# Shower leaking into wall...



## Andy in Germany (13 Aug 2020)

Over the weekend I noticed there was some mould on the wall in my little apartment. This is not entirely unexpected: it's a basement apartment and has a history of mould in certain conditions, so I cleaned it until the wall was white again and made a not to tell the landlady if it reappeared too soon. That was on Saturday:







This was this afternoon, about 5 days later.

Worse, this is what is on the other side of said wall:






On closer inspection with the Landlady, we discovered that silicon in the corner isn't in contact with the shower base:






Being a mere carpenter I have no idea what you do in this situation. Obviously we need to get someone who knows about these things to sort it out: that's a given.

But what can we do in the sort term: can we reseal the shower as an emergency measure, until we can get hold of an expert, to save me using the Landlady's guest shower, or will that make the problem worse?


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## fossyant (13 Aug 2020)

You might actually have a leak with the concealed taps.

Whilst all this 'covered' stuff looks fabulous, it's a farkin pain when, not if, something needs maintaining.


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## Andy in Germany (13 Aug 2020)

fossyant said:


> You might actually have a leak with the concealed taps.
> 
> Whilst all this 'covered' stuff looks fabulous, it's a farkin pain when, not if, something needs maintaining.



AFAIK the shower is new but the tap is from the bath. The darker tiling is new. I'm not sure what a "covered" tap is: this is normal here.


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## fossyant (13 Aug 2020)

All the pipes in the wall for taps - we usually have them on the bath, so can get to them by removing the bath panel. You may have a tiny pipe fracture or hole. We had a microscopic hole appear in a cold water feed above the ceiling for our downstairs loo - made a right mess. You couldn't even see the hole.


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## Andy in Germany (13 Aug 2020)

fossyant said:


> All the pipes in the wall for taps - we usually have them on the bath, so can get to them by removing the bath panel. You may have a tiny pipe fracture or hole. We had a microscopic hole appear in a cold water feed above the ceiling for our downstairs loo - made a right mess. You couldn't even see the hole.



Because of how I took the picture, it isn't obvious, but the taps are in an outside wall. The mould is on the other side of the all on the left in the shower.


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## Andy in Germany (13 Aug 2020)

Oh, and the silicon is about 2mm away from the basin (?) for a good 30cm/1' along that wall...


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## Andy in Germany (13 Aug 2020)

JtB said:


> I had a new shower tray installed a few years back and it immediately started leaking into the wall. The bathroom company tried to fob me off with saying it was just the external sealant along the edge that needed re-doing but I could tell there was a slight movement in the tray that would cause the external sealant to keep on cracking. In the end it turned out that the sides of the shower tray had not been sealed properly and there was a small gap between the tray and the wall hence the movement. They blamed it on their inexperienced apprentice fitter and once the sides of the tray were properly sealed they re-did the external sealant along the edge and it was rock solid.



What about drying the wall out? Landlady is talking about knocking into the wall and installing a dryer.

If all we have to do is reseal it then the problem will be solved over the weekend.


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## Gunk (13 Aug 2020)

Andy in Germany said:


> What about drying the wall out? Landlady is talking about knocking into the wall and installing a dryer.
> 
> If all we have to do is reseal it then the problem will be solved over the weekend.



I worked in Property Management for many years so I'm familiar with this sort of problem.

I'd get a dehumidifier in there first to dry it all out. Really it all needs to come out, as well as leaking under the bath seal it could be leaking where the shower mixer is fitted in to the tiles, they are notorious for leaking, so just resealing the bath will probably not solve the issue. I also don't understand quite why the mixer is installed quite that low, perhaps there was a bath there before and they didn't bother relocating the taps.

If the wall is that damp, the leak is pretty serious as the wall must be saturated. The problem with landlords is that they usually want a cheap fix.


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## raleighnut (13 Aug 2020)

Get a man in


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## Andy in Germany (13 Aug 2020)

Gunk said:


> I worked in Property Management for many years so I'm familiar with this sort of problem.
> 
> I'd get a dehumidifier in there first to dry it all out. Really it all needs to come out, as well as leaking under the bath seal it could be leaking where the shower mixer is fitted in to the tiles, they are notorious for leaking, so just resealing the bath will probably not solve the issue. I also don't understand quite why the mixer is installed quite that low, perhaps there was a bath there before and they didn't bother relocating the taps.
> 
> If the wall is that damp, the leak is pretty serious as the wall must be saturated. The problem with landlords is that they usually want a cheap fix.



Hi, thanks for the thoughts. I checked and the tap is from the time they had a bath, and was there for decades without leaking. German plumbing is built like a steam locomotive, whereas the shower itself is a self-made affair, put in just before I arrived. Also all the damp is on the back of the shower wall, the tap wall is fine. 

The dark tiles mark where they took the bath out.

They are talking about getting an expert in and starting to call the insurance, and they fully expect to have to knock a hole in the wall and dry it out.

Questions:

1: Will they have to knock out the shower and tiles. or can they access it from the entrance hall side where all that mould is?
2: How much damage would be caused by resealing it temporarily so I can use the shower?


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## Gunk (13 Aug 2020)

Andy in Germany said:


> 1: Will they have to knock out the shower and tiles. or can they access it from the entrance hall side where all that mould is?
> 2: How much damage would be caused by resealing it temporarily so I can use the shower?



It's likely they may have to remove the complete shower tray so you may be without a shower for a couple of days. However it's a stud wall behind it they may just cut a hole in wall instead to investigate. As it's leaking ideally you shouldn't be using the shower, but I know in the real world that's difficult.


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## Andy in Germany (13 Aug 2020)

Gunk said:


> It's likely they may have to remove the complete shower tray so you may be without a shower for a couple of days. However it's a stud wall behind it they may just cut a hole in wall instead to investigate. As it's leaking ideally you shouldn't be using the shower, but I know in the real world that's difficult.



I'm able to use my Landlord/lady's guest shower: I've just done so in fact and it felt like I was touring and going out for the nightly hose down. Thank goodness it's warm: this would be a pain in cold wet winters.

I just tapped the wall and to my surprise it sounded hollow so it may be a stud wall, which makes life easier.

I was thinking of adding silicon to reseal the bottom of the shower so it can't get worse.

I've also been given the mother of all dehumidifiers to leave on while at work...


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## Cycleops (13 Aug 2020)

Yes it's a stud wall, hence the hollow sound. You can cut a section out with a packing knife and remove it, you'll soon see the leak if it's there.
Replacing the section is easy
Once plasterboard gets soaked it's spoiled so you'll likely need to replace the affected part.


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## bikingdad90 (13 Aug 2020)

Problem with shower trays is that the legs are often not strong enough to support a person standing in the tray. Stand in the tray and bounce up and down and you will see that it is most likely not sealed in the majority of places. It needs a proper timber brace underneath to keep it still.

Also other issue with the plumbing is that you need to dry it out and then replace it with water resistant plaster or a sealant layer before the tiles to stop the water going through the grout (which can be pourous) and saturating the plaster behind. Also looks like it might need regrouting as it’s not flush with the tiles.

Insurance usually pays out for stopping a water leak and making good the damage but not rectification of the poor workmanship. 

I had something similar in my old house and cost an arm and a leg to fix a previous owner bodge job!


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## newts (20 Aug 2020)

A failed sealant joint between shower tray & wall tile is unlikely to cause such a large area of mildew. 
Showering is generally a short 'wet' cycle & you'd get a smaller stain on the wall corresponding with the failed joint. 
Short term i'd check the tray for movement/flexing & if all is ok, reseal/silicone the perimeter of the shower tray. This is a straight forward way to elimante this as cause of the the issue, before undertaking major remedial works.
Without seeing pictures of a larger area of tiling it's difficult to judge.


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## Andy in Germany (20 Aug 2020)

@newts: sorry, I forgot to update this: the Landlady took out a section of tile under the shower basin and they pumped out 10 litres of water: the basin has settled while I used it and the leakage seems to be the source. I've been in the apartment for about three months now so that was the accumulated drips from that time.

The floor is tiled under the shower, but the wall is only tiled to just below the silicon join which is probably why the wall came off worse: there's nowhere else for the water/moisture to go.

We have a fairly beefy dehumidifier in there at night to try and dry things off gradually. The wall will be taken out and replaced and while they are at it, hopefully the basin will be better supported...


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## newts (20 Aug 2020)

10 lts is alot of accumalated water, re-bedding the tray to firm things up should cure it & then reseal the joint.
I've inspected alot of failed showers over the years & not seen that much water retained around the tray.
A recent job i had to inspect where the builder had fitted new tray/tiling 2 months previously. Adjacent cracked grout joints were letting water in. They left a 10mm gap between the bottom of tile & tray (set the tiles at wrong height in the room). They covered the gap with pvc window trims & silicone, trapping the water behind & it was soaking up into the plasterboard (poor substrate for wet area tiling). Alot of black mildew within the wall, very unhealthy

Picture from within the stud wall


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## Beebo (21 Aug 2020)

Your best And cheapest option is to remove the plaster board from the bedroom side to expose the inner side of the bathroom wall. 
you can then see what is going on behind the tiles. 
Any leaks or gaps will be immediately obvious. 
the timber studs may be soaking wet or even rotten. Wet wood can be dried, rotten wood needs to be removed.


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## sheddy (21 Aug 2020)

Be prepared for everything to be replaced.


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## alicat (21 Aug 2020)

What has the person who installed the shower got to say about it? He/she would be my first point of call given how recently the work was done.


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## Pale Rider (21 Aug 2020)

Sorry to hear about this @Andy in Germany - a chew on when you've plenty else on your plate.

At least your landlady appears to be showing more interest in fixing it than the average British one would.

Strange to relate, my bath replacement shower was completed yesterday.

All shiny and new, and no leaks - fingers firmly crossed, etc.


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## snorri (21 Aug 2020)

raleighnut said:


> Get a man in


To do the rough work of preparing the site for the woman who will come in to fix it?
Hey it's 2020 !


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## Andy in Germany (21 Aug 2020)

Thanks for the kind thoughts and suggestions. Currently the shower looks like this:






The shower curtain is to theoretically stop water running into the gap in the corner. As you can see there's plenty of space there for the water to build up, and with the tiles running to the wall, the floor is largely waterproof.






Underneath the shower, looking toward the wall with the mildew. The purple looks like paint, and probably isn't waterproof. I don't think the corner between tiles and wall is either, which is how the water managed to get to the plasterboard.


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## Andy in Germany (21 Aug 2020)

Beebo said:


> Your best And cheapest option is to remove the plaster board from the bedroom side to expose the inner side of the bathroom wall.
> you can then see what is going on behind the tiles.



Apparently that's the plan over the weekend. Replacing rotten wood is no problem.



Pale Rider said:


> Sorry to hear about this @Andy in Germany - a chew on when you've plenty else on your plate.
> 
> At least your landlady appears to be showing more interest in fixing it than the average British one would.



Many thanks @Pale Rider: Thankfully the landlady is a good friend and is happy to have a tenant who doesn't pretend to be staying for two weeks for a holiday, change the locks, trash the apartment, and require several months in court to evict again like the last one did...


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## Andy in Germany (21 Aug 2020)

alicat said:


> What has the person who installed the shower got to say about it? He/she would be my first point of call given how recently the work was done.



That's the Landlord who is now seriously ill, and his son-in law who is a good friend of mine, sadly. The family needed this even less than I do right now.


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## alicat (21 Aug 2020)

^^^ Fair dos.


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## newts (21 Aug 2020)

Good to see that the issue is identified & hope all goes well.
A support timber under edge of the tray against the wall helps to reduce over flexing of the silicone joint.


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