# Beware distressing pics



## Venod (30 Apr 2018)

I have copied this from a pst on my Facebook feed if anybody objects I will remove it, but the last line of the text just about sums it up, I fear he won't be the last casualty.



















So the day started with a nice ride into the Buckinghamshire countryside..

It was only a matter of time before somebody was going to be nearly killed by our roads that are becoming increasingly dangerous for all users.

Well today after hitting a pothole filled with water and snapping the bike frame in half which was bad enough, a fellow human being (not me fortunately) is rushed to hospital and going to have a op tomorrow for fractured jaw, cheek, nose. Two punture wounds on his face and split lip that needs sitching plus a slight fracture on his spine!

We are not talking the odd required repair that’s missed, we all understand that things slip through the net.. This is years of under investment making our roads increasingly dangerous to all users and it’s just not acceptable!

Our roads are officially a disgrace...!


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## Alan O (30 Apr 2018)

That one looks truly shocking!


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## jayonabike (30 Apr 2018)

[QUOTE 5229762, member: 9609"]whats the bike made out of to just snap ? just awful.

might he have stayed on if bike hadn't failed ?[/QUOTE]
Looks like the Ribble winter trainer frame which is aluminium


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## Alembicbassman (30 Apr 2018)

People have been killed - 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5474997/Potholes-leave-400-cyclists-dead-maimed-decade.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-40905107

My 'Road' bike now looks like this:


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## mjr (30 Apr 2018)

Underinvestment, pah!

Motor vehicles keep getting heavier, so doing more damage to roads and they're not being taxed enough more to cover it.

It ain't underinvestment.


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## midlife (30 Apr 2018)

Ouch ! GWS as they say. Which hospital is he in?


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## raleighnut (30 Apr 2018)

ouch indeed.


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## Sharky (30 Apr 2018)

Usually on this forum we would ask "is the bike ok?"

But in this case .....

Hope the rider makes a full recovery.​


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## Johnno260 (30 Apr 2018)

Wishing the guy a speedy recovery. 

Roads near me are awful, literially look like they been carpet bombed.


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## Pat "5mph" (30 Apr 2018)

Hi!
Please keep the thread on topic, that is "dangers to cyclists caused by hidden potholes" and not "what should cyclists do to avoid hidden potholes"
Thank you!
I'm also moving this thread to the Advocacy forum.
My best wishes to the injured rider, hope he recovers soon.


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## screenman (30 Apr 2018)

Around these parts recently the puddles are all the way across the road. Single track roads that are carrying huge lorries do not allow for a lot of swerving about.


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## wisdom (30 Apr 2018)

The water masked a hazard that clearly should not have been left in that state.
I hope he recovers well and his case is fought through the courts.I have reported loads of potholes through the council's websites and fill that hole.But nothing has been done.Someone from the council or other authorities must have been down that road and seen it.I think we should bombard them every time we see one.If a lot of folk keep reporting them something may get done.


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## derrick (30 Apr 2018)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Hi!
> Please keep the thread on topic, that is "dangers to cyclists caused by hidden potholes" and not "what should cyclists do to avoid hidden potholes"
> Thank you!
> I'm also moving this thread to the Advocacy forum.
> My best wishes to the injured rider, hope he recovers soon.


I think this is people trying to prevent it happening to someone else, it's good advice.


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## Johnno260 (30 Apr 2018)

Well at the moment even in the car I avoid puddles, but fact is we shouldn’t have to. 

The list of injuries this guy sustained is pretty awful, any spinal injury is a concern.


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## Drago (30 Apr 2018)

Good heavens above. That's dreadful.

And the "not just a matter of time before someone is killed" has happened many times to cyclists in recent years. There's always a £billion spare when the DUP need bribing to form a Government, but when something important needs doing the cupboard is mysteriously bare.


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## Vantage (30 Apr 2018)

I hope that guy makes a speedy recovery and isn't put off cycling again.
The roads now are a danger to cyclists these days and not just because of maniac drivers.
The front of my bars were forced an inch down thanks to hitting a pothole this morning and I have the bolts on the stem pretty damn tight. 
Time something was done about it.


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## lane (30 Apr 2018)

New government policy today - in future work by utility companies they must first see if they can dig the pavement up or grass verge rather than the road in order to prevent dealays to motor vehicles and more potholes. Not sure this is the best policy. It will probably also include prioritising digging up cycle paths to prevent delays to motor traffic.


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## Cycleops (30 Apr 2018)

[QUOTE 5229762, member: 9609"]
might he have stayed on if bike hadn't failed ?[/QUOTE]
Quite possibly. We can only speculate.

Terrible injuries. Wish him a speedy recovery.


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## Milzy (30 Apr 2018)

Us roadies trade off heavy safety gear for other gains. A full face MTB helmet would have saved his face but they’re just not practical for road cycling. I’ve noticed a few massive pot holes around here lately. Some bigger than that one.


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## Slick (1 May 2018)

It is a risk we all take. Most could probably point the finger at my example as my own fault, but it's amazing just how quickly you can get caught out. On a commute ride a couple of months ago it was still dark and raining. On a long slow left hand bend I could feel the cars getting closer as they were desperate to pass. I don't usually pull in tight at thus bit but there is room and as it was dark you could tell there was nothing on coming. I ran through a puddle and hit the inevitable pot hole which sent a huge bone shake through my whole body. My front wheel buckled badly but at least I managed to stay on. 

I hope the guy in the picture recovers fully soon.


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## Drago (1 May 2018)

Its not an unreasonable expectation that in a first world country where we pay some of the highest taxes in the world that the roads will be maintained in a safe state.


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## screenman (1 May 2018)

Drago said:


> Its not an unreasonable expectation that in a first world country where we pay some of the highest taxes in the world that the roads will be maintained in a safe state.



I am not sure all the tax collected is spent wisely.


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## oldfatfool (1 May 2018)

mjr said:


> Underinvestment, pah!
> 
> Motor vehicles keep getting heavier, so doing more damage to roads and they're not being taxed enough more to cover it.
> 
> It ain't underinvestment.


But i didnt think it was road tax


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## raleighnut (1 May 2018)

oldfatfool said:


> But i didnt think it was road tax


You might but millions of other fools think it is.


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## Drago (1 May 2018)

Let's also blame sat navs. LGVs that were confined largely to main roads now find themselves on all sorts of small roads because of the ubiquitous t**t nav.


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## mjr (1 May 2018)

oldfatfool said:


> But i didnt think it was road tax


There is currently no weight element to any motor vehicle taxes IIRC. There probably should be, else we'll all need to pay more council and income tax, which people push back against and the roads go to hell, plus there's insufficient incentive to use lighter vehicles.

But my main point is that refusing to replace the carpet you just burned is not "underinvestment" - it's vandalism and that's what motorists are doing to the roads.


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## raleighnut (1 May 2018)

mjr said:


> There is currently no weight element to any motor vehicle taxes IIRC. There probably should be, else we'll all need to pay more council and income tax, which people push back against and the roads go to hell, plus there's insufficient incentive to use lighter vehicles.
> 
> But my main point is that refusing to replace the carpet you just burned is not "underinvestment" - it's vandalism and that's what motorists are doing to the roads.


In fact Electric Vehicles will be heavier in order to get a decent range out of em.


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## Slick (1 May 2018)

mjr said:


> There is currently no weight element to any motor vehicle taxes IIRC. There probably should be, else we'll all need to pay more council and income tax, which people push back against and the roads go to hell, plus there's insufficient incentive to use lighter vehicles.
> 
> But my main point is that refusing to replace the carpet you just burned is not "underinvestment" - it's vandalism and that's what motorists are doing to the roads.


I get your main point but when your talking about commercials it's all about weight when it comes to tax. It's been a while but IIRC it may be measured in axles but more of them = more weight anyway. I don't think they do as much damage as the weather does either.


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## mjr (1 May 2018)

Slick said:


> I get your main point but when your talking about commercials it's all about weight when it comes to tax. It's been a while but IIRC it may be measured in axles but more of them = more weight anyway. I don't think they do as much damage as the weather does either.


I thought the weight element was on the trailer tax not the motor vehicle tax but looking again, I think there may be a weight element as well as mainly an axle one.

Given that many cycle-only routes last years between minor repairs unless they were built on the cheap (and even then some survive without potholes), I don't feel that weather can do the damage without heavy vehicles applying the pressure. It ain't the winter, but the motoring lobby has been pretty successful at pointing the finger at the weather.


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## Bonefish Blues (1 May 2018)

Roads which used to be properly repaired now get "throw and roll" patching at best. We live in a small village, without HGVs, and relatively low traffic counts. Some holes are being re-repaired after being patched only a few weeks ago. The edges are unsealed, even to the untrained eye, and it's screamingly obvious it's a bodge which won't last.

Put simply, least-cost methods are clearly being used, and freeze-thaw has had a field day over this last winter as a result. I can only imagine the levels of claims at the moment.


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## kingrollo (1 May 2018)

Drago said:


> Its not an unreasonable expectation that in a first world country where we pay some of the highest taxes in the world that the roads will be maintained in a safe state.



Problem is a lot of the most influential and powerful people making UK decisions or influencing others - don't actually live in the UK. They use the uk as a sweatshop - so long as the profit margins are high, and tax is low - a shoddy nhs, and poor roads they care not - they just blame immigrants and asylum seekers ...


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## DCBassman (1 May 2018)

I have to say that recent travels in Buckinghamshire horrified me with the poor road conditions. Thought it was bad enough in West Devon, but was an order of magnitude worse there.


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## T4tomo (1 May 2018)

mjr said:


> Underinvestment, pah!
> 
> Motor vehicles keep getting heavier, so doing more damage to roads and they're not being taxed enough more to cover it.
> 
> It ain't underinvestment.


i haven't got the exact numbers.to hand, but the amount raised from road, vehicle and fuel taxes / duty exceed road spending by a significant multiple.

under investment is a significant factor.


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## Bonefish Blues (1 May 2018)

DCBassman said:


> I have to say that recent travels in Buckinghamshire horrified me with the poor road conditions. Thought it was bad enough in West Devon, but was an order of magnitude worse there.


I live on the Oxon/Bucks border and I think Bucks just shades it for awfulness. The largest we measured was 3ft x 18" x 9" deep - and that was in that condition for 2 weeks before it was filled...


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## mjr (1 May 2018)

T4tomo said:


> i haven't got the exact numbers.to hand, but the amount raised from road, vehicle and fuel taxes / duty exceed road spending by a significant multiple.


Cute. Only road spending, not all motoring spend then? No replacing the public assets destroyed by motorists who hit-and-run? Nothing towards ambulances picking up the pieces after crashes? No contribution for roads policing? Not even cleaning the exhaust particulates and brake dust off historic buildings?

When you do a more reasonable assessment and try to include at least some of the costs like that, you realise costs probably exceed taxation by over 20% which is part of why more motoring means worse roads: the nation is making a thumping loss on motoring and every extra mile hurts more. I think the Cabinet Office did a slightly more balanced assessment back in 2009 and subsequent governments haven't dared repeat it on the same terms. Other assessments by bodies including DEFRA, the SDC and the Campaign for Better Transport estimate it's far higher (although the CBT has an agenda... the other two less so), especially on marginal costs.

Basically, the main groups who still claim motoring is currently profitable for the country are motoring ones like the RAC.



> under investment is a significant factor.


Huh? Do you think we could build even more expensive roads that wouldn't require repairs? I feel that's grasping at straws to discourage us from restricting these damaging vehicles further.


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## mjr (1 May 2018)

Bonefish Blues said:


> I live on the Oxon/Bucks border and I think Bucks just shades it for awfulness. The largest we measured was 3ft x 18" x 9" deep - and that was in that condition for 2 weeks before it was filled...


Only 2 weeks? The metre deep hole in a cycleway (almost certainly caused by motorists frequently driving with two wheels on that section) that I reported back in January and was told would be repaired last Thursday is still there this afternoon. And this when various policies say cycling is to be promoted and given priority because of all the benefits it brings. Motorists have got it cushy because they destroy things and cost more when they sue councils for repairs to cars damaged by potholes.


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## Bonefish Blues (1 May 2018)

mjr said:


> Only 2 weeks? The metre deep hole in a cycleway (almost certainly caused by motorists frequently driving with two wheels on that section) that I reported back in January and was told would be repaired last Thursday is still there this afternoon. And this when various policies say cycling is to be promoted and given priority because of all the benefits it brings. Motorists have got it cushy because they destroy things and cost more when they sue councils for repairs to cars damaged by potholes.


You found a hole a metre deep on a cycleway and it's still there 4 months later? Remarkable.


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## screenman (1 May 2018)

Drago said:


> Let's also blame sat navs. LGVs that were confined largely to main roads now find themselves on all sorts of small roads because of the ubiquitous t**t nav.



We have a couple of very large distribution places just outside the village, the roads are not coping well.


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## Skibird (1 May 2018)

I moved from Bucks to the IOW but go back frequently, it still horrifies me to see the state of some of the roads, which just seem to be getting worse and worse with no repairs is sight.


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## Drago (1 May 2018)

I only live a mile from the Bucks border, and can confirm that Milton Keynes roads wouldn't impress most Syrian motorists.


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## Johnno260 (2 May 2018)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Put simply, least-cost methods are clearly being used, and freeze-thaw has had a field day over this last winter as a result. I can only imagine the levels of claims at the moment.



Thing is least "cost methods" to me seems false economy, as the repairs (bodge) doesn't last so the same thing is repaired multiple times.

I witnessed an argument between a motorist and a road repair contractor, they had filled some holes, but left the largest hole as it wasn't marked with spray paint, it was bang in between the smaller holes.

The council are allowing themselves to be ripped off by contractors as they end up going out to the same location many times, it should be a contract to repair holes on a certain stretch of road, again it ends up wasting tax payers money.


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## mjr (2 May 2018)

Johnno260 said:


> The council are allowing themselves to be ripped off by contractors as they end up going out to the same location many times, it should be a contract to repair holes on a certain stretch of road, again it ends up wasting tax payers money.


I agree they/we are being ripped off but it might not be as direct as that.

I think some (most?) of the contracts are actually to repair holes on certain stretches of road for a given period of time. So the current contractor only needs the repairs to last until the contract is up for renewal which I think is rarely longer than a few years, whereas (edit: if I remember correctly what I was told at a briefing about 10 years ago) an average C/U-class new road is expected to last 9 years and surface-dressing done correctly should extend that by 4 or 5 more, possibly twice... so in other words, even the best council probably won't be able to tell whether most surface dressing was done by the book until after the contract's been re-let - unless they were actually out watching the work being done which no council has enough officers to do any more - so there's basically no financial incentive for the contractor to do the job properly.

Still with me? Then the flip side is that when the contract is being re-let, the current number of repairs of each type in the past N periods is disclosed to the bidders, so doing a crap job (as long as you don't get found out) means more repairs and more severe types are needed, so the contractor and its peers can charge more next time. One way to avoid this would be longer contracts and then you might only get shoot work in the last few years of it, but few councils have that sort of financial stability any more and the council needs to be really sure it can terminate a contract that stops working well for it or fire a rubbish contractor if they start cutting corners early and they discover it... aaaand few councillors look beyond the next election or two anyway, so might commit their council to a good-now-but-rubbish-later long-term deal if they could anyway!

I'm sure it doesn't always work as badly as I outline but it seems such an obvious failure pattern in contracted-out road maintenance that I expect its inventors are patting themselves on the back with both hands: trebles all round!


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## oldfatfool (2 May 2018)

Without the evil motor vehicle there would be no tarmac to be potholes, we would be on cobbles at best.


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## Bonefish Blues (2 May 2018)

Some facts on Oxfordshire roads, given I have just come back from a meeting where a County Councillor addressed the issue.

Current estimate of cost to rectify Oxon roads £150m. Current annual budget £68m. Additional funds made available in this F/yr £3.8m. The severity of the winter has resulted in c3x more potholes than an average winter.


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## jarlrmai (2 May 2018)

oldfatfool said:


> Without the evil motor vehicle there would be no tarmac to be potholes, we would be on cobbles at best.



https://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2011/aug/15/cyclists-paved-way-for-roads


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## raleighnut (3 May 2018)

Even though it was started and paid for by cyclists, the RIA stressed from its foundation that it was lobbying for better roads to be used by all, not just cyclists

  

Yah boo sucks to car drivers.


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## hopless500 (3 May 2018)

Johnno260 said:


> Wishing the guy a speedy recovery.
> 
> Roads near me are awful, literially look like they been carpet bombed.


Same here.


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## hopless500 (3 May 2018)

Bonefish Blues said:


> I live on the Oxon/Bucks border and I think Bucks just shades it for awfulness. The largest we measured was 3ft x 18" x 9" deep - and that was in that condition for 2 weeks before it was filled...


The worst one by us was a similar size and took up half the road - it's only taken reporting it 4 times over as many months for them to throw a bit of sloppy tarmac in there (yesterday) that actually doesn't fill it.


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## mjr (3 May 2018)

https://www.bemk.co.uk/news/cyclist...stratford-and-now-considers-suing-the-council is a local news report (mentioned on another forum) and MK Council claims that they inspected it three days before. Surely that hole didn't appear in three days? This one's likely to run for a while...


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## Drago (3 May 2018)

Inspected 3 days prior by Mr Magoo perhaps.


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## mjr (3 May 2018)

Drago said:


> Inspected 3 days prior by Mr Magoo perhaps.


Yeah, I really would love to see a copy of that inspection report... but not quite enough to www.WhatDoTheyKnow.com it especially as I don't recognise the exact location which doesn't look like it's in Stony Stratford town and there's not much to identify it. It's probably about as good as when my local council couldn't find a hole in National Cycle Route 11 reported with location, map and photo but only told me when I asked them why they hadn't fixed it after 8 months. And that was 2013. How many must be injured before there's serious action?


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## Alan O (8 May 2018)

Talking about the state of roads, I'm reminded of a trip I did in Cambodia once. Some roads I traveled are built on earth foundations a few feet above the surrounding land, so they're above water during the rainy season floods. That can be very effective, providing the earth is laid and rolled in multiple thin layers to make sure it's packed really hard, but to save on time and costs (it's a very poor country, after all, with corruption a daily fact of life), many of them are laid all on one go and only the top layer gets a proper rolling. So once the more hardened top layer gets penetrated by water, the whole thing starts to crumble.

It makes me so happy to know that I live in a country that can afford to make and maintain its roads properly, where priority is given to the actual needs of road users, and where politicians aren't blinkered by whatever pie they've currently got their fingers in.

Oh, hang on...


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