# Carb deficit and cycling



## yello (28 May 2010)

Following on from another thread that touched on carbohydrate deficit and endurance sports, I let google be my friend and came up with some rather interesting reading...

...a study entitled Ketogenic diets and physical performance.

(A 'ketogenic' diet, btw, is basically no carbohydrate. Think perpetual bonk!)

Its interesting reading alone for the cultural and historical backdrop it paints (the Inuit naturally no-carb diet, the rise of the carb in our diets, etc) but the meat of it (ho ho) is in the science.

I'll cut to the chase; the study suggests that a no carb diet is possible for an endurance athlete. Basically, the body goes through an adaptation stage of 1 to 2 weeks whilst it adjusts (during which time a drop in performance will be seen) but after that, once the body has learnt to fuel itself from non-carb sources, performance returns. 

Personally, I wouldn't try it as I like my cake too much BUT I'm hoping you might find it an interesting read! In all seriousness, I would welcome comments.


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## iLB (28 May 2010)

this would be useful for short term weight loss (burning fat), but unsustainable in the long term i would have thought.


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## Crackle (28 May 2010)

Fossilised evidence shows that early hunter-gatherers managed.


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## yello (28 May 2010)

The thing is (or seems to be) it IS sustainable in the long term. The Inuits seemed to manage it!


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## ASC1951 (28 May 2010)

yello said:


> The Inuits seemed to manage it!


So what? They also had little choice. What's the point, when our success as a species comes from being omnivores?


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## GrasB (28 May 2010)

Crackle said:


> Fossilised evidence shows that early hunter-gatherers managed.



Me liky!


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## yello (28 May 2010)

ASC1951 said:


> So what? They also had little choice. What's the point, when our success as a species comes from being omnivores?



With all due respect, I think you've missed the point. It's not about choice, species success or herbivore/carnivore/omnivore distinctions. The point is that people can happily exist and function normally on a (virtually) no-carb diet.


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## Dan B (28 May 2010)

As a matter of interest, what's the inuit life expectancy?


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## yello (29 May 2010)

I don't know and the study does not say. Nothing to stop you following that up if though should you be interested in the answer.

Whatever the answer might be, you'd have to ensure the figure didn't include non-diet related deaths (which I assume is your point) and other differentiating factors. For instance, I know suicide is purported to be high in very northern regions. Now they could all be topping themselves because they're sick of fish and whale blubber but I don't think so! 

Note that the study does not look at the suitability of an _Inuit diet_ for physical performance, merely a _low carb diet_. The two are not the same. So let's not get too sidetracked by the thought of fish suppers... and lunches... and breakfasts.... for the rest of all time.


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## ASC1951 (29 May 2010)

yello said:


> With all due respect, I think you've missed the point.


With even greater respect, you asked for comments. That was mine. 

As onmivores, we can live on all sorts of diets. That doesn't mean a restricted diet is sensible or desirable. The study in your link is in large part a report of an experiment conducted by a couple of people 80 years ago based on what they though the traditional Inuit diet was 50 years before that. His modern lab test was a small scale short trial on fixed equipment.

Even then, his conclusion is simply -


> Both observational and prospectively designed studies support the conclusion that submaximal endurance performance can be sustained despite the virtual exclusion of carbohydrate from the human diet.


 - in English "You can sustain effort with a carbohydrate-free diet, but you don't do as well as if it did contain carbohydrate." I'm glad I wasn't funding his project.


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## yello (29 May 2010)

ASC1951 said:


> With even greater respect, you asked for comments. That was mine.



As was mine... this could run and run  But I am glad it's teased more out of you. Seriously. 



> That doesn't mean a restricted diet is sensible or desirable.



I'd agree. That's a personal choice in many respects. The study only suggests it is possible, and that is what interested me. 



> The study in your link is in large part a report of an experiment conducted by a couple of people 80 years ago based on what they though the traditional Inuit diet was 50 years before that. His modern lab test was a small scale short trial on fixed equipment.



I go further. I'd say the historical aspect laid out is anecdotal and can't really be used as the basis for a conclusion. The lab test is, despite it's short term nature, interesting; the observation of a drop in performance and a recovery. I'd agree, it'd be interesting to see how the cyclists performed over a longer time frame.



> Even then, his conclusion is simply - - in English "You can sustain effort with a carbohydrate-free diet, *but you don't do as well as if it did contain carbohydrate*."



I think the latter bold bit is you're own interpretation. In fairness, I don't think the study concludes that. The study does add caveats about it not simply being a carb restricted diet but careful attention to other factors is also required. Note that the report also concludes...



> Therapeutic use of ketogenic diets should not require constraint of most forms of physical labor or recreational activity, with the one caveat that anaerobic (ie, weight lifting or sprint) performance is limited by the low muscle glycogen levels induced by a ketogenic diet, and this would strongly discourage its use under most conditions of competitive athletics.



Note the context, "therapeutic use", AND the direct advice regarding such diets and anaerobic performance.

Let me lay out some back story here. I was taken by a claim I read that there was no dietary requirement for carbohydrate to sustain life. Given that we, as cyclists, are given info about carbo loading and are sold energy bars, drinks and gels etc etc etc, I was interested as to how cycling (or any level of activity generally) featured in a 'sustained life'. 

Jimbo, of this very forum, has addressed this point specifically. He has, in the past, posted quite detailed info on how he calculates his carb requirement for particular expenditures of effort. Whether he factors in a base level daily requirement, I can't remember.

But this study seems to indicate that, indeed and as I had read, that there is no base level requirement and one can (if so desired) perform "most forms of... recreational activity" on a low carb diet.

I have already stated that I personally would not do it, nor would I necessarily recommend anyone else to, but it is interesting none-the-less that seemingly it can be done, and safely. I don't know specifically what "therapeutic" reasons one might have (something perhaps to do with controlling blood sugars, diabetes like things, etc) but that's neither here nor there.


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## Fiona N (29 May 2010)

I'm not surprised that a carb-free (or at least very low/seasonal) diet will maintain life or even that it's possible to undertake endurance-type activities while existing on such, my question is - why would you? 

Other extreme diets (I mean this in the scientific sense not as a way of loosing weight) such as veganism or even raw vegansim (not entirely sure what the tachnical term for this is) at least have a rationale even if you don't agree with it. Whereas no-carbs diets seem to me to be hankering after some illusory 'golden age' when humans lived off meat and fish alone. You only have to read the studies of diets of nomadic, hunter-gatherer tribes in less cold climates to realise carbs and, particularly sugar (e.g. honey), are an integral and sought after part of the diet. The Inuit have had to adapt as they, for most of the year, don't have the choice but look at how enthusiastic they are about any sort of fruit in the summer. 

So why push your body to something it will only do at a push?


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## yello (29 May 2010)

Fiona N said:


> Whereas no-carbs diets seem to me to be hankering after some illusory 'golden age' when humans lived off meat and fish alone.



I wouldn't agree entirely with that. It's probably true to say that some advocates of the diet believe that (and the 'primitive diet' argument does have some persuasive arguments imho, so - yes - I personally would say such diets have an arguable "rationale") but I'm equally sure there are other reasons why someone might want a no-carb diet. What they might be, I don't know but the "why" of it doesn't actually bother me. Suffice to say, I wouldn't class it as deluded even though I wouldn't personally do it.

I'm going to read further on this, especially the "at a push" aspect you refer to. I really would like to know just how adaptable our systems are and what, if anything, is compromised. Intuition (or previous teachings, call it what you will) tells me carb is essential. The study would suggest otherwise. I like it when I get these knowledge clashes!


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## e-rider (29 May 2010)

I'm at the end of my first week of a low carb diet and my performance has dropped on the bike.


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## Soltydog (29 May 2010)

About 2 years ago I went on a very low carb diet, on the advice of my doctor.
Performance was affected  My 16 mile commute time went up by 10-15% I didn't feel as energetic, but had more get up & go  Lost about 2 stone in 3 months tho  
I avoided carbs for about 6 months before slowly re-introducing them into my diet, but I still dont go mad fuelling up on carbs, not even for long rides & manage ok


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## Fiona N (30 May 2010)

When I was racing and doing 12/24hour TTs in Australia in the '80s I experimented with the then fashionable carb-loading before long events. This entailed cutting carbs pretty much completely from the diet for a few weeks prior to the event while maintaining as high quality training as possible. Then the last few days prior to the event carbs would be reintroduced to supposedly 'overload' the glycogen stores. The lengths of the cycles seemed to depend on the coach/author consulted but I tried 2 weeks/3 days, 4 weeks/1 week and 6 weeks/1 week of no carb/carbs prior to the event.

After 3 attempts, it was clear that my body was not happy without a minimum level of carb intake and I reckoned that the loss of quality training (loss of intensity, basically) and the slower recovery (which I reckon is the critical thing in any sort of training) from that training was actually detrimental and I was much better sticking to a normal diet. Remember that in the '80s glucose polymer (malto-dextrin based) drinks hadn't been invented (or at least they were confined to the science labs) so refueling on a 24 hr TT, say, was pretty unscientific compared to nowadays, and anything which increased energy stores and reduced refuelling demand during the event was badly needed.

While anecdotes aren't the same as evidence, too many people I know who tried the same thing in various permutations found the same loss of form if carb loading was undertaken for more than a few days. 

Admittedly, part of the problem for me personally was that I was vegetarian at the time and also didn't eat cheese or most milk products on health grounds, so eating enough calories became a bit of a chore without really loading on the oils, nuts and eggs. Under normal circumstances I ate a lot of really nutritious home-made bread based on triticale (higher protein type of wheat) with lots of seeds. Obviously this was off the menu during the no-carbs periods


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## Crankarm (30 May 2010)

Fiona N said:


> When I was racing and doing 12/24hour TTs in Australia in the '80s I experimented with the then fashionable carb-loading before long events. This entailed cutting carbs pretty much completely from the diet for a few weeks prior to the event while maintaining as high quality training as possible. Then the last few days prior to the event carbs would be reintroduced to supposedly 'overload' the glycogen stores. The lengths of the cycles seemed to depend on the coach/author consulted but I tried 2 weeks/3 days, 4 weeks/1 week and 6 weeks/1 week of no carb/carbs prior to the event.
> 
> After 3 attempts, it was clear that my body was not happy without a minimum level of carb intake and I reckoned that the loss of quality training (loss of intensity, basically) and the slower recovery (which I reckon is the critical thing in any sort of training) from that training was actually detrimental and I was much better sticking to a normal diet. Remember that in the '80s glucose polymer (malto-dextrin based) drinks hadn't been invented (or at least they were confined to the science labs) so refueling on a 24 hr TT, say, was pretty unscientific compared to nowadays, and anything which increased energy stores and reduced refuelling demand during the event was badly needed.
> 
> ...



There's a lot of sense in your posts clearly borne from experience.

Quite what the OP is trying to achieve or find out defeats me as he says he would not undertake a low carb diet himself and didn't really grasp your full response with regard to the Inuit diet principally governed by their food supply and limited access to certain food groups which they manage to obtain in some form, eg honey for carbs.

For me a healthy balanced diet in moderation with regular exercise is the key. In undertaking extreme physical exertion the diet can be tweaked to take account of this to avoid running out of fuel or risking injury.


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## Crankarm (30 May 2010)

yello said:


> I wouldn't agree entirely with that. It's probably true to say that some advocates of the diet believe that (and the 'primitive diet' argument does have some persuasive arguments imho, so - yes - I personally would say such diets have an arguable "rationale") but I'm equally sure there are other reasons why someone might want a no-carb diet. What they might be, I don't know but the "why" of it doesn't actually bother me. Suffice to say, I wouldn't class it as deluded even though I wouldn't personally do it.
> 
> I'm going to read further on this, especially the "at a push" aspect you refer to. I really would like to know just how adaptable our systems are and what, if anything, is compromised. Intuition (or previous teachings, call it what you will) tells me carb is essential. The study would suggest otherwise. I like it when I get these knowledge clashes!



Are the Inuits noted for their cycling achievements ?


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## viniga (31 May 2010)

As comments are being invited and no particular points are being made...

I'm reading Fallen Angel, the biog of Fausto Coppi. The author mentions in passing that Coppi was a bit of an experimenter and was the/one of the first to develop the use of high carb diets in cycle racing. Up until then the 'standard' pre-race nutritional preparation was a steak.


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## darkstar (31 May 2010)

I literally could not give up Carbs. They are the foundation of my diet. Pasta fuels me for just about any exercise. With lean meats, fruit and veg. I can't see giving up on carbs improving your endurance capacity, the energy they provide is fundamental.


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## yello (31 May 2010)

viniga said:


> As comments are being invited and no particular points are being made...



Absolutely spot on and exactly what I like, a meandering discussion!

To any one that is confused; I have no personal agenda, no desire to achieve anything here. I'm not trying to find out anything in particular from anyone on the forum. If I was seriously interested in the diet, I would have posted on a different forum, one more suited to the nature of the interest!

I was merely presenting something that I found interesting for comment. I'm not advocating the Inuit diet, primitive diets or even no/low carb diets. The study I linked to mentions the Inuits merely as a backdrop to the study - me mentioning that seems to have caused the confusion. I don't give a toss about the sodding Inuits! 

Perhaps my attempted clarification a few posts back wasn't clear.


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## yello (31 May 2010)

Fiona N said:


> While anecdotes aren't the same as evidence, too many people I know who tried the same thing in various permutations found the same loss of form if carb loading was undertaken for more than a few days.



In the context of a discussion on a forum, I think anecdotes are fine. 

Perhaps in the study I linked to, the athletes were stable on their low carb diets. That is, they didn't do the bust/boom cycle of the carb loading you refer to. The study does say the athletes performance dipped initially but, after a couple of weeks on the diet, performance recovered; as if the body had adjusted to deriving energy from fat & protein. I don't know, I'm only guessing. As I said before, my intuition is that you need carb to fuel effort. That's why this study interested me.


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## shippers (31 May 2010)

I'm always amazed how well people can get by on diets that are utterly, utterly shocking!

Obvioulsy if you're training hard you need to keep an eye on what you're eating but if you look at how much crap some people stuff into themselves, and the amount of alcohol they pour in, and most people's bodies plug away for 60 years!
Obviously this is a tangent and "plugging away" is not what most people on this forum want to do...

Sorry, I'll go now.


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## Crankarm (31 May 2010)

shippers said:


> I'm always amazed how well people can get by on diets that are utterly, utterly shocking!
> 
> Obvioulsy if you're training hard you need to keep an eye on what you're eating but if you look at how much crap some people stuff into themselves, and the amount of alcohol they pour in, and most people's bodies plug away for 60 years!
> Obviously this is a tangent and "plugging away" is not what most people on this forum want to do...
> ...



Shocking. Some people are only switched on when they are plugged in .

IGMC.


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## yello (1 Jun 2010)

shippers said:


> most people's bodies plug away for 60 years!



There's often a great deal of medical propping up along the way, especially in the later years. Modern medicine can counter some of the effects of poor diet (and lifestyle) but death will always win out in the end!


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## shippers (1 Jun 2010)

yello said:


> ...but death will always win out in the end!



Well, yes... no matter how healthy the diet!


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## Vega (3 Jun 2010)

I think we have all been conditioned to think that in order to perform well in an endurance sport, we must carb up before hand. I grew up being taught to eat lots of pasta the night before a game so I'd have plenty of energy. I do believe however that one can have plenty of energy to perform without carb-loading. I wouldn't do a no-carb diet but a low-carb diet seems fine. I used to think that I needed soft drinks to get through the afternoon but now I drink water throughout the day and have plenty of energy. And I don't crash like I used to with soft drinks.


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## Hont (4 Jun 2010)

I'm sure I've read some posts on this forum from people who have tried this - or maybe the Atkins diet - and reported that for 1-2 weeks they felt dreadful, but once their body adjusted it was not too bad. And they lost loads of weight. Need them to post really rather than a third party with poor recollection. Sorry B)


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## steviesch (4 Jun 2010)

lets be careful out there - my son and heir carb depleted for a road race and then carbo loaded but probably started too late - morning of day before race in the afternoon. He bonked massively after an hour and had puking for a day or so plus a dose of squits for some days after....


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## jimboalee (7 Jun 2010)

"The adrenaline was flowing. One can go for quite a while on that. That and water". 

This is a quote by the CO of 1st Paras, referring to the taking of Arnhem bridge in September 1944.


You are worried about a few hours cycling?


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## jimboalee (7 Jun 2010)

yello said:


> As was mine... this could run and run  But I am glad it's teased more out of you. Seriously.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes I do.

Basal metabolic rate is calculated from the individual's Body Surface Area and will change with increases and decreases in ambient fluid ( gas or liquid ) temperature around the body.
The figures you read on web-sites assume the fluid surrounding the body is at Neutral Skin Temperature, or 33 deg C.
When a person is fully clothed, that is close to the truth.

As for carbohydrate requirement, it is true the human being can survive without it. The differences between Cellulose C6H12O6 and Animal C6H12O6 are subtle, but the human system can successfully assimilate both into usable fuel.

At high rates of energy expenditure, piling sugar into the stomach by-passes the process of changing fat into fuel. As for adrenaline, it is the body's mechanism for keeping the muscles working when the fuel supply is not rapid enough to cope with demand.
On a treadmill or gym bike, a novice might get the 'rush' after 20 - 30 minutes. A better trained person might go for over an hour before the 'adrenaline rush' starts.

A well trained person will be able to survive several days with only water. Many stories from desert and shipwreck survivors detail how they only had a few bottles of water and no food.

To ease the 'bonk' in an event, it is a good idea to force into it within a training session. ie, wake up the body's systems to expect another episode.


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## rsvdaz (7 Jun 2010)

I always seem to be on and off diets...and yes I have lost weight on a protein rich (atkins) type diet...but now i'm into cycling I am concerned with the lack of energy reserves on this type of regime..I am aware Slimming world have two types of regimes..a red - protein rich diet and a original green diet which has more emphasis on carbs..i have noticed losses on this type of diet before...i am planning to adopt this type of eating and coupled with the cycling hoping to see some improvement


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## yello (7 Jun 2010)

I'm sitting here in the St Pancras Eurostar terminal, killing time before catching the train back to Paris. So I bought a C+ for the first time in maybe 2 years and, low and behold, in their 'Know How' section, they state "Piling on the carbohydrates is the key to your recipe for cycling success".

I'm wondering, generally speaking, at what point do people query the perceived wisdom, and why? (Btw, to make it clear , I'm NOT saying C+'s advice is wrong nor that 'piling on the carbs' isn't right, just musing generally!)


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## jimboalee (7 Jun 2010)

yello said:


> I'm sitting here in the St Pancras Eurostar terminal, killing time before catching the train back to Paris. So I bought a C+ for the first time in maybe 2 years and, low and behold, in their 'Know How' section, they state "Piling on the carbohydrates is the key to your recipe for cycling success".
> 
> I'm wondering, generally speaking, at what point do people query the perceived wisdom, and why? (Btw, to make it clear , I'm NOT saying C+'s advice is wrong nor that 'piling on the carbs' isn't right, just musing generally!)



Its not disinformation, its misinformation.

They don't want you to drop down dead and they don't want you to finish Sportives ahead of their staff riders.


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## Fiona N (7 Jun 2010)

yello said:


> ...
> I'm wondering, generally speaking, at what point do people query the perceived wisdom, and why? (Btw, to make it clear , I'm NOT saying C+'s advice is wrong nor that 'piling on the carbs' isn't right, just musing generally!)



I have this thought every time I read about isotonic/salt replacement drinks (not the same, I realise, but part of the sports drink fraternity). I have misgivings about telling all and sundry to add salt to what they drink when they're only out for a couple of hours or so - partly this is because I know I can cycle (literally) all day without adding any salt to my water or energy drinks. 

The 'Science in Sport' blogsite had a really good look at this issue as part of a series on cramps. The key point - sweat is less salty that body fluid thus sweating increases salt concentration in the body. For a short period -2 hours, say - there is no reason to replace salt even for very high rate/salt sweaters, keeping hydrated is more important - then eat some soup for recovery. Only in the longer term, does it become an issue as the amount of water needed to replace lost fluid becomes large. But here again some people go overboard - loss of performance usually is measured in top end athletes where 5% is a big loss whereas for weekend warriors, would they notice the difference?

There's yet another piece on hydration in CW this week, and once again salt replacement using commercial drinks is being pushed.


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## Hont (7 Jun 2010)

jimboalee said:


> "The adrenaline was flowing. One can go for quite a while on that. That and water".
> 
> This is a quote by the CO of 1st Paras, referring to the taking of Arnhem bridge in September 1944.



But maybe the Germans were using isotonic drinks, which is why we lost it again?


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## Crankarm (8 Jun 2010)

Fiona N said:


> I have this thought every time I read about isotonic/salt replacement drinks (not the same, I realise, but part of the sports drink fraternity). I have misgivings about telling all and sundry to add salt to what they drink when they're only out for a couple of hours or so - partly this is because I know I can cycle (literally) all day without adding any salt to my water or energy drinks.
> 
> The 'Science in Sport' blogsite had a really good look at this issue as part of a series on cramps. The key point - sweat is less salty that body fluid thus sweating increases salt concentration in the body. For a short period -2 hours, say - there is no reason to replace salt even for very high rate/salt sweaters, keeping hydrated is more important - then eat some soup for recovery. Only in the longer term, does it become an issue as the amount of water needed to replace lost fluid becomes large. But here again some people go overboard - loss of performance usually is measured in top end athletes where 5% is a big loss whereas for weekend warriors, would they notice the difference?
> 
> There's yet another piece on hydration in CW this week, and once again salt replacement using commercial drinks is being pushed.



Again there is much sense in your posts.


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## jimboalee (8 Jun 2010)

Fiona N said:


> I have this thought every time I read about isotonic/salt replacement drinks (not the same, I realise, but part of the sports drink fraternity). I have misgivings about telling all and sundry to add salt to what they drink when they're only out for a couple of hours or so - partly this is because I know I can cycle (literally) all day without adding any salt to my water or energy drinks.
> 
> The 'Science in Sport' blogsite had a really good look at this issue as part of a series on cramps. The key point - sweat is less salty that body fluid thus sweating increases salt concentration in the body. For a short period -2 hours, say - there is no reason to replace salt even for very high rate/salt sweaters, keeping hydrated is more important - then eat some soup for recovery. Only in the longer term, does it become an issue as the amount of water needed to replace lost fluid becomes large. But here again some people go overboard - loss of performance usually is measured in top end athletes where 5% is a big loss whereas for weekend warriors, would they notice the difference?
> 
> There's yet another piece on hydration in CW this week, and once again salt replacement using commercial drinks is being pushed.



Yup, good post.

Salt supplementation is a personal thing. People are individuals and it's a game of 'trial and error' until salt replacement quanities are established to avoid cramps etc.

You would be surprised how much I pour on my tongue after a 200km Audax.


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## yello (8 Jun 2010)

In fairness to C+ (though they are quoting Ron Maughan, a Prof of sports science) they do state, in an article on electrolytes,

"The variation in sweat rate and sweat sodium content between individuals is so large that average values are largely meaningless"

Strange then that they then go and suggest one looks for a sports drink containing between 400 and 1100mg of sodium per litre. 

As an example, at the top end of that scale, drinking a modest 1/2 litre per hour, I'd consume around 3000mg of sodium for a 100km ride. I don't class myself as an endurance athlete, that's a steady but gentle pace for me without knocking myself out. I'm not pouring sweat. 

They state in the same article that 2300mg of sodium is the "upper level" of the daily intake, and that 1500mg a day is the amount that the Institute of Medicine recommends to replace lost sodium. So whilst acknowledging the vast differences in individuals sweat rates and sodium content, they actually advise a consumption that, for me, could exceed the recommended daily intake. 

I accept that those figures could well hold true for performance athletes but for pootlers like me.... I think C+ really ought make that distinction more obvious. For the record, I have only water in my bidons!


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## jimboalee (8 Jun 2010)

It's not as simple as 1cm^3 H2O per 4 kCals usage. There is a frig-factor which involves the temperature of the surrounding fluid ( a thin layer of sweat beneath the clothing ) compared with the body's Neutral Skin Temperature.

In the wintertime, windchill is greater and the body sends blood to the skin to keep it warm instead of sweating to keep it cool. Not a lot of H2O is required.
In the summertime however, the thin layer of sweat stays closer to NST and vapourises more readily. Latent heat of evaporation is insufficient to keep the skin cool, so the body produces more sweat.

MY CALCS FOR ME. Note, for ME, no-one else.

100 km Audax in 5 hours.

10 deg C ambient, regular jersey and shorts – 2.2 litres requirement.

30 deg C ambient, same clothing – 10.3 litres requirement.

I haven't measured the salinity of my sweat. I work on 1000mg per litre.

This has turned into Na deficiency.


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