# New Group



## suzeworld (22 Dec 2015)

Hi 
I have never done any club cycling but my wife is trying to set up a group based on her workplace.
There are a few keen riders and 25-30 ppl have expressed an interest.

I am a bit worried about safety with a new group, none of us used to cycling with more than one or two chums.

Any advice?


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## snorri (22 Dec 2015)

This could be one lead to follow... https://www.ctc.org.uk/courses-and-training/leading-instructing-and-training/courses-for-leaders

The usual disclaimers apply


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## suzeworld (22 Dec 2015)

Ta. I dont know if we need anything that formal, for a group of work mates once a month .... but I will pass on the info

Just found a 41 page pdf which looks good .. but hey, who is going to read 41 pages? hmmm


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## snorri (22 Dec 2015)

You will get more responses in daylight!
I certainly think you should consider insurance in order to cover the organiser/leader in event of some misfortune during a group cycle run. The organiser may consider the arrangements to be informal among workmates, but in the event of damage or injury a legal eagle may well take a different view.


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## suzeworld (22 Dec 2015)

Thanks, no rush for answers,first meet planned for March ...but just thought we needed to look into this, since quiet a few are interested.


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## Shadow (22 Dec 2015)

Suze

Great idea and @snorri's advice is excellent. The FNRttC peeps that I have ridden with could be helpful here, it is the only 'club' I have been involved with but learnt so much about riding generally and group riding in particular. I am aware that insurance was a potential minefield and ALL riders have to have third party insurance as a minimum to participate. Perhaps a word with @Flying Dodo or @mmmmartin might be useful.

I wish you all the best with this and hope it works out for you. If only I lived closer to Stoke!


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## mjr (22 Dec 2015)

Shadow said:


> I am aware that insurance was a potential minefield and ALL riders have to have third party insurance as a minimum to participate.


As I understand it, you have to have third party insurance from a particular provider (CTC or BC) to sign up for a FNRttC. (More detail https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/london-to-brighton-night-ride-march-6th.172399/post-3506168 ). Not that they could really stop you riding the public roads anyway.

IIRC, although FNRttC doesn't use this feature, CTC does allow the groups it insures to have a small number of non-members for a small number of rides but basically they want every rider to pay the £46 annual membership ASAP. I don't know BC's current requirements for groups and I've not looked recently because I don't like being disappointed!

I think insurance is much more important if yours is a formal ride with all the directing hand signals and shouts of "clear" and so on, or engaging in risky close-formation riding. If it's just a group of workmates and family riding along a consensual route along public roads and cycle tracks at the same time in a similar manner to any coincidental group of people (with due consideration to the Highway Code and so on), then everyone's ordinary third party cycling insurance (whether through household insurance, another club or a specialist scheme) should cover any incidents, shouldn't it?

Oh and besides directing people, the other big thing to beware is fixing other people's bikes. CTC group insurance does not cover it, but insurance has been offered free-of-charge during Bike Week by its organisers in recent years. Some workplace insurances cover it for work-associated groups - maybe more likely if a workplace has pool bikes or does similar light mechanical work? In general, it's probably best to advise people on how to fix their own bikes for other reasons too, though.


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## suzeworld (22 Dec 2015)

Thanks folks - I will continue to research and pass on the distilled wisdom to my other 1/2.


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## Citius (22 Dec 2015)

suzeworld said:


> Thanks, no rush for answers,first meet planned for March ...but just thought we needed to look into this, since quiet a few are interested.



Use the time between now and march to ride with an existing, experienced club and watch and learn. Actual experience will beat any amount of internet research.


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## Flying Dodo (23 Dec 2015)

mjray said:


> As I understand it, you have to have third party insurance from a particular provider (CTC or BC) to sign up for a FNRttC. (More detail https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/london-to-brighton-night-ride-march-6th.172399/post-3506168 ). Not that they could really stop you riding the public roads anyway.
> 
> IIRC, although FNRttC doesn't use this feature, CTC does allow the groups it insures to have a small number of non-members for a small number of rides but basically they want every rider to pay the £46 annual membership ASAP. I don't know BC's current requirements for groups and I've not looked recently because I don't like being disappointed!
> 
> ...



A couple of points here. Although CTC personal membership is £46, for anyone joining via an affiliate such as The Fridays (in order to participate on a FNRttC), then the membership fee is only £24 pa. It makes the admin far easier and also fairer for everyone if the FNRttC insists on all participants being either CTC members or one of equivalents allowed. 

But as pointed out above, household or other insurance may cover the individual if they have an accident due to their own fault. The important thing though is that if someone is leading/organising a ride, then that wouldn't cover the leader being sued by someone else on the ride, as the "consensual route at the same time" argument wouldn't stand up to much scrutiny. That's why if you're concerned about these things, organising it via the CTC or BC becomes important, in order to cover the ride leader. Plus as well as ensuring that all the participants do have proper cover, as it gives third party insurance up to £10 million not just on the organised workplace rides but also at any other time.


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## mjr (27 Dec 2015)

http://www.ctc.org.uk/sites/default...ated_bodies_organisers_liability_guidance.pdf says CTC insurance covers rides of up to 200 riders, although only 10 non CTC riders. Can you ask where they got 12 from, @User13710?


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## mjr (27 Dec 2015)

User13710 said:


> I did, because I couldn't quite believe it! They insisted it was mentioned, and was in the huge handbook (which I wasn't interested in wading through). They said the issue was not insurance for ride participants, but the leader being insured against a personal liability claim.


That seems to be the same insurance as the PDF I linked is talking about, so either it's some other insurance than the group one or that leader is misunderstanding something in the handbook, which itself wouldn't exactly bode well for their rides, would it?


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## velovoice (27 Dec 2015)

User13710 said:


> I felt it was a miscommunication between the person running the Leaders Course and the ride leader I was talking to, but the level of slightly angry adamantness was such that I couldn't be bothered to pursue it and just put it down to the muddle that is the CTC lately. Won't stop me turning up for rides anyhow.


I agree, TMN. He misunderstood, but if he's not prepared to entertain that possibility, what can you do?

There are different levels of "ride leader qualification". I am not sure if all the main training organisations operate the same system of levels, but I myself am qualified (through Sustrans) to lead groups up to 12, no more. I could go through more training and another assessment if I wanted that cap lifted. But I don't, so I won't.

ETA: Thinking about it... it's probably the case that this chap's own leader certificate states he is qualified to lead groups of up to 12. Maybe he wasn't paying attention when the trainer mentioned the other levels and he thinks that's all there is?


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## mjr (27 Dec 2015)

Do a dozen CTC riders really want "leading" in any way worth the name? 

I can understand it if there are the hundreds that CamCycle get sometimes, although I'm not sure whether they use certified ride leaders and I don't care about it for rides I go on anyway. I make my own risk assessments and if the "leader" is being a nobber (a BC ride leader trying to go backwards up a one way a few months ago springs to mind), I'll ignore them or challenge them, depending on my mood.


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## steveindenmark (27 Dec 2015)

I had to supress a smile when I read some of the posts. It seems like the UK has become a health and safety haven. In Denmark we have many villages who get groups together, a couple of times a week to go out on picnic rides. The distances vary from about 20km to 100km.

The participants are adults and I have never heard of insurance being mentioned. You ride in them with the knowledge that you are doing it at your own risk.

Denmark is beginning to take this health and safety thing on but they are a good 10 years behind the UK. Thankfully.


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## Flying Dodo (28 Dec 2015)

If I'm doing one of my own rides, for 10-15 people then I'm not particularly concerned about insurance, and don't worry about it, but if it's 50 people then I would be.

I went on the same CTC Ride Leader course just before Christmas and basically they're just trying to get people to get out on their bikes and ride, either setting up their own CTC affiliate group (if people want the insurance/rules) or doing their own thing, and suggesting ways to get people to enourage others to cycle. It was quite a good overview in fact. The handbook provided, which is also available somewhere on the CTC website wasn't presecriptive but had lots of good pointers about things to consider and certainly wasn't a H&S driven document. In fact I was quite surprised the CTC had produced it!

In respect of CTC ride leader insurance, an individual might have a limit imposed on them for rides- I know their Off road/mountain bike course limits the leader to only 12 other participants. However, anyone coming on a FNRttC, where we've had over 100, can be reassured in knowing they're covered.


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## Dogtrousers (28 Dec 2015)

User13710 said:


> We are all in danger of disappearing up our own fundaments with anxiety, rather than just getting out and cycling about together having fun.


This.

Which is not to say that I'm immune to this anxiety, quite the opposite.


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