# BB7s to Hope V-Twin?



## Red Light (3 Jun 2012)

Thinking of swapping my Avid BB7s on my Genesis Day One to Hope V-Twins - the Avids just don't have that rock solid reliable braking feel that I get from the Hopes on my other bikes plus I can't get them so they reliably don't rub without giving so much gap that the brake lever goes to the bar. Hydraulics have that nice feel of once they start to bite, the lever doesn't move further, you just squeeze it harder to brake more. Can't go full Hope because the Day One has drop bars with the Alfine drop bar shifter so I need a cable to hydraulic conversion

So the question is do I need new rotors as well or can I use the Hopes on the Avid rotors? Any other things I should look out for?


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## Howard (3 Jun 2012)

I've heard good things about the hope unit. I would have thought rotors came with it? The rotors are shown in the product description photo.

I've also set up BB7s & BB5s to work perfectly with drop bars from both Shimano and SRAM - no rub & progressive hydraulic-like power. Requires time, patience and pricey full length cable housing though.

Your other, cheaper option is to try a pair of Travel Agents which will trade you more cable pull for a decrease in mechanical advantage.


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## Andrew Br (3 Jun 2012)

Red Light said:


> ................plus I can't get them so they reliably don't rub without giving so much gap that the brake lever goes to the bar.


 
I've got BB7s on all 3 of my bikes (one straight bars, the other two are drops) and I don't have this problem.
I set the inner pad as close as possible to the rotor then dial in the outer pad as close as possible without rubbing.
As the pads wear, I move them in until they rub and then back them off a few "clicks".




Red Light said:


> So the question is do I need new rotors as well or can I use the Hopes on the Avid rotors? Any other things I should look out for?


 
I can't see why you'd need the Hope rotors but they do look really, really good. IMO. I've got them on two of the bikes.

If you do go down the V-twin route, please report back.
Despite my satisfaction with BB7s, I've looked at going down the hydraulic route.
I'm particularly interested in the weight comparison between each system.


.


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## Andy_R (3 Jun 2012)

I've actually swapped from hydraulic (shimano m775) to cable (bb7) for the simplicity of the system and now they've bedded in, I can honsetly say the bb7s are almost as good as my old m775s. Simply put, when properly adjusted they can stop a fat lad going downhill on a bike. Take some time to set them up and never have to worry about bleeding or over boiling.


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## Howard (4 Jun 2012)

I think the OP may struggle with Cable Pull discs because the Alfine (Joytech?) drop bar shifters are a bit cheap and cheerful. The may pull less cable than others. Who knows.


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## Red Light (4 Jun 2012)

Howard said:


> I think the OP may struggle with Cable Pull discs because the Alfine (Joytech?) drop bar shifters are a bit cheap and cheerful. The may pull less cable than others. Who knows.


 
I suspect actually its more to do with the difficulty getting the pads perfectly parallel to the rotor. I've tried the instructions of loosening the bolts, clamping the pads on the disc and then tightening the bolts up but when you squint down there is always a wedge gap rather than a parallel gap. Which means a bigger mean gap is needed to clear the rotor. There is also a slight wobble in the rotor which doesn't help either. Because of cable stretch when you pull the brake levers this matters on the Avids whereas on my Hopes as soon as the brakes bite the lever goes more or less solid and you just increase pressure on it without it moving closer to the bars.


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## Andy_R (4 Jun 2012)

Are you using full length compressionless housing? Have a look here for setup tips BB7 setup


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## Howard (4 Jun 2012)

I found the loosen clamp tighten method doesn't really work either. Instead I clamped the disc using the dials rather than the leaver - that approach worked for me.


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## GrumpyGregry (4 Jun 2012)

These are the rules I follow for BB7 road and drop bars.


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## Howard (4 Jun 2012)

Apart from the bits specific to speed-dial, obviously 

I followed this to begin with - it's good. There's also a page by Avid that spells it out that you shouldn't use anything but full-length compressionless cabling, yet plenty of bikes ship without it and the rumors persist that BB5/7s are difficult to set up and don't work. Go figure.


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## Red Light (4 Jun 2012)

I have just tried the instructions posted by Greg and Andy and both result in a lever that pulls to the bar very easily. And that is with it set up just one click out from rubbing.

Howard, you may well be right in that the bike uses no-name cables that came with it although they are both full length. However the movement of the brake lever is reflected in the movement of the caliper arm all the way to the brake lever being up against the bar so it can't all be cable stretch/housing compression with a big chunk of it coming from within the caliper itself. So the question is do I mess around with trying other cables or just switch to compressionless hydraulics?


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## GrumpyGregry (4 Jun 2012)

Red Light, I'd buy some full metal jacket cables and use them in combination with full metal jackets before going down the hydraulic route. They made a huge difference over the entry level jagwire outers on the bike originally.

and ideally you want inline adjusters fitted to.


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## MacB (4 Jun 2012)

Red Light said:


> I have just tried the instructions posted by Greg and Andy and both result in a lever that pulls to the bar very easily. And that is with it set up just one click out from rubbing.


 
That seems extremely slack using the same setup I actually back the pads off a bit further than I need to allowing for more lever movement. Two thoughts spring to mind and apologies if you've tested this already:-

1. when I touch a brake lever my calipers actuate immediately, there is no loss in the system. To achieve this on the rear brake I had to tinker for longer and be a bit more robust in the setup process.

2. you mention earlier about the caliper not aligning to the rotor correctly, this gave me terrible trouble on one bike as I was new to discs etc. Following an online tip I tried mounting the wheel and then the adaptor only, no caliper. What became instantly apparent was that the disc brake tabs weren't aligned correctly. We're talking 3-4mm here and using the caliper mounting bolts to correct for this meant the pads had to be a long way out to avoid rubbing. I sorted this with a spacer washer on one of the adaptor mounting bolts. This brought the adaptor almost square to the rotor and the caliper adjustment was easy after that.


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## Red Light (4 Jun 2012)

MacB said:


> That seems extremely slack using the same setup I actually back the pads off a bit further than I need to allowing for more lever movement. Two thoughts spring to mind and apologies if you've tested this already:-
> 
> 1. when I touch a brake lever my calipers actuate immediately, there is no loss in the system. To achieve this on the rear brake I had to tinker for longer and be a bit more robust in the setup process.
> 
> 2. you mention earlier about the caliper not aligning to the rotor correctly, this gave me terrible trouble on one bike as I was new to discs etc. Following an online tip I tried mounting the wheel and then the adaptor only, no caliper. What became instantly apparent was that the disc brake tabs weren't aligned correctly. We're talking 3-4mm here and using the caliper mounting bolts to correct for this meant the pads had to be a long way out to avoid rubbing. I sorted this with a spacer washer on one of the adaptor mounting bolts. This brought the adaptor almost square to the rotor and the caliper adjustment was easy after that.


 
I've been playing about a bit and think I understand it a bit better now. The pads are parallel to the rotor although its a bit fiddly to get them so. And the caliper arm moves with the brake lever so its not cable stretch/housing compression that's the problem. The rear brake is better than the front but then comparing the two its because the free travel of the rear brake lever is much further than the front. Basically the big downshift paddle on the front brake lever hits the bar well before the brake lever on its own would. And that restricted travel makes the difference. I guess I could go US style front brake on the right but that's not a good idea in an emergency when you've been brought up on the opposite all your life.


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## MacB (4 Jun 2012)

Hmmm, theoretically the front should be easier to set up and I have one lot in combination with Shimano 105 10 speed STIs so the same sort of shift paddle thing. Just checked on mine and due to the splay of my bars and lever alignment the shift paddle can't contact the bars anyway. But actuating the lever in the garage it comes to a stop with the paddle approx 20mm from the bars. So it would be closer under heavy braking on the road, but not that much.

Another quick test is to dial both pads in fully so that the wheel can't move. Then try, fairly gently, to move the brake lever, it shouldn't move at all.

Another thought could be your bars and the positioning of the levers, maybe a small tweak would allow the shift paddle to pass on the outside of the bars.

Finally, and apologies again if this is too obvious/stupid, but you have paired the correct calipers with the correct levers re pull ratio haven't you? The BB7s come in a road and a MTB version, or silver/red compared to black/red, mxismatching caliper and lever could create what you're experiencing.


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## Red Light (4 Jun 2012)

MacB said:


> Finally, and apologies again if this is too obvious/stupid, but you have paired the correct calipers with the correct levers re pull ratio haven't you? The BB7s come in a road and a MTB version, or silver/red compared to black/red, mxismatching caliper and lever could create what you're experiencing.


 
The manufacture has paired them so I assume they've got it right.


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## MacB (4 Jun 2012)

Red Light said:


> The manufacture has paired them so I assume they've got it right.


 
Doh, it's the Versa levers, not ones I've used but my understanding is your calipers should be silver(I believe), if they are then it's not cable pull. Or at least it's only cable pull if the are quite different to other road levers.

Well I'm stumped, the amount of lever pull I get, mentioned above, is after I've dialled the pads out further than just not rubbing. So about 3 clicks away from the point there is noise, on both sides. That's personal preference I can adjust them so that they bite with a lot less lever travel, but that feels a bit too on/off to me.

I followed the advice from Gregs link in post #9, even buying a dremel tool to square the cable outers and using Goodridge compressionless outer. Apart from the usual familiarisation process with a new product my only issue was the brake tabs misalignment I mentioned as well.

Maybe worth a search to see if others have had issues with the alfine shifter paddle or the cable pull of the levers.


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## Howard (6 Jun 2012)

Red: buy a travel agent for your front. Will give you more pull and more margin for set-up error. Bit of a kludge. If you are still not happy then get the Hope system.


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## Alun (6 Jun 2012)

Would it help to reposition the levers on the bars to give more available lever travel? ie if the drops are not a constant radius when viewed from the side, such as some "anatomical" shaped drops.


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## Red Light (9 Jun 2012)

Have now swapped over to the Hope V-Twin and what a difference. Very easy to fit and now the brake lever goes back until it stops and then doesn't move any closer to the bar as you squeeze it harder and brake harder. Much better braking too and no occasional rubbing noises. Well worth the investment IMO. Anyone interested in some lightly used Avid BB7's? Front and rear calipers and 160mm rotors. No cables and no adapter posts but fitted with organic pads and comes with spare pair of sintered pads.


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## Howard (9 Jun 2012)

How much do you want for them? I'm tempted. I need some more rotors and it could be useful to have a few pads / calipers spare.


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## benb (27 Jun 2012)

Roll on hydraulic discs with drops. Anyone know when that will be?


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## benb (27 Jun 2012)

Red Light said:


> Have now swapped over to the Hope V-Twin and what a difference. Very easy to fit and now the brake lever goes back until it stops and then doesn't move any closer to the bar as you squeeze it harder and brake harder. Much better braking too and no occasional rubbing noises. Well worth the investment IMO. Anyone interested in some lightly used Avid BB7's? Front and rear calipers and 160mm rotors. No cables and no adapter posts but fitted with organic pads and comes with spare pair of sintered pads.


 
Can you give a brief overview of how easy it was to set up, and what to watch out for? I might do this on my Croix de Fer.


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## Red Light (27 Jun 2012)

benb said:


> Can you give a brief overview of how easy it was to set up, and what to watch out for? I might do this on my Croix de Fer.


 
Fitting them was a breeze. Take off the old brake calipers but leave the mounts in place (no need to buy the Hope ones, the Avid ones work fine. I swapped for the Hope discs but the Avid ones work fine too if you don't want to buy those. Push some of the cable through the outer but don't pull it out or you will need to take the bar tape off and remount it all to get the cable back through the outer at the brake lever. Bolt the new calipers in place and mount the manifold unit bracket (but not the manifold under the stem. Work out the cable outer length and cut it off then push the inner back through (doesn't matter if you cut the inner too as long as you do it with six inches or so sticking out at the lever end). Slide it through the manifold, pull tight and tighten up the brass ferrule on each side. Mount the manifold and then comes the only tricky part - staring down through the gap in the back of the caliper and trying to centre it on the disk and getting the wheel to run freely without rubbing.. Once you've done that go out and bed them in but don't forget to allow for long stopping distances when you first start.


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## black'n'yellow (29 Jun 2012)

benb said:


> Roll on hydraulic discs with drops. Anyone know when that will be?


 
you can do it now - with a converter...

http://www.trpbrakes.com/category.php?productid=1141&catid=185&subcat=0

Hope makes a smaller one, but I can't find a link to it...


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## MacB (29 Jun 2012)

black'n'yellow said:


> you can do it now - with a converter...
> 
> http://www.trpbrakes.com/category.php?productid=1141&catid=185&subcat=0
> 
> Hope makes a smaller one, but I can't find a link to it...


 
Would that be the Hope V Twin in the thread title?


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## black'n'yellow (29 Jun 2012)

MacB said:


> Would that be the Hope V Twin in the thread title?


 
yes - the thread has now gone full circle...


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## Andy_R (29 Jun 2012)

benb said:


> Roll on hydraulic discs with drops. Anyone know when that will be?





black'n'yellow said:


> yes - the thread has now gone full circle...


Isn't it fun when people don't read the original posts in a thread


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## benb (2 Jul 2012)

Red Light said:


> Fitting them was a breeze. Take off the old brake calipers but leave the mounts in place (no need to buy the Hope ones, the Avid ones work fine. I swapped for the Hope discs but the Avid ones work fine too if you don't want to buy those. Push some of the cable through the outer but don't pull it out or you will need to take the bar tape off and remount it all to get the cable back through the outer at the brake lever. Bolt the new calipers in place and mount the manifold unit bracket (but not the manifold under the stem. Work out the cable outer length and cut it off then push the inner back through (doesn't matter if you cut the inner too as long as you do it with six inches or so sticking out at the lever end). Slide it through the manifold, pull tight and tighten up the brass ferrule on each side. Mount the manifold and then comes the only tricky part - staring down through the gap in the back of the caliper and trying to centre it on the disk and getting the wheel to run freely without rubbing.. Once you've done that go out and bed them in but don't forget to allow for long stopping distances when you first start.



Great, thanks. I may well give that a go.


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## Howard (3 Jul 2012)

Red Light said:


> Mount the manifold and then comes the only tricky part - staring down through the gap in the back of the caliper and trying to centre it on the disk and getting the wheel to run freely without rubbing.. Once you've done that go out and bed them in but don't forget to allow for long stopping distances when you first start.


 
Can't you use the old 'loosen the caliper mounting bolts, squeeze and hold brake leaver, tighten caliper mounting bolts' trick to do this in one easy step?


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## Red Light (3 Jul 2012)

Howard said:


> Can't you use the old 'loosen the caliper mounting bolts, squeeze and hold brake leaver, tighten caliper mounting bolts' trick to do this in one easy step?


 
No, doesn't work because both brake pads can move meaning you don't end up centred. It only really works for systems where one brake pad is fixed.


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## MacB (3 Jul 2012)

Red Light said:


> No, doesn't work because both brake pads can move meaning you don't end up centred. It only really works for systems where one brake pad is fixed.


 
I think you have that back to front


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## Red Light (3 Jul 2012)

MacB said:


> I think you have that back to front


 
Explain?


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## Howard (3 Jul 2012)

It works for brakes where both pads move (i.e. hydraulic) but not brakes where one pad is fixed (i.e. cable pulls that aren't dual bangers).

You can kludge it to work with a fixed RHS pad by adjusting the RHS pad in a few clicks before pulling off the trick, then backing the pad out again by the same amount of clicks.


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## MacB (3 Jul 2012)

Red Light said:


> Explain?


 
Well, as you put it so nicely....the centering method for hydraulics is to loosen the mounting bolts, actuate the brake and then tighten the bolts while keeping the brake actuated. Because both pads are pushed in equally this will centre the caliper allowing maximum clearance both sides. This assumes that the pads are moving reely and retracting fully and the caliper mount is true as is the rotor.

With cable actuated, and I've only personally done the BB7, then you have one fixed pad and one that moves. So you set the relationship of rotor to fixed pad, with BB7 that's recommended as off centre. Mine have the rotor closer to the fixed side of the caliper and then the moving pad actuates the brake more progressively and with less rotor bend.


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## Red Light (3 Jul 2012)

MacB said:


> Well, as you put it so nicely....the centering method for hydraulics is to loosen the mounting bolts, actuate the brake and then tighten the bolts while keeping the brake actuated. Because both pads are pushed in equally this will centre the caliper allowing maximum clearance both sides. This assumes that the pads are moving reely and retracting fully and the caliper mount is true as is the rotor.
> 
> With cable actuated, and I've only personally done the BB7, then you have one fixed pad and one that moves. So you set the relationship of rotor to fixed pad, with BB7 that's recommended as off centre. Mine have the rotor closer to the fixed side of the caliper and then the moving pad actuates the brake more progressively and with less rotor bend.


 
Exactly. With the BB7s you wind in the fixed pad a bit, clamp it with the moving pad, tighten the bolts and then wind the fixed pad out again to get the necessary clearance. On the hydraulics both pads can move so when you clamp the rotor with the pads the pads could be anywhere relative to the caliper body and will move about if you put any pressure on the caliper body. When you release the pads they may or may not have enough distance to retract to give clearance. Hope cover it in a video on their website - http://blip.tv/play/gpkd4JwkAA. The first screen says "You can't centralise a caliper correctly by loosening the bolts, pumping the lever and retightening the bolts" 

But then perhaps Hope, like me, don't know what they are talking about. But thank you anyway for now editing that assertion out of your post above.


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## MacB (3 Jul 2012)

Red Light said:


> Exactly. With the BB7s you wind in the fixed pad a bit, clamp it with the moving pad, tighten the bolts and then wind the fixed pad out again to get the necessary clearance. On the hydraulics both pads can move so when you clamp the rotor with the pads the pads could be anywhere relative to the caliper body and will move about if you put any pressure on the caliper body. When you release the pads they may or may not have enough distance to retract to give clearance. Hope cover it in a video on their website - http://blip.tv/play/gpkd4JwkAA. The first screen says "You can't centralise a caliper correctly by loosening the bolts, pumping the lever and retightening the bolts"
> 
> But then perhaps Hope, like me, don't know what they are talking about. But thank you anyway for now editing that assertion out of your post above.


 
???...nah stuff it, figure it out for yourself


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## benb (4 Jul 2012)

Red Light said:


> Exactly. With the BB7s you wind in the fixed pad a bit, clamp it with the moving pad, tighten the bolts and then wind the fixed pad out again to get the necessary clearance. On the hydraulics both pads can move so when you clamp the rotor with the pads the pads could be anywhere relative to the caliper body and will move about if you put any pressure on the caliper body. When you release the pads they may or may not have enough distance to retract to give clearance. Hope cover it in a video on their website - http://blip.tv/play/gpkd4JwkAA. The first screen says "You can't centralise a caliper correctly by loosening the bolts, pumping the lever and retightening the bolts"
> 
> But then perhaps Hope, like me, don't know what they are talking about. But thank you anyway for now editing that assertion out of your post above.


 
All I can say is that loosening the callipers, hitting the brakes, then tightening the callipers, has always worked perfectly on my hydraulic discs on my hybrid.


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## Alun (4 Jul 2012)

benb said:


> All I can say is that loosening the callipers, hitting the brakes, then tightening the callipers, has always worked perfectly on my hydraulic discs on my hybrid.


 Yup, for me too!
It also squares the caliper up, so that the pads aren't toed in or out.


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## Red Light (4 Jul 2012)

benb said:


> All I can say is that loosening the callipers, hitting the brakes, then tightening the callipers, has always worked perfectly on my hydraulic discs on my hybrid.


 
Are they single or dual piston hydraulics? Some work like the BB7s with one pad fixed so it would work. But where both pads are floating unless you get lucky it will not centralise the disk in the caliper.


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## Howard (4 Jul 2012)

Yeah that's worked for me too, but having viewed the Hope video I can see how in certain situations it will yield less than perfect results, and if you've paid top dollar for Hope brakes, you should spend the time setting them up to be spot on.


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## benb (4 Jul 2012)

Red Light said:


> Are they single or dual piston hydraulics? Some work like the BB7s with one pad fixed so it would work. But where both pads are floating unless you get lucky it will not centralise the disk in the caliper.


 
Not sure. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that it's how I've always adjusted my brakes (with no problems) and as far as I know it's standard advice for MTB type hydraulic brakes.


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## NormanD (5 Sep 2012)

So what is your honest opinion on the hope brakes? I was looking at these as an upgrade option to my Boardman Team CX. I've been very pleased with the bog standard BB5's (only adjusted once since I bought the bike) and are now due for pad replacement.

I have a spare Marin CX frame I was looking to build into a winter hack and instead of using the Hope on them, might just switch the BB5's to this frame instead and add the hope to the Boardman. 

Ask before you buy is my motto


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