# sat-nav dilemma



## john.highmoor (4 Jun 2013)

Any advice on sat-nav dilemma? i'm heading to the pyrenees and am sick of stopping at every junction to check a map. I have at most £150 to spend and have been looking at new Garmin etrex 20 or 2nd hand garmin 705 if i can persuade anyone to sell me one at my budget. Help on choosing would be great for me.


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## Ticktockmy (4 Jun 2013)

Paper map every time, just train yourself to memorise a length of the route at a time. GPS are OK, but you don,t get the big picture of your route with the average screen on the GPS.Paper maps don't run out of battery charge . Buy one of the smaller Ring bound road maps, and then mark your route on the pages you require and use it with the GPS if need be.


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## john.highmoor (4 Jun 2013)

I always carry paper maps but when things get complicated and you have a long journey, having to stop all the time to make sure you are not cycling up the wrong mountain the wrong way can really spoil my rhythm, i just need a robot to point me in the right direction. I just don't know which one.


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## martint235 (4 Jun 2013)

I'd go for the Etrex 20 (or even a second hand Legend or Vista) rather than a 705 due to the ability to change the batteries (standard AA) if necessary. I don't take paper maps but I do try to have in memory a rough idea of the route so the GPS is just confirmation of where the turn is.


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## jay clock (4 Jun 2013)

If you go for paper maps, then having a handlebar bag or map holder is essential. It allows you to constantly monitor the route as you ride, and really limits the delays. All the satnav options have significant battery weaknesses in my view, and evening if recharging every day at a hotel or campsite, getting a full 8+ hours out of any device seems an impossible holy grail.


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## jay clock (4 Jun 2013)

One other thing I found helped when cycling to Gibraltar was a handlebar mounted compass something like this http://www.totalmerchandise.co.uk/uploads/product-images/Bicycle_bell_with_compass.jpg


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## neil_merseyside (4 Jun 2013)

I've found that when plotting a route on BRT/BH that most of the time I can remember enough of even a 70miler not to really need the GPS! BUT the time I can't remember I do need the GPS as the confusion is usually a sneaky double turn/fork immediately after a junction or a changed priority that doesn't look as mapping did. 
I have an edge605 and just acquired an etrex20, I prefer the 605 from familiarity but E20 should be as good once I'm used to it (shame it can't read tcx though).


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## martint235 (4 Jun 2013)

jay clock said:


> If you go for paper maps, then having a handlebar bag or map holder is essential. It allows you to constantly monitor the route as you ride, and really limits the delays. All the satnav options have significant battery weaknesses in my view, and evening if recharging every day at a hotel or campsite, getting a full 8+ hours out of any device seems an impossible holy grail.


 I get 18+ hours out of a set of AAs in my Etrex. I can then either recharge the batteries while I sleep or just buy some AA batteries in a shop.


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## P.H (4 Jun 2013)

Etrex 20 and a map for me. Use the map to plot the route onto the GPS, a whole day or a bit at a time, nice and simple and I get around three days touring from a pair of AA batteries.


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## john.highmoor (4 Jun 2013)

how many hours would you get from a garmin 705? does the battery degrade quickly like a mobile phone? if i buy a secondhand on
e will i need to change the battery and is that feasable?


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## john.highmoor (4 Jun 2013)

whats the difference between etrex 20, legend and vista?


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## BigonaBianchi (4 Jun 2013)

Paper maps on a long tour. The gps loaded mobile phones are no good imho because of charging and visability restrictions in bright sunlight. My Garmin uses AA batteries and I carry spares...in the UK mostly you have the option of 'just buying more in a shop'...but there are places out there where there are no shops for hundreds of miles.


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## martint235 (4 Jun 2013)

john.highmoor said:


> whats the difference between etrex 20, legend and vista?


 The Etrex 20 is the replacement for the the Legend. The Etrex 30 is the replacement for the Vista. The main differences between the Legend/20 and Vista/30 are the inclusion in the latter of built in altimeter and compass.

As for battery life on the 705, I used to have a 605 which is essentially the same unit without HRM and cadence capabilities and I'd get about 15 hours if I used it as a speedo, less if it was actually doing the navigating.


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## MarkF (4 Jun 2013)

Good luck to the OP. 

*This* is why I've never used one.



Ticktockmy said:


> Paper map every time, just train yourself to memorise a length of the route at a time. GPS are OK, but you don,t get the big picture of your route with the average screen on the GPS.


 
I like to look at a big paper map in the evening over a beer, get the big picture, it might fire my enthusiasm up for a side trip that I otherwise might not have noticed. I just jot down a few pointers for the next day's riding normally. On my last tour, my riding partner had pre-loaded maps already on his phone, we split up, knowing exactly what I'd be doing, all day, drove me crackers and took the fun out of the ride for me.

PS. Don't think I've ever been "lost".


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## P.H (4 Jun 2013)

BigonaBianchi said:


> .but there are places out there where there are no shops for hundreds of miles.


 
But don't such places also have very few roads? So just switch the GPS off between junctions.


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## P.H (4 Jun 2013)

MarkF said:


> I like to look at a big paper map in the evening over a beer, get the big picture, it might fire my enthusiasm up for a side trip that I otherwise might not have noticed. I just jot down a few pointers for the next day's riding normally.


That's pretty much what I do, except I jot down the pointers on the Etrex


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## BigonaBianchi (4 Jun 2013)

P.H said:


> But don't such places also have very few roads? So just switch the GPS off between junctions.


 
good plan until you find yourself in the middle of southern Wyoming or similar, battery less facing a left or right turn decision, suffering from dehydration etc....make the wrong turn there and one may regret not having paper map.


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## P.H (4 Jun 2013)

BigonaBianchi said:


> good plan until you find yourself in the middle of southern Wyoming or similar, battery less facing a left or right turn decision, suffering from dehydration etc....make the wrong turn there and one may regret not having paper map.


Who's talking about not taking a paper map?
Only an idiot would embark on such a trip without a backup. I'd carry a map, a GPS, spare batteries, a small compas and a spare map. But I'd be expecting to navigate by GPS, because I prefer it.


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## puch (4 Jun 2013)

P.H said:


> Who's talking about not taking a paper map?
> Only an idiot would embark on such a trip without a backup. I'd carry a map, a GPS, spare batteries, a small compas and a spare map. But I'd be expecting to navigate by GPS, because I prefer it.


 
Don't forget an INS.


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## GrumpyGregry (4 Jun 2013)

Etrex 20 on the stem. I don't leave home without. Journey split into days and stored on it. Spare pack of AA's in the bar bag.
Map case atop bar bag for the big picture/coffee break review and bar table discussion/planning. Maps are pretty useless on the move and only show the big picture which is of flip all use when trying to decide which of three roads you need to take when the signpost has been destroyed by a motor vehicle,or the road works that closed the road mean you need to replan.


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## Blue Hills (5 Jun 2013)

I'd +1 to the several folks recommending an Etrex 20 with a map as backup of course.

This from someone who spent years poo-pooing the things.

As for "memorising" chunks of route I can usually only hold 2 or 3 turns at best and then on the ground apparently straightforward turns/junctions can be more complex than you thought.

+1 also to the comment above about map consulting breaking your rhythm - I find that a GPS has made me "purr" along more, not in a hurry as such but overall faster I'm sure. I think that when I relied just on maps I was subconscioulsy pushing myself harder to the next junction because I knew that I'd probably have to stop/waste 2 or 3 mins there to get the map out, check it, stow it away. 

With a GPS you can let the road roll gently beneath your wheels, knowing that you don't have to bother about a turn for maybe 800m, 2km - whatever its magic screen is telling you.

If you plan to use the Etrex 20 for this big trip (you didn't say when) get it ASAP and start studying it, the guidance online, using it for every trip - it takes a long long time to get the best from it.


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## Bodhbh (5 Jun 2013)

I'm currently in the map camp, but 100% get what the GPS users say about stopping and breaking rhythm on rides. Also, just come back from hols in Italy where we rented a satnav for the car and it was invaluble in getting thru busy town centres. I feigned to hate it for a week and sat grumbling with my pile of maps, but I had to admit in the end it saved an awful lot of hassle.

The problem for me is when folks start talking shop about em, my mind retreats into a world of soft flashing lights and elevator music...and when my mate starts playing with his in the pub on tour it drives me nuts. I just want something reliable with a map on it and very easy to programme A to B for the day.

If I wanted to give them a go...I'm getting that the Etrex 20 seems to be pretty much the default unit for touring (why not the 10 or 30? /edit nm answer is buried in the thread) But do I need to buy maps (for UK and EU) and how much will that set me back on top cost?


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## MarkF (5 Jun 2013)

MarkF said: ↑
I like to look at a big paper map in the evening over a beer, get the big picture, it might fire my enthusiasm up for a side trip that I otherwise might not have noticed. I just jot down a few pointers for the next day's riding normally.​


P.H said:


> That's pretty much what I do, except I jot down the pointers on the Etrex


 
Oh, looks like I am £150 up then.


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## andym (5 Jun 2013)

martint235 said:


> The Etrex 20 is the replacement for the the Legend. The Etrex 30 is the replacement for the Vista. The main differences between the Legend/20 and Vista/30 are the inclusion in the latter of built in altimeter and compass.



The modern GPSes have a number of features that are significant improvements on the previous generation. Thes include:

- much better map rendering
- tracks stored on the memory card - so effectively unlimited number;
- multiple maps;
- number of trackpoints in a track increased
- the receiver seems to be moe sensitive but I can't prove that.

While is you already have a GPS thes may not be sufficient to persuade you to buy a new one, if you don't already have one then a current generation is the way to go unless you can get an older model for a bargain price.

The eTrex 20 does a perfectly good job of telling you the altitude and producing an altitude profile.

Oh dear the maps vs GPS brigade are back. Yawn. Time to move on guys. It's all been said umpten times and the rest of the world aren't paying a blind bit of notice. A thread about GPS/satnav? Just walk on by.


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## snorri (5 Jun 2013)

I welcome the pause at junctions while I decide which turn to take, they give me a rest without it appearing too obvious that I'm in need of a breather.


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## Blue Hills (5 Jun 2013)

Bodhbh said:


> I
> If I wanted to give them a go...I'm getting that the Etrex 20 seems to be pretty much the default unit for touring (why not the 10 or 30? /edit nm answer is buried in the thread) But do I need to buy maps (for UK and EU) and how much will that set me back on top cost?


 
The 10- is seriously defeatured - the only advantage of the 30 as I understand is an altitude meter (no idea how good it is) independent from the altitude in your maps and a compass that works when you are stationary - no need for either. Use Open Streetmaps (OSM) and you don't need to pay a thing for maps. Free.


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## jay clock (6 Jun 2013)

It doesnt solve the battery issue, but I have two or more apps on my Android which are both 100% free and do not use data access when abroad, just the GPS. Mapswithme is one - download the app, then download each country you need (regions in bigger countries). Ideal if you just want to know exactly where you are but do not require routing. The other is NavFree - same process of download app, plus maps per country. It is more of a Tom Tom style satnav and worked perfectly in the car in Spain last week.


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## psmiffy (6 Jun 2013)

It has never crossed my mind that I am wasting time at junctions looking at the map - nor that it has has the slightest impact on progress.



andym said:


> Oh dear the maps vs GPS brigade are back. Yawn. Time to move on guys. It's all been said umpten times and the rest of the world aren't paying a blind bit of notice. A thread about GPS/satnav? Just walk on by.


 
I believe on other parts of the forum that they are still debating the existence of God and the possibility that our planet is warming uncontrollably -  - the regular appearance of the GPS versus maps threads is a mere bagatelle in comparison to the recommend me a bike/route/destination/critique my kitlist/in praise of trangias offerings  that feature on here.


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## Ticktockmy (6 Jun 2013)

andym said:


> Oh dear the maps vs GPS brigade are back. Yawn. Time to move on guys. It's all been said umpten times and the rest of the world aren't paying a blind bit of notice. A thread about GPS/satnav? Just walk on by.


I never understand why peeps are always going about subject that return for discussion again and again, Newcomers to this forum may not have mastered finding the previous discussion and are keen to get the latest info and views on the subject and to join in with lively discussions on this forum.
I have always found that for every repeat discussion I always learn something new; more so with electronic gadgets which are evolving all the time.
For those who don't like repeat discussions, one does not need to engage with it as there are so many other threads to look at.


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## CopperBrompton (6 Jun 2013)

jay clock said:


> All the satnav options have significant battery weaknesses in my view, and evening if recharging every day at a hotel or campsite, getting a full 8+ hours out of any device seems an impossible holy grail.


 
My eTrex Vista HCx does 25 hours on two AA Eneloops ...

The maps vs GPS debate is silly, IMV: each performs a complementary function.


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## Brains (6 Jun 2013)

john.highmoor said:


> Any advice on sat-nav dilemma? i'm heading to the pyrenees and am sick of stopping at every junction to check a map. I have at most £150 to spend and have been looking at new Garmin etrex 20 or 2nd hand garmin 705 if i can persuade anyone to sell me one at my budget. Help on choosing would be great for me.


 
The solution is:
Get a bar bag with a paper map module
Buy paper maps and learn how to read them (1:75,000 is the best size)
Get a GPS as well

You use the map to see where you are going and the GPS to see where you are.

I have toured across thousands of miles of Europe and also many miles of wingley wangerly Sustrans routes, I rarely miss a turn and a rarely stop at junctions to see which way to go
I do stop every so often to turn the map (I tend to read the map in direction of travel rather than always 'north up'

The only skills you need to learn are how to read a map, and how to read a map whilst riding a bike. A good bar bag with map attachment is essential.

The map is the main route finder, the GPS is the backup (and tells you when the next turn is coming up)


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## rich p (7 Jun 2013)

Sorry to be an idiot but when do those who plot a route on the garmin do so? Is it every evening during the tour or at home before the trip?
I can see problems with both. My route changes in minor ways frequently during the day, let alone major en route decisions such as, " Let's go to Verona instead of Venice".
I can appreciate that occasionally a gps might come in handy but nobody is in that much of a hurry on tour surely that you can't glance at a map every few miles and say, left here. It also gives me a chance to catch up with my wife while she glances down.


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## CopperBrompton (7 Jun 2013)

Depends on the length of the tour, Rich. A few days, I'll plot it all out in advance and load it into the GPS. Longer, I carry a MacBook Air 11 loaded with Basecamp and the whole of Europe, then plot the next day's route in the evening before loading it into the GPS.


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## Crankarm (8 Jun 2013)

How did we all manage before the era of GPS and the mobile phone ..............

If buying new now I wouldn't bother with the eTrex range. There are far better units available. Garmin Montana for one - larger screen or a SatMap.


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## Blue Hills (8 Jun 2013)

better in what way?

Just larger screen?


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## CopperBrompton (8 Jun 2013)

Large screen, touchscreen, wireless transfers, lots of customisation. It's a very nice machine, but with a price to match. 

For UK-only use, the one with OS mapping would be lovely:
https://buy.garmin.com/en-GB/GB/out...-600-moto-gb-discoverer-1-50k/prod117521.html

But I don't think you can get any update deals on OS mapping - and it's very expensive to update at full price.


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## bigjim (8 Jun 2013)

I found my legend invaluable on my last trip. But I also take a paper map. To read either I need to use reading glasses but I don't ride in them. Without them I can just about see to follow the pink line on the goto feature on the garmin.
Each day over breakfast I note down the names of villages and road numbers on my route under each other in large capitals and place that on my barbag. I also note turns such as T/L T/R etc. As long as the route has decent signposting this is usually all I need. In larger towns or where the signs are missing then I need the Garmin and map.
Or I just ask somebody.


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## Blue Hills (9 Jun 2013)

Trikeman said:


> Large screen, touchscreen, wireless transfers, lots of customisation. It's a very nice machine, but with a price to match.
> But I don't think you can get any update deals on OS mapping - and it's very expensive to update at full price.


 
mm - I know some of the other GPS's have impressively large screens but though I thought I might find the Etrex 20, with my aging eyes a problem I don't - part of the reason I think is that I use OSM and variants which are graphically pretty simple - give you what you need.

Mine came with a free sample of O Survey mapping and though I love OS maps I feel that they are inappropriate on a small screen, even bigger screen GPS. OSM is excellent in the UK.

Wireless is kind of nice I suppose if you are in a tent with a laptop or something but otherwise not a must-have. I prefer the joystick to touch screen, specially with gloves.
I'd encourage anyone to check out the Etrex 20* - you could save yourself a lot of cash.

Probably best to get a fellow user to demo it for you - don't suppose the shops will be showing off OSM.


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## CopperBrompton (9 Jun 2013)

I tend to plan routes on the Mac then transfer them to the GPS, so OS mapping would be wonderful. However, my elderly eTrex Vista HCx still works really well, and coupled with bikeroutetoaster.com to generate good cycling routes is still a device I'd recommend.


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## mmmmartin (11 Jun 2013)

Buy a used Etrex HcX on eBay for maybe £60. Install maps, I have the Garmin maps, I think they were £30 for the whole of Europe, they have just the roads not things like churches, contour lines etc etc. Buy AA batteries, a pair last a good couple of days. Brilliant piece of kit, used it in France from Med to Manche and also the southern bit of Spain. Also has things like nearby shops, hotels, etc etc. need a proper map obvs but a GPS on the handlebars saves a lot of unneccesary cycling. And when travelling rechargeable batteries are trouble: you are not always sure when you can recharge, esp when camping. Even hostels may not have plug points for customers.


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## bof (11 Jun 2013)

I own an Etrex 30 - I bought it for the HRM facility after my Garmin Hcx (I think) packed up after several years abuse.

If I were you, I wouldn't bother with a GPS unless you are pretty sure you will keep on using it, especially if you have a smartphone that can do GPS. Since you said you are going to the Pyrenees most of your cycling will be in France. Download a reasonably detailed map of the whole of Western France (or whichver way you are going) and a really detailed map of any really large towns you plan on visiting. ViewRanger is a good site/Android = dunno about iphone - app for this. Then if you get seriously lost, your maps turn to pulp in the rain or you want to cycle around a place like Bordeaux you can use your phone without incurring charges.

Next buy (or locate an old copy of) the Michelin road atlas for France. Cut out the pages you might use and leave the rest behind. Cut them up into 2 or 4 and for £10 or so you have maps. I number mine with a semi-transparent marker pen in the order I expect to use them so I can locate each one quickly and dispose of them when I know I'm done.


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## Gravity Aided (13 Jun 2013)

Crankarm said:


> How did we all manage before the era of GPS and the mobile phone ..............
> 
> If buying new now I wouldn't bother with the eTrex range. There are far better units available. Garmin Montana for one - larger screen or a SatMap.


 
I think I managed By having a Gazetteer for each State between here and South Dakota. Highly detailed. I'd then photocopy and put route information in. After that preparation, some other event would come up, and I never did a solo ride to Mount Rushmore.But I was ready. Oh, and I have a Garmin Nuvii 200.


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## Crankarm (13 Jun 2013)

bof said:


> I own an Etrex 30 - I bought it for the HRM facility after my Garmin Hcx (I think) packed up after several years abuse.
> 
> If I were you, I wouldn't bother with a GPS unless you are pretty sure you will keep on using it, especially if you have a smartphone that can do GPS. Since you said you are going to the Pyrenees most of your cycling will be in France. Download a reasonably detailed map of the whole of Western France (or whichver way you are going) and a really detailed map of any really large towns you plan on visiting. ViewRanger is a good site/Android = dunno about iphone - app for this. Then if you get seriously lost, your maps turn to pulp in the rain or you want to cycle around a place like Bordeaux you can use your phone without incurring charges.
> 
> Next buy (or locate an old copy of) the Michelin road atlas for France. Cut out the pages you might use and leave the rest behind. Cut them up into 2 or 4 and for £10 or so you have maps. I number mine with a semi-transparent marker pen in the order I expect to use them so I can locate each one quickly and dispose of them when I know I'm done.


 
GPSs rely on statellites. Mobile phones on phone masts. There are not always phone masts in remote areas so coverage issues. Plus mobile phone batteries don't last so long and cannot be readily replaced as most GPSs can use AA batteries.

Why not laminate your cut up paper maps to make them even more durable?


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## CopperBrompton (13 Jun 2013)

Crankarm said:


> GPSs rely on statellites. Mobile phones on phone masts.


 
All modern phones have GPS built-in. They typically _also_ use wifi to assist the GPS fix in urban areas, but don't usually use mast triangulation the way some very early systems did.

However, you're absolutely right about battery-life: GPS + screen on a lot = very poor battery-life.


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## doog (13 Jun 2013)

Trikeman said:


> All modern phones have GPS built-in. They typically _also_ use wifi to assist the GPS fix in urban areas, but don't usually use mast triangulation the way some very early systems did.
> 
> However, you're absolutely right about battery-life: GPS + screen on a lot = very poor battery-life.


 


A modern phone wont report a GPS signal without a mast as they rely on communication with the network to report your location . A stand alone GPS like the Etrex doesnt need it.


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## psmiffy (13 Jun 2013)

doog said:


> A modern phone wont report a GPS signal without a mast as they rely on communication with the network to report your location . A stand alone GPS like the Etrex doesnt need it.


 
???? mine does


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## CopperBrompton (13 Jun 2013)

doog said:


> A modern phone wont report a GPS signal without a mast as they rely on communication with the network to report your location


That's not the case. A GPS receiver doesn't start needing phone masts just because you put it in the same box as a mobile phone.

You can easily test this by switching off mobile data and GSM and continuing to use the GPS.


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## doog (13 Jun 2013)

Trikeman said:


> That's not the case. A GPS receiver doesn't start needing phone masts just because you put it in the same box as a mobile phone.
> 
> You can easily test this by switching off mobile data and GSM and continuing to use the GPS.


 


my mistake - bloody hell im out of touch 

edit ...Im thinking of GPS tracking..that still needs GSM im sure. You can see where you are but if you want someone else to follow your location on a platform , it needs GSM.. probably going off topic now


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## CopperBrompton (14 Jun 2013)

Almost ... that needs mobile data (GPRS/3G/4G). :-)


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## HorTs (17 Jun 2013)

I have a 2nd hand Garmin 800 Edge and it lasts me 10-11hours constant use. I use it in conjunction with a paper map on my bar bag. If I know I'm on the same road for ages then I will turn it off to save charging it as much for the next day.


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## steveindenmark (18 Jun 2013)

Get something compatible with i pad if you are talking one.

Garmin is not compatible. 

Steve.


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## CopperBrompton (18 Jun 2013)

It can be, but it is a bit of a faff.


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## bof (20 Jun 2013)

Crankarm said:


> GPSs rely on statellites. Mobile phones on phone masts. There are not always phone masts in remote areas so coverage issues. Plus mobile phone batteries don't last so long and cannot be readily replaced as most GPSs can use AA batteries.
> 
> Why not laminate your cut up paper maps to make them even more durable?


I was suggesting (a little unclearly) that the the GPS be a backup. Laminating needs a laminator. Also if you have masses of map bits, they tend to get in the way as they dont fold nicely like paper does. I laminated an old AA atlas as my Lejog backup (the Extrex was my primary tool) and in retrospect I wish I hadnt bothered as they filled up my bag - I was travelling v lightweight - and I barely referred to them outside of the hotel room at night.


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## spen666 (21 Jun 2013)

Sat Nav's are rubbish. I got one and used it to get me to Whipsnade Zoo. Once inside the zoo, it said "Bear left". When I looked, there was a monkey there and it looked nothing like a bear.





I'll get my coat


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## benb (21 Jun 2013)

jay clock said:


> If you go for paper maps, then having a handlebar bag or map holder is essential. It allows you to constantly monitor the route as you ride, and really limits the delays. All the satnav options have significant battery weaknesses in my view, and evening if recharging every day at a hotel or campsite, getting a full 8+ hours out of any device seems an impossible holy grail.


 

My Edge 605 lasts way over 12 hours, as long as I don't cane the backlight.
You could also top it up during breaks with an external battery pack like the Pebble


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## jay clock (22 Jun 2013)

benb said:


> My Edge 605 lasts way over 12 hours, as long as I don't cane the backlight.
> You could also top it up during breaks with an external battery pack like the Pebble


When touring and stealth camping the 12 hrs is not great


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## benb (24 Jun 2013)

jay clock said:


> When touring and stealth camping the 12 hrs is not great


 

True, and in that situation I'd make sure I had paper maps as backup in case I couldn't get power.


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## psmiffy (2 Jul 2013)

I could not help myself


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## PpPete (2 Jul 2013)

psmiffy said:


> I could not help myself


 
LOL

BTW.... Etrex Vista HCx (and likely a Etrex 20 also) running on Lithium AA = well beyond 500 km / 24 hours of navigation. And Lithium AA are approx half the weight of NiMh or Alkaline.


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## CopperBrompton (2 Jul 2013)

psmiffy said:


> I could not help myself


 


Though he got a couple of the technical specs wrong: the device is not suitable for use in all lighting conditions, and they are not compatible with British Weather versions 1.0 to 10.9.


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## psmiffy (2 Jul 2013)

Trikeman said:


> Though he got a couple of the technical specs wrong: the device is not suitable for use in all lighting conditions, and they are not compatible with British Weather versions 1.0 to 10.9.


 
Can be accesorised with a front light and polyethelene


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## CopperBrompton (2 Jul 2013)

That's the trouble with all this new-fangled technology - there's always one more upgrade needed


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## ComedyPilot (2 Jul 2013)

Touring I have only used maps, because of the gps/battery conundrum (sp?) and usually sort of know the route off by heart, or just go from town/village to next town/village by signs/compass.

I am going to give Audax a shot in a few weeks, so would like to use a gps to assist in swift progress on the navigation front; I am slow enough as it is, and I don't need navigation errors slowing me any further.

Both maps and gps have their merits IMO, and neither should be poo-pooed or heralded over the other.


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## john xyz (2 Jul 2013)

Cut pages out the Michelin for me. I put them in the clear plastic pouch thats velcro'd to top of my bar bag. You can also see what the roads/terrain look like around you easily - good for that minor detour.


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