# There is no way I'll ever get Di2



## mustang1 (22 Jan 2019)

I'm not saying Di2 is not good, in fact I think it's great and Shimano done a splendid job so if anyone else wants to get it, I will warm heartedly recommend it.

The reason I won't get Di2 is because I don't want yet another device that does software updates, has a million configuration options, gets a software update and changes the menu items around.

Annoyance: I just spent 30 minutes trying to figure out how to adjust the volume of the beeps that come from the TV when I go muck around with the options. Someone had changed it but they didn't own up. Cycling is fun for me and I don't want to turn it into a flamin' techno fest. Grrrr.


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## Globalti (22 Jan 2019)

My car is actually a computer with an engine and wheels. Woe betide you if the computer gets a bag on.


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## I like Skol (22 Jan 2019)

Sat in a brand new car last week and I know this makes me sound like a doddering old fart, but all I could think was WHY? And how are you supposed to even concentrate on driving when all those 'systems' are trying to get your attention and communicate with you continuously. It even beeped and flashed everytime I drove past a lamp post (or that's what it seemed to be doing).


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## ColinJ (22 Jan 2019)

I like Skol said:


> It even beeped and flashed everytime I drove past a lamp post (or that's what it seemed to be doing).


I asked my sister why her car did that and she told me it was a warning about speed cameras!


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## I like Skol (22 Jan 2019)

ColinJ said:


> I asked my sister why her car did that and she told me it was a warning about speed cameras!


No, definitely some kind of proximity or collision warning, it kept triggering as I passed parked cars or turned into sidestreets/carparks, etc.


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## pawl (22 Jan 2019)

I like Skol said:


> Sat in a brand new car last week and I know this makes me sound like a doddering old fart, but all I could think was WHY? And how are you supposed to even concentrate on driving when all those 'systems' are trying to get your attention and communicate with you continuously. It even beeped and flashed everytime I drove past a lamp post (or that's what it seemed to be doing).



I will join you as boring old fart.Not work out after 18 months ownership how to use the cruise control.


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## Oldfentiger (22 Jan 2019)

I like Skol said:


> No, definitely some kind of proximity or collision warning, it kept triggering as I passed parked cars or turned into sidestreets/carparks, etc.


There’s a litter bin on the outside of a right hand corner close to where we live.
Mrs OFT’s Mercedes doesn’t like it. Bleeps at us every time


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## ColinJ (22 Jan 2019)

I like Skol said:


> No, definitely some kind of proximity or collision warning, it kept triggering as I passed parked cars or turned into sidestreets/carparks, etc.


It worries me that people will come to rely on that kind of technology - "_I definitely was *not *driving too close to the cyclist; the car would have warned me if I had been..._"!

Mind you, I suppose that when we have self-driving cars that technology will be doing ALL of the work.


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## DCBassman (22 Jan 2019)

pawl said:


> I will join you as boring old fart.Not work out after 18 months ownership how to use the cruise control.


I could no longer own a car without cruise control, or that I couldn't retrofit it to.


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## screenman (22 Jan 2019)

pawl said:


> I will join you as boring old fart.Not work out after 18 months ownership how to use the cruise control.



What sort of car, took me about 30 seconds in my new one.


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## Slick (22 Jan 2019)

We've already went OT so don't feel too bad about sharing the fact I hired a car yesterday and could actually feel the car take control if I got too close to the white line. It even seemed to know the difference between drifting and deliberately trying it. Witchcraft.


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## EltonFrog (22 Jan 2019)

I don’t understand what Di2 does any better than any other gear change system. One of the best things about owning a bike is it’s simplicity, no electrics at all, nothing to charge, no built in obsolescence. Simple.


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## mustang1 (22 Jan 2019)

Globalti said:


> My car is actually a computer with an engine and wheels. Woe betide you if the computer gets a bag on.


I hate all that media-connected-to-phone stuff. Usually works first time then gets into a twist afterwards. If they can make it work reliably, even if it has less functions, I'm all for it .But all these xompcompawant to do is add more and more functions but not fix the existing bugs. Highly annoying .


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## JhnBssll (22 Jan 2019)

I love gadgets, my car pretty much drives itself when I want it to and I've got Di2 on 2 bikes  It takes all sorts


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## steveindenmark (22 Jan 2019)

Mustang. You old fool. This is why LBS employ 17 year old geeks at the weekend.


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## mustang1 (22 Jan 2019)

JhnBssll said:


> I love gadgets, my car pretty much drives itself when I want it to and I've got Di2 on 2 bikes  It takes all sorts



I really like gadgets too but they really need to be well designed and the rest are too many bugs that will be fixed "later in" with a software update.

In the old days, tech support used to say "have you reviewed your computer?". These days they ask "have youninstallyo the latest update?" Grrrr.


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## DCBassman (22 Jan 2019)

Back on topic, I agree. Bad enough with computers, and I_ like_ computers!


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## DCBassman (22 Jan 2019)

JhnBssll said:


> my car pretty much drives itself when I want it to


Exactly, all I do is steer mine, most of the time!


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## Phaeton (22 Jan 2019)

ColinJ said:


> It worries me that people will come to rely on that kind of technology - "_I definitely was *not *driving too close to the cyclist; the car would have warned me if I had been..._"!


What do you mean 'will' they already have, most think ABS will protect them on snow & or on ice, it also means they can drive 6 feet off the back bumper


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## screenman (22 Jan 2019)

Phaeton said:


> What do you mean 'will' they already have, most think ABS will protect them on snow & or on ice, it also means they can drive 6 feet off the back bumper



Lincolnshire I feel is the tailgating capital of the universe, ACC should be fitted as standard as it would help keep some of them back.


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## Edwardoka (22 Jan 2019)

CarlP said:


> I don’t understand what Di2 does any better than any other gear change system. One of the best things about owning a bike is it’s simplicity, no electrics at all, nothing to charge, no built in obsolescence. Simple.


I've only ever ridden one bike with Di2 and it was magnificent. Stopping on too high a gradient for the gear you're in? None of this lift rear wheel clack clack clack spin clack clack clack stuff; instead, buttery smooth transitions. Also, no indexing issues, cable stretch or misalignment after initial setup.
When it works it cannot be beaten.

Conversely I know someone who had an early model Di2 which died in the middle of a ride, they were stuck in the gear they had with no options for bodging.


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## mustang1 (22 Jan 2019)

Edwardoka said:


> I've only ever ridden one
> *When it works it cannot be beaten*.
> 
> .



I agree.

Right now my kid wants me to sort out his Xbox account. So I'm working with tech at work, I had a small issue with tech at home, and now I'm still screwing around with tech sorting Xbox out. All I want to do is chill out for a bit. And this damn soft keyboard isn't helping matters.
All this constant on and on dealing with tech is getting crazy. I really don't know how to fix things that are not "tech" any more.


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## Drago (22 Jan 2019)

Ifs an amazing, incredible, technical tour de force, astonishing, genuinely high performance gear.

However, it leaves me cold. It answers a question I hadn't asked. It adds needless complexity to a device that had already been refined to a wonderful pinnacle of mechanical efficiency and simplicity over 150 years.

However, someone else may simply get a raging boner for bling, and if that's their thing then fair play indeed to them.


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## raleighnut (22 Jan 2019)

screenman said:


> Lincolnshire I feel is the tailgating capital of the universe, ACC should be fitted as standard as it would help keep some of them back.


I would'na rely on it too much.


View: https://youtu.be/_47utWAoupo


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## pawl (22 Jan 2019)

DCBassman said:


> I could no longer own a car without cruise control, or that I couldn't retrofit it to.




Renault Captur.I don’t drive a lot on motorways. Mainly rural.


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## screenman (22 Jan 2019)

raleighnut said:


> I would'na rely on it too much.
> 
> 
> View: https://youtu.be/_47utWAoupo




Never rely in it for sure, but it has got to be better than many tailgater around here.


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## lane (22 Jan 2019)

mustang1 said:


> I agree.
> 
> Right now my kid wants me to sort out his Xbox account. So I'm working with tech at work, I had a small issue with tech at home, and now I'm still screwing around with tech sorting Xbox out. All I want to do is chill out for a bit. And this damn soft keyboard isn't helping matters.
> All this constant on and on dealing with tech is getting crazy. I really don't know how to fix things that are not "tech" any more.


 
There is something wrong here, Your kid should be sorting YOUR tech out not the other way round.


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## Elybazza61 (22 Jan 2019)

CarlP said:


> I don’t understand what Di2 does any better than any other gear change system. One of the best things about owning a bike is it’s simplicity, no electrics at all, nothing to charge, no built in obsolescence. Simple.



Err,multiple shifts, self-trim of the front mech, sprint shifters to name three.

Oh and charge lasts for a good while with the current battery and you can always leave it on charge when not in use.


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## Racing roadkill (22 Jan 2019)

I wouldn’t want Di2 either, not when there’s SRAM Red eTAP.


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## Phaeton (22 Jan 2019)

pawl said:


> Renault Captur.I don’t drive a lot on motorways. Mainly rural.


Cruise Control is not just for motorways I use mine most of the time especially in 30's


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## I like Skol (22 Jan 2019)

raleighnut said:


> I would'na rely on it too much.
> 
> 
> View: https://youtu.be/_47utWAoupo



Funnily enough, it was a Volvo that was getting on my nerves!


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## JhnBssll (22 Jan 2019)

Dogtrousers said:


> I was going to post the same. I mean, fancy having to trail cables the length of your frame. What a bodge!



Etap is cheaper too, win win!

Personally I prefer the single battery approach and enjoy taking bicycles to bits so Di2 was the clear winner for me


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## EltonFrog (22 Jan 2019)

Edwardoka said:


> I've only ever ridden one bike with Di2 and it was magnificent. Stopping on too high a gradient for the gear you're in? None of this lift rear wheel clack clack clack spin clack clack clack stuff; instead, buttery smooth transitions. Also, no indexing issues, cable stretch or misalignment after initial setup.
> When it works it cannot be beaten.
> 
> Conversely I know someone who had an early model Di2 which died in the middle of a ride, they were stuck in the gear they had with no options for bodging.



I too have ridden a bike with Di2 on a test ride, Cannondale iirc it was smashing, the bike and the shifting, just thought at the time it wasn’t necessary. I don’t regret not buying it.


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## Globalti (22 Jan 2019)

My car can already drive itself using radar to follow the car in front. Some can steer as well. It won't be too long before smart motorways use these tricks to pack many more cars onto congested motorways. Platooning already exists in the USA for trucks.


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## I like Skol (22 Jan 2019)

mustang1 said:


> I agree.
> 
> Right now my kid wants me to sort out his Xbox account. So I'm working with tech at work, I had a small issue with tech at home, and now I'm still screwing around with tech sorting Xbox out. All I want to do is chill out for a bit. And this damn soft keyboard isn't helping matters.
> All this constant on and on dealing with tech is getting crazy. I really don't know how to fix things that are not "tech" any more.


THIS^^^^
Stuff that should be simple just needs constant support. We spend more and more time fixing things that are supposed to 'improve' our day to day lives and make things better. Somehow the argument for having this tech just doesn't stack up!

Cars are one of the most ingrained and ever-present incarnations of this problem. How many of you with brand new, hi-tech, fully loaded cars have had to ferry back & forth to the garage while they try uselessly to fix the 'faulty' flashing light trying to tell you there is something wrong with your car?
Just to change the engine oil on my wife's car i have had to buy a bootleg hack gizmo to crack into the cars programming and reset the service indicators, and let's not even mention changing the fuel filter or auto gearbox oil!!!!!


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## EltonFrog (22 Jan 2019)

Elybazza61 said:


> Err,multiple shifts, self-trim of the front mech, sprint shifters to name three.
> 
> Oh and charge lasts for a good while with the current battery and you can always leave it on charge when not in use.


All very good I’m sure, but my gears never need charging, don’t need batteries and the cable won’t come adrift.


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## JhnBssll (22 Jan 2019)

CarlP said:


> All very good I’m sure, but my gears never need charging, don’t need batteries and the cable won’t come adrift.



Whilst I can find no fault with your points I can't help but mention my gears only need charging every few months and my cables have never once fallen off  But I did have to reindex my commuter the other day, and the turbo bike needs reindexing... These damn pesky new-fangled braided cables have a lot to answer for, it was all solid linkages in my day


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## DCBassman (22 Jan 2019)

pawl said:


> Renault Captur.I don’t drive a lot on motorways. Mainly rural.





Phaeton said:


> Cruise Control is not just for motorways I use mine most of the time especially in 30's


Use it as much as possible.


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## Andy in Germany (22 Jan 2019)

mustang1 said:


> I'm not saying Di2 is not good, in fact I think it's great and Shimano done a splendid job so if anyone else wants to get it, I will warm heartedly recommend it.
> 
> The reason I won't get Di2 is because I don't want yet another device that does software updates, has a million configuration options, gets a software update and changes the menu items around.
> 
> Annoyance: I just spent 30 minutes trying to figure out how to adjust the volume of the beeps that come from the TV when I go muck around with the options. Someone had changed it but they didn't own up. Cycling is fun for me and I don't want to turn it into a flamin' techno fest. Grrrr.



I'm hoarding old Shimano parts so I can keep using a 8 speed gear system...


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## Moodyman (22 Jan 2019)

mustang1 said:


> I hate all that media-connected-to-phone stuff. Usually works first time then gets into a twist afterwards. *If they can make it work reliably, even if it has less functions, I'm all for it .But all these xompcompawant to do is add more and more functions but not fix the existing bugs*. Highly annoying .



This is why Toyota, arguably the largest carmaker and renowned for reliability, have shunned Android Auto and Apply CarPlay until very recently.


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## EltonFrog (22 Jan 2019)

If you like tech, then you’ll like these.


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## Lee_M (22 Jan 2019)

i love my di2, it just works, and it doesnt automatically update and break everything. you can just decide not to reconnect it to anything and it will continue to work perfectly as it is without updates

as someone earlier suggested, some of the options are great, like the self trim, and in my view, semi sync changing makes it worth the money on its own.

Would I have gone out and bought it individually? probably not, but the bike I wanted came with it, and I'm glad it did


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## Alan O (23 Jan 2019)

Computer stuff has been my professional life and I do like good techie stuff - and from what people say, Di2 (and similar) really does seem to work very well.

But I also love refined mechanical simplicity and things that don't need batteries, and for me that's where cycling fits in.


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## Biff600 (23 Jan 2019)

So because of the fact that you couldn't sort your telly out, you don't want Di2 ?


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## EltonFrog (23 Jan 2019)

Biff600 said:


> So because of the fact that you couldn't sort your telly out, you don't want Di2 ?


Seems perfectly logical to me.


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## Drago (23 Jan 2019)

That exactly the reason it does interest me - unnecessary complexity.


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## screenman (23 Jan 2019)

I like Skol said:


> THIS^^^^
> Stuff that should be simple just needs constant support. We spend more and more time fixing things that are supposed to 'improve' our day to day lives and make things better. Somehow the argument for having this tech just doesn't stack up!
> 
> Cars are one of the most ingrained and ever-present incarnations of this problem. How many of you with brand new, hi-tech, fully loaded cars have had to ferry back & forth to the garage while they try uselessly to fix the 'faulty' flashing light trying to tell you there is something wrong with your car?
> Just to change the engine oil on my wife's car i have had to buy a bootleg hack gizmo to crack into the cars programming and reset the service indicators, and let's not even mention changing the fuel filter or auto gearbox oil!!!!!



I cannot figure this out, if you do not like it why own it, you can still buy old bangers. Ever since auto boxes were invented you had or should have changed gearbox oil. Quite happy myself with all the so called mod cons, my rose tinted glasses tinted over a long while back.

As for fixing things more often I have been in the motor trade for 47 years and can certainly remember service every 3,000 miles, clutches seldom lasting 30,000 miles cars worn out at 60,000 and the list goes on.


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## Dirk (23 Jan 2019)

mustang1 said:


> The reason I won't get Di2 is because I don't want yet another device that does software updates, has a million configuration options, gets a software update and changes the menu items around.


You don't have to do updates.
I've had Di2 for 4 years and it has never been touched from when it left the shop. Still works as well as the day I bought it.
I wonder how many mechanical systems can claim that?


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## Drago (23 Jan 2019)

It's like hyrpdraulic disc brakes They (usually) work very well, they're relatively maintenance free, do not require periodic adjustment. When things are going well they're absolutely peachy.

But when they do start acting up or fail you may suddenly find yourself wistfully longing for the simplicity of a cable that takes seconds to change without specialist equipment or tools, even if it does mean you have then spend a whole 2 seconds twiddling a barrel adjusted every 6 or 8 weeks.

Theres no better or worse in the long run. Ying eventually counters yang. The Lord giveth, and the Lord sooner or later taketh away.


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## screenman (23 Jan 2019)

Drago said:


> It's like hyrpdraulic disc brakes They (usually) work very well, they're relatively maintenance free, do not require periodic adjustment. When things are going well they're absolutely peachy.
> 
> But when they do start acting up or fail you may suddenly find yourself wistfully longing for the simplicity of a cable that takes seconds to change without specialist equipment or tools, even if it does mean you have then spend a whole 2 seconds twiddling a barrel adjusted every 6 or 8 weeks.
> 
> Theres no better or worse in the long run. Ying eventually counters yang. The Lord giveth, and the Lord sooner or later taketh away.



But would you like cable drum brakes on your motorbike?


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## Drago (23 Jan 2019)

screenman said:


> But would you like cable drum brakes on your motorbike?



I have owned many a motorbike with cable actuated drums. 

In any case, the comparison bears no scrutiny. Motorcycles are far heavier, travel at typically much greater velocities, and the kinetic energy, frictional forces, and heat by product are all correspondingly much greater.



Dogtrousers said:


> I have absolutely no objection to electronic gear shifting - practical, philosophical, financial or otherwise.
> 
> If the internet had been around in 1910 or thereabouts Henri Desgrange would have been posting "There's no way I'll ever get a freewheel"



I've no objection- as pointed out in my original post, I acknowledge that they are astonishing pieces of technology. They're just not for me, bring me no tangible benefit personally, and dont turn me on. Every single rider is correct as regards their own personal needs, requirements and tastes - the sole objection I do have is someone with flashy electrinic bike bling telling me I'm wrong, out of date, a neanderthal, etc. I'm not wrong at all, I'm just an individual.

I also pointed out that they're not a panacea - when things fail, and inevitably they will sooner or later - the solutions are often more complex, technologically advanced, and thus difficult and expensive as well. 

For every benefit theres a draw back, and I heartily acknowledge that every riders favoured point on the benefit -drawback spectrum will be different, and all power to each and every one of them.


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## byegad (23 Jan 2019)

DCBassman said:


> I could no longer own a car without cruise control, or that I couldn't retrofit it to.


Me too, that and an automatic gearbox on our Hybrid make any journey easy.


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## postman (23 Jan 2019)

Drago said:


> when things fail, and inevitably they will sooner or later - the solutions are often more complex, technologically advanced, and thus difficult and expensive as well.




Reminds me of a story.A man goes to visit his wife's rich relatives in America.He is taken on a tour of the farm,in the family car.His host is telling him our farm is so big,in this car it takes us eight hours to drive around it.The blokes turns to his host and says my car was like that,i finally changed it for a more reliable one.


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## I like Skol (23 Jan 2019)

screenman said:


> I cannot figure this out, if you do not like it why own it, you can still buy old bangers. Ever since auto boxes were invented you had or should have changed gearbox oil. Quite happy myself with all the so called mod cons, my rose tinted glasses tinted over a long while back.
> 
> As for fixing things more often I have been in the motor trade for 47 years and can certainly remember service every 3,000 miles, clutches seldom lasting 30,000 miles cars worn out at 60,000 and the list goes on.


I have both and you know it! I don't mind technology, it's poor tech that is unnecessarily complicated that gets my goat!

As an example from above, changing the gearbox oil on my wife's auto Audi. You have to over-fill the oil, then start the engine, plug in your computer (you do have the required proprietary interface hardware/software don't you?) and navigate to the gearbox oil temp reading, open the level plug and then wait until the oil temp reaches the required heat before refitting the level/drain plug. Stupidly complex and requiring kit that only specialist garages or the main dealer possess. There is absolutely no reason that Audi couldn't use a conventional level plug set at ambient temp with the engine off to do this, but the cynical side of me knows that they can't make money on the servicing that way, so build in a system that forces owners to bring the cars back to them!

Another example of poor tech that is back on topic and cycling related. I have a Garmin for cycle navigation. It's a great piece of kit that has transformed the ease with which I can plan and traverse a new route into an area I haven't been to before. For a dozen rides it will perform almost faultlessly apart from the occasional loss of signal in very hilly or tree covered areas. The next time I go out it will reset all the routing options and start trying to re-route and recalculate at almost every turn rather than follow the route I have pre-loaded. Why does it occasionally decide to change all the settings? It is a perfect example of good tech but poorly executed. It all looks good on paper, but in reality once in the real world many of these ideas are just not implemented with enough robustness to work reliably. Infuriating, but we put up with it by increasing the amount of effort we have to put into making these things work, the things that are supposed to be making life easier/better. Everytime I set out on a ride with my Garmin now I have to try and remember to go into the routing options and check it is still set to the way I want it.....


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## nickAKA (23 Jan 2019)

I like Skol said:


> Cars are one of the most ingrained and ever-present incarnations of this problem. How many of you with brand new, hi-tech, fully loaded cars have had to ferry back & forth to the garage while they try uselessly to fix the 'faulty' flashing light trying to tell you there is something wrong with your car?
> Just to change the engine oil on my wife's car i have had to buy a bootleg hack gizmo to crack into the cars programming and reset the service indicators, and let's not even mention changing the fuel filter or auto gearbox oil!!!!!



It's the implementation in cars that's the problem, and for a mega industry like the automotive sector I think it's disgusting. Case in point; I get 2 warning lights on in my car when it's cold like today - the 4x4 light & the anti skid control - which then basically knocks these gizmos off EXACTLY WHEN YOU NEED THEM. Do an error code scan and it tells you nothing of what the ACTUAL fault is*. Yeah they've made them clever but not clever enough to tell the difference between a dodgy sensor and a catastrophic failure? Come on... Drives me absolutely f*$%ing mad that.

(*I think I know what the actual fault is and it's one of those £30 fixes that the dealer would charge £1000 to replace a serviceable part, another source of *massive* irritation)


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## screenman (23 Jan 2019)

I think the DSG box is far better than an old Both Warner which I used to work on. The last time I had an oil change on a DSG it cost me £25 labour good value.


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## Johnno260 (23 Jan 2019)

I like Skol said:


> Sat in a brand new car last week and I know this makes me sound like a doddering old fart, but all I could think was WHY? And how are you supposed to even concentrate on driving when all those 'systems' are trying to get your attention and communicate with you continuously. It even beeped and flashed everytime I drove past a lamp post (or that's what it seemed to be doing).



I actually pushed the Missus that I needed an "old" car to replace the previous one, I was looking at MK2/3 Golfs as they're pretty robust, she insisted upon something newer, while I like the car, I hate the techno aspect of it, her car is even worse screens etc everywhere, sensors coming out the wazoo and when one fails the car acts like a spoilt brat.


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## Drago (23 Jan 2019)

I like Skol said:


> I have both and you know it! I don't mind technology, it's poor tech that is unnecessarily complicated that gets my goat!
> 
> As an example from above, changing the gearbox oil on my wife's auto Audi. You have to over-fill the oil, then start the engine, plug in your computer (you do have the required proprietary interface hardware/software don't you?) and navigate to the gearbox oil temp reading, open the level plug and then wait until the oil temp reaches the required heat before refitting the level/drain plug. Stupidly complex and requiring kit that only specialist garages or the main dealer possess. There is absolutely no reason that Audi couldn't use a conventional level plug set at ambient temp with the engine off to do this, but the cynical side of me knows that they can't make money on the servicing that way, so build in a system that forces owners to bring the cars back to them!
> 
> Another example of poor tech that is back on topic and cycling related. I have a Garmin for cycle navigation. It's a great piece of kit that has transformed the ease with which I can plan and traverse a new route into an area I haven't been to before. For a dozen rides it will perform almost faultlessly apart from the occasional loss of signal in very hilly or tree covered areas. The next time I go out it will reset all the routing options and start trying to re-route and recalculate at almost every turn rather than follow the route I have pre-loaded. Why does it occasionally decide to change all the settings? It is a perfect example of good tech but poorly executed. It all looks good on paper, but in reality once in the real world many of these ideas are just not implemented with enough robustness to work reliably. Infuriating, but we put up with it by increasing the amount of effort we have to put into making these things work, the things that are supposed to be making life easier/better. Everytime I set out on a ride with my Garmin now I have to try and remember to go into the routing options and check it is still set to the way I want it.....



On the Smart auto box there's no torque converter. Drain it out the bottom, refill it at the top. Mercedes paid a lot of attention to access and ease of maintenance, which was uncharateristically nice of them.

My old Rover P6 V8 you needed a pump to get the new oil in, or about 1/3 of the old oil would remain in the torque converter. Case in point - those old auto boxes were complex but amazing, very strong, very reliable, but when you did have to pay them some kind of attention it was relatively complicated and required tools one wouldn't ordinarily need.



screenman said:


> I think the DSG box is far better than an old Both Warner which I used to work on. The last time I had an oil change on a DSG it cost me £25 labour good value.



But when the clutch pack goes there are 2 of them, in the order of £2000 to replace. Great stuff, but when they really do need attention you know about it. 

Technology for technology's sake again - when things are going swimmingly it's amazing, but when things go wrong you may end up wishing you had more conventional technology instead. Every persons need or tolerance will be different, and the position of their slider on the benefit-drawback spectrum will be differ, but the benefit-drawback ratio is a genuine consideration, one that is too sadly often overlooked. That's why theres no "right" answer, only the solution that suits the needs and wants of each individual.


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## DCBassman (23 Jan 2019)

byegad said:


> Me too, that and an automatic gearbox on our Hybrid make any journey easy.


Yup, auto as well if poss.


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## screenman (23 Jan 2019)

Drago said:


> On the Smart auto box there's no torque converter. Drain it out the bottom, refill it at the top. Mercedes paid a lot of attention to access and ease of maintenance, which was uncharateristically nice of them.
> 
> My old Rover P6 V8 you needed a pump to get the new oil in, or about 1/3 of the old oil would remain in the torque converter. Case in point - those old auto boxes were complex but amazing, very strong, very reliable, but when you did have to pay them some kind of attention it was relatively complicated and required tools one wouldn't ordinarily need.
> 
> ...



Do you have the twin clutch one or the older one, the twin clutch is a different animal.


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## I like Skol (23 Jan 2019)

screenman said:


> I think the DSG box is far better than an old Both Warner which I used to work on. The last time I had an oil change on a DSG it cost me £25 labour good value.





Drago said:


> But when the clutch pack goes there are 2 of them, in the order of £2000 to replace. Great stuff, but when they really do need attention you know about it.
> 
> Technology for technology's sake again - when things are going swimmingly it's amazing, but when things go wrong you may end up wishing you had more conventional technology instead. Every persons need or tolerance will be different, and the position of their slider on the benefit-drawback spectrum will be differ, but the benefit-drawback ratio is a genuine consideration, one that is too sadly often overlooked. That's why theres no "right" answer, only the solution that suits the needs and wants of each individual.


Our Audi has the CVT gearbox. It's amazing, seamless gears and perfect with a torquey high power diseasel. In normal driving the revs rarely go above 1500rpm and not a lot more if being a bit enthusiastic. It's very refined, but if it ever goes wrong I will be well and truly stuffed (Hence the DIY oil changes because I don't trust a main dealer to actually bother doing it rather than just taking my money. There is no way I can tell it has been done and no way to prove they hadn't if the box fails prematurely).


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## raleighnut (23 Jan 2019)

screenman said:


> But would you like cable drum brakes on your motorbike?


Hell yeah,




Where's the 'drool' emoji.


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## screenman (23 Jan 2019)

I like Skol said:


> Our Audi has the CVT gearbox. It's amazing, seamless gears and perfect with a torquey high power diseasel. In normal driving the revs rarely go above 1500rpm and not a lot more if being a bit enthusiastic. It's very refined, but if it ever goes wrong I will be well and truly stuffed (Hence the DIY oil changes because I don't trust a main dealer to actually bother doing it rather than just taking my money. There is no way I can tell it has been done and no way to prove they hadn't if the box fails prematurely).



That is a shame that you are so mistrusting, they would of course let you watch and or video it for you now.


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## Rusty Nails (23 Jan 2019)

There is only one reason why I won't go down the Di2 route and that is money. For the added benefits in performance and pleasure the extra money is not worth it to me or my type of riding, plus I assume maintenance and replacement costs may be more costly.

When the technology trickles down and gets less expensive then I will think about it.

If someone wants to donate an old, working set they no longer need to me I am happy to be proved wrong.


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## I like Skol (23 Jan 2019)

screenman said:


> That is a shame that you are so mistrusting, they would of course let you watch and or video it for you now.


Once bitten twice shy, fingers burnt, etc.

I know there are lots and lots of decent, capable, honest people working the motor trade, but human nature being what it is there will always be some that will cut corners and neglect things that are hidden from view, whether that is for reasons of time pressures, profit or just because they can. The trouble is that I know too much. If I was clueless about vehicles then I would be none the wiser when I was being duped and all would be good with the world. It doesn't instil confidence when a main dealer swears they have done a job when I only have to lift the bonnet and the evidence is there to prove they haven't!

EDIT: Obviously this isn't the fault of modern technology......


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## Rusty Nails (23 Jan 2019)

With technology in general I am not an early adopter.

On this innovation curve I fall somewhere to the right.


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## Alan O (23 Jan 2019)

Dogtrousers said:


> Would you mind not posting such enormous images. It takes my browser too long to download them. And there's smoke coming out of my modem now.


You forgot to wind it up before logging in again, didn't you?


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## Smokin Joe (23 Jan 2019)

For all the moans about how expensive and unreliable modern technology is, the reverse is actually true. Older cars were easier to work on, but they needed constant adjustment to keep running and they did not last anywhere near as long. At 60k most engines were on their last legs whereas now they are barely run in, clutches would rarely go past 40,000 miles and Saturdays were spent under the bonnet either fiddling with or replacing something. Most families were on first name terms with the TV repair man and bicycles were not the super reliable machines which lasted for ever that some people would have you believe. 

When hi tech stuff breaks it does cost more to fix or replace, but with a few exceptions most things last longer and performs at their optimum rate for nearly all of their life. The "Good old days" are seen through heavily rose tinted specs, when in truth they were not all that great after all. Electronic shifting? Five years on it will be so common and more affordable that most people won't question having it on a bike - with the exception of those who think technology peaked with friction shifters and the five speed block, and as remainers constantly say about Brexiteers, they will be dying off soon anyway.


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## MichaelW2 (23 Jan 2019)

Repairing Di2 is easy. You just switch it off and switch it back on again.


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## overmind (24 Jan 2019)

Rusty Nails said:


> With technology in general I am not an early adopter.
> On this innovation curve I fall somewhere to the right.
> View attachment 448605



When it comes to bikes I am firmly on the right.

My favourite bike tech is: cup and cone bearings, rim brakes, index gears.

I am still a little undecided whether to embrace freehubs or freewheels. I have 2 main bikes: one with freewheel and the other with freehub and I see pros and cons with each. Another good example is that I prefer to have analogue (friction) gears for the (front) chainset and index gears for the rear. I find index gears on the chainset problematic.

(*Edit:* interesting ... Sheldon Brown seems to agree)
"Indexed rear shifting is a very worthwhile feature. Indexed front shifting, however, is of much more questionable value, especially with only two chainwheels, so the derailer's limit stops already provide indexing of a sort."
-- https://www.sheldonbrown.com/upgrade-gears.html

Even with computers I have a philosophy of 'trailing edge technology'. I use time as a filter to determine what technology is any good (i.e. it persists). My current favourite computer tech would be an old IBM/Lenovo Thinkpad. Those things are reliable and built like tanks.


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## Justinslow (24 Jan 2019)

Ooh, I’ve never updated my Di2, sounds fun, I think I’ll give it a go if I can work out how, must have the latest update......

Edit, “synchro shifting” sounds cool, anybody use it?


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## I like Skol (24 Jan 2019)

Justinslow said:


> Ooh, I’ve never updated my Di2, sounds fun, I think I’ll give it a go if I can work out how, must have the latest update......
> 
> Edit, “synchro shifting” sounds cool, anybody use it?


Don't EVER update something that is working well as it is. The update will only highlight the deficiencies and turn something that was ok into something that is a steaming pile of poo!


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## Justinslow (24 Jan 2019)

I like Skol said:


> Don't EVER update something that is working well as it is. The update will only highlight the deficiencies and turn something that was ok into something that is a steaming pile of poo!


Yeah but....
I only require a new battery for another 100 quid
Then I can have synchro shift
imagine how impressed my mates will be


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## JhnBssll (24 Jan 2019)

I think the semi-synchro shifting is one of the best bits  Never tried it in full synchro, don't see much point, but use it in semi-synchro 100% of the time


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## MrBeanz (25 Jan 2019)

Don't want it, don't need it, don't want to pay for it!


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## Milkfloat (25 Jan 2019)

MrBeanz said:


> Don't want it, don't need it, don't want to pay for it!



Don't want to pay for it, don't need it, *really want* it.


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## MrBeanz (25 Jan 2019)

Milkfloat said:


> Don't want to pay for it, don't need it, *really want* it.


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## screenman (25 Jan 2019)

Milkfloat said:


> Don't want to pay for it, don't need it, *really want* it.



Very honest post.


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## Dirk (26 Jan 2019)

MrBeanz said:


> Don't want it, don't need it, don't want to pay for it!


Don't buy it then.


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## Proto (26 Jan 2019)

Buy a 2CV, completely tech free! Here’s mine.


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## MrBeanz (26 Jan 2019)

Dirk said:


> Don't buy it then.


Great advice, thanks!


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## screenman (26 Jan 2019)

Proto that is nice.


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## Smokin Joe (26 Jan 2019)

Proto said:


> View attachment 449025
> 
> 
> Buy a 2CV, completely tech free! Here’s mine.


I would love one of those.


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## SkipdiverJohn (26 Jan 2019)

screenman said:


> That is a shame that you are so mistrusting, they would of course let you watch and or video it for you now.



The motor trade has always had more than it's fair share of rogues, and they are not just confined to the back street under the arches workshops and bomb site sales forecourts either. Plenty of very dodgy stuff goes on in main dealers, corner-cutting to save time and earn bonus, parts being charged for but not fitted etc.
I've always done my own oil changes & maintenance. It costs me peanuts and I know its been done. I don't wait for stupid mileages between oil changes either, skimping on oil is the worst false economy in motoring. Mine get annual changes even though the mileage is way under the official service intervals.


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## Proto (26 Jan 2019)

Smokin Joe said:


> I would love one of those.



It could well be for sale in the spring .............


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## screenman (26 Jan 2019)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> The motor trade has always had more than it's fair share of rogues, and they are not just confined to the back street under the arches workshops and bomb site sales forecourts either. Plenty of very dodgy stuff goes on in main dealers, corner-cutting to save time and earn bonus, parts being charged for but not fitted etc.
> I've always done my own oil changes & maintenance. It costs me peanuts and I know its been done. I don't wait for stupid mileages between oil changes either, skimping on oil is the worst false economy in motoring. Mine get annual changes even though the mileage is way under the official service intervals.



I take it you work amongst these guys like I do, trading standards is very hard on the motor trade. I do not know of one garage amongst my many customers who fit your views. Sure every industry including yours which of course you have never told us what it is has rogues, but there are far more trustworthy one's. Sure to people like you they will look expensive, but blame that on costs rather than excessive profits.


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## SkipdiverJohn (26 Jan 2019)

screenman said:


> . Sure to people like you they will look expensive, but blame that on costs rather than excessive profits.



If I pay someone to perform a service for me, I don't have a problem with reasonable costs plus a bit of profit. What I do have a problem with is paying a premium purely for someone's expensive prime-location flashy premises with plate glass windows, costly furnishings & decor, and company-branded everything all around the place. None of the bling and flashiness contributes in any way to the quality of the end result. That just depends on the person performing the task knowing what they are doing & having the right tools and materials to hand - which could be done to exactly the same standard in a back-street shed in a low-rent area without all the bling. You may see some "added value" in all the front-of-house beauty show; I don't. What matters is what goes on out the back, where the customer can't see.


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## screenman (26 Jan 2019)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> If I pay someone to perform a service for me, I don't have a problem with reasonable costs plus a bit of profit. What I do have a problem with is paying a premium purely for someone's expensive prime-location flashy premises with plate glass windows, costly furnishings & decor, and company-branded everything all around the place. None of the bling and flashiness contributes in any way to the quality of the end result. That just depends on the person performing the task knowing what they are doing & having the right tools and materials to hand - which could be done to exactly the same standard in a back-street shed in a low-rent area without all the bling. You may see some "added value" in all the front-of-house beauty show; I don't. What matters is what goes on out the back, where the customer can't see.



I agree with you on some of those point, but specialist tools and training cost money which most back street lads do not have. Also it is the maufacturer who sets the rules on showrooms/workshops not the dealer often. I like to drive in, get a new loan car for the day, get my car back washed and cleaned and maintaining its value due to having a main agent service history, all the while knowing that a skilled specialist has done the job and should there be a problem they will not wriggle.


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## SkipdiverJohn (26 Jan 2019)

If you're a frequent car changer, you may care about dealer stamps and history because you are trading it in to the prime used market, where customers will look for these things. However, I'm not concerned with residual values. I buy cars with minimal tech/gadgets in them and just keep driving them until they die, then I go and get another one and do the same. When cars get into double-digit years in age, the effect of a service history is pretty minimal anyway.


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## screenman (26 Jan 2019)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> If you're a frequent car changer, you may care about dealer stamps and history because you are trading it in to the prime used market, where customers will look for these things. However, I'm not concerned with residual values. I buy cars with minimal tech/gadgets in them and just keep driving them until they die, then I go and get another one and do the same. When cars get into double-digit years in age, the effect of a service history is pretty minimal anyway.



I spend at least 3 hours a day in the car, I hate old bangers, or even old not bangers. Give me all the bling every day, that is if you can call a Skoda bling.


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## Smokin Joe (26 Jan 2019)

screenman said:


> I spend at least 3 hours a day in the car, I hate old bangers, or even old not bangers. Give me all the bling every day, that is if you can call a Skoda bling.


I'm the opposite with cars. I hate aircon and didn't even turn it on when my last car had it, I have an ABS system built into my foot, don't need something to tell me when I'm too close to the car in front and I'm happy to take responsibility for keeping a car in whatever lane I'm supposed to be in.

Each to their own of course, but if a fraction of what is spent on electronic driving aids was invested in advancing our driving beyond the basic we'd all be a lot safer for it.


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## SkipdiverJohn (26 Jan 2019)

Smokin Joe said:


> I'm the opposite with cars. I hate aircon and didn't even turn it on when my last car had it, I have an ABS system built into my foot, don't need something to tell me when I'm too close to the car in front and I'm happy to take responsibility for keeping a car in whatever lane I'm supposed to be in.
> 
> Each to their own of course, but if a fraction of what is spent on electronic driving aids was invested in advancing our driving beyond the basic we'd all be a lot safer for it.



Exactly my philosophy. Four wheels, an engine, reasonably comfortable seats and a working heater & radio is all the tech I need or want in a car. I still prefer wind-up windows and key locking. All the motors & solenoids is just extra cost, extra weight, and extra stuff to malfunction as the car gets older. Simple, basic cars tend to survive longer on the road because there is less to fail on them. A million taxi drivers in Africa who favour old-school pre-electronic Peugeots to modern stuff can't be wrong!


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## screenman (26 Jan 2019)

Smokin Joe said:


> I'm the opposite with cars. I hate aircon and didn't even turn it on when my last car had it, I have an ABS system built into my foot, don't need something to tell me when I'm too close to the car in front and I'm happy to take responsibility for keeping a car in whatever lane I'm supposed to be in.
> 
> Each to their own of course, but if a fraction of what is spent on electronic driving aids was invested in advancing our driving beyond the basic we'd all be a lot safer for it.



I agree with you, I cannot though pump the pdeal as quick as the ABS can though. he others are safety features, I drive the same as I always have.


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## screenman (26 Jan 2019)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Exactly my philosophy. Four wheels, an engine, reasonably comfortable seats and a working heater & radio is all the tech I need or want in a car. I still prefer wind-up windows and key locking. All the motors & solenoids is just extra cost, extra weight, and extra stuff to malfunction as the car gets older. Simple, basic cars tend to survive longer on the road because there is less to fail on them. A million taxi drivers in Africa who favour old-school pre-electronic Peugeots to modern stuff can't be wrong!



No but they can be poor, I think by now we have you feelings towards money.


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## SkipdiverJohn (26 Jan 2019)

screenman said:


> No but they can be poor, I think by now we have you feelings towards money.



People don't always choose simplicity because that's all they can afford. Often they want reliability and hassle-free utility above all. I could go out and buy any new mass-produced car I fancied tomorrow if I so desired. But I don't believe in wasting money on pointless bling, or getting hammered by heavy new car depreciation, so I don't play that game. I know plenty of people who do play that game, and most of them, in reality, are skint and live from hand to mouth because their income only just barely covers their outgoings. They don't have much safety margin to deal with unforeseen happenings, like being off sick on reduced pay or meeting a large unexpected bill.


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## screenman (26 Jan 2019)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> People don't always choose simplicity because that's all they can afford. Often they want reliability and hassle-free utility above all. I could go out and buy any new mass-produced car I fancied tomorrow if I so desired. But I don't believe in wasting money on pointless bling, or getting hammered by heavy new car depreciation, so I don't play that game. I know plenty of people who do play that game, and most of them, in reality, are skint and live from hand to mouth because their income only just barely covers their outgoings. They don't have much safety margin to deal with unforeseen happenings, like being off sick on reduced pay or meeting a large unexpected bill.



They are idiots then, I cannot understand anyone playing that game. The thing I do not get is this John, say you have £200 a week disposable after everthing paid do you just save it up to leave to somebody when you pass away. Now obviously that is a figure plucked out of the air, you may well have a lot more, but I just wondered when you start spending.


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## Yellow Saddle (27 Jan 2019)

We were so poor we used to live in a cardboard box in the middle of the street.
Now that I have a bit of money I still like my cardboard box. I don't see the point in anything with unnecessary features. If it is worn out and soggy, I just get a new one and start all over again.


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## raleighnut (28 Jan 2019)

Yellow Saddle said:


> We were so poor we used to live in a cardboard box in the middle of the street.
> Now that I have a bit of money I still like my cardboard box. I don't see the point in anything with unnecessary features. If it is worn out and soggy, I just get a new one and start all over again.


You were lucky.


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## mustang1 (28 Jan 2019)

I like Skol said:


> THIS^^^^
> Stuff that should be simple just needs constant support. We spend more and more time fixing things that are supposed to 'improve' our day to day lives and make things better. Somehow the argument for having this tech just doesn't stack up!
> 
> Cars are one of the most ingrained and ever-present incarnations of this problem. How many of you with brand new, hi-tech, fully loaded cars have had to ferry back & forth to the garage while they try uselessly to fix the 'faulty' flashing light trying to tell you there is something wrong with your car?
> Just to change the engine oil on my wife's car i have had to buy a bootleg hack gizmo to crack into the cars programming and reset the service indicators, and let's not even mention changing the fuel filter or auto gearbox oil!!!!!



I'm not kidding: headlight on an old car was fused and after putting a new light on, they told me is not working because I need a software upgrade. It cost £300 but they would let me have it for 10%

But the truly amazing thing is the service manager was telling me this sh1t with a completely straight face .


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## Winnershsaint (28 Jan 2019)

DCBassman said:


> I could no longer own a car without cruise control, or that I couldn't retrofit it to.


Speed limiter so much more practical, have both on my car only use limiter not CC.


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## DCBassman (28 Jan 2019)

For me, entirely the opposite. Why do something you don't need to, ie use your right foot?


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## JhnBssll (28 Jan 2019)

Never used the speed limiter, but use cruise control 70% of the time I'm driving. Adaptive cruise control that is, so it automatically adjusts the speed to maintain distance to the car in front. It's fabulous


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## screenman (28 Jan 2019)

I wonder if the same people writing I will not get one of those things said the same when computers came about, or colour tv.


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## Smokin Joe (28 Jan 2019)

screenman said:


> I wonder if the same people writing I will not get one of those things said the same when computers came about, or colour tv.


If pneumatic tyres had only been invented yesterday we'd by now have a thread telling us they were too complicated, too unreliable, a solution looking for a problem and unnecessary.


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## raleighnut (28 Jan 2019)

Dogtrousers said:


> I clung resolutely to my tiny B&W portable TV. But when my wife moved in then things changed ... Sigh.



Same here, the Licence was cheaper.

I've even had a guy from TV Licencing come to the door of my old flat wanting to check I'd only got a B&W Telly, I told him it was only rented too (from the Co-op, £1.90 a month)


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## Cycleops (28 Jan 2019)

Smokin Joe said:


> If pneumatic tyres had only been invented yesterday we'd by now have a thread telling us they were too complicated, too unreliable, a solution looking for a problem and unnecessary.






"What you really need to invent is an electric gear changing system not those rubber things filled with air"


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## DCBassman (28 Jan 2019)

Dogtrousers said:


> Out of interest ... what's the difference? I once drove a hire car in Finland with cruise control which came in handy on those very long very quiet roads. But I've not heard of speed limiters.


Speed limiter set to, say, 70, means your right foot cannot make you exceed the set speed.


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## Yellow Saddle (28 Jan 2019)

screenman said:


> I wonder if the same people writing I will not get one of those things said the same when computers came about, or colour tv.


Wait 'till they hear about ball point pens, safety razors and penicillin.


DCBassman said:


> Speed limiter set to, say, 70, means your right foot cannot make you exceed the set speed.



That sounds like a fantastic feature. Much more useful than cruise control, which doesn't work on a busy freeway.


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## DCBassman (28 Jan 2019)

Yellow Saddle said:


> That sounds like a fantastic feature. Much more useful than cruise control, which doesn't work on a busy freeway.


I've found it to be quite useless, to be honest. I prefer to use CC when I can, which is probably 80+% of the time, and discipline when it's not a viable option.


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## DCBassman (29 Jan 2019)

Dogtrousers said:


> They sound like very minor variations on the same thing to me.


They are indeed different uses of the same piece if technology .


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## Yellow Saddle (29 Jan 2019)

Dogtrousers said:


> They sound like very minor variations on the same thing to me.



No, they would be completely different. 

Cruise control sets a speed at which the car travels and you take your foot off the accelerator and the car maintains a constant speed. However, the traffic isn't travelling at a constant speed and you continually have to brake, which disables the CC. Accelerating whilst using it is ok, because once you take your foot off the gas again, it slows down to the set speed. It works well on empty roads where you don't have to compensate for traffic.

A speed limiter requires you to set the pace, but won't let you exceed the setting. This to me sounds more usable in traffic.

By traffic I mean freeways with lots of cars entering and exiting junctions, which cause a variance in speed.

Distance control adds another dimension. It won't allow your car, when on cruise control, to approach another car. Conversely, if the car in front slows down, you slow down. That's probably the only way speed control will work effectively on busy roads.


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## DCBassman (29 Jan 2019)

Yellow Saddle said:


> No, they would be completely different.


Different in action, but using the same parts of the engine management system.


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## raleighnut (29 Jan 2019)

Personally I'd prefer a car with no ABS, Traction Control, Cruise Control or Speed Limiter. In other words something basic



Spoiler


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## Yellow Saddle (29 Jan 2019)

DCBassman said:


> Different in action, but using the same parts of the engine management system.


Nope.


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## DCBassman (29 Jan 2019)

Yellow Saddle said:


> Nope.


Care to elucidate?


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## mustang1 (29 Jan 2019)

Biff600 said:


> So because of the fact that you couldn't sort your telly out, you don't want Di2 ?


TV sorted. Just concerned with how long it took.


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## SkipdiverJohn (29 Jan 2019)

raleighnut said:


> Personally I'd prefer a car with no ABS, Traction Control, Cruise Control or Speed Limiter. In other words something basic



That's what I like. Basic motoring where the driver actually drives the vehicle - not just stares out of the window and uses the steering wheel a bit. All the gadgets just allow you to not concentrate on your driving, in the false belief that the car will stop you getting yourself into trouble situations. Plenty of muppets have learned the hard way that ABS doesn't stop you crashing into things if you don't drive according to the road conditions.


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## Alan O (29 Jan 2019)

DCBassman said:


> Speed limiter set to, say, 70, means your right foot cannot make you exceed the set speed.


I'm not a driver, so take this with a pinch of whatever condiment you prefer, but could that not be a hindrance if you need to get out of an emergency situation in a hurry?


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## User169 (29 Jan 2019)

Alan O said:


> I'm not a driver, so take this with a pinch of whatever condiment you prefer, but could that not be a hindrance if you need to get out of an emergency situation in a hurry?



The old "I need to accelerate out of danger" gag!


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## Alan O (29 Jan 2019)

DP said:


> The old "I need to accelerate out of danger" gag!


Is it? Having never driven since I failed a test at 17 (I'm 60 now) I really don't know.


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## DCBassman (29 Jan 2019)

Alan O said:


> I'm not a driver, so take this with a pinch of whatever condiment you prefer, but could that not be a hindrance if you need to get out of an emergency situation in a hurry?


There's a kickdown facility. Hit the floor and it will unlock.


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## SkipdiverJohn (29 Jan 2019)

Alan O said:


> I'm not a driver, so take this with a pinch of whatever condiment you prefer, but could that not be a hindrance if you need to get out of an emergency situation in a hurry?



Of course it is. There are situations where putting your foot down and getting clear of some position quickly is the safest course of action. Overtaking an HGV is a good example; you do not want to be driving side by side with a large vehicle exposed to oncoming traffic for any longer than necessary, you want to accelerate past it as quickly as possible and get back into your lane.


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## Smokin Joe (29 Jan 2019)

The times people need to accelerate out of danger is beaten by 1000/1 by the times they accelerate into it.


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## DCBassman (29 Jan 2019)

Smokin Joe said:


> The times people need to accelerate out of danger is beaten by 1000/1 by the times they accelerate into it.


This. I enjoy my incredibly torquey diesel, and there's a lot of ooomph on tap. But like all powerful systems, it's headroom, not remotely needed most of the time.


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## screenman (29 Jan 2019)

Using ACC does not stop me concentrating.


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## DCBassman (29 Jan 2019)

screenman said:


> Using ACC does not stop me concentrating.


I find using CC gives me less to do, therefore more brainpower to apply to being aware.


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## SkipdiverJohn (29 Jan 2019)

The trouble with various modern driver aids is that they reduce the amount of things you have to do, so allow the mind to wander away from the driving. Anyone who has ever driven a really old vintage vehicle will tell you they are far too busy actually driving the thing to have time for daydreaming or fiddling around with things like mobile phones.


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## DCBassman (29 Jan 2019)

DCBassman said:


> I find using CC gives me less to do, therefore more brainpower to apply to being aware.





SkipdiverJohn said:


> The trouble with various modern driver aids is that they reduce the amount of things you have to do, so allow the mind to wander away from the driving. Anyone who has ever driven a really old vintage vehicle will tell you they are far too busy actually driving the thing to have time for daydreaming or fiddling around with things like mobile phones.


The opposite is true for me. I know plenty who would fall asleep unless driving a manual car. I prefer to concentrate on the world around me and let the car do the rest.


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## screenman (29 Jan 2019)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> The trouble with various modern driver aids is that they reduce the amount of things you have to do, so allow the mind to wander away from the driving. Anyone who has ever driven a really old vintage vehicle will tell you they are far too busy actually driving the thing to have time for daydreaming or fiddling around with things like mobile phones.




Likely I have driven far more cars than most on here, fighting to find that missing gear, wobbling down the road on rack and pinion with radial tyres, listed up glass due to lack of heating, I can carry on. I agree with the phone but but disagree strongly that driving aids make you pay less attention to what is going on outside, in fact the opposite. 

Did you spend 4 hours today driving a car with aids?


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## SkipdiverJohn (29 Jan 2019)

I often drive vehicles with poor side & rearwards visibility, so I have to use the mirrors properly all the time. It's also interesting when driving a high up vehicle, to look down into adjacent cars and observe their drivers with both hands on a gadget in their lap and no hands on the steering wheel or any other driving controls. Automatics are the worst for this sort of inattentive driving.


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## screenman (29 Jan 2019)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> I often drive vehicles with poor side & rearwards visibility, so I have to use the mirrors properly all the time. It's also interesting when driving a high up vehicle, to look down into adjacent cars and observe their drivers with both hands on a gadget in their lap and no hands on the steering wheel or any other driving controls. Automatics are the worst for this sort of inattentive driving.



Those same drivers would be inattentive in any vehicle, you really should spend more time observing the road rather than looking in people cars. Percentage wise more manual cars are involved in accidents than automatics.


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## mustang1 (30 Jan 2019)

Dogtrousers said:


> I don't think anyone a
> Re cars. *The most complex thing I am capable of doing with my car is filling the windscreen wash reservoir. I* like it like that. More automation please.



Suppose every 3rd or 4th time you filled the screen washer, an improvement had been made and you then had to spend 30 minutes figuring out how to open the screen reservoir.


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## screenman (30 Jan 2019)

mustang1 said:


> Suppose every 3rd or 4th time you filled the screen washer, an improvement had been made and you then had to spend 30 minutes figuring out how to open the screen reservoir.



Not sure where you are going with that post.


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## mustang1 (30 Jan 2019)

MichaelW2 said:


> Repairing Di2 is easy. You just switch it off and switch it back on again.



That's what my PPL instructor told me about the single engine prop I was flying.


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## mustang1 (30 Jan 2019)

screenman said:


> Not sure where you are going with that post.



I origgiorig started this thread because of the a amount of time it took me to fix a really simple problem .Sono was trying to say that a simple thing like filling washer fluid in the car required 30 minutes research, then would one not also be annoyed?


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## mustang1 (30 Jan 2019)

Dogtrousers said:


> Old age has sorted that for me. I spend 30 minutes trying to find the bonnet release lever because it's not in the same place as it was on my first car..


..and after a software update, the lever will be in another place yet again. File/settings/bonnet/release


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## mustang1 (30 Jan 2019)

Proto said:


> View attachment 449025
> 
> 
> Buy a 2CV, completely tech free! Here’s mine.


There is tech in that car: it has round wheels .


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## mustang1 (30 Jan 2019)

I'm very much not against tech. I am against the time taken to change various settings.

If I came home and saw the light wasn't working, I figure i need a new bulb .But if I came home and the light didn't work, I wouldn't want to go into Light Settings and spend 30 minutes trying to figure out why it's not working, for something so mundane as a light switch.


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## mustang1 (30 Jan 2019)

I wonder if anyone who doesn't like driver aids would feel the same if flying an airplane without automation: constant trim of flying surfaces, constant tweaks when hit by wind and so on.


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## Blue Hills (31 Jan 2019)

Andy in Germany said:


> I'm hoarding old Shimano parts so I can keep using a 8 speed gear system...


Good move. I'm hoarding 9 speed as well. Already got good stocks. Mechs front and rear, shifters - don't think I will have significant trouble with cassettes and chains.


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## Blue Hills (31 Jan 2019)

Drago said:


> It's like hyrpdraulic disc brakes They (usually) work very well, they're relatively maintenance free, do not require periodic adjustment. When things are going well they're absolutely peachy.
> 
> But when they do start acting up or fail you may suddenly find yourself wistfully longing for the simplicity of a cable that takes seconds to change without specialist equipment or tools, even if it does mean you have then spend a whole 2 seconds twiddling a barrel adjusted every 6 or 8 weeks.
> .


This. I bought a dale which came with magura hydraulic rim brakes. A delight for years once set up - great pads, changing them took 2 seconds, brakes effective. Then one got air in it and the other started leaking. Got the kit to bleed and refill but couldn't sort it. Took them off and went to V brakes. Simple and effective. On tour that hydro problem would have been a very serious problem.


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## Winnershsaint (4 Feb 2019)

Dogtrousers said:


> Out of interest ... what's the difference? I once drove a hire car in Finland with cruise control which came in handy on those very long very quiet roads. But I've not heard of speed limiters.


They are very similar but the cruise control comes off when I brake. If I set the speed limiter to 70 it'll allow me to go up to 70, but no further. If I reduce speed the speed limiter stays on and will allow me to accelerate back up to 70 without having to reset it as I have to do with cruise control.


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## DCBassman (4 Feb 2019)

Winnershsaint said:


> They are very similar but the cruise control comes off when I brake. If I set the speed limiter to 70 it'll allow me to go up to 70, but no further. If I reduce speed the speed limiter stays on and will allow me to accelerate back up to 70 without having to reset it as I have to do with cruise control.


Shouldn't have to reset it, just press 'resume'.


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