# New bike - stem clamp not tightened resulting in catastrophic failure



## Howard (3 Jun 2011)

Client of mine bought a brand new bike (£400ish) from an (unnamed) local chain store - not an LBS. 

Couple of rides in the stem clamp drops off, bars with it. Appears not to have been sufficiently tightened. No serious injury, but a long walk home. 

I advised that when he takes it back - the bike is now quite damaged - he should be after some serious goodwill. An upgrade to a £1000 bike wouldn't be unreasonable IMHO. If not, a letter to the Chief Exec, naming the manager on duty at the point of sale.

Out of interest, what do you think? What would you do if this happened to you? And how would handle the inevitable confrontation at the store?


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## david k (3 Jun 2011)

Id ask and expect to be very well looked after. However i wouldnt go over the top, there was no serious injury thankfully. Im sure they didnt do it on purpose. if there reaction is cocky id go full tilt but if they are helpful expect an upgraded bike (maybe no 1k) and a bit of kit and settle for that imo

gud luk


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## screenman (3 Jun 2011)

Not forgetting that we all contribute in terms of increased prices in today's liability culture. That said I would certainly be writing to the chairman of the company personally, find the name on Google and write chairman's complaint on the envelope and letter, if the company is a PLC this seems to have the desired affect.


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## 4F (3 Jun 2011)

If your friend goes in too arsy then the shop may well question whether your friend was the one who untightened the clamp whilst doing some diy. Whilst out on the ride surely he must have felt some movement in the bars to stop before it got to the stage of the clamp dropping off. 

I would approach the shop in a more friendly manner and give them an opportunity in either repairing the bike or replacing it with a like for like offer


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## Rob3rt (3 Jun 2011)

I agree with 4F, handlebars are one of the parts that are moved to personal preference and setup, so whilst they may have made a mistake, if your friend acts too arsey about it, there is nothing stopping them from arguing in their defense that they tighten everything up using torque wrenches and that your friend must have modified the handlebar possition and not done the bolts up tight again.

Unless the bolts just suddenly sheared, how did he not feel any play in the bars prior to the failure?


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## funnymummy (3 Jun 2011)

If it had been my first ride on the bike, then i would be kicking up a right stink, but there is the question of how times has it been riden & for how far.? Bolts can work loose, not often but it does happen, unless your friend can prove the blots wern't tightened fully or he hadn't adjusted the stem in any way I think it's abit of a grey area
 But i'd still try getting hem to fix/reapir/reaplce the bike for free - Got nothign to loose


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## Crackle (3 Jun 2011)

It's just come loose, it hasn't stripped threads or anything and parted suddenly. I ask because it would be almost impossible not to notice. It wouldn't be the first time an LBS has failed to set up a bike properly though.

I think your level of compensation is a bit laughable. £400 to £1000 bike. More realistic would be if they gave him a free multi-tool and saddlepack and then next time he wouldn't need to walk home.


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## Rob3rt (3 Jun 2011)

^^ I was thinking as above, I mean, if it was installed slack, you would notice it flopping about or in the most subtle case, rotating in the clamp. If this is due to poor installation, I'd guess at tightened to tight vs not tight enough.

Agree re. compensation too, £400 - £1k is ridiculous.


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## Herzog (3 Jun 2011)

Sometimes it's difficult to separate the potential for injury (in this case terrible) and the actual injury (in this case nothing). I think your friend would be lucky to get anything more than a free service. 

If he starts getting bolshy, then their line will probably "you were messing around with it" or "it left the shop in perfect working order". Screws do come loose...

Good luck!


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## mickle (3 Jun 2011)

Stem clamps do not fall off. They just don't. Someone is lying or exaggerating or something has been lost in translation. 

If it _came loose_ and some of the componentry was damaged as a result he would reasonably expect the bike to be restored to original condition. Or a refund. Anything more than that is pie in the sky.


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## dave r (3 Jun 2011)

How come your friend did not notice it coming loose? I've had a clamp bolt come loose, it creaked and I could feel the handlebar moving in the clamp. I would understand a failure, snapped bolt or stripped thread but this smells fishy.


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## Mark_Robson (3 Jun 2011)

I fail to see how a clamp can suddenly fall off? 
Most clamps are held in place by four bolts, so the likelihood of them all working loose and the clamp dropping off is remote at best.


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## Sonofpear (3 Jun 2011)

Yeah I am leaning towards what most people are saying here. You simply would have to feel some sort of movement in the bars before they actually fell off. As for an upgrade to a thousand pound bike, can't see it happening, EVER


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## deano69 (3 Jun 2011)

I would agree not to go in guns blazing as they'll just think another false claimant out for what they can get and at the end of the day its their word agaisnt yours and they'll always state how every bike built is checked and then double checked by a fellow colleague before they go out the door, but on a seroius note it could of been a lot worse and the manager needs to know and would be informed by me exactly what happened and what could of happened as a result of someones friday afternoon build, im fully aware sometimes things get forgotten about or left undone if person is distracted as we are only human but with any vehicle there should be regulations and checks by at least 3 people so nothing dangerous or not checked ever goes out the door.

I would stress how it could of been a lot worse but seek some sort of compensation even if that were to be free services for a certain period or some accessories thrown in just something to make you happier.

I know when I bought my bike the one part built in box had minor scuffs on frame due to the way they were packed so I asked for another box to be opened and again that one was even worse and then a third box also packaging damaged but the first boxed bike was least damaged so accepted that with a discount which they could'nt do due to their sales policy so I said ok I will go elsewhere bye.......half way out the door they called me back and threw in several accessories and extended free services so I went for it but at the end of the day you are the customer and always right so they should come up with a solution that suits you both, as he 'll realise it could of been a legal battle if you had been badly injured of worse still killed


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## gbb (3 Jun 2011)

mickle said:


> Stem clamps do not fall off. They just don't. Someone is lying or exaggerating or something has been lost in translation.
> 
> If it _came loose_ and some of the componentry was damaged as a result he would reasonably expect the bike to be restored to original condition. Or a refund. Anything more than that is pie in the sky.



Agree on all points. Bolts that are tightened correctly (assuming they were) dont just come loose. Maybe, just maybe over a long time with vibration etc (and even thats tenuous), but not overnight.

Ideally you'd be looking at repair, replacement and maybe a gesture of goodwill of some kind, but even thats up to the shop in question.


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## amaferanga (3 Jun 2011)

I'd suspect that the guy messed around with it, didn't put it back together again properly and now doesn't want to admit to being inept so is blaming someone else.


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## ianrauk (3 Jun 2011)

So the guy is not happy with an apology and a fix or perhaps a like for like replacement. (If any of this is warranted as I also suspect not is all it seems. Stems do not fall off suddenly.. one would know if was going to fall off anytime soon.), he want's to scam £600 out of the company. And people wonder why this country is going to the bloody dogs.


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## Alien8 (3 Jun 2011)

Howard said:


> I advised that when he takes it back - the bike is now quite damaged - he should be after some serious goodwill. An upgrade to a £1000 bike wouldn't be unreasonable IMHO. If not, a letter to the Chief Exec, naming the manager on duty at the point of sale.



Are you Max Clifford?


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## mickle (4 Jun 2011)

I sold a very nice Kona Killuea to a lad C.1997, a thousand quid steel hardtail. He brought it back in a few days later demanding a refund and 'compensation'. The rear wheel had half its spokes ripped out, the rim was toast and the flange had gone on the hub - so nothing to save there. One of the rear V brake arms was bent all out of whack, trashed, but worst of all the rear canti' boss had been bent almost at a right angle, twisting the seat stay to shoot in the process. Frame was a gonner basically - replacing a stay on a tig welded frame isn't something most framebuiders will tackle.

He was absolutely livid - insisting on getting what he thought he had coming to him and making a big cerfuffle in the shop. He got sweet Fanny Adams out of me - except sympathy.

Why? Because he'd taken it dirt jumping and had cack-landed the rear wheel rendering it so tacoed that it wouldn't pass through the brakes. So he'd unhooked the rear brake to get it home, allowing the V brake to swing down into the spokes. I felt for him I really did but he got nowt out of me.

A couple of years later - in a different shop - the guy who had a Syncros carbon seatpost fail over a woop and send shards up his ass. He settled for a team strip and an apology. 

I wouldn't have...


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## gb155 (4 Jun 2011)

mickle said:


> *I sold a very nice Kona Killuea to a lad C.1997, a thousand quid steel hardtail. He brought it back in a few days later demanding a refund and 'compensation'. The rear wheel had half its spokes ripped out, the rim was toast and the flange had gone on the hub - so nothing to save there. *One of the rear V brake arms was bent all out of whack, trashed, but worst of all the rear canti' boss had been bent almost at a right angle, twisting the seat stay to shoot in the process. Frame was a gonner basically - replacing a stay on a tig welded frame isn't something most framebuiders will tackle.
> 
> He was absolutely livid - insisting on getting what he thought he had coming to him and making a big cerfuffle in the shop. He got sweet Fanny Adams out of me - except sympathy.
> 
> ...



Flip side, just for balance , nothing else, is I get a trek 6300 (or 6700) and on the way to work (Was a commuter only, with slicks too) 7 of the spokes popped, the rim bucked etc etc

I was around 23 stone at the time, but it was just road riding, not fast, not hard, no jumps etc etc

Took it to the shop, they accused me of abusing it (Bike was a week old and didnt have a mark on it)

In the end they replaced it BUT when they gave it back they had set the limit screws wrong (I asked them to check the gears as there was issues)

and 5 mins later the rear mech went into the spokes taking about 3 out 

took it back, waited a week, the boss phoned me, accused me of all sorts, agreed to do it for "Good will"

but when I picked it up was told that I was too fat for slicks and I should be riding on 2.3 knobbly's 

Now I REALLY should have kicked off but I was belittled in a shop fully of skinny cyclists 

The shop in question ISNT a chain of stores and is a famous Manchester Shop


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## abo (4 Jun 2011)

screenman said:


> Not forgetting that we all contribute in terms of increased prices in today's liability culture. That said I would certainly be writing to the chairman of the company personally, find the name on Google and write chairman's complaint on the envelope and letter, if the company is a PLC this seems to have the desired affect.



Found this the other day:

http://www.ceoemail.com/

Sent a formally written, polite email to Halfords CE on Thursday and got a response back from his PA later that morning, promising my complaint would be investigated.

If you're complaining to a large company then you'll find that with people being more savvy about writing directly to the man in charge these days the company will have an executive complaints department. Doubtless my complaint will have been redirected there. But (from experience with a former employer) these people aren't just regular customer service staff just sat at a seperate desk, so we'll see. Plus the PA's email signature had a phone number on so if I don't hear back soon I cold give her a bell 

Sorry, bit of a thread hijack there! But try the website I linked, it looks useful.


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## abo (4 Jun 2011)

Reading more of the thread I've gotta admit this sounds a bit hmm...

Never go into the shop all guns blazing, you just look like a twat to all the other customers and it just gets the staff's backs up often making them less likely to be helpful
Don't go in demanding a frankly unreasonable level of compensation, it just looks like a scam
Don't write to the CEO as first option. I went front line staff -> store manager -> customer 'service' phone number -> CEO


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## GrumpyGregry (4 Jun 2011)

What would I do? Learn how to do an M check before riding a bike. As I maintain my own bikes I know full well that even a perfectly torqued up fastening can come undone with use.


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## Bensbikespares (4 Jun 2011)

GregCollins said:


> What would I do? Learn how to do an M check before riding a bike. As I maintain my own bikes I know full well that even a perfectly torqued up fastening can come undone with use.





+1 and even i have had a few bits go wrong but its just bikes (and me  ) 

If you paid £400 and want £1000 componsation somthing there smells abit


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## youngoldbloke (4 Jun 2011)

Just cannot understand how the bolts would be tight enough for the bars to feel OK, and then undo themselves to the extent of the plate and bars falling off? How could this happen without the rider noticing something was amiss? OP please clarify.


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## Graham1 (4 Jun 2011)

ianrauk said:


> So the guy is not happy with an apology and a fix or perhaps a like for like replacement. (If any of this is warranted as I also suspect not is all it seems. Stems do not fall off suddenly.. one would know if was going to fall off anytime soon.), he want's to scam £600 out of the company. And people wonder why this country is going to the bloody dogs.


couldnt agree more, all people think about now is trying to get something for nothing. Whats wrong with a good old fashioned apology and yes sir we will put that right .


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## Howard (4 Jun 2011)

youngoldbloke said:


> Just cannot understand how the bolts would be tight enough for the bars to feel OK, and then undo themselves to the extent of the plate and bars falling off? How could this happen without the rider noticing something was amiss? OP please clarify.



I suspect they didn't feel OK, but as the chap in question is no expert on cycling at all, I'm assuming he didn't know what / if anything was wrong until the bars were sliding around in the stem. From what I can gather from him, the bars felt loose towards the end of his ride, then the bars came away with the stem face plate falling off. Speculating, I'd imagine bolts could have been incorrectly fitted, came loose, probably dropped out loosening the bars and the remaining bolts sheared under stress. This chap is big, with a lot of upper body strength - to me it didn't seem implausible that he could shear a stem bolt or two. 

Now, you can say that when the bars started to feel loose he should have stopped, and we all know this is what all of us would have done, as we know a thing or two about bikes. But this chap doesn't. Like a great deal of the people who buy bikes these days. Not unreasonably in the first week after purchasing the bike he just wants to ride it, not spend his time checking every nut and bolt on the off-chance that the intern who was working that day didn't notice the torque wrench calibration was off. After all, cycling is supposed to be fun, right?

You are right though, he could be lying, but I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. If events are accurately described, to me it seems it could well have been negligence on the shop's part, and could have caused a very nasty accident. To me, for an establishment to not take responsibility for that negligence and not going a country mile to put things right is a sign of that establishment going to the dogs, if anything. And in having to compensate their customer for this, I'd hope the knock on effect would mean more stringent checks before bikes left the store, which is good for everyone IMHO.


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## mickle (5 Jun 2011)

Like I said Howard - stem front caps simply do not fail in this way. Your friend is lying. Pure and simple.


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## 4F (5 Jun 2011)

sorry but your friend's ignorance in this cannot be soley down to the shop. if he felt something was wrong he should of stopped, much like you would if a warning light came on whilst driving a car


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## Chris.IOW (5 Jun 2011)

Howard said:


> If events are accurately described, to me it seems it could well have been negligence on the shop's part, and could have caused a very nasty accident.



Fortunately compensation is designed to compensate for what DID happen not what COULD have happened. Otherwise everytime I parked my car I would have to start compensating people for the fact that I could have caused a nasty accident.

Your friend has a duty of care to themselves and should ensure their bike was in a road worthy condition, yes we expect things to be okay for the first few weeks of riding, but my new bikes front brake calipers came loose on my third ride, I felt it was a bit loose, I stopped I tightened it and I was new to riding! 

Other peoples failings do not remove the requirement to have some common sense. 

Rant over!!


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## Mark_Robson (5 Jun 2011)

If he was exerting enough pressure on the bars to shear the face plate bolts then he would have had a nasty accident. Sorry but IMO he is talking absolute bollocks as the bike would have been unrideable long before the bolts sheared. Try riding a bike with the bars that loose that you can't keep them centralised and see how far you get.


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## raindog (5 Jun 2011)

Mark_Robson said:


> Sorry but IMO he is talking absolute bollocks as the bike would have been unrideable long before the bolts sheared.


+1
absolutely.
If the bolts loosened up, even slightly, the bars would be twisting and flopping about all over the place.


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## abo (5 Jun 2011)

raindog said:


> +1
> absolutely.
> If the bolts loosened up, even slightly, the bars would be twisting and flopping about all over the place.



Fair comment that. And, if you were driving a car and felt the steering wheel getting lose would you stop immediately, or keep going until it suffers a 'catastrophic failure'?


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## Angelfishsolo (5 Jun 2011)

I also think that the Client and the OP are one and the same and are testing the water.


Bensbikespares said:


> +1 and even i have had a few bits go wrong but its just bikes (and me  )
> 
> _*If you*_ paid £400 and want £1000 componsation somthing there smells abit


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## Angelfishsolo (5 Jun 2011)

+1 It took a catastrophic crash for my stem to rendered loose through stripped bold threads. Even then the stem cap stopped the stem from falling off. I think lots of bollox are being talked here.


raindog said:


> +1
> absolutely.
> If the bolts loosened up, even slightly, the bars would be twisting and flopping about all over the place.


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## Angelfishsolo (5 Jun 2011)

My foot fell off on my ride today and I am going to sue God and demand I get Nick Craig's legs. Oh wait no that didn't happen at all


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## Howard (5 Jun 2011)

Angelfishsolo said:


> I also think that the Client and the OP are one and the same and are testing the water.



Hah no. I'm 5.8", weigh 70kg - I don't think I could shear a stem bolt if I tried, and I keep my bikes in good shape, doing 1000s of miles per year. I have wheels that cost the price of this chap's ride. I admit I don't own a torque wrench, though 

I'll let you know if I learn anything else about the incident. I'm willing to accept that he probably should have stopped once it became apparent there was a problem, but I disagree that sole liability resides with him once the bike leaves the shop floor for mechanical failures resulting from the shop's mechanic's inability to check basic fittings.


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## Angelfishsolo (5 Jun 2011)

*Shear a stem bolt?* You stated it was not tightened properly to begin with. If the bolts were not properly tightened it would have been apparent from the first ride. No parts have worn out or failed so I fail to see how you or you client will have a leg to stand on when you demand your / his £1000 bike because of Catastrophic failure. Learn / teach him how to do an M check and leave it at that unless you / he wants to look like a fool.




Howard said:


> Hah no. I'm 5.8", weigh 70kg - I don't think I could* shear a stem bolt if I tried*, and I keep my bikes in good shape, doing 1000s of miles per year. I have wheels that cost the price of this chap's ride. I admit I don't own a torque wrench, though
> 
> I'll let you know if I learn anything else about the incident. I'm willing to accept that he probably should have stopped once it became apparent there was a problem, but I disagree that sole liability resides with him once the bike leaves the shop floor for mechanical failures resulting from the shop's mechanic's inability to check basic fittings.


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## Bluebell72 (5 Jun 2011)

"Where there's blame there's a claim..."

I _hate_ compensation culture. When will there be a responsiblity culture???
£400 to £1000, you're having a laugh.


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## Angelfishsolo (5 Jun 2011)

Bordering in attempted extortion  


Bluebell72 said:


> "Where there's blame there's a claim..."
> 
> I _hate_ compensation culture. When will there be a responsiblity culture???
> £400 to £1000, you're having a laugh.


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## Howard (5 Jun 2011)

Angelfishsolo said:


> *Shear a stem bolt?* You stated it was not tightened properly to begin with. If the bolts were not properly tightened it would have been apparent from the first ride. No parts have worn out or failed so I fail to see how you or you client will have a leg to stand on when you demand your / his £1000 bike because of Catastrophic failure. Learn / teach him how to do an M check and leave it at that unless you / he wants to look like a fool.



Be nice, read my post. Shearing the remaining bolts after loosing a few could explain what actually happened. As for the M check thing, I agree, at a certain point in a bike's life you should be checking this stuff - but not, IMHO, a week into its life. I'll send him a copy of Zinn though, just for you 



Howard said:


> Speculating, I'd imagine bolts could have been incorrectly fitted, came loose, probably dropped out loosening the bars and the remaining bolts sheared under stress. This chap is big, with a lot of upper body strength - to me it didn't seem implausible that he could shear a stem bolt or two.





Bluebell72 said:


> I _hate_ compensation culture. When will there be a responsiblity culture???



Er, yes, me too - I think it's the responsibility of the shop to make sure the bike is safe to ride when it leaves the shop. And when something goes wrong *and it's the fault of the shop through poor workmanship or defective parts*, it's the responsibility of the shop to put it right. How they decide to do that is up to them, but in the situation where they sell a defective product that caused an accident, and could have caused a very nasty accident, they would do very well to show some generosity if only to salvage a bit of their reputation. Especially if they are very, very profitable (they are). Now, it may turn out that the chap isn't being entirely accurate in his description of what actually happened, and if that's the case, well, he probably doesn't have a case. But that won't change my view that shops should sell products fit for purpose, and that when they don't a financial penalty should be applied that incentivises them to make sure this kind of thing doesn't happen again in the future.

edit: text in bold added for clarity.


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## Angelfishsolo (5 Jun 2011)

How many bolts does this stem have? More than two I take it??? I did read your post and saw nothing that would imply shearing was to blame. In fact my first reaction after reading it was the stem has been adjusted after purchase and not tightened up again. I would LOVE to be in the shop when you present your case. LMFAO.



Howard said:


> Be nice, read my post. Shearing the remaining bolts after loosing a few could explain what actually happened. As for the M check thing, I agree, at a certain point in a bike's life you should be checking this stuff - but not, IMHO, a week into its life. I'll send him a copy of Zinn though, just for you


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## Angelfishsolo (5 Jun 2011)

If the chap isn't being honest how the hell can the bike be classed as "Unfit for purpose"? Seriously I think you need a reality check. 


Howard said:


> Now, it may turn out that the chap isn't being entirely accurate in his description of what actually happened, and if that's the case, well, he probably doesn't have a case. But that won't change my view that shops should sell products fit for purpose.


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## Howard (5 Jun 2011)

Angelfishsolo said:


> If the chap isn't being honest how the hell can the bike be classed as "Unfit for purpose"? Seriously I think you need a reality check.



I think you misunderstood my post. To be clear: if it turns out he is to blame, I agree, he doesn't have a case, the bike was most likely sold fit for purpose, and in doing whatever he did, he voided his implied warranty and all that. Agree, 100%. 

Entirely separate to this issue is my belief that shops have a duty to sell items that are 'fit for purpose' and ensure these items are safe when they are transferred to customers. So should it turn out that the chap wasn't to blame, however unlikely you think this is, the shop had a duty and on this they failed and have a responsibility for this failure. So for example, if it turns out the stem was defective in some way, they had a responsibility to make sure it wasn't before they left the shop, and on this they failed, and they have a responsibility for putting things right. Hope that makes sense, I don't think I can make it any clearer, so if you don't agree, we'll agree to disagree.


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## Angelfishsolo (5 Jun 2011)

If the stem was defective them I agree. However it would have failed on the first ride. The very fact it didn't negates the rest of your argument. OOI you say he is your client - Are you his cycle instructor?


Howard said:


> I think you misunderstood my post. To be clear: if it turns out he is to blame, I agree, he doesn't have a case, the bike was most likely sold fit for purpose, and in doing whatever he did, he voided his implied warranty and all that. Agree, 100%.
> 
> Entirely separate to this issue is my belief that shops have a duty to sell items that are 'fit for purpose' and ensure these items are safe when they are transferred to customers. So should it turn out that the chap wasn't to blame, however unlikely you think this is, the shop had a duty and on this they failed and have a responsibility for this failure. So for example, if it turns out the stem was defective in some way, they had a responsibility to make sure it wasn't before they left the shop, and on this they failed, and they have a responsibility for putting things right. Hope that makes sense, I don't think I can make it any clearer, so if you don't agree, we'll agree to disagree.


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## Howard (5 Jun 2011)

Angelfishsolo said:


> If the stem was defective them I agree. However it would have failed on the first ride.



Really? You can be absolutely certain of this? I wouldn't be comfortable stating that as fact. If it was defective I'd say it would be likely to fail when it was exposed to stresses greater than it could handle in its already weakened state. That could happen on the first ride, the second, the 10th, the 1000th ride, or never. 



Angelfishsolo said:


> The very fact it didn't negates the rest of your argument.



I think you are still bluring two very different issues, and I'm getting the feeling you are trying to pin something on me. I'm not overly impressed. If you aren't, I apologise, but if you are, don't you have something better to do?



Angelfishsolo said:


> OOI you say he is your client - Are you his cycle instructor?



No.


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## Angelfishsolo (5 Jun 2011)

Based on the 2nd hand evidence you have provided so far yes I would say it would have failed on the first ride. Easy to check if the threads have been stripped or sheared anyway so I would suggest checking first.

I am not trying to pin anything on you. In my experience when somebody states "A client of mine" on a cycle forum the relationship is usually instructor / pupil. Either that or they are trying to sound important.

I'll say no more but seriously, get a reality and fact check before you confront the LBS.



Howard said:


> Really? You can be absolutely certain of this? I wouldn't be comfortable stating that as fact. If it was defective I'd say it would be likely to fail when it was exposed to stresses greater than it could handle in its already weakened state. That could happen on the first ride, the second, the 10th, the 1000th ride, or never.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Chris.IOW (5 Jun 2011)

IF and it appears to be a big if, the bolts sheared, surely that fault goes back to the original manufacturer, how was the shop to know that a bolt had a problem that could shear.

IF the bolt sheared through the sheer strength of your client, as you mentioned again, how can this be the fault of the shop.

IF they worked loose, how can this be the fault of the shop. If the incident had happened within sight of the shop maybe but anything could have happened since.


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## Angelfishsolo (5 Jun 2011)

+1


mickle said:


> Like I said Howard - stem front caps simply do not fail in this way. Your friend is lying. Pure and simple.


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## Angelfishsolo (5 Jun 2011)

+1


Chris.IOW said:


> IF and it appears to be a big if, the bolts sheared, surely that fault goes back to the original manufacturer, how was the shop to know that a bolt had a problem that could shear.
> 
> IF the bolt sheared through the sheer strength of your client, as you mentioned again, how can this be the fault of the shop.
> 
> IF they worked loose, how can this be the fault of the shop. If the incident had happened within sight of the shop maybe but anything could have happened since.


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## Howard (5 Jun 2011)

Chris.IOW said:


> IF and it appears to be a big if, the bolts sheared, surely that fault goes back to the original manufacturer, how was the shop to know that a bolt had a problem that could shear.



Are you saying because the shop wasn't the OEM, they bare no responsibility to ensure the products they sell are fit for purpose and not dangerous? I don't think so. I'm happy to concede I don't know the letter of the law on this, but I'd be surprised if you are right, and that Waitrose would bare no responsibility if the chicken they sell, bought through third party supplies, poisoned their customers. This is what quality control, an essential part of business, is supposed to mitigate against. As I understand it, in the situation here, the cost would then be passed on from the shop to the supplier in a chain of responsibility to which there will inevitably some kind of insurance policy in place. Businesses should choose their suppliers carefully to avoid this situation, and budget for their suppliers messing up from time to time. 



Chris.IOW said:


> IF the bolt sheared through the sheer strength of your client, as you mentioned again, how can this be the fault of the shop.



I think it would be if the bolts used to secure the stem clamp were compromised due to poor workmanship (i.e. cross threading, over tightening, under tightening).



Chris.IOW said:


> IF they worked loose, how can this be the fault of the shop. If the incident had happened within sight of the shop maybe but anything could have happened since.



Isn't this a repeat of the 'your client messed with it' argument? I've already replied that if he did mess with it, yes, you are right, it is not the shop's responsibility, but if he didn't, and it did fail within a couple of rides (10-15 miles) I'm still comfortable with my belief that the shop bares responsibility, and that they should stand behind the products they sell, and the services they provide.


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## Chris.IOW (5 Jun 2011)

Howard said:


> Are you saying because the shop wasn't the OEM, they bare no responsibility to ensure the products they sell are fit for purpose and not dangerous? I don't think so. I'm happy to concede I don't know the letter of the law on this, but I'd be surprised if you are right, and that Waitrose would bare no responsibility if the chicken they sell, bought through third party supplies, poisoned their customers. This is what quality control, an essential part of business, is supposed to mitigate against. As I understand it, in the situation here, the cost would then be passed on from the shop to the supplier in a chain of responsibility to which there will inevitably some kind of insurance policy in place. Businesses should choose their suppliers carefully to avoid this situation, and budget for their suppliers messing up from time to time.



How? You can't look at a bolt and say, you know what this one looks a bit dodgy, lets try another, to see the possibilty of a bolt shearing you would need special Non Destructive test equipment, you couldn't possibly expect the shops to have that sort of equipment, that testing would be done by the OEM who would certifiy the product is suitable for use.

What if the frame had snapped, would you still be holding the shop responsible or the manufacturer.


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## Crackle (5 Jun 2011)

I still don't believe your client, not a jot, not an iota. What he's done is adjust the stem for position, he's then cack handedly tightened it up and sheared one or two bolts. He's then thought crikey and tried to shift the blame elsewhere. 

No one else on this thread believes him either, nor do we agree with your views on this. You only have to read a few threads on bike problems to see that mostly the consensus view is right, there's a lot of knowledge on this forum.

Quite honestly if he is telling the truth I think he'd get more from the shop if he took a more humble approach. I know if someone came in to me shouting the odds with a problem like this I'd send them off with a flea in their ear, whereas if they played the innocent I'd be more likely to give them the benefit of the doubt.


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## Howard (5 Jun 2011)

Chris.IOW said:


> How? You can't look at a bolt and say, you know what this one looks a bit dodgy, lets try another, to see the possibilty of a bolt shearing you would need special Non Destructive test equipment, you couldn't possibly expect the shops to have that sort of equipment, that testing would be done by the OEM who would certifiy the product is suitable for use.



Yes, you are completely right. That's why (sensible) shops mitigate the need for this by vetting their suppliers very carefully, having insurance in place for the occasions where their suppliers slip up, and maintaining good relations with their suppliers so that when things do go wrong they can work together easily to sort things out. Quality control isn't just checking products before they go out the door, it's part of operations, too. 



Chris.IOW said:


> What if the frame had snapped, would you still be holding the shop responsible or the manufacturer.



The shop would certainly be the first point of contact, and I'd expect them to work with the manufacturer to have the product replaced and absorb the costs of any compensation to the customer. These costs would inevitably be passed down the supply chain and probably ultimately borne out by an insurance policy. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I'd be amazed if a shop weren't extremely helpful in the event of a failure like that - the only thing they have to lose is their reputation. Same goes for a big name supplier. Any costs of replacement or compensation would eventually be passed on to their supplier, in turn, until the organisation at fault is rightfully charged for the consequences of their mistake.


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## Howard (5 Jun 2011)

Crackle said:


> I still don't believe your client, not a jot, not an iota. What he's done is adjust the stem for position, he's then cack handedly tightened it up and sheared one or two bolts. He's then thought crikey and tried to shift the blame elsewhere.



I've already stated that if it was his fault, he's to blame. Shop bares no responsibility. But i think it's worth considering what the course of action would be should it turn out you are wrong, no matter how unlikely you believe that to be, and the conversation has moved on to that. After all, only he knows what really happened - his description to me could have been wrong, or how I interpreted it could have been wrong. What I do know is that he does not believe he is responsible, and he didn't strike me as deluded or a fibber or both, leaving me thinking either he didn't describe what happened well, I didn't interpret it well, or something that really shouldn't have happened, actually happened. 



Crackle said:


> Quite honestly if he is telling the truth I think he'd get more from the shop if he took a more humble approach. I know if someone came in to me shouting the odds with a problem like this I'd send them off with a flea in their ear, whereas if they played the innocent I'd be more likely to give them the benefit of the doubt.



I don't think anyone has suggested he should go back to the shop and lie. And I wouldn't ever suggest he gets angry - attract more flies with honey and all that. Cheers for the input, though.


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## Chris.IOW (5 Jun 2011)

Howard said:


> The shop would certainly be the first point of contact, ement or and I'd expect them to work with the manufacturer to have the product replaced and absorb the costs of any compensation to the customer.



Absolutley, and that is who your contract is with so you would have to go through the shop, I was looking more at where ultimate responsibility would lie.

Agree that the shops have an important role to play in managing the quality of their supply chain, but in reality how much influence would an independant LBS be able to exert into a large manufacturer such as Specialized for example.


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## Bluebell72 (5 Jun 2011)

Howard, you say 'be nice' and 'read my post' yet...



Howard said:


> I advised that when he takes it back - the bike is now quite damaged - he should be after some serious goodwill. An upgrade to a £1000 bike wouldn't be unreasonable IMHO. If not, a letter to the Chief Exec, naming the manager on duty at the point of sale.




you have advised your 'client' to act in the most immoral way; later you say that it's not a local bike shop that is implicated in this, but a large company, the implication that they are making so much profit that they won't notice a £600 loss.

How about said 'client' using some common sense and going in for some discussion, to see how the issue could be resolved?


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## 4F (5 Jun 2011)

i still think "your client" has ham fistedly adjusted the stem and is to blame as well as being a numpty for not stopping when he felt some movement in the bars. The suggestion that you made to him to ask for a £1000 bike as compensation is nothing short of a joke.


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## Sonofpear (5 Jun 2011)

I've read all the posts here and find the story of numerous bolts shearing, and or bolts loosening without the rider realizing to be totally crazy. 
Now I work in a steel engineering factory where we drill and tap holes all the time. Now I don't exact figures or the type of stem set up but the directional force required to strip a thread is probably mote than your average person could exert. And for multiple failures is just madness. For the front stem plate to come off surely the applied force to the bars/stem/bolts would have to be applied from a totally un-natural angle that would not occur during your normal everyday ride.


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## Crackle (5 Jun 2011)

Howard said:


> I've already stated that if it was his fault, he's to blame. Shop bares no responsibility. But i think it's worth considering what the course of action would be should it turn out you are wrong, no matter how unlikely you believe that to be, and the conversation has moved on to that. After all, only he knows what really happened - his description to me could have been wrong, or how I interpreted it could have been wrong. What I do know is that he does not believe he is responsible, and he didn't strike me as deluded or a fibber or both, leaving me thinking either he didn't describe what happened well, I didn't interpret it well, or something that really shouldn't have happened, actually happened.



Well, that's the point, I don't think it's worth considering what responsibility the shop has until you find a way to convince them that they have some responsibility for this, that's what no one can get past. The rest is moot at the moment.


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## abo (5 Jun 2011)

This is just going to bounce back and forth, get unpleasent and add no extra value. I think it'd be better if the thread were locked and we moved on


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## youngoldbloke (5 Jun 2011)

Howard - have you actually seen the stem, and the damage? It seems we are all making all sorts of assumptions, without any real evidence of what has actually happened.


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## Scruffmonster (5 Jun 2011)

Howard said:


> Client of mine bought a brand new bike (£400ish) from an (unnamed) local chain store - not an LBS.
> 
> Couple of rides in the stem clamp drops off, bars with it. Appears not to have been sufficiently tightened. No serious injury, but a long walk home.
> 
> ...



Same thing happened to my mate on the first ride on his Boardman [bought from an unnamed store




] though it was his headset that hadn't been tightened. He'd stupidly gone on the first ride without transferring has saddle pack with tools so was left with a long wait in the lanes for back up.

Anyways, he got the bike serviced again, a free service at the LBS store of his choice for peace of mind, plus a £30 gift voucher.

I only write that as a way to establish minimum compensation. He hadnt fallen off, the bike wasn't damaged, but he still got a half decent apology.

{Edit, just realised that this thread turned into a shoot storm, ignore the above}


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## mickle (5 Jun 2011)

Imagine what series of events would have to take place for four stem bolts to fail and cause the front cap to 'fall off'. It's an impossibility. The OP owes it to the assembled masses to contact his client asap to clarify exactly what happened.

I'm more than a little dismayed that he hasn't yet since that would be the obvious way of putting this to bed.


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## ianrauk (5 Jun 2011)

mickle said:


> Imagine what series of events would have to take place *for four stem bolts to fail and cause the front cap to 'fall off'.* It's an impossibility. The OP owes it to the assembled masses to contact his client asap to clarify exactly what happened.
> 
> I'm more than a little dismayed that he hasn't yet since that would be the obvious way of putting this to bed.



The story is so far fetched it's unbelievable..


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## slowmotion (5 Jun 2011)

Wasn't there a thread, not too long ago, where some guy was asking how much he should get in compensation after riding his bike into the back of a car that braked in front of him?


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## Wankelschrauben (5 Jun 2011)

This is quite a funny read really, clearly some thing isn't quite adding up.


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## chewy (6 Jun 2011)

Ha, sounds like either another money grabber, or another idiot when cannot possibly think for themselves! 

Was he on his way to the Jeremy Kyle studios at the time of the incident?!

Sorry if I sound harsh but, really? There's little about this tale that adds up or any proposed answers that are reasonable/fair, this seems to be backed up by all the replies on the thread! 

Doesn't sound like a hard fix either, so why all the hoohar? Sounds like your 'client' has either buggered it up himself (so needs to put his hands up to it, no shame - we all make mistakes) or has been so stupid not to notice a loose stem (annoying, but easily sorted if tightened immediately). Unless through either of those, he's trying it on - in which case I hope he gets nowhere with it!


God forbid people act fairly, with some level of intelligence.


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## festival (6 Jun 2011)

Howard said:


> Client of mine bought a brand new bike (£400ish) from an (unnamed) local chain store - not an LBS.
> 
> Couple of rides in the stem clamp drops off, bars with it. Appears not to have been sufficiently tightened. No serious injury, but a long walk home.
> 
> ...



To go back to the original question, "What would I do" Well I would be embarrassed that I had not noticed the plate was loose and had worked it self loose and fallen off resulting in damage to the bike.

Or of course I could make up a cock & bull story about what went wrong?


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## TheDoctor (6 Jun 2011)

If I'd done anything that daft I'd be keeping quiet about it 
I haven't done anything that daft. Obviously


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## moxey (6 Jun 2011)

Looking forward to seeing how this ends up. 
When is he taking it into the shop ?


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## abo (6 Jun 2011)

moxey said:


> Looking forward to seeing how this ends up.
> When is he taking it into the shop ?



I'd put a wager on us not finding out. Hope I'm wrong, it'd an interesting read


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## GrumpyGregry (6 Jun 2011)

Howard said:


> As for the M check thing, I agree, at a certain point in a bike's life you should be checking this stuff - but not, IMHO, a week into its life.



The certain point to start doing M checks is just after you wheel the bike out of the shop doors, if not actually in the shop before you accept delivery. 

Thereafter you should be doing one before every ride. That's EVERY ride as in 'each and....' Yep even after you've left your ride outside a cafe in case some wag flipped your QR while you were drinking your latte. Been there, and with no lawyer tabs it could have been painful.

Besides all this to obtain compensation justly, rather than through bullying, intimidation and blackmail, surely the buyer would have to prove negligence on the part of someone. A mechanic screwing up the fitting of a stem bolt is not necessarily negligent per se.


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## Borbus (6 Jun 2011)

It's very easy to tell when the stem bolts become even slightly loose because the bike become almost impossible to control. I know this from experience... and it's not a very pleasant feeling. There's no way they could continue to ride until they became so loose that the handlebars fell off.


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## Bicycle (6 Jun 2011)

Tee Hee... I think the OP was put up as a joke....

I think the author is still giggling at getting so many responses .

The situation described is no one that any cyclist (or cycle-shop employee) would take seriously.

This is the sort of thing that only happened in Norman Wisdom films.

*"Bikes fine... Bike's fine..... Bike's fine... Bike's fine.... AAAARGH! The handlebars aren't attached!"

*You don't need to be a lifelong bicycle mechanic to know there are several paragraphs missing in the above chain of events. 

I've been back to cycle shops a couple of times over the years and have always found that they have a grown-up attitude to good will and customer service.

Did the 'client' ever work at Ealing Film Studios by any chance?


But well done for getting 5 pages of responses to a joke posting!


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## 4F (6 Jun 2011)

Wouldn't have happened with a quill stem, old skool rocks


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## Norm (6 Jun 2011)

I think that several have misunderstood the OP. Or maybe I have.

The way I have read it, it's not the clamp from the stem to the steerer which went but the clamp from the stem to the bars. 

So, for instance, a quill stem could still fail if not properly tightened onto the bars, the stem wouldn't be damaged and so on. 

I can also imagine (but only just) that if the bars were just clamped by the top two bolts, for instance, that it could feel ok to someone who hadn't ridden for a while until both of those bolts sheared and dumped you face first onto the tarmac the first time you braked hard.

Not supporting the OP or disputing many of the counter claims, just that I think many people are considering the clamp at the wrong end of the stem.


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## 4F (6 Jun 2011)

Norm said:


> but the clamp from the stem to the bars.
> 
> So, for instance, a quill stem could still fail if not properly tightened onto the bars, the stem wouldn't be damaged and so on.



yep same clamp as we are all referring to. Given that I have to thread my bars through my quill the only way my bars could drop off in the alleged same way would be for the quill to fracture.

Even more unlikely a scenario than the "client".


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## youngoldbloke (6 Jun 2011)

If you are worried about it happening to you fit these.


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## Norm (6 Jun 2011)

4F said:


> yep same clamp as we are all referring to. Given that I have to thread my bars through my quill the only way my bars could drop off in the alleged same way would be for the quill to fracture.


Yes, I can see that (although the fracturing quill was what I meant) but the other comments about, for instance, damaging the stem or the bike becoming uncontrollable before the failure.


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## Mark_Robson (6 Jun 2011)

Howard said:


> Couple of rides in the stem clamp drops off, bars with it. Appears not to have been sufficiently tightened. No serious injury, but a long walk home.


Although the story has evolved from the OP the above suggests to me that the "clamp" failed because it was slack. If the face plate was that slack then the bars would move laterally as well as rotate. This IMO would make for an unridable bike.


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## abo (6 Jun 2011)

Mark_Robson said:


> Although the story has evolved from the OP the above suggests to me that the "clamp" failed because it was slack. If the face plate was that slack then the bars would move laterally as well as rotate. This IMO would make for an unridable bike.



I'd agree with this, even me being a total n00b. Even a small slackening of the face plate would result in the bars becoming loose enough for me to think 'something wrong here' and at least get off and have a look.


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## ianrauk (6 Jun 2011)

abo said:


> I'd agree with this, even me being a total n00b. Even a small slackening of the face plate would result in the bars becoming loose enough for me to think 'something wrong here' and at least get off and have a look.



Exactly. Even the most non bike mechanically minded would have felt something amiss.
I can't imagine the OP was so green as to have not noticed that the handlebars would have felt lose. They would have turned in the stem for a starters.


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## zigzag (6 Jun 2011)

the op story is dodgy that's for sure, BUT i've seen a front plate breaking off after a crash. the stem (not sure if oem or aftermarket) was installed on a good quality road bike, the crash was tipping over on a side at low speed. it was a two bolt clamp and the steel bolts came out with aluminium spirals around their threads. luckily another stem could be sourced and the rider continued his journey.


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## Angelfishsolo (7 Jun 2011)

I'm quite happy to accept that a faceplate could come off after a crash. However this is not what is being suggested. 


zigzag said:


> the op story is dodgy that's for sure, BUT i've seen a front plate breaking off after a crash. the stem (not sure if oem or aftermarket) was installed on a good quality road bike, the crash was tipping over on a side at low speed. it was a two bolt clamp and the steel bolts came out with aluminium spirals around their threads. luckily another stem could be sourced and the rider continued his journey.


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## colinr (7 Jun 2011)

My sister had her handlebars come off due to a bolt dropping out of an adjustable quill stem. Probably worked loose over time, there's no way she would have been touching the bike with any tools, didn't suspect anything was amiss until she found herself holding the handlebars separate from the bike.

Point being, not everyone knows how to maintain a bike nor do they necessarily notice when something isn't how it should be. Even if it's blindingly obvious to you lot what ride bikes all the time.

I'm assuming the bike in question had flat bars, drops with a loose faceplate would just run away as soon as you leaned on the hoods.


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## abo (7 Jun 2011)

colinr said:


> My sister had her handlebars come off due to a bolt dropping out of an adjustable quill stem. Probably worked loose over time, there's no way she would have been touching the bike with any tools, didn't suspect anything was amiss until she found herself holding the handlebars separate from the bike.
> 
> Point being, not everyone knows how to maintain a bike nor do they necessarily notice when something isn't how it should be. Even if it's blindingly obvious to you lot what ride bikes all the time.
> 
> I'm assuming the bike in question had flat bars, drops with a loose faceplate would just run away as soon as you leaned on the hoods.



I reckon I'd notice even a flat bar start to turn in the stem


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## Angelfishsolo (7 Jun 2011)

Subtle things like the gear shifters and brake levers being in the wrong place for example 


abo said:


> I reckon I'd notice even a flat bar start to turn in the stem


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## colinr (7 Jun 2011)

I'm trying to visualise it. As long as you were holding onto the bars and not pulling hard on them (let's assume a very gentle ride) you could conceivable ride unaware of them being slightly loose. But loose enough to drop off, I have to agree that you'd be riding with your brakes perpendicular to the ground. I'd hope that would sound alarm bells, but you never know!


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## Chris.IOW (7 Jun 2011)

colinr said:


> I'd hope that would sound alarm bells




Possibly not, the bell would be in the wrong place as well and therefore difficult to sound.


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## Angelfishsolo (7 Jun 2011)

LMAO


Chris.IOW said:


> Possibly not, the bell would be in the wrong place as well and therefore difficult to sound.


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## Speedywheelsjeans (7 Jun 2011)

Unless the bolts holding the stem cap in were only just biting the thread at its tightest point, then there would have been loads of linear play as well as lateral, therefore making the bike un-ride-able as there would have been no tension in the bars to control the bike. If you think he is genuinely telling the truth then check they put the correct bolt sizes in... Otherwise I smell a fish or something far smellier :S


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## ianrauk (9 Jun 2011)

Any update with this? We're all holding on by the stembolts here.


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## Herzog (9 Jun 2011)

ianrauk said:


> Any update with this? We're all holding on by the stembolts here.




I'm not, I fell off without explanation


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## Chris.IOW (9 Jun 2011)

Herzog said:


> I'm not, I fell off without explanation



Lmao

I did notice this had all gone quiet, perhaps the 'inevitable' confrontation mentioned in the OP has gone on longer then anticipated!!


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## Angelfishsolo (9 Jun 2011)

The thread was running along quite happily and then ended in catastrophic failure


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## Angelfishsolo (9 Jun 2011)

Or somebody got punched in the mouth 


Chris.IOW said:


> Lmao
> 
> I did notice this had all gone quiet, perhaps the 'inevitable' confrontation mentioned in the OP has gone on longer then anticipated!!


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## Angelfishsolo (13 Jun 2011)

I am still hoping that the OP will update us.


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## Bluebell72 (13 Jun 2011)

I fear we will wait and wait.

It's not a clamp issue, more of a crank issue.


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## funnymummy (13 Jun 2011)

I had a catastrophic moment today... Black kitten + black leather chair = Ouchie!


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## Chris.IOW (13 Jun 2011)

funnymummy said:


> I had a catastrophic moment today... Black kitten + black leather chair = Ouchie!



I hope you've demanded compensation in the form of a Lion...it's only slightly more ridiculous then a £1k bike!!!


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## abo (13 Jun 2011)

Chris.IOW said:


> I hope you've demanded compensation in the form of a Lion...it's only slightly more ridiculous then a £1k bike!!!



Thanks Chris, I'll be demanding compensation from *you* in the form of a new keyboard, as this one now has Coke Zero spat all over it


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## funnymummy (13 Jun 2011)

I was thinking more about a Black Panther, Sort of like my kittens but bigger & therefore more visible.
Of course I was going to be really ridiculous I could claim some form of compo the breeder, it is her responsibility for selling me faulty kittens...?


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## Mark_Robson (13 Jun 2011)

Now if the kitten had been wearing high viz..................


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## fossyant (13 Jun 2011)

I blame Wiggle.

PS there is an infamous BR thread and now everyone blames Wiggle


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## funnymummy (13 Jun 2011)

Mark_Robson said:


> Now if the kitten had been wearing high viz..................



 I have considered it.... Kittens on the landing at 3am as I dash to the loo is not pleasant either, nearly got knocked down the stairs as one shot accross my path... Mind you if i had been wearing a helmet I would have been ok

Do Wiggle do kitten sized vests...?


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## Bicycle (13 Jun 2011)

Was the kitten wearing a helmet?


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## funnymummy (13 Jun 2011)

Bicycle said:


> Was the kitten wearing a helmet?



I'm off to Wiggle to order Puddy vests & helmets, what colour should I go for, I'm thinking the neon pink would look best on them


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## 4F (22 Jul 2011)

Come on Howard, let's have a progress report.


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