# Dutch Sustainable Safety in action



## Richard Mann (24 Jan 2012)

Video of lots of separate bike/ped/bus/car roads from the Netherlands (not Holland!!!):


View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NuOiKCBO1hU
#

Not sure I'd like to live somewhere where quite so much land was given to transport, myself...


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## dellzeqq (24 Jan 2012)

let's face it, it's completely horrible. Like Milton Keynes, but less fun.

Go Dutch? No thanks.......


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## MrHappyCyclist (24 Jan 2012)

Totally inadequate. They forgot to put in a track for skaters, one of skateboarders, one for motorcycles, one for dog-walkers, one for children on tricycles, access roads for trucks ...


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## sheddy (24 Jan 2012)

Ride it and weep...


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## Red Light (24 Jan 2012)

Richard Mann said:


> Video of lots of separate bike/ped/bus/car roads from the Netherlands (not Holland!!!):


 
You're going to have to get the University to knock down quite a few of its colleges to fit those into Oxford and even then I'd love to see you try to train British drivers to behave in the way the Dutch drivers do at about the 40s mark.


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## ushills (24 Jan 2012)

There was even a scooter on the bike lane at around 1:35


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## dand_uk (24 Jan 2012)

Cycle lanes like those in the video are the only way to encourage mass cycling for everyone especially the less fit and more vunerable (old women, children).

The crucial point is that these routes are direct, convenient, feel safe and comfortable. You cannot apply any of those adjectives to any British cycle route I know.


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## Riding in Circles (24 Jan 2012)

Superb, cycling in the Netherlands is a real pleasure.


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## Red Light (24 Jan 2012)

dand_uk said:


> Cycle lanes like those in the video are the only way to encourage mass cycling for everyone especially the less fit and more vunerable (old women, children).
> 
> The crucial point is that these routes are direct, convenient, feel safe and comfortable. You cannot apply any of those adjectives to any British cycle route I know.


 

Only problem is all those pesky building we have getting in the way of the required width.


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## dellzeqq (24 Jan 2012)

dand_uk said:


> Cycle lanes like those in the video are the *only way* to encourage mass cycling for everyone especially the less fit and more vunerable (old women, children).
> 
> The crucial point is that these routes are direct, convenient, feel safe and comfortable. You cannot apply any of those adjectives to any British cycle route I know.


you could not be more wrong - and, to be honest, those traffic schemes are so vile that the price wouldn't be worth paying even if you were right. One thing's for certain - this is in no way 'sustainable'. Covering this amount land with transport is a shocking waste of resources. 

We can all relax. As RL says, you'd have to knock down an awful lot of buildings to build these abominations.

I'm intrigued, Richard. Did someone circulate this in the hope of discrediting the 'Go Dutch' foolishness?


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## stowie (24 Jan 2012)

dellzeqq said:


> let's face it, it's completely horrible. Like Milton Keynes, but less fun.
> 
> Go Dutch? No thanks.......


 
As opposed to this, for example, which is an absolute joy.



I am no great fan of the dutch method of segregation - it should be unnecessary outside major trunk roads connecting urban centres. But I haven't ever heard any other suggestions in dealing with, for example, Stratford Gyratory, outside "vehicular" cycling. Which even the hardiest vehicular cyclists must admit is a challenge in the face of road systems such as these. In the spirit of "show me the drawing" I would genuinely like to understand what might be done with road systems such as these (aside from massively reducing motor vehicle capacity or segregating).


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## dellzeqq (24 Jan 2012)

straw man, Stowie - you'll look in vain for somebody to defend Stratford - but there are any number of things we can do to our existing streets more civilised. And they're the only streets we're going to have for a very long time to come.

Now, if we compare Clapham High Street with those Dutch jobbies, you've got yourself a game. People crowding on the pavements, crossing the road, traffic reduced to sensible speeds, healthy businesses to either side, and waaaaaay more cyclists.....it's all good!


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## stowie (24 Jan 2012)

dellzeqq said:


> straw man, Stowie - you'll look in vain for somebody to defend Stratford - but there are any number of things we can do to our existing streets more civilised. And they're the only streets we're going to have for a very long time to come.
> 
> Now, if we compare Clapham High Street with those Dutch jobbies, you've got yourself a game. People crowding on the pavements, crossing the road, traffic reduced to sensible speeds, healthy businesses to either side, and waaaaaay more cyclists.....it's all good!


 
But it isn't a straw man. I have to cycle the f*cking thing regularly. Clapham High Street might be cycling nirvana with nymphs throwing rose petals in the path to scent your ride, but I don't use it, so I don't know. And Stratford is just one example out of many in London that I could have mentioned.

I see more cyclists on roads in Walthamstow at the moment and it makes me happy. I saw a family cycling (with two children) on Hoe Street at the weekend and I wanted to weep with joy. I know that attitudes are changing. But I still question - what can be done about abominations like Stratford Gyratory that stand a hope of actually being implemented? Without grasping the thorny question of these roads I cannot see how we can expect many people to be cycling them. And they form barriers around key places people want to visit, or need to traverse.


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## dellzeqq (24 Jan 2012)

it is a straw man, Stowie, because nobody is defending Stratford. There's no reason why Stratford could not go back to the way it was fifty years ago, with a high street to the southeastern side, and the railway side turned in to a bus lane - or whatever (it being for the people of Newham to decide), but there is no way on this earth it's going to wind up like the Dutch jobbies.


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## stowie (24 Jan 2012)

The reason it won't go back is because traffic flow is the key factor for the gyratory and anything that affects this won't be tolerated (even having a half decent crossing between Westfield and Stratford Centre seems out of the question). Maybe I am misreading "going dutch" but to me it includes things like your suggestion to revert places like Stratford into an actual high street. As well as treatment of more minor roads that doesn't segregate or exclude cars but make the routes direct for cycling and walking and no through roads for motor traffic.

And if Stratford is a straw man, who is suggesting that places like Clapham High Street (Or Hoe Street or Leyton High Road) should be segregated? I certainly wouldn't want this. But these are almost "self healing" places - the traffic has become so slow that cyclists and pedestrians can almost make these "shared zones" without much help.


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## dellzeqq (24 Jan 2012)

quite. Self-healing is a great expression. The constricted width of the streets, some of which have seen footpaths widened (I'm thinking particularly of Brixton) imposes a kind of 'natural' speed limit on all but a minority of homeward bound cyclists who steam through zebra crossings like snowploughs.

As for what is tolerated or not in Stratford I think you know the answer to this. Democracy in Newham is at a premium. The borough's councillors are muppets. They've slathered love and money over Westfield, which is just grotesque, and, in urban terms asked for nothing absolutely nothing in return. Sadly these people are elected, and it may be that you are one of the electors. All I can suggest is that you do a bit of canvassing. 

That's the rub. The Netherlands is a Calvinist state in which the way you wipe your arse is regulated by the State. People choose this ordering of life because, as children, they were beaten with bibles. Hence the ghastly road systems.


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## Richard Mann (24 Jan 2012)

Strange how Stratford gyratory still has markings for A11 and A12 when those have long since been diverted elsewhere. Newmarket! It's the junction of a few local roads; it doesn't need that capacity any more. Cutting one section of the ring and making the rest two-way would probably do it.

Dell - it was posted by a Dutchman who seriously believed it showed how wonderful the Dutch approach is. (And has asked me to say that he still does)


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## mickle (25 Jan 2012)

From Twitter:

@amsterdamized Amsterdamize
"15 cyclists a week were killed or injured as a result of a hit and run in London" > dominant #*CycleChat* members are a-ok with these facts.

And:
@amsterdamized Amsterdamize
cyclechat.net/threads/dutch-… I think he's also an honorary member of the Flat Earth Society #*CycleChat* #*UK* #*NL*

Meow.


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## dellzeqq (25 Jan 2012)

as fine an advertisement for Twitter as one could wish for.......


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## ozzage (25 Jan 2012)

I don't agree with the insults directed at the people on this forum from twitter, but I find it utterly unbelievable that somebody can look at that video and think "not for me, thanks".

Having lived in Amsterdam for 3.5 years before moving to London (I'm originally from Australia, where I was a boy racer car fanatic :P) I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that the infrastructure and yes, the _segregation_, is a massive part of what makes Dutch cycling great. Sure there are 30 zones everywhere and considerate drivers, but there is also LOTS of traffic on main roads and lots of traffic jams and if I had to cycle along with it like I do here, then I would never have picked up cycling as a habit. And I'm sure that the Dutch wouldn't cycle a tenth as much either. Cycling in NL is relaxing and FUN and suitable for all ages. It will never be those things here without segregation on main routes.

As for not enough space... why do you think that Dutch cities have any more space than British ones! They just have less traffic lanes!

I still cycle here but it's a VERY LONG WAY from how it was in NL and I'm astounded when I read that people actually prefer it the way it is HERE!!


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## MrHappyCyclist (25 Jan 2012)

ozzage said:


> I don't agree with the insults directed at the people on this forum from twitter, but I find it utterly unbelievable that somebody can look at that video and think "not for me, thanks".
> Having lived in Amsterdam for 3.5 years before moving to London (I'm originally from Australia, where I was a boy racer car fanatic :P) I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that the infrastructure and yes, the _segregation_, is a massive part of what makes Dutch cycling great. Sure there are 30 zones everywhere and considerate drivers, but there is also LOTS of traffic on main roads and lots of traffic jams and if I had to cycle along with it like I do here, then I would never have picked up cycling as a habit. And I'm sure that the Dutch wouldn't cycle a tenth as much either. Cycling in NL is relaxing and FUN and suitable for all ages. It will never be those things here without segregation on main routes.
> As for not enough space... why do you think that Dutch cities have any more space than British ones! They just have less traffic lanes!
> I still cycle here but it's a VERY LONG WAY from how it was in NL and I'm astounded when I read that people actually prefer it the way it is HERE!!


For me, as someone who has not cycled in Holland, the problem is that most of the videos and articles we see make it look as though the whole country is covered with massive, wide roads that all include huge cycle lanes, and no room for people who are not actually travelling from one place to another. These videos and articles also give the impression that, for many people here, "going Dutch" is only about segregation everywhere. No mention of efforts to change attitudes (especially of drivers), change laws, etc.

It might be useful if the people who post articles and show videos of some "wonderful" bit of infrastructure, would give examples of what sort of place in Britain they would advocate creating something similar. As it is, we probably end up not comparing like-for-like.

Taking the video in the OP, where might we see something like that shown at 0:53? That does look rather awful if it's a place where people are expected to live or work:


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## Richard Mann (25 Jan 2012)

ozzage said:


> ...I'm astounded when I read that people actually prefer it the way it is HERE!!


 
I think almost all are dissatisfied with what we have here, but want to do something different (or think it's only possible to achieve something different) from the purely-segregationist view of the Netherlands portrayed in that video.

In fact a more-integrationist approach, using cycle lanes (and traffic taming) is not at all uncommon in the Netherlands, with Groningen as quite a good example.


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## slowmotion (25 Jan 2012)

dellzeqq said:


> let's face it, it's completely horrible. Like Milton Keynes, but less fun.
> 
> Go Dutch? No thanks.......


 
It's not entirely about segregation though. Have a look at this. I'm guessing that you will approve.

http://www.terena.org/webcam/


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## dellzeqq (25 Jan 2012)

Ozzage - you're new here, so I'm going to take this slowly...

Take another look at the video. Compare the distance between the buildings on any one of those 'streets' with the distance between the buildings on the bulk of radial commuter routes in to London - Harrow Road, Uxbridge Road, Lower Richmond Road, Wandsworth Road, Battersea Park Road, Clapham Road, Streatham High Road and Brixton Road, the Walworth Road, Tooley Street, the Mile End Road, Bow Road, Romford Road, Kingsland Road, Essex Road, Caledonian Road, Edgware Road....and you will see that, by and large, the buildings shown in the video are further, much further apart than the buildings on the main commuter links. That's a bit of a problem............

Further, you will see that those commuter roads in London have what are called 'active street frontages' in that people passing by stop and (horrible word) engage with the buildings to the side of the road. They walk, often crossing the road, they get on and off buses at bus stops which are closely spaced, they get on and off bikes and they sometimes park their cars. People make deliveries in vans and trucks. Now, look at the video again. There's no sign of this. People, however they are travelling, are on their way to somewhere. That may be because these roads are main highways, but, given the lack of traffic of all types, I somehow doubt it. The frontages are blank, isolated, not contributing activity. That's kind of uncivilised in the sense that civility is about recognising and getting on with ones fellow citizens.

Now, even if you could prove to me that the demolition of all those street frontages to allow the construction of the kind of highway system you seem to want would increase cycling dramatically (and you can't, because it won't) I'd still be against it, because I want to live in a city that is sociable, engaging, where people meet each other, where there are no arbitrary divisions between different kinds of people.

Now - if you read my first contribution you will see that I mention Milton Keynes. You should move there. Cycle paths everywhere. I rode through Milton Keynes during the morning rush hour last Thursday. I did not see one other cyclist. Not one. On the other hand I rode across central London twice this morning and saw thousands of cyclists. And here is the rub. Milton Keynes is a hell-hole. London is the most fun city in the world to live in, except, in my opinion, Beirut and Mexico City (where there are precious few cycle paths).

And now refer to the LCN+ thread on this very board. We, as taxpayers, spent £200 million on cycle routes in London, routes designed by cyclists. Nobody used them. Those ungrateful new cyclists, pedalling BSOs of every description, and some that defy description, went straight down the main roads - before Cycling Superhighways were ever thought of.

So, in summary

- it's not going to happen because it would involve knocking down lots of buildings (copyright Red Light)
- it's not going to happen because it's horrible
- it's not going to happen because nobody wants it
- it's not going to happen because it would be horrendously expensive, and nobody is going to throw good money after the £200million that's already been spunked up the wall


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## StuartG (25 Jan 2012)

dellzeqq said:


> Take another look at the video. Compare the distance between the buildings on any one of those 'streets' with the distance between the buildings on the bulk of radial commuter routes in to London - Harrow Road, Uxbridge Road, Lower Richmond Road, Wandsworth Road, Battersea Park Road, Clapham Road, Streatham High Road and Brixton Road, the Walworth Road, Tooley Street, the Mile End Road, Bow Road, Romford Road, Kingsland Road, Essex Road, Caledonian Road, Edgware Road....and you will see that, by and large, the buildings shown in the video are further, much further apart than the buildings on the main commuter links. That's a bit of a problem...........


 
Del - yes this may an arguement for the above but we still fail dismally to find any solution where there is room. Indeed we do the opposite.

Here is a link to a road I used to cycle regularly: http://g.co/maps/cdsgv
It is Southend Road, Bellingham and was built as a wide dual carriageway to relieve the South Circular (before they decide to not relieve it). You could cycle reasonably safely in the inside lane and the cars had plenty of room to pass. Speeding (>30 mph) was not too bad. Then Lewisham decided to improve it at considerable cost converting the inside lane into permanent and free parking. Meanwhile the central refuge and junctions were 'shaped' to funnel traffic.

The result is that there is no place to cycle but the fast lane. You have to keep to primary to avoid the door zone and if you don't you get sideswapped by cars being funnelled from the right. If you do maintain primary, are a bit tired, carrying a load and on the uphill stretch then drivers get, understandably, a little tetchy. I took a Bikeability Instructor there and asked him how to cycle it. He went a funny colour. He had no solution.

Actually all those parked vehicles could be accommodated in front driveways as they would have been done if this was a private surburbia. So there you are. Given the opportunity Lewisham can screw it up making the street even uglier, more dangerous and busier (given that I now drive that route and seldom see any idiot trying to cycle it).

The Dutch solution may not be ideal but its better than we have got where it could so easily be applied. There may be better solutions but I'd settle for it. Especially after Frank's Dutch (sorry Netherlandy) tour last November ...


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## ozzage (25 Jan 2012)

[QUOTE 1695966, member: 45"]Going Dutch isn't about segregation, but options. You'll see as many cyclists on the roads as on the cycle path beside the road, and it's far more accepted over here.[/quote]

I don't really agree with that. I virtually never saw cyclists on the road when there was a path. It is (to everybody in the UK's horror) usually illegal but more than that you'd be mad to do it when the paths are so much easier and more relaxing! Maybe the fitness guys use the roads but I never really saw that, and I was mostly driving in the NL as I needed to criss-cross the country for work.

re the width in the videos - yes I don't know where that was but it's hardly typical of the whole place. Cities still look like cities, mostly. There are heaps of videos around showing Dutch infrastructure in various guises, in old medieval town centres and on normal city streets.


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## ozzage (25 Jan 2012)

BTW Amsterdam is not really considered to have very good cycling infrastructure. It has many of the problems of London with narrow streets - often worse in fact.

They solve it by basically making it impractical to drive into the centre. VERY annoying by car but nobody really minds as they ride or take the tram. Main issue is the fact that there are so many pedestrians (tourists and shoppers) that you can't even easily cycle right through the middle and have to basically go around the edge of the centre to get to the other side if you need to do it quickly!


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## dand_uk (25 Jan 2012)

dellzeqq said:


> Ozzage - you're new here, so I'm going to take this slowly...
> 
> Take another look at the video. Compare the distance between the buildings on any one of those 'streets' with the distance between the buildings on the bulk of radial commuter routes in to London - Harrow Road, Uxbridge Road, Lower Richmond Road, Wandsworth Road, Battersea Park Road, Clapham Road, Streatham High Road and Brixton Road, the Walworth Road, Tooley Street, the Mile End Road, Bow Road, Romford Road, Kingsland Road, Essex Road, Caledonian Road, Edgware Road....and you will see that, by and large, the buildings shown in the video are further, much further apart than the buildings on the main commuter links. That's a bit of a problem............
> 
> ...


 
our roads are too narrow => http://www.hembrowcyclingholidays.com/comparisons.html


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## GrumpyGregry (25 Jan 2012)

dand_uk said:


> our roads are too narrow => http://www.hembrowcyclingholidays.com/comparisons.html


So. Some roads in the UK are as wide as some in the Netherlands. And your point is?


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## ozzage (25 Jan 2012)

[QUOTE 1696500, member: 45"]Seriously? Amsterdam is great to cycle around. All of it, centre and outskirts. And, conversely to what you claim, bikes are everywhere. On the cycle paths, on the roads, on the pavements, wrong way up one-ways, through red lights.... And people hardly bat an eyelid.

And you see people being put off driving into city centres as a bad thing? That's how it should be.[/quote]

First the last comment: No I think it's great! I drove in a few times but usually I was on my bike or by tram. I LIKE the fact that it's annoying for drivers. I wish Covent Garden and Soho were like that too...

And yes there are bikes everywhere, but on main roads where there are cycle paths available they are very rarely on the road. Obviously when there is no cycle path they are... I cycled a lot in Amsterdam for several years so I'm pretty happy with the accuracy of my statements: compared to many other Dutch cities it's not great (particularly in the very centre). Of course compared to anywhere in the UK it's WONDERFUL!


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## dellzeqq (25 Jan 2012)

dand_uk said:


> our roads are too narrow => http://www.hembrowcyclingholidays.com/comparisons.html


yeah, I've seen Hembrow's blog - truly one of life's eccentrics!


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## dellzeqq (25 Jan 2012)

ozzage said:


> BTW Amsterdam is not really considered to have very good cycling infrastructure. It has many of the problems of London with narrow streets - often worse in fact.


it's funny you should say that, because Amsterdam is the one city in the Netherlands we could learn from. A great public transport system in a dense street pattern, very few private cars and, well, commercial traffic on the canals (darn it, we must have canals!)


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## srw (25 Jan 2012)

dellzeqq said:


> it's funny you should say that, because Amsterdam is the one city in the Netherlands we could learn from. A great public transport system in a dense street pattern, very few private cars and, well, commercial traffic on the canals (darn it, we must have canals!)


A bit like (central) London, then. (Apart from the canals).


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## dellzeqq (25 Jan 2012)

slowmotion said:


> It's not entirely about segregation though. Have a look at this. I'm guessing that you will approve.
> 
> http://www.terena.org/webcam/


hey! That's just like the bottom of North End in Croydon!


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## slowmotion (25 Jan 2012)

dellzeqq said:


> hey! That's just like the bottom of North End in Croydon!


 
It's looking a bit _"film noir"_ right now. I'm half expecting Harry Lime to partly emerge from the shadows....


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## dellzeqq (26 Jan 2012)

having pondered my post above I'd like to roll back my praise of Amsterdam. The city centre, which is the bit I know reasonably well, is very nice. The suburbs are horrible. They're so horrible that David Hembrow probably wants to move there...


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## Richard Mann (26 Jan 2012)

StuartG said:


> Here is a link to a road I used to cycle regularly: http://g.co/maps/cdsgv
> It is Southend Road, Bellingham and was built as a wide dual carriageway to relieve the South Circular (before they decide to not relieve it). You could cycle reasonably safely in the inside lane and the cars had plenty of room to pass. Speeding (>30 mph) was not too bad. Then Lewisham decided to improve it at considerable cost converting the inside lane into permanent and free parking. Meanwhile the central refuge and junctions were 'shaped' to funnel traffic.


 
That could be fixed in a number of ways. Cycle lanes or bus lanes, more pedestrian space, parking in bays, more pedestrian crossings, target 85%ile about 25mph. To be honest, it looks like their heart is in the right place, they just haven't built "clear passage for bikes" into their thinking. A wide dual carriageway isn't a solution: it might have been OK for you, but it would never be used by the mass middle market for cycling.


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## Richard Mann (26 Jan 2012)

User said:


> Clear passage for bikes = the road.
> 
> Simples!


 
If you can show me some examples of "simple" suburban roads with 85%ile 25mph, I'd love to see them. You need to get speeds down to about that level to make them comfortable for middling cyclists (fast cyclists can tolerate about 30mph, because it's the speed differential that matters).


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## Richard Mann (26 Jan 2012)

[QUOTE 1697145, member: 45"]In the ideal world maybe. But my 6 year old cycles to school, and I struggle to imagine a UK culture where I'd be happy for him to be on the road with his older brother. Examples like this make supplementary cycle paths very useful.[/quote]

There's no law against 6 year olds cycling on the pavement. The critical thing is creating routes safe/legal enough to get accompanied 10-yr-olds to primary school, and unaccompanied 11 year olds to secondary school. The latter can be tricky, though it's easier if the routes to primary school exist, so they can acquire some roadsense before being let out without adult escort.


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## StuartG (26 Jan 2012)

User said:


> Clear passage for bikes = the road.
> Simples!


Yep, the point is the clear passage was the old 4 lane road or the Dutch segregated lane system (plenty of room). Either would work here. The latter might have had the advantage of appearing safer to parents who might be encouraged to allow their kids to cycle to the massive Sedgehill School just off this road. As it is Lewisham have driven even the reasonably fearless cyclist off. 

As for (illegally) cycling on the footpath instead - if you move along the road you will see both legal and illegal cars blocking the way (and for anybody with a double buggy).

The elected Mayor of Lewisham is very proud of his Triumph Vitesse. After he was ticketed the traffic wardens mysteriously disappeared from our town centre. Funny things coincidences. Oh and the part time cycling officer is no more. Libraries and much else have been cut but any suggestion of keeping vital services funded by introducing residential street parking charging like nearly every other London borough was studiously ignored. Hence free parking on Southend Road and many others at the expense of cyclists and the community.

Would this happen in Dutch Land?


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## dellzeqq (26 Jan 2012)

I'd have thought that road would benefit from bus lanes.


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## dellzeqq (26 Jan 2012)

mickle said:


> From Twitter:
> 
> @amsterdamized Amsterdamize
> "15 cyclists a week were killed or injured as a result of a hit and run in London" > dominant #*CycleChat* members are a-ok with these facts.
> ...


_Independent Bicycle Ambassador. Urban Mobility Consultant. Marketing Strategist. Traveler. Citizen in the certified Bicycle Capital of the World _​crikey! Almost royalty!​


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## GrumpyGregry (26 Jan 2012)

Richard Mann said:


> If you can show me some examples of "simple" suburban roads with 85%ile 25mph, I'd love to see them. You need to get speeds down to about that level to make them comfortable for middling cyclists (fast cyclists can tolerate about 30mph, because it's the speed differential that matters).


20's plenty.

Calm the speed, and restrict parking either by price or quantity, and cycling will increase because the speed/cost advantage of the car disappears.


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## Glow worm (26 Jan 2012)

I cycled through Holland last year and it was an absolute joy. I loved the segregation tbh but more than that I loved the attitude shown to me by drivers when did I cycle on roads and at crossing points. Yes some of the routes look a little ugly, but nothing that can't be improved through use of more sympathetic materials. I also loved the fact that almost everyone cycles - old/young whatever and in everyday clothes. Hardly a helmet in sight or stitch of lycra to be found. It is a part of everyday life seen as a 'normal' way of getting about the place. Outside every house were bikes as well as cars.

Unlike over here, cyclists aren't seen as eccentric weirdos or lycra nazis. Frankly every mile was just brilliant and I struggle to see why some UK cyclists don't like it. We're not all cut out for dressing up likewe're in the TDF and charging along 8 lane highways at 40mph.

My only gripe was the Dutch obsession with streetlighting. They have to light up almost every lane like Las Vegas - even the cycle paths. That seems a real shame and gave more of a suburbanised feel to even the smallest of villages.


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## GrumpyGregry (26 Jan 2012)

Glow worm said:


> *My only gripe was the Dutch obsession with streetlighting.* They have to light up almost every lane like Las Vegas - even the cycle paths. That seems a real shame and gave more of a suburbanised feel to even the smallest of villages.


Holland not perfect? STONE HIM!


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## dellzeqq (26 Jan 2012)

Glow worm said:


> *Unlike over here, cyclists aren't seen as eccentric weirdos or lycra nazis. Frankly every mile was just brilliant and I struggle to see why some UK cyclists don't like it. We're not all cut out for dressing up likewe're in the TDF and charging along 8 lane highways at 40mph.*


this is the same old tosh put out by Sustrans ten years ago. If you can't make a decent case witter on about lycra and the Tour de France.

To recap
- nobody wants it
- nobody is going to pay for it
- it's horrible


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## GrumpyGregry (26 Jan 2012)

dellzeqq said:


> this is the same old tosh put out by Sustrans ten years ago. If you can't make a decent case witter on about lycra and the Tour de France.
> 
> To recap
> - nobody wants it
> ...


 
You're slipping. We used look forward to several rounds of "Show me the drawing" but nobody ever did, or could.


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## Glow worm (26 Jan 2012)

dellzeqq said:


> To recap
> - nobody wants it
> - nobody is going to pay for it
> - it's horrible


 
That's your opinion and that's fine of course. IMHO though, as long as we have attitudes like yours cycling will only ever be perceived as a peripheral activity for eccentrics in the UK by yer average Joe.


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## dellzeqq (27 Jan 2012)

Glow worm said:


> That's your opinion and that's fine of course. IMHO though, as long as we have attitudes like yours cycling will only ever be perceived as a peripheral activity for eccentrics in the UK by yer average Joe.


given that cycling in my part of the world is seen as a completely normal activity, with bikes outnumbering cars on the main A3/A24/CS7 route in to London, I think my case can fairly put it's trainer shod feet up on the divan!

And this morning's cycling gear consists of emboidered shirt by Peter Werh, sleeveless pullover, jeans by Lee Cooper, Converse All-stars, a rather sweet bumfreezer jacket by All Saints, a delightful striped scarf bought for me by my dear lady wife, and a hat about which we will say nothing, because Adrian the Hat Nazi doesn't approve.


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## GrumpyGregry (27 Jan 2012)

1698443 said:


> What is a lycra Nazi?





dellzeqq said:


> a hat about which we will say nothing, because Adrian the Hat Nazi doesn't approve.


What is a hat Nazi?


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## Glow worm (27 Jan 2012)

dellzeqq said:


> given that cycling in my part of the world is seen as a completely normal activity, with bikes outnumbering cars on the main A3/A24/CS7 route in to London, I think my case can fairly put it's trainer shod feet up on the divan!
> 
> And this morning's cycling gear consists of emboidered shirt by Peter Werh, sleeveless pullover, jeans by Lee Cooper, Converse All-stars, a rather sweet bumfreezer jacket by All Saints, a delightful striped scarf bought for me by my dear lady wife, and a hat about which we will say nothing, because Adrian the Hat Nazi doesn't approve.


 
Do bikes really outnumber cars on the A3? I'm not doubting you but that does sound extraordinary. Assuming it is true, my question would be just who is riding those bikes? I bet its mainly boring middle aged blokes like me, confident in busy traffic and able to hold their own when bullied by drivers. How many kids, how many older folks popping to the shops?

Do your neighbours cycle, or the folks across the street? In my road, they think I'm nuts. (And that's before I get on the bike!) The fact is the Dutch and Scandinavian models work. They get folks of every demographic on their bikes and not just the boring middle aged duffers like me.

If its aesthetics you worry about, it seems a little harsh to pick on the Dutch suburb pictured above. Have you been to Dagenham, Blackbird Leys, Longbridge, Arbury or Stretford recently? (With all due respect to the good folks what live there). Frankly Most British big towns and cities are sh*tholes or have large areas that are tbh bloody awful. I can't see how a re-prioritisation of our streets in favour of bikes, peds and buses/ trams whatever and getting rid of a lot of motorised traffic can be a bad thing. 

There's nothing to stop the boring blokes in all the gear continuing to hair down the A11 as if their arses were on fire- I've nowt against them and they're welcome to it. I'd value a network of safe off road routes that actually link up and go where you want to go and I'd love to see everyone using them. Not just the BMABs

And I won't ask who on earth Peter Werh is! (didn't he play for Leeds once?).


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## dellzeqq (27 Jan 2012)

Glow worm said:


> Do bikes really outnumber cars on the A3? I'm not doubting you but that does sound extraordinary.


yes, and by quite a bit. In January. And, as Susie rightly points out, there are so many cyclists at rush hour that it's worth going early or late to avoid the crush. And they come in all sorts, although if I'm completely honest there are more men than women, there's a bias towards 20somethings and people of colour are under-represented.



Glow worm said:


> Do your neighbours cycle, or the folks across the street? In my road, they think I'm nuts. (And that's before I get on the bike!) .


you said it. I reckon that as many bikes go up and down my street (a small side street used as a cut-through) as private cars



Glow worm said:


> If its aesthetics you worry about, it seems a little harsh to pick on the Dutch suburb pictured above. Have you been to Dagenham, Blackbird Leys, Longbridge, Arbury or Stretford recently?


You've missed the point (or invented your own). I do not give a flying fark about the 'aesthetics'. I care about congeniality, and, with that in mind, it's not at all harsh to pick on the Dutch suburb because it has been consciously designed as an hommage to the Midwest in which contact and congeniality can be measured in minus numbers. See 'active frontages' above. And, if Dagenham and Blackbird Leys bother you then I suggest you go back - in both you'll see people shopping locally, going to church locally, walking to schools and bus stops, saying hello to their neighbours.



Glow worm said:


> Frankly Most British big towns and cities are sh*tholes


you've clearly got a big problem. Cities are happy collisions of people, working, studying, taking their ease in a thousand different ways. Cities are the cradles of civilisation. Cities are the places you go to meet people that are different from yourself. Cities are where you find conversation. 



Glow worm said:


> I can't see how a re-prioritisation of our streets in favour of bikes, peds and buses/ trams whatever and getting rid of a lot of motorised traffic can be a bad thing.


nobody is arguing against a presumption in favour of public transport, bikes and pedestrians, and that you and the rest of the CEGB lot have the gall to suggest that we do, and, in doing so, call us 'lycra nazis' is testament to a dishonesty that, frankly, I despise.

I'd value a network of safe off road routes that actually link up and go where you want to go and I'd love to see everyone using them. Not just the BMABs[/quote]good - write to the DfT, your council and your MP. Tell you what - write and tell them that you blame the cyclists for people not cycling. They're bound to be impressed.


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## Richard Mann (27 Jan 2012)

London is a bit biased towards fast male middle-class white cyclists; yes.

Oxford however has the full range, and mostly using bike lanes on the main roads. 45% female; 90% middling-slow. That is because the traffic has been tamed enough that a wide range of people feel able to use the most direct roads. Mostly the kids use the back routes, but I'm even seeing some younger children on the main roads (8 yr olds on a 14,000mvpd main road!)

Incidentally, the high Dutch proportion of female cycling may be a bad sign: it means the men are driving.


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## Glow worm (27 Jan 2012)

It was George Wier (not Peter) I was thinking of and I'm sure he played for Leeds but not so apparently.

How do you do that multi quote thing? 

And forgive my ignorance but who is 'Susie'? It sounds like your neighbourhood is great and don't want to get into any town vs country debates - each to their own I suppose. The 'people taking their ease' bit had me spitting coffee though- brilliant - v.funny! I'll remember that next time I step off the train with the scrum at King's Cross

You mis read several of my points. None of the places I mentioned bother me at all. I never said that they did. But who is to say the same 'going to church' etc doesn't hapen in Dutch suburbs too? Have you been to the place pictured? Sure the place looks pretty hideous, but at least the folks who live there can escape it safely and comfortably on a bike.

You completely mis understood my reference to lycra nazis. I dislike the term as much as anyone. If you re- read what I writ, I said I felt that that is how cyclists can be perceived by some of the non-cycling British public.

Stating that I'm blaming cyclists for people not cycling is frankly bizzare (and a bit funny). It's not black and white of course- I'd never say everything is great in the Netherlands and everything is crap here. I simply feel that on balance, they have have got things right more often than not. We seem quite often to have got many things wrong here.


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## dellzeqq (27 Jan 2012)

Glow worm said:


> That's your opinion and that's fine of course. IMHO though, as long as we have attitudes like yours cycling will only ever be perceived as a peripheral activity for eccentrics in the UK by yer average Joe.


speaks for itself..........


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## dellzeqq (27 Jan 2012)

1698572 said:


> Style is available here .







????


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## User169 (27 Jan 2012)

Glow worm said:


> Have you been to the place pictured? Sure the place looks pretty hideous, but at least the folks who live there can escape it safely and comfortably on a bike.


 
I worked there for 2,5yrs. No-one actually lives there; it’s blocks of office space in the main. I would guess that most people travelling there would do so by car – most of my colleagues certainly did – notwithstanding all of the segregated lanes.

My own commute involves about 10m of segregated cycle lane and it’s the most dangerous part of the route by a considerable margin.


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## GrumpyGregry (27 Jan 2012)

Dear lovely CEGB separate infrastructure types,

Stop blaming your existing fellow cyclists for the fact that non-cyclists don't cycle.
Stop denying that integrationists want traffic calming and traffic reduction.
Stop kidding yourselves that integrationists would not like a quality network of off-road cycle routes.

Start figuring out the costs of providing that infrastructure.
Start explaining how you will get it funded.
Start producing the drawings.

and please, please, please accept the political, social and cultural reality that the UK is NOT The Netherlands, or Denmark and is never going to be.

Regards

Greg


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## Glow worm (27 Jan 2012)

Delftse Post said:


> I worked there for 2,5yrs. No-one actually lives there; it’s blocks of office space in the main. I would guess that most people travelling there would do so by car – most of my colleagues certainly did – notwithstanding all of the segregated lanes.


 

You sure that wasn't Slough?!

[/quote] My own commute involves about 10m of segregated cycle lane and it’s the most dangerous part of the route by a considerable margin. [/quote]

Just out of interest - why is that bit so dodgy?


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## Glow worm (27 Jan 2012)

GregCollins said:


> Dear lovely CEGB separate infrastructure types,
> 
> Stop blaming existing your fellow cyclists for the fact that non-cyclists don't cycle.
> Stop denying that integrationists want traffic calming and traffic reduction.
> ...


 
Deep breaths now, and...relax............


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## Domestique (27 Jan 2012)

London is an exception rather than the norm when it comes to cycling numbers in the UK isnt it? 
Its not likely that Dutch style infrastructure will be happening in the UK soon but Strict Liability would go a long way to help balance the situation.


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## snorri (27 Jan 2012)

1699013 said:


> Has anyone told me what a Lycra Nazi is? Is it anything to do with Boss selling cycling kit?


This is what Google came up with, hope it helps.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/demonlordetna/3520575029/


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## dellzeqq (27 Jan 2012)

snorri said:


> This is what Google came up with, hope it helps.
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/demonlordetna/3520575029/


classic! And not just for this..... Hi, I'm an admin for a group called ​onepiece swimsuit​, and we'd love to have this added to the group! ​


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## dellzeqq (27 Jan 2012)

Domestique said:


> London is an exception rather than the norm when it comes to cycling numbers in the UK isnt it?
> Its not likely that Dutch style infrastructure will be happening in the UK soon but Strict Liability would go a long way to help balance the situation.


setting aside pockets like Oxford and Cambridge, that's very true. And London itself is kind of hit and miss - southwest London being the hit and some of northeast London being the miss. And the southwest London boom is all on main roads. Perhaps we're uniquely blessed in some genetic way, and the Gov. should start up a breeding programme to create the next generation of cyclists? (And watch that get quoted by the CEGB nitwits)


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## GrumpyGregry (27 Jan 2012)

Glow worm said:


> Deep breaths now, and...relax............


Go and patronise someone who cares.


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## snorri (27 Jan 2012)

Domestique said:


> London is an exception rather than the norm when it comes to cycling numbers in the UK isnt it?


Edinburgh has shown big increases in cycling numbers, a more conspicuous increase than London I would say.


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## dellzeqq (27 Jan 2012)

I apologise. Edinburgh is booming. Although if you can count 45 cyclists waiting at the same red light, I will gladly buy you a pint!


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## snorri (27 Jan 2012)

dellzeqq said:


> Although if you can count 45 cyclists waiting at the same red light, I will gladly buy you a pint!


Only in the red light district.


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## Glow worm (27 Jan 2012)

Brilliant! I've manged to get the BMAM frothing in rage at their keyboards which if nothing else is a result. 

Some folk like cycling the way it is over here, some don't. I can't see that's any reason why we can't have a sensible debate about it without going off on one but there we are. 

If you feel that you'll entice more folks into cycling by getting them to ride up and down the A3, dressed in gear so garish that it would make Timmy Mallet blush, then great, good luck with it!


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## dellzeqq (28 Jan 2012)

GregCollins said:


> Dear lovely CEGB separate infrastructure types,
> 
> Stop blaming your existing fellow cyclists for the fact that non-cyclists don't cycle.
> Stop denying that integrationists want traffic calming and traffic reduction.
> ...


well, quite. I was going to say that it's a bit like dealing with the Jehovah's Witnesses, but I've got a soft spot for the JWs and usually invite them in for a cup of tea. Of course I'd invite the CEGB in for a cup of tea as well - if I had a segregated cycle lane in the hallway, which, sad to say, I don't.


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## MrHappyCyclist (28 Jan 2012)

Domestique said:


> Its not likely that Dutch style infrastructure will be happening in the UK soon but Strict Liability would go a long way to help balance the situation.


Yes, but to be fair, I think presumed liability is more sensible.


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## Richard Mann (29 Jan 2012)

Being a bit more positive, what do people think about this sort of thing:

http://g.co/maps/x7es2


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## GrasB (29 Jan 2012)

The usual complant about the width of the cycle lane - it needs to be about twice the width. That said, in my very limited, cycling experience of cycling in the Netherlands motorists are a lot more understanding & respectful around cyclist.


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## Red Light (29 Jan 2012)

Richard Mann said:


> Being a bit more positive, what do people think about this sort of thing:
> 
> http://g.co/maps/x7es2


 
In a UK context, horrible. Cycle lane in the dooring zone on the left. Cycle lanes too narrow (note cyclist having to cycle outside it to cycle two abreast. Swing the camera round and see horrible pinch points with the central islands at the railway crossing - the last place I would want to have an accident and be lying on the ground with the barriers coming down. It probably works in the Netherlands because of driver attitudes but here it would be another crap cycle facility.


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## Richard Mann (29 Jan 2012)

1701442 said:


> Excellent idea, a lane specially designed to keep cyclists in the door zone.


 
I think fast cyclists would probably take primary on that road (and they're the ones most at risk from a serious dooring injury). It's a "suggestion" lane, so no obligation to use it (unlike normal Dutch bike lanes, which are in theory obligatory).


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## srw (29 Jan 2012)

But the suggestion is a silly one. Even without the door zone issue, the slowest cyclists should be, at the very least, at the edge of those lanes - and right out in the middle of the lane at the pinch point.

The paint would better have been expended decorating the carriageway with giant cycle icons, like you see in Central London.


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## MrHappyCyclist (29 Jan 2012)

I agree with the points about the cycle lanes being too narrow, and passing along the outside of car parking. Looking further back down the road, the door zone thing seems to be very common along there.

It looks quite similar to a lot of the cycle lanes we have round here which, based on experience, I think would be better removed altogether. However, much further back down the road I did notice an interesting difference compared to what we have here:






Notice that the bicycles have priority when the cycle lane rejoins. Here, there would be give way lines across the end of that cycle lane. Of course, this Dutch version would probably result in cyclists being hit by cars, buses and trucks if it were done like that in this country. It has much more to do with the culture than with the segregated facilities, especially in towns.


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## MrHappyCyclist (29 Jan 2012)

1701587 said:


> The problem with your lanes, suggestion or otherwise, is that they instill belief in motorists that they are where we belong. This example being a run of the mill stupid one.


I might be inclined to change that slightly: "... they instill belief in _*British*_ motorists that they are where we belong." I suspect the Dutch culture, supported by presumed liability as well as a clear will to prosecute drivers for dangerous behaviour around cyclists and press uproar* over the same, would result in a rather different outlook.

(*There was a good video showing a comparison between a Dutch case and UK ones, but I can't find it now.)


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## GrumpyGregry (29 Jan 2012)

Richard Mann said:


> Being a bit more positive, what do people think about this sort of thing:
> 
> http://g.co/maps/x7es2


I'd say it's awful, for all the reasons outlined above, and then some, but inspection reveals it is in Utrecht and therefore I must be wrong.


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## Red Light (29 Jan 2012)

Richard Mann said:


> I think fast cyclists would probably take primary on that road (and they're the ones most at risk from a serious dooring injury). It's a "suggestion" lane, so no obligation to use it (unlike normal Dutch bike lanes, which are in theory obligatory).


 
Dooring is one of the most common causes of serious injuries to cyclists - 8% of serious injuries in London and the fourth biggest cause of serious injuries. There is no excuse in saying it hopefully won't happen.


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## GrasB (29 Jan 2012)

MrHappyCyclist said:


> I suspect the Dutch culture, supported by presumed liability as well as a clear will to prosecute drivers for dangerous behaviour around cyclists and press uproar* over the same, would result in a rather different outlook.


I went to the Netherlands to test ride a few recumbents. I was happily riding away until I decided to turn round & return to the shop as I was unsure of where I actually was (best to retrace my route while I could still remember it fully). Not being that well aquatinted with the machine I was riding I had little confidence pulling away so waited for the cars to pass before I pulled off. The last driver stopped & after a fashion asked if I was okay, she found it odd that I hadn't taken my priority on the road. I said I was just making sure I didn't ride off in the wrong direction - actually I just wanted to be behind rather than infront of the cars. Can you imagine a driver in the UK asking if you were okay for not pulling away at the first opportunity?


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## GrumpyGregry (29 Jan 2012)

Glow worm said:


> Brilliant! I've manged to get the BMAM frothing in rage at their keyboards which if nothing else is a result.


What is a BMAM? I'll guess MAM=middle aged man but otherwise have no clue.
The only froth involved was that on my flat white btw.



Glow worm said:


> *Some folk like cycling the way it is over here, some don't.* I can't see that's any reason why we can't have a sensible debate about it without going off on one but there we are.


There you go again. The good old CEGB all-or-nothing our-way-or-the-highway binary mentality. Not (m)any of us on this thread who ride on the roads "like" cycling the way it is over here. We tolerate it, and refuse to be driven off the roads where we have the right to ride, and a lot of us try to change and improve things by campaigning, but because we don't agree that the CEGB dream is deliverable, we get accused of discouraging cycling!

If you want a sensible debate and want to promote seperate cycling infrastructure as a solution and means of encouraging cycling and increasing modal share then please:

Start or join a local cycle campaign group.
Start figuring out the costs of providing that infrastructure.
Start explaining how you will get it funded.
Start producing the drawings.
Start engaging with the people you actually need to influence (Clue: you won't find them in Cycling forums, they tend to hang out in Council Offices)

and when you've given up on that route, as I have, as utterly unimplementable in the current climate in most of England's green and pleasant land, cities, towns and villages, give us a shout and we will give you a few pointers on what is achievable by way of promoting cycling in your neck of the woods...

PS I rarely wear lycra and abhor hi-viz for it doth offend mine eye.


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## GrumpyGregry (29 Jan 2012)

GrasB said:


> Can you imagine a driver in the UK asking if you were okay for not pulling away at the first opportunity?


No. But I recently had a car driver stop and ask me if I was ok, did I need a hand, did I have all the tools I needed.

The driver was a cyclist too. Most drivers in Holland are cyclists too.


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## Glow worm (29 Jan 2012)

GregCollins said:


> and when you've given up on that route, as I have, as utterly unimplementable in the current climate in most of England's green and pleasant land, cities, towns and villages, give us a shout and we will give you a few pointers on what is achievable by way of promoting cycling in your neck of the woods...
> 
> PS I rarely wear lycra and abhor hi-viz for it doth offend mine eye.


 
Thanks Greg. I had no intention of falling out with anyone over this, being fairly new to this site and certainly this section of it. It's only my point of veiw after all. I didn't realise folks feel so strongly about a few cycle paths here and there!

I am only coming at this from the perspective of one who uses a bicycle more as a means of getting about for every day stuff rather than as an end to itself (weekend rides etc). I don't give a toss about who won the TDF last year and I don't really know my head sets from my bottom bracket. It's less about the bike, more the making the journey more pleasant.

My experience is that I generally enjoy cycling more, when I'm not being bullied by motorised traffic. I suspect that more dedicated cycle routes might just encourage a few more to ditch the Mondeo. My point is only that it seems to have worked pretty well elsewhere.

Coincidentally, I was reading about some place in London in today's paper that looks pretty good for all road users. I wondered what you or others who might know the area think of it. Is it more the kind of thing you fellas on here would be happier with ? (Its called Exhibition Road.) Anyway, it looks great to me, but then I did say I found the Netherlands to be brilliant and look where it got me on here!

The BMAM just means boring middle aged men (like me). ie the already converted. I'm more interested in getting those who currently wouldn't dream of doing so (perhaps because however mistakenly they perceive it as dangerous) to try cycling. Just ask your non-cycling friends what would encourage them to jump on a bike.

Right - I'd forgotten all bout this thread tbh until a little red thing appeared on the top right of the screen, so I'll leave you good folks to it and retire back my home ground, the slightly less bear pit environment of the cafe!


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## snorri (29 Jan 2012)

GregCollins said:


> The good old CEGB all-or-nothing our-way-or-the-highway binary mentality.


I have to say your own mentality comes over in this thread as being remarkably similar to CEGB, only at opposite ends of the spectrum. 
I just find it difficult to feel relaxed about people cycling, perhaps with children in a cycle trailer, along a dual carriageway shared with heavy goods vehicles and cars travelling at up to 70mph.
What do you consider achievable in order to ease my concerns in the case I describe ?


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## slowmotion (29 Jan 2012)

Glow Worm, you made some excellent points. Thank you. I too am an enormous admirer of the Dutch model. It's great to cycle in Holland and I really can't fault how it works there. I think it works so well because it is designed for huge numbers of ordinary people going at a steady pace. As others have said, the vast majority of motorists are cyclists as well and that helps enormously. I don't have much hope for the UK being able to go down that route though, alas. 

BTW, when are you going back?


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## Red Light (30 Jan 2012)

slowmotion said:


> I think it works so well because it is designed for huge numbers of ordinary people going at a steady pace.


 
So called "rolling pedestrians". Which makes it a pain if you want to go anywhere at a reasonable speed as most London cycle commuters seem to want to.


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## GrumpyGregry (30 Jan 2012)

snorri said:


> I have to say your own mentality comes over in this thread as being remarkably similar to CEGB, only at opposite ends of the spectrum.
> I just find it difficult to feel relaxed about people cycling, perhaps with children in a cycle trailer, along a dual carriageway shared with heavy goods vehicles and cars travelling at up to 70mph.
> *What do you consider achievable in order to ease my concerns in the case I describe ?*


Loads....

an alternative route on existing roads, with appropriate speed limiting and traffic calming reduction if needed, away from this hostile road? a reduced and enforced speed limit on the dual carriageway? other traffic calming and reduction measures? et cetera.

A seperate off carriageway cycle lane would have my support 100% on your road, and everywhere else these are proposed, if you can show it can be fitted in, you can show it can be funded from a diminishing pot of restricted resources, and you can show it has more than a snowballs chance in hell of getting built.


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## dellzeqq (30 Jan 2012)

Glow worm said:


> Coincidentally, I was reading about some place in London in today's paper that looks pretty good for all road users. I wondered what you or others who might know the area think of it. Is it more the kind of thing you fella's on here would be happier with ? (Its called Exhibition Road.) Anyway, it looks great to me, but then I did say I found the Netherlands to be brilliant and look where it got me on here!


http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/exhibition-road.92991/

And, sadly, it's come in for some serious sniping from the CEGBeebies. I like it, but, more to the point, I think it's great that it was tried out.


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## snorri (30 Jan 2012)

GregCollins said:


> Loads....
> 
> an alternative route on existing roads, with appropriate speed limiting and traffic calming reduction if needed, away from this hostile road? a reduced and enforced speed limit on the dual carriageway? other traffic calming and reduction measures? et cetera.
> 
> A seperate off carriageway cycle lane would have my support 100% on your road, and everywhere else these are proposed, if you can show it can be fitted in, you can show it can be funded from a diminishing pot of restricted resources, and you can show it has more than a snowballs chance in hell of getting built.


Your first paragraph was seen as completely pie in the sky and not worth wasting time arguing about, the second paragraph was seen as a more practical solution and was achieved following much hard work by campaigners.
Anyway, it is good to see you are not entirely opposed to segregation in some situations.


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## GrumpyGregry (30 Jan 2012)

snorri said:


> I have to say your own mentality comes over in this thread as being remarkably similar to CEGB, only at opposite ends of the spectrum.





snorri said:


> Anyway, it is good to see you are not entirely opposed to segregation in some situations.





GregCollins in post #70 said:


> Stop kidding yourselves that integrationists would not like a quality network of off-road cycle routes.


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## Glow worm (30 Jan 2012)

slowmotion said:


> BTW, when are you going back?


 
Maybe Amsterdam next spring with luck. Mrs G will Squeezy Jet it (shudder) and I'll bike it from the Hook. At least I'll get a more comfortable seat for the trip!


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## Glow worm (30 Jan 2012)

dellzeqq said:


> http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/exhibition-road.92991/
> 
> And, sadly, it's come in for some serious sniping from the CEGBeebies. I like it, but, more to the point, I think it's great that it was tried out.


 
Oh I missed that. Looks pretty radical, I must venture out that way next time in down there. I still don't know what CEGB stands for (Hereabouts CGB is the Cambridge Guided Busway!) but assuming you mean cylcists who prefer the Dutch model, I can't see too many reasons for complaint. Maybe it's just cos it's fairly new and takes some getting used to while all users get their heads around it.


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## GrasB (30 Jan 2012)

GregCollins said:


> No. But I recently had a car driver stop and ask me if I was ok, did I need a hand, did I have all the tools I needed.
> 
> The driver was a cyclist too. Most drivers in Holland are cyclists too.


But what you have to understand is that the Dutch see cycling as we see walking, something everyone does because it's the norm. Where as cycling in the UK is seen as something a little different. It's a different mindset.


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## GrumpyGregry (30 Jan 2012)

GrasB said:


> But what you have to understand is that the Dutch see cycling as we see walking, something everyone does because it's the norm. Where as cycling in the UK is seen as something a little different. It's a different mindset.


It's a different country. Different culture, different legal system, different population density, different social history, different geography, et cetera. Understanding how the Dutch see cycling is of very limited utility on the UK.

Better we understand how the British see cycling and figure out what, if anything, we can do to change that thinking.

Odd that the biggest boost given to cycling in London in recent years was a bunch of terrorists, and a Tory fop. Gotta love the bomb dodgers and Boris.


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## GrumpyGregry (30 Jan 2012)

Glow worm said:


> Oh I missed that. Looks pretty radical, I must venture out that way next time in down there. I still don't know what CEGB stands for (Hereabouts CGB is the Cambridge Guided Busway!) but assuming you mean cylcists who prefer the Dutch model, I can't see too many reasons for complaint. Maybe it's just cos it's fairly new and takes some getting used to while all users get their heads around it.


Cycling Embassy of Great Britain

and their manifesto (with my comments in _italics_)

*We, the Cycling Embassy of Great Britain* represent everyone, young or old, fit or not, who wishes to use their bike – and by bike we mean any form of cycle including tricycles, handcycles, recumbents, cargo bikes or tandems – as transport. We believe that everyone – be they five or ninety-five – should have the freedom to go about their business by bike without fear or harassment.

_Not much to disagree with there_...

*We believe that* Britain’s planning and transport policies to date have served to confine cycling only to the quick and the brave, leaving the rest of us behind. Promoting cycling without tackling this will not raise cycling levels significantly.

_Sadly all too true..._

*We believe that* current rates of cycling in this country are too low, that targets to increase them are miserably un-ambitious and that a decent rate of cycling should be nearer 30 or 40% of all journeys

_Certainly rates are too low. It would be churlish to quibble over exactly what a decent target is..._

*We believe that* this can only be achieved by the provision of dedicated safe cycle infrastructure, in line with the best practice found around the world.

_Oh, dear me, no._


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## dellzeqq (30 Jan 2012)

GrasB said:


> But what you have to understand is that the Dutch see cycling as we see walking, something everyone does because it's the norm. Where as cycling in the UK is seen as something a little different. It's a different mindset.


it all depends where you are in the UK - in the southeast outside of London cycling may be seen as 'different' or a threat, but in my part of London, and in other parts besides it's completely normal. 

And, while there are clearly differences between Newmarket on the one hand and London on the other - if bikes outnumber private cars on some of the main roads here _without cycle paths_, what lesson do you think we should learn from that?


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## GrasB (30 Jan 2012)

dellzeqq said:


> And, while there are clearly differences between Newmarket on the one hand and London on the other - if bikes outnumber private cars on some of the main roads here _without cycle paths_, what lesson do you think we should learn from that?


Things are going well. This is all well & good however is misses the point of my original post. Which was would a motorist in the UK ask if you were okay for waiting for cars to pass when I had priority?


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## dellzeqq (30 Jan 2012)

GrasB said:


> Things are going well. This is all well & good however is misses the point of my original post. Which was would a motorist in the UK ask if you were okay for waiting for cars to pass when I had priority?


well, sorry, but 30 million people have driving licenses in this country. So there might be 30 million different answers


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## Prestwick (11 Aug 2012)

Would it be OT to mention the cycling infrastructure in and around Copenhagen?

Still segregated but better use of land than basically annexing almost 50-70m worth of land like in that Dutch example video on page 1. Also the use of integrated traffic lights on Copenhagen's routes soothe friction with car drivers.

BUT. While the infrastructure is top notch the cyclists in Copenhagen are an absolute nightmare. Each of them a candidate for silly cyclists, many riding as slowly as possible in bikes worth less than a Boris bike, with little or no situational awareness (most I saw rarely took the time to look about choosing to stare dead ahead and pray when crossing intersections), with no safety or fluorescent gear and who have no idea how to hand signal.

Maybe we could do a deal: if Denmark come and install their system in London we can go to Copenhagen and teach them all how to cycle properly!

Okay rant over. My point is that our cycling style and Denmark's infrastructure would be a great fit.

EDIT: also to counter the "on the continent, cycling is like walking" argument, talk to my Danish friends about cyclists and the familiar motorist complaints come creeping out: "never look before turning, always block the way, why can't they go on the pavement/cycle lanes..." same divide between cyclist and motorist, different country.


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## snorri (11 Aug 2012)

Prestwick said:


> , with no safety or fluorescent gear


Good to hear they're getting something right..


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