# Inter-property fence



## figbat (17 Jan 2020)

Scenario: the 6-foot fence between our rear garden and our neighbour's has a broken fence post, most recently highlighted during storm Brendan. I hadn't noticed it but my neighbour (to whom we barely speak due to his and his partner's apparent social introversion) mentioned it to me when I happened to be outside at the same time as he was. The fence is a continuous arris rail and feather-edge fence. It is erected with the finished face towards our garden (so we can't see the posts or arris rails, just the feather-edge and gravel board).

The neighbour implied that the fence was ours. I don't know what the deeds say. It is highly likely that the fence was built by his predecessor in the house, given its construction and the fact that at the far end of their garden this same fence construction turns at 90° and continues along the far end of their garden. We arrived after the current neighbours; the previous owner of our house is well-known to have been unlikely to have forked out on what is generally a decent fence installation. All circumstantial evidence points to the actual material of the fence belonging to the neighbours, regardless of the legal responsibility. My wife has an inkling that it is our boundary, but no evidence. Looking out of our house into the garden, the fence is to our right.

I suspect that the neighbour doesn't have the ability or inclination to try and fix it. After telling me which post was broken and that it was my fence he broke off contact and disappeared. When I entered the garden to check it out I am faced with a continuous run of feather-edge and no idea where the posts even are, let alone finding the broken one. Running my hands along the top of the fence I located the posts and by pulling and pushing found the broken one.

I'm not sure the neighbour even realises that in order to fix it I'd probably have to do it from his side. In fact I have formed a thought plan where I may be able to prise some of the feather-edge off from my side, remove the nails holding the arris to the broken post and hopefully manage to extract the broken stump (which is probably broken at ground level), then run a new post in, cut the rebates for the arris, nail it all back together and get on with my life.

Further context is that the only way into their garden is either through their house or over the fence. I can access my garden down a side access gate.

My options:
(1) ignore it. I did some temporary shoring up so it is now solid but unsightly (on our side).
(2) just get on and fix it along the lines of what I have thought
(3) seek out the deeds and confirm boundary ownership before lifting a finger (not even sure where to start on this)
(4) tell him it's clearly his fence and he can fix it
(5) attempt a 50:50 joint venture (chances are low that he'll engage, but I might be surprised)

Any other ideas? Input? Suggestions? Will my fence repair plan work? I work full time and weekends are pretty busy so if I were to take it on (which I am not averse to) it would have to wait until I have the time and weather to do it.


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## vickster (17 Jan 2020)

Based on my very limited knowledge - I believe if, as you look at your property it's to the left it's yours...if to the right it's theirs (as it's to the left of their property). 
I could be entirely wrong as this is at odds with your inkling!

Around the re-building no idea - I'd pay someone to do it (as I do pretty much for anything house related!)


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## figbat (17 Jan 2020)

I had the same 'rule of thumb' in mind but I gather that it differs by property and the deeds are the only truth.


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## Shearwater Missile (17 Jan 2020)

I would say that it is your neighbours fence because the posts are his side. How would the occupier of your property fit posts on your neighbours property ? I would say this regardless of whether it is left side or right side. If the posts were central ie slot in fencing then that may be a different story. We have just had a new fence which is featherboard with arris rails and the posts are on our side so really there is no dispute. Unless your deeds say otherwise and somebody did a naughty and went on the neighbours to install them. People seem reluctant to get fences repaired as is evident near us. One further point, don`t bother with wooden posts anymore and tell the neighbour that too ! Hope you can get it sorted amicably.
I should have added that whoever fitted the fence would have needed access to your property to nail the fence in position.


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## johnblack (17 Jan 2020)

I always thought the right and courteous thing to do with a boundary fence you own is to give your neighbour the finished side.


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## twentysix by twentyfive (17 Jan 2020)

johnblack said:


> I always thought the right and courteous thing to do with a boundary fence you own is to give your neighbour the finished side.


Yep - that's my understanding. So it is neighbour's. But Deeds are the only sure fire way of knowing. 

So another option is to fix it and send him the bill


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## classic33 (17 Jan 2020)

http://www.boundary-problems.co.uk/boundary-problems/fences.html


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## BoldonLad (17 Jan 2020)

I would tend toward the "fence posts on his side, his fence" approach., unless the deeds say otherwise.

But, in the interests of peace and harmony, I think, personally, I would opt to buy a fence post, and, with neighbour, one dry and sunny day, fix it, perhaps, with a couple of cans to oil the wheels, so, to speak.

You never know, you might even end up liking each other.


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## bikingdad90 (17 Jan 2020)

I wouldn’t bother replacing, instead stick a new post next to the existing one, the two posts will strengthen the fence better.


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## Phaeton (17 Jan 2020)

C is the only advisable option, if you own the house you should have the deeds somewhere, if it is mortgage then your mortgage company will have them. Or if it is fairly modern or you have moved within the past 5 years the deeds are held by the land registry, you can contact them regarding it. Although if he has the posts & you have the nice side of the fence it's likely to be yours.


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## Rusty Nails (17 Jan 2020)

bikingdad90 said:


> I wouldn’t bother replacing, instead stick a new post next to the existing one, the two posts will strengthen the fence better.



Could be tricky if the fence is set in concrete just below the surface.


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## bikingdad90 (17 Jan 2020)

Rusty Nails said:


> Could be tricky if the fence is set in concrete just below the surface.


 could set it a foot or two apart?


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## Rusty Nails (17 Jan 2020)

bikingdad90 said:


> could set it a foot or two apart?



Agreed. But that could be tricky because of difference in gaps between adjacent fence posts. Not insurmountable but tricky. Will take just a minute to check if it is set in concrete.


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## raleighnut (17 Jan 2020)

I'd say it was the neighbours due to the 'good side out' factor but as others have said checking the deeds is the only way to be sure.


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## PK99 (17 Jan 2020)

Repair spur is cheapest and easiest.

https://images.app.goo.gl/sbKw8Vp4RnvAQtcTA


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## Levo-Lon (17 Jan 2020)

bikingdad90 said:


> I wouldn’t bother replacing, instead stick a new post next to the existing one, the two posts will strengthen the fence better.



As said if its on the left looking at your house its yours but chech boundaries .
I haven't heard of it being on the right.
A bottom fence can be more of a hassle but rule of thumb is good towards neighbours so you would be the owner.

Only time you may have the rails your side and it still be the neighbours is if your side is full of bushes and sheds ect so it cant be railed and boarded from your side.
I have one done this way but the neighbour paid for the fence and i put it up.


The post is what the rails are nailed too.
It would work and be a far quicker fix.

OP, this requires a 2foot deep hole, 1 8 foot post and a bag of post crete.
Cost around £20-£25 max.
Pop off 2 feather boards, dig hole, set post, nail or screw post to rails from boarded side, replace feather boards, get on with life.

Or he does it, you have to do this from his side Ideally or you need to remove 5 boards so you can climb through to dig it.


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## vickster (17 Jan 2020)

Levo-Lon said:


> As said if its on the left looking at your house its his.
> I haven't heard of it being on the right.
> A bottom fence can be more of a hassle but rule of thumb is good towards neighbours so you would be the owner.
> 
> ...


My inkling is the oppsite, left = it's yours, quite possibly not correct though


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## Tilley (17 Jan 2020)

Look at your deeds. If the boundary ownership is defined it will be marked with a T mark. The side which has the head of the T denotes the boundary ownership. If the boundary has no T mark then the boundary ownership is joint and all costs are shared.


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## the snail (17 Jan 2020)

vickster said:


> My inkling is the oppsite, left = it's yours, quite possibly not correct though


It's not true. Generally there's no rule that says you have to have a fence, or on which side you should have one. If the fence is on your property, then it's up to you what you do with it. By convention, the posts go on the inside not the outside, but so long as it's on your property, it's up to you. If you're ok that the fence is within his property, then the most I'd do would be to offer to help him repair it at his expense. Mending a fence post can be hard work, and I've got better things to do than go out in the cold and rain and do their job for them. Sometimes you can do a temporary repair by banging some angle iron down the corner of the post and screwing it to the post.


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## figbat (17 Jan 2020)

OK, so I found the original deeds from when the house and estate were built. It does mention that I am responsible for the upkeep of any boundary erection placed on that boundary _by the transferee_ (that being the original developer). However, it is very clear that this is not the original fence and it is placed within the boundary of the neighbour. It looks like a previous occupant of the neighbour’s house has decided they wanted a nice fence and put one up around their whole garden. This means that the fence is wholly on their property and the original boundary erection is essentially gone.

as far as I am concerned it’s either:

(1) their fence on their land, so they fix it, or...
(2) my fence, meaning the land it is on is mine, so thank-you-very-much I’ll rebuild the fence the other way round.

What I won’t accept is that it is somehow my fence on their land so I must fix it. If they want to collaborate then I’m up for that, but I suspect they are not technically capable and I’m not getting a pro in. If the post was my side I’d just do it and I wouldn’t have even thought about who ‘owned’ it.


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## raleighnut (17 Jan 2020)

figbat said:


> OK, so I found the original deeds from when the house and estate were built. It does mention that I am responsible for the upkeep of any boundary erection placed on that boundary _by the transferee_ (that being the original developer). However, it is very clear that this is not the original fence and it is placed within the boundary of the neighbour. It looks like a previous occupant of the neighbour’s house has decided they wanted a nice fence and put one up around their whole garden. This means that the fence is wholly on their property and the original boundary erection is essentially gone.
> 
> as far as I am concerned it’s either:
> 
> ...


I've a story that i'll post but it's Friday night and I'm a bit pi55ed


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## Drago (17 Jan 2020)

vickster said:


> Based on my very limited knowledge - I believe if, as you look at your property it's to the left it's yours...if to the right it's theirs (as it's to the left of their property).


That's an old wives tale, urban myth, fairy tale, call it what you will. They can and go either side (mine is on the right, and part of it blew down yesterday too! ). The deeds will clearly indicate who is responsible for maintaining the boundary, and that doesn't necessarily mean a wall or fence, but can simply mean ensuring no person or animal crosses it. Again, deeds and any associated covenants will clear that up, and is the sort of thing any prospective homeowner should take note of when the surveys and searches are done (but no one ever does).


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## classic33 (17 Jan 2020)

figbat said:


> OK, so I found the original deeds from when the house and estate were built. It does mention that I am responsible for the upkeep of any boundary erection placed on that boundary _by the transferee_ (that being the original developer). However, it is very clear that this is not the original fence and it is placed within the boundary of the neighbour. It looks like a previous occupant of the neighbour’s house has decided they wanted a nice fence and put one up around their whole garden. This means that the fence is wholly on their property and the original boundary erection is essentially gone.
> 
> as far as I am concerned it’s either:
> 
> ...


If the current fence is entirely on someone else's property, you face the possibility of any replacement fence being moved back to the actual boundary making your garden smaller.


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## Levo-Lon (17 Jan 2020)

vickster said:


> My inkling is the oppsite, left = it's yours, quite possibly not correct though




Yes, i seem to have crossed my arms, ive edited it, thanks.

Tho its not as per original post as the fence is not on the boundary its on the neighbouring land so completely his problem. The neighbours that is.

That said he doesn't have to repair it and it would be your responsibility to keep a pet dog on your land and not the neighbours. If that was the case for the fence repair..


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## figbat (17 Jan 2020)

Yep, considered this. If so it will be a few inches.

I have also discovered that there is no obligation to fence or otherwise enclose your property. And as pointed out above, you need to disconnect the boundary from the boundary feature. The boundary is a conceptual line between two properties that nobody ‘owns’. The boundary feature is whatever material object is installed one side or other of it.


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## figbat (17 Jan 2020)

No pets involved. A couple of kids but they are largely tame.


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## oldwheels (22 Jan 2020)

A fence or wall is not necessarily a boundary. I once had to walk with a property surveyor round quite an extensive and complicated area. We had the title deeds with us and discovered that many boundaries did not correspond to walls or fences. Over the years when new walls or fences were put up the person doing it " stole " a few yards of neighbouring land and nobody challenged it or even noticed at the time hoping we presumed that the increase in area would eventually be accepted.


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## Salar (22 Jan 2020)

Drago said:


> That's an old wives tale, urban myth, fairy tale, call it what you will. They can and go either side (mine is on the right, and part of it blew down yesterday too! ).



Correct, fence ownership can be any side or no side. Our present house built down a lane was the first of four properties built and we are responsible for all fences and boundaries around our property.


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## All uphill (22 Jan 2020)

The only thing I can add to this is to suggest you work to avoid any risk of this turning into a neighbour dispute.

If the wobbly fence bothers you, but not your neighbour, then you may want to do a quick repair(putting in a prop for example) and not stress about it.

It's great to have good relations with your neighbours and can become awful if not. When you come to sell you may be asked about neighbour disputes by the prospective buyers.


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## raleighnut (22 Jan 2020)

oldwheels said:


> A fence or wall is not necessarily a boundary. I once had to walk with a property surveyor round quite an extensive and complicated area. We had the title deeds with us and discovered that many boundaries did not correspond to walls or fences. Over the years when new walls or fences were put up the person doing it " stole " a few yards of neighbouring land and nobody challenged it or even noticed at the time hoping we presumed that the increase in area would eventually be accepted.


Yep, we had a dispute over a fence with a neighbour, he'd slathered his side with a mix of creosote and old engine oil to the point where there were puddles of this toxic mix on the concrete our side. This had made our cats extremely ill not to mention the black paw prints all over the carpet. I told him I would be cutting the fence down and burning it. He then countered by saying it was his fence and to support this gave me a copy of the plans for his concrete Garage showing it was 2 foot from the boundary line when built, unfortunately the fence was 33 inches from his Garage by my Lufkin* tape measure so I thanked him for proving that the fence was in our garden and I could do whatever I wanted with it. He took it down sharpish when my mate came round with his Chainsaw that I'd asked to borrow.

* Lufkin tape measures are 'de rigeur' in the site joinery/shop-fitting/exhibition world, a bit like Estwing leather handled hammers and 'De Walt' cordless drills.


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## raleighnut (22 Jan 2020)

raleighnut said:


> * Lufkin tape measures are 'de rigeur' in the site joinery/shop-fitting/exhibition world, a bit like Estwing leather handled hammers and 'De Walt' cordless drills.





View: https://youtu.be/bzJFOKnm9vQ


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## fossyant (22 Jan 2020)

Our side fence is ours - we put it in when we moved in as the neighbour wouldn't - it was a quality one that lasted 23 years, and we just slotted in new panels last year when the newer neighbours were out - they must have thought, wow, a new fence. 

If you suspect the neighbour can't repair it, I'd just do it, as potentially it could bring down more in another high wind situation.


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## Drago (22 Jan 2020)

raleighnut said:


> View: https://youtu.be/bzJFOKnm9vQ



That's a masculine looking tape measure. I have no need for one, but still want one badly.


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## PaulSB (22 Jan 2020)

It's a fence post. £10 possibly plus one post spike, about £8. Bang the post spike in, cut the post to length, screw fence to post. Shouldn't take more than 90 minutes and £20.

Life is too short.


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## figbat (23 Jan 2020)

Neighbour has replied after a brief silence - they have admitted it looks like the fence is on their land and have asked for permission to access our garden to assess it. Not sure he realises how the fence is built, as he wants to see the condition of the posts from our side but as it’s a continuous arris rail fence all you can see our side is an unbroken run of featheredge boarding. I’ve said he’s welcome to have a look.

I would gladly fix it myself but I simply can not get at the post - the work would have to be from their side. Besides, I don’t react well to the way it was assumed I’d fix what was clearly his fence. He is looking at the paperwork and deeds but not at the actual fence itself.


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