# CeramicSpeed Bearings



## eml1909 (30 Oct 2014)

Does anyone have any experience of these? http://ceramicspeed.com/sport/why-ceramicspeed/save-6-to-9-watts/

Do they work or are they a waste of money?

Any feedback gratefully received....


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## Rob3rt (30 Oct 2014)

Pull the seals out of your normal bearings and you are most of the way there for a tiny fraction of the cost!


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## oldroadman (26 Dec 2014)

Rob3rt said:


> Pull the seals out of your normal bearings and you are most of the way there for a tiny fraction of the cost!


Except that water and muck will then get in and grind away the surfaces, and then.... Either stick with conventional bearings (complete with seals!) or do the job properly. It depends what level you are at, as to whether you see changing as worth it. For the average rider it might be an expensive way to achieve not a lot. For the full effect every bearing needs to be changed. Chainset, wheels, gear mechs, the lot. Not cheap!


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## gds58 (26 Dec 2014)

Ceramic bearings are definitely better. It is a harder material than steel and as such it can be manufactured to finer tolerances so the bearings will run smoother and faster. They require a different lubrication which is lighter in consistency so overall they do make a difference but they are at least three times the cost of a conventional bearing. Put them in Bottom Brackets and wheels and you will get the biggest gains, and maybe pedals if it is possible to find correct replacements.
Graham


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## Fab Foodie (26 Dec 2014)

As overcoming wind resistance is about 97% of the power requirement needed to ride at any significant speed I'd say ceramic bearings are likely to make bugger all difference in the real world.


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## ufkacbln (26 Dec 2014)

I changed the bearing on the wheels of the Catrike as they get gunged up.. a whole new feel, less servicing and have lasted about three times as long as the last set of bearings (and still going)


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## gds58 (26 Dec 2014)

Fab Foodie said:


> As overcoming wind resistance is about 97% of the power requirement needed to ride at any significant speed I'd say ceramic bearings are likely to make bugger all difference in the real world.


Where on earth did you get that figure of 97% from!! It's actually around 40% of power required is to overcome air resistance. It has been shown in proper test conditions that ceramic bearings DO make a realistic difference. The choice that has to be made though, is whether or not you feel that the significantly increased expense is justified by your own specific needs. For example, in this years 10 mile National Time Trial, Matt Bottrill won by 2 seconds from Ryan Mullen. If it were that Bottrill uses Ceramic and Mullen doesn't, then the expense is totally justified. Do you see my point? I accept that this is an extreme example but if it means that a couple of seconds in a '10' can be the difference between winning or losing, beating a PB or maybe getting under the magic 20 min' mark then it's worth it - every time! Simple answer is, if you can afford it then do it.
Graham


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## Rob3rt (26 Dec 2014)

40% is VASTLY incorrect. Cervelo say 80-90% is about right for the proportion of total power to overcome air resistance (aerodynamic drag).

http://www.cervelo.com/en/engineering/thinking-and-processes/aerodynamics.html

This is in keeping with most other data I have seen.

The rest of the above I agree with.


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## Fab Foodie (26 Dec 2014)

gds58 said:


> Where on earth did you get that figure of 97% from!! It's actually around 40% of power required is to overcome air resistance. It has been shown in proper test conditions that ceramic bearings DO make a realistic difference. The choice that has to be made though, is whether or not you feel that the significantly increased expense is justified by your own specific needs. For example, in this years 10 mile National Time Trial, Matt Bottrill won by 2 seconds from Ryan Mullen. If it were that Bottrill uses Ceramic and Mullen doesn't, then the expense is totally justified. Do you see my point? I accept that this is an extreme example but if it means that a couple of seconds in a '10' can be the difference between winning or losing, beating a PB or maybe getting under the magic 20 min' mark then it's worth it - every time! Simple answer is, if you can afford it then do it.
> Graham


I thought it was data from Mike Burrows on the recent 'speed' programme. In any case it's a better figure than 40% which is waaay off the mark.
For most mortals the accuracy if their tyre pressure gauge or the clothes they are wearing are more likely to have a bigger impact than ceramic bearings.
It's a very marginal gain is my point.


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## gds58 (26 Dec 2014)

Fab Foodie said:


> It's a very marginal gain is my point.


Agreed, but wasn't that exactly what worked for Team GB and Team SKY to very good effect. If you can achieve a number of 'marginal' gains then it ceases to be marginal, which was my point!
Whatever the percentages might be it still remains that there are gains to be made but you have to decide upon their value for money. Nobody else can make that decision for you.


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## gds58 (26 Dec 2014)

Fab Foodie said:


> I thought it was data from Mike Burrows on the recent 'speed' programme. In any case it's a better figure than 40% which is waaay off the mark.


Figures and data can be made to mean whatever you need them to and bicycle and component manufacturers will use this to their best advantage. It takes very little effort to make a bike move forwards as air resistance is low but as the speed increases and most importantly when it is above (approximately) 22mph then the effort required increases exponentially until it reaches a point which represents 80-90% of input which is required to maintain that speed. Overall, from standstill upwards the figure of 40% is representative of the average percentage of input which is used to reach and maintain speeds in excess of 22mph. Whatever the 'numbers' are doesn't matter, it still remains that anything which can be introduced in order to reduce resistance no matter where it comes from, has got to be of benefit. It will however, be of significant detriment to your bank balance, but you know what they say "If it has wheels or a skirt, you can't afford it!!"


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## Fab Foodie (26 Dec 2014)

gds58 said:


> Agreed, but wasn't that exactly what worked for Team GB and Team SKY to very good effect. If you can achieve a number of 'marginal' gains then it ceases to be marginal, which was my point!
> Whatever the percentages might be it still remains that there are gains to be made but you have to decide upon their value for money. Nobody else can make that decision for you.


Of course marginal gains have a value, but there is a big difference between a gain that benefits a professional at the top of their game under the most ideal circumstances and the benefit for the majority of us sub-optimal mortals here.


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## oldroadman (27 Dec 2014)

Just about the air resistance thing. The resistance increases approximately as the square of speed. Thus 20km/hr, resistance is 400 units, at 50km/hr, 2500 units. Whichis why you can potter along all day but speed is much harder to maintain. Then of course the warmer the air, the lower the resistance, which is why indoor velodromes are generally hot (up to 28/29c). Moral - for an hour record, go indoors and turn the heating up fall blast. Plus get all the marginal gains you can because they all add up to a significant one. All of which applies to performance issues, for everyday riding you pays your money and takes your choice, if you like riding decent stuff then (sadly nowadays) it has to be paid for. Team supplied kit does not come to long retired old blokes...


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## gds58 (27 Dec 2014)

Fab Foodie said:


> Of course marginal gains have a value, but there is a big difference between a gain that benefits a professional at the top of their game under the most ideal circumstances and the benefit for the majority of us sub-optimal mortals here.


Wow suddenly the penny has dropped!! that's exactly what I have been saying - you have to weigh up the benefit against cost which for those of us who have to pay for it, is always going to be a contributory factor. It took a while but eventually we got there!!


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## Fab Foodie (27 Dec 2014)

gds58 said:


> Wow suddenly the penny has dropped!! that's exactly what I have been saying - you have to weigh up the benefit against cost which for those of us who have to pay for it, is always going to be a contributory factor. It took a while but eventually we got there!!


No need for the sarcasm thanks ....
I always understood. your point, but you seemed to failed with mine and that is even if the cost was affordable the performance benefit for most mortals will be so small as to be of little or no value ....
We live in a world where we are sold a lot of 'performance gains' or improved x, y and z where the so called 'science' doesn't apply in the real world, but people buy into the hype (for a variety of reasons - not just a lack of critical thinking) but we don't get the benefit we thought we'd paid for. The great thing about places like this is that we get alternative critiques and occasional reality checks.


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## gds58 (28 Dec 2014)

eml1909 said:


> Does anyone have any experience of these? http://ceramicspeed.com/sport/why-ceramicspeed/save-6-to-9-watts/
> 
> Do they work or are they a waste of money?
> 
> Any feedback gratefully received....


Answer to Q1: *YES*
Answer to Q2: If (like me) you have lots of ability and lots of money: *NO*
Answer to Q2: If (like others) you have little ability and little money: *YES*


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## Yellow Saddle (5 Jan 2015)

I surfed a bit on the Ceramicspeed website. Lots of BS there. They produce no hard data on their findings only pictures and graphs without units or reference data. Pure marketing nonsense.

They make claims such as 9% improvement but don't say over what. They don't say whether those bearings are hybrids or pure ceramics although they hint at them being hybrid steel/ceramic bearings. They claim the bearings are hand made. Bearings are not tapestries, they're best made and assembled by machines.
They make claims such as 100% smoother, x-much harder etc etc. They claim their ceramic (Silicon nitride) balls are harder than other balls made from the same material. It goes on and on.

9% improvement: It is easy to achieve such a figure. You don't state the load under which the bearing works, you don't state the base reference point which could be a tricycle bearing made from square balls.

Hybrid bearings have steel races and ceramic balls. The ceramic is much harder than the ball and easily damages the race. Although the balls survive, the races, once damaged renders the bearing useless. Ceramic bearings have low durability in real-life bicycle use.
Bearing smoothness is measured in microns and expressed as Class. A class 100 bearing has imperfections that are no larger than 100 microns. A class 20 bearing has imperfections no more than 20 microns and so on. A good steel bearing is typically class 10 and an average ceramic bearing is class 5. This company claims its bearings are 100% smoother than the competition i.e. Class 2.5. Nonsense. It's own claim is Class 3, so why lie elsewhere on the website?

Generic bicycle bearing balls are typically class 100 and super smooth Shimano balls are class. Campagnolo balls are class 10. As you go smoother, the returns diminish but cost escalates exponentially.

Ceramic bearings were designed for fast-spinning applications such as turbo chargers which reach 100 000 rpm. At such speeds the centrilfugal force of the balls deform them and they start to lose contact with the races and then self-destruct. Lighter balls solve the problem. Turbos also generate very high heat and the ceramic copes with that. However, bicycles don't go that fast and class 20 or 10 is just fine. I cannot picture a scenario where replacing all the bearings in a quality groupset with ceramic ones will save 9 Watts. Without data I will continue to disbelieve it.

As someone pointed out, the power required to keep a body moving through air goes up by the square of the speed due to wind resistance. At about 40 kph the slightest aero adjustment to the rider will save a minute and many adjustments and mods, aero helmets and clothing saves many more minutes. At higher speed the savings are even more. These high speed savings are only applicable to solo time-triallists, not pack riders who mostly hide from the wind. For the price of a bearing replacement you can afford a good time trial coach and bike setup and buy an aero suit.

The argument that 2 seconds can make or break the race is only valid if the claims made by the bearing companies are correct but I've seen their little pseudo experiments at trade shows and if you know what to look for, it is clear that they are rigged.

Fortunately for companies like this, there is no species of human more superstitious than the professional or serious amateur athlete.


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## Fab Foodie (5 Jan 2015)

Yellow Saddle said:


> I surfed a bit on the Ceramicspeed website. Lots of BS there. They produce no hard data on their findings only pictures and graphs without units or reference data. Pure marketing nonsense.
> 
> They make claims such as 9% improvement but don't say over what. They don't say whether those bearings are hybrids or pure ceramics although they hint at them being hybrid steel/ceramic bearings. They claim the bearings are hand made. Bearings are not tapestries, they're best made and assembled by machines.
> They make claims such as 100% smoother, x-much harder etc etc. They claim their ceramic (Silicon nitride) balls are harder than other balls made from the same material. It goes on and on.
> ...


Thanks.


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## gds58 (7 Feb 2015)

Yellow Saddle said:


> I surfed a bit on the Ceramicspeed website. Lots of BS there. They produce no hard data on their findings only pictures and graphs without units or reference data. Pure marketing nonsense.
> 
> They make claims such as 9% improvement but don't say over what. They don't say whether those bearings are hybrids or pure ceramics although they hint at them being hybrid steel/ceramic bearings. They claim the bearings are hand made. Bearings are not tapestries, they're best made and assembled by machines.
> They make claims such as 100% smoother, x-much harder etc etc. They claim their ceramic (Silicon nitride) balls are harder than other balls made from the same material. It goes on and on.
> ...


Wow such knowledge from a man who, on another thread, didn't even know why a deep section aero wheel could be a hindrance when climbing or how wheel stiffness is experienced when riding.
Isn't the 'copy and paste' function a wonderful invention? makes anybody seem like a University Professor!!


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## Yellow Saddle (7 Feb 2015)

gds58 said:


> Wow such knowledge from a man who, on another thread, didn't even know why a deep section aero wheel could be a hindrance when climbing or how wheel stiffness is experienced when riding.
> Isn't the 'copy and paste' function a wonderful invention? makes anybody seem like a University Professor!!


I have no idea what you are talking about regarding wheels but you do seem like you have some sort of stalking obsession with me. You are pretty creepy. As for the second acquisation, I'll take that as an accusation of plagiarism. I suggest you either prove that I've plagiarized something or you withdraw your statement.


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## raleighnut (7 Feb 2015)

Ooooh,


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## gds58 (7 Feb 2015)

Yellow Saddle said:


> I have no idea what you are talking about regarding wheels but you do seem like you have some sort of stalking obsession with me. You are pretty creepy. As for the second acquisation, I'll take that as an accusation of plagiarism. I suggest you either prove that I've plagiarized something or you withdraw your statement.


Clearly you suffer from short memory syndrome as well, here's a link to your comments on the 'Aero Wheels' thread just a few days ago: https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/road-racing-aero-wheels.173743/
Regardng your comments concerning me 'stalking' you that is quite the most bizarre thing I've heard lately! Yes I have made some comments/criticisms of your posts and comments but strangley YOU have 'liked' my comments and posts which confused me no end. Your inconsistency is somewhat baffling and I am not the first to make these observations about your posts. It seems that you have little actual knowledge of these subjects but you like to stir things up a bit with your comments when all I'm trying to do is to help the OP by giving knowledgeable and informed answers on the matter. I stand by all my comments and withdraw none of them. By the way, what exactly is an 'acquisation' (second line of your quoted post) I'm reasonably well educated but I haven't come across this word before, is it something you have been accused of acquiring. Please enlighten me!


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## Yellow Saddle (8 Feb 2015)

gds58 said:


> Clearly you suffer from short memory syndrome as well, here's a link to your comments on the 'Aero Wheels' thread just a few days ago: https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/road-racing-aero-wheels.173743/
> *Regardng* your comments concerning me 'stalking' you that is quite the most bizarre thing I've heard lately! Yes I have made some comments/criticisms of your posts and comments but strangley YOU have 'liked' my comments and posts which confused me no end. Your inconsistency is somewhat baffling and I am not the first to make these observations about your posts. It seems that you have little actual knowledge of these subjects but you like to stir things up a bit with your comments when all I'm trying to do is to help the OP by giving knowledgeable and informed answers on the matter. I stand by all my comments and withdraw none of them. By the way, what exactly is an 'acquisation' (second line of your quoted post) I'm reasonably well educated but I haven't come across this word before, is it something you have been accused of acquiring. Please enlighten me!


https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/road-racing-aero-wheels.173743/page-2
There, go and play.
Every internet flame about spelling contains at least one spelling error. Speaking of which, what is Regardng? I'm still awaiting proof of my alleged plagiarism.
I still find your photographic memory of every Like and Comment I make pretty creepy. Brrrrr.


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## Citius (8 Feb 2015)

eml1909 said:


> Does anyone have any experience of these? http://ceramicspeed.com/sport/why-ceramicspeed/save-6-to-9-watts/
> 
> Do they work or are they a waste of money?
> 
> Any feedback gratefully received....



Do they work? As bearings, yes.
Are they a waste of money? Yes - especially if you are expecting to go measurably faster after fitting them. But they won't make you any slower, either.


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## gds58 (8 Feb 2015)

Yellow Saddle said:


> https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/road-racing-aero-wheels.173743/page-2
> There, go and play.
> Every internet flame about spelling contains at least one spelling error. Speaking of which, what is Regardng? I'm still awaiting proof of my alleged plagiarism.
> I still find your photographic memory of every Like and Comment I make pretty creepy. Brrrrr.


Oooh dear, I don't need to have a 'photographic memory' for these things as there's a clever little 'Alerts' tab at the top right corner of this page that has a little red flag on it every time somebody 'likes' or quotes one of my posts. It's dead clever as it means we don't need to go stalking anybody to see when they have liked our posts. Modern technology eh, ain't it great! Thanks for your interest in me by the way.
All the best, G


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