# Van trying to swerve into a cyclist...



## DrSquirrel (5 Jun 2010)

*Not my video*, Gaz pointed it out to me a bit ago...


View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94vzorR8fFM



The slap imo is just out of annoyance, I reckon I could have slowed down enough, maybe just shouted a bit... though I still don't reckon that excuses the van driver to basically encourage the cyclist to come up the inside to swerve into them...

And obviously, not paying road tax is the excuse to put someone in danger...


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## gaz (5 Jun 2010)

I can see the van driver is probably going to pull out, so i would have slowed down and just let him go. But on having a helmet camera and knowing that you are often looking and concentrating on something else and you don't expect people to pull out in situations like this.

The driver is blatantly trying to get the cyclist to undertake him, so that he can swerve into his path, and it happens. i wouldn't have gone anywhere near the inside of that vehicle after he swerved from the cyclists slap. Sometimes you can reason with people, this driver is not one of them and best to avoid at all costs!


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## mr_cellophane (5 Jun 2010)

Amazing, just because he shouted "go on then" !
The girl was no better throwing a bottle at him. The police should be able to charge both of them with something.


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## shippers (5 Jun 2010)

She's assaulted him by throwing the can. He's obviously got dangerous driving, possibly some sort of attempted assault thingy too. Nasty arse.


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## DrSquirrel (5 Jun 2010)

It was the driver that threw the bottle!!

Download the HD copy, and step through it

Right hand holding bottle + wheel
Left hand on gear stick

He then throws the bottle...!!


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## gaz (5 Jun 2010)

Definitely the driver that threw it.


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## slowmotion (5 Jun 2010)

The driver is a maniac. It's a bit worrying really.


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## Number14 (5 Jun 2010)

The girl didn't throw the bottle it was the driver. I did slow down significantly from 30kph + and was braking when I encouraged him to "get a move on" to about 10-15kph and later, as he was almost in the opposite lane, I couldn't overtake him but was very cautious of going past. The slap was to fend him off and let him know I was still there. 

Reported to HM constabulary.


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## gaz (5 Jun 2010)

Number14 said:


> The girl didn't throw the bottle it was the driver. I did slow down significantly from 30kph + and was breaking when I encouraged him to "get a move on" to about 10-15kph and later, as he was almost in the opposite lane, I couldn't overtake him but was very cautious of going past. The slap was to fend him off and let him know I was still there.
> 
> Reported to HM constabulary.



Best of luck getting anywhere with it. this is truly disgusting behaviour from the driver.


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## DrSquirrel (5 Jun 2010)

You couldn't overtake him at that point anyway because of the zigzag lines/traffic lights.

It's definitely worth a try, specially considering he was holding the wheel with half a hand and threw something at you... the Police are probably going to moan about you "antagonising" the driver initially.


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## ianrauk (5 Jun 2010)

What do you mean 'Trying'...? He bloody well was..


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## DrSquirrel (5 Jun 2010)

ianrauk said:


> What do you mean 'Trying'...? He bloody well was..



I meant _trying _as trying to get the cyclist to come up the inside so he can do it... which makes it is premeditated.


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## BentMikey (5 Jun 2010)

Mate, you've got to press for assault charges on that one. I'm not an expert, but there are a few coppers on here who could let you know.


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## Number14 (5 Jun 2010)

I'm no  on my commutes and I refrained from swearing at him but I was expecting a .


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## Number14 (5 Jun 2010)

Welcome to Gosport !


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## ufkacbln (5 Jun 2010)

drsquirrel said:


> You couldn't overtake him at that point anyway because of the zigzag lines/traffic lights.
> 
> It's definitely worth a try, specially considering he was holding the wheel with half a hand and threw something at you... the Police are probably going to moan about you "antagonising" the driver initially.



Only if you show it!


Do you have a "snap and send" for the local paper?


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## DrSquirrel (5 Jun 2010)

Cunobelin said:


> Only if you show it!
> 
> 
> Do you have a "snap and send" for the local paper?



You mean only show the second half of the video to the Police? I think they would be asking you about the segment before, and will be suspicious if you made excuses why you couldn't...


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## Number14 (5 Jun 2010)

On a lighter note


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## Sheffield_Tiger (5 Jun 2010)

BentMikey said:


> Mate, you've got to press for assault charges on that one. I'm not an expert, but there are a few coppers on here who could let you know.



+1

THat goes beyond dangerous or inattentive driving in so many ways


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## clarion (5 Jun 2010)

Unbelievably unpleasant. Hope you get him charged.

But I do suspect that reg won't show up...


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## slowmotion (5 Jun 2010)

That van looks way too new for the reg not to show up, surely?


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## hackbike 666 (5 Jun 2010)

As soon as you whack their van car or whatever you are asking for trouble.IMHO


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## DrSquirrel (5 Jun 2010)

clarion said:


> Unbelievably unpleasant. Hope you get him charged.
> 
> But I do suspect that reg won't show up...



Reg is clean... (insured, taxed, correct colour/type etc).


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## AndyCarolan (5 Jun 2010)

Incredible 

I'm not sure that the slap on the side of the van helped at all no matter what the intention was. Will be interesting to see if you can get anywhere with this, its shocking behavior from er Silver Van Man


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## hackbike 666 (5 Jun 2010)

AndyCarolan said:


> Incredible



I've seen worse...that's just handbags...When you meet some real nutter that just looks lame.


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## ufkacbln (5 Jun 2010)

clarion said:


> Unbelievably unpleasant. Hope you get him charged.
> 
> But I do suspect that reg won't show up...



Shows up as:



> Vauxhall Vivaro 2700 Cdti Swb (Panel Van)


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## ufkacbln (5 Jun 2010)

AndyCarolan said:


> Incredible
> 
> I'm not sure that the slap on the side of the van helped at all no matter what the intention was. Will be interesting to see if you can get anywhere with this, its shocking behavior from er Silver Van Man



What slap?

Fending yourself off from the side of the van when it pulled into your path surely?


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## thomas (5 Jun 2010)

hackbike 666 said:


> As soon as you whack their van car or whatever you are asking for trouble.IMHO




+1. All but one time of hitting someone's vehicle I have regretted it. I've only done it a few times, 2 of those times I stopped and just let them pass, the other I managed to cycle down a little cycle only bit and lost them and the final time was fine as the guy stopped and was a bit annoyed but not particularly threatening.

The driver in the video was a plank and being really, really stupid. However, I don't think the hitting was completely justified. It seemed to be more out of annoyance than any thing else. Not saying that's completely wrong, but never advisable.


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## clarion (5 Jun 2010)

Good. I've just come across too many that don't. Go get them.


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## hackbike 666 (5 Jun 2010)

thomas said:


> +1. All but one time of hitting someone's vehicle I have regretted it. I've only done it a few times, 2 of those times I stopped and just let them pass, the other I managed to cycle down a little cycle only bit and lost them and the final time was fine as the guy stopped and was a bit annoyed but not particularly threatening.
> 
> The driver in the video was a plank and being really, really stupid. However, I don't think the hitting was completely justified. It seemed to be more out of annoyance than any thing else. Not saying that's completely wrong, but never advisable.




Amazing fact is I have never done it.

If it's bad usually it's a blast of the horn but before that it used to be the odd expletive which could also set them off as well.


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## DrSquirrel (5 Jun 2010)

I'd view a slap as you would a horn... use in an emergency to let someone know you are there, and not to use it in aggression.





Cunobelin said:


> Shows up as:



Already said it's clean 



> * Make VAUXHALL*
> *Model VIVARO 2700 CDTI SWB*
> Transmission & fuel type MANUAL DIESEL
> Body Type PANEL VAN
> ...


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## HLaB (5 Jun 2010)

I don't think I'd hit a van, even though the plonker deserved it but I'd be to worried I'd hurt my hand, fall off, etc


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## hackbike 666 (5 Jun 2010)

drsquirrel said:


> I'd view a slap as you would a horn... use in an emergency to let someone know you are there, and not to use it in aggression.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The funny thing is when I blow the horn it isn't normally taken badly...I get very few negative reactions which has surprised me immensely.Also it can be used in different ways.

Oh yeah a cabbie did stop once...he did get offended when I blew it at him...We had a discussion about it...Mainly I wasn't happy about the amount of space he gave me...to which he asked "how much do you want?"....To which I replied "Lots!".


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## dondare (5 Jun 2010)

If, when the van pulled out, you'd just slowed down and given them time rather than shouting and banging then he'd probaby have just continued on his way (and you on yours) without anyone realizing at that time what a dangerous prat he was capable of being.


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## barnesy (5 Jun 2010)

Terrible behaviour from the driver but that could have ended alot worse mate, i know he was egging you on but i would never went to the near side of that van after all of that, even the first swerve to his near side, could you not have anticipated him moving out from the junction and either slowed down or went for an overtake?


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## HLaB (5 Jun 2010)

I'm a wee bit confused (as always ;-) ) as to the timing of the slap, was it before or after that first swerve. It was maybe just self defence to alert the pr@t to their presence before they were crushed. I know I've done that once with a HGV and my driver took it well when I explained.


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## DrSquirrel (5 Jun 2010)

Just to be clear, this isn't my video.

Apparently it's *Number14*'s video.


I know if I couldn't brake in time I would have went around the left (whilst still trying to stop) because the van was too far right, though I reckon I could've stopped behind it.
Though that is just my oppionion on seeing the video, I know how realistically the camera just shows where your head is pointing not where your eyes or attention is focused, and that speed (before and deceleration) is not easy to gauge.


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## Crankarm (5 Jun 2010)

Why didn't number 14 either hang back and let him bugger off or alternatively quickly draw along side and inform him that the manoeuvre the van driver had just performed and subsequent behaviour was not big or clever and in fact dangerous, and to warn him that it had been recorded on camera, from the same camera that was still recording him and what ever he planned to say. Should he apologise then he wouldn't be reported to the police. Chucking the bottle a s.5 Public Order Offence for sure.


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## hackbike 666 (5 Jun 2010)

TBH I see that a lot of time and am not surprised if it happens.


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## Crankarm (6 Jun 2010)

hackbike 666 said:


> TBH I see that a lot of time and am not surprised if it happens.



Not to you I hope HB ?


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## hackbike 666 (6 Jun 2010)

Crankarm said:


> Not to you I hope HB ?



Yeah same thing....they see me and go anyway....No big deal really.

I think yesterday was worse...that ped...he didn't even bother looking.

Still the good thing with that is he didn't panic when I approached.


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## Twenty Inch (6 Jun 2010)

The driver's a plank, but Number14 hasn't helped his case at all. I wouldn't have shouted initially, I wouldn't have gone up the inside at any stage, and I wouldn't have entered into a discussion about road tax.


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## Guvnor (6 Jun 2010)

User3143 said:


> On the approach I would have been out another foot or so. Would have probably overtaken the van as it pulled out.
> 
> *Does not excuse the driver at all, drivers like this one are amongst the very worst. I hope he crashes into a tree and some point in time and burns to death.*




+1


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## Domestique (6 Jun 2010)

Only just seen this.
I am not sure about the rights and wrongs about where you should be on the road etc, but there is some good advice in this thread about that.
If this was me I would take a copy of the video to the Police. They might not do anything, then again they might. 
That van driver is a liability.


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## hackbike 666 (6 Jun 2010)

Twenty Inch said:


> The driver's a plank, but Number14 hasn't helped his case at all. I wouldn't have shouted initially, I wouldn't have gone up the inside at any stage, and I wouldn't have entered into a discussion about road tax.



I may have shouted more on spur of the moment depending on how bad it was.Normally a blast on the horn is sufficient.Probably not the best place to discuss road tax either.


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## ufkacbln (6 Jun 2010)

A clear "Watch out" is fine and gains witnesses!


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## ComedyPilot (6 Jun 2010)

As an ex-copper I will add my tuppence-worth. 

In any confrontational situation, a copper will look to see if anyone tried to avoid or walk away from the situation. IMO banging on the van (instead of hanging back and letting the prat go) was the wrong thing to do. That said, driving on the offside of the road slowly trying to entice a cyclist to the near-side of the van then swerving into the kerb is dangerous driving.

Let's wait and see, huh?


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## AndyCarolan (6 Jun 2010)

User3143 said:


> On the approach I would have been out another foot or so. Would have probably overtaken the van as it pulled out.
> 
> Does not excuse the driver at all, drivers like this one are amongst the very worst. I hope he crashes into a tree and some point in time and burns to death.



hey, what do you have against trees?


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## J4CKO (6 Jun 2010)

ComedyPilot said:


> As an ex-copper I will add my tuppence-worth.
> 
> In any confrontational situation, a copper will look to see if anyone tried to avoid or walk away from the situation. IMO banging on the van (instead of hanging back and letting the prat go) was the wrong thing to do. That said, driving on the offside of the road slowly trying to entice a cyclist to the near-side of the van then swerving into the kerb is dangerous driving.
> 
> Let's wait and see, huh?




I would hope the Police would see a 20 pound vehicle being intimidated by one that weighs two tonnes, but I agree that antagonizing Knuckle Dragging idiots in vans is asking for bother, would hope at the very least he gets a talking to.


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## DrSquirrel (6 Jun 2010)

ComedyPilot said:


> As an ex-copper I will add my tuppence-worth.
> 
> In any confrontational situation, a copper will look to see if anyone tried to avoid or walk away from the situation. IMO banging on the van (instead of hanging back and letting the prat go) was the wrong thing to do. That said, driving on the offside of the road slowly trying to entice a cyclist to the near-side of the van then swerving into the kerb is dangerous driving.
> 
> Let's wait and see, huh?



What sort of path would you take though regarding possible prosecutions? Realistically of course...

If this was me - I would have said that it was either go up the left or run into the back of the van, and then hit the van and shout to let them know you were there.


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## ComedyPilot (6 Jun 2010)

As I stated, it could have been avoided if the cyclist had hung back. It also could have been avoided if the van driver (prat) had accelerated away after pulling out on the cyclist (the road in front of the van was clear - no traffic holding it up). That said, swerving into the kerb and throwing bottles at people is dangerous driving, assault and Section 59 (using a vehicle in an anti-social manner). 

Plenty for a traffic bobby to get their teeth into here. I would personally try and make sure traffic cops get the complaint, as opposed to beat bobbies. Traffic cops love this sort of thing, beat bobbies have their hands full of domestics, shop thefts, petty criminal damage etc.


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## Riding in Circles (6 Jun 2010)

I agree that the sensible thing would be to hang back and let the van go but let's face it, once we get up to speed it is a pain having to start again because some moton cannot use their peanut brain.


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## thomas (6 Jun 2010)

ComedyPilot said:


> As an ex-copper I will add my tuppence-worth.
> 
> In any confrontational situation, a copper will look to see if anyone tried to avoid or walk away from the situation. IMO banging on the van (instead of hanging back and letting the prat go) was the wrong thing to do. That said, driving on the offside of the road slowly trying to entice a cyclist to the near-side of the van then swerving into the kerb is dangerous driving.
> 
> Let's wait and see, huh?




I think that would be a fair assessment.



drsquirrel said:


> What sort of path would you take though regarding possible prosecutions? Realistically of course...
> 
> I*f this was me - I would have said that it was either go up the left or run into the back of the van*, and then hit the van and shout to let them know you were there.



The thing is though, bikes have two brakes, so to stop quickly it pays to use both hands so that you can stop/slow as quickly as possible...by hitting the van you are in fact slowing down your ability to slow down 

I don't think that it was necessary to hit the van and that would probably be taken into account for the rest of the driver's behaviour.

The van driver is a plank...and I am not saying I wouldn't of hit his van. I certainly have done things which probably enticed the situation due to red mist...but it can be good to look at these objectively still, as I think the Police would take hitting the van into account as a factor.


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## Crankarm (6 Jun 2010)

ComedyPilot said:


> As I stated, it could have been avoided if the cyclist had hung back. It also could have been avoided if the van driver (prat) had accelerated away after pulling out on the cyclist (the road in front of the van was clear - no traffic holding it up). That said, swerving into the kerb and throwing bottles at people is dangerous driving, assault and Section 59 (using a vehicle in an anti-social manner).
> 
> Plenty for a traffic bobby to get their teeth into here. I would personally try and make sure traffic cops get the complaint, as opposed to beat bobbies. Traffic cops love this sort of thing, beat bobbies have their hands full of domestics, shop thefts, petty criminal damage etc.



Although the vehicle is being driven slowly and inconsiderately it is clearly being used to obstruct the road. How about obstruction CP? Throwing the bottle a Public Order Offence?

And he turns right off the road a short distance up . In my experience it always pricks such as this, pulling out then, turning off 5 seconds later that caused grief. I had a bad run in with a SVM just like Number14 in March, but worse. He pulled over got out and waited for me to cycle by then tried to knock me off. Attempted assault. Same type of van as well and an ignorant git driving it. I would have had a gorgeous pic of him back inside his van giving me a double fingered salute, but for having my camera switched on but unfortunately on the incorrect setting . That was deffers a s.5 Public Order Offence. But Mini drivers and 4x4s were the worst in my experience. Always with a mobile glued to their ears or texting whilst driving turning suddenly in front of you without indication, pulling out or dangerously close passing. Twats the lot of them. Glad I don't commute by bike any more. Stress levels have really dropped.


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## DrSquirrel (6 Jun 2010)

thomas said:


> I think that would be a fair assessment.
> 
> The thing is though, bikes have two brakes, so to stop quickly it pays to use both hands so that you can stop/slow as quickly as possible...by hitting the van you are in fact slowing down your ability to slow down
> 
> I don't think that it was necessary to hit the van and that would probably be taken into account for the rest of the driver's behaviour.



If you are beside the van when you tap it, surely you can suggest you were braking until that point.

I did say though that I reckon I could have braked in time, I was just saying how I would have explained my actions if this was me.


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## Crankarm (6 Jun 2010)

Throwing the bottle - littering, fly tipping?


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## ufkacbln (6 Jun 2010)

drsquirrel said:


> If you are beside the van when you tap it, surely you can suggest you were braking until that point.
> 
> I did say though that I reckon I could have braked in time, I was just saying how I would have explained my actions if this was me.



I hate to repeat myself... are you sure this was a tap and not the rider fending himself off the side of the vehicle

The two could easily be confused


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## DrSquirrel (6 Jun 2010)

That is the point I was making


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## HLaB (6 Jun 2010)

Cunobelin said:


> I hate to repeat myself... are you sure this was a tap and not the rider fending himself off the side of the vehicle
> 
> The two could easily be confused


Yip, I find it confusing the sequence of events; was it the cyclist defending themselves/ alerting the driver to their presence or was it a petulant (sorry I can't think of a better word) reaction to a piece of cr@p driving.


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## Mike! (7 Jun 2010)

I've just had much the same thing with a car pulling out on me (from the right side of the road).

It was wet and i was braking hard, in the end i banged very hard on the passenger window as she clearly hadn't seen me / didn't care and i was rapidly running out of room.

Unfortuantley i don't have a camera but am considering getting one. Shame as i'd have put it straight into the police!

Back to this incident though - clearly an offence (or two!) has been commited but i'm not sure i'd have put myself alongside that nutter!


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## jonny jeez (8 Jun 2010)

Mike! said:


> I've just had much the same thing with a car pulling out on me (from the right side of the road).
> 
> It was wet and i was braking hard, in the end i banged very hard on the passenger window as she clearly hadn't seen me / didn't care and i was rapidly running out of room.
> 
> ...



same for me today..Was on the loud bike this morning and had a chap try to push me out of my lane (in the pouring rain) at about 40mph.

stopped 30 seconds later in traffic at which point I happened to get in front of him and...would you belive it...managed to stall my bike.... took me ages to get her started again...and of course his honking and shouting just distracted me still further.

we ended up having a "chat" at the next lights, but it did make me chuckle at the time.


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## Jezston (8 Jun 2010)

jonny jeez said:


> stopped 30 seconds later in traffic at which point I happened to get in front of him and...would you belive it...managed to stall my bike.... took me ages to get her started again...and of course his honking and shouting just distracted me still further.



Haha I'm just picturing that now, standing over your bike in the middle of the road kicking the pedals trying to get it to start  "Sorry mate! I'll get it started again in a sec! Yeah ... yeah look beeping and shouting isn't going to get the engine going again ... (kick kick) come on you little bugger..."


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## Vikeonabike (8 Jun 2010)

@


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## snails pace (8 Jun 2010)

I have only just seen this thread, and as I am planning to start commuting on my bike soon, am a little concerned that there really are idiots on the road like that van driver.

Main thing is that number 14 was not hurt by this toerag.

I hope the police can do the driver for something, as they have video evidence.

Maybe a court trip and hefty fine would make other toerags think twice...then again maybe not


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## dondare (8 Jun 2010)

snails pace said:


> I have only just seen this thread, and as I am planning to start commuting on my bike soon, am a little concerned that there really are idiots on the road like that van driver.
> 
> Main thing is that number 14 was not hurt by this toerag.
> 
> ...



But you can also see how easily No.14 could have kept out of trouble. Give other road users the time and space they need and don't shout at them or bang on their vehicles.
What goes around &c.


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## hackbike 666 (8 Jun 2010)

I still don't get this banging on cars thing...Is it classed as road rage?

Though it's rare I see it on my commute.


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## dondare (8 Jun 2010)

hackbike 666 said:


> I still don't get this banging on cars thing...Is it classed as road rage?
> 
> Though it's rare I see it on my commute.



Those who do it will tell you it's self defence. 


Si vis pacem, para bellum


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## HLaB (8 Jun 2010)

dondare said:


> Those who do it will tell you it's self defence.
> 
> 
> Si vis pacem, para bellum


I've done it once, to tell the HGV driver I was there, to prevent him crushing me against railings as he drifted into the bus lane. To be fair he took it very well and there was no stupid reaction from him.

I don't think I'd make a habit of it I'd be too scared about hurting my hand/ falling off.


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## dondare (8 Jun 2010)

HLaB said:


> I've done it once, to tell the HGV driver I was there, to prevent him crushing me against railings as he drifted into the bus lane. To be fair he took it very well and there was no stupid reaction from him.
> 
> I don't think I'd make a habit of it I'd be too scared about hurting my hand/ falling off.



I banged the side of a lorry once as it squashed me against a parked van. (His fault, he overtook then moved in.) 
Side of the lorry was solid steel. Didn't make a sound, driver didn't have a clue. 
Luckily the van had a bit of give in it.


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## DrSquirrel (8 Jun 2010)

hackbike 666 said:


> I still don't get this banging on cars thing...Is it classed as road rage?
> 
> Though it's rare I see it on my commute.



Consider it like usage of the horn.

Never use aggressively, only use it to let someone know you are there.





dondare said:


> But you can also see how easily No.14 could have kept out of trouble. Give other road users the time and space they need and don't shout at them or bang on their vehicles.
> What goes around &c.



Sadly if people like this go unpunished(etc), then they will carry on doing it... because it's obviously okay, surely?  Not that rapping on the van will make the van look out more carefuly next time, after all the cyclist has no right and shouldn't have even touched the van in the first place (im talking generally not in this instance). If it was a honest mistake then tapping, so long as they don't get all pissy about touching their car might make them think (for 30 or so minutes and then it all goes out the window just like after they passed their test). Otherwise something that affects them generally needs to be levied, even a letter from the Police won't bother certain people... a few points? sometimes hardly affects your insurance. A good roasting from an officer would be nice, but police officers don't exist any more, just the tall silly yellow headed ones with grey bodies.


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## dondare (8 Jun 2010)

Snap.


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## Sheffield_Tiger (8 Jun 2010)

I've done it twice.

Once a long time ago because the van was turning into me (railings to my left) and I had nowhere to go. Firm hard whack with the palm on the side. That resulted in a chase between burly thug of a WVM and a 15yo kid (me) and made me realise that it is not something to be done lightly.

Once a few months ago at a junction with a small unintentional (bad layout) pinch point - a car held back for a moment (so obviously he knew passing was unsafe) then got bored of waiting within 3 seconds and brushed me as he forced past.

This time I didn't give a whack, just a gentle rap on the side. My god I have never seen a geeky little nerk get so hot under the collar. He pulled in, then deliberately drove at another uninvolved cyclist, then blocked up the road as he stopped to argue a boring repetitive argument about "touching my car is criminal damage" yet no matter how much he said that he would, and I invited him to please do so, he just would not call the police.

In short, both times have led to confrontation. The second time..well, was it necessary? I'd suggest that drawing a driver's attention to the fact that they have just collided with me (however gently) is valid. After all, if someone just brushed their CAR, they would know about it. In the first occasion, I needed the van to stop so yes, absolutely necessary. Even though the driver then wanted to flatten me personally, rather than with his van.


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## DrSquirrel (8 Jun 2010)

I agree in the part about "attention to the fact that they have just collided", even if you did slap the car, just lie and say "I didn't hit your car, you HIT ME!".


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## hackbike 666 (8 Jun 2010)

drsquirrel said:


> Consider it like usage of the horn.
> 
> Never use aggressively, only use it to let someone know you are there.
> 
> <SNIP>



That's why I have a car horn on one bike and am seriuosly considering fitting it on a fixie...The Blackfriars Bridge Vid with the mobile phone user and the power of the horn is an absolute classic.

The horn is different to slapping someones car...Rare that I get an agressive reaction for using the horn.


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## Armegatron (9 Jun 2010)

hackbike 666 said:


> The horn is different to slapping someones car...Rare that I get an agressive reaction for using the horn.



Opposite for me. Ive had a few where cars have pulled out, or been about to pull out, and Ive gave the horn a short toot in warning to say "Im here, wait for me" - I get a load of abuse normally along the lines of "I effin seen you didnt I". 
Still, Ill continue to use the horn as Id rather get the verbal than eat bonnet.


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## DrSquirrel (9 Jun 2010)

hackbike 666 said:


> That's why I have a car horn on one bike and am seriuosly considering fitting it on a fixie...The Blackfriars Bridge Vid with the mobile phone user and the power of the horn is an absolute classic.
> 
> The horn is different to slapping someones car...Rare that I get an agressive reaction for using the horn.



I'm not not going to hit on a car just because I think they will be offended... just like I will avoid using the horn in the car unless I really think someone doesn't know im there etc.

If i've been put in a position where I feel I needed to hit a car - I don't really give a crap about their reaction, if anything mine could be worse


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## BSRU (9 Jun 2010)

mike.pembo said:


> warning to say "Im here, wait for me"


That is exactly what the horn is for, when I learnt to ride a motorbike we were advised to use the horn if in any doubt.

Drivers are usually shocked more than anything else if I use my horn, they do not expect such a loud noise, they're probably expecting a little tinkle.


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## hackbike 666 (9 Jun 2010)

mike.pembo said:


> Opposite for me. Ive had a few where cars have pulled out, or been about to pull out, and Ive gave the horn a short toot in warning to say "Im here, wait for me" - I get a load of abuse normally along the lines of "I effin seen you didnt I".
> Still, Ill continue to use the horn as Id rather get the verbal than eat bonnet.



What horn have you got?

If it is an airzound I didn't always get a positive reaction with one of those.

Also I don't really use the horn as much as I really need to.If you know what I mean.

I can go toot toot like a car horn or a constant blast.Toot toot is obviously more friendly.

I remember using it on a van at Blackfriars Bridge lights when he fell asleep at the lights and he tooted back at me...no problem and nothing aggressive...better than swearing I guess.


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## Crankarm (9 Jun 2010)

hackbike 666 said:


> What horn have you got?
> 
> If it is an airzound I didn't always get a positive reaction with one of those.
> 
> ...



Should he have been driving ?


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## hackbike 666 (9 Jun 2010)

Crankarm said:


> Should he have been driving ?



Better than falling asleep going along....Seriously you know what I mean.We are at the lights at Blackfriars Bridge and they have put a left hand filter in the light...so we are waiting there because van man hasn't worked it out that it applies to us.


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## Crankarm (9 Jun 2010)

hackbike 666 said:


> Better than falling asleep going along....Seriously you know what I mean.We are at the lights at Blackfriars Bridge and they have put a left hand filter in the light...so we are waiting there because van man hasn't worked it out that it applies to us.



So he wasn't literally asleep, away in the land of nod?


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## Armegatron (9 Jun 2010)

hackbike 666 said:


> What horn have you got?
> 
> If it is an airzound I didn't always get a positive reaction with one of those.
> 
> ...



Airzound mate. Had a similar situation where the driver infront was just stopped at the green light for ages, it was funny because my thought were beep or filter around or stop behind. Ended up just filtering around her . When I looked back she was holding up a map


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## hackbike 666 (9 Jun 2010)

mike.pembo said:


> Airzound mate. Had a similar situation where the driver infront was just stopped at the green light for ages, it was funny because my thought were beep or filter around or stop behind. Ended up just filtering around her . When I looked back she was holding up a map



Thank god...I thought she had gone senile.

Airzound is a more aggressive horn while a car horn is the norm...Then again I have had my funny and some not so funny moments...will post up the Blackfriars Bridge incident.



Crankarm said:


> So he wasn't literally asleep, away in the land of nod?



I don't actually know but im giving WVM the benefit of the doubt here.


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## Mike! (9 Jun 2010)

Regarding my incident, i honestly feel had i not have hit her passenger window (pretty hard i did too) I'd have been eating tarmac or maybe her car.

It's not to be used lightly but I know what i'd still do in the same situation.

Yes it's possibly going to get a bad reaction from the driver but what would they prefer? A bang on the window or the police asking questions about why they've just taken a cyclist out!


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## hackbike 666 (9 Jun 2010)

...and a £5 fine.


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## Mike! (9 Jun 2010)

hackbike 666 said:


> ...and a £5 fine.



£5 fine?


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## HLaB (9 Jun 2010)

Mike! said:


> £5 fine?


Yip the courts were being harsh that week.


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## Mike! (9 Jun 2010)

HLaB said:


> Yip the courts were being harsh that week.



I have obviously missed something!


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## Downward (9 Jun 2010)

drsquirrel said:


> I'd view a slap as you would a horn... use in an emergency to let someone know you are there, and not to use it in aggression.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Bloody hell I pay more VED on my car than that twonk does on his van.


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## Number14 (26 Aug 2010)

Quick update: the driver has had a police caution for assault and the road policing unit have forwarded the file to the CPS.


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## BentMikey (26 Aug 2010)

Nice one!


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## BSRU (26 Aug 2010)

That's good to hear something has been done about a seriously angry man in a van.


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## DrSquirrel (26 Aug 2010)

Any idea on charges they will pursue?


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## hackbike 666 (26 Aug 2010)

DrSquirrel said:


> I'd view a slap as you would a horn... use in an emergency to let someone know you are there, and not to use it in aggression.



If I was in a car and some tit slapped my car im sure I would get the hump as well...It's not the same as blasting the horn.

Nice one Number 14.


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## Bman (26 Aug 2010)

Good news.. That should get him to think twice before doing that again.


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## DrSquirrel (26 Aug 2010)

hackbike 666 said:


> If I was in a car and some tit slapped my car im sure I would get the hump as well...It's not the same as blasting the horn.
> 
> Nice one Number 14.



The only thing different is your view. Also you're most likely too close to your fictional cyclist.

I said how _*I*_ view it (when used properly).


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## hackbike 666 (26 Aug 2010)

DrSquirrel said:


> The only thing different is your view. Also you're most likely too close to your fictional cyclist.
> 
> I said how _*I*_ view it (when used properly).




Say what you mean, because personally I haven't got a clue what you are talking about.


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## DrSquirrel (26 Aug 2010)

You say its not the same - although I say it was my view on it, so you saying its not the same doesn't change what I said.

If you have a cyclist slap your car, you are most likely too close.


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## hackbike 666 (26 Aug 2010)

DrSquirrel said:


> You say its not the same - although I say it was my view on it, so you saying its not the same doesn't change what I said.
> 
> If you have a cyclist slap your car, you are most likely too close.



It isn't the same though...it's a more aggressive act than blowing the horn...It's almost assault...It's certainly touching someone else's property without permission and I have never done it.

I see why motorists get upset and there is no excuse for it.


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## benb (26 Aug 2010)

If an aggressive thug swings his baseball bat at you, and you use your hand to fend it off, is that "touching someone else's property without permission"?


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## hackbike 666 (26 Aug 2010)

benb said:


> If an aggressive thug swings his baseball bat at you, and you use your hand to fend it off, is that "touching someone else's property without permission"?




Haven't had that so can't say...I have had a car driven at me more than once though and haven't had to resort to banging their vehicle.Swearing yes...that gets a negative effect as well...


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## benb (26 Aug 2010)

hackbike 666 said:


> Haven't had that so can't say...I have had a car driven at me more than once though and haven't had to resort to banging their vehicle.



But surely you can imagine a scenario where that might be necessary?


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## hackbike 666 (26 Aug 2010)

benb said:


> But surely you can imagine a scenario where that might be necessary?



Why would I...it has never happened but more than once I have had aggressive acts from cars which has never lead to me banging their vehicles...Swearing yes but not that.I think they take that very personally.


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## JoysOfSight (26 Aug 2010)

hackbike 666 said:


> It isn't the same though...it's a more aggressive act than blowing the horn...It's almost assault...It's certainly touching someone else's property without permission and I have never done it.
> 
> I see why motorists get upset and there is no excuse for it.



I can see why motorists get upset too, but just because people get annoyed doesn't make something wrong.

The other day I narrowly avoided death when a builder at the site outside our flat reversed his van onto the pavement where I was waiting to cross, baby in buggy. It wasn't attempted murder, he just hadn't seen me. Of course he jumped out and started giving it all that about how if I touched his van again he'd break my jaw, but then he's hardly going to be objective about it.

So what's the deal? It's assault to bang on the van and save my child's life? Yeah right.

Obviously this anecdote is made up but the point stands. I have sometimes rapped on shoot that is alongside me and being driven into me, and long may it continue (well, if the alternative is railing death).


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## hackbike 666 (26 Aug 2010)

Fair enough life and death is an excuse but I have never had to use it.

A lot of the time it's a form of road rage.Cyclist gets upset at motorist...could be spur of the moment thing?

God I've got upset before and come out with so many expletives it's embarrassing.Not so much ow though...

If you need an example of my over reacting,my incident with the lorry was a huge over reaction..I think I lost it a bit.


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## DrSquirrel (26 Aug 2010)

If a car got too close, im not going to let it touch me, im going to hold my arm out against it to keep my (pedal/feet/body) distance away from it.

Could be road rage - although this is why I compare it to the use of the horn - if used properly its meant to be there to let others know you are there - which is exactly the reason I am talking about the slap and how they can be compared.




hackbike 666 said:


> It isn't the same though...it's a more aggressive act than blowing the horn...It's almost assault...It's certainly touching someone else's property without permission and I have never done it.
> 
> I see why motorists get upset and there is no excuse for it.



Assault? Hitting a car, regardless of how hard or if you intend to damage it is not assault.

A bike doesn't have a horn, if a car gets too close its a very good and effective way of making your presence known (which is the proper usage of a car horn). You will see that most people "slap" the car rather than punch/hit it etc, mainly to cause noise and no damage.

And I don't think there is a law against touching someone's property... even then, you can stand on someone land and you are not doing anything illegal until you are asked to leave.

What you are probably trying to say is criminal damage - and unless there is any damage, then what is going to be done about it...

The type of motorist to get slapped by a cyclist is probably the type of motorist that is already upset at having to wait 0.458 seconds to pass a cyclist before they decide they cannot be bothered to wait for that traffic island and goes for it anyway because the dirty cyclist isn't on that shared pavement system that they paid for with their road tax.....


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## Origamist (26 Aug 2010)

The only time I can recall hitting vehicles is when they drift into me during lane changing (usually because they haven't seen me) and are forcing me into the kerb. This percussive method of getting the attention of spatially unaware road users has helped me out on a few occasions. I don't use it as a retaliatory gesture though.


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## mgarl10024 (26 Aug 2010)

Hi,

Sorry if being thick, but I can't watch the video.
I clicked on the link and youtube said I needed an account. I set one up, tried again, and it says "the video is private". 

Thanks,

MG


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## HLaB (26 Aug 2010)

mgarl10024 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Sorry if being thick, but I can't watch the video.
> I clicked on the link and youtube said I needed an account. I set one up, tried again, and it says "the video is private".
> ...


If the police have got involved number 14 has probably been advised to make it private.


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## DrSquirrel (26 Aug 2010)

It's been marked as private probably to do with the CPS case above.


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## hackbike 666 (27 Aug 2010)

DrSquirrel said:


> If a car got too close, im not going to let it touch me, im going to hold my arm out against it to keep my (pedal/feet/body) distance away from it.
> 
> Could be road rage - although this is why I compare it to the use of the horn - if used properly its meant to be there to let others know you are there - which is exactly the reason I am talking about the slap and how they can be compared.
> 
> ...



I never said it was assault.

A bike doesn't have a horn except mine which does have a horn...all three bikes.TIA

As I said earlier if you banged the roof of my car I would get p155£d off because it would probably make me jump...I can see why motorists do get annoyed.


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## brokenbetty (27 Aug 2010)

hackbike 666 said:


> As I said earlier if you banged the roof of my car I would get p155£d off because it would probably make me jump...I can see why motorists do get annoyed.



Unfortunately you are right. The reality is that they have been startled by a deliberate bang as opposed to a sickening crunch and blood curdling scream so if they are rational they should be happy, but people aren't wired that way.

I think in these circumstances there is no way not to pi55 off the driver because the driver has already made the mistake. All the cyclist can do is mitigate it. The cyclist can't disappear and the driver is unlikely to realise the error was theirs, so at that point anything that happens is going to result in a pi55ed off driver.


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## magnatom (27 Aug 2010)

To be fair, you only have to look at some people the wrong way to get a reaction. This morning a van cuts in in front of me, forcing me to pull off the gas and brake. It was annoying, nothing more, so I put my hand up in a what was that gesture made a face and left it at that. We were about to join a long queue so I was getting ready to leave him for dust! 

However, that was enough to set him off. Swearing at me, saying it was unfortunate he missed me, and then swerving to stop me filtering and opening his door as if was about to come out and confront me. He backed off and I filtered past him, pointing out the camera. He was left in my dust of course! 

Yes I do have footage, and if I get a chance I'll post it. I really did nothing to deserve his rant. It was obvious he just hated cyclists, so no provocation required. Probably because I can filter!


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## hackbike 666 (27 Aug 2010)

brokenbetty said:


> Unfortunately you are right. The reality is that they have been startled by a deliberate bang as opposed to a sickening crunch and blood curdling scream so if they are rational they should be happy, but people aren't wired that way.
> 
> I think in these circumstances there is no way not to pi55 off the driver because the driver has already made the mistake. All the cyclist can do is mitigate it. The cyclist can't disappear and the driver is unlikely to realise the error was theirs, so at that point anything that happens is going to result in a pi55ed off driver.




I can't really understand this banging on the roof lark as I have never used it.I have seen it used and in my opinion it is road rage...or at least it was then.


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## gaz (27 Aug 2010)

I've banged someones roof before. I only ever do it if they pass too close and I can easily touch it. If I can touch there car, then they are not passing me at a safe distance.


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## Number14 (14 Sep 2010)

Had a phone call this morning from the police officer handling the case.

The matter went to court and the van driver pleaded guilty to driving without due consideration and received 5pts, a fine (she didn't know how much) and court costs.

No more ccomments/condemnations about me hitting the side of the van - the point is he shoulddn't have performed his maneouvre - case closed.


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## BentMikey (14 Sep 2010)

Now that is a great result!!!


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## HLaB (14 Sep 2010)

Sounds like a result number14. Sorry to comment about the hand tap thing if the court had seen it as excessively provocative the driver would have walked free, they didn't.


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## davefb (14 Sep 2010)

Number14 said:


> Had a phone call this morning from the police officer handling the case.
> 
> The matter went to court and the van driver pleaded guilty to driving without due consideration and received 5pts, a fine (she didn't know how much) and court costs.
> 
> No more ccomments/condemnations about me hitting the side of the van - the point is he shoulddn't have performed his maneouvre - case closed.



blimey, 'result' !

do you know why this incident and not any others? was it just coz it 'crossed the line' of acceptability?

was it just your video , or were there any witnesses??

still , definately looks like the camera is the 'must have' gadget


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## Origamist (14 Sep 2010)

A caution for assault and 5 points for driving without reasonable consideration is an excellent result (they don't usually opt for this charge, btw). 

Was the video used in court?


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## magnatom (14 Sep 2010)

Excellent result! 

Will you be putting the video back up?


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## gaz (14 Sep 2010)

If your video was used in court, then I think you might be the first cyclist in the uk to have 'achieved' that. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Good news.


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## hackbike 666 (14 Sep 2010)

If a car got too close, im not going to let it touch me, im going to hold my arm out against it to keep my (pedal/feet/body) distance away from it.

*Could be road rage - although this is why I compare it to the use of the horn - if used properly its meant to be there to let others know you are there - which is exactly the reason I am talking about the slap and how they can be compared.

*Sounds like it.
*

*

*Assault? Hitting a car, regardless of how hard or if you intend to damage it is not assault.*

I never said it was assault

*A bike doesn't have a horn, if a car gets too close its a very good and effective way of making your presence known (which is the proper usage of a car horn). You will see that most people "slap" the car rather than punch/hit it etc, mainly to cause noise and no damage.*

Mine do.I made it a point to fit them.

*And I don't think there is a law against touching someone's property... even then, you can stand on someone land and you are not doing anything illegal until you are asked to leave.*

Ok I will go round happy slapping cars and see what reaction I get.

*What you are probably trying to say is criminal damage - and unless there is any damage, then what is going to be done about it...*

It doesn't seem right or necessary and seems like road rage a lot of the time

*The type of motorist to get slapped by a cyclist is probably the type of motorist that is already upset at having to wait 0.458 seconds to pass a cyclist before they decide they cannot be bothered to wait for that traffic island and goes for it anyway because the dirty cyclist isn't on that shared pavement system that they paid for with their road tax.....*

That's about as bias as me saying that all taxi drivers are dodgy drivers...

Anyway congratulations on your result.


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## Number14 (14 Sep 2010)

HLaB said:


> Sounds like a result number14. Sorry to comment about the hand tap thing if the court had seen it as excessively provocative the driver would have walked free, they didn't.



It wasn't an aggresive tap - it was me warning him of my presence and fending the vehicle off.



davefb said:


> blimey, 'result' !
> 
> do you know why this incident and not any others? was it just coz it 'crossed the line' of acceptability?
> 
> ...



There was a witness in the car behind but I don't know if the police spoke to her.



Origamist said:


> A caution for assault and 5 points for driving without reasonable consideration is an excellent result (they don't usually opt for this charge, btw).
> 
> Was the video used in court?



I don't know whether the video was shown in court. The policewoman looking into the case said the guy in the van was shown it in the police station at interview. I expect that it would have been available to the court if they wanted to see it.



magnatom said:


> Excellent result!
> 
> Will you be putting the video back up?



It's back up until the comments start about "you should have stopped and let him out/not hit the van/ been more in primary/not done this/did that/breathed in" etc, at which point it will be removed again.


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## gaz (14 Sep 2010)

Number14 said:


> It's back up until the comments start about "you should have stopped and let him out/not hit the van/ been more in primary/not done this/did that/breathed in" etc, at which point it will be removed again.



just set the comments to be approved or turn comments off.


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## HLaB (14 Sep 2010)

Number14 said:


> It wasn't an aggresive tap - it was me warning him of my presence and fending the vehicle off.
> 
> It's back up until the comments start about "you should have stopped and let him out/not hit the van/ been more in primary/not done this/did that/breathed in" etc, at which point it will be removed again.




The authorities must have agreed with that 

I'd forgotten until I seen the vid again how much of a prat SVM was. It unlisted so hopefully you won't get too many stupid comments.


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## Matty (14 Sep 2010)

I too did watch that first time round, but had forgotten just how aggressive he was. Sounds like he got his just deserves, good job.


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## As Easy As Riding A Bike (14 Sep 2010)

This is an excellent result. I've followed your videos on youtube for a while, but obviously haven't been able to see this one until today. Not going to enter the 'slap' debate at all. His driving and attitude speaks for itself.


I wonder how much progress would have been made without the helmet cam footage. Any guesses?


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## Number14 (14 Sep 2010)

It's not the comments on youtube - it's the "expert" opinions that frequently appear on this forum  

Mrs police lady said that little chance of anything without an independent witness - my word against his. She reckons the video improved the odds in my favour.


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## hackbike 666 (14 Sep 2010)

Number14 said:


> It's not the comments on youtube - it's the "expert" opinions that frequently appear on this forum
> 
> Mrs police lady said that little chance of anything without an independent witness - my word against his. She reckons the video improved the odds in my favour.




I don't see my opinion as expert...I just wonder sometimes why people have to whack the roofs of cars...something I have never done in almost thirty years of cycle commuting.


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## As Easy As Riding A Bike (14 Sep 2010)

> my word against his.




A response I have had on numerous occasions from the police, not just with regard to incidents on the road, but also a theft. Not that I necessarily blame them, but it is a depressing reaction. 

Glad that a camera has proven worthwhile.


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## DrSquirrel (14 Sep 2010)

Number14 said:


> It's back up until the comments start about "you should have stopped and let him out/not hit the van/ been more in primary/not done this/did that/breathed in" etc, at which point it will be removed again.



Add some annotations saying this driver got 5pts etc


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## Origamist (14 Sep 2010)

Number14 said:


> It's not the comments on youtube - it's the "expert" opinions that frequently appear on this forum
> 
> Mrs police lady said that little chance of anything without an independent witness - my word against his. She reckons the video improved the odds in my favour.




If you're not innured to the contrariness, one-upmanship and general hypocrisy/cant that spews forth from cycling message boards you need to spend far less time cycling and far more time in CC's commuting section. 

Good to hear that the video was useful to the police and possibly the CPS.


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## 2Loose (14 Sep 2010)

Glad that your negative experience has given an aggressive and dangerous moron an even more negative experience.

(just so's you know, if I thought I could balance in that situation I would have hit the van too)


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## fossyant (14 Sep 2010)

Number14.......... very well done and very well handled............

Thank goodness the Police took it further.....TBH the guy probably saw what he did, and realised he was a complete nut case......and fessed up.......... before anything needed the court to see evidence......... it's much messier for him if he denied it...... probably went to court with 'guilty'.........


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## PBancroft (14 Sep 2010)

Number14 said:


> Had a phone call this morning from the police officer handling the case.
> 
> The matter went to court and the van driver pleaded guilty to driving without due consideration and received 5pts, a fine (she didn't know how much) and court costs.
> 
> No more ccomments/condemnations about me hitting the side of the van - the point is he shoulddn't have performed his maneouvre - case closed.



Well done.


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## CopperBrompton (15 Sep 2010)

Excellent result which I'm confident was entirely down to the video.


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## Crankarm (15 Sep 2010)

I think your camera footage would have been pivotal in court and very much influenced the advice he recieved from his solicitor. Did he plead guilty or contest the charge? Had you not had any footage then I don't even think the police would have been interested as it would be your word against his. It certainly wouldn't have got anywhere near a court. The police/CPS may or may not have contacted the independent witness.

Result though. I have had far far worse though, idiots that going by your case, should be serving 5 years imprisonment.


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## dellzeqq (15 Sep 2010)

Number14 said:


> Had a phone call this morning from the police officer handling the case.
> 
> The matter went to court and the van driver pleaded guilty to driving without due consideration and received 5pts, a fine (she didn't know how much) and court costs.
> 
> No more ccomments/condemnations about me hitting the side of the van - the point is he shoulddn't have performed his maneouvre - case closed.


well done - both you and the police


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## BSRU (15 Sep 2010)

Good to see some Police forces understand the usefulness of cyclists camera footage.


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## Headgardener (15 Sep 2010)

In the two instances that I have had very close overtakes I refrained from hitting the vechicles on the grounds that as the vehicles weighed about 2 tons then the drivers may also weigh an equal amount and that discretion would be the better part of valour. So I just made do with a lot of swearing and the waving of various didgits  .


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## TwickenhamCyclist (16 Sep 2010)

I notice the "you deserve to be killed because you touched his car" idiots are piping up…

Good result btw

For all those that think that touching a car, or banging on the side/roof is criminal damage, doesn’t there actually have to be some “damage” to the van in the first place. If I knock on a driver’s car window to let them know they haven’t got their lights on that isn’t criminal damage – neither is knocking on the window to tell them they are a w*nker for driving while using their mobile etc…


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## Origamist (16 Sep 2010)

TwickenhamCyclist said:


> I notice the "you deserve to be killed because you touched his car" idiots are piping up…
> 
> Good result btw
> 
> For all those that think that touching a car, or banging on the side/roof is criminal damage, doesn’t there actually have to be some “damage” to the van in the first place. If I knock on a driver’s car window to let them know they haven’t got their lights on that isn’t criminal damage – neither is knocking on the window to tell them they are a w*nker for driving while using their mobile etc…



Indeed. An open hand will not damage the window/bodywork but it will get the driver's attention if they are pushing you into the kerb etc. It's my last resort if shouting and escape routes have been exhausted.


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