# Different types of hills



## rugby bloke (19 Jan 2016)

The corner of Northants, Beds and Bucks where I ride seems to have two types of hills - Long but not particularly steep and a steady gradient, and short sharp.
Over time I have found the longer climbs easier but find that the short sharp climbs always have me puffing away like an old steam train by the top. The worst is the climb into my village, which I seem to average around 5 mph on ! Does anyone have any tips about improving climbing performance on short steep climbs ... I'm hoping I'm not alone on this one.


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## Citius (19 Jan 2016)

The steeper the climb, the more of your effort goes in to overcoming gravity, as opposed to moving forward. One option is to lose weight, another option is to get fitter. Another option is to do both.


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## potsy (19 Jan 2016)

Citius said:


> The steeper the climb, the more of your effort goes in to overcoming gravity, as opposed to moving forward. One option is to lose weight, another option is to get fitter. Another option is to do both.


Yet another option is to get some training advice from our resident expert, ping @blazed


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## Markymark (19 Jan 2016)

Citius said:


> The steeper the climb, the more of your effort goes in to overcoming gravity, as opposed to moving forward. One option is to lose weight, another option is to get fitter. Another option is to do both.


...another option is to move house.


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## fossyant (19 Jan 2016)

Markymark said:


> ...another option is to move house.



Call yourself a cyclist ?

Keep trying is the answer. The more you ride, the better. Steep hills will always have you huffing and puffing, but you'll go faster. It never get's easier, but you get faster.

We have just about every sort of hill in the Peaks. Long drags of 5 or more miles, steady 10% hills of 2 miles to short steep 1in4 hills, as well as horrible ones that the gradient varies between 1 in 10 and 1 in 4 all the way up. You just get faster at riding them.


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## raleighnut (19 Jan 2016)

Lower gears.


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## rugby bloke (19 Jan 2016)

Citius said:


> The steeper the climb, the more of your effort goes in to overcoming gravity, as opposed to moving forward. One option is to lose weight, another option is to get fitter. Another option is to do both.



Its interesting that over time I have done both of those, plus changed bike. Everything has improved ... apart from climbing the short sharp ones. It amazes me that I can climb Box Hill without any problem cannot manage the final 400 metres to my house. More practice I guess.


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## Markymark (19 Jan 2016)

rugby bloke said:


> Its interesting that over time I have done both of those, plus changed bike. Everything has improved ... apart from climbing the short sharp ones. It amazes me that I can climb Box Hill without any problem cannot manage the final 400 metres to my house. More practice I guess.


Are you keeping up your cadence or grinding in too high a gear?


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## rugby bloke (19 Jan 2016)

I'm right down the gears, usually try to leave one final cog so I've got somewhere to go. Cadence may be an issue - I think I try to go at them too hard rather than find a comfortable rhythm.


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## Citius (19 Jan 2016)

rugby bloke said:


> Cadence may be an issue - I think I try to go at them too hard rather than find a comfortable rhythm.



Cadence is not the issue - the issue is your relative ability to push the pedals at the appropriate cadence. Which is a fitness issue.


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## ozboz (19 Jan 2016)

I have problems on steep climbs , so when I got my new bike , I had a triple chain ring fitted ,cost £30 extra , it is by modern standards a heavy bike, yep slow, lot of pedaling , lot of puffing , but it does get me to the top ! The bike does bob up and down a bit on the back end also , I read somewhere , maybe CW , that In Italy ( I think ) it is common to see bikes with triple rings fitted because of the hills , does help ,


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## Dec66 (19 Jan 2016)

I'm guessing from your username that you like a spot of rugger? And, if so, I'm making a further assumption that you're built accordingly?

If I'm right, I have some bad news for you... You will always find those steep climbs hard. It's a matter of physiology. Your muscle mass will work against you as your cardiovascular system has to work harder to push the extra weight up the hill.

I speak from bitter experience; I'm built like a middleweight boxer, but with bigger legs. I can blat up Box Hill at a pretty good rate of knots, but something like York Hill or Sundridge Hill has me up off the saddle on the granny ring, pumping away, blowing for tugs and swearing.

To echo what everyone else says; you can get better, by practice, practice and practice (and by losing weight, but obviously that's easier said than done if you're low in body fat already but carry a lot of muscle). However, it's always going to hurt, and you'll never keep up with those 6' 3" stick insects whipping past you and turning 90rpm (till you get to the descent, anyway).


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## MontyVeda (19 Jan 2016)

eBike?


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## Sbudge (19 Jan 2016)

rugby bloke said:


> Its interesting that over time I have done both of those, plus changed bike. Everything has improved ... apart from climbing the short sharp ones. It amazes me that I can climb Box Hill without any problem cannot manage the final 400 metres to my house. More practice I guess.



I thought it was just me! I've exactly the same issue. I've started doing a regular steep hill detour at the end of my commute home to see if that helps...we'll see.


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## Dogtrousers (19 Jan 2016)

Citius said:


> Cadence is not the issue - the issue is your relative ability to push the pedals at the appropriate cadence. Which is a fitness issue.


Citius, you are indefagitable.

I'm planning a post in which I outline my plans to combine squats in the gym (for leg strength), a high cadence (for efficiency) and patterned tyres (for extra grip) to improve my hill climbing. Just to see if it pushes you over the edge.


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## MichaelW2 (19 Jan 2016)

rugby bloke said:


> The corner of Northants, Beds and Bucks where I ride seems to have two types of hills



When I lived in East Susses, I recall two types of hill. Ones that go up and ones that go down. I had most problems on ones that go up, but down hills are not without danger.
For up hills, I found that using low gears usually worked to match my power output to the gradient and load at a comfortable and efficient cadence..


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## Citius (19 Jan 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> Citius, you are indefagitable.
> 
> I'm planning a post in which I outline my plans to combine squats in the gym (for leg strength), a high cadence (for efficiency) and patterned tyres (for extra grip) to improve my hill climbing. Just to see if it pushes you over the edge.



It won't - I'll just keep correcting you..


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## mythste (19 Jan 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> Citius, you are indefagitable.



Thats a much more delicate word than I think a lot of us had in mind. Bravo!


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## Citius (19 Jan 2016)

mythste said:


> Thats a much more delicate word than I think a lot of us had in mind. Bravo!



Slightly unnecessary. I've yet to read your contribution to this debate.


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## rugby bloke (19 Jan 2016)

Dec66 said:


> I'm guessing from your username that you like a spot of rugger? And, if so, I'm making a further assumption that you're built accordingly?
> 
> If I'm right, I have some bad news for you... You will always find those steep climbs hard. It's a matter of physiology. Your muscle mass will work against you as your cardiovascular system has to work harder to push the extra weight up the hill.
> 
> ...



That could be part of the problem ! I'm not very tall, hence short leavers but carrying a lot of muscle mass (plus some extra gut I've picked up over the years). I guess its just a matter of putting up with it and getting out there and practicing. It would be ok but the final part of my wobble up the hill is past the village pub, I'm sure its a source of amusement !


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## Ajax Bay (19 Jan 2016)

rugby bloke said:


> any tips about improving climbing performance on short steep climbs



Once a week, go out, warm up and then do repetitions of your local steep hill, with a little rest at the top, a steady roll back down, and another at the bottom (say a minute, riding round very gently to keep the legs turning over and the lactate flushing out). On each climb try to maintain a constant speed from bottom to top. Take it steady on the first one and use that as a benchmark. Decide before the first of these, how many reps you're going to do - say 6 if the climbs take one minute or more to climb. Warm down.

This will train your 'steep climbing' muscles and offer the opportunity for you to mix spinning (if you can climb this gradient sitting) and standing - you may discover a formula which suits you better. Your performance will improve and mentally you will have framed each steep little hill as entirely doable, which after a few weekly sessions like this, they will be. No more than once a week.

This session is hard; it's meant to be, but it doesn't consume many calories so does not justify a(n extra) bun for tea.


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## mythste (19 Jan 2016)

Citius said:


> Slightly unnecessary. I've yet to read your contribution to this debate.



And we've yet to read yours.


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## KneesUp (19 Jan 2016)

rugby bloke said:


> I'm right down the gears, usually try to leave one final cog so I've got somewhere to go. Cadence may be an issue - I think I try to go at them too hard rather than find a comfortable rhythm.


You need to go to that somewhere 

(and then when you can do it in bottom gear, try it in second, and so on)


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## Citius (19 Jan 2016)

mythste said:


> And we've yet to read yours.



I have two relevant posts on this thread, compared to none of yours. I think I win.


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## Dec66 (19 Jan 2016)

rugby bloke said:


> That could be part of the problem ! I'm not very tall, hence short leavers but carrying a lot of muscle mass (plus some extra gut I've picked up over the years). I guess its just a matter of putting up with it and getting out there and practicing. It would be ok but the final part of my wobble up the hill is past the village pub, I'm sure its a source of amusement !


Do you go to a gym?

You know those stepper machines the ladies use? Get on one of those, crank it up to the highest setting on which you can keep up 110 steps a minute, and do that for 20 mins with appropriate warm up/cool down either end.

Combine that with the programme @Ajax Bay suggested, and I reckon you'll find it easier (it'll still hurt, mind).


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## youngoldbloke (19 Jan 2016)

I quite enjoy the short steep out of the saddle attack - I'd rather a short steep one than a long long 'false flat', but even worse is the long drag followed by the long steep, or vice versa - edit - basically any with the word 'long' associated


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## Sbudge (19 Jan 2016)

KneesUp said:


> You need to go to that somewhere
> 
> (and then when you can do it in bottom gear, try it in second, and so on)



There are a quite a few hills at the weekends near me where I get that "what do you mean there isn't another gear?" moment. So far I've only had to turn back on a hill once (at the very end of a long ride) but plenty of them I've gone up slower than you'd imagine possible whilst remaining vertical.


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## rugby bloke (19 Jan 2016)

Nice to know its not just me then !


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## Sbudge (19 Jan 2016)

youngoldbloke said:


> I quite enjoy the short steep out of the saddle attack - I'd rather a short steep one than a long long 'false flat', but even worse is the long drag followed by the long steep, or vice versa - edit - basically any with the word 'long' associated



Try the ride from Great Missenden to Dunsmore:-

Long uphill drag, short 15%+ climb, quick 2 minute descent, dead stop turning at the bottom (so no speed to carry through), 20%+ short climb. The last little bit really takes the ****, it's dead straight too so you as you turn you get the psychological impact of just looking UP!

Just found this, says it more eloquently than me (but doesn't include the bit about the long uphill drag just to get to the start!) https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?id=434502679975192&story_fbid=770905556334901


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## Big Dave laaa (19 Jan 2016)

They never stop hurting, you should just get progressively quicker.


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## Fab Foodie (19 Jan 2016)

youngoldbloke said:


> I quite enjoy the short steep out of the saddle attack -



Me too. I've decent leg strength with compromised cardio. After years of fixed riding and gas-pipe 3 speeds in native Devon I find climbing out of the saddle comes naturally (except on the Brompton).
You can never have too low gearing either.

Practice does make perfect however.


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## DaveReading (19 Jan 2016)

Shock news: how fast you can get up a hill depends on how fit you are.


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## Citius (19 Jan 2016)

DaveReading said:


> Shock news: how fast you can get up a hill depends on how fit you are.


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## Montydog (19 Jan 2016)

rugby bloke said:


> Nice to know its not just me then !




same here fella....practice makes perfect....hopefully


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## ayceejay (19 Jan 2016)

All the hills I have ever climbed whether short and steep or long and steep have the same adjective attached to them, it begins with an 'f' and is spelled tuliping.


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## pawl (19 Jan 2016)

MontyVeda said:


> eBike?






E Bikes.! Is that what they say up in Yorkshire .


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## albion (19 Jan 2016)

Different types?

Well we have the Up Hill and of course the Down Hill.
And if you have holes in your socks a Darned Hill might be the job.


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## PK99 (19 Jan 2016)

albion said:


> Different types?
> 
> Well we have the Up Hill and of course the Down Hill.
> And if you have holes in your socks a Darned Hill might be the job.



And if you don't have enough hills and want some more you have a f****** hill.


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## Cuchilo (19 Jan 2016)

ozboz said:


> I have problems on steep climbs , so when I got my new bike , I had a triple chain ring fitted ,cost £30 extra , it is by modern standards a heavy bike, yep slow, lot of pedaling , lot of puffing , but it does get me to the top ! The bike does bob up and down a bit on the back end also , I read somewhere , maybe CW , that In Italy ( I think ) it is common to see bikes with triple rings fitted because of the hills , does help ,


Try Nightingale lane


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## ozboz (19 Jan 2016)

Cuchilo said:


> Try Nightingale lane


Where is Nightingale Hill ?


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## Cuchilo (19 Jan 2016)

ozboz said:


> Where is Nightingale Hill ?


Richmond hill , From Petersham road and past the nice hotel up to the top of Richmond hill . I do it on a standard double like a beast ........
and a dribbling idiot when i get to the top 

https://www.strava.com/segments/761305


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## ozboz (19 Jan 2016)

Cuchilo said:


> Richmond hill , From Petersham road and past the nice hotel up to the top of Richmond hill . I do it on a standard double like a beast ........
> and a dribbling idiot when i get to the top
> 
> https://www.strava.com/segments/761305


Nope , not done that , done star an garter one , I'll have a go !!


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## Accy cyclist (19 Jan 2016)

I've been riding the hills around here for years. I haven't increased my speed(I wouldn't call it that!)but i have got out the habit of making excuses to stop a few times while climbing them. The stopping to check if anyone has rung my phone or to see where the other riders are has decreased significantly. I now tend to go up them in one movement. I think it was mind over matter. I just felt the need to stop because i was climbing a steep hill, even though i wasn't overly out of breath or had aching legs. The elderly gent who runs the Wednesday slow riders group caught me slacking quite a few times and rollocked me every time. I have to thank him for his encouragement in getting me out the habit of having an unnecessary skive!


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## Poacher (20 Jan 2016)

Sbudge said:


> There are a quite a few hills at the weekends near me...


Where are they in the rest of the week? 

Sorry, couldn't resist!


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## Heisenberg71 (20 Jan 2016)

Surprised nobody has mentioned the age old technique of getting a run up. 
Chucking a quick sprint on the flat leading in, then holding it for the first third of the short ramp gets you well up it with minimised effort. Then sit, drop a gear or two and dig in with cadence. Before you know it, you're there. 

Technique gets you so far, but I agree that the only long term sustainable solution is lose weight, get fitter and keep riding hills. There's no silver bullet.


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## nickyboy (20 Jan 2016)

Tekker depends on how long the effort is

More than about 3 minutes....seated, riding at threshold

Less than 3 minutes...out of the saddle, beyond threshold

and don't underestimate the effect of where in a long ride the hill is. I live on a 16% 300m hill. In itself it's no problem. But at the end of a long, hard ride it's a real struggle


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## Ajax Bay (20 Jan 2016)

Heisenberg71 said:


> the age old technique of getting a run up.
> Chucking a quick sprint on the flat leading in, then holding it for the first third of the short ramp gets you well up it with minimised effort



A quick sprint on the flat, if there is one, just before the bottom of a climb will result in one reaching lactate threshold that much earlier on the hill with net negative performance effect. Kinetic energy of bike and rider (gained by work as opposed to downhill, with a good proportion of the work wasted against (air) frictional drag at those higher 'sprint' speeds) converts rather poorly to any potential energy advantage. So this approach is only worth it for a very small/short ramp, and even then you're better waiting and putting the power on as the gradient starts. YMMV.


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## Doyleyburger (20 Jan 2016)

Hit all the hills in the 'big dog'..that'll make you stronger 



Sort your gearing out so you've got at least a 32 at the back to help your cadence. But as most have said, you will improve with practice anyway


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## Heisenberg71 (21 Jan 2016)

Ajax Bay said:


> A quick sprint on the flat, if there is one, just before the bottom of a climb will result in one reaching lactate threshold that much earlier on the hill with net negative performance effect. Kinetic energy of bike and rider (gained by work as opposed to downhill, with a good proportion of the work wasted against (air) frictional drag at those higher 'sprint' speeds) converts rather poorly to any potential energy advantage. So this approach is only worth it for a very small/short ramp, and even then you're better waiting and putting the power on as the gradient starts. YMMV.



Agree, but I did refer to a "ramp" [type hill]. For these type of hills I would regularly lift the pace a bit leading to a ramp, gain some extra momentum whilst flat then throw a bigger cog in and spin my way up. Works for me. However clearly a "climb" is a completely different bag of onions. Wasn't the OP referring to his hill as "short sharp climbs" [ramp type]? I think we're saying the same thing really, aren't we?

All hills are there to be enjoyed. It could be worse, we could live in Holland, or even worse, Norfolk.


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## BEHMOTH66 (21 Jan 2016)

Citius said:


> Cadence is not the issue - the issue is your relative ability to push the pedals at the appropriate cadence. Which is a fitness issue.


He is a rugby bloke which means we tend to be quite big up top I'm 15 1/2 stone and 6'1" I have all that extra weight vs gravity. Simply if your a bigger bloke the harder it is to climb


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## cookie2 (21 Jan 2016)

Core exercises. Every push of the pedals needs a solid platform to work from.


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## rugby bloke (22 Jan 2016)

Thanks for all the feedback guys. No excuses then, loose the lard, improve the core and getting climbing. Nothing that can be done about the short, sprinters legs though !


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## Citius (22 Jan 2016)

I'd put core work a long way down the list - riding your bike will give your core all the workout it needs for cycling.


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## Shut Up Legs (22 Jan 2016)

rugby bloke said:


> Thanks for all the feedback guys. No excuses then, loose the lard, improve the core and getting climbing. Nothing that can be done about the short, sprinters legs though !


Short legs are an advantage for cycling up hills, because it means you can use a smaller (and hence lighter) bike. I wish my legs were shorter, but I'm 6'3" with leg length in proportion, which means a larger, heavier bike, and more work needed to get up the hills. I love cycling up hills, though, so just kept practicing it until it became easier.


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## Citius (22 Jan 2016)

Shut Up Legs said:


> Short legs are an advantage for cycling up hills, because it means you can use a smaller (and hence lighter) bike. I wish my legs were shorter, but I'm 6'3" with leg length in proportion, which means a larger, heavier bike, and more work needed to get up the hills



I'm not sure if you've thought that through properly...


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## Dec66 (22 Jan 2016)

rugby bloke said:


> Thanks for all the feedback guys. No excuses then, loose the lard, improve the core and getting climbing. Nothing that can be done about the short, sprinters legs though !


I think you can sum it up even more concisely than that... Ride more, especially up hills. 

You'll never be a "grimpeur", and it'll always hurt... But eventually you'll get up them a bit quicker and not be so wiped out at the top.


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## Shut Up Legs (22 Jan 2016)

Citius said:


> I'm not sure if you've thought that through properly...


That's a very unhelpful response. Would you care to elaborate?


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## Ajax Bay (22 Jan 2016)

Would you like to be the same weight but with shorter legs so you can ride a smaller sized and very slightly lighter bike? Consider. How much weight saving (bike + rider - %) is a smaller bike going to offer. Don't you value the longer levers and stronger legs you've got (to move your massive frame around)?


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## Citius (22 Jan 2016)

Shut Up Legs said:


> That's a very unhelpful response. Would you care to elaborate?



Certainly can. Smaller people are lighter and smaller bikes are lighter. Taller people are heavier and bigger bikes are heavier. None of that takes into account the relative power that either rider is capable of producing. If any of that were true, all of the world's top climbers would be midgets and celebrated 'tall' climbers like Indurain, Gert-Jan Theunisse or Robert Gesink would never have got a look in...


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## Shut Up Legs (22 Jan 2016)

Citius said:


> Certainly can. Smaller people are lighter and smaller bikes are lighter. Taller people are heavier and bigger bikes are heavier. None of that takes into account the relative power that either rider is capable of producing. If any of that were true, all of the world's top climbers would be midgets and celebrated climbers like Indurain, Gert-Jan Theunisse or Robert Gesink would never have got a look in...


Thank you, that makes more sense. Any idea what proportion of the best climbers are tall? I'm not arguing, just curious, because I always thought my height was a disadvantage for climbing.


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## Citius (22 Jan 2016)

Shut Up Legs said:


> Any idea what proportion of the best climbers are tall? I'm not arguing, just curious, because I always thought my height was a disadvantage for climbing.



No idea on the proportions. Height isn't a consideration though, but weight is - or more specifically, power to weight - usually expressed as watts per kilo, or w/kg.


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## Dogtrousers (22 Jan 2016)

Citius said:


> No idea on the proportions. Height isn't a consideration though, but weight is - or more specifically, power to weight - usually expressed as watts per kilo, or w/kg.


A 6'3" rider writes: Booo. Stop bursting my bubble. I liked the excuse that height was a disadvantage.


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## nickyboy (22 Jan 2016)

Citius said:


> No idea on the proportions. Height isn't a consideration though, but weight is - or more specifically, power to weight - usually expressed as watts per kilo, or w/kg.



There is some general physiological advantage in being unusually short as a climber. The size of one's cardiovascular system (which broadly equates to power when the rider is fully trained) does not vary in proportion to one's height but overall weight does. Shorter riders have smaller cardio systems, as you would expect, but not proportionately smaller. Therefore the power/weight equation naturally favours the shorter rider


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## Dec66 (22 Jan 2016)

nickyboy said:


> There is some general physiological advantage in being unusually short as a climber. The size of one's cardiovascular system (which broadly equates to power when the rider is fully trained) does not vary in proportion to one's height but overall weight does. Shorter riders have smaller cardio systems, as you would expect, but not proportionately smaller. Therefore the power/weight equation naturally favours the shorter rider


Unless the short rider weighs 15 stone?

Sooooo many variables...


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## martint235 (22 Jan 2016)

Dec66 said:


> You'll never be a "grimpeur", and it'll always hurt... But eventually you'll get up them a bit quicker and not be so wiped out at the top.





Dogtrousers said:


> A 6'3" rider writes: Booo. Stop bursting my bubble. I liked the excuse that height was a disadvantage.


I'm 6'6" and close to 17 stone but I'd like to think I'm not too shabby at going up hill. I'd say I'm a lot better at it than I am at sprinting and a million times better at it than I am at going downhill.


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## Sbudge (22 Jan 2016)

martint235 said:


> I'm 6'6" and close to 17 stone but I'd like to think I'm not too shabby at going up hill. I'd say I'm a lot better at it than I am at sprinting and a million times better at it than I am at going downhill.



I'm strictly average height & weight but I'm hopeless riding uphill (though I love running up them bizarrely), OK sprinting and pretty reasonable downhill. I suspect the downhill bit is more bike than me though.


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## Dogtrousers (22 Jan 2016)

In the interests of stupidity:

Tall bloke. Rubbish climber:






Short bloke. Grimpeur par excellence


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## Dec66 (22 Jan 2016)

martint235 said:


> I'm 6'6" and close to 17 stone but I'd like to think I'm not too shabby at going up hill. I'd say I'm a lot better at it than I am at sprinting and a million times better at it than I am at going downhill.


I'm guessing someone who's 6' 6" and 13 stone would get up quicker than you, though, if we assume you have the same VO2 max, THHR, watts/kg, etc?

Merely based on your muscle density, the fuel it would burn, and thus the lactic build up you would encounter in comparison to our straw man?

I'm not the worst climber in the world by any means (and, like you, I'm better on the way up than the way down), but I'm more of a "puncheur" than a "grimpeur" and would expect to concede ground to someone physically similar to myself who weighs a stone less.


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## Dec66 (22 Jan 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> In the interests of stupidity:
> 
> Tall bloke. Rubbish climber:
> 
> ...


Both favouring "race fit", though


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## Ajax Bay (22 Jan 2016)

nickyboy said:


> The size of one's cardiovascular system (which broadly equates to power when the rider is fully trained) does not vary in proportion to one's height but overall weight does.



Rewriting what you said @nickyboy : "cardiovascular system broadly equates to power when the rider is fully trained"
Think more work is required on this. Don't think you can use 'equates' not even moderated by 'broadly'. Probably OK if when you say 'power' maybe you mean power at FPT. Many other elements to power production. And as we've heard from @blazed on a different thread (or is it this one, I've lost track) his power is best in small doses - a rider with quality CV and 'fully trained' would be able to maintain albeit lower levels of power for longer. 



Dec66 said:


> Sooooo many variables...


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## nickyboy (22 Jan 2016)

Ajax Bay said:


> Rewriting what you said @nickyboy : "cardiovascular system broadly equates to power when the rider is fully trained"
> Think more work is required on this. Don't think you can use 'equates' not even moderated by 'broadly'. Probably OK if when you say 'power' maybe you mean power at FPT. Many other elements to power production. And as we've heard from @blazed on a different thread (or is it this one, I've lost track) his power is best in small doses - a rider with quality CV and 'fully trained' would be able to maintain albeit lower levels of power for longer.



I'm taking as many variable out of this so we can concentrate on what we're talking about. I would say that a 5' cyclist will be an inherently faster climber than a 6' climber. Assuming same physique, same training, same natural ability etc etc. Reasoning is that the CV system of the 5' guy is not 5/6 the capacity of the 6' guy but his weight is.

Of course there are outliers. But it surely can't be a coincidence that a lot of the elite climbers are short guys can it?


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## Dec66 (22 Jan 2016)

nickyboy said:


> I'm taking as many variable out of this so we can concentrate on what we're talking about. I would say that a 5' cyclist will be an inherently faster climber than a 6' climber. Assuming same physique, same training, same natural ability etc etc. Reasoning is that the CV system of the 5' guy is not 5/6 the capacity of the 6' guy but his weight is.
> 
> Of course there are outliers. But it surely can't be a coincidence that a lot of the elite climbers are short guys can it?


I don't know, what would be the effect of the CV system compared to the extra torque generated by the proportionately longer levers?

Sooooo many variables 

Just to throw this in the mix: Federico Bahamontes was about 6', tall for his era, and not a bad climber.


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## Citius (22 Jan 2016)

nickyboy said:


> But it surely can't be a coincidence that a lot of the elite climbers are short guys can it?



Not even sure if that's true. Pantani was short, and so were the Columbians, but the majority of TdF KoM winners (or alternatively, GC contenders) tend to be of average height, or above average height in some cases.


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## martint235 (22 Jan 2016)

Dec66 said:


> I'm guessing someone who's 6' 6" and 13 stone would get up quicker than you, though, if we assume you have the same VO2 max, THHR, watts/kg, etc?
> 
> Merely based on your muscle density, the fuel it would burn, and thus the lactic build up you would encounter in comparison to our straw man?
> 
> I'm not the worst climber in the world by any means (and, like you, I'm better on the way up than the way down), but I'm more of a "puncheur" than a "grimpeur" and would expect to concede ground to someone physically similar to myself who weighs a stone less.


I don't know enough about it. I've never been in a proper race and just go on what I see on group rides. The people who are quicker than me uphills are the ones who don't look like they should be able to climb at all while I pass all the whippet like riders comfortably.


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## Ajax Bay (22 Jan 2016)

nickyboy said:


> concentrate on what we're talking about.


If you look I stayed away from the 'short people are better climbers' argument; I considered the relationship between CV and power.


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## Dec66 (22 Jan 2016)

martint235 said:


> I don't know enough about it. I've never been in a proper race and just go on what I see on group rides. The people who are quicker than me uphills are the ones who don't look like they should be able to climb at all while I pass all the whippet like riders comfortably.


I have a lovely pic from the London 100 in 2015 of me pulling away from "the Peloton" on Box Hill. It's fair to say that most of the riders I'm pulling away from are not of the build that one would associate with rapid ascent.

However, on the same ride, I do recall hauling up Leith Hill and passing some sticks on bikes, whom I thought would leave me floundering (especially at my age).

I think, due to the interminable number of variables, we can only generalise and say that, just as in boxing "a good big 'un will always beat a good little 'un", a skinny fella is more than likely to beat a more meaty sort when the road points up sharply.


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## rugby bloke (22 Jan 2016)

Dec66 said:


> I have a lovely pic from the London 100 in 2015 of me pulling away from "the Peloton" on Box Hill. It's fair to say that most of the riders I'm pulling away from are not of the build that one would associate with rapid ascent.
> .



Case in point - here I am riding pretty comfortably up Box Hill, if only I could ascend some of my local hills as easily. I'm starting to think its as much in my head.

At the risk of merging threads, I apologize for the woeful lack of hardware strapped to my handle bars ...


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## Citius (22 Jan 2016)

Not looking much like a typical 'rugby bloke' there, if I'm honest. The guys on the right in both pics are though...


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## Dec66 (22 Jan 2016)

rugby bloke said:


> Case in point - here I am riding pretty comfortably up Box Hill, if only I could ascend some of my local hills as easily. I'm starting to think its as much in my head.
> 
> At the risk of merging threads, I apologize for the woeful lack of hardware strapped to my handle bars ...
> 
> ...


You show me yours, I'll show you mine...


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## rugby bloke (22 Jan 2016)

Citius said:


> Not looking much like a typical 'rugby bloke' there, if I'm honest. The guys on the right in both pics are though...


I'm more of a piano player than a piano shifter on the pitch. Have always left the pushing and showing to the fat boys !


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## martint235 (22 Jan 2016)

Not sure if it's mentioned elsewhere. Always do hills at your own pace. A lot of people feel guilty or think it's showing off to pass people but I'm a grinder and I just can't drop my speed /cadence to match some of the spinners.


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## Dec66 (22 Jan 2016)

martint235 said:


> Not sure if it's mentioned elsewhere. Always do hills at your own pace. A lot of people feel guilty or think it's showing off to pass people but I'm a grinder and I just can't drop my speed /cadence to match some of the spinners.


Amen to that.

Not long ago I spun up Star Hill on my middle ring (39x25), easily passing someone grinding up on the way, about halfway up the climb as it bends to the right.

Just by the very top, where it levels out, he flew past me. 

In fairness, I'd slackened off a bit because my matey was struggling up... And there's another conundrum, which perhaps I'll stick in a separate thread.


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## blazed (22 Jan 2016)

Here I am climbing Winnats Pass, toughest climb in the peak district. That section is 10%+ just before it ramped up, which is when I put the power down and left that car for dead.
Did it numerous times that weekend and easily fastest rider of the day on strava both days.
Past many twiglets, most of them weighed less than my upper body but all struggling. Sheer power wins on short climbs, even on winnats which has a long section of 20%, if you can push the watts, you take the daily KOM.


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## Bollo (22 Jan 2016)

blazed said:


> Here I am climbing Winnats Pass, toughest climb in the peak district. That section is 10%+ just before it ramped up, which is when I put the power down and left that car for dead.
> Did it numerous times that weekend and easily fastest rider of the day on strava both days.
> Past many twiglets, most of them weighed less than my upper body but all struggling. Sheer power wins on short climbs, even on winnats which has a long section of 20%, if you can push the watts, you take the daily KOM.


Wow, that's really impressive, b man! I can't wait for you to link your strava segments so we can try to learn from the best.


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## blazed (22 Jan 2016)

Bollo said:


> Wow, that's really impressive, b man! I can't wait for you to link your strava segments so we can try to learn from the best.


I'm looking into starting an online coaching program like Carmichael's.


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## Dec66 (22 Jan 2016)

It wouldn't be a show without Punch...


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## Bollo (22 Jan 2016)

blazed said:


> I'm looking into starting an online coaching program like Carmichael's.


I'm looking into marrying Mila Kunis. Let me know how you get on.


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## Citius (22 Jan 2016)

blazed said:


> Here I am climbing Winnats Pass, toughest climb in the peak district. That section is 10%+ just before it ramped up, which is when I put the power down and left that car for dead.
> Did it numerous times that weekend and easily fastest rider of the day on strava both days.
> Past many twiglets, most of them weighed less than my upper body but all struggling. Sheer power wins on short climbs, even on winnats which has a long section of 20%, if you can push the watts, you take the daily KOM.


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## blazed (22 Jan 2016)

For those wondering best how to fuel. I've tried and tested everything, and have created the absolute optimal balance of in ride nutrition.

I've got a hilly 100-120 mile ride in the chilterns tomorrow, this is what I'll consume.


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## Dec66 (22 Jan 2016)

blazed said:


> For those wondering best how to fuel. I've tried and tested everything, and have created the absolute optimal balance of in ride nutrition.
> 
> I've got a hilly 100-120 mile ride in the chilterns tomorrow, this is what I'll consume.


Well, your dentist will be busy, if nothing else.


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## 400bhp (22 Jan 2016)

Bollo said:


> Wow, that's really impressive, b man! I can't wait for you to link your strava segments so we can try to learn from the best.



I'm waiting with anticipation too.


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## rugby bloke (23 Jan 2016)

Inspired by a little winter sun and your encouragement I dusted down the bike and went out for the first ride of 2016. A nice short course with 3 sharp climbs, trying different approaches the one that worked best was small front cog, middle back cog and then out of the saddle attack. Relying quite heavily on leg strength but maybe using a bit of rugby season conditioning is the answer.


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