# Riding rock gardens on a rigid



## ChrisEyles (30 Apr 2016)

Just got back from a fab morning's riding at Haldon forest - my first trip to a trail centre since I swapped out the (lame, broken) suspension fork for a rigid one. The bike/fork were fantastic for 99% of the time, and I'm really pleased with the switch. 

However... the rock gardens suddenly became a lot more "interesting" than they were before. My only tactic seems to be to go in with plenty of speed and hang on like grim death 'til I get to the other end (OK, I *try* to be as light on the bike as I can, but after the first jolt it all goes to pot). Didn't even have time to think about weighting/unweighting or front wheel lifts, and needless to say my eyeballs were juddering in my sockets the whole way! 

Anyone got any tips to make riding rock gardens more comfortable/controlled/pro-active?


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## Levo-Lon (30 Apr 2016)

Get a fs bike..
rock gardens are well bumpy..
you could try big high volume tyres..but check your frame will take 2.2 + tyres..ie continental trail kings are very big ..but should be ok on the front..and a mountain king rear..
see what tyres fit your bike and run them at lower pressures, if your at 40psi try 30


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## ChrisEyles (30 Apr 2016)

When the current tyres run out I'm definitely up-sizing (currently 2.1 front 1.95 rear), but it seems silly to switch out the current set until they're worn out. I think I probably have clearance for 2.4 front which might help a touch. I'm running 35-40psi at the moment - lower would help a bit I guess, but don't want to reduce it too much since the trails are pretty rocky and one of my riding buddies did suffer two pinch flats today. 

I can definitely believe rock gardens are more fun on a FS (I've never tried one out as of yet). I've ridden a borrowed HT 29er quite a bit (Charge Cooker, I think), and that obviously makes them a lot easier.... but on the whole I still far prefer my rigid 26er - even though I am probably a lot slower on it, it's somehow a lot more fun! 

I wonder, eere rock gardens not so much of a thing pre-suspension?


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## screenman (30 Apr 2016)

Fill your tyre with helium.


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## Kajjal (30 Apr 2016)

Difficult, its a combination of brute force or maintaining momentum as required. Sometimes going slow and using your strength to force the bike over obstacles is best, other time keep your speed up. Unlike on a fs line choice is very important.


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## screenman (30 Apr 2016)

Wear 5 pairs of padded shorts.


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## ChrisEyles (30 Apr 2016)

I've been finding it's usually best to go in with as much momentum as I dare, unweight the bike over the first bit, and then hang on and hope. On the odd occasion I've decided to slow down significantly mid-way, I've always had to walk to the end. Uphill rock gardens usually end this way too. 

Line choice is an interesting one. I've got used to micro-managing my line choice on the trail (in a way you just don't have to on a HT), but rock gardens have so many possible lines and hidden bumps it's tricky to pick an optimal line out when you're heading in at speed. Good point to work on next time though, thanks. 

Padded shorts? Haha, I'm guessing you've not done much rigid MTB riding - if I was staying in the saddle over these bits, I'd need more than five pairs to save my underneaths! Five pairs of mitts might not be a bad idea though, they'd go nicely with the helium tyres


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## Kajjal (30 Apr 2016)

Line choice on a rigid is a combination of learning by experience and how much pain you can put up with while keeping control of the bike  

In the early 1990's before mobile phones, gps etc. we got lost near Edale in the peak district on rigid mountain bikes. After hours we got back to the car and had numb hands locked in the gripping the handle bar position. A very different ride to the long travel fs bikes people use now.


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## pawl (30 Apr 2016)

Make sure the house who's rock garden you have decided to trash with your nobly tyres is not at home.


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## screenman (30 Apr 2016)

Been riding and racing hard tail for 28 years rigid for the first 5. You toughen up or the under carriage knows how to hide.


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## ChrisEyles (30 Apr 2016)

Yep, I had to uncurly my hands from their death grip around the bars at the end of the day's riding. Sounds like I'm not missing anything obvious at least, will get a few more under my belt and hopefully they'll get easier. 

@screenman - respect, racing full tilt on a rigid MTB must have been pretty hardcore.... looks like I have a lot of toughening up to do!


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## Levo-Lon (1 May 2016)

Rock garden.....

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=A36llHBQY4U


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## ufkacbln (1 May 2016)

meta lon said:


> Rock garden.....
> 
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=A36llHBQY4U



Don't see Alan Titchmarsh doing that!


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## ChrisEyles (1 May 2016)

meta lon said:


> Rock garden.....
> 
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=A36llHBQY4U



Holy sheeeeet! 

Mrs Chris's comment: "Those guys have a serious thrill seeking problem!". My version of "hardcore riding" looks a bit less impressive


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## Cumisky (2 May 2016)

My only working MTB these days is this.






Uphill rock gardens require finesse, good line choice and a fair bit of upper body strength.
Downhill, whilst needing all of the above is more dependent on unweighting with your body, committing to the descent and a prayer or two before launching off.
That said, I'm old enough to remember Steve Peat riding a rigid Kona and pretty much learnt to ride offroad before suspension was even dreamt about so, whilst I have never been that good a downhiller, I'm used to having my fillings shaken out so tend to descend without thinking too much about it, I imagine it is very different if one has grown up with suspension.
I still fall off a lot too


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## ChrisEyles (2 May 2016)

@Cumisky nice looking bike, I like that a lot  And SS too, eh - I'm not quite ready for that yet! 

I actually quite like that feeling of having the fillings (and eyeballs) shaken out of your head on the rough stuff... not so much on the high-speed rock gardens maybe but the rest of the time I feel somehow cheated when I'm riding that HT 29er. 

So... unweighting - check, quick prayer before launching off - check, falling off from time to time - check. I think I must be doing it more or less right!


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## Bodhbh (2 May 2016)

screenman said:


> Been riding and racing hard tail for 28 years rigid for the first 5. You toughen up or the under carriage knows how to hide.


This is not a helpful tip apart from blowing your own trumpet.


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## screenman (3 May 2016)

Bodhbh said:


> This is not a helpful tip apart from blowing your own trumpet.



You should read the posts before getting your post numbers up, it was in replay to this line.

"Padded shorts? Haha, I'm guessing you've not done much rigid MTB riding "


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## Jody (3 May 2016)

Its been 20+ years since I did any rocky DH on a rigid but there are a few things that can help. Make sure your saddle isn’t at full XC height if you want to hit at speed, as although its possible it won’t give you much room for maneuver. Try to position yourself slightly rear but low to the frame. The key is to be low enough to aid stability but leave enough room for your legs and arms to compensate the hits. Be prepared for your bike to move under you a lot. 

1 basic skill for most MTB that will aid you is a wheelie. It can get you out of big trouble and is not just for kids in a car park.


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## Jody (3 May 2016)

Bodhbh said:


> This is not a helpful tip apart from blowing your own trumpet.



Did you have any tips yourself?


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## Crackle (3 May 2016)

I'm so glad not to be riding a rigid now, that I can't imagine doing it voluntarily but......line, it's so easy to get knocked off line that's it's crucial, especially uphill and stay off the seat!


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## ChrisEyles (3 May 2016)

Thanks for the tips @Jody (and everyone else!). Since I only encounter rock gardens on red routes at the trail centre I've always got the saddle down at least a bit, which is essential (for me) to deal with the rough stuff. However I usually save getting back on the bike (behind the saddle) for the steep downhills, do you reckon this would help on slightly flatter rock gardens too? I sort of assumed it'd be good to have a bit of weight on the front wheel to keep from being knocked off-line so easily? Maybe I'll give it a go at lower speeds and see how it feels. 

I'm getting used to the bike moving under me a lot like you say, and have got over the early days of having a rigid death grip on the bars and locked stiff legs to match. 

As for wheelies, I'm not quite there yet. I can manage a pretty respectable front wheel lift that gets me over rocks/puddles/steps, but keeping the front wheel up for any real distance is still beyond me. Sometimes I hop the front wheel over for the first large rock I encounter on a garden, but anything further along I don't have the control to try and lift over. It's on the practice list, along with learning to bunny hop (which I currently can't do for toffee). 

I was out today on the bike for a very quick spin around the two little trails in Plymbridge woods (they're literally a 5 minute ride from work, so I've been going most evenings over the last few weeks), and it was so much smoother and less rocky than the Haldon trails I felt like I'd suddenly become an awesome rider


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## Crackle (4 May 2016)

I was reminded of this thread yesterday when I forgot to unlock my suspension downhill. Nothing like a rock garden, just a few downhill sleeper steps but the bike behaved completely differently, which I wasn't expecting, my foot shot off the pedal which immediately rotated and stopped at my shin!


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## oldstrath (4 May 2016)

ChrisEyles said:


> Thanks for the tips @Jody (and everyone else!). Since I only encounter rock gardens on red routes at the trail centre I've always got the saddle down at least a bit, which is essential (for me) to deal with the rough stuff. However I usually save getting back on the bike (behind the saddle) for the steep downhills, do you reckon this would help on slightly flatter rock gardens too? I sort of assumed it'd be good to have a bit of weight on the front wheel to keep from being knocked off-line so easily? Maybe I'll give it a go at lower speeds and see how it feels.



Probably not that far back, as Jody says, you want enough front wheel weight for stability, but getting the saddle down out of the way allows you to move easier if needs be.


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## Globalti (4 May 2016)

In about 1989 my brother and I rode a huge tour starting in Glen Nevis on a full rigid Specialized Rockhopper and an equivalent Saracen. For the first couple of miles of the ride we carried the bikes on our shoulders, then we squelched through knee-deep bogs for about five miles, then we rattled down a Land Rover track with rocks the size of babies' heads for the next few miles to Mamore Lodge, where we drank two pints of shandy and a pot of tea each before falling asleep, exhausted, on the lawn. When we awoke we felt shattered and had to do a big climb before rattling on down the military road where we threw ourselves in a burn and squealed, a lot. Both our headsets worked looose with the hammering the bikes received. 

I'm sure that suspension forks and a little experience on nutrition and hydration would have made the trip a lot easier for us.


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## ChrisEyles (4 May 2016)

@Crackle haha, yes I know that feeling of eye watering pedal-to-shin contact well - even with all my weight going through my feet I still get bounced off from time to time. I'm getting some bigger platform pedals with pins in soon to try and help, but I suspect they will merely serve to make the moment of impact more excruciatingly painful  

@Globalti - actually, that sounds pretty good to me, bogs and all. If you're in the mood for it and have a slight macho/masochistic streak (which I do, for better or worse) those sorts of adventures can be great fun!


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## fossyant (4 May 2016)

If I get another MTB, it will be a bouncer with a dropper seat post. I've done the MTB course near the Velodrome on my fully rigid 90's MTB, the only really scary bits are the 18" drops on a steep descent, with a seat post height set up as my road bikes - not easy to get over the back.


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## screenman (4 May 2016)

ChrisEyles said:


> @Crackle haha, yes I know that feeling of eye watering pedal-to-shin contact well - even with all my weight going through my feet I still get bounced off from time to time. I'm getting some bigger platform pedals with pins in soon to try and help, but I suspect they will merely serve to make the moment of impact more excruciatingly painful
> 
> Surely being clipped in is better for off road, at least I find it that way.


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## ChrisEyles (4 May 2016)

@fossyant I'm dead keen to have a go on a decent FS bike if I get the chance - and dropper posts sound like a great invention, ditto remote lock-out on the suspension. Then I'd give rigid SS a go on the 90s bike (so I'd struggle with the ups as much as the downs haha). Budget and space means it ain't gonna happen for a while though! 

@screenman I've never actually tried clipless on the road let along off it. I was thinking of putting on clips and straps like I've got on all my other bikes, but decided against it when I sped up a bit and started having to dab on the odd corner. It would amuse onlookers when I fell slowly sideways having stalled in one of those darned rock gardens though


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## screenman (4 May 2016)

I find being clipped in give you more control on the bike, more points to pull up on.


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## fossyant (4 May 2016)

This is my MTB, had it since the early 90's (PS got a repaint in the late 90's)... A Diamond Back Ascent EX - was marble grey but I had it repainted fairly quickly. I updated the transfers a year or two ago as they came off. Deore XT and LX. The LX STI's are still working perfectly. 

The Right shifter failed within two weeks of buying the bike, just as STI came out (early adopter). Did Snowdon on a thumb shifter from a basic bike shop in Bangor before it could be sorted. Well despite the 'this stuff won't work', the replacement STI's have been perfect for over 25 years....!!!!!!

We did Snowdon when a few in the club bought MTB's in the early 90's (winter training - so we all bought one), that was a blast. It's been hit by cars, more damage to cars, and it has been a crazy commuter with 1.2" slicks for a while. It was my Winter commuter with snow studs. It's now back as I intend to keep it, off road. It's Tange Cromo and is quality.

It is bloody frightening going down big off road rocky descents, with that road set up seat post, but my knees are happy. I don't go down hill fast, but it climbs like something else.


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## Hacienda71 (4 May 2016)

fossyant said:


> This is my MTB, had it since the early 90's (PS got a repaint in the late 90's)... A Diamond Back Ascent EX - was marble grey but I had it repainted fairly quickly. I updated the transfers a year or two ago as they came off. Deore XT and LX. The LX STI's are still working perfectly.
> 
> The Right shifter failed within two weeks of buying the bike, just as STI came out (early adopter). Did Snowdon on a thumb shifter from a basic bike shop in Bangor before it could be sorted. Well despite the 'this stuff won't work', the replacement STI's have been perfect for over 25 years....!!!!!!
> 
> ...


I tended to just go over the bars before I got a dropper as @dan_bo can testify....


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## fossyant (4 May 2016)

Hacienda71 said:


> I tended to just go over the bars before I got a dropper as @dan_bo can testify....



I rode round Clayton Vale behind my son, but worse, behind Skolly's older lad. I think both his lads would murder me now.. never mind my son who doesn't ride much, but takes his head 'off line' as they do.


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## dan_bo (4 May 2016)

Hacienda71 said:


> I tended to just go over the bars before I got a dropper as @dan_bo can testify....


Sorry pal, and as much as I respect you as a rider-which i do - droppers are for pussies.


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## Hacienda71 (4 May 2016)

As a sh1t part time mtb'er anything that reduces the frequency of my over the bars scenarios is worthwhile even if it makes me a pussy.


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## dan_bo (5 May 2016)

Hacienda71 said:


> As a sh1t part time mtb'er anything that reduces the frequency of my over the bars scenarios is worthwhile even if it makes me a pussy.



I was going to add 'but then again have you seen the state of my face.....'


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## ChrisEyles (5 May 2016)

Very nice indeed @fossyant, that looks lovely - I like the matching blue brake pads too  How do you find the stopping power of the canti brakes?


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## fossyant (5 May 2016)

ChrisEyles said:


> Very nice indeed @fossyant, that looks lovely - I like the matching blue brake pads too  How do you find the stopping power of the canti brakes?



Stopping power, erm, so so !!


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## ChrisEyles (5 May 2016)

Haha, I guessed that might be the case. I'm quite glad the previous owner upgraded the original canti's on mine to vee's.

Great job on the decals and paintwork too, looks showroom fresh in that pic - unlike my own!


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## Jody (5 May 2016)

fossyant said:


> Stopping power, erm, so so !!



.............. and that's in the dry


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## outlash (6 May 2016)

Jody said:


> .............. and that's *uphill*



FTFY


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## ChrisEyles (13 May 2016)

Just been out up at Haldon tackling the rock gardens again today. I tried hitting them with a bit more speed, and a few times it worked a charm - I think I spent more time in mid-air than bumping over the rocks  However, after adopting this philosophy whole-heartedly and charging into another rock garden, instead of the bike going airborne I was lofted off the pedals and narrowly avoided a painful landing on the top tube! So this solution still needs a little work... 

Cracking day out though, I'm really loving the rigid forks and am getting a bit more confident tackling things at speed with them. Even managed to jump a few drop-offs I normally roll down on one of the faster descents


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## screenman (13 May 2016)

You would not have left the pedals if you had been clipped in, I feel it gives you far more control over being unskilled.


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## ChrisEyles (13 May 2016)

True, but I wouldn't have the confidence to ride these trails clipped in having never used SPDs before. I've got a pair of wellgo V8 copies coming to put on the bike, which should hopefully be a bit better than the cheapo plastic pedals that were (and still currently are) fitted when I bought it. They will also unfortunately hurt a lot more if I catch one in the shin!


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## clockworksimon (16 May 2016)

I recently swapped my suspension forks for the original rigid forks on my Clockwork. Made the bike feel really light and fast again like when I first got it in the early 90s. Due to a bad back I replaced the original long low stem with one a bit higher along with shortened riser bars. Besides being more comfortable I also found it easier to ride technical descents. I replaced the cantis with V's too.


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## ChrisEyles (16 May 2016)

Upgrading cantis to vees is an excellent move for an old MTB, I think. 

I've tried out a few different (more modern) bikes with higher front ends and shorter stem/wider bar combos, and while it does admittedly work better on the technical descents they always feel a little boat-like on fun twisty sections and I find them a bit less satisfying to ride. Mind you, comfort is not a word I especially associate with mountain biking! 

I wonder if some time in the future on-the-fly adjustable geometry will be a possibility for MTBs... like dropper posts but for stems, handlebars, head tube angle... though admittedly I would probably still just continue to ride my archaic steed and suffer on the downhills


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## clockworksimon (16 May 2016)

I have a collection of different stems from over the years whilst fettling with different setups. Changing them isn't really an on the fly job though! I did use a Girvan Flexstem for a while which worked well, albeit at the expense of cracking a headset race which wasn't being insulated from the shocks of faster downhilling. I still have a USE XCR Shokpost which helps take the sting out of the trail going through your butt and back. However I am enjoying fully rigid mode right now as the lighter weight makes it feel like the bike skips and flies! As regards the original question, if the rock garden descent is too nervy I would probably wimp out now, shoulder the bike and make it up on the single track and climbs.


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## Grant Fondo (18 May 2016)

Quick question... do you get enough clearance with 2.2"+ tyres when swapping to V's? I couldn't get more than one rasher of extra thin bacon between canti cables/tyres on my rigid Cannondale M500... can anyone recommend which v to go for?


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## clockworksimon (18 May 2016)

I haven't used 2.2s but my now old STX Vs have always had lots of clearance for 2.1s. Can't comment on new models though.


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## Grant Fondo (18 May 2016)

To be honest the Avid canti's I put on are not horrendous and manage to bring my 17 stone to a stop after several hundred feet, lol


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## ChrisEyles (18 May 2016)

I use (admittedly slightly outdated) avid vees and they have a bit of clearance space left over with a 2.1", if that helps. Think I could squeeze a 2.4" in but wouldn't have much mud clearance.


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## Lakesideride (23 May 2016)

ChrisEyles said:


> Just got back from a fab morning's riding at Haldon forest - my first trip to a trail centre since I swapped out the (lame, broken) suspension fork for a rigid one. The bike/fork were fantastic for 99% of the time, and I'm really pleased with the switch.
> 
> However... the rock gardens suddenly became a lot more "interesting" than they were before. My only tactic seems to be to go in with plenty of speed and hang on like grim death 'til I get to the other end (OK, I *try* to be as light on the bike as I can, but after the first jolt it all goes to pot). Didn't even have time to think about weighting/unweighting or front wheel lifts, and needless to say my eyeballs were juddering in my sockets the whole way!
> 
> Anyone got any tips to make riding rock gardens more comfortable/controlled/pro-active?


Just like you said speed seems to be the key and try holding your breath lol


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## Richard A Thackeray (10 Jun 2016)

We all used to race on rigid bikes at one time, I first raced MTB back in 1990, & the first Rock-Shox were just coming across from the States

Don't forget Cyclo-Crossers have ridden rigid 'forever', & some dried out/frozen courses can be equally tough
(let alone the monsters, like the 'Three Peaks Cyclo-Cross', with all its rocky sections)


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## ChrisEyles (10 Jun 2016)

Yep, it's definitely do-able - and I think quite a bit more satisfying than letting the bounce on the bike do all the work. It's kind of nice that the most comfortable way to ride them is also relatively fast, stops me from namby-pambying my way across them if I bottle it. 

I've actually been getting on a bit better with the rock gardens recently. Switching over to some decent flats (wellgo v8 copies) helped a bit, but I guess it's mostly just a matter of practice. 

Last trip to the trail centre our little group had a bit of a session trying to improve our wheelies and bunny hops, so that's the new goal!


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