# Bicycle Flashing Lights Are Illegal? Really?



## TrafficDroid (22 May 2013)

Those who know.. maybe they can throw more light on this subject?


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## Nebulous (22 May 2013)

It used to be the case that flashing lights were illegal, but the law changed. It has been covered on here often, should be easy to find.

Guys trying to have a go whilst putting on a pretence of being civil, though I only watched the first couple of minutes.


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## markharry66 (22 May 2013)

not really just seemed straight forward conversation with know it all seemed nice enough and harmless.


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## ufkacbln (22 May 2013)

I had a local driving instructor inform me that I wasn't entitled to use the road when there was a cycle path!

Sending the video to his company expressing real concern over his ignorance resulted in his being advised of his error by his company and assurances that the trainee would also be advised that this was an error.

A couple of weeks later he pulled up alongside at the same point, glowered and wound his window up!


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## TrafficDroid (22 May 2013)

Cunobelin said:


> I had a local driving instructor inform me that I wasn't entitled to use the road when there was a cycle path!
> 
> Sending the video to his company expressing real concern over his ignorance resulted in his being advised of his error by his company and assurances that the trainee would also be advised that this was an error.
> 
> A couple of weeks later he pulled up alongside at the same point, glowered and wound his window up!


 HA HA HA HA!!!! Well done. You are a Super Droid


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## fossyant (22 May 2013)

User said:


> Flashing lights _can_ be illegal.
> 
> Lights have to meet certain requirements, outlined in the Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 (as amended), including output and frequency of flash. If they don;t meet the requirements they are not legal for use on the road in the UK. Not all lights sold in the UK meet those requirements.


 
Very few meet the standards. Happy to say none of mine do, and I would suspect most of us here don't have BS marked lights.


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## fossyant (22 May 2013)

That's 8:48 I won't be watching - really a none event. Are you using this forum to promote your you tube channel and increase hits ?

I find it odd that you don't contribute to the forum as a whole, just to self promote within Commuting, and within your own posts.

How about sharing your knowledge in Know How, Health and Fitness, Beginners, or even join us for Tea in the Cafe ?


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## veloevol (22 May 2013)

His motherboard is hardwired. This is not someone who is going to take your advice though I'm hoping since he has come to CC he'll take off his Teflon and listen to some of the guidance given.


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## GrasB (22 May 2013)

fossyant said:


> Very few meet the standards. Happy to say none of mine do, and I would suspect most of us here don't have BS marked lights.


No. I'd not want anything to such a low standard!.. All my bikes have at least one set of lights which are K marked. The others are just aux lights for show.


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## fossyant (22 May 2013)

My usual response is "Well you saw me". Only ever had one negative comment about my rear lights being too bright (grumpy milkman). Most cyclists say 'wow', and I've had two car drivers comment how good they are. BS lights are rubbish !


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## glasgowcyclist (22 May 2013)

fossyant said:


> Very few meet the standards. Happy to say none of mine do, and I would suspect most of us here don't have BS marked lights.


 
It doesn't need to be BS marked, it can be of an equivalent EC standard.
For the OP, the CTC has a comprehensive explanation of cycle lighting regulations.

GC


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## HLaB (22 May 2013)

The video is blocked at work but it sounds like that old chestnut, Folk havent read the latest lighting regs iirc correctly it was in 2005 they were made legal and my old Smart lights were only legal in that mode.


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## Mugshot (22 May 2013)

I have a concern about flashing front lights which somebody may be able to allay.
If you see a flashing white light you immediately know it's a cyclist, the problem I think I have with that is that there can be an assumption that cyclists don't go very fast therefore there's plenty of time to pull out from the junction and we know how that scenario can end. If you have very bright front lights on steady then there is the possibilty that the driver will, for a second, not know what is coming towards him and will wait to make his move.
Of course this is dependant on people looking properly in the first place.


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## glasgowcyclist (22 May 2013)

Mugshot said:


> I have a concern about flashing front lights which somebody may be able to allay.
> If you see a flashing white light you immediately know it's a cyclist, the problem I think I have with that is that there can be an assumption that cyclists don't go very fast therefore there's plenty of time to pull out from the junction and we know how that scenario can end.


 
You've summed up exactly why I stopped using flashing front lights.

GC


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## Mugshot (22 May 2013)

glasgowcyclist said:


> You've summed up exactly why I stopped using flashing front lights.


Thank goodness for that, I thought it was just me being stupid/paranoid


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## StuartG (22 May 2013)

Compounded by the added problem that its harder to judge the speed of a flashing light to defray any assumptions. OK if you are a plodder but not for the stravanisti ...


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## snorri (22 May 2013)

TrafficDroid said:


> . maybe they can throw more light on this subject?


 You mean throw light on the subject of why anyone would have so little to do that he would interupt his journey to speak to the bored driver of a parked car who may have mumbled something from behind the closed window of his car?


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## AndyRM (22 May 2013)

Mugshot said:


> I have a concern about flashing front lights which somebody may be able to allay.
> If you see a flashing white light you immediately know it's a cyclist, the problem I think I have with that is that there can be an assumption that cyclists don't go very fast therefore there's plenty of time to pull out from the junction and we know how that scenario can end. If you have very bright front lights on steady then there is the possibilty that the driver will, for a second, not know what is coming towards him and will wait to make his move.
> Of course this is dependant on people looking properly in the first place.


 
I hadn't thought of that! Lights on steady rather than flashing from now on!

Surprised the guy in the car continued the conversation. Poor chap had his dinner ruined!


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## GrumpyGregry (22 May 2013)

Mugshot said:


> I have a concern about flashing front lights which somebody may be able to allay.
> If you see a flashing white light you immediately know it's a cyclist, the problem I think I have with that is that there can be an assumption that cyclists don't go very fast therefore there's plenty of time to pull out from the junction and we know how that scenario can end. If you have very bright front lights on steady then there is the possibilty that the *driver will, for a second, not know what is coming towards him and will wait to make his move.*
> Of course this is dependant on people looking properly in the first place.


 
Do you really honestly think that is likely? Is it not more likely they will think, if they think at all, "I do not recognise the pin prick of light coming towards me as being attached to a tonne or more of metal, therefore it is not a threat, therefore I can pull out safel_crash_." or, more likely they are thinking "Must pay attention...... concentrate..... careful now..... SQUIRRELS!" and pull out? Which seems to be the experience of many motorcyclists and other car drivers, given how many collisions occur at junctions

If you ride behind a gigantic cut out of an artic it might have legs, and so will you given the wind resistance, but otherwise a driver who is a cock is a driver who is a cock and will pull out anyway. And you only need to worry about the drivers who are cocks.


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## XRHYSX (22 May 2013)

TrafficDroid said:


> maybe they can throw more light on this subject?


 http://lmgtfy.com/?q=uk+cycle+light+regulations#


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## TrafficDroid (22 May 2013)

XRHYSX said:


> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=uk cycle light regulations#


 Those are my words.. and please no twirling either


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## TrafficDroid (22 May 2013)

fossyant said:


> That's 8:48 I won't be watching - really a none event. Are you using this forum to promote your you tube channel and increase hits ?
> 
> I find it odd that you don't contribute to the forum as a whole, just to self promote within Commuting, and within your own posts.
> 
> How about sharing your knowledge in Know How, Health and Fitness, Beginners, or even join us for Tea in the Cafe ?


 I havent started to motor yet..plenty to contribute. The pictures or footage are areas of concern as a cyclist. The issue of lights have come up time and time again and needs to be thrashed out. As for exploiting my videos, they are the proverbial canvas in which to spark debate. But if it bothers some on here, I will not pate such scenes.


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## TrafficDroid (22 May 2013)

veloevol said:


> His motherboard is hardwired. This is not someone who is going to take your advice though I'm hoping since he has come to CC he'll take off his Teflon and listen to some of the guidance given.


 Okay, heres what before the kitchen explodes with all the cooking going on here.. I think I will just watch all the threads and see what this forum is all about and maybe approach issues differently..I can already sense something else..wont make up my mind just yet.


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## gaz (22 May 2013)

User said:


> Flashing lights _can_ be illegal.
> 
> Lights have to meet certain requirements, outlined in the Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 (as amended), including output and frequency of flash. If they don;t meet the requirements they are not legal for use on the road in the UK. Not all lights sold in the UK meet those requirements.


My understanding is that only one of the lights on your bicycle has to meet the regulations and not all. So as long as your little light is legal, anything else goes.


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## glasgowcyclist (22 May 2013)

gaz said:


> My understanding is that only one of the lights on your bicycle has to meet the regulations and not all. So as long as your little light is legal, anything else goes.


 
That's right, and that's why I have one pair of conforming front and rear lights along with additional lighting for very poor weather or visibilty.


GC


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## jonny jeez (22 May 2013)

Mugshot said:


> Thank goodness for that, I thought it was just me being stupid/paranoid


God no...loads of us on here are stupid / paranoid.


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## Boris Bajic (22 May 2013)

I use one or two small front lights and one or two small rear ones. Both LEDs (Cateye Cube?).

The rear is usually flashing, with the second only used in foul weather. As a motorist, I find it easier to see a bicycle and judge its speed, direction and distance when its rear lamp is flashing. i do not know why this is.

My front lamp (or lamps) never flash. As a motorist I find it harder to gauge the position, spped and direction of a flashing front cycle lamp. Part of the reason I use lamps as a cyclist is to alert other road users to my presence for my own safety.

As a motorist I find flashing front lamps on bicycles unhelpful but wouldn't criticise their use. many disagree with me. However, I find the use of extremely bright front lamps on bicycles (flashing or otherwise) extremely unhelpful. Some riders direct the beam at eye height for the average driver. This can lead to other road users looking away from the light source, which may not be the best outcome.

That's just my view, backed up by no science, no links, no Youtube footage and barely any knowledge of any subject.

A thought occurs... In the video, was the OP riding around in daylight with his lights on? If so, is this something other cyclists do? I never have unless it is foggy or tipping with rain.

Does current thinking embrace daylight running lights on bicycles? I am a Luddite.


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## Nigel-YZ1 (22 May 2013)

After driving through a 30mph and have a driving instructor fly up behind me at 60mph and tailgate while using a handheld mobile I'll take anything they say with a pinch of salt.
"If you lead, you must first do so by example".


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## theclaud (22 May 2013)

Mugshot said:


> *I have a concern about flashing front lights* which somebody may be able to allay.
> If you see a flashing white light you immediately know it's a cyclist, the problem I think I have with that is that there can be an assumption that cyclists don't go very fast therefore there's plenty of time to pull out from the junction and we know how that scenario can end. If you have very bright front lights on steady then there is the possibilty that the driver will, for a second, not know what is coming towards him and will wait to make his move.
> Of course this is dependant on people looking properly in the first place.


 
I have a slightly simpler concern about them - they are hideously annoying, especially to pedestrians and other cyclists. It does my head in if I have one behind me on a FNRttC.


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## Kookas (22 May 2013)

theclaud said:


> I have a slightly simpler concern about them - they are hideously annoying, especially to pedestrians and other cyclists. It does my head in if I have one behind me on a FNRttC.



That's probably because they're too bright to be flashing like that, more than anything else. I'd say anything over 100 lumens is too bright to be suddenly jumping from on to off, especially at night.


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## Mugshot (22 May 2013)

GregCollins said:


> Do you really honestly think that is likely? Is it not more likely they will think, if they think at all, "I do not recognise the pin prick of light coming towards me as being attached to a tonne or more of metal, therefore it is not a threat, therefore I can pull out safel_crash_." or, more likely they are thinking "Must pay attention...... concentrate..... careful now..... SQUIRRELS!" and pull out? Which seems to be the experience of many motorcyclists and other car drivers, given how many collisions occur at junctions
> 
> If you ride behind a gigantic cut out of an artic it might have legs, and so will you given the wind resistance, but otherwise a driver who is a cock is a driver who is a cock and will pull out anyway. And you only need to worry about the drivers who are cocks.


I do think it's likely yes. I think that a flashing front light says cyclist and nothing else whereas a steady light says vehicle on the road but I'm not sure which one.
You're right of course, idiots are idiots and there's almost certainly no cyclists, motorcyclists, car drivers or any other kind of road user that you care to mention that will disagree with you. But I do think that if the person at the junction is paying any sort of attention then a steady light may just make them wait because they don't know what's coming rather than them thinking it's a bicycle I have time.
As I said, I'm not suggesting I'm right, but the thought occurred to me one winters evening as I was making my way through the country lanes, that oncoming traffic would not know immediately what I was if my lights weren't flashing, and it was an epiphany which quite honestly made me feel safer.


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## Leodis (22 May 2013)

I mainly use the flashing front light for day time riding, if the sun isn’t quite up or its dark I don’t think twice. I have had more cars make room for me on the road due to the flashing light than at any other time.
Not too bothered if it upsets Peds or cyclists, it won’t be them under the wheels.


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## fossyant (22 May 2013)

TrafficDroid said:


> I havent started to motor yet..plenty to contribute. The pictures or footage are areas of concern as a cyclist.


 
Well if you had used the search function there is plenty of debate on lights etc. Nothing new here and you are just posting from your extensive library of video, which TBH we could go and look at it if we so wish. It's just like the spammers who come on to self promote their web sites/products etc.

"The pictures or footage are areas of concern as a cyclist" - please don't ask me (or us) to suck eggs - got the gravel rashes, and operation scars to prove it.


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## Mugshot (22 May 2013)

Leodis said:


> I mainly use the flashing front light for day time riding, if the sun isn’t quite up or its dark I don’t think twice.


Good point, I use flashing if the sun is low and behind me and I'm on a single track.


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## 4F (22 May 2013)

Mugshot said:


> Good point, I use flashing if the sun is low and behind me and I'm on a single track.


 
I use flashing to annoy driving instructors


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## fossyant (22 May 2013)

Fossydroid installs a 3xT6 laser and a 1xT6 wide angle laser to burn out @potsy (droid)'s eyes on the TPT in winter. Stops the bugger going for a KOM ! 

@potsy droid responds with similar hardware.


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## RiflemanSmith (22 May 2013)

TrafficDroid said:


> I havent started to motor yet..plenty to contribute. The pictures or footage are areas of concern as a cyclist. The issue of lights have come up time and time again and needs to be thrashed out. As for exploiting my videos, they are the proverbial canvas in which to spark debate. But if it bothers some on here, I will not pate such scenes.


I wouldn't worry about it mate, your clips are non events but harmless. 
If people don't like your videos no one is forcing them to watch them. 
It's just typical of this forum for people to jump all over every thing and start making snid comments.


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## Jdratcliffe (22 May 2013)

jonny jeez said:


> God no...loads of us on here are stupid / paranoid.


better to be paranoid and alive


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## mr_cellophane (22 May 2013)

What a load of bollacks he spouts. "if he can't have flashing lights, then it must apply to all road users". So my bike must have; a fog light, brake light, indicators, dipping headlight, etc, etc


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## theclaud (22 May 2013)

2466504 said:


> Noted


 I'd get DZ to ban them, if he didn't often use one the damned things himself.


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## ufkacbln (22 May 2013)

Rather than quote all the previous comments - this is my understanding which confirms some and widens others

There are two sets of regulations, the Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations and the British Standard (BS6102/3)

There is also the Euroean angle where you can have a light that meets an appropriate EU regulation. Some dynamo lights have a "K" prefixed number which meets the German standard

It is however possible to have a light marked with one of these that only applies to part of the light.

The Cateye AU100 is a classic, as the BS6102/3 standard was for the reflector part, not the actual light!







It is also possible to have a light that meets the RVLR, but fails the BS and vice - versa!

My practice is to have a set of lights that have a BS mark and hence are "legal" I than have backup lifghts in the form of a MagicShine front and rear setup.


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## Davidc (22 May 2013)

Flashers aren't illegal since 2005 but my observation as a driver is that in the dark I see flashing lights later than steady ones (front and back) and as a cyclist I'm certain this applies to other people.

As TC says they're also b. annoying for other cyclists and pedestrians too.

I do use flashing rear, both in daylight and in conjunction with steady lighting.

My experience agrees with the German research results - and no flashing lights are allowed there.

As for standards, my dynamo lights are all K marked, so by default I have fully legal lighting.

Edit: Date corrected.


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## ufkacbln (22 May 2013)

Then justto be cotraversial.......

Personally I think the lighting laws for vehicles and bicles are unmanageable, poorly written and need to be rewritten with a bit of knowledge and commen sense.

Is the strip of red LEDs around an indicator panel really road legal for a car?

A set of regulations that forces manafacturers to produce practical lights, with a beam pattern that allows higher power lights to be used safely, and has minimum standards that can easily be applied.


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## MontyVeda (22 May 2013)

driving instructors, like many other 'trained' professionals.... are a font of bullsh!t


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## Davidc (22 May 2013)

Cunobelin said:


> Then justto be cotraversial.......
> 
> Personally I think the lighting laws for vehicles and bicles are unmanageable, poorly written and need to be rewritten with a bit of knowledge and commen sense.
> 
> ...


 
Agree 100% We now have vehicle lights which can dazzle badly (including bike lights) including front and rear, through to some which are legal but far too dim. just as bad are lights with indicator lamps in the centre of brake and rear lights, so that with the bright brake lights on the indicator becomes invisible (such as VW Passats and the new Ka).

HID lights should IMO be banned completely.


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## theclaud (22 May 2013)

2466633 said:


> Not more rules


I know you love 'em.


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## ufkacbln (22 May 2013)

Davidc said:


> Agree 100% We now have vehicle lights which can dazzle badly (including bike lights) including front and rear, through to some which are legal but far too dim. just as bad are lights with indicator lamps in the centre of brake and rear lights, so that with the bright brake lights on the indicator becomes invisible (such as VW Passats and the new Ka).
> 
> HID lights should IMO be banned completely.


 
HID are mere fireflys in a jar compared to some of the Cree LEDs


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## Davidc (22 May 2013)

Cunobelin said:


> HID are mere fireflys in a jar compared to some of the Cree LEDs


There's something particularly disabling about HID lights, they knock out my vision for longer than any others to the extent that on the bike where I can't screen them off much I've had to pull over several times and wait for my eyes to recover.


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## addictfreak (22 May 2013)

Another 8 minutes of my life that I won't get back!

I'm just wonder if TD actually works, or just prowls the streets of London looking for incident and confrontation.


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## GrasB (22 May 2013)

Davidc said:


> HID lights should IMO be banned completely.





Davidc said:


> There's something particularly disabling about HID lights, they knock out my vision for longer than any others to the extent that on the bike where I can't screen them off much I've had to pull over several times and wait for my eyes to recover.


Badly aligned HIDs & one right on the edge of upper adjustment are really bad due to the amount of light they put out. My guess is you have good light sensitivity so the 'volume' of light put out by marginally adjusted/patterned HIDs is causing you problems.



Cunobelin said:


> HID are mere fireflys in a jar compared to some of the Cree LEDs


LEDs don't get CLOSE to HIDs for output but they can be much more intense. This low volume high intensity causes problems with after images across a person's vision.


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## chernij (22 May 2013)

I've had a driver comment to me about the strength of my light before, stating it was too bright. Was I right in telling him that his car's headlights were a heck of a lot stronger?


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## GrasB (22 May 2013)

chernij said:


> I've had a driver comment to me about the strength of my light before, stating it was too bright. Was I right in telling him that his car's headlights were a heck of a lot stronger?


Yes, no & maybe - See Which light is brighter? posts #32 & #33

But I think this about sums up the answer to your question really 


> Good see-by bike lights often come out at around 1-4lumen/mm2, but have 300-80mm2 of surface area, respectively, they emit light from. My Alfa nominally has a surface area of around 4400mm2 per headlight but a surface brightness intensity of around 0.6-0.65 lumen/mm2 above it's cut-off (and some people consider that objectionable), that's a whopping 2750 lumen x2... not counting the light that's thrown out bellow the cut-off where the apparent intensity is much higher!


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## Boris Bajic (22 May 2013)

chernij said:


> I've had a driver comment to me about the strength of my light before, stating it was too bright. Was I right in telling him that his car's headlights were a heck of a lot stronger?


 
Car headlamps on dipped beam (which is what we should usually see when approaching an oncoming car) are directed down and to the left. They do not dazzle.

Some (thankfully very few) cyclists use gert bigg searchlights on their handlebars and direct them at drivers' eyes. I do not know why.

As a general rule, if a driver complains about your cycling lamp, it's worth checking (in a shop window or similar) whether they are set to 'dazzle'.


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## ShipHill (22 May 2013)

It wouldn't surprise me at all if flashing cycle lights are illegal.

I think this because our laws are drafted by idiotic simpletons who can barely make it out the Commons bar before dozing off in the chamber then get cattle prodded to vote how they're told to by a simpering, fawning toadie.

In actual fact, I think everything is probably legal and illegal at the same time.

And let's not overlook how this very interesting conversation is happening in broad daylight.

Yawnarama.


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## Mugshot (22 May 2013)

ShipHill said:


> It wouldn't surprise me at all if flashing cycle lights are illegal.
> 
> I think this because our laws are drafted by idiotic simpletons who can barely make it out the Commons bar before dozing off in the chamber then get cattle prodded to vote how they're told to by a simpering, fawning toadie.
> 
> ...


Whachu talkin bout ShipHill?


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## Davidc (22 May 2013)

ShipHill said:


> It wouldn't surprise me at all if flashing cycle lights are illegal.


 
Well, they're not. Legalised many years ago.


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## chernij (22 May 2013)

User said:


> Depends on your light. There are some bike lights out there where the output is higher than a car headlight (albeit only headlight, rather than two in normal use).


Mine isn't, as far as I'm aware. Just a standard CatEye headlight.


2466737 said:


> There is also the issue of many being simple beam patterns, equivalent to riding around on full beam.





GrasB said:


> Yes, no & maybe - See Which light is brighter? posts #32 & #33
> 
> But I think this about sums up the answer to your question really


Interesting stuff.


Boris Bajic said:


> Car headlamps on dipped beam (which is what we should usually see when approaching an oncoming car) are directed down and to the left. They do not dazzle.
> Some (thankfully very few) cyclists use gert bigg searchlights on their handlebars and direct them at drivers' eyes. I do not know why.
> As a general rule, if a driver complains about your cycling lamp, it's worth checking (in a shop window or similar) whether they are set to 'dazzle'.


Will do. I didn't have my headlight on straight, had it slightly down to try and get a dipped beam


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## ShipHill (22 May 2013)

User said:


> Our laws are not drafted by MPs but by Parliamentary draftsmen(persons).


They'll do... What I mean is that I believe that the UK's laws are written and passed by idiots a lot of the time. Loopholes, inconsistencies, lack of common sense... blah blah blah.

Example.... a few years back I was in my local car repair shop chatting to the mechanic about when they could fix my heap of junk... sorry luxury family saloon. The car he was MOTing was a hatchback of some sort, and it had blue lights on the front.

Me... "Ooh there's a fail right there Dave."
Dave,,,, "What's that?"
Me... "Blue light. Only cops etc can have them.... yes?"
Dave... "Providing they're switched separately to other lights then it's not an MOT fail. Mad but true."


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## GrumpyGregry (22 May 2013)

Boris Bajic said:


> Car headlamps on dipped beam (which is what we should usually see when approaching an oncoming car) are directed down and to the left. They do not dazzle.
> 
> Some (thankfully very few) cyclists use gert bigg searchlights on their handlebars and direct them at drivers' eyes. I do not know why.


 

Help me out BB, help me out...

How many cyclists were killed or seriously injured or just plain frightened off the roads last year by car drivers? (many of whom driver for weeks with defective lights)

-vs-

How many poor ickle dwivers had how many seconds of their driving enjoyment spoiled by the nasty men* on the bicycles with the too bright lights?

*other gender groups are available.


> As a general rule, if a driver complains about your cycling lamp, it's worth checking (in a shop window or similar) whether they are set to 'dazzle'.


As a general rule, if a driver complains about my cycling they're a twunting fecktard knobjockey. And a fat one at that.


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## GrumpyGregry (22 May 2013)

ShipHill said:


> Me... "Ooh there's a fail right there Dave."
> Dave,,,, "What's that?"
> Me... "Blue light. Only cops etc can have them.... yes?"
> Dave... "Providing they're switched separately to other lights then it's not an MOT fail. Mad but true."


According to plod:

Blue lights - Under the Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989, it states "except for emergency vehicles it is an offence to fit a blue warning beacon or special warning lamp or device resembling such whether working or not"

according to my lawyer mate the courts ain't into trying to define a blue led as a warning beacon or special warning lamp or device resembling such for fear of looking daft on appeal.


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## addictfreak (22 May 2013)

I seem to remember reading somewhere that these flashing lights are legal for use as back up or primary lights, as long as they conform to the right colour. I.E white front and red rear, there flashing frequency also needs to be with in certain limits.
I can't see any copper stopping you and counting the number of flashes per minute!


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## ShipHill (22 May 2013)

Davidc said:


> Well, they're not. Legalised many years ago.


 
Sounds great, but I wouldn't be shocked in the slightest if the following came out....


In a shock announcement by Sir Lord Henry Blather-Clipboard IV Secretary of State for Complicated Matters today, it was revealed that all laws passed in the UK or EU since 1980 are technically null and void because of various glaring errors and oversights by poorly trained and resourced civil servants and officials of Her Maj's government.


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## Davidc (22 May 2013)

ShipHill said:


> Sounds great, but I wouldn't be shocked in the slightest if the following came out....
> 
> 
> In a shock announcement by Sir Lord Henry Blather-Clipboard IV Secretary of State for Complicated Matters today, it was revealed that all laws passed in the UK or EU since 1980 are technically null and void because of various glaring errors and oversights by poorly trained and resourced civil servants and officials of Her Maj's government.


 
The post suggests that you're a plonker.


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## Boris Bajic (22 May 2013)

GregCollins said:


> Help me out BB, help me out...
> 
> How many cyclists were killed or seriously injured or just plain frightened off the roads last year by car drivers? (many of whom driver for weeks with defective lights)
> 
> ...


 
Fair question Greg. I (like many on these pages) am a keen driver and a keen cyclist - both since my youth.

Like many road users, I am occasionally wound up by drivers or cyclists or motorcyclists who direct their lamps at my eyes.

The question I was answering was from a cyclist who was curious about a motorist telling him his lights were bright. I was just answering that question and adding some thoughts that have served me well. The member who had asked (Chernij) seemed grateful for my reply.

Had this been a driving forum (which I wouldn't be on anyway) I might have said that it annoys cyclists if the little blue lamp on your dash is illuminated when they're riding towards you. But it isn't. It's a cycling forum and I was giving what I thought at the time was a measured and considered response to a query.

I do not and cannot do the whole bicycles -v- cars thing, because I rarely know which I'll be in on any given day.

If you want to talk Spurs -v- Arsenal, I can entertain you. Not very well, but I can make a go of it.

Apologies if I sounded like a 'you don't pay Road tax' driver. I'm just another road user who doesn't enjoy being dazzled but does enjoy bicycles.


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## Enid Agnus Dei (22 May 2013)

Most cycle lights now say if they are used in flash mode you must by law have to have a none flashing light with them too, silly I prefer and feel safer with a rear flashing light.


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## ShipHill (22 May 2013)

Davidc said:


> The post suggests that you're a plonker.


So David..

I take it that you've never heard of legislation being overturned because it is technically illegal legislation?

Laws being repealed due to some oversight perhaps?

Regulations being impossible to implement due to loopholes? The recent tax scandals spring to mind for one,

I made my point in a jocular manner it's true, but my point is serious.

Laws are often made without thought and proper reasoning as to their legality, effectiveness, enforcement, consequences and so on.

And there's no need for abuse either.  Plonker... Only fools was quality.


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## Davidc (22 May 2013)

ShipHill said:


> So David..
> 
> I take it that you've never heard of legislation being overturned because it is technically illegal legislation?
> 
> ...


 
Plonker because the post was totally stupid. If I get abusive you'll know about it.

The incidence of what you're commenting on is extremely low.


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## Davidc (22 May 2013)

Enid Agnus Dei said:


> Most cycle lights now say if they are used in flash mode you must by law have to have a none flashing light with them too, silly I prefer and feel safer with a rear flashing light.


 
Not according to the RVLR amendment of 2005, provided they conform to the flash rate (1 to 4 per second) and are over 4 candela.

Adrian's suggestion is what I do at the back - one flashing and one steady. I usually run one flasher in daytime too.


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## GrumpyGregry (22 May 2013)

Boris Bajic said:


> Fair question Greg. I (like many on these pages) am a keen driver and a keen cyclist - both since my youth.
> .
> Apologies if I sounded like a 'you don't pay Road tax' driver. I'm just another road user who doesn't enjoy being dazzled but does enjoy bicycles.


 
Nah, you just sound like the petrol has rotted your brain a bit tis all.

I'm just another road user who doesn't enjoy being dazzled but does enjoy bicycles too. But no one ever seems to tell the drivers to stop the dazzling, nor check their lights in a shop window, whereas drivers, and other cyclists with a drivers-mindset, feel free to pick cyclists up on it. And I see one dazzling cyclist for every, say, 100 dazzling drivers and as for cars with defective lights.....

and... yawn... I drive when I have to, too. Tedious pursuit at the best of times these days. Far too many cars on the roads for me to be keen about driving. 1000 miles in a weekend was once the norm.


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## ShipHill (22 May 2013)

Davidc said:


> Plonker because the post was totally stupid. If I get abusive you'll know about it.
> 
> The incidence of what you're commenting on is extremely low.


 
You say my post was "stupid" yet agree that it does happen, although instances are low.

If that's stupid then I'll happily carry on being stupid....


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## Pat "5mph" (22 May 2013)

A bit OT but I'll tell you anyway 
Last winter, on entering the darkest of dark parks  part of my commute, I had my cateye on (only does steady beam, aimed at the ground for me to see) and a wee cheapy handle bar light, ah, and my helmet light to be seen at junctions.
So this loiterer kind of guy - what else could he have been? standing near the river side on a dark night, hauling wind, drizzling rain, watching ... complains my lights are too bright, that I have almost blinded him!
Well, I thought, serves you right for lurking in dark places!


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## Boris Bajic (23 May 2013)

GregCollins said:


> Nah, you just sound like the petrol has rotted your brain a bit tis all.
> 
> I'm just another road user who doesn't enjoy being dazzled but does enjoy bicycles too. But no one ever seems to tell the drivers to stop the dazzling, nor check their lights in a shop window, whereas drivers, and other cyclists with a drivers-mindset, feel free to pick cyclists up on it. And I see one dazzling cyclist for every, say, 100 dazzling drivers and as for cars with defective lights.....
> 
> and... yawn... I drive when I have to, too. Tedious pursuit at the best of times these days. Far too many cars on the roads for me to be keen about driving. 1000 miles in a weekend was once the norm.


 
OK. We disagree on some things.

I spend most of my life in the Three Counties, where the roads are empty, billowing ribbons of sinuous tarmac through a contoured and sylvan paradise. Driving and cycling out here are both a delight. Not tedious. far from it. I'm sorry it has become so for you.

Oddly, the shop-window thing was something I learned as a driver, as a way of seeing whether my headlights, indicators and rear lights worked as they should. I only used it on a bicycle after buying (then ditching) one of those crazy 10w/2w rechargeable lamps with an enormous battery in the bottle cage.

Perhaps the petrol has rotted my brain. I only use it in mowers and chainsaws now... We seem to have gone accidentally diesel with our cars.

You and I both seem to enjoy cycling, so that has to be a plus.


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## Dan B (23 May 2013)

Cunobelin said:


> It is however possible to have a light marked with one of these that only applies to part of the light.


and IIRC, not only possible but common to have a light which conforms to BS-whatever supplied with a mounting attachment that doesn't.
[/quote]


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## GrumpyGregry (23 May 2013)

Boris Bajic said:


> OK. We disagree on some things.
> 
> I spend most of my life in the Three Counties, where the roads are empty, billowing ribbons of sinuous tarmac through a contoured and sylvan paradise. Driving and cycling out here are both a delight. Not tedious. far from it. I'm sorry it has become so for you.
> 
> ...


The joy of CC is we can all disagree and still remain 'cybermates'. And I still enjoy your posts even if I don't agree.

The trial of CC is that a lot of commentators who are drivers to the core of their mindset, having been captured by the hydrocarbon powered private transport world view, play the "I'm a cyclist too." card, in the manner of #bloodycyclists, far too often.


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## Boris Bajic (23 May 2013)

GregCollins said:


> The joy of CC is we can all disagree and still remain 'cybermates'. And I still enjoy your posts even if I don't agree.
> 
> The trial of CC is that a lot of commentators who are drivers to the core of their mindset, having been captured by the hydrocarbon powered private transport world view, play the "I'm a cyclist too." card, in the manner of #bloodycyclists, far too often.


 
That has to be worth a 'like'. I appreciate it.

Tomorrow (and God knows why) I'm cycling to Hay Festival whatever the weather. Two of my kids have my car and are camping there for the week, so I cycle up tomorrow for a coiple of sessions, pick up the car and then drive back with it a week later, hand it oer and cycle home... Where is the justice?


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## theclaud (23 May 2013)

Leodis said:


> I mainly use the flashing front light for day time riding, if the sun isn’t quite up or its dark I don’t think twice. I have had more cars make room for me on the road due to the flashing light than at any other time.
> *Not too bothered if it upsets Peds or cyclists*, it won’t be them under the wheels.


 
Nice!


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## Leodis (23 May 2013)

theclaud said:


> Nice!


 


Yep, do I give two hoots about my flashing light annoying some stranger? Nope.


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## Leodis (23 May 2013)

2467764 said:


> There is no such thing as society, I blame Thatcher.


 
You would.


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## Boris Bajic (23 May 2013)

User said:


> We only need a Nazi reference now and we'll have a full house....


 
Will this do, or did you want some text?


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## classic33 (23 May 2013)

2467788 said:


> I know that this is just part of your long standing effort to portray yourself as of a higher social class but I understand that one does not shout bingo. The correct shout is house.


Unless he means he's got it. And if he has, I don't want it!


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## RiflemanSmith (23 May 2013)

Davidc said:


> Flashers aren't illegal since 2005 but my observation as a driver is that in the dark I see flashing lights later than steady ones (front and back) and as a cyclist I'm certain this applies to other people.
> Edit: Date corrected.


 
Ah that is why all important lights flash so you don't notice them as easily as steady lights, thanks for enlightening me.
Emergency vehicles, maintenance, bin lorries, indicators and any and all of those little blinking lights that are trying to grab your attention should be redesigned.


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## Davidc (23 May 2013)

RiflemanSmith said:


> Ah that is why all important lights flash so you don't notice them as easily as steady lights, thanks for enlightening me.
> Emergency vehicles, maintenance, bin lorries, indicators and any and all of those little blinking lights that are trying to grab your attention should be redesigned.


I'll go by the German research thanks for bike lights.

Take a good look. The lights to which you refer are all changing to continuous light output which uses multiple, timed, synchronised lamps to give the illusion of movement. Now could there be a well researched reason for this or is it just random fashion?

Flash your lights if you wish, I'll stick with maximising my own safety thanks.

Flashing lights of various sorts have their place and can be useful. I use a flashing rear light on the bike in daylight, and a combination of steady and flash on the back at night to give continuous light and a variation to draw attention. I use continuous, steady white light on the front.


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## GrasB (23 May 2013)

RiflemanSmith said:


> Emergency vehicles, maintenance, bin lorries, indicators and any and all of those little blinking lights that are trying to grab your attention should be redesigned.





Davidc said:


> Take a good look. The lights to which you refer are all changing to continuous light output which uses multiple, timed, lamps to give the illusion of movement. Now could there be a well researched reason for this or is it just random fashion?


 
Emergency vehicles - depends on the vehicle. Some do, some don't.
Maintenance - around here most maintenance vehicles often have only 1 beacon light visible. Recently LED on/off strobes have started to be used rather than the more traditional bulb & rotating reflector.
Bin lorries - see above
Indicators - They run off an a relay which keeps all lights synchronous. The same goes for hazard warning lights. 
Various other lights - Crossing lights tend to be synchronous. Beacons on skips etc tend to be single visibility strobes. Most of the railway crossings I come across use both synchronous & asynchronous timings as are moving traffic direction beacons... 

hum... so maybe not eh!

Also I'd put money on you confusing 'seeing' & 'identifying', the latter has a surprisingly low relevance in good observation. It's a classic mistake I see people making all the time when driving. As I've said before, one of the best bits of observation I've ever done came in the comment along the lines of "Something fast moving in hedge coming into road" as I did an emergency stop... then a child ran into the road. I was stationary because I knew that something was going to enter the road space. I hadn't the opportunity to directly see the child, but because I was for movement & direction I instantly recognised the reflections & shadows which let me know what was going to happen. Most people wouldn't have reacted & may well have hit that kid in my position.


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## kedab (23 May 2013)

TrafficDroid said:


> Those who know.. maybe they can throw more light on this subject?



i believe you probably got all the feedback you wanted on your youtube channel, droid. this is a very old clip from you, why do you feel the need for more feedback here?


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## GrumpyGregry (23 May 2013)

[QUOTE 2467018, member: 30090"]We all have a responsibility out on the road. Talking about cyclist vs motorist ksi - ain't that a lame strawman argument?[/quote]
Is the concept of risk in cyclist vs motorist situations entirely lost on you?


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## GrumpyGregry (23 May 2013)

[QUOTE 2468662, member: 30090"]No[/quote]
Just mostly then given you claim cyclist vs motorist ksi stats are a lame strawman argument. Thanks for clearing that up.


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## Bill-H (23 May 2013)

Flashing front light in daylight. steady beam aimed downwards at night


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## GrumpyGregry (23 May 2013)

[QUOTE 2468681, member: 30090"]Come again?[/quote]
[QUOTE 2467018, member: 30090"]We all have a responsibility out on the road. Talking about cyclist vs motorist ksi - ain't that a lame strawman argument?[/quote]


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## Davidc (23 May 2013)

GrasB said:


> Emergency vehicles - depends on the vehicle. Some do, some don't.
> Maintenance - around here most maintenance vehicles often have only 1 beacon light visible. Recently LED on/off strobes have started to be used rather than the more traditional bulb & rotating reflector.
> Bin lorries - see above
> Indicators - They run off an a relay which keeps all lights synchronous. The same goes for hazard warning lights.
> ...


 
I don't confuse those so you'd loose all your money, and I'm well aware of the general effects and visibility of flashing lights. New emergency and utility vehicles are nearly all fitted with lights as I described in order to be seen.

The issue here is being seen as a moving bicycle, not being recognised as a pedestrian crossing or refuse vehicle.

At night a steady (and bright) white front light means I have only minimal problems with motor vehicles or other road users. A flasher on its own seems to render me invisible, as it does for other cyclists when I'm driving. It's also annoying.

I've previously described my preference at the back, and why.

How you choose to light your bike, if it's legal, is your decision. I'll continue to light mine to give me the best visibility and driver response.

Within reason I rate the most important factor in bike lighting as brightness, especially when I'm in South London.


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## Leodis (24 May 2013)

I can’t believe a debate on bike lights flashing has turned into 6 pages.

So what are your thoughts on torches been used as bike lights? _*runs for cover*_


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## classic33 (24 May 2013)

Leodis said:


> I can’t believe a debate on bike lights flashing has turned into 6 pages.
> 
> So what are your thoughts on torches been used as bike lights? _*runs for cover*_


Get a 4 D cell maglite. If all else fails it can come in handy for clouting someone.


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## Jezston (24 May 2013)

kedab said:


> i believe you probably got all the feedback you wanted on your youtube channel, droid. this is a very old clip from you, why do you feel the need for more feedback here?



I think that our TrafficDroid appears to have been banned from the forum answers that question.


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## snorri (24 May 2013)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Well, I thought, serves you right for lurking in dark places!


Most likely just an innocent amateur astronomer studying the night skies


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## glasgowcyclist (24 May 2013)

Jezston said:


> I think that our TrafficDroid appears to have been banned from the forum answers that question.




Has he really been banned?
What did he do to merit that?

GC


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## Pat "5mph" (24 May 2013)

snorri said:


> Most likely just an innocent amateur astronomer studying the night skies


Well, should have been staring at the skies, not at my headlamp


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## Pat "5mph" (24 May 2013)

Jezston said:


> I think that our TrafficDroid appears to have been banned from the forum answers that question.


Why banned? He's a polite chap, if a bit maniac


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## Pat "5mph" (24 May 2013)

[QUOTE 2470858, member: 30090"]Ask the mods in site feedback....[/quote]
Cheers for that, no need to disturb any Mods, was just idle curiosity on my part.


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## Pat "5mph" (24 May 2013)

2470862 said:


> For someone who joined five days ago, you sure do know your way around.


Maybe @User30090 has satnav for internet forums


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## Cyclopathic (25 May 2013)

Only read the first page here because I've read similar threads before. I thought the long and short of it was that flashing lights are legal within certain perameters and that ultimately nobody anywhere gives a flying fig about it. Has anybody ever been done for it? As far as crimes go it seems about as serious as not practicing archery on a Sunday. Honestly, who cares? I don't. Do you? See, nobody cares. Nobody. Except that bloke in the car obviously, but he is the only one ever. Nobody else. Ever.


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## kedab (25 May 2013)

User said:


> As I understand it, he wasn't banned - he flounced because we weren't taking his utterances seriously enough and giving him enough respect... or some such excuse.


I followed his vids for a bit on youtube - he seemed alright but then he disappeared right up his own chuff and when he shouted, 'speeding!' at some dude in a beautiful Merc, who simply blipped his throttle a bit going past him, I lost any respect. oh and the other vid where he basically called a copper's attention to some dude who was doing/not doing something the traffictwunt found upsetting - then I wanted to chin him


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## ComedyPilot (25 May 2013)

I followed him on UyoTube for a while, but his use of flashing lights set off my photo sensitive epilepsy.

Got sick of waking up with a mouth full computer mouse cord and the letters YTREWQ on my forehead.


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## sabian92 (25 May 2013)

ComedyPilot said:


> I followed him on UyoTube for a while, but his use of flashing lights set off my photo sensitive epilepsy.
> 
> Got sick of waking up with a mouth full computer mouse cord and the letters YTREWQ on my forehead.



I shouldn't laugh but that did make me giggle  I do sympathise though, my dad is epileptic and I have a very high chance of developing. Will serve me right for laughing I suppose....


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## classic33 (25 May 2013)

sabian92 said:


> I shouldn't laugh but that did make me giggle  I do sympathise though, my dad is epileptic and I have a very high chance of developing. Will serve me right for laughing I suppose....


I've sufferred lifelong with .it, epilepsy, and to put it in simple terms comments like that are not in the least bit funny.
Have your laugh now, but I hope you never find out what its like to live with, at a personal level.


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## ComedyPilot (25 May 2013)

My comment wasn't meant to offend people who suffer from epilespsy - more a comment on how f*ckin' irritating flashing lights are on a bike.....


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## BlackPanther (25 May 2013)

ComedyPilot said:


> My comment wasn't meant to offend people who suffer from epilespsy - more a comment on how f*ckin' irritating flashing lights are on a bike.....


 
Irritating? I don't understand why? They're very effective for making your presence known, especially on those days when light is low. Even at night though, I've never had any negative comments in 3 years of riding with Blackburn rears on 'strobe' setting. TBH I don't give a fig if my lights are "f*ckin' irritating" to a small percentage of drivers (1%), as long as they prevented a large percentage (99%) of drivers from driving into the back of me in a smidsy like fashion! As for setting off epilepsy, they don't flash anywhere near fast enough to trigger attacks.


 Below quote is from the epilepsy foundation.
"The frequency or speed of flashing light that is most likely to cause seizures varies from person to person. Generally, flashing lights most likely to trigger seizures are between the frequency of 5 to 30 flashes per second (Hertz)." 



Below, from Wiki, but hey, it's probably correct.(?)

a light with a steady mode is considered approved only if it conforms to BS 6102/3 or an equivalent European standard;
a light without a steady mode is considered approved only if it flashes at a constant rate of between 60 to 240 flashes per minute and has a luminous intensity of at least 4 candela;
I would guess that anything that flashes 4 or less times per second is deemed to be safe for epileptics, and the reason that all approved lights flash 60-240 times a minute/1-4 times a second is because of the above reasoning.

Your honour, the defense rests.


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## classic33 (25 May 2013)

As I said a lifetime of living with it, epilepsy, and comments such as this


sabian92 said:


> I shouldn't laugh but that did make me giggle  I do sympathise though, my dad is epileptic and I have a very high chance of developing. Will serve me right for laughing I suppose....


 I don't find funny. I did say that I hope he never has to find out what its like to live with it, at a personal level.
It wasn't an attack by me on the use of flashing lights on bikes, I use them on the rear of my own. The guidance with regards the flash rate triggering a fit/seizure is simply that guidance. I've had one whilst undergoing the stroble light testing at Pinderfields many years ago and the flash rate was only 2 per second. Even they were uncertain if it caused it.


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## Jezston (26 May 2013)

User said:


> As I understand it, he wasn't banned - he flounced because we weren't taking his utterances seriously enough and giving him enough respect... or some such excuse.


 
Be interested in getting the full story then - I remember coming online and seeing TD had posted _three _new threads and one of the mods calling him out on it accusing him of not participating in any other threads than his own, and then I noticed TD's profile picture had vanished and status marked as 'guest', so guessed he got banned for spamming.


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## Cyclopathic (27 May 2013)

Boris Bajic said:


> I use one or two small front lights and one or two small rear ones. Both LEDs (Cateye Cube?).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree. A flashing front light makes it harder to determine the speed of an oncoming bike. When the light is constant it is easier to discern whether it has a slightly blue or slightly red tinge which, if one applies the Doppler theory will tell you if it is coming towards or going away. The degree of "tinge" determines the speed. A flashing light makes this observation almost impossible and renders subsequent calculations unreliable. 
Of course mistakes can be made and a bike you thought was travelling away from you at phenomenal speed could just turn out to be the red rear light of a cyclist going away from you. Or the other way around. It is important to know what each "tinge" denotes before commiting oneself to this system.
Flashing lights can be used to calculate speed but it requires measuring the time each pulse takes to get from the light to your eyes and using the difference in those times to work it out.


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## snorri (27 May 2013)

BlackPanther said:


> TBH I don't give a fig if my lights are "f*ckin' irritating" to a small percentage of drivers (1%), as long as they prevented a large percentage (99%) of drivers from driving into the back of me in a smidsy like fashion! .


 
I would be looking for a much higher level of protection than 99%, best dump the flashers at that rate.


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## ComedyPilot (27 May 2013)

A flashing light has the effect of grabbing the eye's attention against the rest of the background.

IMO a permenantly flashing light is irritating both to me as a rider (in the dark) and to the recipients of it (car drivers, peds, other cyclists etc) all the time.

Wouldn't it be better to have a solid light, with a built in switching ability to flash (for attention) on demand depending on situation? This could be triggered by a button on the bars, a bit like a visual horn?


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## BentMikey (27 May 2013)

There's no need for this argument. A lot of lights like the Exposure series have a pulse mode, where the front light is permanently on low, and strobes over the top of this.

For me, that's a good daylight setting. At night I want a powerful light on constantly, as drivers then treat me more the way they should, like I'm a motorcycle, and less like a cyclist that can be pulled out in front of with impunity.


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## classic33 (27 May 2013)

Pat "5mph" said:


> A bit OT but I'll tell you anyway
> Last winter, on entering the darkest of dark parks  part of my commute, I had my cateye on (only does steady beam, aimed at the ground for me to see) and a wee cheapy handle bar light, ah, and my helmet light to be seen at junctions.
> So this *loiterer kind of guy* - what else could he have been? standing near the river side on a dark night, *hauling wind, drizzling rain, watching* ... complains my lights are too bright, that I have almost blinded him!
> Well, I thought, serves you right for lurking in dark places!


 Sure he was a he! Not a she. Hauling that lot it makes him sound more like Mother Nature in a bad mood.


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## BlackPanther (27 May 2013)

snorri said:


> I would be looking for a much higher level of protection than 99%, best dump the flashers at that rate.


 
99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% then.


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## Pat "5mph" (27 May 2013)

classic33 said:


> Sure he was a he! Not a she. Hauling that lot it makes him sound more like Mother Nature in a bad mood.


He was a he for sure, spoke to me on the shared path ...


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## sabian92 (27 May 2013)

classic33 said:


> I've sufferred lifelong with .it, epilepsy, and to put it in simple terms comments like that are not in the least bit funny.
> Have your laugh now, but I hope you never find out what its like to live with, at a personal level.



Don't think for a moment I'm mocking you - I'm not and I'm have the utmost sympathy (without pitying in that patronising way) for epileptics. I've seen fits and spent many hours in hospitals with my dad, including 3 days in Arizona Heart Hospital when we were on holiday. It was just what you said that humoured me, not the epilepsy.

I know full well what it is like and although I personally don't suffer with it I probably will (80% chance if not higher) by the time I am 40, which is only 19 and a bit years from now. I already suffer with a learning disability anyway so I have a better understanding than most of struggling day to day with a lifelong condition.

I do apologise if I offended you - that certainly wasn't my intention.


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## classic33 (27 May 2013)

sabian92 said:


> Don't think for a moment I'm mocking you - I'm not and I'm have the utmost sympathy (without pitying in that patronising way) for epileptics. I've seen fits and spent many hours in hospitals with my dad, including 3 days in Arizona Heart Hospital when we were on holiday. It was just what you said that humoured me, not the epilepsy.
> 
> I know full well what it is like and although I personally don't suffer with it I probably will (80% chance if not higher) by the time I am 40, which is only 19 and a bit years from now. I already suffer with a learning disability anyway so I have a better understanding than most of struggling day to day with a lifelong condition.
> 
> I do apologise if I offended you - that certainly wasn't my intention.


I accept the apology you've offerred.
I get annoyed when others treat something I have to live with as joke. For me its not a joke, its a life sentence.


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## sabian92 (28 May 2013)

classic33 said:


> I accept the apology you've offerred.
> I get annoyed when others treat something I have to live with as joke. For me its not a joke, its a life sentence.


 
Nah, I understand. My dyspraxia is the same and makes life a pain in the arse most (actually, all) days. I wasn't mocking your condition it was just the image of what you described, and to be honest I feel a bit of a prick now.


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