# Choosing a Rohloff Hub Bike?



## MacB (30 Jan 2009)

Been looking at this and am very tempted and am trying to narrow down my selection. Would be used for my 40 mile commute, all road, poodling around with kids(towpath at worst), maybe the odd lengthier ride/short Audax, and general dogsbody. No current plans to do any full touring and pretty unlikely for forseeable future. So far I've looked in detail at 5 bikes, Thorn, Cannondale, Koga, Fahrrad and Amazon-

Cannondale - seems a bit more bling than I need and not keen on disc brakes, also doesn't look like it'll take racks etc.

Koga/Amazon - the prices get really steep and I haven't found much in the way of reviews.

Thorn - most accessible for information and was looking at the Raven Tour or Sport Tour. But price does climb steeply once you start adding all the bits on. Reviews are good though and would be tempted over the others. Comes with 26inch wheels.

Fahrrad T900 - pricewise, at £1675, this is the most affordable and this price includes many things charged as extras on others. Rack, guards, hub dynamo lights etc. But I can't find any reviews on it other than the usual blurb 'German make, reliable, last years etc'. It comes with 700c wheels.

As I'm not intending it for heavy loads/touring should I look at others, maybe frame only and get it built up? But the price of the Rohloff itself makes the T900 seem a very good deal.


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## srw (30 Jan 2009)

MacBludgeon said:


> Been looking at this and am very tempted and am trying to narrow down my selection. Would be used for my 40 mile commute, all road, poodling around with kids(towpath at worst), maybe the odd lengthier ride/short Audax, and general dogsbody. No current plans to do any full touring and pretty unlikely for forseeable future. So far I've looked in detail at 5 bikes, Thorn, Cannondale, Koga, Fahrrad and Amazon-



I'd certainly recommend a Rohloff - it's a robust system, simple to use and almost maintenance-free. It's not going to be the zippiest bike in the world, which may make a difference on your long commute.

When you're looking at price, make sure you've got the current price, especially if the dealer has to import specially from Euroland. If you're lucky you'll find a dealer who bought last summer when the pound was strong and wants to offload stock. But anyone who has to import (gear or bike) now will have to pay current Euro prices.


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## MacB (30 Jan 2009)

srw said:


> I'd certainly recommend a Rohloff - it's a robust system, simple to use and almost maintenance-free. It's not going to be the zippiest bike in the world, which may make a difference on your long commute.
> 
> When you're looking at price, make sure you've got the current price, especially if the dealer has to import specially from Euroland. If you're lucky you'll find a dealer who bought last summer when the pound was strong and wants to offload stock. But anyone who has to import (gear or bike) now will have to pay current Euro prices.



excellent point, have just checked and the T900 has miraculously increased by £325 Have also spoken to my bike mechanic and he does do Rohloff and it could be fitted to my current bike. So cost of hub, the EX version of the CC, the black anodised finish, chain tensioner, new wheel build, new chain ring. Probably somewhere between £1200-1300, could offset this slightly by selling off the spare bits it creates, so £1k to me. I reckon I could shift about £600 of golf stuff, make the kids get paper rounds, suggest an evening job to the wife.........yeah it's doable


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## tyred (30 Jan 2009)

I would love to try one of these but totally out of my price range, unfortunately.

Oh well, I suppose three gears are enough...


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## Cranky (30 Jan 2009)

MacBludgeon said:


> Been looking at this and am very tempted and am trying to narrow down my selection. Would be used for my 40 mile commute, all road, poodling around with kids(towpath at worst), maybe the odd lengthier ride/short Audax, and general dogsbody. No current plans to do any full touring and pretty unlikely for forseeable future. So far I've looked in detail at 5 bikes, Thorn, Cannondale, Koga, Fahrrad and Amazon-
> 
> Cannondale - seems a bit more bling than I need and not keen on disc brakes, also doesn't look like it'll take racks etc.
> 
> ...



I've been looking at all this myself, too. On other option you may want to look at is an off-the-peg frame from Bob Jackson. It's a touring frame with the option of dropouts for Rohloff.


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## MacB (30 Jan 2009)

Cranky said:


> I've been looking at all this myself, too. On other option you may want to look at is an off-the-peg frame from Bob Jackson. It's a touring frame with the option of dropouts for Rohloff.



Yep, had a look and they are very nice but think I'm going to go with adding it to my current bike. Knowing me I'll need to get a new front wheel made up to match, so I'm already building up a collection of spares In fact if I do this I'll only be a frame and fork away from a second bike


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## Arch (30 Jan 2009)

I hope you'll get a dynahub in the front, for ultimate commuting bomb-proofness....


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## MacB (30 Jan 2009)

Arch said:


> I hope you'll get a dynahub in the front, for ultimate commuting bomb-proofness....



Oh yeah, that's it, any more ideas, get the cost up a bit higher, you gonna offer to feed my kids??? Crawls away to look at dyno hubs


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## Bollo (30 Jan 2009)

I've got a Thorn Sports Tour and a very good long distance commuter it is. Not pretty, but extremely practical, very carefully put together and the 853 tubing is a touch of class. You're right about the options which have a BMW-like way of bumping the price.

The Rohloff does add a bit of weight and feels slightly less efficient than a derailleur equiped bike, but it is ultra-low maintenance and very reliable.

MacB - if you can get yourself to either Basingstoke (weekdays only) or Winchester and you're 5'9" to 6'1" ish then you're welcome to have a test ride of mine. PM if you're interested.


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## J4CKO (30 Jan 2009)

I have the Cannondale Bad Boy 700 and did fit a rack with a bit of bracket ingenuity !

Not the Rohlhoff but I love the concept of them.


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## MacB (30 Jan 2009)

Very generous offer Bollo, I may take you up on that, I'm in Farnborough, but I think I'm pretty well committed anyway. I could get away with just the new rear wheel built around the Rohloff. But I reckon I'd be unhappy with just removing chainrings, and adding spacers, at the front. So I'm going to go the new cranks/chainset.


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## Hugo15 (30 Jan 2009)

My mate has a custom fit Bob Jackson with a Rohlhoff. It looks very nice and he reallt likes it, but set up in touring spec it is a couple of mph slower than his winter hack. Not cheap either, north or £2k IIRC.


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## MacB (30 Jan 2009)

Hugo15 said:


> My mate has a custom fit Bob Jackson with a Rohlhoff. It looks very nice and he reallt likes it, but set up in touring spec it is a couple of mph slower than his winter hack. Not cheap either, north or £2k IIRC.



Slow can be relative, I'm still striving to reach my first goal of a 12mph average, my final goal(until the goalposts move) is 16.5mph over a 20 mile run. The Giant, even with Rohloff hub, should be easily capable of that. To someone of my limited prowess, and large girth, the Rohloff 'drag' effect, and extra weight, should be immaterial. If I lose the 63lbs I want to, then I may start to fret over the extra 1lb of the hub

At the end of the day, if I really don't like it, I'll still have the original wheel, gears and shifters that can be refitted. From what I can see I wouldn't have any trouble selling on a wheel built around a Rohloff hub


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## Bollo (31 Jan 2009)

MacBludgeon said:


> Very generous offer Bollo, I may take you up on that, I'm in Farnborough, but I think I'm pretty well committed anyway. I could get away with just the new rear wheel built around the Rohloff. But I reckon I'd be unhappy with just removing chainrings, and adding spacers, at the front. So I'm going to go the new cranks/chainset.



Offer's open any time.

Bear in mind that Rohloff's do genuinely 'run-in', especially in gears 1-7, so don't despair if it feels like you're pedalling a coffee-grinder for the first few hundred miles. Also, how are you intending to tension the chain?


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## just jim (31 Jan 2009)

Are Rohloff's really worth that kind of wedge? Spend the money on a decent frame and robust, quality kit instead.


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## MacB (31 Jan 2009)

Bollo said:


> Offer's open any time.
> 
> Bear in mind that Rohloff's do genuinely 'run-in', especially in gears 1-7, so don't despair if it feels like you're pedalling a coffee-grinder for the first few hundred miles. Also, how are you intending to tension the chain?



Ta, chain tensioning is a bummer, at present it looks like my frame wouldn't take an eccentric BB so would need some form of chain tensioner fitted. Unless of course there is a widget to convert the vertical dropouts to horizontal(barring an angle grinder and superglue). I've looked at a couple of quotes that are both similar to this:-

Rohloff Speed Hub 500/14 in Black for QR and External click box = £950.00 (This comes complete with sprocket, grip shifter and cables.)
DT Swiss TK 7.1 rim (Silver or black?) = £65.00
Spokes and build = £35.00
Shimano XT BB and chainset = £195.00
KMC Z510 chain = £6.00 
Labour = £50.00 
Grand Total inc TNT pick up and VAT @ current rates = £1321.00

Not sure on this as I've seen the http://www.wheelspincycles.com/products.php?plid=m2b0s117p1812 Rohloff on here at £700, can't see where the £250 difference comes, maybe around fx rates and whether stock is held or has to be ordered in. Also think it's a lot for a new BB and chainset, quite happy with current BB/chainset. Maybe just need to adjust it as the one quoted above is a triple adjusted down to leave the 48T only, might as well do the same with what I already have. Only concern is whether the Wheelspincycles one is an older model or something, but doesn't appear to be. I'm tempted to just order the hub from them and then get my friendly mechanical expert to sort the rest. 

Jim, thanks for your input


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## Bollo (31 Jan 2009)

just jim said:


> Are Rohloff's really worth that kind of wedge? Spend the money on a decent frame and robust, quality kit instead.



Very valid question. They're a pretty specialised bit of kit and I think the likes of Thorn oversell the advantages but, for MacB's 40 miles day-in, day out I'd say go for it. Try that with a derailleur and there's a big cleaning and maintenance overhead, especially if he's on cow-crap surfaced rural back roads.


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## Bollo (31 Jan 2009)

MacBludgeon said:


> Ta, chain tensioning is a bummer, at present it looks like my frame wouldn't take an eccentric BB so would need some form of chain tensioner fitted.



Have a look at these of the rohloff site. Its starting to get into Sports Tour territory!


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## Cranky (31 Jan 2009)

just jim said:


> Are Rohloff's really worth that kind of wedge? Spend the money on a decent frame and robust, quality kit instead.



I was convinced that a Rohloff was the way forward for my new touring bike but came to the conclusion that the considerable cost couldn't be justified in my case. And now it appears that the true cost of the Rohloff system is as much as a fairly decent bike!


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## simoncc (31 Jan 2009)

I can't see the advantage of Rohloffs. 

For an everyday bike 7 or 8 speed Shimano stuff is quite cheap, long lasting and of quite good quality. For my hobby bikes like my best tourer, my MTB and my road bike I wouldn't dream of using a hub gear when the 9 speed Shimano stuff is so good. 

Rohloffs are a solution in search of a problem.


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## MacB (31 Jan 2009)

simoncc said:


> I can't see the advantage of Rohloffs.
> 
> For an everyday bike 7 or 8 speed Shimano stuff is quite cheap, long lasting and of quite good quality. For my hobby bikes like my best tourer, my MTB and my road bike I wouldn't dream of using a hub gear when the 9 speed Shimano stuff is so good.
> 
> Rohloffs are a solution in search of a problem.



Thread title 'Choosing a Rohloff Hub Bike' and you jump on to let me know you wouldn't dream of using a hub gear. Could you be more specific about your reasons for being negative and supply your sources? Whilst the cost is a general complaint it does seem to be upfront costs are the issue. The consensus appears to be that it can/will result in either a saving, or break even, versus the costs around a derailer system over the same span. If you then factor in the lack of maintenance, or system failures, it becomes far more appealing to me. Remember that I'm looking at a setup that's going to cope with up to 200 commuting miles a week, in all conditions. Already done the wider, puncture resistant tyres, the rack/panniers, the butterfly bars and the more relaxed riding position. As I'm a long way from being physically able to achieve the commute on fixed or SS then hub gears seemed like a natural progression. The Rohloff variety may be overkill but, even if only for peace of mind, it's my money.

If I achieve my goals around the commute then I can start looking at more social riding. At that point I may well want a different kind of ride, in which case I'll buy another bike. What that bike is, and how it's equipped, will be a decision for then, but it may even have another Rohloff, again my dosh and I can afford it

Bollo/Cranky, sorry I know I shouldn't bite but sometimes the internet urge is too strong Cranky, I know what you mean on the costs and it did cause me a little intake of breath. But, since starting back on bikes in Nov08, I've had so many intakes of breath re costs it's almost becoming old hat now I started with a budget of £500 for the lot, bike, kit, lights etc. That's been revised upwards so many times it's only the pedant in me that carries on keeping tally. I've nearly reached 2K and the, in for a penny in for a pound, attitude has started to prevail

Bollo, thanks for the link that's the method my mechanic has indicated, I was just hopeful of somehow avoiding extra little wheels and stuff. Or maybe I just need to run with a really slack chain I'll keep you posted on developments but order for the new hub and wheel will go in on Monday


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## Arch (1 Feb 2009)

MacBludgeon said:


> Thread title 'Choosing a Rohloff Hub Bike' and you jump on to let me know you wouldn't dream of using a hub gear. Could you be more specific about your reasons for being negative and supply your sources?



I expect he thinks Rohloffs are all bought by affluent eco-hysterics with double barrelled names, who read the Guardian.

Re Dynahubs, just think of the saving in batteries...


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## MacB (1 Feb 2009)

Arch said:


> I expect he thinks Rohloffs are all bought by affluent eco-hysterics with double barrelled names, who read the Guardian.
> 
> Re Dynahubs, just think of the saving in batteries...



At least Simon comes straight at you whereas you, Arch, subtlely push me towards financial meltdown with sensible advice, far more dangerous Have looked at the dynohubs and think I see a new front wheel as well now

By the way has anyone had any experience of this:-

http://www.ukbikestore.co.uk/Product/0/bbtfexc/trickstuffexcentrikerbottombracket.html

an eccentric BB that will fit to a standard size frames. I like the idea but £107.65 seems a heck of a lot for what it is. Can't find much in the way of reviews on it, seems it was carried by SJS cycles but they've now discontinued it. Makes no difference to the new rear wheel makeup with Rohloff, just curious.


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## Cranky (1 Feb 2009)

MacBludgeon said:


> Bollo/Cranky, sorry I know I shouldn't bite but sometimes the internet urge is too strong Cranky, I know what you mean on the costs and it did cause me a little intake of breath. But, since starting back on bikes in Nov08, I've had so many intakes of breath re costs it's almost becoming old hat now I started with a budget of £500 for the lot, bike, kit, lights etc. That's been revised upwards so many times it's only the pedant in me that carries on keeping tally. I've nearly reached 2K and the, in for a penny in for a pound, attitude has started to prevail



No problem MacB. I know what you mean and with your weekly mileage it's probably justifiable. I'd still go for the Rohloff myself if money was no object but personally I think I'd get a new bike rather than retrofit. In particular it would seem a pity to have to include a chain tensioner.


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## MacB (2 Feb 2009)

I have a quote from Wheelspincycles.com, based in Huddersfield for £990 all in. That's the new wheel, mavic rims with double butted spokes, complete with tyre and all the bits to get it setup and working. Seems pretty reasonable and their website looks quite good but I can't find any reviews on them

http://www.wheelspincycles.com/index.php

So does anyone have any experience of them?

What's near Huddersfield that my wife may enjoy a romantic overnight stay at? Coincidentally we'd go in her people carrier and take the bike for them to fit new wheel to and then collect on way home next day


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## Bollo (2 Feb 2009)

I would advise leaving your wife at home and spending the money you save on a Brookes saddle.



Keep us posted on the progress. I'm with Crank in that I'd have gone for a new bike rather than a retrofit, but some of the fun is trying these things out. Have you checked out Sheldon Brown's (genuflects) Rohloff stuff? He was a big fan and had some interesting stuff about them on his site.


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## MacB (2 Feb 2009)

yep read all the Rohloff stuff on Sheldon Brown, plus many other articles on there I know what you mean re the retrofit but I couldn't get below about 2K for a new bike fully kitted out. I figured that if I don't like the Rohloff then I can convert back my bike and sell on new wheel and bits quite easily. If I do like it(which I suspect I will) but find that the frame isn't right, then I can order a custome frame and build that up. This may all be a false economy as, knowing me, I'll end up buying another bike anyway. But it just seems a little less painful doing it in stages

After further thought I may show the quote to my local guy and see if he wants to price match. He can go a bit higher as I'll be saving on the expense of travelling to Huddersfield and it also means that any issues are resolved locally.

Regardless we'll need to meet up for a ride, and to compare Rohloffs, once the better weather arrives.


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## Arch (3 Feb 2009)

MacBludgeon said:


> What's near Huddersfield that my wife may enjoy a romantic overnight stay at? Coincidentally we'd go in her people carrier and take the bike for them to fit new wheel to and then collect on way home next day



'Near' is relative, but if you are coming all the way from Farnborough, you are virtually in Bronte country (Haworth), or Last of the Summer Wine country (Holmfirth), and not so far from the south end of the Yorkshire Dales or the north end of the Peak District.

Or 50 miles (about an hour) away from York.


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## twowheelsgood (3 Feb 2009)

Hugo15 said:


> My mate has a custom fit Bob Jackson with a Rohlhoff. It looks very nice and he reallt likes it, but set up in touring spec it is a couple of mph slower than his winter hack. Not cheap either, north or £2k IIRC.



Hmm, I'd love a Rohloff but 2mph is pretty much the difference between my average speeds on my hybrid (albeit a fast-ish one) and my road bike (albeit and entry level machine). Is it really that much? Also my hybrid has had the same drive-train for a decade and about 12,000km. I think I adjusted the gear cables about twice and replaced the chain every 2000km - is the maintenance thing that big a deal?

There was a craze for Rohloff equipped mountain bikes here a year or so back and a work colleague had one (briefly before it was stolen).

I'm also not too taken on the changing mechanism. I would have thought that something more elegant could have been made given the engineering prowess. Mind you that's engineers for you, perfect the technical gubbins and then worry about the user interface as an afterthought!


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## MacB (3 Feb 2009)

Good questions, the differences in average speed, therefore the drag/efficiency of the Rohloff seem to be quite widely debated. There is also the bedding in period which the manufacturer rates at 1000km but I've seen variation on that. Once bedded in I would be surprised if, all else being equal, it made as much as 2mph different between 2 bikes. If you calculated based on manufacturers efficiency tables then the difference should be no more than 0.5mph and, with improved gear changes, maybe even a positive impact. But that's all number crunching on paper I'll not really know until I try it.

My other option is getting a Thorn Raven Tour for my commute and the Cannondale Badboy Rohloff for better weather/lighter stuff. Ah, choices, tis a wonderful thing


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## womblechops (3 Feb 2009)

On a positive note I got my Fahrrad (a cheaper spec CX700) last August and am very happy with it. As you note the Fahrrad bikes are pretty well specced in the price - I've got the guards, hub dynamo, lights, hydraulic discs - all of which comes with a few comments at traffic lights about having gone a bit mad in the sweet shop.

But the gears are the Shimano Alfine set, which are performing well so far on 100+ miles commuting a week, but whilst I am happy with them I will always have that nagging feeling that for all the spec above I could have gone for Rohloff too, but saw the additional price tag at the last moment and baulked.

So, please keep your inner pedant in check (they never talk sense!), buy the Rohloff and tell us how much you enjoy it later.


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## chris667 (3 Feb 2009)

Just to add a bit of confusion to the mix, I'm considering my options for my next heavyweight touring bike, and I'm swaying towards the Sram I-motion 9.


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## mickle (3 Feb 2009)

The only good internal geared hub is the _Red Band_ Bendix 2 spd Kickback coaster.

But more seriously, HOW FRICKIN MUCH?? Please show me the proof that a Rolloff hub works out cheaper than an eight speed derailer system over _any_ timescale. Coz I don't believe it.


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## MacB (4 Feb 2009)

mickle said:


> The only good internal geared hub is the _Red Band_ Bendix 2 spd Kickback coaster.
> 
> But more seriously, HOW FRICKIN MUCH?? Please show me the proof that a Rolloff hub works out cheaper than an eight speed derailer system over _any_ timescale. Coz I don't believe it.



I think any savings, if they exist, would be over the very long haul. My main motivation is ease of maintenance and gear changing. But then I like gadgets, when I play golf I have a remote control Robokaddy and a GPS unit. Neither are needed and both are expensive but, for me, they both remove minor irritations and inconveniences. I want a minimum fuss bike that'll do the job so I'm going for a rohloff. What I regard as fuss others may regard as no hassle or part of being a proper cyclist. Some golfers regard anyone not carrying their own clubs, and pacing out their own yardages, as not really proper golfers. I haven't cared about the prejudices of other golfers for a number of years and doubt if I'll care any more in regard to cycling If they did a rohloff with 'automatic' transmission I'd probably buy that

Looks like I've swung back to the Thorn Sports Tour again and should work out about £2300 with upgrades including the Schmidt dyno hub Going to take Bollo up on his generous offer to pop down and inspect his bike then book my appointment at Thorn.


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## Keith Oates (4 Feb 2009)

"Looks like I've swung back to the Thorn Sports Tour again "

IMO that is a good move!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## MacB (4 Feb 2009)

Keith Oates said:


> "Looks like I've swung back to the Thorn Sports Tour again "
> 
> IMO that is a good move!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Thanks Keith, spent a lot of time reading reviews, opinions etc. I actually always liked the bikes look but had concerns re 26" wheels. I've allayed those now and the benefits of a specifically designed bike seem worth the 1k extra over the conversion costs.


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## MacB (6 Feb 2009)

Another change, plans for the RST will still go ahead but will need to defer expenditure until the Summer. So in the short term have settled on an sram i-motion 9. This should give me plenty of range for the commute and, if it doesn't work out, I can just put the old wheel and derailer setup back on the bike. Having the hub built into a new wheel(placed order today) and, with shifter, comes to £367. I'll then have to add cost for fitting and chain tensioner, I'll put a new chain on and leave the old chain with the existing wheel in case a retrofit is needed. Hope to use the middle ring from existing chainset and just add spacers to get chainline. Comparison of gear range between the existing, adjusted for unadvisable chainlines and close/duplicate ratios, and a couple of cog options on the i-9:-
Giant Triple 30/42/52​​SRAM I-motion9 42/21​​SRAM I-motion9 42/22​​29.5​​28.1​​31.4​​32.2​​35.4​​33.7​​38.8​​39.5​​37.7​​43.9​​44.2​​49.6​​46.4​​51.9​​54.3​​54.3​​60.1​​60.8​​67.3​​63.7​​74.4​​74.7​​71.3​​81.5​​83.6​​87.8​​87.5​​95.1​​95.6​​100.9​​100.2​​108.7​​117.7​​​


The i-9 doesn't go as low as the Rohloff, limited to about 25inches but I reckon 29.5 as a low should be ok. I can always alter this if I want but I based this on the existing low of 31.4 and how often/much I needed that. I won't be touring and my longer rides, if they happen, will be under lighter load than my commute. Probably large saddle bag/racktop bag at most rather than panniers.

Any info on the above, recommendations etc warmly welcome....thanks.....Al


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## ufkacbln (6 Feb 2009)

Bollo said:


> I've got a Thorn Sports Tour and a very good long distance commuter it is. Not pretty, but extremely practical, very carefully put together and the 853 tubing is a touch of class. You're right about the options which have a BMW-like way of bumping the price.
> 
> The Rohloff does add a bit of weight and feels slightly less efficient than a derailleur equiped bike, but it is ultra-low maintenance and very reliable.
> 
> MacB - if you can get yourself to either Basingstoke (weekdays only) or Winchester and you're 5'9" to 6'1" ish then you're welcome to have a test ride of mine. PM if you're interested.



I have a Thorn Nomad and it is boring!

In a good way.... its predictability, solid handling and the way it just performs loaded or unloaded is brilliant and exactly what I wanted - it simply lacks the edge of some of my sportier bikes.


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## srw (7 Feb 2009)

mickle said:


> But more seriously, HOW FRICKIN MUCH?? Please show me the proof that a Rolloff hub works out cheaper than an eight speed derailer system over _any_ timescale. Coz I don't believe it.



A cheap derailleur system plus rear hub costs about £150. Add the cost of fitting and you're up to £200. The Rohloff costs about £1000. That's only 5 times as much, and it will last 10 times as long - at least - with negligible maintenance. A Shimano Dura Ace groupset, often recommended here, costs about £600. It's easy to spend £1000 on a derailleur groupset.


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## Arch (7 Feb 2009)

srw said:


> A cheap derailleur system plus rear hub costs about £150. Add the cost of fitting and you're up to £200. The Rohloff costs about £1000. That's only 5 times as much, and it will last 10 times as long - at least - with negligible maintenance. *A Shimano Dura Ace groupset, often recommended here, costs about £600.* It's easy to spend £1000 on a derailleur groupset.



And here's the question: Why? £600 for a few metal parts. Cost of materials can't be anywhere near that, and it's all machine made. Is it all posing value or what?

(I think hub gears are probably also way more expensive than they need to be, BTW, I'm not just picking on derailleurs - also, I appreciate that a certain amount of R and D is needed, but how different is a fancy set to a basic set, really?)


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## MacB (7 Feb 2009)

Arch said:


> And here's the question: Why? £600 for a few metal parts. Cost of materials can't be anywhere near that, and it's all machine made. Is it all posing value or what?
> 
> (I think hub gears are probably also way more expensive than they need to be, BTW, I'm not just picking on derailleurs - also, I appreciate that a certain amount of R and D is needed, but how different is a fancy set to a basic set, really?)



Arch, though I'm not knowledgeable on cycling I figure this type of thing will be pretty similar to the golf industry. Higher end drivers go for about £300 and top end/pro stuff for about £600-800(there are the odd crazy prices above that). Best estimates of costs to the OEM are £10-30, the biggest factor in the final price is claimed to be the pro sponsorship and marketing. If cycling works in the same way then that would be the answer. Kind of makes you feel closer to the pros knowing that you're more directly supporting their high wages


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## Bollo (7 Feb 2009)

Cunobelin said:


> I have a Thorn Nomad and it is boring!
> 
> In a good way.... its predictability, solid handling and the way it just performs loaded or unloaded is brilliant and exactly what I wanted - it simply lacks the edge of some of my sportier bikes.



But to test ride yours he would have to go to Gosport! There's a line a man should not cross, and in this case the line is just north of Eastleigh 

PS - You doin' IoW Randonnee this year?


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## Bollo (7 Feb 2009)

Arch said:


> And here's the question: Why? £600 for a few metal parts. Cost of materials can't be anywhere near that, and it's all machine made. Is it all posing value or what?
> 
> (I think hub gears are probably also way more expensive than they need to be, BTW, I'm not just picking on derailleurs - also, I appreciate that a certain amount of R and D is needed, but how different is a fancy set to a basic set, really?)



I'm liking this post. I think the Rohloffs are expensive because they are a very complex mechanism, they're made in small volumes and, as they're German, you're paying for them in Euros. I paid significantly less a year ago for my Rohloffed Thorn Sports Tour than their current price.

What you get is a fabulous piece of engineering that should live longer than you. If you're doing the miles that MacB does, its an investment against at least weekly cleaning, constant adjustment, filthy cables and gummed up jockey wheels. You're also getting top reliability and support. For most applications they're over the top, but for what MacB wants to do, they're spot-on.

As for pose value, I admit I'm a shocking dandy and tart. The only reason I'm not clad head-to-foot in Rapha is that (a) none of it fits and ( they pay me a retainer never to be seen in their products (note to self - phone Assos). But I don't think of my Rohloff bikes as poser bikes as only the true brethren will even notice. They're just trouble free, fit-and-forget transport.


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## biking_fox (18 Feb 2009)

Ressurecting a thread.

I have been wondering about a hub gear as my next bike. What's the difference betwene the schimano versions that seem to be fairly readily available and a Rohloff - other than the price?!

Primairily I want to know if the are as reliable?

But any other technical/usability feedback would be good too - do they cover the sam e range, how smooth the action is etcetc.


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## mickle (18 Feb 2009)

(With the possible exception of the Rolloff) hub geared wheels are more fiddly to remove and replace than open systems and are less efficient.

If I'm going to get p******e I want to be able to get my wheel out, tube replaced and back in with a minimum of fuss and faff. Without the need for tools. 

It bugs me that the oft quoted negatives of derailer systems includes, and I quote; _'weekly cleaning, constant adjustment, filthy cables and gummed up jockey wheels' _ Not on any of my bikes thanks.


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## srw (18 Feb 2009)

No need for tools to remove the back wheel on my Sturmey-Archer 3-speed - just a couple of thingamabobs to unscrew by hand. The Rohloff is similar - just unscrew it by hand.


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## MacB (18 Feb 2009)

I'll be able to give you better feedback soon as am awaiting my SRAM hub geared wheel, what I've gleaned so far, I've only looked at top of range in each:-

Rohloff - wins every comparison test hands down, widest range of gears, changes under load, reliability is amazing, easy wheel removal with some models. Negatives, breaking in period, gears run smoother after about 1k km, have read some that claim a noticeable drag effect after this, but many more that say that's tosh. Heavier, depending who you believe could add as much as 2lbs to bike. Gear spread can mean that you have some you never use at either end. Twist grip shifter that won't fit all bars.

Shimano Alfine? - smoothest operation of all of them according to reviews, not as good a range, or spread, of gears, 8 in total. Problems of reliability and seals from earlier models have been solved(according to Shim) but need more data and time to verify this. Pain in the butt to remove rear wheel, big negative in magazine review. Easier to source and, if need be maintain plus cheaper.

SRAM I-Motion 9 - this is what I've ordered, not so easy to get hold of and whole wheel build and fitting is going to be approx £400. Range of gears good, my chosen setup will run from 29.5 inches to 100.2 inches. Some concerns over size of gaps in upper gear ranges but will depend on type of cycling you do. Reviews I've read have been very positive re reliability, not as smooth a change as the Shim and some doubts of consistency under load. I only want it for commuting and social rides, I don't need top end race type gear. Rear wheel very easy to remove but servicing may be an issue. 

The useage your putting it to is key, if you're a serious racer, MTB or road, they may not be for you, though the Rohloff is rated for MTB racing. Looking at how many people commute with SS, Fixed or a 3-7 hub gear range, then there must be something in it. I want less fuss but then am doing a lot of miles in all conditions.

I'd read up on Sheldons pages(you can spend hours on gear calculations), the Velo ones, look at these and other forums, some stuff on YACF and CTC. 

I do still plan on my next bike being Rohloff specific but expect to pay in the region of £2-2.5k, couldn't quite justify that just yet....good luck.....Al


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## mickle (18 Feb 2009)

srw said:


> No need for tools to remove the back wheel on my Sturmey-Archer 3-speed - just a couple of thingamabobs to unscrew by hand. The Rohloff is similar - just unscrew it by hand.


Wingnuts?


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## MacB (18 Feb 2009)

mickle said:


> Wingnuts?



nope, disconnect gear cables, think it's a bayonet style fitting and then undo the quick release


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## Bollo (18 Feb 2009)

mickle said:


> It bugs me that the oft quoted negatives of derailer systems includes, and I quote; _'weekly cleaning, constant adjustment, filthy cables and gummed up jockey wheels' _ Not on any of my bikes thanks.



Oooh, you bitch! I didn't qualify it in that post, but it does depend on the type of roads you're on and the type of bike. I literally (and I mean literally literally) have to cycle through sh1t on my commute (50 miles round trip - but not every day unfortunately). Depending on the time of year, weather and the digestive system of the cows in the farms I pass, I can shag my deraillieur-equiped bikes to unrideability in about three days on this ride. Its an extreme example and my other bikes are road bikes and not MTBs.

I'm not doing down deraillieurs - even the rohloff doesn't come close to the smoothness, efficiency and sharp shifting of a decent deraillieur. Horses for courses, and if your course is surfaced in bovine excrement, I'd pop for a rohloff.


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## Bollo (18 Feb 2009)

biking_fox said:


> Ressurecting a thread.
> 
> I have been wondering about a hub gear as my next bike. What's the difference betwene the schimano versions that seem to be fairly readily available and a Rohloff - other than the price?!
> 
> ...



Can't speak for MacB's SRAM I-Motion, but I've ridden a few bikes with Shimano Nexus hubs and haven't been that impressed. In particular, they don't seem hugely robust for a hub gear - the CTC mag reported on a few issues a while back, and I've seen other stuff on the web. Also, a friend of mine has a nexus that is starting to feel a bit rattley after about a thousand miles. I think they're designed more for casual riding rather than longer distances. Don't know about the Alfine.


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## mickle (19 Feb 2009)

MacBludgeon said:


> nope, disconnect gear cables, think it's a bayonet style fitting and then undo the quick release



Sorry, I was referring to your new avatar.


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## mickle (19 Feb 2009)

Bollo said:


> Can't speak for MacB's SRAM I-Motion, but I've ridden a few bikes with Shimano Nexus hubs and haven't been that impressed. In particular, they don't seem hugely robust for a hub gear - the CTC mag reported on a few issues a while back, and I've seen other stuff on the web. Also, a friend of mine has a nexus that is starting to feel a bit rattley after about a thousand miles. I think they're designed more for casual riding rather than longer distances. Don't know about the Alfine.



I've three bikes with coaster brakes, two 1ers and a three speed SA which are all fab, am currently skooting to the shops on a Mezzo with a 4 speed Nexus and have two hubs waiting for bikes to be built around them; a 1940s Bendix 2 speed kickback and a brand new steel bodied SRAM Torpedo 3 speed with coaster. I would be really interested to try the new 9 speed coaster from SRAM. And their two speed BB. Iv'e never even ridden a Rolloff equipped bike. Wouldn't be seen dead on one!


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## dellzeqq (19 Feb 2009)

MacBludgeon said:


> Thorn - most accessible for information and was looking at the Raven Tour or Sport Tour. But price does climb steeply once you start adding all the bits on. Reviews are good though and would be tempted over the others. Comes with 26inch wheels.



Don't. At least not until you've dug up the old ACF thread by Wowbagger. An absolute disgrace.

I can give you his contact details if you want.


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## Bollo (19 Feb 2009)

dellzeqq said:


> Don't. At least not until you've dug up the old ACF thread by Wowbagger. An absolute disgrace.
> 
> I can give you his contact details if you want.



Prey tell?

My dealings with thorn have been brief (phone company with requirements - pay for bike - bike arrives - bike put together nicely - ride bike lots) so I'm no expert on their customer service.


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## Bollo (19 Feb 2009)

Just found a thread on CTC. Interesting and disappointing, but not a problem I've had.


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## Wowbagger (27 Jul 2009)

I've just seen this thread.

A propos Dellzeqq's remarks, we broke two Rohloffs on the tandem - flange failure. The first of these was after only a couple of months' use towards the end of LEJOG.





The second I discovered almost a year later when cleaning the bike. Both were replaced under lifetime warranty by Thorn, but I lost some confidence in Robin Thorn himself. I found his staff a lot more helpful, especially when it came to reimbursing the postage costs of sending an £800 wheel, recorded and insured, back to Taunton. For the past 15 months we have had no problems on that score. Rohloff put the breakages down to Thorn's wheelbuilder not lacing the wheels tightly enough.

We have also had a couple of problems with oil seal leakages.

I have a Thorn Raven Sport Tour as well as the Discovery Tandem. I do like the lack of derailleur and the ease of maintenance, but I have, on I think four occasions, had to return wheels to Thorn for oil seal replacement or flange breakage. Chains last a damned long time - I got over 6000 miles out of the first chain on my solo machine and the rear chain on the tandem.

There is definitely resistance in the hubs: wheel the bike along and the pedals turn. However, I think that the slowness of my Sport Tour, compared to my derailleured Mercian, is in the tyre weight rather than the hub gear. Thorn don't recommend putting tyres narrower than 26*1.5 on the Sport Tour because the BB is relatively low, apparently.

My experience of Thorn bikes is that they give a marvellous, featherbed ride. I have carbon bars, seatpost and a sprung Brooks saddle and I can ride the Sport Tour for ever, it seems, without pain (all these luxuries are an attempt to stave off the bad effect of arthritis). The tandem I took on this years Dun Run with the lovely Nutkin, but pain caused her to bail at Darsham station and the wet weather persuaded me that my old room-mate's house in Peasenhall would be a better bet for breakfast than the beach. After that I rode solo back to Stowmarket with no pain whatever, merely feeling dozy from about 10 am onwards. That's 138 miles all told.

One other great point about a Thorn bike with Rohloff is the 100-day moneyback guarantee if you don't like the bike. If MacBludgeon got 13 weeks winter commuting in on his new Thorn Raven Sport Tour he could still decide to send it back for a refund.

So, in spite of my troubles with Rohloffs, I prefer them greatly to derailleurs and I think Thorn frames are just fantastic. I'm not so keen on the tandem's paint job - very flaky - but the solo machine is much better.


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## tandemman (28 Jul 2009)

Have to agree on paint quality, I have a raven twin in Cobalt blue and it scratches very easily and the captain's seatpost has a terrible bubbly finish, excellent bike though, and a lot smoother to ride than our Dawes tandem, we do have issues with changing under heavy load, just like the derraileur setup on the dawes but not as difficult to solve, just back off the power a bit and in she goes


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## SlowJoe (19 Oct 2009)

*Rolhoff hubs*

I may as well have my pennys worth. Mac I too have gone through the turmoil of the hub dilema and have tried all bar the I motion. 

1. I tested the all the thorn bikes recently and as far as i know the eccentric bracket has not been discontinued. IMO you don't want to go the route of a seperate chain tensioner. Some manufacturers tension the chain via the sliding dropouts , this will mean re adjusting your brakes if you can ! ! as the wheel will be misaligned. The vertical drop outs on thorn keep the tension as it should be and if chain stretch happens (less with rolhoff chain) you simply undo the nuts under the bottom bracket and adjust BB to tension . 

2. Rear weel removal does not require tools a quick release is provided and you simply undo two cable to the external box Voila !

3. Ask yourself why Shimano has changed the design of there hubs at least 3 times in a short time span . I think bollo is spot on , they are built for urban poddlers not commuters or tourers. From my trawls through the forums there does seem to be realiabilty issues . I realy don't think the shimano's are up to the job YET ! kind of the early datsuns of hubs. Shimano dipping there toe so to speak after all they make an awful lot of money off of groupsets that change often and we all sprint off to pay another few hundred quid for a groupset. Also don;t expect spares or repair. the continent went down the hub route a very long time ago and that experince has been applied by rolhoff who have upped he stakes by having equal ratio, 14 gears and robustness.

4. A top spec set of derailuers are a joy but they cost too and they wear, everytime they change you are dragging metal across metal and unless you are an absolute fiend of a clean and lube freak they slowly degrade. This is indeed a chore in winter an a nightmare if you go off road. The internal hub will wear but it is constantly bathed in grease and is sealed from the elements . Yes there were issues with the oil leaks but rolhoff say they have adressed this and that most cases of this were people overfilling the hub on the basis of if some is good more is better. I think from my understanding that you can expect a minium of 80,000 KM from one hub probably more , how many years of riding is that !

5. As for weight , us bikers are becoming obssessed with it . If you intend racing seriously , it matters , if you intend to compete XC etc it matters a bit less , if your poodling to the shops or commuting it doesn't and the hub will come out not much heavier once to take into account what it replaces and a ~GOOD steel frame is only fractionally heavier than most alu bikes. BUT it will outlast alu bikes particularly MTB's which are given a heavy work out regulalry. 

Speed is not everything , durabilty , functionailty and longeivity are also serious considerations. 

IMO rolhoff is the daddy , like a BMW its not the most exciting thing to look at but thats not what you are paying for . Its the engineering ( i know I have had the same one for 18 years) It makes sense if you think about it especially if you ride through the winter


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## westofsouth (10 Feb 2010)

Recently fitted a Rohloff CC to my Carrera Crossfire hybrid, liked the result. The frame was then changed for a Surly LHT. Liked this combination even more.

The subject of chain tensioners has been mentioned. IMO the RHf 2 wheel tensioner can introduce drag (particularly when tightly wound), a single wheel type is better.
Having said that, I've found the combination of chainwheel and sprocket which allows me to dispense with a tensioner altogether. The range is 20 to 105".

This was my first bike build. I found the level of difficulty about the same as putting together a piece of Ikea furniture...... but probably more fun :-)


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## Mycroft (28 May 2010)

I've been pouring over the Thorn PDFs, decided on a search and found this thread.

Is there any update?

Mac? hows the SRAM hub?

have you went Rohloff yet?

how did you find Bollos bike?

a potential customer desires replies any time its handy


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## dondare (28 May 2010)

Do Rohloff make a gold-plated titanium hub? I fancy one of those.


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## biking_fox (28 May 2010)

I've had my raven Sport tour for 11 months now. Still very happy with it.

It's been completely reliable, and way way less fuss than a deraileur. It just works. No issues with the 7/8 shift or noise (although it is noisier than a schimano deraileur). Nothing's broken, or needed adjustment - other than retensioning the chain once, which is a doddle. The gear range is superb, and the even spacing a joy.

However it's not a race road bike, even with the dropbar bar-ends, which is a comfortable comprimise. It is heavier, and slower to accelerate than an STI machine. 


I'd suggest contacting Thorn in Bridgewater and going on a test ride with one of their bikes down there. Worth it anyway just to see the factory. But they on;y way you'll know if it's right for you is to ride one.


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## MacB (28 May 2010)

The SRAM I-9 was faultless for nearly a year and 3k miles then it seized totally in January. Was returned, via my seller, then UK distributor, then Germany, repaired(under warranty) and made the same slow way back to me. Has been fine since, another 1k miles. By all accounts I was unlucky but I'm not happy with the SRAM policy of return to Germany. For this reason I wouldn't buy another and also the fact that I didn't need that many gears. Bear in mind it's a bike for commuting only, there is no commute i could possibly have, around here, that needs more than a 3 speed hub gear. I could easily do my 40 mile round trip in one gear and generally did it using 3/4 gears in the range max.

I came to the conclusion that a Sturmey Archer 3 speed, either AW or new SRF3(the latter is what I got) set up with a 2:1 ratio gave everything required for commuting. You get 3 gears approx 40, 54 and 72 gear inches, there's nothing around here I can't climb in 40 inches and 72 is fine as a top gear, I can hammer along at 18-19mph in that comfortably, that's approx 80-90 rpm. Plus I, and my LBS, can strip and maintain the SA hub, I can also afford to keep a spare wheel with one in.

I never tried Bollos Rohloff, but have tried others, they seem a great piece of kit but I can't justify the spend unless I was planning to tour. For general use the gearing is even more pointless than the SRAM, too many of the 14 gears would just never be needed. I still want one but, at present, it would only be in the 'Shiny Shiny' sense of wanting

Just my view and heavily bias towards the concept of a dedicated commuting bike, I have other bikes for other duties. If you want a bike for more uses then a bigger range hub gear may be a better fit. I also tend to ride in an old fashioned style, I change my tempo more readily than I change gears.


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## Mycroft (17 Jun 2010)

Fox 

thanks for the reply, good to hear from a happy Thorn owner. I'm almost convinced, but for the cost, it just stings!

I guess though, I am totally convinced by the idea of the Rohloff, had a few days touring planned for this week, riding partner had serious deraileur probs part way into the first day (2 hours of swearing worth) and it was an angry 46 miles back home on 3 gears (only 2 of which were actually useful)

I'm in N.I. so will have to plan a trip over and check them out


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## Mycroft (17 Jun 2010)

Mac 

Ahh!! I must have switched off seeing the word commute in your other posts 

thanks for the detail though, good to know. I want the Rohloff for touring, no headaches, simplicity and as a "do everything without having much maintenance" go-to bike. I hope it will be my only bike (Tandem aside)

oh yeah, and the shiny shiny has its draw as well 

TBH its either at the end of this year, or the start of this one, I'll plop down my money somewhere.

thanks again for a great thread


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## Tinuts (17 Jun 2010)

I have a Rohloff on my commuting bike.

Plus points: less maintenance than multi derailleur system, ease of use, easier truing of rear wheel.

Minus points: weight, gear ratios more widely spaced than derailleur, difficult to change sprocket, feels inefficient at some lower ratios, it is possible to slip the occasional gear when changing.

Some of what you read by proponents is, imho, hype. It's not the holy grail some make it out to be but is good if you want a robust minimal maintenance system.

Expensive? Yes, but they do come up on eBay.


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