suggestions for contacts?


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## CopperBrompton (6 Jul 2009)

Good point


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## Jake (6 Jul 2009)

It would have to be done on private land too I would have thought. I know we have problems now and again when we try to film outside, a lot of places are private property, ie we cant film at canary wharf without permission, plus you would have to close a road off. If you can win support from a truck company, then we could use their land.


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## CopperBrompton (6 Jul 2009)

I think for realism (and thus impact) it needs a real junction with traffic lights, railings, lane-markings, etc.

I don't think it would be too difficult to get permission to do this on a Sunday.


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## magnatom (6 Jul 2009)

Just one thought. Railings are obviously a contributer in these incidents, but I don't think we should focus too much on them, as undercutting an HGV at any junction could quite easily lead to getting caught under the wheels. 

I'm just concerned that we could give the false impression that this only happens where there is a barrier.


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## Speicher (6 Jul 2009)

scouserinlondon said:


> I'm also happy to help with any promotion stuff you need me to do, from SEO and PPC campaigns to any website, to laminating and flyering.



This has now been added to the Summary. Thank you Scouser


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## Arch (6 Jul 2009)

Having suggested a comedy idea, I do think that hard hitting is probably easier to get right.

+1 for collaboration with HGV drivers. Although I think this is maybe one case where, whether we like it or not, the very best solution is simply to stay the heck out of the way of trucks. I don't mean drivers shouldn't have to look out, but at the end of the day, many many cyclists can chose just not to be in that position. 

I know there is stil the case of lorries pulling alongside - really if a driver has overtaken a cyclist and forgotten they are there, no amount of exhortation to look more carefully is going to make them better drivers. Lets concentrate on the message we can do most good with.. Does that make sense?


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## CotterPin (6 Jul 2009)

I just posted on the poll associated with this thread that I think handing out cards at the roadside might be highly effective. If this is something that it is decided to go with, I am happy to help co-ordinate it. 

I would envisage the tasks being getting volunteers to commit to at least one event (possibly tied with launch of video?), chivvying a few other volunteers (I am involved with my local LCC group so could possibly get some additional help there) so that we can as broad a spread across the country and liasing with the producer of the cards and other publicity material to ensure it is with the volunteers in time.


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## Arch (6 Jul 2009)

I don't like to be a wet blanket, but I'm not sure about handing stuff out roadside for a few reasons.

a) possible byelaws about such activity?
:troll: litter, when people just drop the card in the gutter
c) people being distracted by reading the card as they ride off...

Ok if you can actually have a real conversation about it, assuming someone has the time - and most of us I think, when approached by someone in the street, tend to duck our heads and not stop...

The idea of cards is a good one though, and there might be plenty of outlets for them - shops (not just bike shops, any local shop happy to have a few on the counter. Put up as advertsising in newsagents windows (that has a cost, obviously), or in supermarket customer advert holders.


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## CotterPin (6 Jul 2009)

Arch said:


> I don't like to be a wet blanket, but I'm not sure about handing stuff out roadside for a few reasons.
> 
> a) possible byelaws about such activity?
> :troll: litter, when people just drop the card in the gutter
> ...



I know what you mean, Arch, but I think that it does need to be something "in your face" and I think the best way of doing this is out on the streets. The video and leaflets dispensed in various places can be ignored, but someone handing out leaflets with appropriate publicity (posters, etc) on nearby street furniture would be a hard-hitting way of getting the message across, and as I said, it would be good if it could be done in conjunction with the launch of the video (link to it on the cards, etc).

In response to your specific comments:

(a) If it is done on the public highway and you are not causing an obstruction then I don't think there is a problem. I have done this with ICAG (Islington Cyclists Action Group - the LCC group in Islington) and we have had no problems.

( We would need to ensure that any dropped in the immediate vicinity were picked up but I think if we made sure that we targetted people carefully and there is sufficient other publicity material to alert cyclists around then this is less of an issue.

(c) That might be an issue but again in our experience it hasn't tended to be.

Generally I would suggest that we target very specific areas where we are aware that this is an issue or a likelihood that cyclists could cut up the inside of large vehicles, and that the cards are handed out to the cyclists who look like they are about to cycle up the inside of large vehicles. I would suggest that the junctions chosen are light controlled and any card-handing out takes place when the lights are at red and to cyclists close to the kerb (the ones we want to target anywhere).

I have possibly got a very London viewpoint and I could see how it could work in my neck of the words (and, as mentioned, I have been involved in similar actions locally). The idea might not translate nationwide.

Anyway, it is an offer, if the consensus is we want to try this. If not, then I am happy to go with the consensus and help out in any other way I can - I can certainly make sure that any cards are distributed to bike shops, etc in my part of North London.


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## sheddy (7 Jul 2009)

Does the campaign have a name yet ? The ROSPA video had 'STAY SAFE, STAY BACK'
I wonder if the title should be self explanatory?


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## Arch (7 Jul 2009)

I was listening to Woman's Hour this morning, and they trailed the programme tomorrow which will include a piece on whether cycling is safe for women - I have to assume this is in light of the incident at the Oval and the like. I've emailed them this:

"Dear Woman’s Hour,

I heard today that you will be covering the issue of cycling safety for women tomorrow, and wanted to make an important point. I am a keen cyclist, who commutes by bike, and rides for leisure and fitness. I am also a member of an internet cycling forum, www.cyclechat.co.uk, and we have recently been prompted by the incident at the Oval, Kennington, to discuss methods of getting one very important point across to cyclists.

http://www.cyclechat.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=37713

A number of incidents recently have involved cyclists, often women, being crushed by left turning lorries. There is one simple message which must be put across and which might have saved some of these people, and might save some in the future. That message is, and I hope you will forgive me ‘shouting’ it.

NEVER CYCLE DOWN THE LEFT HAND SIDE OF A LONG VEHICLE IN A QUEUE OF TRAFFIC!

It is perfectly legal to filter down the left of traffic, but that does not always make it sensible. If you are riding down the side of a long vehicle you may well be in a mirror blind spot. I have driven 7.5 tonne vehicles, so I know how big the blind spots can be. If that vehicle moves off and turns left, or even moves over to the left, perhaps to avoid a right turning vehicle in front, a cyclist can be knocked under and run over, and you do not often walk away from an incident like that.

I learned this lesson when I was new to cycling and tried to undertake a bus which was turning left, at a corner with pedestrian railings. I was lucky and got away with twisted handlebars. Better to wait in the queue, for the sake of a few seconds off your journey possibly gained by getting to the front of a queue.

The benefits of cycling, in health terms, far outweigh the dangers, but too many people take to two wheels without thinking about how their riding methods affect their safety. If you can highlight one thing on your programme, make it the message about undertaking lorries. If you can highlight two things, please mention that training for adult cyclists is available – ask your local council for details. There is also an excellent book, called ‘Cyclecraft’ which explains how to use and judge the road. Finally, if people want specific advice, there are many forums like Cyclechat, where those of us with experience are only to willing to pass it on.

Sue Archer"


I know it only addresses the cyclist's side, but that is half the battle, and I'm not sure how many lorry drivers listen to Woman's Hour anyway....


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## magnatom (7 Jul 2009)

That's excellent Arch!  Let us know if you get a reply or if anything gets aired. 

Ididn't know you had an incident yourself. That sounds like it was a scary one!


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## Arch (7 Jul 2009)

magnatom said:


> That's excellent Arch!  Let us know if you get a reply or if anything gets aired.
> 
> Ididn't know you had an incident yourself. That sounds like it was a scary one!



It was a long time ago - nearly 10 years now, when I was only just in York, and learning about cycling (I could ride before, and did, but hadn't got the bug, so to speak.) Very stupidly, I tried to undertake a bus on a corner, in a slow moving queue. With pedestrian railings.

Luckily, all I had to do, after the bus had moved on, was straighten my handlebars, which caught in the railings and got nudged by the bus as it moved.

It was a classic stupid thing to do, but I simply didn't know better, or think about it properly. I wouldn't have said I was particularly dim, and I had my driving licence, and knew the green cross code. Probably exactly the same level of knowledge and experience as maybe 50% of those people out there who've only just started, or are only cycling because it's fine weather, or because they are having their annual health purge or whatever...


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## magnatom (7 Jul 2009)

Scary, but if you were willing, this could be a real life experience of a close call which could be useful in the campaign. Just a thought...


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## Arch (7 Jul 2009)

magnatom said:


> Scary, but if you were willing, this could be a real life experience of a close call which could be useful in the campaign. Just a thought...



I'm quite happy to talk/write about it - it's a good example of a generally intelligent (I hope!) person making a silly mistake - and luckily, getting away with it. I was lucky it was a bus, so my handlebar end just ran along the bodywork. If it had been a lorry....


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## Jake (7 Jul 2009)

Ben Lovejoy said:


> I think for realism (and thus impact) it needs a real junction with traffic lights, railings, lane-markings, etc.
> 
> I don't think it would be too difficult to get permission to do this on a Sunday.



i think it would be very hard to get permission on the roads, there would need to be all kinds of risk assesment forms filled out and inssurence.


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## CopperBrompton (7 Jul 2009)

No different to a fun-run, doing a photo-shoot or anything else. You need public liability cover and a permit and that's about it.


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## jonesy (7 Jul 2009)

Thought it might be helpful to dig out some relevant stats and links for background information.

Pedal cyclist casualties in road accidents: 2007
Road Accident Statistics Factsheet No. 4 – November 2008 


http://www.dft.gov.uk/adobepdf/162469/221412/221549/227755/328843/pedalcyclistfsheet07.pdf



> Vehicles involved.
> • 81 per cent of pedal cycle accidents involve a pedal cycle and a car. Such accidents account for 73 per cent of killed and seriously injured pedal cyclists, and 82 per cent of all pedal cyclist casualties.
> • Accidents between a pedal cycle and HGV were more likely to result in serious injury with 10 per cent of pedal cyclist casualties in these accidents being fatalities, compared with 1 per cent of all pedal cyclist casualties. *Nearly 1 in 4 pedal cyclists killed was in an accident with an HGV.*



Transport for London
Surface Transport
London Road Safety Unit
LAAU topic 2008-1
December 2008
Pedal cyclist collisions and casualties in Greater London

http://www.londonroadsafety.co.uk/www/downloads/publications/PC-Cas-Factsheet-Final-1986-2007.pdf



> 79% of P/C casualties were injured at or within 20m of a junction,
> 
> ...
> 
> ...





Information from RoSPA 

http://www.rospa.com/roadsafety/advice/cycling/info/cyclists_and_lorries_factsheet_0206.pdf



> In 2004, 367 collisions between HGVs and cyclists resulted in 22 riders being killed, 79 seriously injured and a further 262 injured. Although only 2% of cyclists casualties occurred in collisions with HGVs, this resulted in 22% of cyclist deaths.


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## magnatom (7 Jul 2009)

Thanks jonsey. These are the sorts of statistics that will find a place on the website.

So doesn no-one have any opinions of the name of the campaign etc?


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## sheddy (8 Jul 2009)

ww.donotridedownthelefthandside.co.uk 
just a bit too long !


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## wesa (8 Jul 2009)

I just found this on the CTC forum, I appologise if it has already been posted here.
http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=26755

I can't view the video at work but the title of the thread is 'Lorries & Cyclists: new Met video' so I am guessing it is something similar to what we are planning.

A direct link to the youtube video is 

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPkbNFt5NuY


edit - Sorry, just found the video discussed in campaigning & public policy, I'll leave the links for this discussion


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## CopperBrompton (8 Jul 2009)

It's addressing the general issue, but not the specific one. It's also (a) 3.5 minutes long and ( so boring it's in danger of causing brain-death in cyclists just from watching it. It's even worse than the RoSPA one!


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## ttcycle (8 Jul 2009)

hello - been really busy of late (fingers and too many pies comes to mind) CotterPin- I like the approach you mentioned and feel that there would need to be this element in mind for a campaign to work.

I'm currently sounding out costings of labels etc - for back of buses and also labels/flyers for bikes stands/talking to people etc - not having many people coming back but when I have a moment will call round some printers to get a general idea of pricing. Have contacted fillmmaker friends - not had a chance to check - what about other people on here re filming?

Haven't had a chance to listen to the radio 4 broadcast yet but from other posts on here it didn't seem to reflect very well on cyclists. 

I suppose the sunday filming with as much off our own backs as possible is the best way- if we need a large junction then we'd definetly need permission; Also agree that getting HGV people on board is essential to this working. Collaboration for sure.

Sorry, I am short on time - wanted to log in and just say that I'm still on board but have a lot on right now - will be away for some of next week so if i dissapear off the radar that's why- haha. Will contribute more when things ease off a bit - but yeah plenty of +1 and thumbs up from me for the ideas I mentioned above.


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## Arch (8 Jul 2009)

ttcycle said:


> Haven't had a chance to listen to the radio 4 broadcast yet but from other posts on here it didn't seem to reflect very well on cyclists.



I wouldn't say that - it was just a bit gutless I felt. (Needless to say they didn't refer to my email* or any others - they might come back to the subject though and read some emails, they sometimes do if they get enough). It was a wasted opportunity. We heard all about one mother's campaign (and good on her), to get safety features fitted to trucks, but the police rep who was saying that cyclists can also do their bit by understanding blind spots just didn't really get the point across, to my ears, anyway - and there was no specific mention of not cycling up the inside.

And there was no mention at all of getting adult cycle training, which was a real missed opportunity.

*I haven't had an auto 'thanks for your email' reply which you sometimes do, so it's possible it got lost in the ether...


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## magnatom (8 Jul 2009)

Well that just proves there is a need for a ground routes campaign. We know the issues, have the experience etc. Hopefully we can get it across. 

Thanks ttcycle for getting back to us. I know everyone is busy so any time people can give is very much appreciated.

So it appears that the the Plenty of Room theme is ok then, with only Mr P make (valid) points against it. As no one else is providing any other ideas I say we go with this. I also suggest that any video should be along the lines of what Ben suggested. If you disagree say now, as we need to move forward.

Ok.So we need to start thinking about the logistics of filming, including trying to firm up exactly what we want to film. Does anyone have the expertise to take what ben has suggested and produce a proceedure (or whatever it is called, script perhaps) for filming.

What about locations? Any suggestions, remembering that London is the likely location, depending on people available to film etc (although feel free to make other suggestions). 

Mr Paul has a poster. Does this fit, or can we make it fit with the campaign? If it doesn't fit that certainly doesn't mean that it isn't worth following it up of course.

I have had a few offers to host, but do we have a someone (or a few people) who are willing to look at creating the website itself? Obviously it would have the video on it, links to other material, information, statistics, photos of aftermaths etc. 

lets get the creative juices flowing!


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## CopperBrompton (8 Jul 2009)

It's easy enough to host the video on youtube and just embed it in our website, that way we don't have to worry about bandwidth.


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## Speicher (8 Jul 2009)

On the list of offers of help, back on page 17, Jake has said that he makes websites. 

I have been updating this list as more people have made offers. If anyone thinks I have missed them off, please pm me.


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## sheddy (8 Jul 2009)

nicked from the other thread - MIND THE GAP! 
ww.mindthegap.co.uk


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## classic33 (8 Jul 2009)

Not trying to steal anyones thunder, so I'll apologise now in case anyone thinks I am.

Sent this:
Cycle campaign, to try & get cyclists to appreciate the difficulties with driving lorries. More so when making left turns in an articulated lorry.
See: http://www.cyclechat.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=37713
The idea behind it is to try and cut down the nuber of injuries & fatalities to cyclists who fail to recognise the problems drivers face & travel up his left side when the lorry is turning left. For this manoeuvre they, lorries, require more room.

Would you, _company name_, be willing to get involved in this scheme. There are people involved in this that have a poster/sign similar in size to the hows my driving & the blind spot warning signs seen on many trailers these days.

The aim is to educate the people following the lorries about the dangers of travelling up the left side of lorries. Not about trying to put the blame on the shoulders of the drivers. 

Would you be willing to try & help. Even if it meant just having the sticker on the back of your lorries.

Got this response:

Thank you for your message. Dear Sean Thank you for contacting the _company name_, Service team about your Cycle campaign. I've forwarded your email to the relevant department here at _company name_, House and I'm sure if they're interested in taking part in this scheme that they'll be in touch with you direct. In the meantime, we wish you well with your campaign. 

Kind Regards 

_company name_ Service Team


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## ttcycle (8 Jul 2009)

Hi guys 

feedback re filmakers - both interested- have sent them a link to this so they can check it out - have asked them to look at the idea on here.

Magnatom; I agree with Mr P's observations- I also dont feel it is a big enough impact for a hard hitting campaign - not suggesting sloganism but a phrase that is more definitive; conversely I'm terrible at coming up with these things though!


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## magnatom (8 Jul 2009)

Speicher said:


> On the list of offers of help, back on page 17, Jake has said that he makes websites.
> 
> I have been updating this list as more people have made offers. If anyone thinks I have missed them off, please pm me.



Aye I did have a look at that, but I'm a bit shy at directly asking people!

Oh, ok then, Jake! Jake! You up for it?


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## magnatom (8 Jul 2009)

Classic33, that's excellent news! 

If you don't want to reveal the details of the company in public you could always PM me the details so I know who might be on board.


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## magnatom (8 Jul 2009)

ttcycle, that is excellent news. Thanks for chasing this up. Let us know what they think.

I'll get my thinking cap on for names campaign slogans to put up against Plenty of Room so we can have a vote. Anyone else have any ideas?


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## Speicher (8 Jul 2009)

I have put one possibility in a pm to you, but it is not my suggestion/idea, you might need to speak to the person who wrote it, details in the pm.


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## Speicher (8 Jul 2009)

Speicher said:


> OFFERS OF HELP FROM FORUM MEMBERS
> 
> *ttcycle*
> She has experience with community campaigns. Also has a broad sheet contact, and has two film-maker friends - she will contact them.
> ...



I have "bumped" the list of requests, so that it is not too many pages back. Please note we now have two very kind offers to construct a website.


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## Sh4rkyBloke (8 Jul 2009)

Only just seen this thread - count me in, please.

Unsure exactly how I can help, but the enthusiasm is there. Must get to bed now though.


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## magnatom (9 Jul 2009)

Ah yes I missed our GordyFaeEdinburgh who is also willing to do some web work. Are you two guys (Jake and GFE) still up for it?


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## magnatom (9 Jul 2009)

Sh4rkyBloke said:


> Only just seen this thread - count me in, please.
> 
> Unsure exactly how I can help, but the enthusiasm is there. Must get to bed now though.




Good man. You can be the expert on zig zag overtakes...


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## Sh4rkyBloke (9 Jul 2009)

magnatom said:


> Good man. You can be the expert on zig zag overtakes...


 Thanks.


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## Sh4rkyBloke (9 Jul 2009)

Working on Ben's excellent idea I have thrown together a quick (30 sec) video cobbled from bits of my 2 days commuting with a camera (I know, such a huge resource of film to work with!!)...

One thing I have to say is that it's damned difficult to work within 30 seconds!! 

The Bus needs to be replaced by some relevant HGV footage, and the other stuff doesn't accurately reflect the ideas Ben suggested (left hand lane with traffic on right, right hand lane with traffic on left etc.) but it gives an idea of how it might work/look and some clue as to how easy or hard it may be to get the 'correct' footage.

I find it easier to work with something 'real' rather than paper with words.

So, may I present a "3C Group" (Cycle Chat Campaigners Group) draft production of the HGV Awareness/Undertake -> Undertakers/"Be patient, not a patient" message.

Here.


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## Speicher (9 Jul 2009)

That's very good, seeing as you "threw" it together. I agree thirty seconds seems a bit short. My brain cannot register the stills of the accident sufficiently. 

That's the first time I have seen the other two Campaign names, Undertake or Patient. Have I missed them elsewhere?


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## Sh4rkyBloke (9 Jul 2009)

Speicher said:


> That's very good, seeing as you "threw" it together. I agree thirty seconds seems a bit short. My brain cannot register the stills of the accident sufficiently.
> 
> *That's the first time I have seen the other two Campaign names, Undertake or Patient*. Have I missed them elsewhere?


Ooops, didn't realise there was an "official" title for it, I just put something to try and describe what it was (must really go back and read the whole thread properly it seems!! ). Sorry!


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## magnatom (9 Jul 2009)

Well done Sharky! Very good! 

I think you've made it more difficult for yourself by fading to black for the words, i.e. they could appear with the moving picture (contrasting colour of course). Also I wonder if the addition of some graphics might highlight the 'room' we are talking about. 

Also I wonder if we only need one really striking picture which starts off wide and focuses in on something personal from the cyclist, i.e. bring in the human angle and leave that as the last lasting image.

Of course I'm no expert at this and any video experts opinions would be welcome.


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## magnatom (9 Jul 2009)

I know a couple of people have made the point that Plenty of Room is a little detached from the issue, i.e. it doesn't make you think of cyclists and HGVs. Speicher made the point to me via PM that we could possibly make the oo in room bicycle wheels, and have a bike above it.

I also wondered if you could somehow make the M look like an HGV, so that as part of the slogan you could have a bike approaching an HGV (if you had a question mark after that it could be the HGV cab).

Again, I stray into areas that I have no skills in (any graphic artists out there?) and yes some may think this is a daft idea, but it is just an idea....what do you think?


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## Sh4rkyBloke (9 Jul 2009)

magnatom said:


> Well done Sharky! Very good!
> 
> *I think you've made it more difficult for yourself by fading to black for the words, i.e. they could appear with the moving picture (contrasting colour of course).* Also I wonder if the addition of some graphics might highlight the 'room' we are talking about.
> 
> ...


I did think about this but the visual break given by the fade and the text on its own seemed to be useful and not to detract from the message... but as a downside it's extra time taken! 

Good idea about the single image at the end, probably better than the three I have put as they don't give much time to actually see what they are .

Crticism/ideas to improve is/are welcome - as I say, it was more a test to see how much you could fit into the 30 secs... and the answer is "not a whole lot" with an end message and the text in between the clips (which also seemed quite short). 

Also helps me with my "getting to grips with Movie Maker" somewhat too.


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## Speicher (9 Jul 2009)

Sh4rkyBloke said:


> Ooops, didn't realise there was an "official" title for it, I just put something to try and describe what it was (must really go back and read the whole thread properly it seems!! ). Sorry!



OOps time for me to apologise.  I do not think there is an "official" title yet. "Plenty of Room" was the first one on the drawing board, as it were.

Magnatom will correct me if I am wrong, but I think people would be happy to consider other suggestions.


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## magnatom (9 Jul 2009)

Speicher said:


> OOps time for me to apologise.  I do not think there is an "official" title yet. "Plenty of Room" was the first one on the drawing board, as it were.
> 
> Magnatom will correct me if I am wrong, but I think people would be happy to consider other suggestions.




Oh yes, the more suggestions the better. There are no toes to step on here. I started the thread, I am trying to push it along a bit, but I certainly don't have all of the answers/skills etc. No-one can do everything! So the more ideas the better, although we will need to focus fairly soon.


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## CopperBrompton (9 Jul 2009)

Thanks for doing that, Sharky - it helps to make the general concept a bit more real. And yes, getting things into 30 seconds is a real skill - it's why a lot of famous movie directors like doing ads, because it's a great challenge.

'Plenty of room' was merely my suggestion, but I have no ego invested in it. If we do decide to use it, making the oo into cycle wheels is a great idea.


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## classic33 (9 Jul 2009)

magnatom said:


> Classic33, that's excellent news!
> 
> If you don't want to reveal the details of the company in public you could always PM me the details so I know who might be on board.



Got in touch with a local company, they have lorries all over the country. So I just thought about trying to get them on our side. Other replies awaited.


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## Arch (9 Jul 2009)

I thought Sh4rkey's film was excellent. If you want more time on the stills, just cut one of the previous plenty of room shots. 30 seconds, done well, will be far more effective than a minute, which will just get dull. It's like editing writing, you are most effective when you pare it right down.

I don't think you need much more time on the stills, either. I know I've seen them before, but it's pretty obvious what it is, and the imagination is a powerful thing.

When I was a kid, we were shown a rail safety film, a kid crossing a track slipped and got his shoelace caught so that his foot was on the track, train coming. Cut to kid at home, looking sad, his Mum lifting him off a sofa, camera pans down to where his foot should be. It stopped before it reached any shot that would have actually shown a stump, but we all knew exactly what we would have seen, and I've not forgotten that film to this day.


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## Speicher (9 Jul 2009)

magnatom said:


> I know a couple of people have made the point that Plenty of Room is a little detached from the issue, i.e. it doesn't make you think of cyclists and HGVs. Speicher made the point to me via PM that we could possibly make the oo in room bicycle wheels, and have a bike above it.
> 
> I also wondered if you could somehow make the M look like an HGV, so that as part of the slogan you could have a bike approaching an HGV (if you had a question mark after that it could be the HGV cab).
> 
> Again, I stray into areas that I have no skills in (any graphic artists out there?) and yes some may think this is a daft idea, but it is just an idea....what do you think?





Ben Lovejoy said:


> 'Plenty of room' was merely my suggestion, but I have no ego invested in it. If we do decide to use it, making the oo into cycle wheels is a great idea.



Thank you for saying that. I was too shy to mention it directly on the forum without some feedback.  I was also thinking along the lines of "plenty" being in/on the trailer of the HGV and "of" being the cab. But I am not very good at drawing.


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## sheddy (9 Jul 2009)

my minor niggle is that when I see plentyofroom, I read it as - plenty o froom
(the irish lady racing driver?)


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## Sh4rkyBloke (9 Jul 2009)

I used the "plenty of room" as the text between the sequences (which need proper footage btw, obviously some which includes an HGV!) because it fitted nicely with the aim of the message... 

I put the "Be patient, not a patient" as a sort of overall "tagline" to try and get the message across that saving a couple of seconds by undertaking just isn't worth the risk... "plenty of room" as an overall tagline didn't seem to fit somehow... does that make any sense?


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## ttcycle (10 Jul 2009)

hello again!

Not seen the vid Sh4rky made - don't know when I'll get a chance -hahah! Great initiative though in getting something together.

Have some interesting feedback from my journalist mate who works for one of the broadsheets - for this campaign to be possibly taken up by national media a press release needs to be written up and she said that she would give me a hand with writing it up for best impact - she agreed it was a great idea- said I would take it back here for you guys.

Here are some of my thoughts: 

It's been in the news/public media recently- we need to move quickly with the spirit of reportage and get into the slot before the ideas become stale. Therefore we need to focus up the ideas and aims, have a name/contact webpage for the campaign and decide how we want to proceed with it solidly before we can do anything strong and decided.

I gave her the ideas about the ad- viral spreading, guerilla stickering of buses, flyering bikes and stands, linking with HGV community, talking to people etc and linking with national media all of which she said were good ideas. Shall we carry them all forward? Any more ideas to add to the slate? Plus, may also be useful to link with CTC/other cycling bodies working on this for larger body of people. 

CotterPin - you have any contacts in CTC?
Was it Scouser that said he had media contacts too? I know there was mention of someone knowing the PR for TfL - any feedback guys?

I suppose at some point we'll all need to get together - what's the best location for this - might be useful to know where everyone's based so we can be fair about it..maybe also look at areas in the country that we could get someone doing some actions/campaigning too.

Well that's my feedback for the day....back to work but it's that FRIDAY feeling


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## Jake (10 Jul 2009)

*pops back in again as been busy*
so whats the brief update on where things are at the moment?


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## Speicher (10 Jul 2009)

Jake, pleased to see you back. A quick summary just for you. 



Sh4rkyBloke said:


> Working on Ben's excellent idea I have thrown together a quick (30 sec) video cobbled from bits of my 2 days commuting with a camera (I know, such a huge resource of film to work with!!)...
> 
> One thing I have to say is that it's damned difficult to work within 30 seconds!!
> 
> ...






Sh4rkyBloke said:


> I used the "plenty of room" as the text between the sequences (which need proper footage btw, obviously some which includes an HGV!) because it fitted nicely with the aim of the message...
> 
> I put the "Be patient, not a patient" as a sort of overall "tagline" to try and get the message across that saving a couple of seconds by undertaking just isn't worth the risk... "plenty of room" as an overall tagline didn't seem to fit somehow... does that make any sense?



The above quotes should help. For more detail go back about four or five pages. I think we are at the stage of thinking about a website. You and GordyFaeEdinburgh have very kindly offered to construct a website.

There have been more discussions about the title of the Campaign as well, but that is difficult to summarise.


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## Bman (10 Jul 2009)

Wow. This has moved on a lot in the last few days. 

Great first draft at the video SharkyBloke. I agree with Arch on that you dont need too long to grasp the severity of the accident stills. One thing I would say though:

I'm not sure if the public will relate the camera footage with a cyclist. We should probably have one or two of the video clips shot from a 3rd person to show a cyclist with helmet cam in a fitting situation.


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## Speicher (10 Jul 2009)

My thoughts are that it is difficult to fit all this into 30 seconds. I realise that today people's attention span may be short, but could the video be longer? Or make different versions according to where they will be shown.

I keep thinking of the FAST clip about recognising someone having a stroke and taking action, that is quite long isn't it? Magnatom - have you seen that campaign?


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## Jake (10 Jul 2009)

Thanks, been out most nights and up early most days ( and at work i'm watching Le Tour. Nice to see my specialized in it, although most crashes have involved riders coming off them lol

video is good, punchy and gets to the point. no messing around. Maybe slightly longer for youtube/cinema audiences, but IF it was to run as a TV then it has to be short. Not sure where the footage filmed from the lorry drivers POV would be included, if at all.

Seems like you know what your doing with the video editing, (which is a shame, as better at that then the web stuff lol) My grahpic design skills are pretty poor, but i can bang a site together as long as there is guidence on how people want it to look, layout, colours etc etc.

Is there an accompanying poster too?

(MB rider at work had a go at taxi driver on monday after the taxi force the girl off her bike and onto the pavement. Gold star to the MB)


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## CotterPin (10 Jul 2009)

ttcycle said:


> hello again!
> ...
> I gave her the ideas about the ad- viral spreading, guerilla stickering of buses, flyering bikes and stands, linking with HGV community, talking to people etc and linking with national media all of which she said were good ideas. Shall we carry them all forward? Any more ideas to add to the slate? Plus, may also be useful to link with CTC/other cycling bodies working on this for larger body of people.
> 
> ...



Thanks for comprehensive update (which I have snipped a little so I can focus on the bits I need to respond to)

Well, I must admit I am still very keen on leafleting cyclists at junctions, so would be happy to work on that as per my earlier posting, if people felt it a good idea.

My contacts are with the LCC (one of whom posted on this thread earlier). I can have a word with them. I know vaguely some folks in the CTC but others might be better placed to talk with them.


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## magnatom (10 Jul 2009)

I'm just on briefly, but this is all good news, especially ttcycle!

Yes we need to firm things up. ttcycle, did your video people get back to you? What do they think of the ideas on here and how they could be filmed.

I completely agree that the filming needs to be third person, but I think sharky was just helping to show us what it might look like.

I think getting it into 30 seconds is a skill, but if it can be done I can see the advantages. That's why it would be great if someone with the necessary skills were on board.

ttcycle,

I am in Glasgow, but I could probably pop down south if needed (the wife grugingly agreed! However, you might not need me anyway!


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## Jake (10 Jul 2009)

so we got a film crew and editors already?


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## Arch (10 Jul 2009)

magnatom said:


> I completely agree that the filming needs to be third person, but I think sharky was just helping to show us what it might look like.



I thought the helmet cam view was very effective. Could we use an establishing shot of someone on a bike, and then head on footage? I think from the side, the message about space closing up will be lost. Unless we could film the cyclist from behind to get the same POV, but have the bike in it... Filmed from following car, or helmet cam....


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## Jake (10 Jul 2009)

a POV shot would be tbe best and you could get the message across doubly. Although this idea may make it confusing. if you had one cyclist on the left with no room, and one riding with plenty of room with POV filming from behind both. But could be too confusing, too much info on screen. so, POV of single cyclist on the left. (although the POV shot could convey that it is another cyclist behind who is giving plenty of room.)


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## CopperBrompton (10 Jul 2009)

With decent camera equipment, we can include handlebars in the shot to make things clear.


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## magnatom (10 Jul 2009)

OK guys, as ttcycle says, we need to move as quick as we can for this. We have one campaign name Plenty of Room, or Plenty of Room? and we have a website address for it. Unless someone can come up with a better one, I think we should run with this. Sure it might not be perfect, but once we have this finanlised, we can get the best we an out of it.

If we finalise on this we should probably start a new thread to get things moving and to make it easier for others to delve in. I have asked if another section was possible, but no reply.  I suggest that all new threads related to this should have [action] at the start of the title to make it easier to keep track.


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## Speicher (10 Jul 2009)

IIRC at the beginning of the week, Admin said he had "man flu", he may just be concentrating on his paid job.


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## magnatom (10 Jul 2009)

Speicher said:


> IIRC at the beginning of the week, Admin said he had "man flu", he may just be concentrating on his paid job.




Oh aye! I dodn't mean that he was at fault. I'm sure he is a busy man and setting up a new section might mess things up for the site etc. If it's easy then great. If not then I'm sure we can cope!


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## ttcycle (11 Jul 2009)

Howdie folks!

Am on again; madcap time keeping!

Man Flu - poor Admin!

Magnatom; I still think Plenty or Room question mark or no question mark is lacking in punch; sounds too polite and not enough impact/slightly detached. Though the only alternative I can think of related to it would be Tons of Room (playing on the idea that HGV's carry a ton of stuff on the back) However, that is pretty dire as a suggestion and is still low impact. 

Sh4rky - top vid; good to get an idea and I agree the black background with writing has more direct impact - nice.

Magnatom -chased up the two filmmakers as both showed vague interest but nothing solid yet.

Where are the rest of you based? Would be good to meet somewhere as accessible as possible - I would be London biased as I'm down here but depends where's fairest! Magnatom this meeting couldn't happen without you!!!

CotterPin - yeah if you can link in with LCC and get people on board from CTC too that would be brilliant!

Jake/Ben - can either of you film or have any buddies that can film should my two contacts not be fully interested?


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## CopperBrompton (11 Jul 2009)

I'm a stills photographer. As a last resort, I'm sure I could figure out the filming, but it would be much better to have someone who really knows what they're doing.


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## ttcycle (11 Jul 2009)

Hi Ben

The stills might be useful for general campaign posters/flyers - some hard hitting images perhaps - I could lend a hand with photography if you needed but maybe this can be crystallised further ie details when the basics are clearer.


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## sheddy (11 Jul 2009)

Can the the ? be included in the url, ie ww.plentyofroom?.co.uk
(just to highlight the irony)


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## Rhythm Thief (11 Jul 2009)

If we need to stage anything involving bikes and trucks, I'm sure I could arrange with my employer top spend a Saturday in the yard with my artic, a camera and some bikes. We could do some mirror shots too, to illustrate what the driver can and can't see from the cab.


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## CopperBrompton (11 Jul 2009)

RT, do you think you might be able to get permission to take it out on the roads for the filming? For the mirror shots, we really want to show the road view, ideally at a junction with railings. I'm guessing there'll be somewhere suitable in Hereford or Gloucester if not closer?

Would a Sunday be feasible? It would be much easier to get permission to close a lane on the roads on a Sunday.


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## Rhythm Thief (11 Jul 2009)

Ben Lovejoy said:


> RT, do you think you might be able to get permission to take it out on the roads for the filming? For the mirror shots, we really want to show the road view, ideally at a junction with railings. I'm guessing there'll be somewhere suitable in Hereford or Gloucester if not closer?
> 
> Would a Sunday be feasible? It would be much easier to get permission to close a lane on the roads on a Sunday.



I can certainly ask. I could push the "good publicity for the company angle" and see if we can cruise around Birmingham and environs.


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## magnatom (11 Jul 2009)

Rhythm Thief said:


> I can certainly ask. I could push the "good publicity for the company angle" and see if we can cruise around Birmingham and environs.




That would be brilliant RT.


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## nigelnorris (11 Jul 2009)

I see someone has already volunteered to provide web services, but if you need a fallback I have spare hosting capacity and am familiar with blog/forum setup/administration [up to a point]. I'm not up to building sites from scratch though, so am most likely best left as a last resort.


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## ttcycle (12 Jul 2009)

http://www.rospa.com/roadsafety/resources/videos/cycling.html

One of the filmmakers drew my attention to this - the narrator is a bit dull and patronising... Said can we create anything that is as good as this? I suppose it's an awareness vid and a bit preachy not right for our needs as we're after a 30 second vid that can be used virally right? There may be a useful resource to link up with if they've already tried to raise awareness - first time I knew about this video..

Spoke to a friend about the 'plenty of room' - the difficulty is that this can seem a little too polite and twee and not hard hitting or memorable enough. Do you know what I mean? Even the stay safe stay back slogan in the vid above has less misintepretation to it.


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## CopperBrompton (12 Jul 2009)

Yeah, there is that one and the even duller Met Police one. Nobody is going to watch either.


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## magnatom (12 Jul 2009)

Ok guys. As my oldest boy says, lets get our thinking caps on, for a slogan.

My starter for 10:

Lorries have a mean left hook. 

Obviously this would appear with a dramatic photo.

Maybe you could use boxing lingo throughout the clip, i.e. Cyclist drops his guard, cyclist jabs down the left, lorry is going for a body blow etc, cyclist is on the ropes (i.e. railing) etc. 

There you go. I've got my daft idea out the way. Any others?


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## sheddy (12 Jul 2009)

Do not ride - down the inside


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## Sh4rkyBloke (12 Jul 2009)

I think filming a cyclist in front would possibly have more impact (rather than being from the cyclists point of view) purely as it gives more of a context to the situation. I commute in most mornings with Tharg so I'll have a word with him to see if we can get some more relevant footage (same road, different positions/lanes and then with an HGV there too... we might be struggling though!!) with me filming him riding. I'll then throw this into a short vid to see what folks think with the more accurate footage and the different point of view.

I don't think you can have a question mark in a URL so www.plentyofroom?.co.uk wouldn't be possible (as an aside, I also read it as "plenty o froom"... no idea why!!).

I've no qualms about changing the "overall tagline" to this though, if this is what people think is best.

Some good ideas there Mags re: the tagline and overall direction, but using the boxing jargon *may* lose some of the intended audience (and if we are aiming this at mainly newbie cyclists who may not know any better, would they know it as a "left hook"?).

It's quite difficult, this campaigning lark... no wonder people choose to avoid doing it!!


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## sheddy (12 Jul 2009)

I guess the best campaigns have the best slogans - 
clunk click - every trip 
don't drink and drive
just say no


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## classic33 (12 Jul 2009)

> I've got an idea!! (exclaimation marks because it's unusual for me).
> 
> Out of sight, out of mind
> 
> ...



Nice, short & easy to remember.

Why not out of sight, but not out of mind.

The driver has to try & work out where you'll reappear.


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## Origamist (13 Jul 2009)

ttcycle said:


> http://www.rospa.com/roadsafety/resources/videos/cycling.html
> 
> One of the filmmakers drew my attention to this - the narrator is a bit dull and patronising... Said can we create anything that is as good as this? I suppose it's an awareness vid and a bit preachy not right for our needs as we're after a 30 second vid that can be used virally right? There may be a useful resource to link up with if they've already tried to raise awareness - first time I knew about this video..



Both the Met and ROSPA vids are in the Campaigning section. There is also this longer vid that I linked to last year: 


View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgzsxgrryEQ&feature=related



View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XARYZR5t6l4&feature=related


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## sheddy (13 Jul 2009)

that 1st vid mentoned the slogan 'WATCH THIS SPACE'


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## magnatom (14 Jul 2009)

So, at the moment we have the following ideas with some more of my crazy ones:

*Plenty of Room?

Watch this Space (used before, does this matter?)

Out of sight, out of mind.

Do not ride - down the inside

Lorries have a mean left hook

This lorry has a crush on you...

Life is short on the left

Have a right to live

The cyclist was left to die*

Any more so I can create a poll?


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## CopperBrompton (14 Jul 2009)

I'm not sure that a poll makes sense, as the slogan has to work with the creative execution. I'd suggest details like this are left to the team who'll actually be working on it.


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## Jake (14 Jul 2009)

well i like:

*Plenty of Room?* 
*Lorries have a mean left hook

This lorry has a crush on you...*


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## magnatom (14 Jul 2009)

Ben Lovejoy said:


> I'm not sure that a poll makes sense, as the slogan has to work with the creative execution. I'd suggest details like this are left to the team who'll actually be working on it.




Fair enough, although I think it is only the team who are reading this thread now!


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## Speicher (14 Jul 2009)

I do not think I know enough about this sort of idea, to make a valuable addition to a poll. This lorry has a crush on you sounds good tho'.


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## sheddy (14 Jul 2009)

ww.thislorryhasacrushonyou.co.uk 
self explanatary and shocking, all in one sentence, perfec


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## Sh4rkyBloke (14 Jul 2009)

Shouldn't it be "may" have a crush on you? (i.e. depending on how you approach it)


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## magnatom (14 Jul 2009)

Sh4rkyBloke said:


> Shouldn't it be "may" have a crush on you? (i.e. depending on how you approach it)




I'm assuming that the slogan would appear at the end of the video as the cyclist is or has gone under the wheels of the lorry.

Of course the slogan is only part of it. We would need a video that fits. Hmmm.


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## ttcycle (15 Jul 2009)

Hello back again!

The Lorry has a crush on you -I like that one-memorable. +1+1+1!!!!

Reporting back more bits:

Filmmakers - gone quiet - no definite replies -any takers on here? I will pursue it a bit further when I get back into town as away for a few days from tommorow.

I still need to emphasise the importance of a deadline...you know strike while the iron's hot with the reportage...

New information:
I was at a meeting with nothing to do with bikes (so I thought) last night but got two contacts who I will email after posting this - one is linked with soundsystems and powering generators and anything electrical through pedals and biking, another is working on this HGV issue with LCC as one of their mates died in Chancery Lane as they were crushed to death- he runs a workshop for schoolkids to fix bikes and take them away for free. Hoping to get them on board too as well as linking with LCC. Also makes me think we should link with the Critical Mass groups in the major cities that run them...possiblity for awareness raising through an actual riding session ie not a traffic blocking protest as critical mass (in London) is when I've been on them but rather to get a load of people out onto the roads at the same time across different cities in the country and it's also a way to speak to other cyclists and flyer people with a greater impact alongside the one on one flyering and talking.

Once we know what is solidly going on I'll mailshot/email out to everyone I know to get numbers/people to help.

Ok - also asking again - would be useful to all meet up- are you guys interested in this? think it would be useful? Suppose also might be good to do this when we have a filmcrew all sorted so that only need to travel once?

Let me know and I'll check in with you guys later!


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## Origamist (15 Jul 2009)

Why don't you contact Chalie Lloyd at the LCC and discuss the project with him.


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## ttcycle (15 Jul 2009)

Origamist - can you PM his details to me? I'll get onto this once I'm back in London.
Thanks


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## Jake (15 Jul 2009)

got film crew here, not sure when they would be needed and how long for, or where. Would have to pursuade them


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## ttcycle (15 Jul 2009)

Jake - go on...sweet talk them.....

If we can push this nationally (there's a big possibility for this)to connect with national press/media they may well be interested for publicity/CV enhancement - plus it can be a way to diversify their portfolios???!! Probably only a day really - editing will be another couple of days worth of work I suppose - people have mentioned a Sunday in relation to road closures but I suppose these are details to be finalised.

Let me know how you get on!

the other questions depends on meetup- are there preferences for where they would go ie are they London centric(you're South London right?) or can they travel _and _do this for free. If it's London only I suppose that limits the location as to when and where we ALL meet up if folks are still wanting to do that.


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## Jake (15 Jul 2009)

will have to check with them next door. getting a str8 answer out of them is pretty dam hard work though. Has a location been found, a lorry, driver etc etc?


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## ttcycle (15 Jul 2009)

nope not yet - I suppose it's worth pushing that again as some people on here had contacts -not sure what's happening with that end.....

what's going with that one guys? I suppose if it hasn't moved forward it might be worth PM people who have offered help and following certain things up so we have definite answers ie HGV community - have people asked HGV guys to be involved? Who has a lorry et etc

Any volunteers to do this? Speicher are you interested or have the time to follow these links up?


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## classic33 (15 Jul 2009)

Whatever else don't let this idea stagnate. It got off to a flying start & now its slowing down. I'd hate to see the work done to date, by others, wasted.


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## sheddy (15 Jul 2009)

I hope I'm not telling Grandma to suck eggs, but could some of the ideas for slogans be shown to newbie riders ? (for a sanity check).
Is anyone involved in a BUG or something similar ?
There is a risk that although the message is obvious to us, it won't be obvious to a beginner.


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## CotterPin (16 Jul 2009)

Hi all,

I did volunteer a little while ago to contact the LCC regarding our campaign. It might be helpful before I do so if we can define what we would like them (and other campaigning groups) to do.

A few ideas might be publicity for the video, contacts to help spread the word, bodies to help distribute flyers, etc.

Any other ideas?


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## CopperBrompton (16 Jul 2009)

That would be brilliant once the materials are ready. They will be able to forward the video link to a lot of people, and help with distribution of cards/posters.

It doesn't make sense to bring them in at this stage - we already have more than enough opinions about how to go about this. :-) The priority now is to get a small group of people together who have the necessary skills and make this happen.


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## Origamist (16 Jul 2009)

CotterPin - do you think the LCC would support a shock/viral/campaign vid targeted only at cyclists?


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## CopperBrompton (16 Jul 2009)

The proposed video is targetted at cyclists and HGV drivers alike.


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## Origamist (16 Jul 2009)

I thought the central focus was on cyclists going up the left of HGVs - hence the slogans?


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## CopperBrompton (16 Jul 2009)

User3143 said:


> Indeed, but to be honest I have not been following this thread so don't know what type of advert you are going for.


There are two polls that have a few days to run, but it seems clear that the style will be hard-hitting and that the priority is a video.


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## magnatom (16 Jul 2009)

Mr P, I can see where you are coming from, but those slogans just would not stick in the mind. There are plenty of slogans like this and IMO they are simple, but instantly forgettable.

As we need to get cracking with this, might I suggest we go with

*This Lorry has a crush on you.*

Depending on how it would work with filming, we could actually have two videos. One using the above slogan, and aimed at cyclists and one using:

*Your Lorry has a crush on that cyclist.*

For HGV drivers. The video could use a lot of the same footage, just edited differently to show more of the relevant perspective.

I know the main focus is on cyclists, but it would take only a small amount of effort to extend it to HGV drivers.



Assuming there are no major objections to this, we need to start chasing people up. I can also arrange to get the correct website reserved.

So are we ok to go?


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## CopperBrompton (16 Jul 2009)

Origamist said:


> I thought the central focus was on cyclists going up the left of HGVs - hence the slogans?


That is indeed the theme, but the message will be (a) cyclists don't do this and ( HGV drivers take extra care looking for those who do


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## CopperBrompton (16 Jul 2009)

magnatom said:


> As we need to get cracking with this, might I suggest we go with
> 
> *This Lorry has a crush on you.*


I think that's memorable, powerful and conveys the right message, so gets my vote.

I don't see any slogan being used in the video - the message there is visual rather than verbal - but the above would work well if we also produce a poster and/or card.



> So are we ok to go?


Have we yet found anyone to shoot the video?

If not, and we can get a truck, I'm can do the filming using semi-pro kit, but we'd need (a) a truck, ( some bits of broken bike, helmet, etc and (c) someone to do the video editing.


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## Origamist (16 Jul 2009)

Ben Lovejoy said:


> That is indeed the theme, but the message will be (a) cyclists don't do this and ( HGV drivers take extra care looking for those who do




This is my point. It is looking at the issue through the prism of cyclists going up the left of HGVs. 

I'd put a storyboard together or a rough cut of the vid and see what the LCC say - they have been campaigning on the issue for years.


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## CopperBrompton (16 Jul 2009)

Um, that's not a prism, that's the subject of the video!

We already have a rough storyboard - see back up the thread - and as I say, the last thing we need right now is more opinions, otherwise nothing will ever happen. We now need to get a team together and get on with it.


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## magnatom (16 Jul 2009)

Ben Lovejoy said:


> Um, that's not a prism, that's the subject of the video!
> 
> We already have a rough storyboard - see back up the thread - and as I say, the last thing we need right now is more opinions, otherwise nothing will ever happen. We now need to get a team together and get on with it.




+1

I'll write more at lunch time.


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## Origamist (16 Jul 2009)

Ben Lovejoy said:


> Um, that's not a prism, that's the subject of the video!
> 
> We already have a rough storyboard - see back up the thread - and as I say, the last thing we need right now is more opinions, otherwise nothing will ever happen. We now need to get a team together and get on with it.



The subject of the video is refracted through the prism of cyclist behavoir at junctions. As such, there is the potential danger of the video being counter-productive and misleading. 

If you don't feel the need to contact people who have vastly more experience than you on the subject - good luck.


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## CopperBrompton (16 Jul 2009)

I think you haven't read the thread you're commenting on, Origamist.


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## CotterPin (16 Jul 2009)

Origamist said:


> CotterPin - do you think the LCC would support a shock/viral/campaign vid targeted only at cyclists?



Good point - I've emailed them to alert them to the latest on this discussion. Hopefully, someone will be along from that organisation to comment.


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## Origamist (16 Jul 2009)

Ben Lovejoy said:


> I think you haven't read the thread you're commenting on, Origamist.



I have read the thread.

My advice about discussing things with the LCC is offered in good faith - if you want to ignore it, that's your prerogative.


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## CopperBrompton (16 Jul 2009)

I appreciate it's offered in good faith, but there comes a stage with these things were we either act or we get into an infinite loop of differing opinions until everyone gets fed up and nothing is done.


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## Jake (16 Jul 2009)

*NEWS FLASH!!!*

Had a fab idea on the way to work. I know its prob too late, but hey. I got hte inspiration from a lorry i saw today. So... 

POV of a cylcist approaching lorry. Wirrten on the left hand side of the lorry is "gamble". Pan over to right or just middle, "don't gamble". Cylcist goes for gamle and you get the classic fruit machine view of the three wheels, one has a picture of his girlfriend (i know its sexist and straight), second is house, and third is a picture of something like an angle, coffin, ambulance. hmmmm, those images came to mind through loosing all of them if you died. Maybe the pcitures could be a bike crumbled, as by a lorry, a guy in plaster, or the death one again. 

on the don't gamble, you could have images portraying life such as kids, playing football getting married etc.

*Are you a gambler?*


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## Origamist (16 Jul 2009)

It seems to me that you have the opportunity to do something both constructive and important with this video - but as the content and form is key, a wait of a couple of days for guidance might help to crystallize the project.

After that, get on with it - set deadlines, factor in slack, draw up a Gantt chart - all the dull things project managers do...


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## CopperBrompton (16 Jul 2009)

So far we have 31 pages of discussion with just one board on one forum. Now imagine opening it up to another organisation. 62 pages later, a few die-hards would still be disagreeing about the ideal message and approach and the idea would be as dead as the cyclists crushed by the trucks.


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## magnatom (16 Jul 2009)

Ben,

I think it won't do any harm to have someone from LCC to have a look at this thread and offer advice. I also think it is absolutely vital to have support from these types of organisations. However, what could make this campaign different and get the interest of media etc is that it is ground route driven, i.e. cyclists, not CTC or LCC. That is not to say they can't help and advise and back us of course.


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## magnatom (16 Jul 2009)

Jake said:


> *NEWS FLASH!!!*
> 
> Had a fab idea on the way to work. I know its prob too late, but hey. I got hte inspiration from a lorry i saw today. So...
> 
> ...



It's a good idea, but yes I think it's too late! I think we should go with the Lorry crush idea as a number of the group have said they like it and it would take time to get any agreement on anything else.

Of course if anyone disagrees with this... 
What we need is a video that can incorporate the lorry crush slogan at the end (Ben, should we not include it in the video?).


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## magnatom (16 Jul 2009)

User3143 said:


> I echo what Origamist says.




Sorry Lee, I don't quite follow you.


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## CopperBrompton (16 Jul 2009)

magnatom said:


> I think it won't do any harm to have someone from LCC to have a look at this thread and offer advice.


My own experience of these things is that the more opinions you get, the less chance of anything ever being done. (Either that, or the video gets so watered-down by trying to please everyone that it is as dull as the police one and no-one will ever watch it.)

But it's your thread and your call.


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## magnatom (16 Jul 2009)

User3143 said:


> What he has said about the LCC.




Yes but I was agreeing with him in that some advice wouldn't hurt.


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## magnatom (16 Jul 2009)

Ben Lovejoy said:


> My own experience of these things is that the more opinions you get, the less chance of anything ever being done. (Either that, or the video gets so watered-down by trying to please everyone that it is as dull as the police one and no-one will ever watch it.)
> 
> But it's your thread and your call.



Oi! Don't put me in a position of being in charge!  Yes I started this, but my job now is general cajoler! 

I agree with you, which is why I've tried to put my foot down (in a cajolling way) to finalise on a slogan which seems to get a fair amount of approval. I think LCC's advice will be along the lines of getting the message out, etc, not the content of the video. Video content is decided here, by us.

There you go, I said it. Put my foot down...oh no, I'm not taking charge am I!

Right.

That's it. I'm getting the hang of this.

The slogan for our campaign is:

*This Lorry has a crush on you.*

With a secondary and related slogan for the HGV drivers of:

*Your Lorry has a crush on that cyclist.*

Let's start getting a video together.

I think the storyboard that Ben mentioned is sound, except we should adjust it a little to fit the new slogan. I think it could incorporate a beating heart somehow, representing the crush (Love), and the life of the cyclist.

Lorries often have teddys etc on the front grill. How about having a heart on the front grill, a flashing one, that as it crushes the cyclist stops flashing/beating. 

We have the slogan now lets focus on video details.


(Ok, some quite heavy handed cajoling! )


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## ttcycle (16 Jul 2009)

Magnatom-that's the spirit +1 +1 - we got a slogan!!!Woo F@:@@ hoo!

Am on now just before I leave the old smoke - Ben I think it is important to have LCC and others on board to help - opinions are also good but lets move this forward and get people on board.

The focus is the vid but I've said a few things as well which can add to the campaign I'll write them here so people can chip in etc and I'll check it out when I'm back:

1.Posters and flyers- flyering people and bikes- LCC and CTC useful for contacts and people to help with this?
2.Talking with people -cyclist and HGV
3. Getting a huge number of cyclists out - possibly link it with national media ie maybe get critical mass involved across all the large cities where they're held.
4. Writing a press release and promoting the vid/ideas in Broadsheets/national media
5. Guerilla stickering a sticker on back of buses - this needs lots of people to do it otherwise the stickers will just be removed.

Anyway gotta go- good luck with the chasing up of contacts etc -I'm all on board with this and will link in people and contact I know as well as planning - God I even know how to do a Gant chart...hahah


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## charlie_lcc (16 Jul 2009)

Hi, Charlie from LCC here. I haven't followed up all of this thread yet but we are interested in anything people are doing to raise awareness of the HGV x Cyclist problem. We will be expanding the HGV section of our website, linking to all the films out there, including the metpolice, rospa, robin webb etc. It is really difficult to get all the important messages across because there is a wide range of risky interactions with lorries, not going up the left when there is any possibility of change is the most important.
Transport for London have made their own video, in a 5 minute and a 14 minute version presented as a dialogue between drivers and cyclists. It is supposed to be released today but I haven't seen the release yet. The short version is pretty good, definitely worth looking at and then seeing if we can do better. I will post a link as soon as it is publically available.
At the 'changing places' exercise in Hackney this week 400 cyclists got the chance to climb up to the driver cab and experience what a driver can and cannot see. There will be more of these events, in Russell Square on July 22 and possibly at the Hounslow Skyride on 9th august.


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## CopperBrompton (16 Jul 2009)

I wouldn't personally mess around with the video storyboard to try to squeeze in references to the slogan. A 30-second video needs to carry a single message and be very focused on that. However, there's no problem having the slogan appear at the end:

2-sec video clip of cyclist on wide, empty road
Caption: Plenty of room

2-sec video clip of cyclist taking primary in left-hand filter lane, cars in straight-ahead lane to right
Caption: Plenty of room

2-second video clip of cyclist taking primary in straight-ahead lane, cars in left filter-lane to right
Caption: Plenty of room

Still photo of lorry at lights, wide gap to its left, cyclist heading for gap
Caption: Plenty of room?

2-sec video clip of cyclist cycling up the left of the lorry and stopping at the lights

In-cab shot of driver checking wing mirror and looking above the cyclist, no cyclist visible

In-cab shot of driver applying left-hand indicator

In-cab shot of driver pulling away and turning left

In-cab shot of wing mirror, showing lorry centimetres from railings, but still looking above the height of the cyclist

Freeze video

Cut to still of mangled bike beneath wheels
Cut to still of crushed helmet
Cut to still of other debris

Video of sheet being pulled over body under lorry

Fade out to caption:
[Cyclist version] Don't let a lorry have a crush on you
[HGV driver version] Don't let your lorry have a crush on a cyclist


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## Origamist (16 Jul 2009)

TFL 5 min vid:

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/cycling/11687.aspx?lid=switcher#beware


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## CopperBrompton (16 Jul 2009)

It's better than the Police and RoSPA ones, for sure. I'd say that's a decent video for the more committed cyclists, and as someone with an interest in vehicles of all types, personally I liked the graphics showing the blind-spots.

I would say the chances of more casual cyclists watching it are pretty low, so I think there's definitely still a role for the more hard-hitting 30-second video we're proposing.


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## magnatom (16 Jul 2009)

Ben Lovejoy said:


> I wouldn't personally mess around with the video storyboard to try to squeeze in references to the slogan. A 30-second video needs to carry a single message and be very focused on that. However, there's no problem having the slogan appear at the end:
> 
> 2-sec video clip of cyclist on wide, empty road
> Caption: Plenty of room
> ...



Fair enough. Just wonder if the slogan could be tweaked at the end

[Cyclist version] Lorries could have a crush on you
[HGV driver version]Your Lorry could have a cyclist crush

Just a thought.


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## Jake (16 Jul 2009)

good video for sure. lots of good info in it. Was there a shorter version mentioned?


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## magnatom (16 Jul 2009)

Origamist said:


> TFL 5 min vid:
> 
> http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/cycling/11687.aspx?lid=switcher#beware




I don' like the suggestion that if you know the lights are some time before changing that you can pop down the left. It still leaves every situation ti interpretation which is not infallible. 

Simplify, simplify, simplify. Wait behind the HGV.


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## magnatom (16 Jul 2009)

charlie_lcc said:


> Hi, Charlie from LCC here. I haven't followed up all of this thread yet but we are interested in anything people are doing to raise awareness of the HGV x Cyclist problem. We will be expanding the HGV section of our website, linking to all the films out there, including the metpolice, rospa, robin webb etc. It is really difficult to get all the important messages across because there is a wide range of risky interactions with lorries, not going up the left when there is any possibility of change is the most important.
> Transport for London have made their own video, in a 5 minute and a 14 minute version presented as a dialogue between drivers and cyclists. It is supposed to be released today but I haven't seen the release yet. The short version is pretty good, definitely worth looking at and then seeing if we can do better. I will post a link as soon as it is publically available.
> At the 'changing places' exercise in Hackney this week 400 cyclists got the chance to climb up to the driver cab and experience what a driver can and cannot see. There will be more of these events, in Russell Square on July 22 and possibly at the Hounslow Skyride on 9th august.




Thanks for popping in Charlie. Any advice or help you can provide will be most appreciated. 

I've had a look at that video and it is good, just my one concern mentioned earlier.


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## charlie_lcc (16 Jul 2009)

magnatom said:


> I don' like the suggestion that if you know the lights are some time before changing that you can pop down the left. It still leaves every situation to interpretation which is not infallible.
> 
> Simplify, simplify, simplify. Wait behind the HGV.


+1 on that. There is no shorter version from TfL. They tell us there is a longer one, 14mins to be sent out to lorry companies. I haven't seen it yet.
There really is space out there for a strong 30sec video message.
-
charlie.


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## magnatom (16 Jul 2009)

charlie_lcc said:


> +1 on that. There is no shorter version from TfL. They tell us there is a longer one, 14mins to be sent out to lorry companies. I haven't seen it yet.
> There really is space out there for a strong 30sec video message.
> -
> charlie.




We are also hoping if the message is see to come from a ground roots movement that the press will take a bit of notice.

Obviously the problem is bad in London, but we also want this campaign to go nationwide as it isn't just a problem in London. I have witness the aftermath of a cyclist killed (from a distance) by a turning HGV here in Glasgow.


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## Arch (16 Jul 2009)

There's a chap posted in Beginners, about making TV programmes for local TV, he's based in Suffolk. Might have access to equipment, expertise etc? Someone has pointed him to this thread, might be worth someone PMing him?

http://www.cyclechat.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=38600

I like that 5 min video, but agree, a 30 second one is needed, one simple message, for beginners and casual cyclists...


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## magnatom (16 Jul 2009)

Thanks for that Arch. At the moment I think Jake is up for filming, but it is good to have back up.


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## Jake (16 Jul 2009)

got a camera man. Not sure if he is good enough, but he's worked on The Bill, Wilmbledon and other TV stuff. what do you think?


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## magnatom (16 Jul 2009)

Excellent. Many thanks for sorting that! We need to arrange the rest of the crew. I'll get on the case tomorrow.


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## CopperBrompton (16 Jul 2009)

Sounds good enough to me :-)


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## Jake (16 Jul 2009)

i'm off ill from work now with cold/flu/pig flu. So going to see how things look on Monday before going back in. So it iwll be hard to find the couple of other camera guys, sound etc for it. plus signing out the kit from work. So its on hold till at earlist, monday.


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## Origamist (17 Jul 2009)

> Shouldn't the campaign be inclusive of buses?



HGVs (or LGVs as I keep forgetting to write) present a greater threat and the emphasis should be on them, IMO.


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## CopperBrompton (17 Jul 2009)

I agree: it's a 30-second message, it needs to be kept simple and focused


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## sheddy (20 Jul 2009)

saw this (budget) video today http://www.hertsdirect.org/distracteddriver scoll down to play,
and wondered if a cab centric view(s) might negate the need to film a moving truck


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## magnatom (20 Jul 2009)

Ok. Just to summarise... at the moment, we are 

Waiting to hear from Jake if he can get a full film crew. (hope the flu is better!)

Waiting to hear from Rythm Thief about a possible HGV.



Thinking about a poster, how about a picture of a cyclist and an HGV from behind with the cyclist in a very small gap between the HGV and a barrier at the side with the 'This Lorry has a crush on you' slogan. 

You cold also have a second poster with a hard hitting picture of a crushed bike, helmet, personal effects under a lorry wheel, with the modified slogan of 'This lorry *had* a crush on you'

You could have some further information in smaller print (i.e. don't cycle up the left of HGV's etc). 

Personally I think real photos would have bigger effect on those who saw it.

From the viral perspective could we do something with the word Lorry, i.e. change it to Lori (i.e. a name) so it would be something along the lines of 'Lori has a crush on you'. Of course e-mails with this heading might be spam filtered etc. But on fliers on clean graffiti this could work, if we had lots of fliers with this on it, it might just get folk curious enough to check out the website (i.e. lorihasacrush.co.uk) which would link to the real website lorryhasacrush.co.uk.

On the web site, I think as soon as it loads the video should play, so that if people don't like the website at least they will have seen the message.

Just my thoughts.


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## Jake (20 Jul 2009)

cough cough, still dying but back at work. I can book out equipment, so you can check that off the list too  full crew should not be too much of a problem, even if we just have one broadcast camera man, I can set up other shots etc.


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## magnatom (20 Jul 2009)

Jake, yer a star!


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## Jake (21 Jul 2009)




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## ttcycle (21 Jul 2009)

Hi 

back again! Glad to hear things have moved on a bit!
Charlie thanks for the feedback - useful stuff.

So in terms of a press release - are we clearer as to what our message is? There's a slogan for sure but are we clear on what else/what other actions we want to do to promote the issue?


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## CopperBrompton (21 Jul 2009)

The press release comes once the materials are ready. First step is creating the video.


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## Jake (22 Jul 2009)

so, location and props, ie lorry


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## CopperBrompton (22 Jul 2009)

Yep. Lorry next. We have one possible offer in the Midlands, but I think the camera and crew is in London, so a London lorry would be ideal.


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## magnatom (22 Jul 2009)

I'll PM scouserinlondon as he was in contact with a trucking magazine, so maybe they can help out. I'll also PM RT to see if he is still game.


I'll also create a new thread in cafe to see if we have any willing truckers.


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## Jake (22 Jul 2009)

got another helper from my end too. I guess as soon as a lorry is confirmed we can start looking at dates and locations?


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## magnatom (22 Jul 2009)

Jake said:


> got another helper from my end too. I guess as soon as a lorry is confirmed we can start looking at dates and locations?




That's brilliant Jake. I have a thread specifically about that in cafe and I have PM'ed Rhythm Thief and scouserinlondon. Watch this space...


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## gabefleming (22 Jul 2009)

I think this is a great idea and I would be happy to help. I'm a journalist and website editor for Nursing Times. I'm happy to write any promotional copy, script for the video, or press releases. I'm also experienced with social media and would be happy to help with promoting the initiative through facebook, twitter etc. Magnatom, I've PM's you with my emails address


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## magnatom (22 Jul 2009)

gabefleming said:


> I think this is a great idea and I would be happy to help. I'm a journalist and website editor for Nursing Times. I'm happy to write any promotional copy, script for the video, or press releases. I'm also experienced with social media and would be happy to help with promoting the initiative through facebook, twitter etc. Magnatom, I've PM's you with my emails address




Excellent!  I saw the PM before I saw your reply here! 

We need to focus on getting the video sorted first, but then we will certainly need help spreading the word. 

Speicher, could you ass this to you list on page 17 of this thread?


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## Sh4rkyBloke (22 Jul 2009)

If there's a suitable Manchester junction (i.e. left filter with right straight on and right turn) then I could get 3rd person POV with Tharg (assuming he's up for it) in front for the video of the cyclist side of things - not Professional quality camera, but maybe a more 'realistic' on-the-road look would be better/suitable.

Presumably then this could be intercut with the stuff of/from the HGV and the still photos.


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## Sh4rkyBloke (22 Jul 2009)

magnatom said:


> Speicher, could you *ass* this to you list on page 17 of this thread?


Mags, easy Tiger!


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## magnatom (22 Jul 2009)

Sh4rkyBloke said:


> Mags, easy Tiger!




Opps! Who put that 's' next to the 'd'! Tsk Tsk!


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## magnatom (22 Jul 2009)

Sh4rkyBloke said:


> If there's a suitable Manchester junction (i.e. left filter with right straight on and right turn) then I could get 3rd person POV with Tharg (assuming he's up for it) in front for the video of the cyclist side of things - not Professional quality camera, but maybe a more 'realistic' on-the-road look would be better/suitable.
> 
> Presumably then this could be intercut with the stuff of/from the HGV and the still photos.




It might be difficult to merge footage if we film in London as it looks like we might be doing. Of course, you could pop down to London.....


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## joch (22 Jul 2009)

looks like tfl is doing something:

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/cycling/11687.aspx?lid=switcher


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## gabefleming (22 Jul 2009)

Apologies if this has already been posted, but TFL have had a good go at this: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/cycling/11687.aspx


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## classic33 (22 Jul 2009)

Tried contacting the RHA, but to date no response. I'd have thought it would have helped them as well.


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## CopperBrompton (22 Jul 2009)

TFL, RoSPA and the Police all have videos addressing the issue, but all are very long and either quite, very or exceedingly boring.

The idea of ours is a 30-second ad-style video that people will actually watch and remember.


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## ttcycle (23 Jul 2009)

Any news on this one?

Am laid up with the old oink flu...has put my training for the triathlon next saturday in a bit of a bind but sod all I can do about it..whinge whinge whinge!


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## Speicher (23 Jul 2009)

*OFFERS OF HELP FROM FORUM MEMBERS*

Magnatom, I have added Gebefleming's recent offer of help. I apologise for my recent absence, I will read through the last x no of pages to pick up any other offers asap. If anyone thinks I have missed off their offers, please pm me, and I will amend the list.

*ttcycle *
She has experience with community campaigns. Also has a broad sheet contact, and has two film-maker friends - she will contact them.

*Magnatom *
knows a CEO of an Ad Agency
　
*scouserinlondon *
He is in web marketing. Used to work for a trucking magazine. Still has contact with the editor and will call him, when there is a "clear campaign and idea". He is also happy to help with any promotion stuff you need to do, from SEO and PPC campaigns to any website, to laminating and flyering. 
　
*Ben Lovejoy *
www.photographybybenlovejoy.com has offered his skills in still photography. He can also drive a 7.5 ton truck.
　
*Plax *
has offered to help with campaigning 
　
*Kaipath *
has shot videos before, he gives a link to one of them - I tried to copy the link, but it would not work on my computer. He says it is NSFW.
　
*karlos_the_jackal *
(www.myolondon.com) He has offered advertising skills which includes clean graffiti, I think this means it washes off.
　
*Jake*
He edits videos, makes websites. He has got a film crew, (but they usually film people with not much on). 
　
*GordyFaeEdinburgh*
He would be happy to host the website. He would also be able to help put a web-site together.

*Rhythm Thief*
He may be able to find a lorry we can use, but will need to ask the relevant people.

*Gabefleming*
Is a journalist and website editor for Nursing Times, and is happy to write any promotional copy, script for the video, or press releases. Also experienced with social media and would be happy to help with promoting the initiative through facebook, twitter etc. 
　
The following have offered to help but not sure how they can help
Davywalnuts
Cotterpin
wesa
semislickstick
Arch 
Jim Noir (says he can do home movies)
upsidedown
Sh4rkyBloke 


I tried to be very accurate with this, but if you notice any errors, please pm me, and I will edit it accordingly.


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## ttcycle (27 Jul 2009)

Just a quick one as still holed up in bed.

Got given a cycling book as a present - brings to mind two possible useful links for this...

Matt Seaton-bike mad guardian journalist (my friend works for the times) and of note is Jon Snow is CTC president. Sorry for those that know this but would be useful for getting wider press coverage-have yet to send out emails re the other grassroots community links I made in a meeting I made a few weeks ago- one of the groups has a friend who got killed by undertaking a HGV so it's very personal to them and I know they're working with LCC.

Well am going back to bed! Will get back onto this once I'm mended.


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## magnatom (27 Jul 2009)

Aye,

I've not been on the ball lately. Wifes pregnant, one of my kids has croup (second time, and not as serious this time) and we are looking at sell and buying houses. So I've been otherwise pre-occupied!

User3143, you didn't get back to me about the HGV you mentioned on the other thread. Would you be able to get one that would have the relevant mirrors?


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## magnatom (27 Jul 2009)

I'm sure we could use your current HGV with some creative filming. (Lee's current HGV has the blindspot mirrors.I'm sure we could film the video despite this. Any thoughts folks?)

How busy would the junction in question be on a Sunday? Do you think we would be able to film there (i.e. get a part of the road closed for a few hours one early Sunday morning?)


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## magnatom (27 Jul 2009)

User3143 said:


> Sorry I cannot get hold of a HGV, you won't be able to get the road closed because it is a main trunk road.
> 
> Wouldn't have thought you would have problem filming though, you only need get footage of someone undertaking a truck and some from the inside of the cab.




I'll defer to the experts on that one. Jake?

So we are still in need of an HGV (thanks for trying Lee).

Surely we know someone in London who has an HGV!


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## Jake (27 Jul 2009)

sorry, what have i done? oh right, hmmm. Should be ok i guess, wont really know till we try it.


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## CopperBrompton (27 Jul 2009)

Would mean a second location for the crushed bike scenes, but those don't need to show the barriers, and could conceivably be off-road.

I would have thought it much easier, though, to pick a single location we can get get closed. No shortage of suitable ones in London.


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## magnatom (27 Jul 2009)

I have absolutely no knowledge of London, so I can't help with location unfortunately.


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## Jake (27 Jul 2009)

I seriously doubt we can get a real location and still think the only way to do it, is on some kind of provate land, a lrry/bus training area.


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## Jake (27 Jul 2009)

Right, heads up. New guy at work did a film a few years ago in london. to close a road off you need permission. You need to pay for this, as i thought, the ammount depends on which burough you do it in. As he was making a money making film, he had to pay about £800. As this is a educational thing, we might be able to barter, maybe get it for nothing. I'm also pretty dam sure you will need insurence, risk assesment malarky stuff too especialy as there would be a dangerous vehicle about.


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## Sh4rkyBloke (27 Jul 2009)

Just do what the Utility people do - cone an area off with nothing happening inside the coned off area... people are used to seeing it.


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## sheddy (27 Jul 2009)

Would an LGV Training School have an area of private track that could be used (in return for a credit) ?


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## Jake (27 Jul 2009)

sheddy said:


> Would an LGV Training School have an area of private track that could be used (in return for a credit) ?



this is what i'm thinking along.


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## g00se (28 Jul 2009)

Just a quick thought. I've read of TV filming taking part during the summer at about 5am Sunday morning in the City of London. It's fairly quiet as the City is dead over weekends - and that early, no one is about. I recall one of the actors said they did scenes for "Ashes to Ashes" without notifying anyone or closing the road.


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## CopperBrompton (28 Jul 2009)

That's a very good idea, actually. We wouldn't be there for long, so a few cones, a few hi-viz vests and probably nobody would bother us.


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## g00se (28 Jul 2009)

Just thinking about it - if you were to do that - make sure it's obvious you're filming. Surreptitiously sneaking about with a truck in the financial district when no one is about might be a little suspicious on CCTV cameras.


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## magnatom (28 Jul 2009)

So does anyone have any spare road cones?

(I suppose we could just ask some students! )


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## magnatom (28 Jul 2009)

As we have had no-one in London who could supply and drive an HGV on here, what local London companies do you think we should approach. I could certainly write a few e-mails.


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## Jake (28 Jul 2009)

"tick" for lee


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## CopperBrompton (28 Jul 2009)

Private land isn't going to get a junction with traffic lights, which is what we need for this.


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## magnatom (28 Jul 2009)

I agree with Ben, unless one of these centres has a 'realistic' junction, we would be better going with the option of filming early in the morning.


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## Origamist (28 Jul 2009)

g00se said:


> Just thinking about it - if you were to do that - make sure it's obvious you're filming. Surreptitiously sneaking about with a truck in the financial district when no one is about might be a little suspicious on CCTV cameras.



Do not do this without authorisation in the heart of the the square mile. City of London Police will be onto you very quickly and they'd take a very dim view of this.


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## magnatom (28 Jul 2009)

We are looking for realistic footage, i.e. something that would look like a normal commuter on their way to work. It should be at a junction where there is a risk, i.e. barriers, left turn, and lights where cyclists are prone to cycle up the left of HGVs stopped at lights. 

Filming this at an old aerodrome would be easier, but it would not provide the right context for the film IMO. Of course it is possible that a training facility might have a mock junction. If so then that certainly is a possibility.


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## magnatom (28 Jul 2009)

Origamist said:


> Do not do this without authorisation in the heart of the the square mile. City of London Police will be onto you very quickly and they'd take a very dim view of this.




Mmm. That would be a good way to get some publicity though.....


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## Jake (28 Jul 2009)

a training centre would bound to have a realisitc mock up?! or we could break into the MOD land where they have fake towns made up


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## magnatom (28 Jul 2009)

I'll defer to those who know more, however, I think we would probably need a few takes, few angles etc to get enough footage to work from. I know that any time I have been involved in filming for anything, the amount of footage far outweighs the amount that actually makes it on screen.


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## Jake (28 Jul 2009)

20 seconds! you ever set up a shot? i guess it depends how you want it done. If you want tripods, lighting, sound etc. How long do you think it takes to set all that up. We could just wack a camera on our shoulder and grab a shot yes. How professional do you want it? Do we wants shots from inside the cab, who is the unlucky guy to cycle on the inside? what about other traffic? What if by some miracle a copper is about and asks for permits?


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## CopperBrompton (28 Jul 2009)

User3143 said:


> What footage is it you are after again?


2-sec video clip of cyclist on wide, empty road
Caption: Plenty of room

2-sec video clip of cyclist taking primary in left-hand filter lane, cars in straight-ahead lane to right
Caption: Plenty of room

2-second video clip of cyclist taking primary in straight-ahead lane, cars in left filter-lane to right
Caption: Plenty of room

Still photo of lorry at lights, wide gap to its left, cyclist heading for gap
Caption: Plenty of room?

2-sec video clip of cyclist cycling up the left of the lorry and stopping at the lights

In-cab shot of driver checking wing mirror and looking above the cyclist, no cyclist visible

In-cab shot of driver applying left-hand indicator

In-cab shot of driver pulling away and turning left

In-cab shot of wing mirror, showing lorry centimetres from railings, but still looking above the height of the cyclist

Freeze video

Cut to still of mangled bike beneath wheels
Cut to still of crushed helmet
Cut to still of other debris

Video of sheet being pulled over body under lorry

Fade out to caption:
[Cyclist version] Don't let a lorry have a crush on you
[HGV driver version] Don't let your lorry have a crush on a cyclist


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## ttcycle (28 Jul 2009)

Just read this - I'll check with two people I know who are police/have contact within the police about getting permission to film and how easy this is/costs stc- I second you Jake it takes a lot to set up a shot for all the correct footage. 

Am also emailing those two contacts to see if they're able to offer any help.


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## Jake (28 Jul 2009)

Great stuff. Good to see people are putting lots into this


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## thomas (28 Jul 2009)

ttcycle said:


> Just read this - I'll check with two people I know who are police/have contact within the police about getting permission to film and how easy this is/costs stc- I second you Jake it takes a lot to set up a shot for all the correct footage.
> 
> Am also emailing those two contacts to see if they're able to offer any help.




Can't you just use the old "public space" heave off, as an excuse? If you were just making a home movie that would be allowed. I know you're setting up a scene so it's a bit different.


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## ttcycle (28 Jul 2009)

Ah Thomas, common law like that doesn't have much sway in old Londinium! 
People need to register all sorts of things with the Police before it can be done -else it becomes illegal use of land - no such thing as public land if you don't have £££ coming out of your arse!

One thing that comes to mind if we need some of the shots to have traffic on the r hand side as well how will we achieve this if the road is closed off? I'm thinking in terms of large junctions ie Elephant and castle where there are several lanes of traffic or are we keepng it to smaller busy junctions?


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## ttcycle (28 Jul 2009)

Quoting my friend "That depends, but a busy London junction would cost a bomb, if
granted, due to the disruptions. You need a pretty good reason - I
think the councils/boroughs would grant that and then organise
policing and bill you, but it'd be in the thousands at least."

Like I said £££

Jesus....dig deep folks....


User3143 can we have some side shots/front photos to deem your suitability for this -let's call it a casting...lol
Do you play dead well?

It probably needs to be a bit cleaner image wise if it is to be taken up in a bigger way and to attract media interest.


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## ttcycle (28 Jul 2009)

Yep Police trainee suggests that we contact the Borough where we are planning to shoot in as each Borough is different with rules etc- have emailed a couple of people to check if they have info - one is used to organising marches another films a lot but not sure if he has exps of road closures.....

tenacity....

Probably need to think about locations as well


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## ttcycle (28 Jul 2009)

Other thoughts are..

Any folk have any contact with the guys on London fgss and other forums? 
Any luck with HGV people and linking in there?


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## CopperBrompton (28 Jul 2009)

ttcycle said:


> One thing that comes to mind if we need some of the shots to have traffic on the r hand side as well how will we achieve this if the road is closed off?


We'll just need a few of us to bring cars. I can think of one junction in the City that has traffic lights, is away from anything sensitive and is totally empty on a Sunday, so if we have to take the guerilla approach, it shouldn't be too problematic.


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## ttcycle (28 Jul 2009)

if people have cars - that solves the problem- re the general idea Ben - does the plenty of room quote still suit? this can probably be tweaked a bit maybe as having two slogans can take away the message.

Got some feedback from a friend - quoted directly below - he organises marches and protests and they get road closures for free-however unlikely for us:

Well right of assembly and protest, covered by the human rights act and common law.

It's a common tactic of the police to demand money for the expence of closing the road. This is bolloxs. The police must take reasonable steps to facillitate lawful protest.

I'm not sure if the same arguement applies to filming an educational video though, you might have to pay. On the other hand if your doing this for a charity or NGO you could ask the local MP in the area to write a letter to the local authority and police requesting they let you do it for free. You can do the same thing with local councilors as well. You might be able to tempt them with an offer of a photo op or something.

The last para is really interesting - may have to do things creatively a work in reverse ie get support from different people as well as councillors/MP's etc first before we make the vid so we can do it for free?

What do you guys think? Otherwise it's definitely the guerilla approach; have to be very careful re the square mile which is policed by the Specials not the Met - Origamist is right they are very on the ball with their patch.


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## CopperBrompton (28 Jul 2009)

ttcycle said:


> if people have cars - that solves the problem


I can bring one. Who else?[/quote]



> does the plenty of room quote still suit? this can probably be tweaked a bit maybe as having two slogans can take away the message.


I don't personally see a need for the closing slogan, but I put it in there to show that it could be incorporated if desired. 

My view is that what matters is the message, not the branding. Whether people see the video and poster as the same campaign or not isn't relevant in my view, but others may feel differently.


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## ttcycle (28 Jul 2009)

they should be the same thing- deliver the same message - have more impact- I detest pretentious marketing etc but the brand is the message in this case as it's what people will probably remember alongside the crushed bike stuff- god I should eat my own words that sounds up my own rear.

Plus if the message is memorable it can be used again for other no vid bits - makes the whole thing cohesive


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## g00se (28 Jul 2009)

Just off of the hip....

Why don't one of you guys organizing this email Boris Johnson? Like him or loath him, he just might jump on the pro-cycling angle of his and pull a few strings...


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## CopperBrompton (28 Jul 2009)

ttcycle, same message, agreed; but I disagree that the brand is the message. The message is the image of a crushed bike under a lorry.

goose, yes, I'm happy to do that as & when needed. I know someone who knows him, so might have a slightly more efficient route to him if required.


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## ttcycle (28 Jul 2009)

I know what you're saying Ben L - however in terms of virally spreading a message it needs to be memorable as not everyone will think to watch it.

I think essentially where 'branding' (jeez) will be useful is the none vid stuff wherever and however that gets developed.


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## CopperBrompton (28 Jul 2009)

I agree about the slogan for the posters, just not convinced we need it for the video. But, as I say, I'm not really bothered, so if others think we need it, no harm to include it.


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## ttcycle (30 Jul 2009)

Ok - got feedback re one of the guys that I emailed - was wanting to meet up to know where we are with this...so where are we?


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## CopperBrompton (30 Jul 2009)

Seeking a truck ...


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## ttcycle (1 Aug 2009)

update:


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## ttcycle (1 Aug 2009)

Update:

the email I sent to a contact has been forwarded on a few times-
copying the correspondence below - some food for thought about what we want to achieve overall- let me know what your thoughts are- my responses are in italics and names removed where necessary:

_Dear xxxxxxxx

I thought I'd contact you both regarding the campaign that I mentioned when I met you briefly at the meeting a couple of weeks ago.

A few of us dotted across the country on a cycling forum are trying to organise a grassroots educational campaign that involves cyclists and HGV drivers (hopefully). I suppose you're both familiar with the risk of undertaking large lorries/HGVs that has lead to deaths across the capital and the country-xxxx I know you have also got personal experience of this- this has been a longstanding issue and several safety vids have been produced but are a bit preachy and won't reach the general HGV or cycling public - the main point of the campaign is to produce a 30 second viral vid- we have camera and crew - looking into logistics right now and hopefully get people meeting in London to film it and discuss strategy. Have a Broadsheet friend who will help with a press release as we're looking to get this across into national media across the board and different mediums and make it a national rather than London centric campaign. There are also plans (less solid until we have the vid done) to guerilla sticker the back of buses (illegally as unsure in London if TfL would allow this), flyer and speak to cyclists/HGV community, link in with other cycle bodies CTC, LCC (this has started already) and a few others to name, get out a mass ride ie link with critical mass-all co-ordinated around certain times/dates etc? Basically scope for this to grow and be a large campaign; however, it needs people and people with skills and interest in it.

Let me know if you and or friends are able and interested in helping out on any level-organisational and or simple handing out/talking to people. Would be appreciated_

Forwarded on twice through different sources:

Hi all, 


Please read and respond if this is of interest.

I would like to gather a support team in the next few days to assist in the following...






Reply to me:





Hi xxxx

please note I have copied this to friends and family of Eilidh Cairns; a cyclist who was killed by an HGV in February. Kate, Eilidhs' sister, is also making a film.
If I may comment on your letter. 


You write: _"... the risk of undertaking large lorries/HGVs that has lead to deaths ..."_
Firstly; when cyclists are killed by HGVs it is not always a result of undertaking, whilst this definitely a dangerous maneuver, there are occasions when lorries take a left turn and kill cyclist even though the cyclist has not undertaken them.
Secondly; it is not only the action of the cyclist that is the cause of death as your statement implies (no doubt unintentionally). There is a "blame the victim" mindset only too common amongst the police and the CPS that needs to be challenged. The real cause of deaths is the existence of blind-spots in the drivers vision; as well as other factors such inattentiveness on occasions. This does not mean that cyclist should not be aware of the dangers that can arise.


I am more than willing to offer any editorial contributions (such as the ones above) and help out in any way I can. Please let me know.

My response:

_Hi XXX

Thanks for the email - my intention was not to 'blame the cyclist' which you have picked up on in your email as unitentional as I am a cyclist myself and even assertive and experienced cyclists have been affected by this. I was summarising a pre-emptive riding style which is what my fellow-forumers are pushing for the most. I am aware that by the length of HGV's and the room and manner in which they turn this also causes problems; I am also mindful that HGV's have a blind spot which could be improved with mirrors hence the necessity to link in with drivers of HGVs so that they are aware of:

a) the need for a mirror
 supportive of cautious and attentive driving

So it is really a two way process - there are a couple of routes that this campaign can take on as well as educationary for HGV drivers and cyclists- there is a need for HGV lorries to be equipped with the mirrors and also if possible funding provisions to be made on ammending appalling road designs. I'll take this back to the others on the forum and give you feedback when I have some - at present we're looking to get a HGV for the filming. 

Thank you for the offer of help - I will definitely take you up on that once things are clearer.



_What do you guys think in the scope this should take? Plus, what is happening with the acquring of a HGV? Seems many interested people who can lend a hand- the momentum seems to be slowing down a bit...come on guys lets shake the dust off and get going!


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## CopperBrompton (1 Aug 2009)

It's only the lack of a lorry that's holding things up now.


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## ttcycle (1 Aug 2009)

ok- Ben any thoughts on the above -ie broadening it out?

I've asked a mate who has contacts to see if anyone has a HGV -lots of license holders in her workplace apparently.

Is anyone working on this directly?


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## sheddy (1 Aug 2009)

Just remembered that I took my kids to one of these years ago http://www.truckfest.co.uk/ Problem is the festival sites are mainly grass. 
Alas only one show left - Haydock Park in Sept


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## thomas (1 Aug 2009)

> _There are also plans (less solid until we have the vid done) to guerilla sticker the back of buses (illegally as unsure in London if TfL would allow this),_



Sorry if this has already been covered but there are too many pages for me to search for an answer.

Would the stickers be those sort of "cyclists, do not undertake" ones?

If so, good idea!


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## ttcycle (1 Aug 2009)

Hi Thomas -yes in a nutshell but better hopefully! You interested in lending a hand?

Sheddy-nice thought..any folk going?
I thought these things only existed in the US!!!


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## Origamist (1 Aug 2009)

ttcycle said:


> *ok- Ben any thoughts on the above -ie broadening it out?*
> 
> I've asked a mate who has contacts to see if anyone has a HGV -lots of license holders in her workplace apparently.
> 
> Is anyone working on this directly?



TT - this was my concern about the video (see post 292). 

How about a dual approach, each sequence about 25 seconds or so. Sequence one with an undertaking cyclist and sequence two with a HGV overtaking and then left hooking a cyclist? This would emphasise the need for mutual responsibility/respect.


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## CopperBrompton (1 Aug 2009)

My view is that we can't do everything. The planned video already has two different slogans at the end, for the cyclist and trucker audiences respectively.

If someone wants to do a second video afterwards, by all means, but let's get the main one done first. 

This is the problem with doing things by committee: we get so many different views that nothing ever happens. I say we just need to find a truck and then get on with the original video.


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## Origamist (1 Aug 2009)

If it's proving hard to get a HGV, why not try Cemex - they might be keen to participate, or support the project in some capacity?

Ben, too many cooks...agreed. I'll bow out as my contributions are not moving the vid project forward.


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## ttcycle (1 Aug 2009)

Reply from Kate Cairns:

xxxx - thanks for this


xxx, can you comment on this?! How will it fit with our film? Can we collaborate?

xxxxx, I totally agree with your comments (obviously!). It is essential that the conclusion of this, however well intentioned, is not just another - its up the the cyclist not to go down the inside, otherwise they cant complain when they die - There is a very real chance of this happening. Esp in light of the phrasing of xxxxx email below. xxxx, ccing you in. I think its a great idea by the way, just have to be really careful not to re-emphasise incorrect assumptions (as in the police investigation into Eilidh's death which I wont go into here but xxx captures the main issue)

Have we got specific stats on how many experienced cyclists have died whilst the lorry was NOT turning left. I know of Eilidh and Anthony in Reading. They should highlight this.

After watching that TfL video and the size of those blind spots, a good guide on restrictions/ legislation would be to ban HGVs with any blind spot bigger than the area of x no of cyclists, and HGVs with a total blind area greater than y number of cyclists. This would by default keep the massive vehicles out unless they had very good blind spot reduction methods. ie an incentive as well as a stick.
*
Another point, xxxxx, I think it would have much more power if you got HGV drivers bought in. I think its unfair of the system and their companies to expect them to drive blind such dangerous vehicles in such hazardous spaces. They are probably under massive pressure to not complain and do the job. They are being placed in an unenviable situation. Like the quote on the TfL video - that it's not easy to drive in streets that are not really designed for the vehicles - or sthg of the like, ie get them to say how impossible it is.*

Sorry for the unorganised thought process.
xxx, I would really like to be kept in the loop with what you are putting out.
Best wishes
Kate






Second email:

Following my previous email Ive just seen this mail from you. Just to be pedantic:


The need for _several _mirrors - there are a number of blind spots (including in front of the cab) - Eilidh was apparently in the one on the d_river's front_ side
The need _to use_ the mirrors - they are only as good as the driver who uses them
The need for _other measures_ in addition to mirrors, ie cameras in cabs, proximity sensors, audio alarms when vehicles turning. (Eilidh's lorry had all the mirrors, and the police concluded that they were correctly positioned, and they concluded that the driver used them. She wasnt in a well known blind spot (on the nearside), she wasnt coming up the nearside, she wasnt filtering, yet he still crushed her.)
I would like to see the request that all companies sign up for the FORS the Freight Operators Recognition Scheme - its already done and it covers it all; training for drivers, vehicle standards etc.

Kate

I think we do need to broaden it out- it will have more impact - it doesn't all have to be done through the members on here as there are other individuals and organisations that will be on board - we just have to link it up and have a concerted effort that will be one big campaign rather than lots of little fractured efforts that don't go anywhere - feel free to disagree - we can duke it out-lol


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## ttcycle (1 Aug 2009)

Also forgot to add - gentleman who emailed re original comments has offered to contact his cyclist friend who also drives a HGV - not you is it User3143?!!

He may join the forum.

Origamist -any other capacity you can help out in?


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## magnatom (1 Aug 2009)

Ben Lovejoy said:


> My view is that we can't do everything. The planned video already has two different slogans at the end, for the cyclist and trucker audiences respectively.
> 
> If someone wants to do a second video afterwards, by all means, but let's get the main one done first.
> 
> This is the problem with doing things by committee: we get so many different views that nothing ever happens. I say we just need to find a truck and then get on with the original video.




I'm at my in-laws so limited time to write. However, Ben, I assumed that we would have footage for two videos from one days filming (i.e. different editing) one would aim at HGV drivers, and one at cyclists. The different slogans would be on the different videos. I'm sure Jake could tell us if this would make the filming too long, however, I think the similar shots could be used just with different editing.

I mentioned this previously, but it is certainly possible that within this thread that you missed it!


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## Speicher (1 Aug 2009)

I have finally been able to read through the last twenty or so pages of this thread to up-date the very kind offers from people. If I have made any errors, please let me know, and I will amend it. 

Would it be an idea to have this list as a separate thread? The list is getting longer, and as people offer their help, they are not necessarily aware of other offers. It might encourage some people to add their names when they know what sort of help is offered/needed. Even I had difficulty finding the most up-to-date version. 

*OFFERS OF HELP FROM FORUM MEMBERS*

*ttcycle *
She has experience with community campaigns. Also has a broad sheet contact, and has two film-maker friends - she will contact them.

*Magnatom *
knows a CEO of an Ad Agency
　
*scouserinlondon *
He is in web marketing. Used to work for a trucking magazine. Still has contact with the editor and will call him, when there is a "clear campaign and idea". He is also happy to help with any promotion stuff you need to do, from SEO and PPC campaigns to any website, to laminating and flyering. 
　
*Ben Lovejoy *
www.photographybybenlovejoy.com has offered his skills in still photography. He can also drive a 7.5 ton truck.
　
*Plax *
has offered to help with campaigning 
　
*Kaipath *
has shot videos before, he gives a link to one of them - I tried to copy the link, but it would not work on my computer. He says it is NSFW.
　
*karlos_the_jackal *
(www.myolondon.com) He has offered advertising skills which includes clean graffiti, I think this means it washes off.
　
*Jake*
He edits videos, makes websites. He has got a film crew, (but they usually film people with not much on). 
　
*GordyFaeEdinburgh*
He would be happy to host the website. He would also be able to help put a web-site together.

*Sh4rkybloke*
He has put together a video see post No 215 on page 22 for the link.

*Rhythm Thief*
He may be able to find a lorry we can use, but will need to ask the relevant people.

*Gabefleming*
Is a journalist and website editor for Nursing Times, and is happy to write any promotional copy, script for the video, or press releases. Also experienced with social media and would be happy to help with promoting the initiative through facebook, twitter etc. 

*Cotterpin*
He has volunteered to hand out leaflets to cyclists at junctions. He also has contacts with the LCC. He would be happy to co-ordinate giving out cards at the roadside, with the possibility of this being across the country.

*Nigelnorris*
He has spare hosting capacity and is familiar with blog/forum set-up and administration. He says his skills are not up to building sites from scratch.

*User3143*
He has offered to be the victim/cyclist in the video. He is free every Thursday and Friday, and is half an hour from London by train.


　
The following have also offered to help but not sure how they can help
Davywalnuts
wesa
semislickstick
Arch 
Jim Noir (says he can do home movies)
upsidedown


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## AnotherEye (2 Aug 2009)

ttcycle said:


> Also forgot to add - gentleman who emailed re original comments has offered to contact his cyclist friend who also drives a HGV - not you is it User3143?!!
> He may join the forum.
> Origamist -any other capacity you can help out in?


Here I am; I've joined the forum. The above mentioned is not actually a "cyclist friend" but someone who has posted on the CTC forum. I'll send him a private message today. As this thread is more than 40 pages I have not read it all so please forgive me if I cover ground that has already been covered.
Has a storyboard been made? If so, where can I see it?
TfL have recently released this video:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/cycling/11687.aspx?lid=switcher
It's about half way down the page.
I posted this comment on the CTC forum:
http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=27057
At first glance I thought 'Sharing the road together' is a good title but having watched it twice I really don't think that vehicles with 'blind spots' should be allowed on the roads without an escort. In the film the lorry driver says: _"Some of the roads in the city are not really built for LGV's so it can be quite a challenge sometimes"._
TfL claim: _"We've produced a training film to help cyclists and lorry drivers navigate London's busy roads - and each other - safely"_ but it appears to be aimed more at the cyclist; the cyclist advises _"don't undertake if LGV is indicating (unless the lights have only just turned red)"_. Nowhere does it insist that lorry drivers must always use their indicators or that they should never stop within the area of the advanced stop line.
The cyclist also says _"It's no-one else's responsibility, ultimately, to make sure that your safe. It's your (own) responsibility and I felt that very keenly ..."_. Whilst I think that this is good advice it should never be used to let a driver of the hook if s/he is at fault.


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## CopperBrompton (2 Aug 2009)

AnotherEye said:


> Has a storyboard been made? If so, where can I see it?


2-sec video clip of cyclist on wide, empty road
Caption: Plenty of room

2-sec video clip of cyclist taking primary in left-hand filter lane, cars in straight-ahead lane to right
Caption: Plenty of room

2-second video clip of cyclist taking primary in straight-ahead lane, cars in left filter-lane to right
Caption: Plenty of room

Still photo of lorry at lights, wide gap to its left, cyclist heading for gap
Caption: Plenty of room?

2-sec video clip of cyclist cycling up the left of the lorry and stopping at the lights

In-cab shot of driver checking wing mirror and looking above the cyclist, no cyclist visible

In-cab shot of driver applying left-hand indicator

In-cab shot of driver pulling away and turning left

In-cab shot of wing mirror, showing lorry centimetres from railings, but still looking above the height of the cyclist

Freeze video

Cut to still of mangled bike beneath wheels
Cut to still of crushed helmet
Cut to still of other debris

Video of sheet being pulled over body under lorry

Fade out to caption:
[Cyclist version] Don't let a lorry have a crush on you
[HGV driver version] Don't let your lorry have a crush on a cyclist


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## ttcycle (2 Aug 2009)

another quick update:

1.spoke to a friend who will try and utilise her contacts in the Specials police force in the city to try and help re road closures - not sure if this will lead to anything but worth a try.

2. Another interested party- able to help with publicity, has suggested flyering at Critical Masses and is interested in helping out in whatever shape he can.

3. Feedback from filmaker re road closures:
erm road closures are a pretty big deal, in the beeb (at least in documentary) can't be seen to be effecting situations, as there are massive legal implications, potential health & safety knock on effect.

if you do want to close a road i think it would cost lot of money, best to speak to 'film london' about how to go about it

but speaking from my own experience, depending on the size of the road, if it's pretty small you could hold & direct traffic during shooting, then let them through.

legally you would need to speak to the owner of the road (council/ local residents) and say you would like to film by the road and don't mention you'll be holding traffic. 

my advice would be find a very quiet area where you won't effect anyone, cheaper and easier.


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## magnatom (4 Aug 2009)

OK. I think the only thing holding this up is an HGV and HGV driver. Any progress on this? Can anyone help?


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## Origamist (5 Aug 2009)

For your information:


_Is there any chance you could post these on the forum. I dont know where to put them so people will see them - on the original rider down link or Eilidhs memorial ride, or somewhere else....?_

_I want to ask people to print off the jpeg onto sticker paper and stick these anywhere they see one of Boris's idyllic posters promoting cycling. (Or their friends and family as forum people will not be taking the tube where all the posters are situated)._

_The photo is an example._

_What do you think?_

_Im not too hot at that forum stuff so would really appreciate your help in posting._

_Look forward to hearing from you._

_Many thanks_

_Kate (Eilidhs sis) _


Images:


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## CopperBrompton (5 Aug 2009)

Hmmm. Must say I'm not convinced by that idea. 

First because the poster campaign is an excellent one, promoting cycling in London, and the addition of the sticker suddenly makes it seem dangerous (which it statistically isn't).

Second because it's so non-specific, I don't think it helps anyone avoid the degree of danger that does exist.


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## magnatom (5 Aug 2009)

I have to agree Ben. certainly a good sentiment, but not the right way to do it, IMO.

Still looking for an HGV/HGV driver! Without one this just won't happen...


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## CopperBrompton (5 Aug 2009)

Backup plan, if a few of us are willing to put our hands into our pockets for this one, is to hire a 7.5-tonne truck for the day.


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## Jake (5 Aug 2009)

someone will get killed for sure if that happens lol


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## ttcycle (5 Aug 2009)

I echo the above sentiments re the HGV sticker - seems too vague to be giving out the right message.

As for hiring a truck it depends how much it costs

Last ditch attempt from me in relation to a HGV - I'm going to contact a friend from school who I've lost proper contact with over the years; her father used to be a trucker and may have contacts that can help us.

Worth a try right?


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## CopperBrompton (5 Aug 2009)

Definitely worth a try.


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## ttcycle (5 Aug 2009)

Another thought is it possible to get Shaun/Admin to post a general announcement for a HGV owner/driver who might not be following this thread?


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## ttcycle (5 Aug 2009)

hmmm nice point User3143....

any of your colleagues fancy lending a hand?


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## magnatom (6 Aug 2009)

Ben Lovejoy said:


> Backup plan, if a few of us are willing to put our hands into our pockets for this one, is to hire a 7.5-tonne truck for the day.




I'd be happy to put something towards that (money as always is tight, but it's a good cause).


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## CopperBrompton (6 Aug 2009)

Looks like around £110 including VAT and insurance:
http://www.u-drive.co.uk/display.php?id=4


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## ttcycle (6 Aug 2009)

Looks like hiring a HGV is the best option? I'm seriously short of cash but could contribute something.

I surprisingly got a response from the old friend from school - her dad is long retired and sold the truck; it would also be difficult to mention it to him for contacts as apparently he was I quote 'through no fault of his own' involved in a cyclist death (which I had no idea about) when he used to drive the trucks so this would be too personal for him. However, because of this she felt there was a need for the video/campaign.


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## sheddy (6 Aug 2009)

How easy/hard is it to extract small sums from a Paypal account ?
If the main players set one up, and admin kept the appeal sticky, then I guess that sum could soon be raised (?)


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## Jake (6 Aug 2009)

i think before trying to get a lorry, a location should be found first. We may just be stuck with a bill for a lorry we cant use. anyone approached the councils?


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## AnotherEye (6 Aug 2009)

Jake said:


> i think before trying to get a lorry, a location should be found first. We may just be stuck with a bill for a lorry we cant use. anyone approached the councils?


And a driver?


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## magnatom (6 Aug 2009)

I think Ben has an HGV licence.


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## CopperBrompton (6 Aug 2009)

I'll scout out a location I have in mind.

As Lee says, a car licence is sufficient, and I've driven 7.5-tonne trucks before[1], so I'm happy to do that.

Ben

[1] http://www.benlovejoy.com/journeys/romania/ and http://www.benlovejoy.com/journeys/croatia/


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## sheddy (7 Aug 2009)

Just remembered this from Channel 5 - http://news.five.tv/send-a-story.php
Might be worth shooting an interview(s) in addition to the main video ?


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## trignflo (7 Aug 2009)

Ben Lovejoy said:


> Backup plan, if a few of us are willing to put our hands into our pockets for this one, is to hire a 7.5-tonne truck for the day.



7.5tonne may not convey the message as they are very low (compared to artics) and you can't get the 'blind spots' that an artic has.

advice of filming www.filmlondon.org.uk and from there advice on filming in london via filmunit@met.police.uk

Good Luck with your project

TnF


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## CopperBrompton (7 Aug 2009)

They aren't that low (about 12 feet high), and they have the same fixed blindspots (though with an artic the blindspots change as it turns).


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## ttcycle (7 Aug 2009)

hi another contact has confirmed that she is interested - has asked me to call her about what is happening - will send her an email to let her know the hold up is a HGV at present as the other stuff is TBC- she has forwarded correspondence to her bike related team and she is keen on guerilla stickering buses and HGVs.


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## CopperBrompton (7 Aug 2009)

An articulated truck would be great if we can get one, but it won't be a problem doing the filming with a 7.5-tonne one.


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## CopperBrompton (7 Aug 2009)

Nothing that camera angles can't take care of.

As I say, if we can get an articulated truck, fantastic, but so far we've had no luck with this. A 7.5-tonne truck would get the job done.


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## classic33 (7 Aug 2009)

Ben Lovejoy said:


> Nothing that camera angles can't take care of.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Tred carefully here. The minute anything is altered, the whole thing can be dismissed as nothing more than a cyclists rant.
> ...


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## CopperBrompton (7 Aug 2009)

Nothing will be 'altered', it's just a question of choosing our camera angles to illustrate the point. There's nothing fake about it: cyclists can be in the blind spots of 7.5-tonne trucks too.


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## thomas (8 Aug 2009)

Ben Lovejoy said:


> Nothing will be 'altered', it's just a question of choosing our camera angles to illustrate the point. There's nothing fake about it: cyclists can be in the blind spots of 7.5-tonne trucks too.



I'd be very careful on this! If people don't trust it, they'll ignore it.


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## CopperBrompton (8 Aug 2009)

There won't be anything about it to mistrust.


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## ttcycle (8 Aug 2009)

I think it is really important that we try and get an articulated vehicle to portray the blind spots most effectively - otherwise the other possible routes the campaign can go down ie mirrors etc would be hard to incorporate. Plus with a 7.5 ton truck the way the back of the vehicle swings round when it's negotiating a turn is also different to a articulated lorry - vital to capture this on the filming if at all possible as Kate -Ellidh's sister has pointed out that the way HGVs turn has an impact on cyclist safety especially if narrow roads in big cities aren't designed for long and large vehicles to negotiate the roads safely. It's good to be accurate with what we're producing; if getting a HGV does become impossible then we think again but we're nowhere near close to exhausting all the options yet.


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## classic33 (8 Aug 2009)

To those who set this up & to those who suggested it. 
Can I ask if everyone who has voiced an opinion on this contributed to the hire of a articulated lorry would you be willing to contribute to see the project through to its conclusion. This is the sticking point now, the actual vehicle.

Magnatom, as the person who set this up, Where would I send the £10. Joking aside(remember the question you put on here about getting your address). If not to your home address to the nearest post office.


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## magnatom (8 Aug 2009)

If we were to take donations for the HGV hire, I would be happy either to set up pay pal or take cheques etc. In fact I am probably the best person to do it, as everyone knows who I am in real life and I would have more to lose if I just ran off with the money! 

However, I agree that an artic would be best and hiring should be a fall back. ttcycle, what do you see as our options? If we have a list then we could assign a person to each option.

I certainly think we should be contacting companies and asking if they would be willing to help. I don't live in London, so I don't know who is best to contact, however, if someone gave me a list, I'd be happy to put together a letter asking for help. I've had some success in the past with this, and I could use my infamy to increase the chances of us getting noticed in the in-tray.

What do you think?


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## Jake (9 Aug 2009)

paypal is bad becusae its increasingly hard to get your money back from them and they charge more. best to do a bank transfer


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## classic33 (9 Aug 2009)

Right if we rule paypal out, how about direct payment into an account set up for the purpose. I'm willing to trust Magnatom with money when I send it & other than whats been on here I know nowt about him.

Magnatom if you feel happy doing this let the rest know. Sorry for picking on you. But this started out so well & now one thing is preventing it going through to its conclusion.


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## magnatom (9 Aug 2009)

I'm certainly happy to look after the money, although what do you mean you don't know who I am! (I'm a media daaaarling, don't you know!)

However, as ttcycle says there might be other options that we need to exhaust before we go for a hire. Lets give it another week or so, to see if we can get something sorted. Any ideas guys?


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## Speicher (9 Aug 2009)

It is a rather large long shot, as it were. In Moreton in Marsh, Gloucestershire, there is a Fire College, where they train Firemen. There is a detailed map of the College and all its facilities on their website, (fireservicecollege.ac.uk) I have been thinking about how they train rescue services with regard to large vehicles and whether they have hgv vehicles there. Or could you use the cab of a fire engine, but then you could not get the outside of the cab shots. So I am not sure if this is a good idea at all. 

Usually Moreton in Marsh is easily accessible from Paddington, but not until the end of August IIRC due to working on the line. So it also depends on when you wanted to do the filming. 

If this is too much of a long shot, just say so, I will not be offended, I was just trying to think of alternatives.


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## ttcycle (9 Aug 2009)

The options that I can think of are:

1. To contact LCC
2. To contact HGV companies within filming area
3. To contact HGV specific unions to mailshot their members?
4. To send out a speculative email to all contacts to see if anyone on the off chance has access to a HGV
5. Possibly contact corporates such as supermarkets/building trade or similar who would want maybe a credit at the end ie a logo if we could use one of their vehicles -though don't know if they'd want a branded vehicle in the vid!

I'm sure there's more but that's what I can think of off the top of my head. Does anyone else have any other sources of wisdom?

Speicher, Moreton is not a bad idea but it depends on whether we would be able to recreate the conditions of a busy junction at the training school.

Also just to let you all know Admin has set up a sub forum under campaigns that is called HGV deaths - can you guys list all the relevant threads so I can message him back to put them under that sub forum -unless you're happy for it to stay here.


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## Origamist (9 Aug 2009)

ttcycle said:


> Also just to let you all know Admin has set up a sub forum under campaigns that is called HGV deaths - can you guys list all the relevant threads so I can message him back to put them under that sub forum -unless you're happy for it to stay here.



http://www.cyclechat.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=19532&highlight=lorry

http://www.cyclechat.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=38862

http://www.cyclechat.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=36214

http://www.cyclechat.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=38158

http://www.cyclechat.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=20436


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## Speicher (9 Aug 2009)

I will try and contact the relevant person at the Fire College, Moreton.

However, if they are kind enough to reply, I would quickly be out of my depth regarding the details of the filming. Could I ask whoever it is to then speak to you, or Magnatom? I am a beginner as regards cycling.
I have tried to follow this thread, but do not understand the filming details enough to explain it to a third party.

The reason I though of Firemen, is because they are, very sadly, the ones involved in rescues from in or under vehicles.

Recreating a busy junction? IIRC the fire college is a very large site with lots of roads, but not many cars. That might need further thought.


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## ttcycle (9 Aug 2009)

working on point 4 of my posting right now!

Speicher no problem - you have my email and I suspect Magnatom's email (I assume he won't mind -since I quote he's a media Daaaarrrling!), Ben Lovejoy and Jake no doubt also have a good idea regards the filming- if we were allowed to take some of our civillian cars up there we could recreate a junction with traffic but it depends on what the training school would allow.

Speicher thanks for this - beginner or not ideas and input is always welcome - don't put yourself down

Another random idea:

Anyone interested in contacting Top Gear or the Gadget Show as they might have links with HGV drivers? we might be able to secure a vehicle that way?


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## Speicher (9 Aug 2009)

Civilian cars are allowed on the site, I know that from going swimming there, in a different life. I was labelling myself as a beginner because I do not want to "undo" all the hard work done so far, by going off at a tangent.


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## scouserinlondon (10 Aug 2009)

HI All

I've been away on holiday hence not responding. I'll have a look through all posts, but I'm still happy to ask my trucking mag editor friend to help and let us post on his forums to A, get debate going and B, blag a wagon and driver.

Is that still the plan?


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## magnatom (10 Aug 2009)

scouserinlondon said:


> HI All
> 
> I've been away on holiday hence not responding. I'll have a look through all posts, but I'm still happy to ask my trucking mag editor friend to help and let us post on his forums to A, get debate going and B, blag a wagon and driver.
> 
> Is that still the plan?



That would be great if you could do that!  I think we are pretty much sorted apart from getting an HGV and driver (ok location needs to be finalised, but I think that is relatively minor compared to getting the HGV/Driver)


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## Rhythm Thief (10 Aug 2009)

classic33 said:


> To those who set this up & to those who suggested it.
> Can I ask if everyone who has voiced an opinion on this contributed to the hire of a articulated lorry would you be willing to contribute to see the project through to its conclusion. This is the sticking point now, the actual vehicle.



If you can get to Birmingham to film it, I can get access to rigid and articulated vehicles in various different sizes, from the monster that I drive (and live in) to the smaller artics we use for local collections. I'm sorry I haven't been on here much recently, but what with moving house in the last few weeks things have been a little hectic ...


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## CopperBrompton (10 Aug 2009)

Thanks, RT!

Jake, could you get to Birmingham? I'm happy to do so.


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## Rhythm Thief (10 Aug 2009)

I'll phone the gaffer tomorrow and see if I can get permission to take some of the lorries out one Saturday.


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## Rhythm Thief (10 Aug 2009)

Jake said:


> i think before trying to get a lorry, a location should be found first. We may just be stuck with a bill for a lorry we cant use. anyone approached the councils?



I know plenty of locations around here to demonstrate the inadvisability of riding a bike up the inside of a truck. I've even had genuine run ins with cyclists at some of them.


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## CopperBrompton (10 Aug 2009)

Rhythm Thief said:


> I'll phone the gaffer tomorrow and see if I can get permission to take some of the lorries out one Saturday.


Brilliant. If they want the fuel costs covered, I'm sure we could have a whip-round to cover that.


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## ttcycle (11 Aug 2009)

RT brilliant news- Brum is no problem for me! Hopefully the film crew will be up for filming there!

RT what would it be like in terms of closures of the road in the areas you're thinking of - I know Birmingham well- which parts? Are the police/council particularly helpful with that - just thinking as in relation to just filming on the sly it will be very difficult to get proper footage as shots will need to be set up with equipment etc.


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## ttcycle (11 Aug 2009)

updates:

Have a couple of possible leads on a HGV - one possibly in Midlands and one possibly in London - nothing confirmed at the moment. Will keep you all in the loop.


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## Jake (12 Aug 2009)

Good news about the driver and lorry, don't think we will be able to get there though. don't have a car and the volunteers at work/friends and the equipemnt is all in london. I don't thin its going to be possible. bit of a pain that. I know is only about 3hrs or so away. I don't think we can. Is there anything we can do in london to support? I was one of the first to stand up and be counted and want to do my part. groan.


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## sheddy (12 Aug 2009)

No use in August, but would Brum Uni have a Student Film Unit ?


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## ttcycle (14 Aug 2009)

Hi MP

We haven't got a HGV confirmed yet - problem is if we have a HGV in the Midlands; the filmcrew can't make it up there as they're all London based. Will try and see what can be sorted but no solid plans yet.


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## Theseus (14 Aug 2009)

sheddy said:


> No use in August, but would Brum Uni have a Student Film Unit ?



When I was there the student union was called the Guild and they had a TV studio called Guild TV. I spent many happy hours behind a camera at concerts or filming sports. Probably the reason I flunked the first year.


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## Rhythm Thief (17 Aug 2009)

Hmmmm ... I've handed in my notice this morning, so I think my chances of borrowing a truck have diminiished dramatically! However, I'm happy to chip in for hire of an HGV, and to drive it (in London) should that be necessary.


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## sheddy (17 Aug 2009)

Breaking News - Rhythm Thief brainwashed by online cycling Forum !


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## Rhythm Thief (17 Aug 2009)

> What???
> 
> Where are you going?



I've signed on with an agency, who will (with any luck) be sending me to transport apple slurry in tankers from the cider mills. I'll be based in Ledbury, a pleasant rural 15 mile commute away, so I should be getting back on my bike, at last.


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## ttcycle (27 Aug 2009)

I hope this hasn't reached a stalemate?! 

I haven't had any feedback from people I tried to drum re HGV - anyone know how much it is and whether it's possible to hire an artic? No idea on this one.


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## ttcycle (27 Aug 2009)

hmmm I'm bit snowed under at present but will look into options as it's ready to go apart from this. Any contributions/ideas would be fantastic from others.


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## classic33 (27 Aug 2009)

http://www.truckandvanhire.co.uk/car-hire.asp?MODE=CATEGORY&VC=3
& 
http://www.palmerandmartin.com/hire-prices.php

Are we still willing to put our hands into hire one for the video shoot


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## ttcycle (28 Aug 2009)

RT/User3143 - are either of you guys ok to drive a HGV down in London as if we hire the right kind of vehicle we'll need someone with the right license?

Who can contribute £10 to hiring a HGV- more the merrier? 

Jake - you still got a film crew?

Once we're confirmed that we are hiring (classic33 the links were great), the other parts ie road closures etc can be sorted out and chased up.


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## CopperBrompton (28 Aug 2009)

ttcycle said:


> Who can contribute £10 to hiring a HGV- more the merrier?


Yep.


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## ttcycle (28 Aug 2009)

Update:

Feedback from friend - Police don't deal with road closures in square mile - it's through corporation of London - Ben you mentioned some time ago that you knew a location to film that would be perfect- do you know which Borough within the city limits it falls within? Waiting on this friend to find out a contact for me -the personal approach is better than a generic - to whom it may concern jobby.


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## classic33 (29 Aug 2009)

ttcycle said:


> RT/User3143 - are either of you guys ok to drive a HGV down in London as if we hire the right kind of vehicle we'll need someone with the right license?
> 
> Who can contribute £10 to hiring a HGV- more the merrier?
> 
> ...



Count me in. Given the effort some have put into this, its nowt.


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## CopperBrompton (29 Aug 2009)

ttcycle said:


> Ben you mentioned some time ago that you knew a location to film that would be perfect- do you know which Borough within the city limits it falls within?


It's EC2 - not sure of the Borough. Will be passing close-ish by on Sunday, so will try to check (and grab a snapshot) if I get time for a detour.


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## Origamist (29 Aug 2009)

Ben Lovejoy said:


> It's EC2 - not sure of the Borough. Will be passing close-ish by on Sunday, so will try to check (and grab a snapshot) if I get time for a detour.



Looks like City of London for EC2 with only one exception (Hackney - EC2A): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EC_postcode_area

If you need a tenner, I can raid my sad collection of 5ps...


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## HJ (3 Sep 2009)

Here is an idea from Denmark, now if we can just get some cyclist like those to go with the road marking...


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## Origamist (3 Sep 2009)

That's funny, I was thinking of a similar stencil in connection with the superhighways revamp. They could be deployed (ideally) in the part of the ASL that would be in a HGV's frontal blindspot. 

The problem is encroachment though - the Danes adhere to signage and road markings, here most people don't give a toss because of the authorities' laissez-faire approach to enforcement.


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## ttcycle (10 Sep 2009)

Ben L - did you get the road checked out? What's it called - I need to work out if it's in the square mile of the city as I have a named contact in the Corporation of London to contact re road closures.

A mate of mine emailed this photo to me today -stuff is happening so we need to decide if people want to hire a HGV and chip in - and if people/organisations are carrying out other bits it might be worth contacting them etc.

However, this needs people to do this.

Who is still in? Would be a shame to shelve this now.


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## classic33 (10 Sep 2009)

Still willing to "chip in" the £10. 
Hard to say no, given it me that suggested it for the hiring of the lorry.


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## magnatom (11 Sep 2009)

Sorry! Been buying/selling the house, on holiday, watching my wifes belly grow with our third child, and working like a mad man! This thread fell under my radar. Sorry.

I'm certainly up for helping with money etc, and I am more than happy to accept any money/book HGV etc. Everyone knows who I am, so I have the most to loose from running off with the money!

Not sure if I could actually make it to any filming, but if someone organises a place and a time, if I can make it, I certainly will. 

If there is anything else I can do, let me know!


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## Rhythm Thief (12 Sep 2009)

ttcycle said:


> RT/User3143 - are either of you guys ok to drive a HGV down in London as if we hire the right kind of vehicle we'll need someone with the right license?
> 
> Who can contribute £10 to hiring a HGV- more the merrier?



Yes, I'm happy to do both these things. All I ask is that I get plenty of notice, as I'm often busy with the band on weekends.


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## ttcycle (12 Sep 2009)

Ok 6 people to date-still not enough for a HGV -have just bumped the ping threads-haven't resorted to PM's yet!

Yeah there should be plenty of notice RT as logitistically there is so much to be done...which reminds me; any folks prepared to help with organising bits 'if' we can get a HGV as I can't practically carry this by myself

Magnatom - sounds hectic! Hope the little sprog doesn't turn out too troublesome!!


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## ttcycle (12 Sep 2009)

classic 33's links on page 50 indicate max cost for a day is £150- it may be more as it might not be practical to hire for just a day etc.


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## sheddy (12 Sep 2009)

Has anything been set up for contributions ? 

Why not go ahead on the basis that if the HGV hire falls down/not enough raised, would folks be happy for any monies raised to be sent on to the Cyclists Defence Fund ?


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## ttcycle (12 Sep 2009)

Hi sheddy

nice idea but the only problem with that is as we're all across the country so it's not as straightforward and would take time to set up and co-ordinate so may be too much work in the end if it wasn't for a solid outcome- magnatom mentioned some time back that he was prepared to collect the cash as transfers or paypal but to my knowledge this hasn't been set up yet and logistically I haven't thought about it. Hopefully a contribution from 15 people if we're going to meet the minimum costs shouldn't be too tricky.


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## classic33 (13 Sep 2009)

We have a person willing to accept the payments for the project. 
So would everyone here be willing to send the payments to him and if the project for whatever reason fails to come off are we all happy for the money raised to be forwarded to the CDF?

Some on here have put a fair amount of time & effort on this & I'd just not want it to fail now. Unable to give the time, so I raised the question of us paying for the HGV.


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## CotterPin (14 Sep 2009)

Happy to donate a tenner as well


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## Sh4rkyBloke (14 Sep 2009)

Count me in for the tenner - sorry I have been missing in action (so to speak) of late, although I can't claim anywhere near the level of life changes that Mags has been going through... I'm obviously just lazy! 

I thought there were some plans/ideas to approach a local HGV firm to see about some form of non-contributory sponsorship (i.e. use of an HGV rather than cash) to get them some good press by being involved, and to keep the costs down... has this been shelved?

Also, is there any mileage in some form of contact with the people (Gov?) that run the Think Bike campaign / Drink Driving etc. to see whether there is any possibility of it being done "professionally" given that there have been so many deaths recently?

Just some thoughts...


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## ttcycle (14 Sep 2009)

Those are very good ideas Shr4ky - is there anyone that is able to take them on? I know I can't at this moment as heading into hospital tommorow so will be out of action myself for a short while.


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## CopperBrompton (14 Sep 2009)

It's been done professionally twice, once by RoSPA and again by the Met Police. Unfortunately both videos are very long and tedious and unlikely to gain much of an audience.


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## magnatom (14 Sep 2009)

So should I look into setting up a pay pal payment link for this? If so I could probably set it up within a day or so. 

Before we do, we should decide what to do if enough money isn't raised, or if we end up with extra.


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## ttcycle (15 Sep 2009)

If we end up with extra there is always the chance that we can use it for other things such as flyer and stickers etc if it was what seemed like the best plan.


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## Sh4rkyBloke (15 Sep 2009)

Ben Lovejoy said:


> It's been done professionally twice, once by RoSPA and again by the Met Police. Unfortunately both videos are very long and tedious and unlikely to gain much of an audience.


Is it worth approaching them with our more succinct idea to see what they think? (along with details of how it will be distributed, who the target audience are etc.)


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## classic33 (15 Sep 2009)

magnatom said:


> So should I look into setting up a pay pal payment link for this? If so I could probably set it up within a day or so.
> 
> Before we do, we should decide what to do if enough money isn't raised, or if we end up with extra.



No longer use paypal. Will cheque suffice & you make an equal paypal payment on my behalf?

If extra is raised or not enough raised there are other ideas that have been raised in this thread where that extra can be spent.

I'm for setting up an account seperate from any of your own, for your own protection. Possibly from outside of here(CC).


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## CotterPin (16 Sep 2009)

ttcycle said:


> If we end up with extra there is always the chance that we can use it for other things such as flyer and stickers etc if it was what seemed like the best plan.



I would certainly agree that if we cannot get the video off the ground immediately we should produce the flyers and stickers, and maybe work out how we can distribute them on the ground. This is something I am happy to help with.


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## magnatom (22 Sep 2009)

Ok then.

I have had a look at my paypal account. I can request money from anyone if I have your e-mail address. 

You give me your e-mail address, I send an e-mail via pay-pal asking for £10. You use the link to pay the money into my pay pal account.... and I run off to the Bahamas! (I won't honest!)

Anyway, that is how it appears to work. So are we wanting to do this? Do we have a location, a film crew, some actors, and some props?


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## dmoan (23 Sep 2009)

Magnatom - you have pm.

Sorry, I haven't contributed to the thread, but I'm happy to chip in £10 to help out.

Send me an email request for a PayPal payment and I'll sort it out later.


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## CotterPin (23 Sep 2009)

dmoan said:


> Magnatom - you have pm.



Ditto

PS - looks like there has been action on the London Fixed Gear Forum (http://www.londonfgss.com/thread29719-6.html). Did anyone hear get to attend the meeting on Tuesday night in London? Should - and how can - we work with these guys?


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## ttcycle (23 Sep 2009)

I can't see any problems with linking up with them - saves any needless repitition and always good to have more people on board to pool resources - didn't make the meeting as had no idea it was happening! Maybe another meeting  with them once we've got hopefully enough funds for a HGV- would be good to get everyone together as well to fully decide what people want done in terms of the campaign as that's still a bit grey and undecided.

Magnatom you should have a pm from me as well.

Suppose there's a need to be speedy with this


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## AnotherEye (23 Sep 2009)

CotterPin said:


> Ditto
> 
> PS - looks like there has been action on the London Fixed Gear Forum (http://www.londonfgss.com/thread29719-6.html). Did anyone hear get to attend the meeting on Tuesday night in London? Should - and how can - we work with these guys?



I was there, it was a good meeting. We split up into a number of different working groups. I wasn't in the media group but I have linked them to this thread.

There will be a website soon(?).

BTW; count me in for £10

Gerry


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## magnatom (23 Sep 2009)

Hi Guys,

Sorry, I've been away at an all day meeting today so have only just got in the internet! I'll sort out the payments tomorrow.


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## magnatom (24 Sep 2009)

Hi Guys,

I've sent the first lot of paypal requests. We'll see how this works. If no-one objects I'll list the names of those who pay the £10 and I'll let you know how much we have collected as it comes in.

AnotherEye,

Hi! A website will be set up. At the moment the priority is the video (the hardest to organise) but we will get onto the web site soon...


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## magnatom (27 Sep 2009)

Hi Guys,

Thanks to everyone who has contributed so far! The total at the moment is £65 (this includes £10 from me, which I haven't put into my paypal account, but why pay myself to take it back out and get charged for it!!)

As no-one has objected, I'll list who I have had monies from. If anyone doesn't want to be listed, just let me know and I will put you in as an anon.

ttcycle
classic33
speicher
dmoan
cotterpin
magnatom

...have all contributed. Thanks guys. We are well on the way.


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## Dayvo (27 Sep 2009)

Mags!

PM me your address and I'll send a tenner your way! 

But don't tell anyone; I'll just be anon!


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## magnatom (27 Sep 2009)

Dayvo said:


> Mags!
> 
> PM me your address and I'll send a tenner your way!
> 
> But don't tell anyone; I'll just be anon!




Good man! 

A PM is on its way...


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## ttcycle (27 Sep 2009)

Nice one everyone!

Would it be appropriate to ask Admin/Shaun if we could have an announcement for this to try and drum up more funds?


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## Origamist (27 Sep 2009)

Can you pm me the Paypal details, Mags.


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## classic33 (27 Sep 2009)

We're getting there, slowly, but at least we're going.


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## magnatom (27 Sep 2009)

PM's sent. 

For anyone else wantng to donate... you send me your e-mail address and I send a paypal request ro you for a donation. Simples. 

I'll PM admin, to see if he can make an announcement.


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## magnatom (27 Sep 2009)

Oh and we are at £75 now. Thanks User!


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## magnatom (4 Oct 2009)

Sorry I've been a bit out of the loop this week.

Anyway we now have monies from:

ttcycle
classic33
speicher
dmoan
cotterpin
magnatom
User
User1314

(all anonumously of course! )

So the total stands at £85.

Keep it coming!


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## magnatom (6 Oct 2009)

£95 now with the additional donation from origamist! 

Many thanks

How much was the hire again? Is Ben still around? Haven't seen him for a while.


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## ufrasia (7 Oct 2009)

Hello Cycle Chat,

I'd really appreciate it if you would help us with our campaign. 

You may be aware that 8 cyclists have been killed by lorries on London roads so far this year. We believe it is unreasonable to expect cyclists to share the road with lorries that can't 'see' them. We are petitioning the government to implement stricter LGV (Large Goods Vehicle) safety standards. These standards would prohibit unsafe lorries from entering the congestion zone during peak hours. Safe lorries would be granted permission via a permit. 

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/LGV-Cycle-Safety/ 

One of the cyclists killed was a friend of mine. She absolutely loved cycling in London. In memory of her we would really like to make London one of the most cycle friendly cities in the world. 

Thanks,

Jo


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## Origamist (7 Oct 2009)

ufrasia said:


> Hello Cycle Chat,
> 
> I'd really appreciate it if you would help us with our campaign.
> 
> ...



Hi Jo, 

Welcome to the forum.

I created a new thread for your petition a few days ago here:

http://www.cyclechat.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=932131&postcount=1


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## ttcycle (7 Oct 2009)

Hi Jo

welcome - have signed your petition which origamist posted a while back.

Mag- Ben may be abroad - I have wondered the same about Jake who's not been on the commuting forums for some time - would need him et al for filming.

Maybe will be worth a ping or a pm when we're got funds and can move forward with this- Classic33 is trying again to contact HGV companies to see if they'll loan us out a HGV - if we can wing that one then the funds can be used on other items.

Hire was £145 from memory but don't quote me-maybe more if we need it for more than one day


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## CopperBrompton (7 Oct 2009)

Sorry, things got busy, but I'm always on email when travelling. Have dropped Mag a PM.


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## classic33 (28 Oct 2009)

Two replies, sofar


28 October 2009

Our ref: WS/091026-SL-FT(Please quote reference on all correspondence)


Dear 


Thank you for your email correspondence of 6 October concerning the HGV and Cyclist Safety campaign. 

I empathise with your concern, being a keen cyclist and supporter of cycling myself. It is my belief that many people in Britain want to cycle, and do in fact own bikes, but feel the road is too dangerous and the cycling provisions too poor.

The Lib Dems are committed to promoting the use of the bicycle and improving road safety. We are also committed to securing modal shift towards public transport, in this instance using rail freight instead of increasing the number of HGVs on the road. In the September 2009 Transport policy paper, the Lib Dem vision for the future is a zero carbon transport system that uses a new network of High Speed Rail which would free up existing railway lines for more passengers and freight, and allowing greater scope for freight expansion, as outlined in our policy paper Fast Track Britain.

We do recognise that road freight will never disappear entirely. In these cases we encourage the development of green technologies to reduce the environmental impact of the HGV and new regulation to improve conditions for other road users. 

To combat the problems caused by HGVs such as increased congestion and creating difficulties for pedestrians and other road users, we have introduced a new initiative regarding Satellite Navigation Devices. In April this year I tabled Early Day Motion 1252 which aims to ensure that all Sat Navs require the setting of vehicle width, height and weight before the journey begins, with a requirement that HGV manufacturers install Sat Navs that are suitable for the vehicles in question. To date 44 MPs have signed it, showing some clear support for the concept. 

If you have not already done so, you might like to ask your local MP, Linda Riordan, to sign EDM 1252. For my part, I will continue to press for a solution to this problem.

I hope this is helpful.

Yours sincerely
Norman Baker MP

Lib Dem Shadow Transport Secretary

Frances Tuddenham

Office of Norman Baker MP

Liberal Democrat Shadow Secretary of State for Transport

MP for Lewes

*AND*

Dear

Thank you very much for your email asking if David Cameron will support your campaign.

David receives a huge number of requests from all over the country for all sorts of excellent causes. Sadly he cannot support them all and I do hope you understand. 



Yours sincerely,

Alice Sheffield 

Office of David Cameron MP 
House of Commons 
London SW1A 0AA 


Maybe its just me, but it appears that other than those on this thread, most of whom have put more time & effort than me into trying to get it off the ground, we're on our own.

On the lorry & money side. To those who have responded on this thread I am assuming that in trying to raise the money for the hire, we will also have to consider insurance & fuel in the cost.

Sorry for making it seem poliltical, its not. The three main party leaders were contacted. Two have responded, sort of. Leaving only one outstanding silence.


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## very-near (28 Oct 2009)

Without wading through 55 pages of this thread, has anyone contacted Boris Johnson's office given he was nearly killed (on camera) earlier this year in London by a HGV.

Having him on side would carry a lot more weight wouldn't it ?


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## classic33 (30 Oct 2009)

Response sofar

"The Mayor would like to thank you for your interest in his work and he is keen to answer your query as quickly and fully as possible. As you will appreciate, he receives very large amount of correspondence but he is committed to responding to your query within 20 working days.


However, the Greater London Authority (GLA) will only respond to queries that relate to its work and will refer relevant queries to the appropriate functional body for them to reply e.g. transport related queries will be referred to Transport for London (TfL).


Please note that the GLA does not accept unsolicited job applications or C.V's. Information on current vacancies is available on our website at: http://www.london.gov.uk/jobs.jsp

Thank you for taking the time to write to the Mayor of London, Boris Johnson.


Yours truly

Public Liaison Unit"


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## magnatom (6 Nov 2009)

Hi Guys,

I've had a lot going on recently which meant I didn't have time to focus on this at all. However, here I am again.

I have recently had some money from Ben Lovejoy and Spinney, so thanks guys! (Spinney I have yet to bank the cheque, but I will do that over the next few days).

So are we still up for this?


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## ttcycle (6 Nov 2009)

yes from me maggers 

if we've still got people willing to muck in we can get this going.

Anyone know what happened to Jake? We'd need him to contact his filmcrew neighbours!

How much have we got raised so far?


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## magnatom (6 Nov 2009)

ttcycle said:


> yes from me maggers
> 
> if we've still got people willing to muck in we can get this going.
> 
> ...




I think it is £95. I'll need to check and get back.


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## ttcycle (6 Nov 2009)

hmmm I think we're still short of about £50 - £60 - £70 to be sure to hire a HGV


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## magnatom (11 Nov 2009)

Right folks, it looks like we are almost there. Thanks to a donation from Davyo , we are now at £125 in the coffers!


So we are nearly there, which means we might actually have to do this!

I'll be PMing volunteers soon to try and get the show on the road!


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## Cab (11 Nov 2009)

How much more cash required?


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## Sh4rkyBloke (11 Nov 2009)

Ooops, sorry guys 'n' gals.. I did say I'd be happy to donate to the cost and then promptly forgot all about this thread 

I don't remember it popping back in the list under the 'new posts' link though, yet it seems to have more in it than last time - very strange!

Mags, I shall get my organised head on and sort out sending some dosh via PayPal (IIRC that's how you want it).


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## magnatom (12 Nov 2009)

Cab,

I think hire was about £145 or so.

Thanks Sharky, I know how easy it is to plan to do something later and then forget. I do it all the time!

Paypal is great, just send me a PM with your e-mail address and I'll send you a request.

Dave


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## classic33 (12 Nov 2009)

£15 will take it to £160. 
Will be on the way to tomorrow. Stop on the account at present due to non-receipt of card replacement.


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## magnatom (17 Nov 2009)

Thanks classic. Have I already e-mailed you? I can't remember.

Today I have just received a cheque for a further £14 towards the total. I think the payee wishes to remain anonymous. Many thanks!

So that takes the totaliser to £139. 

Do we need to start another thread somewhere to alert those elsewhere that we have some funds to do this and if we can everyone together, then it is a goer. Or should we PM those who previously suggested they would help?


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## ttcycle (17 Nov 2009)

Both might help as can get more interested parties that way-- jeez Mag - I thought you'd done a runner with the funds and brought yourself a new Ribble....


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## Rhythm Thief (17 Nov 2009)

I'm still happy to drive the truck ... just give me plenty of notice.


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## magnatom (17 Nov 2009)

ttcycle said:


> Both might help as can get more interested parties that way-- jeez Mag - I thought you'd done a runner with the funds and brought yourself a new Ribble....



I'm far too honest to use it towards a bike!...... Although, I could do with some new lights...

I see you have started looking for Jake. Good stuff!

Thanks RT. I think to get everyone we will have to organise in advance anyway.


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## magnatom (17 Nov 2009)

We are now at £154. 

Many thanks to Classic33 for the donation. It seems we now have enough for HGV hire. We have a driver, we just need someone to film it. Lets hop Jake turns up. If not we will have to look for other help.

I might be able to get someone to film it, unfortunately it would have to be in Glasgow though. An option, but probably a fall back.


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## ttcycle (17 Nov 2009)

I could ask my two filmmakers again - though they both said yes and then flaked out..worth a chase if Jake has dropped off the online earth for good

otherwise there is always sunny glasgow...we could all have the 'magnatour' on our bikes of mag's daily commute that I'm sure many of us have seen on here! 
oooh that was the bit where that bloke cycled on the pavement...that was the bit where the silver golf left hooked me...you get the gist...!!


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## ttcycle (26 Nov 2009)

No response from Jake - that's unfortunate - I hope he's ok.

Does anyone know any filmcrew...sheesh this is like starting from scratch again - I'll ask some bods I know.


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## ttcycle (30 Nov 2009)

Had an informal contact with Trek Bikes.. he was wanting some feedback about what we want to do with the vid and the other parts of the campaign as he'd like to help out behind the scenes and might be able to put us in touch with the right people. 
So what feedback...?


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## magnatom (30 Nov 2009)

ttcycle said:


> Had an informal contact with Trek Bikes.. he was wanting some feedback about what we want to do with the vid and the other parts of the campaign as he'd like to help out behind the scenes and might be able to put us in touch with the right people.
> So what feedback...?



Right. You've suggested via PM we need to refocus our efforts on this one. 

Watch this space folks.


P.S. I still have the money!


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## Speicher (30 Nov 2009)

I had an idea the other morning, probably at about 3am. 

Does anyone know who makes the articulated trucks? Presumably they start in all white paintwork, before transfers and names, logos are put on them. If you were able to use a white lorry, devoid of names, does this get round the idea of people being hesitant about being associated, however loosely, with "accidents" ie bad publicity instead of good publicity.

I have absolutely no idea who makes trucks, or what the process is. I presume they have large turning areas, and some test areas, and drivers though. Just a thought, please dismiss it if you think it is impractical.


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## ttcycle (30 Nov 2009)

Ok can I suggest if there are ideas that people have- post them and also if there's anything that crops up please that you suggest, please run with them and research etc to see if it's viable as well as posting- so we can get this moving again. More people = big task becomes less work!

Re the above Speicher would you be able to find out at all?


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## Speicher (30 Nov 2009)

I am not sure I can. I know nothing about lorries, or who makes them.
Perhaps I could pm Rhythm Thief and see if he has any ideas of how to pursue this.


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## ttcycle (30 Nov 2009)

that would be great Speicher!


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## Speicher (30 Nov 2009)

Rhythm Thief, I am sure, would know trillions more about trucks, than I would. I have sent him an explanatory pm and linked it to the previous page. I expect, like lots of other people, it depends on his workload etc. I do not think I can name any truck manufacturers. We get lots of trucks carrying/colllecting vegetables etc around here, but with very obscure European names.


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## Rhythm Thief (30 Nov 2009)

Paccar are a big multinational who build DAF and Foden trucks, among others, up in Cheshire.
Scania have dealerships all over the country.
Volvo.
Renault.

Whether any of these people would be open to hiring or lending a lorry is another matter. Most hire places give them out in plain white livery so I don't think that aspect would be a problem. Hire places in London seem to be surprisingly thin on teh ground, but include Morgan Elliott ltd in Croydon and Easirent in Hoddesdon. 
Trailer hire is more difficult ... I _might_ be able to arrange to borrow one from my former employer (no promises, mind), but otherwise we'll have to find somewhere to hire one. A quick google search for "45' trailer hire" didn't get me anything ... perhaps someone else can have a go?
Hope this helps!


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## ttcycle (30 Nov 2009)

ok feedback from Trek contact is - if we can get the script for the vid out to him he'll let me know if it's going to hinder our chances 

People happy with me to send the script of sorts that Ben drafted some time ago? wherever it is on this post......


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## CopperBrompton (30 Nov 2009)

Storyboard is here: http://www.cyclechat.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=820618#post820618

My project timings have now changed, so I'm around much of December then away all of January and most of Feb. Any chance we could do this between xmas and new year? Quiet roads, and an excuse to duck out of family stuff ... :-)


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## magnatom (30 Nov 2009)

ttcycle said:


> ok feedback from Trek contact is - if we can get the script for the vid out to him he'll let me know if it's going to hinder our chances with getting ****** on board.
> 
> People happy with me to send the script of sorts that Ben drafted some time ago? wherever it is on this post......





Aye! No problem.

Folks, I think it is also worthwhile taking some of this off board. There seems to be a core group that keep posting here, so it might be worth taking this off board to speed up the organisation. This would also allow us to pass around documents etc and to comment on them. I have an ideaof who might want to be involved and I will PM them later, however, if you are keen to be involved let me know. 

We will of course keep the forum updated and involved, taking it off will just improve our efficiency!


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## magnatom (30 Nov 2009)

Ben Lovejoy said:


> Storyboard is here: http://www.cyclechat.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=820618#post820618
> 
> My project timings have now changed, so I'm around much of December then away all of January and most of Feb. Any chance we could do this between xmas and new year? Quiet roads, and an excuse to duck out of family stuff ... :-)




Ducking out of family stuff!

Personally my availability over the next few months is poor. I'm moving house in just over two weeks and my wife will be poping another sprog some time in January. But I don't think I need to be at any shoot in person.


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## ttcycle (30 Nov 2009)

Going to be tricky for me to get this done before Christmas as I'll be away with relies for a few days -groan- bloody hell Ben, you don't ask for much do you?!! think RT needed a bit of notice to drive the HGV.

script of sorts emailed to contact.

Good suggestion mags


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## classic33 (3 Dec 2009)

Speicher said:


> I had an idea the other morning, probably at about 3am.
> 
> Does anyone know who makes the articulated trucks? Presumably they start in all white paintwork, before transfers and names, logos are put on them. If you were able to use a white lorry, devoid of names, does this get round the idea of people being hesitant about being associated, however loosely, with "accidents" ie bad publicity instead of good publicity.
> 
> I have absolutely no idea who makes trucks, or what the process is. I presume they have large turning areas, and some test areas, and drivers though. Just a thought, please dismiss it if you think it is impractical.



One response sofar. Don't know what will come of it though. Never thought of going to the manufacturer either.

Dear Mr

We inform you that your message has been passed to the right department to deal with your requirement.

Best Regards

Iveco CustomerCenter


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## magnatom (23 Dec 2009)

Hi Guys,

I'd just thought I would remind everyone that I still have the money for the HGV hire. In fact as nothing specific had been organised I have stopped accepting money until something concrete is set out.

I did PM a few folk (3 got back a few didn't) about taking this off forum to get something organised. Are any of those who I PM'ed but didn't reply interested (I know how easy it is to forget to reply)?

If this doesn't go forward (which would be a shame) we will have to agree an appropriate use for the generously provided funds.


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## classic33 (31 Dec 2009)

Further response from Iveco. They don't seem to feel that there is much that can be done on this matter, from the manufactuer's side of things is how I read the reply.

*Dear mr. 

thank you for your mail.

As an industry there is little on the horizon to address this type of issue other than ultrasonic sensors monitoring the area to the side of the cab. 

As far as UK is concerned we are aware of one operator, Cemex, who have covered their vehicles with warnings to cyclists.

This type of safety issue is generally more the sphere of organisations like ROSPA who are active on a national basis and have strong relationships with the Police Commercial Vehicle Education Unit (CVEU).

Best Regards
Iveco CustomerCenter
ContactUs Service*


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## ttcycle (31 Dec 2009)

that's dissapointing classic- sounds like they don't want to do anything rather than can't do - in some cases the pressure needs to come from the bottom up to the top to change the companies.

Are we still on for this, I know I am....


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## classic33 (31 Dec 2009)

Have to admit the response isn't what I'd expected. A chance for one of the leading manufacturers to get in at the start & they effectively say NO. 

Given the time of year & bearing in mind the recent move by Magnatom, I'm all for holding off for the time being & reminding everyone once the New Year has got going. How does anyone else feel on this?


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## magnatom (31 Dec 2009)

Don't let my move hold up progress! 

However, I agree, we should try and start this with vigor once again in January. 

Of course my wife is due to give birth on the 15th.....


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## classic33 (31 Dec 2009)

Not saying that it should, just that your mind will have been elsewhere. 

Others may have been distracted by the time of year.

By the way:
*14th, 14:32. 8lb 7oz.*


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## magnatom (31 Dec 2009)

classic33 said:


> Not saying that it should, just that your mind will have been elsewhere.
> 
> Others may have been distracted by the time of year.
> 
> ...






The book has started!


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## Tollers (3 Jan 2010)

Just a suggestion....i noticed another thread which linked to a truckers forum....

http://www.cyclechat.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=51781

Perhaps you could get some advice there?


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## classic33 (4 Jan 2010)

Just a suggestion....i noticed another thread which linked to a truckers forum....

http://www.cyclechat.co.uk/forums/sh...ad.php?t=51781

Perhaps you could get some advice there? 
__________________
"No a**holes for administrators, no crazy weirdos for fellow forumers, people civil to each other.... " Yenrod, Wed, 11 July 2007 

"Driver" is the only occupation your allowed to enter. 
Awaiting a response with regards whether a cyclist can register on the site to answer some of the points raised.


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## Tollers (4 Jan 2010)

classic33 said:


> "Driver" is the only occupation your allowed to enter.
> Awaiting a response with regards whether a cyclist can register on the site to answer some of the points raised.



It looks like that is just to prevent people with free webmail accounts registering and spamming the board.

"If you are using a free e-mail address (Hotmail ,Gmail etc, ) please ensure you enter the word DRIVER in here. Not doing so may mean our spam filter deletes your registration"

I shouldn't worry about that and from what i read there half of them seem quite reasonable and keen for everyone to live. Im sure a polite introduction would see you welcomed.


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## Origamist (4 Jan 2010)

Emma García Fernández: ‘accidental death’

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...-says-boyfriend-of-cyclist-killed-by-lorry.do


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## CopperBrompton (4 Jan 2010)

All the more tragic for this death having been doubly preventable: if the lorry hadn't been in the cycle box, and if the cyclists hadn't gone up the inside of a lorry indicating left.


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## Bay Runner (5 Jan 2010)

Ben Lovejoy said:


> All the more tragic for this death having been doubly preventable: if the lorry hadn't been in the cycle box, and if the cyclists hadn't gone up the inside of a lorry indicating left.



Ben
+1


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## Origamist (5 Jan 2010)

User3143 said:


> How could the driver do what he did and not get done for driving without due care?



For the ASL encroachment, the driver could have been in this situation: 



> If your vehicle has proceeded over the first white line at the time that the signal goes red, you *MUST* stop at the second white line, even if your vehicle is in the marked area.



In which case, it is acceptable to stop in the reservoir. However, we do not know if this was the case - he might have crept forward into the ASL when the light was red.

As for not seeing the cyclist - there is the tried and tested blindspot argument. However, I am still surprised that the driver was released without charge as if he had been diligently checking his nearside mirrors he would, at some stage, have seen both cyclists come alongside his vehicle.


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## ttcycle (20 Jan 2010)

Ok folks - provisionally have a meeting with Charlie from LCC next week - any specifics that you want me to take to him?


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## Origamist (24 Jan 2010)

"Lorry kills woman cyclist on road too narrow for it to pass"

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...-cyclist-on-road-too-narrow-for-it-to-pass.do


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## classic33 (25 Jan 2010)

Response from one manufacturer

Thank you for your mail and for explaining in more detail how you would be looking to Iveco for help in this matter. Unfortunately, we are unable to provide you with a vehicle in this instance. 

Could we suggest that, as mentioned in our email below, you contact ROSPA or BRAKE and seek their assistance?



Thank you. 



Best Regards 



Iveco Customer Center

ContactUs Service


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## classic33 (19 Apr 2010)

*Magnatom*
Reason for not putting on here what I sent to you. I don't want the company involved to feel that they are under unfair pressure.
Also the fact that Iv'e asked if personal details can be passed on. 

Whatever the outcome, I'll let everyone that has been involved on here, know.
But at present we have a national company that may be willing to help in the making of this video. With that bit in mind, can I ask how those who have taken part how they feel about the companies drivers explaining their point of view on the video.

From the outset it has been the intention to try & educate all sides to try & reduce the numbers.


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## DavieB (28 Jun 2010)

How about trying Ryder truck rental. They are an organisation highly focused on health and safety. I worked for them as a mechanic 10 years ago and i believe if you got in touch with the right person at head office you could be onto a winner its the kind of thing they would put in their internal magazine. You wouldnt get a tipper though youd be looking at a 17 tonne box van or dropside at best, they dont do bin lorries or tippers iirc. They dont do a hell of a lot of advertising and this may be seen as a free way to get their trucks in a magazine. If there can be a positive pr spin attached.


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## classic33 (20 Dec 2013)

This is the thread that started it all. As well as the person.
How much has changed in that time?


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## CopperBrompton (20 Dec 2013)

Quite a lot. As a result of the coincidence of a lot of this year's deaths happening in a short time, the issue has received a mass of publicity, truck drivers and bus drivers have been spoken to, police out at loads of junctions giving advice and ticketing motorists stopping in the ASL and red-light-jumping cyclists.


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