# Left turning lorries -Write to your MP



## User (1 Jul 2009)




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## John the Monkey (2 Jul 2009)

Freewheeler, of the Crap Cycling & Walking in Waltham Forest blog, suggests four points;



> My immediate response is:
> 
> (i) Just look at those lethal railings in the photos. They may or may not have had a role to play in this latest fatality but nevertheless railings at every road junction in Greater London (spot the railings in the last pic in my lorry post below) need to be torn up AS A MATTER OF URGENCY. They are quite literally death traps for any cyclist caught between them and a heavy goods vehicle.
> 
> ...



http://crapwalthamforest.blogspot.com/2009/06/yet-another-woman-london-cyclist-killed.html


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## bonj2 (2 Jul 2009)

> Following on from Mag's thread, let's do something.
> 
> Go to
> 
> ...



good idea (think it was mine actually) but don't draft a letter and post it here - we dont' want all mps getting the same letter otherwise they're just going to twig that it's a stock letter, and take less notice. They do talk to each other you know!


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## Joe24 (2 Jul 2009)

bonj said:


> good idea (think it was mine actually) but don't draft a letter and post it here - we dont' want all mps getting the same letter otherwise they're just going to twig that it's a stock letter, and take less notice. They do talk to each other you know!



Does someone fancy writing a letter for me then, me writting a letter to make a point can often be a bad idea


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## bonj2 (2 Jul 2009)

Joe24 said:


> Does someone fancy writing a letter for me then, me writting a letter to make a point can often be a bad idea



you can write your own letter http://www.writetothem.com/about-qa#formletters
it doesn't have to be perfect.

What i would like to know, is can you write to the MP's competitors, i.e. the ones that are going to stand against him?
oh what a surprise my mp is a tory ...


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## Davidc (2 Jul 2009)

If no one else has done it by this evening and I have time, I'll draft a letter for Joe and others, but agree the personal variety is best.

Now may be a good time to do a mass write-in. All of them are licking their constituents a**** at present hoping to curry favour, knowing that the government is near death, terminally ill, and they will have an election to fight


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## grhm (2 Jul 2009)

Don't post a letter here for others to copy and paste - see http://www.writetothem.com/about-qa#formletters (as linked by Bonj above) - they actively filter out copy-paste letters and explain why such letters are not good.

By all means post a bullet list of points that you think ought to be included in a letter, so that someone with writers block can use that as a starting point - but copy-paste's aren't good.


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## JamesAC (2 Jul 2009)

I think a bit of self-preservation is called for. 

If you get to the junction first, then put yourself in a very strong primary position, so that no-one (car, truck, bus etc) can pull alongside your rhs. 

If there are already vehicles stopped at the junction, irrespective of what type of vehicle it might be, DON'T feel tempted to cycle up the inside, even if there is a cycle filter lane and an ASL. You have no idea what frame of mind the driver at the front of the queue is in: he might be half asleep, on the phone, in a tearing hurry to get his load dropped off. Better to be safe than sorry. Stay in the traffic lane, in primary, and wait your turn. You're better off behind a truck, than in front of it.

That's not to say I don't fully support the concerns in this thread, and I will be writing to my MP. But it will take ages for anything to happen, and in the meantime I want to stay safe.


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## grhm (2 Jul 2009)

JamesAC, I agree entirely with what you've said - it all eminantely sensible IMO. The issue is how best to pass that message across to the new/inexperince cyclists that don't realise this.


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## HJ (2 Jul 2009)

Maybe we should campaign for changes to the Highway Code on this issue, the HC is after issues with the authority of Parliament. If the advice give to cyclist in the HC was less about keeping out of the way of driver and more about safe road positioning, it would be a lot better. It would also point out to drivers (well the new ones how have to read the thing) that we are entitled to ride in primary where there is a good reason for us doing so...


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## Dan B (2 Jul 2009)

Yeah, I'm unsure what we're supposed to be recommending our MPs actually do. As far as I know mine is neither a HGV driver or a cyclist, so ...

My suggestions (pretty much off the top of my head) would be
* Some kind of ad campaign (backs of buses?) telling cyclists not to go up the inside of lorries 
* a review of cycle facilities to remove the suicide lanes that encourage people to think undertaking lorries is sensible in the first place
* a firm commitment from the authorities relevant to Olympic planning that all vehicles and contractors involved in the Olympic construction work subscribe to a safe driving code of conduct, and should any of them be involved in a collision of this kind, that the operator have its contract reviewed/cancelled as a matter of priority. Ditto for other vehicles operated on behalf of the public sector

I was going to suggest HC changes as well, but I don't think anyone except for forumites of one kind or another reads the highway code anyway


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## marinyork (2 Jul 2009)

I'm quite happy to take part in this but I'm unsure of what coruskate has said too. This HGV railing squish thing is basically London Cycling politics. How do I convince any MPs up here to take it seriously when it isn't a problem up here?


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## summerdays (2 Jul 2009)

HJ said:


> Maybe we should campaign for changes to the Highway Code on this issue, the HC is after issues with the authority of Parliament. If the advice give to cyclist in the HC was less about keeping out of the way of driver and more about safe road positioning, it would be a lot better. It would also point out to drivers (well the new ones how have to read the thing) that we are entitled to ride in primary where there is a good reason for us doing so...



I like this idea - a large number of cyclists are also drivers, ok most that are already drivers don't re-read the highway code. But all new drivers are forced to read it... and those who have to retake their test. What ever happens it needs more than one line of attack to get to as many different groups as possible.


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## hackbike 666 (2 Jul 2009)

I find irresponsible driving worse.

Coming up to the pinchpoint as St Paul's Thameslink tonight I knew there was a lorry speeding up to get through the gap so I didn't argue.I tend to take it a bit easy with these pinchpoints but they are so fking dangerous.I still caught the comedian up twice and was in front of him at Bank.

Muppet.


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## Theseus (3 Jul 2009)

The HC already has sections in it to some extent.

*72*

On the left. When approaching a junction on the left, watch out for vehicles turning in front of you, out of or into the side road. Just before you turn, check for undertaking cyclists or motorcyclists. Do not ride on the inside of vehicles signalling or slowing down to turn left.

*73*

Pay particular attention to long vehicles which need a lot of room to manoeuvre at corners. Be aware that drivers may not see you. They may have to move over to the right before turning left. Wait until they have completed the manoeuvre because the rear wheels come very close to the kerb while turning. Do not be tempted to ride in the space between them and the kerb.

*170*




Take extra care at junctions. You should

watch out for cyclists, motorcyclists, powered wheelchairs/mobility scooters and pedestrians as they are not always easy to see. Be aware that they may not have seen or heard you if you are approaching from behind
watch out for pedestrians crossing a road into which you are turning. If they have started to cross they have priority, so give way
watch out for long vehicles which may be turning at a junction ahead; they may have to use the whole width of the road to make the turn (see Rule 221)
*182*

Use your mirrors and give a left-turn signal well before you turn left. Do not overtake just before you turn left and watch out for traffic coming up on your left before you make the turn, especially if driving a large vehicle. Cyclists, motorcyclists and other road users in particular may be hidden from your view.

*221*

Large vehicles. These may need extra road space to turn or to deal with a hazard that you are not able to see. If you are following a large vehicle, such as a bus or articulated lorry, be aware that the driver may not be able to see you in the mirrors. Be prepared to stop and wait if it needs room or time to turn.

There may be others, but these were found in a quck scan of the online version.


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## Origamist (3 Jul 2009)

Posted by the sister of Eilidh Cairns who was killed by a HGV in Notting Hill earlier this year.


*TODAY FRIDAY 3 JULY - PROTEST - Crown Prosecution Service - Reading and London?
*"Sorry Mate I didnt See You (SMIDSY)" is cutting it with the Crown Prosecution, when a driver of a vehicle mows down and kills a cyclist.

If you think that this isnt good enough, please consider joining this protest at *Reading CPS* tomorrow, Friday 3rd July.
It would be great if a parallel protest was carried out at the *London CPS*. (50 Ludgate Hill, London, EC4M 7EX). 
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?x...earchp=ids.srf

Sadly there have been serveral cyclists killed in London this year already. 
I dont know how to contact the family and friends of those other victims. 
I am not in London but if anyone is in the position of encouraging people to turn up at the London CPS that would be great. 
Might be a good idea to liaise with Adrian (see below).

I am desparately trying to get Eilidh's case to court so the driver doesnt just walk away and continue this precedent. 
The case should be going to the London CPS any day now and they will decide what action to take. 
In light of the precedent set, I am expecting zero action.
Please forward as much as you can. Many thanks.
Kate
---------------------------------------
Sorry this is really short notice, but I have been offline for a while
See the details of our action below:-
This Friday (3 July) is the 1st anniversary of the death of local cyclist Anthony Maynard.
Anthony was cycling between Henley and Bix when he was struck from behind by a van driver who claimed in his defence that he didn't see Anthony.
Anthony was with another local cyclist who was seriously injured.
The Crown prosecution service decided not to prosecute the driver, and this decision has left any vehicle driver who kills a cyclist to simply say I didn't see him or her and get away scot free.
This is of course an outrageous decision, but there is no option to appeal. So left with no choice Reading Cycling club (of which Anthony was a long term member) are organising a protest outside the office of the Crown prosecution service at Eaton Court, 112 Oxford Road, Reading, Berkshire RG1 7LL.

The CPS offices are close to the town centre, at the very start of the Oxford Road:
The cycling club and friends of Anthony would like to invite any cyclists to join us in this protest.
We will meet at 4 pm, and the protest will last about 10 minutes. Please come along, and spread the word.
adrian lawson


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## Origamist (7 Jul 2009)

The issue of HGVs, cyclists and fatal crashes will be one of the subjects on Wednesday's edition of Woman's Hour - BBC Radio4 at 10am.


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## cycling fisherman (19 Jul 2009)

coruskate said:


> * Some kind of ad campaign (backs of buses?) telling cyclists not to go up the inside of lorries



better still a mandatory retro fit high visability sign to all vehicles 7.5 T and over stuck on the rear of the vehicle. "cyclists keep clear of vehicle"

btw i am a class 1 driver.


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## Banjo (20 Jul 2009)

JamesAC said:


> I think a bit of self-preservation is called for.
> 
> If you get to the junction first, then put yourself in a very strong primary position, so that no-one (car, truck, bus etc) can pull alongside your rhs.
> 
> ...



Absolutely agree James, we have to live(ride)in the world as it is.Yes its a good idea to campaign for more publiocity to cyclists dangers etc but we have to be realistic, tired / incompetent/ drunk drivers are a fact of life.


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## xpc316e (23 Jul 2009)

The removal of railings would lead to complications with pedesrians wandering around willy-nilly in the traffic. That's why they are placed where they are - they are not put there to increase the number of cyclists who get killed. Telegraph poles and lampposts are not put around the outside edge of bends to ensure that a goodly number of motorcyclists meet their Maker either. The railings are necessary from other points of view and we need to ride in the real world as it is - not as we would in an ideal world designed entirely for our convenience. I am more sorry than most about the deaths on our roads, but we need to make new riders (and some more experienced ones, it seems) more aware of the dangers of larger vehicles. Just because one does not need a licence for a bike, or to pass a test to be allowed to ride one, most people think that training is therefore unnecessary. That is wrong for a lot of people who do not have the correct mindset when on a bike. My safety when on a road is primarily a matter for me - I will not entrust others with my well-being. I refuse to gamble with my life in an altercation with a truck and a set of railings, so I make sure that I am nowhere near the things.


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## Origamist (24 Jul 2009)

xpc316e said:


> The removal of railings would lead to complications with pedesrians wandering around willy-nilly in the traffic. That's why they are placed where they are - they are not put there to increase the number of cyclists who get killed. Telegraph poles and lampposts are not put around the outside edge of bends to ensure that a goodly number of motorcyclists meet their Maker either. The railings are necessary from other points of view and we need to ride in the real world as it is - not as we would in an ideal world designed entirely for our convenience. I am more sorry than most about the deaths on our roads, but we need to make new riders (and some more experienced ones, it seems) more aware of the dangers of larger vehicles. Just because one does not need a licence for a bike, or to pass a test to be allowed to ride one, most people think that training is therefore unnecessary. That is wrong for a lot of people who do not have the correct mindset when on a bike. My safety when on a road is primarily a matter for me - I will not entrust others with my well-being. I refuse to gamble with my life in an altercation with a truck and a set of railings, so I make sure that I am nowhere near the things.



Have you read the most recent report on guard railings? It does not sound like it: 

"Thus, while there is no conclusive evidence that the inclusion of pedestrian guardrailing at any type of pedestrian crossing or junction has any statistically significant effect on the safety record, there is certainly an effect on pedestrian behaviour, especially where traffic flows are relatively low; the volume of traffic may be one of the main factors affecting pedestrian behaviour at junctions and pedestrian crossings."​

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/tpm/ltnotes/ltn209pedestrian.pdf


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## xpc316e (24 Jul 2009)

Well thanks for the link; now that I have read it, I have to say that it doesn't make much difference. It will take years before guardrailings are removed (if ever), so I shall not change the way I ride. The report seems to make it clear that railings are the correct solution to adopt at some locations, so why not make sure cyclists are aware of the dangers caused by them? Knowing what I know about life in general, if railings are removed it will not be too many years before someone reinvents the wheel and brings them back.

It needs to be stated that some cyclists will still die because of their proximity to larger vehicles long after all railings have been ripped up. Ripping out railings is not the answer - changing how people ride would be part of the solution.


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## Riding in Circles (2 Jan 2012)

At the risk of being flamed, a lot of the issues are caused by cyclists hugging the gutter, there is no requirement for training for cyclists before being allowed on the roads so it is primarily up to the cycling community to educate its members as to how to cycle safely, if a cyclist is riding further out as they approach a junction then even if a truck passes then left hooks, the cyclist has space to go somewhere. If you are in the gutter or worse you ride up the inside of a stationary truck then you are riding in a way that endangers you and while I don't think anyone deserves to be killed for the mistake, it is contributory to the incidents.


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## sidevalve (15 Jun 2012)

Interesting to note that on another thread a lorry turning left across a bus lane was defended by members of this forum simply because the " victims" would have been m/cyclists and not cyclists [on that occasion anyway]. However more to the point "victim" blaming is garbage, you make yourself a victim or you take control of your life, accept reality and become a survivor. Too many have the "OH it was somebody else's fault" idea, it aint a perfect world. Keep yourself safe.


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## Grumble (29 Aug 2012)

Look to state the obvious there should always be a clear area in front of the traffic so that at the traffic lights both lorry and car drivers can register our presence, and I believe we should have our own set of traffic lights which would enable us to get started before the rest. And although it presents difficulties our cycle lanes should be protected by solid kerb stones. More and more speed humps but with a narrow space for us to get through.


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## Licramite (18 Jan 2013)

well I think lorries should only be allowed to drive around the country - clockwise - so they can only turn right. that should solve the problem.


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## Spinney (18 Jan 2013)

Grumble said:


> Look to state the obvious there should always be a clear area in front of the traffic so that at the traffic lights both lorry and car drivers can register our presence, and I believe we should have our own set of traffic lights which would enable us to get started before the rest. And although it presents difficulties our cycle lanes should be protected by solid kerb stones. More and more speed humps but with a narrow space for us to get through.


But lorries have quite a big blind spot right in front of them - if the driver didn't see you arrive in front of the lorry, he/she may not see you if the area is right next to the stop line.

Solid kerb stones - unless the bike lanes are really wide, this is likely to prevent one cyclist overtaking a slower one, which will result in the cycle lane not being used (as many are not at present, but at least at the moment you can move in and out of them as traffic requires).


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## XRHYSX (11 Feb 2013)

I cycle to work, I have a full motorcycle licence and car licence with full HGV entitlement.
I have all the mirrors that I should have on my lorry,
I have to venture into LDN from time to time for work and the amount of pushbikes and motorcycles that creep up on you is scary. Sometimes I have to be in the right hand lane to turn left and vice-versa, when I come to traffic at junctions I have to have a 45ft gap in front to clear that junction, the amount of cars that fill that gap for me is disappointing

Anyway I digress
The mind set I like to use on the road, whether I'm on foot, cycling, riding the motorcycle, driving or even in the lorry is that everyone is out to kill you! watch out for the idiots, its no good being DEAD right, imo


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## BigonaBianchi (18 Mar 2013)

Raise the HGV test to above that of degree level and get some educated decent human beings behind the wheels instead of aggressive riff raff. Lorry drivers are arrogant, ignorant and irresponsible for the most part. Stop recruiting from the football terraces.


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## Kies (18 Mar 2013)

BigonaBianchi said:


> Raise the HGV test to above that of degree level and get some educated decent human beings behind the wheels instead of aggressive riff raff. Lorry drivers are arrogant, ignorant and irresponsible for the most part. Stop recruiting from the football terraces.



I know 3 lorry drivers ..... They are NOTHING like what you describe above!


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## slowmotion (18 Mar 2013)

I may be accused of "victim blaming", but in IMVVHO, there are some places that a cyclist does not want to be if they wish to extend their longevity. Anywhere near a large vehicle at a junction is one of them, I think. Personally, I'm not interested in "asserting my rights as an equally entitled road-user". Forget that vanity....stay alive.


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## subaqua (18 Mar 2013)

BigonaBianchi said:


> Raise the HGV test to above that of degree level and get some educated decent human beings behind the wheels instead of aggressive riff raff. Lorry drivers are arrogant, ignorant and irresponsible for the most part. Stop recruiting from the football terraces.


 
Ahh stereotypes . wonderful though they are, they just don't fit the majority of todays proffesional drivers. just as all cyclists are not lycra wearing red l;ight jumping pavement riders.

when you have something constructive to say then feel free to join in .

adding a section onto the test and the CPD , for cycle awareness would be a start. but you don't have to be degree level to pass that.

Oh and 3 of the nuttiest hooligans i ever knew were degreee educated at a redbrick Uni. break your nose/legs as soon as look at you. but didn't look like hooligans.



slowmotion said:


> I may be accused of "victim blaming", but in IMVVHO, there are some places that a cyclist does not want to be if they wish to extend their longevity. Anywhere near a large vehicle at a junction is one of them, I think. Personally, I'm not interested in "asserting my rights as an equally entitled road-user". *Forget that vanity....stay alive*.


 
very true. rather be a few minutes late for work/whatever than early for my own funeral. and to be homnest sometimes the legs are glad of the extra few seconds


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## Kirstie Wielandt (12 May 2013)

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## XRHYSX (21 May 2013)

BigonaBianchi said:


> Raise the HGV test to above that of degree level and get some educated decent human beings behind the wheels instead of aggressive riff raff. Lorry drivers are arrogant, ignorant and irresponsible for the most part. Stop recruiting from the football terraces.


 The only problem with this is I am not academically minded and would struggle to pass any tests set to this level, but I consider myself a considerate driver and do not lose my temper easily,
plus I love my job and wouldn't want to do anything else


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## JackJoff (5 Jul 2013)

JamesAC said:


> I think a bit of self-preservation is called for.
> 
> If you get to the junction first, then put yourself in a very strong primary position, so that no-one (car, truck, bus etc) can pull alongside your rhs.
> 
> ...


I agree, there's a lot to be said for defensive cycling imo. http://cyclinginfo.co.uk/blog/245/commuting/7-tips-for-defensive-cycling/


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## Tcr4x4 (16 Aug 2013)

BigonaBianchi said:


> Raise the HGV test to above that of degree level and get some educated decent human beings behind the wheels instead of aggressive riff raff. Lorry drivers are arrogant, ignorant and irresponsible for the most part. Stop recruiting from the football terraces.


 
I cant stand football..

Im a class 2 HGV driver

Im not arrogant, ignorant or irresponsible.

I dont have a degree, but I'd say Im pretty well educated. I took a theory and practical test for my car licence then another theory, hazard perception and practiical for my HGV licence. I also have ADR and CPC qualifications which I have to retake every 5 years. I'm more qualified to be on the road than most cyclists.

Maybe it would be better to have a proper cycling test that highlights the dangers of large vehicles on the road.
The amount of times I swing right to take a left turn and have some numpty comes up the left is unbelievable, this is both cyclists and cars.
Some people just dont have a clue about whats going on around them.


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## compo (16 Aug 2013)

Perhaps it is a different world out here in the sticks but I find nearly all HGV drivers courteous and considerate wether I am driving or cycling. There are odd exceptions, but they are few and far between.


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## crazyjoe101 (22 Aug 2013)

I'm not sure if I'm talking nonsense here as I've not started studying for and have not sat a driving theory test. Perhaps if it was garunteed that there would be a significant section in the exam pertaining to cyclists then drivers might be more aware of them, at least partially, upon completing the test as they would have read up on the cycling portion of the test in the knowledge that it was definitely going to be included in the test. Like I said, could be talking rubbish.


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## glasgowcyclist (23 Aug 2013)

Tcr4x4 said:


> I'm more qualified to be on the road than most cyclists.


 
I disagree.

The level of risk your class of vehicle represents to other road users means that you are subject to more controls on your use of the road.

The absence of a requirement to pass a test on a cycle is indicative of the level of risk a cyclist poses to others.

GC


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## MarkF (30 Sep 2013)

I see cyclists willingly putting themselves in danger every evening rush hour, these are (IMO) mainly commuter types rather than cycling enthusiasts, they are never going to see or seek out safety information on a cycling forum or in a magazine, or perhaps, anywhere. Maybe a simple flyer should go out with every bike and helmet sold, clearly detailing the dangers of junctions/lorries.

PS I like railings, very convenient for holding on to.


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## XRHYSX (30 Sep 2013)

Was driving through LDN last nite and the amount of "commuter types" without lights and in dark cothing was shocking, all vehicles made after 2010 have to have driving lights now, this has been the norm for motorcycles since 2003, I think all push bikes used on the road should have lights on IMHO


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## PK99 (30 Sep 2013)

MarkF said:


> I
> 
> PS I like railings, very convenient for holding on to.



If you are close enough to the railings to hold on, you are too close.


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## MarkF (30 Sep 2013)

PK99 said:


> If you are close enough to the railings to hold on, you are too close.



Not always, sometimes I deem it appropriate and safe for me to make use of them.


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## classic33 (25 Nov 2013)

XRHYSX said:


> Was driving through LDN last nite and the amount of "commuter types" without lights and in dark cothing was shocking, all vehicles made after 2010 have to have driving lights now, this has been the norm for motorcycles since 2003, I think all push bikes used on the road should have lights on IMHO


There's only one real problem with that. If we can't get drivers to actually see the lights when its dark, how are we going to get them to notice them during the day?
Nenagh, County Tipperary ran a trial a few years ago now, where all vehicles had to have daylight running lights on. Very few vehicles seen with them now though.


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## XRHYSX (25 Nov 2013)

classic33 said:


> There's only one real problem with that. If we can't get drivers to actually see the lights when its dark, how are we going to get them to notice them during the day?
> Nenagh, County Tipperary ran a trial a few years ago now, where all vehicles had to have daylight running lights on. Very few vehicles seen with them now though.


Thing is Im one of these rare drivers that understands that we all need to use the road space, and we all want to get somewhere (alive),
it seems construction lorries/vehicles are the bullies of the road, even I have had problems with tipper lorries,
had a stand off with one on a narrow street once, obstucion was on his side and and I had started to come through, started getting verbal, I just told him I was getting paid by the hour and I will sit here all day if I have to, he soon moved


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## mr_cellophane (25 Nov 2013)

MarkF said:


> PS I like railings, very convenient for holding on to.


I feel the same about tipper lorries. All those pipes and levers !


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## XRHYSX (25 Nov 2013)

User said:


> I think all posts should have proper spelling and punctuation...


 bite me


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## noodle (25 Sep 2014)

maybe relevant up here in the sticks ive seen the same sticker now on two vehicles one a jewsons sort of van and the other an hgv

both had stickers telling the cyclist to overtake them rather than undertake. i would have got pictures but taking them while negotiating the m58/m6 interchange and the m6 southbound/a580 junction would perhaps have been a bad idea
again not strictly related but some companies do try maybe emailing them and asking for the scheme to be rolled out concerning bikes?
http://www.dhlukfoundation.org/programmes/trucks-child-safety/


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## noodle (25 Sep 2014)

User said:


> I think all posts should have proper spelling and punctuation...



id agree but until stupid touch screen things have them wher i can find them and im writing something worthwhile maybe quoting something from anna karina learn to read comprehensive styleeee


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## noodle (25 Sep 2014)

Spinney said:


> But lorries have quite a big blind spot right in front of them - if the driver didn't see you arrive in front of the lorry, he/she may not see you if the area is right next to the stop line.
> 
> Solid kerb stones - unless the bike lanes are really wide, this is likely to prevent one cyclist overtaking a slower one, which will result in the cycle lane not being used (as many are not at present, but at least at the moment you can move in and out of them as traffic requires).


ok many new wagons are fitted with two devices to afford some protection to vulnerable people 
the mirror fitted over the windscreen and not as often but quite a lot now have proximity radar systems which bleep in the cab informing the driver of anything in that area


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## noodle (25 Sep 2014)

sidevalve said:


> Interesting to note that on another thread a lorry turning left across a bus lane was defended by members of this forum simply because the " victims" would have been m/cyclists and not cyclists [on that occasion anyway]. However more to the point "victim" blaming is garbage, you make yourself a victim or you take control of your life, accept reality and become a survivor. Too many have the "OH it was somebody else's fault" idea, it aint a perfect world. Keep yourself safe.



very true. im about to make untold enemies here
i do the safety elf stuff in work and one of the things is called a risk assessment. stay with me ok and hear me out

we use a likelihood v severity multiplier
the likelihood works as 1-5 with 1 being very unlikely to 5 being really you didnt seriously think it wouldnt happen did you
and the severity is again 1-5 with 1 being very minor bruising cut needing a plaster and a kiss. 2 is muscle strain or minor injury requiring further treatment with no loss of time (pop to walk in or a and e just to be safe). 3 is broken bone non permanent injurys etc but which require 3 days or more off, or treatment within A&E etc. 4 is a life changing injury loss of eye limb etc and five is a fatalty
typing all that ive forgotten what i was going to say

victim blaming to a degree is part and parcel of judging risk quite often the victims have put themselves in a position where the outcome has become more likely and/or increased the severity of the risk 
they do this unthinkingly and willingly now im not wanting to say every cyclists accident is their own fault as that would be ludicrous but maybe just maybe if cyclists were less concerned with (said in a clarkson voice as it fits these types) well ive the right to be here so this is where im going to be much like the idiots who trundle along the motorway at 40mph saying (to the blue rinsed or national socialist passenger) im perfectly entitled to do this or its a maximum speed not a target..... and maybe look around weigh up the risks they take doing things like stopping in front of hgvs on the green bits just because they can, then maybe just maybe there will be less accidents.

all said as someone who drives and bikes and thinks about what he is doing 
on the thinking about what im doing her you go one junction in morcambe while sitting in traffic waiting to turn left several bikes under took me yes i was aware of them ut they were fairly shifting so i decided to do something they wouldnt like but would ensure i wouldnt do something they would like a hell of a lot less i pulled into the curb as i a got nearer the junction. its a left turn on a left hand bend so not a great sight line either over the shoulder or in the mirrors
happily no more bikes came past but i bet so many of the ones mentioned above would complain at a driver blocking them not thinking the driver in this case was making sure he didnt put anyone under his wheels


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## noodle (25 Sep 2014)

MarkF said:


> I see cyclists willingly putting themselves in danger every evening rush hour, these are (IMO) mainly commuter types rather than cycling enthusiasts, they are never going to see or seek out safety information on a cycling forum or in a magazine, or perhaps, anywhere. Maybe a simple flyer should go out with every bike and helmet sold, clearly detailing the dangers of junctions/lorries.
> 
> PS I like railings, very convenient for holding on to.


quite true the worst two cases i have seen though are the more professional types 
place called skelmersdale dont google it you will never get the time back and time is precious spend it doing something useful like delinting the tumble dryer
has lots of very big 'roundabouts' one in an area called pimbo is a big 2 mile circuit round a few factorys (walkers crisps being one which always smells of popcorn) anyway one day few years back coming round one of the bends (sorry its a one way system 40mph dual carriageway) and im confronted by sit (sounds like) loads of lycra clad roadies going the wrong way. now in fairness i had clocked something odd was going on seeing Marshall cars on the corners and slip way from the motorway exit and had thought it was a run of some kind. Now what would be the sensible option there a road with very high hgv traffic using both lanes to turn right and left into various industrial premises 
all i got was abuse, get out of the way k head. result call to lancs constabulary who in fairness came out and stopped it within 20 minutes 
just for one second imagine two laden hgvs coming round the corner towards the walkers factory one in the right hand lane the other in the left head on into those on bikes 
not aimed at you any of this 
oh one other thing ive read tonight someone on here calling for the motorist to be placed at fault automatically hmm yes great idea when an organised event cant even follow one way signs. this was not posted in that forum as well it wouldnt have been right to do so


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## howard2107 (16 May 2015)

What ever happened to the Cycling proficiency test that i did at school more than 40 years ago. It is my humble opinion that all road users should be assessed as being safe to be on it. If you are not aware of the potential actions of other road users, then you are a risk not just to yourself, but everyone else.


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## Origamist (16 May 2015)

howard2107 said:


> *What ever* *happened to the Cycling proficiency test* that i did at school more than 40 years ago. It is my humble opinion that all road users should be assessed as being safe to be on it. If you are not aware of the potential actions of other road users, then you are a risk not just to yourself, but everyone else.



It continues under the banner of Bikeability training.


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## glenn forger (16 May 2015)

howard2107 said:


> What ever happened to the Cycling proficiency test that i did at school more than 40 years ago. It is my humble opinion that all road users should be assessed as being safe to be on it. If you are not aware of the potential actions of other road users, then you are a risk not just to yourself, but everyone else.



There is no evidence that cycle training makes cyclists safer. Rash or illegal actions by cyclists is NOT what is causing injuries and fatalities. Usually it is driver behaviour, speeding, distracted, drunk or drugged.


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## Licramite (18 May 2015)

Of course cyclists don't help themselves much, - I always work on the principle, if a cyclist and a lorry have a dispute the cyclist looses - so the lorry always wins - hench, don't pull up alongside lorries at junctions and if the they pull up next to you, stay put till they have pulled away
Always let the lorry go first.
I don't cycle in towns much but the cyclists I encounter think they are totally invunerable and cars/lorries will get out of their way, or at least try and avoid them, i don't have such faith.

a little later at getting were I'm going is better than a being Late - as in the late Dent arther Dent -


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## Markymark (18 May 2015)

Great advice. Maybe this could be coupled with lorry drivers looking where they are going and chucking in prison thisr that don't bother or have illegal vehicles or talking in their phone or fiddle with tacometers or drive under the influence...,

Sounds fair to me.


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## Licramite (18 May 2015)

Don't forget the tractor drivers do all the above (fortunately at about 20mph)
The art of driving/cycling is anticipation, thats why I give way to everything, I anticipate everyone else on the road actually wants to kill me.

but I did have the satisfaction of seeing a car transporter parked through a few trees jacknifed in a feild just off the 303 coming back from stourhead, perfectly straight road, just a long down hill slope.


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## Markymark (18 May 2015)

I don;t think many here say that cyclists shouldn't be careful, I just think the onus of responsibility is the one driving the huge dangerous vehicle.

If I decided to practice chainsaw juggling on the high-street and struggled to see where I'm going, I'd expect the restrictions are on me rather than expecting everyone else to stay out of my way and wear protective clothing.


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## Licramite (18 May 2015)

0-markymark-0 said:


> I don;t think many here say that cyclists shouldn't be careful, I just think the onus of responsibility is the one driving the huge dangerous vehicle.
> 
> If I decided to practice chainsaw juggling on the high-street and struggled to see where I'm going, I'd expect the restrictions are on me rather than expecting everyone else to stay out of my way and wear protective clothing.


 
we shall put that on your tombstone.


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## Markymark (18 May 2015)

Licramite said:


> we shall put that on your tombstone.


what a pathetic thing to say. I always am careful and I teacj my kids to be careful. Sone of us can hold 2 thoughts in our brains and also think that those with the most danger should also take the most care and be punished if they don't.

Your logic would follow that women in skimpy clothes are at fault for being raped.


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## Markymark (18 May 2015)

I would also like to ask what sensible advice you have for the dead cyclists who were run over from behind by lorries. Only an idiot would see a lorry behind and not jump into the pavement surely. I'm sure their tombstones shoukd carry your advice of being idiots for not getting out of the wsy.


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## glenn forger (18 May 2015)

Licramite said:


> Of course cyclists don't help themselves much, -



Once again, that is simply not true. Illegal or rash behaviour by cyclists isn't what causes collisions.


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## glenn forger (18 May 2015)

Licramite said:


> we shall put that on your tombstone.



You disagree that the drivers of the most dangerous vehicles should take care so you fantasise about the deaths of posters? Why did you say that?


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## Licramite (18 May 2015)

0-markymark-0 said:


> I would also like to ask what sensible advice you have for the dead cyclists who were run over from behind by lorries. Only an idiot would see a lorry behind and not jump into the pavement surely. I'm sure their tombstones shoukd carry your advice of being idiots for not getting out of the wsy.


You misunderstand
I agree, he is right, but It won't stop you being killed by an idiot driver, - you have to anticipate the homicidal nutcase in the vehicle next to you, not think, what I,m doing is perfectly correct so why shouldn't I do it. - because the guy how' going to probably break the law - will kill you.
That's what I meant.

Ps I often get out of wys - but then I'm complete wys


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## glenn forger (18 May 2015)

Whatever, just stop banging on about gravestones, it's horrible and offensive and makes you sound like a complete idiot.


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## glenn forger (18 May 2015)

Licramite said:


> you have to anticipate the homicidal nutcase in the vehicle next to you, not think, what I,m doing is perfectly correct so why shouldn't I do it.



markeymark didn't say that, or anything like it. You've completely misunderstood the point.


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## summerdays (19 May 2015)

Licramite said:


> Of course cyclists don't help themselves much, - I always work on the principle, if a cyclist and a lorry have a dispute the cyclist looses - so the lorry always wins - hench, don't pull up alongside lorries at junctions and i*f the they pull up next to you, stay put till they have pulled away*
> Always let the lorry go first.


I disagree with that, what if they are turning left, you end up staying in a very dangerous spot, even if they are turning right their need for a much larger turning circle means you could be in danger.


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## Licramite (19 May 2015)

glenn forger said:


> Whatever, just stop banging on about gravestones, it's horrible and offensive and makes you sound like a complete idiot.


 
I didn't , I said Tombstone?
I'm really chuffed you only think I sound like an idiot, you clearly haven't met me.


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## Licramite (19 May 2015)

summerdays said:


> I disagree with that, what if they are turning left, you end up staying in a very dangerous spot, even if they are turning right their need for a much larger turning circle means you could be in danger.


 
True, I can see your point, I suppose if a lorry turns up next to you you need to reposition before it moves off to allow for it, because he ain't going to allow for you and thats for sure.


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## glenn forger (19 May 2015)

Licramite said:


> I didn't , I said Tombstone?
> I'm really chuffed you only think I sound like an idiot, you clearly haven't met me.



Remaining on the left of an HGV at a junction is stupid, dangerous nonsense.


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## Scoosh (19 May 2015)

*MOD NOTE:*
Some posts have been Deleted.

Stop the name-calling.


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## Licramite (3 Jun 2015)

programme last night - first 60minutes i think it was called - about ambulances
first incident, girl crushed to death under a left turning lorry - which just goes to re-inforce how safe cycling really is.
its being crushed under a lorry thats really dangerous


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## Southside Mike (6 Oct 2015)

Licramite said:


> programme last night - first 60minutes i think it was called - about ambulances
> first incident, girl crushed to death under a left turning lorry - which just goes to re-inforce how safe cycling really is.
> its being crushed under a lorry thats really dangerous



Problem is that without knowing how she ended up on the inside of a turning lorry, it's impossible to say whether or not she had made cycling very dangerous indeed.

Take primary at junctions guys....


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## glenn forger (13 Oct 2015)

Southside Mike said:


> Problem is that without knowing how she ended up on the inside of a turning lorry, it's impossible to say whether or not she had made cycling very dangerous indeed.
> 
> Take primary at junctions guys....



Victoria Lebrec did nothing wrong and was hit by a skip lorry driver who swerved into her:

http://www.visionzerolondon.org/2014/12/when-angel-smiles-at-you-and-when-she.html


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## glenn forger (13 Oct 2015)

Driver Paul-Ioan Mihacea, 29, who was working for Hackney-based haulage firm McGrath, is due to appear at Blackfriars crown court on November 13 to face a charge of causing serious injury by dangerous driving. 

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/lond...lorry-hails-medic-who-saved-her-a3087656.html


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## Lonestar (28 Jan 2016)

Southside Mike said:


> Problem is that without knowing how she ended up on the inside of a turning lorry, it's impossible to say whether or not she had made cycling very dangerous indeed.
> 
> Take primary at junctions guys....



If in doubt keep out of the way.I've met some real bonehead lorry drivers recently driving too fast and too aggressively.Southwark Bridge's 20 sign painted in the road doesn't seem to mean much.Yes it happens.Lorry drivers like cyclists vary in their competency also.

TBH honest I wouldn't feel safe taking primary with some meathead behind me. (and never secondary)


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## icowden (18 Feb 2019)

The key bit for me is:-

_The police did forensic tests on the vehicle and they could see that I could be seen for 14 seconds leading up to the crash.”

Last week the court heard Mihacea, a Romanian who lives in West Ham, was on a hands-free phone a minute before the crash. It was unknown whether he was still on the call at the moment of collision. The accident happened as his lorry turned left at the junction of Clerkenwell Road and St John Street. The vehicle’s sensors failed to detect Ms Lebrec’s presence because Mihacea had delayed using his indicators.
_
So it seems fairly clear that although the driver was careless with his left turn, the cyclist had placed herself to the left of the lorry. Personally I would never place myself to the left of an HGV. I'm reluctant to do so when there is a clear cycle lane. I'd rather hang back. In a bike box I make sure I can see the driver's eyes and that he or she has seen me.

Yes, some drivers are too fast , too aggressive, but there are too many cyclists who take risks that they don't need to take, whether it's cycling between two double decker busses or going up the inside of HGVs.


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## Drago (18 Feb 2019)

I wouldn't go alongside an HGV in a car unless it was at traffic lights or I could complete the overtake immediately. That's the death zone for any smaller vehicle.


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## theclaud (19 Feb 2019)

icowden said:


> The key bit for me is:-
> 
> _The police did forensic tests on the vehicle and they could see that I could be seen for 14 seconds leading up to the crash.”
> 
> ...



Is there some new development in this case, and if so could you post a link?

And quit the victim-blaming, please - he had 14 seconds to see her before his inattention cost her her leg, and almost her life.


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## icowden (19 Feb 2019)

No new development. That was from press reporting of the case. Also no victim blaming. 
It is absolutely true that he had 14 seconds to be aware of her. However it is also true that she was on the inside of the truck. 
Why she was there, we don't know. It is however also true that the left side of an HGV is a bad place to be.


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## Markymark (19 Feb 2019)

icowden said:


> No new development. That was from press reporting of the case. Also no victim blaming.
> It is absolutely true that he had 14 seconds to be aware of her. However it is also true that she was on the inside of the truck.
> Why she was there, we don't know. It is however also true that the left side of an HGV is a bad place to be.


Like those idiot kids in schools who get shot when there's an active shooter who don't run away quickly enough. It is true they got shot by a murderer. It is also true that in the firing line of a shooter is a bad place to be. 50/50 I'd say.


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## Drago (19 Feb 2019)




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## icowden (25 Feb 2019)

MarkyMark, your analogy fails unless the kids elected to go to a school where there was a known active shooter. You are also mixing up an active threat with a passive accident. 

In this case it is clear that the Truck driver indicated late in a moment of carelessness. The driver showed remorse and reconciled with the victim. It's also fairly clear that the court case was mostly the result of the need to obtain compensation from the Truck driver's insurance company. if he is found guilty of careless driving then there is an automatic fault finding and she gets compensation.

Many layers to this.


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## johnnyb47 (2 Feb 2021)

Just last week i noticed an outside contractor doing some work on our new trucks. He had spaghetti load of wires strewn all over the place and was slowly organising them up. Being a nosey old bugger i asked what he was doing 
Apparently he was fitting them up with cameras, sensors and warning speakers to the left hand side to the trucks. 
There were to warn cyclists/pedestrians it's turning left, and to alert the driver of anything in there blind spot. 
I'm a bit behind on any new laws and rules, but the guy fitting them said any hgv entering London will have to apply for a permit to prove its fitted with these safety items. If they enter without them the company will get fined (i think he said) £500 and the driver £80.


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