# Upper back pain



## aerobrain (5 Sep 2013)

Hi

I'm getting pain in my upper back between my shoulder blades. Its so bad at times that I find it hard to look over my shoulder as I get a shooting pain.

I've tried some adjustment in my saddle and my knees look like they're in the right spot. I know its impossible to say for certain over the net but does this sound like purely an issue with flexibility in my back or could it be something like stem length?

Eventually I want a bike fit but just can't quite afford it right now so wondered if anyone had the same issues and how they solved it.

If its just a tight back/shoulders can anyone recommend any stretches?!

Many thanks

Lee


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## Dusty Bin (5 Sep 2013)

Is that you in your avatar? You look very upright. Could be a number of things though - stem length, bar width - difficult to say without more info.


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## aerobrain (5 Sep 2013)

Yes it is although an old pic, saddle is higher and further back now.

I know it was a long shot asking as like you say lots of factors. Just hoping I can think of something to ease it until I get a proper fit


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## Dusty Bin (5 Sep 2013)

As a long shot, I would say it probably isn't 'flexibility' related - almost certainly position-related. What I mean by that is the problem can probably be fixed through changes to the bike, rather than sending you to a physio. But with current info, the precise nature of the changes are less clear...


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## vickster (5 Sep 2013)

Did you buy the bike from an lbs? I'd go and ask them in the first instance.


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## Globalti (6 Sep 2013)

Your bike looks too small and you look too cramped up. A buddy of mine bought his bike from a local shop who knew nothing about setup and he suffered the same way as you. When he went to a proper bike shop and got a bike fit session and a new bike he couldn't believe how bad the old bike was and felt quite bitter about being sold such a pup.

Post a sideways-on picture on here and people will be able to tell you a bit more about your setup.


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## michaelcycle (6 Sep 2013)

Globalti said:


> Post a sideways-on picture on here and people will be able to tell you a bit more about your setup.



Do this.

If your bike is roughly the right size (it does look a bit small though at first glance) it could be a lack of core stability meaning you are putting undue stress on your upper body to support your weight when cycling. That will improve the more cycling you do if you consciously work on it or you could do some specific exercise for it (which would be my choice.)

With regard to the stretches if the pain is very sharp and it seems like you have torn something then don't do them and see your doc.

Otherwise: http://iglimpse.co.uk/wp_how_to_pre...hes-to-loosen-your-neck-and-shoulder-muscles/


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## aerobrain (6 Sep 2013)

Globalti said:


> Your bike looks too small and you look too cramped up. A buddy of mine bought his bike from a local shop who knew nothing about setup and he suffered the same way as you. When he went to a proper bike shop and got a bike fit session and a new bike he couldn't believe how bad the old bike was and felt quite bitter about being sold such a pup.
> 
> Post a sideways-on picture on here and people will be able to tell you a bit more about your setup.


 
I hope it's not too small, don't think the missus would be happy with me changing it so soon :-)

I'll try and get some pics on the turbo. Might even get a video so I can have a look at how it seems when I pedal.


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## aerobrain (6 Sep 2013)

Just thinking, if it turns out the bike is too small, would a longer stem be a compromise until I eventually get round to changing the bike or is that a too simplistic way of looking at it?


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## HLaB (6 Sep 2013)

It might not be the answer but when I used to wear a peak on the helmet that extra few cm's I needed to lift the head up resulted in a sore neck, just below the shoulder blade. Once I removed the peak I've never never had the problem again. If conditions are such (rain, I wear glasses) wearing a cycling cap does a better job than the peak anyway and without the pain.


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## aerobrain (6 Sep 2013)

HLaB said:


> It might not be the answer but when I used to wear a peak on the helmet that extra few cm's I needed to lift the head up resulted in a sore neck, just below the shoulder blade. Once I removed the peak I've never never had the problem again. If conditions are such (rain, I wear glasses) wearing a cycling cap does a better job than the peak anyway and without the pain.


 
Thanks for the reply, my current helmet doesn't have a peak but it's probably worth me thinking about my general riding position!


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## Globalti (6 Sep 2013)

A longer stem might help.


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## michaelcycle (6 Sep 2013)

aerobrain said:


> Just thinking, if it turns out the bike is too small, would a longer stem be a compromise until I eventually get round to changing the bike or is that a too simplistic way of looking at it?



Yes, within reason (and you don't intend racing anytime soon!)


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## aerobrain (6 Sep 2013)

michaelcycle said:


> Yes, within reason (and you don't intend racing anytime soon!)


 
Yeah I certainly wouldn't class my rides as racing :-) And with it being winter I won't be doing any of my real long distance rides.

I think really I need to start popping some pennies in the piggy and get a bike fit done asap!!! I'll try and get some pics up later as well in case anyone can spot the obvious. I've done a check on my knees and they're pretty much in line with the front of the crank, probably a few mm forward so think my saddle's about right.


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## michaelcycle (6 Sep 2013)

aerobrain said:


> I think really I need to start popping some pennies in the piggy and get a bike fit done asap!!!



Can't you get your LBS to give you some pointers in the first instance?

If I were you I would get a plumb bob and goniometer off Amazon (very cheap - less than £12 in total), borrow a trainer (free) and ask your wife (very high maintenance costs if she is anything like mine) to help you get your basic set up right. There are loads of simple bike fit vids on You Tube on how to do this. Or you could use something like this as a more complex guide: http://bikedynamics.co.uk/guidelines.htm

Then as you ride make small adjustments going by feel once you are in the correct ballpark.

If that doesn't work and you continue to have pain due to biomechanical issues then a bike fit should do you right...


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## aerobrain (6 Sep 2013)

michaelcycle said:


> Can't you get your LBS to give you some pointers in the first instance?
> 
> If I were you I would get a plumb bob and goniometer off Amazon (very cheap - less than £12 in total), borrow a trainer (free) and ask your wife (very high maintenance costs if she is anything like mine) to help you get your basic set up right. There are loads of simple bike fit vids on You Tube on how to do this. Or you could use something like this as a more complex guide: http://bikedynamics.co.uk/guidelines.htm
> 
> ...


 
I've seen some of those pics before, possibly on a You Tube clip. I'm hoping that if I can get some decent pics/video I can take some of the measurements myself. If anything it'll say I'm way off or in the ballpark.

Thanks for the link!!


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## HLaB (6 Sep 2013)

A bit of a plug for a mate's business but you could consider a retul bike fit.

http://www.corecyclingsolutions.com/


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## aerobrain (6 Sep 2013)

HLaB said:


> A bit of a plug for a mate's business but you could consider a retul bike fit.
> 
> http://www.corecyclingsolutions.com/


 
I think that's a bit out of my price range :-)


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## aerobrain (6 Sep 2013)

Does anyone know of any free video software that allows you to overlay lines etc to measure angles?


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## Dusty Bin (6 Sep 2013)

Too technical..! 

Would like to see a side-on pic of you on the bike though.


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## aerobrain (6 Sep 2013)

Dusty Bin said:


> Too technical..!
> 
> Would like to see a side-on pic of you on the bike though.


 
I'll get one sorted tonight and possibly load a clip onto youtube.

To be fair, it would probably ne too technical for me, but I like the idea of being able to do it lol :-)


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## aerobrain (6 Sep 2013)

OK, images below and if it helps there's a video clip here:


View: http://youtu.be/EAwRLHQOnyk


From looking at the video I'm now not sure if my saddle is a touch too high?!


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## Dusty Bin (6 Sep 2013)

Judging by the clip, I would say the saddle is slightly too low if anything - and raising it would certainly level your back a little. Overall, the bike looks 'too short'. A longer stem might help in the short term, together with some longer reach bars perhaps, but I think a longer top tube is what you really need.


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## aerobrain (6 Sep 2013)

Dusty Bin said:


> Judging by the clip, I would say the saddle is slightly too low if anything - and raising it would certainly level your back a little. Overall, the bike looks 'too short'. A longer stem might help in the short term, together with some longer reach bars perhaps, but I think a longer top tube is what you really need.



Damn!! Certainly learnt my lesson that next time I'll buy from a shop that does bike fitting!!

Looking at the geometry the next size up (58cm) has a 10mm longer stem and the top tube is 17mm longer in the horizontal plane. My current stem is 100mm so I'm thinking if I look for something around 120-130mm?! Is that logic relatively sound?!


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## aerobrain (6 Sep 2013)

Looking at the Allez size guides I'm pretty much slap bang in the middle of 56/58 frame and as I've got gorila like arms (I'm 6' tall with a 6'7" arm span!) I probably needed to go up rather than down.


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## Dusty Bin (6 Sep 2013)

Certainly a longer stem would be a good start, so yes the logic is sound. I did think your arms looked rather long, but didn't want to say..  

Ultimately, it depends on how flat you want your back to be and/or how much extra reach is needed to alleviate the upper back pain..


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## aerobrain (6 Sep 2013)

Wiggle have got a 130mm FSA stem for just under £25 so probably just order that and give it a go! There was me originally planning to get a shorter one but can definitely see that's wrong after watching the video!

Long term its an excuse to save up for the Tarmac I have my eye on :-D


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## HLaB (6 Sep 2013)

There seems to be a bit much movement in your torso etc; if anything you need to put your saddle up and get a longer stem. Fwiw I'm 5foot 9.25inch and my bianchi is a 55cm and the fixie a 56cm and bike fits have suggested 56cm.


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## aerobrain (6 Sep 2013)

HLaB said:


> There seems to be a bit much movement in your torso etc; if anything you need to put your saddle up and get a longer stem. Fwiw I'm 5foot 9.25inch and my bianchi is a 55cm and the fixie a 56cm and bike fits have suggested 56cm.



I'll have a go with the saddle up a touch and then change the stem over.

Is it literally a case of unbolting old and bolting on new? Its got a front plate so doesn't look like I need to thread the bars out or anything


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## Dusty Bin (6 Sep 2013)

Stem should be a five minute job with a couple of allen keys. Might also be worth thinking about dropping the stem down a bit on the steerer, as I notice you have what looks like around 30mm of spacers underneath at the moment.


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## aerobrain (6 Sep 2013)

Dusty Bin said:


> Stem should be a five minute job with a couple of allen keys. Might also be worth thinking about dropping the stem down a bit on the steerer, as I notice you have what looks like around 30mm of spacers underneath at the moment.



I'm guessing with the spacers you just move them from below to above the stem?


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## HLaB (6 Sep 2013)

aerobrain said:


> I'll have a go with the saddle up a touch and then change the stem over.
> 
> Is it literally a case of unbolting old and bolting on new? Its got a front plate so doesn't look like I need to thread the bars out or anything


Yip, but when you retighten the stem bolts, tighten the top cap one first then the two on the side. And at the face plate tighten each separate bolt a bit at a time.

I would go with changing one thing at a time, the saddle just now (its here); the stem when it comes and later the spacers if its still not comfortable.


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## aerobrain (6 Sep 2013)

HLaB said:


> Yip, but when you retighten the stem bolts, tighten the top cap one first then the two on the side. And at the face plate tighten each separate bolt a bit at a time.
> 
> I would go with changing one thing at a time, the saddle just now (its here); the stem when it comes and later the spacers if its still not comfortable.



Yeah I suppose its best to minimise variables. Stems on order but won't be here til Tues/weds so will fiddle with the saddle first.

Cheers for all the help guys!! Some useful tips


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## fossyant (6 Sep 2013)

Bike fit is quite individual. I'm a short arse at 5.9 but run a 120 or 130mm stem on my bikes - quite stretched out, but I am old school.


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## fossyant (6 Sep 2013)

Thing is, you need to be careful going to stretched out. Do it slowly, as your back will complain.


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## aerobrain (6 Sep 2013)

fossyant said:


> Thing is, you need to be careful going to stretched out. Do it slowly, as your back will complain.



Fair point, I also need to start being serious about stretching after rides I think!!


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## Born2die (6 Sep 2013)

I'm still dialling in after a good month or so. my main problem is I have degradation of my lower spine it won't get worse but it flaming hurts at the mo it will get better as I work my core and back more now the kids are back so I'm really struggling to get comfy. Fwiw I'm 5'8 32" leg with a 55cm boardman race.

@fossyant was meaning stretched out on the bike I think something your new stem will help with (ie reach to the bars) though a good stretch after a ride is always an idea I'm really stretched on my bike but I like it like that I don't like being cramped


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## aerobrain (6 Sep 2013)

Born2die said:


> I'm still dialling in after a good month or so. my main problem is I have degradation of my lower spine it won't get worse but it flaming hurts at the mo it will get better as I work my core and back more now the kids are back so I'm really struggling to get comfy. Fwiw I'm 5'8 32" leg with a 55cm boardman race.
> 
> @fossyant was meaning stretched out on the bike I think something your new stem will help with (ie reach to the bars) though a good stretch after a ride is always an idea I'm really stretched on my bike but I like it like that I don't like being cramped



Yeah sorry badly written reply, I realise he meant on the bike. I just think part of my problem is letting my back, hamstring, hips etc get too tight.


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## Born2die (7 Sep 2013)

Relax and enjoy stretch per and after ride the more you ride the looser you get


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## Globalti (7 Sep 2013)

I disagree about the seat height; I think your pelvis is rocking because the saddle is too high. I would drop it about 5 - 10 mm.

Definitely looks cramped in the length though.

There's another major issue though.... that lawn is a disgrace! When did you last cut it?


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## Dusty Bin (7 Sep 2013)

Globalti said:


> I disagree about the seat height; I think your pelvis is rocking because the saddle is too high. I would drop it about 5 - 10 mm.



Some pelvic movement is inevitable while cycling, regardless of saddle height. The movement is not excessive, which is the main thing. Leg extension (or lack of it) is the main issue.


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## User6179 (7 Sep 2013)

Looks like your knees will hit your elbows if you go on the drops , as been said a longer stem but I would say you need to go higher with the bars instead of lower ,lifting the bars up will put less strain on your back.


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## Crackle (7 Sep 2013)

As others have said a longer stem will help but I reckon it might even need to be pointing down, you look too high and your arms are on the verge of locking. If your arms lock as you ride that's fine most of the time but if it happens when your body is wanting to naturally get lower, that'll cause discomfort.

Longer stem flipped down and or a layback seatpost because your knee seems too far forward of the bb, seems, others need to confirm my view there, I may be wrong.


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## Dusty Bin (7 Sep 2013)

Crackle said:


> As others have said a longer stem will help but I reckon it might even need to be pointing down, you look too high and your arms are on the verge of locking. If your arms lock as you ride that's fine most of the time but if it happens when your body is wanting to naturally get lower, that'll cause discomfort.
> 
> Longer stem flipped down and or a layback seatpost because your knee seems too far forward of the bb, seems, others need to confirm my view there, I may be wrong.



Pretty good call, I reckon.


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## ayceejay (7 Sep 2013)

Bite the bullet: the frame is too small, Can you return it to where you bought it for exchange? I fear that messing about with stem length, seat post lay back etc will exacerbate the discomfort rather than cure it.


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## User6179 (7 Sep 2013)

ayceejay said:


> Bite the bullet: the frame is too small, Can you return it to where you bought it for exchange? I fear that messing about with stem length, seat post lay back etc will exacerbate the discomfort rather than cure it.


 
That's what I thought but didn't want to say.


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## aerobrain (8 Sep 2013)

Went for a ride today and definitely not serious enough to warrant a new bike. Think when I filmed that I was sat a bit upright as my arms aren't normally near locking.

I'll try the longer stem and see how that goes. I've done nearly 1300 miles on it now so can't be all bad, but I do agree that with hindsight I should have gone one size up in the frame.

Can't decide on saddle height, lowered it slightly today after seeing the hip movement but think it may have been right where it was!

I'll probably keep scanning the suggestions in this post and tinkering based on them for a few more rides to see what does/doesn't help.

Cheers guys :-)


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## Dusty Bin (8 Sep 2013)

aerobrain said:


> Can't decide on saddle height, lowered it slightly today after seeing the hip movement but think it may have been right where it was!



needs to go up 5-10mm from where it is in the vid...


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## ayceejay (9 Sep 2013)

airobrain it is then. 
While I was not expecting you to take my advice as gospel the thought of each time of going out on my bike with a new stem length or seat height to see if it increases or decreases my back pain would make me take up croquet.


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## aerobrain (9 Sep 2013)

ayceejay said:


> airobrain it is then.
> While I was not expecting you to take my advice as gospel the thought of each time of going out on my bike with a new stem length or seat height to see if it increases or decreases my back pain would make me take up croquet.


 
I'm not saying I'll be changing everything every ride. Just make a change, ride it for a week or so and see how it feels. If it's no better / worse have a look at some of the suggestions and see which if any to try next. As it's the winter period I won't be doing as many longer rides so an ideal time to have a tinker.

Think the next thing will be to put the saddle back to where it was and just swap the stem to see the affect of that. Then try out some small saddle height adjustments.


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## Crackle (9 Sep 2013)

aerobrain said:


> Went for a ride today and definitely not serious enough to warrant a new bike. Think when I filmed that I was sat a bit upright as my arms aren't normally near locking.
> 
> I'll try the longer stem and see how that goes. I've done nearly 1300 miles on it now so can't be all bad, but I do agree that with hindsight I should have gone one size up in the frame.
> 
> ...



Using a turbo for set up often doesn't work because you hold yourself differently on a turbo, much more static. It's good for rough set up but that's all.


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## michaelcycle (9 Sep 2013)

The frame looks like it is too small but it's not a disaster.

Seat height looks fine but a touch far forwards. Get a longer stem and see how it goes.

I think in reality, this a core strength / stability issue. Work on that off the bike as well if you can.


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