# Doping git thread



## rich p (10 Sep 2014)

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/valentin-iglinskiy-sacked-by-astana-after-positive-test
From Team Evil - one of the Iglinsky's
It kinda makes you wonder and despair - twat


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## HF2300 (10 Sep 2014)

> The Kazakh squad insisted that Iglinskiy had doped _without the knowledge of the team_...“Valentin has admitted to using prohibited substances on his own initiative and independently, _without any consultation from the Astana Pro Team staff_.



So they were just upset that he was freelancing (or freebasing)?

Just imagine Vino trying to keep a straight face as he sacked someone for doping. Oh the irony.


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## fossyant (10 Sep 2014)

I don't know how Astana are still going, they have had a history of doping riders.......


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## Crackle (10 Sep 2014)

And he won a stage of the Tour of Turkey.


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## HF2300 (10 Sep 2014)

Crackle said:


> And he won a stage of the Tour of Turkey.



Would that have been cold Turkey...


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## Crackle (10 Sep 2014)

HF2300 said:


> Would that have been cold Turkey...


It will be now.


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## deptfordmarmoset (10 Sep 2014)

Ignominynskiy? It isn't the drugs, it's getting caught that got him sacked.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (11 Sep 2014)

At least he admitted it.


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## rich p (14 Sep 2014)

How did I miss this!
Rabottini again - he's as dumb as Di Luca
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/rabottini-tests-positive-for-epo


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## The Couch (14 Sep 2014)

rich p said:


> How did I miss this!
> Rabottini again - he's as dumb as Di Luca
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/rabottini-tests-positive-for-epo


Strangely enough he wasn't really in a particular good form during the Giro (while he had shown some good signs in the beginning of the season).
He must have made some miscalculation with his timings 

How long (or how many doping hits) is this team gonna be able to continue?
(and maybe even more disturbing, how can the Giro keep giving this team a wild card)


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## Pro Tour Punditry (14 Sep 2014)

Does anyone know how to access the mythical updated list of suspended/banned riders? I have seen it linked in pdf form in articles but having searched the UCI website I have failed to identify it's location.


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## thom (14 Sep 2014)

rich p said:


> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/valentin-iglinskiy-sacked-by-astana-after-positive-test
> From Team Evil - one of the Iglinsky's
> It kinda makes you wonder and despair - twat


At least now they have Luis Leon Sanchez, they can be sure they's got all clean riders on their roster.


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## Pedrosanchezo (16 Sep 2014)

Marmion said:


> Does anyone know how to access the mythical updated list of suspended/banned riders? I have seen it linked in pdf form in articles but having searched the UCI website I have failed to identify it's location.


http://www.dopeology.org/


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## deptfordmarmoset (16 Sep 2014)

Marmion said:


> Does anyone know how to access the mythical updated list of suspended/banned riders? I have seen it linked in pdf form in articles but having searched the UCI website I have failed to identify it's location.


Though Pedrosanchezo has already provided a link, the UCI page linking to the pdfs for suspensions and violations is here:http://www.uci.ch/clean-sport/anti-doping-rule-violations/


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## ufkacbln (16 Sep 2014)

The best way is to combine the sources for a wider picture.

Although limited in dates, Dopeology is historic, and not up to date. The UCI is current, but not historic


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## Pro Tour Punditry (16 Sep 2014)

Cunobelin said:


> The best way is to combine the sources for a wider picture.
> 
> Although limited in dates, Dopeology is historic, and not up to date. The UCI is current, but not historic



What about Simpson? Is he current or historic? 



sorry...


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## ufkacbln (16 Sep 2014)

Marmion said:


> What about Simpson? Is he current or historic?



I apologise for Marmion's post..

It is a pathetic personal attack that refers to his refusal to believe that Tom Simpson's death was a key factor in the history of drugs testing and the way in which professional cycling's attitude to doping evolved.

Use my original post in constructive manner it was made, and make up your own mind about the value of the personal jibes in this thread.

I will stick with my far higher standards.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (16 Sep 2014)

Cunobelin said:


> I apologise for Marmion's post...



There's no need to. Humour seems to have died on the forum. Perhaps we should undertake humour testing?


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## Dayvo (16 Sep 2014)

Marmion said:


> There's no need to. Humour seems to have died on the forum. Perhaps we should undertake humour testing?



Too many would fail.


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## rich p (17 Sep 2014)

Ulissi has a short-lived comeback before being benched again. The UCI need to sort out a better protocol for these cases such as his, Kreuzigers and JTL
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/lampre-merida-bench-ulissi-after-brief-return-to-racing


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## Shadowfax (17 Sep 2014)

fossyant said:


> I don't know how Astana are still going, they have had a history of doping riders.......


Yeah FFs sack Nibali and Aru doping geets !


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## Shadowfax (17 Sep 2014)

Marmion said:


> There's no need to. Humour seems to have died on the forum. Perhaps we should undertake humour testing?


FFS you wouldn't pass yer nobber !


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## smutchin (1 Oct 2014)

Anything Val can do...

http://twitter.com/inrng/status/517382478987034624


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## Monsieur Remings (1 Oct 2014)

smutchin said:


> Anything Val can do...
> 
> http://twitter.com/inrng/status/517382478987034624



If Nibali has any sense he'll leave Astana. This doesn't look good for him - GT winner at TDF helped by doping team-mate.

FFS.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (1 Oct 2014)

Poor Vino, what's the man to do with all these naughty people on his team?


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## thom (1 Oct 2014)

Marmion said:


> Poor Vino, what's the man to do with all these naughty people on his team?


Suspend the team and explain themselves within the MPCC apparently...:
http://road.cc/content/news/131987-...y-joins-sibling-valentin-testing-positive-epo
Interesting to hear what Vino has to say on that one


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## Pro Tour Punditry (1 Oct 2014)

thom said:


> Interesting to hear what Vino has to say on that one



He'll probably pull on his 'stana flat cap and be a geezer - everyone loves a geezer


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## Crackle (1 Oct 2014)

Vino shimmied his way through a bunch of awkward questions at the Tour, I'm sure he can do it again.


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## Bollo (1 Oct 2014)

Marmion said:


>


He doesn't want to do it like that!


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## Pro Tour Punditry (1 Oct 2014)

Bollo said:


> He doesn't want to do it like that!



How about this one?


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## rich p (1 Oct 2014)

Nibali had made it plain that he didn't want to do this race...

_As the Inner Ring points out, if Astana comply with that rule, they will have to withdraw from the most prestigious race in their home country, the one-day Tour of Almaty, which is held on Friday_
but he won't be able to do the T of Lombardy either though


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## Pro Tour Punditry (1 Oct 2014)

rich p said:


> _will have to withdraw from the most prestigious race in their home country, the one-day Tour of Almaty_



I wonder what Vino will do when he finds out that Cookson is not as Almaty as Uncle Pat?


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## rich p (1 Oct 2014)

Marmion said:


> I wonder what Vino will do when he finds out that Cookson is not as Almaty as Uncle Pat?


He'll need something to keep his strength up through these difficult times. Something to help his stamina perhaps.
I wonder if any members of the forum could come up with a suggestion for the poor chap?


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## Strathlubnaig (2 Oct 2014)

Kick Astana out and replace with the mythical Alonso team.


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## Hont (2 Oct 2014)

A lot of crap being talked about Iglinsky being a Domestique. I don't know many Domestiques who've won LBL and I wonder how this makes Nibali feel now, given that it was him who Iglinsky chased down and dropped in La Doyenne.


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## The Couch (2 Oct 2014)

Hont said:


> A lot of crap being talked about Iglinsky being a Domestique. I don't know many Dometiques who've won LBL and I wonder how this makes Nibali feel now, given that it was him who Iglinsky chased down and dropped in La Doyenne.


Maybe Nibali slipped something in his drink  ... hadn't Nibbles said in a recent interview somewhere he didn't really want to do the Kazakh tour?
(of course he followed it up that he would uphold his commitment to the team-management)

But Astana screwed his shrewd plan by requesting the B-sample analysis, which allows them them to wait with the self-suspending till after this tour


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## Dayvo (2 Oct 2014)

Wonder what the next two letters are behind the slimy one!


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## rich p (2 Oct 2014)

Dayvo said:


> Wonder what the next two letters are behind the slimy one!


Is it the Cazakh Union of the National Trust symbol?


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## Pro Tour Punditry (2 Oct 2014)

I hope you are all sitting down.....



...Manolo Saiz is returning to cycling
https://translate.google.com/transl...2014/10/01/ciclismo/1412171597.html&edit-text=

Would you let him near your child?


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## rich p (2 Oct 2014)

Marmion said:


> I hope you are all sitting down.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bugger me!
And the Sporting Director is David Extebarria of high haematocrit and Puerto fame - youcouldn't make it up.
OT, Wasn't Fuentes supposed to be dishing the dirt in a book on Puerto names?


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## Pro Tour Punditry (2 Oct 2014)

rich p said:


> Bugger me!
> And the Sporting Director is David Extebarria of high haematocrit and Puerto fame - youcouldn't make it up.
> OT, Wasn't Fuentes supposed to be dishing the dirt in a book on Puerto names?



And don't forget Lejarreta, who was a patient of Fuentes in the 80s/90s.

If I was an aspiring Spanish cyclist I'd be fecking off in the opposite direction, but that will not happen. It beggars belief. Well, it doesn't but it should.


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## fimm (3 Oct 2014)

Marmion said:


> I hope you are all sitting down.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...Manolo Saiz is returning to cycling


Who he?


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## Crackle (3 Oct 2014)

Marmion said:


> I hope you are all sitting down.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Depressing really.


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## Stonechat (3 Oct 2014)

rich p said:


> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/valentin-iglinskiy-sacked-by-astana-after-positive-test
> From Team Evil - one of the Iglinsky's
> It kinda makes you wonder and despair - twat


The other Iglinskiy brother has now been suspended for the same failure 
http://road.cc/content/news/131987-...y-joins-sibling-valentin-testing-positive-epo


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## Stonechat (3 Oct 2014)

See also
http://road.cc/content/news/132286-astana-start-list-il-lombardia-will-they-be-start-line


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## rich p (3 Oct 2014)

Stonechat said:


> The other Iglinskiy brother has now been suspended for the same failure
> http://road.cc/content/news/131987-oh-brother…-astana’s-maxim-iglinskiy-joins-sibling-valentin-testing-positive-epo


See post #23 and subsequent ones!


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## HF2300 (3 Oct 2014)

Vinokourov:_ “I am very disappointed and angered that this rider could not have understood the basis of our rules and the importance of our ethics.”_

Oh, the irony.


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## smutchin (3 Oct 2014)

Translation: "I am very disappointed and angered that he allowed himself to get caught, the bloody amateur."


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## Pro Tour Punditry (8 Oct 2014)

I thought it fitting to post this here...

Andy Schleck is due to announce that he is to retire; although he must have announced it already to someone for them to know that...


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## smutchin (8 Oct 2014)

Marmion said:


> I thought it fitting to post this here...
> 
> Andy Schleck is due to announce that he is to retire; although he must have announced it already to someone for them to know that...



You know when they say on the news that some old actor has died and your first thought is "Oh, I thought he died years ago", yeah? 

Well, that.


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## rich p (8 Oct 2014)

I'm kind of sad that AS is bowing out this way with a succession of injuries being to blame.
If he'd been nailed for the doper that he is, I'd feel better.
Is that a nasty thing to say?


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## Crackle (8 Oct 2014)

That knee injury was pretty serious.

It's also rumoured that he's going to ride for Alonso's team: So retiring then.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (8 Oct 2014)

Crackle said:


> That knee injury was pretty serious.



It's the knee injury mafia


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## Crackle (10 Oct 2014)

Marmion said:


> It's the knee injury mafia


Don't mock, you don't want them visiting.


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## rich p (10 Oct 2014)

Crackle said:


> Don't mock, you don't want them visiting.


It wouldn't keep him off the bike - laziness does that


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## Crackle (10 Oct 2014)

rich p said:


> It wouldn't keep him off the bike - laziness does that


He's one bridie away from joining Andy in retirement.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (10 Oct 2014)

rich p said:


> It wouldn't keep him off the bike - laziness does that





Crackle said:


> He's one bridie away from joining Andy in retirement.



I have come out in sympathy for the old and decrepit


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## User169 (13 Oct 2014)

Little snippet in Cyclingnews re Boogerd. 

As to the bit in bold, he seems to have got it arse about face.

"_Boogerd lawyers up
Roompot-Orange directeur sportif Michael Boogerd has entered into talks with the Belgian Cycling Federation after it was announced last week that they had launched an investigation into the former rider. “I didn’t want to go,” he told Dutch newspaper Algemeen Dagblad. “Instead, I hired a lawyer.”
The investigation is looking into Boogerd’s admission in March of last year that __he doped from 1997 until his retirement in 2007__. In his confession on Dutch television station NOS, he admitted to using EPO, blood transfusions and cortisone during his career. While Boogerd is Dutch, he lived in Belgium and rode under a Belgian licence.
Boogerd could face a life suspension from the sport if found guilty, but remains defiant and says that he will not discuss others to get a shorter ban. ““The Belgian federation had the same proposal as the Dutch Doping Authority had. I will be suspended for a long period, or I will have to talk about other people. I refuse to do that. I rather be suspended for life,” he told the newspaper .
Boogerd also spot to Holland’s Radio 1 saying that, “I want the uncertainty off I just want to do my job and if that is not possible, I want to know,” before adding, “if I am suspended now for two years, then I will not work for two years. I would certainly appeal that decision.
*"I still think that this does not help the sport. People who betray, do it just to better to themselves and not to help the sport move forward.”*
The Dutch federation has confirmed that they could give Boogerd a temporary licence so that he could continue working with the Roompot-Orange team."_


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## rich p (15 Oct 2014)

With all the young, talented riders around why are Polsat considering hiring the serial doper Schumacher?
It can only be for the any publicity is good publicity angle
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/schumacher-linked-to-ccc-polsat


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## jifdave (16 Oct 2014)

another doper at astana.... shock

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-to-review-astana-worldtour-licence


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## rich p (16 Oct 2014)

Nibali and Aru should get out of that team before the shít starts to stick


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## ColinJ (16 Oct 2014)

rich p said:


> Nibali and Aru should get out of that team before the shít starts to stick


Nibali and Aru should never have got into that team in the first place, because it was obvious that there was shít, and a thick layer of it was always going to spread and stick to everyone involved!


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## Pro Tour Punditry (16 Oct 2014)

An interesting view here: Astana's Licence safe
http://inrng.com/2014/10/astana-licence-review-davidenok/


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## Strathlubnaig (16 Oct 2014)

ColinJ said:


> Nibali and Aru should never have got into that team in the first place, because it was obvious that there was shít, and a thick layer of it was always going to spread and stick to everyone involved!


Lahey sums it up for Nibbles in this scene.... Note... do NOT watch if easily offended by naughty words. FFW to 1 minute.

View: http://youtu.be/srq_MbsUTuM


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## smutchin (17 Oct 2014)

"You picked the wrong side"

Yup. I no longer care if Niballi himself is clean. He's made his bed, he can fark off and lie in it with his doping daffodil friends.


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## smutchin (17 Oct 2014)

[lol at the forum auto-censor]


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## HF2300 (17 Oct 2014)

Marmion said:


> An interesting view here: Astana's Licence safe
> http://inrng.com/2014/10/astana-licence-review-davidenok/



Trouble is INRNG's probably right. Vino will turn up, go 'wot me guv?' and point to everything they're allegedly doing to change things and the UCI will say 'oh, alright then'; and they probably don't have a lot of choice but to do so, unless there's concrete evidence of a doping culture in Astana.


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## rich p (17 Oct 2014)

smutchin said:


> "You picked the wrong side"
> 
> Yup. I no longer care if Niballi himself is clean. He's made his bed, he can fark off and lie in it with his doping daffodil friends.


I may start using 'daffodil' as a term of abuse along with my everpresent 'feckingspacebar'


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## smutchin (17 Oct 2014)

It's a nice timesaving keyboard shortcut - if you can't be bothered to type out daffodil (8 letters) you can type daffodil (4 letters) instead and it converts it to daffodil. Could come in very handy.


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## thom (17 Oct 2014)

<testing>
fark shoot crap daffodil
</testing>

ok, sorted:

"I would say you're a daffodil but you lack any warmth and depth"...


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## Pro Tour Punditry (18 Oct 2014)

Poor effort by Thor:
http://cyclingtips.com.au/2014/10/t...etly-and-let-the-lies-and-deception-continue/


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## ColinJ (18 Oct 2014)

Marmion said:


> Poor effort by Thor:
> http://cyclingtips.com.au/2014/10/t...etly-and-let-the-lies-and-deception-continue/


I thought so too!


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## HF2300 (19 Oct 2014)

Apparently Jakob Fuglsang is worried about what all the Astana doping cases will do to his reputation. Not talking about leaving though, unless Astana lose their WT licence, and maybe not even then.

I can see this in a way, as most teams would have their 2015 squads sorted so where does he go? Hopefully though he and a few others are kicking up a fuss internally. Got to wonder how worried they were about their reputation when they first went over to the dark side.


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## smutchin (19 Oct 2014)

When you look at which teams and riders Fuglsang has previously associated with, you have to wonder if he really is that bothered about his reputation.


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## rich p (19 Oct 2014)

HF2300 said:


> Apparently Jakob Fuglsang is worried about what all the Astana doping cases will do to his reputation. Not talking about leaving though, unless Astana lose their WT licence, and maybe not even then.
> 
> I can see this in a way, as most teams would have their 2015 squads sorted so where does he go? Hopefully though he and a few others are kicking up a fuss internally. Got to wonder how worried they were about their reputation when they first went over to the dark side.





smutchin said:


> When you look at which teams and riders Fuglsang has previously associated with, you have to wonder if he really is that bothered about his reputation.



This article doesn't show him doing much due diligence or caring about the doping history
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/fuglsang-defends-decision-to-join-astana


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## rich p (22 Oct 2014)

Cookson says that the UCI will take the Czech clearing of Kreuziger to CAS.
RK's main defence was that he said he didn't do it!


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## smutchin (23 Oct 2014)

Of course he didn't do it. A bigger boy did it and ran away. And to add insult to injury, the dog then ate his homework.


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## Stonechat (24 Oct 2014)

It's reported on BBC 

UCI and WADA will appearl to CASon the Romain Kreuzinger case
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/29750359


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## Strathlubnaig (31 Oct 2014)

I read that Santambrogio is to return to the peloton. I am astounded guys like this are re-signed, given the fall out from positive results. I would like to think if I was running a team I would turn to new and upcoming riders before considering high risk proven dopers, repentant or otherwise.


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## smutchin (31 Oct 2014)

Give 'em enough rope...


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## Shadow (31 Oct 2014)

Strathlubnaig said:


> I read that Santambrogio is to return to the peloton. I am astounded guys like this are re-signed, given the fall out from positive results. I would like to think if I was running a team I would turn to new and upcoming riders before considering high risk proven dopers, repentant or otherwise.


Couldn't agree more. 
Do the DS's have a say in who a team hires? Or is it solely senior management - e.g. Riis, Vino etc - that's where the problem lies.


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## 400bhp (31 Oct 2014)

Strathlubnaig said:


> I read that Santambrogio is to return to the peloton. I am astounded guys like this are re-signed, given the fall out from positive results. I would like to think if I was running a team I would turn to new and upcoming riders before considering high risk proven dopers, repentant or otherwise.



Who was it that said something like (paraphrasing here) when does sport become pure entertainment?

It doesn't really surprise me. I think us Brits are more rigid about doping than others are (rightly or wrongly). Second chances and all that...


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## Strathlubnaig (31 Oct 2014)

400bhp said:


> Who was it that said something like (paraphrasing here) when does sport become pure entertainment?
> 
> It doesn't really surprise me. I think us Brits are more rigid about doping than others are (rightly or wrongly). Second chances and all that...


I think the sport on Italy needs to hit the reset button


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## Pedrosanchezo (2 Nov 2014)

User said:


> this could be interesting http://www.cyclingquotes.com/news/19_athletes_accused_of_doping/
> .
> jurgen van den broeck released a statement saying he only used him for a sinus problem..
> this from a belguim newspaper......."The Flemish TV station VTM early 2013 received an anonymous letter stating that the entire Belgian cycling team was prepared at the World Championships in Valkenburg (2012), by Mertens. The Belgian Philippe Gilbert became world champion."


More on this and links now to cyclocross........

http://road.cc/content/news/134516-cyclo-cross-riders-reportedly-linked-belgian-blood-doping-probe


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## Pro Tour Punditry (2 Nov 2014)

Nibali teaming up with his old doc again in 2015:
http://m.cyclingnews.com/news/news-shorts-nibali-reunites-with-former-doctor


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## Crackle (2 Nov 2014)

Marmion said:


> Nibali teaming up with his old doc again in 2015:
> http://m.cyclingnews.com/news/news-shorts-nibali-reunites-with-former-doctor


All sounds hunky dory to me..…


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## Pro Tour Punditry (12 Nov 2014)

Interesting doping git graphic, points per year for selected riders pre-and post-doping ban


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## Pro Tour Punditry (13 Nov 2014)

There have been additions to the UCI lists of provisional suspensions and banned riders - including a 17 year old on the provisionally suspended list; the future is bright, eh?


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## classic33 (13 Nov 2014)

_"Veteran Scottish track cyclist Bruce Croall has received a doping ban of six months despite a tribunal accepting that the cyclist didn’t intentionally took an illegal stimulant.

The National Anti-Doping Panel back-dated the suspension to the time of his offence last year, which means Croall is free to ride again. The track cyclist is on track for a first Commonwealth Games selection. It was agreed by a special panel including a QC and a medical expert that the veteran Scottish cyclist tested positive for Oxilofrine, a ‘specified substance’ under the UCI’s Anti-Doping Rules, as a result of him using a supplement – Dorian Yates Nox Pump. The cyclist, who qualified for the kilo at Glasgow 2014, tested positive after he was placed in two veterans’ races at the UCI World Track Masters in Manchester on October 6 and October 9 last year."

http://www.evolutionary.org/scottish-track-cyclist-receives-doping-ban/_


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## Ganymede (14 Nov 2014)

Marmion said:


> There have been additions to the UCI lists of provisional suspensions and banned riders - including a 17 year old on the provisionally suspended list; the future is bright, eh?


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## oldroadman (14 Nov 2014)

Just for interest, I had a look at the UKAD site. 46 current suspensions, including 1 cycling (JTL), 5 athletics, most of the rest from both codes of rugby. then a few usual suspects, weightlifters, wrestlers, etc . It leads me to wonder, which UK sport has the problem? What is aslo interesting is that most of the 45 non-cycling sanctions are people at much lower level than elite. Which means - I don't know - but not many top performers in any of the sports mentioned must be 100% clean all the time, I hope.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (14 Nov 2014)

oldroadman said:


> Just for interest, I had a look at the UKAD site. 46 current suspensions, including 1 cycling (JTL), 5 athletics, most of the rest from both codes of rugby. then a few usual suspects, weightlifters, wrestlers, etc . It leads me to wonder, which UK sport has the problem? What is aslo interesting is that most of the 45 non-cycling sanctions are people at much lower level than elite. Which means - I don't know - but not many top performers in any of the sports mentioned must be 100% clean all the time, I hope.


From the doping in other sports thread:


Hont said:


> Saw this on Twitter yesterday...
> View attachment 61033



Are you Richard Moore?


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## BSRU (19 Nov 2014)

Astana
http://velonews.competitor.com/2014/11/news/fourth-astana-rider-turns-doping-positive_353629


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## Pro Tour Punditry (19 Nov 2014)

It just goes from bad to worse for that poor Vinokourov chap. Looks like he thinks there's one more to come...


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## rich p (19 Nov 2014)

Poor Vino is just plagued by bad luck.
It puts Cookson and the UCI in a position they'd probably rather not be.


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## SWSteve (19 Nov 2014)

I thought they're all acting independently of the team?


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## Pro Tour Punditry (19 Nov 2014)

It's certainly worth keeping en eye on the provisional suspension list just now!


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## rich p (20 Nov 2014)

Astana are "shocked and disappointed" which proves that it's not a team strategy and simply lots of independent renegades


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## oldroadman (20 Nov 2014)

Hmm, one from the world tour team, one from the pro-conti team, obviously unrelated and no connection with any team ethos, or it's management. Must be disappointing for Vino and the rest of his support staff. Licence commission decisions for 2015 gets more interesting - court here we come?


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## thom (21 Nov 2014)

Grauniad "Big Interview" with Vincenzo Nibali: 
‘Today if cyclists are doping, they will be caught’


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## Bollo (21 Nov 2014)

thom said:


> Grauniad "Big Interview" with Vincenzo Nibali:
> ‘Today if cyclists are doping, they will be caught’


Is there a more chilling phrase than
"Our sponsors in Kazakhstan weren't happy at all"


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## Pro Tour Punditry (21 Nov 2014)

thom said:


> Grauniad "Big Interview" with Vincenzo Nibali:
> ‘Today if cyclists are doping, they will be caught’



Aye, you will be, Vinnie.


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## ColinJ (21 Nov 2014)

Bollo said:


> Is there a more chilling phrase than
> "Our sponsors in Kazakhstan weren't happy at all"


Well, it is slightly better than "We will be shot for getting caught"!


----------



## Flick of the Elbow (22 Nov 2014)

It's time the UCI refused Astana a team licence. And even if they don't, the organisers of the Grand Tours should be refusing them entry.


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## smutchin (22 Nov 2014)

Flick of the Elbow said:


> the organisers of the Grand Tours should be refusing them entry.



The GTs can't refuse them entry if they have a WT licence.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (22 Nov 2014)

If you were a top women's cyclist, what team would you want to avoid riding for?
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/astana-acca-due-o-womens-team-launched-for-2015


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## Pro Tour Punditry (22 Nov 2014)

In more depressing news...
Matt Rendell has announced there are rumours that 472-Colombia (the Conti-tour team) has ended. 
If confirmed Rendell states that they "have kicked to death the flagbearer of clean Colombian sport and taken great joy in it."


----------



## cyberknight (22 Nov 2014)

Seems a certain american cant handle the new doping trend ............
http://www.mensjournal.com/adventur...ps-how-tough-is-the-beer-mile-really-20141120


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## rich p (26 Nov 2014)

Yet another Astana boy caught with his pants down and needle out
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/fedosseyev-is-fifth-doping-case-for-astana-organisation


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## Pro Tour Punditry (26 Nov 2014)

Marmion said:


> It just goes from bad to worse for that poor Vinokourov chap. Looks like he thinks there's one more to come...





rich p said:


> Yet another Astana boy caught with his pants down and needle out
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/fedosseyev-is-fifth-doping-case-for-astana-organisation



Told you so...<goes off to find a picture of Vino holding both hands up...>


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (26 Nov 2014)

Rumours are starting to circulate that someone has been "snitching" on his old chums:


----------



## Flick of the Elbow (26 Nov 2014)

Depressing stuff. Surely there's some action that the UCI can take against the team ?


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## thom (26 Nov 2014)

Surely Nibali has to leave Astana.
I think he's clean and I thought he cares.
If he doesn't leave after all this, it's not that I think he's a doper, it's just he's condoning a culture where people gave it a shot.

He should get out for his own credibility.


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## ColinJ (26 Nov 2014)

thom said:


> Surely Nibali has to leave Astana.
> I think he's clean and I thought he cares.
> If he doesn't leave after all this, it's not that I think he's a doper, it's just he's condoning a culture where people gave it a shot.
> 
> He should get out for his own credibility.


I've been thinking that too!

He surely can't just go on saying that he is "angry" about those riders when every new case makes his position more uncomfortable ...


----------



## The Couch (27 Nov 2014)

ColinJ said:


> I've been thinking that too!
> 
> He surely can't just go on saying that he is "angry" about those riders when every new case makes his position more uncomfortable ...


Even Lars Boom, who hasn't ridden an official race with Astana yet (since he just transferred in) has already made a public comment on Astana (after the 4th guy was found out)


----------



## The Couch (27 Nov 2014)

Vino has found the solution to save the Astana World Tour team:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/vinokourov-suspends-astana-continental-team



> The young riders are crazy if they still haven't understood that there is no place for doping in cycling


 



> People have to understand that they (the Continental team) has nothing to do with this team (the Astana WorldTour team). The only thing we have in common is the jersey and the name.


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## oldroadman (27 Nov 2014)

Interesting take on credibility.


----------



## resal (27 Nov 2014)

thom said:


> Surely Nibali has to leave Astana.
> I think he's clean and I thought he cares.
> If he doesn't leave after all this, it's not that I think he's a doper, it's just he's condoning a culture where people gave it a shot.
> 
> He should get out for his own credibility.





oldroadman said:


> Interesting take on credibility.



Made my day ! Not wearing a yellow wrist band but the determination "to believe" is awesome. 

All those Sky jerseys sold - some serious skin has been put in the game. I would not like to be opening those kit drawers before going on a ride. 

Back to Astana - I still on with my plot - Makarov will be more than capable of finding out where the skeletons are - a few riders closer to home will need to hope Cookson keeps him sweet - I would love to know what he has against Astana.


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## smutchin (27 Nov 2014)

resal said:


> I would love to know what he has against Astana.



Er, five positive doping tests? It's there in the reports. 

Not entirely clear why the news of another doper at Astana should indicate that Makarov is going after Sky... Are you Ted Rogers? Is the answer Dusty Bin?


----------



## thom (27 Nov 2014)

oldroadman said:


> Interesting take on credibility.


You think people won't put 2 and 2 together to get 5 ?

Interesting take on humanity, curious take on cycling fans in particular !

Cyclists, old or new, know what fans expect : they should be prepared to put the sport before themselves and condemn doping by their actions.

Thats how they get credibility. Winning is not the only way to earn respect.

He's risking his reputation - that is stating the blooming obvious.


----------



## rich p (27 Nov 2014)

resal said:


> Made my day ! Not wearing a yellow wrist band but the determination "to believe" is awesome.
> 
> All those Sky jerseys sold - some serious skin has been put in the game. I would not like to be opening those kit drawers before going on a ride.
> 
> Back to Astana - I still on with my plot - Makarov will be more than capable of finding out where the skeletons are - a few riders closer to home will need to hope Cookson keeps him sweet - I would love to know what he has against Astana.


Still on the brake fluid?


----------



## oldroadman (28 Nov 2014)

thom said:


> You think people won't put 2 and 2 together to get 5 ?
> 
> Interesting take on humanity, curious take on cycling fans in particular !
> 
> ...





oldroadman said:


> Interesting take on credibility.



"Interesting take on credibility" - maybe an irony alert should have been attached.
Vino scores zero in the cred department. As confirmed by a lot of the reactions on The Mall in 2012.


----------



## thom (29 Nov 2014)

oldroadman said:


> "Interesting take on credibility" - maybe an irony alert should have been attached.
> Vino scores zero in the cred department. As confirmed by a lot of the reactions on The Mall in 2012.


Ah I see.
The whole Astana thing is just really sad for Nibali.
I hope he moves on.


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## smutchin (30 Nov 2014)

Roman Kreuziger: "I did not have sexual relations with that woman."

http://velonews.competitor.com/2014...ssport-data-online-reasserts-innocence_354513

Nobber


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## Pro Tour Punditry (30 Nov 2014)

smutchin said:


> Roman Kreuziger: "I did not have sexual relations with that woman."
> 
> http://velonews.competitor.com/2014...ssport-data-online-reasserts-innocence_354513
> 
> Nobber



It's almost comical reading his statements.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (30 Nov 2014)

Greg Henderson has tweeted that he started the TdF in 2012 with a 46 haematocrit and ended with 39, and called for Kreuziger to publish his data for all GTs.


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## Bollo (4 Dec 2014)

I really can't see the UCI having the bottle to pull Astana's licence, but it looks like they're rubbing their chin and tutting....

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/dec/04/vincenzo-nibali-astana-tour-de-france


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## rich p (6 Dec 2014)

Bollo said:


> I really can't see the UCI having the bottle to pull Astana's licence, but it looks like they're rubbing their chin and tutting....
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/dec/04/vincenzo-nibali-astana-tour-de-france


No, they probably won't but having support from another doping team chief probably doesn't help their campaign!
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ekimov-supports-astana-worldtour-licence

/


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## Stonechat (6 Dec 2014)

Rumour is that they won't get a licence

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news...rldtour-licence-2015-according-reports-147842


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## rich p (6 Dec 2014)

Stonechat said:


> Rumour is that they won't get a licence
> 
> http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news...rldtour-licence-2015-according-reports-147842


That would be a surprise but a good message from the UCI.
I'm not sure whether CAS would uphold it in the event of an appeal but, then again, I'm not sure of the rules for refusing a licence.


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## BalkanExpress (7 Dec 2014)

Anyone following the Italian Press? The Belgian media are picking up on a report in La Republicca that the Prosecutor in Padoa has complied 550 pages (!) on Dr Ferrari's links with Astana


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## Bollo (7 Dec 2014)

BalkanExpress said:


> Anyone following the Italian Press? The Belgian media are picking up on a report in La Republicca that the Prosecutor in Padoa has complied 550 pages (!) on Dr Ferrari's links with Astana


Much as I'd like to see the Italian justice system apply swift and effective judgement, doesn't it have a reputation for disappearing up its own culo in legal procedure. I doubt they'll deliver the death blow to Astana in any timescale that matters.

This article isn't completely clear, but I think it's saying that the licence commission will make their decision on the 10th.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/dec/06/uci-astana-drugs-tests-licence-cycling


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## Pro Tour Punditry (7 Dec 2014)

Astana must go:
http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-gear/gear-shed/cycle-life/Astanas-Finish-Line.html


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## rich p (7 Dec 2014)

BalkanExpress said:


> Anyone following the Italian Press? The Belgian media are picking up on a report in La Republicca that the Prosecutor in Padoa has complied 550 pages (!) on Dr Ferrari's links with Astana


I'd almost forgotten about Padua! @Bollo is right that the wheels of Italian justice grind slowly but it won't need legal completeness to nail Astana. A well-prepared dossier could be enough for the UCI.


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## rich p (7 Dec 2014)

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/four-year-ferrari-investigation-handed-over-to-coni

Here's Cyclingnews' take on it. Is there enough ammunition there so far?


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## rich p (8 Dec 2014)

_Gazzetta dello Sport says investigators have photos of Dr Ferrari's visit to Astana's Montecatini pre-season camp last year_

On twitter just now. If it's true one wonders why it's only surfacing now since Doc F is an unperson in cycling.
<edit> I suppose they may only just have got hold of the photos!


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## Bollo (8 Dec 2014)

rich p said:


> _Gazzetta dello Sport says investigators have photos of Dr Ferrari's visit to Astana's Montecatini pre-season camp last year_
> 
> On twitter just now. If it's true one wonders why it's only surfacing now since Doc F is an unperson in cycling.
> <edit> I suppose they may only just have got hold of the photos!



Are (a) Astana that dumb and (b) Doc F that good with the juice that it was worth risking direct contact?!


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## Hont (8 Dec 2014)

Bollo said:


> Are (a) Astana that dumb and (b) Doc F that good with the juice that it was worth risking direct contact?!


a) Vino is, if you recall the excuses he expected us to swallow after his failed test in 2007.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (10 Dec 2014)

Another rider has appeared on the provisional suspension list, Robert Massot of France, who is the current age group world champion for the 55-59 age group - another anabolic steroid failure.


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## The Couch (10 Dec 2014)

Not sure, if this exercise would be done for other teams, that the result wouldn't be similar... but still an impressive resume:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/astana-timeline-eight-years-of-shadows


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## Cycleops (10 Dec 2014)




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## Pro Tour Punditry (10 Dec 2014)

User said:


> *The 38 NAMES *
> 
> Alexandre Vinokourov


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## Pro Tour Punditry (10 Dec 2014)

Cycling Pro on twitter reporting Astana keep their licence.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (10 Dec 2014)

Now more reports confirming it


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## Pro Tour Punditry (10 Dec 2014)

A quick celebratory glass of champers before they head off to juice up


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## gavintc (10 Dec 2014)

And the story continues - Astana will be racing this year. 

A very sad decision in the long battle of cleaning up pro cycling from doping - not good.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (10 Dec 2014)

Europcar denied World Tour licence due to budget shortfall - maybe if the cheats like Astana fúcked off out of the sport, eh?


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## Pro Tour Punditry (10 Dec 2014)

The slopey shoulders of Brian Cookson: "I would like to thank the Licence Commission, who has carried out its work thoroughly, professionally and independently of the UCI."
http://www.uci.ch/pressreleases/2015-uci-worldtour-decisions-the-licence-commission/


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## Crackle (10 Dec 2014)

Marmion said:


> The slopey shoulders of Brian Cookson: "I would like to thank the Licence Commission, who has carried out its work thoroughly, professionally and independently of the UCI."
> http://www.uci.ch/pressreleases/2015-uci-worldtour-decisions-the-licence-commission/


Bit harsh on the ruling. Basically on probation, independent audit and new structures designed for 2017 compliance, forced on them now


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## Pro Tour Punditry (10 Dec 2014)

inrng summary of what is wrong with the current system the granting of the licence:
http://inrng.com/2014/12/astana-uci-licence/

I hope the clean riders make their feelings towards Astana known, likewise the fans on the roadside.


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## montage (10 Dec 2014)

Gutted by this.

1. There is a very, very, very slim chance that Nibbles is clean following all this - shame as he was a rider I always believed in, and possibly re soils the tour de france. I pray I am wrong.
2. Astana aren't exactly blowing everyone apart every race, so what is everyone else on? Have all the riders named seen a drop in performance if they left Astana, or have any donkeys become race horses since signing? Kreuziger for a start has excelled at Saxo Bank, so obviously doping is slipping through the net there (as if this wasn't obviously from Dertie Bertie's actions).

Vino has very obviously introduced / proactively endorsed doping into Astana - if not for the whole team, then just for those who have asked. Maybe it's time to just accept doping is still rife and just give in on following the pro peloton.


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## SWSteve (10 Dec 2014)

such disapoint by this news. I was hoping something strong would happen - but was aware if this was the case then Nibali and Aru might not make the WT/PT next year - and possibly see their licence not granted. 

Not having Europcar at every race will be disappointing, I was looking forward to seeing Coquard face against the 2nd string of sprinters as he builds towards the sprint events for the track (he has stated that he is aiming for sprint events at Rio 2016 - which Europcar weren't too happy about) and would get agood showing at some classics/early stages in the season before Kittel and Cav showed up to take away wins. 

I just hope Nibali is clean. If not, why have I invested so much into this sport. (professional basis, not me struggling to cycle around Somerset)


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## SWSteve (10 Dec 2014)

Marmion said:


> inrng summary of what is wrong with the current system the granting of the licence:
> http://inrng.com/2014/12/astana-uci-licence/
> 
> I hope the clean riders make their feelings towards Astana known, likewise the fans on the roadside.




is nibbles drinking sparkling wine from a normal wine glass, not a flute/champagne glass? tasteless


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## themosquitoking (10 Dec 2014)

ItsSteveLovell said:


> such disapoint by this news. I was hoping something strong would happen - but was aware if this was the case then Nibali and Aru might not make the WT/PT next year - and possibly see their licence not granted.
> 
> Not having Europcar at every race will be disappointing, I was looking forward to seeing Coquard face against the 2nd string of sprinters as he builds towards the sprint events for the track (he has stated that he is aiming for sprint events at Rio 2016 - which Europcar weren't too happy about) and would get agood showing at some classics/early stages in the season before Kittel and Cav showed up to take away wins.
> 
> I just hope Nibali is clean. If not, why have I invested so much into this sport. (professional basis, not me struggling to cycle around Somerset)


Did you invest it all because of Nibali? It's rubbish if someone you admire turns out to be a cheat but there's plenty more out there to enjoy. Until they get caught too. Personally i hope very few of the current riders under about 27 are on the juice, they would have grown up during all the crap about taking peds and still kept at it, hopefully determined to show it can be done without. Rose coloured spectacles and all that.


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## themosquitoking (10 Dec 2014)

ItsSteveLovell said:


> is nibbles drinking sparkling wine from a normal wine glass, not a flute/champagne glass? tasteless


The best champagne tastes alight even if drunk from a tramps boot, DNAHIKT.


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## SWSteve (10 Dec 2014)

themosquitoking said:


> Did you invest it all because of Nibali? It's rubbish if someone you admire turns out to be a cheat but there's plenty more out there to enjoy. Until they get caught too. Personally i hope very few of the current riders under about 27 are on the juice, they would have grown up during all the crap about taking peds and still kept at it, hopefully determined to show it can be done without. Rose coloured spectacles and all that.




No, I didn't invest because of Nibali. I invested time because I felt some of these people should be admired. Having the top dog (nibbles) be so heavily mixed up in dopage makes me feel that there's more going on that what he says. I understand there are 2 sides of this team, the Kazakh and the Italian, but there's a point where they will meet, and this may be in training or developmental methodology, and that is where different products may become discussed. 

The rubbish blue kit has never appealed to me, I prefer something a lot more striking, so I shalln't be seen in it any time soon.


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## SWSteve (10 Dec 2014)

themosquitoking said:


> DNAHIKT


?


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## themosquitoking (10 Dec 2014)

ItsSteveLovell said:


> No, I didn't invest because of Nibali. I invested time because I felt some of these people should be admired. Having the top dog (nibbles) be so heavily mixed up in dopage makes me feel that there's more going on that what he says. I understand there are 2 sides of this team, the Kazakh and the Italian, but there's a point where they will meet, and this may be in training or developmental methodology, and that is where different products may become discussed.
> 
> The rubbish blue kit has never appealed to me, I prefer something a lot more striking, so I shalln't be seen in it any time soon.


There's more going on in any situation then anyone involved in it is prepared to say. The two sides of this team are nowhere near as separate as they claim.


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## themosquitoking (10 Dec 2014)

ItsSteveLovell said:


> ?


I hope this means do not ask how i know this. I checked it with google and this forum was like three of the top five answers.


----------



## Flick of the Elbow (11 Dec 2014)

I hope every roadside fan makes their feelings known to Astana riders and vehicle occupants this season.


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## jifdave (11 Dec 2014)

Pete kennaugh was having a good shout on Twitter about kicking dirty riders out. 

I for one have lost all faith in nibali and it's starting to taint aru for me too. Although I give him a little slack as he's Young.


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## Hont (11 Dec 2014)

Flick of the Elbow said:


> I hope every roadside fan makes their feelings known to Astana riders and vehicle occupants this season.


+1. If the governing body are toothless*, we armchair and roadside fans should make our feelings clear.

*The licence decision was apparently made before the latest Padova revelations, so the licence may yet be revoked (but probably not)....

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-awards-astana-worldtour-licence

_"....if the UCI confirms the offences brought in the Padova case, it "would prompt a referral to the Licence Commission to envisage, if necessary, the withdrawal of the licence."_


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## Bollo (11 Dec 2014)

Flick of the Elbow said:


> I hope every roadside fan makes their feelings known to Astana riders and vehicle occupants this season.


I suspect Vino might even like a little boo-ing in the panto style.

The trouble is that it's not the roadside fans that pays the wages - it's the sponsors, which in this case is the Kazakhstan sovereign wealth fund. Unless the world stops buying their oil, gas and uranium then they couldn't give a flying daffodil what anyone thinks.


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## Hont (11 Dec 2014)

ItsSteveLovell said:


> I invested time because I felt some of these people should be admired.



1) That statement suggests you got no enjoyment out of the spectacle of the bike race itself, which I'm sure is not true.

Anyone watching cycling should do so with their eyes well and truly open. It's had about 100 years of doping problems, if you're watching thinking that everyone is suddenly clean you're being naive. Nobody winning a Grand Tour will be above suspicion, probably ever.

2) Very few sportsmen at the top of sport should be admired. Even ones who don't cheat at their job / don't cheat on their partners / don't dodge tax / don't rape teenagers / aren't racist / don't fix games / don't think they're above the law / don't prostitute themselves for money they don't need, are still incredibly self-centred, uninteresting human beings, simply because to become that good you have to be incredibly dedicated. And if you're that dedicated, everything else takes a back seat. Ever watch a sportsmen on a celebrity quiz show? They know f**k all about anything, simply because they haven't had the time or energy to take an interest in anything but their own career.

A little disillusioned I know, but this week we've had the Astana/Padova revelations, an IAAF cover-up (225 athletes), Rory Mcilroy aledgedly destroying evidence in a case brought solely because he wants to wheedle out of an agreement because he realised he could earn more outside of it, and the ten minutes of football I watched this week saw a player being sent off when his finger brushed an opposing player, who went down like he'd been shot with an elephant gun.


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## Hont (11 Dec 2014)

montage said:


> Astana aren't exactly blowing everyone apart every race, so what is everyone else on?


Bear in mind this is all micro-dosing/blood-doping, flying under the Bio-Passport radar (or not in Krueziger's case). Micro means just that; it won't turn a carthorse into a thoroughbred. It will also be far more effective in GT's (than shorter races) of which there are only three a year, none of which would I be willing to bet that a clean rider won in 2014.


----------



## SWSteve (11 Dec 2014)

Hont said:


> 1) That statement suggests you got no enjoyment out of the spectacle of the bike race itself, which I'm sure is not true.
> 
> Anyone watching cycling should do so with their eyes well and truly open. It's had about 100 years of doping problems, if you're watching thinking that everyone is suddenly clean you're being naive. Nobody winning a Grand Tour will be above suspicion, probably ever.
> 
> ...



1) Yes, I can see what you are saying, however if these people are put on pedestals for us to view in the public image, the pedestal shouldn't have some flimsy plaster hiding what is behind it. The idea of 'but you enjoyed it, didn't you' doesn't justify what was happening. if you believe that was the case, then why can;t this be taken to other scenarios.

2) I don't believe this is the case. Real people can have real heroes, and it doesn't need to be the whole of the character which you can use for a role model or to draw influence from. Saying they do all of those wrong/taboo actions doesn't mean that is all they are, there is much more to this person. Just because someone makes a stack of cash from 'prostitution for money that they don't need' it doesn't mean that is all they are/all they have achieved.


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## SWSteve (11 Dec 2014)

User13710 said:


> 'People' is gender-neutral, but Hont's post specifically referred to 'sportsmen'. Women's sport is cleaner than men's in general.



the first part of his first reply, below, is also gender neutral


Hont said:


> 1) That statement suggests you got no enjoyment out of the spectacle of the bike race itself, which I'm sure is not true.
> 
> Anyone watching cycling should do so with their eyes well and truly open. It's had about 100 years of doping problems, if you're watching thinking that everyone is suddenly clean you're being naive. Nobody winning a Grand Tour will be above suspicion, probably ever.


----------



## SWSteve (11 Dec 2014)

User13710 said:


> Yes. And?



I just don't see why you only called me on it.


----------



## SWSteve (11 Dec 2014)

User13710 said:


> Oversensitive much? I was just pointing out that women's sport is much cleaner than men's, so it might be good to avoid lumping us in with them.



Not at all, I was just wondering why you singled me out.


----------



## Bollo (11 Dec 2014)

Just heard fat Pat on 5 live. If you really need to, I'm sure you can listen again on iplayer. But, to summarise, he's still the same **** he always was.


----------



## rich p (11 Dec 2014)

User13710 said:


> Oversensitive much? I was just pointing out that women's sport is much cleaner than men's, so it might be good to avoid lumping us in with them.


I'm not sure that is true in athletics.


----------



## Crackle (11 Dec 2014)

rich p said:


> I'm not sure that is true in athletics.


Or tennis, or swimming. And I don't know if it's improved but I'm sure a few women cyclists highlighted there were virtually no out of competition test done at one time.


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## ColinJ (11 Dec 2014)

User13710 said:


> I was just pointing out that women's sport is much cleaner than men's, so it might be good to avoid lumping us in with them.


I think it is inconsistent to insist on gender-neutrality for positive subjects but then to complain about gender-neutrality for negative ones!

I can think of several female pro cyclists who are strongly suspected of doping.


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## fimm (12 Dec 2014)

East German female athletes, anyone?


----------



## Hont (12 Dec 2014)

ItsSteveLovell said:


> The idea of 'but you enjoyed it, didn't you' doesn't justify what was happening.



Agree 100%. But you used the phrase that you "invested time" as if you got no enjoyment from actually watching the races. As if watching cycling was done under duress in the hope that the participants might be worthy of your respect. 

I got tremendous entertainment from Armstrong on Alpe D'Huez in 2001, which has since become tainted, but I still have good memories of watching that race. If you have to believe that cycling is completely clean to derive any pleasure from it, you should probably stop watching.



ItsSteveLovell said:


> Real people can have real heroes


Agree 100%. But choose this guy, not a sportsman. Getting paid millions to do what most people choose to do for free is not heroic.


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## Crackle (12 Dec 2014)

fimm said:


> East German female athletes, anyone?


Have you got some on offer. Two for a fiver?


----------



## rich p (12 Dec 2014)

fimm said:


> East German female athletes, anyone?





Crackle said:


> Have you got some on offer. Two for a fiver?



I think you'll find that the Jamaican, Kenyan and Russian female athletes are the bargains this year.


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## ColinJ (15 Dec 2014)

I was just having a clear out of old cycling magazines and spotted this in one of them ...


Sports Tours International advert said:


> 23rd March, 2007, Mallorca
> 
> Evaluation camp with Dr Ferrari [_Find the Truth_]


Ha ha ha! 

Dr Ferrari's verdict - The truth is that you won't be able to ride as fast as Armstrong unless you substitute EPO for your breakfast OJ, and blood doping for your vitamin supplements!


----------



## oldroadman (15 Dec 2014)

User13710 said:


> I still think it's possible that most of that doesn't apply to women in sport though.


Why not? The rewards are increasing all the time and in some sports are astronomical. Wherever there is a lot of money to be made, some will do what bthey consider necessary to achieve their ambitions. Gender is of no consequence. More men use illegal methods because there is more top end sport and money for men, a simple equation. Percentages would be a more accurate guide. I would like it to be zero - at least in cycling - then the other sports who "don't have a problem" might just clean up or at least make an effort, which quite a few high profile sports don't seem to be inclined to do because of the money and reputations involved.


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## Bollo (16 Dec 2014)

And back to our friends at Astana.....

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...n-warns-astana-future-is-still-in-the-balance

Cookson is far too media-savvy to say anything too interesting, but it looks to me like he's trying to put enough space between the UCI and the licence commission decision to avoid any fallout from another positive test.


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## rich p (17 Dec 2014)

Another apparently team led doping catch
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/new...n-finish-revealed-fake-madiot-twitter-account

*Mexican cyclist arrested at Spanish airport with EPO, HGH*
_Spanish customs agents arrested Mexican cyclist Jose Alfredo Aguirre in April at the Alicante airport with EPO and human growth hormone in his carry-on baggage, according to a report Monday in the Spanish sports daily AS.
The website reported that the 20-year-old athlete, who is part of the Spanish Mutua Levante elite U23 team, intended to smuggle the prohibited substances from Mexico to Spain. Aguirre apparently carried the contraband among his personal belongings at the request of José Maldonado for team director José Vicente Peidro, who was not available for comment, according to the report._


----------



## oldroadman (17 Dec 2014)

rich p said:


> Another apparently team led doping catch
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/new...n-finish-revealed-fake-madiot-twitter-account
> 
> *Mexican cyclist arrested at Spanish airport with EPO, HGH*
> ...


Usual news report inaccuracy, it's either an U23 or an Elite team. A young rider who looks as if he made a bad decision. I would be after his management. But why smuggle the stuff anyway, it's available if the management know where to go, which says a bit about their competency and attitude to rider health. The management are OK with a 20 year old taking the hit then? Stinks.


----------



## DRM (17 Dec 2014)

Apparently all Astana team cars are to have a new sticker on the back that reads "My other Dr is a Ferrari"


----------



## User169 (18 Dec 2014)

Possibly the stupidest fail.

Mauro Santambrogio has tested +ve for testosterone in an out of competition test whilst still serving an EPO ban.

The daft nobber got tested in October, just before his ban ended at the beginning of November, shortly after which he signed for Amore e Vita.

FFS!


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (18 Dec 2014)

Delftse Post said:


> Possibly the stupidest fail.
> 
> Mauro Santambrogio has tested +ve for testosterone in an out of competition test whilst still serving an EPO ban.
> 
> ...



Nobber.
At least that should be the last we see of the twat.


----------



## User169 (18 Dec 2014)

Marmion said:


> Nobber.
> At least that should be the last we see of the twat.



It just gets better. This is what he said just after signing for Amore...

""I was wrong, I suffered a lot, I struggled to find a way out, but I finally found the courage to redeem myself. Now a new life begins for me. I start from scratch and want to prove that I can win clean."


----------



## Berk on a Bike (18 Dec 2014)

Santambrogio is certainly trying to set new lows. Indulged by the Reform Commission and given a reduced ban. Trusted by a new team with an opportunity to start afresh. So he reoffends. In November he said, “Anyway, I’m convinced that a donkey can’t become a thoroughbred with doping.” He's destined to be a donkey.


----------



## Crackle (18 Dec 2014)

The dog ate his TUE.


----------



## Berk on a Bike (18 Dec 2014)

Not just a dick...

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/santambrogio-claims-he-took-testosterone-as-infertility-treatment


----------



## Crackle (18 Dec 2014)

Berk on a Bike said:


> Not just a dick...
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/santambrogio-claims-he-took-testosterone-as-infertility-treatment


The worrying bit about that is, he's trying to breed.


----------



## deptfordmarmoset (18 Dec 2014)

Berk on a Bike said:


> Not just a dick...
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/santambrogio-claims-he-took-testosterone-as-infertility-treatment


Now he's had his fertility treatment, he can at least now go forth and multiply.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (18 Dec 2014)

Crackle said:


> The worrying bit about that is, he's trying to breed.



The best thing for him would be to bugger off from cycling, have a family and get on with his life. Put it all behind him and look to the future. Baking bread sounds like a plan (or a pane since he is Italian, or indeed a pain if he had been French)


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (18 Dec 2014)

As I don't want to kick off another Armstrong thread or resurrect a previous one, I thought I'd use this thread to mention the "doping git". The most recent Rouleur magazine has part 1 of a 2 part article on him, and he's a deluded as ever. Completely tonto, suggesting that if riders had more control that they would stop doping as they would self-regulate. Nobber.


----------



## rich p (18 Dec 2014)

Jeez, what a twunt.
The spirit of Ricco lives


----------



## HF2300 (19 Dec 2014)

Presumably because self-regulation and more rider control did so well at stopping omerta and the bullying of riders by Armstrong and the peloton


----------



## rich p (19 Dec 2014)

I love this quote by my favourite ársehole, Riccardo Ricco...


"I wouldn't make the same mistakes that I made. I wouldn't dope, or I'd at least do it differently."

A born again idiot.


----------



## oldroadman (19 Dec 2014)

rich p said:


> I love this quote by my favourite ársehole, Riccardo Ricco...
> 
> 
> "I wouldn't make the same mistakes that I made. I wouldn't dope, or I'd at least do it differently."
> ...



+1. The sport is better off without him, although it's rumoured he has been riding and "winning" sportives. I bet all the people behind him are really impressed. As for Signor S, his excuses are pathetic, artificial testosterone is known to REDUCE fertility, so perhaps he won't be breeding after all. No comment!


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (19 Dec 2014)

I check the provisional list a couple of times a week (I most recently checked yesterday morning and there was no mention of Santaclausbrogio so he must have been listed not long afterwards), but have not looked at the Sanctions list for a few weeks and as a result missed this one:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/north-americans-react-to-luca-benedettis-lifetime-ban


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (19 Dec 2014)

Marmion said:


> Nobber.



More evidence of Arnstrong being a nobber, bottom paragraph on page 2:
http://www.golfdigest.com/magazine/2015-01/my-shot-lance-armstrong?currentPage=2


----------



## HF2300 (19 Dec 2014)

We need more evidence?


----------



## Ganymede (19 Dec 2014)

Marmion said:


> More evidence of Arnstrong being a nobber, bottom paragraph on page 2:
> http://www.golfdigest.com/magazine/2015-01/my-shot-lance-armstrong?currentPage=2


Oh dear. I'd just eaten a sandwich when I read that and had a hard time keeping it down. Will avoid henceforth to save own stomach....

I want to write something very rude in very big type.


----------



## rich p (19 Dec 2014)

Ganymede said:


> Oh dear. I'd just eaten a sandwich when I read that and had a hard time keeping it down. Will avoid henceforth to save own stomach....
> 
> I want to write something very rude in very big type.


I love it when you talk dirty


----------



## oldroadman (20 Dec 2014)

Marmion said:


> More evidence of Arnstrong being a nobber, bottom paragraph on page 2:
> http://www.golfdigest.com/magazine/2015-01/my-shot-lance-armstrong?currentPage=2



What a pile of steaming substance that article is, written for an audience who maybe sees nothing wrong about a proven cheating bully putting down the sport that made him millions. Yuk. I can understand the nausea caused above.


----------



## smutchin (20 Dec 2014)

oldroadman said:


> written for an audience who maybe sees nothing wrong about a proven cheating bully putting down the sport that made him millions.



Golf is one of those sports that "doesn't have a drug problem", isn't it? Figures.


----------



## Stonechat (20 Dec 2014)

smutchin said:


> Golf is one of those sports that "doesn't have a drug problem", isn't it? Figures.


So far ...


----------



## ColinJ (20 Dec 2014)

smutchin said:


> Golf is one of those sports that "doesn't have a drug problem", isn't it? Figures.





Stonechat said:


> So far ...


They already have a problem - they just don't test enough to know the scale of it ... PGA Tour golfer banned for doping. Golf's anti-doping policy is disgraceful, says Greg Norman!


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (26 Dec 2014)

User13710 said:


> OK, I stand corrected. Some women probably dope too.



The latest addition to the provisional suspension list most likely did, Lilibeth Chacon Garcia of Venezuala suspended for EPO


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (26 Dec 2014)

Also an interesting story about one of the latest to appear on the sanctions list, Jack Burke of Canada
http://www.thestar.com/sports/amate...etitive_cyclist_cant_shake_doping_record.html


----------



## User169 (28 Dec 2014)

Lots of top athletes diagnosed with asthma...

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/dec/28/asthma-elite-athletes-study-swimmers-cyclist-eid


----------



## rich p (28 Dec 2014)

Delftse Post said:


> Lots of top athletes diagnosed with asthma...
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/dec/28/asthma-elite-athletes-study-swimmers-cyclist-eid


Interesting. When I used to run a lot, there was anecdotal evidence of EIA and upper respiratory tract infections even at my level of training.
Dos this mean Petacchi is innocent?


----------



## The Couch (5 Jan 2015)

Marmion said:


> More evidence of Arnstrong being a nobber, bottom paragraph on page 2:
> http://www.golfdigest.com/magazine/2015-01/my-shot-lance-armstrong?currentPage=2





> If I moved my ball in the rough and got caught, I wouldn't just regret it, I'd be heartbroken forever.


So stomping on Betsy Andreu is not as bad as moving his golf ball in the rough for LA?


----------



## Hont (5 Jan 2015)

Amstrong said:


> If I moved my ball in the rough...



Does he ever stop thinking about cheating?


----------



## The Couch (6 Jan 2015)

Not doping related ... but it does fall under the name cheating:
https://translate.google.com/transl...ortwereld/cnt/dmf20150105_01459043&edit-text=
(sorry for the Google translate, but couldn't find an English version)

I guess not uncommon for rich sportsmen people to do so, I guess they're just a bit unlucky that they live in a country that (somewhat) bothers with these things


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (22 Jan 2015)

UCI chief medical officer implicated by the Chicken:
http://velonews.competitor.com/2015...rio-zorzoli-ucis-chief-medical-officer_359005


----------



## smutchin (22 Jan 2015)

Dirty Gertie banned 4eva...

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/jan/22/geert-leinders-life-ban-team-sky-doctor


----------



## wam68 (22 Jan 2015)

Marmion said:


> UCI chief medical officer implicated by the Chicken:
> http://velonews.competitor.com/2015...rio-zorzoli-ucis-chief-medical-officer_359005


Gonna bury my head in the sand for a few years till this is all over


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (24 Jan 2015)

Evidence of popping a pill?

http://video.weibo.com/show?fid=1034:c120ac60ba1dceb41f91c141e1b74693


----------



## threebikesmcginty (26 Jan 2015)

Probably posted before but anyway poor Lance...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/30981609


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (26 Jan 2015)

This Lance?
"Travis Tygart is a megalomaniac, out to make himself famous." Lance Armstrong interviewed in issue 51 of Rouleur.


----------



## Ganymede (26 Jan 2015)

Oh god I'm listening to it on PM at the moment. He is actually saying that it's terribly sad that he couldn't now, if he wanted, do a sponsored bike ride and raise hundreds of thousands of pounds to help people with MS (he actually used his "Mom" getting MS as a potential scenario). Because his reputation has been destroyed by the severity of the punishment. 

PASS THE SICK BUCKET!

Also... he obviously never heard of Profumo, who did endless LOW PROFILE charity work to atone for his own nefarious activities. Yes Lance, it is possible but not if you want to be glorified at the same time. 

FECK!!!!


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (26 Jan 2015)

He does get this bit correct in the Rouleur article:
"I can’t change that narrative. I’m forever the peanut."

Funny how he can't see that he could change the future narrative and wants to remain the peanut.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (26 Jan 2015)

LOL ásshole is changed to peanut


----------



## Bollo (26 Jan 2015)

Just listened to a bit of the interview on 5 Live. Always useful to remind yourself what a galaxy-sized c*** he is.


----------



## Ganymede (26 Jan 2015)

Bollo said:


> Just listened to a bit of the interview on 5 Live. Always useful to remind yourself what a galaxy-sized c*** he is.


Yep. Glaringly a narcissist.


----------



## dan_bo (26 Jan 2015)

He's on sky in the bar here. 

Fantastic cyclist and exemplary human being.


----------



## david k (26 Jan 2015)

Ganymede said:


> Oh god I'm listening to it on PM at the moment. He is actually saying that it's terribly sad that he couldn't now, if he wanted, do a sponsored bike ride and raise hundreds of thousands of pounds to help people with MS (he actually used his "Mom" getting MS as a potential scenario). Because his reputation has been destroyed by the severity of the punishment.
> 
> PASS THE SICK BUCKET!
> 
> ...


Yes it's a fascinating story of a human being and all his faults, it's as if he wants to become an assignment opportunity for a psychological degree.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (26 Jan 2015)

Why the f*ck do people keep giving him coverage? Best to ignore the twat


----------



## threebikesmcginty (26 Jan 2015)

Can I clarify, when I said poor Lance it was said in a sort of poor Lance the ****ing cheating lying scum **** way.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (26 Jan 2015)

I see his attention-seeking has sparked a flurry of threads elsewhere.

Peanut.


----------



## smutchin (26 Jan 2015)

Bollo said:


> Just listened to a bit of the interview on 5 Live. Always useful to remind yourself what a galaxy-sized c*** he is.





Ganymede said:


> Yep. Glaringly a narcissist.



ITYM narcissus (as in daffodil)


----------



## SWSteve (26 Jan 2015)

I don't think you are allowed to take 4 hours in the Boston Marathon


----------



## Browser (26 Jan 2015)

Boo flamin' hoo Mr Legweak, maybe if you'd not spent so much time viciferously denying allegations of your drug use, using your 'spotless' reputation and standing to attack and ruin those who sought to speak the truth about you, using your position to control races and bully other riders in the peloton and finally not ever admitting openly and fully that you CHEATED, I could feel a smidgeon of sympathy.
But, as it is, no, I feel none whatsoever. You made your bed, lie in it!


----------



## uphillstruggler (27 Jan 2015)

psychopathic bully

end of.


----------



## rich p (27 Jan 2015)

I think most of us said all we have to say on Armstrong on the 300 page threads a while ago. He's on my ignore list now.


----------



## User169 (27 Jan 2015)

rich p said:


> I think most of us said all we have to say on Armstrong on the 300 page threads a while ago. He's on my ignore list now.



Not sure we said all there is to be said about USADA's jurisdiction!!


----------



## rich p (27 Jan 2015)

Delftse Post said:


> Not sure we said all there is to be said about USADA's jurisdiction!!


Shhhh. don't wake the tro.........


----------



## oldroadman (27 Jan 2015)

He brought disgrace on himself, bullied other riders, bullied anyone who tried to say anything about him he didn't like, bullied anyone who wanted to tell the truth, and generally acted like a grade one a-hole. Got caught out, banned, has a quietish period, now seeks to be "forgiven" because "everyone else was doing it". For instance, Christophe Bassons who he helped hound out, who tried to do the job clean, like others who tried to protect their health whilst making a living. The man has zero shame and maximum ego. This is just a pathetic PR campaign, and his comments about the UCI president will obviously help any case he thinks he may have.....


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (27 Jan 2015)

Funnily enough I am currently re-reading "From Lance to Landis".

Peanuts! 


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7vX8hBudcQ


----------



## shadow master (28 Jan 2015)

Lance Armstrong in one word=irrelevant!


----------



## Flying_Monkey (28 Jan 2015)

On the other hand, I thought what he said about the 'new UCI' was entirely accurate...


----------



## rich p (28 Jan 2015)

Flying_Monkey said:


> On the other hand, I thought what he said about the 'new UCI' was entirely accurate...


Apart from saying that Cookson was negligent and feeble in not denying Astana a licence on the one hand, and then going on to admit that his hands had been tied by present regulation.
Cake and eating it?


----------



## raindog (28 Jan 2015)

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNCPEzdZs5s


----------



## thom (28 Jan 2015)

smutchin said:


> ITYM narcissus (as in daffodil)


He really liked daffodil coloured clothing too. 
Should have realised it betrayed his true self.

Personally I think the stuff about the UCI is tittle tattle. In real life there ain't such a thing as heroes who clicked their fingers and magically fixed everything.


----------



## Berk on a Bike (28 Jan 2015)

LA gets a bit part in a rock video by someone you've never heard of


----------



## ColinJ (28 Jan 2015)

Berk on a Bike said:


> LA gets a bit part in a rock video by someone you've never heard of


I can't think of a nicer person for it to happen to ... which of Lance's parts did the mountain lion bite? 








PS That was a joke!


----------



## ColinJ (28 Jan 2015)

ColinJ said:


> PS That was a joke!


That was me laughing at my own joke ...


----------



## Berk on a Bike (29 Jan 2015)

ColinJ said:


> I can't think of a nicer person for it to happen to ... which of Lance's parts did the mountain lion bite?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I thought it ironic that a past user hooks up with a band called future user.


----------



## Ed Phelan (29 Jan 2015)

Anyone seen the Lance Armstrong doc? Also, who else thinks an awesome biopic is urgently needed of LA's crazy doped up exploits?


----------



## ColinJ (29 Jan 2015)

Berk on a Bike said:


> I thought it ironic that a past user hooks up with a band called future user.


I think that was deliberate. At least, I _hope_ it was!


----------



## BrumJim (29 Jan 2015)

Ed Phelan said:


> Anyone seen the Lance Armstrong doc? Also, who else thinks an awesome biopic is urgently needed of LA's crazy doped up exploits?



Watched it on the plane last week. Taught me a bit more about Lance that was missing from my knowledge, having only recently got into cycling (doing) and pro racing (watching). A lot of allegations on there that Lance still denies. Film (I think) started off as a puff piece for LA, and then he admitted the doping on TV, and hence the film got completely re-written.


----------



## oldroadman (30 Jan 2015)

rich p said:


> Apart from saying that Cookson was negligent and feeble in not denying Astana a licence on the one hand, and then going on to admit that his hands had been tied by present regulation.
> Cake and eating it?


Where in lies Brian Cookson's dilemma. he wants to do the right thing and appears to have devolved decisions to commissions of experts who look at all the evidence and doubtless other matters, then arrive at a position. Hopefully the days of Presidents (*and "honorary past presidents") having a veto on everythhas to take the flack, he wanted the job and the days of being and being opaque are gone. BC will be judged when the next election comes, I hope he's in it for the long haul, at least two terms.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (1 Feb 2015)

Team Dope team presentation in Dubai, along with a man who seems to have had considerable influence in others' choice to dope (including his own son)


----------



## Berk on a Bike (1 Feb 2015)

Ed Phelan said:


> Anyone seen the Lance Armstrong doc? Also, who else thinks an awesome biopic is urgently needed of LA's crazy doped up exploits?


 Weren't there two biopics in production last year (separate from The Armstrong Lie doc)? What happened to them?


----------



## StuAff (1 Feb 2015)

Berk on a Bike said:


> Weren't there two biopics in production last year (separate from The Armstrong Lie doc)? What happened to them?


The Stephen Frears-directed one, based on David Walsh's 'Seven Deadly Sins', starring Ben Foster, has now been titled 'Icon', and is due in the autumn. JJ Abrams' production company is working on an adaption of Juliet Macur's 'Cycle of Lies'. Nothing concrete about that one yet. There's also one about Tyler Hamilton in the works.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (3 Feb 2015)

Slightly old news which I had missed, Ulissi's ban for testing positive at last year's Giro has been decided at 9 months, which means he'll be back riding in March 2015.

"The Italian, who had declared the use of an inhaler, was found by Swiss anti-doping authorities to have acted negligently but not with the intention to improve his performance, a Lampre-Merida statement said."
http://www1.skysports.com/cycling/n...n-for-failing-drugs-test-at-2014-giro-ditalia

I despair. I really do.
Meanwhile, the UCI announce something about how nice cycling is blah, blah, blah


----------



## thom (3 Feb 2015)

Marmion said:


> Slightly old news which I had missed, Ulissi's ban for testing positive at last year's Giro has been decided at 9 months, which means he'll be back riding in March 2015.
> 
> "The Italian, who had declared the use of an inhaler, was found by Swiss anti-doping authorities to have acted negligently but not with the intention to improve his performance, a Lampre-Merida statement said."
> http://www1.skysports.com/cycling/n...n-for-failing-drugs-test-at-2014-giro-ditalia
> ...


Are the actions of an independent anti-doping authority linked to the UCI these days ?


----------



## Ganymede (3 Feb 2015)

I was watching the night slalom on the telly on Sunday afternoon. Russian won it. I just couldn't help thinking he'd doped, he had a .7 second lead over chaps he'd never beaten before and was like a man-mountain. Mr G told me to shut up because it was perfectly possible and one of his descents had actually been slower than one of the other chaps'. I'd like to have been less suspicious. He was chuffing good though - real style too, so I think I'm going to stop thinking about it.


----------



## rich p (3 Feb 2015)

Ganymede said:


> so I think I'm going to stop thinking about it



Noooo, don't. Don't suspend your disbelief or you'll turn into an unthinking fanboi (or fangoil)


----------



## Crackle (3 Feb 2015)

Gargoil. At least that's what you said in the pm you sent me.


----------



## rich p (3 Feb 2015)

Crackle said:


> Gargoil. At least that's what you said in the pm you sent me.


The city's glamour can never spoil the dreams of a boy and goil....


----------



## Ganymede (3 Feb 2015)

rich p said:


> Noooo, don't. Don't suspend your disbelief or you'll turn into an unthinking fanboi (or fangoil)


You're right of course. It takes the fun out of it though, eh?


----------



## rich p (3 Feb 2015)

Ganymede said:


> You're right of course. It takes the fun out of it though, eh?


In a way, yes, but there's nothing wrong with being pragmatically sceptical and have a wary expectation that all may not be as it seems.
Especially at your my age!


----------



## rich p (3 Feb 2015)

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/vinokourov-questions-bmc-and-team-skys-absence-from-mpcc


----------



## smutchin (3 Feb 2015)

"It's too easy that many people just point at us..."

Yes, Al - far, far too easy to point at you.


----------



## Stonechat (4 Feb 2015)

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/vinokourov-questions-bmc-and-team-skys-absence-from-mpcc

Hmm Vinokourov does not realise tha the mpcc has no cred while they are in it


----------



## smutchin (4 Feb 2015)

Neri Sottoli still have a UCI licence despite being 'suspended' from the MPCC. And their logo still appears on the MPCC's website.

Does anyone really believe there's anything 'credible' about the MPCC?

It just reminds me of the charter all those teams signed in 1999 following the Festina affair.


----------



## The Couch (4 Feb 2015)

> Astana suspended itself from racing and missed the Tour of Beijing


Sound truly heart-braking, doesn't it ?



> We really would have preferred that Iglinsky hadn't waited a couple of days before accepting his doping penalty, then we would have been suspended for the Kazahk Tour and could have ridden the important - totally not inconveniently placed (both on location and timing) - Beijing Tour


Ok... this might not have been an exact quote 



> I have always maintained that this is a different matter than, for example, Rabobank or T-Mobile, where there was talk of organized doping from the team


Hey...?!? is he changing his stance and is he going to cooperate with the investigations about the old days and talk about who was all involved?
Naaa... probably a slip of the tongue




smutchin said:


> Neri Sottoli still have a UCI licence despite being 'suspended' from the MPCC. And their logo still appears on the MPCC's website.


Wow... I had to check that one out and indeed it's incredible, but true 
(although in their defense, at least it does say "equippe suspendue de MPCC" instead of the team-website link)


----------



## Stonechat (4 Feb 2015)

Perhjas we need a movement for credble cycling movements


----------



## smutchin (4 Feb 2015)

I'm thinking of starting the Movement For Claiming A Big Boy Did It And Ran Away. Vinokourov is welcome to join.


----------



## Stonechat (4 Feb 2015)

See Armstrong just can't help himself but to cheat - he got his wife to say he was driving in a car accident!


----------



## User169 (6 Feb 2015)

Picked up one of the commuter newspapers on the train this morning and there was an article on EPO and blood-doping suggesting that recent studies show they may not be effective as previously thought and that there is a big placebo effect! i'll see if I can find an English language reference.

Edit: this is one of the papers that was referred to I think..

http://www.hzg.de/imperia/md/conten.../bibliothek/journals/2014/hardemann_32186.pdf


----------



## ColinJ (6 Feb 2015)

Delftse Post said:


> Picked up one of the commuter newspapers on the train this morning and there was an article on EPO and blood-doping suggesting that recent studies show they may not be effective as previously thought and that there is a big placebo effect! i'll see if I can find an English language reference.
> 
> Edit: this is one of the papers that was referred to I think..
> 
> http://www.hzg.de/imperia/md/conten.../bibliothek/journals/2014/hardemann_32186.pdf


I haven't got time to read that carefully at the moment, but it is an interesting idea.

Having said that ... I don't believe that Armstrong achieved what he did having taken a drug which he believed would let him sprint up mountains on his bike, but which didn't really do much!


----------



## User169 (6 Feb 2015)

ColinJ said:


> I haven't got time to read that carefully at the moment, but it is an interesting idea.
> 
> Having said that ... I don't believe that Armstrong achieved what he did having taken a drug which he believed would let him sprint up mountains on his bike, but which didn't really do much!



That's certainly the way it looked, Colin!


----------



## ColinJ (6 Feb 2015)

Having written that ...

I noticed on one of my hilly routes that if I think about the little steep climb ahead, I grind my way up it and find it tough. I did it last week and was distracted, thinking about an old friend who died recently ... I suddenly realised that I was at the top of the climb without having noticed it!


----------



## SomethingLikeThat (6 Feb 2015)

I certainly find climbs easier on group rides when I'm talking and distracted. Perhaps not thinking about the route so much has something to do with it.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (6 Feb 2015)

That must be the answer - I'll phone all the pro cyclists right now and say "see all this drugs shite, forget it. Have a blether, stop for a cup of tea, relax. It's all cool."

Bingo.


----------



## rich p (7 Feb 2015)

Interesting article and food for thought but the performance drop-off of some notable dopers after being caught would suggest otherwise.
It's hard to believe that the placebo effect allowed Andy Schleck, Basso and Scarponi to fly away from quality fields although I appreciate that is based solely on jaundiced observation rather than science.
JTL is a recent case in point.


----------



## HF2300 (11 Feb 2015)

User said:


> ... stopping for a cup of *team*. Definite doper.



Obviously had a steaming mug of US Postal.


----------



## rich p (13 Feb 2015)

Don't you wish these fecking unrepentant dinosaurs would just fúck off out of cycling?
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/news-shorts-armstrong-treated-unfairly-says-yates


----------



## Crackle (13 Feb 2015)

rich p said:


> Don't you wish these fecking unrepentant dinosaurs would just fúck off out of cycling?
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/news-shorts-armstrong-treated-unfairly-says-yates


Or retire again. Has @Dayvo sent you that Yates book yet?


----------



## rich p (13 Feb 2015)

Crackle said:


> Or retire again. Has @Dayvo sent you that Yates book yet?


Was he going to? Hey, Dave, I don't want it.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (13 Feb 2015)

rich p said:


> Was he going to? Hey, Dave, I don't want it.



I have it - been meaning to send it on to you but forgot. I'll pop it in the post this week. You deserve it.


----------



## rich p (13 Feb 2015)

Sadly, it was lost in the post Marmy!


----------



## Dayvo (14 Feb 2015)

Crackle said:


> Or retire again. Has @Dayvo sent you that Yates book yet?



Cheeky bugger! I sent that book off on the 30th October*,* running from Terminal 5 to Terminal 3 and back again to ensure I made it in time.


----------



## Crackle (14 Feb 2015)

Dayvo said:


> Cheeky bugger! I sent that book off on the 30th October*,* running from Terminal 5 to Terminal 3 and back again to ensure I made it in time.


I never doubted you.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (14 Feb 2015)

If rich does not want the book (which he doesn't), do you want it back @Dayvo? Just in case you have nothing to light your fire...or a shoogly table leg.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (16 Feb 2015)

Armstrong loses the SCA case and is ordered to pay 10 million dollars.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (16 Feb 2015)

Here you go, nicely put:
http://cyclingtips.com.au/2015/02/a...to-pay-ten-million-dollars-to-sca-promotions/


----------



## Archie_tect (16 Feb 2015)

Marmion said:


> How about this one?
> View attachment 57923


...a Kellogg's 5K Fun Run medal and a Blue Peter badge...


----------



## Crackle (16 Feb 2015)

Wonder what his net worth is now. A number of artcles had it at 125million in 2012


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (16 Feb 2015)

SCA says Lance made "soft offer" to pay some over years. Adding "please send over a check for ten million dollars. I promise we will take it."


----------



## StuAff (16 Feb 2015)

David Walsh has commented on Twitter that he was pleased for Bob Hamman the SCA boss, 'an honourable man who fought the fight when it wasn't popular'. From what I've read about Hamman and the case, I'm not surprised at the result. He rightly refused to give up, and getting those depositions was key (and not just for this case...). No doubt that Armstrong's legal team will further deplete their client's remaining fortune finding yet more weasly technicalities in an effort to reverse this decision. And SCA are filing further claims against LA and Bob Stapleton.


----------



## threebikesmcginty (17 Feb 2015)

Let's go round and punch him in the face.


----------



## Dayvo (17 Feb 2015)

Marmion said:


> If rich does not want the book (which he doesn't), do you want it back @Dayvo? Just in case you have nothing to light your fire...or a shoogly table leg.



No thanks, but it was Crax's book anyway.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (21 Feb 2015)

The cycling world should be prepared for unpleasant reading in a few weeks on publication of the report of the Independent Commission looking into historic doping within the sport, the UCI president Brian Cookson has warned.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/feb/21/uci-brian-cookson-circ-doping-report-uncomfortable


----------



## HF2300 (22 Feb 2015)

It may be unpleasant, particularly for the sport's administrators and leaders, but frankly little or none of it is going to be a surprise.


----------



## Berk on a Bike (27 Feb 2015)

L'Equipe this morning is reporting a UCI recommendation to withdraw Astana's licence.

http://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme-sur-route/Article/Carton-rouge-pour-astana-nbsp/41720 [paywall for the full article]


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (27 Feb 2015)

2 further suspensions reported yesterday:
Alexandr Pliuschin posted a non-negative test for salbutamol in November 2014 while part of the Skydive Dubai Cycling team, and has been suspended by his current team, Synergy Baku Cycling project.
And the bronze medallist from the 2014 Central American and Caribbean Games, Adriana Rojas Cubero, has been sidelined after testing positive for clostebol.
http://cyclingtips.com.au/2015/02/daily-news-digest-24/

I note that Pliuschin's sanction is not yet on the UCI list, although Cubero's sanction does appear:
http://www.uci.ch/mm/Document/News/...0150226ProvisionalSuspensionEN2.0_English.pdf

And, always one for pointing fingers, I also note that Skydive Dubai is the team of Raffa Chtioui who won Tropical Amissa Bongo last week - and also Vladamir Gusev and Francisco Mancebo. Not a good vibe there...


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (27 Feb 2015)

Berk on a Bike said:


> L'Equipe this morning is reporting a UCI recommendation to withdraw Astana's licence.
> 
> http://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme-sur-route/Article/Carton-rouge-pour-astana-nbsp/41720 [paywall for the full article]



Here's the UCI statement
http://www.uci.ch/pressreleases/the-uci-requests-withdrawal-astana-pro-team-licence/


----------



## smutchin (27 Feb 2015)

Wow.


----------



## BigAl68 (27 Feb 2015)

Well that looks like the end of them. To be honest they had it coming. You got to wonder where nibbles will go now.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (27 Feb 2015)

And the announcement comes on the 25th anniversary of the death of Johannes Draaijer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Draaijer

edit - Kimmage did a series of reports on his life and death in the Irish Independent sometime last year, I'll try to find them later and put links to them but I'm just heading off to work so google may be your friend until such time as I can find them...

2nd edit - actually, here's the first of them to get you started
http://www.independent.ie/sport/oth...hos-afraid-of-johannes-draaijer-30479202.html


----------



## raindog (27 Feb 2015)

about time, but what will happen to Nibs?


----------



## Joffey (27 Feb 2015)

Was thinking that myself - surely in his contract there will be something about this that would free him?


----------



## Crackle (27 Feb 2015)

Anyone know what happens if the license is withdrawn. Team folds or do they drop to a different level. Can they still get wildcard invites?


----------



## psmiffy (27 Feb 2015)

So they get demoted - assuming UCI has all their ducks in order for a change 

Appeal to CAS - goes on and on?

Get invited to the significant events anyway? 

It would be nice if they just disappeared - but that is not how it seems to work


----------



## totallyfixed (27 Feb 2015)

Poor Nibali, my heart bleeds, it must have been terrible for him having to race alongside all those drug cheats, but still, he tried to show them there is a better way by being the strongest and doing it clean yet still they persisted despite Vino telling them not to.
Me cynical? Never.


----------



## Berk on a Bike (27 Feb 2015)

As ever, inrng.com is all over it http://inrng.com/2015/02/astana-uci-world-tour-licence-withdrawal/


----------



## Joffey (27 Feb 2015)

Brilliant article that, so it looks like it's bye bye Astana and maybe for this season bye bye Nibs.


----------



## Arrowfoot (27 Feb 2015)

The drawing was on the wall long time ago. The issue was never Astana, it has been UCI.


----------



## deptfordmarmoset (27 Feb 2015)

psmiffy said:


> So they get demoted - assuming UCI has all their ducks in order for a change
> 
> Appeal to CAS - goes on and on?
> 
> ...


I got the impression that the UCI wanted to withhold Astana's licence last year but there must have been legal or procedural rules that prevented them simply dropping them.


----------



## Crackle (27 Feb 2015)

Berk on a Bike said:


> As ever, inrng.com is all over it http://inrng.com/2015/02/astana-uci-world-tour-licence-withdrawal/


Answers pretty much every question I had. I think we can expect this to go to appeal then.


----------



## Hont (27 Feb 2015)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> I got the impression that the UCI wanted to withhold Astana's licence last year but there must have been legal or procedural rules that prevented them simply dropping them.


Yeah, that was my take too.


----------



## Flying_Monkey (27 Feb 2015)

So, have the conspiracy theorists in the Clinic already started to claim that Cookson is banning Froome's competition? If not...


----------



## Crackle (27 Feb 2015)

Flying_Monkey said:


> So, have the conspiracy theorists in the Clinic already started to claim that Cookson is banning Froome's competition? If not...


I need a new tinfoil hat before I can go over and read to check.


----------



## smutchin (27 Feb 2015)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> I got the impression that the UCI wanted to withhold Astana's licence last year but there must have been legal or procedural rules that prevented them simply dropping them.



Haven't read the INRNG piece yet so this all may be covered there, but I would say that the noises Cookson has been making over the last few months with regard to this and other matters seem to suggest that he's gone about it in entirely the correct way, being extremely thorough and making sure the procedure is followed to the letter. Some have criticised him for not acting sooner but it's to his credit if he has made sure the case is absolutely watertight before making a final decision and statement (and thereby ensure we don't get a repeat of the Katusha debacle).


----------



## Stonechat (27 Feb 2015)

Apparently the licence commission could relegate the to pro conti status or refuse a licence all together

Just been reading Tyler Hamilton's book, quite an eye opener


----------



## smutchin (27 Feb 2015)

Just read the INRNG piece. Love the pic of 'Cookson the Terminator'.


----------



## tug benson (27 Feb 2015)

Flying_Monkey said:


> So, have the conspiracy theorists in the Clinic already started to claim that Cookson is banning Froome's competition? If not...


the nutters over there think this will be bad for cycling, sponsors will walk away and so on...that place of all places should be happy with todays news...but they are not.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (27 Feb 2015)

raindog said:


> about time, but what will happen to Nibs?



Share your thoughts here:
http://theraceradio.com/298/


----------



## raindog (27 Feb 2015)

I went with "_Random Italian team_"


----------



## rich p (27 Feb 2015)

It makes the tits who were criticising Cookson for not shooting from the hip look a bit stupid.
Not least, Armstrong and fat Pat.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (27 Feb 2015)

rich p said:


> It makes the tits who were criticising Cookson for not shooting from the hip look a bit stupid.
> Not least, Armstrong and fat Pat.


And me.


----------



## rich p (27 Feb 2015)

Marmion said:


> And me.


Well, that goes without saying!


----------



## SWSteve (27 Feb 2015)

So they'll be riding Omloop het Newsblad this weekend? It's only once the Licencing Commission decide to withdraw their licence they have to hang up their SRMs, right?


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (27 Feb 2015)

Just spotted that it's Astana's Press Officer's birthday today 

Happy Birthday fella...


----------



## Incontinentia Buttocks (27 Feb 2015)

Marmion said:


> Just spotted that it's Astana's Press Officer's birthday today
> 
> Happy Birthday fella...



Cue scouse accent," calm down calm down".


----------



## deptfordmarmoset (27 Feb 2015)

^^^^''See these fingers, they're now in the hands of our lawyers''


----------



## The Couch (28 Feb 2015)

Rumours that Van Avermaet is also being investigated in the Belgian "Ozon-doctor" case
(most likely because of the same baby-vitamin stuff that - potentially - Laurens Sweeck en Tom Meeusen were taking)


----------



## Arrowfoot (28 Feb 2015)

Cookson could have shown more leadership and courage rather than get others to do his work for him. Comments about following procedures etc are excuses. Whose procedures - KFC, NHS ??. Its well within UCI remit to put together procedures that serves the needs of Cycling especially after the string of doping cases.

Frankly most people expected Astana not to be given a licence. The reaction on the day it was announced was telling. Cookson himself said that it was the worst day of his life.

Instead of saying the Astana was on it last legs he could showed a bit of backbone by saying that he disagreed with the decision. Imagine Alexander Vinokourov stating that he was suspending Astana Continental Team after their 3rd dope case in Nov 14.The irony was priceless.


----------



## smutchin (28 Feb 2015)

Arrowfoot said:


> Cookson could have shown more leadership and courage rather than get others to do his work for him.



I think you'll find getting other people within an organisation to do their job is precisely what leaders do. 

Risible post.


----------



## rich p (28 Feb 2015)

smutchin said:


> I think you'll find getting other people within an organisation to do their job is precisely what leaders do.
> 
> Risible post.


Looks particularly trollish - we should avoid taking it seriously


----------



## 400bhp (28 Feb 2015)

rich p said:


> Looks particularly trollish - we should avoid taking it seriously



Not hard to avoid taking it seriously when it could have been written by a clown.


----------



## oldroadman (1 Mar 2015)

Arrowfoot said:


> Cookson could have shown more leadership and courage rather than get others to do his work for him. Comments about following procedures etc are excuses. Whose procedures - KFC, NHS ??. Its well within UCI remit to put together procedures that serves the needs of Cycling especially after the string of doping cases.
> 
> Frankly most people expected Astana not to be given a licence. The reaction on the day it was announced was telling. Cookson himself said that it was the worst day of his life.
> 
> Instead of saying the Astana was on it last legs he could showed a bit of backbone by saying that he disagreed with the decision. Imagine Alexander Vinokourov stating that he was suspending Astana Continental Team after their 3rd dope case in Nov 14.The irony was priceless.


Rarely has anyone been treated to a read of such uninformed and strange opinion, when the object of the scorn is doing things the right way to ensure that the conclusions from the CIRC stick. No shooting off at the mouth and zero action from Mr Cookson, as certain predecessors managed to do, and drag the sport down.


----------



## Arrowfoot (1 Mar 2015)

oldroadman said:


> Rarely has anyone been treated to a read of such uninformed and strange opinion, when the object of the scorn is doing things the right way to ensure that the conclusions from the CIRC stick. No shooting off at the mouth and zero action from Mr Cookson, as certain predecessors managed to do, and drag the sport down.



Cookson was to raise the profile of the Sport after what transpired and what eventuated is matter of pubic record. When Astana got its licence, note the public reaction. No amount of spinning can deflecting the disappointment especially so when the spectating public and much of cycling community were craving change and stronger action.


----------



## Apollonius (1 Mar 2015)

I can see where you are coming from, but Cookson has to work within the commercial framework of the sport. I suspect he has put about as much pressure as he can on the "colourful" Kazaks.

I just wish there were no riders I respect in their colours (Cataldo and Nibali, before anyone asks.)


----------



## Berk on a Bike (1 Mar 2015)

Astana are saying other teams should be audited too and the UCI's move is a ploy to discredit Astana http://vesti.kz/astana/201421/

[Chrome browser translation - apologies to any Kazakhs]



> President of the Cycling Federation of Kazakhstan *Darkhan Kaletayev* said that the attempt of the International Cycling Union (UCI) to deprive through Licensing Committee *"Astana"* Pro Tour license is biased and is organized action, reports sport.zakon.kz .
> 
> "Our team has fulfilled all the requirements that we put forward the International Cycling Union. In particular, the audit of the Lausanne University, he is biased and has a one-sided approach. By the way, we did it at his own expense. Now we are working on the legal side of the matter and requested information on how to carry out the audit of other teams.
> I do not want to accuse anyone, but what is happening with respect to our team, I see a campaign to discredit "Astana" and the removal from the peloton one of the leading teams that can win the main race Pro Tour-2015. See opposition from our competitors, and I believe that all of this is organized action against the Kazakh velogruppy. We will fight for the good name of "Astana", - said Kaletayev.
> ...


----------



## iLB (8 Mar 2015)

Nothing about Mr. Knaven?


----------



## Strathlubnaig (8 Mar 2015)

iLB said:


> Nothing about Mr. Knaven?


He works for Sky so no one comments.


----------



## Berk on a Bike (8 Mar 2015)

Statement from Team Sky http://www.teamsky.com/teamsky/home/article/27420#Goj9ypjob2YFQrBR.97


----------



## iLB (8 Mar 2015)




----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (8 Mar 2015)

I can see Mr Knaven having pressing family/personal matters requiring his undivided attention in the near future which lead to him no longer being able to fulfil his role at Team Sky.


----------



## StuAff (8 Mar 2015)

Me too. There is a clear contradiction there between what he said in '98 and now, and Sky's statement doesn't alter that.


----------



## Berk on a Bike (8 Mar 2015)

The CIRC report is here https://docs.google.com/viewerng/vi...page.com/actualite/2015-03-08-circ-report.pdf

If anyone reads it all let me know the best bits.


----------



## Berk on a Bike (9 Mar 2015)

Thank god for Race Radio's blog


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (9 Mar 2015)

"The days of 15 percent gains in performance through massive EPO doping seem to be a thing of the past, according to CIRC. Instead, riders are skirting the edges of the anti-doping system, taking advantage of Therapeutic Use Exemptions, using overnight gaps in testing and a deep understanding of the Biological Passport to micro-dose without getting caught. Some are taking drugs that aren’t yet banned, like Tramadol, and using pill regimens that dull pain or improve recovery.

Cycling’s doping days are not behind it."


Read more at http://velonews.competitor.com/2015...loton-still-doping_362399#mCD3BHMWCCy1QCsU.99


----------



## rich p (9 Mar 2015)

I'm not sure what I expected but I could probably have written most of that report myself last year


----------



## rich p (9 Mar 2015)

Strathlubnaig said:


> He works for Sky so no one comments.


What a strange post. Just because some on here follow and support the largely British riders doesn't mean we are blind to the team's faults. As has been obvious from the comments about such as Yates, Leinders, Barry in posts passim.
This is the second or third time recently that people have posted to say that nobody has posted on a topic. Why not post your views yourself rather than wait for somebody else.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (9 Mar 2015)

David Millar in the Telegraph: "I take my hat off to Chris Froome for taking the time to speak to CIRC and also waive his right to anonymity, but where are the others?"


----------



## Berk on a Bike (9 Mar 2015)

I have no source other than a tweet, but I read Millar was invited to give evidence to Cycling Is Really Clean but didn't. Does he admit as much in the article?


----------



## iLB (9 Mar 2015)

Berk on a Bike said:


> I have no source other than a tweet, but I read Millar was invited to give evidence to Cycling Is Really Clean but didn't. Does he admit as much in the article?



He says he regrets not talking, but also cites a long list of reasons why he couldn't possibly have made time to talk to them. Yet somehow Froome found time.


----------



## raindog (9 Mar 2015)

I wonder what Jalabert will have to say about this during today's Paris-Nice stage?
I feel embarrassed already.


----------



## Crackle (9 Mar 2015)

iLB said:


>


That looks quite damming. I'm still not sure if Sky's zero tolerance policy is wise or indeed just but they have it and Knaven looks a bit vulnerable if all that is true.


----------



## deptfordmarmoset (9 Mar 2015)

Guardian's reporting that Cookson has asked Heinous to stand down. http://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...ein-verbruggen-stand-down-uci-lance-armstrong. Or is there such a thing as a dishonourary president?


----------



## mjr (9 Mar 2015)

raindog said:


> I wonder what Jalabert will have to say about this during today's Paris-Nice stage?
> I feel embarrassed already.


I don't know but it'll be soporific like usual. Thank $DEITY that Eurosport is back live today.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (9 Mar 2015)

Lampre leave MPCC due to Ulissi case:
http://www.teamlampremerida.com/en/2015/03/comunicato-ufficiale-5/


----------



## raindog (10 Mar 2015)

as he's from Cognac, this was mentioned on our local FR3 news this evening
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/mar/10/lloyd-mondory-ag2r-mondiale-fails-test-epo
pretty disappointing stuff


----------



## smutchin (10 Mar 2015)

Strathlubnaig said:


> He works for Sky so no one comments.



Including you.


----------



## smutchin (10 Mar 2015)

raindog said:


> as he's from Cognac, this was mentioned on our local FR3 news this evening
> http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/mar/10/lloyd-mondory-ag2r-mondiale-fails-test-epo
> pretty disappointing stuff



AG2R again. They're worse than Astana.


----------



## raindog (10 Mar 2015)

the DS is pretty cut up
_"J’ai honte, j’ai honte, j’ai honte. Je crois que je ne suis plus capable de faire ce métier là, dans ces conditions. C’est trop dur. Trop de travail. Trop d’investissement de toute une vie. Le vélo c’est ma vie. Je ne peux plus, je ne peux plus. C’est un mélange de honte, de trahison, l’équipe va être salie, ce n’est pas juste. Il m’a appelé, il pleurait, mais ses explications ne me conviennent pas, je lui ai dit qu’il fallait dire la vérité, ne pas se réfugier derrière des excuses"._


----------



## smutchin (10 Mar 2015)

Crocodile tears. It's about time Lavenu took some responsibility for what his employees get up to.


----------



## themosquitoking (10 Mar 2015)

raindog said:


> the DS is pretty cut up
> _"J’ai honte, j’ai honte, j’ai honte. Je crois que je ne suis plus capable de faire ce métier là, dans ces conditions. C’est trop dur. Trop de travail. Trop d’investissement de toute une vie. Le vélo c’est ma vie. Je ne peux plus, je ne peux plus. C’est un mélange de honte, de trahison, l’équipe va être salie, ce n’est pas juste. Il m’a appelé, il pleurait, mais ses explications ne me conviennent pas, je lui ai dit qu’il fallait dire la vérité, ne pas se réfugier derrière des excuses"._


That's all Greek to me.


----------



## rich p (10 Mar 2015)

raindog said:


> as he's from Cognac, this was mentioned on our local FR3 news this evening
> http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/mar/10/lloyd-mondory-ag2r-mondiale-fails-test-epo
> pretty disappointing stuff


Indeed and Ag2R's third in 2 years.
Hmmm, almost Astana-like consistency


----------



## rich p (10 Mar 2015)

Whoops - TMN to Smutch!


----------



## Tin Pot (10 Mar 2015)

Of all the drugs that are illegal for racing, are any legal for non-racers?

I'd hate all the research into endurance boosting going to waste.


----------



## smutchin (10 Mar 2015)

Tin Pot said:


> Of all the drugs that are illegal for racing, are any legal for non-racers?



Only most of them. EPO, HGH, salbutamol, corticosteroids... - all have legitimate medical applications.


----------



## Tin Pot (10 Mar 2015)

smutchin said:


> Only most of them. EPO, HGH, salbutamol, corticosteroids... - all have legitimate medical applications.


Ah, but are they prescription only?

I mean is it legal (Plod won't kick my door in) for me to procure and ingest or whatever.


----------



## smutchin (10 Mar 2015)

Google "buy EPO online" and see how many results you get. I think it inhabits the same grey area as so-called "legal highs".


----------



## oldroadman (10 Mar 2015)

smutchin said:


> Google "buy EPO online" and see how many results you get. I think it inhabits the same grey area as so-called "legal highs".


Yes, plenty of_ evening primrose oil_ for sale online.


----------



## The Couch (10 Mar 2015)

themosquitoking said:


> That's all Greek to me.


Ντρέπομαι, ντρέπομαι, ντρέπομαι. Νομίζω ότι δεν είμαι πλέον σε θέση να κάνει αυτή τη δουλειά εδώ, σε αυτές τις συνθήκες. Είναι πάρα πολύ δύσκολο. Πάρα πολύ δουλειά. Πάρα πολύ από μια επένδυση ζωής. Το ποδήλατο είναι η ζωή μου. Δεν μπορώ, δεν μπορώ. Είναι ένα μείγμα από ντροπή, την προδοσία, η ομάδα θα είναι βρώμικο, δεν είναι δίκαιο. Κάλεσε, έκλαψε, αλλά εξηγήσεις του δεν μου ταιριάζει, του είπα ότι πρέπει να πούμε την αλήθεια, δεν κρύβονται πίσω από δικαιολογίες

Is this better?


----------



## mjr (10 Mar 2015)

themosquitoking said:


> That's all Greek to me.



In case that's no joke: "I'm ashamed, I'm ashamed, I'm ashamed. I believe I'm no more capable of doing that job, in these conditions. It's too hard. Too much work. Too much investment of a whole life. The bicycle is my life. I can't do more, I can't do more. It's a mix of shame, of treachery, the team's going to be dirtied, it's not fair. He called me, he cried, but his explanations don't suit me, I said to him that he should tell the truth, not take refuge behind some excuses." The punctuation's not great but I don't think it's great in French AFAIK.


----------



## themosquitoking (10 Mar 2015)

mjray said:


> In case that's no joke: "I'm ashamed, I'm ashamed, I'm ashamed. I believe I'm no more capable of doing that job, in these conditions. It's too hard. Too much work. Too much investment of a whole life. The bicycle is my life. I can't do more, I can't do more. It's a mix of shame, of treachery, the team's going to be dirtied, it's not fair. He called me, he cried, but his explanations don't suit me, I said to him that he should tell the truth, not take refuge behind some excuses." The punctuation's not great but I don't think it's great in French AFAIK.


It was an attempt at a joke but also i don't speak french either so cheers for that.


----------



## deptfordmarmoset (10 Mar 2015)

themosquitoking said:


> That's all Greek to me.


Genuine lack of French?

''I'm ashamed, ashamed, ashamed. I don't think I can continue to do this job under these conditions. It's just too difficult, There's too much work. Too much investment in it over the whole of my life. Cycling is my life. I can't take any more, I just can't take it. It's a mix of shame and betrayal; the team's name will be dirtied and that's not fair. He called me, he cried, but his explanations don't work with me. I told him that he had to tell the truth and not to hide behind excuses.''

Oh bugger, @mjray has just done it! Oh well, I'm going to hit send anyway!


----------



## mjr (10 Mar 2015)

No worries @deptfordmarmoset I'm a poor translator so you corrected a couple of bits where I was probably too literal.


----------



## ColinJ (11 Mar 2015)

Wow - it is 43 years since I did French at school and I was able to understand that, apart from a couple of words which were easy to guess in that context!

As for the doping ... pah! Catch the cheats, ban the cheats. Hopefully, the percentage of cheats will keep on going down so the remaining cheaters stand out and can be watched more closely.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (11 Mar 2015)

raindog said:


> the DS is pretty cut up
> _"J’ai honte, j’ai honte, j’ai honte. Je crois que je ne suis plus capable de faire ce métier là, dans ces conditions. C’est trop dur. Trop de travail. Trop d’investissement de toute une vie. Le vélo c’est ma vie. Je ne peux plus, je ne peux plus. C’est un mélange de honte, de trahison, l’équipe va être salie, ce n’est pas juste. Il m’a appelé, il pleurait, mais ses explications ne me conviennent pas, je lui ai dit qu’il fallait dire la vérité, ne pas se réfugier derrière des excuses"._



OK, my schoolboy French might be a bit rusty but, here goes...
"I'm hungry, I'm hungry, I'm hungry. I could do with a couple of pies and I'm fairly sure I would not turn down a cake for afters in these conditions. It would be lovely. It really would be. I could ride my bike afterwards, then more cake. I really am so hungry, really hungry, I have not eaten for days. But I have my appetite back now, doubly so than normal, I expect I'll probably order a takeaway for later as well, what they hell who needs an excuse."


----------



## HF2300 (13 Mar 2015)

UCI announces tougher anti-doping regime, including night time checks...

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/mar/13/uci-anti-doping-measures-lance-armstrong-cycling


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (23 Mar 2015)

Oleg seems to have taken a sudden dislike to Bjarne and suspended him

http://m.bt.dk/?redirect=www.bt.dk/cykling/cykelchok-bjarne-riis-smidt-af-holdet&


----------



## rich p (23 Mar 2015)

It's in foreign!


----------



## Crackle (23 Mar 2015)

Tinkov is a daffodil though.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (23 Mar 2015)

rich p said:


> It's in foreign!



Google translated it for me


----------



## Berk on a Bike (23 Mar 2015)

Cyclingtips has this http://cyclingtips.com.au/2015/03/r...ov-could-dane-be-on-his-way-out-of-the-sport/


----------



## Apollonius (23 Mar 2015)

That article strongly implies that Riis is in trouble for results more than doping. Not sure how much Tinkoff cares about riding clean. (I hope they do, of course...)


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (23 Mar 2015)

Apollonius said:


> That article strongly implies that Riis is in trouble for results more than doping. Not sure how much Tinkoff cares about riding clean. (I hope they do, of course...)



Maybe Oleg's just seen a pic of Riis wearing this fashion disaster?


----------



## Apollonius (23 Mar 2015)

Good grief!

Does he work for IKEA?


----------



## Berk on a Bike (23 Mar 2015)

I think that's a promo shot from when Riis presented the Danish version of Rainbow


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (23 Mar 2015)

I'd like to say it works better as a group thing, but it quite clearly does not


----------



## mjr (23 Mar 2015)

Marmion said:


> Maybe Oleg's just seen a pic of Riis wearing this fashion disaster?


Unlikely: have you seen what they've got Sagan wearing? :-(


----------



## rich p (23 Mar 2015)

Here's Bjarne's twin brother Mr Tumble


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (23 Mar 2015)

mjray said:


> Unlikely: have you seen what they've got Sagan wearing? :-(



I haven't. 

As bad as this?


----------



## mjr (24 Mar 2015)

Marmion said:


> I haven't.
> 
> As bad as this?
> View attachment 83529


Close. It's hard to find a photo which conveys the full "drawn with crayons" horror and it's worse with the standard team colour arm and leg warmers but



might give some idea. Doesn't show the postbox red and canary yellow (non-fluo!) bits on the helmet well though.


----------



## AndyRM (24 Mar 2015)

This does a 'good' job of it.


----------



## Berk on a Bike (24 Mar 2015)

A great write-up from The Inner Ring http://inrng.com/2015/03/oleg-tinkovs-dream-team-nightmare/


----------



## zimzum42 (24 Mar 2015)

Badly worded official statement:

http://www.tinkoffsaxo.com/news/tinkoff-saxo-statement-bjarne-riis/


----------



## Crackle (24 Mar 2015)

zimzum42 said:


> Badly worded official statement:
> 
> http://www.tinkoffsaxo.com/news/tinkoff-saxo-statement-bjarne-riis/


Badly worded might be the understatement of the thread.


----------



## rich p (24 Mar 2015)

Loved this comment under the statement! 

_#jesuisbjarne Oleg, you are the wallet of the team but Riis is the heart and Contador the legs_


----------



## zimzum42 (24 Mar 2015)

Maybe they can snap up Manolo Saiz, he's always been clean...


----------



## Berk on a Bike (24 Mar 2015)

Don't forget they've got Sean Yates and Steven de Jonghe waiting to step up if needed...


----------



## rich p (24 Mar 2015)

Maybe Oleg is going to copy Sky's squeaky clean policy and Bjarne is the first casualty.


----------



## Berk on a Bike (25 Mar 2015)

The founder of Saxo Bank has spoken out in support of Riis http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news...s-for-tinkov-to-resolve-riis-situation-163718


----------



## The Couch (30 Mar 2015)

Some more rumours on Astana:
A Dutch newspaper has reported that they will get their WorldTour license revoked and therefore will only be able to apply for a tier 3 license (Continental) as was told them by a senior official (Although the commission will only meet on April 2)
Astana will anyway use whatever legal appeals they have to defend their license


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (1 Apr 2015)

Stand easy chaps, stand easy. We have nothing to concern ourselves about with Astana and Kazakh cycling, they have it covered by a few generations of the same family on a day trip:





I particularly like the pink coolbag for the vials.
http://astanaproteam.kz/en/page/news/6403-kcf-winter-cycling-championships-anti-doping-controls/


----------



## Crackle (1 Apr 2015)

Is that kenny Dalglish on the right?


----------



## SWSteve (1 Apr 2015)

Crackle said:


> Is that kenny Dalglish on the right?




He looks just as happy as Dalglish


----------



## oldroadman (1 Apr 2015)

ItsSteveLovell said:


> He looks just as happy as Dalglish


Everyone's happy at Astana. Until the licence commission hearing.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (2 Apr 2015)

Do SKY do "due diligence"?
http://www.sportingintelligence.com...015-is-fostering-a-culture-of-secrecy-300301/


----------



## Apollonius (2 Apr 2015)

I think the article makes the point that Sky cannot sack Knaven unless he admits doping. There is no smoking gun, only a set of circumstantial evidence against him. Understandably, he remains silent. 

The article also makes the point that Sky's policy is too perfectionist. Vaughters' policy of "confess and move on" is preferred. All very reasonable points. I don't see how you could read it as anti-Sky, other than that. A very intelligent and thoughtful piece, I thought.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (2 Apr 2015)

Apollonius said:


> I don't see how you could read it as anti-Sky



I don't see how you can see I think it is anti-Sky


----------



## Bollo (2 Apr 2015)

Marmion said:


> Stand easy chaps, stand easy. We have nothing to concern ourselves about with Astana and Kazakh cycling, they have it covered by a few generations of the same family on a day trip:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They look like they're surrendering. Don't fall for it Brian, it's a trap!


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (2 Apr 2015)

La Gazzetta are reporting that Astana are to get a 2nd licence hearing in three weeks, in order to provide "more documents" - I wonder how many holiday snaps constitute "a document"


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (3 Apr 2015)

I'm not sure what Nibali is "on" but he's definitely on something if he thinks that Astana is "a symbol of clean and honest sport" 
http://velonews.competitor.com/2015...n-and-honest-sport_365363#k687uMQTj8chf4RW.99


----------



## Crackle (3 Apr 2015)

Marmion said:


> I'm not sure what Nibali is "on" but he's definitely on something if he thinks that Astana is "a symbol of clean and honest sport"
> http://velonews.competitor.com/2015...n-and-honest-sport_365363#k687uMQTj8chf4RW.99


He's on tenterhooks about his future, is what.


----------



## rich p (3 Apr 2015)

Marmion said:


> I'm not sure what Nibali is "on" but he's definitely on something if he thinks that Astana is "a symbol of clean and honest sport"
> http://velonews.competitor.com/2015/04/news/nibali-astana-is-a-symbol-of-clean-and-honest-sport_365363#k687uMQTj8chf4RW.99


Aren't you supposed to be on a plane?


----------



## psmiffy (3 Apr 2015)

rich p said:


> Aren't you supposed to be on a plane?



He is - it is just a much lower plane than everyone else


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (3 Apr 2015)

rich p said:


> Aren't you supposed to be on a plane?



6am flight tomorrow. Arriving Brussels 8.50am. I'm guessing I'll be in Gent for opening time


----------



## HF2300 (4 Apr 2015)

Comment from Carsten Jeppesen about the Flanders spec Dogma:

“We’re trying to do things the right way. Ten or 15 years ago, it was all about which teams had the best doctors.”

Meanwhile, back at the doper formerly known as nobber...

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/bl...mstrong-geoff-thomas-tour-de-france-leukaemia


----------



## Apollonius (4 Apr 2015)

HF2300 said:


> Comment from Carsten Jeppesen about the Flanders spec Dogma:
> 
> “We’re trying to do things the right way. Ten or 15 years ago, it was all about which teams had the best doctors.”
> 
> .


Now that is a provocative (and pretty bold) statement


----------



## rich p (4 Apr 2015)

Apollonius said:


> Now that is a provocative (and pretty bold) statement


Hardly controversial though, is it?


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (9 Apr 2015)

On-going court messiness involving Landis, Armstrong, Stapleton, Knaggs
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...-bill-stapleton-barton-knaggs-judge/25534877/


----------



## The Couch (10 Apr 2015)

Meeusen (the cyclo-crosser) has appeared for the investigative court.
The verdict is expected by 28th April.

There are 2 parts to it:

Using doping practices (possesion and use of forbidden products and/or possesion and use of forbidden practices)
The use of Vaminolact (an amino-acids solution based on breastmilk composition) potentially combined with cortisones and adrenaline
Meeusen hasn't been actually "busted" with illegal substances in his blood/urine, so the prosecutor's evidence will be purely on mail-traffic, doctor calendar entries, raid foundings and Meeusen own's statements.

By the way, this is linked in with the same ("UV"-)doctor that was treating Van Avermaet and Wellens (another cyclo-crosser).


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (11 Apr 2015)

Rebellin facing jail sentences for doping and tax evasion:
http://www.ilgazzettino.it/NORDEST/...evasione_fiscale_doping/notizie/1288390.shtml


----------



## User169 (16 Apr 2015)

From CyclingNews: _"The Belgian Cycling Federation anti-doping procurer has requested that Greg Van Avermaet be banned for two years and fined 262.500 Euro for his links to Dr. Chris Mertens and suspicions of doping."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bel...sts-two-year-doping-ban-for-greg-van-avermaet_


----------



## thom (16 Apr 2015)

Wowsers


----------



## Crackle (16 Apr 2015)

That's a hefty fine for Van Avermaet.


----------



## Flying_Monkey (16 Apr 2015)

And he still couldn't win in a sprint... I'd be asking for a refund from the good doctor!


----------



## oldroadman (16 Apr 2015)

Marmion said:


> Rebellin facing jail sentences for doping and tax evasion:
> http://www.ilgazzettino.it/NORDEST/...evasione_fiscale_doping/notizie/1288390.shtml


That will go on for years the way the Italian legal system works. Mostly in favour of ageing politicians with a taste for young "nieces"!


----------



## deptfordmarmoset (16 Apr 2015)

Every time this thread pops up on the What's new page I get a sinking feeling. So, as a light diversion, I wonder how these tyres roll - http://road.cc/content/news/148369-dope-pedallers-nabbed-smuggling-marijuana-bike-tyres


----------



## rich p (16 Apr 2015)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> Every time this thread pops up on the What's new page I get a sinking feeling. So, as a light diversion, I wonder how these tyres roll - http://road.cc/content/news/148369-dope-pedallers-nabbed-smuggling-marijuana-bike-tyres


Great pun value !


----------



## oldroadman (16 Apr 2015)

They roll fine but you need to eat a lot more.....


----------



## StuAff (16 Apr 2015)

Are they smoking fast?


----------



## deptfordmarmoset (16 Apr 2015)

StuAff said:


> Are they smoking fast?


Maybe, but evidently they weren't rolling fast enough.


----------



## Hont (17 Apr 2015)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> Every time this thread pops up on the What's new page I get a sinking feeling. So, as a light diversion, I wonder how these tyres roll - http://road.cc/content/news/148369-dope-pedallers-nabbed-smuggling-marijuana-bike-tyres


They're much better off-road apparently, as they're particularly suited to grass and weed.

I'll get me coat.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (20 Apr 2015)

Hein Verbruggen's letter to UCI Management C'ttee; Cookson seems to have irked him somewhat:
http://www.demorgen.be/sport/integraal-de-brief-van-hein-verbruggen-a2292137/


----------



## HF2300 (20 Apr 2015)

What a poorly written, poorly argued, self-centred, unprofessional and irrational letter. Confirms everything I thought about Heinous.

Edit - it did occur to me this might be a spoof, but then I'm not sure whether a spoofer would be so rambling and incoherent.


----------



## rich p (20 Apr 2015)

Marmion said:


> Hein Verbruggen's letter to UCI Management C'ttee; Cookson seems to have irked him somewhat:
> http://www.demorgen.be/sport/integraal-de-brief-van-hein-verbruggen-a2292137/


Bleedin' hell, what load of incoherent, rambling cock. Why he doesn't just disappear into retirement and stop making a tit of himself only he knows.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (20 Apr 2015)

Astana licence decision due soon:
http://velonews.competitor.com/2015/04/news/astana-license-decision-expected-in-days_367323


----------



## oldroadman (20 Apr 2015)

Sport better off without HV. Now a bitter old fellow. Best consigned to history. Honorary maybe he still is (for the moment), honourable is another matter. When all that's left is attacking a man who is being as open as he can and wants to clean things up to a point where other sports have to start looking at how things are done, then it's a sad day. In summary, your era is over Hein, just go quietly into the gentle evening of retirement, and be grateful that you covered your tracks quite well.


----------



## HF2300 (21 Apr 2015)

Have to say, if that letter is a reflection of Heinous & Fat Pat's time in office, you've got to wonder how much of the pre-Cookson years was cock-up rather than conspiracy. He doesn't exactly come across as an efficient and effective manager...


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (23 Apr 2015)

Astana keep their licence, to be kept under observation*:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/astana-to-keep-worldtour-licence


*probably only until Nibali moves to another team 

edit - UCI press release:
http://www.uci.ch/pressreleases/decision-the-licence-commission-the-astana-pro-team-case/


----------



## Stonechat (23 Apr 2015)

Marmion said:


> Astana keep their licence, to be kept under observation*:
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/astana-to-keep-worldtour-licence
> 
> 
> ...


Unbelievable


----------



## HF2300 (23 Apr 2015)

Marmion said:


> ...UCI press release:
> http://www.uci.ch/pressreleases/decision-the-licence-commission-the-astana-pro-team-case/



So what they're saying is, we haven't actually made a decision yet but Astana are on probation. Unbelievable perhaps, but predictable.


----------



## jifdave (23 Apr 2015)

HF2300 said:


> So what they're saying is, we haven't actually made a decision yet but Astana are on probation. Unbelievable perhaps, but predictable.


I believe it will be announced in a few days that Aru has a dodgy bio passport and isn't 'sick' as has been reported. 

Another potential Astana doping case


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (23 Apr 2015)

jifdave said:


> I believe it will be announced in a few days that Aru has a dodgy bio passport and isn't 'sick' as has been reported.
> 
> Another potential Astana doping case



Greg Henderson certainly seems to know something in twitterland...
"Sad to see @*fabaro1* "sick". Mate make sure next time u come back to our sport "healthy". Aka. Clean! #*biopassport*! Or don't come back!"


----------



## smutchin (24 Apr 2015)

If that's true it's hard to see how Astana could possibly keep their licence. 

Maybe it's only the legal wranglings that are saving them - Fuglsang threatening to sue the UCI etc. I suppose they'd have to be on very firm legal ground before taking away a team's licence, especially mid-season.


----------



## Keith Oates (24 Apr 2015)

I've just waded through Verbruggen's letter and it shows what an absolute 'prawn' he was and still is. The best thing is for all Cycling people and publications to agree not to mention him again in the future.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Berk on a Bike (24 Apr 2015)

Marmion said:


> Greg Henderson certainly seems to know something in twitterland...
> "Sad to see @*fabaro1* "sick". Mate make sure next time u come back to our sport "healthy". Aka. Clean! #*biopassport*! Or don't come back!"


It's a shame Henderson got Aru's twitter handle wrong...


----------



## Berk on a Bike (24 Apr 2015)

In other news, Jonathan Tiernan-Locke rears his head. His ban ends in December and he claims to have had interest from UK teams, but doesn't expect a world tour team to call him any time soon.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tiernan-locke-its-hard-to-see-a-worldtour-team-touching-me


----------



## The Couch (24 Apr 2015)

Marmion said:


> Astana keep their licence, to be kept under observation*:


I was really expecting a stronger signal to be honest. Since they took their time having this (independantly) investigated and in combination with the pretty harsh/strong comments that Cookson was giving lately towards cheating in general and Astana in particular. 
(and maybe since many people here had also made the comment that the UCI was making sure to have a strong case before they would strike the hammer down)

Still... if this Aru thing is right, UCI should have enough, right? 
Astana couldn't even use the "it's the nobodies and has-beens that are being caught", since Aru was their 2nd best rider last year


----------



## psmiffy (24 Apr 2015)

Have the UCI been having under the table chats with CAS people? - If CAS had ruled against them it would of been very embarrassing - to the point of why even bother involving the UCI in issuing licences in the first place


----------



## jifdave (24 Apr 2015)

Ooh new tweet from Henderson. 

https://twitter.com/greghenderson1/status/591511718712324096

When you are sick. You are sick. Jumping to conclusions helps nobody. My mistake @FabioAru1. I should shut my mouth. Sincere apologies.


----------



## rich p (24 Apr 2015)

Stranger and stranger. Was he leaned on or pîssed?


----------



## smutchin (24 Apr 2015)

Found a horse's head in his bed this morning, I expect.


----------



## The Couch (24 Apr 2015)

smutchin said:


> Found a horse's head in his bed this morning, I expect.


"Vino" does sound pretty Italian doesn't it?


----------



## HF2300 (24 Apr 2015)

The Couch said:


> I was really expecting a stronger signal to be honest. Since they took their time having this (independantly) investigated and in combination with the pretty harsh/strong comments that Cookson was giving lately towards cheating in general and Astana in particular.





psmiffy said:


> Have the UCI been having under the table chats with CAS people? - If CAS had ruled against them it would of been very embarrassing - to the point of why even bother involving the UCI in issuing licences in the first place



I think part of the problem might be that the Licencing Commission is, as I understand it, independent of the UCI. I'm not an expert at reading between the lines of these decisions, but what little they've said really does read as though they've wimped out of a definitive decision one way or the other, or passed the buck back to ISSUL:



UCI Press Release said:


> ... *ISSUL were asked to propose special measures which the Team will be obliged to put in place *... *The team committed to respecting all the measures recommended by ISSUL *... *the Licence Commission announced the suspension of the proceedings* ... *The Licence Commission shall be able to re-open the proceedings*.



I'm not sure I can see the UCI would have influenced the Licencing Commission to keep Astana's licence, given they were pressing them heavily to withdraw it and presumably had looked into the legal / CAS implications before doing so.

It might be that external pressure made a difference, or maybe the Licencing Commission felt they couldn't withdraw the licence. The Licencing Commission had already given Astana time to prepare a case, so they obviously didn't think the ISSUL report was an immediate killer blow; they will have been well aware of what happened with Katusha; and Astana may have gone in with some procedural arguments, for example saying that the licence couldn't be withdrawn as a licence can't be issued provisionally in the first place. It might also be that, given the spectre of the CAS they were well aware of due process and sticking to the letter of the regulations, and felt the politically best option was to keep Astana under scrutiny, put the evil day off and make it ISSUL's problem again.


----------



## psmiffy (24 Apr 2015)

HF2300 said:


> I think part of the problem might be that the Licencing Commission is, as I understand it, independent of the UCI.




That says they are not independent and are part of the UCI -chaired by a management committee member - makes you wonder who is steering the ship in light of the noises that were being made before


----------



## oldroadman (24 Apr 2015)

No-one who was not in the room at the hearing will know what was stated and what went on, or what implications were thrown about. Astana are government backed, there is plenty of resource for taking a case to CAS, and the whole thing would drag on and on and on. Then maybe after TdF the case might get heard, when the result would not be so much of a problem. Not that I'm an ancient old ex-rider with cynical views, of course. I'm inclined to be sympathetic to UCI and Mr Cookson, they have set up properly independent commissions and have to live with their decisions, even when they clearly don't care for them. Which is more than would have happened under the previous regimes.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (24 Apr 2015)

jifdave said:


> Ooh new tweet from Henderson.
> 
> https://twitter.com/greghenderson1/status/591511718712324096
> 
> When you are sick. You are sick. Jumping to conclusions helps nobody. My mistake @FabioAru1. I should shut my mouth. Sincere apologies.



And Aru now looking at legal action against Henderson:
http://velonews.competitor.com/2015/04/news/aru-to-pursue-legal-action-over-henderson-tweets_367770


----------



## The Couch (28 Apr 2015)

The Couch said:


> Meeusen (the cyclo-crosser) has appeared for the investigative court.
> The verdict is expected by 28th April.
> 
> There are 2 parts to it:
> ...


Meeusen was acquitted today
The indirect evidence was sold as very flimsy by the defense and the court apparently agreed to this.

(With this as precedent, can't see Van Avermaet getting another result)


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (28 Apr 2015)

Another one caught - Roberto Javier has been provisionally suspended after doping positive (nandrolone) from a sample taken at Vuelta Republica Dominica on 23.02.15


----------



## rich p (28 Apr 2015)

Marmion said:


> Another one caught - Roberto Javier has been provisionally suspended after doping positive (nandrolone) from a sample taken at Vuelta Republica Dominica on 23.02.15


Have they got Rebellin yet?


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (28 Apr 2015)

rich p said:


> Have they got Rebellin yet?



Even the organisers of the Giro, known for their celebration of known dopers, don't want him at their race:
http://velonews.competitor.com/2015/04/news/rebellin-will-not-race-the-giro-ditalia_368204


----------



## HF2300 (29 Apr 2015)

Comment from INRNG about Valverde's 2006 LBL win - I don't suppose they were trying to suggest something about his 2015?



The Inner Ring said:


> Valverde now has three wins to his name here and 2015 wasn’t that far off his 2006 win when he came off a win in the Flèche Wallonne and then sat tight ... before he won the sprint from a group packed with fellow clients of Dr Fuentes.


----------



## Flying_Monkey (29 Apr 2015)

The UCI is introducing heavier penalties for 'motorised doping' as the Gazetta reports over 1000 such devices sold last year. For something that many people here were laughing at when it was first mooted a few years ago, the UCI seem to be taking this very seriously... 

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-introduces-new-sanctions-against-motorised-doping


----------



## jifdave (4 May 2015)

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/fre...micro-dosing-can-beat-uci-biological-passport

Sad sad news


----------



## smutchin (4 May 2015)

Is it really news? I'm sure it's been known for a long time that the bio passport is less than perfect, that it doesn't make getting away with doping impossible, just a lot more difficult.

And if it is possible to beat the passport, that just goes to prove that those who are caught by it are even more stupid than we realised.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (4 May 2015)

Not going to dispute that the bio passport is not full-proof, but would such a short trial show that the bio passport does not work? Surely the bio passport is about long term analysis of any changes?


----------



## psmiffy (4 May 2015)

smutchin said:


> Is it really news? I'm sure it's been known for a long time that the bio passport is less than perfect, that it doesn't make getting away with doping impossible, just a lot more difficult.
> 
> And if it is possible to beat the passport, that just goes to prove that those who are caught by it are even more stupid than we realised.



Not exactly as Mr @smutchin points out a radical expose.



> As part of a study carried out by Pierre Sallet of the Athletes for Transparency organisation with the blessing of the World Anti-Doping Agency, eight athletes were doped under supervision for a period of 29 days.



But goes to show that the anti-dopers are beavering away behind the scenes to try to assess and plug the gaps in the Biological Passport Scheme - which is as @Marmion stated is in an obvious sort of way is a long term way of attacking the problem



Marmion said:


> Not going to dispute that the bio passport is not full-proof, but would such a short trial show that the bio passport does not work? Surely the bio passport is about long term analysis of any changes?



I think the point of the TV France thing is that - yes - significant physical benefits can be had in the short term and don't show up in the blood work immediately - be interesting to see though if micro dosing shows up as an anomaly in the blood work in the long term - Maybe all race organisers should have a disclaimer that all results are provisional for two years


----------



## raindog (5 May 2015)




----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (5 May 2015)

Jimmi Briceno gets a 2 year ban (eventually) after positive for EPO in 2014's Vuelta al Táchira
http://www.uci.ch/mm/Document/News/CleanSport/16/82/04/20150505SanctionsADRVEN2.0_English.pdf


----------



## HF2300 (5 May 2015)

...and starting now, not from the ADRV date.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (5 May 2015)

The UCI publishes the Licence Commission’s reasoned decision concerning Astana: Licence Commission says if they'd known about internal problems relating to management culture, staff qualifications, and poor rider support at Astana in August 2014 it's likely team wouldn't have got licence for 2015...but it would have been disproportionate to remove licence once granted
http://www.uci.ch/pressreleases/the...reasoned-decision-concerning-astana-pro-team/


----------



## StuAff (5 May 2015)

psmiffy said:


> Not exactly as Mr @smutchin points out a radical expose.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


^This. The ABP scheme has big holes in it, though no-one pretends it's The Answer to doping, it's part of the answer (and unfortunately, dopers will always take advantage of any and all loopholes). There is already a review underway of the scheme following the Independent Reform Commission's report, which recommended multiple changes, including night-time testing. Micro-dosing is a problem that they'll seek to address.


----------



## SWSteve (5 May 2015)

Marmion said:


> The UCI publishes the Licence Commission’s reasoned decision concerning Astana: Licence Commission says if they'd known about internal problems relating to management culture, staff qualifications, and poor rider support at Astana in August 2014 it's likely team wouldn't have got licence for 2015...but it would have been disproportionate to remove licence once granted
> http://www.uci.ch/pressreleases/the...reasoned-decision-concerning-astana-pro-team/




That would imply no licence for 2016, but let's wait and see


----------



## The Couch (7 May 2015)

The Couch said:


> Meeusen was acquitted today
> The indirect evidence was sold as very flimsy by the defense and the court apparently agreed to this.
> 
> (With this as precedent, can't see Van Avermaet getting another result)


And what was to be expected has happened, Van Avermaet has been found not guilty. The commission decided there was no evidence


----------



## rich p (7 May 2015)

The Couch said:


> And what was to be expected has happened, Van Avermaet has been found not guilty. The commission decided there was no evidence


It doesn't add up to me though. He visits a dodgy doctor.
Allegedly , he's prescribed Vaminolact, but doesn't use it. The Basso/Puerto defence, or maybe the Clinton/didn't inhale.
Vaminolact is a nutrient for children and only used by adults as a masking agent.
It'll be interesting to see if WADA appeal.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (15 May 2015)

Luke Rowe says that dopers deserve no respect in a publication which constantly gives dopers lots of respect
http://rouleur.cc/journal/riders/lu...nterview)&mc_cid=82821cf27c&mc_eid=20f4d5a356


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (31 May 2015)

Research suggests that "the performance benefits of doping could remain latent for decades, and could be activated whenever the athlete resumes training." Potential for lifetime bans?
http://www.outsideonline.com/198217...=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=tweet


----------



## Crackle (1 Jun 2015)

Marmion said:


> Research suggests that "the performance benefits of doping could remain latent for decades, and could be activated whenever the athlete resumes training." Potential for lifetime bans?
> http://www.outsideonline.com/198217...=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=tweet


That's a fairly dodgy article, hard to give it any credence.


----------



## Flying_Monkey (1 Jun 2015)

Crackle said:


> That's a fairly dodgy article, hard to give it any credence.



Why do you think it's dodgy? It's a pretty good description of a complicated research process. And the researcher in question has a long and distinguished record of solid research in exercise physiology.


----------



## Crackle (1 Jun 2015)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Why do you think it's dodgy? It's a pretty good description of a complicated research process. And the researcher in question has a long and distinguished record of solid research in exercise physiology.


Dodgy is perhaps the wrong word but it's pure supposition based on preliminary findings. This is a study in mice, there's nothing yet to say it'll transfer to humans. I admit it reads better 2nd time than it did the first time.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (4 Jun 2015)

Less than a week to go until Kreuziger and the Bio-Passport go on "trial"
http://velonews.competitor.com/2015...man-kreuziger-is-a-man-at-a-crossroads_372583


----------



## Crackle (4 Jun 2015)

I know this was on the program last night but here's the article as well

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-32983932

Shocking really to see how effective micro-dosing still is.


----------



## Flying_Monkey (4 Jun 2015)

Bardiani-CSF quits the MPCC over its media management of their recent low cortisol report...

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bardianicsf-quits-the-mouvement-pour-un-cyclisme-crdible


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (5 Jun 2015)

Marmion said:


> Less than a week to go until Kreuziger and the Bio-Passport go on "trial"
> http://velonews.competitor.com/2015...man-kreuziger-is-a-man-at-a-crossroads_372583



And the verdict?
http://www.uci.ch/pressreleases/uci-and-wada-terminate-cas-case-concerning-roman-kreuziger/


----------



## Crackle (5 Jun 2015)

Marmion said:


> And the verdict?
> http://www.uci.ch/pressreleases/uci-and-wada-terminate-cas-case-concerning-roman-kreuziger/


Not enough rope but they know he rustled the cattle.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (5 Jun 2015)

Anyone able to decipher if this tells us anything of note? Is over 6 W/kg possible/credible? (stage 8 for Landa)


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (5 Jun 2015)

Crackle said:


> Not enough rope but they know he rustled the cattle.



From an article I linked to earlier:
"During the final 10 days of the 2012 Giro d’Italia, Kreuziger’s hematocrit rose from 43.2 to 48.1, finishing higher than his pre-Giro value of 45.1 — an anomaly, as most athletes see a decrease of hematocrit/hemoglobin “after physical effort of sufficient duration and intensity due to plasma volume expansion,” as the UCI attests; i.e., during the final 10 days of a grand tour.

A rise in hemoglobin and a drop in reticulocytes, or immature blood cells, can be indicative of blood transfusions, as the body shuts down creation of its own red blood cells. A higher than expected hematocrit and elevated reticulocyte percentage can also be indicative of the use of EPO to artificially stimulate production of red blood cells.

Kreuziger argues that he has never exceeded the limit values in his biological passport; part of his defense is that his elevated reticulocyte level is due to the prescription drug L-Thyroxine, which he takes for hypothyroidism. He has never tested positive for doping."

And seen near to Kreuziger's house


----------



## Crackle (5 Jun 2015)

You need the times with the climbs but I saw it somewhere else and the explanation was, credible. The thing about Landa was, what would he have done if he hadn't been held back for one reason or another. 

Acceptable power is all a bit variable but I've seen it quoted as 6.2ish acceptable for 20 minutes dropping for longer climbs but it depends where the climb comes and what the conditions are like. Pantani did Ventoux at 6.4 for 46 minutes as a for instance. Froome did ax3-Domaines at 6.2-6.4 for 23 minutes, as another.


----------



## HF2300 (5 Jun 2015)

Marmion said:


> Anyone able to decipher if this tells us anything of note? Is over 6 W/kg possible/credible? (stage 8 for Landa)



Probably depends if you think a hard limit on performance works when witchfinding, which many don't.

If you do, Froome on Ax-3-Domaines on the TdF was calculated to have put out 6.4 W/Kg equivalent which was said by Vayer to be 'not human'. Ferrari's benchmark for Armstrong being in Tour form was 6.7 W/Kg.

It's by no means an exact science though, lot of opportunities for error in the calculations.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (5 Jun 2015)

I'll go back to paying no heed to numbers and relying on my fine-tuned and infallible witch finder senses


----------



## Flying_Monkey (5 Jun 2015)

Marmion said:


> Kreuziger argues that he has never exceeded the limit values in his biological passport; part of his defense is that his elevated reticulocyte level is due to the prescription drug L-Thyroxine, which he takes for hypothyroidism. He has never tested positive for doping."



Ah, hypothyroidism, the same 'condition' that so many of Salazar's trainees at the Oregon Project seem to have...


----------



## HF2300 (5 Jun 2015)

Sorry Crax, cross-post. I was distracted by food at the time, m'lud


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (5 Jun 2015)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Ah, hypothyroidism, the same 'condition' that so many of Salazar's trainees at the Oregon Project seem to have...



It does seem to be quite prevalent in pro athletes. Who'd have thunked it, eh?


----------



## smutchin (5 Jun 2015)

It's truly astonishing how many top athletes have thyroid problems these days. With that and the asthma, it's amazing they can ride a bike fast at all.


----------



## HF2300 (5 Jun 2015)

Well, I think it's very caring of Salazar and Nike to set up a project to cater for all these sick athletes. Thyroid problems and asthma aren't 'glamour' illnesses, and it's nice that someone's worrying about them.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (9 Jun 2015)

The Secret Pro on the Giro:
"There were days when you’d just despair. I know myself, my teammates and many of the guys in the peloton aren’t crap riders — we’d trained, eaten and prepared for the race 100%; we’d had the best form it’s humanly possible to achieve. And then we came up against guys who simply took the piss.

The general consensus in the peloton was that you may as well have just finished the stage in the bunch because no matter what you did, it wasn’t going to make an ounce of difference on the GC or even on the stage. It wasn’t just frustrating, it was bloody insulting.

When guys who, last season — or even earlier this season — were in your group or at your level take off up the road or put out that extra 30-40 watts? They may as well be laughing in your face."
http://cyclingtips.com.au/2015/06/the-secret-pro-on-the-giro-there-were-days-when-youd-just-despair/


----------



## rich p (9 Jun 2015)

Marmion said:


> The Secret Pro on the Giro:
> "There were days when you’d just despair. I know myself, my teammates and many of the guys in the peloton aren’t crap riders — we’d trained, eaten and prepared for the race 100%; we’d had the best form it’s humanly possible to achieve. And then we came up against guys who simply took the piss.
> 
> The general consensus in the peloton was that you may as well have just finished the stage in the bunch because no matter what you did, it wasn’t going to make an ounce of difference on the GC or even on the stage. It wasn’t just frustrating, it was bloody insulting.
> ...


The interesting bit is the feeling in the peloton re the Giro and Astana.
He says it would make sense for his sponsor to do the ToCal next year. It's usually thought that he's an Antipodean rider, Gerrans or Henderson, maybe but would it benefit an Australian mining explosives company to do the US tour? Or even less a Lotto rider.


----------



## Crackle (9 Jun 2015)

Marmion said:


> The Secret Pro on the Giro:
> "There were days when you’d just despair. I know myself, my teammates and many of the guys in the peloton aren’t crap riders — we’d trained, eaten and prepared for the race 100%; we’d had the best form it’s humanly possible to achieve. And then we came up against guys who simply took the piss.
> 
> The general consensus in the peloton was that you may as well have just finished the stage in the bunch because no matter what you did, it wasn’t going to make an ounce of difference on the GC or even on the stage. It wasn’t just frustrating, it was bloody insulting.
> ...


Pretty much confirms all our suspicions about that race.


----------



## smutchin (9 Jun 2015)

rich p said:


> The interesting bit is the feeling in the peloton re the Giro and Astana.
> He says it would make sense for his sponsor to do the ToCal next year. It's usually thought that he's an Antipodean rider, Gerrans or Henderson, maybe but would it benefit an Australian mining explosives company to do the US tour? Or even less a Lotto rider.



I've seen it suggested that it's Bert De Backer, which would make sense - the caffeine shampoo market is largely untapped in the US.


----------



## User169 (9 Jun 2015)

Two new ones on the UCI list...

Ramon Carretero (Southeast) - EPO
Petr Ignatenko (RusVelo) - HGH


----------



## smutchin (9 Jun 2015)

Delftse Post said:


> Ramon Carretero (Southeast) - EPO



FFS. Proof, if it were needed, that changing your headline sponsor every damn season doesn't really do much to change team culture... 

https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/giro-ditalia-2015-spoilers.179153/post-3715009

Surely they've got to lose their licence now?


----------



## User169 (9 Jun 2015)

smutchin said:


> FFS. Proof, if it were needed, that changing your headline sponsor every damn season doesn't really do much to change team culture...
> 
> https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/giro-ditalia-2015-spoilers.179153/post-3715009
> 
> Surely they've got to lose their licence now?



If nothing else, it shows they're too stupid to warrant a license.


----------



## rich p (9 Jun 2015)

Delftse Post said:


> If nothing else, it shows they're too stupid to warrant a license.


Was it Tyler Hamilton who said that failing a dope test was actually failing an IQ test?


----------



## Stonechat (9 Jun 2015)

rich p said:


> Was it Tyler Hamilton who said that failing a dope test was actually failing an IQ test?


I have got his book
He almost implied that it could happen, and there was a fiasco with the blood doping


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (11 Jun 2015)

Shed a tear for Saint Lance of Financial Ruin
http://velonews.competitor.com/2015/06/news/armstrong-i-risk-ruin-in-landis-lawsuit_373424


----------



## Red17 (11 Jun 2015)

4 pages on Armstrong in today's Times sport section as well. Not a single word on the Dauphine though.


----------



## qigong chimp (11 Jun 2015)

Armstrong in today's Guardian on the 'charity ride' Cookson has urged him not to follow through with:



> "“People think I have this bitter relationship with the country, with its people,” he said. “I like going there. I love France … I could be wrong, I’ve been wrong plenty in my life, but I’ve been to France since all this happened and if you walk into a cafe or a restaurant or walk down the street that [negativity] is not the reaction I get. *God forbid the reaction is positive. What happens then?*”



Well then you get a retrospective Therapeutic Use Exemption certificate mocked up by some bent quack, no?


----------



## Hont (11 Jun 2015)

rich p said:


> Was it Tyler Hamilton who said that failing a dope test was actually failing an IQ test?


He must have a pretty low IQ then. Didn't he fail two?


----------



## rich p (11 Jun 2015)

Hont said:


> He must have a pretty low IQ then. Didn't he fail two?


Maybe it wasn't him who said it!


----------



## Crackle (11 Jun 2015)

In case anyone was feeling any sympathy for Armstrong after the tone of his latest interviews, William Fotheringham has a quick and accurate, summary.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2015/jun/11/lance-armstrong-interviews-deconstructed


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (11 Jun 2015)

rich p said:


> Maybe it wasn't him who said it!


His twin?


----------



## ColinJ (11 Jun 2015)

Marmion said:


> His twin?


Nah, he vanished before he learned to speak!


----------



## Bollo (11 Jun 2015)

Marmion said:


> His twin?





ColinJ said:


> Nah, he vanished before he learned to speak!


Might be useful for a cheeky semi-auto-transfusion.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (14 Jun 2015)

Mention of Armstrong sure brings out the best in Kimmage 
http://www.independent.ie/sport/oth...rmstrong-or-see-him-as-a-victim-31300481.html


----------



## rich p (14 Jun 2015)

Does he get paid to write this stuff?


----------



## HF2300 (17 Jun 2015)

Should the MPCC be rendered redundant?

http://inrng.com/2015/06/abolish-the-mpcc/#more-25296


----------



## rich p (17 Jun 2015)

Hein fights back
http://www.verbruggen.ch/


----------



## HF2300 (17 Jun 2015)

rich p said:


> Hein fights back
> http://www.verbruggen.ch/



Started reading it, couldn't be arsed.


----------



## Crackle (17 Jun 2015)

HF2300 said:


> Started reading it, couldn't be arsed.


Which was actually further than I got.


----------



## The Couch (18 Jun 2015)

Nowadays, everybody's seems to want to write something...

Bruyneel has been telling that he is writing a book, in which "_he will be able to tell his side of the story_".
In this way, he doesn't need to "_do interview after interview, which can lead to quotes be taken out of context_".
He hopes that "_people, especially journalists, will read it with an open mind._"


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (18 Jun 2015)

Manolo, Manolo, please go, please go...
http://velonews.competitor.com/2015...to-head-new-u23-and-elite-amateur-team_374427


----------



## RobNewcastle (20 Jun 2015)

Interesting listening to the Telegraph cycling podcast the other day, one of the journos (forget which one) touched on the questionable levels of "achievement" at the Giro and the increasing back drop of feeling amongst some riders that all is not well in the peloton. I think a few of us watching the way Astana rode and in particular and the way Landa crossed the line on his stage win in the mountains so "effortlessly" has raised eyebrows. 

Does this suggets that the problem is greater than previously thought? Wasn't there a recent French study on micro dosing which showed that serious gains could be made without detection. I feel like most of what I'm watching these days is far more believable and riders certainly seem to have more bad days, look more tired and you don't see those outrageous long lone effort attacks like you used to (Rasmussen eg). 

But if journos and cyclists are asking questions about how Astana looked for example then surely the UCI must have noticed too?


----------



## blackgoff (20 Jun 2015)

Yes i share the Astana thoughts, s.things amiss. Aru made a miraculous resurrection even Christ would be proud of lol

The giro was soo fast even the breaks very rarely happened. Generally it was Tinkoff riding for the 1st part then Astana never got off the front...for the 2nd ½ of race... & Contador sat on, effectively.

If you follow Durianrider, he outz alot, even tho 'its clean now, its not. I don't know why, but I've been in this sport for 30yrs and even back when epo was flying around the 'way' they rode was questionable.. and so i fell something's amiss. How can Aru turn around & put a better performance in than when he started ? It'll never be perfect ! Where competition is, never, ever.


----------



## psmiffy (20 Jun 2015)

RobNewcastle said:


> But if journos and cyclists are asking questions about how Astana looked for example then surely the UCI must have noticed too?



Yup - Im sure they have - but as been discussed pure infinitum here and elsewhere how do you prove it - Im sure better minds than mine are working to try to find solutions - short of sending an army of Marmies to the finishing lines with red cards what can the UCI do within the legal framework they have to work within


----------



## RobNewcastle (20 Jun 2015)

psmiffy said:


> Yup - Im sure they have - but as been discussed pure infinitum here and elsewhere how do you prove it - Im sure better minds than mine are working to try to find solutions - short of sending an army of Marmies to the finishing lines with red cards what can the UCI do within the legal framework they have to work within



Well put.


----------



## smutchin (20 Jun 2015)

RobNewcastle said:


> surely the UCI must have noticed too?



The UCI tried to take away Astana's licence at the start of the season. 

Unfortunately, it turns out taking away a team's licence is a bit more complicated than saying "It's my ball, you're not playing."


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (20 Jun 2015)

psmiffy said:


> Im sure better minds than mine are working to try to find solutions



I think better minds than yours are thinking of more ways to avoid detection. And are succeeding.

As I have previously posted, it's time to re-think the approach to doping and move it away from "science"


----------



## Flying_Monkey (20 Jun 2015)

Marmion said:


> I think better minds than yours are thinking of more ways to avoid detection. And are succeeding.
> 
> As I have previously posted, it's time to re-think the approach to doping and move it away from "science"



Unfortunately that still sounds as silly as when you first posted it. The best thing in terms of testing would actually be to use the best tests that exist. The fact is that no sports do. The second thing would be to improve the biological passport, which is a very good idea not yet well enough implemented, and firm up the rules surrounding it. The third thing would be to integrate all the MPCC rules into UCI practice, make them the law. There are others...


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (20 Jun 2015)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Unfortunately that still sounds as silly as when you first posted it...



If things continue to be based on science then we'll never get anywhere and the dopers will continue to win.


----------



## smutchin (20 Jun 2015)

I'm not sure I really understand what you mean by an "ethical" approach to anti-doping, @Marmion, but it sounds a bit like the declaration that teams signed post-Festina in 1999. 

Ask Christophe Bassons how effective that was.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (20 Jun 2015)

smutchin said:


> I'm not sure I really understand what you mean by an "ethical" approach to anti-doping, @Marmion, but it sounds a bit like the declaration that teams signed post-Festina in 1999.
> 
> Ask Christophe Bassons how effective that was.



I don't think there was a particularly strong enforcement approach taken. 

As I posted earlier, there needs to be a framework and regulation of that framework; I'm not going to come up with what that looks like, as I sit here eating my pies and drinking my beer, but most professions can make it work - I reckon sport could do likewise. If they could be arsed. I don't think they can tho.


----------



## smutchin (20 Jun 2015)

There was plenty of "enforcement" on stage 10 of the 1999 TdF - shamefully so.

I do think much has changed for the better since then - it's easier for individuals to speak out against doping, for example - but there's clearly still a two-speed peloton (more so in some races than others, perhaps).


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (21 Jun 2015)

I wonder if the Danish doping report might be released within the next few days, prior to the Tour?
http://cyclingtips.com.au/2015/01/r...lation-to-anti-doping-denmarks-investigation/


----------



## 400bhp (21 Jun 2015)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Unfortunately that still sounds as silly as when you first posted it. The best thing in terms of testing would actually be to use the best tests that exist. The fact is that no sports do. The second thing would be to improve the biological passport, which is a very good idea not yet well enough implemented, and firm up the rules surrounding it. The third thing would be to integrate all the MPCC rules into UCI practice, make them the law. There are others...



And the fourth thing would be to have much harsher penalties.


----------



## Flying_Monkey (22 Jun 2015)

Marmion said:


> I don't think there was a particularly strong enforcement approach taken.
> 
> As I posted earlier, there needs to be a framework and regulation of that framework; I'm not going to come up with what that looks like, as I sit here eating my pies and drinking my beer, but most professions can make it work - I reckon sport could do likewise. If they could be arsed. I don't think they can tho.



If you have an ethical framework that needs enforcing, then you have to have standards of evidence, bases for legal challenge etc., and I'm pretty sure that a lot of this will come down to science. I'm not against an ethical framework, but you have to remember that the core of the current system is already an ethical one - the basic understanding that riders will not cheat. The Olympic code, which WADA incorporated and extended is exactly this.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (22 Jun 2015)

Flying_Monkey said:


> ...and I'm pretty sure that a lot of this will come down to science.


A lot of it will still come down to science, but at present it is 100% down to science (as far as I can tell anyway).

The USADA case against Armstrong succeeded where science failed. My memory fails me as to what the differences in terms of "burden of proof" were - I do remember at the time when the case was "dropped" thinking that the decision may have been due to seeing the USADA resolving the matter a lot quicker, and more successfully, which turned out to be the case.

As I have previously posted I don't have a framework to hand which could be adopted; I just think the approach needs to be different.


----------



## rich p (22 Jun 2015)

Nicki Sorensen fesses up to doping prior to the Danish report's release.
No surprise there but another doper in the role of a DS
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/nicki-srensen-admits-to-doping-during-his-career


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (22 Jun 2015)

rich p said:


> Nicki Sorensen fesses up to doping prior to the Danish report's release.
> No surprise there but another doper in the role of a DS



It's astounding how many pros doped "at the start" of their careers "many years ago" and then stopped doing it, eh?
Cannae by that good if they stop doing it when they start to move up the pro ranks and winning. If it was more than 10 years ago as Sorensen claims he then managed to win the Danish road championship 3 times unaided - what a star.


----------



## robertob (23 Jun 2015)

Marmion said:


> It's astounding how many pros doped "at the start" of their careers "many years ago" and then stopped doing it, eh?
> Cannae by that good if they stop doing it when they start to move up the pro ranks and winning. If it was more than 10 years ago as Sorensen claims he then managed to win the Danish road championship 3 times unaided - what a star.


That's is quite natural. With experience and age the human become wiser, more mature and of course mentally stronger. You understand the world you live in so much better. This is when you realize your love for the sport is all that matters and you don't need to rely on prohibited substances any longer - you understand winning at all costs isn't cool. You're doped by pure love from now on - by pure love for what you're doing. And because you love it so much you can push yourself so much harder, and you unlock suddenly additional watts. No need for cortisone or stuff like that as well. Because you really love it you're fasting now in order to shed tons of weight in a very short amount of time. Your love for doing it clean is fuelling you.


----------



## Crackle (23 Jun 2015)

I've always held out the hope that Sastre was a clean winner and this report would add weight to that.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/sastre-denies-riis-tried-to-persuade-him-to-dope


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (23 Jun 2015)

Crackle said:


> I've always held out the hope that Sastre was a clean winner and this report would add weight to that.
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/sastre-denies-riis-tried-to-persuade-him-to-dope



What about Jensie? And the others...
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ant...t-reveals-widespread-doping-under-riis-at-csc


----------



## Crackle (23 Jun 2015)

Marmion said:


> What about Jensie? And the others...
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ant...t-reveals-widespread-doping-under-riis-at-csc


Is he named in the report? All I've seen so far is summaries. Some of them are no real surprise but I'm taking the lack of mention of some as a good sign.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (23 Jun 2015)

Crackle said:


> Is he named in the report? All I've seen so far is summaries. Some of them are no real surprise but I'm taking the lack of mention of some as a good sign.



I'm taking it that unless there is anything to say otherwise everyone at CSC doped - no point appearing completely gullible


----------



## Crackle (23 Jun 2015)

Marmion said:


> I'm taking it that unless there is anything to say otherwise everyone at CSC doped -* no point appearing completely gullible*


Don't worry, there's no fear of that.


----------



## robertob (23 Jun 2015)

Marmion said:


> What about Jensie? And the others...
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ant...t-reveals-widespread-doping-under-riis-at-csc


Jens has always vehemently denied any doping at all. I don't know, to an extend I find it hard to believe. Not only because of the recent reports - I mean many of that isn't all that new, is it? Hamilton said similar stuff about Riis before - but because he was riding for a team where doping was obviously widespread under a director who encouraged actively a doping culture. Over the years you could hear certain allegations also against Voigt here and there. One the other hand I'd like to believe HIM. Because, well, it's Jens Voigt...... it's the type of rider one would love to believe to be clean. Just hard work, bread and butter, loads of sweat. And in fact he has always been really convincing when he talked about doping, his stance against it and that he certainly would have never ever, every, ever doped himself.

Will we ever find out? Does it actually matter? Or shall we move on? Not sure...


----------



## Crackle (23 Jun 2015)

Ok, I'm going to say this out loud: I don't like Jens Voigt. There I've said it. 

I'm of the opinion he didn't dope but that's by the by.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (23 Jun 2015)

He's a nobber.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (24 Jun 2015)

Stuart O'Grady, doping ex-cyclist tweets: "Just because you've obviously never achieved anything in your life mate. Don't believe others can't" in response to a tweet saying it would be interesting to hear about the doping he saw at CSC. 

Dopey twat that he is.


----------



## rich p (24 Jun 2015)

Marmion said:


> Stuart O'Grady, doping ex-cyclist tweets: "Just because you've obviously never achieved anything in your life mate. Don't believe others can't" in response to a tweet saying it would be interesting to hear about the doping he saw at CSC.
> 
> Dopey twat that he is.


He didn't inhale either IIRC. Well only before the statute of limitations again.
He's been given some good quality ripostes tho


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (24 Jun 2015)

Froomedawg missed drugs test:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/other-sports/cycling/tour-de-france-hero-chris-5943268

Whilst I am not gullible enough to think he's whiter than white I do like his "It's my responsibility, the buck stops with me" attitude to having missed the test. Rather than the blubbering "ooohhhh poor me, do you know how hard it is to have to subject yourself to testing" pish you usually hear.


----------



## smutchin (24 Jun 2015)

I find that hugely reassuring. The story is entirely plausible and he had clearly gone to the trouble of notifying the authorities where he would be. His attitude is commendable. 

The system allows for up to three missed tests, presumably to take account of genuine no-fault cases such as this appears to be.


----------



## smutchin (24 Jun 2015)

Also full marks to the Mirror for journalism. While I'm reassured by his answers to their questions, I suspect that rather than an attack of candour, this story arose from them discovering that he'd missed a test and confronting him about it.


----------



## mjr (25 Jun 2015)

smutchin said:


> Also full marks to the Mirror for journalism. While I'm reassured by his answers to their questions, I suspect that rather than an attack of candour, this story arose from them discovering that he'd missed a test and confronting him about it.


Never sure what I think about that: it's a missed test, not a positive, but you wouldn't know that from how some people treat it


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (25 Jun 2015)

Henao report - "as soon as possible"...
http://cyclingtips.com.au/2015/06/u...al-passport-study-publication-drawing-closer/


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (25 Jun 2015)

smutchin said:


> Also full marks to the Mirror for journalism. While I'm reassured by his answers to their questions, I suspect that rather than an attack of candour, this story arose from them discovering that he'd missed a test and confronting him about it.



I find it strange that the testers just went "aye ok then, we'll not bother" when the hotel staff said they would not contact Froome rather than say "listen matey boy, you want to "protect" your guests yeh? Well get his arse down here pronto or he's in deep shoot..."


----------



## smutchin (25 Jun 2015)

mjray said:


> Never sure what I think about that: it's a missed test, not a positive, but you wouldn't know that from how some people treat it



A missed test is grounds for suspicion, even if you have a seemingly plausible excuse. And in any case, if you've got your microdosing right, there's no real need to miss a test anyway.



Marmion said:


> I find it strange that the testers just went "aye ok then, we'll not bother" when the hotel staff said they would not contact Froome rather than say "listen matey boy, you want to "protect" your guests yeh? Well get his arse down here pronto or he's in deep shoot..."



To be fair, I imagine you have to be a pretty strong personality to get a job as desk staff at the kind of hotel Froome can afford to stay in.


----------



## raindog (25 Jun 2015)

Seems a bit odd that the testers didn't just hang around a bit untill he came down for breakfast....


----------



## Hont (25 Jun 2015)

raindog said:


> Seems a bit odd that the testers didn't just hang around a bit untill he came down for breakfast....


They would have to assume that their appearance would be known to the riders (whether that is the case or not) having identified themselves, so waiting and giving enough time to drink loads of water/take a masking agent etc is not really an option. It's the same protocol as not letting riders out of their sight once the test has been notified.



Marmion said:


> I find it strange that the testers just went "aye ok then, we'll not bother" when the hotel staff said they would not contact Froome rather than say "listen matey boy, you want to "protect" your guests yeh? Well get his arse down here pronto or he's in deep shoot..."


It's the rider's responsibility to make themselves available, not the testers to go and find them. And they can't start arguing with Hotel staff as once you're in that scenario you could, as above, be delaying the test. The protocol is the rider is available immediately or it's a missed test.


----------



## HF2300 (25 Jun 2015)

raindog said:


> Seems a bit odd that the testers didn't just hang around a bit untill he came down for breakfast....



I think rightly or wrongly, the attitude is well you've notified a slot, you're weren't available in that slot, you've missed your test - for good reason. I'd imagine the testers have plenty to do other than waiting around to see if athletes show up outside their allotted time.


----------



## Hont (25 Jun 2015)

smutchin said:


> A missed test is grounds for suspicion.


Missing a test is quite easy, that's why you need to miss three before any sanction. 

Cav missed a test in 2011 for example, to considerably less censure... 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...to-missing-out-of-competition-drugs-test.html



smutchin said:


> Also full marks to the Mirror for journalism.


Gaining access to confidential information when the athlete has not actually done anything wrong.


----------



## smutchin (25 Jun 2015)

Hont said:


> Missing a test is quite easy, that's why you need to miss three before any sanction.



I may have mentioned that...



smutchin said:


> The system allows for up to three missed tests, presumably to take account of genuine no-fault cases such as this appears to be.



...but missing a test is still grounds for suspicion. It may well be easy to miss a test but as Froome rightly says, it's his responsibility to make sure he doesn't. It's a fundamental part of his job. Same goes for any athlete. Froome's excuse sounds plausible but that doesn't let him off the hook.

Rio Ferdinand was banned after missing just one test, but then his excuse was even lamer than not hearing the doorbell. 



> Cav missed a test in 2011 for example, to considerably less censure...



Censure? Where? The Mirror piece isn't censuring Froome and the comments in this thread have praised his attitude - especially for the stark contrast between his comments and Mo Farah's.



> Gaining access to confidential information when the athlete has not actually done anything wrong.



He has done something wrong - he missed a mandatory out of competition drug test. Whether or not he has done anything wrong beyond that is a moot point.

Also your phrase "gaining access to confidential information" suggests you suspect underhand methods. I know the Mirror don't have a great track record in that department but that would be pure supposition. Unless you know their source?

The point is that wherever they got the information, they have given Froome a chance to put his side of the story and published a fair and balanced story on the back of it - and because he verified the missed test, they don't need to quote any other source. If there even was one. It is possible that it was a purely speculative question that Froome has chosen to answer candidly.


----------



## Dogtrousers (25 Jun 2015)

Surely the testers should just call his mobile, and circumvent the hotel front desk. He does have a mobile, I presume. Or am I expecting too much in the way of common sense?

I expect the Clinic are in fits of glee at this as clear and irrefutable evidence that he's doped up.  (Not that I necessarily believe he_ isn't _mind.)


----------



## Crackle (25 Jun 2015)

Dogtrousers said:


> Surely the testers should just call his mobile, and circumvent the hotel front desk. He does have a mobile, I presume. Or am I expecting too much in the way of common sense?


They might have but if it was me it would be in a draw switched off overnight. The damn things tend to bleep at funny moments, so it doesn't get taken to bed.


----------



## Dogtrousers (25 Jun 2015)

Crackle said:


> They might have but if it was me it would be in a draw switched off overnight. The damn things tend to bleep at funny moments, so it doesn't get taken to bed.


But you don't need to be contactable by WADA.

Anyway, it's a bit of nothing I think. He seems to have been quite candid about it. I expect this will be a smallish lesson learned for Froome.

Cav mentioned his missed test in his not very interesting autobiog. I think he ended up firing his assistant over the screw up that led to it. Or maybe the tedious book sent me to sleep and I dreamt that bit.


----------



## smutchin (25 Jun 2015)

Interesting blog on the whereabouts system from a journo who submitted himself to it in 2011 - explains why the testers couldn't have just called Froome on his mobile...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/tomfordyce/2011/07/life_on_the_uk_anti-doping.html

The observations on doorbells are wryly amusing.


----------



## Dogtrousers (25 Jun 2015)

smutchin said:


> Interesting blog on the whereabouts system from a journo who submitted himself to it in 2011 - explains why the testers couldn't have just called Froome on his mobile...
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/tomfordyce/2011/07/life_on_the_uk_anti-doping.html
> 
> The observations on doorbells are wryly amusing.


Interesting. _"Testing cannot be done without warning if your phone alerts you first."_ Makes sense.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (25 Jun 2015)




----------



## andrew_s (25 Jun 2015)

Dogtrousers said:


> Interesting. _"Testing cannot be done without warning if your phone alerts you first."_ Makes sense.


They don't seem to worry about the door bell alerting you first though.
I'd have thought that you'd get as much "preparation" time ignoring the bell for half an hour as you would answering your phone. 
If you've put down the 6 am to 7 am slot, it's only going to be the testers or the postman that rings the bell, and you should mostly know if you are in line for receiving a parcel.


----------



## rich p (28 Jun 2015)

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bjarne-riis-my-credibility-is-not-very-high
First honest thing Bjarne has said for a while.


----------



## Berk on a Bike (30 Jun 2015)

Davide Appollonio (Androni Giocattoli - Sidermec) has tested positive for EPO

http://cyclingquotes.com/news/davide_appollonio_tests_positive_for_epo/


----------



## rich p (30 Jun 2015)

Berk on a Bike said:


> Davide Appollonio (Androni Giocattoli - Sidermec) has tested positive for EPO
> 
> http://cyclingquotes.com/news/davide_appollonio_tests_positive_for_epo/




*MORE NEWS:*
*Thibaut Pinot positive ahead of Tour de France

30.06.2015 @ 22:57*
*Davide Appollonio tests positive for EPO

30.06.2015 @ 21:55*
ASO to provide real-time tracking at the Tour de France

30.06.2015 @ 21:30
Tour de France: The potential winners

30.06.2015 @ 19:16

Blimey, for a second I thought Thibaut had been nailed too!
Appollonio and Possoni have subsequently been nailed post Sky.
Maybe Sky should avoid Italians...

...and Devonians too.


----------



## deptfordmarmoset (30 Jun 2015)

rich p said:


> *MORE NEWS:*
> *Thibaut Pinot positive ahead of Tour de France
> 
> 30.06.2015 @ 22:57*
> ...


That Thibault ''headline'' gave me a shock too. I really hope he's clean because he's a talented and promising rider and wasting that talent would be a crime.


----------



## dragon72 (1 Jul 2015)

Appollonio, an Italian, is now riding for Androni Giocattoli, which is interestingly the first Italian team he is riding for as a pro. Before them he was with AG2R, Sky and Cervelo


----------



## smutchin (3 Jul 2015)

Interesting choice to use a pic of Appollonio in Sky kit when he left the team in 2012. 

@rich p I'd completely forgotten Possoni existed. Was he ever actually busted?


----------



## rich p (3 Jul 2015)

smutchin said:


> Interesting choice to use a pic of Appollonio in Sky kit when he left the team in 2012.
> 
> @rich p I'd completely forgotten Possoni existed. Was he ever actually busted?


Not yet! He was mentioned in the Padova Ferrari enquiry. I lost track of whether it was concluded or just rumbles on like Italian justice tends to.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (3 Jul 2015)

Head over to the TdF spoilers thread for Astana rider withdrawal latest...


----------



## Stonechat (3 Jul 2015)

*Lars Boom excluded from Tour de France over cortisol levels*
*http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/lars-boom-excluded-from-tour-de-france-over-cortisol-levels*


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (3 Jul 2015)

Marmion said:


> Head over to the TdF spoilers thread for Astana rider withdrawal latest...





Stonechat said:


> *Lars Boom excluded from Tour de France over cortisol levels*
> *http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/lars-boom-excluded-from-tour-de-france-over-cortisol-levels*



yes. that.


----------



## rich p (3 Jul 2015)

Astana seem to have a lot of awfully bad luck!


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (3 Jul 2015)

rich p said:


> Astana seem to have a lot of awfully bad luck!


My business plan is taking shape...


----------



## robertob (3 Jul 2015)

I'm sure there is a very good explanation for it. 


rich p said:


> Astana seem to have a lot of awfully bad luck!


That isn't unusual. If you ever played Roulette you'll know bad luck REALLY exists!


----------



## Berk on a Bike (3 Jul 2015)

Astana just tried to put out a statement on their website and the site has crashed. LOL.


----------



## rich p (3 Jul 2015)

robertob said:


> I'm sure there is a very good explanation for it.
> 
> That isn't unusual. If you ever played Roulette you'll know bad luck REALLY exists!


Kazakh Roulette?
Katusha play Russian Roulette...


----------



## Strathlubnaig (3 Jul 2015)

Berk on a Bike said:


> Astana just tried to put out a statement on their website and the site has crashed. LOL.


Alessandro Vanotti will arrive in the Netherlands Saturday morning to undergo physical and blood tests and await a UCI decision on the matter (ie...if Boom can be replaced, or not)


----------



## HF2300 (4 Jul 2015)

Marmion said:


> My business plan is taking shape...



So... marketing heather as a masking agent, eh? Cunning.


----------



## The Couch (6 Jul 2015)

Thijs Zonneveld (Dutch ex-rider, now writer, commentator, analist,..) made a brilliant column about Lars Boom (I am made an attempt to do a good translation):

_Lars, boy oh boy, I saw it happen in front of my nose. You stood in front of the camera and you blocked. You stammered. You floundered. You tried to slither from under the question as an eel, but it did not work. You acted like the low cortisol value and the start prohibition by MPCC was nothing. You said:"It's a storm in a teacup". But the bags under your eyes told a different story. That of a tired, sad rider who had found himself at the wrong place at the wrong time and at the wrong team. You messed up the prologue at home and if you do manage to win the cobble stone stage, it will be surrounded by question marks.

What the hell happened in recent years, Lars? You had everything. The legs. The body. The head. The winning mentality. The bravado. You were going to show the world who Lars Boom was, you were going to blow like a hurricane through all early season classics. You weren't afraid to speak up, your future was paved with gold cobblestones, be it in the field, in the time trial or on the road. You had so much talent, that you sometimes (in your young foolishness) didn't know what to do with it .
In exchange for the talent that you have in your earlobe, three-quarters of the peloton would sell their own mother. But in recent years you have not used your talent, instead you've preyed on it. The fire, that burned in you, flares only rarely. You win one or two races per season.. if you put your head to it and make sure your hair is looking good .

Do you remember that after the withdrawal of Rabobank, you were the one within your team shouting the loudest about credibility? Remember when you refused to shake Michael Boogerd hand and wanted to smack Thomas Dekker around because they had tarnished your sport ? Do you remember, Lars? Or do you get forgetful once your salary is deposited from Kazakhstan? There is no other way I can explain that you are currently riding for Aleksandr Vinokourov, in a team that was dogged in the recent past by doping ghosts. That you choose the money, is your right. You want to squander your principles, go ahead. But please stop selling bulls**t. The credibility of the sport doesn't interest Vinokourov and Astana, they were only members of the MPCC to play pretend.

Instead of blaming others for your problems you might have to look at yourself You are 29 now. You haven't been able to even use half of your vast potential and your image is smeared. Your plan to become that hurricane completely failed. That storm in a teacup... Lars, that's you._


----------



## smutchin (6 Jul 2015)

Is Lars Boom the new David Millar?


----------



## Flying_Monkey (6 Jul 2015)

smutchin said:


> Is Lars Boom the new David Millar?



Not even close.


----------



## Berk on a Bike (8 Jul 2015)

Tiernan-Locke fails another test...


----------



## rich p (8 Jul 2015)

Berk on a Bike said:


> Tiernan-Locke fails another test...


FFS - what a tosser


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (8 Jul 2015)

Berk on a Bike said:


> Tiernan-Locke fails another test...





rich p said:


> FFS - what a tosser


Was he passport abnormalities down to him being "píssed up"? Hardly surprising he's been caught drunk driving is it?
It's almost as if he's gone out to try to prove a point about his abnormality...


----------



## Berk on a Bike (8 Jul 2015)

Marmion said:


> Was he passport abnormalities down to him being "píssed up"? Hardly surprising he's been caught drunk driving is it?
> It's almost as if he's gone out to try to prove a point about his abnormality...


More and more he sounds like a boy racer who pissed his career up the wall.


----------



## Crackle (8 Jul 2015)

His doping defence does sound more plausible though.


----------



## Aperitif (9 Jul 2015)

This came up on my news feed earlier today and is about uncontrollable hand shaking...
http://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/Of...e_gets_his_day_in_court_and_news_from_Le_Tour (bear with the adverts at the beginning)


----------



## 400bhp (10 Jul 2015)

Paolini has been suspended

Cocaine


----------



## Strathlubnaig (10 Jul 2015)

400bhp said:


> Paolini has been suspended
> 
> Cocaine


That's a bit of a blow eh


----------



## 400bhp (10 Jul 2015)

Strathlubnaig said:


> That's a bit of a blow eh



Career up in smoke.


----------



## oldroadman (11 Jul 2015)

Crackle said:


> His doping defence does sound more plausible though.


No it does not. The defence was pathetic. He got caught and used all the usual platitudes, in the face of a clear positive. Two years off, and could have been four. Now looking for a team? Which DS is daft enough to take him? Step forward, Aleksander V?


----------



## Crackle (11 Jul 2015)

oldroadman said:


> No it does not. The defence was pathetic. He got caught and used all the usual platitudes, in the face of a clear positive. Two years off, and could have been four. Now looking for a team? Which DS is daft enough to take him? Step forward, Aleksander V?


My tongue was firmly in cheek.


----------



## PaulB (14 Jul 2015)

In the interests of transparency, I found this interesting https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1033149476696091&id=213103522034028


----------



## smutchin (15 Jul 2015)

Francesco Reda, who finished a 'surprising' (it says here) second to Nibbles in the Italian championships, tests positive for EPO...
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news...-runner-up-reda-tests-positive-for-epo-182670

Ulissi came third.

This is Reda's second ban for EPO. And he was thrown off the Ras earlier this year for holding on to a car.


----------



## classic33 (15 Jul 2015)

Lance Armstrongs view on things


----------



## rich p (15 Jul 2015)

It's fine Lance, don't fret, I wasn't going to ask you for your opinion


----------



## Berk on a Bike (16 Jul 2015)

Tweets from the TDF One Day Ahead people suggest it's already a media scrum. I wonder if the ordinary team members knew what they were letting themselves in for when they committed their £50,000 each...


----------



## Big Dave laaa (16 Jul 2015)

Froome woken at 6.30 this morning for a doping test. I hope he's usually an early riser because these guys deserve their sleep. As for Armstrong, isn't it about time he just went away?


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (24 Jul 2015)

Rasmussen and Rendell had a "frank, disarming and moving" interview today which will be on ITV website soon


----------



## Flying_Monkey (25 Jul 2015)

Anyone seen the latest Ricardo Ricco news? Apparently he's involved in a new investigation into supplying doping products... the guy is really the most enormous tool, and apparently dumb as muck:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/riccardo-ricc-caught-up-in-new-drug-investigation-in-italy/


----------



## Bollo (26 Jul 2015)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Anyone seen the latest Ricardo Ricco news? Apparently he's involved in a new investigation into supplying doping products... the guy is really the most enormous tool, and apparently dumb as muck:
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/riccardo-ricc-caught-up-in-new-drug-investigation-in-italy/


That'll mess with his 2024 comeback plans.


----------



## oldroadman (27 Jul 2015)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Anyone seen the latest Ricardo Ricco news? Apparently he's involved in a new investigation into supplying doping products... the guy is really the most enormous tool, and apparently dumb as muck:
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/riccardo-ricc-caught-up-in-new-drug-investigation-in-italy/


He really is stupid. He'll end up in jail and deserves it.


----------



## Berk on a Bike (27 Jul 2015)

Fabio Taborre of Androni-Giocattoli Sidermec tests positive for FG-4592. As it's the second AAF in 12 months for AGS the whole team faces a suspension of up to 45 days under new rules.

http://www.uci.ch/pressreleases/uci...continental-team-androni-giocattoli-sidermec/


----------



## HF2300 (28 Jul 2015)

I looked at a couple of cyclists' Twitter feeds and now keep getting messages from Twitter asking me if I want to follow Lance Armstrong.


----------



## steveindenmark (28 Jul 2015)

When are the cycling bodies going to grow some balls and start handing out life bans to these jokers? Not just from riding, but from having anything to do with either professional or amateur cycling. It is an easy solution, because at the moment the deterrent is not working.


----------



## 400bhp (28 Jul 2015)

steveindenmark said:


> When are the cycling bodies going to grow some balls and start handing out life bans to these jokers? Not just from riding, but from having anything to do with either professional or amateur cycling. It is an easy solution, because at the moment the deterrent is not working.



Agree personally (second failure though) but it's the potential litigation that really stops this happening. There just isn't enough downside (across the piece, not just in cycling) for doping to become to risky to partake in.

Or another one is get them to pay some penal tax rate for the rest of their working lives. Or, feck it, just string em up.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (29 Jul 2015)

I have not had the chance to read/listen to this in its entirety yet but an "expose" of Colombian cycling
http://www.alpsandes.com/posts/2015...legas-speaks-out-about-being-forced-to-retire


----------



## HF2300 (29 Jul 2015)

User said:


> here is the first interview, more interesting reading...
> http://www.alpsandes.com/posts/2015/2/17/juan-pablo-villegas
> 
> I'm a bit confused who he was racing for in 2015, google says Team smartstop (usa) but the article said Manaza Postobon



The linked article about 4-72 Colombia is interesting as well.

It sounds as the he raced for SmartStop until May (having been with 4-72 Colombia in 2014), then went back to Colombia and did a couple of races for Manzana Postobon before retiring. There's an allegation in one of the comments that he punched a load of riders in an American race, but how true it is I don't know and Google isn't telling.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (31 Jul 2015)

dum.dum. duuuuuuuuhhhhmmm
http://cyclingtips.com.au/2015/08/tour-de-france-samples-to-be-tested-for-epo-booster-fg-4592/


----------



## User169 (3 Aug 2015)

Tom Danielson's tweeting he's tested +ve for synthetic testosterone.


----------



## rich p (3 Aug 2015)

Delftse Post said:


> Tom Danielson's tweeting he's tested +ve for synthetic testosterone.


http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tom-danielson-tests-positive-for-testosterone/

That's an odd one. It seems pretty perverse if it's true.


----------



## Hont (3 Aug 2015)

Bit of an odd one, since you don't join Garmin if you intend (in his case to carry on) doping, but then I can't see synthetic testosterone being a plausible contaminant. It's to his credit that he announced it and he's not offering weasily excuses, but we'll see.


----------



## Mattonsea (3 Aug 2015)

Hont said:


> Bit of an odd one, since you don't join Garmin if you intend (in his case to carry on) doping, but then I can't see synthetic testosterone being a plausible contaminant. It's to his credit that he announced it and he's not offering weasily excuses, but we'll see.


Seems a tad strange ,good time to pop the news out considering the poo storm in Athletics'.


----------



## Crackle (3 Aug 2015)

Perhaps he accidentally shook Alberto Salazar's hand?


----------



## Strathlubnaig (3 Aug 2015)

but none of the cool kids dope


----------



## smutchin (3 Aug 2015)

Hont said:


> Bit of an odd one, since you don't join Garmin if you intend (in his case to carry on) doping, but then I can't see synthetic testosterone being a plausible contaminant. It's to his credit that he announced it and he's not offering weasily excuses, but we'll see.



"I will now, as I wait for the B test, have the supplements I take, tested to see if this is what caused it."
https://twitter.com/tomdanielson/status/628078715159719936

That sounds a tad weaselish to me, I'm afraid.


----------



## ColinJ (3 Aug 2015)

smutchin said:


> "I will now, as I wait for the B test, have the supplements I take, tested to see if this is what caused it."
> https://twitter.com/tomdanielson/status/628078715159719936
> 
> That sounds a tad weaselish to me, I'm afraid.


If you had not been doping then there could only be three possible explanations:

The test results from the lab are wrong
You took something contaminated by something that affected the results
Somebody deliberately nobbled your samples or they got contaminated
.
I think it would be _more_ 'weaselish' to suggest that a lab did not test or protect samples properly!


----------



## mjr (3 Aug 2015)

smutchin said:


> "I will now, as I wait for the B test, have the supplements I take, tested to see if this is what caused it."
> https://twitter.com/tomdanielson/status/628078715159719936
> 
> That sounds a tad weaselish to me, I'm afraid.


Don't people get a shorter ban if it's found to be inadvertent consumption by undocumented inclusion in a supplement? If so, I think whether he's weaseling depends on how he reacts to any ban.

Surely with the growth of sportives and so on, there's an incentive for short-sighted mass-market supplement makers to slip in a Performance-Enhancing Drug to make their product seem more effective and boost sales until they get caught and trashed or closed down by regulators, so would it really be surprising if a pro or two falls foul of them?


----------



## mjr (3 Aug 2015)

ColinJ said:


> Somebody deliberately nobbled your samples or they got contaminated


I've been wondering what scope there is for that FG-4592 pill to be crushed and slipped to riders you don't like to eliminate them from competition for a while...


----------



## smutchin (3 Aug 2015)

mjray said:


> If so, I think whether he's weaseling depends on how he reacts to any ban.



I have a problem with him expecting us to believe that there's any other explanation than the most obvious one.


----------



## Crackle (3 Aug 2015)

It is fairly hard to come across synthetic testosterone. Supplement contamination seems unlikely.


----------



## rich p (3 Aug 2015)

Crackle said:


> It is fairly hard to come across synthetic testosterone. Supplement contamination seems unlikely.


Viagra?


----------



## rich p (3 Aug 2015)

If it's proven, I imagine that Vaughters will be thoroughly píssed off.


----------



## Crackle (3 Aug 2015)

rich p said:


> Viagra?


Aren't the Chinese putting that in beer?

Here's a long but interesting article on supplement contamination

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/143/11/1843S.long


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (6 Aug 2015)

Oh hark at Horner, sat in the corner, throwing his vials out of the pram
http://velonews.competitor.com/2015...ed-colorado-on-my-resume-when-i-retire_380743


----------



## smutchin (6 Aug 2015)

I don't know who is the bigger nobber - the 93-year-old nobber the piece is about or the 12-year-old nobber who wrote it:



> Editorial Intern Michael Better fell in love with cycling during the Armstrong era. He is always happiest on his bike. Michael can usually be found chasing his Strava PR on any of the local climbs or sipping a cappuccino at the local cafe.


----------



## Hont (6 Aug 2015)

Marmion said:


> Oh hark at Horner, sat in the corner, throwing his vials out of the pram
> http://velonews.competitor.com/2015...ed-colorado-on-my-resume-when-i-retire_380743


"I am a grand tour winner"

For the moment.


----------



## fossyant (6 Aug 2015)

Crackle said:


> It is fairly hard to come across synthetic testosterone. Supplement contamination seems unlikely.



Do you want some? 

I have a box of gel and an ampule of injectable stuff.

PS you can't it's mine all mine. I have injections every three weeks but I am on my knees sweating like a lady on menopause. Just had a gel top up as injection not due till next week.


----------



## HF2300 (6 Aug 2015)

OK. My money's on @fossyant for the next TdF drug scandal


----------



## fossyant (6 Aug 2015)

HF2300 said:


> OK. My money's on @fossyant for the next TdF drug scandal



Shssh


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (9 Aug 2015)

The UCI want us to speak out and report doping:
http://www.uci.ch/clean-sport/help-...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

I wonder if I was to drop them an email saying "Astana, FFS" if they'd do anything about it?


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (10 Aug 2015)

Marmion said:


> Oh hark at Horner, sat in the corner, throwing his vials out of the pram



He's having a rant again:
“The UCI has taken it from one extreme, where they used to just allow whatever you needed..."
How's he supposed to win?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/horner-blasts-uci-for-denying-asthma-tue/


----------



## rich p (10 Aug 2015)

Marmion said:


> He's having a rant again:
> “The UCI has taken it from one extreme, where they used to just allow whatever you needed..."
> How's he supposed to win?
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/horner-blasts-uci-for-denying-asthma-tue/


He's making a tit of himself lately...


----------



## Supersuperleeds (10 Aug 2015)

rich p said:


> He's making a tit of himself lately...



maybe, but when he retires he will still have Grand Tour Winner on his CV


----------



## Berk on a Bike (18 Aug 2015)

Giampaolo Caruso has tested positive for EPO on a retro-test of a sample from 2012. Second positive for Katusha this year (if it indeed counts as "this year").


----------



## Mattonsea (18 Aug 2015)

Berk on a Bike said:


> Giampaolo Caruso has tested positive for EPO on a retro-test of a sample from 2012. Second positive for Katusha this year (if it indeed counts as "this year").


Nothing on there website,,funny that.
If the evidence from the IAAF ever comes out it would be interesting to see how many former Soviet block countries have dirty doppers.


----------



## Berk on a Bike (18 Aug 2015)

The question is, if this counts as a 2015 test then should the team be suspended from competition? Will J-Rod be prevented from riding the Vuelta...?







EDIT: So according to the UCI, the "two strikes and the team is suspended" rule doesn't apply here because of the date of the original sample.


----------



## HF2300 (18 Aug 2015)

INRNG post about Androni, Garmin and the two strikes rule:

http://inrng.com/2015/08/taking-one-for-the-team/#more-26132


----------



## rich p (18 Aug 2015)

Berk on a Bike said:


> Giampaolo Caruso has tested positive for EPO on a retro-test of a sample from 2012. Second positive for Katusha this year (if it indeed counts as "this year").


It's his second positive - is that a 4 year or an 8 year ban now?
I wonder if he'll sing if he's interviewed?


----------



## oldroadman (19 Aug 2015)

rich p said:


> It's his second positive - is that a 4 year or an 8 year ban now?
> I wonder if he'll sing if he's interviewed?


Should be life ban. I bet he thought he had got away with that one.


----------



## psmiffy (19 Aug 2015)

If they do what they have seemed to do with retro testing - ie cancel all results from the date of the sample and ban from then - a 4year ban would run out just before the start of the 2016 spring classics 

I agree it should be a life ban but im sure the courts will not see it that way - 8 years would effectively be the same


----------



## rich p (19 Aug 2015)

Catching Caruso retrospectively with a new, more sensitive(?) EPO test is relatively small fry. If the UCI/WADA have samples kept from back in those days, are there some other riders quaking in their boots?
Horner, for instance?


----------



## SWSteve (20 Aug 2015)

Why does everyone think Horner was doped?


----------



## smutchin (20 Aug 2015)

ItsSteveLovell said:


> Why does everyone think Horner was doped?



I don't. I think it's perfectly normal for a journeyman pro in the twilight of his career to win a Grand Tour.


----------



## rich p (20 Aug 2015)

ItsSteveLovell said:


> Why does everyone think Horner was doped?


He outrode the top riders of the day, such as Nibali and Valverde, up steep mountain top finishes, after a year of injuries, and his only showing of note being 2nd in the Tour of Utah, IIRC.
He was 41 with very little previous and was heavily hinted to be one of the redacted names in the Armstrong/USADA report.
It's still only speculation however, and as someone once said...

_*Finally, the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics: I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles.* But this is one hell of a race. This is a great sporting event and you should stand around and believe it. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. *I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets — this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it. So Vive le Tour forever!*_


----------



## Hont (20 Aug 2015)

ItsSteveLovell said:


> Why does everyone think Horner was doped?


Because everyone has eyes and a brain.

(Or what Rich P said).


----------



## mjr (20 Aug 2015)

I can't find it now but didn't horner look directly into the camera and say something disturbingly similar after one of the vuelta presentations?


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (20 Aug 2015)

Betsy! Betsy! Betsy!
http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/interviews/pez-talk-betsy-andreu/#.VdZPMLJVikr


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (21 Aug 2015)

*Race Radio* ‏@*TheRaceRadio* 

Fun to watch a bunch of young guys beat Roman Kreuziger. Hasn't been the same since he stopped slamming blood bags with Dr. Ferrari


----------



## Supersuperleeds (22 Aug 2015)

Marmion said:


> Betsy! Betsy! Betsy!
> http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/interviews/pez-talk-betsy-andreu/#.VdZPMLJVikr


Very fitting picture at the end


----------



## Legs (26 Aug 2015)

Betsy Andreu speaks of breastfeeding in the same vein as drugs and drinking... where did that come from?


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (26 Aug 2015)

Landis no longer facing criminal charges, but has a large bill to pay. He'll be looking at Lance to help...

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com...g-floyd-landis-lawsuit-san-diego-restitution/


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (27 Aug 2015)

IAM Cycling have gone all Trainspotting


----------



## Crackle (27 Aug 2015)

His logo lies. He's not cycling, he's heating up some substance in a spoon.


----------



## HF2300 (27 Aug 2015)

Crackle said:


> His logo lies. He's not cycling, he's heating up some substance in a spoon.



Low budget team, they can't afford the full range of clothing for these social events


----------



## jifdave (30 Aug 2015)

Finding it very Sad that I'm now so cynical that damoulin beat froome et al up that finish is flagging up all sorts


----------



## smutchin (30 Aug 2015)

Dumoulin has been threatening a breakthrough performance like that for a while. Probably best to reserve judgment until they get to the real mountains though.

There's a thread about him on the Clinic. It just sounds like they're trotting out the same tired 'incredible performance' lines without giving the matter any real thought. Don't fall into that trap.


----------



## jifdave (30 Aug 2015)

smutchin said:


> Dumoulin has been threatening a breakthrough performance like that for a while. Probably best to reserve judgment until they get to the real mountains though.
> 
> There's a thread about him on the Clinic. It just sounds like they're trotting out the same tired 'incredible performance' lines without giving the matter any real thought. Don't fall into that trap.


Very true. And to be fair he is looking much leaner than before. Let's see how he goes. 

Where is this clinic I hear about so often


----------



## smutchin (30 Aug 2015)

If you don't know, you're probably best off keeping it that way!

But if you must sully yourself:
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=30049&sid=a24330477de4f1d8280af02dfcdb35c0


----------



## Crackle (30 Aug 2015)

jifdave said:


> Where is this clinic I hear about so often


You don't need to read it: It says.. They're all doping, Sky are the worst, anyone who wins is doping, gotta be, must be new drugs yet to be discovered, power produced is unbelievable, he didn't even try to hide it, going full alien, if you don't agree you're a fanboy. I may have missed some out but it could save you reading a million pages of toss to actually find anything worthy.


----------



## jifdave (10 Sep 2015)

And there was me thinking USADA were one of the white lights fighting doping....


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...nned-IVs-day-before-Manny-Pacquiao-fight.html


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (10 Sep 2015)

Kids, don't dope


----------



## HF2300 (10 Sep 2015)

My god! You mean doping is directly correlated with centre partings?!!


----------



## Legs (10 Sep 2015)

Is that a scarecrow?


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (14 Sep 2015)

Trailer for The Program, the biopic of doper Lance, due for release on 16th October
http://velonews.competitor.com/2015...ailer-for-armstrong-biopic-the-program_384797


----------



## Postmanhat (14 Sep 2015)

Legs said:


> Is that a scarecrow?



Well he was out standing in his field


----------



## Berk on a Bike (14 Sep 2015)

According to an interview he gave to the Guardian, Ben Foster took performance-enhancing drugs in preparation for filming The Program because, "it was important for me privately to understand it. And they work."

Doping for your art...?


----------



## SWSteve (14 Sep 2015)

Berk on a Bike said:


> According to an interview he gave to the Guardian, Ben Foster took performance-enhancing drugs in preparation for filming The Program because, "it was important for me privately to understand it. *And they work*."
> 
> Doping for your art...?



No shoot Sherlock


----------



## Stonechat (14 Sep 2015)

Berk on a Bike said:


> According to an interview he gave to the Guardian, Ben Foster took performance-enhancing drugs in preparation for filming The Program because, "it was important for me privately to understand it. And they work."
> 
> Doping for your art...?


Well in that case I won't see the film I wasn't going to watch anyway


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (19 Sep 2015)

Dumoulin can see no reason his data should not be shared
http://www.ad.nl/ad/nl/5612/Vuelta-...-ontploffing-van-Dumoulin-in-cijfertjes.dhtml


----------



## HF2300 (19 Sep 2015)

Can't read the Dutch and Google Translate can't get past the cookie warning, but 'ontploffing' is a brilliant word, whatever it means.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (19 Sep 2015)

HF2300 said:


> Can't read the Dutch and Google Translate can't get past the cookie warning, but 'ontploffing' is a brilliant word, whatever it means.


According to my google translate (which had no problems getting past cookies warning) it means explosion


----------



## HF2300 (19 Sep 2015)

Can you link to the Google Translate version of the page?


----------



## Supersuperleeds (19 Sep 2015)

I couldn't get passed cookie warnings either


----------



## Dogtrousers (19 Sep 2015)

The 'explosion' of Dumoulin in numbers
Nearly Tom Dumoulin won the Vuelta. For three weeks he headed to win, but in the sight of Madrid he went under. This is the analysis of its round, on the basis of the figures of its power meter.

I know of no good reason not to share my data rate.
Tom Dumoulin

Tom Dumoulin was named most combative rider of the Vuelta. © afp.
And then it was suddenly. One moment he was hovering on a red cloud, the next he was lying on his back between the smithereens of a broken dream. Tom Dumoulin flew in the Tour of Spain - until the second-last day. But what happened now in the final stages? He received a blow from the man with the hammer? Hit the fatigue in him? Or why his rivals suddenly harder?

You can analyze the Vuelta of Dumoulin in a hundred ways. But when you rid cycling of all frills and tactical games, but remains the basis of: pedal hard. And how hard riders stairs, you can keep up: almost the entire platoon drives around with a power meter. Dumoulin also: on his steering wheel sits a Pioneer box. It is recorded each step of his. And those data be disclosed by him in this piece.

'Why not?'
That's pretty unique. Without exception, such as Steven Kruijswijk after the Giro, there are no classification riders who publish their data. Fearing that the competition is doing a job, or because they are afraid that figures are labeled as abnormal. Dumoulin: ,, I know of no good reason not to share my data rate. Only the data from my trial, I'd rather not make public. It can read other things on my aerodynamics. The rest everyone should know. "

His trainer Adrian Helmantel says: ,, We can declare Toms development with the figures that we have, we share with others. He would participate for the overall win in the Vuelta we had not expected immediately, but it is not strange that it happened. In the winter we have asked ourselves when Tom a big round could win. His performance data showed that it contained. He kicked in earlier trainings and trials values that he did not make it into the matches. In recent Vuelta indeed managed to get a few hours after its share price values. ''


----------



## Bollo (19 Sep 2015)

Dogtrousers said:


> The 'explosion' of Dumoulin in numbers
> Nearly Tom Dumoulin won the Vuelta. For three weeks he headed to win, but in the sight of Madrid he went under. This is the analysis of its round, on the basis of the figures of its power meter.
> 
> I know of no good reason not to share my data rate.
> ...


Well that's cleared things up for me.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (19 Sep 2015)

Dogtrousers said:


> The 'explosion' of Dumoulin in numbers


Part 2 under the pic goes on to say:

*Two parts*
The Vuelta of Dumoulin is divided into two parts: in the first half headed it freely and without the expectation that he would join us for the final victory. In the second half he was slowly but surely one of the favorites to win the Vuelta. Already in the second stage he showed that he could come up with the best climbers of the 460 watts as it considers half minutes long kicking, brought him to second place in the ride. Dumoulin: ,, I wanted to show that I had not been idle after the Tour, I was extremely motivated "Helmantel: ,, naturally lies Toms quality in shorter work: this type of climbing are ideal for him.". It shows. In the first week Dumoulin holds the top position in the short nasty climbs, but also in the longer climb Alpujarras, where Bert-Jan Lindeman wins the ride. The day after one finishes on Cumbre del Sol, a wall of about four kilometers. Dumoulin attacks and is taken back by Chris Froome, but he has picked up and is the winner. The power meter provides 460 watts of eleven minutes. Helmantel: ,, Incredibly high, but it is still below the record of his training. Particularly special is that he can after four hours race. "Dumoulin:. ,, Here I surprised myself I felt even stronger than in the first days of the Vuelta.


----------



## HF2300 (19 Sep 2015)

Marmion said:


> Part 2 under the pic goes on to say:
> 
> *Two parts*
> The Vuelta of Dumoulin is divided into two parts: in the first half headed it freely and without the expectation that he would join us for the final victory. In the second half he was slowly but surely one of the favorites to win the Vuelta. Already in the second stage he showed that he could come up with the best climbers of the 460 watts as it considers half minutes long kicking, brought him to second place in the ride. Dumoulin: ,, I wanted to show that I had not been idle after the Tour, I was extremely motivated "Helmantel: ,, naturally lies Toms quality in shorter work: this type of climbing are ideal for him.". It shows. In the first week Dumoulin holds the top position in the short nasty climbs, but also in the longer climb Alpujarras, where Bert-Jan Lindeman wins the ride. The day after one finishes on Cumbre del Sol, a wall of about four kilometers. Dumoulin attacks and is taken back by Chris Froome, but he has picked up and is the winner. The power meter provides 460 watts of eleven minutes. Helmantel: ,, Incredibly high, but it is still below the record of his training. Particularly special is that he can after four hours race. "Dumoulin:. ,, Here I surprised myself I felt even stronger than in the first days of the Vuelta.



I'm willing to bet it *doesn't* go on to say that, not in the original Dutch anyway! 

Thanks @Marmion & @Dogtrousers


----------



## HF2300 (23 Sep 2015)

Marmion said:


> Dumoulin can see no reason his data should not be shared
> http://www.ad.nl/ad/nl/5612/Vuelta-...-ontploffing-van-Dumoulin-in-cijfertjes.dhtml



INRNG discussion of Dumoulin's ontploffing, or otherwise:

http://inrng.com/2015/09/dumoulin-power-data-sharing/#more-26493


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (24 Sep 2015)

In twitterland, Race Radio is reporting that former Pro Mariano Piccoli has been sentenced to 18 months and a 15,000 Euro fine for supplying dope to riders on the U23 team he managed.


----------



## rich p (24 Sep 2015)

Marmion said:


> In twitterland, Race Radio is reporting that former Pro Mariano Piccoli has been sentenced to 18 months and a 15,000 Euro fine for supplying dope to riders on the U23 team he managed.


That's a bit dispiriting for those of us who hoped the younger generation were cleaner


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (24 Sep 2015)

rich p said:


> That's a bit dispiriting for those of us who hoped the younger generation were cleaner


I'm not sure how old the supplying charge is, I can't find much detail on the interweb about it, but it could be quite a few years old perhaps 5 or 6 years if the small amount of info I can find is to be relied upon.

Piccoli was named as a supplier during the Mantova enquiry, and it looks as if he was DS of the U23 team around the same time, so 2008/09.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (25 Sep 2015)

Basso might be calling it a day
http://velonews.competitor.com/2015...period-over-after-passing-cancer-check_386115


----------



## User169 (30 Sep 2015)

Belgian prosecutor investigating Alexander Vinokourov and Alexandr Kolobnev has decided they should stand trial on 'private corruption' charges.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (1 Oct 2015)

Delftse Post said:


> Belgian prosecutor investigating Alexander Vinokourov and Alexandr Kolobnev has decided they should stand trial on 'private corruption' charges.


Vino really is the dope(r) who just keeps giving
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/emails-between-vinokourov-and-kolobnev-published/


----------



## Crackle (1 Oct 2015)

Vino says he gives out money left right and centre, he's a generous chap: Unimpeachable (said the judge).


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (3 Oct 2015)

Paolini the only doping git at the Tour
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-release-tour-de-france-doping-control-numbers/


----------



## rich p (3 Oct 2015)

Marmion said:


> Paolini the only doping git at the Tour
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-release-tour-de-france-doping-control-numbers/


They seem to have missed Chris Froome off the list.

I didn't realise that night-time testing was blocked by French law.


----------



## HF2300 (3 Oct 2015)

Speaking of nobbers that keep on giving: http://www.theguardian.com/film/vid...tephen-frears-film-clip-lance-armstrong-video


----------



## HF2300 (4 Oct 2015)

Marmion said:


> Paolini the only doping git at the Tour
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-release-tour-de-france-doping-control-numbers/



Cocaine. Now there's a traditionalist (or a party animal)


----------



## Berk on a Bike (7 Oct 2015)

Michele Ferrari tries to block release of Lance biopic, The Program, in Italy. What a prize shitheel.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mic...lock-distribution-of-armstrong-film-in-italy/


----------



## Berk on a Bike (7 Oct 2015)

Is 7th October "Dopers' Halloween" or something? They're all coming out.

Bjarne Riis offers to buy Tinkoff team back from Oleg Tinkov


----------



## Bollo (7 Oct 2015)

Berk on a Bike said:


> Is 7th October "Dopers' Halloween" or something? They're all coming out.
> 
> Bjarne Riis offers to buy Tinkoff team back from Oleg Tinkov
> 
> View attachment 106037


Now that is a textbook Molly grin.


----------



## Berk on a Bike (7 Oct 2015)

Bollo said:


> Now that is a textbook Molly grin.


He looks constipated


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (20 Oct 2015)

Anyone want to hazard a guess who this multi-doper is? It's a toughie but someone might get it


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (20 Oct 2015)

And Fuentes reported to still be involved in doping, in cycling and triathlon
http://www.abc.es/deportes/20151015/abci-eufemiano-fuentes-201510142113.html


----------



## Strathlubnaig (20 Oct 2015)

Marmion said:


> Anyone want to hazard a guess who this multi-doper is? It's a toughie but someone might get it


yeah, that is indeed a tough one, hmmmm....


----------



## rich p (20 Oct 2015)

Marmion said:


> And Fuentes reported to still be involved in doping, in cycling and triathlon
> http://www.abc.es/deportes/20151015/abci-eufemiano-fuentes-201510142113.html


It was thought that Fuentes might write a book and name names but it seems he's decided that carrying on facilitating doping is more lucrative. Maybe he's on a big fat retainer to keep his trap shut by Nadal, ValvPiti, Bertie and Messi...


----------



## Archie (22 Oct 2015)

Marmion said:


> Anyone want to hazard a guess who this multi-doper is? It's a toughie but someone might get it


Lance Armstrong?


----------



## SWSteve (22 Oct 2015)

Marmion said:


> Anyone want to hazard a guess who this multi-doper is? It's a toughie but someone might get it


 His name is on th fame 4 times, and 6 times on each wheel. It's taking he concept of sewing your name into your school jumper to the umpteenth level!


----------



## HF2300 (23 Oct 2015)

Marmion said:


> And Fuentes reported to still be involved in doping, in cycling and triathlon
> http://www.abc.es/deportes/20151015/abci-eufemiano-fuentes-201510142113.html



"Lover danger of self and money, the canary gynaecologist' according to Google Translate.

I like the way Translate refers to him as 'it' throughout. Obviously Google's bots don't have a high opinion of him either.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (25 Oct 2015)

Jonathan Tiernan Dope due to make a return to the UK scene
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/jonathan-tiernan-locke-aims-for-return-to-cycling-after-ban/


----------



## Crackle (25 Oct 2015)

Marmion said:


> Jonathan Tiernan Dope due to make a return to the UK scene
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/jonathan-tiernan-locke-aims-for-return-to-cycling-after-ban/


I read that the other day with the usual sense of depression. An unrepentant sinner.


----------



## Bollo (25 Oct 2015)

Marmion said:


> Jonathan Tiernan Dope due to make a return to the UK scene
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/jonathan-tiernan-locke-aims-for-return-to-cycling-after-ban/


Working in the property business while banned apparently. It least he's been giving something back.


----------



## Berk on a Bike (27 Oct 2015)

Mauro Santambrogio gets a 3-year ban for his second offence. Lucky it's only 3 years?

http://cyclingtips.com.au/2015/10/t...-for-santambrogio-after-second-positive-test/


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (27 Oct 2015)

Berk on a Bike said:


> Mauro Santambrogio gets a 3-year ban for his second offence. Lucky it's only 3 years?


But he was trying for a baby...god bless 'im. 

Cheating daffodil.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (28 Oct 2015)

Just spotted that Race Radio has posed the following question on twitter:
"Which B-Sample result is delayed because the FBI is investigating if the rider was spiked/sabotaged by his ex-wife?"

It would appear the answer is:
Tom Danielson

I've not encountered that one before...


----------



## ColinJ (28 Oct 2015)

Marmion said:


> Just spotted that Race Radio has posed the following question on twitter:
> "Which B-Sample result is delayed because the FBI is investigating if the rider was spiked/sabotaged by his ex-wife?"
> 
> It would appear the answer is:
> ...


I think that Tyler Hamilton's 'vanishing twin' explanation for a failed blood test will never be bettered!

(Well, I suppose having a pathologically jealous invisible twin who sneaks into labs to spike your samples would be even better, but who would believe _that_? Actually, nobody believed the vanishing twin story either! )


----------



## Stonechat (29 Oct 2015)

ColinJ said:


> I think that Tyler Hamilton's 'vanishing twin' explanation for a failed blood test will never be bettered!
> 
> (Well, I suppose having a pathologically jealous invisible twin who sneaks into labs to spike your samples would be even better, but who would believe _that_? Actually, nobody believed the vanishing twin story either! )


Some people have been found to be chimeras , it just shows the creative thinking of the dopers and theremedical backup


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (29 Oct 2015)

Stonechat said:


> Some people have been found to be chimeras


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (30 Oct 2015)

Mondory handed a 4 year ban - he'll be near to the perfect age and preparation for the Vuelta once it's over
http://velonews.competitor.com/2015...r-year-ban-for-epo_388457#OIPADrCgZvGQC58b.99


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (30 Oct 2015)

...speaking of doping oldies and the Vuelta; it's goodbye from Horner
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/end-of-the-line-for-horner/


----------



## mjr (11 Nov 2015)

Storyville: Lance Armstrong - Stop at Nothing, BBC Four now.


----------



## fossyant (11 Nov 2015)

Marmion said:


> But he was trying for a baby...god bless 'im.
> 
> Cheating daffodil.



Very. Taking Testosterone actually stops Sperm production. He would need Chlomid to kick start his balls.

Farkin idiots the lot of them. I have to have Testosterone injected every two weeks (farkin hurts after - i.e. dead leg (arse cheek) after 24 hours). My level's don't even get near normal after a year of treatment, and the usual dose is every 3 weeks. The abuse levels are 3 injections a WEEK... !!!!

Dopers are really stupid idiots. Yep you won't have kids unless you take stupid amounts of crap...


----------



## fossyant (11 Nov 2015)

PS any test for Testosterone, is the artificial stuff. It's close to the natural stuff, and works just the same, but is easily traceable. If there is any "artificial" in your system, then it's down to 1 reason - either no balls or farked ones (backed up by loads and loads of blood tests over months and months) !! No other reason for the stuff to be there.

SIMPLE !


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (24 Nov 2015)

5 cyclists amongst Portuguese athletes with biological passport abnormalities, identities to be revealed in late December.

http://www.ciclismointernacional.co...-algarve-de-lujo-rominger-quiere-sonar-y-mas/


----------



## rich p (24 Nov 2015)

Marmion said:


> 5 cyclists amongst Portuguese athletes with biological passport abnormalities, identities to be revealed in late December.
> 
> http://www.ciclismointernacional.co...-algarve-de-lujo-rominger-quiere-sonar-y-mas/


It's in forrin


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (24 Nov 2015)

rich p said:


> It's in forrin


Have you not got google translate yet? I thunked you southerner ponces were way ahead of us Scotch Jock peeps...

*"Doping: Five positive in Portugal:* A Bola, one of the most prestigious sports newspaper in Portugal, revealed a few days ago a doping scandal that includes a dozen athletes from around the country. Among them are five riders who have abnormalities in their biological passport.

The World Anti This year, it had increased the number of checks in Portugal and the number of samples taken to keep a tighter control of the biological passport.

According to A Bola explains, the President of the Portuguese Cycling Federation held a meeting with the managers of the six professional teams in the country (W52-Quinta da Lixa, Efapel, Radio Popular-Boavista, Louletano-Ray Energy, Team Tavira and LA aluminum-Antarte) to try this case.

The identity of the athletes involved (a cyclist could add more because there is a case that is under study) will be known in late December and will have to declare before Portugal Anti-Doping Agency."


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (28 Nov 2015)

Whistleblowers are crucial
http://cyclingtips.com.au/2015/11/w...hey-are-crucial-for-cycling-and-other-sports/

But the costs are dear...
http://cyclingtips.com.au/2015/11/whistleblowers-part-2-the-cost-of-speaking-out/


----------



## User169 (3 Dec 2015)

Latest bunch of nobbers...

http://www.uci.ch/mm/Document/News/CleanSport/17/32/52/Copyof20151203SanctionsADRVEN20_English.pdf

Check out the 8 year ban!


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (3 Dec 2015)

Froome's data
http://chrisfroome.esquire.co.uk/


----------



## Crackle (3 Dec 2015)

Marmion said:


> Froome's data
> http://chrisfroome.esquire.co.uk/



Esquire!

Very interesting and seemingly consistent, like Vayer still being a twat.


----------



## deptfordmarmoset (3 Dec 2015)

Crackle said:


> Esquire!
> 
> Very interesting and seemingly consistent, like Vayer still being a twat.


How dare you talk about God like that! Meanwhile, anyone who cycles off with another bike in tow to clean them in a car wash deserves to fall off.


----------



## Crackle (4 Dec 2015)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> anyone who cycles off with another bike in tow to clean them in a car wash deserves to fall off.


Well I wasn't off to clean them but I may have done it and I may have tangled up and fallen off but at least I'm in good company now. Bet Antoine's never done it.


----------



## smutchin (4 Dec 2015)

Crackle said:


> Very interesting and seemingly consistent, like Vayer still being a twat.



Vayer really does come across as a right plonker. The tests are suspicious if they aren't conducted by Vayer himself? FFS.


----------



## Hont (4 Dec 2015)

Marmion said:


> Froome's data
> http://chrisfroome.esquire.co.uk/


The very fact that he has done it gives him more credibility IMHO. But I can't see it shutting the skeptics up nor stopping some people standing on a mountainside with a bottle of yellow liquid in their hands.


----------



## Crackle (4 Dec 2015)

smutchin said:


> Vayer really does come across as a right plonker. The tests are suspicious if they aren't conducted by Vayer himself? FFS.


Don't forget the cheering. All cheered tests are also nullified.

Ross Tucker has written some weasley words as well. He's actually using the word 'Alien' in his graphs. What a twat.


----------



## smutchin (4 Dec 2015)

Ross Tucker should do a column on the science of moving goalposts.

If I were GSK, I'd be thinking about suing Vayer for his slanderous questioning of my credibilty.


----------



## psmiffy (4 Dec 2015)

smutchin said:


> Ross Tucker should do a column on the science of moving goalposts.
> 
> If I were GSK, I'd be thinking about suing Vayer for his slanderous questioning of my credibilty.



It does however highlight how difficult it is to actually establish where to put the goalposts - elite athletes are almost by definition freaks of nature


----------



## DRM (5 Dec 2015)

http://velonews.competitor.com/2015...s-tied-to-katusha-suspended-for-doping_389972

Here's the latest to be suspended.


----------



## SWSteve (6 Dec 2015)

smutchin said:


> Ross Tucker should do a column on the science of moving goalposts.
> 
> If I were GSK, I'd be thinking about suing Vayer for his slanderous questioning of my credibilty.




The mere threat of a multi-national pharma lawsuit would surely give him something to think about.


----------



## User169 (10 Dec 2015)

Good article and podcast about the Canadian racer Genevieve Jeanson at cyclingnews..

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/genevieve-jeanson-exclusive-podcast/


----------



## User169 (10 Dec 2015)

More total dingbats!

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/british-junior-cyclist-admits-to-taking-epo/

Where does a junior rider get EPO from though? 

Also, check out Hasting's defense - a shared needle??!! WTF??!


----------



## Citius (10 Dec 2015)

Delftse Post said:


> Where does a junior rider get EPO from though?



Same place as a senior rider. Black market suppliers are not going to be asking him for ID....


----------



## Crackle (10 Dec 2015)

Delftse Post said:


> More total dingbats!
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/british-junior-cyclist-admits-to-taking-epo/
> 
> ...


Certainly one of the more unusual ones.
_
“On 3 August 2015 I bought EPO for the first time,” Evans wrote in his message_.
_
“On 11 August 2015 I travelled to France for a weeks training camp with the family of a then-teammate. With me I brought one vial of EPO. This was found by the teammate's father who presented evidence to UK Anti-Doping. UKAD contacted me shortly after to arrange a deposition, in which I promptly admitted to all wrongdoing. I withdrew from the upcoming Junior Tour of Wales, the premier event on the junior calendar
_
He admitted his purchase on TT forum, all a bit naive


----------



## User169 (10 Dec 2015)

Citius said:


> Same place as a senior rider. Black market suppliers are not going to be asking him for ID....



Well self-evidently, but looking back to the Genevieve Jeanson link I posted today, there was a back drop of a dodgy coach and credulous parents. Here we seem to be asked to believe a similarly-aged junior managed this on his tod (unless there's more than's being reported). 

The other odd thing is that his chum's father found the vial of EPO. My kids occasionally have friends to stay, but it had never occurred to me to rifle through their effects.


----------



## Citius (10 Dec 2015)

Probably found it in the fridge.

I don't know enough (ie anything) about Evans' personal circumstances to comment on whether anyone else might have been involved.


----------



## Shadow (11 Dec 2015)

Delftse Post said:


> Good article and podcast about the Canadian racer Genevieve Jeanson at cyclingnews..


How desperately sad.
And Aubut sounds like a particularly nasty piece of work.


----------



## smutchin (18 Dec 2015)

User said:


> he made a statement-confession on the TT-forum a day or two ago, the above is an extract form that statement...



In summary: "I didn't inhale"


----------



## User169 (6 Jan 2016)

2 year ban for Boogerd. 

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/jan/06/michael-boogerd-banned-doping-cycling-rabobank


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (7 Jan 2016)

Another tale from a doper who got caught the first time he doped, Rabottini. What's that? You smell shite? Surely not.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/rabottini-epo-doping-sent-me-to-hell-and-ive-lost-everything/


Anyway, diddums.


----------



## rich p (7 Jan 2016)

Marmion said:


> Another tale from a doper who got caught the first time he doped, Rabottini. What's that? You smell shite? Surely not.
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/rabottini-epo-doping-sent-me-to-hell-and-ive-lost-everything/
> 
> 
> Anyway, diddums.


Some team will have him back, no doubt.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (7 Jan 2016)

rich p said:


> Some team will have him back, no doubt.


The number of World Tour and Pro Conti teams that welcome back unrepentant dopers must be diminishing by now _surely_?

Maybe Bardiani, Androni, and CCC, and possibly Nippo Vini Fantini? Otherwise I get a feeling he'll join the growing list of dopers who end up riding Gran Fondos and carry on their evil ways.


----------



## oldroadman (7 Jan 2016)

Marmion said:


> The number of World Tour and Pro Conti teams that welcome back unrepentant dopers must be diminishing by now _surely_?
> 
> Maybe Bardiani, Androni, and CCC, and possibly Nippo Vini Fantini? Otherwise I get a feeling he'll join the growing list of dopers who end up riding Gran Fondos and carry on their evil ways.


It appears that UCI will be testing in some of the UCI Fondos, that will be a nice surprise for some people...


----------



## mjr (8 Jan 2016)

oldroadman said:


> It appears that UCI will be testing in some of the UCI Fondos, that will be a nice surprise for some people...


Do you mean the UWCT ones like Tour of Cambridgeshire? And can they sanction anyone who doesn't hold a racing licence?


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (8 Jan 2016)

An interesting article on cyclingnews (a rare occurrence nowadays) with an interview with Katusha doc and the use of sleeping medication and alcohol
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/katusha-doctor-warns-of-medication-and-alcohol-abuse-in-the-peloton/


----------



## oldroadman (9 Jan 2016)

mjray said:


> Do you mean the UWCT ones like Tour of Cambridgeshire? And can they sanction anyone who doesn't hold a racing licence?


No idea, but that's what has been rumbling around. If it gets rid of suspended riders who are tarnishing the events with their presence, all to the good.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (10 Jan 2016)

The name-calling and high-horse-nobbery from the doping nobbers is quite amusing
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/lan...s-become-the-self-appointed-hypocrisy-police/

And Landis' impression of the Credit Lyonnais lion is to be commended.


----------



## mjr (10 Jan 2016)

"Obviously something was lost in translation there, or he was on more than just performance enhancing drugs,” Landis said.

Comedy gold!


----------



## Flying_Monkey (10 Jan 2016)

I wish the cycling press would just stop reporting on what Armstrong thinks. We don't care.


----------



## rich p (10 Jan 2016)

Flying_Monkey said:


> I wish the cycling press would just stop reporting on what Armstrong thinks. We don't care.


Exactly. Just pìss off and lose a court case Lance.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (11 Jan 2016)

Meanwhile, in Spain...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...g-scandal-as-Operation-Puerto-resurfaces.html


----------



## Bobby Mhor (11 Jan 2016)

Marmion said:


> Meanwhile, in Spain...
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...g-scandal-as-Operation-Puerto-resurfaces.html


This is going to be interesting...
I think more than a few big Spanish sports personalities will be thinking in the next couple of days..
I wouldn't surprised if the samples get destroyed..
More than cycling has to be implicated...
this could make the recent Russian affair look tame esp if Spanish footballers are involved.....
 at the ready.


or has some ehmm.. disappeared


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (11 Jan 2016)

Bobby Mhor said:


> This is going to be interesting...
> I think more than a few big Spanish sports personalities will be thinking in the next couple of days..
> I wouldn't surprised if the samples get destroyed..
> More than cycling has to be implicated...
> ...


Nothing would surprise me - it could be that they are released for testing, all intact with the aftermath of usual waffle, or it could be they are destroyed on order of the court, or it could be that the decree is to release them and we find that someone has already poured them down the plughole, or etc etc etc


----------



## rich p (11 Jan 2016)

We could circumvent all this if Fuentes would write his autobiography and grass all the other athletes up. Preferably before the samples are destroyed which would save him from litigation.


----------



## User169 (11 Jan 2016)

Sort of on topic. This from Mo Farah and a link to Fuentes..

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/jan/09/mo-farah-cheating-banned-for-life-alemayehu-bezabeh


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (11 Jan 2016)

Delftse Post said:


> Sort of on topic. This from Mo Farah and a link to Fuentes..
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/jan/09/mo-farah-cheating-banned-for-life-alemayehu-bezabeh


I'm supposing he has forgotten all about his coach doping other athletes?


----------



## oldroadman (11 Jan 2016)

Delftse Post said:


> Sort of on topic. This from Mo Farah and a link to Fuentes..
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/jan/09/mo-farah-cheating-banned-for-life-alemayehu-bezabeh


The name Salazar springs to mind. He may coach people but obviously he does not encourage them to use any "remedies". If he did and MF was a recipient, he should ask for his money back after his cross country result!
Note that Radcliffe is on the high horse again, what a PR operator. Just like a certain American who consistently claimed innocence and pure talent beat all the others around him, until he, er, got caught and finally coughed. In her case I want her to be OK, but all the noise is concerning, attack being the best method of defence and all that, and it does her little credit to be seen as a bit of a publicity seeker.


----------



## rich p (11 Jan 2016)

oldroadman said:


> The name Salazar springs to mind. He may coach people but obviously he does not encourage them to use any "remedies". If he did and MF was a recipient, he should ask for his money back after his cross country result!
> Note that Radcliffe is on the high horse again, what a PR operator. Just like a certain American who consistently claimed innocence and pure talent beat all the others around him, until he, er, got caught and finally coughed. In her case I want her to be OK, but all the noise is concerning, attack being the best method of defence and all that, and it does her little credit to be seen as a bit of a publicity seeker.


Bollox, if I might say so.
There was a lot of circumstantial (and indeed, substantial) evidence surrounding Armstrong but there is none about Radcliffe, apart from that she ran a fast marathon time. And innuendo, with nothing, apart from her voluble anti-doping stance. The same sort of bollix that is now directed towards Froome, and before that, Wiggins. I'm surprised at you jumping onto a Clinic-like bandwagon
How would you feel if you held the WR clean and it was suggested that the records should be wiped?


----------



## oldroadman (12 Jan 2016)

rich p said:


> Bollox, if I might say so.
> There was a lot of circumstantial (and indeed, substantial) evidence surrounding Armstrong but there is none about Radcliffe, apart from that she ran a fast marathon time. And innuendo, with nothing, apart from her voluble anti-doping stance. The same sort of bollix that is now directed towards Froome, and before that, Wiggins. I'm surprised at you jumping onto a Clinic-like bandwagon
> How would you feel if you held the WR clean and it was suggested that the records should be wiped?


there is nothing to suggest that PR has been naughty, just that she appears to be a voluble publicity seeker and likes to point fingers. As indeed a certain American did, who went on to be captured. In fact re-read and see the comment "I want her to be Clean". If you think that's spheroids, your right to express it. If staying in the public eye once a career is finished and possibly angling for a job in an anti-doping organisation is an objective, that's a pretty public way to do it. PR is a go-to person for media whenever doping issues are raised, and always good for a clickbait opinion.


----------



## rich p (12 Jan 2016)

oldroadman said:


> what a PR operator. Just like a certain American who consistently claimed innocence and pure talent beat all the others around him, until he, er, got caught and finally coughed. In her case I want her to be OK, but all the noise is concerning, attack being the best method of defence and all that


That bit sounds as if you suspect her of being similar to LA, and are concerned.
Based upon what evidence, circumstantial or otherwise?


----------



## oldroadman (13 Jan 2016)

rich p said:


> That bit sounds as if you suspect her of being similar to LA, and are concerned.
> Based upon what evidence, circumstantial or otherwise?


See reply above. There is no concrete evidence, but a lot of noise, and the blood values business (which was all OK, apparently, good) did not help. Sometimes it's best to keep a lower profile.Unless, of course, you want the publicity and to keep in the public eye. Something of a good job being done there.


----------



## Arrowfoot (13 Jan 2016)

rich p said:


> Bollox, if I might say so.
> There was a lot of circumstantial (and indeed, substantial) evidence surrounding Armstrong but there is none about Radcliffe, apart from that she ran a fast marathon time. And innuendo, with nothing, apart from her voluble anti-doping stance. The same sort of bollix that is now directed towards Froome, and before that, Wiggins. I'm surprised at you jumping onto a Clinic-like bandwagon
> How would you feel if you held the WR clean and it was suggested that the records should be wiped?



Actually there was no iota of evidence against Lance in the public space for years - no documentation, no leakage, no trail just doubts on by a tiny brave few. Even the Journalists were on his side. Suddenly now we have people suggesting that there were circumstantial evidence etc. What circumstantial evidence???? If his mates did not spill, nothing would have changed. 

Paula on the other hand is behaving rather odd and it is not doing her any good. Her rhetoric on doping when she was competing and now is very different. She is now giving interviews on who she feels is guilty and who is not. In essence its damaging her. People who have been with her for decades and now wondering what is going on. She is certainly badly advised about her PR approach and this is where the LA approach to PR is similar.


----------



## rich p (13 Jan 2016)

Arrowfoot said:


> Actually there was no iota of evidence against Lance in the public space for years


----------



## Dogtrousers (14 Jan 2016)

Arrowfoot said:


> She is certainly badly advised about her PR approach and this is where the LA approach to PR is similar.


PR's PR? This is getting confusing.

It'd be good if she moved into public relations full time, perhaps on the US west coast. PR could do PR for LA ... In LA.


----------



## Arrowfoot (14 Jan 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> PR's PR? This is getting confusing.
> 
> It'd be good if she moved into public relations full time, perhaps on the US west coast. PR could do PR for LA ... In LA.


She is actually an important and iconic figure for the country and immensely for British Athletics. People around the World know of her than say Jeremy Corbyn. She can do much for the sport. Someone needs to talk to her


----------



## Arrowfoot (14 Jan 2016)

rich p said:


>



So no iota of evidence as I suggested. Lots of people are masters of hindsight.


----------



## rich p (14 Jan 2016)

Do some research. It's very easy to find, but I have no intention of getting into another LA argument. We've done those to death even on here


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (14 Jan 2016)

Arrowfoot said:


> She is actually an important and iconic figure for the country and immensely for British Athletics. People around the World know of her than say Jeremy Corbyn. She can do much for the sport. Someone needs to talk to her


There is another thread for doping in other sports - perhaps take it there for discussion?


----------



## Arrowfoot (14 Jan 2016)

Marmion said:


> There is another thread for doping in other sports - perhaps take it there for discussion?


Perhaps you can help him out as the comments are directly related to his post.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (14 Jan 2016)

Arrowfoot said:


> Perhaps you can help him out as the comments are directly related to his post.


Will do, on the other thread.


----------



## Arrowfoot (14 Jan 2016)

Marmion said:


> Will do, on the other thread.


Thats fine. I stick to this thread as its relates LA on the supposed evidence prior to his mates spilling.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (14 Jan 2016)

Arrowfoot said:


> Thats fine. I stick to this thread as its relates LA on the supposed evidence prior to his mates spilling.


Aye, no worries.

Dinnae think you'll get much response re your position tho, as @rich p pointed out it's been done to death and you are probably one of a small band of people that thinks there was "no evidence" - good luck with that one!


----------



## Arrowfoot (14 Jan 2016)

Marmion said:


> Aye, no worries.
> 
> Dinnae think you'll get much response re your position tho, as @rich p pointed out it's been done to death and you are probably one of a small band of people that thinks there was "no evidence" - good luck with that one!



After his mates spilled the beans. I asked what "circumstantial evidence" prior to that. He could not offer and I gather neither can you. I am afaid semantics would not help either. Credit though for helping him by not posting his interesting comment on the other thread.


----------



## rich p (14 Jan 2016)

Arrowfoot said:


> He could not offer and I gather neither can you


I could, as could many others, but we've been and done it too many times. Just google it if you're new to this topic.


----------



## mjr (14 Jan 2016)

Oh well, I've not had a go: it looks like David Walsh's accusations and circumstantial evidence was published by the Sunday Times in 2001 under the headline "Champ or cheat?" - before the book with Emma O'Reilley's interview in 2003. Not sure you can count her as Lance's friend either?


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (14 Jan 2016)

Arrowfoot said:


> After his mates spilled the beans. I asked what "circumstantial evidence" prior to that. He could not offer and I gather neither can you. I am afaid semantics would not help either. Credit though for helping him by not posting his interesting comment on the other thread.


When you were a younger person, perhaps aged 7 or 8, and went to a party. You were a bit late, they'd already played pass the parcel, all the wrapping paper was off, all had been revealed. You were a bit miffed to have missed all the fun, but decided you'd look a bit silly if you badly re-wrapped the present and then had everyone else unwrap it again. And you knew nobody would play and would wander off, leaving you on your on your own.

This is similar.


----------



## BrumJim (20 Jan 2016)

Gigi Cifarelli banned for four years due to taking PEDs.

Heard of him? Probably not. Unless you are into your Italian Jazz guitarists in a big way.


----------



## deptfordmarmoset (20 Jan 2016)

BrumJim said:


> Gigi Cifarelli banned for four years due to taking PEDs.
> 
> Heard of him? Probably not. Unless you are into your Italian Jazz guitarists in a big way.


I guess he'll be feeling Kind of Blue right now.


----------



## oldroadman (20 Jan 2016)

BrumJim said:


> Gigi Cifarelli banned for four years due to taking PEDs.
> 
> Heard of him? Probably not. Unless you are into your Italian Jazz guitarists in a big way.


A 60 year old, charging, is he mad? It can only be ego satisfaction, surely. Just simply crazy, the worry is he may have been riding for many years and getting away with it, and if he raced, stealing other people's placings/prizes.


----------



## Dogtrousers (20 Jan 2016)

oldroadman said:


> A 60 year old, charging, is he mad? It can only be ego satisfaction, surely. Just simply crazy, the worry is he may have been riding for many years and getting away with it, and if he raced, stealing other people's placings/prizes.


My first thought was that maybe he'd tested positive for something recreational, which would kind of fit the jazz musician stereotype ... but no the article definitely says "performance enhancing".

What an odd story.


----------



## ColinJ (20 Jan 2016)

Cheats don't just cheat for the money. I have even heard of people fiddling audax and sportive rides - how sad is that!

I can't quite see what satisfaction they get from doing it. Presumably they see it as competing to be the best cheat rather than the best athlete!


----------



## oldroadman (20 Jan 2016)

ColinJ said:


> Cheats don't just cheat for the money. I have even heard of people fiddling audax and sportive rides - how sad is that!
> 
> I can't quite see what satisfaction they get from doing it. Presumably they see it as competing to be the best cheat rather than the best athlete!


It's a bit sad really. On the up side, it shows what a broad spectrum of personalities the sport has (I would just rather the spectrum was not quite so broad it stretched into the gutter!). All that said it's heartening that 99%+ of people I've met are OK and just want to do the right thing.


----------



## deptfordmarmoset (20 Jan 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> My first thought was that maybe he'd tested positive for something recreational, which would kind of fit the jazz musician stereotype ... but no the article definitely says "performance enhancing".
> 
> What an odd story.


If the Musicians' Union tested for performance enhancing drugs they'd lose a fair share of members....


----------



## ColinJ (20 Jan 2016)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> If the Musicians' Union tested for performance enhancing drugs they'd lose a fair share of members....


Not so sure about _'enhancing'_ - I've seen some pretty dire drug-addled musical performances! The performers think that they are _'enhanced'_, but they are too stoned to realise how badly they are playing/singing...


----------



## Postmanhat (21 Jan 2016)

Arrowfoot said:


> Paula on the other hand is behaving rather odd and it is not doing her any good. *Her rhetoric on doping when she was competing and now is very different*. She is now giving interviews on who she feels is guilty and who is not. In essence its damaging her. People who have been with her for decades and now wondering what is going on. She is certainly badly advised about her PR approach and this is where the LA approach to PR is similar.



She did hold up that banner saying "EPO CHEATS OUT" in Edmonton 2001, while one of the Russian dopers was competing. Hardly backwards in coming forwards with her opinions on the matter.


----------



## dragon72 (21 Jan 2016)

Robert Sassone's dead. Yet another ex Cofidis rider who dies in his late 30s early 40s. Genuinely tragic on all levels.


----------



## Stonechat (23 Jan 2016)

BRITISH CYCLING CONFIRMS UKAD SANCTION FOR AMATEUR RIDER

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/a...ng-confirms-UKAD-sanction-for-amateur-rider-0


----------



## oldroadman (23 Jan 2016)

Stonechat said:


> BRITISH CYCLING CONFIRMS UKAD SANCTION FOR AMATEUR RIDER
> 
> https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/a...ng-confirms-UKAD-sanction-for-amateur-rider-0


This one is a 46 year old time triallist. Reading about the case, the not very original excuse "I left my bike and someone I am having a problem with spiked my drink". Lessons? Don't leave a bike unattended with a drink on board. Or don't let things get into your drink that should not be there. Either way, at 46 with a suspension through to 50 (banned from all sport by UKAD who do all the doping cases, not BC or CTT). Do all sports bodies recognise this? I'm thinking TLI/LVRC, the "independent" groups who don't seem to like BC? I just hope they do, maybe someone knows.


----------



## Berk on a Bike (27 Jan 2016)

The sorry tale of Alberto Gallego: Becomes a pro with Caja Rural on Jan 1st. Undergoes a test on Jan 3rd. Fails for a banned steroid. Sacked.

What a jeb end.

http://cyclingtips.com/2016/01/posi...-pro-career-is-up-in-smoke-before-first-race/


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## Flick of the Elbow (28 Jan 2016)

Berk on a Bike said:


> The sorry tale of Alberto Gallego: Becomes a pro with Caja Rural on Jan 1st. Undergoes a test on Jan 3rd. Fails for a banned steroid. Sacked.
> 
> What a jeb end.
> 
> http://cyclingtips.com/2016/01/posi...-pro-career-is-up-in-smoke-before-first-race/



He sounds like a right berk. On a bike. Oh...


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## Berk on a Bike (28 Jan 2016)

Flick of the Elbow said:


> He sounds like a right berk. On a bike. Oh...


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## Stonechat (30 Jan 2016)

*Spanish state sentenced to pay Roberto Heras €724,000 in compensation*
Former Vuelta winner to receive money in lost wages for annulled doping suspension
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/spanish-state-sentenced-to-pay-roberto-heras-724000-in-compensation/


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## Crackle (30 Jan 2016)

First potential motor in bike case, though there are no details yet

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-investigates-possible-bike-fraud-at-cyclo-cross-worlds/

Twitter is a buzzing though.


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## Flick of the Elbow (30 Jan 2016)

Crackle said:


> First potential motor in bike case, though there are no details yet
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-investigates-possible-bike-fraud-at-cyclo-cross-worlds/
> 
> Twitter is a buzzing though.


I could do with one of those.


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## Dogtrousers (30 Jan 2016)

I'm not sure that this deserves a thread all of its own.

There's an article in this week's New Scientist: Marathon mind: How brain training could smash world records (note that link won't show the whole artice).

It talks about various studies into how the brain controls the limits of endurance - be it a subconscious control to protect organs from damage, or a conscious link.

What's interesting is this bit, that investigates possible ways of cutting off the "stop" signals from the conscious brain.

_Even so, some of the world’s leading elite endurance sports teams have begun to test a more direct way to alter perception of effort: zapping the brain with electricity.

The Red Bull High Performance team, for instance, is working with neuroscientists from Weill Cornell Medical College in New York City and Pepperdine University in Malibu, California, to see how its athletes respond to transcranial direct-current stimulation (tDCS), where a weak electrical current is applied to the brain. *Team Sky, the all-conquering British cycling outfit, is also reported to be exploring the technique’s potential. *
[...]
So can brain stimulation really help elite marathon runners shave 177 seconds off the record? Holden MacRae, a sports scientist at Pepperdine who led the Red Bull project, thinks so. “Potentially, manipulating the brain via tDCS could lead to that level of performance with the right athlete in optimal conditions and on a fast course,” he says. “Ethically, though, would tDCS be any different to performance enhancing drugs?” That is a debate for another day, even if that day might arrive sooner than you think._​
Using brain manipulation to override mental safety mechanisms would seem to me to be highly unethical. Tom Simpson springs to mind.


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## deptfordmarmoset (30 Jan 2016)

So, the bike in question belonged to Driessche who didn't finish after a mechanical problem. Should have taken a spare battery....

Incidentally, I learned today that their transponders were not on the bikes (because of changes) but were somehow incorporated into the numbers on their backs.


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## User169 (30 Jan 2016)

Crackle said:


> First potential motor in bike case, though there are no details yet
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-investigates-possible-bike-fraud-at-cyclo-cross-worlds/
> 
> Twitter is a buzzing though.



Posted by @Rasmus in the cross forum: Belgian media is pretty specific...

http://sporza.be/cm/sporza/wielrennen/veldrijden/1.2559655


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## Crackle (30 Jan 2016)

Reports Van Den Driesschen's brother is suspended for EPO at the moment: A riot of a family.


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## Crackle (30 Jan 2016)

DP said:


> Posted by @Rasmus in the cross forum: Belgian media is pretty specific...
> 
> http://sporza.be/cm/sporza/wielrennen/veldrijden/1.2559655


Yep, more details seem to be emerging


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## deptfordmarmoset (30 Jan 2016)

Crackle said:


> Yep, more details seem to be emerging


And a link off your link gives a further picture...


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## Crackle (30 Jan 2016)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> And a link off your link gives a further picture...


Is that not the same or does my link take you somewhere else?


----------



## deptfordmarmoset (30 Jan 2016)

Crackle said:


> Is that not the same or does my link take you somewhere else?


Sorry, I had the two pages open at the same time. I think this is the right link - there's a complete absence of waiting for the details to emerge. Driessche sent away in shame.

https://translate.google.com/transl...za/wielrennen/veldrijden/1.2559848&edit-text=


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## deptfordmarmoset (30 Jan 2016)

Damn, it's done it again! Maybe it's google translate. There's link to a ''had everybody dimed'' story in a box on the right, and also lower down on that page.


----------



## Crackle (30 Jan 2016)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> Damn, it's done it again! Maybe it's google translate. There's link to a ''had everybody dimed'' story in a box on the right, and also lower down on that page.


Ah, I see it. It seems hasty doesn't it but perhaps they know more than is being said.


----------



## deptfordmarmoset (30 Jan 2016)

Crackle said:


> Ah, I see it. It seems hasty doesn't it but perhaps they know more than is being said.


Yes, no hesitation whatsoever from senior people in Belgian cycling.

Meanwhile, the UCI have pulled the race off their youtube channel. I wanted to look back at when she had the mechanical during the race.


----------



## rich p (30 Jan 2016)

Crikey! What a twat. 6 months penalty, if that's true, is a bit of a joke innit?


----------



## deptfordmarmoset (30 Jan 2016)

rich p said:


> Crikey! What a twat. 6 months penalty, if that's true, is a bit of a joke innit?


6 months minimum and who's going to touch her now?


----------



## rich p (30 Jan 2016)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> 6 months minimum and who's going to touch her now?


You're right!


----------



## Bobby Mhor (30 Jan 2016)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> Yes, no hesitation whatsoever from senior people in Belgian cycling.
> 
> Meanwhile, the UCI have pulled the race off their youtube channel. I wanted to look back at when she had the mechanical during the race.


I tried to watch the race after the women's race and it said not available in your country...


----------



## deptfordmarmoset (30 Jan 2016)

Bobby Mhor said:


> I tried to watch the race after the women's race and it said not available in your country...


The other UCI ones simply switch from live to start from the beginning. But I'm sure there's been lawyers advising. Shame you missed the U23 race. Richards rode it really well. Kept a high cadence on the tarmac not losing time against the other contenders but gaining time on all of them where the going was toughest, on or off the bike.


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## Crackle (30 Jan 2016)

The Guardian is carrying it now, confirming the finding of a motor.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/jan/30/hidden-motor-bike-world-cyclo-cross-championships


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## themosquitoking (30 Jan 2016)

Would she definitely know about it? Could it be someone had put it in on her behalf? Just as questions rather than trying to find excuses.


----------



## DCLane (30 Jan 2016)

Maybe buying this for my next race would be a bad idea then ...


----------



## Flick of the Elbow (31 Jan 2016)

The Grauniad report is suggesting an output of 60 to 100 W. So that could boost my own power by about 30%. I wonder how much it weighs and how long the batteries last. Curious that they launched it in a discipline that requires picking up the weight of it and running with it.


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## Crackle (31 Jan 2016)

Flick of the Elbow said:


> The Grauniad report is suggesting an output of 60 to 100 W. So that could boost my own power by about 30%. I wonder how much it weighs and how long the batteries last. Curious that they launched it in a discipline that requires picking up the weight of it and running with it.


It's odd. Not only do you have to pick the darn thing up but there's a good chance of crashing or mud and water interfering with all the gubbins, potentially leaving you unable to switch it off when you need to carry it or something. Some analysis of Van Driessche's times up the Kloppenburg are now raising eyebrows too.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (31 Jan 2016)

rich p said:


> Crikey! What a twat. 6 months penalty, if that's true, is a bit of a joke innit?





deptfordmarmoset said:


> 6 months minimum and who's going to touch her now?



As is so often the case, INRNG come to the rescue in helping us plebs understand the technicalities, including "six months is the minimum for a non-compliant bike so if someone is caught using an working motor during a race you’d expect the sanction to be significantly more": 
http://inrng.com/2016/01/the-electric-shock/#more-27494


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## User169 (31 Jan 2016)

Wasn't my bike gov....

http://sporza.be/cm/sporza/wielrennen/veldrijden/1.2560310


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## Pro Tour Punditry (31 Jan 2016)

DP said:


> Wasn't my bike gov....
> 
> http://sporza.be/cm/sporza/wielrennen/veldrijden/1.2560310



Seems plausible to me.


----------



## Crackle (31 Jan 2016)

Marmion said:


> Seems plausible to me.


Absolutely. .....


----------



## Mr Celine (31 Jan 2016)

Just been looking at the clip of her jogging back to the pits. Is she pushing the bike or is it pulling her? She seems to have her hand round her left brake lever the whole time - was the 'mechanical' the motor being stuck on?


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## Pro Tour Punditry (31 Jan 2016)

Her dad looks like a villain from the pen of Hergé


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## Berk on a Bike (1 Feb 2016)

Well, this techno-jiggery pokery is all well and good, but let's get back to some old school drugging...
Jure Kocjan has popped a red flag for EPO from a sample dating back to 2012, according to UCI's latest update. Kocjan won a stage of the tour of Utah last year and placed top five in a couple of other stages in the same race.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/jure-kocjan-provisionally-suspended-for-positive-epo-test-from-2012/


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## Dogtrousers (2 Feb 2016)

EPO? How very _artisan_. Yawn.


----------



## Berk on a Bike (2 Feb 2016)

The family friend who owns the bike in question has been identified as a former pro turned pigeon racer who owns a chip shop. Presumably he needs a motorised bike to keep up with his birds. http://road.cc/content/news/177477-mechanical-doping-family-friend-said-own-bike-identified


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## Bobby Mhor (4 Feb 2016)

Berk on a Bike said:


> The family friend who owns the bike in question has been identified as a former pro turned pigeon racer who owns a chip shop. Presumably he needs a motorised bike to keep up with his birds. http://road.cc/content/news/177477-mechanical-doping-family-friend-said-own-bike-identified


Laughed at this bit in the link you posted HERE


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## Dave Davenport (4 Feb 2016)

The family don't sound too bright, maybe they thought they were stealing racing parrots.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (5 Feb 2016)

Breaking news from INRNG in twitterland - UCI announce Eduard Vorganov A-sample positive for Meldonium, a "Hormone and Metabolic Modulators". Katusha risk collective suspension now


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (5 Feb 2016)

Katusha - "nothing to do with us guv'nor"
http://www.teamkatusha.com/news/team-katusha-statement-eduard-vorganov

Minimum 15 days suspension, maximum 45 days. Appeal only possible once suspension had begun.


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## Flying_Monkey (5 Feb 2016)

I was also interested that Michael Rogers has been forced to withdraw due to 'heart problems'. Of course, it might not have anything to do with doping at all, but it's not like he has never been under suspicion in the past...


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## User169 (5 Feb 2016)

Horner signs for Lupus to replace Kocjan who got fired when a 2012 sample was retested and found +ve for EPO.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/horner-signs-with-lupus-racing-team/


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## rich p (5 Feb 2016)

It's a mad mad mad world....


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## Flying_Monkey (6 Feb 2016)

DP said:


> Horner signs for Lupus to replace Kocjan who got fired when a 2012 sample was retested and found +ve for EPO.
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/horner-signs-with-lupus-racing-team/



Well at 44, he's only going to be getting better, isn't he?


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## Flick of the Elbow (6 Feb 2016)

Russia and doping. 

And just to underline the point, here's another one...
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news...-brezhniva-handed-four-year-doping-ban-210438


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## rich p (6 Feb 2016)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Well at 44, he's only going to be getting better, isn't he?


Davide Rebellin is still at it at 44 too.
By, 'at it', I mean cycling professionally of course...


----------



## Bobby Mhor (6 Feb 2016)

rich p said:


> Davide Rebellin is still at it at 44 too.
> By, 'at it', I mean cycling professionally of course...


He has obviously got a good motor....


I'll get my coat


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## Pro Tour Punditry (8 Feb 2016)

Dopey Rebellin an "example" for younger riders.
http://velonews.competitor.com/2016...nts-to-be-an-example-to-younger-riders_394882


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## Fnaar (8 Feb 2016)

1970s hidden motor (it's a bit noisy!!!) Vid in French, but pretty self explanatory


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## Flying_Monkey (8 Feb 2016)

Fnaar said:


> 1970s hidden motor (it's a bit noisy!!!) Vid in French, but pretty self explanatory



And that's more hidden than some of the recent dismissive claims about current tech. That was 40 years ago. Given advances in bike, battery and electric vehicle technology in that time, we are probably looking at really very subtle mechanisms now.


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## deptfordmarmoset (8 Feb 2016)

Flying_Monkey said:


> And that's more hidden than some of the recent dismissive claims about current tech. That was 40 years ago. Given advances in bike, battery and electric vehicle technology in that time, we are probably looking at really very subtle mechanisms now.


And surprisingly advanced for back then.  Ride-chargeable batteries too.


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## Berk on a Bike (10 Feb 2016)

It seems the threat of a team suspension for Katusha has been lifted after it was ruled Paolini's cocaine bust was as a result of "social" or "recreational" use. And yet, by the team's own admission he was taking it to counter the effects of sleeping pills i.e. as a stimulant.
As ever Inrng is all over it.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (10 Feb 2016)

Not much changes at the UCI, as spineless with Cookson as with previous Presidents.


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## Flying_Monkey (10 Feb 2016)

Berk on a Bike said:


> It seems the threat of a team suspension for Katusha has been lifted after it was ruled Paolini's cocaine bust was as a result of "social" or "recreational" use. And yet, by the team's own admission he was taking it to counter the effects of sleeping pills i.e. as a stimulant.



I don't think it's actually unreasonable in the case of Paolini, who clearly is a particular case that has as much to do with mental illness as anything else; it's really whether Katusha are getting away with doping more generally. The point is that the UCI can't just suspend Katusha because they suspect them and 'everyone know they are wrong 'uns'...


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (10 Feb 2016)

Ballan potentially going to Southeast
http://www.gazzetta.it/Ciclismo/10-02-2016/ballan-southeast-si-puo-ancora-fare-140620721144.shtml


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## Pro Tour Punditry (10 Feb 2016)

Flying_Monkey said:


> I don't think it's actually unreasonable in the case of Paolini, who clearly is a particular case that has as much to do with mental illness as anything else; it's really whether Katusha are getting away with doping more generally. The point is that the UCI can't just suspend Katusha because they suspect them and 'everyone know they are wrong 'uns'...


They are not following their own rules, unless I have missed something?


----------



## Crackle (10 Feb 2016)

Anyone taking bets on Katusha leaving the MPCC?


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## Flying_Monkey (10 Feb 2016)

Marmion said:


> They are not following their own rules, unless I have missed something?



They are following their own rules, because Paolini's case is not being considered as a case of 'performance enhancement', but instead 'recreational'. In fact, it's neither, but they don't have a category for drug use caused by mental distress...

I'm a bit surprised at the lack of sympathy for Paolini here, but as someone who also has suffered from mental illness myself, it's not entirely unexpected IME.


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## Crackle (10 Feb 2016)

Paolini is banned under anti-doping rules so it's a doping violation. If it wasn't he wouldn't be. Therefore this is a 2nd violation. Under the UCI rules, Katusha should be excluded. They're ducking the rule and they're either ducking it because it's a shoot rule and they now realize that or they're ducking it for more Machiavellian reasons to do with influence and conflict of interest and none of that has anything to do with Paolini needing some sympathy and help, after all, he remains banned no matter what the decision. It remains to be seen whether Katusha will suspend themselves under the voluntary MPCC code.


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## Flying_Monkey (10 Feb 2016)

Crackle said:


> Paolini is banned under anti-doping rules so it's a doping violation. If it wasn't he wouldn't be. Therefore this is a 2nd violation. Under the UCI rules, Katusha should be excluded. They're ducking the rule and they're either ducking it because it's a shoot rule and they now realize that or they're ducking it for more Machiavellian reasons to do with influence and conflict of interest and none of that has anything to do with Paolini needing some sympathy and help, after all, he remains banned no matter what the decision. It remains to be seen whether Katusha will suspend themselves under the voluntary MPCC code.



I think you are missing some of the facts. The decision about Paolini's 'recereational' use was made by the Disciplinary Commission. This is a separate body from the Anti-Doping Tribunal, which actually has yet to rule on Paolini's case. In addition, in most legal systems, both the letter and the spirit of the law are considered. Sports tribunals are no exception. In general, recreational use is treated more sympathetically even when it is technically a violation of the rules - look at the case of Ross Rebagliati, the Olympic gold-medal snowboarder who was done for smoking dope, but then later reinstated.

This is is all irrespective of Makarov and his potential conflict-of-interest. That no doubt exists, but the fact remains that the Paolini case is not the ammunition Katusha's enemies, or clean sport advocates, are looking for.


----------



## Crackle (10 Feb 2016)

Flying_Monkey said:


> I think you are missing some of the facts. The decision about Paolini's 'recereational' use was made by the Disciplinary Commission. This is a separate body from the Anti-Doping Tribunal, which actually has yet to rule on Paolini's case. In addition, in most legal systems, both the letter and the spirit of the law are considered. Sports tribunals are no exception. In general, recreational use is treated more sympathetically even when it is technically a violation of the rules - look at the case of Ross Rebagliati, the Olympic gold-medal snowboarder who was done for smoking dope, but then later reinstated.
> 
> This is is all irrespective of Makarov and his potential conflict-of-interest. That no doubt exists, but the fact remains that the Paolini case is not the ammunition Katusha's enemies, or clean sport advocates, are looking for.


He's still provisionally suspended under anti-doping rules whether they've ruled or not. And the discussion is around that recreational ruling, which most are arguing should not be the case, given how and why he was using it. It also seems his use was known about, so, possibly, the team missed an opportunity to intervene, who knows. The UCI could have suspended them and then re-instated them after appeal. They haven't and seem to be ducking their own rule under the cover of this recreational use finding, which is the arguable bit.


----------



## Flying_Monkey (10 Feb 2016)

Crackle said:


> The UCI could have suspended them and then re-instated them after appeal. They haven't and seem to be ducking their own rule under the cover of this recreational use finding, which is the arguable bit.



Your problem is that you seem to be asking the UCI to act over the heads of its own separate committees. if it did that, it would be corrupt and there would an outcry. 'The UCI' is not acting here, its Disciplinary Committee and Tribunal are acting, separately, as they must. And, as I have already shown, there is nothing unusual about a recreational finding.


----------



## Crackle (10 Feb 2016)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Your problem is that you seem to be asking the UCI to act over the heads of its own separate committees. if it did that, it would be corrupt and there would an outcry. 'The UCI' is not acting here, its Disciplinary Committee and Tribunal are acting, separately, as they must. And, as I have already shown, there is nothing unusual about a recreational finding.


It's not about the procedure and I'm not asking anything over the rule in place. You seriously think that a finding of recreational use is appropriate. This wasn't an out of competition test, he was in the middle of a race, not just a race but the Tour.

And here's the rule again which seems pretty clear but apparently not.

_*7.12.1 *If two Riders and/or other Persons within a Team registered with the UCI are notified within a twelve-month period of an Adverse Analytical Finding for a Prohibited Method or a Prohibited Substance that is not a Specified Substance, or receive notice of an asserted anti-doping rule violation arising from an Adverse Passport Finding or Atypical Passport Finding after a review under Article 7.5 or other asserted anti-doping rule violation as per Articles 2.5, 2.6, 2.7, 2.8, 2.9 or 2.10, t*he Team shall be suspended from participation in any International Even*t for a period determined by the President of the UCI Disciplinary Commission or a member of the Disciplinary Commission, taking into account all the circumstances of the case._


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (10 Feb 2016)

Yep, it's writ clear. UCI have failed to act on their rules. A new dawn, eh?


----------



## Flying_Monkey (11 Feb 2016)

Nail 'em up, eh?


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (11 Feb 2016)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Nail 'em up, eh?


Whether the rules are correct or not is not being debated*, what is clear is that they are not following their current rules. The fact that their rules are not fit for purpose is a whole different debate. A governing body which can decide which of its own rules it follows is not a fit governing body and remains open to corruption and external influence; which is what the "new dawn" promised to change (did it? I'm not sure anymore...) 

*and I agree with your position re Paolini


----------



## Flying_Monkey (11 Feb 2016)

My other point (beyond Paolini) is that law is more than what is written. It always is. Everyone knows this. People who demand completely inflexible adherence to the 'letter of the law' inevitably get into knots eventually because laws cannot encompass every possibility or anticipate evry situation.


----------



## User169 (11 Feb 2016)

This was the third notification in a 12 month period. Whilst Paolini might be due some sympathy, that's more a question of determining the sanction, rather than a question of whether or not the conditions of 7.12.1 are met.


----------



## Flying_Monkey (11 Feb 2016)

DP said:


> This was the third notification in a 12 month period.



If that was clearly the case, then I would agree. But it's not clear that it is at all and certainly no-one was arguing that at the Disciplinary Committee level. I appreciate that this is exactly how dirty teams wriggle out of things, and Katusha are dirty as dirty can be, but there's going to have to be clear-cut and unequivocal evidence before they are, so that there is no opportunity for interpretation. 

Further, as Inner Ring also notes, if the UCI did suspend Katusha on grounds that are anything but open and shut, it could be open by external legal challenge, because collective sanctions are not part of the the WADA Code.


----------



## smutchin (11 Feb 2016)

Marmion said:


> what is clear is that they are not following their current rules



I don't think that is at all clear. There are protocols to follow and, as FM says, they have to make sure the ground they are on is very firm before taking such drastic action as suspending a WT team.

The worst case scenario would be a knee-jerk descision that leads to the same kind of arbitration debacle we had the last time they tried to revoke Katusha's licence.


----------



## User169 (11 Feb 2016)

Flying_Monkey said:


> If that was clearly the case, then I would agree. But it's not clear that it is at all and certainly no-one was arguing that at the Disciplinary Committee level. I appreciate that this is exactly how dirty teams wriggle out of things, and Katusha are dirty as dirty can be, but there's going to have to be clear-cut and unequivocal evidence before they are, so that there is no opportunity for interpretation.
> 
> Further, as Inner Ring also notes, if the UCI did suspend Katusha on grounds that are anything but open and shut, it could be open by external legal challenge, because collective sanctions are not part of the the WADA Code.



Yes, I suspect the last bit is the reality.


----------



## Berk on a Bike (11 Feb 2016)

So David Millar has taken a role mentoring young British riders. The reaction on social media has been interesting. Is it the case that there really is no bigger prude than a reformed whore?
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/david-millar-takes-on-mentor-role-at-british-cycling/


----------



## Flick of the Elbow (12 Feb 2016)

Millar is a fine choice for the role. Intelligent, articulate, tactically astute and with all the top level racing experience that you could wish for in the role. If British Cycling had the current set up back in his day I'm very confident he wouldn't have made the mistake that he did.


----------



## Flying_Monkey (12 Feb 2016)

Francesco Reda has been banned for 8 years for taking EPO at the Italian Championship, where he was a very surprising 2nd last year. This guy seems to be another one of those utterly shameless cheating Italian Pros: he is the same guy who was thrown out of the Ras for taking a tow, and he's narrowly escaped a ban before because he agreed to testify on drugs issues despite having point-black refused to take tests...

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/francesco-reda-suspended-for-eight-years-for-epo-positive/


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## Crackle (23 Feb 2016)

Katusha leave MPCC. Didn't see that coming.


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## SWSteve (23 Feb 2016)

Much easier than missing WT races, for which they would get special dispensation from the UCI


----------



## Flying_Monkey (24 Feb 2016)

Orica-GreenEdge have also announced that they are leaving the MPCC. Now that was rather more unexpected. They say it's because it's basically unnecessary now. Is there are a future for the MPCC?


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (25 Feb 2016)

1000ml of fluid intake prior to doping blood draw can drop OFF-score and decrease doping positives from 40 to 10%:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/sms.12438/abstract?campaign=woletoc


----------



## oldroadman (26 Feb 2016)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Orica-GreenEdge have also announced that they are leaving the MPCC. Now that was rather more unexpected. They say it's because it's basically unnecessary now. Is there are a future for the MPCC?


No - it was and always has been a bit of a PR thing. I had to smile at the comments about the UCI and not applying the rules to the last letter (which is why we have tribunals and judges, to interpret the letter of the law). For REALLY interesting views on what is and is not OK, try FIFA!


----------



## smutchin (28 Feb 2016)

I never had any faith in the MPCC. Probably because I remember the post-Festina declaration that riders made ahead of the 1999 "Tour of Renewal".

It's worth noting who signed up to the MPCC and, perhaps more tellingly, who didn't...


----------



## rich p (28 Feb 2016)

Can anyone with a better memory than me remind if GvA is trustworthy? Wasn't there a doping story about him last year or so?
I could google, I know!!


----------



## Crackle (28 Feb 2016)

rich p said:


> Can anyone with a better memory than me remind if GvA is trustworthy? Wasn't there a doping story about him last year or so?
> I could google, I know!!


lazy git.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bel...ts-two-year-doping-ban-for-greg-van-avermaet/

Cortisone and links to dodgy doctors


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## ColinJ (28 Feb 2016)

rich p said:


> Can anyone with a better memory than me remind if GvA is trustworthy? Wasn't there a doping story about him last year or so?
> I could google, I know!!


It would have taken less time to Google it ... Accused, 2 year ban asked for, case dismissed!

PS Too slow - distracted by phone call mid-post.


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## rich p (28 Feb 2016)

Hmmm, one of those 'no smoke without fire' or 'no case to answer' jobbies.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (28 Feb 2016)

rich p said:


> Hmmm, one of those 'no smoke without fire' or 'no case to answer' jobbies.


They took a sample of his jobbies? Eugh.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (4 Mar 2016)

Doping git, Alessandro Ballan, has announced his retirement.

I wonder which dodgy team he will appear at in a managerial/helping out capacity?


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## CaadX (4 Mar 2016)

Marmion said:


> Doping git, Alessandro Ballan, has announced his retirement.
> 
> I wonder which dodgy team he will appear at in a managerial/helping out capacity?


Civil Service ?


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## Pro Tour Punditry (7 Mar 2016)

According to Belgian media, Femke Van den Driessche is facing a lifetime ban and 50,000 Euro fine when she appears in Aigle next week:
http://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20160306_02168604

I can see this one dragging on for a while


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## Pro Tour Punditry (7 Mar 2016)

Perhaps you need to understand this - this part of the forum is for discussing pro cycling, the clue is in the title. 

I'm sure there are other forums more suited to your interests.


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## rich p (7 Mar 2016)

Marmion said:


> Perhaps you need to understand this - this part of the forum is for discussing pro cycling, the clue is in the title.
> 
> I'm sure there are other forums more suited to your interests.


True 
www.loadofoldcobblers.com springs to mind


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## Moderators (7 Mar 2016)

MOD NOTE:
Some Off Topic posts and references have been Deleted.

Please remember that this thread is about doping in professional cycling.

Thank you.


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## blackgoff (8 Mar 2016)

Where there is money, in any area of life, in cycling in this instance, their'll always be cheating, whether in amateur avenues or professional' of which they're now connected via the UCI.

I actually feel sorry for pros as some of them most be clean yet we fans doubt them and when you're putting not just your body but alot more on the line then they must hate the distrust.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (10 Mar 2016)

blackgoff said:


> Where there is money...whether in amateur


Err, amateur? Money?


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## Pro Tour Punditry (11 Mar 2016)

Although this article is primarily about Sharapova, I have stuck it in this thread as I am intrigued by Wiggins comments.
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/bl...a-aura-blemish-doubts-tennis?CMP=share_btn_tw


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## psmiffy (11 Mar 2016)

On WADA's 2017 Banned list???????



> *Wada's 2016 watch list?*
> *Stimulants*
> 
> Bupropion - anti-depressant
> ...



So I personally don't find Wiggens comment



> “British Cycling are really on the ball – Richard Freeman, the doctor – in terms of things that have been changed, saying: ‘Please don’t take this any more.’”



surprising as 50% are things that "people" use if not every day then regularly

Notwithstanding that If you were a athlete in a testing regime then I would of thought it would be prudent that you would be on top of it


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## oldroadman (11 Mar 2016)

psmiffy said:


> On WADA's 2017 Banned list???????
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Zero excuse for a highly paid athlete in any sport to be without medical support and for them not to keep up with the latest WADA rules. Not to do that might result in professional suicide. As for a lady tennis players excuse, well if you have been in bike racing all your life there is almost no excuse that has not been tried by the stupid and plain cheaters. None work, If it's in your body, who is responsible?


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## Pro Tour Punditry (2 Apr 2016)

Just seen on twitter that the Sunday Times are running a story from some doctor claiming he has helped over 150 UK athletes dope, including "Tour de France" cyclists...a quick online check reveals him to be Mark Bonar, who the Daily Mail (sorry) revealed "kept dying patient in the dark about her terminal cancer and told her she'd have to wait for NHS treatment so he could keep charging her for unconventional nutrition therapy" in December of last year. He sounds an utter daffodil.

edit - further enquiry online indicates he is a daffodil of the highest order. And more than a little "Walter Mitty"


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## rich p (3 Apr 2016)

Marmion said:


> Just seen on twitter that the Sunday Times are running a story from some doctor claiming he has helped over 150 UK athletes dope, including "Tour de France" cyclists...a quick online check reveals him to be Mark Bonar, who the Daily Mail (sorry) revealed "kept dying patient in the dark about her terminal cancer and told her she'd have to wait for NHS treatment so he could keep charging her for unconventional nutrition therapy" in December of last year. He sounds an utter daffodil.
> 
> edit - further enquiry online indicates he is a daffodil of the highest order. And more than a little "Walter Mitty"


I'm still waiting for the Fuentes names. Unless he has evidence of names I'm not sure we'll get these ones.


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## SWSteve (3 Apr 2016)

I don't know why he was treating footballers, there is no need to dope in football as its a skill game


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## mjr (3 Apr 2016)

ItsSteveLovell said:


> I don't know why he was treating footballers, there is no need to dope in football as its a skill game


Yeah, strength, speed and stamina don't help at all(!)

Also, he _says _ he was treating them, yet no sportspeople were identified to UK ADA, which is why they passed it to the General Medical Council: they had no jurisdiction.


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## Booyaa (3 Apr 2016)

ItsSteveLovell said:


> I don't know why he was treating footballers, there is no need to dope in football as its a skill game


But if you can continue to run at full tilt for the full 90+ minutes without losing your skill level that is invaluable. Looks at the Barcelona teams that won European Cups, constant pressing for the full games that seemed almost impossible. Yes the players are all highly skilled but being able to keep on it for the full game is better than doing it for just 70 minutes and hanging on to the game from there.


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## SWSteve (3 Apr 2016)

Booyaa said:


> But if you can continue to run at full tilt for the full 90+ minutes without losing your skill level that is invaluable. Looks at the Barcelona teams that won European Cups, constant pressing for the full games that seemed almost impossible. Yes the players are all highly skilled but being able to keep on it for the full game is better than doing it for just 70 minutes and hanging on to the game from there.



But with the really tight doping controls footballers are under they would have been found! Next you'll be saying that tennis players are at it as well


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## Pro Tour Punditry (3 Apr 2016)

A bit more on the Dr "Mitty" story:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...of-drug-cheat-claims-against-150-sport-stars/


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## Pro Tour Punditry (12 Apr 2016)

It's been a while since the UCI list has been mentioned, however they have recently updated the provisional suspension list, and there's two Continental riders listed - Adria Mobil's Kristjan Fayt for EPO and Mattia Gavazzi for cocaine (again), having previously been suspended in 2010 - he made his comeback in the Tour de San Luis in 2013
http://www.uci.ch/mm/Document/News/CleanSport/17/32/53/20160411ProvisionalSuspensionEN_English.pdf


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## rich p (12 Apr 2016)

Marmion said:


> It's been a while since the UCI list has been mentioned, however they have recently updated the provisional suspension list, and there's two Continental riders listed - Adria Mobil's Kristjan Fayt for EPO and Mattia Gavazzi for cocaine (again), having previously been suspended in 2010 - he made his comeback in the Tour de San Luis in 2013
> http://www.uci.ch/mm/Document/News/CleanSport/17/32/53/20160411ProvisionalSuspensionEN_English.pdf


Gavazzi must really love coke! That's the third time including a bust as an amateur.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (12 Apr 2016)

rich p said:


> Gavazzi must really love coke! That's the third time including a bust as an amateur.


Hadn't realised he'd been done as a amateur as well. Some people'll never learn.


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## themosquitoking (12 Apr 2016)

rich p said:


> Gavazzi must really love coke! That's the third time including a bust as an amateur.


I'm led to believe that it is very moreish.


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## rich p (12 Apr 2016)

themosquitoking said:


> moreish


Nah, that's Iago...


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## rich p (12 Apr 2016)

atcherly, it was the eponymous hero...


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## Pro Tour Punditry (17 Apr 2016)

More on mechanical doping - motors and magnetic induction wheels
http://www.corriere.it/sport/16_apr...co-080a285a-045c-11e6-9af5-d262a7a5f049.shtml


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## deptfordmarmoset (17 Apr 2016)

Marmion said:


> More on mechanical doping - motors and magnetic induction wheels
> http://www.corriere.it/sport/16_apr...co-080a285a-045c-11e6-9af5-d262a7a5f049.shtml


Which kind of begs some questions about the use of thermal imaging cameras by the UCI. Or simply one question: why not?


----------



## Flying_Monkey (17 Apr 2016)

The TV programme referred to in that report will be broadcast next week on Italian TV. They claim to have identiified 8 different riders using motors in these races, and some of them using newer, more advanced motors in wheels... expect the shoot to hit the fan.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mec...che-and-coppi-e-bartali-claims-investigation/


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## Viking (17 Apr 2016)

I guess some of these images could be dodgy DI2 batteries but I'll wait for the program / proof before pushing that any further.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (17 Apr 2016)

Flying_Monkey said:


> The TV programme referred to in that report will be broadcast next week on Italian TV. They claim to have identiified 8 different riders using motors in these races, and some of them using newer, more advanced motors in wheels... expect the shoot to hit the fan.
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mec...che-and-coppi-e-bartali-claims-investigation/





Viking said:


> I guess some of these images could be dodgy DI2 batteries but I'll wait for the program / proof before pushing that any further.



Here's a screenshot (taken from INRNG twitter) of Istvan Varjas, the Hungarian inventor, showing how small the motor can be


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## Crackle (17 Apr 2016)

Let's see what the program reveals but I'm thinking bullshit so far.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (17 Apr 2016)

Viking said:


> I guess some of these images could be dodgy DI2 batteries but I'll wait for the program / proof before pushing that any further.





Crackle said:


> Let's see what the program reveals but I'm thinking bullshit so far.



Here you go, make your mind up time, part 1 and 2:
http://cyclinghub.tv/post.php?id=1515
http://cyclinghub.tv/post.php?id=1516


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## Flying_Monkey (17 Apr 2016)

Crackle said:


> Let's see what the program reveals but I'm thinking bullshit so far.



Why? We know these systems exist. They've already been discovered in one case on the fringes. If the UCI are not yet testing bikes in ways that would discover them, then there will undoubtedly be people who are using them. Otherwise, what are saying is that you don't believe that anyone cheats. All the evidence points in the other direction.


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## Flying_Monkey (17 Apr 2016)

Marmion said:


> Here you go, make your mind up time, part 1 and 2:
> http://cyclinghub.tv/post.php?id=1515
> http://cyclinghub.tv/post.php?id=1516



This is a different program though - an earlier, French investigation, prior to these new allegations.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (17 Apr 2016)

Flying_Monkey said:


> This is a different program though - an earlier, French investigation, prior to these new allegations.


Ah right, didn't realise that, cheers


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## Crackle (17 Apr 2016)

Marmion said:


> Here you go, make your mind up time, part 1 and 2:
> http://cyclinghub.tv/post.php?id=1515
> http://cyclinghub.tv/post.php?id=1516


Well someone who speaks French can tell me if there was anything substantial in that but I'm calling complete farking bullshit so far. Not on the technology existing but on it being used in the pro peloton. Nothing new so far. That does not mean to say I think it might not be used, I just don't think I've seen anything that proves it has been. Tin foil hat stuff. Good publicity for Stephane though.


----------



## Flying_Monkey (17 Apr 2016)

Flying_Monkey said:


> This is a different program though - an earlier, French investigation, prior to these new allegations.



Actually, I'm wrong - that is the right program. It is a French show that was reported on in an Italian paper. They seem to think Froome is in on it...


----------



## oldroadman (17 Apr 2016)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Actually, I'm wrong - that is the right program. It is a French show that was reported on in an Italian paper. They seem to think Froome is in on it...


The French and Italian press always want to find a reason why "their" riders are getting beaten. Apart from him being quite good.. Loser mentality, "I didn't win therefore it's someone else's fault/they must be cheating". Quite funny to hear that from an Italian paper.


----------



## Viking (17 Apr 2016)

I still don't know. I'm sure that if it works and it is available then it will be used. How to stop it in practical terms with around 200 starters and bike changes during events is another matter. 

I'm sure the bike industry wouldn't like any suggestions such as putting the bikes through a giant EMP device to fry any electronics (bye bye Di2) or mandating shallow rim clinchers to reduce the space available for hidden magnets, especially following on from the suspension of the disc brakes trial.


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## psmiffy (17 Apr 2016)

The little motors are proven technology - but the neodymium magnets in the rims would seem to be as @Crackle infers BS - the only thing I know about neodymium magnets is that they are the most powerful magnets that are presently available - a) in a disc are they not orientated in the wrong direction? b) if they are not in the wrong orientation would having a large diameter powerful magnet rotating at speed cause the fancy doohickey gear that the pros use for changing gear to throw a wobbley? maybe someone with a better understanding of rare earth magnets can provide a logical explanation


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## Strathlubnaig (17 Apr 2016)

oldroadman said:


> The French and Italian press always want to find a reason why "their" riders are getting beaten. Apart from him being quite good.. Loser mentality, "I didn't win therefore it's someone else's fault/they must be cheating". Quite funny to hear that from an Italian paper.


Froome has a pretty high cadence on the climbs.


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## oldroadman (17 Apr 2016)

Strathlubnaig said:


> Froome has a pretty high cadence on the climbs.


So he does. It's his style. So what is being inferred? Others have a slow cadence and flog along, Froome just looks all over the bike but it works.


----------



## Strathlubnaig (17 Apr 2016)

oldroadman said:


> So he does. It's his style. So what is being inferred? Others have a slow cadence and flog along, Froome just looks all over the bike but it works.


the newspaper just said the motor suits a rider with a high cadence style, and buddy above said Froome was mentioned, so I was going with the flow, sorry to upset you.


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## deptfordmarmoset (17 Apr 2016)

oldroadman said:


> So he does. It's his style. So what is being inferred? Others have a slow cadence and flog along, Froome just looks all over the bike but it works.


Indirectly, the inference seems to be that the mechanical doping motor works best with a high cadence. Man cycles with unusually high cadence. But also, somewhere in the background, he doesn't quite look like a cyclist so he must be cheating....

EDIT: Ah, Strathers got the high cadence thing in before me.


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## oldroadman (18 Apr 2016)

Strathlubnaig said:


> the newspaper just said the motor suits a rider with a high cadence style, and buddy above said Froome was mentioned, so I was going with the flow, sorry to upset you.


No upset, just interested how some journos (oddly enough usually from countries who have a lower success rate than they have been used to -welcome to the new world) get from high cadence to mechanical cheating (which is a term I prefer to doping, as there are no chemicals ingested). It's still cheating and people caught should get at least the 4 years same as for doping, plus a huge fine, plus the team investigated, because somewhere, someone fitted the thing.


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## oldroadman (18 Apr 2016)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> Indirectly, the inference seems to be that the mechanical doping motor works best with a high cadence. Man cycles with unusually high cadence. But also, somewhere in the background, he doesn't quite look like a cyclist so he must be cheating....
> 
> EDIT: Ah, Strathers got the high cadence thing in before me.


May not look like a bike rider, but a very effective one all the same. I've seen some odd styles over the years, but in a pro peloton, this is one of the oddest. Imagine what would happen if he had a classic style? Might even be accepted by the jealous journos!


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## smutchin (20 Apr 2016)

Just saw @ItsSteveLovell's post in the punditry thread so had to look up the reasons for Henao's withdrawal from Flèche Wallonne...

http://www.teamsky.com/teamsky/home/article/77343#zG6Fyrsvh7PeBKUA.97

Hmmm. So is this a result of new findings or just a follow-up from last year's investigation into blood passport irregularities? Either way, it doesn't look good. On the plus side, the team are apparently being open about the reasons for his withdrawal rather than churning out the usual vague stories of 'illness'.

I'm not inclined to be suspicious of Henao but I am slightly sceptical of the notion of 'altitude natives' having different physiology. Although it seems to be a well-documented phenomenon, so maybe it's a plausible explanation after all:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-altitude_adaptation_in_humans#Physiological_basis


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## Flying_Monkey (20 Apr 2016)

The thing is that this is a biological passport issue. The biological passport is unique to each rider and constitutes the baseline for judging significant departures from that. So it should already account for the fact that Henao is an 'altitude native' and that would be included in his baseline figures (say for example, an imaginary rider who had natural haemocrit levels of 45-50 as opposed to most people's 40-45 - the idea is that they wouldn't be so suspicious if their levels were found in testing to be 51, whereas the rider with a baseline 40-45 would be - it's more complex than that, but just to illustrate how it should work). We don't know exactly how Henao's results differ from his baseline figures yet.


----------



## Crackle (20 Apr 2016)

smutchin said:


> Just saw @ItsSteveLovell's post in the punditry thread so had to look up the reasons for Henao's withdrawal from Flèche Wallonne...
> 
> http://www.teamsky.com/teamsky/home/article/77343#zG6Fyrsvh7PeBKUA.97
> 
> ...


It doesn't particularly sound good, if they already have the previous Sky tests and now want more. I did note Henao was going well this year and I can't help reading Sky's statement as a more open and sophisticated version of the usual denial. But then my default position is cynical these days so I guess I'll hold my further thoughts and wait and see.


----------



## smutchin (20 Apr 2016)

Flying_Monkey said:


> We don't know exactly how Henao's results differ from his baseline figures yet.



Only that it's enough of a variation to arouse suspicion. 

The question is whether the explanation for that variation is plausible.


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## fimm (20 Apr 2016)

From that Wikipedia article:
"._..the Andean highlanders, ... show different pattern of haemoglobin adaptation. Their haemoglobin concentration is higher compared to those of lowlander population, which also happens to normal people moving to high altitude. When they spend some weeks in the lowland their heamoglobin drops to average of other people. This shows only temporary and reversible acclimatisation. However, in contrast to lowland people, they do have increased oxygen level in their haemoglobin, that is, more oxygen per blood volume than other people. This confers an ability to carry more oxygen in each red blood cell, making a more effective transport of oxygen in their body..._"
I have no idea 1) if this is correct (it being Wikipedia) and 2) exactly how this fits with the blood passport stuff.


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## Flying_Monkey (20 Apr 2016)

fimm said:


> I have no idea 1) if this is correct (it being Wikipedia) and 2) exactly how this fits with the blood passport stuff.



If Henao's baseline data for the biological passport was captured at low altitude after temporary 'acclimitisation', it might well be that his 'normal' figures are actually different from his baseline on a regular basis. But I though this is why Sky did all the testing before, and that this would have been resolved. If this is something different, Henao may not be able to fall back on the 'altitude native' reason. We shall see.


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## fimm (20 Apr 2016)

From the Sky statement:
"_Sergio has this week been contacted by the CADF with a request for more information with regards to readings on his Athlete Blood Passport between August 2011 to June 2015. *These include the same readings which prompted us to undertake further research in 2014*. Given the team had drawn the attention of anti-doping authorities to the issue at the time, this does not come as a surprise....We recognise why the CADF have raised this issue as it is one we have obviously raised ourselves. *Thus far Sergio's data has been anonymous to the CADF experts*....Sergio has not failed a drug test and the CADF process is conducted confidentially._ " (emphasis mine)
If I understand that correctly, CADF don't know who the athlete is when they start asking questions about unusual looking data. Sky already know that that set of data looks unusual/suspicious; they believe the tests etc that they had done explain why the data is as it is.


----------



## rich p (20 Apr 2016)

Doesn't Quintana live at altitude too? There have been others too, IIRC, so I don't really understand why Henao's case is being tereated as an unknown.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (20 Apr 2016)

I sleep in an upstairs bedroom. I've never noticed any sporting advantage.


----------



## smutchin (21 Apr 2016)

Marmion said:


> I sleep in an upstairs bedroom. I've never noticed any sporting advantage.



Nor has Mrs Marmion.


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## Hont (21 Apr 2016)

Crackle said:


> I did note Henao was going well this year


He is, but that's not actually relevant to the issue, as the passport data in question is not from this year.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (21 Apr 2016)

Di Luca, unrepentant as ever
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/di-luca-reveals-details-of-his-doping-in-hard-hitting-autobiography/


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## ColinJ (21 Apr 2016)

Marmion said:


> Di Luca, unrepentant as ever
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/di-luca-reveals-details-of-his-doping-in-hard-hitting-autobiography/
> 
> View attachment 125688


That is actually quite refreshing - "_Yes, I was a lying cheat, so what!_" rather than (for example) Valverde's "_All I want to do is look to the future. People can judge whether I’m innocent or not. I’m relaxed in my mind, and I’m happy. I worked really hard to come back to the top level_".


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## Flying_Monkey (22 Apr 2016)

ColinJ said:


> That is actually quite refreshing - "_Yes, I was a lying cheat, so what!_" rather than (for example) Valverde's "_All I want to do is look to the future. People can judge whether I’m innocent or not. I’m relaxed in my mind, and I’m happy. I worked really hard to come back to the top level_".



It's just the difference between a cheat who has retired and a cheat who is still riding.


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## ColinJ (22 Apr 2016)

Flying_Monkey said:


> It's just the difference between a cheat who has retired and a cheat who is still riding.


Possibly true!


----------



## Crackle (22 Apr 2016)

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/team-sky-were-not-responsible-for-publishing-henao-report/

Sky are distancing themselves a little bit and there's a bit more in there about the process, which again, casts this in a slightly pessimistic light. Especially that the independent study conducted may not have drawn enough conclusions to actually support Henao's case.


----------



## Hont (22 Apr 2016)

ColinJ said:


> That is actually quite refreshing - "


I agree that it is compared to Valverde, but he doped to win, to get rich and famous and is not showing any remorse. He's a cheating c***.


----------



## smutchin (22 Apr 2016)

The real problem with Di Luca's attitude is that it reinforces the idea that they were all at it, and that they're all still at it. While I'm not naive enough to think the sport is completely clean now, Di Luca's comments damage the efforts made by those who are genuinely determined to fix cycling's image problem.


----------



## ColinJ (22 Apr 2016)

I'm not saying that DL is a fine fellow, but I think that his revealing comments help to remind people what happens if the problem is not taken seriously. Some people are still in denial about doping in sport - just look at the current mess in athletics.

He certainly wouldn't be on my Christmas card list.

(Actually, I don't send Christmas cards ... Let's just say that I wouldn't ride with him if he were turn up for one of my forum rides! )


----------



## rich p (29 Apr 2016)

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/simon-yates-returns-positive-doping-test/
Let's hope this is as anodyne as Orica say it is.


----------



## Berk on a Bike (29 Apr 2016)

rich p said:


> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/simon-yates-returns-positive-doping-test/
> Let's hope this is as anodyne as Orica say it is.


Just seen it too. Been a shít week for British cycling.


----------



## Big Dave laaa (29 Apr 2016)

Doctor failed to apply for TUE apparently. Seems a bit of a big mistake to make if that's the case. Terbutaline doesn't really give enough of a performance kick to risk it. So hoping this can be cleared up.


----------



## 400bhp (29 Apr 2016)

Really gutted for Yates. One of my favourite riders


----------



## PaulB (29 Apr 2016)

There's a lot of TUEs floating around, aren't there? It's actually extraordinary how many pro cyclists have asthma when you think about it. It's a very high percentage; far higher than that in the rest of the population. This allows their doctors to issue them with prescriptions for broncho-dilators which of course eases their asthma. 

Cynical, me?


----------



## ColinJ (29 Apr 2016)

OTOH pro riders are out there in all sorts of crappy weather giving themselves a real hammering so it would be understandable if their lungs objected from time to time. The air quality in some countries is also a problem - races in China for instance.

It could be that most of us have a touch of asthma from time to time but we don't have team doctors monitoring us all the time to pick up on it. I often struggle to breathe properly until well warmed up.

Does a rider's asthma need to be life-threatening before a TUE can be given, or is a slight problem enough?


----------



## DogTired (29 Apr 2016)

ColinJ said:


> OTOH pro riders are out there in all sorts of crappy weather giving themselves a real hammering so it would be understandable if their lungs objected from time to time. The air quality in some countries is also a problem - races in China for instance.
> 
> It could be that most of us have a touch of asthma from time to time but we don't have team doctors monitoring us all the time to pick up on it. I often struggle to breathe properly until well warmed up.
> 
> Does a rider's asthma need to be life-threatening before a TUE can be given, or is a slight problem enough?



The Boots web-site says the stuff below and Asthma UK reckons 1 in 11 in the UK have some degree of asthma. So personally, despite literally seconds of research I am none the wiser. Genuine need or marginal gain?

(I'm sure I once saw a list of TUEs per athlete but couldnt find it. Might've been on the TdF website...)

_*Exercise-induced asthma*
Exercise-induced asthma is a type of asthma triggered by exercise or physical exertion. Many people with asthma experience some degree of symptoms with exercise. However, there are many people without asthma, including Olympic athletes, who develop symptoms only during exercise.

With exercise-induced asthma, airway narrowing peaks five to 20 minutes after exercise begins, making it difficult to catch your breath. You may have symptoms of an asthma attack with wheezing and coughing. Your doctor can tell you if you need use an asthma inhaler (bronchodilator) before exercise to prevent these uncomfortable asthma symptoms._


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## ColinJ (29 Apr 2016)

My consultant sent me for a lung function test after I complained of breathing problems when cycling. Nothing showed up but doing a test in warm hospital conditions isn't the same as riding hard up a climb and breathing in cold, damp air!

Like PaulB, I am a bit cynical about whether ALL of the TUEs are justified, but I bet that many are.


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## DogTired (29 Apr 2016)

ColinJ said:


> My consultant sent me for a lung function test after I complained of breathing problems when cycling. Nothing showed up but doing a test in warm hospital conditions isn't the same as riding hard up a climb and breathing in cold, damp air!
> 
> Like PaulB, I am a bit cynical about whether ALL of the TUEs are justified, but I bet that many are.



Go to admit, I'd never heard of exercise induced asthma before but the following link is interesting - describes what you mention about a sensitivity to temperature changes. No idea if its more of a problem with pros with body fat around 5%. I'm built like a seal addicted to kebabs so suffer no such problem...

http://www.webmd.com/asthma/features/athletes-guide-exercise-induced-asthma


----------



## Firestorm (29 Apr 2016)

I used to have to put in the equivalent of A the every seaon for my Asthma inhaler (salbutomol) and this was just to compete in Athletics Southern League div 7 !
The year they introduced it our club secretary said she was surprised at the amount of applications she had to make.
I was never tested, but one official did comment about it when he saw my inhaler in my spike bag.


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## Beebo (29 Apr 2016)

I developed exercise induced asthma in my early 30's. The final straw was running a marathon on a very cold foggy day, the cold damp air did me in, and my lungs have never recovered. I now take clenil modulite 250 mcg twice daily, which keeps it at bay.


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## deptfordmarmoset (29 Apr 2016)

DogTired said:


> The Boots web-site says the stuff below and Asthma UK reckons 1 in 11 in the UK have some degree of asthma. So personally, despite literally seconds of research I am none the wiser. Genuine need or marginal gain?
> 
> (I'm sure I once saw a list of TUEs per athlete but couldnt find it. Might've been on the TdF website...)
> 
> ...


On exercise-induced asthma (Guardian):

Asthma symptoms are common in high-level athletes - one study showed that 70% of British top level swimmers and around a third of Team Sky were registered asthmatics - but many register symptoms of what is termed “exercise-induced asthma”, brought on by rapid, heavy breathing combined with external factors such as chlorine in the swimming environment and cold air.​Those are very high percentages!

I don't think that Orica-Greenedge's statement is anywhere near enough. The doctor needs to come forward publicly and give information (with Yates' permission because of confidentiality) on when Yates was diagnosed as asthmatic and when symptoms were first noted. O-G are 3rd parties in this and an upfront mea culpa from the doctor will help Yates clear his name.


----------



## Dogtrousers (29 Apr 2016)

What precedents are there for this? Yeah, I know about LA and his retrospective TUE for cortisone, but _ordinary _precedents where the offered explanation/excuse for a positive was a missing TUE. Although it's a reasonable explanation rules is rules. Surely he won't escape sanction.


----------



## DogTired (29 Apr 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> What precedents are there for this? Yeah, I know about LA and his retrospective TUE for cortisone, but _ordinary _precedents where the offered explanation/excuse for a positive was a missing TUE. Although it's a reasonable explanation rules is rules. Surely he won't escape sanction.



The WADA guidelines for asthma TUEs (https://www.wada-ama.org/en/resourc...tion-to-support-the-decisions-of-tuecs-asthma) give detailed requirements in order to define a need. Rules is rules but you'd expect it to be dealt with realistically if it was a provable ongoing condition and it was clear OG messed up just one tue application. If it magically turned up in one race, maybe not so sympathetic...

But yep, there has to be a sanction and also the headline is 'Cyclist caught taking drugs' - thats what the public see...


----------



## Crackle (29 Apr 2016)

Well there is a precedent for a retrospective TUE, as we know


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## DogTired (29 Apr 2016)

Crackle said:


> Well there is a precedent for a retrospective TUE, as we know



Aah, back in the good ol days!


----------



## 400bhp (29 Apr 2016)

PaulB said:


> There's a lot of TUEs floating around, aren't there? It's actually extraordinary how many pro cyclists have asthma when you think about it.



Maybe someone should be collecting data on this. Not just cycling but across the board. We're all guessing to some extent how prevalent asthma and other "respiratory problems" exist in some athletes. The first step would be to determine iof there's any statistical uptick in professional athletes above the normal population.

Data data data. All big business rely on this to enhance and build business. Why not professional sport? Probably because it's essentially being run by a ,oad of amateurs who couldn't run a succesful business.


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## Crackle (29 Apr 2016)

400bhp said:


> Maybe someone should be collecting data on this. Not just cycling but across the board. We're all guessing to some extent how prevalent asthma and other "respiratory problems" exist in some athletes. The first step would be to determine iof there's any statistical uptick in professional athletes above the normal population.
> 
> Data data data. All big business rely on this to enhance and build business. Why not professional sport? Probably because it's essentially being run by a ,oad of amateurs who couldn't run a succesful business.




_Asthma symptoms are common in high-level athletes - one study showed that 70% of British top level swimmers and around a third of Team Sky were registered asthmatics_

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/apr/29/orica-green-simon-yates-positive-test-administrative-error

Which seems an awful lot but without knowing more, it's hard to draw a sensible conclusion.


----------



## 400bhp (29 Apr 2016)

Crackle said:


> _Asthma symptoms are common in high-level athletes - one study showed that 70% of British top level swimmers and around a third of Team Sky were registered asthmatics_
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/apr/29/orica-green-simon-yates-positive-test-administrative-error
> 
> Which seems an awful lot but without knowing more, it's hard to draw a sensible conclusion.



I probably should have googled it, but let's just assume for now there is statistical bias. The next question is to find what the possible reasons are which may or may not lead to an unsavioury conclusion.


----------



## Crackle (29 Apr 2016)

400bhp said:


> I probably should have googled it, but let's just assume for now there is statistical bias. The next question is to find what the possible reasons are which may or may not lead to an unsavioury conclusion.


THe link in the quote provides some fairly good explanations, which seem entirely plausible.


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## GrumpyGregry (29 Apr 2016)

Big Dave laaa said:


> Doctor failed to apply for TUE apparently. Seems a bit of a big mistake to make if that's the case. Terbutaline doesn't really give enough of a performance kick to risk it. So hoping this can be cleared up.



Marginal gains is what it is all about. From a different sport but the theory works out the same way...

https://www.propublica.org/article/elite-runner-had-qualms-alberto-salazar-asthma-drug-performance

"Alberto set up an appointment in Portland, during allergy season, with a doctor who had seen many other runners. He had a specific protocol ... you would go to the local track and run around the track, work yourself up to having an asthma attack and then run down the street, up 12 flights of stairs to the office and they would be waiting to test you. So that's what I did and I failed the test, and the doctor prescribed Advair for during the racing season when pollen counts were the highest, and albuterol, which is a rescue inhaler."
-and-
"After I got the medication, he explained to me that this is going to be great for you, so many athletes once they got on this, did so much better than they'd ever done before. And he described the ways that could happen: there's a glucocorticosteroid in [Advair], and there's a possibility that some of that could get systemically into your body and give you an advantage, and you can legally take it because you have asthma ... He encouraged me to push to be on the highest dose of it year round, which was something different than what the doctor had said."

imo it is about time the whole TUE bs got dumped in the gutter. Too easy to game it. Race clean, or not at all.


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## GrumpyGregry (29 Apr 2016)

PaulB said:


> There's a lot of TUEs floating around, aren't there? It's actually extraordinary how many pro cyclists have asthma when you think about it. It's a very high percentage; far higher than that in the rest of the population. This allows their doctors to issue them with prescriptions for broncho-dilators which of course eases their asthma.
> 
> Cynical, me?


See my post above. Laura is a straight up and down person.

It is amazing how many pro-athletes in all sporting disciplines have asthma and have TUE's for asthma drugs...


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## Big Dave laaa (29 Apr 2016)

UCI not suspending Yates 

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news...positive-test-terbutaline-confirms-uci-223094


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## ColinJ (29 Apr 2016)

GrumpyGregry said:


> "Alberto set up an appointment in Portland, during allergy season, with a doctor who had seen many other runners. He had a specific protocol ... you would go to the local track and run around the track, work yourself up to having an asthma attack and then run down the street, up 12 flights of stairs to the office and they would be waiting to test you. So that's what I did and I failed the test, and the doctor prescribed Advair for during the racing season when pollen counts were the highest, and albuterol, which is a rescue inhaler."


To me, that says that if you suffer from asthma and run around in 'allergy season' then you will probably have an asthma attack, which sounds like a good reason to be on the meds!


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## Dogtrousers (29 Apr 2016)

ColinJ said:


> To me, that says that if you suffer from asthma and run around in 'allergy season' then you will probably have an asthma attack, which sounds like a good reason to be on the meds!


A good reason to have the meds available, but the point of that particular article is ...

_He [Salazar] encouraged me to push to be on the highest dose of it year round, which was something different than what the doctor had said.

There was this whole other level it seemed of how to use the medication, and it made me feel uncomfortable_


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## GrumpyGregry (29 Apr 2016)

ColinJ said:


> To me, that says that if you suffer from asthma and run around in 'allergy season' then you will probably have an asthma attack, which sounds like a good reason to be on the meds!


to me that says almost anyone, including elite athletes at the peak of fitness, can work themselves up into a state, under particular circumstances, where they present the symptoms of an asthma attack. And if they then present said symptoms to a friendly medic they can get the meds, meds which will enhance their performance outside of those particular circumstances but it is ok because they will have a TUE and are a diagnosed asthmatic.

That doesn't mean they have chronic asthma that needs to be treated and controlled by drugs. Clearly Laura Fleshman decided she wasn't an asthmatic and that she was gaming the system.


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## GrumpyGregry (29 Apr 2016)

btw though no part of me is an elite athlete, I am a chronic asthmatic. I don't take any meds to control it, and I don't carry a reliever. Why not? Because my asthma only presents under very specific circumstances, two of which are being over 15st 8lbs and not taking enough CV exercise and then there needs to be an environment trigger (temperature change seems to be one). Oddly my lungs coped fine with temperature changes of more than 35 degrees this winter because I'm running regularly and weigh a stone less than the threshold weight.


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## Hont (29 Apr 2016)

Big Dave laaa said:


> UCI not suspending Yates
> 
> http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news...positive-test-terbutaline-confirms-uci-223094



Precedent would appear to be a 4 month ban. 

If we take Orica's statement at face value then they do need to improve on their admin. They didn't know how tall their bus was and now this.


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## Dogtrousers (29 Apr 2016)

It was quite far sighted of Orica to hire a spare Yates in case one of them became unavailable.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (29 Apr 2016)

Coming soon, pro tour TUE-exemption pundit


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## Buddfox (29 Apr 2016)

This just seems like another reason to dump the whole TUE charade. If you've got an illness that means you can't make it to being a top pro athlete, even if that is occasional asthma, then it's time to find something else to do with your life. The system is far too open to abuse.


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## Hont (29 Apr 2016)

Buddfox said:


> This just seems like another reason to dump the whole TUE charade. If you've got an illness that means you can't make it to being a top pro athlete, even if that is occasional asthma, then it's time to find something else to do with your life. The system is far too open to abuse.


The problem with that is you would be denying pro-athletes the same medical treatment that a non-athlete can get. Asthma is a potentially very serious condition. I can't see anyone signing off on a policy that could potentially result in a rider's death.

Agree that the TUE issue needs more examination though.


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## smutchin (29 Apr 2016)

Hont said:


> The problem with that is you would be denying pro-athletes the same medical treatment that a non-athlete can get.



No, you'd be denying people with asthma the opportunity to become a pro athlete. You'd have the choice between following your sporting dreams or taking the medication.

A bit draconian, perhaps, but you might find that a number of top sports people are suddenly and miraculously cured of their lifelong asthma problem.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (9 May 2016)

Vorgarov "cleared" to resume racing, but the case is not yet concluded
http://www.uci.ch/pressreleases/dec...y-commission-vorganov-provisional-suspension/


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## Flying_Monkey (20 May 2016)

As Puerto disappears, news of another Spanish doping ring emerges:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/former-pro-cyclists-at-the-centre-of-doping-ring-in-spain/


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## Pro Tour Punditry (23 May 2016)

Flying_Monkey said:


> As Puerto disappears.../


Speaking of Puerto, Jaksche thinks not much has changed
http://velonews.competitor.com/2016...skeptical-a-wolf-cannot-change-its-fur_407024


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## HF2300 (24 May 2016)

Have to say, a lot of what he says rings true. Maybe there isn't the massive, systematic doping there was, maybe the sport - and the performances of some of the top cyclists - are more believable (and the sudden drop in performance of some is telling), but it's still hard to believe in some performances, and there are too many unrepentant dopers still involved in the sport

This seemed the saddest comment, though:


Jørg Jaksche said:


> ...I have to say in retrospect, it was a mistake to have testified. The USADA report wasn’t about truth and honesty and change, it was only about going after Lance. I am almost embarrassed to have been part of this report...


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## Crackle (24 May 2016)

Marmion said:


> Speaking of Puerto, Jaksche thinks not much has changed
> http://velonews.competitor.com/2016...skeptical-a-wolf-cannot-change-its-fur_407024



I find it hard not to think that was a totally pointless interview and easy to believe his views are still coloured by his own absolute acceptance of systematic doping as a way of life. I feel he misses the point entirely: Irrelevant.


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## smutchin (24 May 2016)

Crackle said:


> I find it hard not to think that was a totally pointless interview and easy to believe his views are still coloured by his own absolute acceptance of systematic doping as a way of life. I feel he misses the point entirely: Irrelevant.



Totally agree. He's judging the whole world by his own very low standards.


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## User169 (31 May 2016)

smutchin said:


> Just saw @ItsSteveLovell's post in the punditry thread so had to look up the reasons for Henao's withdrawal from Flèche Wallonne...
> 
> http://www.teamsky.com/teamsky/home/article/77343#zG6Fyrsvh7PeBKUA.97
> 
> ...



No further action to be taken by UCI in view of further submissions from Henao.


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## smutchin (31 May 2016)

DP said:


> No further action to be taken by UCI in view of further submissions from Henao.



Were those submissions made in a brown paper envelope?


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## SWSteve (31 May 2016)

The Henao thing is an odd one. I don't doubt there's a lack of research into altitude natives, but it just doesn't all add up. It's like there are some big parts to the investigation that haven't been revealed. 

I'm not saying there's something wrong with Henao's actions, I just believe this whole case has been odd from the start.


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## Crackle (1 Jun 2016)

ItsSteveLovell said:


> The Henao thing is an odd one. I don't doubt there's a lack of research into altitude natives, but it just doesn't all add up. It's like there are some big parts to the investigation that haven't been revealed.
> 
> I'm not saying there's something wrong with Henao's actions, I just believe this whole case has been odd from the start.


We'd probably need to know what the anomalies were and what the extra data supplied proved. A broad guess would be changes in various blood levels due to going from altitude and back which probably mimicked the same readings as blood doping in some way.


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## Flying_Monkey (1 Jun 2016)

Crackle said:


> We'd probably need to know what the anomalies were and what the extra data supplied proved. A broad guess would be changes in various blood levels due to going from altitude and back which probably mimicked the same readings as blood doping in some way.



Something like that, I expect. The previous research done will have showed how Henao just going back home, training and coming back down to lower altitude affected his blood values. And what they will have done this time is demonstrate that this time it was the same pattern and similar readings.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (3 Jun 2016)

An interesting article (it's not every day you see that said about cyclingnews!) about an alternate view - which led to being sacked...
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/usa-cycling-dismisses-anti-doping-expert-over-unconventional-views/


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## oldroadman (5 Jun 2016)

Marmion said:


> An interesting article (it's not every day you see that said about cyclingnews!) about an alternate view - which led to being sacked...
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/usa-cycling-dismisses-anti-doping-expert-over-unconventional-views/


I read the article and think that removing anyone with views which suggest "doping is OK if it's carefully controlled" is quite reasonable. We do not need people like that to encourage those who still persist with their ideas that it's OK to have chemically fuelled riders. The man's views are not "unconventional", they are plain wrong. Doubtless there are a few sports which would welcome his views, where the money is so big that they will do anything to avoid a "scandal" which might reveal their top performers are not entirely clean as they would like everyone to think.


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## Dogtrousers (6 Jun 2016)

I'm not really sure precisely what Dimeo's views are exactly, but "OK if controlled" seems a fair analysis from a quick google. Perhaps it's more complex than that, I don't know. 

However it's not his sacking that is really puzzling, it's why they appointed someone with these views in the first place. And _then _sacked them.


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## Crackle (6 Jun 2016)

oldroadman said:


> I read the article and think that removing anyone with views which suggest "doping is OK if it's carefully controlled" is quite reasonable. We do not need people like that to encourage those who still persist with their ideas that it's OK to have chemically fuelled riders. The man's views are not "unconventional", they are plain wrong. Doubtless there are a few sports which would welcome his views, where the money is so big that they will do anything to avoid a "scandal" which might reveal their top performers are not entirely clean as they would like everyone to think.


He makes no bones about challenging conventions though. As he says, he's an academic and part of his job is to challenge assumptions but as Dogtrousers says, knowing this, why did they appoint him.


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## Flying_Monkey (7 Jun 2016)

This could be in either 'doping' thread. There's more trouble in Spain: WADA have suspended the Madrid's anti-doping laboratory's accreditation for non-compliance with its code.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/wada-suspends-madrid-laboratory-with-immediate-effect/


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## Flying_Monkey (13 Jun 2016)

Gasparotto and Thurau were pulled from Dauphiné for low cortisol levels based on MPCC rules. No evidence of doping of course, although low cortisol levels can indicate cortisone abuse, merely a 'health precaution'... 

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/gas...erium-du-dauphine-due-to-low-cortisol-levels/

I have to say that Gasparotto's resurgence of late had seemed at the very least, worthy of a raised eyebrow...


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## User169 (14 Jun 2016)

Decision expected today as to the Operacion Puerto blood bags can be turned over to the sports authorities in Spain.


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## smutchin (14 Jun 2016)

Flying_Monkey said:


> I have to say that Gasparotto's resurgence of late had seemed at the very least, worthy of a raised eyebrow...



Yes, could all be perfectly innocent, of course, but there is an overwhelming sense of 'quacks like a duck' about it.


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## SWSteve (14 Jun 2016)

DP said:


> Decision expected today as to the Operacion Puerto blood bags can be turned over to the sports authorities in Spain.



Statute of limitations would mean nothing could be done, just names in the press


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## rich p (14 Jun 2016)

ItsSteveLovell said:


> Statute of limitations would mean nothing could be done, just names in the press


It will have an effect though on people's perceptions and the rider's legacy and integrity
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ope...to-be-handed-over-to-anti-doping-authorities/


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## Crackle (14 Jun 2016)

rich p said:


> It will have an effect though on people's perceptions and the rider's legacy and integrity
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ope...to-be-handed-over-to-anti-doping-authorities/


Oooh, rubs hands......


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## smutchin (14 Jun 2016)

rich p said:


> It will have an effect though on people's perceptions and the rider's legacy and integrity
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ope...to-be-handed-over-to-anti-doping-authorities/



Riders? The really interesting outcome will be if any footballers or tennis players are named. I'd be surprised if we learned anything new with regard to cycling - only confirming the identities of the 23 cyclists, which we already know.


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## rich p (14 Jun 2016)

smutchin said:


> Riders? The really interesting outcome will be if any footballers or tennis players are named. I'd be surprised if we learned anything new with regard to cycling - only confirming the identities of the 23 cyclists, which we already know.


Yes, you're probably right. Do we know who AC was or is my ageing memory playing tricks?


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## ColinJ (14 Jun 2016)

rich p said:


> Yes, you're probably right. Do we know who AC was or is my ageing memory playing tricks?


If it was not the obvious possibility (Contador), then ... Ángel Casero?


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## Dogtrousers (14 Jun 2016)

ColinJ said:


> If it was not the obvious possibility (Contador), then ... Ángel Casero?


A Cyclist


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## ColinJ (14 Jun 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> A Cyclist


A Cheat?


----------



## smutchin (14 Jun 2016)

Actually, I say 'we' already know who the 23 cyclists are but I couldn't tell you off the top of my head without doing some internet research.

Thing is, even if it is confirmed that Chris Horner is 'Rider 15', for example, there will still be those who say even if he was doping in 2007, it's no proof that he was still doping in 2013. Most of us have already made up our minds either way on that one.



ColinJ said:


> A Cheat?



A daffodil!


----------



## Hont (14 Jun 2016)

rich p said:


> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ope...to-be-handed-over-to-anti-doping-authorities/



I read that and thought "good news", but actually it's only what should have happened in the first place.


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## Flying_Monkey (14 Jun 2016)

It stinks. The judge has effectively operated a delaying tactic so that the blood bags were released only after the ten year limit had expired. He has also cleared Fuentes of all charges, which means there is nothing legally preventing him from returning to professional sports medicine. There is no other credible explanation other than bribery and corruption.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (14 Jun 2016)

smutchin said:


> Riders? The really interesting outcome will be if any footballers or tennis players are named. I'd be surprised if we learned anything new with regard to cycling - only confirming the identities of the 23 cyclists, which we already know.



And this:



Flying_Monkey said:


> It stinks. The judge has effectively operated a delaying tactic so that the blood bags were released only after the ten year limit had expired. He has also cleared Fuentes of all charges, which means there is nothing legally preventing him from returning to professional sports medicine. There is no other credible explanation other than bribery and corruption.


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## Hont (14 Jun 2016)

Whilst it definitely stinks of something, it was a different judge that made today's order vs the one who made the order to destroy the bags. The clearing of Fuentes appears to be down to a legal nuance, as there was no law against athletic doping at the time and it centred around whether his actions endangered public health rather than any question of what he was doing. So there is another credible explanation: the law is an ass. 

The Lance Armstrong case has shown that the damage to your reputation can be pretty punitive - even if you don't serve a ban. So lets hope the owners of those bags are sleeping badly tonight.


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## smutchin (14 Jun 2016)

Hont said:


> The Lance Armstrong case has shown that the damage to your reputation can be pretty punitive


----------



## Flying_Monkey (14 Jun 2016)

Hont said:


> Whilst it definitely stinks of something, it was a different judge that made today's order vs the one who made the order to destroy the bags. The clearing of Fuentes appears to be down to a legal nuance, as there was no law against athletic doping at the time and it centred around whether his actions endangered public health rather than any question of what he was doing. So there is another credible explanation: the law is an ass.



It doesn't have to be the same judge for there to be something going on, and in any case, it won't be the judges who make (all) the decisions on timing. If there are blood bags belonging to people with the kinds of resources like certain 'top' tennis and soccer stars, then money for bribing a few legal officials is not going to be lacking. If this isn't the case, it just seems like an incredible coincidence that poor practice and mistakes led to this particular timing...


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## rich p (14 Jun 2016)

I'm


Flying_Monkey said:


> It doesn't have to be the same judge for there to be something going on, and in any case, it won't be the judges who make (all) the decisions on timing. If there are blood bags belonging to people with the kinds of resources like certain 'top' tennis and soccer stars, then money for bribing a few legal officials is not going to be lacking. If this isn't the case, it just seems like an incredible coincidence that poor practice and mistakes led to this particular timing...


I read somewhere ( I'll look around later if I have time) that the SOL was 8 years, and 10 years has now passed. I can't be sure though.


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## Flying_Monkey (17 Jun 2016)

No Tour de France for Simon Yates this year. He gets a 4-month ban for unintentional doping. 

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/simon-yates-handed-four-month-non-intentional-doping-ban/

Fair enough really. Assuming it all was a mistake of course...


----------



## fossyant (17 Jun 2016)

Flying_Monkey said:


> No Tour de France for Simon Yates this year. He gets a 4-month ban for unintentional doping.
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/simon-yates-handed-four-month-non-intentional-doping-ban/
> 
> Fair enough really. Assuming it all was a mistake of course...



No excuse. If he was asthmatic he would know which ones to take - you wouldn't have the inhalers with the banned drugs about, but far too many pros seem to be asthmatic.


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## Flying_Monkey (17 Jun 2016)

fossyant said:


> No excuse. If he was asthmatic he would know which ones to take - you wouldn't have the inhalers with the banned drugs about, but far too many pros seem to be asthmatic.



I think the point is that TUE's are generally not dealt with by the rider but by the team doctor. Who messed up in this case. Whether we believe that so many cyclists are asthmatics or not is besides the point - or is a different discussion. He has to be treated the same as anyone else who is recognised as having the condition. Which means he has to take the punishment, but not as much as someone who did not have a recognised condition but was taking medication for it. And certainly not as much as someone who was taking a completely non-therapeutic substance.


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## fossyant (17 Jun 2016)

There is a significant number of TUE's for asthma in pro cycling over and above the norm. Just saying !

Thing is, if you are taking a medication regularly, like inhalers, you would know which one you have. Why they have inhalers around that contain 'banned' substances is very questionable.


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## smutchin (17 Jun 2016)

fossyant said:


> Thing is, if you are taking a medication regularly, like inhalers, you would know which one you have.



You're missing the point - the problem is not that he didn't know what he was taking, it's that the required TUE wasn't obtained due to an admin oversight. It's unlikely that this is the first time he's used the medication, but it is the first time the doctor has failed to file the paperwork.



> Why they have inhalers around that contain 'banned' substances is very questionable.



A valid concern, but as @Flying_Monkey says, a bit of a side issue in this case.

It's to the team's credit that they have held their hands up and admitted the mistake rather than come up with some weaselish excuse, but it does go to show that even the reputedly 'clean' teams aren't averse to interpreting the rules to the letter rather than the spirit.


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## fimm (18 Jun 2016)

I saw the documentary film "Pantani - the accidental death of a cyclist" last night. Boy did he go up hills fast! I don't think I have ever seen anyone climb quite like that. You could see why he was so admired. 
Now we know what we know, of course. Hence I am posting in this thread.


----------



## User169 (24 Jun 2016)

Floyd really is incorrigible..

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/floyd-landis-starts-cannabis-product-business-in-colorado/


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## lyn1 (24 Jun 2016)

fossyant said:


> There is a significant number of TUE's for asthma in pro cycling over and above the norm. Just saying !



Not sure what you mean by "the norm", but if it is compared to the general population, then surely that's no surprise. Exercise induced asthma results from strenuous exercise so pro cyclists would be far more likely to show evidence of the condition than the general population, which comprises many sedentary people.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (24 Jun 2016)

According to Liberation, Chavanel, Coppel and Ledanois have used the "services" of (Dr Mabuse) Bernard Sainz for "homeopathic medicine"
http://www.liberation.fr/sports/2016/06/24/le-docteur-mabuse-revient-hanter-le-peloton_1461944


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## 400bhp (24 Jun 2016)

fossyant said:


> There is a significant number of TUE's for asthma in pro cycling over and above the norm. Just saying !
> 
> Thing is, if you are taking a medication regularly, like inhalers, you would know which one you have. Why they have inhalers around that contain 'banned' substances is very questionable.



I asked a while back whether there wwere any studies that showed why asthma was higher in professional sport and someone pointed to a study. I can't remember the post but it was very credible evidence.


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## smutchin (24 Jun 2016)

Marmion said:


> According to Liberation, Chavanel, Coppel and Ledanois have used the "services" of (Dr Mabuse) Bernard Sainz for "homeopathic medicine"
> http://www.liberation.fr/sports/2016/06/24/le-docteur-mabuse-revient-hanter-le-peloton_1461944



Nooooo! Not Chavanel. Please don't let him be a doper...


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (24 Jun 2016)

smutchin said:


> Nooooo! Not Chavanel. Please don't let him be a doper...



It's ok, he's only using medicine that doesnae work


----------



## Flying_Monkey (24 Jun 2016)

Marmion said:


> It's ok, he's only using medicine that doesnae work



Just a dope not a doper...


----------



## DogTired (27 Jun 2016)

400bhp said:


> I asked a while back whether there wwere any studies that showed why asthma was higher in professional sport and someone pointed to a study. I can't remember the post but it was very credible evidence.



There was a bit of chat on p66 post 977 onwards...


----------



## Dogtrousers (27 Jun 2016)

Marmion said:


> According to Liberation, Chavanel, Coppel and Ledanois have used the "services" of (Dr Mabuse) Bernard Sainz for "homeopathic medicine"
> http://www.liberation.fr/sports/2016/06/24/le-docteur-mabuse-revient-hanter-le-peloton_1461944


Homeopathic, eh?

Have they developed a test that can detect dihydrogen monoxide?


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## ColinJ (27 Jun 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> Homeopathic, eh?
> 
> Have they developed a test that can detect dihydrogen monoxide?


I have heard that they are experimenting with dehydrated dihydrogen monoxide - its reduced bulk saves a fortune in storage and transportation costs. It is also much easier to swallow ...


----------



## smutchin (27 Jun 2016)

ColinJ said:


> I have heard that they are experimenting with dehydrated dihydrogen monoxide - its reduced bulk saves a fortune in storage and transportation costs. It is also much easier to swallow ...



Good, because I find the idea of cyclists getting any benefit from homeopathic medicines rather hard to swallow.


----------



## rich p (28 Jun 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> Homeopathic, eh?
> 
> Have they developed a test that can detect dihydrogen monoxide?


I've also heard that it can come in solid form and works well with a cocktail...
...of other ingredients


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## Pro Tour Punditry (5 Jul 2016)

Tatiana Antoshina (Astana women's team) tests positive for GHRP-2 (Growth Hormone). She's the current Russian TT Champion
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/antoshina-fired-by-astana-womens-team-after-positive-test/


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (5 Jul 2016)

Another Russian female cyclist identified as the only cyclist who tested positive at 2012 'lympics from the re-tests:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/rus...-cycling-positive-from-2012-olympics-re-test/


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## Turdus philomelos (5 Jul 2016)




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## Proto (5 Jul 2016)

She's down to ride the Tour de Feminin (UCI WE2.2) in the Czech Republic tomorrow with Russian national team. I'm assuming she'll be not now be riding. She won the TT stage in the same race last year by over 30 seconds on a relatively short stage (Finished in 21 mins or something). Three Russians in the top 12. Suspect it's widespread. She also did well in the TT world championships in the US last year.

I find it all a bit depressing, my daughter is riding too, and I know she rides clean.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (5 Jul 2016)

Proto said:


> She's down to ride the Tour de Feminin (UCI WE2.2) in the Czech Republic tomorrow with Russian national team. I'm assuming she'll be not now be riding. She won the TT stage in the same race last year by over 30 seconds on a relatively short stage (Finished in 21 mins or something). Three Russians in the top 12. Suspect it's widespread. She also did well in the TT world championships in the US last year.
> 
> I find it all a bit depressing, my daughter is riding too, and I know she rides clean.


She's suspended so won't be there tomorrow


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## Pro Tour Punditry (7 Jul 2016)

I was going to do a considered lead-in, but have decided against it. What a prick:
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news...-british-cyclist-handed-ban-taking-epo-255882


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## HF2300 (8 Jul 2016)

"...when there is that much media exposure, about EPO, it is easy to be tempted..."

Yet overwhelmingly the media coverage in recent years has been 'don't do it' - but despite that he thought it was a good idea...


----------



## Flying_Monkey (8 Jul 2016)

HF2300 said:


> "...when there is that much media exposure, about EPO, it is easy to be tempted..."
> 
> Yet overwhelmingly the media coverage in recent years has been 'don't do it' - but despite that he thought it was a good idea...



The media coverage also overwhelmingly shows that _it works_ (plus people like Armstrong still seem to be enjoying life and benefitting from the results of their drug abuse), so for some people, this risk is worth taking.


----------



## HF2300 (8 Jul 2016)

It does, and I'm not naive to that; and clearly that was part of his calculation since he referenced the loss of his previous junior title by a large margin - but the point I was making was that the overwhelming tone of media coverage of EPO and other PEDs in recent years has been highly negative, yet in his decision making process he filtered that out and did it anyway. There's a question there not only about his personal decision making and morals but also the general way athletes come to PEDs and respond to or ignore the prevailing atmosphere.


----------



## smutchin (8 Jul 2016)

It's worrying that he's already talking about himself in terms of being 'more like David Millar than Lance Armstrong'. Sounds like a bit of a cock.


----------



## SWSteve (8 Jul 2016)

He has also refused to explain where and how he got it. 

Obviously keeping going when the ban ends


----------



## Dave Davenport (8 Jul 2016)

ItsSteveLovell said:


> He has also refused to explain where and how he got it.
> 
> Obviously keeping going when the ban ends


If that's the case he should remain banned until he cooperates fully with the anti-doping authorities IMO.


----------



## rich p (19 Jul 2016)

Konyshev, the DS of Katusha, is bemoaning that poor old Zakarin may be barred from the Olympics.
His defence that cycling and Katusha are above reproach when it comes doping is slightly comical especially when you consider that Zakarin, himself, was banned for 2 years for steroid abuse.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/zak...france-despite-calls-to-bar-russian-athletes/
Political as opposed to the exposure of state-sponsored doping! Putin-esque defence
_“We know there’s a political war against Russia at the moment, and they’re squeezing us everywhere. It seems strange to me to hear talk about democracy from people who have colonised the whole world. They’re brave to talk about democracy when millions of people have been killed. That seems ridiculous to me.”_


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## oldroadman (19 Jul 2016)

rich p said:


> Konyshev, the DS of Katusha, is bemoaning that poor old Zakarin may be barred from the Olympics.
> His defence that cycling and Katusha are above reproach when it comes doping is slightly comical especially when you consider that Zakarin, himself, was banned for 2 years for steroid abuse.
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/zak...france-despite-calls-to-bar-russian-athletes/
> Political as opposed to the exposure of state-sponsored doping! Putin-esque defence
> _“We know there’s a political war against Russia at the moment, and they’re squeezing us everywhere. It seems strange to me to hear talk about democracy from people who have colonised the whole world. *They’re brave to talk about democracy when millions of people have been killed*. That seems ridiculous to me.”_



Hmm...the track record needs a review, clearly. Anyone for a purge?


----------



## Crackle (21 Jul 2016)

Is it me or is Lemond beginning to sound a bit batshit crazy

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/greg-lemond-miracles-in-cycling-still-dont-exist/


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## Dogtrousers (21 Jul 2016)

Crackle said:


> Is it me or is Lemond beginning to sound a bit batshit crazy
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/greg-lemond-miracles-in-cycling-still-dont-exist/



I'm suspecting that there's some poor translation going on here, as there are some pretty weird phrases like _"you could only use them for an instant and be devilishly dragged long". _


----------



## Big Dave laaa (21 Jul 2016)

I don't know, they said that about him when he tried to out armstrong. He may be a little obsessive but he had a tough time of it. If I was in his shoes I'd probably be the same.
The Sky and Froome thing has worried me since his bilharzia episode and I really hope he's clean.


----------



## ColinJ (21 Jul 2016)

Crackle said:


> Is it me or is Lemond beginning to sound a bit batshit crazy
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/greg-lemond-miracles-in-cycling-still-dont-exist/


Well, they all said that when he went on and on about Armstrong et al ...


----------



## Crackle (21 Jul 2016)

Big Dave laaa said:


> I don't know, they said that about him when he tried to out armstrong. He may be a little obsessive but he had a tough time of it. If I was in his shoes I'd probably be the same.
> The Sky and Froome thing has worried me since his bilharzia episode and I really hope he's clean.





ColinJ said:


> Well, they all said that when he went on and on about Armstrong et al ...



I considered that but this smacks of an obsession beyond reasonableness. I have a lot of respect for Lemond, enough not to dismiss him completely but this is beginning to seem exactly like an obsession.


----------



## mjr (21 Jul 2016)

Crackle said:


> Is it me or is Lemond beginning to sound a bit batshit crazy
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/greg-lemond-miracles-in-cycling-still-dont-exist/


Nah. He's a product of his experiences and he was treated badly for a long time. It's worth considering what he says, but remember he's human and won't be correct every time. I wonder if he said more about Sky that hasn't made the translation or maybe hasn't made the published source article. Some of what Sky have been doing seems obviously beneficial in hindsight, like the "laundrobus" that washes rider kits and bedding individually to reduce the risk of illness sweeping through their team like it does so many Tour teams.

Who's that Frederick Portoleau he mentions? Web searching wasn't enlightening.


----------



## mjr (21 Jul 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> I'm suspecting that there's some poor translation going on here, as there are some pretty weird phrases like _"you could only use them for an instant and be devilishly dragged long". _


Source article is http://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme-sur-route/Article/Greg-lemond-rien-de-pire-que-le-doute/707526 but behind a "€4 for 10 articles" paywall, so who knows?


----------



## Dogtrousers (21 Jul 2016)

mjray said:


> Source article is http://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme-sur-route/Article/Greg-lemond-rien-de-pire-que-le-doute/707526 but behind a "€4 for 10 articles" paywall, so who knows?


Even if I did pay my €4, my French is so bad that the resultant translation would be even weirder.


----------



## Big Dave laaa (21 Jul 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> Even if I did pay my €4, my French is so bad that the resultant translation would be even weirder.


ļ

Mange tout Dogtrousers mange tout


----------



## smutchin (21 Jul 2016)

This is the bit that troubles me:
"The great physiologist Frederick Portoleau showed that when Froome accelerates hard, his heart only shows small variations. This is troubling. What bothers me is hearing some technicians say it's science fiction, which is a kind of misinformation. Others make us believe they are ahead of the best scientists, the famous Team Sky marginal gains! What bollocks! There are no new methodologies. That is wrong. In this area too, miracles do not exist."

Something has clearly been lost in translation - do Americans even use the word 'bollocks'? 

Based on other things he's said in the past, my interpretation is that he's saying what Sky are doing is nothing new (which is true - LeMond arguably invented 'marginal gains' back in the 80s), and that other teams who talk of 'science fiction' in Sky's approach are the ones talking bollocks - showing their own lack of understanding of the science.


----------



## Dogtrousers (21 Jul 2016)

I think the translation of "bollocks" was probably from "conneries" or some such. What I concluded after trying to interpret it was the idea that "marginal gains" was a brand new approach that no-one had thought of before was bollocks. ie "There are no new methodologies".

I didn't have a clue about the "science fiction" bit.

But even when GL speaks English he can ramble on a bit. Throw in a bit of heavy handed/automatic translation and you can be devilishly dragged long.


----------



## smutchin (21 Jul 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> What I concluded after trying to interpret it was the idea that "marginal gains" was a brand new approach that no-one had thought of before was bollocks. ie "There are no new methodologies".



Exactly. 

It's not hard to detect the editorial agenda behind the way L'Equipe have presented the piece.


----------



## rich p (21 Jul 2016)

Whatever, he is as boring as fark on Eurosport. I fast forward his 'in-race' interjections these days whenever possible.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (21 Jul 2016)

My apologies for giving that nobber cheat Armstrong more internetweb space, but what kind of f*cktard is his "biographer" *
http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/07/commentary/armstrong-biographer-still-doesnt-get_415477

* a monumental one


----------



## RoubaixCube (21 Jul 2016)

Speaking of doping gits...Russia's olympic track and field team.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (21 Jul 2016)

RoubaixCube said:


> Speaking of doping gits...Russia's olympic track and field team.


 Indeed
https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/doping-in-other-sports.121987/post-4376854


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (28 Jul 2016)

Pro Continental for Manolo Saiz? 

http://elpeloton.net/2016/07/manolo...ilidad-alta-aldro-pase-continental-ano-viene/


----------



## psmiffy (28 Jul 2016)

Marmion said:


> Pro Continental for Manolo Saiz?
> 
> http://elpeloton.net/2016/07/manolo...ilidad-alta-aldro-pase-continental-ano-viene/



Even the team Boss is on it


> *I hallucinated in this Vuelta a Leon*


 - presumably not the performance enhancing stuff though


----------



## Stonechat (29 Jul 2016)

Zakarin pulled from Rio


----------



## HF2300 (29 Jul 2016)

Stonechat said:


> Zakarin pulled from Rio



Bound to happen, he's had a doping ban. Supposedly Zakarin, Zabelinskaya, Shilov withdrawn by the Russian Olympic Committee, Sokolov and Sveshnikov barred by the UCI, one other likely to be barred.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (29 Jul 2016)

It is quite possible that Zakarin had no been following the Froome thread


MartinQ said:


> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/zakarin-pulled-from-flight-to-rio-olympics-at-last-minute/
> 
> Looks like he didn't know what was going on either ...



And he may not have been following another thread I posted on a few days back



Marmion said:


> Quite a strange decision; not all Russians banned, but any Russian with a previous ban for doping is excluded. Whereas competitors from other countries with a previous doping ban are not excluded.





Marmion said:


> We'll have the situation in the cycling that Zakarin will not be there as he has a previous doping ban and is Russian, whilst Valverde will be. And Stevic, who initially got a life ban which was changed to 2 years after appeal. And Pourseyedi. And Caruso. I could probably find many more if I could be arsed checking all the teams...



Perhaps if we had kept our cycling doping chat in this thread he'd have spotted it


----------



## rich p (31 Jul 2016)

He may have helped blow the lid off ArmstrongGate but he's still a complete nobhead.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features...s-floyd-landis-returns-to-the-tour-de-france/


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (31 Jul 2016)

rich p said:


> He may have helped blow the lid off ArmstrongGate but he's still a complete nobhead.
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/features...s-floyd-landis-returns-to-the-tour-de-france/


Ha! I was reading that earlier this evening, what a complete chump.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (1 Aug 2016)

Armitstead cleared to ride in the 'lypmics after CAS appeal

She missed 3 tests, but "correct procedure not followed". UKAD wanted a 4 year ban; appeal funded by British Cycling..

As far as I can make out so far from social media sorts


----------



## Diggs (1 Aug 2016)

Marmion said:


> Armitstead cleared to ride in the 'lypmics after CAS appeal
> 
> She missed 3 tests, but "correct procedure not followed". UKAD wanted a 4 year ban; appeal funded by British Cycling..
> 
> As far as I can make out so far from social media sorts


This, especially the BC involvement seems really odd


----------



## smutchin (1 Aug 2016)

Diggs said:


> This, especially the BC involvement seems really odd



She's probably Britain's best medal hope in the road cycling events, so I can see why BC would get involved.

This news explains one or two other oddities though. The reason given for her late withdrawal from La Course was that she "decided not to risk a crash" ahead of the Olympics. With hindsight, that should have been a red flag.


----------



## smutchin (2 Aug 2016)

Marmion said:


> She missed 3 tests, but "correct procedure not followed". UKAD wanted a 4 year ban; appeal funded by British Cycling..



The disputed missed test was the day before the Vargada World Cup TTT. She claims she was at the team hotel at the time.

I'm no Sherlock Holmes but if I were looking for a top pro cyclist the day before a top pro cycling event, the team hotel is probably the first place I'd visit.


----------



## Strathlubnaig (2 Aug 2016)

smutchin said:


> The disputed missed test was the day before the Vargada World Cup TTT. She claims she was at the team hotel at the time.
> 
> I'm no Sherlock Holmes but if I were looking for a top pro cyclist the day before a top pro cycling event, the team hotel is probably the first place I'd visit.


One of the three missed tests was accepted as a procedural failure by the WADA people, so she has escaped a ban, but her coat is on a shaky nail. No excuses really, the system is farly easy to follow properly, I hear.


----------



## Flying_Monkey (2 Aug 2016)

Strathlubnaig said:


> One of the three missed tests was accepted as a procedural failure by the WADA people, so she has escaped a ban, but her coat is on a shaky nail. No excuses really, the system is farly easy to follow properly, I hear.



The point was that she was exactly where she was supposed to be, asleep, but the official concerned only tried calling the room and no other way of waking her up, and on that basis decided she wasn't there. The ban was dismissed on this basis alone. You're allowed to have two wearabouts misses in any given 12 month period, so they aren't an issue if you don't have a third.


----------



## Strathlubnaig (2 Aug 2016)

Flying_Monkey said:


> The point was that she was exactly where she was supposed to be, asleep, but the official concerned only tried calling the room and no other way of waking her up, and on that basis decided she wasn't there. The ban was dismissed on this basis alone. You're allowed to have two wearabouts misses in any given 12 month period, so they aren't an issue if you don't have a third.


At what point did she appeal the first Miss I wonder ? After the second or the third ? Even if she appealed right away and it was under review, she should have been a lot more on the ball after that. Could do better.


----------



## HF2300 (2 Aug 2016)

A UKAD spokeswoman apparently said "_an athlete can accrue a combination of three missed tests or filing failures in 12 months under the World Anti-Doping Code_" (rather than two) - so some confusion there. The spokeswoman also talked about a two year ban, rather than four.

The 'administrative failure' was an error, but the last was apparently a last minute change of plans due to a serious illness in the family, and to be honest I can understand anyone not being on the ball in such circumstances - that's why the two misses exemption exists.


----------



## smutchin (2 Aug 2016)

Strathlubnaig said:


> One of the three missed tests was accepted as a procedural failure by the WADA people,



Don't know about that. It was CAS who upheld the appeal rather than the anti-dopers 'accepting' it. Sounds like UKAD were going after her pretty hard, pushing for a four year ban.


----------



## SWSteve (2 Aug 2016)

So missing La Course and Le Classique were silent bans, where she was pending review. 

All seems a bit odd, like there's a true trail of events in the reports, but you would need to look really hard to find it.


----------



## HF2300 (2 Aug 2016)

ItsSteveLovell said:


> So missing La Course and Le Classique were silent bans, where she was pending review.



Boels Dolmans didn't enter the Ride London Classique due to a shortage of riders (though in hindsight I guess that might be interpreted as a shortage of a lead rider).


----------



## smutchin (2 Aug 2016)

I thought the Boels-Dolman's no-show was odd but apparently women's teams aren't obliged to enter WorldTour events like the men's teams are.



ItsSteveLovell said:


> So missing La Course and Le Classique were silent bans, where she was pending review.



Riders withdrawing from races at the last minute due to 'illness' happens all the time. It's only fair that it isn't reported as a doping ban while the case is under appeal.


----------



## rich p (2 Aug 2016)

I'm disappointed in Lizzie Armitstead. After one missed test you should be extra vigilant and not to appeal the first failure seems bizarre or negligent.
Some mud has always stuck to Christine Ohorigou.


----------



## HF2300 (2 Aug 2016)

I wonder if the irregularities over the first missed test were not felt to be a problem until the third missed test and the threat of a ban. I suspect if it was me I'd have been annoyed about it but let it slide, not thinking it might become important later.


----------



## rich p (2 Aug 2016)

HF2300 said:


> I wonder if the irregularities over the first missed test were not felt to be a problem until the third missed test and the threat of a ban. I suspect if it was me I'd have been annoyed about it but let it slide, not thinking it might become important later.


If you were two tests down and one cock up away from disaster, I'd have thought that she or BC would have been shaken into action. Negligent at least.


----------



## smutchin (2 Aug 2016)

rich p said:


> not to appeal the first failure seems bizarre or negligent.



To be fair, we don't really know much about what has gone on behind the scenes. My guess would be that she made an appeal to UKAD at the time that was rejected and it's only now CAS have got involved that it has come to light.



> Some mud has always stuck to Christine Ohorigou.



The public have never warmed to Ohuruogu and we might speculate on the reasons for that. The fact that she received her ban before she'd really achieved anything of note won't help.


----------



## Rustybucket (2 Aug 2016)

She still missed another 2 tests? What happened with them? Sounds dodgy to me...


----------



## HF2300 (2 Aug 2016)

Rustybucket said:


> She still missed another 2 tests? What happened with them? Sounds dodgy to me...



First test was dismissed by CAS because UKAD did not comply with their own procedures - the tester was felt not to have made a serious attempt to contact her. Second test was missed for 'administrative reasons' - for which read someone didn't do something they should have, such as telling UKAD her whereabouts. She's said that's a fair cop.

Third test was because she wasn't available when she said due to a last minute family emergency, which is the sort of thing the missed test procedure is there for - and to be honest, something I have every sympathy for; having had to rush across country myself because of a sudden serious illness in the family, I can see that getting online and reporting whereabouts, even for someone to whom it's routine, might not be the first thing on your mind.


----------



## rich p (2 Aug 2016)

To lose one parent test may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose both looks like carelessness.'



HF2300 said:


> Third test was because she wasn't available when she said due to a last minute family emergency, which is the sort of thing the missed test procedure is there for - and to be honest, something I have every sympathy for; having had to rush across country myself because of a sudden serious illness in the family, I can see that getting online and reporting whereabouts, even for someone to whom it's routine, might not be the first thing on your mind.


I'm not saying she is a doper and I'm not saying that we wouldn't be thinking of other things at a time of emergency, but she is a professional athlete and well aware of the procedures and constant testing - but this was a career ending issue.
As I said, very negligent at least.


----------



## coffeejo (2 Aug 2016)

I would imagine it's come as a massive wake up call to her, BC and other cyclists (though it seems to me to be like one of those rides where you suffer more punctures than you do spare tubes and patches).


----------



## Dogtrousers (2 Aug 2016)

Shouldn't really be a wake-up call. They should be awake already. I seem to remember reading in a Cav pulp autobiog about him missing a test which resulted in him firing his assistant who fouled up the whereabouts reporting.


----------



## 400bhp (2 Aug 2016)

Strathlubnaig said:


> At what point did she appeal the first Miss I wonder ? After the second or the third ? Even if she appealed right away and it was under review, she should have been a lot more on the ball after that. Could do better.



I guess we don't know the rules of appeal? Perhaps you can't appeal until you are up to three.

Really poor show by Amistead (if she is clean).


----------



## smutchin (2 Aug 2016)

rich p said:


> I'm not saying that we wouldn't be thinking of other things at a time of emergency, but she is a professional athlete and well aware of the procedures and constant testing - but this was a career ending issue.
> As I said, very negligent at least.



It's unfortunate that the day of the emergency just happened to be the same day the tester decided to visit.

Makes you wonder how often riders forget to update their whereabouts in similar circumstances but get away with it. Probably leads to a bit of complacency.


----------



## Buddfox (2 Aug 2016)

I'm with Rich P on this. I just don't get how you can miss three tests and I think it is always suspicious.

You miss one, you must already be nervous, because the consequences are severe. Miss two? Almost the only thing I'd be thinking about is not missing the third. Family emergency or no, it's careless in the extreme and fans should be expected to presume that she was in fact up to no good. Very disappointed. Last minute changes in your schedule won't be happening all the time - the rigours of a professional training programme I am sure would see to that - so it doesn't seem that much to ask.


----------



## rich p (2 Aug 2016)

smutchin said:


> It's unfortunate that the day of the emergency just happened to be the same day the tester decided to visit.
> 
> Makes you wonder how often riders forget to update their whereabouts in similar circumstances but get away with it. Probably leads to a bit of complacency.


Indeed. It looks unfortunate to us, but I suspect if she was a Katusha rider we'd be crying 'the dog ate my homework' foul.
It would be illuminating if we knew how many cyclists missed one or two tests per annum. If it's a lot then it would help to indicate how hard compliance with the whereabouts testing is. 
If it's only a few, then it flags up Lizzie as complacent or dodgy.
I'll settle for complacently negligent but that's because she's a Brit and looks trustworthy!


----------



## smutchin (2 Aug 2016)

rich p said:


> It would be illuminating if we knew how many cyclists missed one or two tests per annum.



I don't know the numbers but I'm sure I remember Cav once mentioning in an interview that he was on two strikes. It's probably a lot more than we know about.

Updating your whereabouts is easy but it's another admin task and we're all human... This is not a valid excuse for a pro athlete.


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## S-Express (2 Aug 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> Shouldn't really be a wake-up call. They should be awake already



^^ this. Also, I don't buy the whole 'phone was turned off' thing. Nobody does that any more, especially a pro athlete with sponsor demands, personal appearances, and instagram accounts to keep up to date.


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## fimm (2 Aug 2016)

Didn't Froome miss a test recently because the hotel wouldn't let the testers disturb him?


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## rich p (2 Aug 2016)

smutchin said:


> I don't know the numbers but I'm sure I remember Cav once mentioning in an interview that he was on two strikes. It's probably a lot more than we know about.
> 
> Updating your whereabouts is easy but it's another admin task and we're all human... This is not a valid excuse for a pro athlete.


I read an interview with Chris Froome earlier this year where he spoke about how rigorous he was about the system. For one thing, he made sure that the hotel staff were to wake him if anyone turned up at any time, day or night. I'll look for it when I finish work


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## rich p (2 Aug 2016)

fimm said:


> Didn't Froome miss a test recently because the hotel wouldn't let the testers disturb him?


Cross posted fimm! We need to check up our facts


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## fimm (2 Aug 2016)

rich p said:


> Cross posted fimm! We need to check up our facts



I wouldn't describe my post as "fact", more "something vaguely remembered or mis-remembered from something I read on the internet somewhere..."


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## smutchin (2 Aug 2016)

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/jun/24/chris-froome-missed-drug-test-tour-de-france

“I had a couple of recovery days and I took my wife down to quite an exclusive hotel in Italy,” said Froome, who was forced to abandon last year’s Tour through injury after two crashes on stage five. “On the first morning the authorities pitched up at seven and the hotel staff actually wouldn’t give them access to our room and also refused to let them call up.

“So when we came down for breakfast at 8.30, they basically just said to us: ‘OK, the anti-doping guys were here to test you this morning but it’s our hotel policy not to let them disturb our clients or let anyone disturb our clients’. So that was a hugely frustrating situation for me.”

“I did appeal to try and explain the circumstances to the authorities but at the end of the day I take full responsibility for that case,” said Froome, who has previously claimed to have been tested more than 30 times in one three-week period.

“I should have been more proactive in letting the hotel know this was a possibility that I could be tested. I’ve certainly learned my lesson there. I’ve stayed in hotels all over the world and I’ve been tested all over the world without any issues at all. Unfortunately I just didn’t see this one coming but it’s opened my eyes and I’m definitely going to be more pro-active in the future. It’s always the athlete’s responsibility to make sure he or she is available for testing.”


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## smutchin (2 Aug 2016)

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2012/jan/06/mark-cavendish-missed-drugs-test

"I missed an out of competition test last April," Cavendish, the Olympic road race favourite, said. "It was my mistake. I was with a film crew for the BBC and Giro d'Italia on Mount Etna. It was a simple, genuine administrative error. Of course I totally understand the importance of testing in sport. I was tested by the UCI [cycling's world governing body] a couple of weeks before that and twice in the fortnight after and had around 60 tests in all last year. It's part of the job and it's my job to make sure I don't miss another."


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## smutchin (2 Aug 2016)

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/offredo-finds-whereabouts-ban-too-strict/

Offredo said that he has “learned a lot from this. I have become more organized and have a better view of things around me. Besides, I found out who I can trust.”

One of those he can trust is his team, to which he gives partial blame for his ban. “I have received great support from the team. Remember that one breach of the notification requirement was not just my fault. It may be the rider who has the responsibility, but when there is a change in the race program, the team usually makes the report.


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## smutchin (2 Aug 2016)

HF2300 said:


> A UKAD spokeswoman apparently said "_an athlete can accrue a combination of three missed tests or filing failures in 12 months under the World Anti-Doping Code_" (rather than two) - so some confusion there.





400bhp said:


> I guess we don't know the rules of appeal?


















http://www.ukad.org.uk/resources/document/uk-anti-doping-rules


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## oldroadman (2 Aug 2016)

400bhp said:


> I guess we don't know the rules of appeal? Perhaps you can't appeal until you are up to three.
> 
> Really poor show by Amistead *(if she is clean*).


And there is no reason to believe this is not the case.


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## oldroadman (2 Aug 2016)

S-Express said:


> ^^ this. Also, I don't buy the whole 'phone was turned off' thing. Nobody does that any more, especially a pro athlete with sponsor demands, personal appearances, and instagram accounts to keep up to date.


 Really? Then explain how a rider gets rest/sleep if the wretched phone rings all the time. The old days thing was to take the phone off the hook in the room and put up the "ne pas deranger" sign on the door. Woe betide anyone who tried to disturb. Agents and representatives have to deal with calls, that's what they get their percentage for. The UKAD tester could have called the agent/manager in an effort to get contact, if they didn't have a list of these people then they are at the least not doing their job properly. They have to put in a bit of effort to locate people, it's not a one way deal.


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## HF2300 (2 Aug 2016)

rich p said:


> Indeed. It looks unfortunate to us, but I suspect if she was a Katusha rider we'd be crying 'the dog ate my homework' foul ... I'll settle for complacently negligent but that's because she's a Brit and looks trustworthy!



I must admit this has been in the back of my mind during this discussion. I think when looking at these cases and crying foul (or not) you do tend to make a judgement on all the circumstances and behaviour, though, not just the missed test itself - or I try, anyway.



rich p said:


> It would be illuminating if we knew how many cyclists missed one or two tests per annum. If it's a lot then it would help to indicate how hard compliance with the whereabouts testing is.



... there have been a fair number of cases of missed tests, not just in cycling, due to tester error or lack of diligence in trying to track down the athlete and also due to athlete error of one sort or another; and there has been some criticism of the system (though I think perhaps less recently?)


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## S-Express (2 Aug 2016)

oldroadman said:


> Really? Then explain how a rider gets rest/sleep if the wretched phone rings all the time.



You put it on silent.


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## DogTired (2 Aug 2016)

rich p said:


> I read an interview with Chris Froome earlier this year where he spoke about how rigorous he was about the system. For one thing, he made sure that the hotel staff were to wake him if anyone turned up at any time, day or night. I'll look for it when I finish work



There's a bit on it here: http://www.itv.com/news/2015-06-25/froome-admits-he-missed-drugs-test-and-blames-hotel-staff/

Can't find any thing on the CAS judgement of Armistead on the CAS web-site, but Cycling weekly say that the disputed test was the first one and the two undisputed missed tests came after that. She's a lucky girl to have British Cycling fight her corner and cancel the first on a technicality.

The issue is the rules are there to protect clean athletes. This rule isnt about proving PED use, its about missing 3 tests - if you do you're banned. There's a huge spotlight on doping in cycling (from a UK perspective British Cycling too) and Olympic participation at the moment. If this was a Russian athlete the pitchforks would be out. Armistead is the world road cycling champion, not messing up the doping tests should be part of the professional game.

Some people think Froome dopes. Some people think Armstrong is innocent. In between is a big grey area. Where Armistead fits at the moment is ultimately down to personal belief. And thats not professional.


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## HF2300 (2 Aug 2016)

S-Express said:


> You put it on silent.



In which case a sleeping athlete might not hear it...?


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## S-Express (2 Aug 2016)

HF2300 said:


> In which case a sleeping athlete might not hear it...?



Nobody is suggesting calling her at 3am for a sample.


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## oldroadman (2 Aug 2016)

S-Express said:


> You put it on silent.


Exactly. Hotels don't give out room numbers for security and privacy reasons. Testers surely have other ways of making contact, where a team is in a hotel, contact the DS. Not difficult!


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## oldroadman (2 Aug 2016)

S-Express said:


> Nobody is suggesting calling her at 3am for a sample.


The vampires (blood testers checking h-crit) come with their needles and centrifuges at 0600. No fun when you got to sleep at 2300 and expect a rest until at least 0900.


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## S-Express (2 Aug 2016)

oldroadman said:


> Exactly. Hotels don't give out room numbers for security and privacy reasons. Testers surely have other ways of making contact, where a team is in a hotel, contact the DS. Not difficult!



Nothing to stop the front desk putting a call up to the room though. No privacy issue there. My point about the mobile phone is that someone in her position (ie a world class athlete in demand from a lot of different directions) will be checking her phone all the time (except for when she's on the bike, obviously).


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## Milkfloat (2 Aug 2016)

I wonder when WADA et al will get with modern technology. A text message and answerphone is last centuries technology. Tracking a mobile phone is so much easier and would help the situation so much. Yes you would still need to set out your plans so that the testers are not chasing around everywhere, but it would save a lot of hassle if they could actually track you before they come knocking.


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## Buddfox (2 Aug 2016)

A lot of this debate about hotels, phones on silent, not being called up is great when we're talking about your first missed test, but after two I think you give up your right to get a good night's sleep every night. At that point, the onus is on you as the athlete to make sure there are no more screw-ups. I am sure we can all accept that one test might get missed occasionally - but the reason why the ban comes for three is there is no excuse for it to be habitual. Don't want to get woken up at 6am having got to bed at 11pm? Don't miss two other tests...


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## mjr (2 Aug 2016)

oldroadman said:


> The vampires (blood testers checking h-crit) come with their needles and centrifuges at 0600. No fun when you got to sleep at 2300 and expect a rest until at least 0900.


And it would be a good way for testers to hinder an athlete that they don't want to win for any reason.



Buddfox said:


> I am sure we can all accept that one test might get missed occasionally - but the reason why the ban comes for three is there is no excuse for it to be habitual. Don't want to get woken up at 6am having got to bed at 11pm? Don't miss two other tests...


Yeah, but at what point do you want athletes to worry about the admin and stress of appealing a missed test? Do they regard one or two disputable missed tests as within tolerance, or must they start appealing every one and burn more resources of the anti-doping authorities which may mean a cheating competitor of theirs goes untested some time when they could have been caught?

One thing I'm not clear about from the rules excerpt and I don't have time to dig through the definitions to understand is: does a "Filing Failure" or "Missed Test" count as a "decision" that can be appealed to NADP (what's that?) or CAS, or is only a ban a "decision"?


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## rich p (2 Aug 2016)

S-Express said:


> Nobody is suggesting calling her at 3am for a sample.


Night time testing was used before (and during?) the 2015 TdF. I'm not sure whether it's been abandoned or not.


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## smutchin (2 Aug 2016)

mjray said:


> One thing I'm not clear about from the rules excerpt and I don't have time to dig through the definitions to understand is: does a "Filing Failure" or "Missed Test" count as a "decision" that can be appealed to NADP (what's that?) or CAS, or is only a ban a "decision"?













As per Article 2, the athlete may request an "administrative review" of each Whereabouts Failure. You would _assume_ such a request was made by Armitstead or her representatives after the first missed test, but the independent reviewer apparently decided in UKAD's favour and the Whereabouts Failure was thus recorded against her. Or maybe she didn't request the review, imagining that she wouldn't be so careless as to miss two subsequent tests within the following 12 months.

This is not the same as an appeal to CAS, which, if I've understood correctly, can only be made after a formal charge of a doping violation (ie after the third missed test, not after the first one, since one missed test does not in itself constitute a doping violation, hence there is nothing to appeal against).

I hope she is sincere in her statement that she wants to work with UKAD to find ways to avoid such miscommunications in future. It would be in the interests of both the athlete and the anti-doping authorities to prevent these situations arising, which are embarrassing for both sides. If the 20th August 2015 test had gone off as planned, we would still be none the wiser to the subsequent missed tests. I've seen a lot of ignorant foaming and frothing on facebook about this, suggesting a "cover up" to prevent the missed tests being reported in the media before today. The UKAD rules make very clear they will not publish details of doping charges before the final outcome is known. As has been discussed earlier, those of us who follow pro cycling regularly will be well aware of the late withdrawals from races due to mysterious "illness" that happen all the time, and may draw inferences from them - as we might have done from Armitstead's late withdrawal from La Course - but it seems only fair to me that any suggestions of wrongdoing should be kept out of the public spotlight until a formal charge is confirmed because of the serious damage they can do to an athlete's reputation. Individual missed tests must be fairly common.


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## mjr (2 Aug 2016)

smutchin said:


> Or maybe she didn't request the review, imagining that *she wouldn't be so careless* as to miss two subsequent tests within the following 12 months.


Trouble is, it's not only that, is it? She'd also need to imagine that the testers won't be so careless as to make another similarly pathetic attempt to find her and I'm not sure why she'd do that after they'd done it once... so I suspect there was a review which ruled against her.

Edit: as later posts show, she didn't request a review  Far too much trust in the testers, no faith in the reviewers, or what?


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## fimm (2 Aug 2016)

smutchin said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/jun/24/chris-froome-missed-drug-test-tour-de-france
> Quoting Chris Froome:
> “<snip> ... it’s opened my eyes and I’m definitely going to be more pro-active in the future. It’s always the athlete’s responsibility to make sure he or she is available for testing.”


Looks like we were both partly right - my vague memory of one missed test and @smutchin 's of Froome saying he'll be more pro-active in instructions to hotel staff in future.


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## smutchin (2 Aug 2016)

mjray said:


> I suspect there was a review which ruled against her.



Yes, I suspect so too. With so much at stake, it would be odd not to use any avenue of redress available to you.

So, assuming she did request a review, it's interesting that the independent reviewer appointed by UKAD came to a different conclusion to the CAS panel. But again, we don't know the reasons for that, all we have is speculation...

And I'm assuming I've interpreted the rules correctly too!


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## smutchin (2 Aug 2016)

By the way, the nadp.co.uk address given in the UKAD rulebook is a broken link. Here's the correct url:
https://www.sportresolutions.co.uk/services/national-anti-doping-panel

If I've understood correctly, this is the body that handles appeals from athletes competing at national level or lower. CAS is for athletes competing internationally.


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## smutchin (2 Aug 2016)

mjray said:


> Trouble is, it's not only that, is it? She'd also need to imagine that the testers won't be so careless as to make another similarly pathetic attempt to find her and I'm not sure why she'd do that after they'd done it once... so I suspect there was a review which ruled against her.



The plot thickens...

http://www.cyclist.co.uk/news/1526/...-rio-after-winning-appeal-against-anti-doping



> A number of questions remain though. If Armitstead believed she was not at fault for the first whereabouts failure, why did she not dispute it at the time?
> 
> 'When UKAD asserts a Whereabouts Failure against an athlete, the athlete has the opportunity to challenge the apparent Whereabouts Failure,' a second statement from UKAD reads.
> 
> 'Ms Armitstead chose not to challenge the first and second Whereabouts Failures at the time they were asserted against her. At the CAS hearing, Ms Armitstead raised a defence in relation to the first Whereabouts Failure, which was accepted by the Panel. We are awaiting the Reasoned Decision from the CAS Panel as to why the first Whereabouts Failure was not upheld.'


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## smutchin (2 Aug 2016)

Full statement:
http://www.ukad.org.uk/news/article/ukad-statement-on-cas-hearing-against-elizabeth-armitstead/


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## smutchin (2 Aug 2016)

rich p said:


> Night time testing was used before (and during?) the 2015 TdF. I'm not sure whether it's been abandoned or not.



"Under the World Anti-Doping Code an athlete may be required to provide a sample at any time and at any place, including the middle of the night, without advanced notice. However, testing authorities recognise that regularly testing athletes in the middle of the night may not be fair, so to test an athlete between the hours of 23:00 and 06:00, UKAD would need to have serious and specific suspicions that an athlete may be engaged in doping."

https://cleansportblog.wordpress.com/2015/11/13/understanding-the-whereabouts-system/


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## Pro Tour Punditry (2 Aug 2016)

A summary from inrng
http://inrng.com/2016/08/armitstead-whereabouts-ukad-british-cycling/


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## User169 (2 Aug 2016)

mjray said:


> Trouble is, it's not only that, is it? She'd also need to imagine that the testers won't be so careless as to make another similarly pathetic attempt to find her and I'm not sure why she'd do that after they'd done it once... so I suspect there was a review which ruled against her.



UKAD have said that Armitstead did not request review of either of the first two whereabouts failures.


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## rich p (2 Aug 2016)

The thing is that if you're listed on the Adams doodah as being available from 6am to 7 am, then you have no right to have your phone on silent. It should also be a priority that you inform hotel staff that you wish to be woken if a tester arrives.
It's really no excuse to say my phone was on silent. The tester apparently tried to gain access to the room but was refused, he tried phoning her with no answer and was deemed to not have tried hard enough.
What should have done - climbed a drainpipe?
Thrown gravel at the window? 
She has been very lucky to get away with it IMHO


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## Hont (2 Aug 2016)

rich p said:


> What should [he] have done?


The Daily Mail article quoted by inmg says: "Sportsmail understands the testing official did not explain to hotel staff why he wanted to know Armitstead’s room number."

Which, if true, certainly suggests he could have done more.



rich p said:


> She has been very lucky to get away with it IMHO


Agree. I imagine it's very easy to miss a single test, which is why it takes three for any sanction. If you've had two in the year already, I can't imagine being in any other mental state than completely OCD about it.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (2 Aug 2016)

I spotted in twitterland that John Armitstead (her dad) had tweeted saying she has had 16 tests this year, all of them clean - and Michael Rasmussen replied saying " Since when has clean tests been a proof of clean athletes. Must be resently. Very resent."


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## Pro Tour Punditry (2 Aug 2016)

And Ben Rumsby (Sports chap with the Torygraph) claims that in the last 12 months 36 UKAD-registered athletes missed one test, and six missed two. He's not provided names.


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## Dogtrousers (2 Aug 2016)

How common are missed tests? A statement from a different context

http://www.skysports.com/more-sport...tests-very-rare-say-ukad-on-farah-allegations

In the context of Mo Farah ... _UK Anti-Doping’s chief has told Sky Sports News HQ that it is *“very rare” *but *“not unheard of” *for an athlete to miss a drugs test, amid newspaper allegations against Mo Farah._


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## SWSteve (2 Aug 2016)

After first reading about this over breakfast, I couldn't help but remember in (IIRC) Tyler Hamiltons book when he talks about hiding from doping authorities when when they knocked on his door because he knew of glow times.

I'm not saying she should be in the same pot as Hamilton, but things should have been planned for better to say the least


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## mjr (2 Aug 2016)

Hont said:


> The Daily Mail article quoted by inmg says: "Sportsmail understands the testing official did not explain to hotel staff why he wanted to know Armitstead’s room number."
> 
> Which, if true, certainly suggests he could have done more.


What, like said "please could you let your guest know that I am a drug tester and she should hide any drugs/blood bag fridge/identical twin in the time it takes me to get to her room in order to get a nice big blackmail-level tip"? 

Maybe the tester should have contacted the DS or race direction (one of whom presumably booked the hotel) and got them to instruct the hotel to show them up?

I wouldn't hold not giving a reason against the tester, but it seems surprising that they don't give athletes a standard card to hand to hotel staff at check-in saying "I am a professional athlete subject to random testing. If anyone showing this sort of card [PICTURE] asks to visit me, please allow them to do so without further question." This isn't the first hotel which has refused to allow them to contact a guest.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (2 Aug 2016)

mjray said:


> What, like said "please could you let your guest know that I am a drug tester and she should hide any drugs/blood bag fridge/identical twin in the time it takes me to get to her room in order to get a nice big blackmail-level tip"?
> 
> Maybe the tester should have contacted the DS or race direction (one of whom presumably booked the hotel) and got them to instruct the hotel to show them up?
> 
> I wouldn't hold not giving a reason against the tester, but it seems surprising that they don't give athletes a standard card to hand to hotel staff at check-in saying "I am a professional athlete subject to random testing. If anyone showing this sort of card [PICTURE] asks to visit me, please allow them to do so without further question." This isn't the first hotel which has refused to allow them to contact a guest.


Or even just a quick "Listen I am subject to dope testing and have put down that I'll be here between 6am and 7am so if anyone pops in looking for me can you let them know what room I'm in, maybe get some ID from them first just in case they are international assassins..."

They could even throw in further mirth to the conversation by calling the dope control peeps "vampires" and making a "fang face" impression, possibly using a strange eastern European accent...


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## rich p (2 Aug 2016)

oldroadman said:


> The UKAD tester could have called the agent/manager in an effort to get contact, if they didn't have a list of these people then they are at the least not doing their job properly. They have to put in a bit of effort to locate people,


She could have been staying in a hotel on her own, nothing to do with cycling. And her manager/agent wouldn't have been around or, indeed, been able to phone her if her phone was on silent anyway.
Perhaps the manger has his phone on silent too, so he doesn't get an interrupted sleep at 6 am.

_"They have to put in a bit of effort to locate people",_
They did locate her - she was asleep upstairs. Not answering her phone.


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## Dogtrousers (2 Aug 2016)

Cycling news: More questions than answers in Armitstead case


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## lyn1 (2 Aug 2016)

oldroadman said:


> The vampires (blood testers checking h-crit) come with their needles and centrifuges at 0600. No fun when you got to sleep at 2300 and expect a rest until at least 0900.


That's the bit I do not understand. Presumably this was an out of competition blood test for the passport. The athlete picks the 1 hour slot. so if you regularly want to sleep beyond 6 am then pick a slightly later one. Like many riders my lad has 7 am-8 am to avoid the issue you raise, as he is usually getting up for breakfast then, irrespective of whether he is at home or travelling. Selecting a time that causes you to become less easily contactable because you have to turn off your phone does not seem to make sense. Whilst it may not contravene the regs it is not helpful.


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## Dogtrousers (2 Aug 2016)

Nicole Cooke is not impressed http://nicolecooke.com/news/


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## mjr (2 Aug 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> Nicole Cooke is not impressed http://nicolecooke.com/news/


A more permanent link might be http://nicolecooke.com/my-views-on-lizzie-armitstead-missing-3-out-of-competition-drugs-tests/ but despite the title and a generally negative tone towards athletes missing tests, it doesn't look to me like she gives her views on Lizzie Armitstead's case in particular.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (2 Aug 2016)

Nicole Cooke is 100% correct


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## Crackle (2 Aug 2016)

It's disappointing to read this about Armitstead and she's gone down a lot in my estimation.


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## Mike_P (2 Aug 2016)

Hont said:


> The Daily Mail article quoted by inmg says: "Sportsmail understands the testing official did not explain to hotel staff why he wanted to know Armitstead’s room number."
> 
> Which, if true, certainly suggests he could have done more


Heard the same on 5 Live this morning along with an observation of what hotel would let a strange man into a room occupied by a single lady. Maybe their are issues for not stating the purpose of the visit as presumably the less sensible press would have field day.


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## rich p (2 Aug 2016)

Mike_P said:


> Heard the same on 5 Live this morning along with an observation of what hotel would let a strange man into a room occupied by a single lady. Maybe their are issues for not stating the purpose of the visit as presumably the less sensible press would have field day.


With respect, I think you're missing the point. She has told UKAD that she will be available for testing between the hours of 6am and 7am on that particular day. The onus is on her to be accessible.


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## Dogtrousers (2 Aug 2016)

mjray said:


> A more permanent link might be http://nicolecooke.com/my-views-on-lizzie-armitstead-missing-3-out-of-competition-drugs-tests/ but despite the title and a generally negative tone towards athletes missing tests,* it doesn't look to me like she gives her views on Lizzie Armitstead's case in particular.*


I think what she doesn't say speaks volumes.

Thanks for the permanent link btw. Did it on my phone so a bit ham fisted.


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## DogTired (2 Aug 2016)

Mike_P said:


> Heard the same on 5 Live this morning along with an observation of what hotel would let a strange man into a room occupied by a single lady. Maybe their are issues for not stating the purpose of the visit as presumably the less sensible press would have field day.



I'll wait for the report from CAS (disappointing that this isnt available - would do everyone a favour before the olympics) - this sounds like its being written by the winning barrister. Its their principal job to cast doubt on opposing actions and testimony. I don't know the protocol and what degree of confidentiality a tester would use. making it loud, clear and plain that you're doing a drugs tests on one of the occupants wouldn't be great either.

Rich P has it nailed - she said she'd be accessible but wasn't. And it isn't a strange man - its a drugs tester from a well defined protocol that she's signed up to.


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## mjr (2 Aug 2016)

If it's such a well defined protocol, can anyone find it online?


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## DogTired (2 Aug 2016)

mjray said:


> If it's such a well defined protocol, can anyone find it online?



I refer the honourable gentleman to Smutches post #1131!


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## rich p (2 Aug 2016)

A bit of a Twitter storm brewing now with Ferrand Prevot calling it shameful.
LA's fiancé, Sky's Philip Deignan, accuses Ferrand Prevot of being equally shameful by sleeping with Julien Absalon.
This one could run and run!


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## mjr (2 Aug 2016)

DogTired said:


> I refer the honourable gentleman to Smutches post #1131!


No post numbers visible on mobiles, but do you mean the one with the rules? Do the rules contain the protocol too?


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## DogTired (2 Aug 2016)

rich p said:


> A bit of a Twitter storm brewing now with Ferrand Prevot calling it shameful.
> LA's fiancé, Sky's Philip Deignan, accuses Ferrand Prevot of being equally shameful by sleeping with Julien Absalon.
> This one could run and run!



I dont know why but this quite made me snigger!


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## DogTired (2 Aug 2016)

mjray said:


> No post numbers visible on mobiles, but do you mean the one with the rules? Do the rules contain the protocol too?



http://www.ukad.org.uk/resources/document/uk-anti-doping-rules

http://www.ukad.org.uk/athletes/performance/drug-test


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## 400bhp (2 Aug 2016)

It does not stack up to me.

An athlete so festidious to do the training, put the hours in, be very specific about what she eats/sleeps etc etc, is so lacksadaisacal to miss three tests.

I just aint buying it - sorry.


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## psmiffy (2 Aug 2016)

Actually I glad she got away with it - Im not condoning missing the tests - the tests and the wherabouts are very necessary if doping is to be brought under control - however, I couldnt live my life having to account for where I am every day - and Im not exactly an international traveller - It is their choice to be a professional athlete - and top sportspersons (maybe not a lot of women - but that is a discussion for another day) make a good living out of it - and they knew the rules when they signed up - to my mind it is a storm in a tea cup - missing tests is not the same as failing a test - a four year ban (or even the two that some sources quote) would have sent out a warning to the rest but in my mind would have been harsh - better for life bans from the Olympics for failing any test (as BOC tried and failed to impose) and longer bans in competition - including more life bans - for proven repeat dopers (and any coach caught supplying) both at amateur and pro level.


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## fossyant (2 Aug 2016)

Stupidity at the very minimum.

There is a female MTBer none too happy as they struggled to get a second jersey, and lots of money probably went on legal fees for this.


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## ColinJ (2 Aug 2016)

psmiffy said:


> to my mind it is a storm in a tea cup - missing tests is not the same as failing a test - a four year ban (or even the two that some sources quote) would have sent out a warning to the rest but in my mind would have been harsh - better for life bans from the Olympics for failing any test (as BOC tried and failed to impose) and longer bans in competition - including more life bans - for proven repeat dopers (and any coach caught supplying) both at amateur and pro level.


How would you ever fail a test if you made sure that you missed them!


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## S-Express (2 Aug 2016)

psmiffy said:


> missing tests is not the same as failing a test



Effectively, it is.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (2 Aug 2016)

psmiffy said:


> ...the tests and the wherabouts are very necessary if doping is to be brought under control...


Very necessary but not that important?


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## psmiffy (2 Aug 2016)

according to the rules but not in my opinion - it should be a year ban for three strikes - 2 years if you repeat etc - Anti doping agencies need to be given more support and budgets from the national federation so that - more testing can be carried out across all sports - testing laboratories can all have the latest dohicky kit - Berties beef incident only came to light because his sample was sent to Koln where they had the latest GCMS-ICP with new sup er duper low detection limits - more research needs to be funded into both the detection of new drugs/doping strategies and the limitations of the blood passport - plus need to spend more on actually making the system accountable - more blind tests - laboratory QA monitoring etc


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## Pro Tour Punditry (2 Aug 2016)

Not a bad take on it. But I am still puzzled by the "interrupting my sleep" references - tell your partner not to pick early times then you twonk.
http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/08/news/domestique-partner-dealing-whereabouts_416879


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## Pro Tour Punditry (2 Aug 2016)

psmiffy said:


> according to the rules but not in my opinion



How can they be necessary but not important? That makes no sense.


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## psmiffy (2 Aug 2016)

I didn't say they were not important - I said they were necessary, however I also said they shouldn't be given the same weighting as a failed test - whats important is to catch actual dopers and the anti doping agencies should be given the support and funds to do that - whether it be by testing or intelligence gathering - and I also said when they are caught they should be hammered.


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## psmiffy (2 Aug 2016)

Oh - and did I say that I am glad she got off


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## Pro Tour Punditry (3 Aug 2016)

psmiffy said:


> Oh - and did I say that I am glad she got off


You've obviously been licking the skin of rare newts (again)


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## Strathlubnaig (3 Aug 2016)

psmiffy said:


> Actually I glad she got away with it - Im not condoning missing the tests - the tests and the wherabouts are very necessary if doping is to be brought under control - however, I couldnt live my life having to account for where I am every day - and Im not exactly an international traveller - It is their choice to be a professional athlete - and top sportspersons (maybe not a lot of women - but that is a discussion for another day) make a good living out of it - and they knew the rules when they signed up - to my mind it is a storm in a tea cup - missing tests is not the same as failing a test - a four year ban (or even the two that some sources quote) would have sent out a warning to the rest but in my mind would have been harsh - better for life bans from the Olympics for failing any test (as BOC tried and failed to impose) and longer bans in competition - including more life bans - for proven repeat dopers (and any coach caught supplying) both at amateur and pro level.


Missing a test may not be in the same league as failing a test, of course, but habitually missing them obviously raises flags. The same with an athlete who habitually uses the one hour window to alert the testers they will not be available, such occasions will of course arise but multiple times leads to greater targeting of that individual as it also raises flags. Armistead cocked up and should have known better, assuming she has nothing to hide of course, and in fact the move to 3 misses in 12 months from the previous 18 months only works in the athletes favour.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (3 Aug 2016)

Oops!
"(the) missed test occurred last August while Armitstead was staying in a Swedish hotel, having failed to provide her room number to anti-doping authorities.

It emerged last night she did so after British Cycling sent an email to all riders in February last year telling them to include room numbers on their whereabouts information, advice also given on the website of UK Anti-Doping."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/olympics...arned-by-british-cycling-before-missed-drugs/


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## psmiffy (3 Aug 2016)

Strathlubnaig said:


> Missing a test may not be in the same league as failing a test, of course, but habitually missing them obviously raises flags. The same with an athlete who habitually uses the one hour window to alert the testers they will not be available, such occasions will of course arise but multiple times leads to greater targeting of that individual as it also raises flags. Armistead cocked up and should have known better, assuming she has nothing to hide of course, and in fact the move to 3 misses in 12 months from the previous 18 months only works in the athletes favour.



Totally agree - and when there are missed tests the athlete should be subjected to targeted testing over and above the normal regime.both in an out of competition.


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## PaulB (3 Aug 2016)

There's a famous British gold-medal winning athlete who, when the drug testers knocked, went on the missing too often for it to be 'unfortunate' but that was in the 80s so nothing's said about that gold-medal winning athlete now. And no, I'm not referring to Linford Christie on this one.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (3 Aug 2016)

psmiffy said:


> Totally agree - and when there are missed tests the athlete should be subjected to targeted testing over and above the normal regime.both in an out of competition.



I'm not sure if any information is available regarding whether she was subject to "additional" testing.

I realise the following is based on assumption and limited information, however if we take the tweet from her father yesterday, stating she had been tested 16 times this year, then possibly not; in 2016 she has won 5 one-day races, a stage of The Women's Tour and wore the leaders jersey in The Women's Tour for 3 days (one being the same day she won the stage), so that's 8 times I would expect her to have been tested; which leaves another 8 tests, one of which we know she had the day after her first missed test. So 7 tests does not seem to me to be a rigorous approach was taken towards targeting her.

Early morning, only one coffee consumed musing...


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## Pro Tour Punditry (3 Aug 2016)

Just spotted that Armitstead's autobiography is due to be published in 5 weeks time, 8th September






Hope she makes herself available for the book signings...


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## Pro Tour Punditry (3 Aug 2016)

There's a complete silence from Boels-Dolmans in twitterland. Not a thing.


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## psmiffy (3 Aug 2016)

Marmion said:


> So 7 tests does not seem to me to be a rigorous approach was taken towards targeting her.



Yup - I agree - however the funding the anti-doping agencies get from the national federations in comparison with the problem does not allow for more rigorous testing - although some would say that more than once a month - twice a month including competition testing borders on "rigorous" compared to testing carried out in other sports


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## rich p (3 Aug 2016)

Marmion said:


> I'm not sure if any information is available regarding whether she was subject to "additional" testing.
> 
> I realise the following is based on assumption and limited information, however if we take the tweet from her father yesterday, stating she had been tested 16 times this year, then possibly not; in 2016 she has won 5 one-day races, a stage of The Women's Tour and wore the leaders jersey in The Women's Tour for 3 days (one being the same day she won the stage), so that's 8 times I would expect her to have been tested; which leaves another 8 tests, one of which we know she had the day after her first missed test. So 7 tests does not seem to me to be a rigorous approach was taken towards targeting her.
> 
> Early morning, only one coffee consumed musing...



If that's the case then she was extremely unlucky to have the family crisis at the exact time of the random test. 
Three conclusions.
A huge unfortunate coincidence 
She actually was unavailable for testing on a lot more occasions but wasn't tested
Or something more sinister


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## SWSteve (3 Aug 2016)

is this a fair timeline for the first missed test:

Feb 15 - BC send all athletes, including LA, an email instructing to put room numbers where possible on the whereabouts form. 
Aug 15 - LA misses a test because she was asleep during her allocated hour, which she chose, and decided to not tell the hotel to be informed of testers arrived, and also didn't put a room number on the whereabouts form. 
Aug 16 - BC defend this missed test, stating there was nothing extra that could have been done, and the tester should have tried harder to contact her?


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## Pro Tour Punditry (3 Aug 2016)

Marmion said:


> I'm not sure if any information is available regarding whether she was subject to "additional" testing.
> 
> I realise the following is based on assumption and limited information, however if we take the tweet from her father yesterday, stating she had been tested 16 times this year, then possibly not; in 2016 she has won 5 one-day races, a stage of The Women's Tour and wore the leaders jersey in The Women's Tour for 3 days (one being the same day she won the stage), so that's 8 times I would expect her to have been tested; which leaves another 8 tests, one of which we know she had the day after her first missed test. So 7 tests does not seem to me to be a rigorous approach was taken towards targeting her.
> 
> Early morning, only one coffee consumed musing...


And she was tested 2 days ago, so that's another test accounted for: 
"I’m one of the most tested athletes in the world*,’ she said. ‘I’ve been tested at least 16 times this year. I was tested two days ago."
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/armitstead-i-am-a-clean-athlete-and-an-honest-person/

*Did she really say this?


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## SWSteve (3 Aug 2016)

Marmion said:


> And she was tested 2 days ago, so that's another test accounted for:
> "I’m one of the most tested athletes in the world*,’ she said. ‘I’ve been tested at least 16 times this year. I was tested two days ago."
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/armitstead-i-am-a-clean-athlete-and-an-honest-person/
> 
> *Did she really say this?




I think they've quoted the wrong LA


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## Buddfox (3 Aug 2016)

rich p said:


> If that's the case then she was extremely unlucky to have the family crisis at the exact time of the random test.
> Three conclusions.
> A huge unfortunate coincidence
> She actually was unavailable for testing on a lot more occasions but wasn't tested
> Or something more sinister



It feels mean-spirited to say it, but I wouldn't be surprised if the family emergency (whilst not fabricated) has been used as a desperation excuse as it occurred at in and around the timing of the third test. You miss the third test, you realise what might happen, you panic, it just so happens that someone in your family has been taken ill or had an accident (or perhaps even worse) and you are then able to use it as a justification.

In my heart of hearts, I still don't think she doped, but I'm sad we're discussing it about a British cyclist.


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## psmiffy (3 Aug 2016)

Buddfox said:


> but I'm sad we're discussing it about a British cyclist.



She missed three tests - if she had only missed two we wouldn't be discussing it - in fact we wern't - I saw somewhere that that there were another 36 athletes that had missed tests - what the real number is we don't know - in view of the number of people who get tested I suspect that it is rather more than that - If we take LA's explanations at face value - the circumstance conspired against her - life is like that


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## PaulB (3 Aug 2016)

Talking of Rio, wasn't he banned for eight months for missing ONE test?


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## smutchin (3 Aug 2016)

A doping control officer speaks...
http://cyclingtips.com/2016/08/dopi...mitstead-was-cleared-in-her-whereabouts-case/


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## smutchin (3 Aug 2016)

PaulB said:


> Talking of Rio, wasn't he banned for eight months for missing ONE test?



Different circumstances - he left the training ground knowing full well that the doping control officer was there waiting for him to give a sample.


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## DogTired (3 Aug 2016)

smutchin said:


> A doping control officer speaks...
> http://cyclingtips.com/2016/08/dopi...mitstead-was-cleared-in-her-whereabouts-case/



Unfortunately he speaks anonymously and has no more insight into the facts of this case than us public speculators. The information out there to date has mostly come from LAs side of things. CAS should have that report published ASAP, a lack of clarity always looks suspect.


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## PaulB (3 Aug 2016)

smutchin said:


> A doping control officer speaks...
> http://cyclingtips.com/2016/08/dopi...mitstead-was-cleared-in-her-whereabouts-case/


Yeah, right! No validity there as he wanted to remain anonymous.


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## oldroadman (3 Aug 2016)

|Well despite all the opinions of people (like me) who don't know the full facts, CAS has reviewed the case and made a decision. They are not any old people, they are all legals and know the rules of evidence. So the decision stands. One thing was interesting, the tester is constantly referred to as "he". Now as anyone who has any experience of the process will know, sampling from females has to be done by a female. To put it delicately, to ensure that the sample comes from the right place and embarrassment is minimum. So was there a male tester doing the paperwork element of the job, and if so did they have a female medic along to actually oversee the sample being produced? No-one knows, which is my point above. Plenty of uninformed opinion but no substance. My guess could be that 99% of posters have little or no idea of what actually happens unless they are testers or have been tested.
But let's not that get in the way of trial by internet.


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## 400bhp (3 Aug 2016)

Just tried to read LA's FB response.

It's a rambling mess in my view.


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## mjr (3 Aug 2016)

Marmion said:


> Not a bad take on it. But I am still puzzled by the "interrupting my sleep" references - tell your partner not to pick early times then you twonk.
> http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/08/news/domestique-partner-dealing-whereabouts_416879


How often are they allowed to vary which hour of the day they are available for random testing? Presumably too many 46-hour gaps (0000-0100 one day and 2300-0000 the next) would arouse suspicion.


Marmion said:


> "It emerged last night she did so after British Cycling sent an email to all riders in February last year telling them to include room numbers on their whereabouts information, advice also given on the website of UK Anti-Doping."
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/olympics...arned-by-british-cycling-before-missed-drugs/


If that's anything like most BC bulk emails, it may well have gone to the spam folder...



Marmion said:


> There's a complete silence from Boels-Dolmans in twitterland. Not a thing.


I seem to recall an interview (probably http://thecyclingpodcast.com/podcast/6-the-lizzie-armitstead-interview ) where LA said she liked being on Boels-Dolmans because they leave her alone out of race times and let her coach herself. That doesn't seem so clever to me any more.


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## Flying_Monkey (3 Aug 2016)

Nicole Cooke thinks it's bullshit and on the whole when Nicole Cooke calls bullshit, it's bullshit.


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## smutchin (3 Aug 2016)

oldroadman said:


> CAS has reviewed the case and made a decision. They are not any old people, they are all legals and know the rules of evidence. So the decision stands.



Quite. I've read a number of comments suggesting that she needs to be more transparent and release travel documents so we can all see the evidence, but presumably she has already provided this evidence to CAS and they are the people she is beholden to, not us. 



> One thing was interesting, the tester is constantly referred to as "he". Now as anyone who has any experience of the process will know, sampling from females has to be done by a female. To put it delicately, to ensure that the sample comes from the right place and embarrassment is minimum.



I'm glad you mentioned this because it is also something that has been bothering me - I've been wondering if it was just a default 'he' in the reports or if they actually did send a male tester.



Flying_Monkey said:


> Nicole Cooke thinks it's bullshit and on the whole when Nicole Cooke calls bullshit, it's bullshit.



Maybe, but I doubt Nicole Cooke knows any more detail about the specifics of this case than the rest of us. She's right in general terms that missing three tests is inexcusable but she's notably very guarded in what she says specifically about Lizzie Armitstead, and rightly so.


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## oldroadman (3 Aug 2016)

As published on Facebook by Lizzie A.
A brave and in my view, straightforward and honest women.
Whether the know-nothing opinion trolls will accept it, who knows. 
I just hope she is able to put in a brilliant performance in a few days, although I fear that all this pressure from media and internet comment may have had a bad effect on morale. Let's hope it has the opposite effect, energises her Yorkshire grit and use that wonderful talent to batter 'em all. 

I am writing this statement in my own words, something I have wanted to do from the very beginning. Understandably people have questions which I want to answer ...as openly and honest as I can. I hope people understand that speaking with journalists is a necessary part of my job, speaking directly to the public in a statement like this, which has not been ghost written or moulded by somebody else is un heard of. I want to take responsibility for this message, this is my life and not a game of headlines. I want to state the facts but also try to explain my situation further. I believe I owe this statement to sports fans, people who love sport like I do. 

As an 18 year old school girl I was introduced to the whereabouts system. 9 years ago. Since then the system has evolved and developed, post October 2015 I recognised this and requested further education from UKAD, I will come back to this later. 

By submitting my whereabouts I am consenting to people coming into my house or hotel and taking blood and urine samples. This is a part of my sport that I accept and whole heartedly support.

To add some background before I explain the specific details of my 3 'strikes'. 
I have been tested 16 times in 2016.
I have a clear and valid blood passport (a more detailed use of looking for doping violations by looking for trends vs anomalies in my blood values) 
I have been tested after every victory this season. 
I am on the road for around 250 days a year, with around 60 race days. 
I have never tested positive for a banned substance. 
I have never taken a band substance. 

I will present the facts of my 3 'strikes'

Sweden 20th August 2015

UKAD are allowed a maximum of 2 weeks to inform you of a 'strike'. When I received the letter from UKAD I immediately contested it with a written explanation, this was not accepted on the eve of me travelling to America for my world championships. I had no legal advise or external support at the time. 

Last week:
CAS ruled quickly and unanimously in my favour and cleared me of any wrong doing, because:
I was at the hotel I stated.
The DCO didn't do what was reasonable or necessary to find me. 
I was tested the next day, this test was negative. 
Calling an athletes mobile phone is not a method approved by UKAD to try and locate an athlete, as such it is not an argument against me that I slept with my phone on silent in order not to disturb a room mate.

Put simply I was available and willing to provide a sample for UKAD. 

2nd 'strike' October 2015

Despite being reported as a 'missed test' this was in fact a 'filing failure' 
UKAD did not try to test me, instead this was an administrative spot check. They found an inconsistency between an overnight accommodation and a morning time slot.
A busy post world championship period meant I had no firm plans and as such was changing address and plans very quickly. I made a mistake. This was an honest mistake rather than trying to deceive anybody. A mistake that many athletes who are honest with themselves will admit to having made themselves. I was Tested by UKAD later that week and produced a negative result. 

In December 2015 I met with UKAD and British cycling to discuss a support plan in order to avoid a 3rd potential 'strike' 
Simon Thornton from British Cycling was put in place to check my whereabouts on a bi weekly basis. We had regular contact and he would help me with any problems, effectively he was a fail safe mechanism. Since meeting with UKAD my whereabouts updates have been as detailed and specific as they can possibly be. Going as far as I can in describing my locations to avoid any further issues. 

Unfortunately this system fell apart on the 9th of June when UKAD tried to test me in my hour slot and I was not where I had stated I would be. Simon Thornton had left BC 3 weeks prior to my strike without anybody informing me. We worked under a policy of 'no news was good news' as outlined in my support plan with UKAD. If Simon was still in place the following oversight could have been prevented. My over night accommodation ( the bed in which I was sleeping the morning of the test) was correct, but I had failed to change the one hour testing slot, it was clearly impossible to be in both locations. 
This is where I believe I have the right to privacy. My personal family circumstances at the time of the test were incredibly difficult, the medical evidence provided in my case was not contested by UKAD, they accepted the circumstances I was in. UKAD did not perceive my situation to be 'extreme' enough to alleviate me of a negligence charge. A physiatrist assessment of my state of mind at the time was contrary. In my defence I was dealing with a traumatic time and i forgot to change a box on a form. I am not a robot, I am a member of a family, my commitment to them comes over and above my commitment to cycling. This will not change and as a result I will not discuss this further, our suffering does not need to be part of a public trial. I hope I have made it clear that family comes before cycling, I am not obsessively driven to success in cycling, I love my sport, but I would never cheat for it. 

To conclude:
I currently have 1 filing failure and 1 missed test. 
The reason this hasn't been discussed publicly until now is because I had the right to a fair trial at CAS, it is clear sensationalised headlines have a detrimental effect to any legal case. 

In the days following the revelations in the press my family and I have been the victim of some incredibly painful comments. I ask people to take a moment to put themselves in my shoes, I am an athlete trying to do my best, I am a clean athlete. I am the female road race world champion, I operate in a completely different environment to the majority of athletes in the testing pool. I am self coached, I work outside British cycling and its systems, I race for a women's team that doesn't have a budget to match a world tour men's team who have staff specifically in place to supports riders with whereabouts. I don't wish to make excuses, i made one mistake which was noticed in a 'spot check' my second strike came at a time when anybody who lives for and loves their family would understand my oversight. It's as simple as ticking the wrong box on a form.

I love sport and the values it represents, it hurts me to consider anybody questioning my performances. Integrity is something I strive for in every part of my life. I will hold my head high in Rio and do my best for Great Britain, I am sorry for causing anyone to lose faith in sport, I am an example of what hard work and dedication can achieve. I hate dopers and what they have done to sport. 

To any of the 'Twitter army' reading this, do yourself a favour and go for a bike ride. It's the most beautiful thing you can do to clear your mind.


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## oldroadman (3 Aug 2016)

400bhp said:


> Just tried to read LA's FB response.
> 
> It's a rambling mess in my view.


Because it was not written by a press officer or lawyer. Reads to me like a statement from someone untrained in media, but trying to give an honest point of view. Training for journalistic style writing was not a requirement for being world champion when I last looked.


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## mjr (3 Aug 2016)

DogTired said:


> http://www.ukad.org.uk/resources/document/uk-anti-doping-rules
> 
> http://www.ukad.org.uk/athletes/performance/drug-test



Yes, those are the rules, but I don't see the protocol that should be followed by testers there - have I overlooked it?



oldroadman said:


> Sweden 20th August 2015
> 
> UKAD are allowed a maximum of 2 weeks to inform you of a 'strike'. When I received the letter from UKAD I immediately contested it with a written explanation, this was not accepted on the eve of me travelling to America for my world championships. I had no legal advise or external support at the time.



...which doesn't seem consistent with...



smutchin said:


> http://www.cyclist.co.uk/news/1526/...-rio-after-winning-appeal-against-anti-doping
> 
> "Ms Armitstead chose not to challenge the first and second Whereabouts Failures at the time they were asserted against her."


... unless they somehow dismissed her challenge of that first Failure as invalid and not an admissable challenge somehow?


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## 400bhp (3 Aug 2016)

oldroadman said:


> Because it was not written by a press officer or lawyer. Reads to me like a statement from someone untrained in media, but trying to give an honest point of view. Training for journalistic style writing was not a requirement for being world champion when I last looked.



No you're correct. Neither is an IQ test. I had incorrectly assumed she was intelligent.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (3 Aug 2016)

oldroadman said:


> To any of the 'Twitter army' reading this, do yourself a favour and go for a bike ride. It's the most beautiful thing you can do to clear your mind.



Dear Ms Armitstead, my head is already clear, had yours been you may not have made a bollox of your obligations in terms of testing.

I'm so glad that all the other athletes in the world who manage to comply with the obligations don't have a love for their family nor do they try their best and have to do pesky things like train and survive in the "real world"...

P.S. you might want to have a word with your fiancé when it comes to his use of twitter


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## smutchin (3 Aug 2016)

mjray said:


> ... unless they somehow dismissed her challenge of that first Failure as invalid and not an admissable challenge somehow?



Yes, possibly a case of not following the correct procedure for making a challenge, hence UKAD didn't record it as such, which is kind of ironic given what has subsequently happened.

In cases like this, I'm always keen to look for the facts where they're available, hence the various posts upthread citing the rules - these are the elements we can be certain of. Unfortunately, when you get both sides making contradictory statements, what you are left with is speculation. It will be interesting to read the reasoned decision from CAS to hear their take on the disputed Whereabouts Failure, but I guess we'll never know the full and complete facts of what happened in that hotel on 20th August last year, or what Armitstead did or didn't do to challenge the strike.


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## smutchin (3 Aug 2016)

Marmion said:


> I'm so glad that all the other athletes in the world who manage to comply with the obligations don't have a love for their family nor do they try their best and have to do pesky things like train and survive in the "real world"...



Wiggins has often mentioned how in 2012 he had to pretty much sacrifice all family life for a whole year for cycling. And Boardman has talked about how his dedication to cycling nearly ruined his marriage, which was part of the reason he retired when he did. It must be tough to find a balance. I don't think being a pro cyclist really is compatible with living in the 'real world'.


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## Sluicehoops (3 Aug 2016)

She says:


oldroadman said:


> Simon Thornton from British Cycling was put in place to check my whereabouts on a bi weekly basis. We had regular contact and he would help me with any problems



and 


oldroadman said:


> Simon Thornton had left BC 3 weeks prior to my strike without anybody informing me



So if they were in contact bi-weekly (is that twice a week, or every 2 weeks??) , and he hadn't contacted her in 3 weeks then would she not have thought to try to contact him?
Seems a bit odd to me with so much at stake for her not to have a potential third missed test.


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## SWSteve (3 Aug 2016)

Sluicehoops said:


> She says:
> 
> 
> and
> ...




That stuck out to me also.


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## 400bhp (3 Aug 2016)

smutchin said:


> Wiggins has often mentioned how in 2012 he had to pretty much sacrifice all family life for a whole year for cycling. And Boardman has talked about how his dedication to cycling nearly ruined his marriage, which was part of the reason he retired when he did. It must be tough to find a balance. I don't think being a pro cyclist really is compatible with living in the 'real world'.



Wiggins is married (to a non-cyclist) with kids. Boardman is married (to a non-cyclist) with kids.

LA doesn't have kids and is due to be married to another cyclist.

The real world is just nebulous. We all live in some bubble in one way or another.


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## HF2300 (3 Aug 2016)

400bhp said:


> Wiggins is married (to a non-cyclist) with kids. Boardman is married (to a non-cyclist) with kids.



Not sure about Boardman, but Cath Wiggins was very quick in her day, particularly on the track, a member of the national junior squad, and still races now and again.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (3 Aug 2016)

smutchin said:


> Wiggins has often mentioned how in 2012 he had to pretty much sacrifice all family life for a whole year for cycling. And Boardman has talked about how his dedication to cycling nearly ruined his marriage, which was part of the reason he retired when he did. It must be tough to find a balance. I don't think being a pro cyclist really is compatible with living in the 'real world'.


Hence my use of "real world" rather than real world. 

She sounds like she's playing the victim well; the sweet 18 year old schoolgirl, all alone with no help, the system failed her, a loving family for whom she demands privacy, heartfelt plea to understand just how much she does without support, she operates in an environment different to the majority of athletes (not sure where she gets that one from tbh), a psychiatrist assessment is mentioned, mistake, after honest mistake; she just about stops short of saying "think of the children...", but manages to have a dig at the "twitter army" (I think she means people expressing opinions on twitter rather than there actually being an actual army on twitter)


----------



## 400bhp (3 Aug 2016)

HF2300 said:


> Not sure about Boardman, but Cath Wiggins was very quick in her day, particularly on the track, a member of the national junior squad, and still races now and again.



Sorry I should have said pro-cyclist.


----------



## 400bhp (3 Aug 2016)

Marmion said:


> Hence my use of "real world" rather than real world.
> 
> She sounds like she's playing the victim well; the sweet 18 year old schoolgirl, all alone with no help, the system failed her, a loving family for whom she demands privacy, heartfelt plea to understand just how much she does without support, she operates in an environment different to the majority of athletes (not sure where she gets that one from tbh), a psychiatrist assessment is mentioned, mistake, after honest mistake; she just about stops short of saying "think of the children...", but manages to have a dig at the "twitter army" (I think she means people expressing opinions on twitter rather than there actually being an actual army on twitter)



Incoherent musings (not you btw).


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (3 Aug 2016)

400bhp said:


> Incoherent musings (not you btw).



That's a first for me


----------



## mjr (3 Aug 2016)

Marmion said:


> She sounds like she's playing the victim well;


I think I'm only going to get worried about that if she also starts a Lizzie Armitstead Foundation fundraising by selling rainbow-coloured wristbands.



Marmion said:


> (I think she means people expressing opinions on twitter rather than there actually being an actual army on twitter)


Yeah, https://twitter.com/BritishArmy are going "WTF did we do?!?"


----------



## smutchin (3 Aug 2016)

HF2300 said:


> Not sure about Boardman, but Cath Wiggins was very quick in her day, particularly on the track, a member of the national junior squad, and still races now and again.



IIRC, Chris met Sally through cycling but she pretty much gave it up to be Mrs Boardman.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (3 Aug 2016)

mjray said:


> Yeah, https://twitter.com/BritishArmy are going "WTF did we do?!?"


Maybe she got confused when she saw their tweets about #Armistice??


----------



## rich p (3 Aug 2016)

I don't like this dismissal of anyone who thinks there is a case worth discussing, whatever side of the fence you fall on, as being a twitter army and internet know-nothing trolls. 
The facts are out there and many people, including current sportsmen (M&F), think she has been extremely fortunate. 
If we can save just one poor unfortunate cyclist from suffering at the hands of....

...Oh give over, enough now, ed.


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## smutchin (3 Aug 2016)

rich p said:


> The facts are out there



_Some_ facts are out there... But don't worry, I don't think she was talking about you.



> many people, including current sportsmen (M&F), think she has been extremely fortunate.



Yes, very fortunate. And let's hope deservedly so.


----------



## rich p (3 Aug 2016)

smutchin said:


> _Some_ facts are out there... But don't worry, I don't think she was talking about you.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, very fortunate. And let's hope deservedly so.


I'm still smarting from oldroadman saying that the CAS panel ...aren't any old people....
Only young ones then


----------



## Flying_Monkey (3 Aug 2016)

oldroadman said:


> As published on Facebook by Lizzie A.
> A brave and in my view, straightforward and honest women.
> Whether the know-nothing opinion trolls will accept it, who knows.
> I just hope she is able to put in a brilliant performance in a few days, although I fear that all this pressure from media and internet comment may have had a bad effect on morale. Let's hope it has the opposite effect, energises her Yorkshire grit and use that wonderful talent to batter 'em all.



oldroadman, you know more than most about the racing scene of the past, and we all appreciate that. However, your argument here is verging on 'she's honest and clean because she's from Yorkshire'. It's basically a variation on the old cliché that the British (and really, the English) don't cheat at sports, that's only foreigners. Let's face it, unless your anonymity is hiding a lot more personal knowledge than you let on, you have just as little specific knowledge about what "Lizzie A." is up to than the 'know-nothing opinion trolls'. I am particularly curious as to why you leap to Armitstead's defence when you were performing the opposite role (cynic / sceptic / denier) when it came to the allegations from a lot more female cyclists about the situation within British Cycling recently.

I do wonder why it is that some particular athletes - and some particular female athletes - get support and not others. Is it just 'nice girls' that we want rather than the bolshie, difficult ones?

PS: you will note that I am making no judgment about Armitstead. The process that has occured here, however, has been overly secretive, leading to suspicion, and there are unanswered questions that will now always cast some doubt over her. She's never going to have the unquestionable status she did before, and she will be watched more closely.


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## smutchin (3 Aug 2016)

Flying_Monkey said:


> The process that has occured here, however, has been overly secretive



As far as I can see, the process has been conducted within normal UKAD rules. Some anti-doping authorities publish details of provisional suspensions, UKAD don't. UKAD also don't publish details of cases where the athlete is cleared of the charge, unless the athlete consents. 

This has only come out because of a leak of confidential information which the Mail has chosen to publish for its scandal value rather than as part of some moral crusade in the name of public interest.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (3 Aug 2016)

Having just spent a wee while on google, there are very few athletes who have fallen foul of a "whereabouts" ban. Which might suggest that the system is not too difficult and/or that the level of support offered usually helps in cases where there have been missed tests.

It also indicates that those who are caught out seem to highlight just how unfair and difficult it all is...


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## DogTired (3 Aug 2016)

As opposed to a lot of trial by internet, its worth pointing out that UKAD pushed the guilty button on this. Most of the comments here (and professional athletes too http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/riders-react-to-the-lizzie-armitstead-case/ ) share (with UKAD) an increasing level of bemusement at the trial outcome from CAS.

Personally I can put nationality and reputation aside and look at the reports - mistakes happen but at the same time no-one is above suspicion either. UKAD initiated the action and an argument was won by barristers on behalf of British Cycling and LA - quite frankly when barristers get involved discussing minutiae you might as well toss a coin on the outcome.

Time and time again highly motivated individuals have shown themselves to be capable of stepping over the line and automatic suspension of disbelief does no-one any favours. Currently virtually no-one suggests she's actually doped. All comment is about breaking the protocol that protects clean athletes.


----------



## Buddfox (3 Aug 2016)

DogTired said:


> Time and time again highly motivated individuals have shown themselves to be capable of stepping over the line and automatic suspension of disbelief does no-one any favours. Currently virtually no-one suggests she's actually doped. All comment is about breaking the protocol that protects clean athletes.



This is worth repeating - no one here appears to be accusing her of doping, rather of being a dope.


----------



## rich p (3 Aug 2016)

DogTired said:


> As opposed to a lot of trial by internet, its worth pointing out that UKAD pushed the guilty button on this


This @oldroadman 
They thought (and still think) that she was guilty of the offence. They may change their mind when and if CAS release their reasonings.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (3 Aug 2016)

smutchin said:


> This has only come out because of a leak of confidential information which the Mail has chosen to publish for its scandal value rather than as part of some moral crusade in the name of public interest.



Christ, I cannae believe I'm about to type this, but here goes...

I think the Mail were right in deciding to publish this story; there does not have to be a "moral crusade" element to public interest. Nor does it appear to be "scandal value" as there is most definitely public interest.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (3 Aug 2016)

rich p said:


> This @oldroadman
> They may change their mind when and if CAS release their reasonings.


She'll maybe be Olympic Champion 2020 by then


----------



## smutchin (3 Aug 2016)

Marmion said:


> Christ, I cannae believe I'm about to type this







> Nor does it appear to be "scandal value" as there is most definitely public interest.



Everything the Mail does has some value as scandal/sensationalism/prurience. Any public interest angle is incidental post hoc justification.


----------



## smutchin (3 Aug 2016)

DogTired said:


> As opposed to a lot of trial by internet, its worth pointing out that UKAD pushed the guilty button on this.





rich p said:


> They thought (and still think) that she was guilty of the offence. They may change their mind when and if CAS release their reasonings.



The difference between UKAD and all of us here is that they are only doing their job. They believed Armitstead had a case to answer according to their rules and brought a formal charge accordingly. It's procedural, not personal. They can't let her off because they think she looks pretty or because she might win a medal for GB or because they think she's a dope rather than a doper. Nor can they push for harsher punishment because they think her attitude stinks or because they suspect (without evidence) that she's deliberately avoiding tests because she's glowing. They have to go after everyone who breaks their rules with equal force, otherwise their rules are pointless.


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## rich p (3 Aug 2016)

smutchin said:


> The difference between UKAD and all of us here is that they are only doing their job. They believed Armitstead had a case to answer according to their rules and brought a formal charge accordingly. It's procedural, not personal. They can't let her off because they think she looks pretty or because she might win a medal for GB or because they think she's a dope rather than a doper. Nor can they push for harsher punishment because they think her attitude stinks or because they suspect (without evidence) that she's deliberately avoiding tests because she's glowing. They have to go after everyone who breaks their rules with equal force, otherwise their rules are pointless.


I agree, but for some to say that she is suffering trial by troll is missing the point somewhat IMO. My point was that it's not as if it's a Clinic-style witch-hunt when even the UK doping authority have pubicised that they thought she was guilty.


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## rich p (3 Aug 2016)

[QUOTE 4396572, member: 43827"]One really sad part of this is that, like Christine Oruhuogo, Armistead will now be remembered for this, as much as her victories, by many people.

She was not charged with doping, just for falling foul of the testing regulations, which in itself is serious, but her incompetence has given ammunition to her detractors.[/QUOTE]
...which carries a 2 or 4 year penalty for a reason. It is regarded as a serious offence.


----------



## DogTired (3 Aug 2016)

[QUOTE 4396572, member: 43827"]One really sad part of this is that, like Christine Oruhuogo, Armistead will now be remembered for this, as much as her victories, by many people.

She was not charged with doping, just for falling foul of the testing regulations, which in itself is serious, but her incompetence has given ammunition to her detractors.[/QUOTE]

Its worth noting that the protocol isn't testing to see if the athlete has used PEDS. They're testing to see if the athlete is clean. A subtle point but it changes the emphasis if the test doesn't take place - the athlete has failed to show they're clean. That's why missing them is considered serious.

Very few tests give a default pass if you don't turn up and this is one of them.


----------



## smutchin (3 Aug 2016)

rich p said:


> it's not as if it's a Clinic-style witch-hunt when even the UK doping authority have pubicised that they thought she was guilty.



UKAD have made a specific charge based on clearly defined evidence (notwithstanding that some of that evidence has been found to be faulty by CAS). This does not in any way legitimise all the baseless speculation and innuendo that has been spouted on the internet in the last few days (I'm thinking more of the crap I've read on facebook than in here, to be fair).


----------



## rich p (3 Aug 2016)

smutchin said:


> UKAD have made a specific charge based on clearly defined evidence (notwithstanding that some of that evidence has been found to be faulty by CAS). This does not in any way legitimise all the baseless speculation and innuendo that has been spouted on the internet in the last few days (I'm thinking more of the crap I've read on facebook than in here, to be fair).


Okay, fair dos, I've only been reading on here and the cycling media.


----------



## deptfordmarmoset (3 Aug 2016)

[QUOTE 4396572, member: 43827"]One really sad part of this is that, like Christine Oruhuogo, Armistead will now be remembered for this, as much as her victories, by many people.

She was not charged with doping, just for falling foul of the testing regulations, which in itself is serious, but her incompetence has given ammunition to her detractors.[/QUOTE]
And the stronger she rides, the louder the whispers and, by extension, the more the general distrust of pro cycling. It's not just to herself that she's done a disservice.


----------



## oldroadman (3 Aug 2016)

400bhp said:


> No you're correct. Neither is an IQ test. I had incorrectly assumed she was intelligent.


That's quite insulting. Makes an assumption which is unworthy of further comment.


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## 400bhp (4 Aug 2016)

oldroadman said:


> That's quite insulting. Makes an assumption which is unworthy of further comment.


Insulting to whom?

The idiot that missed 3 tests or you?

If it's you I apologise.


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## Crackle (4 Aug 2016)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> And the stronger she rides, the louder the whispers and, by extension, the more the general distrust of pro cycling. It's not just to herself that she's done a disservice.


This is it for me. I fail to see how the level of suspicion in which cycling and sports is now held can be so readily underestimated by riders such that an incidence like this is just read by everyone as a, the dog ate my homework, excuse. It smacks of disdain towards the sports followers as if there's no understanding of the level of disenchantment which we feel.

I dare say she's clean and CAS found correctly but I repeat I'm disappointed and don't care much for her winning any more.


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## Aravis (4 Aug 2016)

Crackle said:


> This is it for me. I fail to see how the level of suspicion in which cycling and sports is now held can be so readily underestimated by riders such that an incidence like this is just read by everyone as a, the dog ate my homework, excuse. It smacks of disdain towards the sports followers as if there's no understanding of the level of disenchantment which we feel.


When I used to work in IT, like everyone else I had to deal with a lot of admin tasks not directly related to the core job - accounting for time, updating change management records, etc. None of these activities were difficult in themselves, and I don't think anyone questioned the importance of them, but some found them much easier to deal with than others. This doesn't reflect on intelligence or sense of responsibility - it's more about how your brain instinctively reacts in pressure situations.

So I have no difficulty imagining that some sports people are going to find it harder than others to keep their anti drug monitoring stuff 100% in order. Logically, the sort of person able to keep everything perfectly in line all the time ought to be better equipped to successfully cheat the system, so perhaps the Armitstead saga is focussing attention on the wrong person. I remember reading that when Heinrich Himmler was captured by the Allies, it was the completeness of his papers that first aroused suspicion.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (4 Aug 2016)

Aravis said:


> So I have no difficulty imagining that some sports people are going to find it harder than others to keep their anti drug monitoring stuff 100% in order. Logically, the sort of person able to keep everything perfectly in line all the time ought to be better equipped to successfully cheat the system, so perhaps the Armitstead saga is focussing attention on the wrong person. I remember reading that when Heinrich Himmler was captured by the Allies, it was the completeness of his papers that first aroused suspicion.


So it's the people who comply we need to be suspicious of? Are you fecking mental?  Or are you Seb Coe? 

Anyway, I respect Ferrand-Perrot's position on the matter:
http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/08/news/pre-rio-row-between-ferrand-prevot-and-armitstead_417121


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## Crackle (4 Aug 2016)

Aravis said:


> When I used to work in IT, like everyone else I had to deal with a lot of admin tasks not directly related to the core job - accounting for time, updating change management records, etc. None of these activities were difficult in themselves, and I don't think anyone questioned the importance of them, but some found them much easier to deal with than others. This doesn't reflect on intelligence or sense of responsibility - it's more about how your brain instinctively reacts in pressure situations.
> 
> So I have no difficulty imagining that some sports people are going to find it harder than others to keep their anti drug monitoring stuff 100% in order. Logically, the sort of person able to keep everything perfectly in line all the time ought to be better equipped to successfully cheat the system, so perhaps the Armitstead saga is focussing attention on the wrong person. I remember reading that when Heinrich Himmler was captured by the Allies, it was the completeness of his papers that first aroused suspicion.


We all manage things differently but if your job depended on you making your timesheet accurate I bet you'd do it, especially if you'd had two warnings already.

And Himmler and Armstrong in the same thread is slightly mind warping.


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## SWSteve (4 Aug 2016)

https://twitter.com/skysportsnewshq/status/761309215201775617

Is she even going to make it out of the neutral zone.


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## Bollo (4 Aug 2016)

ItsSteveLovell said:


> https://twitter.com/skysportsnewshq/status/761309215201775617
> 
> Is she even going to make it out of the neutral zone.


Did she claim that she missed a test because she was being attacked by Klingons?


----------



## marinyork (5 Aug 2016)

[QUOTE 4396572, member: 43827"]One really sad part of this is that, like Christine Oruhuogo, Armistead will now be remembered for this, as much as her victories, by many people.

She was not charged with doping, just for falling foul of the testing regulations, which in itself is serious, but her incompetence has given ammunition to her detractors.[/QUOTE]

Christine Ohuruogu is no longer remembered for that. I remember it and think she should have been banned from the 2008 Olympics and I can't see why Armistead should be going to Rio (although I'm more sympathetic to what CAS said because the details in 1 out of those 3 were slightly different). No one ever mentions that about Ohuruogu any more the media love her.

It's the ground hog day again because after this lifetime ban stuff which was going on when Ohuruogu didn't complete tests, this year we have all this UK athletics plan which is essentially the same thing.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (5 Aug 2016)

marinyork said:


> Christine Ohuruogu is no longer remembered for that. I remember it and think she should have been banned from the 2008 Olympics and I can't see why Armistead should be going to Rio (although I'm more sympathetic to what CAS said because the details in 1 out of those 3 were slightly different). No one ever mentions that about Ohuruogu any more the media love her.
> 
> It's the ground hog day again because after this lifetime ban stuff which was going on when Ohuruogu didn't complete tests, this year we have all this UK athletics plan which is essentially the same thing.


I only associate her with the ban stuff and the subsequent 'poor me' response.


----------



## Dogtrousers (5 Aug 2016)

Marmion said:


> I only associate her with the ban stuff and the subsequent 'poor me' response.


I must admit it's the very first thing that pops into to my mind when I hear about her (I don't follow athletics much tho).
Sadly it'll probably be the first thing that comes to my mind when I hear about Armitstead in future. And I suspect I won't be alone.


----------



## smutchin (5 Aug 2016)

I met a certain German ex-pro today who expressed some fairly strong opinions on the Armitstead business - @Marmion you would have loved it.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (5 Aug 2016)

smutchin said:


> I met a certain German ex-pro today who expressed some fairly strong opinions on the Armitstead business - @Marmion you would have loved it.


Was it that nobber Jensie?


----------



## marinyork (5 Aug 2016)

Marmion said:


> I only associate her with the ban stuff and the subsequent 'poor me' response.



I wouldn't expect any less. 

It was just really a compare and contrast. Nearly a decade on and multiple gold medals for Ohuruogu, the media have long since forgotten all that as she's won olympic gold.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (5 Aug 2016)

marinyork said:


> ...as she's won olympic gold.


Has she? Oh well...what for "self pity?"


----------



## smutchin (5 Aug 2016)

Marmion said:


> Was it that nobber Jensie?



It would be unprofessional of me to reveal details of off-the-record conversations.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (5 Aug 2016)

Marmion said:


> ...she operates in an environment different to the majority of athletes (not sure where she gets that one from tbh)...


It would appear this bit relates to there being very few female cyclists on the "Whereabouts" programme; so she's complaining about being "singled out" and being treated differently. Which I suppose opens up a whole new debate about ensuring consistent approaches are taken. However, she's on the programme so she needs to make sure she complies.


----------



## SWSteve (5 Aug 2016)

Marmion said:


> It would appear this bit relates to there being very few female cyclists on the "Whereabouts" programme; so she's complaining about being "singled out" and being treated differently. Which I suppose opens up a whole new debate about ensuring consistent approaches are taken. However, she's on the programme so she needs to make sure she complies.




I'm sorry, but this is bullshoot. If you want to be the best in the world, then show us you're the best in the world. Don't go whinging saying it's not fair how you need to show people you're clean.


----------



## Crackle (6 Aug 2016)

The female Secret Pro has a take on it too.

http://cyclingtips.com/2016/08/the-...a-la-course-and-doping-in-the-womens-peloton/

_There are however, some riders in the peloton who get paid quiet well in comparison. And yeah, Lizzie Armitstead is one of them. Of course, with all her results she deserves a good salary. But with everything that has happened these last few days, her performances and whether she is innocent have definitely been hot topics at the coffee shop between us cyclists.


It’s easy to believe that she must be on something. She never looks like she is trying, she has won so much, and everything about her suspension was kept so quiet. How could you miss three out-of-competition drug tests? If you missed one you would be lifting your game, if you missed two you would be bat-shoot nervous and make sure you didn’t miss a third, but if you miss three, well…apparently you just appeal and get your first strike removed…


It seems strange that someone with such a high chance to medal at the Olympics would put her chances of going to the Olympics in jeopardy. Then there is the involvement and funding British Cycling had.


To be honest, I don’t really know what to think._


----------



## rich p (6 Aug 2016)

Crackle said:


> The female Secret Pro has a take on it too.
> 
> http://cyclingtips.com/2016/08/the-...a-la-course-and-doping-in-the-womens-peloton/
> 
> ...


Secret Cobblers though, that is.
If the Secret Pros are genuine, which I doubt, then they really ought to come up with something more inventive than trotting out the same stuff as us.


----------



## Buddfox (6 Aug 2016)

rich p said:


> Secret Cobblers though, that is.
> If the Secret Pros are genuine, which I doubt, then they really ought to come up with something more inventive than trotting out the same stuff as us.



You mean you are not a Secret Pro...?!


----------



## rich p (7 Aug 2016)

Buddfox said:


> You mean you are not a Secret Pro...?!


Shhhhhh!


----------



## HF2300 (7 Aug 2016)

rich p said:


> Shhhhhh!



I'm really having my illusions shattered this summer. I'm only just getting over learning that @Marmion wasn't the 1955 Swiss champion, and now this. I'm going to have to reassess my whole world view.


----------



## Crackle (7 Aug 2016)

rich p said:


> Secret Cobblers though, that is.
> If the Secret Pros are genuine, which I doubt, then they really ought to come up with something more inventive than trotting out the same stuff as us.


There are secret cobblers too, who knew!

I read the story of them all getting lost on someone's blog. Can't remember who's though.


----------



## SWSteve (7 Aug 2016)

Crackle said:


> There are secret cobblers too, who knew!
> 
> I read the story of them all getting lost on someone's blog. Can't remember who's though.




Yes! They go in at night and make wonderful shoes for the old cobbler man


----------



## rich p (7 Aug 2016)

Crackle said:


> There are secret cobblers too, who knew!
> 
> I read the story of them all getting lost on someone's blog. Can't remember who's though.





ItsSteveLovell said:


> Yes! They go in at night and make wonderful shoes for the old cobbler man


Schumacher was a doping git...


----------



## HF2300 (7 Aug 2016)

rich p said:


> Schumacher was a doping git...



Multilingual puns - how erudite. We are getting a better class of Cyclechat these days.


----------



## shouldbeinbed (7 Aug 2016)

rich p said:


> Secret Cobblers though, that is.
> If the Secret Pros are genuine, which I doubt, then they really ought to come up with something more inventive than trotting out the same stuff as us.


Aye but as devils advocate, Gary Lineker, Alan Shearer et al in their punditry often come up with the same cobblers on a terrible penalty miss or goalkeeping howler as journalists that have never played professionally and the likes of me that can appreciate the good and bad in a game but never rose above the level of school 3rd team reserve goalie. Sometimes there is a prevailing sentiment that cuts across all levels of ability and payment or not. I guess if these secret artisans were genuine and not at the end of their career then they have to tread a fine line of fairly bland and anodyne in case they get outed.


----------



## Flying_Monkey (9 Aug 2016)

Cav actually sounds like one of the most sensible and measured voices I've heard on this:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cavendish-armitstead-chaos-was-her-own-fault/

Summary: he believes Armitstead when she says she isn't doping, but is clear that it was her fault she missed three tests. Also, he thinks the penalties for missing three tests should not be higher than the penalties for failing a test.


----------



## Dogtrousers (9 Aug 2016)

Cav's quite the grown up voice of reason these days. No more Mr gobbing off. He's probably an expert on different brands of comfy slippers too.


----------



## mjr (9 Aug 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> Cav's quite the grown up voice of reason these days. No more Mr gobbing off. He's probably an expert on different brands of comfy slippers too.


Podiatric doping!


----------



## Bollo (9 Aug 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> Cav's quite the grown up voice of reason these days. No more Mr gobbing off. He's probably an expert on different brands of comfy slippers too.


Mr Gobbingoff should be Uncle Oleg's nickname.


----------



## themosquitoking (9 Aug 2016)

This, Russia being at the top of very nearly every Olympic event so far is really starting to grate. 
On another note Mrs TMK asked a very good question that we failed to find the correct google term to find an answer. Do athletes on a drugs ban still get tested?


----------



## Supersuperleeds (10 Aug 2016)

themosquitoking said:


> This, Russia being at the top of very nearly every Olympic event so far is really starting to grate.
> On another note Mrs TMK asked a very good question that we failed to find the correct google term to find an answer. Do athletes on a drugs ban still get tested?



Per UKAD definition of who can be tested, then I would say the can as just because they are banned doesn't stop them being an athlete

* Who can be tested?*
Any UK and non-UK athlete staying, training, residing, entering a competition, or named as a member of a team participating in a competition, at any level within the UK, is eligible for testing as part of UKAD’s national anti-doping programme.


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## oldroadman (14 Aug 2016)

Supersuperleeds said:


> Per UKAD definition of who can be tested, then I would say the can as just because they are banned doesn't stop them being an athlete
> 
> * Who can be tested?*
> Any UK and non-UK athlete staying, training, residing, entering a competition, or named as a member of a team participating in a competition, at any level within the UK, is eligible for testing as part of UKAD’s national anti-doping programme.


Unless you "retire" and drop your licence/affiliation. Then come back post-ban, where you are supposed to be in the pool for 6 months before restarting competition. Just like Lance did years ago, except the then UCI president seemingly waived the rule (the UCI did the testing then) so LA could start in the early season Aussie races. Money spoke, one might think. Allegedly. I couldn't possibly comment.


----------



## HF2300 (16 Aug 2016)

Flying_Monkey said:


> the old cliché that the British (and really, the English) don't cheat at sports, that's only foreigners..



Nothing to do with the previous discussion, but I keep thinking that if the Russians or Chinese were as dominant on the track as Team GB, our friend from Invasion of the Bodysnatchers might be very busy.


----------



## themosquitoking (16 Aug 2016)

HF2300 said:


> Nothing to do with the previous discussion, but I keep thinking that if the Russians or Chinese were as dominant on the track as Team GB, our friend from Invasion of the Bodysnatchers might be very busy.


My wife doesn't like it when i say we have the best drugs.


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## Flying_Monkey (16 Aug 2016)

HF2300 said:


> Nothing to do with the previous discussion, but I keep thinking that if the Russians or Chinese were as dominant on the track as Team GB, our friend from Invasion of the Bodysnatchers might be very busy.



It's definitely unfair in track cycling, but it has more to do with investment, facilities, training and back-up* - plus, of course, having enough cyclists who are interested in competing. There's almost no way a poor country can even think of going for track cycling medals, unless like Awang from Malaysia, you get allowed to train with athletes from a well-funded country - in his case, Australia. It's not like running events.

*This article suggests that the UK has almost twice as much funding put into the track program as the next best-funded team, Australia, which probably means its ten times or more that of smaller nations.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/aug/16/british-cycling-head-coach-hits-back-rivals


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## rich p (24 Aug 2016)

It beggars belief that that doping git Schleck will get 2m wotsits for Leopard not marketing his image rights? Have I missed something? He was fecking 'known' doper who got busted. 

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/fra...llion-in-damages-from-leopard-ag-news-shorts/

_Schleck was in the middle of a four-year contract with the RadioShack-Leopard team that was set to run from 2011 to 2014. Part of Schleck’s contract with the squad was an agreement that they would market his image rights. The court ruled that as the team had waited until June 2013 to fire Schleck they owed him and his company the two million._


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## HF2300 (25 Aug 2016)

rich p said:


> It beggars belief that that doping git Schleck will get 2m wotsits for Leopard not marketing his image rights? Have I missed something? He was fecking 'known' doper who got busted.



Trouble is these things are to do with contract law, not ethics.


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## mjr (25 Aug 2016)

HF2300 said:


> Trouble is these things are to do with contract law, not ethics.


Teams using contracts that reward doping? Well I never(!)


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## rich p (25 Aug 2016)

HF2300 said:


> Trouble is these things are to do with contract law, not ethics.


Yes, I know, but it sticks in the craw! 
His image rights ffs!


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## 400bhp (26 Aug 2016)

Pity they have to determine the currency. 2 million Italian lira would be about just and fair.


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## Dogtrousers (26 Aug 2016)

400bhp said:


> Pity they have to determine the currency. 2 million Italian lira would be about just and fair.


Lira? Where have you been since 2002?


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## oldroadman (26 Aug 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> Lira? Where have you been since 2002?


In Yen would be OK, about CHF19,000, £15,000. That sound about right?


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## Pro Tour Punditry (26 Aug 2016)

2 million Bank of Salmond notes exchange rate based on current North Sea oil value. That should give Schleck nothing at all, which is what he deserves, the big lanky streak of piss that he is.


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## 400bhp (26 Aug 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> Lira? Where have you been since 2002?


Exactly...worthless...


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## Pro Tour Punditry (2 Sep 2016)

Paralympian suspended due to EPO positive.

"Gallagher represented Australia at the 2008 Paralympics in Beijing and at the 2012 Paralympics in London, winning gold medals in the Individual Pursuit in both games. The 38-year-old is also a 10-time track world champion, having won three 1km time trials and seven individual pursuit titles since 2006."
http://cyclingtips.com/2016/09/aust...r-to-miss-rio-after-testing-positive-for-epo/

What's the odds he only used it once, and he was tested just after this, and all his wins were done clean?


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## SWSteve (2 Sep 2016)

Marmion said:


> Paralympian suspended due to EPO positive.
> 
> "Gallagher represented Australia at the 2008 Paralympics in Beijing and at the 2012 Paralympics in London, winning gold medals in the Individual Pursuit in both games. The 38-year-old is also a 10-time track world champion, having won three 1km time trials and seven individual pursuit titles since 2006."
> http://cyclingtips.com/2016/09/aust...r-to-miss-rio-after-testing-positive-for-epo/
> ...




Trying to 'regain his performance' due to deteeriation due to age?


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## Pro Tour Punditry (2 Sep 2016)

ItsSteveLovell said:


> Trying to 'regain his performance' due to deteeriation due to age?


Aye, I did think of that afterwards. Poor soul.


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## Dogtrousers (10 Sep 2016)

Armstrong slightly less banned
http://road.cc/content/news/204116-lance-armstrong-slightly-less-banned
Can do triathlon if he wants.


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## rich p (10 Sep 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> Armstrong slightly less banned
> http://road.cc/content/news/204116-lance-armstrong-slightly-less-banned
> Can do triathlon if he wants.


I liked this comment...
_
"He is currently looking to start up a new endurance-based venture called WEDU"

The clean version will be called WEDONT._


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## mjr (14 Sep 2016)

"Lance Armstrong: Stop At Nothing" on Bike Channel UK 2045-2230 Sunday. I think it's been shown on another channel before BICBW.


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## marinyork (14 Sep 2016)

It's also available on netflix if anyone was interested.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (16 Sep 2016)

Samuele Conti (Wilier-Southeast) provisionally suspended after testing positive for growth hormone

http://www.gazzetta.it/Ciclismo/16-09-2016/doping-samuele-conti-positivo-sospeso-17076496457.shtml


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## mjr (16 Sep 2016)

Marmion said:


> Samuele Conti (Wilier-Southeast) provisionally suspended after testing positive for growth hormone
> http://www.gazzetta.it/Ciclismo/16-09-2016/doping-samuele-conti-positivo-sospeso-17076496457.shtml


That's the same Southeast that left MPCC in disgrace over its mishandling of doping so not a big surprise...


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## Dogtrousers (20 Sep 2016)

An article on glucocorticoids from 2013. I hope it's not too out of date on the subject of regulations. I found it informative/interesting
http://www.biscuittinmedia.com/alejandro-marque-cortisone-confusion-tour-of-portugal-2013/


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## smutchin (20 Sep 2016)

mjr said:


> That's the same Southeast that left MPCC in disgrace over its mishandling of doping so not a big surprise...



Not to mention several other doping convictions in the past few years - still the same team, even if it keeps changing its name...

2013 - Santambrogio, Di Luca
2014 - Rabottini
2015 - Carretero


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## Pro Tour Punditry (6 Oct 2016)

JTL (remember him?) states that tramadol offered to British Team at Worlds in 2012
http://cyclingtips.com/2016/10/tier...-tramadol-around-at-2012-world-championships/


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## Pro Tour Punditry (6 Oct 2016)

4 year ban for Danielson (remember him too?)
http://cyclingtips.com/2016/10/four...ur-year-sanction-for-contaminated-supplement/


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## smutchin (6 Oct 2016)

> “There was a time I rode the World Championships and we were offered a painkiller called Tramadol,” he told the BBC.



For 'Tramadol' read 'Thunderbird'

For 'rode the World Championships' read 'was sleeping on a park bench'

For 'the BBC' read 'my besht mate... hic!'


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## rich p (7 Oct 2016)

smutchin said:


> For 'Tramadol' read 'Thunderbird'
> 
> For 'rode the World Championships' read 'was sleeping on a park bench'
> 
> For 'the BBC' read 'my besht mate... hic!'


Or, ' I was offered a legal substance, which is still legal, but declined as I was up to my eyeballs on epo and off my face on testosterone'


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## brommers (14 Oct 2016)

MPCC Report - covers all sports
http://www.mpcc.fr/index.php/en/news-uk/item/534-doping-in-2016-was-not-only-about-russia


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## Dogtrousers (19 Oct 2016)

I never really understood the MPCC. Seems like a good idea - for example as a means for pro teams to interact with WADA over issues like corticoids and tramadol. But often (on here, at least) it's dismissed as a PR exercise; voluntary, optional and toothless. Orica, Katusha and Astana left or got booted out, variously. Sky declined to join as it wasn't as sufficiently devoted to the anti doping cause and didn't go far enough  Yet there are still several teams who take it seriously enough to remain.


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## oldroadman (19 Oct 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> I never really understood the MPCC. Seems like a good idea - for example as a means for pro teams to interact with WADA over issues like corticoids and tramadol. But often (on here, at least) it's dismissed as a PR exercise; voluntary, optional and toothless. Orica, Katusha and Astana left or got booted out, variously. Sky declined to join as it wasn't as sufficiently devoted to the anti doping cause and didn't go far enough  Yet there are still several teams who take it seriously enough to remain.


It's simply a club of certain pro teams using it as a PR exercise - "oh look at us we are all ever so clean". So that's all right then. They have no mandate except their own and don't seem to have managed to influence WADA, so what's the point?
The rules are what they are, Tramadol and Corticosteroids are on a WADA "watch list", which possibly means they are gathering test data before coming to an evidence based conclusion. Let's hope they reach the right one, although remember WADA is across all sports and some have more reason than others not to want both substances put on the banned list.
Anyone for tennis/footy/rugby/track&field?


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## SWSteve (19 Oct 2016)

oldroadman said:


> It's simply a club of certain pro teams using it as a PR exercise - "oh look at us we are all ever so clean". So that's all right then. They have no mandate except their own and don't seem to have managed to influence WADA, so what's the point?
> The rules are what they are, Tramadol and Corticosteroids are on a WADA "watch list", which possibly means they are gathering test data before coming to an evidence based conclusion. Let's hope they reach the right one, *although remember WADA is across all sports* and some have more reason than others not to want both substances put on the banned list.
> Anyone for tennis/footy/rugby/track&field?



This is odd, how different sports have different rulings on different drugs, despite WADA being for all sports - as raised by Dan Carter's use of corticosteroids



> *In cycling they have a different rule regarding injections, which says that after an injection you have to rest eight days before a competition. Do you think it would be a good rule to apply in rugby, would it be safer for the players ?*
> 
> I don’t know enough about corticosteroids to comment. I don’t know why they have eight and in rugby it’s two or three, I don’t know.
> 
> ...


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## Dogtrousers (19 Oct 2016)

ItsSteveLovell said:


> This is odd, how different sports have different rulings on different drugs, despite WADA being for all sports - as raised by Dan Carter's use of corticosteroids
> 
> "...*In cycling they have a different rule regarding injections, which says that after an injection you have to rest eight days before a competition...."*


I think the "different rule" that is referred to there is an MPCC rule rather than a rule enforced for all of cycling. And as such it has no-one really enforcing it as we saw with Lars Boom and Astana, when push came to shove Vino just ignored the rule (and Astana got booted out of the MPCC, without any dreadful consequences for them, in fact with almost no consequence at all). 

[Edit. The Lars Boom case was about low cortisol levels - MPCC rule 5, not direct use of corticosteroids, rule 6, which in any case only refers to intra-articular injections. So if you want to be pedantic about it, my post above is waffly rubbish. Get over it pedants.]


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## SWSteve (19 Oct 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> I think the "different rule" that is referred to there is an MPCC rule rather than a rule enforced for all of cycling. And as such it has no-one really enforcing it as we saw with Lars Boom and Astana, when push came to shove Vino just ignored the rule (and Astana got booted out of the MPCC, without any dreadful consequences for them, in fact with almost no consequence at all).
> 
> [Edit. The Lars Boom case was about low cortisol levels - MPCC rule 5, not direct use of corticosteroids, rule 6, which in any case only refers to intra-articular injections. So if you want to be pedantic about it, my post above is waffly rubbish. Get over it pedants.]




Ahh that would explain a lot - seen as the MPCC seems to contain all the 'big' french teams


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## brommers (19 Oct 2016)

WADAs prohibited list

https://wada-main-prod.s3.amazonaws...-29_-_wada_prohibited_list_2017_eng_final.pdf


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## mjr (19 Oct 2016)

ItsSteveLovell said:


> Ahh that would explain a lot - seen as the MPCC seems to contain all the 'big' french teams


MPCC's main strength is ASO's support, which has limited power over World Tour teams who ASO can't easily exclude from their flagship events. I feel this is an interesting element of the ASO-UCI-RCS tug o' war and a big reason why ASO want the number of WT teams reduced, plus it must put Vaughters in a conflicted position, as someone who seems to support MPCC but also wants WT to become a US-style closed shop of near-untouchable franchisees.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (19 Oct 2016)

Old Belgian CX bloke linked to international cocaine deals
http://velonews.competitor.com/2016...international-drug-trafficking-charges_423384


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## Smokin Joe (25 Oct 2016)

It comes to something when a 46 year old time trialist is busted for using EPO.

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news...d-receives-ban-using-epo-confirms-ukad-296781


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## rich p (25 Oct 2016)

Smokin Joe said:


> It comes to something when a 46 year old time trialist is busted for using EPO.
> 
> http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news...d-receives-ban-using-epo-confirms-ukad-296781


The mind boggles at his stupidity. self-gratification artist.


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## Dogtrousers (26 Oct 2016)

rich p said:


> The mind boggles at his stupidity. self-gratification artist.


My mind doesn't boggle at all. 

Some people take amateur sport very seriously indeed. They make huge sacrifices of time, they spend all their available cash (and probably some unavailable cash) on super duper kit. Why should the attitude to doping not trickle down from the pro level? By not boggling I'm not saying I approve just that it's not terribly surprising.

_"The anti-doping body then, after being handed information from an unnamed source, carried out further tests on the sample"_​
That it took a tip-off to trigger EPO tests (If I've understood correctly) suggests that the testing protocols are less stringent, which may affect a would-be doper's risk/benefit assessment.


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## mjr (26 Oct 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> Some people take amateur sport very seriously indeed. They make huge sacrifices of time, they spend all their available cash (and probably some unavailable cash) on super duper kit. Why should the attitude to doping not trickle down from the pro level? By not boggling I'm not saying I approve just that it's not terribly surprising.


Amen. Anyone else think the comments about doping by the Transcontinental Race's organiser on http://thebikeshow.net/transcontinental-race-wrap-up/ (basically, improved athletic performance wouldn't help win ) are a bit worrying?


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## rich p (27 Oct 2016)

Aitor Gonzalez has led a colourful and wayward life!

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/aitor-gonzalez-arrested-for-robbery-in-spain/
_
His first arrest came in 2007, for driving under the influence of alcohol and cocaine. A year later he was arrested for hiring three people to beat up someone who owed him money. That was followed in 2011 with an arrest for a bank scam._


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## Crackle (27 Oct 2016)

rich p said:


> Aitor Gonzalez has led a colourful and wayward life!
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/aitor-gonzalez-arrested-for-robbery-in-spain/
> _
> His first arrest came in 2007, for driving under the influence of alcohol and cocaine. A year later he was arrested for hiring three people to beat up someone who owed him money. That was followed in 2011 with an arrest for a bank scam._


I was reading that before. Definitetly one for the cycling pub quiz question.


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## Buddfox (27 Oct 2016)

The mind boggles a bit at this:

http://road.cc/content/news/209429-...ays-hes-never-raced-gets-four-year-doping-ban

Member of BC who has never raced banned from all sport for four years because he refused to submit to a drugs test, having been busted for buying steroids from India. I mean, it's funny, but I think a lot of BC members should start asking themselves whether they are subject to WADA rules...!


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## HF2300 (27 Oct 2016)

Buddfox said:


> ... I think a lot of BC members should start asking themselves whether they are subject to WADA rules...!



Bugger. Time to sort out the bathroom cabinet then.


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## Flying_Monkey (27 Oct 2016)

It's not just BC. USADA has got 10 amateur cyclists so far this year...

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/usa...dented-number-of-amateur-athletes-for-doping/

Interestingly, a disproportionate number appear to be Colombian.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (27 Oct 2016)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Columbian.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (28 Oct 2016)

Amateur cyclist who has never raced banned from doing something he has never done.
http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-...ho-never-raced-gets-doping-ban-of-four-years/

That'll send out a clear message about "significant threat" to clean sport and public health...


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## deptfordmarmoset (28 Oct 2016)

Marmion said:


> Amateur cyclist who has never raced banned from doing something he has never done.
> http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-...ho-never-raced-gets-doping-ban-of-four-years/
> 
> That'll send out a clear message about "significant threat" to clean sport and public health...


I take diuretics but I neither race nor have a TUEs. Will I get a ban too?


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## mjr (28 Oct 2016)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> I take diuretics but I neither race nor have a TUEs. Will I get a ban too?


If you've got a BC race membership, possibly. I think this was one of the reasons BC started offering "ride" membership too, wasn't it?


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## Pro Tour Punditry (28 Oct 2016)

Perhaps we all need to give up our BC memberships?


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## mjr (28 Oct 2016)

Marmion said:


> Perhaps we all need to give up our BC memberships?


I'd advocate that for other reasons (including that introduction of "ride" membership doesn't appear to have been accompanied by doing much else to reduce discrimination against disabled people, or as one of their leading lights allegedly called them "wobblies and gimps"), but you could just downgrade from "race" to "ride" if you don't race.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (28 Oct 2016)

mjr said:


> I'd advocate that for other reasons (including that introduction of "ride" membership doesn't appear to have been accompanied by doing much else to reduce discrimination against disabled people, or as one of their leading lights allegedly called them "wobblies and gimps"), but you could just downgrade from "race" to "ride" if you don't race.


I dinnae even ride anymore.


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## Buddfox (28 Oct 2016)

So this was the story I linked to in post #1332...


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## Pro Tour Punditry (28 Oct 2016)

Buddfox said:


> So this was the story I linked to in post #1332...


So it was.


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## smutchin (28 Oct 2016)

Marmion said:


> I dinnae even ride anymore.



You don't even _watch_ any more.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (28 Oct 2016)

smutchin said:


> You don't even _watch_ any more.


Only when Murder She Wrote is on.


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## oldroadman (28 Oct 2016)

I think that this was UKAD acting having been working with other agencies as the bloke was importing amounts of EPO and other stuff bought over the internet. he's actually broken the law I think by having controlled prescription drugs without a prescription. UKAD does all the anti-doping cases in cycling, not BC, and so when they sanction a member, BC have to follow it up if the member holds a race licence/membership. Easy to say "nah nah" to BC but we should probably be pleased that they are carrying out their responsibilities correctly. I'm sure most people would prefer a race member got suspended even if they say they don't race than get beaten in competition by an undetected and unsanctioned cheat.


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## mjr (28 Oct 2016)

oldroadman said:


> Easy to say "nah nah" to BC but we should probably be pleased that they are carrying out their responsibilities correctly. I'm sure most people would prefer a race member got suspended even if they say they don't race than get beaten in competition by an undetected and unsanctioned cheat.


Well, yes, but I do wonder how many people pay for race membership without thinking that their prescription meds mean they're doping in a strict sense, never mind illegal imports.

If UKAD had enough money, it could probably make quite horrible headlines about the % of BC racing licence holders that dope. Start by targetting those with breathing ailments (3.2 million of the UK population with asthma IIRC, 0.8m with COPD, ...) who take something other than salbutamol, plus anyone taking a cold decongestant. See how many that nets, then move on to other common "banned" medications.


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## oldroadman (28 Oct 2016)

There is nothing to stop anyone with race membership applying for a TUE. Though it's those that race who would benefit most.
It seems this latest sanction happened because police/customs detected something and involved UKAD as well. The person concerned had committed an offence anyway, so if a ban is all he gets might consider himself lucky. If he does not compete then nothing to say you can't still ride about.


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## Supersuperleeds (28 Oct 2016)

Forgive my ignorance but the article posted above doesn't say if he had a race membership or a normal membership, just that he was a member of BC and therefore subject to doping tests. To me that implies anyone who is a member of BC could get a knock on the door.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (28 Oct 2016)

I'm going to grass up @Crackle and his dodgy breathing medication


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## Crackle (28 Oct 2016)

Marmion said:


> I'm going to grass up @Crackle and his dodgy breathing medication


I've got a TUE. I thought everyone had one.


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## oldroadman (28 Oct 2016)

As a BC member the "knock on the door" is highly improbable unless you are on the ADAMS system. Testing outside of that group of elite people is usually at races. But in the case of the person with EPO, intelligence and leads from customs seem to have precipitated the UKAD testing - this is not done by BC (test appears to have been refused = non-negative finding = 4 year ban from all competitive sport).


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## Buddfox (28 Oct 2016)

Supersuperleeds said:


> Forgive my ignorance but the article posted above doesn't say if he had a race membership or a normal membership, just that he was a member of BC and therefore subject to doping tests. To me that implies anyone who is a member of BC could get a knock on the door.



In theory, yes. It's the first thing in BC's terms and conditions, that you are subject to British Cycling's Anti Doping Policies. But I don't imagine it's likely, unless you happen to be importing EPO and refusing to give a sample...

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/staticcontent/Terms-and-Conditions-0


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## mjr (29 Oct 2016)

Buddfox said:


> In theory, yes. It's the first thing in BC's terms and conditions, that you are subject to British Cycling's Anti Doping Policies. But I don't imagine it's likely, unless you happen to be importing EPO and refusing to give a sample...
> 
> https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/staticcontent/Terms-and-Conditions-0


I see that the adherence to the Anti Doping Policies is "Race members only". BC "ride" membership holders are not "Athletes" for the purposes of UKAD's rules, are they?


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## Buddfox (29 Oct 2016)

mjr said:


> I see that the adherence to the Anti Doping Policies is "Race members only". BC "ride" membership holders are not "Athletes" for the purposes of UKAD's rules, are they?



It's not, I don't think, the only thing that applies to race members and no-one else is the UCI registration. I think it is confusingly laid out, as that was my first conclusion. But I can only find one set of terms and conditions, which include the references to UK Anti Doping, and those T&Cs apply to all categories of membership.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (30 Oct 2016)

This nobber has been handed a 3 year and 9 months ban
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news...tory-contamination-for-doping-positive-209083

Failing a test 3 days onto a pro contract, and yet already so proficient in his victim claims.


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## oldroadman (31 Oct 2016)

Marmion said:


> This nobber has been handed a 3 year and 9 months ban
> http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news...tory-contamination-for-doping-positive-209083
> 
> Failing a test 3 days onto a pro contract, and yet already so proficient in his victim claims.


Cycling Weekly with sparkling accuracy has noted that the gentleman will face a two year ban. Er, it's four years off now....something I'm quite happy about.


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## oldroadman (31 Oct 2016)

oldroadman said:


> Cycling Weekly with sparkling accuracy has noted that the gentleman will face a two year ban. Er, it's four years off now....something I'm quite happy about.


My error, the Gallego report is old news, 9 months ago! So two years was right then. Before WADA got serious. Some of the comments about labs following the article are either made by apologists or nitwits. Anyone who has visited an accredited lab will be aware just how tightly controlled conditions and samples are.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (1 Nov 2016)

Beltran arrested for his part in doping athletes, and there is mention of him having worked as a "horse doctor" in Bahrain - according to The Inner Ring (on twitter) it turns out that the head of the Bahraini royal stables was Nasser bin Hamad, the man behind Team Torture-Merida.
http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/06/news/colombia-arrests-alleged-doping-doctor_409716

What could possibly go wrong?


----------



## SWSteve (1 Nov 2016)

Marmion said:


> Beltran arrested for his part in doping athletes, and there is mention of him having worked as a "horse doctor" in Bahrain - according to The Inner Ring (on twitter) it turns out that the head of the Bahraini royal stables was Nasser bin Hamad, the man behind Team Torture-Merida.
> http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/06/news/colombia-arrests-alleged-doping-doctor_409716
> 
> What could possibly go wrong?



Are you suggesting medicines used in horses may be applied to athletes? Hasn't this happened before?


----------



## Crackle (1 Nov 2016)

Marmion said:


> Beltran arrested for his part in doping athletes, and there is mention of him having worked as a "horse doctor" in Bahrain - according to The Inner Ring (on twitter) it turns out that the head of the Bahraini royal stables was Nasser bin Hamad, the man behind Team Torture-Merida.
> http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/06/news/colombia-arrests-alleged-doping-doctor_409716
> 
> What could possibly go wrong?


A tangled halter of connections.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (6 Nov 2016)

Fatherly love...
http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/ex-pro-rider-handed-lifetime-ban-for-doping-his-teenage-son/


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## Crackle (6 Nov 2016)

Marmion said:


> Fatherly love...
> http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/ex-pro-rider-handed-lifetime-ban-for-doping-his-teenage-son/


Wow, just wow.


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## smutchin (6 Nov 2016)

"Dad, if we tell them I didn't know what it was you were giving me, they'll reduce my ban."


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## deptfordmarmoset (6 Nov 2016)

Marmion said:


> Fatherly love...
> http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/ex-pro-rider-handed-lifetime-ban-for-doping-his-teenage-son/


Unless he's taking the rap for his son.... (Not that I believe it but he doesn't look like he's in racing shape to me so a lifetime ban won't hurt as much as a full term ban for this son.)


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## ColinJ (6 Nov 2016)

I think it is probably more a case of the father not really seeing anything wrong with it, so why not! 

(I am assuming that he _did_ actually dope during his own career. Too scared of getting caught to have used doping products ...? I think not - if he was scared for himself, then he should have been terrified for his son!)


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (14 Nov 2016)

Dekker and the 2007 Tour: EPO, bloodbags, cortisone and "Eastern European whores"
http://www.ad.nl/sport/over-de-tour-van-2007-wordt-nooit-gepraat~afc4bb74/


----------



## rich p (14 Nov 2016)

Marmion said:


> Dekker and the 2007 Tour: EPO, bloodbags, cortisone and "Eastern European whores"
> http://www.ad.nl/sport/over-de-tour-van-2007-wordt-nooit-gepraat~afc4bb74/


I clicked on the link and it seems that Dekker ate all the cookies...

...the cheating toerag.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (14 Nov 2016)

Fewer tests in 2017 by French anti-doping agency due to budget constraints.
https://www.afld.fr/faute-de-moyens...re-forte-reduction-de-programme-de-controles/


----------



## User169 (15 Nov 2016)

"Youngsters take up bike racing in their droves after reading Dekker's tale"

"I used to think bike riding was for dorks"

https://speld.nl/2016/11/15/jongeren-willen-massaal-op-wielrennen-leuke-verhalen-thomas-dekker/

(from a Dutch Daily Mash-type website)


----------



## User169 (15 Nov 2016)

Dekker: I am 'Clasicomano Luigi' in Fuentes ledger
http://buff.ly/2fCRd4


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (17 Nov 2016)

According to Inner Ring (and confirmed from looking at the provisional suspension list) João Gaspar and Ramiro Rincón from Pro Conti team Funvic Soul Cycles-Carrefour have been provisionally suspended by the UCI for CERA


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (17 Nov 2016)

A review of Dekker's book, I hope it gets an English translation
https://cyclingtips.com/2016/11/sex...iew-of-thomas-dekkers-tell-all-book-my-fight/


----------



## rich p (17 Nov 2016)

Marmion said:


> A review of Dekker's book, I hope it gets an English translation
> https://cyclingtips.com/2016/11/sex...iew-of-thomas-dekkers-tell-all-book-my-fight/


Yeah, me too! Maybe @DP will do one?
I love the way Michael Boogerd's wife defends him like a Tory politician's wife despite all evidence to the contrary.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (17 Nov 2016)

rich p said:


> Yeah, me too! Maybe @DP will do one?
> I love the way Michael Boogerd's wife defends him like a Tory politician's wife despite all evidence to the contrary.


I still always think this smiley is Boogerd


And no wonder...


----------



## ColinJ (17 Nov 2016)

rich p said:


> Yeah, me too! Maybe @DP will do one?
> I love the way Michael Boogerd's wife defends him like a Tory politician's wife despite all evidence to the contrary.


*Ex *wife!


----------



## rich p (17 Nov 2016)

ColinJ said:


> *Ex *wife!


True, which is even weirder.


----------



## ColinJ (17 Nov 2016)

rich p said:


> True, which is even weirder.


It struck me as being odd too, but I suppose _some_ people do divorce amicably!


----------



## SWSteve (18 Nov 2016)

Sounds like the best book ever, how do I learn Dutch as to be able to read it


----------



## User169 (18 Nov 2016)

rich p said:


> Yeah, me too! Maybe @DP will do one?
> I love the way Michael Boogerd's wife defends him like a Tory politician's wife despite all evidence to the contrary.



It's an odd title. "Mijn Gevecht" is the Dutch equivalent of "Mein Kampf".


----------



## oldroadman (23 Nov 2016)

DP said:


> It's an odd title. "Mijn Gevecht" is the Dutch equivalent of "Mein Kampf".


Which translates in "My Struggle". Somewhat assisted it appears.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (23 Nov 2016)

oldroadman said:


> Which translates in "My Struggle". Somewhat assisted it appears.


No comment on the Eastern European hookers @oldroadman ?


----------



## oldroadman (23 Nov 2016)

Marmion said:


> No comment on the Eastern European hookers @oldroadman ?


No, I'm not into fishing...


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (5 Dec 2016)

La Gazzetta reporting that Stefano Cecchini, son of the infamous doping doctor, and who seems to be a bit of a hit on the Gran Fondo circuit (no testing as far as I can make out) may get a pro contract next year for the first time. 

He's 38.


----------



## User169 (5 Dec 2016)

A couple of good reads from cyclingtips: Phil Gaimon hunting down some strava KOMs which seem to have been set by a banned rider (who makes eye-wateringly expensive cycling clothing)

https://cyclingtips.com/2016/12/gaimon-begins-retirement-by-hunting-banned-riders-strava-koms/

https://cyclingtips.com/2016/03/who...sterious-case-of-a-los-angeles-strava-legend/

http://brandt-sorenson.com/


----------



## Dogtrousers (5 Dec 2016)

DP said:


> A couple of good reads from cyclingtips: Phil Gaimon hunting down some strava KOMs which seem to have been set by a banned rider (who makes eye-wateringly expensive cycling clothing)
> 
> https://cyclingtips.com/2016/12/gaimon-begins-retirement-by-hunting-banned-riders-strava-koms/
> 
> ...


That's weird. Well, it's weird to me at least, but the Strava universe is not one that I'm immersed in. 

To sum up: A doper has set some KOM times. And Phil Gaimon rides into town, wearing a white hat, as a recently retired pro he's the both good enough and with enough spare time to beat these times, which he then does, in order punch the doper on the nose.

My thoughts on the weirdness of this are probably for another thread, but thanks for posting.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (5 Dec 2016)

Gaimon is a bell-end*

The other bloke is a sad tosser.


*I think being a bell-end is a pre-requisite for joining, staying with or retiring from Cannondale-Drapac, they are seriously getting on my tits


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (6 Dec 2016)

Marmion said:


> La Gazzetta reporting that Stefano Cecchini, son of the infamous doping doctor, and who seems to be a bit of a hit on the Gran Fondo circuit (no testing as far as I can make out) may get a pro contract next year for the first time.
> 
> He's 38.


Update from velorooms forum:
http://velorooms.com/index.php?topic=7607.msg2223006#msg2223006


----------



## DRM (8 Dec 2016)

http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/ne...star__39_s_Everest_efforts_to_be_shown_on_TV/
I caught about half of this programme this morning, basically former Welsh rugby international Richard Parks was intending to climb Everest without oxygen, in order to scientifically see the effect of reduced oxygen on the brain, with a view to seeing if this has any links to alzheimers, however after training & acclimatising to Everest he started the climb up to camp 1 from base camp, whilst there a doctor checked his blood, the doctor told him that his blood was too thick with red blood cells due to altitude, fittness level & a natural ability to produce red blood cells,and he had to go back to base camp as there was a real risk of a stroke or heart attack, or even death, sadly they didn't quote what his haematocrit % was but the blood sample was literally the consistency of runny honey, it was unbelievable the effect on his blood, having seen it on TV it made me wonder why on earth would you dope yourself with EPO and risk your health with blood like that, it's only when you see it for real do you realise why perfectly healthy cyclists have died because of EPO.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (11 Dec 2016)

Landis in l'Equipe:
"Ferrari was the best and the smartest, he had connections everywhere, even a friend at Madrid's lab, maybe Sky has someone even better, but I'm sure you won't write that down"..


----------



## SWSteve (11 Dec 2016)

Marmion said:


> Landis in l'Equipe:
> "Ferrari was the best and the smartest, he had connections everywhere, even a friend at Madrid's lab, maybe Sky has someone even better, but I'm sure you won't write that down"..


----------



## oldroadman (11 Dec 2016)

Marmion said:


> Landis in l'Equipe:
> "Ferrari was the best and the smartest, he had connections everywhere, even a friend at Madrid's lab, maybe Sky has someone even better, but I'm sure you won't write that down"..


Says a proven cheat and liar who even had the audacity to run a "fairness fund" knowing he was a doper. L'Equipe may print it, sometimes it seems like anyone French getting beaten must mean that they are doing something "abnormal". Like "magic wheels"...which were actually Mavic wheels, round ones at that, kept in covers to stay nice and clean! Shocking and clearly cheating the French riders from their entitled place on top of the podium.


----------



## DRM (11 Dec 2016)

oldroadman said:


> Says a proven cheat and liar who even had the audacity to run a "fairness fund" knowing he was a doper. L'Equipe may print it, sometimes it seems like anyone French getting beaten must mean that they are doing something "abnormal". Like "magic wheels"...which were actually Mavic wheels, round ones at that, kept in covers to stay nice and clean! Shocking and clearly cheating the French riders from their entitled place on top of the podium.


LOL, they don't like it up 'em, Unfortunately for the french, other countries that aren't traditional cycling countries have caught up and overtaken them, in as much as the U.K is at the heart of this, there will be another nation somewhere in the world, who when they get the right funding will come along and kick our backsides, it's just that French can't accept that it''s our turn at the top of their race.
I wonder where that talent will come from, I think it could be an African country.


----------



## oldroadman (11 Dec 2016)

DRM said:


> LOL, they don't like it up 'em, Unfortunately for the french, other countries that aren't traditional cycling countries have caught up and overtaken them, in as much as the U.K is at the heart of this, there will be another nation somewhere in the world, who when they get the right funding will come along and kick our backsides, it's just that French can't accept that it''s our turn at the top of their race.
> I wonder where that talent will come from, I think it could be an African country.



I think you may be right with the last sentence. What these countries would need is the race opportunities, right finance and development and quality coaches. Considering the success of African endurance athletes it's a logical step that there must some exceptional talent around, especially in stage races with lots of climbing. The general spare build seems ideally suited to this type of race, provided the recovery is there as well. Great for the sport too getting fresh and challenging riders coming in. But then again China could be a force to be reckoned with in a decade or two. UCI are not completely daft and I can't think it's only about money (though that helps!).


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (12 Dec 2016)

oldroadman said:


> But then again China could be a force to be reckoned with in a decade or two. UCI are not completely daft and I can't think it's only about money (though that helps!).


Really?
http://www.velonews.com/2016/12/news/commentary-wanda-rising_426193

And the TJ Sports situation certainly ain't giving cause for celebration that China is offering a stable investment prosect at present.

Successive failures in Arab States would indicate no interest in the sport from a spectators point of view. Yet the UCI keep going back. And keep taking the money.

Compare this to recent events in Japan and Rwanda where the crowds were out in droves. 

It may be that the UCI see this easy and big money as making way for future investments across the globe. But we'd not know, as Cookson is hardly leading the way with providing a clear vision that the fans can see and say "ah yes, I can see where the UCI going with that..."


----------



## HF2300 (14 Dec 2016)

oldroadman said:


> ... Like "magic wheels"...which were actually Mavic wheels...



Of course, that whole episode might have been started by someone having trouble with autocorrect / autocomplete...


----------



## oldroadman (14 Dec 2016)

Marmion said:


> Really?
> http://www.velonews.com/2016/12/news/commentary-wanda-rising_426193
> 
> And the TJ Sports situation certainly ain't giving cause for celebration that China is offering a stable investment prosect at present.
> ...



Obviously there is big money involved, so the comment about Mr Cookson begs the question "if you were running a business and were offered shedloads of cash to operate in a certain country for a while, would it be wise to let them know that it was only a cash exercise to fund development elsewhere?"
Wouldn't be in business very long, transparency is good but not too much so and not always wise.


----------



## oldroadman (14 Dec 2016)

Not that I's any kind of old cynic of course...


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (14 Dec 2016)

oldroadman said:


> Obviously there is big money involved, so the comment about Mr Cookson begs the question "if you were running a business and were offered shedloads of cash to operate in a certain country for a while, would it be wise to let them know that it was only a cash exercise to fund development elsewhere?"
> Wouldn't be in business very long, transparency is good but not too much so and not always wise.


It was also depend if he views himself as "running a business" or being the president of a sports governing body; but I am not sure why there cannot be transparency when "business" is involved.


----------



## mjr (14 Dec 2016)

HF2300 said:


> Of course, that whole episode might have been started by someone having trouble with autocorrect / autocomplete...


I rolly hoopoe tsar's Wright.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (28 Dec 2016)

El Pais reporting that 20 riders and 10 athletes have been identified in the Puerto case, although it doesn't look like anything new will be revealed...
http://deportes.elpais.com/deportes/2016/12/27/actualidad/1482866433_093478.html


----------



## HF2300 (28 Dec 2016)

For those without Marmion's polyglot talents, here's the Google Translate mangling of the above El Pais page:

https://translate.google.co.uk/tran.../actualidad/1482866433_093478.html&edit-text=


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (28 Dec 2016)

HF2300 said:


> For those without Marmion's polyglot talents, here's the Google Translate mangling of the above El Pais page:
> 
> https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http://deportes.elpais.com/deportes/2016/12/27/actualidad/1482866433_093478.html&edit-text=



Doesn't everyone have auto translate on articles?


----------



## User169 (5 Jan 2017)

Marmion said:


> A review of Dekker's book, I hope it gets an English translation
> https://cyclingtips.com/2016/11/sex...iew-of-thomas-dekkers-tell-all-book-my-fight/



Dekkers ex-manager is now suing him for blackmail.


----------



## mjr (5 Jan 2017)

DP said:


> Dekkers ex-manager is now suing him for blackmail.


I wonder what for. Couldn't be much worse than the tale of dinner with the parents. Isn't blackmail usually a crime prosecuted by the state, too?


----------



## User169 (5 Jan 2017)

mjr said:


> I wonder what for. Couldn't be much worse than the tale of dinner with the parents. Isn't blackmail usually a crime prosecuted by the state, too?



The reports I've read aren't really clear, but I guess you are right that blackmail would be a criminal case.

I'm not entirely sure what the case is based on, but I think it might be an application to prevent publication of future editions of the book.

Nevertheless, Hanegraaf says that Dekker offered not to write anything bad about him in the book if he was prepared to write off money that Dekker owed him. As well as the dinner with the parents, Hanegraaf objects to a supposed meeting with Fuentes where Dekker says that Hanegraaf did all the translation from Spanish. Hanegraaf claims not to be able to speak any Spanish.


----------



## HF2300 (7 Jan 2017)

Kenworthy's parting shots on leaving UKAD:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/38535591


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (12 Jan 2017)

Nothing changes...
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/simeoni-stripped-of-role-in-italian-federation-due-to-doping-ban/


----------



## User169 (28 Jan 2017)

Yikes...

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cyc...l&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (29 Jan 2017)

You couldnae make this up, Lawson Craddock is a prize-winning nobber: "Doping and other stuff aside, he was still the best cyclist who ever lived.”

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news...s-308373?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Social


----------



## Crackle (29 Jan 2017)

Marmion said:


> You couldnae make this up, Lawson Craddock is a prize-winning nobber: "Doping and other stuff aside, he was still the best cyclist who ever lived.”
> 
> http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news...s-308373?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Social


Is he dead; who knew?


----------



## rich p (29 Jan 2017)

Marmion said:


> You couldnae make this up, Lawson Craddock is a prize-winning nobber: "Doping and other stuff aside, he was still the best cyclist who ever lived.”
> 
> http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news...s-308373?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Social


Is the prick on twitter?


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (29 Jan 2017)

rich p said:


> Is the prick on twitter?


Both of them


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (9 Feb 2017)

Cancellara has lost the plot, a tiny extract from his autobiography






Although by default he kind of drops his team and others in the crap...


----------



## ColinJ (9 Feb 2017)

Marmion said:


> Cancellara has lost the plot, a tiny extract from his autobiography
> View attachment 336828
> 
> 
> Although by default he kind of drops his team and others in the crap...


And what he wrote is also a load of tosh ... Doping would help classics riders A LOT!


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (9 Feb 2017)

ColinJ said:


> And what he wrote is also a load of tosh ... Doping would help classics riders A LOT!


The battery inside his bike would also help


----------



## SWSteve (9 Feb 2017)

I can't see anything wrong with what Fabian is saying. Despite weighing more that 80 kilos, and having lost all cycling fitness, I'm sure doping wouldn't help me get to where I want to be either...


----------



## User169 (17 Feb 2017)

Tiernen-Locke has just announced his retirement from cycling.


----------



## mjr (17 Feb 2017)

DP said:


> Tiernen-Locke has just announced his retirement from cycling.


"I have searched for the motivation, but the fact is that it's difficult to get fired up about the kind of races that I once saw as stepping-stones to the pro world. To make the sacrifices needed for me to be decent again, I'd need to be in a completely different mindset. And I wouldn't want to be a pro again anyway." -- http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tiernan-locke-retires-from-cycling/

Interesting that he's "co-operating" with UKAD. Has he ever confessed?


----------



## rich p (17 Feb 2017)

DP said:


> Tiernen-Locke has just announced his retirement from cycling.


----------



## ColinJ (17 Feb 2017)

Well, I suppose it gives him more time to spend in the pub ...


----------



## oldroadman (17 Feb 2017)

mjr said:


> "I have searched for the motivation, but the fact is that it's difficult to get fired up about the kind of races that I once saw as stepping-stones to the pro world. To make the sacrifices needed for me to be decent again, I'd need to be in a completely different mindset. And I wouldn't want to be a pro again anyway." -- http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tiernan-locke-retires-from-cycling/
> 
> Interesting that he's "co-operating" with UKAD. Has he ever confessed?


Even more to the point, since he has returned to competition (didn't he moan about being given a 2nd cat licence at the start?) his impact and that of his team has hardly made any kind of splash, or even a ripple. Now why would that be, I wonder?


----------



## mjr (17 Feb 2017)

oldroadman said:


> Even more to the point, since he has returned to competition (didn't he moan about being given a 2nd cat licence at the start?) his impact and that of his team has hardly made any kind of splash, or even a ripple. Now why would that be, I wonder?


You can read the "make the sacrifices needed for me to be decent again" two completely different ways, to be sure. Spending tons of time on training or spending tons of money on...?


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (17 Feb 2017)

Everyone's favourite bearded cocaine-snorting cyclist, Luca Paolini, has announced he's now going to do a bit of mountain biking.

Rad.


----------



## mjr (17 Feb 2017)

Marmion said:


> Everyone's favourite bearded cocaine-snorting cyclist, Luca Paolini, has announced he's now going to do a bit of mountain biking.
> 
> Rad.


Oh no! What's happening to his cafe? I was looking forward to popping in one day and ordering some coke... I mean a Coke.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (27 Mar 2017)

Brazilian Pro Conti team suspended for 12 months
http://www.uci.ch/pressreleases/uci...nal-continental-team-soul-brasil-pro-cycling/


----------



## rich p (27 Mar 2017)

Marmion said:


> Brazilian Pro Conti team suspended for 12 months
> http://www.uci.ch/pressreleases/uci...nal-continental-team-soul-brasil-pro-cycling/


Another bunch of (R) Souls...


----------



## Buddfox (5 Apr 2017)

Ferrari jailed for 18 months:

http://road.cc/content/news/220416-italian-doping-doctor-michele-ferrari-jailed-18-months


----------



## Viking (5 Apr 2017)

Buddfox said:


> Ferrari jailed for 18 months:
> 
> http://road.cc/content/news/220416-italian-doping-doctor-michele-ferrari-jailed-18-months


Suspended sentence, I believe, so no time in the slammer.


----------



## Buddfox (5 Apr 2017)

Viking said:


> Suspended sentence, I believe, so no time in the slammer.



Ah, interesting - the article doesn't make that clear.


----------



## ColinJ (5 Apr 2017)

Buddfox said:


> Ah, interesting - the article doesn't make that clear.


This one _does_.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (13 Apr 2017)

Azerbaijan national champion Maksym Averin (Synergy Baku) and Kyrgyzstani cyclist Evgeny Vakker (aka Eugen Wacker) who rides for Massi-Kuwait cycling both provisionally suspended by the UCI following tests for meldonium.


----------



## rich p (13 Apr 2017)

Marmion said:


> Azerbaijan national champion Maksym Averin (Synergy Baku) and Kyrgyzstani cyclist Evgeny Vakker (aka Eugen Wacker) who rides for Massi-Kuwait cycling both provisionally suspended by the UCI following tests for meldonium.


Known in the trade as a Shazza...


----------



## DCLane (5 May 2017)

Two out of the Giro already from Bardiani CSF: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/39813546


----------



## PpPete (7 May 2017)

Have WADA banned sincerety pills?
Neither Peter Sagan & his extractor fans, nor Alexander Kristoff & his shampoo look totally convinced about their sponsor's messages.


----------



## SWSteve (7 May 2017)

For Nike's project <2hr marathon, they should have allowed all the drugs in the world - see what people can really do!


----------



## Crackle (7 May 2017)

PpPete said:


> Have WADA banned sincerety pills?
> Neither Peter Sagan & his extractor fans, nor Alexander Kristoff & his shampoo look totally convinced about their sponsor's messages.


I think they should have had one running in the bus and got one of them to trump, then they could all express relief that it was extracted before any damage was done.


----------



## themosquitoking (7 May 2017)

ItsSteveLovell said:


> For Nike's project <2hr marathon, they should have allowed all the drugs in the world - see what people can really do!


Pretty sure they're doing that already tbh.


----------



## SWSteve (7 May 2017)

themosquitoking said:


> Pretty sure they're doing that already tbh.


----------



## Buddfox (9 May 2017)

Meh...

http://road.cc/content/news/222318-...5000-damages-2005-vuelta-winner-roberto-heras


----------



## rich p (9 May 2017)

Buddfox said:


> Meh...
> 
> http://road.cc/content/news/222318-...5000-damages-2005-vuelta-winner-roberto-heras


FFS


----------



## rich p (20 May 2017)

Matteo Rabottini takes second place in S1 of the Tour of Albania, recently back since a 2 year ban.


----------



## smutchin (29 May 2017)

Don't know if we can read anything into this but as someone pointed out on twitter yesterday, Dumoulin is the first GT winner on an MPCC team.

ETA: or maybe not - first MPCC team winner since Nibali won the Tour in 2014, not long before Astana were kicked out. Hmmm.


----------



## Too Tyred (29 May 2017)

Why wouldn't teams join the MPCC?


----------



## smutchin (29 May 2017)

Two Tired said:


> Why wouldn't teams join the MPCC?



Look at it another way: why would they? 

If a club to promote clean cycling allows a team to join even while it's being run by an unapologetic doper and under threat of losing its UCI licence due to doping violations, what does that say about the club's 'credibility'?

To be fair, though, I do see Dumoulin's victory as a positive sign for the credibility of the sport. He is, as far as I know, entirely untainted by suspicion.


----------



## Too Tyred (29 May 2017)

smutchin said:


> Look at it another way: why would they?
> 
> If a club to promote clean cycling allows a team to join even while it's being run by an unapologetic doper and under threat of losing its UCI licence due to doping violations, what does that say about the club's 'credibility'?
> 
> To be fair, though, I do see Dumoulin's victory as a positive sign for the credibility of the sport. He is, as far as I know, entirely untainted by suspicion.



I had no idea about the team with the doping boss (which one?). Clearly something like that is going to raise suspicion - you're quite right there. From the outside it looks like a shining light of purity and to not join begs the question 'what are you hiding?' 

I agree with Dumoulin's win, very positive to see a new young rider entirely without suspicion. I think the way he won it too raises no doubt - winning big on the TT which everyone knows he's good at then using that TT technique up the climbs. Plus the fact that for large parts he looked to struggle that always helps, getting dropped and such. He wasn't riding away from everyone with a smile and a wave.


----------



## smutchin (30 May 2017)

Two Tired said:


> I had no idea about the team with the doping boss (which one?).



Astana & Vinokourov



> From the outside it looks like a shining light of purity and to not join begs the question 'what are you hiding?'



Shining light of purity? Pffft. AG2R is one of the founder members of the MPCC and team boss Vincent Lavenu has always been vocally anti-doping... and yet several of his team members have been banned for doping offences.

The MPCC was also rather slow to recognise that having Katusha, Lampre and Astana as members wasn't doing much for its credibility.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mpc...lampre-merida-only-joined-out-of-opportunism/

Anyway, all that aside, Dumoulin looks like a clean rider and his win is cause for optimism.


----------



## rich p (30 May 2017)

smutchin said:


> Shining light of purity?


Shades of Jonathan Aitken!


----------



## DCLane (13 Jun 2017)

68 year-old caught for the second time: http://road.cc/content/news/224019-68-year-old-canadian-cyclist-caught-doping-again

Does being paid $20,000 a year to race at that age make it worth doping?


----------



## rich p (14 Jun 2017)

DCLane said:


> 68 year-old caught for the second time: http://road.cc/content/news/224019-68-year-old-canadian-cyclist-caught-doping-again
> 
> Does being paid $20,000 a year to race at that age make it worth doping?


And the comments show that he's probably not alone and not entirely vilified.


----------



## Bollo (15 Jun 2017)

Can't be harsed to start a separate thread but Lance's bezzie mate and litigation enthusiast Hein Verbruggen has passed away.

http://road.cc/content/news/224223-controversial-former-uci-president-hein-verbruggen-dies-aged-75

Does he remain the UCI's eternal honorary president in the style of Kim Il Sung?


----------



## User169 (23 Jun 2017)

What'll they think of next!!

http://www.bicycling.com/training/is-poop-doping-the-next-big-thing


----------



## SWSteve (25 Jun 2017)

DP said:


> What'll they think of next!!
> 
> http://www.bicycling.com/training/is-poop-doping-the-next-big-thing



That articles full of shoot


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (27 Jun 2017)

One of Trek's Tour riders has tested +ve for EPO
http://www.uci.ch/pressreleases/uci-statement-andre-cardoso/

Haimar Zubeldia drafted in as a relacement


----------



## Viking (27 Jun 2017)

Marmion said:


> One of Trek's Tour riders has tested +ve for EPO
> http://www.uci.ch/pressreleases/uci-statement-andre-cardoso/



... another graduate of Vaughters Slipstream outfit


----------



## rich p (27 Jun 2017)

Marmion said:


> One of Trek's Tour riders has tested +ve for EPO
> http://www.uci.ch/pressreleases/uci-statement-andre-cardoso/
> 
> Haimar Zubeldia drafted in as a relacement


Blimey, Zulbeldia must be nearly as old as Horner. He might win the farking race!


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (27 Jun 2017)

He's proper old skool


----------



## Adam4868 (28 Jun 2017)

Marmion said:


> He's proper old skool
> 
> View attachment 359279


See Translation.........I'm fecked.


----------



## smutchin (28 Jun 2017)

Phil Gaimon not impressed:



> “It looks like almost every other denial, from Tyler Hamilton to Bill Cosby, and I can’t see how that ever works,” Gaimon wrote.



http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/phil-gaimon-critical-of-cardosos-epo-positive-defence/


----------



## rich p (28 Jun 2017)

rich p said:


> Blimey, Zulbeldia must be nearly as old as Horner. He might win the farking race!


I just read that he's the first TdF rider to be older than the President of France!


----------



## PpPete (28 Jun 2017)

rich p said:


> Blimey, Zulbeldia must be nearly as old as Horner. He might win the farking race!





rich p said:


> I just read that he's the first TdF rider to be older than the President of France!



Well Macron seems to be Teflon man despite scandals around those he's selected as ministers. 
If Zubeldia is as well coated you never know what might happen.


----------



## rich p (28 Jun 2017)

PpPete said:


> Well Macron seems to be Teflon man despite scandals around those he's selected as ministers


Well Contador seems to be Teflon man despite scandals around those he's selected as domestiques...


----------



## FishFright (6 Jul 2017)

I'm looking forward to seeing Grunt Thomas's TUE's post Giro and pre yellow jersey


----------



## SWSteve (6 Jul 2017)

FishFright said:


> I'm looking forward to seeing Grunt Thomas's TUE's post Giro and pre yellow jersey



What


----------



## smutchin (16 Jul 2017)

Lionel Birnie's interview with Michael Rasmussen for the Kilometre Zero offshoot off the Cycling Podcast is well worth a listen. "Unrepentant" is putting it mildly...

https://audioboom.com/posts/6098488-kilometre-0-ten-years-after


----------



## SWSteve (16 Jul 2017)

smutchin said:


> Lionel Birnie's interview with Michael Rasmussen for the Kilometre Zero offshoot off the Cycling Podcast is well worth a listen. "Unrepentant" is putting it mildly...
> 
> https://audioboom.com/posts/6098488-kilometre-0-ten-years-after



I found that a really bizarre listen. I can imagine having the team go above the rules to eject you must be a bitter pill to swallow - but it wasn't exactly unjustified.

Like many, he seems to be upset by being caught, not by the fact he cheated. Birnie at times seemed strained by what Rasmussen was saying.


----------



## rich p (17 Aug 2017)

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/samuel-sanchez-tests-positive-in-out-of-competition-control/

Sammy Sanchez nicked now. What a twunt.


----------



## smutchin (17 Aug 2017)

I just read that and was about to post it myself. The sodding twerp.

I never did like him much anyway.


----------



## rich p (17 Aug 2017)

Looking on the bright side, it saves him fretting over whether to retire this year...


----------



## Crackle (17 Aug 2017)

I thought the cloud of suspicion had always hung over him.


----------



## MacB (17 Aug 2017)

Crackle said:


> I thought the cloud of suspicion had always hung over him.



Easier to list who it doesn't hang over, isn't it?


----------



## Crackle (17 Aug 2017)

MacB said:


> Easier to list who it doesn't hang over, isn't it?


Hmmm, I think there's a growing list of them but Sammy Sanchez was old skool.


----------



## mjr (17 Aug 2017)

Crackle said:


> Hmmm, I think there's a growing list of them but Sammy Sanchez was old skool.


Indeed. I was half expecting to see it was EPO rather than a GHRP.


----------



## rich p (17 Aug 2017)

MacB said:


> Easier to list who it doesn't hang over, isn't it?


Cynic!
I'd be gutted if one of the young dudes on the block now, was nailed. 
You can see by the manner of the racing that it's cleaner than it ever has been. The old skool and the desperate will still try though.


----------



## themosquitoking (17 Aug 2017)

rich p said:


> Cynic!
> I'd be gutted if one of the young dudes on the block now, was nailed.
> You can see by the manner of the racing that it's cleaner than it ever has been. The old skool and the desperate will still try though.


I can see what you mean about the racing but someone will, much as i'd like to think cycling will never have another doper someone always will.


----------



## HF2300 (17 Aug 2017)

Crackle said:


> Hmmm, I think there's a growing list of them but Sammy Sanchez was old skool.



Not that old skool, he evidently didn't have avoiding out of competition testing down to a fine art.



themosquitoking said:


> much as i'd like to think cycling will never have another doper someone always will.



There'll always be someone who wants to take a short cut but at least it's better than (nearly) every bugger doing it.


----------



## ColinJ (19 Aug 2017)

We may have already covered this, but I can't remember and can't be bothered to search this now very lengthy thread to check ...

Do you think that a team should be able to replace a rider entered for a race but then caught doping?

I think not. It might mean collateral damage to genuinely innocent teams but it would help reinforce the anti-doping message.


----------



## SWSteve (19 Aug 2017)

ColinJ said:


> We may have already covered this, but I can't remember and can't be bothered to search this now very lengthy thread to check ...
> 
> Do you think that a team should be able to replace a rider entered for a race but then caught doping?
> 
> I think not. It might mean collateral damage to genuinely innocent teams but it would help reinforce the anti-doping message.



I'm with you on that. It would be much more punishing for the team, and would disincentivise turning a blind eye to 'lone individual' activities


----------



## smutchin (19 Aug 2017)

When does the start list become 'official'? I thought it wasn't until they turned up and signed on at the start of the race. So any team is free to make changes to their announced line-up, for any reason, right up to that point.


----------



## ColinJ (19 Aug 2017)

Delay announcing the result of the dope test until the rider signs on and _then_ ban him/her!


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (20 Aug 2017)

smutchin said:


> When does the start list become 'official'? I thought it wasn't until they turned up and signed on at the start of the race. So any team is free to make changes to their announced line-up, for any reason, right up to that point.


Not sure about that, didn't Bardiani ride without a full team earlier this year?


----------



## 400bhp (20 Aug 2017)

Correct with Bardiani, albeit they probably didn't have any other clean riders to draft in.

I vaguely remember something about a rider falling sick just before the race and they weren't allowed to replace

It makes sense to have some lead time as I can imagine there's a lot of stuff needs to be determined by the organisers pre race.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (20 Aug 2017)

400bhp said:


> Correct with Bardiani, albeit they probably didn't have any other clean riders to draft in.
> 
> I vaguely remember something about a rider falling sick just before the race and they weren't allowed to replace
> 
> It makes sense to have some lead time as I can imagine there's a lot of stuff needs to be determined by the organisers pre race.


They had 2 riders fail dope tests iirc


----------



## smutchin (20 Aug 2017)

Marmion said:


> Not sure about that, didn't Bardiani ride without a full team earlier this year?



In that case, the news broke just after the team presentation - uncanny timing!

Interestingly, it's the same product that Pirazzi and Ruffoni tested positive for - one that they've only recently developed a test for...


----------



## smutchin (20 Aug 2017)

400bhp said:


> It makes sense to have some lead time as I can imagine there's a lot of stuff needs to be determined by the organisers pre race.



I would imagine it matters more to the teams, who have to organise travel for riders, as well as getting all their kit and bikes to the race. 

From the organisers' point of view, as long as the riders are properly registered, it probably doesn't matter too much to them who the team sends.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (20 Aug 2017)

smutchin said:


> When does the start list become 'official'? I thought it wasn't until they turned up and signed on at the start of the race. So any team is free to make changes to their announced line-up, for any reason, right up to that point.





smutchin said:


> In that case, the news broke just after the team presentation - uncanny timing!
> 
> Interestingly, it's the same product that Pirazzi and Ruffoni tested positive for - one that they've only recently developed a test for...



I always thought the team presentation and team signing on were not the same thing - maybe they are. But I have never seen any riders "sign on" at a presentation although have seen "signing on" just before a stage.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (20 Aug 2017)

smutchin said:


> In that case, the news broke just after the team presentation - uncanny timing!
> 
> Interestingly, it's the same product that Pirazzi and Ruffoni tested positive for - one that they've only recently developed a test for...





Marmion said:


> I always thought the team presentation and team signing on were not the same thing - maybe they are. But I have never seen any riders "sign on" at a presentation although have seen "signing on" just before a stage.



I just checked the Vuelta rules and registration was between 10am - 2pm on Thursday 17th August, so prior to the team presentation. 
I tried to find the rules for the Giro but wasn't successful but imagine they have a similar approach - so, wait until the teams register and then announce doping violations = team impact. Then again, it's Bardiani...


----------



## smutchin (20 Aug 2017)

Marmion said:


> I always thought the team presentation and team signing on were not the same thing - maybe they are.



Sorry, didn't really mean to suggest they were the same thing - my understanding is that the presentation is just the formal public announcement of the team line-up, with the assumption that all the official paperwork is done behind the scenes beforehand. In any case, yes, there does seem to have been an element of hangng Bardiani out to dry, while in BMC's case, the authorities have acted swiftly to minimise the impact on the team.

You can understand why they would do that to Bardiani, but it's interesting that BMC as a team does not seem to have been tainted by this in the public perception. But the more I think about it, the more I think it's really pretty scandalous. I can't imagine Sky would have got away with it so lightly if it had been one of their riders. And let's not forget that BMC have the Andy Rihs connection...

Never really considered Sanchez as an especially dirty rider, although he has been around long enough to be tainted by association with the Armstrong era, and Euskaltel-Euskadi were prone to the odd doping scandal (Mayo, Astarloza, Gonzalez...). I've just never liked him because of his egotism and his tiresome milking of the Olympics win. He does seem very popular in the peloton though.


----------



## mjr (20 Aug 2017)

Will the 2008 Olympics sample be retested?


----------



## rich p (24 Aug 2017)

More of a dopey git.
Recently retired Jack Bobridge nicked for dealing in Ecstasy.
http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/wes...t/news-story/d981c3d57049b58da75e46277457f5c1


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (27 Aug 2017)

Marmion said:


> He's proper old skool
> 
> View attachment 359279





Adam4868 said:


> See Translation.........I'm fecked.





smutchin said:


> Phil Gaimon not impressed:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/phil-gaimon-critical-of-cardosos-epo-positive-defence/



Breaking news on twitterland is that Cardoso's B-sample has come back as negative.
I never doubted him obvs...


----------



## ColinJ (27 Aug 2017)

Marmion said:


> Breaking news on twitterland is that Cardoso's B-sample has come back as negative.
> I never doubted him obvs...


----------



## Crackle (15 Sep 2017)

This is such a terrible and tragic story on so many levels.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/rumsas-under-investigation-into-sons-death/

When I read the report of his death, the first thing that occurred to me was drugs. I cannot imagine a world in which I would deliberately risk my children's lives.


----------



## Adam4868 (15 Sep 2017)

Shocking story,sad.


----------



## rich p (15 Sep 2017)

Crackle said:


> This is such a terrible and tragic story on so many levels.
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/rumsas-under-investigation-into-sons-death/
> 
> When I read the report of his death, the first thing that occurred to me was drugs. I cannot imagine a world in which I would deliberately risk my children's lives.


As much of a dope as a doper. Poor kid


----------



## smutchin (15 Sep 2017)

Crackle said:


> This is such a terrible and tragic story on so many levels.



Grim.


----------



## Doseone (18 Sep 2017)

Crackle said:


> This is such a terrible and tragic story on so many levels.
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/rumsas-under-investigation-into-sons-death/
> 
> When I read the report of his death, the first thing that occurred to me was drugs. I cannot imagine a world in which I would deliberately risk my children's lives.


This is a really sad story. I didn't know anything about Rumsas before reading this, but reading that article seems like the family has form.


----------



## User169 (3 Oct 2017)

What a family...

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/rumsas-tragedy-continues-as-raimondas-jr-tests-positive/


----------



## Doseone (3 Oct 2017)

DP said:


> What a family...
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/rumsas-tragedy-continues-as-raimondas-jr-tests-positive/



What makes this even worse is the timing - only months after his brother died.


----------



## rich p (3 Oct 2017)

Gawd above. What a bunch.

In other news, Davide Rebellin won a race at the age of 46 last week.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (3 Oct 2017)

Pirazzi gets 4 year ban for his pre-Giro positive


----------



## Adam4868 (3 Oct 2017)

rich p said:


> Gawd above. What a bunch.
> 
> In other news, Davide Rebellin won a race at the age of 46 last week.


Thats me fecked,big 5 0 coming up !


----------



## rich p (3 Oct 2017)

Adam4868 said:


> Thats me fecked,big 5 0 coming up !


Just coming into your prime


----------



## Adam4868 (3 Oct 2017)

rich p said:


> Just coming into your prime


You say all the right things x


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (4 Oct 2017)

Sammy Sanchez B sample comes back as positive and he's sacked by BMC
https://www.bmc-switzerland.com/int...rding_samuel_sanchez_anti_doping_violation-1/


----------



## SWSteve (6 Oct 2017)

Marmion said:


> Sammy Sanchez B sample comes back as positive and he's sacked by BMC
> https://www.bmc-switzerland.com/int...rding_samuel_sanchez_anti_doping_violation-1/



I don’t recall seeing much between tests, so the silence seemed deafening


----------



## Adam4868 (8 Nov 2017)

https://tinyurl.com/yclo5k6f
Mechanical doping ?


----------



## Crackle (8 Nov 2017)

Adam4868 said:


> https://tinyurl.com/yclo5k6f
> Mechanical doping ?


Ouch!

Lawyers may get involved in this one.


----------



## mjr (8 Nov 2017)

Page Not Found thanks to the swear filter - easily fixed.


----------



## Crackle (8 Nov 2017)

mjr said:


> Page Not Found thanks to the swear filter - easily fixed.


Fixed.


----------



## Doseone (17 Nov 2017)

Was listening to an interview with Jonathan Vaughters and he was asked what percentage of the peloton he thinks are still doping. His response was that he doesn't know, but he really feels that the measures that are in place now make it much harder to take a ped that will have a significant affect on the outcome of a race. He felt that previously, riders on ped's were untouchable to those that weren't whereas now he thinks it is entirely possible for a clean rider to win a race.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (17 Nov 2017)

View: https://twitter.com/f_cancellara/status/931557302657798145


----------



## mjr (19 Nov 2017)

Finish 95th in a 25 mile TT, fail a random dope test for three banned substances, then blame your wife. 4 year ban. http://www.cyclist.co.uk/news/3677/...drugs-test-after-finishing-95th-in-25-mile-tt


----------



## rich p (28 Nov 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> Eight positives in Vuelta a Colombia
> http://road.cc/content/news/232986-eight-cyclists-caught-doping-vuelta-colombia


Not for the first time drug abuse is rife in S America,


----------



## Ming the Merciless (28 Nov 2017)

rich p said:


> Not for the first time drug abuse is rife in S America,



Sponsored by....


----------



## themosquitoking (28 Nov 2017)

rich p said:


> Not for the first time drug abuse is rife in S America,


I'm not going to my dealer and asking for an ounce of 19-noretiocholanolone and 19-norandrosterone.


----------



## rich p (28 Nov 2017)

themosquitoking said:


> I'm not going to my dealer and asking for an ounce of 19-noretiocholanolone and 19-norandrosterone.


Pablo Escobar and Michele Ferrari have never been seen in the same room, as far as I know!


----------



## themosquitoking (28 Nov 2017)

rich p said:


> Pablo Escobar and Michele Ferrari have never been seen in the same room, as far as I know!


Yeah yeah, how much did they pay you to say that?


----------



## rich p (28 Nov 2017)

themosquitoking said:


> Yeah yeah, how much did they pay you to say that?


An offer I couldn't refuse...

...or am I confusing my gangster genres


----------



## FishFright (28 Nov 2017)

rich p said:


> Not for the first time drug abuse is rife in Pro Cycling,



FTFY


----------



## themosquitoking (28 Nov 2017)

rich p said:


> An offer I couldn't refuse...
> 
> ...or am I confusing my gangster genres


Is there more than one gangster genre?


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (29 Nov 2017)

rich p said:


> Pablo Escobar and Michele Ferrari have never been seen in the same room, as far as I know!


Pablo used to be a "big sponsor" of cycling in Colombia and even had his own outdoor track; his brother, Roberto, used to be a professional. The shite I know...


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (16 Dec 2017)

Michael Bresciani is not a doping git despite failing a dope test at the Italian road race championship in June:


----------



## Bollo (16 Dec 2017)

Froome needs Filippo's number quick-sharp.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (16 Dec 2017)

https://www.teamsky.com/sponsors/muc-off

Stops mud sticking and removes existing mud; as sponsored by Team Sky


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (19 Dec 2017)

The doping git Vino to stand trial, alongside Kolobnev, for corruption related to the 2010 LBL
http://www.lameuse.be/168135/articl...ces-vinokourovkolobnev-debute-le-13-mars-2018


----------



## mjr (19 Dec 2017)

Marmion said:


> The doping git Vino to stand trial, alongside Kolobnev, for corruption related to the 2010 LBL
> http://www.lameuse.be/168135/articl...ces-vinokourovkolobnev-debute-le-13-mars-2018


Paywalled  Isn't he accused of buying the win, rather than doping?


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (19 Dec 2017)

mjr said:


> Paywalled  Isn't he accused of buying the win, rather than doping?


Yeh, but he's a doping git so I included it here rather than starting a new thread.


----------



## ColinJ (28 Dec 2017)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Anyone seen the latest Ricardo Ricco news? Apparently he's involved in a new investigation into supplying doping products... the guy is really the most enormous tool, and apparently dumb as muck:
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/riccardo-ricc-caught-up-in-new-drug-investigation-in-italy/





Bollo said:


> That'll mess with his 2024 comeback plans.





oldroadman said:


> He really is stupid. He'll end up in jail and deserves it.


Latest update - Ricco intends to make a comeback aged 40 at the end of his lengthy blood doping ban. He thinks 'chemical doping' is much better than 'mechanical doping' ....


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (29 Dec 2017)

ColinJ said:


> Latest update - Ricco intends to make a comeback aged 40 at the end of his lengthy blood doping ban. He thinks 'chemical doping' is much better than 'mechanical doping' ....


Feck me.


----------



## hoopdriver (29 Dec 2017)

ColinJ said:


> Latest update - Ricco intends to make a comeback aged 40 at the end of his lengthy blood doping ban. He thinks 'chemical doping' is much better than 'mechanical doping' ....


It’s lovely to know he sets boundaries. I wonder if he ever considered the astonishing and novel concept of honesty and fair play - no doping at all, either mechanical or chemical - and the reputation of the sport of cycling which he professes to love?


----------



## rich p (29 Dec 2017)

He'll be the perfect age to win the Vuelta as clean as Chris Horner.


----------



## Bollo (29 Dec 2017)

ColinJ said:


> Latest update - Ricco intends to make a comeback aged 40 at the end of his lengthy blood doping ban. He thinks 'chemical doping' is much better than 'mechanical doping' ....


 I read that article and I think I now know the identity of blazed.

I’d love to see a team sponsored by dog ice cream though. That’s a rep kit I’d wear.


----------



## User169 (29 Dec 2017)

Bollo said:


> I read that article and I think I now know the identity of blazed.
> 
> I’d love to see a team sponsored by dog ice cream though. That’s a rep kit I’d wear.



Ice cream for Froome Dogs?


----------



## smutchin (8 Jan 2018)

LottoNL-Jumbo kicks out three riders caught using sleeping pills on a training camp...

http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/r...definitely-possessing-sleep-medication-363223

The piece says the product used has not been identified but according to Daniel Friebe on the Cycling Podcast, it's Stilnox, which is the same stuff Cofidis riders were snorting for fun back in the day.

Antwan "I don't do interviews" Tolhoek is clearly a prize dick.

Apparently, Lobato has been sacked from the team. The other two have been 'expelled indefinitely' which suggests they will probably be allowed back in when the team feel they've learned their lesson. Worth noting that Stilnox is not a controlled/banned substance so there is no reason for the UCI to get involved, but it's good to see a team taking action against its own riders for breaking internal team rules - and adopting a very firm (and public) stance on riders taking substances not approved by the team as a general principle.


----------



## User169 (16 Jan 2018)

Interesting piece on “consumer” attitudes to doping. 

Essentially we don’t care (well less than sponsors) and the more interested we are in sport the less we care. We also tend to view it as a rotten furriner thing. (pretty evident from the reaction to Froome on this forum).

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2018/jan/15/maria-sharapova-indifference-doping-sean-ingle


----------



## rich p (1 Feb 2018)

Disappointingly, several cyclists passed the clean rider test at the Vuelta a Costa Rica...

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/vue...g-12-riders-to-test-positive-in-2017-edition/


----------



## Crackle (8 Feb 2018)

DP said:


> What a family...
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/rumsas-tragedy-continues-as-raimondas-jr-tests-positive/


Not just the family it seems. Real old school doping.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/six-charged-in-connection-with-linas-rumsas-death-investigation/


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (8 Feb 2018)

Crackle said:


> Not just the family it seems. Real old school doping.
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/six-charged-in-connection-with-linas-rumsas-death-investigation/


It's still fecked


----------



## mjr (28 Mar 2018)

Lance NOT to fark Flanders http://www.velonews.com/2018/03/news/lance-armstrong-cancels-talk-tour-flanders-function_461275


----------



## mjr (5 Apr 2018)

http://www.velonews.com/2018/04/news/bruyneel-doping-didnt-start-us-didnt-end-us_462238 Bruyneel trots out the "everyone did it" justification again.


----------



## DRM (11 Apr 2018)

Another one caught out for suspected EPO use

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/di-gregorio-provisionally-suspended-for-epo/


----------



## PpPete (12 Apr 2018)

DRM said:


> Another one caught out for suspected EPO use
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/di-gregorio-provisionally-suspended-for-epo/


Depressing.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (12 Apr 2018)

DRM said:


> Another one caught out for suspected EPO use
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/di-gregorio-provisionally-suspended-for-epo/



The CC doping git identifiers are well ahead of the UCI, this from March 2011 Paris-Nice Spoilers thread:



raindog said:


> Over here we've waited five years for Di Gregorio to do something, he switches to Astana and is taken under Vino's wing and suddenly wins a stage of a prestigious race. Hmmmm.......





Noodley said:


> My thoughts exactly raindog! Leaves the squeaky clean FdeJ and goes to Team Evil ... he wins. Large Hmmmmm...


----------



## smutchin (12 Apr 2018)

Thanks for the reminder @Marmion - I knew there was a reason my spidey-sense started tingling when he cropped up in that stage of Paris-Nice recently. He's been under the radar for a few years.


----------



## DRM (12 Apr 2018)

Marmion said:


> The CC doping git identifiers are well ahead of the UCI, this from March 2011 Paris-Nice Spoilers thread:


Proof a leopard doesn’t change it’s spots, the article doesn’t mention it, only his being caught up in a raid when at Cofidis but the items found were legitimate supplements, I bet he retires again now.


----------



## MikeG (19 Apr 2018)

Not sure if this is the right thread, but Armstrong has settled his law suit with the US government, for $5 million (instead of the $100 million it might have been. I reckon he might be seeing that as something of a result.

mail.com


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (21 Apr 2018)

MikeG said:


> Not sure if this is the right thread, but Armstrong has settled his law suit with the US government, for $5 million (instead of the $100 million it might have been. I reckon he might be seeing that as something of a result.
> 
> mail.com


No surprise I suppose. Loose change.


----------



## rich p (22 Apr 2018)

Marmion said:


> No surprise I suppose. Loose change.


At least that nasty little gobshite, Landis, doesn't get to be a multi-millionaire off the back of it.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (1 May 2018)

Brace yourselves. Take a seat. Prepare to be amazed.

Cyclist admits to faking injuries and illnesses in order to get TUEs.
http://www.velonews.com/2018/04/new...ampaign=7223965&utm_content=050118_VeloNewsNL


----------



## roadrash (1 May 2018)

now theres a shock...


----------



## rich p (2 May 2018)

He's also admitted taking legal drugs like caffeine and tramadol. Anything to try desperately bump up book sales


----------



## User169 (2 May 2018)

More in the Dutch press today, saying that the Vacansoleil systematically used TUEs to give its riders cortisone...

https://www.ad.nl/giro/een-uitslag-rijden-zonder-cortisonen-dat-bestond-niet~a49b154b/

The headline quote 'Een uitslag rijden zonder cortisonen, dat bestond niet' roughly translates as "A result without cortisone doesn't exist".

One of the authors of the piece, Thijs Zonneveld, is a pretty well known bike journalist (he ghosted Thomas Dekker's biog), so I don't expect that it's complete bollocks.


----------



## mjr (2 May 2018)

DP said:


> More in the Dutch press today, saying that the Vacansoleil systematically used TUEs to give its riders cortisone...
> 
> https://www.ad.nl/giro/een-uitslag-rijden-zonder-cortisonen-dat-bestond-niet~a49b154b/
> 
> ...


I may be wrong (my Dutch is weak so it's not an easy read and AD's website is pretty nasty) but the closest quote in the article body seems to be "Je was een hele knaap als je een uitslag zonder cortison kon rijden. Naar mijn idee bestond dat niet." = "You were a great guy if you could produce a result without cortisone. To my mind, that doesn't happen." Is that as ambiguous about whether it applies to only him or everyone as I think it is?


----------



## rich p (24 Jun 2018)

I may have put this in the wrong section....

but the evergreen Chris Horner is making a comeback in the US Nationals at the ripe old age of 46.


----------



## ColinJ (24 Jun 2018)

rich p said:


> I may have put this in the wrong section....
> 
> but the evergreen Chris Horner is making a comeback in the US Nationals at the ripe old age of 46.




He is able to do it because the USA has no decent riders below that age ...


----------



## Bollo (24 Jun 2018)

Looks like the UCI have read the last couple of posts.

http://inrng.com/2018/06/uci-to-introduce-cortisol-testing-and-ban-tramadol/#more-33818


----------



## smutchin (28 Jun 2018)

Movistar's Jaime Roson has been flagged for a slight cock-up on the biological passport front.

Apparently this dates back to Jan 2017 when he was at Caja Rural. They've not yet announced the details of the AAF but he is provisionally suspended with immediate effect.

No idea if he was due to ride the Tour anyway.

http://www.cyclist.co.uk/news/4954/...analytical-finding-in-his-biological-passport


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (28 Jun 2018)

smutchin said:


> Movistar's Jaime Roson has been flagged for a slight cock-up on the biological passport front.
> 
> Apparently this dates back to Jan 2017 when he was at Caja Rural. They've not yet announced the details of the AAF but he is provisionally suspended with immediate effect.
> 
> ...


I'm gonna guess that a lot of other riders, not as high profile possibly, still just get a wee "heads up" letter...


----------



## Adam4868 (7 Jul 2018)

View: https://twitter.com/velonews/status/1014879922827870209?s=19


----------



## User169 (23 Jul 2018)

Lochte you d(iv)

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/jul/23/ryan-lochte-doping-rule-ban-14-months-swimming


----------



## ColinJ (23 Jul 2018)

DP said:


> Lochte you d(iv)
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/jul/23/ryan-lochte-doping-rule-ban-14-months-swimming


Blimey, it is '_Spot the braincell_' time!


----------



## smutchin (23 Jul 2018)

What a moron!


----------



## Beebo (23 Jul 2018)

ColinJ said:


> Blimey, it is '_Spot the braincell_' time!


This is the same guy who faked an armed robbery in Rio, when it actually transpired that he has been beaten up for urinating on a petrol station.


----------



## Crackle (23 Jul 2018)

Every now and again sport gifts us such people to oggle at in wonder.

Anyway, wrong thread alert!


----------



## User169 (26 Jul 2018)

Awww. What a nice man! 

http://www.msn.com/en-us/foodanddri...-bought-everyones-meals/ar-BBL5iuO?ocid=ientp


----------



## rich p (26 Jul 2018)

DP said:


> Awww. What a nice man!
> 
> http://www.msn.com/en-us/foodanddri...-bought-everyones-meals/ar-BBL5iuO?ocid=ientp


Let's hope they refused.


----------



## mjr (26 Jul 2018)

Now we know what to do whenever we see Lance!


----------



## Va Va Froome (26 Jul 2018)

I wonder if the French police bought Froome his tea?


----------



## Beebo (26 Jul 2018)

Va Va Froome said:


> I wonder if the French police bought Froome his tea?


Apparently the police man broke Froome’s bike, so an expensive stop and search operation. 
Lucky he doesn’t have to pay for his bikes.


----------



## Bollo (10 Aug 2018)

As good a place as any for this.....

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/aug/10/jan-ullrich-arrested-frankfurt-cyclist

Ullrich tries to outdo Pantani when it comes to doubtful lifestyle choices.


----------



## smutchin (10 Aug 2018)

Bollo said:


> Ullrich tries to outdo Pantani when it comes to doubtful lifestyle choices.



I find it all quite sad, especially as I was a big fan of his back in the day - always rooted for him to beat that American fella.


----------



## Bollo (10 Aug 2018)

smutchin said:


> I find it all quite sad, especially as I was a big fan of his back in the day - always rooted for him to beat that American fella.


I can’t say I ever cared for him really, but it’s not a nice story.

He’s been the ‘brand ambassador’ for Rose bikes in Germany and I get sent their glossy magazine a couple of times a year as I bought my TT bike from them. Going back to the discussion (TdF thread?) about how riders’ reputations aren’t necessarily knackered by a doping offence, I did get frustrated at the complete wash in the magazine’s Jan stories. It was almost at the level of “Jan takes a dump” but his difficult past was not mentioned at all.


----------



## BalkanExpress (5 Sep 2018)

Siutsou in the shiut..

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/siutsou-tests-positive-for-epo-in-out-of-competition-test/


----------



## brommers (6 Sep 2018)

Siutsou? Isn't that a type of yappy little dog?


----------



## rich p (6 Sep 2018)

I wonder if Sky had any inkling. They dumped somebody else who later tested +ve. Possoni?


----------



## Crackle (6 Sep 2018)

So despite the rumours, it's still good old epo that's the weapon of choice.


----------



## mjr (6 Sep 2018)

Crackle said:


> So despite the rumours, it's still good old epo that's the weapon of choice.


If epo's the weapon of choice, users should be obvious from their behaviour in the hotel:

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wCDIYvFmgW8


----------



## cisamcgu (6 Sep 2018)

A general question really, but what is the most "obvious" example of doping ? By this I mean, who has been mediocre (not that any professional cyclist is mediocre, but you know what I mean) for all of their career and then suddenly sprouts wings and flies like a bird, climbs like a goat, rides like the wind ... - it has to be someone subsequently found to be doping, not just a suspect, not matter how suspect they may be


----------



## roadrash (6 Sep 2018)

Cough... Chris Horner.... cough


----------



## cisamcgu (6 Sep 2018)

Did he get caught doping ?


----------



## roadrash (6 Sep 2018)

No but god knows how he didnt


----------



## smutchin (6 Sep 2018)

Michael Rasmussen springs to mind - kicked out of the Tour and fired by his team while wearing the yellow jersey, though not for failing a test, rather for lying about his whereabouts, though he did later admit to doping.

I also remember a few years ago Danilo "Killer" Diluca and Mauro Santambrogio tearing up the first week of the Giro while riding for the makeweight Vini Fantini team. It was a great surprise to everyone when they were busted. Not.

Bjarne "Mr 60%" Riis is another classic example of a fairly ordinary rider who miraculously became a Grand Tour champion.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (6 Sep 2018)

cisamcgu said:


> A general question really, but what is the most "obvious" example of doping ? By this I mean, who has been mediocre (not that any professional cyclist is mediocre, but you know what I mean) for all of their career and then suddenly sprouts wings and flies like a bird, climbs like a goat, rides like the wind ... - it has to be someone subsequently found to be doping, not just a suspect, not matter how suspect they may be


Armstrong


----------



## cisamcgu (6 Sep 2018)

But Armstrong was always a good, perhaps always doping, but he didn't leap out of no-where ?


----------



## rich p (6 Sep 2018)

cisamcgu said:


> But Armstrong was always a good, perhaps always doping, but he didn't leap out of no-where ?


You're never going to win the tdf, if that's what you're asking but a few percentage additions can transform a decent pro rider.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (6 Sep 2018)

cisamcgu said:


> But Armstrong was always a good, perhaps always doping, but he didn't leap out of no-where ?


No he wasn't; his first 4 Tours de France included 3 x DNF and 36th. And then he got "serious"...


----------



## cisamcgu (6 Sep 2018)

Pro Tour Punditry said:


> No he wasn't; his first 4 Tours de France included 3 x DNF and 36th. And then he got "serious"...



Fair enough


----------



## Bollo (6 Sep 2018)

Crackle said:


> So despite the rumours, it's still good old epo that's the weapon of choice.


It’s like the drugging equivalent of L’Eroica.


----------



## mjr (6 Sep 2018)

Landis went from mid-table à la Zubeldia to winning GCs between the 2005&6 seasons, then his final Tour de France yoyo was pretty epic. Blood doping hadn't been enough so he resorted to testosterone use IIRC. He returned in 2010 to find his true level, taking 2nd on GC at Tour of the Battenkill (a US pro-am 100km) and 4th at Tour of Southland (then a NZ national series race).


----------



## BalkanExpress (8 Sep 2018)

rich p said:


> I wonder if Sky had any inkling. They dumped somebody else who later tested +ve. Possoni?



Possibly. Although He has been gone from Sky for almost 3 years.

Richard Moore on the cycling podcast suggested that as KS was out of contract at the end of the season and likely to retire he had nothing to lose


----------



## rich p (14 Sep 2018)

You've got to admire WADA's stamina!
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/wada-continues-battle-to-name-athletes-involved-in-operacion-puerto/


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (14 Sep 2018)

rich p said:


> You've got to admire WADA's stamina!
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/wada-continues-battle-to-name-athletes-involved-in-operacion-puerto/


ValvPiti will be trembling in his shoes


----------



## rich p (14 Sep 2018)

Rafa?


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (14 Sep 2018)

rich p said:


> Rafa?


He'll be fine, as will all the soccerball chaps.


----------



## BalkanExpress (15 Sep 2018)

rich p said:


> Rafa?



Well, if I had to manage Newcastle, I’d be doing everything I could lay my hands on.


----------



## smutchin (16 Sep 2018)

rich p said:


> Rafa?



I presume the Spanish authorities are waiting for Rafa and Valverde to retire, along with several Barcelona and Real Madrid players, before they say, “Oh, go on then, you can publish the names...”


----------



## rich p (24 Oct 2018)

The irony of the doping Landis stating that cycling won't change till the management changes...
...as he prepares to start a team.
I'm not sure why CyclingNews/Weakly keep giving him the oxygen of publicity.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/floyd-landis-cycling-is-no-cleaner-today/

This bit made me snigger
_I understand why he views it the way he does. I hope he finds some peace and can move on. _(LA)
Physician, heal thyself.


----------



## mjr (24 Oct 2018)

rich p said:


> The irony of the doping Landis stating that cycling won't change till the management changes...
> ...as he prepares to start a team.
> I'm not sure why CyclingNews/Weakly keep giving him the oxygen of publicity.
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/floyd-landis-cycling-is-no-cleaner-today/
> ...


He's trying to, isn't he? And an ex- doper who seems to loathe his past actions and the management pressure to dope is a change in type of management.

That said, I've less confidence that that poacher's really turned into a gamekeeper than previous ones like Millar.


----------



## Stonechat (24 Oct 2018)

Bruyneel's ban extended to lifetime by court for arbitration in sport


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (24 Oct 2018)

Stonechat said:


> Bruyneel's ban extended to lifetime by court for arbitration in sport


We might as well laugh...


----------



## mjr (24 Oct 2018)

Bruyneel replies:

View: https://www.twitter.com/JohanBruyneel/status/1055169038962311168

Does he have any point that USADA has no jurisdiction over him? Wasn't he under their jurisdiction due to managing a US-registered team containing many US-registered riders?

Also, I missed this. I guess he's not going to the USA unless he's $1½m to spare: https://www.velonews.com/2018/08/ro...o-pay-over-1-million-to-u-s-government_476156


----------



## mjr (24 Oct 2018)

So what does USADA think about Floyd's latest business then? https://www.usada.org/five-things-know-about-cannabidiol/


----------



## mjr (29 Oct 2018)

Wiggins says Lance is the perfect winner of the TdF https://road.cc/content/news/250751...inner-tour-de-france-says-sir-bradley-wiggins


----------



## Adam4868 (29 Oct 2018)

mjr said:


> Wiggins says Lance is the perfect winner of the TdF https://road.cc/content/news/250751...inner-tour-de-france-says-sir-bradley-wiggins


He's not trying to sell a book is he ?


----------



## mjr (29 Oct 2018)

Adam4868 said:


> He's not trying to sell a book is he ?


Why would you think tha.... Oh wait "Wiggins made his comments in his book Icons"

What's the poster blurb going to be? "An ideal christmas present for cyclists who like their asthma meds injected in their bum"? Seems like niche marketing. Or should that be crack?


----------



## Adam4868 (29 Oct 2018)

@mjr 
View: https://twitter.com/SirWiggo/status/1056896710075707393?s=19


----------



## mjr (29 Oct 2018)

Adam4868 said:


> @mjr
> View: https://twitter.com/SirWiggo/status/1056896710075707393?s=19



I'm slightly more likely to burn the copies of his and Lance's lying books together!


----------



## Browser (27 Nov 2018)

I watched Stop at Nothing on Netflix the other night, I'm not intending to re-hash the whole Lance Legweak story again, but the psychology of the people who were taken in by the lie (in their millions) is what interests me now. Are we all so scared of telling the emperor hes not wearing any clothes, are we all far too willing to believe in Santa Claus, fairies at the bottom of the garden and cyclists who can climb like there's a rocket up their jacksie whilst talking to their team on the radio, or was he _that _good a snake oil salesman we were swept along by his bullshit? Comments welcomed.


----------



## FishFright (27 Nov 2018)

Browser said:


> I watched Stop at Nothing on Netflix the other night, I'm not intending to re-hash the whole Lance Legweak story again, but the psychology of the people who were taken in by the lie (in their millions) is what interests me now. Are we all so scared of telling the emperor hes not wearing any clothes, are we all far too willing to believe in Santa Claus, fairies at the bottom of the garden and cyclists who can climb like there's a rocket up their jacksie whilst talking to their team on the radio, or was he _that _good a snake oil salesman we were swept along by his bullshit? Comments welcomed.



It was hard to tell him from any different from any other top level sportsman at the time, it was the era of unfettered doping with just a cursory attempt at catching the stars which earn the organisers a living ... so no change really

Also it's a movie ....


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (30 Nov 2018)

FishFright said:


> It was hard to tell him from any different from any other top level sportsman at the time, it was the era of unfettered doping with just a cursory attempt at catching the stars which earn the organisers a living ... so no change really
> 
> Also it's a movie ....


It was very easy to identify what he was doing, as many posters here did. But it fell on deaf ears.


----------



## Beebo (5 Jan 2019)

The old contaminated meat excuse!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/46768802
You do wonder why a 90 year old would bother doping.


----------



## Milzy (5 Jan 2019)

Beebo said:


> The old contaminated meat excuse!
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/46768802
> You do wonder why a 90 year old would bother doping.


To win is why he bothered. It doesn’t matter how old you are, you’ll always cheat yourself & your fans.


----------



## Adam4868 (5 Jan 2019)

Beebo said:


> The old contaminated meat excuse!
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/46768802
> You do wonder why a 90 year old would bother doping.


Just say no ! Become a vege.


----------



## ColinJ (5 Jan 2019)

Adam4868 said:


> Just say no ! Become a vege.


It wouldn't be long before the old '_contaminated nut roast_' excuse got trotted out!


----------



## Adam4868 (5 Jan 2019)

ColinJ said:


> It wouldn't be long before the old '_contaminated nut roast_' excuse got trotted out!


Those vegan rolls from Gregg's are KOM stuff !


----------



## Milzy (5 Jan 2019)

Hopefully he can redeem himself somehow like David Millar, but nobody else has every truly repented like him.


----------



## Flying_Monkey (6 Jan 2019)

Beebo said:


> The old contaminated meat excuse!
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/46768802
> You do wonder why a 90 year old would bother doping.



An inspiration to us all! You're never too old to start doping... 

More seriously, anyone who is still competing at this age is bound to be a lot more driven than the average ageing cyclist. We're told we should find people like this admirable but there's just as likely to be something a little wrong with them...


----------



## ColinJ (6 Jan 2019)

Flying_Monkey said:


> An inspiration to us all! You're never too old to start doping...
> 
> More seriously, anyone who is still competing at this age is bound to be a lot more driven than the average ageing cyclist. We're told we should find people like this admirable but there's just as likely to be something a little wrong with them...


Indeed... 

PS It's nice to see you back on CycleChat!


----------



## rich p (15 Jan 2019)

Another ex Disco kid falls...

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/brajkovic-suspended-for-10-months/


----------



## rich p (21 Jan 2019)

Darrell Impey wins the TDU...


----------



## Adam4868 (21 Jan 2019)

rich p said:


> Darrell Impey wins the TDU...


Hardly seen any of it,i read about Richie (its my year)Portes stage win.Any good ?


----------



## rich p (22 Jan 2019)

Adam4868 said:


> Hardly seen any of it,i read about Richie (its my year)Portes stage win.Any good ?


As good as ever...
I didn't see it either much but I had a family interest in that my nephew was the SD of the UniSA Australia team and their Jason Lea won the overall KOM.


----------



## Adam4868 (22 Jan 2019)

rich p said:


> As good as ever...
> I didn't see it either much but I had a family interest in that my nephew was the SD of the UniSA Australia team and their Jason Lea won the overall KOM.


Too much watching a race in scorching heat whilst sat here in my thermals !


----------



## mjr (22 Jan 2019)

Amateur racer given four-year ban after testing positive for EPO and testosterone | (link: http://fal.cn/rMRf) fal.cn/rMRf

I think it was John Stevenson who pondered how bad he was before doping if he was still only a cat 4...


----------



## rich p (7 Mar 2019)

Preidler and Denifl get short shrift from Ten Dam and Pinot.
The right response and not the usual mealy mouthed platitudes of the old days. 

_"I have not thought of anything else for three days. Anger, but also distrust, I've struggle for focus during my training rides," wrote Ten Dam. "I have been in a team with several doping sinners, but why does this really catch me at the throat? An explanation: I am furious at Preidler.

“As a road captain during the Giro d'Italia in 2017, I had to have several 'firm' conversations with him. He wanted to go home because his girlfriend had a bloody nose. He ruined the atmosphere in the team while we were busy with something beautiful and unique: the Giro win."

Ten Dam is not the only teammate of Preidler to express his anger at the situation with Groupama-FDJ’s Thibaut Pinot calling it "high-treason" in an emotional interview with L'Equipe._


----------



## mjr (7 Mar 2019)

rich p said:


> Preidler and Denifl get short shrift from Ten Dam and Pinot.


I think I'd missed https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/47460488 among other recent news.


----------



## rich p (7 Mar 2019)

mjr said:


> I think I'd missed https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/47460488 among other recent news.


More names expected too but not sure how high profile in cycling.


----------



## johnnyb47 (7 Mar 2019)

Hi and hope you're all well. 
This may be a little controversial of a subject, and i respect all differing opinions to mine that may be given, but I've just been listening to a 2 hour pod cast where Armstrong was being interviewed.
He talked candidly about his dark days of doping and all the lying and denying, and then his admission to it and the repercussions that followed. It was fascinating to listen to, and the how it affected him and his family. As much as im against his dirty tricks he pulled off i couldn't help but feel some respect towards him for now being so frank and open about what he did. He came across as deeply regretful, but at the same time, was not afraid to talk about it in an open way. If your remotely interested in this its on YouTube titled "Joe Regan experience #737 lance Armstrong "
All the best 
Johnny


----------



## Smokin Joe (7 Mar 2019)

Cheers, I'll catch that tomorrow. A nasty man to do business with, but I think I'd get on with him as a social acquaintance.


----------



## ColinJ (7 Mar 2019)

Smokin Joe said:


> Cheers, I'll catch that tomorrow. A nasty man to do business with, but *I think I'd get on with him as a social acquaintance.*


Until he decided that you had crossed him, and then you would discover that he can also be a very nasty man to be an acquaintance of ...  (_Allegedly! _)


----------



## Globalti (30 Mar 2019)

http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/junior-tour-ireland-ricardo-broxham-doping-ban/

How can you build a career on this? 32 seconds behind in the GC was our own Charlie Page from Green Jersey in Clitheroe, one of many aspiring young riders hoping to make a career out of cycling.


----------



## Slick (30 Mar 2019)

Proof, if proof were needed that it's so endemic in the sport they don't even realise they are cheating. 

*argued, successfully, he had ingested the substance inadvertently while taking a supplement to ease cramp.*


----------



## fossyant (30 Mar 2019)

Slick said:


> Proof, if proof were needed that it's so endemic in the sport they don't even realise they are cheating.
> 
> *argued, successfully, he had ingested the substance inadvertently while taking a supplement to ease cramp.*



Hah, really.


----------



## rich p (30 Mar 2019)

Welcome to the ProRace section. 
I agree that it's deplorable if it was deliberate doping.
You're be more than welcome to comment on all the racing that occurs day in, day out, rather than just when some minor doping issue happens.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (30 Mar 2019)

Slick said:


> Proof, if proof were needed that it's so endemic in the sport they don't even realise they are cheating.
> 
> *argued, successfully, he had ingested the substance inadvertently while taking a supplement to ease cramp.*



That quote is from the 2008 case, not this 18 year old. But God just race and if you are not the best train harder.


----------



## Pat "5mph" (30 Mar 2019)

Mod Note:
Merging with:
https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/doping-git-thread.164771/


----------



## Slick (30 Mar 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> That quote is from the 2008 case, not this 18 year old. But God just race and if you are not the best train harder.


Yeah, I know. I just thought it was indicative of the wider attitude when you can successfully argue that point.


----------



## User169 (5 Apr 2019)

Denise Betsema, the new star of Dutch cross has tested positive for anabolic steroids. Oldskool!

https://m.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20190405_04303904


----------



## rich p (5 Apr 2019)

DP said:


> Denise Betsema, the new star of Dutch cross has tested positive for anabolic steroids. Oldskool!
> 
> https://m.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20190405_04303904


Fake news, DP, she says she's innocent!!!!

_but apparently there is shoot on the marble. _


----------



## User169 (15 Apr 2019)

Jorlinson Pantano - EPO.


----------



## Flying_Monkey (15 Apr 2019)

DP said:


> Jorlinson Pantano - EPO.



That's a sad one, just because I liked him as a rider.


----------



## Lloss (1 May 2019)

fossyant said:


> I don't know how Astana are still going, they have had a history of doping riders.......


Not as much as SKY or INEOS


----------



## Adam4868 (1 May 2019)

Lloss said:


> Not as much as SKY or INEOS


Speculation at best.


----------



## nickyboy (1 May 2019)

DP said:


> Denise Betsema, the new star of Dutch cross has tested positive for anabolic steroids. Oldskool!
> 
> https://m.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20190405_04303904


I need to learn Dutch, it sounds so cool.....

"wat een nachtmerrie"


----------



## fossyant (1 May 2019)

Lloss said:


> Not as much as SKY or INEOS



Holy old post resurrection..... god knows how long Astana's drug issues have been going - since they were the sponsors on the Pro Teams...


----------



## Lloss (2 May 2019)

fossyant said:


> Holy old post resurrection..... god knows how long Astana's drug issues have been going - since they were the sponsors on the Pro Teams...


Astana are pretty clean compared to some others on the patch.


----------



## Supersuperleeds (13 May 2019)

Samuel Sanchez two year ban, back dated to Aug 17 by the looks of it

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/48259947


----------



## mjr (14 May 2019)

Supersuperleeds said:


> Samuel Sanchez two year ban, back dated to Aug 17 by the looks of it
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/48259947


I wonder which supplements are contaminated?


----------



## themosquitoking (14 May 2019)

mjr said:


> I wonder which supplements are contaminated?


I bet they kept looking until they found one.


----------



## Flying_Monkey (15 May 2019)

Juan Sebastien Molano (UAE Team Emirates) has been removed from the Giro by his own team because of 'unusual physiological readings' - he's Columbian and this sounds a bit like Henao's case - and they seem to be taking a similar approach to what Sky did with Henao. 

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mol...s-during-giro-ditalia-after-internal-testing/


----------



## rich p (16 May 2019)

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/petacchi-koren-durasek-bozic-named-in-aderlass-doping-ring/

Durasek and Koren supended in the Austrian Schmidt investigation. 
Retired Petacchi, no surprise really, and Bozic a DS for Bahrain Merida too.


----------



## Lloss (16 May 2019)

I notice there is no mention of Sky/Ineos perhaps they have cleaned up their act or paid vast amounts of money to Wada.It is a hotchpotch affair whichever way you look at it.


----------



## mjr (16 May 2019)

Lloss said:


> I notice there is no mention of Sky/Ineos perhaps they have cleaned up their act or paid vast amounts of money to Wada


Or they were only doing their own thing back in 2012 with jiffybags. We don't know. One day the investigation will conclude!


----------



## Crackle (16 May 2019)

Lloss said:


> I notice there is no mention of Sky/Ineos perhaps they have cleaned up their act or paid vast amounts of money to Wada.It is a hotchpotch affair whichever way you look at it.


Have you got another record you can play?


----------



## Adam4868 (16 May 2019)

Crackle said:


> Have you got another record you can play?



View: https://youtu.be/eAaQros6pBo

Get you in the mood for the Giro...


----------



## rich p (21 May 2019)

Still rife in South America but good that the UCI are able to catch the cheating bastards

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/man...nded-after-second-adverse-analytical-finding/


----------



## rich p (21 May 2019)

rich p said:


> Still rife in South America but good that the UCI are able to catch the cheating bastards
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/man...nded-after-second-adverse-analytical-finding/



We wuz robbed!

*Juan José Amador refuses to accept positive test as Manzana Postobon stick by rider*


----------



## rich p (23 May 2019)

The plot, and blood thickens, with Operation Alderlass snaring some more Slovenian and Bahrain Merida links.
Let's hope that it's only old school and not the new generation of Slovenes.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bah...zen-under-uci-investigation-for-doping-links/


----------



## Lloss (27 May 2019)

Dogtrousers said:


> UK based team "supposedly" not implicated in Austrian blood doping investigation. Something's not right. Clearly a blatant cover up. I just googled for pictures of Dave Brailsford in lederhosen and all the pictures seem to have been mysteriously censored.
> 
> The truth is out there.


Maybe the UK teams pay the UCI and WADA enough money to left alone and manipulate the press.


----------



## rich p (27 May 2019)

Lloss said:


> Maybe the UK teams pay the UCI and WADA enough money to left alone and manipulate the press.


By George, I think you may be onto something.


----------



## Adam4868 (27 May 2019)

Lloss said:


> Maybe the UK teams pay the UCI and WADA enough money to left alone and manipulate the press.


That's a interesting theory that's not been heard before.Id get on to them,you might have uncovered something there.


----------



## Adam4868 (13 Jun 2019)

Just heard this on eurosport.

View: https://twitter.com/ProCyclingStats/status/1139173736760918017?s=19


----------



## Adam4868 (13 Jun 2019)

Just heard this on eurosport.

View: https://twitter.com/ProCyclingStats/status/1139173736760918017?s=19


----------



## johnblack (13 Jun 2019)

It will be interesting to see how the disqualification came about and where the information came from. The result has always stuck out a bit, but I'm surprised that a Spanish winner of La Vuelta has been collared now.


----------



## Adam4868 (13 Jun 2019)

johnblack said:


> It will be interesting to see how the disqualification came about and where the information came from. The result has always stuck out a bit, but I'm surprised that a Spanish winner of La Vuelta has been collared now.



View: https://twitter.com/TourDeJose/status/1139176555412971520?s=19


----------



## Crackle (13 Jun 2019)

Blimey, we were all a bit agog at Cobo at the time and his miraculous form but where the hell did this come from!


----------



## Adam4868 (13 Jun 2019)

Bot of good news for Froome...first GB winner of a grand tour ?


----------



## Flying_Monkey (13 Jun 2019)

Crackle said:


> Blimey, we were all a bit agog at Cobo at the time and his miraculous form but where the hell did this come from!



I know. How was this not picked up earlier? 

I remember at the time, it seemed pretty obvious he was on something pretty powerful (relative to others in the race), and he practically vanished after this.


----------



## johnblack (13 Jun 2019)

Crackle said:


> Blimey, we were all a bit agog at Cobo at the time and his miraculous form but where the hell did this come from!


There's got to have been an ongoing investigation like the Anderlass one that has implicated him for them to be re-testing?


----------



## Crackle (13 Jun 2019)

Flying_Monkey said:


> I know. How was this not picked up earlier?
> 
> I remember at the time, it seemed pretty obvious he was on something pretty powerful (relative to others in the race), and he practically vanished after this.


It seemed no one wanted him after his GT win a bit like Horner.


----------



## Crackle (13 Jun 2019)

johnblack said:


> There's got to have been an ongoing investigation like the Anderlass one that has implicated him for them to be re-testing?


 Possibly, no details yet as far as I can see


----------



## Flying_Monkey (13 Jun 2019)

Crackle said:


> It seemed no one wanted him after his GT win a bit like Horner.



Yeah, the Vuelta has a bit of a bad rep with its 'one-off' winners... Horner's win was ridiculous, but American cycling fans won't hear of it.


----------



## roadrash (13 Jun 2019)

Crackle said:


> It seemed no one wanted him after his GT win a bit like Horner.



not surprising really, how long before horner is stripped of the win , that really was ludicrous


----------



## Dogtrousers (13 Jun 2019)

Hang on. Biopassport? I don't understand.

I thought the Biopassport was for longitudinal analysis of a bunch of biological metrics. So if something (say haematocrit) suddenly blips away from the previous base level it sets off an alarm bell.

So how can you get new data for biopassport analysis (short of using a Tardis)? It's not like re-testing an old sample. 

Or have I misunderstood as usual.


----------



## johnblack (13 Jun 2019)

Dogtrousers said:


> Hang on. Biopassport? I don't understand.
> 
> I thought the Biopassport was for longitudinal analysis of a bunch of biological metrics. So if something (say haematocrit) suddenly blips away from the previous base level it sets off an alarm bell.
> 
> ...


Yeah until more info comes out it does seem a bit strange.


----------



## Adam4868 (13 Jun 2019)

I suppose there's always the appeal process.


----------



## rich p (13 Jun 2019)

Was that the race where Ricco and his Italian domestique got nailed subsequently in the bright yellow kit?


----------



## roadrash (13 Jun 2019)

Adam Yates doesn't even try to hide the fact that hes cheating...

….


----------



## Crackle (13 Jun 2019)

A bit more on Cobo. Looks like it started as a case in 2015


----------



## Crackle (13 Jun 2019)




----------



## Dogtrousers (14 Jun 2019)

So there are retested samples and it's not just a biopassport thing? That would make sense.

Millar on the telly last night seemed to share my bafflement about how a biopassport that is unchanged since 2011 could change from OK to positive. He suggested new analysis techniques.


----------



## Crackle (14 Jun 2019)

Apparently he was notified in 2014 about an adverse finding, so this has taken some time to come out.


----------



## Dogtrousers (14 Jun 2019)

Thanks @Crackle 

I'm not starting a "Cobo is innocent" campaign btw. I'm just curious about the biopassport thing


----------



## Crackle (14 Jun 2019)

The person robbed here was Wiggins. This should have been his first GT win. Froome was there as support and only when Cobo attacked on the Angirlu was Froome let off the leash to chase. If Cobo hadn't been able to attack because he wasn't doping, Froome would have followed team orders and Wiggins would have won.


----------



## Adam4868 (14 Jun 2019)

Crackle said:


> The person robbed here was Wiggins. This should have been his first GT win. Froome was there as support and only when Cobo attacked on the Angirlu was Froome let off the leash to chase. If Cobo hadn't been able to attack because he wasn't doping, Froome would have followed team orders and Wiggins would have won.


Thats speculation at best ? Who's to Wiggins had it in him to win ? Great stage win from Froome there.

View: https://youtu.be/uT8DdEdhy0A


----------



## Dogtrousers (14 Jun 2019)

I've changed my mind. I'm going to start a Cobo is innocent campaign. It's clearly a stitch up. Biopassport? _That's what they want you to believe _


----------



## Adam4868 (27 Jun 2019)

View: https://twitter.com/sticky_bottle/status/1144317551851257857?s=19

Not like it's going to bother Aqua Blue.


----------



## DRM (15 Jul 2019)

Oh dear, I hope this isn’t true!
https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/...-aicar-reported-tour-de-france-peloton-431194


----------



## Crackle (15 Jul 2019)

DRM said:


> Oh dear, I hope this isn’t true!
> https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/...-aicar-reported-tour-de-france-peloton-431194


Without the riders knowledge is the sentence that worries me. So we just need some dodgy Directeur Sportif running a team, perhaps one with a history of doping, whose riders always seem to improve when they join and get worse when they leave.....No I can't think of one either........


----------



## DRM (17 Jul 2019)

Crackle said:


> Without the riders knowledge is the sentence that worries me. So we just need some dodgy Directeur Sportif running a team, perhaps one with a history of doping, whose riders always seem to improve when they join and get worse when they leave.....No I can't think of one either........


My thoughts too, also the bit about being neigh on undetectable


----------



## biking_fox (19 Jul 2019)

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/teams-divided-over-use-and-risks-of-ketones-at-tour-de-france/

Any thoughts over the Ketone use? It's not technically doping as they're not banned. Pure Placebo??


----------



## Dogtrousers (19 Jul 2019)

biking_fox said:


> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/teams-divided-over-use-and-risks-of-ketones-at-tour-de-france/
> 
> Any thoughts over the Ketone use? It's not technically doping as they're not banned. Pure Placebo??


I stand to be corrected but I thought the evidence for performance enhancement was anecdotal. I'd be interested in the source for _"reportedly give a 1.5 per cent performance boost and can significantly aid recovery" _

That said if over use can be harmful, and if people are over using them _hoping _for performance enhancement (and maybe getting a placebo boost), then it's a worry for rider welfare. Especially if teams are requiring/recommending that riders use them.
_
_


----------



## KneesUp (19 Jul 2019)

biking_fox said:


> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/teams-divided-over-use-and-risks-of-ketones-at-tour-de-france/
> 
> Any thoughts over the Ketone use? It's not technically doping as they're not banned. Pure Placebo??


Lance Armstrong's podcast (The Move) has some episodes sponsored by pedlars of Ketones. He says they are good ...


----------



## johnblack (19 Jul 2019)

biking_fox said:


> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/teams-divided-over-use-and-risks-of-ketones-at-tour-de-france/
> 
> Any thoughts over the Ketone use? It's not technically doping as they're not banned. Pure Placebo??


If it's not banned then it's not doping so a decision to be made by the individual if they feel it's of use. It's there to be used like any other legal supplement.


----------



## Dogtrousers (19 Jul 2019)

KneesUp said:


> Lance Armstrong's podcast (The Move) has some episodes sponsored by pedlars of Ketones. He says they are good ...


Sponsored person endorses sponsor's product ...


----------



## ColinJ (19 Jul 2019)

johnblack said:


> If it's not banned then it's not doping so a decision to be made by the individual if they feel it's of use. It's there to be used like any other legal supplement.


I think a good test is if the team feel happy to talk about what they are doing.

I never heard any team say "_Yeah, we dose our riders with as much Tramadol as we can. They can't feel any pain so they can do what they otherwise wouldn't be able to do. No problem, it isn't banned_" so that suggests that they realised it was dodgy, even when legal. (It was finally banned in March this year, but in 2017 4.4% of all doping tests showed the presence of it.)


----------



## rich p (2 Aug 2019)

Davide Appolonio. formerly of Sky, amongst others , has just one S1 of Volta a Portugal Santander...

https://www.procyclingstats.com/rider/davide-appollonio

His first race back after a 4 year epo doping suspension.
Not dodgy at all.


----------



## rich p (20 Aug 2019)

Floyd Landis is a nobhead. He may be hard done by having to change the team name at the T of Utah but I honestly don't care.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/floyd-landis-tour-of-utah-demand-that-team-change-name-was-personal/

_"I was back in Utah in 2009, I think, and I stayed with Greg Miller and his family," Landis said. "From what I understand he's told people, 'Floyd looked me in the eye and told me he didn't dope.' So maybe he's still bitter about that. But if that's the type of thing that gets you worked up, maybe cycling isn't the sport for you."
_
If you're a proven liar, computer hacker, cheating bastard, taker of public money under false pretences...

...then maybe cycling isn't the sport for you. farking hypocrite.


----------



## fossyant (20 Aug 2019)

How the heck in Floyd still in the sport to start with ?


----------



## mjr (20 Aug 2019)

fossyant said:


> How the heck in Floyd still in the sport to start with ?


Served his ban and no "fit and proper person" test on team ownership when granting licences, I think.


----------



## Adam4868 (20 Aug 2019)

mjr said:


> Served his ban and no "fit and proper person" test on team ownership when granting licences, I think.


Owns a cannabis farm aswell, which allways helps with the freebies.


----------



## Adam4868 (24 Aug 2019)

Another banned.
https://www.uci.org/press-release/uci-statement-on-alessandro-petacchi


----------



## ColinJ (24 Aug 2019)

Adam4868 said:


> Another banned.
> https://www.uci.org/press-release/uci-statement-on-alessandro-petacchi


He has already retired - _twice _- so that is a case of shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted! 

Mind you, he has now lost his commentator job according to Wikipedia.


----------



## Adam4868 (24 Aug 2019)

ColinJ said:


> He has already retired - _twice _- so that is a case of shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted!
> 
> Mind you, he has now lost his commentator job according to Wikipedia.


And any credibility he had


----------



## mjr (24 Aug 2019)

ColinJ said:


> He has already retired - _twice _- so that is a case of shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted!
> 
> Mind you, he has now lost his commentator job according to Wikipedia.


Was he still making any appearance money from UCIWT Gran Fondos and the like? Might as well stop that.

I see he quit (so he wasn't questioned by other reporters at the Giro?) rather than RAI actually fire him. RAI Sport's boss reportedly still backed him. http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/pet...uci-accuse-him-of-potential-doping-violation/

Are RAI part of the problem, or is it right they wait for a ruling?


----------



## Adam4868 (24 Aug 2019)

mjr said:


> Was he still making any appearance money from UCIWT Gran Fondos and the like? Might as well stop that.
> 
> I see he quit (so he wasn't questioned by other reporters at the Giro?) rather than RAI actually fire him. RAI Sport's boss reportedly still backed him. http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/pet...uci-accuse-him-of-potential-doping-violation/
> 
> Are RAI part of the problem, or is it right they wait for a ruling?


Innocent till proven guilty or feck it he's good for ratings ?


----------



## Dogtrousers (24 Aug 2019)

fossyant said:


> How the heck in Floyd still in the sport to start with ?


Of that generation of dopers Landis is by far the most entertaining. 

He bonkers.


----------



## rich p (20 Sep 2019)

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/marion-sicot-says-menstrual-cycle-could-have-sparked-epo-positive/

A link, once or twice link removed, here to Juilian Alaphilippe. That'll provide some rocket fuel to the Clinic


----------



## Adam4868 (20 Sep 2019)

rich p said:


> https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/marion-sicot-says-menstrual-cycle-could-have-sparked-epo-positive/
> 
> A link, once or twice link removed, here to Juilian Alaphilippe. That'll provide some rocket fuel to the Clinic


Saw that myself ! 

View: https://twitter.com/inrng/status/1174907303457255424?s=19


----------



## User169 (6 Oct 2019)

And now we have virtual doping. Bit of a tortuous read this one, but Cameron Jeffers who won the British eRacing Champs earlier this year has been stripped of his title.

https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2019/10...s-zwift-championship-winner-for-cheating.html

He didn't do anything wrong in the race itself, but falsely built up ride time in Zwift to obtain the bike he used in the race. It's potentially a bit odd given that Zwift gave the bike to some racers without them having "earned" it.

What I thought was interesting is that he gets a 6 month ban from racing which covers real world racing.


----------



## Slick (6 Oct 2019)

DP said:


> And now we have virtual doping. Bit of a tortuous read this one, but Cameron Jeffers who won the British eRacing Champs earlier this year has been stripped of his title.
> 
> https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2019/10...s-zwift-championship-winner-for-cheating.html
> 
> ...


Got its own thread here. 

https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/e-sports-cheating.253906/


----------



## User169 (6 Oct 2019)

Slick said:


> Got its own thread here.
> 
> https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/e-sports-cheating.253906/


 
Oops. Apologies. Didn't see that!


----------



## Adam4868 (10 Oct 2019)

View: https://twitter.com/inrng/status/1181938681155903489?s=19


----------



## mjr (15 Oct 2019)

Cycling podcast (Moore, Birnie and Friebe) 168 covers the demise of Mapei due to doping 15 years ago.


----------



## BalkanExpress (16 Oct 2019)

mjr said:


> Cycling podcast (Moore, Birnie and Friebe) 168 covers the demise of Mapei due to doping 15 years ago.


What! There was doping at Mapei.

If anyone is shocked and disgusted and wants to offload their C40, I’d be happy to help in your hour of need


----------



## Stonechat (22 Oct 2019)

Raul Alcarlon suspended

possibly biological passport anomalies.

He claims it’s all lies


----------



## tommaguzzi (24 Oct 2019)

Adam4868 said:


> Saw that myself !
> 
> View: https://twitter.com/inrng/status/1174907303457255424?s=19



well thats never going to be an excuse "Rachel" McKinnon can use


----------



## User169 (25 Oct 2019)

tommaguzzi said:


> well thats never going to be an excuse "Rachel" McKinnon can use



No quotation marks needed. Very uncool.


----------



## tommaguzzi (28 Oct 2019)

no tampons needed either


----------



## Dogtrousers (29 Oct 2019)

Episode 926 of the Sky saga is about to begin. 

Freeman is up before a medical tribunal and will admit to "telling a lot of lies" and ordering the mystery testosterone. 

And all this will mean definitely probably something or other. Or maybe not. I'm not sure.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...ichard-freeman-to-admit-he-told-a-lot-of-lies

But they're called Ineos now so it doesn't matter.


----------



## Adam4868 (29 Oct 2019)

View: https://twitter.com/inrng/status/1189161497886367744?s=19


----------



## fossyant (30 Oct 2019)

Adam4868 said:


> View: https://twitter.com/inrng/status/1189161497886367744?s=19




I don't get why this should be there, unless there is some micro dosing going on. A box is about 2-4 weeks supply for someone that needs it, but applying the gel will give a small increase temporarily, but regular use shuts down any normal production ( = no advantage). The body 'adjusts'. It's not a magic bullet, and I can't see why micro dosing will do that much, but it's possibly a marginal gain.


----------



## Adam4868 (30 Oct 2019)

fossyant said:


> I don't get why this should be there, unless there is some micro dosing going on. A box is about 2-4 weeks supply for someone that needs it, but applying the gel will give a small increase temporarily, but regular use shuts down any normal production ( = no advantage). The body 'adjusts'. It's not a magic bullet, and I can't see why micro dosing will do that much, but it's possibly a marginal gain.


I wouldn't know enough about it to comment.really,other than it "sounds dodgy"


----------



## fossyant (30 Oct 2019)

Adam4868 said:


> I wouldn't know enough about it to comment.really,other than it "sounds dodgy"



It's seriously 'dodgy'. I take the stuff myself (different brand) - long story, bodged snip ! Loads of blood tests, really low T after original op and 'repair surgery'. 

It does not make you superman - low levels you feel like crap and can't breath on climbs, but once you start treatment you can't stop it as it shuts down natural production, so you have to have blood tests to keep your levels in normal range. If 'boosting' with it, it's not going to work for more than a very short time, as your body normally adjusts production. It's not going to make you faster though, or make you feel super !

For me, it's more not going 'low' as I get the sweats and feel like crap. The gel is easier to keep levels OK but long term it burns your skin - have to move application sites. Injections were not pleasant - OK with the big needle, but the bruising and muscle soreness no good. 

As for racing, the replacement stuff sticks out if tested for. Why was this stuff was on site ? Even a staff member would apply it at home in the morning, and if you miss a day, so what... doesn't matter so long as you don't keep missing it.

Very very dodgy. And for what advantage ?


----------



## Adam4868 (30 Oct 2019)

fossyant said:


> It's seriously 'dodgy'. I take the stuff myself (different brand) - long story, bodged snip ! Loads of blood tests, really low T after original op and 'repair surgery'.
> 
> It does not make you superman - low levels you feel like crap and can't breath on climbs, but once you start treatment you can't stop it as it shuts down natural production, so you have to have blood tests to keep your levels in normal range. If 'boosting' with it, it's not going to work for more than a very short time, as your body normally adjusts production. It's not going to make you faster though, or make you feel super !
> 
> ...


In pro cycling though...something tiny to average Joe is a massive boost to a pro.Feck even longer socks is a no,so I'm sure this is !


----------



## Dogtrousers (30 Oct 2019)

In his book Tyler Hamilton mentioned the use of testosterone patches as part of his doping program.


----------



## Adam4868 (30 Oct 2019)

Dogtrousers said:


> In his book Tyler Hamilton mentioned the use of testosterone patches as part of his doping program.


I once tried nicotine patches and had some weird nightmares.
Just saying.


----------



## rich p (30 Oct 2019)

Adam4868 said:


> I once tried nicotine patches and had some weird nightmares.
> Just saying.


Did you dream that you had an imaginary twin brother?


----------



## rich p (2 Nov 2019)

Bit mischievous but WGAF!

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/al...ed-in-colombia-with-suspected-food-poisoning/

Dodgy steak?


----------



## mjr (4 Nov 2019)

The Cycling Podcast discusses the UCI opening discussions with IOC pet the International Testing Agency (not allowed to be called the Independent Testing Authority) and drawing concern from the Cycling Anti Doping Foundation https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cadf-objects-to-uci-discussions-with-international-testing-agency/


----------



## Adam4868 (7 Nov 2019)

There was something on the BBC news tonight but missed it.Anyway Freemans been charged.
https://www.cyclist.co.uk/news/7354...ng-testosterone-to-improve-riders-performance


----------



## themosquitoking (7 Nov 2019)

This could go south very quickly now.


----------



## Dogtrousers (8 Nov 2019)

Cyclingnews are publishing minutely detailed analyses of this. I think they have hired a legal correspondent or something. There was an entire article about the GMC changing the wording of one of the charges "to remove the notion of motive".

This is equally dense:
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/freeman-tribunal-the-full-damning-list-of-allegations/


----------



## Adam4868 (10 Nov 2019)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/50337317
What do we reckon then,damaging to Sir Dave,Brad....? Looks like Freemans sh1tting himself what I've read so far


----------



## Beebo (10 Nov 2019)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/50343959

Shane Sutton is the scapegoat. 
Apparently he demanded testosterone for his erectile disfunction. 

Gives a new meaning to the phrase, Arise Sir Bradley.


----------



## rich p (10 Nov 2019)

The thing is that he ordered it for Shane Sutton and his limpness or he ordered it for administering to an athlete.
Either Sutton is lying in denying it was for him (quite possible as I suspect he's a bit easy to dislike)...
...or it was for a rider or riders.
Given that Freeman has admitted most of the charges and is likely to be struck off either way, I'm not sure why he'd lie about it...


----------



## Adam4868 (10 Nov 2019)

rich p said:


> The thing is that he ordered it for Shane Sutton and his limpness or he ordered it for administering to an athlete.
> Either Sutton is lying in denying it was for him (quite possible as I suspect he's a bit easy to dislike)...
> ...or it was for a rider or riders.
> Given that Freeman has admitted most of the charges and is likely to be struck off either way, I'm not sure why he'd lie about it...


Unless big bad Shane really did bully him.Looks like he's trying to shift a bit of blame ?


----------



## Adam4868 (10 Nov 2019)

This makes me either think it's so bizzare it's true or I need to try some ?

View: https://twitter.com/offtheball/status/1193557551591362561?s=19


----------



## Dave Davenport (10 Nov 2019)

I did think 'why would you not just buy some Viagra?'


----------



## Adam4868 (10 Nov 2019)

Dave Davenport said:


> I did think 'why would you not just buy some Viagra?'


This is the real deal Dave not your average over the counter wham bam...saying that I wouldn't like to hop on a bike after one of them patches 😁


----------



## Adam4868 (10 Nov 2019)

Dogtrousers said:


> Shane needed some testosterone to give to an unnamed rider as a PED, (hoping that the side effect of raggedy sideburns would not give the game away). The other sky doctors like Geert Lienders were all too pure and high minded, so Shane picked on weedy Freeman.
> 
> Shane knew what he was doing because if Freeman ever spilled the beans he, Shane, would just exhibit his basketball sized plums in open court and Freeman would be instantly discredited.
> 
> That's my interpretation anyway.


Your round or mine 😂


----------



## ColinJ (10 Nov 2019)

"_A limp excuse.._" - ha ha, that's good!


----------



## Adam4868 (11 Nov 2019)

Pretty damning really,I guess there hoping he'll take all the heat ? 

View: https://twitter.com/ben_rumsby/status/1192484310634450947?s=19


----------



## rich p (11 Nov 2019)

Chris Horner eat your heart out. 
Oscar's still going and has only been busted twice

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/oscar-sevilla-renews-with-medellin/


----------



## Adam4868 (12 Nov 2019)

Latest..
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/50387501


----------



## Beebo (12 Nov 2019)

Adam4868 said:


> Latest..
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/50387501


So will we get to hear names in court?
If Freeman claims that Sutton is a doper he must know who they were?
The British media are very quiet on this, it could explode in the next few days.


----------



## roadrash (12 Nov 2019)

freeman claims Sutton is a doper himself, unsure what you mean by he must know who they were?


----------



## Adam4868 (12 Nov 2019)

Beebo said:


> So will we get to hear names in court?
> If Freeman claims that Sutton is a doper he must know who they were?
> The British media are very quiet on this, it could explode in the next few days.





roadrash said:


> freeman claims Sutton is a doper himself, unsure what you mean by he must know who they were?


That's the question there...did the never ending erection stop with Shane or did he share that magic potion.
Sorry ! Is he going to spill the beans or take the rap ?


----------



## Beebo (12 Nov 2019)

roadrash said:


> freeman claims Sutton is a doper himself, unsure what you mean by he must know who they were?


Oh I assumed that The allegation was that Sutton was doping other riders.


----------



## Beebo (12 Nov 2019)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/50387501

Sutton comes out punching. 

I'm going to leave the hearing now, I don't need to be dragged through this," said Sutton.

"I'm going to go back to my little hole in Spain, enjoy my retirement, sleep at night knowing full well I didn't order any [testosterone] patches.

"The person lying to you is behind the screen, hopefully one day he will come clean and tell you why. He's a good bloke, a good friend, I've no argument with him.

"I'm happy with what I achieved in my career, I wish Richard Freeman all the best going forward, no one is better bedside than him.

"Dr Freeman went through a messy divorce, he turned up to work drunk on several occasions - he was like the Scarlet Pimpernel.

"I covered for him when we couldn't get hold of him.

"I'm not lying, I've told the truth, don't ask me any more questions.

"I'm not getting dragged by this mindless little individual [O'Rourke] living in her sad world, who is defending someone who has admitted to telling a million lies to you and the rest of the world but can't come out and tell the truth.

"He is hiding behind a screen, which is spineless, Richard, you're a spineless individual."


----------



## Adam4868 (12 Nov 2019)

Like a fecking episode of Dallas ! All we need now is Sir Dave to turn up with erectile disfunction


----------



## Adam4868 (12 Nov 2019)

I guess the burning question is are either going to give up the rider who the patches were meant for ?


----------



## Slick (12 Nov 2019)

Adam4868 said:


> I guess the burning question is are either going to give up the rider who the patches were meant for ?


Not a chance. What about the unnamed witness who saw Shane self injecting when he was still a rider?


----------



## rich p (12 Nov 2019)

What a cock up


----------



## roadrash (12 Nov 2019)

Beebo said:


> Oh I assumed that The allegation was that Sutton was doping other riders.



you may well be right, maybe I read it wrong


----------



## Adam4868 (12 Nov 2019)

View: https://twitter.com/roadcc/status/1194332030068125704?s=19

Poor old Shane,he allways seemed such a nice man...#keysersoze


----------



## roadrash (12 Nov 2019)

keep yer pecker up shane


----------



## Pale Rider (13 Nov 2019)

Freeman might be hiding behind a screen at the hearing, but it looks like he briefed an attack dog in Mary O'Rourke QC.

It would have been good theatre to see her and Sutton going at each other.

Sutton always struck me as a bit of a pig, but I suspect he found Ms O'Rourke could be just as nasty as him.


----------



## mjr (13 Nov 2019)

Adam4868 said:


> Like a fecking episode of Dallas ! All we need now is Sir Dave to turn up with erectile disfunction


Who's going to be in the shower when we all go back to 2012 and Froome wins the Tour?


----------



## Adam4868 (13 Nov 2019)

mjr said:


> Who's going to be in the shower when we all go back to 2012 and Froome wins the Tour?


Lol I can't see this going past Freeman,he's going to take all the flak I think.


----------



## Dogtrousers (13 Nov 2019)

mjr said:


> Who's going to be in the shower when we all go back to 2012 and Froome wins the Tour?


Or even Nibali. He was first non-Sky rider.


----------



## Adam4868 (13 Nov 2019)

Too much info Shane...


----------



## lane (13 Nov 2019)

Why is Freeman behind a screen . Ludicrous. Should only be if you need anonymity which he clearly does not because we know who he is. I have a bit of respect of Sutton's comments at the hearing.


----------



## Adam4868 (13 Nov 2019)

lane said:


> Why is Freeman behind a screen . Ludicrous. Should only be if you need anonymity which he clearly does not because we know who he is. I have a bit of respect of Sutton's comments at the hearing.


Said he's nervous ?


----------



## roadrash (13 Nov 2019)

I bet he is sh!tting himself , nevermind nervous


----------



## Pale Rider (13 Nov 2019)

Adam4868 said:


> Said he's nervous ?



Pretty much.

He's been pulling a long term stress sickie, so apart from anything else it's probably good tactics to maintain that by saying he can only face the hearing from behind a screen.


----------



## mjr (13 Nov 2019)

Pale Rider said:


> Pretty much.
> 
> He's been pulling a long term stress sickie, so apart from anything else it's probably good tactics to maintain that by saying he can only face the hearing from behind a screen.


Would you choose to look at Sutton if you had a choice?


----------



## Adam4868 (13 Nov 2019)

mjr said:


> Would you choose to look at Sutton if you had a choice?


With or without patch on ?


----------



## Dogtrousers (13 Nov 2019)

Kinda funny that Sutton responds to accusations of (among other things) being a bully by shouting "You're spineless! Man up and look me in the eye! Come out from behind that screen!", and calling a QC a "mindless little individual". Oooops.

I wonder if may now have served his purpose now as far as the defence is concerned. Although there may still be that Daily Mail affidavit to surface which could prove interesting.

This is brilliant theatre but I've completely lost track of its overall significance.


----------



## Adam4868 (13 Nov 2019)

Dogtrousers said:


> Kinda funny that Sutton responds to accusations of (among other things) being a bully by shouting "You're spineless! come out from behind that screen!", and calling a QC a "mindless little individual". Ooops.
> 
> I wonder if may now have served his purpose now as far as the defence is concerned. Although there may still be that Daily Mail affidavit to surface which could prove interesting.
> 
> This is brilliant theatre but I've completely lost track of its overall significance.


I think it's more about actually finding out which riders had the "stiffy patches"


----------



## Dogtrousers (13 Nov 2019)

Adam4868 said:


> I think it's more about actually finding out which riders had the "stiffy patches"


Being serious for a minute (and it's quite difficult) what is actually going on. The defence is trying to demonstrate that Sutton is a bully and that their client was bullied into getting the patches by him. I think I understand that.

Are they then implying that - if there was any doping going on it wasn't their client's fault. Evil shouty Shane told Freeman that he had problems in his pants and needed some T, and that if he (Freeman) didn't get it he (Shane) would kick his (Freeman's) ass. Frightened Freeman got the T, handed it to evil shouty Shane, and is guilty only of being a bit of a wet. If there was any doping going on it was evil Shane? 

Is that the general thrust of the defence, or have I got it wrong?


----------



## Adam4868 (13 Nov 2019)

Dogtrousers said:


> Being serious for a minute (and it's quite difficult) what is actually going on. The defence is trying to demonstrate that Sutton is a bully and that their client was bullied into getting the patches by him. I think I understand that.
> 
> Are they then implying that - if there was any doping going on it wasn't their client's fault. Evil shouty Shane told Freeman that he had problems in his pants and needed some T, and that if he (Freeman) didn't get it he (Shane) would kick his (Freeman's) ass. Frightened Freeman got the T, handed it to evil shouty Shane, and is guilty only of being a bit of a wet. If there was any doping going on it was evil Shane?
> 
> Is that the general thrust of the defence, or have I got it wrong?


I know what you mean,Freeman getting some kudos because he didn't mean it they made me.
Push blame on Sutton as he's a proven bully ? So some have said...
Sutton's apparently doped before...
Who did the orders come from ? Big Dave in the death star ? Sorry I'll try and be serious ! 
The big Question though is who had the magic patch,which rider if any had it ?


----------



## Beebo (13 Nov 2019)

Dogtrousers said:


> Being serious for a minute (and it's quite difficult) what is actually going on. The defence is trying to demonstrate that Sutton is a bully and that their client was bullied into getting the patches by him. I think I understand that.
> 
> Are they then implying that - if there was any doping going on it wasn't their client's fault. Evil shouty Shane told Freeman that he had problems in his pants and needed some T, and that if he (Freeman) didn't get it he (Shane) would kick his (Freeman's) ass. Frightened Freeman got the T, handed it to evil shouty Shane, and is guilty only of being a bit of a wet. If there was any doping going on it was evil Shane?
> 
> Is that the general thrust of the defence, or have I got it wrong?



My understanding is that it is a medical tribunal to review Freeman’s suitability to practise. 
They aren’t looking into any actual doping issues. 
I’m not even certain that Sutton was obliged to attend.


----------



## Adam4868 (13 Nov 2019)

Beebo said:


> My understanding is that it is a medical tribunal to review Freeman’s suitability to practise.
> They aren’t looking into any actual doping issues.
> I’m not even certain that Sutton was obliged to attend.


Thanks,didn't know that.


----------



## mjr (13 Nov 2019)

Beebo said:


> My understanding is that it is a medical tribunal to review Freeman’s suitability to practise.
> They aren’t looking into any actual doping issues.
> I’m not even certain that Sutton was obliged to attend.


Indeed. As I understand it, the big question is whether Freeman believed the patch was for Sutton, whether he believed it was for athletes or whether it was all lies. I'm not sure Sutton's blow-up helps him at all.


----------



## Dogtrousers (13 Nov 2019)

mjr said:


> Indeed. As I understand it, the big question is whether Freeman believed the patch was for Sutton, whether he believed it was for athletes or whether it was all lies. I'm not sure Sutton's blow-up helps him at all.


It seems it all turns around whether he ordered the patches "knowing or believing" that they were to be used for doping - which would be naughty behaviour for a doctor. Actually which riders would eventually be in receipt of the T isn't important - just whether or not it was being procured for doping purposes.

Freeman says he believed the T was to help Sutton's gentleman's problems. Sutton denies that. That much is moderately clear.

From here on it all becomes really incomprehensible. I _think_ the defence is trying to destroy Sutton's credibility, and suggest that if there was any doping going on their client was completely unaware of it - he was just trying to help out a pal with an embarrassing complaint/he was bullied into it. Sutton has obligingly confirmed the bullying part. That's the best I can do but it still doesn't make complete sense.

Meanwhile we all _know_ it was part of a PED program. You'd have to be daft to think otherwise. Sutton's todger is a red herring. The details of that program and the ultimate recipients are unlikely to come out unless someone does a Landis and spills the beans/sings like a canary/dishes the dirt.


----------



## mjr (13 Nov 2019)

Dogtrousers said:


> Sutton's todger is a red herring. [...]









Ladies and Gentleman, herring-man has left the building! https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/...s-medical-tribunal-dramatic-appearance-442374

Given Shane said "My wife wants to come here and testify you’re a liar.” then why don't they call her?


----------



## Pale Rider (13 Nov 2019)

The tribunal is quasi-judicial, but I agree no one - including Freeman - has to appear before it.

Its only biting sanction is to prevent him doctoring in future by striking him off the medical register.

The fact that Freeman is defending the allegations suggests he wants to work as a doctor in future.

I've seen cases of doctors who have sexually assaulted patients who do not turn up at their own tribunal.

That's because they accept the inevitability of being struck off.


----------



## Adam4868 (13 Nov 2019)

The burning question here though is did team sky know ? If so it sort of damages them and their zero policy drugs policy's.
Sutton was never convicted of doping was he ?


----------



## Slick (13 Nov 2019)

Adam4868 said:


> The burning question here though is did team sky know ? If so it sort of damages them and their zero policy drugs policy's.
> Sutton was never convicted of doping was he ?


There is no way sky didn't know, unbelievably the whole thing stinks and eventually it's going to come out just how rotten the whole thing obviously was. 

Obviously just an opinion, and whilst some will say, well yeah, obviously. I gave them the benefit of the doubt for so long but now it's all unravelling and individuals will eventually spill it to protect their own pathetic skin.


----------



## lane (14 Nov 2019)

Beebo said:


> My understanding is that it is a medical tribunal to review Freeman’s suitability to practise.
> They aren’t looking into any actual doping issues.
> I’m not even certain that Sutton was obliged to attend.



Wonder if his wife will feel obliged to attend now though - to "clarify matters"


----------



## Adam4868 (14 Nov 2019)

Gets more bizzare as it goes on...I thought this was more about Freeman and his knowledge of it ? Seems like his solicitor is trying to shift some of the blame ?

View: https://twitter.com/seaningle/status/1194964210947633153?s=19


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## mjr (14 Nov 2019)

It might be a distraction attempt. If the next defence witness is Chewbacca, that'll confirm it.


----------



## Adam4868 (14 Nov 2019)

mjr said:


> It might be a distraction attempt. If the next defence witness is Chewbacca, that'll confirm it.


Why ? Known erectile problems ?


----------



## dodgy (14 Nov 2019)

I think they're trying to portray Sutton as a bully in a position of authority. Perhaps the defence will be Freeman felt forced by someone he feared.
Fortunately, Sutton seems to have complied with that portrayal so far.


----------



## mjr (14 Nov 2019)

dodgy said:


> I think they're trying to portray Sutton as a bully in a position of authority. Perhaps the defence will be Freeman felt forced by someone he feared.
> Fortunately, Sutton seems to have complied with that portrayal so far.


I don't see how that would be a defence. If anything, it would undermine the defence that he truly believed the patches were for Sutton.


----------



## dodgy (14 Nov 2019)

No matter who they were for, he (Freeman) went around established protocol for supplying and recording prescriptions, which is pretty serious for a Doctor. A mitigating explanation is that he was bullied by a person in authority.


----------



## Adam4868 (14 Nov 2019)

mjr said:


> I don't see how that would be a defence. If anything, it would undermine the defence that he truly believed the patches were for Sutton.


Or...As far as Freeman is concerned it's going to be hard to get a "not guilty" as far as himself goes.So try and shift some blame ?


----------



## ColinJ (14 Nov 2019)

I reckon that Freeman has to be struck off even for what he has already admitted! 

Perhaps he is now just getting his own back for bullying that he suffered in the past?

As for proving what the testosterone was for... I can't see that being proved one way or the other.


----------



## Adam4868 (14 Nov 2019)

ColinJ said:


> I reckon that Freeman has to be struck off even for what he has already admitted!
> 
> Perhaps he is now just getting his own back for bullying that he suffered in the past?
> 
> As for proving what the testosterone was for... I can't see that being proved one way or the other.


That's what i was thinking,only slight correction Col "alleged bullying"


----------



## ColinJ (14 Nov 2019)

Adam4868 said:


> That's what i was thinking,only slight correction Col "alleged bullying"


Legally, yes - "alleged", but you only have to see Sutton ranting for a few seconds (or read some of his public past comments) to realise that he wouldn't be someone who you'd want to have a disagreement with!


----------



## lane (14 Nov 2019)

I would have thought the main beneficeries of allegations that the T was for Sutton's erectile issues would be Team Sky / British Cycling. Sounds like Sutton is not prepared to "take one for the team" on this occasion.


----------



## Rusty Nails (14 Nov 2019)

lane said:


> Wonder if his wife will feel obliged to attend now though - to "clarify matters"



Pics, or it didn't happen.


----------



## Adam4868 (14 Nov 2019)

ColinJ said:


> Legally, yes - "alleged", but you only have to see Sutton ranting for a few seconds (or read some of his public past comments) to realise that he wouldn't be someone who you'd want to have a disagreement with!


I allways thought what a sweetie...like a cuddly Koala.Im not as judgemental as you though.


----------



## Adam4868 (14 Nov 2019)

Rusty Nails said:


> Pics, or it didn't happen.


Good luck looking for those pics !


----------



## User169 (14 Nov 2019)

Hey everyone. Just to be clear, Sutton is appearing as GMCs star witness. 

(And it’s not a trial as Jess Varnish suggested- it’s a tribunal)


----------



## lane (14 Nov 2019)

What are the GMC trying to prove with his testimony?


----------



## Beebo (15 Nov 2019)

Will this all be blamed on impotence caused by prolonged riding in the saddle? 
It could be a workable defence.


----------



## Dogtrousers (15 Nov 2019)

lane said:


> What are the GMC trying to prove with his testimony?


I think their aim was to give us all a jolly good laugh. And they succeeded admirably.


----------



## Adam4868 (15 Nov 2019)

If you cant contain your excitement any longer...
*
View: https://twitter.com/Doctor_Hutch/status/1195305012710313984?s=19*


----------



## Adam4868 (24 Nov 2019)

Following on from the Freeman case I guess...I'm not too sure I have Jim as a man of morals....
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ineos-will-leave-cycling-if-rules-were-broken-says-ratcliffe/


----------



## Slick (24 Nov 2019)

Adam4868 said:


> Following on from the Freeman case I guess...I'm not too sure I have Jim as a man of morals....
> https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ineos-will-leave-cycling-if-rules-were-broken-says-ratcliffe/


He isn't, although he will fight you to the death to convince you he is. 

Cold calculating money man, of which there is nothing.


----------



## Adam4868 (24 Nov 2019)

Slick said:


> He isn't, although he will fight you to the death to convince you he is.
> 
> Cold calculating money man, of which there is nothing.


I don't doubt it for a minute.


----------



## Dogtrousers (24 Nov 2019)

Given the length of time it takes for these things to leak out and be exposed, he's on safe ground. If faced with this he'll either be ably to say "before my time, it's all fine now" or will have moved on to other things.


----------



## Adam4868 (27 Nov 2019)

Bit of "legal doping" that might suit you @rich p ? I can think of worse tastes....

View: https://twitter.com/Cyclingnewsfeed/status/1199623584429293568?s=19


----------



## rich p (27 Nov 2019)

Adam4868 said:


> Bit of "legal doping" that might suit you @rich p ? I can think of worse tastes....
> 
> View: https://twitter.com/Cyclingnewsfeed/status/1199623584429293568?s=19



I wonder if it's available in malt whisky?


----------



## Adam4868 (27 Nov 2019)

rich p said:


> I wonder if it's available in malt whisky?


Only for the seniors...think saga hols on a bike 😁


----------



## rich p (27 Nov 2019)

Adam4868 said:


> Only for the seniors...think saga hols on a bike 😁


I haven't even got a bus pass


----------



## Adam4868 (27 Nov 2019)

rich p said:


> I haven't even got a bus pass


You "scrub up well".....don't tell me you even get asked for I.D ?


----------



## ColinJ (27 Nov 2019)

rich p said:


> I haven't even got a bus pass


Yeah, they '_stole_' mine too - another 2 years to go before I get it now!


----------



## rich p (28 Nov 2019)

Operation Alderlass rides again.
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uc...7-in-light-of-operation-aderlass-information/
I wonder if anyone is a bit worried


----------



## Adam4868 (28 Nov 2019)

rich p said:


> Operation Alderlass rides again.
> https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uc...7-in-light-of-operation-aderlass-information/
> I wonder if anyone is a bit worried


Wonder why now ? Do you think someone,a rider has spilled some beans on someone/something ?


----------



## rich p (28 Nov 2019)

Adam4868 said:


> Wonder why now ? Do you think someone,a rider has spilled some beans on someone/something ?


It's a bit vague, isn't it? 
What are they testing for that they didn't before? Or are they testing riders that have been fingered...
...so to speak.


----------



## Adam4868 (28 Nov 2019)

rich p said:


> It's a bit vague, isn't it?
> What are they testing for that they didn't before? Or are they testing riders that have been fingered...
> ...so to speak.


I had a Columbo moment thinking someone has told them how they manage to cheat the system....how they manipulate it ? 
Must stop drinking so early....what do I know !


----------



## rich p (28 Nov 2019)

Adam4868 said:


> I had a Columbo moment thinking someone has told them how they manage to cheat the system....how they manipulate it ?
> Must stop drinking so early....what do I know !


"Er, just one more thing, Senor Valverde..."


----------



## Adam4868 (28 Nov 2019)

rich p said:


> "Er, just one more thing, Senor Valverde..."


Lol...he'll be long gone by the time we get to the results.


----------



## rich p (10 Dec 2019)

The Freeman and Sutton show is back on the road.

You couldn't make this shite up!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/50725914

I wonder who the coach is...if it's true

_O'Rourke alleged that Sutton was taking part in the Tour of Ireland when he was handed a can of urine by a current British Cycling coach.
She also listed a number of allegations concerning Sutton, including:_

_That he received drugs in a McDonald's toilet in Edinburgh._
_That he had confessed to Dr Freeman that he had used amphetamines while he was a rider._


----------



## roadrash (10 Dec 2019)

they make a primary school playground seem grown up


----------



## Adam4868 (10 Dec 2019)

rich p said:


> O'Rourke alleged that Sutton was taking part in the Tour of Ireland when he was handed a can of urine by a current British Cycling coach


Strange that's what I get at my in laws in Ireland at Christmas..I thought they liked me.


----------



## Beebo (11 Dec 2019)

Come on. 
We’ve all handed a mate a can of urine. And who amongst us hasn’t got drugs in a McDonalds’ toilet. 
These are Rites of Passage for young men. This isn’t news.


----------



## Adam4868 (11 Dec 2019)

Beebo said:


> Come on.
> We’ve all handed a mate a can of urine. And who amongst us hasn’t got drugs in a McDonalds’ toilet.
> These are Rites of Passage for young men. This isn’t news.


Speak for yourself...I draw the line at going in McDonald's


----------



## Dogtrousers (11 Dec 2019)

This would make a great musical.


----------



## roadrash (11 Dec 2019)

with this theme tune...

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rY0WxgSXdEE


----------



## rich p (11 Dec 2019)

Adam4868 said:


> I draw the line


Well, it was a Coke can after all...


----------



## Adam4868 (11 Dec 2019)

rich p said:


> Well, it was a Coke can after all...


Once the season starts again this will all end I promise 😁
We'll get back to taking the piss out of your predictions.


----------



## roadrash (11 Dec 2019)

predictions, I thought they was more like a stab in the dark


----------



## rich p (11 Dec 2019)

roadrash said:


> predictions, I thought they was more like a stab in the dark


I'm asking Santa for a new pin this Christmas


----------



## Dogtrousers (17 Dec 2019)

The Freeman tribunal will run and run ... to October 2020!

View: https://twitter.com/danroan/status/1206954985910611969?s=19


----------



## Adam4868 (17 Dec 2019)

cyberknight said:


> I have come to the realization that no matter how hard i have tried all my life to better myself for over30 years by working hard, doing courses etc i have never got any further, stuck in a dead end job that i cant leave as i have to support the family .Looking forward i can only see me continuing till they either close the place or i get shown the door when i cant do the job anymore due to getting older and its a young mans job .
> I have looked my future with glum realization that this is it


Dragging it out as long as they can..will probally turn up in a oversized suit with a zimmerframe pleading poor health....


----------



## Adam4868 (17 Dec 2019)

Where there's a will,there's a way...
https://www.cyclingnews.com/feature...hanging-nationality-after-wada-ban-on-russia/


----------



## Adam4868 (2 Feb 2020)

Bit of hearsay so far....

View: https://twitter.com/inrng/status/1224051187319812097?s=19


----------



## Stonechat (2 Feb 2020)

Adam4868 said:


> Bit of hearsay so far....
> 
> View: https://twitter.com/inrng/status/1224051187319812097?s=19



Just saw the same thing on Road.cc https://road.cc/content/news/270833...H8-mAz1Ovza6NY3T6InDpViSdUSJYyGSERywIlD265nog


----------



## rich p (3 Feb 2020)

Team Evil strikes again. 
I've had my suspicions about Lutsenko (and Vino) but I'd be disappointed if Fuglsang was guilty.
His name means birdsong, I don't suppose you know that. Maybe he'll sing like a canary...

In other Carlton related bollox...Primoz Roglic used to be a ski jumper.


----------



## Adam4868 (3 Feb 2020)

rich p said:


> Team Evil strikes again.
> I've had my suspicions about Lutsenko (and Vino) but I'd be disappointed if Fuglsang was guilty.
> His name means birdsong, I don't suppose you know that. Maybe he'll sing like a canary...
> 
> In other Carlton related bollox...Primoz Roglic used to be a ski jumper.


It makes you wonder if you were going to dope why use Ferrari ? In fact as a pro cyclist you wouldnt even be in the same vicinity as him !
Then again he's good at what he does.
Innocent until proven guilty and all that..


----------



## rich p (3 Feb 2020)

Adam4868 said:


> Then again he's good at what he does


This I suppose but I know what you mean. 
Motor pacing behind Ferrari seems particularly public and stupid.


----------



## roadrash (3 Feb 2020)

Anyone who has connection with ferrari will automatically fall under suspicion.
Thanks @rich p for the trivia on fuglsang and roglic i hadn't heard it mentioned  in the last 5 minutes


----------



## Adam4868 (3 Feb 2020)

rich p said:


> Team Evil strikes again.
> I've had my suspicions about Lutsenko (and Vino) but I'd be disappointed if Fuglsang was guilty.
> His name means birdsong, I don't suppose you know that. Maybe he'll sing like a canary...
> 
> In other Carlton related bollox...Primoz Roglic used to be a ski jumper.


Phew...

View: https://twitter.com/ammattipyoraily/status/1224408465700986881?s=19


----------



## roadrash (4 Feb 2020)

that's cleared that up then


----------



## johnblack (4 Feb 2020)

His denial is a very strangely worded thing.

The Secret Pro has written about it on Cycling Tips but I'm not a member so don't have access to it yet.


----------



## ColinJ (4 Feb 2020)

johnblack said:


> His denial is a very strangely worded thing.
> 
> The Secret Pro has written about it on Cycling Tips but *I'm not a member so don't have access to it yet*.


Neither am I, but I can read it!


----------



## ColinJ (4 Feb 2020)

[Oops, wrong thread!]


----------



## roadrash (4 Feb 2020)

ColinJ said:


> Neither am I, but I can read it!



So can I , though it was a waste of time nowt but rumours of folk saying they have seen ferrari and fuglsang together.


----------



## johnblack (4 Feb 2020)

ColinJ said:


> Neither am I, but I can read it!


Wasn't there earlier.


----------



## Dogtrousers (4 Feb 2020)

Tis there now https://cyclingtips.com/2020/02/the-secret-pro-never-buy-a-ferrari/


> In the meantime, here are some quotes I expect to see, and how to read between the lines:
> 
> “I’ve never worked with Ferrari (the car company).”
> “I’ve never shaken hands with him (we prefer fist bumps).”
> ...


----------



## DRM (4 Feb 2020)

https://www.velonews.com/2020/02/ne...ing-controls-to-new-international-body_504404

Funny that this is reported first, then later a leaked report appears, that on the face of it seems to have no actual evidence to back up the claims that have been leaked, I find it hard to believe that anyone would be so stupid as to meet up with/ be trained by Michele Ferrari in Nice & Monaco, let alone be motor paced there by him, something stinks about this.


----------



## Adam4868 (4 Feb 2020)

It seems odd that Ferrari would be in Monaco,it's not like it's short of pro cyclists.
As for Fulgsang I thought his secret was eating more carbs...didn't work for me,must be my lack of self belief.
https://www.cyclingnews.com/features/more-carbs-and-more-self-belief-fuel-fuglsangs-2019-success/


----------



## DRM (4 Feb 2020)

Adam4868 said:


> It seems odd that Ferrari would be in Monaco,it's not like it's short of pro cyclists.
> As for Fulgsang I thought his secret was eating more carbs...didn't work for me,must be my lack of self belief.
> https://www.cyclingnews.com/features/more-carbs-and-more-self-belief-fuel-fuglsangs-2019-success/


Exactly, there is just no way you would get away with not being seen by other pro’s and the media journalists who would be sniffing around for a story anyway, surely if you were being trained by Ferrari you would do it well out of the way of prying eyes, funny as well that the grand depart is in Denmark in 2021


----------



## rich p (5 Feb 2020)

There's definitely something lost in 'translation ' and, as inner ring says, why havent CADF given the report to the UCI.
It seems like an elaborate, pointless thing to have invented but there's no evidence so far.
Ferrari never even met Armstrong in public.
Strange story.


----------



## Adam4868 (5 Feb 2020)

Show some love....

View: https://twitter.com/JohanBruyneel/status/1224812793926471680?s=19


----------



## mjr (5 Feb 2020)

Adam4868 said:


> Show some love....
> 
> View: https://twitter.com/JohanBruyneel/status/1224812793926471680?s=19



He's only got two and a half years left on his ban, hasn't he? Then he can join Riis running the team.


----------



## mjr (5 Feb 2020)

Moore and Friebe on Fuglsang in The Cycling Podcast: 14: Questions for Fuglsang and the reinvention of a Spanish institution 
View: https://audioboom.com/posts/7496373


----------



## Dogtrousers (5 Feb 2020)

mjr said:


> Moore and Friebe on Fuglsang in The Cycling Podcast: 14: Questions for Fuglsang and the *reinvention of a Spanish institution *


The Inquisition?
The Armada?
Colonisation of South America?
Having hideously inbred monarchs? (although that's not exclusively Spanish)
Civil War? (ditto)

My Spanish history is not great but the possibilities are interesting.


----------



## Adam4868 (5 Feb 2020)

Something to talk about for a day or two....oh well.

View: https://twitter.com/inrng/status/1225017220948013057?s=19


----------



## Landsurfer (5 Feb 2020)

"Davide Rebellin signs contract extension with Meridiana Kamen... at the age of 48"

Now whats he taking ???????


----------



## rich p (5 Feb 2020)

Landsurfer said:


> "Davide Rebellin signs contract extension with Meridiana Kamen... at the age of 48"
> 
> Now whats he taking ???????


Probably the same stuff he's been taking for his whole career!


----------



## mjr (5 Feb 2020)

Dogtrousers said:


> The Inquisition?
> The Armada?
> Colonisation of South America?
> Having hideously inbred monarchs? (although that's not exclusively Spanish)
> ...


Mövenpick ice cream, if I heard it right.

(My hearing is not great but it makes podcasts more interesting.)


----------



## Adam4868 (6 Feb 2020)

Really was a non story.

View: https://twitter.com/ammattipyoraily/status/1225143881752305667?s=19


----------



## mjr (6 Feb 2020)

So what does that mean in plain English? There are allegations but CADF and Sportradar couldn't back any up enough to withstand a likely court appeal?


----------



## Adam4868 (6 Feb 2020)

mjr said:


> So what does that mean in plain English? There are allegations but CADF and Sportradar couldn't back any up enough to withstand a likely court appeal?


Allegations and that's it ? Or in non legal terms rumours ?


----------



## Landsurfer (6 Feb 2020)

Adam4868 said:


> Allegations and that's it ? Or in non legal terms rumours ?


So the rider is innocent ?


----------



## Adam4868 (6 Feb 2020)

Landsurfer said:


> So the rider is innocent ?


Well as far as I can tell ? Sounded like bollox to me so far.


----------



## Landsurfer (6 Feb 2020)

Adam4868 said:


> Well as far as I can tell ? Sounded like bollox to me so far.



Weasel Words we call it in Marketing. .....


----------



## Dogtrousers (17 Feb 2020)

I don't know if I'm behind the times with this one. The link is a couple of weeks old
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uk...ctor-before-2021-statute-of-limitations-date/

Looks like UKAD need to get their skates on and charge Freeman if they don't want the statute of limitations to run out (assuming they decide that they have enough to charge him with), meaning that they may have to move before the end of the giant filibustering GMC tribunal hearing..


----------



## Adam4868 (21 Feb 2020)

Not like I know him but...

View: https://twitter.com/inrng/status/1230969321746321408?s=19


----------



## rich p (22 Feb 2020)

It's easier to forgive the older ones who doped when they were all at it, in the Armstrong era, than the young ones like Priedler, that Alderlass has exposed .


----------



## Lloss (25 Mar 2020)

I am a long time retired pro rider and most of riders are at it one way or another always have been and always will be so you either accept it or you don`t


----------



## roadrash (25 Mar 2020)

i suppose we can choose whether to accept it or not regardless of whether you are a retired pro rider or not, your statement adds nothing as it stands.


----------



## DRM (25 Mar 2020)

We all know it’s gone on since day one, and human nature being what it is always will, it’s just that now people are not as over the top to have a barnstorming performance, just a bit more discreet by pushing the rules as far as possible without actually breaking them, too much.


----------



## Adam4868 (25 Mar 2020)

Lloss said:


> I am a long time retired pro rider and most of riders are at it one way or another always have been and always will be so you either accept it or you don`t


Enjoy your retirement 🙄....for a split second I thought we had some cycling news !


----------



## rich p (26 Mar 2020)

Lloss said:


> I am a long time retired pro rider and most of riders are at it one way or another always have been and always will be so you either accept it or you don`t


Thank you so much for your unsolicited opinion. We all really appreciate the in depth knowledge and insight of an old pro...


----------



## Beebo (10 Apr 2020)

Anyone know whether random out of season testing is still going ahead. 
or is lockdown a cheats dream to get some PEDs in whilst no one is looking?


----------



## mjr (10 Apr 2020)

Beebo said:


> Anyone know whether random out of season testing is still going ahead.
> or is lockdown a cheats dream to get some PEDs in whilst no one is looking?


It was discussed on The Cycling Podcast with Moore, Birnie and Friebe. UK Anti-Doping is continuing but reduced capacity because of anti-virus measures. Other countries vary, partly due to lockdown severity varying.

Now imagine what happens if someone's caught breaking lockdown to get dope!


----------



## Dogtrousers (10 Apr 2020)

Travis Tygart has been speaking about this:
https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/us...0-threat-cheats-break-advantage-a4395076.html


----------



## mjr (26 May 2020)

The biggest ever git has been helping ESPN fill their airtime:

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMaV-e1woGc


----------



## mjr (26 May 2020)

User169 said:


> Jorlinson Pantano - EPO.


Four years ban issued last Wednesday. Reasoning to follow later. https://www.lavenir.net/cnt/dmf2020...ecope-de-quatre-ans-de-suspension-pour-dopage


----------



## SWSteve (27 May 2020)

mjr said:


> Four years ban issued last Wednesday. Reasoning to follow later. https://www.lavenir.net/cnt/dmf2020...ecope-de-quatre-ans-de-suspension-pour-dopage



Bloody hell.


----------



## mjr (30 May 2020)

2016 and 2017 Tour de France samples to be rechecked using current tests. https://www.lavenir.net/cnt/dmf2020...s-des-editions-2016-et-2017-du-tour-de-france


----------



## DRM (31 May 2020)

I wonder when the general public will get to know what the undetectable wonder drug is that's being checked for? if it's true I'll bet there's a few riders who are very worried at the moment


----------



## rich p (11 Jun 2020)

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ju...trong-bruyneel-and-team-ineos-in-new-podcast/

I wish these two self-gratification artists would shut the fark up and realise that time has moved on, they're yesterday's men and people have stopped caring what the cheating nobheads have got to say...

Aaaaah, that feels better!


----------



## Adam4868 (23 Jun 2020)

Four year ban.
https://www.uci.org/inside-uci/pres...doping-tribunal-regarding-kanstantsin-siutsou


----------



## DRM (26 Jun 2020)

Adam4868 said:


> Four year ban.
> https://www.uci.org/inside-uci/pres...doping-tribunal-regarding-kanstantsin-siutsou


Funny how the BBC sport site is making a big hoo haa about former Team Sky rider given 4 year ban, Team Sky this Team Sky that, with a cursory mention that he rode for them from 2012 to 2015, and by the way he was riding for Bahrain Merida right at the very end, crap reporting from start to finish


----------



## Adam4868 (26 Jun 2020)

DRM said:


> Funny how the BBC sport site is making a big hoo haa about former Team Sky rider given 4 year ban, Team Sky this Team Sky that, with a cursory mention that he rode for them from 2012 to 2015, and by the way he was riding for Bahrain Merida right at the very end, crap reporting from start to finish


Everyone's favourite love to hate team ? The doping didnt relate to his time at Sky did it.


----------



## DRM (27 Jun 2020)

Adam4868 said:


> Everyone's favourite love to hate team ? The doping didnt relate to his time at Sky did it.


No he wasn't there, we will never know what he did/didn't do at Sky, Why not write Bahrain Merida rider banned, doesn't get attention, the average UK reader would have no idea who or what they are, it's just click bait.
I firmly believe the British media love to build something up, only to take even more delight in publicly destroying it, and everyone involved in it, just to sell their fish & chip wrappings, in some ways I'm glad that newspapers are dying, the sooner they're gone the better


----------



## Adam4868 (13 Jul 2020)

I'm told cycling was one of the sports involved ? Not strictly illegal or doping though I guess.

View: https://twitter.com/laflammerouge16/status/1282305922770128896?s=19


----------



## mjr (13 Jul 2020)

Tom Dumoulin has recently withdrawn from MPCC because his team use ketones. https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tom-dumoulin-quits-mpcc/

Are ketones the new beetroot juice or the new EPO?


----------



## ColinJ (13 Jul 2020)

An 8 page article in the latest issue of Cycling Weekly - "_The Lion of Flanders, Johann Museeuw, tells Chris Marshall-Bell about his dominance of 1996_", while apparently forgetting (and not being reminded of) the doping practices that fuelled it...


----------



## mjr (13 Jul 2020)

ColinJ said:


> An 8 page article in the latest issue of Cycling Weekly - "_The Lion of Flanders, Johann Museeuw, tells Chris Marshall-Bell about his dominance of 1996_", while apparently forgetting (and not being reminded of) the doping practices that fuelled it...


Drugs affect your memory. That's why dopey means stupid.


----------



## ColinJ (13 Jul 2020)

mjr said:


> Drugs affect your memory. That's why dopey means stupid.


I certainly think that years of boozing affected mine!


----------



## mjr (14 Aug 2020)

80 year old track racer gets one year ban and loses five years of results for fifteen years on meds that are also PEDs: https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/usada-ban-80-year-old-racer-for-doping/


----------



## SWSteve (14 Aug 2020)

mjr said:


> 80 year old track racer gets one year ban and loses five years of results for fifteen years on meds that are also PEDs: https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/usada-ban-80-year-old-racer-for-doping/



Applying for a retroactive TUE...for 5 years of use 😂


----------



## MartinQ (21 Sep 2020)

The drugs don't work?
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/fr...-arkea-samsic-hotel-search-at-tour-de-france/


----------



## mjr (21 Sep 2020)

MartinQ said:


> The drugs don't work?
> https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/fr...-arkea-samsic-hotel-search-at-tour-de-france/


They just make it worse? "Quintana reached Paris in 17th place overall, his lowest finish in a Grand Tour since the 2012 Vuelta a España."


----------



## BalkanExpress (22 Sep 2020)

mjr said:


> They just make it worse? "Quintana reached Paris in 17th place overall, his lowest finish in a Grand Tour since the 2012 Vuelta a España."



 NoooRo

Let's see what information d reporting provides, needles and saline always look dodgy but it could be crash injury related and on the limit.


----------



## SWSteve (22 Sep 2020)

BalkanExpress said:


> NoooRo
> 
> Let's see what information d reporting provides, needles and saline always look dodgy but it could be crash injury related and on the limit.



it’s starting to get fishy. There are stories the soigneure might have been privately hired by Nairoman, and there’s a possibility someone dropped a private doctor in to replace the team doctor.

Matt Rendell is getting torn to shreds on Twitter for just reporting what he is being told. Madness, just let the guy report what he knowsvalue at her than expect him to be able to read minds


----------



## ColinJ (22 Sep 2020)

BalkanExpress said:


> Let's see what information d reporting provides, needles and saline always look dodgy but it could be crash injury related and on the limit.


I thought that needles were actually banned these days but I just looked up the rule and it is this...



UCI regulations said:


> The following are prohibited:
> ...
> Intravenous infusions and/or injections of more than a total of 100 mL per 12 hour period except for those legitimately received in the course of hospital treatments, surgical procedures or clinical diagnostic investigations


So, having needles around wouldn't be a breach of the rules, and neither would having them stuck in you, unless the substances or amounts injected broke the rules!


----------



## BalkanExpress (22 Sep 2020)

ColinJ said:


> I thought that needles were actually banned these days but I just looked up the rule and it is this...
> 
> 
> So, having needles around wouldn't be a breach of the rules, and neither would having them stuck in you, unless the substances or amounts injected broke the rules!



arkea are MPCC and so beyond the UCI rules they have their own code of conduct, which I am too lazy to look up.

Ta add another layer, the raid looks to be French law enforcement and concerns domestic legislation rather than UCI rules


----------



## cougie uk (22 Sep 2020)

I can't see anything coming of this.


----------



## Eziemnaik (8 Oct 2020)

I would pay a lot of money to see Sir Dave with Jeremy Kyle doing an Oprah's style confession
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/freeman-now-claims-he-destroyed-the-testosterone-gels-in-tribunal/


----------



## rich p (8 Oct 2020)

Eziemnaik said:


> I would pay a lot of money to see Sir Dave with Jeremy Kyle doing an Oprah's style confession
> https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/freeman-now-claims-he-destroyed-the-testosterone-gels-in-tribunal/


Freeman is an absolute car crash of deception and incompetence


----------



## SWSteve (8 Oct 2020)

Eziemnaik said:


> I would pay a lot of money to see Sir Dave with Jeremy Kyle doing an Oprah's style confession
> https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/freeman-now-claims-he-destroyed-the-testosterone-gels-in-tribunal/



I dread to think how many credit agreements he has with Curry’s based on how quick he is going through laptops


----------



## mjr (8 Oct 2020)

rich p said:


> Freeman is an absolute car crash of deception and incompetence


Yes and his latest claim not to know the WADA code makes his previous claims not to have broken it when treating Wiggins seem rather dodgy, doesn't it? It must be extremely unlikely that both are true.


----------



## roadrash (8 Oct 2020)

you can easily tell when hes lying....... his lips move


----------



## mjr (8 Oct 2020)

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...-regrets-destroying-banned-drug-tribunal-told seems to have more quotes, mentioned in the CN article.

Do we know who Sutton is alleged to have KO'd? Has this accusation been made publicly before?

I think Freeman is lost but how many will he try to take down with him to try to redeem himself and how many of those will deserve it?

Also, how was Freeman involved with the FA anti doping? He was working for Bolton 2001-9 which included their run of four consecutive top-eight finishes and two UEFA Cup runs, but did he hold any wider post?


----------



## mjr (9 Oct 2020)

Freeman accuses Steve Peters of inaccurate testimony: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...-office-worker-to-cover-tracks-tribunal-hears


----------



## Milkfloat (9 Oct 2020)

ItsSteveLovell said:


> I dread to think how many credit agreements he has with Curry’s based on how quick he is going through laptops


With the amount of money I suspect that is being passed his way to keep schtum I think he will be able to afford to pay cash.


----------



## Eziemnaik (9 Oct 2020)

Milkfloat said:


> With the amount of money I suspect that is being passed his way to keep schtum I think he will be able to afford to pay cash.


If there is indeed something behind all that smoke it will put a BIG asterix on BC success in recent years


----------



## SWSteve (9 Oct 2020)

mjr said:


> Also, how was Freeman involved with the FA anti doping? He was working for Bolton 2001-9 which included their run of four consecutive top-eight finishes and two UEFA Cup runs, but did he hold any wider post?



I think we all know there is no doping in football. Performance enhancing drugs could do the following things that would in no way benefit footballers:

Improve muscle growth
Reduce fatigue
Improve recovery
Increase fitness
Reduce body fat
Increase alertness
As footballers wouldn’t benefit from any of these, it’s easy to understand they wouldn’t dope.


----------



## mjr (9 Oct 2020)

Eziemnaik said:


> If there is indeed something behind all that smoke it will put a BIG asterix on BC success in recent years


Those Gauls really are jealous of British success, aren't they?


----------



## cyberknight (9 Oct 2020)

Always thought that most of the top flight teams have always played as close to illegal as they can get away with,the issue for me has been the perceived image some use that reminds me of " I have never tested positive" .with the lawyers that ratcliffe and co can sling at this I expect the carpet to get extremely lumpy with the amount of muck swept underneath


----------



## Eziemnaik (9 Oct 2020)

Why should they be? They live in the last free, indomitable village


----------



## mjr (9 Oct 2020)

Eziemnaik said:


> Why should they be? They live in the last free, indomitable village


Because they're an international sporting pariah and haven't been allowed to compete at the Olympics since their "medical cook" was involved in the doping scandals shown in this documentary.


----------



## mjr (12 Oct 2020)

Freeman throws more mud at Sutton and Peters, including that Sutton triggered the Wiggins anti-doping investigations as revenge! <https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...finish-me-and-team-sky-claims-richard-freeman>


----------



## matticus (12 Oct 2020)

Eziemnaik said:


> If there is indeed something behind all that smoke it will put a BIG asterix on BC success in recent years


There's some confusion here:
Asterix was the little guy, Obelix the big guy.


----------



## mjr (14 Oct 2020)

Freeman accuses Sutton of paying him off for questionable medical services with team bikes: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...ane-sutton-cleared-off-british-cycling-budget

Now, where have we heard that sort of thing before? Maybe this sort of shoot was rife in pro cycling and/or one of Freeman and Sutton has limited imagination.


----------



## Eziemnaik (14 Oct 2020)

Wheels are coming off...


----------



## Adam4868 (22 Oct 2020)

From the Giro

View: https://twitter.com/ProCyclingStats/status/1319373575065841665?s=19


----------



## rich p (22 Oct 2020)

Adam4868 said:


> From the Giro
> 
> View: https://twitter.com/ProCyclingStats/status/1319373575065841665?s=19



He should ask for his money back


----------



## Adam4868 (22 Oct 2020)

rich p said:


> He should ask for his money back


Agreed 😁

View: https://twitter.com/laflammerouge16/status/1319384616806080513?s=19


----------



## Adam4868 (24 Oct 2020)

The ongoing did he or didn't he of Salas...think he did 😁

View: https://twitter.com/Cyclingnewsfeed/status/1319893902585925632?s=19


----------



## rich p (24 Oct 2020)

Adam4868 said:


> The ongoing did he or didn't he of Salas...think he did 😁
> 
> View: https://twitter.com/Cyclingnewsfeed/status/1319893902585925632?s=19



The Spanish courts have always been useless when it comes to doping. 
Remember the Operacion Puerto fiasco


----------



## Scoosh (24 Oct 2020)

An interesting, if disturbing, article from Bicycling magazine.
Certainly agree with his observations about 'dodgy' cyclists becoming 'dodgy' cycling team bosses...


----------



## mjr (18 Nov 2020)

Dr Richard Freeman says he 'would never put a rider in serious harm's way' but that pushing the boundaries occasionally is a necessity – https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/nov/17/dr-richard-freeman-british-cycling-hearing


----------



## Adam4868 (19 Nov 2020)

Anyone else actually losing interest in this case ? Well here's a bit more 
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ju...e-was-anything-suspicious-about-chris-froome/


----------



## johnblack (19 Nov 2020)

Adam4868 said:


> Anyone else actually losing interest in this case ? Well here's a bit more
> https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ju...e-was-anything-suspicious-about-chris-froome/


Just a complete non story. Doping is a boring subject, unless it's the stories about smuggling and how insane some of the old school dopers were.


----------



## mjr (19 Nov 2020)

johnblack said:


> Just a complete non story. Doping is a boring subject, unless it's the stories about smuggling and how insane some of the old school dopers were.


I don't know. The Julich interview seems to have some new stuff, such as accusing Freeman of botching treatment of Froome's bilharzia, that I don't remember reading before. Have you?

And if Freeman did neglect Froome's health, was it because he was a dopey doctor, or because his head had fallen off from stress about Shane Sutton?

And either way, why did Sky's then "Team Psychatrist" Steve Peters not notice a key member of the team's medical staff going to bits?

There are more questions than answers...


----------



## johnblack (19 Nov 2020)

mjr said:


> I don't know. The Julich interview seems to have some new stuff, such as accusing Freeman of botching treatment of Froome's bilharzia, that I don't remember reading before. Have you?
> 
> And if Freeman did neglect Froome's health, was it because he was a dopey doctor, or because his head had fallen off from stress about Shane Sutton?
> 
> ...


It's new but such an old story, I lost interest in it a while back, but my attention span isn't great. How long has it been dragging on for!

As you say there are far more questions than answers and I can't see at the end of the process there is going to be any clear judgements, just more areas of grey, rumour and speculation.


----------



## mjr (19 Nov 2020)

johnblack said:


> It's new but such an old story, I lost interest in it a while back, but my attention span isn't great. How long has it been dragging on for!


It's a bit over four years since UKAD rolled into the BC/Sky velodrome, reportedly provoked in part by Tiernan-Locke's accusation that Freeman offered him Tramadol at the 2012 Worlds. I do wonder if someone is hoping that we all lose interest in it, but the amazing ever-deepening layering of cover-ups and accusations is keeping me interested and making me think there probably is a puddle of shoot at the bottom of the well and the question is how deep it is.



> As you say there are far more questions than answers and I can't see at the end of the process there is going to be any clear judgements, just more areas of grey, rumour and speculation.


We'll see. I think Freeman's going to need to find another career and some other former BC support staff will be tried too. The main question is whether any riders will be caught out in the end: I expect some of the anti-doping samples are still available and BC may have been pushing the envelope of legality so much that they may have burst it somewhere and either improved tests or knowing what to look for (maybe being told in exchange for leniency for someone) might reveal it - but I don't think we're going to see any winners caught and definitely no Armstrong-sized all-out cheating conspiracy revealed.


----------



## johnblack (19 Nov 2020)

I think Freeman is scarred for life, where the hell does he go from here?

As you say, the marginal gains that were part of the narrative from the start were always more than just their own pillows and rounder wheels, but like you, I have my doubts that any solid case will ever be made about riders other than those who basically failed an IQ test.


----------



## matticus (19 Nov 2020)

Do you remember when we all got excited about Trump being impeached? The hope that Wiggins and/or Froome would get found out seems similar; a lot of digging will result, but _Everyone's Favourite Villain_ will probably come out of it with Tour De France champ / POTUS on their CV.

There are so many other more interesting stories in cycle-sport, I'm not sure how people maintain interest in this one...


----------



## ColinJ (19 Nov 2020)

_*Dr Freeman tribunal: Ex-British Cycling doctor "unaware of testosterone benefits"...*_

FFS!


----------



## Adam4868 (19 Nov 2020)

The suspense is killing me 

View: https://twitter.com/Cyclingnewsfeed/status/1329510280657838083?s=19


----------



## Eziemnaik (19 Nov 2020)

In case there is anything real there it will be swept under the carpet IMO


----------



## SWSteve (19 Nov 2020)

mjr said:


> It's a bit over four years since UKAD rolled into the BC/Sky velodrome, reportedly provoked in part by Tiernan-Locke's accusation that Freeman offered him Tramadol at the 2012 Worlds. I do wonder if someone is hoping that we all lose interest in it, but the amazing ever-deepening layering of cover-ups and accusations is keeping me interested and making me think there probably is a puddle of shoot at the bottom of the well and the question is how deep it is.
> .



so JTL was doing something in 2012 which appeared in his biological passport (ban in 2014 due to this), but felt right to tip off authorities about being offered tramadol.

bit of a mess this, isn’t it.


----------



## mjr (24 Nov 2020)

Heck of a mess!

Shane Sutton kept up to date with what EPO looks like, you should never trust him and UKAD were not looking too hard, says Tony Cooke: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...p-by-uk-anti-doping-tribunal-hears-tony-cooke


----------



## Eziemnaik (24 Nov 2020)

30 sachets of testogel to treat erection...


----------



## rich p (24 Nov 2020)

mjr said:


> Heck of a mess!
> 
> Shane Sutton kept up to date with what EPO looks like, you should never trust him and UKAD were not looking too hard, says Tony Cooke: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...p-by-uk-anti-doping-tribunal-hears-tony-cooke


To be honest, I'm not sure what his point is?
What's he accusing Sutton of? What were his suspicions?

_Jackson then read Cooke part of an email he later sent to the Ukad chief executive, Andy Parkinson. “Together … Nicole and I believed [Sutton] to be a character we could never trust,” it read. “Possibly we were overly cautious. Certainly neither Nicole or myself have seen him use performance-enhancing drugs. Nor has he ever suggested to Nicole that she should. So on prima evidence he is certainly innocent and we’re being overly cautious.” _


----------



## Adam4868 (24 Nov 2020)

Innocent until proven guilty ? I don't follow it that closely but there's a lot of heresay it seems...

View: https://twitter.com/seaningle/status/1330844382686302208?s=19


----------



## ColinJ (24 Nov 2020)

Eziemnaik said:


> 30 sachets of testogel to treat erection...


Especially when Richard Freeman claimed he was unaware of testosterone's "_performance"-enhancing _benefits...


----------



## rich p (24 Nov 2020)

“You also say you felt uncomfortable that the Welsh national coach would have recognised EPO in a phial?” Jackson asked. “Mr Sutton was obviously able to recognise it according to the account given to me,” replied Cooke. 

My guess is that it said EPO on it?

Also, nobody doubts that Sutton was in and around pro cycling when doping was rife so it's not exactly surprising.
Don't know if there's a smoking gun or not but this evidence seems a bit thin to me.


----------



## mjr (24 Nov 2020)

rich p said:


> “You also say you felt uncomfortable that the Welsh national coach would have recognised EPO in a phial?” Jackson asked. “Mr Sutton was obviously able to recognise it according to the account given to me,” replied Cooke.
> 
> My guess is that it said EPO on it?


Not necessarily. It could have said Zyrop, or EPAIO and a load of Chinese script, or most likely at that time РЕПРЕТИН on a completely Cyrillic label. For some reason, doping gits have preferred to buy ones that don't have "EPO" plastered across the packaging(!)


----------



## rich p (24 Nov 2020)

mjr said:


> Not necessarily. It could have said Zyrop, or EPAIO and a load of Chinese script, or most likely at that time РЕПРЕТИН on a completely Cyrillic label. For some reason, doping gits have preferred to buy ones that don't have "EPO" plastered across the packaging(!)


Well, according to the quote, the driver recognised it as EPO. Maybe he was a Chinese driver?


----------



## mjr (24 Nov 2020)

rich p said:


> Well, according to the quote, the driver recognised it as EPO. Maybe he was a Chinese driver?


"“You also say you felt uncomfortable that the Welsh national coach would have recognised EPO in a phial?” Jackson asked. “Mr Sutton was obviously able to recognise it according to the account given to me,” replied Cooke."

What driver?


----------



## mjr (25 Nov 2020)

rich p said:


> Also, nobody doubts that Sutton was in and around pro cycling when doping was rife so it's not exactly surprising.
> Don't know if there's a smoking gun or not but this evidence seems a bit thin to me.


Sutton doubts it! He denied in Parliament being around doping in his answer to Q1098 of http://data.parliament.uk/writtenev...ee/combatting-doping-in-sport/oral/44749.html

"Have you had personal experience of being around people that were doping, of seeing doping in cycling, either as a rider or as a coach, earlier in your career?

Shane Sutton: No"

Do you see why he's not considered an unimpeachable witness?


----------



## DCLane (25 Nov 2020)

mjr said:


> Do you see why he's not considered an unimpeachable witness?



Isn't he currently somewhere where we don't have an extradition order? I'm just wondering whether he's gone there to avoid future prosecution.


----------



## mjr (25 Nov 2020)

DCLane said:


> Isn't he currently somewhere where we don't have an extradition order? I'm just wondering whether he's gone there to avoid future prosecution.


I think he mentioned Spain so I suspect we don't have an extradition agreement after the end of next month... but equally, I suspect he believes what he's shovelling, complete with all its incredible bits, inconsistencies and spin.


----------



## rich p (25 Nov 2020)

mjr said:


> ."
> 
> What driver?


This one?

View: https://twitter.com/seaningle/status/1330844382686302208?s=20


----------



## rich p (25 Nov 2020)

mjr said:


> Do you see why he's not considered an unimpeachable witness?


I never said he was. Just that this evidence is hearsay and weak.


----------



## mjr (25 Nov 2020)

rich p said:


> This one?
> 
> View: https://twitter.com/seaningle/status/1330844382686302208?s=20



Only says the driver found it, not that he recognised it. 🤷


----------



## rich p (26 Nov 2020)

mjr said:


> Only says the driver found it, not that he recognised it. 🤷


Well, someone apparently recognised it after Sutton had left the car according to that but to be honest I'm not that interested in this non-story. I'm not sure why I've let myself get sucked into a dreary discussion with a pedant


----------



## Adam4868 (26 Nov 2020)

rich p said:


> Well, someone apparently recognised it after Sutton had left the car according to that but to be honest I'm not that interested in this non-story. I'm not sure why I've let myself get sucked into a dreary discussion with a pedant


Cause the cycling season has finished.....how long is it to the first race 😁


----------



## coldash (26 Nov 2020)

I’m not placing too much faith in the testimony of many of the participants. IMO there are many old scores being settled and some memories of what happened in the late 1980s appear to be vague,completely wrong, just opinion and possibly impacted by old age (or other things).


----------



## mjr (4 Dec 2020)

Another old score being settled? Someone blew the whistle on Sutton in 2016, but the complaint was simply passed to Sutton, in a story eerily familiar to many who ever complained about a BC club: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...sutton-corruption-allegations-british-cycling


----------



## SWSteve (4 Dec 2020)

mjr said:


> Another old score being settled? Someone blew the whistle on Sutton in 2016, but the complaint was simply passed to Sutton, in a story eerily familiar to many who ever complained about a BC club: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...sutton-corruption-allegations-british-cycling



Seems legit. If you have a whistle to blow, Go to the person who you’re blowing the whistle about.


----------



## rich p (8 Dec 2020)

The unrepentant dope(r) carries on
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/davide-rebellin-set-to-continue-racing-in-2021/


----------



## SWSteve (9 Dec 2020)

rich p said:


> The unrepentant dope(r) carries on
> https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/davide-rebellin-set-to-continue-racing-in-2021/



The sponsors must be happy with his signing. Maybe it doesnt matter that he doped


----------



## rich p (9 Dec 2020)

SWSteve said:


> The sponsors must be happy with his signing. Maybe it doesnt matter that he doped


Matters to me!


----------



## Adam4868 (9 Dec 2020)

rich p said:


> Matters to me!


Well in that case it matters to me to ,😁


----------



## ColinJ (9 Dec 2020)

SWSteve said:


> The sponsors must be happy with his signing. Maybe it doesnt matter that he doped


Well at least he finally saw the error of his ways and stopped cheating.

It is very encouraging to see an undoped rider aged 49 still able to keep up with pro riders less than half his age...


----------



## SWSteve (11 Dec 2020)

rich p said:


> Matters to me!





rich p said:


> Matters to me!





ColinJ said:


> Well at least he finally saw the error of his ways and stopped cheating.
> 
> It is very encouraging to see an undoped rider aged 49 still able to keep up with pro riders less than half his age...



i agree that it’s s*** he carries on, and is only fair to be described as questionable that he has carried on, my point is that the fact no sponsors seem to have objected to his signing is pretty damning to the notion that doping doesn’t pay


----------



## rich p (12 Dec 2020)

SWSteve said:


> i agree that it’s s*** he carries on, and is only fair to be described as questionable that he has carried on, my point is that the fact no sponsors seem to have objected to his signing is pretty damning to the notion that doping doesn’t pay


And another old doper at the tender age of 44, still going and sponsored by Pablo Escobar for Team Medellin...allegedly

https://www.procyclingstats.com/rider/oscar-sevilla

Amazingly he was 12th this year in the Spanish Champs
https://www.procyclingstats.com/race/nc-spain/2020/result

Must be on more than a line of coke, surely!


----------



## Adam4868 (12 Dec 2020)

rich p said:


> And another old doper at the tender age of 44, still going and sponsored by Pablo Escobar for Team Medellin...allegedly
> 
> https://www.procyclingstats.com/rider/oscar-sevilla
> 
> ...


You been watching Narcos...I think Pablo was a much understood man.


----------



## ColinJ (12 Dec 2020)

Adam4868 said:


> You been watching Narcos...I think Pablo was a much understood man.


Is was so nice of him to blow up planes full of people give food to the poor!

(Someone actually did once suggest to me that he wasn't as bad as was made out... )


----------



## matticus (13 Dec 2020)

ColinJ said:


> Is was so nice of him to blow up planes full of people give food to the poor!
> 
> (Someone actually did once suggest to me that he wasn't as bad as was made out... )


Bit like the Kray brothers perhaps? They larved their muvva!


----------



## rich p (14 Dec 2020)

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/riccardo-ricco-handed-lifetime-doping-ban/

Ricco got nicked again. 

che fottuto idiota


----------



## bitsandbobs (14 Dec 2020)

rich p said:


> https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/riccardo-ricco-handed-lifetime-doping-ban/
> 
> Ricco got nicked again.
> 
> che fottuto idiota



Back to making ice-cream for dogs I guess.


----------



## Leaway2 (14 Dec 2020)

It's the growth hormone in the milk m'lud.


----------



## Eziemnaik (24 Dec 2020)

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/du...lass-links-as-photos-appear-in-investigation/
Whoops


----------



## Adam4868 (24 Dec 2020)

Eziemnaik said:


> https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/du...lass-links-as-photos-appear-in-investigation/
> Whoops


Guilty ! No smoke without fire 🔥


----------



## Eziemnaik (24 Dec 2020)

I am waiting for defence Contador style:
It was my Heineken that was laced with illegal substance


----------



## SWSteve (26 Dec 2020)

Eziemnaik said:


> https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/du...lass-links-as-photos-appear-in-investigation/
> Whoops


Blimey Charlie


----------



## Adam4868 (12 Jan 2021)

Jail time ! 

View: https://twitter.com/laflammerouge16/status/1349014399131000841?s=19


----------



## rich p (12 Jan 2021)

Riccardo Ricco - the farking doping idiot that keeps on giving. After injecting himself with anything and everything for years, including some self-administered tainted blood'''
...he is refusing the Covid vaccine. Twattio!

https://cyclingtips.com/2021/01/riccardo-ricco-doesnt-want-to-be-injected-with-who-knows-what/


----------



## ColinJ (12 Jan 2021)

rich p said:


> Riccardo Ricco - the farking doping idiot that keeps on giving. After injecting himself with anything and everything for years, including some self-administered tainted blood'''
> ...he is refusing the Covid vaccine. Twattio!
> 
> https://cyclingtips.com/2021/01/riccardo-ricco-doesnt-want-to-be-injected-with-who-knows-what/


He read on social media that the vaccine has had an IQ-booster added to it...

He is worried that he might end up thinking logically and talking sense!


----------



## mjr (12 Jan 2021)

ColinJ said:


> He read on social media that the vaccine has had an IQ-booster added to it...
> 
> He is worried that he might end up thinking logically and talking sense!


"Have you ever seen a cognitive degrade, Marta?"

He might be horrified by his past actions if he starts thinking logically.


----------



## ColinJ (12 Jan 2021)

mjr said:


> "Have you ever seen a cognitive degrade, Marta?"
> 
> He might be horrified by his past actions if he starts thinking logically.


Not that there is anything wrong with keeping a bottle of rancid blood in your fridge at home and doing a bit of DIY blood-doping when you feel the need... 

But, Jeez - have a professional inject you with a rigorously-tested vaccine? No way, man!


----------



## matticus (12 Jan 2021)

Adam4868 said:


> Jail time !
> 
> View: https://twitter.com/laflammerouge16/status/1349014399131000841?s=19



If I'm reading that right, the stage he "won" was just ahead of an A.Contador.


----------



## Adam4868 (12 Jan 2021)

matticus said:


> If I'm reading that right, the stage he "won" was just ahead of an A.Contador.


Which proves he was definitely on some gear...


----------



## Adam4868 (21 Jan 2021)

Admirable or a get out of jail card 

View: https://twitter.com/danroan/status/1352151325551841280?s=19


----------



## rich p (21 Jan 2021)

Adam4868 said:


> Admirable or a get out of jail card
> 
> View: https://twitter.com/danroan/status/1352151325551841280?s=19



Just a little prick...


----------



## mjr (26 Jan 2021)

Freeman hearing is back on. GMC close the prosecution by making new arguments about Sky being full of doping sleeper agents? https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...h-sleepers-when-buying-testogel-tribunal-told


----------



## Adam4868 (26 Jan 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> It'll soon be rivalling the Mousetrap as London's longest running show.
> 
> Although from what I've read, the Mousetrap isn't a farce. (Enter Sutton stage right, trousers round ankles)


Lol...he'd never get away with being the masked singer 😁


----------



## Adam4868 (26 Jan 2021)

Freeman's QC says her summing up will have to begin on Tues - as she must speak to Freeman first & he's been "flat out" giving Covid-19 jabs all weekend.
To be fair he must be a dab hand with a needle by now....


----------



## matticus (26 Jan 2021)

Stop it you two - this is a serious topic!


----------



## mjr (26 Jan 2021)

matticus said:


> Stop it you two - this is a serious topic!


Covid jabs or the tribunal?


----------



## Adam4868 (26 Jan 2021)

I hope they manage to get Sutton back into the dock...to see if it will "stand up" to cross examination.....


----------



## ColinJ (26 Jan 2021)

Adam4868 said:


> I hope they manage to get Sutton back into the dock...to see if it will "stand up" to cross examination.....


I wouldn't put it past him to whip it out, plonk it on the table in front of him, and shout "_See - *what *bloody erectile dysfunction!_"


----------



## mjr (26 Jan 2021)

ColinJ said:


> I wouldn't put it past him to whip it out, plonk it on the table in front of him, and shout "_See - *what *bloody erectile dysfunction!_"


and then a patch flutters to the floor...


----------



## ColinJ (26 Jan 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> Carry on in a Jiffy, starring Kenneth Williams as Dr Richard Freeman, and Sid James as Shane Sutton.


I think Sid was _ever so slightly_ more affable than Shane!


----------



## Adam4868 (26 Jan 2021)

No more you'll wake @rich p up !


----------



## rich p (27 Jan 2021)

Adam4868 said:


> No more you'll wake @rich p up !


Did somebody call?
Anyone got Shane's number...I need some errmmmm


----------



## SWSteve (27 Jan 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> Seems that it has been adjourned again ...
> 
> 
> View: https://twitter.com/danroan/status/1354376799921311746



Interesting words here from Roan. He worked with Bolton for 8 years including during Big Sam‘s time there


----------



## Adam4868 (10 Mar 2021)

View: https://twitter.com/laflammerouge16/status/1369639873263636481?s=19


----------



## mjr (12 Mar 2021)

Freeman tribunal rules that he "has been dishonest" and the Testogel "was to be administered to an athlete to improve their athletic performance". Hearing to resume 17th March to consider his fitness to practise.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/56367117


----------



## mjr (12 Mar 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> Phew, I thought it may have finished. I couldn't face that.


I know, right? It's going to be like Emmerdale going off-air!

So, obvious question: which athlete and did he actually ever administer it? This must cast some shadow of suspicion over all BC and Sky riders during his practice and, as he was their top doctor, probably more over the top riders than the rest.


----------



## Martinsnos (12 Mar 2021)

I see in YouTube comments people post ‘you can’t win a Grand Tour without doping.’
Please,without shooting each other down, do people think that that is true?


----------



## matticus (12 Mar 2021)

mjr said:


> Freeman tribunal rules that he "has been dishonest" and the Testogel "was to be administered to an athlete to improve their athletic performance". Hearing to resume 17th March to consider his fitness to practise.
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/56367117


A hopefully factual question:
Is this basically the worst crime that they've been able to nail on him (or any staff/rider)?

(I know, we can pontificate about smoke and fires etc etc ... I'm just looking at what they'll _actually _be pinged for.)


----------



## johnblack (12 Mar 2021)

Martinsnos said:


> I see in YouTube comments people post ‘you can’t win a Grand Tour without doping.’
> Please,without shooting each other down, do people think that that is true?


They all stretch the rules that are in place. I don't believe there is much "clean" elite cycling or any other top class sport and it doesn't really bother me either. I guess I'll be in the minority with that.


----------



## mjr (12 Mar 2021)

matticus said:


> A hopefully factual question:
> Is this basically the worst crime that they've been able to nail on him (or any staff/rider)?
> 
> (I know, we can pontificate about smoke and fires etc etc ... I'm just looking at what they'll _actually _be pinged for.)


It depends how you're looking at it. I suspect he will be punished most harshly for destroying medical records because that really makes it difficult to decide with certainty what else he was doing.


----------



## Eziemnaik (12 Mar 2021)

@johnblack while I agree with sentiment, there is still a clear difference between using testosterone vs other, may not yet been banned, substances.
I always find it curious how high percentage of elite swimmers and cyclists suffer from asthma and in order to level the playing field they are allowed to use clen or sal.
An argument could be made that I should be able to inject myself with test because I have half the natural levels compared to the top athlete
@mjr I am not sure how it looks in the eye of the law but the destruction of ¿potential? evidence makes him look as guilty as it gets


----------



## Martinsnos (12 Mar 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> _Some_ people obviously do.
> 
> Personally, I don't have a clue. I know it _was_ true some years ago. And probably in a few years time I'll find out if it_ is_ true now.


That seems to be the way - thanks.


----------



## Martinsnos (12 Mar 2021)

johnblack said:


> They all stretch the rules that are in place. I don't believe there is much "clean" elite cycling or any other top class sport and it doesn't really bother me either. I guess I'll be in the minority with that.



Cheers. I suppose the issue is that it can prevent ‘clean’ riders having a career in cycling but everyone has different opinions and that is fine.


----------



## Eziemnaik (12 Mar 2021)

@Martinsnos with most riders consuming caffeine it is safe to say they are already in the grey area


----------



## Martinsnos (12 Mar 2021)

I’d never heard of Chris Horner, the oldest ever GT winner at the age of 41. I don’t recall commentators ever mentioning him which makes me think they don’t want to remind us all of something so suspect?!


----------



## Martinsnos (12 Mar 2021)

Eziemnaik said:


> @Martinsnos with most riders consuming caffeine it is safe to say they are already in the grey area


I do too - proven performance benefits apparently. Guess I should move to riding a bike next!!!


----------



## Martinsnos (12 Mar 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> He went on to marry Ginger Spice too. Clearly something going on there.


I didn’t know that (about the other one!) - interesting.
The cycling one has a YouTube channel and people ask him in the comments if he doped but I see he doesn’t reply!!!


----------



## lazybloke (12 Mar 2021)

Freeman attempts to finger Sutton. Gets shafted (same story as linked earlier)

"_During the tribunal, which has lasted for more than two years, Freeman said he was bullied into ordering the drug by former British Cycling and Team Sky performance director Shane Sutton to treat his erectile dysfunction._"


----------



## Adam4868 (12 Mar 2021)

How about its all on him....he got the gear and flushed it down his bog ? Meaning nobody else gets implicated 😁
I have noticed everytime they've shown this on the news its been with a accompanying video of Froome and Brailsford....whatever are they implying.....


----------



## newts (12 Mar 2021)

lazybloke said:


> Freeman attempts to finger Sutton. Gets shafted (same story as linked earlier)
> 
> "_During the tribunal, which has lasted for more than two years, Freeman said he was bullied into ordering the drug by former British Cycling and Team Sky performance director Shane Sutton to treat his erectile dysfunction._"


I'm not sure that'll stand up in court😊


----------



## mjr (12 Mar 2021)

So Richard Freeman used to be David Millar's doctor and he thinks he's a lovely man and everyone's made lots of mistakes and everyone should be punished but how but all the current young British riders are clean!

Not sure that was the best interview about a doping case that itv4 have ever broadcast.


----------



## Foghat (12 Mar 2021)

mjr said:


> Not sure that was the best interview about a doping case that itv4 have ever broadcast.



Imlach should have prefaced his first question to Millar with some kind of observation about the conflict of interest Millar has in this case, namely the position of his sister. Or ITV4 should have got another pundit in to deal with that part of the programme. Or both.

If his sister wasn't involved, I think Millar would have been more damning.


----------



## mjr (12 Mar 2021)

Foghat said:


> Imlach should have prefaced his first question to Millar with some kind of observation about the conflict of interest Millar has in this case, namely the position of his sister. Or ITV4 should have got another pundit in to deal with that part of the programme. Or both.
> 
> If his sister wasn't involved, I think Millar would have been more damning.


I'm not so sure. Last I heard, Millar and Brailsford were still friendly.

As you say, wrong person to ask. They've got Daniel Friebe there who might have been a fresh view, or Ned used to do the featurette job around that time so might have an interesting view. 

Or they could have ignored it and discussed the race.


----------



## Adam4868 (12 Mar 2021)

I'm not to sure Millar calling Freeman a great doctor is the right endorsement some how...
I feel sorry for Shane Sutton's nob in all of this.


----------



## Martinsnos (13 Mar 2021)

Foghat said:


> Imlach should have prefaced his first question to Millar with some kind of observation about the conflict of interest Millar has in this case, namely the position of his sister. Or ITV4 should have got another pundit in to deal with that part of the programme. Or both.
> 
> If his sister wasn't involved, I think Millar would have been more damning.



Very good point re his sister, I keep forgetting about her.

On an unrelated point, there was an interview with the ITV4 team and Gary Imlach came across as a thoroughly nice person.


----------



## Bollo (15 Mar 2021)

I would say he’s got some bollocks calling for an inquiry but ..... yeah....

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...nquiry-following-richard-freeman-saga-cycling


----------



## Adam4868 (15 Mar 2021)

Bollo said:


> I would say he’s got some bollocks calling for an inquiry but ..... yeah....
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...nquiry-following-richard-freeman-saga-cycling


Oi ! You've crossed a line with Sir Brad....can we just not leave it with Freeman ? 
Even Sir Dave has moved on to reinvent himself as the laid back "ride as you like" boss.
Expect a new book coming out by Brad..."It's nowt to do with the legs 😁


----------



## mjr (16 Mar 2021)

Bollo said:


> I would say he’s got some bollocks calling for an inquiry but ..... yeah....
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...nquiry-following-richard-freeman-saga-cycling


He wants to know if he was doped?


----------



## T4tomo (16 Mar 2021)

Martinsnos said:


> I’d never heard of Chris Horner, the oldest ever GT winner at the age of 41. I don’t recall commentators ever mentioning him which makes me think they don’t want to remind us all of something so suspect?!


One of the dodgiest looking grand tour wins in recent times, remember watching that with my son, it was pretty obvious he was on something, Horner, not my son he was only 12 at the time.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (16 Mar 2021)

Have they removed the motor units from Wiggos legs yet?


----------



## mjr (16 Mar 2021)

T4tomo said:


> One of the dodgiest looking grand tour wins in recent times, remember watching that with my son, it was pretty obvious he was on something, Horner, not my son he was only 12 at the time.


That reads an awful lot like your son started taking something once older!


----------



## T4tomo (16 Mar 2021)

mjr said:


> That reads an awful lot like your son started taking something once older!


it started with fruit based cider, fortunately he's now onto stout and ales


----------



## mjr (16 Mar 2021)

T4tomo said:


> it started with fruit based cider, fortunately he's now onto stout and ales


I have done extensive research and am yet to find any performance enhancing from those substances.


----------



## Martinsnos (16 Mar 2021)

T4tomo said:


> One of the dodgiest looking grand tour wins in recent times, remember watching that with my son, it was pretty obvious he was on something, Horner, not my son he was only 12 at the time.


It seems to defy belief!!!


----------



## coldash (17 Mar 2021)

T4tomo said:


> One of the dodgiest looking grand tour wins in recent times, remember watching that with my son, it was pretty obvious he was on something, Horner, not my son he was only 12 at the time.


.... and don’t forget the last minute change to the whereabouts system so that when the testers turned up at his hotel the morning after the race, he was on a plane back to the States

i remember one stage in that race when (IIRC) Nibali was chasing him so fast that he nearly overcooked a corner going uphill and still couldn’t close the gap


----------



## T4tomo (17 Mar 2021)

coldash said:


> i remember one stage in that race when (IIRC) Nibali was chasing him so fast that he nearly overcooked a corner going uphill and still couldn’t close the gap


That might have been the Angliru stage where he set the 2nd fastest ever ascent time, only bettered by Robert Heras in 2000. Heras is a former team mate of Lance Armstrong at US Postal, and was found guilty of EPO use (although got off on a technicality). Just saying


----------



## Dave Davenport (17 Mar 2021)

Or riding Contador off his wheel on a summit finish, then looking fresh as a daisy after winning the stage until he suddenly remembered to look knackered and pretended to collapse to the floor.
I'd say a draw with Cobo for most obviously doped GT winner of the last decade.


----------



## T4tomo (17 Mar 2021)

Dave Davenport said:


> Or riding Contador off his wheel on a summit finish, then looking fresh as a daisy after winning the stage until he suddenly remembered to look knackered and pretended to collapse to the floor.
> I'd say a draw with Cobo for most obviously doped GT winner of the last decade.


I recall Cobo also got help from other spanish teams /riders as they plotted against Froome


----------



## Dave Davenport (17 Mar 2021)

T4tomo said:


> I recall Cobo also got help from other spanish teams /riders as they plotted against Froome


Not to mention the 'supporters' trying to block Froome, shouting abuse, making throat cutting gestures etc. And that was before everyone hated Sky!


----------



## rich p (22 Mar 2021)

View: https://twitter.com/TheRaceRadio/status/1373775463542185988?s=20


Fuentes supposedly going to spill the beans next week on Operacion Puerta. 
History now but there was always speculation about which non cyclists were doping. Nadal, Ronaldo...?
Hard to believe it will come out now.


----------



## Milkfloat (22 Mar 2021)

rich p said:


> Hard to believe it will come out now.



It won't.


----------



## rich p (30 Mar 2021)

Another dope...r

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/vi...on-as-matteo-de-bonis-tests-positive-for-epo/


----------



## Slick (30 Mar 2021)

Ffs.


----------



## DCLane (30 Mar 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> Vini Zabu ... presumably the new name for Vini Fantini?
> 
> Leopard ... Spots



Yes - they were Vini-Fantini in 2013


----------



## matticus (31 Mar 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> presumably the new name for Vini Fantini?


One of the all-time great team names. A sad loss.

Sorry, that's a bit off-topic ...


----------



## BalkanExpress (31 Mar 2021)

rich p said:


> Another dope...r
> 
> https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/vi...on-as-matteo-de-bonis-tests-positive-for-epo/


 
Hopefully they will get a big UCI ban and Androni Giocattoli–Sidermec and their shirt of many sponsors will step in.


----------



## BalkanExpress (4 Jun 2021)

T Dekker back on a bike and racing gravel in the US as a bet.

To be honest, a bit disappointed to find that the bet was made during a podcast rather that while doing tequila shots in a dodgy Dutch "Sauna"...perhaps he's finally growing up a bit

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/it...dekker-back-in-the-saddle-for-unbound-gravel/


----------



## rich p (4 Jun 2021)

BalkanExpress said:


> T Dekker back on a bike and racing gravel in the US as a bet.
> 
> To be honest, a bit disappointed to find that the bet was made during a podcast rather that while doing tequila shots in a dodgy Dutch "Sauna"...perhaps he's finally growing up a bit
> 
> https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/it...dekker-back-in-the-saddle-for-unbound-gravel/


If he'd bet Ten Dam twice it would have been a double Dekker...


----------



## BalkanExpress (4 Jun 2021)

rich p said:


> If he'd bet Ten Dam twice it would have been a double Dekker...




Surely that would have been the case if Erik had decided to race as well


----------



## bitsandbobs (12 Aug 2021)

An ignominious end to a long career..

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/katie-compton-banned-for-four-years-by-usada/

Must hurt a bit when Betsema got off essentially scot-free. Something Compton was outspokenly critical of at the time..

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/betsemas-back-dated-six-month-doping-ban-is-bullshit-says-compton/


----------



## mjr (12 Aug 2021)

bitsandbobs said:


> An ignominious end to a long career..
> 
> https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/katie-compton-banned-for-four-years-by-usada/
> 
> ...


What am I missing? Why is it 4 years not 2? Not that it seems it would make a difference in this case, so close to retirement.


----------



## bitsandbobs (12 Aug 2021)

mjr said:


> What am I missing? Why is it 4 years not 2? Not that it seems it would make a difference in this case, so close to retirement.



Isn't 4 years the standard for intentional doping?


----------



## Adam4868 (12 Aug 2021)

Dodgy burger ? Whatever it's the end of her career...can we trust any of her wins ?


----------



## mjr (12 Aug 2021)

bitsandbobs said:


> Isn't 4 years the standard for intentional doping?


Well, yes, but how can it be intentional when Compton is still saying even while accepting the ban that "I have never intentionally or knowingly put anything like that into my body"?

UCI regs say "the term “intentional” is meant to identify those Ridersor other Personswho engage in conduct which they knew constituted an anti-doping rule violation or knew that there was a significant risk that the conduct might constitute or result in an anti-doping rule violation and manifestly disregarded that risk."


----------



## bitsandbobs (12 Aug 2021)

mjr said:


> Well, yes, but how can it be intentional when Compton is still saying even while accepting the ban that "I have never intentionally or knowingly put anything like that into my body"?



I guess USADA doesn't believe her! 

Her bio passport was pinged first and then old samples were reanalyzed. Will be interesting to see if USADA releases any more information.


----------



## mjr (12 Aug 2021)

bitsandbobs said:


> I guess USADA doesn't believe her!


Surely that alone isn't sufficient to prove intent? I'm sure we can all think of cases where it's difficult to imagine how doping wasn't intentional but it couldn't be proved and the doper got only a 2 year ban.

If that's the article she's been banned under, it's rather odd that she has been deemed to have "accepted" the verdict when she continues to protest her innocence. Hopefully the USADA announcement of the ban will explain a bit more.


----------



## matticus (12 Aug 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> So she's doing both: Publicly protesting her innocence, but accepting the ban from USADA. A kind of Schrodinger's doper.


I don't really see a problem?

It's always possible for any legal-type system to get things wrong. And the accused can believe something different to the truth. Either way, it's possible to believe you're innocent, but accept that you cannot change the court's verdict.

(Like accepting that you've been dumped - crying about it won't bring him/her back!)


----------



## Adam4868 (12 Aug 2021)

matticus said:


> I don't really see a problem?
> 
> It's always possible for any legal-type system to get things wrong. And the accused can believe something different to the truth. Either way, it's possible to believe you're innocent, but accept that you cannot change the court's verdict.
> 
> (Like accepting that you've been dumped - crying about it won't bring him/her back!)


Yea right...I could really see her holding her hands up and saying "fair cop,you've got me bang to rights,I've had a good run"


----------



## Dogtrousers (12 Aug 2021)

matticus said:


> I don't really see a problem?


Neither do I. Just quoting the relevant section, pointing out that she wasn't just "deemed to have accepted", she had indeed accepted the verdict.


----------



## mjr (12 Aug 2021)

matticus said:


> I don't really see a problem?


The main problem is how it's ended up as 4 years. Even Riccò didn't get banned for intentional doping the first time, despite him confessing and eventually getting a reduced ban on appeal to CAS for cooperating with the authorities.

It'll be interesting if the verdict is actually published, or at least what article the charge was!


----------



## bitsandbobs (12 Aug 2021)

mjr said:


> The main problem is how it's ended up as 4 years. Even Riccò didn't get banned for intentional doping the first time, despite him confessing and eventually getting a reduced ban on appeal to CAS for cooperating with the authorities.
> 
> It'll be interesting if the verdict is actually published, or at least what article the charge was!



The WADA code has changed somewhat since Riccò was doping. The 4 year ban for intentional doping was introduced in 2015.


----------



## rich p (13 Aug 2021)

bitsandbobs said:


> The WADA code has changed somewhat since Riccò was doping. The 4 year ban for intentional doping was introduced in 2015.


Ricco should have had an extra ban for being a complete twat


----------



## ColinJ (13 Aug 2021)

rich p said:


> Ricco should have had an extra ban for being a complete twat


I don't think that the threat of it would have deterred him though - he was apparently quite *happy to risk the death penalty*!


----------



## bitsandbobs (13 Aug 2021)

rich p said:


> Ricco should have had an extra ban for being a complete twat



Apparently, he now has a no needles policy..

https://cyclingtips.com/2021/01/riccardo-ricco-doesnt-want-to-be-injected-with-who-knows-what/

A complete loon


----------



## GuyBoden (18 Aug 2021)

bitsandbobs said:


> An ignominious end to a long career..
> 
> https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/katie-compton-banned-for-four-years-by-usada/
> 
> ...


History is trying to inform us that eating beef is not a very good idea for professional athletes. So, why take the unnecessary risk?


----------



## DCLane (15 Oct 2021)

49 year-old winner of Bike in the Bluff (not 'Buff'  ) 3rd cat race banned for 4 years: https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/...doping-ban-after-after-winning-cat-three-race


----------



## DCLane (16 Oct 2021)

Two Italians banned: https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/two-italian-cyclists-banned-following-doping-violations

The national TT champion Francesco Pesciaioli for evading a test, another for a banned steroid.


----------



## mjr (20 Oct 2021)

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...rongdoing-in-drug-testing-of-british-cyclists
UK Anti-Doping and British Cycling testing defective in 2011.


----------



## mjr (21 Oct 2021)

Hair samples from 3 of 7 Bahrain team at TdF during police raid were positive for prescription painkillers, if I've read https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34549540/ correctly.

While probably not UCI-illegal doping, pundits seem to be using it to suggest "finish bottles" containing painkillers may be to blame for an increase in crashes near stage finishes. Some have asked about whether the riders had prescriptions and the legality of it if not, but I guess no one feels like publishing their medical records and the French authorities haven't arrested anyone yet AFAIK.


----------



## Eziemnaik (23 Oct 2021)

Gray area, if it is not explicitly forbidden then....
Bahrain had a VERY good season, they are visibly stronger than last year...

This TDF has been very special - fastest since 2005 when the unmentionable was in prime form. These are facts and not all can be accounted for by marginal gains and disc brakes


----------



## Adam4868 (23 Oct 2021)

Bahrain statement.
A spokesperson for the Bahraini-funded team said: “Team Bahrain Victorious and any of its riders have not been officially or unofficially notified about any findings related to tizanidine or other substances.

“The team would like to stress that the authors of the scientific article to which all allegations refer have unambiguously pointed out that tizanidine is not a prohibited substance in sport.

"The team is consulting legal advice about the nature in which this information was published during an ongoing investigation without the team being notified which has impacted the team’s reputation. At this moment, the team has no further comments


----------



## DRM (23 Oct 2021)

Eziemnaik said:


> Gray area, if it is not explicitly forbidden then....
> Bahrain had a VERY good season, they are visibly stronger than last year...
> 
> This TDF has been very special - fastest since 2005 when the unmentionable was in prime form. These are facts and not all can be accounted for by marginal gains and disc brakes


I think we all suspected that some teams were up to no good, I think this is evidence of the rules being stretched to breaking point


----------



## roadrash (23 Oct 2021)

if rules are not broken then no problem ,every team , i dont care who they are will do all they can to win, IF and WHEN rules are broken then it becomes a problem.


----------



## DRM (23 Oct 2021)

roadrash said:


> if rules are not broken then no problem ,every team , i dont care who they are will do all they can to win, IF and WHEN rules are broken then it becomes a problem.


I agree, but was under the impression that painkillers were banned substances, however it explains a lot regarding some amazing performances that we’ve witnessed lately.
Edit: Having read the link above it was found in hair samples, and isn’t a banned substance, wasn’t this why Richard Virenque sported a bleached hair do the year of the Festina scandal.


----------



## mjr (23 Oct 2021)

roadrash said:


> if rules are not broken then no problem ,every team , i dont care who they are will do all they can to win, IF and WHEN rules are broken then it becomes a problem.


Shouldn't having prescription drugs without a prescription be against the rules? Shouldn't anaesthetising riders as they head into a dangerous sprint finish be against the rules? I am surprised if they do not already break some rule and I suspect the problem is proving it happened in that way on a balance of probabilities, let alone beyond reasonable doubt.


----------



## Adam4868 (23 Oct 2021)

mjr said:


> Shouldn't having prescription drugs without a prescription be against the rules? Shouldn't anaesthetising riders as they head into a dangerous sprint finish be against the rules? I am surprised if they do not already break some rule and I suspect the problem is proving it happened in that way on a balance of probabilities, let alone beyond reasonable doubt.


Should....but there not.So a bit of a non story.


----------



## roadrash (23 Oct 2021)

^^^^ wot he sed ^^^^


----------



## DRM (23 Oct 2021)

mjr said:


> Shouldn't having prescription drugs without a prescription be against the rules? Shouldn't anaesthetising riders as they head into a dangerous sprint finish be against the rules? I am surprised if they do not already break some rule and I suspect the problem is proving it happened in that way on a balance of probabilities, let alone beyond reasonable doubt.


It does make you think about some of the crashes that have happened this year, even if I was capable, which I’m not, I wouldn’t fancy battling out a group sprint feeling a bit woolly headed


----------



## roadrash (23 Oct 2021)

DRM said:


> I wouldn’t fancy battling out a group sprint feeling a bit woolly head




if as you say , it leaves you feeling wooly headed , surely that would put a sprinter taking it , in a diss advantage


----------



## DRM (23 Oct 2021)

roadrash said:


> if as you say , it leaves you feeling wooly headed , surely that would put a sprinter taking it , in a diss advantage


That’s why I wouldn’t fancy it, you need to be on the ball with eyes in the back of your head, and very spatially aware


----------



## Adam4868 (23 Oct 2021)

Your not on each other's Xmas cards list then....
I reckon shaved heads are part of team orders at Bahrain next season 🙄


----------



## roadrash (23 Oct 2021)

Adam4868 said:


> I reckon shaved heads are part of team orders at Bahrain next season



Yay, i can ride for bahrain  as long as a shaved head is the only requirement


----------



## cyberknight (2 Feb 2022)

wada investigating a drug found in samples at bahrain victorious at last years tdf, the drug is not on the banned list yet but is a muscle relaxant for MS etc and works by blocking pain nerve impulses to the brain.


----------



## Red17 (2 Feb 2022)

Interesting video on doping issues / spiking (with subtitles) 


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fX5gVgFxSI



apologies if posted before


----------



## Adam4868 (15 Feb 2022)

Toon Aerts tests positive.
https://cyclingtips.com/2022/02/cyclocross-star-toon-aerts-tests-positive-for-banned-substance.


----------



## mjr (16 Feb 2022)

Adam4868 said:


> Toon Aerts tests positive.
> https://cyclingtips.com/2022/02/cyclocross-star-toon-aerts-tests-positive-for-banned-substance.


Well, that's an odd one. Letrozole is used to counteract side effects of anabolic steroid abuse. I wonder if Baloise Trek Lions have money to test wherever he was staying 17-19 January to look for contamination.


----------



## bitsandbobs (16 Feb 2022)

I expect this will pan out like the Betsema case. Dodgy supplements or he'll find someone he knows being treated for breast cancer.


----------



## Eziemnaik (16 Feb 2022)

Most likely a testosterone (or other aromatizing steroid) cycle (hehehe) - letrozole is used to combat elevated levels of estrogen/estradiol. What's interesting it is a nuclear option which will kill your estrogen - used when Milder stuff is not enough


----------



## Adam4868 (22 Jul 2022)

Good that there's not been much going on in here....I'll stick this here as I'm not even sure what he's done or if he's done anything.😁

View: https://twitter.com/VeloClubDuNet/status/1550394270242275329?t=-beCLVY_KlKCI7T2VpA2NQ&s=19


----------



## Adam4868 (22 Jul 2022)

Ok the above is in relation to a drug trafficking case...there's a link in the comments to this put out by his team.

View: https://twitter.com/AstanaQazTeam/status/1550390695432785923?t=4eTQCAroTVbIRnmLbc4wbw&s=19


----------



## cougie uk (22 Jul 2022)

Astana you say. 

Shocked. 

Shocked to the core !


----------



## Adam4868 (22 Jul 2022)

Hopefully it's a bullsh1t story for Lopez
https://www.eurosport.es/ciclismo/e...presunto-trafico-de-me_sto9054006/story.shtml


----------



## Adam4868 (17 Aug 2022)

Nairoman 😲

View: https://twitter.com/Copedaleando/status/1559889924534550528?t=WD1Ed1QQqXNX29QVJm_Z5w&s=19


----------



## roadrash (17 Aug 2022)

I was just reading that, what the hell was he thinking,


----------



## Tenkaykev (17 Aug 2022)

"As this is a first offence, Nairo Alexander Quintana Rojas is not declared ineligible and can therefore participate in competitions."

Using tramadol is an offence only under the UCI Medical Rules due to the side-effects of the substance which include dizziness, drowsiness and loss of attention. They do not constitute Anti-Doping Rule Violations.


----------



## Tenkaykev (17 Aug 2022)

Mrs Tenkaykev was saying that when she was working there was a big push from the drug companies to get GP's to prescribe Tramadol, this was quite a few years ago. It's not as effective as opiates for deadening pain, it's in a sort of "no mans land " of pain medication


----------



## Jameshow (17 Aug 2022)

Tenkaykev said:


> "As this is a first offence, Nairo Alexander Quintana Rojas is not declared ineligible and can therefore participate in competitions."
> 
> Using tramadol is an offence only under the UCI Medical Rules due to the side-effects of the substance which include dizziness, drowsiness and loss of attention. They do not constitute Anti-Doping Rule Violations.



Was that what Froome, Bernal GT and were on recently.....!🤣🤣💥💥


----------



## Mike_P (17 Aug 2022)

Tenkaykev said:


> Using tramadol is an offence only under the UCI Medical Rules due to the side-effects of the substance which include dizziness, drowsiness and loss of attention. They do not constitute Anti-Doping Rule Violations.


Did they test Astana and Movistar?


----------



## Adam4868 (17 Aug 2022)

Mike_P said:


> Did they test Astana and Movistar?


Yes they both got the wrong batch.... definitely the drowsy ones 🙄


----------



## Tenkaykev (17 Aug 2022)

Mike_P said:


> Did they test Astana and Movistar?



I have no idea, I was only referring to the official information released concerning the particular incident, and my wife’s professional experience of the drug referred to.


----------



## Stonechat (18 Aug 2022)

Tenkaykev said:


> Mrs Tenkaykev was saying that when she was working there was a big push from the drug companies to get GP's to prescribe Tramadol, this was quite a few years ago. It's not as effective as opiates for deadening pain, it's in a sort of "no mans land " of pain medication



Well it is an opiate


----------



## Adam4868 (18 Aug 2022)

Noooo....Nairoman 😲

View: https://twitter.com/ammattipyoraily/status/1560190611969515522?t=A2Bndm0IAw-62XW5tPhZHQ&s=19


----------



## Dogtrousers (18 Aug 2022)

Tramadol? Doping scandals aren't what they used to be.

Yeah, I know it's serious, but come on. Bring back the soigneurs with suitcases full of stuff, I say.


----------



## mjr (18 Aug 2022)

Dogtrousers said:


> Tramadol? Doping scandals aren't what they used to be.
> 
> Yeah, I know it's serious, but come on. Bring back the soigneurs with suitcases full of stuff, I say.


Or rather, they're exactly what they used to be before the effective red blood cell boosters and hormones came along. Tales of literally dopey cyclists of the 1980s and early 90s, out of their skulls on cocktails of painkillers, sleeping drugs and alcohol, doing really stupid things like jumping out of first floor windows, are plentiful.

Nairoman really is an old school cycle racer, isn't he?


----------



## rich p (18 Aug 2022)

He's denying using it which is tricky to prove if it's in his blood ...not that I know much about this kind of stuff. My life is 90% drowsy blur but beer isn't on the banned list as far as I know!
His best defence might be that it's not on WADAs banned list.


----------



## Adam4868 (18 Aug 2022)

Ok I'm no expert...but I've taken Tramadol for pain relief.Im no pro though (well I could of been if I wanted) Cycling is about suffering so I'm guessing if you've taken it for gains,to not suffer,muscle relaxant etc and it's on a banned list it's wrong....
There again this is Nairoman 😲
More important is who Arkea got to take his place 😁


----------



## rich p (18 Aug 2022)

Adam4868 said:


> More important is who Arkea got to take his place



Are you free?


----------



## Adam4868 (18 Aug 2022)

rich p said:


> Are you free?


Any pan flat stages less than 20 miles....my speciality.


----------



## T4tomo (18 Aug 2022)

Adam4868 said:


> Any pan flat stages less than 20 miles....my speciality.



stage 1 then fella....


----------



## Adam4868 (18 Aug 2022)

T4tomo said:


> stage 1 then fella....


Feck that....I'd need four Tremadol to swing my leg over a TT bike 😁


----------



## Adam4868 (18 Aug 2022)

rich p said:


> Are you free?


No substitute for Nairo Quintana on Arkea's Vuelta team. They'll start with 7 riders.


----------



## Mike_P (18 Aug 2022)

Possibly not the best phrase Amanda Spratt could have used - starts to wonder about Trek

View: https://twitter.com/Cyclingnewsfeed/status/1560159602834128899


----------



## mjr (19 Aug 2022)

Mike_P said:


> Possibly not the best phrase Amanda Spratt could have used - starts to wonder about Trek


Careful: I posted something similar about Jumbo linking WVA's climbing with Vingegaard's comments in his final press conference about the team's wonderful "preparation" methods and a few on here got really upset! 

It's probably safest to assume that the current cohort of riders are ignorant of the loaded language associated with past dopers.


----------



## matticus (19 Aug 2022)

Adam4868 said:


> No substitute for Nairo Quintana on Arkea's Vuelta team. They'll start with 7 riders.



That's bonkers! (I assume they were *permitted* to bring in a sub?)


----------



## cougie uk (19 Aug 2022)

matticus said:


> That's bonkers! (I assume they were *permitted* to bring in a sub?)



Maybe everyone else was on holiday or racing elsewhere.


----------



## Adam4868 (19 Aug 2022)

matticus said:


> That's bonkers! (I assume they were *permitted* to bring in a sub?)


Teams must have a certain number of riders on startlist that they are allowed start a race....don't want any more negative publicity maybe.A lot of there team are racing elsewhere ? Or im guessing maybe Covid...some sort of protocol?


----------



## matticus (19 Aug 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Maybe everyone else was on holiday or racing elsewhere.



But it's the VUELTA!!!

Oh well 🤷‍♂️ ...


----------



## cougie uk (19 Aug 2022)

matticus said:


> But it's the VUELTA!!!
> 
> Oh well 🤷‍♂️ ...



Exactly! I'm usually fatigued by the time the Vuelta comes around. It definitely gets less watching than the other two GTs from me.


----------



## Adam4868 (19 Aug 2022)

Opposite for me...I'm thinking noooo not the last race of the season 😲


----------



## rich p (19 Aug 2022)

There's a report on Inrng that if Nairoman loses his points from the TdF then Arkea's position in the relegation fight becomes more precarious. 
Also the lower placed riders would move up a place and gain more points.
It also poses the question of his defence. 
As it's not freely available without prescription in France, he either took it to France with him (which screws his denial) or a doctor prescribed it illegally which throws up other implications.


----------



## rich p (19 Aug 2022)

And now an MTB rider and one of Tommy P's biggest rivals has tested positive for old school anabolic steroids FFS
https://www.velonews.com/news/mount...ropean-championships-due-to-doping-violation/


----------



## Adam4868 (19 Aug 2022)

@roadrash Velogames if you can be arsed Gaz...Hope you and yours are well 😁


----------



## roadrash (19 Aug 2022)

@Adam4868 Thanks,done, a bit rushed, but done, mrs just getting over gastro enteritis on top of all she has going on, shes on the best side of it now though , hope you and yours are all well mate.


----------



## Stonechat (6 Oct 2022)

Well the Portuguese are making up for the lack of avtivity in this thread. Some fairly whoslae doping had gone on


----------



## mjr (7 Oct 2022)

Stonechat said:


> Well the Portuguese are making up for the lack of avtivity in this thread. Some fairly whoslae doping had gone on


Seven from FC Porto. https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/seven-riders-from-portuguese-squad-w52-fc-porto-banned-for-doping/

Are there more I've not seen?


----------



## rich p (7 Oct 2022)

Stonechat said:


> Well the Portuguese are making up for the lack of avtivity in this thread. Some fairly whoslae doping had gone on





mjr said:


> Seven from FC Porto. https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/seven-riders-from-portuguese-squad-w52-fc-porto-banned-for-doping/
> 
> Are there more I've not seen?


What it does mean is that Jaoa Rodriguez will lose his result from the Tour of the Algarve from 2021 and Ethan Hayter will get the GC.


----------



## Adam4868 (3 Nov 2022)

What next for Nairoman 😲

View: https://twitter.com/UCI_media/status/1588130901719908355?t=5KF4ECjLselzAj-D9suqMQ&s=19


----------



## rich p (3 Nov 2022)

Adam4868 said:


> What next for Nairoman 😲
> 
> View: https://twitter.com/UCI_media/status/1588130901719908355?t=5KF4ECjLselzAj-D9suqMQ&s=19




Astana? They're desperate!


----------



## Adam4868 (3 Nov 2022)

rich p said:


> Astana? They're desperate!


I'm sure Superman could sort him out 🙄


----------



## rich p (3 Nov 2022)

Adam4868 said:


> I'm sure Superman could sort him out 🙄



And Vino's a sound bloke too


----------



## rich p (10 Nov 2022)

Another painkiller taking git on Tramadol gets his World Champ results DQed
Joining Nairo on the naughty chair
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uk...-world-championships-after-tramadol-positive/


----------



## matticus (10 Nov 2022)

rich p said:


> Another painkiller taking git on Tramadol gets his World Champ results DQed
> Joining Nairo on the naughty chair
> https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uk...-world-championships-after-tramadol-positive/



He was 43rd. Without this positive test no-one would have heard of him!


----------



## Ian H (10 Nov 2022)

matticus said:


> He was 43rd. Without this positive test no-one would have heard of him!



You're saying it was a good career move?


----------



## matticus (10 Nov 2022)

Ian H said:


> You're saying it was a good career move?



Part of me thinks:
Why on earth did he bother??
The other part thinks:
Yes, Ian, you may well be right!

The world's gawn maaaaaad ...


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## Ian H (10 Nov 2022)

matticus said:


> Part of me thinks:
> Why on earth did he bother??
> The other part thinks:
> Yes, Ian, you may well be right!
> ...


{Paging @theclaud }

If he was a domestique he'd have had a lot of hard work to do out of the limelight. Perhaps a little 'pick-me-up' helped him along - made the day-job a little easier.


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## Adam4868 (10 Nov 2022)

"Everything was beautiful and nothing hurt"


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## rich p (24 Nov 2022)

Using google translate, this seems to implicate Astana and Miguel Angl]el Lopez

https://elpais.com/deportes/2022-11...ulacion-de-una-trama-de-dopaje.html?ssm=TW_CC


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## Adam4868 (12 Dec 2022)

Lopez potted ! Space for Cav 

View: https://twitter.com/Domestique___/status/1602375715835547648?t=L2fB1QfX4n0U4G8m0c32Tg&s=19


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## cyberknight (13 Dec 2022)

Adam4868 said:


> Lopez potted ! Space for Cav
> 
> View: https://twitter.com/Domestique___/status/1602375715835547648?t=L2fB1QfX4n0U4G8m0c32Tg&s=19




Not the team certified doctor then 🤔


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## Adam4868 (13 Dec 2022)

The Lopez defence line of claiming "never tested positive for any drugs or doping" should be enough for a guilty verdict alone 

View: https://twitter.com/petercossins/status/1602396912153464847?t=as6F6GmULI5csuTdU7iOXQ&s=19


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## DCLane (13 Dec 2022)

Well it'll give them a space for a certain sprinter wanting a slot ...


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## Adam4868 (13 Dec 2022)

DCLane said:


> Well it'll give them a space for a certain sprinter wanting a slot ...


Let's be honest....there hardly flooded with talent.


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## DCLane (13 Dec 2022)

Personally my view is Mark Cavendish will hold out until the wildcard teams are announced, then sign a short-term contract with one of them. It'll get him access to the Tour and the team more exposure than they would usually get. Given Israel P-T has 28, not 30, riders that _actually _may end up being it.


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## Adam4868 (13 Dec 2022)

DCLane said:


> Personally my view is Mark Cavendish will hold out until the wildcard teams are announced, then sign a short-term contract with one of them. It'll get him access to the Tour and the team more exposure than they would usually get. Given Israel P-T has 28, not 30, riders that _actually _may end up being it.


Wrong thread but it's slow news time of year.....maybe us cycling fans are overstating the publicity value and team managements aren't?


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## Adam4868 (13 Dec 2022)

Pete says Cav has allready signed for a team.
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/pe...sh-has-definitely-signed-a-contract-for-2023/


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## rich p (13 Dec 2022)

Adam4868 said:


> Pete says Cav has allready signed for a team.
> https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/pe...sh-has-definitely-signed-a-contract-for-2023/



I saw that but don't quite get it. If he's signed then why not announce it?
If not then it's bollox.
If he has signed and wants to keep it schtum for now, why would his friend leak it?


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## Adam4868 (13 Dec 2022)

rich p said:


> I saw that but don't quite get it. If he's signed then why not announce it?
> If not then it's bollox.
> If he has signed and wants to keep it schtum for now, why would his friend leak it?


Signed for Eurosport....him and Carlton? 
Yes I agree its odd,I know there mates so it was probally more...
"Pete everyone is doing my fecking head in mate,I wish someone would just offer me a ride"
"I'll sort it out Mark....leave it with me"


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## rich p (13 Dec 2022)

Adam4868 said:


> and Carlton?



Did you have to. Adam? I mean, it's Christmas ...gimme a break FFS


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## Adam4868 (13 Dec 2022)

rich p said:


> Did you have to. Adam? I mean, it's Christmas ...gimme a break FFS


Bah humbug !


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## roadrash (14 Dec 2022)

carlton and cav , what a partnership..


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## rich p (14 Dec 2022)

Adam4868 said:


> Bah humbug !



He was doing a gig in Brighton last week - venue held 120 and tickets were available on the day... 
... nuff said


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## Alex321 (14 Dec 2022)

roadrash said:


> carlton and cav , what a partnership..



I'd rather listen to Cav than to Carlton any day.


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## Adam4868 (14 Dec 2022)

Alex321 said:


> I'd rather listen to Cav than to Carlton any day.


There's help for you out there.


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## Adam4868 (14 Dec 2022)

rich p said:


> He was doing a gig in Brighton last week - venue held 120 and tickets were available on the day...
> ... nuff said


He allways holds a few back for friends 😍


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## Dogtrousers (14 Dec 2022)

And why is this in the Doping Git thread. Surely it should be in the Dopey Git thread?


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## Cathryn (14 Dec 2022)

I wish they'd announce it, it's very stressful for us all!


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## matticus (15 Dec 2022)

rich p said:


> He was doing a gig in Brighton last week - venue held 120 and tickets were available on the day...
> ... nuff said



Carlton? They probably can't understand him in Brighton.


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## mjr (15 Dec 2022)

matticus said:


> Carlton? They probably can't understand him in Brighton.


You seem to have an unnecessary "in Brighton" in there.

Never mind, you can enjoy all his incomprehensible comments on doping on the subscription EurosportPlayer app, until it's canned, like almost all sub apps.


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## matticus (15 Dec 2022)

mjr said:


> You seem to have an unnecessary "in Brighton" in there.



I assume SOMEONE can understand him. SOMEwhere?


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## Adam4868 (15 Dec 2022)

The King of Commentary 😍


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