# Sprinting and going fast



## Andywinds (3 Sep 2015)

Hi, if you wanted to be able to go faster and be able to sprint would you aim to train on the bike? This sounds like an obvious question but I'm asking because there are more and more YouTube vids that indicate gym work should also be incorporated. Or is gym work for the top track cyclists?
My ability to sprint for more than 30 seconds on a bike is terrible but I've only been riding on a road bike for just over a month, I've done MTB'ing for three years now.


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## helston90 (3 Sep 2015)

Andywinds said:


> I've only been riding on a road bike for just over a month


Come back in a year and ask again. 

Gym work can feature in building strength- although you'll need to ensure you target the right muscle set in the right way. 
Nothing will beat getting out on the bike- start integrating some intervals into your training and just keep riding.


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## Hacienda71 (3 Sep 2015)

Train on the bike. Get a good training plan to give you some structure to your training. You need to identify what you want to achieve so the training plan can be tailored to suit. A tt specific rider is unlikely to use the same type of training as a crit rider.


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## Citius (3 Sep 2015)

Andywinds said:


> Hi, if you wanted to be able to go faster and be able to sprint would you aim to train on the bike? This sounds like an obvious question but I'm asking because there are more and more YouTube vids that indicate gym work should also be incorporated. Or is gym work for the top track cyclists?
> My ability to sprint for more than 30 seconds on a bike is terrible but I've only been riding on a road bike for just over a month, I've done MTB'ing for three years now.



Start with an honest appreciation of where you are now and what you want to do. Also - sprinting and 'going faster' are not necessarily the same thing and would probably involve training different aspects of your fitness. A sprint is a short duration maximal effort, whereas 'going faster'...well.......


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## zizou (3 Sep 2015)

A proper sprint cant be maintained for more than 30 seconds (even 30 seconds is pushing it for most) so no matter how hard you train, you are not going to be able to maintain it for a minute or whatever it is you are wanting to improve it too.


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## Andywinds (3 Sep 2015)

Thanks for the response all. I was just a question to find how many use weights to supplement their road ridding, but I do appreciate that this does depend on what type if riding you do.


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## uclown2002 (3 Sep 2015)




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## Andywinds (3 Sep 2015)

What is that supposed to mean?



uclown2002 said:


> View attachment 102487


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## Hacienda71 (3 Sep 2015)

Do a forum search for weight training and you will see there have been some rather heated exchanges on the merits or lack of.


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## Andywinds (3 Sep 2015)

Will do thanks.


Hacienda71 said:


> Do a forum search for weight training and you will see there have been some rather heated exchanges on the merits or lack of.


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## Joshua Plumtree (3 Sep 2015)

Andywinds - similar question asked on a TT forum where they seem to take no prisoners. 

The first two replies were ( and I paraphrase slightly):

1. Sign up to a gym and get really massive!

2. I bet you £10000 you already have enough strength to win the Tour De France. 

General consensus is that if you want to improve your cycling than cycle more.


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## fossyant (3 Sep 2015)

Ride, ride and ride more. Dead simple.

Oh you do have to try though.


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## Andywinds (3 Sep 2015)

Yes I've been around forums for over 20 years now so I should be used to that. It was a pretty dump point to raise to be fair!
I just need to ride, ride and then ride really.



Joshua Plumtree said:


> Andywinds - similar question asked on a TT forum where they seem to take no prisoners.
> 
> The first two replies were ( and I paraphrase slightly):
> 
> ...


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## Andywinds (3 Sep 2015)

I've taken your advice.



fossyant said:


> Ride, ride and ride more. Dead simple.
> 
> Oh you do have to try though.


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## ayceejay (3 Sep 2015)

I think your original question referred to* training* on the bike and this in my opinion requires a bit more thought than _Ride, ride and ride more_.
So: train for what? might be an appropriate question Andy


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## fossyant (3 Sep 2015)

No dumb questions here. We don't bite.


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## ayceejay (3 Sep 2015)

See fossy you got stuck in that 'just ride yer bike' groove twenty years back and have never thought about it since.
Andy asks a question that, like any question regarding training, elicits that same old response, I just happen to think there is more to it than that so call it dumb if you want but I know who is looking dumb from where I stand.


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## Citius (3 Sep 2015)

There's very little in cycling that can't be achieved by just riding your bike at various intensities for various durations.


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## ayceejay (3 Sep 2015)

Citius said:


> There's very little in cycling that can't be achieved by just riding your bike at various intensities for various durations.


If done in a controlled way this is what I would call *training* and not just riding your bike.
What a novice doesn't understand (hence the questions) is how to tailor various intensity and duration to meet their needs and to
answer that question we need to know what those needs are.


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## vickster (3 Sep 2015)

He says he wants to go faster on the bike and sprint for longer distances


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## Andywinds (3 Sep 2015)

My post was regarding sprinting and cycling faster. I suppose cycling faster for long, and how to improve sprinting. I'll just go on the bike and ride faster and hopefully I will be able to maintain more and more speed overtime.
Just to add I go to the gym 3-4 time a week and concentrate on strength training, I include clean and presses, squats and single leg movements, plus other movements. I also do tyre flipping in the car park 



ayceejay said:


> I think your original question referred to* training* on the bike and this in my opinion requires a bit more thought than _Ride, ride and ride more_.
> So: train for what? might be an appropriate question Andy


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## vickster (3 Sep 2015)

Join a club, you'll go faster in a group

Also work on core, glutes, hamstrings and calves, not just front quads


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## Citius (3 Sep 2015)

Citius said:


> There's very little in cycling that can't be achieved by just riding your bike at various intensities for various durations.



Like I said before...if you are new to road riding, this is all you need to do for the time being..


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## poynedexter (3 Sep 2015)

in order to get involved in a sprint, first you need to be there, at the end of a race or event. if you arent fit enough to last until last 200m, then you arent going to need a good sprint.

a good sprinter is one who can put out high power whilst being tired already. train for the journey first.


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## ayceejay (3 Sep 2015)

Question:_ How to I learn to sprint and ride faster?_
Answer:_ I'll just go on the bike and ride faster_ 
Yep that should do 'er


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## Crandoggler (3 Sep 2015)

Sprints would be achieved by carrying out interval training. 30 second bursts, followed by 90 second recovery. Do a Google search. 

Riding faster would be achieved by increasing your threshold. Effectively, you must ride at the cusp of exhaustion for long periods of time. 

I don't know why people must point fingers and take the piss. You can ride for 10 hours at a time, but if you're riding at 10mph on the flat you're not going to improve your sprint or ride speed.


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## Citius (3 Sep 2015)

Let's not start prescribing training programmes for the OP. We don't know anything about him and he hasn't asked for one anyway. Ask a general question - get a general answer.


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## Crandoggler (3 Sep 2015)

It's not a programme is it? It's very basic, generic exercise tips that would work for any cardiovascular activity.


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## ayceejay (3 Sep 2015)

Citius said:


> Let's not start prescribing training programmes for the OP. We don't know anything about him and he hasn't asked for one anyway. I'll just go on the bike and ride faster.



Although I agree with that in principle I think there are a number of people watching who have a similar unformed question who would benefit from a bit more and this is why I persevere in this kind of thread. So rather than a _ask a general question - get a general answer. _attitude perhaps we can dig a little deeper to see how it might be possible to pass on knowledge gained from experience as unlikely as this seems at first sight.


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## Citius (3 Sep 2015)

Crandoggler said:


> It's not a programme is it? It's very basic, generic exercise tips that would work for any cardiovascular activity.



Except the length, duration and intensity of any interval work tends to dictate specific outcomes. So you prescribing 30 sec intervals with 90sec recovery (without even specifying how many sets he should perform) seems a bit random and doesn't necessarily offer anything meaningful.


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## Citius (3 Sep 2015)

ayceejay said:


> Although I agree with that in principle I think there are a number of people watching who have a similar unformed question who would benefit from a bit more and this is why I persevere in this kind of thread. So rather than a _ask a general question - get a general answer. _attitude perhaps we can dig a little deeper to see how it might be possible to pass on knowledge gained from experience as unlikely as this seems at first sight.



Poyndexter's comment above pretty much covers everything he should be doing at the stage he is currently at.


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## Crandoggler (3 Sep 2015)

Ok. 

Warmup for 10-15 minutes, choose a comfortable gear. Around 80 rpm. 

- 30 seconds of 100% effort, sustain until the 30 seconds has elapsed. Choose a high gear. 
- 90 seconds active recovery, ease off, around 80rpm. 

Repeat this 10 times. 

Cool down for 10-15 minutes, choose a comfortable gear. Around 80rpm. 

Tell you what, I can also issue one for running too. 

Warmup by running at a comfortable pace for 10 minutes on a running track. 

Run as hard as you can for 100m, recover by jogging 300m. 

Repeat this 10 times. 

Cool down by jogging at a comfortable pace for 10 minutes. 

Can I interest you in a personalised plan?


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## Citius (3 Sep 2015)

This thread has already exceeded its stupidity quota - I'm out.


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## ayceejay (3 Sep 2015)

But Citius thts is what I am getting at, Crandoggler is obviously coming from out of left field so should we abandon the thread to 
it or pick up and extend the far more sensible offering from Poyndexter? 
Is your desire is to ace the race with an awe inspiring sprint or get away from the lights ahead of that berk from dispatch?


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## Crandoggler (3 Sep 2015)

Lol. Some people's reactions are laughable. He isn't Peter Sagan, he never will be. He wants to learn to sprint every now and again and now to ride faster. It's not too much to ask is it? You don't have to scrutinise every word he says and conclude that he may as well just ride until he gets faster. Truth is that this is probably what will happen anyway, but if he does a few intervals and gets faster, what's the harm? Take your head out of your arse and impart some advice instead of finding the worst in everyone.


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## Andywinds (4 Sep 2015)

Thanks, that is helpful. 



Crandoggler said:


> Sprints would be achieved by carrying out interval training. 30 second bursts, followed by 90 second recovery. Do a Google search.
> 
> Riding faster would be achieved by increasing your threshold. Effectively, you must ride at the cusp of exhaustion for long periods of time.
> 
> I don't know why people must point fingers and take the piss. You can ride for 10 hours at a time, but if you're riding at 10mph on the flat you're not going to improve your sprint or ride speed.


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## Andywinds (4 Sep 2015)

It's ok I thought that was a general answer to the my question.



Citius said:


> Let's not start prescribing training programmes for the OP. We don't know anything about him and he hasn't asked for one anyway. Ask a general question - get a general answer.


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## Andywinds (4 Sep 2015)

Yes this was the point of my post, to find out from others what they have done, I know with training it differs from person person and points of view. 



ayceejay said:


> Although I agree with that in principle I think there are a number of people watching who have a similar unformed question who would benefit from a bit more and this is why I persevere in this kind of thread. So rather than a _ask a general question - get a general answer. _attitude perhaps we can dig a little deeper to see how it might be possible to pass on knowledge gained from experience as unlikely as this seems at first sight.


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## Andywinds (4 Sep 2015)

Hi, Yes this was the sort of advice I was expecting, it was to gain a vague understanding of the type of training involved. My question was very short and limited I know but it was to see what others have done. I am not a pro rider or someone that will enter comps I just have an interest.


Crandoggler said:


> Ok.
> 
> Warmup for 10-15 minutes, choose a comfortable gear. Around 80 rpm.
> 
> ...


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## Joshua Plumtree (4 Sep 2015)

There's really no need for a structured plan unless you're racing seriously or intend doing some TT's.

Plenty of miles in your legs first off. We're coming up to winter, so join a club and get some long miles in before the New Year ( am I really saying that!) Try to sprint with the faster boys to the cafe stop and stay on their back wheel on the climbs!

Two sessions I would try after Christmas, once a week for each, indoors or out :

To ride faster for longer -

2x 20 minute intervals. Warm up, 20 mins at a faster speed than normal, recover for a bit, another 20 mins harder riding, then warm down spin to your back door. 

Sprinting -

Warm up,
20x 15 second sprints on/off ( 15 second sprint, then 15 second recovery and go again),
Recovery spin 5-10 mins,
10x 30 secs on/off sprints,
Recovery spin,
5x 1 min on/off sprints,
Recovery spin as long as you need before falling off bike.
Best done on a turbo IMO and it's not compulsory to do all three to start with. Doesn't look much on paper, but I find this extremely hard - but I am old and decrepit!

At a later date you can think about heart rates, training zones, power meters etc. if you're still keen.

Alternatively, just ride 200-300 hundred miles a week at a decent pace. That'll do the trick!


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## Sittingduck (4 Sep 2015)

Joshua Plumtree said:


> Alternatively, just ride 200-300 hundred miles a week at a decent pace. That'll do the trick!



I tried that for an entire summer and although my general performance increased considerably it didn't really improve my sprinting. Prob a lack of real structure and a lax attitude to reserving energy in the final few Km's before the sprint.

I think there is another aspect to this and that's the tactical positioning and timing. Plenty of average riders can do well in the sprint if they find the right wheel to follow and know when to light it up. Risk taking, sitting in & saving energy and getting the correct wheel are (I reackon) at least as important as the physical aspect. Although you do need a decent turn of speed, admittedly.

These are why I never do any good in the sprints... always end up being the mug who is on the front doing a lead out at 1k before the line. Guess not everybody is cut out to be a sprinter...


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## Joshua Plumtree (4 Sep 2015)

Citius said:


> Let's not start prescribing training programmes for the OP. We don't know anything about him and he hasn't asked for one anyway. Ask a general question - get a general answer.



But he did ask what other forum users did to become faster and to develop a better sprint. This surely assumes that there has to be some kind of training involved. 

Not having a go, I respect your opinion, as you seem to know what you're talking about. Just saying, that's all!


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## Citius (4 Sep 2015)

Andywinds said:


> Hi, Yes this was the sort of advice I was expecting, it was to gain a vague understanding of the type of training involved. My question was very short and limited I know but it was to see what others have done. I am not a pro rider or someone that will enter comps I just have an interest.



You are nowhere near needing to do anything like that just yet. The only people who will give you advice like that at your stage are just random nobbers with no clue what they are talking about.

If you want to improve yourself, just keep riding. If you want to sprint, just sprint. But build your base for a few months before trying to load your top end.


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## Citius (4 Sep 2015)

Joshua Plumtree said:


> But he did ask what other forum users did to become faster and to develop a better sprint. This surely assumes that there has to be some kind of training involved.
> 
> Not having a go, I respect your opinion, as you seem to know what you're talking about. Just saying, that's all!



We had to clarify his first post, as it didn't really include enough info to make a judgement (we still don't have enough). In simple terms, at his stage, he just needs to ride more and yet people are still suggesting he knocks out 30sec intervals and the like. As someone else said (rather ironically) he isn't Peter Sagan, so doesn't need to train like him - but that same person was the one prescribing those absurd interval sessions for someone who has been road riding for only a few weeks.


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## Joshua Plumtree (4 Sep 2015)

Citius said:


> We had to clarify his first post, as it didn't really include enough info to make a judgement (we still don't have enough). In simple terms, at his stage, he just needs to ride more and yet people are still suggesting he knocks out 30sec intervals and the like. As someone else said (rather ironically) he isn't Peter Sagan, so doesn't need to train like him - but that same person was the one prescribing those absurd interval sessions for someone who has been road riding for only a few weeks.


 
Agree although, having said that, I've posted a training plan of my own!


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## Citius (4 Sep 2015)

Joshua Plumtree said:


> Agree although, having said that, I've posted a training plan of my own!



Well yes you did, but in your defence you did suggest waiting until after xmas before getting stuck into the intervals, which is (IMO) absolutely the right thing to do


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## Andywinds (4 Sep 2015)

Thanks Joshua, that is very helpful.



Joshua Plumtree said:


> There's really no need for a structured plan unless you're racing seriously or intend doing some TT's.
> 
> Plenty of miles in your legs first off. We're coming up to winter, so join a club and get some long miles in before the New Year ( am I really saying that!) Try to sprint with the faster boys to the cafe stop and stay on their back wheel on the climbs!
> 
> ...


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## Andywinds (4 Sep 2015)

I take your points on board, I've received some really good info now and I do realize that I am very new to this. I suppose some of my post was asking 'what do others do'. But I will take all the advice on board. so for now I will ride and see where it takes me. Thanks



Citius said:


> You are nowhere near needing to do anything like that just yet. The only people who will give you advice like that at your stage are just random nobbers with no clue what they are talking about.
> 
> If you want to improve yourself, just keep riding. If you want to sprint, just sprint. But build your base for a few months before trying to load your top end.


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## Skudster (23 Sep 2015)

It seems really silly to me that cyclist do not supplement with strength and conditioning at the gym. I know what works for me, but I agree it does have to be tailered to suit your training schedule. I would concentrate not so much on developing muscle hypertrophy and stear more towards plyometrics.


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## Hacienda71 (23 Sep 2015)




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## ColinJ (23 Sep 2015)

I've just had a quick scan through this thread and it strikes me that Andy just wants to get a bit quicker. Mentioning sprinting and going fast probably made people think that he wants to compete at a high level. Maybe he does, but he hasn't actually said so (unless I missed it).

I wouldn't be surprised if the kind of speeds that he is thinking about are the speeds that most of us can manage, in which case just doing what most of us do would suffice, which is what various posters have already suggested - get out on the bike more often, for longer distances, tackle some challenging hills, put enough effort in to get very out of breath several times a ride, with recovery riding in between.

Andy - do you actually want to race? How fast is 'fast'? How far do you want to be able to go at that speed? If you are talking about 20-25 mph for a few miles then that is easily achievable just with regular cycling. If you are thinking 25-30 mph for 10-100+ miles, then you would have to get serious about training!


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## Andywinds (23 Sep 2015)

Hi Colin, First off I have no wish to compete, I just like the idea of increasing flat speed in shortish sections, I know that may sound odd but that's it. So I wanted to know what others did.

So my goal was to be able to hit 40mph over 1/3 of a mile on a flat, but it is a challenge. I'm enjoying getting faster for longer as I am looking to lose weight, I also go to the gym and do weights 3-4 a week, being doing this for 20 years now.

I've been doing what you have quoted, and it's working, slowly. Distance wise, the longest road session I have done is only 25 miles, hoping for 40+ tonight.

_"get out on the bike more often, for longer distances, tackle some challenging hills, put enough effort in to get very out of breath several times a ride, with recovery riding in between"
_




ColinJ said:


> I've just had a quick scan through this thread and it strikes me that Andy just wants to get a bit quicker. Mentioning sprinting and going fast probably made people think that he wants to compete at a high level. Maybe he does, but he hasn't actually said so (unless I missed it).
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if the kind of speeds that he is thinking about are the speeds that most of us can manage, in which case just doing what most of us do would suffice, which is what various posters have already suggested - get out on the bike more often, for longer distances, tackle some challenging hills, put enough effort in to get very out of breath several times a ride, with recovery riding in between.
> 
> Andy - do you actually want to race? How fast is 'fast'? How far do you want to be able to go at that speed? If you are talking about 20-25 mph for a few miles then that is easily achievable just with regular cycling. If you are thinking 25-30 mph for 10-100+ miles, then you would have to get serious about training!


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## ColinJ (23 Sep 2015)

Andywinds said:


> Hi Colin, First off I have no wish to compete, I just like the idea of increasing flat speed in shortish sections, I know that may sound odd but that's it. So I wanted to know what others did.
> 
> So my goal was to be able to hit 40mph over 1/3 of a mile on a flat, but it is a challenge. I'm enjoying getting faster for longer as I am looking to lose weight, I also go to the gym and do weights 3-4 a week, being doing this for 20 years now.
> 
> ...


Ah, well, 40 mph on the flat for 1/3 mile would really take some doing!

I just put some numbers into THIS CALCULATOR and it reckons you would have to sustain over 1,100 W for nearly a minute. You are _*not*_ going to achieve that!

To put it in perspective, according to THIS CHART, a world-class cyclist could produce about 11.5 W/kg for 1 minute, or about 800 W for a world-class rider weighing 70 kg (11 stone).

You will have to lower your target somewhat!


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## Hacienda71 (23 Sep 2015)

as ColinJ says hitting 40 mph plus on a flat road and holding it for 1/3 of a mile is not easy. You are looking at a very good amateur club rider to get there, pushing pro territory.


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## Andywinds (23 Sep 2015)

Ooops, left out an important part of my goal, I just want to max out at 40mph and not maintain. 



ColinJ said:


> Ah, well, 40 mph on the flat for 1/3 mile would really take some doing!
> 
> I just put some numbers into THIS CALCULATOR and it reckons you would have to sustain over 1,100 W for nearly a minute. You are _*not*_ going to achieve that!
> 
> ...


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## Citius (23 Sep 2015)

Skudster said:


> It seems really silly to me that cyclist do not supplement with strength and conditioning at the gym. I know what works for me, but I agree it does have to be tailered to suit your training schedule. I would concentrate not so much on developing muscle hypertrophy and stear more towards plyometrics.



I would steer more towards riding a bike...


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## PhilDawson8270 (23 Sep 2015)

Skudster said:


> It seems really silly to me that cyclist do not supplement with strength and conditioning at the gym. I know what works for me, but I agree it does have to be tailered to suit your training schedule. I would concentrate not so much on developing muscle hypertrophy and stear more towards plyometrics.



Increasing strength is irrelevant for cycling.


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## ColinJ (23 Sep 2015)

Andywinds said:


> Ooops, left out an important part of my goal, I just want to max out at 40mph and not maintain.


Ah ... Yes, that sounds more doable!

I haven't actually raced but did get into a few sprints to road signs on training camp holidays. I'm not quite sure what the appeal of doing a solo sprint is though ...


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## Ian H (23 Sep 2015)

Euphemistically speaking...


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## uclown2002 (23 Sep 2015)

Reaching 40mph on the flat without a significant tail wind will take some doing!


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## Citius (23 Sep 2015)

uclown2002 said:


> Reaching 40mph on the flat without a significant tail wind will take some doing!



It certainly will, especially if you plan on attempting it on your own. The highest I've ever seen in a road race bunch on the flat is 39mph, and that was in the middle of a big group of 60+ riding at full gas.


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## Sittingduck (24 Sep 2015)

40mph is a nice target - good luck with that!


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## ColinJ (24 Sep 2015)

Make sure that your bike is in very good working order if you are going to be standing up and sprinting hard - take it from me, you do not want to 'do a Duncroft Avenue'!


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## Skudster (24 Sep 2015)

PhilDawson8270 said:


> Increasing strength is irrelevant for cycling.


 
That's why I said not to developing muscle hypertrophy... Plyometrics is more about muscular contraction and nervous system controls.

Citius - Riding a bike is great too I agree, I just said I think it's silly not to add in strength and conditional to supplement. I can only speak about what works for me and improved my performances, but as others have pointed out training is a personal thing and depends on goals. I also am a kick boxer and triathlete so my goals are different, but plyometrics improved my all round performance.


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## Citius (24 Sep 2015)

Skudster said:


> I just said I think it's silly not to add in strength and conditional to supplement



I don't really see the point of it, personally. Conditioning probably has it's place - strength doesn't really. Cycling is such a low impact sport that neither is really necessary, IMO.


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## marzjennings (24 Sep 2015)

PhilDawson8270 said:


> Increasing strength is irrelevant for cycling.


Not for sprinting it's not. Weight and strength training is very relevant to sprinting.


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## uclown2002 (24 Sep 2015)




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## Tin Pot (24 Sep 2015)

How about reducing body fat?

<rolls in grenade, scarpers>


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## Citius (24 Sep 2015)

marzjennings said:


> Not for sprinting it's not. Weight and strength training is very relevant to sprinting.



It has been traditionally linked with track sprinting, but there's actually very little evidence to support the need for the huge thighs that most track sprinters have. Compare someone like Hoy or Forstermann to someone like Jason Kenny. Totally different physiques, but the same event...


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## Joshua Plumtree (24 Sep 2015)

Apparently, Jason Kenny recommends squats, dead lifts etc for building muscle mass for faster sprinting; fantastic if all your rides are less than a mile in duration! and don't expect to be able to fit into those skinny fit jeans anytime soon.


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## PhilDawson8270 (25 Sep 2015)

marzjennings said:


> Not for sprinting it's not. Weight and strength training is very relevant to sprinting.



The amount of force you can put through bicycle pedals is limited to your weight.

Once you put more force on the pedals than your mass, then all you do is stand up. With nothing to push against, you can only push up to your mass.

Weight and strength is important to sprinting on foot, as more strength means you can propel the body harder, or longer, or faster. On a bicycle, you are limited by your mass.


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## ColinJ (25 Sep 2015)

PhilDawson8270 said:


> The amount of force you can put through bicycle pedals is limited to your weight.
> 
> Once you put more force on the pedals than your mass, then all you do is stand up. With nothing to push against, you can only push up to your mass.
> 
> Weight and strength is important to sprinting on foot, as more strength means you can propel the body harder, or longer, or faster. On a bicycle, you are limited by your mass.


Even though I am not a proponent of strength training for general cycling, I'll have to point out an error in that thinking ...

If you are riding no hands, then yes - all you can do is to stand on the pedals and put your weight on them (somewhat difficult to do on a bicycle!).

If you have hold of the bars then you can pull against them so your legs have a very stabilised pelvis to push against. As I have mentioned in other threads, I pull very hard on the bars when climbing steep hills. (I am not pressing straight down on the pedals. My hips are well back from the bottom bracket so the force on the pedals is acting forwards and down.)


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## Citius (25 Sep 2015)

You would be right if the pulling up force directly opposed the pushing down force - but it doesn't. The fixed point (ie the point there your hands are on the bars) is nowhere near the point of force application (ie the point where your feet are on the pedals), in fact it's not even in the same plane, so pulling up on the bars will have a very limited effect on increasing force on the pedals


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## marzjennings (25 Sep 2015)

PhilDawson8270 said:


> The amount of force you can put through bicycle pedals is limited to your weight.
> 
> Once you put more force on the pedals than your mass, then all you do is stand up. With nothing to push against, you can only push up to your mass.
> 
> Weight and strength is important to sprinting on foot, as more strength means you can propel the body harder, or longer, or faster. On a bicycle, you are limited by your mass.


Um, no, wrong in so many ways. Either seated or standing one can quite easily push down with more force than is required to stand up (lift own body mass). It's why folks 'pull' on the bars, to keep their bodies from being lifted and focusing force down through the pedals.


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## marzjennings (25 Sep 2015)

Citius said:


> You would be right if the pulling up force directly opposed the pushing down force - but it doesn't. The fixed point (ie the point there your hands are on the bars) is nowhere near the point of force application (ie the point where your feet are on the pedals), in fact it's not even in the same plane, so pulling up on the bars will have a very limited effect on increasing force on the pedals


 And still wrong. This is why a strong core is important to translate the pulling up on the bars with the pushing down through the pedals.


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## Citius (25 Sep 2015)

I think you need to draw a diagram - you haven't understood it.


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## ColinJ (25 Sep 2015)

I think it rather funny that "_you cannae change the laws of physics_" but you are trying to! 

You need to work out what the components of the various forces are and remember that the hands are connected to the arms, the arms to the shoulders, the shoulders to the back, the back to the pelvis and the pelvis to the legs. 

Pedals are way away from the sprockets and the forces on them act in different directions throughout the pedal stroke but the pedals still manage to propel the bike forwards!

Anyway, I am off out on my bike! If somebody else has not managed to convince you, then I might have another go if I am bored this evening ...


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## Dogtrousers (25 Sep 2015)

This is why it's always better to take your water bottle off your frame and put it in your jersey pocket at the bottom of a climb, it helps you press down harder on the pedals. Even better, if there is a small boy handy at the bottom of the climb you should get him to ride on your shoulders.


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## marzjennings (25 Sep 2015)

Citius said:


> I think you need to draw a diagram - you haven't understood it.



In this video, for the first few seconds, do you think Chris is applying a down force greater than or equal to his body mass?
If you think equal to, then why is he pulling so hard on the bars?
If greater than, how is his body staying put, and hardly bouncing up and down?


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## Citius (25 Sep 2015)

The point is moot anyway, because NOT holding onto the bars is not an option. Assuming you accept that, then the only other question is how much more force is it possible to apply to the pedals by pulling up. Some, but not much, by definition. Principally because of the angles of the forces, as mentioned earlier.

Besides - accelerating from a standing start and sprinting while already underway are totally different in almost every aspect.


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## Citius (25 Sep 2015)

ColinJ said:


> I think it rather funny that "_you cannae change the laws of physics_" but you are trying to!



Nobody's trying to change them. But it helps if you could at least understand them properly.


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## Citius (25 Sep 2015)

Dogtrousers said:


> Even better, if there is a small boy handy at the bottom of the climb you should get him to ride on your shoulders.



Strictly speaking, the small boy should be placed on your lower back, for maximum offset.*

(*not a serious reply)


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## marzjennings (25 Sep 2015)

Citius said:


> The point is moot anyway, because NOT holding onto the bars is not an option. Assuming you accept that, then the only other question is how much more force is it possible to apply to the pedals by pulling up. Some, but not much, by definition. Principally because of the angles of the forces, as mentioned earlier.



Nice try at deflection, but we're not talking about pulling up through the pedals, but pushing down and whether one is able to apply more downward force through the pedals than one's own mass. Have you changed your mind and now accept than a 90kg rider can apply 100kg force to a pedal?


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## Citius (25 Sep 2015)

marzjennings said:


> Nice try at deflection, but we're not talking about pulling up through the pedals



I mean pulling up on the bars. Nobody is talking about pulling up through the pedals.



marzjennings said:


> Have you changed your mind and now accept than a 90kg rider can apply 100kg force to a pedal?



You will only exert anything like a maximal force on an object while it is stationary. As soon as the pedal starts to move (ie a split-second later), the application of a maximal force is no longer possible, regardless of how much you pull up (on the bars). Could you perhaps remind yourself what the thread is about before you go off on a complete tangent?


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## marzjennings (25 Sep 2015)

Citius said:


> I mean pulling up on the bars. Nobody is talking about pulling up through the pedals.
> 
> 
> 
> You will only exert anything like a maximal force on an object while it is stationary. As soon as the pedal starts to move (ie a split-second later), the application of a maximal force is no longer possible, regardless of how much you pull up (on the bars). Could you perhaps remind yourself what the thread is about before you go off on a complete tangent?



What? Ok, so your sentence wasn't clear as I thought you had started talking about pulling up through the pedals. 

You don't have to pull up much on the bars to increase the downward force to the pedal. If a 90kg rider is applying 100kg at the pedal, then he only has to apply a pull of ~10kg at the bar. And that force is applied generally through a segment of the pedal stroke, not as an instantaneous effort or only applied to a stationary pedal.


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## Citius (25 Sep 2015)

marzjennings said:


> If a 90kg rider is applying 100kg at the pedal, then he only has to apply a pull of ~10kg at the bar.



Your rationale is utterly absurd. Think about it.


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## marzjennings (25 Sep 2015)

Citius said:


> Your rationale is utterly absurd. Think about it.



Ok, let's make this a bit simpler. If a 90kg person stands from sitting, using one leg, with a 10kg weight in hand, how much force are the applying to the floor? More or less than their mass?


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## Citius (25 Sep 2015)

Stop asking the obvious. When you stand up, you are pushing against a stationary object (ie the floor). Look at how the forces are directed through a bicycle. You will never put your entire bodyweight through one pedal, even if you wanted to.


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## marzjennings (26 Sep 2015)

Citius said:


> Stop asking the obvious. When you stand up, you are pushing against a stationary object (ie the floor). Look at how the forces are directed through a bicycle. You will never put your entire bodyweight through one pedal, even if you wanted to.


And yet still wrong and still no clue. Did you even watch the Chris Hoy video? Can you even imagine how much force he is applying to his pedals for the first half dozen pedal strokes? 
Do you think he squats 227kg (or at least used to) just to push 90kg of force down through the pedals?


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## Joshua Plumtree (26 Sep 2015)

marzjennings said:


> And yet still wrong and still no clue. Did you even watch the Chris Hoy video? Can you even imagine how much force he is applying to his pedals for the first half dozen pedal strokes?
> Do you think he squats 227kg (or at least used to) just to push 90kg of force down through the pedals?


 
Not sure who's right on this one, but that photo makes me cringe.
Knew someone (on the strongman circuit) whose knees, in effect, exploded from the sheer pressure of such a large force and the over extension in the knees.

Still can't walk without the aid of walking sticks.


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## Citius (26 Sep 2015)

marzjennings said:


> Can you even imagine how much force he is applying to his pedals for the first half dozen pedal strokes?



Let's stop 'imagining'. How much force _does_ he apply to the pedals? I assume from your somewhat arrogant stance that you must know, so tell me the number.



marzjennings said:


> Do you think he squats 227kg (or at least used to) just to push 90kg of force down through the pedals?



Let's get this into perspective. Hoy's squat of 227kg is quite a bit less than the women's world record, which is somewhere closer 400kg. He's not pushing massive weights, and certainly not pushing anything like those a male weightlifter would lift for his class. 

As you have been repeatedly told, the only time you will get anywhere close to applying a maximal force on a pedal is at the start of something like a kilo sprint, but as soon as you begin to move, the forces drop right off and the aerobic pathwways take over - for reasons which are well understood in physics (by everyone but you, it seems).

I really don't get why you are trying to make such an irrelevant point, citing examples of how someone trains for a unique and specific track discipline that 99% of people on here will probably never compete in (ie a kilo sprint), when the thread is about riding on the road. Do you understand that this thread is not about track sprinting, or starting a kilo sprint? You are way off topic with this stuff. You are also embarrassing yourself, but I'll humour you for now


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## PhilDawson8270 (26 Sep 2015)

@marzjennings If cyclists exert more force than their bodyweight.

Can you please explain why professional cyclists in the tour de france do NOT exceed their bodyweight? As I have proven this to be the case previously


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## PhilDawson8270 (26 Sep 2015)

@marzjennings to save you looking, I'll even repost it here for you.

From here
In fact, I'll give it a quick go as an example.

Using information from Stage 18 of the 2013 tdf available here http://velonews.competitor.com/2013...sis-stages-18-19-at-the-tour-de-france_296653 with over 4km of climbing on the stage.

Using Normalised power as the power

Power = 314W
Cadence = 82rpm
Crank Length = 172.5mm (No crank length data so we will just use this)

So Power = work/time

314W = work/time

To find the time we know the crank has radius 172.5 so has diameter 345mm Which has circumference pi*d which comes out to 1083.84mm, since this crank length is already an assumption, I'm quite happy to call this 1.1m for simplicity of calculation.

With a cadence of 82rpm it takes 0.73seconds per revolution

Rearrange power = work/time to work = Power*time

work = 314*0.73
= 229.22 Nm of torque

Which is 23.4 kg m Since 1m is quite close to our full revolution, half of that is what is put through 1 pedal.

So the best cyclists in the world, on a stage that involved much climbing were only putting 11.7 Kg through each pedal stroke.

The amount is tiny, in fact, the weight they put on the pedal is less than some bicycles weigh.

As you can clearly see, strength won't be a limiting factor, and squatting really won't help to get up those hills


From here
http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/toolbox/power-output-and-cadence-learning-from-the-pros/#.VazZn9xViko

That source suggests during large climbs, cadence drops to 71rpm and power stays at 311. So I'd expect the "strength" on this to be higher due to same power and lower cadence.

71rpm is 0.84s per revolution

work = 311*0.84 = 261.24 Nm or 13.31 Kg per leg

So it the pros are only using a little extra power to get up the hills, the difference isn't a massive amount.


Find the power and cadence from a track sprinter, and I'll quite happily do the math.


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## marzjennings (26 Sep 2015)

PhilDawson8270 said:


> @marzjennings If cyclists exert more force than their bodyweight.
> 
> Can you please explain why professional cyclists in the tour de france do NOT exceed their bodyweight? As I have proven this to be the case previously



This is getting ridiculous and the inaccurate statement I'm addressing is this one...

_The amount of force you can put through bicycle pedals is limited to your weight.
Once you put more force on the pedals than your mass, then all you do is stand up. With nothing to push against, you can only push up to your mass.
Weight and strength is important to sprinting on foot, as more strength means you can propel the body harder, or longer, or faster. On a bicycle, you are limited by your mass._

Not how much force is applied on average through a tour or for the duration of a sprint or kilo. Just the simple fact that any rider can at some point can exert a force greater than their mass through a single pedal stroke. And that a rider's mass is not the limiting factor on how much force they can apply to the pedals for either an instantaneous or very short period of time. 

I'm starting to worry that you and @Citius aren't able to carry a couple of heavy shopping bags up a flight of stairs and that you think you can out accelerate a pro tracker rider who's lighter than you.


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## Citius (26 Sep 2015)

marzjennings said:


> Not how much force is applied on average through a tour or for the duration of a sprint or kilo. Just the simple fact that any rider can at some point can exert a force greater than their mass through a single pedal stroke. And that a rider's mass is not the limiting factor on how much force they can apply to the pedals for either an instantaneous or very short period of time.
> 
> I'm starting to worry that you and @Citius aren't able to carry a couple of heavy shopping bags up a flight of stairs and that you think you can out accelerate a pro tracker rider who's lighter than you.



Any chance you could answer my question earlier - you know, the one about how much force Hoy is pushing at the start of a kilo? Don't hold back on us now...

I think it's generally accepted that pedal force is not a limiting factor for either sprinting or endurance - but thanks for pointing that out.


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## marzjennings (26 Sep 2015)

Citius said:


> I think it's generally accepted that pedal force is not a limiting factor for either sprinting or endurance - but thanks for pointing that out.



Again, deliberately avoiding the point, but for some it seems the mass of the cyclist is a limiting factor to the amount of force that can be applied at the pedal. 

Do you or @PhilDawson8270 still think a cyclist can not apply a force greater than their mass to the pedals?


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## Citius (26 Sep 2015)

marzjennings said:


> Again, deliberately avoiding the point, but for some it seems the mass of the cyclist is a limiting factor to the amount of force that can be applied at the pedal.



You don't know, do you. Such a shame, because you seemed very certain earlier. 



marzjennings said:


> Do you or @PhilDawson8270 still think a cyclist can not apply a force greater than their mass to the pedals?



Well, I expect Phil can answer for himself. But I personally don't, for all the reasons that have been stated. Can you point me to some evidence that shows it _is_ possible. Maybe use Chris Hoy as an example... 

You're obviously entitled to your opinions, but I am entitled to ridicule them if you can't support them.


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## PhilDawson8270 (27 Sep 2015)

Please provide, cadence, crank size and power for any rider if your choice. 

I supported my argument with data and maths. If you provide me some data from a tech cyclist. I will happily do the math, which will say for certain.

On a leg press machine your back is supported and body movement restricted. Therefore you loft the weight. I can leg press over 250kg and I weigh 85kg.

What do you think would happen if I tried to do that without having your upwards motion restricted? All that would happen is your would stand up.

Please provide any data you can find


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## Joshua Plumtree (27 Sep 2015)

Isn't every getting a little bogged down in arguments over leg presses and squats and whether you can transfer most of that power through the pedal stroke. Obviously you can't!

But - if I can squat 300kgs compared to the bloke next to me only being able to squat 200, then, * If everything else is equal, *I'm gonna be producing more power through the pedal stroke for the same level of effort as the guy who can't squat as much. Surely that's the reason track sprinters use weights in the gym, not to be able to replicate their power output per squat, but to produce a higher power output than they would otherwise achieve at a given intensity level.

How any of this is applicable to use road cyclists is a mute point!


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## marzjennings (27 Sep 2015)

PhilDawson8270 said:


> Please provide, cadence, crank size and power for any rider if your choice.
> 
> I supported my argument with data and maths. If you provide me some data from a tech cyclist. I will happily do the math, which will say for certain.
> 
> ...



You really have no idea what your arms are for do you?

OK some numbers, for the average track start lets say 1500 watts for about 4-12 pedals strokes (Hoy had a max around 2400w for the start). Riders cadence is going from 0 to 60 in about 15 strokes, so average about 30rpm. So taking your basic calculation from earlier on we have more than half the cadence and 5 times the power which would equal well over 100kg per leg. But how is that possible?!?!

Again watch and learn...



At start, full weight on the pedals, legs extending and pushing down through the pedal, backside actually dropping and not lifting as the rider pedals. Arms and core acting together to restrict upper body movement.


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## Citius (27 Sep 2015)

Joshua Plumtree said:


> But - if I can squat 300kgs compared to the bloke next to me only being able to squat 200, then, * If everything else is equal, *I'm gonna be producing more power through the pedal stroke for the same level of effort as the guy who can't squat as much.



No you aren't. This has been discussed many times.

I still don't understand why we are talking about track starts in a thread about going faster on the road.


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## marzjennings (27 Sep 2015)

Citius said:


> No you aren't. This has been discussed many times.
> 
> I still don't understand why we are talking about track starts in a thread about going faster on the road.


Because a incorrect comment was made how one's mass limits the amount of force applied to the pedals. _The amount of force you can put through bicycle pedals is limited to your weight.
_
Also, sprinting is sprinting, track or road and both benefit from additional leg strength.


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## Citius (27 Sep 2015)

marzjennings said:


> Also, sprinting is sprinting, track or road and both benefit from additional leg strength.



No. This is why it is pointless engaging with you, because you just will not understand. Stop dwelling on minute detail and start looking at the bigger picture, because only the bigger picture is actually relevant. Strength (stronger legs) may give you a higher peak power, but average power is what wins races, not peak power. The Australian track team found that out in Beijing 08, because they spent all their time training for peak and came home with nothing. Cavendish is an excellent example of a (road) sprinter with 'rubbish' peak power (his words). At the top of his game, his average was still far higher than those with supposedly 'stronger' legs.


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## poynedexter (27 Sep 2015)

a fella was out with me today cycling in a small group. we sprinted to some 30mph signs and i smoked him easily. he's much stronger than me and has big legs. he squats and i havent in about a year.

i dont understand why. we'd both done about 70 miles and he had carbon wheels. i had mudguards on and had done a ramp test on friday and a steady 50 miles on saturday. he still has stronger legs though but his bike went slower.

Mmmmm?


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (27 Sep 2015)

poynedexter said:


> a fella was out with me today cycling in a small group. we sprinted to some 30mph signs and i smoked him easily. he's much stronger than me and has big legs. he squats and i havent in about a year.
> 
> i dont understand why. we'd both done about 70 miles and he had carbon wheels. i had mudguards on and had done a ramp test on friday and a steady 50 miles on saturday. he still has stronger legs though but his bike went slower.
> 
> Mmmmm?


Because, magic


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## Citius (27 Sep 2015)

Definitely magic. Can't think of any other explanation.


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## marzjennings (27 Sep 2015)

Citius said:


> No. This is why it is pointless engaging with you, because you just will not understand. Stop dwelling on minute detail and start looking at the bigger picture, because only the bigger picture is actually relevant. Strength (stronger legs) may give you a higher peak power, but average power is what wins races, not peak power. The Australian track team found that out in Beijing 08, because they spent all their time training for peak and came home with nothing. Cavendish is an excellent example of a (road sprinter) with 'rubbish' peak power (his words). At the top of his game, his average was still far higher than those with supposedly 'stronger' legs.



And we're not talking about wining races, either track or road, you've lost the point of this thread. Just, how to go faster in a sprint. How to reach a target speed, regardless of the 'bigger picture'. Explosive speeds and sprints need strong legs. Very very simple.


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## Citius (27 Sep 2015)

marzjennings said:


> Explosive speeds and sprints need strong legs. Very very simple



No - they - don't. FFS. Define 'explosive'. Climbers can be explosive in their attacks, but....you know the rest.....

Lots of people have already tried to explain to you why this isn't the case. Please provide some actual detail as to why you don't agree with those explanations.


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## marzjennings (27 Sep 2015)

Citius said:


> No - they - don't. FFS. Define 'explosive'. Climbers can be explosive in their attacks, but....you know the rest.....
> 
> Lots of people have already tried to explain to you why this isn't the case. Please provide some actual detail as to why you don't agree with those explanations.



Lots? So far only 2 seem to be supporting rather ridiculous counter opinions about the limits of force that a rider can be apply to the pedals,

Not discussing winning races or really whether squats can help build usable strength. Just the simple concept that if I stand on my pedals and pull up with my arms, the resultant force is greater than my mass (I'm not even including the possibility that I could be also extending my leg at the same time). And therefore with stronger arms, core and legs I would be able to apply more force to the pedals and my actual mass is not a limiting factor. This can they help me 'explode' or accelerate rapidly from speed x to speed y, where x could be zero. Or as in my ride yesterday, provide a little more power required to clear a short climb.


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## Simpleton (27 Sep 2015)

PhilDawson8270 said:


> @marzjennings to save you looking, I'll even repost it here for you.
> 
> From here
> In fact, I'll give it a quick go as an example.
> ...



watts is 2300, there is no cadence.


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## Citius (27 Sep 2015)

marzjennings said:


> Lots? So far only 2 seem to be supporting rather ridiculous counter opinions about the limits of force that a rider can be apply to the pedals,



Which - incidentally - you have still to clarify in a way that actually means something, despite me asking you at least twice to do so. You'll probably ignore this request as well. The irony is you are so convinced that pulling on the bars gives you all this extra power, yet you can't articulate how much power it provides, and you can't provide a single shred of evidence to support it. Meanwhile, people that actually know what they are talking about are running rings around you.


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## Moderators (27 Sep 2015)

Thread derailed.
Argument going round in circles.
Comments getting personal.

Time for this one to be locked I think.


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## marzjennings (27 Sep 2015)

Citius said:


> Which - incidentally - you have still to clarify in a way that actually means something, despite me asking you at least twice to do so. You'll probably ignore this request as well. The irony is you are so convinced that pulling on the bars gives you all this extra power, yet you can't articulate how much power it provides, and you can't provide a single shred of evidence to support it. Meanwhile, people that actually know what they are talking about are running rings around you.


 I so no rings around me. Just a couple of folks not willing to accept they are wrong. Who are these people you claim know what they are talking about, as I assume you are not including yourself in that set?


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