# Disc Brake Road Bike, What's Feasible?



## MacB (12 Jul 2010)

As per the title I've been musing over this for a while, looking at things like the Genesis Croix De Fere, Orbea Diem Drop, Kona Sutra and Honky Inc, Marin Toscana...to name a few. There are also a few of the flat bar road/hybrids with discs and the recent change to UCI rules for cross racing, to permit disc brakes, will mean more coming out. But they all lack something componentry wise and, most especially, in weight, all coming in at 25lbs plus.

I'd like a drop bar bike with Avid BB7 road mechanical disc brakes, compact chainset 34/50, 10 speed 12-27, cross top levers and clearance for up to 32mm tyres. Coming in at sub 20lbs!!! By my reckoning:-

2.41lbs = bars, bar tape, extra padding(for my delicate handies), Dura Ace shifters, Tektro Crosstops, handlebars and all cables including outers.

7.98lbs = chain, 50/34 chainset, BB, Pedals, BB7 brakes including rotors, front and rear deraillers, headset, seatpost clamp, stem, spacers, saddle and seatpost.

2.20lbs = 700x32 tyres with rim tape and inner tubes, allowing about 350g per tyre

So that comes to 12.59lbs leaving only 7.4lbs to cover frame, forks and wheelset in order to reach a total weight of 19.99lbs, is it doable? I can find carbon disc forks at 1.5lbs, so that leaves us 5.9lbs for frame and wheelset. Or have I overestimated for some of the componentry weights?


----------



## HJ (12 Jul 2010)

The Kinesis Crosslight3 Disc fork is 693g which is only 13g over your target weight.If you saw of the canti mounts you could probably get it below your target...


----------



## MacB (12 Jul 2010)

HJ said:


> The Kinesis Crosslight3 Disc fork is 693g which is only 13g over your target weight.If you saw of the canti mounts you could probably get it below your target...




 It was a Kinesis carbon disc fork that I got the 0.68kg from on a website.

Problem is that I'd like something really nice, Colnago or similar(maybe without the name in 400 places on the frame though), just with disc brakes and a teensy bit more clearance. I noted that the Kona Haole road frame is only 1.3kg in steel, so that would give us a total bike weight, excluding wheelset, of 16.95lbs.

Leaving 3.04lbs or 1.38kg for the wheelset including skewers, I can easily reach about 1.8kg or 3.96lbs for a wheelset. It's strange I can find all sorts of bikes around the 15-16lb mark. The weight differences for the disc brakes and bigger tyres don't come to anything like enough to tip these over the 20lb mark. Maybe I'll need to revise my weight target up to a max of 22lbs.


----------



## Jezston (13 Jul 2010)

Very interested in what you glean from your research, MacB! Currently ride a Kona Dew with mech discs and looking for something lighter and better with drops for my next bike - absolutely fell in love with the Croix De Fer, beautiful looking thing ... but not really any lighter than my £400 Dew!

Currently looking custom build myself with cantis or vees on the rear and disc (or even hub?!?) at the front, but options do look VERY limited.

Disc brakes now legal in cross? Now that is exciting news. Look forwards to what the manufacturers make of that!


----------



## MacB (13 Jul 2010)

Well. having read a horrendously large, and often semi literate, amount of guff around this subject.....my conclusion is.....need to wait until the new rulings filter through via the manufacturers. Unless you go down the full custom, ie expensive, route the options are very limited. I expect we'll see the first bigger steps in Cyclocross and there's a fair bit of bleedover into touring. If the sales are there then it should hit Audax/Sportive next and finally, if ever, road race. The three main negatives are:-

braking power - road bikes stop well enough already and the limitations are around the size of the contact patch, ie tyre to road surface interface
Weight - don't want anything that adds weight
not needed - basically what exists works fine

On the flip side I've found little information to support a benefit to speed of tight clearances, though I accept I'm no engineer. It does seem to be a lot to do with brake pull and reach. Disc brakes would remove this as a concern and also concerns about brake performance in adverse conditions and rim deterioration. There're also arguments around rotational weight, ie, though the wheel is heavier, the rims are lighter as they don't need a braking surface. American Classic have a 29er (700c mtb/cyclocross) wheelset using the Notubes Alpha 340 rim for disc brakes that weigh in at 1.367kg total. At these sorts of numbers the addition of disc calipers and rotors is well offset. You could even argue that things like carbon rims become more feasible for everyday use as there won't be the damage to the rim via braking. Doing some rough calcs:-

mechanical road discs - 700g for the BB7 calipers, rotors and bolts, allow 400g for frame fittings heavier fork etc and 100g for the extra cable, gives a total of 1.2kg or 2.64lbs in weight. Offset against this would be what's being removed, say 400g for a rim brake set inc pads. That brings the difference down to 800g or 1.76lbs before you start looking at weight savings that could be made on rims. Plus these estimates are based on pretty high end road stuff rather than the more run of the mill offerings. I'm also sure that manufacturers would start looking at ways of reducing disc brake weights as well.

So, without spending silly amounts of money, I can see a disc brake roadbike being feasible with no more than a 1lb weight penalty over a non disc version, and that's just on current technology. Cleaner rims, longer lasting pads, better all weather braking, easier clearance for guards and bigger tyres, more tolerance if slightly out of true, what's not to like? You could even ride your nice bike in cruddier weather with guards and a bigger wheelset and then whack in the lightweight carbon fun wheels for serious stuff.


----------



## GrumpyGregry (13 Jul 2010)

lightweight carbon forks and discs.... Hmmm, there is a whole stack of stress factors the engineers need to get just right to prevent catastrophic failure and my face on the tarmac. As a clydesdale I think I'd want to wait until the second- or third-generation of lightweight rigid carbon disc forks came on the market.

My cynicism sometimes make me imagine things but.... didn't last year's Genesis Croix de Fer have carbon forks whereas this year's has steel? I wonder why? Of course it could simply be cost and trying to hit a specific price point but.....


----------



## MacB (13 Jul 2010)

GregCollins said:


> lightweight carbon forks and discs.... Hmmm, there is a whole stack of stress factors the engineers need to get just right to prevent catastrophic failure and my face on the tarmac. As a clydesdale I think I'd want to wait until the second- or third-generation of lightweight rigid carbon disc forks came on the market.
> 
> My cynicism sometimes make me imagine things but.... didn't last year's Genesis Croix de Fer have carbon forks whereas this year's has steel? I wonder why? Of course it could simply be cost and trying to hit a specific price point but.....



Fair enough add another 300g and you get a steel fork like the Civia or the Surly 1x1, my original premise still remains that you could go full mechanical disc brake for a much smaller weight penalty than the current OTP offerings would suggest.


----------



## HJ (13 Jul 2010)

GregCollins said:


> lightweight carbon forks and discs.... Hmmm, there is a whole stack of stress factors the engineers need to get just right to prevent catastrophic failure and my face on the tarmac. As a clydesdale I think I'd want to wait until the second- or third-generation of lightweight rigid carbon disc forks came on the market.
> 
> My cynicism sometimes make me imagine things but.... didn't last year's Genesis Croix de Fer have carbon forks whereas this year's has steel? I wonder why? Of course *it could simply be cost and trying to hit a specific price point* but.....



Trying to hit a specific price point would also explain the change from 105 to Tiagra...

If you are really worried about the strength of lightweight carbon fibre make sure you only ever fly in aeroplanes with steel wings, as you just can't trust these modern ones with carbon fibre wing struts...


----------



## HJ (13 Jul 2010)

I have just estimated the final weight of my Genesis Croix de Fer rebuild project and it works out at 9.8Kg (21.6 lbs), and I haven't even tried to source the lightest components, so it must be possible to shave weight off that. 

Of course I haven't actually built the bike yet, so only time will tell if my estimate is right 

Oh and by the way the carbon fork on the 2009 Croix de Fer is 617g...


----------



## MacB (13 Jul 2010)

HJ said:


> I have just estimated the final weight of my Genesis Croix de Fer rebuild project and it works out at 9.8Kg (21.6 lbs), and I haven't even tried to source the lightest components, so it must be possible to shave weight off that.
> 
> Of course I haven't actually built the bike yet, so only time will tell if my estimate is right
> 
> Oh and by the way the carbon fork on the 2009 Croix de Fer is 617g...




do you know the CdF frameweight HJ?


----------



## HJ (13 Jul 2010)

Ah, now that is one of the uncertainties, the kitchen scales don't go over 2Kg and the bathroom scales don't weight under 5Kg, but I think it is about 2.2Kg ± 200g


----------



## MacB (14 Jul 2010)

Some more 'interesting' stuff having gotten a few replies back from various websites and manufacturers:-

The Notubes Alpha 340 road rim - claimed at a weight of 340g, hence the name, real world weights seem to be in the 350-360g range based on postings from Weightweenies. Notubes have verified to me that this rim can be run with tubeless, clincher tyres with sealant rather than inner tubes and standard inner tubes and clinchers. Erto is 622-17 and they rate the rim for 700x21 to 700x52 tyres, the rim does have a brake track as well. Drillings are generally available in 28h and 32h, there are 24 and 18 around as well but I believe they're only available as a complete wheelset. It comes in at around 1275g for the lightest, 1322g for the medium and 1367g for the heavier wheelset, including skewers. But they do use the American Classic hubs and I've read quite a few negatives around their customer service and quality control. I think I'd rather sacrifice a few grams and go with something like Shimano XTR hubs. I do like the look of 'boutique' style ones from hope, Chris King, Royce, Phil Woods etc, but they all seem to be noisy when freewheeling.

So a wheelset using these in 32h and XTR disc hubs would be 1600g including skewers, add in rim tape, tyres(700x32), inner tubes and cassette and you've got 2900g.
Then 1100g for steel forks, 700g for the BB7 brakes including rotors and fitting bolts and 300g for brake/gear cables gets you to a total of 5000g so far.
Then allow 2160g for handlebars with STIs and crosstop levers, padding, bar tape, stem, spacers, headset, seatpost and clamp, saddle, bottle cages and front and rear deraillers, this takes you to a 7160g total.
Allow a further 1400g for chain, chainset, BB and pedals takes you to 8560g or 17.72lbs and all you've got to add on is the frame. Now a solid CroMo frame comes in at around 5lbs in weight, for a reasonable price you can get a steel or titanium frame weighing in around 1500g.

So that's it, all in weight of about 10kg or 22lbs and you'd have a pricetag of about £1600 plus the frame, so anything from £1750 to £3000+ depending on the frame you want. Spend towards the upper end and I reckon you could shave in at about 9kg but you'd struggle to get much below that without going carbon on frame and forks.


----------



## HJ (14 Jul 2010)

I went for Shimano XT hubs which I expect to be around 820g (with skewers) the pair, will weight them when they arrive, then I was going to use Mavic Open Pro rims (OK so I am more road oriented) 870g the pair, spokes (64) 257g (tbc), 220g for the cassette, then looking at 640g (on road) to 900g (off road) for tyres, rim tape 45g, and tubes about 240g, which gives a wheel set of about 3Kg.


----------



## MacB (15 Jul 2010)

HJ said:


> I went for Shimano XT hubs which I expect to be around 820g (with skewers) the pair, will weight them when they arrive, then I was going to use Mavic Open Pro rims (OK so I am more road oriented) 870g the pair, spokes (64) 257g (tbc), 220g for the cassette, then looking at 640g (on road) to 900g (off road) for tyres, rim tape 45g, and tubes about 240g, which gives a wheel set of about 3Kg.



Interesting, I may be out on spokes, I was using:-

XTR hubs with skewers - 535g
Alpha 340 Rims - should be 680g but I allowed 720g
Spokes and Nipples - I've allowed for 64 at a total of 400g
Rim tape - as per yours 45g
Cassette - I'd allowed 250g
Tyres - I was going with 700x32 at 700g the pair
Tubes - allowing 250g

That gets me the 2.9kg, Open Pro rims would add another 150g but they're only rated up to 28mm tyres, I know you can run bigger but that's from the Mavic site. Whereas they do rate the Open Sport rims up to 700x32, which would be a weight penalty over the OPs of a further 110g. I am tempted by the Open Sports as they are fairly tried and tested whereas the Alpha 340s are only just out. Plus I can get them for £45 the pair as opposed to £165 for a pair of the Alphas, a full £120 off the wheelset price.


----------



## GrumpyGregry (15 Jul 2010)

HJ said:


> Trying to hit a specific price point would also explain the change from 105 to Tiagra. If you are really worried about the strength of lightweight carbon fibre make sure you only ever fly in aeroplanes with steel wings, as you just can't trust these modern ones with carbon fibre wing struts... ''



agree about the price point stuff btw though that isn't what they told me when I spoke to them about buying a frame and fork.....

but do you really think bike/fork makers spend the same amount of time doing structural stress analysis as aerospace manufacturers? I don't ;-) (Having broken a couple of Trek carbon mtb frames back in the day I know they don't)

1st generation rigid carbon disc road forks will be slapped together from rim brake designs with a bit of rule of thumb reinforcement here and there "hoping" it will do the job. Rather you than me.


----------



## HJ (15 Jul 2010)

MacB said:


> Interesting, I may be out on spokes, I was using:-
> 
> XTR hubs with skewers - 535g
> Alpha 340 Rims - should be 680g but I allowed 720g
> ...



The Open Pro can take 19mm to 32mm tyres safely, as I say I am mostly looking at road use, but I have started thinking about using a Alex Crostini T1.1 rim which can take 25mm to 40mm tyres safely with only a 45g (each) increase in weight. I have got a price of the Alex rims yet and that maybe the determining factor.


----------



## P.H (17 Jul 2010)

How many bikes are you building  

I don't think you'll have a problem building to that weight, if you're prepared to spend enough and loose a little durability.  I'd go the other way, build for purpose and accept that's the weight it is.  



Jezston said:


> Currently looking custom build myself with cantis or vees on the rear and disc (or even hub?!?) at the front, but options do look VERY limited.



I like this idea, but can't see why the choice is limited.  I'd have thought if you're going to add just a disk fork you could use just about any frame.


I nearly went for a front disk on my new project, in the end I decided for me the cons outweighed the pros, though this was partly influenced by already having a hub dynamo.  Instead I went for Rigida Carbide rims and good cantis which I have and like on another bike.  These have some of the benefits of disks, decent all weather breaking, long lasting rims, clean, with the advantage of simple brakes and less no weight penalty.  They don't have the outright stopping power of good disks, then that's not something I've ever missed on the road.


----------



## HJ (17 Jul 2010)

MacB said:


> do you know the CdF frameweight HJ?



I decided that Mrs HJ need some new kitchen scales and now has one that go up to 5Kg. So I now know that the CdF frame weighs 2.225Kg...


----------



## MacB (17 Jul 2010)

HJ said:


> I decided that Mrs HJ need some new kitchen scales and now has one that go up to 5Kg. So I now know that the CdF frame weighs 2.225Kg...



aha, is that frame only or frame and forks?

I spoke to IF Bikes about getting a disc brake road frame done and no problem, geometry wise it would be close to their Crown Jewel model and clearances similar to their Planet Cross. They recommended staying with 135mm dropouts to give the range in rear disc hubs. They also recommended staying with steel forks, they custom make their own, rather than trying for a carbon disc fork. If I go titanium then the f&f's would be about 2.2kg, steel would be closer to the 2.5kg mark. 

These were guestimates but, as it'll be a largish frame, they shouldn't be too far out.


----------



## HJ (17 Jul 2010)

That is the frame only (it's Reynolds 520 butted Cr-Mo), the 09 carbon forks add 617g, so that 2.8Kg all up.


----------



## MacB (17 Jul 2010)

HJ said:


> That is the frame only (it's Reynolds 520 butted Cr-Mo), the 09 carbon forks add 617g, so that 2.8Kg all up.



seems reasonable, that's about the same weight as my XCheck frame, though the disc forks in steel come at 1.1kg so I'd guess something similar for the 2010 CdF. So the IF Ti option, with steel forks, at about 2.2kg is pretty good. This could be dropped down by about 300g if I switched to a carbon disc fork at some point in the future.

Are the disc forks on yours branded in any way?


----------



## HJ (17 Jul 2010)

No branding, I assume it is just something Genesis had made for them selves, it is notable that it is disc only. The nearest thing I have seen to it is the Kinesis DC19 which weights in at 680g.


----------



## simon62w (18 Jul 2010)

I don't know if this helps but in latest edition of Cycling Plus mag they review 2 bikes with discs..A steelie from Salsa and a alu from Trek called Portland which I think has carbon forks..Both about £1200, but it could give you some idea's about sourcing parts
simon


----------



## Norm (18 Jul 2010)

simon62w said:


> I don't know if this helps but in latest edition of Cycling Plus mag they review 2 bikes with discs..A steelie from Salsa and a alu from Trek called Portland which I think has carbon forks.


Isn't that Cycling Active rather than C+? Or have they both got the same two bikes to review this month?


----------



## HJ (18 Jul 2010)

MacB said:


> seems reasonable, that's about the same weight as my XCheck frame, though the disc forks in steel come at 1.1kg so I'd guess something similar for the 2010 CdF. So the IF Ti option, with steel forks, at about 2.2kg is pretty good. This could be dropped down by about 300g if I switched to a carbon disc fork at some point in the future.
> 
> Are the disc forks on yours branded in any way?



I noticed when I was out on the ride today, that Scook 94 (of this forum) has built a Ti road bike using the wheels and brakes from the CdF (he then gave me the frame). He had planned to just the fork as well but there was some problem with the head tube on the Ti frame and so he used a Kinesis DC19 instead. He is really pleased with the bike.


----------



## MacB (18 Jul 2010)

HJ said:


> I noticed when I was out on the ride today, that Scook 94 (of this forum) has built a Ti road bike using the wheels and brakes from the CdF (he then gave me the frame). He had planned to just the fork as well but there was some problem with the head tube on the Ti frame and so he used a Kinesis DC19 instead. He is really pleased with the bike.



My word, how did I miss that, not only do I not need to look very far, it was right under my bloddy nose. Have posted on Scooks thread and also sent him a PM re more detail. I have had a couple of chats with Justin Burls about a frame anyway.


----------



## MacB (18 Jul 2010)

simon62w said:


> I don't know if this helps but in latest edition of Cycling Plus mag they review 2 bikes with discs..A steelie from Salsa and a alu from Trek called Portland which I think has carbon forks..Both about £1200, but it could give you some idea's about sourcing parts
> simon



I saw the Trek Portland but was a bit put off by the drop in spec for this years model and the fact that it's brown, not a colour I could bring myself to spend £1200 pounds on!


----------



## MacB (19 Jul 2010)

Hmmm, another one to throw in the mix is the Kinesis Decade Tripster:-

http://kinesisdecade.co.uk/product.php?id=1

can only find as frameset RRP of £500 but going for £450 several places and apparently there's been the odd offer on at £350. You get alu frame with rack and guard mounts and the rear disc mounts are inboard, comes with Kinesis DC19 carbon cross disc fork, headset, seatpost and clamp, reckon F&F will be about 2.4kg for a large size. Basically a tweaked crosslight frame as far as I can see, bigger head tube and more road/commuting orientated. 

All seems ideal except for the integrated headset, that makes me wary.


----------



## gaz (21 Jul 2010)

What about the 2011 Genesis Day one?









> Biggest news for next year's range is that Genesis have bitten the bullet and gone ahead with making the Alfine-equipped Day One, a bike we saw in concept at the February show. So what we have here is a hub-geared, drop-barred cyclocross iron with a Reynolds 520 frame. The Day One uses the Versa 8-speed integrated lever to shift the hub – it has a bit of a Sora-esque long sweep but it works – and Tektro Lyra mechanical disc brakes to do the stopping, which James at Genesis reckons are just as good as the Shimano ones even though they're a bit cheaper.
> 
> There's plenty of attention to detail too: note the lengthened rack mount braze-ons which give you a bit more clearance on the disc, and also a bit more thread to hold the bolt if you still need to space it out with a couple of washers. Best of all, Genesis have managed to spec the bike so that it sneaks under the £1000 Cyclescheme limit by a quid, so if your ride to work includes a bit of singletrack and some hurdles then this might be the bike for you. Or you could ride it on the road. Anyway we've scrawled our name at the top of the list for testing, so as soon as we've had a go we'll let you know whether hub-geared cyclocross is the future.




Source: http://road.cc/content/news/20605-genesis-unveil-2011-bikes-icebike


----------



## Norm (21 Jul 2010)

gaz said:


> What about the 2011 Genesis Day one?


I think I just did a little wee!  That's nice, that is.


----------



## gaz (22 Jul 2010)

If they do it in orange, then i might just have to get that. Orangeness


----------



## MacB (22 Jul 2010)

that does look good and the integrated shifter for the hub gear is a big benefit.


----------



## GrumpyGregry (22 Jul 2010)

gaz said:


> What about the 2011 Genesis Day one?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



that's EXACTLY the bike I wanted 2 years ago and no one made one. I love the line that the Tektro discs are as good as Shimano discs though. So that's not very good at all then. Great benchmark. Not.

All it needs is a carbon disc fork suitable for use by a clumsy clydesdale like me, BB7's, a Brooks saddle, a Tubus Fly rack and some mudguards and it would be perfecto. Oh yeah; and pedals, and a black stem and to match the bars.


----------



## Jezston (22 Jul 2010)

Oh God ... tissues please!

Shame about the colour, though. A more 'classic' look and I'd have been all over it.


----------



## jack the lad (22 Jul 2010)

...or what about this one http://www.on-one.co.uk/i/q/FROOPOMPET/on-one-pompetamine-frame
the rear disc mounts are inboard so don't interfere with racks/mudguards.

No idea of the weight, but well proportioned frame looks fabulous and the price is right.


----------



## MacB (22 Jul 2010)

Question I'd have re the On-One and the Genesis is the caliper position when adjusting chain tension, I assume the caliper would need to be adjusted as well? Quite a few frames use sliding dropouts now where the disc brake caliper fits on to the dropout, hence the relationship of caliper to axle remains constant as the wheel is moved for chain tension.

If they want it truly versatile then throw in gear cable braze ons, mech hanger and sliding dropouts. Then you have a frame that can run hub gear, SS, fixed or gears.

I don't know how secure, long term, sliding dropouts are but there does seem to be quite a few out there now.


----------



## P.H (22 Jul 2010)

If we're onto Hub geared drop bar bikes, the Civa Bryant gets my vote;

http://civiacycles.com/bikes/bryant/

Though I can't imagine why anyone would buy an 8 speed Alfine when the improved 11 speed is almost available. 

Unless of course they're trying to squeeze it under the C2W limit.




Another frame builder worth looking at for inspiration is Velotraum (Dream bike in English)


http://velotraum.de/


----------



## P.H (22 Jul 2010)

MacB said:


> I don't know how secure, long term, sliding dropouts are but there does seem to be quite a few out there now.






Secure in what way?


There's four bolts holding one axle, I don't understand the doubt.  Unless you meant something else.


----------



## MacB (22 Jul 2010)

PH - I'd read some negative posts about sliding dropouts becoming loose over time, though there seems to be a lot of praise for the ones made by Paragon. I'm pro the idea, nothing but vertical dropouts for frames. You could even switch out dropouts, so no mech hanger when running fixed/SS/Hub gears.

I do like the Civia, you'll even find some comments/questions from me under the Ecovelo review of it. The only thing I'm not sure of is the caliper fitting on the dropouts. I understand why they've done it re rack and guard mounts. But it's not quite as straight forward as if the caliper mounted to the drops themselves. This is more track ends with a sliding caliper mount thatn sliding dropouts. These are what I mean by sliding dropouts:-

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_VY9lef3Ri...Y/jJTO_dyBttI/s400/ParagonSlidingDropouts.jpg

I think the £1k limit has become a bit of a thing, there's a few models where specs are falling to hit that point. Though you can already buy the Alfine 11 I haven't seen anything on integrated shifting for it. As far as I know the only integrated road shifter, for hub gears, is the one for the Alfine 8.

Thanks for the link to Velotraum, hadn't seen them before, will have a peruse.


----------



## MacB (4 Aug 2010)

Just perusing the Boardman range and some of the hybrids are pretty close:-

http://www.boardmanbikes.com/hybrid/hybrid_proltd.html

The Pro Ltd and Pro both have carbon disc forks, all are flatbars though and the geometry is flat bar orientated, ie longer effective TT's. But, barring that, it's getting closer:-

clearance for tyres up to about 700x37, can take rack and guards, most are hydraulic discs due to flatbars but could take mechanical discs to work with road levers. 

Gearing seems a bit odd for a hybrid/city bike though, 50/36 and 11-32 cassette. I suppose they're trying to cover the range of a triple but 50x11 is a pretty big top gear for this sort of riding, 123 inches. As they use SRAM stuff maybe they should have gone with the SRAM 30/45 compact and still the 11-32 cassette. That gives pretty good gearing for general use.


----------



## g00se (5 Aug 2010)

How about one of these?

Sorry - just read you wanted a compact chainset and BB7s - not BB5s


----------



## HJ (11 Sep 2010)

The important thing to remember, as discovered recently, if you are buying Avid BB5 or BB7 disc brakes to use with STi make sure you buy the Road version, the MTB version don't work with STi's! Anyone want to buy a pair of Avid BB7 disc brakes, new and unused....


----------



## MacB (12 Sep 2010)

HJ said:


> The important thing to remember, as discovered recently, if you are buying Avid BB5 or BB7 disc brakes to use with STi make sure you buy the Road version, the MTB version don't work with STi's! Anyone want to buy a pair of Avid BB7 disc brakes, new and unused....



Loving the write up, good to see that it's not just me that blesses the cyling community with cheap/free parts due to my cock ups.


----------



## MacB (10 Dec 2010)

Here's a couple of disc brake road bikes at sub 17, and sub 16, pounds from Volagi:-

http://volagi.com/bikes

not quite my cup of tea but getting closer


----------



## anyuser (10 Dec 2010)

Interesting that bike manufacturers seem to be sourcing 130mm OLD rear disk hubs now. I wonder who is making them?


----------



## PpPete (10 Dec 2010)

MacB said:


> Here's a couple of disc brake road bikes at sub 17, and sub 16, pounds from Volagi:-
> 
> http://volagi.com/bikes
> 
> not quite my cup of tea but getting closer




pricy - but very nice


----------



## MacB (10 Dec 2010)

anyuser said:


> Interesting that bike manufacturers seem to be sourcing 130mm OLD rear disk hubs now. I wonder who is making them?



I think Royce do one and so do Phil Woods, both in the £££ range, the only others I've seen are American Classics and I've read mention on others that are apparently just ACs rebranded. But I also read a lot of negatives around bearings and build quality for the AC hubs.


----------



## anyuser (10 Dec 2010)

I also believe Velocity do one and my Whyte R7 has a Whyte branded one so I assume it is sourced from the Far East somewhere.


----------



## Wobblers (10 Dec 2010)

MacB said:


> Here's a couple of disc brake road bikes at sub 17, and sub 16, pounds from Volagi:-
> 
> http://volagi.com/bikes
> 
> not quite my cup of tea but getting closer



I'm going to be a philistine here and say they need to have mudguards and rack... Oh, and an Alfine 11 hub....


----------



## threebikesmcginty (10 Dec 2010)

McWobble said:


> I'm going to be a philistine here and say they need to have mudguards and rack... Oh, and an Alfine 11 8 hub....



And orange. Complete agreement!


----------



## MacB (10 Dec 2010)

McWobble said:


> I'm going to be a philistine here and say they need to have mudguards and rack... Oh, and an Alfine 11 hub....



Yep, as I say, not quite my cup of tea, but it's nice to see some progress. To be honest I've always envisaged 3 bikes, commuter, allrounder/shopping bike and a nice weekend bike. This is getting really close to the weekend bike requirements, in fact I may be going towards the idea of vertical dropouts and a chain tensioner for hub gears anyway. My experience with the Pompetamine, track ends, mud guards and disc brakes is not as satisfying as I'd like. Rear wheel removal and installation is more of a faff than I like, and I've only done it in practice in the garage. Even with M+ tyres I fear a visitation when out and about. I could mess about with chaintugs etc but it's all very far from the simplicity of vertical dropouts, I also prefer the horizontal dropouts of my Surly. I've looked at the eccentric BB options and I don't like the alteration to ride position that entails. I've also looked at the sliding dropouts whereby the dropouts themselves are vertical but the whole dropout is bolted into a sliding option, looks like a closed trackend. But it's expensive and you still have the possibility of slippage or creep.

So now I'm toying with buying a Genesis CdF and putting the hub gear wheelset and cockpit onto that frame and using a surly singulator, in push up mode, for chain tension. That would then leave me with a 9 speed drivetrain, wheelset and controls to put onto a custom ti frame I have my eye on.

Ideally I'd just buy a CdF frame and forks but they aren't sold seperately and I've not managed to find a 60cm one for sale yet, though I'm keeping my eye out.


----------



## P.H (10 Dec 2010)

MacB said:


> I've looked at the eccentric BB options and I don't like the alteration to ride position that entails.



I've heard this several times, but never from anyone who has ridden this system for any length of time.  It's a 6mm radius, I have combinations of shoes and shorts with more variation.


----------



## MacB (10 Dec 2010)

P.H said:


> I've heard this several times, but never from anyone who has ridden this system for any length of time. It's a 6mm radius, I have combinations of shoes and shorts with more variation.



Is a fair point, I probably lacked a bit of clarity there, if that was the only negative then I'd probably give an EBB a go. To be honest I've read a vast amount of threads on the net about the options and you'll find strong support for every method. My LBS says why sod about? either horizontal dropouts or vertical and whack on an old derailler, they aren't fans of track ends...as I've discovered  Then there's the fact my head can be easily turned....Vin Cox set the new round the world cycling record on a Genesis CdF, with Alfine 8 speed hub gear and used a push up style tensioner(looks like a Surly one but I'm not sure, certainly similar design), so that's 18k miles without a problem. 

http://www.roadcyclinguk.com/gear-news/cycle-show-vin-coxs-genesis-croix-de-fer/5671.html

This is what started me re-examining:-

Sliding vertical dropouts - Paragon Machineworks seem to get the best write ups, certainly most of the slippage complaints seem to be around other brands of sliders. But it's expensive and needs a frame built specifically and the dropouts themselves work out heavier.

EBB - read a lot of issues around ones that work on standard BB shells(like the Excentricker), slippage, fitting problems etc, as per the Paragon it does seem that if you do it right, and spend more(ie Bushnell) then the problems are less of an issue. But my reading has indicated a preference for the sliders option and, most importantly, from those that have bikes equipped in both ways. Again the EBB adds a bit of weight and you're talking a specific frame again.

Track Ends/Horizontal Dropouts - I currently have both of these and definitely prefer the horizontals for ease of use, but both add their own complexity when married with disc brakes. Sadly my horizontal dropout frame hasn't got disc brake tabs but has got a derailler hanger and it's vice versa for the track end frame. Though these are the lightest options, no additional weight.

Vertical dropouts and chain tensioning device - I've kicked this idea around several times but had always been thinking along the lines of a derailler style action rather than push up tension from one wheel. I was also always trying to ensure a bike could peform all the functions, ie fixed, SS, hub gear and derailler. Then I realised that, if I took fixed out of the equation, everything else would fit together more neatly. In fact I could save myself a fortune in special frames if I was happy to go with a chain tensioner. The Surly one weighs about 120g, offset that against the weight penalty for sliders or EBB and it's bugger all. Also my main interest is running hub gears and they're not as sensitive to chain tension as a fixed and nor, some claim, as a SS, though I'm not sure on that last one. I've also got the option to mess about with magic gears and halflinks as well. Possibly the most important aspect is that a chain tensioner of this sort wouldn't bother me aesthetically, in fact I'd probably forget about it very quickly. 

So, after all this musing and muttering to myself I was aware that I still had my plans around a new weekend bike in titanium with carbon disc forks. It struck me that the spec of the CdF was pretty much what I'd been looking at for the ti bike. Plus I prefer the looks of the CdF to the Pompetamine and buying a complete bike would get me all those bits cheaper than buying seperately.

There you go PH, now feel free to shoot me full of holes and set me trawling the net again


----------



## GrumpyGregry (10 Dec 2010)

MacB said:


> So now I'm toying with buying a Genesis CdF and putting the hub gear wheelset and cockpit onto that frame and using a surly singulator, in push up mode, for chain tension. That would then leave me with a 9 speed drivetrain, wheelset and controls to put onto a custom ti frame I have my eye on.
> 
> Ideally I'd just buy a CdF frame and forks but they aren't sold seperately and I've not managed to find a 60cm one for sale yet, though I'm keeping my eye out.



ask Genesis direct. Early this year they indicated they might have some CdF frames available. My beer token's have been used elsewhere or I've be in the queue in front of you!


----------



## P.H (10 Dec 2010)

MacB said:


> There you go PH, now feel free to shoot me full of holes and set me trawling the net again


Ha, no shooting from me, I agonise over these decisions myself, then get impatient and toss a coin, I doubt it makes much difference, as I'm sure I've said before.  I just think it unwise to discount any option until trying it for yourself.  Mercian and Bob Jacksons use sliding drop outs and quote the reason you gave, when you push them they admit they can buy those off the shelf but would need to get non sliding Rohloff dropouts custom made.  I've run hub gears with a tensioner and am likely to do so again on a folder.  I recently had a custom frame made and chose a clamp type EBB, it's so simple.  If I could have found a stock frame that offered everything else I wanted, I'd have used a tensioner, though the double pulley type like an Alfine or Rohloff.  The tensioner on Vin Cox's bike doesn't seem to be taking up much of the slack, which shows it's not as critical as some may think,  Mark Beaumont's RTW bike also used a chain tensioner.  If going custom there is another option, half size EBB, Phil Wood makes these, they do what they say, offer half a link of adjustment, they are used by Singular on their lovely Ti frame;

http://www.flickr.co...n/photostream/ 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/singularcycles/4079460347/in/photostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/singularcycles/4560027453/


----------



## MacB (11 Dec 2010)

GregCollins said:


> ask Genesis direct. Early this year they indicated they might have some CdF frames available. My beer token's have been used elsewhere or I've be in the queue in front of you!



interesting Greg, I had spoken to them on the phone but only about the Day1 frameset, I might give them a try re the CdF. Though I expect we'll start seeing a lot more in the way of 700c disc ready frames in the future.


----------



## potsy (11 Dec 2010)

Do you ever get chance to ride these bikes Mac? By the time you perfect your dream machines you'll be too old to ride 'em






I still really fancy a Croix de fer, was disappointed the 2011 Tri-cross didn't go with disc brakes or I might have been tempted.


----------



## Norm (11 Dec 2010)

potsy said:


> ... was disappointed the 2011 Tri-cross didn't go with disc brakes or I might have been tempted.


Funnily enough, I was extremely glad that it didn't have discs, for exactly the same reason.


----------



## MacB (11 Dec 2010)

P.H said:


> Ha, no shooting from me, I agonise over these decisions myself, then get impatient and toss a coin, I doubt it makes much difference, as I'm sure I've said before. I just think it unwise to discount any option until trying it for yourself. Mercian and Bob Jacksons use sliding drop outs and quote the reason you gave, when you push them they admit they can buy those off the shelf but would need to get non sliding Rohloff dropouts custom made. I've run hub gears with a tensioner and am likely to do so again on a folder. I recently had a custom frame made and chose a clamp type EBB, it's so simple. If I could have found a stock frame that offered everything else I wanted, I'd have used a tensioner, though the double pulley type like an Alfine or Rohloff. The tensioner on Vin Cox's bike doesn't seem to be taking up much of the slack, which shows it's not as critical as some may think, Mark Beaumont's RTW bike also used a chain tensioner. If going custom there is another option, half size EBB, Phil Wood makes these, they do what they say, offer half a link of adjustment, they are used by Singular on their lovely Ti frame;
> 
> http://www.flickr.co...n/photostream/
> 
> ...



cheers PH good info there, I'm not sure on the pic of the Vin Cox bike, that was taken as it was displayed at a bike show after the trip. The chain does look a little slack to me and I'd be surprised if he rode it that slack all the time. I've also read of people running hub gears with no tensioning device at all, just careful magic gear selection, non ramped cog/ring and decent chain catching device. Singular were one of the makers I'd looked at, the Peregrine in particular, I also like the look of Fixie Incs Pureblood(though worry that the big kid in me just thinks Pureblood is a cool name). I did lust after some very high end custom frames like Serotta or IF but decided that it was too much for a bike that would only get use at weekends and in good weather. So I'm now looking at something like a Burls custom frame or VN Amazon, the Amazon originally tempted me due to the 132.5mm rear spacing, same as my Surly, allowing for use of 130 or 135 rear hubs. But I've now been told by 3 frame builders that they wouldn't recommend 132.5 spacing as it means the dropouts are under constant pressure. Then you think to yourself, well why would major frame manufacturers spec 132.5 if it caused problems, then I get confused and just stop thinking about it for a while. Plus the amazon has canti mounts as well and would their presence bug me.

My practical soul will mean that I'll finalise the run around bike and the commuter before I 'flip the coin' on the weekend frame. But the temptation for the complete CdF is growing, by my calcs this would save me about £300 against buying the parts for the ti frameset.


----------



## P.H (11 Dec 2010)

MacB said:


> So I'm now looking at something like a Burls custom frame or VN Amazon, the Amazon originally tempted me due to the 132.5mm rear spacing, same as my Surly, allowing for use of 130 or 135 rear hubs. But I've now been told by 3 frame builders that they wouldn't recommend 132.5 spacing as it means the dropouts are under constant pressure.



These have been around for years, did they give you one scrap of evidence of anyone who had ever had a problem with this system?  Did you ask them if they could set their jig to make it and how much trouble that would be, ha!


----------



## MacB (12 Dec 2010)

P.H said:


> These have been around for years, did they give you one scrap of evidence of anyone who had ever had a problem with this system? Did you ask them if they could set their jig to make it and how much trouble that would be, ha!



Frustrating isn't it  I think I'll go with my gut, and the convenience of being able to run road or MTB hubs, and accept that 132.5 is ok, I just can't believe sizeable manufacturers would have had this standard for so long if it caused problems. As I said my Surly Crosscheck frame is set up like this and it seems a pretty popular frameset. The VN Amazon frame is very tempting, coupled with a Kinesis DC19 carbon disc fork for about £1k all in from Fatbirds. But I still have questions around my plans and getting some info seems rather difficult, despite the wonder of the web. I have questions awating response from Genesis and Van Nicholas, but if anyone knows:-

VN Amazon frame - running it with disc brakes - I've only found one report on this on a thread on the CTC forum from a couple of years ago. The guy indicated that he had set it up but the 160mm rotor caught on the stays and he had to respace the axle to make room. Anyone know if VN addressed this, if it is an issue or if you could maybe run a 140mm rotor to solve it? It seems strange that a frame designed to accomodate disc brakes would have such a problem.

Genesis CdF dropouts - if I want to run the I-9 hub the manual indicates vertical dropouts need to be a minimum of 19mm, measured vertically, where the axle slots in. HJ, on here, kindly measured his CdF and reckons they are 15mm at this point. This puts a bit of a damper on my plans but I did always intend an Alfine hub for this bike eventually(shifter preferences). So Vin Cox ran an Alfine 8 on his CdF with a chain tensioner but did he have to modify the dropouts at all? I suppose it's all about rights and book deals these days, coz I can't seem to find detail specs, or close up images, of his round the world bike.

If anyone happens to know any of this would appreciate any feedback...cheers....Al


----------



## GrumpyGregry (12 Dec 2010)

back in October Genesis were saying they would get pics and details of Vin Cox's mods and would post them online. But then it's gone quiet. Perhaps if a couple of us post on their blog it might stimulate them into action. If they could build a Alfine 11 speed CdF for £1000 they are guaranteed at least one sale.

My guess is they will make one if, big if, they can get it down to the btw price point and if Alfine 11's become slightly less rare than hens teeth.


----------



## PapaZita (12 Dec 2010)

MacB said:


> VN Amazon frame - running it with disc brakes - I've only found one report on this on a thread on the CTC forum from a couple of years ago. The guy indicated that he had set it up but the 160mm rotor caught on the stays and he had to respace the axle to make room. Anyone know if VN addressed this, if it is an issue or if you could maybe run a 140mm rotor to solve it? It seems strange that a frame designed to accomodate disc brakes would have such a problem.



That was probably me. Respacing the axle _was_ a bit of a bodge. As you suggest, a 140mm disc did the trick, and still gives more than ample braking. I never did mention it to VN. It would be interesting to know if they have tweaked anything in this area, as they do seem to update their designs occasionally.

Anyway, I still ride the Amazon and think its great, mainly because it's so versatile. I have it set up for easy switching between a variety of cross, winter road, and touring duties, and it copes with it all. The disc brakes are BB7 road with STI levers, which are OK. I must admit that I still haven't got the hang of getting them adjusted just right. They're never bad, but once or twice I've hit on a perfect adjustment after which they're fantastic. The problem is that I can never seem to reproduce that, so most of the time I'm using these brakes which I know aren't quite as good as they should be...

PZ.


----------



## MacB (12 Dec 2010)

PapaZita said:


> That was probably me. Respacing the axle _was_ a bit of a bodge. As you suggest, a 140mm disc did the trick, and still gives more than ample braking. I never did mention it to VN. It would be interesting to know if they have tweaked anything in this area, as they do seem to update their designs occasionally.
> 
> Anyway, I still ride the Amazon and think its great, mainly because it's so versatile. I have it set up for easy switching between a variety of cross, winter road, and touring duties, and it copes with it all. The disc brakes are BB7 road with STI levers, which are OK. I must admit that I still haven't got the hang of getting them adjusted just right. They're never bad, but once or twice I've hit on a perfect adjustment after which they're fantastic. The problem is that I can never seem to reproduce that, so most of the time I'm using these brakes which I know aren't quite as good as they should be...
> 
> PZ.



PZ, thanks, great info there, if I remember rightly you were also considering using different brake cable outer as you were worried about compression loss. Did you do this and if so how did that work?

I used Goddridge outers on my Pompetamine build, with the BB7's, and it's one of the things that's really done exactly what I expected. There seems to be no compression loss whatsoever, any touch on main, or secondary, brake levers is immediately mirrored by caliper movement. These are both full outer cable runs, is it the same with your Amazon?

The Amazon is still well in the running for the derailler weekend disc brake bike, but the CdF is now facing competition from the Singular Peregrine frameset.


----------



## PpPete (12 Dec 2010)

MacB said:


> Frustrating isn't it  I think I'll go with my gut, and the convenience of being able to run road or MTB hubs, and accept that 132.5 is ok, I just can't believe sizeable manufacturers would have had this standard for so long if it caused problems. As I said my Surly Crosscheck frame is set up like this and it seems a pretty popular frameset. The VN Amazon frame is very tempting, coupled with a Kinesis DC19 carbon disc fork for about £1k all in from Fatbirds. But I still have questions around my plans and getting some info seems rather difficult, despite the wonder of the web. I have questions awating response from Genesis and Van Nicholas, but if anyone knows:-
> 
> 
> 
> If anyone happens to know any of this would appreciate any feedback...cheers....Al



I know a little bit about materials.... and have messed about with both "springing" steel frames to accomodate change from 126mm to 130mm - and cold-setting from 120 mm up to 135 mm (!) Involvement with Titanium tube through my work leads me to think that 132.5mm would be absolutely fine on Ti, but I'd hesitate to do so on Aluminium.


----------



## MacB (12 Dec 2010)

PpPete said:


> I know a little bit about materials.... and have messed about with both "springing" steel frames to accomodate change from 126mm to 130mm - and cold-setting from 120 mm up to 135 mm (!) Involvement with Titanium tube through my work leads me to think that 132.5mm would be absolutely fine on Ti, but I'd hesitate to do so on Aluminium.



thanks Pete, I must admit I'm not aware of any frames in Alu set up like this, my Surly is steel and the Amazon ti obviously. I keep saying to myself 1.25mm each side, it is a tiny amount. But my choices are 132.5 or 135, I wouldn't consider getting a 130 frame now.


----------



## PapaZita (12 Dec 2010)

MacB said:


> PZ, thanks, great info there, if I remember rightly you were also considering using different brake cable outer as you were worried about compression loss. Did you do this and if so how did that work?



I did put on a set of Avid Flak-Jackets, which made a small, but useful, difference. The Amazon has an exposed cable run along the top tube, and I have inline adjusters, but no secondary levers, so quite a lot of ends. Perhaps I was not sufficiently meticulous in their preparation. I've just managed to crush an outer under a lamp bracket, so maybe this is the opportunity to try again with a new set.


----------



## Wobblers (16 Dec 2010)

Planet X are supposedly bringing out a "do anything" commuter titanium framed bike next year: this is what they posted on bikeradar:



> re - titanium
> on the titanium front weve been pretty slow off the mark this year and our inventory reflects our lack of planning
> the good news is were pretty much sorted things - weve three frames coming , all made by van nicholas , off the top of me head -
> 
> ...



Planet X will be getting their frames for Van Nicholas - this spec sounds quite similar to the Amazon; I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up very similar indeed.
If this were built up with an alfine 11 hub, it would tick all the boxes for me. Assuming it actually materialises, along with the alfine 11 hub and an 11 speed version of the Versa STI's.

I probably shouldn't really be planning n+1 on rumoured vapourware, should I??


----------



## PpPete (17 Dec 2010)

McWobble said:


> I probably shouldn't really be planning n+1 on rumoured vapourware, should I??



Why ever not? That's what winter & snow is there for - innit?


----------



## HJ (17 Dec 2010)

McWobble said:


> Planet X are supposedly bringing out a "do anything" commuter titanium framed bike next year: this is what they posted on bikeradar:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Humm, I wonder if the wife would notice if I got one of those


----------



## MacB (22 Dec 2010)

well I've decided to go ahead with the custom frame from Burls, too many little niggles with the Amazon and they are the same price. Am going with the chainstay mount for the disc caliper, Papazita has been a great help in detailing his Amazon for me to allow me to decide. Even getting off his sick bed to take some piccies for me, I'll ignore the fact that he didn't clean the bike first  

Justin is doing the prelim drawings now and I'm still musing over chain tension, sliders are out as I'm firm on the chainstay mount option. So it's down to a chain tensioner or an EBB and, at the moment, the chain tensioner is winning, vertical dropouts are a must. No doubt I'll change my mind several times before the final design is committed to. But my searches have been turning up more OTP offerings:-

http://moots.com/our-bike/cross/psychlo-x/overview/

http://www.lynskeyperformance.com/a/

http://www.salsacycles.com/

But the Volagi bikes are still well ahead on the weekend bike stakes, only thing letting them down are the 130mm dropouts but I suspect that availability of 130mm disc hubs will increase rapidly.

Anyone spots any other tour/cross/road disc brake bikes please post up links.


----------



## P.H (22 Dec 2010)

Go for it 

The Burls bikes I've seen have been very nice, neat and good looking. The only criticism I have is the way the frame builder dents the chainstays for clearance. I've no doubt this is fine from an engineering point of view, it just looks so crude and there are far more elegant ways to achieve the same. I'd go for an EBB, no surprise, if you don't like it you can always set it in one spot and run a tensioner, I just like the options. There is something about the process of custom, especially if you get to have a lot of input. I'd always end up with a different bike to you, that's the point 

https://www.cyclechat.net/


----------



## MacB (28 Dec 2010)

I have ordered this frameset today:-

http://salsacycles.com/bikes/vaya/

and, though I have a spare rear derailler as backup, I've also ordered this:-

http://www.forwardcycle.com/

The Burls is still in design stage and the FC standard shell EBB will allow me to decide whether I go with sliders, oversize EBB shell or standard BB shell.

Expect to see an ad for a Pompetamine XL frame, forks, headset, seatclamp and the mudguards I've modified to fit it.


----------



## threebikesmcginty (28 Dec 2010)

MacB said:


> I have ordered this frameset today



I'll take first dibs please, Mac. Available say April-ish?


----------



## MacB (28 Dec 2010)

threebikesmcginty said:


> I'll take first dibs please, Mac. Available say April-ish?




As it's you, and if you're serious, you can have the frame and stuff as soon as the Vaya is up and running....payment can wait until you're ready


----------



## threebikesmcginty (28 Dec 2010)

Oh, I jokingly meant the Vaya - didn't think you hung on to bikes that long...


----------



## MacB (28 Dec 2010)

threebikesmcginty said:


> Oh, I jokingly meant the Vaya - didn't think you hung on to bikes that long...



See, I was in full mental fettling mode, didn't even spot the obvious joke, knowing the source of the post that's shameful on my part.

Just another reason to hate you even more than I already do  

but I'll pencil you in for the Vaya, just in case like


----------



## P.H (28 Dec 2010)

So why the change? I like Salsa's, clever design features like the stainless forward facing dropout on the fork. But are you really expecting much difference to the On One?

I'm interested to hear how that BB works out, I'm tempted long term if the Alfine 11 lives up to expectations...


----------



## MacB (29 Dec 2010)

P.H said:


> So why the change? I like Salsa's, clever design features like the stainless forward facing dropout on the fork. But are you really expecting much difference to the On One?
> 
> I'm interested to hear how that BB works out, I'm tempted long term if the Alfine 11 lives up to expectations...



Oh no complaints with how the Pomp rides, that's fine but, in case it wasn't apparent I get a bit OCD about some things. I know the droput/chain tension thing is a bit trivial but it's in my head now. The Pomp was only ever a workhorse to replace the Surly Crosscheck, if I could have put disc brakes on the Xcheck there'd have been no changes. The Vaya is pretty close to the Xcheck and has better head tube lengths than Pomp or Xcheck, so less spacers.

But it's not that big a change, I'm still going vertical dropouts, chainstay disc mounting and it's only the tension option I'm trying differently, I still reserve the right to go back to a chain tensioner. I think what really swung it for me was the fact that Phil Wood had brought out the Philcentric, even though that's not the one I've bought. With the Excentricker you kind of got 'those weird mechanical Germans', Forward Components is a one man band in Canada but the Phil Wood brand brings a legitamacy to the whole concept, for me at least. The Excentricker was tempting as it's the lightest and only one screw per side for adjustment but I saw comments from people that owned it saying they prefer the FC version. On MTBR.com the FC version gets a lot of good press, plus it's only £120 compared to £150 for the Excentricker and they include the installation tool whereas you pay an extra £15 for that with the other.

The more I read about them the more I realised that most of the negatives were from people that had never tried them and were just guessing at problems. There are a few negatives from users for both versions but my reading led me to think installation errors and/or very hard SS/fixed useage, neither of which will apply to me. I'll get the BB faced and the cups installed by the shop, the eccentric insert itself I can handle. I have noted that the installation tool for the Philcentric isn't available to the user, that's a shop job only. As all 3 work in basically the same way that tells me that correctly aligned installation is critical. The final decision was based on ease of replacement, and sourcing, for replacement bearings, the FC had a better reputation on that front and just seemed a bit more solid all round. Plus the flexibility of it being a hub gear means I can choose ring/cog to give me the maximum eccentric adjustment.

Like you I have longer term designs around the Alfine 11, I'll report in detail on how the FC works.


----------



## GrumpyGregry (29 Dec 2010)

Might go dibs on the pompey if you are serious about selling....

...and I'm sure you are!


----------



## MacB (29 Dec 2010)

GregCollins said:


> Might go dibs on the pompey if you are serious about selling....
> 
> ...and I'm sure you are!



I am and was thinking about it last night, currently I'm looking at frame, forks, seatpost clamp, headset and will throw in the mudguards adjusted to fit. The steerer tube is uncut but I did drill through the forks to mount the light bracket, there was a threaded hole at rear only originally....I am a teensy bit skewy with my drilling so slightly off centre  But I'll leave the long bolt with the double nut setup, so that you can adjust/remove mudguards without disturbing the rest of the bolt. 

I was thinking all that for £170, so £5 more than the frame on its own, it's knocking about 35% off new price....I can drop off, or you can collect as well which makes life easier. Have a think, I'm not in a rush and am happy to leave as dibs for a while.....Al


----------



## Fab Foodie (29 Dec 2010)

gaz said:


> What about the 2011 Genesis Day one?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's given me a hard-on....

Very nice, me wanty v. bad.


----------



## GrumpyGregry (29 Dec 2010)

MacB said:


> I was thinking all that for £170, so £5 more than the frame on its own, it's knocking about 35% off new price....I can drop off, or you can collect as well which makes life easier. Have a think, I'm not in a rush and am happy to leave as dibs for a while.....Al



Sold! Will have to pay you next year though ;-) 

I'll dm you when I'm back in blighty from La Belle France, leaving in a little while, and we will sort payment and pickup, etc.. That's my long term 2011 project sorted out then - a flat bar disc alfine(or sturmey) build


----------



## MacB (29 Dec 2010)

GregCollins said:


> Sold! Will have to pay you next year though ;-)
> 
> I'll dm you when I'm back in blighty from La Belle France, leaving in a little while, and we will sort payment and pickup, etc.. That's my long term 2011 project sorted out then - a flat bar disc alfine(or sturmey) build



Excellent, look forward to it, always nice to know something's going to a good home.


----------



## MacB (31 Dec 2010)

Well bugger it, best laid plans and all that, the Salsa Vaya frameset isn't happening, the 2010 have all sold out and the 2011 models aren't around until March, can't even see piccies of them. So I'm thinking again and saw this:-

http://www.evanscycles.com/products/jamis/aurora-elite-2011-touring-bike-ec025753#sizing

Comes with rack and guards, BB7's etc and clearance for about 35mm tyres, plus it's got the chainstay mounting for the disc brakes, I'm going to have a pootle over to Evans in Woking. The spec on the Evans site is a bit skewy it has the image and some of the detail for the 2011 model but retains some of the spec from the 2010 model. For example it shows the bike as having both SRAM Apex double tap and Shimano Tiagra shifters. But it seems a good price for the bike especially as the Salsa Vaya 2011 frameset is meant to go up to about £550, that's getting a bit close to custom frame prices for my tastes. 

Thining out loud I could pick this bike up and strip the parts for use on the Burls frame then bung the hub gear/dynamo running gear on this with the new mini EBB. It's not quite the running gear I envisaged for the Burls but it's not too far off and would save me a fortune.

I'm trying to see the downside on the Jamis, writeups seem good, frame is Reynolds 631, Avid BB7s and SRAM double tap shifters(I know they're the cheaper ones but that's ok). It just seems like a lot of bike for £1k compared to other stuff around....if anyone knows more about these bikes please holler.

Oh yeah, I quite like the gold colour as well, bit of bling!!!!


----------



## MacB (31 Dec 2010)

Panic over found the Vaya frameset in the US and also took the liberty of ordering a Winwood Muddy Carbon Cross Disc fork at the same time, decided I preferred the look of that to the Kinesis DC19 for the Ti bike.

Cost works out pretty well until I get hit with import duty...fingers crossed


----------



## HJ (1 Jan 2011)

MacB said:


> Panic over found the Vaya frameset in the US and also took the liberty of ordering a Winwood Muddy Carbon Cross Disc fork at the same time, decided I preferred the look of that to the Kinesis DC19 for the Ti bike.
> 
> Cost works out pretty well until I get hit with import duty...fingers crossed



I will be interested to hear how you get on with the Winwood Muddy Carbon Cross Disc fork, it looks interesting. I am think of changing the Norco to discs (just don't tells SWMBO)


----------



## MacB (1 Jan 2011)

HJ said:


> I will be interested to hear how you get on with the Winwood Muddy Carbon Cross Disc fork, it looks interesting. I am think of changing the Norco to discs (just don't tells SWMBO)



I had originally looked at the Winwood but couldn't find it in the UK and the cost to ship from the US was prohibitive, $315+$70ish. It was just that the site I found the Vaya on had the Winwood at $250(£250 is the best UK price I can find at Billys) and throwing it in with the frameset made almost no difference to the shipping price. The two together were about £550 shipped and the new Vaya, due in March, is apparently going to be near the £550 mark on its own.

You know me, I had to read about 50 reviews before I could commit, but it is one of the few rated for tandem useage so I figured it passed muster in the robust stakes. Plus it gives clearance up to 44mm tyres which means that I can run knobbly/studded tyres when needed. Once it's all here I'll dust of the camera Teef gave me and get some detailed pics up for perusal.


----------

