# Anyone had spinal fusion ?



## kingrollo (14 Dec 2019)

I have had problems with my facet joints for around 30 years now. The most lasting solution was steriod injections - but the last one only gave relief for a few months - like wise the preferred treatment on the NHS is nerve abalation - this worked great - but again lasted only a few months.

The next - very drastic option would be spinal fusion - Google doesn't help - because you get clinics tell you its marvelous - then the other extreme saying they ended up in a wheelchair.

like I say I have had this problem for 30 years - I still do yoga and pilates - have seen numerous physios, chiros, etc ..

So has anyone had spinal fusion ?


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## ColinJ (14 Dec 2019)

I just searched the forum and found several members talking about having had it done.


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## numbnuts (14 Dec 2019)

Yes me in 1989, firstly I will say things have improved since that date and you don't have to spend so much time in hospital as I did.
I had L4 L5 fused due to accident, before surgery I had no feeling in my legs and was incontinent, after operation feeling started coming back, but not to all areas and was still incontinent, it took nearly 10 years before I regained my bladder control, so ask loads of questions before you say yes to the operation. The only other thing that the physio told me that having it done, it does but more strain on the joins above and below as they have to work harder as you have a straight bit in your spine, hasn't given me any trouble.
Lastly who will do the operation if it is not a neurosurgeon think twice.


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## vickster (14 Dec 2019)

@roadrash @DCBassman perhaps

https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/more-real-steel.255330/


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## ColinJ (14 Dec 2019)

Did @fossyant have it done too after being knocked off his bike?


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## roadrash (14 Dec 2019)

Thanks @vickster , as already mentioned , ask lots of questions , give it a lot of thought and do your homework , before deciding whether or not to go ahead with surgery, no matter how good the surgeon, there are no guarantees one way or the other.

here is the thread regarding my l4/l5 fusion , discectomy and facetectomy , all done during a single op (approx 6.5 hours)

https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/there-is-light-at-the-end-of-the-tunnel.164232/


surgeon says the fusion needs extending now but i have declined, for my own reasons.

whatever you do , dont be tempted to watch the op on youtube first ,

it is brutal surgery and a descision should not be rushed


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## roadrash (14 Dec 2019)

vickster said:


> @roadrash @DCBassman perhaps
> 
> https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/more-real-steel.255330/



and not forgetting @SatNavSaysStraightOn who has been through a hell of a lot, I have messaged her several times but got no reply


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## fossyant (14 Dec 2019)

ColinJ said:


> Did @fossyant have it done too after being knocked off his bike?



No, it was an option (i.e bolt about 4 vertebrae together with scaffolding). I opted not to. 6.5 weeks on my back as bones healed. I'm left with half my L1 missing - cheese wedge shape, rather than square, but all's relatively OK now. General back condition is tip top for my age (discs), other than the damage around the injury. Still get a bit of bother, but I manage OK with it - not too much pain now.

Spinal surgery is not something you should take lightly. I was told 'we can operate tomorrow, but you can move now, you might not tomorrow'. I opted to 'suck and see' - if surgery was needed then go for it, but wait for nature to do it's stuff. Does mean I still have flexbility, and no metal work, which is permanent.

Bit different than if you've got knackered discs and are suffering. Back pain is horrible.


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## fossyant (14 Dec 2019)

kingrollo said:


> I have had problems with my facet joints for around 30 years now. The most lasting solution was steriod injections - but the last one only gave relief for a few months - like wise the preferred treatment on the NHS is nerve abalation - this worked great - but again lasted only a few months.
> 
> The next - very drastic option would be spinal fusion - Google doesn't help - because you get clinics tell you its marvelous - then the other extreme saying they ended up in a wheelchair.
> 
> ...



It's worth contacting this chap below - what he doesn't know about the spine can't fill a postage stamp. I work with him - he can at least give you an opinion before surgery. Chris heads our 'Movement Unit'. He saw me walking a bit stiff the other week, stopped and said 'how's your back ?, I can see you not walking properly" (I thought I was OK). I said, '4 hours on the Mountain Bike yesterday'. Thumbs up from him... 

Might even be worth a chat over the phone - It might be that he says surgery might be the option. If you say "Anthony" has said to give you a call because of your back knowledge - if you mention cycling he will know.

https://www2.mmu.ac.uk/hpsc/our-staff/search/profile/?id=2971

I had looked at nerve ablation for another issue I have - was on the waiting list until I broke my back - well if that doesn't work, then I'll stick with it, as been thinking about the procedure - I'll stick with the pain - nothing to do with the back/joints).


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## kingrollo (15 Dec 2019)

Reading around - I don't think my back is bad enough for spinal fusion. I don't have weakness in my leg and no tingling.....

Having tried everything up to including nerve ablation - I just wonder what the next options are.


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## vickster (15 Dec 2019)

kingrollo said:


> Reading around - I don't think my back is bad enough for spinal fusion. I don't have weakness in my leg and no tingling.....
> 
> Having tried everything up to including nerve ablation - I just wonder what the next options are.


Perhaps have a consult with a neurosurgeon with spinal expertise?


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## Proto (15 Dec 2019)

Yes, Me. 

I managed to smash T12 (compression ‘burst’ fracture). Repair was internal fixation to stabilise with some great big wood screws, bone graft from my hip and fusion of T11, T12 and L1. In surgical terms nothing too dramatic but my misfortune was compounded by collecting a bone infection during the operation (Staphylococcus Aureus), which gave me years of hell until it was detected and sorted (second op, metal out, long term intravenous antibiotics).

My answer is not really helpful to you, my fusion was a matter of necessity, but I would advise, unless absolutely necessary, keep out of hospitals, avoid any surgery, and keep doing what you are doing.

People poking around inside your body, drilling holes and whatnot, what could possibly go wrong?

PS I bet some tingling in my left leg, had it since the first op, hasn’t got any worse, hasn’t gone away. I can live with it.


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## roadrash (15 Dec 2019)

Proto said:


> but I would advise, unless absolutely necessary, keep out of hospitals, avoid any surgery, and keep doing what you are doing.
> 
> People poking around inside your body, drilling holes and whatnot, what could possibly go wrong?



couldn't put it better myself


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## kingrollo (16 Dec 2019)

Proto said:


> Yes, Me.
> 
> I managed to smash T12 (compression ‘burst’ fracture). Repair was internal fixation to stabilise with some great big wood screws, bone graft from my hip and fusion of T11, T12 and L1. In surgical terms nothing too dramatic but my misfortune was compounded by collecting a bone infection during the operation (Staphylococcus Aureus), which gave me years of hell until it was detected and sorted (second op, metal out, long term intravenous antibiotics).
> 
> ...



Don't get me wrong - I don't want surgery.

But non surgical options have failed. I already do Pilates and Yoga - and daily stretching. I just got my fitness to where I want to be - and now I sit here typing this with a hot water bottle attached my back ! 

With meds today my pain is little more than a niggle - should I take the general advice and begin some core exercises or should I just to stick to hot water bottles and meds.

It goes against everything I read - but I cant help thing cycling / gym has led to my back problems (suppose a cycling forum isn't the best place to air those thoughts !)


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## vickster (16 Dec 2019)

kingrollo said:


> Don't get me wrong - I don't want surgery.
> 
> But non surgical options have failed. I already do Pilates and Yoga - and daily stretching. I just got my fitness to where I want to be - and now I sit here typing this with a hot water bottle attached my back !
> 
> ...


Surely you're already working on your core if you do yoga and Pilates practice (daily?) Does the stretching also work your hamstrings, glutes, hip flexors etc which can cause lower back issues if tight or imbalanced? If you have an office job, make sure your set up and chair are right 

Have you had a full MRI on your neck and back recently to check the overall structure?


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## kingrollo (16 Dec 2019)

vickster said:


> Surely you're already working on your core if you do yoga and Pilates practice (daily?) Does the stretching also work your hamstrings, glutes, hip flexors etc which can cause lower back issues if tight or imbalanced? If you have an office job, make sure your set up and chair are right
> 
> Have you had a full MRI on your neck and back recently to check the overall structure?



What I meant was - I was in too much pain last week to do my exercises - now the pain is down to a niggle should I resume the core exercises today now 

MRI shows slight wear on L5/S1 disc and minor facet joint arthritis - I have been told these are normal or even good for a guy of my age - What I have been told in the past is that a minor bit of arthritis seems to be having a big impact. GP reckons its more muscles going into spasm which gives me the pain.

Neck - all clear on MRI.

my brother doesn't do any exercise and is 17 stone - doesn't have any of these issues ! I just wonder if I am pushing my body beyond its natural limits


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## vickster (16 Dec 2019)

kingrollo said:


> What I meant was - I was in too much pain last week to do my exercises - now the pain is down to a niggle should I resume the core exercises today now
> 
> MRI shows slight wear on L5/S1 disc and minor facet joint arthritis - I have been told these are normal or even good for a guy of my age - What I have been told in the past is that a minor bit of arthritis seems to be having a big impact. GP reckons its more muscles going into spasm which gives me the pain.
> 
> ...


Have you tried acupuncture when the muscles spasm (as well as a good sports massage regularly to back, shoulders, glutes, hamstrings, hips, painful when done properly but worth it)

Certainly avoid any major spinal surgery except as a last resort or in an emergency. I had a back op 25 years ago, all been okayish since but have had numbness in my left leg since the op. I saw a neurosurgeon last year as was having symptoms of slipped disc again, but all broadly ok on scan (normal for age, some degeneration in neck but v little scar tissue around op site, he was impressed by the job done all those years ago)!


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## kingrollo (16 Dec 2019)

vickster said:


> Have you tried acupuncture when the muscles spasm (as well as a good sports massage regularly)
> 
> Certainly avoid any major spinal surgery except as a last resort or in an emergency. I had a back op 25 years ago, all been okayish since but have had numbness in my left leg since the op. I saw a neurosurgeon last year as was having symptoms of slipped disc again, but all broadly ok on scan (normal for age, some degeneration in neck but v little scar tissue around op site, he was impressed by the job done all those years ago)!



Yes the acupuncture \ dry needling really helps .

I just can not comit to regular cycling/training because of these flare ups (3 this year) - I was looking for a permanent fix - I am guessing spinal fusion isn't that fix - I am not bad enough, it seems very risky - I suppose I wonder what treatments follow nerve ablation - but not as far down the line as spinal fusion.

I wonder if keep patching myself up - get back on bike gym /yoga / pilates - am I creating problems further down the line.

Or should I just accept 'patch and go' is how it is for me


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## Milkfloat (16 Dec 2019)

I spent a fair amount of money on IDD therapy in the effort to avoid surgery, it is basically being put on a computer controlled rack that stretches you. This provided immediate relief, but was not long lasting. In the end I went under the knife, but was able to avoid fusion. I was told that fusion may be necessary, but it really is a last resort. In the end spinal decompression, a discectomy and a laminectomy gave me my life back. Cycling prevents pain returning and even during my time in hell before the operation, cycling was the one relief (until I got off the bike)


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## vickster (16 Dec 2019)

Why would you be creating further problems down the line? Just avoid anything that might put undue stress on your lower back like lifting heavy weights, doing high impact aerobics etc

Have you discussed your situation / other options with a neurosurgeon (you may need to do this privately to get the time needed / see the 'right' person)? It may be that pain management as needed is the way to go (again, maybe see a specialist).

If there isn't a major or urgent structural issue for a surgeon to fix, then maintenance is the way to go. It's how athletes train after all

Everyone has wear and tear in their joints, it's a fact of ageing whatever the lifestyle (our skeletons aren't actually designed for 80 years of full on use)


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## kingrollo (16 Dec 2019)

vickster said:


> Why would you be creating further problems down the line? Just avoid anything that might put undue stress on your lower back like lifting heavy weights, doing high impact aerobics etc
> 
> Have you discussed your situation / other options with a neurosurgeon (you may need to do this privately to get the time needed / see the 'right' person)? It may be that pain management as needed is the way to go (again, maybe see a specialist).
> 
> ...



I think the above sums up where I am. I just get really frustrated and angry grrrrrrrrr !

I have an appointment with the guy who did my nerve ablation on Jan 2 - I will ask him of any other options

Why would a neurosurgeon help ? - Excuse my ignorance but I though they were people who operated on brains ?


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## vickster (16 Dec 2019)

kingrollo said:


> I think the above sums up where I am. I just get really frustrated and angry grrrrrrrrr !
> 
> I have an appointment with the guy who did my nerve ablation on Jan 2 - I will ask him of any other options
> 
> Why would a neurosurgeon help ? - Excuse my ignorance but I though they were people who operated on brains ?


Umm no they deal with nerves...there’s a big mass of them which run down through the spine!
Some neurosurgeons deal with brains but lots also specialise in spines.
They’re a bit less hammer and chisel than orthopaedic surgeons.
Was your ablation done by a pain specialist? (They’re usually anaesthetists or neurologists, the non surgical nerve Drs  )

NHS has info about treatments for mechanical back pain (which sounds like what the GP has disgnosed)
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/back-pain/treatment/

Another thing to bear in mind is that back pain is super common as we’re not actually designed to walk upright nor sit for long periods (as the surgeon told me years ago)


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## kingrollo (16 Dec 2019)

vickster said:


> Umm no they deal with nerves...there’s a big mass of them which run down through the spine!
> Some neurosurgeons deal with brains but lots also specialise in spines.
> They’re a bit less hammer and chisel than orthopaedic surgeons.
> Was your ablation done by a pain specialist? (They’re usually anaesthetists or neurologists, the non surgical nerve Drs  )
> ...



The abalation was done by a pain management specialist.

My private and NHS physio feel the problem is with my facet joints sticking - it been happening since my 20's - biggest help was the steriod jabs - and Yoga - but now I have reached 56, I can't have any more steriod jabs (NHS not funding) and I am not sure is yoga may actually make things worse.

Thank you for the links - most of those excercises are known to me - Will pop over to the gym and give myself a stretch.


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## vickster (16 Dec 2019)

kingrollo said:


> The abalation was done by a pain management specialist.
> 
> My private and NHS physio feel the problem is with my facet joints sticking - it been happening since my 20's - biggest help was the steriod jabs - and Yoga - but now I have reached 56, I can't have any more steriod jabs (NHS not funding) and I am not sure is yoga may actually make things worse.
> 
> Thank you for the links - most of those excercises are known to me - Will pop over to the gym and give myself a stretch.


You could have the injections privately? However, you can only have 3 into the same spot in your lifetime I believe as the steroid can destroy cartilage cells and tissue


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## kingrollo (16 Dec 2019)

vickster said:


> You could have the injections privately? However, you can only have 3 into the same spot in your lifetime I believe as the steroid can destroy cartilage cells and tissue



I can't afford them privately. I have had more than 3 already - I had no choice I was in total agony for 18 months in my mid 20's - only the jab would stop the pain.


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## roadrash (16 Dec 2019)

kingrollo said:


> My private and NHS physio feel the problem is with my facet joints sticking



have you discussed facetectomy surgery without a spinal fusion, I don't understand why you mention spinal fusion if the problem is with your facet joints
the facet joints often have osteophytes....a bony projection associated with the degeneration of cartilage at joints. which compress the nerve resulting in pain,


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## itboffin (20 Dec 2019)

I found myself facing this same choice about 4-5 years ago, after a couple of years of increasing neck pain I finally snapped and went private, luckily for me one of the spine world specialist happens to work not far away from me, anyway long story short I had an MRI which showed my C6 is completely crushed on one side and the nerves inflamed hence the pain that even stupid dosed of tramadol and codeine couldnt help.

The only long term option was for a replacement disc, a risky procedure where they go in through the throat to avoid the central nerve system as much as possible, aside from the huge scar this leaves there's still the risk of paralysis and or various nerve damage, this surgeon is or was one of the few people in the world to be able to perform this op and he was brutally honest with me about the risks and recovery.

What he did say is if you can change your lifestyle so as to postpone the procedure, do! for me as an IT office worker for the most part that was easy, what I hadn't realised just how many things in everyday life put stresses on your spine, needless to say the not lifting or carrying heavy things has been a problem and simple things like the way i have to sleep now i.e. flat with no pillows, not being able to cross my legs, anyway you get the point.

As many others have said consider all the options and really do your research.

I'm still living the modified life with a reminder from my body every now and again, I'm hoping if i leave it long enough this replacement procedure will be more common in the UK as it is in the USA, as i said I work in IT and i'm always happy to test new things but not when its on my body.

Good luck and speedy recovery.


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## rivers (23 Dec 2019)

My mother had a spinal fusion about 20 years ago. It left her permanently disabled and out of work until she passed away (unrelated). I'm not sure what exactly went wrong, but she lost feeling in her left leg, had a pump installed to deliver pain meds for pain management. She also had an electrical device installed to help with feeling in her leg. She was in near constant pain and had several surgeries in an attempt to fix what went wrong. Just be cautious and ask lots of questions. When it goes wrong, things can go very wrong.


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## DCBassman (10 Jan 2020)

Somehow missed this.
Fusion worked for me, L3/4/5, but uou have to really need it. And I'll go against the flow here - the guy who did it was ortho, he had to repair the mess that neuros had made earlier. But YMMV, as always.


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## jifdave (15 Jan 2020)

I just had a S1/L5 fusion on 16th December.
After many years of back pain I was finally diagnosed with a Pars defect causing spondylolithesis.

I finally gave in to surgery after my third spinal injection. The first two were great and lasted around 6 months, the third lasted just over a month.
I was out of bed walking within 5 hrs of surgery and have been well ahead of a standard recovery.
I was only in for 3 days.

I’m now a month post surgery and my recovery has only been walking several times a day averaging about 5 miles a day over 2/3 walks.
I’m fairly confident I could get back on the turbo today but have decided to wait until my first meeting with my consultant at the end of the month

if you have any questions feel free to DM me.


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## DCBassman (15 Jan 2020)

Just got date for my second fusion/decompression - 11 Feb. Joy.


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## kingrollo (16 Jan 2020)

DCBassman said:


> Just got date for my second fusion/decompression - 11 Feb. Joy.



good luck mate - not an op to take lightly - hope it has the desired results.


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## DCBassman (16 Jan 2020)

kingrollo said:


> good luck mate - not an op to take lightly - hope it has the desired results.


Thanks, me too...


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## roadrash (16 Jan 2020)

good luck , hope all goes well with op and recovery


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## kingrollo (16 Jan 2020)

DCBassman said:


> Thanks, me too...



Yes oh and BTW - we want pictures !


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## fossyant (16 Jan 2020)

kingrollo said:


> Yes oh and BTW - we want pictures !



Of the scars ! 

Best Wishes @DCBassman, scary stuff.


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## DCBassman (9 Feb 2020)

fossyant said:


> Of the scars !
> 
> Best Wishes @DCBassman, scary stuff.


At least I know what to expect, and have a great surgeon.


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## PJMC (15 Feb 2020)

I have chronic back issues and have recently discovered the joys of a TENS machine. Easy to use at home and seriously eliminates pain with a reasonable carry over effect. It’s an investment though, about $500 but for me, it’s been so worth it


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## roadrash (15 Feb 2020)

Glad a tens machine works for you, it worked for me in the early stages but became less effective as my spine went worse.


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