# Vets on Standard - explain please?



## Fubar (5 Feb 2015)

Hi

Can any of you knowledgable TT people explain how to calculate a Vets on Standard award?

I have "inherited" the awards responsibility for our club and while I have most of the rest of the results this is a bit of a mystery to me - asking around it seems a total mystery to everyone else as well!

I've downloaded the Standard Tables from the VTTA website so can see the times to be added for each age group, but is that compared to a previous best time for the rider (plus the previous standard) or a standard VTTA time? And our award seems to be over 10, 25, 50 and 100 so do I need to add all these together with the Standard Times??

If anyone can explain this in words of 2 syllables or less I'd be most appreciative! Cheers, Mark


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## Rob3rt (5 Feb 2015)

You take the distance and age of the rider, and look up their standard time. You then take their result and subtract the standard time from it. If someone beats their standard, they have a negative value. The person with the lowest value (or most negative) is the winner on standard.

Check your awards rules to check if the awards are given for seperate distances or if it is an all rounder type of award.

There are various ways of working out all rounder type of awards. Normally you take a riders average speed over each distance, add them together and then divide by the number of distances (in this case 4). This isn't a true average and favours riders who do well in shorter events, but it is the way it is done usually. As you are working to vets standards, it is unlikely you are going to be doing this, due to the modified times. So it might well be that you just need to add up all of the times and the lowest (or most negative) wins. It really depends on your clubs rule book as to how you do it.


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## Fubar (5 Feb 2015)

Rob3rt said:


> You take the distance and age of the rider, and look up their standard time. You then take their result and subtract the standard time from it. If someone beats their standard, they have a negative value. The person with the lowest value (or most negative) is the winner on standard.
> 
> Check your awards rules to check if the awards are given for seperate distances or if it is an all rounder type of award.
> 
> There are various ways of working out all rounder type of awards. Normally you take a riders average speed over each distance, add them together and then divide by the number of distances (in this case 4). This isn't a true average and favours riders who do well in shorter events, but it is the way it is done usually. As you are working to vets standards, it is unlikely you are going to be doing this, due to the modified times. So it might well be that you just need to add up all of the times and the lowest (or most negative) wins. It really depends on your clubs rule book as to how you do it.



Ah right, so the standard times ARE the standard times set for those distances!?! I thought that was a handicap that needed added/subtracted to their time 

From the results I have there are only 2 who have ridden all 4 distances and not knowing how to calculate it has been very frustrating.

what I think I will do is calculate it over the 4 distances separately then speak to the Chairman for the way our club awards it before submitting the trophy for engraving!

Many thanks for your help! Kind regards, Mark


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## Rob3rt (5 Feb 2015)

Fubar said:


> Ah right, so the standard times ARE the standard times set for those distances!?! I thought that was a handicap that needed added/subtracted to their time
> 
> From the results I have there are only 2 who have ridden all 4 distances and not knowing how to calculate it has been very frustrating.
> 
> ...



The standard times are "expected" times if you like. So you are comparing a riders actual time against their expected time. So you are looking for the rider who either exceeds expectation by the largest amount, or if no rider exceeds expectation, the rider who achieves a time closest to the expected time.

Example (hopefully my arithmetic is okay, hah).

40 year old, male, 10 miles

Expected time is 00:25:59, taken from the VTTA tables.

Rider A's actual time is: 00:26:03, their time on standard is +00:00:04
Rider B's actual time is: 00:24:30, their time on standard is -00:01:29
Rider C's actual time is: 00:27:30, their time on standard is +00:01:31

The winner is Rider B, 2nd Place goes to rider A, 3rd place to rider C.


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## ColinJ (5 Feb 2015)

Why not just say that the quickest vet wins!


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## Fubar (5 Feb 2015)

Rob3rt said:


> The standard times are "expected" times if you like. So you are comparing a riders actual time against their expected time. So you are looking for the rider who either exceeds expectation by the largest amount, or if no rider exceeds expectation, the rider who achieves a time closest to the expected time.
> 
> Example (hopefully my arithmetic is okay, hah).
> 
> ...



Brilliant - thanks for the clear explanation, I think I get it now! Was picturing a mass disagreement/brawl at our annual prize giving! Cheers, M


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## Rob3rt (5 Feb 2015)

ColinJ said:


> Why not just say that the quickest vet wins!



Because a vet is someone classed as 40 years or older, how is a 70 or 80 year old going to compete with that!


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## Fubar (5 Feb 2015)

ColinJ said:


> Why not just say that the quickest vet wins!



I think it's an attempt to "even out" the field so a 70 YO can compete against a 40 YO.


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## ColinJ (5 Feb 2015)

Rob3rt said:


> Because a vet is someone classed as 40 years or older, how is a 70 or 80 year old going to compete with that!


Oh, I see - different standards by age rather than just one standard for all vets!


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## Rob3rt (5 Feb 2015)

ColinJ said:


> Oh, I see - different standards by age rather than just one standard for all vets!



Yup: http://www.vtta.org.uk/information/standardstables.php

In my example, I kept it simple with 3 x 40 year old male riders, to show how the calculation is worked and how the positions are decided. In reality the riders will be of various ages, so you need to look up the standard time for each of them and do the calculations on a rider by rider basis.

It could have been the case that rider C was a 70 year old male, his standard time (taken from the VTTA tables) would have been 00:29:02, with the same actual time of 00:27:30, his adjusted time would have been -00:01:32, as such they would have been the winner. With Rider B 2nd and Rider A 3rd (assuming rider A and B were 40 year old male riders still).


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## Joshua Plumtree (5 Feb 2015)

Am I the only one thinking that 29.02 for a 70 year old is a cracking time. 
Just be happy to get out of the armchair unassisted at that age!


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## ColinJ (5 Feb 2015)

Joshua Plumtree said:


> Am I the only one thinking that 29.02 for a 70 year old is a cracking time.
> 
> Just be happy to get out of the armchair unassisted at that age!


70 isn't that old these days!

I'd have a go at that time. Just give me 11 years to train for it ...!


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## Rob3rt (5 Feb 2015)

Joshua Plumtree said:


> Am I the only one thinking that 29.02 for a 70 year old is a cracking time.
> Just be happy to get out of the armchair unassisted at that age!



I know a 70 year old who does 21's. I did a local 2-up with him (25 miles), we got round in 57:44 to win the event on standard.


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## Rob3rt (5 Feb 2015)

@Fubar Check which way round the subtraction is, since looking at some results, I may have done it the wrong way round in my example. But I am sure you now get the idea, so once you check which way round it is, you should have no problem working out the results and understanding who won


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## Ian H (5 Feb 2015)

Just to confuse the issue, CTT provides its own standard times, which are different to the VTTA's. Good, innit.


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## Fubar (5 Feb 2015)

Rob3rt said:


> @Fubar Check which way round the subtraction is, since looking at some results, I may have done it the wrong way round in my example. But I am sure you now get the idea, so once you check which way round it is, you should have no problem working out the results and understanding who won



Thanks, I've sent my calculations away for checking! Cheers, Mark


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## Fubar (5 Feb 2015)

Ian H said:


> Just to confuse the issue, CTT provides its own standard times, which are different to the VTTA's. Good, innit.



Shhh, I don't need to know that...


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## ColinJ (5 Feb 2015)

Are these 'standard times' specific to particular courses?

(If not, then the concept seems flawed to me!)


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## screenman (5 Feb 2015)

ColinJ said:


> Are these 'standard times' specific to particular courses?
> 
> (If not, then the concept seems flawed to me!)



It has a few problems but it is a fair way to do things. Why when it is about age should the course come into it, as the riders have a choice of that. But, as I am finding out we have no choice as to how old we are.


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## gds58 (5 Feb 2015)

Rob3rt said:


> @Fubar Check which way round the subtraction is, since looking at some results, I may have done it the wrong way round in my example. But I am sure you now get the idea, so once you check which way round it is, you should have no problem working out the results and understanding who won


Unfortunately you did do it the wrong way round! but the maths was correct. In other words if a rider (vet) beats his/her 'standard time' then they have a 'plus' of the amount they beat it by. Using your example of a 40 year old in a '10' he has a standard time of 25:59 so if he records a time of 24:30 for example, he has a 'plus' of 1:29

The standard times do not change from one course to another only according to riders age and the distance of the course. In a multi event or multi distance championship then the 'plusses' (or minuses) of the rider are added together as an aggregate time and the winner is simply the one with the greatest 'plus'time.

This is not to be confused with a handicap event where the handicap time is based on a riders previous fastest time at the distance and is then subtracted from his recorded time.

It's worth noting that multi national champion Mike Hutchinson turned Vet last year so if he was able to reproduce his '10' PB of 17:45 he would have a 'plus' of 8:14!! and I think that Matt Bottrill will be a vet this year!

Hope this all helps you a bit.

Graham


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## ColinJ (5 Feb 2015)

screenman said:


> It has a few problems but it is a fair way to do things. Why when it is about age should the course come into it, as the riders have a choice of that. But, as I am finding out we have no choice as to how old we are.


I was wondering whether 60 year old rider 'A' rides course 'X' might compare him/herself with 60 year old rider 'B' who is riding easier course 'Y'.

If it is only intended to be used to compare riders of different ages on the same course, then that makes sense.

What would make most sense would be to have narrow age groups of (say) 5 years so there need not be a massive difference _due to age_ between the extremes of the group. I suppose the problem there would be small numbers in each age group, especially the older ones.

(With my health history, I'm highly unlikely to ever be fit enough to ride competitively in any age group so it won't be relevant to me - I was just curious.)


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## screenman (6 Feb 2015)

The standards are set for every year from 40 upwards.

Even for a 20 year old you could not compare times on different courses as they vary so much. The V718 being a good couple of minutes quicker than any course in Lincolnshire for instance.


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## Rob3rt (6 Feb 2015)

gds58 said:


> Unfortunately you did do it the wrong way round! but the maths was correct. In other words if a rider (vet) beats his/her 'standard time' then they have a 'plus' of the amount they beat it by. Using your example of a 40 year old in a '10' he has a standard time of 25:59 so if he records a time of 24:30 for example, he has a 'plus' of 1:29
> 
> The standard times do not change from one course to another only according to riders age and the distance of the course. In a multi event or multi distance championship then the 'plusses' (or minuses) of the rider are added together as an aggregate time and the winner is simply the one with the greatest 'plus'time.
> 
> ...



Cheers for confirming. It is not something I usually look at so, my mistake.


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## Rob3rt (6 Feb 2015)

ColinJ said:


> Are these 'standard times' specific to particular courses?
> 
> (If not, then the concept seems flawed to me!)



No there is one set of times. It is a flaw, but that flaw is not unique to vets standards it is common to all CTT riders. It is something you have to just accept and live with, or you play the game and travel to the fast courses.


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## 400bhp (6 Feb 2015)

Rob3rt said:


> No there is one set of times. It is a flaw, but that flaw is not unique to vets standards it is common to all CTT riders. It is something you have to just accept and live with, or you play the game and travel to the fast courses.



But it's not a big flaw, as the idea is to even out the field for age.

Therefore the time differences are relative (% higher or lower) for each age over any given course.

They should use a lognormal calculation (teehee).

Surprised the women's ones are as close as they are to the mens? Seems unrealistic to me.


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## 400bhp (6 Feb 2015)

ColinJ said:


> I was wondering whether 60 year old rider 'A' rides course 'X' might compare him/herself with 60 year old rider 'B' who is riding easier course 'Y'.
> 
> If it is only intended to be used to compare riders of different ages on the same course, then that makes sense.
> 
> ...



You know what, this would make a great dissertation to a maths grad. I might give Manc Uni a shout.


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## oldroadman (13 Feb 2015)

Amazing how something so relatively simple can get so complicated! So CTT and VTTA have different standards...the unlimited British capacity for reinventing the wheel, I guess. Or the "it can't be right because it's not my idea" syndrome. All very odd, but then so is travelling hundreds of miles to a "fast" course. All TT times comparisons unless same course, same day are simply a lottery, depending on where you live, how much of your money you invest to feed an ego, etc...


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