# Let's talk about tents.



## mickle (9 May 2018)

I'm in the market for a tent. I don't know what to look out for and what to avoid. What tent do you own - and why?


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## Heltor Chasca (9 May 2018)

Eureka Solo Plus 1 man.

Cheap. Sub £100 at the time. Can sit up in it. Light.


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## FishFright (9 May 2018)

Wild country zephyros 2, the weight's fine , room is fine , packing less so.

It probably wouldn't win any best tent ever awards but I've had zero problems.

I've used it quite a bit and it's fine.


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## classic33 (9 May 2018)

Two man Ultimate Tadpole, Vango Odyssey Micro 400, Vango Force Ten.

Where would you be camping and in what sort of weather?

The Tadpole, small tunnel tent
Has stayed standing in winds that have brought other tents down.
It's supposed to be able to sleep three, but that'd be pushing it. 
Lightweight back in it's day, packs small. 
Easy pitch.

Micro 400


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## DanZac (9 May 2018)

Vango banshee 200 and a Sil Hex Peak. Both excellent tents. The Hex Peak has sort of replaced the Vango as it's got a bit more room inside and is a tad lighter but is harder to pitch and cost at least twice the price. 
In my opinion you can't go far wrong with the banshee for occasional use, it's a good price has plenty of room for 1 and is light enough yet pretty robust for cycle touring and pitches all in one so no wet inner tent.


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## mickle (9 May 2018)

classic33 said:


> Two man Ultimate Tadpole, Vango Odyssey Micro 400, Vango Force Ten.
> 
> Where would you be camping and in what sort of weather?
> 
> ...


Scottish waether. In Scotland.


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## mickle (9 May 2018)

Thanks fellows!


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## classic33 (9 May 2018)

mickle said:


> Scottish waether. In Scotland.


Headroom important, and how many would be using it?

Used the Vango Odyssey micro in Scotland in summer and winter. Sleeps three with ease, and their equipment.


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## graham bowers (9 May 2018)

Macpac minaret, it has never let me down and its had lots of use in Scotland. . Was quite light in its day (2.6 Kg) and was bought as a top specification top quality backpacking tent. Its a 2 man tunnel tent that can be erected inner and outer together, they are attached by velcro. If you put it up when they are joined, it is very very quick to do. But it can be separated, which is handy sometimes, for example if you need to collapse a wet tent where the flysheet is wet but the inner is not - if you collapse a wet tent all in one, it all gets wet. A tunnel tent gives you lots of volume, but is not freestanding as is a geodesic - so it always needs to be pegged out. It has a smallish porch but the inner can be pulled back into its self temporarily to give more cooking space. Modern tents of a similar sixe come out a lot lighter now but the groundsheets are very thin and do get any durability you have to buy a footprint. My brother has a force 10 nitro lite with footprint and proper pegs (it was supplied with thin titanium pegs) so I expect my old macpac loses out by about a kilo, or a big water bottle.


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## Drago (10 May 2018)

A Vango 5/6 betpth thing. Well made, well price, and spot on for 3 folk. More appropriate for cycling I have a 2 berth Vango dome tent job, which ticks the boxes for price and weight, not that I use it much any more.


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## slowmotion (10 May 2018)

We still have a Saunders Jetpacker Plus . Two people, about 1.8kg. I lugged it down the GR20 in Corsica a while back. It's pretty bomb-proof and was about the lightest I could find at the time, but it's little more than a weatherproof shelter, all we needed for mountain walking. My only advice would be not to believe any manufacturer's idea of person capacity. They are hopelessly optimistic. Oh, and do yourself a favour....choose the very lightest you can find.

Here's an article that may help.

http://hikingmastery.com/top-pick/best-backpacking-tent.html


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## raleighnut (10 May 2018)




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## Vantage (10 May 2018)

I'm assuming this is for cycle touring as opposed to shoving in the back of a car?
I have a Coleman Avior X2. Bought it in 2012 because it was on discount at Amazon (£65). I also liked the weight (2.6kg) and the two door design. One at the front and another at the side. It also has a small porch area at the front for storing the panniers etc. High hydrostatic head of 5000 (I think) and small pack size make it ideal.
Why they stopped making it I'll never understand.
So good that I'm buying the 3 person version second hand at the weekend from another forum member. 
I think Vango's Banshee is the closest tent to it in design terms.


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## F70100 (10 May 2018)

Tent history for UK cycle and motorcycle touring:

Vango Banshee 200; bought because it was/is cheap, 2.3kgs. Easy to manage in dry weather but getting in with wet clothing, I found I didn’t have space to keep everything else dry.

Vango Banshee 300; cheap, 2.9kgs. Solved above issue for me.

Hilleberg Nallo 2GT; 2.9kgs, but with very large porch. Even more space for same mass as Banshee 300. Bought second hand. Sold Banshee 300 on eBay for what I had paid for it.

Hilleberg Akto; 1.6kgs. Bought second hand but unused from an acquaintance. A bit more space than Banshee 200, and stronger. Sold 200 on eBay for a tenner less than I’d paid for it.

Hilleberg’s not cheap but I like having them.


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## MontyVeda (10 May 2018)

mickle said:


> I'm in the market for a tent. I don't know what to look out for and what to avoid. What tent do you own - and why?


My current tent* is a bit on the small side for someone 6'+ ...but it's small pack size and the fact that it's got two doors makes it almost ideal. No more sweltering at 6am on a sunny summer morning, just open both doors a tad and there's a lovely through draft that allows me to lie in for hours. I don't think I'd ever go back to a single door tent again.

*Highlander Glen Orchy, similar to the Vango Banshee... which may well be its replacement.


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## Dave Davenport (10 May 2018)

We were thinking of replacing our Vango Halo 200 for this year, it's six years old and has been put up about 150 times. We checked it over last weekend and the only thing wrong is a couple of very small holes in the ground sheet so we decided to use it for at least one more year (if it's very wet we'll stick one of the plastic bike bags under it). It's been a good tent, stayed dry in some very heavy rain, openings both sides which make for better ventalation in hot weather (not such an issue in Scotland I know), pitches in one in under five minutes and is fairly roomy with good headroom. I reckon you've got to pay a lot more for anything remotely better.


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## Crankarm (10 May 2018)

mickle said:


> I'm in the market for a tent. I don't know what to look out for and what to avoid. What tent do you own - and why?



Usually it is you who gives the information detailing your requirements and people then make recommendations rather than you saying tell us what you bought and why. Bizarre.


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## classic33 (10 May 2018)

[QUOTE 5239665, member: 9609"]I have a green one, can't remember name or make! 
super lightweight job (about 850g) super expensive and not very good in high winds, wonderful in good conditions though - great for wild camping on the tops

think a well known cyclist (can't remember his name either) used one for his first round the world record but it fell to bits in australia, 
View attachment 408592
[/QUOTE]
Saunders Spacepacker?


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## Howyadoinoutthere (10 May 2018)

I think that tent is a Terra Nova Laser Competition 1. I had one for a cycle tour through France. It was excellent.


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## Blue Hills (11 May 2018)

Vantage said:


> I'm assuming this is for cycle touring as opposed to shoving in the back of a car?
> I have a Coleman Avior X2. Bought it in 2012 because it was on discount at Amazon (£65). I also liked the weight (2.6kg) and the two door design. One at the front and another at the side. It also has a small porch area at the front for storing the panniers etc. High hydrostatic head of 5000 (I think) and small pack size make it ideal.
> Why they stopped making it I'll never understand.
> So good that I'm buying the 3 person version second hand at the weekend from another forum member.
> I think Vango's Banshee is the closest tent to it in design terms.


And I've remembered the poles this time!
Lots of great camping and cycling stuff is discontinued.


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## Blue Hills (11 May 2018)

Dave Davenport said:


> We were thinking of replacing our Vango Halo 200 for this year, it's six years old and has been put up about 150 times. We checked it over last weekend and the only thing wrong is a couple of very small holes in the ground sheet so we decided to use it for at least one more year (if it's very wet we'll stick one of the plastic bike bags under it). It's been a good tent, stayed dry in some very heavy rain, openings both sides which make for better ventalation in hot weather (not such an issue in Scotland I know), pitches in one in under five minutes and is fairly roomy with good headroom. I reckon you've got to pay a lot more for anything remotely better.


Yes, I would very likely have gone with this if I hadn't fallen in love with my Robens Lodge2.

By the by mickle, so that we can give best advice, can you say how many folk and how much stuff you hope to get in this tent?


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## mickle (11 May 2018)

Crankarm said:


> Usually it is you who gives the information detailing your requirements and people then make recommendations rather than you saying tell us what you bought and why. Bizarre.



So sorry your highness.

I'm a human (cyclist) sleeping out doors on the earth's surface (?) during weather. I suppose I'll be wanting to carry the tent with me on the bike every day rather than, say, buy a new one at every destination. So I'm presuming it'll want to be opaque and not water soluble. It'll need to fit a large man and his gunt, uh, weigh less than a heavy thing and be able to repel spiders and zombies. 

I don't know, that's why I'm asking.


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## MichaelW2 (11 May 2018)

I have used a Gelhert Solo in mild conditions, cheap, small, lightweight, no headroom, glass fibre poles broke but Gelhert sent better replacement poles, so first class product support.
For a longer duration N European tour I bought a Hilleberg Akto. Expensive, strong, very good in storms and high winds, good enough headroom and porch space. Easy to put up and down with pegs. Possible on hard ground if you can find stones/logs to secure the guy lines. Poor ventilation in warmer conditions, porch flaps flap around so no porch cooking. By modern standards quite heavy for its size.


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## classic33 (11 May 2018)

mickle said:


> So sorry your highness.
> 
> I'm a human (cyclist) sleeping out doors on the earth's surface (?) during weather. I suppose I'll be wanting to carry the tent with me on the bike every day rather than, say, buy a new one at every destination. So I'm presuming it'll want to be opaque and not water soluble. It'll need to fit a large man and his gunt, uh,* weigh less than a heavy thing* and be able to repel spiders and zombies.
> 
> I don't know, that's why I'm asking.


Rules out the Icelandic then!


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## Blue Hills (11 May 2018)

Forgive me asking mickle, what's gunt? Typo, forum prude censor or something I need to/should know?


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## Andy_R (11 May 2018)

Blue Hills said:


> Forgive me asking mickle, what's gunt? Typo, forum prude censor or something I need to/should know?


It aint pretty...think of a beer belly gone south....


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## User10119 (11 May 2018)

mickle said:


> I'm in the market for a tent. I don't know what to look out for and what to avoid. What tent do you own - and why?




The Cub's Birthday Tent - I bought this second hand for a few quid as a birthday present for the Eldest - possibly his 10th? Anyway, it works for 2 campers, or 1 adult and 2 kids, reasonably well and is bike-transportable. Inner first pitching from memory, which is not my preference.

Sweaty Betty - a Black's Octane 3 of quite venerable age, who isn't perhaps as waterproof as she once was, bought from some mad cyclists on the Internet in Autumn 2011. I've shared her with 2 Cubs and had room enough, and she's just about small enough to be OK when solo camping but I think her days may be nearly done...

The TeenyTinyOne - a Laser Comp, very light but a touch snug and not great for claustrophobics. No headroom, even for a shortarse like me. I've camped solo in it at LEL Loughton and on Arran, but that was in days when I was thinner and bendier and I don't think I'd find it at all comfy at the moment. Made out of fairy fart and packs down tiny so it worked well for the teen as a pup tent when we went on a family mini cycle camping tour in the summer.
The Behemoth - a theoretical 6 berther, with one mahoosive bedroom and one smaller one and a living area in between, this is a tent you can stand up in and definitely one for car camping only. Currently residing in Cumbria!

A Vango-can't-remember-what... I acquired this, also second hand, as a better for me option that the TeenyTinyOne. Not yet tested!
All of the above (well, apart from the behemoth at the mo) are located not far from mickle-ville I suspect, so testing/loans entirely possible.

My favourite ever tent that I've used was a Vaude Mk 3*. Small enough for cycle camping, palatial for two people, dead easy to pitch, decent headroom, good access, vestibules for storage. I've had tent-lust about it ever since!


*that @Siclo's extraordinarily wonderful parents, Marj and the much missed Alan, brought to Mildenhall together with every camping luxury you could need when I attempted a few nights under canvas for a toddler's "My First Camping Trip" back in 2010. They also collected the SmallestCub and me from a mutually convenient train station and gave us a lift there (and back after!) and fed me umpteen cups of coffee and generally looked after the useless-camper extraordinarily well all weekend.

The Cub still remembers this "My First Power Tools" experience, and he was only three at the time!
View attachment 408686


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## mickle (11 May 2018)

Thanks for the kind offer Crinkly :-)


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## Blue Hills (11 May 2018)

If, and i now get the feeling it is, just for you and some gear, and to go on the back of a bike mickle I would go for the Halo 2 as recommended above. Or the Lodge 2. Both as I understand it essentially geodesic and free standing.


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## classic33 (11 May 2018)

From Vango's own site, on tent types.
http://www.vango.co.uk/gb/blog/45_which-tent-shape-is-right-for-you.html


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## Ming the Merciless (11 May 2018)

After seeing Ray Mears using one I got an old parachute for about £30. You need a clearing in woods somewhere so you can throw some cord over a branch. But works great, loads of space, and if you can find some stones a fire in the middle is fine. Not for use if using normal sanitised campsites.


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## MichaelW2 (12 May 2018)

YukonBoy said:


> Not for use if using normal sanitised campsites.



That is the case with many of the ultralight tarp tents and hammock tents that work well in the woods.


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## Blue Hills (12 May 2018)

YukonBoy said:


> After seeing Ray Mears using one I got an old parachute for about £30. You need a clearing in woods somewhere so you can throw some cord over a branch. But works great, loads of space, and if you can find some stones a fire in the middle is fine. Not for use if using normal sanitised campsites.


This does unfortunately drag back images from teenage studies of lord of the flies, decaying pilot etc.


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## Blue Hills (12 May 2018)

Was being modest about lodge 2 up above. I know it is. Have freecamped in it and also sat out storms in it. If you are interested mickle I can pm you a link to a discussion of its many merits in another forum.


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## mickle (12 May 2018)

Blue Hills said:


> Was being modest about lodge 2 up above. I know it is. Have freecamped in it and also sat out storms in it. If you are interested mickle I can pm you a link to a discussion of its many merits in another forum.


Thank you, yes please.


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## Blue Hills (12 May 2018)

Will do mickle later today or tomorrow when on a proper keyboard.

It really is a great tent.


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## Siclo (13 May 2018)

[QUOTE 5240672, member: 10119"]My favourite ever tent that I've used was a Vaude Mk 3*. Small enough for cycle camping, palatial for two people, dead easy to pitch, decent headroom, good access, vestibules for storage. I've had tent-lust about it ever since![/QUOTE]

I have that tent now, in a lifetime of camping with everything from tiny expedition affairs through to frame tents you can park your car in (yes really) it's the most versatile and easily pitched tent I've ever come across.

My latest one is a Coleman Cabral, it's not perfect but it's massive upside is the blackout bedroom, lovely lie-ins and cool and dark enough for afternoon siestas.


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## Blue Hills (13 May 2018)

To clarify, is this tent still current?


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## classic33 (13 May 2018)




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## Blue Hills (13 May 2018)

Sorry classic i wasn't clear.

I meant the vaude.


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## classic33 (13 May 2018)

Blue Hills said:


> Sorry classic i wasn't clear.
> 
> I meant the vaude.


Not on their site https://www.vaude.com/en-GB/Products/Tents/3-Person/


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## Blue Hills (13 May 2018)

Yes i thought so.

One might ask why it was discontinued, though I fear I know.

Have seen some nice vaude tents in my local cotswold.

Anyway, sorted for life with robens lodge 2. Folks please shout if that is going to be canned and I will go grab another.


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## snorri (13 May 2018)

Not the cheapest, but I have had good service from my Terra Nova tents. Their 'Solar' served me well, including some wild weather in Iceland, but after a few years I decided to go for the 'Laserlite' which as the name suggest is very lightweight and so even more suitable for cycle touring but nevertheless well able to stand stormy weather.
Both have a porch area with enough space to get all (4)panniers and bar bag off the bike and undercover at night.


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## andrew_s (14 May 2018)

I use a Hilleberg Akto (1 person single transverse pole) or a Hilleberk Allak (2 person dome).

My tent requirements are
a) storm proof
b) easy & quick to put up by me on my own, even if it's in strong winds
c) not dependent on good pegging (i.e. flexibilty of peg placement, so if there's a buried rock where the peg should ideally go, another nearby location will do)
d) sufficient porch space to accomodate all my panniers (the saddlebag stays on the bike), and still allow entry/exit space, or cooking space.
e) enough height to sit up. I have no problem staying reasonably still, and don't really need lots of inner tent space
f) a side door rather than an end door.
g) the ability to close up and keep the weather out and the warm in (i.e. a Euro style tent, with a down to ground outer and not much mesh on the inner).

Previous tents have been...
Saunders Jetpacker (too coffin-like, dependent on good pegging)
Terra Nova Quasar (too big & heavy for bike use, died of PU coating rot on the outer)
A quick-pitch version of the Tadpole (too bulky for bike use, as the quick-pitch feature impacted on the pack size and the ability to easily separate inner/outer/poles)
A Terra Nova Solar (not strong enough - I didn't appreciate the pole hitting my head whilst I was sleeping).


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## classic33 (14 May 2018)

andrew_s said:


> I use a Hilleberg Akto (1 person single transverse pole) or a Hilleberk Allak (2 person dome).
> 
> My tent requirements are
> a) storm proof
> ...


Which manufacturer?


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## HobbesOnTour (14 May 2018)

andrew_s said:


> My tent requirements are
> 
> g) the ability to close up and keep the weather out and* the warm in* (i.e. a Euro style tent, with a down to ground outer and not much mesh on the inner).
> 
> .



Hi Andrew,
A bit of a philosophical question on this one....
I'e always thought that the purpose of a tent is to keep the worst of the elements off you - wind, rain & possibly snow as well as bugs & critters. But most especially dry.

I would think that the warmer the tent keeps you, the greater the condensation, especially in colder weather. The more condensation, the greater the risk of wet clothes/gear/inner, especially when packing up and moving on as we do on our bikes. My tent seldom stays in the same place for more than 1 night.

Do you find condensation to be a bigger issue in your "warm" tents?

And for others, is it the role of the tent to keep you warm or dry or.....?

Thanks!


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## Siclo (14 May 2018)

Blue Hills said:


> To clarify, is this tent still current?



There seem to be a few variations now, this is the closest one to mine https://www.vaude.com/en-GB/Products/Tents/3-Person/Mark-UL-3P?number=118064000



Blue Hills said:


> One might ask why it was discontinued, though I fear I know.



Go on then, educate me please.


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## Blue Hills (14 May 2018)

Because companies continuously "improve" reinvent stuff to maintain/improve margins. Inbuit obsolescence etc. Marketing etc. And fashion. Applies to lots of things, including cycling stuff. Life can be so much simpler if you hop out of this.

I stress that I am not particularly criticising vaude, they do much good stuff.

Edit, though not taking owt back from my above comment, i generally avoid anything labelled ultra light for cycle touring.

Thanks for your nice helpful post.


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## Blue Hills (14 May 2018)

Ps, excellent question hobbes, not so much philosophical (often bulllshit) as eminently practical. Look forward to replies.


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## classic33 (14 May 2018)

HobbesOnTour said:


> Hi Andrew,
> A bit of a philosophical question on this one....
> I'e always thought that the purpose of a tent is to keep the worst of the elements off you - wind, rain & possibly snow as well as bugs & critters. But most especially dry.
> 
> ...



The tents role is to keep me dry, the sleeping bag can keep me warm. 

You can lose a fair bit of body heat to the elements, so pitching flysheet only in windy conditions can keep you warm by just keeping you sheltered.

One reason a seperate inner is preferrable to a single skin tent is there is less condensation in the sleeping compartment.


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## graham bowers (15 May 2018)

HobbesOnTour said:


> Hi Andrew,
> A bit of a philosophical question on this one....
> I'e always thought that the purpose of a tent is to keep the worst of the elements off you - wind, rain & possibly snow as well as bugs & critters. But most especially dry.
> 
> ...


Tent to keep me dry. Sleeping bag and mat to keep me warm.

The airborne moisture in the tent that the occupants breath out overnight is in the region of a half a litre each, and ventilation is the way to control condensation from breath.


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## HobbesOnTour (15 May 2018)

graham bowers said:


> Tent to keep me dry. Sleeping bag and mat to keep me warm.
> 
> The airborne moisture in the tent that the occupants breath out overnight is in the region of a half a litre each, and ventilation is the way to control condensation from breath.



Hi Graham,
That's my thinking too.

In the case of a "warm" tent (by that I mean one with less mesh, or at least the option of covering up that mesh), is it right to assume that the warmer average temperature inside leads to more condensation than in a "colder" tent?


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## Profpointy (15 May 2018)

HobbesOnTour said:


> Hi Graham,
> That's my thinking too.
> 
> In the case of a "warm" tent (by that I mean one with less mesh, or at least the option of covering up that mesh), is it right to assume that the warmer average temperature inside leads to more condensation than in a "colder" tent?



Basically you need to leave enough of the inner unzipped to get an airflow. Even a Hilly, excellent as it may be, isn't magic, and this still applies. Otherwise, you'll get damp. "You cannea break the laws of physics" as a wise engineer once said.


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## graham bowers (15 May 2018)

HobbesOnTour said:


> Hi Graham,
> That's my thinking too.
> 
> In the case of a "warm" tent (by that I mean one with less mesh, or at least the option of covering up that mesh), is it right to assume that the warmer average temperature inside leads to more condensation than in a "colder" tent?



I think its fair to say that a tent with much mesh on the inner will be both colder and suffer less condensation within confines of the inner tent than one with less mesh. The reason it will be colder is because the ventilation through the mesh allows more air changes, so the concentration of water vapour in the air will be less. If the mesh were to be covered, then you could expect fewer air changes would lead to it being warmer and have a higher air moisture content and so the potential for condensation. I see the condensation being the result of higher moisture content in the air, and the warmer temperature is just another consequence of fewer air changes.


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## HobbesOnTour (16 May 2018)

Profpointy said:


> Basically you need to leave enough of the inner unzipped to get an airflow. Even a Hilly, excellent as it may be, isn't magic, and this still applies. Otherwise, you'll get damp. "You cannea break the laws of physics" as a wise engineer once said.





graham bowers said:


> I think its fair to say that a tent with much mesh on the inner will be both colder and suffer less condensation within confines of the inner tent than one with less mesh. The reason it will be colder is because the ventilation through the mesh allows more air changes, so the concentration of water vapour in the air will be less. If the mesh were to be covered, then you could expect fewer air changes would lead to it being warmer and have a higher air moisture content and so the potential for condensation. I see the condensation being the result of higher moisture content in the air, and the warmer temperature is just another consequence of fewer air changes.



Right so, if I'm understanding all this correctly, the warmer the tent, the more the condensation.

Why then is there a market for warmer tents? What's the advantage? 

If the advice is to have as much ventilation as possible, why then inhibit that ventilation in the design?


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## Blue Hills (16 May 2018)

Can't you also get dampness inside the tent if the air outside is particularly dewy/moist?

I awoke in my Lodge 2 a few months ago to find the outside of my sleeping bag sodden. I am pretty sure I had left some vents open but on getting out of the tent I did notice that the air seemed particularly heavy mosture. It hadn't rained though and my faithful Lodge 2 hadn't leaked, though from seeing my sleeping bag you would have thought it had.


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## HobbesOnTour (16 May 2018)

Blue Hills said:


> Can't you also get dampness inside the tent if the air outside is particularly dewy/moist?
> 
> I awoke in my Lodge 2 a few months ago to find the outside of my sleeping bag sodden. I am pretty sure I had left some vents open but on getting out of the tent I did notice that the air seemed particularly heavy mosture. It hadn't rained though and my faithful Lodge 2 hadn't leaked, though from seeing my sleeping bag you would have thought it had.



My take on this, is that when there's a lot more moisture in the air, then there's more propensity for condensation. In those cases, it's better to limit the ventilation (keep the wet air out) and suffer the condensation from the "unventilated" inner, which hopefully is less than the "ventilated" inner.

Maybe I've just answered my own question from my previous post? :-)


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## Blue Hills (16 May 2018)

Thanks for the reply hobbes.

You may well be right - but hell it's complicated! - maybe someone is working on a clever in/out mositure meter. Think I'll stick to venting the tent, taking whatever comes, and be thankfull that I don't use a down bag and have eventually decided not to move to one.


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## HobbesOnTour (16 May 2018)

Blue Hills said:


> Thanks for the reply hobbes.
> 
> You may well be right - but hell it's complicated! - maybe someone is working on a clever in/out mositure meter. Think I'll stick to venting the tent, taking whatever comes, and be thankfull that I don't use a down bag and have eventually decided not to move to one.



That's my thinking too!
I'd rather be cold than wet. If I'm cold, I can warm up. If I'm wet (or my gear is!) it's not so easy to get dry. And then I'll be cold and unable to warm back up.

My best tent was a cheapy tunnel tent with a bathtubfloor and the rest was mesh. Winter or summer never an issue with condensation. Stood up to massive storms, sometimes by the skin of its teeth! 
My newer tent says all the right things in its promo material, but condensation is an issue as is set-up.


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## Profpointy (16 May 2018)

HobbesOnTour said:


> Right so, if I'm understanding all this correctly, the warmer the tent, the more the condensation.
> 
> Why then is there a market for warmer tents? What's the advantage?
> 
> If the advice is to have as much ventilation as possible, why then inhibit that ventilation in the design?



Like anything it's a compromise.

1) Warmer tent - any tent is just giving you two layers of thin cloth, to keep the warm air in. I'd almost go as far as to say that all tents of similar size will be similarly warm, regardless of quality. (Obviously a bigger tent will feel colder as it'll take more of your body heat to warm it up)

2) You don't wan't "as much ventilation as possible" else, to be slightly silly about it, you could simply sleep under an umbrella. You want enough ventilation to allow water vapour (from your breath) out, but not so much ventilation that you get cold. Same principle as cracking a window open in a bedroom, or especially a bathroom, to avoid condensation. You don't fling the windows in your house open in the middle of winter, but do keep a bit of a fresh air thing going. Tents are the same. Unzip the inner a little bit to get enough airflow, but not so much that it's freezing. It's an art to get it just right. You need controllable ventilation, rather than lots. Zip everything up tight, and you'll get condesation. In the summer you need lots of ventilation to avoid getting too hot, but then need the mesh zipped up to keep bitey flies out. The better tents have a fly screen so you can still have airflow whilst closing it up against insects. Some, especially American brand, tents, have a lot of mesh in the inner, but without a covering layer, so aren't so good when it's cold as there's too much ventilation


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## Profpointy (16 May 2018)

Blue Hills said:


> Can't you also get dampness inside the tent if the air outside is particularly dewy/moist?
> 
> I awoke in my Lodge 2 a few months ago to find the outside of my sleeping bag sodden. I am pretty sure I had left some vents open but on getting out of the tent I did notice that the air seemed particularly heavy mosture. It hadn't rained though and my faithful Lodge 2 hadn't leaked, though from seeing my sleeping bag you would have thought it had.



I think the first bit is wrong. The cold air outside can only hold so much dampness, but the warmer air inside can hold more. Thus the warm, breath laden, damp air inside will condense out on the cold walls of the tent. Damp air from outside will not condense inside the tent - as it'll warm up and thus be able to hold even more damp. (I think)


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## graham bowers (16 May 2018)

HobbesOnTour said:


> Right so, if I'm understanding all this correctly, the warmer the tent, the more the condensation.
> 
> Why then is there a market for warmer tents? What's the advantage?
> 
> If the advice is to have as much ventilation as possible, why then inhibit that ventilation in the design?



I can't answer these questions. When picking a tent the attributes I consider are, in no particular order:

Stability in bad weather - normally i'd go for a 3 season tent.
Weight
Durability
Ease of pitching. I like the choice of inner first, outer first, both together.
Porch size
Established brand.

Warmth and condensation potential I've never even considered from the perspective of tent selection. My sleeping bag / liner / mat combination take care of warmth. I trust that a well designed tent will have sufficient ventilation. My tent has zippable ventilation high up at the foot end and at the door. If I get a bit of condensation from time to time its not the end of the day. It (the tent) has on occasion protected me well in some vile weather.

Context of all of the above is UK (including Scottish wild camping) / mainland Europe camping on foot or by bicycle. Normally March until October.

Having re-read your questions, is there a market for warmer tents, or put another way, are any tents being marketed as being "warmer"?


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## classic33 (16 May 2018)

The tent should be treated as shelter from the elements, with clothing/sleeping bag(s) providing the final heat trap to keep you warm.

An idea if you walk in small groups is an old tent outer, no poles or guy lines, and use that as a shelter when you stop. It'll keep the worst of the weather off you and provide a windbreak.


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## HobbesOnTour (17 May 2018)

Maybe I'm a bit of a tent nerd, but I'm enjoying this conversation! 

My understanding of the complex world of tents is;

In a typical tent, there is the fly the purpose of which is to keep the rain out and divert the wind. In snow it's supposed to keep the snow off you and in sun to protect you from the worst of the rays. It normally has some ventilation options to allow air to circulate.

Then there's the inner. At a minimum, that's supposed to keep the bugs out. 3/4 season tents will use less mesh than 1/2 season tents with a view to keeping the inner warmer. These 3/4 season tents will often incorporate a layer over the mesh that can be zipped off to increase ventilation.

Ventilation is required to prevent (minimise actually) condensation forming on the inside of the fly when the warmer air inside comes into contact with the colder air outside through the fly.

And of course there is the floor of the inner, sitting on the ground, or perhaps a footprint/groundsheet.

So, a question:

In a 3/4 season tent with less mesh and if the mesh that exists is covered there will be greater condensation, right? Is this due to less ventilation (because the lack of mesh means that the air coming from the vents in the fly cannot easily flow through the whole tent) or is it due to the "sealed" inner becoming warmer, and heating the air under the fly. Or a combination of the two? Or something else altogether?

In that scenario, if I unzip the covering on the mesh, all things being equal, I should have less condensation. Right?
So why are there covers on the mesh in the first place?
(This is what I was getting at mentioning a "market" for warmer tents.)

As I type, I'm thinking that if a tent is going to be pitched for a long time, then condensation on the fly is not such a big issue and a bit of extra warmth might be beneficial.

But if a tent is going to be packed up every day, then condensation is going to cause more problems. 

It seems to me that for what we do, cycle touring, we should be looking for tents with as much mesh as possible and as much ventilation in the fly as possible. 

And then we come to the floor. Heat from your body in close contact with the colder ground = condensation on the floor under your mat = damp/wet mat. If there's no chance to dry it out, then you've a wet mat the next night.
How to solve this? I don't think any ventilation will help here. I don't think the size of the tent is a factor either.
I use a Thermarest pad with a good insulation value, on top of a foil insulating sheet, on the floor of the tent that sits on a waterproof groundsheet. And the floor is still wet underneath. 

For context, I'm talking about Netherlands/Germany/Belgium, winter time, temperatures from 2/4 C to -8/-10.

Many thanks for all the contributions so far!


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## reppans (20 May 2018)

In my experience, in cold weather condensation is expected and is intended to form on the underneath of the fly of a double wall tent. If heavy enough, the condensation will bead on the inside of the fly and run down to the ground outside of the inner tent's bath tub floor... (ie. not drip on top of the inner tent). Below freezing, the condensation will be frost. 

The inner tent, whether all mesh or all fabric, will 'breath' allowing air humidity to pass through to fly. Therefore the inner tent will stay dry for the occupants and should not touch the fly as that's where water transfer will occur. The inner tent floor should generally not condense water (warm humid air rises). 

When taking down, frost and condensation on the fly can be shaken off and mopped up with a bandanna - with the bulk of the moisture off, it can sun dry quickly. Also no big deal if you pack the fly damp (but fold separately so it doesn't get anything else wet) - just don't ever leave it wet stored for days.


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## HobbesOnTour (20 May 2018)

Thanks for the reply.



reppans said:


> In my experience, in cold weather condensation is expected and is intended to form on the underneath of the fly of a double wall tent. If heavy enough, the condensation will bead on the inside of the fly and run down to the ground outside of the inner tent's bath tub floor... (ie. not drip on top of the inner tent). Below freezing, the condensation will be frost.



That's my understanding too. 




reppans said:


> The inner tent, whether all mesh or all fabric, will 'breath' allowing air humidity to pass through to fly. Therefore the inner tent will stay dry for the occupants and should not touch the fly as that's where water transfer will occur.



Here's where I want to dig a little deeper.
Does the proportion of mesh to non-mesh on the inner have an effect on the overall amount of condensation?
In simple terms, 2 identical flys pitched side by side, one with an inner that is almost 100% mesh and one with as little mesh as possible. 
Will these tents generate the same amount of condensation, or will one have less than the other? 
I'm thinking that the temperature in the enclosed inner will be warmer than the mesh inner. This warmer air will eventually migrate out to the fly and condense. Therefore the enclosed inner will generate more condensation. Or does the lack of mesh mean that there is less airflow from the inner to the fly, so even though warmer, there is less condensation on the fly?
My own experience is that by exposing as much mesh as possible will reduce the condensation on the fly. Back in March, temp about 3C I slept under a fly only on a groundsheet and had less issues with condensation on the fly.




reppans said:


> When taking down, frost and condensation on the fly can be shaken off and mopped up with a bandanna - with the bulk of the moisture off, it can sun dry quickly. Also no big deal if you pack the fly damp (but fold separately so it doesn't get anything else wet) - just don't ever leave it wet stored for days.



I always wipe :-)
But here's the thing - a tent that is an all-in-one pitch is fundamentally flawed because the fly will be wet with condensation which will then transfer to the inner on break-down.

The only way to avoid this is to remove the inner first and pack the fly separately, which defeats the purpose of an all-in-one pitch.

In every discussion of tents that I've seen, there are always debates about the best design/brand/tent with people swearing by (or indeed swearing at!) various tents.

What is hardly ever spoken about is how often people pitch and breakdown their tents.

For someone who is pitching their tent every day, then condensation is a bigger factor than for someone who pitches their tent every 3 days, for example. 

When I go off on my bike, I'm pitching my tent in a new location every day. 
I don't mind the cold, but I hate being wet off the bike, because invariably I will get cold and then it's harder to warm up. 

In winter time, the options to dry the tent are much less - less sun, shorter days. So, my logic (and here's where I'm looking for discussion) is that the best tent for cycle touring in colder weather is the one that generates the least condensation. Therefore 3-4 season tents should be out of the decision? A strong construction for the fly to keep wind and rain off you, an inner with a high mesh content and your sleeping mat/pad/bag keeps you warm.

And here we are back at the philosophical question!  Is it the purpose of the tent to keep you warm or dry?



reppans said:


> The inner tent floor should generally not condense water (warm humid air rises).



This is the only thing that in my experience I disagree with. All winter I've had issues with condensation on the floor, specifically under the mat. The only time I did not have an issue was when I didn't bother putting up the inner as a storm broke just as I was pitching the tent. My old tunnel tent with a thick, low tech floor never had these issues.
Anybody else have any input on this?


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## Blue Hills (20 May 2018)

HobbesOnTour said:


> But here's the thing - a tent that is an all-in-one pitch is fundamentally flawed because the fly will be wet with condensation which will then transfer to the inner on break-down.
> 
> The only way to avoid this is to remove the inner first and pack the fly separately, which defeats the purpose of an all-in-one pitch.



An excellent point. These days when moving on I always pack inner and fly separately - roll up the inner with its groundsheet and put it in the tent bag. Just stuff willy nilly the fly in a small light drybag. If room put that in the tent bag, if not pretty much anywhere else. Within 12 hours it will be up again to dry out. Apart from anythin6g else this avoids the palaver of rolling one inside the other with all the bother of checking that A doesn't touch B. Always makes me think of a technical jam rollypolly operation. Far faster to pack this way. And lack of faff is particularly welcome if free camping.

As a side issue, have always been suspicious of all in one pitching, and particularly those tents where the two bits are supposed to stay permanently connected. Sounds too "clever" and "designed" to me - Pretty sure I'd end up buggering something up and then it would be more of a problem to fix things.

Keep it simple has been my motto with both camping and cycling for the last few years.

If anyone has a good reason why your point is not a good/excellent one, feel free to post it of course.


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## reppans (20 May 2018)

IMHO, the proportion of inner tent mesh vs solid wall should not have a significant bearing on fly condensation - our bodies expel the same amount of moisture either way, and that's what is condensing on the fly. The fact that the solid wall might result in a few degrees warmer interior just means that that air might hold just a tiny bit more moisture at given point in time, but over the course of the night, both mesh and breathable solid will move about the same total body/breath moisture to the fly surface. The best way to minimize condensation on the fly would be to increase air circulation between the inner tent and fly, although I suspect too much circulation would both lose the insulation value of the dead airspace between the walls, and might even start a condensation problem on the inner wall. It's a compromise.

Good point on the all-in-one pitch tents - my mid w/nest can used that way, but my usual config (for space, access, bugs, rain) is fly and footprint only while awake. I only set-up my inner tent for sleeping.

I'm admittedly not a big winter camper, but have snow camped a few times... I just don't recall ever having a floor condensation/moisture issue, except where it has either dripped down from wall condensation, or pushed up though (compromised waterproofing) from the wet or evaporating ground. I always use footprints though (silnylon, tyvek or polycryo). 

You sure it's not coming up from the ground? I wouldn't think you'd have enough breath/body moisture circulating under a groundpad to condense.


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## classic33 (20 May 2018)

Anyone else use a survival bag under the groundsheet?


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## HobbesOnTour (20 May 2018)

Thanks for the reply.



reppans said:


> IMHO, the proportion of inner tent mesh vs solid wall should not have a significant bearing on fly condensation - our bodies expel the same amount of moisture either way, and that's what is condensing on the fly. The fact that the solid wall might result in a few degrees warmer interior just means that that air might hold just a tiny bit more moisture at given point in time, but over the course of the night, both mesh and breathable solid will move about the same total body/breath moisture to the fly surface.


That makes perfect sense, but it's not matching my experience. If I leave the mesh covered in my "expedition" standard tent I will have more condensation on the fly and on the floor, than if I don't. In comparison, my cheapy tunnel (all mesh) has no such issues. Admittedly, the tunnel is larger than the other.



reppans said:


> Good point on the all-in-one pitch tents - my mid w/nest can used that way, but my usual config (for space, access, bugs, rain) is fly and footprint only while awake. I only set-up my inner tent for sleeping.


As simple as it is, that is a very clever idea! 



reppans said:


> You sure it's not coming up from the ground? I wouldn't think you'd have enough breath/body moisture circulating under a groundpad to condense.


I'm as sure as I can be that the floor is not leaking. As I said above, leaving the mesh covered will result in a wet floor. Opening up the mesh will mean only the floor under the mat is damp.



classic33 said:


> Anyone else use a survival bag under the groundsheet?


I use building insulating foil under my sleeping pad, on the floor, which is on top of a groundsheet.


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## Blue Hills (20 May 2018)

What's this building insulation foil hobbes?

Sounds interesting, though I fear that it might not be economically available in small bits.

Unless you are in the trade.


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## classic33 (20 May 2018)

Blue Hills said:


> What's this building insulation foil hobbes?
> 
> Sounds interesting, though I fear that it might not be economically available in small bits.
> 
> Unless you are in the trade.


Wickes sell it.

Thermawrap is one brand.


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## classic33 (20 May 2018)

As for whether the tent is for protecting you from the weather or keeping you warm, try sitting in your tent with no clothes on when its cold, wet and windy.


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## Blue Hills (20 May 2018)

Thanks classic.

You mean this?

https://www.wickes.co.uk/Wickes-Thermal-Insulation-Foil-Roll-600mm-x-8m/p/210022

Tho you have to buy a fair bit.
So may be better using the dosh for a better mat.


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## Blue Hills (20 May 2018)

Or this?

https://www.wickes.co.uk/Thermawrap-Radiator-Reflective-Foam-Foil-500mm-x-5m/p/151452


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## classic33 (20 May 2018)

It's dry lining and underfloor insulation, dearer still.
https://www.wickes.co.uk/Thermawrap-General-Purpose-Foil-Wrap-1000mm-x-7m/p/145707

But which way would you use it. Reflect the bodyheat back or keep the cold out?

All I've ever used is the survival bag under the groundsheet.


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## Blue Hills (20 May 2018)

Thanks for that classic.

But for me makes more sense to spend that money on a better mat.

Got my latest mat, from a big name supplier, for £15 from tkmaxx


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## HobbesOnTour (20 May 2018)

classic33 said:


> As for whether the tent is for protecting you from the weather or keeping you warm, try sitting in your tent with no clothes on when its cold, wet and windy.



You're kind of making my point - the tent keeps the weather off, your gear keeps you warm.


Blue Hills said:


> Thanks classic.
> 
> You mean this?
> 
> ...


I'm in Holland, so a different brand, but similar type stuff.
I used some leftover from some housework. ? Used some to make some insulation for my trangia pots too, which work a treat.


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## classic33 (20 May 2018)

HobbesOnTour said:


> You're kind of making my point - the tent keeps the weather off, your gear keeps you warm.
> 
> I'm in Holland, so a different brand, but similar type stuff.
> I used some leftover from some housework. ? Used some to make some insulation for my trangia pots too, which work a treat.


You ever made a "Bothy Bag" from a tent outer? Used on group walks to keep you out of the weather whilst you stop.


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## graham bowers (21 May 2018)

I don't have anything to add to the condensation topic, but have a comment the pitch inner first / outer first or both discussion. The macpac minaret can be pitched all of the three ways, so offers flexibility. When the test is packed dry, which is often the case, pitch together is a very quick and simple affair.


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## HobbesOnTour (21 May 2018)

classic33 said:


> You ever made a "Bothy Bag" from a tent outer? Used on group walks to keep you out of the weather whilst you stop.


Nope. Never made a bothy bag. But the logic seems clear.



graham bowers said:


> I don't have anything to add to the condensation topic, but have a comment the pitch inner first / outer first or both discussion. The macpac minaret can be pitched all of the three ways, so offers flexibility. When the test is packed dry, which is often the case, pitch together is a very quick and simple affair.



My cheapy Coleman can be pitched with or without inner with no issue at all. According to the instructions it's fly first, but in practise all in one works fine.

My Exped Orion can be pitched in 3 ways - all-in-one, fly first or indeed inner only. However, fly first is very finnicky, and in less than ideal conditions, it's downright frustrating!

I've never been confident enough in the weather to try inner only!


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## Blue Hills (21 May 2018)

My Lodge 2 is definitely inner only erect first. Then chuck the outer over the top.

I thought it would be a problem but in practice it isn't.

Also, in practice with regard to worries about putting it up in the rain I take reassurance from the surprising but true factoid I was told on taking up commuting by Vespa many years ago - despite the reputation of British weather there are surprisingly few days when it will actually be raining to any great degree during the twin morning and evening windows of hopping on the scooter. Even more so with the 5 minute window of putting the tent up. And not likely to be a mega problem unless rain really torrential, which it rarely is. How often does the gloomy forecast say heavy rain when it's mostly just light rain/drizzle/bit damp?


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## HobbesOnTour (21 May 2018)

Blue Hills said:


> My Lodge 2 is definitely inner only erect first. Then chuck the outer over the top.
> 
> I thought it would be a problem but in practice it isn't.
> 
> Also, in practice with regard to worries about putting it up in the rain I take reassurance from the surprising but true factoid I was told on taking up commuting by Vespa many years ago - despite the reputation of British weather there are surprisingly few days when it will actually be raining to any great degree during the twin morning and evening windows of hopping on the scooter. Even more so with the 5 minute window of putting the tent up. And not likely to be a mega problem unless rain really torrential, which it rarely is. How often does the gloomy forecast say heavy rain when it's mostly just light rain/drizzle/bit damp?



Isn't that the thing, though, with tents and with all our gear really - the "fear factor"?

I specifically chose a tent that was not inner first pitching because of the "fear" of the inner getting soaking wet when I was pitching it. For me, being dry is priority number 1 and the image of a soaked inner, puddles on the floor while struggling to get a fly over everything in the dark and the rain and the wind was enough for me to reject that option.
But how often does it happen?
In truth, hardly ever!

Instead, I went for a free-standing tent (for those times when pegging out was impossible), all-in-one pitch (to get it up quickly in bad weather) and a 4 season tent to be comfortable in winter.

As it turns out, the tent is not actually free-standing- it will not stand on it's own. If it is not pegged out the fly sits against the inner.
The all-in-one pitch is really only practical in warm weather. Winter means condensation meaning the whole tent gets wet if taken down all in one. Instead, the reality is separate pitching for fly, then inner. While possible, it is very finnicky!
And the extra lining over the mesh needs to be open in winter to minimise the condensation! 

As things turn out, my cheapy tunnel does a far better job! 

I spent the guts of a year researching tents to find the one that checked all my boxes. I've spent the last year trying to get the new tent to do the things it's supposed to do! 

Damn the fear! 

It's all well and good to recommend a tent, but the user has to know the conditions the reviewer is using the tent.
Climate, location, time of year, frequency of pitching, personal preferences are vital. 
For example, the condensation issue with my tent is only an issue because I pack it up every day and like to camp in the winter.
I chatted online with some other owners before I bought the tent.
After my problems I chatted again. 
Their usage differed very much from mine. Pitches for up to a week at a time, never used in winter. No problem to dry it out -warm weather camping. No wild camping.

So, before you buy a tent, figure out how you want to use it and when.
Then find out who does similar. Their recommendations should have more weight.


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## Blue Hills (21 May 2018)

The Lodge 2 is essentially free standing hobbes. I would tend to put 4 in though. It actually does more than it claims as although it comes with guy lines you don't need them - have sat out a storm fine without them.

I also tend to carry 4 pegs for going into sand.

Agree with you about letting most of the fear go


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## jay clock (23 May 2018)

MSR Hubba Hubba NX. Light, roomy, huge for one person, olive green for stealth, freestanding. Outstanding 





Only issue is price!


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## Salar (23 May 2018)

For a couple of nights why not just get a bivvy bag, light and cheap.

(One problem, you might look as if you've been dumped from the boot of a Mark 2 Jag)


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## Globalti (23 May 2018)

I bought a tent by putting a "wanted" ad in the classifeds on UKClimbing. I received about ten offers of various good quality tents and ended up buying a Wild Country Quasar in unused condition for something ridiculous like £170.


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## reppans (23 May 2018)

classic33 said:


> You ever made a "Bothy Bag" from a tent outer? Used on group walks to keep you out of the weather whilst you stop.



I do - it's staple gear for me for cold weather activities, esp. XC skiing where stopping = big cool down. My mid tent doubles as a rain cape, so it's effectively a 'body bothy' with hood and is much warmer than equivalent windbreaker jacket and pants due to the 'mitten' effect of all limbs inside. If you have direct sunlight, there's a big solar greenhouse boost, and with my head out, I can run a heated micro climate which is really luxurious (alcohol stove as candle for a Palmer Furnace). Lastly, the fly alone makes for 90%+ flying bug barrier in an interesting play on the bugs' own instincts - with 1min pitch/takedown, it's often worthy for just lunch and long rest breaks.


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## fatjel (26 May 2018)

I've only done the one cycle camping trip using a eurohike backpacker tunnel type tent
It was a gift and kept me sheltered for the night.

Bad points .. 
It is a beggar to get in and out of (for me)
Exiting in the morning my bum dragged thru the wet grass soaking my only pair of trousers
I felt really confined inside the tent (my daughter who gave me it calls it the coffin)

Good points 
Very cheap even if I had to pay for it
Easy to put up. All in one so inner wouldn't get wet while I fumbled with the fly sheet
Light to carry on the bike

The bad points were bad enough to make me think of replacing it asap
Eurohike do a 2 man tamar dome tent.. Would that or one similar have more door height and ceiling height
Or would the difference be so small as to be insignificant

I


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## classic33 (26 May 2018)

fatjel said:


> I've only done the one cycle camping trip using a eurohike backpacker tunnel type tent
> It was a gift and kept me sheltered for the night.
> 
> Bad points ..
> ...


Now half price
https://m.blacks.co.uk/product/green-eurohike-tamar-2-man-tent/107840/


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## classic33 (31 May 2018)

Vango Soul 200


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