# Where's Cav Going?



## Chris.IOW (3 Aug 2011)

So Cavendish has said he knows where he'll be next year but isn't telling us yet.

I personally wouldn't like to see him at Sky, the team have said there goal is to go for GC's and I can't see how a team can chase down breaks to give a sprinter a chance to win and support a GC contender.

I think he's agreed to stay where he is at present but can't say yet as it's all tied up with a new sponsorship deal for the team which had yet to be announced. 

What do others think?


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## raindog (3 Aug 2011)

He was sort of hinting it would be HTC with a new sponsor wasn't he? He obviously can"t say untill the sponsorship is signed. Then a couple weeks ago there was rumour that he wasn't far off signing with Quickstep, who will probably join up with Omega for next season. We may as well just wait untill everything's official.


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## wildjetskier (3 Aug 2011)

Agreed we dont know where he is going, but I for one will be following him wherever he chooses. Found this article which says what we have all been saying

http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/news/content/view/full/107826

ATB Jez


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## raindog (3 Aug 2011)

Contracts and transfers can sometimes become complicated though
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/quick-step-and-omega-pharma-merger-complicates-gilbert-transfer-saga


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## Keith Oates (3 Aug 2011)

I think that if HTC get funding he will stay with them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## monnet (3 Aug 2011)

I read his interview as sounding like Stapleton's got new sponsors lined up and so he'll stay put. 

According to the Times this morning (would love to put a link but we all know why I can't) he's not going to be joining Sky. Interesting as The Times have done a fair bit of flag waving to the effect that a Sky deal was all but done and obviously you'd think if anyone would have an inside track on Sky's goings on it would be The Times. THey reckoned that Stapleton's found a likely sponsor but they will only comit if Cavendish is in the team (which makes sense). 

I guess all we do is wait for a few weeks now.


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## RecordAceFromNew (3 Aug 2011)

Keith Oates said:


> I think that if HTC get funding he will stay with them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!



+1, and it will be a mess for all concerned if he ends up in Sky.

Somewhat off-topic but do we know what sort of national team will there be with him in Copenhagen next month?


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## Shadow (3 Aug 2011)

RecordAceFromNew said:


> ...and it will be a mess for all concerned if he ends up in Sky.



Agree totally.


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## monnet (3 Aug 2011)

RecordAceFromNew said:


> +1, and it will be a mess for all concerned if he ends up in Sky.
> 
> Somewhat off-topic but do we know what sort of national team will there be with him in Copenhagen next month?




Well he's mentioned Wiggins and Thomas. My guess is his team will consist mainly of Australians and Germans working more discretely than usual, in the knowledge it will help their bank accounts and contract negotiations for the coming year.


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## Cheddar George (3 Aug 2011)

Fingers crossed for HTC with a new sponsor, he needs a team focussed on getting him to the finishing line.


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## Chris.IOW (3 Aug 2011)

Article on BBC news from Thomas stating he would like to see him at Sky.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cycling/14379632.stm

Also states he's looking forward to leading Cav out at the World championships.

I still think that Sky would be a bad move for all concerned, spliting objectives is going to leave everyone unhappy. Cav has been so successful at the Tour because HTC have sent a team solely focused on winning stages.

Lets hope as people have suggested that it's all tied up with new sponsors and we can see the HTC (or whatever they will be called next year) train in action at the Tour next year.


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## Flying_Monkey (3 Aug 2011)

I agree that is sounded like he knows that HTC have new sponsors lined up and he's staying put. Which is the best thing for him.


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## RecordAceFromNew (3 Aug 2011)

Chris.IOW said:


> I still think that Sky would be a bad move for all concerned, spliting objectives is going to leave everyone unhappy. Cav has been so successful at the Tour because HTC have sent a team solely focused on winning stages.



+1, and it has been a stunning team imho. I wonder if the uncertainties so far has decimated the team for next year, even if it survives with Cav and a deep pocket sponsor - the team was a popular hunting ground by others in the past even without such financial uncertainty.


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## HLaB (3 Aug 2011)

I thought in his radio interview he was hinting that he might go nowhere and somebody has come back with a better offer, my guess Sky offered mega bucks, forcing highroad to up their offer a bit, it won't have been as big but Cav knows where his bread is buttered, he stresses that he is part of team and what better than a team focused around him and he's decided to stay. Only time will tell though


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## naffets (3 Aug 2011)

yes think hes staying put! strenghthend by the fact the velits brothers have left for quick step


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## fossyant (3 Aug 2011)

Yada yada..... Where the TEAM IS IT WILL BE...... yoda did that stuff... 

I like our Cav !


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## Flying_Monkey (4 Aug 2011)

Well it definitely will be somewhere other than HTC...

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/htc-highroad-disbands-after-failed-sponsor-search


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## Chris.IOW (4 Aug 2011)

Damn, that's such a shame. I'm going to miss that train. Could be interesting to see where he ends up now.

I'm still thinking it will be somewhere other than Sky. But could well be very wrong!!


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## Mac66 (4 Aug 2011)

Cav for Euskaltel! I'll get my coat.

On a more serious note I can't see Eddy or Ben being too happy at Sky if Cav has signed. Without the best leadout, the gorilla is likely to stamp on Cav. So will Sky sponsor the train?


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## tigger (4 Aug 2011)

Hmmm... the money has to be on Sky for me, would be cool but also I agree with everyones reservations here. Otherwise Garmin Cevelo ?? Would make sense as they are also quite stage win orientated and they must know by now that Farrar is ordinary and Hushovd is having to turn into more of a classic rider with age. Otherwise, how about Lampre given Ali Jet is past it?

Just a shame they couldn't keep THR going, that road have been the best option to me...


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## bigtoe (5 Aug 2011)

What about a russian lead out train (Locomotiv) for cav


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## VamP (5 Aug 2011)

Do we really think anyone (Sky included) is going to stump up top dollar for the world's best sprinter, and then not provide him with a train?


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## RecordAceFromNew (5 Aug 2011)

VamP said:


> Do we really think anyone (Sky included) is going to stump up top dollar for the world's best sprinter, and then not provide him with a train?



Sky's stated objective, right from the beginning, was to win THE Tour outright within 5 years. Giving Cav a train is never going to progress that.

Of course, Sky could easily change its stated strategic objective. But then it will also have to go back on its words to various recruits already under contract.

It is going to be a messy business.


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## Rykard (5 Aug 2011)

RecordAceFromNew said:


> Sky's stated objective, right from the beginning, was to win THE Tour outright within 5 years. Giving Cav a train is never going to progress that.
> 
> Of course, Sky could easily change its stated strategic objective. But then it will also have to go back on its words to various recruits already under contract.
> 
> It is going to be a messy business.


Only messy if he's going to Sky..


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## Simba (5 Aug 2011)

Garmin Cervelo with Mark Renshaw hopefully.


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## Chris.IOW (5 Aug 2011)

Simba said:


> Garmin Cervelo with Mark Renshaw hopefully.



+1 

I think this could be a good option. Wonder how long it will be till we find out.


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## Rykard (5 Aug 2011)

with the announcement that HTC is no more it could be sooner rather than later..


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## VamP (5 Aug 2011)

RecordAceFromNew said:


> Of course, Sky could easily change its stated strategic objective.




Signing Cav would be a declaration of change of strategic objective.


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## wildjetskier (5 Aug 2011)

Cavendish just tweeted " After 5 incredible years, it's heart-breaking to realise my team won't continue next year. My statement on my website" 


and his statement is here


http://www.markcavendish.co.uk/news/

ATB Jez


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## monnet (5 Aug 2011)

Hmmm, that quote on his website sounds identical to what he said on the radio before the story broke. Presumably the decision he'd made prior to the HTC collapse was to leave HTC regardless. Sky seems such a bad fit. I like the idea of Garmin - although I'm not sure how Tyler Farrar would feel about that. 

Given semi-national squads are all the rage these days, I reckon he should use his fame and influence and set up his own Team Manx.


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## VamP (5 Aug 2011)

monnet said:


> Hmmm, that quote on his website sounds identical to what he said on the radio before the story broke. Presumably the decision he'd made prior to the HTC collapse was to leave HTC regardless. Sky seems such a bad fit. I like the idea of Garmin - although I'm not sure how Tyler Farrar would feel about that.
> 
> Given semi-national squads are all the rage these days, I reckon he should use his fame and influence and set up his own Team Manx.



 
He might as well sign up you and me as his lead out men!

Oh wait, I am not from Man.


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## wildjetskier (6 Aug 2011)

Agree with Monnet but Brad says we would be welcome at Sky here's the article from today

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/more-...-at-sky-says-bradley-wiggins-115875-23324094/


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## Paul_L (6 Aug 2011)

wildjetskier said:


> Agree with Monnet but Brad says we would be welcome at Sky here's the article from today
> 
> http://www.mirror.co...15875-23324094/



says he would welcome it, but also suggests he's not sure how it would work if they had a GC contender, which i think is what we all think.


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## Angelfishsolo (6 Aug 2011)

From road.cc

*



If it’s true that Mark Cavendish is headed to Team Sky following the news that his current HTC-Highroad team is being shut down at the end of the season, then the Tour de France green jersey winner will have his first chance to line up alongside some of his future team mates in the London-Surrey Cycle Classic next Sunday, the test event for next summer’s Olympic road race.

Click to expand...

*


> According to the provisional start list published on the race website, four Team Sky riders are included in the six-man Great Britain squad for the 140 kilometre race, which starts on the Mall next Sunday at 9am before heading out through South West London to the Surrey Hills before turning back to the capital.
> 
> Those riders are Cavendish’s fellow Manxman Peter Kennaugh, Ben Swift, Ian Stannard and Alex Dowsett, with Garmin-Cervelo’s Roger Hammond completing the line-up. However, with five members of each team starting the race, one of those riders will miss out on the chance to race on the roads where the Olympic medals will be decided in less than 12 months’ time, most likely Swift who is in the Team Sky provisional line-up for the Eneco Tour which starts on Monday.
> 
> ...


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## RecordAceFromNew (6 Aug 2011)

Alas a (somewhat lukewarm) welcoming statement from Wiggins re possibility of Cav joing Sky.

What would you do if you were running Sky? How would you manage the diverse objectives of a) securing the Green jersey with a proven entity who is generally accepted as the fastest man on earth, and b) securing Wiggins a win in the GC?

Certainly these are not either/or options, and it can be very unwise to put all the eggs in one basket. On the other hand there are clear benefits in customising/running a team for the pursuit of a single objective.

Am I wrong in saying that leaving nationality and emotions aside Wiggins is kind of an older (but actually less experienced/successful, in UCI road racing terms) version of Tony Martin in htc Highroad?

Finally, do we think Sky Pro Racing has the management talent/experience/infrastructure to pull it off without a change in management?


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## chrisb7 (6 Aug 2011)

Isn't there a very good chance that Wiggins (& Thomas) will decide to miss the tour next year to concentrate on the Olympics leaving Sky without a GC contender and making Cav very attractive to Sky (and allowing the team to work pretty exclusively for him next year)?


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## Vikeonabike (8 Aug 2011)

Saw Sean Yates at Eurotunnel yesterday

"So is Cav coming to Sky?"










Is the question that I would have asked had it been me and not my wife who spoke to him....Still I got a Team sky cap anyway!


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## rich p (10 Aug 2011)

It doesn't look as if his main man, Renshaw will be joining him wherever Cav goes.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report-renshaw-to-be-number-one-sprinter-at-rabobank


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## martint235 (10 Aug 2011)

rich p said:


> It doesn't look as if his main man, Renshaw will be joining him wherever Cav goes.
> 
> http://www.cyclingne...ter-at-rabobank



Now that's interesting! So unless Cav goes to Rabobank, we'll have Cav v Renshaw at next year's tour....


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## lukesdad (10 Aug 2011)

Mmm Degenkolb at LT.


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## Flying_Monkey (10 Aug 2011)

Sprinting is about to get a whole lot more exciting - what with the emergence of Kittel at Skil-Shimano too...


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## gb155 (10 Aug 2011)

Looks like Cav is off to Garmin

Renshaw to Rabbobank

Where's the train going tho ?


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## Trickydicky (10 Aug 2011)

gb155 said:


> Looks like Cav is off to Garmin
> 
> Renshaw to Rabbobank
> 
> Where's the train going tho ?



Proof!
Or is this just some Trolling!
Or are u just a rumor mill!


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## montage (10 Aug 2011)

Too many rivals in Garmin, I can't see that happening


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## gb155 (10 Aug 2011)

The Garmin thing I think is 50/50 but I REALLY dont see him going to Sky as he cant have a large train, now if he had Renshaw he could have gotten away with a smaller train, but not now IMHO


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## montage (10 Aug 2011)

Eisel, G, EBH, Cav.....that is a pretty good train in my eyes.


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## lukesdad (11 Aug 2011)

montage said:


> Eisel, G, EBH, Cav.....that is a pretty good train in my eyes.




Can you see EBH doing that job ? I can t. Thomas needs to get out quick.


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## raindog (11 Aug 2011)

lukesdad said:


> Thomas needs to get out quick.


Get out? He's just resigned for three years.


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## philipbh (11 Aug 2011)

montage said:


> Too many rivals in Garmin, I can't see that happening




One less, now that Hushovd off to support Evans at BMC 

Still, can't see MC playing nicely with Heinreich Haussler


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## montage (11 Aug 2011)

lukesdad said:


> Can you see EBH doing that job ? I can t. Thomas needs to get out quick.



Well this is the issue, although Sky may be the best choice for Cav, Cav's joining will stunt the development of these promising riders - as has been discussed many times.


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## Flying_Monkey (11 Aug 2011)

Any team with a range of talented riders is going to have rivalries and people who don't like the set-up. The only teams that won't will be ones with a far more limited number of outstanding talent, and a load of obvious domestiques, and I don't think Cav is going to like being at a team of donkeys.


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## RecordAceFromNew (11 Aug 2011)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Any team with a range of talented riders is going to have rivalries and people who don't like the set-up. The only teams that won't will be ones with a far more limited number of outstanding talent, and a load of obvious domestiques, and I don't think Cav is going to like being at a team of donkeys.



According to your thesis, would you call the htc team in this year's Tour a team with rivals who don't like the set-up, or a team of donkeys that he didn't like?


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## Flying_Monkey (11 Aug 2011)

RecordAceFromNew said:


> According to your thesis, would you call the htc team in this year's Tour a team with rivals who don't like the set-up, or a team of donkeys that he didn't like?



Heh. It's clearly not just either / or... 

HTC clearly had internal tensions and individual ambitions that were not being allowed to flourish - that's why Griepel left and it's why Renshaw is signing for a different team than Cavendish. Doesn't mean that HTC wasn't at the same time, highly professional, well-coached or that these people all hated each other. Far from it. 

But HTC was a rather unusual team by today's standards as several others have pointed out. Teams oriented largely around an organised sprint train are few and far-between these days, and I think whichever team Cav goes to, it won't be like that. But then again I also think that Cav is good enough that he can adapt to a less specialized team environment. So I don't think, in the absence of HTC as an option, that Sky would be any worse than most of the other options he will have.


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## monnet (11 Aug 2011)

With regard to the Garmin rumour mill that seems to have established itself overnight, have I missed something about where Tyler Farrar is going to be based next year? Anyway, I'm not going to dismiss it out of hand as it seems an interesting proposition especially if Farrar can be persuaded to concentrate on the Classics. I'm inclined to agree a smaller team might be a good shout - or something like the Green Edge. 

AS for all the talk of Cav needing a train, have we forgotten how he made his name in the first place? For the last couple of years HTC have delivered him perfectly to the line but you don't just turn pro and get given a lead out, you have to earn that. As Cavendish proved in his 1st (?) stage this year, he can win without a train and he used to do that regularly. He knows how to hold a wheel but he's also hard enough to switch wheels in a sprint in the manner of McEwen and Kelly. I'm not saying the existence of train won't have prejudiced his negotiations, nor am I saying he'll win 5 stages without one (he'd probably have to settle for 2 or 3), but the point is he is more than capable of winning without a whole team riding for him.


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## wildjetskier (3 Sep 2011)

Just for a bit of gossip but Cav has been riding all week in Girona with Matt Wilson and David Millar.....Garmin boys, also Jeremy Hunt joined them...Sky, just old friends out for a training week......


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## oldroadman (3 Sep 2011)

In Girona he could be out with any of several dozen pros. It's a place they seem to like to be. Don't read too much into anything like that.
On the Sky possibility, how does this "stunt the development" of younger riders? A team at their level is allowed up to 30 riders, and is often riding three races at any one time - so if they are in a major tour (9 riders), another race (maybe 6-8 riders) and yet another slightly lesser race (6 riders), that's at least 21-23 riders on the road at any one time. Take time out for rest periods, injury, specific event preparation, and there is plenty of work for everyone. Even when there is not a major tour, at least 18-20 riders will be in races somewhere.


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## TVC (4 Sep 2011)

Cav has tweeted where he's off to....


















The hairdresser apparently. Nothing on his new team though.


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## Ajax_Gaz (4 Sep 2011)

How soon before the next real team event where we'd obviously know who's going where? - Is this not until 2012 now? 

When does the HTC team dispand? I kinda thought he and Renshaw would go somewhere together but i can understand Renshaw looking after himself by going to a different team. 

Either way it will be interesting where Cav goes and the repurcussions to that team to accomodate him.


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## HLaB (16 Sep 2011)

Well he's not off to Radobank, Renshaw has announced that he is not following Cav (Renshaw I believe is off to Radobank).


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## lukesdad (17 Sep 2011)

raindog said:


> Get out? He's just resigned for three years.




Bad Move IMO


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## beastie (17 Sep 2011)

lukesdad said:


> Bad Move IMO


Why? He's just finished 2nd in a GT. Wiggins will go for tour and Froome can Target either of the other 2.


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## rich p (17 Sep 2011)

beastie said:


> Why? He's just finished 2nd in a GT. Wiggins will go for tour and Froome can Target either of the other 2.




RD and LD are referring to a different GT. Geraint Thomas!


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## Dayvo (17 Sep 2011)

lukesdad said:


> Thomas needs to get out quick.






raindog said:


> Get out? He's just resigned for three years.






lukesdad said:


> Bad Move IMO






beastie said:


> Why? He's just finished 2nd in a GT. Wiggins will go for tour and Froome can Target either of the other 2.




They were talking about Geraint Thomas, I think, not Froome.


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## lukesdad (17 Sep 2011)

lukesdad said:


> Bad Move IMO




Sorry yes Thomas


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## beastie (17 Sep 2011)

Dayvo said:


> They were talking about Geraint Thomas, I think, not Froome.


Oops !


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## Andy84 (18 Sep 2011)

I was waiting for cav to come out of the (surprisingly small) HTC bus, to sign autographs after today's tob stage.

He came out signed a few, then about 30 of us ' went for a walk'!

My sister got a stage map signed by him, then I politely asked him if he was allowed to sign my hat yet?

I held out my team sky hat, he didn't actually say anything, but he gave us a cheeky smile took the hat and signed it. :-)


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## downfader (18 Sep 2011)

Andy84 said:


> I was waiting for cav to come out of the (surprisingly small) HTC bus, to sign autographs after today's tob stage.
> 
> He came out signed a few, then about 30 of us ' went for a walk'!
> 
> ...




Sounds like a contract in my book.


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## endoman (22 Sep 2011)

Have a mate doing a charity ride, Team Sky are involved, and he tells me Cavendish is nailed on for them. Some bits of an interview he did here where he mentions Cavendish.


View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrwuzCCI-oE&feature=colike


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## Dayvo (22 Sep 2011)

endoman said:


> Have a mate doing a charity ride, Team Sky are involved, and he tells me Cavendish is nailed on for them. Some bits of an interview he did here where he mentions Cavendish.
> 
> http://www.youtube.c...&feature=colike




Cricket and cycling: my two great loves.

Good interview - he comes across as a very decent fella. Laughed when he said 40-50 miles was a long way. Hope they do well.

And didn't that Sky shirt fit Cav very well.


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## endoman (22 Sep 2011)

I've been training with him, he's done one 80 odd miler so far, and and a handful of 50's. It will be hard work, but he will do it! He's not riding again until the ride starts on Oct 7, as he's off on holiday! Bonkers I know.


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## rich p (22 Sep 2011)

Nice one. Dayvo and I are both cricket fans.

Chris Adams did wonders for Sussex CCC when he was in charge and it's a regret that he moved to Surrey to manage them, taking Rory Hamilton-Brown with him. 

Chris always comes over as a decent bloke too; I wish them well.


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## GGB_Andrew (23 Sep 2011)

Well Wiggo dropped a bollock by insinuating that Cav will be riding with Sky next year in his interview with the Guardian yesterday. 


I also heard on Sat that Cav had turned down an offer of £4m a year from Quick Step to join Team Sky on a £2.5m a year contract. Whispers mind, nothing concrete. 

I suspect Monday will bring the announcement and cycling's worst kept secret


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## Keith Oates (24 Sep 2011)

If the rumour is correct and he turned down #4 million with Quick Step to go to Sky at #2.5 milion that's his heart ruling his head!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## oldroadman (24 Sep 2011)

Keith Oates said:


> If the rumour is correct and he turned down #4 million with Quick Step to go to Sky at #2.5 milion that's his heart ruling his head!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Which simply proves that the numbers quoted are complete spheroids. Which is why rumour is fun but can't be seriously considered. "My mate is doing a ride in which Sky are involved and someone said he is nailed on for 2012".
Clearly a dependable source.......
Like many, I think the next week will be one of revalation.


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## brockers (24 Sep 2011)

Am I the only one who doesn't want him to go to Sky? As others have probably said, it's going to be difficult to estsblish who's team leader. Wiggins, Cav, or Chris Froome (after the Vuelta)? Personally I think it would be great if Cav went to QuickStep as Boonen seems to be a spent force (relatively speaking), and he'd be a constant irritant to Mr Brailsford's masterplan. Not that I have anything against Dave or Sky, I just find drama and conflict more entertaining than a watching a well-oiled machine!


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## martint235 (24 Sep 2011)

brockers said:


> Am I the only one who doesn't want him to go to Sky? As others have probably said, it's going to be difficult to estsblish who's team leader. Wiggins, Cav, or Chris Froome (after the Vuelta)? Personally I think it would be great if Cav went to QuickStep as Boonen seems to be a spent force (relatively speaking), and he'd be a constant irritant to Mr Brailsford's masterplan. Not that I have anything against Dave or Sky, I just find drama and conflict more entertaining than a watching a well-oiled machine!



No I don't think Sky is a good place for him either. I still think it would be difficult for Sky to field 9 riders that can target two GT jerseys. For Cav you need a lead out train of I'd say 4, now two of those can be riders that are generally strong and support a GC jersey bid on non-sprint days but even then the numbers don't add up to me.

I'd like him to go to Rabobank and rejoin Renshaw. I've seen a couple of interviews with Renshaw since the announcement and all he's said is "Next year will be interesting". All Cav has had to say really is a quote from ToB "I hope he likes coming second" or words to that effect. Maybe it's just me but I'd be quite please and amused if he went there.


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## downfader (24 Sep 2011)

brockers said:


> Am I the only one who doesn't want him to go to Sky? As others have probably said, it's going to be difficult to estsblish who's team leader. Wiggins, Cav, or Chris Froome (after the Vuelta)? Personally I think it would be great if Cav went to QuickStep as Boonen seems to be a spent force (relatively speaking), and he'd be a constant irritant to Mr Brailsford's masterplan. Not that I have anything against Dave or Sky, I just find drama and conflict more entertaining than a watching a well-oiled machine!




*COUGH!!* Europcar *COUGH!!*


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## brockers (24 Sep 2011)

Oh! I see...Nudge, nudge. Say no more, say no more... My finger is well and truly off the pulse!


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## RecordAceFromNew (25 Sep 2011)

brockers said:


> Am I the only one who doesn't want him to go to Sky? As others have probably said, it's going to be difficult to estsblish who's team leader. Wiggins, Cav, or Chris Froome (after the Vuelta)? Personally I think it would be great if Cav went to QuickStep as Boonen seems to be a spent force (relatively speaking), and he'd be a constant irritant to Mr Brailsford's masterplan. *Not that I have anything against Dave or Sky, I just find drama and conflict more entertaining than a watching a well-oiled machine!*



Sky a well oiled machine?

I hope I am wrong, but if Cav is going there then presumably Sky wants next year's Tdf green jersey, and if that is the case why is Wiggins saying "it might be all about Cav and winning the green jersey, in which case I don't go to the Tour"? Who in Sky is as good a lead out man as Renshaw, and who in Sky is as good a time trialist as Martin?

Imho the fundamental reason why htc Highroad is the most successful pro cycling team in the world is not because they have Cav, but because they know how to pull strong riders together all willing to park their own ego for the team's purpose, thereby dominating the battles they choose with near clockwork predictability - like a well oiled machine. To me that, such as the htc train in full flight, is a pure joy to watch.


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## brockers (25 Sep 2011)

^^^^ In a strange way, that was what I meant!!


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## Intelligenthamster (25 Sep 2011)

I agree with Brockers, no disrespect to Cav but I would love to see Wiggins and / or Froome do really well and can't help feeling his presence in the team might hinder that if everyone is looking after Cav the whole time. Geraint Thomas is blossoming into a good rider and I'd like to see him developing more.

It *might* be possible for Sky to have it both ways if the GC contenders take priority in TTs and mountains.

Well done to the GB team today!


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## HLaB (25 Sep 2011)

Intelligenthamster said:


> I agree with Brockers, no disrespect to Cav but I would love to see Wiggins and / or Froome do really well and can't help feeling his presence in the team might hinder that if everyone is looking after Cav the whole time. Geraint Thomas is blossoming into a good rider and I'd like to see him developing more.
> 
> It *might* be possible for Sky to have it both ways if the GC contenders take priority in TTs and mountains.
> 
> Well done to the GB team today!


I was thinking similar after todays race, I don't know where Wiggins, Froome and Geraint finished but I wonder if would have been closer to the front without having had to look after Cav and is that a sign of things to come ?


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## rich p (26 Sep 2011)

HLaB said:


> I was thinking similar after todays race, I don't know where Wiggins, Froome and Geraint finished but I wonder if would have been closer to the front without having had to look after Cav and is that a sign of things to come ?




They would or could have been nearer the front but they wouldn't have won, which is the point. It's a team game and for any of the others to do better they would still have needed leading out and protecting by someone and Cav had the best (only?) chance of a GB win.

That's not to say that the same would apply in a GT though and therein lies the dilemma.


----------



## dellzeqq (26 Sep 2011)

Sky would clearly want Cavendish, as he's a much better bet for a jersey than either Wiggins or Froome, but, as Tall Martin says, Sky are simply not able to compete for two jerseys. If Cavendish does go to Sky then Wiggins will content himself with the time trials and being third or fourth man in the lead-out.


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## PpPete (26 Sep 2011)

dellzeqq said:


> If Cavendish does go to Sky then Wiggins will content himself with the time trials and being third or fourth man in the lead-out.



Would he though ?
Depending on how quickly the tour reaches the mountains in 2012, Wiggins could have a crack at getting an early yellow jersey? If it works out all well & good, if not then he gets off and finishes up preparation for the Olympic TT ?


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## dellzeqq (26 Sep 2011)

I don't see how that would work, Pete. Cavendish would be hoping to get two or more stage wins before the mountains and two or more after. My thought is that the team that pays him millions will move heaven and earth to ensure that he does get those wins, which means talented riders burying themselves in pursuit of escapes and, at the very least, maintaining a high tempo for the last 40km or so.

All of which can be done if you have the talent, and Sky could, we presume, afford the talent. But, looking at 2011's GC results it's clear that HTC were a team with one purpose only - their top GC rider came 19th and there were four HTC riders in the last twenty. 

You have to go back to the 'halcyon' days of Team Telekom (forerunners of HTC?) to find a team capable of winning the green and mounting a serious challenge for the yellow. Is this possible without 'help'? And is Wiggins a serious GC contender? 

Maybe you're right, and maybe Sky will simply hoover up the riders they need to accomplish the job, but it would have to be one heck of a line-up


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## Tompy (26 Sep 2011)

HLaB said:


> I was thinking similar after todays race, I don't know where Wiggins, Froome and Geraint finished but I wonder if would have been closer to the front without having had to look after Cav and is that a sign of things to come ?



What a ridiculous comment. Have you totally missed the point of the World Championships and the way they work?


Cav is going to Sky - trust me - it was confirmed to me by a very reputable source in June at the British Nationals.

In a grand tour, GC riders generally need one or two domestiques in the mountains. That leaves 5 or 6 riders able to chase down breaks for a sprinter. Cav doesn't need a lead-out train to win bunchies, look at yesterday's race. 

I'm not saying it will definitely work out, but Team Sky do not just hoover up talented riders without considering how they will fit into the team - give them some credit.

Oh and just a wee claim to fame but if you saw the race yesterday, the large Union Jack being waved near the finish line (and visible in many of the photos of the race) was held by yours truly. :-)


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## HLaB (26 Sep 2011)

Tompy said:


> What a ridiculous comment. Have you totally missed the point of the World Championships and the way they work?
> 
> 
> Cav is going to Sky - trust me - it was confirmed to me by a very reputable source in June at the British Nationals.
> ...



I know its a team game but Cav going to Sky IMO will change the team balance, Wiggins et al. will only become super domestiques and not able to challenge for the GC, only time will tell but thats MO and I'd like to be wrong. As to the flag


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## martint235 (26 Sep 2011)

Tompy said:


> In a grand tour, GC riders generally need one or two domestiques in the mountains. That leaves 5 or 6 riders able to chase down breaks for a sprinter. Cav doesn't need a lead-out train to win bunchies, look at yesterday's race.



I agree that Cav can probably survive without a lead out train but given the way the points are decided in the TdF now, I still can't see how a team of 9 riders can go for overall GC and the green jersey. On a flat day you need to chase down the breakaways before the intermediate sprint and again before the end, now in the first week this is quite easy () but flash forward a week or so and with Wiggins defending the yellow jersey, are Sky really going to put that much effort into chasing down a break? And if they aren't it kind of negates Cav's presence, sure he'll still win lots of stages but not the green jersey.


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## Tompy (26 Sep 2011)

Well if they're chasing down a break they can put their GC man on Cav's wheel. He'll get a tow to the last 3km and keep him at the front of the race out of trouble. Easy. 

Evans won this year without many riders around him in the mountains. That used to be the norm. The phenomenon of a whole team working for their GC rider even on mountain stages is from the Armstrong era. Look to Bruyneel trying that next year with Schleck. 

Before Larry Armstrong, teams didn't do that although admittedly Team Sky did adopt this same tactic in this year's Dauphine to stifle attacks against Wiggins in the mountains.


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## Fiona N (26 Sep 2011)

PpPete said:


> Would he though ?
> Depending on how quickly the tour reaches the mountains in 2012, Wiggins could have a crack at getting an early yellow jersey? If it works out all well & good, if not then he gets off and finishes up preparation for the Olympic TT ?



And has another go at winning the Vuelta


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## RecordAceFromNew (26 Sep 2011)

Tompy said:


> Cav doesn't need a lead-out train to win bunchies, look at yesterday's race.



That is of course true, because he is the fastest sprinter on the planet. But if you look at the aerial view of the last k yesterday, precisely because his lead-out train didn't work, he could have so easily been boxed in on the right, and Matt Goss would have been champion. 

Having a great train is not necessary to win sprints, but evidence suggests was necessary for Cav to win the tdF Green - despite Highroad's single-minded attempts in previous years and his form this year, it was only clinched on Champs-Elysees.

In fact I think Renshaw or Goss could possibly have won it yesterday if Renshaw wasn't sidelined by the Aussies, but that is another story.


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## PpPete (26 Sep 2011)

Cav already has a Green and a Rainbow Jersey.... he wants an Olympic medal for sure - and he'll need the help of Wiggins/Thomas/Froome again to get that. A few more TdF stage wins would be nice if he's going for a career record... but he might be prepared to sacrifice a chance at the 2012 Green so as not to jeopardise the chances of Sky's GC contenders. 

That said I've a suspicion that Brailsford might try to keep both Green & Yellow options open as long as possible in next year's TdF - not with any realistic expectation of taking both jerseys...more to keep the peloton guessing.


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## lukesdad (27 Sep 2011)

It would be nice to know who the road captain was at the worlds. does anybody know, wasn t Millar by any chance ?


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## raindog (27 Sep 2011)

Yes, it was Millar.


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## lukesdad (27 Sep 2011)

raindog said:


> Yes, it was Millar.




Thanks raindog.


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## Crackle (27 Sep 2011)

Interesting article in the Guardian today

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2011/sep/26/mark-cavendish-london-2012-olympics


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## woohoo (27 Sep 2011)

Crackle said:


> Interesting article in the Guardian today
> 
> http://www.guardian....n-2012-olympics


That article is remarkably similar to the one in the Times which I read in a cafe this morning. I didn't see the writer's name but I wonder if they are both based on a press release.


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## rich p (28 Sep 2011)

woohoo said:


> That article is remarkably similar to the one in the Times which I read in a cafe this morning. I didn't see the writer's name but I wonder if they are both based on a press release.




Richard Williams of The Guardian is a big cycling fan and he regularly does articles. He also manages to get cycling into his weekly column usually too. What with William Fotheringham writing too, the Grauniad is well-served for in that respect.


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## alecstilleyedye (30 Sep 2011)

just seen cav on bbc breakfast. the usual rubbish muppet interview and not even asking him which team he's riding for next year. asking if the team helped by "intimidating" the other riders


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## yello (30 Sep 2011)

PpPete said:


> but he might be prepared to sacrifice a chance at the 2012 Green so as not to jeopardise the chances of Sky's GC contenders.



Methinks if Cavendish wasn't going for green then he wouldn't be in anyones team. 

Re the olympics, I personally can't see him doing other than wanting green AND wanting an Olympic medal. I don't see why it's not possible.


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## addictfreak (30 Sep 2011)

alecstilleyedye said:


> just seen cav on bbc breakfast. the usual rubbish muppet interview and not even asking him which team he's riding for next year. asking if the team helped by "intimidating" the other riders



I watched the interview this morning on BBC, I thought the two presenters were appalling. Didn't give Cav the chance to complete an answer without making some stupid comment.


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## dragon72 (30 Sep 2011)

addictfreak said:


> I watched the interview this morning on BBC, I thought the two presenters were appalling. Didn't give Cav the chance to complete an answer without making some stupid comment.



The whole BBC Breakfast tabloid schtick, whatever the topic they're dealing with, is embarrassing, tacky and flippant in the extreme. Cringeworthy stuff. "News" lite.


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## monnet (1 Oct 2011)

The bit that got me was when the interviewer prefaced a question about winning the race by 10cm with 'I don't know alot about cycling...' Really?! Then the questions about 'where does your strength come from?'...

Dave Millar tweeted that he was wondering if Cav was going to be asked what he does for a real job. Still, I thought Cav did a great job, didn't lose patience, stayed polite and I guess the more times he's on these types of thing the more people will start to understand exactly what's involved.


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## TVC (1 Oct 2011)

monnet said:


> The bit that got me was when the interviewer prefaced a question about winning the race by 10cm with 'I don't know alot about cycling...' Really?! Then the questions about 'where does your strength come from?'...
> 
> Dave Millar tweeted that he was wondering if Cav was going to be asked what he does for a real job. Still, I thought *Cav did a great job, didn't lose patience, stayed polite and I guess the more times he's on these types of thing the more people will start to understand exactly what's involved*.



If he's after SPOTY, (and I don't see why not, he's so damn competitive) then these are the kind of interviews he has to do to get him known to the muggles. Doing Blue Peter and getting in the audience for Strictly are the next tricks we need to look out for, it's all exposure.


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## monnet (1 Oct 2011)

He'd be quality on Strictly - he used to do a lot of ballroom dancing when he was a kid, didn't he?


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## Strathlubnaig (1 Oct 2011)

alecstilleyedye said:


> just seen cav on bbc breakfast. the usual rubbish muppet interview and not even asking him which team he's riding for next year. asking if the team helped by "intimidating" the other riders



Yes, I hung off going out the door to work a bit longer, thinking it would be the ideal chance to make some sort of statement about which team, can't believe the bbc gadgie never asked...shows how much, or how little, research they do.


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## yello (1 Oct 2011)

Strathlubnaig said:


> can't believe the bbc gadgie never asked...shows how much, or how little, research they do.



In fairness, they may have known and been asked/told not to ask about it. I'm presuming people being interviewed (certainly for something light like breakfast tv) get to see the questions in advance, just to prepare themselves and to veto any they don't want to speak about.


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## downfader (1 Oct 2011)

Charlie wossisface is a terrible presenter anyway. He's not inquisitive like a real journo and makes several mistakes (usually funny, like the one where he pissed off the Star Wars fans)

Bill Turnbull is a legend though.


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## alecstilleyedye (1 Oct 2011)

on a live chat on sky sports, dave brailsford compared bmc to man city; in other words they have a lot of money and can probably offer cav the most money.

worth an outside bet methinks…


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## dragon72 (2 Oct 2011)

downfader said:


> Charlie wossisface is a terrible presenter anyway. He's not inquisitive like a real journo and makes several mistakes (usually funny, like the one where he pissed off the Star Wars fans)
> 
> Bill Turnbull is a legend *penis *though.



FTFY


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## downfader (2 Oct 2011)

dragon72 said:


> FTFY




..and how long have you had penis on your mind?


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## monnet (2 Oct 2011)

alecstilleyedye said:


> on a live chat on sky sports, dave brailsford compared bmc to man city; in other words they have a lot of money and can probably offer cav the most money.
> 
> worth an outside bet methinks…



Bit rich coming from Brailsford isn't it? Isn't that exactly how Sky came across when they started out - waving their money around and p1ssing off everyone else in the sport? At least BMC have got a couple of seasons behind them and a TdeF victory.


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## brockers (2 Oct 2011)

WHEN THE CHUFFIN' HECK IS HE GOING TO TELL US???


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## moxey (3 Oct 2011)

brockers said:


> WHEN THE CHUFFIN' HECK IS HE GOING TO TELL US???



When he was interviewed on sky sports news about it they asked him and he just smiled and said they were still sorting 1 or 2 things out with his contract and it should be being announced in the next week or two. 

My money's on Sky.


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## raindog (3 Oct 2011)

This is interesting though.....
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cavendish-to-omega-pharma-quickstep


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## gb155 (3 Oct 2011)

raindog said:


> This is interesting though.....
> http://www.cyclingne...harma-quickstep[/quote]
> 
> 
> ...


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## moxey (3 Oct 2011)

I'd heard or read somewhere that Cav has a deal with Nike over his Image rights etc and with Sky being sponsored by Adidas that is what was holding things up. 
Interesting about the bike saga though. 

Only time will tell


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## Rob3rt (3 Oct 2011)

Its not unheard of for a rider to ride a frame of choice plastered in the sponsors logo's. Just brand up a Specialized with Pinarello and there you go.

I've heard that Cadel Evan's rode a PX Stealth frame (PX designed the frame, but didnt buy the mold, so it is possible to buy non-branded versions - there are several brands selling this frame under different names, moda being one example) branded as Ridley in the TdF TT 2007, pictures show him riding a bike that resembles a PX.


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## RecordAceFromNew (3 Oct 2011)

gb155 said:


> He's only been using Spesh one year tho - as HTC used to ride Scott's , so I suspect it's not that tbh !



But it is precisely this last year when they started using the Venge. At the speed Cav does, there is probably some real aerodynamic advantages in power performance. Tony Martin also insisted on their bikes is also interesting - these are the guys who have had real experience.

It has also been said recently that Cav is not so concerned about his bike's weight.


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## Rob3rt (3 Oct 2011)

RecordAceFromNew said:


> But it is precisely this last year when they started using the Venge. At the speed Cav does, there is probably some real aerodynamic advantages in power performance. Tony Martin also insisted on their bikes is also interesting - these are the guys who have had real experience.
> 
> It has also been said recently that Cav is not so concerned about his bike's weight.



He is a sprinter, so it makes sense that bike weight isnt as huge concern as much as power transfer, and if you are a major weight weenie, you are going to have to sacrifice some power transfer through frame flex, this is what a sprinters nightmares are made of. So long as its not silly heavy  

TT bikes are very fast, but they arent very light. My full carbon TT bike is heavier than my Alu road bike.


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## Tompy (3 Oct 2011)

Whatever is holding up his move to whoever, I seriously doubt that it's a preference to keep riding Specialized.

In interviews, Cav is always talking about what he does as his job, getting expsoure for his team's sponsors, etc. I can't see him picking the wrong team just because of their bike sponsor.

Cav might have an image rights deal with Nike but that will be for images of him wearing Nike clothing (either on or off the bike). That can remain in place if he moved to Adidas-sponsored Sky, he just wouldn't make much money from it any more as who would want to pay to use photos of him in old kit.


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## raindog (3 Oct 2011)

I should think it's just sponsorship details holding up the signing of the contract, but if he really does want to stick with Spesh, then that could be a real stumbling block. I can't see either bike maker happy with a rebadged Specialized. The odinary public would never know, but potential buyers - eg race fans - would, and Pinarello's reputation would take a knock.


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## Tompy (3 Oct 2011)

raindog said:


> I should think it's just sponsorship details holding up the signing of the contract, but if he really does want to stick with Spesh, then that could be a real stumbling block. I can't see either bike maker happy with a rebadged Specialized. The odinary public would never know, but potential buyers - eg race fans - would, and Pinarello's reputation would take a knock.



Pinarello's are pretty distinctive with their asymmetrical design and wavy tube shapes.

Plus, this bike-sponsor situation hasn't changed over the summer so it smacks of rumour. And Pinarello's sponsorship of Sky/British Cycling goes a lot deeper than a few Dogmas for Team Sky.


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## Rob3rt (3 Oct 2011)

Tompy said:


> *Pinarello's are pretty distinctive* with their asymmetrical design and wavy tube shapes.
> 
> Plus, this bike-sponsor situation hasn't changed over the summer so it smacks of rumour. And Pinarello's sponsorship of Sky/British Cycling goes a lot deeper than a few Dogmas for Team Sky.



Read as Pinarello's are ugly!


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## monnet (3 Oct 2011)

I think it looks like a pretty good move, if that's what goes through. Half of HTC are already there. As are couple of the backroom staff. Bikes or not, it looks like a home from home for him. Remember there were some strong rumours of Quick Step before the merger with Pharma was announced. They also need a big name star who can win - Cav will fit that bill, gets his old lead out train and Boonen gets a load of strong men to help him come up short in the classics.

Better for Cav than Sky, IMHO.


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## Flying_Monkey (3 Oct 2011)

monnet said:


> Better for Cav than Sky, IMHO.



I think so too. But I suspect the story about Specialized is simply PR fluff spread by the company itself.


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## yello (3 Oct 2011)

Yes, I too can't believe the bike would *really* be a sticking point... but what do I know?


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## raindog (4 Oct 2011)

User said:


> Omega Pharma-QuickStep


irish - we've been discussing that for nearly two pages


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## Keith Oates (4 Oct 2011)

I think Cav is planning for a job with the UCI when he hangs up his wheels, so he's dithering around to show his inability to make a positive decision quickly so that they will know he's had good training for the job!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Scoosh (4 Oct 2011)

Keith Oates said:


> I think Cav is planning for a job with the UCI when he hangs up his wheels, so he's dithering around to show his inability to make a positive decision quickly so that they will know he's had good training for the job!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Unlikely - he speaks his mind too readily.





[he's too honest 



]


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## yello (4 Oct 2011)

very good Keith! Made me laugh


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## raindog (4 Oct 2011)

more on the subjecthttp://www.cyclingnews.com/news/sky-confirms-no-signed-contract-with-cavendish


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## yello (4 Oct 2011)

Careful Mark, you could he end up without a team!


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## Flying_Monkey (4 Oct 2011)

The final quote from the OP-QS manager is interesting:

"This season I have not yet exchanged three words with Cavendish. I have negotiated with his friend and teammate Bernard Eisel,” Lefevere told _Het Nieuwsblad_. “He was quite clear to me and said: 'Sorry, but Mark needs to go to Sky for many reasons and I am going along. We have now been signed.' So, to my knowledge Cavendish is no longer free.”

It seems to be the case you often get in football of agents and personal sponsorship deals versus a team's commitments and deals. But if Eisel is committed to going to Sky with Cav then I am pretty sure they will resolve this eventually by throwing cash at the problem...


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## raindog (4 Oct 2011)

Yeah, I expect the hold up is simply an army of lawyers working on the small print of the contract. Nothing seems to be bloody straightforward any more.


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## rich p (4 Oct 2011)

Shades of Wiggins' move from Garmin to Sky. Primadonnas!


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## philipbh (4 Oct 2011)

Tompy said:


> Cav might have an image rights deal with Nike but that will be for images of him wearing Nike clothing (either on or off the bike). That can remain in place if he moved to Adidas-sponsored Sky, he just wouldn't make much money from it any more as who would want to pay to use photos of him in old kit.



This would also be a problem if he goes to OP - QS - whose kit sponsor were / are Vermarc Sport (assuming of course that this arrangement continues in 2012)

It made me think that MC has had the Nike money upfront (neither party foreseeing the demise of HTC) and the current negotiations are stuck on whether its him or his new team who need to pay the money back or if it needs paying back at all (HTC disbands and the deal dies with it etc)


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## Tompy (4 Oct 2011)

In the run up to the World Championships Cav signed with the Wasserman Media Group.

They'll be attempting to get as lucrative deal as possible for their client who is arguably the most marketable cyclist in the world at the moment. 
In fact he's the 35th most marketable _sportsman _in the world according to sportspromedia.com

Meanwhile, pro women cyclists don't get even have a minimum wage agreement.


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## User269 (4 Oct 2011)

Ain't it exciting eh?

I can't see how it would work with Sky, who would surely want all their efforts to go into a GC finish. Can they support and lead out a rider for green as well? 

It's complicated apparently, as it says here.


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## Flying_Monkey (4 Oct 2011)

User269 said:


> It's complicated apparently, as it says here.



Yes, that's the article we've been talking about for the last page or so!


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## GGB_Andrew (5 Oct 2011)

Well we know Eisel is following Cav at least


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## GGB_Andrew (5 Oct 2011)

Should we make anything of Danny Pate rocking up to Team Sky from HTC this morning?


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## Flying_Monkey (5 Oct 2011)

GGB_Andrew said:


> Should we make anything of Danny Pate rocking up to Team Sky from HTC this morning?



Not really. He's just a solid, experienced domestique who'll fit well into the TTT set-up. I guess he could form part of a lead-out train too.


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## raindog (5 Oct 2011)

Flying_Monkey said:


> I guess he could form part of a lead-out train too.


That's what I thought when I read it this morning.


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## Keith Oates (5 Oct 2011)

Am I the only one that is getting fed up with this saga? Much as I like Cav and follow him closely when he's racing I think he and his manager are spoiling his image a little with all of the apparent wrangling!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## beastie (6 Oct 2011)

Cav hasn't said anything to the press really, so it is hardly fair to blame him for any of the media speculation.


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## Flying_Monkey (6 Oct 2011)

beastie said:


> Cav hasn't said anything to the press really, so it is hardly fair to blame him for any of the media speculation.



Well, I expect it is actually him (and more likely, his agents) dragging out negotiations. But it makes life more interesting for cycling fans, and I'm certainly not complaining about it!


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## rich p (6 Oct 2011)

I have to agree with Keith here. I find this semi-public negotiating, rumour and press speculation as dull as ditchwater.


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## yello (6 Oct 2011)

Doesn't bother me. I know he'll be somewhere next year and that's when I become interested again. The stuff between now and then is fairground attraction and enjoyable (or not!) in it's own right.


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## Flying_Monkey (6 Oct 2011)

Meanwhile Sky have signed another hard-as-nails super-domestique / addition to TTT squad / lead-out man / GT stage-winner, Kanstantin Sritsov. They are going to have far more depth next year, whether Cav joins them or not. It does also reinforce the impression that David Brailsford's comments about BMC's flashing of the cash were somewhat ironic...


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## rich p (6 Oct 2011)

Most teams sign riders at this time of the year but you can't really compare signing Sivtsov(sic) with Hushovd and Gilbert.


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## tigger (6 Oct 2011)

It is strange that its dragged on this long. I may be way wide of the mark but personally I don't buy into the bike issue theory. I don't think there's any personal contract with Specialised (?) and much as he may like the new Venge I can't see why Pinarello can't make a frame he's happy with. Pro riders change bikes all the time and if the adage is true it aint about the bike. Lets be honest, Cav isn't winning with any bigger margins, in fact they are indeed probably smaller, than when he was riding an Addict. He must appreciate that the Sky and BC relationship with Pinarello is very deep, if he doesn't then he's gone down in my estimations if he is making demands. No... surely thats just press nonsense?

The Nike / Adidas issue I can understand, and thats a very tricky one. But in the hard faced commercial world it can be sorted out. Put up or shut up Adidas would be the essence of the negotiation...


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## raindog (7 Oct 2011)

tigger said:


> The Nike / Adidas issue I can understand, and thats a very tricky one. But in the hard faced commercial world it can be sorted out.


Well, I expect "sorting it out" is exactly what they're doing.


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## Buddfox (11 Oct 2011)

Confirmed now as Sky - interesting!


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## Cheddar George (11 Oct 2011)

So what do we reckon Sky's main objective will be in the grand tours ?


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## dellzeqq (11 Oct 2011)

I'm surprised, although $4m would, I suppose, have most of us signing on. 

I can only assume that Wiggins is pencilled in for something other than the TdF


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## Buddfox (11 Oct 2011)

Cheddar George said:


> So what do we reckon Sky's main objective will be in the grand tours ?



Winning everything?!


----------



## Cheddar George (11 Oct 2011)

Buddfox said:


> Winning everything?!



Yeah, total world domination in proper Rupert Murdoch style


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## Peter88 (11 Oct 2011)

I see Sky have also signed Bernie Eisel.


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## rich p (11 Oct 2011)

It will only be an issue at the TdF and the waters are muddied next year due to the Olympics.


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## lukesdad (11 Oct 2011)

Peter88 said:


> I see Sky have also signed Bernie Eisel.




His babysitter.


----------



## johnr (11 Oct 2011)

This has a lot of comment in it

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/oct/11/team-sky-sign-mark-cavendish


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## gb155 (11 Oct 2011)

I don't like it , hope I'm wrong but can't see it ending well 

Is it just a one year deal ?


----------



## Dayvo (11 Oct 2011)

gb155 said:


> I don't like it , hope I'm wrong but can't see it ending well
> 
> Is it just a one year deal ?




I agree with you, gb155. 

I have a feeling there will some kind of implosion and lots of toy-throwing and name-calling/back-stabbing.


----------



## martint235 (11 Oct 2011)

gb155 said:


> I don't like it , hope I'm wrong but can't see it ending well
> 
> Is it just a one year deal ?



Me too. As I've said all along, I'm just not convinced. I don't blame Cav though, if nothing else the money makes it worth it.

Maybe Wiggins is lined up for the Giro next year so he can hit the Olympics in form but he is on record as saying he wanted to win both the Olympics and the TdF


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## smokeysmoo (11 Oct 2011)

What? Cav, Sky. Well I'll go to the foot of our stairs, never saw that coming


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## moxey (11 Oct 2011)

I'm glad it's finally sorted and the speculation is over. 
Looking forward to seeing how next season is going to pan out.


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## Scoosh (11 Oct 2011)

Wiggins/Froome for TdF GC; Cav for TdF - going for the sprint stages, maybe not the Green jersey and really going for the Olympics ?

..... or is the Green jersey worth more to him (Cav) than the Olympics ?

[bearing in mind that Cav was the only member of the men's track team in Beijing not to come away with a medal]


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## downfader (11 Oct 2011)

Cav is now experienced enough not to need as much team support to the Green jersey. It could still work and I bet Wiggins or Froome get the Yellow.


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## andrew_s (12 Oct 2011)

scoosh said:


> Wiggins/Froome for TdF GC; Cav for TdF - going for the sprint stages, maybe not the Green jersey and really going for the Olympics ?


That's what I see. Cav may not even finish the Tour.


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## Keith Oates (12 Oct 2011)

It will be an interesting year ahead to see what has been planned and what actually transpires. I suspect that Sky would rather go for the Yellow than the Green so that could be interesting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## gb155 (12 Oct 2011)

andrew_s said:


> That's what I see. Cav may not even finish the Tour.



Dont be silly, Cav loves that final stage now and who could blame him ?


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## RecordAceFromNew (12 Oct 2011)

andrew_s said:


> That's what I see. Cav may not even finish the Tour.



Wot the rainbow jersey abandons Tdf voluntarily? Sky throwing £millions at him just for a few initial stages without aiming for the Green and the Grand Finale on Champs-Elysees?

While it may not be a bad strategy to have more than a one string to the bow, Sky will clearly have to assess what is their chance of winning the GC versus the green. The danger is to fall between two stools.

On the other hand, one of the reasons why some teams underperformed this year was because they did not have a train up front and got caught in crashes on flat stages. So may be it is not either or, perhaps being the protected lead out man on flat stages will actually help Wiggo's or Froome's GC ambition? The key question then is whether the rest of the team is strong enough to carry them against the competition.


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## dellzeqq (12 Oct 2011)

I think the green and yellow jersey stuff is hogwash. It's one or the other, and my money is still on green. To get that you need a strong team to chase down escapes, and Eisel is clearly part of that team.


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## Strathlubnaig (12 Oct 2011)

Not a good move imho, too many big heids at sky and will make the uk cycling weekly even worse to read now, already seems sponsored by sky as it is.


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## rich p (12 Oct 2011)

dellzeqq said:


> I think the green and yellow jersey stuff is hogwash. It's one or the other, and my money is still on green. To get that you need a strong team to chase down escapes, and Eisel is clearly part of that team.




I don't think so. The next TdF is probably Sky's best chance of a win, given the parcours and the quality of Wiggins and Froome at the moment.

FWIW, I think that they'll try to go for both with a few of all rounders to help both the GC and the sprint chases with a few climbers.

EBH, GT can do both jobs for instance. 

Once you're in the big hills the assistance that a climber can give to a team leader is limited.


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## trustysteed (12 Oct 2011)

I'd be more worried now about Eurosport losing the TV rights of the Grand Tours to Sky....


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## oldroadman (12 Oct 2011)

All negatives, just unbelieveable! We have one of the top ranked teams in the world, a world champion on it, podium finishes at TdF, green jersey at TdF, and all that happens is people moan and make stupid, uninformed comments about "big heads". No idea....
Wind back 15 years - or more - and there were very few Brits in the pro peloton, not a chance of a proper pro team (forget McCartney and ANC, just chancers and dodgy top people looking for a con/fast buck) in the top level, no champions. Then where we are now. I know quite a few old riders who would have done anything for a chance at that level in a British team.

You can't seem to do right for doing wrong, management simply has to step up to the challenge of what they do with a wealth of talent and ability. And the management of the team - some of whom I know - have ability to do that it spades.


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## Flying_Monkey (12 Oct 2011)

oldroadman said:


> All negatives, just unbelieveable! We have one of the top ranked teams in the world, a world champion on it, podium finishes at TdF, green jersey at TdF, and all that happens is people moan and make stupid, uninformed comments about "big heads". No idea....
> Wind back 15 years - or more - and there were very few Brits in the pro peloton, not a chance of a proper pro team (forget McCartney and ANC, just chancers and dodgy top people looking for a con/fast buck) in the top level, no champions. Then where we are now. I know quite a few old riders who would have done anything for a chance at that level in a British team.
> 
> You can't seem to do right for doing wrong, management simply has to step up to the challenge of what they do with a wealth of talent and ability. And the management of the team - some of whom I know - have ability to do that it spades.



I agree. There's a whole lot of crap being spouted here.


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## alecstilleyedye (12 Oct 2011)

it's a shame that all the people who know how to run a successful cycling team are too busy 'driving cabs and cutting hair'…


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## tigger (12 Oct 2011)

oldroadman said:


> All negatives, just unbelieveable! We have one of the top ranked teams in the world, a world champion on it, podium finishes at TdF, green jersey at TdF, and all that happens is people moan and make stupid, uninformed comments about "big heads". No idea....
> Wind back 15 years - or more - and there were very few Brits in the pro peloton, not a chance of a proper pro team (forget McCartney and ANC, just chancers and dodgy top people looking for a con/fast buck) in the top level, no champions. Then where we are now. I know quite a few old riders who would have done anything for a chance at that level in a British team.
> 
> You can't seem to do right for doing wrong, management simply has to step up to the challenge of what they do with a wealth of talent and ability. And the management of the team - some of whom I know - have ability to do that it spades.



+2


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## Rykard (12 Oct 2011)

tigger said:


> +2


+3


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## rich p (12 Oct 2011)

oldroadman said:


> All negatives, just unbelieveable! We have one of the top ranked teams in the world, a world champion on it, podium finishes at TdF, green jersey at TdF, and all that happens is people moan and make stupid, uninformed comments about "big heads". No idea....
> Wind back 15 years - or more - and there were very few Brits in the pro peloton, not a chance of a proper pro team (forget McCartney and ANC, just chancers and dodgy top people looking for a con/fast buck) in the top level, no champions. Then where we are now. I know quite a few old riders who would have done anything for a chance at that level in a British team.
> 
> You can't seem to do right for doing wrong, management simply has to step up to the challenge of what they do with a wealth of talent and ability. And the management of the team - some of whom I know - have ability to do that it spades.



What a lot of cobblers. A few people saying they didn't think it was a good idea and how difficulties may arise in going for 2 jerseys is just fair debate.

The usual almost name-dropping in your posts and your man-on-the-inside attitude doesn't mean the rest of us have no right to post our opinions.

Get over yourself.


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## martint235 (12 Oct 2011)

rich p said:


> What a lot of cobblers. A few people saying they didn't think it was a good idea and how difficulties may arise in going for 2 jerseys is just fair debate.
> 
> The usual almost name-dropping in your posts and your man-on-the-inside attitude doesn't mean the rest of us have no right to post our opinions.
> 
> Get over yourself.



+1. I didn't think I was being negative, I just stated my opinion that Sky going for two jerseys is going to stretch them.

As for how many Brit riders there are in the peloton compared to the past, yes it is fantastic and I'd like to see them take as many jerseys as possible plus Olympic gold. I just think sticking them all in one team isn't the way to do that.


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## tigger (12 Oct 2011)

rich p said:


> What a lot of cobblers. A few people saying they didn't think it was a good idea and how difficulties may arise in going for 2 jerseys is just fair debate.
> 
> The usual almost name-dropping in your posts and your man-on-the-inside attitude doesn't mean the rest of us have no right to post our opinions.
> 
> Get over yourself.




You're right its a fair debate, but no one knows the answers until much later next year. Its going to be an interesting juggle between green and yellow priorities.

But the fact we have this genuine problem for a British Team is amazing. We have the the best sprinter in the world / world champ / green jersey - fantastic!!! We have good strong GC contenders / stage race winners / tour podium finishers / Time trialers on a route that will suit them - fantastic!!!


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## Rykard (12 Oct 2011)

Team sky just need to make sure their ego management is up to scratch. Notice when he won the WC he couldn't thank the team enough - 'they buried themselves so I had to win it' (for them)... rough paraphrase


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## beastie (12 Oct 2011)

Rykard said:


> Team sky just need to make sure their ego management is up to scratch. Notice when he won the WC he couldn't thank the team enough - 'they buried themselves so I had to win it' (for them)... rough paraphrase



Cav is always at pains to thank his teammates.


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## Flying_Monkey (12 Oct 2011)

beastie said:


> Cav is always at pains to thank his teammates.



Exactly, I think the people who are talking about tantrums and 'throwing toys out of the pram' (which, rich p, is I think what justifiably annoyed oldroadman - who generally knows what he's talking about) are talking about a Cav from some time ago, or of their imagination. He's certainly an emotional guy who wears his heart on his sleeve, but he's also a real team-player and has become very focused and professional in his approach. 

The rest of the team seem to be more than happy that he's arrived and I can't see that there will be any necessary problems - except perhaps for other sprinters on the team. But of those, Hunt and Downing are getting on and are no competition as top sprinter, and young Apollonio and Swift might complain a bit, but it they are sensible they will realise that they can only benefit from learning from Cav. 

Whether Sky can operate an effective dual strategy in one or all GTs remains to be seen, but it's great to see teams with ambition who are prepared to try this. I think Omega-Quickstep and BMC will also be thinking along the same lines next season. It is also important to remember that that Cav is a proven monument winner and could certainly be supported to wins in other classics suited to his strengths - as the World Cup demonstrated so recently.


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## Cheddar George (12 Oct 2011)

Chris Boardman sums it up nicely in my opinion.

Chris Boardman


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## Strathlubnaig (12 Oct 2011)

trustysteed said:


> I'd be more worried now about Eurosport losing the TV rights of the Grand Tours to Sky....



That's a good point, and would be a fairly typical move by Sky generally, but hopefully that only applies to to the UK and we will not suffer from such antics, with the TdF being a very popular event in Europe. It would be very sad to see though.


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## Willo (12 Oct 2011)

Strathlubnaig said:


> That's a good point, and would be a fairly typical move by Sky generally, but hopefully that only applies to to the UK and we will not suffer from such antics, with the TdF being a very popular event in Europe. It would be very sad to see though.



Agreed, I've been thinking it's only a matter of time......

More generally, whatever the views on Cavendish joining Sky, the fact that the debate is being had is something that would've been difficult to imagine a few years back. Certainly a contrast the the ANC Halfords story in 1987 (as told in Wide Eyed and Legless, which is an enjoyable read).


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## steephill (12 Oct 2011)

Where's Edvald BH going to be next season?


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## lukesdad (12 Oct 2011)

dellzeqq said:


> I think the green and yellow jersey stuff is hogwash. It's one or the other, and my money is still on green. To get that you need a strong team to chase down escapes, and Eisel is clearly part of that team.




Not often I agree with you, but this time I think you may be spot on. Eisel was Cav s biggest asset at HTC forget Goss and Renshaw Bernie called the shots. In Sky s development as a team he s probably a better signing than Cav Himself. In the last 2 years its what they ve been missing a proper road captain. The worlds proved the point when Millar stepped in to do the job.

As for Wiggo. This year was his best shot at the grand tours IMO, and Froome whilst putting up a great ride in the Vuelta against it has to be said div 2 GC contenders, is still probably a year or 2 off a serious challenge in the Giro or TDF.

I think Cav signing has signaled exactly where their intentions lie, and Wiggins is going to have to lump it. He wont be happy but then he s had his chance.

Make no mistake about it Cav will want Olympic Gold and a whole nation expects !


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## gb155 (12 Oct 2011)

rich p said:


> What a lot of cobblers. A few people saying they didn't think it was a good idea and how difficulties may arise in going for 2 jerseys is just fair debate.
> 
> The usual almost name-dropping in your posts and your man-on-the-inside attitude doesn't mean the rest of us have no right to post our opinions.
> 
> Get over yourself.



Rich

Im scared, I agree with EVERYTHING You just said


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## pawl (12 Oct 2011)

So now we know its Sky.Hope they havnt got there head in the clouds.


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## rich p (12 Oct 2011)

gb155 said:


> Rich
> 
> Im scared, I agree with EVERYTHING You just said




scary indeed! A first!


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## raindog (13 Oct 2011)

Well thought out opinion piece on the dilemma Sky may or may not face next year


http://www.cyclingnews.com/features...e-wiggins-and-cavendish-at-the-tour-de-france


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## Flying_Monkey (13 Oct 2011)

steephill said:


> Where's Edvald BH going to be next season?



No sign he's not staying at Sky. His mentor, Arvesen, is now a directeur sportif, and ironically, Cav arriving might actually free him up to be the great all-round rider he really can be, rather than a make-shift first choice sprinter (albeit a much better than average one!).


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## Flying_Monkey (13 Oct 2011)

raindog said:


> Well thought out opinion piece on the dilemma Sky may or may not face next year
> 
> http://www.cyclingne...-tour-de-france



That's the best piece I've read so far on this. The last paragraph is a key one - 

"melding Cavendish and Wiggins into the same team could be a breeze compared to the task other squads face. Over at BMC, John Lelangue has to work out how to achieve a successful Tour formula that accommodates Cadel Evans, Philippe Gilbert and Thor Hushovd."

There is going to be a lot of change in the peloton next year. There will be no single dominant sprint team, which means sprints may be more open and even an organised mini-train of the kind Sky have generally been operating in the past year, while it may have looked second-rate compared to HTC's single-minded effort, will now be relatively strong and experienced, especially with Eisel captaining it and Cavendish as the final man.


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## lukesdad (13 Oct 2011)

Flying_Monkey said:


> That's the best piece I've read so far on this. The last paragraph is a key one -
> 
> "melding Cavendish and Wiggins into the same team could be a breeze compared to the task other squads face. Over at BMC, John Lelangue has to work out how to achieve a successful Tour formula that accommodates Cadel Evans, Philippe Gilbert and Thor Hushovd."
> 
> There is going to be a lot of change in the peloton next year. There will be no single dominant sprint team, which means sprints may be more open and even an organised mini-train of the kind Sky have generally been operating in the past year, while it may have looked second-rate compared to HTC's single-minded effort, will now be relatively strong and experienced, especially with Eisel captaining it and Cavendish as the final man.




Youve missed one significant point , who is going to chase down the breakaways ? Tommy, Luis Leon and Johnny are are going to have a field day !


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## Fletch456 (13 Oct 2011)

"One thing is obvious, if they believe that Wiggins can go for yellow they can’t compromise and give Cavendish four guys for the sprints..." Rolf Aldag

Do they need four?

Ordinarily I would have said that I personally don't see Cav and Wiggo being in the same team in 12mths time but with so many team changes lets see. One is leader by his GC capabilities, the other by personality (more gravitas in my book, Wiggo much more introvert but Wiggo more established but ..we can go on); in a race both have quite different requirements.

Following on from the posts immediately above it's going to be a different year with all the changes and probably no singly dominant sprint team.


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## raindog (13 Oct 2011)

lukesdad said:


> Youve missed one significant point , who is going to chase down the breakaways ?


Any team comprising a decent sprinter will combine efforts of a couple riders up front to chase down breaks - that's how it used to work.


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## lukesdad (13 Oct 2011)

raindog said:


> Any team comprising a decent sprinter will combine efforts of a couple riders up front to chase down breaks - that's how it used to work.




Of course that will all depend on who is in the breaks. A savvy team with a sprinter will get a man in the break.


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## rich p (13 Oct 2011)

lukesdad said:


> Of course that will all depend on who is in the breaks. A savvy team with a sprinter will get a man in the break.




Sky have rarely had a man in the break for some reason.


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## Flying_Monkey (13 Oct 2011)

rich p said:


> Sky have rarely had a man in the break for some reason.



Because breakaways have almost always been brought back this season and Sky were one of the better teams at contributing to this. However, I agree that's one thing Sky, and BMC, Omega-Quickstep, Nissan-Radioshack and the other top teams, will have to make calculations about - and probably they will have to have both a 'breakaway man' (fro Sky, Flecha and EBH can both ride this way) and the retain the team power to chase the most significant breaks down if all the others decide not too.


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## RecordAceFromNew (13 Oct 2011)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Because breakaways have almost always been brought back this season and Sky *HTC* were one of the better *dominant* teams at contributing to this.


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## lukesdad (13 Oct 2011)

Exactly without the dominance of HTC. We might see a greater selection from the peleton chancing their arm at the breakaway. Could end up with stages resembling the classics every day. Im all for it.


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## lukesdad (13 Oct 2011)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Because breakaways have almost always been brought back this season and Sky were one of the better teams at contributing to this. However, I agree that's one thing Sky, and BMC, Omega-Quickstep, Nissan-Radioshack and the other top teams, will have to make calculations about - and probably they will have to have both a 'breakaway man' (fro Sky, Flecha and EBH can both ride this way) and the retain the team power to chase the most significant breaks down if all the others decide not too.




Did you not see the TDF this year ? there were multiple wins from the break, and sky were in the infamous hoogerland flecha debacle which voeckler took the race lead from.


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## Flying_Monkey (13 Oct 2011)

lukesdad said:


> Did you not see the TDF this year ? there were multiple wins from the break, and sky were in the infamous hoogerland flecha debacle which voeckler took the race lead from.



It may seem like it for fairweather fans, but the TdF is not the only race of the year.


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## raindog (13 Oct 2011)

Breaks were still chased down pre-HTC.


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## lukesdad (13 Oct 2011)

raindog said:


> Breaks were still chased down pre-HTC.




Of course they were, but usually by the dominate sprinters team, are Sky going to be prepared to do this day in day out. 

Look at the worlds, they know how strong Cav is and there were not many willing helpers then.


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## montage (14 Oct 2011)

A hard task...but then look at the riders...very hard men.

Wiggins, Froome, G, Eisel, Cav, EBH, Porte, Uran. That leaves a space for another (I would guess) all rounder ... and has some serious firepower for the time trials and on the flats. Going to be some tired legs by Paris though!


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## BJH (14 Oct 2011)

Pro cycling seems to be moving in the direction of a smaller number of super teams. Time will tell whether thats a good idea, look at football and for most fans, it seems to depend on whether your team is one of those super teams with billionaire backers as to whether you think it's a good idea.

With mergers and bigger money coming in they all want success. I don't really see the big issue about which jersey Sky will aim for with Cav on board. If Sky didn't sign him others would have been straight in for him.

I think it's great that one of these emerging super teams is British - despite my hatred for the Dirty Digger.

Whether Sky go for Green or Yellow, TDF over Olympics, or bikes made in Italy or the US doesn't matter to me. It's just great to see British riders at the highest level of the sport providing the impact to drag more people out on their bikes and more kids to follow in their tracks.

Either way, it's given us the Green jersey, 2 places on the podium at the Vuelta and THE WORLD CHAMPION.


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## dellzeqq (14 Oct 2011)

lukesdad said:


> Youve missed one significant point , who is going to chase down the breakaways ? Tommy, Luis Leon and Johnny are are going to have a field day !


that's my thought. And here, in Sky's hubris, we might see something of a novelty - a Tour taken apart by an individual.


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## Flying_Monkey (14 Oct 2011)

BJH said:


> Pro cycling seems to be moving in the direction of a smaller number of super teams. Time will tell whether thats a good idea, look at football and for most fans, it seems to depend on whether your team is one of those super teams with billionaire backers as to whether you think it's a good idea.



Yeah, it's the price of success. The irony is that we all want cycling (or whatever sport we love) to be more popular, but when it gets more popular it becomes more attractive to less savoury interests, who have no real love for the sport and just want to make money...


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## beastie (14 Oct 2011)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Yeah, it's the price of success. The irony is that we all want cycling (or whatever sport we love) to be more popular, but when it gets more popular it becomes more attractive to less savoury interests, who have no real love for the sport and just want to make money...


Do you mean like back in the eighties with people like Bernard Tapie, or the nineties, when everyone was juiced on Epo?


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## RecordAceFromNew (14 Oct 2011)

Is more/bigger money coming into pro racing? Are super teams really the price of success? If true how come the most successful pro team on the planet is disbanding due to lack of sponsorship?


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## Flying_Monkey (14 Oct 2011)

RecordAceFromNew said:


> Is more/bigger money coming into pro racing? Are super teams really the price of success? If true how come the most successful pro team on the planet is disbanding due to lack of sponsorship?



It's more successful in different places, less in others. The post-Lance US scene is not so great, especially in a recession, so it's no surprise to see US teams struggling for sponsorship, but the UK scene is flourishing, and cycling is picking up from almost nothing in other places. It's also recovering popularity in France after some difficult times.


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## Noodley (14 Oct 2011)

I am looking forward to seeing Sky team


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## Leilei (15 Oct 2011)

It will be interesting to see how they progress during the next season.


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## lukesdad (15 Oct 2011)

Noodley said:


> I am looking forward to seeing Sky team




No ! Noods don t put them in your road team. Please.


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## Monsieur Remings (17 Oct 2011)

beastie said:


> Do you mean like back in the eighties with people like Bernard Tapie, or the nineties, when everyone was juiced on Epo?



I won't speak for FM but I don't think he does mean that. EPO, doping etc is part of the history of the TDF, sadly. Whereas here, the TDF takes a sporting sideline, in France it was, and still is massive; the Giro too to the Italians. There is no 'progression' from the seedy 80s or 90s other than the attitude of the professional peloton regarding doping and this, I believe, has nothing to do with money or sponsorship.

I agree that we do all want the profile of cycling to increase, ironically as FM implies, interesting the unsavoury investors and sponsors and becoming as with football, another tool for making money.

BUT... it didn't help HTC. If a premiership footballer so much as farts in the box then he's signed at extortionate, over and above his worth rates, and yet with HTC the world of cycling was graced with a sprint train that, in time, I believe, will be considered truly legendary. But lack of sponsorship killed it.

Still not sure if Cav and Sky will work to the same level of success, and if _they _do, then it might mark the beginning of the end for any aspiring British yellow in Sky colours. Just my own opinion. Perhaps I will be proved wrong, but Sky have a long way to go before they are any sort of superteam IMO.


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## Tompy (17 Oct 2011)

Sky ended the seson ranked #2 in the UCI team rankings and looking at who they've signed for next season I'd say they haven't got that far to go, in sporting terms.

In financial terms, they are one of the super teams already.


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## Monsieur Remings (17 Oct 2011)

Tompy said:


> Sky ended the seson ranked #2 in the UCI team rankings and looking at who they've signed for next season I'd say they haven't got that far to go, in sporting terms.
> 
> In financial terms, they are one of the super teams already.



Sure financially they are, but the first bit you mention is the point about next year.

I know it's been discussed ad nauseum, but can't see how one team can fervently go for both jerseys? Perhaps I am wrong, but history tells us that that has only happened with individual riders of exceptional brilliance winning both jerseys and not a combined team effort involving two separate riders winning different jerseys from the same team? Or has it?

Maybe I'm wrong, I might well be.


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## Keith Oates (18 Oct 2011)

All we can do now MR, is wait and see what Sky are targeting and how they arrange the team. The fact that it is an Olympic year could well influence their plannning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Tompy (18 Oct 2011)

Monsieur Remings said:


> Sure financially they are, but the first bit you mention is the point about next year.
> 
> I know it's been discussed ad nauseum, but can't see how one team can fervently go for both jerseys? Perhaps I am wrong, but history tells us that that has only happened with individual riders of exceptional brilliance winning both jerseys and not a combined team effort involving two separate riders winning different jerseys from the same team? Or has it?
> 
> Maybe I'm wrong, I might well be.



BMC have Evans, Hushovd and Gilbert to fit in to their plans but that's not preventing the superteam label being given to them.

Not many teams have genuine GC contenders for the Tour and next year there will be a lot of young sprinters like Sagan, Kittel, and Goss as well as the likes of Renshaw and Greipel who will really fancy their chances against Cav. I believe their teams will chase down breaks more readily as a result. This _could_ mean that Team Sky will not have to work as hard as HTC-Highroad had to to ensure a bunch sprint. 

If they do have to chase down breaks there's not a lot wrong with the theory that it would help the GC man to stay out of trouble if he sat on the back of his team mates while they chase down at the head of the peloton. HTC-Highroad used to use only a couple of riders for the last 40km or so - usually guys like Bert Grabsch, Lars Bak and Danny Pate - and the famous train would only appear inside the last 10km. Team Sky could adopt similar tactics and while they would have fewer riders available in that last 5km, my view is that Cav is smart enough to maintain position with only say two or three guys with him at that point.

Then again, I might well be wrong too.


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## Flying_Monkey (18 Oct 2011)

Tompy said:


> Not many teams have genuine GC contenders for the Tour and next year there will be a lot of young sprinters like Sagan, Kittel, and Goss as well as the likes of Renshaw and Greipel who will really fancy their chances against Cav. I believe their teams will chase down breaks more readily as a result. This _could_ mean that Team Sky will not have to work as hard as HTC-Highroad had to to ensure a bunch sprint.



You could be right. But one of the great things about cycle racing is that almost anything could happen, and certainly most tactics will be tried on more than one occasion. The one thing is that, with more than one 'super-team' around the wider peloton will not be able to concentrate on just closing down one team or one type of threat.


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## RecordAceFromNew (18 Oct 2011)

Monsieur Remings said:


> yet with HTC the world of cycling was graced with a sprint train that, in time, I believe, will be considered truly legendary.



+1. The brilliance of htc was that while everybody else on the peleton knew what their objective, strategy, tactic, and vehicle were, but they were so out-gunned that nobody could do a thing about it!


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## Tompy (18 Oct 2011)

RecordAceFromNew said:


> +1. The brilliance of htc was that while everybody else on the peleton knew what their objective, strategy, tactic, and vehicle were, but they were so out-gunned that nobody could do a thing about it!



Or from a different POV... "We'll save our legs and let HTC bring the break back. Then you [sprinter guy] can sit on Cav's wheel."

Don't get me wrong, there were occasions when the HTC train was brilliant but I think on many occasions they were just left to it.

Cycling is far from being "chess on wheels" as it's commonly called, race tactics are pretty limited and predictable. Witness how easily the rest of the world stuck to the script while GB bossed the recent Worlds.


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## lukesdad (18 Oct 2011)

Don t know about these sprinters fancying their chances against Cav. but they sure as hell will from a break. Herein lies sky s problem.


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## RecordAceFromNew (18 Oct 2011)

Tompy said:


> Cycling is far from being "chess on wheels" as it's commonly called, race tactics are pretty limited and predictable. Witness how easily the rest of the world stuck to the script while *GB bossed the recent Worlds.*



If only.

Guys I don't know about you all, but I couldn't help but winced when Uncle Fester said "I've never seen a team dominate from start to finish as the British did today" after Cav collected the rainbow jersey - the team did not dominate the critical last km or so, unlike how htc regularly did in a much stronger competitive environment, and in fact because of that the result was nearly fatal.

I think a classic example is the Gorilla. The man is clearly a strong sprinter, and while perhaps not quite as good can certainly give Cav a very good run for his money most days, but I think he usually lose it because of his poor positioning at the last couple of hundred meters, usually having to play heroic catch up's, and that was because he did not have the chess pieces to back him up. 

Ok perhaps no sprinter will have such next season, but one makes one's luck, in my view.


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## Monsieur Remings (18 Oct 2011)

Tompy said:


> Or from a different POV... *"We'll save our legs and let HTC bring the break back. Then you [sprinter guy] can sit on Cav's wheel."
> 
> Don't get me wrong, there were occasions when the HTC train was brilliant but I think on many occasions they were just left to it.
> 
> *Cycling is far from being "chess on wheels" as it's commonly called, race tactics are pretty limited and predictable. Witness how easily the rest of the world stuck to the script while GB bossed the recent Worlds.



I think this bit is RAFN's point entirely, in that everyone knew their (HTC's) game but still they came out tops with a winner (Cav) on the bunch sprint finish. The others may well have saved their legs, but it didn't get them the stage win.

However, I do appreciate what you're saying Tompy, perhaps those up and coming teams with sprinters who want to have a go at playing the Cavendish next year, will mean that it is in the interest of more than one team to chase down the breakaway thus sharing the burden.


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## Monsieur Remings (18 Oct 2011)

Keith Oates said:


> All we can do now MR, is wait and see what Sky are targeting and how they arrange the team. The fact that it is an Olympic year could well influence their plannning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Yes Keith, you're right of course. My opinions are very much centred around the Grand Tours and yet the Olympics are bound to influence the team.


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## Tompy (19 Oct 2011)

RecordAceFromNew said:


> If only.
> 
> Guys I don't know about you all, but I couldn't help but winced when Uncle Fester said "I've never seen a team dominate from start to finish as the British did today" after Cav collected the rainbow jersey - the team did not dominate the critical last km or so, unlike how htc regularly did in a much stronger competitive environment, and in fact because of that the result was nearly fatal.



Name me any stage/race where HTC were on the front for over 240km and still had a lead-out train for a sprint finish? You'll struggle because in the last three editions of the TDF the longest stages have never exceeded 230km (the worlds course was 266km).

According to Rod Ellingworth (BC/Sky and Cav's race coach, who masterminded Project Rainbow Jersey) everything went to plan:



> The initial plan to get Cavendish into the final corner in third place was changed in the weeks leading up to the race. Cavendish said he wanted to get round the corner in about eighth or 10th and come from a deeper position rather than take it on too early."If he didn't have any team-mates left for the last kilometre, so be it," says Ellingworth. "The job was to get him to that corner in eighth or 10th.
> 
> "We prepared him for a scrap. Sometimes in the Grand Tours, he gets uptight if a non-sprinter gets in the way, so we worked on that. I said this is the World Championships, everyone in that group is going to have a go and they have every right to have a go. So if a rider bumps you, don't have a go, it's just wasted energy."


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## RecordAceFromNew (19 Oct 2011)

Tompy said:


> Name me any stage/race where HTC were on the front for over 240km and still had a lead-out train for a sprint finish? You'll struggle because in the last three editions of the TDF the longest stages have never exceeded 230km (the worlds course was 266km).



Since you are talking about endurance here, I am not sure how the distance difference is meaningful given the Worlds is only a one day race.



> The initial plan to get Cavendish into the final corner in third place was changed in the weeks leading up to the race. Cavendish said he wanted to get round the corner in about eighth or 10th and come from a deeper position rather than take it on too early."If he didn't have any team-mates left for the last kilometre, so be it," says Ellingworth. "The job was to get him to that corner in eighth or 10th.
> 
> "We prepared him for a scrap. Sometimes in the Grand Tours, he gets uptight if a non-sprinter gets in the way, so we worked on that. I said this is the World Championships, everyone in that group is going to have a go and they have every right to have a go. So if a rider bumps you, don't have a go, it's just wasted energy."



I would have thought one of the reasons it pays to dominate from start to finish is one stands less chance getting bumped, blocked or caught in accidents.

In any case, Ellingworth's prediction did pan out in that the team was not deep/coordinated enough to dominate from start to finish (as Uncle Fester alleged it did).


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## dellzeqq (19 Oct 2011)

the reason the other teams didn't chase down escapes is because they had no confidence in their sprinters. At the moment Cavendish is simply the best. Whether he stays the best is another matter, but HTC's riders rode their hearts out because they had a very decent prospect of a win. I simply don't think that Brailsford can offer the Sky riders the same sort of incentive if half their efforts devoted to a vain attempt to lift Wiggins on to the podium.


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## Flying_Monkey (19 Oct 2011)

dellzeqq said:


> the reason the other teams didn't chase down escapes is because they had no confidence in their sprinters. At the moment Cavendish is simply the best. Whether he stays the best is another matter, but HTC's riders rode their hearts out because they had a very decent prospect of a win. I simply don't think that Brailsford can offer the Sky riders the same sort of incentive if half their efforts devoted to a vain attempt to lift Wiggins on to the podium.



One other thing to consider here is that it does seem to be the subtext that next year is Brad's 'last best chance'. Another is that the TdF is only one of many things that any team rides for in the year. It's clear that there is a strong chance for Sky to win the World Tour team classification, and that will matter as much in motivating riders.


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## montage (21 Oct 2011)

Sky would have been grateful for Cav this year.


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## Noodley (22 Oct 2011)

I see Cav is gonna become Daddy Cav within a few months.


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## woohoo (22 Oct 2011)

Noodley said:


> I see Cav is gonna become Daddy Cav within a few months.


Could be related to this http://www.cyclechat...age-10-spoiler/

See *dellzeqq*'s comment



> quite. But maybe he's been overdoing it
> 
> *Peta Todd* @petatodd: "Morning all, left my boy@MarkCavendish asleep in bed as I headed off for the airport. Have to go backfor work & APPARENTLY he has a race."


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## lukesdad (23 Oct 2011)

montage said:


> Sky would have been grateful for Cav this year.




and Eisel


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## Flying_Monkey (24 Oct 2011)

Seems Thor agrees with me about EBH - he isn't primarily a sprinter and should concentrate on being an all-rounder. I think he will be able to now with Cav as the main sprinter.


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## smokeysmoo (24 Oct 2011)

Mothercare


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## Doseone (26 Oct 2011)

Sorry, being lazy here - I haven't gone through all 17 pages of this thread and maybe the answer lies within....
.....but does anyone know what actually happened in the latter stages of HTC's demise? Reading Matt Bremmeier's column in Pro-Cycling he seems to indicate that new sponsors were found (he was even offered a new 2 year deal) and it only fell apart at the very last minute. I wonder who the proposed sponsors were and why they pulled the plug?


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## Andy84 (27 Oct 2011)

Doseone said:


> Sorry, being lazy here - I haven't gone through all 17 pages of this thread and maybe the answer lies within....
> .....but does anyone know what actually happened in the latter stages of HTC's demise? Reading Matt Bremmeier's column in Pro-Cycling he seems to indicate that new sponsors were found (he was even offered a new 2 year deal) and it only fell apart at the very last minute. I wonder who the proposed sponsors were and why they pulled the plug?



I don't "know", but I did wonder if whoever the potential sponsors were, their offer was based on Cav still being at HTC, I think Cav's known for a long time, that he would be at Sky next year.


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## Keith Oates (27 Oct 2011)

I'm not sure but I seem to remember that HTC initially said they would extend their sponsorship and then in they end 'pulled the plug', I don't recall any other sponsor being named.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Flying_Monkey (28 Oct 2011)

Well, unsurprisingly, Greg Henderson has left Sky. He wasn't ever really more than a stop-gap sprinter and was never going to find many opportunities with Cav arriving, CJ Sutton getting better all the time, and then Swift and Apollonio catching up fast.


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## Monsieur Remings (9 Nov 2011)

Monsieur Remings said:


> Sure financially they are, but the first bit you mention is the point about next year.
> 
> I know it's been discussed ad nauseum, but can't see how one team can fervently go for both jerseys? Perhaps I am wrong, but history tells us that that has only happened with individual riders of exceptional brilliance winning both jerseys *and not a combined team effort involving two separate riders winning different jerseys from the same team? Or has it?
> 
> *Maybe I'm wrong, I might well be.



And I am wrong, sort of. In 1997 the Telekom team won both the general classification (Jan Ullrich) and the points classification (Erik Zabel).

But Sky won't be blood doping.


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