# Please follow @cyclehatred on twitter.



## actonblue (12 Nov 2012)

@cyclehatred retweets the disturbing views of many towards cyclists. The more of us that can engage with these misguided people the better. We may change some people's insane attitudes.


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## Mushroomgodmat (12 Nov 2012)

Iv been flowing him/her for a good few days now. Apart from the fact a lot of it makes me angry, It's well worth following, really shows how little some of the people know, about cycling, cyclists and importantly how little they know about the actual Highway Code.


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## GrumpyGregry (13 Nov 2012)

I think the ignorance of the haterz is hilarious. But no one's mind will be changed by angry responses to them, and reasoned ones are likely to bounce off their stupidity.


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## Recycle (13 Nov 2012)

I think this may have been raised before but what is the legal status of something like this in relation to hate crime?
"In crime and law, hate crimes (also known as bias-motivated crimes) occur when a perpetrator targets a victim because of his or her perceived membership in a certain social group" Wikipedia.

Perhaps cycling organisations like the CTC should test the law. There have after all been examples of prosecution for libellous statements on social media, and recently a number of people were prosecuted for revealing the name of a rape victim on twitter.


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## Recycle (13 Nov 2012)

I think I misunderstood @cyclehatred as being set up by someone with an issue against cyclists. Reading through the tweets I can see that whoever setup the account isn't. He/she is re-tweeting anti-cyclist tweets and the twits are finding themselves overwhelmingly at the receiving end of pro-cyclists responses.


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## GrumpyGregry (13 Nov 2012)

Slagging off folk because the mode of transport they choose must never become a hate crime. car drivers are ********


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## Recycle (13 Nov 2012)

Interesting, the hate tweets ARE being logged and used. By the AA no less . And no, its not what you think:
http://www.bikebiz.com/news/read/aa...-hate-tweets-at-road-safety-conference/013912
An ally in the form of the President of the AA no less.


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## shouldbeinbed (13 Nov 2012)

@asecretcyclist is another who does this. An awful lot of the haters seem to be pretty well simpletons anyway when you see the drivel they tweet or bored kids looking for a snap.
I try to pick the genuine frustrated ones to have a sensible conversation with and it often helps them see our point of view,mainly on cycle paths at the mo. The 90% cretins are best avoided if you want a happy day.


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## Boris Bajic (13 Nov 2012)

I sometimes think I live in a parallel universe. Twitter, the Internet and various other media give public exposure to the barmiest of the barmies.

My God, even I can write what I want in the Internet, and I barely know which way is up...

That being so... Why someone would want to whip themselves up into a state of frothy and lathered indignation by seeking and re-posting the thoughts of those with whom they disagree is a mystery to me...

And why anyone would want to read those re-posted and re-tweeted posts and tweets is even more of a mystery.

I am an enthusiastic and frequent cyclist in The Sticks and a fairly frequent one in The Smoke. 

I find most other road users courteous, skilled and thoughtful. Do not most cyclists? Am I in such a tiny minority?

There are some bad ones and clearly there are some who post offensive nonsense about cyclists.... But why one would want to dwell on this or publicise it I cannot imagine.

Bicycles remain huge fun, hugely practical and a great source of fulfilment to those who use them.

Do we need to bother with what others think when many of those 'others' seem to find thought itself quite hard?


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## GrumpyGregry (13 Nov 2012)

Recycle said:


> Interesting, the hate tweets ARE being logged and used. By the AA no less . And no, its not what you think:
> http://www.bikebiz.com/news/read/aa...-hate-tweets-at-road-safety-conference/013912
> *An ally in the form of the President of the AA no less*.


"While he's the president of the AA, the UK's top motoring organisation, King rides a mountain bike at the weekend, often prefers to get around on a Brompton ("I never drive in London,") and has more in common with CTC president and Channel 4 news anchor Jon Snow than motormouth Jeremy Clarkson."


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## nickb (13 Nov 2012)

There's now a response feed called @Driver_Hatred, set-up by the Driver's Protest Union (home of the Beleaguered British Driver) to 'highlight the hatred directed at drivers by some cycling groups'.
They seem convinced that the messages being retweeted by @CycleHatred are plants.

A bunch of swivel-eyed conspiracy theorists, they must be something to do with UKIP Check-out their website: http://www.youdrive.co/


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## GrumpyGregry (13 Nov 2012)

Boris Bajic said:


> I find most other road users courteous, skilled and thoughtful. Do not most cyclists? Am I in such a tiny minority?


Courteous? Rarely. Very rarely. Luckily most of the time I'm going the same way as them so they extend me the courtesy of not killing me.
Skilled? You are having a laugh, unless you count the judgement needed to squeeze 5cm past my right elbow when doing 60mph 'gud skillz'.
Thoughtful? Rolls on floor laughing....


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## Recycle (13 Nov 2012)

GregCollins said:


> "While he's the president of the AA, the UK's top motoring organisation, King rides a mountain bike at the weekend, ..."


Yes I know. I have followed Carlton Reid's articles for some time now and its apparent that the two collaborate in a positive way for cycling. My  in the post was more to draw attention than real surprise.


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## Boris Bajic (13 Nov 2012)

GregCollins said:


> Courteous? Rarely. Very rarely. Luckily most of the time I'm going the same way as them so they extend me the courtesy of not killing me.
> Skilled? You are having a laugh, unless you count the judgement needed to squeeze 5cm past my right elbow when doing 60mph 'gud skillz'.
> Thoughtful? Rolls on floor laughing....


 

That sounds awful. I'm truly sorry to hear it.

I do not know other cyclists who encounter more than one or two discourteous or unskilled road users on most rides.

When the weather allows it, I do regular 70-mile runs with one or more of our children.

I simply wouldn't ride on the roads with children if I found other road users as unfriendly, unskilled and discourteous as you do. 

I probably wouldn't ride myself, either.... No.... I would. What else comes close to a perfect ride on perfect tarmac in excellent weather?


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## GrumpyGregry (13 Nov 2012)

BB, I'll wager we both endure similar conditions, it's just that you view them through the rose coloured spectacles of courteous, skilful and thoughtful driving. To me those are active, vital, dynamic processes utterly absent from the majority of driving peak hours on the roads of SE England. Sure, Sundays on a club run things are better.

Rush hour, majority of drivers are on auto-pilot. Managing to avoid hitting me isn't courteous, bothering to put a metre between me and their door mirror, as it requires some effort, is. The majority will not expend that effort because their convenience, and desire to remain in a stupor, is more important to them than my safety. Thoughtlessness defined.


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## glasgowcyclist (13 Nov 2012)

Isn't there some small room in a distant corner of the internet where the car haters and the cycle haters can curse each other ad infinitum and leave the ordinary road users to get on with life?

One is as bad as the other and any attempt, however well-intentioned, to set them straight only gives the appearance of a bigger problem than truly exists.

Let them rant at each other but don't feed them and don't disseminate their drivel around the web. Starve them!

GC


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## Dan B (13 Nov 2012)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Isn't there some small room in a distant corner of the internet where the car haters and the cycle haters can curse each other ad infinitum and leave the ordinary road users to get on with life?
> 
> One is as bad as the other


If we were talking about Ford haters vs Vauxhall haters, or bus haters vs HGV haters, or FWD haters vs RWD haters, I'd agree. But when there's such an obvious imbalance of speed/size/power between one camp and the other, it's very difficult to say that a 80kg cyclist and the pilot of a 2 tonne car are "as bad as each other", just as it is to say that your local tax-minimising 'disguiesd employee' IT contractor and, say, Starbucks, are as bad as each other


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## Davidc (13 Nov 2012)

Boris Bajic said:


> That sounds awful. I'm truly sorry to hear it.
> 
> I do not know other cyclists who encounter more than one or two discourteous or unskilled road users on most rides.
> 
> ...


I have to agree with you. There are a small number of drivers who aren't courteous, but it's a small proportion of the total and manageable. If it were more than that riding would become difficult, and it isn't.


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## lukesdad (13 Nov 2012)

Dan B said:


> If we were talking about Ford haters vs Vauxhall haters, or bus haters vs HGV haters, or FWD haters vs RWD haters, I'd agree. But when there's such an obvious imbalance of speed/size/power between one camp and the other, it's very difficult to say that a 80kg cyclist and the pilot of a 2 tonne car are "as bad as each other", just as it is to say that your local tax-minimising 'disguiesd employee' IT contractor and, say, Starbucks, are as bad as each other


 This is what you are up against glasgowcyclist.


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## Hitchington (13 Nov 2012)

To be honest I wouldn't waste my time reading the views of people who hate cyclists let alone engage with them. Life's too short and in my experience you'll never change the views of anyone with that much hatred. Most of them are probably trolls anyway.


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## Recycle (13 Nov 2012)

Dan B said:


> If we were talking about Ford haters vs Vauxhall haters,


I drive one of the much despised Vauxhall Astra's. In defence I bought it 2nd hand, & not because I liked it but because it had low mileage & good provenance.


Dan B said:


> that your local tax-minimising 'disguiesd employee' IT contractor


Now you are just getting personal.


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## glasgowcyclist (13 Nov 2012)

Dan B said:


> If we were talking about Ford haters vs Vauxhall haters, or bus haters vs HGV haters, or FWD haters vs RWD haters, I'd agree. But when there's such an obvious imbalance of speed/size/power between one camp and the other, it's very difficult to say that a 80kg cyclist and the pilot of a 2 tonne car are "as bad as each other", just as it is to say that your local tax-minimising 'disguiesd employee' IT contractor and, say, Starbucks, are as bad as each other




You're adding a context of your own making to my words and, in the process, misrepresenting what I wrote and completely missing my point.


GC


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## Glow worm (13 Nov 2012)

Boris Bajic said:


> I do not know other cyclists who encounter more than one or two discourteous or unskilled road users on most rides.


 
Trouble is, it only takes one to kill you.


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## Dan B (14 Nov 2012)

glasgowcyclist said:


> You're adding a context of your own making to my words and, in the process, misrepresenting what I wrote and completely missing my point.



The context I had in mind is that there are people on twitter (whom one may assume are car drivers) threatening - perhaps unrealistically or trollishly, but ... - to run cyclists over. The same threats made by cyclists against car drivers would be ... probably a good deal less threatening.

If that's not the context you had in mind then I apologise for missing your point, but there was no intention to misrepresent you


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## GrumpyGregry (14 Nov 2012)

Davidc said:


> I have to agree with you. There are a small number of drivers who aren't courteous, but it's a small proportion of the total and manageable. If it were more than that riding would become difficult, and it isn't.


I'd argue we only think it is a small number because as hardened road riding types only the most egregious examples of discourtesy, lack of skill, and thoughtlessness even register, such is the thickness of the hide we must develop if we wish to continue riding on the roads.

And I'd argue it is precisely because non-cyclists see the widespread discourtesy, lack of skill, and thoughtlessness, especially if they drive when they are victims of it themselves, on the roads that they refuse to get on their bikes and join us and regard us as slightly mad.


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## glasgowcyclist (14 Nov 2012)

Dan B said:


> The context I had in mind is that there are people on twitter (whom one may assume are car drivers) threatening - perhaps unrealistically or trollishly, but ... - to run cyclists over. The same threats made by cyclists against car drivers would be ... probably a good deal less threatening.
> 
> If that's not the context you had in mind then I apologise for missing your point, but there was no intention to misrepresent you


 
Well, as I wrote in my post, I was referring to was the cursing and ranting by the two groups. I am tired of the incessant whining of one entrenched group towards another.

It's primary school playground stuff:
"You do bad things."​"Yeahbut you do _worse_ things".​ 
They are as bad (or as good) as each other at polarising debate, producing little in the way of benefit.

Meanwhile, hundreds of drivers and cyclists just get on with it.

GC

PS Perhaps misrepresent was too strong, I should have said misinterpreted.


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## CopperCyclist (14 Nov 2012)

Recycle said:


> I think this may have been raised before but what is the legal status of something like this in relation to hate crime?
> "In crime and law, hate crimes (also known as bias-motivated crimes) occur when a perpetrator targets a victim because of his or her perceived membership in a certain social group" Wikipedia.
> 
> Perhaps cycling organisations like the CTC should test the law. There have after all been examples of prosecution for libellous statements on social media, and recently a number of people were prosecuted for revealing the name of a rape victim on twitter.



No joy on the hate crime angle I'm afraid. The law is written to currently only officially recognise five types of hate crime: race, religion, disability, sexual orientation, and gender. Anything outside this, while still 'taken into account', doesn't count as aggravated.

Basically if you attack someone because they are gay/foreign/Muslim/female/disabled, the judge can and probably will add some extra time to you sentence. Beat them up because they are ginger/are cyclists/are fat then you've still committed the assault but the judge can't add anything more for an aggravating factor, and it isn't recorded as a hate crime.


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## Davidc (14 Nov 2012)

GregCollins said:


> I'd argue we only think it is a small number because as hardened road riding types only the most egregious examples of discourtesy, lack of skill, and thoughtlessness even register, such is the thickness of the hide we must develop if we wish to continue riding on the roads.
> 
> And I'd argue it is precisely because non-cyclists see the widespread discourtesy, lack of skill, and thoughtlessness, especially if they drive when they are victims of it themselves, on the roads that they refuse to get on their bikes and join us and regard us as slightly mad.


 
We could only really resolve this difference of view by carrying out careful and well designed research, which neither you, I, or Boris Bajic who I was agreeing with are likely to do! It's not going to be productive having a pantomime style argument about it.

Where we would, I suspect, agree is over the need to deal in some way with those drivers who do meet your description, whether they're in the majority as you think or minority as I think, they're a dangerous menace not just to cyclists but to all road users.

I've never been convinced as to whether the answer is education or heavy enforcement. Probably a bit of both. A move away from the Car Is King culture would be a good start. The ability of the car haters, bike haters, bus haters and the rest to voice their opinions publicly on the web (where this thread started) at least gives the rest of us an insight into the thinking of some of the worst nutters out there.


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## Recycle (14 Nov 2012)

Glow worm said:


> Trouble is, it only takes one to kill you.


Indeed.
Herbert Heinrich was a 1930's industrial safety specialist who observed that for every serious casualty (KSI) there were about 30 injuries of a less serious nature. Likewise, for every injury, there was 30 incidents. The only difference between the incident and the fatality is chance. This is called Heinrich's triangle (or pyramid) and it forms the foundation for industrial safety theory.

Heinrich's ratio of 30 has since been disputed. It's in fact a variable and depends on the type of industry and risk but the principle of his theory holds true. It's a numbers game. If you can't manage the incidences you won't stop the fatalities.


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## bicyclos (15 Nov 2012)

I think what is needed is getting together all these vindictive twitterers together in one big room for a good group hug


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## Boris Bajic (16 Nov 2012)

GregCollins said:


> BB, I'll wager we both endure similar conditions, it's just that you view them through the rose coloured spectacles of courteous, skilful and thoughtful driving. To me those are active, vital, dynamic processes utterly absent from the majority of driving peak hours on the roads of SE England. Sure, Sundays on a club run things are better.
> 
> Rush hour, majority of drivers are on auto-pilot. Managing to avoid hitting me isn't courteous, bothering to put a metre between me and their door mirror, as it requires some effort, is. The majority will not expend that effort because their convenience, and desire to remain in a stupor, is more important to them than my safety. Thoughtlessness defined.


 
Greg, I'll wager we both enjoy similar conditions too.

Cycling for forty years (I wear no spectacles) I have seen my share of discourteous, rude or dangerous drivers and cyclists.

They are few.

Most of my unplanned dismounts have been rider error on my part or a mechanical mishap.

I spent many years as one of those commuter drivers on the roads of SE England. I rather enjoyed it. Driving on Auto-Pilot simply isn't an option.

I do sympathise, as you seem to find parts of cycling on UK roads deeply unpleasant. However, I and very many other cyclists find it largely lovely. No rose-tinted specs here. I'm not even seen by friends and family as a particularly jolly person. 

I'd suggest the train or the bus, but I think you might be making a point rather than painting things as they are. But that might be my rose-tinted specs talking... 

Sympathies anyway. I wish it could be as good for everyone as it is for me. I type this after a bad night's sleep having decked the fixie yesterday on ice in a car park and cracked a rib. I blame the weather, which was on auto-pilot.


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## Boris Bajic (16 Nov 2012)

Glow worm said:


> Trouble is, it only takes one to kill you.


 
Well they're not very good at it then. It's taken all of them put together over 40 years not to kill me.

At this rate I'm nore likely to be offed by an elephant falling out of an aeroplane.

I don't mean to trivialise more than is necessary, but I do think there is a little @Why Me?@ glumness in the online writings of some cyclists that I feel simply doesn't apply and is not helpful when written.


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## GrumpyGregry (16 Nov 2012)

Boris Bajic said:


> I don't mean to trivialise more than is necessary, but I do think there is a little @Why Me?@ glumness in the online writings of some cyclists that I feel simply doesn't apply and is not helpful when written.


as opposed to naive denial combined with tiggerish optimism you mean?


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## Recycle (16 Nov 2012)

Boris Bajic said:


> Well they're not very good at it then. It's taken all of them put together over 40 years not to kill me.


How easy is it to judge other cyclist's experience by your own?

I mostly commute to Canary Wharf from the south via the Greenwich foot tunnel. By London standards this commute can be classed as a low traffic route because the foot tunnel for obvious reasons isn't a traffic pinch point as are all the other Thames crossings, and the approaches to foot tunnel don't attract cars either.

Once a week I commute to the City and the experience is so different I may as well be on a different planet. All road users are in a fight for space with the cyclist being the only one without a protective shell.

If I were to judge cycling safety by my Canary Wharf commute I would also wonder what the fuss is about.


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## Andrew_P (16 Nov 2012)

Recycle said:


> All road users are in a fight for space with the cyclist being the only one without a protective shell.


& here lies the problem, without a doubt infrastructure plays a large part in this. I have travelled the same route for 2 years. I know where my aggro is going to come and it is always where there is a "fight for space".

12 months into my commuting life Surrey CC decided to put a wide island Ped crossing in a part of commute that had not even registered with me and turned it instantly in to a conflict\danger point.

I think peoples views really depends how many of these points there are. Also I see maybe 6/7 cyclist at the most on my commute so I would say my companion car drivers are not bike aware and a fair %probably bike haters.

Whenever Cycle safety comes up and the Radio stations start to have phone in on the subject my heart sinks not only with the number of haters (I know the producer probably guides it this way) but the fact that the Radio Show is essentialy spreading the word.

Backj on Topic, completely pointless engaging with them in fact probably counter productive and just reenforces ther some what skewed views


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## Andrew_Culture (16 Nov 2012)

Blimey this thread got big quickly!

Focussing on negativity has never had a positive outcome (only talking personally here).


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## Boris Bajic (16 Nov 2012)

GregCollins said:


> as opposed to naive denial combined with tiggerish optimism you mean?


 
I am frequently accused of Tiggerish optimism - so I think that charge sticks like sheep poo on a shoe.

I'm not sure about naive denial though... Despite being a lifelong and slghtly pacifist civilian, I've been shelled, shot at, had people with knives and rifles make beastly (and credible) comments about what they're going to do to me and been over several car and van bonnets and under one or two vehicles in my five decades of life, so I've not sure there's any naive denial here. I know what hurts and I know what's scary. I've been scared enough to lose muscle control more than once. One time (with shelling imminent) I was unable through fear to move my clutch foot in a lorry, causing loud curses from the man in the cab with me. I couldn't move my foot off the pedal, so we stayed where we were. Afterwards it was treated as a big joke, but I was literally scared stiff at the time. Really, I don't think I'm being naive about the dangers and the attitudes of other road users. 

Like very many contributors to these pages, I believe that the great majority of road users all over the UK show skill, courtesy and awareness at most times. 

If I saw things as you seem to, I would not encourage my offspring to ride. All do ride, with gusto. One is starting to race.

But Tiggerish optimism, Guilty as charged. I wouldn't have it any other way.

I like your posts and don't want to get waspish and tart about this. We see things differently.


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## Glow worm (16 Nov 2012)

Boris Bajic said:


> Well they're not very good at it then. It's taken all of them put together over 40 years not to kill me.


 
I'm not quite sure I follow your logic. 110 cyclists killed on UK roads last year, 107 killed in 2010 and *already* this year 106 cyclist deaths. Are you saying we should all ignore this because you've manage to wobble your way around the place so far unscathed?

Yes cycling is statistically relatively safe (although seemingly less so year on year), so sure, be optimistic, but don't ignore the facts.


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## Boris Bajic (16 Nov 2012)

Glow worm said:


> I'm not quite sure I follow your logic. 110 cyclists killed on UK roads last year, 107 killed in 2010 and *already* this year 106 cyclist deaths. Are you saying we should all ignore this because you've manage to wobble your way around the place so far unscathed?
> 
> Yes cycling is statistically relatively safe (although seemingly less so year on year), so sure, be optimistic, but don't ignore the facts.


 
Good point and well spotted! It isn't logic, so you're right there. It was a slightly waspish response to what I thought was a fairly dramatic post.

I was rather trivialising a serious issue and I accept that. 

Give or take a score of deaths, the figures have changed little year-by-year during my adult life. I'm not saying at all that road deaths should be ignored. I do not ignore them myself. I'm not sure I'm even implying it, although I can see how it might seem that I am.

Although I'm not a great cyclist, I like to think I do better than to wobble around unscathed. Further to that, I have been 'scathed' and am curently nursing a cracked rib from a cycling accident. Not dead, just scathed.

I think my post was a response to what I see as a slightly maudlin outlook in some quarters and a mistrust or dislike of motorists that seems quite out of proportion when I look at road behaviour generally. i continue to believe that most road users are skilled, courteous and aware. Some think otherwise. They may be right.

I cycle and encourage my children to do so. At 200 deaths a year, I would do the same. Similarly 300, 500 or more. Each death is a tragedy for many people, but I do not find the stats affect my enthusiasm for cycling. Nor would they if they doubled. 

This is not callous, naive or wilfully rose-tinted. I accept a degree of risk and in this case I see the risk as relatively trivial. Some do not.


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## GrumpyGregry (16 Nov 2012)

Boris Bajic said:


> I like your posts and don't want to get waspish and tart about this. We see things differently.


 
Ditto those two sentences.

Here's my perspective....

For my sins I'm secretary of the local cycling forum. I'm an active campaigner.This brings me into contact with dozens, and on occasions hundreds, of local cyclists and would-be cyclists. I chair our workplace BUG. I sit in an office surrounded by cyclists, the three on my left, right and opposite me, with another two in my direct line of sight all ride to work from some distance. Fifteen folk in the room six cycle regularly to/from work. One of whom lives in the same town as me and rides the same routes in and out. Beyond them are about another ten or so more occasional cycle commuters. Beyond them are dozens of staff who drive to work and regard those of us who are cyclists as slightly mad and they are happy to share the reasons why they think that, and why they would never consider cycling.

From the tales I hear, none of them, cyclists or drivers, appear to buy the idea that great majority of drivers they encounter on the roads of Sussex show skill, courtesy and awareness at most times. I'd happily take anyone for a ride on the same roads on a Sunday morning but rush hour, I'd question their wisdom unless they are very experienced and have a thick hide.

Maybe it _is_ a local thing. But it isn't_ just_ my opinion.


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## Arjimlad (23 Nov 2012)

Thanks for posting up about this Twitter account. I have been struck by the relative youth of the "haters" posting crap about running cyclists over - they are mostly teenyboppers out & about in Vauxhall Corsas and Peugeot 106s etc.. perhaps with age comes some wisdom, at least over when to tweet and when not to tweet.

I have been enjoying responding to many of these numbskulls too !


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## DiddlyDodds (16 Dec 2012)

GregCollins said:


> Slagging off folk because the mode of transport they choose must never become a hate crime. car drivers are ********


 
And all cyclists are ********* , and that probably includes me dont you know.


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