# La Vuelta 2013 (24 Aug - 15 Sept) **SPOILERS**



## smutchin (22 Jul 2013)

Only five weeks to go...

6 flat stages
13 mountain stages
1 team time-trial stage
1 individual time-trial stage
Stage 1 is the TTT, stage 2 is the first mountain stage. The sprinters might as well stay at home and watch this one on TV.


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## oldroadman (22 Jul 2013)

They will have their days, although a lot of suffereing to be done first. It's a not untypical Vuelta, Spain being very mountainous, but they have lately seemed to search out climbs at ridiculous percenntages. There's a point it stops being bike racing and becomes weightlifting on wheels. 20km at 5.5% with stretches of 10-15% is one thing, but 10km when it's over 25% in places is just daft. Then I always was a non-climber, or at best average, and hated the tiny ones who could torture us all!


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## smutchin (22 Jul 2013)

So, who are the main contenders?

Nibali, Rodriguez, Henao and Betancur seem to be the obvious candidates. Porte and Contador probably won't have it in them after the Tour. Personally, I'd love to see Betancur do it.

It'll be a shame if we don't get to see Uran there, but will Sky allow it?


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## thom (22 Jul 2013)

Sky's Columbiana to feature. Brailsford is 2/3 of the way to scoring top 3 finishes in each Grand Tour this year - can he complete that hat-trick ?

Who else ? J Rod, Contador, Valverde ? It could be a great opportunity for either of Henao or Uran^2 given the tour participants will be knackered and Nibali is unlikely to go (he's after the World Championship - we need a thread there as well - Froome says that will be his next target .


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## smutchin (22 Jul 2013)

oldroadman said:


> lately seemed to search out climbs at ridiculous percenntages.


 
Yes, it does all seem a bit silly at times.

The sprinters might win a stage or two but it certainly won't be a sprinter who wins the points jersey this year. Even the supposedly "flat" stage 3 finishes on a Cat 3 climb.


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## oldroadman (22 Jul 2013)

Agree there, an all rounder a la Sagan for points jersey, a strong climber who can TT a bit for the overall.
Uran may get a ride or not, as he is leaving Sky at the end of the season, if he got a really good result all the UCI points might go with him. I think the rules on that may be changing, though.


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## smutchin (22 Jul 2013)

If Nibali and Contador aren't there, I wonder if this could be Purito's best (last?) shot at getting a GT win. He kept his powder very dry for the first two weeks of the Tour and spent the last week riding himself into great shape. His experience might be enough to hold off the combined Colombian threat.

I don't rate Valverde's chances of overall victory - he put too much into the Tour.


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## Slaav (23 Jul 2013)

Nibali for the win surely?


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## Flying_Monkey (23 Jul 2013)

oldroadman said:


> Uran may get a ride or not, as he is leaving Sky at the end of the season, if he got a really good result all the UCI points might go with him. I think the rules on that may be changing, though.


 
I'd say it was about time Henao got a shot at a GT anyway.


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## thom (23 Jul 2013)

Slaav said:


> Nibali for the win surely?


I think he is focusing on the World Championship in Italy, which could be hilly enough for him. If so, I imagine him missing the Vuelta.


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## smutchin (23 Jul 2013)

How about the usual suspects trying to salvage something from a season of performing below expectations - JVDB, Brajkovic, Gesink...

And who will be flying the flag for Spain apart from Purito - Igor Anton? Txurruka? Izagirre? Mate? Herrada? Lobato?


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## rich p (23 Jul 2013)

Blimey, maybe Wiggins should make a come-back - he could win this with the number of no-shows!


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## Noodley (23 Jul 2013)

I reckon we should enter Team CC, we could pi ss it


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## 400bhp (23 Jul 2013)

Might try and get over there for a weekend and watch the odd stage.


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## rich p (23 Jul 2013)

Noodley said:


> I reckon we should enter Team CC, we could pi ss it


Well, we could pi ss it up, if we took Delftse Post's beer fridge.


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## Flying_Monkey (9 Aug 2013)

Flying_Monkey said:


> I'd say it was about time Henao got a shot at a GT anyway.


 
And it looks like Henao will be Sky's protected rider: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/henao-given-carte-blanche-for-the-vuelta


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## rich p (9 Aug 2013)

Flying_Monkey said:


> And it looks like Henao will be Sky's protected rider: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/henao-given-carte-blanche-for-the-vuelta


If Uran wasn't moving on, I'd have thought he deserved the chance of leadership after sacrificing his chances at the Giro in the service of Wiggins and still finishing 2nd.


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## lukesdad (9 Aug 2013)

5 weeks ! Things must be slow


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## smutchin (9 Aug 2013)

rich p said:


> If Uran wasn't moving on, I'd have thought he deserved the chance of leadership after sacrificing his chances at the Giro in the service of Wiggins and still finishing 2nd.


 
Yeah, it's a shame, really. I agree he deserves a shot at it but he's still young enough that he'll get plenty more opportunities.

Quite excited about the possible future prospect of a GT in which the main contenders are Uran vs Henao vs Quintana vs Betancur.


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## The Couch (12 Aug 2013)

smutchin said:


> How about the usual suspects trying to salvage something from a season of performing below expectations - JVDB, Brajkovic, Gesink...
> 
> And who will be flying the flag for Spain apart from Purito - Igor Anton? Txurruka? Izagirre? Mate? Herrada? Lobato?


I can't see JVCD back in time, he really had a nasty injury... back to focusing to next year's TdF somewhere isolated in Sierra Nevada
Brajkovic was saying anyway he was focusing on the Vuelta before the Tour, so he should be very motivated
Gesink... well, we've all seen him this year... a lot of good will, but he doesn't seem to have the legs (or ability to avoid falls/bad luck) to do much

Spaniards...
Intxausti was pretty decent in the Giro and I believe he is hoping to continue his last year's result in the Vuelta, especially with Valverde not letting go in the Tour after the wind debacle, he might be quickly become the factual leader of Movistar. (I don't think anyone can predict what Cobo will be like, but I guess most of us aren't really expecting a lot)
Verdugo also had a decent result last year and he seemed to have saved himself (a.k.a. no decent result at all so far this year)


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## The Couch (12 Aug 2013)

Last year, quite some Polish riders showed their potential in the Vuelta
... I wonder if we might see the same this year - especially if Majka would participate-

And maybe Seeldraeyers can continue his resurrection that he had during the Tour of Austria... if not for the GC, he should be able to pick a couple of suitable stages for him


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## thom (12 Aug 2013)

Not Vuelta related but spanish cycling comedy : the helicopter following the race managed to blow the second group of cyclists off the road !


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## The Couch (12 Aug 2013)

thom said:


> Not Vuelta related but spanish cycling comedy : the helicopter following the race managed to blow the second group of cyclists off the road !


Hopefully for the riders the same helicopter pilot won't be circulating at the Angliru (otherwise it might be the best duathlete that wins it)


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## thom (12 Aug 2013)

The Couch said:


> Hopefully for the riders the same helicopter pilot won't be circulating at the Angliru (otherwise it might be the best duathlete that wins it)


Aye - I guess what happened was doubly unfortunate for the 2nd group because while they got an almighty headwind I bet the guys up front got a great tail wind. 
It reminds me of someone's story about Giro time trials deliberately effected by the TV helicopter sitting between the local favourite and the foreign challenger.


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## perplexed (13 Aug 2013)

Will the Vuelta be visiting Gibralta...


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## Noodley (13 Aug 2013)

FDJ team announced for the Vuelta:
Arnaud Courteille, Kenny Elissonde, Alexandre Geniez, Laurent Mangel, Cédric Pineau, Thibaut Pinot, Anthony Roux, Geoffrey Soupe, Jussi Veikkanen

No Sandy Casar


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## rich p (14 Aug 2013)

Thibault will be praying that the rain in Spain stays mainly in the other places where he isn't riding downhill.


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## VamP (14 Aug 2013)

Noodley said:


> FDJ team announced for the Vuelta:
> Arnaud Courteille, Kenny Elissonde, Alexandre Geniez, Laurent Mangel, Cédric Pineau, *Thibaut Pinot*, Anthony Roux, Geoffrey Soupe, Jussi Veikkanen
> 
> No Sandy Casar


 

No descents at the Vuelta this year?


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## The Couch (14 Aug 2013)

Noodley said:


> FDJ team announced for the Vuelta:
> Arnaud Courteille, Kenny Elissonde, Alexandre Geniez, Laurent Mangel, Cédric Pineau, Thibaut Pinot, Anthony Roux, Geoffrey Soupe, Jussi Veikkanen


 
They should have taken Francis Mourey with them... he could have ridden a tandem and taken Pinot on it with every descent


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## Noodley (14 Aug 2013)

11 summit finishes innit


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## Kevin Airey (16 Aug 2013)

I'll be there at the summit of stage 8 on Peñas Blancas where I live in Estepona, near Marbella...


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## laurence (17 Aug 2013)

Flecha and Hoogerland for Vacansoleil... that's the daily breaks taken care of then.


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## VamP (19 Aug 2013)

Saxo have nominated Kreuziger as leader. I find that surprising, I thought they'd go with Majka.


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## The Couch (19 Aug 2013)

Since all of us had such a good prediction at the Tour de France and we were all - once again - reminded we know just about as much as Phill Liggett about cycling... (I had an especially bad prediction, flunking the exam with only 4 out 10 names right  ...showing monkeys could have probably done better)



The Couch said:


> My top 3 guess is:
> Va Va Froome
> Dirty Bertie
> Purito
> ...


 

So what are the guesses for this Vuelta?


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## thom (19 Aug 2013)

The Couch said:


> So what are the guesses for this Vuelta?


Dan Martin ?
Who else is going - is there a provisional start list anywhere ?


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## VamP (19 Aug 2013)

Purito has to be in the mix no?


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## smutchin (19 Aug 2013)

For me, it's between Betancur and Henao. And of those two, I favour Betancur. 

Is Purito even going to be there? If he is, he'll be in the mix for sure.

Edit: according to this site, he will be there - along with Nibali, Scarponi and Valverde:
http://www.cyclingfever.com/editie.html?_ap=startlijst&editie_idd=MjM2ODU=

Presumably the likes of Anton and Nieve will want to put themselves in the shop window too. (They haven't signed for another team yet, have they?)


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## VamP (19 Aug 2013)

Nibali, huh.

Anyone got their fantasy team together yet?


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## laurence (19 Aug 2013)

i shall cheer for Euskaltel Euskadi in their last grand tour. gora gora! i will miss them, they have been my team since before they entered the pro tour ranks.


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## The Couch (20 Aug 2013)

smutchin said:


> For me, it's between Betancur and Henao. And of those two, I favour Betancur.
> 
> Is Purito even going to be there? If he is, he'll be in the mix for sure.


 
I was very happy with the performance of Betancur in the Giro... if it wasn't for some other 23-year-old from Columbia, he would have had the best young-rider performance of the year.... However, I don't see him (at his age) doing twice in 1 year as well, so I guess him to be barely making top 10 at best.

Henao... well, it's finally his (Colombian) turn, so I expect him to give a good showing indeed.

Purito... he's actually my number 1 guess... I don't think Nibali will be as good as in the Giro (but even a little out-of-form he should be top 10 - if he is fully interested and isn't secretly just there to ramp up to the WC-) and looking at the last week of the TdF Valverde shouldn't be as strong as Purito.

I do have quite a good feeling about Sanchez, I see a top 5 for him.

Brajkovic and Pozzovivo are 2 others I see with a lot (of their season) at stake, so I expect them to be top 10 as well.

Besides the GC, Meersman could be the (smaller) Degenkolb of this year's Vuelta, the punchy finishes and the presence of - let's face it - second rate sprinters might entice him of wanting to carry the points jersey for the first 2 weeks.


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## thom (20 Aug 2013)

Sky will really like getting Henao on the podium - it was a stated goal of Brailsford to get on podiums for all 3 GTs.
Obviously their style so far has been to have a second guy up there too & Uran^2 is the natural option but I wonder if the politics mean that privilege passes to Cataldo, Lopez-Garcia or someone else.


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## The Couch (21 Aug 2013)

FYI... a tweet from Gilbert:


> Today I was able to bend my leg to 70 degres there is maybe a chance to start the Vuelta. Lets stay optimistic.


 
A couple of days ago BMC was saying Gilbert would definitely start... but this personal tweet makes it sound a bit more complicated
(Not that GIlbert had anything close to a decent season so far, but then again last year it was also in the Vuelta that he started to pick up some form)


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## Pedrosanchezo (21 Aug 2013)

Are we not fancying Nibali for this? I am sure i recall him focusing on the double (Giro & Vuelta) at the beginning of the year. 

If he's on form then it's his to lose. Henao should pull a podium as Sky seem to have it together in the longer races just now. He will surely relish the role. 

Outside bets or top tens, for me, will be:

Valverde
Purito
Dan Martin
Scarponi
Pinot
Ten Dam
Betancur
Fuglsang

Looking forward to it.


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## Noodley (24 Aug 2013)

Is this started yet? If so, could someone please tell Eurosport...all I can find on livestreams is tennis and US cycling


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## deptfordmarmoset (24 Aug 2013)

Noodley said:


> Is this started yet? If so, could someone please tell Eurosport...all I can find on livestreams is tennis and US cycling


 
Started and finished. Here's your top 10 after the TTT. The Procyclinglive times for the livestreams were wrong and were only corrected at the last moment. It was on before they said it would be. Athleticsliveontv.com also had a dodgy listing up. 

Result
1 Astana 0:29:59 
2 RadioShack-Leopard 0:00:10 
3 Omega Pharma-Quick-Step Cycling Team 0:00:16 
4 Sky Procycling 0:00:22 
5 Movistar Team 0:00:29 
6 Team Saxo-Tinkoff 0:00:32 
7 NetApp-Endura 0:00:35 
8 BMC Racing Team 0:00:36 
9 Orica-GreenEdge 0:00:45 
10 Belkin Pro Cycling Team 0:00:46


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## laurence (24 Aug 2013)

great ride by Netapp. Euskaltel not last in TTT shocker!


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## Pedrosanchezo (24 Aug 2013)

shoot the bed, totally forgot about this as i was riding a big un today. Face palm! 

If what @Noodley says though is correct then by recording it i would just be really pissed off instead. Bloody Ooooorosport!


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## Noodley (24 Aug 2013)

Oh well at least I only missed a TTT


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## themosquitoking (24 Aug 2013)

It was awesome, a spectator almost hit competitors in the face with a flag. Several times.


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## Booyaa (24 Aug 2013)

Not a good start for Dan Martin that. TTT's I find boring though, looking forward to the start tomorrow.


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## deptfordmarmoset (24 Aug 2013)

Noodley said:


> Oh well at least I only missed a TTT


 
Just to remind you, ITV4 are showing an hour's highlights at 10.00. That's in about 8 minutes.


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## Noodley (24 Aug 2013)

Mrs N and younger noodlette are watching some "talent" show guff, although it's probably on par with TTT highlights if I am being honest


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## Stonechat (24 Aug 2013)

Just watching the ITV4 highlights now


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## The Couch (24 Aug 2013)

Noodley said:


> Mrs N and younger noodlette are watching some "talent" show guff, although it's probably on par with TTT highlights if I am being honest


I am shocked to hear there are people out there willing to live together with your cranky behind 


Then again...if my girlfriend can cope with my bad sense of humour...


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## Noodley (24 Aug 2013)

The Couch said:


> I am shocked to hear there are people out there willing to live together with your cranky behind


 
I am a perfectly charming chap. I would even go as far as saying that I am excellent company. A nobber, but excellent company.


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## Mr Haematocrit (24 Aug 2013)

Theo Boss pulled with low cortisol levels

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/1...rting-Vuelta-a-Espana-by-his-Belkin-team.aspx

he is also not being replaced so Belkin are down a rider from the start


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## Flying_Monkey (25 Aug 2013)

Nibali is certainly taking this seriously... great TTT performance by Astana, outdoing a Cancellara-led RadioShack and a Martin-led OPQS.


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## Pedrosanchezo (25 Aug 2013)

He defo said earlier in the year that his goals were the double of Giro and Vuelta. A crazy fool would bet against him.


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## Noodley (25 Aug 2013)

A very rare Nico Roche stage victory!


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## deptfordmarmoset (25 Aug 2013)

Noodley said:


> A very rare Nico Roche stage victory!


 
I really didn't see that coming!


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## thom (25 Aug 2013)




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## Noodley (25 Aug 2013)

I see Thibaut Pinot managed to stay with the front of the peloton today and finish in 14th place


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## Basil.B (25 Aug 2013)

This year's Vuelta is going to be a cracker!


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## Crackle (25 Aug 2013)

Henao had a mare on that climb and Nibali into the race lead on day 2, that's going to be interesting.


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## themosquitoking (25 Aug 2013)

Will it make it harder for him being in the leaders jersey this early? I'm assuming there's more media pressure to go through and therefore less time relaxing but is that the only reason?


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## jifdave (25 Aug 2013)

Least uran can race now... Do sky just back him and try and podium, knowin he's then taking two podiums to opqs. 

How much do world tour points really count?


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## Booyaa (25 Aug 2013)

Noodley said:


> I see Thibaut Pinot managed to stay with the front of the peloton today and finish in 14th place


Luckily there were no downhills!


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## The Couch (25 Aug 2013)

Noodley said:


> I see Thibaut Pinot managed to stay with the front of the peloton today and finish in 14th place


The big descents still need to come


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## The Couch (25 Aug 2013)

jifdave said:


> How much do world tour points really count?


When you have the points from Froome, Porte (and even from Henao)... they really won't be missing Uran's points at the ens of this season


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## Flying_Monkey (26 Aug 2013)

Great ride by Roche, probably the best of his career so far, and a very controlled performance by Nibali - he's really got this one worked out, I think. I'm very disappointed in and for Henao though. Anyone can have a bad day, and I suppose it's good to get your bad day out of the way early on, but it means that Sky are likely to favour Uran now and Henao may not even get the chance to fight for the GC this time.


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## Stonechat (26 Aug 2013)

Yes interesting to see who is in good form at this end of the season. Nibali the one to beat, but too early yet. It's a long event and there is time yet for others to show


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## The Couch (26 Aug 2013)

Stonechat said:


> Yes interesting to see who is in good form at this end of the season. Nibali the one to beat, but too early yet. It's a long event and there is time yet for others to show


Indeed, no sense in writing Nibali in the books yet... way too many uphill stages to go (and no sense yet in speculating if he has his best form back)
A bit of a shame for him Brajkovic couldn't hold the jersey longer, it might have been a mental benefit for Nibali that it was someone else of his team and that he is not (yet) expected to be the sole leader of the team


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## The Couch (26 Aug 2013)

Not sure if this bodes well for the World Champion:






(then again he did finish the TT in group and is saying he doesn't feel any pain)


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## Stonechat (26 Aug 2013)

Calls for a remark a la Monty Python 'a mere flesh wound'!


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## Basil.B (26 Aug 2013)

Nearly made me bring my porridge back up!


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## thom (26 Aug 2013)

Crackle said:


> Henao had a mare on that climb and Nibali into the race lead on day 2, that's going to be interesting.


Aye - my predictions out of the window on day 2 !


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## The Couch (26 Aug 2013)

thom said:


> Aye - my predictions out of the window on day 2 !


Your prediction and most of the people around here 

Said in a voice with a sliver of desperation: "...but let's give it some time, a lot of (uphill) cycling still to go"


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## 400bhp (26 Aug 2013)

What happened to betancour??


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## The Couch (26 Aug 2013)

400bhp said:


> What happened to betancour??


Don't know, but looking at his result, I am assuming he might be very happy with his GC result from the Giro and is going to focus on a stage win this time(- off the top of my head - I believe he took 3 second places there)


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## The Couch (26 Aug 2013)

For today, I'm taking Meersman (from the "expected riders") ... with Cancellara as outside bet


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## Crackle (26 Aug 2013)

thom said:


> Aye - my predictions out of the window on day 2 !


I don't recall what they were, feel free to pretend you got it right. A bit like the commentator yesterday who swore he had the Nett App rider on his watch list even though he completely failed to identify him (Leopold Konig).


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## The Couch (26 Aug 2013)

Crackle said:


> I don't recall what they were, feel free to pretend you got it right. A bit like the commentator yesterday who swore he had the Nett App rider on his watch list even though he completely failed to identify him (Leopold Konig).



Did he try to make it look like he couldn't come up with the name?


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## The Couch (26 Aug 2013)

Crackle said:


> Henao had a mare on that climb


I read on the internet (whether that is trustworthy, no idea ) that Portal has said Henao's time loss is due to hunger flat and that Team Sky will stick with him as leader

You would've thought that Sky had learnt something from this year's TdF, right?

I am also assuming they stick with him unless he looses some more time and then it's (back) to plan B.


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## Booyaa (26 Aug 2013)

A minor fall for Henao, should get back on fine though.


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## laurence (26 Aug 2013)

what's with all the nice scenery? have i lost track of time and this is really il Giro?


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## thom (26 Aug 2013)

Crackle said:


> I don't recall what they were, feel free to pretend you got it right. A bit like the commentator yesterday who swore he had the Nett App rider on his watch list even though he completely failed to identify him (Leopold Konig).


my fantasy team selections - I thought Nibali would be out of the picture and Henao full centre...


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## Supersuperleeds (26 Aug 2013)

The Couch said:


> I read on the internet (whether that is trustworthy, no idea ) that Portal has said *Henao's time loss is due to hunger flat and that Team Sky will stick with him as leader*
> 
> You would've thought that Sky had learnt something from this year's TdF, right?
> 
> I am also assuming they stick with him unless he looses some more time and then it's (back) to plan B.


 
ITV 4 said this as well in the highlights show


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## The Couch (26 Aug 2013)

Looking at the results, Henao and Sanchez at least had a better day (although they still lost a tiny bit)... Intxausti and Betancur did not


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## Crackle (26 Aug 2013)

That seemed like a fairly chaotic stage but it looks like someone has been eating their curds and whey. Can he stay on his bike a few more days though. Horner makes Thomas look surefooted.


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## Flying_Monkey (26 Aug 2013)

Chris Horner... hmm.


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## Crackle (26 Aug 2013)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Chris Horner... hmm.


I'm pretty sure that's what Cancellera said or it may have been the way I chose to interpret it.


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## Doseone (26 Aug 2013)

Crackle said:


> I'm pretty sure that's what Cancellera said or it may have been the way I chose to interpret it.


 
I wondered whether he was having a dig too, but then he went on to say that he thought Horner really deserved the win, so I'm not sure.

Who are the commentators? The one guy sounds like he needs to clear his throat the whole time. Its very annoying.


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## The Couch (27 Aug 2013)

Crackle said:


> I'm pretty sure that's what Cancellera said or it may have been the way I chose to interpret it.


Isn't that his teammate?


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## Crackle (27 Aug 2013)

The Couch said:


> Isn't that his teammate?


 
Yeah, I may well have been transposing my own suspicions on to what he said, he's unlikely to finger a teammate isn't he?

At the very least he's a strange one is Horner. He rides a huge bike, talks likes he's a breathless 17 year old and unlike the self-promoting German bloke, makes no reference to the fact he's the oldest rider in the race. I dunno.


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## Stonechat (27 Aug 2013)

SKy's feed problems at the tdf were due to car problems, whichwere caused when ice stored in the car melted and flooded some part of the car! So they just lost touch with Froome and Porte, of they'd been there feed would have been taken on as normal


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## The Couch (27 Aug 2013)

The Couch said:


> Not sure if this bodes well for the World Champion:
> 
> (then again he did finish the TT in group and is saying he doesn't feel any pain)


 
Today, he is sounding different...
Gilbert: "I'm really afraid to fall again. I can not take risks, with the World Cup in September. The wound must heal on my knee."

(Then again, when he was sounding optimistic in the morning, he was invisible... so with that logic he might win it it today )


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## Herzog (27 Aug 2013)

Horner...? Good result or "not normal"...?


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## VamP (27 Aug 2013)

Herzog said:


> Horner...? Good result or "not normal"...?


 
*shrugs* 

Can't tell from one result. It was a pretty unusual stage the way it played out, if he rode a clever race, with his experience, he might well have had plenty left by the end, and his timing was superb. If he continues to produce strong performances then that's going to raise eyebrows for sure.


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## Hont (27 Aug 2013)

He's 41. He didn't believe that Armstrong cheated. He rides for Radioshack. Many eyebrows were raised a long time ago.


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## VamP (27 Aug 2013)

Hont said:


> He's 41. He didn't believe that Armstrong cheated. He rides for Radioshack. Many eyebrows were raised a long time ago.


 
I don't think there's much doubt that Horner was a doper. The question is; is he doping now?


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## raindog (27 Aug 2013)

I thought I just heard Sean K mention a 30% climb later this afternoon. Obviously, I was mistaken?


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## VamP (27 Aug 2013)

Only 29%


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## The Couch (27 Aug 2013)

raindog said:


> I thought I just heard Sean K mention a 30% climb later this afternoon. Obviously, I was mistaken?





VamP said:


> Only 29%


Yeah, like VamP said, it's a pretty flat stage today


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## deptfordmarmoset (27 Aug 2013)

raindog said:


> I thought I just heard Sean K mention a 30% climb later this afternoon. Obviously, I was mistaken?


 
''Nearly 30%'' I heard. Carlton Kirby mentioned 28%, I think, with riders using cassettes with up to 32 teeth. Grim, sounds grim.

They were also descending at 98kmph when they cut to the ads.


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## deptfordmarmoset (27 Aug 2013)

VamP said:


> Only 29%


 
Ah, I thought he said 28%. That extra 1% makes all the difference though - I'm out.


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## raindog (27 Aug 2013)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> I think, with riders using cassettes with up to 32 teeth.


Yes, heard that too, and some might have compacts up front.
29% - Jesus Christ


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## The Couch (27 Aug 2013)

Roche went for the left-over points on the top... I guess somewhere in the back of his mind he might be thinking about trying to go for the KOM jersey


----------



## jifdave (27 Aug 2013)

raindog said:


> Yes, heard that too, and some might have compacts up front.
> 29% - Jesus Christ


Not entirely sure what the big deal is. I regularly get up past 29% of a hill, on the odd occasion I make it all the was to the top too... ;-) But to be fair I ride a triple, the pros should try that, really helps.


----------



## The Couch (27 Aug 2013)

Strong push from Moreno that


----------



## raindog (27 Aug 2013)

EBH left it a bit too late - shame that.


----------



## Stonechat (27 Aug 2013)

YEs he did well


----------



## VamP (27 Aug 2013)

Jeez what happened to Majka? He's fallen right out of contention...

Great finish by Moreno.


----------



## thom (27 Aug 2013)




----------



## VamP (27 Aug 2013)

VamP said:


> Jeez what happened to Majka? He's fallen right out of contention...
> 
> Great finish by Moreno.


 

Turns out he'd just temporarily fallen off the results sheets. Move along now, nothing to see here...


----------



## y2blade (27 Aug 2013)

Catching up with today's stage, that 2km 30% bit must have been torture.


----------



## The Couch (27 Aug 2013)

VamP said:


> Turns out he'd just temporarily fallen off the results sheets. Move along now, nothing to see here...


He did have mechanical issues right before the Mirador de Ezaro, so it wouldn't have surprised me he lost time today, but he either did a strong climb or got back in the peloton with the groupes of the likes of Meersman


----------



## Flying_Monkey (28 Aug 2013)

The Vuelta's turned out to be fun for everyone except the sprinters, so far...

Henao seems to have recovered. He was back in the lead group yesterday, whereas Uran was in the second group. Not sure what Sky's strategy is, or even if they have one.

As for Horner, well he didn't have quite such an amazing day, so not quite a completely unbelievable performance, just an interesting one.


----------



## Crackle (28 Aug 2013)

Just on Horner, he wasn't fingered in the USADA report, he did cast aspersions on Armstrong before he joined him as a teammate, when they became firm friends, he did only begin to do well after the bio passport came in but he has said strange things about doping as well as wise ones. He's definitely an enigma.

Anyway, racing, great attack by Moreno and what a bloody strange set of decisions from the commissaires.


----------



## The Couch (28 Aug 2013)

Crackle said:


> ... and what a bloody strange set of decisions from the commissaires.


How do you mean?


----------



## Crackle (28 Aug 2013)

The Couch said:


> How do you mean?


 
Awarding a gap yesterday and reversing a decision on the gap the day before to a no gap decision when it was clearer than yesterdays.


----------



## Stonechat (28 Aug 2013)

Strava segment for Ezaro here with Laurens Ten Damm at the top
http://www.strava.com/segments/1239247


----------



## The Couch (28 Aug 2013)

Stonechat said:


> Strava segment for Ezaro here with Laurens Ten Damm at the top
> http://www.strava.com/segments/1239247


Well, the other Strava guys now have a target to beat  (and since the finishline wasn't on top of it, it's gotta to be at least still a beatable time)

Yesterday Matthews looked to still have a pretty strong punch left, he might be the one to watch-out for today
(if there are going to be enough teams interested in making it a sprint)


----------



## y2blade (28 Aug 2013)

Following in the office on here:
http://www.lavuelta.com/13/en/online/index.html?e=5

Wish I could watch it though...recording the live stuff on Eurosort later so will look forward to more stunning views


----------



## Stonechat (28 Aug 2013)

YEs it's fascinating in the tough course teams have less influence there has been no lead outs for sprinters so far and even though EBH got to the right area he made no impact. Think those who get over the mountains unscathed could be part of a sprint finish today


----------



## VamP (28 Aug 2013)

Stonechat said:


> YEs it's fascinating in the tough course teams have less influence there has been no lead outs for sprinters so far and even though EBH got to the right area he made no impact. Think those who get over the mountains unscathed could be part of a sprint finish today


 
It's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy as most teams don't bring their best sprinters due to the tough parcours, and then don't work as hard to bring escapees back, because they don't have their fast men with them.


----------



## The Couch (28 Aug 2013)

VamP said:


> It's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy as most teams don't bring their best sprinters due to the tough parcours, and then don't work as hard to bring escapees back, because they don't have their fast men with them.


Well.. I guess Garmin brought their best sprinter... and they are currently eating in the advantage of the escape, so they must have belief in Farrar

p.s. they are probably the only ones to still believe in him
p.p.s. I am fully aware I might be eating these words later today or the coming days


----------



## thom (28 Aug 2013)

breakaway have 20 secs with 6 km to go - the peloton are destined to catch 'em


----------



## thom (28 Aug 2013)

Michael Matthews for Orica Greenedge


----------



## luca bortolas (28 Aug 2013)

Flying_Monkey said:


> The Vuelta's turned out to be fun for everyone except the sprinters, so far...
> 
> Henao seems to have recovered. He was back in the lead group yesterday, whereas Uran was in the second group. Not sure what Sky's strategy is, or even if they have one.
> 
> As for Horner, well he didn't have quite such an amazing day, so not quite a completely unbelievable performance, just an interesting one.


----------



## laurence (28 Aug 2013)

FFS - Lyingit is back on ITV4. have i been dreaming and he's been absent from the highlights show? listening to paint dry.


----------



## Flying_Monkey (29 Aug 2013)

Matthews is coming into form nicely at the end of the season.


----------



## The Couch (29 Aug 2013)

The Couch said:


> ... Yesterday Matthews looked to still have a pretty strong punch left, he might be the one to watch-out for today ...


It's proven again that even a monkey randomly picking names, statistically is bound to have it correct at one time or another


----------



## VamP (29 Aug 2013)

The Couch said:


> It's proven again that even a monkey randomly picking names, statistically is bound to have it correct at one time or another


 
You know, smugness is a negative personal characteristic


----------



## The Couch (29 Aug 2013)

VamP said:


> You know, smugness is a negative personal characteristic


I know... monkeys are social animals and - according to Wikipedia - "generally considered to be intelligent".
But when I am feeling good about myself, I like to aim high


----------



## themosquitoking (29 Aug 2013)

The Couch said:


> It's proven again that even a monkey randomly picking names, statistically is bound to have it correct at one time or another


 
Yup, it happens the first time they play and from there it's all downhill.


----------



## MisterStan (29 Aug 2013)

The Couch said:


> I know... monkeys are social animals and - *according to Wikipedia* - "generally considered to be intelligent".
> But when I am feeling good about myself, I like to aim high


Well if you read it there, it must be true....


----------



## The Couch (29 Aug 2013)

Tony Martin apparently decided to put some practice in today for the World Championship Time Trial


----------



## VamP (29 Aug 2013)

The Couch said:


> Tony Martin apparently decided to put some practice in today for the World Championship Time Trial



Is he going to ride the stage on his TT bike


----------



## The Couch (29 Aug 2013)

VamP said:


> Is he going to ride the stage on his TT bike


Good point, somebody should propose that to Lefevre... he's got enough time to stop and switch for another bike anyway


EDIT:
Nope, they didn't switch the bike (yet)





Must be weird for him... driving solo for so long without those middle handle bars


----------



## Herzog (29 Aug 2013)

Second time in recent memory he's pinged off the front...must fancy a spot of training


----------



## The Couch (29 Aug 2013)

We might see other names at the finishline today: Howard for OGE, Fenn for OPQ, Sinkeldam for Argos... then again if either Meersman or Matthews should sprint and (get close to) win, they'll take the Points Jersey


----------



## Stonechat (29 Aug 2013)

What a glorious effort by Martin. Doomed I fear though


----------



## The Couch (29 Aug 2013)

That was toooo close to believe


----------



## thom (29 Aug 2013)

OMFG - Tony Martin passed in the final 10 m - gutted for him


----------



## raindog (29 Aug 2013)

Feckin b@stards!!! - Martin almost got that


----------



## Stonechat (29 Aug 2013)

Chapeau Martin - what a try


----------



## themosquitoking (29 Aug 2013)

That was incredible, what a shame he couldn't hold on.


----------



## Spartak (29 Aug 2013)

Unbelieveable  

Great ride from Tony Martin !


----------



## VamP (29 Aug 2013)

Mental


----------



## jifdave (29 Aug 2013)

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uENh7c2PbP4&feature=youtube_gdata_player
poor bugger


----------



## Herzog (29 Aug 2013)

Great ride - what started as a speculative effort turned into an almost historic win. Show's he's coming into good form after an injury plaqued season.


----------



## y2blade (29 Aug 2013)

Heartbreaking ride for Tony Martin...what a day!!!!


----------



## 400bhp (29 Aug 2013)

Blimey!!!


----------



## Pedrosanchezo (29 Aug 2013)

Just think of the hurt Tony Martin caused there! One man, and it took a hell of a lot of effort and horse power to catch him then pass him on the line. 

Chapeau Martin.


----------



## beastie (29 Aug 2013)

Top effort that.


----------



## VamP (30 Aug 2013)

Are we going to see an attempt to go one better today, with Pinotti taking Tony Martin's place?


----------



## Herzog (30 Aug 2013)

Terrible road layout for the finish today, RAB after RAB! Interesting racing none the less.


----------



## thom (30 Aug 2013)

Zdenek Stybar by a tyre's width from Gilbert
Great finish again


----------



## jifdave (31 Aug 2013)

@DanMartin86: Sad to leave the vuelta but can't race with these birds flying round my head. I hit a hole or rock in the road. Down I went #poophappens


----------



## Crackle (31 Aug 2013)

Shame for Dan Martin. Garmin didn't have a good day. Report said about 1200 Swiss Francs of fines for them too.


----------



## thom (31 Aug 2013)

jifdave said:


> @DanMartin86: Sad to leave the vuelta but can't race with these birds flying round my head. I hit a hole or rock in the road. Down I went #poophappens


That's a shame.
Am I bad for resenting him for dropping out given he's in my fantasy team ?


----------



## VamP (31 Aug 2013)

thom said:


> That's a shame.
> Am I bad for resenting him for dropping out given he's in my fantasy team ?


 
Of course not, he's let you down!


----------



## thom (31 Aug 2013)

Leopold Konig takes the stage & Nico Roche the lead on GC !


----------



## 400bhp (31 Aug 2013)

Whoaaa-didn't think Roche got the GC. Great

I like Konig - great attacking rider.


----------



## Noodley (31 Aug 2013)

Great to see Roche finally doing something after many years of never quite getting there.


----------



## beastie (1 Sep 2013)

What a disappointment it is to see Basso doing well, and Horner, and Valverde. Ggrrrr


----------



## thom (1 Sep 2013)

Moreno gets it & likely the GC lead by 1 sec after a fierce uphill final sprint!


----------



## raindog (1 Sep 2013)

Amazing transformation in Nico Roche


----------



## Noodley (1 Sep 2013)

Bad day for Kreuziger, did something go wrong for him or just a bad day? I didn't see the stage.


----------



## VamP (1 Sep 2013)

Noodley said:


> Bad day for Kreuziger, did something go wrong for him or just a bad day? I didn't see the stage.




He blew up yesterday, so I suspect he was taking it easy today, as his stated objective is to prepare for the Worlds. I expect him to go for a stage win at some point, unless he's ill but I haven't heard anything.


----------



## montage (1 Sep 2013)

beastie said:


> What a disappointment it is to see Basso doing well, and Horner, and Valverde. Ggrrrr



Personally I enjoy a good villain.


----------



## The Couch (1 Sep 2013)

montage said:


> Personally I enjoy a good villain.


But you don't want it to turn into "Heroes" and have no clue anylonger who the villains and who the heroes are


----------



## Flying_Monkey (2 Sep 2013)

Glad to see Moreno get a turn in red. He's deserved it so far.


----------



## The Couch (2 Sep 2013)

You want to hear something shocking? 

This is how the description of today's stage on the official website of the Vuelta starts:
"This is the first mountain stage of this year’s Vuelta..." 

...I'm guessing that is why the finish of yesterday wasn't even officially a "mountain", while most riders were looking half-dead when riding over the finishline


----------



## Stonechat (2 Sep 2013)

The Couch said:


> You want to hear something shocking?
> 
> This is how the description of today's stage on the official website of the Vuelta starts:
> "This is the first mountain stage of this year’s Vuelta..."
> ...


2 x 30% gradients and we haven't had a mountain stage yet?


----------



## rich p (2 Sep 2013)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Glad to see Moreno get a turn in red. He's deserved it so far.


 I find it hard to give the all-clear to Moreno.


----------



## Flying_Monkey (2 Sep 2013)

rich p said:


> I find it hard to give the all-clear to Moreno.



I'm only talking in the context of this race.


----------



## The Couch (2 Sep 2013)

Flying_Monkey said:


> I'm only talking in the context of this race.


Yep... the most interesting guys so far have been Moreno, Roche and Konig 
(and Horner isn't very far off either)


----------



## VamP (2 Sep 2013)

Tony Martin?


----------



## Crackle (2 Sep 2013)

This is a shocking thing to say but.........Liggett's commentary is actually good in this race. It must be the pairing with Sherwin that turns him into a Muppet but so far, correct identification of riders, insightful calls, good history of the riders......That's all.


----------



## thom (2 Sep 2013)

Crackle said:


> This is a shocking thing to say but.........Liggett's commentary is actually good in this race. It must be the pairing with Sherwin that turns him into a Muppet but so far, correct identification of riders, insightful calls, good history of the riders......That's all.


----------



## VamP (2 Sep 2013)

I was wondering if Kreuziger might not withdraw after yesterday's purgatory, but apparently there have been no withdrawals.

Edit: spoke too soon - Bart de Clerq has withdrawn after a crash in the neutralised zone. Talk about bad luck!


----------



## Noodley (2 Sep 2013)

Crackle said:


> This is a shocking thing to say but.........Liggett's commentary is actually good in this race. It must be the pairing with Sherwin that turns him into a Muppet but so far, correct identification of riders, insightful calls, good history of the riders......That's all.



Nurse, Mr Crackle seems to have been allowed to wander out of the ward on his own...


----------



## The Couch (2 Sep 2013)

On a depressing note: Bart De Clercq has fallen in the neutral zone before the official start and had to give up, a bit of a shame since he was my biggest and frankly (just about only hope) for some good Belgian results in the mountains

On a even more depressing note: I guess that de facto makes Francis De Greef (and Vanendert) de Lotto-Belisol leader(s) of the remainder of the Vuelta


----------



## The Couch (2 Sep 2013)

Konig in trouble (after 35 km)... apparently he was feeling sick this morning (again)


----------



## The Couch (2 Sep 2013)

That fall before the official start must have been horrific... it's raining people who are abandoning 
(and I am assuming many people to at least want to make the rest day to assess the damage)


----------



## VamP (2 Sep 2013)

The Couch said:


> Konig in trouble (after 35 km)... apparently he was feeling sick this morning (again)


 
Was he?

The live ticker on lavuelta.com just inferred he stopped for a mechanical but was back up and running with the pack. Looks like today might make a real selection, it's been a brutal day of racing before they even got to the climbs.


----------



## smutchin (2 Sep 2013)

The Couch said:


> You want to hear something shocking?
> 
> This is how the description of today's stage on the official website of the Vuelta starts:
> "This is the first mountain stage of this year’s Vuelta..."



I've been away for a week, only been able to catch odd bits and pieces of stages 1-9. Looks like I'm back just in time for things to start getting interesting...

Although it sounds like I've missed some pretty good racing already. And so has my pre-race favourite Betancur from the looks of it. Ho hum!


----------



## The Couch (2 Sep 2013)

VamP said:


> Was he?
> 
> The live ticker on lavuelta.com just inferred he stopped for a mechanical but was back up and running with the pack. Looks like today might make a real selection, it's been a brutal day of racing before they even got to the climbs.


According to Brian Smith "Konig feeling sick this morning #*LaVuelta* Let's hope he gets through the stage....."

And since he was struggling again at the top of this climb, there might be truth in it


----------



## VamP (2 Sep 2013)

The Couch said:


> According to Brian Smith "Konig feeling sick this morning #*LaVuelta* Let's hope he gets through the stage....."
> 
> And since he was struggling again at the top of this climb, there might be truth in it


 

Ah well fingers crossed he'll get through today...


----------



## The Couch (2 Sep 2013)

Horner looking like he is 24 again


----------



## raindog (2 Sep 2013)

Horner again 
another good ride from Nico Roche


----------



## Hont (2 Sep 2013)

The Couch said:


> Horner looking like he is 24 again


----------



## smutchin (2 Sep 2013)

Leaving out Nibali, the rest of the top 5 on GC have an average age of 36.


----------



## VamP (2 Sep 2013)

I don't have a good feeling about this...


----------



## beastie (2 Sep 2013)

Great effort by Roche to just about hang in there. Horner at 42 is able to burn off up the hill and when Nibali went, Horner was still pulling time on him. No es posible.


----------



## smutchin (2 Sep 2013)

Possible? I don't know. Horner has raced a lot less this year than the other GC contenders so is probably a lot fresher than them... 

What I do know is that he's a wilfully shortsighted Lance apologist, which is reason enough not to like him.


----------



## Noodley (2 Sep 2013)

Nocentini is also having a late flourish of youth...

edit - or he has been, not seen today's results yet.


----------



## thom (2 Sep 2013)

smutchin said:


> Possible? I don't know. Horner has raced a lot less this year than the other GC contenders so is probably a lot fresher than them...


I think if he's up to no good then we'll find out, so as regards his current sporting achievement he's to be given the benefit of the doubt.


----------



## Noodley (2 Sep 2013)

Noodley said:


> I reckon we should enter Team CC



Looking at the average age of the GC I reckon we'd not have looked out of place...


----------



## 400bhp (2 Sep 2013)

Not sure what to make of that.

Wonder whether it was more of Nibali etc underestimating Horner.


----------



## Flying_Monkey (3 Sep 2013)

It's true that Horner is fresh having come back from a long lay-off but on the other hand, he's also lacking race conditioning and he's 42. He's always had this kind of pattern of form though - on top of the world in one race and then rubbish the next. Coupled with his connections and belief in Lance, it does make one at least have suspicions.


----------



## Strathlubnaig (3 Sep 2013)

Only saw the ITV4 highlights yesterday, with sound off (offshore, on the treadmill...) so can anyone tell me why Fenn and De Gendt were binned ? Were they guilty of causing the neutral stage crash or something ??


----------



## deptfordmarmoset (3 Sep 2013)

Strathlubnaig said:


> Only saw the ITV4 highlights yesterday, with sound off (offshore, on the treadmill...) so can anyone tell me why Fenn and De Gendt were binned ? Were they guilty of causing the neutral stage crash or something ??


If I heard correctly, De Gendt got caught behind the crash and then got DQ'd for excessive car drafting. They didn't know what had happened to Fenn.


----------



## Stonechat (3 Sep 2013)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> If I heard correctly, De Gendt got caught behind the crash and then got DQ'd for excessive car drafting. They didn't know what had happened to Fenn.


Think it was the same , but stand to be corrected


----------



## The Couch (3 Sep 2013)

smutchin said:


> Leaving out Nibali, the rest of the top 5 on GC have an average age of 36.


 
...and there are people putting question marks that Sven Nijs has still been quite good the last years (in the supersmall sport that is cyclocross)... he was just 36 this season


----------



## thom (3 Sep 2013)

Flying_Monkey said:


> It's true that Horner is fresh having come back from a long lay-off but on the other hand, he's also lacking race conditioning and he's 42. He's always had this kind of pattern of form though - on top of the world in one race and then rubbish the next. Coupled with his connections and belief in Lance, it does make one at least have suspicions.


To be fair to him, he just came second in the Tour of Utah which finished Aug 11'th.


----------



## rich p (3 Sep 2013)

I'm absolutely baffled by this. Horner was only ever an above average rider, who is now thrashing some of the best climbers in the peloton up the mountains.
I know he's an Armstrong apologist but that's not quite enough to nail him.
Nibali wasn't at his best at the Eneco tour and JRod and Valverde did the TdF but even so it seems implausible.
I'm finding it hard to believe that anyone would be so daft to juice up at 42, to such an extent, and not expect to get busted.
If he's clean, are the others just tired, not 100%fit or has Horner suddenly improved?
And with respect to Thom, 2nd in the Tour of Utah doesn't necessarily indicate beating Nibs and Purito up hills.
As I said above, I'm baffled!


----------



## Crackle (3 Sep 2013)

As I said before, he wasn't fingered in the USADA report and he used to speak out against Lance until they became best buddies. Still, it smells doesn't it.


----------



## thom (3 Sep 2013)

rich p said:


> And with respect to Thom, 2nd in the Tour of Utah doesn't necessarily indicate beating Nibs and Purito up hills.


No but then Nibs & Purito chose not to show up ;-)
Look I'm not taking much of a position here but I think it will come out if he's up to no good.
He was smart yesterday, picking a good time to attack. Remember he suffered a lot the day after his other stage win ? 
I just think people are picking on him a bit soon. Some people picked on Froome during the tour as well remember...


----------



## Old Tom (3 Sep 2013)

Radioshack could go all Sky on us and reveal the data...

As cycling has started sorting itself out I've tried to defend it from detractors who say you can't trust the winners. Aside from the issue that, to me, this is true of just about any sport, I think it's reasonable to take the view that unless you've got a good reason, you've got to take results at face value. Otherwise, what's the point?

But this one does defy reasonable explanation for me. Like rich p I find it hard to believe that anyone would do it this way. But then again, there's always someone prepared to take the risk or who simply doesn't give a toss. I could be shown to be wrong about Horner, but for me this has taken the edge off what was turning into a really exciting and interesting GT. Is it wrong to hope that someone knocks Horner off his perch sooner rather than later?


----------



## Flying_Monkey (3 Sep 2013)

rich p said:


> I'm absolutely baffled by this. Horner was only ever an above average rider, who is now thrashing some of the best climbers in the peloton up the mountains.



To be fair, that's not quite true. If you look at his palmares, he's had plenty of wins and placings in stage races, almost always mountainous ones. He's just never been consistent, which means when he does put in one of his irregular great performances, it always seems to come out of nowhere.


----------



## raindog (3 Sep 2013)

What was odd, was the fact that Horner had 48 seconds on the group of 5 or six when Nibali put that massive Froome-like attack in and dropped the group and rode flat out for the rest of the climb. You would have thought that he would've taken 5 or 10 seconds at least, out of Horner's lead, but at the finish it was still 48 seconds!
And normally, when someone starts performing like this, we've already observed a build-up of decent results over a season or two. Reminds me a bit of Cobo a couple of years ago.


----------



## smutchin (3 Sep 2013)

rich p said:


> I'm absolutely baffled by this. Horner was only ever an above average rider, who is now thrashing *some of the best climbers in the peloton* up the mountains.



Hmmm...

On yesterday's stage, the lead group on the final climb comprised:

Valverde - who has good form but clearly no longer has the climbing legs he used to be famous for, for reasons which are open to speculation.
Basso - who, at a sprightly 35, hasn't been one of the best climbers in the peloton for two years, for reasons which are open to speculation.
Roche - who, with all due respect, has never been one of the best climbers in the peloton, has never performed to the level expected of him... so how come no one is asking the same questions of him as they're asking of Horner? Is he finally becoming the rider he was always expected to be, is this a one-off exceptional performance, or is he just being made to look good by the level of competition in this race?
Nibali - who has had a punishing race schedule this year, but was still able to easily race away from the rest of the group when he finally decided to attack, and maybe should have won the stage but left it too late, possibly because he underestimated Horner, possibly deliberately because he didn't want to get back in Red too soon.
Rodriguez - who has good form but who also had a tough TdF.
Pinot - who seems to have rediscovered his mojo and maybe should have done better.

The average speed for the stage was about 41.6km/h, which seems fast but... I dunno. Within what's expected from a rider of Horner's calibre? The two big climbs were steep but not all that long. The rest of the stage was rolling.

Horner's performance in Utah may not necessarily be indicative of good form at this level, but that race would have featured similarly high temperatures, so perhaps he's better adjusted to the heat than some of his rivals.

All in all, I would say the available evidence isn't necessarily indicative of anything suspicious. As in no proof either way.

I still think Horner is a massive twat though.


----------



## thom (3 Sep 2013)

@smutchin I totally agree re Basso & Roche - I thought about mentioning them both actually but decided not as I think it is a shame if we are always pointing fingers and being fascinated by speculating who is doping. I'm prepared to believe your explanations that people are generally knackered, that the race is not quite at the sharp end, that perhaps tactics were not best played and that dopers will get caught in due course.


----------



## smutchin (3 Sep 2013)

thom said:


> perhaps tactics were not best played



This. When Nibali attacked, it looked like he'd just had enough of all the fannying about and rode away from the group very easily.


----------



## rich p (3 Sep 2013)

To be fair to me  I didn't point the finger but just indicated bafflement. I also pointed out other reasons that the opposition may be tired or tardy!
I hear what you're all saying cos I've run it around my head too but seeing Horner as a GT winner at 42 is stretching my credulity to breaking point.
Put it this way, I wouldn't have been putting 50 quid on him at the beginning of August!
Still, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt as clean until Hawkeye or Hotspot proves otherwise


----------



## rich p (3 Sep 2013)

Maybe GlowSpot in cycling though!


----------



## Crackle (3 Sep 2013)

I watched it again. Horner rode away slowly and no one went with him because they all seemed to be watching each other, then Nibali had a test dig and then went. It wasn't long after that that the road flattened slightly and therefore the gaps everyone put in stayed roughly the same. All knew it was a rest day today and a TT after, which may have influenced Horner's thinking, he certainly said after that he didn't expect to be in red at the end of the TT.


----------



## smutchin (3 Sep 2013)

rich p said:


> To be fair to me  I didn't point the finger but just indicated bafflement.



To be fair to you, the reply was to your post but not aimed at you specifically, more a general evaluation of how I see things.



> Still, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt as clean until Hawkeye or Hotspot proves otherwise



I'm giving him the benefit of nothing. He's a nobber and I reckon very probably a doper, past or present or both. I just don't see any tangible evidence of doping in his performance yesterday.


----------



## rich p (3 Sep 2013)

Like Crackle, I'm surprised nothing came up in the USADA report if he was part of the inner ring.


----------



## Hont (3 Sep 2013)

Estimated power for Horner yesterday 6.2 W/Kg. Age 41. You've got to be kidding me.

Is Horner facing the same accusations that Froome faced in the Tour? If not, why not?


----------



## smutchin (3 Sep 2013)

Hont said:


> Is Horner facing the same accusations that Froome faced in the Tour?



Apparently, yes, he is.

Where is that estimate from? It does look a bit... interesting.


----------



## Crackle (3 Sep 2013)

Hont said:


> Estimated power for Horner yesterday 6.2 W/Kg. Age 41. You've got to be kidding me.
> 
> Is Horner facing the same accusations that Froome faced in the Tour? If not, why not?


 
For 5k, why not.


----------



## VamP (3 Sep 2013)

smutchin said:


> I'm giving him the benefit of nothing. He's a nobber and I reckon very probably a doper, past or present or both. I just don't see any tangible evidence of doping in his performance yesterday.



TBH you are never going to get tangible evidence of doping from performance, but watching him him ride away yesterday left me.... well, kinda hollow.


----------



## beastie (3 Sep 2013)

Hont said:


> Estimated power for Horner yesterday 6.2 W/Kg. Age 41. You've got to be kidding me.
> 
> Is Horner facing the same accusations that Froome faced in the Tour? If not, why not?


Where does the 6.2 come fae?


----------



## 400bhp (3 Sep 2013)

Was thinking about this a bit more today. Perhaps he believes he has little to - wins and retires.

Doping ban less important.


----------



## rich p (3 Sep 2013)

beastie said:


> Where does the 6.2 come fae?


 Dunno where it originated but mentioned here...
_"So the jury is still out for me. His power perfomance today was incredible, but he has been making his power data available for years now and people more knowledgable than me on the matter say it is consistent and credible. He has kept his power, just lost weight this year so he was able to to produce something like 6.2 Watts Per Kilo today which is super impressive if clean. "_
http://cyclingbetting.co.uk/vuelta-a-espana-stage-11-preview


----------



## The Couch (3 Sep 2013)

I am hoping that if there is something fishy going on, it will show in the results, however the Vuelta doesn't really have the reputation for having a lot of positive checks popping up (even although the Vuelta has had "strange performances" before, e.g. Mosquera, Cobo)


----------



## The Couch (4 Sep 2013)

Tony sets a new best at the first intermediate... let's see if he can keep it up(like if there would be any doubt about it )... still Westra had a surprisingly strong second and third piece (or the Spanish screwed his first intermediate time)


----------



## The Couch (4 Sep 2013)

Fabian faster than Martin at 2nd intermediate... which might mean the uphill is not that easy -since on flat, Martin has no competition-
(and that climbers like Nibali, might get pretty close as well to these times)


----------



## raindog (4 Sep 2013)

Nibali da man.
Thank God Horner only came 20th


----------



## rich p (4 Sep 2013)

raindog said:


> Nibali da man.
> Thank God Horner only came 20th


 Yep, it would have stretched credulity too far if he'd stormed this one!
Pozzovivo did an uncharacteristically good ride though


----------



## thom (4 Sep 2013)

rich p said:


> Yep, it would have stretched credulity too far if he'd stormed this one!
> Pozzovivo did an uncharacteristically good ride though


We need a new smiley all for you rich - eyebrows raised about a foot above the head...


----------



## rich p (4 Sep 2013)

thom said:


> We need a new smiley all for you rich - eyebrows raised about a foot above the head...


 I'm a beguiling mix of naïve believer and perennial sceptic


----------



## 400bhp (4 Sep 2013)

Nice to see a different demeanor from Roche


----------



## thom (5 Sep 2013)

Funny spanish interview with Horner that slips through French and English. He doesn't give up trying.


----------



## rich p (5 Sep 2013)

thom said:


> Funny spanish interview with Horner that slips through French and English. He doesn't give up trying.


 Hilarious!!! I'm warming to him!
The most impressive thing was his understanding of the questions even if his replies were less fluent.


----------



## thom (5 Sep 2013)

rich p said:


> Hilarious!!! I'm warming to him!
> The most impressive thing was his understanding of the questions even if his replies were less fluent.


There's more :


----------



## raindog (5 Sep 2013)

Basso and Roche going for intermediate sprints today.


----------



## raindog (5 Sep 2013)

Wow, tremendous finish from Gilbert, but feel a bit gutted for EBH. Fabulous racing for the last 5ks though.


----------



## thom (5 Sep 2013)

raindog said:


> Wow, tremendous finish from Gilbert, but feel a bit gutted for EBH. Fabulous racing for the last 5ks though.


missed it - did Gilbert finally win something in the rainbow stripes ?


----------



## raindog (5 Sep 2013)

Yup. And tomorrow could suit him too.


----------



## thom (5 Sep 2013)




----------



## Noodley (5 Sep 2013)

Today's finishing 5k brought to you by super mario kart, I was half expecting flying banana skins and ghosts


----------



## Strathlubnaig (5 Sep 2013)

That was a great finish, so pleased to see Giblets grab a win, maybe he is peaking at the right time and will get the rainbow stripes again !


----------



## Crackle (5 Sep 2013)

It's about time he won, though I wish Eddie had hung on.


----------



## smutchin (5 Sep 2013)

Missed the action today - actually had some work to do this afternoon! - but pleased to hear about the result, since I have Gilbert in my fantasy team. Sounds like some good racing.


----------



## Flying_Monkey (6 Sep 2013)

That was certainly not a stage for the average sprinter with that nasty ramp at the end! Shame for EBH, but Gilbert has needed a win. And I guess that makes his demand to be sole Belgian leader for the Worlds a bit more credible now...


----------



## VamP (6 Sep 2013)

What happened to de Weert? Big crash during the TT, apparently...


----------



## The Couch (6 Sep 2013)

VamP said:


> What happened to de Weert? Big crash during the TT, apparently...


Fractures in his neck, tibia, clavicle and a torn patellar tendon

Yep... quite abig crash indeed


----------



## Slaav (6 Sep 2013)

Flying_Monkey said:


> That was certainly not a stage for the average sprinter with that nasty ramp at the end! Shame for EBH, but Gilbert has needed a win. And I guess that makes his demand to be sole Belgian leader for the Worlds a bit more credible now...


 
Do bear in mind that I am still quite new to this malarkey but was it simply a case of EBH went too early and Gilbert managed to catch his wheel and get that sling shot around him at the death? I seem to recall that this has happened to him a few times now (and I don't mean this Vuelta.)

EBH seems to get at or near the front but not quite have that 'killer' instinct that we see from the likes of Cav and yesterday, Gilbert?


----------



## VamP (6 Sep 2013)

Bloody typical. The only one in the break that's in my FL team, Intauxsti, and he bloody well crashes a few miles from end.


----------



## deptfordmarmoset (6 Sep 2013)

VamP said:


> Bloody typical. The only one in the break that's in my FL team, Intauxsti, and he bloody well crashes a few miles from end.


Good somersault though!


----------



## VamP (6 Sep 2013)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> Good somersault though!


 

Do I get points for a somersault?


----------



## Stonechat (6 Sep 2013)

I hadn't heard of Borguil either


----------



## rich p (6 Sep 2013)

It always seems a bit feeble when the people in the break refuse to chase down an escapee lest they assist someone else. Thus they all deny themselves a chance after flogging their guts out all day to get into that position.
Good luck to that bloke wot won it though!


----------



## smutchin (6 Sep 2013)

Stonechat said:


> I hadn't heard of Borguil either



He's come close to winning a few times already but this, I believe, is his first pro win. He won the Tour de l'Avenir last year though. Seems like quite a prospect. 

He completely mugged the others in the breakaway. What on earth were they thinking, allowing him to escape like that so close to the finish?


----------



## ColinJ (6 Sep 2013)

smutchin said:


> He completely mugged the others in the breakaway. What on earth were they thinking, allowing him to escape like that so close to the finish?


_"Your turn, Claude"_ ...?


----------



## Noodley (6 Sep 2013)

As Manhattan Transfer sang "Chanson d'amour...alto de rat penat"


----------



## zizou (6 Sep 2013)

Just been catching up with the highlights of the last week been some good racing.

Regards Horner - the performances do raise an eyebrow but that has already been covered so wont add any more.. However on a more general point - going back a few years now he's been an unpopular rider on online forums (this is before his comments about Armstrong last year). Is there a particular reason for this? I'm not aware of any evidence or substantial rumours linking him to doping programmes or specific doctors (unlike the likes of Hincapie and Zabriskie etc before their confessions yet they managed to remain as popular riders) so what is the deal with Horner?


----------



## raindog (7 Sep 2013)

Brussels Cycling Classic is on while we're waiting
http://www.footstream.tv/channel6.html


----------



## Stonechat (7 Sep 2013)

L L Sanchez has fallen


----------



## Stonechat (7 Sep 2013)

and Basso retired!


----------



## raindog (7 Sep 2013)

Big grins from Ratto through those last corners. Nice to see.


----------



## Stonechat (7 Sep 2013)

Chapeau Ratto .. or should that be sombrero Ratto


----------



## montage (7 Sep 2013)

Been unable to follow every stage, but christ Sky have got this Vuelta wrong. Really surprised at Uran and Henao, especially as I thought they would both be looking to be in tip top condition this time of year with the worlds coming up. Looks like Roche had a stinker today, less so than Basso though


----------



## Noodley (7 Sep 2013)

That was a brutal stage, made to look quite easy by that cheating nobber Horner. 
Everyone else was on the limit whilst he just seemed to glide along - he's either on the juice or I'm Mother Teresa


----------



## montage (7 Sep 2013)

Noodley said:


> That was a brutal stage, made to look quite easy by that cheating nobber Horner.
> Everyone else was on the limit whilst he just seemed to glide along - he's either on the juice or I'm Mother Teresa



Horner on the juice and Noodley dressing as a nun .... both involve a bad habit


----------



## 400bhp (7 Sep 2013)

Noodley said:


> That was a brutal stage, made to look quite easy by that cheating nobber Horner.
> Everyone else was on the limit whilst he just seemed to glide along - he's either on the juice or I'm Mother Teresa



Not looking good is it.

He's feckin older than me.

He's gotta be thinking one last hurrah.


----------



## Noodley (7 Sep 2013)

400bhp said:


> He's feckin older than me.
> He's gotta be thinking one last hurrah.


 
His age is definitely one of the things that's sending out alarm bells; the oldest EVER. That's EVER! EVER...including all the "greats" of doping.


----------



## Slaav (7 Sep 2013)

Without draggin up old the old stuff yet again.... if someone's performance is a 'surprise' as it is really quite extraordinary, where does one draw the line?

i.e., Horner's age and performance? Wiggo's TdF win? Froomey's riding away in the mountains a la Pharmstrong?

If an exceptional performance signifies CERTAIN PEDs, then where does the line get drawn???? Either it is eyebrows raised = definite doping? Or it is 'let's wait and see'? or even 'finally he got it right'?

Difficult - thanks Pat!!! (Get that fat F****** out of post)


----------



## montage (8 Sep 2013)

Slaav said:


> Without draggin up old the old stuff yet again.... if someone's performance is a 'surprise' as it is really quite extraordinary, *where does one draw the line?*



At jokes about saints


----------



## Crackle (8 Sep 2013)

montage said:


> At jokes about saints


 The mountain bike groupset, is it that good?


----------



## thom (8 Sep 2013)

Slaav said:


> Without draggin up old the old stuff yet again.... if someone's performance is a 'surprise' as it is really quite extraordinary, where does one draw the line?


Is he foreign...?


----------



## Stonechat (8 Sep 2013)

Gilbert has pulled out today - this is last man standing


----------



## Noodley (8 Sep 2013)

Are there problems with live coverage again? The link I can get for eurosport is yesterday's stage


----------



## deptfordmarmoset (8 Sep 2013)

Noodley said:


> Are there problems with live coverage again? The link I can get for eurosport is yesterday's stage


Aren't you a bit early for the live coverage? I thought it was at 3pm.


----------



## Noodley (8 Sep 2013)

steephill had "live now" but maybe I am too early.


----------



## smutchin (8 Sep 2013)

Noodley said:


> That was a brutal stage, made to look quite easy by that cheating nobber Horner.
> Everyone else was on the limit whilst he just seemed to glide along - he's either on the juice or I'm Mother Teresa



Possibly a case of seeing what you want to see?

If anyone made that look easy, it was Nibali, who seemed to be toying with Horner on that last climb. He looks like he's going to win this race at a canter. 

Plus Horner did crack a bit - Nibali was finally forced to do some work in the final km and the gap to Purito and Sanchez was reduced to only a handful of seconds by the finish. 

The way Valverde flew up the climb after he'd had his magic beans was perhaps more "interesting".


----------



## smutchin (8 Sep 2013)

Terrifying descending by Geniez!


----------



## smutchin (8 Sep 2013)

And Pinot is going well too. Definitely got his downhill mojo back. Hurrah!


----------



## smutchin (8 Sep 2013)

"@mrconde: Dani Moreno is killing it right now. Only 14 riders left in the peloton. Wait, Horner is there too. He is rider 15. #LaVuelta"


----------



## Noodley (8 Sep 2013)

Chapeau Geniez! 

Allez FDJ!!!


----------



## smutchin (8 Sep 2013)

I'm trying my hardest to give Horner the benefit of the doubt but... increasingly, I'm ignoring the advice of my gut to do so.


----------



## rich p (8 Sep 2013)

I like this quote from CyclingNews re Basso yesterday...
...Ra_tto's win has boosted the moral of the team_
So they've decided to ride clean now?


----------



## rich p (8 Sep 2013)

Another Frenchie wins a stage!!!
One day, one of them may even go on to become a GT rider


----------



## Noodley (8 Sep 2013)

I'm just back in from a wee spin on my bike, wearing my FDJ top #sadoldman


----------



## Noodley (8 Sep 2013)

rich p said:


> Another Frenchie wins a stage!!!
> One day, one of them may even go on to become a GT rider


 
Pinot may develop into a contender, he's not too bad at TT as well as being a decent climber - and he seems to be making progress with his descending!


----------



## smutchin (8 Sep 2013)

...although he did get dropped on the final descent today.


----------



## 400bhp (8 Sep 2013)

smutchin said:


> ...although he did get dropped on the final descent today.



He was already dropped, along with Sanchez just before the couple of K downhill bit.. Sanchez caught them up on the descent then decided to do a suicide dive for the front.


----------



## 400bhp (8 Sep 2013)

Slaav said:


> Without draggin up old the old stuff yet again.... if someone's performance is a 'surprise' as it is really quite extraordinary, where does one draw the line?
> 
> i.e., Horner's age



He's almost 42!!

42!!!

42!!!!

It's one of the toughest sports in the world and a 42 year old is making it look relatively easy.

If (and it's a big if) it's down to him essentially (for clear reasons) not riding either the other 2 grande tours and most of the competition is fatigued then there's a lot to to be said for other riders doing the same.

Easily said than done though - eggs in one basket and all that.


----------



## Mattonsea (8 Sep 2013)

400bhp said:


> He's almost 42!!
> 
> 42!!!
> 
> ...


 I want to believe , and I know he has not done much ,but it is stretching my belief .


----------



## rich p (8 Sep 2013)

Noodley said:


> Pinot may develop into a contender, he's not too bad at TT as well as being a decent climber - and he seems to be making progress with his descending!


 I hope so. The world of cycling would be a better place with a genuine French contender especially in the TdF. Perhaps Pinot should join Sky and do see if he can produce some good numbers 
Actyually, it might even be a good idea for Sky to take some young French talent to see if they could develop them and it might also get the French public onside. I'm going to give Sir Dave a ring tomorrow.


----------



## montage (8 Sep 2013)

rich p said:


> I hope so. The world of cycling would be a better place with a genuine French contender especially in the TdF. Perhaps Pinot should join Sky and do see if he can produce some good numbers
> Actyually, it might even be a good idea for Sky to take some young French talent to see if they could develop them and it might also get the French public onside. I'm going to give Sir Dave a ring tomorrow.



I like it when the french lose


----------



## rich p (8 Sep 2013)

montage said:


> I like it when the french lose


 Yeah but you do have a French name though Monty


----------



## deptfordmarmoset (8 Sep 2013)

Thibault's problem descending, he'll never get to the bottom of it....


----------



## The Couch (8 Sep 2013)

montage said:


> I like it when the french lose





rich p said:


> Yeah but you do have a French name though Monty


which is why that's his excuse when he loses as well


----------



## Pedrosanchezo (9 Sep 2013)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> Thibault's problem descending, he'll never get to the bottom of it....


Sadly for Pinot i think it will be downhill from here.


----------



## Crackle (9 Sep 2013)

Horner in a corner, Pinot in a spiral, Gilbert gone but on the bright side, Nibali's not nobbled.


----------



## smutchin (9 Sep 2013)

I've lost count of the number of next big French prospects to get everyone's hopes up before revealing _pieds d'argile_.


----------



## smutchin (9 Sep 2013)

Just to compound the embarrassment of these supposed bright young prospects, it strikes me that Horner is literally old enough to be Pinot's dad.


----------



## Hont (9 Sep 2013)

smutchin said:


> Horner is literally old enough to be Pinot's dad.


His blood is probably not quite as old, though.


----------



## smutchin (9 Sep 2013)

Wow. Cracking finish to today's stage.


----------



## raindog (9 Sep 2013)

Barguil - a new Badger is born!


----------



## Stonechat (9 Sep 2013)

Yes and no disrespect to Nibali , I am glad that there is still life in the race and it is not settled yet


----------



## VamP (9 Sep 2013)

Hey, there is a Sky team in this year's Vuelta! I thought they hadn't turned up.


----------



## deptfordmarmoset (9 Sep 2013)

Did anyone understand a word of what Barguil just said?


----------



## The Couch (9 Sep 2013)

VamP said:


> Hey, there is a Sky team in this year's Vuelta! I thought they hadn't turned up.


They have indeed turned up, it's just that they prefer to collect 2nd place finishes 
(I think it's to keep the suspicions away)


Well... Barguil just Barged into Uran's party...3 days after doing the same to Nocentini, Mollema and Scarponi, that's strong!


----------



## The Couch (9 Sep 2013)

Nice to see both Valverde and Rodriguez gave it a good go... both of them still have their eyes on a better prize than they have now
(This to keep the competition between more than just Nibali and Horner)


----------



## raindog (9 Sep 2013)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> Did anyone understand a word of what Barguil just said?


Something about his DS telling him to save himself for next week, but he was told that the same day he won his first stage so he went for it anyway, and he felt confident for the sprint or summat. He's certainly not intimidated by bigger names - love his attacking attitude.


----------



## deptfordmarmoset (9 Sep 2013)

raindog said:


> Something about his DS telling him to save himself for next week, but he was told that the same day he won his first stage so he went for it anyway, and he felt confident for the sprint or summat. He's certainly not intimidated by bigger names - love his attacking attitude.


Thanks. If he'd said it in French I would have understood.


----------



## smutchin (9 Sep 2013)

I was disappointed for Uran, but I would have been even more disappointed for Barguil if he'd lost, so good result.

Enjoyed seeing Purito going on the offensive too.


----------



## raindog (9 Sep 2013)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> Thanks. If he'd said it in French I would have understood.


yes 
it was a dodgy accent all right - worra rider, though!


----------



## thom (9 Sep 2013)

Caption competition ?


----------



## smutchin (9 Sep 2013)

raindog said:


> yes
> it was a dodgy accent all right



Well, he is Breton after all.


----------



## rich p (9 Sep 2013)

thom said:


> Caption competition ?


Feck this is a piece of píss, I should have listened to Lance earlier.


----------



## Crackle (9 Sep 2013)

thom said:


> Caption competition ?


I know you know, you just can't prove it can you...


----------



## Noodley (9 Sep 2013)

thom said:


> Caption competition ?


 

How about "Noodley's right I'm juiced, but I'm smiling cos you lot gave me the 'benefit of the doubt' - how much more obvious do I need to be?"

Anyway great win for Barguil again, great bit of riding.


----------



## Noodley (9 Sep 2013)

Oh FFS, Jensie is joining ITV for the last 2 days!! Liggett and Jens in the same show! 

Bullshit bingo-a-go-go


----------



## smutchin (9 Sep 2013)

thom said:


> Caption competition ?



"You think I should be making this look harder? Lol!"


----------



## 400bhp (9 Sep 2013)

thom said:


> Caption competition ?



I have all the characteristics of a human being; blood,flesh, skin, hair; but not a single clear identifiable emotion; except for greed and disgust.


----------



## 400bhp (9 Sep 2013)

Awesome by Barguil today - waiting for Uran


----------



## Basil.B (9 Sep 2013)

Horner looks like he has been embalmed.
Great ride by Barguil, going to be a class act for sure.


----------



## Strathlubnaig (9 Sep 2013)

Noodley said:


> Oh FFS, Jensie is joining ITV for the last 2 days!! Liggett and Jens in the same show!
> 
> Bulls*** bingo-a-go-go


'kin A !!!


----------



## Mattonsea (9 Sep 2013)

Basil.B said:


> Horner looks like he has been embalmed.
> Great ride by Barguil, going to be a class act for sure.


 we know what he has used .............


----------



## lukesdad (9 Sep 2013)

thom said:


> Caption competition ?


"I'm doing this just to please that fekkin nobber Noodley"


----------



## smutchin (9 Sep 2013)

thom said:


> Caption competition ?



"Look, mum, no zimmer frame!"


----------



## deptfordmarmoset (9 Sep 2013)

thom said:


> Caption competition ?


''He hasn't read The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Vuelta. It's all down to 42!''


----------



## thom (9 Sep 2013)

thom said:


> Caption competition ?


Hey Vincenzo, does gurning make you go faster ? Lance told me about the look too but you just crack me up


----------



## rich p (9 Sep 2013)

Reading some of the above I have just realised that Chris Horner has a face that's been botoxed. It could be that he is in fact 57.


----------



## Stonechat (10 Sep 2013)

Horner has a face that reminds me of one of the characters from International Rescue


----------



## Noodley (10 Sep 2013)

Stonechat said:


> Horner has a face that reminds me of one of the characters from International Rescue


 

The cheating brother?


----------



## Crackle (10 Sep 2013)

Stonechat said:


> Horner has a face that reminds me of one of the characters from International Rescue


 It's definitely not Brains


----------



## The Couch (10 Sep 2013)

To fill the resting day....
Anybody wants to have a guess a what the top 5 will be at the end of the Vuelta
Can someone nibble Nibbles' lead away? 
Will it that Nibbler be Old McDonald or will his legs (finally) start asking to sit the f*** down?
Can the Spaniards do what comes natural to them and peak in the last week?
Can Roche scratch those few seconds loose from Pozzovivo?
Or can someone come back from even further behind (like a certain Pinot, who has shaken his fears away)?


----------



## smutchin (10 Sep 2013)

Peña Cabarga and Angliru still to come, this race is far from over... 

My predictions:
Nibbles will win overall - he had his bad day yesterday, he'll come back strong tomorrow. 
Horner is just taking the piss now, so he'll probably finish 2nd.
Next three places will be between Pinot, Purito, Pozzovivo and Valverde. I'll go for them to finish in that order - Pinot or Purito to nab the third podium spot, Valverde to get found out on the big climbs and slip to 6th place by the end. I admit this is possibly just wishful thinking.

Sanchez and Moreno will probably climb a few places on GC but have left themselves too much to do. Konig and Roche aren't strong enough climbers to deal with the Angliru so I think we'll see them slide - maybe even finish outside the top ten, though I hope I'm wrong on that.

Scarponi and Uran are both riding aggressively and getting stronger as the race goes on but are far too far behind on GC to be a threat. Kangert and Kiserlovski are looking strong but are riding for others.


----------



## thom (10 Sep 2013)

smutchin said:


> Peña Cabarga and Angliru still to come, this race is far from over...
> 
> My predictions:
> Nibbles will win overall - he had his bad day yesterday, he'll come back strong tomorrow.
> Horner is just taking the **** now, so he'll probably finish 2nd.


I'm not confident Nibali is secure yet - Horner has taken good time off him on a couple of occasions and with time bonuses, may well be able to do so again, particularly on something like the Angliru. 
I just think it is an indication that Nibali has had an exceedingly long season performing at a high level and may show more signs of that in the last week. 

I don't think the Giro or Tour were this close in the final week - the Vuelta has managed to serve up some interesting if less serious results again.


----------



## smutchin (10 Sep 2013)

thom said:


> I'm not confident Nibali is secure yet - Horner has taken good time off him on a couple of occasions and with time bonuses, may well be able to do so again, particularly on something like the Angliru.



Yeah, you're right - Cobo*cough* Horner could well do something like that.


----------



## The Couch (10 Sep 2013)

thom said:


> ...Horner may well be able to do so again, particularly on something like the Angliru.


It's kinda mind-blowing that we are considering the monster - that is the Angliru - to be best suited for a guy who is about as old as Snoop Dogg 
(and who is about 7 years older than the recently retired Sandy Casar - who I have the feeling off that he has been around forever)


----------



## The Couch (10 Sep 2013)

The Couch said:


> Anybody wants to have a guess a what the top 5 will be at the end of the Vuelta...


I'm gonna go for the wildest guess:

Valverde wins it, 
Horner 2nd, 
Nibali 3rd place
Purito misses the podium by an inch
Although Roche takes 5th place back (on the Pena Cabarga), Pozzovivo ends on a distant 5th place since he takes this spot back on the Angry Lou

(Which would mean my pre-race favourite doesn't even make the podium ... but hey, he's anyway going to do much better than Henao )

Can't see Sanchez or Konig doing much... they have consistently been the worst on the final climbs
Pinot has shwon eagerness to attack on the climbs, but he doesn't seem to have a good grasp yet of his strength to spread his efforts across the whole mountain and therefore often cracks in the last kilometer(s)


----------



## rich p (10 Sep 2013)

Nibali
Horner
Rodriguez
Valverde
Pozzovivo


----------



## smutchin (10 Sep 2013)

The Couch said:


> (Which would mean my pre-race favourite doesn't even make the podium ... but hey, he's anyway going to do much better than Henao )



At least your pre-race favourite is in the top 100.


----------



## Noodley (10 Sep 2013)

if Pinot gets a podium place then I'll be very happy.
if that cheating nobber Horner also gets busted I'll be happier


----------



## VamP (10 Sep 2013)

The Couch said:


> I'm gonna go for the wildest guess:
> 
> Valverde wins it,
> Horner 2nd,
> ...



Might be worth pointing out that Konig had a viral infection last week, and is now making a recovery. It's his first three week tour and he himself says he has no idea what his body will do in the last week. I wish him well.


----------



## Monsieur Remings (10 Sep 2013)

Time for a wild (and wishful) guess:

1. Purito
2. Nibali
3. Horner
4. Valverde
5. Pinot

I haven't seen much of the race due to work commitments but I'm not sure that Nibali is safe either after yesterday's stage where he was left rather isolated and unable to contend with the pace.

I also can't help thinking - maybe down to disappointment otherwise - that Rodriguez has a cunning plan (that probably involves riding fast up a mountain somewhere in Asturias). You heard it here first...


----------



## Old Tom (11 Sep 2013)

Monsieur Remings said:


> Time for a wild (and wishful) guess:
> 
> 1. Purito
> 2. Nibali
> ...


 
I'd take that - I'd love to see Rodriguez finish in red, but I don't think it'll happen. I reckon Nibali was just on an off-day on Monday and will do enough to protect his lead. Horner - who knows? He should have blown up by now, but he hasn't. I'm saddened that this doesn't make me smile. I just don't believe, I'm afraid. I think Purito's best hope now is that he puts time into Valverde and gets on the podium. (Maybe he'll get second place retrospectively.) I'll go Valverde and Roche for 4th and 5th.

But I say all that knowing that these are just my amateurish predictions on a race that is still very open and is all the better for it.


----------



## thom (11 Sep 2013)

Cross wind action !


----------



## rich p (11 Sep 2013)

I love echelons
Pozzovivo may have missed the split

<edit> has missed but may get back on the lump


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## rich p (11 Sep 2013)

Pinot has missed out too
42 seconds back


----------



## thom (11 Sep 2013)

Farrar up there - he needs a new contract - must be feeling the pressure


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## VamP (11 Sep 2013)

Never a dull stage this year


----------



## thom (11 Sep 2013)

Mollema caught em napping in the final km
EBH 2nd from Riccesi (sp?) & Farrar


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## rich p (11 Sep 2013)

nice mugging by Mollema but Pozzo and Pinot the losers in GC


----------



## raindog (11 Sep 2013)

LOL - pack, once again, gets mugged by lone rider


----------



## Basil.B (11 Sep 2013)

Cracking stage, can't wait for the remaining stages!


----------



## Pedrosanchezo (12 Sep 2013)

Enjoyed yesterdays stage - up until 1.5k to go when the Oooooooorosport recording decided that was the end and that i should simply guess who finished where.


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## rich p (12 Sep 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> Enjoyed yesterdays stage - up until 1.5k to go when the Oooooooorosport recording decided that was the end and that i should simply guess who finished where.


? I saw the whole thing on Eurosport


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## The Couch (12 Sep 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> Enjoyed yesterdays stage - up until 1.5k to go when the Oooooooorosport recording decided that was the end and that i should simply guess who finished where.


Soooo.... tell us... who won in your mind?


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## Crackle (12 Sep 2013)

Eddie the Bridesmaid again.


----------



## The Couch (12 Sep 2013)

Crackle said:


> Eddie the Bridesmaid again.


Farrar would be over the moon to even be the bridesmaid once again


----------



## The Couch (12 Sep 2013)

smutchin said:


> At least your pre-race favourite is in the top 100.


So you had Betancur as top-favourite? 
Well... at least he's improving: he's already 129... I'm pretty sure he was somewhere in the 180s at one point or another


----------



## tug benson (12 Sep 2013)

kiryienka might win this stage


----------



## thom (12 Sep 2013)

Kiriyenka ahead in the final km


----------



## thom (12 Sep 2013)

Valverde dropped


----------



## tug benson (12 Sep 2013)

Horner pulling away


----------



## thom (12 Sep 2013)

Horner takes 25 secs from Nibali!
with the 6 sec 2nd place bonus, is that a 3 sec lead on Nibali now ?
Edit - ah he was 6'th not 2nd, so I think he is 3 secs down on Nibali !

This going to be come down to the Angliru, or should I say up to the Angliru


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## musa (12 Sep 2013)

ahhh fantastic stage
kiriyenka strong or what


----------



## raindog (12 Sep 2013)

Killer stage - Nibs blows up big time.
Fantastic ride from Kyrienka.


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## VamP (12 Sep 2013)

Horner rides away yet again


----------



## Pedrosanchezo (12 Sep 2013)

rich p said:


> ? I saw the whole thing on Eurosport



Hmmm, i think it is a recording thing. The program may run over time but the recording finishes when the original program is meant to. 


The Couch said:


> Soooo.... tell us... who won in your mind?


In my mind EBH would have won but i have since learned that Mollema took it. Chapeau! 

Because i watch it in the evening i tend to be a bit behind with this thread, hence i don't look at what is being said currently - only day old posts.


----------



## Stonechat (12 Sep 2013)

Think Kiriyenka was a bit disappointing in the tdf they had to switch him to less onerous duties, but been getting stronger at this end of the season


----------



## Noodley (12 Sep 2013)

Horner can get to f-ck


----------



## rich p (12 Sep 2013)

Am I right in thinking that Horner was reckoned to be one of the redacted riders in the USADA reasoned decision?


----------



## thom (12 Sep 2013)

Stonechat said:


> Think Kiriyenka was a bit disappointing in the tdf they had to switch him to less onerous duties, but been getting stronger at this end of the season


I think he would have been a bit disappointed to miss the time cut on stage 9 in the TdF...


----------



## rich p (12 Sep 2013)

thom said:


> I think he would have been a bit disappointed to miss the time cut on stage 9 in the TdF...


 ...and the lazy fecker was nowhere to be seen after that.


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## Crackle (12 Sep 2013)

rich p said:


> Am I right in thinking that Horner was reckoned to be one of the redacted riders in the USADA reasoned decision?


Possible.

He looks like he's on more than Glucosamine for aching joints anyhow. I'm not enjoying watching this now.

It's going to come down to the Angry Loo isn't it.


----------



## jifdave (12 Sep 2013)

Crackle said:


> Possible.
> 
> He looks like he's on more than Glucosamine for aching joints anyhow. I'm not enjoying watching this now.


Cod lover oil?

I'm also struggling to watch this.


----------



## rich p (12 Sep 2013)

Crackle said:


> Possible.
> 
> He looks like he's on more than Glucosamine for aching joints anyhow. I'm not enjoying watching this now.
> 
> It's going to come down to the Angry Loo isn't it.


 Nope, me neither. Horner will win it on the loo, it looks.
Why haven't the redacted riders been named? The yanks don't worry about libel do they?


----------



## 400bhp (12 Sep 2013)

VamP said:


> Horner rides away yet again



It's too unbelievable isn't it  All the other riders dying up over the last km of today, yet Armstrong V2.0 looked like he was having a stroll in the park.

Did he literally go into hiding over the season and off the radar of out of competition testing?

Anyone remember that stage of the Vuelta last year when a certain someone rode away from the field on a particular stage. Something odd about the Vuelta?


----------



## kedab (12 Sep 2013)

have the press not been all over Jack Skellington as they were FroomeDog during Le Tour? from what i've seen horner does the PR side of things really well but surely this isn't all it takes to put one past the reporters? not these days, surely? i'm yet to catch up on the past 2 stages but i have to say he's looked amazingly composed going up some of those ramps while other top notch riders have been snotting all over their bar tape...it just don't look proper and i don't like it. not a bit.


----------



## Noodley (12 Sep 2013)

I have stopped caring tbh. Which is a shame as there has been great racing from others, but Horner has turned it into a f*cking joke.


----------



## Strathlubnaig (12 Sep 2013)

I was fully expecting a TdF style Rest Day Doping Announcement #dissapointed


----------



## kedab (12 Sep 2013)

Noodley said:


> I have stopped caring tbh. Which is a shame as there has been great racing from others, but Horner has turned it into a f*cking joke.


that's what i'm getting at though Noods. all of cycling knows it needs the stink of an armstrongesque affair like it needs a dose of the clap so, surely, if he's even got a TUE for Bonjela, they're going to jump up and down on his tiny bald head?


----------



## Noodley (12 Sep 2013)

Probably for the same reasons they ignored it with Armstrong and the countless others where they knew. Spineless.


----------



## kedab (12 Sep 2013)

Noodley said:


> Probably for the same reasons they ignored it with Armstrong and the countless others where they knew. Spineless.


let's get out there sharpish! before we leave i'll stop off at the fancy dress shop, get one of those hats with the 'press' card in the band like what they do in the pikshas, we'll look well kosher and we'll have at 'im with all these questions and the spineless jellyfish be damned i say Noods...Damn them all to hell!


----------



## thom (12 Sep 2013)

rich p said:


> Nope, me neither. Horner will win it on the loo, it looks.
> Why haven't the redacted riders been named? The yanks don't worry about libel do they?









These were guesses of the names. Horner at 15 but obviously it would be necessary to look in the report to see the particular context.


----------



## deptfordmarmoset (12 Sep 2013)

thom said:


> These were the estimations of the names.


I'd have thought the EPO song would have climbed higher in the charts....


----------



## kedab (12 Sep 2013)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> I'd have thought the EPO song would have climbed higher in the charts....


dammit! a quick google produced no blood transfusion related songs that i could chuck in to the mix


----------



## smutchin (12 Sep 2013)

rich p said:


> Nope, me neither. Horner will win it on the loo, it looks.
> Why haven't the redacted riders been named? The yanks don't worry about libel do they?



I refer the honourable gentleman to the tweet from Mikkel Conde about "Rider 15" I quoted upthread.


----------



## smutchin (12 Sep 2013)

Awesome ride by Kiryienka today. And some great Voeckler-faces too!

Really pleased to see Mollema win yesterday too.


----------



## Stonechat (12 Sep 2013)

kedab said:


> dammit! a quick google produced no blood transfusion related songs that i could chuck in to the mix


How about 'Tell me it's not true' from the musical Blood Brothers


----------



## rich p (12 Sep 2013)

smutchin said:


> I refer the honourable gentleman to the tweet from Mikkel Conde about "Rider 15" I quoted upthread.





smutchin said:


> I refer the honourable gentleman to the tweet from Mikkel Conde about "Rider 15" I quoted upthread.


 Sorry Smutch, I must have missed that!


----------



## Foghat (13 Sep 2013)

smutchin said:


> Awesome ride by Kiryienka today. *And some great Voeckler-faces too*!


 
An interesting contrast to the untroubled and impassive ice-robot look usually on his face when driving on the climbs for miles for Wiggins and Froome.

And I see Liggett seems to have finally worked out how to pronounce Boasson-Hagen!


----------



## Flying_Monkey (13 Sep 2013)

Horner's performance in this race has definitely crossed into the unbelievable realm now. I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt before but the sustained day-after-day peak performances at his age - it just doesn't wash. It's one thing when you're in your late twenties and at the top of your physical abilities, but in your early 40s? No.


----------



## Spartak (13 Sep 2013)

Foghat said:


> And I see Liggett seems to have finally worked out how to pronounce Boasson-Hagen!



.... but I wish somebody would tell him that its Nicholas Roche not Stephen Roche !!!


----------



## Strathlubnaig (13 Sep 2013)

I saw that Brian Smith tweeted to Ligget to please say "Net App ENDURA" not just Net App.
And I hear Horner wears an "Old Guys Rule" tee shirt in the hotel of an evening.


----------



## Noodley (13 Sep 2013)

Spartak said:


> .... but I wish somebody would tell him that its Nicholas Roche not Stephen Roche !!!


And that he should stop getting a semi when he mentions Jensie, the nobber that he is


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## Noodley (13 Sep 2013)

Strathlubnaig said:


> And I hear Horner wears an "Old Guys Rule" tee shirt in the hotel of an evening.


 Old Guys Dope


----------



## rich p (13 Sep 2013)

UCI test results just in clear Horner of substance abuse. He and Jensie have been swigging from the same bottle..


----------



## The Couch (13 Sep 2013)

rich p said:


> UCI test results just in clear Horner of substance abuse. He and Jensie have been swigging from the same bottle.


Phyllosan ... hmmm.... Rich P, sir, I am very interested in your amazing tonic, please tell me more


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## rich p (13 Sep 2013)

The Couch said:


> Phyllosan ... hmmm.... Rich P, sir, I am very interested in your amazing tonic, please tell me more


 I don't take it anymore as it only fortifies the over-forties. I need an over-fifties product.


----------



## smutchin (13 Sep 2013)

rich p said:


> Sorry Smutch, I must have missed that!



I think everyone did! I thought it was widely known that Horner was believed to be "Rider 15" but he seems to be very good at slipping under the radar.


----------



## thom (13 Sep 2013)

The way I see it is Horner has to be proved to have doped before I will be sceptical (edit might have better said "very sceptical"). There are arguments that can explain his performance for me.
1) He is a seasoned pro who knows his body and just as long distance runners in the 40's can steadily put in high quality performances, so might Horner. Over the past few years he regularly puts in top 20 Grand Tour performances (unlike Cobo).
2) The drug testing is better than ever - I really think they will find out the majority of people
3) We say his performance looks dodgy but I don't see anyone looking at data (which can be interpreted in various ways of course) the important thing is
4) This is the only Grand tour he has done this year. Why is it not possible for him to have nailed his preparation for this year and that to have put him physically on a par with younger guys at the very end of this race. 3 weeks of racing is about endurance - old guys can have very high capacity in this regard - it is not the explosive first week that he has been outstanding as such - he just seems to be a steady performer while other levels of performance drop off. Take a look at his competitors in the top 10. 4 of them did the Giro, 4 did the Tour and the other is Konig who is breaking through as a GC rider.

ITA 1 NIBALI, Vincenzo Giro
USA 2 HORNER, Christopher
ESP 3 VALVERDE BELMONTE, Alejandro Tour de France
ESP 4 RODRIGUEZ OLIVER, Joaquin Tour de France
IRL 5 ROCHE, Nicolas Tour de France
ITA 6 POZZOVIVO, Domenico Giro
FRA 7 PINOT, Thibaut Tour de France
CZE 8 KONIG, Leopold 
ESP 9 SANCHEZ GONZALEZ, Samuel Giro
EST 10 KANGERT, Tanel Giro

We have to judge him against this and not the past. Bike racing has changed.
To say his performance is not normal is palpably true for the Vuelta: we maybe only have last year of Contador's comeback as a comparable "clean" race for comparison so nobody really knows what normal is any more and we ought to be open to the possibility that this is it.


----------



## Old Tom (13 Sep 2013)

rich p said:


> I don't take it anymore as it only fortifies the over-forties. I need an over-fifties product.


 

You want to get some of Horner's special Sanatogen down you. And was that a Stannah bike I saw him riding yesterday?


----------



## The Couch (13 Sep 2013)

Old Tom said:


> ... And was that a Stannah bike I saw him riding yesterday?


Whatever bike it was, he could have saved himself some weight by throwing away the saddle


----------



## rich p (13 Sep 2013)

If Horner doesn't get exposed then we'll never know for sure if it's a phenomenon of a cleaner peloton and a bloke who has defied age-related decline or that he's doping as Leipheimer indicated.
Nibali is puzzlingly average in this race (despite being in Red!!!). Blaming the effort in the Giro seems lame or misplaced when he has had more time to get refreshed than Roche, Rodriguez and ValvPiti. It's normally assumed that you'd struggle doing two consecutive GTs as Froome did last year. He was off the pace in the Tour of Poland too. Maybe his heart isn't in it this year after the Giro?
I believe the wattage figures aren't extraordinary in this Vuelta so maybe the rest are indeed under-performing. Not many would have put Nico in their top 5 after the TdF and his mediocre history.
If Horner was 31 not 41 I'd have no problem with it, but his age, coupled with lack of recent stellar results, plus his defence of Armstrong, plus winning lots of races in his youth against juiced up riders, plus Rider 15 testimony from Leipheimer makes me sceptical..


----------



## smutchin (13 Sep 2013)

There's a piece on Inner Ring about Horner that's worth reading: http://inrng.com/2013/09/vuelta-chris-horner-performance-age/

I'm with Flying Monkey on this one. It's hard to make any meaningful assessment of his performance, with or without any power data, but even so, it stinks.


----------



## Hont (13 Sep 2013)

thom said:


> The way I see it is Horner has to be proved to have doped before I will be sceptical.



That is of course your perogative, but you don't need _proof _to be sceptical.

However good the drug testing is, it's a long way from infallible. The fact remains that a man of nearly 42 is capable of _high intensity_ performances superior to much younger men, many of whom have doping history themselves. 

I don't believe that anyone who rode the Giro would still be tired from that effort if they properly managed their training in the interim.


----------



## thom (13 Sep 2013)

Hont said:


> That is of course your perogative, but you don't need _proof _to be sceptical.
> 
> However good the drug testing is, it's a long way from infallible. The fact remains that a man of nearly 42 is capable of _high intensity_ performances superior to much younger men, many of whom have doping history themselves.


You can be sceptical (there is a flag in my mind too), but have an argument to back it up - just saying he is old for me doesn't sound like you've thought about it much.



Hont said:


> I don't believe that anyone who rode the Giro would still be tired from that effort if they properly managed their training in the interim.


What I'm saying is that if we are in a post doping world, we don't know what it takes to perform at both the Giro and the Vuelta, so you might believe that but I think you have to accept it is possibly wrong. Indeed, even when doping was rife, how many riders managed it ?


----------



## smutchin (13 Sep 2013)

rich p said:


> Not many would have put Nico in their top 5 after the TdF and his mediocre history.



I was really expecting him to blow up on the final climb yesterday, but the fact that he managed to stay near the leaders does put the overall standard of the race into some perspective. I mean, I like Nico Roche, but he is not a thoroughbred climber, never has been.

I wonder if Wiggo is looking on and imagining he should have gone for this one rather than the Giro.


----------



## thom (13 Sep 2013)

User said:


> came across this today, worth a read, he talks to and about Horner
> 
> Cam Wurf’s Vuelta Diary – New buddy in the bunch
> 
> http://cyclingtips.com.au/2013/09/cam-wurfs-vuelta-diary-new-buddy-in-the-bunch/


"He spoke about how people are questioning him on his perceived sudden rise to the top of the sport. Perhaps people should look a little more closely at what’s gone on over the past few years and the type of riders who are now at the head of the biggest races. They are the guys with pure class, talent and great work ethic; the best part both young an old. Rising phenomenons like Sagan, and now the old dogs with plenty of tricks like Horner. It really was great for me to have this little impromptu chat with Chris as we scaled the first cat 3 climb of the day. I certainly was pleased to hear that he lit up the race on the final climb and has set up an absolutely mouth watering duel with another of the pure class, Vincenso Nibali."


----------



## Flying_Monkey (13 Sep 2013)

The background arguments in favour of scepticism are very much the same as the general arguments against Lance: the teams he has ridden for, the coaches he has trained under, and let's not forget the open secret that he refused to testify in the Armstrong inquiry and is alleged to be Rider 15 of those whose names were redacted (i.e. the riders that Levi Leipheimer reported had told him they doped in 2005).

What I am not convinced in any way by are the arguments of those in Horner's favour, i.e. he's a nice guy, he comes across as humble in interviews and he wears funny T-shirts. People want to believe, especially Americans right now, for obvious reasons. I don't know that he's doping, but if you aren't in any way sceptical of an almost 42-year old who has never finished higher than 9th in any GT kicking the arses of riders in their late twenties at the peak of their physical condition, not just on one day, but day after day, then I don't what you would be sceptical of...


----------



## rich p (13 Sep 2013)

I'm sceptical of those who aren't sceptical


----------



## thom (13 Sep 2013)

Flying_Monkey said:


> What I am not convinced in any way by are the arguments of those in Horner's favour, i.e. he's a nice guy, he comes across as humble in interviews and he wears funny T-shirts. People want to believe, especially Americans right now, for obvious reasons. I don't know that he's doping, but if you aren't in any way sceptical of an almost 42-year old who has never finished higher than 9th in any GT kicking the arses of riders in their late twenties at the peak of their physical condition, not just on one day, but day after day, then I don't what you would be sceptical of...


Being sceptical is one thing, to question his performance is more than reasonable and any sceptic would be happy to look at the points on either side of the argument - saying "No I don't believe his performances", this is no longer scepticism in my book.


----------



## The Couch (13 Sep 2013)

smutchin said:


> ...I wonder if Wiggo is looking on and imagining he should have gone for this one rather than the Giro.


Have you seen Wiggo climbing the Angliru (a.k.a. almost falling of his bike) in 2011?


thom said:


> Being sceptical is one thing, to question his performance is more than reasonable and any sceptic would be happy to look at the points on either side of the argument - saying "No I don't believe his performances", this is no longer scepticism in my book.


Still... I don't really believe his performances


----------



## thom (13 Sep 2013)

The Couch said:


> Have you seen Wiggo climbing the Angliru (a.k.a. almost falling of his bike) in 2011?
> 
> Still... I don't really believe his performances


get stuffed you complacent fantasist - just because you're winning the league doesn't mean we have to settle for your victor's justice !


----------



## Crackle (13 Sep 2013)

thom said:


> The way I see it is Horner has to be proved to have doped before I will be sceptical (edit might have better said "very sceptical"). There are arguments that can explain his performance for me.
> 1) He is a seasoned pro who knows his body and just as long distance runners in the 40's can steadily put in high quality performances, so might Horner. Over the past few years he regularly puts in top 20 Grand Tour performances (unlike Cobo).
> 2) The drug testing is better than ever - I really think they will find out the majority of people
> 3) We say his performance looks dodgy but I don't see anyone looking at data (which can be interpreted in various ways of course) the important thing is
> ...



I'd agree with all of this, it pretty much matches the rationalization I've done in my head but still, I'm not enjoying watching it and still I have my doubts.


----------



## The Couch (13 Sep 2013)

thom said:


> get stuffed you complacent fantasist - just because you're winning the league doesn't mean we have to settle for your victor's justice !


You've got me... indeed if Horner would be scrapped from the results my score would be even better... it is all part of my elaborate plan to kick all of your behinds some more


----------



## thom (13 Sep 2013)

Crackle said:


> I'd agree with all of this, it pretty much matches the rationalization I've done in my head but still, I'm not enjoying watching it and still I have my doubts.


Another thing is the psychological aspect. I think @smutchin mentioned earlier that Nibali said his attitude was to take things as they come in this race and then see how hard to try when it came to the final week.
This to me does not sound like he is as motivated as at the Giro. Horner on the other hand will see this as perhaps his only chance to win a Grand Tour - he is more motivated than ever.
I grant you, it is fair to have a question mark but I think it is very unfair to say the only explanation is he is doping. People may not understand how Horner is doing so well (he has clearly used that to his advantage to be able to have his current race position) but just because we don't understand does it mean we can conclude that he is doping.
I'm really sorry to be banging on about it because the racing is pretty exciting, so I am done with the matter.


----------



## Booyaa (13 Sep 2013)

Flying_Monkey said:


> The background arguments in favour of scepticism are very much the same as the general arguments against Lance: the teams he has ridden for, the coaches he has trained under, and let's not forget the open secret that he refused to testify in the Armstrong inquiry and is alleged to be Rider 15 of those whose names were redacted (i.e. the riders that Levi Leipheimer reported had told him they doped in 2005).
> 
> What I am not convinced in any way by are the arguments of those in Horner's favour, i.e. he's a nice guy, he comes across as humble in interviews and he wears funny T-shirts. People want to believe, especially Americans right now, for obvious reasons. I don't know that he's doping, but if you aren't in any way sceptical of an almost 42-year old who has never finished higher than 9th in any GT kicking the arses of riders in their late twenties at the peak of their physical condition, not just on one day, but day after day, then I don't what you would be sceptical of...


I am sceptical of him, it might just be the right time at the right place for him and this is a one off, I doubt it though... What I don't understand though is people not in the least bit sceptical, and like with Lance in previous years, I could never understand why anyone believed he was clean, to me, it was so obvious. I would be happy to be wrong on this but it just seems to good to be true for such an old (in top cycling terms) man to be beating just about everyone else so comfortably.


----------



## rich p (13 Sep 2013)

Anyway, back to the racing!
EBH in a break to try to make Sky's disappointing race (until yesterday) more acceptable


----------



## Crackle (13 Sep 2013)

rich p said:


> Anyway, back to the racing!
> EBH in a break to try to make Sky's disappointing race (until yesterday) more acceptable


So 2nd for him then, just a question of who'll snatch it from him.


----------



## MisterStan (13 Sep 2013)

Crackle said:


> So 2nd for him then, just a question of who'll snatch it from him.


Harsh!


----------



## Noodley (13 Sep 2013)

Bollocks to it! He's as juiced as Del Monte


----------



## smutchin (13 Sep 2013)

Flying_Monkey said:


> an almost 42-year old who has never finished higher than 9th in any GT



IIRC, there were quite a few eyebrows raised by that performance in the 2010 Tour as well.


----------



## smutchin (13 Sep 2013)

The Couch said:


> Have you seen Wiggo climbing the Angliru (a.k.a. almost falling of his bike) in 2011?



Don't be deceived by appearances. He finished that stage in fifth place, don't forget - alongside Anton, a specialist climber, and well ahead of the likes of Purito, Moreno, Nibali et al. And over five minutes ahead of Roche. 

Now, is Roche really having the ride of his life or is the standard of the race not as high this year as in previous years?


----------



## rich p (13 Sep 2013)

Time bonuses could play a part today


----------



## rich p (13 Sep 2013)

Oooh, JRod goes


----------



## rich p (13 Sep 2013)

Horner in red tonight - hmmmm


----------



## thom (13 Sep 2013)

Horner takes the lead - great attack from J Rod to take the stage
Nibali just seems to be tailing off towards the end.


----------



## laurence (13 Sep 2013)

noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo


----------



## thom (13 Sep 2013)

With the Angliru tomorrow being so effing hard, J-rod has an outside chance of taking serious time from Horner & Valverde.
I can't see Nibali taking back the lead now.


----------



## Stonechat (13 Sep 2013)

Well done Purito


----------



## Rayvon (13 Sep 2013)

Would be nice to see Horner win this, hes looking strong on these hills


----------



## Milzy (13 Sep 2013)

Rayvon said:


> Would be nice to see Horner win this, hes looking strong on these hills


I hope he does & think he may have what it takes now. He just needs to not put all his eggs in one basket.


----------



## raindog (13 Sep 2013)

I like to see Rodriguez win 
And it's great seeing Nico Roche regularly attacking up front - God knows we've waited long enough...


----------



## VamP (13 Sep 2013)

Rayvon said:


> Would be nice to see Horner win this, hes looking strong on these hills



Yeah so strong and seemingly effortless...


----------



## 400bhp (13 Sep 2013)

Nibali sandbagging.


----------



## Rayvon (13 Sep 2013)

Horner with 3 second lead, should hopefully hang on to the red. Its gonna be a tight finish thou, could still be anyones.


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## rich p (13 Sep 2013)

Rayvon said:


> Horner with 3 second lead, should hopefully hang on to the red. Its gonna be a tight finish thou, could still be anyones.


 Don't take this the wrong way Rayvon, but you are either trolling, naive or you haven't read the thread until this evening. Either way it might be a good idea to get a feel for the way the other posters on here are thinking rather than assuming we are all a-hooting and a-hollering for Little Jack,


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## Mike Heller (14 Sep 2013)

soooo, has anyone else noticed that horner is poised to win the red, white and, if he dominates stage 20, the blue jerseys??? how awesome would that be? i was going to celebrate with cava, but all of sudden budweiser seems more appropriate.


----------



## Rayvon (14 Sep 2013)

rich p said:


> Don't take this the wrong way Rayvon, but you are either trolling, naive or you haven't read the thread until this evening. Either way it might be a good idea to get a feel for the way the other posters on here are thinking rather than assuming we are all a-hooting and a-hollering for Little Jack,



Not taken the wrong way, Golden rule never assume, Hopefully testing should pull anyone for drugs but right now i'm just enjoying the cycling.


----------



## Strathlubnaig (14 Sep 2013)

rich p said:


> Don't take this the wrong way Rayvon, but you are either trolling, naive or you haven't read the thread until this evening. Either way it might be a good idea to get a feel for the way the other posters on here are thinking rather than assuming we are all a-hooting and a-hollering for Little Jack,


What ? You have to go along with everyone elses opinion or not post ? If we did that we'd all be team Sky fans with a semi for Froome. Everyone's views are valid surely ?


----------



## rich p (14 Sep 2013)

Strathlubnaig said:


> What ? You have to go along with everyone elses opinion or not post ? If we did that we'd all be team Sky fans with a semi for Froome. Everyone's views are valid surely ?


 Of course not.
All views are welcome. You have missed my point but hey ho,


----------



## rich p (14 Sep 2013)

Does anyone think that Nibali can grab back those 3 seconds? Horner is nailed on for my money.


----------



## VamP (14 Sep 2013)

rich p said:


> Does anyone think that Nibali can grab back those 3 seconds? Horner is nailed on for my money.



It's between Nibali, Valverde and Purito. In my mind, I have disqualified Horner already.


----------



## jifdave (14 Sep 2013)

I want j rod to win. He will be very unlucky to not have won a GT in his career.


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## Pedrosanchezo (14 Sep 2013)

I think that his Nibs has saved it all for today. Being a few seconds behind Horner will not be important in terms of time lost or gained today. It will be blown apart and i think Purito and Valvrde will have a crack too. 

Have to admit that i thought GC would be over by now with his Nibs being several minutes to the good. Turning out quite different. 

Don't know how i feel about Horner and his rise to become the Vuelta's super mountain goat. It seems not to sit well but......
If he gets caught doping then i hope he shares a cell in hell with Armstrong, for eternity. If not though i think we should try and take it at face value and give the benefit of the doubt. Someone cannot be branded as guilty unless they have been found guilty. 

I am still hoping that Nibbers is going to open up a can of 'old guy thwarter' and put 30 seconds into Horner in the last few Km's. 
Or even better, Purito goes away from everyone on the last ramp and takes back 2 minutes +, putting him in the Red.


----------



## Crackle (14 Sep 2013)

Mike Heller said:


> soooo, has anyone else noticed that horner is poised to win the red, white and, if he dominates stage 20, the blue jerseys??? how awesome would that be? i was going to celebrate with cava, but all of sudden budweiser seems more appropriate.


Heh! Well if you're driving just make sure you microdose the Bud, in case you get tested like


----------



## Hont (14 Sep 2013)

Pena Cabarga. Nibali "I can’t climb at 500 watts. I was going at 430 watts and that guy accelerated. What could I do?"
From this I deduce...
1. Nibali is not saving himself
2. Horner is...well I'm sure you can draw your own conclusions.

Nibali is reputedly 64.5Kg which makes even his 430 watts over 6.5 watts per kilo. We don't have information on how long he was at 430 watts but the fact that Horner was able to accelerate at that sort of power output is very indicative.


----------



## raindog (14 Sep 2013)

jifdave said:


> I want j rod to win. He will be very unlucky to not have won a GT in his career.


I don't think Purito will win the Vuelta (although I'd be over the moon if he did) but I hope he can at least leap-frog Valverde.
Bring on the Angryglue!


----------



## Noodley (14 Sep 2013)

Anyone giving Horner the benefit of the doubt needs to adjust their doubt levels!


----------



## jifdave (14 Sep 2013)

raindog said:


> I don't think Purito will win the Vuelta (although I'd be over the moon if he did) but I hope he can at least leap-frog Valverde.
> Bring on the Angryglue!


Yeah me too. 

If he did win it he'd have to be riding at extraordinary levels to put 2mins into Horner. Nibs could crack early if katusha get it together on 'angry glue' (lol)


----------



## smutchin (14 Sep 2013)

Hont said:


> Pena Cabarga. Nibali "I can’t climb at 500 watts. I was going at 430 watts and that guy accelerated. What could I do?"



Wow. Very interesting comment - only just short of a direct accusation. Very interesting indeed.


----------



## smutchin (14 Sep 2013)

Full story of the Nibali remarks here:
http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/09/news/horner-pushes-the-power-numbers-at-the-vuelta_302720

Equivocal, perhaps, but a fairly strong hint at what he's really thinking.


----------



## rich p (14 Sep 2013)

smutchin said:


> Full story of the Nibali remarks here:
> http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/09/news/horner-pushes-the-power-numbers-at-the-vuelta_302720
> 
> Equivocal, perhaps, but a fairly strong hint at what he's really thinking.


 Hmmm, those power readings are significant.


----------



## 400bhp (14 Sep 2013)

smutchin said:


> Full story of the Nibali remarks here:
> http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/09/news/horner-pushes-the-power-numbers-at-the-vuelta_302720
> 
> Equivocal, perhaps, but a fairly strong hint at what he's really thinking.



I suspected that's what he thought. Him and Valverde have been having sly digs for a while now.

This quote of yore, slightly amended and updated springs to mind:



> "If [HORNER] is clean, it is the greatest [ACHIEVEMENT FOR A 41 YEAR OLD] in the history of sports. If he isn't, it would be the greatest fraud


----------



## VamP (14 Sep 2013)

I like this quote:

_“For sure, Horner breaks the mold due to his age, but compared to what he’s done the past several years, there is nothing extreme in what he is doing,” RadioShack trainer Josu Larrazabal told VeloNews. “These performances are reasonable. Chris is hitting the same numbers he’s been hitting all of his career.”_

Yeah, well, he's been on the juice most of his career. I am not surprised that in his mind he is not cheating. He comes from that mindset. Lance didn't think there was anything wrong with what he did either. It is significant that he is having his career best results at a time when the vast majority of his competitors are clean.


----------



## thom (14 Sep 2013)

rich p said:


> Hmmm, those power readings are significant.


They are if correct. That data makes me more concerned but we've had similar discussions about Chris Froome going up Ventoux.

I would be staggered if Horner is doping and thinks he can get away with it - the testing at the Giro caught out a few guys - how would he believe he could dodge that ?


----------



## rich p (14 Sep 2013)

thom said:


> They are if correct. That data makes me more concerned but we've had similar discussions about Chris Froome going up Ventoux.
> 
> I would be staggered if Horner is doping and thinks he can get away with it - the testing at the Giro caught out a few guys - how would he believe he could dodge that ?


True Thom - who made up the numbers I suppose if we're being analytical?
Smoke and mirrors. There are doubts, scepticism and very strong doubts but a +ve test or a blood passport anomaly would settle it better!


----------



## Pedrosanchezo (14 Sep 2013)

Speculation seems rife and it doesn't seem to matter which athlete we are talking about any more. As long as they are performing better than their previous race or season then it seems reason enough to suspect them of cheating. All because of one lying cheating scumbag that fooled more than most! 

As long as there is competition there will be cheats, but to call someone a cheat based on hearsay and rumour, or even past results, is far from reasonable. 

For Horner to be doping, to the extent that some suggest, there would be zero chance of him passing doping tests and his bio passport would be significantly changed from when he was clean. 

If he tests positive then the guy is everything he is currently accused of, but until that time then it is no more than mud slinging. 

In fact for some they believe they cannot be wrong - if Horner tests positive then he is a cheat and if he doesn't then he is a clever or lucky cheat. Clean doesn't seem to be a possible scenario.


----------



## thom (14 Sep 2013)

rich p said:


> True Thom - who made up the numbers I suppose if we're being analytical?


But also the interpretation - as Brailsford says, none of the power data game is purely scientific. If this data is correct (and I have no reason to believe it is wrong as such, just to be fair you'd need to check), then it provides questions but still, I'm of the one step at a time mentality and we have to allow for other explanations.



rich p said:


> There are doubts, scepticism and very strong doubts but a +ve test or a blood passport anomaly would settle it better!


Agreed - and have we seen suspicious performances recently that have not been tainted by drug tests ? Even the guy who won the tour of Turkey has been sprung in the aftermath.


----------



## smutchin (14 Sep 2013)

thom said:


> But also the interpretation - as Brailsford says, none of the power data game is purely scientific.



Indeed. But you don't need a highly calibrated Quackometer to recognise that Horner is quacking very much like a duck. 

Occam's razor, and all that.


----------



## thom (14 Sep 2013)

smutchin said:


> Indeed. But you don't need a highly calibrated Quackometer to recognise that Horner is quacking very much like a duck.
> 
> Occam's razor, and all that.


The same was said to some degree for the winners of the past grand tours from some quarter or another: Froome, Nibali, Contador, Wiggins...
Occam's razor, being a guide for heuristic reasoning based upon fewest assumptions inferring plausibility of conclusion, is fair enough as a non-rigorous justification of scepticism but it does not pretend to provide irrefutable conclusions.
Be careful not to take note of the assumptions each side of the argument makes, not just the opposing one.


----------



## Crackle (14 Sep 2013)

You've got to set this against his age and previous results and it's looking more and more unlikely that this is credible. Today will tell us for certain, perhaps yesterday Nibali was bluffing slightly, leaving the race responsibility to Horner today, we'll see.


----------



## raindog (14 Sep 2013)

'ere we go - even the flat bits go uphill today


----------



## thom (14 Sep 2013)

Crackle said:


> You've got to set this against his age and previous results and it's looking more and more unlikely that this is credible. Today will tell us for certain, perhaps yesterday Nibali was bluffing slightly, leaving the race responsibility to Horner today, we'll see.


There is no benchmark from the past. Too many successful riders were doped back then so you would know for sure he was dirty had his record been better.


----------



## smutchin (14 Sep 2013)

I've been very careful not to leap to conclusions about Horner, but the longer this race has gone on, the harder it has become to give him the benefit of any doubt. 

Even Froome had his off moments in the Tour de France.


----------



## Noodley (14 Sep 2013)

I'm gonna start boo-ing when he's on the screen


----------



## thom (14 Sep 2013)

I saw a quote that this is the first grand tour since 1951 or something, where 2 riders have both held the GC lead for 3 separate stints. That to me says Horner has had some days worse than Froome - he took yellow on stage 8 of the TdF and held it to the end. 
Look we all know this story - as @rich p said, it would be better to have a positive test result and this we may well have in due course.


----------



## Crackle (14 Sep 2013)

thom said:


> There is no benchmark from the past. Too many successful riders were doped back then so you would know for sure he was dirty had his record been better.


I get that but the decline of muscle mass per decade and VO2 max. must surely mean that Horner simply cannot be putting in his best performances in his 40's, look at Evans over the last two years. I appreciate there's more to it than VO2 max, recovery etc plays a part. but either, Horner is an exception to the rule or it's not credible, I'm tending to the latter.


----------



## VamP (14 Sep 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> Speculation seems rife and it doesn't seem to matter which athlete we are talking about any more. As long as they are performing better than their previous race or season then it seems reason enough to suspect them of cheating. All because of one lying cheating scumbag that fooled more than most!
> 
> As long as there is competition there will be cheats, but to call someone a cheat based on hearsay and rumour, or even past results, is far from reasonable.
> 
> ...




You put a lot of faith in tests. The guys caught at the Giro were stupid. Horner has had decades of practice of keeping ahead of the tests. This is what he said as recently as last December:

_"I understand and I'm clear on how much information is out there on what Lance is said to have done but I'm also clear on the fact that he's passed all of his tests,” Horner told Cyclingnews. “Are you supposed to go back and erase those memories? I remember the 2005 Tour de France and Lance was the best guy there and he past all the tests and won the Tour. I'm not going to debate if he won, he was there, he won and passed the tests."_


You still want to compare him to Froome or Nibali or Wiggins? Those guys have record of achievement, talent and most importantly, an outspoken commitment to racing clean. 

I am happy to give most people the benefit of the doubt. But a guy with no past credentials at GT level, oldest ever, ever, huge Lance apologist, and with a lifetime record of cheating? Forget the power number guesstimates - take a step back and look at the bigger picture. In what way is it even remotely possible that he might be clean?


----------



## thom (14 Sep 2013)

Crackle said:


> I get that but the decline of muscle mass per decade and VO2 max. must surely mean that Horner simply cannot be putting in his best performances in his 40's, look at Evans over the last two years. I appreciate there's more to it than VO2 max, recovery etc plays a part. but either, Horner is an exception to the rule or it's not credible, I'm tending to the latter.


Thing is, I don't think anyone here is a sport scientist and the fact is none of us have accurate measures of Horner's performance data, I don't know how to begin to evaluate is rigorously anyway. But it is well known that senior endurance runners can retain a high level of performance into their 40's.

Look, I'm done with this for today - I think we all hate this state of not knowing conclusively one way or another and I respect people being suspicious and sceptical but I'm just of the mind to allow for other legitimate explanations for now and that no amount of debate will allow conclusion one way or the other.

@VamP I've seen reports of Horner both defending and attacking Lance btw.


----------



## Pedrosanchezo (14 Sep 2013)

VamP said:


> You put a lot of faith in tests. The guys caught at the Giro were stupid. Horner has had decades of practice of keeping ahead of the tests. This is what he said as recently as last December:
> 
> _"I understand and I'm clear on how much information is out there on what Lance is said to have done but I'm also clear on the fact that he's passed all of his tests,” Horner told Cyclingnews. “Are you supposed to go back and erase those memories? I remember the 2005 Tour de France and Lance was the best guy there and he past all the tests and won the Tour. I'm not going to debate if he won, he was there, he won and passed the tests."_
> 
> ...


Testing during the Armstrong era was practically useless in detecting EPO and other ahead of the game drugs. That's why Armstrong, and many others, have since tested positive from samples taken over a decade ago - using new testing techniques. 
As per his stance on doping, well i'd suggest this tells you nothing. Armstrong's outspoken view on doping was similar to the guys you mention - Froome, Wiggins and Nibali. The difference being is that he proven to be a cheat and sometime after eventually confessed. People still say that Sky are running the biggest doping scam since Postal but that doesn't mean that it is so. History has made sceptics of many - too many in my opinion.

To muddy the waters further you could argue that if he was taking a substance that is not illegal, as yet, then he would not be breaking any rules. Ethics aside, it would be the same as taking Caffeine - a known performance enhancer. 

My real gripe is that this thread has about 30% posts about racing and 70% about doping.


----------



## thom (14 Sep 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> My real gripe is that this thread has about 30% posts about racing and 70% about doping.


It is my complaint too. And I've written about 40% of the doping posts... so sorry about that.


----------



## rich p (14 Sep 2013)

Yeah, a lot of them from you Pedro
Anyway, I take your point!
Live now on TV and a lump to go before they hit the Angilru - here we go


----------



## rich p (14 Sep 2013)

fab scenery


----------



## rich p (14 Sep 2013)

and fab overhead shot of a griffon vulture!!!


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## Pedrosanchezo (14 Sep 2013)

Fantastic commentary too. Has one of them released a book recently?


----------



## rich p (14 Sep 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> Fantastic commentary too. Has one of them released a book recently?


 Sweepstake on how long before Carlton Kirby mentions, " Feeling the hurt" or "The hurt is on"
I reckon with 12.6 km to the finish!


----------



## thom (14 Sep 2013)

Euskaltel-Euskadi well up for this on the front - their last half-decent chance for a Grand Tour result under this branding.

What are the chances that some overenthusiastic supporters will intervene against a non-spanish rider...?


----------



## raindog (14 Sep 2013)

J Rod on 36-28 today


----------



## Pedrosanchezo (14 Sep 2013)

rich p said:


> Sweepstake on how long before Carlton Kirby mentions, " Feeling the hurt" or "The hurt is on"
> I reckon with 12.6 km to the finish!


"it's end game time" or "It's time for the end game". 

Also if Sean Kelly doesn't talk about a rider doing a "calculation" then i'll eat my unwashed bib pad.


----------



## rich p (14 Sep 2013)

I've only just realised that Betancur is in this race!!! Where has he been?


----------



## rich p (14 Sep 2013)

JRod will have to attack early on the climb if he wants to get serious time back. Can he get 50 seconds on Vaverde? Possibly!


----------



## Pedrosanchezo (14 Sep 2013)

Hmmm yes, he has under performed hasn't he? I rather unwittingly picked him as one of my top 10 for the GC.


----------



## rich p (14 Sep 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> "it's end game time" or "It's time for the end game".
> 
> Also if Sean Kelly doesn't talk about a rider doing a "calculation" then i'll eat my unwashed bib pad.


 Damn, putting the hurt on with 25km to go. My bad!


----------



## cisamcgu (14 Sep 2013)

rich p said:


> Sweepstake on how long before Carlton Kirby mentions, " Feeling the hurt" or "The hurt is on"
> I reckon with 12.6 km to the finish!


25.6 km -"Just look at Katusha, putting on the hurt"


----------



## deptfordmarmoset (14 Sep 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> Fantastic commentary too. Has one of them released a book recently?


OT, but I was watching a stream of the GP of Quebec yesterday. The commentator actually came out with: ''There are the two flying Englishmen, Geraint Thomas and Chris Froome.''


----------



## rich p (14 Sep 2013)

Horner's taking the piss now


----------



## raindog (14 Sep 2013)

rich p said:


> JRod will have to attack early on the climb....


he might attack on the descent before they reach the last climb - hope he does


----------



## edindave (14 Sep 2013)

Can anyone remind me how old Chris Horner is?


----------



## rich p (14 Sep 2013)

edindave said:


> Can anyone remind me how old Chris Horner is?


 74 next birthday I think


----------



## smutchin (14 Sep 2013)

edindave said:


> Can anyone remind me how old Chris Horner is?



Someone should remind Chris Horner how old he is.


----------



## smutchin (14 Sep 2013)

Elissonde showing there that maybe Pinot isn't the worst descender on the team after all.


----------



## rich p (14 Sep 2013)

The Spanish TV pictures and info rarely inform about the intermediate riders who could affect bonifications


----------



## Stonechat (14 Sep 2013)

Really moving away from the doping issue, there was a terrific program about Flamenco the other day!


----------



## Strathlubnaig (14 Sep 2013)

Gear choices for today: Valverde 36x29; Nibali 34x29; Sanchez 34x32; Roche 36x32; Horner 34x32; Rodriguez 36x28.


----------



## Pedrosanchezo (14 Sep 2013)

They all look pretty fresh, hard to pick a winner here!


----------



## rich p (14 Sep 2013)

Nibali goes!!!


----------



## Strathlubnaig (14 Sep 2013)

c'mon Nibbles, 'kin give 'er !.....


----------



## thom (14 Sep 2013)

Nibali goes !


----------



## Pedrosanchezo (14 Sep 2013)

Go Nibbles!!!!


----------



## smutchin (14 Sep 2013)

GO NIBBLES!!!!


----------



## rich p (14 Sep 2013)

Hmmmm!


----------



## Strathlubnaig (14 Sep 2013)

...shark attack....


----------



## Pedrosanchezo (14 Sep 2013)

Edge of the seat this.......


----------



## Strathlubnaig (14 Sep 2013)

can Horner stay out the saddle for the last 6km ?


----------



## rich p (14 Sep 2013)

JRod needs to go soon


----------



## smutchin (14 Sep 2013)

Valverde's cracked!


----------



## thom (14 Sep 2013)

Horner & JRod reeling Nibali in - I can see them passing him and JRod having a dig later.
Nibali may lose big time - Horner too because he's doing a lot of work right now


----------



## Pedrosanchezo (14 Sep 2013)

Strathlubnaig said:


> can Horner stay out the saddle for the last 6km ?


Was just thinking that! Ouch.


----------



## Strathlubnaig (14 Sep 2013)

Horner reeling Nibs in a la Sky


----------



## Pedrosanchezo (14 Sep 2013)

Nibbles either leaving it for a sprint at finish or is simply knackered. Can't tell.


----------



## rich p (14 Sep 2013)

Nibali is always willing to have a go but he looks on the limit


----------



## thom (14 Sep 2013)

Quite happy for a 22 yo like Elissonde to win a stage like this


----------



## Strathlubnaig (14 Sep 2013)

Race Radio reckons Horner will go at 3km mark.


----------



## Pedrosanchezo (14 Sep 2013)

"calculation" by Kelly. No bib pad eating for moi.


----------



## rich p (14 Sep 2013)

Horner could at least grimace


----------



## Strathlubnaig (14 Sep 2013)

"No other sport has the anticipation, suffering, beauty and drama of pro cycling"


----------



## rich p (14 Sep 2013)

such pain! i'm in the hurt zone


----------



## Stonechat (14 Sep 2013)

Go on Nibs


----------



## Pedrosanchezo (14 Sep 2013)

Bloody hell that's brutal.


----------



## Strathlubnaig (14 Sep 2013)

utter chaos up there....beautiful.


----------



## Strathlubnaig (14 Sep 2013)

kudos to the lead moto for just staying upright !


----------



## tug benson (14 Sep 2013)

Crazy climb


----------



## Pedrosanchezo (14 Sep 2013)

Cmon Nibbles sprint past him!!!!


----------



## rich p (14 Sep 2013)

Nibs has cracked


----------



## Pedrosanchezo (14 Sep 2013)

Oh dear.


----------



## smutchin (14 Sep 2013)

BOOOOO!!!!


----------



## Pedrosanchezo (14 Sep 2013)

At last he sits down!


----------



## Pedrosanchezo (14 Sep 2013)

Jeez that Horner is some talent. He should mature into a real GC contender.


----------



## Strathlubnaig (14 Sep 2013)

a great stage win for Elissonde


----------



## Strathlubnaig (14 Sep 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> Jeez that Horner is some talent. He should mature into a real GC contender.


He gives auld farts like me a bit of hope and inspiration


----------



## Pedrosanchezo (14 Sep 2013)

Jeez he's so old he can't even walk after getting off his bike!


----------



## jifdave (14 Sep 2013)

Horner at least looks knackered


----------



## VamP (14 Sep 2013)

Chemistry triumphs over talent. Sad.


----------



## Stonechat (14 Sep 2013)

Looks even older with the helmet off - nearly as old as me


----------



## smutchin (14 Sep 2013)

Superb win for Elissonde. Looked like it really hurt.


----------



## woohoo (14 Sep 2013)

I don't usually comment in race threads but I've rarely enjoyed a GT so much with smaller budget teams getting so many stage wins and lots of new riders getting great results and I've never felt so depressed at the overall outcome.


----------



## raindog (14 Sep 2013)

smutchin said:


> Superb win for Elissonde. Looked like it really hurt.


he almost stopped on one of those last 21% corners - I actually thought he might fall off 
it's been a fabulous Vuelta for the French youngsters


----------



## thom (14 Sep 2013)

Ok, after that I have to say even I'm veering into pretty sceptical mode. The thing I think is odd is he doesn't appear knackered over the line. Maybe that is how you feel when you win though... so I still don't _know_.

What I'll say is that if he does get sprung for doping, his whole career is tarnished, his teammates are tarnished and US cycling as a whole is more screwed than ever.


----------



## Dave Davenport (14 Sep 2013)

What really amazes me about Horner is how he's managed to sort out all this stuff with Syria whilst winning a Grand Tour. Plus, as an American how come he's allowed to be British Foreign Secretary?


----------



## thom (14 Sep 2013)

Time for another caption competition:


----------



## rich p (14 Sep 2013)

You fúcka with me, you fúcka with my family.



thom said:


> Time for another caption competition:


----------



## Hont (14 Sep 2013)

jifdave said:


> Horner at least looks knackered


Nah, he wasn't even breathing hard. Sitting down was for the camera. When you're really knackered you don't want to be filmed, not look around to make sure you are.


----------



## rich p (14 Sep 2013)

Hont said:


> Nah, he wasn't even breathing hard. Sitting down was for the camera. When you're really knackered you don't want to be filmed, not look around to make sure you are.


 It looked like an AmDram performance to me. Getting two people to give him their shoulders into the tent - bollix.


----------



## Strathlubnaig (14 Sep 2013)

woohoo said:


> I don't usually comment in race threads but I've rarely enjoyed a GT so much with smaller budget teams getting so many stage wins and lots of new riders getting great results and I've never felt so depressed at the overall outcome.


yip, it was a great GT for NetApp-Endura, they will be sure to get more invites.


----------



## BJH (14 Sep 2013)

thom said:


> Time for another caption competition:


Feel the power of the Lord my son, 3 weeks ago I was a washed up old pro with links to shady characters, but the Lord has given me the power to win. I am high on his love.


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## Noodley (14 Sep 2013)

woohoo has summed it up really, great race for the youngsters but tarnished due to Grandpa Broon winning it. His interview shown on ITV4 highlights had me reaching for the heaviest item I could find to throw it at the TV...

Great winning for Elissonde, Allez FDJ!!


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## jdtate101 (14 Sep 2013)

Whilst some point to Froome's win on Ax-3 as suspect, at least his was consistent with previous performances and he's a well known powerhouse at the prime age to be a pro cyclist (28). Horner, on the other hand is much older, has just come back from a knee injury, has never had a stella career, and is known to have worked with doping doctors, management and riders.
As much as I'd like to believe that an old journeyman can have his day of glory and win against all odds, it's just too suspect, especially seeing the apparent ease of which he did it.
I do hope we're all wrong, but I don't think we are.


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## 400bhp (14 Sep 2013)

:awaits the fall out of this:


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## ColinJ (14 Sep 2013)

jdtate101 said:


> Horner, on the other hand is much older, has just come back from a knee injury, has never had a stella career, and is known to have worked with doping doctors, management and riders.


Apart from that it seems almost plausible ...


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## 400bhp (14 Sep 2013)

Just imagine for a second that this would have happened in the TDF.


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## Booyaa (14 Sep 2013)

Very disappointing result. IF he is clean then well done, it just doesn't seem possible. He did seem to be playing up for the cameras at the end. The wife watched with me and after seeing that said "he's a bit of a knob him, I don't like him". 

Good enough for me!


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## Gains84 (14 Sep 2013)

I didn't want nibali to win and sadly horner was the only other option but that highlights interview was so completely cringe worthy and has made me reconsider!:s 
Can purito be given a bonus 5 minutes to cheer me/us all up?!


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## deptfordmarmoset (14 Sep 2013)

Noodley said:


> Great winning for Elissonde, Allez FDJ!!



Yes, FDJ have had a good year that looks promising for the future. And, yes, a great win for Elissonde. (I don't know owt about him, but he's a very crouched climber with enormous-looking handlebars!)


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## Crackle (14 Sep 2013)

This from the Science of Sport guy posting The Clinic

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=1339454&postcount=1351

_"What Horner's impending win cries out for, among other things, are more studies of performance vs. age. There don't seem to be that many in the literature. The studies I've found are fairly old, but suggest that V02 max declines about 5% per decade after 30 for endurance athletes (more like 10% per decade for non-athletes). If we assume Horner reached his physical peak in his late 20s, this suggests a decline of about 7% in V02 max, and presumably that correlates fairly closely with power.

By his own SRM data, Horner put out 393 watts and allegedly 6.05 watts/kg in stage 10, during a 15 minute climb. The aging data suggest that if he did this naturally, then naturally he would be able to put out about 6.5 watts/kg in his prime. That's for 15 minutes, it would be less for 30-40 minutes, but even in the wild west EP0 era of the late 90s and early 00s, you would think someone with that much power would end up as an elite rider on the Euro circuit. And that 6.05 value is contested, it assumes a weight that some think is overestimated (resulting in an underestimate of watts/kg)."_

Sorry but it's hard not to discuss this, nor do I think we shouldn't.


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## Noodley (14 Sep 2013)

Of course we should. He's a cheating nobber.


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## Edge705 (14 Sep 2013)

Even if Horner didn't win look at the alternatives, valverde? nibali? Its a disappointing result all round methinks


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## Pedrosanchezo (14 Sep 2013)

Crackle said:


> This from the Science of Sport guy posting The Clinic
> 
> http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=1339454&postcount=1351
> 
> ...


Vo2 max can decline with age. The figure of 5% after 30 is an average though not a rule. Many athletes peak early 20's and many peak mid 30's. There's no predicting when Horner will have peaked physically and to use generic formula to use as evidence as his doping/cheating is simply misguided.

His power stats for one of the stages was revealed and was under the "suspicious" level created by some number geek who thinks that stats can tell the full story. 6.2kg's seems to be the magic number, under that and you're normal and above then you are doping. Super technical stuff. Horner was gauged as "normal".

The assumption that Horner should have hit 6.5watts/kg in his 20's is dependent on so many factors that i can't see how it can be taken seriously. Was he training in the same way as he is now? Was he with the same coach? Same team? Nutritionally the same? Same weight? Same dedication? etc etc etc. It's just not quantifiable.

I get the argument guys, i just don't see how he could get away with it considering the amount of doping required to make this apparent donkey into a GC winner and contender.

I actually now hope he has been doping, and gets caught soon, as it is the ONLY clear result that can be had that will close the book on this case.


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## Flying_Monkey (15 Sep 2013)

Absolutely unsurprising that most of the comments on Cyclingnews.com after today's stage are all saying how Horner's performance shows what hard work and clearn living can do, and how much he deserves this - this from all the same people who were attacking Froome's strong but much less incredible TdF performance, as unbelievable


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## threebikesmcginty (15 Sep 2013)

Little Chris Horner
Cycled La Vuelta
Eating some drugs and stuff
He must think we're thick
To believe his old schtick
He's a cheating nobber sure enough


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## lukesdad (15 Sep 2013)

The cafe....does racing ! This should be entertaining


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## VamP (15 Sep 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> I get the argument guys, i just don't see how he could get away with it considering the amount of doping training required to make this apparent donkey into a GC winner and contender.



Look at the question in the light of my correction above, and consider his massive injury lay off this season and lack of racing. Doping is the only way to make up the shortfall. I believe I'm right in saying he's just posted the second fastest time up Angliru in the last 15 years!


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## Pedrosanchezo (15 Sep 2013)

VamP said:


> Look at the question in the light of my correction above, and consider his massive injury lay off this season and lack of racing. Doping is the only way to make up the shortfall. I believe I'm right in saying he's just posted the second fastest time up Angliru in the last 15 years!


Can't comment on the speed/time up the climb so will take your word. Who was fastest curiously? Worth noting that many factors can affect performance on a climb and the overall time is no scientific evidence of doping. Nor is an athletes age. 

Many athletes have PB'd after long lay off's as, though they do not have race sharpness, they have fresh legs. A good example would be Niballi as he was far from his best at this Vuelta. Aiming to peak during certain events is also key. You just need to look at Froome at the TDF and compare to his performance in the Tour of Utah. Or his performance at last years tour then the Vuelta. A noticeable difference. Riding one race all year can bring a freshness that is not possible otherwise. 

Again though i am not defending him. In fact i don't even like him. I am defending an individuals right to be innocent until proven otherwise. The problem with this is that the finger can be pointed forevermore, and a rider can protest their innocence forevermore, but the only fact based evidence that can be presented to finalise the debate is a positive test. There is no such similar test to prove a riders innocence. 

So to summarise Horner is guilty until proven guilty.


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## Noodley (15 Sep 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> ...the only fact based evidence that can be presented to finalise the debate is a positive test.


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## rich p (15 Sep 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> So to summarise Horner is guilty until proven guilty.


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## deptfordmarmoset (15 Sep 2013)

Horner's comments yesterday suggested that he had struck a blow for oldies. I'm 17 years older than him and I think he should SFTU.


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## Crackle (15 Sep 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> Vo2 max can decline with age. The figure of 5% after 30 is an average though not a rule. Many athletes peak early 20's and many peak mid 30's. There's no predicting when Horner will have peaked physically and to use generic formula to use as evidence as his doping/cheating is simply misguided.
> 
> His power stats for one of the stages was revealed and was under the "suspicious" level created by some number geek who thinks that stats can tell the full story. 6.2kg's seems to be the magic number, under that and you're normal and above then you are doping. Super technical stuff. Horner was gauged as "normal".
> 
> ...



I've read many different interpretations of the power stats, same as Froome in the Tour, they tell only part of the story. His history, the statements he's made, yes his age, his ambivalence on doping topics, all the things that surround him, tell us the rest of his story. I'm hoping his biological passport data will tell others the same. Let's see if he makes a donation to the UCI...


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## Pedrosanchezo (15 Sep 2013)

Noodley said:


>





rich p said:


>


Well he hasn't been caught doping yet many on here, and elsewhere, already have him as a doper. So he's guilty regardless. 
How could he ever prove his innocence and silence the doubters? Simple, he can't. 

Just watched the ITV highlights and a similar explanation was given in that you simply cannot, in this day and age, ride 2 or 3 grands tours and expect to win them all. A clean rider simply cannot recover in time to be at their best for the next - considering the conditioning and training required to be at peak for the duration. Horner was the freshest of the GC bunch.

Froome focussed his entire season solely on the Tour and dominated. IMO this makes the likes of Rodriguez just as suspicious as he consistently rides 2 GT's a season and still manages to podium on most. Or then there is Nico Roche who has managed a rather fantastic leap in form to finish top 5. 
Or even Niballi, last season he was by no means as good as this season, especially time trialling - a sure sign of doping right? How about the way Valverde bonked and then all of a sudden started climbing like a man possessed? He also has previous and is another one who contests 2 or 3 GT's a season. 
Then there is Quintana, well that must have raised a few eyebrows. His TDF performance was near unbelievable, he must have been on the juice. It just isn't possible to be that young and inexperienced and perform for 3 weeks at that level. He even beat Froome on the final mountain stage. Then there's Froome, many believe he is on some super undetectable drug which allows him to pull his scrawny body up the toughest of climbs with the craziest of cadence. 

I am sure all of the riders i have mentioned have been talked about in this forum with regards to doping. Is this because the riders are likely doping or the mindset of many on forums is set to think this way as default?


----------



## Pedrosanchezo (15 Sep 2013)

Perhaps a sign of the times but wouldn't it be nice if people were innocent until *proven *otherwise.


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## rich p (15 Sep 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> Perhaps a sign of the times but wouldn't it be nice if people were innocent until *proven *otherwise.


 I take it you missed the Armstrong years?


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## Pedrosanchezo (15 Sep 2013)

rich p said:


> I take it you missed the Armstrong years?


Haha, no that didn't elude me. 

Should the present and future of the sport be tarnished with the same brush? 

If a mans wife is to cheat on him would that mean that any future wives should be accused of the same? 

At some point we are going to have to trust the system in place.


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## rich p (15 Sep 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> Haha, no that didn't elude me.
> 
> Should the present and future of the sport be tarnished with the same brush?
> 
> ...


 It just means that you don't need court standard proof to 'know'. Some of us were convinced that LA was guilty for many, many years while others, even on this forum, were using the very same arguments that you're using to defend Horner.
That said, there's a slight difference in that the weight of evidence was more compelling against Armstrong but it's veering towards that end of the spectrum.
I won't give anyone the benefit of the doubt now if there's enough circumstantial evidence to build a case even without a positive result. If you recall, it wasn't even a positive that forced Armstrong to be exposed.


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## ColinJ (15 Sep 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> Perhaps a sign of the times but wouldn't it be nice if people were innocent until *proven *otherwise.


I think the strong suspicion is that Horner isn't really au fait with these times, and is still riding as if it were the 1990s!


Pedrosanchezo said:


> If a man'wife is to cheat on him would that mean that any future wives should be accused of the same?


It's more a case of suspecting a man of cheating on his first wife, and then suspecting that he would probably cheat on any future wives too!


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## Basil.B (15 Sep 2013)

As Jens Voigt said - it's only a cycle race!


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## Pedrosanchezo (15 Sep 2013)

rich p said:


> If you recall, it wasn't even a positive that forced Armstrong to be exposed.



I still think though that at some point we are going to have to trust the system in place to weed out the cheats and dopers. Do we not trust the bio passport? There have been instances of doping this season and we know this because of the measures in place to prevent it. Previously these cheats would likely have gone unnoticed or unpunished. Isn't this evidence that the system is working and worth trusting? 



ColinJ said:


> I think the strong suspicion is that Horner isn't really au fait with these times, and is still riding as if it were the 1990s!
> 
> It's more a case of suspecting a man of cheating on his first wife, and then suspecting that he would probably cheat on any future wives too!



I still feel that those who have a good knowledge of the history of the sport bring the history and all it's baggage into the modern era of cycling. Almost as if Armstrong and his era have damaged the reputation for good, with zero chance of recovery. 
Truth is though that most of the greats have used drugs to enhance their performance. Even back to Coppi where he would openly talk about it as if it was the norm. 

I just find it slightly depressing that every single thread on a race this season has been plagued by the "is he clean?" type comments.


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## Basil.B (15 Sep 2013)

Even the great Eddy Merckx failed a dope test in the 60's.


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## threebikesmcginty (15 Sep 2013)

I've all the proof I need, I saw him on the telly.


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## Pedrosanchezo (15 Sep 2013)

Basil.B said:


> Even the great Eddy Merckx failed a dope test in the 60's.


Yeh like 3 times and those weren't exactly the most stringent of tests. Like so many others in the sport, he denied it always.


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## thom (15 Sep 2013)

Crackle said:


> This from the Science of Sport guy posting The Clinic
> 
> http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=1339454&postcount=1351
> 
> Sorry but it's hard not to discuss this, nor do I think we shouldn't.


I agree on this - for most people, the Science of Sport & InnrRng blogs are amongst the best informed comment out there, doing so on the basis of best attempts at obtaining the best available data.
The comments on personality are rather bewildering to me for such a serious accusation in my opinion.


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## rich p (15 Sep 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> I just find it slightly depressing that every single thread on a race this season has been plagued by the "is he clean?" type comments.


 I can only recall serious doubts being voiced about Sayer in the Tour of Turkey until this Vuelta and we were soon vindicated on that one.


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## gavroche (15 Sep 2013)

Isn't it strange that cycling is always targeted for doping? It happens in probably most sports but no much is said about that, except maybe for athletics. I believe cycling is probably cleaner now than it has ever been, can the same be said for running, swimming, football etc....?


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## Pedrosanchezo (15 Sep 2013)

rich p said:


> I can only recall serious doubts being voiced about Sayer in the Tour of Turkey until this Vuelta and we were soon vindicated on that one.


Niballi was questioned in the Giro as was Froome in the TDF.


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## rich p (15 Sep 2013)

This is an interesting league table
http://climbing-records.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/new-angliru-top-50-champions-set-great.html
1. 2000: 41:55 Roberto Heras 18.32 km/h
*2. 2013: 43:06 Chris Horner 17.82 km/h*
3. 2008: 43:12 Alberto Contador 17.78 km/h
4. 2000: 43:24 Pavel Tonkov 17.70 km/h
5. 2000: 43:24 Roberto Laiseka 17.70 km/h
*6. 2013: 43:34 Alejandro Valverde 17.63 km/h*


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## thom (15 Sep 2013)

rich p said:


> This is an interesting league table
> http://climbing-records.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/new-angliru-top-50-champions-set-great.html
> 1. 2000: 41:55 Roberto Heras 18.32 km/h
> *2. 2013: 43:06 Chris Horner 17.82 km/h*
> ...


And with Nibalil on equal time to Valverde at 7'th, 20 secs faster than Cobo's 2011 time...

Lots of factors influence the times - what happened before on the stage, weather, crowd control, how the race was going etc.
I mean Nibali's time would have been better had he not been rope a doped by Horner and raced at a more consistent pace.


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## rich p (15 Sep 2013)

Of course, @thom , it's just interesting, and far from a smoking gun!
Horner wasn't even on the limit yesterday though and I suspect he could have gone even faster had he needed to.


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## just jim (15 Sep 2013)

I wonder if he really needed carrying off like that...
Mind you must be nice if your feeling a bit puffed out.


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## Noodley (15 Sep 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> Niballi was questioned in the Giro as was Froome in the TDF.


 

So from "every single thread" it's now the giro, the tour and turkey?


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## Crackle (15 Sep 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> I still feel that those who have a good knowledge of the history of the sport bring the history and all it's baggage into the modern era of cycling. Almost as if Armstrong and his era have damaged the reputation for good, with zero chance of recovery.


 
I find that both insulting and naïve. The modern era, as you have it, started, by popular agreement, in 2010 and since then we've still had a string of positives and some success on here at pointing the finger at Vini Fantini riders, Sayer and previously, Horner too, if you recall his rather appropriately named win on Mt. Baldy in the TOC. Not to mention Contador who was under suspicion for some time.

I'd rather be in the mindset I'm in now than blindly accepting all results as I did when I started to follow the sport and it's only with the history of riders can you really decide, this interpreting of times is too broad a sword.


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## Pedrosanchezo (15 Sep 2013)

Noodley said:


> So from "every single thread" it's now the giro, the tour and turkey?


Off the top of my head it is the 3 GT's, Paris - Nice and Criterium Dauphine. That's a fair portion of the years big races - all with discussions of doping.


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## Pedrosanchezo (15 Sep 2013)

Crackle said:


> I find that both insulting and naïve. The modern era, as you have it, started, by popular agreement, in 2010 and since then we've still had a string of positives and some success on here at pointing the finger at Vini Fantini riders, Sayer and previously, Horner too, if you recall his rather appropriately named win on Mt. Baldy in the TOC. Not to mention Contador who was under suspicion for some time.
> 
> I'd rather be in the mindset I'm in now than blindly accepting all results as I did when I started to follow the sport and it's only with the history of riders can you really decide, this interpreting of times is too broad a sword.


Certainly not aiming to insult. I am not of that nature. 

I am merely stating that an athlete does not become a suspicious doper the minute they become a professional cyclist.


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## rich p (15 Sep 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> Certainly not aiming to insult. I am not of that nature.
> 
> I am merely stating that an athlete does not become a suspicious doper the minute they become a professional cyclist.


 To be honest, I'm not sure what point you're making.
Given the history of doping we are entitled to question 'unbelievable' performances. This is hardly the Clinic and we don't, as a rule, throw about wild accusations.


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## Pedrosanchezo (15 Sep 2013)

rich p said:


> To be honest, I'm not sure what point you're making.
> Given the history of doping we are entitled to question 'unbelievable' performances. This is hardly the Clinic and we don't, as a rule, throw about wild accusations.


I haven't read the posts in the clinic but by the sounds of it i'm better not to. 

My point is that i struggle to see a time in the future where a rider can go and win a major race and not be asked "are you clean?". When is that mindset going to change? 

We can draw a line under this if you like.


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## Crackle (15 Sep 2013)

The only thing I would like to add is that if you put in "Horner Cheating Nobber" into Google, Noodley holds prominence on the first results returned: I thank you or rather, Noodley thanks you..


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## raindog (15 Sep 2013)

Crackle said:


> .....if you put in "Horner Cheating Nobber" into Google, Noodley holds prominence on the first results returned


Let's hope Horner's lawyers aren't tapping that into search engines


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## 400bhp (15 Sep 2013)

almost 42 year's old

HELLO

Douglas Adams was not right when it comes to cycling.

Unusual results occur. One offs. Think Nicklaus winning the open at 46, Hereford beating Newcastle United in the FA Cup all those year's ago, Foinhavon winning the National.

They occur, just not in a 3 week feckin bike race. A one-off would be Horner winning a stage.


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## smutchin (15 Sep 2013)

rich p said:


> I can only recall serious doubts being voiced about Sayer in the Tour of Turkey until this Vuelta and we were soon vindicated on that one.



ISTR when I mentioned Santambrogio's form going into the Giro, you were very quick to point the finger at him... 

Innocent until proven guilty my arse. As the legendary Roy Walker would have put it: Say what you see!


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## Pedrosanchezo (15 Sep 2013)

So like i said - Guilty, until he is proven Guilty.


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## rich p (15 Sep 2013)

smutchin said:


> ISTR when I mentioned Santambrogio's form going into the Giro, you were very quick to point the finger at him...
> 
> Innocent until proven guilty my arse. As the legendary Roy Walker would have put it: Say what you see!


 I pointed out that he was under investigation but I don't think we wildly point fingers with no evidence just because someone is winning.


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## rich p (15 Sep 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> So like i said - Guilty, until he is proven Guilty.


 That's rubbish frankly. Most posters on here thought Nibali to be clean at the Giro and also Froome in the Tour. It was the cycling press and fans elsewhere who gave Froome, Brailsford and Sky a hard time.


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## smutchin (15 Sep 2013)

rich p said:


> I pointed out that he was under investigation



Yes, and it's precisely this kind of reasonable comment that threatens to ruin the hard-won reputation cycling forums such as this have for rumour-mongering, mud-slinging and witch-hunting.


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## smutchin (15 Sep 2013)

"@cyclingweekly: Chris Horner is now the first American to win a Grand Tour since Greg Lemond's Tour de France victory in 1990"

LOL

(Corollary question: but for how long?)


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## threebikesmcginty (15 Sep 2013)

smutchin said:


> "@cyclingweekly: Chris Horner is now the first American to win a Grand Tour since Greg Lemond's Tour de France victory in 1990"



Makes you wonder what the yanks have been up to between times.


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## Pedrosanchezo (15 Sep 2013)

rich p said:


> That's rubbish frankly. Most posters on here thought Nibali to be clean at the Giro and also Froome in the Tour. It was the cycling press and fans elsewhere who gave Froome, Brailsford and Sky a hard time.


It was in reference to Horner.


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## VamP (15 Sep 2013)

400bhp said:


> almost 42 year's old
> 
> HELLO
> 
> ...




I was the first to say let's give Horner benefit of doubt after he won one stage. But this is ludicrous. I don't buy the freshness argument for one minute. There's a balance of training, racing and resting that is required for best performance. Just resting won't do it. Are we remembering that Horner missed a chunk of season due to injury? Most athletes never recover fitness in the same season as an injury lay off. Horner manages to achieve the best form of his life. By some margin.

Come on.

I enjoyed this Vuelta, but very much by pretending that Horner wasn't there. And I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but I just wanted to get that off my chest. Done now.


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## Noodley (15 Sep 2013)

Could I also highlight that he is a complete dick just in case that fact is missed in the focus on his doping.


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## RWright (15 Sep 2013)

congrats Chris Horner !


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## Noodley (15 Sep 2013)

LOL


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## themosquitoking (15 Sep 2013)

Maybe Horner just fitted those rounder wheels.


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## laurence (15 Sep 2013)

Euskaltel Euskadi won the team prize!


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## Pedrosanchezo (15 Sep 2013)

Alright lets assume 100% that Horner has doped. What has he taken that has made him go from old donkey to mountain goat and Tour victor?? 

Micro dosing won't come close so what's he on? It has to be some good stuff as no one here believes he is capable of more than a stage victory or two at best. Do we expect it to be revealed in the coming days? 

If he doesn't test positive is he still a cheat? 

I also believe the guy is a complete dick. I don't believe that disliking the guy makes him a doper either.


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## 400bhp (15 Sep 2013)

No idea what PEDs he's (likely to be past tense) on, but it's good sh_it maan.

Suspect he will conveniently announce his retirement from pro racing shortly.


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## themosquitoking (15 Sep 2013)

In his interview on ITV4 just now he seemed to say he wanted to continue.


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## RWright (15 Sep 2013)

I hope he is clean but that dude is old. Time will tell I guess.


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## kedab (15 Sep 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> I also believe the guy is a complete dick. I don't believe that disliking the guy makes him a doper either.


+1 with as much vigor as i can +1 it with...when he's sitting there looking down the camera lens pretty much telling me i should be kissing his feet because what i've just witnessed is legendary and will never be done again, i just want to kick his face off...it doesn't help that i don't believe he's won that vuelta on bread and water but my goodness, a little bit of humility would go some way to helping his cause.


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## Strathlubnaig (15 Sep 2013)

kedab said:


> +1 with as much vigor as i can +1 it with...when he's sitting there looking down the camera lens pretty much telling me i should be kissing his feet because what i've just witnessed is legendary and will never be done again, i just want to kick his face off...it doesn't help that i don't believe he's won that vuelta on bread and water but my goodness, a little bit of humility would go some way to helping his cause.


I am not sure 'muricans do humility very well.


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## kedab (15 Sep 2013)

Strathlubnaig said:


> I am not sure 'muricans do humility very well.


 i didn't write it because i knew i didn't have to...it would have helped though, wouldn't it? i don't want him sobbing and snotting all down his jersey, nor do i want him praising jeeeezus and the like but a little bit of, 'that was frikin hard and i've pretty much done myself in, it was emosh, fanks for watching...oh by the way, i did that clean. believe bredrin, i'll show you me power data and everyting blud', would have been nice


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## deptfordmarmoset (15 Sep 2013)

I agree very largely with @Pedrosanchezo 's point of view. But cycling's problem, at least to me, seems to be less of a case of ''guilty until proved innocent'' as ''not innocent just because you haven't been found out.'' The LA shambles can't even be held responsible for that state of affairs because, though he's perhaps the most notorious recent example, he was by no means the first. And won't be the last. 

Cycling has an enormous credibility gap, which proponents of the ideal of fair competition in cycle racing will feel more keenly than the followers of other sports.

EDIT: Oh I forgot to say I can't stand CH, nor would I trust his word, not because his initials spell the first two letters of CHEAT, not because he's an American, but because he seems more synthetic than anything any chemist has ever produced.


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## Pedrosanchezo (15 Sep 2013)

kedab said:


> +1 with as much vigor as i can +1 it with...when he's sitting there looking down the camera lens pretty much telling me i should be kissing his feet because what i've just witnessed is legendary and will never be done again, i just want to kick his face off...it doesn't help that i don't believe he's won that vuelta on bread and water but my goodness, a little bit of humility would go some way to helping his cause.


Yeh he's not the most humble GC winner i've come across. The way he looked into the camera whilst talking about "legendary" made me feel quite uneasy. 

I suppose doped or not his win will indeed be legendary. Either way he is still a douche.


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## RWright (15 Sep 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> Yeh he's not the most humble GC winner i've come across. The way he looked into the camera whilst talking about "legendary" made me feel quite uneasy.
> 
> I suppose doped or not his win will indeed be legendary. Either way he is still a douche.


 
I am glad I didn't see Horner's post race interview.

I always thought Lance was a douche in his interviews and never cared much for him. I saw him as an unlikeable Lyle Lovett look alike. I was even a little ashamed he was from the South when watching some of his early TDF win interviews. I never watched any of the later interviews.


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## themosquitoking (15 Sep 2013)

RWright said:


> I am glad I didn't see Horner's post race interview.
> 
> I always thought Lance was a douche in his interviews and never cared much for him. I saw him as an unlikeable Lyle Lovett look alike. I was even a little ashamed he was from the South when watching some of his early TDF win interviews. I never watched any of the later interviews.


He pulled Sheryl Crow though, wonder what the drugs did for his performance in that area.


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## RWright (15 Sep 2013)

Lyle pulled Julia Roberts too. Amazing.


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## Flying_Monkey (16 Sep 2013)

If he won clean, this is one of the most amazing GT wins ever. The thing is that the 'if' is a massive, massive 'if', whether he ever tests positive or not. Personally, I don't believe it.


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## The Couch (16 Sep 2013)

Not to put some extra gasoline on the fire... but this is quite a brilliant coincidence :
http://translate.google.com/transla...-Horner-miste-vanochtend-dopingcontrole.dhtml


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## deptfordmarmoset (16 Sep 2013)

The Couch said:


> Not to put some extra gasoline on the fire... but this is quite a brilliant coincidence :
> http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/1297/Doping-In-Wielrennen/article/detail/1705309/2013/09/16/Verdwenen-Horner-miste-vanochtend-dopingcontrole.dhtml


So, the minute the testing passes from ASO to USADA, Horner disappears from his corner?


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## just jim (16 Sep 2013)

400bhp said:


> No idea what PEDs he's (likely to be past tense) on, but it's good sh_it maan.
> 
> _Suspect he will conveniently announce his retirement from pro racing shortly_.



I concur!


----------



## Boris Bajic (16 Sep 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> Alright lets assume 100% that Horner has doped. What has he taken that has made him go from old donkey to mountain goat and Tour victor??
> 
> Micro dosing won't come close so what's he on? It has to be some good stuff as no one here believes he is capable of more than a stage victory or two at best. Do we expect it to be revealed in the coming days?
> 
> ...


 
I was surprised to see him shine in the opening week and thought it a flash in the pan. With (almost) each day, I've expected to see him slip back.

Even with Nibali seemingly running out of puff and only 3 seconds to the good, I was doubting that CH would do it.

But he has. There does seem to be something slightly "Michelle de Bruin" about his late-career transformation. 

If he is juiced, he is doing it well and doing it with great care. At this level, although the performance level is superhuman the increments are tiny.

I imagine that if he is microdosing (and I rather assume he is - although 'assume' is a lazy word), then he is microdosing better than the other riders who are doing so.

I do slightly resent his victory (and cannot work out why). In the past, I've only ever read about the Vuelta and it was just a news item to me, like an EU summit or a panda being born. It's been excellent viewing this year when I've caught it - and an extraordinary race on some days. The climbs and the weather have reminded me of TdF days when I was younger and first got sucked in.

It is funny how even afficionados (and casual observers like me) cannot escape the lure of dope-talk as soon as someone does better than we thought they might.

I think he was juiced, but I think Nibali was too. I think it was an excellent race too.


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## smutchin (16 Sep 2013)

Boris Bajic said:


> I imagine that if he is microdosing (and I rather assume he is - although 'assume' is a lazy word), then he is microdosing better than the other riders who are doing so.



It's a good point - we shouldn't assume Horner was the only rider in the race doing it. He was certainly the most blatant about it though. His comments in his interview at the end were bordering on a big "fark you! You won't catch me, I'm still one step ahead of you!" to the controllers. Quite depressing, really.



> I think he was juiced, but I think Nibali was too. I think it was an excellent race too.



I think Nibali probably wasn't juiced, but I'm open to the possibility that he was. If he was, he needs to work out how to do it better so he doesn't get beaten again by someone nearly old enough to be his dad.

Tbh, I didn't enjoy it as much as last year's Vuelta, and not only because of Horner.


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## The Couch (16 Sep 2013)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> So, the minute the testing passes from ASO to USADA, Horner disappears from his corner?


It seems so, yes 

But Radioshack is now saying Horner changed his whereabouts early enough and it was the testers who didn't check the whereabouts(system) correctly... I guess this discussion is going to be for some while continued (in the press)


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## MrGrumpy (16 Sep 2013)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> So, the minute the testing passes from ASO to USADA, Horner disappears from his corner?




Was about to post something similar after reading the BBC news, just smells a bit iffy ??


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## Hont (16 Sep 2013)

The missed test would appear to be a storm in a teacup. Even if the testers didn't screw up (which current evidence suggests they did) one missed test does not carry any sanction.


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## smutchin (16 Sep 2013)

The Couch said:


> But Radioshack is now saying Horner changed his whereabouts early enough and it was the testers who didn't check the whereabouts(system) correctly...



Well, that should be easy enough to verify if - as the team claims - he received confirmation that the change had been approved.

I'm intrigued, though - when the testers turned up at the wrong hotel, did no one there know where he'd moved to? I mean, it's not like the Rasmussen case, when he wasn't even in the right country. Presumably he was only just down the road in a different hotel, so it shouldn't have been too hard to track him down.

Unless he was being deliberately evasive.


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## Booyaa (16 Sep 2013)

smutchin said:


> Unless he was being deliberately evasive.


That is the big problem, and if one missed test means no sanction.... It makes perfect sense to keep out the way.


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## Noodley (16 Sep 2013)

I've said it before and I'll say it again now; they should put me in charge of it, no testing required but I'd have it all sorted out.


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## thom (16 Sep 2013)

smutchin said:


> Well, that should be easy enough to verify if - as the team claims - he received confirmation that the change had been approved.
> 
> I'm intrigued, though - when the testers turned up at the wrong hotel, did no one there know where he'd moved to? I mean, it's not like the Rasmussen case, when he wasn't even in the right country. Presumably he was only just down the road in a different hotel, so it shouldn't have been too hard to track him down.
> 
> Unless he was being deliberately evasive.


Coming so soon after the race, it is also hard to imagine they could take a sample that might reveal something that the in-race samples wouldn't.
Maybe the different testers have tests for newer things ? Is there an element of mis-trust between testers ?


Apparently this is Horner's stage 10 power data:

With 4.6km to the summit finish, Horner made his attack on the steep pitch to Alto de Hazallanas. He averaged over 390 watts in the final 4.5km with an average cadence of 73rpm at 18.3kph average speed.


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## 400bhp (16 Sep 2013)

Booyaa said:


> That is the big problem, and if one missed test means no sanction.... It makes perfect sense to keep out the way.



and if it's 3 strikes and your out.

Miss this one then retire.

Job done.


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## deptfordmarmoset (16 Sep 2013)

Radio Shack have released his ADAMS email notification:

http://cdn.velonews.competitor.com/files/2013/09/Chris-Horner-email.jpg


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## Boris Bajic (16 Sep 2013)

400bhp said:


> and if it's *3 strikes and your out*.
> 
> Miss this one then retire.
> 
> Job done.


 
In the case of the UK's favourite female track star, it was a case of three strikes and everyone says "You're lovely" and "You're a national treasure".

Dear Christine missed three trests in a row for entirely understandable reasons and got faster and stronger because she trained harder.

I wish there was a little more trust in cycling, too.


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## thom (16 Sep 2013)

thom said:


> Coming so soon after the race, it is also hard to imagine they could take a sample that might reveal something that the in-race samples wouldn't.
> Maybe the different testers have tests for newer things ? Is there an element of mis-trust between testers ?


Gossip from Twitter:
It appears USADA have tested Horner about 25 times in the past 18 months...
The non-missed test this morning would have been a UCI test requested by USADA so may well have been to look at his levels with regard to their blood profiling. ASO tests during the Vuelta I guess don't get sent to USADA ... ?


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## smutchin (16 Sep 2013)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> Radio Shack have released his ADAMS email notification:
> 
> http://cdn.velonews.competitor.com/files/2013/09/Chris-Horner-email.jpg



Interesting to note the "one hour window" line in his email to them. I thought they'd got rid of that and the testers could now turn up at any time of the day. 

Having read Tyler's Book and his explanation of "glow time", this does not inspire me with confidence.


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## jifdave (16 Sep 2013)

smutchin said:


> Interesting to note the "one hour window" line in his email to them. I thought they'd got rid of that and the testers could now turn up at any time of the day.
> 
> Having read Tyler's Book and his explanation of "glow time", this does not inspire me with confidence.


surely thats more of a case of 'i will 100% be home at that time'. he cant be expected to be at one location 24hrs a day


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## Buddfox (16 Sep 2013)

thom said:


> Apparently this is Horner's stage 10 power data:
> 
> With 4.6km to the summit finish, Horner made his attack on the steep pitch to Alto de Hazallanas. He averaged over 390 watts in the final 4.5km with an average cadence of 73rpm at 18.3kph average speed.



I don't see anything in that data which gives much cause for concern - for 15 minutes of activity, 6W/kg does not strike me as being 'not normal'. Also the missed test does appear to be a genuine screw-up by the Spanish doping authorities.


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## thom (16 Sep 2013)

Buddfox said:


> I don't see anything in that data which gives much cause for concern - for 15 minutes of activity, 6W/kg does not strike me as being 'not normal'. Also the missed test does appear to be a genuine screw-up by the Spanish doping authorities.


That's kind of what I thought but... is it really accurate, what do the numbers look like for the latter stages & how does it compare to the others ?

On this climb I think he was also aided by a big tail wind. It should also be remembered that on one of the earlyish climbs, he was kind of cunning in that he got away and made a big time gap, best part of a minute, when nobody took him seriously.


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## Stonechat (16 Sep 2013)

Hont said:


> The missed test would appear to be a storm in a teacup. Even if the testers didn't screw up (which current evidence suggests they did) one missed test does not carry any sanction.


What about the female british athlete who got a ban for missing a test. She arrived at the trrack for training, found it was in use, so went home. Doping team arrived and she got banned. Name is at the tip of my tongue


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## Buddfox (16 Sep 2013)

thom said:


> That's kind of what I thought but... is it really accurate, what do the numbers look like for the latter stages & how does it compare to the others ?
> 
> On this climb I think he was also aided by a big tail wind. It should also be remembered that on one of the earlyish climbs, he was kind of cunning in that he got away and made a big time gap, best part of a minute, when nobody took him seriously.



Well it appears to be the raw SRM data, but your points on time gap, not being taken seriously etc are valid of course. The average power for the whole stage suggests he would have been fairly fresh towards the end, I think. The tail wind is irrelevant though, the measure is simply a question of power, weight and time. A tailwind would just have meant a lower power required for a certain speed (or a faster speed for whatever power output he could sustain for the climb).


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## thom (16 Sep 2013)

Buddfox said:


> Well it appears to be the raw SRM data, but your points on time gap, not being taken seriously etc are valid of course. The average power for the whole stage suggests he would have been fairly fresh towards the end, I think. The tail wind is irrelevant though, the measure is simply a question of power, weight and time. A tailwind would just have meant a lower power required for a certain speed (or a faster speed for whatever power output he could sustain for the climb).


I guess I mean if you were desperate then you could edit the SRM file data but that would require going to big lengths..

Yes regarding power, tail wind is not important but it does play a role in judging VAM and anything else based upon timings of the ascent - for example, we saw the times on the Angliru. A good few riders got good times so you wonder 
1) were the conditions good (there was a barrier on 1 side of the road that helped contain the crowds for example)
2) as you point out, the average power over what came before might have been on the low side

Horner's team ought to release more data now - they've shown they are kind of ok with it


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## Hont (16 Sep 2013)

Stonechat said:


> What about the female british athlete who got a ban for missing a test. She arrived at the trrack for training, found it was in use, so went home. Doping team arrived and she got banned. Name is at the tip of my tongue



Christine Ohuruogu - mentioned previously in this thread. It was her _third _missed test, though. Same in cycling. WADA code is three missed tests in 18 months = automatic ban.


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## VamP (16 Sep 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> Can't comment on the speed/time up the climb so will take your word. Who was fastest curiously? Worth noting that many factors can affect performance on a climb and the overall time is no scientific evidence of doping. Nor is an athletes age.
> 
> Many athletes have PB'd after long lay off's as, though they do not have race sharpness, they have fresh legs. A good example would be Niballi as he was far from his best at this Vuelta. Aiming to peak during certain events is also key. You just need to look at Froome at the TDF and compare to his performance in the Tour of Utah. Or his performance at last years tour then the Vuelta. A noticeable difference. Riding one race all year can bring a freshness that is not possible otherwise.
> 
> ...


 
Top 10

1. Roberto Heras ——- ESP | 41:56 | 2000
2. Chris Horner ——– USA | 43:07 | 2013
3. Alberto Contador —- ESP | 43:13 | 2008
4. Pavel Tonkov ——– RUS | 43:25 | 2000
5. Roberto Laiseka —– ESP | 43:25 | 2000
6. Alejandro Valverde — ESP | 43:35 | 2013
7. Vincenzo Nibali —– ITA | 43:35 | 2013
8. Juan Jose Cobo —— ESP | 43:53 | 2011
9. Alejandro Valverde — ESP | 43:55 | 2008
10. Roberto Heras ——- ESP | 43:57 | 2002


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## Noodley (16 Sep 2013)

Hont said:


> Christine Ohuruogu - mentioned previously in this thread. It was her _third _missed test, though. Same in cycling. WADA code is three missed tests in 18 months = automatic ban.


 

Yep, Offredo from FDJ served a ban due to missed tests


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## deptfordmarmoset (16 Sep 2013)

And on the track, Grégory Baugé lost all his 2011 prizes for missing controls.


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## smutchin (16 Sep 2013)

Interesting tweet from Antoine Vayer...

"@festinaboy: If someone interested in. Got the proof Chris is a liar. A liar, and a cheater concerning the data he gave. Less clever Lance. But worse, so"

Hope he has good lawyers!


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## Crackle (16 Sep 2013)

smutchin said:


> Interesting tweet from Antoine Vayer...
> 
> "@festinaboy: If someone interested in. Got the proof Chris is a liar. A liar, and a cheater concerning the data he gave. Less clever Lance. But worse, so"
> 
> Hope he has good lawyers!


Dunno, I'm not really a fan of Vayer and wasn't convinced by his last foray into power data.


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## smutchin (16 Sep 2013)

The supposed proof is that Horner is lying about his weight (he claims 65kg), ergo his stated W/kg figures are skewed.

Regardless of my own feelings re Horner, I'm not convinced of the scientific rigour of Vayer's claim, tbh.


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## smutchin (16 Sep 2013)

Crackle said:


> Dunno, I'm not really a fan of Vayer and wasn't convinced by his last foray into power data.



He does seem to have a natural instinct to lean towards the pointy finger side when interpreting data.


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## Flying_Monkey (17 Sep 2013)

It turns out that it was not the Spanish testers fault that they couldn't find Horner after the race - apparently USADA did not relay the change of hotel information to the Spanish, and it was hotel staff who leaked the news. So all those online commenters who were blaming the Spanish testers, or the Spanish in general, for either incompetence or worse will have to eat their words now. 

The problem with what we now know is that this does not necessarily make it look better for Horner. Did someone in USADA deliberately not relay the information, allowing Horner time to leave before any test? It certainly smells like the kind of tactics Armstrong used to use. Normally, of course, one could just dismiss this kind of thing as a mistake, as all the American fans seem to be doing, but in combination with all the other indications of something not being right with Horner's performance at the Vuelta, everything starts to look suspicious...


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## deptfordmarmoset (17 Sep 2013)

Flying_Monkey said:


> It turns out that it was not the Spanish testers fault that they couldn't find Horner after the race - apparently USADA did not relay the change of hotel information to the Spanish, and it was hotel staff who leaked the news. So all those online commenters who were blaming the Spanish testers, or the Spanish in general, for either incompetence or worse will have to eat their words now.
> 
> The problem with what we now know is that this does not necessarily make it look better for Horner. Did someone in USADA deliberately not relay the information, allowing Horner time to leave before any test? It certainly smells like the kind of tactics Armstrong used to use. Normally, of course, one could just dismiss this kind of thing as a mistake, as all the American fans seem to be doing, but in combination with all the other indications of something not being right with Horner's performance at the Vuelta, everything starts to look suspicious...


Yes, very very convenient that he missed a post-race test and then was immediately on a flight and therefore unreachable.


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## Pedrosanchezo (17 Sep 2013)

Flying_Monkey said:


> It turns out that it was not the Spanish testers fault that they couldn't find Horner after the race - apparently USADA did not relay the change of hotel information to the Spanish, and it was hotel staff who leaked the news. So all those online commenters who were blaming the Spanish testers, or the Spanish in general, for either incompetence or worse will have to eat their words now.
> 
> The problem with what we now know is that this does not necessarily make it look better for Horner. Did someone in USADA deliberately not relay the information, allowing Horner time to leave before any test? It certainly smells like the kind of tactics Armstrong used to use. Normally, of course, one could just dismiss this kind of thing as a mistake, as all the American fans seem to be doing, but in combination with all the other indications of something not being right with Horner's performance at the Vuelta, everything starts to look suspicious...


See what that nobber Armstrong has done?!!?

We have become so paranoid RE doping in the sport that it becomes entirely possible that USADA, the outfit responsible for finally bringing to light Armstrongs naughty habits, are capable of assisting a cheat because he is American. 

What do USADA have to gain from helping Horner evade one test? What do they have to lose if it ever came out?

I understand the suspicion FM, but speculation such as this could eventually lead us to very far away from where we started - Horner possibly doping.


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## Strathlubnaig (17 Sep 2013)

That was a great KoM jersey for Edet eh ? More to see from him I think, and the French coureurs in general. Sky had a bit of a flat race all in all, probably part of Brailsfords master plan or diversionary tactics.


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## rich p (17 Sep 2013)

Henao was a disappointment but having a reasonably duff Vuelta after the shenanigans of the Giro and the spotlight of the TdF isn't all bad. When all is said and done I think Sky might need to look at their training programmes for some riders and their strategy in some of the races.


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## Noodley (17 Sep 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> See what that nobber Armstrong has done?!!?
> 
> We have become so paranoid RE doping in the sport that it becomes entirely possible that USADA, the outfit responsible for finally bringing to light Armstrongs naughty habits, are capable of assisting a cheat because he is American.
> 
> ...


 

What could the UCI have gained from helping Armstrong? What did they have to lose if it ever came out?


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## Flying_Monkey (17 Sep 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> See what that nobber Armstrong has done?!!?



Armstrong was a particularly pernicious example who needed to be dealt with because he was flaunting his cheating and his actions were corrupting to the sport, however he wasn't the only one, and he won't be the last. And it's not really just because of Armstrong that suspicions are rife around Horner, is it?


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## thom (17 Sep 2013)

User3094 said:


> Could it not be somewhat simpler, that Horner essentially gambled that there would be confusion between the USADA and the Spanish and thus 'capitilised' on that?


Or perhaps USADA were just slightly inept...

Horner has already been tested during the race by ASO many times - USADA are a very underfunded body and have shown remarkable tenacity in bringing down Lance, indeed naming Horner in their report as well. It was a weekend. Perhaps it was just simple human error.


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## smutchin (17 Sep 2013)

thom said:


> Coming so soon after the race, it is also hard to imagine they could take a sample that might reveal something that the in-race samples wouldn't.



My understanding (which I admit may be inaccurate or incomplete) is that there are different kinds of tests. The in-race tests are specifically for banned substances, but apparently, Horner has also been tested a lot out of competition this year, which suggests that USADA are monitoring his blood profile for irregular changes. They obviously think he's someone worth keeping a close eye on. For reasons that are best known to themselves. You can imagine why they'd be keen to check on his blood profile at the end of a three week GT, especially when his performances seem (at face value) not to have diminished over those three weeks...


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## albion (17 Sep 2013)

Reminds me a bit of the Armstrong story.

In the mob handedness, at least.


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## thom (17 Sep 2013)

smutchin said:


> My understanding (which I admit may be inaccurate or incomplete) is that there are different kinds of tests. The in-race tests are specifically for banned substances, but apparently, Horner has also been tested a lot out of competition this year, which suggests that USADA are monitoring his blood profile for irregular changes. They obviously think he's someone worth keeping a close eye on. For reasons that are best known to themselves. You can imagine why they'd be keen to check on his blood profile at the end of a three week GT, especially when his performances seem (at face value) not to have diminished over those three weeks...


It all sounds a mess then - surely the in competition tests can be re-used by USADA. I guess it came about because race organisers such as ASO were not convinced of the integrity of UCI/ADA testing, which is a tragedy.

Reports were of lots of blood tests over the past 18 months for Horner, interpreted as if he'd been singled out for blood profiling. I wonder how different that is to other US cyclists though - I would not be surprised if USADA had ramped up testing across the board as they got more traction with the USPostal revelations, of course paying more attention to all of those that were operating close to Armstrong at some point or other.


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## Hont (17 Sep 2013)

Looks like they're targetting Horner...

8 USADA tests in 2013

c/w
Talansky 1,
Stetina 3
Phinney 4.

Horner tested by USADA 16 times last year.


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## Pedrosanchezo (17 Sep 2013)

Hont said:


> Looks like they're targetting Horner...
> 
> 8 USADA tests in 2013
> 
> ...


IS this legit? How could it be allowed that some are tested more than others? In Europe riders have to account for their whereabouts 24/7 so that they can be tested any time. If you are awol 3 times then a ban is served.

Don't understand USADA's purpose if they test some more than others. Is it because that persons (Horner in this case) bio passport is showing some iffy figures/levels?


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## Pedrosanchezo (17 Sep 2013)

Noodley said:


> What could the UCI have gained from helping Armstrong? What did they have to lose if it ever came out?


I don't think we can use a past example, Armstrong affair and 2 questions, to answer my questions. That's just naughty. 

I also don't have an answer to your Q's.


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## DogTired (17 Sep 2013)

albion said:


> Reminds me a bit of the Armstrong story.



Well, let's see...

He's come from nowhere to... Nope
He's absolutely smashed the field to... Nope
He's got suspicious power figures.... Nope
He's beaten the best in the world... Nope
He's raced far more than anyone else this year but has 'remarkable' powers of recovery. Nope to that too.
He's had suspicions around him for years and has aggressively pursued anyone who spoke against him. Nope.
He's had a team, similarly treated, that could support his performances. Nope.

He's won a GT and there's no explanation as to how he did this. Tick box.
He's a merkin and a bit arrogant. Tick box.


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## smutchin (17 Sep 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> IS this legit?



Questioning the authority of USADA, eh? Now, who does that remind me of?


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## Noodley (17 Sep 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> I also don't have an answer to your Q's.


 
At least you are right on that count.


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## Hont (17 Sep 2013)

Have to disagree with some of these unfortunately



DogTired said:


> Well, let's see...
> 
> He's come from nowhere to... n/a Armstrong was world champion, won San Sebastian and Flech Wallone pre-cancer. Horner gave no previous indication that he could perform at this level in a grand tour. (Human beings have given no previous indication that you can peek athletically at 41)
> He's absolutely smashed the field to... Nope
> ...


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## DogTired (17 Sep 2013)

Tried to format the text better but couldnt....



Hont said:


> Have to disagree with some of these unfortunately



He's come from nowhere to... n/a Armstrong was world champion, won San Sebastian and Flech Wallone pre-cancer_* But its not clear if these were pre-drugs results*_. Horner gave no previous indication that he could perform at this level in a grand tour. (Human beings have given no previous indication that you can peek athletically at 41). *He's top 10'd in a GT* -_* also no-ones saying he's peaking athletically - his results has peaked which is a different thing as it depends on the opposition and whether everything is like for like.*_
He's absolutely smashed the field to... Nope
He's got suspicious power figures....Yep Horner's power values would be suspicious even if he wasn't 41. See many previous posts in the thread. _*Armchair sportsman can sometimes make a point - armchair scientists on the internet rarely so.*_
He's beaten the best in the world...Yep Nibali, Valverde and Rodriguez are amongst the best climbers in the world and that's where Horner won. _*He won over the 3 weeks, climbing is a major part but it is a 3 week gig.*_ His average power values are reportedly higher _*(average, peak, climbing, descending, 5 min peak, in the red zone???)*_ than Froome's from this year's tour. _*This years TdF was supposed to be a climbers tour and Froome and Quintana were higher placed. Richie Porte might be pretty nifty if he wasnt playing 2nd fiddle. Nibali wasnt in the TdF so hard to compare. Valverde came 8th in the TdF. So its stretching the best in the world bit to some good riders at the end of a long season.*_
He's raced far more than anyone else this year but has 'remarkable' powers of recovery. n/a Armstrong barely raced at all latterly and only tried to win one race per year. Horner has been injured all year yet some how managed to train enough to out-climb everyone in a hilly grand tour. _*But this is the Sky philosophy of training to win, not race to get fit, a philosophy which is working quite well. Maybe Radioshack have read Wiggins' book? *_
He's had suspicions around him for years and has aggressively pursued anyone who spoke against him. Yep. _*That can be said about pretty much every pro rider if you vary the threshold - can't find anything on aggressively pursuing accusers...*_
He's had a team, similarly treated, that could support his performances. Nope.


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## Noodley (17 Sep 2013)

It's like the clock has been rewound, the same old guff that the fanboys came out with. 

Look, let's face the facts here: he smells like a turd, looks like a turd and speaks like a turd = he's a turd. 

I have no idea what he's doing/taking but it sure as hell ain't legit. And no amount of guff from apologists giving him the benefit of the doubt or arguing using pseudo-bollox-science proves otherwise. Gone are the days of believing when it all points to it being a fairytale.


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## Pedrosanchezo (17 Sep 2013)

So are you leaning towards Horner's performance as being suspicious Noodley?


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## lukesdad (17 Sep 2013)

Unless its an FDJ victory, Noods is suspicous of all performances


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## Noodley (17 Sep 2013)

lukesdad said:


> Unless its an FDJ victory, Noods is suspicous of all performances


 

I am only suspicious of suspicious performances


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## Pedrosanchezo (17 Sep 2013)

Noodley said:


> I am only suspicious of suspicious performances


Hmmm, sounds suspicious to me.


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## 400bhp (17 Sep 2013)

42


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## Pedrosanchezo (17 Sep 2013)

400bhp said:


> 42


I think if we look at it closely, like real closely. Take it apart and get to the heart of the thing. 

Down to the nitty gritty. The minute details. 

Then step back and see what we've got...............



Then we will see that in actual fact he is 41.


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## Crackle (17 Sep 2013)

Noodley said:


> I am only suspicious of suspicious performances


You are Donald Rumsfeld and ICMFP


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## 400bhp (17 Sep 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> I think if we look at it closely, like real closely. Take it apart and get to the heart of the thing.
> 
> Down to the nitty gritty. The minute details.
> 
> ...



Endurance sport

41 y.o

Nah


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## smutchin (17 Sep 2013)

Noodley said:


> I am only suspicious of suspicious performances



Hence the love of FdJ - it's so rare that they perform well enough to be regarded with any suspicion.


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## themosquitoking (17 Sep 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> I think if we look at it closely, like real closely. Take it apart and get to the heart of the thing.
> 
> Down to the nitty gritty. The minute details.
> 
> ...


42nd year.


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## Noodley (17 Sep 2013)

err, 2 stage wins in the vuelta and top 10 GC placing...you nobber


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## smutchin (17 Sep 2013)

Noodley said:


> err, 2 stage wins in the vuelta and top 10 GC placing...you nobber



Suspiciously overachieving by their usual standards.


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## thom (17 Sep 2013)

Noodley said:


> I am only suspicious of suspicious performances



Nowt suspicious about underage drinking on the FDJ team bus, Kenny's choice of underpants or hold-up tights is there...


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## themosquitoking (17 Sep 2013)

thom said:


> Nowt suspicious about underage drinking on the FDJ team bus, Kenny's choice of underpants or hold-up tights is there...


I like the fact he matches his scarf with his undercrackers.


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## Pedrosanchezo (18 Sep 2013)

themosquitoking said:


> 42nd year.




And when people ask your age are you quick to round up to the next year? 

Yi ain't 42 until you hit 42!


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## Noodley (18 Sep 2013)

thom said:


> Nowt suspicious about underage drinking on the FDJ team bus, Kenny's choice of underpants or hold-up tights is there...


 
He signed a 2 year extension to his contract yesterday so no wonder he's happy.


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## 400bhp (18 Sep 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> And when people ask your age are you quick to round up to the next year?
> 
> Yi ain't 42 until you hit 42!



pfft

41 shmorty one

they roll into one after 40 ;-)


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## smutchin (18 Sep 2013)

themosquitoking said:


> I like the fact he matches his scarf with his undercrackers.



How very French!


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## GBC (18 Sep 2013)

Noodley said:


> It's like the clock has been rewound, the same old guff that the fanboys came out with.
> 
> *Look, let's face the facts here: he smells like a turd, looks like a turd and speaks like a turd = he's a turd. *
> 
> I have no idea what he's doing/taking but it sure as hell ain't legit. And no amount of guff from apologists giving him the benefit of the doubt or arguing using pseudo-bollox-science proves otherwise. Gone are the days of believing when it all points to it being a fairytale.



Love it Noodley - you can take the man out of the Dundee Polis......


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## VamP (18 Sep 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> And when people ask your age are you quick to round up to the next year?
> 
> Yi ain't 42 until you hit 42!


 
I've been telling people I'm 45 for years. Only actually turned 45 this year. Will have to start telling everyone I'm fifty soon.


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## thom (18 Sep 2013)

Cyclingnews chase Horner for comment on whether he is ride 15.


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## The Couch (18 Sep 2013)

thom said:


> Cyclingnews chase Horner for comment on whether he is ride 15.


Either Cyclingnews doesn't like Horner and have written their article in such a way that it reads as if he is evasive about it
or the fishy smell is still lingering


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## smutchin (18 Sep 2013)

Whatever you think of Horner, hassling him when he's just finished a three-week race and is trying to spend some time with his family is a very poor show.

Have CN tried to get a proper interview through the usual formal channels?


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## Buddfox (18 Sep 2013)

His responses to CN seem perfectly reasonable to me.


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## Noodley (18 Sep 2013)

smutchin said:


> Whatever you think of Horner, hassling him when he's just finished a three-week race and is trying to spend some time with his family is a very poor show.


 
The family that are living off his ill-gotten gains...


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## Milzy (24 Sep 2013)

The question is simple & blunt, He's about 42 & exploded towards the end. 

He's one of Lances old cronies.

Then he missed a morning test

Was he doping?


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## mattobrien (24 Sep 2013)

:troll:


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## musa (24 Sep 2013)

this is also talked about in the pro cycling subforum


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## Boris Bajic (24 Sep 2013)

It doesn't matter a jot to me, indeed to many people.

Some fans feel cheated by the likes of Roche, Indurain, Riis, Ullrich, Pantani, Armstrong, Contador, Evans and others. They seem to take it personally and get all uppity, as though we who stay sanguine about it are somehow _'less real'_ in our love of cycle sport. Some fans like to vilify _*this*_ rider while defending_ *that*_ rider to the death. Thus Pantani is a dirty cheat because he admitted it, was associated with bad people, was in dodgy teams and won too much at a time when 'everyone was doping'. Evans, on the other hand, was NEVER a cheat because he looks cute and raced MTBs and he's a cobber, despite his association with Ferrari, Rominger and others and his relatively successful career in the doping heyday. All the bustle of indignation about Armstrong is fun to listen to, but it is often selective and capricious in its manifestation. 

There is a belief that these juicers somehow took a level playing field and skewed it. It was never level. Unless they ran out of juice.

I recall very clearly some moments in various Tours won by all of those gentlemen and I remember being awestruck by the drama and the sheer, bloody effort and high-speed grace of those wins or those dogfight stages. 

I've followed the TdF for decades and it still fills me with wonder. Pantani was (and remains) a hero for me. Indurain too, in a funny Philip K Dick _replicant _way. I have a soft spot for Evans too, after his years as the bridesmaid. The Vuelta was never on a screen near me, so this was the first year I actually saw any of it. It was EXCELLENT. Twice the drama of the last few Tours de France put together. Better to watch than to read about. 

This chap Horner seems more like a Michelle de Bruin than an Armstrong or an Ullrich. He looks like an OK rider who's suddenly got very, very good.

But are we really being cheated? One of my children does the odd TT and looked up to Lance from early childhood. He had books about him. Does he push any less on his pedals now that the truth is out? Did he cry into his porridge when people said bad things? Of course not! 

Horner may be a cheat, but if he is he gave us an excellent spectacle by being one.

Just like all the guys I list above did.


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## Milzy (24 Sep 2013)

Very nicely put, I've always been a Pantani fan but Lance was something else completely different. Not just a cheat but a nasty piece of work. Horrible evil vindictive Bawbag!


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## Rayvon (24 Sep 2013)

Well said Boris.


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## Supersuperleeds (24 Sep 2013)

mattobrien said:


> :troll:



Sagan?


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## Hont (1 Oct 2013)

Horner released his blood passport data on his website last week...

http://www.chrishornerracing.com/13-uci-passport/2013/9/24/2013-biological-passport-results.html

There are, according to more than one source, a number of red flags - although no smoking gun (which in itself would have been remarkable as he posted these values on his own site). The most noteworthy from the Vuelta is the rapid fall in his new red blood cell count, which no-one has yet been able to account for - outside of Horner being some kind of freak.

For an in-depth (but readable) summary...

http://bikerackheads.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/analysis-of-chris-horners-biological.html


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## Hont (1 Oct 2013)

And as for the argument that it's OK to dope if you provide a spectacle. That's just approval of fraud in the name of titilation.


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## rich p (1 Oct 2013)

[quote="

http://bikerackheads.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/analysis-of-chris-horners-biological.html[/quote]
I'm not dismissing out of hand but this may be a telling quote

_I'm no expert in reading blood values_


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## Hont (3 Oct 2013)

There aren't many people that are. And those that do tend not to provide as readable an analysis - as evidenced by the papers that are linked from that article. 

As I said there is no smoking gun but looking at the large and rapid variation in Horner's off score values during the Vuelta I'm in no doubt.


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## Flying_Monkey (3 Oct 2013)

Apparently he still can't find a ride for next season. Looks like no team will touch him.


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## smutchin (3 Oct 2013)

What, not even Vini Fantini?


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## 400bhp (3 Oct 2013)

rich p said:


> [quote="
> 
> http://bikerackheads.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/analysis-of-chris-horners-biological.html


I'm not dismissing out of hand but this may be a telling quote

_I'm no expert in reading blood values_[/quote]

The bloke hasn't a clue and can't do maths.

It aint 1 in a million


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## Flying_Monkey (4 Oct 2013)

smutchin said:


> What, not even Vini Fantini?



Ha ha, apparently not. But seriously, it is probably as much to do with his wage demands and idea that he must be a GT team leader that is putting most teams off. I think most people see it as unlikely that he will ever repeat his Vuelta win or anything like it, given the specific (and still not entirely certain) combination of factors that generated it.


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## Stonechat (4 Oct 2013)

Lot of bargepoles around I think


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## jifdave (4 Oct 2013)

Give it a few more weeks... Let the blood settle....

I think I remember him saying he didn't want to ride all year and only wanted to choose specific races that suited him both physically and time away from home.... 

That said surely someone must want/need all those world tour points


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## Booyaa (7 Oct 2013)

jifdave said:


> Give it a few more weeks... Let the blood settle....
> 
> I think I remember him saying he didn't want to ride all year and only wanted to choose specific races that suited him both physically and time away from home....
> 
> That said surely someone must want/need all those world tour points


was the plan not to change the transferring of world tour points from the end of this year? Making him even less desirable....


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