# The Police wont police our 20mph zone - my letter of complaint



## mickle (11 Dec 2015)

Hi Sheree, thank you for your comprehensive response to my email and sorry for the delay in getting back to you.

The figures you provided are very interesting - The only conclusion that we can draw from them is that speeding, mobile phone use and other offences are endemic. The NYP obviously have an uphill struggle dealing with the sheer volume of offences. Particularly with your resources under the constant threat of where the cuts will fall next.

I was particularly struck by your response to the subject of York's 20mph zones. Frankly I'm shocked by your response. I'm no expert in these matters. I do try to follow the news and keep myself informed, but it came as a big surprise to me that the NYP can refuse to enforce the newly installed 20mph zones. The councillors which implemented these lower speed zones made it part of their manifesto. As part of the democratic process, they were voted in on the strength of the content in their manifesto, so it's logical to conclude that the people who voted them in did so because they desired safer streets. This is all self evident isn't it? Am I missing something?

So I really struggle with your statement, that: "Many of these 20mph limits were installed against the advice of NYP, as the areas did not reflect the new speed limit."
_"The areas did not reflect the new speed limit?"_ What does this actually mean? I am to conclude that the NYP have a set of predetermined criterion by which they judge a road to be suitable for conversion to a 20mph? if this is the case it would seem to be at odds with - well - democracy. The population of York voted to increase the number of 20mph zones and the NYP refuse to recognise them. 
'Road danger' is one of the features of modern life. There is - globally - an increasing awareness of the importance of reduced urban traffic speeds in the reduction of danger and the improved quality of people's lives. Reduced traffic speeds encourage more walking and cycling and this has a measurable positive impact on people's health. So I have to wonder - whose side are the NYP on? By refusing to accept the democratically imposed 20mph zones you're literally going against the will and best interests of the people.
You say that 20mph zones should be 'self enforcing'. Well I have an big issue with this. 'Self enforcing' means speed bumps, chicanes and other traffic calming measures. Well, they might reduce the average speed of traffic using a road but they create their own problems. You only need to look at Hezlington lane where cars swerve widely to aim themselves astride the 'sleeping policeman'. Some cars do slow - but others, those with less concern for the comfort of their passengers and the longevity of their suspension - ignore the speed limit and the bumps and cruise on through at +/-30mph. So then we end up with a situation - past a school! - where some cars can be predicted to travel at the posted speed limit and others ignore it. What hope for children and senior citizens crossing the road with these enormous speed disparities? You may as well have left it at thirty - at least then everyone would know what speed to expect. And chicanes? if ever there was a thing that would encourage people to speed up and race through gaps, to 'play chicken' with other drivers this is it.
My point is, that the 'self enforcing' theory is wholly inadequate. But how would you know? The NYP isn't looking at 20mph zones. I wrote my original letter to you on the subject of the new 20mph zone which includes Hospital Fields Road. In six years of living in this area I've never seen an officer checking the speed of vehicles within the ring road. 30mph/20mph whether 'NYP approved' or not. And I've seen no shortage of speeders. You could stand outside Fishergate School and count them through. Virtually every car exceeds the 20mph limit.
I seriously think that NYP's policy in this area is totally wrong. It serves no-one. With some drivers obeying the 20mph and others ignoring it, we've made the roads potentially even more dangerous than before. Engineering doesn't work, and so the only effective method bust be education backed up with enforcement. It worked for seat belts. It worked for drink driving. 
We live in a country where people can disobey the rules of the road every day and with impunity. As I mentioned in my previous email, I've lost count of the numbers of red light jumpers, mobile phone users, speeders etc etc etc I see every single day. If these drivers had an inkling that there was even the tiniest chance of a Polis seeing them they'd be less inclined to break the law. So all you'd need to do is turn up once or twice a year on any given arterial into the town. A police presence. Because whatever you're doing now simply isn't working. I feel like I take my life in my hands every time I get on my bike. My neighbours would love to cycle but refuse to because Fulford road is so hellish. The answer to the danger posed to vulnerable road users cannot be for them to stay away. We need to address the danger. I really wish you had a strategy that would make a difference.
Thanks for the opportunity to share my thoughts!
All the best,
Mick


Just to add to my previous email. Based on today's activity on Hospital Feilds Road, just around the corner from York Nick, not only are NYP not policing the 20mph speed limit, they're not policing 30mph or 40mph, or even 50mph, judging by the outrageous speeds which some motorists are driving down our road today. It's absolutely obnoxious to people using or crossing that road on foot or by bike. There's going to be a death on this road one of these days and I'll not take any pleasure in saying I told you so.

Regards,

Mick


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## PhilDawson8270 (11 Dec 2015)

http://www.cambs-police.co.uk/roadsafety/docs/201305-uoba-joining-forces-safer-roads.pdf

That is an interesting read, it's the ACPO guidelines, in which I imagine the Police force were referencing when not recommending the zones for installation.

Section 11 is where it mentions what is suitable for a 20mph zone.

Section 11.2 specifically,they do not recommend simply swapping 30s for 20s. They also need other features to signify that it is a 20 zone, such as speed bumps I guess, etc.

If there's evidence of blatant ignorance of correctly posted 20mph zones, they will enforce. They will NOT "routinely" enforce those that are simply a 30 sign changed to a 20 sign.


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## mickle (11 Dec 2015)

_' ... blatant ignorance of correctly posted ... '._ What's the problem with changing a 30mph sign for a 20mph sign and expecting people to drive slower? I'm really not getting it.


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## PhilDawson8270 (11 Dec 2015)

mickle said:


> _' ... blatant ignorance of correctly posted ... '._ What's the problem with changing a 30mph sign for a 20mph sign and expecting people to drive slower? I'm really not getting it.



Speed limits other than 30mph, have regular repeaters. 30mph zones are often indicated by a lack of repeaters, and regularly spaced lamp posts. If you just took down a 30mph sign, and replaced it with a 20mph one. Other than a single sign joining the road, it would in all other senses, look, and feel like a 30mph zone.

The ACPO guideline is for other engineering, or traffic calming methods to be used as well, to reduce speed, and to remove ambiguity from the limit.

While they may have been installed by councillors as part of their manifesto, they were not installed in a manner that followed the ACPO guidelines.

I provided a link to the guidelines, it's an interesting read, and does provide justification for their recommendations too. I suspect if you wished to complain, or question them, that ACPO is the people to speak to, not the council.


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## Bollo (11 Dec 2015)

Seems to be a trend....

https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/winchesters-new-20mph-limit-not-enforceable.166469/


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## classic33 (11 Dec 2015)

Not enforced by WYP either.

Wonder if the fact that some councils have used illegal signs, means they can't be enforced?


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## PhilDawson8270 (11 Dec 2015)

classic33 said:


> Wonder if the fact that some councils have used illegal signs, means they can't be enforced?



Council saves money, by purchasing useless items


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## mickle (11 Dec 2015)

PhilDawson8270 said:


> Speed limits other than 30mph, have regular repeaters. 30mph zones are often indicated by a lack of repeaters, and regularly spaced lamp posts. If you just took down a 30mph sign, and replaced it with a 20mph one. Other than a single sign joining the road, it would in all other senses, look, and feel like a 30mph zone.
> 
> The ACPO guideline is for other engineering, or traffic calming methods to be used as well, to reduce speed, and to remove ambiguity from the limit.
> 
> ...



I read it through. I'm still not getting it. The justifications for their recommendations are the kind of skewed thinking I'd expect to see on the SafeSpeed website.


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## PhilDawson8270 (11 Dec 2015)

mickle said:


> I read it through. I'm still not getting it. The justifications for their recommendations are the kind of skewed thinking I'd expect to see on the SafeSpeed website.



I'm not saying it's right or wrong, or offering my personal opinion on it. Merely providing a resource that was relevant to your initial post, and would likely answer some questions you posed to who I assume is a councillor.

It clarifies the Police viewpoint (well, their guideline), and their correct or incorrect justifications. It may help in structuring further complaints you may have, and I was intending on entering a debate. Just merely sharing some interesting information.


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## theclaud (11 Dec 2015)

Mick - was this a follow-up to a FOI request about stats?


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## sidevalve (11 Dec 2015)

Question - If this idea of 20 speed zones was rigorously enforced and by that I mean all road users including cyclists [20 is not that hard to exceed] would it be quite so agreeable ? [And please no 'Oh cyclists don't cause accidents, do any damage, break the law, can't be enforced because we don't have speedometers rubbish - a limit is a limit - no if's no buts - or is it just ok because cyclists would as usual 'get away with it' because there is realistically no way of tracking them ?]


mickle said:


> We live in a country where people can disobey the rules of the road every day and with impunity.


Sure do - and many of them ride bicycles - sorry but it's true - get over it.


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## PhilDawson8270 (11 Dec 2015)

sidevalve said:


> please no 'Oh cyclists don't cause accidents, do any damage, break the law, can't be enforced because we don't have speedometers rubbish - a limit is a limit - no if's no buts - or is it just ok because cyclists would as usual 'get away with it' because there is realistically no way of tracking them ?


Cyclists "get away with it" as I believe speed legislation applies specifically to "motor-vehicles", it is nothing to do with no speedo, or no way of tracking them. Simply, speed limits do NOT apply to cycles.



http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/part/VI said:


> (1)It shall not be lawful for a person to drive a *motor vehicle* on a restricted road at a speed exceeding 30 miles per hour.
> 
> An order made under this subsection as respects any road may prohibit—
> 
> ...



In fact here is the offences that can be committed on a bicycle.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1991/40/section/7


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## theclaud (11 Dec 2015)

sidevalve said:


> Question - If this idea of 20 speed zones was rigorously enforced and by that I mean all road users including cyclists [20 is not that hard to exceed] would it be quite so agreeable ? [And please no 'Oh cyclists don't cause accidents, do any damage, break the law, can't be enforced because we don't have speedometers rubbish - a limit is a limit - no if's no buts - or is it just ok because cyclists would as usual 'get away with it' because there is realistically no way of tracking them ?]
> 
> Sure do - and many of them ride bicycles - sorry but it's true - get over it.



Yawn.


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## growingvegetables (11 Dec 2015)

sidevalve said:


> Question - If this idea of 20 speed zones was rigorously enforced and by that I mean all road users including cyclists [20 is not that hard to exceed] would it be quite so agreeable ?


If you mean, am I happy to observe the 20mph limit on my bike, the answer is yes.

I have a reasonably accurate speedometer on one of my bikes, and based on that and many, many years cycling, a pretty good feel for what 20mph looks/feels like on my other bikes.

Do I give a ****** for niceties of speed limits not being applicable to bikes? Nope

Do I blast through, ignoring the 20 limit? Nope

Do I get p****d off at Audi and Range Rover drivers close passing at 40mph+ in a 20mph zone outside 2 schools Yup.


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## steveindenmark (11 Dec 2015)

I wonder if your Council realises that they cannot instruct NYP to police the 20 mph zones.

Adding these zones to their manifesto to get people to vote for them is a con if they have no power over the police to implement them.


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## mjr (11 Dec 2015)

When's the police commissioner next up for election?


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## mickle (11 Dec 2015)

PhilDawson8270 said:


> I'm not saying it's right or wrong, or offering my personal opinion on it. Merely providing a resource that was relevant to your initial post, and would likely answer some questions you posed to who I assume is a councillor.
> 
> It clarifies the Police viewpoint (well, their guideline), and their correct or incorrect justifications. It may help in structuring further complaints you may have, and I was intending on entering a debate. Just merely sharing some interesting information.


Sorry if I gave you wrong impression - I'm very grateful for your input, it was a very interesting read and will definitely help to frame my nex email. I beleive very strongly that we should question many of their assumptions.


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## Vertego (28 Dec 2015)

This really isn't a new story. See this article from The Times, March 2013...

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cyclesafety/article3705446.ece


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## theclaud (28 Dec 2015)

Vertego said:


> This really isn't a new story.



No one claimed it was, did they? It remains a matter for concern, as many of us are campaigning for the introduction of 20mph zones, which will not be effective unless we are also campaigning for them to be enforced. Which is what mickle is doing.


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## Vikeonabike (29 Dec 2015)

The issue is not really whether or not Constabularies enforce 20 mph speed limits. It's simply they do not have the resources to do it! Yes they can all put together a little one day operation across the county or maybe a week of action involving a many "Partner Agencies".
The truth of the matter is that unless you put cameras up then it is just not feasible to do. Lets say you have 20mph zone that has no turnings off it. The you need one officer with a speed camera! You probably need another 2 or 3 officers for pulling in the motorists and issuing tickets then a chase car down the road! So we are looking at 5 officers!
So now this 20mph zone has 2 roads leading off it! Add at least another 2 officers and one chase car.
What's the result?
"999 Which service Please?
"Police!"
"Sorry sir no Police available, the whole shift are doing speed checks on a 20mph zone!"
It's not just speed limits.. New hoverboard things.. Yep WOA only. Of course it is illegal to use in public spaces (roads/footpaths etc) but they don't have the resources. Same with unlit cyclists.. haven't got time.
If' it's not a domestic, CSE, People trafficking, mental health, violent crime or a burglary and it's not happening right now it takes a back seat... a long way down the bus!


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## GrumpyGregry (29 Dec 2015)

User said:


> Lack of resource is an issue but that cannot reasonably justify a decision to not to enforce at all.


Sussex Police in the market towns at least, I'll not speak about Brighton and HoveActually, justify their decision not to enforce at all on the basis of philosophical objection to the concept of 20mph zones where people live.


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## GrumpyGregry (29 Dec 2015)

User said:


> Can we tolerate police services deciding which bits of law they are prepared to enforce?


The perception is that we, in the "historic market towns" of Sussex, are generally law-abiding folk, though my personal experience as a road-user suggests this is no longer the case on the roads locally, we are generally policed via consent" and we generally allow, nay encourage, plod to use their discretion. 

Horsham had one of the first 20 mph zones in the country. SFAIK it has never been enforced. It is now routinely ignored by the majority of drivers.


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## PhilDawson8270 (29 Dec 2015)

User said:


> Can we tolerate police services deciding which bits of law they are prepared to enforce?



Unfortunately, Police do need to prioritise. I can tolerate them prioritising more serious crimes than SOME 20mph zones, but your priorities may be different to mine.

I have no issues with 20mph zones were they make sense, but there are those that seem quite ridiculous.

Some may live in an area where the zones are logical and well implement, some of us do not. This does shape opinions of schemes which wrongly get applied to a nation as a whole.

Here is an example of a street near where I live.

https://goo.gl/maps/NoVyeLpLbpS2
This is the start of a 20mph zone, through a terraced housing estate, with traffic calming measures, this makes some kind of sense.

https://goo.gl/maps/eMcLVTUmkav
If you stay on the road for about half a mile, you come to this area. This is the end of the 20mph zone, and goes back to 30 at the end of the housing estate

https://goo.gl/maps/6EBhxjqxqUS2
That is just after the change back to 30mph. They do a 20mph zone somewhere with wide pavements, then change to a 30mph zone, just in time for their to be 2 playgrounds/playing fields opposite each other!

https://goo.gl/maps/nx1jY1jMYM52
It then goes back to 20mph, in an area where you will be doing well to be getting to that speed due to parked cars, turn offs, many small side roads etc.


It is a huge waste of money, the first one makes a little sense, but traffic lights, and parked cars keep traffic speeds down here anyway. Then they change to a 30mph zone past 2 playgrounds, and then change to a 20 again somewhere you can't do that speed never mind enforce it.

I'd much rather see those playgrounds under an enforced 20mph zone, maybe even an average camera past the playing field as there are no turn offs. This happens quite often throughout my borough, and may be has coloured my opinion of them. Hopefully some of you guys have an intelligent council.


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## GrumpyGregry (29 Dec 2015)

I'd like all existing 30 mph zones to become 30kph zones.

but then I'd like all non-motorway speed limits to change from mph to kph.


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## StuartG (15 Jan 2016)

Southwark has gone 20 mph. Lewisham is dragging its feet. The border runs close to here so its interesting to watch what is happening. There is no enforcement but it is working a bit. We are lucky(!) in London that most roads are not suitable for overtaking (two lines of parked cars making oncoming vehicles an issue to pass).

So it takes only one vehicle in ten to choose to drive at less than 30 for all to have to follow meekly (or occasionally not so meekly) behind. Which means a fair amount of time the traffic flow is 20/25 mph instead of 30+ in identical roads across the frontier.

But it takes nerve to be the one in ten setting the pace. But there is enough of us bloody minded types to make a difference.


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## DaveReading (15 Jan 2016)

Large chunks of Reading set to be subject to a blanket 20mph limit:

http://www.readingchronicle.co.uk/n...ing_20mph_zones_set_to_come_in_by_the_spring/


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## summerdays (16 Jan 2016)

They have prosecuted 2700 people in Bristol according to this article. I rember when it was published there were people ringing the radio station to complain that they didn't know that they could be fined.


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## mjr (16 Jan 2016)

Do local authorities get to keep the proceeds of this idiot tax? Bath made a tidy sum from vehicles passing no entry signs in the city centre IIRC... but Norfolk have fined no one in King's Lynn the last time it was published :-(


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## Smurfy (28 Jan 2016)

I'm not really surprised, I haven't seen a mobile speed camera in a residential area for years. And the most recent one I saw looked like a pair of PCSOs, one with a speed gun, the other with a clipboard, so I suspect it resulted in advisory letters rather than speeding tickets. There just doesn't seem to be the money or will to do it any more in residential streets. The only mobile cameras I've seen recently were on fast rural A and B roads where the motorcyclists go to get their adrenalin fix.


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## SavageHoutkop (28 Jan 2016)

Manchester has large 20mph areas now (zone / limit mean different things but for the life of me I can't remember which it is). 
I have been pushing for enforcement here too - no interest. Council wants me to go door to door to get people to 'sign up' to it, to get a banner (most schools have one up), etc etc. What would work is one mobile camera. Just one would do. Different spot every day.


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## jarlrmai (11 Feb 2016)

In one area I seem to recall they give some residents a speed camera and had to take it back off them because they caught too many drivers?


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## SavageHoutkop (12 Feb 2016)

Following the 'engagement' discussion with everyone I've had so far I 'engaged' (politely I might add!) with a driver who had been doing more than 20mph. I got all sorts of 'who do you think you are'; 'can you ticket me' etc, followed by a 'where do you live'. Nice.


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## fossyant (12 Feb 2016)

We have a 20mph zone near a school and it has dirty great big road humps. I always shake my heads when I see the school run mums bombing down the road and almost getting air on the bumps - I'm sure the garage bill will remind you to slow down.


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## winjim (29 Mar 2016)




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## Markymark (29 Mar 2016)

winjim said:


> View attachment 123132


Won't somebody think of the paedophiles??


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## mjr (29 Mar 2016)

winjim said:


> View attachment 123132


I'd like to challenge the writer to walk at 20mph!


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## winjim (29 Mar 2016)

mjray said:


> I'd like to challenge the writer to walk at 20mph!


I'm pretty sure that if one wants to travel at walking speed there's an easier way of doing it than driving slowly!


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## jarlrmai (29 Mar 2016)

Its not so much that someone wrote that letter, it's that they printed it.


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## Mugshot (29 Mar 2016)

Is this from Viz?


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## glenn forger (29 Mar 2016)

We've the worst child road fatality rate in Western Europe and a bloke thinks the answer is to drive faster past schools, because paedophiles.


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## theclaud (29 Mar 2016)




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## Origamist (30 Mar 2016)

Paedophiles have more genes in common with crabs than they do with you and me.


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## glenn forger (30 Mar 2016)

Cyclists are endangering children. Children from World War Two.


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## glenn forger (30 Mar 2016)

https://twitter.com/viewfromN5/status/715147332065603586


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## classic33 (30 Mar 2016)

glenn forger said:


> Cyclists are endangering children. Children from World War Two.


A bit late with that.


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## mjr (31 Mar 2016)

classic33 said:


> A bit late with that.


Don't want to risk any CCers saving children...


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## classic33 (31 Mar 2016)

mjray said:


> Don't want to risk any CCers saving children...


The vote closed for all five options, which all had road closures in them, on Sunday gone.
One was voted for.


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## mjr (16 Jan 2021)

New lunatic tactic against 30kph zones in Brussels: taxis and hauliers have increased their prices, arguing that the lower top speed means fewer trips per day, ignoring that the reduction in congestion means average traffic speeds are slightly higher.


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