# Performance Plateau - Help...



## Upstream (16 May 2013)

Hi all,
I'm hoping that someone may be able to provide some guidance... A few short years ago when I started road cycling, I would struggle to maintain 10mph over a 15 mile route. What I found was by riding once or twice each week I quickly improved to where 10mph felt comfortable and at a stretch I could push around 12mph. I have continued to progress and now with a bit of effort I regularly do rides of around 35 miles (with an average of around 1,100 feet of ascent) at 15.5 average speed. I'm happy with that but here lies my problem...

No matter what I do, I seem to have hit a performance plateau and I can't seem to break that avg 15.5mph over 35 miles. I have been at this level for at least 6 or 7 months now and despite cycling most weekends right throughout the winter, and using a spin bike for 3 sessions each week - I just seem to be maintaining that level.

In terms of diet, I'd say I'm a healthy eater. I don't smoke or drink and I get plenty of sleep at night. That having been said I'm also mid 40's so not exactly a spring chicken ;-)

I don't go to the gym and to be honest the thought of that isn't at all appealing but I have ridden some sportives up to 75.5 miles and been ok.

Any ideas or do I just need to accept the fact that I've reached my max performance level and that it won't get any better than this?

Thanks.


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## Sittingduck (16 May 2013)

Ride more miles and more regular rides, might be my first suggestion. Hard to improve performance much if you're only going out at weekends. Can you get out on the road at least 3 or 4 days a week and vary what you are doing - longer rides, hily rides, shorter fast efforts? You say that you do spinning but are not a gym member - do you mean solo turbo sessions at home or something? What is your weight like?


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## VamP (16 May 2013)

I'm in my mid forties, and strongly disagree that you have hit your genetic ceiling.

Tell me if I am wrong, but I wager that you do all your rides at roughly the same effort. It's a sure fire way to build the highest of plateau's. The way to improve is to shock your system, in an ever growing pattern of overload and recovery.

The best return on your riding time will be to introduce a couple of sessions of 2x20 minutes per week. You should go as hard as you can continuosly sustain for the whole 20 minutes, take 5 minutes easy riding and go again. Rest on the following day. Have three hard weeks, followed by an easier week. The next block of three hard weeks should be harder than the previous block.

Change things around every six week or so. When you feel fatigued, rest properly. When you are on a training ride, go hard. Develop some long, and medium term goals to work towards. Lose weight if you can.

Above all ride more. Build up to 150 - 200 miles per week.

This is generic advice that will benefit 90% of people on a plateau. If you want more specific advice, you will have to tell me a lot more about what you are doing during your session, the volume and intensity , and some more information about yourself.


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## Rob3rt (16 May 2013)

All we know is, you ride a bike a bit! What do you do with your time spent on the bike?

If you just bimble about, can you realistically expect to get good at anything other than bimbling?

If you want to get fast, you need to learn to suffer!


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## Upstream (16 May 2013)

Hi guys,
Thanks for the info. To answer a few questions;
Weight wise I can't do much really. I'm 78 kilos which is heavier than most of the guys I ride with but I'm quite tall too (6ft 2 inches). With the spinning - I bought a spin bike about 6 months ago and use it at home. I try to vary things - ie sometimes try to concentrate on cardio, other times on legs. I usually spend one hour per session on the spin bike although when I push really hard, it may be 30 mins.

I guess when I'm out on my weekend rides, I do feel as though I'm "bimbling about" at around 15 mph - the problem is I'd like to be able to go faster but to do that, at the moment at least, I'd need to reduce the distance otherwise I'd find myself shattered and miles away from home ;-)


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## VamP (16 May 2013)

What's your riding history? How many miles total, this year, weekly.

What would you like to do?

Increase both volume and intensity. Do this gradually, so that you don't end up ''shattered miles from home''.

This never happens BTW. When you feel too fatigued to continue at the higher intensity, just reduce intensity.


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## bornagainst (16 May 2013)

There is a huge amount of improvement to come if you train right and train hard... Don't give up because you think you're old.

One of the 'old fella's' I ride with is 55ish and last weekend did a wet and blustery 75 mile sportive (3000ft climbing) with an 18mph average speed.. He taught me a lesson!

Keep on it, and you'll improve.


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## Rob3rt (16 May 2013)

Upstream said:


> Hi guys,
> Thanks for the info. To answer a few questions;
> *Weight wise I can't do much really. I'm 78 kilos which is heavier than most of the guys I ride with but I'm quite tall too (6ft 2 inches)*. With the spinning - I bought a spin bike about 6 months ago and use it at home. I try to vary things - ie sometimes try to concentrate on cardio, other times on legs. I usually spend one hour per session on the spin bike although when I push really hard, it may be 30 mins.
> 
> I guess when I'm out on my weekend rides, I do feel as though I'm "bimbling about" at around 15 mph - the problem is I'd like to be able to go faster but to do that, at the moment at least, I'd need to reduce the distance otherwise I'd find myself shattered and miles away from home ;-)


 
I don't know about your build (weight doesn't really tell you that much, you could be all muscle at that weight, or you could be skinnyfat), if your build is anything like me, I would say that getting lighter is a viable option, but not necessary and it could be of detriment if you lose too much raw power, I am taller (6' 3") and lighter (75-76kg) and could go lighter, so for your height, build permitting there is definitely scope for reduction. However, I don't really think you ought to be worrying about a kg or two at your current level of fitness. Aerobic gains will eclipse anything you can do to you body weight at this stage.

Re. your bimbling, it could be said that if you aren't hurting, you aren't anywhere close to your limit! If you can have a conversation while riding then you are most certainly not trying hard enough! But this is not necessarily bad, should you choose for this ride to be your base endurance ride each week and save the real pain for the spinning machine.

What do you do on the spinning machine in your 3 sessions? Possibly we can suggest some changes you can make that will help stimulate improvement without leaving you a jibbering wreck.

If you want the weekend road ride to be a hard ride, rather then take an our and back tyre route, plot a circuit around your home or a train station (or passing a few stations on the way) so you can bail if you are completely spent.

BTW, don't knock the 40+ brigade  My club mate is >40 and he managed to beat a young professional rider who is a world record setting pursuit rider in a 10 TT the other week with an average speed of 29.5 mph!


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## Hip Priest (16 May 2013)

Instead of riding the whole route at a steady pace, why not trying throwing in a few hard efforts? Pick out a couple of challenging hills on your route, and attack them as hard as you can.

That's what worked for me.


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## Upstream (16 May 2013)

Hi again guys and thanks for the continued advice. In terms of distance, at the moment I'm averaging around 65 miles per week. Earlier in the year (January I think) during a Strava challenge I pretty much doubled that but instead of getting faster, all I found was that my thighs would hurt all the time; on or off the bike.

I'd like to get to an average of 18mph and to be honest I don't even know if this is at all achievable although I did manage to get from 10 to 15mph pretty quickly. I should perhaps also clarify that on flat I can cruise along quite quickly without fatigue, it's the hills that seems to get me. Don't get me wrong, I don't stop and get off the bike but my speed drops off significantly and living in quite a hilly area, the hills knock my average speed quite a bit.

I'd describe my build as being closer to a long distance runner rather than a cyclist - if that makes sense. I'm only lightly muscled so in terms of power output - it's probably not that great and whilst I ride a 39 / 52 chainset with 12 - 27 on the rear, I spend most of my time spinning on the smaller chain ring and that's where I'm most comfortable.

On the spin bike I usually try to alternate between cardio and legs. A typical session may be 1 hour, listening to music with a fast tempo and with a relatively light tension, spinning at 90+rpm with bursts for 1 minute of 95+rpm. This is interspersed with 1 or 2 minute high tension, out of the saddle "climbs". Sometimes if I'm feeling quite fresh I'll do anything from 2 to 5 minutes out of the saddle at high tension (when I refer to high tension I mean where the tension is such that if I remain seated, I can no longer turn the pedals at all).

On flat sections I can sit in the low 20's - the only problem is that I run out of flat section before I run out of steam so I'm not sure if I could keep that going for as long as it feels that I'd be able to.

I guess I'm just out of ideas as to what I need to do to continue the improvement. I have heard of the laws of diminishing returns and perhaps that's what's kicking in here. I have a full time job and a family too so if I'd need to train for huge amounts of time each week to get to 18mph, maybe I'll need to revise my goal somewhat.

What do you think...?


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## ColinJ (16 May 2013)

One thing that doesn't seem to have been mentioned is fuel - i.e. calories. Are you sure that you are not just running out of energy when the going gets tough? Try 300 Cals an hour of sports drinks while you are riding and see if that makes any difference.


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## Rob3rt (16 May 2013)

Upstream said:


> Hi again guys and thanks for the continued advice. In terms of distance, at the moment I'm averaging around 65 miles per week. Earlier in the year (January I think) during a Strava challenge I pretty much doubled that but instead of getting faster, all I found was that my thighs would hurt all the time; on or off the bike.
> 
> *It is called DOMS and it is natural and normal for you to feel this way when fatigued. Furthermore becoming fatigued is an essential part of over reaching. Additionally, by the very mechanism of over reaching and recovering, you would not realise fitness gains in the time scale you seem to be expecting. You don't get fitter and faster as you pile on the pressure, you get fitter and faster when you recover, i.e. in order to get fitter and faster you must consistently over-reach to stress your body, then recover. Seems you don't like to over-reach!*
> 
> ...


 
Got to be honest here........ I think the issue stems from a reluctance to endure discomfort! If your legs ache, so what, it is just a bit of soreness, it will pass. It is transient!


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## DWiggy (16 May 2013)

If my legs aren't hurting i've not been trying hard enough and my legs are constantly hurt!! (but every ride for me is done at full boar) I commute 10 miles each way, 6 days a week with a longer Saturday ride and really give it every day, strava segments keep me really interested .
When I first started I was a wreck but I kept going and now my body has adjusted the only side effects now are a massive appetite and sore legs....love it!


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## MrJamie (16 May 2013)

I found messing about with Strava helped me break a little bit of a plateau with speed, setting some good segments on areas I ride and trying to improve, some very short some 10minutes or so, but it meant that some of my typical say 30 mile rides were a fairly constant effort level and others were more like intervals. In the week I sometimes cycle one of my 10k running routes, about 6 1/2 miles, which only takes 20-25mins so is quite easy to fit into an evening. I think what I'm trying to say is rather than repeating the same programme at the same intensity, finding ways to stretch yourself and as Rob says make yourself hurt and your body should adapt.

Also be wary of comparing speed with people on different roads, terrain, bikes, weather etc etc.


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## Upstream (16 May 2013)

Rob3rt said:


> Got to be honest here........ I think the issue stems from a reluctance to endure discomfort! If your legs ache, so what, it is just a bit of soreness, it will pass. It is transient!


 
Hi again...

Maybe I haven't quite explained what I'm experiencing completely so thanks for sticking with me on this...

When I'm out doing my rides, I do definately suffer, especially going up hills and I do push as hard as I can. In January when I had more than doubled my miles and my legs constantly ached, I could have lived with that except that my legs ached but I didn't get any faster - In fact at one point I actually got slower and posted within a thread on this forum where someone else was experiencing "burning" legs all the time. I'm all for pushing myself but where I've got a bit lost is that nowadays, even when pushing myself, I just can't seem to see any performance gains. My goal is to be able to average 18mph over 35 miles not on the flat (I'm pretty certain that I could do that easily enough now) but with an average of 1,100 feet of ascent (which is pretty representative of the hilly terrain locally).

Is what you may be suggesting that I need to push myself hard and have my legs ache for a longer period of time than say one month before I'll see any additional improvement? I guess what I'm trying to do is maximise my effort (in terms of increasing my speed) rather than just putting in effort that isn't targetted correctly and therefore doesn't result in performance increases.

I suppose what I'm looking for is some sort of magic formula where someone on the forum says "ok you need to do xyz and if you do that, in x amount of weeks you'll hit 18mph average over 35 miles and riding hilly terrain" ;-)

It all seems very technical and that's even before we start talking about the bike!


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## Rob3rt (16 May 2013)

Upstream said:


> Hi again...
> 
> Maybe I haven't quite explained what I'm experiencing completely so thanks for sticking with me on this...
> 
> ...


 
As I said before, you won't get faster in the short term, you give the impression you are expecting to see your speed increase as you go, this is unlikely to happen given the fact you are building fatigue, so in fact you may end up going a bit slower and struggling a bit toward the end of the build. You will get faster once you recover from that, during the recovery period. Adaptation happens when you rest and recover.

Re. the making your legs ache for more than a month comment, no, that is not what I am saying, I am saying that you must overload yourself then recover, when you overload, you will more than likely ache! It is quite normal to train hard and progressively for maybe 3 weeks, then back it off for one week. The purpose being you build fatigue over 3 weeks, pushing your limit and probably feeling tired and rather fed up by the end of the final few days of the build, then back off the workload a bit so you can recover in the 4th week. So of you plotted the workload over a longer, you would get a sawtooth sort of pattern with an emphasis on the rising edge (say 3 weeks of progress, 1 week rest) and an overall increasing trend. The length of the overload and recovery cycles will vary person to person, this is something each person needs to figure out what is optimal for them, some people can take more overload than others, some take longer to recover, etc.

I would consider 35 miles with only 1100ft ascent as flat!


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## ColinJ (16 May 2013)

How steep are the hills and what gear do you use on them? How is your breathing on the hills?

I remember someone suggesting this:

If your legs hurt but your heart and lungs feel okay then you are overgeared and should spin a lower gear instead
If your legs are okay, but you are gasping for breath, try a higher gear
If your legs hurt, you are gasping for breath, and your heart is beating like crazy - you are at your limits!
If everything feels okay but you'd like to go faster - try harder! 
Are you sure that your position on the bike is right?


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## 400bhp (16 May 2013)

MAN UP


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## Becs (16 May 2013)

sod the technical stuff - are you single?


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## Andy_G (17 May 2013)

I used to average 14 mph until i just started pushing myself(ie change up a few gears or do sprint intervals), ive been doing this for a few months and i can averge 18-19 mph and thats me being 97kg and with a ruck sack, just keep pushing yourself and it will come.


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## Upstream (17 May 2013)

Andy_G said:


> I used to average 14 mph until i just started pushing myself(ie change up a few gears or do sprint intervals), ive been doing this for a few months and i can averge 18-19 mph and thats me being 97kg and with a ruck sack, just keep pushing yourself and it will come.


Hi Andy,
Thanks for the encouragement - Can you tell me a little more about your activity? What sort of miles per week for example?


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## Upstream (17 May 2013)

Becs said:


> sod the technical stuff - are you single?


 
Thanks for that comment - It probably won't make me go any faster but it bought a smile to my face and reminded me that cycling is meant to be fun and not all about pain


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## Andy_G (17 May 2013)

I used to ride 4 miles each way 5 days a week, but now I average 100 miles a week an I've joined a club recently. 
I've only been riding a year properly, and the longest ride I've done is 90 miles, honestly mate if I can do it you can.


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## Ningishzidda (17 May 2013)

x, Take a week off.
y, Eat moderately.
z, Watch the Giro on Eurosport.


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## Upstream (22 May 2013)

UPDATE...
I went out on Sunday and decided to try something a little different. Usually I ride in the smaller (39 tooth) chainring for about two thirds of the time and use the larger one (52 teeth) for the other third. I reversed that ratio and tried (it was really tough sometimes though) to select a higher gear and get out of the saddle when going up hills. The particulars of the ride were; 32.4 miles, 1,323 feet of climbing, 15.9mph. I should also mention that I made myself stay in the drops for around 50% of the time (usually I am on the tops around 75% of the time).

Unfortunately sinusitis and a course of antibiotics means that I haven't been able to get on the bike since then but my goal is to do 100 miles per week every week for three weeks, with an easier week every fourth week. I'll also be double checking to ensure that I'm getting sufficient pre (and during) ride nutrition. I also have some soy protein isolate that I'll take as directed (within 20 minutes of each ride).

Thanks for the advice all - I'll update again one way or the other ;-)


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## Garz (22 May 2013)

Spent ages reading all this thread and now I am tired. Will wait for the next instalment Upstream!


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## MrGrumpy (22 May 2013)

Personally I think Strava is a pretty good tool to use in terms of interval training, I think its helped me to increase my average. My only issue is I maybe try too hard everyday to get PR on the segments, rest is the key here. BTW no expert and some will disagree with me as well, thats fine but I do read alot about interval training, sprinting etc, Strava fits the bill does it not?


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## VamP (23 May 2013)

MrGrumpy said:


> Personally I think Strava is a pretty good tool to use in terms of interval training, I think its helped me to increase my average. My only issue is I maybe try too hard everyday to get PR on the segments, rest is the key here. BTW no expert and some will disagree with me as well, thats fine but I do read alot about interval training, sprinting etc, Strava fits the bill does it not?


 

If you can get series of segments of same duration, with same rest periods between them, maybe... As long as the durations match your intended training goals.

Realistically, that's not going to happen. By far the most effective intervals for increasing threshold fitness (cornerstone for cycling) are 2x20. If you can find a 20 minute segment and do that twice with a 5 minute break, you will get value out of it.


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## MrGrumpy (23 May 2013)

toiling to find a 20 min section other than the 6.5 mile stretch on the way home, which is fairly uninterrupted. The part of my commute either side is stop start. Suppose I should do this more at the weekends on the longer runs.


edit :- just quickly posted this at work and should of read it first, was a bit of a mess!


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## Ningishzidda (23 May 2013)

MrGrumpy said:


> toiling to find a 20 min section other than the 6.5 mile stretch on the way home, which is fairly uninterupted. The aprt of my commute either side is stop start. Suppose I should ride do this more at the weekends on the longer runs.


Find a 7 mile section about 20 miles from home. You have to warm up and cool down.


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## Garz (23 May 2013)

MrGrumpy said:


> Personally I think Strava is a pretty good tool to use in terms of interval training, I think its helped me to increase my average. My only issue is I maybe try too hard everyday to get PR on the segments, rest is the key here. BTW no expert and some will disagree with me as well, thats fine but I do read alot about interval training, sprinting etc, Strava fits the bill does it not?


 
Agree on the strava assisting intervals. On some days though when the wind is full on headwind I dont bother on a section and treat it as a rest day. TL and wind can ruin a strava effort.


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## Rob3rt (23 May 2013)

Ningishzidda said:


> Find a 7 mile section about *20 miles* from home. *You have to warm up and cool down.*


 
You don't need to (and probably shouldn't) be warming up for 20 miles though!


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (24 May 2013)

Rob3rt said:


> You don't need to (and probably shouldn't) be warming up for 20 miles though!


54 miles


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## Ningishzidda (24 May 2013)

Rob3rt said:


> You don't need to (and probably shouldn't) be warming up for 20 miles though!


Whatever you feel best. They're YOUR engines. Who am I to instruct you how to warm up YOUR engines?
Spend six months developing YOUR optimum warm up routine


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## VamP (24 May 2013)

Left turn circuits are your friend


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## Ningishzidda (24 May 2013)

VamP said:


> Left turn circuits are your friend


Because you can cheat by using the Coriolis effect.


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## ColinJ (24 May 2013)

VamP said:


> Left turn circuits are your friend


Right turn circuits for interval training? (Sprinting into gaps in the traffic at junctions!)


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## VamP (24 May 2013)

ColinJ said:


> Right turn circuits for interval training? (Sprinting into gaps in the traffic at junctions!)


 
very dangerous

plus 2x20s are all about sustained power output, not surges


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## Rob3rt (24 May 2013)

He was taking the piss!


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## VamP (24 May 2013)

Rob3rt said:


> He was taking the ****!


 
my bad

I left my sidi's at a crit last night, and haven't been myself all morning fretting about them.


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## ColinJ (24 May 2013)

Er, yes, I do prefer LH loops, but most of all I prefer quiet loops where LH/RH doesn't matter because there isn't any traffic!



VamP said:


> I left my sidi's at a crit last night, and haven't been myself all morning fretting about them.


Ouch!

I've been using SPDs on my best bike since I got too unfit to ride up steep hills on its higher gearing - SPD shoes are much better for walking in!

When I am fit enough again to tackle 15-20% in a 39/29 gear then I'll put my Look pedals back on and get my Sidi shoes out of storage!

I hope that some kind person has found your shoes and is looking after them for you. (Not permanently though!)


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## VamP (24 May 2013)

ColinJ said:


> Er, yes, I do prefer LH loops, but most of all I prefer quiet loops where LH/RH doesn't matter because there isn't any traffic!
> 
> 
> Ouch!
> ...


 
Yes they have been found, hence the smiley earlier  Thanks for the kind thought.


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## Upstream (10 Jun 2013)

Hey guys...
I've been putting in some miles since last time and my speed has crept up into the 16 mph range now. Interestingly I did the Brewood Cycle Challenge last Saturday (63 mile sportive) and although I was feeling during the last 8 miles or so, I hung in there and after finishing it with an average speed of 16.1mph I decided to try something a little crazy so rode another 39 miles so that I could hit my long term goal of riding 100 miles during a day ;-)

Surprisingly my legs weren't too bad afterwards and I think that something that may have helped was earlier that week doing a short but high intensity 15 mile loop along some trails on my mountain bike - boy did that get the legs burning.


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