# Mechanical doping



## themosquitoking (11 May 2015)

So i see they're checking for this at the Giro, anyone got any links to how i can do it?


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## classic33 (11 May 2015)

Electric pedals?


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## fossyant (11 May 2015)

classic33 said:


> Electric pedals?
> View attachment 88660



Never spot them.....


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## fossyant (11 May 2015)

I can't imagine a motor could produce enough advantage at all really.


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## classic33 (11 May 2015)

fossyant said:


> Never spot them.....


Worth a go though?


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## themosquitoking (11 May 2015)

User said:


> One of these


Is it quiet enough?


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## MisterStan (11 May 2015)

Article on CyclingTips http://cyclingtips.com.au/2015/04/hidden-motors-for-road-bikes-exist-heres-how-they-work/


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## ianrauk (11 May 2015)

MisterStan said:


> Article on CyclingTips




Links not working


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## MisterStan (11 May 2015)

Stupid iPad


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## themosquitoking (11 May 2015)

MisterStan said:


> Article on CyclingTips http://cyclingtips.com.au/2015/04/hidden-motors-for-road-bikes-exist-heres-how-they-work/


I want one. How much?


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## MisterStan (11 May 2015)

themosquitoking said:


> I want one. How much?


AUD $4300 it's written in the article.


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## classic33 (11 May 2015)

themosquitoking said:


> I want one. How much?


_"The basic vivax Assist package costs in the vicinity of *AUD $4,300(£2,178)* and comes with a battery pack, a saddle bag for housing the battery, a charger, a seatpost for housing an electronic control unit, the motor itself and the adapters necessary to connect the motor to the crankshaft of the bike."_


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## raleighnut (12 May 2015)

MisterStan said:


> Article on CyclingTips http://cyclingtips.com.au/2015/04/hidden-motors-for-road-bikes-exist-heres-how-they-work/


Sneaky.


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## themosquitoking (12 May 2015)

MisterStan said:


> AUD $4300 it's written in the article.





classic33 said:


> _"The basic vivax Assist package costs in the vicinity of *AUD $4,300(£2,178)* and comes with a battery pack, a saddle bag for housing the battery, a charger, a seatpost for housing an electronic control unit, the motor itself and the adapters necessary to connect the motor to the crankshaft of the bike."_



Is that real money though.


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## MisterStan (12 May 2015)

themosquitoking said:


> Is that real money though.


The Aussie's seem to think so....


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## themosquitoking (12 May 2015)

MisterStan said:


> The Aussie's seem to think so....


According to bus stops around here they also only drink stuff for breakfast.


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## Crackle (12 May 2015)

Is there anything in this mechanical doping. I found it hard to believe in the beginning but I've raised a few eyebrows since they started testing the bikes. They'll be ducking the riders to see if they float or sink soon.


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## themosquitoking (12 May 2015)

Crackle said:


> Is there anything in this mechanical doping. I found it hard to believe in the beginning but I've raised a few eyebrows since they started testing the bikes. They'll be ducking the riders to see if they float or sink soon.


I'd like to try a bike that had been doping.


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## Hont (12 May 2015)

fossyant said:


> I can't imagine a motor could produce enough advantage at all really.


When this first became mooted (after Cancellara's dominant Flanders win) an ex-rider tested a unit that was capable of producing 50 watts. That's the difference being dropped and being able to attack.


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## fossyant (12 May 2015)

Hont said:


> When this first became mooted (after Cancellara's dominant Flanders win) an ex-rider tested a unit that was capable of producing 50 watts. That's the difference being dropped and being able to attack.



Canch has been world TT champ a number of times so riding off the front was no surprise


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## MisterStan (12 May 2015)

Hont said:


> When this first became mooted (after Cancellara's dominant Flanders win) an ex-rider tested a unit that was capable of producing 50 watts. That's the difference being dropped and being able to attack.


The unit in the linked article is said to be capable of producing double that.


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## classic33 (12 May 2015)

MisterStan said:


> The unit in the linked article is said to be capable of producing double that.


Rated at 200w, 250w being the Australian limit for electric assist.


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## themosquitoking (12 May 2015)

200w is more than i can put out for any great amount of time.


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## MisterStan (12 May 2015)

classic33 said:


> Rated at 200w, 250w being the Australian limit for electric assist.


Sigh.... 

_The Vivax assist motor is rated at 200 watts (the maximum for e-bikes in Australia is 250W, beyond which they are classified as motorbikes) but in reality, we were told, *the unit provides somewhere in the vicinity of 110W to the driveshaft.* This is in addition to whatever the rider is pushing through the pedals._


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## oldroadman (12 May 2015)

Two words: Gruber Assist. Check it out. The commissaires can do random scans now on bikes, and so far all the scans have produced - nothing.


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## classic33 (12 May 2015)

http://www.vivax-assist.com/en/produkte/e-accessoires/invisible-performance-package.html


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## HF2300 (13 May 2015)

oldroadman said:


> Two words: Gruber Assist. Check it out. The commissaires can do random scans now on bikes, and so far all the scans have produced - nothing.



I think Gruber Assist and Vivax Assist are the same thing - either Vivax have taken over Gruber or they are marketing it as Vivax.

Never mind scans, the commissaires stripped a lot of bikes after one of the classics - seatpost out, pedals and crank out - and found nothing



classic33 said:


> http://www.vivax-assist.com/en/produkte/e-accessoires/invisible-performance-package.html



It doesn't seem to me that the 'stealth' kit as advertised would really hide the equipment to the level necessary for mechanical doping - some details would still be visible to an interested party even on just a close look round the bike. It wouldn't be difficult to genuinely stealth it though, particularly if you have tame frame makers etc.

Looking at the kit I wonder how reliable these would be (for a leisure rider) in the long term, and whether you'd run out of battery if using it a lot in one day - the motor mounting doesn't seem particularly secure, and the batteries aren't big. Still, won't be long before someone adds regenerative braking or finds a way to charge it on the downhills...


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## classic33 (13 May 2015)

Why would you have to finish on the same bike though!


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## HF2300 (13 May 2015)

classic33 said:


> Why would you have to finish on the same bike though!



They also quarantine and strip down spare bikes, or at least have in the past, and I suppose on a major event it'd be difficult to drop out of the caravan enough to quietly lose a bike.


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## The Couch (13 May 2015)

I posted some info on this earlier on here
The link to the Dutch tv report is still active for anyone interested in seeing it in work (and tested by an ex-pro **kuch** doper **kuch**)


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## jarlrmai (13 May 2015)

Are there specific rules and punishments for this kind of cheating?


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## Flying_Monkey (13 May 2015)

And here's the video that started it all... from 2010.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Nd13ARuvVE

I'm certainly not convinced by the 2010 video, but the more I watch the footage of Cancellara vs. Boonen and combine it with the bike changes and the test in that Dutch program, the less unlikely the accusations against Cancellara seem.


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## User169 (13 May 2015)

jarlrmai said:


> Are there specific rules and punishments for this kind of cheating?



UCI recently introduced new rules/sanctions - @Flying_Monkey posted them somewhere in this forum.

Edit: here you go..

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-introduces-new-sanctions-against-motorised-doping


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## jarlrmai (13 May 2015)

Surely the other riders would hear the motor, when I ride in a group I'm very aware of the noise of the bikes around me an electric motor would be very noticeable.


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## Smokin Joe (13 May 2015)

jarlrmai said:


> Surely the other riders would hear the motor, when I ride in a group I'm very aware of the noise of the bikes around me an electric motor would be very noticeable.


Anyone using one wouldn't need it on the whole time. Jump off the front and when you have 50 metres use the motor for however long it takes to get well clear.


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## Flying_Monkey (13 May 2015)

Smokin Joe said:


> Anyone using one wouldn't need it on the whole time. Jump off the front and when you have 50 metres use the motor for however long it takes to get well clear.



And especially in a crowded section of cobbled race, you wouldn't hear a thing. It would be a bit different on a track!


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## jarlrmai (13 May 2015)

In the video the 1st time they show FC apparently using it he goes past that small group on smooth roads, but you can see that it's one of those moments when the group are slow and looking at each other to see if anyone is going to chase him.


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## Flying_Monkey (13 May 2015)

jarlrmai said:


> In the video the 1st time they show FC apparently using it he goes past that small group on smooth roads, but you can see that it's one of those moments when the group are slow and looking at each other to see if anyone is going to chase him.



Yeah that one isn't remotely convincing; it's the cobbled climb that makes me sit up and take a bit more notice - especially coupled with the bike changes.


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## themosquitoking (13 May 2015)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Yeah that one isn't remotely convincing; it's the cobbled climb that makes me sit up and take a bit more notice - especially coupled with the bike changes.


The acceleration there without getting out of the saddle was incredible.


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## Flying_Monkey (13 May 2015)

themosquitoking said:


> The acceleration there without getting out of the saddle was incredible.



It does seem so, but to play devil's advocate, there is a more conventional art to 'seated acceleration' that's practiced by some of the best sprinters (like Cav). But you wouldn't think that a rider like Boonen would be so easily distanced from that position.


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## Smokin Joe (13 May 2015)

Looking at those videos again the acceleration looks as effortless as it was incredible. I can't remember any footage of even Merckx in his prime riding away from a lowly domestique like that.


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## The Couch (15 May 2015)

Smokin Joe said:


> Looking at those videos again the acceleration looks as effortless as it was incredible. I can't remember any footage of even Merckx in his prime riding away from a lowly domestique like that.


I think you should watch back some old footage 

Here is another tv-report (called "Motorrace" ), this time a Belgian show.
There's 3 parts..
Part 1 has an amateur racer using it against (retired) Museeuw. Without engine, the amateur does his best but can't beat Museeuw (on the Kwaremont), the second time with engine he absolutely destroys him.
Part 2 shows how the bike can be made, the Cancellara bit in the RvV and some interviews of e.g. Boonen and the Sporza Commentator
In part 3 the same amateur takes part in an amateur race. He ends in the front group (somewhere during the race he solos to this front group). Aftwerwards, he says using it isn't great (he has to go each time to the end of his steering wheel), but most of all he feels very guilty, he didn't go for the win, but he did e.g. catch someone back in the final lap (who could have won if he hadn't of course).


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## jarlrmai (15 May 2015)

See the guilt part is something that makes me doubt it.

I can see the chemical/drug doping attitude and how that develops and the internal excuses some pro's used to justify it to themselves, Ie it was still them doing the work, everyone else was doing it, it makes up for that injury I had, I still trained as hard etc etc. But pressing a button to use an electric motor.... not sure even Lance would have done that.

Additionally with HD tv cameras now I can't see anyone getting away with it, unless DI2 etc can mask the turning on/off or a the team car can do it remotely (god this conspiracy theory shoot is like rabbit hole)


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## Hont (15 May 2015)

jarlrmai said:


> .... not sure even Lance would have done that.



Funniest thing I've read all day.


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## Smokin Joe (15 May 2015)

jarlrmai said:


> See the guilt part is something that makes me doubt it.
> 
> I can see the chemical/drug doping attitude and how that develops and the internal excuses some pro's used to justify it to themselves, Ie it was still them doing the work, everyone else was doing it, it makes up for that injury I had, I still trained as hard etc etc. But pressing a button to use an electric motor.... not sure even Lance would have done that.
> 
> Additionally with HD tv cameras now I can't see anyone getting away with it, unless DI2 etc can mask the turning on/off or a the team car can do it remotely (god this conspiracy theory shoot is like rabbit hole)


People cheat, full stop. That applies in all walks of life and cycling is not immune as we all know.

Now people know what to look for concealing buttons and switches would be harder, but not impossible. You only need a pressure switch under the bar tape with the wiring running internally to be almost impossible to spot.

Setting a limit on Armstrong's lack of integrity is a hard thing to do too.


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## Flying_Monkey (15 May 2015)

Smokin Joe said:


> Now people know what to look for concealing buttons and switches would be harder, but not impossible. You only need a pressure switch under the bar tape with the wiring running internally to be almost impossible to spot.



The easiest way to do it would be to have remote switching by wireless from a team car or from someone in the crowd...


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## classic33 (15 May 2015)

Flying_Monkey said:


> The easiest way to do it would be to have remote switching by wireless from a team car or from someone in the crowd...


Remote switching requires two signals be sent. 
The first to activate it, the second to deactivate. If the finish is a restricted area, detection of any signal would be easy.


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## jarlrmai (17 May 2015)

Race radio's and codewords then you don't need any buttons on the outside.

I cant see the commissars running mobile RF signal detection though all the RF noise from police, spectators and general from the surrounding towns etc would make it impossible.


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## Smurfy (31 Jan 2016)

Wasn't sure whether to put this in here, or in the Electric Bikes sub-forum.

*Rider implicated after motor found on bike at world cyclo-cross championships *
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/jan/30/hidden-motor-bike-world-cyclo-cross-championships


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## Flying_Monkey (31 Jan 2016)

I wonder what the people who scoffed at the idea earlier are now thinking... I suspect that, while not widespread, there will certainly be more than one female U23 CX rider up to this...


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## Flick of the Elbow (31 Jan 2016)

Blimey this must be serious, it just got cyclo cross a report in the Radio 2 news summary. Has cross ever been even mentioned on R2 before ?
(Obviously somewhat overshadowed by the sad news of Sir Terry's death. RIP.)


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## 400bhp (31 Jan 2016)

Flying_Monkey said:


> I wonder what the people who scoffed at the idea earlier are now thinking... I suspect that, while not widespread, there will certainly be more than one female U23 CX rider up to this...



If it's true then, given the category (U23 women) there's a very good chance there's a culture of it which needs stamping out quickly.


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## fossyant (31 Jan 2016)

It's not my bike excuse is coming out.


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## winjim (31 Jan 2016)

fossyant said:


> It's not my bike excuse is coming out.


Somebody else from her team just popped it into the pits did they? Fine, ban the entire team.


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## deptfordmarmoset (31 Jan 2016)

winjim said:


> Somebody else from her team just popped it into the pits did they? Fine, ban the entire team.


The Belgian team sent her away pretty sharpish and have wasted no time in accepting that it was an illegal bike. Either it's 100% her (and the mate what gave it to her in the pub the night before ) or she'll have dirt to dish out later on.


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## PhilDawson8270 (31 Jan 2016)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> The Belgian team sent her away pretty sharpish and have wasted no time in accepting that it was an illegal bike. Either it's 100% her (and the mate what gave it to her in the pub the night before ) or she'll have dirt to dish out later on.



I imagine if it was set up by the team, she will be well paid to keep hush.


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## midlife (31 Jan 2016)

Wasn't she the favourite to win? I wonder if she had used it before then...............

Shaun


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## Crackle (31 Jan 2016)

Flying_Monkey said:


> I wonder what the people who scoffed at the idea earlier are now thinking... I suspect that, while not widespread, there will certainly be more than one female U23 CX rider up to this...


Surprised but still scoffing at the earlier speculation. If people speculate, I guess we shouldn't be surprised when someone tries to execute the idea. The fact that they chose cyclocross is puzzling as you think there'd be more scope for things to go quite badly wrong. But then her brother is already suspended for doping.


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## deptfordmarmoset (31 Jan 2016)

Cxmagazine says Cookson was going to hold a press conference at 9am this morning. Does anybody have any info on this? (The UCI site is saying nothing.)


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## Crackle (31 Jan 2016)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> Cxmagazine says Cookson was going to hold a press conference at 9am this morning. Does anybody have any info on this? (The UCI site is saying nothing.)


Apart from some pictures and a few 'no place to hide' quotes, no.


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## deptfordmarmoset (31 Jan 2016)

Crackle said:


> Apart from some pictures and a few 'no place to hide' quotes, no.


Thanks. Well, the good news appears to be that the UCI has the technology to detect this generation of motor.


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## winjim (31 Jan 2016)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> The Belgian team sent her away pretty sharpish and have wasted no time in accepting that it was an illegal bike. Either it's 100% her (and the mate what gave it to her in the pub the night before ) or she'll have dirt to dish out later on.


So the teams pretty lax about what equipment they allow their riders to bring to the race? If it's a team sport then it simply cannot be 100% her. I think in all team sports the team should be sanctioned for individual transgressions. It might make people consider their actions a bit more carefully if they know they'll incur the wrath of their team mates / country.

ETA: copy/paste from Marmion's link on the other thread. Rider and team both liable, bike just needs to be present, not even ridden.


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## User169 (31 Jan 2016)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> Cxmagazine says Cookson was going to hold a press conference at 9am this morning. Does anybody have any info on this? (The UCI site is saying nothing.)



Sporza..

http://sporza.be/cm/sporza/wielrennen/veldrijden/1.2560226

"People laughed at the idea of mechanical doping, but now it's a reality"


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## andrew_s (31 Jan 2016)

midlife said:


> Wasn't she the favourite to win? I wonder if she had used it before then...............
> Shaun


The clinic has pointed to her time up the hill at the Koppenbergcross in November as being 5% faster than any of the pros (Cant, Wyman etc), and are wondering if it was a targeted check.

Edit:
Koppenberg clip (reminscent of Cancellara riding away on the Muur in 2010)

View: https://youtu.be/kv3CiyrRTMg


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## Keith Oates (31 Jan 2016)

Another problem and disgrace to our sport but the single biggest loser is her.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## fossyant (31 Jan 2016)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> Thanks. Well, the good news appears to be that the UCI has the technology to detect this generation of motor.



A big magnet ! If it sticks to your carbon seat tube, something is a miss, or you've bought a dodgy Chinese frame ?


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## Flying_Monkey (31 Jan 2016)

Crackle said:


> Surprised but still scoffing at the earlier speculation. If people speculate, I guess we shouldn't be surprised when someone tries to execute the idea.



Come on, are you seriously trying to blame the earlier speculation for riders (or teams) trying mechanical doping? On this logic, if we all just shut up about cheating, no-one would do it. That is ridiculous.

The earlier 'speculation' was based in the knowledge of the technical possibility of mechanical doping. And you can bet that within the sport, that knowledge was circulating a long time before it was public knowledge, in the same way that new drugs and procedures will be whispered about amongst riders and teams (which in turn are supplied by shadow networks of dubious laboratories). In this case, there will undoubtedly already be sources of assistance in mechanical doping, the only question is how many riders have used this. I suspect the numbers are small, but there will have almost certainly been races won because of it. Unlike drugs, however, there will be no trace that can be re-analysed later, unless someone happens to have a 'smoking gun' of a video / audio record of sufficient quality somewhere, and as we know from the Cancellara videos, video records are far from convincing, let alone 'proof', even when they are suggestive.


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## Crackle (31 Jan 2016)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Come on, are you seriously trying to blame the earlier speculation for riders (or teams) trying mechanical doping? On this logic, if we all just shut up about cheating, no-one would do it. That is ridiculous.


The last leap is yours not mine. All I was saying is that the realization of what's possible into some kind of reality is borne out of knowing you might be able to do it and like you say, the general public are probably the last to know of the possible so there's no real point in us keeping schtum.

I still don't find the Cancellera links etc.. convincing but the UCI have clearly taken the view, in light of cycling's history, that they should prepare for the possibility that someone might try it.

I still find myself surprised that someone has, though there's still no proof that it was actually used.


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## jarlrmai (31 Jan 2016)

Reading around the various places, the scuttlebutt is that the UCI commissioned an app that worked with thermal cameras and IOS devices (iPads)to detect motors and this was the 1st event they have been used at...


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## Smokin Joe (31 Jan 2016)

This should definitely result in a lifetime ban for the rider, and for any of the team officials that are found to be complicit. While you can accept that once in a while an athlete may have taken a banned substance in error there is no possible defence against having an electric motor fitted to the bike.


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## steveindenmark (31 Jan 2016)

jarlrmai said:


> Surely the other riders would hear the motor, when I ride in a group I'm very aware of the noise of the bikes around me an electric motor would be very noticeable.



But if they were not in a group when they used it.

I cannot imagine the battery life being long.

With regards to Femke Dreissche. She is saying the bike wasn't hers. You could put my bikes along with a lot of identical bikes and I would quickly know it wasn't mine. By the feel, by little things on the bike.


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## PhilDawson8270 (31 Jan 2016)

steveindenmark said:


> I cannot imagine the battery life being long.



If you're already competitive naturally with the top 5, the battery won't need to last long to give you the tiny edge required to get you to the front.


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## Citius (31 Jan 2016)

steveindenmark said:


> She is saying the bike wasn't hers. You could put my bikes along with a lot of identical bikes and I would quickly know it wasn't mine. By the feel, by little things on the bike.



She is saying the bike belonged to a training partner and was in her pit area at the time.


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## palinurus (31 Jan 2016)

Crackle said:


> The fact that they chose cyclocross is puzzling as you think there'd be more scope for things to go quite badly wrong.



Bike changes are a normal feature, riders get strung out quickly and ride alone or in small groups much of the time, there are some short, but very tough, uphill sections where a little extra power can make a big difference.


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## Dogtrousers (31 Jan 2016)

I posted this elsewhere a while ago, but people may find it interesting. A guy road-testing a concealed, or at least non-obvious, leccy motor up box hill

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/8c89e112-...cles_share/share_link_article_email/editorial

I'm not suggesting the bike in this incident was like that (with a whacking great bidon battery) but it's an example of the kind of thing that's on the market.


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## raleighnut (1 Feb 2016)

PhilDawson8270 said:


> If you're already competitive naturally with the top 5, the battery won't need to last long to give you the tiny edge required to get you to the front.


Snag is then when the battery is flat you've got the 'drag' of the motor, unless you then swap back to an 'undoped' bike of course. Maybe the answer would be if all competitors were limited to 1 bike for the whole competition (even 'tour' riders) yeah sure they could change components (wheels, cranks, mechs ,even handlebars etc) but 1 frame for the entire event, break that and you're out.


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## PhilDawson8270 (1 Feb 2016)

raleighnut said:


> Snag is then when the battery is flat you've got the 'drag' of the motor



It wouldn't be an issue if the motor drive went through a sprag clutch. It would simply free wheel when pedaling without the motor running.

Then it could be saved even better for short boosts every so often.


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## Crackle (1 Feb 2016)

Have you seen this. Motors down the tube are a bit artisan, apparently

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ele...echanical-doping-claims-gazzetta-dello-sport/

This is apparently being used a lot in Grand Fondo's, FFS.


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## deptfordmarmoset (1 Feb 2016)

Citius said:


> She is saying the bike belonged to a training partner and was in her pit area at the time.


I can't remember where I saw it but she's said she sold the bike to a friend, so it was hers originally, and that this friend had gone round the course with her EPO brother earlier and left the bike against the team bus and the mechanics took it and cleaned it and I've had 23 birthdays already this year.

EDIT: oh yes, it was http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/fem...ing-motor-at-cyclo-cross-world-championships/


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## Bobby Mhor (1 Feb 2016)

“A motor hidden in the seat tube is old stuff, almost artisan. It’s been overtaken, it’s a poor man’s doping,” Ghisalberti writes. “The new frontier is far more technologically advanced and ten times as expensive. It’s in the rear wheel: it costs 200,000 Euros, and there’s a waiting list of six months. The first type uses a motor to turn the cranks; the second is electromagnetic.”

Taken from above article, is even more astonishing..
a six month waiting list and folk willing to spend that sort of money...


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## palinurus (1 Feb 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> I posted this elsewhere a while ago, but people may find it interesting. A guy road-testing a concealed, or at least non-obvious, leccy motor up box hill
> 
> http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/8c89e112-...cles_share/share_link_article_email/editorial
> 
> I'm not suggesting the bike in this incident was like that (with a whacking great bidon battery) but it's an example of the kind of thing that's on the market.



Something like a Vivax-assist motor with a smaller battery pack could fit entirely within the seat tube.


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## winjim (1 Feb 2016)

Bobby Mhor said:


> “A motor hidden in the seat tube is old stuff, almost artisan. It’s been overtaken, it’s a poor man’s doping,” Ghisalberti writes. “The new frontier is far more technologically advanced and ten times as expensive. It’s in the rear wheel: it costs 200,000 Euros, and there’s a waiting list of six months. The first type uses a motor to turn the cranks; the second is electromagnetic.”
> 
> Taken from above article, is even more astonishing..
> a six month waiting list and folk willing to spend that sort of money...


I suspect a bit of bluff and bluster going on here.


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## Dogtrousers (1 Feb 2016)

winjim said:


> I suspect a bit of bluff and bluster going on here.


Indeed. "_The first type uses a motor to turn the cranks; the second is electromagnetic_" Ah yes, "electromagnetic". Very sciency, and entirely different from how a motor works.


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## Crackle (1 Feb 2016)

I think a larger pinch of salt is required. However, the point about power on the biological passport remains valid.


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## GrumpyGregry (1 Feb 2016)

My brother is a doper and my Dad says I'm innocent?


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## Flying_Monkey (1 Feb 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> Indeed. "_The first type uses a motor to turn the cranks; the second is electromagnetic_" Ah yes, "electromagnetic". Very sciency, and entirely different from how a motor works.



However, one shouldn't just dismiss the underlying story because of poor journalism or writing. Remember, most people here dismissed mechanical doping full stop when it was first suggested and now we have proof.


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## Dave Davenport (1 Feb 2016)

If a motor was ever found in the pro peloton it would surely be the end for the team.


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## Flying_Monkey (1 Feb 2016)

User said:


> It certainly should be.



There wouldn't really be much of an excuse, given the close attention paid to the building and set-up of bikes by team mechanics. Other than that, I guess we will have to start being as suspicious of riders who have their own non-team provided mechanic as we learned to be of those who had their own non-team provided doctor.


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## winjim (1 Feb 2016)

Flying_Monkey said:


> However, one shouldn't just dismiss the underlying story because of poor journalism or writing. Remember, most people here dismissed mechanical doping full stop when it was first suggested and now we have proof.


I wonder what happens when you have a mechanical and your €200k wheel is swapped out by neutral service?


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## winjim (1 Feb 2016)

Wilier none too pleased at their bike being all over the news in this context.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/bike-...rld-championships-cyclocross-2016-1?r=US&IR=T


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## Flying_Monkey (1 Feb 2016)

winjim said:


> I wonder what happens when you have a mechanical and your €200k wheel is swapped out by neutral service?



Perhaps you do what the rider did in this case, and walk off the course with your bike... it turns out that Van Den Driessche is already seens as suspicious following her performance a few weeks back in the Koppenberg cross. You can read about it from the link below, but scroll down to look at the splits - nothing too remarkable on the downhill and flat, but the final one is her time up the steepest part of the course on the first lap - 10 seconds better than anyone else, including the best of the best. I think it's clear she's used this bike before whether or not she was using it this time...

https://cyclocrossrider.com/racing/worlds-motor-investigation


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## Pro Tour Punditry (1 Feb 2016)

I wonder if she has managed to find a "friend" to admit to being the person responsible yet?


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## User169 (1 Feb 2016)

Marmion said:


> I wonder if she has managed to find a "friend" to admit to being the person responsible yet?



Her excuse does at least have the plus side of being checkable. Likely a bit of a downside for her, although I'm imagining her father is some sort of comedy disguise.


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## winjim (1 Feb 2016)

Marmion said:


> I wonder if she has managed to find a "friend" to admit to being the person responsible yet?


I'll take the rap, if I get to keep the bike.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (1 Feb 2016)

Marmion said:


> I wonder if she has managed to find a "friend" to admit to being the person responsible yet?





DP said:


> Her excuse does at least have the plus side of being checkable. Likely a bit of a downside for her, although I'm imagining her father is some sort of comedy disguise.



The friend has been found, Nico Van Muylder






He no speaky.


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## User169 (1 Feb 2016)

Marmion said:


> The friend has been found, Nico Van Muylder
> 
> 
> 
> ...



"The only thing I can say is that it's my bike"

http://sporza.be/cm/sporza/videozone/sporten/2.25755/1.2562035

He owns a chip shop!


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## fossyant (1 Feb 2016)

Yeh yeh, and she didn't spot the seat post/stem/bar width will most likely have been different lengths. He looks the same size as a 19 year old girl - I think not.


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## Citius (1 Feb 2016)

DP said:


> He owns a chip shop!



He's obviously guilty then...


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## Crackle (1 Feb 2016)

DP said:


> He owns a chip shop!


Closed and the dog ain't sayin' nowt. Like his owner.


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## Citius (1 Feb 2016)

fossyant said:


> Yeh yeh, and she didn't spot the seat post/stem/bar width will most likely have been different lengths. He looks the same size as a 19 year old girl - I think not.



Not that I'm defending her, but it doesn't sound like you have understood the circumstances in which the bike was found..


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## deptfordmarmoset (1 Feb 2016)

DP said:


> He owns a chip shop!


I think we already know who supplies the waffles


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## fossyant (1 Feb 2016)

Citius said:


> Not that I'm defending her, but it doesn't sound like you have understood the circumstances in which the bike was found..



I have and it was a spare, but no smoke without fire.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (1 Feb 2016)

DP said:


> He owns a chip shop!



Fiets and Frites


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## Citius (1 Feb 2016)

fossyant said:


> I have and it was a spare, but no smoke without fire.



I think it's pretty clear that they found a bike with a motor - but as far as I can tell, the only thing linking it to her was that it was found in her pit, or her truck - not sure which.


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## Smokin Joe (1 Feb 2016)

Like the chemical dopers, the golden rule is deny, deny, deny and find any excuse you can, no matter how ridiculous it is.

She was cheating.


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## Citius (1 Feb 2016)

Smokin Joe said:


> She was cheating.



Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. She wasn't cheating as such, because the bike hadn't been ridden. The UCI has the bike and a circumstancial link to a rider. They now have to prove the rest.


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## Smokin Joe (1 Feb 2016)

Citius said:


> Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. She wasn't cheating as such, because the bike hadn't been ridden. The UCI has the bike and a circumstancial link to a rider. They now have to prove the rest.


It was her bike - or at least it was hers to ride when she needed it. If someone is caught doping before a race them saying they had done nothing wrong because they hadn't actually ridden yet wouldn't cut any ice.


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## Citius (1 Feb 2016)

Smokin Joe said:


> It was her bike - or at least it was hers to ride when she needed it



She says it wasn't her bike, and that one of her pit crew loaded it into her van in error, after it was left leaning against it by the owner (the chip shop guy). So like I said, let's not get ahead of ourselves.


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## deptfordmarmoset (1 Feb 2016)

Citius said:


> She says it wasn't her bike, and that one of her pit crew loaded it into her van in error, after it was left leaning against it by the owner (the chip shop guy). So like I said, let's not get ahead of ourselves.


Except it had been her bike which she allegedly sold to her friend who rode around the course before the race with her EPO powered brother and accidentally left it by the team truck for the team mechanics to pick it up, an identical bike to FvD's, and clean it for her. So, it was/''had been'' her bike with a long story and a few extra bits of metalwork attached.


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## Citius (1 Feb 2016)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> Except it had been her bike which she allegedly sold to her friend who rode around the course before the race with her EPO powered brother and accidentally left it by the team truck for the team mechanics to pick it up, an identical bike to FvD's, and clean it for her. So, it was/''had been'' her bike with a long story and a few extra bits of metalwork attached.



Yes, but the whole thing will revolve around whether it was/was not her bike and whether there was any intention to use it. There's clearly no doubt that the bike had a motor fitted. The issues are whether the bike actually belonged to her or not, and whether there was any intention to use it during the event if it did belong to her. Loading it into a truck before the race suggests different, in my view, although the story is by no means clear at the moment. All her race bikes (not sure how many she had, maybe two or even three) would have been in the pit area, prepped and ready to go.


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## andrew_s (1 Feb 2016)

It would seem that these doped up bikes are off the shelf items:-
https://www.salden.nl/en/bikes-and-...na-e-cycl-ocrosser-met-trapondersteuning.html
(there are a bunch of others too, but mostly road bikes)


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## winjim (1 Feb 2016)

Citius said:


> Yes, but the whole thing will revolve around whether it was/was not her bike and whether there was any intention to use it. There's clearly no doubt that the bike had a motor fitted. The issues are whether the bike actually belonged to her or not, and whether there was any intention to use it during the event if it did belong to her. Loading it into a truck before the race suggests different, in my view, although the story is by no means clear at the moment. All her race bikes (not sure how many she had, maybe two or even three) would have been in the pit area, prepped and ready to go.


But the bike only needs to have been present "on the margins" of the competition for fraud to have taken place. So the intention to ride it is irrelevant. That bike should have been nowhere near a world championship event and if she even knew it was there then she is at fault.


----------



## Crackle (1 Feb 2016)

Under the rule, the team is responsible, "all teams must ensure their bicycles are compliant". The fact it was in the pit area places the onus on them to prove it wasn't their bike but there is definitely nothing that has come out to prove it was used.


----------



## Citius (1 Feb 2016)

winjim said:


> But the bike only needs to have been present "on the margins" of the competition for fraud to have taken place. So the intention to ride it is irrelevant. That bike should have been nowhere near a world championship event and if she even knew it was there then she is at fault.



Agreed - but a defence like that is likely to mitigate against a longer sentence. Some sort of ban is probably inevitable...


----------



## winjim (1 Feb 2016)

Citius said:


> Agreed - but a defence like that is likely to mitigate against a longer sentence. Some sort of ban is probably inevitable...


It's certainly going to be a damage limitation exercise.


----------



## SWSteve (1 Feb 2016)

Flying_Monkey said:


> There wouldn't really be much of an excuse, given the close attention paid to the building and set-up of bikes by team mechanics. Other than that, I guess we will have to start being as suspicious of riders who have their own non-team provided mechanic as we learned to be of those who had their own non-team provided doctor.





Flying_Monkey said:


> There wouldn't really be much of an excuse, given the close attention paid to the building and set-up of bikes by team mechanics. Other than that, I guess we will have to start being as suspicious of riders who have their own non-team provided mechanic as we learned to be of those who had their own non-team provided doctor.



Would the team be able to use the 'he wasn't our mechanic, that wasn't our bike' as the defence against a 6 month straight ban


----------



## aj101 (1 Feb 2016)

it's an interesting defence, given that they bikes are available off the shelf, and if its the 'friend' I think it is, he's an ex cyclist who had to cut back due to injury, so an electric bike makes sense in this scenario. however, to lend it to a rider in the world champs seems crazy, as surely someone in the loop would know it's abilities.
What is interesting though upon further reading is that once again it's someone at the bottom of the pile that gets busted rather than someone at the top. Like when no name riders were getting busted as offerings for EPO while it took law enforcement to take down the big players.

So surely the question is really, when did 19 year old girls become the innovators at technical doping?


----------



## deptfordmarmoset (1 Feb 2016)

Citius said:


> Yes, but the whole thing will revolve around whether it was/was not her bike and whether there was any intention to use it. There's clearly no doubt that the bike had a motor fitted. The issues are whether the bike actually belonged to her or not, and whether there was any intention to use it during the event if it did belong to her. Loading it into a truck before the race suggests different, in my view, although the story is by no means clear at the moment. All her race bikes (not sure how many she had, maybe two or even three) would have been in the pit area, prepped and ready to go.


As I understand it, the bike was left by, or against, the truck. Dirty after the course reconnaissance, the mechs will have cleaned it pre-race, either whether it was hers or her friend's. Official paperwork and possibly her expenses claim on tax will show it was her bike. Even if there was a paper trail showing that she'd sold the bike, all that would show was that it was planned well in advance. Any lawyer would laugh out of court her story of unofficial sale to a friend, that friend riding the bike around the course with her brother, somehow forgetting to take it with him and accidentally leaving it in a place where, dirty and the same frame as FvD's, could be confused by mechanics with her real bikes.


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## andrew_s (1 Feb 2016)

Do you suppose the UCI were clever enough to take DNA swabs & fingerprints off the battery, charging sockets etc before they got their own all over?
If they were, most of these questions will be answered once the tests come through.


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## Citius (1 Feb 2016)

aj101 said:


> What is interesting though upon further reading is that once again it's someone at the bottom of the pile that gets busted rather than someone at the top



European U23 champion and one of the pre-race favourites for the world title is hardly _'bottom of the pile'_ ffs....


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## winjim (1 Feb 2016)

andrew_s said:


> Do you suppose the UCI were clever enough to take DNA swabs & fingerprints off the battery, charging sockets etc before they got their own all over?
> If they were, most of these questions will be answered once the tests come through.


They're not gonna DNA test a bike. This isn't CSI.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (1 Feb 2016)

Apparently, suspicions were first raised during her warm-up


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## 400bhp (1 Feb 2016)

We need Carrie Matheson to work for the UCI. U23 rider should have been her "source".

OK, tongue in cheek, but would they/have they/should they get more sneaky in outing cheats? Get someone in the mix as a plant. U23 rider a perfect recruit. Have her on the books for the rest of her career.


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## Flying_Monkey (2 Feb 2016)

Not saying it has anything to do with this case, but it is possible to buy Willier bikes custom-fitted with Vivax Assist in the Netherlands... 
https://www.salden.nl/en/wilier-triestina-e-cycl-ocrosser-met-trapondersteuning.html


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## Flying_Monkey (2 Feb 2016)

Let's just think about this friend whose bike it is claimed to be. What exactly does he have to lose by saying it's his bike? Not a lot, apart from some temporary media attention. He just has to keep his mouth shut except for confirming his ownership, for which I am sure he will be (or have been) adequately compensated at some point. That might just be worth it to reduce the punishment for the rider. Whoever was involved in this must have been very careful in using a prepared bike in major races, and given that, they are also likely to have also have had such contingency plans organised.


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## Smokin Joe (2 Feb 2016)

If it's used at this level it is almost certainly being used right at the very top too. Luckily it is a very easy thing to detect, unlike doping.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (2 Feb 2016)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Not saying it has anything to do with this case, but it is possible to buy Willier bikes custom-fitted with Vivax Assist in the Netherlands...
> https://www.salden.nl/en/wilier-triestina-e-cycl-ocrosser-met-trapondersteuning.html


It makes Wilier's flouncey response to the matter look quite bizarre - flouncing for using something they sell, rather than flouncing for doing something they would never dream of supporting.


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## Citius (2 Feb 2016)

Wilier is not selling these bikes. The dealer is retrofitting them with the vivax kits.


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## bigtoe (2 Feb 2016)

Yep from the link earlier willier are really really really mad.watt bikes did Fabian use when people acussed him?


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## Pro Tour Punditry (2 Feb 2016)

Citius said:


> Wilier is not selling these bikes. The dealer is retrofitting them with the vivax kits.


Ah right, my mistake.


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## deptfordmarmoset (2 Feb 2016)

bigtoe said:


> Yep from the link earlier willier are really really really mad.watt bikes did Fabian use when people acussed him?


S-Works, I believe. Though being Swiss, it ought to have been BMC - Belgian Motor Cycles.....


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## Pale Rider (2 Feb 2016)

The Vivax/Gruber assist is very stealthy and can be hard to spot.

Although if the battery is in the 'bidon', the bidon looks a bit odd and a cable will run somewhere from it into the frame.

If the battery is in the wedge pack, that also looks a bit strange and there will be a short cable running under the seat.

But what really tells you is the weight, an extra 2kg or more, depending on the size of the battery.

Most riders - and all pro riders - would feel that as soon as they handled the bike.


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## jowwy (2 Feb 2016)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> S-Works, I believe. Though being Swiss, it ought to have been BMC - Belgian Motor Cycles.....


im sure he was riding a trek - as he was with trek factory racing


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## User169 (2 Feb 2016)

jowwy said:


> im sure he was riding a trek - as he was with trek factory racing



2010 he was still at what was then called Saxobank (one of the CSC incarnations), riding Specialized.


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## jowwy (2 Feb 2016)

DP said:


> 2010 he was still at what was then called Saxobank (one of the CSC incarnations), riding Specialized.


Are we talking the same year.........wasnt it 2014 when he looked like he was flicking a switch on his bars to ride away from the group


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## User169 (2 Feb 2016)

jowwy said:


> Are we talking the same year.........wasnt it 2014 when he looked like he was flicking a switch on his bars to ride away from the group



I thought it was 2010 P-R and RvV. In the latter, he accelerated away from Boonen on the Muur whilst still seated.


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## jowwy (2 Feb 2016)

DP said:


> I thought it was 2010 P-R and RvV. In the latter, he accelerated away from Boonen on the Muur whilst still seated.


Im not sure to be honest......i can remember watching it and i didnt think it was 6yrs ago


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## deptfordmarmoset (2 Feb 2016)

I thought it was 2010 too, just before he moved to Leopard Trek, which would then have put him on a Trek bike.


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## andrew_s (2 Feb 2016)

Definitely 2010.
In P-R, attacked when Boonen was eating at the back of the group, then dropped Leukemans off his back wheel.
In Flanders, rode away from Boonen on the Muur, seated.


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## Smokin Joe (2 Feb 2016)

It was 2010 -


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEFqL0mbazw


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## jowwy (2 Feb 2016)

Time doesnt half fly these days.......would never have thought it was 6yrs ago


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## Smokin Joe (2 Feb 2016)

jowwy said:


> Time doesnt half fly these days.......would never have thought it was 6yrs ago


You and me both. Till I checked I thought it was last year


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## Paulus (2 Feb 2016)

> So surely the question is really, when did 19 year old girls become the innovators at technical doping?



Is it possible for the UCI to find out which company is supplying the motors and the axles needed to work this system?


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## jarlrmai (2 Feb 2016)

It should be sent for forensics, DNA and fingerprints, then sent to electronics experts to be dismantled to check for serial numbers etc.


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## Pale Rider (2 Feb 2016)

Paulus said:


> Is it possible for the UCI to find out which company is supplying the motors and the axles needed to work this system?



Yes, by googling 'Gruber' or 'Vivax assist'.


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## Citius (2 Feb 2016)

Paulus said:


> Is it possible for the UCI to find out which company is supplying the motors and the axles needed to work this system?



What for? It's not illegal to fit a bike with a motor. The kits are widely available. You just aren't allowed to compete with it.


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## jarlrmai (2 Feb 2016)

If you knowingly fit a motor to a bike to be used in pro competition that is likely a crime.


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## jowwy (2 Feb 2016)

Smokin Joe said:


> You and me both. Till I checked I thought it was last year


Thats why i thought he was at trek when it happened.......shocking really


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## Citius (2 Feb 2016)

jarlrmai said:


> If you knowingly fit a motor to a bike to be used in pro competition that is likely a crime.



I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise.


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## Pale Rider (2 Feb 2016)

jarlrmai said:


> If you knowingly fit a motor to a bike to be used in pro competition that is likely a crime.



Against the rules - cheating - is a more accurate description and puts this storm in the correct sized tea cup.


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## winjim (2 Feb 2016)

jarlrmai said:


> It should be sent for forensics, DNA and fingerprints, then sent to electronics experts to be dismantled to check for serial numbers etc.


Why?


jarlrmai said:


> If you knowingly fit a motor to a bike to be used in pro competition that is likely a crime.


I hope not.


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## User169 (2 Feb 2016)

Citius said:


> I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise.



I suspect some would argue that cheating in sports should not be subject to criminal sanction. I don't suppose van den Driessche is ever going to end up before a criminal tribunal. She wouldn't as uk law currently stands.


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## Citius (2 Feb 2016)

DP said:


> I suspect some would argue that cheating in sports should not be subject to criminal sanction. I don't suppose van den Driessche is ever going to end up before a criminal tribunal. She wouldn't as uk law currently stands.



'crime' in the UCI sense, obviously...


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## jarlrmai (2 Feb 2016)

So is it not some of form fraud to partake in a competition with a monetary prize and cheat?

(It's quite depressing how we end up in legal discussions so often on this forum)


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## User169 (2 Feb 2016)

Oh this just gets better - her dad and brother are parrot rustlers (allegedly).

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/van-den-driessches-friend-claims-ownership-of-motorised-bike/


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## winjim (2 Feb 2016)

DP said:


> Oh this just gets better - her dad and brother are parrot rustlers (allegedly).
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/van-den-driessches-friend-claims-ownership-of-motorised-bike/


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## Flying_Monkey (2 Feb 2016)

Charming family.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (2 Feb 2016)

How long before we get the "let them use motors" posts?


----------



## Seevio (2 Feb 2016)

When I hear the phrase "parrot rustlers", which I admit is not an everyday occurrence, my mind conjures up images of stetsons, six shooters and lots of squawking...


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## DRM (3 Feb 2016)

you could'nt write stuff like this, if it wasn't so serious it would make a cracking sit com, what a family!  it's Belgiums version of the dead parrot sketch


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## Crackle (3 Feb 2016)

@Marmion was bang on earlier. We need Tintin on the case.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (3 Feb 2016)

Crackle said:


> @Marmion was bang on earlier. We need Tintin on the case.


----------



## Bobby Mhor (3 Feb 2016)

I want to know how they hide the parrots in the frame...


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## Dogtrousers (3 Feb 2016)

DP said:


> Oh this just gets better - her dad and brother are parrot rustlers (allegedly).
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/van-den-driessches-friend-claims-ownership-of-motorised-bike/


And I thought the EPO-taking jazz guitarist turned amateur cyclist was a bit weird. I await future developments eagerly.


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## jarlrmai (3 Feb 2016)

I hope the UCI get an IOS app to sort out this parrot thing before we see it at a Grand Tour.


----------



## jarlrmai (3 Feb 2016)

Also is Chris Froome on the millet?


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## cisamcgu (3 Feb 2016)

Is mechanical doping worse than drug-based doping ? In my rather naive way of thinking I believe it is. With a drug you still at leat have to use your muscles, your stamina, your brain; even if enhanced to a greater or lesser extent by whatever you have taken. But with mechanical "doping" you could be as fat and unfit, as old and weak as .. well me for instance .. and still compete and beat top class riders.

It is insidious and needs to be stopped ..


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## ColinJ (3 Feb 2016)

cisamcgu said:


> With a drug you still at leat have to use your muscles, your stamina, your brain; even if enhanced to a greater or lesser extent by whatever you have taken. But with mechanical "doping" you could be as fat and unfit, as old and weak as .. well me for instance .. and still compete and beat top class riders.


Not with the current technology, you wouldn't!

Mechanical doping cheats generating 400 W and using (say) 100 W of 'assistance would beat top class riders with a natural 450 W output, but your pitiful 150 W (say) would only be boosted to 250 W so you would still be trailing in their dust! 

Seriously though ... It is pretty sad that people would consider cheating like this in pro sport. Even putting aside the ethics of it, it would be so easy to catch them at it!


----------



## cisamcgu (3 Feb 2016)

Ahemmm.. you have no idea how much raw, unadulterated power I put out - it might be 800W for all you know  (Even if in reality, 150W would be a huge exageration !)


----------



## Crackle (3 Feb 2016)

Nikki Harris's (UK cyclocross champion) Fiancee, Mark Brammeier gives us a more involved perspective

http://cyclingtips.com/2016/02/bram...ething-seemed-a-bit-weird-at-koppenbergcross/


----------



## deptfordmarmoset (3 Feb 2016)

Crackle said:


> Nikki Harris's (UK cyclocross champion) Fiancee, Mark Brammeier gives us a more involved perspective
> 
> http://cyclingtips.com/2016/02/bram...ething-seemed-a-bit-weird-at-koppenbergcross/


While there's a strong reason for suspecting her at Koppenbergcross, the only way she could get done for it is if someone whistleblows. It would be interesting to know whether Muylder was around that day. I think, though, that we can only hope that the UCI can make a ban stick.


----------



## cyberknight (3 Feb 2016)

Has this been mentioned yet ?, cycling weekly has an article about electromagnets in deep section wheels.Im geussing it would run on an elctromagnetic field drawing the wheel around so no obvious motor sound and wight penalty .
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news...-the-leading-form-of-mechanical-doping-209760


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## Dogtrousers (3 Feb 2016)

cyberknight said:


> Has this been mentioned yet ?, cycling weekly has an article about electromagnets in deep section wheels.Im geussing it would run on an elctromagnetic field drawing the wheel around so no obvious motor sound and wight penalty .


Yes.

It looks a bit like a perpetual motion machine to me, but I'd have to see it in English, with a bit more info. To make a motor work (and that's what it is) you'll end up with weight in the form of either heavy magnets or heavy batteries or both.

Edit. I see cycling weekly share my scepticism: _"There is not attempt to explain the location of the magnets either, just that wire is in the wheel rim. If GCSE physics taught us anything, it is that electromagnetic induction requires magnets (the clue is in the name).

Perhaps this system requires an accomplice (Wile E Cayote) to sit at the top of Alpe D’Huez with a huge horseshoe shaped magnet pulling you up from the bottom."
_
btw the spelling in the above is CW's, not mine.


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## deptfordmarmoset (3 Feb 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> Yes.
> 
> It looks a bit like a perpetual motion machine to me, but I'd have to see it in English, with a bit more info. To make a motor work (and that's what it is) you'll end up with weight in the form of either heavy magnets or heavy batteries or both.


And I'd guess the technology used to detect Driesshe's motor would also detect that one too.


----------



## Dogtrousers (3 Feb 2016)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> And I'd guess the technology used to detect Driesshe's motor would also detect that one too.


No way. If I'm paying E200,000 for a perpetual motion machine, I want a invisible perpetual motion machine.


----------



## Flying_Monkey (3 Feb 2016)

Crackle said:


> Nikki Harris's (UK cyclocross champion) Fiancee, Mark Brammeier gives us a more involved perspective
> 
> http://cyclingtips.com/2016/02/bram...ething-seemed-a-bit-weird-at-koppenbergcross/



That video is very reminiscent of the Cancellara vs. Boonen video. The difference is that Van den Driessche was nowhere near being one of the world's most powerful riders before that race. It's ridiculous seeing how she smoothly accelerates away from far more powerful riders who are clearly struggling.


----------



## ColinJ (3 Feb 2016)

cisamcgu said:


> Ahemmm.. you have no idea how much raw, unadulterated power I put out - it might be 800W for all you know  (Even if in reality, 150W would be a huge exageration !)


My guesstimate was based on "_you could be as fat and unfit, as old and weak as .. well me for instance_" which I reckoned was a strong hint!


----------



## ColinJ (3 Feb 2016)

I thought Greg Lemond's suggestion of using a thermal imaging camera to look at the bikes was an interesting one (LINK). If a motor is outputting 100 W or so, a lot of heat is going to be produced.

His statements last year annoyed a lot of people (e.g. HERE), but perhaps they would like to reconsider now?


----------



## Milkfloat (3 Feb 2016)

ColinJ said:


> I thought Greg Lemond's suggestion of using a thermal imaging camera to look at the bikes was an interesting one (LINK). If a motor is outputting 100 W or so, a lot of heat is going to be produced.
> 
> His statements last year annoyed a lot of people (e.g. HERE), but perhaps they would like to reconsider now?



That would only work whilst the motor is on or for a short time afterwards. I thought have thought a simple tap on the tube, a magnet or looking down the seat post would do it. Even better remove the minimum weight limit and see if anyone wants the weight penalty of a motor and battery.


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## ColinJ (3 Feb 2016)

Milkfloat said:


> That would only work whilst the motor is on or for a short time afterwards. I thought have thought a simple tap on the tube, a magnet or looking down the seat post would do it. Even better remove the minimum weight limit and see if anyone wants the weight penalty of a motor and battery.


I think the idea was that officials could easily examine all bikes while they were being ridden using cameras at the roadside and/or mounted on official motorbikes. It could make 'mechanical doping' almost impossible to get away with.


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## deptfordmarmoset (3 Feb 2016)

ColinJ said:


> I think the idea was that officials could easily examine all bikes while they were being ridden using cameras at the roadside and/or mounted on official motorbikes. It could make 'mechanical doping' almost impossible to get away with.


That's how I thought it could work. Excessive heat from BB or wheels, straight for investigation after the race/stage/bike change.


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## winjim (3 Feb 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> Yes.
> 
> It looks a bit like a perpetual motion machine to me, but I'd have to see it in English, with a bit more info. To make a motor work (and that's what it is) you'll end up with weight in the form of either heavy magnets or heavy batteries or both.
> 
> ...


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## Milkfloat (4 Feb 2016)

ColinJ said:


> I think the idea was that officials could easily examine all bikes while they were being ridden using cameras at the roadside and/or mounted on official motorbikes. It could make 'mechanical doping' almost impossible to get away with.



But I am not sure it is possible to check all the bikes all the time, it seems these devices are used for just a couple of minutes a couple of times in a race at maximum. I am fairly sure a rider would spot someone coming close to them with a thermal imaging gun and just not trigger it then.


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## deptfordmarmoset (4 Feb 2016)

Ooh look, thermal imaging iPhones!





(Hot wheels)


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## 400bhp (4 Feb 2016)

What about some kind of blocker material on the seat tube - say a cross section of a particular mix that could be scanned easily by a detector. If removed or tampered with it would be detected?

Easier to police mechanical doping at the top level than at the lower level in my view.

I bet there's a few saddo's in the amateur scene been doing this for a while.


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## winjim (4 Feb 2016)

400bhp said:


> I bet there's a few saddo's in the amateur scene been doing this for a while.


I think if I had a spare five grand I might be tempted to do it, just to cruise past the sportive MAMILs and set some ridiculous Strava times for a laugh. Not in an actual competition though.


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## aj101 (6 Feb 2016)

Citius said:


> European U23 champion and one of the pre-race favourites for the world title is hardly _'bottom of the pile'_ ffs....


It is. in terms of budget and prize money, its very different to say a Katusha GC contender getting caught in a mountain stage. Also, there was some talk as to the women's races being run before the mens, and it being a dry run before a similar bike used later mens event. Conjecture yes but it highlights the possibilities.

Always think back to USPS/Discovery/Radioshack team getting a positive a few years back. Who was it? Lance, the biggest doper of them all? No way, they picked Li Fuyu.


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## Citius (6 Feb 2016)

aj101 said:


> It is. in terms of budget and prize money, its very different to say a Katusha GC contender getting caught in a mountain stage. Also, there was some talk as to the women's races being run before the mens, and it being a dry run before a similar bike used later mens event. Conjecture yes but it highlights the possibilities.
> 
> Always think back to USPS/Discovery/Radioshack team getting a positive a few years back. Who was it? Lance, the biggest doper of them all? No way, they picked Li Fuyu.



Sorry, but that's absurd. Calling the European champ and pre-race fave 'bottom of the pile' is just idiotic. You're confusing cyclocross with road racing. Not sure what any of that other stuff has to do with it.


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## User33236 (14 Mar 2016)

Seems like Van den Driessche had thrown in the towel.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/van-den-driessche-stops-defence-against-mechanical-doping-charge/


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## Flying_Monkey (14 Mar 2016)

No admission or apology, however. She seems to be claiming that she could not defend herself rather than saying she acknowledges her guilt.


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## User33236 (14 Mar 2016)

I see it as a jump before you get pushed step so not surprising she hasn't acknowledged guilt.


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## SWSteve (14 Mar 2016)

Her point that the legal costs were racking up, and that there was no realistic chance of an acquittal seem logical.


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## Pale Rider (15 Mar 2016)

Rules is rules, but it's a shame to see the promising career of a 19-year-old rider destroyed for one transgression.


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## User169 (15 Mar 2016)

Pale Rider said:


> Rules is rules, but it's a shame to see the promising career of a 19-year-old rider destroyed for one transgression.



Maybe it's to save the careers of others. Wouldn't surprise me if she's been leaned on.


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## Pale Rider (15 Mar 2016)

User said:


> One?



Of course, it's open season on her now.

But saying she may have cheated more than once and not been caught on those occasions is the same as saying other riders have cheated and not been caught.

Pure speculation.


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## Pale Rider (15 Mar 2016)

User said:


> The fact that the towel is in, coupled with those suspicions about her earlier performance, makes the case a bit more compelling than speculating that she was unlucky enough to be caught first time.



Scrutineering must have been very lax for her to have used the bike on multiple occasions.

Anyone with a modicum of cycling experience, let alone training for the job, could tell in seconds the bike wasn't right.

The simplest test would be to try to turn the wheel backwards, there will be noticeable resistance.

As you may know, I use an ebike most of the time and they all make a noise, particularly under load.

So even if every scrutineer was worse than incompetent, anyone stood the other side of the tape as she climbed a grassy bank would hear the whirr of the motor, as would any other riders within a few metres.

The noise might not be so apparent in the general clatter of a roadie peloton, but I honestly cannot believe it would go unnoticed in a cyclocross race.


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## Crackle (15 Mar 2016)

Pale Rider said:


> The noise might not be so apparent in the general clatter of a roadie peloton, but I honestly cannot believe it would go unnoticed in a cyclocross race


That might explain why her and dad and brother needed the parrot from the pet shop, to fly next to her going 'Pretty Polly', CAW..... and drown out the noise of the motor.


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## Dave Davenport (15 Mar 2016)

Pale Rider said:


> The simplest test would be to try to turn the wheel backwards, there will be noticeable resistance.



Just a small technical point, but there's nothing different about the wheel, the motor drives a bevel through the bottom bracket.


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## Pale Rider (15 Mar 2016)

Dave Davenport said:


> Just a small technical point, but there's nothing different about the wheel, the motor drives a bevel through the bottom bracket.



I didn't explain that too well

On a crank drive ebike, pushing the bike backward causes the chain to move under tension, which turns the motor over causing drag.

Leaving that aside, as far as I can gather the bevel drive in the girl's bike is permanently engaged, so turning the pedals at rest would also produce drag.

Turning the pedals backwards exaggerates the drag because the reduction ratio of the bevel drive is working in reverse.

You are also turning the motor, which is more drag due to the 'notching' effect of the magnets.

As I child, I recall even the tiny motors in my Scalextric cars produced drag when spun unpowered.


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## PhilDawson8270 (15 Mar 2016)

Pale Rider said:


> I didn't explain that too well
> 
> On a crank drive ebike, pushing the bike backward causes the chain to move under tension, which turns the motor over causing drag.
> 
> ...



It also wouldn't be difficult to have the drive on a clutch so that it will pedal backwards like normal.


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## screenman (15 Mar 2016)

Pale Rider said:


> Scrutineering must have been very lax for her to have used the bike on multiple occasions.
> 
> Anyone with a modicum of cycling experience, let alone training for the job, could tell in seconds the bike wasn't right.
> 
> ...



The amount of noise my lungs made in a cross race it would have covered the noise of a V8 without an exhaust on.


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## Smokin Joe (15 Mar 2016)

Pale Rider said:


> Rules is rules, but it's a shame to see the promising career of a 19-year-old rider destroyed for one transgression.


There are transgressions and there are transgressions. Using a concealed electric motor in competition is about as high up the scale as it gets. At 19 she is an adult and would be regarded as such in law.


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## 400bhp (15 Mar 2016)

Ooohh Smokin Jo responding to Pale Rider.

Doppleganger infinity mirror.


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## deptfordmarmoset (15 Mar 2016)

Pale Rider said:


> Scrutineering must have been very lax for her to have used the bike on multiple occasions.
> 
> Anyone with a modicum of cycling experience, let alone training for the job, could tell in seconds the bike wasn't right.
> 
> ...


I imagine that the identical bike ploy (''It's not my bike. I sold it to a friend.'') was an attempt to sidestep the scrutineers. No idea how often it could have worked before a mechanic happens by, spots the bike by the truck and takes it back within their range of inspection. I would have thought that a mechanic would have been surprised by the extra weight though. I mean, CX bikes will have heavier wheels and tyres anyway so they're not the lightest of steeds but there would still be a noticeable increase in weight, wouldn't there? 

The ex-racer who claimed ownership of the bike has not exactly raised the integrity profile of the previous generation's racers.


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## EasyPeez (16 Mar 2016)

winjim said:


> Wilier none too pleased at their bike being all over the news in this context.
> 
> http://uk.businessinsider.com/bike-...rld-championships-cyclocross-2016-1?r=US&IR=T



I admit I'm a bit of a sucker when it comes to conspiracy theories, but that video of Hesjedal's bike at the bottom of the article looks pretty clear cut?!
Though I don't get why he'd be using the motor going into a corner on a descent...


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## Pale Rider (16 Mar 2016)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> Iwould have been surprised by the extra weight though. I mean, CX bikes will have heavier wheels and tyres anyway so they're not the lightest of steeds but there would still be a noticeable increase in weight, wouldn't there?



I believe this was a standard bike converted, so would have weighed more.

However, it is possible to use an illegally light - and probably dangerously fragile - bike, convert that, making the total weight feel about right.

Another way to tell if a Vivax system is fitted is the motor locking pin through the seat tube - it needs one of those or the motor assembly would spin around rather than the cranks.

The pin is difficult to hide from a close inspection because to work it must protrude a tiny bit past the thin walled tube.


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## raleighnut (16 Mar 2016)

Pale Rider said:


> I believe this was a standard bike converted, so would have weighed more.
> 
> However, it is possible to use an illegally light - and probably dangerously fragile - bike, convert that, making the total weight feel about right.
> 
> ...


You mean like a bottle cage boss, hollow pin (that accepts a bottle cage bolt)


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## jarlrmai (16 Mar 2016)

EasyPeez said:


> I admit I'm a bit of a sucker when it comes to conspiracy theories, but that video of Hesjedal's bike at the bottom of the article looks pretty clear cut?!
> Though I don't get why he'd be using the motor going into a corner on a descent...



That's normal the weight and momentum of the bike settling causes the pedals to move which moves the rear wheel.

That clip is the least convincing clip in my opinion.


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## EasyPeez (16 Mar 2016)

jarlrmai said:


> the weight and momentum of the bike settling causes the pedals to move which moves the rear wheel



I'm not sure I understand you correctly - are you saying it's residual pedal movement (independent of any crank movement) that is causing the back wheel to spin? i.e the pedals spinning on the ends of the cranks, whilst the cranks remain more or less stationary?


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## jarlrmai (16 Mar 2016)

He's probably doing quite a good speed before he comes off, look at the handle bars they are at 90deg that back wheel and crank system has a lot of momentum and the light carbon fibre bike is resting on the rear wheel the front wheel and a small point on the handlebars there's nothing stopping the rear wheel from going around and dragging the bike around with it.

ala this video


View: https://youtu.be/aN7HjwZI-k0?t=31


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## Pale Rider (16 Mar 2016)

jarlrmai said:


> He's probably doing quite a good speed before he comes off, look at the handle bars they are at 90deg that back wheel and crank system has a lot of momentum and the light carbon fibre bike is resting on the rear wheel the front wheel and a small point on the handlebars there's nothing stopping the rear wheel from going around and dragging the bike around with it.
> 
> ala this video
> 
> ...




Er, isn't the video meant to show that an ordinary pushbike can spin threequarters of a turn if it falls over at speed?


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## jarlrmai (16 Mar 2016)

I'm not sure what you mean, that video shows that the momentum of the rear wheel is easily enough to drag the bike around in a circle.


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## Pale Rider (16 Mar 2016)

jarlrmai said:


> I'm not sure what you mean, that video shows that the momentum of the rear wheel is easily enough to drag the bike around in a circle.



Ah, think I misunderstood you.

Maybe best if I leave the second can of Stella in the fridge for tomorrow.


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## jarlrmai (16 Mar 2016)

I'm about to hit the whisky so better close down the forums.


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## raleighnut (16 Mar 2016)

jarlrmai said:


> I'm about to hit the whisky so better close down the forums.


Maybe you could announce that on NOMI.


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## EasyPeez (17 Mar 2016)

jarlrmai said:


> He's probably doing quite a good speed before he comes off, look at the handle bars they are at 90deg that back wheel and crank system has a lot of momentum and the light carbon fibre bike is resting on the rear wheel the front wheel and a small point on the handlebars there's nothing stopping the rear wheel from going around and dragging the bike around with it.
> 
> ala this video
> 
> ...




I think my disbelief was possibly in part based on my complete inexperience of carbon fibre bikes....I'm pretty sure I couldn't get the back wheel to spin my steely like that!
I did think it hard to understand why he'd be using a motor while freewheeling on a quick descent.


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## jarlrmai (18 Apr 2016)

http://fittish.deadspin.com/secret-thermal-camera-footage-allegedly-shows-seven-pro-1771492666

So independent thermal imaging yada yada.

Waste of time, doesn't prove anything, seems another chance to insinuate Froome is a cheat, by iterpersing some footage of him.


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## deptfordmarmoset (18 Apr 2016)

jarlrmai said:


> http://fittish.deadspin.com/secret-thermal-camera-footage-allegedly-shows-seven-pro-1771492666
> 
> So independent thermal imaging yada yada.
> 
> Waste of time, doesn't prove anything, seems another chance to insinuate Froome is a cheat, by iterpersing some footage of him.


@Marmion dug out a link off cyclinghub.tv to the French language Stade 2 broadcast. Worth watching if you understand French. 

http://cyclinghub.tv/post.php?id=1515
http://cyclinghub.tv/post.php?id=1516


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## Foghat (18 Apr 2016)

jarlrmai said:


> So independent thermal imaging yada yada.
> 
> Waste of time, doesn't prove anything



What a ridiculous head-in-the-sand response. Such investigative journalism needs to be commended.

One thing it proves beyond reasonable doubt is that several pro riders in those races had heat sources in their bikes that i) cannot be satisfactorily explained and ii) strongly indicate nefarious activity. Not remotely a waste of time - quite the opposite in fact.

It also adds considerable weight to the view that Cancellara was up to this in the 2010 Flanders and Roubaix events, the footage from which ties in extremely well with the evidence of how the cheating is done in the Stade 2 documentary. I note that Cancellara seems not to have managed to replicate the absurdly powerful-but-incredibly-smooth accelerations in those two events, suggesting that he was indeed rumbled at the time and has since refrained (or perhaps refined the implementation so that the accelerations weren't so comically implausible and the fingerwork was less obvious).

If you're so convinced the heat sources filmed are legitimately present and that all the other circumstantial evidence should be ignored, or that the journalists are fabricating or misinterpreting evidence, how about offering potential explanations for the presence of the heat sources and for the rest of the deeply suspicious evidence, rather than dismissing it as a 'waste of time'? Brian Cookson was obviously gravely concerned by what he saw - it was written all over his face, and his nervous swallowing as he watched, no doubt frantically considering the repercussions this could have.

Or do you really think that the journalists' sour grapes over non-French victories, or over Froome, is the more likely explanation for all this evidence of motors in bikes?

I admit, though, that the inclusion of video of Froome is possibly unjustified given the lack of evidence against him - the only 'evidence' apparently being that he pedals very quickly when attacking uphill (conveniently forgetting he always looks laboured and ungainly when doing it, and never particularly implausible the way Cancellara was in those 2010 attacks, especially in Paris-Roubaix).


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## jarlrmai (18 Apr 2016)

Is there any translation of what the engineer is saying?

Some of the hot spots they seem to be pointing out don't look much hotter than other areas of the bike that might be getting warm from friction, certainly nowhere near the heat in the demo they did (the one just before they added some random stock footage of Froome attacking on some climbs)


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## ColinJ (18 Apr 2016)

jarlrmai said:


> Some of the hot spots they seem to be pointing out don't look much hotter than other areas of the bike that might be getting warm from friction, certainly nowhere near the heat in the demo they did (the one just before they added some random stock footage of Froome attacking on some climbs)


There might some friction causing heat in the rear hub or the bottom bracket (though let's face it - friction in bearings in a pro bike should be tiny) but where would the heat come from going up the seat tube from the BB? That definitely looks _very_ suspicious!


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## oldroadman (18 Apr 2016)

Foghat said:


> What a ridiculous head-in-the-sand response. Such investigative journalism needs to be commended.
> 
> One thing it proves beyond reasonable doubt is that several pro riders in those races had heat sources in their bikes that i) cannot be satisfactorily explained and ii) strongly indicate nefarious activity. Not remotely a waste of time - quite the opposite in fact.
> 
> ...


Good gracious, journalists make up stories to grab headlines? Whatever next! Now, where's my Daily Mail/Express/Sun/whatever, I'd best check everything I read is 100% true and can be backed up with credible corroborated evidence....


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## jarlrmai (18 Apr 2016)

If you look at the colour range on the cameras they are set to show from 8.9 degrees to 25.7, the heat coming off the hub at 8:22 in the YT version of the doc looks of be about 1/4 up from 8.9 so not really that hot over a range of 16 degrees C.

Which part in the video (not the FLIR demo) show's the heat going up the seat tube?


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## Hont (18 Apr 2016)

ColinJ said:


> There might some friction causing heat in the rear hub or the bottom bracket (though let's face it - friction in bearings in a pro bike should be tiny) but where would the heat come from going up the seat tube from the BB? That definitely looks _very_ suspicious!


That was the part that got me wondering. I can't find an innocent explanation for heat in that area - unless you're riding on a freshly welded metal bike or you've spilt some tea from your bidon 

But looking at it again, that image only appears to be from when they were demonstrating the motors. The footage from the races is nothing like as damning. In fact, you could argue that none of the race footage shows the same heat profile, so nobody is using that motor.


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## Hont (18 Apr 2016)

I also notice they're now saying these motors can do 250 watts. That's almost a sprint for me!


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## ColinJ (18 Apr 2016)

jarlrmai said:


> Which part in the video (not the FLIR demo) show's the heat going up the seat tube?


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## Stephen C (18 Apr 2016)

jarlrmai said:


> If you look at the colour range on the cameras they are set to show from 8.9 degrees to 25.7, the heat coming off the hub at 8:22 in the YT version of the doc looks of be about 1/4 up from 8.9 so not really that hot over a range of 16 degrees C.
> 
> Which part in the video (not the FLIR demo) show's the heat going up the seat tube?



It isn't particularly conclusive, assuming the colour range is linear, it puts the wheel rim at about 14.5 degrees C, not exactly hot. Add into it that any motor will not be 100% efficient, I would expect there to be more heat produced from a motor.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying it definitely doesn't happen, it's just the evidence doesn't look that convincing to me.


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## Hont (18 Apr 2016)

ColinJ said:


> View attachment 125294


That's not from a race. That's the demonstration of the motor, you can see the bit straight after where he has both feet off the pedals but they're still turning. That's the giveaway. I don't think even Riccardo Ricco would be that blatant.


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## Foghat (18 Apr 2016)

Stephen C said:


> It isn't particularly conclusive, assuming the colour range is linear, it puts the wheel rim at about 14.5 degrees C, not exactly hot. Add into it that any motor will not be 100% efficient, I would expect there to be more heat produced from a motor.
> 
> Just to be clear, I'm not saying it definitely doesn't happen, it's just the evidence doesn't look that convincing to me.



Remember to compare and contrast with other rear hubs going past at the same time. Starting at 19:00 is a sequence showing some bikes going past with rear hubs at very clear low temperature barely above background, then one goes by several degrees warmer than those. Admittedly, the heatmeter scale depicted on screen takes a jump as the car goes past, presumably reacting to the high heat output of the engine etc, but, crucially, the rider in front of the suspect bike shows a consistent low rear hub temperature both before and after the car goes past, so the suspect hub is definitely several degrees warmer than the others and it's not just a victim of the car affecting the meter.

Potentially very suspicious, especially as further footage shows other rear hubs all at the same low temperature, and the Hungarian motor supplier seems to be amused at how blatant the difference is.

Now, maybe it could be argued that that particular hub design is especially insulating, leading to heat build up from normal use, and there is no motor. Or perhaps the difference is only a few degrees because he's only just switched a motor on, or he had it on lower down the climb and it's cooling off. Whatever the reason for the difference, contrary to the 'waste-of-time' view advocated by jarlrmai and no doubt plenty of others, it's perfectly acceptable and indeed desirable for journalists to investigate, given i) the recent discovery in van den Driessche's bike, ii) the claims from people like ex-pro Cassani, iii) the evidence of the motor designers, iv) the dubious activities of the team mechanics shown in the film, v) all the odd bike-switching that's been witnessed, vi) the perceived inadequacy of UCI bike-testing, vii) the track record professional sports have for cheating, viii) the widespread suspicion that exists, and, of course, ix) Cancellara's preposterously effortless Paris-Roubaix acceleration of 2010.


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## deptfordmarmoset (18 Apr 2016)

The presenter states that thermal imaging cameras can be hired for under €100 per day. Where there's doubt.....

I noticed that the brightest hot point for the suspected hub motors, seen at the end, was from the non-drive side of the bike - the back of the biggest sprocket. The bike might be using the cassette as a heat sink - I'd guess they'd be pretty good for that - which might also explain the less blatant glow from the drive side if they were using the same type of motor.


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## ColinJ (18 Apr 2016)

Hont said:


> That's not from a race. That's the demonstration of the motor, you can see the bit straight after where he has both feet off the pedals but they're still turning. That's the giveaway. I don't think even Riccardo Ricco would be that blatant.


Ah, ok - yes! I just searched through for the bit I remembered and didn't spot the context.

Well, it shows that thermal cameras would be good at detecting that kind of cheating so the UCI should be using them.

As for Ricco ... he WAS that blatant! I remember one race when he romped up a stupidly steep stage finish and leapt off his bike at the top as if he had just been for a pootle round his local park while some of the best pros in the world had got off behind him and were walking their bikes to the finish!


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## 400bhp (18 Apr 2016)

I mentioned this a long time ago here. Power data should be supplied to the UCI for all pros in each race.

There must be a way to detect a power motor from the data, irrespective of simply additional power over and above the norm for a rider.. The motor itself will have little to no "white noise"for example. Overall the power graph should be smoother for someone using a motor.


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## DRM (18 Apr 2016)

If a motor is in use it shouldn't get hot, only warm,a motor that is hot is one that is failing, ie the brushes or commutator are worn and arcing, bearings starting to collapse etc, the heat detecting cameras are good, I was speaking to a sparky at a site I was working at who was using one to inspect mains distribution boards for iffy connections/mcb's and had found an mcb that was just starting to fail, the heat was there to see, if a pro bike was generating heat at the bottom bracket I would personally be suspicious as the bikes are meticulously maintained and surely would never be allowed to get in such a state, with all those mechanics prepping bikes and having enough parts to sink a battleship, I think the cameras should be used discreetly during races, and anyone found with a motor should be dropped on like a ton of bricks by the UCI.


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## jarlrmai (19 Apr 2016)

A difference of a few degrees, could be a silvered crank in the sun versus a matt black one in the sun.

However yeah I think it does need some more scientific investigation, what made me doubtful was the demo they did showed a massive difference in temp and then when they showed the footage of riders apparently using motors, the difference was far less noticeable.


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## Crackle (19 Apr 2016)

User said:


> Perhaps someone could test the detection technology with some real life examples. Set it up, ride a load of bikes past it a load of times, in different conditions, some with and some without and see how effective it is when they don't know up front which is which.


I prefer the current witchfinder approach. That way everyone is an expert.


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## Oldfentiger (19 Apr 2016)

I confess I haven't read everything in this thread. However if I were to design this I'd use a brushless motor with LiPo battery. These type of motors have high power output for their size and run cooler than old-tech DC motors. 250W is quite a modest output for these motors.
In fact more heat would be produced by the battery, but then the battery pack could be located anywhere on the bike.


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## Stephen C (19 Apr 2016)

jarlrmai said:


> A difference of a few degrees, could be a silvered crank in the sun versus a matt black one in the sun.
> 
> However yeah I think it does need some more scientific investigation, what made me doubtful was the demo they did showed a massive difference in temp and then when they showed the footage of riders apparently using motors, the difference was far less noticeable.



It strikes me that they had reached their conclusions first and then tried to fit what they had when it was obvious nobody was using the BB motors. The warm rims could be, as you suggest, simply be matt black material in the sun!


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## Dogtrousers (19 Apr 2016)

It seems to me that heat cameras may be a good method of screening or targeting specific bikes for testing, but it's insufficient to actually be used as a test itself. Hot spots may indicate a motor, but equally may be due to other reasons.

But what is actually going to happen, or is already happening, is that footage that says "this bike may be worth investigating further" will be interpreted as "this rider is most definitely and undeniably a great big cheaty Mc Cheatface". And any bit of footage that is even slightly unusual, if the rider happens to be already under suspicion (justifiably or not), will be taken as solid proof.

This is going to be fun.


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## themosquitoking (19 Apr 2016)

Right, a bicycle frame is made of tubes, carbon tubes usually in the pro peloton. Carbon isn't a great conductor of heat so if a thermal camera several metres away is able to detect a difference of a degree or more in a localised spot within a particular tube i would imagine that would equate to several degrees difference in those specific locations actually inside the frame. A motor would do that.


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## oldroadman (22 Apr 2016)

I fooled 'em all in my race days, motors in each shoe, connected by an under plaster/legwarmer cable to a battery suppository. On off switch in a very odd place. Not very effective but the tingle from the battery was quite nice....


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## deptfordmarmoset (22 Apr 2016)

oldroadman said:


> I fooled 'em all in my race days, motors in each shoe, connected by an under plaster/legwarmer cable to a battery suppository. On off switch in a very odd place. Not very effective but the tingle from the battery was quite nice....


Daft post of the day, I reckon.


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## oldroadman (23 Apr 2016)

Somewhere, there is someone who will believe it...right, shopping done, off for a potter, looks like rain. Lovely.


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## Pale Rider (23 Apr 2016)

My ebiking experience suggests heat is not a good way to detect the presence of a motor.

I've hammered my Bosch ebike a few times - not least when trying to keep up with @ColinJ and pals.

There is no detectable by hand heat in the casing after a long climb.

It's a 250w road legal system, but peaks at more than double that when it and me are giving it full beans.

If 500w or so produces next to no heat, then 50w - all a pro needs to gain an edge - is going to produce even less.

Not that it follows the bikes on the footage don't have motors, they might or might not.

Any motor on a bike is easy to detect by inspection.

To use a police phrase, it is there to be seen, as is the lumpy battery, connecting wires and activation switch.


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## Foghat (23 Apr 2016)

Pale Rider said:


> My ebiking experience suggests heat is not a good way to detect the presence of a motor.
> 
> There is no detectable by hand heat in the casing after a long climb.



All that suggests is that heat detection _by hand_ is not a very effective way to attempt to detect motors....in a certain type of frame/motor combination. The Stade 2 documentary has already shown that infrared detectors are more than capable of detecting the temperature differences (of only a few degrees) in rear hubs where hub motors are suspected. It also showed that the bottom bracket motor it tested produced a significant temperature difference.

Maybe the detectors need adaptation or refinement for optimal use in the policing of bike racing - but at least these journalists have made the UCI sit up and take notice.

Inspection is all well and good, but race officials have limited numbers, time and capacity, and hundreds of bikes to check, not to mention some seemingly well-practised evasion, avoidance and diversion tactics employed by team mechanics and riders to counter too. They need devices that will alert them to machines to be suspicious of, in live race situations - so that they can seize the bike immediately after the race, or even during if necessary, and perform the detailed inspection. And since officials won't know which riders could be using motors, or when during the race, the detectors need to cover as much ground with as little effort as possible.

Heat detectors are not the be-all-and-end-all, and certainly require the corroboration of a visual/manual inspection, but they could be the basis of an effective detection and deterrent system that affords greater capability (against certain types of motor) to the resource-limited UCI.


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## oldroadman (23 Apr 2016)

I did have a smile when it was suggested that heat detectors could be used from motos near the peloton. Just when the knee jerkers want to reduce motos, the same knee jerkers (or closely related ones) want to have MORE motos "alongside the peloton". I wonder if any of these people have ever seen/attended/taken part in a bike race at any level. certainly not in the Benelux countries, where smaller roads are a feature, and the idea of a moto "in/alongside the peloton" is not only daft but a practical impossibility, even if the riders didn't shove the ting off the road and into the nearest fertiliser covered field. Thus putting the unfortunates deep in the ......!


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## Pro Tour Punditry (23 Apr 2016)

On bike heat sensors are the answer. Better than on bike cameras, which are pish


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## Foghat (23 Apr 2016)

Why does it need more motos? Professional races already have several commissaires, riding pillion, close enough to the riders to be able to point a detector at them and view the thermal image on a handheld screen - they could easily do this job. The Stade 2 footage demonstrates that the detector doesn't have to be really close to the riders in order to discern enough to place a rider under suspicion. I dare say portable detectors with large enough screens to make sense of while on the back of a motorbike can be procured - modern technology is pretty damn capable - likewise ones with detection ranges optimised for the temperatures encountered on bikes in races. Maybe they'd need some customised panniers to store them in during less important phases of the race. I doubt if anything is insurmountable.

Once detected, a suspicious bike could be radioed to the chief commissaire and race director, who could take measures to impound the bike immediately at the finish.

Or if necessary they could enforce a bike or wheel change there and then and get the bike/wheel picked up by a following official mechanic in a van for an immediate roadside inspection and/or secure conveyance to the finish.

Once the UCI has investigated and calibrated the detection system possibilities thoroughly, including testing real-world bike/motor/riding situations with affordable portable and suitably reliable/sensitive detectors, it will likely have a pretty decent understanding of the typical thermal image signatures for hidden bike motors and the degree of certainty of an incongruous heat source having doubtful provenance - meaning enforced bike/wheel changes would not necessarily be unreasonable in a race context. But clearly discretion would need to be exercised if the suspected discovery occurred at a critical point in the race - in which case the rider(s) could be allowed to proceed but carefully scrutinised to ensure no secret bike-switching takes place before being impounded. And if a motor is discovered in a roadside inspection following an enforced change during a race, then the entire team is immediately disqualified and instructed to withdraw from the race.

Obviously a lot needs to be thought through by the UCI, and no doubt those who are so naïve as to think this cheating hasn't happened, or who object to the effort made to uncover it, will throw up 'obstacles' or find reasons to complain, but the UCI has to do something to maintain racing's credibility in light of van den Driessche and all the compelling circumstantial evidence. Laugh all you want, but a practical impossibility it almost certainly isn't - Greg Lemond thinks it's a good idea, and his opinions on such matters carry weight.


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## deptfordmarmoset (23 Apr 2016)

Foghat said:


> Why does it need more motos? Professional races already have several commissaires, riding pillion, close enough to the riders to be able to point a detector at them and view the thermal image on a handheld screen - they could easily do this job. The Stade 2 footage demonstrates that the detector doesn't have to be really close to the riders in order to discern enough to place a rider under suspicion. I dare say detectors with large enough screens to make sense of while on the back of a motorbike can be procured - modern technology is pretty damn capable - likewise ones with detection ranges optimised for the temperatures encountered on bikes in races.
> 
> Once detected, a suspicious bike could be radioed to the chief commissaire and race director, who could take measures to impound the bike immediately at the finish.
> 
> ...


Of course, if adopted and commissaires were given the job of using them, naughty riders and teams would immediately hire a camera and test to find out how long it takes for the motor to cool back to a normal level. That way they'd know that they'd have to use the motor when there's little or no chance of the commissaire passing alongside within, say, 2 minutes. One of the prime places for use would be on steep hills, particularly where roads can narrow and crowds get noisy. Static roadside cameras might manage to catch cheats or at least dissuade use in such locations.


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## Foghat (23 Apr 2016)

Indeed. And the static detectors could be on bikes too, leapfrogging the race and setting up at each place of choice (discreetly where possible) - of course, they wouldn't need to be mixing it with the riders the whole time, so no great increase in moto danger. Ditch a few media bikes if necessary to keep the moto numbers acceptable - after all, if hidden motors cripple racing's credibility, sponsors and media/pubic interest will likely be disappearing in much higher quantities.

Whatever system is implemented will have weaknesses and won't detect every transgressor. But combine it with some very severe sanctions for the teams, and the deterrent effect will be not insignificant, particularly once the first few red-handed cheat discoveries are made.


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## User169 (26 Apr 2016)

So 6 year ban and a 20k CHF fine for van den Driessche.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/van-den-driessche-handed-six-year-ban-for-mechanical-doping/


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## shouldbeinbed (26 Apr 2016)

This one is a bit of a giveaway


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## deptfordmarmoset (26 Apr 2016)

DP said:


> So 6 year ban and a 20k CHF fine for van den Driessche.
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/van-den-driessche-handed-six-year-ban-for-mechanical-doping/


Stripped of under 23 Belgian and European titles too. Prize money to return as well as the fine.


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## Crackle (29 Apr 2016)

The UCI issues a statement on technological fraud, which ppretty much poo poo's that documentary and it's findings as unreliable

http://www.uci.ch/pressreleases/uci...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer


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## deptfordmarmoset (14 May 2016)

You wait for ages and 3 of them come along....http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/three-riders-disqualified-under-mechanical-doping-rule/

Spirited defence from Peter Pouly, mind. Worth a laugh.


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## HF2300 (16 May 2016)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> You wait for ages and 3 of them come along....http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/three-riders-disqualified-under-mechanical-doping-rule/
> 
> Spirited defence from Peter Pouly, mind. Worth a laugh.



I liked "All I did was take a bike that didn't conform to UCI rules".


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## Flying_Monkey (16 May 2016)

HF2300 said:


> I liked "All I did was take a bike that didn't conform to UCI rules".



Be careful - no-one is accusing him of using a motor or anything, and you really need to read the background to this to understand what on earth is going in. It's actually even more of a farce than that story lets on:

https://cyclingiq.com/2016/05/15/ev...nyuwangi-ijen-disqualification-doubts-linger/

https://cyclingiq.com/2016/05/12/do-regulation-breaches-in-asia-tour-reveal-a-new-source-of-fraud/


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## HF2300 (22 May 2016)

Ah, well, be careful about being careful! I was just following @deptfordmarmoset comment about Pouly's 'spirited defence'. I said nothing about use of a motor, and I don't know that anyone else did - the only mention was the rule Pouly was said to have infringed, which looks like an error in the writing up anyway (and the fact it's in the mechanical doping thread.

And I still think offering a defence of 'I just took an illegal bike guv' was an interesting defence...


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## Flying_Monkey (22 May 2016)

It's just a bizarre story - the whole race was very strangely officiated. And almost everything was officials trying to cover up their previous mistakes.


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## HF2300 (22 May 2016)

Completely, but to be honest from other stuff I've read, nothing would surprise me in the world of Asian cycling.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (13 Jun 2016)

Stade 2 claim that UCI technical manager Mark Barfield alerted e-bike maker Typhoon about police plans to investigate suspected hidden motor use in the 2015 Tour de France:
http://cyclingtips.com/2016/06/hidd...used-of-alerting-others-to-police-operations/


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## Beebo (27 Jul 2016)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/36909177
3773 tests at tdf and they are all negative.
Not a surprise really.


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## SWSteve (27 Jul 2016)

What about when they freeze the tests and come back to them in 8 years


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## aj101 (5 Aug 2016)

Saw this one on Facebook last week, http://dopedbikes.com a friend reckons he is getting one for 'research' purposes. Not very powerful from the looks of it, 50 watts wouldn't get my fat arse over many hills, it would probably burn out. For the skinny guys though it's a different kettle of fish


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## Venod (5 Aug 2016)

Apologies if this has already being posted.

http://www.fatbirds.co.uk/1773163/products/vivax-passione-cf-road-e-bike.aspx


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## Pro Tour Punditry (12 Oct 2016)

Looks as if Istvan Varjas is talking again, and this time it may be a big (incremental gains) story* - nothing to link to but twitter seems to have a few snippets. 

*aye, I know...


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## Smokin Joe (13 Oct 2016)

Marmion said:


> Looks as if Istvan Varjas is talking again, and this time it may be a big (incremental gains) story* - nothing to link to but twitter seems to have a few snippets.
> 
> *aye, I know...


Cycling News has the story -

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mec...attempts-to-find-cheaters-at-this-years-tour/


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## Supersuperleeds (13 Oct 2016)

May be an idiot question but why would the French police be interested in mechanical coping, yes it's cheating but is it a crime?


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## Smokin Joe (13 Oct 2016)

Supersuperleeds said:


> May be an idiot question but why would the French police be interested in mechanical coping, yes it's cheating but is it a crime?


I believe "Sporting fraud" is a criminal offence in France. 

Not that any footballers have been done for diving...


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## Supersuperleeds (13 Oct 2016)

There's an article on road cc dated June saying sporting fraud was to be debated by the French this autumn so it looks like it was not a crime at this year's TDF

http://road.cc/content/news/195218-mechanical-doping-france-introduce-sporting-fraud-law-criminalise-motor-cheats


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## Dogtrousers (14 Oct 2016)

There's a whiff of the tin foil hat about that article.


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## Crackle (14 Oct 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> There's a whiff of the tin foil hat about that article.


I've expressed my scepticism before on this subject, scepticism I still hold, plus, the UCI where using thermal cameras at the TdeF this year. It's all a bit, the secret life of Mechanical Mitty, to me but you can all point and laugh when I'm proved wrong.


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## Dogtrousers (28 Dec 2016)

CBS 60 Minutes making a program on mechanical doping.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cbs...es-mechanical-doping-in-professional-cycling/

It seems it will feature Istvan Varjas who does seem to have the air of a perpetual motion machine salesman.


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## themosquitoking (31 Jan 2017)

https://cyclingtips.com/2017/01/60-...bout-team-sky-and-uci-at-2015-tour-de-france/


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## HF2300 (31 Jan 2017)

He said the same thing about the 2016 tour, but without naming a team or suspects, if I remember correctly.


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## themosquitoking (31 Jan 2017)

Yeah, i thought that too. Seems weird that the police need the UCI to investigate before they can.


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## HF2300 (1 Feb 2017)

Yes. You'd have thought that if they're investigating under sporting fraud laws that they would be able to proceed irrespective of the UCI. Unless they need some evidence of an offence before they're allowed to start taking bikes apart, and didn't have it.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (1 Feb 2017)

Maybe they listened to Cookson's "nothing to see, move along" and thought there was nothing to see, despite that being a phrase used when there is most definitely something to see...


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## Crackle (1 Feb 2017)

How many times has this guy appeared in documentary's now asserting it exists. He still hasn't named anyone or given information which has led to anything but I bet he's sold a few motors on the back of his infamy.


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## rich p (1 Feb 2017)

I seem to recall that quite a few bikes were tested after one particular stage last year at the Tdf. Maybe 100?
I'm not sure if they do it every stage or just targetted ones.


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## rich p (1 Feb 2017)

Crackle said:


> How many times has this guy appeared in documentary's now asserting it exists. He still hasn't named anyone or given information which has led to anything but I bet he's sold a few motors on the back of his infamy.


I believe that the lack of credible evidence points to guilt these days.


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## Milkfloat (1 Feb 2017)

The French judiciary don't tend to mess around when they really want to investigate doping. I wonder if this story is fabricated or if the French judiciary really did not want to investigate.


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## Foghat (15 Apr 2017)

Well, due to my heavy cycle-commuting workload, I decided to implement my own mechanical doping programme, which so far has been a tremendous success.

And now, having experienced how electric-assist can deliver power to one's riding, and how it can facilitate almost effortless and smooth powerful accelerations, I'm even more convinced than I was already that Cancellara's ridiculous acceleration in the 2010 Paris-Roubaix was done with the benefit of mechanical power assistance; that's exactly how I zoom/glide up hills with ease on the commute now.

Of course, Cancellara didn't need a 100-mile range at commuting speeds, just a compact motor and battery to give the short kick at the optimum time to make his key attack stick - so no need for the 4kg battery and heavy, bulky engineering of the Giant Road E+. And on the flat course of Paris-Roubaix, there wouldn't have been too much penalty to carrying maybe 2kg extra for a motor/battery.

Verdict: Guilty!!


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## oldroadman (18 Apr 2017)

Foghat said:


> Well, due to my heavy cycle-commuting workload, I decided to implement my own mechanical doping programme, which so far has been a tremendous success.
> 
> And now, having experienced how electric-assist can deliver power to one's riding, and how it can facilitate almost effortless and smooth powerful accelerations, I'm even more convinced than I was already that Cancellara's ridiculous acceleration in the 2010 Paris-Roubaix was done with the benefit of mechanical power assistance; that's exactly how I zoom/glide up hills with ease on the commute now.
> 
> ...


 And the judge says, "who are you trying to kid with unrelated evidential allegations? Have you never heard of interval training designed to provide just such a kick at important moments?". Good try but no cigar.....


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## Foghat (19 Apr 2017)

Well if you still have faith in Cancellara's 2010 attacks in Roubaix and Flanders, you must be viewing from a very naïve and/or uncritical perspective.

I used to have a lot of time and respect for him, but that evaporated with those two comically effortless yet ridiculously devastating attacks. I know plenty about interval training, thanks - done loads of it. And I know that it doesn't confer such out-of-character short-lived (i.e. two races only) supreme demolition capability. You'll note that Cancellara never exhibited that same capability before or after those two races; yes, he could ride away from others in convincing fashion, but never in such an effortlessly smooth and gliding but simultaneously _ultra-effective_ way. And in those two attacks, he rides like he's on rails despite putting out enormous wattage, in a style that is highly reminiscent of riding with the smoothing consistent (throughout the pedal stroke) input of an assisting motor - which was the reason for posting an update of my 2010 critique, now made with the benefit of knowing exactly how such motors affect pedalling and riding style; and if you examine those attacks from a more analytical viewpoint, you'll see his style (not to mention the outcomes) there reeks of the effects of motor-assist, especially when you compare with his usual style and body/bike movements while attacking.

As I wrote in 2010: _that acceleration, and similarly the one in Flanders, is just unnatural. No rider is strong enough to make such incredible progress over other riders already going that fast without getting out of the saddle and sprinting - he is that fast. The other riders weren't exactly dawdling, as you can see they were already moving away from the rest of their group who did seem to have let up slightly. Not only does he rocket away without getting out of the saddle, there is literally NO perceivable increase in effort from him - not even a slight extra crouch or tightened grip on the bars or adjustment of pedalling action or extra tensing of leg muscles; it is utterly effortless compared to what he is already doing AND he turns it on instantaneously AND he's able to turn round to see the reaction in the middle of doing this incredible acceleration._

Moreover, the fact these attacks coincided with all sorts of bizarre hand-lever-bar hi-jinks (again, not seen before or after, as far as I know) is also nicely (in)convenient.

If you can find evidence of him replicating the gliding-on-rails manner and high-wattage smooth-but-devastating effortlessness of those 2010 Roubaix and Flanders attacks, let's see it.


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## themosquitoking (10 Nov 2017)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/41937446


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## SWSteve (12 Nov 2017)

themosquitoking said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/41937446



What I don’t understand about this, is how when talking about motor doping the comment seems to be how a pro wouldn’t strap a motor to their bike. 

Comment has been along the lines thatb ’biological doping’ is still your body, but pushed to the limit, whereas motor doping isn’t your body any more - and this is why it would only ever be amateurs who would be stupid/weak enough to use a motor. 

Maybe the above is correct, and they just pulled Fabian to one side and said ‘this isn’t right...’


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## cougie uk (22 Jul 2022)

Have the UCI abandoned their hunt for motors these days ? 
I've not heard of any x rays this year or for quite a while now. 

I don't believe they've ever found a motor on a team bike have they despite the French UCI president really going on a crusade to find them.


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