# Hardtail 29er



## Whistlingdogg (15 Aug 2011)

I'm looking for a hardtail 29er and have a budget of around 1500. I mainly do single track and fireroads around Swinley forest and a bit of xc. My current bike is a quite old Scott al hard tail with updated brakes and forks. 

As the new 2012 bikes are starting to trickle through an there are some quite good deals around. I can get a Scott Scale Elite for 1199 in large (not sure what size this is though 19 or 21 inch?). I can also get a fisher/trek paragon for 1199 (19 inch). Can also save £30 on the paragon on a cashback deal. 

I have been following the whyte 829 and although it is a little out of my price range I would consider it. I'm looking for the right bike and am willing to wait. Do people think the deals I've mentioned ate any good or should I wait for the 2012 models? The 2012 paragon will actually be a superfly Alu HT for 1600 and I think the Scott will be around 1400 but the same APEC and just minor tweaks.


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## Ian 74 (15 Aug 2011)

I have had my eye on a 29er for a while and i have decided upon the Giant XTC 29er

http://www.planetfear.com/item/Brand_Giant2011XTC29er_0_0_30838_1.html

The whole idea of the 29er appeals.

Happy shopping


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## Whistlingdogg (15 Aug 2011)

Ian 74 said:


> I have had my eye on a 29er for a while and i have decided upon the Giant XTC 29er
> 
> http://www.planetfear.com/item/Brand_Giant2011XTC29er_0_0_30838_1.html
> 
> ...


Oooo. I missed this one. Any idea what size is medium?


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## Whistlingdogg (15 Aug 2011)

I see mediums on sale for also 1199. Bike radar's reviews are very positive. What to do... Can I even contemplate spending 1200 on something that I haven't ridden?


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## Whistlingdogg (15 Aug 2011)

Mediums appear to be 18 inch but also giants apparently come up large so this would be the size for me.


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## GrumpyGregry (15 Aug 2011)

Have a look at the new Kona's.


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## Whistlingdogg (15 Aug 2011)

Arg! There's also a specialize carve pro 29er for £1500. This isn't going to be easy.


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## Iain p (15 Aug 2011)

On one might be worth a look.


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## Whistlingdogg (15 Aug 2011)

The Giant XTC 29er looks top for the moment and at £1200 it does seem like really good value. Ashcycles are advertising for the price. Has anyone has any dealing with them?


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## Zoiders (15 Aug 2011)

If you like the single track I would stick with a 26".


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## marzjennings (16 Aug 2011)

Zoiders said:


> If you like the single track I would stick with a 26".




No way, 29er's rock on single track. They're not great in the air (DJ), around town (Urban Trials) and knarly downhill, but on the single track so far I've found a 29er just as, if not slightly more proficient.


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## Zoiders (16 Aug 2011)

marzjennings said:


> No way, 29er's rock on single track. They're not great in the air (DJ), around town (Urban Trials) and knarly downhill, but on the single track so far I've found a 29er just as, if not slightly more proficient.


It depends on what you mean by single track.

In the UK woods among the twisty trails of trees, roots and holes then they simply aren't as quick.

Designed for US riding on fire trails and the like, not UK single track which is little more than deer track in some places.


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## Iain p (16 Aug 2011)

How about 650c wheels, best of both worlds.


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## Whistlingdogg (16 Aug 2011)

Just so I don't rush into this I'm taking a bike out on the trails I normally ride around swinley forest. They're giving me a scott scale 29er pro. It's a carbon frame and the components are a bit better than what I'm looking at but at least I'll see how it handles on stuff like the tank traps run. It's quite a bit modified though and had much shorter bars than stock (620 I think he said).

I'll be sure to update and give my opinions.


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## marzjennings (17 Aug 2011)

Zoiders said:


> It depends on what you mean by single track.
> 
> In the UK woods among the twisty trails of trees, roots and holes then they simply aren't as quick.
> 
> Designed for US riding on fire trails and the like, not UK single track which is little more than deer track in some places.



Nope wrong again. While keeping it tight through twisty sections does take a bit more work on a 29er over a 26er. A 29er floats over roots and holes a lot easier than a 26er. That's sort of the point of the bigger wheels.

And no fire road riding around here, just some sweet single track as tight, twisty and rooty as any UK trails.

That's a 29er I'm trying to keep up with in the video.

[media]
]View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2SKXGwA2-0[/media]


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## Zoiders (17 Aug 2011)

While there might be trees in that vid it's not really that much like UK single track at all it's just a trail - looking at that vid it looks to have been cleared back a lot and it's seen a lot of foot traffic and shovel work, I am guessing that it's the US from how dry it is as well. 

It's simply too dry, too wide and it doesn't have enough in the way of exposed roots or lumps and bumps as it doesn't see the rain fall to make them.

Racy soundtrack or not it's not as challenging as you make out, it almost looks wheelchair accessible to be honest.


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## marzjennings (17 Aug 2011)

Zoiders said:


> While there might be trees in that vid it's not really that much like UK single track at all it's just a trail - looking at that vid it looks to have been cleared back a lot and it's seen a lot of foot traffic and shovel work, I am guessing that it's the US from how dry it is as well.
> 
> It's simply too dry, too wide and it doesn't have enough in the way of exposed roots or lumps and bumps as it doesn't see the rain fall to make them.
> 
> Racy soundtrack or not it's not as challenging as you make out, it almost looks wheelchair accessible to be honest.



Nice try, and it is hard to tell through a wide angle lenses, but the trail isn't wide enough to walk 2 abreast. 

The trails here compare nicely with anything I've ridden in the UK ('cept no hills, I do miss hills) as rooty and as twisty, though as you noticed not as wet. 

I was late coming to 29ers and hesitated to believe their advantages, but so far I like my new bike. I still keep a 26er for some race courses, ones where the pro's of 26er acceleration override the pro's of 29er higher momentum.

And for longer riders I much more comfortable ride of the 29er ht over a 26er ht.


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## Whistlingdogg (17 Aug 2011)

Nice... marzjennings where was that vid taken?


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## Nordog (18 Aug 2011)

Nothing like my local single track, I could go a look quick if i had that trail to ride on and I'm 66.

My son has got a 29er he looks and moves very top heavy. On road he I can just keep up with him off road I wait for him. And he is only 34yrs old.


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## GrumpyGregry (18 Aug 2011)

why not move onto dogmatic assertions based on sheer subjective opinion and bugger all empirical evidence about steel vs ali frames, or wearing a helmet or no while we are at it?


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## MacB (18 Aug 2011)

GregCollins said:


> why not move onto dogmatic assertions based on sheer subjective opinion and bugger all empirical evidence about steel vs ali frames, or wearing a helmet or no while we are at it?



I've gone for a 29er coz I is a big fat bastard and 26" wheels look silly under me


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## Whistlingdogg (20 Aug 2011)

Well just finished a 3 hour ride around Swinley forest on a demo Scott scale 29er pro. This has a carbon frame and has upgraded parts (xtr). 

Wow! How fast. I didn't really need to pedal the hills as I could take so much speed into them. The ones I did have to pedal up (surrey hill) was so easy. I could have done the whole thing again. So much confidence off drop offs an point and it went.

I should go an ride the equivalent 26 inch (Scott scale 20) but to be honest I'm completely sold.


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## gb155 (20 Aug 2011)

Whistlingdogg said:


> Well just finished a 3 hour ride around Swinley forest on a demo Scott scale 29er pro. This has a carbon frame and has upgraded parts (xtr).
> 
> Wow! How fast. I didn't really need to pedal the hills as I could take so much speed into them. The ones I did have to pedal up (surrey hill) was so easy. I could have done the whole thing again. So much confidence off drop offs an point and it went.
> 
> I should go an ride the equivalent 26 inch (Scott scale 20) but to be honest I'm completely sold.



How many $$$'s will the 29'er version cost you ?


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## Whistlingdogg (20 Aug 2011)

I took this one out just to get a feel for the 29er style of bike. I'm still looking at the giant xtc 29er for £1250


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## lukesdad (22 Aug 2011)

Swinley isnt typical Uk singletrack its forest track. Why dont you get a proper mtb and be done with it.


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## lukesdad (22 Aug 2011)

marzjennings said:


> Nice try, and it is hard to tell through a wide angle lenses, but the trail isn't wide enough to walk 2 abreast.
> 
> The trails here compare nicely with anything I've ridden in the UK ('cept no hills, I do miss hills) as rooty and as twisty, though as you noticed not as wet.
> 
> ...


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## marzjennings (22 Aug 2011)

Yep, just got back into racing again, and after listening to a bunch of hype from friends racing 29ers I thought I'd give it a go too. I did ok for a first season back, finishing middle of the pack overall in cat 2, even managing a third and a brief visit to the podium.

I'm going to race a few more times this autumn and then work out if I want to build up another 26er to race on or stick with the 29er. Or even build up a new light weight full susser to race on.

29er's even get raced on the world circuit with a first win at Dalby this year.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/mtb-world-cup-cross-country-2-cdm/elite-men-cross-country/results


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## Whistlingdogg (22 Aug 2011)

lukesdad said:


> Swinley isnt typical Uk singletrack its forest track. Why dont you get a proper mtb and be done with it.


It doesn't matter if it's typical or not, I live 4 miles away and so will be doing most of my riding there. I don't really understand your comment anyway, care to elaborate? I went around Cannock chase a few weekends ago and that seemed quote similar. I guess that isn't typical either then.


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## GrumpyGregry (22 Aug 2011)

lukesdad said:


> Swinley isnt typical Uk singletrack its forest track. Why dont you get a proper mtb and be done with it.



Yes. We should all ride bikes with 26" wheels because that is what the originators of our sport had to use.

Perhaps we should also insist on cut down motorcycle bullhorns, coaster brakes, flared jeans, and long hair to ensure we ride proper mtb's and are proper mtb-ers?

If he wants to ride a 29-er, let him. Once he is used to the slightly different feel he will be just as quick on singletrack as he is now.


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## lukesdad (22 Aug 2011)

They are a n+1 sales pitch.  

Put the right rider on the wrong bike they will be fast anyway.

Try a cyclo cross steed round Swinley you will be even faster.

Single track as most mtbers I know regard them are either tight and twisty technical or steep or a mixture of the 3.

Greg they may be fine for the downs link or SDway, but for single track you need fast wheels and a SWB to get you along them at a decent rate of knots.


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## Iain p (22 Aug 2011)

Whistlingdogg said:


> Well just finished a 3 hour ride around Swinley forest on a demo Scott scale 29er pro. This has a carbon frame and has upgraded parts (xtr).
> 
> Wow! How fast. I didn't really need to pedal the hills as I could take so much speed into them. The ones I did have to pedal up (surrey hill) was so easy. I could have done the whole thing again. So much confidence off drop offs an point and it went.
> 
> I should go an ride the equivalent 26 inch (Scott scale 20) but to be honest I'm completely sold.




My question would be, is the speed down to the wheels or the carbon frame and lighter components?

Is the scott demo bike a similar weight to your current bike, for comparison reasons?
Just a thought


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## MacB (22 Aug 2011)

lukesdad said:


> Greg they may be fine for the downs link or SDway, *but for single track you need fast wheels and a SWB to get you along them at a decent rate of knots*.



Ah, but remember we's not all superfit, mile eating, nutters  If I did singletrack on a 29er, a 26" or a Brompton, I doubt my overall time would be much different. But I do prefer the big wheels of a 29er, same as if I wanted a 26er I'd be lusting after something like the Surly Pugsley.

Then there's that 'decent rate of knots' bit you mention, some of us are quite cowardly by nature. Just having a bike that is more suited to a certain riding style doesn't mean we'll be able to ride like that, or want to.


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## Whistlingdogg (22 Aug 2011)

Iain p said:


> My question would be, is the speed down to the wheels or the carbon frame and lighter components?
> 
> Is the scott demo bike a similar weight to your current bike, for comparison reasons?
> Just a thought



A question that I'm loosing sleep over I'm afraid. Was it the carbon frame an the xte components that made it super easy to climb an give me the extra confidence or was it the wheels? I'm sure it's a bit of both but how much. I need to rude a 26er carbon frame with high high spec components and an aluminium hardtail with stock components to really answer that. And I expect the answer only to be right for me and what I enjoy. So there will be no right or wrong conclusion.


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## Iain p (22 Aug 2011)

Have just had similar problems trying to decided what bike to buy. Must admit i don't envy you. 

Hope you get sorted m8


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## lukesdad (22 Aug 2011)

MacB said:


> Ah, but remember we's not all superfit, mile eating, nutters  If I did singletrack on a 29er, a 26" or a Brompton, I doubt my overall time would be much different. But I do prefer the big wheels of a 29er, same as if I wanted a 26er I'd be lusting after something like the Surly Pugsley.
> 
> Then there's that 'decent rate of knots' bit you mention, some of us are quite cowardly by nature. Just having a bike that is more suited to a certain riding style doesn't mean we'll be able to ride like that, or want to.



Fair comment. Fast on single track in the OP was my main point of reference. As you say if performance is not part of the criteria it doesn t matter what you ride. My point still stands though they re a sales pitch like hybrids. They ll take off just the same, and as with hybrids peeps will by them and as they grow more competent and try stiffer challenges they ll wish they hadn t. But hey whatever floats your boat !


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## GrumpyGregry (22 Aug 2011)

lukesdad said:


> Greg they may be fine for the downs link or SDway, but for single track you need fast wheels and a SWB to get you along them at a decent rate of knots.



you're having a laugh 

my audax bike does the downslink and I've ridden the SDW on my tourer. thouse would not be my test lab.  My 29-er singletrack experience is limited though to that I could find in the quantocks, and locally, this spring, and in austria a couple of years back.

once they adapt a given rider will be just as quick imo. 29-ers roll better once up to speed ime.

Of course my perfect mtb would have a 29-er front and a 26" rear and frame geometry to suit.


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## lukesdad (22 Aug 2011)

GregCollins said:


> you're having a laugh
> 
> my audax bike does the downslink and I've ridden the SDW on my tourer. thouse would not be my test lab. My 29-er singletrack experience is limited though to that I could find in the quantocks, and locally, this spring, and in austria a couple of years back.
> 
> ...



Some folk are never happy


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## GrumpyGregry (22 Aug 2011)

lukesdad said:


> Some folk are never happy



I saw one once in an american mag $6000 iirc.


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## lukesdad (22 Aug 2011)

One off special ?or in production


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## marzjennings (23 Aug 2011)

lukesdad said:


> Fair comment. Fast on single track in the OP was my main point of reference. As you say if performance is not part of the criteria it doesn t matter what you ride. My point still stands though they re a sales pitch like hybrids. They ll take off just the same, and as with hybrids peeps will by them and as they grow more competent and try stiffer challenges they ll wish they hadn t. But hey whatever floats your boat !



Wow, I'm impressed with your persistence to stick with an out of date opinion. If performance is part of the criteria a 29er would still work, in fact rock in XC races on tight arse single track.

Have you tried one yet?

Heck Kulhavy just won the UCI world cup on one. Could he have won on a 26er, maybe, was it really the bike that made all the difference, maybe not, but he still won on a bike that a lot of folks feel put him at a disadvantage.


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## GrumpyGregry (23 Aug 2011)

lukesdad said:


> One off special ?or in production



Boutique production iirc. Didn't 'dale make the same/similar when 29-er first sprang on the scene? It strikes me it should feel like it accelerates like an mtb Lightning whilst rolling really easily... but having to carry two different sized tubes could get old really fast.

EDIT: bit of googling suggests some niche builders still do them. Carver and Ventana to name but two.

The axe I grind is a simple one. No one designed the 26" wheel for mtb-ing it's just what they had at the time. With a blank sheet of paper what would be best, provided you can persuade people to re-learn their 26-er skills.


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## lukesdad (23 Aug 2011)

marzjennings said:


> Wow, I'm impressed with your persistence to stick with an out of date opinion. If performance is part of the criteria a 29er would still work, in fact rock in XC races on tight arse single track.
> 
> Have you tried one yet?
> 
> Heck Kulhavy just won the UCI world cup on one. Could he have won on a 26er, maybe, was it really the bike that made all the difference, maybe not, but he still won on a bike that a lot of folks feel put him at a disadvantage.




He s paid to ride what he s told


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## Zoiders (23 Aug 2011)

Comparing UCI world cup courses again is nothing to do with UK single track.


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## lukesdad (23 Aug 2011)

Tight arse single Track like the one in your vid  By the way the guy in front is either a better rider or knows that route better than you


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## Zoiders (23 Aug 2011)

I pulled a ride vid at random from youtube of my usual stamping ground.

It's nothing flashy it's just an average rider riding UK single track that you wouldn't want to be using a 29er on.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=ZNvL-E1aNEE

This guy impressed me, he's on a clapped out Carerra with V brakes and he still rips the piss out of that tame 29er vid on real single track.


View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xjd5TE_OkL4&feature=related


That's style cop on the Stafford side and not strictly the monkey, that side of the chase you are rapidly getting into all mountain riding and not just single track.


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## lukesdad (23 Aug 2011)

GregCollins said:


> Boutique production iirc. Didn't 'dale make the same/similar when 29-er first sprang on the scene? It strikes me it should feel like it accelerates like an mtb Lightning whilst rolling really easily... but having to carry two different sized tubes could get old really fast.
> 
> EDIT: bit of googling suggests some niche builders still do them. Carver and Ventana to name but two.
> 
> The axe I grind is a simple one. No one designed the 26" wheel for mtb-ing it's just what they had at the time. With a blank sheet of paper what would be best, provided you can persuade people to re-learn their 26-er skills.



Probably my 6 year olds islabike. I rode it round the skills park at brechfa awsomely fast In the right hands of course


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## marzjennings (25 Aug 2011)

lukesdad said:


> He s paid to ride what he s told



True, yet he still won on a bike many consider slower than a 26er.


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## marzjennings (25 Aug 2011)

lukesdad said:


> Tight arse single Track like the one in your vid  By the way the guy in front is either a better rider or knows that route better than you



He is and he does and as he races Cat 1 I'm just happy with trying to keep up.


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## Zoiders (25 Aug 2011)

marzjennings said:


> True, yet he still won on a bike many consider slower than a 26er.


When the UCI loses it's seemingly arbitrary grasp on a sport it seems to know naff all about then one day XC racing might resemble mountain biking.

The new olympic course is a classic example, it should have been set up like a rally stage crossed with an adventure race complete with the same style of coverage, the UK has plenty of places to do it in and it should have been a free to view event, instead it's a crit race on gravel.

It's been said that they find it hard to find people to compete - that's because they look in the wrong place - as in not the actual body of people involved in the actual sport at grass roots.


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## marzjennings (25 Aug 2011)

Zoiders said:


> When the UCI loses it's seemingly arbitrary grasp on a sport it seems to know naff all about then one day XC racing might resemble mountain biking.
> 
> The new olympic course is a classic example, it should have been set up like a rally stage crossed with an adventure race complete with the same style of coverage, the UK has plenty of places to do it in and it should have been a free to view event, instead it's a crit race on gravel.
> 
> It's been said that they find it hard to find people to compete - that's because they look in the wrong place - as in not the actual body of people involved in the actual sport at grass roots.



Yes, can't argue with that, the jessyfication of XC races has been going on for years as an attempt to get more roadies to come race. 

It would have been nice to see the olympic race use some of the existing trails. Coed Y Brenin would have been a great place to hold the race.


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## lukesdad (25 Aug 2011)

The SAMS series in the south used to have good well subscribed races although the courses were fairly tame and multilap affairs as was the Gorrick series. Since the take off of Marathon events they took over as the most popular form of event. IMO this was more financial than course type £20 for a days riding compared to 1and half hours on the multilap stuff. Some of the tougher lap events have dissappeared from the calender round here,due to lack of takeup.A real shame, but as with most things its a supply and demand thing. Freeriding is now the most popular mtb discipline here now with occasional trips to the centres but they are really quiet boring.

A 29er would really struggle on the sheep trail type freeriding in Wales.


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## GrumpyGregry (25 Aug 2011)

Zoiders said:


> When the UCI loses it's seemingly arbitrary grasp on a sport it seems to know naff all about then one day XC racing might resemble mountain biking.
> 
> The new olympic course is a classic example, it should have been set up like a rally stage crossed with an adventure race complete with the same style of coverage, the UK has plenty of places to do it in and it should have been a free to view event, instead it's a crit race on gravel.
> 
> It's been said that they find it hard to find people to compete - that's because they look in the wrong place - as in not the actual body of people involved in the actual sport at grass roots.



very true and well said. How do we get the UCI to listen?


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## Zoiders (25 Aug 2011)

We don't have to get them to listen, people just have to ignore them and do their own thing.

When a separate organisation can make representations and push them out we may see changes.


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## Angelfishsolo (25 Aug 2011)

marzjennings said:


> Yes, can't argue with that, the jessyfication of XC races has been going on for years as an attempt to get more roadies to come race.
> 
> It would have been nice to see the olympic race use some of the existing trails. Coed Y Brenin would have been a great place to hold the race.



Amen to that. Would have been interesting getting camera into much of it though. The Afan valley also offers much.


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## Dave Crampton (29 Aug 2011)

Whistlingdogg said:


> I'm looking for a hardtail 29er and have a budget of around 1500. I mainly do single track and fireroads around Swinley forest and a bit of xc. My current bike is a quite old Scott al hard tail with updated brakes and forks.
> 
> ....




Have you seen the new Cotic frames here:

http://www.cotic.co.uk/news/


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## Whistlingdogg (7 Sep 2011)

Just got back from my hols and finally got to take out an equivalent 26er. It was a Scott scale 20. Beautiful bike and a great ride.

Very lively and turned in quicker but I found that I was less confident on this and didn't take the speed through the trails. There was a point on a trail that I carried speed on the 29er that took me almost to the top of the next rise but I had to pedal hard on this one. 

I just remember how I felt after a 3 hour ride on the 29er - just one more trail...

So it's now down to a carbon 29er for around 2k. The new Scott scale 29 expert is 2199 and I can get one in October. The Whyte 29c is 1999 and the 29cs is 2599 but both won't be available until jan.

There's little or no difference between the 2011 and 2012 scotts and so if I could get my hands on a scale 29 pro 2011 (large) I'd be very happy I think


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## Whistlingdogg (9 Sep 2011)

And my prayers have been answered. Picking up a 2011 pro on Sunday.


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