# Brompton Question



## clid61 (4 Oct 2020)

I have recently bought a 6 speed . Is there any reason the derailure is virtually horizontal ? As other with less gears are virtually vertical


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## rogerzilla (4 Oct 2020)

Yes, it's mainly to tidy the chain when the bike is folded, and the derailleur function is a srcondary feature. If you add more chain, the arm will run out of travel and the chain will flop about after folding the bike.


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## steveindenmark (4 Oct 2020)

Its a clever design. If only they would sort out the plastic gear levers and awful pedals.


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## clid61 (4 Oct 2020)

rogerzilla said:


> Yes, it's mainly to tidy the chain when the bike is folded, and the derailleur function is a srcondary feature. If you add more chain, the arm will run out of travel and the chain will flop about after folding the bike.


Thanks for that , reason I ask is I've put a smaller chain ring on


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## gizmo1994 (4 Oct 2020)

Smaller chainring? Did you also take a couple of links out of the chain or buy a chain to match the new chainring size?


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## rafiki (4 Oct 2020)

clid61 said:


> Thanks for that , reason I ask is I've put a smaller chain ring on


This should help you to know the size you should have: Brompton chain length chart.


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## shingwell (4 Oct 2020)

Also with such small wheels, if it was vertical it would be very near the ground dirt & water.


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## Tenkaykev (5 Oct 2020)

gizmo1994 said:


> Smaller chainring? Did you also take a couple of links out of the chain or buy a chain to match the new chainring size?



I swapped out the 50 for a 44 on my Brompton. Ran it for a while with the standard chain to see how I got on with it. The chain pensioner took up the slack and there were no issues with it at all. I did eventually remove a couple of links when I decided to keep the 44 on permanently.


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## Tripster (7 Oct 2020)

steveindenmark said:


> Its a clever design. If only they would sort out the plastic gear levers and awful pedals.



pedals easily changed, how many bikes come with those awful plastic pedals, reflectors and a packet of toe straps..... premium bikes no pedals at all.


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## FrankCrank (7 Oct 2020)

If you can afford a couple of grand or so , you can get a CHPT3 Brommie, which comes without mudguards. It does have some titanium parts though, but mudguards just wouldn't do for a collaboration with a TDF stage winner. Wonder if they'll follow this up with a folding TDF type bike. A cynic might say that the way Brommie prices are going, they'll soon cost as much as a TDF bike, but of course, I'm not a cynic


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## cougie uk (7 Oct 2020)

The Chpt3 has been around for a few years now but in small numbers. 

You can still pick up normal Bromptons for 1/3 of the Chpt3 price. 

A Brompton without guards just seems silly to me.


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## rualexander (7 Oct 2020)

You are talking about the chain tensioner I think, not the derailleur.


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## Tripster (7 Oct 2020)

cougie uk said:


> The Chpt3 has been around for a few years now but in small numbers.
> 
> You can still pick up normal Bromptons for 1/3 of the Chpt3 price.
> 
> A Brompton without guards just seems silly to me.



some ridiculous prices on flea bay, £2500 for a black edition, over 3k for a used older model Chpt3 or even £5500 for the new Chpt3 !!!!! Standard Bromptons asking a high price too.


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## Kell (7 Oct 2020)

clid61 said:


> I have recently bought a 6 speed . Is there any reason the derailure is virtually horizontal ? As other with less gears are virtually vertical



It's mostly because what looks like the derailleur isn't really a derailleur. It's a chain tensioner.

The job of actually changing the cogs at the back is done by a chain pusher. If it didn't fold, the one-speed and three-speed versions wouldn't need it at all because the chain doesn't move cogs.





Tripster said:


> Standard Bromptons asking a high price too.




I've just filled in another Brompton survey and reading between the lines, even with the prices they charge, I think they're looking at moving manufacturing 'offshore' somewhere.

Pretty sure that the last three surveys I've filled in have mentioned something like: *How important is to you that the Brompton is built in the UK? *And then in another question: *Are you prepared to pay more for goods made in the UK?*


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## clid61 (7 Oct 2020)

Kell said:


> It's mostly because what looks like the derailleur isn't really a derailleur. It's a chain tensioner.
> 
> The job of actually changing the cogs at the back is done by a chain pusher. If it didn't fold, the one-speed and three-speed versions wouldn't need it at all because the chain doesn't move cogs.
> 
> ...


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## steveindenmark (7 Oct 2020)

Tripster said:


> pedals easily changed, how many bikes come with those awful plastic pedals, reflectors and a packet of toe straps..... premium bikes no pedals at all.


The pedals are easily changed. But for the price you pay for a Brompton you would think they would come with decent pedals. 

DF bikes come with cheap pedals as the manufacturers are aware they will probanly be changed. 

There is much less choice with folding pedals.


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## Tripster (7 Oct 2020)

steveindenmark said:


> The pedals are easily changed. But for the price you pay for a Brompton you would think they would come with decent pedals.
> 
> DF bikes come with cheap pedals as the manufacturers are aware they will probanly be changed.
> 
> There is much less choice with folding pedals.


True, but then again for the price you pay top end you would expect decent pedals rather than none. But you are right, maybe the Bromptons should come with a choice of pedals depending on usage and footwear... still think they are cool bikes


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## simongt (7 Oct 2020)

rualexander said:


> You are talking about the chain tensioner I think, not the derailleur.


Depends on the definition of 'derailleur', as the six speed has two rear sprockets.


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## cougie uk (7 Oct 2020)

Kell said:


> It's mostly because what looks like the derailleur isn't really a derailleur. It's a chain tensioner.
> 
> The job of actually changing the cogs at the back is done by a chain pusher. If it didn't fold, the one-speed and three-speed versions wouldn't need it at all because the chain doesn't move cogs.
> 
> ...



I hope not. I'd not be buying another Brompton if they did move abroad.


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## Kell (8 Oct 2020)

cougie uk said:


> I hope not. I'd not be buying another Brompton if they did move abroad.



I *think* that's what they're trying to assess.


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## Kell (8 Oct 2020)

simongt said:


> Depends on the definition of 'derailleur', as the six speed has two rear sprockets.



That's true, but the chain tensioner is entirely passive. It's the chain pusher which does the work.


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## Tripster (8 Oct 2020)

Kell said:


> I *think* that's what they're trying to assess.



This quote from CEO would come back to bite him then ........


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## Kell (8 Oct 2020)

It's just a feeling I get. 

Everyone complains about Bromptons being expensive, but when you're paying workers appropriate wages for the UK, then it's going to affect the price.

It may be that the reason they're asking might be to pacify shareholders - in as much as they could go back and say "If we move production, we'll reduce cots, but no one will buy the bike". 

It's all conjecture and a massive assumption on my part. But I'd be very surprised if someone has not at least suggested it to increase profits. 

Next time you fill in the survey, just look out for how many different ways you're asked about quality, Britishness and justification of the price point.


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## Kell (8 Oct 2020)

Oh - and keep voting for disc brakes


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## Pale Rider (8 Oct 2020)

steveindenmark said:


> But for the price you pay for a Brompton you would think they would come with decent pedals.



What's wrong with the pedals?

The folding one is quite neat, and the cage design of both is appropriate for a compact folder.

I've not heard of reliability problems.

I agree some of the other finishing kit is cheap and nasty.


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## mitchibob (9 Oct 2020)

Kell said:


> Oh - and keep voting for disc brakes



And tubeless rims! 

While disc brakes could be great, although worry about the additional amount of crap they'd pick up being that bit lower down. Plus then, you really want to add through-axles, and perhaps Classified could do a 3-speed version of their hub gear, or just have an extra sprocket or two, and have electronic shifting. Would make rear-punctures less hassle on the side of the road.


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## Flying Dodo (9 Oct 2020)

steveindenmark said:


> Its a clever design. If only they would sort out the plastic gear levers and awful pedals.


It's NOT a clever design. The chain pusher concept is Heath-Robinson in the way it's put together. It's a nightmare just to change the gear cable. If you're replacing the chain pusher as well, you need to regularly switch between 1.5mm, 2.5mm and 3mm allen keys. Assuming of course you can actually buy the correct length of cable depending upon exactly what model Brompton you've got. And that's once you've got over the ridiculous cost of any parts. For example £4.99 just for the 1.5mm locknut which goes on the end of the cable.

/Rant over.


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## steveindenmark (10 Oct 2020)

Of course its a clever design. The number of bikes sold confirms that. It could certainly be better, no doubt about that.


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## Kell (10 Oct 2020)

Here’s the latest survey if you want to make your feelings known.

Out of 48 questions I’d estimate that 5 or 6 directly or indirectly reference production location, production quality and paying extra for that perceived quality. 

https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/SZRSSYF


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## berlinonaut (10 Oct 2020)

Flying Dodo said:


> It's NOT a clever design. The chain pusher concept is Heath-Robinson in the way it's put together. It's a nightmare just to change the gear cable. If you're replacing the chain pusher as well, you need to regularly switch between 1.5mm, 2.5mm and 3mm allen keys. Assuming of course you can actually buy the correct length of cable depending upon exactly what model Brompton you've got. And that's once you've got over the ridiculous cost of any parts. For example £4.99 just for the 1.5mm locknut which goes on the end of the cable.
> 
> /Rant over.


Why on earth should one replace the chain pusher? Also you seem not to be aware that the cable design has changed already back in 2017. With the newer version of the dogleg that got invented along with the new shifters the cable is much easier to change (and it is now a standard cable as well) and the locknut you mention is no longer there. Plus you only had to buy a new locknut in case you managed to loose or damage the old one (which obviously is not the standard/normal case).

Apart from that: While I did it change the cables with the old version a couple of times it has always been due to modifying the bike, not because it was necessary. Buying the correct length of cable is not too hard as for one they provide the preconfigured cables for each bar version (are you really surprised that different bar heights need cables of different length? ), all you have to know is which bars you have. Of course you can always buy the longest version and cut it down as you need it (as you would need to do with any other bike). So you do complain about a level of comfort that you do not need to make use of and that other bike companies do not even offer. So I think your rant does not only go over the top - it is completely misleading and furthermore (even if it was correct contentwise) targeting a system that is out of production for 3,5 years already.


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## Pale Rider (10 Oct 2020)

Kell said:


> Here’s the latest survey if you want to make your feelings known.
> 
> Out of 48 questions I’d estimate that 5 or 6 directly or indirectly reference production location, production quality and paying extra for that perceived quality.
> 
> https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/SZRSSYF



I wonder why Brompton doesn't offer a modern multi-speed (more than three) gear hub, rather than pratting around with chain pushers.

They obviously accept more than three speeds are required, because they offer six.

Perhaps it's weight.

I've only ever handled an Alfine 11 and a Rohloff out of the box.

Both are heavy lumps.


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## sheddy (10 Oct 2020)

The plastic seat post sleeve for fixing seat height - can it be fitted to all bromptons, regardless of age ?


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## FrankCrank (10 Oct 2020)

I expect any modification would detract from it's quirkiness/quaintness/eccentricity/bromticiousness...........well, I'm sure you get the idea


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## Flying Dodo (10 Oct 2020)

berlinonaut said:


> Why on earth should one replace the chain pusher? Also you seem not to be aware that the cable design has changed already back in 2017. With the newer version of the dogleg that got invented along with the new shifters the cable is much easier to change (and it is now a standard cable as well) and the locknut you mention is no longer there. Plus you only had to buy a new locknut in case you managed to loose or damage the old one (which obviously is not the standard/normal case).
> 
> Apart from that: While I did it change the cables with the old version a couple of times it has always been due to modifying the bike, not because it was necessary. Buying the correct length of cable is not too hard as for one they provide the preconfigured cables for each bar version (are you really surprised that different bar heights need cables of different length? ), all you have to know is which bars you have. Of course you can always buy the longest version and cut it down as you need it (as you would need to do with any other bike). So you do complain about a level of comfort that you do not need to make use of and that other bike companies do not even offer. So I think your rant does not only go over the top - it is completely misleading and furthermore (even if it was correct contentwise) targeting a system that is out of production for 3,5 years already.



It's a rant for them designing it badly in the first place! You're forgetting bikes shops still have to maintain these badly designed bikes as customers won't want to fork out for upgrading to the latest version.


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## Flying Dodo (10 Oct 2020)

Pale Rider said:


> I wonder why Brompton doesn't offer a modern multi-speed (more than three) gear hub, rather than pratting around with chain pushers.
> 
> They obviously accept more than three speeds are required, because they offer six.
> 
> Perhaps it's weight.



I had a 6 speed hub on a Brompton for a while. Slightly heavier but not a major issue. It certainly looks much neater and far more intuitive for an everyday person using the bike, rather than faffing around with 2 levers. A lot of people don't understand gears, so the simpler a system is, the better.


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## rogerzilla (10 Oct 2020)

Kell said:


> Here’s the latest survey if you want to make your feelings known.
> 
> Out of 48 questions I’d estimate that 5 or 6 directly or indirectly reference production location, production quality and paying extra for that perceived quality.
> 
> https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/SZRSSYF


Worst. Survey. Ever.


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## berlinonaut (11 Oct 2020)

Flying Dodo said:


> I had a 6 speed hub on a Brompton for a while. Slightly heavier but not a major issue. It certainly looks much neater and far more intuitive for an everyday person using the bike, rather than faffing around with 2 levers. A lot of people don't understand gears, so the simpler a system is, the better.


I am wondering what kind of hub this was? I am not aware of any 6 speed geared hub.


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## berlinonaut (11 Oct 2020)

Pale Rider said:


> I wonder why Brompton doesn't offer a modern multi-speed (more than three) gear hub, rather than pratting around with chain pushers.
> 
> They obviously accept more than three speeds are required, because they offer six.
> 
> ...


They used to offer the S/A Sprinter hub with five speeds back in the nineties. When S/A went bust in 2000 Brompton suffered from a trauma as they only just managed to get alternative geared hubs from Sachs before running out of hub stock. Unfortunately only the Sachs 3-speed hub fitted into the Brompton rear frame, no other geared hub from Sachs and none from any other manufacturer. They learned their lesson to have a second line of defense and liked the idea of being able to switch between Sachs/SRAM and S/A als their source for hubs (and used both in parallel between 2005 and 2009). Today the situation has changed as SRAM has stopped making geared hubs, so Bromton is totally dependent from S/A again. The limitation is the OLD of the rear frame - being 112mm it is much slicker than any standard and leaves not much choice. S/A offer a five speed of that size (SRF5w) but it has a spread of only 256% and gear steps of 33% - so in comparison to the BWR no gain apart from being able to use a single-lever but a couple of things that are worse.
S/A also do offer an 8-speed hub that can fit into the Brompton rear frame w/o spreading the frame (XRF8w). Problem here is that it is about 1kg heavier, only the inner six gears are nicely spread and the hub is very sensitive to misallignment (which at the same time happens easily). The range is 325%, so not much more than the BWR. And obviously it is more expensive as well. Plus it will create huge support cost due to it's tendency to eat gear cables for breakfast which will as a consequence have weird shifting behaviour. 

Obviously you can use a Schlumpf drive as well but this adds cost, weight and complexity (but has been offered by Brompton until 2008 or so after S/A went bust). So if you think about it the BWR 6-speed may seem quirky but is in fact a good solution, simple, cheap, light and still with a decent range. Not to forget that the first generation of 6 speeds, using the SRAM 3-speed as a basis, only offered 225% spread (in comparison to the 179% of the 3-speed), only the invention of the BWR (which was dedicatedly developed for Brompton) pushed it to 30x%, so into the range of the 8-speeds (which btw. did not exist yet when Brompton's drailleur system was invented). 

Basically any other hub will need a wider rear frame then Brompton offers today, still 8-speed hubs (independent from the manufacturer) do not offer more range than the BWR but cost more and weight at least a kilo more at higher cost. Personally I've ridden most the possible hubs in a Brompton including the various 8 speed hubs and the Rohloff. My favorite is the 2-speed (due to nippyness and weight), the BWR modified to 9 speed (sufficient range, nice gear steps, low weight, low friction) and the Rohloff (bombproof and more than you need but expensive and heavy, so not for everyday usage). Of the 8 speeds I would prefer the Nexus premium over the S/A but still do not like it too much. The most sold version in the UK is the three speed as obviously most riders seem to consider it as sufficient and a good choice and compromise. Personally I don't like it too much but for Brompton's vision "urban transport" it is probably a good fit. 

An offer for a different new multi-gear hub would create an immense layer of complexity in production and support cost (due to the rear frame), make the bike even more expensive and still only serve a fraction of the users and not fit Brompton's vision of the bike. Those who really want a different hub are well served by various aftermarket offerings from 3rd parties and while the demand is there it is far far from being massive - not relevant for mass production and the downsides overrule the positives. Possibly if Brompton ever go for disc brakes they may rethink the hub lineup as well as then they would have to change the frame anyway. 

However: The cheapest way to make the gear situation better would be to add a third sprocket to the six speed - a little more range, very nice, even gear steps, no modifications to the bike apart from an additional sprocket and a modified shifter and thus cheap to do, especially as an offer from the factory. However: I doubt that they will do that.


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## Tenkaykev (11 Oct 2020)

berlinonaut said:


> They used to offer the S/A Sprinter hub with five speeds back in the nineties. When S/A went bust in 2000 Brompton suffered from a trauma as they only just managed to get alternative geared hubs from Sachs before running out of hub stock. Unfortunately only the Sachs 3-speed hub fitted into the Brompton rear frame, no other geared hub from Sachs and none from any other manufacturer. They learned their lesson to have a second line of defense and liked the idea of being able to switch between Sachs/SRAM and S/A als their source for hubs (and used both in parallel between 2005 and 2009). Today the situation has changed as SRAM has stopped making geared hubs, so Bromton is totally dependent from S/A again. The limitation is the OLD of the rear frame - being 112mm it is much slicker than any standard and leaves not much choice. S/A offer a five speed of that size (SRF5w) but it has a spread of only 256% and gear steps of 33% - so in comparison to the BWR no gain apart from being able to use a single-lever but a couple of things that are worse.
> S/A also do offer an 8-speed hub that can fit into the Brompton rear frame w/o spreading the frame (XRF8w). Problem here is that it is about 1kg heavier, only the inner six gears are nicely spread and the hub is very sensitive to misallignment (which at the same time happens easily). The range is 325%, so not much more than the BWR. And obviously it is more expensive as well. Plus it will create huge support cost due to it's tendency to eat gear cables for breakfast which will as a consequence have weird shifting behaviour.
> 
> Obviously you can use a Schlumpf drive as well but this adds cost, weight and complexity (but has been offered by Brompton until 2008 or so after S/A went bust). So if you think about it the BWR 6-speed may seem quirky but is in fact a good solution, simple, cheap, light and still with a decent range. Not to forget that the first generation of 6 speeds, using the SRAM 3-speed as a basis, only offered 225% spread (in comparison to the 179% of the 3-speed), only the invention of the BWR (which was dedicatedly developed for Brompton) pushed it to 30x%, so into the range of the 8-speeds (which btw. did not exist yet when Brompton's drailleur system was invented).
> ...



Many thanks once again Berlinonaut. Having the pros and cons of the practicalities so succinctly explained by someone who has actually "Walked the walk" is invaluable 👍🍺


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## Pale Rider (11 Oct 2020)

The third party makers seem able to make various gear hubs fit with little difficulty.

Brompton, with its maker's research and development facility ought to be able to do it at a canter.

I have little sympathy with Brompton over costs.

They've been making a £300 bike and charging a grand for it for years.

Part of the problem is current management seem more interested in special editions based around fad and fashion, and 'trendy' Brompton Junction stores than they are in improving the product.

Remains to be seen if this strategy continues to work, but there is only so much you can do with window dressing.

There are very few products - Dualit toasters is one - whose success is based on them being an ancient design which is never updated.

Brompton might be the same, or it might eventually get overtaken and become an anachronism.

Given their hamfisted attempt at an e-Brompton, perhaps they are better off staying in the 1970s and waiting for the axe to fall.

Even if that happens in the next few years, they could certainly say they'd had a good run.


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## berlinonaut (11 Oct 2020)

Pale Rider said:


> The third party makers seem able to make various gear hubs fit with little difficulty.
> Brompton, with its maker's research and development facility ought to be able to do it at a canter.


You completely miss the point. Of course Brompton could do that. But it does neither fit what they want to achieve nor the customer demand. Plus you cannot compare the way how small one-man-bands work with big scale production. Brompton produce around 50.000 bikes a year. The multi-hub-gear modifications are mostly done by Juliane Neuss and by Ben Cooper. Steve Parry seems to have lost his prominent spot (and maybe interest as well) in modifying Bromptons, Vostok (who offered a wider rear frame) seem something between very unreliable and out of production, Graham of Tillercycles gave up his business. Other than that there is Brommiplus, who sell S/A 5- and 8-speed kits from Taiwan and Vincend van Eerd, who creates very innovative builds but also not at big scale. So the only ones doing something like a manufacture production seem to be Juliane and Ben. I know Juliane pretty well and thus know about how many conversions she has done over the last ~20 years since she offers it (first Nexus 7, then Nexus 8). Ben seems to post most of his builds on instagram or his website. It is a pretty safe bet to assume that _over the last ~20 years_ not more than maybe ~2500 of those conversions have been made overall, including all offerings (and that is a _*very*_ optimistic guesstimate). Again: Brompton built 50.000 bikes _each year _(and have sold more than 600.000 bikes over the last 20 years, the period when those max. 2.500 conversions were made). While this is a nice business for mechanics aftermarket (and good for the customers that it exists) it is simply not a business case for Brompton, even considering that probably many more people would buy a multi-geared hub if it was offered directly from the factory.



Pale Rider said:


> I have little sympathy with Brompton over costs.
> They've been making a £300 bike and charging a grand for it for years.


This is ridiculous and you know that. If the bike is that bad and overpriced and does not even offer what you want you are simple not their customer or the customer they are targeting. The big question is: Why do you own a Brompton then, if it is so bad? Why don't you have a differnt bike? And if a multi geared hub is so important to you and you still want a Brompton (whyever you want to have this _overpriced bit of outdated technological crap_ ): Why didn't you go for one of the many conversions that are available? Juliane offers her conversions for more than 20 years now, and the same goes for Steve Parry and Ben Cooper. Maybe you are demandeing something that you are not willing to pay for? So possibly it is not so essential to you, despite you are claiming the opposite...


Pale Rider said:


> Part of the problem is current management seem more interested in special editions based around fad and fashion, and 'trendy' Brompton Junction stores than they are in improving the product.


Brompton are running a business and the job of the management is make this business survive successfully. They have done exactly that. They are constantly at the limit of their production capacity and have been for years. So obviously they do something right, judging from the market. Just not for you - but how many Bromptons have you bought and how many will you buy over the following years? So how relevant ist you opinion?

Don't get me wrong: I heavily dislike Brompton's current way of becoming a fashion item and leaving the way of being an engineer's product. I hate that they drop their USP of sustainability by no longer offering spare parts for older bikes. I hate that in some aspects the quality of their accessories (like bags) seems to become lower than in the earlier years as they look more for fashion than for functionality while the price is still going up. I hate it that, after 30 years, they cancelled the contract with the German importer and plan to sell directly trough their own distribution to the German dealers (as they have done before in the US and Benelux and elsewhere). This will make many things way worse for German dealers and customers. They are following a growth strategy and that means marketing, centralising and cost reduction and this means (upon other things): less variability (as you can i.e. see on the brakes and the suspension block) and ditching non-lucrative but expensive elements of their business (like spare parts for older models).



Pale Rider said:


> Given their hamfisted attempt at an e-Brompton, perhaps they are better off staying in the 1970s and waiting for the axe to fall.


I cannot get the hate that some people, especially in the UK, seem to have against Brompton. The Brompton Electric is, compared to it's competitors, a good bike and not even overpriced. And it is absolutely mandatory to have one for a bike company if they want to survive the next couple of years. It may have it's issues and it is expensive but it gets updated regularly softwarevise and in comparison to other offerings (may it be other electric conversion kits for the Brompton or other pedelecs from major quality brands) it is not overpriced.

Just go and buy a better folding bike. Interested if you are able to find one. If you are not and you are so dead sure that it would be easy to perform better than Brompton does: Go and create your own brand.


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## cougie uk (13 Oct 2020)

Pale Rider said:


> The third party makers seem able to make various gear hubs fit with little difficulty.
> 
> Brompton, with its maker's research and development facility ought to be able to do it at a canter.
> 
> ...


Hamfisted ebike ? I thought it was a neat job myself. Expensive but neat.


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## Pale Rider (13 Oct 2020)

cougie uk said:


> Hamfisted ebike ? I thought it was a neat job myself. Expensive but neat.



It took Brompton something like five or seven years to produce a basic hub drive ebike, which then had many reliability problems.

There's no excuse, the technology has been tried and tested over at least 15 years.

The kit suppliers have been producing the same design - front motor/battery in Brommie bag - for several years.

Their kits are reliable - I had one on my Brompton - cheaper, and you could have them fitted on any model Brompton.

As the manufacturer, Brompton should be able to slaughter the kit companies, particularly given the time they took to 'develop' the design.

Instead, they produced something that was inferior in every way.

'Hamfisted' is being kind.


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## 12boy (13 Oct 2020)

If I ruled the world I'd suggest the following changes:
Chromo frame and forks, not hi-ten.
V-brakes
3 speeds for chain pusher bikes....My chain pusher works perfectly and was easy to install.
I would like to be able to run bigger tires although the only ones I know of are Greenspeeds.
I would also like a more easily repairable rear triangle hinge.
As far as the price goes I think it's reasonable for a handcrafted bike. I would not spend the money for the boutique versions, though. Carry a heavier load or a big one, the front luggage block is great. The fold has yet to be beaten in the price range.I find it to be as much, if not more, fun to ride than my other bikes. The frame has proven very durable in spite of being treated carelessly by me.


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## Arellcat (13 Oct 2020)

Pale Rider said:


> I wonder why Brompton doesn't offer a modern multi-speed (more than three) gear hub, rather than pratting around with chain pushers. They obviously accept more than three speeds are required, because they offer six.



I think the better question is to ask why does Brompton think six speeds are sufficient?

I would suggest that the answer is because for very many buyers, six gears are easily achieved, and are actually plenty for what the bike was designed for, which was to be the ultimate portable and reasonably all-purpose bike. Six gears deal with most likely terrain, provide enough overall range, and eliminate the alternative of huge jumps between ratios from just a (BWR) hub. People who want to ride up 25% hills, or power along at 30mph, or who want expedition level equipment and disc brakes can always go bespoke. A 2x3 setup, perhaps with a double up front as well, was the time-honoured way to get more gears, and still stacks up weightwise compared with a bigger hub gear. The rinky-dink chain pusher is clever and light, but it's idiosyncratic. Personally I think the bike is overgeared for a lot of people, even the flatlanders of London. I dropped mine to a 40t on the front which made it far more useable in the hills of Edinburgh (and the 53t on the outer side of the cranks, that seemed like a good idea for descending turned out to be not much more than a jaggy chainguard).

I do share Berlinonaut's views on endless 'badgineering' though, wherein we have exclusive Not Available In Any Shops! colourways, some of which may be very lovely but really are a variation of polishing a (very nice, admittedly) turd. The bike had to be brought kicking and screaming into the 21st century with decent quality controls, but where has the innovation gone after that? I rode the electric Brompton and was a little underwhelmed. I thought it was well made, with good tractability, but it was unpredictable to ride on gritty surfaces and the user interface was awkward. If I needed an electric folding bike and didn't already own a Brompton, I'd buy it. But the Cytronex kit is the one I'd go for.


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## TheDoctor (14 Oct 2020)

The question of gearing is an interesting one.
My touring bike, 1x before that was a thing, has a 34T chainring and a 12-32 7 speed cassette.
Gear inches are 28, 35, 44, 50, 56, 64, 75.
My M6R had standard gearing of 32, 40, 50, 64, 79, 97 inches - not all that different, except for the 97" top. Now, I can tour on it - I've done ten days round Provence, amongst other things. I missed having a gear between 50" and 64", but it wasn't a show stopper. 
It was a compromise I was prepared to make for the convenience of getting my bike on Eurostar and being able to ride it within a minute of getting off. And Bromptons really are a compromise. If you don't need the fold, you don't really need a Brompton. Equally, I don't need an expensive and heavy gearing option - a lightish one that works is fine.


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## Pale Rider (14 Oct 2020)

Arellcat said:


> I think the bike is overgeared for a lot of people,



So do I.

Having said that, I tested a new model six speed with the reduced gearing which I thought I could just about get away with.


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## 12boy (14 Oct 2020)

I am so different than you folks. Not better, just different. I like having 94 GI available and use it frequently on level paths. Currently running an S-RF3 S-RF3 SA 3 speed with 58 and 38 tooth chainrings and a 13 tooth sprocket......For mild hills or headwinds it's 72 GI and for more seriousclimbs can drop to 35. Good enough for around here. I am too lazy to have much RPMs.


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## berlinonaut (14 Oct 2020)

Pale Rider said:


> The kit suppliers have been producing the same design - front motor/battery in Brommie bag - for several years.


"The kit suppliers" have been producing every possible design: While today the vast majority of them is using front wheel hub drives there are rear wheel drive kits available (currently based on the Italian Zehus motor), mid drives (from a Chinese company and in a different design from Pendix) and friction drives on the rear wheel (Ben Cooper offered on in early 2000s and the add-e is available today). So whichever solution Brompton went for you could always say _"the kit suppliers used the design for serveral years"_ . The front hub one is the most obvious and possibly the best compromise on the current frame design: Again little space in the rear frame, folding stops the usage of a common mid drive and fancy mid-drive-designs like the Vivax Assist do (apart from their conceptional limitations) also not work due to folding.
The main difference (apart from the fact that the kit providers use standard chinese parts and Brompton build their own motor, battery and controller) is that Brompton are using a torque sensor which barely any of the kit-providers offer. From a few you can get one, but for extra money. Most a using a primitive cadence thingy to check if the pedals are moved and the power of the motor is completely independent from the power a rider puts in. A torque sensor feels much more natural and personally I would always prefer it. Bromton also scores in terms of integration: Apart from them only Nano offer an "autoconnect" feature for the Battery in the bag where you do not have to connect/disconnect cables manually (well, Swytch does as well but at the price of not using the front carrier block for any luggage and having a fat ugly connector) and while the nano solution is clever conceptwise it is a bit "russian" in the way it is built, namely the adaptor for the Bosch tool batteries. Bromton also integrated the controller - with most kits you have it nailed somewhere to the frame - and has a much cleaner wiring. So overall while the concept of front drive is identical the integration is on a totally different level as is the technology. Downside is - as with electric most drive-systems from brands - that the system is closed an you are locked in to their proprietary battery.
Other than that they enforced the frame and especially the fork - you can even see it when comparing a Brompton electric fork with a conventional one. Obviously no need to spread the fork - something that the kit providers only achieved recently by using the latest motor from Aikema - before this was available only the heavy direct drives from ebikes.ca did not need spreading the fork. And so on and so on.

So while Brompton use a front wheel drive and most kit providers to the same it is in my eyes a bit ignorant to state that just because of that it would be the same. Apart from the fact that due to the small wheel size on a Brompton the disadvantages of front wheel drives to not weight as much as in bigger wheeled bikes plus it helps with a better weight distribution on the notoriously rear-weight heavy Brompton. It is currently simply a better solution on the Brompton than the alternatives and critic Brompton for using that seems a bit misleading...



Pale Rider said:


> Their kits are reliable - I had one on my Brompton - cheaper, and you could have them fitted on any model Brompton.


Depends on whom you ask. I know a bunch of people who had issues of all kinds over the years with their motor kits on Bromptons from dying motors to insuffient power support to defective controllers. Not too many but the kits do have their weak sides.



Pale Rider said:


> Instead, they produced something that was inferior in every way.


I wouldn't say so. Rather the opposite. But mainly it is just different in many ways, mainly below the surface. Which you obviously won't reconize if you only look at the surface. I'd agree that one would have expected something revolutionary after all those years and the end result looked and looks pretty conventional, still it it way more sophisticated than the usual kits. Plus things like the different carrier block on the Electric that is incompatible with "non-electric" bags is a bit of a disappointment.



Pale Rider said:


> 'Hamfisted' is being kind.


I wouldn't agree.  BTW: While it took Brompton ages to hop on the electric train - isn't it strange that they are the only one of the major folding bike brands offering an electric bike apart from Tern (who sell a heavy expensive bike using a standard mid-drive)? Nothing from Dahon, nothing from Riese and Müller (who ditched the Birdy electric ages ago due to problems), nothing from anybody else? Only smaller brands and cheap no names seem currently to be active in that sector.


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## rogerzilla (14 Oct 2020)

I reduced the gear spread on mine with AM hub internals and made a slight reduction in main drive to 52 x 15. I have to stand up on more hills but I usually have the right gear for headwinds, tailwinds and gentle changes in gradient. With the SRF3, I was never using low gear and rarely using high gear.


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## Pale Rider (14 Oct 2020)

berlinonaut said:


> "The kit suppliers" have been producing every possible design: While today the vast majority of them is using front wheel hub drives there are rear wheel drive kits available (currently based on the Italian Zehus motor), mid drives (from a Chinese company and in a different design from Pendix) and friction drives on the rear wheel (Ben Cooper offered on in early 2000s and the add-e is available today). So whichever solution Brompton went for you could always say _"the kit suppliers used the design for serveral years"_ . The front hub one is the most obvious and possibly the best compromise on the current frame design: Again little space in the rear frame, folding stops the usage of a common mid drive and fancy mid-drive-designs like the Vivax Assist do (apart from their conceptional limitations) also not work due to folding.
> The main difference (apart from the fact that the kit providers use standard chinese parts and Brompton build their own motor, battery and controller) is that Brompton are using a torque sensor which barely any of the kit-providers offer. From a few you can get one, but for extra money. Most a using a primitive cadence thingy to check if the pedals are moved and the power of the motor is completely independent from the power a rider puts in. A torque sensor feels much more natural and personally I would always prefer it. Bromton also scores in terms of integration: Apart from them only Nano offer an "autoconnect" feature for the Battery in the bag where you do not have to connect/disconnect cables manually (well, Swytch does as well but at the price of not using the front carrier block for any luggage and having a fat ugly connector) and while the nano solution is clever conceptwise it is a bit "russian" in the way it is built, namely the adaptor for the Bosch tool batteries. Bromton also integrated the controller - with most kits you have it nailed somewhere to the frame - and has a much cleaner wiring. So overall while the concept of front drive is identical the integration is on a totally different level as is the technology. Downside is - as with electric most drive-systems from brands - that the system is closed an you are locked in to their proprietary battery.
> Other than that they enforced the frame and especially the fork - you can even see it when comparing a Brompton electric fork with a conventional one. Obviously no need to spread the fork - something that the kit providers only achieved recently by using the latest motor from Aikema - before this was available only the heavy direct drives from ebikes.ca did not need spreading the fork. And so on and so on.
> 
> ...



The motor on my 2010 Nano was a Bafang geared hub motor, so I've no idea where you get the notion fitting one to a Brompton is any sort of innovation.

Don't fall for all that marketing bullshine about McLaren developing the Brompton motor - it's a standard part number from a German business to business supplier.

You or I could ring them tomorrow and get 50 or 100 delivered within the week, so why did it take Brompton seven or eight years to do it?

I've no idea where the controller is from, but Brompton, bless them, managed to pick about the only unreliable one out of the dozens available.

The only possible view is their ebike project has been a shambles from start to finish.

Fortunately for Brompton, the public's continuing willingness to pay a premium for their 'emperor's new clothes' products has bailed them out once again.

Despite all that, I'm still tempted to buy another one because it remains one of the better folding bikes.

The eBrompton is the first time the company has been thoroughly out done by the competition.

There's not nearly so much interest in making a push bike folder from the other bike companies - fortunately for Brompton.


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## berlinonaut (15 Oct 2020)

Pale Rider said:


> The motor on my 2010 Nano was a Bafang geared hub motor, so I've no idea where you get the notion fitting one to a Brompton is any sort of innovation.


Where exactly did I say mounting a front motor to a Brompton would be innovation?



Pale Rider said:


> Don't fall for all that marketing bullshine about McLaren developing the Brompton motor - it's a standard part number from a German business to business supplier.
> 
> You or I could ring them tomorrow and get 50 or 100 delivered within the week, so why did it take Brompton seven or eight years to do it?



I heavily doubt that. Just because something has a part number it does not mean it would be a generic product or publicly available. Could you provide me with a source and a price for the motor please?



Pale Rider said:


> I've no idea where the controller is from, but Brompton, bless them, managed to pick about the only unreliable one out of the dozens available.



Oh really? How do you know? And on what basis do you judge? As far as I know Brompton developed their own system in the end, obviously using 3rd party suppliers but designing their own motor and programming their own controller. In opposite to kit manufaturerers where most of them are using generic parts from China.


Pale Rider said:


> Fortunately for Brompton, the public's continuing willingness to pay a premium for their 'emperor's new clothes' products has bailed them out once again.


Oh really? Did you ever compare prices?
A Brompton Electric currently costs 2715 GBP, including lightening and the small bag for the Battery (and obviously including the bike) according to the Brompton Website. It is based on a Black Edition model.

If you go to the Nano website and configure a kit you end up with:
£950 - nano kit with 10Ah battery, charger, motor, pedal/brake sensor and throttle or button display
£110 Compact 6 mini Bags - in a variety of colours
£100 - nano powered lighting inc front and rear Brompton LED lights with nano connectors
£100 - Fittings at nano sites in Marlborough, Yeovil or Leamington Spa (3 hours)
£20 - Fitting lighting at one of the nano workshops
Shipping - £20 kit/battery £50 - whole bike and battery
__________________________________________________________

This sums up to 1330 GBP, obviously w/o the Bike.
A M6L Black Edition costs 1200 GBP, again according to the Brompton website.

So side by side The Brompton electric costs 2715 GBP and a comparable Nano costs 2530 GBP. With the Brompton Electric you get a torque sensor (way advanced over the primitive cadence sensor of the Nano, the torque sensor alone costs 110 GBP as a spare part from SJS) and you get a inforced frame and fork - both not available on the Nano. On top you get a way better and cleaner integrated system than the Nano. To me this would be worth the 185 GBP difference, I cannot see a "premium pricetag" here.

With the Nano you get a slightly bigger Battery (10Ah vs. 8,55 Ah) but as the Nano is consuming more power (according to the tests in AtoB), probably mainly due to the lack of a torque sensor, this puts them on par in practice.

Obviously the advantage of the Nano is that you don't NEED to buy a complete bike and you done need to buy a bag if you already have one, you don't need to buy a Black Edition and you can safe money by mounting the kit yourself. But to be fair again: This is a completely different product then as the Brompton electric - Brompton does not offer retrofit kits (as does basically no other bike manufacturer for their bikes). So comparing the price of a kit with the price of a complete bike seems a bit off. If you compair fairly I'd say the Brompton electric is the better deal if you start from scratch and don't have special requirements.

When it comes to kits and you are a greedy person eager for the cheapest price one could ask why the Nano is so expensive. I.e. there's the kit from Wooshbikes for the Brompton, including a 13 Ah (!) battery mounted to the carrier block and it costs 529 GBP. So with the Nano you pay a whopping 800 GBP premium for the same technology and still get a smaller battery... They are btw. not the only ones in that price region and the motor today is the same with most Brompton kits apart from the Brompton electric. Built into a wheel it costs around 150€ plus shipping if you import it as a single purchase as a private person via Alibaba. So maybe you have to rethink your argument and to recalibrate, where the premium charge is (or your criteria for claiming there would be an unjustified premium).


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## Pale Rider (15 Oct 2020)

berlinonaut said:


> Where exactly did I say mounting a front motor to a Brompton would be innovation?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Kit suppliers also make a profit shock.

Brompton, on buying power alone, ought to be able to thrash the kit company.

But oh no, they charge more for what is effectively the same product - with the exception the Brompton one is crappy and unreliable.

If you reckon that's better, fine - there's no accounting for taste.


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## Kell (15 Oct 2020)

berlinonaut said:


> Said some stuff about prices...



I tend to agree here with the pricing argument. 

If you were starting from scratch with no Brompton, I don't see a rational argument for going with a third party e-conversion over and above buying a Brompton. There's not a good pricing argument to me. I've not investigated the tech as they don't interest me yet, but I'm sure I will when they do.


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## berlinonaut (15 Oct 2020)

Dogtrousers said:


> Given the choice of a single hub gear that offered me the gearing range I wanted and the existing klunky 6 speed design I'd have gone for the single hub in a flash. I'd even have paid a small premium for it. And I'd have accepted a weight penalty. But there's no way I'm going to dive into the complexities of the after market, especially not as I have already paid for my 6 speed. I don't want it that much that I'm prepared to pay twice. I doubt I'm alone there.



That's an interesting one. I wholeheartly agree that - given the choice - probably the majority of buyers would prefer i.e. a Nexus 8 speed over the Brompton 6-speed solution. Nonthelast because the 6-speed is such an uncommon solution and everyone has to get used to it. But on the other hand: I'd assume that most Brompton buyers are not bike enthusiasts, so basically they cannot judge based on the technical data what effects a certain specification will have on them in daily life. Most people still assume: More gears is better because more gears is faster and small wheels is slow as you will have to spin you legs like mad.  When standing on the traffic lights on my daily commute and looking at other cyclists the vast majority of them never use their gears - they arrive at the traffic lights in the highest gear and start off in the highest gear, having to smashtheir whole weight on the cranks to come into movement. So even the absolute plain basics of the concept of gears seems to be foreign to a lot of cyclists. On the other hand: The first thing when someone is interested in my Brompton is that he or she lifts it, especially when it's folded. In most cases this is my H2Lx with dynamo, mudguards and telescopic post, so still relatively light. Almost always the reaction is: _"Oh, that's heavy!"_ And that's a titanium 2-speed, weighting around 11kg in my configuration. I had an steel M8RD with telescopic seat post and a Brooks for a while - this ended up at ~14,5kg. This was clearly beyond my sweet spot what I was willing to carry on a daily basis (and about the weight you'd end up with with a 8-speed hub gear Brompton). So - at least in my eyes - the additional weight would really drive away people interested in the bike once they lift it plus it is a bigger downside in daily usage than one would assume beforehand in the shop. My personal limit of comfort is around the 12,5 kilo-mark. So that's the perspective of the user and buyer.

If we look at the perspective of Brompton: It would clearly not make sense to offer both, the existing 6-speed and an 8-speed in parallel as they would canibalize each other. As outlined before the 8-speed would add a lot of additional complexity and variability. To make this worth it for Brompton it would need to offer huge advantages in usage (a question of the viewpoint and perspective) AND it would need to offer a lot of additional sales potential. I would not bet on that plus - given the fact that Brompton is constantly at the limit of their production capacity - they do have absolutely no need to add that additional complexity and variability to their lineup. Especially given the fact that they over the last years desperately try shrink their variability in favor of higher efficiency to be able to scale. Additionally pople - not the last in this very forum - constantly complain that Bromptons would be too expensive/overpriced. An 8-speed hub would make them even more expensive and - at the same time - rise even more critics as probably people would compare what an 8-speed conventional bike costs (which they cannot do with the BWR as there is no comparison on the market). So at least currently not much to win for Brompton but a lot to loose....



Dogtrousers said:


> That said, I'm perfectly happy with my 6 speed. It's not all that intuitive to use and it's a bit ugly but it gets the job done.


And that's what counts in the end. Possibly the quirkyness of the BWR is even a perfect fit to the quirky image of the Brompton as a bike, so it fits the brand better than a conventional hub gear.


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## berlinonaut (15 Oct 2020)

Pale Rider said:


> Kit suppliers also make a profit shock.


So kit suppliers are greedy bastards as well in your opinion? Is there actually anyone you like? 


Pale Rider said:


> Brompton, on buying power alone, ought to be able to thrash the kit company.


Why should they? Apart that you want them to do that.


Pale Rider said:


> But oh no, they charge more for what is effectively the same product


Well, it is _not_ the same product. It is the same product in the same way that a Dacia is the same product as let's say a Renault.


Pale Rider said:


> - with the exception the Brompton one is crappy and unreliable.


You keep claiming that but still lack any evidence. Do you have own experience? Do you have statistical data? Do you have any details other than second and third hand opinion (if at least that)? Is there any actual foundation for your claims? I do not own a Brompton electric but have ridden one and know some people who own one. I've neither experienced issues myself nor heard of any from the owners. There have been forum posts about issues but to a very limited amount and not more (but rather less) than with any given conversion kit. Given my own experience there is room for improvement with the power-levers in my opinion it is nothing dramatic, can be (and is) done via software updates and the whole thing behaves rather unspectacular (which is a good thing for a pedelec).


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## Pale Rider (15 Oct 2020)

Kell said:


> If you were starting from scratch with no Brompton, I don't see a rational argument for going with a third party e-conversion over and above buying a Brompton



The rational argument is you can convert any spec Brompton, and you also have battery and Brommie bag options.

Choice of colour could be enough to swing it for some.

Equally, I'm sure there are factory Brompton ebike buyers who are not interested in all the push bike options, or don't understand them and find them daunting.

A factory e-Brompton is good for them - assuming they take the leap of faith the widespread reliability problems have been sorted.


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## Kell (15 Oct 2020)

> The rational argument is you can convert any spec Brompton, and you also have battery and Brommie bag options.



I get it - it's horses for courses.

But I *think* most people would prefer to buy the whole kit and caboodle from Brompton because they'll get a warranty for the whole bike. Now that an official route is available, I can't see the majority of people buying their chosen Brompton then opting to fit an 'unknown' third party supplier. Especially as the price difference is relatively small. If you could buy a Brompton and convert for under 2k, I can see more people going that route. But for the sake of a couple of hundred pounds, I'm not so sure.

I put unknown in inverted commas as often it's familiarity that encourages trust even if those unknowns may have more experience in doing it...

In the same vein, I'd rather wait until Brompton release their own version of disc brakes to make that switch. Not least because I trust that a company like Brompton will have ensured that their forks can take the additional forces. It might be the case that those smaller companies offering conversions have never had a failure, but that's how I think. (And because I think like that, I assume most other people do ;-))


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## Pale Rider (15 Oct 2020)

berlinonaut said:


> So kit suppliers are greedy bastards as well in your opinion? Is there actually anyone you like?



No, just pointing out the stupidity of your pricing 'argument'.

Another point is Brompton refuse to supply the kit fitters, and will come down hard on any dealer they find doing do.

Thus the kit fitters are forced to buy 'undercover' and pay full retail, so the only profit they can make on a complete bike is on the kit.

As regards my evidence of unreliability, that's largely from my local Brompton dealer.

A trusted source, given he's been a friend for 25 years.

And before you continue your usual snidey personal attacks, he is also mad keen on Bromptons, and has backed them ever since he opened his bike shop in the 1980s.



Kell said:


> I get it - it's horses for courses.
> 
> But I *think* most people would prefer to buy the whole kit and caboodle from Brompton because they'll get a warranty for the whole bike. Now that an official route is available, I can't see the majority of people buying their chosen Brompton then opting to fit an 'unknown' third party supplier. Especially as the price difference is relatively small. If you could buy a Brompton and convert for under 2k, I can see more people going that route. But for the sake of a couple of hundred pounds, I'm not so sure.
> 
> ...



Initial indications are there's room for both kit and original equipment in what is small a relatively small market.

I spoke to Nano pre-lockdown and their business was doing OK, certainly no indication the introduction of a factory e-Brompton is going to wipe out kits.

If anything, the introduction seems to have sparked general interest in the sector.

People then realised the factory e-Brompton was at best unremarkable and at worst a heap of unreliable junk, well, it would have been rude of Nano not to step in and assist the ebiking public with something that worked.


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## CaptainWheezy (15 Oct 2020)

berlinonaut said:


> There have been forum posts about issues but to a very limited amount and not more (but rather less) than with any given conversion kit.


You should join the Brompton Electric group on Facebook, there have been plenty of people with problems, many requiring replacement motors or controllers. I personally know of one owner who after so many problems, rejected the bike and received a refund. The fact they still haven't got the promised app and Bluetooth connectivity sorted after all this time speaks volumes about their competence.


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## TheDoctor (16 Oct 2020)

[Mod hat]
Can we keep it civilised please? Page 4 was starting to get a bit much.

As you were 
[/Mod hat]


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## Pale Rider (17 Oct 2020)

CaptainWheezy said:


> You should join the Brompton Electric group on Facebook, there have been plenty of people with problems, many requiring replacement motors or controllers. I personally know of one owner who after so many problems, rejected the bike and received a refund. The fact they still haven't got the promised app and Bluetooth connectivity sorted after all this time speaks volumes about their competence.



Some of my remarks in this thread may have been a little over the top, but I think this post is a fair summary of the position.

Apps and blueteeth don't interest me on an ebike, so their absence wouldn't stop me buying one.

Handlebar real estate is at a premium on a Brompton, but it's surely possible to fit a Garmin for all the route information a rider could possibly need.

A well written app could provide extra security and give the rider the ability to change motor settings to make the bike ride more to his liking.

I agree that Brompton should have been able to make good on their promise to provide an app - such technology is hardly rocket science in 2020.


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## CaptainWheezy (17 Oct 2020)

Pale Rider said:


> Apps and blueteeth don't interest me on an ebike, so their absence wouldn't stop me buying one.



The main reason this should have been a priority for them is that it would (if they've designed it properly) enable firmware updates without having to visit a dealer. The idea that in this day and age you need to book the bike in for a service at great inconvenience to yourself just to update firmware is just ridiculous.


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## Pale Rider (17 Oct 2020)

CaptainWheezy said:


> The main reason this should have been a priority for them is that it would (if they've designed it properly) enable firmware updates without having to visit a dealer. The idea that in this day and age you need to book the bike in for a service at great inconvenience to yourself just to update firmware is just ridiculous.



As a general point, is there any need (or way) to update firmware in a closed system?

My 2010 Bosch ebike has never been near a dealer.

It worked nicely when I got it, and it's still working nicely today.

I'm not sure if the firmware could be updated because there's no external socket.

My 2017 Bosch ebike, which has a micro USB socket, started to play up after a few thousand miles.

Problem cured by plugging it into the Bosch diagnostic system and updating it, but I'm not sure that's progress.


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## CaptainWheezy (18 Oct 2020)

Pale Rider said:


> As a general point, is there any need (or way) to update firmware in a closed system?



I'm a software engineer, specifically an embedded software engineer (I write firmware and develop the electronics running it). These days, most of the functionality in a system is provided by the firmware, and it's getting more and more complex. No matter how much verification you do before shipping it, inevitably there will be unforseen bugs that over time will get fixed. Brompton are new to the electronics game, their product is new so more likely to need bug fixes applying. If they made it easier for customers to apply those fixes, customers would be happier and as a bonus the fleet of bikes out in the wild would all be more up to date (less support burden). They could even provide a beta program so a smaller group of customers could aid in testing new releases before pushing the updates out to everyone else (companies such as Garmin provid beta firmware for some products so if you have a bug that is affecting you, you get access to fixes more quickly than if you'd had to wait for a formal release) . The ability to be able to fix your products after shipping is incredibly useful and costs little to implement. I wouldn't touch a Brompton electric with a barge pole until they have proven themselves able to add this functionality.


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## chriscross1966 (30 Oct 2020)

mitchibob said:


> And tubeless rims!
> 
> While disc brakes could be great, although worry about the additional amount of crap they'd pick up being that bit lower down. Plus then, you really want to add through-axles, and perhaps Classified could do a 3-speed version of their hub gear, or just have an extra sprocket or two, and have electronic shifting. Would make rear-punctures less hassle on the side of the road.


I run custom-built disc Bromptons and they survive fine. Issue is price at initial purchase. I suspect the perfectly good Brompton twin pivot rim caliper costs a fraction of what the TRP Spyre2 that I would consider to be minimum spec for cable-actuated disc brakes once you factor in having the discs as well.. Add in the costs of new hub designs, new fork and triangle tooling, and the associated costs of either migrating the whole range (to keep production simple) or the complexity of adding one or both brakes as build options. Not going to happen any time soon unless we get lucky. I love my disc Bromptons but they're a chunk wider than standard when folded as they use 100/135mm hubs... and I've done stoppies on rim braked Bromptons with the current caliper, carbon rims and Clarks carbon pads .... the rim brakes work fine....


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## Kell (30 Oct 2020)

Carbon rims and pads are hardly 'normal' though. 

I ran into the back of a car a couple of years ago simply because it was very wet and my my brakes had no stopping power. 

I run Swissstop BXP Blue too - so not the standard pads. 

No problems at all with them in the dry, I just think for a bike that gets used all year around, discs should definitely be a consideration. 

Despite your assertions above, they must be considering them as they've featured in the last couple of surveys. 

It's probably the one thing that would persuade me to get another Brompton (not that I'm indicative of every owner).


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## berlinonaut (30 Oct 2020)

Kell said:


> I ran into the back of a car a couple of years ago simply because it was very wet and my my brakes had no stopping power.


Was this with a Brompton with modern brakes? The only situation ever where I've reached the limit of the Brompton Dual Pivots was running down a very (!) steep hill over a longer distance with a 30kg+ trailer attached - in this situation an emergency stop would not have been possible as the trailer pushed harder than the brakes could consume comfortably and constantly.
In no other situation did I have a problem and I have been running my Brommi throughout the year for way more than a decade in all wether, traffic and load conditions and on all terrains (including the alps). From experience I defintively consider the Dual Pivots to be absolutely sufficient in all situations apart from extreme loads or very long very steep descents - wich both are still possible but request a slight adjustment in riding style.

If you bang into the back of a car I'd assume the reason being rather more your riding style not being adequate to weather, traffic conditions and possibly your bike than rim brakes being the root cause. The more as especially in the wet most brakes are easily able to block the wheel - more brake power is not possible, thus disc brakes would not make the situation different here. If your rim brakes don't brake in the wet and we are talking about Brompton Dual Pivots it may be cheap or very old (hardened) pads or improper adjustement, not the fact that you are using a rim brake.
I cannot judge finally but to me your story sounds more like a user failure than a technology issue... 



Kell said:


> I run Swissstop BXP Blue too - so not the standard pads.


Did you use them in the situation above, too? As they have not been on the market or popular for too long already I am wondering how this fits you "a couple of years ago".


Kell said:


> Carbon rims and pads are hardly 'normal' though.


In case you have been running carbon rims with normal pads the reason is obvious: They are an improper match - there is a reason why there are special pads for carbon rims and still as far as I can judge carbon rims are not the best idea in combination with rim brakes. Brompton do however not have carbom rims from factory, so not much to complain...


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## Kell (30 Oct 2020)

berlinonaut said:


> Did you use them in the situation above, too? As they have not been on the market or popular for too long already I am wondering how this fits you "a couple of years ago".



Yes - I've been using Swissstop Blue since my original pads ran out. A two-second google search pulls up BXP pads from 2011 , so I don't know why you think they're new...

https://www.probikekit.co.uk/bicycl...ssstop-racepro-brake-blocks-bxp/10787982.html

And yes, my bike has the more modern brakes.

I don't know why you find it hard to believe or that whenever you've not experienced something it must be user error. Brakes were properly adjusted and, as I said, I never had a problem with the rim brakes in the dry. But ... this was absolutely torrential. I was filtering by the side of traffic so wasn't going too fast for what I thought my braking distance was. Conservative estimate would be that I was travelling at sub 7mph , but there was just nothing when I pulled the brakes.

Having run two almost identical bikes (a Dahon Matrix 2008 and a Dahon Matrix 2009) for commuting, I can confidently say that even mechanical discs are better than rim brakes in those sorts of conditions. I'd like to wager that the Brompton's smaller wheels make it even more likely that any water is still on the rims compared to a 26" wheel. I'd be staggered if a disc-equipped Brompton wasn't better in those conditions.




berlinonaut said:


> In case you have been running carbon rims with normal pads the reason is obvious: They are an improper match - there is a reason why there are special pads for carbon rims and still as far as I can judge carbon rims are not the best idea in combination with rim brakes. Brompton do however not have carbom rims from factory, so not much to complain...



This wasn't me, it was in response to Chris saying that 'rim brakes work fine' when he's using carbon wheels and pads.


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## Pale Rider (31 Oct 2020)

The old style brakes on my Brompton were poor in comparison with other push bikes I've ridden.

Although I've never ridden another 16" wheel bike, so I wonder to what extent the Brompton's little wheels restrict its braking ability.

I've done a handful of journeys on a Brompton with the latest brakes.

A worthwhile improvement, although still not up to the standard of a big wheel bike with hydraulic discs.

The wider tyres on my big wheel bikes may make the biggest difference.


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## Gunk (31 Oct 2020)

Pale Rider said:


> The old style brakes on my Brompton were poor in comparison with other push bikes I've ridden.
> 
> Although I've never ridden another 16" wheel bike, so I wonder to what extent the Brompton's little wheels restrict its braking ability.
> 
> ...



The original single pivot side pull callipers were terrible, the later brakes are dual pivot and a huge improvement.


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## roley poley (31 Oct 2020)

the aquaplane of brake blocks on rims during a downpour can catch you out, I find myself constantly squeezing the water out with low pressure on the levers till I find the bite point and know where it hopefully is when I need it


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