# Formula 1



## Dec66 (30 Jun 2019)

I think perhaps they should now have the qualifying laps on Saturday, and call that the result of the race. A bit like a time trial in cycling.

Then, the next day, just have a nice seventy-lap procession, with all the cars a set distance apart, finishing in the order they qualified the day before, drivers waving to the crowd.

Then, put the wreath on the drivers on the podium, have the ladies kiss them, play the national anthem, spray the champers, and go home.

Yes, this is a comment on the Verstappen/LeClerc thing. It's not a sport any more, it's car pointing. IMO, of course.


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## Slick (30 Jun 2019)

I think your right. It hasn't been the same for years when the likes of Stewart, Lauda, Prost and Senna were battling it out. Of course the danger was ever present so in that respect it is now much better.


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## Levo-Lon (30 Jun 2019)

Dec66 said:


> I think perhaps they should now have the qualifying laps on Saturday, and call that the result of the race. A bit like a time trial in cycling.
> 
> Then, the next day, just have a nice seventy-lap procession, with all the cars a set distance apart, finishing in the order they qualified the day before, drivers waving to the crowd.
> 
> ...




You could try Moto GP
Proper racing


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## Dec66 (30 Jun 2019)

Slick said:


> I think your right. It hasn't been the same for years when the likes of Stewart, Lauda, Prost and Senna were battling it out. Of course the danger was ever present so in that respect it is now much better.


Don't get me wrong, I don't want to see drivers die. 

But I would like to see drivers race, and I'm sure it's what they want, too.


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## Slick (30 Jun 2019)

Dec66 said:


> Don't get me wrong, I don't want to see drivers die.
> 
> But I would like to see drivers race, and I'm sure it's what they want, too.


I didn't mean to imply you did, I just meant the halcyon days of actually racing coincided with the most danger. 

I don't watch it anymore, but would if they did actually race.


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## Racing roadkill (30 Jun 2019)

Grand Prix races were once just that. Rare occasions, gruelling courses, and quite a spectacle. Cue today’s rubbish. Nah, not even the same thing.


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## cyberknight (30 Jun 2019)

Seems to me races these days are won on pit stop tactics , a bit boring.


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## Dec66 (30 Jun 2019)

Result upheld. Verstappen wins.

That's something, I suppose, but it's taken a three hour steward's inquiry. I bet two hours of that was politics, and "the optics of the sport".


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## SpokeyDokey (30 Jun 2019)

Stopped watching years ago - used to love it.


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## DRHysted (30 Jun 2019)

Simply can’t watch it anymore. If I put it on, I fall asleep. I’ve been that way since Schumacher.


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## screenman (30 Jun 2019)

I thought there was some good wheel to wheel at times.


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## Cycleops (30 Jun 2019)

meta lon said:


> You could try Moto GP
> Proper racing


Or touring car championship, that is proper exciting.


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## Smokin Joe (30 Jun 2019)

Cycleops said:


> Or touring car championship, that is proper exciting.


Banger racing for IT executives. 

The bloated lumps they drive don't even look like race cars, no matter how fast they might be.


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## Bonefish Blues (30 Jun 2019)

Dec66 said:


> Result upheld. Verstappen wins.
> 
> That's something, I suppose, but it's taken a three hour steward's inquiry. I bet two hours of that was politics, and "the optics of the sport".


... but not what the rules say should have been the outcome, so one might speculate that they might have played some small part!


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## otek59 (30 Jun 2019)

meta lon said:


> You could try Moto GP
> Proper racing


Or NASCAR


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## otek59 (30 Jun 2019)

Smokin Joe said:


> Banger racing for IT executives.
> 
> The bloated lumps they drive don't even look like race cars, no matter how fast they might be.


 I agree anyone who watched Steve Soper, John Cleland, Will Hoy etc knows what touring car racing is about


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## marinyork (30 Jun 2019)

Dec66 said:


> I think perhaps they should now have the qualifying laps on Saturday, and call that the result of the race. A bit like a time trial in cycling.
> 
> Then, the next day, just have a nice seventy-lap procession, with all the cars a set distance apart, finishing in the order they qualified the day before, drivers waving to the crowd.
> 
> Then, put the wreath on the drivers on the podium, have the ladies kiss them, play the national anthem, spray the champers, and go home.



It's called the Monaco GP.


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## NorthernDave (30 Jun 2019)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Stopped watching years ago - used to love it.



^^^ This - my summer Sundays used to be arranged around the F1 races. Up early for the fly-away races, afternoons set aside for the European races, even going off to Silverstone for the British GP. 
Not any more.

MotoGP filled the gap for a good while, but now they vanished onto pay TV I'll survive without that as well.


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## Kempstonian (30 Jun 2019)

The MotoGP was exciting enough today, as were the supporting races. Next week we will see MotoE - electric bikes - and I won't miss that!

The problem with F1 now is that there are too many street circuits, too many tracks where overtaking is difficult, too many silly rules and too many races won by the pit crew rather than the drivers.

I didn't see the Grand Prix today but I hear it was not quite as boring as they have been lately. I do wonder about the rules though, after the incident between Leclerc and Verstappen. By all accounts (and a photo I saw) Verstappen overtook on the inside and then run wide, banging wheels with Leclerc, who had to leave the track. Last race we saw Vettel in an out of control car do a similar thing to Hamilton, without actually making contact and without Hamilton being forved off the track - yet the results of the two enquiries were different. Doesn't make sense to me.

Looking at the results, the MacLarens did well again, as did Vettel and Verstappen.


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## Slick (1 Jul 2019)

otek59 said:


> Or NASCAR


I always thought that sounded pretty boring until I visited Daytona on my first visit to Florida and visited the museum and took one of their bad boys round the oval track. Can't tell you how much I fell in love with all sorts of things about the South after that experience, amazing.


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## bladderhead (1 Jul 2019)

How about lawnmower racing?


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## Goggs (1 Jul 2019)

Yesterdays race was the best in a good few years imo. What do I know?


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## Goggs (1 Jul 2019)

The people who are bemoaning the glory days might want to try buying themselves a PS 4 Pro/XBox One X and GT Sport or Forza whatever. Be that hero!


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## fossyant (1 Jul 2019)

BTTC or GT3/GT4 racing. Loads of action


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## classic33 (1 Jul 2019)

Kempstonian said:


> The MotoGP was exciting enough today, as were the supporting races. Next week we will see MotoE - electric bikes - and I won't miss that!
> 
> The problem with F1 now is that there are too many street circuits, too many tracks where overtaking is difficult, too many silly rules and too many races won by the pit crew rather than the drivers.
> 
> ...


_"Vettel went off while leading in Montreal and bounced across the grass, then was deemed to have rejoined unsafely and forced Lewis Hamilton wide as the Mercedes driver tried to pass him."_

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/144521/why-verstappen-escaped-punishment-like-vettel

Interesting to note there's been more this year though.


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## SpokeyDokey (1 Jul 2019)

Goggs said:


> The people who are bemoaning the glory days might want to try buying themselves a PS 4 Pro/XBox One X and GT Sport or Forza whatever. Be that hero!



What are these things you speak of?


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## glasgowcyclist (1 Jul 2019)

Kempstonian said:


> By all accounts (and a photo I saw) Verstappen overtook on the inside and then run wide, banging wheels with Leclerc, who had to leave the track. Last race we saw Vettel in an out of control car do a similar thing to Hamilton, without actually making contact and without Hamilton being forved off the track - yet the results of the two enquiries were different. Doesn't make sense to me.



They were completely different incidents and I think the stewards got the Vettel/Hamilton one wrong and the Leclerc/Verstappen one correct.

Verstappen had the apex and the racing line so could dictate his path however he saw fit, it was for Leclerc to either battle within track limits or back out (which he would have done had there been gravel or a wall instead of a safe run-off). It was rotten to see him lose the lead so close to the end and after dominating the race from the start but that's racing. He'll win one soon, if Ferrari strategists don't screw it up for him.


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## Goggs (1 Jul 2019)

glasgowcyclist said:


> They were completely different incidents and I think the stewards got the Vettel/Hamilton one wrong and the Leclerc/Verstappen one correct.
> 
> Verstappen had the apex and the racing line so could dictate his path however he saw fit, it was for Leclerc to either battle within track limits or back out (which he would have done had there been gravel or a wall instead of a safe run-off). It was rotten to see him lose the lead so close to the end and after dominating the race from the start but that's racing. He'll win one soon, if Ferrari strategists don't screw it up for him.



That's exacly how I see it too. Verstappen is Senna but Leclerc is Prost.


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## Bonefish Blues (1 Jul 2019)

The rule (amongst others) says it's an offence to crowd an opponent beyond track limits.

That's the rule. It's what happened, it wasn't applied.

Leave aside my own views on the rule itself (and I could frame a better one tbh), F1 has made a rod for its own back by inconsistent application.


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## Goggs (1 Jul 2019)

Nah, Leclerc knew the race was lost. There's was no way he could have maintained the lead for another two laps. He deliberately caused the incident. I don't particularly blame him. That's what's known in Sim Racing as a Rage Quit.


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## Bonefish Blues (1 Jul 2019)

Goggs said:


> Nah, Leclerc knew the race was lost. There's was no way he could have maintained the lead for another two laps. He deliberately caused the incident. I don't particularly blame him. That's what's known in Sim Racing as a Rage Quit.


And yet I suspect both of us remember some epic multi-corner battles where the guy on the outside refuses to give up, gets the inside line next corner etc.

CLC never had that option because when he turned in alongside Max, he couldn't, because not the required room (which had been left on the previous lap, one notes, unsuccessfully as it turned out)

I think it's a long way away from CLC 'causing the incident'

They didn't decide it until late because if it had gone against Max, his fans, and Red Bull's would have torn the place apart.


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## Goggs (1 Jul 2019)

You seem to have fallen for Leclercs BS. It's not for the faster driver to "leave room", rather it's the job of the slower driver to recognise that he's the slower driver. Seriously, I do more work in sims than I do in my actual job. I would have done exactly the same as Leclerc but (I hope) I'd be man enough to recognise my own cars failings.


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## Bonefish Blues (1 Jul 2019)

Goggs said:


> You seem to have fallen for Leclercs BS. It's not for the faster driver to "leave room", rather it's the job of the slower driver to recognise that he's the slower driver.


It's a race, not a time trial. Remember Senna & Mansell at Monaco?


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## DRHysted (1 Jul 2019)

Bonefish Blues said:


> It's a race, not a time trial. Remember Senna & Mansell at Monaco?



Actual racing, how times have changed.


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## otek59 (1 Jul 2019)

Goggs said:


> The people who are bemoaning the glory days might want to try buying themselves a PS 4 Pro/XBox One X and GT Sport or Forza whatever. Be that hero!


Too, right were can you “drive” a Audi S1 Quattro a P3 Alfa Romeo, 300sl merc, in about 15 minutes much more exciting than modern F1


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## classic33 (2 Jul 2019)

Senna and Mansell

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mSD-VllWlYg


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## keithmac (4 Jul 2019)

NorthernDave said:


> ^^^ This - my summer Sundays used to be arranged around the F1 races. Up early for the fly-away races, afternoons set aside for the European races, even going off to Silverstone for the British GP.
> Not any more.
> 
> MotoGP filled the gap for a good while, but now they vanished onto pay TV I'll survive without that as well.



Exactly the same for me, catch up on qualifying after work on Saturday an Sunday was planned around the race.

Watched a couple last year and none this year, it's just lost it for me, nothing to get excited about any more.

Such a shame, all down to aerodynamics. Can't get close enough to have a good old battle now.

Used to enjoy Vettel vs Webber at Red Bull, always interesting to watch!.

Then there was Jenson Button, Canada 2011, from last to a win. Probably the best driving I've ever seen.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/37402476


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## Drago (4 Jul 2019)

I had a tour of the Mercedes F1 factory last week, by Geoff Willis, who's one of the big nobs. Seems my dad is mates with a chap who knows Mr Willis.

It was astonishing. If I started now it'd be weeks before I'd finished telling you about it all. But imagine all those resources, talent and effort being brought to bear on something useful like cycling or world hunger?


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## Bonefish Blues (4 Jul 2019)

Drago said:


> I had a tour of the Mercedes F1 factory last week, by Geoff Willis, who's one of the big nobs. Seems my dad is mates with a chap who knows Mr Willis.
> 
> It was astonishing. If I started now i*t'd be weeks before I'd finished telling you about it all.* But imagine all those resources, talent and effort being brought to bear on something useful like cycling or world hunger?


I think that's a worrying phrase right there


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## Phaeton (4 Jul 2019)

Kempstonian said:


> The problem with F1 now is that there are too many street circuits, too many tracks where overtaking is difficult, too many silly rules and too many races won by the pit crew rather than the drivers.


I don't see it that there are too many street circuits (apart from Monaco which is just a joke) it's not the tracks that make it difficult it's the rules which as you say there are too many of them, but there has to be lots of rules are F1 teams will bend any rule up to the breaking line & beyond if they think they can get away with it to gain an advantage.


glasgowcyclist said:


> They were completely different incidents and I think the stewards got the Vettel/Hamilton one wrong and the Leclerc/Verstappen one correct.


My view is they got Vettel/Hamilton correct, Vettel lost control of his car, he left the track, rejoined & gained an advantage by doing so, i.e. he maintained the lead, hindsight is wonderful but what he should have done is once back under control, ease over let Hamilton through then blast past him on the straight. Regarding Verstappen/Leclerc I don't have all the data but to me there is a moment where Verstappen takes a small amount of lock off to ensure that he hits Leclerc but he may say that was just a correction because he was sliding, Leclerc made an error he didn't expect Verstappen going for the gap from so far back. 


Goggs said:


> Verstappen is Senna but Leclerc is Prost.


This is so true, a bully Vs a nice guy


Bonefish Blues said:


> The rule (amongst others) says it's an offence to crowd an opponent beyond track limits.
> That's the rule. It's what happened, it wasn't applied.


But what happens if the person being crowded deliberately puts themselves in a position where the pusher has no choice?


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## Drago (4 Jul 2019)

Nice guys get nowhere in any endeavour, particularly so in competition. Natural selection is survival of the fittest, not the nicest. Anyone that gets to the top of their field has some sociopathic tendencies.

I've always languished at or near the bottom, so I must be a very nice chap!


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## Pale Rider (4 Jul 2019)

The only time there is decent racing is when a faster car is behind a slower one.

Verstappen nearly stalling on the line and having to make up places is an example.

Thus bin practice and start the cars in reverse finishing order of the previous race.


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## Bonefish Blues (4 Jul 2019)

Phaeton said:


> But what happens if the person being crowded deliberately puts themselves in a position where the pusher has no choice?


Come on, there absolutely _was_ a choice, and V made it. He knew that unless he pushed CLC off, then he'd outdrag him again.

Compare and contrast:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Nxwn3OHkEw


Look at the track room and mutual respect and trust of two drivers having a great race, on e that's gone down in the annals...


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## Drago (4 Jul 2019)

The Frenchmen was both on the outside _and_ fractionally rearward, so the convention is that it is they who should yield. Conversely, just because LeClerc should yield and does not does not make it ok to run him off the track - even score, 1 all. They both broke the sporting code...possibly.

Of course, on a safe track with such wide paved run off areas they take the risk of not yielding and then complaining they were crowded off. You won't see LeClerc trying that on a corner with gravel traps.


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## Phaeton (4 Jul 2019)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Look at the track room and mutual respect and trust of two drivers having a great race, on e that's gone down in the annals...


But we are talking about Max Verstappen who has self belief that he is the best driver in the world, he has no respect for any other driver, only jealously when they have a better car, cheating is a way of life to him, win at all costs is the only motto. 

But as @Drago says, if the corner had had a gravel trap or a solid wall would Leclerc put himself there in the first place? Charles left to door open, Max filled the gap, Charles should have given up the corner, cut back inside & out dragged him down the straight again, but hindsight is wonderful.


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## Drago (4 Jul 2019)

Bottom line is no one died. They were racing, and LeClerc failed to prevent a faster driver - on that day - from overtaking.


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## Bonefish Blues (4 Jul 2019)

CLC will hold his line next time, I suggest. "Weakness" against Max is a bad place to be.

He will hurt someone, I worry.


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## Beebo (4 Jul 2019)

Pale Rider said:


> The only time there is decent racing is when a faster car is behind a slower one.
> 
> Verstappen nearly stalling on the line and having to make up places is a an example.
> 
> Thus bin practice and start the cars in reverse finishing order of the previous race.


It might make for a great race but wouldn’t be very fair, you would have to make overtaking much easier, otherwise a slow car could hold everyone up in a long train.


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## Phaeton (4 Jul 2019)

Bonefish Blues said:


> He will hurt someone, I worry.


Or himself, some of his moves are dangerous, playing chicken with drivers along the Kemmel Straight into Les Combes was just ridiculous, although I think words have been had, he has calmed down slightly.


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## classic33 (4 Jul 2019)

21st October 1990.


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## Drago (4 Jul 2019)

Bonefish Blues said:


> CLC will hold his line next time, I suggest. "Weakness" against Max is a bad place to be.



LeClerc was on the outside and slightly behind, and the sporting code tells a driver they must yield in that scenario. If he'd held his line and caused a collision he'd be facing sanctions without any doubt, not to mention throwing away any points he might have been in line for.

I actually don't think LeClerc is all that. He's fast, but arguably he's in the fastest car, and he isn't clocking up a record of winning tight fights for position. I'd love to be proven wrong, but I reckon he's shaping up to be a other Damon Hill - quick, but not actually much of a racer.


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## Bonefish Blues (4 Jul 2019)

Phaeton said:


> Or himself, some of his moves are dangerous, playing chicken with drivers along the Kemmel Straight into Les Combes was just ridiculous, although I think words have been had, he has calmed down slightly.


I read an interesting post from someone whose opinions I respect who reckoned that the 'calming down' was actually more to do with Danny Ric leaving and taking away that pressure from someone pretty much as quick. It took him one lap only to decide to shunt CLC.

@Drago I see it in diametrically the opposite way to you.


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## Phaeton (4 Jul 2019)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Danny Ric leaving


I loved Horner's comments that they didn't know why Ricciardo had decided to leave, maybe it was as he had openly said stated they were building a team around Max


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## Goggs (4 Jul 2019)

Verstappen may not be the best driver on the grid right now but I think he's the fastest. Put him in a Mercedes and you've got the next world champion.


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## Kempstonian (4 Jul 2019)

Verstappen to replace Bottas? What a prospect!


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## Phaeton (4 Jul 2019)

Kempstonian said:


> Verstappen to replace Bottas? What a prospect!


I'm not a gambling man, but I'd put money on that never happening


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## Kempstonian (4 Jul 2019)

Phaeton said:


> I'm not a gambling man, but I'd put money on that never happening


So would I but we wouldn't get very good odds on it.


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## Cletus Van Damme (4 Jul 2019)

otek59 said:


> I agree anyone who watched Steve Soper, John Cleland, Will Hoy etc knows what touring car racing is about



I watched Cleland in the Cavalier. I watched more of David Leslie & his teammate in the Primera P11's, that dominated it slightly later. I'm not into F1 at all. I'm going to Silverstone on the Saturday for qualifying as it is free with work. Probably be better than I'm expecting..


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## classic33 (4 Jul 2019)

Kempstonian said:


> So would I but we wouldn't get very good odds on it.


Try and find out.


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## Goggs (5 Jul 2019)

Kempstonian said:


> Verstappen to replace Bottas? What a prospect!



It wasn't Bottas I had in mind.


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## Bonefish Blues (5 Jul 2019)

Goggs said:


> It wasn't Bottas I had in mind.


Not the best cultural match, perhaps? CLC better, perhaps?


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## Goggs (5 Jul 2019)

The only point I was making is that given the best car he's the best driver. To be fair, that's probably true for most of the grid.


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## glasgowcyclist (6 Jul 2019)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Come on, there absolutely _was_ a choice, and V made it. He knew that unless he pushed CLC off, then he'd outdrag him again.
> 
> Compare and contrast:
> 
> ...




Thanks for the clip, that was proper racing. I doubt we'll ever see that level again.


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## Kempstonian (8 Jul 2019)

Goggs said:


> It wasn't Bottas I had in mind.


I can't see Mercedes dumping Hamilton in favour of Verstappen. Ever. And I can't see Hammy wanting the competition Verstappen would provide. It would be worse than Rosberg.


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## Goggs (9 Jul 2019)

I think Hamilton has at best one more season in him. After that it's the bright lights of panto for him.


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## Bonefish Blues (9 Jul 2019)

Goggs said:


> I think Hamilton has at best one more season in him. After that it's the bright lights of panto for him.


He's after Schumi's 7. It may not take him any longer than that.


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## glasgowcyclist (9 Jul 2019)

Bonefish Blues said:


> He's after Schumi's 7. It may not take him any longer than that.



But he'll want to beat it, surely?


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## Phaeton (9 Jul 2019)

Whilstever Mercedes have a competitive car I can't see him leaving, even if the others get their acts together & start to challenge him.


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## Bonefish Blues (9 Jul 2019)

glasgowcyclist said:


> But he'll want to beat it, surely?


Likely so


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## Goggs (12 Jul 2019)

He's got Celebrity Love Jungle written all over him.


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## Reynard (13 Jul 2019)

Pale Rider said:


> The only time there is decent racing is when a faster car is behind a slower one.
> 
> Verstappen nearly stalling on the line and having to make up places is an example.
> 
> Thus bin practice and start the cars in reverse finishing order of the previous race.



Just like in short oval racing...  Pick your formula; superstox, national hot rods, sprint midgets...

Drivers get graded according to ability / results. Least good (white roof) start up front, then yellow, blue and red grade drivers. World champ in the category has a gold roof and starts at the very back.


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## Racing roadkill (14 Jul 2019)

Goggs said:


> The only point I was making is that given the best car he's the best driver. To be fair, that's probably true for most of the grid.


And therein lies the problem with GP racing at present. There are no ‘standout’ drivers, who can outdrive a sub par car, at present ( Vettel excepted, and Kimi seemingly doesn’t care that much anymore) Generally a driver of that calibre, ( Senna, Schumacher, Alonso, Hakkinen, Raikkonen, Vettel. ) all of whom demonstrably drove gash cars, way past what the experienced engineers at their respective teams, thought possible, doesn't appear very often. I believe Leclerc is of that ilk, but he’s not been put in the worst car, so it’s harder to tell.


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## Bonefish Blues (14 Jul 2019)

Vettel on that list? Am surprised.


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## Reynard (14 Jul 2019)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Vettel on that list? Am surprised.



I'll agree with you there. I don't see Seb as that kind of a driver - he's untouchable in a great car, but in anything else, he struggles.

I would, however put Prost on the list. No, he wasn't as spectacular as some, but he didn't earn his moniker of "The Professor" for nothing. I'd also put Derek Warwick on that list too.


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## Racing roadkill (14 Jul 2019)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Vettel on that list? Am surprised.


Vettel poled a Torro Rosso and drove a flag to flag, at Monza, in the rain. That was his ‘proven moment’. Admittedly TR were using a tweaked Ferrari engine that weekend, but the chassis was still no where near that good.


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## Racing roadkill (14 Jul 2019)

Reynard said:


> I'll agree with you there. I don't see Seb as that kind of a driver - he's untouchable in a great car, but in anything else, he struggles.


Absolutely not true ( Monza 2008) It’s very true of Hamilton ( when he was driving ‘Paddy’s pup’, he failed to outdrive it )


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## Racing roadkill (14 Jul 2019)

Prost was a superb driver, but he really didn’t ever get bad cars. He also mastered the dummy spit. It cost him his place at Ferrari. When they did give him a ( relatively) poor car, he sulked and moaned ( publicly) and ended up being very publicly booted out of the team.


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## Supersuperleeds (14 Jul 2019)

Vettel proving again how brilliant a driver he is


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## Racing roadkill (14 Jul 2019)

Supersuperleeds said:


> Vettel proving again how brilliant a driver he is


 That was utter buffoonery. However, that’s what ( as anyone who actually has a clue about this ) would know, is what makes the difference between a multiple Grand Prix world champion, and an armchair wazcock, who’s never raced anything. They will always go for an opportunity, no matter how slim the chance of pulling it off. Sometimes you get it wrong. Take the penalty, move on.


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## Goggs (14 Jul 2019)

Racing roadkill said:


> That was utter buffoonery. However, that’s what ( as anyone who actually has a clue about this ) would know, is what makes the difference between a multiple Grand Prix world champion, and an armchair wazcock, who’s never raced anything. They will always go for an opportunity, no matter how slim the chance of pulling it off. Sometimes you get it wrong. Take the penalty, move on.



Except there was no opportunity there. In fact, if you look at the real speed replay Vettel went on the brakes early and then came off them. He went for the punt.


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## Bonefish Blues (14 Jul 2019)

Racing roadkill said:


> Vettel poled a Torro Rosso and drove a flag to flag, at Monza, in the rain. That was his ‘proven moment’. Admittedly TR were using a tweaked Ferrari engine that weekend, but the chassis was still no where near that good.


He's not done it since, and doesn't seem to be able to drive around the Ferrari's issues. I think that you must take him off ze list!


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## Goggs (14 Jul 2019)

That was another great race today. Admittedly, not at the front but further back the driving was superb. I thought both Leclerc and Verstappen done themselves proud today. Vettel was disgraceful and it's becoming more and more obvious that Leclerc has him rattled. I feel sorry for Bottas though as it was the Safety Car which cost him the race.


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## Racing roadkill (14 Jul 2019)

Goggs said:


> Except there was no opportunity there. In fact, if you look at the real speed replay Vettel went on the brakes early and then came off them. He went for the punt.


 Again, anyone who’s driven winged cars would know that the aero completely evaporates in the dirty air, so the brakes are all you’ve got. The Red bull jinked right, and effectively stole all the drag. It was 70:30 at best. Vettel surely knew the merde was going to hit the fan if the red bull did what it did, but he was chancing his arm that it didn’t. The gamble didn’t pay off, he admitted it post race, fair play to him.


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## Racing roadkill (14 Jul 2019)

Goggs said:


> That was another great race today. Admittedly, not at the front but further back the driving was superb. I thought both Leclerc and Verstappen done themselves proud today. Vettel was disgraceful and it's becoming more and more obvious that Leclerc has him rattled. I feel sorry for Bottas though as it was the Safety Car which cost him the race.



Other than the incidents, that was about as mind numbingly boring as it gets. GP racing is utter tosh at the moment. I only suffered it because it was on at the establishment I find myself in at the moment. I need mind bleach now.


----------



## Racing roadkill (14 Jul 2019)

Bonefish Blues said:


> He's not done it since, and doesn't seem to be able to drive around the Ferrari's issues. I think that you must take him off ze list!



You can only work with the tools provided, and ( crucially) within what the team instruct you to do. If you piss Ferrari off, you’re going to get booted quick smart. You have to fly below the radar, and keep schtum if you want to keep your ( lucrative ) drive. He’s still got the balls, he’s not stupid though.


----------



## Goggs (14 Jul 2019)

If you're trying to tell me that F1 isn't the pinnacle of motorsport then you're preaching to the converted. Still, for modern F1 that was an exciting race. As was Austria.


----------



## Racing roadkill (14 Jul 2019)

Goggs said:


> If you're trying to tell me that F1 isn't the pinnacle of motorsport then you're preaching to the converted. Still, for modern F1 that was an exciting race. As was Austria.


 Too staged though. Too much horse poo, not enough horse.


----------



## Phaeton (14 Jul 2019)

Racing roadkill said:


> Too staged though. Too much horse poo, not enough horse.


Yet you still watched it & appear to be an expert in the sport


----------



## Reynard (14 Jul 2019)

Racing roadkill said:


> Absolutely not true ( Monza 2008) It’s very true of Hamilton ( when he was driving ‘Paddy’s pup’, he failed to outdrive it )



Every driver can have a "one hit wonder" moment... Vittorio Brambilla, Pastor Maldonado and Olivier Panis spring to mind. That's motor racing for you. Seb's Monza race in the Torro Rosso fits into that category IMHO.

In that race IIRC, Adrian Sutil led for a good while in the Spyker.


----------



## Reynard (14 Jul 2019)

Racing roadkill said:


> You can only work with the tools provided, and ( crucially) within what the team instruct you to do. If you piss Ferrari off, you’re going to get booted quick smart. You have to fly below the radar, and keep schtum if you want to keep your ( lucrative ) drive. He’s still got the balls, he’s not stupid though.



That doesn't take into account the ever growing litany of mistakes that Seb's made over the years. Some of them have been real howlers.

Seb's achilles heel is his mental frailty - the very best have greater mental fortitude.


----------



## Reynard (14 Jul 2019)

Racing roadkill said:


> Prost was a superb driver, but he really didn’t ever get bad cars. He also mastered the dummy spit. It cost him his place at Ferrari. When they did give him a ( relatively) poor car, he sulked and moaned ( publicly) and ended up being very publicly booted out of the team.



His first year at Mclaren he had a crap car (1980), then he moved to Renault, which wasn't on the level of Brabham or even the normally aspirated Williams. He really only got a decent car during his second stint at McLaren, when they ran the TAG-Porsche turbo, and then later, the Honda.

As for Ferrari he still managed to get the better of Mansell in 1990 by some margin.

The problem with Ferrari is that they don't take criticism on the chin terribly well - they never have.


----------



## Beebo (18 Jul 2019)

This video just popped up on my YouTube feed. 

Lewis Hamilton taking Frank Williams for a lap of Silverstone. He has no body strength so it must have been painful but he still smiles the whole way around. 


View: https://youtu.be/kSoQtwbpcGU


----------



## Phaeton (18 Jul 2019)

Brilliant, Sir Frank looked upset when they told Lewis to only do 1 lap,


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## Goggs (19 Jul 2019)

Rubbish car to do it in though.


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## Beebo (19 Jul 2019)

Goggs said:


> Rubbish car to do it in though.


It’s a Mercedes advertising ploy and I doubt Frank would have been able to take much more g force in a more powerful car.
He is 77 and the worlds longest surviving tetraplegic so fairly fragile.
They also had the hood down at the start of the recording which makes me think they needed a car with easy access to lift him in and out.


----------



## Jenkins (21 Jul 2019)

Slightly off topic but with a cycling link, you may have been aware of the continuing saga with Haas sponsor Rich Energy and their copying of the Whyte bikes logo. Rich Energy also had a small sponsorship deal on one of the Bentleys in British GT which has been terminated and replaced by...


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## Bonefish Blues (21 Jul 2019)

I knew someone would get on the bandwagon with Whyte!


----------



## Reynard (24 Jul 2019)

Listening to this...

https://formularapida.net/podcast-warwick-on-career-deaths-of-rivals-brother-brdc-role-more/

A combination of  and  and  and  and 

One seriously top, top guy.

Edited to say: what a lovely voice. I could listen to Derek read the phone book and I'd still be enthralled


----------



## Goggs (28 Jul 2019)

Another dull race today.


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## classic33 (28 Jul 2019)

Goggs said:


> Another dull race today.


The last lap has been run, but the race isn't over.


----------



## Reynard (28 Jul 2019)

classic33 said:


> The last lap has been run, but the race isn't over.



The stewards are still pretty busy... Don't take the result as a given.


----------



## classic33 (28 Jul 2019)

25 years ago, Jos Verstappen


----------



## Reynard (28 Jul 2019)

I remember that...

Or rather, I could hardly fail to forget it.

It's one of those F1 moments that sticks in the memory, right alongside Derek Warwick skating through the Parabolica on his roll bar, Senna stuffing his McLaren into the wall at the exit to the Portier while leading the '88 Monaco Grand Prix by a minute, Maurizio Gugelmin sailing his March over the heads of the other drivers at the start of the '89 French GP...


----------



## classic33 (28 Jul 2019)

Alonso nearly decapitating Coulthard in Japan?


----------



## Reynard (28 Jul 2019)

classic33 said:


> Alonso nearly decapitating Coulthard in Japan?



Or Schumacher driving into the back of DC at Spa in '98...


----------



## classic33 (28 Jul 2019)

Reynard said:


> Or Schumacher driving into the back of DC at Spa in '98...


The "fight" afterwards in the McLaren pits.


----------



## Reynard (29 Jul 2019)

classic33 said:


> The "fight" afterwards in the McLaren pits.



Ah, that was nothing...

You should listen to that podcast I linked: Derek Warwick had Schuey bent backwards over a table and was about to rearrange his facial features, and Jean-Louis Schlesser egging him on in the background... Was stopped from doing so by Jochen Mass.

The way Derek tells it, I'd have paid good money to see that...


----------



## Phaeton (29 Jul 2019)

Martin Brundle barrel rolling in the Australian GP on corner 3? 

The best bit about Derek Warwick was after the crash running up the pit lane to jump into the spare car.


----------



## Smokin Joe (29 Jul 2019)

classic33 said:


> 25 years ago, Jos Verstappen
> View attachment 477435


And Murray Walker's calm voice, "Let's not panic..."


----------



## classic33 (29 Jul 2019)

Smokin Joe said:


> And Murray Walker's calm voice, "Let's not panic..."


That's one person they shouldn't have let go.


----------



## Reynard (29 Jul 2019)

Phaeton said:


> Martin Brundle barrel rolling in the Australian GP on corner 3?



Melbourne '96, when driving for Jordan, IIRC...



> The best bit about Derek Warwick was after the crash running up the pit lane to jump into the spare car.



And yelling "set 11, set 11" to the mechanics, wanting his next best set of tyres on the spare car. 

Actually, Monza was his "crackpot" moment... His bravest moments were Zolder '82, Jerez '90 and then the first time he got back into a race car (a test session at the Osterreichring) after Oulton '91.


----------



## matticus (3 Aug 2020)

So: Lewis wins at Silverstone with a flat tyre. Quite an exciting last 3 laps.

My favourite moment was the exchange between Mad Max and the pit-lane on the last lap. He's in 2nd place by about 20seconds, and has (presumably) just found out that Hamilton is going v e r y s l o w l y ...

Max: Can we win the race??
Pit: We can if you get on with it.


----------



## vickster (3 Aug 2020)

Up to date thread https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/motorsports-thread.253755/


----------



## matticus (3 Aug 2020)

vickster said:


> Up to date thread https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/motorsports-thread.253755/


Thanks! (I searched on "Formula")


----------



## gbb (3 Aug 2020)

It's always bugged me how (and I know how really) big names get the news and someone else gets relegated to barely even a mention.
Roland Ratzenberger, killed while qualifying for the 94 San Marino GP, I thought terribly sad even though he was one of the lower ranked drivers. The 'show' went on...and of course Senna was killed I the race itself and no-one has ever stopped talking about it. Such is the cache of fame and success I suppose. It always seems unfair...but that's reality. Funny how that always stuck in my mind.
I've almost given up on F1, it's a mere shadow of its former self and I've been a lifelong addict.

Highlight I will remember forever....Mansell trying lap after lap to overtake Senna in the final stages of the Monaco GP.


----------



## Phaeton (3 Aug 2020)

gbb said:


> Highlight I will remember forever....Mansell trying lap after lap to overtake Senna in the final stages of the Monaco GP.


Different people see things differently, I'm not a gambling man but I would have put my house on Senna not letting Mansell past, yes it was entertaining but that was all it was, it was never going to happen, not without mechanical & even then chances are that Senna would have taken Mansell out to make sure it was Red flagged & declared the winner. To some he was the greatest driver ever, to me he was one of the biggest cheats.


----------



## Reynard (3 Aug 2020)

I've no time for Senna either. Yes, he was brilliant behind the wheel, but utterly, utterly ruthless, and didn't care upon whom he stepped in order to get exactly what he wanted. He could have been equally great, if not more so if he played everything above board.

I'm another one who always remembers Roland Ratzenberger. He worked so hard to get where he was, only for everything to implode like that. Likewise, it's why I still remember Paul Warwick. Last year, all the brouhaha about Michael Schumacher turning 50, yet Paul, who is only a few days younger, got no mention at all. It sticks in my craw, it really does.

Having said that, a little factoid - Humphrey Corbett was Roland's race engineer at Simtek in 1994. Humph was also Paul's race engineer at Madgwick in 1991. To have gone through that same heartache twice...


----------



## Grant Fondo (3 Aug 2020)

I watched that 1977 Tom Pryce Kyalami accident, good grief! Thank god things have improved dramatically.


----------



## IanSmithCSE (3 Aug 2020)

Afternoon,



gbb said:


> ......... I've almost given up on F1, it's a mere shadow of its former self and I've been a lifelong addict.



F1 for me has been spoilt by no longer being the obscure band that I loved when I was 13 (Pat Benatar) and is now mainstream and all the imagined mystery has been revealed and it has become pretty unpleasant.

Way back I was involved in writing software to convert electric typewriters into computer printers when that was new, crossover between the 1970s and 1980s and the guy running the project killed himself in his private plane, single engine failed on take off. 

He wasn't a friend just a boss, but I was just out of school and it taught me that people die.

When Channel 4 started using Mr. Monger that was a cynical step too far and I stopped watching their coverage.

Susie Wolff had at least driven an F1 car in free practice and Eddie Jordan owned his own team. EJ also made the most outrageous comments which were immense fun.


----------



## IanSmithCSE (3 Aug 2020)

Evening,



Reynard said:


> I've no time for Senna either.



Senna gave a lot back, it was never well publicised, but the Senna Foundation is well worth looking up.

Brazilian children's opportunities were supported by Senna.

He seems to have done a lot more than Hamilton's pronouncement on whatever is the flavour of the month.


----------



## Reynard (3 Aug 2020)

Grant Fondo said:


> I watched that 1977 Tom Pryce Kyalami accident, good grief! Thank god things have improved dramatically.



And rightly so.

The real step change in motor racing safety came after Senna's crash at Imola in '94. It shouldn't have taken that long, IMHO, or for that particular crash to have been the catalyst for real change.

Prior to then, things were pretty haphazard, and a lot of changes were done in a very half-arsed way. If there had been less complacency and fewer assumptions about things being perfectly fine because they had been fine for years, it would have prevented a lot of needless deaths.

It pains me to say it, but if only Ratzenberger had been killed that weekend at Imola, things would probably simply have continued on pretty well much as they were.


----------



## Reynard (3 Aug 2020)

IanSmithCSE said:


> Evening,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I am very well aware of the foundation and what it does. 

Besides, anyone with a lot of money can set up a charity to help the disadvantaged. Doing that does not balance out the unpleasant aspects of someone's personality.

I stand by my views.


----------



## Phaeton (3 Aug 2020)

IanSmithCSE said:


> Senna gave a lot back, it was never well publicised, but the Senna Foundation is well worth looking up.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instituto_Ayrton_Senna

I was aware of the charity however wasn't aware it wasn't him who actually set it up, but his family after his death, now that is not to say it wouldn't have still happened had there not been a crash but


----------



## Drago (3 Aug 2020)

Ferrari must be kicking themselves. All that money spent buying Sainz 's contract for next year and Norris, who they could probably have had a lot cheaper, is consistently outperforming him by a decent margin.


----------



## Smokin Joe (3 Aug 2020)

Reynard said:


> And rightly so.
> 
> The real step change in motor racing safety came after Senna's crash at Imola in '94. It shouldn't have taken that long, IMHO, or for that particular crash to have been the catalyst for real change.
> 
> ...


Jackie Stewart, who did an awful lot to make racing safer was called a coward by some motor racing journalists and a few people in the sport (Not other drivers) who were happy to see drivers burning to death in the interests of "Entertainment".

I stopped reading Motorcycle Sport and Leisure after one of their writers referred to Barry Sheene as "Not a real man" because he wouldn't ride the Isle of Man TT. This was a guy who had broken more bones than most people realise they've got during his career and still came back for more.


----------



## Slick (3 Aug 2020)

Smokin Joe said:


> Jackie Stewart, who did an awful lot to make racing safer was called a coward by some motor racing journalists and a few people in the sport (Not other drivers) who were happy to see drivers burning to death in the interests of "Entertainment".
> 
> I stopped reading Motorcycle Sport and Leisure after one of their writers referred to Barry Sheene as "Not a real man" because he wouldn't ride the Isle of Man TT. This was a guy who had broken more bones than most people realise they've got during his career and still came back for more.


Jackie Stewart was the driving force for change and is an old school gent of pure class. 👍


----------



## Reynard (3 Aug 2020)

Drago said:


> Ferrari must be kicking themselves. All that money spent buying Sainz 's contract for next year and Norris, who they could probably have had a lot cheaper, is consistently outperforming him by a decent margin.



OTOH am glad they didn't snaffle Lando. At McLaren he's got the time to learn and grow without being in that goldfish bowl that driving for Ferrari brings. (And the pressure, and the politics and all the other shitniz...)

Lole Jr can kiss goodbye to any hope of a decent career now. Although his wallet won't be regretting that one little bit.


----------



## Reynard (3 Aug 2020)

Slick said:


> Jackie Stewart was the driving force for change and is an old school gent of pure class. 👍



Oh, he's a truly lovely chap. But one with a propensity for nicking pens.


----------



## Reynard (3 Aug 2020)

Smokin Joe said:


> Jackie Stewart, who did an awful lot to make racing safer was called a coward by some motor racing journalists and a few people in the sport (Not other drivers) who were happy to see drivers burning to death in the interests of "Entertainment".



There was a similar reaction to Derek Warwick when he started looking at circuit safety following Paul's death. It got to the point where the circuits wouldn't actually let him through the gate...

But the stuff that he and his team found was enough to curdle anyone's blood - made the armco fiasco at Montjuic Park seem like a minor trifle. But he got his way in the end, especially with the Knickerbrook being changed completely. It's now a chicane with a run-off area. Before, it was a flat right hand kink, no run-off and an earth bank directly behind the barriers.


----------



## dave r (12 Dec 2020)

Interesting analysis


----------



## matticus (12 Dec 2020)

Astonishing!
(and I don't just mean the spelling  )

Top TIp: don't watch this within the CC window - hit Fullscreen. And even then some of the captions are hidden behind the title.


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## gbb (12 Dec 2020)

Reynard said:


> And rightly so.
> 
> The real step change in motor racing safety came after Senna's crash at Imola in '94. It shouldn't have taken that long, IMHO, or for that particular crash to have been the catalyst for real change.
> 
> ...


I always felt that Ratzenbergers death passed almost unnoticed, almost like a side event. It made me angry at the time(not literally but you know what I mean), it still does.


----------



## Reynard (12 Dec 2020)

gbb said:


> I always felt that Ratzenbergers death passed almost unnoticed, almost like a side event. It made me angry at the time(not literally but you know what I mean), it still does.



Exactly. This is precisely what bugs me. That some racing drivers, in death, are more equal than others...

A little factlet. Roland Ratzenberger's race engineer at Simtek was a chap called Humphrey Corbett. Who was also Paul Warwick's engineer at Madgwick.

To have gone through the same heartache twice, of seeing the driver he was working with killed, in the space of less than three years, must have been a nightmare.


----------



## gbb (12 Dec 2020)

I have to admit, my love for F1 has waned, it holds non of its former excitement and glory.
Perhaps it's me, I find the same with a few TV things across a range, 
Now Indianapolis style racing, now that's exciting (or was when it was viewable free over here)

I still watch F1 but I cant seem to get behind any particular driver anymore.


----------



## gbb (12 Dec 2020)

Cycleops said:


> Or touring car championship, that is proper exciting.


Or top flight sidecar racing .


----------



## Cycleops (12 Dec 2020)

gbb said:


> Or top flight sidecar racing .


I used to go and watch grass track which included sidecars. Full of spills and thrills.


----------



## Phaeton (12 Dec 2020)

dave r said:


> Interesting analysis


Yes, I wonder if they will change the design in the future, had the bit they put the camera in sheared off the escape would have been far easier.


----------



## dave r (12 Dec 2020)

Phaeton said:


> Yes, I wonder if they will change the design in the future, had the bit they put the camera in sheared off the escape would have been far easier.



Yes, I was surprised it didn't just shear off.


----------



## NorthernDave (13 Dec 2020)

I've enjoyed the truncated F1 season this year, although being a fan of LH44 probably helps.

That said, sitting through the race today reminds me why Yas Marina is one of my least favourite tracks - it has everything that's wrong with the new breed of circuits.


----------



## Reynard (13 Dec 2020)

NorthernDave said:


> I've enjoyed the truncated F1 season this year, although being a fan of LH44 probably helps.
> 
> That said, sitting through the race today reminds me why Yas Marina is one of my least favourite tracks - it has everything that's wrong with the new breed of circuits.



I was struggling to stay awake while listening to the radio commentary. All credit to Jack Nicholls, Jolyon Palmer and Jennie Gow for sticking at it during such a snorefest. Didn't bother watching the highlights.

Yas Marina has never produced a good race. But, as the old saying in motor racing goes, money talks and bulls**t walks...


----------



## NorthernDave (14 Dec 2020)

I'm also looking forward to next season - be interesting to see what goes on between now and then, especially how the team dynamic works at Racing Point / Aston Martin with Seb joining them as the #2 driver...


----------



## Phaeton (14 Dec 2020)

NorthernDave said:


> I'm also looking forward to next season - be interesting to see what goes on between now and then, especially how the team dynamic works at Racing Point / Aston Martin with Seb joining them as the #2 driver...


Me too, more so at McLaren with Daniel Ricciardo with a Mercedes engine, this could be his best chance if he can get the car to drive the way he wants, hopefully very very quickly, Vettel in a competitive car, to show the doubters, although I feel that Williams & Haas will be chasing the wooden spoon again between them, I don't see Renault suddenly jumping up the grid, they need more power & now with only 2 cars that's going to prove difficult.


----------



## icowden (14 Dec 2020)

It's interesting that Mercedes think there is a fair amount of room for development for next year, and Red Bull don't.
I'm with the previous posters though on the yawn fest that is Yas Marina.


----------



## Reynard (14 Dec 2020)

I'm really looking forward to Daniel Ricciardo joining Lando at McLaren for noext season. If the team can build on what they've done this year, hopefully we'll see a bit of a step up.

I don't think they'll be on the Merc / Red Bull level *yet* but if they can nip at their ankles for a podium, that would be good.

Red Bull haven't had the reliability this year that they normally so, Max is still making too many silly mistakes and Albon, sadly, hasn't really been at the races.


----------



## glasgowcyclist (14 Dec 2020)

I’m looking forward to not having to listen to the awful Ben Edwards’ commentary.


----------



## cosmicbike (14 Dec 2020)

Roll on March 21st. On my wish list for next season, a closer pack at the front, with maybe 3 genuine contenders for the top spot. I'd love to see Williams move up a bit, and await to see Vettel outperform the prancing horses in an Aston. And please, somebody other than LH winning...


----------



## Phaeton (14 Dec 2020)

Reynard said:


> I'm really looking forward to Daniel Ricciardo joining Lando at McLaren for noext season. If the team can build on what they've done this year, hopefully we'll see a bit of a step up.


I have high hopes for him, RB decided to put all their eggs in one basket unfortunately for Daniel it wasn't his, but he is every inch the driver Max is.


Reynard said:


> I don't think they'll be on the Merc / Red Bull level *yet* but if they can nip at their ankles for a podium, that would be good.


I'm hopeful, they outran the Pick Mercs on a few occasions this year with a less powerful engine, hopefully the integration goes well, they can keep their slippery shape or even better it as I believe the Merc engine is a lower profile. If they can find a second they'll be right in it, although a second is a HUGE step.


Reynard said:


> Red Bull haven't had the reliability this year that they normally so, Max is still making too many silly mistakes and Albon, sadly, hasn't really been at the races.


Desperation for one & not quite enough talent OR too much pressure for the other.


----------



## icowden (15 Dec 2020)

cosmicbike said:


> Roll on March 21st. On my wish list for next season, a closer pack at the front, with maybe 3 genuine contenders for the top spot. I'd love to see Williams move up a bit, and await to see Vettel outperform the prancing horses in an Aston. And please, somebody other than LH winning...



I agree. It would be nice to see Lewis actually having to fight a bit more for his wins. It must be utterly soul destroying driving a Williams and knowing you have no hope of finishing in the points. One of the nice things about Russell's race was seeing lots of cars in contention for the podium and some genuine excitement about who might win. Lets just hope RB aren't too complacent about the car being "the same".


----------



## Phaeton (16 Dec 2020)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/55330285 I have a feeling now that Albon will remain in the senior team, but if he doesn't show progress & get closer to Verstappen AND Tsunoda is able to keep up with or beat Gasly then there will be a RB Switcheroo after 5 races.


----------



## Phaeton (18 Dec 2020)

BBC News - Sergio Perez: Red Bull sign Mexican to race alongside Max Verstappen for 2021
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/55367539 Perez in, Albon out


----------



## cosmicbike (8 Feb 2021)

Just the 1 year contract for Hamilton with MB then.


----------



## Phaeton (8 Feb 2021)

cosmicbike said:


> Just the 1 year contract for Hamilton with MB then.


No surprise there


----------



## dave r (26 Apr 2021)

Looks like they're trying to shake things up a bit, three races this season will include a sprint race.

https://www.crash.net/f1/news/97485...ualifying-race-proposal-gets-green-light-2021


----------



## Grant Fondo (30 Jul 2021)

Tsunodas still making a right old hash of things .....


----------



## icowden (6 Aug 2021)

What did people think of the sprint race? I thought it was a bit of a non-event personally.
Now whether it will be better with the 2022 cars... there's a question....


----------



## Bonefish Blues (6 Aug 2021)

I was a bit nonplussed tbh, but that's often the case


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (6 Aug 2021)

Wasn't too bad - I suspect that is about as good as it will get. Too much at risk in terms of damage and engine wear for the main race.

I suspect there will be some boring ones at times - we shall see


----------



## FishFright (6 Aug 2021)

icowden said:


> What did people think of the sprint race? I thought it was a bit of a non-event personally.
> Now whether it will be better with the 2022 cars... there's a question....



Pretty pointless tbh but if it makes more money it'll stay , if it loses money it'll stay until there is a change of personnel near the top .

But hey change is proof that someone is working whether the outcome is good or bad.


----------



## Reynard (6 Aug 2021)

I quite enjoyed it, but it was too long. After the first 10 laps or so, things just settled down. Needs to be shorter to put the pressure on the drivers.


----------



## dave r (8 Feb 2022)

Lol!

https://racingnews365.com/horner-secures-mercedes-factory-tour-in-charity-auction


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (8 Feb 2022)

dave r said:


> Lol!
> 
> https://racingnews365.com/horner-secures-mercedes-factory-tour-in-charity-auction


I reckon there might b a few changes made before his 'tour' takes place

could be quite funny - if he actually goes!


----------



## figbat (8 Feb 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> I reckon there might b a few changes made before his 'tour' takes place
> 
> could be quite funny - if he actually goes!


I'd be surprised if the tour shows anything more than you couldn't pick up online or at a race anyway. A few years ago I went around the Williams F1 factory and whilst for an enthusiast it is very interesting, they don't give anything away.


----------



## Beebo (8 Feb 2022)

A nice move by Horner, as it goes to charity.
They have the neighbouring pit at every race. 
they could learn far more just by looking in the pit door.


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (8 Feb 2022)

Nice donation to charity and a good opportunity for some jokes - which might repair some of the bad blood from last year



as said before - they will get more from a glance through the pit door or a good look at the cameras on the cars when following or being followed by the other team


----------



## FishFright (8 Feb 2022)

Toto Wolf's reaction


----------



## CXRAndy (8 Feb 2022)

Does anyone really care anymore after the contrived result of last season. 

It was never high on my interests, but I wont be watching it again.


----------



## icowden (8 Feb 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Does anyone really care anymore after the contrived result of last season.


There is that. I suppose it depends on the outcome of the current inquest for me, and whether Hamilton races again. Hopefully the new cars will mix things up a bit.


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (8 Feb 2022)

I'll be watching - I think the last race ending was abysmal and totally unacceptable

but at the end of the day Max had to be in it to win it and he was right up there
if he had raced differently or the team had reacted differently or the car had been different or he had got Covid or....

but the last race was as it was and he won fair and square on the basis of the race as it was
whether or not an official made a wrong decision doens't detract from Max's driving, talent, car and all the rest

He ended up with more point - that's all that matters

It is similar to a football match where Liverpool and Man U are level with 2 minutes to go and Man U score but the ref disallows it.
On the restart ManU are still stunned and Liverpool go and score as a result
After the match replays show the goal was OK - but Liverpool still won (as is right!)
and without the disallowed goal Liverpool wouldn;t have scored

but Liverpool still go down as the winner ( as they should)

Wasn't Max's fault and he took a chance when it was handed to him


So I'll be watching - I;d watch Barcelona practice is I could - but I'll have to wait I suppose


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## cosmicbike (8 Feb 2022)

I look forwards to Thursday when we see the first of the 2022 cars unveiled, and then the season starting again. Regardless of your view on the end of last season, it was an exciting race. I for one was pleased to see someone else lift the title, and I'm hopeful that the new rules will mix things up a bit. Be interesting to see who has made the most of the new regulations and if we see a Brawn or 2014 Mercedes repeat..


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## Smokin Joe (8 Feb 2022)

It is the inconsistency that makes it a complete farce. The Belgian GP, the whole race (Two feckin' laps) run behind the safety car with no overtaking allowed, then at the last race we "Couldn't allow the race to finish behind the car" so it was pulled out. 

I can't think of another sport that where that sort of thing would be allowed to happen.


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## CXRAndy (9 Feb 2022)

Smokin Joe said:


> It is the inconsistency that makes it a complete farce. The Belgian GP, the whole race (Two feckin' laps) run behind the safety car with no overtaking allowed, then at the last race we "Couldn't allow the race to finish behind the car" so it was pulled out.
> 
> I can't think of another sport that where that sort of thing would be allowed to happen.


It is not a sport, it is a circus. Change the rules, interpret the rules to manipulate the best excitement. 

Its a show with big money.


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## FishFright (9 Feb 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Does anyone really care anymore after the contrived result of last season.
> 
> It was never high on my interests, but I wont be watching it again.



I'd put good money on this coming season having a much larger audience that recent years.


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## gavroche (9 Feb 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> It is not a sport, it is a circus. Change the rules, interpret the rules to manipulate the best excitement.
> 
> Its a show with big money.


I stopped watching F1 years ago because it has become boring with too many rules and regulations.


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## gbb (9 Feb 2022)

I still watch but grudgingly, it hold little interest for me anymore, if i miss it, no problem. Years ago, id be gutted to miss a race.
Soulless, boring, predictable.. As much as i disliked Verstappen when he came on the scene, hes grown on me.
I do miss the Indy style racing from the States, far from boring. Yes it is usually an ovel track but the frequent changes of lead and pace, it was all happening in a smaller space, far more to see, particually when you took the time to learn the drivers.


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## Illaveago (10 Feb 2022)

I don't see the need for all of the changes in the car design especially if they say that they are trying to keep costs down .
If you took out Lewis and Max you would have close racing . The fact that they are way above the others tends to make it a procession.
I don't like the idea of close racing but prefer teams to come up with new ideas or having different tyre manufacturers which come up with different tyre compounds . The idea of a hoard of F1 cars closely grouped together reminds me of Formula Ford racing and would be boring .


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## figbat (10 Feb 2022)

If you took out Max and Lewis, someone else would float to the top. There have always been a top 2 or 3 drivers through a season or era and it’s as much a battle of the teams as the drivers. Close racing throughout the pack is almost impossible in a prototype formula; one or two teams will always have the money and resources to succeed. Where we do see close racing it is either in fixed formulae (identical vehicles) or formulae with success penalties (eg BTCC).


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## icowden (10 Feb 2022)

Illaveago said:


> I don't see the need for all of the changes in the car design especially if they say that they are trying to keep costs down .
> If you took out Lewis and Max you would have close racing .


That would seem to fly against the rules of physics. With the previous cars it was not possible to follow closely due to the aerodynamic disruption caused by the air flow from the car in front. If you were at the front, you tended to stay in front unless your car was a lot more powerful. The new rules are specifically to combat that and to allow the car behind to follow more closely thus making it much easier (hopefully) for overtakes to happen.


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## byegad (10 Feb 2022)

Had the last race been restarted for the last lap with no back markers moved out of their existing positions, between Max and Lewis then it's entirely possible that Max could have overtaken all 5 and Lewis in the final lap. I for one would have happily accepted that as a result.
However, that's not what happened, some of the back markers were allowed to overtake, but only the 5 between Max and Lewis, which was against the rule which states all such cars should be allowed to overtake the safety car. The adjacent rule says that after all back markers have overtaken the safety car, the race restarts at the beginning of the next lap. In this case that would be at the end of the final lap, and so the finish would have been under the safety car up to the safety car line just before the final corner. Needing only to negotiate the final corner, with no overtaking allowed until the finish line Lewis would have won. 

The hybrid choice of application of the rules to ensure a new 'World Champion' was against the spirit of sport and was, in my opinion, a pure theatrical device. 

Whatever the inquiry finds and recommends, for me the sport is tainted, in my case after 60+ yrs of following F1 it is the end. I wish all the teams and drivers good luck and may they gain the Steward's favour, because they'll need it.


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## PK99 (10 Feb 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> but the last race was as it was and he won fair and square on the basis of the race as it was
> whether or not an official made a wrong decision doens't detract from Max's driving, talent, car and all the rest



The last race was the equivalent of the last game of a Premiership season. 
The top two teams are equal on points, playing each other.
One team 2 nil up.
The floodlights fail 5 minutes before the end.
Come on again
Game restarts.
Ref says: "Next goal wins"

Utterly ridiculous.
First and last Grand Prix I have watched in full


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## matticus (10 Feb 2022)

byegad said:


> pure theatrical device.





Smokin Joe said:


> inconsistency that makes it a complete farce



It's a bit weird criticising F1 for this stuff. Just about every other major sport is officiated with enormous lumps of discretion, mostly with a heavy emphasis on keeping up the entertainment value. 
The closest sport is probably cycling: so look at the adjudication of sprint finishes in road-races. Consistent?


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## icowden (10 Feb 2022)

matticus said:


> It's a bit weird criticising F1 for this stuff.


Why? Just about everyone watching recognised that this was manifestly unfair. It didn't end as a race because one driver was given a massive advantage over the other. If Masi had wanted to end with a race, he should have left the back markers as they were. As @byegad said - Max had the ability, the speed and, thanks to luck*, the tyres to be in with a chance of taking Hamilton and the back markers. It would likely have come down to the line and been a fantastic race.

Instead, Max was given the biggest advantage it was possible to give, short of letting him overtake Hamilton and restart leading the race. It wasn't a sporting decision, it was a decision to hand Red Bull the victory on a plate, gift-wrapped, with a bow on top and sparkles.

*Mercedes only real chance to do an extra tyre change would have been earlier in the race, but would have gifted Max the lead - and given that Masi had already allowed Max to be dangerous / let him run people off the road, the risks were too big - I think against any other driver they might have risked it knowing that Hamilton had a good chance at a secure overtake.


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## classic33 (10 Feb 2022)

icowden said:


> Why? Just about everyone watching recognised that this was manifestly unfair. It didn't end as a race because one driver was given a massive advantage over the other. If Masi had wanted to end with a race, he should have left the back markers as they were. As @byegad said - Max had the ability, the speed and, thanks to luck*, the tyres to be in with a chance of taking Hamilton and the back markers. It would likely have come down to the line and been a fantastic race.
> 
> Instead, Max was given the biggest advantage it was possible to give, short of letting him overtake Hamilton and restart leading the race. It wasn't a sporting decision, it was a decision to hand Red Bull the victory on a plate, gift-wrapped, with a bow on top and sparkles.
> 
> *Mercedes only real chance to do an extra tyre change would have been earlier in the race, but would have gifted Max the lead - and given that Masi had already allowed Max to be dangerous / let him run people off the road, the risks were too big - I think against any other driver they might have risked it knowing that Hamilton had a good chance at a secure overtake.


Didn't Hamilton gain a lasting advantage, and not give the position back as required, at the start of the race. Shortcut taken over two corners. Nothing done then, or even mentioned by Mercedes.


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## matticus (10 Feb 2022)

icowden said:


> Why?


Because we can only read the first sentence of posts now?


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## Reynard (10 Feb 2022)

Illaveago said:


> I don't see the need for all of the changes in the car design especially if they say that they are trying to keep costs down .
> If you took out Lewis and Max you would have close racing . The fact that they are way above the others tends to make it a procession.
> I don't like the idea of close racing but prefer teams to come up with new ideas or having different tyre manufacturers which come up with different tyre compounds . The idea of a hoard of F1 cars closely grouped together reminds me of Formula Ford racing and would be boring .



I have a mate who dabbles in classic FF1600 - and raced in the Senior championship back in '89. FF1600 is hardly boring - think pinball on wheels...  The difference is, of course, that FF1600 has no aero at all, which is why the racing can be so close. The cars rely purely on mechanical grip.

It will be interesting to see if reverting to ground effect to generate downforce will actually change anything. I don't remember the racing in the early 80s being that close, but then, in my defence, I was only seven in 1982 when I first got interested.


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## byegad (10 Feb 2022)

Reynard said:


> I have a mate who dabbles in classic FF1600 - and raced in the Senior championship back in '89. FF1600 is hardly boring - think pinball on wheels...  The difference is, of course, that FF1600 has no aero at all, which is why the racing can be so close. The cars rely purely on mechanical grip.
> 
> It will be interesting to see if reverting to ground effect to generate downforce will actually change anything. I don't remember the racing in the early 80s being that close, but then, in my defence, I was only seven in 1982 when I first got interested.


It was much a race as most eras. The Ground Effect may be better understood now, than then, but I doubt it. Back then certain teams got it dead right and won many races, much like the last 20 yrs.


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## Reynard (10 Feb 2022)

byegad said:


> It was much a race as most eras. The Ground Effect may be better understood now, than then, but I doubt it. Back then certain teams got it dead right and won many races, much like the last 20 yrs.



Ground effect is very definitely better understood now, and the means of achieving it are better, although the basic principles of accelerating the airflow in a confined space and thus reducing the air pressure certainly haven't changed.

In the late 70s / early 80s, it was more of a "let's throw it on the car and see what works" kind of thing, as there were very few wind tunnels and no computer modelling. All the maths was pen-and-paper. There was, though, a heck of a lot of testing. What that did, though, was showcase how the different designers of the era (Colin Chapman, Gordon Murray, Patrick head, Harvey Postlethwaite, John Barnard) approached what they saw as a solution to the rules and the way of engineering (often around!) those rules. Think of the Brabham fan car and the twin-chassis Lotus 88...

Back when I was an engineering undergraduate in the mid 1990s, we were using computational fluid mechanics on a reasonably regular basis, right alongside looking at airflow with smoke, but the software we used back then was so very basic compared to what's been used now, nearly thirty years later. It allows you to visualize exactly what's happening, and to tweak as you go.

Now, there is a lot less hit-and-hope when it comes to race car engineering, simply because there is so much more data available. And that's why all the cars look so similar these days, as everyone is, through the use of computer software, being pointed towards the same optimal solutions.

It also explains why the cars are so damn fugly!


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## CXRAndy (10 Feb 2022)

Now more conversations publicised between Masi and Redbull. 

Basically, Redbull suggested, let only those cars in-between Hamilton and Verstappen through, block the rest- Masi agreeing, saying understood

Completely contrary to the rules in that situation


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## figbat (10 Feb 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Now more conversations publicised between Masi and Redbull.
> 
> Basically, Redbull suggested, let only those cars in-between Hamilton and Verstappen through, block the rest- Masi agreeing, saying understood
> 
> Completely contrary to the rules in that situation


With Masi using the same language to justify his call that RB had used to promote their case. In paraphrase it was something like:

RB: "Hey, just let those few cars through and don't bother waiting before restarting - then we have a motor race"
MM: "OK"
[Situation unfolds as outlined by RB]
Toto: "I say chap, that's not on"
MM: "It's called a motor race Toto".

I'm still angry about it.


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## figbat (10 Feb 2022)

Reynard said:


> Back when I was an engineering undergraduate in the mid 1990s, we were using computational fluid mechanics on a reasonably regular basis, right alongside looking at airflow with smoke, but the software we used back then was so very basic compared to what's been used now, nearly thirty years later. It allows you to visualize exactly what's happening, and to tweak as you go.
> 
> Now, there is a lot less hit-and-hope when it comes to race car engineering, simply because there is so much more data available. And that's why all the cars look so similar these days, as everyone is, through the use of computer software, being pointed towards the same optimal solutions.


Off topic a bit, but this reminds me of the several times I spent talking with the Thrust SSC and Bloodhound SSC teams. During one discussion on the Bloodhound car they outlined all the computational modelling they have now compared to what they had in 1997 for Thrust SSC. They also said that they had retrospectively applied the new modelling technology to the old car and discovered that they were within a whisker of disaster, even though the modelling at the time had shown they were OK.


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## Reynard (10 Feb 2022)

figbat said:


> Off topic a bit, but this reminds me of the several times I spent talking with the Thrust SSC and Bloodhound SSC teams. During one discussion on the Bloodhound car they outlined all the computational modelling they have now compared to what they had in 1997 for Thrust SSC. They also said that they had retrospectively applied the new modelling technology to the old car and discovered that they were within a whisker of disaster, even though the modelling at the time had shown they were OK.



That doesn't surprise me in the least. The real difference is down to sheer computational power, and the number of iterations the system is set up for.

When I was working on the development of the Transit Connect back in the day, we were still double-checking the stress analysis modelling using good old-fashioned maths. There was a certain amount of fudging going on to make things "fit"


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## icowden (10 Feb 2022)

classic33 said:


> Didn't Hamilton gain a lasting advantage, and not give the position back as required, at the start of the race. Shortcut taken over two corners. Nothing done then, or even mentioned by Mercedes.


No. He was not required by the race director or stewards to give the place back. He was deemed to have passed successfully and given the time advantage back. I think most would agree that that was an odd call, but it wasn't an unusual call particularly, and Lewis would have passed Max anyway (assuming Max didn't crash into him) given his speed advantage at that point.


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## CXRAndy (10 Feb 2022)

figbat said:


> Off topic a bit, but this reminds me of the several times I spent talking with the Thrust SSC and Bloodhound SSC teams. During one discussion on the Bloodhound car they outlined all the computational modelling they have now compared to what they had in 1997 for Thrust SSC. They also said that they had retrospectively applied the new modelling technology to the old car and discovered that they were within a whisker of disaster, even though the modelling at the time had shown they were OK.


I know the owners who supplied some of the carbon fibre to the bloodhound project


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## classic33 (10 Feb 2022)

icowden said:


> No. He was not required by the race director or stewards to give the place back. He was deemed to have passed successfully and given the time advantage back. I think most would agree that that was an odd call, but it wasn't an unusual call particularly, and Lewis would have passed Max anyway (assuming Max didn't crash into him) given his speed advantage at that point.


He passed whilst off the track, which isn't something that should be done, rejoining with a visible advantage that wasn't there beforehand due to missing a turn. An advantage that wasn't given back.


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## BrumJim (10 Feb 2022)

figbat said:


> Off topic a bit, but this reminds me of the several times I spent talking with the Thrust SSC and Bloodhound SSC teams. During one discussion on the Bloodhound car they outlined all the computational modelling they have now compared to what they had in 1997 for Thrust SSC. They also said that they had retrospectively applied the new modelling technology to the old car and discovered that they were within a whisker of disaster, even though the modelling at the time had shown they were OK.



I've got the book about Thrust 2 and Thrust SSC, and this notes that Thrust 2 was whithin a whisker of disaster, mainly because they were engineering on the hoof a bit. As you noted, they only found this out when running the simulation and checking it against real-world landspeed record data, i.e. what happend on Thrust 2.
The book is a fascinating insight into the engineering and team building. The UK was traditionally at the forefront of speed records until the Americans took over with the jet / rocket cars. I guess we were being a little too traditional and stuck in our ways. Then Richard Noble comes along and puts an element of professionalism into the escapade, which other record attempts haven't yet emulated. But the engineering was fascinating, where they did the calculations for the air flow, but then wanted to validate them with a practical test. Which isn't easy when you are looking at supersonic air flows.

The team-building bit was also interesting, i.e. how to manage a group of top-of-their-specialism professionals when you are simply a rich man with a bid dream. Also that the venture only worked financially because they got the record. Without it they would have been bankrupt.


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## figbat (10 Feb 2022)

BrumJim said:


> I've got the book about Thrust 2 and Thrust SSC, and this notes that Thrust 2 was whithin a whisker of disaster, mainly because they were engineering on the hoof a bit. As you noted, they only found this out when running the simulation and checking it against real-world landspeed record data, i.e. what happend on Thrust 2.
> The book is a fascinating insight into the engineering and team building. The UK was traditionally at the forefront of speed records until the Americans took over with the jet / rocket cars. I guess we were being a little too traditional and stuck in our ways. Then Richard Noble comes along and puts an element of professionalism into the escapade, which other record attempts haven't yet emulated. But the engineering was fascinating, where they did the calculations for the air flow, but then wanted to validate them with a practical test. Which isn't easy when you are looking at supersonic air flows.
> 
> The team-building bit was also interesting, i.e. how to manage a group of top-of-their-specialism professionals when you are simply a rich man with a bid dream. Also that the venture only worked financially because they got the record. Without it they would have been bankrupt.


I also have the book - I got it signed by Richard Noble and Andy Green. 😎


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## Illaveago (10 Feb 2022)

classic33 said:


> He passed whilst off the track, which isn't something that should be done, rejoining with a visible advantage that wasn't there beforehand due to missing a turn. An advantage that wasn't given back.


He had no option to go off the track otherwise there would have been a collision. Max's way of driving is to go for any gap whether he remains within the track limits or not . He also had the benefit of if he took Lewis out he would win the championship .


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## Bonefish Blues (10 Feb 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Now more conversations publicised between Masi and Redbull.
> 
> Basically, Redbull suggested, let only those cars in-between Hamilton and Verstappen through, block the rest- Masi agreeing, saying understood
> 
> Completely contrary to the rules in that situation


That's been openly available since the race. Not sure why all of a sudden it's become a smoking gun.


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## Grant Fondo (10 Feb 2022)

If you had to go out for a pint with:
a) Toto Wolff
b) Christian Horner
Who would it be?
(I would much rather listen to the drivers than the corporate arse-speak from those two)


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## Bonefish Blues (10 Feb 2022)

Mrs Wolff


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## icowden (11 Feb 2022)

classic33 said:


> He passed whilst off the track, which isn't something that should be done, rejoining with a visible advantage that wasn't there beforehand due to missing a turn. An advantage that wasn't given back.


You make it sound much more cut and dried than it was. 

Max darted down the inside to get the "overtake" but in a way which only had two outcomes - deliberately forcing Hamilton off track, or crashing. The Race director and stewards could have decided it was a dangerous overtake and given Hamilton the place back. Instead - Hamilton retained the place due to being forced off track and into a shortcut. Mercedes and Hamilton asked whether the place needed to be given back, Hamilton took the precaution of slowing to ensure that he had no lasting time advantage from the shortcut and the ultimate decision, rightly or wrongly was to let Hamilton keep the place - which he wouldn't have lost had Max been overtaking safely and correctly.

Had Masi been consistent with the rules about forcing drivers off-track then Max would have had a penalty.
Had Masi ordered Mercedes to give the place back then he would have had complaints about sanctioning Max's driving which was in breech of the rules about forcing other drivers off track.

Perhaps it would have been better for Hamilton if he had given the place back. We will never know. What is certain is that Masi engineered the result so that Max won. There can be no other conclusion from his actions. He gave the victory to Red Bull in the most unsporting manner possible whilst pretending he was doing it in the name of "sport".

Mercedes have accepted that the result will stand, but Masi has to go and the rules have to be enforced evenly and correctly so that this can never happen again.


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## Bonefish Blues (11 Feb 2022)

icowden said:


> You make it sound much more cut and dried than it was.
> 
> Max darted down the inside to get the "overtake" but in a way which only had two outcomes - deliberately forcing Hamilton off track, or crashing. The Race director and stewards could have decided it was a dangerous overtake and given Hamilton the place back. Instead - Hamilton retained the place due to being forced off track and into a shortcut. Mercedes and Hamilton asked whether the place needed to be given back, Hamilton took the precaution of slowing to ensure that he had no lasting time advantage from the shortcut and the ultimate decision, rightly or wrongly was to let Hamilton keep the place - which he wouldn't have lost had Max been overtaking safely and correctly.
> 
> ...


It's a thoughtful post, much of which I agree with, but where we differ is I think the result came from panic, not 'engineering', iyswim. The voices in his ear likely had an influence, and he just didn't think of the consequences...


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## icowden (11 Feb 2022)

Bonefish Blues said:


> It's a thoughtful post, much of which I agree with, but where we differ is I think the result came from panic, not 'engineering', iyswim. The voices in his ear likely had an influence, and he just didn't think of the consequences...


True - I'm happy also to accept that he panicked due to the relentless onslaught from Horner throughout the race.


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## Kempstonian (11 Feb 2022)

Hamilton has forced drivers off the track many times, including his own team mate Rosberg. He can't have any complaint when somebody does it to him. He just doesn't like it because Verstappen has the same attitude as him. These incidents will happen again because neither driver will back down.


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## Bonefish Blues (11 Feb 2022)

Kempstonian said:


> Hamilton has forced drivers off the track many times, including his own team mate Rosberg. He can't have any complaint when somebody does it to him. He just doesn't like it because Verstappen has the same attitude as him. These incidents will happen again because neither driver will back down.


It's a very fine line isn't it. Max is the master of 'sending it', as the currently fashionable phrase has it. Lewis is more subtle, for sure.

The drivers need clarity and consistency, that's all - they will race to the edge of what's possible.


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## ebikeerwidnes (11 Feb 2022)

In my - rather biased - opinion Max's overtaking is more aggressive to the point where it is frequently dangerous. Under pressure he will force a situation where the other driver has to let him past or crash.
As I say - I am biased.
They have to stop the teams being able to shout at the race officials when they are trying to make quick decisions based on a rule book that is massive.
In 'that race' there was, again IMO, bias at the end - but he was trying to balance loads of different things very quickly.

It will be interesting to see how things are changed/clarified next season 

not long to wait now!!


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## Bonefish Blues (11 Feb 2022)

Teams won't be able to speak direct to the Race Director, that's already been confirmed.


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## classic33 (11 Feb 2022)

icowden said:


> True - I'm happy also to accept that he panicked due to the relentless onslaught from Horner throughout the race.


Wolff wasn't a saint on the day either. Throughout the weekend. Allowing the number 25* to appear on the steering wheel of Hamiltons car, knowing full well there'd be a camera on it. In breach of regulations.

*References the 25 place "grid penalty" given to Hamilton.


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## icowden (11 Feb 2022)

classic33 said:


> Wolff wasn't a saint on the day either. Throughout the weekend. Allowing the number 25* to appear on the steering wheel of Hamiltons car, knowing full well there'd be a camera on it. In breach of regulations.
> 
> *References the 25 place "grid penalty" given to Hamilton.


Struggling to find anything about this on the internet at all. I'd have thought that it was more likely to be referencing Hamilton's Accelerate 25 diversity and inclusion programme though.


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## Beebo (11 Feb 2022)

figbat said:


> With Masi using the same language to justify his call that RB had used to promote their case. In paraphrase it was something like:
> 
> RB: "Hey, just let those few cars through and don't bother waiting before restarting - then we have a motor race"
> MM: "OK"
> ...


The fact that he uses the term “motor-race” straight after is a bit of a smoking gun for me.
He was only interested in getting a race underway, and there was only one possible outcome from that situation.


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## figbat (11 Feb 2022)

icowden said:


> Struggling to find anything about this on the internet at all. I'd have thought that it was more likely to be referencing Hamilton's Accelerate 25 diversity and inclusion programme though.


Yep, mentioned here.


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## icowden (11 Feb 2022)

figbat said:


> Yep, mentioned here.


Yes - I was trying to find out where @classic33's conspiracy theory idea had come from in the first place though.

Thanks @figbat


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## keithmac (12 Feb 2022)

Didn't Lewis take Max out at Silverstone?, 10 second penalty for Lewis and a DNF (and hospital) for Max.

Seems a bit of a soft punishment, mabe last race levelled the playing field..


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## classic33 (12 Feb 2022)

icowden said:


> Yes - I was trying to find out where @classic33's conspiracy theory idea had come from in the first place though.
> 
> Thanks @figbat


Only Hamiltons car had the "25" where his chosen race number of 44 should be on the steering wheel.

Both his and Bottas's steering wheels had "accelerate 25" in white lettering earlier on, but Bottas carried his race number "77" on the wheel.


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## Bonefish Blues (12 Feb 2022)

keithmac said:


> Didn't Lewis take Max out at Silverstone?, 10 second penalty for Lewis and a DNF (and hospital) for Max.
> 
> Seems a bit of a soft punishment, mabe last race levelled the playing field..


They were judged as both being to blame, but more on Hamilton's side. The penalty was in line with this.

They collided because neither yielded. it's indisputable that on many occasions other drivers have avoided collisions with Max.

As I said earlier, it's the rules and their application that are both ambiguous and inconsistently applied**. Needs sorting.

**No penalty for Max in Brazil? C'mon!


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## Illaveago (14 Feb 2022)

The comments from Christian Horner on the radio to Michael Masi sound a bit like "Those are not the droids you are looking for ! " From Star Wars .


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## FishFright (15 Feb 2022)

Bonefish Blues said:


> They were judged as both being to blame, but more on Hamilton's side. The penalty was in line with this.
> 
> They collided because neither yielded. it's indisputable that on many occasions other drivers have avoided collisions with Max.
> 
> ...



Same as when Hamilton cut a corner for 29 laps straight until Verstappen called it out , no penalty though. 

The penalties for all drivers were all over the place all year with the lower in the pack getting the harshest penalties.

The whole years officiating was abysmal.


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## Bonefish Blues (15 Feb 2022)

FishFright said:


> Same as when Hamilton cut a corner for 29 laps straight until Verstappen called it out , no penalty though.
> 
> The penalties for all drivers were all over the place all year with the lower in the pack getting the harshest penalties.
> 
> The whole years officiating was abysmal.


Agreed. Drivers drive to the rules...as applied. 

My personal view is that Max often went beyond the pale, but if he didn't get penalised, then it's OK - it's as binary as that.


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