# Hill training advice please?



## oldgreyandslow (6 Mar 2013)

I previously posted a question about changing the gearing for hills, at the time I had a 12-25 / 34-50 combo and had bought a replacement rear cassette which was 12-27.

I had this prior to posting and some folks recommended changing to a 12-28 rear, however as I had the 12-27 already I decided to see how that worked and surely 1 tooth isn't going to make that much difference is it?

As I am "lucky" enough to have got a spot on the ride London 100 and I'm somewhat concerned about the climbs of Leith Hill and Box Hill I ned to up my game. I know the best way to get better at climbing hills is by climbing hills and I have some relatively short ones nearby. One I have tried a few times rises 135 feet in approx 0.6 miles, but is quite steep nearer the top, my problem is that it's a slog to get over it, sometimes its not so bad others its a right pain and I max out at 168 bpm on the HRM which clkearly isn't sustainable.

This hill clearly doesn't compare in length or steepness of the ones I am likely to encounter, however I was hoping that doing enough reps on it may improve things to an extent that I could stand a chance of not walking them.

Distance wise I'm not concerned, I regularly ride 60-70 miles on undulating roads and upping the distance I think is doable.

So the question really is how do I get better at climbing so these hills won't be a huge problem and as a side issue should I give a 12-28 a try? I know I'll need a couple of extra links in the chain.


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## Rob3rt (6 Mar 2013)

Going to dodge the big debate here and just say, combination of riding up hills and threshold work either in the hills or on the flat is likely to be a good idea. For short climbs, 5-8 minutes long, VO2 max sessions would benefit, but unless you are attacking your competitors (or responding to attacks from others) in a road race or trying for fast times up the hills, hill climb style, you needn't bother.

If you have a compact chainset, I can not fathom the need even for 27t on anything bar the steepest of hill, never mind a 28t.


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## Star Strider (6 Mar 2013)

Ride fixed.

I do and it's almost 600 feet above sea level in places round these parts.


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## Lee_M (6 Mar 2013)

Rob3rt said:


> If you have a compact chainset, I can not fathom the need even for 27t on anything bar the steepest of hill, never mind a 28t.


 
try being 51, and weighing 15 stone  (that's me btw not the OP)


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## Sittingduck (6 Mar 2013)

Boxhill is not steep. There is one right-hand hairpin about half way up that is moderately steep for about 10 yards, if you take the inside line  It is more of a long drag that's a fairly consistent gradient. You will likely be fine, on a compact with 12-27.

Leith hill isn't steep either but is a bit more undulating than Box and the road surface can be sketchy at best. It kind of depends on which road you ascend it because there are a couple of variations. If you descent Coldharbour Ln, it's a nice payback because that stretch of road is exhillarating.


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## oldgreyandslow (6 Mar 2013)

Lee_M said:


> try being 51, and weighing 15 stone  (that's me btw not the OP)


 Erm 53 and 12 stone ish so probably not much different, I'm trying to get down to 11 stone, or less though


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## Star Strider (6 Mar 2013)

Why would you want to be less than 11?

Unless you are 5'3"?


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## Lee_M (6 Mar 2013)

I dream of being 12 stone! Havent been that size since I was 21 (then again I am 6'3")

I also like my 28T

I think Rob3rt might be younger thinner or just generally fitter than us


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## Rob3rt (6 Mar 2013)

Lee_M said:


> I dream of being 12 stone! Havent been that size since I was 21 (then again I am 6'3")
> 
> I also like my 28T
> 
> I think Rob3rt might be younger thinner or just generally fitter than us


 
Age: 26
Height: 6' 3"
Weight: 12st 2lb

Never needed anything easier than 34:25 and my current easiest gearing is 39:27.


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## Lee_M (6 Mar 2013)

Rob3rt said:


> Age: 26
> Height: 6' 3"
> Weight: 12st 2lb


 
 no wonder you cant understand difficulty in getting up hills you young whippersnapper!!


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## Star Strider (6 Mar 2013)

I'm just under 12 and 5'10", waist about a 30"

It's not about being as thin as possible it's about having a good power to weight ratio, if you try and lose too much weight you may find hills get harder due to muscle atrophy.


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## oldgreyandslow (6 Mar 2013)

Star Strider said:


> Why would you want to be less than 11?
> 
> Unless you are 5'3"?


 I'm 5 foot 11 ish and 11 stone, this gives a BMI of 21.58 but I'm light boned, thin arms, wrists etc. 10 stone 7 which is probably a bit too light tbh gives me a BMI of 20.52 still in the healthy range. I know BMI isn't the be all and end all of fitness but pulling less weight uphill has to be easier


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## Rob3rt (6 Mar 2013)

oldgreyandslow said:


> I'm 5 foot 11 ish and 11 stone, this gives a BMI of 21.58 but I'm light boned, thin arms, wrists etc. 10 stone 7 which is probably a bit too light tbh gives me a BMI of 20.52 still in the healthy range. I know BMI isn't the be all and end all of fitness but pulling less weight uphill has to be easier


 
At your current weight, I would advise you to concentrate on power output, if there is weight to loose, it will come off naturally. This is just my opinion.

At my current state, this is exactly what I am doing, I tried to reduce my weight consciously to 12st 7lbs to shed a bit of fat, once this was achieved I aimed sorely at increasing power output over a relevant duration to my TT aspirations, I have dropped a further 5 lbs without conscious effort and my power output has increased measurably.


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## Lee_M (6 Mar 2013)

Star Strider said:


> I'm just under 12 and 5'10", waist about a 30"
> 
> It's not about being as thin as possible it's about having a good power to weight ratio, if you try and lose too much weight you may find hills get harder due to muscle atrophy.


 
agreed.

In my case I'm just a big bloke anyway, I'm not fat but 15 stone is still a heck of a lot to hoik up hills


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## Star Strider (6 Mar 2013)

oldgreyandslow said:


> I'm 5 foot 11 ish and 11 stone, this gives a BMI of 21.58 but I'm light boned, thin arms, wrists etc. 10 stone 7 which is probably a bit too light tbh gives me a BMI of 20.52 still in the healthy range. I know BMI isn't the be all and end all of fitness but pulling less weight uphill has to be easier


BMI is a load of shite in our context and they are planning to revise it for people who excercise.

You are struggling as you are getting too thin and have lost muscle tone, I would also caution that getting too thin up top puts you at greater injury risk as there's nothing to hold you together in a smash. Broken collar bones and seperated shoulder blades ahoy.

Pulling less weight is not easier if there is nothing there to pull it.


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## 400bhp (6 Mar 2013)

Rob3rt said:


> Age: 26
> Height: 6' 3"
> Weight: 12st 2lb
> 
> Never needed anything easier than 34:25 and my current easiest gearing is 39:27.


 
Fatty


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## 400bhp (6 Mar 2013)

And where's B&Y


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## jowwy (6 Mar 2013)

Rob3rt said:


> Age: 26
> Height: 6' 3"
> Weight: 12st 2lb
> 
> Never needed anything easier than 34:25 and my current easiest gearing is 39:27.


lucky you

im 5ft 10 and 17st and my easiest gear is 30/26 but its still a killer trying to get up some of the hills in the welsh valleys were i live

too many people on here make assumptions that we are all racing snakes and find climbing easy - ITS NOT


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## Hacienda71 (6 Mar 2013)

It is not easy when you are lighter. You just go faster.


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## oldgreyandslow (6 Mar 2013)

Rob3rt said:


> At your current weight, I would advise you to concentrate on power output, if there is weight to loose, it will come off naturally. This is just my opinion.
> 
> At my current state, this is exactly what I am doing, I tried to reduce my weight consciously to 12st 7lbs to shed a bit of fat, once this was achieved I aimed sorely at increasing power output over a relevant duration to my TT aspirations, I have dropped a further 5 lbs without conscious effort and my power output has increased measurably.


 


Star Strider said:


> BMI is a load of s***e in our context and they are planning to revise it for people who excercise.
> 
> You are struggling as you are getting too thin and have lost muscle tone, I would also caution that getting too thin up top puts you at greater injury risk as there's nothing to hold you together in a smash. Broken collar bones and seperated shoulder blades ahoy.
> 
> Pulling less weight is not easier if there is nothing there to pull it.


 

Both very valid points thanks.

So how to increase power output?

And yes to broekn shoulder blades, although mine was caused by a car driver hitting me and I don't think any amount of muscle would have helped that day! My knees/legs have suffered since though


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## fossyant (6 Mar 2013)

Rob3rt said:


> Age: 26
> Height: 6' 3"
> Weight: 12st 2lb
> 
> Never needed anything easier than 34:25 and my current easiest gearing is 39:27.


 
Fatty and a girl, and young 

5' 9", 80kg (at best) - bit over 12 stone and 39 x 24 is my lowest Grrr, and I'm an old git - 43.


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## Star Strider (6 Mar 2013)

oldgreyandslow said:


> Both very valid points thanks.
> 
> So how to increase power output?
> 
> And yes to broekn shoulder blades, although mine was caused by a car driver hitting me and I don't think any amount of muscle would have helped that day! My knees/legs have suffered since though


Ride fixed.

Or do squats.

Or do both.


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## Licramite (6 Mar 2013)

Have you tried putting aerobars on the bike, it pulls right over the handlebar and I find gives you a much more powerfull position.


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## Hacienda71 (6 Mar 2013)

Licramite said:


> Have you tried putting aerobars on the bike, it pulls right over the handlebar and I find gives you a much more powerfull position.


 
On a hill?


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## 400bhp (6 Mar 2013)




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## Licramite (6 Mar 2013)

yea, put your weight on your elbows, get your bum off your seat, gives you real power on the peddles without your body weight on your legs.


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## Rob3rt (6 Mar 2013)

Star Strider said:


> BMI is a load of s***e in our context and they are planning to revise it for people who excercise.
> 
> *You are struggling as you are getting too thin and have lost muscle tone*, I would also caution that getting too thin up top puts you at greater injury risk as there's nothing to hold you together in a smash. Broken collar bones and seperated shoulder blades ahoy.
> 
> Pulling less weight is not easier if there is nothing there to pull it.


 
Talk about leaping to conclusions.


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## Hacienda71 (6 Mar 2013)

Licramite said:


> yea, put your weight on your elbows, get your bum off your seat, gives you real power on the peddles without your body weight on your legs.


 
Well that is a new one on me. 

What I would say is that this chap should know what he is talking about, he gives a lot of good advice. Seeing his times up a lot of the main climbs in the UK he is very quick.


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## fossyant (6 Mar 2013)

Licramite said:


> yea, put your weight on your elbows, get your bum off your seat, gives you real power on the peddles without your body weight on your legs.


 
It doesn't, also very unstable. Weight on bars off saddle. Nooo


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (6 Mar 2013)

Hacienda71 said:


> Well that is a new one on me.
> 
> What I would say is that this chap should know what he is talking about, he gives a lot of good advice. Seeing his times up a lot of the main climbs in the UK he is very quick.


 Licramite being a guy who puts the fan behind him on the turbo to simulate tail wind.

Massive pinch of salt required.


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## lejogger (6 Mar 2013)

It's very subjective... depending a lot on all factors to do with age, weight, fitness, power and your bike too. On my carbon bike I have a compact 34/25 and at 32yo, 12 stone and 6ft I can't ever ever imagine needing anything lower - on that bike. 

On my winter CX bike I have compact apex gearing with a lowest gear of 34/32. The bike is practically twice as heavy as the carbon, especially with a full rack bag, and when I've been touring I've needed the full range. I've even used the lowest gear on a club run this year on a particularly long and steep climb when I wasn't 100%. There's no shame in it. 

Put it in terms of a golf handicap - some have a high one and some have a low one, the overall goal being that all abilities can take part. 

The point is that you set your bike up in a way that you need to get yourself round the course so that you can take part and enjoy yourself. The more you ride and fitter you get the less you'll need the lower gears but that will come with time and practice. Feeling pressured to ride bikes geared too high and then finding yourself walking up the hills will only knock confidence and enthusiasm.


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## fossyant (6 Mar 2013)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Licramite being a guy who puts the fan behind him on the turbo to simulate tail wind..


 
I thought you were to put it in front, to simulate some cooling, otherwise I melt ?


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## montage (6 Mar 2013)

Hacienda71 said:


> Well that is a new one on me.
> 
> What I would say is that this chap should know what he is talking about, he gives a lot of good advice. Seeing his times up a lot of the main climbs in the UK he is very quick.


 
I think the main thing to take from looking at his photos is that he is transparent.


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## Rob3rt (6 Mar 2013)

Licramite said:


> Have you tried putting aerobars on the bike, it pulls right over the handlebar and I find gives you a much more powerfull position.


 


Licramite said:


> yea, put your weight on your elbows, get your bum off your seat, gives you real power on the peddles without your body weight on your legs.


 
It is pointless explaining to you why the above is a load of old horse muck, but please be assured, it is!


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## Rob3rt (6 Mar 2013)

fossyant said:


> Fatty and a girl, and young
> 
> 5' 9", 80kg (at best) - bit over 12 stone and 39 x 24 is my lowest Grrr, and I'm an old git - 43.


 
Oh and yes, I ride fairly easy gearing, (I have been told by the racing sec to "push bigger bastard gears" on a few occasions) hence I do wonder why many people need weird dinner place sized cassettes. I once mentioned getting a 27t in passing when I was riding a compact, club captain shot that one down instantly, lol - Of course he was right, I was just being a pussy.


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## Rob3rt (6 Mar 2013)

Hacienda71 said:


> Well that is a new one on me.
> 
> What I would say is that this chap should know what he is talking about, he gives a lot of good advice. Seeing his times up a lot of the main climbs in the UK he is very quick.


 
Tejvan Pettinger was National Hill Climb Champ in the past I think (maybe I am wrong though, definitely finished top 5 a few times). He has some very fast times. At the Holme Moss HC last October, some of the GKV guys were saying how he rolled around the peaks smashing the KOM's one after the other on the same day including racing their HC as part of the ride.


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## Licramite (6 Mar 2013)

Rob3rt said:


> It is pointless explaining to you why the above is a load of old horse muck, but please be assured, it is!


 
have you tried it ? or are you just going on the general I know more than he does.

It can be unstable I've come a cropper a couple of times were I just could not go forward anymore - but then I would have probably fallen over anyhow.

all I can say is it works for me.

I new a guy never did a parachute roll on landing, he was to tall I think, he was all arms and legs - who was to say if he was right or wrong , all I can say is it worked for him.


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## Licramite (6 Mar 2013)

fossyant said:


> I thought you were to put it in front, to simulate some cooling, otherwise I melt ?


 I know but it's the ONLY time I ever get a tailwind .


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## Rob3rt (6 Mar 2013)

Licramite said:


> have you tried it ? or are you just going on the general I know more than he does.


 
Only a doofus does something they know is stupid, in order to confirm what they already know to be stupid. So, no I have not tried it. In this case, I feel comfortable with assuming that I know more than you know on the subject.


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## Licramite (6 Mar 2013)

yea , I bet your an expert on loads of things , even if you have never done them.


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## Andrew_P (6 Mar 2013)

Ride the bike more and ride up hills more, and then do it some more!

Apart from that you need to have a plan in your head and don't blow it all in the first part of climb try and keep just above comfortable and have a bit of reserve, vary in and out of saddle on the hill.

Most hills seem a lot harder the first time you go up, they all have a personality and you get to know where it is going ot hurt and where there might be a bit of a breather.


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## Rob3rt (6 Mar 2013)

Licramite said:


> yea , I bet your an expert on loads of things , even if you have never done them.


 
I didn't claim to be an expert, but all it takes is knowing more than nothing to know more than you on this subject it seems!

Go watch a few races and count how many people ascend a steep climb on aero bars (or indeed get out of the saddle while on aero bars)!

Now back to helping the OP...... to increase your power output, it is likely a case of riding more and/or riding harder. I do not know enough about you to suggest specifics. Wouldn't hurt to get in a 2-3 hours tempo session once a week.


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## Licramite (7 Mar 2013)

Hi - if your interested in aerobars for hill climbing I would suggest you google it and you will get a more broadminded range of views than on this site. - and by people who have actually tried it. - some will say yes some say no - give em a read and see what you think.
I have them on my Mtb specifically for the hill climbs and have done 6 rides on them - not a huge test I know but it's early days. I think they have helped , but its a fine line between the top of the hill and burn out , and not just on the legs, your taking a lot on your arms , I've failed (and then fell off - stability is a problem) once because my arms gave out.
On the flat its about aeroposition , but on a hill its about best position to give the max force (i'm not a low gear and spin person).
I've tried them once going downhill offroad - too scary for me -

I admit I;m the sort that looks for a tech solution , some when they come to a river say God give me big arms and legs so I may swim across , me I say - God give me a bridge.

right thats enough about aerobars.


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## Rob3rt (7 Mar 2013)

Licramite said:


> Hi - if your interested in aerobars for hill climbing I would suggest you google it and you will get a more broadminded range of views than on this site. - and by people who have actually tried it. - some will say yes some say no - give em a read and see what you think.
> I have them on my Mtb specifically for the hill climbs and have done 6 rides on them - not a huge test I know but it's early days. I think they have helped , but its a fine line between the top of the hill and burn out , and not just on the legs, your taking a lot on your arms , I've failed (and then fell off - stability is a problem) once because my arms gave out.
> On the flat its about aeroposition , but on a hill its about best position to give the max force (i'm not a low gear and spin person).
> I've tried them once going downhill offroad - too scary for me -
> ...


 
Are you actually trying to justify bullshit with bullshit?

Go and watch a few time trials, either on TV or in person, notice what the competitors do whenever they hit a steep hill or require fine control of the bike................. oh go on then........... I'll save you the bother and just tell you, they get OFF the aero bars and onto the base bars for added leverage and bike control (and to be able to access the brakes)! If you get caught going over a traffic island or junction in a CTT event on the aero bars you will likely get DQ'd and possible further ramifications regarding future competition.


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## Ningishzidda (7 Mar 2013)

Join a gym. Get on the upright bike and crank it up to max.
This way, you are only a crawl away from the changing rooms, and the gym staff can operate a defibrilator.


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## PMarkey (7 Mar 2013)

Ningishzidda said:


> Join a gym. Get on the upright bike and crank it up to max.
> This way, you are only a crawl away from the changing rooms, and the gym staff can operate a defibrilator.


I may just have to use this as my new training regime 

Paul


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## Licramite (7 Mar 2013)

Ningishzidda said:


> Join a gym. Get on the upright bike and crank it up to max.
> This way, you are only a crawl away from the changing rooms, and the gym staff can operate a defibrilator.


 Yep - did that on my turbo - but spend 10minutes warming up before you go to max setting , I went straight into it and stopped after 15minutes with spots in front of the eyes and a desire to fall over.


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## Andrew_P (19 May 2013)

Blimey got caught out today hit a hill that really knocked it out of me. Pebble Hill near Boxhill. Not sure it was the actual hill but the way I came at it meant I had been climbing a few miles before I hit it, and having never ridden it before I had no clue what the last bit was like!! I was praying as I crawled up it that it ended after the bend..


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## ianrauk (19 May 2013)

Pebblecomb Hill is indeed a bugger of a climb. Last time I did it I also attacked it too fast. Nearly got off and walked but just about made it. Last year when travelling to watch the Olympic Road race, we climbed it twice.


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## Sittingduck (19 May 2013)

I don't think I have even gone up Pebblecombe, only down (which can be dicey, at the best of times). Rather you, than me!


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