# What's with the fuel prices! And cheap whisky, apparently ...



## PeteXXX (17 Jul 2021)

Going up & up at the moment! 
Local (Northampton) is about £133.9 pl 
Tesco is the same price as the BP a few miles away. 
Wellingborough and Kettering are a couple of pence cheaper. 

I've seen it @ £139.9 on the Trunk Road services. 

Profiteering? Shortages? Did I read, somewhere, that the Arab States are slowing production? 
I'm glad I don't use too much, but it's certainly outstripping inflation.. 
⛽


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## Richard A Thackeray (17 Jul 2021)

At Scotch Corner, on the A1/A66 junction, coming home from Northumberland, last week, diesel was £1.48/litre


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## gbb (17 Jul 2021)

Over 10 years ago iirc, unleaded reached 1.43 ltr and I remember seeing lots more commuting cyclists on all sorts of bikes,you sensed it was punishing for some.
It could be headed that way again, I already see how much less I'm getting for my habitual £35 top up.

Surely it's the only industry that operates as a cartel and gets away with it.


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## Drago (17 Jul 2021)

Demand around the world slumped badly during covid, and the OPEC nations - who are far too reliant on oil income - took a spanking. As a result OPEC members have agreed to limit production to bolster prices, and we are the ones who get squeezed.

That in turn hits the cost of road transport, so peices will rise.

The problem with this, and other currwnt inflationary factors, is that they are all offshore and/or beyond the control of the government, so if inflatuon rises then raising interest rates to try and slow the economy won't work.

Luckily I use about 1/2 @ tank of fuel every 5 ir 6 weeks, so the cost could quadruple and it won't affect me. Mrs D runs all week on electric and only fires up the petrol motor on a long journey, so it doesn't affect her (consumption during ownership 109mpg - who says plug in hybrids don't work?), but her new Polestar 2 areives first or 2nd week of September so she won't be worring any more over even the miserly amound she uses.


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## Brandane (17 Jul 2021)

It doesn't seem to be affecting the amount of traffic on the roads around here! It's been manic since the relaxation of Covid rules, and with the current good weather seems to be getting even worse. I live in a popular seaside resort though, so maybe we are more affected than most. Today as most days the car is parked up and I am determined not to use it in silly season. It'll be gridlock, and I don't have off street parking so I won't get parked anywhere near my house until about 7pm if I do move the car.


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## PeteXXX (17 Jul 2021)

I usually only use mine for the 10 days a month that I work. 25 mile round trip @ 53+ per gallon.

Most other chores & errands are on the bike..


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## Drago (17 Jul 2021)

I must say, trqffic levels seem to have rpebounded beyond the pre covid levels. Still a bit quieter here in rural poshshire, where the company directors and mid level execs are enjoyong gome working, but town is manic.

Im also surprised at the number of electric cars that are now to be seen. I feel a bit guilty rolling coal in my 2.4 diesel with quad exhausts!  Of course, the 1200-1500 miles a year I do is responsible for a lot less polltuon than the 10,000+ miles of electricity the typical e-car driver will be gulping, but I still feel as uncomfortable as Mr T at a Merle Haggard concert


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## Bonefish Blues (17 Jul 2021)

Drago said:


> Luckily I use about 1/2 @ tank of fuel every 5 ir 6 weeks, so the cost could quadruple and it won't affect me. Mrs D runs all week on electric and only fires up the petrol motor on a long journey, so it doesn't affect her (consumption during ownership 109mpg - who says plug in hybrids don't work?), but her new Polestar 2 areives first or 2nd week of September so she won't be worring any more over even the miserly amound she uses.


Are you on an Economy 7 tariff? My PHEV, when I ran one, cost me buttons to charge overnight on E7


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## Drago (17 Jul 2021)

Yeah, we're on Economy 7. Mrs D's T8 gets plugged in overnight and it rrally does make little difference to the bill. Technically, we get NET free electricity. We have 5kW solar and over the course of the year the income from that usually just outweighs the value of the electeicity we pay for. On top of that we get the free juice to use ourselves while the sun is shining.


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## cougie uk (17 Jul 2021)

Eight year high apparently according to the AA. 
I just wish I had solar to power my EV at the moment. Glorious sunshine here.


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## Richard A Thackeray (17 Jul 2021)

Just over a year ago, it dipped to (l seem to recall?) that around here, it got to £1.07/litre


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## tyred (17 Jul 2021)

It doesn't seem to discourage the body kit and big bore exhaust brigade from pointlessly driving around the town repeatedly night after night.


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## DRHysted (17 Jul 2021)

gbb said:


> Over 10 years ago iirc, unleaded reached 1.43 ltr and I remember seeing lots more commuting cyclists on all sorts of bikes,you sensed it was punishing for some.
> It could be headed that way again, I already see how much less I'm getting for my habitual £35 top up.
> 
> Surely it's the only industry that operates as a cartel and gets away with it.



I believe the diamond trade is also worked as a cartel with limited numbers being released to the market in order to maintain the value. Historically engagement rings weren’t diamonds until a very successful advertisement campaign I think by Debeers.


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## Grant Fondo (17 Jul 2021)

Quick calc: £2,045* less spent on fuel between July 20-21, compared to July 19-20**
*Excellent justification for adding another bike to the stable
** using £1.20/litre


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## Richard A Thackeray (17 Jul 2021)

Just topped up the Kodiaq, at £1.30/litre at ASDA - Glasshoughton

Whilst in the store, we ended up looking at whiskey
I’m tee-total, but wife likes it
The cost is silly for the constituent ingredients, but yes, mainly taxation on it
Some worked out to £67/litre!!!!!


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## Milzy (17 Jul 2021)

Richard A Thackeray said:


> Just topped up the Kodiaq, at £1.30/litre at ASDA - Glasshoughton
> 
> Whilst in the store, we ended up looking at whiskey
> I’m tee-total, but wife likes it
> ...


I like real & craft ales but tried to get into the whiskey thing but it is all disgusting no matter what type, even the most expensive you can get. I’d rather have a drop of rum but most spirits are horrid & evil to be fair. Cold cider is ok on a hot day.


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## MrGrumpy (17 Jul 2021)

Rums nice ( with coke ) and so is a nice cider on a hot day. Still like my malts :-)


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## PeteXXX (17 Jul 2021)

Unleaded £124.9 a litre @ Sainsburys Derby, today.. 👍


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## Drago (18 Jul 2021)

Milzy said:


> I like real & craft ales but tried to get into the whiskey thing but it is all disgusting no matter what type, even the most expensive you can get. I’d rather have a drop of rum but most spirits are horrid & evil to be fair. Cold cider is ok on a hot day.


Heresy! Whisky is like an angel is crying on your tongue.


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## gbb (18 Jul 2021)

Cant say im a whiskey lover although for the most part id only drank blended. My late brothern liked a tipple and tried his single malt...wasnt much better IME, clearly some of us just dont like the stuff .
The price analogy is fair tbf, it makes ypu realise how cheap petrol is, in some cases, almost as cheap as water. Doesnt seem much of a consolation when youve always tried to limit your useage


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## Drago (18 Jul 2021)

Blended is for Lowland Scottish wino's and french polishers.


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## Grant Fondo (18 Jul 2021)

A bottle of Laphroig did for me at uni. Never had another sip in 30 years.


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## glasgowcyclist (18 Jul 2021)

PeteXXX said:


> Unleaded £124.9 a litre @ Sainsburys Derby, today.. 👍



That must be a world record. Nearly £125 for a litre?! 😄


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## Milzy (18 Jul 2021)

glasgowcyclist said:


> That must be a world record. Nearly £125 for a litre?! 😄


Year 2500 prices already.


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## PeteXXX (18 Jul 2021)

glasgowcyclist said:


> That must be a world record. Nearly £125 for a litre?! 😄


I'm not even going to edit that!! 😂


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## Drago (18 Jul 2021)

Grant Fondo said:


> A bottle of Laphroig did for me at uni. Never had another sip in 30 years.


A bottle of Laphroaig got me instantly addicted to a dram of the Devil's own hot piss.


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## MrGrumpy (18 Jul 2021)

Drago said:


> A bottle of Laphroaig got me instantly addicted to a dram of the Devil's own hot piss.


Laphroaig doesn’t do it for me, too peaty for my taste buds. However I’m finding the Speyside malts a bit too sweet. Maybe I need to swap over :-)


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## Drago (18 Jul 2021)

The only sweet one I like is Glenlivet.


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## Drago (19 Jul 2021)

And no sooner does CycleChat get on the case then OPEC and Rissia agree to increase production to reduce prices and easy the impact on the world economy.

On the one hand thats good. On the other, all that does is slow the rate at which the economy reduces its reliance upon fossil fuels, and adds to pollution and climate change.


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## tyred (19 Jul 2021)

Forget petrol, I demand a reduction in whiskey prices. Get the priorities right.


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## Drago (19 Jul 2021)

The whiskey situation is dire. Im down to my last 3 bottles, so will be dry in a week.


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## tyred (19 Jul 2021)

If people drank more whiskey they'd be too drunk to drive which would lead to reduced traffic congestion, less accidents and less pollution


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## raleighnut (19 Jul 2021)

Drago said:


> Blended is for Lowland Scottish wino's and french polishers.


good for degreasing chains too.


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## raleighnut (19 Jul 2021)

tyred said:


> Forget petrol, I demand a reduction in whiskey prices. Get the priorities right.


How come they always reduce the price around the 'festive' season. just remember Whisky is for life not just for Christmas.


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## Drago (19 Jul 2021)

Im aleays pleased that duty rises usually exclude pipe tobacco, which is nothing to do with the unusually high number of MPs who smoke pipes themselves.


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## GilesM (30 Jul 2021)

Drago said:


> Blended is for Lowland Scottish wino's and french polishers.



Oh, in this Lowland we have Glenkinchie, excellent stuff.

People shouldn't knock the high petrol prices and those who still buy it, when Rishi is counting the money the fuel duty and the related VAT increase will be most welcome, and remember, as more people use plug in cars we'll have to find a few new ways to raise cash. Cheap electric motoring isn't here to stay.


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## Salty seadog (18 Sep 2021)

Drago said:


> A bottle of Laphroaig got me instantly addicted to a dram of the Devil's own hot piss.



The 10 obviously. A real gem.


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## Nebulous (18 Oct 2021)

We visited Dufftown recently and I saw the claim that with 7 distilleries it submits more money to the treasury per head of population than anywhere else in the UK. 

I also saw someone quote his father:- 

The Lord's my shepherd, I'll not want,
as long as there's whisky in Glen Grant, 
and when it's done and there's no more, 
I'll cross the hill to Cragganmore.


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## Profpointy (18 Oct 2021)

Drago said:


> The only sweet one I like is Glenlivet.



Glenlivet French Oak 15 is rather good, and not silly money - maybe forty odd quid


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## PK99 (18 Oct 2021)

Nebulous said:


> We visited Dufftown recently and I saw the claim that with 7 distilleries it submits more money to the treasury per head of population than anywhere else in the UK.




We visited Dufftown a few years ago - Dufftown by name and nature! 
A dour depressed and depressing place.


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## Profpointy (18 Oct 2021)

Salty seadog said:


> The 10 obviously. A real gem.



The Select is rather poor however. I bought a bottle thinking it was a bargain for Laphroig, then discovered it wasn't the same stuff. The 10 is as good as ever and still reasonable money, and on one occasion less than the "Select" though may have been a mix up.


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## Profpointy (18 Oct 2021)

Stocked up on Lagavoulin 16 (a long time favourite) a few weeks back. There seemed to have been a shortage as it was out of stock in the supermarkets for a bit and up to 60 or even 70 quid to order online. Back in Waitrose for sub £50 which is pretty good value for a top tipple at 16 years old.

Another Islay one I can't quite decide on is Ardbeg Wee Beastie; a 5 year old. It a bit cheaper (baring silly shortage based pricing) than their standard, and very good 10, but is different rather than per se worse. I'm glad to have it for an occasional variation but I'd not want to pay more than maybe £35 for it.


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## MrGrumpy (18 Oct 2021)

PK99 said:


> We visited Dufftown a few years ago - Dufftown by name and nature!
> A dour depressed and depressing place.


Aye it’s not Bonny .


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## gavroche (18 Oct 2021)

The new Dacia cars can now run on dual fuel, LPG and petrol. LPG is 40% cheaper than petrol.With both fuels on board, the range can be 800 miles. worth considering.


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## gbb (18 Oct 2021)

E10 is £1.44 litre at my local garage.
97/98 Ron- E5 is £1.49 litre
12 years ago'ish , normal unleaded got to £1.43, oil was over 100 dollars a barrel iirc. I have not seen how much it is lately.


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## Nebulous (20 Oct 2021)

PK99 said:


> We visited Dufftown a few years ago - Dufftown by name and nature!
> A dour depressed and depressing place.



We were staying in Aberlour actually and I thought it was nice, only visited Dufftown briefly. 

One of my most difficult shifts on a bike was the section between Dufftown and Tomintoul. Unusually for us it was sweltering and I hadn't drunk enough, had to take off my helmet and hang it over my handlebars. Packed after I got to Tomintoul.


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## Jenkins (15 Feb 2022)

For the first time that I can remember in a long while, the diesel & petrol prices were the same (£1.499 per litre) at my local filling station.


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## gbb (12 Mar 2022)

Locally, 3 price increases in 4 or 5 days, was 1.45 ltr, 2 days later 1.49, today 1.53 for E10.
Luckily i filled up with E5 at 1.65 ltr early this week, depread to think what it is niw.
140 mile round trip today saw a return of 51mpg from a 2 ltr Mazda, driven steadily. Very little traffic out there, A1 was quiet, A617 Mansfield go Newark, most of the time there were NO vehicles in front or behind me for as far as i could see either way, (barring a couple roundabouts at main road intersections) never had that before.
A1, ive seen more traffic on it at 2am, its really biting perhaps.


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## Mike_P (12 Mar 2022)

Locally there is at least 12p a litre variation in E10 prices, Morrisons seeming to be the least expensive at 155.7 this morning although it was 152.9 when I put 25 litres in on Thursday.


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## Brandane (13 Mar 2022)

Locally E10 has jumped from 149.9 ppl 2 weeks ago to 162.9 now. 
I was in Ayr on Friday and saw E10 for sale in a Shell station at 174.9 ppl. Two miles along the same road, in Prestwick, a BP station were selling same grade for 153.9 ppl.. Which makes me think these price rises are not all down to increases in the price of oil. Some people are just greedy, profiteering bassas.


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## PeteXXX (13 Mar 2022)

As I said a few posts ago, Morrisons went up by 2ppl during the day. I checked and they hadn't had a delivery so it was the same E10 as at 06:00.
Pure profiteering IMHO


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## Brandane (13 Mar 2022)

I was out for a 20 mile cycle earlier and it was very noticeable that the roads were a lot quieter than a usual Sunday afternoon here. Being by the sea with pubs, chip shops, and ice cream vendors, we are usually overrun with Sunday afternoon dawdlers, but not today. Weather isn't great either, but that doesn't normally deter them.


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## Grant Fondo (13 Mar 2022)

50% increase since the low in 2020. HM Treasury coining it.


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## gbb (13 Mar 2022)

Grant Fondo said:


> 50% increase since the low in 2020. HM Treasury coining it.


Coining it in every which way.
E10, less mpg, costs you more to do the same.
People like me, switched to E5, cost more. Win win, let alone the prices rising we're seeing at the mo.

Im not one given to conspiracy theories but ...


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## icowden (13 Mar 2022)

Nebulous said:


> We were staying in Aberlour actually and I thought it was nice, only visited Dufftown briefly.


Same here. It has a co-op which was the nearest supermarket to where we were staying in Glenlivet.


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## cyberknight (13 Mar 2022)

Filled the tank up yesterday , it was half empty and still put close to £50 in, i used to get a good 3/4 of a tank for that amount .Determined to cycle to work tomorrow as we really need to start being careful.
Locally it was 1.55-1.60 a litre at the supermarkets 
On a similar vein got an email from energy provider telling me to put up the direct debit so i added £40 a month to it for now , i did check for a better tariff on the site out of interest and they said im on the best one currently but the alternative " green " one they wanted over £300 a month ! which is close to 3 times what mine is currently


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## jowwy (14 Mar 2022)

179.9 local to me and some stations out of diesel.....


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## Grant Fondo (14 Mar 2022)

According to the RAC ....


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## oldwheels (14 Mar 2022)

Grant Fondo said:


> According to the RAC ....
> View attachment 635324


Notice we are paying tax on tax ie fuel duty which is a tax is also taxed by VAT.


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## oldwheels (14 Mar 2022)

Went down to out local garage for petrol for a lawnmower @ 164.9p.
There is only one pump for diesel and one for petrol. None of your fancy stuff here.

I remember being warned by a garage manager I knew not to ever take on a filling station business as the fuel companies fixed their prices according to turnover and if you sold more then your price went up. Basically you were on a wage as they allowed you to make a certain amount of profit but the only way you could get more was to have another sideline like a shop where they did not know how much your turnover was.
Profiteering is not so much by the retailer but the the wholesale distributer.


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## Moodyman (14 Mar 2022)

I went to see the doc today as I start to sweat and suffer anxiety attacks every time I fill up my car.

He said I have car owner virus and to ride my bike more.


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## jowwy (14 Mar 2022)

Moodyman said:


> I went to see the doc today as I start to sweat and suffer anxiety attacks every time I fill up my car.
> 
> He said I have car owner virus and to ride my bike more.


 terrible joke


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## Moodyman (14 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> terrible joke



You're right, it's not as funny as your £2 a litre one,🤪


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## Ming the Merciless (14 Mar 2022)

Moodyman said:


> I went to see the doc today as I start to sweat and suffer anxiety attacks every time I fill up my car.
> 
> He said I have car owner virus and to ride my bike more.



Can I have a full tank of petrol for my Skoda?
Seems like a fair exchange !


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## jowwy (14 Mar 2022)

Moodyman said:


> You're right, it's not as funny as your £2 a litre one,🤪


i beleive there is a station in london charging 206.9 a litre right now


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## Grant Fondo (14 Mar 2022)

no more fancy V Power now, going for the not-cheap 'n' cheerful stuff.


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## Ming the Merciless (14 Mar 2022)

Grant Fondo said:


> no more fancy V Power now, going for the not-cheap 'n' cheerful stuff.



Chip shop used oil?


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## oldwheels (14 Mar 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Chip shop used oil?


We had one guy here who owned a pub and chip van and he did just that. He mixed it with some diesel but no idea of the proportions. Stank a bit but worked ok. 
He has now gone respectable with a Peugeot van but still wears a boiler suit even tho’ he is probably the richest man on the island. Ex fisherman with a multitude of business interests.


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## gavroche (15 Mar 2022)

How many 22 reg new cars have you seen so far? I have only seen one and that was this morning. Are people not buying new cars because of fuel prices or is the shortage delaying demand that much? 
I know mine is not coming till May and it was ordered in mid November.


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## gbb (15 Mar 2022)

gavroche said:


> How many 22 reg new cars have you seen so far? I have only seen one and that was this morning. Are people not buying new cars because of fuel prices or is the shortage delaying demand that much?
> I know mine is not coming till May and it was ordered in mid November.


Not a single one. When are (were) they on the roads ?


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## PeteXXX (15 Mar 2022)

gavroche said:


> How many 22 reg new cars have you seen so far? I have only seen one and that was this morning. Are people not buying new cars because of fuel prices or is the shortage delaying demand that much?
> I know mine is not coming till May and it was ordered in mid November.


I've seen a few. 1st one was a Tesla. T'others were petrol types.


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## Electric_Andy (15 Mar 2022)

I've read many a story about the fuel prices. Some say that the petrol stations are ripping motorists off by raising the prices, even though brent crude has come down in price. Others say they cannot lower the prices accordingly becasue they have paid for future orders at the inflated price, so lowering them now would mean selling at a loss. I can understand both trains of thought really. All I know is, my Diesel Passat will probably (hopefully) be the last ICE car I ever buy. But I'm hoping to keep it for at least 10 years longer if it lasts that long!


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## icowden (15 Mar 2022)

gavroche said:


> How many 22 reg new cars have you seen so far? I have only seen one and that was this morning. Are people not buying new cars because of fuel prices or is the shortage delaying demand that much?
> I know mine is not coming till May and it was ordered in mid November.


Mine was ordered in January and is coming end October. I think there is an increase in wanting electric vehicles and a huge delay in actually getting them.


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## classic33 (15 Mar 2022)

gavroche said:


> How many 22 reg new cars have you seen so far? I have only seen one and that was this morning. Are people not buying new cars because of fuel prices or is the shortage delaying demand that much?
> I know mine is not coming till May and it was ordered in mid November.


Seven, the first one in January.


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## Andy in Germany (15 Mar 2022)

There's certainly less traffic here as the price rises have now reached us. 

I remember this happening the last time there was an oil price spike, and road deaths dropped because people were driving less, and slower. It's mildly depressing that this is what it takes for people to stop making unnecessary car journeys, but such is life.


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## Moodyman (15 Mar 2022)

I've hear they've invented a car that only moves when the driver is silent.

It really goes without saying.


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## glasgowcyclist (15 Mar 2022)

classic33 said:


> Seven, the first one in January.



I thought the late change dates were March and September each year? How could you see a AB22 XYZ plate in January 22?
(Or was that in a showroom window?)


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## classic33 (15 Mar 2022)

glasgowcyclist said:


> I thought the late change dates were March and September each year? How could you see a AB22 XYZ plate in January 22?
> (Or was that in a showroom window?)


Irish registered, seen in Leeds.


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## glasgowcyclist (15 Mar 2022)

classic33 said:


> Irish registered, seen in Leeds.



Ach, foreign cars don’t count!


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## deptfordmarmoset (15 Mar 2022)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Ach, foreign cars don’t count!


If you're Irish it's not foreign!

Petrol: 162.9p a litre at the local supermarket (145.9p last week). I'm glad my hybrid gives over 60mpg.


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## Jenkins (15 Mar 2022)

Jenkins said:


> For the first time that I can remember in a long while, the diesel & petrol prices were the same (£1.499 per litre) at my local filling station.


Since I posted this one month ago, diesel at this station has gone up by 25p per litre to £1.749 per litre with another 3p being added overnight. Petrol is currently £1.619 (nothing added this week). I'm hoping prices may have eased by the time I actually need to use the car at the end of the month.


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## jowwy (16 Mar 2022)

i have to collect some shopping later ( aldi dont deliver, i usually use asda or iceland as they deliver ) i may need to put fuel in, but currently my gauge is telling me i have 153miles available to me


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## vickster (16 Mar 2022)

I filled up with £48 of Momentum at Tesco (my car doesn't like normal UL much), think it was £1.68 a litre, have done about 100 miles since but no longer trips planned so will hopefully last a good few weeks


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## Brandane (16 Mar 2022)

Credit where it's due, 3 ppl price drop for unleaded at my local Gulf station. Not much, but at least a change in the right direction. Unless you are of the fuel hating fraternity, obviously.


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## Accy cyclist (17 Mar 2022)

I clocked the diesel prices as I drove past 2 stations today. One (local car sales/petrol station thingy) was selling it for £1.78, while half a mile away Morrisons price was £1.67 🤔


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## icowden (17 Mar 2022)

Accy cyclist said:


> I clocked the diesel prices as I drove past 2 stations today. One (local car sales/petrol station thingy) was selling it for £1.78, while half a mile away Morrisons price was £1.67 🤔


Ah yes. Supermarket buying power vs independent buying power.


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## cyberknight (17 Mar 2022)

esso was 171.9 for unleaded


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## jowwy (17 Mar 2022)

local garage yesterday was 184.9 for diesel.......asda was 172.9, but one hundreds yards from asda, is a texaco garage, that was 182.9. 

10p difference within 100yds...again this is diesel


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## Accy cyclist (17 Mar 2022)

I'm now putting £15's worth of diesel a week in my small car, whereas before it was £10's worth.🧐

Mind you, I am doing more miles per week due to my faltering walking/mobility ability, so maybe that explains it?🤔


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## Jenkins (17 Mar 2022)

Independant garage in East Bergholt this afternoon was charging £1.869 per litre for diesel which caused a raised eyebrow as I cycled past.


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## Mike_P (17 Mar 2022)

According to confused.com Diesel has hit 207.9 somewhere and E10 189.9


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## PeteXXX (18 Mar 2022)




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## Accy cyclist (20 Mar 2022)

Crazy prices at a local car repairs/ fuel seller this afternoon!


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## icowden (20 Mar 2022)

It's the difference between being a small private petrol station and being able to bulk buy and loss lead. You'll find it much cheaper at Tesco or Sainsbury etc, and a bit cheaper at Shell or BP. The smaller the operator the less likely they are to be able to manage the price. Plus smaller operators tend to operate where there aren't bigger operators anywhere near - so captive market.


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## Accy cyclist (20 Mar 2022)

icowden said:


> It's the difference between being a small private petrol station and being able to bulk buy and loss lead. You'll find it much cheaper at Tesco or Sainsbury etc, and a bit cheaper at Shell or BP. The smaller the operator the less likely they are to be able to manage the price. Plus smaller operators tend to operate where there aren't bigger operators anywhere near - so captive market.


The garage I posted a pic' of seem to do quite well with fuel sales. I hear folk say their petrol is higher quality than the Morrisons fuel. I don't know about their diesel being better, if such a thing is possible.🤔 A lot of elderly and disabled go to 'Ridings Auto Services' because they'll pump the fuel in for you and take the payment into the garage and bring you any change, without you having to get out of the car. I've also heard the garage charges you 10% less for services etc if you're a regular buyer of their fuel, so I suppose they may be cheaper in the long run than supermarket fuel.🤔


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## icowden (21 Mar 2022)

Accy cyclist said:


> The garage I posted a pic' of seem to do quite well with fuel sales. I hear folk say their petrol is higher quality than the Morrisons fuel. I don't know about their diesel being better, if such a thing is possible.🤔 A lot of elderly and disabled go to 'Ridings Auto Services' because they'll pump the fuel in for you and take the payment into the garage and bring you any change, without you having to get out of the car. I've also heard the garage charges you 10% less for services etc if you're a regular buyer of their fuel, so I suppose they may be cheaper in the long run than supermarket fuel.🤔


I didn't say they weren't nice. I doubt that the quality of their fuel is better than that at the supermarket though. 
The point is that they will be more expensive as they don't have the power of bulk buying to get a discount, or a multi-million pound food distribution service to offset their fuel.


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## Accy cyclist (21 Mar 2022)

icowden said:


> I didn't say they weren't nice. I doubt that the quality of their fuel is better than that at the supermarket though.
> The point is that they will be more expensive as they don't have the power of bulk buying to get a discount, or a multi-million pound food distribution service to offset their fuel.


May I ask, if you were driving around here and found your fuel gauge needle on red would you visit Ridings Auto Services (granted limited opening times) for a top up, or go to the 3 to 4 minutes drive away Morrisons place of selling combustible fuel?🤔


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## fossyant (21 Mar 2022)

Accy cyclist said:


> May I ask, if you were driving around here and found your fuel gauge needle on red would you visit Ridings Auto Services (granted limited opening times) for a top up, or go to the 3 to 4 minutes drive away Morrisons place of selling combustible fuel?🤔



I'd go elsewhere - like I don't use Esso or BP locally as they are about 10p more than the supermarkets.


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## fossyant (21 Mar 2022)

SydZ said:


> I’ve been keeping logs on the usage of my car in the 4 years and 5 months I have had it.
> 
> It typically gives between 2.1% and 2.4% better mpg on Esso as opposed to fuel from the local supermarket (ASDA). In ‘normal’ times it isn’t a problem as Esso is only one percent or so more expensive. At the moment though that difference is close to 6% making the case for ASDA fuel stronger.



Add in E5 vs E10 - That extra 5p (3%) for super E5 (97 Ron) get's me an extra 10% fuel efficiency, wasn't quite as much with normal E5.


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## Mike_P (21 Mar 2022)

Commonly Esso etc fuel has additives in it which boost the mpg.


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## icowden (21 Mar 2022)

Accy cyclist said:


> May I ask, if you were driving around here and found your fuel gauge needle on red would you visit Ridings Auto Services (granted limited opening times) for a top up, or go to the 3 to 4 minutes drive away Morrisons place of selling combustible fuel?🤔


Today the Morrisons price is £1.60 for unleaded and £1.70 for diesel. So would I drive 5 minutes down the road to save 20p per litre, or £10 on a full tank?

Yes. No question.


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## roubaixtuesday (21 Mar 2022)

The main problem with fuel prices is they're nowhere near high enough. 

Most of the cost of motoring to the driver is sunk in depreciation and other fixed costs rather than marginal per mile. 

Whereas most of the cost to society in environmental damage, excluding other road users, lives lost etc is marginal per mile. 

We need much higher costs per mile to properly reflect the externalities of motoring - the cost driving imposes on others. 

All just IMO, natch.


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## icowden (21 Mar 2022)

roubaixtuesday said:


> We need much higher costs per mile to properly reflect the externalities of motoring - the cost driving imposes on others.
> All just IMO, natch.


Whilst I agree with the sentiment, the problems start to set in if you don't have good public transport - and if you live anywhere remote (that thar countryside) it's seemingly impossible to provide good public transport. This then presents a problem for people who live in that thar countryside but don't have a huge income to pay for motoring costs.

For example my 78 year old mum and 103 year old nan live in a house in the countryside. They don't get out much, but when they do, the only viable option is to use the car. They aren't exactly on the breadline with teachers pensions (and in my nan's case a full headteachers pension which she is *really *milking for all it's worth - I think she has had more pension years than she did working years!). But there are plenty of other people in their village who aren't so fortunate.

There is a bus to Worcester. It goes in the morning and comes back at lunchtime or evening. And they would need to drive to be able to catch the bus as it would take them at their age over an hour to get the bus stop (well my Nan wouldn't make it - my mum would have to push her). No bus to the GP practice of course. Taxis very expensive as they have to come out from Worcester.


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## roubaixtuesday (21 Mar 2022)

icowden said:


> Whilst I agree with the sentiment, the problems start to set in if you don't have good public transport - and if you live anywhere remote (that thar countryside) it's seemingly impossible to provide good public transport. This then presents a problem for people who live in that thar countryside but don't have a huge income to pay for motoring costs.
> 
> For example my 78 year old mum and 103 year old nan live in a house in the countryside. They don't get out much, but when they do, the only viable option is to use the car. They aren't exactly on the breadline with teachers pensions (and in my nan's case a full headteachers pension which she is *really *milking for all it's worth - I think she has had more pension years than she did working years!). But there are plenty of other people in their village who aren't so fortunate.
> 
> There is a bus to Worcester. It goes in the morning and comes back at lunchtime or evening. And they would need to drive to be able to catch the bus as it would take them at their age over an hour to get the bus stop (well my Nan wouldn't make it - my mum would have to push her). No bus to the GP practice of course. Taxis very expensive as they have to come out from Worcester.



Sure, it's difficult and requires change. 

But the current system means we're frying the planet, constricting the lives of our children, making everyone unhealthy and concreting the countryside.


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## Electric_Andy (21 Mar 2022)

Agree, we need much better public transport. Dropping my car off to the garage on Thursday, the only way back is to walk 10 minutes to a bus stop, change in town, go back nearly the other way to my house. Over an hour trip. It can be driven in 15 mins


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## vickster (21 Mar 2022)

Electric_Andy said:


> Agree, we need much better public transport. Dropping my car off to the garage on Thursday, the only way back is to walk 10 minutes to a bus stop, change in town, go back nearly the other way to my house. Over an hour trip. It can be driven in 15 mins


Put your bike in the car, cycle home? Repeat when collecting the car...
May not be as quick as driving but...


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## Andy in Germany (21 Mar 2022)

icowden said:


> Whilst I agree with the sentiment, the problems start to set in if you don't have good public transport - and if you live anywhere remote (that thar countryside) it's seemingly impossible to provide good public transport. This then presents a problem for people who live in that thar countryside but don't have a huge income to pay for motoring costs.



That's why most road pricing proposals take into account where you are driving and if it's urban or rural, so people in the countryside aren't penalised.


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## Electric_Andy (21 Mar 2022)

vickster said:


> Put your bike in the car, cycle home? Repeat when collecting the car...
> May not be as quick as driving but...


don't have a bike, and if I did it wouldn't fit! I have made other arrangements, involving more car use becasue I'm pushed for time, but my point was that a relatively simple journey to one of the main parts of the east city only has one bus route connecting it, and it only goes to city centre


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## vickster (21 Mar 2022)

Electric_Andy said:


> don't have a bike,



Why wouldn’t it fit in a family sized car? Do you have a 2 seater sports car?


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## glasgowcyclist (25 Mar 2022)

I heard on BBC radio this morning that, as of yesterday, diesel on the Hebridean island of Coll cost £2.38/L


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## Richard A Thackeray (8 Apr 2022)

We had a little discussion at work today, after listening to a couple of the Doctors complaining about the price of fuel....
Be thankful, your car doesn't run on coffee!!

One of them had called for a Costa on the way-in, so I asked how much it was
Apparantly, it was a Latte at (I had to look it up) £3.20 
According to the 'net, a medium cup is 12 fluid ounces

There's '_35.something'_ fluid ounces in a litre

Let's round up to 36, so that Doctor just paid the equivilant of £9.60 for hot-water, milk & a few ground coffee beans!! 

Crazy isn't it!


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## gbb (9 Apr 2022)

Inevitable consequences , yet ones you simply dont consider until its highlighted. My SIL is a garage mechanic, I always ask him how things are....quiet, very quiet. Quiet enough to make most of the mechanics pay off their accounts with the tool suppliers, probably fearful of being laid off.

As a petrol car owner, whats with diesel ? Colleague had to go to 4 garages last week to find diesel, ended up paying £1.94 ltr for super diesel, all he could find. Is it the protesters strangling distribution ? Is that why where it is available, its price differential to petrol is much bigher than normal ?


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## gbb (22 Apr 2022)

So while they say you shouldn't drive beyong the nearest garage trying to save money, stubborness got the better of me.
Local station, £1.63 Ltr for E10
Last week, Tescos, 1.5 miles away was £1.57 ltr

2 days ago, i needed fuel but couldnt bring myself to pay 6 p per litre extra so i drove to Tescos, by the time i got there its now £1.61. Ahh well, its better than £1.63 so i put my fuel in, drove home and parked up for the night.

Following morning, went out to work, drove past my local station.....it's gone down to £1.57 overnight 

Ahh well.


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## icowden (22 Apr 2022)

gbb said:


> As a petrol car owner, whats with diesel ? Colleague had to go to 4 garages last week to find diesel, ended up paying £1.94 ltr for super diesel, all he could find. Is it the protesters strangling distribution ? Is that why where it is available, its price differential to petrol is much bigher than normal ?


It hasn't changed. It's been about 20p per litre more expensive for quite some time.
https://www.nationalworld.com/lifestyle/cars/diesel-more-expensive-petrol-fuel-costs-3607014

The flip side is that Diesels use 15-20% less fuel than petrol cars. They were pushed by the Government as they are less "polluting" in terms of CO2 greenhouse gasses. Sadly they are more polluting in terms of NO, N2O, N3O and NO2.

Diesel has to be mostly imported whereas Petrol is refined in the UK, so things like Ukraine have really strangulated supply and pushed up prices - a fifth of our diesel comes from Russia.

I really need my new Electric car to be delivered!


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## cyberknight (22 Apr 2022)

£1.55 for e10 at morrisons


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## MrGrumpy (22 Apr 2022)

icowden said:


> It hasn't changed. It's been about 20p per litre more expensive for quite some time.
> https://www.nationalworld.com/lifestyle/cars/diesel-more-expensive-petrol-fuel-costs-3607014
> 
> The flip side is that Diesels use 15-20% less fuel than petrol cars. They were pushed by the Government as they are less "polluting" in terms of CO2 greenhouse gasses. Sadly they are more polluting in terms of NO, N2O, N3O and NO2.
> ...



Could be waiting a while……. Heard of some car orders being cancelled as they can’t be fulfilled. Interesting as well Tesla showing no signs of slowing down selling cars. Even after pushing up prices . Folk are still parting with their cash ! How the other half live !


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## vickster (22 Apr 2022)

I paid 167.9 for Super UL at Sainsburys. Car was saying 25mile range and fuel light was on. Took £70 to fill it up...never spent that much on petrol in one go ever  This should last me until 11 June (I am going to Leicestershire for a sportive), especially as I'm away for a week in late May.

I'd put £48 in on 11 March so not too bad, certainly doesn't justify spending £30k+ on an EV


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## MrGrumpy (22 Apr 2022)

vickster said:


> I paid 167.9 for Super UL at Sainsburys. Car was saying 25mile range and fuel light was on. Took £70 to fill it up...never spent that much on petrol in one go ever  This should last me until 11 June (I am going to Leicestershire for a sportive), especially as I'm away for a week in late May.
> 
> I'd put £48 in on 11 March so not too bad, certainly doesn't justify spending £30k+ on an EV



Think I’ve persuaded my eldest to not spend the extra £10k on the equivalent EV he was going to buy but instead buy the petrol version . He would never save that money over the ownership of that car !


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## icowden (22 Apr 2022)

vickster said:


> I paid 167.9 for Super UL at Sainsburys. Car was saying 25mile range and fuel light was on. Took £70 to fill it up...never spent that much on petrol in one go ever  This should last me until 11 June (I am going to Leicestershire for a sportive), especially as I'm away for a week in late May.
> 
> I'd put £48 in on 11 March so not too bad, certainly doesn't justify spending £30k+ on an EV


My heart bleeds. My last tankful (56 litres) was £99.10


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## icowden (22 Apr 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Think I’ve persuaded my eldest to not spend the extra £10k on the equivalent EV he was going to buy but instead buy the petrol version . He would never save that money over the ownership of that car !


Oh I don't know. Just wait and see how far petrol and diesel increase over the next 5 years. In the last year diesel has gone up 62p. If the trend continues it could be costing £5 per litre...

Of course Electricity is getting more costly too, but I still think it will be cheaper than oil. And it's good to know that the only important thing in life is saving money. I'm sure he'll enjoy fitting out the car with floats, rudder and propeller if everyone else does the same thing. Remember it's hard to make petrol cars float but easy to do that with electric...

It'll be interesting to see whether you were right or not...


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## vickster (22 Apr 2022)

icowden said:


> My heart bleeds. My last tankful (56 litres) was £99.10



I’ve only got a Fabia though 

And on EVs, we don’t all get company cars 
A time will come too when they’re taxed more


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## MrGrumpy (22 Apr 2022)

icowden said:


> Oh I don't know. Just wait and see how far petrol and diesel increase over the next 5 years. In the last year diesel has gone up 62p. If the trend continues it could be costing £5 per litre...
> 
> Of course Electricity is getting more costly too, but I still think it will be cheaper than oil. And it's good to know that the only important thing in life is saving money. I'm sure he'll enjoy fitting out the car with floats, rudder and propeller if everyone else does the same thing. Remember it's hard to make petrol cars float but easy to do that with electric...
> 
> It'll be interesting to see whether you were right or not...


Plenty time to jump into an EV just not now! Be an absolute mug to pay the extra premium for one . If I can talk him into buying an even older car than he is planning I’d be happier ! Fuel prices will be what they will be but high oil price also equals high electric prices as well for all the reasons we have read about with the energy crisis !


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## icowden (22 Apr 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Plenty time to jump into an EV just not now! Be an absolute mug to pay the extra premium for one . If I can talk him into buying an even older car than he is planning I’d be happier ! Fuel prices will be what they will be but high oil price also equals high electric prices as well for all the reasons we have read about with the energy crisis !


We'll have to agree to disagree. I think an EV is a good investment both ecologically and financially (if you can afford one obviously). Oil prices are only going to go one way.


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## cougie uk (23 Apr 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Think I’ve persuaded my eldest to not spend the extra £10k on the equivalent EV he was going to buy but instead buy the petrol version . He would never save that money over the ownership of that car !



I bought my EV second hand for the same price my pal paid for a second hand mini. 

I'm saving at least £100 a month on fuel and that calculation was from a few months back. Probably more now. 

Buying brand new is the worst mistake you can make. 

I know they will have to probably do a tax per mile driven eventually so why not change now and enjoy a few years of cheap driving ?


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## chris-suffolk (23 Apr 2022)

cougie uk said:


> I'm saving at least £100 a month on fuel and that calculation was from a few months back. Probably more now.



Granted, if you do a lot of miles, you'll save a lot in fuel. But my car has only done 100 miles in the last month. For the difference in price between IC and EV powered, I'd be waiting until hell freezes over to break even. Prices need to come down some.

As an aside, was in the Hope valley a couple of weeks back, and the campsite didn't allow EVs to be charged. You had to use the public charge point in the carpark in the village - except that for the whole time I was there it was out of order. The petrol station 1/2 mile down the road had both petrol and diesel. So a few other areas need to be sorted first before I'll consider EV.


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## icowden (24 Apr 2022)

chris-suffolk said:


> As an aside, was in the Hope valley a couple of weeks back, and the campsite didn't allow EVs to be charged. You had to use the public charge point in the carpark in the village - except that for the whole time I was there it was out of order. The petrol station 1/2 mile down the road had both petrol and diesel. So a few other areas need to be sorted first before I'll consider EV.


True, but fast charging was available at both Morrisons and Tesco about 20 minutes away from Hope valley. Or there was Goosehill Hall holiday cottages if you contact the owner.


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## classic33 (24 Apr 2022)

icowden said:


> True, but fast charging was available at both Morrisons and Tesco about 20 minutes away from Hope valley. Or there was Goosehill Hall holiday cottages if you contact the owner.


All very easy if, when you need them, you know that. No use afterwards.


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## icowden (24 Apr 2022)

classic33 said:


> All very easy if, when you need them, you know that. No use afterwards.


You do. Any electric car will tell you where the nearest working charge point is. Or you can get your phone out and check zapmap.


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## classic33 (24 Apr 2022)

icowden said:


> You do. Any electric car will tell you where the nearest working charge point is. Or you can get your phone out and check zapmap.


Either of those will tell you to contact the owner of another campsite, to let you charge. That's pushing things a bit.
I suppose they supply his number as well?


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## presta (24 Apr 2022)

chris-suffolk said:


> my car has only done 100 miles in the last month. For the difference in price between IC and EV powered, I'd be waiting until hell freezes over to break even


You'd be waiting about 100 years to break even on carbon emissions, too:




https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/news/stories/2019/04/from-the-well-to-the-wheel.html#


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## Andy in Germany (24 Apr 2022)

icowden said:


> You do. Any electric car will tell you where the nearest working charge point is. Or you can get your phone out and check zapmap.



I don't know why, but I now have a mental image of E-cars trundling along and complaining like Marvin the Paranoid Android: "I _told_ you to plug me in at the last campsite, but you knew better. Now you're down to 8%.

Now listen. Stop looking at that Tesla and _listen_. It's 24.63 miles to the next charging point so you need to slow _right down_. And turn _left _here. I said turn _left_. Oh, for goodness sake..."


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## MrGrumpy (24 Apr 2022)

presta said:


> You'd be waiting about 100 years to break even on carbon emissions, too:
> View attachment 641610
> 
> https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/news/stories/2019/04/from-the-well-to-the-wheel.html#



Interesting !


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## cyberknight (24 Apr 2022)

according to the news my workplace is going to have a hydrogen filling station for the local council bin lorries as the depot is a couple of miles away and the council dont think EV will have the range needed ,Council are paying for it mostly,Interestingly my company has been pushing for hydrogen against the tide of full EV


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## cougie uk (24 Apr 2022)

cyberknight said:


> according to the news my workplace is going to have a hydrogen filling station for the local council bin lorries as the depot is a couple of miles away and the council dont think EV will have the range needed ,Council are paying for it mostly,Interestingly my company has been pushing for hydrogen against the tide of full EV



Hydrogen is never going to be the solution for cars. It's a good way to keep people paying the distribution networks though. 
Hydrogen will cost more than electric. 
Then you add on the cost of the hydrogen garages. I'd much rather fill the car on the drive overnight.


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## MrGrumpy (24 Apr 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Hydrogen is never going to be the solution for cars. It's a good way to keep people paying the distribution networks though.
> Hydrogen will cost more than electric.
> Then you add on the cost of the hydrogen garages. I'd much rather fill the car on the drive overnight.



Well at least you have a drive  not everyone does !


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## classic33 (24 Apr 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Hydrogen is never going to be the solution for cars. It's a good way to keep people paying the distribution networks though.
> Hydrogen will cost more than electric.
> Then you add on the cost of the hydrogen garages. I'd much rather fill the car on the drive overnight.


But the facility is being built for heavy utility vehicles, not cars.

The "distribution networks" include the electricity networks, so not entirely free of having folk pay for them.


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## Mike_P (25 Apr 2022)

Flats etc with shared spaces are a problem as well; the solution that seems to get adopted are commercial chargers which then get listed on EV charger location sites attracting non residents with consequential conflicts possible.


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## Accy cyclist (14 May 2022)

I've been 'experimenting' with 3 types of fuel from local garages to see how my car runs and how many miles I get from their fuel. I put a tenner of E10, E5 and a tenner in from this place (not all at the same time obviously). I've heard folk say that E10 is ' cheaper but crap', but I got as many miles from it as the others and my car didn't seem to perform any differently between the 3 supposed different types of petrol. 🤔 Folk also say that E10 'isn't good for your engine', but my car did nearly 75,000 miles before I bought it the other week, so even if I only put the most expensive fuel in from now it, the damage has already been done if the 2 previous owners put E10 in while they owned it.


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## icowden (14 May 2022)

Accy cyclist said:


> I've been 'experimenting' with 3 types of fuel from local garages to see how my car runs and how many miles I get from their fuel. I put a tenner of E10, E5 and a tenner in from this place (not all at the same time obviously). I've heard folk say that E10 is ' cheaper but crap', but I got as many miles from it as the others and my car didn't seem to perform any differently between the 3 supposed different types of petrol. 🤔



Some info for you:

https://www.holtsauto.com/redex/new...whats-changing-and-how-will-it-affect-my-car/
In general, for most drivers, the switch to E10 won’t cause much impact, and could in fact save them money. E10 is cheaper than E5, as E5 became premium unleaded, and E10 is the same price as standard unleaded petrol. The UK government states a 1% reduction in fuel economy using E10 vs E5, so the changes for most drivers won’t be very noticeable, and there should only be a big impact for drivers of older cars.

The article is worth reading. For older cars (pre 2011), E10 may cause problems over time, and super-unleaded may be a better choice.


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## Accy cyclist (28 May 2022)

Yesterday I went back in time to the late 1970's/early 80's. I bought £2's worth of petrol. Ok, it wasn't 4 star it was E10. That's why I only put 2 quid in. I was near a petrol station that only sells E10 and with my tank being almost empty I didn't think I'd make it to a station 3 miles away that sells E5, so I bought enough of the stuff to get me to the E5 pump.


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## PeteXXX (29 May 2022)

I can't remember if I posted this up thread, but in approximately 1974/5 I returned from Eire on the Cork to Swansea ferry with a virtually empty fuel tank in my Austin 1100 (petrol was cheaper in Wales than in Eire at the time) 
It cost me £5 to brim the tank. 
With an 8 gallon tank, I'll let someone else bother to work out the ppl for the 7½ gallons I bought.


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## Phaeton (29 May 2022)

PeteXXX said:


> With an 8 gallon tank, I'll let someone else bother to work out the ppl for the 7½ gallons I bought.



That seems expensive, I remember riding my Honda SS50 in 1976 & putting in 4 star at 46p per gallon as was cheaper than 2 star & all my mates telling me I'd kill the engine.

As to all the EV lovers, it's not the answer, it's unsustainable, pretty sure that if the maths was done correctly over the lifetime of a car there would be more environmental damage with EV if you take into account the full cost of the mining of the battery components, the shipping of them around the world twice. 
It is also no use in commercial terms, HGV's will not work with them, 
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19Q7nAYjAJY


But all of this is just chipping away at the edge, what we need is a seismic shift in humanity, breeding programs to reduce the overall population, but it's never going to happen, we're doomed, we know it, but the money men just don't care.


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## Andy in Germany (29 May 2022)

Phaeton said:


> That seems expensive, I remember riding my Honda SS50 in 1976 & putting in 4 star at 46p per gallon as was cheaper than 2 star & all my mates telling me I'd kill the engine.
> 
> As to all the EV lovers, it's not the answer, it's unsustainable, pretty sure that if the maths was done correctly over the lifetime of a car there would be more environmental damage with EV if you take into account the full cost of the mining of the battery components, the shipping of them around the world twice.
> It is also no use in commercial terms, HGV's will not work with them,
> ...




Pretty much, although I'm not convinced it's population per se, because African subsistence farmers or Mumbai slum dwellers aren't generally buying large luxury items made of precious metals that need to be schlepped twice around the world. The problem is consumption, not sex.

Being cynical, I wonder if we in the west focus on that because it shifts the blame elsewhere for our economic damage.


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## PeteXXX (29 May 2022)

Phaeton said:


> That seems expensive



It was the first petrol station by the docks as I couldn't risk going any further to find cheaper fuel!


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## chris-suffolk (29 May 2022)

Phaeton said:


> That seems expensive, I remember riding my Honda SS50 in 1976 & putting in 4 star at 46p per gallon as was cheaper than 2 star & all my mates telling me I'd kill the engine.
> 
> As to all the EV lovers, it's not the answer, it's unsustainable, pretty sure that if the maths was done correctly over the lifetime of a car there would be more environmental damage with EV if you take into account the full cost of the mining of the battery components, the shipping of them around the world twice.
> It is also no use in commercial terms, HGV's will not work with them,
> ...




Read a report recently, that with the environmental cost of producing the batteries, you need to drive close on 100,000 miles before a break-even point against diesel / petrol. And that assumes you don't need new batteries for that mileage!


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## icowden (29 May 2022)

chris-suffolk said:


> Read a report recently, that with the environmental cost of producing the batteries, you need to drive close on 100,000 miles before a break-even point against diesel / petrol. And that assumes you don't need new batteries for that mileage!


Probably not a great report though. It's notoriously difficult to calculate. If you were driving in Norway for example, your "green" break even would be closed to 8,000 miles - it tends to depend how you are sourcing your electricity rather than the green impact of making the battery - which is significant but still way lower overall (usually) then petrol / diesel. If you are in the states where you are using a lot of coal and oil to create electricity then the break even is much much higher.

You won't need new batteries. They are getting better and better. Tesla is working on a million mile battery.


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## PeteXXX (31 May 2022)

There was a programme on PM Radio 4 a while ago, but I can't find it now, comparing all the pro's & cons of EV v ICE cars. I don't remember the full break down but it seems to depend on the mileage driven and age of ICE car traded in to buy a new EV.


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## icowden (31 May 2022)

PeteXXX said:


> There was a programme on PM Radio 4 a while ago, but I can't find it now, comparing all the pro's & cons of EV v ICE cars. I don't remember the full break down but it seems to depend on the mileage driven and age of ICE car traded in to buy a new EV.



That's just the financial pros and cons. The key benefit is having a habitable planet in 50 years time - the drive to green and renewable energy is essential to avoid climate catastrophe.


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## Phaeton (31 May 2022)

icowden said:


> That's just the financial pros and cons. The key benefit is having a habitable planet in 50 years time - the drive to green and renewable energy is essential to avoid climate catastrophe.



I totally agree with you, BUT, there is no evidence yet to prove beyond doubt that the current crop of EV's do that, you have the basic harm in creating the bodyshell & the interior, much the same on EV & ICE. Then you have the damage done by mining the metals needed for the batteries, which do appear to be shipped around the world several times by ICE engines before they are given to the customer, compared with the manufacture of the ICE unit which does it's own damage. 

We know that the ICE creates harm for the rest of its life, but what we don't know is the true harm of the EV, the EV itself may not be polluting in use, but the electricity has to come from somewhere, it's not mythically created. Just because it's at the other end of a piece of cable doesn't mean it doesn't exist, some will shout but I only use wind power, okay, but what resources were used to built the windmills, yes you could say the same about ICE & the refining of the dinosaur juice, but it has to be taken into account.

It's not a simple answer, for instance is it more environmentally friendly to keep your 15 year old diesel than it is to buy a brand new EV?

It's all well & good the Government raising the price to try to force people off the road when at the same time the Council's who are accountable to the Government are planning out of town housing estates, where there will be no schools, no shops, no public transport, no offices, no businesses to employ the residents, thereby generating more traffic for them to drive to work.

It's a big mess, I'll not see the end of the world, but I genuinely fear for my 7 & 10 years old grandchildren.


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## icowden (31 May 2022)

Phaeton said:


> We know that the ICE creates harm for the rest of its life, but what we don't know is the true harm of the EV, the EV itself may not be polluting in use, but the electricity has to come from somewhere, it's not mythically created. Just because it's at the other end of a piece of cable doesn't mean it doesn't exist, some will shout but I only use wind power, okay, but what resources were used to built the windmills, yes you could say the same about ICE & the refining of the dinosaur juice, but it has to be taken into account.
> 
> It's not a simple answer, for instance is it more environmentally friendly to keep your 15 year old diesel than it is to buy a brand new EV?


I also agree with this. It's why I posted that in Norway EVs are much more environmentally friendly than in the US - due to the way energy is sourced. Although that analysis does skirt neatly around Norway's ability to sell oil and gas to everyone else.


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## cougie uk (31 May 2022)

I think the future for all of us needs to involve less driving. We've had a few decades of great freedom but we are paying for it now. And a car shouldn't be the default means of transport in a big city.


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## MrGrumpy (31 May 2022)

cougie uk said:


> I think the future for all of us needs to involve less driving. We've had a few decades of great freedom but we are paying for it now. And a car shouldn't be the default means of transport in a big city.



I agree but we don’t all live in big cities neither . We rely on a car to get to work. I’ve got a son working three jobs just now. Hopefully that will change but he needs that car to get to those jobs !


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## chris-suffolk (31 May 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> I agree but we don’t all live in big cities neither . We rely on a car to get to work. I’ve got a son working three jobs just now. Hopefully that will change but he needs that car to get to those jobs !





cougie uk said:


> I think the future for all of us needs to involve less driving. We've had a few decades of great freedom but we are paying for it now. And a car shouldn't be the default means of transport in a big city.



I hardly use my car, but when I do I tend to do long journeys. Just back from a trip round North Wales. Now, granted, I didin't look very hard, but none of the villages I visited, nor the cottage we were staying at had facilities for charging an EV car. And given the distance for me to get there, I'd have had to recharge once if not twice en-route.

My next major use of the car will be a 300 mile (each way) trip to get my daughter from Uni in Lancaster, where she lives in a terraced street with no on street charging.

The one after that is to the North York Moors, in a cottage with no charging facility, in a tiny hamlet, also with no charging.

So, even I wanted an EV car, the practical issues surrounding ownership, in particular charging in remote places on long trips, just means it's a non starter for me right now.


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## Phaeton (31 May 2022)

chris-suffolk said:


> So, even I wanted an EV car, the practical issues surrounding ownership, in particular charging in remote places on long trips, just means it's a non starter for me right now.



You don't need an actual charging point if time is not an issue, you can plug into a 240V supply, granted it will take 8 hours instead og 80 minutes, so your cottages in Wales would probably of worked, as the last time I was there they did have electricity.


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## icowden (31 May 2022)

chris-suffolk said:


> My next major use of the car will be a 300 mile (each way) trip to get my daughter from Uni in Lancaster, where she lives in a terraced street with no on street charging.


Yep, so probably drive 200 or so miles then have a 30-45 minute break for a sandwich and coffee, then get to Lancaster. If necessary there is probably a charging point somewhere near your daughters house (there are 11 pod points in and around the university according to zap map).


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## chris-suffolk (31 May 2022)

Phaeton said:


> You don't need an actual charging point if time is not an issue, you can plug into a 240V supply, granted it will take 8 hours instead og 80 minutes, so your cottages in Wales would probably of worked, as the last time I was there they did have electricity.



True, they did have electrcity, and the local fuel station refuelled in approx 5 minutes, vs 8 hours or even 80 minutes. We need a rapid and widespread increase in rapid charging points, that are reliable rather than out of action when you get there.


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## chris-suffolk (31 May 2022)

icowden said:


> Yep, so probably drive 200 or so miles then have a 30-45 minute break for a sandwich and coffee, then get to Lancaster. If necessary there is probably a charging point somewhere near your daughters house (there are 11 pod points in and around the university according to zap map).



I usually don't stop for the whole journey, so instantly my journey time has increased by 45 minutes = 15% increase in travel time. Then, I have to charge again in or around Lancaster and find something to do whilst it charges, rather then load the car with my daughters belongings, then repeat on the way back.

Solution I'd like to see is a removable battery pack, that I switch out at the equivalent of a petrol station and insert a new one. Then I can 'charge' in the same time it currently takes to fill with diesel / petrol. That boat has sailed, but would have been good if thought about upfront.


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## Mike_P (31 May 2022)

There is such a battery swop system. It was on a TV EV car program. Think it was in one of the Scandinavian countries.


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## cyberknight (31 May 2022)

Mike_P said:


> There is such a battery swop system. It was on a TV EV car program. Think it was in one of the Scandinavian countries.



indeed although it relies on the vehicles having a standardized battery pack system which i don't think the majority of manufacturers use yet ?


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## Phaeton (31 May 2022)

cyberknight said:


> indeed although it relies on the vehicles having a standardized battery pack system which i don't think the majority of manufacturers use yet ?


Or any of them, it wouldn't be in their financial interest to do this. It would also stifle
R&D


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## cougie uk (31 May 2022)

chris-suffolk said:


> I usually don't stop for the whole journey, so instantly my journey time has increased by 45 minutes = 15% increase in travel time. Then, I have to charge again in or around Lancaster and find something to do whilst it charges, rather then load the car with my daughters belongings, then repeat on the way back.
> 
> Solution I'd like to see is a removable battery pack, that I switch out at the equivalent of a petrol station and insert a new one. Then I can 'charge' in the same time it currently takes to fill with diesel / petrol. That boat has sailed, but would have been good if thought about upfront.



How long is that drive then ? 5 hours ? Aren't you advised to break long journeys up ? 

I know there's a few charging stations in north Wales. You've just not noticed them. 

I can cope with my longer journeys involving a recharge stop of 45 mins or so as my fuel bill is 1/10 the cost of petrol the rest of the time. 

Swappable batteries would involve standardisation, employing staff to remove and replace the batteries etc etc. Probably would take longer than the fast charging now.


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## PeteXXX (1 Jun 2022)

cougie uk said:


> How long is that drive then ? 5 hours ? Aren't you advised to break long journeys up ?
> 
> I know there's a few charging stations in north Wales. You've just not noticed them.
> 
> ...



Just out of interest, how much per thingywhatsit of power cost and does it vary from supermarket to motorway charging points?


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## icowden (1 Jun 2022)

chris-suffolk said:


> I usually don't stop for the whole journey, so instantly my journey time has increased by 45 minutes = 15% increase in travel time. Then, I have to charge again in or around Lancaster and find something to do whilst it charges, rather then load the car with my daughters belongings, then repeat on the way back.


Seriously, you are driving 5 hours plus to Lancaster, loading straight up and driving 5 hours back again? That just sounds dangerous to me.
The recommendation is that you have at least a 15 minute break every two hours. 

Personally I'd set off before lunch, stop for lunch and a top up charge, then find a charger near my daughters digs. Take her out for dinner, spend the night in a hotel then load up all her stuff and set off back.


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## icowden (1 Jun 2022)

PeteXXX said:


> Just out of interest, how much per thingywhatsit of power cost and does it vary from supermarket to motorway charging points?


It costs the same as a piece of string and each point will have its own price. If you charge on the motorway, expect to get very high prices just as you do for petrol / diesel.

Tesco / VW's network have free charging at 7kw and 28kw chargers, 50kw chargers are 28p per kWh. 

An ID4 has a usable capacity of 77kWh so from empty to full at at 50kw would cost £21.56. 
Realistically you wouldn't do that - mostly because the closer you get to full, the slower the charge gets, and you aren't going to be charging from empty.
You'd probably be charging about 50kwh or about £14. 

Either way, the same sort of range in my Diesel Scenic would cost me around £40-£50 at the moment. Tesla charge 28p per kWh, SpeakEV charge 37p. On the motorway you might expect 30p per kWh from Ecotricity chargers. BP Pulse have a model which requires a monthy subscription of £7.85 and then 12p / 15p/ 27p depending on how powerful a charger you are using.

Home charging will cost about 14p per kWH although it will depend on your tariff, if you have solar panels etc.

Figures taken from here (mostly):-
https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/electric-cars/charging/how-much-does-it-cost-to-charge-an-electric-car/


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## cougie uk (1 Jun 2022)

I'm on a v cheap offpeak rate of 5p per kWh so it's so much cheaper than petrol. 
That tariff ends in September but it'll still be a bargain compared to an ICE car.


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## MrGrumpy (1 Jun 2022)

It may well be a bargain once you remove the cost aspect of purchasing said car. For those of us who owe nothing on our cars or do not very much mileage , it’s still may not cost in !


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## gzoom (2 Jun 2022)

icowden said:


> Figures taken from here (mostly):-
> https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/electric-cars/charging/how-much-does-it-cost-to-charge-an-electric-car/



Those figures are about 12 months out of date.

Electricity costs have gone up alot. Tesla Rapid chargers (Superchargers) are all now 50p/kWh = roughly 13p/mile.

Gridserve the other large charging next work is 45p/kWh so similar costs.

But these chargers run at 250KW+ (30+ times more powerful than home chargers), and designed for Mway trips. Petrol stations are more expensive at service stations too.

Slower chargers are cheaper they range from 20p-30p/kWh, so 7-10p/mile. 

Home electricity isn't that cheap either these days, depending on the traiff is between 7p-27p/kWj, so 2-7p/mile.

In comparison a diesel car doing 50mpg, with diesel at £1.80/l will cost you 16p/mile, at 25mpg for large SUV that's 33p/mile.

Essentially the fuel savings on EVs is less than before, but the less efficient your current combustion car and the more miles you do, the more you 'save'.

My EV replaced a 380whp BMW that struggled to do 25mpg and drank supeunlead. We do 15k per year in the main family car, so thats a saving of about £4k a year in fuel costs.

We've had an EV for over 7 years now, so roughly speaking we've 'saved' about £27k in fuel costs alone.


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## MrGrumpy (2 Jun 2022)

gzoom said:


> Those figures are about 12 months out of date.
> 
> Electricity costs have gone up alot. Tesla Rapid chargers (Superchargers) are all now 50p/kWh = roughly 13p/mile.
> 
> ...



It’s dilemma for sure , seriously not sure what my next car should be . Decision to be made on the caravan first, if I sell it it makes an EV decision easier I dare say .


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## gbb (2 Jun 2022)

Prices keep marching on...and up 
around 10 days ago, local station, 1.63 ltr for E10 petrol
A few days later, £1.65
A week later, £1.67
Couple days later, £1.71 ltr


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## icowden (2 Jun 2022)

gbb said:


> Prices keep marching on...and up
> around 10 days ago, local station, 1.63 ltr for E10 petrol
> A few days later, £1.65
> A week later, £1.67
> Couple days later, £1.71 ltr



And today, Diesel was £1.85 and petrol £1.73 here at Tesco. £104 for 56 litres.😢😢😢


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## chris-suffolk (2 Jun 2022)

gzoom said:


> Those figures are about 12 months out of date.
> 
> Electricity costs have gone up alot. Tesla Rapid chargers (Superchargers) are all now 50p/kWh = roughly 13p/mile.
> 
> ...



My diesel regularly returns 65mpg, which (even at todays prices) is about 13p/mile (if you shop around for diesel) I don't think that's too bad, as I own the car and don't need to shell out for an expensive EV. Can't actually find a fully electric estate eqivalent to my VW Passat, and the hybrids are about £45-50k, which is nearly double the ICE version, so would take a while to get payback.


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## Phaeton (2 Jun 2022)

Just seen 194.9p for diesel at Caenby Corner near Lincoln


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## MrGrumpy (2 Jun 2022)

chris-suffolk said:


> My diesel regularly returns 65mpg, which (even at todays prices) is about 13p/mile (if you shop around for diesel) I don't think that's too bad, as I own the car and don't need to shell out for an expensive EV. Can't actually find a fully electric estate eqivalent to my VW Passat, and the hybrids are about £45-50k, which is nearly double the ICE version, so would take a while to get



Indeed it’s comparing apples and oranges . Doesn’t make sense to switch unless there is need too !


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## classic33 (2 Jun 2022)

icowden said:


> *It costs the same as a piece of string* and each point will have its own price. If you charge on the motorway, expect to get very high prices just as you do for petrol / diesel.
> 
> Tesco / VW's network have free charging at 7kw and 28kw chargers, 50kw chargers are 28p per kWh.
> 
> ...


25% of its original?


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## icowden (2 Jun 2022)

chris-suffolk said:


> Can't actually find a fully electric estate eqivalent to my VW Passat, and the hybrids are about £45-50k, which is nearly double the ICE version, so would take a while to get payback.



The MG G5 is really the only electric estate. The ID4 or Enyak will give a similar amount of interior space. If that's the cost of the hybrids then they aren't worth bothering with as you can get a true BEV for that price.


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## biggs682 (5 Jun 2022)

Local Tesco is 173.9 for unleaded


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## icowden (17 Jun 2022)

So how are we doing now with the petrol / diesel?

I filled up last night - £108. That's £6 more than 2.5 weeks ago. £1.93 for Diesel now (£1.92 at Tesco).


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## PeteXXX (17 Jun 2022)

184.9 at Tesco Weston Favell this morning. 
Only 185.9 at Moulton Shell, strangely..


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## Phaeton (17 Jun 2022)

Called in at Costco in Sheffield the other day, never seen them queuing for fuel before, but as it was £173.9 for diesel it explained it


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## Jenkins (17 Jun 2022)

Diesel at 185.9ppl on Tuesday morning, 192.9ppl on Wednesday morning and 193.9ppl on Wednesday afternoon. That's 4% inflation in just two days.


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## Ripple (20 Jun 2022)

30th May petrol at local Sainsburys 1.66
Today (3 weeks later) the same Sainsburys - 1.87.


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## Jenkins (23 Jun 2022)

Finally reached the £9 per gallon mark for diesel at the local fuel station with a 5p per litre (2.5%) increase today. Petrol is still (just) under £1.90 per litre.


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## Phaeton (23 Jun 2022)

I was out last night & saw several garages where diesel was £198.9 it was as though none of them were prepared to break the £2.00 per litre barrier YET!


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## cyberknight (24 Jun 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I was out last night & saw several garages where diesel was £198.9 it was as though none of them were prepared to break the £2.00 per litre barrier YET!



if they do will the whole computer system crash like we expected in y2k ?


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## Phaeton (24 Jun 2022)

cyberknight said:


> if they do will the whole computer system crash like we expected in y2k ?



We can only hope


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## Mike_P (24 Jun 2022)

Diesel £2.05 at a Texaco on the A59 in Harrogate; no doubt long queues at the nearby Asda https://thestrayferret.co.uk/harrogate-fuel-station-breaks-2-a-litre-threshold-for-diesel/


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## PeteXXX (24 Jun 2022)

193.9 E10, 199.9 Diesel at Tesco Weston Favell, Hamtun this afternoon. 
I filled up for 186.8 E10 at a Shell garage in Rushden.


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## simongt (24 Jun 2022)

On my trip up the A.1 to the York Rally, didn't notice any particular evidence of many folk driving more slowly to save fuel. 
At 60mph, I was one of the slower vehicles both ways.


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## gavroche (24 Jun 2022)

And all that time, the treasury is making more and more on fuel taxes.


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## fossyant (24 Jun 2022)

We averaged 43 mpg in MrsF's Qashqai petrol in 400 miles of driving in Wales - most on slow A roads, up and down hills. Would have gone in mine, but we couldn't fit some furniture in my car as it's a 'saloon', so the boot opening is a bit small with seats down. Quite happy with that MPG 👍


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## vickster (24 Jun 2022)

gavroche said:


> And all that time, the treasury is making more and more on fuel taxes.



Lot of debt to recoup, lots of motorists, sensible.
this thread not the place for politics though.
I paid 184.9 for E10 at Esso yesterday. Should have got the previous night when it was 182.9


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## PeteXXX (24 Jun 2022)

I started this thread on 17th July last year. I was shocked that petrol had risen to 133.9 ppl!!


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## chris-suffolk (24 Jun 2022)

fossyant said:


> We averaged 43 mpg in MrsF's Qashqai petrol in 400 miles of driving in Wales - most on slow A roads, up and down hills. Would have gone in mine, but we couldn't fit some furniture in my car as it's a 'saloon', so the boot opening is a bit small with seats down. Quite happy with that MPG 👍



Averaged just over 60mpg in Diesel Passat recently touring round North Wales, with 4 adults and luggage - can't argue!


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## MrGrumpy (24 Jun 2022)

PeteXXX said:


> I started this thread on 17th July last year. I was shocked that petrol had risen to 133.9 ppl!!



Here’s the thing , the likely hood is it will never ever go back to that ! Plenty money being made out of this predicament!!


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## vickster (24 Jun 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Here’s the thing , the likely hood is it will never ever go back to that ! Plenty money being made out of this predicament!!



Aren’t we all meant to be rushing out to buy electric cars though


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## DCLane (24 Jun 2022)

vickster said:


> Aren’t we all meant to be rushing out to buy electric cars though



My £30k petrol/electric Honda hybrid's returning only a few more mpg than the ancient Peugeot Tepee it replaced. They're not as efficient as promised.


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## cougie uk (24 Jun 2022)

On holiday at the moment. Would have cost about £50 return in petrol in my Yeti. 
EV is doing it for about £2.50. 
Charged fully at home to get here and charged at the holiday cottage for free. 
Every little counts !


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## vickster (24 Jun 2022)

DCLane said:


> My £30k petrol/electric Honda hybrid's returning only a few more mpg than the ancient Peugeot Tepee it replaced. They're not as efficient as promised.


Is that because it’s a hybrid? Presumably depends how/where driven?


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## chris-suffolk (24 Jun 2022)

vickster said:


> Is that because it’s a hybrid? Presumably depends how/where driven?



I'm guessing a Hybrid only wins out on short journeys where it can manage on electric. As soon as the battery is flat, and it needs to use the engine (generally petrol) it's very unlikely to be much better than any other similar size car. Given that 95% of my journeys are 30 miles+ (which is about the range of the average hybrid) and 75% of my journeys are 150+ (way over any hybrid), then hybrid is a long way off for me.


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## DCLane (24 Jun 2022)

vickster said:


> Is that because it’s a hybrid? Presumably depends how/where driven?



Possibly - my driving style hasn't changed though. I'm fairly sedate, unless we're in a race when I drive like the rest of the support cars, i.e. an unhinged idiot.


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## Jenkins (24 Jun 2022)

gavroche said:


> And all that time, the treasury is making more and more on fuel taxes.



Not necessarily - fuel duty is a set amount per litre and this was reduced by 5p a month or so ago. Therefore if people are buying less fuel the amount of duty paid isn't as much. Where the Treasury will gain is on the VAT element.

Another 1p per litre added at my benchmark fuel station overnight so only 0.1p to go before the £2 per litre is reached.


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## Jenkins (24 Jun 2022)

Are hybrids really worth it? When running on electric they loose efficience by having to carry around the weight of the internal combustion engine & liquid fuel and when running on the ICE they have the added weight of the batteries & electric motors to carry.


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## cougie uk (24 Jun 2022)

Jenkins said:


> Are hybrids really worth it? When running on electric they loose efficience by having to carry around the weight of the internal combustion engine & liquid fuel and when running on the ICE they have the added weight of the batteries & electric motors to carry.



Depends on use and exactly what kind of hybrid it is. 

There was a Fiat 500 that was described as a hybrid as it had an extra 12v battery to set it in motion after every stop. Had no noticeable effect on MPG. 

If you can charge at home I'd just get the EV.


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## classic33 (24 Jun 2022)

vickster said:


> Aren’t we all meant to be rushing out to buy electric cars though


Electric is getting dear these days.


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## Jenkins (24 Jun 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Depends on use and exactly what kind of hybrid it is.
> 
> There was a Fiat 500 that was described as a hybrid as it had an extra 12v battery to set it in motion after every stop. Had no noticeable effect on MPG.
> 
> If you can charge at home I'd just get the EV.



I'm thinking of the PHEV sort of thing like we have at work as pool cars - Hyundai Ioniqs. Goodness knows how much extra weight is added and boot space lost to the weight & bulk of the batteries & electric motors just to add 30 miles of electric range when fully charged.


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## Chislenko (25 Jun 2022)

Fuel price protests starting in North Wales this weekend. Slow moving convoys on A55.

I'm almost certain the last fuel price protests was also started by a chap from North Wales who I think went on to be an MP.


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## Phaeton (25 Jun 2022)

cougie uk said:


> On holiday at the moment. Would have cost about £50 return in petrol in my Yeti.
> EV is doing it for about £2.50.
> Charged fully at home to get here and charged at the holiday cottage for free.
> Every little counts !



But you can buy a lot of £2 per litre diesel for the £30-60K that it cost you to buy the EV in the first place, I think you're comparing apples & pears, not everybody can go out & buy an EV let alone have somewhere to charge it at home.


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## cyberknight (25 Jun 2022)

in a similar vein someone was asking for a lift as they finished work at 10 pm and had no car fora 5 mile home trip, you can believe the comments when i suggested cycling ............


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## PeteXXX (25 Jun 2022)

My workplace has up to 30 of those pesky e-scooters outside. I'm surprised no one has been injured when the shifts turn over at 06:00 14:00 & 22:00. 
Blasted things are flying around the car park like Tie Fighters! 

I make sure I don't clock off at 22:00!


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## deptfordmarmoset (25 Jun 2022)

DCLane said:


> My £30k petrol/electric Honda hybrid's returning only a few more mpg than the ancient Peugeot Tepee it replaced. They're not as efficient as promised.



It's taken me a while to get the MPG up in my hybrid Honda Jazz. Yesterday's 240-odd miles averaged around 74mpg. B Mode all the time, thus saving on the braking, gentle acceleration, ignore the cruise control. But I'm also quite comfortable rolling along at truck speed.


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## Mike_P (25 Jun 2022)

Chislenko said:


> Fuel price protests starting in North Wales this weekend. Slow moving convoys on A55.


Brilliant, even less mpg. They would be better barricading the most expensive local filling station and advising motorists where to go instead.


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## Chislenko (25 Jun 2022)

Mike_P said:


> Brilliant, even less mpg. They would be better barricading the most expensive local filling station and advising motorists where to go instead.



"There is never a good time to be a revolutionary"


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## Phaeton (25 Jun 2022)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> ignore the cruise control.


Is that not the most efficient way?


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## deptfordmarmoset (25 Jun 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Is that not the most efficient way?


I've not used it but posts I've seen on a motoring forum suggest that it's rather more abrupt with speeding up and slowing down than a gentle right foot. Plus you can't use it and the B mode - stronger recuperative braking - at the same time.


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## Phaeton (25 Jun 2022)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> I've not used it but posts I've seen on a motoring forum suggest that it's rather more abrupt with speeding up and slowing down than a gentle right foot. Plus you can't use it and the B mode - stronger recuperative braking - at the same time.



That to me seems just bad programming by the engineers, they 'should' be able to write it so it learns how to get the best fuel economy


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## cyberknight (25 Jun 2022)

PeteXXX said:


> My workplace has up to 30 of those pesky e-scooters outside. I'm surprised no one has been injured when the shifts turn over at 06:00 14:00 & 22:00.
> Blasted things are flying around the car park like Tie Fighters!
> 
> I make sure I don't clock off at 22:00!



i nearly got buzzed by one coming out of my place last night, we did have a company brief recently stating the legality of them but looks like some must have bought them and think they cant not use it .Luckily it was heading the opposite way as it would have just held me up along the cycle path


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## cyberknight (25 Jun 2022)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> It's taken me a while to get the MPG up in my hybrid Honda Jazz. Yesterday's 240-odd miles averaged around 74mpg. B Mode all the time, thus saving on the braking, gentle acceleration, ignore the cruise control. But I'm also quite comfortable rolling along at truck speed.



i drove one of our company corolla hybrids , it was showing about 56 mpg which i was pretty shocked by how low it was


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## PeteXXX (25 Jun 2022)

cyberknight said:


> i nearly got buzzed by one coming out of my place last night, we did have a company brief recently stating the legality of them but looks like some must have bought them and think they cant not use it .Luckilyly it was heading the opposite way as it would have just held me up along the cycle path



They're a pain in the butt tbh! 
The one's at my work, and locally, are These things rather than illegal to use on public thoroughfares bought Scooters.


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## simongt (25 Jun 2022)

Interesting that in the various posts ref. fuel consumption, no-one appears to quote miles-per-litre which is the unit that we've all been buying fuel for over twenty years. But the auto manufacturers also still insist on quoting either mpg or litres-per-100km., neither of which are relevant as we no longer buy fuel in gallons and don't ( yet ) drive distance in kilometres. Using very simple mental arithmetic, I know my Hyundai 1.20 does around 10 - 12 miles per litre. 
Isn't it about time folk shrugged off the 'Imperial mindset' - ?


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## vickster (25 Jun 2022)

simongt said:


> Interesting that in the various posts ref. fuel consumption, no-one appears to quote miles-per-litre which is the unit that we've all been buying fuel for over twenty years. But the auto manufacturers also still insist on quoting either mpg or litres-per-100km., neither of which are relevant as we no longer buy fuel in gallons and don't ( yet ) drive distance in kilometres. Using very simple mental arithmetic, I know my Hyundai 1.20 does around 10 - 12 miles per litre.
> Isn't it about time folk shrugged off the 'Imperial mindset' - ?



My 10 year old car (UK spec) shows me mpg consumption, and I drive miles as shown on the odometer and not KMs. So no I’ll stick with MPG


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## PeteXXX (25 Jun 2022)

In my car, I'm a Miles & 50/53 MPG person. At work, my truck is Km & Litres per 100Km (varying from 23 to 30 depending on trailer, load and route)


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## Mike_P (25 Jun 2022)

If a garage did quote the price in gallons would anybody realise 909.1 was less than £2 a litre and 909.3 more; although I suppose the squealing would have broken out at £9


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## classic33 (25 Jun 2022)

PeteXXX said:


> They're a pain in the butt tbh!
> The one's at my work, and locally, are These things rather than illegal to use on public thoroughfares bought Scooters.


Increased to £35 or £50 a month(two options available), and the trial period ends in November.


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## classic33 (25 Jun 2022)

simongt said:


> Interesting that in the various posts ref. fuel consumption, no-one appears to quote miles-per-litre which is the unit that we've all been buying fuel for over twenty years. But the auto manufacturers also still insist on quoting either mpg or litres-per-100km., neither of which are relevant as we no longer buy fuel in gallons and don't ( yet ) drive distance in kilometres. Using very simple mental arithmetic,* I know my Hyundai 1.20 does around 10 - 12 miles per litre. *
> Isn't it about time folk shrugged off the 'Imperial mindset' - ?


How many kilometres to the litre though? 
If you want rid of imperial mindsets.


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## cougie uk (26 Jun 2022)

Phaeton said:


> But you can buy a lot of £2 per litre diesel for the £30-60K that it cost you to buy the EV in the first place, I think you're comparing apples & pears, not everybody can go out & buy an EV let alone have somewhere to charge it at home.



Second hand EV two years old. 17k. 
Mate paid more for a two year old Mini. 

Why is it that EVs always get priced up and nobody uses a Range Rover as the standard price of ICE vehicles ?


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## MrGrumpy (26 Jun 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Second hand EV two years old. 17k.
> Mate paid more for a two year old Mini.
> 
> Why is it that EVs always get priced up and nobody uses a Range Rover as the standard price of ICE vehicles ?



I’ve posted elsewhere on this but my oldest priced up a pug 208 . ICE one was £10k cheaper than the EV version ?! The Second hand car market is also nuts right now . A lot of people just sticking with what they have ! Overall cost is possibly cheaper than trading in and financing ?!


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## Phaeton (26 Jun 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Why is it that EVs always get priced up and nobody uses a Range Rover as the standard price of ICE vehicles ?



Because the car manufacturers are having our pants down with their pricing structure. My neighbour went out 2 weeks ago with the intention of buying an EV she came back with a Cupra 1.5 petrol wanted the EV version but it was 40% more.

Personally I wouldn't pay £17k for a brand new car let alone one that was 2 years old EV or not. That's over 3/4 of a years pay for me, if you've got that much spare cash to throw at a residual asset then that's good, I have other priorities.


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## Mike_P (26 Jun 2022)

IME, albeit last tried 9 years ago, potentially best time to buy new is in the last few days of a month when the dealership is wanting to boost its monthly sales figures; whether that extends to selling EVs rather than ICEs at or near cost price is however probably questionable.


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## Chislenko (26 Jun 2022)

I just have better things to do with my time than sit in a motorway service station for 1 hour 55 minutes (make sure you get out before 2 hours or the fine will follow)

And then 100 mile later I would probably have to go through it all again!!


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## Smokin Joe (26 Jun 2022)

Mike_P said:


> IME, albeit last tried 9 years ago, potentially best time to buy new is in the last few days of a month when the dealership is wanting to boost its monthly sales figures; whether that extends to selling EVs rather than ICEs at or near cost price is however probably questionable.



Between Christmas and New Year is the time to get a cracking deal. Wages and overheads still have to be paid and there is F-all coming in.


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## cyberknight (26 Jun 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Second hand EV two years old. 17k.
> Mate paid more for a two year old Mini.
> 
> Why is it that EVs always get priced up and nobody uses a Range Rover as the standard price of ICE vehicles ?



many folk cant afford 17k for a car new or second hand though


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## cougie uk (26 Jun 2022)

cyberknight said:


> many folk cant afford 17k for a car new or second hand though



True but many can. There's plenty of EVs that are cheaper than petrol cars.


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## cougie uk (26 Jun 2022)

Chislenko said:


> I just have better things to do with my time than sit in a motorway service station for 1 hour 55 minutes (make sure you get out before 2 hours or the fine will follow)
> 
> And then 100 mile later I would probably have to go through it all again!!



Ok let's say your car does 3 miles per kWh. 
(I think my car does 4 miles or so but let's give you the benefit of the doubt)
So you're after about 33kwh. 

My local Instavolt station has 50kwh chargers so you're looking at about 40 minutes to charge. Not one hour and 55. 

Faster chargers are available and spreading rapidly. 

Instavolt also have 120kwh chargers so less than 20 minutes for your 100 miles or so. 

We do more than the average mileage but needing to charge away from home is only a few times a year.


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## Phaeton (26 Jun 2022)

cougie uk said:


> True but many can. There's plenty of EVs that are cheaper than petrol cars.



True but many can't. There's even more petrol cars that are cheaper then EV's even a reasonably spec'd petrol will be cheaper than the most basic EV.

I'm not knocking your life choices but you appear to be in a position the vast majority are not, like it or not EV is not an option for the majority of people in the UK & I suspect across the world.


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## cougie uk (26 Jun 2022)

Phaeton said:


> True but many can't. There's even more petrol cars that are cheaper then EV's even a reasonably spec'd petrol will be cheaper than the most basic EV.
> 
> I'm not knocking your life choices but you appear to be in a position the vast majority are not, like it or not EV is not an option for the majority of people in the UK & I suspect across the world.



Across the world (luckily) the vast majority of people don't even have cars. Just over a billion vehicles for 7 billion people. First world problems eh ?


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## chris-suffolk (26 Jun 2022)

cougie uk said:


> True but many can. There's plenty of EVs that are cheaper than petrol cars.



Lets compare apples with apples. I'd be interested in some like for like cars (i.e. same model and spec) where the EV is cheaper than the petrol (or diesel) version. How many fingers (and toes) will I need - if any??


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## Jenkins (26 Jun 2022)

Phaeton said:


> True but many can't. There's even more petrol cars that are cheaper then EV's even a reasonably spec'd petrol will be cheaper than the most basic EV.
> 
> I'm not knocking your life choices but you appear to be in a position the vast majority are not, like it or not EV is not an option for the majority of people in the UK & I suspect across the world.



Taking one of the mass manufcturers who offer similar versions of a model in petrol & electric vehicles at random - Peugeot and the 208 version
This is the price list online for the new version of the 208GT with the electric being just a tad under £7500 more expensive than the more powerfull petrol version.





There's a similar problem with the used option - again for the 208GT and both cars picked at random from main dealer stock and both from January 2020 with the petrol version being £6000 cheaper than the electric version. Until this price differential changes, there's little chance of the electric vehicle being the first choice for most car buyers.


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## cougie uk (26 Jun 2022)

chris-suffolk said:


> Lets compare apples with apples. I'd be interested in some like for like cars (i.e. same model and spec) where the EV is cheaper than the petrol (or diesel) version. How many fingers (and toes) will I need - if any??



That's not what I said. 

There's a very nice Ferrari parked round here that Google tells me costs over 200k. 
I guess he's not that bothered about his petrol bill somehow.


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## cougie uk (26 Jun 2022)

Jenkins said:


> Taking one of the mass manufcturers who offer similar versions of a model in petrol & electric vehicles at random - Peugeot and the 208 version
> This is the price list online for the new version of the 208GT with the electric being just a tad under £7500 more expensive than the more powerfull petrol version.
> View attachment 650659
> 
> There's a similar problem with the used option - again for the 208GT and both cars picked at random from main dealer stock and both from January 2020 with the petrol version being £6000 cheaper than the electric version. Until this price differential changes, there's little chance of the electric vehicle being the first choice for most car buyers.



6000 difference is definitely substantial but you need to look at your use. If you do have to drive a fair few miles you could easily be saving £200 a month on fuel. 
Less service costs. Less parts. You'd be quids in in under three years.


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## Jenkins (26 Jun 2022)

cougie uk said:


> 6000 difference is definitely substantial but you need to look at your use. If you do have to drive a fair few miles you could easily be saving £200 a month on fuel.
> Less service costs. Less parts. You'd be quids in in under three years.



*IF* you can find the extra £6000 to start with that is. And have access to off road parking. And can afford to have the home charger fitted.

Edited with some figures...
£6000 is approximately 3000 litres of petrol at current costs or about 660 gallons which, at 40mpg, would take over 26,000 miles to recoup. During which time you'd have had to fully recharge the car 120 time (Peugeot estimate the fully charged range at 220 miles) at whatever that would cost.


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## cougie uk (27 Jun 2022)

Jenkins said:


> *IF* you can find the extra £6000 to start with that is. And have access to off road parking. And can afford to have the home charger fitted.
> 
> Edited with some figures...
> £6000 is approximately 3000 litres of petrol at current costs or about 660 gallons which, at 40mpg, would take over 26,000 miles to recoup. During which time you'd have had to fully recharge the car 120 time (Peugeot estimate the fully charged range at 220 miles) at whatever that would cost.



Better off cycling eh ? Cars are just faff.


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## Phaeton (27 Jun 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Better off cycling eh ? Cars are just faff.



Now you're just throwing your toys & dummy out, but surely there are questions to ask about the pricing, I have no idea what a 1.2 Puretech 100 EATB S6S is, but I imagine it's a basic Eurobox, but it's £25K, £25K!!!! WTF! how can they justify that amount of money, maybe I live in the dark ages, but I do not comprehend how it can cost that amount & then to add another £8.5K to make it electric, I can't justify paying £8.5k on a car in the first place. 

Then there's the finance option £549.75 A MONTH, again I clearly live in a different reality to some people, but I do think they are having everybody's trousers down


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## MrGrumpy (27 Jun 2022)

The Pug 208 is exact dilemma my son put himself through till I talked some sense into him. Even the car salesman was surprised at the cost differential. You could say the same for E bikes , strap a battery and motor on and it’s an extra £1k !!! We are being taken for a ride ( excuse the pun ) .


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## Phaeton (27 Jun 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> The Pug 208 is exact dilemma my son put himself through till I talked some sense into him. Even the car salesman was surprised at the cost differential. You could say the same for E bikes , strap a battery and motor on and it’s an extra £1k !!! We are being taken for a ride ( excuse the pun ) .



I see the comparison but I do think it's different at least with the eBike all the stuff is additional, motor, battery, controls, whereas in the case of an ICE car they are removing & making all the savings on all the ICE components.


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## MrGrumpy (27 Jun 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I see the comparison but I do think it's different at least with the eBike all the stuff is additional, motor, battery, controls, whereas in the case of an ICE car they are removing & making all the savings on all the ICE components.



100% agree .


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## Electric_Andy (27 Jun 2022)

Just looked this up out of interest: A Wisper e-bike pannnier battery at 700WH is £739. A Peugeot e-208 battery is 4500WH, which if you scale it up would be equivalent to roughly £4600 (retail). So that's an extra £4600 on the price tag, without taking into account the different drivetrain, and all the design and manufacture of the various different components that are different from an ICE car. So it doesn't surprise me that the e-car would be a lot more expensive to make, given the cost of batteries anyway, and the fact that they contain rarer metals, or at least elements that are much harder to come by than steel and aluminium which is essentially what an ICE is made from?


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## Chislenko (27 Jun 2022)

Slightly veered off from the original post but reading the latter pages of this thread it reminds me of an electric car thread from some years back.

To me, a few years later, the same conclusions are drawn.

IMHO there are still many obstacles to owning an electric car.

Where you live (off street parking) what sort of journeys you do, availability of chargers at your destination, the time to complete a long journey, mileage constraints between charging etc.

Whilst I look at the lady in our street who has just bought one, she has a driveway with a fully fitted charging point on the external wall of her house, she only goes to the shops, local employment, visit local family. When same family go on holiday to the other end of the country out comes their other car, a diesel because it just wouldn't be practical to take the electric car.

I suppose moving forward there are now an awful lot of two /three / four car families about, how many chargers and how much drive space (if you have a drive) are you going to need.

I don't know the answer but for me personally in the current situation they just wouldn't fit the bill.


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## gzoom (27 Jun 2022)

Chislenko said:


> IMHO there are still many obstacles to owning an electric car.



This is the first EV I ever drove (my old combustion car is in the background), that was over 7 years ago now.







In a little over 2 weeks we'll be going on a 4000km+ road trip to Norway, ending up here as the most Northerly point. We'll have 6 people in our EV, which we have owned for 5 years+ now and done 60k+ miles in. 

Assuming EV ownership is hard in 2022 is like a motorist saying all pedal bikes should be banned from the road because cyclists don't pay VED. Its an easy assumption to make, based on virtually no facts.


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## Chislenko (27 Jun 2022)

gzoom said:


> This is the first EV I ever drove (my old combustion car is in the background), that was over 7 years ago now.
> 
> View attachment 650703
> 
> ...



Well it's not based on "no facts" We do UK to the Algarve twice a year and trust me down the west of Spain there is very little evidence of EV charging points. Also when we arrive at our apartment complex (built pre EV) there is no means of charging, neither is there any in the local village.

Similarly I can fill up my diesel estate and can do close on 1000 miles without having to stop and wait around every two hundred mile or so.

So I do resent the chastening "no facts" parts of your post when I did specifically state that in our situation an EV was not an option for US!


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## Andy in Germany (27 Jun 2022)

Chislenko said:


> Well it's not based on "no facts" We do UK to the Algarve twice a year and trust me down the west of Spain there is very little evidence of EV charging points. Also when we arrive at our apartment complex (built pre EV) there is no means of charging, neither is there any in the local village.
> 
> Similarly I can fill up my diesel estate and can do close on 1000 miles without having to stop and wait around every two hundred mile or so.
> 
> So I do resent the chastening "no facts" parts of your post when I did specifically state that in our situation an EV was not an option for US!



I see your argument, but in fact what you are saying is that an EV is not an option because you want to maintain your current lifestyle; in the same way as I get people saying "Not having a car isn't an option". Sometimes this is the case; sometimes it's because they chose a lifestyle and need a car to continue in that lifestyle.

I'm not saying that's "bad". We make decisions, and there are consequences; one of those consequences is that our options are limited by those decisions, not outside forces.


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## Chislenko (27 Jun 2022)

Andy in Germany said:


> I see your argument, but in fact what you are saying is that an EV is not an option because you want to maintain your current lifestyle; in the same way as I get people saying "Not having a car isn't an option". Sometimes this is the case; sometimes it's because they chose a lifestyle and need a car to continue in that lifestyle.
> 
> I'm not saying that's "bad". We make decisions, and there are consequences; one of those consequences is that our options are limited by those decisions, not outside forces.



To be fair Andy it's not just lifestyle choices it is circumstances as well.

If we cut out the 1700 mile to get there and lived there instead we still couldn't have an EV as there is no way to charge it save for a potentially dangerous extremely long lead from our first floor window, across the communal landings and then down the communal stairs then across the communal gardens!!!

It is just not practical.


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## MrGrumpy (27 Jun 2022)

gzoom said:


> This is the first EV I ever drove (my old combustion car is in the background), that was over 7 years ago now.
> 
> View attachment 650703
> 
> ...



Again the issues that have been highlighted plenty times are still not addressed. Charging the bloody thing for start is not practical at home for some . So your then relying on public charge points of which there are very friggen little round even my neck of the woods. 

A colleague of mine just had a horrible experience trying to charge his brand new Q4 down south . Got to a charger and it was broken , went to another it was also broken ! Ended up eventually making it to the hotel just ! Had to slug a cable through a window to get some charge in . Before then planning a trip to the next charger . Nice holiday experience that was !

Now he was maybe just unlucky but I’m not filled with confidence


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## cougie uk (27 Jun 2022)

Chislenko said:


> Well it's not based on "no facts" We do UK to the Algarve twice a year and trust me down the west of Spain there is very little evidence of EV charging points. Also when we arrive at our apartment complex (built pre EV) there is no means of charging, neither is there any in the local village.
> 
> Similarly I can fill up my diesel estate and can do close on 1000 miles without having to stop and wait around every two hundred mile or so.
> 
> So I do resent the chastening "no facts" parts of your post when I did specifically state that in our situation an EV was not an option for US!



Weren't you telling us that it takes two hours to charge for 100 miles though ?

And if you haven't got an EV you probably haven't even noticed the chargers. 
There's a public charger about 2 mins walk from my house - I bet there's just a handful of people that know about it - if you don't need to know - why would you ?


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## Chislenko (27 Jun 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Weren't you telling us that it takes two hours to charge for 100 miles though ?
> 
> And if you haven't got an EV you probably haven't even noticed the chargers.
> There's a public charger about 2 mins walk from my house - I bet there's just a handful of people that know about it - if you don't need to know - why would you ?



Cougie. 

The facts as I see it are that the mileage available after a certain amount of time charging depends on the type of charger. As I understand it, and correct me if I am wrong, without a rapid charger it could well take two hours to get 100 mile.

I have done a reccy of our village in Portugal and the only charging point I could find was at the Golf Club and it was labelled as "Porsche Destination Charging Point" Now whether this was sponsorship by Porsche or whether they are for Porsche owners only (type of connection?) I don't know.

For us to have chargers retrofitted into our basement garage would be an expense of many thousands of Euros so another factor to take into account when doing a cost comparison.

I understand that for you and many others an EV makes sense but all I am saying that for a lot of people the practicalities / initial expenditure (on vehicle and charging system) are not attractive.

More importantly where has the buttie van gone (Tiger Bites was it?) from zone one just as you pass Great Bear Distribution?


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## cougie uk (27 Jun 2022)

Chislenko said:


> Cougie.
> 
> The facts as I see it are that the mileage available after a certain amount of time charging depends on the type of charger. As I understand it, and correct me if I am wrong, without a rapid charger it could well take two hours to get 100 mile.
> 
> ...



I've not got it in my garden ! Have you seen the parking by Green Lane - they have about 4 chargers but I've not seen anyone using them. Or anyone even parking there but I mainly ride past on Sundays.


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## Chislenko (27 Jun 2022)

cougie uk said:


> I've not got it in my garden ! Have you seen the parking by Green Lane - they have about 4 chargers but I've not seen anyone using them. Or anyone even parking there but I mainly ride past on Sundays.



I know exactly where you mean, I have not seen anyone park there either on any day of the week.

I was told by the chaps that built it that it was to be a "Park and Ride" which I presumed when they started putting yellow lines around a lot of the estate it would be for workers at the factories / units etc.

I notice the aforementioned Great Bear in response have built a staff car park where the abandoned Peugeot was for many years.

I presume the other workers have bought a bike 😊


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## Andy in Germany (27 Jun 2022)

Chislenko said:


> To be fair Andy it's not just lifestyle choices it is circumstances as well.
> 
> If we cut out the 1700 mile to get there and lived there instead we still couldn't have an EV as there is no way to charge it save for a potentially dangerous extremely long lead from our first floor window, across the communal landings and then down the communal stairs then across the communal gardens!!!
> 
> It is just not practical.



Understood, but living there would also be a choice. I''m not saying it's an immoral choice, but it's still a choice.

For example, I'd really like to live in the Black Forest, which is about 5km from here, but it is impractical with a bike because of the hilly nature of the place. I could just look for an apartment there and then say "I need a car" or I can decide that I don't want a car so I'm limited to living in the flatter Rhine Valley so I can commute to work by bike. That's a choice. 

I'm not saying it's a better choice or a worse choice, just a choice, but we need to own the decisions we make and the consequences for us and for others.


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## PeteXXX (27 Jun 2022)

MrsPete found a novel way of paying more, ie over £2ppl, by accidentally filling up with posh petrol. 
'Normal' E10 is perfectly good for her Kia..


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## cougie uk (27 Jun 2022)

Chislenko said:


> I know exactly where you mean, I have not seen anyone park there either on any day of the week.
> 
> I was told by the chaps that built it that it was to be a "Park and Ride" which I presumed when they started putting yellow lines around a lot of the estate it would be for workers at the factories / units etc.
> 
> ...



Has to be said that industrial estate must have the best bike links in the country. I can't believe we used to just ride down the Welsh Road - I'd not do that for a suitcase of cash now !


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## Chislenko (27 Jun 2022)

Andy in Germany said:


> Understood, but living there would also be a choice. I''m not saying it's an immoral choice, but it's still a choice.



Aye but Andy it was a choice made when the only electric car was a Sinclair C5 🙂


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## MrGrumpy (27 Jun 2022)

Being a nosey so and so and only fair to research charge points. There are a few round about my home , half are out of order . Just checked at work as well and plenty round about but again quite a few out of order ! Not exactly filled with confidence!! App I used was Zap Map . However I’m sure you could probably get charged up . £1.60 connection fee and 15p per Kw ? Dunno if that’s good or bad ? Others were 30p per Kw minimum charge cost of a quid , no connection charge from what I could see on those ones.


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## deptfordmarmoset (27 Jun 2022)

Andy in Germany said:


> Understood, but living there would also be a choice. I''m not saying it's an immoral choice, but it's still a choice.
> 
> For example, I'd really like to live in the Black Forest, which is about 5km from here, but it is impractical with a bike because of the hilly nature of the place. I could just look for an apartment there and then say "I need a car" or I can decide that I don't want a car so I'm limited to living in the flatter Rhine Valley so I can commute to work by bike. That's a choice.
> 
> I'm not saying it's a better choice or a worse choice, just a choice, but we need to own the decisions we make and the consequences for us and for others.



That sounds like a good reason to buy an e-bike. Or is it steep icy hills that would be the problem?


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## chris-suffolk (27 Jun 2022)

cougie uk said:


> That's not what I said.
> 
> There's a very nice Ferrari parked round here that Google tells me costs over 200k.
> I guess he's not that bothered about his petrol bill somehow.



No - you said that "There's plenty of EVs that are cheaper than petrol cars."

I just asked you to come with some, any, ONE, example of a car that's as cheap or cheaper in EV guise vs petrol. It's all very well comparing a 200k Ferrari against EV cars, you know as well as I do that that's just fudging the issue. By the way the Lotus Evija, an EV super car, is a mere $2.8 million, but that's not helpful either.

So, I'll ask again, just name ONE car (same spec and model) where the EV verison is cheaper than the ICE one. Just ONE, how hard can that be?


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## gzoom (27 Jun 2022)

Chislenko said:


> So I do resent the chastening "no facts" parts of your post when I did specifically state that in our situation an EV was not an option for US!



Maybe I was too harsh with the 'facts' bit but the reality if local village in Portugal doesn't have EV chargers is all the more reason for local residents to push the public infrastructure to do more, in Portugal EV + solar would be no-brainer year round. Even here in not so sunny England, this month my electricity bill for the house+charging the car is going to be nothing more than standing charge.







In France there are literally chargers in every village, and they all work. 






As for getting to Faro for examples, its not hard at all in any EV, and 3hrs of stops over 24hrs of driving seems pretty reasonable, unless your really believe you can drive non stop for 1000 miles.


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## cougie uk (27 Jun 2022)

chris-suffolk said:


> No - you said that "There's plenty of EVs that are cheaper than petrol cars."
> 
> I just asked you to come with some, any, ONE, example of a car that's as cheap or cheaper in EV guise vs petrol. It's all very well comparing a 200k Ferrari against EV cars, you know as well as I do that that's just fudging the issue. By the way the Lotus Evija, an EV super car, is a mere $2.8 million, but that's not helpful either.
> 
> So, I'll ask again, just name ONE car (same spec and model) where the EV verison is cheaper than the ICE one. Just ONE, how hard can that be?



Calm down Chris. 

I didn't say there are plenty of EVs that are cheaper than their petrol equivalents. 

Because there aren't. Everyone knows that. 

There are plenty of EVs that are cheaper than petrol cars though. Which is what I said.


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## Chislenko (27 Jun 2022)

gzoom said:


> Maybe I was too harsh with the 'facts' bit but the reality if local village in Portugal doesn't have EV chargers is all the more reason for local residents to push the public infrastructure to do more, in Portugal EV + solar would be no-brainer year round. Even here in not so sunny England, this month my electricity bill for the house+charging the car is going to be nothing more than standing charge.
> 
> View attachment 650751
> 
> ...




If I go the France route (which I used to and yes once did it in one hit!!) door to door is 1700 mile each way.

Nowadays we go down to Plymouth - Santander which knocks the mileage down to circa 1050 mile.

After 23 hours on the boat I do the remaining 725 in one hit with maybe a coffee stop. My Euro 6 diesel has a tank capacity of circa 900 miles so don't need to stop for fuel.

Generally, it is the range that stops me being interested in EV at present, if and when one of the affordable EV's can do 500 mile on a charge then that would be the time I would look at them. 

I hope that development over the next few years will get us to that point, just like ICE cars, my first Vauxhall Viva (58 bhp) did circa 30 mpg, my current diesel (180 bhp) does circa 58 mpg. 

So for me it is all about how soon they can produce an EV that suits my needs.

But I think we should also remember that many people who live in Britain (and other countries) are shackled by where they live, apartment blocks, high rise, terraced streets where they can't get outside their own house so for me an EV is still something for the people who are perhaps a bit more fortunate with their living circumstances / financial status.

However, history repeats itself and I feel sure the early owners of ICE cars were the "better off"


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## gzoom (27 Jun 2022)

chris-suffolk said:


> So, I'll ask again, just name ONE car (same spec and model) where the EV verison is cheaper than the ICE one. Just ONE, how hard can that be?



Combustion cars that have been 'turned' into EV rarely make good EVs, but compare 'similar' combustion cars with EVs, especially in the performance/higher end of the market and EVs make much more sense than combustion cars. The latest M3 Touring costs pretty much the same as a Taycan estate. The difference is one drinks Superunleaded at 25mpg, the other you can refuel from solar PV on the house for free. This is before you add in the M-car maintenance costs versus any EV which costs very little to keep on the road.











When I bought our EV, I priced up an equivalent combustion version, the purchase cost was near identical. 






The difference now though is the combustion car would currently cost £300+ to refuel very 1000 miles, where as I've not had to pay for any fuel in the EV for the last month. EV costs are still the main barrier, but for the 'performance' sector am not sure why anyone would buy a combustion car over an EV?


----------



## gzoom (27 Jun 2022)

Chislenko said:


> Nowadays we go down to Plymouth - Santander which knocks the mileage down to circa 1050 mile.
> 
> After 23 hours on the boat I do the remaining 725 in one hit with maybe a coffee stop. My Euro 6 diesel has a tank capacity of circa 900 miles so don't need to stop for fuel.



We are probably going do the Plymouth to Santander route next year......but driving 725 miles non stop, that what 7hrs+ of driving even if you averaged 100mph, no thank you. I love driving, but that isn't the kind of trip I want to do with no stops .

This is our road trip coming up in our EV in 2 weeks, I suspect you will want to do that drive in one hit, none stop, no sleep either . But for us we are breaking it up over 3 weeks to enjoy the destination. Cannot wait, might even take the bike on the back .


----------



## cougie uk (27 Jun 2022)

Chislenko said:


> If I go the France route (which I used to and yes once did it in one hit!!) door to door is 1700 mile each way.
> 
> Nowadays we go down to Plymouth - Santander which knocks the mileage down to circa 1050 mile.
> 
> ...



The thing is - cars have to be parked somewhere. It can't be that hard to equip a Car park with some slow chargers - it's just an electric socket and then some kind of contactless payment thing for the electric used. 
Once people twig that they can make cash off of people charging then they'll be built - either where people overnight park or at work places. 

There's a super charger hub to be built a few miles from me that's having about a dozen chargers and a cafe and showroom etc.


----------



## Chislenko (27 Jun 2022)

gzoom said:


> We are probably going do the Plymouth to Santander route next year......but driving 725 miles non stop, that what 7hrs+ of driving even if you averaged 100mph, no thank you. I love driving, but that isn't the kind of trip I want to do with no stops .
> 
> This is our road trip coming up in our EV in 2 weeks, I suspect you will want to do that drive in one hit, none stop, no sleep either . But for us we are breaking it up over 3 weeks to enjoy the destination. Cannot wait, might even take the bike on the back .
> 
> View attachment 650761



Enjoy your trip.

The 725 is not bad, automatic car, set the cruise at 120kph, the motorway down the west of Spain is empty, bit of congestion at Seville and that's it.


----------



## Chislenko (27 Jun 2022)

cougie uk said:


> The thing is - cars have to be parked somewhere. It can't be that hard to equip a Car park with some slow chargers - it's just an electric socket and then some kind of contactless payment thing for the electric used.
> Once people twig that they can make cash off of people charging then they'll be built - either where people overnight park or at work places.
> 
> There's a super charger hub to be built a few miles from me that's having about a dozen chargers and a cafe and showroom etc.



Aye but you are on the affluent Wirral, what about the poor people in the high rise blocks in Blacon?

Cougie. Just messing mate don't be offended.


----------



## cougie uk (27 Jun 2022)

Chislenko said:


> Aye but you are on the affluent Wirral, what about the poor people in the high rise blocks in Blacon?
> 
> Cougie. Just messing mate don't be offended.



Blacon have the bike path - who needs cars ?


----------



## Andy in Germany (28 Jun 2022)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> That sounds like a good reason to buy an e-bike. Or is it steep icy hills that would be the problem?



Ice would indeed be an issue. Also shopping. There are a couple of valleys going into the hills but none within an hours cycling.


----------



## biggs682 (28 Jun 2022)

195.9 for the e5 fuel last night at local Morrison's


----------



## Phaeton (28 Jun 2022)

Used £20 of fuel today to go about 10 miles, one of the lines onto the filter came loose, was leaving a trail of fuel behind me


----------



## chris-suffolk (28 Jun 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Calm down Chris.
> 
> I didn't say there are plenty of EVs that are cheaper than their petrol equivalents.
> 
> ...



There are plenty of EV cars more expensive than petrol too !


----------



## Chislenko (28 Jun 2022)

I don't own an EV.

Well it makes a change from

I don't own a TV.


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## Phaeton (28 Jun 2022)

Chislenko said:


> I don't own an EV.



Neither do I, but I would like to , I would also like to have solar panels on my house roof, along with a storage battery but I can't afford those either, without getting political  because it seems to me to be all the parties are just as bad but there is something currently wrong with the system. We allow people/companies not to pay their fair share of tax etc. which could be used for the benefit of a lot more people.


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## Andy in Germany (28 Jun 2022)

Chislenko said:


> I don't own an EV.
> 
> Well it makes a change from
> 
> I don't own a TV.



I see your lack of EV and raise you by not owning an EV or a TV.

So there.


----------



## simongt (28 Jun 2022)

classic33 said:


> How many kilometres to the litre though?


As I don't measure my driving distance in kilometres, no point in that figure. Miles to the litre is all I need to know. 
Simple eh Peeps - ?


----------



## classic33 (28 Jun 2022)

simongt said:


> As I don't measure my driving distance in kilometres, no point in that figure. Miles to the litre is all I need to know.
> Simple eh Peeps - ?


You still keep the imperial mindset then?


----------



## simongt (28 Jun 2022)

classic33 said:


> You still keep the imperial mindset then?


Er, no. As the UK still measures road distance in miles, but sell fuels in litres, I have to adjust my metric mindset to deal with that. 
Interesting that in my ancestral home of Eire, road distances were converted to kilometres in 2005 with little problem.
Just sayin' - !


----------



## classic33 (28 Jun 2022)

simongt said:


> Er, no. As the UK still measures road distance in miles, but sell fuels in litres, I have to adjust my metric mindset to deal with that.
> Interesting that in my ancestral home of Eire, road distances were converted to kilometres in 2005 with little problem.
> Just sayin' - !


Speed limits were changed to kilometres, distance has always been given in kilometres. The reason being an Irish Mile* is 2240 yards, an English Mile has only 1760 yards.

* The oft quoted "Country Mile".


----------



## gbb (10 Jul 2022)

Yay, E10 dropped 4p per litre yesterday, now 1.89.9.

On the whiskey front, i was given a litre of Jack Daniels as thanks for helping someone. £32 ltr....puts petrol prices in perspective.


----------



## jowwy (10 Jul 2022)

202.9 for diesel in merthyr today…..100yds away in asda it was 195.9


----------



## gbb (13 Jul 2022)

15 mile drive yesterday on E10, mostly motorway but a few miles of normal roads... 






Not bad at all for a 2ltr petrol, mostly 60mph, temps outside help a lot .
A lot of cars missing on the roads IMO and lots that have slowed diwn a bit.


----------



## Phaeton (13 Jul 2022)

gbb said:


> Not bad at all for a 2ltr petrol, mostly 60mph, temps outside help a lot .
> A lot of cars missing on the roads IMO and lots that have slowed diwn a bit.



Outside temperatures will make your figures worse, the colder the fuel the denser it is, the more bang you get for your bucks, totally impractical but you should always fill up when it's as cold as possible.

But good if cars are slowing down, it's not something I've seen in the village, still getting overtaken when doing 30mph in the 30mph zone.


----------



## Andy in Germany (13 Jul 2022)

I looked at a petrol station yesterday, they were selling diesel at 1.88 €/Ltr which is about GBP 1.60. No idea if that's a lot as I have nothing to compare it to.


----------



## deptfordmarmoset (13 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Outside temperatures will make your figures worse, the colder the fuel the denser it is, the more bang you get for your bucks, totally impractical but you should always fill up when it's as cold as possible.
> 
> But good if cars are slowing down, it's not something I've seen in the village, still getting overtaken when doing 30mph in the 30mph zone.


I get better figures when it's warm, even when using air con. (I never use air con on my own but I've been taxiing people around while it's been hot and I've been keeping an eye on how it affects fuel consumption.)


----------



## vickster (13 Jul 2022)

Andy in Germany said:


> I looked at a petrol station yesterday, they were selling diesel at 1.88 €/Ltr which is about GBP 1.60. No idea if that's a lot as I have nothing to compare it to.



Much less than the UK, it’s about £2 a litre currently


----------



## gbb (13 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Outside temperatures will make your figures worse, the colder the fuel the denser it is, the more bang you get for your bucks, totally impractical but you should always fill up when it's as cold as possible.
> 
> But good if cars are slowing down, it's not something I've seen in the village, still getting overtaken when doing 30mph in the 30mph zone.



Nah, every summer my fuel consumption improves, winter it worsens. Come winter, I'll be struggling to get 50mpg on the same run. Ive been doing the same run for 5 years, cold temps really hit consumption. 
The fuel density sounds right, I've heard that but reality for me is a great deal more mpg in higher temps.


----------



## fossyant (13 Jul 2022)

Andy in Germany said:


> I looked at a petrol station yesterday, they were selling diesel at 1.88 €/Ltr which is about GBP 1.60. No idea if that's a lot as I have nothing to compare it to.



Thats cheap compared to UK as we are still near GBP £2 for smelly diesel


----------



## fossyant (13 Jul 2022)

Beat to it by Vickster...


----------



## fossyant (13 Jul 2022)

Watch out, watch out, some smug leccy car driver will be along in a moment.

Me, however, cycled to work today. Zero cost.👅


----------



## Illaveago (13 Jul 2022)

Andy in Germany said:


> I looked at a petrol station yesterday, they were selling diesel at 1.88 €/Ltr which is about GBP 1.60. No idea if that's a lot as I have nothing to compare it to.



Better pop over there and fill up .


----------



## Phaeton (13 Jul 2022)

fossyant said:


> Me, however, cycled to work today. Zero cost.👅



I came out of my house & now working in the gazebo at the bottom of the garden, I took the short route, only did 5 miles instead of the 10 I sometimes do.


----------



## Phaeton (13 Jul 2022)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> I get better figures when it's warm, even when using air con. (I never use air con on my own but I've been taxiing people around while it's been hot and I've been keeping an eye on how it affects fuel consumption.)





gbb said:


> Nah, every summer my fuel consumption improves, winter it worsens. Come winter, I'll be struggling to get 50mpg on the same run. Ive been doing the same run for 5 years, cold temps really hit consumption.
> The fuel density sounds right, I've heard that but reality for me is a great deal more mpg in higher temps.


As I understand it/was advised the colder the air the better the bang & less fuel used, hence why sports cars try to get cold air into the throttle body, also fuel is denser the colder it gets. Potentially you get worse fuel in winter due to having to warm the engine up, also the air is denser so maybe it takes more to push through it, unfortunately I'm not a scientist just relating what I have been told which may or may not be brolacs.


----------



## DCLane (13 Jul 2022)

fossyant said:


> Watch out, watch out, some smug leccy car driver will be along in a moment.
> 
> Me, however, cycled to work today. Zero cost.👅



Smug leccy driver (or, hybrid) = me 

But I _did_ cycle to work today. Mainly because a) my work's car park is shut and b) with bike racks on the roof it won't fit.

But I bought a croissant with my coffee for the re-sit drop-in session that no-one's attended so far. At a discount, so 60p, but not quite a 'free' commute.


----------



## vickster (13 Jul 2022)

DCLane said:


> Smug leccy driver (or, hybrid) = me
> 
> But I _did_ cycle to work today. Mainly because a) my work's car park is shut and b) with bike racks on the roof it won't fit.
> 
> But I bought a croissant with my coffee for the re-sit drop-in session that no-one's attended so far. At a discount, so 60p, but not quite a 'free' commute.



And you won the car in a competition so should be super smug (the smug leccy (aka Tesla) car drivers will however tell you that hybrids are crap )


----------



## DCLane (13 Jul 2022)

@vickster - I valued it yesterday just to see. WeBuyAnyCar, the sister company of Cinch, offered me £32,000 to buy back the £30,000 car they gave me in April


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## Andy in Germany (13 Jul 2022)

fossyant said:


> Watch out, watch out, some smug leccy car driver will be along in a moment.
> 
> Me, however, cycled to work today. Zero cost.👅



I have to admit I only looked because of this thread, otherwise I wouldn't have a clue.



Illaveago said:


> Better pop over there and fill up .



I don't know how much variation there is within Germany. As I understand it, French drivers are filling up in the border towns, so it looks like we're still cheaper.

Many garages in this region are independent, which may have an effect.


----------



## jowwy (13 Jul 2022)

fossyant said:


> Thats cheap compared to UK as we are still near GBP £2 for smelly diesel



202.9 near me at the moment for diesel…….


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## fossyant (13 Jul 2022)

With my recent cycling, we have an 'app' at work that rewards 'activity'. I just link it to strava. I've enough 'points' now to get two free coffee's ! Win win.


----------



## gbb (13 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> As I understand it/was advised the colder the air the better the bang & less fuel used, hence why sports cars try to get cold air into the throttle body, also fuel is denser the colder it gets. Potentially you get worse fuel in winter due to having to warm the engine up, also the air is denser so maybe it takes more to push through it, unfortunately I'm not a scientist just relating what I have been told which may or may not be brolacs.



Id be hazarding a guess but the idea colder air and fuel is more dense therefore better but...the advantage of hotter weather allowing the engine to work more efficiently and heat up quicker possibly outweighs it.
All guesswork of course...


----------



## gbb (16 Jul 2022)

I noticed an invoice on goods that arrived at work the other day, a 10% fuel surcharge.


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## PeteXXX (16 Jul 2022)

gbb said:


> I noticed an invoice on goods that arrived at work the other day, a 10% fuel surcharge.



Cheeky!


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## gbb (16 Jul 2022)

gbb said:


> I noticed an invoice on goods that arrived at work the other day, a 10% fuel surcharge.





PeteXXX said:


> Cheeky!


In a way, yes. But this is a small independant distributor who will no doubt have seen the running costs, electric, gas and fuel skyrocket. As a middleman, theyre perhaps not making much profit on an item anyway...i could imagine small businesses really feeling it if theyre working on low margins.


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## Phaeton (30 Jul 2022)

Son has just sent me a message from Cornwall saying he's just paid £1.90 a litre for diesel & how sad it is that he's happy about it


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## gbb (30 Jul 2022)

The next stage will be...what will prices creep back down to. I don't think we will see £1.50 ltr again, maybe £1.70 for E10 would seem a result right now .
Same with everything, unfortunately when there's been a spike in inflation, it never returns back to the old norm.


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## Mike_P (30 Jul 2022)

E10 was 172.9 yesterday at the local Asda, first time in a couple of weeks they have been cheaper than a Texaco or more recently an Esso.


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## Jenkins (30 Jul 2022)

Prices round here have eased off a whole 2 or 3 pence per litre over the past week.


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## vickster (1 Aug 2022)

I paid 181.9 for super UL E5 at Sainsburys on Saturday, E10 was 174.9, so certainly better than the 186.9 / 193.9+ of recent weeks!!


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## Phaeton (1 Aug 2022)

vickster said:


> I paid 181.9 for super UL E5 at Sainsburys on Saturday, E10 was 174.9, so certainly better than the 186.9 / 193.9+ of recent weeks!!



Being nosey, but I thought you had a post 2003 Skoda? It should be okay with E10


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## vickster (1 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Being nosey, but I thought you had a post 2003 Skoda? It should be okay with E10



It's a VRS...meant to have super according to the filler cap (97+ RON) but I have been told I can use standard from time to time if needed. It runs better and more economically with super IME.

I use so little petrol, the cost difference isn't a big deal, but I'll check with the dealer next time it's serviced.
I'll happily admit I know very little about such stuff, just doing what I have done for the last 9 years of ownership!


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## Mike_P (1 Aug 2022)

Mike_P said:


> E10 was 172.9 yesterday at the local Asda, first time in a couple of weeks they have been cheaper than a Texaco or more recently an Esso.



Down a smidge more to 172.7 yesterday so the car only managed to drink £63 worth


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## Phaeton (9 Aug 2022)

We filled the wife's car up with diesel at the beginning of last month & still have over 1/4 tank left so not been really looking at fuel prices over the past couple of weeks. I went to get some roofing tiles in the Shogun yesterday I bought 20 last year (I think) they cost me £22, cost me £36 yesterday, was complaining to the lad who served me at the builders supply about the increase. He mentioned that from where he works he can see the Asda supermarket fuel price & how funny it was he was quite excited it had come down to £182.9 for Diesel & £178.9 for Petrol.


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## PeteXXX (9 Aug 2022)

Shell garage on the A43 Hannington crossroads (Northampton to Kettering) 169.7 ppl


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## vickster (9 Aug 2022)

171.9 local to me for UL yesterday (down from 174.9 last week)


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## Phaeton (9 Aug 2022)

Still looks like the East Midlands are being screwed over


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## Jenkins (9 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Still looks like the East Midlands are being screwed over



Along with East Angla - diesel only just dropped down to around £1.85 - £1.90 per litre with petrol generally up to 10p cheaper around here


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## Mike_P (14 Aug 2022)

Just on TV (Look North) the filling station in Hawes is run by a local not for profit organisation and is charging £1.58 for E10 and £1.68 for diesel.


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## gbb (15 Aug 2022)

Jenkins said:


> Along with East Angla - diesel only just dropped down to around £1.85 - £1.90 per litre with petrol generally up to 10p cheaper around here



Yup, my local is sitting at £1.74 ltr E10.
Just back from the South West, prices seem pretty steep there too...but there were quite large local variations, anything from £1.71 to £1.78 ltr.

An old friend of ours in Northern Ireland often posts up forecourt prices, E10 is below £1.60 ltr i believe, they have been dropping there significantly and regularly.


----------



## Illaveago (15 Aug 2022)

Came up the Fosse Way as far as Halford and kept looking at prices on the way . The dearest price we saw was £1.90 for E10.


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## Phaeton (15 Aug 2022)

Illaveago said:


> Came up the Fosse Way as far as Halford and kept looking at prices on the way . The dearest price we saw was £1.90 for E10.



We came back from a funeral the other day & the wife said she fancied a whippy ice cream, no idea if they are linked or even relevant, but the only place we could think of was a McD's for a flurry, we thought there was one at Blyth Services on the A1, there wasn't but the fuel was £2.07p


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## gbb (15 Aug 2022)

gbb said:


> Yup, my local is sitting at £1.74 ltr E10.
> Just back from the South West, prices seem pretty steep there too...but there were quite large local variations, anything from £1.71 to £1.78 ltr.
> 
> An old friend of ours in Northern Ireland often posts up forecourt prices, E10 is below £1.60 ltr i believe, they have been dropping there significantly and regularly.



Couple corrections...
My local is actually £1.75 ltr and the prices in NI are headed towards £1.60.

Just filled up at Sainsburys, not my normal one but just passing, £1.71...seems like a win in these weird days.


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## jowwy (16 Aug 2022)

£1.75.9 for diesel locally here...


----------



## icowden (16 Aug 2022)

jowwy said:


> £1.75.9 for diesel locally here...



That was the best bit about coming back from holiday. Diesel seems to have gone down 30p per litre in price!!


----------



## Illaveago (17 Aug 2022)

I just filled up with E10 for £1.66 ltr BP.


----------



## vickster (17 Aug 2022)

I paid 175.9 for Super UL at Sainsbury's Cobham last night (about 6p less than last time I put it in)


----------



## GilesM (17 Aug 2022)

Mike_P said:


> Just on TV (Look North) the filling station in Hawes is run by a local not for profit organisation and is charging £1.58 for E10 and £1.68 for diesel.



I drove through Hawes on Thursday, was impressed with the price, unsurprisingly there was a bit of a queue.


----------



## Chislenko (17 Aug 2022)

Local Costco today 

UL. 157.9
Diesel. 171.7


----------



## gbb (20 Aug 2022)

There certainly are fairly big regional variations...my local has dropped again to £1.69 for E10..


----------



## Jenkins (20 Aug 2022)

While the prices seem to be holding stable or dropping slightly locally, my benchmark station (run by the Co-Op on High Road West, Felixstowe) has just put diesel back *UP* by 2p/litre to £1.889 per litre


----------



## PeteXXX (27 Aug 2022)

@biggs682 Red House 163.7 ppl


----------



## Chislenko (30 Aug 2022)

The petrol / diesel disparity appears to be getting wider.

Passed a fuel station in Whitchurch tonight 

Petrol.....154.7
Diesel.....183.9.

Just shy of 30p a litre extra for diesel!!


----------



## PeteXXX (30 Aug 2022)

E10 still @ 199.9 ppl on the motorways but, strangely, the Shell garage by J15 is about 174.9 I think. That's cheaper than rip-off Tesco a few miles up the road!


----------



## cyberknight (30 Aug 2022)

169.9 if you shop around for e10 in my locale


----------



## Richard A Thackeray (30 Aug 2022)

Tuesday 30th

I thought pumps, even ‘attendant activated’ only went up to £100?!

_BSB Motors_
Altofts Road
Normanton
Wakefield

NO!!!!!!!!
It wasn't after I filled up, it was the previous users total








https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/363055


----------



## gbb (7 Sep 2022)

Yay, just got E10 petrol for £1.63 litre, that's 6p litre cheaper than almost all of its local competitors.


----------



## cyberknight (7 Sep 2022)

cheapest i have seen it is 167.9 for e10


----------



## gbb (22 Sep 2022)

gbb said:


> Yay, just got E10 petrol for £1.63 litre, that's 6p litre cheaper than almost all of its local competitors.



And two weeks later, same garage now £1.57 litre. Funny how you never think about the .9p, its better thinking 1.57 than 1.58.


----------



## PeteXXX (22 Sep 2022)

Tesco Mereway Hamtun.. 159.9 ppl
Not sure about the Weston Favell Tesco until I ride past in the morning.


----------



## cyberknight (22 Sep 2022)

still 169.9 at the supermarkets here


----------



## deptfordmarmoset (22 Sep 2022)

cyberknight said:


> still 169.9 at the supermarkets here



157.9p at the local Sainsburys this afternoon. That's a big difference in supermarket price.


----------



## Jenkins (22 Sep 2022)

Jenkins said:


> While the prices seem to be holding stable or dropping slightly locally, my benchmark station (run by the Co-Op on High Road West, Felixstowe) has just put diesel back *UP* by 2p/litre to £1.889 per litre


This same station has only reduced the diesel price by 3p per litre in the past month. Unusually it is now more expensive than the Shell station by the Orwell Bridge (normally the most expensive in the area), while a sister Co-Op run station just off the A14 outside Ipswich is £1.819 per litre and the joint cheapest in the area.


----------



## Jenkins (28 Oct 2022)

Sudden jump in prices locally - another 8p per litre on diesel in the past week, so £1.919 per litre at the Co-Op station today. Even the Applegreen cheapie in Ipswich had upped theirs to £1.869 per litre when I went past midweek.

Similar increase in petrol as well.


----------



## deptfordmarmoset (28 Oct 2022)

Jenkins said:


> Sudden jump in prices locally - another 8p per litre on diesel in the past week, so £1.919 per litre at the Co-Op station today. Even the Applegreen cheapie in Ipswich had upped theirs to £1.869 per litre when I went past midweek.
> 
> Similar increase in petrol as well.


I wonder whether it's the time lag for the Truss trough in the Pound/Dollar rate. Petrol trades in dollars, so if the fuel was bought then, it would be more expensive. If that's what's going on, it should be a temporary blip. The Pound has recovered since she went.


----------



## Jenkins (28 Oct 2022)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> I wonder whether it's the time lag for the Truss trough in the Pound/Dollar rate. Petrol trades in dollars, so if the fuel was bought then, it would be more expensive. If that's what's going on, it should be a temporary blip. The Pound has recovered since she went.



It's got to be something like that as the oil prices have stabilsed recently and the fuel price at the Co-Op has been the same since my last post on the 22nd Sept. Let's see if the price comes back down during November/December.


----------



## Chislenko (29 Oct 2022)

I thought I read somewhere that OPEC had cut production to inflate prices.


----------



## Mike_P (29 Oct 2022)

The OPEC cut starts in November so any improvement in the £ will no doubt be of little effect.


----------



## PeteXXX (11 Nov 2022)

@biggs682 Any idea what E10 is at Red House at the mo?


----------



## biggs682 (11 Nov 2022)

PeteXXX said:


> @biggs682 Any idea what E10 is at Red House at the mo?



My app tells me £1.587 but unsure if that's e5 or e10


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## PeteXXX (11 Nov 2022)

biggs682 said:


> My app tells me £1.587 but unsure if that's e5 or e10



Ta. I'm not going past there during the day at the mo and they don't display prices when they're shut!


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## biggs682 (11 Nov 2022)

PeteXXX said:


> Ta. I'm not going past there during the day at the mo and they don't display prices when they're shut!



That's very true price is only up when open


----------



## Grant Fondo (11 Nov 2022)

What's with the big difference in petrol v diesel prices these days? At some point the mpg element will make petrol the better option but guess we are not there yet?


----------



## Phaeton (11 Nov 2022)

Grant Fondo said:


> What's with the big difference in petrol v diesel prices these days? At some point the mpg element will make petrol the better option but guess we are not there yet?



Around 10% 15p(ish) not sure what a Rav4 with the 2L petrol will do MPG but I can't see it being 45MPG which it would have to do to be cheaper than pur 2.3 Diesel, that will do 55MPG & even 50MPG around the village going to see to the horses.


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## glasgowcyclist (11 Nov 2022)

My local Morrisons is 160p for unleaded and 182p for diesel.


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## biggs682 (24 Nov 2022)

153.7 last night for normal petrol at the Red House garage which is about 7p per litre cheaper than supermarkets locally


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## PeteXXX (24 Nov 2022)

biggs682 said:


> 153.7 last night for normal petrol at the Red House garage which is about 7p per litre cheaper than supermarkets locally



It was 156 or 157 ppl last Saturday so they're still going in the right direction 👍


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## biggs682 (24 Nov 2022)

PeteXXX said:


> It was 156 or 157 ppl last Saturday so they're still going in the right direction 👍



We were en route to Numpton so couldn't refuse a tank full


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## cyberknight (24 Nov 2022)

still 162.9 is the cheapest locally for e10 around here


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## Chislenko (28 Nov 2022)

Costco Chester / Ellesmere Port, diesel now down to 166.9. The petrol station half a mile away 188.9. Some difference!

Needless to say I filled up at Costco.


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## GilesM (1 Dec 2022)

Moffat has two garages with E10 under £1.54.


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## biggs682 (3 Dec 2022)

Red House garage 1.497 @PeteXXX


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## PeteXXX (3 Dec 2022)

biggs682 said:


> Red House garage 1.497 @PeteXXX



 I won't need fuel for another couple of weeks but I'll definitely be going that way to work to fill up.. Ta 👍


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## PeteXXX (3 Dec 2022)

159.9 @ Morrisons. Still 171.9 on the A14 by the cranes


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## biggs682 (3 Dec 2022)

PeteXXX said:


> 159.9 @ Morrisons. Still 171.9 on the A14 by the cranes



Ouch Red House for me later on


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## gbb (3 Dec 2022)

E10, £1.57 earlier this week, dropping to £1.54 yesterday, certainly not the lowest in town but not bad.

Old friend of ours lives in N Ireland, he often posts photos of fuel prices there, consistently 10 to 20p litre lower. I wonder why that is ?


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## oldwheels (3 Dec 2022)

My last diesel refill two weeks ago was 198.6p per litre. We are usually 10p more than mainland prices in Oban Tesco.


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## gbb (12 Dec 2022)

Just put £50 in , E5, £1.68 ltr
E10 currently £1.50 ltr so an extra 18p.
That equates to 40 miles ish less on £50s worth.

Interestingly, I have been running E10 while fuel prices were high, generally been getting 50/52mpg overall before the temps really dipped.
This last week on E5, only just managed 50 mpg but temps have been much lower.

Early on I was seriously sceptical that using E10 would only mean sacrificing a few mpg but my general impression now seems it makes a slight difference, but I haven't seen any great drop in mpg using E10 against E5.


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## PeteXXX (15 Dec 2022)

@biggs682 What say the swing-o-meter at Red House at the moment? 🤔


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## biggs682 (15 Dec 2022)

PeteXXX said:


> @biggs682 What say the swing-o-meter at Red House at the moment? 🤔



Will check swmbo's app and let you know later and thanks for reminding me that I need petrol at the weekend.

Local Tesco is 150.9 and Sainsbugs is 152.9


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## biggs682 (15 Dec 2022)

Swmbo says it's 146 at redhouse @PeteXXX if I get out anytime soon I will check


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## PeteXXX (15 Dec 2022)

biggs682 said:


> Swmbo says it's 146 at redhouse @PeteXXX if I get out anytime soon I will check



Thank you to MrsB682
I'll wait until Saturday morning and fill up on the way to work instead of Morrisons when I go shopping tomorrow 👍


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## PeteXXX (17 Dec 2022)

@biggs682 144.7 ppl for E10 at Red House today 👍


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## biggs682 (17 Dec 2022)

PeteXXX said:


> @biggs682 144.7 ppl for E10 at Red House today 👍



Paid 149.9 at Morrisons as didn't fancy the drive down Hardwick lane


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