# 2 or 4 panniers????



## swede101 (8 Feb 2010)

I am going to tour around France in July for more than a month, I am going to camp. 
How many panniers would I need? 2 or 4?
If I have 4 panniers will my speed, balance and agility be affected alot?

Thanks


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## rich p (8 Feb 2010)

For my longer, camping trips I use 4 panniers. My front panniers carry the sleeping mats and sleeping bags for me and my wife. If I travel lighter or alone I would use 2 rear but I don't have a problem either way.


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## ufkacbln (8 Feb 2010)

YOu don't have to keep them filled all of the time.

It is often useful to have a little extra space for that bottle of wine, bread or other stuff that you see en route and fancy for supper.


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## swede101 (8 Feb 2010)

Thank you...
What about the spoeed and agility? will it be affected much?


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## Crankarm (8 Feb 2010)

Depends what weight you have in them ............ Less is more is particularly critical for cycle touring where luggage is concerned. The less you carry the more enjoyable the ride is.


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## rich p (9 Feb 2010)

Speed and agility will be compromised by having panniers but not by having 2 or 4. 
Speed and agility have not been something I've ever worried about on tour!


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## andym (9 Feb 2010)

swede101 said:


> I am going to tour around France in July for more than a month, I am going to camp.
> How many panniers would I need? 2 or 4?
> If I have 4 panniers will my speed, balance and agility be affected alot?
> 
> Thanks



I've travelled around France for a month with two panniers plus a drybag (and backpack). You could do it with two panniers; four would give you a bit more space but then you'd have to deal worth the temptation not to fill the space just because it's there.


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## ASC1951 (9 Feb 2010)

I found that my bike handled a lot better with four panniers provided the front weight was low down i.e. low riders, not a front rack.

Just because you have four panniers doesn't mean you should fill them all! You see people cycle touring with quite ludicrous amounts of kit - bedding rolls, collapsible chairs, spare shoes, the works. I have never seen the point of taking so much stuff that 50 miles is a huge day and you have to go round the hills: it's supposed to be cycle touring, not taking your luggage for a walk.

It's very tempting to fill all the carrying space available. Don't. It isn't 'will it be nice to have this?', it's 'what will happen if I don't take this?' What worked for me was being allowed to fill the rear panniers, then re-packing it using all four.


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## andym (9 Feb 2010)

ASC1951 said:


> What worked for me was being allowed to fill the rear panniers, then re-packing it using all four.



That's a neat idea.


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## Ergle (9 Feb 2010)

Good idea to leave space for food/wine - in France there will be times when you can't be sure of buying food close to campsite or on a Monday.

I try to keep the stuff I take to a minimum, but still need 4 panniers if I'm camping and cooking. In fact I find that the "kitchen" fills a pannier.

Handling - front end is easier without front panniers, but once you get used to the fact of having the steering "damped" by the weight you soon get used to it.

I have a high rack on the front of the bike and find it ok.


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## Brains (10 Feb 2010)

The question is not 2 or 4. It is 4 or 5 or 6

As a minimum if you are camping/cooking/carying food etc then you need two rear panniers, a tent bag or sleeping bag bag, or a dry bag. 

Plus you need a handlebar bag, you need somwhere to keep the days map so you can see it without the need to stop at every intersection and get out the map, plus you keep the camera, the money, the passport etc there. That bag NEVER leaves your side (or front) 

The other set up is to loose the tent bag or sleeping bag bag, or a dry bag. and swap it for two small front panniers, which is probably the preferable set up

PS - Carry the tent poles on the underside of the top tube held on with a bungee. Carry the fuel on the underside of the down tube in a bottle cage


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## andrew_s (10 Feb 2010)

Brains said:


> The question is not 2 or 4. It is 4 or 5 or 6


You carry too much stuff.


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## Rhythm Thief (10 Feb 2010)

I usually have four panniers plus a bar bag. The tent lives on the top of the rear rack. As others have said, my panniers are not always full, but I like to have too much space rather than too little. I divvy up my panniers as if they were rooms in my house: my rear left pannier is my bedroom (sleeping bag, rollmat, book towel and wash kit), rear right is the kitchen (Trangia), front left is the wardrobe and front right is the larder. The bar bag carries odds and ends and anything valuable. Oh, and I always find space for one of those little folding three legged stools - there's nothing worse than cycling all day then having to sit cross legged on a rollmat on the floor to cook your dinner.


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## willem (10 Feb 2010)

Unless you travel far and to inhospitable places, two rear bags is all you need if you choose yoiur luggage carefully. Do not forget that front panniers and a front rack weigh some 2-2.5 kilo, even empty. They also cost some 100-150 pounds. I think for a trip to France you would do much better spending that money on lighter and more compact gear. I have two Ortlieb rear panniers, the tent on top of the rack, and a bar bag. The trick is to get a high quality compact sleeping bag (PHD?), use a super compact Thermarest Neoair mattress, or for colder weather an Exped Downmat, and leave home all that you do not need. I use a 150 gram down vest instead of a heavy and bulky fleeece. Just scrutinize every item, and decide if there is an alternative that only weighs half (there usually is).
I even have enough space for some extra cold weather gear if necessary.
Willem


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## Dave Davenport (10 Feb 2010)

We manage fine with 2 x 32 ltr. panniers on mrs d's, 2 x 48 ltr. on mine, the tent on my rack and a bar bag each. Extra food & booze can be bungied on top.

When I see people with 4 panniers, bar bag and stuff piled on the rack I do wonder what on earth they've got with them.


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## Rhythm Thief (10 Feb 2010)

My attitude when I'm touring is that I'm on holiday, not on some kind of quest to lighten my bike and live like a monk . Besides, you can distribute the weight around the bike much better with four panniers.


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## Rhythm Thief (10 Feb 2010)

Dave Davenport said:


> When I see people with 4 panniers, bar bag and stuff piled on the rack I do wonder what on earth they've got with them.



I've listed what I take in four panniers a few posts up.


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## xilios (10 Feb 2010)

We always tour with 4 panniers each with bar bags. Better to have 4 lightly packed than 2 stuffed.

Edit: The bikes ride much more stable with the weight evenly distributed.


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## andym (10 Feb 2010)

xilios said:


> Edit: The bikes ride much more stable with the weight evenly distributed.



On the other hand, I've never had an anxious moment with two fully-packed panniers plus dry bag. So personally I'm not convinced there's a strong enough reason to go with four panniers simply for extra balance. Of course if you need the space then go for four...



> When I see people with 4 panniers, bar bag and stuff piled on the rack I do wonder what on earth they've got with them.



It looks like the short answer is Trangia cooking kit (and why not? if a good cooked meal is important to you).


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## soltour (10 Feb 2010)

I always carry four panniers...two small front and two large rear..I bought Carridice some time back after getting rid of my karrimors...Mind you I have customised them with extra pouches...works brill....and I like the material of carridice even though the super c's arent completely waterproof..I bag everything anyway..oh yes and the tent and groundsheet go on the rear rack along with waterproof stuff...it sounds a lot but it doesnt take the body long to compensate


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## snorri (10 Feb 2010)

swede101 said:


> I am going to tour around France in July for more than a month, I am going to camp.


Definitely four panniers for a four week tour.
Agreed with ASC1951 re low level rack. 
On a tour of 4 weeks duration, it is good to carry a few non-essentials.


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## swede101 (10 Feb 2010)

Right i think ive come to the conclusion that I will buy 2 rear ortlieb back roller classics panniers and a bar bag, then pack all my kit and if it doesnt fit buy 2 small front ones! 
thanks for all the advice guys, much appreciated
also do you think the ortlieb back roller classics panniers will do me fine in France?


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## Danny (11 Feb 2010)

You can't go wrong with Ortlieb panniers. It is obviously sensible to see if you can get all your gear in them before forking out for front panniers. I normally only use two large rear panniers, however if I was touring for over a month I'd be tempted to have some extra capacity.

If you do want to get a pair of front panniers I've notice that they seems to go for reasonable prices on eBay (unlike rear panniers).


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## ASC1951 (11 Feb 2010)

snorri said:


> On a tour of 4 weeks duration, it is good to carry a few non-essentials.


I never got more than two weeks at a time. But I always took a small wooden pepper mill.


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## GrahamG (11 Feb 2010)

I'd have to go for front panniers if solo - don't like masses and masses on the back of the bike as it just feels unstable to me. Plus, I'm vegan and therefore rarely eat out but prefer to cook a meal every night anyway as it's cheaper. I'd be interested to know how many of the 'just a back pair' people travel alone, camping and cook every night.


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## HelenD123 (11 Feb 2010)

GrahamG said:


> I'd have to go for front panniers if solo - don't like masses and masses on the back of the bike as it just feels unstable to me. Plus, I'm vegan and therefore rarely eat out but prefer to cook a meal every night anyway as it's cheaper. I'd be interested to know how many of the 'just a back pair' people travel alone, camping and cook every night.



I tried just a back pair with a bar bag last summer carrying all my camping and cooking gear. The front end of the bike seemed too light and I barely had enough room. I'm getting front panniers for my next tour. I'm not planning on taking much more stuff but need some spare capacity in case I need to carry more food and water and want the bike to feel more balanced.


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## rich p (11 Feb 2010)

So, if I may be allowed to sum it up, the best option is definitely as follows:
2 rear, 2 front but low
plus or minus a bar bag
or
2 rear
plus or minus a bar bag
or
2 front
plus or minus a bar bag

That just about covers it or did I miss something?

The advice is really suck it and see what suits you, as you've rightly decided!


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## GrahamG (11 Feb 2010)

Basket on the back - that's the only addition I want to make. just sling food/clothes etc. in there as you go.


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## Rhythm Thief (11 Feb 2010)

ASC1951 said:


> I never got more than two weeks at a time. But I always took a small wooden pepper mill.



That's a thread in itself ... what luxuries do you take touring? For me, the aforementioned three legged folding stool (which I even found space for when we backpacked Offa's Dyke last year), a small gas lamp and a book.


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## Dave Davenport (11 Feb 2010)

I used to carry a small three leg stool as I hate having to eat sat on the ground but after I fell off it (whilst eating) for about the fourth time I launched it into a French campsite skip. I've switched to skavenging/borrowing/improvising seating arrangements, there's usually a chair of some sort or an old crate knocking about somewhere on every site, just make sure I put it back where it came from.


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## Arch (11 Feb 2010)

I read a book account of a guy's round the world trip in the 60's. He took, among other things, an eggcup, and a tin of shoe polish....


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## rich p (11 Feb 2010)

Arch said:


> I read a book account of a guy's round the world trip in the 60's. He took, among other things, an eggcup, and a tin of shoe polish....



An eggcup is a good call. I have boiled an egg for breakfast and used an upturned bottle top. Actually scrambled is a lot easier!


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## rich p (11 Feb 2010)

I'm with RT and the 3 legged stool. I even use it when we stop for a brew or lunch.
The other luxury is a mocha coffee maker.


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## Arch (11 Feb 2010)

Someone needs to invent a sort of culinary multi tool, I don't mean like a spork, but something that folds out and includes an eggcup, pestle and mortar, olive stoner and potato peeler....

I have an idea in my head, it just needs me to get round to actually making it, for a three tiered cake rack, on a sort of reverse umbrella principle. Imagine rolling up, pitching the tent, getting a brew on, and unfolding the cake rack and displaying some dainty _petit fours_....


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## Crankarm (11 Feb 2010)

Arch said:


> Someone needs to invent a sort of culinary multi tool, I don't mean like a spork, but something that folds out and includes an eggcup, pestle and mortar, olive stoner and potato peeler....
> 
> I have an idea in my head, it just needs me to get round to actually making it, for a three tiered cake rack, on a sort of reverse umbrella principle. Imagine rolling up, pitching the tent, getting a brew on, and unfolding the cake rack and displaying some dainty _petit fours_....



Yeah I'm with you on this one, something the size of multitool or Swiss army knife that when you open it out you get a knife, fork and spoon, corkscrew, egg cup, mug, plate, frying pan, gas stove, double oven, microwave, fridge freezer, dishwasher, cappucino machine and most importantly toaster. And the multitool must be able to fit in the inside pocket of a bar bag. It might take some engineering but I think it not too impossible to achieve .


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## Arch (11 Feb 2010)

Crankarm said:


> Yeah I'm with you on this one, something the size of multitool or Swiss army knife that when you open it out you get a knife, fork and spoon, corkscrew, egg cup, mug, plate, frying pan, gas stove, double oven, microwave, fridge freezer, dishwasher, cappucino machine and most importantly toaster. And the multitool must be able to fit in the inside pocket of a bar bag. *It might take some engineering* but I think it not too impossible to achieve .



We used to do that sort of thing in this country you know...


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## Rhythm Thief (12 Feb 2010)

rich p said:


> I'm with RT and the 3 legged stool. I even use it when we stop for a brew or lunch.
> The other luxury is a mocha coffee maker.



Nowadays, I'd take our espresso maker too. I can't live without my morning cup of hair raisingly strong coffee these days.


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## mike1026 (13 Feb 2010)

I'm surprised no-one mentioned the ultimate in lightweight cycle touring. The David Cameron method. Put all your stuff in the car that follows you.


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## stevenwl (3 May 2012)

My worry is about space. I would hate to crush my hat.


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## willem (3 May 2012)

My Trangia kit easily fits inside one of the two rear panniers. I do not need front panniers for a good meal. Or, for that matter, for a spacious tent, a warm sleeping bag, a comfy and warm mattress, a decent looking shirt in the evening, or what have you.
Willem


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## rich p (4 May 2012)

willem said:


> My Trangia kit easily fits inside one of the two rear panniers. I do not need front panniers for a good meal. Or, for that matter, for a spacious tent, a warm sleeping bag, a comfy and warm mattress, a decent looking shirt in the evening, or what have you.
> Willem


 Thanks for that Willem. Another typically weighty response to an old thread.


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## jags (4 May 2012)

rich p when your using 4 panniers can i ask roughly what weight are you hauling.
for my upcoming tour end of this month i will be using 4 panniers
front weighs 7lb in each
back weighs 8 maybe 9 lb in each plus my tent and stool on rear rack.
so approx 35lb.


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## rich p (4 May 2012)

jags said:


> rich p when your using 4 panniers can i ask roughly what weight are you hauling.
> for my upcoming tour end of this month i will be using 4 panniers
> front weighs 7lb in each
> back weighs 8 maybe 9 lb in each plus my tent and stool on rear rack.
> so approx 35lb.


 Something like that in total for me too jags. Weighted slightly more to the rear panniers though.


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## jags (4 May 2012)

thanks rich, to be honest my rear panniers are stuffed well near enough bedding in one cloths in other,

cooking and wet gear are up front .the bike (thorn sherpa) would take easly twice the weight but the pilot would be in a lotta trouble.
Rich can i ask have you a favourate tour stick a link up please


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## rich p (4 May 2012)

jags, I put the lighter bedding in the front anf the heavier cooking stuff in the rear but whatever works for you is fine. Where are you touring? Do I recall that it's the Ireland end to end? Good luck and have fun!

My favourite country that I have toured is Slovenia for it's compactness, beauty and the friendliness of the locals. The only fault is the quality of the beer!
Here's the link FWIW! http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/?o=1&doc_id=5779&v=78


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## jags (4 May 2012)

rich thanks again, yeah myself and bikepacker are touring from mizen head to malin and then on to giants causeway then back to my town which is near enough dublin. so a fair auld trip milage wise hope i last the distance .
thanks for the link i'll pop over there now.
cheers
jags


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## doog (4 May 2012)

Willem can afford the lightest of the light hence the two panniers he suggests. Many tourers starting out wouldnt dream of paying those prices on kit for fear of not getting the bug. Likewise many tourers want a bit of space to chuck a bottle of red and a few luxuries, plus keep with some old tried and tested (but not so light) kit.

If you have a front pannier rack and 4 panniers I so no reason why any sane person wouldn't attach them to the bike ....


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## Danny (5 May 2012)

doog said:


> If you have a front pannier rack and 4 panniers I so no reason why any sane person wouldn't attach them to the bike ....


I might leave the stool behind though.


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## willem (5 May 2012)

It is true that the very lightest gear can be expensive. At the same time lightweight gear need not be more expensive, on the contrary. For the Dutch Cycle Touring Club I have written a manual on first time cycle touring: http://www.leonpoels.nl/fietsen/deeerstekeeropfietsvakantie.pdf My argument is that it need not be expensive. The first part is about touring with a bike you already have (what can you do, and what not?). The second part is mostly about the other gear you need, or not. To make my point, I present three equipment lists for two people with the basics of tent, panniers, mattresses and sleeping bags. I first present a traditional list such as many people in Holland would take, and then two lightweight alternatives, one ultimate, the other low budget. Interestingly even the budget gear list is much lighter, but also a lot cheaper. The trick is that the money saved on front panniers and front racks is used to reduce the volume and weight of the rest. On top of that, it carefully selects some very good budget gear. I am sorry it is all in Dutch, but translating all this did not seem particularly useful since both the bikes people may have and the stuff you can buy in the shops is quite different from what is available in the UK. But the same logic applies.
Willem


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## rollinstok (5 May 2012)

I was a backpacker before taking up cycle touring and had learned the hard way about which items to take with me and which to leave at home.
Weight and volume should be taken into consideration with everything you take.
I agree with the above post that it is possible to buy very light gear at a reasonable price.
For my first cycle tour I didn't apply the logic that I had learned while backpacking and got carried away with the excitement of it all. I set off for Scotland with 4 panniers and a barbag and struggled up hills carrying gear that I never used once or very little. After this I only ever used 2 panniers and a bar bag. I have only toured for a maximum of 2 weeks within Europe and found I dont want for anything with just a 11/12 kg total load in 2 panniers plus the bar bag.
If I did extended touring in wide expanses of country with only a few population centres spread apart, then I would definitely take front panniers as well.
People are different, I have met several backpackers who tour the world with a 50 litre rucksack. I have also been in a backpackers field on a campsite in Keswick when the driver of a Mondeo pulled up, deposited 2 teenagers, bin bag after bin bag of goods until there was a 5ft pile then said "bye, see you next week " and drove off.


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## doog (5 May 2012)

Willem

I have based my post above on reading your posts on here and CTC over the last few years. Your low budget lightweight list of £800 is not a budget list I'm afraid. Most people cannot afford to justify spending that sort of money on a hobby they are just starting out on. I base this on the fact that some posters on here or CTC appear to be travelling Europe / UK in the summer, many are first timers and 'once only's ..ie LEJOG etc

Can I offer a realist 'budget list or even traditional compared to yours for UK buyers .

Tent Vango Banshee 200 £100
Footprint if needed B&Q grounsheet £5
Sleeping bag Vango 2 season £30
Sleeping mat Highlander / Trek lightweight £30
Panniers Altura Arrans 46 £50

Total £215

2 front panniers : Deuter / Carradice at £20 each
Front rack £20 

This is a realistic, relatively lightweight starter kit that would last a few years, or at least until it needs replacing / upgrading and the user is sure of their new found hobby.


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## MontyVeda (5 May 2012)

Really it's not a question of how many panniers, but how much space their is in your panniers.

for example... dave davenport has 2x 48ltr panniers, 96ltrs all in all.

I have 2x12.5 on the front and 2x 17.5 on the back, 60ltrs in all and fully packed, I've still got space for a bottle of wine and a couple of big Danish pastries, plus the tops of both racks are free for that bargain replica model Spanish galleon or whatever else i may want to bung on.


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## psmiffy (5 May 2012)

I think you will find that Mr Davenports panniers are 48l per pair - if i am wrong please direct me to where i can get some - my existing 112l is not sufficient


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## MontyVeda (5 May 2012)

Dave Davenport said:


> We manage fine with 2 x 32 ltr. panniers on mrs d's, *2 x 48* ltr. on mine, the tent on my rack and a bar bag each. Extra food & booze can be bungied on top.
> 
> When I see people with 4 panniers, bar bag and stuff piled on the rack I do wonder what on earth they've got with them.


 
it does sound awfully big... so could be a typo.


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## rollinstok (5 May 2012)

I have used a pair of Karrimor Kalahari rear panniers that expand from 60l to 75l per pair for a number of years
I like the extra space because I'm a little bit different than most people in the way I pack
One pannier has several eyelets that I put in to "air" the tent as I hate having a damp tent night after night. I pack the tent loose into this pannier with the sleeping bag on top in a dry bag. Tools and spares are kept in the rear pocket of this bag. Clothes go into the other pannier with the washkit in the rear pocket. Both panniers have room in the top for purchases of food etc and are still in the unexpanded position.
I wrap the mat in polythene and tie this to the top of the rack.


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## willem (5 May 2012)

I do not want to argue about what people should spend or not. Let me first clarify one thing that may have been lost in translation, however: the 800 pounds was for two people and not one as in your example. The quality/cost level that I chose by way of example of traditional gear was typical of what many Dutch couples would use and was chosen for that reason.This is good gear that will last 10-15 years. My argument was that by getting (much) lighter stuff one could get kit that was at least as good and at least as comfortable as that traditional kit, but for rather less money. At a cost of some 50-80 pounds per year it is, therefore, very good value, I think. The Dutch text also includes a discussion of using what you already have or could borrow (and there is plenty of good second hand stuff). That is quite relevant because in Holland many people already own camping gear (and do not need persuading that camping is fun). The only thing they may not have is panniers. The text argues that you may need less than what the shops try to sell you, and that investing in compact sleeping kit is worth the money. Each year I give presentations at annual fairs on cycle touring such as the one in Amsterdam that draws more than 20000 visitors each year (yes). If there is one thing that strikes me time and again it is the belief by many inexperienced people that they need all this stuff that is pushed so hard by the trade.
In a different line of argument, I am always a bit surprised that many people think nothing of staying in B&B's and hostels, or eating out in pubs, but frown on investment in good gear. 800 pounds is an investment in camping gear you can earn back in perhaps two longish summer holidays. And yet it will last many times longer. So I still maintain lighter is not more expensive than the equivalent traditional kit, and that investing in quality kit is one of the better investments you can do.
Willem


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## MontyVeda (5 May 2012)

out of interest Willem... what's the capacity of your two panniers plus a bar bag?
(as I recall from ancient discussions on this subject)


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## snorri (5 May 2012)

Looks as if I'm doing things right for me then , so in a couple of weeks time I'll be clipping on four panniers and a barbag with a back pack containing a few extras lashed on the rear rack. Now I just have to decide where to go.


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## willem (5 May 2012)

15 year old Ortlieb backrollers, so something like 20+20 litres. The bar bag is an old Ortlieb medium of I think 5 litres. The tent goes on top of the rack, and the bottle of meths for the Trangia in a Bikebuddy underneath the down tube. On trips in cold weather such as in Norway the panniers are full, but not in warm weather. I have enough space for food and a bottle (or rather a Platypreserve) of wine.


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## vernon (5 May 2012)

I have used four panniers and two panniers with equal success.

I have returned to using four panniers and, in addition have bought a bar bag and a rack pack

Why the change of heart?

Because I am now using Carradice Super C cotton duck products and I think it looks ace on m,y new bike.

I will have lots of spare capacity but it does mean that I can bring back loads of wine from Europe.


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## bikepacker (5 May 2012)

snorri said:


> Looks as if I'm doing things right for me then , so in a couple of weeks time I'll be clipping on four panniers and a barbag with a back pack containing a few extras lashed on the rear rack. Now I just have to decide where to go.


 
Two weeks today I am on the ferry to Dublin to meet up with forum member, jags. We are then going to do any Ireland E2E, if you fancy joining us.


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## jags (5 May 2012)

snorri more than welcome as long as you can cook.
bikepacker did you get the fast ferry or the really really slow one


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## snorri (5 May 2012)

bikepacker said:


> if you fancy joining us.


 
Thanks for the invitation, but the first leg of my journey takes me to Southampton for an event there on the 23rd, the cycle tour actually starts the next day.


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## scotty110788 (5 May 2012)

andym said:


> four would give you a bit more space but then you'd have to deal worth the temptation not to fill the space just because it's there.


+1 as a long distance walker i carry a 70litre even though my kit could prob fit in a 50, because of the extra space after ive been in a shop, its full because of the temptation which i cant resist since i have space to carry all the extra goodies which i end up regretting after few mile


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## MontyVeda (5 May 2012)

scotty110788 said:


> +1 as a long distance walker i carry a 70litre even though my kit could prob fit in a 50, because of the extra space *after ive been in a shop, its full because of the temptation which i cant resist since i have space to carry all the extra goodies which i end up regretting after few mile*


 
those three-for-two offers on a four pack of lager can be a bugger.


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