# Electrical question....



## Fab Foodie (7 Mar 2022)

New home (under construction) has a trendy island in the kitchen with an induction hob. 
Now I asked for some 13A sockets to be added to the island and am told it's not possible.
Surely not?


----------



## Low Gear Guy (7 Mar 2022)

Does that mean it would be against the regulations or too difficult at this stage of construction?


----------



## twentysix by twentyfive (7 Mar 2022)

It is certainly possible according to the Laws of Physics


----------



## PeteXXX (7 Mar 2022)

There must be electricity there for the hob, but it's likely to be 30amp? If that cable runs via a conduit the might be room to run another flex through it, too.


----------



## Dirk (7 Mar 2022)

Have they got electricity in Crediton yet?


----------



## Supersuperleeds (7 Mar 2022)

We've got an induction hob on an island and have two double sockets on said island. Our house was built in the 60's (I think)


----------



## fossyant (7 Mar 2022)

Taka de p....


----------



## avsd (7 Mar 2022)

Likely to be a issue with space at the consumer unit and RCBs. I think sockets should be on a separate circuit to the cooker. 

PS I am not a qualified electrician


----------



## Sallar55 (7 Mar 2022)

Fab Foodie said:


> New home (under construction) has a trendy island in the kitchen with an induction hob.
> Now I asked for some 13A sockets to be added to the island and am told it's not possible.
> Surely not?


Depends upon the kitchen floor is it tiled, underfloor heating or a concrete slab. Anything is possible all depends how much you are willing to pay, the above will be spendy if you change a spec. Just pray it's a suspended wooden floor then it can be sorted for minimum cost.


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (7 Mar 2022)

Fab Foodie said:


> New home (under construction) has a trendy island in the kitchen with an induction hob.
> Now I asked for some 13A sockets to be added to the island and am told it's not possible.
> Surely not?


It's totally possible if there's a spare way in the board, otherwise they would have to break the socket ring and feed it over and I'm not confident that's "code"


----------



## Fab Foodie (7 Mar 2022)

Sallar55 said:


> Depends upon the kitchen floor is it tiled, underfloor heating or a concrete slab. Anything is possible all depends how much you are willing to pay, the above will be spendy if you change a spec. Just pray it's a suspended wooden floor then it can be sorted for minimum cost.


Tiled, concrete, underfloor heating. I think we're buggered in that case...


----------



## Fab Foodie (7 Mar 2022)

twentysix by twentyfive said:


> It is certainly possible according to the Laws of Physics


That's my thinking...but is it allowed?


----------



## Fab Foodie (7 Mar 2022)

Dirk said:


> Have they got electricity in Crediton yet?


Just, it's causing quite a stir!


----------



## Low Gear Guy (7 Mar 2022)

avsd said:


> Likely to be a issue with space at the consumer unit and RCBs. I think sockets should be on a separate circuit to the cooker.
> 
> PS I am not a qualified electrician


Not always. It is possible to get a cooker switch unit which includes a single 13A socket outlet.


----------



## Alex321 (7 Mar 2022)

Fab Foodie said:


> New home (under construction) has a trendy island in the kitchen with an induction hob.
> Now I asked for some 13A sockets to be added to the island and am told it's not possible.
> Surely not?


How would they be fitted? If flat on the surface, I would imagine that wouldn't be allowed due to risk of spills from pans on the hob. If there is a vertical surface behind the hob, then again, they are not allowed directly above the hob, but have to be a certain distance away horizontally.

If you wanted them on a vertical surface below the worktop/hob, then that should be OK, provided they have the routing available for the cables.


----------



## Trickedem (7 Mar 2022)

You could run a fused spur off the cooker circuit to a double socket. Perfectly safe, but may not be within the regs.


----------



## newts (7 Mar 2022)

Dirk said:


> Have they got electricity in Crediton yet?


They still use 110v DC in Kirton & gas lighting. 
Pop up sockets for island units have been available for many years.
https://www.toolstation.com/search?q=popup socket
Developers are always reluctant on requests for anything remotely outside their normal scope.


----------



## Once a Wheeler (7 Mar 2022)

Sockets are not allowed within a certain distance of a tap or sink, so if these are part of your island that might be the reason. Having said that, there is seldom a case where a way cannot be found within the regulations to get a socket within reach. I suspect a lazy electrician. Get the regs and bone up on them: you will find a way to get your socket legally in place.


----------



## slowmotion (7 Mar 2022)

Trickedem said:


> You could run a fused spur off the cooker circuit to a double socket. Perfectly safe, but may not be within the regs.


That's what I would do.


----------



## jowwy (8 Mar 2022)

Fab Foodie said:


> Tiled, concrete, underfloor heating. I think we're buggered in that case...


so how are they wiring the hob in the island, if the above is correct??


----------



## Noodle Legs (8 Mar 2022)

Whoever told you that is talking utter bolleaux. I had an island fitted in 2019 as part of a refurb and I’ve got sockets for the dishwasher and wine cooler, signed off and certified as per Part P.

Bathrooms are pretty much the only place where you can’t have socket outlets as per section 701 of wiring regs (classified as a special location) but even then so long as they are outside of specific zones they may be permitted. There may be other scenarios where these can’t be installed. Kitchen islands aren’t one of them.


----------



## Fab Foodie (8 Mar 2022)

The issue seems to be that the only power cable is the one designed for the Induction hob. No other will be fitted. I just want a double socket under the woktop for me ninja foodie to operate under the cooker hood!
I don't see why (maybe after the build) a fused spur can't be done. 
I understand why builders won't do it, but if legal am happy to have it done after.


----------



## icowden (8 Mar 2022)

Fab Foodie said:


> The issue seems to be that the only power cable is the one designed for the Induction hob. No other will be fitted. I just want a double socket under the woktop for me ninja foodie to operate under the cooker hood!
> I don't see why (maybe after the build) a fused spur can't be done.
> I understand why builders won't do it, but if legal am happy to have it done after.


I found this that might give some insight...

https://www.mybuilder.com/questions/v/10937/hob-spur-for-socket

The issue seems to be that if you have a 32A circuit for the hob, you can't just spur off an electric socket without putting something in between to ensure it doesn't overload.


----------



## Alex321 (8 Mar 2022)

Fab Foodie said:


> The issue seems to be that the only power cable is the one designed for the Induction hob. No other will be fitted. I just want a double socket under the woktop for me ninja foodie to operate under the cooker hood!
> I don't see why (maybe after the build) a fused spur can't be done.
> I understand why builders won't do it, but if legal am happy to have it done after.


They will be fitting an isolating switch somewhere for the hob. Provided that is somewhere easily accessible, you can get those with an incorporated socket, and I can't see why your builder/electrician wouldn't fit one of those. I haven't seen one with an incorporated double socket, so I suspect that may not be allowed.

Of course if the isolating switch is hidden away in a cupboard, than it will be less useful for what you want.


----------



## stephec (8 Mar 2022)

Why not create that feeling that you're still at work by dangling a 16A socket from a junction box in the ceiling? 😂


----------



## Fab Foodie (8 Mar 2022)

stephec said:


> Why not create that feeling that you're still at work by dangling a 16A socket from a junction box in the ceiling? 😂


The thought had occurred if I could run it off the cooker hood supply and dangle it down... :-)


----------



## T4tomo (8 Mar 2022)

I think without chasing another conduit for a 13amp cable into the floor you are buggered sir.

do you have to put the hob hood etc etc on the island?

can you put the cooking gubbins against a wall and use the island for a prep and dining surface?


----------



## Ian H (8 Mar 2022)

It does sound a lot more complicated than when I last did any wiring. https://www.homeownershub.com/uk-diy/13a-spur-from-30a-circuit-87047-.htm


----------



## twentysix by twentyfive (8 Mar 2022)

Fab Foodie said:


> The issue seems to be that the only power cable is the one designed for the Induction hob. No other will be fitted. I just want a double socket under the woktop for me ninja foodie to operate under the cooker hood!
> I don't see why (maybe after the build) a fused spur can't be done.
> I understand why builders won't do it, but if legal am happy to have it done after.


Yep - retro fit as you suggest. Safe and fine irrespective of "Rulez is Rulez". Not too difficult for the DiY chap either if your local professional is reluctant. Just make sure the fuse is protecting the rated capacity of the cable you use. eg single "13A mains" cable is 16A. Double "13A" mains is 32A with the MCB consumer unit approach but a fused spur can come with a melt in the cylinder old style job - 13 A max. Suspect one double socket only needs the 13A max approach for safety and simplicity . But I don't know the modern regs.


----------



## Milkfloat (8 Mar 2022)

Certainly more of a case of "won't" rather than "can't". It would be significantly easier to do at the same time as the induction hob wiring, it may be worth while getting snotty/friendly (whichever you think will work) with the builders before they start.


----------



## slowmotion (8 Mar 2022)

The circuit breaker on the consumer unit will be rated to protect the cable serving the induction hob. The fuse in the fused spur will protect the wiring to the additional socket. The worst that can happen is that you plug two electric kettles into the new socket, turn all the rings on the hob on, and exceed the breaker rating on the consumer unit. The breaker will trip and your boiled egg won't cook but your house won't burn down. Relax.


----------



## lazybloke (8 Mar 2022)

Alex321 said:


> They will be fitting an isolating switch somewhere for the hob. Provided that is somewhere easily accessible, you can get those with an incorporated socket, and I can't see why your builder/electrician wouldn't fit one of those. I haven't seen one with an incorporated double socket, so I suspect that may not be allowed.
> 
> Of course if the isolating switch is hidden away in a cupboard, than it will be less useful for what you want.


Yeah, every cooker point I've ever seen has a single 13amp socket incorporated, so you definitely have a (minimal) solution. 








Although... what did Fabbers say was the cooker cable rating? Maybe it has capacity to run sockets and the hob? To comply with regs it would proabably need to tee into a fuse then into the sockets. Time for a detailed discussion with the sparks. 

I ran a hefty 65amp (10mm) cable to to my cooker point. My cooker arrived with a 13amp plug!


----------



## bikingdad90 (8 Mar 2022)

If they will not fit a socket, would they go for something like this
https://www.toolstation.com/axiom-p...iczc4QpSQ0gcQgvvx1MaAlJzEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

It’s a pull up socket that could be wired to a plug elsewhere.


----------



## figbat (8 Mar 2022)

lazybloke said:


> Yeah, every cooker point I've ever seen has a single 13amp socket incorporated…


Not any more!


----------



## Lookrider (8 Mar 2022)

Obviously I don't know how the canker gur ths induction is run under the concrete floor etc 
But there is usually a good access or conduit 
So would it be plausible to stop back 3" of the outer insulation on the existing cable and same on another new cable ....connect then together by twisting the earth neutral lives together neatly then tape up smoothly 
Tape the new 13A twin n earth to this and pull them through from the consumer unit end 
If tbe hidden access holes are too tight ( doubt that ) you can always just pull them back so nothing is lost


----------



## keithmac (9 Mar 2022)

I wonder if it has to be part of the socket ring main on new builds and that's why they won't do it?.

Our cooker circuit is not RCD protected iirc so hanging a socket off that is a no-no (but it's an old house).


----------



## lazybloke (9 Mar 2022)

figbat said:


> Not any more!
> View attachment 634434
> 
> 
> ...


Not only is half your cooker point missing, but you have a monstrously heavy SMEG kettle. How you cope with it?


Edited to fix the quote


----------



## keithmac (9 Mar 2022)

Wondered what you were on about but you seemed to have quoted inside a quote 🤔


----------



## figbat (9 Mar 2022)

lazybloke said:


> Not only is half your cooker point missing, but you have a monstrously heavy SMEG kettle. How you cope with it?


It’s not a kettle, it’s a milk frother used as a hot chocolate maker. 😎


----------



## lazybloke (9 Mar 2022)

figbat said:


> It’s not a kettle, it’s a milk frother used as a hot chocolate maker. 😎


Ah, looked like one of these heavy things.
We were given one as a freebie. Posh friends noticed and waxed lyrical. We replaced it a cheapie from Amazon!






Don't know how I quoted inside a quote. Will have a go at editing it.


----------



## figbat (10 Mar 2022)

lazybloke said:


> Ah, looked like one of these heavy things.
> We were given one as a freebie. Posh friends noticed and waxed lyrical. We replaced it a cheapie from Amazon!
> 
> View attachment 634599
> ...


A bit of decadence chez figbat…


----------



## rogerzilla (11 Mar 2022)

I wouldn't want to drink from something creamy-coloured and labelled Smeg


----------



## Lozz360 (11 Mar 2022)

Lookrider said:


> Obviously I don't know how the canker gur ths induction is run under the concrete floor etc
> But there is usually a good access or conduit
> So would it be plausible to stop back 3" of the outer insulation on the existing cable and same on another new cable ....connect then together by twisting the earth neutral lives together neatly then tape up smoothly
> Tape the new 13A twin n earth to this and pull them through from the consumer unit end
> If tbe hidden access holes are too tight ( doubt that ) you can always just pull them back so nothing is lost


^^^Please don’t do this!^^^

There are a number of possible reasons why the builder said it is not possible to spur a socket off the cooker circuit. As already been mentioned, the cooker circuit is probably not rcd protected whereas the socket will have to be. You say the house is still under construction? As long as the kitchen floor hasn’t been screeded yet, it should be little bother to run a conduit under the floor and extend the ring main. By extending the ring main as opposed to running a spur will make any future additions on the island possible.


----------



## Lookrider (11 Mar 2022)

Lozz360 said:


> ^^^Please don’t do this!^^^
> 
> There are a number of possible reasons why the builder said it is not possible to spur a socket off the cooker circuit. As already been mentioned, the cooker circuit is probably not rcd protected whereas the socket will have to be. You say the house is still under construction? As long as the kitchen floor hasn’t been screeded yet, it should be little bother to run a conduit under the floor and extend the ring main. By extending the ring main as opposed to running a spur will make any future additions on the island possible.


If tbe 2 extra T&E cables you pull through can be linked into the socket ring main that may be near the consumer unit or any other socket where there is access... .
That's not spurring off tbe cooker feed 
I only say to pull to the consumer unit as the feed will go direct to cooker/consumer .its hard not seeing it but yes I guess you have to believe the electrician 
If this would not work then fair enough


----------



## Lozz360 (11 Mar 2022)

Lookrider said:


> If tbe 2 extra T&E cables you pull through can be linked into the socket ring main that may be near the consumer unit or any other socket where there is access... .
> That's not spurring off tbe cooker feed
> I only say to pull to the consumer unit as the feed will go direct to cooker/consumer .its hard not seeing it but yes I guess you have to believe the electrician
> If this would not work then fair enough


I may of misunderstood what you were saying. You appeared to be suggesting that OP strips 3” of insulation off the cable to the hob and twist the conductors of the new twin and earth cable (these conductors will be solid not stranded) to the existing cables and tape the cables together!

I don’t believe that @Fab Foodie is stupid enough to do that and I would be insulting him by suggesting he might think about it. 

If I have misunderstood then I apologise. If I haven’t misunderstood then I suggest you delete it.


----------



## Lookrider (11 Mar 2022)

Lozz360 said:


> I may of misunderstood what you were saying. You appeared to be suggesting that OP strips 3” of insulation off the cable to the hob and twist the conductors of the new twin and earth cable (these conductors will be solid not stranded) to the existing cables and tape the cables together!
> 
> I don’t believe that @Fab Foodie is stupid enough to do that and I would be insulting him by suggesting he might think about it.
> 
> If I have misunderstood then I apologise. If I haven’t misunderstood then I suggest you delete it.


No need for apologies ..probly my grammar 

But just to help 
The cooker cable is existing and will be used for a draw string ONLY 

Tape 2 T&E cables staggered but neatly along a REPLACEMEMT cooker cable tape ends to form a smooth "ramp "

So that the existing cooker cable can effectively be used as a draw string the 3 solid cable be twisted together fir 3 or 4 "so as it does not come loose 
Tape up this joint to remove any edges 

Pull the existing cooker cable through toward the consumer unit and away from the concrete floor in kitchen 

You will now have another cable for the cooker AND two T&E to join on to the ring main at the nearest accessible socket with tbe other 2 ends providing fir the new kitchen socket 

The only bug bear being if tbe joists are tight holes and don't allow the 3 cables through ?
But if that's the case just pull it back and your back to square one


----------



## Lookrider (11 Mar 2022)

Maybe a picture helps


----------



## Sallar55 (11 Mar 2022)

Fist up is the cable 6mm or 10mm T&E and that would be impossible to add two 2.5 mm T&E cables for the ring main using the domestic conduit sizes. Conduit would need to be massive, as any bend reduces capacity. As an ex spark if you want a decent job the only way is rip up floor and bury a 50 by 50mm plastic trunking or a large pvc bath waste pipe to island. That would put the build back and builders don't like setbacks as time costs money that needs to be passed on.


----------



## newts (11 Mar 2022)

I've been in a few houses on this site & AFAIK the cable will likely be in a small pvc conduit set in concrete on the ground floor.


----------

