# Keltbray employ maniacs



## glenn forger (23 Jul 2013)

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7R6opx0Egs


Not my clip, going round twitter.


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## MickL (23 Jul 2013)

Blimey thats a brown stain moment.


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## glenn forger (23 Jul 2013)

A timid cyclist would maybe have hung left and hugged the gutter. Doesn't bear thinking about.


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## subaqua (23 Jul 2013)

whereabouts in London is that?

If it was coming from one of our projects I can find out who the driver was and he won't be working for much longer


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## glenn forger (23 Jul 2013)

Don't know, sorry, it looks like round Victoria way?


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## idlecyclist (23 Jul 2013)

It looks like its right outside the Houses of Parliament in westminister.
Just where Winston Churchill statue is.


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## HLaB (23 Jul 2013)

I had a SMIDSY do the same this morning but that looked far more scary


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## deptfordmarmoset (23 Jul 2013)

idlecyclist said:


> It looks like its right outside the Houses of Parliament in westminister.
> Just where Winston Churchill statue is.


I think you're right.

Here's another one from the Sun and Sands roundabout down my way:


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## snorri (23 Jul 2013)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> Here's another one from the Sun and Sands roundabout down my way:


Michty me, might is right.


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## deptfordmarmoset (23 Jul 2013)




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## Mallory (23 Jul 2013)

I saw this link posted on twitter. 

Words cannot describe


View: http://youtu.be/s7R6opx0Egs


Apparently Ross Lydall ran a piece on this companies killer trucks a few years back.


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## Mallory (23 Jul 2013)

subaqua said:


> whereabouts in London is that?
> 
> If it was coming from one of our projects I can find out who the driver was and he won't be working for much longer


 
thats Parliament Square


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## Mallory (23 Jul 2013)

WTF


3 incidents with the SAME company!!!!


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## kipster (23 Jul 2013)

Their twitter feed current has a few retweeted articles regarding cycling, including one of a cycling safety event with one of their lorries in a promotional photo.


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## jarlrmai (23 Jul 2013)

Police action required I think here, or maybe a cyclist tapped one of these trucks at some point so now they are immune to correct prosecution.


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## hopless500 (23 Jul 2013)

That's just apalling..


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## deptfordmarmoset (23 Jul 2013)

[QUOTE 2562383, member: 30090"]You're in the wrong lane, glass houses and all that.[/quote]
Maybe entering the roundabout in a car you should be in the middle lane if you're going straight on but it's a fast roundabout and the middle lane would often be the most dangerous option. Buses use the same lane to go straight on. However, I see nothing even potentially wrong with the cyclist's lane positioning for the next exit. Have I misunderstood you?


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## benb (23 Jul 2013)

[QUOTE 2562383, member: 30090"]You're in the wrong lane, glass houses and all that.[/quote]


Yeah, you're right, being in the wrong lane is exactly the same as driving a multi-ton vehicle into a cyclist.


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## glasgowcyclist (23 Jul 2013)

[QUOTE 2562383, member: 30090"]You're in the wrong lane, glass houses and all that.[/quote]

Don't talk rot.

GC


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## HLaB (23 Jul 2013)

[QUOTE 2562383, member: 30090"]You're in the wrong lane, glass houses and all that.[/quote]
They are maybe in the wron lane on approach but that shouldn't matter when they are comming up to the entry 100m or more away and they are in the correct lane there, the driving in this case and the OP and the pictured


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## veloevol (23 Jul 2013)

I've had the same thing happen at that junction. Drivers just don't want to give way.


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## Beebo (23 Jul 2013)

I cycle over the Sun in the Sands roundabout a fair bit, and always take a strong primary in the left hand lane when going straight on, even though the arrows state that you should be in the middle lane.
It would be far more dangerous to take the middle lane and bikes can't go left on the roundabout anyway, because that leads down to the A2 Blackwall Tunnel.
Those arrows are there to help with congetsion when the tunnel gets blocked and the traffic backs up on to the roundabout.


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## snorri (23 Jul 2013)

[QUOTE 2562383, member: 30090"]You're in the wrong lane, glass houses and all that.[/quote]
In the absence of lane markings shouldn't everyone be exercising even more cauition before pulling out?


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## deptfordmarmoset (23 Jul 2013)

Beebo said:


> I cycle over the Sun in the Sands roundabout a fair bit, and always take a strong primary in the left hand lane when going straight on, even though the arrows state that you should be in the middle lane.
> It would be far more dangerous to take the middle lane and bikes can't go left on the roundabout anyway, because that leads down to the A2 Blackwall Tunnel.
> Those arrows are there to help with congetsion when the tunnel gets blocked and the traffic backs up on to the roundabout.


I agree entirely. Also the middle lane is a mixture of traffic going straight on and turning right onto the A2 Dover direction - a 50mph road barred to cyclists.


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## Mugshot (23 Jul 2013)

*187*

*In all cases watch out for* and give plenty of room to

pedestrians who may be crossing the approach and exit roads
*traffic crossing in front of you on the roundabout, especially vehicles intending to leave by the next exit*
traffic which may be straddling lanes or positioned incorrectly
motorcyclists
*cyclists and horse riders who may stay in the left-hand lane and signal right if they intend to continue round the roundabout. Allow them to do so*
long vehicles (including those towing trailers). These might have to take a different course or straddle lanes either approaching or on the roundabout because of their length. Watch out for their signals.


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## benb (23 Jul 2013)

[QUOTE 2562433, member: 30090"]I don't recall the truck driving into the OP in the vid or am I missing something?[/quote]

No thanks to the driver! Only thanks to some good reactions from the cyclist.


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## glasgowcyclist (23 Jul 2013)

[QUOTE 2562433, member: 30090"]I don't recall the truck driving into the OP in the vid or am I missing something?[/quote]

The point.


GC


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## deptfordmarmoset (23 Jul 2013)

Anyhow, seeing as @Beebo knows the junction, and I've been cycling it in its various guises since the late 1960s, maybe we should invite @User30090 to show us how it's done.


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## Melonfish (23 Jul 2013)

what needs to be done to get these damned maniacs off the road? i mean seriously there is some appalling driving going on there.


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## glenn forger (23 Jul 2013)

That rider's bold positioning saved him.


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## Mallory (23 Jul 2013)

Can I also add that the junction is question is appalling. No excuses for the piss poor driving but I've seen many a vehicle shoot straight across those giveaway lines. The traffic light phasing/position before the junction seems to encourage drivers to floor the gas pedal


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## deptfordmarmoset (23 Jul 2013)

[QUOTE 2562599, member: 30090"]Could do, pay for the hire of a Boris Bike and I'm game when giving a lesson on lane discipline.[/quote]
That would be worth it just to see one going up the hill in Greenwich Park - I've never seen one up the hill. Ok, meet at Island Gardens (on DLR) and I'll pay for the bike. Pick a time.


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## mr_cellophane (23 Jul 2013)

Same junction and same camera

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSNn6A2BIw0


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## glenn forger (23 Jul 2013)

bloody hell


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## Mallory (23 Jul 2013)

^what he said


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## Andrew_P (23 Jul 2013)

I would have needed a change of bibs.


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## Mallory (23 Jul 2013)

Driver was lucky not to have a D Lock as an non optional extra


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## Mallory (23 Jul 2013)

It's amazing that in the most heavily policed and CCTV area in the whole of the UK drivers think they can drive like that


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## subaqua (23 Jul 2013)

I have posted this on the thread about finchley incident .

Have asked my H&S board director to arrange a meeting with Keltbray MD to discuss his companies poor driving standards and what he intends to do about it.
I could do with all the keltbray youtube stuff being collated to present to him.

amazing what you can do if you want to.

anybody can write to Keltbray and complain.


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## Hip Priest (23 Jul 2013)

That really is quite terrifying.


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## glenn forger (23 Jul 2013)

Mallory said:


> I saw this link posted on twitter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 



Mallory said:


> I saw this link posted on twitter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


http://www.standard.co.uk/news/cycl...sh-company-6485541.html?origin=internalSearch



> Published: 28 June 2010
> 
> A cyclist is injured after colliding with a construction lorry owned by the same firm involved in the death of a rider three months ago.
> The woman was taken to hospital with a suspected broken ankle after becoming trapped between the Keltbray lorry and a metal railing opposite Borough Tube station, at the junction of Borough High Street and Great Dover Street.
> ...


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## Flossyrockstar (23 Jul 2013)

[QUOTE 2562383, member: 30090"]You're in the wrong lane, glass houses and all that.[/quote]

FFS Really!!


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## fabregas485 (23 Jul 2013)

It is really weird to see Keltbray involved in so many incidents. Its terrible


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## mark st1 (23 Jul 2013)

subaqua said:


> I have posted this on the thread about finchley incident .
> 
> Have asked my H&S board director to arrange a meeting with Keltbray MD to discuss his companies poor driving standards and what he intends to do about it.
> I could do with all the keltbray youtube stuff being collated to present to him.
> ...


 
Seems they like to blow there own trumpet.......


http://www.keltbray.com/news/keltbray-invests-£55-million-improve-logistics-strategy


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## benb (23 Jul 2013)

mr_cellophane said:


> Same junction and same camera
> View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSNn6A2BIw0


 

F!
Actually the most shocking thing about that video is that none of the motorbikes were in the ASZ!!
I get the distinct impression that the driver didn't think they had done anything wrong.


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## subaqua (23 Jul 2013)

mark st1 said:


> Seems they like to blow there own trumpet.......
> 
> 
> http://www.keltbray.com/news/keltbray-invests-£55-million-improve-logistics-strategy


 does the MD know whats going on or is he cosseted? we shall hopefully find out.


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## mark st1 (23 Jul 2013)

Dont know if anyone can put all this together for you ?


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## gaz (23 Jul 2013)

[QUOTE 2562383, member: 30090"]You're in the wrong lane, glass houses and all that.[/quote]
Wrong lane, care to clarify that. Considering that lane directions are only advisory, is there a right or wrong lane?


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## gaz (24 Jul 2013)

[QUOTE 2563532, member: 30090"]Why would you need clarification? It's in the vid.[/quote]
As others have pointed out and as I pointed out. There isn't such thing as the wrong lane in this case. Lane directions are advisory. The cyclist being in a different lane at that sort of speed would have been more dangerous than sticking to a position around the outside of the roundabout and such directions are stated in the highway code, for both cyclists and for drivers.
Trying to lump any blame what so ever on the cyclist in this case just tells us what kind of a person you are.


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## glasgowcyclist (24 Jul 2013)

[QUOTE 2562383, member: 30090"]You're in the wrong lane, glass houses and all that.[/quote]

Let's get your position clear. In the narrowly avoided collision in that video:

a) what did the cyclist do wrong?​b) what did the lorry driver do wrong?​ 
GC


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## GrasB (24 Jul 2013)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Let's get your position clear. In the narrowly avoided collision in that video:
> 
> a) what did the cyclist do wrong?​


Be in the wrong place at the wrong time
​


> b) what did the lorry driver do wrong?​


Show absolutely no regard for another road user when going against lane priority


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## Mile195 (24 Jul 2013)

[QUOTE 2562383, member: 30090"]You're in the wrong lane, glass houses and all that.[/quote]
Completely irrelevant. 

In this country, on roundabouts, you give way to the right. end of.


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## glasgowcyclist (24 Jul 2013)

[QUOTE 2563832, member: 30090"]



a) On the RAB nothing, but on the approach to the RAB they were in the wrong lane for the direction that they would be taking on the RAB



b) Failed to give priority, but having said that there is no statue law that says the driver done anything wrong in this context.[/quote]


The qualifications you've added to your answers are irrelevant so I have scored them out;​a) because cyclist is entitled to enter the roundabout as he did and maintain the lane choice he took, as specifically allowed for in the HC (Rule 187).​b) because it's a stupid response that does not relieve the driver of any liability:​ 
_"Although failure to comply with the other rules of The Highway Code will not, in itself, cause a person to be prosecuted, The Highway Code may be used in evidence in any court proceedings under the Traffic Acts (see The road user and the law) to establish liability. This includes rules which use advisory wording such as ‘should/should not’ or ‘do/do not’."_​ 
The upshot is that the driver was in the wrong, the cyclist wasn't. Anything else is bluster.

GC


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## StuartG (24 Jul 2013)

[QUOTE 2563834, member: 30090"]Can you point me to the relevant piece of statue legislation that says this please, many thanks.[/quote]

If you have to ask that question you are not safe on a bike. And if you drive god help us all ...

Please don't pedant your way out by quoting instances where you should be obeying a Give Way/Stop/Traffic Light that takes precedence over RAB rules. Indeed please stop bringing in utter irrelevances to the situation here. You are making yourself look not so much silly rather as more of a maniac.


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## deptfordmarmoset (24 Jul 2013)

Oh FFS! 185 refers to the approach.



> *185*
> 
> *When reaching the roundabout* you should
> 
> ...


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## HLaB (24 Jul 2013)

I must admit on paper I would prefer to be the central marked straight ahead lane however conditions on the site may dictate otherwise. *Entry* to the rbt however, is irrelevant on an *Exit* at the far side of the rbt, its still an extremely dodgy (potentially fatal) manouvre by the tipper truck.

Edit: I can bold too


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## deptfordmarmoset (24 Jul 2013)

And just below the bit you put into bold...

adjust your speed and position to fit in with traffic conditions
Traffic in the middle lane rarely travels below 30 mph. This is why I'm keen to see you attempt to get into that lane on a Boris Bike. Buses don't attempt it. And cyclists may keep to the left on roundabouts anyway.


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## glasgowcyclist (24 Jul 2013)

[QUOTE 2563917, member: 30090"]Sorry, but a couple of things:

1) I'm not disputing that the lorry driver did not give priority, merely asking if there is a relevant piece of statue legislation that says you must give priority to traffic approaching from the right, so I'm unsure of the relevance of the rule that you have quoted.
[/quote]

The relevance is clear.

Do you dispute that the general rule governing the behaviour of traffic at roundabouts is that drivers should give way to any traffic on their immediate right unless road markings indicate otherwise?

GC


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## gaz (24 Jul 2013)

[QUOTE 2563824, member: 30090"]Where have I tried to ''lump any blame on the cyclist?''[/quote]
Your original glass houses comment. In which you are suggesting that if you ride in such a way, you are asking for trouble.

Now you might not think you are suggesting such, but perhaps you should think about how something has been phrased before you post it, as I'm not the only one which believes such.


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## gaz (24 Jul 2013)

[QUOTE 2563917, member: 30090"]Sorry, but a couple of things:

1) I'm not disputing that the lorry driver did not give priority, merely asking if there is a relevant piece of statue legislation that says you must give priority to traffic approaching from the right, so I'm unsure of the relevance of the rule that you have quoted.

2) Just to reiterate, the only thing I have questioned is that the cyclist was in the wrong approach lane and here is my cut n paste of the HC to back his up.

*4. Roundabouts (184 to 190)*

*184*

*On approaching a roundabout* take notice and act on all the information available to you, including traffic signs, traffic lights and lane markings which direct you into the correct lane. You should

use *Mirrors – Signal – Manoeuvre* at all stages
decide as early as possible which exit you need to take
give an appropriate signal (see Rule 186, below). Time your signals so as not to confuse other road users
*get into the correct lane*
adjust your speed and position to fit in with traffic conditions
be aware of the speed and position of all the road users around you.
[/quote]
77
You may feel safer walking your cycle round on the pavement or verge. * If you decide to ride round keeping to the left-hand lane you should*

be aware that drivers may not easily see you
take extra care when cycling across exits. You may need to signal right to show you are not leaving the roundabout
watch out for vehicles crossing your path to leave or join the roundabout.
 
As I also said before, Lane directions are advisory. So getting in the correct lane is a bit of a none issue. And really, it doesn't effect the outcome of the incident at hand.


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## gaz (24 Jul 2013)

[QUOTE 2564192, member: 30090"]That's a fair point.

The point I was making was to do with lane discipline on the approach to the RAB and that you should not have a pop at other road users when you lack poor lane discipline.[/quote]
You're just nitpicking, in reality the decision to use such a lane had nothing to do with the incident that happened on the roundabout.
Going by your lines of attack to others. Show me the relevant piece of statue legislation that states that lane directions must be followed on roundabouts.


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## stowie (24 Jul 2013)

[QUOTE 2564192, member: 30090"]That's a fair point.

The point I was making was to do with lane discipline on the approach to the RAB and that you should not have a pop at other road users when you lack poor lane discipline.[/quote]


Why not? I have - in the past - contravened the highway code. Does this mean I cannot comment on any other road user? For ever?

Maybe we could extend this principle to other matters of the law.

"He just punched me in the face officer"
"Well, you did get cautioned in 1976 for an unrelated incident, so I don't think you can complain".

Unless you are suggesting that the cyclist being in the wrong lane contributed to the lorry pulling out? Which seems a bit of a stretch considering the lorry was a couple of vehicles back in the queue when the cyclist entered the roundabout.


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## stowie (24 Jul 2013)

Oh, and another thing. The level of care that should be expected from a HGV driver should be higher than those of cyclists, or indeed pedestrians. Because the driver is bringing danger to other individuals by his activity then it is right that the level of responsibility is higher. Having a lorry disregard the highway code and nearly flatten a cyclist is not equivalent to a cyclist being in the "wrong" lane.


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## ufkacbln (24 Jul 2013)

Roundabout position keeps changing

I was appalled by a neighbour's daughter. She was a brilliant driver until it came to a roundabout 

However when we talked later it transpired that the " correct lane" was neither in the Highway Code or taught 

It has now been reinstated, but a lot of people have been taught to use the most convenient lane - whichever that might be


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## stowie (24 Jul 2013)

[QUOTE 2564242, member: 30090"]You're right, I worded that incorrectly.

It's more to do with be prepared when posting a vid that your cycling is up to scratch because some lamo's will find fault with anything.

And no I'm not and never have suggested that the cyclists postion on the RAB contributed to the truck pulling out - merely his lane discipline on the approach to the RAB.[/quote]


It is possible that someone might try to find equivalence, but I hope the police - or Keltway - wouldn't as it is just trying to deflect responsibility of the driver's actions.

I know this roundabout well (although I don't cycle it), and driving it is pretty horrible - the speeds are too high because the roadway is so wide. Cycling must be really horrible and I wouldn't want to move out past the first lane because you will be certain to get some genius trying to undertake whilst others are overtaking. This road layout is one of many where speed of traffic flow overrides all other considerations, and actually makes the road pretty horrible even for drivers. I think there may be a cycle path that runs under the junction, but not completely sure and, as we all know, the quality of these facilities can be often very lacking.


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## martint235 (24 Jul 2013)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> I agree entirely. Also the middle lane is a mixture of traffic going straight on and turning right onto the A2 Dover direction - a 50mph road barred to cyclists.


 Is it? I've cycled it a few times. Usually only to the next junction but I've never noticed anything forbidding bikes. I know I can't turn left on to the Blackwall approach obviously.


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## deptfordmarmoset (24 Jul 2013)

martint235 said:


> Is it? I've cycled it a few times. Usually only to the next junction but I've never noticed anything forbidding bikes. I know I can't turn left on to the Blackwall approach obviously.


Oh, good point, Martin. You mean staying on the slip on and slip off slip road, I suppose. I thought the slip roads had the same prohibited users status as the road itself but looking at Google Street view there's no prohibition sign up, unlike at the tunnel approach entrance. That counts as a missed road on my 'ride every road' project...

Otherwise, I'd choose the Shootershillian charms of Hervey Road or Eastbrook Road to get to the other road.


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## fabregas485 (24 Jul 2013)

I hate to get into this, but surely the safer place in the outer lane unless you are doing a suitable speed?


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## wiggydiggy (24 Jul 2013)

glenn forger said:


> View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7R6opx0Egs
> 
> 
> Not my clip, going round twitter.




Whats happening with this, anything?


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## martint235 (24 Jul 2013)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> Oh, good point, Martin. You mean staying on the slip on and slip off slip road, I suppose. I thought the slip roads had the same prohibited users status as the road itself but looking at Google Street view there's no prohibition sign up, unlike at the tunnel approach entrance. That counts as a missed road on my 'ride every road' project...
> 
> Otherwise, I'd choose the Shootershillian charms of Hervey Road or Eastbrook Road to get to the other road.


I hadn't realised I wasn't allowed for continue down the A2 to Bexleyhell. I have done in the past


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## glenn forger (24 Jul 2013)

wiggydiggy said:


> Whats happening with this, anything?


 
A senior manager at Keltbray got involved and promised he was taking this seriously.


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## downfader (24 Jul 2013)

I spoke to the guy who filmed the video on twitter yesterday. He said a senior manager is involved at the haulage company, but he said he didnt feel it right to leave it to an internal investigation and has sent the link/video to London Met Roadsafe. It looks like things will be looked at which is good for them and better for us.

Theres hope yet.


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## wiggydiggy (24 Jul 2013)

Good result so far if its gone to roadsafe?

I was passed by a tipper truck today and couldnt help but keep looking back until it had passed after reading this and the other tipper threads.


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## Jezston (25 Jul 2013)

downfader said:


> I spoke to the guy who filmed the video on twitter yesterday. He said a senior manager is involved at the haulage company, but he said he didnt feel it right to leave it to an internal investigation and has sent the link/video to London Met Roadsafe. It looks like things will be looked at which is good for them and better for us.
> 
> Theres hope yet.


 
I saw the conversation about them reporting it to roadsafe - does roadsafe ever go futher than the driver just getting an arsey letter though?

Would it not have been better to report the incident directly to the police?


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## downfader (25 Jul 2013)

Jezston said:


> I saw the conversation about them reporting it to roadsafe - does roadsafe ever go futher than the driver just getting an arsey letter though?
> 
> Would it not have been better to report the incident directly to the police?


 

IIRC they will refer if they feel its that serious.


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## BentMikey (25 Jul 2013)

Jezston said:


> I saw the conversation about them reporting it to roadsafe - does roadsafe ever go futher than the driver just getting an arsey letter though?
> 
> Would it not have been better to report the incident directly to the police?


 

Just had my recent red M3 BMW video report replied to, and they're going to send an NIP. I think Roadsafe are pretty good, they are primarily an educational unit, and I'm fine with that. A lot of cyclist camera incidents don't require more than education. Roadsafe also seem pretty decent about prosecuting the ones that should be prosecuted, but it is an imperfect world and Roadsafe don't always get what they want either.


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## Mile195 (31 Jul 2013)

[QUOTE 2563834, member: 30090"]Can you point me to the relevant piece of statue legislation that says this please, many thanks.[/quote]
The give way marks that populate every entrance, onto every roundabout, in the whole of the United Kingdom. They mean "stop if something is coming".


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## HF2300 (31 Jul 2013)

[QUOTE 2562383, member: 30090"]You're in the wrong lane, glass houses and all that.[/quote]

Technically maybe, but it was clear from his road positioning which way he was going. Tipper driver just didn't care. Tippers are notorious for this sort of driving - payment by load etc. etc., giving way costs money.


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## veloevol (1 Aug 2013)

Another Keltbray video albeit less severe. 


View: http://youtu.be/1TKt0_QZA2k


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## Buddfox (1 Aug 2013)

Sure, but about one in every three vehicles at that junction does the same thing, so I'm not sure it's Keltbray specific. Not sure I would have undertaken him approaching the zebra crossing either...


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## HLaB (1 Aug 2013)

veloevol said:


> Another Keltbray video albeit less severe.
> 
> 
> View: http://youtu.be/1TKt0_QZA2k



Its maybe too late at night for me, tiredness but I can't see the driver done much wrong.


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## veloevol (1 Aug 2013)

HLaB said:


> Its maybe too late at night for me, tiredness but I can't see the driver done much wrong.



Not a shocker video but it does show a lack of driving standards. IMO not indicating and deciding it's a good idea to overtake a bunch of cyclists at peak hour seconds from Parliament Square lights shows poor skill.


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## HLaB (1 Aug 2013)

veloevol said:


> Not a shocker video but it does show a lack of driving standards. IMO not indicating and deciding it's a good idea to overtake a bunch of cyclists at peak hour seconds from Parliament Square lights shows poor skill.


I dont know the junction but I still don't see much, IMO more people need to adopt defensive driving/cycling techniques, its not polite but lots of drivers don't indicate.


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## deptfordmarmoset (1 Aug 2013)

Just ordinary poor driving - lack of indication and a zero-gain overtake. Nothing else was going to get in front of him in the queue at the red light so it's hard to see why he needed to pass. But urban cyclists will see dash-and-plug driving time and time again on the roads.


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