# Bicycle fitting nightmare



## Aluminum Falcon (1 Dec 2022)

Helllo world!
I have a slight technical hitch. I think that I am on the wrong size cycle for me, but don't hold me to that.
If I go by height (166cm) alone, different sizing charts say that I should be on anything from a 50cm to a 54cm frame. If I go by my inside leg measurement (74cm), then I should be on a 48 or 49cm frame. And I haven't been able to figure out what effect my span (173cm) would have on the recommendation .
I know that I can't be the only short legged long armed would-be pedelestrian trying to ride a bicycle, so, any advice?
I'm currently riding my custom itsabitsa Boardman Road Sport which is a small frame with a 51.5cm C2T seat tube, but the effective tube length is more like 54cm I would say although I haven't measured it yet.
Thanks in advance.


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## Spiderweb (1 Dec 2022)

So 5ft 5 1/2 and a 29” inside leg. The size small Boardman would seem about the right size imo.
What is the problem?
Does it feel wrong/uncomfortable?
You can make adjustments if needed ie. longer or shorter stem or sliding the seat forward or back.
A side on pic of you sat on the bike would be good.


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## notmyrealnamebutclose (1 Dec 2022)

Spiderweb said:


> A side on pic of you sat on the bike would be good


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## cougie uk (2 Dec 2022)

No way should you be on a 54 cm frame. 
Small sounds about right. 
Photo from the side of you on the bike in kit and extending the leg to the bottom would give us an idea.


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## biggs682 (2 Dec 2022)

Sounds like the frame is too big for you unless you are still growing and in which case you might grow into it.


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## HarryTheDog (2 Dec 2022)

I am 5ft 5, 29 inside leg and in a road bike ( drop bar) I look for a 50/51 cm effective top tube as I find a 52cm a little stretchy, with a 50, I can be a little more upright. However 50cm top tube bikes are usually hard to find, 52 a lot easier . 54cm defo too long. 
With a flat bar around 55cm effective top tube. I am 60 and dont like to be too stretched out.


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## davidphilips (2 Dec 2022)

As the sound advice above, seems that your bike may well be the right size, perhaps just spend a bit of time setting it up for your self, saddle height etc lots of videos on utube and can make a big difference to the way a bike feels ?


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## vickster (2 Dec 2022)

Sounds too big a frame given your height, 
yes your legs are short but given your height, your torso can’t be that long.
I’m 5’9.5, long legs but I ride a 54/55cm top tube with a 100/90mm stem. Yes my torso is relatively shorter but it won’t be shorter than yours and my arms are still in proportion to my height


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## Jody (2 Dec 2022)

I'm almost exactly the same size as you @Aluminum Falcon and a small road bike feels stretched.


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## Aluminum Falcon (2 Dec 2022)

@notmyrealnamebutclose , how on earth did you get hold of that picture of me?


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## Alex321 (2 Dec 2022)

Aluminum Falcon said:


> Helllo world!
> I have a slight technical hitch. I think that I am on the wrong size cycle for me, but don't hold me to that.
> If I go by height (166cm) alone, different sizing charts say that I should be on anything from a 50cm to a 54cm frame. If I go by my inside leg measurement (74cm), then I should be on a 48 or 49cm frame. And I haven't been able to figure out what effect my span (173cm) would have on the recommendation .
> I know that I can't be the only short legged long armed would-be pedelestrian trying to ride a bicycle, so, any advice?
> ...



You haven'y got short legs for your height.

I'm 5" taller than you with the same inside leg. I DO have short legs for my height, but still no so far off the norm to make it particularly hard getting a bike that fits. Currently riding a 53cm Cube Attain model.

You definitely don't want to be on anything as big as a 54cm at your height and leg measurement, but nowadays, frame sizes are not standard enough between manufacturers to be able to say you definitely want a 51cm or a 49cm - it will depend on the brand and sometimes model.

Most recommendations I have seen say that if you are on the cusp between two sizes, you are usually better off going for the smaller of the two.


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## rogerzilla (2 Dec 2022)

With steeply sloping top tubes on modern bikes, it can often be a balance between an unavailably long seatpost and an unavailably short stem! On my old On-One Inbred, I needed a 450mm seatpost and a 30mm stem. A smaller frame would have needed a seatpost that doesn't exist. A bigger frame would have been too much of a stretch. I am very average-sized but there are some bizarre bike geometries out there.


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## the_mikey (2 Dec 2022)

Spiderweb said:


> So 5ft 5 1/2 and a 29” inside leg. The size small Boardman would seem about the right size imo.
> What is the problem?
> Does it feel wrong/uncomfortable?
> You can make adjustments if needed ie. longer or shorter stem or sliding the seat forward or back.
> A side on pic of you sat on the bike would be good.



I'm in a similar boat as the OP, boardman frames (and Halfords Carrera frames) are just out of proportion for me, I try to aim for a top tube length of 50 to 52cm, with a 90mm stem (edited as I had originally typed 90cm!!) , sometimes I can go outside this but if the top tube is too long the bike can become difficult to handle in some situations, for example I can fit on a medium sized Giant Defy, and it will ride fine until I encounter a long twisting descent which is where the geometry no longer works, the right Giant frame for me is Small, maybe XS will fit but then the handlebars will be too low for comfort. Unfortunately Halfords and Boardman frames are always a little too long, the bike I'm riding most of the time right now is a 2016 Ribble CGR size small, with a 52cm top tube, the geometry tends towards endurance/gravel and isn't super sporty but I don't experience anything troubling about the ride.


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## cyberknight (2 Dec 2022)

I'm a smidge taller and I can only get away with the small baordman with a 90 stem.next step maybe a compact reach bar ?


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## vickster (2 Dec 2022)

the_mikey said:


> I'm in a similar boat as the OP, boardman frames (and Halfords Carrera frames) are just out of proportion for me, I try to aim for a top tube length of 50 to 52cm, with a *90cm* stem, sometimes I can go outside this but if the top tube is too long the bike can become difficult to handle in some situations, for example I can fit on a medium sized Giant Defy, and it will ride fine until I encounter a long twisting descent which is where the geometry no longer works, the right Giant frame for me is Small, maybe XS will fit but then the handlebars will be too low for comfort. Unfortunately Halfords and Boardman frames are always a little too long, the bike I'm riding most of the time right now is a 2016 Ribble CGR size small, with a 52cm top tube, the geometry tends towards endurance/gravel and isn't super sporty but I don't experience anything troubling about the ride.


90mm presumably


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## the_mikey (2 Dec 2022)

vickster said:


> 90mm presumably



Yes,  I'm not a monster!


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## vickster (2 Dec 2022)

the_mikey said:


> Yes,  I'm not a monster!



Clearly not if you only ride a 50/52cm top tube


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## Spiderweb (2 Dec 2022)

The OP has long arms so long reach. The effective top tube is 54.5cm (geometry chart below) but maybe a little less for the OP as he has his saddle so low, the bike should be fine.
@Aluminum Falcon what is the issue, do you feel as though you are over reaching?
If so try a 70mm stem and/or slide the saddle forward a bit.


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## Aluminum Falcon (2 Dec 2022)

Spiderweb said:


> What is the problem?
> Does it feel wrong/uncomfortable


Thanks for the response. I don't seem to be able to get off the hoods and into the drops, but that might be a lack of confidence/practice.


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## vickster (2 Dec 2022)

Aluminum Falcon said:


> Thanks for the response. I don't seem to be able to get off the hoods and into the drops, but that might be a lack of confidence/practice.



Need a more compact bar?


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## fossyant (2 Dec 2022)

@Aluminum Falcon are you talking about the Boardman in your avatar ? If so I said it was too big months ago. I'm like you, a medium Boardman road bike would be too big for me, 54 normal bike, the medium comes up more like a 56 on BB to top tube. I'm OK on a medium Boardman MTB though as that fits fine.


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## Aluminum Falcon (2 Dec 2022)

cougie uk said:


> No way should you be on a 54 cm frame.
> Small sounds about right


Had a measure up and the effective seat tube is more like 55/56cm. The effective top tube quoted by geometry geeks is correct though. The Boardman is rather large for a small.


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## Aluminum Falcon (2 Dec 2022)

biggs682 said:


> Sounds like the frame is too big for you unless you are still growing and in which case you might grow into it.


Unfortunately I stopped growing vertically a long time ago.


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## Aluminum Falcon (2 Dec 2022)

davidphilips said:


> As the sound advice above, seems that your bike may well be the right size, perhaps just spend a bit of time setting it up for your self, saddle height etc lots of videos on utube and can make a big difference to the way a bike feels ?


Fine tuning the geometry is currently a work in progress. I have some bars with a 125mm drop and a 75mm reach waiting to be fitted.


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## Aluminum Falcon (2 Dec 2022)

Alex321 said:


> You definitely don't want to be on anything as big as a 54cm at your height and leg measurement, but nowadays, frame sizes are not standard enough between manufacturers to be able to say you definitely want a 51cm or a 49cm - it will depend on the brand and sometimes model.
> 
> Most recommendations I have seen say that if you are on the cusp between two sizes, you are usually better off going for the smaller of the two.


I was aiming in the middle of the various recommendations with the 51.5cm Boardman but unfortunately I didn't do enough homework. I think that I would need a 49/50cm frame in a Boardman for them to work for me.


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## Aluminum Falcon (2 Dec 2022)

cyberknight said:


> I'm a smidge taller and I can only get away with the small Boardman with a 90 stem.next step maybe a compact reach bar ?


Already swapped to a 90mm stem and working on the handlebar situation.


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## Aluminum Falcon (2 Dec 2022)

Spiderweb said:


> do you feel as though you are over reaching?
> If so try a 70mm stem and/or slide the saddle forward a bit.


Slight niggling doubts in the reach department. I will do some research on my seat position but currently it feels about right for my legs in relation to the BB.


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## Aluminum Falcon (2 Dec 2022)

fossyant said:


> are you talking about the Boardman in your avatar ? If so I said it was too big months ago.


I am, and I know. Thing is that it does feel right in a straight line and it doesn't in a gentle turn but does in a tight turn. Problem is others have said that it's not too big and so I'm confused and there seems to be no industry standard for bicycle sizing while there is a standard for sizing a rider which is about as much use as a chocolate teapot given the lack of conformity between manufacturers.


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## Aluminum Falcon (2 Dec 2022)

I would like to say thank you to all who posted in this thread while I was absent (at work driving), your replies have given me food for thought about tweaking the geometry to see if I can make it work.


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## davidphilips (3 Dec 2022)

Aluminum Falcon said:


> Fine tuning the geometry is currently a work in progress. I have some bars with a 125mm drop and a 75mm reach waiting to be fitted.



Good man, before you fit new bars just check there width, lots of bikes are fitted with 42cm or even 44cm bars but know for me i prefere 40 or even 38cm bars? Same with crank arms/ chainsets always check there length most seem to be 172.5 or 175 again if i have my own preference of 170cm, as you say fine tuning.


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## Jameshow (3 Dec 2022)

Have you tried a really short boardman stem, they used one on the kids road iirc.


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## MichaelW2 (3 Dec 2022)

My approach to sizing it to make correct reach your priority, using a stem of reasonable length to maintain normal steering. 8-12cm is the normal range.
Then pick a style of frame ( trad horizontal, sloping or v compact) that gives adaquate standover without massively over extended seatpost.
You have look at different brands or models to get slight changes in geometry in the same " size".


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## vickster (3 Dec 2022)

Flog the Boardman frame set, get one that’s a better fit, transfer parts across


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## Aluminum Falcon (3 Dec 2022)

vickster said:


> Flog the Boardman frame set, get one that’s a better fit, transfer parts across


Sounds like a plan


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## Aluminum Falcon (3 Dec 2022)

Jameshow said:


> Have you tried a really short boardman stem, they used one on the kids road iirc.


Not yet


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## cyberknight (3 Dec 2022)

looking at your bike pic it does look a bit big for you , obviously cant say without seeing you on it , this is mine same nominal frame i think and im only half an inch taller ?


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## MichaelW2 (3 Dec 2022)

cyberknight said:


> looking at your bike pic it does look a bit big for you , obviously cant say without seeing you on it , this is mine same nominal frame i think and im only half an inch taller ?
> View attachment 669885
> 
> 
> View attachment 669887



Do you find those bars to big, in width and drop?


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## Aluminum Falcon (3 Dec 2022)

MichaelW2 said:


> Do you find those bars too big, in width and drop?


The bars are Specialized shallow drop. They are 420mm wide with a 100mm reach and 140mm drop as far as I can tell. I have some 440mm Prime Doyenne aero bars with a 125mm drop and 75mm reach. My shoulders measure up at 420mm so I should be OK with the 440mm bars.
As I said earlier, I just seem to be having trouble getting off the hoods and into the drops. I start feeling a little unbalanced as I try to move my hands down.


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## Aluminum Falcon (3 Dec 2022)

cougie uk said:


> No way should you be on a 54 cm frame.
> Small sounds about right.
> Photo from the side of you on the bike in kit and extending the leg to the bottom would give us an idea.

















Do these help?


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## MichaelW2 (3 Dec 2022)

That is a very upright position for the hoods. I would use that back angle riding on the tops. My back is around 45 degrees on the hoods and I rarely venture onto drops, only downhill or a headwind.


Also your knee angle at the top of the stroke is very small . A smaller crank length would reduce the range of angles required and keep you in a more efficient zone. Look at video of a pro road rider, not their back angle but the range of motion of their hip and knees.


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## davidphilips (3 Dec 2022)

Maybe just me but looks like some thing very bad wrong with that bike fit? Only my opinion there will be far better that me to put there view across but looks like your saddle is far to far forward? Theres no way i could cycle like that? Again only my view and will look more latter to try and make my mind up but just looks wrong to me?


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## youngoldbloke (3 Dec 2022)

IMO Looks to me as if your saddle is too low and too far forward. Agree you look very upright on the hoods. Almost cramped, hence awkward getting on the drops?


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## Aluminum Falcon (3 Dec 2022)

davidphilips said:


> Maybe just me but looks like some thing very bad wrong with that bike fit? Only my opinion there will be far better that me to put there view across but looks like your saddle is far to far forward? Theres no way i could cycle like that? Again only my view and will look more latter to try and make my mind up but just looks wrong to me?


Thank you for your input, it's genuinely appreciated. Obviously I can't see what I look like riding and have no clue as to what I'm doing wrong as I am a complete novice. 


youngoldbloke said:


> IMO Looks to me as if your saddle is too low and too far forward. Agree you look very upright on the hoods. Almost cramped, hence awkward getting on the drops?


I must admit that I don't feel cramped when riding. I will try moving the saddle forward. As to my position, remember my span is 173cm so my arms are about 35mm longer than standard which will push me a little more upright than standard.


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## cyberknight (3 Dec 2022)

these links are a great starting point
https://wheel-easy.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/bike-set-up-2017a.pdf
https://www.jimlangley.net/crank/bikefit.html


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## Aluminum Falcon (3 Dec 2022)

cyberknight said:


> these links are a great starting point


Indeed! More homework


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## cyberknight (3 Dec 2022)

agree with the above saddle to low , sort that out and your setback from bottom bracket them look at the reach, your body should be leaning around 40-50 degrees dependant on flexibility / strength when on the hoods





i tend to ride on the hoods elbows bent most of the time , i reckon i could drop a spacer or two but im comfy as is


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## cyberknight (3 Dec 2022)

this is a good example





https://bikedynamics.co.uk/guidelines.htm#1


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## cyberknight (3 Dec 2022)

Aluminum Falcon said:


> Thank you for your input, it's genuinely appreciated. Obviously I can't see what I look like riding and have no clue as to what I'm doing wrong as I am a complete novice.
> 
> I must admit that I don't feel cramped when riding. I will try moving the saddle forward. As to my position, remember my span is 173cm so my arms are about 35mm longer than standard which will push me a little more upright than standard.


if your over long in the arms then a longer stem would be in order to compensate


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## Aluminum Falcon (3 Dec 2022)

cyberknight said:


> i could drop a spacer or two but im comfy as is


Something that I could try. I'll put it on my list of tweaks.


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## Aluminum Falcon (3 Dec 2022)

cyberknight said:


> if your over long in the arms then a longer stem would be in order to compensate


And there was me thinking I needed to shorten the reach on my handlebars and stem


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## vickster (3 Dec 2022)

Aluminum Falcon said:


> Thank you for your input, it's genuinely appreciated. Obviously I can't see what I look like riding and have no clue as to what I'm doing wrong as I am a complete novice.
> 
> I must admit that I don't feel cramped when riding. *I will try moving the saddle forward*. As to my position, remember my span is 173cm so my arms are about 35mm longer than standard which will push me a little more upright than standard.



Back not forwards?
Your legs look very bent, especially on the downstroke?


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## davidphilips (3 Dec 2022)

Just had another look at the pictures of your bike set up, on the picture where your cranks are at 45 degrees your caff should be straight and yours is way to far back,, saddle needs to be put back a lot only my view but looks about 4 inches out?


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## MichaelW2 (3 Dec 2022)

If you have gibbon arms, you find a lower bar position as well as longer reach helps. Horizontal reach and vertical drop of the bars work together to establish distance from your shoulders. It is hard to say which is more important for comfort ( ignoring aerodynamics for the moment) . Imagine a radius drawn from your ideal shoulder position, you can place the bars "anywhere" on this radius. An adjustable, variable position stem may be useful.


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## Spiderweb (3 Dec 2022)

Aluminum Falcon said:


> View attachment 669897
> 
> 
> View attachment 669898
> ...



If anything your bike looks too small rather than too big!
You definitely need the extra top tube length from the Boardman Geometry.
Is it possible you are not sure of the fit because you are not familiar with riding a drop bar road bike?
If you don’t have issues ie. pain then I would just get some miles in, stop overthinking the fit.


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## Aluminum Falcon (3 Dec 2022)

vickster said:


> Back not forwards


Duly noted. School boy error averted


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## Aluminum Falcon (3 Dec 2022)

Spiderweb said:


> If anything your bike looks too small rather than too big!
> You definitely need the extra top tube length from the Boardman Geometry.


Really? OK 



Spiderweb said:


> Is it possible you are not sure of the fit because you are not familiar with riding a drop bar road bike?


Most likely. It's the first cycle that I have ever built/owned/ridden. 


Spiderweb said:


> If you don’t have issues ie. pain then I would just get some miles in, stop overthinking the fit


Overthinking is probably hitting the nail on the head.


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## Alex321 (3 Dec 2022)

Aluminum Falcon said:


> And there was me thinking I needed to shorten the reach on my handlebars and stem



No, you are definitely more upright than most riders on a road bike.

And that is probably also why you are having difficulty getting into the drops - it is more of a movement when you are starting that upright.


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## Aluminum Falcon (3 Dec 2022)

Alex321 said:


> No, you are definitely more upright than most riders on a road bike.
> 
> And that is probably also why you are having difficulty getting into the drops - it is more of a movement when you are starting that upright.


That certainly makes sense. Thanks for the insight.


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## Aluminum Falcon (3 Dec 2022)

Thanks again to all who have posted. It really helps to know where I'm going wrong and where I am just thinking that I am going wrong. Narrowing down the issues to those that need work is very helpful.


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## Jameshow (3 Dec 2022)

I would alter one dimension at a time. Start with seat height. Ease it by a 1/2 / cm at the time. 

Then when you feel your legs are almost straight then you can look at reach.


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## Aluminum Falcon (3 Dec 2022)

Just checked the seat post and it has a 25mm set-back. I've moved the seat back 10mm from where it was. I will check its effect in the morning.


davidphilips said:


> saddle needs to be put back a lot only my view but looks about 4 inches out?


To get the seat 4"/100mm further back then I would have to change to a much larger frame. The general consensus above is that a medium frame would be too big although I can get the same Road Sport frame in a 53cm medium for £40 at the moment which would stretch the reach 10mm and raise the base level of the seat 15mm. Both areas where it has been noted that I need to go bigger.
I have been doing some homework and it would seem that I have been a victim of the urban myth that I should be able to be in the saddle and touch the floor with the balls of both my feet. It's unlearning false information like that as to why I joined this amazing team.


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## cyberknight (3 Dec 2022)

Aluminum Falcon said:


> Just checked the seat post and it has a 25mm set-back. I've moved the seat back 10mm from where it was. I will check its effect in the morning.
> 
> To get the seat 4"/100mm further back then I would have to change to a much larger frame. The general consensus above is that a medium frame would be too big although I can get the same Road Sport frame in a 53cm medium for £40 at the moment which would stretch the reach 10mm and raise the base level of the seat 15mm. Both areas where it has been noted that I need to go bigger.
> I have been doing some homework and it would seem that I have been a victim of the urban myth that I should be able to be in the saddle and touch the floor with the balls of both my feet. It's unlearning false information like that as to why I joined this amazing team.



i cant touch the floor unless i dismount  , thats what kerbs are for when you stop .........


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## youngoldbloke (3 Dec 2022)

Before you buy another frame try raising the saddle using the heel-on-pedal straight leg method as a starting point. You'll soon get used to sliding forward off the saddle when you stop. You could also look at the LeMond method, and the109% method. Raising the saddle will also have the effect of increasing the saddle setback. To give you a starting point to calculate the setback try the KOPS method. Note that all these methods give you starting points, help put you in the right ballpark.


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## davidphilips (3 Dec 2022)

Any chance of a picture of the seat post. saddle and frame, Just wondering if the seat post is perhaps 180 degrees out or if another type of seat post perhaps with more setback might be in order.
Know some seat posts have zero setback and others quite a lot. only guessing the setback is out by about 4 inches, perhaps measure the length of your top tube from head tube, where the fork passes through it, back towards the middle of the seatpost? some thing just seems wrong, be interesting to find out what it is?
Remember a long time ago i seen an older bike with a sort of bracket clamp at the top of the seatpost and it was fitted the wrong way and put the saddle way to far forward?


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## cyberknight (3 Dec 2022)

davidphilips said:


> Any chance of a picture of the seat post. saddle and frame, Just wondering if the seat post is perhaps 180 degrees out or if another type of seat post perhaps with more setback might be in order.
> Know some seat posts have zero setback and others quite a lot. only guessing the setback is out by about 4 inches, perhaps measure the length of your top tube from head tube, where the fork passes through it, back towards the middle of the seatpost? some thing just seems wrong, be interesting to find out what it is?
> Remember a long time ago i seen an older bike with a sort of bracket clamp at the top of the seatpost and it was fitted the wrong way and put the saddle way to far forward?


https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/bicycle-sizing-nightmare.289113/page-3#post-6866144


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## Aluminum Falcon (3 Dec 2022)

davidphilips said:


> Any chance of a picture of the seat post. saddle and frame, Just wondering if the seat post is perhaps 180 degrees out or if another type of seat post perhaps with more setback might be in order


For a look at the build you can see my cycle here
https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/boardman-road-sport-specialized-build.287823/
Have a look at posts 3, 32 and 38.
HTH


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## slowmotion (4 Dec 2022)

I feel your pain. The first road bike I bought seemed far too big but the bike shop assured me it was right for me. After suffering for a few months, I swapped the 110mm stem to a 90mm one despite all the daft warnings on CC that it would make the steering twitchy. That was a real game-changer. A bit later, I swapped the bars for ones that were 2" narrower, great for riding in busy London traffic where you have to be a bit more nimble than in a time trial. A couple of years later, I bought another road bike with a 50mm smaller frame. Absolute joy!

You can make a small bike bigger by tweeking it but its harder to make a big bike smaller.


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## Aluminum Falcon (4 Dec 2022)

Aluminum Falcon said:


> Just checked the seat post and it has a 25mm set-back. I've moved the seat back 10mm from where it was. I will check its effect in the morning


I have Osgood-Schlatters disease and I did notice that my knee caps didn't feel tight like they normally do on my morning ride, so that's a positive. 
This afternoon I decided to try moving the seat post up. I used the LeMond method as a guide to raising the seat. Using the calculation of 74×0.883=65.342 (inseam x LMM = seat height) as my starting point I rounded down to 65cm and deducted 2cm for the BB and then set my tape measure to 63cm so that I could place the end of the tape against the BB and then raise the saddle until it touched the tape measure itself. 





I marked the saddle height with a bit of masking tape before I moved it up and found that I moved the seat post 23mm to set the saddle somewhere near the recommended height. Now I can't touch the floor in the saddle at all, so I will have to make adjustments to my riding style now 
2 small changes that were very noticeable in the handling of my cycle. Thanks again everyone for the help..


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## ColinJ (4 Dec 2022)

Now that your saddle height is a lot better, maybe you could try moving the stem/bars down a spacer at a time? That would stretch you out a little bit more.

I know some people like their handlebar high like yours, but I discovered that I feel a lot better with mine lowered. (I borrowed my cousin's bike when I was on holiday in Scotland. It was the same size, make, and model as mine but his handlebar was about 5 cm lower than my setup at the time.) 

If you look at my current setup, you can see that I have the bar significantly lower than the saddle. Obviously, that might not suit you (and mine is a much bigger bike) but it shows that there is a wide range to play with.


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## Jameshow (4 Dec 2022)

ColinJ said:


> Now that your saddle height is a lot better, maybe you could try moving the stem/bars down a spacer at a time? That would stretch you out a little bit more.
> 
> I know some people like their handlebar high like yours, but I discovered that I feel a lot better with mine lowered. (I borrowed my cousin's bike when I was on holiday in Scotland. It was the same size, make, and model as mine but his handlebar was about 5 cm lower than my setup at the time.)
> 
> ...



Colin what do you think of the caad4?


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## ColinJ (4 Dec 2022)

Jameshow said:


> Colin what do you think of the caad4?


My bike is a CAAD5 - I am not familiar with the CAAD4. Even though it is about 20 years old, I still think it is a great bike. It is a little heavier than top bikes are these days (around 8.5 kg vs, say, 7.0 kg) but that extra weight is tiny compared to the extra weight on my body! 

The CAAD5 uses old-fashioned square taper bottom brackets, which I am perfectly happy with.

I wasn't quite so happy carting my bulk over the local hills with a 53/39 chainset though! I converted it to a triple chainset from Spa Cycles, so I now use 48/36/28. I also fitted a 12-36 cassette so my bottom gear is a hill-friendly 28/30. I lost out a bit at the top end but I can pedal 48/12 to 51 kph (32 mph) at 100 rpm and freewheel if I want to go faster, since that would only be downhill.


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## cyberknight (4 Dec 2022)

Aluminum Falcon said:


> I have Osgood-Schlatters disease and I did notice that my knee caps didn't feel tight like they normally do on my morning ride, so that's a positive.
> This afternoon I decided to try moving the seat post up. I used the LeMond method as a guide to raising the seat. Using the calculation of 74×0.883=65.342 (inseam x LMM = seat height) as my starting point I rounded down to 65cm and deducted 2cm for the BB and then set my tape measure to 63cm so that I could place the end of the tape against the BB and then raise the saddle until it touched the tape measure itself.
> View attachment 670095
> 
> ...



i measure from the centre of the BB to top of saddle along seatpost , lemond method comes out very close to heel on pedal for me at 68.43 which i round up to 68.5 
another calculator is inseam x1.09 from saddle to crank which comes out 1 cm lower for me but the same ballpark
sounds like your getting there


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## cyberknight (4 Dec 2022)

ColinJ said:


> My bike is a CAAD5 - I am not familiar with the CAAD4. Even though it is about 20 years old, I still think it is a great bike. It is a little heavier than top bikes are these days (around 8.5 kg vs, say, 7.0 kg) but that extra weight is tiny compared to the extra weight on my body!
> 
> The CAAD5 uses old-fashioned square taper bottom brackets, which I am perfectly happy with.
> 
> ...



modern aero bikes are clocking 9 kg unless you have about £3k to spend , i think i prefer the look of older bikes now


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## ColinJ (4 Dec 2022)

Oops - I meant a 12-*30 *cassette.



cyberknight said:


> modern aero bikes are clocking 9 kg unless you have about £3k to spend , i think i prefer the look of older bikes now


I like oversized aluminium!

I have a skinny-tubed steel-framed Basso but I find that a bit too flexy so that lives on my turbo trainer now.


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## Aluminum Falcon (4 Dec 2022)

cyberknight said:


> modern aero bikes are clocking 9 kg unless you have about £3k to spend


Shouldn't that read "modern aero bikes are clocking 9kg unless you have about £9K to spend!" ??

Will spend this week adjusting to the changes so far and see about getting some more pics of me side on and check my KOPS in daylight next weekend. I still have some movement in the saddle bars to play with, so I will keep the handlebars where they are while I get my somewhere about right.


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## Jameshow (4 Dec 2022)

ColinJ said:


> My bike is a CAAD5 - I am not familiar with the CAAD4. Even though it is about 20 years old, I still think it is a great bike. It is a little heavier than top bikes are these days (around 8.5 kg vs, say, 7.0 kg) but that extra weight is tiny compared to the extra weight on my body!
> 
> The CAAD5 uses old-fashioned square taper bottom brackets, which I am perfectly happy with.
> 
> ...



https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/19544828...tixoXeJTeO&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

Interested in this one but n+1=n-1 esp as have brought Christmas present!


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## Jameshow (4 Dec 2022)

Sorry for thread drift!


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## ColinJ (4 Dec 2022)

Jameshow said:


> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/19544828...tixoXeJTeO&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
> 
> Interested in this one but n+1=n-1 esp as have brought Christmas present!


I just searched for info and I think that the headset is the biggest difference from the 4 to the 5.

I can see a few paint defects on the CAAD4 that you are interested in but if they don't bother you then as long as their isn't any real damage that could be a nice buy.


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## Aluminum Falcon (4 Dec 2022)

Jameshow said:


> Sorry for thread drift


It's OK. We'll let you off, this time


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## KnittyNorah (4 Dec 2022)

Aluminum Falcon said:


> it would seem that I have been a victim of the urban myth that I should be able to be in the saddle and touch the floor with the balls of both my feet.


Is that old story still going the rounds? I wonder how many people it's put off cycling when they found they could not cycle either comfortably or efficiently, and - knowing no better - believed the problem was in themselves rather than in a piece of long-standing, and incorrect, advice. 

I am an old lady and the only time I've been able to touch the floor with my feet while upright and on the saddle, was when I got a bike after decades of not cycling, and had to treat it like a kiddy's balance bike for my first ride ... lowered seat, pedals folded in, sit on the saddle and push off with my feet. What a berk I felt, but no-one was around to laugh and I soon found that I could balance OK!


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## ColinJ (4 Dec 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> Is that old story still going the rounds? I wonder how many people it's put off cycling when they found they could not cycle either comfortably or efficiently, and - knowing no better - believed the problem was in themselves rather than in a piece of long-standing, and incorrect, advice.


I cycled up to one rider whose saddle was virtually sat on the top tube. His knees were sticking way out and he was struggling to do 10 mph on a flat road on a wind-free day. I cheerfully gave him the 'correct' advice, along the lines of...

"_Excuse me sir - your saddle is way too low. If you raised it by a few inches you would find riding the bike much easier and more comfortable!_"

His response...? 

"_F*** off and mind you own f***ing business, you ****!!!_" 

Charming fellow! I left him behind, struggling, and destroying his knees.

I don't offer unsolicited advice now!


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## davidphilips (5 Dec 2022)

Hi Colin, Know the feeling made the same sort of mistake a few years ago when cycling early morning in the dark along a main road from Newtownards to Comber.
Theres a bit of the road thats unlit just before it turns into a duel carriageway and i came up behind two young guys with no lights, a few cyclist have been killed a few miles away on a lit carriageway from Newtownards to bangor and i said that they would be safer cycling on the pavement if they had not got any or good lighting.
Perhaps they had been drinking but tbh just wished them a good day and left them shouting abuse after me, not a good start to the day.
Sorry for the thread drift.


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## Aluminum Falcon (5 Dec 2022)

davidphilips said:


> Sorry for the thread drift


Not a problem. It just highlights how many people are not interested in making the most of their bicycle and arrogantly suffer at their own detriment because of their willful ignorance. Thankfully I am not one of them and I am enjoying the company and benefitting from the collective CC wisdom.


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## All uphill (5 Dec 2022)

I know someone who is insistent that you should be able to place both feet flat on the ground when on the bike. I tried to explain that it's better for your knees etc etc. His reply?

"So why don't they make bike where you can do both? "Put feet flat on the floor and get straight legs while pedalling.

I think he just invented the recumbent!


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## Aluminum Falcon (9 Dec 2022)

Aluminum Falcon said:


> I can get the same Road Sport frame in a 53cm medium for £40 at the moment which would stretch the reach 10mm





youngoldbloke said:


> Before you buy another frame try raising the saddle using the heel-on-pedal straight leg method as a starting point. You'll soon get used to sliding forward off the saddle when you stop. You could also look at the LeMond method, and the109% method.


got myself a 53cm frame on the way, just in case. (before you plant your face in your palm, I've got scars on my frontal lobes! that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it!) I've done the Le Mond method and will double check with the heel-on-pedal method and KOPS tomorrow and see if i can get a couple of pictures. in the mean time been doing a lot of reading on the physics of bicycle fitting, quite fascinating.


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## Aluminum Falcon (9 Dec 2022)

So like @cyberknight , i am in a land of confusion (anybody dare mention Genesis or Phil Collins can go to the back of the class!)
Firstly, a chart plagiarised from BikeDynamics to show where I and the Aluminum Falcon sit.





and then one I prepared earier from Geometry Geeks




This is just a guide to show how varied the dimensions are. In the middle are the dimensions for CyberKnight's and my frame (identical), on the left are the stats for the 53cm frame and on the right is my late brother's old cycle which has been used as a donor for my cycle. On paper there is not much difference and it shows how easy it is to end up on the "wrong" bicycle either too big or too small.


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## Spiderweb (9 Dec 2022)

You really are overthinking this when you should be out getting some miles in, making fine adjustments if necessary and actually getting used to the bike.
Apart from mentioning that you find riding on the drops awkward, you’ve not really said what issues you have with fit?
How many miles have you ridden with your current set up?


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## cyberknight (10 Dec 2022)

i would say get your fit dialled in on the current frame , you didnt look to far out that a few tweaks in your fit wouldn't fix ,I have ridden 56 TT bikes but i just needed a shorter stem ,
As @Spiderweb says if your not used to drops they will feel odd and most people me included hardely ride on the drops anymore but tend to ride on the hoods .


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## Aluminum Falcon (11 Dec 2022)

Spiderweb said:


> Apart from mentioning that you find riding on the drops awkward, you’ve not really said what issues you have with fit?


The problem is that I can't get off the hoods. I seem to have a lot of weight on the little finger/ring finger part of my palms and an ache in my lower neck and between my shoulders. It's like my hands are glued to the hoods. While I can lift my fingers and thumbs off the hoods, I don't seem to be able to move my hands without becoming unstable.
I'm trying to figure out what is a lack of core strength, what is bad fit and what is me overthinking things.


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## cyberknight (11 Dec 2022)

if your saddle height/ setback is wrong it can put to much weight on your arms


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## craigwend (11 Dec 2022)

Aluminum Falcon said:


> and what is me overthinking things.



and what is me overthinking things...

Everytime you post a quick update you get a sense of reassurance from the answers though not in your own ability to solve...

Take advice of your choice, try it for a week without posting back.
Then report your findings.


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## Aluminum Falcon (11 Dec 2022)

So yesterday (10-12-22) I did some test and tune after a couple of days off work ill. Everything seemed ok but I still couldn't move my hands so got my youngest on camera duty. 





The heel on pedal felt ok. when I saw the pics I realised that my knee wasn't properly locked suggesting I need more saddle height.




Judging by this pic I need to go back more. Can't really compare my upper body posture as made the mistake of holding the tops.


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## Aluminum Falcon (11 Dec 2022)

Today I've levelled the seat, moved it back 3mm and up 3mm with slight positive results.


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## cyberknight (11 Dec 2022)

remember set back also affects effective seat height so as you move it back you increase effective height , that said it looks like you have a fair bit more to go back yet


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## youngoldbloke (11 Dec 2022)

Why not mark your existing saddle settings with tape and then raise it a good inch or so, saddle setback too, if it feels too much you can move back towards your earlier settings. It would help you to know just how high was too high. Check KOPS too. I have 76.5cm crutch to floor and find 165mm cranks best. My saddle height is 68.5 cm
Rotating the bars forward until the hoods are approaching horizontal will give you more reach too, as would lowering your stem a little. Given your long upper body and arm length you may need a longer stem too.


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## Dadam (11 Dec 2022)

Aluminum Falcon said:


> The problem is that I can't get off the hoods. I seem to have a lot of weight on the little finger/ring finger part of my palms and an ache in my lower neck and between my shoulders. It's like my hands are glued to the hoods. While I can lift my fingers and thumbs off the hoods, I don't seem to be able to move my hands without becoming unstable.
> I'm trying to figure out what is a lack of core strength, what is bad fit and what is me overthinking things.



Have you ridden a drop bar bike before? Sorry if you’ve mentioned it, I can’t be bothered to go back through all the pages. I’m not in exactly the same position, I’m 6’3” with long arms and legs. But I’m new to road bikes and have just got one a few weeks ago. Still tweaking things. I’m still a bit nervous about transitioning into the drops, not so much when on them. I was initially putting too much weight on my hands and had a death grip on the hoods, partially because I’m used to very wide flat bars on my hybrid and the steering on the road bike just feels more twitchy still. 

An ache in your shoulders and neck suggests too much muscle tension. I’m not sure whether this is from gripping the bars or from trying to maintain an uncomfortable arm position


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## Aluminum Falcon (11 Dec 2022)

Here's the results of today's adjustments




Seem to be getting closer to KOPS. Looks like I need a seatpost with more setback.


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## ColinJ (11 Dec 2022)

Aluminum Falcon said:


> Here's the results of today's adjustments
> View attachment 670797
> 
> Seem to be getting closer to KOPS. Looks like I need a seatpost with more setback.


You still look low and upright on the bike to me... Your left heel is dropped. If the saddle were a bit higher, that would push it back a bit because of the backward slope of the seat tube.

I don't have many pictures of me on my bike, but this one shows me whizzing along...






My saddle is about 4 inches higher than the handlebar and I am bent forward a lot compared to you. (Please forgive the pout - I have no idea why that was on my face when the photo was taken! )

Obviously, we don't all feel comfortable in the same position, but I think you might be better moving nearer to that setup?


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## PaulSB (12 Dec 2022)

Looking at these latest images and reading the thread I can't help but feel you've done so much research that you've become confused, perhaps uncertain, as to where you go from here.

My feeling is your next move should be to move the saddle as far back as possible and start again from there. Get the saddle height correct and then adjust the reach if needed. From what I gather reading the thread the general feeling is you have the right size bike. Viewing your images, especially the last, suggests to me either the bike is too small or your position is way out, hard to say which but working off your measurements its the position which is wrong.

In your current position transitioning to the drops will feel difficult. How often will you want to ride on the drops? Perhaps 1-2% of the time? I wouldn't worry too much about this aspect.

A bike fit would help.


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## CXRAndy (12 Dec 2022)

Heel on pedal with crank at bottom dead centre with straight leg is a very good, pretty accurate base setting for seat height. 

Then knee over pedal Kops is again a reasonable starting point for seat back and forth. (Adjust saddle height again after fore/aft). Only by small mm steps.

Then when you have got comfy with your leg position and saddle tilt(normally ever so slightly tilted down). Move onto handlebar position.

This is personal preference and flexibility in your back, neck, shoulder region and wrists. Some folk like quite an aggressive leaning forward, some prefer a more upright position. I would say start higher rather than lower, you can always get a longer stem or invert the stem to lower the handlebars.

I'm going through a bike fit on a new turbo setup. Fortunately I have a reference from my old setup so are gradually dialling in the fine adjustments to match my original setup. Even though they're the same to almost mm precision, the new bike feels different, so small increments will see me get there


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## PaulSB (12 Dec 2022)

@Aluminum Falcon I've been thinking about how best to guide you. @ColinJ is a very experienced cyclist and I'm sure has spent many years tweaking his position.

Take a look at Colin's image and compare it with your own. To me his position is spot on and is how I hope I would look in the same pose. I feel you should be looking to replicate the position Colin demonstrates. His whole body angle from slightly bent leg pushing forward against the pedal (not just up and down), angled back, soft elbows, chin just behind the bars combine to give an efficient and comfortable position. Note his leg is, I think, parallel with the down tube.

Your current position is what I would expect to see on someone riding a flat bar hybrid. Change this, probably by pushing the seat right back initially, and you'll have a good starting point.


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## ColinJ (12 Dec 2022)

PaulSB said:


> @ColinJ is a very experienced cyclist and I'm sure has spent many years tweaking his position.


Fortunately, I am comfortable in that position because I forgot to put an anti-corrosion grease on the titanium seatpost and it is now stuck where it is!


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## youngoldbloke (12 Dec 2022)

@Aluminium Falcon - just a thought - you are measuring your inside leg from floor to crotch in stockinged feet. aren't you?


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## vickster (12 Dec 2022)

If you plan to ride in padded shorts, make sure you sort your bike fit based on wearing those (even if you put your jeans or whatever over the top). On the rare occasion I don't ride in padded shorts, my saddle is always too low and I end up with sore knees!


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## Jameshow (12 Dec 2022)

vickster said:


> If you plan to ride in padded shorts, make sure you sort your bike fit based on wearing those (even if you put your jeans or whatever over the top). On the rare occasion I don't ride in padded shorts, my saddle is always too low and I end up with sore knees!



Really?!


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## Jameshow (12 Dec 2022)

Look at some pro race cycling videos.

Someone like wolt van art, for a good position/ style.


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## vickster (12 Dec 2022)

Jameshow said:


> Really?!



Yes, really. My knees are stuffed and rather sensitive to an over low saddle


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## Spiderweb (12 Dec 2022)

Aluminum Falcon said:


> The problem is that I can't get off the hoods. I seem to have a lot of weight on the little finger/ring finger part of my palms and an ache in my lower neck and between my shoulders. It's like my hands are glued to the hoods. While I can lift my fingers and thumbs off the hoods, I don't seem to be able to move my hands without becoming unstable.
> I'm trying to figure out what is a lack of core strength, what is bad fit and what is me overthinking things.


As has been said before, you are very upright!
You need to ride your bike, ride with your hand on the hoods, forget the drops and ride upright if you like until you get more familiar with your bike.
As you get more practice in, try and bend your elbows and bring your head down, have a look at @cyberknight photo earlier in the thread, that position is spot on.
Some people don’t always get on with drop bar road bikes preferring to ride flat bar hybrids, you may be one of those but you won’t know until you get some miles in. Persevere and good luck👍


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## Aluminum Falcon (12 Dec 2022)

youngoldbloke said:


> @Aluminium Falcon - just a thought - you are measuring your inside leg from floor to crotch in stockinged feet. aren't you?


Yes. Why? Enquiring minds would like to know...


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## Juan Kog (12 Dec 2022)

ColinJ said:


> View attachment 670819
> 
> 
> (Please forgive the pout - I have no idea why that was on my face when the photo was taken! )


Don’t be shy @ColinJ , admit your practicing your Les Dawson impression .


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## Jameshow (12 Dec 2022)

vickster said:


> Yes, really. My knees are stuffed and rather sensitive to an over low saddle



Interesting my mate has to have perfect fit otherwise his knees protest. Cannot use clipless pedals - just flats. 

He's probably done X10 the miles I have done, through commuting for past 25yrs Vs me the off / on weekend warrior!


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## youngoldbloke (13 Dec 2022)

Aluminum Falcon said:


> Yes. Why? Enquiring minds would like to know...



- because if, for example, you were using your trouser inside leg measurement for any saddle height calculations, you would end up being way out.


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## Alex321 (13 Dec 2022)

youngoldbloke said:


> - because if, for example, you were using your trouser inside leg measurement for any saddle height calculations, you would end up being way out.



Well that is the same measurement you are supposed to use for determining your trouser inside leg measurement. It isn't the same as the actual seam length of the trousers.


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## youngoldbloke (13 Dec 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Well that is the same measurement you are supposed to use for determining your trouser inside leg measurement. It isn't the same as the actual seam length of the trousers.



I don't understand. I measure 27" - 69cm from crotch to ankle bone, and therefore buy and wear trousers with a 27" inside leg. My crotch to floor measurement is 76.5 cm - 30"+1/8", so around 3" floor to ankle bone. Quite different measurements which give very different saddle to boitom bracket distances.
69 x 0.883 = 60.9 cm
76.5 x 0.883 = 67.5 cm - almost 3" difference - and as I said before I use saddle - BB measure of 68.5 cm.
So crotch to floor in stockinged feet is the accepted measure to use.
How do you do it?
- and, yes, I'd love to have longer legs


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## Aluminum Falcon (13 Dec 2022)

Just done the "book-to-wall" method to measure my inseam and with the book a "snug fit", I got a measurement of 75.7cm which calculates to a saddle height of 66.843cm rounding up to 67cm and then subtracting 2cm so that I don't have to worry about finding the centre of the BB gives me a seat height of 65cm. Considering that my last calculation was 63cm (with rounding and subtraction) wasn't far off this new figure at only 2cm, or 3/4" in old money, different. 
OK, I know, 3/4" is actually 19mm 
Will adjust accordingly when I get the chance.


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## Alex321 (13 Dec 2022)

Aluminum Falcon said:


> Just done the "book-to-wall" method to measure my inseam and with the book a "snug fit", I got a measurement of 75.7cm which calculates to a saddle height of 66.843cm rounding up to 67cm and then subtracting 2cm so that I don't have to worry about finding the centre of the BB gives me a seat height of 65cm. Considering that my last calculation was 63cm (with rounding and subtraction) wasn't far off this new figure at only 2cm, or 3/4" in old money, different.
> OK, I know, 3/4" is actually 19mm
> Will adjust accordingly when I get the chance.



It is surprising how much difference that 2cm actually makes in reality.


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## Aluminum Falcon (14 Dec 2022)

Alex321 said:


> It is surprising how much difference that 2cm actually makes in reality.


I've heard SWMBO say something like that before......


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## kingrollo (14 Dec 2022)

Aluminum Falcon said:


> Thanks for the response. I don't seem to be able to get off the hoods and into the drops, but that might be a lack of confidence/practice.



Have a look at specialized hover bars - they aren't expensive.
They will give you 15mm of rise - and have a shallow drop.


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## Ronan1001 (14 Dec 2022)

Spiderweb said:


> As has been said before, you are very upright!
> You need to ride your bike, ride with your hand on the hoods, forget the drops and ride upright if you like until you get more familiar with your bike.
> As you get more practice in, try and bend your elbows and bring your head down, have a look at @cyberknight photo earlier in the thread, that position is spot on.
> Some people don’t always get on with drop bar road bikes preferring to ride flat bar hybrids, you may be one of those but you won’t know until you get some miles in. Persevere and good luck👍


Oddly enough, I also prefer a flat bar. But I have an MTB, there are no other bars there


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## PaulSB (14 Dec 2022)

Aluminum Falcon said:


> Just done the "book-to-wall" method to measure my inseam and with the book a "snug fit", I got a measurement of 75.7cm which calculates to a saddle height of 66.843cm rounding up to 67cm and then subtracting 2cm so that I don't have to worry about finding the centre of the BB gives me a seat height of 65cm. Considering that my last calculation was 63cm (with rounding and subtraction) wasn't far off this new figure at only 2cm, or 3/4" in old money, different.
> OK, I know, 3/4" is actually 19mm
> Will adjust accordingly when I get the chance.



I'm not sure I entirely follow this but 2cm is a significant difference in cycling terms and much more than "wasn't far off." Hope it works for you.

I still feel you're overthinking this. Consider this. Push the seat as far back as possible for your reach, set height at 67cm, foot on pedal in riding position with leg extended, roughly 6 o'clock position. Adjust height until you achieve a 10/15⁰ bend at the knee. This will be your correct saddle height. Make small - 1, 2, 3mm - adjustments to fine tune this.

Once you have the height correct start to look at reach and adjust the saddle as needed which may then mean a further height adjustment.

In my view trying to work from a host of different formulas won't give you the answer.

A friend once asked me for help with her riding. We went riding together, I rode behind and alongside her, we made adjustments purely by eye - no tape measures involved at any point. She also wanted a professional bike fit, something I encouraged. After the fit she told me I'd cost her £80!!! Her fit was already spot on and no adjustments had been needed.

There's no doubt the various techniques and formulas give a good starting point but the fine adjustment will always be by "feel." I also suggest once you're 90/95% happy go for a ride taking Allen keys with you, stop and make adjustments along the way.

One other tip. When the height is correct your hips should not rock and you shouldn't feel any stretch on the down stroke. If your hips rock your position is wrong.


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## youngoldbloke (14 Dec 2022)

"In my view trying to work from a host of different formulas won't give you the answer ... There's no doubt the various techniques and formulas give a good starting point but the fine adjustment will always be by "feel." I also suggest once you're 90/95% happy go for a ride taking Allen keys with you, stop and make adjustments along the way"

Spot on!


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## cyberknight (14 Dec 2022)

Alex321 said:


> It is surprising how much difference that 2cm actually makes in reality.



I just raised my saddle 3 mm as it had slipped and I could feel it as I was sitting further back


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## Aluminum Falcon (14 Dec 2022)

PaulSB said:


> trying to work from a host of different formulas


I would say that is my problem.


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## vickster (14 Dec 2022)

Just ride your bike and see how it feels, tweak if uncomfortable. Forget the drops for now


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## Peter Salt (14 Dec 2022)

Jesus Christ, somehow missed this thread and now it's 9 pages of one bloke trying to fit a bike while others watch.

@Aluminum Falcon, I haven't read the whole thing, no doubt there's a million different methods that people now gave you. Someone probably even linked that PDF with a pensioner demonstrating a fit, including dropping a plum line from his knee and whatnot - all the while remaining completely stationary in his garage 

Here's the crux of it: There is no real method. Everyone is different. The bicycle is symmetrical and you're not. You move on the bike all the time - you don't move if you fit it in your back yard. On a long ride you become tired and your position changes. Etc, etc, etc.

Set the bike to what feels comfortable, in your garden, and then take it out for a ride. Depending on how the ride felt, make adjustments on a trial and error basis. There you go - all sorted


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## Aluminum Falcon (14 Dec 2022)

Going to bow to superior knowledge and post again in the new year after some proper riding and fettling. 
Many thanks to all for posting.
Enjoy the festivities and all the best.
TTFN


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## cyberknight (25 Dec 2022)

Update when you can @Aluminum Falcon , im hoping you get it sorted


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## Aluminum Falcon (26 Dec 2022)

cyberknight said:


> Update when you can @Aluminum Falcon , im hoping you get it sorted


Will do soon. Been keeping notes. Planning an update on the 'Falcon over in the project forum.


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## Aluminum Falcon (6 Jan 2023)

So here is my (war and peace sized) update.
17-12-22
Adjusted seat to LeMond method (Calculated 76x0.883=67.108 currently the height in use) and checked against 109% (76x1.09=82.83) which was slightly lower. I was unable to to mount, but I think that that was just me being tired and inflexible.
Moved seat all the way back with no more rearward adjustment.
18-12-22
Put RHS pedal to BDC and mounted cycle. Checked heel on pedal at BDC which worked. Able to lock knee at BDC. Still able to touch the floor with toe of left foot, but only just.
20-12-22
Test ride 1
Seat height OK but very uncomfortable. Steering felt wobbly. Pressure in hands moved to index/forefinger area. Unstable but could move hands around tops and hoods.
Tune up 1
Checked seat angle and adjusted to -2.5° . Lowered hoods slightly rotating bars.
Test ride 2
Seat height OK but still uncomfortable although not as bad. Steering felt wobbly again, possibly due to higher seat (higher CoG). Able to move hands to from hoods to drops with difficulty and very wobbly.
Tune up 2
Swapped -18° 90mm stem for -4° 100mm stem. Rotated the bars forward slightly to set the hoods lower.
21-22-22
Able to move hands from hoods to drops but pain/stiffness is lower neck within 300 yards of starting to cycle.
Went to a bike shop to see their bike fitting staff member. I was told that the seat was 20mm too low and too far back, my kneecap was 50mm too far back, the seat nose too far down, the bars were too high on the steerer, and to ignore forums. I was also told my calculations were nonsense. He asked why I was not using clipped or clipless pedals. I replied that I'm still learning to ride properly. He was not impressed. I was not impressed by him spinning QR spindle bolt to remove it from the back wheel. Staff member had a very negative vibe. A 45 mile round trip for unpleasant/bland experience.
I stumbled across BestBikeAdvice (while searching for in person bike fitters near me) and did the online bike fit. It's very informative and interesting asking for seven different physical measurements. It gives advice about how to set up a cycle, dimensions plus what to look for when buying a new bicycle.
BestBikeAdvice fit recommendations were to set the seat height at 66.6cm (slightly lower than I am using, so I left it as is.) from BB centre to seat top, set the seat setback to 3.5cm from seat nose to BB centre, set the seat back away from the bars by 48.2cm including the stem, and to set the bar height to 4.9cm below seat height.
If I am buying a new bicycle then the recommended reach is from 340mm to 390mm and the recommended stack is between 480mm and 540mm.
22-12-22
Adjusted seat height up slightly, levelled the seat properly (as advised) using a spirit level, adjusted seat setback, adjusted handlebar height down, discovered that I was wrong about the reach and drop on the Specialized handlebars (actually 75mm reach and 123mm drop not 100mm reach and 140mm drop), swapped the 100mm stem for the 90mm stem again.
I swapped the Specialized handlebars for the Prime Doyenne aero bars and thought "maybe not?". It's only the fact that I could thread the cables into the bars that made me hesitant about staying with the Specialized handlebars.
24-22-22
I was still undecided to go with the aero bars.
Having made all the recommended changes from BestBikeAdvice to the Aluminum Falcon I had a chance for a test ride before taping the bars and everything felt good and comfortable, apart from the seat. Then the front brake cable stuck due to loose filaments. This helped me with the decision to go with the aero bars and thread the cables. Then I got slightly sidetracked changing the chain and replacing the bottom pulley wheel on the rear derailleur.
25-22-22
Finished threading the cables through the doyenne bars complete with trimming the excess cables, both inner and outer, and capping the cable ends.
26-22-22
Scared myself with the task of taping the handlebars but watched the Park Tools and GCN YouTube videos on handlebar taping before starting. Took the whole process slowly and carefully and didn't end up in tears. Surprised myself that I actually managed to do it first time round.
27-12-22 to 2-1-23
Just testing and adjusting the seat angle to get back to comfortable before adjusting the setback or height to help with the shoulder and neck pain. I've also been doing some exercises to help with my core strength as that is undoubtedly part of the problem.
I am convinced that the spirit level laid on top of the seat from front to back isn't the best idea for levelling as it doesn't take into account the upwards sweep of the back of the seat and therefore places the nose of the seat pointing upwards.


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## ColinJ (6 Jan 2023)

Aluminum Falcon said:


> I am convinced that the spirit level laid on top of the seat from front to back isn't the best idea for levelling as it doesn't take into account the upwards sweep of the back of the seat and therefore places the nose of the seat pointing upwards.


Ha ha - that reminds me of this experience...



ColinJ said:


> I was once on a training camp near Benidorm when former pro Marcel Wüst was one of the guest riders. I limped back from one long training ride and said hello to Herr Wüst, who was sunning himself on the lawn outside his room. He took one look at my bike and leapt to his feet, declaring that my saddle angle was "not correct" - very German! He insisted on levelling it so that the back and front were at the same height, but as you point out _slow down_ - that makes the front part slope upwards. I only managed to ride about 1 km with the saddle like that and I got the dreaded _numb nuts syndrome_. I adjusted it back to my preferred 'front section level' setting and had no further problems with it.


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## cyberknight (7 Jan 2023)

sounds like a lot of fun ...........
Bike fit is so personal even fitters who go by the numbers can get it wrong especially if they stick blindly to what they think work rather than working with a person as we are not all 20 something race snakes and is an ongoing process of tweak and see along with change as your body changes which unless you have many years of riding under your belt and know what feels wrong for you can be a headache as you have found out .
With regards saddle ignore the bit at the back where it goes up seems to work for me so the level sits on the nose and at the back before it goes up .


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## Jameshow (7 Jan 2023)

Aluminum Falcon said:


> So here is my (war and peace sized) update.
> 17-12-22
> Adjusted seat to LeMond method (Calculated 76x0.883=67.108 currently the height in use) and checked against 109% (76x1.09=82.83) which was slightly lower. I was unable to to mount, but I think that that was just me being tired and inflexible.
> Moved seat all the way back with no more rearward adjustment.
> ...



I'm guessing it depends on the saddle many modern ones are quite flat so a level saddle is ideal. 

However many such as charge spoon, rolls, turbo, brooks have a bit of shape so the back bit needs to be slight uphill! 

If you get any numbness then the position is wrong tilt it forward.


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## cyberknight (7 Jan 2023)

Jameshow said:


> I'm guessing it depends on the saddle many modern ones are quite flat so a level saddle is ideal.
> 
> However many such as charge spoon, rolls, turbo, brooks have a bit of shape so the back bit needs to be slight uphill!
> 
> If you get any numbness then the position is wrong tilt it forward.


indeed i have spoons ...


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## PaulSB (7 Jan 2023)

I'm exhausted just reading this. I can't begin to explain why but I'm left with the feeling you've managed to overthink and make very complicated the simple task of setting up your seat height and position. It really isn't as difficult as this.

I went back to look at your photos. The bike looks small for you.


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## Jameshow (7 Jan 2023)

Aluminum Falcon said:


> View attachment 669897
> 
> 
> View attachment 669898
> ...



Possibly but as the op said he's got fairly short legs Vs longer torso so it's always going to be a compromise between the two. A longer stem might help?


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## PaulSB (7 Jan 2023)

Jameshow said:


> Possibly but as the op said he's got fairly short legs Vs longer torso so it's always going to be a compromise between the two. A longer stem might help?



It's those images which made me go back to the thought the bike is too small. It just looks so wrong.

A couple of years ago a friend asked for help with her riding. We already rode together so on the next ride I paid particular attention to her position. We then adjusted everything as needed. It took 30 minutes. A few weeks later she went for a professional bike fit. The guy did nothing, said she was spot on. Obviously I was lucky but it proves the point, this is basically a very simple task. I'm nothing more than an experienced cyclist.

I mean no offence to the OP but those pics look completely wrong to me and he's making an easy task extremely complex and difficult.


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## biggs682 (7 Jan 2023)

I agree with @PaulSB there's a lot of over thinking here.

Don't mind admitting after op's first comment I said below. 


biggs682 said:


> Sounds like the frame is too big for you unless you are still growing and in which case you might grow into it.



Now having seen pictures it looks it's too small or certainly needs saddle lifting and going backwards then once we have that right then play with the bars and fine tune it . 

No need for a bike fit . 

@Aluminum Falcon where are you based ?


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## Illaveago (7 Jan 2023)

I've been enjoying this saga. It seems to have gone on longer than Coronation Street !
From the pictures my first impression was that the bike was too small. As for saying that you should be able to have the balls of your feet touching the ground whilst seated is out dated . Looking at some pictures of people riding cycles back in the old days looks like their bikes were incredibly tall, they seem to have used the pedals to raise them up onto the saddle . I find that when I come to a stop I slide off the saddle and angle the bike over so that you don't hit things . I think some of us are lucky in being able to get on with any size bike without any discomfort . They might not be the ideal size but we somehow we manage to make them fit . 
It would be interesting if the OP has finally got things sorted .


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## biggs682 (7 Jan 2023)

My Easy way keep adjusting saddle to you can just about touch the floor in the shoes you use without leaning left or right. 
Then do a few miles to see if your legs are reaching a nearly straight position and then fine tune .


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## Ming the Merciless (7 Jan 2023)

PaulSB said:


> It took 30 minutes. A few weeks later she went for a professional bike fit. The guy did nothing, said she was spot on.



I’m not so sure about the luck. Bike fitting isn’t some obscure dark art, adjusting the bike to fit you is fairly easy if you make small adjustments at a time and have an eye for detail. This usually takes a bit of experience as new folks adjust everything at once in big changes then wonder why it still doesn’t fit well.


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## Aluminum Falcon (7 Jan 2023)

Illaveago said:


> I've been enjoying this saga. It seems to have gone on longer than Coronation Street


I'm glad that you like it


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## Aluminum Falcon (7 Jan 2023)

PaulSB said:


> A couple of years ago a friend asked for help with her riding. We already rode together so on the next ride I paid particular attention to her position. We then adjusted everything as needed. It took 30 minutes


@PaulSB you say that bike fitting is an easy task, but you quote experiences of helping someone (so there are actually 2 people involved)) and say that any experienced cyclist should be able to do it. I am not an experienced cyclist, this is my first ever bicycle and I'm working on my own.

The advice in this thread covers the whole spectrum from the bike is too big to it's too small making it easy to get confused as I have no point of reference to work from. As for the seat height, if I put the seat any higher I will be struggling to reach the pedals through the bottom of the stroke. And as for putting it further back, both online and real life experts say the opposite.
I realise that everyone who has posted has done so to help by offering an opinion with good intentions. And as I have said before, thank you to all.
That all said, I would like to think that I am making progress and having some fun along the way.


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## Aluminum Falcon (7 Jan 2023)

biggs682 said:


> where are you based ?


@biggs682 I am based in Holbeach in Lincolnshire. Why?


biggs682 said:


> Now having seen pictures it looks it's too small


I do have the medium frame but the stack would be a real stretch for my little legs.


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## biggs682 (7 Jan 2023)

Aluminum Falcon said:


> @biggs682 I am based in Holbeach in Lincolnshire. Why?
> 
> I do have the medium frame but the stack would be a real stretch for my little legs.



I was wondering if there were any cc members who were near by that could help .

If you are ever passing through Wellingborough I would be happy to help you.

I normally have a few bikes hanging around that you could throw a leg over to get an idea and see if anything helps with your set up .


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## Illaveago (7 Jan 2023)

Aluminum Falcon said:


> @PaulSB you say that bike fitting is an easy task, but you quote experiences of helping someone (so there are actually 2 people involved)) and say that any experienced cyclist should be able to do it. I am not an experienced cyclist, this is my first ever bicycle and I'm working on my own.
> 
> The advice in this thread covers the whole spectrum from the bike is too big to it's too small making it easy to get confused as I have no point of reference to work from. As for the seat height, if I put the seat any higher I will be struggling to reach the pedals through the bottom of the stroke. And as for putting it further back, both online and real life experts say the opposite.
> I realise that everyone who has posted has done so to help by offering an opinion with good intentions. And as I have said before, thank you to all.
> That all said, I would like to think that I am making progress and having some fun along the way.



I may be joining you . I've just bought a frame , didn't measure it until I got it home. It has a working bell ! The one on my other bike broke .


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## Aluminum Falcon (7 Jan 2023)

Just realised that I didn't actually list the specs of my bicycle or the current fit.
I'm riding a 51.5cm Boardman Road Sport with a 385mm reach and 559mm stack.
My saddle height is 67cm, the setback is 4cm from seat to BB, seat to bars is 48.5cm and the seat to bars drop is 4cm.


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## Aluminum Falcon (7 Jan 2023)

Illaveago said:


> I may be joining you . I've just bought a frame , didn't measure it until I got it home. It has a working bell ! The one on my other bike broke .


Is that working Bell thing one of the N+1 excuses?
Seeing as I have a spare pair of wheels, 2 pair of tyres and a 53cm medium frame it's tempting to build something. Possibly a flat bar fixie? I would say having half a bike is a good excuse for a bit of N+1


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## Illaveago (7 Jan 2023)

Aluminum Falcon said:


> Is that working Bell thing one of the N+1 excuses?
> Seeing as I have a spare pair of wheels, 2 pair of tyres and a 53cm medium frame it's tempting to build something. Possibly a flat bar fixie? I would say having half a bike is a good excuse for a bit of N+1



I've just bought a Boredman Sport X7 frame with bits attached. It is a 54 cm seat tube . I think it is a 2017 version silver and blue . I like tinkering .


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## notmyrealnamebutclose (7 Jan 2023)

I'm waiting for the next instalment. What is the correct way to position your brake levers?


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## sevenfourate (7 Jan 2023)

notmyrealnamebutclose said:


> What is the correct way to position your brake levers?



In such a position you can reach them quickly perhaps ?


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## notmyrealnamebutclose (7 Jan 2023)

sevenfourate said:


> In such a position you can reach them quickly perhaps ?


You could be right but where's the fun in that


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## ColinJ (8 Jan 2023)

sevenfourate said:


> In such a position you can reach them quickly perhaps ?


In such an alignment that you don't have an uncomfortable bend of the wrist to use them!


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## Illaveago (8 Jan 2023)

What the OP has pointed out is valid ! We have said that according to the figures he quote for his frame size compared to his height that the bike he has would be too big for him yet from the pictures it looks to be the opposite! It looks more like he needs a larger frame . 
I have just bought a similar Boardman frame, it was cheap and had some good components on it so I wasn't too worried about the size . I will get it to fit one way or another! I have measured the frame and it is 54 seat tube and 54 top tube or crossbar. I am 5ft 10 ins or 5 ft 10.5 ins. I haven't put any wheels on it yet so I just sat across the frame , placed my feet on the pedals and placed my hands on the hoods. It feels a bit of a stretch! This is just my initial thoughts. As I say I haven't fitted wheels so it is just my first impression. 
Trying to find images of riders just cycling along from the side as a comparison of how you should look is difficult. All I seem to have found in a couple of cycling magazines are either of cyclists standing up on the pedals or taken from some fancy angle . 
This is new to me as the OP as I am used to classic steel road bikes. I just thought I would give these style of bikes a try .


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## PaulSB (Monday at 06:21)

Aluminum Falcon said:


> @PaulSB you say that bike fitting is an easy task, but you quote experiences of helping someone (so there are actually 2 people involved)) and say that any experienced cyclist should be able to do it. I am not an experienced cyclist, this is my first ever bicycle and I'm working on my own.
> 
> The advice in this thread covers the whole spectrum from the bike is too big to it's too small making it easy to get confused as I have no point of reference to work from. As for the seat height, if I put the seat any higher I will be struggling to reach the pedals through the bottom of the stroke. And as for putting it further back, both online and real life experts say the opposite.
> I realise that everyone who has posted has done so to help by offering an opinion with good intentions. And as I have said before, thank you to all.
> That all said, I would like to think that I am making progress and having some fun along the way.



I suspect you think I'm unsympathetic, I'm not. I don't think I said any experienced cyclist should be able to solve this. You have someone available to take photos, perhaps the same person can look at you on the bike and comment on whether you look comfortable or not. I'm exactly the same height and inside leg as you, I've spent time yesterday trying to figure out the solution, even to the extent I found the geometry of your bike and compared it directly with mine. As far as I can tell your frame is bigger which given how cramped you look doesn't make sense. I think there are two possibilities; first you continue to overthink what is a very simple task and second, as mentioned up thread, or the frame just doesn't work for you.

I can only think of two points. Once again go back to basics. I read your detailed post of recent adjustments several times, it left me confused. My bike position at it's simplest is this; I can "just" sit on the saddle with the ball of my foot on the ground and my foot extended upwards. This is a slight stretch. The hand position is on the curve, slightly in front of the curve or on the straight section inside the curve, my elbows are "soft," back straight and fully extended the knee is 10-12⁰ bent. I look as though I have plenty of space on the bike. If I was to ride on the hoods for any period of time I would feel stretched. It isn't necessary to ride on the hoods for long periods and moving back nearer the curve will effectively gain your 3". From each of those positions it's easy to move to the hoods. In this position I have the flexibility I need to "move around" the bike as different circumstances dictate - the crucial point for me is if I change position my sit bones don't move.

Can't think of much else except one thing. Don't change everything at once. Height first, reach second. I think you mentioned aero bars. Don't attempt these until you are 100% confident in your position and bike handling. Good luck.


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## PaulSB (Monday at 06:23)

Ming the Merciless said:


> I’m not so sure about the luck. Bike fitting isn’t some obscure dark art, adjusting the bike to fit you is fairly easy if you make small adjustments at a time and have an eye for detail. This usually takes a bit of experience as new folks adjust everything at once in big changes then wonder why it still doesn’t fit well.



Thank you. I have to admit I was pretty chuffed when my friend returned saying "Thanks, Paul. You just cost me £80. No adjustments needed!"


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## Jameshow (Monday at 07:53)

Illaveago said:


> What the OP has pointed out is valid ! We have said that according to the figures he quote for his frame size compared to his height that the bike he has would be too big for him yet from the pictures it looks to be the opposite! It looks more like he needs a larger frame .
> I have just bought a similar Boardman frame, it was cheap and had some good components on it so I wasn't too worried about the size . I will get it to fit one way or another! I have measured the frame and it is 54 seat tube and 54 top tube or crossbar. I am 5ft 10 ins or 5 ft 10.5 ins. I haven't put any wheels on it yet so I just sat across the frame , placed my feet on the pedals and placed my hands on the hoods. It feels a bit of a stretch! This is just my initial thoughts. As I say I haven't fitted wheels so it is just my first impression.
> Trying to find images of riders just cycling along from the side as a comparison of how you should look is difficult. All I seem to have found in a couple of cycling magazines are either of cyclists standing up on the pedals or taken from some fancy angle .
> This is new to me as the OP as I am used to classic steel road bikes. I just thought I would give these style of bikes a try .



Well boardman was a racer and into aerodynamics!!🤣🤣


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## biggs682 (Monday at 08:01)

I found myself yesterday morning looking at my riding position every time I saw my shadow which was quite a bit but I just couldn't get a good picture as I was riding .


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## PaulSB (Monday at 08:04)

biggs682 said:


> I found myself yesterday morning looking at my riding position every time I saw my shadow which was quite a bit but I just couldn't get a good picture as I was riding .



I did exactly the same on Saturday and watched how my buddies held their bars!!!! 🤣


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## biggs682 (Monday at 08:05)

PaulSB said:


> I did exactly the same on Saturday and watched how my buddies held their bars!!!! 🤣



And I bet they were all different


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## PaulSB (Monday at 08:08)

biggs682 said:


> And I bet they were all different



They were and I've never really taken much notice of it before. I asked each about it, the basic reply was I'm comfortable. One struck me as rather odd. Thumb over the top of the hood with fingers wrapped around under the bars behind the levers. I suspect I do that if I'm on the drops so I'll have to remember to think about it!!!!!


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## Illaveago (Monday at 08:14)

Right!
I quickly got my Boardman X7 Sport similar to the OP's bike ready for a ride. I borrowed a pair of wheels off another bike . The frame size if measured from the centre of the bottom bracket to the very top of the seat post clamp is 54cm. I think to measure to some imaginary line from the centre line of the crossbar is just confusing . The saddle will only go down to the highest point . 
When I first sat on the frame minus wheels with my feet on the pedal , the bike was resting on the chainring the seat position felt right . The reach to the hoods felt a bit of a stretch. Oh! I'm about 5ft 10.5 ins , so according to the charts it should be fine . After fitting the wheels and sitting on the bike it felt like the saddle needed raising . I raised the saddle about an inch before setting off for my ride . After going a few yards I had to raise the saddle even more . I set off once again but felt that my legs were still bent but continued with my ride . Poor decision! The backs of my knees were hurting last night !
The ride itself felt nice . The stretch to the hoods needs sorting . The saddle could go forward or perhaps it needs a shorter stem . I need to see how my knee lines up with the pedals .
It is as they say a minefield out there ! When you look at all of the designs of cycles with differing angles of crossbars ! At least with the old horizontal crossbars you had some idea where you were . Now we have small frames with massive seat posts which seems to be causing some confusion .
As for having the balls of both feet on the ground I prefer just one foot with one left on a pedal . My wife prefers both feet firmly planted on the ground ! This caused a lot of problems trying to sort her bike out ! I couldn't ride it ! The frame is long but the saddle was low . When I tested it it felt like my knees were hitting my chin ! It was impossible to ride. I fitted a new crank with smaller arms to resolve things. It was a lot better. At least it was rideable. 
As mentioned previously I've also seen people riding around on bikes where their legs hardly seem to straighten ! I suppose their legs are used to it now but they would get on better if they raised their saddle a bit .


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## Ming the Merciless (Monday at 08:54)

Comfortable will depend on your flexibility and strength and power output as well as body shape. I’m sure if I still had the racer I got when 19 and went for a ride of over an hour, it wouldn’t be as comfortable as I found it back then.


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## Illaveago (Monday at 09:57)

biggs682 said:


> I found myself yesterday morning looking at my riding position every time I saw my shadow which was quite a bit but I just couldn't get a good picture as I was riding .



Strange isn't it ! I've done the same thing . 
I wonder if the number of cycling accidents will increase after this thread as cyclists are too busy looking at their reflections in shop windows ?


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## Reynard (Monday at 14:00)

Looking at the photos, I'd say the OP's bike is way too small. But then again, we're all different and all bikes are different. I'd suggest the OP chucks all of those numbers into the bin and simply work from "feel".

For me, I know that if I can just stand over a frame without bashing myself in the unmentionables, then I'm in the right ballpark in terms of frame size. Then I use the back of a chair to hold on to (to avoid any graceless toppling over), I work out the saddle height by putting the heel of one foot on a pedal when it's at the bottom of its stroke. If my leg is straight (but not locked) then again, I'm in the right ballpark.

After that, I just go out and ride the bike, stopping to tweak as I go. Never really looked at numbers to be fair, but if I measure saddle height to bottom bracket and saddle nose to steerer on all my bikes, they're pretty well much the same. And that's across three different frame geometries / bike types (road bike, hybrid and rigid MTB) and three different wheel sizes (650c, 26" and 24")

When I'm in the saddle, there is no way I can touch the ground with my feet - I have to slide forward and down when I come to a stop. If I've the saddle low enough to touch the balls of both feet on the ground, I can barely ride the bike. Never ceases to amaze me how people can ride a bike with their knees almost hitting their ears...

The way I see this is that it's a similar circular debate when it comes to choosing shorts or saddles. We're all made differently and what works for me won't work for you sort of thing, and which is why (and it pains me to say this as an engineer) the numbers are a PITA.


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## youngoldbloke (Monday at 14:05)

PaulSB said:


> I suspect you think I'm unsympathetic, I'm not. I don't think I said any experienced cyclist should be able to solve this. You have someone available to take photos, perhaps the same person can look at you on the bike and comment on whether you look comfortable or not. I'm exactly the same height and inside leg as you, I've spent time yesterday trying to figure out the solution, even to the extent I found the geometry of your bike and compared it directly with mine. As far as I can tell your frame is bigger which given how cramped you look doesn't make sense. I think there are two possibilities; first you continue to overthink what is a very simple task and second, as mentioned up thread, or the frame just doesn't work for you.
> 
> I can only think of two points. Once again go back to basics. I read your detailed post of recent adjustments several times, it left me confused. My bike position at it's simplest is this; I can "just" sit on the saddle with the ball of my foot on the ground and my foot extended upwards. This is a slight stretch. The hand position is on the curve, slightly in front of the curve or on the straight section inside the curve, my elbows are "soft," back straight and fully extended the knee is 10-12⁰ bent. I look as though I have plenty of space on the bike. If I was to ride on the hoods for any period of time I would feel stretched. It isn't necessary to ride on the hoods for long periods and moving back nearer the curve will effectively gain your 3". From each of those positions it's easy to move to the hoods. In this position I have the flexibility I need to "move around" the bike as different circumstances dictate - the crucial point for me is if I change position my sit bones don't move.
> 
> Can't think of much else except one thing. Don't change everything at once. Height first, reach second. I think you mentioned aero bars. Don't attempt these until you are 100% confident in your position and bike handling. Good luck.



I think I'm even more confused now.
Much of the above from PaulSB rings true, especially only alter one thing at a time. Get the saddle height right first. Then the reach. Don't go changing the bars, cranks hood positions until later, if at all. Don't expect to ride comfortably in the drops if it's your first road bike, especially if you are carrying a little more around the waist than is desirable.
However I don't understand :


> "If I was to ride on the hoods for any period of time I would feel stretched. It isn't necessary to ride on the hoods for long periods and moving back nearer the curve will effectively gain your 3"".


IME most riders of drop bar bikes spend most of their time riding on the hoods, fingers ready to apply the brakes, it's the default position.
Get the saddle height and reach (to the hoods) more or less right first, worry about drops later.

edit: Reynard sums it up nicely.


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## Alex321 (Monday at 14:13)

youngoldbloke said:


> However I don't understand :
> 
> 
> > "If I was to ride on the hoods for any period of time I would feel stretched. It isn't necessary to ride on the hoods for long periods and moving back nearer the curve will effectively gain your 3"".
> ...


Yes, I feel very uncomfortable if the brake levers aren't instantly in reach. 

There are only a few bits of the roads I usually ride on where forward visibility is good enough to know I won't need to brake or change gear for long enough to be worth moving both hands to positions where that isn't true.

I think that most road bike riders spend 90%+ of the time on the hoods, and most of the rest in the drops.


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## youngoldbloke (Monday at 14:25)

Alex321 said:


> Yes, I feel very uncomfortable if the brake levers aren't instantly in reach.
> 
> There are only a few bits of the roads I usually ride on where forward visibility is good enough to know I won't need to brake or change gear for long enough to be worth moving both hands to positions where that isn't true.
> 
> I think that most road bike riders spend 90%+ of the time on the hoods, and most of the rest in the drops.



On a 30 mile ride with the club yesterday I noticed only one of the riders on the drops, this for a short period of time when she was taking her turn at the front into quite a strong wind. It is not uncommon for no-one to use the drops during a ride. I also spend a fair proportion of time riding on the tops - the straight area of the bars inboard of the hoods, nearer the stem, but only when it's safe to leave the brakes uncovered - never in a group.


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## PaulSB (Monday at 16:11)

youngoldbloke said:


> I think I'm even more confused now.
> 
> IME most riders of drop bar bikes spend most of their time riding on the hoods, fingers ready to apply the brakes, it's the default position.
> Get the saddle height and reach (to the hoods) more or less right first, worry about drops later.
> ...


This rider doesn't or at least he believes he doesn't. I'll try to study it more closely and report back...................if this weather lets me get near a bike anytime soon


Alex321 said:


> Yes, I feel very uncomfortable if the brake levers aren't instantly in reach.
> 
> *There are only a few bits of the roads I usually ride on where forward visibility is good enough to know I won't need to brake or change gear for long enough to be worth moving both hands to positions where that isn't true.*
> 
> I think that most road bike riders spend 90%+ of the time on the hoods, and most of the rest in the drops.


I believe you but find it a surprising remark. I would say 90% of the time I don't need to be within instant reach of the hoods. I recognise the circumstances in which I may do and adjust accordingly. At least, as above, this is what I think I do.



youngoldbloke said:


> On a 30 mile ride with the club yesterday I noticed only one of the riders on the drops, this for a short period of time when she was taking her turn at the front into quite a strong wind. It is not uncommon for no-one to use the drops during a ride. I also spend a fair proportion of time riding on the tops - the straight area of the bars inboard of the hoods, nearer the stem, but only when it's safe to leave the brakes uncovered - never in a group.



Generally this would be my use of the drops; either to catch a group I have been dropped from or work hard in headwind. If I'm descending a hill I know well I'll use the drops. I don't like to be on the drops while in the group, front or back yes but never the middle. My main position is around the tops and curve of the bars. If I have my hands nearer the levers/on the hoods in anticipation of braking it's generally only a dab which is needed and I do this from the top of the lever.


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## Alex321 (Monday at 16:28)

PaulSB said:


> I believe you but find it a surprising remark. I would say 90% of the time I don't need to be within instant reach of the hoods. I recognise the circumstances in which I may do and adjust accordingly. At least, as above, this is what I think I do.


That could be a function of the types of road we ride on. 

I spend the majority of my time riding the small lanes around the Vale of Glamorgan, and those tend to be quite narrow with sight lines rarely more than 200-300 yards at best, often less, plus frequent changes in road attitude, meaning I may well find myself changing gear several times in a minute or two.

If you are riding on more open roads, without such frequent gradient changes, then you may well feel more confident in not having instant access to the levers.


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## youngoldbloke (Monday at 16:40)

RE my post upthread: "Get the saddle height right first. Then the reach. Don't go changing the bars, cranks hood positions until later, if at all. Don't expect to ride comfortably in the drops if it's your first road bike, especially if you are carrying a little more around the waist than is desirable." I should have added "saddle setback" after saddle height, then reach, then bar height. 
The Le Monde formula and KOPS are helpful to put you in the right ball-park, somewhere to start from - that's all!


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## Jameshow (Monday at 17:17)

Even the pros are so different on the bike!! 

Chris Froome and Adam Yates, Bernal, comes to mind, they don't look natural. 

Where as Big mig, wout van art, MVP, Rog, prog look much more natural?!🤔🤔


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## sevenfourate (Monday at 17:48)

Has the OP posted a side on profile video of himself riding ?


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## PaulSB (Monday at 17:49)

Alex321 said:


> That could be a function of the types of road we ride on.
> 
> I spend the majority of my time riding the small lanes around the Vale of Glamorgan, and those tend to be quite narrow with sight lines rarely more than 200-300 yards at best, often less, plus frequent changes in road attitude, meaning I may well find myself changing gear several times in a minute or two.
> 
> If you are riding on more open roads, without such frequent gradient changes, then you may well feel more confident in not having instant access to the levers.



I know those lanes from visits to the area and understand what you mean. Lancashire, my stomping ground, has mile after mile of great lanes which generally have good site lines. The nature of our hills is one needs to select a comfortable gear at the bottom and sit in, again sight lines are such, plus local knowledge, mean one can easily anticipate a change long before it's needed.

We do have some lanes similar to yours and I would be on the hoods for those.


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## ColinJ (Monday at 18:09)

To illustrate exactly how different our riding positions can be, here is a bike that I spotted in Hebden Bridge... 







The woman who owned it had a back or neck problem, and that enabled her to keep on cycling... It doesn't look safe to me, but I saw her riding it around for years so it must have been!


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## youngoldbloke (Monday at 18:15)

Jameshow said:


> Even the pros are so different on the bike!!
> 
> Chris Froome and Adam Yates, Bernal, comes to mind, they don't look natural.
> 
> Where as Big mig, wout van art, MVP, Rog, prog look much more natural?!🤔🤔



Yes, you don't want to emulate CF's stem fixation. Lots of Pros riding on the hoods.


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## Jameshow (Monday at 18:24)

ColinJ said:


> To illustrate exactly how different our riding positions can be, here is a bike that I spotted in Hebden Bridge...
> 
> View attachment 673897
> 
> ...



I know a guy who rides on the hoods, but his position is a carbon copy of obree superman position! He must have a 200mm stem!🤣🤣🤣


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## ColinJ (Monday at 18:54)

Jameshow said:


> I know a guy who rides on the hoods, but his position is a carbon copy of obree superman position! He must have a 200mm stem!🤣🤣🤣


Or a bike 5 sizes too big. I think the stem on my CAAD 5 (see avatar on the left) is 140 mm long. I can ride 58 cm frames like that one with a long stem, or maybe a 60/61 cm frame with a 100-110 mm stem.


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## bikingdad90 (Monday at 21:28)

How have we managed to get through 13 pages of threads and no one has mentioned bikefit James on Francis Cades YouTube channel. He is great at explaining cause and effect and then the remedy.


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## Jameshow (Monday at 23:11)

ColinJ said:


> Or a bike 5 sizes too big. I think the stem on my CAAD 5 (see avatar on the left) is 140 mm long. I can ride 58 cm frames like that one with a long stem, or maybe a 60/61 cm frame with a 100-110 mm stem.



I'll try and catch a sneaky pic if him sometime!! He could be in here or more likely the CTC forum!🤣


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## cyberknight (Wednesday at 18:41)

seen this on facefluff , boardman forks unsure if they fit yours?

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1236153514006802/


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## Aluminum Falcon (Wednesday at 19:53)

cyberknight said:


> seen this on facefluff , boardman forks unsure if they fit yours?
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1236153514006802/


Are you after the Tommasini forks* I just bought for yourself?

*see here https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/boardman-road-sport-specialized-build.287823/post-6883643


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## cyberknight (Wednesday at 20:41)

Aluminum Falcon said:


> Are you after the Tommasini forks* I just bought for yourself?
> 
> *see here https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/boardman-road-sport-specialized-build.287823/post-6883643



im not after owt . in fact i forgot about those forks ,I was browsing and i saw them and thought of you


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