# Those of you that don't have cars....



## Kumquat (8 Apr 2016)

Do you manage quite easily to live a car-free life?

I'm curious because I am a young person who has never owned my own car, because so far I've never needed to (student so walked/cycled and took the bus within my city, very rarely need to venture outside of the city). 

Next year I will need to move around more. My work will reimburse me either petrol or train/bus tickets (it's too far for me to cycle, but maybe not for some of you hardcore nutters  ) My parents seem to think that in order to be a functioning adult in society I must buy a car, but I'm not sure I can be bothered with the costs and upkeep of owning a car, although I could just about afford an old banger and it would make my commute a lot easier.

I'm tempted to save money (and the environment) and not get a car just yet, but am I making my life unnecessarily difficult?


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## raleighnut (8 Apr 2016)

No, I've never owned a car. Even after my accident I bought a trike to get about on.


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## classic33 (9 Apr 2016)

Never had one, legally, and unable to drive anyway.

I've cycled in most weathers, from thunderstorms on high open ground, to high winds. 
Temperature wise, cycling in the summer of '95 down to minus 15°C(still air temp).

Some of the looks I've had when I said I cycled/walked in were worth doing it just for that look. Collected a washing machine, having dropped the old one off first. Similar looks of disbelief when shown the vehicle it was going on.

All we need is a few more to do the same and it won't seem as "odd".


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## growingvegetables (9 Apr 2016)

Kumquat said:


> Do you manage quite easily to live a car-free life?


Yes. On the rare occasions that I actually need a car/van, I hire one. Maybe twice a year?

Of my four children, one has a car with work - and drives to the gym regularly. 
The other three don't have a car .... and don't need to go to the gym.


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## classic33 (9 Apr 2016)

I'm going to ask another question here, for the regular walkers.
How many give a distance, point A to point B, in the time it'd take you to walk it?


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## screenman (9 Apr 2016)

It is a lifestyle choice, I would struggle to enjoy my one without a car.


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## summerdays (9 Apr 2016)

What age are you and what sort of distance? My eldest has just passed the driving test, and we looked into insuring granny's car, and depending on whether it was based at home or at university made a different of £1500 to the quote. So I would factor in some potentially large insurance costs depending on where you live. They don't need it at Uni, so there is no point, it was mainly to make sure they had some more driving experience.

As for the distance, could you do a day a week or use a folding bike on public transport to take you part of the way?


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## screenman (9 Apr 2016)

One of the places I need to go to today is 3hrs 36minutes by bus or 36 minutes by car each way. That is just one of three destinations I want to visit today, but as I said earlier a lifestyle choice, some people live in smaller spaces.


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## summerdays (9 Apr 2016)

screenman said:


> One of the places I need to go to today is 3hrs 36minutes by bus or 36 minutes by car each way. That is just one of three destinations I want to visit today, but as I said earlier a lifestyle choice, some people live in smaller spaces.


But if it's 36 mins by car then for me (here), that would be about 50 mins or an hour by bike so doable (unless your 36 mins was motorway)


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## Fab Foodie (9 Apr 2016)

I had this dilemma as a young Foodie, my solution was a Honda CB100 motorcycle, the next best thing to a bicycle. If I was in your position I'd go for a modern classic 'Vespa' built by LML. Cool.


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## screenman (9 Apr 2016)

summerdays said:


> But if it's 36 mins by car then for me (here), that would be about 50 mins or an hour by bike so doable (unless your 36 mins was motorway)



26 miles each way. We do not have much in the way of motorways in Lincolnshire. As I said some live their life in smaller spaces.


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## Effyb4 (9 Apr 2016)

We gave up our car 9 months ago and have been happily walking, cycling and using public transport. We really haven't missed the car, but we do live a 5 minute walk from a bus stop and a 15 minute walk from a station. I think our summer holiday will be the real test.


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## summerdays (9 Apr 2016)

screenman said:


> 26 miles each way. We do not have much in the way of motorways in Lincolnshire. As I said some live their life in smaller spaces.


Excluding motorways, most roads I travel on are 40mph or occasionally 50mph limits, and towards the centre of Bristol 20 mph.


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## summerdays (9 Apr 2016)

Effyb4 said:


> We gave up our car 9 months ago and have been happily walking, cycling and using public transport. We really haven't missed the car, but we do live a 5 minute walk from a bus stop and a 15 minute walk from a station. I think our summer holiday will be the real test.


My friend just hires a car for her holidays if she can't do it by train, but it's still cheaper than owning a car.


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## Effyb4 (9 Apr 2016)

summerdays said:


> My friend just hires a car for her holidays if she can't do it by train, but it's still cheaper than owning a car.


We plan to get there by train and take our bikes, but we are going to Yorkshire and it's a lot more hilly than Essex and public transport isn't quite as convenient. We will hire a car if we need to.


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## marcusjb (9 Apr 2016)

No car, but live in London, so really no need for one (doesn't stop the roads being clogged up with the damned things). Ride bikes everywhere. Very occasionally get the train/tube if the weather is poor. 

Hire cars a few times a year for trips away (that can't be done on train etc). 

I have spent my adult life, particularly since my late 20s, in dense urban environments, so my lifestyle has leant itself to non car ownership. 

Going to places further afield on a train can take longer than driving for sure, but much of the time, I would rather be sat in a seat, reading a book and looking at the passing countryside than the monotonous endurance test of driving along a motorway.


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## steveindenmark (9 Apr 2016)

The choice of not having a car depends on a lot of things. Distance to shops, work, do you have children. Where is your social life based. Do you have a partner?

I work 15 miles away and start at 6am. I also live 8 miles from the nearest shop and so its not practical for me not to have a car. However, in the summer my main form of transport is my Honda Innova125 cc bike and it is excellent.


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## cosmicbike (9 Apr 2016)

I don't have a car. I have 5 bikes and a campervan Since the van is a lifestyle choice, and one which actually enables more cycling (certainly as a family anyway) I think I'd rather not be without it. I cycle to work every day, so it gets used rarely.
SWMBO has a runaround, and until the kids go to secondary school (within realistic walking distance) it gets used daily.
Could we manage without a car? Yes of course, it would just need a little thinking about and getting used to. If you've never had one then I'm sure you'll find ways round it.


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## shouldbeinbed (9 Apr 2016)

Kumquat said:


> Do you manage quite easily to live a car-free life?
> 
> I'm curious because I am a young person who has never owned my own car, because so far I've never needed to (student so walked/cycled and took the bus within my city, very rarely need to venture outside of the city).
> 
> ...


How much work equipment would you be expected to carry on these more frequent work journeys next year? Assuming not huge if Public Transport is a viable alternative.

Have you considered a folding bike and multi modal travel? The obvious option for use on PT and still give a perfectly decent servicable ride quality and good luggage carrying options is the Brompton but there are other less expensive folders that fold well enough to get away with bus (occasional knobby driver excepted) and on train or tram systems. Usually covered keeps the more jobsworthy types happy.

Using Brompton as an example of folding bikes ~£1000 would get you a brand new bike with a literal lifetime of use in it, cheap as chips to maintain and keep in perfect condition, great fun to ride and cut through the stationary traffic queues, very adaptable set ups, no parking, fuel, VED, MOTs to pay, literally door to door, wear and tear depreciation is negligible vs motors, keeps you fit and healthy without gyms or eating up free time with exercise/or if you are a gym bunny - gets you warmed up and ready while on your ride there. With the right clothing & outers you'll be clean dry and presentable at your destination.

You could enquire if your company operates or would consider a bike to work scheme that would allow you to get the bike through a pre tax salary sacrifice scheme and save you a chunk of money on the cost you pay.

I have a car, (5 people, 3 dogs and 3 chickens family) but currently medically not driving nor missing doing so, it is a convenience that is useful should my dogs fall ill and need urgent vetinary visits and my work requires me as an emergency response over a 400 square mile areas 365 days with a big chunk of kit but other than that, it is a choice not a need.


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## Firestorm (9 Apr 2016)

If you would not use a car a great deal , but have isolated times of need , then hiring a car for those times as opposed to buying one may prove to be an option, although cost wise it may not be a massive saving .
without driving it a mile , a car could cost you say £80 a month tax ins etc ,Thats two days car hire.
Also you may find that your firms mileage allowance works out more than just the cost of the petrol, so it may contribute to the overall running cost, wheras if they pay for the train / bus ticket , thats all you will see.
As you dont drive , though , there is the rather expensive matter of driving lessons and then buying the car initially
It will be a good 750 to pass your test, thats 15 lessons and passing first time, then a couple of grand for something that will work, so getting started, scuse the pun, is the tricky bit


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## Kumquat (9 Apr 2016)

summerdays said:


> What age are you and what sort of distance? My eldest has just passed the driving test, and we looked into insuring granny's car, and depending on whether it was based at home or at university made a different of £1500 to the quote. So I would factor in some potentially large insurance costs depending on where you live. They don't need it at Uni, so there is no point, it was mainly to make sure they had some more driving experience.
> 
> As for the distance, could you do a day a week or use a folding bike on public transport to take you part of the way?



I'm 20, so yes insurance costs are high but I've had my license since 17 and built up a no-claims bonus on my parents car so it's not quite as insanely high as when I first passed my test.

I will be based at various different sites for 8 weeks at a time, then switch. The closest is in the same city (so cycle), the furthest is 1 hour drive. Probably the easiest thing for the further sites would be to cycle to station, take bike on train then cycle to the site


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## Kumquat (9 Apr 2016)

Fab Foodie said:


> I had this dilemma as a young Foodie, my solution was a Honda CB100 motorcycle, the next best thing to a bicycle. If I was in your position I'd go for a modern classic 'Vespa' built by LML. Cool.



Haha nice idea but you have no idea how incredibly anxious my mother is, she would NEVER talk to me again if I got on something 2 wheeled and motorized. This is despite her having a moped at 14, and my dad having a Harley until I was about 10 

Also I'm a hockey goalkeeper as well so I have a HUGE bag I need to take to practice (by bus at the moment, considering a bike trailer) so if I some form of motorized transport it might as well fit my stuff inside (side car?  )


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## Kumquat (9 Apr 2016)

shouldbeinbed said:


> How much work equipment would you be expected to carry on these more frequent work journeys next year? Assuming not huge if Public Transport is a viable alternative.
> 
> Have you considered a folding bike and multi modal travel? The obvious option for use on PT and still give a perfectly decent servicable ride quality and good luggage carrying options is the Brompton but there are other less expensive folders that fold well enough to get away with bus (occasional knobby driver excepted) and on train or tram systems. Usually covered keeps the more jobsworthy types happy.
> 
> ...




Is it viable to do multi-modal transport with the bike I already have, at least to start with? 
Or is there rarely any space on trains to put a full-sized bike?


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## raleighnut (9 Apr 2016)

Kumquat said:


> Is it viable to do multi-modal transport with the bike I already have, at least to start with?
> Or is there rarely any space on trains to put a full-sized bike?


They can get a bit 'arsey' at peak times (i.e. when the train is packed) so it depends on when you need to commute and which company provides the train (some are more accommodating than others)


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## classic33 (9 Apr 2016)

steveindenmark said:


> The choice of not having a car depends on a lot of things. Distance to shops, work, do you have children. Where is your social life based. Do you have a partner?
> *
> I work 15 miles away and start at 6am.* I also live 8 miles from the nearest shop and so its not practical for me not to have a car. However, in the summer my main form of transport is my Honda Innova125 cc bike and it is excellent.


Used to start at 5am.


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## mjr (9 Apr 2016)

screenman said:


> 26 miles each way. We do not have much in the way of motorways in Lincolnshire. As I said some live their life in smaller spaces.


I think a lot depends on the attitude of your local government. Norfolk councillors bleat about cars being "essential" and then provide services to make that true, such as certain things only being disposable at council tips, the tip being a mile outside town on an HGV- infested industrial estate, a mile from the nearest cycle track and half a mile from an infrequently- served bus stop (and the bus driver would probably do their nut if the waste was messy) and the council charge about £35 to collect stuff.

So we have a car that mainly gets used for hauling stuff too big for the bike trailer, plus the occasional long distance trip not well served by mass transport.


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## summerdays (9 Apr 2016)

Kumquat said:


> Is it viable to do multi-modal transport with the bike I already have, at least to start with?
> Or is there rarely any space on trains to put a full-sized bike?


Which train line are you talking about then some with knowledge of that specific line could give more accurate information?


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## classic33 (9 Apr 2016)

mjray said:


> I think a lot depends on the attitude of your local government. Norfolk councillors bleat about cars being "essential" and then provide services to make that true, such as certain things only being disposable at council tips, the tip being a mile outside town on an HGV- infested industrial estate, a mile from the nearest cycle track and half a mile from an infrequently- served bus stop (and the bus driver would probably do their nut if the waste was messy) and the council charge about £35 to collect stuff.
> 
> So we have a car that mainly gets used for hauling stuff too big for the bike trailer, plus the occasional long distance trip not well served by mass transport.


If I can take a three piece suite, in one trip, what's stopping you from taking the odd bag or two of garden waste?
T'aint flat round here.


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## shouldbeinbed (9 Apr 2016)

Kumquat said:


> Is it viable to do multi-modal transport with the bike I already have, at least to start with?
> Or is there rarely any space on trains to put a full-sized bike?


My experience is usually going against rush hour flow and 3-4 full size bikes are accommodated from Manchester's busiest central stations outwards, I do see bikes coming in too with the rest of the pedestrian traffic but don't know if others have had to be left back at their start points. All the trains have at least one bike friendly carriage and look like they'd take more than the 3-4 I've seen. Best thing to do is ask the local train operators.

The benefit of a folder is that it will go into a luggage rack or beside your seat if it's quieter on the train.


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## mjr (9 Apr 2016)

classic33 said:


> If I can take a three piece suite, in one trip, what's stopping you from taking the odd bag or two of garden waste?
> T'aint flat round here.


I've several trees and bushes that grow quite fast. A garden shredder and a wood stove have helped reduce amount and size, but if I cycled everything to the tip, I'd rarely cycle anywhere else and it's not a nice ride among the HGVs, so that's a bit dull. There should be more garden waste collections but "everyone" has a car so the politicians see little need to expand them.

Also, that's only one example of the car-assumed services here


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## classic33 (9 Apr 2016)

mjray said:


> I've several trees and bushes that grow quite fast. A garden shredder and a wood stove have helped reduce amount and size, but if I cycled everything to the tip, I'd rarely cycle anywhere else and it's not a nice ride among the HGVs, so that's a bit dull. There should be more garden waste collections *but "everyone" has a car so the politicians see little need to expand them.*
> 
> Also, that's only one example of the car-assumed services here


May be time to challenge that assumption then. We are, as cyclist road traffic.
Same sort of trip, as regards HGV's though.

Local council is totally anti-cycling.


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## Kumquat (9 Apr 2016)

summerdays said:


> Which train line are you talking about then some with knowledge of that specific line could give more accurate information?



Southwest trains, cross-country would be the most likely, with potentially also great western railway or southern.


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## Kumquat (9 Apr 2016)

The talk of the brompton folder has made me consider a folding push scooter to and from the station 
CycleChat what have you got me into!?

(I'm sure my old scooter is still in my parent's garage...hmmm...)


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## Kumquat (9 Apr 2016)

http://www.decathlon.co.uk/town-7-xl-adult-scooter-suspended-chrome-id_8298992.html

Oh dear.
I really want one.... I can't become one of "those" people though, can I?


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## ManiaMuse (9 Apr 2016)

Kumquat said:


> http://www.decathlon.co.uk/town-7-xl-adult-scooter-suspended-chrome-id_8298992.html
> 
> Oh dear.
> I really want one.... I can't become one of "those" people though, can I?


My boss is one of "those" people.

Her daughter rides it to pre-school then my boss rides it from the school to the tram stop and takes the tram the rest of the way.

She isn't particularly fit and I don't think she does any other exercise but she says its quicker and saves her time.


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## dave r (9 Apr 2016)

We were car free for over 30 years, we brought up our Lads without a car. We walked, used buses and used trains. For day trips and holidays we hired cars. Now the lads have left home and we are retired but I have an elderly car, a Hyundai Getz, I could get rid of it, and will have to eventually, but it makes life easier.


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## Hip Priest (9 Apr 2016)

I find it handy having a car, but the missus tends to use it more than me. I commute occasionally by car but the nose-to-tail traffic tends to send me back to the bike.


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## Flying Dodo (9 Apr 2016)

I've been car free for nearly 5 years. With the result I have more money to spend on more important things. 

With a bit of forward planning, it's perfectly easy to not need a car. My commute is about 6 miles which generally takes me less time than it would if I was driving. It's about 3 miles to a train station for trains into London if needed. I bulk buy heavy/bulky items when they're on special offer such as cat food, toilet rolls, washing powder etc, which then gets delivered by the supermarkets. Our village has a co-op for day to day essentials, and then I do a big shop every 2 weeks or so to one of the supermarkets 2-3 miles away on the cargo bike which can take 6 large panniers. I can hitch a trailer onto the cargo bike if I want to carry anything larger, and it's electric.

Why would I need a car?


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## Sheffield_Tiger (10 Apr 2016)

I know plenty of "functioning adults" without a car
The idea of being a "failure" if you don't is nonsense
After an MOT was due and cash was tight, I left my car at the back car park at work "for a bit" and SORN'd it. It's been there 3 years. I really should get around to selling it.

A friend lost her driving licence due to medical issues. She is a carpenter and carries bulky tools. I'm putting a triple chainset and a Q/R rear wheel on her 7-speed commuter so that it can hitch up a loaded BobYak style trailer up hills


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## united4ever (10 Apr 2016)

Bought my first car at 39. With small kids my wife especially was keen for taking them to some places where they have activities and clubs and socialising. We could manage without it and the expense is annoying. Would like to car share/pool ideally but communities don't seem to have the mindset for this in the UK. If our street had one or two cars which were pool cars that you could book for an hour or two here and there it would be great....but everyone seems to want their own car sat on their own drive. When self driving cars become reality things may change but probably talking 20 years plus before that is mainstream.


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## subaqua (11 Apr 2016)

summerdays said:


> Which train line are you talking about then some with knowledge of that specific line could give more accurate information?



its simple. if you are heading into London on ANY commuter service on a service scheduled to arrive between 07.30 and 09.45 then it is folding bike time. heading OUT of london no problem . 

the reverse applies between 16.30 and 19.00 . 

Intercity trains on all of the main providers require you to book space on guards van. in the summer this can be hit and miss. 


heading into Birmingham /manchetser /Leeds/Liverpool the same timeings apply on the commuter services.


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## hopless500 (11 Apr 2016)

I'd not want to be without a car where I live. My direct commute is 15 miles each way. We always take the back roads as the direct route through is dangerous to cycle when people are driving to work, which makes it 19 miles each way. The nearest main(ish) roads are 3 miles away in opposite directions (considerably further in the others), the nearest local shop which is useless is over 3 miles away. The nearest bus stop is over 3 miles away, and the service is sparse. The nearest train station is 9 miles away.


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## ColinJ (11 Apr 2016)

I am 60 and have never even had a single driving lesson, let alone driven a car. It is definitely possible to have a car-free life.

The thing is, you have to accept that there are things that you can't do without a motor vehicle. For example, last week I helped my sister take several car loads of heavy rubbish to the local tip. (Old bathroom and kitchen tiles, old carpets and so on.) The council would probably have picked up a lot of that stuff if paid and booked to do it, but without a vehicle it would be impossible to do it on the spur of the moment. (Before someone suggests it - the council does not allow pedal-powered vehicles into the waste disposal centre!)

I once went out shopping on Christmas Eve. I ended up queueing an hour for a bus in snow and sleet. I was carrying bulky gifts including a large whiteboard and a TV set (the old-fashioned big, heavy kind). It was impossible to get a taxi because they were all too busy. No fun!

When I am organising my forum rides, I start them locally, or from places not too far away that I can cycle to/from. If further afield, I have to rely on lifts from kind drivers, or catch trains with my bike.

If you learn to drive then you have the option to own a car, or just to hire a vehicle from time to time when you need one. If I were younger, that is probably what I would do - pass my test, but not bother buying a car. I would probably only drive about once a month or so, a _maximum_ of about 100 miles each way so ownership would not make a lot of sense. I would still walk to my local shops and walk/cycle/catch a train to visit friends down the valley. I have a railcard and can get a return ticket for only £1.60. There are 3 trains an hour during the day and at least 1 an hour in the evening.

I certainly would not want to live way out in the sticks where @hopless500 does without a car. My late mum grew up in a small Scottish village at a time when few people had cars and said that they felt very isolated. They had a few trains and buses a day but otherwise were cut off.


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## biking_fox (11 Apr 2016)

Very much as above. Me and the OtherHalf have lived happily car free all our lives. But there are things to consider:

Where you live - how close are the shops /work/ public transport? You can regularly commute anything upto 10-15mi each way without too much difficulty (yes I know a lot of people do more, but for a comfortable varied life <1hour travel is good). Having to change transport modes more than once is very slow!

Spontaneity - with a car you can just go, if you're PT or bike, you will need to have thought about travel beforehand. Or at least know the local connections very well.
Weather - suitable clothing is your friend.
Money - this is tricky to calculate! petrol costs for a trip are much cheaper than almost anything but a bike - however cars cost more than petrol! But if you do own a car it is more efficient to use it, rather than paying for it to sit on a driveway! Trains and taxis are very expensive up front, because you don't notice all the hidden costs of the car ownership. Train travel for two adults is almost certainly more expensive than driving - depending on how many trips you make.
Hobbies - cars are great for hobbies, getting to obscure locations carrying heavy kit etc. if you don't have suitable friends for lifts, or don't have such hobbies then it might not matter to you. The only reason I'm considering buying a car (for at least 5 years worth of considering) is that once a month or so I'd want it for my non-cycling hobby....
Friends - if you do have local friends who give you lifts don't take them for granted, buy them drinks and pay petrol!
Online - vast amounts of shopping can now be done online!
Many things are set-up with the default assumption of car. You have to learn to think slightly differently about how to approach such issues, it doesn't mean they're not achievable, but at times its another problem that you don't need.

I would thoroughly recommend getting a driving license - it's a useful piece of ID, gives you some form of appreciation of other road users, and allows hire cars for really hard to reach locations.

If none of the above seem too onerous Give yourself at least 6months to a year car-free, to work through the problems. You can always buy a car later.


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## ColinJ (11 Apr 2016)

biking_fox said:


> Train travel for two adults is almost certainly more expensive than driving - depending on how many trips you make.


I now have a Senior railcard but for couples who do a lot of rail journeys together, the Two Together railcard would be a worthwhile investment. It costs £30/year and it gives one third off the price of tickets.


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## MichaelW2 (11 Apr 2016)

Car free or car-lite? If you can arrange work and home to be within cycling distance, th need to own a car diminishes. Cars cost about £1000/year to own, you can use this money to buy a selection of bikes, eg fast ones, pub bikes, all-weather ones, folders. A bike-trailer helps a lot with moving stuff and making big shopping trips.
Car clubs are good for short duration hire. Car rental can be expensive but it comes out of your extra £1000. You can hire the right size and shape for your needs. Many workplaces have special arrangements with their car-lease companies for reduced rates.
Cars have their uses, as do removal vans and passenger airliners.


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## classic33 (11 Apr 2016)

@biking_fox, what do you do if you can't apply for a driving licence?


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## mjr (11 Apr 2016)

ColinJ said:


> (Before someone suggests it - the council does not allow pedal-powered vehicles into the waste disposal centre!)


Blimey, is that even legal? I would hope that it's politically untenable in most places, as I bike some fair-sized loads into the "household waste recycling centre" both here in Norfolk and previously in North Somerset.



biking_fox said:


> But if you do own a car it is more efficient to use it, rather than paying for it to sit on a driveway!


I'd dispute that in general. There are ranges where it's true (for example, single-person journeys longer than 10 miles but shorter than two hours driving) but I think it's not generally true. There's both the fact that a load of running costs are usage-dependent and that the driver's time isn't free and that driving gives none of the health benefits of cycling. However, most people are so used to just swallowing all those extra costs and keep on sucking the tail pipe of the car in front...


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## ColinJ (11 Apr 2016)

mjray said:


> Blimey, is that even legal? I would hope that it's politically untenable in most places, as I bike some fair-sized loads into the "household waste recycling centre" both here in Norfolk and previously in North Somerset.


I don't know if it is legal.

They definitely have a 'no pedestrians, vehicles only' rule. It depends on whether the workers there classed a bike or other pedal-powered machine as a 'vehicle'. The 'no pedestrians' rule is pretty stupid because everybody has to get out of their vehicles a few metres beyond the gates to dispose of their rubbish. 

There is a 6' 2" height restriction - perhaps they are worried about us banging our heads as we go in!


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## classic33 (11 Apr 2016)

mjray said:


> Blimey, is that even legal? I would hope that it's politically untenable in most places, as I bike some fair-sized loads into the "household waste recycling centre" both here in Norfolk and previously in North Somerset.





ColinJ said:


> I don't know if it is legal.
> 
> They definitely have a 'no pedestrians, vehicles only' rule. It depends on whether the workers there classed a bike or other pedal-powered machine as a 'vehicle'. The 'no pedestrians' rule is pretty stupid because everybody has to get out of their vehicles a few metres beyond the gates to dispose of their rubbish.
> 
> There is a 6' 2" height restriction - perhaps they are worried about us banging our heads as we go in!




Reasons for not allowing pedal cycles onto the recycling centres include:
"A pedal cycle is not a legal road vehicle". We are pedestrians!
"Unsafe, onsite working practices", these include the dropping of skips onto people and or their vehicle.
As a pedestrian, no steel shell to save us, we could be injured if one were to fall on top of us! These skips are dragged up/pulled up onto the lorry by a hook and arm.


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## ColinJ (11 Apr 2016)

classic33 said:


> Reasons for not allowing pedal cycles onto the recycling centres include:
> "A pedal cycle is a legal road vehicle". We are pedestrians!


Did you mean _NOT_ a legal road vehicle?



classic33 said:


> Reasons for not allowing pedal cycles onto the recycling centres include:
> "Unsafe, onsite working practices", these include the dropping of skips onto people and or their vehicle.
> As a pedestrian, no steel shell to save us, we could be injured if one were to fall on top of us! These skips are dragged up/pulled up onto the lorry by a hook and arm.


Everybody has to get out of the cars/vans anyway to dump their stuff. The whole thing is bonkers!


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## classic33 (11 Apr 2016)

ColinJ said:


> Did you mean _NOT_ a legal road vehicle?
> 
> 
> Everybody has to get out of the cars/vans anyway to dump their stuff. The whole thing is bonkers!


Genuine answers given by the council. And I did miss the word "not" out. Backspaced to far, now corrected, thanks


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## ColinJ (11 Apr 2016)

classic33 said:


> Genuine answers given by the council. And I did miss the word "not" out. Backspaced to far, now corrected, thanks
> View attachment 124558


Flipping heck - you couldn't make it up!


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## classic33 (11 Apr 2016)

ColinJ said:


> Flipping heck - you couldn't make it up!


No. Even made apply to VOSA, for the registered keeper of a trailer. And got it, much to their suprise.

Same council by the way.


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## biking_fox (12 Apr 2016)

classic33 said:


> @biking_fox, what do you do if you can't apply for a driving licence?


Shrug. If you can't then you can't. 

Get a passport. Government ID is at times very valuable - mortgages and officialdom in general, and when you do want it, you don't want to be waiting months for it to arrive!
You can't hire care, so you'll be on taxi, when you have to! I have used taxi to get large loads home from BnQ etc. they don't mind.


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## Sheffield_Tiger (17 Apr 2016)

ColinJ said:


> Before someone suggests it - the council does not allow pedal-powered vehicles into the waste disposal centre!



That's rubbish (boom boom!)
No, seriously...my nearest "council tip / Veolia Recycling Centre" does allow cycles although I had to email to be sure and I always take a copy of my email that clearly states that my bike and trailer is allowed and is not classed as "on foot" nor does the trailer need the permit that applies to motor vehicles with trailers


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## Brains (17 Apr 2016)

OP

All down to where you live and your lifestyle
If you live in a large town/City then car free may be the way to go
Live out in the sticks and car driving is not optional

As it appears you have already passed your test (many have not), then no need to buy until you need to (and can afford to do so)

I've had vehicles since i was a teenager, but SWIMBO has never taken the test, we get by.
I have a good friend who passed his test 25 years ago and and not driven since that day.
I've therefore driven him tens of thousands of miles since, which is probably not reasonable.


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## captain nemo1701 (18 Apr 2016)

Although I passed my test in 1981, I have never owned a car. I've now got to the point of driving company vans etc, for the last 20 years or so, if I'm out in traffic then I tend to get all stressed and look jealously at all the cyclists passing me in the bus lane whilst I'm jammed up. I find driving these days to be a hassle and now that I'm office bound most of the time, I am really _really_ enjoying not driving. If I need to get stuff (like a ton of garden compost) I can borrow a van for the weekend. But my main transport is bicycle, bus & good old Shanks' Pony.

I have seen our culture become massively car -dependent over the last 30 years or so, when we had a pro-car Tory government in power for far too long. Policy up to the 90's was cars and roads come first, other forms of transport aren't worth looking at. That's probably why the Tories had trains and buses privatised as the car was considered to be the future. Now, I think the pendulum is beginning to swing the other way to rebalance the system.

I live and work in Bristol (allegedly a cycling city). The local right-wing tabloid rag is anti cycling and perpetually demonises us and gives a voice to the petrolhead mafia whom are constantly complaining that our mayor is anti-car. We've got some new cycling infrastructure and 20 mph speed limits, much to the disgust of some of the aforementioned mafia. But despite all this, I find living car free is worth it for the peace and stress -free life it gives me. My bike is my steed, takes me where I want to be with minimum fuss. Buses are OK and one goes from behind my house to the local train station in 20 mins. I do work with some folk who insist on living out in the countryside and then moan about sitting in jams on the commute into Bristol. Well, if that's their chosen life, they shouldn't whinge about traffic!!.

People should try to go car free and adapt their lifestyle accordingly. When moving home, why not live nearer to your workplace or on a main bus/train route?. It's cheaper and less stress than sitting in jams all the time. Unfortunately, some folk would rather look at it from a driving point of view and plan their life accordingly.

So to the OP, carry on being car free!


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## MiK1138 (18 Apr 2016)

classic33 said:


> I'm going to ask another question here, for the regular walkers.
> How many give a distance, point A to point B, in the time it'd take you to walk it?


yup, not a very acurate 1 though, everywhere is a "10 minute walk" from my house


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## classic33 (18 Apr 2016)

MiK1138 said:


> yup, not a very acurate 1 though, everywhere is a "10 minute walk" from my house


How many actually take 10 minutes though?


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## ColinJ (18 Apr 2016)

classic33 said:


> I'm going to ask another question here, for the regular walkers.
> How many give a distance, point A to point B, in the time it'd take you to walk it?


I state distance AND time, but I always qualify it because most people don't walk those kind of distances/over hills/at my pace.

I would say something like: "It is 3 miles with 500 ft of ascent. It would take me 45 minutes at a brisk walk, or 60-75 minutes if I were meandering along enjoying the scenery. It would probably take you an hour and a half"!

I used to walk 4.5 miles from where I lived in Hebden Bridge to the centre of Todmorden along the Rochdale canal towpath in about 55 minutes. When my mum and older sister used to visit, they would take over 2 hours.


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## hennbell (18 Apr 2016)

It is possible to live without a car but it can be hard.

I a commute 5 miles to work and back and the city i live in is about 10 miles from one end to the other. Cycling in the summer is the best way to get around. In the winter we get lots of snow and it is very cold, so cycling while possible does take some work.

My family has a single car and in the winter there is no way my wife could ride a bicycle. In the summer she goes lots of places by bicycle, we have a chariot and she hauls the child and gets things like shopping done. I also have a utility trailer that connects to the bicycle that can be used as a golf trolley. So we do our best to use bicycles when possible.

But we live in Canada and we routinely have to complete long trips and public transportation is not a viable option or not an option at all.
I am currently not able to cycle due to rehab after a knee operation. Having to rely upon others to pick me up and drop me off sucks! I have an excellent group of friends and family to assist me but it would be much more convenient too have a second car.


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## Effyb4 (18 Apr 2016)

It takes me between 15 and 20 minutes to walk, depending on how I am feeling. It is very flat around here though. I am happy to walk up to 2 miles each way, but would jump on the bike for any longer journeys.


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## Lonestar (18 Apr 2016)

I haven't got a car and refuse to use buses or the tube.It's been nearly two years since I last traveled on the tube or bus...


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## mustang1 (18 Apr 2016)

Mrs Mustang once pondered the idea of getting rid of one of our cars and I gave her the most oddest look. 

So we never talked about it again.

Then I told her I will get a motorbike and she gave me an odd look. Needless to say, it was never mentioned.


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## _aD (18 Apr 2016)

I'm 35, never driven a car and have run a computer repair business for 12 years. Fit, strong, healthy and hale. With a cycle trailer there's very little you can't do. Learn to read the weather and the forecast, plan appropriately, save up and buy some expensive waterproofs and look after them. Get some cycle shorts for the longer rides - lycra if you wish, covered up or not, and a pannier rack. You'll wonder why so many people are dependent on a motorised box just to move around.

I live in a small village in East Hants, close to a railway station which is probably important if you choose to live a car-free life.


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## migrantwing (19 Apr 2016)

I moved from a busy town (midpoint between Walsall and Wolverhampton, West Midlands) about three years ago, to a rural/semi rural little village/town 30 miles North in Staffordshire. I have never owned a driving licence and, as of late, have picked up quite a bit of work about 15 miles East of where I live. There are a lot of niggly hills and climbs on my bike ride to work and it takes me anything between an hour and an hour and 15 mins to get to where I need to be for work. The train journey to the same place would be a 15-20 minute walk to town, then a train 10 miles North, which takes 12 minutes, a 30+ minute wait at the station, then another 15-20 minute train journey to the town of my employment. Then there is a 10-15 minute walk from the town to the area where I have the work. All this costs close on £10 one way. I have no idea how much a return ticket costs. Plus the fact that there is one train every hour, outbound and inbound. The missus has taken me to work in her car a few times in the mornings when the weather has been particularly bad and/or I'm too tired to want to cycle. This journey takes 45 mins or so on a good day. This is all at around 7am. I choose to ride my bike to work, put my 8-10 hours in and ride back home.


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## mjr (19 Apr 2016)

migrantwing said:


> All this costs close on £10 one way. I have no idea how much a return ticket costs.


£10.10 usually, with our bizarre rail fare system!


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## screenman (19 Apr 2016)

Using the car I was away from the house for work and leisure for 13 hours yesterday, using public transport would not have been possible, using a bike would have added about 6 hours to my journey times.

Of course it is possible to go car free, but it would not be easy to take the caravan 150 miles away today.


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## migrantwing (19 Apr 2016)

mjray said:


> £10.10 usually, with our bizarre rail fare system!



Haha! Indeed, indeed


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## donnydave (19 Apr 2016)

Car lite for me. Public transport is effin useless around here. Bicycle for commuting, car reserved for utility and pleasure. Longer trips often we get the train depending on the destination and what we are doing when we get there. Currently I drive to work one day a week because I have a guitar lesson straight after work. I suppose if I really wanted to I _could_ cycle home (12.5 miles each way) attach a trailer, put guitar case in trailer, cycle to guitar lesson (8 miles - move the guitar lesson to a later slot) then cycle home. Or I could pay more to have the guitar teacher come to me but all I've done there is move my reliance on the car over to someone else so the net benefit to the world is zero.

Cars are a big part of my life, going to shows, building my kit car, and now track days and euro road trips with friends etc so I wouldn't want to live without my cars however I'm not a slave to the car, instead they are my hobby.


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## mjr (19 Apr 2016)

donnydave said:


> Car lite for me. Public transport is effin useless around here. Bicycle for commuting, car reserved for utility and pleasure.


Pleasure? I didn't have you figured for a masochist! 



> I suppose if I really wanted to I _could_ cycle home (12.5 miles each way) attach a trailer, put guitar case in trailer, cycle to guitar lesson (8 miles - move the guitar lesson to a later slot) then cycle home. Or I could pay more to have the guitar teacher come to me but all I've done there is move my reliance on the car over to someone else so the net benefit to the world is zero.


Not exactly - the guitar teacher might be doing 16 car miles whereas presumably your triangular home-work-guitar-home loop is longer... and their previous lesson might be closer or they might be able to travel some other way.

I'm surprised that a guitar needs a trailer but I don't play one and I don't remember how people used to transport them. Most modern cyclists seem to ride with the case diagonal across the back, but I did find some strap a padded hardshell case to a butcher's rack or build a custom rack for behind the rear wheel. I don't know if there's something like http://www.zmotorcase.com/ for bicycles. Oooh https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/best-way-to-take-an-acoustic-guitar-on-a-tour.85887/ but drat no solution there.


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## classic33 (19 Apr 2016)

ColinJ said:


> I state distance AND time, but I always qualify it because most people don't walk those kind of distances/over hills/at my pace.
> 
> I would say something like: "It is 3 miles with 500 ft of ascent. It would take me 45 minutes at a brisk walk, or 60-75 minutes if I were meandering along enjoying the scenery. It would probably take you an hour and a half"!
> 
> I used to walk 4.5 miles from where I lived in Hebden Bridge to the centre of Todmorden along the Rochdale canal towpath in about 55 minutes. When my mum and older sister used to visit, they would take over 2 hours.


On mi tod, Hebden Bridge to Heptonstall is approx half an hour.


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## ColinJ (19 Apr 2016)

classic33 said:


> On mi tod, Hebden Bridge to Heptonstall is approx half an hour.


I was using that walk to get my legs, heart and lungs working again after my illness in 2012/2013. At first, I couldn't manage it. Eventually, I could cope, but with multiple stops on the way and taking about 40 minutes. Eventually, I got it down to sub-20 but I was usually meeting a friend at a cafe in Heptonstall and I was arriving dripping sweat so I slowed down to about 30 minutes pace in order to arrive in a less sweaty condition!


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## classic33 (20 Apr 2016)

ColinJ said:


> I was using that walk to get my legs, heart and lungs working again after my illness in 2012/2013. At first, I couldn't manage it. Eventually, I could cope, but with multiple stops on the way and taking about 40 minutes. Eventually, I got it down to sub-20 but I was usually meeting a friend at a cafe in Heptonstall and I was arriving dripping sweat so I slowed down to about 30 minutes pace in order to arrive in a less sweaty condition!


Fair play to you


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## ColinJ (20 Apr 2016)

classic33 said:


> Fair play to you


It got me fit enough to be able to handle hilly 20 mile rides almost as soon as I started cycling again, though the steeper climbs still bothered me for more than a year after that. 

I think many people underestimate the value of walking. Brisk walking (especially brisk walking over rough, hilly terrain) is probably even better for health than cycling because it is load bearing. The problem comes if one's joints are damaged, when that load bearing may not be tolerable.


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## lolly (18 Jun 2016)

I would stay as you are for now. Travel costs shouldn't be a problem if your employer is willing to reimburse your fares. If you find life is too impractical or frustrating without a car, then you can get one. However if you buy a car then sell it again, you will almost certainly lose money.


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## Lonestar (18 Jun 2016)

It is a lifestyle choice, I would struggle to enjoy my one with a car.


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## cycle_bug (19 Jun 2016)

Lonestar said:


> It is a lifestyle choice, I would struggle to enjoy my one with a car.



I struggle to enjoy mines as I also own a car, mostly because I _want _to spend money on bike accessories and upgrades.. but _if I must own the car_ then I _*must*_ spend money keeping IT working *:-/ *


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## dave r (19 Jun 2016)

cycle_bug said:


> I struggle to enjoy mines as I also own a car, mostly because I _want _to spend money on bike accessories and upgrades.. but _if I must own the car_ then I _*must*_ spend money keeping IT working *:-/ *



Its crazy how it works, 30 years car free no problem, now I've had a car for about 4 years I don't want to be without one.


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## classic33 (26 Jun 2016)

dave r said:


> Its crazy how it works, 30 years car free no problem, now I've had a car for about 4 years I don't want to be without one.


Try a velomobile!!


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## dave r (26 Jun 2016)

classic33 said:


> Try a velomobile!!



I don't fancy those things, I've seen one on the road and it was a bit too low


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## Kominic (14 Jul 2016)

I'm in the unfortunate position that I don't need one; 

Only go to/from work. Don't do big shops. Don't have lots of friends. Already have a girlfriend. Don't have kids. Can cycle 60 miles comfortably (and catch the train back at the end). Don't live out in the sticks. Have no reliance on public transport. Live in a very hilly part of the country so cycling is still fun. Only go to London a few times a year so can afford the train. Nobody whos opinion I respect shames me for not having a car. Vice versa for the few that do. Would have nowhere to go if I did have a car.......

I could go on. It's a vicious cycle.


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## confusedcyclist (25 Jul 2016)

I use my car now for shopping, or social stuff that's really far away, otherwise I bike or bus it.


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## ColinJ (25 Jul 2016)

Kominic said:


> I'm in the *un*fortunate position that I don't need one;


You don't have a car and don't need one but you wish that you _did_ need one so that you could feel bad about not having one?


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## MichaelW2 (25 Jul 2016)

I had about 3 years of car commuting where "go" meant "drive". 
When I moved to Norwich I took up cycling again and never used my car. After a few months I sold it.
I use the bike for all local transportation. I have a trailer (FreedomCarry Y-frame large) for hauling larger loads and would recommend a trailer of some sort for anyone going car free. I prefer a flatbed with a strap-on plastic box, for versatility.
I get the train if I need to go to London, I hire an appropriate sized van or car if I need one. For the past month I have been a member of the car club, which is really convenient. I have about 5 cars located within a few minutes walk and I can book them for 15mins + time slots.


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## Shut Up Legs (26 Jul 2016)

I've been car-free my whole life. In my early 20s, I started doing driving lessons (paid for by my Dad), and almost got to the stage of being able to drive comfortably, but then lost interest and abandoned the lessons (which didn't go down well with Dad). He spent the next few decades trying to convince me to get my driver's licence, and then gave up. I think he's resigned to me never getting one, plus he can see for himself how fit and young-looking it makes me, so I think he's happy with that.

Fortunately, I'm still more than fit enough to handle my 60km / day round-trip commute (with a lot of hill-climbing), and have no problem walking long distances, so I have no real dependence on trains, buses and trams.


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## Kominic (27 Jul 2016)

ColinJ said:


> You don't have a car and don't need one but you wish that you _did_ need one so that you could feel bad about not having one?



I'm a complex man. True story.


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## Starchivore (27 Jul 2016)

dave r said:


> Its crazy how it works, 30 years car free no problem, now I've had a car for about 4 years I don't want to be without one.



That's the same reason I don't want to get a smart phone... the dependency comes on quick!


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## dave r (27 Jul 2016)

Starchivore said:


> That's the same reason I don't want to get a smart phone... the dependency comes on quick!



I've had a smart phone for a couple of years now, but not dependant on it.


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## Starchivore (27 Jul 2016)

dave r said:


> I've had a smart phone for a couple of years now, but not dependant on it.



I can't take the risk!!


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## summerdays (27 Jul 2016)

dave r said:


> I've had a smart phone for a couple of years now, but not dependant on it.


I think I might be lying if I said that.... I can survive without it for bits, but rely on it far too much for finding out information when I'm not at home.


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## Jamieyorky (31 Jul 2016)

I'm also a car lite person, living only a mile and a half from work I cycle on most days, we have a people carrier but I only drive it when we go out as a family. My wife uses the car on a daily basis as she needs to get the kids to places and get to work.... Plus getting my wife on a bike will never happen.

I'm a sales executive for a car dealer so I make my money out of people buying cars but I'm sick to death of the sight of them, I've been offered a brand new company car every 6 months when the new plates come out, but I just don't want and need one.

I enjoy the cycle ride in come rain or shine and by the end of the day everyone else jumps into there cars and I pedal home feeling chilled after the days work.

So I want people to please buy cars at it will keep me in a job!!!!


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## Jamieyorky (31 Jul 2016)

User13710 said:


> I'd like that, but there are bits of it that I don't like so much ...



Like?


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## wheresthetorch (31 Jul 2016)




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## gavroche (31 Jul 2016)

I am 65 and always had a car since I was 20. I will carry on owning a car until the day I won't be able to drive. I can't imagine my life without a car. To me, a car means freedom and not having to rely on anyone.


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## RedRider (31 Jul 2016)

gavroche said:


> I am 65 and always had a car since I was 20. I will carry on owning a car until the day I won't be able to drive. I can't imagine my life without a car. To me, a car means freedom and not having to rely on anyone.


Free your mind and your bus pass will follow.


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## Drago (1 Aug 2016)

Instead of relying on a person he's relying on a machine.


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## Jamieyorky (1 Aug 2016)

User13710 said:


> I'm sorry, Jamieyorky, I was referring to the fact that your livelihood depends on people buying more cars. As you yourself acknowledge, this is a central dilemma.



That indeed it is, but it brings in the money


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## raleighnut (1 Aug 2016)

gavroche said:


> I am 65 and always had a car since I was 20. I will carry on owning a car until the day I won't be able to drive. I can't imagine my life without a car. To me, a car means freedom and not having to rely on anyone.


To me a bike means freedom, to the point where after my injury I bought a trike to stay mobile.


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## donnydave (1 Aug 2016)

One of my colleagues used to get various buses and a bit of walking to get to work and he spent upwards of 3 hours a day travelling. He tried cycling for 2 days but is desperately unfit and didn't like it at all and has no interest in trying it again. At the time I had a wonky old car that was worthless and I no longer needed so I gave it to him. His life has improved immeasurably as he now only spends 35 minutes a day travelling to and from work. His boss took me to one side and told me "you've done a terrible thing you realise - he is now completely and utterly dependent on cars and will be a slave to them forever more"

Whoops.


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## Jamieyorky (1 Aug 2016)

donnydave said:


> One of my colleagues used to get various buses and a bit of walking to get to work and he spent upwards of 3 hours a day travelling. He tried cycling for 2 days but is desperately unfit and didn't like it at all and has no interest in trying it again. At the time I had a wonky old car that was worthless and I no longer needed so I gave it to him. His life has improved immeasurably as he now only spends 35 minutes a day travelling to and from work. His boss took me to one side and told me "you've done a terrible thing you realise - he is now completely and utterly dependent on cars and will be a slave to them forever more"
> 
> Whoops.



when i passed my driving test i swore to myself that i wouldn't stop riding, having been riding as long as i can remember, doing bmx, mountain biking, trials biking etc etc....


All my mates got there first car's and have probably never ridden there bike since 

Its so easy to depend on your car


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## donnydave (1 Aug 2016)

Jamieyorky said:


> when i passed my driving test i swore to myself that i wouldn't stop riding, having been riding as long as i can remember, doing bmx, mountain biking, trials biking etc etc....
> 
> 
> All my mates got there first car's and have probably never ridden there bike since
> ...



"Bikes are for poor people and children" is a depressingly common attitude


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## mjr (1 Aug 2016)

donnydave said:


> "Bikes are for poor people and children" is a depressingly common attitude


...whereas those who depend on cars are so much poorer in so many ways: running costs, paying extra to get problems fixed in record time or hiring cars, no time to stop and look at the astonishing things we see while cycling and so on. (I have a car but do my damnedest not to depend on it. They are fickle temperamental things, even when they seem to be behaving.)


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## gavroche (1 Aug 2016)

raleighnut said:


> To me a bike means freedom, to the point where after my injury I bought a trike to stay mobile.


They both mean freedom but in different ways. A car is freedom to travel long distances, to carry things, to go out with my wife. A bike is freedom to spend time on my own and to enjoy nature at a leisurely pace .


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## mjr (1 Aug 2016)

gavroche said:


> A car is freedom to travel long distances, to carry things, to go out with my wife.


Driving long distances is something you do when you need to transport awkward things or are in a country with no good long-distance transport system except flying (USA! USA!). In civilised European countries, one loads a bicycle onto the train or boat and does something more useful with the bulk of the time.


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