# Cost of fuel.



## gavroche (3 Mar 2022)

I just heard earlier that petrol will go up to 2 pounds a litre on Monday. I hope this is just a rumour but who knows?
If it is true, the chancellor will make billions extra on fuel duty and should reduce the tax on it then.


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## winjim (3 Mar 2022)

gavroche said:


> I just heard earlier that petrol will go up to 2 pounds a litre on Monday. I hope this is just a rumour but who knows?
> If it is true, the chancellor will make billions extra on fuel duty and should reduce the tax on it then.


Duty's a flat rate per litre isn't it? And VAT is VAT. Anyway, quite apart from the issue of climate change, there's a war on. Things are going to get expensive.


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## Cletus Van Damme (3 Mar 2022)

Wouldn't be great, whilst I'm not rich by any means, I could afford it. It's just the people on minimum wage etc in this country I feel sorry for. They were already under the cosh as it was, without much help from the Tories, that's to be expected though..


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## vickster (3 Mar 2022)

If true, isn't it down to the very high cost of oil due to the above mentioned invasion of Ukraine? Blame a certain Russian rather than the Govt maybe
If worried, fill up asap  or take the bike


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## Oldhippy (3 Mar 2022)

From a purely environmental stand point the more done to discourage journeys under five miles the better.


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## numbnuts (3 Mar 2022)

Everything that moves will go up, the poor will not survive


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## Oldhippy (3 Mar 2022)

In an ideal world the money made would go to massively improving public transport but that is unlikely sadly.


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## winjim (3 Mar 2022)

Oldhippy said:


> In an ideal world the money made would go to massively improving public transport but that is unlikely sadly.


Agree generally but if the price goes up and people buy less, doesn't the revenue from duty go down? And at what point does that get offset by the increased take from VAT?

There's a ton of reasons of course to reduce our dependence on oil. And this crisis may require government intervention of some kind. Will it lead to a reduction in oil use?


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## Ming the Merciless (3 Mar 2022)

@gavroche It is a rumour nothing more


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## glasgowcyclist (3 Mar 2022)

Diesel in Fort William is currently 163.9p/litre.


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## cougie uk (3 Mar 2022)

gavroche said:


> I just heard earlier that petrol will go up to 2 pounds a litre on Monday. I hope this is just a rumour but who knows?
> If it is true, the chancellor will make billions extra on fuel duty and should reduce the tax on it then.


Cost of driving is so low compared to public transport. 

I don't think we should go easy on drivers when OAPs will be struggling to keep their living rooms warm.


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## dave r (3 Mar 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Cost of driving is so low compared to public transport.
> 
> OAPs will be struggling to keep their living rooms warm.



And struggling with the cost of fuel for their cars.


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## gavroche (3 Mar 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> @gavroche It is a rumour nothing more


I hope you are right but nothing would surprise me at the moment. Worrying times indeed.


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## cougie uk (3 Mar 2022)

dave r said:


> And struggling with the cost of fuel for their cars.


Most of the OAPs round here do very little mileage. The cost of gas and electric is far higher than their petrol bills.


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## MrGrumpy (3 Mar 2022)

gavroche said:


> I hope you are right but nothing would surprise me at the moment. Worrying times indeed.


Bikes coming out next week. Getting my arris in gear been lazy since last year .


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## jowwy (3 Mar 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> @gavroche It is a rumour nothing more


Its not a rumour…….diesel in swansea is now 184.9 and petrol 180.9

that means it could well be £2 by monday


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## SydZ (3 Mar 2022)

I remember the outcry many years ago when petrol crossed the £2 a gallon point for the first time. I became aware because I’d just bought my first motorbike though wasn’t impacted much as it did 90+ mpg.


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## MrGrumpy (3 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> Its not a rumour…….diesel in swansea is now 184.9 and petrol 180.9
> 
> that means it could well be £2 by monday


That motorway services? Has to be !!


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## shep (3 Mar 2022)

Oldhippy said:


> From a purely environmental stand point the more done to discourage journeys under five miles the better.


Do you not get bored with spouting how much you dislike cars, we know!

Some of us need to drive for work, some sites I visit are 70 miles away and I carry all my work gear and spares so there's no alternative but drive. 

I also enjoy riding Motorcycles and running an old campervan so why should I refrain from doing that?


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## dave r (3 Mar 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Most of the OAPs round here do very little mileage. The cost of gas and electric is far higher than their petrol bills.



I was driving about 5000 miles a year until my Good Ladies mobility got that bad that she couldn't get in the car, now we split our travelling between the car and the bus.


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## gavroche (3 Mar 2022)

Mrs G keeps saying we ought to go to Devon more often. 600 miles return trip it is so my answer is : not likely as the fuel bill would be enormous, over 100 pounds . and that doesn't cover the driving around when we get there.
Somehow, I don't think she will see my point of view.


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## raleighnut (3 Mar 2022)

Food etc. prices will rise pushing up inflation

That was what the 'triple lock' on pensions was meant to mitigate..........................


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## Oldhippy (3 Mar 2022)

shep said:


> Do you not get bored with spouting how much you dislike cars, we know!
> 
> Some of us need to drive for work, some sites I visit are 70 miles away and I carry all my work gear and spares so there's no alternative but drive.
> 
> I also enjoy riding Motorcycles and running an old campervan so why should I refrain from doing that?


It is a cycling forum after all.


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## jowwy (3 Mar 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> That motorway services? Has to be !!


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## Ming the Merciless (3 Mar 2022)

People who drive for work will claim it on expenses / mileage allowance and fuel rises will be neither here nor there.


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## shep (3 Mar 2022)

Oldhippy said:


> It is a cycling forum after all.


It is, so all other topics should either be banned, not commented on or accepted that some people who like cycling also like things that you don't. 

What's your thoughts?


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## shep (3 Mar 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> People who drive for work will claim it on expenses / mileage allowance and fuel rises will be neither here nor there.


I don't claim for fuel but have a company paid card so it doesn't make any difference to me.


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## jowwy (3 Mar 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> People who drive for work will claim it on expenses / mileage allowance and fuel rises will be neither here nor there.


What people who dont drive for work, but commute???

for reference, the last time i drove to the office was march 2020 and it was 118.9 litre for diesel. Im glad i now work from home, as the station i fill up at is now 154.9 for diesel


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## Oldhippy (3 Mar 2022)

shep said:


> It is, so all other topics should either be banned, not commented on or accepted that some people who like cycling also like things that you don't.
> 
> What's your thoughts?


For me personally I will comment on cycle stuff and anything that potentially makes more people aware of the lunacy of endless car growth at the expense of the world my child has to grow up in. We all have a responsibility for the planet we live on in my opinion.


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## shep (3 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> What people who dont drive for work, but commute???


They'll be paying more then?


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## shep (3 Mar 2022)

Oldhippy said:


> For me personally I will comment on cycle stuff and anything that potentially makes more people aware of the lunacy of endless car growth at the expense of the world my child has to grow up in. We all have a responsibility for the planet we live on in my opinion.


I admire you're stance but lots of people also like to spend their hard earned on things that they enjoy and if that happens to be old fashioned gas guzzling motors then that's their choice, so like you, I'll be commenting where I see fit. 

One man's lunacy is another man's pleasure. 👍


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## Ming the Merciless (3 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> What people who dont drive for work, but commute???
> 
> for reference, the last time i drove to the office was march 2020 and it was 118.9 litre for diesel. Im glad i now work from home, as the station i fill up at is now 154.9 for diesel



If people choose to drive to work, it will cost them more. Pretty simple.


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## shep (3 Mar 2022)

As a side note, I assume you have a mobile phone?

I work in the mobile telecoms industry and the heat generated by a basic BTS is unreal, to a point heat extraction units are installed in many cabs.

Before people get all righteous about cars just give a thought to the power required to run a Mobile phone network.


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## jowwy (3 Mar 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> If people choose to drive to work, it will cost them more. Pretty simple.


Some people have no choice but too drive……..


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## dave r (3 Mar 2022)

raleighnut said:


> Food etc. prices will rise pushing up inflation
> 
> That was what the 'triple lock' on pensions was meant to mitigate..........................



You didn't expect that to be honoured did you?


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## shep (3 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> Some people have no choice but too drive……..


I suppose if some have been at home for the last 2 yrs they've saved a few bob there?

Swings and roundabouts I guess.


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## jowwy (3 Mar 2022)

shep said:


> I suppose if some have been at home for the last 2 yrs they've saved a few bob there?
> 
> Swings and roundabouts I guess.


Not really…….i still have to pay extra electric, gas, also drinks are free at work, but not at home

but not everyone has been working from home for two years, im just lucky my bosses dont need me to come to an office just to look over my shoulder and keep an eye one me.


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## Smokin Joe (3 Mar 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> People who drive for work will claim it on expenses / mileage allowance and fuel rises will be neither here nor there.


Try being self employed and having to pay for your own fuel.


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## shep (3 Mar 2022)

Smokin Joe said:


> Try being self employed and having to pay for your own fuel.


Yes but you lads are on £100 per hr to make up for it............





I'm joking as I'm sure you're aware, I was self employed for a few years and if business is good then happy days but if slack not so good.


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## Cerdic (3 Mar 2022)

My wife doesn’t have much choice.

She is a teacher. Her school is 22 miles away. There is no bus. The nearest train station to us is a 20 minute walk. The nearest train station to the school is a 40 minute walk. Even without the walk, public transport would be impossible most days as she cannot physically carry all the exercise books, laptop, assorted gubbins in one go!

So, car it is then.

Oh, and she didn’t have any time off or working from home during ‘the covid’. So no savings there.

Its very easy to say ‘people should do this, that, or the other’ but things ain’t that simple. ’Course, if you dont want your kids educated…


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## Ming the Merciless (3 Mar 2022)

Smokin Joe said:


> Try being self employed and having to pay for your own fuel.



I‘m sure you’ll be claiming as a business expense for tax purposes, and charging customers accordingly.


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## Ming the Merciless (3 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> Some people have no choice but too drive……..



We all have choice, even if that choice involving moving so you can get a local job.


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## shep (3 Mar 2022)

Who gives a fook who does what anyway?

No-one should need justify why they drive to work or not to a bunch of nobody's on the Internet.


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## Smokin Joe (3 Mar 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> I‘m sure you’ll be claiming as a business expense for tax purposes, and charging customers accordingly.


It is not always possible to pass the full increased costs onto customers, they will simply stop using your services.


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## Brandane (3 Mar 2022)

shep said:


> Who gives a fook who does what anyway?
> 
> No-one should need justify why they drive to work or not to a bunch of nobody's on the Internet.


Hey grumpy, have you stolen my log-in? .
I should add, who gives a fook when some madman is quite possibly going to destroy our way of life? Oops veering towards politics now, but my new attitude is fook everything. We might not be able to do what we want to do for much longer, so make hay while the sun shines. And if driving floats your boat, or in my case riding a motorbike that burns as much unleaded as most modern cars, then fill yer boots. Climate change might soon be the least of our problems.


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## vickster (3 Mar 2022)

Oldhippy said:


> It is a cycling forum after all.


This is the motoring section though if you’d not noticed, so threads will be discussing motorised vehicles not bicycles.
There’s a whole forum to discuss the politics of car, oil use, poor public transport provision and so on where you can fill your boots rather than your car


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## jowwy (3 Mar 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> We all have choice, even if that choice involving moving so you can get a local job.


Seriously…….you think its that easy, just to up and move and get another job.

do you live in the real world???


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## jowwy (3 Mar 2022)

Cerdic said:


> My wife doesn’t have much choice.
> 
> She is a teacher. Her school is 22 miles away. There is no bus. The nearest train station to us is a 20 minute walk. The nearest train station to the school is a 40 minute walk. Even without the walk, public transport would be impossible most days as she cannot physically carry all the exercise books, laptop, assorted gubbins in one go!
> 
> ...


Supposedly you now have to up and move closer to said job, so its cheaper for you to travel. But may double or treble your mortgage costs, but hey its a choice some say…..lol


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## Ming the Merciless (3 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> Seriously…….you think its that easy, just to up and move and get another job.
> 
> do you live in the real world???



Very much so and people have been doing it time immortal. I do it myself. Very few stay in same job forever. Nothing that is worth doing is easy.


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## tyred (3 Mar 2022)

Oldhippy said:


> From a purely environmental stand point the more done to discourage journeys under five miles the better.


In an ideal world yes but very, very few will make the change and the poor will struggle most and the emissions of Mr and Mrs Average's Ford Fiesta will pale into insignificance compared to one of Putin's armoured cars or tanks.


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## cougie uk (4 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> Seriously…….you think its that easy, just to up and move and get another job.
> 
> do you live in the real world???


Depends on your skills. 

I chose a job and house where I didn't need to drive to work. Walking or cycling was fine for thirty years or so. Sure I could have found something higher paying but I'd have had to pay for another car or hours of travel each day. 

There's a lot to be said for working local.


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## jowwy (4 Mar 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Depends on your skills.
> 
> I chose a job and house where I didn't need to drive to work. Walking or cycling was fine for thirty years or so. Sure I could have found something higher paying but I'd have had to pay for another car or hours of travel each day.
> 
> There's a lot to be said for working local.


If i moved closer to work, i would save on fuel.....but treble my mortgage. Wheres the sense in that??? And lots of people would be in that same boat


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## Cerdic (4 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> Supposedly you now have to up and move closer to said job, so its cheaper for you to travel. But may double or treble your mortgage costs, but hey its a choice some say…..lol



Oh, well that’s OK then.

But wait a minute, my job is in the other direction so I will have to double my commute…


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## gbb (4 Mar 2022)

I drive 30 miles each day commuting. I used to cycle once or twice a week but arthritis has finished all that so I have no choice.
It used to cost £30 to £35 a week for fuel.
Its currently costing £35 to £40 (there is some extra personal use in there of course)
I suspect its probably going to cost me another £10 a week soon the way things are going.

But in the bigger scheme of things, its a cost but one I can bear. Its unfortunate everything else is going up too, its a trickle becoming a running tap atm.
Again and again I remind myself, we can bear it all, we both work, no mortgage etc...but those on tight budgets


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## SydZ (4 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> Seriously…….you think its that easy, just to up and move and get another job.


Yes, if you put the effort in. Done it numerous times myself.

Moved job/ job base 7 times since leaving school and 6 have involved a house move too.


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## shep (4 Mar 2022)

SydZ said:


> Yes, if you put the effort in. Done it numerous times myself.
> 
> Moved job/ job base 7 times since leaving school and 6 have involved a house move too.


Of course it can be done, I could give up a 50k a year job where I'm out on the road fixing and maintaining mobile phone networks and get a job at the local Spa for minimum wage. 

I doubt I would consider it though in order to save on Diesel usage, but it's doable.


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## jowwy (4 Mar 2022)

There aint half some comedians on this thread.


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## shep (4 Mar 2022)

SydZ said:


> Yes, if you put the effort in. Done it numerous times myself.
> 
> Moved job/ job base 7 times since leaving school and 6 have involved a house move too.


I assume this was in order to get a better job though?

I agree if office based it's probably easier to change location but not if you're in the service industry and want to remain so.


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## dave r (4 Mar 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Depends on your skills.
> 
> I chose a job and house where I didn't need to drive to work. Walking or cycling was fine for thirty years or so. Sure I could have found something higher paying but I'd have had to pay for another car or hours of travel each day.
> 
> There's a lot to be said for working local.



When I was working, I'm retired now, I was never more than seven miles from home, I know not everyone can do that but staying close to home is a good idea if you can do it.


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## jowwy (4 Mar 2022)

SydZ said:


> Yes, if you put the effort in. Done it numerous times myself.
> 
> Moved job/ job base 7 times since leaving school and 6 have involved a house move too.


im guessing the moving numerous times and getting new jobs was to improve your earning power and not in detriment to it???

as i said, if i moved closer to where i work, its only 12 miles now ( zero miles as i now work form home) it would nearly treble my mortgage.

What would be the point in that???


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## SydZ (4 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> im guessing the moving numerous times and getting new jobs was to improve your earning power and not in detriment to it???
> 
> as i said, if i moved closer to where i work, its only 12 miles now ( zero miles as i now work form home) it would nearly treble my mortgage.
> 
> What would be the point in that???


My earnings either stayed the same or increased at each move. In one inst the only change was to move from an employer 8 miles away to one 3 miles away.

My latest move resulted in a total relocation and a substantial mortgage hike but the whole package and lifestyle changes was more than worth it.

Since moving we have got rid if one car and the remaining vehicle does low mileage per annum and is never used for commuting. TBH I could not tell you what fuel round hear costs.


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## jowwy (4 Mar 2022)

SydZ said:


> My earnings either stayed the same or increased at each move. In one inst the only change was to move from an employer 8 miles away to one 3 miles away.
> 
> *My latest move resulted in a total relocation and a substantial mortgage hike but the whole package and lifestyle changes was more than worth it*.
> 
> Since moving we have got rid if one car and the remaining vehicle does low mileage per annum and is never used for commuting.


and im assuming a substantial hike in wages?? also you now have one less car ( more savings) and less commuting miles ( more savings)

so nothing that was detrimental to your lifestyle???

would you have moved to that job/area if it was a at huge detriment to your lifestyle?? earnings?? costs??


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## Brandane (4 Mar 2022)

So to sum up the move closer to work, or not, question..... 
It all depends on your circumstances. 
With just a few years to full retirement, and currently on the wind down, doing 16 hours per week, I aint moving house for ANY job! 😄


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## SydZ (4 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> and im assuming a substantial hike in wages?? also you now have one less car ( more savings) and less commuting miles ( more savings)
> 
> so nothing that was detrimental to your lifestyle???
> 
> would you have moved to that job/area if it was a at huge detriment to your lifestyle?? earnings?? costs??


Initially the moved planning would have seen my salary remain the same and Mrs Sydz drop. Overall living costs would still have gone up. As it would result in Mrs Sydz moving away from the toxic working environment she was in we’d have gone ahead with that.

In the final reckoning I actually got a pay rise, though not what I would call substantial. Mrs Sydz, through another opportunity that presented itself, moved on the same pay.

I travel the further of us to work, 10k, but have never use the car.


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## cyberknight (4 Mar 2022)

Brandane said:


> So to sum up the move closer to work, or not, question.....
> It all depends on your circumstances.
> With just a few years to full retirement, and currently on the wind down, doing 16 hours per week, I aint moving house for ANY job! 😄


indeed , im currently having to drive due to injury and theres no public transport within 2 miles of where i work or run for my shift pattern ,
If i wanted to work closer from home it would be a pay cut and as house prices have risen by about 25 % in the last 2 years and age means i cant afford to move either .


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## winjim (4 Mar 2022)

Hmmm, I'm beginning to think that this whole commuting by car business might be a systemic rather than an individual problem.

Funny that.


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## I like Skol (4 Mar 2022)

Just to get back on topic and give some balance to all the armchair sensationalism and rumour spreading I thought I would post this...







That is my local Sainsbury's this morning as I collected my weekly shop. Give or take a couple of pence that is the same price it has been for around a month and possibly quite a bit longer.

I really despair when all these 'knowledgeable' internet/social media voices start crying a self fulfilling prophecy of doom. Nothing is more certain to start the lemming like rush to panic buy fuel 'before they run out or the price rockets!' than some moron spouting the crap about 'They know the price will be £2/ltr within days' etc.

By the way, I drove past the garage without filling up. I have enough in the tank to last a good few weeks so no point in topping up now.....

Can I suggest we stop feeding the beast and making stuff up?


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## Ming the Merciless (4 Mar 2022)

Yep the £2 a litre is just a rumour spread by the OP.


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## jowwy (4 Mar 2022)

after the last two posts - i though i would put this here again - no armchair sensationalism or rumour or self fullfilling prophecy of doom, but actual cold, hard facts


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## fossyant (4 Mar 2022)

Better go put some fuel in my planet burning 20 year old car then - not put any in it for over a month, or do I panic buy a £70k leccy car just so I can feel 'green' 

I'll carry on riding the bike to work then. Car does need fuel as I need to open the caravan up for the year and take some bikes to it.


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## shep (4 Mar 2022)

I'll carry on driving around the country fixing the mobile phone network the very people rely on to moan about people driving around the country!

Get a grip!


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## I like Skol (4 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> after the last two posts - i though i would put this here again - no armchair sensationalism or rumour or self fullfilling prophecy of doom, but actual cold, hard facts
> 
> View attachment 633737


It's on the internet so it must be true?

I suspect some selective reporting of unique cases or maybe cold hard profiteering by the suppliers in a restricted location?

But just go ahead and keep retweeting it and soon everyone will panic!


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## jowwy (4 Mar 2022)

I like Skol said:


> It's on the internet so it must be true?
> 
> I suspect some selective reporting of unique cases or maybe cold hard profiteering by the suppliers in a restricted location?
> 
> But just go ahead and keep retweeting it and soon everyone will panic!


no - it was an email sent to me from welsh government with updates for wales. So no not on the internet, i only have to drive 30 seconds down my road to find a petrol station charging 161.9 a litre, so thats a visual expereince and not an internet one

and even if its restricted locations its still true....

also i'm no tweeting anything, i'm not even on twitter, i'm just posting it here, to say that some places are currently pay higher prices than others. If you want to bury your head in the sand and say its not happening, then all power to you. but people in wales are paying these prices.

But no one here is panic buying, the same as they didn't last year when the whole of england was doing so.


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## fossyant (4 Mar 2022)

That's the thing though, it start's panic buying - there were big queue's last week due to 'press' scare mongering. I had no fuel last week, and I've still no fuel in the car now, although the light is 'on'. It's not yet flashed up on the information system screen with a dirty big fuel pump, so no need to panic yet.


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## I like Skol (4 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> no - it was an email sent to me from welsh government with updates for wales. So no not on the internet, i only have to drive 30 seconds down my road to find a petrol station charging 161.9 a litre, so thats a visual expereince and not an internet one
> 
> and even if its restricted locations its still true....
> 
> ...


But what did it cost before Putin's invasion started?


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## jowwy (4 Mar 2022)

I like Skol said:


> But what did it cost before Putin's invasion started?


its been steadily going up since xmas, putin only invaded 7 days ago......and the invasion will never stop and oil prices will continue to rise.

the amazing thing is, that the price of oil is now at the same price it was in March 2012 ( give or take a dollar or two) , but we are paying way over what we were paying then. So its not solely down to the oil price increase.

and not everything you say, people have to agree with, some of us have our own opinions and thoughts on things that will differ from yours, time you accepted that.


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## jowwy (4 Mar 2022)

for context of what i said above

Crude oil per barrel March 2008 - $150 ( at its highest point)
Petrol 106
Diesel 113

Crude oil per barrel March 2022 - $110
Petrol 152
Diesel 155

so thats $40 dollars less per barrel, but on average 40p more per litre


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## SydZ (4 Mar 2022)

How much has fuel duty increased since 2008?


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## SpokeyDokey (4 Mar 2022)

I like Skol said:


> Just to get back on topic and give some balance to all the armchair sensationalism and rumour spreading I thought I would post this...
> 
> View attachment 633730
> 
> ...



We need to shut down the fourth estate to do that properly. 

TBH I think many people like a touch of drama in their life - especially if they feel that they are part of it and can share their involvement via social media.


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## Toe Clip (4 Mar 2022)

Eee I remember buying 3 gallons of petrol for £1.00. Alas no more


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## jowwy (4 Mar 2022)

SydZ said:


> How much has fuel duty increased since 2008?


im not sure - but the current excuse all over news is the fuel increase is due to the russian invasion of ukraine.........and that may be the case as oil has increased in price over the past few days. But we are still not seeing the prices we paid in 2008.

So its not just because of the russian invasion of ukraine


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## SpokeyDokey (4 Mar 2022)

Toe Clip said:


> Eee I remember buying 3 gallons of petrol for £1.00. Alas no more



I love these old rememberances:

I remember, back in the early 70's when I was 16, that I could take a girlfriend out for an evening in a pub, a bag of chips each and some essential love accessories for less than two quid. 😜


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## MrGrumpy (4 Mar 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> We all have choice, even if that choice involving moving so you can get a local job.


Sounds oh so simple , if only that were the case.............


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## gbb (4 Mar 2022)

dave r said:


> When I was working, I'm retired now, I was never more than seven miles from home, I know not everyone can do that but staying close to home is a good idea if you can do it.


Isn't some of that luck though or at least that most towns used to have vibrant working opportunities.
I spent 33 years 3 miles from work, lovely but finding work that matches my skills mean I now need to go (much) further afield.


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## dave r (4 Mar 2022)

gbb said:


> Isn't some of that luck though or at least that most towns used to have vibrant working opportunities.
> I spent 33 years 3 miles from work, lovely but finding work that matches my skills mean I now need to go (much) further afield.



I moved to Coventry in 1973 from the south coast for personal reasons I'm not going into on here, and always managed to find something though it got more difficult as time went by, I was always a manual worker, stores, warehouse, forklifts, van driving and labouring.


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## MrGrumpy (4 Mar 2022)

dave r said:


> I moved to Coventry in 1973 from the south coast for personal reasons I'm not going into on here, and always managed to find something though it got more difficult as time went by, I was always a manual worker, stores, warehouse, forklifts, van driving and labouring.


To be fair we moved close to work as we could but also to an affordable home as well. This was 27yrs ago now. It was just two of us , now a family of 5 with roots ! I’m 16 miles by bike slightly more by car. People said we were daft to move to where we did but I’d say it’s paid off big time , as I would never be able to live in the size of house we have and the lifestyle that we afford. So we all make choices good or bad. We do have ok transport links when they work.


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## Ming the Merciless (4 Mar 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> I love these old rememberances:
> 
> I remember, back in the early 70's when I was 16, that I could take a girlfriend out for an evening in a pub, a bag of chips each and some essential love accessories for less than two quid. 😜



Love accessories - chip forks…


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## oldwheels (4 Mar 2022)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Diesel in Fort William is currently 163.9p/litre.


Morrison's is usually the cheapest in Ft Wm. I paid less than that in Tobermory last week.


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## oldwheels (4 Mar 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Cost of driving is so low compared to public transport.
> 
> I don't think we should go easy on drivers when OAPs will be struggling to keep their living rooms warm.


Quite a lot of OAPs are also drivers. I cannot walk any reasonable distance so need my car. I can use a trike but not practical for day to day use where I live.


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## numbnuts (4 Mar 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> I love these old rememberances:
> 
> I remember, back in the early 70's when I was 16, that I could take a girlfriend out for an evening in a pub, a bag of chips each and some essential love accessories for less than two quid. 😜


Cheapskate


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## BrumJim (4 Mar 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> I love these old rememberances:
> 
> I remember, back in the early 70's when I was 16, that I could take a girlfriend out for an evening in a pub, a bag of chips each and some essential love accessories for less than two quid. 😜


I could do better than that:

Meet up with a girl in a pub. She realises its just you, so goes off to talk to someone else. After a pint of beer on your own, you realise that she's not coming back to talk to you, drinking beer on your own is no fun, and you still have that love accessory you bought a couple of years ago and never used.
80p spent.


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## Ming the Merciless (4 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> for context of what i said above
> 
> Crude oil per barrel March 2008 - $150 ( at its highest point)
> Petrol 106
> ...



Indeed, but you got $2 USD to the £1 back in March 2008.

March 2008 - £75 a barrel
March 2022 - £82 a barrel

Barrels cost us more in 2022.

Fuel Duty has risen 15% in 14 years, so hardly at all. Plus you have 14 years inflation on wages and property rents.


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## SpokeyDokey (4 Mar 2022)

numbnuts said:


> Cheapskate



Oi! 

I'll have you know that I used to get up at 5.30am to walk the three miles to town just to clean floors in the big Tesco - before school which was another 3 mile walk to get there. 

Mopping and buffing was a hard earned way to get my teen essentials; and I had to spend wisely. 

Chips were a luxury back then! 😁


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## SpokeyDokey (4 Mar 2022)

BrumJim said:


> I could do better than that:
> 
> Meet up with a girl in a pub. She realises its just you, so goes off to talk to someone else. After a pint of beer on your own, you realise that she's not coming back to talk to you, drinking beer on your own is no fun, and you still have that love accessory you bought a couple of years ago and never used.
> 80p spent.



You should've bought her some chips. ❤️


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## Jenkins (4 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> for context of what i said above
> 
> Crude oil per barrel March 2008 - $150 ( at its highest point)
> Petrol 106
> ...


March 2008 - 1 GBP = 1.98 USD so a barrel cost was £75.75
March 2022 - 1 GBP = 1.33 USD so a barrel cost is now higher at £82.70
Add on various fuel duty increases since then (not for the past 8 years or so though) an that's where the increase has come from

Figures from: https://www.poundsterlinglive.com/b...rical-spot-exchange-rates/gbp/GBP-to-USD-2008

Edited to add fuel duty rates from https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...tin/historical-hydrocarbon-oils-duty-rates--2

Date of changeLeaded petrol and other light oilsUnleaded petrolBioethanolDieselBiodiesel/blendedAviation gasolineRebated heavy oil - fuel oilRebated heavy oil - gas oilRoad fuel gases - natural gasRoad fuel gases - all other gases01 April 200860.0750.3530.3550.3530.3530.039.299.690.13700.164901 December 200862.0752.3532.3552.3532.3531.039.6610.070.16600.207701 April 200962.0754.1934.1954.1934.1931.0310.0010.420.19260.248201 May 200963.9154.1934.1954.1934.1933.3410.0010.420.19260.248201 September 200965.9156.1936.1956.1936.1934.5710.3710.800.22160.276701 April 201066.9157.1957.1957.1957.1938.3510.5510.990.23600.305301 October 201067.9158.1958.1958.1958.1938.3510.7411.180.25050.319501 January 201168.6758.9558.9558.9558.9538.3510.8811.330.26150.330423 March 201167.6757.9557.9557.9557.9537.7010.7011.140.24700.316101 January 202167.6757.9557.9557.9557.9538.2010.7011.140.24700.3161


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## Ming the Merciless (4 Mar 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Chips were a luxury back then! 😁



They were part of my five portions a day diet


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## dave r (4 Mar 2022)

BrumJim said:


> You still have that love accessory you bought a couple of years ago and never used.
> 80p spent.



It would sit in the back of the wallet till the writing had worn of the packet.


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## MrGrumpy (4 Mar 2022)

Costco unleaded £1.43 Big bad diesel £1.47 . My local BP aka Dick Turpin’s garage add 12p a litre on top of those prices. I’ve not been up at the motorway services at Kinross but my guess is that they will be up at £1.70 ish .


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## Brandane (4 Mar 2022)

Let's not forget that the introduction of E10 petrol to replace E5 means that we now have 10% (rather than the previous 5%) of petrol made with some sort of plant/flower substance that simply burns off into thin air and contributes nothing to the forward motion of a motor vehicle. Being fleeced? Not much!


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## midlife (4 Mar 2022)

Ethanol improves petrol combustion as it contains oxygen. My methanol injected car put out over 400 BHP which had impressive forward motion


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## dave r (4 Mar 2022)

Brandane said:


> Let's not forget that the introduction of E10 petrol to replace E5 means that we now have 10% (rather than the previous 5%) of petrol made with some sort of plant/flower substance that simply burns off into thin air and contributes nothing to the forward motion of a motor vehicle. Being fleeced? Not much!



The E10 has made my Suzuki Swift's forward motion noticeably more urgent, unfortunately its also increased the vehicle's thirst, but that doesn't matter I'm still getting 45mpg.


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## Brandane (4 Mar 2022)

midlife said:


> Ethanol improves petrol combustion as it contains oxygen. My methanol injected car put out over 400 BHP which had impressive forward motion


I thought the oxygen came from the air intake, and that the correct fuel/air mixture was done by electronic trickery these days. 
All I know is that my 100 or so BHP Suzuki S-Cross used to average low 50's mpg on E5 petrol. Now it is consistently mid 40's.


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## midlife (4 Mar 2022)

Brandane said:


> I thought the oxygen came from the air intake, and that the correct fuel/air mixture was done by electronic trickery these days.
> All I know is that my 100 or so BHP Suzuki S-Cross used to average low 50's mpg on E5 petrol. Now it is consistently mid 40's.



Sorry, I was being a bit flippant. C2H5OH does contain oxygen but is not seen by the Ecu trying to run stoichiometric.


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## cougie uk (4 Mar 2022)

oldwheels said:


> Quite a lot of OAPs are also drivers. I cannot walk any reasonable distance so need my car. I can use a trike but not practical for day to day use where I live.


But not huge mileages. The cost of petrol isn't much compared to the cost of buying and maintaining a car.


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## MrGrumpy (5 Mar 2022)

dave r said:


> The E10 has made my Suzuki Swift's forward motion noticeably more urgent, unfortunately its also increased the vehicle's thirst, but that doesn't matter I'm still getting 45mpg.


That E10 fuel throws up engine management lights on my lads mini ! He has to run on the super unleaded stuff . Going to experiment with fuel additive and cheap fuel ! My other lads 208 failed it’s MOT on emissions , garage reckoned it was the fuel ! They chucked some additive in and it fixed itself . Both cars younger than 2011.


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## dave r (5 Mar 2022)

cougie uk said:


> But not huge mileages. The cost of petrol isn't much compared to the cost of buying and maintaining a car.



Pensioners are the same as everybody else, some do big mileages some do little mileages, I'm 70 and up until last year I was driving around 5000 miles a year, now unfortunately my Good Lady has lost her mobility and I've become her carer, she can no longer get in the car so we can't go out together and I don't have the time to do any more than a fraction of the miles I was doing.


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## dave r (5 Mar 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> That E10 fuel throws up engine management lights on my lads mini ! He has to run on the super unleaded stuff . Going to experiment with fuel additive and cheap fuel ! My other lads 208 failed it’s MOT on emissions , garage reckoned it was the fuel ! They chucked some additive in and it fixed itself . Both cars younger than 2011.



Its strange, my Swift is 2011 registered and runs well on it, though there's always a chance that the new fuel is doing some damage and the first I'll know about it is when the car breaks down.


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## Brandane (5 Mar 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> cheap fuel


Let us know where you find that!


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## Mo1959 (5 Mar 2022)

Not long back from an early walk and I was struck by just how much traffic was on the roads already. If anything it's getting busier than ever, so some people obviously don't mind the cost of fuel. Walked down through the grounds of Crieff Hydro Hotel and 90% of the cars parked at the chalets were large SUV's.


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## oldwheels (5 Mar 2022)

cougie uk said:


> But not huge mileages. The cost of petrol isn't much compared to the cost of buying and maintaining a car.


True I do not currently do high mileages due to largely to the covid problems and being unable to get ferry bookings over most of the year. The cost of car insurance is my main expense being more than double the cost of annual maintenance and mot.
My present car is a Peugeot Partner ex motability which had 8000ish miles when I got it for a very reasonable price. It should do me for the rest of my driving life.


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## Ming the Merciless (5 Mar 2022)

Mo1959 said:


> Not long back from an early walk and I was struck by just how much traffic was on the roads already. If anything it's getting busier than ever, so some people obviously don't mind the cost of fuel. Walked down through the grounds of Crieff Hydro Hotel and 90% of the cars parked at the chalets were large SUV's.



Indeed despite all the whinging, fuel is still cheap enough for millions of UK drivers.


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## oldwheels (5 Mar 2022)

Mo1959 said:


> Not long back from an early walk and I was struck by just how much traffic was on the roads already. If anything it's getting busier than ever, so some people obviously don't mind the cost of fuel. Walked down through the grounds of Crieff Hydro Hotel and 90% of the cars parked at the chalets were large SUV's.


Not up to date on Crieff Hydro but is it not the sort of place where if you have to ask the cost you cannot afford it?


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## Thorn Sherpa (5 Mar 2022)

Environmentally wise I agree with a lot of the people where it could encourage people to use a bike or even walk to school instead of using the car and other short distance runs. I do feel for the people on low wages and people in debt through no fault of there own who are going to be affected by rises in fuel and all the other costs going up gas and electric etc. I'm lucky that theres a shower at my workplace and my job doesn't involve wearing suits etc so the option is always there but I know for a lot of people riding to work isn't realistic


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## MrGrumpy (5 Mar 2022)

Brandane said:


> Let us know where you find that!


Cheaper….


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## flake99please (5 Mar 2022)

Prices today at Costco Edinburgh….
Unleaded £1.41.9
Diesel £1.44.9
Super £1.45.9

All fuels were 2p per litre cheaper on the 28th.


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## MrGrumpy (5 Mar 2022)

flake99please said:


> Prices today at Costco Edinburgh….
> Unleaded £1.41.9
> Diesel £1.44.9
> Super £1.45.9
> ...


Need to get my eyes tested was there yesterday, could of swore it was dearer.


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## BoldonLad (5 Mar 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Cost of driving is so low compared to public transport.
> 
> *I don't think we should go easy on drivers when OAPs will be struggling to keep their living rooms warm.*



Many OAPs are also drivers........


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## gbb (5 Mar 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Indeed despite all the whinging, fuel is still cheap enough for millions of UK drivers.


One thing has surprised me, over 20 years ago i remember petrol peaking temporarily at nearly £1.50 a litre, it hurt people , i remember hiw many more bikes you'd see in the mornings, old bikes, BSOs, people forced into commuting. TBF, its just occured to me, im not in town at thise times now...perhaps more people have moved to bikes again through neccessity.


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## fossyant (5 Mar 2022)

Just paid 1:50 for unleaded at Morrisons, Esso nearby wanted 1:70 for diesel.


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## mustang1 (5 Mar 2022)

This is all means bike prices will become sterner more stealable as people move to bike-commuting. Look after your bikes and get an extra lock if necessary.


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## Thorn Sherpa (5 Mar 2022)

mustang1 said:


> This is all means bike prices will become sterner more stealable as people move to bike-commuting. Look after your bikes and get an extra lock if necessary.


Thats a very good point, always a knock on effect and it probably will be reflected in bike prices and thefts. Especially in places round London I think it's already a problem with bike thefts


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## Gillstay (5 Mar 2022)

Judging by the amount of people who still leave their engines running at level crossings, while parked on double yellows, while waiting for their friend in the shop, or messing with their phones, fuel is not expensive enough yet.


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## Milzy (5 Mar 2022)

Gillstay said:


> Judging by the amount of people who still leave their engines running at level crossings, while parked on double yellows, while waiting for their friend in the shop, or messing with their phones, fuel is not expensive enough yet.


I agree if it’s £4 a litre I don’t care. Keep the SUV gas guzzlers off the road. If it gets high I’ll ride 10 miles to work.


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## gzoom (6 Mar 2022)

These fuel costs are going 'kill' large displacement combustion cars.

A V6/8 doing 15mpg is going to cost £6 per 10 miles in fuel if we get to £2/l .


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## Brandane (6 Mar 2022)

gzoom said:


> These fuel costs are going 'kill' large displacement combustion cars.
> 
> A V6/8 doing 15mpg is going to cost £6 per 10 miles in fuel if we get to £2/l .


I hope you'll be rejoicing as much about the cost of road transport for almost every item you buy. An artic does about 8 mpg..... But hey; let's blame price rises on drivers getting an extra pound per hour .


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## Cerdic (6 Mar 2022)

Gillstay said:


> Judging by the amount of people who still leave their engines running at level crossings, while parked on double yellows, while waiting for their friend in the shop, or messing with their phones, fuel is not expensive enough yet.



Thing is, at idle an engine uses bugger all fuel.

At work, a couple of years back, we had a car that had somehow got locked with the keys inside and the engine running. It sat at the back of the yard for about three DAYS before it ran out of fuel!


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## Cerdic (6 Mar 2022)

gzoom said:


> These fuel costs are going 'kill' large displacement combustion cars.
> 
> A V6/8 doing 15mpg is going to cost £6 per 10 miles in fuel if we get to £2/l .



For people who can afford a car like that the price of fuel is not an issue…


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## cougie uk (6 Mar 2022)

Cerdic said:


> Thing is, at idle an engine uses bugger all fuel.
> 
> At work, a couple of years back, we had a car that had somehow got locked with the keys inside and the engine running. It sat at the back of the yard for about three DAYS before it ran out of fuel!


But why ? It's not like the doors open when it's out of fuel ? 
Or were his keys getting posted on or something ?


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## cougie uk (6 Mar 2022)

Brandane said:


> I hope you'll be rejoicing as much about the cost of road transport for almost every item you buy. An artic does about 8 mpg..... But hey; let's blame price rises on drivers getting an extra pound per hour .


True that transport and all costs will go up but imagine if it was just goods vehicles on the road. No congestion !


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## Cerdic (6 Mar 2022)

The keys were locked inside the car so we couldn’t open it to turn the engine off. The spare keys are all held at head office who were a bit slow posting them out to us!


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## shep (6 Mar 2022)

cougie uk said:


> True that transport and all costs will go up but imagine if it was just goods vehicles on the road. No congestion !


And no service industry or tradesmen?

What dreamworld do you live in?


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## vickster (6 Mar 2022)

shep said:


> And no service industry or tradesmen?
> 
> What dreamworld do you live in?


And no hospitals or schools or care homes functioning as their staff can’t get to work.
what about buses, they can certainly cause congestion in London.


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## Oldhippy (6 Mar 2022)

Ultimately unless there is a catastrophic event, environmental or otherwise that gives humanity no choice but to change their way of life there will be so many people who continue to carry on as 'normal' regardless of cost. Despite overwhelming evidence of the damage vehicles cause, health, environmental without a societal sea change and the political will they will be regarded as essential to existence.


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## Ming the Merciless (6 Mar 2022)

vickster said:


> And no hospitals or schools or care homes functioning as their staff can’t get to work.
> what about buses, they can certainly cause congestion in London.



How on earth does a bus cause congestion? Surely it’s down to the volume of private vehicles on the road, both those being driven somewhere, and those parked up reducing the width of usable road?


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## BoldonLad (6 Mar 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> How on earth does a bus cause congestion? Surely it’s down to the volume of private vehicles on the road, both those being driven somewhere, and those parked up reducing the width of usable road?



Surely ANYTHING can cause congestion, if there are enough of them?


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## Ming the Merciless (6 Mar 2022)

BoldonLad said:


> Surely ANYTHING can cause congestion, if there are enough of them?



In theory but the number of buses is tiny compared to amount of traffic.

This photo demonstrates the space taken up by bus, cycle, car for same number of people.


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## vickster (6 Mar 2022)

Try Oxford Street on a Saturday with its queues of the big red jobs (with the odd black cab interspersed)


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## MrGrumpy (6 Mar 2022)

cougie uk said:


> True that transport and all costs will go up but imagine if it was just goods vehicles on the road. No congestion !



Of course EV vehicles will cause no congestion either ?!! Dearer fuel equals dearer goods, everything is going to get more expensive including those electrons charging your EV. Plenty to rejoice right enough !


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## Brandane (6 Mar 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> This photo demonstrates the space taken up by bus, cycle, car for same number of people.


No it doesn't.
That bus is a 52 seater (approx).. 
The line of cars is hard to count as it disappears into the distance for effect, but I counted at least 20. Each car can probably hold about 5 people, so I make that 100.
So how is that representative? It isn't, it doesn't even try. Just more BS from people with an anti car agenda. 😄


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## Mo1959 (6 Mar 2022)

Brandane said:


> No it doesn't.
> That bus is a 52 seater (approx)..
> The line of cars is hard to count as it disappears into the distance for effect, but I counted at least 20. Each car can probably hold about 5 people, so I make that 100.
> So how is that representative? It isn't, it doesn't even try. Just more BS from people with an anti car agenda. 😄


In saying that, I've walked up the street first thing around commuting time and see a couple of people in the bus while streams of single occupancy cars are driving by. Something needs to be done to encourage these people away from their cars surely?


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## Brandane (6 Mar 2022)

Mo1959 said:


> In saying that, I've walked up the street first thing around commuting time and see a couple of people in the bus while streams of single occupancy cars are driving by. Something needs to be done to encourage these people away from their cars surely?


I don't have a problem with that. Give us a good, reliable, affordable public transport system which goes where I want, when I want, and I will happily use it.
My issue was with that misleading photo. Trying to convince us to do the right thing by telling us lies and thinking we are stupid enough to fall for it, is NOT the way to go about things, IMHO..


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## Cerdic (6 Mar 2022)

Brandane said:


> I don't have a problem with that. Give us a good, reliable, affordable public transport system which goes where I want, when I want, and I will happily use it.
> My issue was with that misleading photo. Trying to convince us to do the right thing by telling us lies and thinking we are stupid enough to fall for it, is NOT the way to go about things, IMHO..



Nail on head…bus stop is a bit of a walk, then you have to wait in whatever crap weather we are having, bus doesn’t go where I want to go, journey takes longer than driving because the damn thing keeps stopping every two minutes, not to mention the other passengers (unruly teenagers, drunks, demented old biddies etc). This is why people prefer to use their car that is on their doorstep ready to go directly to their destination with the temperature set to their preferred level with Zoe Ball on the radio!

Public transport is great in theory but a lot of work needs to be done on making it more convenient if you want to entice large numbers of people out of their cars.

Before the mid-20th Century almost everyone used public transport. They didn’t switch to personal cars for no reason, they did it because it suited their needs better…


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## winjim (6 Mar 2022)

Brandane said:


> No it doesn't.
> That bus is a 52 seater (approx)..
> The line of cars is hard to count as it disappears into the distance for effect, but I counted at least 20. Each car can probably hold about 5 people, so I make that 100.
> So how is that representative? It isn't, it doesn't even try. Just more BS from people with an anti car agenda. 😄


Those bikes ain't moving either. I would have thought that in motion, a single cyclist takes up about the same room as a car, don't they? But a single person on a bus takes up much more space. Buses may be empty, or full, or inbetween. Cars may contain single or multiple people. There's differences between peak and off-peak usage. You've got to factor all that into your modelling and then it becomes a lot more complicated.


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## winjim (6 Mar 2022)

Cerdic said:


> Nail on head…bus stop is a bit of a walk, then you have to wait in whatever crap weather we are having, bus doesn’t go where I want to go, journey takes longer than driving because the damn thing keeps stopping every two minutes, not to mention the other passengers (unruly teenagers, drunks, demented old biddies etc). This is why people prefer to use their car that is on their doorstep ready to go directly to their destination with the temperature set to their preferred level with Zoe Ball on the radio!
> 
> Public transport is great in theory but a lot of work needs to be done on making it more convenient if you want to entice large numbers of people out of their cars.
> 
> Before the mid-20th Century almost everyone used public transport. They didn’t switch to personal cars for no reason, they did it because it suited their needs better…


Ditto longer journeys with luggage and children.


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## vickster (6 Mar 2022)

Do away with children and in the relatively not too distant future, we can do away with all cars, buses, trains, planes, trucks…even bicycles  Not to mention fossil fuels… Job done


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## Ming the Merciless (6 Mar 2022)

Brandane said:


> No it doesn't.
> That bus is a 52 seater (approx)..
> The line of cars is hard to count as it disappears into the distance for effect, but I counted at least 20. Each car can probably hold about 5 people, so I make that 100.
> So how is that representative? It isn't, it doesn't even try. Just more BS from people with an anti car agenda. 😄



How many cars do you see with 5 people in them? Go stand on a street and look at the cars going by. Mostly one person and rarely two or more. Cars are the most inefficient way of moving people about on town / city scales.


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## Cerdic (6 Mar 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> How many cars do you see with 5 people in them? Go stand on a street and look at the cars going by. Mostly one person and rarely two or more. Cars are the most inefficient way of moving people about on town / city scales.



From a big picture perspective of course cars are inefficient in cities. But people on an individual level just want comfort and convenience. You could make buses and trains free, and you would still have loads of cars on the road…


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## Brandane (6 Mar 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> How many cars do you see with 5 people in them? Go stand on a street and look at the cars going by. Mostly one person and rarely two or more. Cars are the most inefficient way of moving people about on town / city scales.


And how many buses do you see with a handful of passengers in them? 
If you're going to present that photo as some kind of evidence, then you need to do it fairly, and assume that each type of vehicle is filled to capacity, or it is meaningless.


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## Ming the Merciless (6 Mar 2022)

Brandane said:


> And how many buses do you see with a handful of passengers in them?
> If you're going to present that photo as some kind of evidence, then you need to do it fairly, and assume that each type of vehicle is filled to capacity, or it is meaningless.



A car filled to capacity is meaningless as it’s as rare as hens teeth. It’s not the reality. The reality is bumper to bumper cars with just the driver in them.


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## winjim (6 Mar 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> How many cars do you see with 5 people in them? Go stand on a street and look at the cars going by. Mostly one person and rarely two or more. Cars are the most inefficient way of moving people about on town / city scales.


It depends how you measure efficiency. A car will take you point to point, by the most direct route and with the flexibility to change your route if desired. That's pretty efficient on an individual level. A lot of car journeys are quicker and easier than the equivalent bus journey.


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## Brandane (6 Mar 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> A car filled to capacity is meaningless as it’s as rare as hens teeth. It’s not the reality. The reality is bumper to bumper cars with just the driver in them.


But if you're going to present it as a legitimate comparison, you have to assume both types of transport are operating to capacity. Otherwise I might as well post a photo of 5 buses and one car, making similar claims about the space taken up!


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## Ming the Merciless (6 Mar 2022)

Brandane said:


> But if you're going to present it as a legitimate comparison, you have to assume both types of transport are operating to capacity. Otherwise I might as well post a photo of 5 buses and one car, making similar claims about the space taken up!



In what scenario are cars going to be filled to capacity? Not going to happen whereas bus filled to capacity can happen with right incentives.


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## Phaeton (6 Mar 2022)

vickster said:


> Do away with children and in the relatively not too distant future, we can do away with all cars, buses, trains, planes, trucks…even bicycles  Not to mention fossil fuels… Job done


I think you have something there, but no UK Government will go for it, personally I think any person who replicates more than just to replace either their partner or themselves is being irresponsible.


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## winjim (6 Mar 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I think you have something there, but no UK Government will go for it, personally I think any person who replicates more than just to replace either their partner or themselves is being irresponsible.


Our government has a two child policy.


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## classic33 (6 Mar 2022)

Brandane said:


> No it doesn't.
> *That bus is a 52 seater (approx).. *
> The line of cars is hard to count as it disappears into the distance for effect, but I counted at least 20. Each car can probably hold about 5 people, so I make that 100.
> So how is that representative? It isn't, it doesn't even try. Just more BS from people with an anti car agenda. 😄


I count 72 stood at the side of it.


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## Brandane (6 Mar 2022)

classic33 said:


> I count 72 stood at the side of it.


Must be a very cramped seating arrangement in the bus then? Or allowing for standing passengers too, if that is even allowed in these elfin safety days. 
On a recount of the cars, there are actually at least 30 of them, so 150 potential people being carried. Whatever way you look at it, it is BS...


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## johnnyb47 (6 Mar 2022)

I travel around 35 miles to work and back and it now costs me an extra £5 a week.I do car share though which really helps in keeping the costs down.
There must be thousands of vehicles on our roads each day with only one occupant in them going to work ect, when they could be used to give others a lift to the same place.It cuts congestion,and pollution if we could all car share.
Diesel were I live has gone up by a 9p a litre in a week to £1.70.
Time to start using the veg oil in my old burner again I think 🤔


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## Gillstay (6 Mar 2022)

Cerdic said:


> Thing is, at idle an engine uses bugger all fuel.
> 
> At work, a couple of years back, we had a car that had somehow got locked with the keys inside and the engine running. It sat at the back of the yard for about three DAYS before it ran out of fuel!


So why leave it polluting for so long. Blocking the exhaust or the fuel line would have stopped it.


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## gzoom (7 Mar 2022)

Cerdic said:


> For people who can afford a car like that the price of fuel is not an issue…



£60 for 10 mile, or £600 a month if you do 1000 miles a month, add in £200-300/month for home energy costs, every one will feel it!!

Crude oil prices is currently a vertical line upwards, so £2/l might seem cheap in a weeks time. After all we have all come to accept 30p per kWh for electricity verus half of that only 12 months ago, but what choice is there?

Inflation was near double digit before all this madness, what will it be this quarter? 10%+, the Bank of England will have to do something, but increasing interest rates will fuel the inflation cycle......

We are rapidly heading into the financial unknown, this war sadly isn't ending any time soon. China is now making some noises. If China is forced to support Putin (autocracy will support autocracy), the economic impact on the world economy will make current events look like a fun day out in the park.

All of us should be thankful we have our homes and families safe, but I have no doubt we are heading for big drop in living standards, which is a small price to pay in the bigger picture. Big luxury V6/V8 cars will be the first thing to go.


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## jowwy (7 Mar 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> In theory but the number of buses is tiny compared to amount of traffic.
> 
> This photo demonstrates the space taken up by bus, cycle, car for same number of people.
> 
> View attachment 634022


Too many assumptions in those pictures for the comparison to be truelly representative


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## jowwy (7 Mar 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> In what scenario are cars going to be filled to capacity? Not going to happen whereas bus filled to capacity can happen with right incentives.


So can cars with the right incentives too………ive never seen a bus filled to capacity, not my old school bus back in the day


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## SpokeyDokey (7 Mar 2022)

Over a hundred homes in our village and no bus service at all let alone a convenient bus service. 

Last village we lived in had one bus per week on Friday morning and it returned Friday afternoon. 

Can't see that changing - ever.


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## jowwy (7 Mar 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Over a hundred homes in our village and no bus service at all let alone a convenient bus service.
> 
> Last village we lived in had one bus per week on Friday morning and it returned Friday afternoon.
> 
> Can't see that changing - ever.


car or bike it is then lol


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## Phaeton (7 Mar 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Over a hundred homes in our village and no bus service at all let alone a convenient bus service.
> 
> Last village we lived in had one bus per week on Friday morning and it returned Friday afternoon.
> 
> Can't see that changing - ever.


They, the the local council are trying to push through a new housing development in the nearby town for 1600 houses in a green belt, there is no provision for shops, schools, dentists, GP's nor public transport, anybody who lives there will be reliant on a car.


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## mjr (7 Mar 2022)

Phaeton said:


> They, the the local council are trying to push through a new housing development in the nearby town for 1600 houses in a green belt, there is no provision for shops, schools, dentists, GP's nor public transport, anybody who lives there will be reliant on a car.


Most of that is due to national government policies. The local council has no choice. The infrastructure levy (schools, minimal public transport) and council tax comes after the houses are built. The NHS allocates resources for doctors and dentists after the houses are occupied. No-one is backing up local councils to require non-car transport infrastructure: Active Travel England is taking ages to set up and should improve stuff for cycling and walking but still no one will be requiring bus gates and lanes. So car use is established early and is a hard habit to break.


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## winjim (7 Mar 2022)

I live in a city where, at rush hour, the buses and trams are regularly filled to, and probably over, capacity.

Have you ever tried to travel with two small children on a tram or bus that's filled to capacity? It's not an entirely pleasant experience if I'm being honest.


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## Phaeton (7 Mar 2022)

mjr said:


> Most of that is due to national government policies. The local council has no choice. The infrastructure levy comes after the houses are built. The NHS allocates resources after the houses are occupied. No-one is backing up local councils to require non-car transport infrastructure: Active Travel England is taking ages to set up and should improve stuff for cycling and walking but still no one will be requiring bus gates and lanes. So car use is established early and is a hard habit to break.


In this instance the National Government has decided we need around 6K homes across the whole District, the Council has decided to build over 11K, well not them, but are trying to approve planning for over 11K, most of which will be within the green belts as brown fields are more expensive to develop.


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## Ming the Merciless (7 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> So can cars with the right incentives too………ive never seen a bus filled to capacity, not my old school bus back in the day



What would be the incentive for private car owners to ferry four other people about? What will it take for you to carry four other passengers every time you head out in your car?


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## SpokeyDokey (7 Mar 2022)

Cars are here to stay imo - they are too convenient to give up, are nigh on essential for a good number of people for various reasons and universal, quality and user-friendly public transport is never going to happen on cost grounds. 

ICE cars are doomed and EV or possibly hydrogen is the direction that we are heading. 

We should do what we can re public transport (easier in more densely populated areas I should imagine) and at the same time re imagine the car. 

As I see it, EV's are following the ICE vehicles hackneyed trend of bigger = better, higher performance = better and more 'toys' = better. That way madness lies. 

The cars for tomorrow need to be sized to their probable usage especially in terms of passenger carrying ability, they need to be safe, have adequate and not insane performance and they need to be cheap to buy and run. 

First base for me would be to limit performance - 0-62 mph in 3 seconds etc and top speeds of 100, 150, 200 mph are utterly ludicrous. This may help some people get off of the performance dog *issing contest for starters. 

Seriously, I have friends with some very fast cars and to hear them talk of specifying new cars with another eg 25 bhp more than their current huge bhp car is beyond belief. They talk of shaving 0.1 seconds off of 0-62mph or 0-100mph times. How utterly absurd and out of step with the world we now live in.


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## figbat (7 Mar 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> What would be the incentive for private car owners to ferry four other people about? What will it take for you to carry four other passengers every time you head out in your car?


Not forgetting that a bus's occupancy rate will rise and fall during a journey, whereas a personal car will tend to be fixed for the journey. I see loads of empty buses driving through my village but we're at the end of the route - I assume that the same buses will have more people on board through the central part of the route, covering larger towns and city.


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## glasgowcyclist (7 Mar 2022)

On days when I frequently got the bus to work, it was packed full by the time it's a third of the journey in. It was even busier on the way home. So much so that I would walk further back along the route to an earlier bus stop to get on. 

Buses are very efficient movers of many people. The problems are: that public transport costs have risen enormously compared to the continually subsidised private car, and too many people use their car like an overcoat.


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## jowwy (7 Mar 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> What would be the incentive for private car owners to ferry four other people about? What will it take for you to carry four other passengers every time you head out in your car?


im talking more about commuting with others too work, that can be done, not direct travel to shops, shopping etc etc .........but then again buses would be the same. what incentives could be used for people to swap their private cars for buses, when some communities dont even have bus routes or networks available to them. 

Also who's going to carry the little old ladies/gentleman or single mothers with prams and bugggies, shopping bags in and out of the buses and to their homes???.......lets talk real world here and not some fantasy in your head

but again the pictures you posted are not representing the truth, its just a folly


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## jowwy (7 Mar 2022)

glasgowcyclist said:


> On days when I frequently got the bus to work, it was packed full by the time it's a third of the journey in. It was even busier on the way home. So much so that I would walk further back along the route to an earlier bus stop to get on.
> 
> *Buses are very efficient movers of many people. The problems are: that public transport costs have risen enormously compared to the continually subsidised private car, and too many people use their car like an overcoat.*


are they really??? not withstanding the fact many communities dont have bus routes or networks that go anywhere near were the live or work....so not as efficient as people may think

and what do you mean by subsidised private cars??


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## jowwy (7 Mar 2022)

we have a member of staff that does use the bus for work. to be able to be at the office the usual 9am start time, she has to set off from home at 7-00am........so thats 4hrs extra per day, to use the bus service to and from work, ludicrous

not only that, but at the office end, she has at least a 3/4 mile walk from the closest bus stop to the office


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## SpokeyDokey (7 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> we have a member of staff that does use the bus for work. to be able to be at the office the usual 9am start time, she has to set off from home at 7-00am........so thats 4hrs extra per day, to use the bus service to and from work, ludicrous



The reality is that there is no one size fits all solution. 

It's certainly not public transport imo.


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## Phaeton (7 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> we have a member of staff that does use the bus for work. to be able to be at the office the usual 9am start time, she has to set off from home at 7-00am........so thats 4hrs extra per day, to use the bus service to and from work, ludicrous


Are you sure it's 4 hours extra, if she used a car it wouldn't be instant therefore some allowance needs to be made for car journey time, also if she doesn't have any other form of transport it's not extra, it's just the time it takes.


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## jowwy (7 Mar 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Are you sure it's 4 hours extra, if she used a car it wouldn't be instant therefore some allowance needs to be made for car journey time, also if she doesn't have any other form of transport it's not extra, it's just the time it takes.


all im saying is that using public transport adds 4hrs to her work day lets say........if she used a car, it would probably be around 45mins each way

so thats 2.5hrs less, that she could use for herself. people are saying that public transport/buses are an efficient way of moving people around, but in reality its not


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## Phaeton (7 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> all im saying is that using public transport adds 4hrs to her work day lets say........if she used a car, it would probably be around 45mins each way
> 
> so thats 2.5hrs less, that she could use for herself. people are saying that public transport/buses are an efficient way of moving people around, but in reality its not


It all depends where you live, my nephew who lives in London at the age of 45 still hasn't a driving license, he uses, bike, bus, tube, but his brother lives in a village in North Lincolnshire where there is no bus service, the local school closed so he has to have a car to take the girls to school, okay I suppose he doesn't HAVE to have a car, but is it realistic to go twice a day 5 miles each way without one?


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## winjim (7 Mar 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> The reality is that there is no one size fits all solution.
> 
> It's certainly not public transport imo.


Public transport can and should be part of the solution, as should active transport. But in my view, and this also relates to issues other than transport, what is needed is a reappraisal of how we as a society view work, and childcare, and education, and the way we organise our lives and our homes and our communities around those things. It did seem like the pandemic in the beginning might have provoked some thinking along those lines but it doesn't seem to have lasted.

It's a big issue and probably not one for this section of the forum but it impacts on everything.


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## jowwy (7 Mar 2022)

Phaeton said:


> *It all depends where you live*, my nephew who lives in London at the age of 45 still hasn't a driving license, he uses, bike, bus, tube, but his brother lives in a village in North Lincolnshire where there is no bus service, the local school closed so he has to have a car to take the girls to school, okay I suppose he doesn't HAVE to have a car, but is it realistic to go twice a day 5 miles each way without one?


thats what we are saying, its not a fit all solution......some dont have access


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## Ming the Merciless (7 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> .Also who's going to carry the little old ladies/gentleman or single mothers with prams and bugggies, shopping bags in and out of the buses and to their homes???.......lets talk real world here and not some fantasy in your head



Have you never been in a bus? Prams and shopping bags are carried on buses all the time. Those who get around on foot and use public transport tend to be more robust than the average person who prefers to drive most times.


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## jowwy (7 Mar 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> *1. Have you never been in a bus?* *2.* *Prams and shopping bags are carried on buses all the time*. Those who get around on foot and use public transport tend to be more robust than the average person who prefers to drive most times.


1. yes i have - i took a bus from anfield to the malmaison hotel on liverpool dock.....on both occassions it was a fairly long walk at either end of the journey......

2. do they also help them being carried to the bus from the shop and then off the bus to the house too?? if using a private car you can take the trolley to the car and load up, cant take a trolley to the bus......and with a car, you can park outside the house or on the drive and then unload. cant do that with a bus.......your trying to promote an all in one solution, which is not practical to everyone

i',m guessing not on point 2


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## Phaeton (7 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> thats what we are saying, its not a fit all solution......some dont have access


Not all London cyclists understand this, they like the Government believe what's good for them is good for everybody in the country.


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## Ming the Merciless (7 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> 1. yes i have - i took a bus from anfield to the malmaison hotel on liverpool dock.....on both occassions it was a fairly long walk at either end of the journey......
> 
> 2. do they also help them being carried to the bus from the shop and then off the bus to the house too?? if using a private car you can take the trolley to the car and load up, cant take a trolley to the bus......and with a car, you can park outside the house or on the drive and then unload. cant do that with a bus.......your trying to promote an all in one solution, which is not practical to everyone
> 
> i',m guessing not on point 2



Shopping by bus is easy , not everyone is in such poor physical shape, that they can’t carry their shopping from the bus to home.


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## jowwy (7 Mar 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Shopping by bus is easy , not everyone is in such poor physical shape, that they can’t carry their shopping from the bus to home.


again, not read what i have written.....nothing new here

come to rural south wales and try and do your weekly shop by bus..........ahhh what bus, is what some will tell you


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## Electric_Andy (7 Mar 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Are you sure it's 4 hours extra, if she used a car it wouldn't be instant therefore some allowance needs to be made for car journey time, also if she doesn't have any other form of transport it's not extra, it's just the time it takes.


Likewise here. I used the bus once when my car was in for MOT. I got the walked 10 minutes to get the 8.10 bus, it went around the houses dropping off school kids, it took an hour and then I had a 10 minute walk to the office. In the car I used to do it in 15 minutes. 

In theory buses sound like a very good and greener solution, but only in compact cites with good infrastructure. In large (area) cities like mine, the roads are just too small so dedicated bus lanes and even pull-in bus stops are impossible.


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## classic33 (7 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> 1. yes i have - i took a bus from anfield to the malmaison hotel on liverpool dock.....on both occassions it was a fairly long walk at either end of the journey......
> 
> 2. do they also help them being carried to the bus from the shop and then off the bus to the house too?? if using a private car you can take the trolley to the car and load up, cant take a trolley to the bus......and with a car, you can park outside the house or on the drive and then unload. cant do that with a bus.......your trying to promote an all in one solution, which is not practical to everyone
> 
> i',m guessing not on point 2


With raised kerbs at bus stops, kneeling buses and ramps on buses, it's more like walking on one level.

As for trolleys, have you seen the number of ways that bags can now be attached/carried on a pram! They even have oversized HMS karabiners that allow bags to be carried. Those along with the growing trend in home deliveries kinda knocks any worries over not being able to carry your shopping.

And I've seen a few who can't be bothered carrying the shopping to their car opting for home delivery.


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## mjr (7 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> come to rural south wales and try and do your weekly shop by bus..........ahhh what bus, is what some will tell you


1, I've been doing almost all our shopping in rural Norfolk and before that rural Somerset by bike for years.

2, "your weekly shop" is an unhealthy development caused by motoring being so farking awful and inappropriate for daily life that people eat preserved and processed food instead of fresh for most of the week. Much food stays fresh for a few days, so you need to buy the fresh stuff twice a week or more often. That's very easy when you're on a bike and can stop as you pass a greengrocer's or farm to pick up a few items while on your way home from work or an appointment. It should also be pretty easy when you're using buses and can pop into a shop near your boarding stop if there's a few minutes, or by the stop where you get off in your village or estate centre.

A demand that buses or bikes perpetuate the "weekly shop" mistake is a demand that buses or bikes pretend to be cars. It's a demand of people who don't want improvements in public health. It's not a demand that should be heeded.


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## jowwy (7 Mar 2022)

mjr said:


> 1, I've been doing almost all our shopping in rural Norfolk and before that rural Somerset *1. by bike for years.*
> 
> 2, "your weekly shop" is an unhealthy development caused by motoring being so farking awful and inappropriate for daily life that people eat preserved and processed food instead of fresh for most of the week. Much food stays fresh for a few days, so you need to buy the fresh stuff twice a week or more often. That's very easy when you're on a bike and can stop as you pass a greengrocer's or farm to pick up a few items while on your way home from work or an appointment. *It should also be pretty easy when you're using buses and can pop into a shop near your boarding stop if there's a few minutes, or by the stop where you get off in your village or estate centre.*
> 
> A demand that buses or bikes perpetuate the "weekly shop" mistake is a demand that buses or bikes pretend to be cars. It's a demand of people who don't want improvements in public health. It's not a demand that should be heeded.


1. again not everyone can do that or even wants to....again just cause you do it, doesn't mean everyone else has too, its just not practical for everyone

2. seriously........easy to drop on and off bus, again this is rural south wales, not a city like somerset or norfolk. My brother lives in crickhowell, with zero shopping centres, just a small town. nearest shopping town abergavenny, brecon or over the mountain into ebbw vale........not an easy bus route or regular bus route to undertake anything you just said. He also works in hereford, defo no bus route from crickhowell to hereford for the times he needs to be at the barracks during the day ( now a civilian army contractor).......

a bus is not in the solution for everyones needs, it just isnt


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## mjr (7 Mar 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Cars are here to stay imo - they are too convenient to give up, are nigh on essential for a good number of people for various reasons and universal, quality and user-friendly public transport is never going to happen on cost grounds.


I agree that cars are here to stay and are currently "nigh on essential" but I disagree that they are convenient (unless you close your eyes to the true costs) or that universal transport service is too expensive... but maybe we differ on how friendly "user-friendly" should be.

The current level of car use is not here to stay, though. It's completely out of control and proportion and unsustainable. Cory Doctorow has said "geometry hates cars" and he has a point: there simply isn't enough space in our historic towns, cities and villages for everyone to be dragging around a 4m x2m metal box and definitely not with 12m or more of headway. We shouldn't flatted more history to make space and EVs will not solve this. Making cars slightly smaller will not solve this, not until they become smaller than 2m x1m and use a bit of human power and a 15-20mph top speed to reduce the size of the heavy battery being carried around... and hey presto, we've reinvented e-bikes.

So then we need something for longer and faster journeys, which will be mass transport, trains and medium/long-distance buses, so I disagree about where public transport is needed most: it's to span the sparsely-populated gaps more than move people around densely-populated areas. People can walk and bike most smaller densely-populated areas.


> We should do what we can re public transport (easier in more densely populated areas I should imagine) and at the same time re imagine the car.
> 
> As I see it, EV's are following the ICE vehicles hackneyed trend of bigger = better, higher performance = better and more 'toys' = better. That way madness lies.


Yep, EVs are losing the plot because they're being sold as glamour goods, not transport. The main thing EVs do is remove the "cost of fuel" discouragement of/limit on car use for those rich enough to afford an EV.



> First base for me would be to limit performance - 0-62 mph in 3 seconds etc and top speeds of 100, 150, 200 mph are utterly ludicrous. This may help some people get off of the performance dog *issing contest for starters.


Has anywhere ever legislated to do that?


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## jowwy (7 Mar 2022)

most on here commenting only from a cyclists point of view.....this is the motoring section.

saying people can walk/bike smaller densely populated areas is nonsense....as for trains, that will mean digging up large cycle networks here in wales, as trains were stopped from the area i live, way before i was born. They aint rebuilding the train networks to these areas and they not running buses to most of these areas either.......not practical or cost efficient


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## mjr (7 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> 1. again not everyone can do that or even wants to....again just cause you do it, doesn't mean everyone else has too, its just not practical for everyone


I'm not saying everyone else has to. I'm not saying it's practical for everyone. I'm just answering your challenge which implied that it's practical for no-one, which is completely wrong.



> 2. seriously........easy to drop on and off bus, again this is rural south wales, not a city like somerset or norfolk.


Norfolk's one city is a long way from the fens. I look out of my window and I see my next door neighbour's house, then the next nearest are 3 miles away on the ridge on the edge of the fens. In Somerset, I could see a couple of terraces down hill from me, but mostly across the channel to the South Wales hills. Even Somerset's cities are mostly small.



> My brother lives in crickhowell, with zero shopping centres, just a small town. nearest shopping town abergavenny, brecon or over the mountain into ebbw vale........not an easy bus route or regular bus route to undertake anything you just said.


Crickhowell, population 2000, is a small town, bigger than where I live in Norfolk or used to live in Somerset.

A regular bus route (X43) takes 10 minutes direct into Abergavenny. It's not frequent enough and there's no through tickets onto the trains to Newport and Cardiff, or Hereford, but it's wrong to say it doesn't exist.



> He also works in hereford, defo no bus route from crickhowell to hereford for the times he needs to be at the barracks during the day ( now a civilian army contractor).......
> 
> a bus is not in the solution for everyones needs, it just isnt


Buses and trains could and should be the solution for easy things like commuting from a town to a major employment site, either direct or with one change. It's not the solution yet, but it would cost a hell of a lot less in the long run to make it so than to keep propping up inappropriate motoring.


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## jowwy (7 Mar 2022)

mjr said:


> *1. I'm not saying everyone else has to. I'm not saying it's practical for everyone. I'm just answering your challenge which implied that it's practical for no-one, which is completely wrong.*
> 
> 
> Norfolk's one city is a long way from the fens. I look out of my window and I see my next door neighbour's house, then the next nearest are 3 miles away on the ridge on the edge of the fens. In Somerset, I could see a couple of terraces down hill from me, but mostly across the channel to the South Wales hills. Even Somerset's cities are mostly small.
> ...


1. i didnt say it was practical for no-one, i said for some

2. i never said it didnt exist, i said infrequent.......or not regular. it also doesnt stop anywhere near were they live in crickhowell. Again your just looking at something on a map, looking at a bus table route and saying, yeh they got buses

3. you would have to destroy a lot of infrastructure, rural areas and other roads, paths etc etc to get the trains back into the areas around were a live. not practical and certainly not cost effective


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## mjr (7 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> most on here commenting only from a cyclists point of view.....this is the motoring section.


Oh, I'm a motorist as well, but I don't think being a motorist means we have to accept all the nonsense other motorists spout about how motoring must be essential or is inevitable or a good thing.



> saying people can walk/bike smaller densely populated areas is nonsense....


I think you should probably give some reasoning why you think that. It seems obviously true from what we see in many other places. Do Welsh people not have legs? Do they have no sense of balance?



> as for trains, that will mean digging up large cycle networks here in wales, as trains were stopped from the area i live, way before i was born. They aint rebuilding the train networks to these areas and they not running buses to most of these areas either.......not practical or cost efficient


I'm pretty sure Wales still has many trains. I also doubt many old lines will be reopened, especially where they've been recycled, but often a high-quality bus corridor could replace them in a very practical way. There seem to be rather perverse incentives for bus operators currently, with it looking like they hunt easy wins like meandering services seemingly aimed at senior bus-pass holders instead of developing fast main-road express transport services. And the bus operators get hurt by the cost of fuel even more than car users, which probably makes them quite conservative.


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## jowwy (7 Mar 2022)

mjr said:


> Oh, I'm a motorist as well, but I don't think being a motorist means we have to accept all the nonsense other motorists spout about how motoring must be essential or is inevitable or a good thing.
> 
> 
> *I think you should probably give some reasoning why you think that. It seems obviously true from what we see in many other places. Do Welsh people not have legs? Do they have no sense of balance?*
> ...


the topography of wales, isnt the same as the flat lands of england........there's a saying around here, that if you flattened off wales it would end up bigger than england.

were we live in wales, nearest train station is ebbw vale and that only goes to cardiff.....next station is abergavenny circa 8 miles away, can go to various cities like newport/cardiff, can even go to hereford. but would require a car to get to the station.

brother in crickhowell, ZERO trains into crickhowell, closest abergavenny, again would need a car, buses not regular enough to plan a car free route or day out.

Honestly you english cyclists think it simple to do everything by bike, but it aint in the valleys of rural south wales....trust me


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## mjr (7 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> 1. i didnt say it was practical for no-one, i said for some


Maybe that's what you meant but "come to rural south wales and try" is pretty much suggesting it's impossible in rural areas, which is simply untrue. I don't know about rural South Wales, but there are still even shopper special buses around here, which I think are really crap services because it limits your choice so much, but shopping by bus is blatantly possible and practical for many. It's a lot easier if you still live on a interurban bus route with better-than-hourly service, though.



jowwy said:


> 2. i never said it didnt exist, i said infrequent.......or not regular


It is regular, roughly 2-hourly. You said it wasn't easy or regular, nothing about frequency. I agreed it's not frequent enough to be good transport.


----------



## mjr (7 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> the topography of wales, isnt the same as the flat lands of england........


...except the flat bits of Glamorgan coast that I could see from the steep Somerset hillside where I used to live! Both have variations.



> there's a saying around here, that if you flattened off wales it would end up bigger than england.


Another example of the local delusions?



> were we live in wales, nearest train station is ebbw vale and that only goes to cardiff.....next station is abergavenny circa 8 miles away, can go to various cities like newport/cardiff, can even go to hereford. but would require a car to get to the station.
> 
> brother in crickhowell, ZERO trains into crickhowell, closest abergavenny, again would need a car, buses not regular enough to plan a car free route or day out.
> 
> Honestly you english cyclists think it simple to do everything by bike, but it aint in the valleys of rural south wales....trust me


It ain't simple... but the way it is isn't the way it has to be. Why does Abergavenny station require cars? Fix it! Why aren't the buses frequent enough to support days out? Fix it! Another way is possible... or do the Welsh have an even worse "can't do" attitude than the English?


----------



## SpokeyDokey (7 Mar 2022)

mjr said:


> I agree that cars are here to stay and are currently "nigh on essential" but I disagree that they are convenient (unless you close your eyes to the true costs) or that universal transport service is too expensive... but maybe we differ on how friendly "user-friendly" should be.
> 
> The current level of car use is not here to stay, though. It's completely out of control and proportion and unsustainable. Cory Doctorow has said "geometry hates cars" and he has a point: there simply isn't enough space in our historic towns, cities and villages for everyone to be dragging around a 4m x2m metal box and definitely not with 12m or more of headway. We shouldn't flatted more history to make space and EVs will not solve this. Making cars slightly smaller will not solve this, not until they become smaller than 2m x1m and use a bit of human power and a 15-20mph top speed to reduce the size of the heavy battery being carried around... and hey presto, we've reinvented e-bikes.
> 
> ...


I can assure you that cars are very convenient for us despite the costs involved. 

We can go round and round re buses and public infrastructure but, in most rural areas, it isn't feasible. 

Re bikes - not everyone wants to ride a bike. Some cyclists do not seem to understand this. Our village has an older population in the main and tbh even the fit few who do cycle find the 14% final hill a bit of an effort - and that's unencumbered with shopping. 

Again, pie in the sky, that we are going to be a nation of happy cyclists. Might work in the flatlands but hilly parts of Wales, Scotland and England - dream on.


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## Ming the Merciless (7 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> 2. seriously........easy to drop on and off bus, again this is rural south wales, not a city like somerset or norfolk. My brother lives in crickhowell, with zero shopping centres, just a small town. nearest shopping town abergavenny,



A 30 min cycle ride or 24 mins on the bus to Abergavenny. It’s also along a pretty flat route, I’ve ridden it many a time. It’s hardly a route crossing the Himalayas is it? By the time you brother finds somewhere to park, then gets back to his car, it has not really saved much time at all, has it?


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## jowwy (7 Mar 2022)

mjr said:


> *1*....*except the flat bits of Glamorgan coast that I could see from the steep Somerset hillside where I used to live! Both have variations.
> 
> 
> 2. Another example of the local delusions?*
> ...


1. i would expect most things at sea level to be flat to be honest, especially along a coastline...think your being a bit picky to be honest.

2. i mean i live at 1500ft above sea level, it aint flat around here

3. how else do you get there???

4. Not cost effective for the bus companies to do so, so they no longer run frequent enough uses to the ares needed or in some cases stopped them altogether

5. That would cost a huge influx of money either from a tory government via an increase of the barnet formula or by raising taxes in wales to pay for it, which is not devolved to welsh government ( tax powers are held at westminster)


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## jowwy (7 Mar 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> *1. A 30 min cycle ride* or 24 mins on the bus to Abergavenny. It’s also along a pretty flat route, I’ve ridden it many a time. It’s hardly a route crossing the Himalayas is it? By the time you brother finds somewhere to park, then gets back to his car, it has not really saved much time at all, has it?


again - your coming at it form a cyclists point of view.....my brother aint and has no wish to be one. its also about 10 mins by car, it hardly takes a further 15 to park etc etc etc

again your being pretty picky and pedantic.....not everyone, wants to live your way of life.

1. ever done that ride with a weekly shop on your bike, after a days work or with maybe 1, 2 or 3 of his kids in tow.......


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## mjr (7 Mar 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> I can assure you that cars are very convenient for us despite the costs involved.


You keep on kidding yourself. Please remember this discussion next time you're looking for some unusual car repair part, or sitting at the mechanics while they do the same at a higher cost to you.



> Re bikes - not everyone wants to ride a bike. Some cyclists do not seem to understand this.


I can understand it, like I can understand people wanting to drive instead of using buses, but people need to be honest and say it's really their wants, and not lie that it's somehow impossible, impractical, infeasible, or whatever not to use a car.


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## nickyboy (7 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> again - your coming at it form a cyclists point of view.....my brother aint and has no wish to be one. its also about 10 mins by car, it hardly takes a further 15 to park etc etc etc
> 
> again your being pretty picky and pedantic.....not everyone, wants to live your way of life.
> 
> 1. ever done that ride with a weekly shop on your bike, after a days work or with maybe 1, 2 or 3 of his kids in tow.......


Remember when I commented that you must be the unluckiest poster on CC given the number of arguments you're unfortunate enough to get into?


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## jowwy (7 Mar 2022)

nickyboy said:


> Remember when I commented that you must be the unluckiest poster on CC given the number of arguments you're unfortunate enough to get into?


i think this is a discussion/debate....no one is arguing or falling out with each other. 

are we not allowed to discuss/debate any longer?? has CC now become North korea or china were no discussion/debate/difference of opinion is allowed to take place.......???


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## jowwy (7 Mar 2022)

mjr said:


> You keep on kidding yourself. Please remember this discussion next time you're looking for some unusual car repair part, or sitting at the mechanics while they do the same at a higher cost to you.
> 
> 
> I can understand it, like I can understand people wanting to drive instead of using buses, *but people need to be honest and say it's really their wants, and not lie that it's somehow impossible, impractical, infeasible, or whatever not to use a car.*


no one is saying that, we just live in the real world......unlike some cyclists in this thread


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## SpokeyDokey (7 Mar 2022)

mjr said:


> You keep on kidding yourself. Please remember this discussion next time you're looking for some unusual car repair part, or sitting at the mechanics while they do the same at a higher cost to you.
> 
> 
> I can understand it, like I can understand people wanting to drive instead of using buses, but people need to be honest and say it's really their wants, and not lie that it's somehow impossible, impractical, infeasible, or whatever not to use a car.



What are you, an authority on local terrain right across the UK?

You use some strong words eg 'lie' which is rather rude especially as you are clueless to everyone's personal circumstances.


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## figbat (7 Mar 2022)

We have made cars essential to our livelihoods and lifestyles because we have built our lifestyles and livelihoods around them. To take away (or significantly reduce) car use means a similar repositioning of our livelihoods and lifestyles to fit. We can't simply take away cars and expect to carry on unaffected. The size of that effect will depend on individual circumstances and the willingness to make a change. It is, in many ways, looking at making a backwards step in social development if we are to restrict our travelling, although one might add it is a benefit to society if it brings an associated improvement to the environment.


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## jowwy (7 Mar 2022)

ive used my brother as evidence it isnt easy to get around rural south wales, by train, bus or bike.......and i can 100% guarantee unequivocally that there will never be, ever has been or ever will be a bus route or train route to my brothers place of work or any way of getting there by bike.

The end

ps until he moves to australia at the end of the month and im not sure were he will live or work over there


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## Dogtrousers (7 Mar 2022)

mjr said:


> Maybe that's what you meant but "come to rural south wales and try" is pretty much suggesting it's impossible in rural areas, which is simply untrue.


My parents used to live in moderately rural S. Wales. Not the middle of nowhere, mind. There was a bus service between the village and the nearest town (Abergavenny). My mum, who never learned to drive, would walk ~5 miles into town, get her shopping and get the bus back. Now, admittedly, that did rely on a bus service. Most of the neighbours thought she was mad, especially when she steadfastly refused all offers of lifts in all weathers - because she liked the walk.


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## All uphill (7 Mar 2022)

The situation we are in (car dependent) is imo the result of many factors:

Increasing wealth inequality. Lots of infrequently used campervans round here. Lots of shiny status symbol cars.
Other parts of town have dirty buses and bsos.

Tension between individual freedom ( I want a gas guzzler, and I'm going to have one), vs what is good for our whole society.

Status displays. How better to tell yourself that you are doing well than by buying an expensive car and/or campervan? We've found it instructive to tell our neighbours that we plan to go car free!

It's the social norm to have a car, less so to have good walking shoes and coat!

While transport has these social functions I think it's going to be difficult to find better solutions; the ridiculously fast, big and heavy EVs demonstrate that.


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## mjr (7 Mar 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> What are you, an authority on local terrain right across the UK?


What are you, an non-sequitur generator?



> You use some strong words eg 'lie' which is rather rude especially as you are clueless to everyone's personal circumstances.


Incorrect claims are made without restriction to personal circumstances. Stuff like "it is impossible" is not "it is impossible for me" where we might suspect it is still that they do not want to make the changes needed to make low-car life possible but couldn't disprove it.

You can think calling incorrect claims "lies" rude if you want but it will still be less rude than, for example, unnecessarily shooting exhaust fumes into childrens' lungs or enriching warmongers more.


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## jowwy (7 Mar 2022)

mjr said:


> What are you, an non-sequitur generator?
> 
> 
> Incorrect claims are made without restriction to personal circumstances. Stuff like "it is impossible" is not "it is impossible for me" where we might suspect it is still that they do not want to make the changes needed to make low-car life possible but couldn't disprove it.
> ...


most pathetic comments i have heard in this thread.........

using a car means im killing children and enriching warmongers is absolutely pathetic


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## FishFright (7 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> So can cars with the right incentives too………ive never seen a bus filled to capacity, not my old school bus back in the day


I used to commute on a bus and in the commuter hours they were rammed every day .


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## SpokeyDokey (7 Mar 2022)

mjr said:


> What are you, an non-sequitur generator?
> 
> 
> Incorrect claims are made without restriction to personal circumstances. Stuff like "it is impossible" is not "it is impossible for me" where we might suspect it is still that they do not want to make the changes needed to make low-car life possible but couldn't disprove it.
> ...



Oh dear - that went extreme very quickly and rather oddly. 🥱


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## jowwy (7 Mar 2022)

FishFright said:


> I used to commute on a bus and in the commuter hours they were rammed every day .


where you live that may well be, but not where i live and that's what we are saying.......its not the same for everyone

last time i sat on a packed bus, was in my school days. 28+yrs ago before people started taking their kids to school by car and the local council and schools paid for transport to and from the school


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## FishFright (7 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> where you live that may well be, but not where i live and that's what we are saying.......its not the same for everyone
> 
> last time i sat on a packed bus, was in my school days. 28+yrs ago before people started taking their kids to school by car and the local council and schools paid for transport to and from the school



jowwy said:
……ive never seen a bus filled to capacity, not my old school bus back in the day

jowwy also said:
last time i sat on a packed bus, was in my school days.

What will jowwy say next?


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## jowwy (7 Mar 2022)

FishFright said:


> jowwy said:
> ……ive never seen a bus filled to capacity, not my old school bus back in the day
> 
> jowwy also said:
> ...


packed bus...i didnt say full to capacity, theres a difference in the two comments.

what will @FishFright get wrong next


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## nickyboy (7 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> most pathetic comments i have heard in this thread.........
> 
> using a car means im killing children and enriching warmongers is absolutely pathetic


This is beginning to sound a bit less like a "discussion/debate"


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## FishFright (7 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> packed bus...i didnt say full to capacity, theres a difference in the two comments.
> 
> what will @FishFright get wrong next



Show me a packed bus that's not full


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## vickster (7 Mar 2022)

FishFright said:


> Show me a packed bus that's not full


Suppose it depends on your definition of 'packed'? Maybe it's different in rural Wales on Wednesday lunchtime versus say rush hour in London when there's a tube strike on!


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## Ming the Merciless (7 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> again - your coming at it form a cyclists point of view.....my brother aint and has no wish to be one. its also about 10 mins by car, it hardly takes a further 15 to park etc etc etc
> 
> again your being pretty picky and pedantic.....not everyone, wants to live your way of life.
> 
> 1. ever done that ride with a weekly shop on your bike, after a days work or with maybe 1, 2 or 3 of his kids in tow.......



I offered both cycling and public transport . I didn’t offer it from a pure cyclists point of view, unlike you presenting a pure motorist point of view. I find it hard to believe that 24 mins on a bus to Abergavenny is really too much for you brother to deal with. Does he hate public transport that much?


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## classic33 (7 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> 1. again not everyone can do that or even wants to....*again just cause you do it, doesn't mean everyone else has too, *its just not practical for everyone
> 
> 2. seriously........easy to drop on and off bus, again this is rural south wales, not a city like somerset or norfolk. My brother lives in crickhowell, with zero shopping centres, just a small town. nearest shopping town abergavenny, brecon or over the mountain into ebbw vale........not an easy bus route or regular bus route to undertake anything you just said. He also works in hereford, defo no bus route from crickhowell to hereford for the times he needs to be at the barracks during the day ( now a civilian army contractor).......
> 
> a bus is not in the solution for everyones needs, it just isnt


That bit in bold goes for driving as well. How do are those of us who can't drive supposed to manage?
Learning is not a valid option, nor a legal one.


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## nickyboy (7 Mar 2022)

FishFright said:


> Show me a packed bus that's not full


Buses can be packed and not full at the same time if you're observing said bus passing you. Quantum public transport


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## Ming the Merciless (7 Mar 2022)

I saw a packed sardine can once, but it wasn’t full.


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## jowwy (7 Mar 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> I offered both cycling and public transport . I didn’t offer it from a pure cyclists point of view, unlike you presenting a pure motorist point of view. I find it hard to believe that 24 mins on a bus to Abergavenny is really too much for you brother to deal with. Does he hate public transport that much?


With 3 kids under 5 in tow yeh….anybody would. Not everyone wants to use public transport or a bike……..need to learn that everyone is like you.


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## jowwy (7 Mar 2022)

nickyboy said:


> This is beginning to sound a bit less like a "discussion/debate"


Thats what happens when name calling enters the fray and your accused of being a warmonger….but i see you copied my post and not the post of the accuser……..same as most people, the one defending themselves get the finger pointed at.


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## gavroche (7 Mar 2022)

Well, I am glad it was only a rumour. I have bought some petrol at lunch time in Sainsbury's and it was 1.499 a litre. 
What I didn't realise though is that this thread would go as far as 15 pages !!


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## jowwy (7 Mar 2022)

classic33 said:


> That bit in bold goes for driving as well. How do are those of us who can't drive supposed to manage?
> Learning is not a valid option, nor a legal one.


It does….im not saying it doesnt or trying to convince people like others, that cycling is the eutopia to fix all, cause its not.


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## jowwy (7 Mar 2022)

gavroche said:


> Well, I am glad it was only a rumour. I have bought some petrol at lunch time in Sainsbury's and it was 1.499 a litre.
> What I didn't realise though is that this thread would go as far as 15 pages !!


Like a posted previously……its not a rumour, i posted a fact from welsh governement that states a petrol station in swansea charging 189.9 for diesel


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## jowwy (7 Mar 2022)

nickyboy said:


> This is beginning to sound a bit less like a "discussion/debate"


A train can be packed, but still have capacity by law for more people to go aboard, buses are the same. Our school bus was packed, but still had empty seats for more…..


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## jowwy (7 Mar 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> I saw a packed sardine can once, but it wasn’t full.


I seen a packed shopping bag once, but it wasnt full……same as my suitcase for my holdiay was packed, but not full


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## gavroche (7 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> Like a posted previously……its not a rumour, i posted a fact from welsh governement that states a petrol station in swansea charging 189.9 for diesel


That may be the case is South Wales but not here in North Wales. Even Shell charge 1.699 for petrol so a long way off the 2 pounds although I am not saying it won't happen, at least as long as the war carries on in Ukraine.


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## jowwy (7 Mar 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> I offered both cycling and public transport . I didn’t offer it from a pure cyclists point of view, unlike you presenting a pure motorist point of view. I find it hard to believe that 24 mins on a bus to Abergavenny is really too much for you brother to deal with. Does he hate public transport that much?


I also stated why he couldnt use public transport for work, but i see you totally missed that post…..nothing new there though, only see what you want to see


----------



## jowwy (7 Mar 2022)

gavroche said:


> That may be the case is South Wales but not here in North Wales. Even Shell charge 1.699 for petrol so a long way off the 2 pounds although I am not saying it won't happen, at least as long as the war carries on in Ukraine.


Its different everywhere gavroche, but as i live in south wales and my eyes cant see all over the world. I can only see it from a south wales point of view……unlike others who think they know everything aboit every part of the uk, cause they rode there once on their bike


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## DCLane (7 Mar 2022)

To bring it back onto topic petrol's gone up today to £1.60 a litre where I am, £1.70 for diesel.

I can see people choosing between food, gas/electric, petrol rather than looking at substitutes. More cars on the road than usual, but also more food banks opening.


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## fossyant (7 Mar 2022)

DCLane said:


> To bring it back onto topic petrol's gone up today to £1.60 a litre where I am, £1.70 for diesel.
> 
> I can see people choosing between food, gas/electric, petrol rather than looking at substitutes. More cars on the road than usual, but also more food banks opening.


Supermarkets are still about £1.50 but Esso is on the rip off locally - much more. Won't even mention BP


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## mjr (7 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> most pathetic comments i have heard in this thread.........
> 
> using a car means im killing children and enriching warmongers is absolutely pathetic


I thought you said all of your car use was necessary? Which is it? This would be a far better discussion if you didn't keep changing your mind every few posts.


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## jowwy (7 Mar 2022)

mjr said:


> I thought you said all of your car use was necessary? Which is it? This would be a far better discussion if you didn't keep changing your mind every few posts.


I never said that at all…..maybe you could find that quote???

ive also not changed my mind or become abusive to other posters either. My stance is still the same, cycling, public transport is not the eutopia for everyone. Different circumstances for all, mean different ways of travelling. Doesnt make them child killers or warmongerers, as you stated earlier.


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## mjr (7 Mar 2022)

DCLane said:


> I can see people choosing between food, gas/electric, petrol rather than looking at substitutes. More cars on the road than usual, but also more food banks opening.


Do you really think food banks are helping to keep more cars on the road? 

I'm reminded of the Cuban propaganda poster with people feeding cars sweetcorn, titled "The Madness Of The First World". As usual, it's not easily found online!

I suspect it's going to be worse in rural areas, with widespread oil heating that has no price cap like gas or electricity and is more expensive and polluting anyway. People think that the new electric heating grant scheme was wildly ambitious at 600'000/year: demand may outstrip that this year and the limit will be the number of trained installers.


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## mjr (7 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> I never said that at all…..maybe you could find that quote???


It wasn't a quote (that's why it wasn't in "" or quote tags), but I thought posts like https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/cost-of-fuel.283757/post-6681137 suggested that you felt no other mode of transport was possible for you, seeing as you dismissed trains, buses, bikes and walking, which would mean your car use was necessary. So isn't it, then?


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## jowwy (7 Mar 2022)

mjr said:


> It wasn't a quote (that's why it wasn't in "" or quote tags), but I thought posts like https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/cost-of-fuel.283757/post-6681137 suggested that you felt no other mode of transport was possible for you, seeing as you dismissed trains, buses, bikes and walking, which would mean your car use was necessary. So isn't it, then?


Never assume anything…….i work from home, i dont commute and have my food shopping delivered, my car has been used twice since xmas. The twice that i used my car which was this weekend was to collect on both ocassion 9 x 70ltr bags of compost, could i have done that by bike, train or bus……ummmmm NO.

I also didnt dismiss those modes…..i said they werent easily available to use where i live for work or everyday use and they are not. Maybe you should watch some political programmes and see what they say about public transport infrastructure and why people have issues around the country using them every day to get to places. Rather than throw around stupid remarks about being child killers and warmongerers


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## fossyant (7 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> Never assume anything……



Just press the ignore button against the username - what did they say anyway ?


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## midlife (7 Mar 2022)

£1.72 point 9 for diesel halfway along the A69 on the way home from Newcastle today.


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## Ming the Merciless (7 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> ……..need to learn that everyone is like you.



Everyone is like me? Well that’s news!


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## Ming the Merciless (7 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> Like a posted previously……its not a rumour, i posted a fact from welsh governement that states a petrol station in swansea charging 189.9 for diesel



It is now Monday, where is the mythical £2 a litre price that wasn’t a rumour?


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## fossyant (7 Mar 2022)

Wife comes home tonight... just put £xxx in my car, yadda yadda - fuel is getting expensive - I know you don't use it much anyway, but is it time you looked at a hybrid or electric - me, makes no sense. The car is an 'old' luxury - it just moves bikes now.

The answer is not to use one much if you have the choice !


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## jowwy (7 Mar 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> It is now Monday, where is the mythical £2 a litre price that wasn’t a rumour?


I work from home, it may well be £2 a ltr somewhere, why not prove to me its not???

i also think the 184.9/ltr in swansea that a pointed out in an earlier post is pretty damn close to that mark…..but i was dramatising the situation according to you?


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## Moodyman (7 Mar 2022)

What's all this commotion about fuel prices? 

My car always costs me a tenner.


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## Ming the Merciless (7 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> I work from home, it may well be £2 a ltr somewhere, why not prove to me its not???
> 
> i also think the 184.9/ltr in swansea that a pointed out in an earlier post is pretty damn close to that mark…..but i was dramamtising the situation according to you?



You said it wasn’t a rumour, the burden on you is to prove it wasn’t a rumour via two things. Revealing the official source that said it would be £2 per litre today, and what locations now have this price.


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## Brandane (7 Mar 2022)

gavroche said:


> Well, I am glad it was only a rumour. I have bought some petrol at lunch time in Sainsbury's and it was 1.499 a litre.
> What I didn't realise though is that this thread would go as far as 15 pages !!


15 pages without getting locked (yet) is the surprise 😄.
We have 2 local petrol stations, Gulf and Esso. Both currently 155.9 ppl for the watered down E10 unleaded. Up 6 pence per litre in 4 days.


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## jowwy (7 Mar 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> You said it wasn’t a rumour, the burden on you is to prove it wasn’t a rumour via two things. Revealing the official source that said it would be £2 per litre today, and what locations now have this price.


The is no burden on me im afraid……..


----------



## Ming the Merciless (7 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> The is no burden on me im afraid……..



Ah so it was a rumour and you were just being a contrarian for the sake of it.


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## Brandane (7 Mar 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> You said it wasn’t a rumour, the burden on you is to prove it wasn’t a rumour via two things. Revealing the official source that said it would be £2 per litre today, and what locations now have this price.


Was it not the OP, Gavroche, who said that?
Anyway, this is CC, not the houses of parliament. There is no burden on anyone to prove anything. HTH..


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## Moodyman (7 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> I work from home, it may well be £2 a ltr somewhere, *why not prove to me its not???*
> 
> i also think the 184.9/ltr in swansea that a pointed out in an earlier post is pretty damn close to that mark…..but i was dramatising the situation according to you?



One cannot provide evidence of absence.


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## mjr (7 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> Never assume anything…….i work from home, i dont commute and have my food shopping delivered, my car has been used twice since xmas. The twice that i used my car which was this weekend was to collect on both ocassion 9 x 70ltr bags of compost, could i have done that by bike, train or bus……ummmmm NO.


Look, simple question: is your car use necessary?


> [...] Rather than throw around stupid remarks about being child killers and warmongerers


Not what I wrote. Maybe read more carefully instead of flying off the handle at a misreading.


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## Ming the Merciless (7 Mar 2022)

Brandane said:


> Was it not the OP, Gavroche, who said that?
> Anyway, this is CC, not the houses of parliament. There is no burden on anyone to prove anything. HTH..



It was @jowwy who said it wasn’t a rumour as per his post I quoted.


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## winjim (7 Mar 2022)

Last Thursday.






RAC reporting unleaded averaging 155.6 as of yesterday so I don't think a current max over £2 is exactly implausible.


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## jowwy (7 Mar 2022)

mjr said:


> What are you, an non-sequitur generator?
> 
> 
> Incorrect claims are made without restriction to personal circumstances. Stuff like "it is impossible" is not "it is impossible for me" where we might suspect it is still that they do not want to make the changes needed to make low-car life possible but couldn't disprove it.
> ...


So you didnt type the line in bold???? Was it someone else???


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## jowwy (7 Mar 2022)

winjim said:


> Last Thursday.
> View attachment 634245
> 
> 
> RAC reporting unleaded averaging 155.6 as of yesterday so I don't think a current max over £2 is exactly implausible.


Stop it winjim……it was just a rumour, they are lying i tell you, lying


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## fossyant (7 Mar 2022)

winjim said:


> Last Thursday.
> View attachment 634245
> 
> 
> RAC reporting unleaded averaging 155.6 as of yesterday so I don't think a current max over £2 is exactly implausible.



Costs me a couple of banana's extra in fuel on the bike. It's about £7 a day in car fuel - only in work 2 days though. Glad I've got back to bike commuting, but 13 miles each way down a muddy canal isn't for everyone - yes it's car free - Manchester on the bike on roads in rush hour - not again.

Fuel rise will affect alot of people - there is no one in my family, or the wife's that would ride a bike far.. I don't know that many folk that would do other than a few local loons from here or a minority at work.

We have a bit of a shoot storm coming !


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## jowwy (7 Mar 2022)

fossyant said:


> Costs me a couple of banana's extra in fuel on the bike. It's about £7 a day in car fuel - only in work 2 days though. Glad I've got back to bike commuting, but 13 miles each way down a muddy canal isn't for everyone - yes it's car free - Manchester on the bike on roads in rush hour - not again.
> 
> Fuel rise will affect alot of people - there is no one in my family, or the wife's that would ride a bike far.. I don't know that many folk that would do other than a few local loons from here or a minority at work.
> 
> We have a bit of a shoot storm coming !


Cycling is the only way fossy…..the might of CC has spoken lol


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## fossyant (7 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> Cycling is the only way fossy…..the might of CC has spoken lol



It's not for everyone, as you mentioned in another post.

I was nearly wiped out by an oil tanker today right at the end of my ride - just because truck driver might have had to slow down - shat me up and anyone near me on the pavement - probably full of Russian stuff


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## fossyant (7 Mar 2022)

We also have to accept we're a bit 'weird' on this forum. We aren't normal considering riding a bike far (like more than five miles). I don't use mine for errands because I don't have a bike I could actually leave outside a shop, or would do - I'll walk or car it. 
Bikes are for poor people.


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## cyberknight (7 Mar 2022)

fossyant said:


> Costs me a couple of banana's extra in fuel on the bike. It's about £7 a day in car fuel - only in work 2 days though. Glad I've got back to bike commuting, but 13 miles each way down a muddy canal isn't for everyone - yes it's car free - Manchester on the bike on roads in rush hour - not again.
> 
> Fuel rise will affect alot of people - there is no one in my family, or the wife's that would ride a bike far.. I don't know that many folk that would do other than a few local loons from here or a minority at work.
> 
> We have a bit of a shoot storm coming !


Im having to drive till my shoulder can take commuting by bike again , im driving very conservatively with slow acceleration and no lead foot to try and get as much mpg as i can


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## fossyant (7 Mar 2022)

cyberknight said:


> Im having to drive till my shoulder can take commuting by bike again , im driving very conservatively with slow acceleration and no lead foot to try and get as much mpg as i can


I was once working 30 miles away, with a 2.5l V6 copmany car (not my choice) when the fuel crisis hit 25 years ish ago - panic buying etc... I managed to draft HGV's at a safe distance and get over 40 mpg out of a V6.... I did also, ride in once a week (60 mile return ride)


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## Fab Foodie (7 Mar 2022)

gavroche said:


> Mrs G keeps saying we ought to go to Devon more often. 600 miles return trip it is so my answer is : not likely as the fuel bill would be enormous, over 100 pounds . and that doesn't cover the driving around when we get there.
> Somehow, I don't think she will see my point of view.


It'll soon be cheaper to move there!


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (7 Mar 2022)

Paid 158.9 tonight for diesel and had passed a forecourt that was 174.9... £2/L is coming which would take my fill to somewhere near £150 

I would have no choice other than to pay it and use the van more sparingly, petrol prices aren't much better although the motorbike is easier on fuel, but not always practical and cycling to work is somewhere in the middle on practicality terms.


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## mjr (7 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> So you didnt type the line in bold???? Was it someone else???


Try reading it instead of bolding it. It doesn't call the car users killers or warmongers.


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## cyberknight (7 Mar 2022)

fossyant said:


> I was once working 30 miles away, with a 2.5l V6 copmany car (not my choice) when the fuel crisis hit 25 years ish ago - panic buying etc... I managed to draft HGV's at a safe distance and get over 40 mpg out of a V6.... I did also, ride in once a week (60 mile return ride)


country lanes most of the way for me, you can do 60 but keeping it to 45 mph max and as i work shifts theres not really anyone about to annoy with my steady pace,the car is now payed for so its being kept although we looked at ev s im not forking about a min of £250 a month before electrickery , when im back on the bike i bet we do about 50 miles a week


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## fossyant (7 Mar 2022)

cyberknight said:


> Im having to drive till my shoulder can take commuting by bike again , im driving very conservatively with slow acceleration and no lead foot to try and get as much mpg as i can


Apparently though, if you drive a 600 bhp leccy car with the foot to the floor, you are 'green'. 

We are all fubared, including leccy car drivers as your leccy will go up as it's powered by overseas gas and 'other energy' - I've a 100% green energy tarrif at home, there is no way much of it's really green.

Bike it !!


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## fossyant (7 Mar 2022)

cyberknight said:


> country lanes most of the way for me, you can do 60 but keeping it to 45 mph max and as i work shifts theres not really anyone about to annoy with my steady pace,the car is now payed for so its being kept although we looked at ev s im not forking about a min of £250 a month before electrickery , when im back on the bike i bet we do about 50 miles a week



Lean out the window and 'puff' ! Only work on tail wind days ?


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## mjr (7 Mar 2022)

fossyant said:


> We also have to accept we're a bit 'weird' on this forum. We aren't normal considering riding a bike far (like more than five miles). I don't use mine for errands because I don't have a bike I could actually leave outside a shop, or would do - I'll walk or car it.
> Bikes are for poor people.


Bikes are for poor people with bikes too posh to leave unattended at a shop. Schrödinger's bicycle strikes again.


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## cyberknight (7 Mar 2022)

fossyant said:


> Lean out the window and 'puff' ! Only work on tail wind days ?


i know were off topic so last post by me , prevailing wind is a headwind home  , i could lift share but im restricted work not knowing where i am in the company currently so cant logistically plan my day to match the 2 people i could cadge a lift off locally , like today finished on the buzzer and had to pick mrs ckup from work then mink ck 2 from school so me having the car farks up the family routine even though they want me to pack up cycling


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## classic33 (7 Mar 2022)

mjr said:


> Bikes are for poor people with bikes too posh to leave unattended at a shop. Schrödinger's bicycle strikes again.


What does the above have to do with fuel prices? 

Asking as a non-driver, who'll walk, cycle, bus it or use the train.


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## fossyant (7 Mar 2022)

cyberknight said:


> i know were off topic so last post by me , prevailing wind is a headwind home  , i could lift share but im restricted work not knowing where i am in the company currently so cant logistically plan my day to match the 2 people i could cadge a lift off locally , like today finished on the buzzer and had to pick mrs ckup from work then mink ck 2 from school so me having the car farks up the family routine even though they want me to pack up cycling



I konw it's a mare. Hold your breath in the headwind...  PS My Mrs would rather I never cycled (HUGE history)....


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## mjr (7 Mar 2022)

classic33 said:


> What does the above have to do with fuel prices?


If you shop by bike, you are insulated a bit more (not totally) from fuel price rises.


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## classic33 (7 Mar 2022)

mjr said:


> If you shop by bike, you are insulated a bit more (not totally) from fuel price rises.


And having a decent bike, leaving it outside a shop, is fuel related?


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## jowwy (7 Mar 2022)

If you shopped by bike were i live, you best have plenty of bikes in reserve……


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## fossyant (7 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> If you shopped by bike were i live, you best have plenty of bikes in reserve……



I never take my bikes near shops. Simple. I don't have any newish bikes either, but they aren't a shopper, any of them. Even when I had the fixed gear commuter, it wasn't a shop bike, too expensive - I'm also a bit odd

Bikes to me aren't shopping - it's either a fast commuter or fitness or mad fun. Day to day, then I will need to buy something when old., but walking works well.


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## I like Skol (7 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> my car has been used twice since xmas. The twice that i used my car which was this weekend was to collect on both ocassion 9 x 70ltr bags of compost, could i have done that by bike, train or bus……ummmmm NO.


Would have been far cheaper and practical to have had it delivered or even used a taxi. Your situation still does not justify use or ownership of a private car or demonstrate a necessity for having a life built around car ownership.


jowwy said:


> View attachment 633697
> 
> View attachment 633698





jowwy said:


> after the last two posts - i though i would put this here again - no armchair sensationalism or rumour or self fullfilling prophecy of doom, but actual cold, hard facts
> 
> View attachment 633737





jowwy said:


> no - it was an email sent to me from welsh government with updates for wales. So no not on the internet,


Am I the only one here who has reservations about accepting this propaganda retweet as 'government' fact? This looks and feels much more like a biased party political broadcast than pure govt statistics. I am assuming the source (Which has yet to be revealed. Do the govt really send emails to private individuals just to spread 'news'?) is in reality a user group or forum bulletin where there is a footnote disclaimer stating that views or opinions expressed may not actually reflect official policy of the organisation etc....

Getting back to my previous post re; local fuel pricing. On the same day I posted the price board from my local supermarket I also noted the price at my 'local' petrol station. The supermarket is almost exactly 1 mile from my home. The 'local' is a few hundred yards and was/is charging 159.9p for diesel. Price variation is nothing new or unusual and I bet if I hunted around I could find someone selling at 170p/ltr within a couple of miles. Why is this news or relevant?


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## jowwy (8 Mar 2022)

I like Skol said:


> Would have been far cheaper and practical to have had it delivered or even used a taxi. Your situation still does not justify use or ownership of a private car or demonstrate a necessity for having a life built around car ownership.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Who said it came to me as a private individual????
again making assumptions on something you know nothing about

also someone posted up a few posts ago, fuel prices from confused.com….maybe you dont believe that either.


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## I like Skol (8 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> and cheaper to use taxi ( which is a motor vehicle) honest to god, the drivel that you type is mind blowing.


Cheaper to use a taxi for this one (2?) collection than to own an idle vehicle for months.
But I am wasting my time trying to point out any rationality in my reasoning, as in your irrational world you have already decided my POV, right or wrong, is unacceptable to you because you don't like me or anyone that won't agree with you!
You have claimed it is impossible to live without a car where you live, then gone on to successfully demonstrate that it isn't. This is the stubborn view of the general population and it is going to be difficult to change.


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## jowwy (8 Mar 2022)

I like Skol said:


> Cheaper to use a taxi for this one (2?) collection than to own an idle vehicle for months.
> But I am wasting my time trying to point out any rationality in my reasoning, as in your irrational world you have already decided my POV, right or wrong, is unacceptable to you because you don't like me or anyone that won't agree with you!
> You have claimed it is impossible to live without a car where you live, then gone on to successfully demonstrate that it isn't. This is the stubborn view of the general population and it is going to be difficult to change.


if you say so....i wonder how the taxi driver would know what to pick up. i mean its a local nursery/garden centre, they don't do pick and collect. Would the taxi driver do my shopping for me, i doubt it....again, i live in the real world, not some fancy eutopia


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## shep (8 Mar 2022)

I assume all the people going on about being able to live without a car either work in one place that can easily be commuted to on either public transport or cycle/walk etc or don't work?

I guess none of you travel to more than one place in a day that's more than a few mile away or have to carry equipment/spares or materials?

Do any of you ever have building work done to your homes I wonder, if so do you discuss the possibility of your builder taking the bus to your house with his tools/materials under his arm?

How do you suggest companies send their repair engineers to premises in the middle of the night to address fire alarm callouts for example or mobile phone engineers carrying all their kit?

I could go on but obviously in some people's world these jobs clearly don't exist or is it that it doesn't fit your narrative?


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## Electric_Andy (8 Mar 2022)

It looks like, from the headlines this morning, that things are going to get worse before they get better. I predict a lot more people wil be trying to reduce their vehicle use if possible. I agree that using taxis and buses is sometimes better for some, but let's face it, most of us who have cars do not use then 24/7. They have to sit on our drive for when we need them. A good compromise (as I'm sure many do already) is to re-think how many trips you actually need to make in the car. I use my car a lot less in the summer when I walk to collect my son, and sometimes walk to the corner shop. I just look at all my other journeys I need to make, going to my partners house after work, coming back in the morning, visiting my parents 30 miles away (with my son); would cost a lot more in public transport than it currently does in fuel. Add to that cost of a taxi for garden/DIY stuff and there is no comparison (taxis are also abysmal here, I've never had one on time).

The main factor is TIME! I don't have time to make greener transport choices if I want to keep my job


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## mjr (8 Mar 2022)

shep said:


> I assume all the people going on about being able to live without a car either work in one place that can easily be commuted to on either public transport or cycle/walk etc or don't work?
> 
> I guess none of you travel to more than one place in a day that's more than a few mile away or have to carry equipment/spares or materials?


Firstly, I have done jobs that have gone to more than one faraway place and needed to carry equipment. I was one of those guys with a backpack full of kit and a small sackbarrow of boxes on the local trains/trams. It worked because it was in cities with decent transport services (Manchester and London). It would not work everywhere because our bottom-backwards country does not recognise that decent transport is a basic service needed for sustainable development.

Secondly, you seem to be arguing that people should be allowed to continue antisocial unnecessary single-person car use because builders and plumbers sometimes need vans or trucks to move supplies. I think literally no-one here is saying to ban commercial traffic that cannot reasonably be done any other way until we have cargo consolidation centres and the like. I know it does not fit YOUR narrative to keep the discussion to the private single-occupancy vehicle but let's try.


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## winjim (8 Mar 2022)

Has anyone considered smashing the patriarchy? I think it would help a lot.


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## mjr (8 Mar 2022)

Electric_Andy said:


> [...] would cost a lot more in public transport than it currently does in fuel. Add to that cost of a taxi for garden/DIY stuff and there is no comparison (taxis are also abysmal here, I've never had one on time).
> 
> The main factor is TIME! I don't have time to make greener transport choices if I want to keep my job


Both of those have a big dollop of "it depends how you look at it".

The cost of car use is more than the cost of fuel. Some of those other costs (service intervals, insurance) are or can be mileage-linked, whereas others (excise duty, test fees) are not and maybe ought to be. Similarly, there is a tendency among motorists to compare the cost with public transport using single-person single-trip open tickets for each person for each journey, ignoring daily caps, timed passes and multi-person and multi-trip tickets. Part of that is partly the fault of transport operating companies and government to define a consistent product range, to roll-out Oyster-style contactless ticketing (ITSO smartcards are a special farce) and to advertise them.

It also depends how you look at time. Cars have a shorter journey time (but only match buses once in built-up areas, thanks to the Downs-Thomson Paradox), but it's all time where the driver should not be doing anything else significant (else they are a potentially-lethal hazard). Buses often have the longest journey time, but you only need pay attention for a few seconds when boarding and intermittently to spot your stop (if not going to a required all-stop) and the rest of the time is yours to do whatever. Bikes are between the two in both journey time and required level of attention (as it's far easier to pull a bike over to do something else), but should (under current UK government policies) have the benefits of free parking closer to the destination (so less time walking slowly), not needing trips to a fuel station and being easier than buses (and maybe cars) to combine trip purposes. Car enthusiasts like to ignore than you mustn't do your emails or website discussions while driving...


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## jowwy (8 Mar 2022)

mjr said:


> Firstly, I have done jobs that have gone to more than one faraway place and needed to carry equipment. I was one of those guys with a backpack full of kit and a small sackbarrow of boxes on the local trains/trams. It worked because it was in cities with decent transport services (Manchester and London). It would not work everywhere because our bottom-backwards country does not recognise that decent transport is a basic service needed for sustainable development.
> 
> *Secondly, you seem to be arguing that people should be allowed to continue antisocial unnecessary single-person car use because builders and plumbers sometimes need vans or trucks to move supplies.* I think literally no-one here is saying to ban commercial traffic that cannot reasonably be done any other way until we have cargo consolidation centres and the like. I know it does not fit YOUR narrative to keep the discussion to the private single-occupancy vehicle but let's try.


more ant-motoring drivel.........so you're telling me self employed electricians, plumbers, carpenters should not have their own vehicles?? what about learn to drive vehicles, who for most, make journeys solo, should they go to a centre of shared vehicles???

what about the big 52 seater buses that drive around almost empty, with just a driver whistling as he drives, should they be not allowed or made smaller for rural towns/villages??

and as for the comment of " should be allowed to continue anti-social unnecessary single person car use". Do we now live in north korea/china/russia where the state controls individuals lives??? i dont think so fella


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## nickyboy (8 Mar 2022)

There are times I get bored of CC and wonder if it's worth the effort in remaining engaged with the forum

Then threads like this pop up and it all makes total sense to me. Keep up the entertainment!!


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## Rocky (8 Mar 2022)

Has anyone found a way of bottling anger, insults and aggression? There’s enough in this thread to heat the whole of Coventry for a year.


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## Electric_Andy (8 Mar 2022)

mjr said:


> it depends how you look at it


Exactly. It can work for some but not for others. When I was at Uni, a car would have been a burden (even if it was free to run). I'd worry about where to park it as I could walk everywhere I need to go. But that's because I started from ground zero with no car. I ran my life around having no car. Now it is very different, people have planned and run their lives for years (in my case, 12 years) around having a car. 

There's no point trying to persuade a chef to open a restaurant, and then to turn round and say the chef needs to outsource the cooking to a sustainable public catering firm. Which is basically what this discussion is about re: cost of fuel. For most, fuel is now a necessity unless you've never had a car.

Out of interest: do you drive? Did you ever own a car?


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## shep (8 Mar 2022)

Rocky said:


> Has anyone found a way of bottling anger, insults and aggression? There’s enough in this thread to heat the whole of Coventry for a year.


No anger or aggression from me, a mild observation of someone's view on the world maybe?

I know what world I live in and it certainly isn't one that can practically do without a car/van and that's not just me but most people I know.

I also appreciate that if the only people someone else knows lives on a bus route, works in a static location and doesn't want to own anything remotely interesting then it would be easy to form their opinion.


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## jowwy (8 Mar 2022)

Electric_Andy said:


> It looks like, from the headlines this morning, that things are going to get worse before they get better. I predict a lot more people wil be trying to reduce their vehicle use if possible. I agree that using taxis and buses is sometimes better for some, but let's face it, most of us who have cars do not use then 24/7. They have to sit on our drive for when we need them. A good compromise (as I'm sure many do already) is to re-think how many trips you actually need to make in the car. I use my car a lot less in the summer when I walk to collect my son, and sometimes walk to the corner shop. I just look at all my other journeys I need to make, going to my partners house after work, coming back in the morning, visiting my parents 30 miles away (with my son); would cost a lot more in public transport than it currently does in fuel. *Add to that cost of a taxi for garden/DIY stuff and there is no comparison (taxis are also abysmal here, I've never had one on time).*
> 
> The main factor is TIME! I don't have time to make greener transport choices if I want to keep my job


if i had to wait for taxis to arrive to go get my garden/diy supplies, i wouldnt be able to use my garden for 3 summers.......some people dont live in the real world. 

Also how do i get all the waste materials as i produce them to the waste management site?? do i need a taxi to do that too ( dont think he would be too happy ) loading his car with waste and then telling him where to take it and then have him wait while i unload it at the site.


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## Ming the Merciless (8 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> if i had to wait for taxis to arrive to go get my garden/diy supplies, i wouldnt be able to use my garden for 3 summers.......some people dont live in the real world.



Agree that waiting for a taxi for 3 years is a bit much.


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## Electric_Andy (8 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> if i had to wait for taxis to arrive to go get my garden/diy supplies, i wouldnt be able to use my garden for 3 summers.......some people dont live in the real world.
> 
> Also how do i get all the waste materials as i produce them to the waste management site?? do i need a taxi to do that too ( dont think he would be too happy ) loading his car with waste and then telling him where to take it and then have him wait while i unload it at the site.


Yes exactly, as I said it can work for some who just have a flat and no kids for example, but for many it is not an option. We can't control the cost of fuel so it seems the only thing we can do is to try and make fewer trips thus using less fuel. Which in itself is hard to do in the winter, and even harder when you don't live in a modern city. I think this discussion has come to a natural end though; those who don't have cars will oppose car use, and those with cars will oppose any other "alternatives" because to them (including me) they are utopian ideoligies


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## jowwy (8 Mar 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Agree that waiting for a taxi for 3 years is a bit much.


i said all my garden/diy supplies....not just one taxi, but you knew that and was yet again being your usual pedantic self


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## I like Skol (8 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> i said all my garden/diy supplies....not just one taxi, but you knew that and was yet again being your usual pedantic self


Woah!!!!! My irony alarm just went berzerk


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## byegad (8 Mar 2022)

I've had transport, motorbike and sidecar, car, motorbike and any combination of the three all my life, before I had a licence my dad had one or the other and I benefitted. So 70 yrs of easy mobility. But... The place and world I came from had few private cars or motorbikes and for most it was walk, bike, bus or train if you needed to travel. While range of mobility was more limited than today, believe it or not, everybody managed to be born, schooled, work and have leisure time. 

The problems coming at us, as a world and at a rush, is that we all will have to adapt to more expensive travel. Some of us will no longer afford to drive, or heat our homes adequately and it's gonna sting! 

However, alternate, plentiful energy is possible, and we will need to invest at pace in increasing supply. Sadly we have as a nation beggared about too long to get more nuclear generation on line quickly, and it, in and of itself is not the final solution to the world's energy needs. 

Before people queue up to tell us how they can't live where they live and work where they work let me say I know and you'll need to move home or job to make it work, but over my lifetime I've seen local rail scrapped, local busses cut and this under the pressure of personal mobility. The lack of such mobility will drive provision of public transport. However there will be a lag in such provision and like I said before..... IT'S GONNA STING!


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## classic33 (8 Mar 2022)

mjr said:


> Firstly, I have done jobs that have gone to more than one faraway place and needed to carry equipment. I was one of those guys with a backpack full of kit and a small sackbarrow of boxes on the local trains/trams. It worked because it was in cities with decent transport services (Manchester and London). It would not work everywhere because our bottom-backwards country does not recognise that decent transport is a basic service needed for sustainable development.
> 
> Secondly, you seem to be arguing that people should be allowed to continue antisocial unnecessary single-person car use because builders and plumbers sometimes need vans or trucks to move supplies. I think literally no-one here is saying to ban commercial traffic that cannot reasonably be done any other way until we have cargo consolidation centres and the like. I know it does not fit YOUR narrative to keep the discussion to the private single-occupancy vehicle but let's try.


Do you drive a private car, and is it your own?
If so aren't you part of the problem.


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## Rickshaw Phil (8 Mar 2022)

Enough of this now folks. It's clear that we have entrenched positions and that tempers are frayed. Time to bring the thread to a close.

If you wish to carry on the discussion take it to NACA: https://naca.cyclechat.net/


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