# Bombproof Wheels



## twitchboy (1 Jan 2015)

Sick of having to get my singlespeeds wheels trued every couple of months. Yes, they are cheap and I do ride quite roughly etc which means that there is more impact than cheap wheels/spokes should realistically be able to withstand. 

Are there any reasonable priced wheels out there known for being able to withstand a lot of impact without having the spokes routinely turn into rattling wires?


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## Spoked Wheels (2 Jan 2015)

twitchboy said:


> Sick of having to get my singlespeeds wheels trued every couple of months. Yes, they are cheap and I do ride quite roughly etc which means that there is more impact than cheap wheels/spokes should realistically be able to withstand.
> 
> Are there any reasonable priced wheels out there known for being able to withstand a lot of impact without having the spokes routinely turn into rattling wires?



What wheels re you riding ( how many spokes) and how heavy are you?

You should be able to ride a good set of wheels hard but if you tend to ride at some speed over potholes you should expect that sooner or later you will damage the wheels. Now, if you mean, hard sprinting and hard braking, by hard riding then that is reasonable usage and your wheels should be able to cope without any problems.


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## twitchboy (2 Jan 2015)

It's this bike. Very cheap but a decent bike for occasional use. The only problem is I tend to ride it like a BMX which is probably not a good idea because the spokes just turn to rattling bits of metal. I want to put better wheels on it if possible. Perhaps even MTB wheels? http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/vitus-bikes-vee-1-city-bike-2014/rp-prod80999

Oh by the way, I'm 16 stone which I'm fairly sure is a big factor also.


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## Spoked Wheels (2 Jan 2015)

The problem with cheap factory wheels is that they use cheap components and they build them with low tension so when you ride them hard the spokes go loose. 

A good pair of wheels will go a long way to solve your problem I think. You don't have to spend too much money but it will be quite a lot if you consider the bike is only worth just over two £200. Go handbuilt if you can.


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## dan_bo (2 Jan 2015)

Get some velocity deep v rims handbuilt.


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## Andrew_Culture (2 Jan 2015)

I've had Mavic Aksium on my SingleSpeed for a few years, they're apparently universally agreed to be bombproof and can't be picked up for chuff all second hand.


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## MontyVeda (2 Jan 2015)

get some hand built by Spa Cycles or any wheel builder these friendly forum types recommend. Mine are still as solid now as they were two years ago when purchased... the only downside of Spa Cycles is one of the guys will try to tell you what he thinks you want rather than what you think you want, and can get a tad shirty if you don't take his advice... but they do build a cracking wheel


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## twitchboy (2 Jan 2015)

Spoked Wheels said:


> A good pair of wheels will go a long way to solve your problem I think. You don't have to spend too much money but it will be quite a lot if you consider the bike is only worth just over two £200. Go handbuilt if you can.



Yes but I haven't got a clue how to identify a good pair of wheels. The bike only cost just over £200 but I'd pay the same again to have a good set of wheels on it that are much more robust. I actually really love the frame of the bike. It's a perfect fit for me, it's light and great for zipping around town. It's just that the wheels are pants. I might just look into Spa Cycles. I've dealt with them before and found them helpful.


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## twitchboy (2 Jan 2015)

Andrew_Culture said:


> I've had Mavic Aksium on my SingleSpeed for a few years, they're apparently universally agreed to be bombproof and can't be picked up for chuff all second hand.



Which Mavics do you have?


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## twitchboy (2 Jan 2015)

http://www.spacycles.co.uk/products.php?plid=m2b0s200p0

What exactly makes the most expensive one better than the least expensive? Is it the hub? The amount or quality of the spokes?


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## Andrew_Culture (2 Jan 2015)

twitchboy said:


> Which Mavics do you have?



I'm fairly sure I have Askium Race, I can't be 100% sure as someone gave them to me once they had done with them! My commute was public footpaths, towpaths and industrial estates and they're still perfectly true.


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## Spoked Wheels (2 Jan 2015)

twitchboy said:


> Yes but I haven't got a clue how to identify a good pair of wheels. The bike only cost just over £200 but I'd pay the same again to have a good set of wheels on it that are much more robust. I actually really love the frame of the bike. It's a perfect fit for me, it's light and great for zipping around town. It's just that the wheels are pants. I might just look into Spa Cycles. I've dealt with them before and found them helpful.



I'm not crazy about building wheels for people that have been members for 5 minutes but it seems you've already been a member for at least 10  send me a PM if you like.



Andrew_Culture said:


> I've had Mavic Aksium on my SingleSpeed for a few years, they're apparently universally agreed to be bombproof and can't be picked up for chuff all second hand.



A couple of points, the OP has 26" wheels.

You can't be serious about the Aksium being bombproof, right? I once had a set and I have been asked to repair another two sets. They are far from being bombproof.


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## Andrew_Culture (3 Jan 2015)

Spoked Wheels said:


> I'm not crazy about building wheels for people that have been members for 5 minutes but it seems you've already been a member for at least 10  send me a PM if you like.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I may have to start appending all my posts with a statement about subjectivity


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## MontyVeda (3 Jan 2015)

twitchboy said:


> http://www.spacycles.co.uk/products.php?plid=m2b0s200p0
> 
> What exactly makes the most expensive one better than the least expensive? Is it the hub? The amount or quality of the spokes?


they can built with an inexpensive rim and an inexpensive hub, or if you prefer, build with expensive rims and expensive hubs, resulting in a more expensive wheel. 

All i wanted was black rims with a bit of a tear drop profile and black hubs. They were replacing a pair of nigh on 20 year old Rigida rims, and impressed with the longevity of said rims, I got the cheapest Rigida rims that I liked the look of and a cheap black hub to match. Total cost, £160 for the pair. I think the cost of two rims and two hubs and a big handful of spokes came to about £130, so the build itself isn't expensive at all... but when it comes to a wheel, I reckon the quality of build is more important than the parts.


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## Spoked Wheels (3 Jan 2015)

Andrew_Culture said:


> I may have to start appending all my posts with a statement about subjectivity



I agree 

Aksium wheels are an interesting marketing case that appeals to many people, they come with tyres and tubes already mounted at an affordable price and they don't look too bad. They aren't designed for commuting or hard riding, in fact, I wouldn't classify any 20 spokes rear wheel in the bombproof category.


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## Andrew_Culture (3 Jan 2015)

Spoked Wheels said:


> I agree
> 
> Aksium wheels are an interesting marketing case that appeals to many people, they come with tyres and tubes already mounted at an affordable price and they don't look too bad. They aren't designed for commuting or hard riding, in fact, I wouldn't classify any 20 spokes rear wheel in the bombproof category.


But for free... What a deal


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## Spoked Wheels (3 Jan 2015)

MontyVeda said:


> get some hand built by Spa Cycles or any wheel builder these friendly forum types recommend. Mine are still as solid now as they were two years ago when purchased... the only downside of Spa Cycles is one of the guys will try to tell you what he thinks you want rather than what you think you want, and can get a tad shirty if you don't take his advice... but they do build a cracking wheel



I have seen / checked wheels built by Spa Cycles and they looked OK to me. No flaws that I could see.

I'm guessing here so don't throw your laptop at me  or whatever device you use to write your posts. I'm thinking if I worked for Spa Cycles building wheels and somebody comes with an ideas of components for a wheel build and I consider they are not strong enough for the rider or perhaps the rim / hub combination don't add up to a good wheel or the choice of spokes, etc. I'd have to build the wheels..... maybe not happy about it so it's understandable they can get a bit funny. An independent wheel builder might refuse to build the wheels, end of story.


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## Spoked Wheels (3 Jan 2015)

Andrew_Culture said:


> But for free... What a deal



Well you say that, but that depends on the intended usage. Somebody requiring a set of wheels for a commute might have to go through several sets of Aksiums while somebody that got proper commuting wheels might have to buy tyres only. I don't commute but the people that come to me asking for wheels that are not going to be constantly failing make me think that is a high priority.

Horses for courses.... if you need a set of wheels for a ride around the park then you don't need anything that is bombproof


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## Spoked Wheels (3 Jan 2015)

User said:


> They have a thing about building rear wheels double butted non drive side and plain guage drive side.


Ohh that, yes I noticed that . They aren't the only wheel builders still doing it. Old school


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## rb58 (3 Jan 2015)

Spoked Wheels said:


> .....in fact, I wouldn't classify any 20 spokes rear wheel in the bombproof category.


I'm not the lightest of riders and my Mavic Kysrium Elites (18 spoke front, 20 rear) are as true today as when I bought them - probably 7,000 miles ago. I'd classify them as bomb-proof - more so than the 36 spoke hand builts I got from a reputable wheel builder that needed to be re-tensioned and trued with less than 1,000 miles on the clock. They weren't as expensive as the Mavics, but neither were they budget wheels (XT hubs, Exal rims).


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## Andrew_Culture (3 Jan 2015)

Spoked Wheels said:


> Well you say that, but that depends on the intended usage. Somebody requiring a set of wheels for a commute might have to go through several sets of Aksiums while somebody that got proper commuting wheels might have to buy tyres only. I don't commute but the people that come to me asking for wheels that are not going to be constantly failing make me think that is a high priority.
> 
> Horses for courses.... if you need a set of wheels for a ride around the park then you don't need anything that is bombproof



I really have no idea why I feel the need to defend these wheels, and I do bow to your superior knowledge, but after a few thousand miles my wheels are fine and dandy, although the braking surface is pretty well worn


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## Spoked Wheels (3 Jan 2015)

Andrew_Culture said:


> I really have no idea why I feel the need to defend these wheels, and I do bow to your superior knowledge, but after a few thousand miles my wheels are fine and dandy, although the braking surface is pretty well worn



Please don't feel like I'm attacking you  if the wheels are fine for you then that is fine. My point was about that I don't think such wheels would be suitable for somebody that likes riding hard, besides, these are road wheels and the PO is after 26" wheels, he would trash the Aksium pretty fast I'd think 



rb58 said:


> I'm not the lightest of riders and my Mavic Kysrium Elites (18 spoke front, 20 rear) are as true today as when I bought them - probably 7,000 miles ago. I'd classify them as bomb-proof - more so than the 36 spoke hand builts I got from a reputable wheel builder that needed to be re-tensioned and trued with less than 1,000 miles on the clock. They weren't as expensive as the Mavics, but neither were they budget wheels (XT hubs, Exal rims).



Yes, I know the wheels, Mavic Kysrium Elites and although they are far superior quality than the Aksiums and with the thickness of the spokes at lest twice that of the Aksiums. 7000 miles is impressive but we don't know under what conditions. Let's say that I've inspected Mavic Kysrium Elites with just over 3000 miles of reasonable hard riding and also Mavic Kysrium Elites ridden by 17st rider and both cases the signs were not good.

1000 miles from a handbuilt wheel, before needing re truing is not a good sign but without more information I cannot comment.


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## Andrew_Culture (3 Jan 2015)

They are cheap!

No offence taken


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## Sharky (3 Jan 2015)

Andrew_Culture said:


> I've had Mavic Aksium on my SingleSpeed for a few years, they're apparently universally agreed to be bombproof and can't be picked up for chuff all second hand.


 
Bombproof they might be, but prone to the odd squeak after somersaulting over a Vauxhall Corsa!








In spite of the above, am a fan of Mavic and replaced it with the same,

Cheers
Keith


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## rb58 (3 Jan 2015)

Sharky said:


> Bombproof they might be, but prone to the odd squeak after somersaulting over a Vauxhall Corsa!
> In spite of the above, am a fan of Mavic and replaced it with the same,


That'll buff out.


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## Sharky (3 Jan 2015)

rb58 said:


> That'll buff out.


 
Doing the WKRC Reliability Ride tomorrow - look out for me - I'm the one with a square wheel.

Cheers Keith


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## fossyant (3 Jan 2015)

For single speed or fixed gear try Miche XPress. You can pick them up for about £130 a pair


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## I like Skol (4 Jan 2015)

rb58 said:


> more so than the 36 spoke hand builts I got from a reputable wheel builder that needed to be re-tensioned and trued with less than 1,000 miles on the clock. They weren't as expensive as the Mavics, but neither were they budget wheels (XT hubs, Exal rims).


Strange. I self built a set of wheels and the rear is 36 spokes with XT hub and Mavic rims. I don't claim to be a pro wheel builder and haven't had any training but this wheel set has so far completed around 9000 miles and apart from a hub regrease a couple of months ago have been untouched since the day they were built.
I consider myself to be quite tough on wheels with some bunnyhopping, riding down steps and load carrying (like an 8 pack of Pepsi cans and 1pt of milk in the panniers) but fully expect these disc brake wheels to last several multiples of the distance they have already covered if I can keep pedalling long enough.


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## Andrew_Culture (4 Jan 2015)

Isn't it totally normal to need to re-tension wheels within X number of miles since building?


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## fossyant (4 Jan 2015)

Andrew_Culture said:


> Isn't it totally normal to need to re-tension wheels within X number of miles since building?



Nope. If built properly and de stressed before use, you won't need to touch them. I've built a few pairs and once you have got the spoke twist stress out then you don't need to touch them again when fitted.


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## Old Plodder (5 Jan 2015)

Above is mainly true of hand built wheels, however, when I build my wheels for 'touring' (rather than for 'racing') I don't put so much tension on the spokes, so I do recheck tensions after about 100 miles of use. (It can also make a slight difference depending on number of crossings.)
Having done that, they will not need touching again until the rims wear through.


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## Spoked Wheels (5 Jan 2015)

Old Plodder said:


> Above is mainly true of hand built wheels, however, when I build my wheels for 'touring' (rather than for 'racing') I don't put so much tension on the spokes, so I do recheck tensions after about 100 miles of use. (It can also make a slight difference depending on number of crossings.)
> Having done that, they will not need touching again until the rims wear through.



Why would a touring wheel need less tension? I've never heard that before. If you're trying to get a softer / more comfortable ride then you can look at tyres.
If a wheel is built properly then you don't need to retouch / re true it after a 100 miles.


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## Old Plodder (9 Jan 2015)

I explain it as such because my racing/cycle shop owner friend always, to me, over tightened his spokes on the wheels he built for racers.

The way I build my wheels have much less tension than his, but are quite bomb proof, as was demonstrated by another friend, who, unfortunately, hit a car that pulled out in front of him on his way to work one morning. His frame was a right off, but 'my' wheel remained true.

For a 'softer' ride, using more spoke crossings would allow for slightly more flex in the wheel.


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## Yellow Saddle (12 Jan 2015)

Old Plodder said:


> I explain it as such because my racing/cycle shop owner friend always, to me, over tightened his spokes on the wheels he built for racers.
> 
> The way I build my wheels have much less tension than his, but are quite bomb proof, as was demonstrated by another friend, who, unfortunately, hit a car that pulled out in front of him on his way to work one morning. His frame was a right off, but 'my' wheel remained true.
> 
> For a 'softer' ride, using more spoke crossings would allow for slightly more flex in the wheel.


It is a common myth that lower tension or longer spokes (via more crossings) allows for a softer ride. However, this is a myth without a hint of truth. Spokes are made of steel, a material that adheres to Hooke's law. This means that spoke strain (elongation or shortening) through loading or pedaling follows a perfectly linear line.

Further, if you have a longer spoke you could technically get more "stretch" out of it than a shorter spoke but again, for a given weight (static load) or bump (dynamic load) it will still only give as much as the weight of the load/bump wants it to give. Besides, spoke flex is in the order of 0.5mm, so feeling it over the flex in the tyres, frame and your butt is out of the question.

Your car analogy is purely anecdotal and had nothing to do with the tension in the wheel. It was purely a matter of what-forces-hit-where at the time.

Keep the tension high.


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## Yellow Saddle (12 Jan 2015)

User said:


> They have a thing about building rear wheels double butted non drive side and plain guage drive side.


That's a sure sigh of not knowing what's what. There is no reason (other than cost and expedience) to use plain gauge spokes in any wheel intended for prolonged use.


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## Old Plodder (18 Feb 2015)

On a rear wheel, I might use 3x/4x to even the tensions of the spokes, but I wouldn't use plain gauge on anything other than a town bike.


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## Yellow Saddle (18 Feb 2015)

Old Plodder said:


> On a rear wheel, I might use 3x/4x to even the tensions of the spokes, but I wouldn't use plain gauge on anything other than a town bike.


The spoke tension won't change with number of crosses because the bracing angle remains the same, regardless.


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## Old Plodder (19 Feb 2015)

I'm beginning to wonder if* Yellow Saddle *has actually built & ridden his wheels - I certainly have, for over thirty years.
*https://www.cyclechat.net/members/yellow-saddle.39857/*


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## Yellow Saddle (19 Feb 2015)

Old Plodder said:


> I'm beginning to wonder if* Yellow Saddle *has actually built & ridden his wheels - I certainly have, for over thirty years.


You seem to disagree with me and my guess is that you disagree with my last post. Your only evidence is that you've ridden bicycles for thirty years. That proves nothing. That guy there on the corner building site pouring concrete into moulds with steel reinforcing has been doing so for thirty hears but he can't calculate stresses and strains in civil engineering structure. I've been drinking beer for 30 years and know nothing about yeast. 
The emotive cocktail of painting me as a non-rider non-builder also does nothing for your argument. Let's stick to the science.
By suggesting that building a wheel 4X rather than 3X will even out the tension, you misunderstand fundamental physics.

Yes, there is a difference in tension in the left spokes and right spokes of a dished (typically rear) wheel. That is because the bracing angle differs. It is like a flagpole with two guy ropes. One rope is close to the pole, one is further. the further one requires less tension than the closer one to keep the pole straight.
I quickly calculated the bracing angles on a wheel for a typical mountain bike wheel (27" size rim if you care) with a typical (Hope PRO II) rear hub. The bracing angle on the left is 6.6 degrees and on the right 4.9 degrees. That translates to a tension on the left only 73% of what it is on the right. Note that the ultimate tension doesn't matter. In order for this wheel to be centered over the hub, the left tension has to be 73% over the right tension.

Now, you say that by crossing the spokes 4X instead of 3X you can reduce that difference. The point you miss is that making the spokes longer (which is what more crosses do, you can change the tensions and therefore the angle. You can't The bracing angles remain exactly the same.

Analogy: Flagpole erected on the edge of a large step is supported by two guy ropes. One guy rope is anchored down below and the other on the upper step. The rope anchored down below is longer, but its tension remains the same as should it have been on a level field and the two ropes are on the same level.

Would you like to comment?


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## Spoked Wheels (19 Feb 2015)

Old Plodder said:


> On a rear wheel, I might use 3x/4x to even the tensions of the spokes, but I wouldn't use plain gauge on anything other than a town bike.



The number of spokes dictates the pattern that I use. I have not made any research into the physics of why I should be doing this but it is what experienced wheel builders do. So a 24 and 28 spokes rear wheel get 2X, 32 and 36 get 3X - Some 36H touring wheels used to be laced 4X but I think wheel builders are moving away from that. 4X on a 32 spokes wheel, the angle would be so large that the crossing spoke would possibly fit over the head of the next inner spoke.

The only time that I have read about the spoke pattern being used to even the spokes tension between DS and NDS is when the NDS is laced radially. Some factory wheels are laced like that, I have even seen factory wheels laced radially on the DS and with spokes at a higher tension than I would normally use. Most wheels use the DS with a cross pattern for torque transfer so I wonder what is the thinking behind lacing the DS radially. Radially on the NDS and Crossed on the DS appears to close the tension difference but the results tend to suggests the wheels don't enjoy a long life. I'm trying to find the paper where I read this but no luck so far.

I have read that 4X used to be the choice for touring wheels because it makes the wheel radially more flexible, hence more comfortable to ride. No idea if this is true or not, just stating what I have read about the 4X pattern.

I stick to what works, radially or crossed pattern for front wheels and 2X or 3X for rear wheels, depending on number of spokes. If somebody asked me for a 48 spokes wheel then I should go with a 4X pattern I think


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## Yellow Saddle (19 Feb 2015)

Spoked Wheels said:


> The only time that I have read about the spoke pattern being used to even the spokes tension between DS and NDS is when the NDS is laced radially. Some factory wheels are laced like that, I have even seen factory wheels laced radially on the DS and with spokes at a higher tension than I would normally use. Most wheels use the DS with a cross pattern for torque transfer so I wonder what is the thinking behind lacing the DS radially. Radially on the NDS and Crossed on the DS appears to close the tension difference but the results tend to suggests the wheels don't enjoy a long life. I'm trying to find the paper where I read this but no luck so far.


You tacitly contradict what I'm saying without giving your own evidence or criticizing my evidence. This doesn't help the understanding of what's being debated here.

I reiterate: Spoke pattern cannot even spoke tension. Reading about it, someone writing about it or dreaming about it does not alter the fact.

Fancy lacing patterns are all about product differentiation. Engineering wise, the cross-spoked wheel is the perfect wheel. However, a perfect wheel is boring and boring doesn't sell. Hence all this DS/NDS Radial this Cross that nonsense.

Torque transfer is a red herring. Torque can only be transferred from hub to spoke if a) The spokes are tangentially laced i.e. crossed. b) The spokes are radially laced but you don't care about the problems brought about by windup. Windup effectively adds a tangential component to a wheel as soon as pedaling forces are applied.

Torque can also be transferred from the right to the left by way of the hub body, but then the hub body has to have a large diameter. Small diameter aluminium tubes don't transfer torque well enough to survive the experience.


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## Spoked Wheels (19 Feb 2015)

Yellow Saddle said:


> *You tacitly contradict what I'm saying without giving your own evidence or criticizing my evidence. This doesn't help the understanding of what's being debated here.*
> 
> I reiterate: Spoke pattern cannot even spoke tension. Reading about it, someone writing about it or dreaming about it does not alter the fact.
> 
> ...



I don't know if you noticed it but I was replying to Old Plodder post. If I'm honest, I try to avoid reading your posts but I just read it now and I don't disagree with it. The reason I try to avoid reading your posts is the tone you usually use to put your points across. To me, maybe just me, *sometimes* you come across as somebody that thinks too much of himself, someone that thinks he knows better than everybody else. On the other hand, sometimes you offer very useful information and that is the only reason why you aren't in my "ignore list" - sorry if that sounds bad but it's honest truth 

I was trying to make sense in my head as to why Old Plodder uses 4X on rear wheels because that is not something that I do so rather than sounding patronising I wrote my reply in a way that offer information that I have read and maybe, just maybe, Old Plodder could identify his decision to go 4X in some of the information I provided. 

I was not trying to contradict your post at all, as I was not aware of its contents.

Thank you for the info towards the end of your post anyway


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