# Highway Code changes to be announced later this year, with improvements for walking and cycling…



## stoatsngroats (30 Jul 2021)

Apologies that this is a BBC link, but HEYHO!


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## annedonnelly (30 Jul 2021)

I think some of us here commented on the draft proposals last year.

On a (sort of) related note I'm seeing a lot more nice overtakes from motorists these days. I wonder if it's because some of them have actually had a go at cycling over the last few months and so are more aware that someone passing a couple of inches from your elbow can be a bit scary.


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## Tenkaykev (30 Jul 2021)

annedonnelly said:


> I think some of us here commented on the draft proposals last year.
> 
> On a (sort of) related note I'm seeing a lot more nice overtakes from motorists these days. I wonder if it's because some of them have actually had a go at cycling over the last few months and so are more aware that someone passing a couple of inches from your elbow can be a bit scary.


I did wonder if the increase in people cycling would make them more aware of how scary a close pass can be.


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## Blue Hills (30 Jul 2021)

Tenkaykev said:


> I did wonder if the increase in people cycling would make them more aware of how scary a close pass can be.


now I just have to pray for the end of close passes by daft racing cyclists.


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## T4tomo (30 Jul 2021)

Has anyone worked out what the feck they mean by:


> The new code will also ensure cyclists have priority when travelling straight ahead at junctions.





Blue Hills said:


> now I just have to pray for the end of close passes by daft racing cyclists.


Indeed, normally a cycling club run giving you about 1 metre of space to your elbow, 5 seconds after they've all yelled at Doris in her Honda Jazz as they considered the 3 metres she gave them to not be enough ...


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## Blue Hills (30 Jul 2021)

T4tomo said:


> Has anyone worked out what the feck they mean by:
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, normally a cycling club run giving you about 1 metre of space to your elbow, 5 seconds after they've all yelled at Doris in her Honda Jazz as they considered the 3 metres she gave them to not be enough ...


The worst often give you a cheery greeting as they are right alongside in a pathetic attempt to pre-empt your natural objection. Gave some bloke a right mouthful in a lancashire lane recently and he objected that he'd only said good morning or something. Yeh right. How'd he feel if i crept into his bedroom one night and shouted good morning in his earole?


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## GuyBoden (30 Jul 2021)

T4tomo said:


> Has anyone worked out what the feck they mean by:


"The new code will also ensure cyclists have priority when travelling straight ahead at junctions."

It maybe or maybe not be related to this.
"Until now, there was nothing explicit in the Highway Code saying motorists or motorcyclists should not left hook, or turn across a cyclist’s path at a junction. The changes suggest just that, putting cyclists’ rights at junctions on a par with those driving."

Edit: Definitely maybe.


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## T4tomo (30 Jul 2021)

GuyBoden said:


> "The new code will also ensure cyclists have priority when travelling straight ahead at junctions."
> 
> It maybe or maybe not be related to this.
> "Until now, there was nothing explicit in the Highway Code saying motorists or motorcyclists should not left hook, or turn across a cyclist’s path at a junction. The changes suggest just that, putting cyclists’ rights at junctions on a par with those driving."
> ...


Ah ok that makes sense. 

Someone did that to me car on car yesterday, in a large shopping centre car park with a one way loop, so effectively a one way, two lane road with parking sections either side, they were marginally ahead of me in the RH lane (having 'overtaken' me so aware I was there) and decided they would turn without indicating into the LH side parking. Twunts


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## mjr (30 Jul 2021)

I hope they also add cyclists to the rule about giving way to pedestrians crossing the mouth of a side road (I think it may be rule 170 but have not checked) and beef it up a bit.

It is disappointing this is taking so long. I really hope the goofs get removed as a result of the extra time.


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## PeteXXX (30 Jul 2021)

An addition regarding Trip Wires aka Wander leads specifically rather than just Dogs should be kept on short leads on pavements and shared used paths. 

I did suggest this to them. Let's 🙈


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## mjr (30 Jul 2021)

Looks like the consultation was a year ago. https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/highway-code-revision.265042/

We have suffered motoring projects with two week consultations built and opened in less than a year, so this feels like a lack of urgency updating a book to help cycling and walking.


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## annedonnelly (30 Jul 2021)

T4tomo said:


> Ah ok that makes sense.
> 
> Someone did that to me car on car yesterday, in a large shopping centre car park with a one way loop, so effectively a one way, two lane road with parking sections either side, they were marginally ahead of me in the RH lane (having 'overtaken' me so aware I was there) and decided they would turn without indicating into the LH side parking. Twunts


Car parks are one of the worst places for driving. People are busy thinking about where to park, the shopping they're about to do/have just done, the kids are whinging in the back seat, etc.


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## Ming the Merciless (30 Jul 2021)

Hang on “people are busy thinking”. Really?


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## Brandane (30 Jul 2021)

This news hasn't been received very well in HGV driving circles. Always interesting to read varying points of view. Don't shoot the messenger, but here is a recently started thread on TruckNet. It has still to get going, but don't expect much sympathy towards cyclists!


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## Brandane (30 Jul 2021)

T4tomo said:


> Has anyone worked out what the feck they mean by:
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, normally a cycling club run giving you about 1 metre of space to your elbow, 5 seconds after they've all yelled at Doris in her Honda Jazz as they considered the 3 metres she gave them to not be enough ...


I am hoping, but not with much confidence, that it might mean where a cycle lane running parallel to a road will have the same priority as the road which it runs parallel to; rather than the current set up where you have to give way at every driveway and minor street it crosses. Such as this:






Should become like this:






Personally, I still won't be trusting any car driver to do what they are supposed to do. I find that has served me well so far.


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## mjr (30 Jul 2021)

Brandane said:


> I am hoping, but not with much confidence, that it might mean where a cycle lane running parallel to a road will have the same priority as the road which it runs parallel to; rather than the current set up where you have to give way at every driveway and minor street it crosses. Such as this:
> View attachment 601698
> 
> 
> ...


Examples such as the one in the photo would be a bit better than the diagram because a turning car has space to wait and give way without worrying much about getting rear-ended. There will be some (many?) like the one in the diagram but in time there should be more like this:



We have some like that already in King's Lynn, where NCN1 (which is mostly 3m away from the kerb, so no bend) crosses Spenser Road, Winter Nellis Way and the as-yet-unnamed road south of there. They mostly work for me, but that may be because motorists hesitate to pick a fight with a tall guy on a big Dutch bike, as other cyclists report mixed results, including one face-off with a raging driving instructor IIRC.

The bigger challenge will be breaking the bad driving habit of "mirror-signal-manoeuvre" where motorists turn after signalling regardless of any other road users. It needs to become something like mirror-signal-give-way-turn. I've seen councils chicken out of this fight before, removing bus lanes that crossed side road mouths, so I hope the various crises (climate, pollution, town centres clogged with cars) and national government support give them more backbone now.


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## T4tomo (30 Jul 2021)

mjr said:


> They mostly work for me, but that may be because motorists hesitate to pick a fight with a tall guy on a big Dutch bike


You think motorists assess bike & rider weight before pulling a dodgy manoeuvre??


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## HMS_Dave (30 Jul 2021)

Brandane said:


> This news hasn't been received very well in HGV driving circles. Always interesting to read varying points of view. Don't shoot the messenger, but here is a recently started thread on TruckNet. It has still to get going, but don't expect much sympathy towards cyclists!


Lack of sympathy is one thing but jeeeezus...



> What is it now? Two points for a pedestrian and three for a cyclist?
> 
> Just speed up and put your wipers on after you hit a lycra man - thats what I do





> Have you ever been tempted to "punishment pass" them - giving them about half an inch space as you go past? Of course the idea never crosses my mind...


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## mjr (30 Jul 2021)

T4tomo said:


> You think motorists assess bike & rider weight before pulling a dodgy manoeuvre??


Not always, but I think there's some sort of subconscious assessment made before they look right at you and decide whether or not to give way.


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## Brandane (30 Jul 2021)

HMS_Dave said:


> Lack of sympathy is one thing but jeeeezus...


I wouldn't take anything you read on there too seriously; a LOT of keyboard warriors on that site. There are quite a few with some good advice too, but they are the minority, and are unlikely to appear on that particular thread.


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## youngoldbloke (30 Jul 2021)

Brandane said:


> This news hasn't been received very well in HGV driving circles. Always interesting to read varying points of view. Don't shoot the messenger, but here is a recently started thread on TruckNet. It has still to get going, but don't expect much sympathy towards cyclists!



Quote from a senior member - 
*Re: Be careful!!! increased rights for bikes and pedestria*


by *JeffA* » Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:55 am
Have you ever been tempted to "punishment pass" them - giving them about half an inch space as you go past? Of course the idea never crosses my mind...
JeffASENIOR MEMBER *Posts:* 190*Joined:* Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:28 am

Nice?


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## Badger_Boom (30 Jul 2021)

The link to "tips from the Netherlands..." in the BBC article posted by the OP made me smile.

Presumably their top tip is "don't be a d**k". If all road users took this mantra to heart, we would have WAY fewer problems.


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## presta (30 Jul 2021)

Unless motorists are suddenly going to start deciding who has right of way according to what it says in the Highway Code instead of who pays road tax, I can't see it making much difference, tbh.


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## mjr (30 Jul 2021)

Badger_Boom said:


> The link to "tips from the Netherlands..." in the BBC article posted by the OP made me smile.
> 
> Presumably their top tip is "don't be a d**k". If all road users took this mantra to heart, we would have WAY fewer problems.


If you watch it instead of presuming, you'd see that the tips are (with my parenthetical comments):
1. Comfort. Cycleways wide enough to ride side-by-side and have a chat, suitable for 8-to-80.
2. Infrastructure. Cycleways or bicycle streets throughout (so not the English vanishing at junctions) the journey and enough bike parking at the destination (the film showed one of the vast bicycle garages).
3. Education. Get them young and teach them well, so drivers already understand how cyclists will move.
4. Insurance. Presumed liability. (which I think was only introduced 20+ years after the Stop Killing Children change, but I guess it doesn't hurt cycling.)

This Highway Code change is just a small first step on tips 3 and 4, really. There are other announcements like https://www.gov.uk/government/news/338-million-package-to-further-fuel-active-travel-boom which could help with the first two and are probably as important if not more.


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## MontyVeda (30 Jul 2021)

annedonnelly said:


> Car parks are one of the worst places for driving. People are busy thinking about where to park, the shopping they're about to do/have just done, the kids are whinging in the back seat, etc.


one of my old commutes involved cutting through the Asda car park... it was always on my highest level of alert there.


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## classic33 (30 Jul 2021)

presta said:


> Unless motorists are suddenly going to start deciding who has right of way according to what it says in the Highway Code instead of *who pays road tax,* I can't see it making much difference, tbh.


Simple answer to that is no-one does.


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## ClichéGuevara (30 Jul 2021)

annedonnelly said:


> Car parks are one of the worst places for driving. People are busy thinking about where to park, the shopping they're about to do/have just done, the kids are whinging in the back seat, etc.



People balk at the cost of car parking, but if you tried to rent the same size piece of land as office space or accommodation, you'd pay a stack more. In some places, it'd be feasible to get an appropriate sized vehicle kitted out and simply live in the car park, or at least use it as office space.


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## annedonnelly (31 Jul 2021)

ClichéGuevara said:


> People balk at the cost of car parking, but if you tried to rent the same size piece of land as office space or accommodation, you'd pay a stack more. In some places, it'd be feasible to get an appropriate sized vehicle kitted out and simply live in the car park, or at least use it as office space.


And sadly some people are forced to live in their cars because they can't afford housing :-(


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## Badger_Boom (31 Jul 2021)

mjr said:


> If you watch it instead of presuming, you'd see that the tips are (with my parenthetical comments):
> 1. Comfort. Cycleways wide enough to ride side-by-side and have a chat, suitable for 8-to-80.
> 2. Infrastructure. Cycleways or bicycle streets throughout (so not the English vanishing at junctions) the journey and enough bike parking at the destination (the film showed one of the vast bicycle garages).
> 3. Education. Get them young and teach them well, so drivers already understand how cyclists will move.
> ...


I was being flippant, and the actual link is very informative. However, can you imagine trying to ‘force’ some of that on British road users? The point I was making is that infrastructure (or lack of it) aside, our biggest single problem is ‘attitude’.


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## lane (31 Jul 2021)

Badger_Boom said:


> The link to "tips from the Netherlands..." in the BBC article posted by the OP made me smile.
> 
> Presumably their top tip is "don't be a d**k". If all road users took this mantra to heart, we would have WAY fewer problems.



Facilities for cyclists in the Netherlands ate great obviously and drivers stick to the rules but as a cyclist if you don't the drivers are incredibly aggressive


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## Baldy (31 Jul 2021)

I think one of the many problems cycle paths in the UK have, is we have no priority roads systems. Where the priority road includes the cycle path and pavement, and all other traffic gives way to anyone on it.


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## Mike_P (31 Jul 2021)

And that's the simple reason why many cyclists avoid cycle paths aside from the all too often pedestrian and/or dog conflicts that arise. On the subject of car parks there was a good example of motorists incompetence in Wetherby this week where the High Street is pretty much a free for all car park and the result was the bus they did not see ended up hitting a shop frontage, fat chance of then of them having observed an approaching cyclist.


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## Milzy (31 Jul 2021)

It’s about time they made it more clear that we can ride 2 a Brest & vehicles must not collide with cyclists.


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## Badger_Boom (31 Jul 2021)

Milzy said:


> It’s about time they made it more clear that we can ride 2 a Brest & vehicles must not collide with cyclists.


It is clear but most motorists last read the Highway Code the night before their test; and some would simply rather have the grievance. The same ones who bang on about ‘road tax’ and assume the cyclist on a five grand carbon road bike rides it because they can’t afford a car.


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## PeteXXX (31 Jul 2021)

This is the A11 heading out of Norwich. A rare sight where cyclists have the priority (but still wise to check that vehicles are actually going to stop at the lines!)


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## MontyVeda (31 Jul 2021)

PeteXXX said:


> View attachment 601830
> 
> 
> View attachment 601831
> ...


we have one similar in Lancaster... only a fool would assume they will actually get the priority the road markings give them


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## Mike_P (31 Jul 2021)

Need to be different colour tarmac if there is any chance of such being effective although given the amount of motorist who stop in the red zoned cycle section at traffic lights that is probably hoping too much. Auto raised bollards across the road when an approaching cyclist is detected on the cyclepath is probably the only safe solution.


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## mjr (31 Jul 2021)

Mike_P said:


> Need to be different colour tarmac if there is any chance of such being effective although given the amount of motorist who stop in the red zoned cycle section at traffic lights that is probably hoping too much. Auto raised bollards across the road when an approaching cyclist is detected on the cyclepath is probably the only safe solution.


The Norwich give ways to pedalways seem to be respected almost always.

But then, the "fine city" is about the only place I've ever seen many people walk out onto the carriageway and expect drivers to yield, so motorists there might be more used to the idea than most.


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## mjr (31 Jul 2021)

Badger_Boom said:


> I was being flippant, and the actual link is very informative. However, can you imagine trying to ‘force’ some of that on British road users? The point I was making is that infrastructure (or lack of it) aside, our biggest single problem is ‘attitude’.


I think the biggest problem is attitude, but in a different way: the bad attitudes of politicians who look for any excuse to compromise or remove infrastructure supporting cycling as soon as the first motoring lobbyist bleats. Hopefully their attitude will be improved by funding being withheld from cycleway destroyers like Peterborough.


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## winjim (1 Aug 2021)

mjr said:


> The bigger challenge will be breaking the bad driving habit of "mirror-signal-manoeuvre" where motorists turn after signalling regardless of any other road users. It needs to become something like mirror-signal-give-way-turn. I've seen councils chicken out of this fight before, removing bus lanes that crossed side road mouths, so I hope the various crises (climate, pollution, town centres clogged with cars) and national government support give them more backbone now.


My driving instructor, over a decade ago now, told me that mirror-signal-manoeuvre was outdated and that they were now teaching MSPSL: mirror-signal-position-speed-look, with the emphasis on the final 'look'. That doesn't seem to have entered the public consciousness though, it's a bit less catchy. Can anyone who's learned to drive within the last ten years tell us what they were taught?


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## lane (5 Aug 2021)

"Why we’re raising the alarm about the Highway Code changes" https://www.rha.uk.net/news/news-bl...sing-the-alarm-about-the-highway-code-changes


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## Seevio (6 Aug 2021)

lane said:


> "Why we’re raising the alarm about the Highway Code changes" https://www.rha.uk.net/news/news-bl...sing-the-alarm-about-the-highway-code-changes


From the article: " The other proposal which we most strongly object to is a new rule that gives cyclist a right of way to undertake turning vehicles. "

I have no idea if this is indeed a new change but if it is, I'm totally with the truckers on this one.


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## ebikeerwidnes (6 Aug 2021)

The RHA articel seems to be trying to give the impression that a lorry turning left that hit a bike - the lorry will always be at fault.
Which does not seem to be true.
I says 
"In any interaction between road users, those who can cause the greatest harm have the greatest responsibility to reduce the danger or threat they pose to others. "
i.e. reduce the danger or threat
so a cyclist undertaking a lorry that is signalling left and movng to turn will still be determined that the lorry has done all it can and the cyclists was behaving irresponsibly by undertaking at that point
It does mean that the lorry driver should still look in their mirrors just to check but if the cyclist behaves like an idiot then it is not the lorry driver's fault if they end up hitting them


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## lane (6 Aug 2021)

I think it refers to the new rule proposal that cyclists have right if way when going straight on at a junction

Also never understand why having a farking Blindspot is an excuse for killing someone. Don't drive a vehicle with a Blindspot I go you are worried about being held accountable.


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## Mike_P (6 Aug 2021)

If you are going straight on at a junction taking a primary position on the road is important.


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## ebikeerwidnes (6 Aug 2021)

Having right of way is one thing - but it still doesn't mean that stopping alongside a long vehicle which is signalling left is in anyway a sensible thing to do!
or even a not so long vehicle for that matter - I normally only do it if I can make sure I am at least slightly in front to ensure that the driver can see me!


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## mjr (7 Aug 2021)

Mike_P said:


> If you are going straight on at a junction taking a primary position on the road is important.


but impossible to do in every lane at once on multilane roads.


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## Mike_P (7 Aug 2021)

mjr said:


> but impossible to do in every lane at once on multilane roads.


True, the local one in particular I was thinking of is a T junction for road traffic but a crossroads for cyclists and their is a cycle lane on the road directly facing the cycle route; seen a number of cyclists stay in the cycle lane when going straight on when in fact at the junction it is really only suitable for left turns.


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## lane (7 Aug 2021)

Oh FFS

"'It's a joke!' Driver sparks debate over Highway Code plans to give cyclists priority over drivers - Leicestershire Live" https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news/local-news/its-joke-driver-sparks-debate-5737855


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## classic33 (7 Aug 2021)

lane said:


> Oh FFS
> 
> "'It's a joke!' Driver sparks debate over Highway Code plans to give cyclists priority over drivers - Leicestershire Live" https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news/local-news/its-joke-driver-sparks-debate-5737855


Nowt new, Road Tax(abolished by Churchill in 1937) which they don't pay either.
Insurance, many may already it.
Sit a test, there's a test centre near me where the instructors seem to forget which side of the road they're supposed to drive on. How do those they're instructing learn, and what.


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## Jenkins (8 Aug 2021)

Love this comment...



> "They should have insurance too. *A cyclist once went over the bonnet of my car *causing me to need a new bonnet claimed through my insurance. Now I am being penalised with my annual fee increased," added a third.



Unless Danny MacAskill was practicing for a new video, what's the betting this was the driver pulling out without looking


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## Daninplymouth (8 Aug 2021)

Jenkins said:


> Love this comment...
> 
> 
> 
> Unless Danny MacAskill was practicing for a new video, what's the betting this was the driver pulling out without looking



We get all these comments in my local rag too, at least now they aim them at escooters to which takes some flak off the cyclists. The one I don’t get is the amount of people saying they’ve had a bike crash in to them and ride off, I mean if the cyclist can just ride off it’s not really a crash is it.


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## Mike_P (8 Aug 2021)

Probably a "crash" like I had when a car exiting a petrol station stopped and I was cycling in front of it on a shared pavement when it rolled forward. Separate issue is the complete lack of any cycleway markings or signs beyond very worn painting on the pavement beyond the petrol station exit, would have thought a sign at least should have been put at the exit.


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## BoldonLad (8 Aug 2021)

winjim said:


> My driving instructor, over a decade ago now, told me that mirror-signal-manoeuvre was outdated and that they were now teaching MSPSL: mirror-signal-position-speed-look, with the emphasis on the final 'look'. That doesn't seem to have entered the public consciousness though, it's a bit less catchy. Can anyone who's learned to drive within the last ten years tell us what they were taught?



I took (Motorcycle) lessons, and a test, about 10 years ago. I do not recall the MSPSL acronym as such, but, the "final look" was most definitely emphasised (my instructor called it "your life saver").


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## Ian H (8 Aug 2021)

Seevio said:


> From the article: " The other proposal which we most strongly object to is a new rule that gives cyclist a right of way to undertake turning vehicles. "
> 
> I have no idea if this is indeed a new change but if it is, I'm totally with the truckers on this one.


As far as I can see, it is intended to stop the 'left-hook', where a motor vehicle barely passes a cyclist then turns across them.


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## mjr (8 Aug 2021)

Ian H said:


> As far as I can see, it is intended to stop the 'left-hook', where a motor vehicle barely passes a cyclist then turns across them.


The RHA seems unafraid to lie about the changes in an attempt to make its members a little more money at the expense of some cyclist lives.


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## classic33 (8 Aug 2021)

mjr said:


> The RHA seems unafraid to lie about the changes in an attempt to make its members a little more money at the expense of some cyclist lives.


Doesn't the RHA represent the interests of the companies, not the drivers of those companies.

Is it the same RHA that welcomed the relaxation of drivers hours last year?
https://www.rha.uk.net/news/news-bl...s-relaxation-good-news-for-consumers-says-rha


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## mjr (9 Aug 2021)

classic33 said:


> Doesn't the RHA represent the interests of the companies, not the drivers of those companies.


Indeed. Drivers giving way less means faster deliveries and lower insurance payouts after collisions means lower premiums. More money for the companies but drivers still under pressure and traumatised.



> Is it the same RHA that welcomed the relaxation of drivers hours last year?
> https://www.rha.uk.net/news/news-bl...s-relaxation-good-news-for-consumers-says-rha


That's the one. Fark other road users, eh?


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## Badger_Boom (9 Aug 2021)

mjr said:


> That's the one. Fark other road users, eh?


Is that because the articulated knights of the road are posessed of superhuman levels of concentration?


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