# Drivers, what is going on?



## I like Skol (4 Jul 2018)

Not sure where to post this but it needs discussing and I need to get it off my chest!

I was knocked off my bike in February by a driver rushing and not watching where he was going. Result was a broken neck and fractured skull. Just getting back on my bike in the last two weeks as my condition has improved.

Tonight I have just heard that my younger brother has been knocked off his bike while out training for an upcoming sportive this Sunday. He is in A&E but sounds like he has got away with just bruising and scrapes. He was knocked off by a car joining a roundabout as he passed and hitting his rear wheel, knocking the bike out from under him. Two cars approached the roundabout on the dual carriageway, 1st stopped (RH lane ?) and 2nd car (LH lane ?) didn't stop!

What is going on? My own real world experience of cycling indicates that it is getting worse. Near misses are increasing, drivers seem to be much less capable of paying attention while being in more of a rush! My view is that this has accelerated almost exponentially in the last 5 years.

Why? Why do drivers either not realise or not care about the consequences of their actions. What is the reason for this apparent epidemic of inattentive driving and is there a solution? My own suspicion is that there is no solution, either accept an ever increasing risk or stop cycling.

Please tell me I am just experiencing a hiccup and in reality things are no worse than they were 10-15 yrs ago.......


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## Drago (4 Jul 2018)

Too many people driving HUA, not enough punishment to deter them from doing so.


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## I like Skol (4 Jul 2018)

HUA?


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## Johnno260 (4 Jul 2018)

I leave for work way earlier then needed so I can take a slow drive in, I think much of the issue is people rushing. 

The other issue is people really don’t seem to care at the moment.


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## DCLane (4 Jul 2018)

Unfortunately you're not the only one - it seems to be that driving is abysmal in West Yorkshire and getting worse.


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## NorthernDave (4 Jul 2018)

Sadly driving standards generally seem to be falling off a cliff edge. 
A situation not helped by the lack of any meaningful police enforcement and a lack of appropriately severe penalties in many cases when the worst happens.


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## Drago (4 Jul 2018)

I like Skol said:


> HUA?



Sorry, dibble terminology. HUA = Head Up Arriss.


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## Venod (4 Jul 2018)

DCLane said:


> Unfortunately you're not the only one - it seems to be that driving is abysmal in West Yorkshire and getting worse.



I have to agree, the close pass message seems to be getting through a little but the general driving standards seem to be getting worse, I had to stop and recover after nearly being taken out on the A64 roundabout recently, the bloke who knocked me off, resulting in a head on collision and a broken shoulder was driving like a moron and deserved his punishment of driving without due care and attention fine.


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## SkipdiverJohn (4 Jul 2018)

NorthernDave said:


> Sadly driving standards generally seem to be falling off a cliff edge.



It's quite obvious that a lot of the worst muppets on the road have never passed a legit UK driving test, as they haven't got a scooby. Loads of dodgy stuff goes on, especially impersonation of the test candidate by somebody else.


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## Pumpkin the robot (4 Jul 2018)

I like Skol said:


> Not sure where to post this but it needs discussing and I need to get it off my chest!
> 
> I was knocked off my bike in February by a driver rushing and not watching where he was going. Result was a broken neck and fractured skull. Just getting back on my bike in the last two weeks as my condition has improved.
> 
> ...


 Four years ago I had a similar injury to yourself (c6, c7 and t1) just around the corner from you as well, after a car pulled out in front of me. I went through the drivers window, headbutting the driver in the process. I was off work for a year and now have a permanent injury/pain because a driver did not bother to properly check the road was clear. I would like to think it was an accident, but too many people are only sorry after the fact. It is a little late then.
Once I got back on the bike, I recorded the rides I did to work. It is only in the last year that I have started to commute regularly as it is much closer to home. Since xmas I have reported 4 drivers for driving that is dangerous. They have all been prosecuted. I have sent another couple yesterday and today (cars passing closely on corners while there are cars coming the other way) and I would expect them to be prosecuted too. I only report the worst driving I see, there is plenty of inconsiderate driving (yesterday a woman in an ASL while on her phone took exception to being filmed, but at least she put the phone down) and it is not only on the bike I see it. I feel it is wrong to have to record rides, but the only way some of these drivers will learn is if they are reported for their terrible driving.


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## classic33 (4 Jul 2018)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> It's quite obvious that a lot of the worst muppets on the road have never passed a legit UK driving test, as they haven't got a scooby. Loads of dodgy stuff goes on, especially impersonation of the test candidate by somebody else.


They just "forget the lot" once they've passed. I've a test centre near me, and there's idiots in and out every day.


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## Pat "5mph" (4 Jul 2018)

@I like Skol 
I feel invisible on the roads sometimes.
Bright lights, signals, position, yet, even pedestrian look at a bike, still step out in front.


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## KneesUp (4 Jul 2018)

My closest pass on the way home today was just before my street. It was plainly too close, but the driver had chosen to pass me just as the road narrowed so other than - you know - wait 10 seconds to get to the traffic lights, she had no choice but to get really close to me. The Transit behind her did exactly the same thing, which was unfortunate as it was in full police livery, being driven by a uniformed officer.

If the police are demonstrating that close passing and not really thinking or caring is fine, it's expecting a bit much of normal motorists to behave better.


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## classic33 (5 Jul 2018)

KneesUp said:


> My closest pass on the way home today was just before my street. It was plainly too close, but the driver had chosen to pass me just as the road narrowed so other than - you know - wait 10 seconds to get to the traffic lights, she had no choice but to get really close to me. The Transit behind her did exactly the same thing, which was unfortunate as it was in full police livery, being driven by a uniformed officer.
> 
> If the police are demonstrating that close passing and not really thinking or caring is fine, it's expecting a bit much of normal motorists to behave better.


Report it. Location and time are known to you.

If they're on "Blues and Two's", I try and get off the road as soon as it's possible, which ever service they are. Otherwise I try to let them past when it's safe to do so.


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## Lonestar (5 Jul 2018)

I'm not sure but some of it is don't think ahead and can't concentrate...apart from rushing.Then again some of our own on the CS 3 are similar to this,also.

Lack of policing and some seem a bit thick.Please see can't think ahead._In_considerate.Selfish.Clueless.Lack of policing.


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## alicat (5 Jul 2018)

Cars are much more automated than they used to be so drivers think they can multi-task. 

The increase in automation in cars (lights/windscreen wipers, straying out of lane, getting to close to a car in front) coupled with a smart phone obsession is reducing some people's attention spans and also encouraging them to multitask to the detriment of their driving. Even if they are not actually on their phones when driving, they are not really present and concentrating on the job in hand any more.


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## gbb (5 Jul 2018)

I drive a section of the A1M/A14 every workday and it's just a free for all.
Lane two drivers...thats normal.
Lane 3 of 4 drivers...steadfastly oblivious to everything around them aren't a surprise anymore...steadfastly sitting there when there's absolutely no need. That's laziness or selfishness,
Launch control drivers entering the motorway. Accelerate like a F1 start and into lane 4 ASAP.
Last second exiters, dive across multiple lanes to exit or duck in far too close to the car behind and create a stream of brake lights as everyone then has to suddenly slow down.
Off the motorway...red light jumpers are now so common you'd be suicidal NOT to assume because the lights have turned green in your favour that at least one, often two cars will still blunder on through the just turned red.
Everywhere is like a race track. I never saw it as bad as it is nowadays. Considering they've beefed up the driving test immensely over the last 20 or so years...i wonder why they bothered.


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## screenman (5 Jul 2018)

Everyday standards are dropping, not just driving.


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## mustang1 (5 Jul 2018)

Johnno260 said:


> I leave for work way earlier then needed so I can take a slow drive in, I think much of the issue is people rushing.
> 
> The other issue is people really don’t seem to care at the moment.



I leave early when possible too. But so do others. So I have to leave even earlier. As more people get clued on to the benefits of leaving early, more will do so. The current early-leavers will have to leave even earlier. Some time in the future, rush hour may start at 3AM.

So why are people in a rush? Bottom line: dollars, fear of losing job, not organized enough, too many things to do. That saying "not enough hours in the day". If there were more hours in the day, we wouldn't have free hours because that would eventually be taken up by the norm eventually becoming "working more hours". There is always more to do than there are hours in the day. Maybe it eats into people's sleep patterns which further augments the problem.


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## mustang1 (5 Jul 2018)

alicat said:


> Cars are much more automated than they used to be so drivers think they can multi-task.
> 
> The increase in automation in cars (lights/windscreen wipers, straying out of lane, getting to close to a car in front) coupled with a smart phone obsession is reducing some people's attention spans and also encouraging them to multitask to the detriment of their driving. Even if they are not actually on their phones when driving, they are not really present and concentrating on the job in hand any more.



The vast majority of cars do not have such automation (re lane-keeping assist). It's just lower standards, more people on the road, more of a rush. If more cars had those auto-brakes that stop you getting too close, that would be useful. In fact, just a fully-automated car would be great, but that's many years into the future for them to become widespread, maybe 50-100 years before 90% of road traffic is fully-automated.


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## Drago (5 Jul 2018)

It's not just lack of attention, it's downright lunacy in many cases. Remember the craze of the 90s where a roundabout wasn't a device to send you in the desired direction, but a chance to use the wrong lane as an overtaking opportunity? Well it's back with a vengeance.


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## Levo-Lon (5 Jul 2018)

I do a 10 mile drive to work if im not cycling " only 7 on the bike"
As i do the same journey every day i see the same 4 things every morning .

Why cant people do the Merge in turn thing?
Use a roundabout?
Stop at red lights?
Enter a duel carriageway properly?.

Its easy enough but the " its my road mentality " seems strong once people get in a car.

I wouldn't ride a motorcycle to work .


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## NorthernDave (5 Jul 2018)

Drago said:


> It's not just lack of attention, it's downright lunacy in many cases. Remember the craze of the 90s where a roundabout wasn't a device to send you in the desired direction, but a chance to use the wrong lane as an overtaking opportunity? Well it's back with a vengeance.



Without a doubt, a significant minority now feel entitled to use any lane to go round a roundabout if it's quicker for them. I see this virtually every day now.


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## Drago (5 Jul 2018)

I know the very stretch or road where that happened - lack of experience can hardly be blamed for her being on the wrong side of the carriageway - day 1 , lesson one, sentence one, "OK, we drive on the left here in the UK..."


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## kingrollo (5 Jul 2018)

More white van drivers - who sometimes get 30p per parcel - they need to drive fast to make a living. 
Like wise the growth of DIY taxis - and more worryingly the growth of Fake taxis.

We have created a society where everyone is encouraged to live life at 100mph - 24/7 

The first question my colleagues ask when I cycle to and from work 'But how long does that take you' - I tell them they are missing the point.


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## mjr (5 Jul 2018)

gbb said:


> Off the motorway...red light jumpers are now so common you'd be suicidal NOT to assume because the lights have turned green in your favour that at least one, often two cars will still blunder on through the just turned red.


That's been the situation in King's Lynn pretty much forever. Lots of traffic lights here (used to be 13 sets in the 2 miles before my old home) and few traffic police, so it would be surprising if I ever drove through on just-amber and didn't have at least two cars follow me. As I mentioned elsewhere, the last year or so, I've seen some motorists treating red lights as a sort of give-way where they merely slow right down, creep across the stop line (usually blocking any pelican/toucan/puffin crossing), check if another motorist can hit them before they clear the junction and then boot the accelerator if not. RLJ and yellow box cameras would be very profitable but we don't have any AFAIK.

For now, when cycling through traffic lights, please check that either all conflicting lanes are blocked by vehicles or that nothing's approaching fast enough to hit you before you ride out, even on green. It probably annoys following drivers but the ones who queue behind you seem less likely to hit you than RLJers.


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## mjr (5 Jul 2018)

NorthernDave said:


> Without a doubt, a significant minority now feel entitled to use any lane to go round a roundabout if it's quicker for them. I see this virtually every day now.


One of the few IMO-dodgy bits of advice one of my driving instructors gave me was that the lane markings are advisory and to use any lane I thought best. There's a grain of truth in there, not to rely on them and especially not to rely on other road users following the markings, but it's not solid good advice.

Norfolk is currently reeling from the shock of the Norwich Northern Distributor Road (NDR aka Not Driving Round aka Broadland Northway aka A1270 or so) being among the first roads built here having only current standard roundabout shapes, more or less (I've read accusations about minor errors in the road markings), instead of the usual roundabouts with too-small islands that you can easily cut lanes on, and the result seems to be quite a few drivers crashing into the central islands from what looks like excessive speed on entry. Most drivers seem to be blaming the roundabout designs...


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## mjr (5 Jul 2018)

meta lon said:


> Enter a duel carriageway properly?.


Duel, eh? Paging Dr Freud...


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## mjr (5 Jul 2018)

kingrollo said:


> The first question my colleagues ask when I cycle to and from work 'But how long does that take you' - I tell them they are missing the point.


About the same time as a car around here. Quicker if your car would be on the road with today's crash of the day.


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## groundy74 (5 Jul 2018)

I was hit by a car on a roundabout when I had right of way, pulled out in front of me and despite my best efforts I hit the back of his car and was thrown from the bike. He was the other side of the roundabout before he stopped. Luckily I only had minor injuries but was pretty shook up.

Best advice I had from the lad in the bike shop who looked over my bike for me was treat everything on the road as if its trying to kill you!!

Even when I have right of way I now slow slightly just to be certain there's nothing coming. It shouldn't be that way but things are only going to get worse with poor road systems, shocking public transport and more than ever cars on the road.

Wont stop me cycling though


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## jefmcg (5 Jul 2018)

I like Skol said:


> HUA?



View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuYUzjNiZqk


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## Cycleops (5 Jul 2018)

And now it seems more people are taking drugs and getting into a car without Any forethought. This woman was jailed after mowing down a cyclist and leaving him with life changing injuries;
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ove-kids-home-six-times-drug-drive-limit.html


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## Bollo (5 Jul 2018)

Here are some statistics to be going on with. Yes, you can argue about measurement protocols, underreporting or data sources, but this is about as close as you'll get to a robust survey and is certainly a step up from "it's forners an druggies, innit".

https://assets.publishing.service.g...ta/file/686969/pedal-cycle-factsheet-2017.pdf


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## Nigel-YZ1 (5 Jul 2018)

Mobile phone use is up massively in my area. Barnsley is chronic for the 'guilty eyes' to the lap in all slow moving traffic.

In general I think a new layer of cruelty is developing. It's a 'me first', 'I'm bigger' sort of thing.
As well as on the bike, I drive a small car and the tailgating, cutting up and head-on incidents are chronic.
On sunday I was passing parked cars with no gaps to pull in, but the SUV driver coming the other way, on seeing me from over 100m away decided to drive head on at speed rather than just lift off and let me clear the last two cars. I'd already started braking, he hit the kerb.
Cars coming the other way where their side is blocked are more likely to try and move over to reserve your side of the road.

There's no fear of being caught. They now know there are no police available for traffic.


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## Cycleops (5 Jul 2018)

Bollo said:


> Here are some statistics to be going on with. Yes, you can argue about measurement protocols, underreporting or data sources, but this is about as close as you'll get to a robust survey and is certainly a step up from "it's forners an druggies, innit".
> 
> https://assets.publishing.service.g...ta/file/686969/pedal-cycle-factsheet-2017.pdf


Of course you can look at statistics like that as you so cleverly point out but they don't tell you about why they are being committed and what are the causes.
The OP asks 'what is going on' and your survey doesn't tell us that, only the figures.


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## classic33 (5 Jul 2018)

mjr said:


> That's been the situation in King's Lynn pretty much forever. Lots of traffic lights here (used to be 13 sets in the 2 miles before my old home) and few traffic police, so it would be surprising if* I ever drove through on just-amber *and didn't have at least two cars follow me. As I mentioned elsewhere, the last year or so, I've seen some motorists treating red lights as a sort of give-way where they merely slow right down, creep across the stop line (usually blocking any pelican/toucan/puffin crossing), check if another motorist can hit them before they clear the junction and then boot the accelerator if not. RLJ and yellow box cameras would be very profitable but we don't have any AFAIK.
> 
> For now, when cycling through traffic lights, please check that either all conflicting lanes are blocked by vehicles or that nothing's approaching fast enough to hit you before you ride out, even on green. It probably annoys following drivers but the ones who queue behind you seem less likely to hit you than RLJers.


Thought that amber meant stop.


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## screenman (5 Jul 2018)

Most of us on here are motorists.


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## gbb (5 Jul 2018)

classic33 said:


> Thought that amber meant stop.


Copy and pasted from HC
AMBER means ‘Stop’ at the stop line. You may go on only if the AMBER appears after you have crossed the stop line or are so close to it that to pull up might cause an accident

And thats often the case, you're approaching on green, then it turns amber If youve already passed the stop line, then proceed OR you can proceed if you were very close to the stop line and stopping suddenly could cause an accident.


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## Nigel-YZ1 (5 Jul 2018)

These days you have to wait at green for a few seconds for the red light runners to clear the junctions. Amber is seen by many as the 'floor it' signal.


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## classic33 (5 Jul 2018)

Nigel-YZ1 said:


> These days you have to wait at green for a few seconds for the red light runners to clear the junctions. Amber is seen by many as the 'floor it' signal.


The "Amber Gambler" returns.


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## Bollo (5 Jul 2018)

Cycleops said:


> Of course you can look at statistics like that as you so cleverly point out but they don't tell you about why they are being committed and what are the causes.
> The OP asks 'what is going on' and your survey doesn't tell us that, only the figures.


And we have a winner!

I've got every sympathy with Skolly, but he actually asks....



I like Skol said:


> Please tell me I am just experiencing a hiccup and in reality things are no worse than they were 10-15 yrs ago.......



And I've answered his question directly by providing evidence over a 10-15 period that the risks have, for the cycling population as a whole, reduced.



I like Skol said:


> Please tell me I am just experiencing a hiccup


is therefore the likely explanation, so coming up with explanations for why something is getting worse when best evidence says it's not actually getting worse seems a bit futile.


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## Crankarm (5 Jul 2018)

The amended Highway Code could have some thing to do with it. Rule 160 (g) - might is right.


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## Drago (5 Jul 2018)

Oh dear, have we really resorted to quoting the DoT as a credible source now?


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## I like Skol (5 Jul 2018)

Bollo said:


> Here are some statistics to be going on with. Yes, you can argue about measurement protocols, underreporting or data sources, but this is about as close as you'll get to a robust survey and is certainly a step up from "it's forners an druggies, innit".
> 
> https://assets.publishing.service.g...ta/file/686969/pedal-cycle-factsheet-2017.pdf


 A useful report, but annoyingly from a skim through appears to be missing the stats that actually matter.






This chart shows a steady decrease in deaths and incidents since the early 1980s until around 10yrs ago when slight & serious incidents began to rise. This may not be a relevant increase as the amount on cycling (traffic) appears to rise too, although this line does hint at a worrying trend....






So from this data what can we conclude? Unless I am mistaken, the death/incident data is taken from a change in the 'actual' occurrence figures rather than the rate of events? This makes the data difficult to evaluate as it appears to be set against a varying level of 'traffic' whether this be miles ridden or hours spent riding?

A more useful figure, and one that may be more indicative of an individuals actual risk, would be the deaths/incidents per mile or hour. This is used here, but only for a single defined period rather than year on year....






Fortunately, the data I want does appear to be included in the report and when I have some spare time later I am going to mess around graphing it in a way that might help reveal if things are getting better/worse for an individual cyclist.


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## I like Skol (5 Jul 2018)

Drago said:


> Oh dear, have we really resorted to quoting the DoT as a credible source now?


Have you got any better sources?


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## Bollo (5 Jul 2018)

I like Skol said:


> A useful report, but annoyingly from a skim through appears to be missing the stats that actually matter.
> 
> View attachment 417821
> 
> ...


Please don’t think I was having a pop at you @I like Skol and I’ll confess I just gave it a quick read through before heading out for a (perfectly agreeable) ride. My grizzle was aimed more at some of the more unpleasant prejudices rearing their heads upthread with zero actual evidence.

Ive had two collisions in ten years, with the one last year by far the more serious. But on the whole I feel as though the driving, locally at least, is improving around cyclists. That’s my own perception and I could understand how different regions, experiences, riding habits and biases could change that perception.


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## Drago (5 Jul 2018)

I like Skol said:


> Have you got any better sources?



Not in the cheek where my tongue was, no.


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## I like Skol (5 Jul 2018)

Drago said:


> Not in the cheek where my tongue was, no.


I didn't think so


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## Brandane (5 Jul 2018)

To sum up - the reason why driving standards is getting worse is because Britain (in particular) and the world (in general) is now populated by a shower of self obsessed, ignorant, selfish pratts. "I'm in a hurry, and I'm more important than you" seems to be the general attitude. It's not just in driving, either, sadly.


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## screenman (5 Jul 2018)

Brandane said:


> To sum up - the reason why driving standards is getting worse is because Britain (in particular) and the world (in general) is now populated by a shower of self obsessed, ignorant, selfish pratts. "I'm in a hurry, and I'm more important than you" seems to be the general attitude. It's not just in driving, either, sadly.



Does that stand for all of us on here? I suppose it must do.


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## Brandane (5 Jul 2018)

screenman said:


> Does that stand for all of us on here? I suppose it must do.


Not all; but since the membership on here comes from the general population, then there are bound to be some. I've certainly seen posts which give that impression.


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## boydj (5 Jul 2018)

I have to say that I notice poor driving much more when I'm in my car than when I'm on the bike. The general standard of driving is poor, with speeding and tailgating a particular problem.

But, it's my impression that driving around cyclists has definitely improved since I first started commuting regularly by bike about 15 years ago. I know that some of that is down to me cycling more assertively and controlling my road space more effectively as I gained experience, but I also think that there are more cyclists about and drivers have learned how to drive round them. That's not to say there are still plenty of incompetents and bullies driving around and I'll usually see a handful of them every week.


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## SkipdiverJohn (5 Jul 2018)

User said:


> Got any evidence to back that up? Or is this just a general bigoted post?
> 
> What next? ‘They’ all look the same?



I know of two different incidents where it was being done on an organised basis, with "ringers" being submitted to sit the test in place of the real candidate in return for money. A large number of illicit "drivers" were put through the system and there were prosecutions of those involved.
Remember, half of these "drivers" originate from places where corruption in public life is the norm, so they probably won't have ever passed a legit driving test* anywhere,* just paid backhanders to obtain a licence. 
You only have to go to certain towns, to witness that the standard of driving is simply not compatible to anywhere with a properly regulated licencing system. There's loads of people who are only on the road in the UK because fraud is being committed and licences are being bought by those whose driving is too terrible to ever pass a real test themselves.


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## Ming the Merciless (5 Jul 2018)

Drago said:


> Not in the cheek where my tongue was, no.



Arse


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## Drago (5 Jul 2018)

I've come across half a dozen of so blokes using the same licence. You'd have thought they'd have rigged the photo might cause a problem when a copper asked to see the licence, but apparently they didn't. One of them, and not the actual legit owner of the licence, even managed to get a private hire licence.


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## Drago (5 Jul 2018)

Croydon?


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## Pat "5mph" (6 Jul 2018)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> I know of two different incidents where it was being done on an organised basis, with "ringers" being submitted to sit the test in place of the real candidate in return for money. A large number of illicit "drivers" were put through the system and there were prosecutions of those involved.
> Remember, half of these "drivers" originate from places where corruption in public life is the norm, so they probably won't have ever passed a legit driving test* anywhere,* just paid backhanders to obtain a licence.
> You only have to go to certain towns, to witness that the standard of driving is simply not compatible to anywhere with a properly regulated licencing system. There's loads of people who are only on the road in the UK because fraud is being committed and licences are being bought by those whose driving is too terrible to ever pass a real test themselves.





Drago said:


> I've come across half a dozen of so blokes using the same licence. You'd have thought they'd have rigged the photo might cause a problem when a copper asked to see the licence, but apparently they didn't. One of them, and not the actual legit owner of the licence, even managed to get a private hire licence.





User said:


> So who are these drivers then? Where does the half that you suggest “originate from places where corruption in public life is the norm, so they probably won't have ever passed a legit driving test* anywhere,* just paid backhanders to obtain a licence“ come from?



Yes @SkipdiverJohn no doubt there are instances in the UK of fake driving licences, obtained with the gift of a bottle or two
I really doubt though that the practice is so widespread in the UK that those drivers are everywhere, trying to run us cyclist over at every turn.
Most instances, imo, are pure incompetence, or a sense of self entitlement, or mobile phone use while driving or a combination of all of those.

@Drago, what Police?? Where is it? On the bikes along the canal patrolling the drunks, ok, fair, but who's going to stop WVMan or Taxi Man speeding in a 20mph zone, beeping me off the road?
I love seeing the Police about, sadly, there are not enough of them.

@User you don't have to go to another continent to find fake licences: I come from Italy, yes, you could buy a driving licence there if you have the connections and the money.
Yes, there are _some_ foreigner drivers in the UK that drive on an invalid (for the UK) licence, _some _of them even drive better than if they had passed a test here, but, still, their licence is invalid.
To be clear, I refer to Italians, Cypriots, various Europeans, that I have met and had admitted to me of never passing a UK driving test.
Yes, some of them _could _have obtained their original licence by bribery, or not have one at all.
All in all, I would guess, they are a minuscule part of the overall amount of drivers, I don't think we can consider them the cause of widespread bad driving.


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## Drago (6 Jul 2018)

Aye Miss Pat, when I were in the dibble. Maybe 2005 or so. Pure and utter chance. I wrote 2 x producers for different drivers a few days apart, and each produced the same licence. They might have got away with it but by a further stroke of luck they each produced the licence to the same eagle eyed front desk clerk within a day or two of each other. The clerk noticed as she filled in the book that the driver number was identical to the one above, and blew the whistle. A manual check of records going back a while found 6 or 7 different people had produced it over the course of the year, and one of those was a private hire driver. Doubtless there were others who never got stopped at the roadside, so never got their collars felt for deception plus motoring offences.

I doubt they'd get away with it very long now with computerised records at cop shops.


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## Drago (6 Jul 2018)

They were all blokes. Some had moustaches. Different heights. It's fair to say none of them were called Dave, Keith or Brian.

In fact, let's not beat about the bush, they were all foreign chaps, but I don't suppose for a moment that had anything to do with their propensity for criminality. Im quite sure that British folk have pulled the same wheeze and gotten away with it.


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## swansonj (6 Jul 2018)

Drago said:


> Aye Miss Pat, when I were in the dibble. Maybe 2005 or so. Pure and utter chance. I wrote 2 x producers for different drivers a few days apart, and each produced the same licence. They might have got away with it but by a further stroke of luck they each produced the licence to the same eagle eyed front desk clerk within a day or two of each other. The clerk noticed as she filled in the book that the driver number was identical to the one above, and blew the whistle. A manual check of records going back a while found 6 or 7 different people had produced it over the course of the year, and one of those was a private hire driver. Doubtless there were others who never got stopped at the roadside, so never got their collars felt for deception plus motoring offences.
> 
> I doubt they'd get away with it very long now with computerised records at cop shops.


Why were you giving them producers?

Would I be correct in guessing that there was something dodgy going on? In other words, their criminality was not confined to the licence issue?

That’s quite important, otherwise someone might go away with the idea that people stopped *randomly* are quite likely to be involved in licence impersonation.


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## Drago (6 Jul 2018)

They weren't stopped randomly. There were stopped for moving traffic offences - a person engaged in criminal behaviour is also less likely to obey other minor reghlations, such as road traffic laws. They cant help themselves.

I recall one had sparks coming from his front brakes (I'm guessing his pads were worn metal to metal), whichnisnt so thing you forget. I was fresh from traffic then, so got the RPU skipper down to issue a prohibition notice and gave the driver a producer. I don't recall what the other one was, but it would have been a moving traffic offence, or suspicion of an MTO, and I never exercised my power simply to inspect documents - so many blatant offences going on there was never any need.

I don't know about the extent of their criminality, because once the deception came to light CID had it, so I only got odd details here and there.


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## Pat "5mph" (6 Jul 2018)

Drago said:


> Im quite sure that British folk have pulled the same wheeze and gotten away with it.


Oh yes.
I have to check ID at work for underage drinking, there are fake provisional/full licences about.
Even the legit ones, sometimes the picture could be anybody.
Anyway, driving under the influence, not so widespread anymore, but still out there.
I cycle to work during the festive period, have seen some scary driving.


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## Arjimlad (6 Jul 2018)

My purely guessed perception is that the increased amount of distractions is the principal problem at the moment.

I am probably more addicted to looking at my phone than is good for me but not when driving or cycling. I've noticed some men shaving in their cars on the commute - gawping & gurning into their mirrors rather than watching the road. The number of distracted phone users is frequently over 10% in a line of slow moving traffic. We're growing less & less used to paying full attention to one thing as life throws so many distractions at us. Butterfly minded is becoming the norm.


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## I like Skol (6 Jul 2018)

Arjimlad said:


> My purely guessed perception is that the increased amount of distractions is the principal problem at the moment.
> 
> I am probably more addicted to looking at my phone than is good for me but not when driving or cycling. I've noticed some men shaving in their cars on the commute - gawping & gurning into their mirrors rather than watching the road. The number of distracted phone users is frequently over 10% in a line of slow moving traffic. We're growing less & less used to paying full attention to one thing as life throws so many distractions at us. Butterfly minded is becoming the norm.


^^^^This is my suspicion. People are becoming increasingly distracted by technology and just can't help themselves anymore. Modern cars are even building this in now with interactive touch screen interfaces slap bang in the middle of the dash, right at the edge of the line of sight, encouraging drivers to take their eyes off the road and do something else besides driving. This is also coupled with an increasing inability to concentrate on anything for any length of time.
If I were in charge, cars wouldn't have any screen bigger than a digital clock and would include a built-in Faraday type cage to prevent the operation of phones while inside the vehicle. Perhaps people would be able to focus on driving then?


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## Arjimlad (6 Jul 2018)

I was informed that the latest model Honda CR-V (we have a 2016 version) has absolutely everything on a touch screen.

You can't operate the heater control by turning a dial - the screen alone is used.


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## I like Skol (6 Jul 2018)

OK, here is my number crunching results. I haven't done all the graphing yet so don't know what this is going to reveal in terms of improvement/reduction in cycling safety for the individual.

Points to note;

I assume the data is reliable and that some normalising has been done to account for any differences in the way figures have been collected/reported over the years.
Notice the big gaps in reporting prior to the annual figures from the year 2000 going forwards.
I may be interpreting the data wrongly. I am taking the deaths/serious incident/minor incident figures as total counts for events that year. I am taking the traffic value as a total estimated distance ridden by all cyclists that year (in billions of miles).
My graphs purely show the number of incident type divided by the total cycle miles reported to give a figure that represents a typical cyclists chance of experiencing that type of incident per mile, year on year. If you cycle a lot then your chance of suffering an incident increases with exposure to the risk.

First, chance of being killed in an accident while riding a bicycle.







That looks pretty good? A steady reduction in risk over time, apart from a rough patch in the mid 00's. If my data analysis is right you could realistically claim that in 2016 your chance of being killed while cycling were the lowest ever in the duration of the data set.

Next, serious incidents. Let's not forget, although this is not a death it can and will likely include many people who receive life changing injuries including near total paralysis or brain damage, either of which could see them needing care for the rest of their lives!






Now that doesn't look so good. A decline during the 80's & 90's reaching a low point during the mid 00's (strangely just when the occurrence of deaths appeared to increase?) but since then an increase of approx 20-25% to when the data finishes in 2016. Could this indicate that the reduction in deaths is not due to fewer serious accidents but may be due to improvements in emergency medical response and treatment?

Finally, let's look at minor incidents. I don't know what they classify as a minor/slight injury incident but I guess it would be anything that requires a hospital attendance but a walk-out within a few hours?






What does that tell us? A general steady decline in the number of minor incidents (what happened in 1995 I wonder?)

To summarise the above info, You have less chance than ever of being killed (possibly due to treatment advances).Your chance of receiving serious injuries have increased since the start of the century by a considerable amount, approx 20%. Minor incidents have been fairly consistent this century but dipped in the latest figures available.

Now, a final way of looking at this is to consider it this way. What are my chances of being knocked off? Never mind the resulting injuries. When I head out on my bike what is the likelihood of me having a coming together with a vehicle? To look at this I need to re-crunch the data, lumping deaths, serious and minor figures together then dividing the total by the 'traffic' number...……. I'll be right back.


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## steve292 (6 Jul 2018)

.


I like Skol said:


> . Could this indicate that the reduction in deaths is not due to fewer serious accidents but may be due to improvements in emergency medical response and treatment?


That's bang on I think. If the medical people get to you quick enough, so much more is known about the first up treatment of trauma. I seem to recollect that the main source of this knowledge comes from Afghanistan, and the frontline treatment of service personnel at Camp 
Bastion.


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## I like Skol (6 Jul 2018)

No massive shift since the year 2000. My spidey senses are tingling! Why the apparent step change around the start of the century? I would hazard a guess that there was actually a change in the way the data was recorded or reported at that time.

This last graph suggests there has been no real movement in the risk of injury since the start of the century. The general feeling among cyclists is that things are getting worse so how can there be this disparity between perception and the figures? Maybe the graph of serious incidents gives us a clue. Maybe the type of behaviour that scares us the most is also the same behaviour that results in the serious injuries. The fast close passes, entering roundabouts at speed without checking properly, simply driving into cyclists while fiddling with phones and in car systems, etc. These are the things that hospitalise us with multiple, serious injuries. Perhaps the other type of incidents are just going on the same as they always have, pedestrians stepping out, cars pulling out of side roads, dooring incidents, left hooks etc. The things that happen at low speed and result in injury, but of a less significant seriousness?

Maybe we are being worried by an increase in a particular type of behaviour? Maybe we feel the vulnerability of being a soft human in proximity to a volume of traffic that in general are performing a noticeably increased number of fast, stupid manoeuvres?


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## glasgowcyclist (6 Jul 2018)

I like Skol said:


> The general feeling among cyclists is that things are getting worse so how can there be this disparity between perception and the figures?



Another maybe: maybe our perception is compounded by the awareness of others with similar experiences?


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## I like Skol (6 Jul 2018)

I like Skol said:


> Points to note;
> 
> I assume the data is reliable and that some normalising has been done to account for any differences in the way figures have been collected/reported over the years.





User said:


> How have you taken account of changes in recording?


I haven't, see the above assumption, but I have considered it is a possibility.


glasgowcyclist said:


> Another maybe: maybe our perception is compounded by the awareness of others with similar experiences?


Maybe. But I am pretty sure my perception is based on my own experience of an unchanging set route over an 8-9yr period. I used to think that all the people moaning about incidents were doing something wrong because it just wasn't being realised in my own case. Then approx. 2 yrs ago I began to think things were going wrong, stuff was happening and drivers seem to just give up caring anymore. Even in the weeks immediately before my serious accident earlier this year I had a rash of close calls that made me wonder 'WTF is wrong with these people? They have their eyes open but they are just not seeing!'

But that is just my perception, which is why I am seeking some confirmation or otherwise in official figures.


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## Brandane (6 Jul 2018)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Another maybe: maybe our perception is compounded by the awareness of others with similar experiences?


Aye; too many people reading horror stories on cycling forums about accidents involving cyclists. 
I'm only being slightly facetious here. Reading some of the threads on this forum has certainly made me think more about how and where I cycle, which might not be a bad thing. But for less confident road users, it might be enough to put them off cycling altogether.


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## Pat "5mph" (6 Jul 2018)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Another maybe: maybe our perception is compounded by the awareness of others with similar experiences?





Brandane said:


> I'm only being slightly facetious here. Reading some of the threads on this forum has certainly made me think more about how and where I cycle, which might not be a bad thing. But for less confident road users, it might be enough to put them off cycling altogether.



Agree.
When I first considered cycling to work, I was idly researching "cycling in Glasgow".
Magnatom's YouTube videos came up: I almost did not start cycling!
Fortunately I am one to try out stuff for myself before saying it's not for me.


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## fossyant (6 Jul 2018)

I like Skol said:


> Not sure where to post this but it needs discussing and I need to get it off my chest!
> 
> I was knocked off my bike in February by a driver rushing and not watching where he was going. Result was a broken neck and fractured skull. Just getting back on my bike in the last two weeks as my condition has improved.
> 
> ...




Hmm, you know my opinion. It's a mare out there. I get cut up even in a big old saloon, by cars costing 40x more then mine. It's just madness. Seriously tempted by a fark off Navara (changed my mind from a Ranger as the suspension is pants) pick up, with big bars, and a 'cyclists stay awesome' sticker on the back.


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## fossyant (6 Jul 2018)

alicat said:


> Cars are much more automated than they used to be so drivers think they can multi-task.
> 
> The increase in automation in cars (lights/windscreen wipers, straying out of lane, getting to close to a car in front) coupled with a smart phone obsession is reducing some people's attention spans and also encouraging them to multitask to the detriment of their driving. Even if they are not actually on their phones when driving, they are not really present and concentrating on the job in hand any more.



I've been wiped out twice by non-automated cars - little ones, i.e. little Fiat and an Aygo - the big cars aren't an issue.


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## fossyant (6 Jul 2018)

Bollo said:


> And we have a winner!
> 
> I've got every sympathy with Skolly, but he actually asks....
> 
> ...



Really, not my experience in Manchester. It's fine in the suburbs, but hit any main run into the centre, you are mince meat. Been riding roads for 30 years, no more.

Off road now - really prefer falling off every ride on the MTB to getting hit by a car again.


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## Ian H (6 Jul 2018)

Riding my 600 over Wednesday and Thursday (organiser's check ride for this weekend's event), I encountered weekday and rush hour traffic at times. 

There were a few close passes (either elderly creep past or personalised reg arrogant). Nothing more than irritating. 

One driver tried to overtake towards a pinch point, but had to give up when it was clear I wasn't giving way. 

One youngish driver kept coming out on a roundabout, while looking straight at me, until he realised that I wasn't going to stop, whereupon he relunctantly stopped to let me exit.

I find a certain degree of assertiveness helps enormously; and also cycling defensively. But obviously you will never make cycling risk-free.


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## Drago (6 Jul 2018)

I have a personalised reg!


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## jefmcg (6 Jul 2018)

Drago said:


> I have a personalised reg!


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## Drago (6 Jul 2018)

Thankyou. It's actually Mrs D's. I bought it for her 30th Birthday, but now she has a motability car ots an utter ballache to get it on the vehicle. Therefore, I was stuck with the choice of placing it on retention for £80 a year, or stick it on my car for as long as I wanted for free. Twas a £2k plate, probably worth more now, so I'm not letting it go.

Having said that, since it went on I ha e felt the urge to close pass and generally cut up cyclists.


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## cosmicbike (6 Jul 2018)

Drago said:


> I have a personalised reg!


I do hope you have the characters spaced incorrectly too, so it looks like it says something, at least to the owner. Most I see are meaningless.

Latest thing locally seems to be front reg plates in the windscreen, typically on Audi's with massive front grills.


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## Ian H (6 Jul 2018)

Drago said:


> I have a personalised reg!



I notice personalised registrations when they do something stupid, which doesn't make for a scientific study of the proclivities of all of them. Certainly an old (and regrettably late) friend of mine had a very distinctive number plate and, indicative of how he drove, a brass tortoise mascot on the bonnet.


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## Brandane (6 Jul 2018)

cosmicbike said:


> Latest thing locally seems to be front reg plates in the windscreen, typically on Audi's with massive front grills.


Noticed a lot of that up here recently too, and was wondering what it's all about (and why the few remaining Police haven't jumped on the offenders). Is it code for something, or just another supposedly "cool" fad?


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## Drago (6 Jul 2018)

cosmicbike said:


> I do hope you have the characters spaced incorrectly too, so it looks like it says something, at least to the owner. Most I see are meaningless.
> 
> Latest thing locally seems to be front reg plates in the windscreen, typically on Audi's with massive front grills.



Fortunately it's spells K155 and Mrs D's first name without any spacing silliness. I'd be a hopeless Audi owner.


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## I like Skol (6 Jul 2018)

I have done the private (mis-spaced ) reg thing in the past but feel it was a justified excursion for one of my competition toys and not just a personal ego trip.....

J33P DP which should have read J 33 PDP

View attachment 279039


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## jefmcg (6 Jul 2018)

cosmicbike said:


> Most I see are meaningless.


Aside: why are they so inscrutable? They used to be in Australia too, but they changed the law to allow any non-obscene combination of 6 letters and numbers 30 years ago, which lead to delightful examples like FIZZIO and a lawyer friend of my mum: _LITIG8_. Then there was the persistent rumour that _6UL DV8_ had been nearly approved before they realised But my personal favourite was the self aware, red, mid-market Japanese sports car that I often parked beside, _FACILE_. I later sadly found out that the owners were not self aware, but Italian. In Italian, facile (fa-chilly) means smoothly done, with ease. They weren't self aware at all, but they made a great toasted foccacia, so I was ok with that.

@I like Skol, I hope you forgive the brief divergence.


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## Drago (7 Jul 2018)

I think in future I'll simply change my name by deed poll to match any future car I might buy. Much cheaper.


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## jefmcg (7 Jul 2018)

Drago said:


> I think in future I'll simply change my name by deed poll to match any future car I might buy. Much cheaper.


So let us get this right: in this case you would change your name to kiss + your wife's first name? 

You should totally do that. It wouldn't be weird at all.


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## toffee (7 Jul 2018)

Must be the World Cup. 
Had a few close passes in the last few days. Had my first SMIDSY from a driver in a local council van as he came up to a mini roundabout. Except he missed the Sorry bit off the exchange of words.


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## NorthernDave (7 Jul 2018)

Brandane said:


> Noticed a lot of that up here recently too, and was wondering what it's all about (and why the few remaining Police haven't jumped on the offenders). Is it code for something, or just another supposedly "cool" fad?



Quite possibly an attempt to mask at least part of the plate from the static ANPR and speed cameras that are meant to have replaced the roads police..?

Although the car drivers may well claim that the sticky pads holding the plate on have just come unstuck in the hot weather and they're on the way to Halfords to buy some more right now, officer...


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## jarlrmai (11 Jul 2018)

I like Skol said:


> I have done the private (mis-spaced ) reg thing in the past but feel it was a justified excursion for one of my competition toys and not just a personal ego trip.....
> 
> J33P DP which should have read J 33 PDP
> 
> View attachment 279039


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## DCBassman (16 Jul 2018)

The biggest single problem is that driving students are taught to pass a test, not how to drive. While I would be the last person to claim I was anything special as a driver, I was taught, intensively, with exams where the pass mark was 100% or do it again, in the military. And although it still doesn't remove idiots fron behind the wheel, it does leave them with little excuse.


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## Nigel-YZ1 (16 Jul 2018)

Those same ANPR cameras that can't read the egoplate for traffic offences also won't read it if the vehicle is stolen and the owner expects someone to help them find it.

Edit#1: Of course I can have this point of view as N1GEL is far outside the range of my wallet nowadays.


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## Drago (16 Jul 2018)

ANPR can read all but the most ridiculous fonts and spacing, and most systems work at night now as well.


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## Nigel-YZ1 (16 Jul 2018)

Spent a few lovely (and a few virus ridden) days around Ashbourne last week. If it was an Audi or a large SUV it was a tailgater or speeder.
I think they're frustrated at the blanket 50mph speed limits and lack of motorways.

In the end I was more pissed off last week at people that can't wash their hands in toilets.


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## Serge (16 Jul 2018)

Nigel-YZ1 said:


> Spent a few lovely (and a few virus ridden) days around Ashbourne last week. If it was an Audi or a large SUV it was a tailgater or speeder.
> I think they're frustrated at the blanket 50mph speed limits and lack of motorways.
> 
> In the end I was more pissed off last week at people that can't wash their hands in toilets.


I prefer to use the sink.


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## Drago (16 Jul 2018)

I pray for the day that GPS regulated speed limiters become mandatory. Even the smallest cars can nudge the ton , which is preposterous when measured against the pollution and danger of motor vehicle travel.


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## NorthernDave (16 Jul 2018)

Drago said:


> ANPR can read all but the most ridiculous fonts and spacing, and most systems work at night now as well.



As I'm sure you know, static ANPR only works if the driver of the car has bothered to register it with their details.
If that hasn't been done, ANPR is in the same league as chocolate teapots in terms of usefulness.

The car mounted ANPR cameras at least give a theoretical chance of getting caught, provided the crew have the time / can be arsed or are allowed to engage in a pursuit.



Drago said:


> I pray for the day that GPS regulated speed limiters become mandatory. Even the smallest cars can nudge the ton , which is preposterous when measured against the pollution and danger of motor vehicle travel.



That's not the answer - once the car "knows the speed limit" we'll almost certainly find all sorts of idiots driving round at the limit regardless of conditions.


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## Drago (16 Jul 2018)

NorthernDave said:


> As I'm sure you know, static ANPR only works if the driver of the car has bothered to register it with their details.
> If that hasn't been done, ANPR is in the same league as chocolate teapots in terms of usefulness.
> 
> The car mounted ANPR cameras at least give a theoretical chance of getting caught, provided the crew have the time / can be arsed or are allowed to engage in a pursuit.
> ...



Indeed, it's not the entire answer, but universally being forced to obey the speed limit who,d be a refreshing and welcome start.

Static ANPR, if, council and public owned camera feeds that feed I to the police ANPR database, don't require the motorist to do anything.


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## swansonj (16 Jul 2018)

[QUOTE 5315549, member: 9609"]I wonder how barking mad it would become - on a 60 road there would be those who would choose to drive at 55, and there would be those that would have to overtake, and of course half way past, Mr 55 speeds up to 60, and Mr 60 who is now hung out on the wrong side of the road completely looses the plot and refuses to abort the overtake - round blind bends the lot. we would be seeing levels of road rage never previous encountered.[/QUOTE]
I think there’s a black box based solution that is more like the solution insurance companies offer younger drivers already. Don’t actually stop cars from breaking speed limits - but hit us in our pockets, hard, every time we break a speed limit, every time we accelerate more than some specified g’s forward or backward or round corners, etc. 

It needs a legally reliable map of speed limits. Then the next step that opens up is variable speed limits everywhere - lower in wet, lower after dark, lower in traffic, all indicated real time via the same legally valid gps-linked map.


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## Drago (16 Jul 2018)

They don't sell mains electricity with 50% more voltage than you can use,or tap water with 50% extra hydrogen atoms, so it seems daft, perhaps even reckless, that the governent allow the sale of motor vehicles that can travel well in excess of the speed limit.


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## screenman (16 Jul 2018)

Alcohol, I think kills more than cars.


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## jefmcg (16 Jul 2018)

Serge said:


> I prefer to use the sink.


Without trying to be 3 years old, I really could only read this as "washing one's hands in the toilet bowl".


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## Serge (16 Jul 2018)

jefmcg said:


> Without trying to be 3 years old, I really could only read this as "washing one's hands in the toilet bowl".


Great minds eh?


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## classic33 (16 Jul 2018)

Drago said:


> They don't sell mains electricity with 50% more voltage than you can use, *or tap water with 50% extra hydrogen atoms, *so it seems daft, perhaps even reckless, that the governent allow the sale of motor vehicles that can travel well in excess of the speed limit.


Hydrogen Water?


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## jarlrmai (17 Jul 2018)

It would be more like cigarette lighters that are also flamethrowers if you turn up the dial high enough.


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## Drago (17 Jul 2018)

classic33 said:


> Hydrogen Water?



An extra light, presumably diet, variety.


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## jarlrmai (17 Jul 2018)

Well there is heavy water which instead of hydrogen has deuterium which is a hydrogen isotope.


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## steve292 (18 Jul 2018)

A modern car has enough sensors fitted, feeding to various ECU units on the vehicle to allow for things like ABS, stability control and so on, that it would be easy to fit a black box recorder. If this was sealed and only accessable via some sort of control (court order?) in the event of a serious breach of the law or accident and used to prove who hit who/ how fast, did you brake/ take avoiding action. Couple that with stiff punishments and withdrawing licenses and it would only take a few cases to drastically reduce road crime.


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## NorthernDave (18 Jul 2018)

steve292 said:


> A modern car has enough sensors fitted, feeding to various ECU units on the vehicle to allow for things like ABS, stability control and so on, that it would be easy to fit a black box recorder. If this was sealed and only accessable via some sort of control (court order?) in the event of a serious breach of the law or accident and used to prove who hit who/ how fast, did you brake/ take avoiding action. Couple that with stiff punishments and withdrawing licenses and it would only take a few cases to drastically reduce road crime.



Some cars already do pretty much all that, and the manufacturers (the only people who can access the data) demand a court order before they'll pass it on to the police.
My understanding is that it is incredibly rare for this to happen.

On autonomous cars, the insurance company will have access to a restricted set of data from immediately prior to the collision to assist them in dealing with a claim.


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## screenman (18 Jul 2018)

Let us not forget there are something like a million uninsured vehicles on the roads, more and more hit and runs daily, rural drink driving off of the scale and the list continues, more police and the stopping of more vehicles is the way forward.


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## DRM (19 Jul 2018)

[QUOTE 5315549, member: 9609"]I wonder how barking mad it would become - on a 60 road there would be those who would choose to drive at 55, and there would be those that would have to overtake, and of course half way past, Mr 55 speeds up to 60, and Mr 60 who is now hung out on the wrong side of the road completely looses the plot and refuses to abort the overtake - round blind bends the lot. we would be seeing levels of road rage never previous encountered.[/QUOTE]

Its already like that, national speed limit on single carriageway is 50 mph for a van, or 60 mph on a dual carriageway, my work van has a tracker fitted so if I break the limit, the management know, instantly, it’s astounding how aggressively Audi’s, BMW’s etc tailgate you, thinking you’re doing it on purpose, well yes I am, not to annoy these clowns, but because it’s the law, it’s ignorance on their part, also the fact that in the last year I’ve only seen a handful of Police vehicles in around 12,000 miles of driving this year so far, the chances of being caught are slim to nil


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## Accy cyclist (21 Jul 2018)

screenman said:


> Let us not forget there are something like a million uninsured vehicles on the roads


I don't know how they get away with it. I thought there are cameras up all over roads these days,which means that if you pass one in an uninsured vehicle the authorities will come after you. Unless they just drive on roads where they know/think they aren't any cameras?


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## Drago (21 Jul 2018)

They have to have someone free to come get you.

On a busy road, ANPR will ping a dozen of more vehicles of jnterest a minute. No car tax (which the Fed's ignore because the DVLA are the enforcement authority), used in crime, firearms markers, R/O is wanted, no insurance, no MOT, stolen vehicle, false plates (multiple pings of the same plate hundreds of miles apart in too shot a space of time)....if every copper in the country were dedicated to the task and did nothing else but grab suspects identified by ANPR on only 10 roads, there's be no coppers left after a few hours.


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## User6179 (21 Jul 2018)

Accy cyclist said:


> I don't know how they get away with it. I thought there are cameras up all over roads these days,which means that if you pass one in an uninsured vehicle the authorities will come after you. Unless they just drive on roads where they know/think they aren't any cameras?



False plates, put on number plates of a car the same make and model you know is taxed, insured and has a mot, quite easy now that you can search online.


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## screenman (21 Jul 2018)

Accy cyclist said:


> I don't know how they get away with it. I thought there are cameras up all over roads these days,which means that if you pass one in an uninsured vehicle the authorities will come after you. Unless they just drive on roads where they know/think they aren't any cameras?



You think that the people driving uninsured have registered the car.


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## mustang1 (21 Jul 2018)

groundy74 said:


> I was hit by a car on a roundabout when I had right of way, pulled out in front of me and despite my best efforts I hit the back of his car and was thrown from the bike. He was the other side of the roundabout before he stopped. Luckily I only had minor injuries but was pretty shook up.
> 
> Best advice I had from the lad in the bike shop who looked over my bike for me was treat everything on the road as if its trying to kill you!!
> 
> ...



I thought this was normal. Whenever approaching a junction, a cluster of vehicles, or anything that could make someone do something extra silly, always slow down, regardless of who has priority at that point on the road.


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## Accy cyclist (21 Jul 2018)

screenman said:


> You think that the people driving uninsured have registered the car.


Now that you've pointed it out no,but that was just me being law abiding and naive about how criminals work.


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## Accy cyclist (21 Jul 2018)

Eddy said:


> False plates, put on number plates of a car the same make and model you know is taxed, insured and has a mot, quite easy now that you can search online.


Stop it,you're giving me ideas.


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## classic33 (21 Jul 2018)

screenman said:


> You think that the people driving uninsured have registered the car.


One local one belonged to a local councillor, until it was pointed out to them.

Told it was impossible for me to know if any vehicle was taxed/VED'd.

The other popular vehicle type round here is taxis.


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## Drago (21 Jul 2018)

classic33 said:


> One local one belonged to a local councillor, until it was pointed out to them.
> 
> Told it was impossible for me to know if any vehicle was taxed/VED'd.
> 
> The other popular vehicle type round here is taxis.



A bit like speed enforcement. When a group of residents get all righteous about people speeding through their area and form an action group, it's not unheard of for the chairman themselves to get nabbed speeding in the ensuing enforcement effort. It seems the typical motorist doesn't want folk speeding past their house, but is happy to speed last other people's houses themselves.


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## classic33 (21 Jul 2018)

Drago said:


> A bit like speed enforcement. When a group of residents get all righteous about people speeding through their area and form an action group, it's not unheard of for the chairman themselves to get nabbed speeding in the ensuing enforcement effort. It seems the typical motorist doesn't want folk speeding past their house, but is happy to speed last other people's houses themselves.


Caught at a Ward Meeting, after he'd said such information wasn't available to people like me.

Last MOT, 18 months previously failed due to no working rear lights. He was on the road safety panel for the council at the time.


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