# Headset Question



## Chris1983 (22 Jun 2017)

Hi Folks, 

Just got a quick question regarding my headset. 
Normally i would do all my own servicing and repairs on my bike, but i have been very busy of late so i paid someone to replace my head set bearings. This is how my bike has come back. but they have assured me that its perfectly fine and acceptable.










The bearing is proud of the frame and the top cap has had all the seals removed so its totally pointless. its just floating around and rattling between the frame and the stem so surplus to requirement. 
This to me is not right, but the company that did it assure me that its fine, they have offered to come and have a look at it next week and said they can fit a new top cap for me. But my question is why have they removed the seals in the first place. and why is the bearing now sticking up so far from the frame.

The original headset was an Acros Unit that had a 7mm Bearing, it looks to me that they have fitted a more standard 8mm bearing and then just thrown all the seals in the bin for some unknown reason.

Whats your thoughts? would you be happy to pay out good money and have your bike returned like this? Maybe i am over reacting, but i'm certainly wishing that i just found the time and fixed it myself now.

Thanks

Chris


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## Rooster1 (22 Jun 2017)

Errr, no - that's crap.


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## Yellow Saddle (22 Jun 2017)

Headbutt the bastard that did that.


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## Chris1983 (22 Jun 2017)

Glad i'm not the only one that see's and issue with it then. Its booked back on on Tuesday for a review, they have seen the Photo's and i got the impression on the phone that they seemed fine with their workmanship. 

I'm also not comfortable with the bearing sitting proud of the frame either, the old bearing never did that, but again, i'm being told its perfectly fine and the contact angles are all correct so there isn't an issue. its just that the new bearing is thicker than the original bearing.

I'm losing more and more faith every time i speak to them to be honest.


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## S-Express (22 Jun 2017)

Name and shame. To say that is 'fine' is bordering on fraud...


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## smutchin (22 Jun 2017)

Shoddy.


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## Chris1983 (22 Jun 2017)

I'm not going to name and shame just yet, they have agreed to look at it again next week and supply a new Top Cap FOC.

Would you guys be happy with the bearing sitting proud as well??? it is fully seated so in theory as long as the top cap has a recess to accept the bearing then it should be fine I guess??? or should i insist on a new bearing as well that the correct height for the frame/cup?


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## ianrauk (22 Jun 2017)

I would insist that everything is supplied and put right as in the original set up. And I wouldn't be expected to pay for them to fix it either.

That is really shocking.


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## Milkfloat (22 Jun 2017)

Not a lot to add. If i went to pick that up from the shop, I would have laughed at them and told them to fix it. I would not have taken the bike out of the shop. That is shocking.


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## Flyboy (22 Jun 2017)

So bad


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## Chris1983 (22 Jun 2017)

Milkfloat said:


> Not a lot to add. If i went to pick that up from the shop, I would have laughed at them and told them to fix it. I would not have taken the bike out of the shop. That is shocking.



The bike was dropped off at my work when i wasn't in. also the stiction from the grease held the top cap in place initially so i didn't notice it immediately


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## Milkfloat (22 Jun 2017)

Can you get them to come and pick it up right away?


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## Yellow Saddle (22 Jun 2017)

Chris1983 said:


> I'm not going to name and shame just yet, they have agreed to look at it again next week and supply a new Top Cap FOC.
> 
> Would you guys be happy with the bearing sitting proud as well??? it is fully seated so in theory as long as the top cap has a recess to accept the bearing then it should be fine I guess??? or should i insist on a new bearing as well that the correct height for the frame/cup?



I suppose by now you've heard that the job is considered as shocking and bad?

Should the bearing be sitting proud of the head tube?

I don't know and I don't think it is an easy answer. The bearing's height and intended protrusion (or not) is a function of its design. The top cap can be designed to cover a protruding bearing or a flat bearing. Mechanically, as long as the top cap does not bottom out before it starts to compress the bearing (via the conical compression ring around the steerer), it will be sound. However, for aesthetic reasons and water intrusion, it is usually pretty flush and incorporates a seal of sorts.

In other words, all must be correct for it to be as intended.

Luckily you have a Crane Creek headset there. These are good and pretty standard in that Crane Creek publishes dimensions and bearing codes for replacement parts. Go t o the Crane Creek website and see what your headset is supposed to look like and what bearing is supposed to be in there.

Crane Creek bearings have a numerical code.

The variables are:
1) Bearing ID and OD
2) Inner chamfer angle
3) Outer chamfer angle
4) Bearing height.


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## smutchin (22 Jun 2017)

Yellow Saddle said:


> Mechanically, as long as the top cap does not bottom out before it starts to compress the bearing (via the conical compression ring around the steerer), it will be sound.



I may be mistaken but it looks to me like the top cap isn't actually doing any compression duty in this setup, which the OP's description seems to confirm:



Chris1983 said:


> its just floating around and rattling between the frame and the stem so surplus to requirement.



That can't be right, can it? I thought the stem/spacers were supposed to sit on top of the top cap, which in turn sits on the compression ring, as you describe. I'm sure it's safe to ride with the spacers sitting directly on the compression ring, but there's no protection against water ingress, which is what I would assume to be the main function of the top cap.


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## Chris1983 (22 Jun 2017)

Thanks for all the replies guys, its appreciated. At times i can be a anal and over protective of my bikes, which is why i normally like doing all my repair work myself.



Milkfloat said:


> Can you get them to come and pick it up right away?



They have offered to pick it up today or tomorrow but the bike is at home and i'm not at the office tomorrow and i want to be here when they are, its not leaving my sight again ;-) so i am happy to wait until Tuesday.


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## Chris1983 (22 Jun 2017)

smutchin said:


> I may be mistaken but it looks to me like the top cap isn't actually doing any compression duty in this setup, which the OP's description seems to confirm:
> 
> 
> 
> That can't be right, can it? I thought the stem/spacers were supposed to sit on top of the top cap, which in turn sits on the compression ring, as you describe. I'm sure it's safe to ride with the spacers sitting directly on the compression ring, but there's no protection against water ingress, which is what I would assume to be the main function of the top cap.



Correct, the top cap is serving no purpose at the minute. it is just floating around doing nothing. and yes on every other bike, including this one the spacers used to sit on top of the top cap. I'm not actually sure what they have managed to do, apart from fark it up.


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## Chris1983 (22 Jun 2017)

Yellow Saddle said:


> I suppose by now you've heard that the job is considered as shocking and bad?
> 
> Should the bearing be sitting proud of the head tube?
> 
> ...



Thanks for the detailed reply, its appreciated. the Headset is actually an Acros Headset, or forgive me, is that the same as a Cane Creek under a different brand name? 
The Bearing that has been fitted is a TH Industries/FSA bearing which may be designed to sit proud as you say, although my road bike has an FSA headset fitted and that sits flush with the frame.

Thanks

Chris


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## Chris1983 (22 Jun 2017)

in fact, this shows the issue. they have just removed parts 1, 3 and 4 from this diagram. Part 2 is all that remains and its floating about as part 1 is not holding it in place. and i've not checked the lower race either.


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## Yellow Saddle (22 Jun 2017)

Chris1983 said:


> Thanks for the detailed reply, its appreciated. the Headset is actually an Acros Headset, or forgive me, is that the same as a Cane Creek under a different brand name?
> The Bearing that has been fitted is a TH Industries/FSA bearing which may be designed to sit proud as you say, although my road bike has an FSA headset fitted and that sits flush with the frame.
> 
> Thanks
> ...


Sorry, I saw a C and assumed it was Cane Creek.

TH Industries is also good to have because they laser etch a code on the side of the bearing which eliminates a bunch of measuring when looking for a replacement bearing. Unfortunately your old bearing is now gone.


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## Chris1983 (22 Jun 2017)

Put this to bed now and got a full refund. 

I asked for a new top cap and correct height bearing on Tuesday. So he offered a full refund. I guess the top cap would have sat flush with the bearing and thus still given a gap.

So back to square one and lesson learnt. I will only ever trust myself to work on my bikes.


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## Yellow Saddle (22 Jun 2017)

Chris1983 said:


> Put this to bed now and got a full refund.
> 
> I asked for a new top cap and correct height bearing on Tuesday. So he offered a full refund. I guess the top cap would have sat flush with the bearing and thus still given a gap.
> 
> So back to square one and lesson learnt. I will only ever trust myself to work on my bikes.



If you still have the top cap and take it off, you'll notice that it is damaged. The ID should just fit over the steerer, not the spacers, as in your picture. There is a bit of the top cap missing.


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## Chris1983 (22 Jun 2017)

Yellow Saddle said:


> If you still have the top cap and take it off, you'll notice that it is damaged. The ID should just fit over the steerer, not the spacers, as in your picture. There is a bit of the top cap missing.



Yeah there is a bit missing. Basically it is scrap now.

I did question this, apparently the lower seal was a bit perished so he removed it and through it away. The o ring was still fitted but "must have spilt and fallen out" and the top piece was fitted. So I guess that must have fallen off too.

I questioned him and said why didnt you just replace the damaged/worn parts and then charge me for them. He said he got the impression I wanted a cheap fix. It's a 3k bike FFS. 

I never mentioned any thing about wanting cheap. I even told him to fit a whole new headset if it needed it.

Or call me to let me know.

He did admit that this was wrong and said sorry for that.

I'm also not happy with the rear hub bearings they fitted as they feel rough to me plus the axle only has a end cap onto radial bearings but after a few miles it developed 2 to 3mm of play and now if removed that the bearings feel rough. I suspect they weren't seated correctly and how I have forced them in and it's damaged the race. But he dissagrees on that and I did offer for him to check it but he refused.

He offered the refund, I never asked for one and I said the choice is his. Either fix my bike on Tuesday to the correct standard or give me a refund and he chose the refund. 

So that's an end to it. Was all amicable and that's that. Live and learn.

But it does beg the question surely there must be a decent cyclear mechanic out there??? Somewhere????


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