# Idiots stopping in ASL boxes.



## Racing roadkill (3 Jun 2020)

Bike cameras are fun.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZbVLTcfE10&feature=youtu.be


I caught this complete bellend on camera yesterday. Not only stopped in an ASL bike box, but his number plate’s illegal too.
people putting their cars in the ASL box is one of my biggest bug bears.


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## glasgowcyclist (3 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> people putting their cars in the ASL box is one of my biggest bug bears



Mine too but unless I saw how he got there I can’t be sure he did so illegally.
It’s the ones who pull right alongside you in the ASL at a red light that tick me right off.


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## si_c (3 Jun 2020)

It's not necessarily a problem, if the light changes and he doesn't have time to stop before the first line he's perfectly entitled to stop before the second line.


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## Racing roadkill (3 Jun 2020)

si_c said:


> It's not necessarily a problem, if the light changes and he doesn't have time to stop before the first line he's perfectly entitled to stop before the second line.


 He had plenty of time to stop.
There was no good reason for it. I was recording from a fair way back.


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## Phaeton (3 Jun 2020)




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## Racing roadkill (3 Jun 2020)

His number plate’s still dodgy anyway.


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## Milkfloat (3 Jun 2020)

The evidence you have produced only shows you breaking the law.


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## I like Skol (3 Jun 2020)

Milkfloat said:


> The evidence you have produced only shows you breaking the law.


Yeah, funny how that works isn't it. Driver crosses the stop line, outrageous. Cyclist does the same but that must be ok then?


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## Bianchi boy (3 Jun 2020)




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## Bianchi boy (3 Jun 2020)

Is it possible the lights had just changed, as he pulls up


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## Brandane (3 Jun 2020)

Some people just don't know when to stop. Metaphorically AND literally.


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## I like Skol (3 Jun 2020)

Car at the front was indicating to turn right. If I arrived in that situation I would assume they had been waiting behind other right turning vehicles and when the lights changed the other cars turned and the 'offender' had correctly remained where they were, behind the ASL for the next traffic light sequence. Nothing to see here, move along.....


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## Racing roadkill (3 Jun 2020)

Bianchi boy said:


> Is it possible the lights had just changed, as he pulls up


Exactly that. Hence the reason I stopped, and looked around.


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## Racing roadkill (3 Jun 2020)

Milkfloat said:


> The evidence you have produced only shows you breaking the law.


Oh really. The light changed about a second after I stopped and put my foot down, so how is that showing me “breaking the law” then?


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## Racing roadkill (3 Jun 2020)

I like Skol said:


> Car at the front was indicating to turn right. If I arrived in that situation I would assume they had been waiting behind other right turning vehicles and when the lights changed the other cars turned and the 'offender' had correctly remained where they were, behind the ASL for the next traffic light sequence. Nothing to see here, move along.....


I was watching from a fair way back, that’s not what happened. He chose to move into the box, for no good reason.


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## Racing roadkill (3 Jun 2020)

Brandane said:


> Some people just don't know when to stop. Metaphorically AND literally.


My irony detector just exploded.


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## Inertia (3 Jun 2020)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unreliable_narrator


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## Racing roadkill (3 Jun 2020)

I like Skol said:


> Yeah, funny how that works isn't it. Driver crosses the stop line, outrageous. Cyclist does the same but that must be ok then?


Only problem being is that I did no such thing.






As you can see ( top middle right of frame) the light is green as I move off. It changed literally as I put my foot down to stop alongside the car in the box.


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## Racing roadkill (3 Jun 2020)

Inertia said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unreliable_narrator


There is smoke coming from my replacement Irony detector.


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## Phaeton (3 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> Only problem being is that I did no such thing.


Car is stopped on the white line






You are now in front of the car, but at least now you are looking around.


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## Racing roadkill (3 Jun 2020)

Phaeton said:


> Car is stopped on the white line
> 
> View attachment 527292
> 
> ...


I had to position with my rear wheel just inside the box ( behind the line ) because I needed the ( illegally) positioned driver to see I was there. My rear wheel was still behind the line.


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## MontyVeda (3 Jun 2020)

It annoys the feck out of me when drivers stop in the ASL... especially when I'm in the passenger seat!


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## Twilkes (3 Jun 2020)

Oh man that felt good.


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## I like Skol (3 Jun 2020)

Phaeton said:


> Car is stopped on the white line
> 
> View attachment 527292
> 
> ...


It's actually more damning than that! At around 10s you can actually see RR looking back and the car's grill is in shot, as well as possibly the corner of the ASL (it would be much clearer if I wasn't squinting at my smartphone screen). I find it hard to make that image align with the claim that rear wheel was on or behind the ASL line, not that this remotely makes matters any more legal.
If it was so important for my safety to be visible to a driver I would have stopped at the rear corner of the front vehicle and made sure that the 2nd vehicle driver was aware of my presence.


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## Salty seadog (3 Jun 2020)

I find it's usually cyclists. Nobbers.


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## Brandane (3 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> My rear wheel was still behind the line.


Ahhh well; that's ok then! I hope lorry drivers don't start to use the same logic when it comes to stopping at stop lines.


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## vickster (3 Jun 2020)

Shouldn’t the thread title be idiots stopping in front of ASLs


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## Drago (3 Jun 2020)

Milkfloat said:


> The evidence you have produced only shows you breaking the law.



View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L397TWLwrUU


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## Racing roadkill (3 Jun 2020)

I like Skol said:


> It's actually more damning than that! At around 10s you can actually see RR looking back and the car's grill is in shot, as well as possibly the corner of the ASL (it would be much clearer if I wasn't squinting at my smartphone screen). I find it hard to make that image align with the claim that rear wheel was on or behind the ASL line, not that this remotely makes matters any more legal.
> If it was so important for my safety to be visible to a driver I would have stopped at the rear corner of the front vehicle and made sure that the 2nd vehicle driver was aware of my presence.


Christ almighty, this is supposed to be a cycle site certain posters ( the same ones) are clearly not cyclists.


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## fossyant (3 Jun 2020)

Very few drivers know what the ASL is anyway, so it's a bit of a non-story. Not worth going to the waste of time editing a video and posting it. Can we have something more exciting, like you blasting down a hill at 50-60mph on your new steed ?


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## Racing roadkill (3 Jun 2020)

Drago said:


> View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L397TWLwrUU



I love that song.


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## Inertia (3 Jun 2020)

fossyant said:


> Very few drivers know what the ASL is anyway, so it's a bit of a non-story. Not worth going to the waste of time editing a video and posting it. Can we have something more exciting, like you blasting down a hill at 50-60mph on your new steed ?


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## Racing roadkill (3 Jun 2020)

fossyant said:


> Very few drivers know what the ASL is anyway, so it's a bit of a non-story. Not worth going to the waste of time editing a video and posting it. Can we have something more exciting, like you blasting down a hill at 50-60mph on your new steed ?


You could have, but it will be a cold day in hell before I take any unnecessary risks on that bike


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## Racing roadkill (3 Jun 2020)

Brandane said:


> Ahhh well; that's ok then! I hope lorry drivers don't start to use the same logic when it comes to stopping at stop lines.


If the car hadn’t had been in the box designed to give me ( the cyclist ) ‘get away‘ space, I wouldn’t have had to shuffle so far forward. If a lorry did what the car did, I’d have had to stop halfway up the road


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## fossyant (3 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> You could have, but it will be a cold day in hell before I take any unnecessary risks on that bike



Boring ! Come on 50's not that fast !


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## Racing roadkill (3 Jun 2020)

fossyant said:


> Boring ! Come on 50's not that fast !


It is when the rig cost 12 grand, and I had to buy it with my own money.


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## fossyant (3 Jun 2020)

I should have taken my camera at weekend - we had a howler of a descent over massive rocks - the sound of rocks hitting the frame would have made you cry (nearly did my when I found a big chunk of paint missing).


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## derrick (3 Jun 2020)

si_c said:


> It's not necessarily a problem, if the light changes and he doesn't have time to stop before the first line he's perfectly entitled to stop before the second line.


If he can't stop in time he must be going to fast, But hey ho that's ok.


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## fossyant (3 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> It is when the rig cost 12 grand, and I had to buy it with my own money.



Pah. I used to do 60 mph on my handbuilt Columbus SLX and Dura Ace - probably a similar price in inflation terms since 1990, and I couldn't go out and get a replacement frame as it was a one off. 


PS I might have been young and stupid then.


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## winjim (3 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> If the car hadn’t had been in the box designed to give me ( the cyclist ) ‘get away‘ space, I wouldn’t have had to shuffle so far forward. If a lorry did what the car did, I’d have had to stop halfway up the road


The bigger boys made you do it?


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## Racing roadkill (3 Jun 2020)

fossyant said:


> Pah. I used to do 60 mph on my handbuilt Columbus SLX and Dura Ace - probably a similar price in inflation terms since 1990, and I couldn't go out and get a replacement frame as it was a one off.
> 
> 
> PS I might have been young and stupid then.


There’s a candidate road on a route I ride quite often, and if I took leave of my senses, I could launch the Bianchi down that, but I really don’t fancy explaining that to the insurance company if it went wrong.


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## classic33 (3 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> It is when the rig cost 12 grand, and I had to buy it with my own money.


50mph remains the same regardless of what the cycle cost.


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## Racing roadkill (3 Jun 2020)

classic33 said:


> 50mph remains the same regardless of what the cycle cost.


yes it does, the ability to allow oneself to push it, diminishes exponentially with the increase in price though.


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## fossyant (3 Jun 2020)

classic33 said:


> 50mph remains the same regardless of what the cycle cost.



Unfortunately, the bill is bigger if/when the rider stacks it.


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## fossyant (3 Jun 2020)

PS and age usually


fossyant said:


> Unfortunately, the bill is bigger if/when the rider stacks it.



And RR might cry.... lots !


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## Ming the Merciless (3 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> I had to position with my rear wheel just inside the box ( behind the line ) because I needed the ( illegally) positioned driver to see I was there. My rear wheel was still behind the line.



That’s like the excuse where a driver crosses double white lines and then says only two wheels were over the line. Doesn’t matter, they crossed the double white line. You went through the stop line for cyclists when the light was on red.


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## furball (3 Jun 2020)

The road markings are so worn it isn't clear that is an ASL.


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## carlosfandangus (3 Jun 2020)

Just


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## Ming the Merciless (3 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> It is when the rig cost 12 grand, and I had to buy it with my own money.



Are you saying your rig isn’t capable of 60 mph without becoming unstable?


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## Ming the Merciless (3 Jun 2020)

That aside I do dislike motorised vehicles in the ASL. But that one is worn and not obvious from video. That could possibly be argued in court.


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## carlosfandangus (3 Jun 2020)

I do too, Last year I had to educate a driver, very politely as the lights were red on the correct use of ASL's They just didn't know!!!


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## Racing roadkill (3 Jun 2020)

furball said:


> The road markings are so worn it isn't clear that is an ASL.


It’s not in great condition, but the big painted bike is still quite clear.


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## Racing roadkill (3 Jun 2020)

YukonBoy said:


> Are you saying your rig isn’t capable of 60 mph without becoming unstable?


It probably is, I’m not willing to test the theory out.


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## Racing roadkill (3 Jun 2020)

YukonBoy said:


> That’s like the excuse where a driver crosses double white lines and then says only two wheels were over the line. Doesn’t matter, they crossed the double white line. You went through the stop line for cyclists when the light was on red.








If you look at the top middle of the frame, you can see the light is on green as I reach the line, I didn’t cross on red. It was changing as I approached, it was on green as I passed the line.


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## I like Skol (3 Jun 2020)

I like Skol said:


> It's actually more damning than that! At around 10s you can actually see RR looking back and the car's grill is in shot, as well as possibly the corner of the ASL (it would be much clearer if I wasn't squinting at my smartphone screen). I find it hard to make that image align with the claim that rear wheel was on or behind the ASL line, not that this remotely makes matters any more legal.
> If it was so important for my safety to be visible to a driver I would have stopped at the rear corner of the front vehicle and made sure that the 2nd vehicle driver was aware of my presence.





Racing roadkill said:


> Christ almighty, this is supposed to be a cycle site certain posters ( the same ones) are clearly not cyclists.


Ok, this will possibly be my last reply to this thread because I can see it is heading in the same pointless direction as the others.
Which part of my post did you disagree with or makes you decide I am clearly a non-cyclist?
I stand by my assertion that you illegally crossed the stop line and IMO you fully crossed the line with both wheels. At this point you lost any moral high ground you may have had if you were in fact correct in your claim that the driver moved into the ASL box after the lights had turned red purely to gain position.
I also stand by my safety advice that it would be better to stop behind the front vehicle (or even further back in the queue) at a point where you could be clearly seen by the driver of the vehicle alongside/behind you. Your mgif attitude led you to break the law and possibly put yourself in danger.
Just for the record, I am a regular road user and cyclist. I am confident, competent, assertive and ride defensively. You have posted more 'incidents' in just one week than I experience in a month of cycling around Manchester. My experience and common sense allows me to see where you are making some terrible mistakes, missing obvious dangers and making bad judgements, but all the while blaming others and spouting bad advice.
PLEASE STOP. Put your camera away or keep the footage purely for personal use. I dare say if you don't calm down you may end up in a roadrage altercation that ends in violence. Perhaps the footage may be useful then to allow the police to prosecute the aggressor correctly....


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## Racing roadkill (3 Jun 2020)

I like Skol said:


> Ok, this will possibly be my last reply to this thread because I can see it is heading in the same pointless direction as the others.
> Which part of my post did you disagree with or makes you decide I am clearly a non-cyclist?
> I stand by my assertion that you illegally crossed the stop line and IMO you fully crossed the line with both wheels. At this point you lost any moral high ground you may have had if you were in fact correct in your claim that the driver moved into the ASL box after the lights had turned red purely to gain position.
> I also stand by my safety advice that it would be better to stop behind the front vehicle (or even further back in the queue) at a point where you could be clearly seen by the driver of the vehicle alongside/behind you. Your mgif attitude led you to break the law and possibly put yourself in danger.
> ...







as you can no doubt see, the light was green as I crossed the line, so no “law breaking “ happened, green means proceed, that’s what made me question. Most of what you posted there is garbage, it’s you that needs to stop. Stop posting such garbage.


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## neil_merseyside (3 Jun 2020)

When your in a hole stop digging, I don't think anyone is impressed - not by your super duper bike, nor by your lack of judgement, and the patent lack of skill/common sense on the shared use path, or the feeble attempts to justify yourself. 
(Back wheel inside box, really? One frame of green! I mean come on, that's a moton's justification).


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## Phaeton (3 Jun 2020)

Nice try, which suggests you know you're in the wrong but won't admit, but on these two you are already past the white line,

You can just see the Red, it's actually clearer on the screen over the screenshot





At this point it's gone to Amber but your way is not clear so you still can't cross the line that you've already crossed


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## rogerzilla (3 Jun 2020)

Well, that escalated quickly.


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## dodgy (3 Jun 2020)

Can't believe nobody mentioned the voice over sounded like a train spotter seeing a rare Deltic at Crew Station


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## classic33 (3 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> View attachment 527311
> 
> as you can no doubt see, the light was green as I crossed the line, so no “law breaking “ happened, *green means proceed, *that’s what made me question. Most of what you posted there is garbage, it’s you that needs to stop. Stop posting such garbage.


Incorrect/wrong, it means you may go if the way is clear, not "proceed".


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## Racing roadkill (3 Jun 2020)

classic33 said:


> Incorrect/wrong, it means you may go if the way is clear, not "proceed".


The way was clear, so Im not “incorrect / wrong”.


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## Brandane (3 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> Stop posting such garbage.


How's that irony meter now?


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## Racing roadkill (3 Jun 2020)

dodgy said:


> Crew Station


Is that anywhere near Crewe station?


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## dodgy (3 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> Is that anywhere near Crewe station?



Same place, do you know it?


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## classic33 (3 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> The way was clear, so Im not “incorrect / wrong”.


What you posted was wrong.


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## I like Skol (3 Jun 2020)

You know what, I don't really need to say anymore. We've seen the vid and the evidence is there for all to see if you did or did not pass the stop line while the light was red. Ask the audience whether you did or did not if you don't accept my opinion of the facts.

In the meantime....







I really DGAF!

I've had a great day. I've ridden my bike, which was very enjoyable and incident free. I've had a nice dinner. I walked into town and helped an old lady pick up her wheeled shopping basket which had fallen flat on the floor. Now I am going to watch the second installment of Lord of The Rings with my kids. My life is great.

You are right, what ever you are saying is correct. Have fun, fill your boots, knock yourself out.....


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## Racing roadkill (3 Jun 2020)

classic33 said:


> What you posted was wrong.


No it wasn’t, in the case of what happened it was correct, I didn’t say it was universal.


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## classic33 (3 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> green means proceed,


Is incorrect.


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## Racing roadkill (3 Jun 2020)

I like Skol said:


> You know what, I don't really need to say anymore. We've seen the vid and the evidence is there for all to see if you did or did not pass the stop line while the light was red.








Yes, as you can clearly see I didn’t pass the line on red.


I like Skol said:


> Ask the audience whether you did or did not if you don't accept my opinion of the facts.


what can’t speak can’t lie.







I like Skol said:


> In the meantime....
> 
> View attachment 527330
> 
> ...


good, because as you can see, I didn’t pass the line on red.







I like Skol said:


> I've had a great day. I've ridden my bike, which was very enjoyable and incident free. I've had a nice dinner. I walked into town and helped an old lady pick up her wheeled shopping basket which had fallen flat on the floor. Now I am going to watch the second installment of Lord of The Rings with my kids. My life is great.


Good for you.


I like Skol said:


> You are right, what ever you are saying is correct. Have fun, fill your boots, knock yourself out.....


Well at least the penny finally dropped.


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## Racing roadkill (3 Jun 2020)

classic33 said:


> Is incorrect.


In the case in point, it isn’t incorrect because the way is clear. I didn’t say it was a universally applied thing.


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## vickster (3 Jun 2020)

dodgy said:


> Can't believe nobody mentioned the voice over sounded like a train spotter seeing a rare Deltic at Crew Station


Only even more dorky


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## Twilkes (3 Jun 2020)

OP seems to have similar problems on another forum too:









The first person I've marked as 'ignore' on a web forum in 25 years.


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## classic33 (3 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> In the case in point, it isn’t incorrect because the way is clear. I didn’t say it was a universally applied thing.


A green light, on a set of traffic lights does not mean proceed, which is what you think it means. 

It hasn't meant that since the three light system replaced the two light system.


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## winjim (3 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> View attachment 527333
> 
> 
> Yes, as you can clearly see I didn’t pass the line on red.
> ...


You know that green comes after red, right? So evidence that you were across the line on green is not evidence that you were not across the line on red.


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## dodgy (3 Jun 2020)

Hang on a minute everyone, his bike is expensive, surely he must be right?


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## Rusty Nails (3 Jun 2020)

Some interesting quotes from Marcus Aurelius:

_You have power over your mind - not outside events. ..._
_“Dwell on the beauty of life. ..._
_“The happiness of your life depends upon the quality of your thoughts.” ..._
_“Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. ..._
_“Waste no more time arguing about what a good man should be_.
Food for thought there.


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## MarkF (3 Jun 2020)

Oh well............I agree with an earlier poster, I don't think 90%+ of drivers know what the boxes are. Doesn't stop me when I am in a giddy mood though, I like to do a theatrical swirl around and a stop in front of the car (not bus/truck), then reverse back. It's like eliciting a nod from a fellow cyclist but then not reciprocating, little things, enormous pleasure.


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## Racing roadkill (3 Jun 2020)

winjim said:


> You know that green comes after red, right? So evidence that you were across the line on green is not evidence that you were not across the line on red.


Obviously you’ve not watched the video. The lights go from red, to amber and red, then green. Green does not come straight after red. As you should be able to work out, if the light was green when I looked up, the red and amber phase was lit as I came to a stop and looked down, so I knew that the green was going to be lit, by the time I crossed the line, which it was, which is all that matters. It’s not hard to understand. It’s called anticipation, and timing.


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## Racing roadkill (3 Jun 2020)

MarkF said:


> Oh well............I agree with an earlier poster, I don't think 90%+ of drivers know what the boxes are. Doesn't stop me when I am in a giddy mood though, I like to do a theatrical swirl around and a stop in front of the car (not bus/truck), then reverse back. It's like eliciting a nod from a fellow cyclist but then not reciprocating, litle things, enormous pleasure.


Ignorance of the facts of the ASL rules is common, but no excuse.


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## Racing roadkill (3 Jun 2020)

dodgy said:


> Hang on a minute everyone, his bike is expensive, surely he must be right?


What the flying fig has the cost of the bike got to do with anything? I am right, no matter the cost of the bike.


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## newts (3 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> Obviously you’ve not watched the video. The lights go from red, to amber and red, then green. As you should be able to work out, if the light was green when I looked up, the red and amber phase was lit as I came to a stop and looked down, so I knew that the green was going to be lit, by the time I crossed the line, which it was, which is all that matters. It’s not hard to understand.




Evidence that you were over the line on red?
At this point your back wheel would have been over the stop line!


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## Racing roadkill (3 Jun 2020)

dodgy said:


> Same place, do you know it?


I do know the difference between Crew and Crewe, because I’m not illiterate.


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## Racing roadkill (3 Jun 2020)

newts said:


> View attachment 527340
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And the lights were already on amber and red, and therefore I anticipated and timed my move perfectly, as to cross the line on green.




As you can clearly see, because I was turning left here.


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## newts (3 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> And the lights were already on amber and red, and therefore I anticipated and timed my move perfectly, as to cross the line on green.
> View attachment 527342
> 
> As you can clearly see, because I was turning left here.


Utter bollocks, my previous picture clearly shows the light on red & the white line behind you


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## newfhouse (3 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> I caught this complete bellend on camera yesterday.


Yes, it appears so.


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## Racing roadkill (3 Jun 2020)

newts said:


> View attachment 527340
> 
> 
> 
> ...





newts said:


> Utter bollocks, my previous picture clearly shows the light on red & the white line behind you


no it doesn’t . My lid is where the camera is, it’s way in front of the rear wheel. I had my foot down, pushing towards the line, to make sure the driver in the box had spotted me, which I wouldn’t have needed to, if he hadn’t been in the box.


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## Racing roadkill (3 Jun 2020)

newfhouse said:


> Yes, it appears so.


Is that you trying to be clever? You failed.


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## snorri (3 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> Bike cameras are fun.


If your camera puts you in fun mood, I hate to think what you'd be like without it.


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## classic33 (3 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> And the lights were already on amber and red, and therefore I anticipated and timed my move perfectly, as to cross the line on green.
> View attachment 527342
> 
> As you can clearly see, because I was turning left here.


Why did you stop on green though.
You stopped, so you've said, with your rear wheel behind the line.

But you arrived at the lights with perfect timing, allowing you to not have to stop.


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## newts (3 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> no it doesn’t . My lid is where the camera is, it’s way in front of the rear wheel. I had my foot down, pushing towards the line, to make sure the driver in the box had spotted me, which I wouldn’t have needed to, if he hadn’t been in the box.


Even if your head is over the front axle (i suspect it's in its normal posterior position), your back wheel is still over the line


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## Origamist (3 Jun 2020)

This thread reminds me of 'The Hunting of the Snark (An Agony in 8 Fits)' - unalloyed nonsense with a hidden meaning that continues to escape me...

His intimate friends called him "Candle-ends,"

⁠And his enemies "Toasted-cheese."


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## Racing roadkill (3 Jun 2020)

As you can see, I timed my move perfectly. This is where I looked up, clocked the light phase ( amber and red) . Then I started to move just as the light went to green.


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## dodgy (3 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> I do know the difference between Crew and Crewe, because I’m not illiterate.


Lol adenoidal boy. ‘Ysl’ 😂🤔


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## Racing roadkill (3 Jun 2020)

newts said:


> Even if your head is over the front axle (i suspect it's in its normal posterior position), your back wheel is still over the line


You’re wrong, it really wasn’t.


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## dodgy (3 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> What the flying fig has the cost of the bike got to do with anything? I am right, no matter the cost of the bike.


Because it’s funny and I like to take the piss out of easy targets.

i wonder if camera cyclists get into more conflicts than non cammers. Seems that way.


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## Slick (3 Jun 2020)

Not that anyone cares at this point but Asl invaders are a total pain in the erse and I am quite convinced almost nobody knows how to use them. 

How many times have you been asked by a driving non cyclist why should cyclists get to the front of the que only for all the card to have to go to the huge hassle of overtaking again?


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## Dave Davenport (3 Jun 2020)

I've got to admit, that in the past I've taken issue with RR and on occasion had a bit of a dig, but I honestly think he's got a problem of some sort and wonder if it wouldn't be best if everyone just chuckled and ignored it when he posts daft stuff like this, it's not like he's ever going to take any notice of a differing opinion.


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## dodgy (3 Jun 2020)

Being serious for a bit, there is no doubt misunderstanding of what YSLs ASLs are for. I see cars moving into them often [not because of heavy traffic].


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## Racing roadkill (3 Jun 2020)

classic33 said:


> Why did you stop on green though.
> You stopped, so you've said, with your rear wheel behind the line.


Ironically, to do a quick check for blatant RLJs from the sides ( it happens a lot ). It’s a momentary track stand type stop, I do it a lot at that junction.


classic33 said:


> But you arrived at the lights with perfect timing, allowing you to not have to stop.


It’s a track stand / pause rather than a full dismount (both feet down) stop.


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## Racing roadkill (3 Jun 2020)

dodgy said:


> Being serious for a bit, there is no doubt misunderstanding of what YSLs ASLs are for. I see cars moving into them often [not because of heavy traffic].


Quite right.


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## figbat (3 Jun 2020)

Please explain this. In the frame below we can see the car’s number plate, so your camera is in front of the car. Ergo your helmet and by extension your head is in front of the car. Assuming you ride a conventional (12 grand) bike in a conventional position this would put your front wheel some way further up the road, meaning that all of you and a good, if not total, portion of your bike is in front of the car. As we know, the car is stopped at the ASL (we can just see the corner of it by the car’s bumper), ergo you and your bike are past the ASL.

Oh, one final thing (channeling Columbo). Can you see what colour traffic light is lit?


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## winjim (4 Jun 2020)

I don't know why we're even arguing. The fact is he's admitted it.


Racing roadkill said:


> I had to position with my rear wheel just inside the box ( behind the line ) because I needed the ( illegally) positioned driver to see I was there. My rear wheel was still behind the line.






And in the same way that


Racing roadkill said:


> Ignorance of the facts of the ASL rules is common, but no excuse.


One vehicle being allegedly illegally positioned is no excuse to take up an illegal position oneself. The position of the car was apparent from way back so there was no reason to get in front of it and op wasn't forced into that position.


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## Drago (4 Jun 2020)

The worst thing about ASL's is the access. In this case it's terrible, which makes speeding along the door zone (or the death zone in American parlance) a dicey proposition. To do so at that speed while staring steadfastly dead ahead is not something I'd recommend for anyone who wants to avoid an ambulance.


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## winjim (4 Jun 2020)

Drago said:


> The worst thing about ASL's is the access. In this case it's terrible, which makes speeding along the door zone (or the death zone in American parlance) a dicey proposition. To do so at that speed while staring steadfastly dead ahead is not something I'd recommend for anyone who wants to avoid an ambulance.


I tend to mainly ignore them. If I can filter down to the front and slot into one then so be it, but I don't make them a target or anything. Personally I don't really like being at the front and my usual spot is to slot in behind the first car, middle of the lane if I can, eye contact and a smile at the driver behind, signal if required. That way I can see the lights, I can observe the behaviour of the driver in front who may be distracted by the lights and goings-on at the junction, and I can control the driver behind me. It's how I feel safest.


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## Drago (4 Jun 2020)

Where the situation permits, behind the first vehicle is perfect. Text book, in fact.


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## GetFatty (4 Jun 2020)

I really don't like ASLs and think they should be removed. I aim to find a place in the traffic towards the front rather than be in an ASL at the front with 5 or 6 frustrated drivers behind me itching to get past


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## rogerzilla (4 Jun 2020)

Filtering on the left is often difficult and certainly at your own risk, so I don't really see the point of ASLs. I just sit in the queue unless it's really gridlocked.


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## Phaeton (4 Jun 2020)

GetFatty said:


> I really don't like ASLs and think they should be removed. I aim to find a place in the traffic towards the front rather than be in an ASL at the front with 5 or 6 frustrated drivers behind me itching to get past


I'm sorry but that is too much of a sensible suggestion you should hang your head in shame, we as entitled cyclists should be allowed to go straight to the front & hold up the vehicles behind as much as we can, after all we pay as much road tax as they do!


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## figbat (4 Jun 2020)

Phaeton said:


> ...we as entitled cyclists should be allowed to go straight to the front & hold up the vehicles behind as much as we can, after all we pay as much road tax as they do!


Not only that, but we entitled cyclists must be permitted to break the law in retaliation to any law breaking we observe by other road users. And we can always pull out the safety card when we so.


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## DaveReading (4 Jun 2020)

Slick said:


> How many times have you been asked by a driving non cyclist why should cyclists get to the front of the que only for all the cars to have to go to the huge hassle of overtaking again?



I've never been asked that by a driver.

But I've often asked myself that question.


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## Drago (4 Jun 2020)

When I get to the supermarket, bike helmet min hand, I immediately rush to the front of the queue instead of waiting my turn, as is my god given right as a cyclist. Hell, sometimes I even go past the till, simply because I'm a cyclist.


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## Moon bunny (4 Jun 2020)

newts said:


> ...(i suspect it's in its normal posterior position)


Does that mean up his ***?


----------



## carlosfandangus (4 Jun 2020)

We only have one AFAIK, its no wonder people don't know how to use one correctly, I was driving yesterday and a lady cyclist came to the front of the queue for the traffic lights (in the cycle lane) and proceeded to ride far to her left through all the detritus as people overtook her through the lights, they are there to let more vulnerable people cross the junction, just the other side of the lights the cycle lane starts again (now used as a queue for Mcdonalds!!!).
When I use the same junction on a bike, as @Drago says, hang back from the car in front if they are in the ASL, if they are not I go to the centre of the ASL and make sure I am seen by the driver behind me.


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## rogerzilla (4 Jun 2020)

An ASL pretty much guarantees you don't get to ride in clear space. If you go with the flow there are usually big gaps in the traffic.


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## carlosfandangus (4 Jun 2020)

TT is worse, foreign visitors ( sometimes UK too) use the cycle lane to filter on the left and then fill the ASL box with motorcycles!


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## Phaeton (4 Jun 2020)

They were once explained to me as the only way to turn right in the centre of a busy city I refute that, if you a confident rider you can make your own space without being too aggressive, but you have think about it before the junction & plan. which I think is difficult for some people.


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## dodgy (4 Jun 2020)

Phaeton said:


> I refute that, *if* you a confident rider you can make your own space without being too aggressive,



Well that's the problem isn't it? There are lots of would-be cyclists lacking confidence, that's why the narrative right now is to build infrastructure. You and me probably don't feel we need it, having been brought up in the school of hard knocks of UK cycling for the last x years 🤷‍♂️


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## carlosfandangus (4 Jun 2020)

I think you are right there, before I moved over to the Isle of man I used to ride to work through some busy town centres with lots of traffic and lights/junctions, riding in traffic became almost second nature, however we certainly have a lot more cyclists on the road at the moment who have not got the same experience with riding in traffic.
I must admit I recently had an off that was my fault entirely, near empty/quiet roads and I just took my eye off the ball so to speak, more traffic I may have been more aware


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## Phaeton (4 Jun 2020)

dodgy said:


> Well that's the problem isn't it? There are lots of would-be cyclists lacking confidence, that's why the narrative right now is to build infrastructure. You and me probably don't feel we need it, having been brought up in the school of hard knocks of UK cycling for the last x years 🤷‍♂️


But is it actually safer for them to go up the corridor of opening doors, then get to the end, do an immediate right across the front of queuing traffic all waiting at the green light grand prix & probably obvious to them, at a point when the lights could change at anytime. Then to have some impatient driver held up behind them out in no man's land.


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## dodgy (4 Jun 2020)

I doubt it is. Most novices I've seen lately, and there are a lot of them, seem to pull up the left of the road and become a pedestrian to cross over to where they were trying to get to then remount.


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## figbat (4 Jun 2020)

Is this a back-down?


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## glasgowcyclist (4 Jun 2020)

Have you removed the video now because your story has been picked apart?


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## Racing roadkill (4 Jun 2020)

figbat said:


> Please explain this. In the frame below we can see the car’s number plate, so your camera is in front of the car. Ergo your helmet and by extension your head is in front of the car. Assuming you ride a conventional (12 grand) bike in a conventional position this would put your front wheel some way further up the road, meaning that all of you and a good, if not total, portion of your bike is in front of the car. As we know, the car is stopped at the ASL (we can just see the corner of it by the car’s bumper), ergo you and your bike are past the ASL.
> 
> Oh, one final thing (channeling Columbo). Can you see what colour traffic light is lit?
> 
> View attachment 527360


Well you’ve made loads of incorrect assumptions there. This was my old Hybrid for starters. You also clearly misunderstand false perspective, caused by relative positioning of camera and subject, at the strange angle caused by my neck position to get the look at the driver, and the fact I’m some way to the side of the car. So far you’re wrong 2 times. I’m actually stopped on the line momentarily there, so you’re wrong 3 times now.




This is me in a track stand looking up ( stationary, with my back wheel on the line in a track stand) as you can see the lights are changing, “channeling my inner Columbo” can you see what colour the lights are?




and this is when I start moving ( to the left ) “channelling my Inner columbo” can you see what colour the light is?


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## Racing roadkill (4 Jun 2020)

figbat said:


> Is this a back-down?
> 
> View attachment 527383


No, it’s making space on my crappy free account.


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## glasgowcyclist (4 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> This is me in a track stand looking up ( stationary, with my back wheel on the line



So you do accept that you illegally crossed the stop line with the front of your vehicle while the light was red?


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## Drago (4 Jun 2020)

Is the false perspective also responsible for the apparent speed and lack of observation in the door zone?


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## Racing roadkill (4 Jun 2020)

Drago said:


> The worst thing about ASL's is the access. In this case it's terrible, which makes speeding along the door zone (or the death zone in American parlance) a dicey proposition. To do so at that speed while staring steadfastly dead ahead is not something I'd recommend for anyone who wants to avoid an ambulance.


You do have to keep your eyes peeled ( looking for indicators, and front wheel positions ) and listen to what the cars engines are doing. However, it’s better to give anyone who is looking in their mirrors, no doubt about your intentions, and to pass them quickly than to mince up the side slowly, and give them any doubt about it. It’s called being alert and assertive. But I do agree with your point about access to ASLs


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## Racing roadkill (4 Jun 2020)

Drago said:


> Is the false perspective also responsible for the apparent speed and lack of observation in the door zone?


My eyes are moving, I don’t need to move my head to look at what I need to be looking at.


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## I like Skol (4 Jun 2020)

I like Skol said:


> At around 10s you can actually see RR looking back and the car's grill is in shot, as well as possibly the corner of the ASL





figbat said:


> Please explain this. In the frame below we can see the car’s number plate, so your camera is in front of the car. Ergo your helmet and by extension your head is in front of the car. Assuming you ride a conventional (12 grand) bike in a conventional position this would put your front wheel some way further up the road, meaning that all of you and a good, if not total, portion of your bike is in front of the car. As we know, the car is stopped at the ASL (we can just see the corner of it by the car’s bumper), ergo you and your bike are past the ASL.
> 
> Oh, one final thing (channeling Columbo). Can you see what colour traffic light is lit?
> 
> View attachment 527360


Morning folks. Thanks @figbat for posting that clip from 10s I had referred to earlier in the thread. This is the inarguable evidence that despite all RRs delusional assertions and out of sequence, un-timemarked snips of pretty green lights, he had without doubt passed the stop line intentionally while the lights were red.
I am not holding my breath, but it would be jolly decent of RR if following his review of the footage he would come back and acknowledge that he had got the sequence of events mixed up and we were right.....

Unless, of course, he can post a picture of the light on green that includes the timemark and this is from before 10s?

EDIT: I see while I was typing RR has posted more meaningless pictures of traffic lights that exclude the timemark, and has also apparently deleted the video.


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## classic33 (4 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> My eyes are moving, I don’t need to move my head to look at what I need to be looking at.


How do you see what's behind you, and what way it intends to go, if you don't move your head?


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## figbat (4 Jun 2020)

glasgowcyclist said:


> So you do accept that you illegally crossed the stop line with the front of your vehicle while the light was red?


Yep. And now playing the "false perspective" defence. There is no false perspective. The only way to see the front of a car is to be in front of it. If you were on your hybrid this will have a more upright riding position than a drop-barred bike. At the point of the video I captured you are still moving, so there's no way your head will be above or in front of the front wheel. You have even admitted to being ahead of the line, working on some false belief that keeping your rear wheel on the line somehow makes it OK. It isn't.

You have vilified a driver for crossing their stop line, then you have done EXACTLY the same thing yourself. And you can't see the hypocrisy. You have also laid claim to some righteous need to be at the front, ahead of the lead car for the sake of being seen whereas many have pointed out that if you can't be safely seen by the lead car then don't go alongside it - stay behind it where you can monitor what they will do and the car behind them has a good view of you. Win all round. Yes, the car shouldn't be there but you work with what you have in front of you, not with what should be happening.


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## Racing roadkill (4 Jun 2020)

winjim said:


> I don't know why we're even arguing. The fact is he's admitted it.
> 
> View attachment 527369
> 
> ...


It’s a good job my position wasn’t illegal then wasn’t it?
For avoidance of doubt.




stopped in a track stand, rear wheel on the line, which I was forced into by the cars position in the ASL, in order to ensure the driver could see me.





as I moved and turned the left ( the light is green ).


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## glasgowcyclist (4 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> which I was forced into



You were not forced.


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## figbat (4 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> stopped in a track stand, rear wheel on the line, which I was forced into by the cars position in the ASL, in order to ensure the driver could see me.


No, you weren't "forced" to do anything. You chose to go to the front. You could see as you approached how the cars were positioned - there is no imperative to be at the front and certainly no excuse to run a red light just to be seen.


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## Racing roadkill (4 Jun 2020)

classic33 said:


> How do you see what's behind you, and what way it intends to go, if you don't move your head?


The chances anything is able to be a threat from behind, in that scenario is nill. I checked behind as I left the previous junction, there was nothing anywhere near enough, to have been in a position to cause me issues from behind as I approached the stationary cars.


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## I like Skol (4 Jun 2020)

Timemarks please.


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## classic33 (4 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> The chances anything is able to be a threat from behind, in that scenario is nill. I checked behind as I left the previous junction, there was nothing anywhere near enough, to have been in a position to cause me issues from behind as I approached the stationary cars.


The question wasn't just about this one situation. You've previously said that if you had to check behind, you'd need your head on a pivot. Most people have such a pivot, the neck.

An electric vehicle makes very little noise, almost silent in modern traffic situations. To rely on hearing alone to detect what other traffic is doing/intending doing is dangerous. Both senses should be used.


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## I like Skol (4 Jun 2020)

Any chance of pictures that include the time?


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## I like Skol (4 Jun 2020)

I predict that RR will now continue to crank up the level of abusivness (see above) to incite a name calling fight that results in this thread also being locked. He will then feel that he can walk away having 'won' and without having to answer the remaining awkward points that clearly disprove his version of events!


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## glasgowcyclist (4 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> I didn’t “ run a red”



You quite clearly did, both from the now-deleted video and your own words on your position.

Further training required.


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## Electric_Andy (4 Jun 2020)

Phaeton said:


> But is it actually safer for them to go up the corridor of opening doors, then get to the end, do an immediate right across the front of queuing traffic all waiting at the green light grand prix & probably obvious to them, at a point when the lights could change at anytime. Then to have some impatient driver held up behind them out in no man's land.


 This happened to me once. I was in the LH cycle lane, and needed to turn right at the lights, so I went into the ASL, checked the lights were red, and went across 2 lanes of traffic to get to the right. As I did so, the lights changed and I was then beeing beeped at for being in the way. I don't think ASLs offer any extra safety, and can even in my above example give you a false sense of security. The cars should not have gone if I was blocking their path, but very few drivers care about such small details when they've been held up for 2.5 seconds.


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## figbat (4 Jun 2020)

I am not colour blind - my RAF officer and aircrew selection results can confirm this (for the avoidance of doubt, I never went on to join the RAF, but I did pass all the physical and aptitude tests necessary to be a pilot, navigator or fighter controller).
I don't think I am thick - I have a scientific honours degree and work in a scientific and engineering capacity.
I am not trolling, I am dispassionately using the evidence at hand (provided by your own video and subsequent discussion) to make points based on observation.



Racing roadkill said:


> ( the light’s green ) so I didn’t “ run a red”


You did run a red. You keep posting heavily cropped images of traffics lights that remove the context of the video. The image I posted of your own video clearly shows that you are past the ASL and the light is still red. You admit that you positioned yourself ahead of the car and we can see that the car has stopped at the ASL. Ergo, you "ran a red light". You might not like that you did this, you might not have meant to do this, but the evidence clearly shows that you did this.



Racing roadkill said:


> If you think you don’t have to position yourself as I did, in that scenario, you clearly don’t have a clue about urban riding / riding in general, so I think all you post on this ‘cycle forum’ is completely invalidated.


I, and other correspondents here, do indeed think that you didn't have to position yourself like this. You didn't have to go to the front. You didn't have to run the red light. You could have held back, behind the lead car where you would be clear of its manoeuvres and also clearly visible to the 2nd car in the queue.

I am also unclear why making statements that you disagree with in one post means that everything I put in this forum is invalidated? Maybe those photos I posted of my bike _weren't_ in front of a church/thatch/memorial? Perhaps the false perspective fooled me?

I admit that I am not a frequent urban cyclist, but I am an urban driver, motorcyclist, occasional cyclist and pedestrian. I am also a keen follower of the laws and regulations that apply to these situations. Regardless of my experience in urban riding one thing is irrefutable: riding a bicycle past the ASL when the traffic light is red is an offence. You have provided evidence that clearly shows you committing this offence. You have then lambasted a driver for committing the very same offence. You have subsequently taken down the evidence whilst also selectively cropping frames to support your own belief - that you are always right and everybody else is wrong.

As an aside, I did find it slightly amusing that at first you accused the driver of violating a "YSL" - nice to see that Yves Saint Laurent is foremost in your mind when approaching a high risk situation.


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## newts (4 Jun 2020)

> newts said:
> ...(i suspect it's in its normal posterior position)





Moon bunny said:


> Does that mean up his ***?



I thought my childish attempt at sarcasm re the op's head position had been missed


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## Drago (4 Jun 2020)

If I came across someone violating Yve Saint Laurent in the middle of a junction I'd ruddy well be calling the police!


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## DaveReading (4 Jun 2020)

Electric_Andy said:


> I was in the LH cycle lane, and needed to turn right at the lights, so I went into the ASL, checked the lights were red, and went across 2 lanes of traffic to get to the right. As I did so, the lights changed and I was then beeing beeped at for being in the way.



Forgive the thread drift, but I thought it had been established that there is no rule saying that you have to enter the ASL via the marked channel on the left.

While I might well do that if I'm turning left, if my plan is to turn right I'll pass the queued cars on their RHS and enter the bike box from that side. Obviously there is still the risk that the lights will change just as you get there, but you can't avoid that, and if the worst comes to the worst, you can allow the vehicles to pass to your left if you haven't been able to position yourself in front of them in time.


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## Ming the Merciless (4 Jun 2020)

@Racing roadkill Why is the video not longer available?


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## classic33 (4 Jun 2020)

YukonBoy said:


> @Racing roadkill Why is the video not longer available?


The three of them are gone/been taken down.


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## AndyRM (4 Jun 2020)

classic33 said:


> The three of them are gone/been taken down.



To "save space" on YouTube. Which as far as I'm aware, is not a thing.

ETA - I checked, it isn't. On a free account you have a 20gb size limit per video (which none of these three non-events would have come close to), but you can upload as many as you like. This of course may change, but I doubt it.


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## winjim (4 Jun 2020)

DaveReading said:


> Forgive the thread drift, but I thought it had been established that there is no rule saying that you have to enter the ASL via the marked channel on the left.


It used to be that cyclists were required to use the filter lane but they changed it in 2016. Basically cyclists can just disregard the first stop line.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/14/part/1/paragraph/30/made


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## steve292 (4 Jun 2020)

This is fun.


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## Drago (5 Jun 2020)

Has Racy Roadkill ever visited Paris...?


View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8AgzZd8Lr64


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## Phaeton (5 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> This is me in a track stand looking up ( stationary, with my *back wheel on the line* in a track stand)


I've snipped all the other irrelevant stuff, but this bit is interesting, so you are now admitting that your BACK wheel is on the line, so unless you turned your bike around & was facing the other way of which we didn't see in the removed video, it then stands to reason that your front wheel, your handlebars, your crank, your pedals & basically YOU are now forward of the line, is that a fair comment?


----------



## Slick (5 Jun 2020)

Drago said:


> Has Racy Roadkill ever visited Paris...?
> 
> 
> View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8AgzZd8Lr64



Why would you?


----------



## figbat (5 Jun 2020)

Now it seems that certain posts are being deleted from this thread, rendering some of the replies apparently redundant.


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## newts (5 Jun 2020)

Drago said:


> Has Racy Roadkill ever visited Paris...?
> 
> 
> View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8AgzZd8Lr64



I think it's the same person who drove our taxi back to CDG airport in February , although the bike is a good bit slower🤪


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## winjim (5 Jun 2020)

Phaeton said:


> I've snipped all the other irrelevant stuff, but this bit is interesting, so you are now admitting that your BACK wheel is on the line, so unless you turned your bike around & was facing the other way of which we didn't see in the removed video, it then stands to reason that your front wheel, your handlebars, your crank, your pedals & basically YOU are now forward of the line, is that a fair comment?


Behind the line or on it? 



Racing roadkill said:


> I had to position with my rear wheel just inside the box ( behind the line ) because I needed the ( illegally) positioned driver to see I was there. My rear wheel was still behind the line.



I know that sounds like splitting hairs, but if one can't be absolutely sure of the position of the bike then it's at least plausible that the rear wheel, and therefore the entire bike, was actually in front of the stop line. It doesn't matter really as 'the offence is committed when any part of the vehicle crosses the line', but still...


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## gavroche (5 Jun 2020)

Drago said:


> Has Racy Roadkill ever visited Paris...?
> 
> 
> View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8AgzZd8Lr64



I don't think he will live to see his pension. 
When I drive in Paris ( which I try not to these days) motorcycles and scooters are a worry as they will pass you from any angle. On the other hand, driving in Paris does sharpen your driving skills.


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## glasgowcyclist (5 Jun 2020)

figbat said:


> Now it seems that certain posts are being deleted from this thread, rendering some of the replies apparently redundant.


By mods or the OP?


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## classic33 (5 Jun 2020)

glasgowcyclist said:


> By mods or the OP?


OP may have deleted one of his rendering replies to it useless, referencing a now deleted post. But he can't delete other peoples posts


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## Phil Fouracre (5 Jun 2020)

Noooo! Not another one!! I’ve only just seen this, and it’s got to eleven pages already. Isn’t it bad enough that we’ve got a pandemic? We don’t need this as well🙈🙈🙈😂😂😂


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## Gunk (5 Jun 2020)

Drago said:


> Has Racy Roadkill ever visited Paris...?
> 
> 
> View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8AgzZd8Lr64




we were there last year and the Paris ring road is unreal, the scooter riders are just mental.


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## Dave Davenport (5 Jun 2020)

Cycling around the Arc de Triomphe is quite an experience, it's a right free for all.


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## Solocle (5 Jun 2020)

Oh, I'll go ahead of a vehicle at lights, be they sitting in the ASL or not. Even if it is technically illegal, but for added "pro", you position the bike at whatever oblique angle required to fit between the vehicle and the stop line.

If you're filtering down a queue on the offside you can't necessarily tell that the ASL is filled, and it's not necessarily safe to angle yourself into the queue. Well, it's safer to go to the front, even if it means going over the ASL.


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## figbat (5 Jun 2020)

Solocle said:


> Oh, I'll go ahead of a vehicle at lights, be they sitting in the ASL or not. Even if it is technically illegal, but for added "pro", you position the bike at whatever oblique angle required to fit between the vehicle and the stop line.
> 
> If you're filtering down a queue on the offside you can't necessarily tell that the ASL is filled, and it's not necessarily safe to angle yourself into the queue. Well, it's safer to go to the front, even if it means going over the ASL.


Fair enough. But at least you acknowledge that it is illegal rather than defending an indefensible position of righteousness. And the video in question was hardly central London.


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## Drago (6 Jun 2020)

It's not safer to go to the front. The safest position is behind the vehicle at the front.


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## jay clock (6 Jun 2020)

i have just enjoyed all 12 pages. I had never heard of @Racing roadkill until yesterday when I watched and rewatched the terrible conditions of his other ride. This ASL drama trumps that for fun

How do I tag a user so I can follow more avidly?


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## rogerzilla (6 Jun 2020)

Time passed. The planets wheeled in their orbits. Civilisations rose, fell and rose again. Humans broke their physical, earthly bonds and became spirit beings of pure energy, able to pass between dimensions and stare upon the face of God himself.

Then one of them tuned into CycleChat and this thread was still going.


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## Chromatic (6 Jun 2020)

rogerzilla said:


> Time passed. The planets wheeled in their orbits. Civilisations rose, fell and rose again. Humans broke their physical, earthly bonds and became spirit beings of pure energy, able to pass between dimensions and stare upon the face of God himself.



That rings a bell, what's it from?


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## Salar (6 Jun 2020)

*I’ve seen things you people wouldn’t believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like… tears in rain. Time to die.*

Cut, hold the set..........................I'm not going anywhere until I see the end of this thread.


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## rogerzilla (6 Jun 2020)

Chromatic said:


> That rings a bell, what's it from?


It's original, although a couple of the phrases are stock ones.


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## slowmotion (7 Jun 2020)

I'm completely indifferent to motorists entering the ASL box. Why should it bother me? It might contravene the Highway Code but they are unlikely to do me any harm.


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## Solocle (7 Jun 2020)

slowmotion said:


> I'm completely indifferent to motorists entering the ASL box. Why should it bother me? It might contravene the Highway Code but they are unlikely to do me any harm.


A motorist sat in an ASL alongside me put me under enough pressure to make a quick getaway from the lights that I went on red and amber - for the wrong direction (left only). Realized my mistake quickly enough, stopped before the turning traffic, and one of them let me pass. Then when the light turned green the initial vehicle drew alongside and berated me for jumping the light... I think the irony was lost on him.


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## Phaeton (7 Jun 2020)

Solocle said:


> A motorist sat in an ASL alongside me put me under enough pressure to make a quick getaway from the lights


How does a stationary car put you under pressure?


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## Poacher (7 Jun 2020)

Phaeton said:


> How does a stationary car put you under pressure?


Aggressive revving?


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## Phaeton (7 Jun 2020)

Poacher said:


> Aggressive revving?


Is that an Olympic event?


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## Solocle (7 Jun 2020)

Phaeton said:


> How does a stationary car put you under pressure?


Because I don't like being to the left of the traffic stream through a junction, even if there is a left turn lane.


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## JPBoothy (7 Jun 2020)

slowmotion said:


> I'm completely indifferent to motorists entering the ASL box. Why should it bother me? It might contravene the Highway Code but they are unlikely to do me any harm.


And the dodgy number plate is totally irrelevant unless they run over me and nobody can read it to enable them to make a note for the Police. 

I have mixed feelings about Camera's and recording your every journey. Yes they can provide valuable evidence to the police/insurance companies in the event of a serious incident but, if you watch the many Youtube clips there is an element of vehicle hating vigilantes out there just looking for trouble (I'm not suggesting that applies to the OP by the way). I'm sure that all of the motorists amongst us will admit to not being perfect and making the odd mistake occasionally (not indicating, wrong lane etc...) but, as long as you haven't injured anybody and acknowledge your mistake, then I'm sure that you will learn from it and are less likely to do it again. Perhaps the motorist should record the cyclists too, as there are a lot of idiots on two wheels doing some pretty stupid/dangerous things of their own. 

BUT, people who park on cycle lanes/paths


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## Phaeton (7 Jun 2020)

Solocle said:


> Because I don't like being to the left of the traffic stream through a junction, even if there is a left turn lane.


In that case don't go there, it's not compulsory, why would you put yourself in a position that is either unsafe or you feel unsafe?


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## Solocle (7 Jun 2020)

Phaeton said:


> In that case don't go there, it's not compulsory, why would you put yourself in a position that is either unsafe or you feel unsafe?


Because I was proceeding into an ASL, but the box was blocked by a  taxi. It's since then that I've taken up moving ahead of the foremost vehicle, never mind the ASL's physical location.


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## JPBoothy (7 Jun 2020)

Solocle said:


> Because I don't like being to the left of the traffic stream through a junction, even if there is a left turn lane.


As long as they can see you 'and have acknowledged that you are there' it shouldn't be a problem as many junctions still don't have ASL's.. Personally, I do not EVER position myself on inside of anything higher than me such as a bus/van/lorry regardless of their being a dedicated cycling lane or ASL as there has been many cyclists crushed/killed for doing so.


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## Phaeton (7 Jun 2020)

Solocle said:


> Because I was proceeding into an ASL, but the box was blocked by a  taxi. It's since then that I've taken up moving ahead of the foremost vehicle, never mind the ASL's physical location.


So you are prepared to break the law to prove a point? To what purpose, teach them a lesson?


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## MontyVeda (7 Jun 2020)

figbat said:


> Now it seems that certain posts are being deleted from this thread, rendering some of the replies apparently redundant.


The entire thread should be deleted. If I was the OP I'd have requested that when it got to page 2... just to save myself more embarrassment.


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## Phaeton (7 Jun 2020)

MontyVeda said:


> The entire thread should be deleted. If I was the OP I'd have requested that when it got to page 2... just to save myself more embarrassment.


Not if that was the purpose, although controversy rather than embasessment


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## Solocle (7 Jun 2020)

Phaeton said:


> So you are prepared to break the law to prove a point? To what purpose, teach them a lesson?


No, to avoid being caught to the side of the flow of traffic.

Preventing them from gaining advantage is just an added bonus!


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## Phaeton (7 Jun 2020)

Solocle said:


> No, to avoid being caught to the side of the flow of traffic.


But you are still prepared to break the law to prove you think you have the right?


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## Solocle (7 Jun 2020)

Phaeton said:


> But you are still prepared to break the law to prove you think you have the right?


I put safety before the law. I'm not getting pushed into the kerb because some incompetent, inconsiderate jerk is parked on the ASL.
ASLs exist for a safety reason. Getting to them can be risky, but I can judge that and deal with it (ready to merge into flow if it changes while I'm moving). I can deal with some moton parked on the ASL, but it might involve breaking the law (as a direct consequence of their breaking of the law). Mostly, though, I can just put the bike at an angle to obey the letter of the law. It means a slower getaway, so I wouldn't pull that where there's a front blind spot.


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## Phaeton (7 Jun 2020)

Solocle said:


> *I put safety before the law.* I'm not getting pushed into the kerb because some incompetent, inconsiderate jerk is parked on the ASL.
> ASLs exist for a safety reason. *Getting to them can be risky,* but I can judge that and deal with it (ready to merge into flow if it changes while I'm moving). I can deal with some moton parked on the ASL, but it might involve breaking the law (as a direct consequence of their breaking of the law). Mostly, though, I can just put the bike at an angle to obey the letter of the law. It means a slower getaway, so I wouldn't pull that where there's a front blind spot.


Okay I'm bugging out at this point, you are clearly another Racing Roadkill who knows better than everybody else, but just a last thought, on the bollocks you have just typed, "*I put safety before the law.*" and "*Getting to them can be risky*" do not go together, I also question that crossing the white line, positioning your bike in front of a car is the safe thing to do just because you believe you have the 'Right' on your side, because you don't. But anyway stay safe & enjoy your riding, for as long as you can, us law abiding cyclists will just pick up the flak for your selfishness.


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## I like Skol (7 Jun 2020)

Solocle said:


> I


You are Racing Roadkill AICMFP


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## Solocle (7 Jun 2020)

Phaeton said:


> Okay I'm bugging out at this point, you are clearly another Racing Roadkill who knows better than everybody else, but just a last thought, on the bollocks you have just typed, "*I put safety before the law.*" and "*Getting to them can be risky*" do not go together, I also question that crossing the white line, positioning your bike in front of a car is the safe thing to do just because you believe you have the 'Right' on your side, because you don't. But anyway stay safe & enjoy your riding, for as long as you can, us law abiding cyclists will just pick up the flak for your selfishness.


No conflict, I don't proceed to an ASL if it's risky to do so. I generally filter up the right, rather than the left, for that reason, and, if the light changes, I abandon the maneuver and merge back into the flow of traffic (something I'm pretty well practiced at).

But, in recognizing the fact that proceeding to an ASL can be risky, I don't just blindly use the cycle lane to get there, as would be legal. However it would be foolish if there was a 44 tonner there waiting to turn left.

Sitting at the back of the queue has its own risks, one of which is being crushed in a rear end collision. ASLs exist for a very good reason - it's safer for cyclists to be at the front and clear the junction first. Not get caught up in the traffic light grand prix, which is exactly what happens if you're stuck to the side of an idiot sat in an ASL. And it's not like you can easily tell that when you begin filtering, and, although I always have a return gap when filtering, it doesn't necessarily reestablish you as part of the traffic flow (much harder with a stationary gap, rather than the point where the front vehicle is starting to pull away). A good summary

Why risk getting caught to the side of vehicles proceeding through a junction when you can just nip ahead of it all. Safety takes precedence, always. I obey the law where it does not compromise my safety, which is most of the time. But, if there's a conflict, I will always choose safety.

Safety is of course relative. I think the safest course of action is to filter up towards the front at junctions with an ASL. If then confronted with a vehicle sat in the ASL, I think the safest course of action is to go and sit in front of them. It may not be risk free, but that's my assessment of the situation in Oxford.


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## winjim (7 Jun 2020)

Solocle said:


> I don't just blindly use the cycle lane to get there, as would be legal.


It's perfectly legal to enter the ASZ pretty much any which way you fancy. On a bike, at least. There's no requirement to use the filter lane.

I do agree that you absolutely have the right to prioritise your safety over the law, but I'm not sure that putting your bike at the front of a queue of traffic is necessarily doing that.


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## Phaeton (7 Jun 2020)

Solocle said:


> ASLs exist for a very good reason - it's safer for cyclists to be at the front and clear the junction first.


Sorry I did say I wouldn't comment again & I honestly won't as this is the fundamental difference on our opinion, how by allowing slow moving cyclists to be in front of vehicles to me is beyond comprehension. And HTF can a cylcist clear a junction before said impatient driver, they just swerve round them creating more danger


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## Solocle (7 Jun 2020)

winjim said:


> It's perfectly legal to enter the ASZ pretty much any which way you fancy. On a bike, at least. There's no requirement to use the filter lane.
> 
> I do agree that you absolutely have the right to prioritise your safety over the law, but I'm not sure that putting your bike at the front of a queue of traffic is necessarily doing that.


I'm more than happy to agree to disagree there 
I dare say it's something that varies according to where in the country you are. My assessment of that's primarily based on Oxford, which probably has better than normal awareness of cyclists.



Phaeton said:


> Sorry I did say I wouldn't comment again & I honestly won't as this is the fundamental difference on our opinion, how by allowing slow moving cyclists to be in front of vehicles to me is beyond comprehension. And HTF can a cylcist clear a junction before said impatient driver, they just swerve round them creating more danger


The core of my assessment is that you're through the junction while vehicles are still moving relatively slowly. If you're further back, there's more time for vehicles to pick up speed, which then makes holding primary through the junction more annoying to the impatient drivers.


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## roley poley (7 Jun 2020)

Hello solocle and welcome to cycle chat would you be kind enough and reply to the message by I like skol as his pint is going warm in my hand as I watch and I have a £5 bet on thank you


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## winjim (7 Jun 2020)

Solocle said:


> I'm more than happy to agree to disagree there
> I dare say it's something that varies according to where in the country you are. My assessment of that's primarily based on Oxford, which probably has better than normal awareness of cyclists.


I look at it on a junction by junction basis, taking into account local knowledge, density and type of traffic, junction layout etc. But my default position is one vehicle back.


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## Solocle (7 Jun 2020)

I like Skol said:


> You are Racing Roadkill AICMFP





roley poley said:


> Hello solocle and welcome to cycle chat would you be kind enough and reply to the message by I like skol as his pint is going warm in my hand as I watch and I have a £5 bet on thank you


Nah, RR's attitude is rather different, I think, and that last video of sod all...
I just rise above the basic bad driving and plonk myself ahead as if they'd "parked" properly!


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## classic33 (7 Jun 2020)

Solocle said:


> No conflict, I don't proceed to an ASL if it's risky to do so. I generally filter up the right, rather than the left, for that reason, and, if the light changes, I abandon the maneuver and merge back into the flow of traffic (something I'm pretty well practiced at).
> 
> But, in recognizing the fact that proceeding to an ASL can be risky, I don't just blindly use the cycle lane to get there, as would be legal. However it would be foolish *if there was a 44 tonner there waiting to turn left.*
> 
> ...


If s/he is intending turning left, they tend to be a bit further out to the right. To allow for the trailer.


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## Drago (7 Jun 2020)

Solocle said:


> I put safety before the law.


Just the opposite. By behaving outside of the law you are making it difficult for other road users to safely predict your actions, and thus endangering yourself.


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## Phaeton (7 Jun 2020)

I like Skol said:


> You are Racing Roadkill AICMFP


I would like to draw my learned friends attention to the post above theirs 


roley poley said:


> Hello solocle and welcome to cycle chat would you be kind enough and reply to the message by I like skol as his pint is going warm in my hand as I watch and I have a £5 bet on thank you


Is that not my pint what you are holding?


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## roley poley (7 Jun 2020)

oh yeah sorry about that I have a pint in both hands best give them both back I was absorbed by the spectacle my round after you have drunk them then lads


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## I like Skol (7 Jun 2020)

Phaeton said:


> would like to draw my learned friends attention to the post above theirs


We will have to agree to disagree 
You said he is LIKE RR. I reckon it really IS RR


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## Solocle (7 Jun 2020)

I like Skol said:


> We will have to agree to disagree
> You said he is LIKE RR. I reckon it really IS RR


I think you'll find RR lives in a different part of the country to me...

This is the A27 near Romsey - never been there in my life, a bit of Google sleuthing turned up the area.
GSV


Racing roadkill said:


> View attachment 523055
> 
> 
> I think that’s where the contact was, it must have been his door handle.


I'm a good 50 miles away.


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## winjim (7 Jun 2020)

I like Skol said:


> We will have to agree to disagree
> You said he is LIKE RR. I reckon it really IS RR



If that's the case then this is really off brand...



Solocle said:


> I'm more than happy to agree to disagree


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## JPBoothy (7 Jun 2020)

classic33 said:


> If s/he is intending turning left, they tend to be a bit further out to the right. To allow for the trailer.


Yes, firstly welcome to the forum @Solocle 

Be careful with that filtering up the right though as it could turn nasty if the vehicle that you are attempting to pass hasn't seen you and moves off 'if the lights suddenly change' before you reach the front. What's the rush?

As for a vehicle (and possibly trailer) turning left, I would never assume their intentions just from their positioning in the lane ("they tend to be further out") as they could have got their positioning wrong and also have forgotten to indicate. Breaking the law is never a good idea but, I will freely admit to having bunny hopped onto a pavement 'to avoid being crushed' because the vehicle passing me has suddenly swerved in after realising that there was traffic furniture that they hadn't seen. Yes, I could have 'possibly' hit and injured a pedestrian but, the alternative was that I 'probably' would have died otherwise.


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## Solocle (7 Jun 2020)

JPBoothy said:


> Yes, firstly welcome to the forum @Solocle
> 
> Be careful with that filtering up the right though as it could turn nasty if the vehicle that you are attempting to pass hasn't seen you and moves off 'if the lights suddenly change' before you reach the front. What's the rush?
> 
> As for a vehicle (and possibly trailer) turning left, I would never assume their intentions just from their positioning in the lane ("they tend to be further out") as they could have got their positioning wrong and also have forgotten to indicate. Breaking the law is never a good idea but, I will freely admit to having bunny hopped onto a pavement 'to avoid being crushed' because the vehicle passing me has suddenly swerved in after realising that there was traffic furniture that they hadn't seen. Yes, I could have 'possibly' hit and injured a pedestrian but, the alternative was that I 'probably' would have died otherwise.


Thanks!

Yeah, I'm always keeping an eye on the lights when filtering, or, if it's just a random queue, I look a fair bit ahead.
Once it starts moving, I'm identifying a gap, and timing my arrival so that I enter it just as the car ahead starts moving, so that it's growing, and I don't need to stop (unclipping). While also doing that slowly enough so that I'm visible.

And yep, hopping onto a pavement to avoid imminent death is a rather extreme example of breaking the law for the purpose of safety!


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## captain nemo1701 (10 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> Bike cameras are fun.
> 
> View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZbVLTcfE10&feature=youtu.be
> 
> ...




At the risk of annoying the motorbike community, I don't like bikers squeezing their way in deliberately, especially when they use the cycle lane to do this and they can stop way in advance of the line. I also don't buy the safety angle too. Whilst I recognise that bikers are just as vulnerable as we are, you're riding essentially a powerful engine on wheels capable of doing about 0-60 in a few seconds. Furthermore, they get ridden at 70mph or more on motorways, where you are at far greater risk.

Why then do bikers feel 'vulnerable' when faced with a_ stationary_ traffic jam so they ride down the cycle lane to access the box?. It's done for pure convenience. It just encourages other bikers and I have on a few occasions, not been able to get into the ASL due to...motorbikes!. Moped riders are by far the biggest offenders. What applies to a car also applies to mopeds/motorbikes.

BTW, your video appears to have gone.


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## Phaeton (10 Jun 2020)

captain nemo1701 said:


> At the risk of annoying the motorbike community,


Nope I don't think you will, as 'proper/real' motorcyclist wouldn't do that as there is no need, but as usual the idiots will & it's the usual answer, there's nobody out there to stop them so they do.


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## Drago (10 Jun 2020)

I dont think I'd risk trying to wrestle the bulk of my Max down such a lane. Aside from being tight for a bike of that physical size, the risk of being doored, squeezed, or left hooked into a side turning or driveway is just as valid for a motorised 2 wheeler as it is for a bicycle.


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## figbat (10 Jun 2020)

I'll filter to the front of a queue if there is sufficient space and a place to wait that is behind the line and out of the way - when the lights change I'll be gone long before any car will so everyone wins. I won't use a dedicated cycle lane nor will I use an ASL though. Nor will I filter on the left.


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## Randy Butternubs (10 Jun 2020)

captain nemo1701 said:


> At the risk of annoying the motorbike community, I don't like bikers squeezing their way in deliberately, especially when they use the cycle lane to do this and they can stop way in advance of the line. I also don't buy the safety angle too. Whilst I recognise that bikers are just as vulnerable as we are, you're riding essentially a powerful engine on wheels capable of doing about 0-60 in a few seconds. Furthermore, they get ridden at 70mph or more on motorways, where you are at far greater risk.
> 
> Why then do bikers feel 'vulnerable' when faced with a_ stationary_ traffic jam so they ride down the cycle lane to access the box?. It's done for pure convenience. It just encourages other bikers and I have on a few occasions, not been able to get into the ASL due to...motorbikes!. Moped riders are by far the biggest offenders. What applies to a car also applies to mopeds/motorbikes.
> 
> BTW, your video appears to have gone.



I'm not saying motorcyclists should use the ASLs or that you shouldn't be annoyed at them doing so, but you are wrong about the motivation. They use them for the exact same reasons as cyclists, they are vulnerable in the same way.

I'm not sure what having an engine or riding on the motorway have to do with it. It sounds a bit like the oft heard: "Cyclists squeeze through stationary traffic so why should I give them any space when overtaking?"

Getting rear-ended at stops is a big worry on a motorbike. I've even had someone drive into the side of me after we had both been stopped at lights for a few minutes, pinning my leg to the side of the bike. If he'd gone any further he would have crushed it. At junctions there is a strong desire to get somewhere cars can't easily hurt you but can easily see you.


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## rogerzilla (10 Jun 2020)

I suppose there's no point in riding a motorbike if you can't filter, assuming you bought it to beat traffic jams and not just to tear around the Peak District trying to incorporate yourself into the scenery.


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## figbat (10 Jun 2020)

rogerzilla said:


> I suppose there's no point in riding a motorbike if you can't filter, assuming you bought it to beat traffic jams and not just to tear around the Peak District trying to incorporate yourself into the scenery.


I wouldn't say there's "no point" - some motorcyclists don't feel the need or have the confidence to filter, yet they enjoy their bikes nonetheless. I generally filter because I can, not because I must. My bike is a hobby, as much as anything - filtering is one of the many pleasures it brings me.


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## Phaeton (10 Jun 2020)

rogerzilla said:


> I suppose there's no point in riding a motorbike if you can't filter, assuming you bought it to beat traffic jams and not just to tear around the Peak District trying to incorporate yourself into the scenery.


I think you will find that the intention is trying NOT to incorporate yourself into the scenery, do bikes still ride out there? Last time I went a few years ago it was pointless as everywhere the limit had been dropped to 50 making the whole process worthless.


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## icowden (10 Jun 2020)

The other thing that is irritating about motorcyclists driving up the cycle lane and into the ASL box is that at some junctions those boxes have an "early start" green light for cyclists, so these numpties block the cyclists from using the very measure that supposed to give them an additional bit of safety.

I use the ASL at Blackfriars bridge a lot when returning to Waterloo (I turn right onto the bridge then left down the festival hall road). I see the following behaviours which are all quite frankly irritating:

1) Motorcyclists / Moped drivers speeding up the cycle lane and parking themselves in the ASL box, thus blocking it for cyclists (it can be a busy box)
2) Moronic cyclists who go *over* the ASL line and who are too dim to realise that the priority cycle light can only be seen if you stop legally
3) Moronic cyclists who don't think that red lights apply to them and just go through anyway (some with only the vaguest understanding of which strand of traffic might be setting off) (Personally I don't want to have to spend time giving a witness statement when one of them gets knocked off).

I fail to understand why people can't just stop at the line and use roads legally.


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## Drago (10 Jun 2020)

I never filter on my motorsickle. I dont feel the need - if I want to get there 2 minutes quicker I'll simply get out of bed 2 minutes earlier.


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## JPBoothy (10 Jun 2020)

icowden said:


> The other thing that is irritating about motorcyclists driving up the cycle lane and into the ASL box is that at some junctions those boxes have an "early start" green light for cyclists, so these numpties block the cyclists from using the very measure that supposed to give them an additional bit of safety.
> 
> I use the ASL at Blackfriars bridge a lot when returning to Waterloo (I turn right onto the bridge then left down the festival hall road). I see the following behaviours which are all quite frankly irritating:
> 
> ...


I think 'Moronic' red light jumping cyclist as a whole need stopping because they have been doing it for years.. A real plus point that I noticed 'and liked' when joining this forum was that we are not too blinkered to believe that all cyclist are 'special' and everybody who doesn't regularly ride a bike is a git


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## Brandane (11 Jun 2020)

figbat said:


> I generally filter because I can, not because I must. My bike is a hobby, as much as anything - filtering is one of the many pleasures it brings me.


+1 
I always do a "risk assessment"; e.g. are the lights going to change when I'm half way up the queue? If yes, then don't bother. I don't ride in that there London, so ASL's and cyclists aren't much of a concern. Around here, cyclists are a rarity and so aren't catered for in the same way. Outside of Glasgow and Edinburgh, you don't see a lot of ASL's, and the ones you do see are generally empty - so I see no harm in using them on the motorbike. Illegal, tehnically yes, but harmless - a bit like the old RLJ on a pedal cycle at 3 am when turning left. Seriously, some on here claim they are so saintly that they would wait for it to change even in the absence of any traffic. Just like car drivers who never, ever, break the speed limit. Then you get in a car with them and they do 35 in a 30.... But that's just keeping up with the traffic flow they say .


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## captain nemo1701 (11 Jun 2020)

Randy Butternubs said:


> I'm not saying motorcyclists should use the ASLs or that you shouldn't be annoyed at them doing so, but you are wrong about the motivation. They use them for the exact same reasons as cyclists, they are vulnerable in the same way.
> 
> I'm not sure what having an engine or riding on the motorway have to do with it. It sounds a bit like the oft heard: "Cyclists squeeze through stationary traffic so why should I give them any space when overtaking?"
> 
> Getting rear-ended at stops is a big worry on a motorbike. I've even had someone drive into the side of me after we had both been stopped at lights for a few minutes, pinning my leg to the side of the bike. If he'd gone any further he would have crushed it. At junctions there is a strong desire to get somewhere cars can't easily hurt you but can easily see you.



I would say that at 70 mph on a motorway, you are at far greater risk of serious injury or death at that speed plus all the other objects around you doing the same. A stationary line of traffic and the possibility of being rear-ended, which happened to me once in a company Hilux (the driver behind hit the tow hitch), is minimal compared to other risks. My point was that some bikers are happy to expose themselves to higher risk, but are worried by very low risks.

It's a bit like flying. Some people are terrified of flying which is statistically way,way safer than driving. The same people who are afraid of flying or won't cycle because it's 'dangerous', quite happily get into a tin can on wheels and drive at speed where they are far more likely to have an accident simply because there are more cars, law of averages etc. I suppose its about perceived risk, rather than the real risk. also on a motorbike, you generally go faster and so are thus increasing the risk because there's a world of difference between coming off at, say 10mph, and coming off at 40mph.

Here's a thought: a biker gets caught in a traffic jam on a motorway, a 3 lanes blocked...no ASL's, what to do?. I would think in that scenario, the risk of being shunted is also very small.

In any case, there are rules of the road for everyone. No-one, car, biker, cyclist should cherry-pick which they are going to follow.


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## Phaeton (11 Jun 2020)

captain nemo1701 said:


> I would say that at 70 mph on a motorway, you are at far greater risk of serious injury or death at that speed plus all the other objects around you doing the same.


I'd disagree, having travelled many thousands of miles on a motorbike, I have never been involved in an accident on a motorway for exactly the same reason as you state, the speed is greater yes, but you are all hopefully travelling in the same direction. Apart from the speeding Audi/BMW who leaves it until the 100M board before they come from lane 3 to go up their exit, as long as you are paying attention motorways are safe. What is not safe is in towns where the drivers can go off in any direction without warning


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## captain nemo1701 (11 Jun 2020)

Phaeton said:


> I'd disagree, having travelled many thousands of miles on a motorbike, I have never been involved in an accident on a motorway for exactly the same reason as you state, the speed is greater yes, but you are all hopefully travelling in the same direction. Apart from the speeding Audi/BMW who leaves it until the 100M board before they come from lane 3 to go up their exit, as long as you are paying attention motorways are safe. What is not safe is in towns where the drivers can go off in any direction without warning



Well that's the nature of urban environments and all the more reason to follow the rules of the road. It still doesn't excuse current illegal use of things like mandatory cycle lanes & ASL's. Also, motorbikes like cycles, are quite maneuverable and this also helps avoid accidents. I do get annoyed when I'm cycling along in a mandatory lane, coming up to lights with a line of cars, to suddenly get overtaken by motorbikes that cut into the lane in front of me.


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## Phaeton (11 Jun 2020)

captain nemo1701 said:


> Well that's the nature of urban environments and all the more reason to follow the rules of the road. It still doesn't excuse current illegal use of things like mandatory cycle lanes & ASL's. Also, motorbikes like cycles, are quite maneuverable and this also helps avoid accidents. I do get annoyed when I'm cycling along in a mandatory lane, coming up to lights with a line of cars, to suddenly get overtaken by motorbikes that cut into the lane in front of me.


I wasn't defending them, I was just advising that motorways are not the dangerous place you seem to think, but they shouldn't be there & IMO if we had anybody to impose enforcement then they should receive it.


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## Drago (11 Jun 2020)

Motorways are stristically some of the country's safest roads. While the velocities and kinetic energy at hand may make for a lot of pain when something goes wrong, the likelihood of it going wrong to begin with is a lot lower.

Conversely, you can still die or end up crippled if it goes wrong while filtering, which is more likely to happen.

In any case, the people who behave like twits on the motorway probably don't drive any better on urban roads.


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## Brandane (11 Jun 2020)

captain nemo1701 said:


> Here's a thought: a biker gets caught in a traffic jam on a motorway, a 3 lanes blocked...no ASL's, what to do?


Filter to the front of the queue or until traffic starts moving again. Filtering through stationary traffic at a sensible speed is much safer than filtering in moving traffic. 
After filtering to the front, enjoy the clear run, rather than get involved in all the stop/start nonsense that inevitably follows a 3 lane blockage in your scenario.


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## Phaeton (11 Jun 2020)

Brandane said:


> Filter to the front of the queue or until traffic starts moving again. Filtering through stationary traffic at a sensible speed is much safer than filtering in moving traffic.
> After filtering to the front, enjoy the clear run, rather than get involved in all the stop/start nonsense that inevitably follows a 3 lane blockage in your scenario.


Like all these what/if scenarios it all depends on the actual situation, it might be filter as above watching out for opening doors, it might also be that you switch off the engine & put the bike on the stand.


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## carlosfandangus (11 Jun 2020)

Like as @Phaeton said..... circumstances.
I have travelled up the M1 at speeds in excess of 100 mph just to keep with traffic in lanes 2 and 3 and have filtered nearly half of the M25 coming back from WSB at Brands Hatch, a lot does depend on the circumstance of that day/time, I have also put the bike on the stand and sat on the Armco in the central reservation for an hour


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## captain nemo1701 (11 Jun 2020)

I was once sat in an ASL here:





Ok, left lane was being dug up to install gas main, ASL half size just enough room for 2 cyclists. White van behind me, so I'm obscured. Heard approaching engine, then huge motorbike appears from my right, tries to get in ASL, spots me, then goes over second line which I understand is a traffic offence?. Wish bikers wouldn't filter and wrongly assume they can get into the ASL. Poor riding, wrong assumption.


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## classic33 (11 Jun 2020)

Brandane said:


> +1
> I always do a "risk assessment"; e.g. are the lights going to change when I'm half way up the queue? If yes, then don't bother. I don't ride in that there London, so ASL's and cyclists aren't much of a concern. Around here, cyclists are a rarity and so aren't catered for in the same way. Outside of Glasgow and Edinburgh, you don't see a lot of ASL's, and the ones you do see are generally empty - so I see no harm in using them on the motorbike. Illegal, tehnically yes, but harmless - a bit like the old RLJ on a pedal cycle at 3 am when turning left. *Seriously, some on here claim they are so saintly that they would wait for it to change even in the absence of any traffic. *Just like car drivers who never, ever, break the speed limit. Then you get in a car with them and they do 35 in a 30.... But that's just keeping up with the traffic flow they say .


I did that one Sunday morning, around half four, on the way to work. Intent on turning right not left, and got a nudge forward from the lorry driver behind me. Pointed to the light being Red, then got passed as he pulled out to pass me, on the wrong side of the road.

Blind junction to the left and right, with a reputation for being a racetrack at times.


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## MarkF (11 Jun 2020)

Drago said:


> I never filter on my motorsickle. I dont feel the need - if I want to get there 2 minutes quicker I'll simply get out of bed 2 minutes earlier.



If I couldn't filter or use ASL's then I'd give up motorcyling today.


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## figbat (11 Jun 2020)

captain nemo1701 said:


> ...tries to get in ASL, spots me, then goes over second line which I understand is a traffic offence?. Wish bikers wouldn't filter and wrongly assume they can get into the ASL. Poor riding, wrong assumption.


The offence for a motor vehicle (with some exceptions) is crossing the _first _line.


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## Phaeton (11 Jun 2020)

MarkF said:


> If I couldn't filter *or use ASL'*s then I'd give up motorcyling today.


Sorry but you should then, you have no right to be in them


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## Drago (11 Jun 2020)

Of course, the front of the queue is the most dangerous position, particularly for a cyclist. Why go to such effort to expose yourself to danger? Not you, but the same people preach to us about helmet safety then go and exhibit to most dangerous roadcraft. Go figure.


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## figbat (11 Jun 2020)

Phaeton said:


> Sorry but you should then, you have no right to be in them


Interesting point that made me think. On the face of it I tend to agree, but then I think further - if I was prevented from choosing my speed based on the location and conditions, would I keep motorcycling? Clearly there are times that speed limits are inviolable but there are other times where speed limits become..... up for debate? These times often coincide with some of the best memories I have of biking - not speeding _per se_, but enjoying a ride in a fantastic environment at a speed that seems fitting.

If filtering was banned, would I keep riding? Probably, and I'd probably keep filtering too where appropriate.

Do I use ASLs? No.

So I guess we each make our own choices about compliance vs factors such as safety, convenience, enjoyment etc. I wonder how many of us is fully-legal when cycling after dark? (I suspect a large number of us aren't).


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## icowden (11 Jun 2020)

What makes the front of the queue the most dangerous place for a cyclist? My understanding of the ASL boxes is that they were created to improve safety by letting cyclists move off before the motor vehicles.


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## figbat (11 Jun 2020)

icowden said:


> What makes the front of the queue the most dangerous place for a cyclist? My understanding of the ASL boxes is that they were created to improve safety by letting cyclists move off before the motor vehicles.


The problem is that there is a risk to access to ASL (passing stationary traffic, usually on their left) and then when the cycles do "move off before the motor vehicles" they quickly get caught by the motor vehicles leading to potentially unsafe overtaking manoeuvres.


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## Phaeton (11 Jun 2020)

icowden said:


> What makes the front of the queue the most dangerous place for a cyclist? My understanding of the ASL boxes is that they were created to improve safety by *letting cyclists move off before the motor vehicles*.


Or if you ask most motorists they will change that to slowing them down & then as @figbat suggests pushing past them as soon as impractically as possible


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## icowden (11 Jun 2020)

Fair enough.

I think in some places they are arguably safer. For example at Blackfriars, the ASL I use allows cyclists to go about 2-3 seconds before the motorised traffic, which means that bikes turning right can get safely out of the way before the traffic becomes a problem. The are also issues with it in that the cycle lane (stripe on the road job) approaching the ASL has a bus stop not long before the ASL which means that cyclists are often having to filter around the busses. Also that the "go" light for cyclists is only on the left side of the ASL, so very hard for cyclists turning right (who have the most benefit from it) to see.

I always think, "could you not have found a couple of cyclists to review the plans? - they could have made it better and safer."


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## Milkfloat (11 Jun 2020)

I for one like ASLs, I find that I can get away far faster than any following car and be clear of the junction before they can overtake.


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## captain nemo1701 (11 Jun 2020)

Phaeton said:


> Nope I don't think you will, as 'proper/real' motorcyclist wouldn't do that as there is no need, but as usual the idiots will & it's the usual answer, there's nobody out there to stop them so they do.


I should add that I do see bikers being courteous and not barging into the ASL or mandatory lane too. As you say, minority of idiots.


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## Phaeton (11 Jun 2020)

captain nemo1701 said:


> I should add that I do see bikers being courteous and not barging into the ASL or mandatory lane too. As you say, minority of idiots.


Bad planing is also to blame, there's one in Sheffield where you have to cross the two lanes of a dual carriageway to turn right onto the other carriageway (does that make sense?) Anyway the bushes are now that high on the right that you have to enter the ASL to check whether it is clear to cross, https://www.google.com/maps/@53.386...4!1slo543r3lB6nvzJ2sCjauiA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 you end up with a choice to block the ASL or block the pedestrian crossing


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## MarkF (11 Jun 2020)

Phaeton said:


> Sorry but you should then, you have no right to be in them



You don't have to be sorry, I understand. But I use a motorbike solely for commuting, it's a 125cc, I can't out accelerate a normal car. Filtering and using ASL's cuts down a car commute time from 1 hour to 20 minutes. It's trans (in a bowl) Bradford, v.hilly and which I am certain is the the least cycled urban area in the UK, I cannot recall the last time I shared an ACL with a cyclist. I make good use of them and when I am commuting by cycle I don't give a monkey's fart whether a motorbike is in one with me.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (11 Jun 2020)

ASL's look an awful lot like the blindspot of an HGV.

If there were any I wouldn't use them, certainly don't on motorbike as that would be illegal


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## JPBoothy (11 Jun 2020)

Is this thread going anywhere


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## classic33 (11 Jun 2020)

JPBoothy said:


> Is this thread going anywhere


Not beyond the ASL line anyway.


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## pjd57 (11 Jun 2020)

MarkF said:


> You don't have to be sorry, I understand. But I use a motorbike solely for commuting, it's a 125cc, I can't out accelerate a normal car. Filtering and using ASL's cuts down a car commute time from 1 hour to 20 minutes. It's trans (in a bowl) Bradford, v.hilly and which I am certain is the the least cycled urban area in the UK, I cannot recall the last time I shared an ACL with a cyclist. I make good use of them and when I am commuting by cycle I don't give a monkey's fart whether a motorbike is in one with me.


If you are going to ignore the highway code and cross the stop line into the area meant for cyclists , why even bother with the red lights at all ?


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## Smokin Joe (11 Jun 2020)

pjd57 said:


> If you are going to ignore the highway code and cross the stop line into the area meant for cyclists , why even bother with the red lights at all ?


Like cyclists you mean? 

**_Slips out the door quietly and runs**_


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## MarkF (11 Jun 2020)

pjd57 said:


> If you are going to ignore the highway code and cross the stop line into the area meant for cyclists , why even bother with the red lights at all ?


 
The trangressions are not comparable, I don't ever jump a red light on a cycle, motorbike or car.


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## Ming the Merciless (11 Jun 2020)

MarkF said:


> The trangressions are not comparable, I don't ever jump a red light on a cycle, motorbike or car.



Jumping a red light in a motorised vehicle means crossing the first solid white line.


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## MarkF (11 Jun 2020)

YukonBoy said:


> Jumping a red light in a motorised vehicle means crossing the first solid white line.



If so, then I jump red lights on my motorcyle but stop within the ASL and am still wholly unconcerned.


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## Ming the Merciless (11 Jun 2020)

MarkF said:


> If so, then I jump red lights on my motorcyle but stop within the ASL and am still wholly unconcerned.



You will be till you get the 3 points in your licence for each offence .


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## MarkF (11 Jun 2020)

YukonBoy said:


> You will be till you get the 3 points in your licence for each offence .



Good luck with wishing that.


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## pjd57 (11 Jun 2020)

MarkF said:


> The trangressions are not comparable, .



Tell that to the judge !


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## MarkF (11 Jun 2020)

pjd57 said:


> Tell that to the judge !



There won't be one. Next.

When I said I can't recall sharing an ASL with cyclist I meant it, it might be years since I did, Apperley Bridge to BD9 is not a route a cyclist would take unless A, they are mental and have a combined intense hill climb/death wish or B, they work at BRI like me. Dream on.


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## DiddlyDodds (11 Jun 2020)

Is Racing Roadkill a reincarnation of Mathew _T, its very much in the same thread as angry Mathew used to post.


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## gavroche (11 Jun 2020)

DiddlyDodds said:


> Is Racing Roadkill a reincarnation of Mathew _T, its very much in the same thread as angry Mathew used to post.


I don't Mathew has ridden a bike for years now. He is well into cars I believe.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (11 Jun 2020)

gavroche said:


> I don't Mathew has ridden a bike for years now. He is well into cars I believe.


After riding motorbikes, in a carpark in a cycle helmet


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## Brandane (12 Jun 2020)

pjd57 said:


> If you are going to ignore the highway code and cross the stop line into the area meant for cyclists , why even bother with the red lights at all ?


Why? Because the whole point of traffic lights is to improve traffic flow at junctions and stop traffic in one direction from coming into conflict with traffic from another direction. Passing the first stop line, but stopping before the ASL, doesn't alter that. That's where the stop line used to be, after all, pre ASL days.
As for ending up in front of a judge, laughable. I can assure you that the Police have more to worry about. Unless you're really unlucky or have "shown an interest" in the Officer's wife/husband, or failed the attitude test, then they aren't going to bother you.
I'll take my chance anyway. In the unlikely event of a fixed penalty ticket I'll plead guilty and take the points and fine. I still won't end up in front of a judge.


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## Brandane (12 Jun 2020)

gavroche said:


> I don't think Matthew has ridden a bike for years now. He is well into cars I believe.


And it's all YOUR fault, Mr Driving Instructor .


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## gavroche (12 Jun 2020)

Brandane said:


> And it's all YOUR fault, Mr Driving Instructor .


Blimey, somebody has a good memory.  I have been retired from being a driving instructor for 5 years now.


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## rogerzilla (12 Jun 2020)

figbat said:


> Interesting point that made me think. On the face of it I tend to agree, but then I think further - if I was prevented from choosing my speed based on the location and conditions, would I keep motorcycling? Clearly there are times that speed limits are inviolable but there are other times where speed limits become..... up for debate?


Sums up the attitude of many motorcyclists. We're rebels so the law doesn't apply to us. On summer days in the car I am regularly overtaken by idiots on sports bikes doing twice the limit.


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## figbat (12 Jun 2020)

rogerzilla said:


> On summer days in the car I am regularly overtaken by idiots on sports bikes doing twice the limit.


And this sums up the attitude of many non-motorcyclists. I never said that. You have no doubt also been overtaken by careful, considerate bikers on a variety of bike designs doing speeds you are unable to quantify other than being faster than you are driving. I also assume you have never crept over the speed limit in a car.


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## rogerzilla (12 Jun 2020)

figbat said:


> And this sums up the attitude of many non-motorcyclists. I never said that. You have no doubt also been overtaken by careful, considerate bikers on a variety of bike designs doing speeds you are unable to quantify other than being faster than you are driving. I also assume you have never crept over the speed limit in a car.


Oh, I know when I'm doing 50 and being overtaken by something 50mph faster.


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## Gunk (12 Jun 2020)

rogerzilla said:


> Sums up the attitude of many motorcyclists. We're rebels so the law doesn't apply to us. On summer days in the car I am regularly overtaken by idiots on sports bikes doing twice the limit.



sorry!


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## Gunk (12 Jun 2020)

These threads wouldn’t be the same without some biker bashing!


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## Brandane (12 Jun 2020)

rogerzilla said:


> Oh, I know when I'm doing 50 and being overtaken by something 50mph faster.


At least the biker won't be checking Facebook on his or her phone, or shouting at the kids in the back seat, or arguing with the passenger in the front, or taking a phone call, or doing his or her make up, or, or, or......

A biker's life depends on concentrating on his or her riding at ALL times. If only the same could be said of car drivers with all their safety aids.


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## Solocle (12 Jun 2020)

MarkF said:


> There won't be one. Next.
> 
> When I said I can't recall sharing an ASL with cyclist I meant it, it might be years since I did, Apperley Bridge to BD9 is not a route a cyclist would take unless A, they are mental and have a combined intense hill climb/death wish or B, they work at BRI like me. Dream on.


Harrogate Road? Doesn't look _that _bad in the scheme of things.

Only time I cycled in Bradford was the tail end of a metric century loop, out from Leeds, up to Skipton, down to Bradford. I used the Keighley Bypass, only turning off the A650 into Shipley. _That _was a little bit interesting.


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## Phaeton (12 Jun 2020)

Gunk said:


> These threads wouldn’t be the same without some biker bashing!


It's amazing what the green eyed monster brings out in people


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## glasgowcyclist (12 Jun 2020)

The illegal use of ASLs by those not on bicycles is often justified with, "well, there was nobody else using it so it's okay for me to", which is about as valid a reason for using a disabled parking space when you're not a blue badge holder.


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## Slick (12 Jun 2020)

So cyclists shouldn't use it and bikers can't use it.


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## Phaeton (12 Jun 2020)

Slick said:


> So cyclists shouldn't use it and bikers can't use it.


Yep, always said they are a waste of space


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## Brandane (12 Jun 2020)

glasgowcyclist said:


> The illegal use of ASLs by those not on bicycles is often justified with, "well, there was nobody else using it so it's okay for me to", which is about as valid a reason for using a disabled parking space when you're not a blue badge holder.


Difference being, a biker can tell if there is a cyclist using the ASL box, or about to use it (as he will have just passed any cyclists heading that way). I wouldn't dream of using a disabled parking space because I can't possibly tell who might come along and need it while I am away from my car. And in any case I'm not so lazy that i can't walk from the nearest available legal space. Not a valid comparison by you, sorry!


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## Phaeton (12 Jun 2020)

Brandane said:


> Not a valid comparison by you, sorry!


Disagree on that one, you really have no idea who is going to arrive in the ASL whilst you are sat at red, yes you may have passed some, but others may have joined from a side road, or just set off. On a motorbike I cannot see any need to use them, forgetting the legal aspect


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## Brandane (12 Jun 2020)

Phaeton said:


> Disagree on that one, you really have no idea who is going to arrive in the ASL whilst you are sat at red, yes you may have passed some, but others may have joined from a side road, or just set off. On a motorbike I cannot see any need to use them, forgetting the legal aspect


Again, though, it's not a one fits all situation. As previously posted, outside the 3 main cities in Scotland, cyclists around my area are relatively rare. ASL's filled with cycles is something I've never seen. Different rules elsewhere, obviously.


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## glasgowcyclist (12 Jun 2020)

Brandane said:


> Difference being, a biker can tell if there is a cyclist using the ASL box, or about to use it (as he will have just passed any cyclists heading that way). I wouldn't dream of using a disabled parking space because I can't possibly tell who might come along and need it while I am away from my car. And in any case I'm not so lazy that i can't walk from the nearest available legal space. Not a valid comparison by you, sorry!



The motorcyclist can't know when or from where a cyclist will appear once he's in the ASL. The cyclist could come from a shop or a house, or a side street after you've passed.

Ultimately it's not for those who aren't legitimate users to decide on the potential occupancy of a facility that isn't meant for them.


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## gbb (13 Jun 2020)

I couldn't see the video but I can imagine the scenarion.
As I get older I've long since realised one thing that applies to almost everything, there are idiots everywhere. Ride on, walk on, dont get annoyed unless they directly impact on you, you cant save idiots from themselves. You'll be a lot more relaxed about life in general as well


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