# Stationery cycle queries - Calories / Watt



## jtlondon (2 Apr 2014)

Hi everybody

Bit of history - I'm 27 and have suffered from multiple knee operations (5 to date), and am looking to get back into exercise through cycling as I can no longer play sport.

I've been looking on websites with regards to what a good power / calories burned should be when I am struggling to believe I am better than most in terms of ability (which I don't think can be right), and am looking for some facts with regards to stationery cycling. What is a good average watt power to have as a guy who is 84kg? I burned 710 calories in half an hour yesterday which is far above the "very vigorous" levels on the website I looked at (http://www.nutristrategy.com/fitness/cycling.htm). I find this very hard to believe given I've not really ever cycled and my legs have lost a lot of muscle having not done exercise for a long time due to recurring knee injuries. 

I guess what I'm looking for is some confirmation that the information on that website is probably wrong!

I can't remember exactly, but for the half an hour cycle I burnt 710 calories at an average watt of around 350-400 (can't quite remember). If I am above average I may plan to try and cycle semi-competitively with some training.

Cheers


----------



## vickster (2 Apr 2014)

Open the road, 30-40 calories a mile is a benchmark, assume the same on a rolling programme on a static, at about 80rpm?

Not that it really matters I guess. Are you using a turbo or static gym bike. Neither will really give you much feel for riding outside, need to ride outside for that 

But look after that knee, don't overdo the resistance, make sure the seat is correctly positioned and pedal smoothly. Would discuss a proper rehab and strength programme with a private sports physio who understands cycling as a sport if not already done so


----------



## jtlondon (2 Apr 2014)

vickster said:


> Open the road, 30-40 calories a mile is a benchmark, assume the same on a rolling programme on a static, at about 80rpm?
> 
> Not that it really matters I guess. Are you using a turbo or static gym bike. Neither will really give you much feel for riding outside, need to ride outside for that
> 
> But look after that knee, don't overdo the resistance, make sure the seat is correctly positioned and pedal smoothly. Would discuss a proper rehab and strength programme with a private sports physio who understands cycling as a sport if not already done so



Thanks for the response.

I work away a lot so stationery bikes are my only way to go most of the time.

I've been doing a minimum of around 105 rpm - 110 rpm generally. Think I covered 25km in 30 minutes from memory, which would work out 45 cals per mile so seems about right? Not sure how resistance levels on bikes compares to gears on road bikes, but I was using resistance of around 14 on a static Nike bike (again, no clue if this stuff is helpful or pointless but may as well mention it). 

I plan to talk to a physio about it but just wanted to test the waters with forum users to see if I'm along the (rough) right tracks. I had given up on being able to do anything sporty relatively well since the ops, so a small spark of hope! I realise that riding in the gym is far different to the outside but all I can do at present!


----------



## vickster (2 Apr 2014)

What's up with your knee? When was the last op? 

Rpm sounds pretty quick, on the road I think 90-100 is high, so level 14 many not be that high on the kit you use


----------



## jtlondon (3 Apr 2014)

vickster said:


> What's up with your knee? When was the last op?
> 
> Rpm sounds pretty quick, on the road I think 90-100 is high, so level 14 many not be that high on the kit you use



I ruptured my cruciate ligament (hamstring graft), and have had 4 or 5 separate cartilage tears, meaning that after my last operation I was non-weight bearing for 2 months (Jan-Mar 2013). I have taken the road to recovery very lightly, and am attempting to ramp up my exercise from now, primarily through cycling.

My exercise yesterday was..

30 mins
23.84 km
Calories 714
Average watt 369
Average METs (don't know what this is) 19.45
Average heart rate 158 (Not sure how it determines this as the majority of the time I didn't have my hands on the reader).
My RPM ranged from 100-115, with a few sprints

Should I be going for a higher resistance or not?


----------



## Joshua Plumtree (3 Apr 2014)

Not sure how your trainer is set up, but some of those numbers seem a little on the high side. Bradley Wiggins's output during the 2012 Olympic Time Trial was between 450-60 watts, so 369 for a novice is some going! As is nearly 24 km for 30 mins. If You could translate those figures to the road, then you'd be winning nearly every 10 TT you entered.


----------



## jtlondon (3 Apr 2014)

Joshua Plumtree said:


> Not sure how your trainer is set up, but some of those numbers seem a little on the high side. Bradley Wiggins's output during the 2012 Olympic Time Trial was between 450-60 watts, so 369 for a novice is some going! As is nearly 24 km for 30 mins. If You could translate those figures to the road, then you'd be winning nearly every 10 TT you entered.



Ha - this is what I was thinking! I could have worked harder as well but I was doing a weights session afterwards and didn't want to knacker myself out completely for that.

I used to play hockey quite competitively so my legs are naturally strong from running around basically in a squat position for 80 minutes 2 times a week plus training, so I guess "novice" is perhaps misguided, although with all the operations I've had my leg muscles are depleted, particularly around my right hamstring where the operation was.

I guess the only way to see will be attempting it on the road. I have never really done it however so assume that I will be significantly slower.


----------



## Rob3rt (3 Apr 2014)

What did you use to measure the power figures, they are suspicious!

If it comes from some bog standard gym style stationary bike, I would ignore it completely!


----------



## vickster (3 Apr 2014)

If you are missing most of your meniscus, assuming that was the torn cartilage, you will want to be careful so as not to over hasten the almost inevitable onset of arthritis. Have you discussed meniscus transplant with your surgeon? I'd see a physio to check muscle balance before going all out


----------



## jtlondon (3 Apr 2014)

User13710 said:


> Is this stationery cycle the paper bike that @Pat "5mph" keeps mentioning?


I did realise this after the event  Was waiting to see if anybody would comment!


----------



## jtlondon (3 Apr 2014)

vickster said:


> If you are missing most of your meniscus, assuming that was the torn cartilage, you will want to be careful so as not to over hasten the almost inevitable onset of arthritis. Have you discussed meniscus transplant with your surgeon? I'd see a physio to check muscle balance before going all out



I have no cartilage left in my right knee (lateral and medial meniscus), had microfractures surgery in order to create some scar tissue to act as cartilage. I wasn't aware of any such thing as a meniscus transplant, thought that was only being trialled in America currently?

I'll have to have a chat to see if that's a potential avenue.

Will be having physio within the next few weeks.

@Rob3rt -Yeah it comes from a gym bike. How should I measure it? Surely they are designed specifically to give correct power outputs?


----------



## Rob3rt (3 Apr 2014)

jtlondon said:


> I have no cartilage left in my right knee (lateral and medial meniscus), had microfractures surgery in order to create some scar tissue to act as cartilage. I wasn't aware of any such thing as a meniscus transplant, thought that was only being trialled in America currently?
> 
> I'll have to have a chat to see if that's a potential avenue.
> 
> ...



You shouldn't measure it unless you have access to a stationary bike specifically designed to provide accurate power measurements eg. Wattbike etc.

Contrary to your thoughts, no they are not designed to give correct power outputs, it is an extra metric shoe-horned in, any power measurement is usually inferred rather than measured and the inference is more often than not, not a good one!


----------



## jtlondon (3 Apr 2014)

Rob3rt said:


> You shouldn't measure it unless you have access to a stationary bike specifically designed to provide accurate power measurements eg. Wattbike etc.
> 
> Contrary to your thoughts, no they are not designed to give correct power outputs, it is an extra metric shoe-horned in, any power measurement is usually inferred rather than measured and the inference is more often than not, not a good one!



O - that's annoying. If it makes any difference, it's a nice gym and the bikes are new, but certainly aren't a wattbike. 

How do I go about measuring it on a normal bike? 

Can my average power not be calculated from the distance I have travelled and in a specific timeframe, or are the odometers incorrect also?!


----------



## Rob3rt (3 Apr 2014)

Forget power measurement.


----------



## jtlondon (3 Apr 2014)

Rob3rt said:


> Forget power measurement.



But I want to know my FTP! Plus it gives me something to stare at whilst I'm bored cycling in the gym


----------



## Rob3rt (3 Apr 2014)

Why do you want to know your FTP? How will it benefit you? Do you know what to do with it once you have it? etc.

If you really want power measurements, take the best part of a grand, buy a proper power meter and then spend another couple of hundred quid for a head unit that can communicate with it, and put it all on your bike!


----------



## jtlondon (3 Apr 2014)

Rob3rt said:


> Why do you want to know your FTP? How will it benefit you? Do you know what to do with it once you have it? etc.
> 
> If you really want power measurements, take the best part of a grand, buy a proper power meter and then spend another couple of hundred quid for a head unit that can communicate with it, and put it all on your bike!



I want to know because I am naturally competitive and need motivation to sit on a gym bike after a long day at work  Being able to measure things will be part of the way to track progress


----------



## Rob3rt (3 Apr 2014)

Put it this way, there is pretty much no way you averaged 350+ watts for 30 mins as an untrained cyclist. I wouldn't be surprised if you could barely hold that for 5 minutes. I also wouldn't be surprised if the next time you got on the same bike and did exactly the same thing and got a completely different number. I'd be even less surprised if you got on a different bike in your gym and got a completely different number for doing the same thing.



Joshua Plumtree said:


> Not sure how your trainer is set up, but some of those numbers seem a little on the high side. Bradley Wiggins's output during the 2012 Olympic Time Trial was between 450-60 watts, so 369 for a novice is some going! As is nearly 24 km for 30 mins. *If You could translate those figures to the road, then you'd be winning nearly every 10 TT you entered. *



No he wouldn't.  If that was the case, then by inference, I'd be a prolific winner, at present, I am a prolific also ran, hah!


----------



## vickster (3 Apr 2014)

Where do you live in the uk? There are a few surgeons doing meniscus transplants, some nhs, some privately. If your cartilage is already trashed, I am not sure whether that's an option or whether new bits down the road only

Have a look for knee geeks forum, useful info and discussion


----------



## jtlondon (3 Apr 2014)

Rob3rt said:


> Put it this way, there is pretty much no way you averaged 350+ watts for 30 mins as an untrained cyclist. I wouldn't be surprised if you could barely hold that for 5 minutes. I also wouldn't be surprised if the next time you got on the same bike and did exactly the same thing and got a completely different number. I'd be even less surprised if you got on a different bike in your gym and got a completely different number for doing the same thing.
> 
> 
> 
> No he wouldn't.  If that was the case, then by inference, I'd be a prolific winner, at present, I am a prolific also ran, hah!



I went on the same bike two days in a row and did the same and got that amount (I took a photo fo the second day after on being able to remember all the details from the first attempt). I'll try a different bike next time 

But yes - hence the post, I didn't think I'd be some sort of super cyclist from birth, but it's intrigued me to see what level I am at. 

What can be trusted on a gym bike then? I want to be able to know how much exercise I'm doing


----------



## jtlondon (3 Apr 2014)

vickster said:


> Where do you live in the uk? There are a few surgeons doing meniscus transplants, some nhs, some privately. If your cartilage is already trashed, I am not sure whether that's an option or whether new bits down the road only
> 
> Have a look for knee geeks forum, useful info and discussion


I'm in London. Thanks I'll give it a look, but I have to admit I'm not a huge fan of the thought of more operations! If it could sort out my cartilage problems in the long term it would be incredible, particularly if I could play sport again so I will give it a look. If it is the case I have no idea why I have never been recommended it by consultants.


----------



## vickster (3 Apr 2014)

Google for a surgeon in London called Ian McDermott. Is your consultant a knee specialist or general ortho

Meniscus transplant very very painful by all accounts and it'll give you day to day function but if bone on bone not much more. So no hardcore sport I think


----------



## jtlondon (3 Apr 2014)

vickster said:


> Google for a surgeon in London called Ian McDermott. Is your consultant a knee specialist or general ortho
> 
> Meniscus transplant very very painful by all accounts and it'll give you day to day function but if bone on bone not much more. So no hardcore sport I think



He was a knee specialist. If the surgery is very very painful and won't allow me to play sport I'll give it a miss!!!

I coped 2 years bone on bone before having an operation and (depressingly) got used to the pain. Had 8 weeks non-weight bearing after microfractures so don't particularly fancy anymore


----------



## vickster (3 Apr 2014)

Looking at his website, will likely be a no go if acl damaged and also articular cartilage. But is informative. Looks like private only so would cost 10k too


----------



## Pat "5mph" (3 Apr 2014)

User13710 said:


> Is this stationery cycle the paper bike that @Pat "5mph" keeps mentioning?


  
A spin on my Paper Bike would definitely murder the OP's knee!


----------



## Dogtrousers (3 Apr 2014)

jtlondon said:


> What can be trusted on a gym bike then? I want to be able to know how much exercise I'm doing


I like going to the gym, and I can push myself harder than on the road (no worrying about leaving something in the tank for later, no slowing for hazards & traffic) and it's convenient for me. I know it's not for everyone but I like it.

I'm also a fan of the numbers you get from the machines (bikes, rowers etc) *...BUT ...* 

The way I look at it, the numbers they give you are great - they are all interesting and you can compare them visit-to-visit, but they don't necessarily mean much in the real world. So - say - you get a "feel" for what a 1000 calorie workout is on a particular machine but that doesn't necessarily mean it really is 1000 calories, it may well be in that ballpark, but the best use is to compare it with other visits and challenge yourself.

My gym has Wattbikes and I've been using them. It feels a lot more like a bike than most stationary jobs. But I'm highly suspicious of the metrics it gives. It can give me an average speed over an hour of 39km/h. Yeah, right. I just _can not _go that fast in the real world unless it's down a big hill. So average? for an hour? Cobblers. It's flattering but I don't buy it. 

All the same, I'm planning to try to break "40" ... whatever that means.


----------



## Dogtrousers (4 Apr 2014)

jtlondon said:


> I have no cartilage left in my right knee (lateral and medial meniscus), had microfractures surgery in order to create some scar tissue to act as cartilage. I wasn't aware of any such thing as a meniscus transplant, thought that was only being trialled in America currently?
> 
> I'll have to have a chat to see if that's a potential avenue.
> 
> Will be having physio within the next few weeks.


I had microfracture treatment on my damaged cartilage in 2007. It didn't work so I had a procedure called MACI the following year. That's Matrix Assisted Autologous Cartilage Implant Hang on, that would be MAACI. Perhaps I've forgotten the acronym.

Anyway, what they did was take some cartilage from my knee, take it away and grow it up in a lab and then re-implant the cells so they grew a new layer of cartilage. Knee was completely immobilised with no load bearing for a couple of months, and I ended up with one normal leg and one comedy skinny leg. I also tore the rotator cuff in my shoulder from over-using my arm to lift myself up (on the tube etc), and I put on blubber due to being immobilised. I was a wreck.

I was lucky as (a) I had insurance so it was private and (b) the implant was experimental and I was part of a trial. It worked ... to a degree. My left knee works OK but it's different to the right. Surgeon was Fares Haddad, who is a hell of a nice guy too.

My advice on recovery from stuff like this is _*accept that it's long term, don't overdo it, but keep at it.*_ Little by little. Obey your physio. He/she will give you some exercises that may seem pointless and stupid. Do them!

I've been warned that long-long term I'll probably get arthritis in there sooner rather than later.

Edit. The acronym is Matrix-induced Autologous Chondrocyte Implantation (MACI). See http://www.sportsinjurybulletin.com//archive/articular-cartilage.htm


----------



## vickster (4 Apr 2014)

I started on the MACI road back in 2010 after a long battle with my then insurance company - had to be referred to a different surgeon to be part of the 'trial', which now ended recruitment, private insurers are now even more reluctant to fund (Bupa won't). I had the first op, but harvest not done as being knock kneed I had kissing defects on the tibia opposite the hole in the femur so these lowered likelihood of success to a level where the surgeon wouldn't put me through the op and rehab. I don't think the OP would be eligible (they still do at Royal National Orthopaedic on NHS) as he has little meniscus and the graft would be unprotected from the other bones?

I now essentially have wear in all compartments along with another lateral meniscus tear so I'll probably end up needing new bits in 10-20 years. One thing that foes help me are hyaluronic acid injections to keep the joint lubricated, can get privately or NHS if specialist thinks will help. I have had three lots now, less convinced the last one helped but that could be the meniscus tear rather than the arthritis not responding

Knee is the least of my worries with my left leg right now anyhow!


----------



## Dogtrousers (4 Apr 2014)

Knees, who'd have them, eh?


----------



## vickster (4 Apr 2014)

All from what appeared a pretty innocuous fall off a bike!


----------



## 4F (4 Apr 2014)

jtlondon said:


> What can be trusted on a gym bike then? I want to be able to know how much exercise I'm doing



The only measurement that can be trusted on any gym bike is time, you can really treat the rest of the readings with a pinch of salt.

It was rupturing my cruciate and medial ligaments playing football that got me into cycling, good luck with the recovery.


----------



## jtlondon (14 Apr 2014)

4F said:


> The only measurement that can be trusted on any gym bike is time, you can really treat the rest of the readings with a pinch of salt.
> 
> It was rupturing my cruciate and medial ligaments playing football that got me into cycling, good luck with the recovery.



Well - that is exactly the same situation as me 4F.

With regards to trusting the gym bike measurements - fair enough! I got a taste of that at the other gym I've been to, in half an hour I got readings of around;

Time : 30 mins
Average power 250W
Distance 15.2km
Average HR 163
Calories 454

Which is obviously vastly different to the other place!


----------



## vickster (14 Apr 2014)

Quod erat demonstrandum


----------



## Dogtrousers (14 Apr 2014)

you can probably rely on the heart rate figures too ... Until some chilled out dude fresh from a yoga class comes and stands by your bike while you are sprinting and your heart rate suddenly mellows out


----------

