# Energy bill increases



## GuyBoden (3 Aug 2021)

I'm a bit shocked by the increase in Energy bills, I'm currently with OutFoxtheMarket, I need to renew dual fuel this month, but all the comparison sites are showing a big increase.


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## fossyant (3 Aug 2021)

I believe it's all up. Currently reeling from the winter bill as everyone was home working, and heating the conservatory and shed through winter. Was still cheaper than the fuel bills into work though. Keeping an eye on meter readings though.


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## ianrauk (3 Aug 2021)

Record high prices for energy
https://www.theguardian.com/busines...rs-could-go-bust-in-winter-as-gas-prices-rise


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## ebikeerwidnes (3 Aug 2021)

I think it is because the government/regulator has forced the companies to stop ramping up the prices for people who never switch so they can offer cheap deals to attract new people

Hence a large number of people they have been ripping off for years will get a nice drop in prices
but CLEARLY this cannot be allowed to affect their profits so prices for people who are on a good deal will go up to compensate

SOME PEOPLE are saying that JUST MAYBE some companies might increase some prices slightly more than necessary because there is a lot of stuff about prices going up - so if they go up a bit more than necessary they can just blame the regulator
but saying that would be cynical


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## Oldhippy (3 Aug 2021)

34 quid every month for electrickery. I make a point of meter reading beginning and end of month phoning them and paying. Their estimate bills are laughable.


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## Edwardoka (3 Aug 2021)

Oldhippy said:


> 34 quid every month for electrickery. I make a point of meter reading beginning and end of month phoning them and paying. Their estimate bills are laughable.


Can confirm, unless you have some form of smart meter, deemed reads are an absolute joke. At least for the company I used to work for, the algorithm for estimating was extremely flawed. If you're ever unlucky enough to change meter, company, or address without a confirmed read on the switchover date, your final bill is based entirely on flimflam.


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## presta (3 Aug 2021)

Edwardoka said:


> the algorithm for estimating was extremely flawed.


They deliberately overestimate your monthly direct debits so that you're in credit at the end of the year, because they don't want people to finish the year in arrears and then be lumbered with a huge final bill that they can't pay.


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## Edwardoka (3 Aug 2021)

presta said:


> They deliberately overestimate your monthly direct debits so that you're in credit at the end of the year, because they don't want people to finish the year in arrears and then be lumbered with a huge final bill that they can't pay.


That's the theory, sure, but the reality for the customers I dealt with was very different. People would supposedly build up a credit over the summer only for it to vanish in winter when their usage was much higher. Possibly my opinion of it is skewed by the fact that I worked in prepayment so by definition only dealt with customers for whom quarterly bills and direct debit had not worked out.

At least where I worked, people with arrears don't get final bills, because the original supplier puts in a debt objection with OFGEM that prevents the switch. The worst thing about that job was booking a warrant for installation of a prepayment meter for people who were already clearly in a bad place.


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## PaulSB (4 Aug 2021)

GuyBoden said:


> I'm a bit shocked by the increase in Energy bills, I'm currently with OutFoxtheMarket, I need to renew dual fuel this month, but all the comparison sites are showing a big increase.


I had a look at OFM a couple of years ago and didn't feel their claims to be the cheapest were valid.

My approach may seem a bit anal but it works. I have a very simple spreadsheet in which I enter annual usage, standing charge, unit charge and have columns were I can then quickly see the annual charge for each.

Every year I check the current offers using 2-3 comparison websites. I put the individual charges in to my spreadsheet and check the real cost rather than rely on the price comparison sites.

Currently I'm with People's Energy who I find competitive, 100% renewable electricity, good service and ethos. I submit meter readings monthly and the DD varies automatically, up and down, if necessary. We are getting smart meters tomorrow.

I would advise avoiding Tonik Energy. When I wanted to leave I couldn't get the refund I was due. Customer Service was non-existent and I eventually went to the Ombudsman who awarded me £100 plus my refund.

I'd also advise you not to use Look After My Bills. This is a shockingly appalling company with zero customer service. In my case after a general enquiry I was shifted to a new, more expensive supplier with no reference to me. A bunch of charlatans portraying themselves as one thing while acting in an opposite manner.


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## ebikeerwidnes (4 Aug 2021)

It would be nice if there was a site that showed the best deals from each company - by standing charge and cost per unit

Rather than asking how much I think I use - or what size house I live in - then working it all out for me

I would rather just have the basic costs and work the rest out myself and say how much they think I will save over a month or a year

Tried to get something sorted yesterday and it just told me nothing is cheaper than my current - and the cheapest they can find is over £20 a months dearer!!!!


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## GuyBoden (4 Aug 2021)

It's a mine field, so you have to tread carefully, there's a lot of hidden traps.


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## mistyoptic (2 Sep 2021)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> It would be nice if there was a site that showed the best deals from each company - by standing charge and cost per unit
> 
> Rather than asking how much I think I use - or what size house I live in - then working it all out for me
> 
> ...



There is a comparison site called Monva who seem to be trying to do it in a more "easy to compare" way. As I understand it they use AI to auto-complete your data and highlight key points to give you easier comparisons. No personal experience yet but it sounded worth a look when I'm ready


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## GuyBoden (19 Sep 2021)

Gas prices are getting higher and higher. A cold winter, will be an expensive winter in fuel bills.


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## Blue Hills (19 Sep 2021)

GuyBoden said:


> Gas prices are getting higher and higher. A cold winter, will be an expensive winter in fuel bills.


when will this feed through though? These increases are on wholesale prices aren't they?


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## GuyBoden (19 Sep 2021)

Blue Hills said:


> when will this feed through though? These increases are on wholesale prices aren't they?


Apparently, most companies buy Gas months in advance, so yes, at present, wholesale prices only. The UK still has 48% Gas from the North Sea, also Gas is imported by pipe from Norway.

"our largest single source of gas supply continues to be the UK Continental Shelf (approximately 48% of total supply in 2020), the maturity of that source means we have to supplement supply from international markets."

"We have a wide range of supply sources including direct pipelines across the North Sea from Norway to the UK, our single biggest source of imports."

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-gas-supply-explainer


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## vickster (19 Sep 2021)

Already gone up a lot this year


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## Blue Hills (19 Sep 2021)

Wholesale prices may of course impact on the suppliers - there was a news story on the beeb the other day expecting a few to go under next week. I hope mine - Octopus - manages to wave its tentacles and stay afloat.


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## bikingdad90 (19 Sep 2021)

My provider was a victim of the price increases and gone bust. I’ve put a switch request through to British Gas and locked my prices in until 23 as I fear prices will raise up even higher over the next 12 months. It’s costing me an extra £50pcm, I’m not happy as I was in a fixed rate until 22 with my now bust provider.


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## Dolorous Edd (19 Sep 2021)

bikingdad90 said:


> I’m not happy as I was in a fixed rate until 22 with my now bust provider.



It's probably because of their attractive fixed rate, that they are now bust. Energy contracts are a form of winner's curse

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winner's_curse


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## presta (19 Sep 2021)

My Shell fixed price contract ends this month, and I was surprised to find my cheapest option was to stay with Shell. I've fixed again until 2023, which cost 4.6% more than the variable rate option, but 73% more than the old one that's ending.


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## numbnuts (19 Sep 2021)

With all the rises in energy prices for some it's going to be a very cold winter it's a good job pensioner still have the winter fuel allowance for now................ but for how much longer


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## midlife (19 Sep 2021)

Daughters supplier just gone bust and has been transferred to British Gas. I expect the price will go up. There was somebody on the radio saying that energy prices could add £400 on average to energy bills


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## MichaelW2 (19 Sep 2021)

If you a left without a provider, will energy companies be competing with good deals for your custom, or are you fish in a barrel?
I switched from xxxx to Bulb. Before I left I asked xxxx if they wanted to make me an offer to stay. Different department. Now I get calls from xxxx offering me deals to switch back.


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## bikingdad90 (19 Sep 2021)

midlife said:


> Daughters supplier just gone bust and has been transferred to British Gas. I expect the price will go up. There was somebody on the radio saying that energy prices could add £400 on average to energy bills


Yep, that’s not far off what my increase is £50pcm. Going to be jumpers and blankets on to keep costs down and we are not exactly tight.

It is those on benefits I feel for who will be on prepay meters which are the most expensive form of payment and will be losing the £20 supplemental income they became used to living off. The additional NI costs for some will also put even more pressure on them.


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## midlife (19 Sep 2021)

MichaelW2 said:


> If you a left without a provider, will energy companies be competing with good deals for your custom, or are you fish in a barrel?
> I switched from xxxx to Bulb. Before I left I asked xxxx if they wanted to make me an offer to stay. Different department. Now I get calls from xxxx offering me deals to switch back.



I was reading in the BBC news that there used to be a bidding system for the players left in the market to pick up customers of the gone bust companies. I think there is now an allocation system where ofgem dole them out.


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## DCLane (19 Sep 2021)

Having been with Igloo for the past 3 years last week I moved suppliers, fixing the price for 2 years.


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## MrGrumpy (19 Sep 2021)

Should have locked in myself if I had been paying attention but you know it’s not the first thing that comes to mind. Anyway it was cheaper to stay put than to move providers. Just hope there is a correction in the markets but fear this is not going to happen . I’m going to be paying out an extra £70-80 a month for my energy. Can see my wood burner running a fair bit this winter !


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## midlife (19 Sep 2021)

MichaelW2 said:


> If you a left without a provider, will energy companies be competing with good deals for your custom, or are you fish in a barrel?
> I switched from xxxx to Bulb. Before I left I asked xxxx if they wanted to make me an offer to stay. Different department. Now I get calls from xxxx offering me deals to switch back.



Bulb are not in a good place... 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58619418


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## ianrauk (20 Sep 2021)

midlife said:


> Bulb are not in a good place...
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58619418


Just switched from Bulb to EDF with s 2 year deal for the same I was paying Bulb before they raised their prices. Shame, as I did like Bulb, they way they worked and their ethos.


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## Milkfloat (20 Sep 2021)

The press keep saying that customers won’t lose out if a company goes bust, but that is not true. As detailed above, if your company goes under you get moved to another one, but you lose the rate you were on, £50 extra a month is certainly losing out. The companies that go bust can operate for years creaming off the extra that a fixed rate generally costs, then as we see now when the energy price goes through the roof they can just fold. I would love to know the dividends that were taken during the good days.


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## Tenkaykev (20 Sep 2021)

The crazy thing is that they’re just billing companies. They don’t produce gas or maintain the pipelines or infrastructure, they are just billing companies set up to exploit a false market.


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## DaveReading (20 Sep 2021)

Milkfloat said:


> The companies that go bust can operate for years creaming off the extra that a fixed rate generally costs, then as we see now when the energy price goes through the roof they can just fold.



I'm guessing you've never run a company, if you think that "just" going bust is a desirable outcome.


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## Illaveago (20 Sep 2021)

I think the initial price rises were due to OPEC increasing the price of crude oil . They had decided that they weren't getting enough money and so cut production which raised the price . Electricity and Gas prices are linked to the price of crude oil and so have gone up .
It's the free market which is responsible !


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## MrGrumpy (20 Sep 2021)

Illaveago said:


> I think the initial price rises were due to OPEC increasing the price of crude oil . They had decided that they weren't getting enough money and so cut production which raised the price . Electricity and Gas prices are linked to the price of crude oil and so have gone up .
> It's the free market which is responsible !


It’s all closely linked , not helped by 5 Nuclear Power Stations going offline in France and the cable fire in Kent.
It’s like we don’t generate enough electricity in this country  . Whats happened to our own power industry?


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## numbnuts (20 Sep 2021)

The only people that get really hurt by all these rises are the poor


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## MrGrumpy (20 Sep 2021)

numbnuts said:


> The only people that get really hurt by all these rises are the poor


Indeed. It’s a hell of a jump in price . Seriously cannot see it dropping back down quick either. Coming into peak period for energy as well.


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## Tenkaykev (20 Sep 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> It’s all closely linked , not helped by 5 Nuclear Power Stations going offline in France and the cable fire in Kent.
> It’s like we don’t generate enough electricity in this country  . Whats happened to our own power industry?


It was sold to the highest bidder as that would promote competition and bring prices down…


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## midlife (20 Sep 2021)

Milkfloat said:


> The press keep saying that customers won’t lose out if a company goes bust, but that is not true. As detailed above, if your company goes under you get moved to another one, but you lose the rate you were on, £50 extra a month is certainly losing out. The companies that go bust can operate for years creaming off the extra that a fixed rate generally costs, then as we see now when the energy price goes through the roof they can just fold. I would love to know the dividends that were taken during the good days.



By losing out they mean that if you are in credit then that credit is not lost.


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## MrGrumpy (20 Sep 2021)

Tenkaykev said:


> It was sold to the highest bidder as that would promote competition and bring prices down…


That’s working out well……


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## Illaveago (20 Sep 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> It’s all closely linked , not helped by 5 Nuclear Power Stations going offline in France and the cable fire in Kent.
> It’s like we don’t generate enough electricity in this country  . Whats happened to our own power industry?


They have all be excited over the closure of coal fired power stations before they had anything to replace them .


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## Brandane (20 Sep 2021)

Currently happy with the deal I have with Octopus energy, but as they are relatively small I guess they might be one of the suppliers about to go under. I hope not. Especially if I end up being passed on to NPower or Scottish Power. I swore blind, years ago, that neither of those companies would get another penny from me!


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## Blue Hills (20 Sep 2021)

Brandane said:


> Currently happy with the deal I have with Octopus energy, but as they are relatively small I guess they might be one of the suppliers about to go under. I hope not. Especially if I end up being passed on to NPower or Scottish Power. I swore blind, years ago, that neither of those companies would get another penny from me!


Boss of octopus was on telly this morning. hope they are ok - I'm with Octopus - agree about npower - do they still exist or have they changed their name to try to wipe the slate clean on their dazzling incompetence?


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## vickster (20 Sep 2021)

I was with GNE who went bust and was transferred to EDF on the GNE tariff which is ending this month. I was looking at Octopus. Their estimate is that variable rate currently would be £20 less than a fixed (£66 vs £86), am low user, they haven’t yet raised their variable rates, but guess it will go up but 25%?
decisions…
I’ll also need to see what EDF estimate on the offered tariff


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## numbnuts (20 Sep 2021)

npower is now E.ON


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## vickster (20 Sep 2021)

Just looked at EDF… currently £56


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## Brandane (20 Sep 2021)

numbnuts said:


> npower is now E.ON


Are they still incompetent morons who think you want to bank with them, rather than just buy energy?


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## Arrowfoot (20 Sep 2021)

Enron once a respected US energy giant, entered the then newly deregulated US energy market and bet huge on price movements in the 1990s. It bet wrong and the eventually carried out fraudulent accounting. 3 years later it collapsed and took well known accounting and audit giant Arthur Andersen with it. 

Yet they insist on deregulating this important sector knowing some will go to the wall and one has already collapsed.


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## Tenkaykev (20 Sep 2021)

E.ON is now German owned, Scottish Power is now Spanish owned. EDF is French owned. So the profits that would once have gone back into the UK economy is now helping to subsidise utility bills elsewhere. That’s much like the Rail infrastructure which now receives three times the government subsidies in real terms than British Rail did. As promised by the politicians at the time, privatisation has worked to the advantage of the customer with the market bringing us some of the lowest priced energy and rail fares in Europe. Oh, hang on a minute…
https://www.uswitch.com/gas-electricity/guides/which-energy-suppliers-are-british/


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## mjr (20 Sep 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> It’s all closely linked , not helped by 5 Nuclear Power Stations going offline in France and the cable fire in Kent.
> It’s like we don’t generate enough electricity in this country  . Whats happened to our own power industry?


I feel that effectively banning or at least discouraging a load of on-shore renewables and microgeneration, combined with understandable dithering on nuclear and bizarre incentives to bring old gas generation stations back online (which now looks like it was a bad idea as gas prices rise), has left the UK in a rather weak position.

After the recent collapse of the passenger train "market", another of the dodgy markets from the Thatcher-Lawson Agenda is failing. Will they take the same solution and start a Great British Energy service? Can gov.uk afford to? And which 1980s/90s market will collapse next?


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## MrGrumpy (20 Sep 2021)

Tenkaykev said:


> E.ON is now German owned, Scottish Power is now Spanish owned. EDF is French owned. So the profits that would once have gone back into the UK economy is now helping to subsidise utility bills elsewhere. That’s much like the Rail infrastructure which now receives three times the government subsidies in real terms than British Rail did. As promised by the politicians at the time, privatisation has worked to the advantage of the customer with the market bringing us some of the lowest priced energy and rail fares in Europe. Oh, hang on a minute…
> https://www.uswitch.com/gas-electricity/guides/which-energy-suppliers-are-british/


Yep back in the days where they sold of every bleeding thing! Privatised to stimulate competition?? My @rse !!


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## ebikeerwidnes (20 Sep 2021)

I was with GNE - got switched to EDF when GNE went bust.
The deal with EDF was great -- if anything slightly better than with GNE - but it ends soon
I was previously with Bulb and then Octopus and I was very impressed with both of them. I have looked at switching back to them but the prices were a lot higher than the one EDF offered
And then this thing comes along saying the smaller companies could go bust - in which case I would worry about getting given to one of the dodgier companies - and also getting dumped onto a very ungreen tarriff - at least the EDF one is zero carbon evenif a lot of it is Nuclear.

SO I'm staying on EDF until the fixed thing runs out and see what is available then


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## classic33 (20 Sep 2021)

It's the fault of the customers.
_"One suggestion is for the formation of a “bad bank” which would take on lossmaking customers from failed suppliers, in a move reminiscent of the peak of the financial crisis in 2008, and which would be designed to avoid weakening otherwise strong companies."_
https://www.irishtimes.com/business...ment-bad-bank-to-weather-gas-crisis-1.4678235


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## Electric_Andy (20 Sep 2021)

I was with Utility Point, and was something like £180 in credit. I had an e-mail from them to say they have ceased trading. I then got an e-mail from "we look after your bills" who said they'll switch me to the best deal as soon as possible but my supply will not be cut off. I just hope that my credit is still transferable to the new supplier (which WLAYB said it would be).


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## Electric_Andy (20 Sep 2021)

Electric_Andy said:


> I was with Utility Point, and was something like £180 in credit. I had an e-mail from them to say they have ceased trading. I then got an e-mail from "we look after your bills" who said they'll switch me to the best deal as soon as possible but my supply will not be cut off. I just hope that my credit is still transferable to the new supplier (which WLAYB said it would be).


Saying that, I think I should have cashed in my credit when the contract re-newed again. So at least it would have been in my bank than in there's


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## Electric_Andy (20 Sep 2021)

Electric_Andy said:


> Saying that, I think I should have cashed in my credit when the contract re-newed again. So at least it would have been in my bank than in there's


ok, for anyone in the same situation, I've just checked and ofgem have said my balance (credit) will be protected. EDF are taking over Utility Point customers so I will be transferred to them and retain my balance


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## Dolorous Edd (20 Sep 2021)

Tenkaykev said:


> E.ON is now German owned, Scottish Power is now Spanish owned. EDF is French owned. So the profits that would once have gone back into the UK economy is now helping to subsidise utility bills elsewhere. That’s much like the Rail infrastructure which now receives three times the government subsidies in real terms than British Rail did.



Rail infrastructure has been owned and run by the UK government since 2002


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## presta (20 Sep 2021)

This doesn't look particularly reassuring:





The Energy Current - key insights into GB and European power markets (lcp.uk.com)


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## Milkfloat (20 Sep 2021)

DaveReading said:


> I'm guessing you've never run a company, if you think that "just" going bust is a desirable outcome.


Quite a few companies are run this way - get what you can out of it and walk away when your scheme collapses, not just in the small scale, but hedge funds do very similar, albeit leaving another company to actually go through the collapse.


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## Milkfloat (20 Sep 2021)

midlife said:


> By losing out they mean that if you are in credit then that credit is not lost.


No I mean the terms of the deal you are on - as I understand it you get moved to the standard tariff of the new supplier.


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## mjr (20 Sep 2021)

Dolorous Edd said:


> Rail infrastructure has been owned and run by the UK government since 2002


Also, Crossrail and HS2 distort the picture compared with the five pre-privatisation years to 1992 where I think the biggest projects were Thameslink — more a reopening than new construction — and some electrification and modernisation works on existing lines.


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## JtB (20 Sep 2021)

My energy prices are fixed until May, however my energy supplier seems to be one of the small energy suppliers under the spotlight, so currently keeping my fingers crossed that I won’t end up with a huge hike in my gas bill over the next few weeks.

I notice Octopus Energy (mentioned previously in this thread) are one of the energy suppliers who have already confirmed that they are safe.


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## MrGrumpy (20 Sep 2021)

presta said:


> This doesn't look particularly reassuring:
> View attachment 610129
> 
> The Energy Current - key insights into GB and European power markets (lcp.uk.com)



so are the UK paying through the nose for energy here ?


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## PaulSB (21 Sep 2021)

Electric_Andy said:


> I was with Utility Point, and was something like £180 in credit. I had an e-mail from them to say they have ceased trading. I then got an e-mail from "we look after your bills" who said they'll switch me to the best deal as soon as possible but my supply will not be cut off. I just hope that my credit is still transferable to the new supplier (which WLAYB said it would be).


My advice would be to ditch Look After My Bills as soon as possible. My experience is the company is an utter shambles run by a bunch of charlatans. Don't go near them.


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## PK99 (21 Sep 2021)

The usual maxim:

If a deal looks too good to be true, it probably is.

Looks very apt for current events.


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## Blue Hills (21 Sep 2021)

PaulSB said:


> My advice would be to ditch Look After My Bills as soon as possible. My experience is the company is an utter shambles run by a bunch of charlatans. Don't go near them.


I was always suspicious about such things, but can you say more?


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## PaulSB (21 Sep 2021)

Blue Hills said:


> I was always suspicious about such things, but can you say more?


Yes. LAMB was founded by two partners who took the idea to the Dragon's Den and received funding from two of the dragons. Something like 12 months later the company was bought out by GoCompare in 2019 realising a substantial profit for the founders and the dragons. No problem this is how it works.

I used their Facebook page two years ago when I was looking to switch energy supplier. I went through the process but didn't receive any offers, comparisons etc. until I received an email from an energy company, I forget which one, thanking me for switching to them and confirming my direct debit had been set up. The new cost was significantly higher than the quote I had from elsewhere.

I cancelled the direct debit and the new company happily switched me back to my previous one. LAMB made the switch without contacting me, handed over my bank details without authorisation and provided me with no opportunity to review the offers available to me. I made numerous attempts to contact LAMB all of which resulted in nothing other than a standard response from Customer Services asking if I would like to switch!!!!! I left a few detailed, accurate reviews on their FB page and even this stimulated no response.

LAMB is GoCompare under another name with consequence a business set up to customers switch is doing far from this.


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## Electric_Andy (21 Sep 2021)

PaulSB said:


> My advice would be to ditch Look After My Bills as soon as possible. My experience is the company is an utter shambles run by a bunch of charlatans. Don't go near them.


That's a shame. I've never had anything but prompt and efficient service from them. I will stick with them for now. The first year I used them, I saved £12/month on the year before. When that came to an end, they said my current supplier was still cheapest so I stayed with them. I've always had an e-mail to say what they are doing, and if I don't want to switch then to contact them and stop it. Granted, had I not wanted to switch and tried to contact them, who knows if I'd have got through. But until they annoy me I will keep letting them do the legwork


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## MrGrumpy (21 Sep 2021)

not sure I’m keen on handing over my bank details for someone to move me around on my behalf ? However I’m sure it works well.


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## mjr (21 Sep 2021)

PaulSB said:


> Currently I'm with People's Energy who I find competitive, 100% renewable electricity, good service and ethos. I submit meter readings monthly and the DD varies automatically, up and down, if necessary. We are getting smart meters tomorrow.


So now you're with British Gas, then? Did the bankrupt transfer go OK?


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## PaulSB (21 Sep 2021)

mjr said:


> So now you're with British Gas, then? Did the bankrupt transfer go OK?


To date it has been very smooth. I received an email from BG this morning telling me of the transfer, that I would receive tariff details over the next days, no exit penalties, free to switch later, credit balance is protected.

All very simple and efficient.


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## JtB (21 Sep 2021)

From now on I’m downloading each monthly energy statement so I have evidence of how much energy I’ve used, my payments and my balance (just in case).


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## JtB (22 Sep 2021)

JtB said:


> From now on I’m downloading each monthly energy statement so I have evidence of how much energy I’ve used, my payments and my balance (just in case).


I’m glad I downloaded all this year’s energy statements yesterday because my energy supplier (Avro Energy) has just gone bust and their website seems to have disappeared.


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## DaveReading (22 Sep 2021)

We renewed with Avro just a couple of weeks ago, and I've been waiting daily since then for the announcement that they'd gone under ...


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## The Central Scrutinizer (23 Sep 2021)

I was with Octopus Energy up until august this year and was happy with them.Very good customer service but when when i got my renewal price they had upped it to forty pounds PM more.
Although Avro Energy had mixed reviews there prices were quite a bit cheaper than Octopus Energy so i went with them.
'Hindsight is a wonderful thing'


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## jowwy (24 Sep 2021)

im with E-on...prices fixed for another 12mths, so im good at the moment, maybe by then all these shortages and price increases may have settled or gone away


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## The Central Scrutinizer (14 Dec 2021)

Has anybody who were switched over to another utility company because their original went bust been fully intergrated?
I was switched over to octopus when avro went bust and although octopus have kept us up to date on their website it still seems it taking longer than i imagined.


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## Bike Tyson (14 Dec 2021)

The Central Scrutinizer said:


> Has anybody who were switched over to another utility company because their original went bust been fully intergrated?
> I was switched over to octopus when avro went bust and although octopus have kept us up to date on their website it still seems it taking longer than i imagined.



Igloo to EON here, Took 8 weeks to get my Igloo balance back and everything set up, I cancelled my direct debit before Igloo went bust but customers who kept paying are still waiting on refunds.


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## Tenkaykev (14 Dec 2021)

Avro to Octopus here. All went through efficiently, my meter readings are showing on the Octopus web site and my positive balance transferred across without a hitch. I’ve not set up a DD yet as I had quite a high positive balance ( £400+ ) so I’ll run it down a bit first.


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## mjr (14 Dec 2021)

Tenkaykev said:


> Avro to Octopus here. All went through efficiently, my meter readings are showing on the Octopus web site and my positive balance transferred across without a hitch. I’ve not set up a DD yet as I had quite a high positive balance ( £400+ ) so I’ll run it down a bit first.


I remember hearing something from Martin Lewis on the radio that if you don't set up a Direct Debit then the supplier can put you on a non-DD plan which generally costs more... so if I were you, I'd set up a DD for £1 or something that will still run the balance down but show willing.

I'm surprised your transfer went so quickly. Coop Energy subcontracted to Octopus years ago and it's still a rather clunky Frankenstein operation, with current Coop Energy price plans not easily viewable from the Octopus account area.


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## DaveReading (14 Dec 2021)

Avro to Octopus here - no bills yet despite having submitted a few readings.


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## oldwheels (14 Dec 2021)

Bike Tyson said:


> Igloo to EON here, Took 8 weeks to get my Igloo balance back and everything set up, I cancelled my direct debit before Igloo went bust but customers who kept paying are still waiting on refunds.


Any money paid after the company went bust is unlikely to be refunded in my experience. The liquidator simply takes everything. The law is different in Scotland from that in England I paid money to a company in England and was point blank refused a refund and not worth taking it to court. I also lost a watch in for repair as they just junked everything. In addition I worked for a company which went bust and was retained by the liquidator to keep some continuity. Shower of crooks in my opinion.


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## Bike Tyson (14 Dec 2021)

oldwheels said:


> Any money paid after the company went bust is unlikely to be refunded in my experience. The liquidator simply takes everything. The law is different in Scotland from that in England I paid money to a company in England and was point blank refused a refund and not worth taking it to court. I also lost a watch in for repair as they just junked everything. In addition I worked for a company which went bust and was retained by the liquidator to keep some continuity. Shower of crooks in my opinion.



Eon actually told Igloo customers to not cancel the DD to Igloo after they went bust, seemed strange to me paying a DD to a bankrupt company.


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## oldwheels (14 Dec 2021)

Bike Tyson said:


> Eon actually told Igloo customers to not cancel the DD to Igloo after they went bust, seemed strange to me paying a DD to a bankrupt company.


Seems a bit odd right enough.
In addition to my other remarks we were invoiced for goods ordered but never received. Told them to get lost and they gave in eventually as not worth the fight. A bigger company might well have paid as some were downright inefficient in reconciling goods received or not with invoices. Fake invoices were rife at one time particularly for office supplies.


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## Bike Tyson (14 Dec 2021)

oldwheels said:


> Seems a bit odd right enough.
> In addition to my other remarks we were invoiced for goods ordered but never received. Told them to get lost and they gave in eventually as not worth the fight. A bigger company might well have paid as some were downright inefficient in reconciling goods received or not with invoices. Fake invoices were rife at one time particularly for office supplies.



There was a guy in the news recently who made millions sending fake invoices to one of the big tech companies, they just paid up.


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## Tenkaykev (14 Dec 2021)

mjr said:


> I remember hearing something from Martin Lewis on the radio that if you don't set up a Direct Debit then the supplier can put you on a non-DD plan which generally costs more... so if I were you, I'd set up a DD for £1 or something that will still run the balance down but show willing.
> 
> I'm surprised your transfer went so quickly. Coop Energy subcontracted to Octopus years ago and it's still a rather clunky Frankenstein operation, with current Coop Energy price plans not easily viewable from the Octopus account area.


When I was originally contacted by Octopus they stated that I'd be put on to the


mjr said:


> I remember hearing something from Martin Lewis on the radio that if you don't set up a Direct Debit then the supplier can put you on a non-DD plan which generally costs more... so if I were you, I'd set up a DD for £1 or something that will still run the balance down but show willing.
> 
> I'm surprised your transfer went so quickly. Coop Energy subcontracted to Octopus years ago and it's still a rather clunky Frankenstein operation, with current Coop Energy price plans not easily viewable from the Octopus account area.


I just checked back and I was notified on 20th October that the transfer process was under way and I would be on the " Flexible Avro " Tariff ( E: 24.11 ppd, 20.49 per KW/H, G: 26.11 ppd, 4.13 per KW/H )
I can log in and see a history of all emails that I have received from Octopus, and the final statement from Avro plus the meter readings that I've submitted. 
The communications and explanations that I've received during the transfer process have been exemplary.


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## mjr (14 Dec 2021)

Tenkaykev said:


> When I was originally contacted by Octopus they stated that I'd be put on to the
> 
> I just checked back and I was notified on 20th October that the transfer process was under way and I would be on the " Flexible Avro " Tariff ( E: 24.11 ppd, 20.49 per KW/H, G: 26.11 ppd, 4.13 per KW/H )
> I can log in and see a history of all emails that I have received from Octopus, and the final statement from Avro plus the meter readings that I've submitted.
> The communications and explanations that I've received during the transfer process have been exemplary.


It says on https://octopus.energy/avro/ that they'll take over your Avro DD anyway, so my worry was unfounded.


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## Tenkaykev (14 Dec 2021)

mjr said:


> It says on https://octopus.energy/avro/ that they'll take over your Avro DD anyway, so my worry was unfounded.


They haven't on my account. I've had a couple of emails telling me that I can set up a DD, but there are no active DD's on my account. During the initial transition Avro did take the usual DD payment but the money taken was added to my balance that transferred across.


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## ebikeerwidnes (14 Dec 2021)

I was moved from GNE to EDF - GNE were pretty much the first to go

the transfer took months and months - for quite a while I was still paying GNE but apparently the money was filtered to EDF

The DD was moved with no action on my part - which seems strange but worked well and was convenient

I seem to think it took nearly 6 months before I was fully over to EDF

(additional note - EDF were very good in the meantime - kept the rate the same - or even lower - than GNE had )


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## The Central Scrutinizer (14 Dec 2021)

Tenkaykev said:


> Avro to Octopus here. All went through efficiently, my meter readings are showing on the Octopus web site and my positive balance transferred across without a hitch. I’ve not set up a DD yet as I had quite a high positive balance ( £400+ ) so I’ll run it down a bit first.


How long ago was that?


DaveReading said:


> Avro to Octopus here - no bills yet despite having submitted a few readings.


Same here.
I was only with Avro Energy for about a month,before that i was with guess who...octopus! so i've still got my old online password for the account.


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## Bazzer (14 Dec 2021)

Avro to Octopus here. 
The final bill for Avro was issued the other day, which is odd as I contacted Octopus to say I had the final meter readings and they responded to say they would ask for them in due course. - Which they haven't. But I'll have a look at the Octopus email in more detail later in the week when I'm doing all the other paperwork crap.


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## gavroche (14 Dec 2021)

When it comes to energy bills, the way things are, I don't think shopping around will make much difference. It will still be expensive. I am with Octopus and have no plans to change.


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## Tenkaykev (14 Dec 2021)

The Central Scrutinizer said:


> How long ago was that?
> 
> Same here.
> I was only with Avro Energy for about a month, before that i was with guess who...octopus! so i've still got my old online password for the account.


Just looking and there's an entry in my Octopus account that says :

25 SEP
SOLR balance transfer We credited your account £346.67


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## Bike Tyson (15 Dec 2021)

gavroche said:


> When it comes to energy bills, the way things are, I don't think shopping around will make much difference. It will still be expensive. I am with Octopus and have no plans to change.



I think it is only the default rate tariffs that are covered by the price cap so moving to even the cheapest fixed tariff will cost more, if anyones fixed rate is running out I think the best course of action is do nothing and get put on the default rate.


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## mjr (15 Dec 2021)

Bike Tyson said:


> I think it is only the default rate tariffs that are covered by the price cap so moving to even the cheapest fixed tariff will cost more, if anyones fixed rate is running out I think the best course of action is do nothing and get put on the default rate.


Yes, cheapest fixed plan was £84 more expensive the last time I looked. The uncertainty is how much variable plans will increase in April and whether they will then fall enough by the end of the one year fix to be cheaper than fixing. There's a small uncertainty whether the provider goes bust and dumps you back on a variable plan before you save anything. And I've not read the small print.


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## The Central Scrutinizer (15 Dec 2021)

Spoke to Octopus today and they reckon they are 85% through switching Avro customers over to them.


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## johnnyb47 (3 Feb 2022)

Well after today's anouncment that our heating bills will sky rocket by around £700 I will be using the turbo trainer in the kitchen just to keep warm. Also the spare sofa will get chopped up for fire wood.
Seriously though, this is going to cause huge problems for a lot of people


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## numbnuts (3 Feb 2022)

I turned my heating off in November and turned the water temperature down, extra blanket on bed and warm clothes during the day - sorted


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## fossyant (3 Feb 2022)

It's going to cause lots of issues for many folk. Also mortgage rates going up (thank god mine is paid off). Fortunately we're going to be in the office more now, so the heating/electric will come down. I''m closely monitoring electric costs - about time those leccy car drivers paid the going rate TBH. My gas costs are low.


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## MrGrumpy (3 Feb 2022)

Think my app maybe wrong but I’m in credit by large lump on my gas ?? Strange , they did yank up my DD as well back in September. Leccy is £100 off in credit , gas £400 odd


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## ebikeerwidnes (3 Feb 2022)

Everything is hitting the poorer people at the moment
We are dead lucky that we are OK and have a fair amount of head room if we need it but I worried about other people I know because of mortgages and energy on top of inflation being 7%+


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## Milkfloat (3 Feb 2022)

£68 per household extra on your bill to pay for the Exec's holidays and bonuses of the failed companies


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## cyberknight (3 Feb 2022)

i need to save my kidney in case ini ck1 needs it, things look bleak i wonder if i have any other body parts i can sell ?


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## mjr (3 Feb 2022)

28p/kWh, says 
View: https://mobile.twitter.com/AshleyRowthorn/status/1489195604504891396


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## iluvmybike (3 Feb 2022)

numbnuts said:


> I turned my heating off in November and turned the water temperature down, extra blanket on bed and warm clothes during the day - sorted


You are fortuate to be able to do that. We have a 90 yr old bed-bound and very, very frail mother with dementia - the house has to be kept warm for her and hot water on tap for all her laundry requirements - no choice for her. I dread to think what her bills will be now


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## Mburton1993 (3 Feb 2022)

Right now I'm paying £55 direct debit to Ovo Energy a month and have credit of £199 built up. I wonder how long that'll last.


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## Ming the Merciless (3 Feb 2022)

Mburton1993 said:


> Right now I'm paying £55 direct debit to Ovo Energy a month and have credit of £199 built up. I wonder how long that'll last.



Don’t forget it won’t kick in till April when your energy usage will have dropped significantly anyway. Won’t be till next winter you really feel it.


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## iluvmybike (3 Feb 2022)

Mburton1993 said:


> Right now I'm paying £55 direct debit to Ovo Energy a month and have credit of £199 built up. I wonder how long that'll last.


Your monthly payment will be double so a couple of months then


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## johnnyb47 (3 Feb 2022)

Time to stick that magnet back on the meter wheel again 🤔


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## mjr (3 Feb 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Don’t forget it won’t kick in till April when your energy usage will have dropped significantly anyway. Won’t be till next winter you really feel it.


After another increase in October...

Better to spend the summer analysing things with tools like emonpi and making improvements... if you have the money or can get it.

And if I write more, I'll be sent to the NACAs yard.


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## Milkfloat (3 Feb 2022)

I currently pay 16.08p per kWh for Electric and 2.76p for gas. The jump to 28p and 7p will be big.


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## mjr (3 Feb 2022)

Milkfloat said:


> I currently pay 16.08p per kWh for Electric and 2.76p for gas. The jump to 28p and 7p will be big.


That's a 75% increase on your electricity and a 153% increase on your gas.


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## DCLane (3 Feb 2022)

I'm very relieved we fixed our energy prices for 2 years last September whilst it was much cheaper.


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## presta (3 Feb 2022)

DCLane said:


> I'm very relieved we fixed our energy prices for 2 years last September whilst it was much cheaper.


Yes I fixed mine with Shell last September, IIRC is was only about another £50 over a variable rate tariff. Unusually and conveniently, the cheapest option was to stick with my existing supplier, but it was still a 73% price hike.


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## ianrauk (3 Feb 2022)

DCLane said:


> I'm very relieved we fixed our energy prices for 2 years last September whilst it was much cheaper.


Did the same in October. Bulb raised their prices quite a bit so switched to a 2 year fixed with EDF.


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## Milkfloat (4 Feb 2022)

mjr said:


> That's a 75% increase on your electricity and a 153% increase on your gas.


You should see the jump if I wanted to stay on a fixed rate.


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## Illaveago (4 Feb 2022)

The price increases aren't going to help anyone . It will hit manufacturing and retail who will then have to raise their prices , inflation will go up , the Bank of England will raise interest rates and it will all go round again !


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## Saluki (4 Feb 2022)

Technically I am still with bulb. It’s definitely more. However, I am moving next month - fingers crossed the other mutual exchange tenant doesn’t change his mind - and will have a house either side of me. I just don’t have my heating over 14 degrees and wear jumpers. I can’t afford 14 degrees so thermostat is set to 11 so the dogs don’t freeze solid while I am at work.

At home I have my running leggings under my jeans or joggies, big fleece hoodie, wrist warmers and a buff and we basically enclose ourselves in the bedroom as it warms up with me, 2 greyhounds and a duvet. I have a little TV in there so we watch tv, read etc.
Living solo is expensive as there is nobody with whom to share the rent, bills and whatnot. I suggested it when I was dating that guy, ages ago, but after 2 years of dating he did not want to cohabit as his council tax would go up. I decided that being single was more expensive but better for my mental health. Financially, I am finding it difficult but I can shower at work now and use the microwaves for a daily hot meal 🙂


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## mjr (4 Feb 2022)

Saluki said:


> I just don’t have my heating over 14 degrees and wear jumpers.


Yikes! I'd not be able to do that because one of my illness is limiting how cold I can have the house right now... and I'm not that bad, so have it set to 18 or similar during the day while I'm moving about. Some of the people really up against it are those with illnesses where they are at home a lot but also cannot let it get below 20 (which I think is what's shown on those "Warm and Well" leaflets from the GP surgery).

For an illustration of how farked the electricity retail market is, here's a look at the "Octopus Agile" tariff (which I'm not on, but I have an app that compares it to mine). It varies its retail price in 15-minute intervals based on the wholesale price. It's spending almost all the time pinned at its maximum and has rarely fallen below the new 28p/kWh price cap, except at night during the Xmas/NY holiday and all-day except 4-7pm on Bank Holiday Monday 3 January. Here's the last two months (the most I can see), with the red line and leftmost scale showing the agile price in p/kWh:


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## Saluki (4 Feb 2022)

I have asthma. If I have my hood up, the air around, in the big hood, is warmer. I think. 
Heat is an invisible expense to me.


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## Ming the Merciless (4 Feb 2022)

A blanket and hot water bottle can also help if you need to keep any heating as low as possible.


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## fossyant (4 Feb 2022)

I think I'd be dead if I suggested the 'boss' wears an extra jumper and a hot water bottle ! when I'm working in the conservatory, she comes in and switches on the fan heater, in addition to the oil radiator - she's in the house with central heating. I am dressing accordingly for the conservatory, a nice warm jumper and winter walking trousers.

We have noticed though, by boarding the last half of the attic, it's made a huge difference to heat in the bedrooms.


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## ebikeerwidnes (4 Feb 2022)

fossyant said:


> I think I'd be dead if I suggested the 'boss' wears an extra jumper and a hot water bottle !


Yup - I tried that

didn;t go well!


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## mjr (4 Feb 2022)

fossyant said:


> I think I'd be dead if I suggested the 'boss' wears an extra jumper and a hot water bottle ! when I'm working in the conservatory, she comes in and switches on the fan heater, in addition to the oil radiator - she's in the house with central heating. I am dressing accordingly for the conservatory, a nice warm jumper and winter walking trousers.
> 
> We have noticed though, by boarding the last half of the attic, it's made a huge difference to heat in the bedrooms.


Why not just check that she's happy to pay extra to the energy giants not to put a jumper on, instead of making suggestions that apparently come from nowhere?


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## gavroche (4 Feb 2022)

Our thermostat is never set higher than 18 degrees and radiators turned off in rooms we don't use much including our bedroom. Neither of us like a warm bedroom. 
We don't use CH on a timer either but manually when needed. 
Lights on only in the room we are in. 
Can't see what more we can do to be fair.


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## The Central Scrutinizer (4 Feb 2022)

When Octopus Energy sent me their renewal for a fixed rate for two years in early august it had gone up £45pm to what i was paying so i jumped ship and went to Avro Energy who then went bust and hey ho i was back with octopus except now i was on their flexible tariff.
Last summer there was no hint that utility bills would go sky high and if i had an inkling i would have stayed with Octopus........Gutted!


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## mjr (4 Feb 2022)

gavroche said:


> Our thermostat is never set higher than 18 degrees and radiators turned off in rooms we don't use much including our bedroom. Neither of us like a warm bedroom.
> We don't use CH on a timer either but manually when needed.
> Lights on only in the room we are in.
> Can't see what more we can do to be fair.


More insulation?
Lower CH radiator temperatures?
Predictive weather-compensating radiator temperature control instead of reactive on/off thermostats?
Solar thermal and PV?
More efficient CH system?

Of course, some of those may not pay back in any sensible time, even with the next year of high prices.

And is your thermostat accurate? Lots of old ones are out by a degree or more, or sited in a place that is colder than the areas people actually use, but that does allow a good bit of "well we only have the thermostat set to..." bragging.


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## ebikeerwidnes (4 Feb 2022)

The position of your thermostat is critical

Ours used to be in the hall - which is normally quite cold
When I replaced the boiler I moved it into the lounge - after all I only really care about lounge temperature
WHne it was in the hall it could be set to 17/18 and the lounge would be far warmer because the hall has the stairs so all the heat goes upwards to the landing
The lounge is far warmer - so the thermostat is set much higher - but the hall is colder - but no-one cares about the hall


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## MrGrumpy (4 Feb 2022)

I have one of those Nest thermostats, last winter I had it set to 21c in the evenings and then to 19c through the day. However autumn last year when energy prices had gone up it’s been dropped and locked at a maximum off 18.5c . Also showed my boys what I’m paying a month as they seemed oblivious to energy costs and my moans and groans . 

Can we afford a price rise yes we can but I’m not for wasting money either. It’s going to hit some folk really hard this is .


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## Ming the Merciless (4 Feb 2022)

fossyant said:


> I think I'd be dead if I suggested the 'boss' wears an extra jumper and a hot water bottle ! when I'm working in the conservatory, she comes in and switches on the fan heater, in addition to the oil radiator - she's in the house with central heating. I am dressing accordingly for the conservatory, a nice warm jumper and winter walking trousers.
> 
> We have noticed though, by boarding the last half of the attic, it's made a huge difference to heat in the bedrooms.



Have you asked her to put some clothes on, once it gets past 7am?


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## johnnyb47 (4 Feb 2022)

What would your average yearly gas/electric be.
Mines around £1000
The heating is only used during the winter evenings and everything is off whilst I'm at work. The tv is left on standby (tut tut) as well as the microwave. Obviously the fridge freezer is left on but everything else is unplugged.
The only thing I could do to keep my bills down during these expensive times is to lower the thermostat a few degrees.
As for cooking I never use gas oven as it seems over kill using such a large thing for a small meal for one. I use a small halogen cooker instead


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## cyberknight (4 Feb 2022)

johnnyb47 said:


> What would your average yearly gas/electric be.
> Mines around £1000
> The heating is only used during the winter evenings and everything is off whilst I'm at work. The tv is left on standby (tut tut) as well as the microwave. Obviously the fridge freezer is left on but everything else is unplugged.
> The only thing I could do to keep my bills down during these expensive times is to lower the thermostat a few degrees.
> As for cooking I never use gas oven as it seems over kill using such a large thing for a small meal for one. I use a small halogen cooker instead


i wish more like £1400 , the joys of a house with 2 kids and mrs ck has the tv on all day


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## midlife (4 Feb 2022)

Don't really keep track as I just pay it. Electric about £600 a quarter and oil about £2000 a year.


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## oldwheels (4 Feb 2022)

My living room sits at 19 or 20C and is difficult to make quick changes as I use storage heaters and if they cannot cope I have a solid fuel stove. That makes the room too warm so used infrequently. In mid season I only have the solid fuel when needed with no storage heaters on and summer nothing but a calor gas patio heater as a standby. 
This is the first year I have used the living room storage heater as I think you need more heat as you get older. In past years I only used solid fuel in winter but the work involved is getting wearisome. The rough estimate for current use of electricity is around £35 per week for heating alone.


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## PaulSB (5 Feb 2022)

oldwheels said:


> My living room sits at 19 or 20C and is difficult to make quick changes as I use storage heaters and if they cannot cope I have a solid fuel stove. That makes the room too warm so used infrequently. In mid season I only have the solid fuel when needed with no storage heaters on and summer nothing but a calor gas patio heater as a standby.
> This is the first year I have used the living room storage heater as I think you need more heat as you get older. In past years I only used solid fuel in winter but the work involved is getting wearisome. *The rough estimate for current use of electricity is around £35 per week for heating alone.*


WOW. That's £750pa more than we pay for gas and electricity in a poorly insulated stone cottage. 

Are you sure everything is working as it should?


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## MrGrumpy (5 Feb 2022)

I’m not far off that  . However this a 5 bed house. Gas is about similar price . Put it this way my DD has doubled since last year . However strangely enough I’m in credit during winter ? Was clean slate when I started this new deal


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## PaulSB (5 Feb 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> I’m not far off that  . However this a 5 bed house. Gas is about similar price . *Put it this way my DD has doubled since last y*ear . However strangely enough I’m in credit during winter ? Was clean slate when I started this new deal


We were moved from People's Energy to British Gas. Initially BG wanted £140/month and knew our annual consumption. I offered £100/month which BG reduced to £90 in December and currently I'm £36 in debit coming out of the winter.

I have to wonder where these companies get their figures from.

I checked changing tariff with BG and in June I'm expecting to be moved to £148/month, an extra £696pa.


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## MrGrumpy (5 Feb 2022)

Yep I’m currently showing £400 odd in credit for gas ? Which is weird , not convinced that is correct ? Leccy is also in credit , which could be right as it’s only £100 odd .


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## oldwheels (5 Feb 2022)

PaulSB said:


> WOW. That's £750pa more than we pay for gas and electricity in a poorly insulated stone cottage.
> 
> Are you sure everything is working as it should?


We pay a higher rate for energy in rural Scotland since we produce enough green energy to export some but are so "remote" we can get ripped off. I will not veer off into politics.
The house has cavity wall insulation and double glazed windows so apart from external cladding not much else can be done.
I am situated on top of a hill with high wind exposure which does not help.
The Highlands and Islands have the greatest incidence of fuel poverty in the UK.


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## MrGrumpy (5 Feb 2022)

oldwheels said:


> We pay a higher rate for energy in rural Scotland since we produce enough green energy to export some but are so "remote" we can get ripped off. I will not veer off into politics.
> The house has cavity wall insulation and double glazed windows so apart from external cladding not much else can be done.
> I am situated on top of a hill with high wind exposure which does not help.
> The Highlands and Islands have the greatest incidence of fuel poverty in the UK.
> View attachment 629711


Seen that on twitter . Quite a discussion. Doesn’t seem very fair does it.


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## Alex321 (5 Feb 2022)

mjr said:


> Yikes! I'd not be able to do that because one of my illness is limiting how cold I can have the house right now... and I'm not that bad, so have it set to 18 or similar during the day while I'm moving about. Some of the people really up against it are those with illnesses where they are at home a lot but also cannot let it get below 20 (which I think is what's shown on those "Warm and Well" leaflets from the GP surgery).
> 
> For an illustration of how farked the electricity retail market is, here's a look at the "Octopus Agile" tariff (which I'm not on, but I have an app that compares it to mine). It varies its retail price in 15-minute intervals based on the wholesale price. It's spending almost all the time pinned at its maximum and has rarely fallen below the new 28p/kWh price cap, except at night during the Xmas/NY holiday and all-day except 4-7pm on Bank Holiday Monday 3 January. Here's the last two months (the most I can see), with the red line and leftmost scale showing the agile price in p/kWh:
> View attachment 629545


We are having solar panels installed on Thursday, though the battery won't come until March, but then was thinking of moving from British Gas to the Octopus Agile tariff because we should be exporting a lot more than we import, and that is about the best SEG rate.


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## oldwheels (5 Feb 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Seen that on twitter . Quite a discussion. Doesn’t seem very fair does it.





MrGrumpy said:


> Seen that on twitter . Quite a discussion. Doesn’t seem very fair does it.


Most of the renewables which make up quite large proportion of our consumption comes from the H & I area.
My current price for standard energy is 19.61p and heating control energy 15.93 all ex vat plus standing charges.


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## PaulSB (5 Feb 2022)

oldwheels said:


> We pay a higher rate for energy in rural Scotland since we produce enough green energy to export some but are so "remote" we can get ripped off. I will not veer off into politics.
> The house has cavity wall insulation and double glazed windows so apart from external cladding not much else can be done.
> I am situated on top of a hill with high wind exposure which does not help.
> The Highlands and Islands have the greatest incidence of fuel poverty in the UK.
> View attachment 629711


Thank you, couple of interesting points there but like you I won't get in to the politics.

A great friend of mine has one of the first windfarms in Scotland. The hoops he jumped through and tales he told about overcoming obstacles are almost legendary.


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## fossyant (5 Feb 2022)

Just been out for some 'kingspan' equivalent from B&Q - hot tub now has a 50mm 'topper' of this to help retain the heat and keep costs down - should have done this ages ago. Managed to cut a big 1800mm diameter circle out of 2400x1200 sheet, with a 600mm seperate section - kept waste down to a minimum. I'll see how my Kwh come down during February !


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## oldwheels (5 Feb 2022)

PaulSB said:


> Thank you, couple of interesting points there but like you I won't get in to the politics.
> 
> A great friend of mine has one of the first windfarms in Scotland. The hoops he jumped through and tales he told about overcoming obstacles are almost legendary.


My son has been involved in windfarms for some years now. He started on maintenance and recruitment and moved on to management but now works mostly overseas on windfarm construction in a variety of roles which I do not understand but his main role seems to be H & S.


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## marzjennings (5 Feb 2022)

oldwheels said:


> We pay a higher rate for energy in rural Scotland since we produce enough green energy to export some but are so "remote" we can get ripped off. I will not veer off into politics.
> The house has cavity wall insulation and double glazed windows so apart from external cladding not much else can be done.
> I am situated on top of a hill with high wind exposure which does not help.
> The Highlands and Islands have the greatest incidence of fuel poverty in the UK.
> View attachment 629711


Those prices seem crazy from here where I am and paying 11c kWh which is high as I selected a renewal source company rather than paying 8c kWh for traditional electricity generation. I need to call me mum in Cornwall and see if she needs help with her bill each month.


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## fossyant (5 Feb 2022)

marzjennings said:


> Those prices seem crazy from here where I am and paying 11c kWh which is high as I selected a renewal source company rather than paying 8c kWh for traditional electricity generation. I need to call me mum in Cornwall and see if she needs help with her bill each month.



17-18 pence a KWh for leccy here, so expecting a 50% rise shortly - that will be a good £100 a month, plus what ever gas will be, maybe another £20 (currrently £40 pm).


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## marzjennings (5 Feb 2022)

fossyant said:


> 17-18 pence a KWh for leccy here, so expecting a 50% rise shortly - that will be a good £100 a month, plus what ever gas will be, maybe another £20 (currrently £40 pm).


That's nuts. I don't know how much mum pays for electricity, but I know she can't afford a £50 hike each month.


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## fossyant (5 Feb 2022)

marzjennings said:


> That's nuts. I don't know how much mum pays for electricity, but I know she can't afford a £50 hike each month.


It's potentially a disaster for many folk.


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## Arrowfoot (5 Feb 2022)

Have been doing some research and indications from the likes of IEA (International Energy Agency) etc. Energy prices will continue to go up. The push for green energy coupled with Covid has seen a decline in investment in this sector and the prices reflect that. Hate to say it but it looks like it will cost an arm and leg for next 2 years or so. There are signs that Govts would have to step in with subsidies across the board to avoid civil unrest in some countries. Natural gas which is considered by many as clean energy has spiralled setting new records in prices and many countries switched to it to meet the carbon emissions quotas. It was considered a much cleaner transitionary fossil fuel before renewables take over for the final stretch.


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## marzjennings (5 Feb 2022)

Arrowfoot said:


> Have been doing some research and indications from the likes of IEA (International Energy Agency) etc. Energy prices will continue to go up. The push for green energy coupled with Covid has seen a decline in investment in this sector and the prices reflect that. Hate to say it but it looks like it will cost an arm and leg for next 2 years or so. There are signs that Govts would have to step in with subsidies across the board to avoid civil unrest in some countries. Natural gas which is considered by many as clean energy has spiralled setting new records in prices and many countries switched to it to meet the carbon emissions quotas. It was considered a much cleaner transitionary fossil fuel before renewables take over for the final stretch.


It's a pity that the UK doesn't tap into the plentiful gas reserves they have on hand. It would help keep prices down, help move away from coal and oil burning, and remove dependence on foreign sources for gas. Almost a win win transition energy source. 

Also the rate of geothermal drilling activity is pathetic. My mum watched them take years to drill a single well down in Cornwall and it'll be years before she benefits from it, even with her being less than a couple miles from the drill site. 

Maybe I'll buy her a few 100kWh solar panels for her roof, which seem to be a lot cheaper to buy in the UK compared to USA.


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## mjr (5 Feb 2022)

marzjennings said:


> It's a pity that the UK doesn't tap into the plentiful gas reserves they have on hand. It would help keep prices down, help move away from coal and oil burning, and remove dependence on foreign sources for gas. Almost a win win transition energy source.


Not really. It's still burning shoot (and other decayed matter) and still polluting and if production is increased, they'll just be selling it the rest of the year because the UK has almost no storage which is why it's been so exposed to price fluctuations. The remaining gas needs to be extracted so as to spin it out to last the transition and ideally leave some in the ground. The biggest problem IMO is not enough seems to be being done to encourage transition to non-polluting fuels. Unlike some countries, the UK government spent its fossil fuel income without setting up an investment fund.


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## ebikeerwidnes (5 Feb 2022)

Slightly off topic
but many years a friend of mine moved into a flat above some shops
when he got the first bill he noticed it was rather high so he queried it - but was told it matched the meter readings
so he started checking the meter daily
he is an engineer - so soon enough he checked at every opportunity and recorded everything

he noticed fairly quickly that the electric was getting used rather a lot during the day when he was at work
so he unplugged EVERYTHING
still it was being used - and rather a lot
so he got an electrician in - who quickly found an 'unusual' wire that didn;t seem to be connected to anything in the flat but did go via the meter and the main fuse box

so the next day he switched all the electric off at the fuse box before he went to work

when he came home the hairdresser downstairs was very very angry
he hadn;t been able to work all day
and his key to my friend's flat didn;t seem to work - probably because a mechanical engineer is quite capable of changing his locks

Funny how some people get angry when they get caught out

My friend was just on the phone to the electric company to "grass them up" when he agreed to pay for the last bill plus the next one - plus the electrician's bill for finding it and cutting it

I could have told him not to mess with my friend - at school he was the ultimate weedy ginger wimp

but he broke 2 noses and an arm and something I can;t remember during secondary school - he never backed down -push him and he just acted - only needed to a few times - and always with the big kids
never got into trouble - no-one would have believed it


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## Daninplymouth (5 Feb 2022)

Alex321 said:


> We are having solar panels installed on Thursday, though the battery won't come until March, but then was thinking of moving from British Gas to the Octopus Agile tariff because we should be exporting a lot more than we import, and that is about the best SEG rate.


You are better off trying to use as much generated electric as possible, as the feed in tariff is so low it’s pretty pointless exporting


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## ebikeerwidnes (5 Feb 2022)

Slightly off topic again - sorry mods

but how did people who have solar panels find a decent installer??
everyone I find seems to be a front which trawls for possible customers to pass onto the people who actually do it
I would rather contact - and research - the actula people who do it right from the start and cut out th e middle man and his cut

TIA


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## Alex321 (6 Feb 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> Slightly off topic again - sorry mods
> 
> but how did people who have solar panels find a decent installer??
> everyone I find seems to be a front which trawls for possible customers to pass onto the people who actually do it
> ...


We went to the Which report, and contacted a few of their list of "trusted installers".


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## Alex321 (6 Feb 2022)

Daninplymouth said:


> You are better off trying to use as much generated electric as possible, as the feed in tariff is so low it’s pretty pointless exporting


1. The feed in tariff is irrelevant, since that is only for people who had their systems installed before it was discontinued. It is now a different system called Smart Export Guarantee. And while different suppliers have different rates, they are mostly higher than the FiT rate. Octopus have both a fixed outgoing rate (at 7.5p/KWH) and an agile outgoing tariff which will vary between 4p and about 10p. The FiT rate would have been 5.24p/KWH.

2. Your concept is just plain wrong anyhow. It wouldn't matter if the export rate was 1p/KWH, you would still be better off taking that than "trying to use it all".

Obviously, if you have a use for it, then use it. But it is completely and utterly pointless just using electricity for the sake of it in order to avoid exporting it.


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## PaulSB (6 Feb 2022)

marzjennings said:


> It's a pity that the UK doesn't tap into the plentiful gas reserves they have on hand. It would help keep prices down, help move away from coal and oil burning, and remove dependence on foreign sources for gas. Almost a win win transition energy source.
> 
> Also the rate of geothermal drilling activity is pathetic. My mum watched them take years to drill a single well down in Cornwall and it'll be years before she benefits from it, even with her being less than a couple miles from the drill site.
> 
> Maybe I'll buy her a few 100kWh solar panels for her roof, which seem to be a lot cheaper to buy in the UK compared to USA.


The real pity is all UK governments failed to use the financial bounty offered by natural gas to invest in UK infrastructure meaning we simply squandered the fuel for decades.

I was completely unaware of what other countries, Norway for example, were doing but I think one could expect one's leaders to have some small inkling.

Burning gas is not the answer.


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## MrGrumpy (6 Feb 2022)

Alex321 said:


> 1. The feed in tariff is irrelevant, since that is only for people who had their systems installed before it was discontinued. It is now a different system called Smart Export Guarantee. And while different suppliers have different rates, they are mostly higher than the FiT rate. Octopus have both a fixed outgoing rate (at 7.5p/KWH) and an agile outgoing tariff which will vary between 4p and about 10p. The FiT rate would have been 5.24p/KWH.
> 
> 2. Your concept is just plain wrong anyhow. It wouldn't matter if the export rate was 1p/KWH, you would still be better off taking that than "trying to use it all".
> 
> Obviously, if you have a use for it, then use it. But it is completely and utterly pointless just using electricity for the sake of it in order to avoid exporting it.


Thanks for explaining that. I was discussing putting PV panels on the roof. It’s perfect facing south. However we are out all day. Not sure if we would see some sort of return on the install. Mate at work reckons he paid it back in about 6.5yrs but he is on the higher rate. Battery banks would be good as well but once again , 10yr warranty with them and he worked out he would see that money back again either in that time frame so no point .


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## gbb (6 Feb 2022)

At mums yesterday, and bear in mind her heating is on constantly at around 25, ours in hardly ever on, never ever at night.
Mums house doesnt have a bath so she showers, we bathe every day, hate showers.
Mums combined bill for the last quarter £450 ish
Our combined bill for a month £150 ish

So quarterly we're about the same.
Neither of us have solar.

So around £40 a week, £20 electric, £20 gas. Christ i was spending £7 a week on not enough coal to stay warm 1977, when i was earning proportionally far less.
We could shower more, but, i suffer with arthritis and ache endlessly at the end of a days work (and most of the day anyway) , a bath is an i mense relief, i can spend hours in one.
People spend more on their phones, media contracts etc etc...i dont enjoy the increases we face but is this another example of getting priorities right ?
( we just reviewed our media package, changed from Virgin to Sky, halved our monthly payment, as my phone comes up, i will move over to PAYG and halve that too. In timed of being stretched, you take a long look at whats important.
Now, if only i could encourage my wife to stop smoking


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## rogerzilla (6 Feb 2022)

I'm WFH, so my energy use is like it would be if I were retired, but worse, because I just sit in front of a laptop (if I am pottering about, I don't really need heat). £720/year gas and electric plus £700 in logs, which I don't think is too bad. I very rarely use the central heating; only if I'm getting up in the morning and going out for hours, in which case it's not worth lighting the stove. The 54% increase in the gas and electricity should just about be covered by the government subsidies (band C house), and the price of wood isn't going up at anything like the same rate.

What I really fear is air source heat pumps. They are _crap. _They cost about 50% more to run than a gas boiler for the same energy use (calculation available, if you want it) BUT your energy use is really a lot higher because you have to heat the house 24/7; they are virtually incapable of warming a house from cold, and hugely inefficient if you try it. I don't want heating at night! And you won't get hot hot water unless you use resistance heating at ruinous cost.

I'll make sure the next house is somewhere that wood burning is unlikely to be banned.


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## Daninplymouth (6 Feb 2022)

Alex321 said:


> 1. The feed in tariff is irrelevant, since that is only for people who had their systems installed before it was discontinued. It is now a different system called Smart Export Guarantee. And while different suppliers have different rates, they are mostly higher than the FiT rate. Octopus have both a fixed outgoing rate (at 7.5p/KWH) and an agile outgoing tariff which will vary between 4p and about 10p. The FiT rate would have been 5.24p/KWH.
> 
> 2. Your concept is just plain wrong anyhow. It wouldn't matter if the export rate was 1p/KWH, you would still be better off taking that than "trying to use it all".
> 
> Obviously, if you have a use for it, then use it. But it is completely and utterly pointless just using electricity for the sake of it in order to avoid exporting it.


I still think your wrong as most suppliers I believe offer 2-4p for exporting, then if you have to buy it back you pay 20-30p. Iv been speaking to a lot of manufacturers regarding equipment and they all say the same, any excess electric you want to ideally put into a battery or electric car if available but if not the consensus is still to use the electric up for example heating your hot water tank or underfloor heating


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## mjr (6 Feb 2022)

rogerzilla said:


> What I really fear is air source heat pumps. They are _crap. _They cost about 50% more to run than a gas boiler for the same energy use (calculation available, if you want it) BUT your energy use is really a lot higher because you have to heat the house 24/7; they are virtually incapable of warming a house from cold, and hugely inefficient if you try it. I don't want heating at night! And you won't get hot hot water unless you use resistance heating at ruinous cost.


No, the one you used is crap. What was it? And yes, show how you arrive at 50% more expensive than gas, please: I reckon it's about equal give or take fluctuations but we do not have access to gas here so that was not an option.

Our Mitsubishi shuts down overnight (and most days as long as it's not too cold so the heat loss slows) and can do hot hot water although that's expensive if it's not warm out so why would you? Hot enough is good enough, plus no risk of visitors scalding themselves. Your house's heat loss is still its heat loss, so you still need the same amount of heat to keep it as warm as you would otherwise, and turning the pumps off overnight doesn't save much but it makes it easier to sleep while the larger lower-temperature radiators act as halfway between radiators and storage heaters.

I really don't want to go back to an oil burner: expensive, polluting and with radiators that you can't touch when on and go cold fast once off.


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## gbb (6 Feb 2022)

rogerzilla said:


> ......
> 
> What I really fear is air source heat pumps. They are _crap. _They cost about 50% more to run than a gas boiler for the same energy use (calculation available, if you want it) BUT your energy use is really a lot higher because you have to heat the house 24/7; they are virtually incapable of warming a house from cold, and hugely inefficient if you try it. I don't want heating at night! And you won't get hot hot water unless you use resistance heating at ruinous cost.
> 
> I'll make sure the next house is somewhere that wood burning is unlikely to be banned.


As we face the probability if boiler replacement in the next few years (its over 25 years old) air source heat pumps are definately OFF the consideration list for several reasons .
We are fresh air lovers, its 6c outside, its been 9c generally today but our heating hasnt been on at all today , windows have been open as well. When we do heat the house, it starts from very cold (maybe 14 or 15c inside) air source has no chance in those circumstances. No way can i live in an airless stuffy, windows closed house.
My son (gas engineer) has studied them a fair but. A very very well insulated house is a pre requisite., we fail because we like fresh air. Supplementary heating (underfloor or similar) may well be needed?
Supplementary water heating may well be needed. As a bath lover, it would be a neccessity.

All these add ons cut deep into any cost savings an air source system might give you.

Unless you hyper spec the system, with all the cost involved, its simply not going to work for people like us....and perhaps many others


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## Alex321 (6 Feb 2022)

Daninplymouth said:


> I still think your wrong as most suppliers I believe offer 2-4p for exporting, then if you have to buy it back you pay 20-30p.


I don't care what "most" suppliers offer.

The minimum on the Agile tariff is 4p, it will usually be closer to 10 at peak hours. And with a battery, you can make sure you are exporting it mainly at peak hours.



Daninplymouth said:


> Iv been speaking to a lot of manufacturers regarding equipment and they all say the same, any excess electric you want to ideally put into a battery or electric car if available but if not the consensus is still to use the electric up for example heating your hot water tank or underfloor heating


It is utterly pointless using it in order to avoid exporting it.

Any "consensus" which suggests you should do that is a consensus of stupidity.

When you fill the battery during the day, and don't come anywhere near emptying it overnight, then any of that surplus you don't export is just wasted.


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## FishFright (6 Feb 2022)

marzjennings said:


> It's a pity that the UK doesn't tap into the plentiful gas reserves they have on hand. It would help keep prices down, help move away from coal and oil burning, and remove dependence on foreign sources for gas. Almost a win win transition energy source.
> 
> Also the rate of geothermal drilling activity is pathetic. My mum watched them take years to drill a single well down in Cornwall and it'll be years before she benefits from it, even with her being less than a couple miles from the drill site.
> 
> Maybe I'll buy her a few 100kWh solar panels for her roof, which seem to be a lot cheaper to buy in the UK compared to USA.



It all effectively belongs to the multinationals , the UK has next to no say in when it comes out nor where it goes too.


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## rogerzilla (6 Feb 2022)

Air source heat pump CoP is 2.5-2.8 in the UK. Let's be generous and say 2.8. So to get 1 kWh of heat, you put in 0.35kWh of electricity. Great. But electricity is 5x the cost of gas per kWh, so 5 x 0.35 = 1.75x the cost. Correct for the efficiency of a gas boiler (say 80%) and you get 1.4x the cost. But you will need to use resistance top-up heating at some times, so 1.5x is a pretty good estimate. I'm ignoring the problem that you can't let the house go cold and just heat it back up when you're in, which is much cheaper than leaving the heating on all the time (a cool house loses residual heat more slowly). Allow for that, and someone who is out all weekdays might see bills triple.

Ground source heat pumps are quite a bit better and might just about break even on cost, but you need a massive garden or a deep borehole.


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## PaulSB (6 Feb 2022)

I look forward to the day someone tries to install a heat pump in our back yard. 😄 Not a hope in hell!!! 😄

Alternatively get permission from the council to install one on the front of the cottage whuch is subject to an Article 4 direction.

The whole idea is a joke.


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## mjr (6 Feb 2022)

rogerzilla said:


> Air source heat pump CoP is 2.5-2.8 in the UK. Let's be generous and say 2.8.


There's the first mistake. Even in the depths of January, with a system with a known fault awaiting a spare part, I'm getting 2.9. On a warm winter's day, it still does 3.8. No way is the long-term average with a current unit going to be as low as 2.8 unless there is a serious fault or an installation error.



> But electricity is 5x the cost of gas per kWh,


And that's the second mistake. Gas is going up to 7p/kWh, electric 28p/kWh. 28 is not 5x7...



> But you will need to use resistance top-up heating at some times,


Once every couple of weeks on a legionella-preventing cycle. Not enough to move the multiplier noticeably.



> I'm ignoring the problem that you can't let the house go cold and just heat it back up when you're in, which is much cheaper than leaving the heating on all the time (a cool house loses residual heat more slowly). Allow for that, and someone who is out all weekdays might see bills triple.


Where is this BS coming from? You just tell the heating controller to let the temperature dip during the day and warm it back up 2h or so before you expect to be home. I agree you probably don't want to leave it low until you get in, else you'll have to drive the heatpump at maximum which, yes, is more expensive, (the quoted efficiency is taken between mid and max), but these systems mostly come with decent remote controls and apps and APIs and stuff so it's not a problem once you have it set up.


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## rogerzilla (7 Feb 2022)

My electricity is 4.96x the cost of gas per kWh, on a very ordinary Eon capped tariff so no, it's not a mistake. And the CoP came from a green energy site where they are trying to get people to change.

This is terrifying: https://myhomefarm.co.uk/potential-air-source-heat-pump-running-cost-issue

And they have solar PV to help!


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## MrGrumpy (7 Feb 2022)

It’s scary !  Unless you have very well insulated home , your fighting a loosing battle with the leccy cost !


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## mjr (7 Feb 2022)

rogerzilla said:


> My electricity is 4.96x the cost of gas per kWh, on a very ordinary Eon capped tariff so no, it's not a mistake.


And we already know it won't be in 8 weeks time and in the medium term gas is going to get relatively more expensive as it runs out.



> And the CoP came from a green energy site where they are trying to get people to change.


Doesn't matter where it came from, it's much too low. Listed annual averages are high 3s. A minor faulty system in winter does better than 2.8.



> This is terrifying: https://myhomefarm.co.uk/potential-air-source-heat-pump-running-cost-issue
> 
> And they have solar PV to help!


Mars has websites to fund, as well as a minor brand heat pump system in an old stone farmhouse. He is right on some things, such as the climate change levy, but he goes a bit hot and cold (contrary to the myth that heat pumps have to be hot all the time  ).

Edit to add: this suggests something is very wrong with his system: "Lower room temperatures don’t work in dropping consumption, in our experience, in our case because the pump is still heating flow rate temperatures to 45C irrespective." Lowering room temperatures should drop consumption because less heat is required, so it may be heating water to 45 the same but it should be from a higher starting point as it lost less heat on its way around the radiators, so cost less. So firstly, it sounds like his system may be dumping heat if any radiators are turned down. And secondly, a constant radiator flow temperature is inefficient and unusual, with most air source systems (and some gas modulating boilers now, especially German-made controllers) varying the temperature inversely with outdoor temperature. In short, there is no way that a system outputting less heat shouldn't consume less than if it outputs more in the same conditions, unless it is very broken.


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## PaulSB (7 Feb 2022)

I'm interested to learn about heat pumps as other than these extract heat from the air or ground I know nothing. I've understood installation of gas boilers in new builds will be banned from 2025 but this does not mean replacing existing gas boilers will be banned. I wonder how a heat pump would work in my circumstances.

Our stone built mid-terrace cottage is 177 years old. All windows are double glazed, we have front and rear porches and the outside doors have been replaced with properly fitting ones. There is insulation in the floor space between the first floor and attic room and the roof is insulated. The property is in a conservation area and subject to an Article 4 Direction. To fit an ASHP in the backyard would entail moving water, drainage, foul water and gas pipes. To improve insulation internally would mean a huge investment. Any form of exterior insulation, solar panels etc. would not be possible due to the Article 4 Direction.

It seems to me we are far from unique, there will be millions of properties in which anything other than gas fired heating is either impossible or financially unattainable. The idea of banning gas boiler installation in the +/- 150,000 new builds per annum will have no serious impact in the short term. Surely it would make more sense to invest in supplying some form of natural gas/hydrogen mixture to all households on the basis hydrogen produces no pollutants. I've no idea of if this is technically possible or even safe?


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## mjr (7 Feb 2022)

PaulSB said:


> The property is in a conservation area and subject to an Article 4 Direction. To fit an ASHP in the backyard would entail moving water, drainage, foul water and gas pipes. To improve insulation internally would mean a huge investment. Any form of exterior insulation, solar panels etc. would not be possible due to the Article 4 Direction.


I agree with your earlier post: "not a hope in hell" with the current equipment, as far as I know. Yours doesn't seem like the sort of place where you can bang a small hole in a wall and run a new "drainpipe" down to a box in the yard, which is what we've got here.

Insulation isn't really much more relevant to heat pumps than any other form of heating. I think it gets linked to heat pumps because the government switchover grants only pay out if you have insulated up to a pretty basic modern-home standard anyway, with loft and wall insulation, so that they aren't paying for bigger heat pumps than really needed... but that does pose challenges for some older buildings.

But something's going to have to change before the gas starts to die out, else such buildings will become so expensive to heat that they ruin their occupiers, or they will be abandoned and left to become a ruin. I suspect properties like yours will probably be among the last to switchover. It would be fascinating to know how many properties are in each category, like "ready to switchover at next boiler replacement", "small works required", "major works required", "HTF?" and so on.



> [...] Surely it would make more sense to invest in supplying some form of natural gas/hydrogen mixture to all households on the basis hydrogen produces no pollutants. I've no idea of if this is technically possible or even safe?


Safe and possible as far as I can tell, but it seems to make little sense yet unless you are near certain chemical works because so much hydrogen production uses fossil fuels, often including natural gas, plus it's a lower-density fuel... Still, smart people are testing whether hydrogen could be added to the gas mains, when and how. Even if it turns out to be environmentally bonkers, I don't expect the gas industry in this country to shut down without a fight. https://www.rechargenews.com/energy...end-in-public-natural-gas-network/2-1-1045075


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## oldwheels (7 Feb 2022)

PaulSB said:


> The real pity is all UK governments failed to use the financial bounty offered by natural gas to invest in UK infrastructure meaning we simply squandered the fuel for decades.
> 
> I was completely unaware of what other countries, Norway for example, were doing but I think one could expect one's leaders to have some small inkling.
> 
> Burning gas is not the answer.


The SNP have been banging on about Norway and the Oil Fund they built up for a long time now but the money here was used for infrastructure much of it in London. Don't think that is veering too far into politics but I will not continue.


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## oldwheels (7 Feb 2022)

rogerzilla said:


> Air source heat pump CoP is 2.5-2.8 in the UK. Let's be generous and say 2.8. So to get 1 kWh of heat, you put in 0.35kWh of electricity. Great. But electricity is 5x the cost of gas per kWh, so 5 x 0.35 = 1.75x the cost. Correct for the efficiency of a gas boiler (say 80%) and you get 1.4x the cost. But you will need to use resistance top-up heating at some times, so 1.5x is a pretty good estimate. I'm ignoring the problem that you can't let the house go cold and just heat it back up when you're in, which is much cheaper than leaving the heating on all the time (a cool house loses residual heat more slowly). Allow for that, and someone who is out all weekdays might see bills triple.
> 
> Ground source heat pumps are quite a bit better and might just about break even on cost, but you need a massive garden or a deep borehole.


My son has installed an air source heat pump for a 20 year old house. There was a lot of work involved but so far the electricity bills are about 25% of previous storage heaters. I have been there recently in cold weather and can confirm the house is comfortable. Gas is not an option.


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## mjr (7 Feb 2022)

gbb said:


> As we face the probability if boiler replacement in the next few years (its over 25 years old) air source heat pumps are definately OFF the consideration list for several reasons .
> We are fresh air lovers, its 6c outside, its been 9c generally today but our heating hasnt been on at all today , windows have been open as well. When we do heat the house, it starts from very cold (maybe 14 or 15c inside) air source has no chance in those circumstances.


Presumably even the gas boiler costs a bomb to heat it up from 14? But indeed, an air source heat pump with 40ish degree radiators will take longer to heat it up than a gas boiler with 70ish degree ones, and I understand the current air source heat pumps with high-temperature radiators cost more to run than gas.



> No way can i live in an airless stuffy, windows closed house.


So change the air in it. Heat-recovery ventilators are available. And if you want a breeze, then go outside and leave the house warm for later.



> My son (gas engineer) has studied them a fair but. A very very well insulated house is a pre requisite.


Only a pre-requisite if you want the grants. May I suggest that gas engineers have a tiny bit of a conflict of interest?



> we fail because we like fresh air. Supplementary heating (underfloor or similar) may well be needed?


It sounds like you fail because you open the windows and then heat a cold house quickly. Not sure what difference supplementary or underfloor heating would make: if you open the windows, it'll still get cold and cost lots to reheat quickly.



> Supplementary water heating may well be needed. As a bath lover, it would be a neccessity.


It's usually installed (just like most fossil-heated tanks have an immersion for emergencies), but unless you have your baths hotter than 55°c (hot enough to cause third-degree burns in 30 seconds or less: the NHS recommends 46°c max), it wouldn't be used except for occasional legionnaires-killing and when outside temperature falls below -10°c for a prolonged period of time. If you have solar PV or solar thermal, you might choose to have supplementary water heating to save money.



> Unless you hyper spec the system, with all the cost involved, its simply not going to work for people like us....and perhaps many others


It might, or it might not, but if all the above myths and legends were true, it wouldn't work for anyone, definitely not somewhere between 15 and 40 million and increasing across Europe. There's so many installed in Norway that oil heating was banned in 2020... but the UK lags behind most of Europe, with fewer than 10% of France's heat pumps, with these odd zombie myths stumbling onwards.


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## fossyant (7 Feb 2022)

oldwheels said:


> My son has installed an air source heat pump for a 20 year old house. There was a lot of work involved but so far the electricity bills are about 25% of previous storage heaters. I have been there recently in cold weather and can confirm the house is comfortable. Gas is not an option.



Probably much better than storage heaters, but I doubt they would out perform an energy efficient gas boiler for cost of fuel though.


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## Ming the Merciless (7 Feb 2022)

I’ve been looking at the heat loss in the house between when the heating goes off and next comes on. I think we can shorten the time the heating may be on, plus maybe drop temp it aims at by 0.5C, without affecting our comfort. I’ll have a play with settings tomorrow.

Theres also some TRV radiator valves which don’t seem to switching certain radiators off (in rooms rarely occupied) properly. I’ll look at that as well.


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## oldwheels (7 Feb 2022)

fossyant said:


> Probably much better than storage heaters, but I doubt they would out perform an energy efficient gas boiler for cost of fuel though.


No mains gas available and possibly lower maintenance.


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## iluvmybike (8 Feb 2022)

Just had an email from Octopus re our fixed rate tariff ending - unlucky timing for us. We currently pay £88 per month for gas & electricity - our choice when the deal ends next month is to move onto a new 12mth fixed tariff at a mere £212 per month; move to their Loyalty (!!!) tariff at £189 per month or move onto the standard variable tariff at £107 per month. However, the SVT amount quoted is BEFORE the rise in April so its a bit of a red herring which is naughty and of course if cap goes up again it will rise even further. However, I think they are 'encouraging' folk to move onto the SVT by making the Fixed tariffs super expensive - this suggest to me that they think the market price is going to rise again. But they have you over barrel - a very quick trawl around comparsion sites shows it dreadful whatever you do. Some folk are really going to struggle with the horrendous price hikes


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## mjr (8 Feb 2022)

iluvmybike said:


> - this suggest to me that they think the market price is going to rise again.


I think everyone is expecting another rise in October. Even if the market starts to fall, the retailers will want to recoup some of the money they've not made, so almost all will charge the cap for as long as they can, until one of the big companies starts lowering.


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## fossyant (9 Feb 2022)

Just submitted my readings this morning - I'm doing it monthly. No noticeable change in KWh usage compared to last 3 years, but the bills have risen. Just £70 in 'debit' - given this is the 'dearest' month for energy (I was about £250 in credit in October but the energy supplier automatically gave it me back into my account - grr). Updated my DD amount, wouldn't let me increase by say £50 per month, oh no, based on 'estimates' (price rises), that's another £100 per month thanks.  Going to see how the added insulation to the 'hot tub' decreases energy use this next month.

Looking back the last 12 months, we seem to be using roughly the same amount of electricity month on month, until we're heating the conservatory/shed for WFH, and more use of the dryer is made (we're going down the clothes hanger and de-humidifier route shortly). I'm hoping this drops with the return to work. Electricity is the killer at our house, and I know where it is... (MrsF's hot tub) - the less the 'heater' is on the better - it's like running a 1KWh kettle 24/7. More insulation, less heating. We're using about 1000 KWh on average 

Gas has jumped from 200 KWh in summer , rising steadily per month to about 1,300 KWh at present - that's less of a worry as we average about £45 per month in gas, but I'll be paying a keen eye on the leccy from now on.


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## Ming the Merciless (9 Feb 2022)

My direct debit is £2 less than usage at moment, currently have credit. Interesting gas and electric costs are roughly the same. I’d have have thought that gas, which is the heating and cooking would be more, but apparently not. Both will drop as the seasons turn.


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## numbnuts (9 Feb 2022)

Smart meters 
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1563061/Smart-meter-surge-pricing-Ofgem-ont


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## ebikeerwidnes (9 Feb 2022)

I have no idea where we are up to with energy bills

The previous companies I was with would ask for a meter reading every month and I could tell where I was up to
EDF seem to just send a bill every 6 months and ask for a reading just before this - so I could be owing loads and not know
I have actually sent them a reading every month - but initially their web site wouldn't allow even that

Hardly a good way to help people keep control of their bills and energy usage.

Mind you - a working 'smart' meter would be nice - mine went dumb when I changed from Sainsbury's (i.e. BG) and then went even dumber a couple of years later!


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## iluvmybike (9 Feb 2022)

numbnuts said:


> Smart meters
> https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1563061/Smart-meter-surge-pricing-Ofgem-ont


Hmmm - could that be a cheeky way of getting folk to have a smart meter?


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## ebikeerwidnes (9 Feb 2022)

numbnuts said:


> Smart meters
> https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1563061/Smart-meter-surge-pricing-Ofgem-ont


That does sound like a sensible thing to do
However, it does need publicising - e.g. how many people have a washing machine that can easily be set off at a time in the future
or dishwasher etc etc
If people knew this is coming then they can work out how to use it to their advantage - and from a National point of view t makes sense to reward people who use up excess wind power (etc) at times when it is being generated but the demand is too low


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## DCLane (9 Feb 2022)

@ebikeerwidnes - my washer/dryer and dishwasher both have Bluetooth. Not sure why or how it works and I've never set it up, but I can see the benefit of running them on non-peak times should time-based pricing be implemented.


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## Speicher (9 Feb 2022)

Prices for energy are rocketting, and already some people will need to choose between "heating and eating". 

Why are the biggest (Shell alledgedly) making enormous profits? 

On the news they defended themselves saying the profits will be reinvested in "renewable" energy sources. Is there a limit to how much they can do in one financial year? I imagine the shareholders are still receiving their two (? ) per cent? I am reliably informed that Pension funds will make up 90% of share holders, so that may be a different scenario.


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## gavroche (9 Feb 2022)

I get an email every month from Octopus advising me to provide my own readings for gas and electricity. Once done, they send me another email telling me how much I have used and the cost with a balance on my monthly payments. 
I like it that way and have no intention of getting a smart meter.


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## fossyant (9 Feb 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> That does sound like a sensible thing to do
> However, it does need publicising - e.g. how many people have a washing machine that can easily be set off at a time in the future
> or dishwasher etc etc
> If people knew this is coming then they can work out how to use it to their advantage - and from a National point of view t makes sense to reward people who use up excess wind power (etc) at times when it is being generated but the demand is too low



Worth doing it on-line just so you know. I got out of the habit of sending readings last winter and got a bit of a shock at the electric use when we'd been heating both the conservatory and shed for WFH.

Both me and MrsF are very different with heat - she get's cold, I run too hot. I'm currently in the conservatory, MrsF at work, but I've the oil radiator on low, house heating off, and I've got a jumper on. We'll both be here on Friday, and I'll be battling turning the heating down in the conservatory as she'll say it's making her cold on the other side of the lounge.

Oh and no Smart Meter here either - they can bog off.


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## ebikeerwidnes (9 Feb 2022)

gavroche said:


> I get an email every month from Octopus advising me to provide my own readings for gas and electricity. Once done, they send me another email telling me how much I have used and the cost with a balance on my monthly payments.
> I like it that way and have no intention of getting a smart meter.


They used to do that with me when I was with them
WIsh I hadn't switched but Green Network Energy seemed just as good and as green
until they went bust and I got palmed off onto EDF - who tbf - have been good except for their 6 monthly billing

If I could go back to Octopus on my current fixed tariff I would!


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## Alex321 (9 Feb 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> That does sound like a sensible thing to do
> However, it does need publicising - e.g. how many people have a washing machine that can easily be set off at a time in the future
> or dishwasher etc etc
> If people knew this is coming then they can work out how to use it to their advantage - and from a National point of view t makes sense to reward people who use up excess wind power (etc) at times when it is being generated but the demand is too low


We are having Solar panels installed tomorrow (but the battery doesn't come until next month), and are thinking of going onto the Octopus Agile tariff, which does charge and pay variable rates for import/export according to demand.

So I would expect we will set it up to store in the battery during off-peak times, and export at peak times. We are having a pretty hefty system put in, and I don't expect we will be using much more than about 35% of the generated energy over a year (until we get an EV, when charging that will increase our usage significantly I expect).



fossyant said:


> Looking back the last 12 months, we seem to be using roughly the same amount of electricity month on month, until we're heating the conservatory/shed for WFH, and more use of the dryer is made (we're going down the clothes hanger and de-humidifier route shortly). I'm hoping this drops with the return to work. Electricity is the killer at our house, and I know where it is... (MrsF's hot tub) - the less the 'heater' is on the better - it's like running a 1KWh kettle 24/7. More insulation, less heating. We're using about 1000 KWh on average


We used about 3000KWh in the last year (our system is predicted to supply about 9,500KWh per year).


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## Ming the Merciless (9 Feb 2022)

Knocked roughly half an hour off the times when the heating might be on and dropped temp by 0.5C. Let’s see how that affects bill


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## presta (9 Feb 2022)

DCLane said:


> my washer/dryer and dishwasher both have Bluetooth. Not sure why or how it works and I've never set it up


If you don't set up a password Chinese hackers will use them for laundering money.


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## mjr (9 Feb 2022)

gavroche said:


> I get an email every month from Octopus advising me to provide my own readings for gas and electricity. Once done, they send me another email telling me how much I have used and the cost with a balance on my monthly payments.


Have you ever won a prize on that wheel of fortune, though?



gavroche said:


> I like it that way and have no intention of getting a smart meter.





fossyant said:


> Oh and no Smart Meter here either - they can bog off.


Why the hate? The early ones were shoot but the current ones look OK, at least if you're with a retailer like Octopus that gives you access to your own usage data.



Alex321 said:


> We are having Solar panels installed tomorrow (but the battery doesn't come until next month), and are thinking of going onto the Octopus Agile tariff, which does charge and pay variable rates for import/export according to demand.


Check the numbers carefully before doing more than thinking. As I posted a few pages ago, Octopus Agile has been pinned at its maximum import price of 35p/kWh 0630-2230 most weekdays recently. It's only gone negative once in the last month and average unit price for my economy-7-style usage would have been 34.3p/kWh, considerably more than my current daytime rate.


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## gavroche (9 Feb 2022)

mjr said:


> Have you ever won a prize on that wheel of fortune, though?


Not yet but working on it.


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## vickster (9 Feb 2022)

gavroche said:


> Not yet but working on it.


I won a whole pound this month


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## PaulSB (10 Feb 2022)

numbnuts said:


> Smart meters
> https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1563061/Smart-meter-surge-pricing-Ofgem-ont


I would have read this if the Express didn't fill the bloody page with so many adverts I couldn't see half of the article.

I've had a smart meter since early August. It has not worked once, not one single day. A complete and utter waste of time and money. In December I put it in the box of spare cables and chargers I keep in the loft. Presumably it will live there for a few years till the next time I have a clear out.

Smart? My arse.


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## mjr (10 Feb 2022)

PaulSB said:


> I've had a smart meter since early August. It has not worked once, not one single day. A complete and utter waste of time and money. In December I put it in the box of spare cables and chargers I keep in the loft. Presumably it will live there for a few years till the next time I have a clear out.
> 
> Smart? My arse.


Do you mean the meter or just the consumer display unit or whatever it's properly called?


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## Alex321 (11 Feb 2022)

PaulSB said:


> I would have read this if the Express didn't fill the bloody page with so many adverts I couldn't see half of the article.
> 
> I've had a smart meter since early August. It has not worked once, not one single day. A complete and utter waste of time and money. In December I put it in the box of spare cables and chargers I keep in the loft. Presumably it will live there for a few years till the next time I have a clear out.
> 
> Smart? My arse.



That isn't the smart meter. The smart meter lives in the box where the electricity/gas supply enters the house, and cannot just be "put in the box of spare cables".

What you are talking about is the unit which displays data from eth smart meter to you.


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## PaulSB (11 Feb 2022)

Alex321 said:


> That isn't the smart meter. The smart meter lives in the box where the electricity/gas supply enters the house, and cannot just be "put in the box of spare cables".
> 
> What you are talking about is the unit which displays data from eth smart meter to you.


Yes,you're quite right. Still completely hopeless though. Not a single reading on the display, the energy supplier doesn't know my consumption and I have to supply the readings every month as I've always done.

Utterly pointless technology.


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## PaulSB (11 Feb 2022)

mjr said:


> Do you mean the meter or just the consumer display unit or whatever it's properly called?


Yes, apologies the display unit is what I've chucked in a box in the loft. The meters work in the sense they show the consumption data but I still have to provide this to British Gas monthly. The meters themselves do nothing the previous ones couldn't. A pointless investment costing hundreds of millions which ultimately we have paid for despite them being "free."


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## MrGrumpy (11 Feb 2022)

PaulSB said:


> Yes, apologies the display unit is what I've chucked in a box in the loft. The meters work in the sense they show the consumption data but I still have to provide this to British Gas monthly. The meters themselves do nothing the previous ones couldn't. A pointless investment costing hundreds of millions which ultimately we have paid for despite them being "free."


The small display units need to sit close to the smart meters. Mine disconnect from time to time. If I’m honest I never look at them. So I’m that respect yes , waste of money . However assuming they work fine , you should see usage date , cost etc in an app ? I do on mine ? It lags by 24hrs .


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## Alex321 (11 Feb 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> The small display units need to sit close to the smart meters. Mine disconnect from time to time. If I’m honest I never look at them. So I’m that respect yes , waste of money . However assuming they work fine , you should see usage date , cost etc in an app ? I do on mine ? It lags by 24hrs .


I'd never even turned mine on until yesterday, although it has been in the house since we moved in (June 2020).

But I plugged it in and turned on yesterday, as we were having the solar panels installed. It connected just fine, even though the meter is nearly at the other end of the house, and it showed real time usage for both gas and electricity, and also showed totals for the day, week, month, year, and costs at the rate I am currently charged.

Once the solar was commissioned, it was showing the surplus with a different icon (and current cost as £0.00  ).

It gives us the chance to monitor over the next few weeks until the battery arrive before deciding which SEG to go for - though Octopus are looking likely.


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## mjr (11 Feb 2022)

PaulSB said:


> Yes, apologies the display unit is what I've chucked in a box in the loft. The meters work in the sense they show the consumption data but I still have to provide this to British Gas monthly. The meters themselves do nothing the previous ones couldn't. A pointless investment costing hundreds of millions which ultimately we have paid for despite them being "free."


It should do stuff that the old one couldn't like report the numbers itself, do rates set at 15 minute intervals and so on, but it sounds like yours is broken. They should fix it.


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## PaulSB (11 Feb 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> The small display units need to sit close to the smart meters. Mine disconnect from time to time. If I’m honest I never look at them. So I’m that respect yes , waste of money . However assuming they work fine , you should see usage date , cost etc in an app ? I do on mine ? It lags by 24hrs .


My electric meter is indoors and the gas outside in a wall mounted white box. The meters are +/- 14 metres apart. The engineer placed the display unit 2.5 metres away from the electricity meter in a direct line meaning it's +/- 11 metres from the external gas meter. I presume he knew what he was doing.

After installation I was told to wait 24-48 hours for the display to start working as it need to be activated by the supplier. Nothing happened so after a couple of weeks I contacted the energy company and installers who asked me to press the reset button - there isn't one - and the usual, unplug, plug in etc. routine. None of this had an effect despite my trying repeatedly over several weeks. Eventually I put the display away having lost interest.

As I understand it the meters should communicate directly with the supplier using either a network known as WAN or the mobile phone network. The gas meter is battery powered for safety and communicates with the electric meter which sends both readings to the supplier. The electric meter communicates separately with the IHD display unit and is therefore, in my view, irrelevant to the communication between the meters and the energy company.


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## ebikeerwidnes (11 Feb 2022)

A lot of the smart meters communicate with the supplier using part of the mobile phone network
If your signal is not too good then it can cause the meter to fail to communicate with the supplier - but they are well aware of this and should fix it
After all - we are paying them to get everyone onto the damn things!


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## MrGrumpy (11 Feb 2022)

PaulSB said:


> My electric meter is indoors and the gas outside in a wall mounted white box. The meters are +/- 14 metres apart. The engineer placed the display unit 2.5 metres away from the electricity meter in a direct line meaning it's +/- 11 metres from the external gas meter. I presume he knew what he was doing.
> 
> After installation I was told to wait 24-48 hours for the display to start working as it need to be activated by the supplier. Nothing happened so after a couple of weeks I contacted the energy company and installers who asked me to press the reset button - there isn't one - and the usual, unplug, plug in etc. routine. None of this had an effect despite my trying repeatedly over several weeks. Eventually I put the display away having lost interest.
> 
> As I understand it the meters should communicate directly with the supplier using either a network known as WAN or the mobile phone network. The gas meter is battery powered for safety and communicates with the electric meter which sends both readings to the supplier. The electric meter communicates separately with the IHD display unit and is therefore, in my view, irrelevant to the communication between the meters and the energy company.


Indeed the small display unit , is a waste. Mine is in the utility room. I hardly look at it. What’s it’s maybe more useful for if it’s working and connected is for checking what’s uses most leccy ? It’s real time info. So you can go around switching stuff off etc.


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## midlife (11 Feb 2022)

Somewhere in the back of a drawer is a device to measure how much electricity you are using, by a company called Owl I think. You clipped something to the mains cable with a display in the house. Got bored with watching it so put it away about 15 years ago....


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## mjr (11 Feb 2022)

midlife said:


> Somewhere in the back of a drawer is a device to measure how much electricity you are using, by a company called Owl I think. You clipped something to the mains cable with a display in the house. Got bored with watching it so put it away about 15 years ago....


I borrowed one of those from the public library when we move in here. It was great for prioritising replacing kitchen lights and floodlights with LEDs and so on, which were a surprisingly large chunk of energy use.

Of course, now you can do it with a smartphone app if you've a smart meter.


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## oldwheels (13 Feb 2022)

oldwheels said:


> We pay a higher rate for energy in rural Scotland since we produce enough green energy to export some but are so "remote" we can get ripped off. I will not veer off into politics.
> The house has cavity wall insulation and double glazed windows so apart from external cladding not much else can be done.
> I am situated on top of a hill with high wind exposure which does not help.
> The Highlands and Islands have the greatest incidence of fuel poverty in the UK.
> View attachment 629711


I have another one somewhere showing transmission charges where we pay over the odds by a large margin but bits of southern England get paid to transmit electricity. Verging on getting banned tho’.


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## numbnuts (13 Feb 2022)

midlife said:


> Somewhere in the back of a drawer is a device to measure how much electricity you are using, by a company called Owl I think. You clipped something to the mains cable with a display in the house. Got bored with watching it so put it away about 15 years ago....


I've got one supplied by npower, it justs sits next to my desktop and most of the time it has £0.02 so that per hour, it goes up to £0.03 if the fridge freezer come on and up to £0.05 if the washing machine or the breadmaker is on.


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## mjr (13 Feb 2022)

numbnuts said:


> I've got one supplied by npower, it justs sits next to my desktop and most of the time it has £0.02 so that per hour, it goes up to £0.03 if the fridge freezer come on and up to £0.05 if the washing machine or the breadmaker is on.


Hmmm... my heating will dwarf that  I've not yet got a smart meter but the heating has its own meters, reporting to my phone (amongst others). 19p for the last hour, resulting in 4.5kWh of heat. Oh well, it's only winter once a year!  😎 ♨️♨️♨️


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## mjr (16 Feb 2022)

The southern Walloon region of Belgium has joined Brussels in requiring energy companies to get a court decision before they can cut off a customer.


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## gbb (16 Feb 2022)

Talking to colleagues and it seems (a very small survey tbf) that we're all paying around £120 to £150 a month for dual fuel. Thats manageable we seem to agree, all wish it was cheaper but hey ho.
And then you think back to when we wer'nt so flush, and how it sits with those who struggle...and it must be a real struggle. I remember being young and not long married (late 70s, early80s), a bag of coal was £7, we could afford one bag a week...and it simply wasnt enough. 
But survive we did, in fact it taught us a lot about priorities, finances, made us determined to lift ourselves out of the struggle, little by little. It also reminds you, you can accustom yourself (and the kids) to houses that are not like greenhouses.


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## MrGrumpy (17 Feb 2022)

gbb said:


> Talking to colleagues and it seems (a very small survey tbf) that we're all paying around £120 to £150 a month for dual fuel. Thats manageable we seem to agree, all wish it was cheaper but hey ho.
> And then you think back to when we wer'nt so flush, and how it sits with those who struggle...and it must be a real struggle. I remember being young and not long married (late 70s, early80s), a bag of coal was £7, we could afford one bag a week...and it simply wasnt enough.
> But survive we did, in fact it taught us a lot about priorities, finances, made us determined to lift ourselves out of the struggle, little by little. It also reminds you, you can accustom yourself (and the kids) to houses that are not like greenhouses.


Funny compared my energy bill to what my eldest two pay in digs. Let’s just say I’ve had a reaction , no longer Blackpool illuminations when I’m out


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## cyberknight (17 Feb 2022)

gbb said:


> Talking to colleagues and it seems (a very small survey tbf) that we're all paying around £120 to £150 a month for dual fuel. Thats manageable we seem to agree, all wish it was cheaper but hey ho.
> And then you think back to when we wer'nt so flush, and how it sits with those who struggle...and it must be a real struggle. I remember being young and not long married (late 70s, early80s), a bag of coal was £7, we could afford one bag a week...and it simply wasnt enough.
> But survive we did, in fact it taught us a lot about priorities, finances, made us determined to lift ourselves out of the struggle, little by little. It also reminds you, you can accustom yourself (and the kids) to houses that are not like greenhouses.


already turned the heating down by 1 c , its enough to be comfortable in a cardigan ( cant do jumpers with my arm ) compared to t shirt warm


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## Roseland triker (17 Feb 2022)

My energy bills have gone sky high with the cost of wine now....

As for the peanut costs I'm appalled


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## MrGrumpy (17 Feb 2022)

Made a conscious decision last year to drop temps down as well. It’s been fairly mild on the whole this winter. So my Nest stat is maxed at 18.5c . Last year I had it at 21c at night


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## Roseland triker (17 Feb 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Made a conscious decision last year to drop temps down as well. It’s been fairly mild on the whole this winter. So my Nest stat is maxed at 18.5c . Last year I had it at 21c at night


It's been very warm here this winter. 
My house stays around 21c with the heating on for just a couple of hours a day.
I paid 34ppl on oil during the summer and filled up the tank so it's quite cheap really


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## fossyant (17 Feb 2022)

Our heating is on at around 18c - I've actually adjusted the timer for the heating to go off at 7pm rather than 9.30 since we completed the boarding in the loft - made the bedrooms too warm, so the heating is off earlier so they cool down.

I'm going to keep an eye on our leccy as that's our big bill - I give monthly readings on line, but I'm thinking of a weekly tracker. Just added some extra insulation to MrsF's hot tub (big power user) and even more LED bulbs have been added - we've got one light that's not LED as it's a G4 bulb that is on a dimmable lamp, and the G4 LED's we have aren't dimmable.


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## fossyant (17 Feb 2022)

I've just done a quick check on my usage over the last week, after the extra insulation has been fitted. OK, add in other variables etc etc, but it's lowered consumption by 1KWh a day, so over a month £6 - not massive, but recoups costs within 6 months.


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## mjr (17 Feb 2022)

Roseland triker said:


> It's been very warm here this winter.
> My house stays around 21c with the heating on for just a couple of hours a day.
> I paid 34ppl on oil during the summer and filled up the tank so it's quite cheap really


Only if the tankful lasts until oil is that cheap again, but what uncertainty!


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## midlife (17 Feb 2022)

Just ordered some heating oil, I'll check how much it is. Not sure it's only 34pence a litre though


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## Roseland triker (17 Feb 2022)

Lol


midlife said:


> Just ordered some heating oil, I'll check how much it is. Not sure it's only 34pence a litre though


More like about 75ppl at the moment I think


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## Roseland triker (17 Feb 2022)

mjr said:


> Only if the tankful lasts until oil is that cheap again, but what uncertainty!


Not doing to bad should last until may as I put a huge tank in last summer


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## MrGrumpy (17 Feb 2022)

fossyant said:


> I'm going to keep an eye on our leccy as that's our big bill - I give monthly readings on line, but I'm thinking of a weekly tracker. Just added some extra insulation to MrsF's hot tub (big power user)


I reckon that was costing us £30-40 a month last year . It’s a lot more now !


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## SpokeyDokey (17 Feb 2022)

Domestic heating oil is about 65p per litre at the moment. 

Peak use for us is Nov to March at around £100 per month at today's rates. 

When we moved here in '97 it was 17p per litre.


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## midlife (17 Feb 2022)

That's 800 litres heating oil just delivered, at 65ppl comes to £520. We fill up about 4-5 times a year so that's probably about £2.3k in oil. Dial in the electric we use at over £1k and that's quite spendy.


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## SpokeyDokey (17 Feb 2022)

midlife said:


> That's 800 litres heating oil just delivered, at 65ppl comes to £520. We fill up about 4-5 times a year so that's probably about £2.3k in oil. Dial in the electric we use at over £1k and that's quite spendy.



You use a lot more oil than us.

Our heating is a mixed bag of oil, coal (smokeless briquettes) and logs - about £1500 pa so not too bad I suppose for Cumbria.


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## midlife (17 Feb 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> You use a lot more oil than us.
> 
> Our heating is a mixed bag of oil, coal (smokeless briquettes) and logs - about £1500 pa so not too bad I suppose Cumbria.



When we moved here 20 years ago and moved since we have had new builds. However they had small gardens, new builds with decent garden were above our price range. To get a nicer garden we bought a 1931 drafty and uninsulated money pit and are gradually sorting it out. Still go to bed in a jumper though lol


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## fossyant (17 Feb 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> I reckon that was costing us £30-40 a month last year . It’s a lot more now !


I know


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## jowwy (17 Feb 2022)

we've decided not to set the hot tub up this year.....current prices make them a super luxury, that we can do with out for now.


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## fossyant (17 Feb 2022)

jowwy said:


> we've decided not to set the hot tub up this year.....current prices make them a super luxury, that we can do with out for now.



Wise !


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## MrGrumpy (17 Feb 2022)

jowwy said:


> we've decided not to set the hot tub up this year.....current prices make them a super luxury, that we can do with out for now.


My view as well, just not told the rest of the family


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## ebikeerwidnes (17 Feb 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> My view as well, just not told the rest of the family


I suggest electrical fault
danger to life might be mentioned

One year I unplugged the telly and my daughter didn;t watch telly all summer holidays - did wonders for her reading and fitness

It is amazing what lies you can get away with


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## MrGrumpy (19 Feb 2022)

Just been on my providers website looking at what new tariffs are available  . Standard tarrif is currently projecting over £3k in usage . The two fixed rates they are offering are eye watering! Over £6k on each one !! With the price caps changes still to go on I believe it’s utter crazy stuff  . My DD energy is going to be double my mortgage payment !


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## mjr (19 Feb 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Just been on my providers website looking at what new tariffs are available  . Standard tarrif is currently projecting over £3k in usage .


If that's per year, that's high. Any opportunities to reduce usage?

Of course, if per decade, it'd be pretty good.


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## MrGrumpy (19 Feb 2022)

mjr said:


> If that's per year, that's high. Any opportunities to reduce usage?
> 
> Of course, if per decade, it'd be pretty good.


Probably less use of the dishwasher may help but other than that not really much I can do. We are a family of 5 so washing machine gets hammered etc . That’s the leccy part , gas usage I’ve made some changes with thermostat temp but not much else I can do. It’s a big house so has big bills.


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## PaulSB (20 Feb 2022)

Mrs P suggested we would need to watch our energy usage more carefully when our current tariff ends and we get in to next winter. Our consumption is very low in the summer months and she was talking of gas CH.

I began an experiment three days ago turning the thermostat down by 2⁰ and shortening the on/off period by 30 minutes in the morning, 15 minutes at lunchtime and 30 minutes in the evening. I haven't told my wife and she hasn't commented.

I've approached it this way so if my wife suggests we make changes next autumn/winter I can point out we've been at lower temperatures for months. If my wife knew I'd dropped the thermostat by 2⁰ she would be cold.


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## ebikeerwidnes (20 Feb 2022)

PaulSB said:


> Mrs P suggested we would need to watch our energy usage more carefully when our current tariff ends and we get in to next winter. Our consumption is very low in the summer months and she was talking of gas CH.
> 
> I began an experiment three days ago turning the thermostat down by 2⁰ and shortening the on/off period by 30 minutes in the morning, 15 minutes at lunchtime and 30 minutes in the evening. I haven't told my wife and she hasn't commented.
> 
> I've approached it this way so if my wife suggests we make changes next autumn/winter I can point out we've been at lower temperatures for months. If my wife knew I'd dropped the thermostat by 2⁰ she would be cold.


I can;t do that - we have a clock with a thermometer on it in the lounge 
however, in spite of the weather, we have cut down how often we use the heating during the day - possibly due to her new 'lounge wear' that I gave her for Christmas which is quite thick
I normally wear a jumper in the house in winter - but apparently this is just weird!


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## geocycle (20 Feb 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Just been on my providers website looking at what new tariffs are available  . Standard tarrif is currently projecting over £3k in usage . The two fixed rates they are offering are eye watering! Over £6k on each one !! With the price caps changes still to go on I believe it’s utter crazy stuff  . My DD energy is going to be double my mortgage payment !


Yes, we just sorted ours, the variable rate was about 10% above current dual fuel bill, the fixed for a year was 50% more and the fixed for two years 70% more! Of course the variable rate will go up enormously in April. We went for a 12 month deal. Fortunately for us the total for offset Gas and green electric is much less than you are paying.


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## mjr (20 Feb 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> I can;t do that - we have a clock with a thermometer on it in the lounge


Can you calibrate it differently? 

Anyone who hasn't got it yet, check whether your heating can or could be upgraded to do "weather compensation", lowering the radiator temperature as the outdoor temperature rises. Savings range from 8 to 25% depending on who's reporting it because it takes less energy to warm the water and it cools less quickly. All the rage over on the mainland. I think it's required on all new boilers in some countries.


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## Scaleyback (20 Feb 2022)

mjr said:


> Can you calibrate it differently?
> 
> Anyone who hasn't got it yet, check whether your heating can or could be upgraded to do "weather compensation", lowering the radiator temperature as the outdoor temperature rises. Savings range from 8 to 25% depending on who's reporting it because it takes less energy to warm the water and it cools less quickly. All the rage over on the mainland. I think it's required on all new boilers in some countries.


I was always led to believe that the CHB Stat (that controls the water temp) was at it's most efficient when used at the 'upper reaches' of the temp range, this is assuming you have room temp stat (or stats) Hotter boiler temp = hotter rads = quicker warm up to room stat setting = quicker boiler shutdown.  Not advised if you have stored hot water without individual cistern thermostat as the domestic hot water will get dangerously hot. Hmm, i guess this may also apply to 'Combi' boilers ? which are very popular these days. Personally, I have never had a 'Combi' always a airing cupboard with a hot water cylinder.


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## mjr (20 Feb 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> I was always led to believe that the CHB Stat (that controls the water temp) was at it's most efficient when used at the 'upper reaches' of the temp range, this is assuming you have room temp stat (or stats)


Why does stat efficiency matter? Any gains in stat efficiency will be wiped out by boiler inefficiency.



> Hotter boiler temp = hotter rads = quicker warm up to room stat setting = quicker boiler shutdown.


= more fuel burnt to go at 90 instead of 40 = yoyoing room temperatures, usually.



> Not advised if you have stored hot water without individual cistern thermostat as the domestic hot water will get dangerously hot. Hmm, i guess this may also apply to 'Combi' boilers ? which are very popular these days. Personally, I have never had a 'Combi' always a airing cupboard with a hot water cylinder.


Not so much combi but I think it's only possible with modulating boilers. I could be wrong on that, though.


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## MrGrumpy (20 Feb 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> I was always led to believe that the CHB Stat (that controls the water temp) was at it's most efficient when used at the 'upper reaches' of the temp range, this is assuming you have room temp stat (or stats) Hotter boiler temp = hotter rads = quicker warm up to room stat setting = quicker boiler shutdown.  Not advised if you have stored hot water without individual cistern thermostat as the domestic hot water will get dangerously hot. Hmm, i guess this may also apply to 'Combi' boilers ? which are very popular these days. Personally, I have never had a 'Combi' always a airing cupboard with a hot water cylinder.


I think there maybe a tipping point with setting a high temp at the CH boiler stat ? As in you maybe able to drop it down a few degrees with minimal loss in heating up. Less gas used to reach set temp


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## Scaleyback (21 Feb 2022)

mjr said:


> = more fuel burnt to go at 90 instead of 40 = yoyoing room temperatures,


I guess you have a point ? Running your boiler stat at 40 degrees will probably stop " yoyoing room temperatures "
The room will probably be cold 'all the time '


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## Alex321 (21 Feb 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> I guess you have a point ? Running your boiler stat at 40 degrees will probably stop " yoyoing room temperatures "
> The room will probably be cold 'all the time '


If it is, then your house insulation is not good.

While I wouldn't go quite as low as 40, because I want hot water from the tap to be hotter than that, it would be warm enough for radiators to heat the rooms decently, and would be much more fuel efficient.


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## Scaleyback (21 Feb 2022)

Alex321 said:


> If it is, then your house insulation is not good.
> 
> While I wouldn't go quite as low as 40, because I want hot water from the tap to be hotter than that, it would be warm enough for radiators to heat the rooms decently, and would be much more fuel efficient.


If you do not have independent control of domestic hot water temperature your central heating system must be antiquated and desperately inefficient compared to a modern condensing / Combi boiler.


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## Alex321 (21 Feb 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> If you do not have independent control of domestic hot water temperature your central heating system must be antiquated and desperately inefficient compared to a modern condensing / Combi boiler.



Even some condensing boilers only have one water temperature setting, though ours is indeed antiquated and not a condensing boiler - I imagine it is still the original boiler from when the house was built in 1998.


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## Scaleyback (21 Feb 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Even some condensing boilers only have one water temperature setting, though ours is indeed antiquated and not a condensing boiler - I imagine it is still the original boiler from when the house was built in 1998.


All condensing system boilers only have one water temperature setting ! Independent control of domestic hot water comes from a thermostat affixed to the hot water storage tank. This thermostat controls the 'motorised' 3 way valve. When the temperature set on the hot water storage tank thermostat is 'satisfied' the water flow thru the tank is cut off. This allows high temperature water settings on your boiler stat without dangerously hot water from your hot water taps.

Your earlier comment about 40 degree temp water from your taps ! Your domestic hot water needs to be set at a minimum of 60 degrees
or you are at risk from Legionnaires' disease 
Suggest you read this:- Legionnaires' disease


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## fossyant (21 Feb 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> I can;t do that - we have a clock with a thermometer on it in the lounge
> however, in spite of the weather, we have cut down how often we use the heating during the day - possibly due to her new 'lounge wear' that I gave her for Christmas which is quite thick
> I normally wear a jumper in the house in winter - but apparently this is just weird!



This is going back a few years, but a mate at work always had a battle with his partner over heating. It was that 'hot' in the house, he was walking round in shorts and a t-shirt in the middle of winter - he said 'it's winter, why is the heating on so hot'. He 'lost'.


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## Alex321 (21 Feb 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> All condensing system boilers only have one water temperature setting ! Independent control of domestic hot water comes from a thermostat affixed to the hot water storage tank. This thermostat controls the 'motorised' 3 way valve. When the temperature set on the hot water storage tank thermostat is 'satisfied' the water flow thru the tank is cut off. This allows high temperature water settings on your boiler stat without dangerously hot water from your hot water taps.
> 
> Your earlier comment about 40 degree temp water from your taps ! Your domestic hot water needs to be set at a minimum of 60 degrees
> or you are at risk from Legionnaires' disease
> Suggest you read this:- Legionnaires' disease


My comment stated I wanted it *hotter* than 40 degrees. I have no need to read that.


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## Scaleyback (21 Feb 2022)

Alex321 said:


> If it is, then your house insulation is not good.
> 
> While I wouldn't go quite as low as 40,


Your actual words  which suggests you probably do need to read that. However I understand your irritation.
My objective was to help you not irritate you. I will leave you alone to 'blunder on' now.


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## Alex321 (21 Feb 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> Your actual words  which suggests you probably do need to read that. However I understand your irritation.
> My objective was to help you not irritate you. I will leave you alone to 'blunder on' now.


Thank you for demonstrating I was correct in stating I had said I wanted it hotter than 40


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## mjr (21 Feb 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> All condensing system boilers only have one water temperature setting ! Independent control of domestic hot water comes from a thermostat affixed to the hot water storage tank. This thermostat controls the 'motorised' 3 way valve. When the temperature set on the hot water storage tank thermostat is 'satisfied' the water flow thru the tank is cut off. This allows high temperature water settings on your boiler stat without dangerously hot water from your hot water taps.


All of them? Do no systems still have the boiler loop passing through coils in the hot water tank and the central heating tank, enabling both hot water and central heating to heat simultaneously, the temperatures to be wildly different and independent from the boiler loop temperature, and both central heating and boiler loop to contain performance chemicals?



> Your earlier comment about 40 degree temp water from your taps ! Your domestic hot water needs to be set at a minimum of 60 degrees
> or you are at risk from Legionnaires' disease
> Suggest you read this:- Legionnaires' disease


An old chestnut based on half-understood outdated advice for a different situation. 40 degrees at-tap will mean a higher temperature in the tank, even with pipe insulation. In the high-40s, legionella does not multiply.

That HSE advice to store hot water at 60 degrees contradicts NHS advice for 46 degree maximum at-tap water temperature to avoid scalding people, especially people with reduced skin sensation. HSE seem to think 50 degrees at-tap is acceptable, which IIRC is about 90-second scalding! And even that is only achieved by kludging expensive thermostatic valves in, which can't be used on many gravity-fed systems, which means you need an even more expensive electric pump. It is unrealistic and wasteful old advice from HSE which should be updated in the face of the climate and energy crises.

HSE's mainly about workplaces and I doubt many homes comply with most risking scalding by omitting the valves, or risking legionella if someone's turned the tank down to fix scalding hot tap water. Do you actually follow that HSE advice for your home? For example, when did you last drain your hot water cylinder and check it?

The latest advice is that home water tanks should be heated to 60 degrees for an hour every 1-2 weeks (legionella dies in about half that time at 60 degrees) and that it's far more important that the hot water system should contain no dead legs where legionella can grow, even with a 60 degree tank. Modern heating controllers have a legionella cycle on them to manage the tank, plus a thermometer so they can avoid it sitting lukewarm. Much better than the old brainless thermostats with almost no gap between off and on temperatures that then got linked to a timer to stop it reheating too often, with the end result of water held in the 32-42° ideal growth range.

Heat your tank to 60 every time any water is taken out of it if you want, and install expensive valves and pumps to cool it to safe use temperature, but please don't try to scare everyone into spending all that.


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## Scaleyback (21 Feb 2022)

Have a nice day.


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## Roseland triker (24 Feb 2022)

In laws just had their electricity payment increased to £386.26p per month.

There up to date with payment and that's more than doubled....


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## Scaleyback (24 Feb 2022)

Roseland triker said:


> In laws just had their electricity payment increased to £386.26p per month.
> 
> There up to date with payment and that's more than doubled....


I assume they are on whole house electric heating, unless they live in a castle ?


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## Roseland triker (24 Feb 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> I assume they are on whole house electric heating, unless they live in a castle ?


Yeah dumb arses fitted airsource when they built it couple of years ago.
We had airsource in our last house which we sold, really expensive to run . in our new place now for 24months I've fitted external oil boiler and I'm really pleased with the running costs.
Just paid for another tank of oil which will see us through to January at least.


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## Scaleyback (24 Feb 2022)

Roseland triker said:


> Yeah dumb arses fitted airsource when they built it couple of years ago.
> We had airsource in our last house which we sold, really expensive to run . in our new place now for 24months I've fitted external oil boiler and I'm really pleased with the running costs.
> Just paid for another tank of oil which will see us through to January at least.


Hmm ! Heat pumps are heavily 'touted' as the panacea for all environmental 'ills' Kudos, to folk who want to do their 'bit' for the planet
but it seems they will need 'deep pockets' Current technology and costs put heat pumps out of reach for the majority of the population 
and therefore ineffective in the great scheme of things.


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## fossyant (24 Feb 2022)

Bills will now rocket (excuse the pun) with Putin's latest shenanigans


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## Roseland triker (24 Feb 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> Hmm ! Heat pumps are heavily 'touted' as the panacea for all environmental 'ills' Kudos, to folk who want to do their 'bit' for the planet
> but it seems they will need 'deep pockets' Current technology and costs put heat pumps out of reach for the majority of the population
> and therefore ineffective in the great scheme of things.


Having experience of them I'm certainly not bothering again.
Our neighbors had it fitted few months back and are already disliking the costs and poor heat output on demand. 
With our fluctuations in temperature here we need heat on demand not just a static temperature.


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## Roseland triker (24 Feb 2022)

fossyant said:


> Bills will now rocket (excuse the pun) with Putin's latest shenanigans


Yep get as much oil as you can quick!!


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## Scaleyback (24 Feb 2022)

fossyant said:


> Bills will now rocket (excuse the pun) with Putin's latest shenanigans


Difficult to know the effect on UK's gas supply in the near future ? 
Only 3% of the UK's gas comes from Russia, 47% of our gas comes from Europe.
However 40% of Europe's gas comes from Russia, work that one out ?


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## Scaleyback (24 Feb 2022)

Roseland triker said:


> Having experience of them I'm certainly not bothering again.
> Our neighbors had it fitted few months back and are already disliking the costs and poor heat output on demand.
> With our fluctuations in temperature here we need heat on demand not just a static temperature.


I think new build highly insulated houses with underfloor heating is the correct environment for heat pumps.
With perhaps the oldest housing stock in Europe, heat pumps were always going to be difficult to justify in the UK ?


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## Roseland triker (24 Feb 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> I think new build highly insulated houses with underfloor heating is the correct environment for heat pumps.
> With perhaps the oldest housing stock in Europe, heat pumps were always going to be difficult to justify in the UK ?


Yes however the new builds here are equally as expensive to run.. 
It's not effective unless you have a windmill or a PV roof as the electricity consumption is massive


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## MrGrumpy (24 Feb 2022)

There is another guy on a forum elsewhere that has gone full eco mode on his house . Lives somewhere near me as well going by his location. Air source heat pump , PV panels . Battery bank as well. He never said how much it cost but it would be plenty. Justified doing his bit for the environment and he’s saving about a grand a year taking all things into consideration Might see a return in say 40yrs  .


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## Roseland triker (24 Feb 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> There is another guy on a forum elsewhere that has gone full eco mode on his house . Lives somewhere near me as well going by his location. Air source heat pump , PV panels . Battery bank as well. He never said how much it cost but it would be plenty. Justified doing his bit for the environment and he’s saving about a grand a year taking all things into consideration Might see a return in say 40yrs  .


I have a customer that lives off grid. 
Generator diesel, PV groundsource heat pump and a windmill.

He says that the diesel generator was £40k and is used the most ....


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## SpokeyDokey (24 Feb 2022)

70p per litre of oil yesterday - ordered enough to take us through to the start of next winter. 

Beat today's crude oil surge to +100$ per barrel.


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## mjr (24 Feb 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> Hmm ! Heat pumps are heavily 'touted' as the panacea for all environmental 'ills' Kudos, to folk who want to do their 'bit' for the planet
> but it seems they will need 'deep pockets'


Nope. Cheaper than oil to run if set up right, even before the latest surge. There are too many bad installers trying to treat them as boilers and too many users who've never used a good setup so don't realise they've been scammed. It's easier to blame the mature technology that works well in the colder Nordic countries than to accept you were conned. It's seen as foreign and rare here still, so plays into the tabloid scandal story nonsense.



> Current technology and costs put heat pumps out of reach for the majority of the population
> and therefore ineffective in the great scheme of things.


Installation costs on a generally-crap housing stock put it out of reach. I don't know if the government grant reforms in a month will change that and see more smaller cheaper heat pumps developed. The previous scheme favoured bigger homes.


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## mjr (24 Feb 2022)

Roseland triker said:


> Having experience of them I'm certainly not bothering again.
> Our neighbors had it fitted few months back and are already disliking the costs and poor heat output on demand.


Running it "on demand" will suck. It doesn't respond fast enough for that. You should set the heating controller to predict and provide a temperature using weather compensation (and ideally forecasts) and once it's set up, basically leave it alone except for holidays or malfunctions.

Too many installers don't do that basic step, which I understand is mandatory in some countries. Instead, they install an old-fashioned on/off thermostat and fixed high radiator temperatures, wasting their customers' money just so they don't have to explain how it works and why big warm radiators cost less than short bursts of small hot ones.



> With our fluctuations in temperature here we need heat on demand not just a static temperature.


What fluctuations in temperature? The UK has a less extreme climate than many heat pump using countries.


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## Alex321 (24 Feb 2022)

mjr said:


> What fluctuations in temperature? The UK has a less extreme climate than many heat pump using countries.


There is a difference between fluctuating and extreme. The countries which use them a lot tend to have sub-zero temperatures for weeks on end, and are likely to have a much more predictable pattern of when heat is needed.


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## mjr (24 Feb 2022)

Alex321 said:


> There is a difference between fluctuating and extreme. The countries which use them a lot tend to have sub-zero temperatures for weeks on end, and are likely to have a much more predictable pattern of when heat is needed.


Right, but even though heat pump systems react more slowly than thrashed boiler ones, it's still an hour or two to react, not days, so the controllers are quite capable of predicting heat demand well enough. It doesn't really matter if it's 2 instead of 5 out, as long as it's not 2 when 22 was forecast.

Even boiler systems would be cheaper and less polluting if allowed to modulate and run lower-temperature heating with smart controllers.

Is one problem in this country that we've too many people who want to keep going "Ug cold, Ug press button, Ug make fire" instead of something more install-and-forget that can predict when you'll get cold and prevent it?


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## gbb (24 Feb 2022)

I'd be more interested in airsource systems if we actually knew the real cost of implementing them properly.
I assume its not just about the airsource system, proofing most older houses (mine for instance looks like a fairly modest, modern house, but was built late 60s with all the then acceptable, now not really suitable practices), supplementary heating ? upgrades to rads, solar panels ?
I assume there are many facets to it...and each facet is going to cost, is it affordable to the average householder ?

I suspect if you did it properly with a new build it's relatively easy and extremely efficient....on an older house ?


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## Alex321 (24 Feb 2022)

mjr said:


> Is one problem in this country that we've too many people who want to keep going "Ug cold, Ug press button, Ug make fire" instead of something more install-and-forget that can predict when you'll get cold and prevent it?


There is certainly something in that, though I suspect it is as much about not trusting the "can predict when you'll get cold" bit to be at all accurate.


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## Roseland triker (24 Feb 2022)

We can have differences of 25c over a day here. In the morning it can be 8c then by mid afternoon it can be 35c . Add wind and sideways hail the difference can be huge.
A constant temperature inside the house is difficult to achieve so with underfloor airsource heating it's constantly on off on off. 
I find using the oil boiler much better and cheaper to run.


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## Scaleyback (24 Feb 2022)

Roseland triker said:


> We can have differences of 25c over a day here. In the morning it can be 8c then by mid afternoon it can be 35c . Add wind and sideways hail the difference can be huge.
> A constant temperature inside the house is difficult to achieve so with underfloor airsource heating it's constantly on off on off.


Isn't that what a thermostat is for, to keep a relatively even temp ?


----------



## Roseland triker (24 Feb 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> Isn't that what a thermostat is for, to keep a relatively even temp ?


Yes but when the sun comes in the window it ruins the sensor then open the back door and minus 5 blows in it causes the airsource to keep goin on and off. 
This causes demand for the electricity thus costing alot.


Have you ever had airsource heating?


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## Scaleyback (24 Feb 2022)

Roseland triker said:


> Yes but when the sun comes in the window it ruins the sensor then open the back door and minus 5 blows in it causes the airsource to keep goin on and off.
> This causes demand for the electricity thus costing alot.
> 
> 
> Have you ever had airsource heating?


No, no experience of heat pumps. My central heating room thermostat is free standing, (wireless) so even this time of the year the sun can play havoc with it's readings. i just move it out of the sun. It's called ' user intervention '


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## mjr (24 Feb 2022)

gbb said:


> I'd be more interested in airsource systems if we actually knew the real cost of implementing them properly.
> I assume its not just about the airsource system, proofing most older houses (mine for instance looks like a fairly modest, modern house, but was built late 60s with all the then acceptable, now not really suitable practices), supplementary heating ? upgrades to rads, solar panels ?
> I assume there are many facets to it...and each facet is going to cost, is it affordable to the average householder ?


More than "it's not just about the airsource system"! It's not at all about the heat pump system. If you've got a leaky shoot house, it's going to cost you more no matter how you heat it. The only thing a heat pump adds to the problem is a slower heating response time which exposes that you've got a leaky shoot house by being more likely to fail to react fast enough... but blaming the heat pump for that is like saying a water tap is worse than a dung chute because you can't turn the water tap on fast enough to fill a sieve!

It's not affordable enough to the average householder yet. If it wasn't boiler replacement time, with a need to resite both boiler (the exhaust was melting the neighbour's guttering) and oil tank (too close to buildings for modern rules), even the government grants wouldn't have made it economic for us.



> I suspect if you did it properly with a new build it's relatively easy and extremely efficient....on an older house ?


The best new builds should be easy (but even those get cocked up far too often, from what I read: cheap pumps installed badly and left on the factory settings, with no commissioning after the first owner moves in) but our house is a 40-year-old design. Retrofit was not as easy as it should be IMO but it's pretty efficient. Still nowhere near the extremely efficient ones with people reporting 700% efficiency on new-builds where I think they've got all the pipework as short and straight as possible, with the heat-pump indoor units in a ground floor room directly behind the ideally-positioned outdoor unit, powering underfloor heating mostly in neighbouring rooms.



Alex321 said:


> There is certainly something in that, though I suspect it is as much about not trusting the "can predict when you'll get cold" bit to be at all accurate.


Would making manufacturers publish more of the control/prediction program, ideally in something graphical and easy to understand like Node-Red, help with that? Or do we just need more people to experience the better controls like ecodan and homely?



Roseland triker said:


> We can have differences of 25c over a day here. In the morning it can be 8c then by mid afternoon it can be 35c . Add wind and sideways hail the difference can be huge.
> A constant temperature inside the house is difficult to achieve so with underfloor airsource heating it's constantly on off on off.


It should cope with 8 to 35 no problem, taking the edge off the morning chill and then using the hottest afternoon to heat enough water for the night.

I don't have underfloor but everything I've read tells me it should be more constantly on at low power than airsource radiators. If it was on off on off cycling a lot then it sounds like something was malfunctioning. In that situation, heating can eat a lot of money quickly and very few heating systems, whether electric, gas or oil, warn customers soon enough IMO. I guess at least with an oil tank, it can't keep wasting money beyond the tank running out, but that can still be hundreds of pounds!



Roseland triker said:


> Yes but when the sun comes in the window it ruins the sensor then open the back door and minus 5 blows in it causes the airsource to keep goin on and off.
> This causes demand for the electricity thus costing alot.


Don't put the main heating sensors in direct sunlight or near a minus 5 draught!  That'll waste your money no matter how you heat the home. What morons installed the sensors there? And was that where the surveyor recommended or did they ignore the survey?

Nearly every time someone grumbles about heat pumps, it seems to turn out that they had installation errors or were trying to use it as a boiler. Boiler's have got to go soon. We can't keep burning shoot for heat and transport, like that Fully Charged Show episode said.

(edited to fix a typo)


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## ebikeerwidnes (24 Feb 2022)

Our themostat is on the wall in the lounge - but is wireless so we can move it easily if we want to

Problem is that it reacts quite slowly - so it can be set to 20 but them thermometer a few feet below it drops to 19 then 18 then 17 before the thermostat realises and reacts
So we end up knocking it up() to 21 or 22 just to get it to react - then forget and the room gets to warm.
Hopefully the batroom are 'getting done' soon and we will get the whole control system replaced while they are here


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## Roseland triker (24 Feb 2022)

I'm going to drill into the diesel pipeline that runs 70miles underground here if I get stuck....

Got rustled by the mod last time I was digging near it so the task could be lucrative


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## ebikeerwidnes (24 Feb 2022)

Roseland triker said:


> I'm going to drill into the diesel pipeline that *runs 70miles underground* here if I get stuck....
> 
> Got rustled by the mod last time I was digging near it so the task could be lucrative


That's a long old drill you have there!


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## Roseland triker (24 Feb 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> That's a long old drill you have there!


 could probably edit that


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## mjr (24 Feb 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> Problem is that it reacts quite slowly - [...] Hopefully the batroom are 'getting done' soon and we will get the whole control system replaced while they are here


See if you can get a proactive control system that looks at outdoor temperature (and ideally forecasts, time of day, number of people in, ...) instead of a reactive one. By the time your reactive thermostat sees the room temperature drop as far as it sounds like it does, it's already too late and playing catch-up, leaving you cold for a while until it brings the temperature back up.

A proactive system should see the outdoor temperature drop, know that your home will now lose heat more quickly (it gets programmed at setup with an approximation of how quickly it loses heat and some systems learn more during use) and adjust the heating (usually the flow temperature) to compensate before you know anything about it. I can't recommend it enough.


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## Scaleyback (24 Feb 2022)

Roseland triker said:


> I'm going to drill into the diesel pipeline that runs 70miles underground here if I get stuck....
> 
> Got rustled by the mod last time I was digging near it so the task could be lucrative


I'm betting Gas Meter fraud is going to explode (pun intended) with the current cost of energy. I worked for British Gas for many years, even 'back in the day' of affordable energy scallywags were bypassing gas meters with hosepipes etc. Yes, sometimes blowing themselves (and others) up.


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## fossyant (24 Feb 2022)

Roseland triker said:


> I'm going to drill into the diesel pipeline that runs 70miles underground here if I get stuck....
> 
> Got rustled by the mod last time I was digging near it so the task could be lucrative



Anyone in South Wales might be able to tap into the gas pipeline from Milford Haven to Gloucestershire - I worked for the company that put it in 15-20 years ago. Might go pop under the pressure though if you drill into it.


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## ebikeerwidnes (24 Feb 2022)

fossyant said:


> Anyone in South Wales might be able to tap into the gas pipeline from Milford Haven to Gloucestershire - I worked for the company that put it in 15-20 years ago. *Might go pop *under the pressure though if you drill into it.


I'd be more worried bout it going BANG


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## MrGrumpy (24 Feb 2022)

Not sure if this was posted in this thread or another forum. Found it interesting none the less .

https://myhomefarm.co.uk/potential-air-source-heat-pump-running-cost-issue


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## FishFright (24 Feb 2022)

Roseland triker said:


> Yes but when the sun comes in the window it ruins the sensor then open the back door and minus 5 blows in it causes the airsource to keep goin on and off.
> This causes demand for the electricity thus costing alot.
> 
> 
> Have you ever had airsource heating?



You don't have the boiler and airsource heating running off the same thermostat do you ?

My friends setup is ground source but he has that running as as base heating with the gas boiler only used when the temperature drops below a minimum temperature.


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## gbb (24 Feb 2022)

mjr said:


> That HSE advice to store hot water at 60 degrees contradicts NHS advice for 46 degree maximum at-tap water temperature to avoid scalding people, especially people with reduced skin sensation. HSE seem to think 50 degrees at-tap is acceptable, which IIRC is about 90-second scalding! And even that is only achieved by kludging expensive thermostatic valves in, which can't be used on many gravity-fed systems, which means you need an even more expensive electric pump. It is unrealistic and wasteful old advice from HSE which should be updated in the face of the climate and energy crises.
> 
> HSE's mainly about workplaces and I doubt many homes comply with most risking scalding by omitting the valves, or risking legionella if someone's turned the tank down to fix scalding hot tap water. Do you actually follow that HSE advice for your home? For example, when did you last drain your hot water cylinder and check it?
> 
> ...


The tank (or boiler out) temp at 60c has always been standard in my workplaces. Return temps, always aim to be 50c and in that, you can (almost) guarantee being legionella free. But of course these are commercial circulatory systems, risk assessments are carried out to identify (and if neccessary remove) deadlegs, low use taps, and consideration given to the length if pipe feeding a tap and how long it takes to purge the cold water before the hot works its way through, there is a preferable maximum time limit to reduce the risk again.

Not sure how all this compares to domestic systems but 60 at the boiler /tank seems quite normal IME. As you say, how you achieve a 'safe' temperature at the tap will be much harder in domestic settings, in industry, mixers, then the minimum pipe length to tap is pretty standard to give a water temp that wont scald.


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## midlife (24 Feb 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Not sure if this was posted in this thread or another forum. Found it interesting none the less .
> 
> https://myhomefarm.co.uk/potential-air-source-heat-pump-running-cost-issue



Isn't electric about 28 pence per kwh at the moment? Sort of blows a hole in their 11p kwh projection?


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## fossyant (24 Feb 2022)

midlife said:


> Isn't electric about 28 pence per kwh at the moment? Sort of blows a hole in their 11p kwh projection?


About 20p on variable as of my bill two weeks ago....


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## mjr (24 Feb 2022)

fossyant said:


> About 20p on variable as of my bill two weeks ago....


Yes, 28p is the cap from April. Note that oil was too expensive for heating at 50p/l. It's now 75p/l and rising. Farked either way. I think Mars ks now burning veg oil but that won't scale to the whole country.


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## Roseland triker (25 Feb 2022)

FishFright said:


> You don't have the boiler and airsource heating running off the same thermostat do you ?
> 
> My friends setup is ground source but he has that running as as base heating with the gas boiler only used when the temperature drops below a minimum temperature.


No I don't have airsource now as I said oil.


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## Ming the Merciless (25 Feb 2022)

I’m going to fire up my fusion reactors


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## Roseland triker (25 Feb 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> I’m going to fire up my fusion reactors


There's one in our harbour I suspect


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## Ming the Merciless (25 Feb 2022)

Roseland triker said:


> There's one in our harbour I suspect



Hot water as well, sorted.


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## Roseland triker (25 Feb 2022)

I'll go out and look later. All the working boats are in shallow water and the navy ships are running up engines


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## Scaleyback (25 Feb 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> I’m going to fire up my fusion reactors


Can I come and bask in your glow ?


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## fossyant (25 Feb 2022)

Roseland triker said:


> I'll go out and look later. All the working boats are in shallow water and the navy ships are running up engines


Nuclear rather than Fusion


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## fossyant (25 Feb 2022)

fossyant said:


> Nuclear rather than Fusion


You need Marty McFly's Delorian for that.


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## dave r (25 Feb 2022)

I've had my notification from OVO, it looks like my bill is likely go up about £40 a month.


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## Roseland triker (25 Feb 2022)

dave r said:


> I've had my notification from OVO, it looks like my bill is likely go up about £40 a month.


So what's the percentage increase?


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## GuyBoden (25 Feb 2022)

I've found that if you turn the central heating off for longer periods, the bill is cheaper, but obviously the house is much colder. You can wear more woolly jumpers to keep warm, but beware, in this cold and damp environment, the toxic black mold starts to grow on walls, ceilings and especially bathrooms, all adding up to making your life generally more unpleasant and unhealthy.


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## Roseland triker (25 Feb 2022)

You could open a window to ventilate your mouldy air out


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## GuyBoden (25 Feb 2022)

Roseland triker said:


> You could open a window to ventilate your mouldy air out


And, then let the colder air in, you just can't win.


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## Roseland triker (25 Feb 2022)

GuyBoden said:


> And, then let the colder air in, you just can't win.


It can be difficult. 
I find the dehumidifier keeps the house quite warm and dry without the heating on.
Also reasonable price to run a few hours a day


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## dave r (25 Feb 2022)

Roseland triker said:


> So what's the percentage increase?



A lot, my current DD is £91 a month, when I'm back on my desktop I'll look at the E-Mail again.


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## gbb (25 Feb 2022)

GuyBoden said:


> I've found that if you turn the central heating off for longer periods, the bill is cheaper, but obviously the house is much colder. You can wear more woolly jumpers to keep warm, but beware, in this cold and damp environment, the toxic black mold starts to grow on walls, ceilings and especially bathrooms, all adding up to making your life generally more unpleasant and unhealthy.


Ventilation is the only realistic answer to preventing it.(assuming you have no underlying dampcourse problems or leaky gutters)
Our heating only goes on sporadically, but we do like windows open, particually at night.
Two main sources of moisture in our house , the bathroom and kitchen.
I never fitted an extractor over the cooker (my bad) so Sundays in particular, there is a lot of steam build up on cupboards. Usual answer is to put a desktop fan on the bench and open the window nearby. Its a bit back to front but for some reason, my wife hates extractors with a vengeange, i don't get it but ...

Bathroom, we bathe daily but always leave a door open or a window just ajar (again, there's no extraction in there) , luckily we have never suffered mould in this house.


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## gbb (25 Feb 2022)

Feeling rather glad we're around £700 in credit with the energy suppliers, this year coming (and the last few months) seem to be conspiring against ordinary folk
I can see petrol going up again, gas, electric, food, these are tough times for the less fortunate.


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## Roseland triker (25 Feb 2022)

gbb said:


> Feeling rather glad we're around £700 in credit with the energy suppliers, this year coming (and the last few months) seem to be conspiring against ordinary folk
> I can see petrol going up again, gas, electric, food, these are tough times for the less fortunate.


I would get that credit in my bank if I wa you


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## PaulSB (25 Feb 2022)

GuyBoden said:


> I've found that if you turn the central heating off for longer periods, the bill is cheaper, but obviously the house is much colder. You can wear more woolly jumpers to keep warm, but beware, in this cold and damp environment, the toxic black mold starts to grow on walls, ceilings and especially bathrooms, all adding up to making your life generally more unpleasant and unhealthy.


Surely mold only grows in poorly ventilated situations?


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## FishFright (25 Feb 2022)

Roseland triker said:


> No I don't have airsource now as I said oil.



Sorry , I misread the post .


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## Jenkins (25 Feb 2022)

I've had the email from Bulb about the increases from 1at April - my monthly bill is going up by 40%, with the worst parts of the increase being gas up by 80% per kw/h and the daily standing charge for electricity going up by 57%.


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## GuyBoden (27 Feb 2022)

With the gas supply from Russia not looking like a good long term strategy for the EU, I'm hoping that this will encourage huge investments in Green Energy and Nuclear energy sources. Obviously, we need to turn the tap off on Russian gas.


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## Roseland triker (27 Feb 2022)

GuyBoden said:


> With the gas supply from Russia not looking like a good long term strategy for the EU, I'm hoping that this will encourage huge investments in Green Energy and Nuclear energy sources. Obviously, we need to turn the tap off on Russian gas.


It's ok the Africans are putting in a heated oil pipeline for us now.


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## Jody (28 Feb 2022)

Just had my email from Bulb to advise electricity is going up to approximately £170 a month


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## Scaleyback (28 Feb 2022)

Jody said:


> Just had my email from Bulb to advise my electricity bill is going up to approximately £170 a month


Are you all electric ? i.e heating ?


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## Jody (28 Feb 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> Are you all electric ? i.e heating ?



Solid fuel which also heats some of the water up


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## MrGrumpy (28 Feb 2022)

Contemplating changing our windows for new double glazing . Old windows are probably not the best, some leak as well and one or two at drafty. Already got new back door and utility doors ordered. Which should help with as kitchen can get cold.


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## Electric_Andy (28 Feb 2022)

My partner's bill has shot up to £185/month (gas and electric). She's trying to keep the heating on very low now and use her wood burner in the lounge more, as my Dad had a huge (dead) oak tree fall down in the storm so a few years worth of wood is coming our way if we help chop it up.

I'm still in credit, but I don't know how much I'm actually using becasue EDF still have not created a bill online. I only know I'm paying £52/month for dual fuel, but for all I know I could be using £80/month and eating into my credit


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## vickster (28 Feb 2022)

Electric_Andy said:


> I'm still in credit, but I don't know how much I'm actually using becasue EDF still have not created a bill online. I only know I'm paying £52/month for dual fuel, but for all I know I could be using £80/month and eating into my credit


I'd say almost certainly you are unless you are on a fixed tariff and/or very frugal with the gas and leccy


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## Scaleyback (28 Feb 2022)

Jody said:


> Just had my email from Bulb to advise electricity is going up to approximately £170 a month



Wow ! That seems a lot if you do not rely on electric heating.


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## Jody (28 Feb 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> Wow ! That seems a lot if you do not rely on electric heating.



Family of 4 and everything that goes along with it.

Wouldn't mind but it was only £40-60 a few years ago


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## Scaleyback (28 Feb 2022)

Hmm, it must be bloody hard to raise children in this current financial situation. I remember just trying to 'teach' them to turn off unused lights
was a thankless task. Nowadays it almost becomes essential. 
Tumble dryers, dishwashers 'et al' all sucking up the electricity.


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## Jody (28 Feb 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> Hmm, it must be bloody hard to raise children in this current financial situation. I remember just trying to 'teach' them to turn off unused lights
> was a thankless task. Nowadays it almost becomes essential.
> Tumble dryers, dishwashers 'et al' all sucking up the electricity.



TV's, Tablets, games consoles, PC's, laptops for homework.....

It's hard enough to get them to shut the back door, never mind turning appliances off


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## jowwy (28 Feb 2022)

Jody said:


> TV's, Tablets, games consoles, PC's, laptops for homework.....
> 
> It's hard enough to get them to shut the back door, never mind turning appliances off


Get a solar panel out in the garden for charging the laptops, tablets and consoles…………but it still seems pretty high


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## mjr (28 Feb 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> Hmm, it must be bloody hard to raise children in this current financial situation. I remember just trying to 'teach' them to turn off unused lights
> was a thankless task. Nowadays it almost becomes essential.
> Tumble dryers, dishwashers 'et al' all sucking up the electricity.


Nowadays, you just tell your smart home hub to switch the light off when the last child's mobile device leaves a room


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## youngoldbloke (1 Mar 2022)

Our experience - £160 per month electricity DD currently. New build. Double glazed. Air source heat-pump, underfloor heating on ground floor, rads first floor, plus towel rails in bathrooms. Thermostats in every room. All electric. It has taken over 12 months to become familiar with room settings required, but finally getting the hang of it. Main gripe is that the system is noisy! The main manifold is situated centrally understairs and the pump is audible when heating comes on. The house has minimal glazing on the north side - only 3 small windows - and the heat gain from numerous large windows on the south side on a sunny day is fantastic. Sunshine on a cold winter day will raise the room temperatures to 22 degrees. Insulation is as required by the regs, but I believe the system would work even better if additional insulation was added in the roof space. I can't see how an efficient heat pump system could be installed in an existing property without major alterations. However there has been very little discussion about replacing gas combi boilers with electric ones, which appear to be increasingly available.


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## numbnuts (1 Mar 2022)

youngoldbloke said:


> Our experience - £160 per month electricity DD currently. New build. Double glazed. Air source heat-pump, underfloor heating on ground floor, rads first floor, plus towel rails in bathrooms. Thermostats in every room. All electric. It has taken over 12 months to become familiar with room settings required, but finally getting the hang of it. Main gripe is that the system is noisy! The main manifold is situated centrally understairs and the pump is audible when heating comes on. The house has minimal glazing on the north side - only 3 small windows - and the heat gain from numerous large windows on the south side on a sunny day is fantastic. Sunshine on a cold winter day will raise the room temperatures to 22 degrees. Insulation is as required by the regs, but I believe the system would work even better if additional insulation was added in the roof space. I can't see how an efficient heat pump system could be installed in an existing property without major alterations. *However there has been very little discussion about replacing gas combi boilers with electric ones, which appear to be increasingly available.*


 
I rent from housing association and was taking to one of their gas engineers the other day and he said electric boilers will replace your gas one and it maybe as early as next year, but he said the cost will be massive if you want heating. 
PS I've still not had the heating on this winter so far so good


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## jowwy (1 Mar 2022)

numbnuts said:


> I rent from housing association and was taking to one of their gas engineers the other day and he said electric boilers will replace your gas one and it maybe as early as next year, but he said the cost will be massive if you want heating.
> PS I've still not had the heating on this winter so far so good


not sure what association your with, but that information is not what's being said in wales......it would cost way too much to replace all gas boilers with electric


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## Scaleyback (1 Mar 2022)

youngoldbloke said:


> Our experience - £160 per month electricity DD currently. New build. Double glazed. Air source heat-pump, underfloor heating on ground floor, rads first floor, plus towel rails in bathrooms. Thermostats in every room. All electric. It has taken over 12 months to become familiar with room settings required, but finally getting the hang of it. Main gripe is that the system is noisy! The main manifold is situated centrally understairs and the pump is audible when heating comes on. The house has minimal glazing on the north side - only 3 small windows - and the heat gain from numerous large windows on the south side on a sunny day is fantastic. Sunshine on a cold winter day will raise the room temperatures to 22 degrees. Insulation is as required by the regs, but I believe the system would work even better if additional insulation was added in the roof space. I can't see how an efficient heat pump system could be installed in an existing property without major alterations. However there has been very little discussion about replacing gas combi boilers with electric ones, which appear to be increasingly available.


That's interesting. My situation
I had a new condensing gas boiler installed 2 years ago, a Viessmann (German made) best dam boiler I have ever had (I'm 75 I've had a few)
We have a 3 bed detached house built 1983. Cav wall insulation, double glazing, loft insulation but according to latest advice probably not enough !. We are retired, home a lot, obviously, and our heating is on from 6a.m - 10 pm. every day. Thermostat set at 21 from 6 a.m until we get 'moving' say. . . 9 am. Then set at 20 degrees until sunset when it goes back up to 21. These 'rules' not set in stone, if we are cold, heating gets turned up. Currently my Direct Debit is £150.00 a month. I 'upped' this recently from £100.00, because I knew I would no doubt fall behind. 
This is currently sufficient for Gas and Electric but come April I am probably going to have to raise it again. N;B I am with Octopus Energy, I can freely adjust my DD whenever I want. (I doubt I would be allowed to drop it below what Octopus deem sufficient) We are fortunate that we can afford the energy, however I don't just 'let it rip' I don't like it (£80.00) a month covered us last year !. We have family with children who cannot afford it and we regularly help them with their bills. What a sad state of affairs, I believe every human has a right to a roof over their head, food in their belly's and the ability to keep warm. I know . . . I know, I'm not living in the real world.


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## mjr (1 Mar 2022)

youngoldbloke said:


> Our experience - £160 per month electricity DD currently. New build. Double glazed. Air source heat-pump, underfloor heating on ground floor, rads first floor, plus towel rails in bathrooms. Thermostats in every room. All electric. It has taken over 12 months to become familiar with room settings required, but finally getting the hang of it. Main gripe is that the system is noisy! The main manifold is situated centrally understairs and the pump is audible when heating comes on.


What size house and what power heat pump, if you don't mind saying? With your cost and the reported noise despite the huge advantages your new build has over my 1980s, either your house is big (so big pump to drive the system) or it sounds like the system flow may be being throttled by too many thermostats which would also make noise.


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## jowwy (1 Mar 2022)

have to be honest, if i was building my own house right now. i would smash it full of solar, multiple battery banks for winter and try not to use grid electric or gas as much as possible........i would even put a small windmill up for winter months too, when it blowing a hooly


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## Electric_Andy (1 Mar 2022)

vickster said:


> I'd say almost certainly you are unless you are on a fixed tariff and/or very frugal with the gas and leccy


Yeah I have no idea, I was on £54/month which covered both last year, and I built up £120 credit. I'm now £240 in credit but as I say, I don't have a bill yet since forced to change to EDF. I don't have a tumble drier or dishwasher, my heating is set at 19 degrees from 06.30 to 20.30.

For anyone interested, my tariff is:

Electricity: 28.41p per kWh and 51.62p per day standing charge.
Gas: 7.47p per kWh and 27.22p standing charge

Looking at national averages, I think that is more expensive than most, but I can't change yet


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## gbb (1 Mar 2022)

youngoldbloke said:


> Our experience - £160 per month electricity DD currently. New build. Double glazed. Air source heat-pump, underfloor heating on ground floor, rads first floor, plus towel rails in bathrooms. Thermostats in every room. All electric. It has taken over 12 months to become familiar with room settings required, but finally getting the hang of it. Main gripe is that the system is noisy! The main manifold is situated centrally understairs and the pump is audible when heating comes on. The house has minimal glazing on the north side - only 3 small windows - and the heat gain from numerous large windows on the south side on a sunny day is fantastic. Sunshine on a cold winter day will raise the room temperatures to 22 degrees. Insulation is as required by the regs, but I believe the system would work even better if additional insulation was added in the roof space. I can't see how an efficient heat pump system could be installed in an existing property without major alterations. However there has been very little discussion about replacing gas combi boilers with electric ones, which appear to be increasingly available.


£160 per month just for electricity ? I assume you have no or very low gas use ?
We're paying that for dual fuel, standard boiler with a hot water tank. Granted we don't use the heating that much but do use a lot of hot water.

Unless i'm missing something, while the eco impact of your system is good, the financials are'nt that good surely ?


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## youngoldbloke (1 Mar 2022)

mjr said:


> What size house and what power heat pump, if you don't mind saying? With your cost and the reported noise despite the huge advantages your new build has over my 1980s, either your house is big (so big pump to drive the system) or it sounds like the system flow may be being throttled by too many thermostats which would also make noise.


House is around 2100 sq. feet. Heat-pump is 7kw and there are 7 separate zones each thermostatically controlled.


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## vickster (1 Mar 2022)

Electric_Andy said:


> Yeah I have no idea, I was on £54/month which covered both last year, and I built up £120 credit. I'm now £240 in credit but as I say, I don't have a bill yet since forced to change to EDF. I don't have a tumble drier or dishwasher, my heating is set at 19 degrees from 06.30 to 20.30.
> 
> For anyone interested, my tariff is:
> 
> ...


You have the heating on all day? Mine stays off in the day unless super cold (I do wfh) and rarely above 18 deg


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## youngoldbloke (1 Mar 2022)

gbb said:


> £160 per month just for electricity ? I assume you have no or very low gas use ?
> We're paying that for dual fuel, standard boiler with a hot water tank. Granted we don't use the heating that much but do use a lot of hot water.
> 
> Unless i'm missing something, while the eco impact of your system is good, the financials are'nt that good surely ?


No gas. Everything electric. Washing machine, tumble drier. I would expect to be in credit at the end of the contract. Shape of all-electric things to come!


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## ianrauk (1 Mar 2022)

Electric_Andy said:


> Electricity: 28.41p per kWh and 51.62p per day standing charge.



That seems a very high standing charge
I'm on E7 
Electricity day unit rate: 26.75p per kWh
Electricity night unit rate: 9.81p per kWh
Daily standing charge: 24.12p per day


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## Jody (1 Mar 2022)

Electric_Andy said:


> Electricity: 28.41p per kWh and 51.62p per day standing charge.



That's higher than my new increased tariff


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## Scaleyback (1 Mar 2022)

My current Tariff is:
Electric 19.64p per Kwh SC 26.45p
Gas 3.73p per Kwh SC 23.85p

I am expecting this to go up in April when Ofgem increase the price cap.
Electric_Andy, are the Tariff prices you are quoting from April 01st ?


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## whyme (1 Mar 2022)

My understanding of the capped tariff from 1 April 22 is Elec daily charge - 45.34ppd, Unit price 28.34pKWh
Gas daily charge - 27.22ppd, unit price 7.37pKWh. The cap only applies to the standard variable tariff, if you are on anything else the cap does not apply. 
I am still waiting for my supplier to break the bad news and tell me they want to double my costs when my current fixed finishes on 31 Mar


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## geocycle (1 Mar 2022)

Ours has gone from £91 per month dual fuel to £145 with eon. This is green electric and carbon offset gas. The standing charge is included. According to eon they have to show a standing charge by law but it has little relation to the infrastructure as you might expect.


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## Electric_Andy (1 Mar 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> My current Tariff is:
> Electric 19.64p per Kwh SC 26.45p
> Gas 3.73p per Kwh SC 23.85p
> 
> ...


That's my tariff that I looked up today. I'm on the welcome tariff because my old supplier went bust.


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## Scaleyback (1 Mar 2022)

If you are not on a fixed tariff we all have to expect our energy prices to rise by a minimum of £693.00 per annum on April 01st.


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## classic33 (1 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> not sure what association your with, but that information is not what's being said in wales......it would cost way too much to replace all gas boilers with electric


There's a fair few that are actually banning the use of gas appliances in their properties. 

One of the local one's is doing that now.
Any of your current gas appliances fail, testing is done by their contractors at the start of the year, it's to be replaced with electric. They'll not consider repair.


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## jowwy (1 Mar 2022)

classic33 said:


> There's a fair few that are actually banning the use of gas appliances in their properties.
> 
> One of the local one's is doing that now.
> Any of your current gas appliances fail, testing is done by their contractors at the start of the year, it's to be replaced with electric. They'll not consider repair.


And then add water heating tanks too??? Doesnt make sense, especially with the current cost with electric over gas….pushing their tenants even further into fuel poverty.


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## classic33 (1 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> And then add water heating tanks too??? Doesnt make sense, especially with the current cost with electric over gas….pushing their tenants even further into fuel poverty.


They don't let something like that bother them.


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## mjr (1 Mar 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> If you are not on a fixed tariff we all have to expect our energy prices to rise by a minimum of £693.00 per annum on April 01st.


That's not how the cap works. If your bills were less than about £1500/year, it'll go up by less than that then.

People might also like to remember that the capped rate varies by region.


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## mjr (1 Mar 2022)

youngoldbloke said:


> House is around 2100 sq. feet. Heat-pump is 7kw and there are 7 separate zones each thermostatically controlled.


Yeah, 50% bigger house with a 15% smaller heat pump. Such are the advantages of newer buildings! So that may be a rather beefy circulation pump. I wonder if there's a quieter alternative.


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## GuyBoden (2 Mar 2022)

I remember looking into the science behind ground source heat pumps about 30 years ago, but I didn't think they would be efficient with the timber hollow ground floor I have in my home.

https://www.sciencefocus.com/science/how-does-a-ground-source-heat-pump-work/


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## mjr (2 Mar 2022)

GuyBoden said:


> I remember looking into the science behind ground source heat pumps about 30 years ago, but I didn't think they would be efficient with the timber hollow ground floor I have in my home.


It would still be more efficient than your current heating is with a hollow timber ground floor. It may not be economic for you yet, though.


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## GuyBoden (2 Mar 2022)

mjr said:


> It would still be more efficient than your current heating is with a hollow timber ground floor. It may not be economic for you yet, though.


Yes, it maybe just a matter of time and insulating underneath the floor, so less heat escapes into the hollow ground floor void.


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## presta (2 Mar 2022)

GuyBoden said:


> I've found that if you turn the central heating off for longer periods, the bill is cheaper, but obviously the house is much colder. You can wear more woolly jumpers to keep warm, but beware, in this cold and damp environment, the toxic black mold starts to grow on walls, ceilings and especially bathrooms, all adding up to making your life generally more unpleasant and unhealthy.


I tried switching the CH off and going back to heating just one room by electric for four years. It was freezing cold, and damp, and it didn't save anything:






The top of my coffee table in the lounge delaminated where the damp got into it.


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## vickster (2 Mar 2022)

Piqued my interest to see what I’m paying (Octopus super green fixed until Oct 2023)
Leccy
24.8p /kWh
24.03p/day standing order 
Gas 
5.89p/kWh
26.10/day standing order

I chose the green tariff, a smidge more


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## DCLane (2 Mar 2022)

I've had a look at mine, like @vickster , and I'm on a 2-year fixed until September 2023:

Electrickery:
19.21p/kWh, 26.82p/day standing order

Gaseous:
3.77p/kWh, 26.12p/day standing order

I'm on the green tariff as well, paying a bit more for the standing order, but less for use. As there's three of us here and we do use quite a bit I'm relieved not to be stung by price increases.


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## Electric_Andy (3 Mar 2022)

My other problem is that I have to leave my top bedroom window open for most of the morning, whilst the heating is on. Otherwise I get a 2inchx2foot strip of damp/mould above my window. I've just had an e-mail from EDF saying that my costs will go up from April:

Current Spend: £467.97 (Electric) £230.37 (Gas
From April 1st £680.62 £339.92

Nowt we can do I suppose, I'm luckier than most in that my useage is low because I mostly live on my own, but I also work from home so need to be warm else I can't type properly


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## fossyant (3 Mar 2022)

Electric_Andy said:


> My other problem is that I have to leave my top bedroom window open for most of the morning, whilst the heating is on. Otherwise I get a 2inchx2foot strip of damp/mould above my window. I've just had an e-mail from EDF saying that my costs will go up from April:
> 
> Current Spend: £467.97 (Electric) £230.37 (Gas
> From April 1st £680.62 £339.92
> ...



May be worth investing in a de-humidifier - they also increase the heating efficiency by reducing the moisture in the air - i.e. less to heat.


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## jowwy (3 Mar 2022)

Electric_Andy said:


> My other problem is that I have to leave my top bedroom window open for most of the morning, whilst the heating is on. Otherwise I get a 2inchx2foot strip of damp/mould above my window. I've just had an e-mail from EDF saying that my costs will go up from April:
> 
> Current Spend: £467.97 (Electric) £230.37 (Gas
> From April 1st £680.62 £339.92
> ...


why do have such a damp problem causing all that mold???


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## PaulSB (3 Mar 2022)

Had the notification from British Gas yesterday:
August 2021 People's Energy - £900pa
January 2022 BG - £1680pa
April 2022 BG - £2205pa

I'm wondering about options to fix as if Putin turns the gas off to Europe we will possibly be looking at £3000+


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## rualexander (3 Mar 2022)

Current : elec £380, gas £400, total £65 per month

From April : elec £600, gas £680, total £107 per month

Up until People's Energy went bust last year I was paying £53 per month and still managed to accumulate £100 credit.
So costs doubling over six months!

Was moved to BG so guess I'll need to shop around now.


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## MontyVeda (3 Mar 2022)

We had the letter today off Eon-Next this morning;

elec standing charge from 29p to 48p per day
elec unit rate kWh from 21p to 29.5p
gas standing charge from 31p to 32p per day
gas unit rate kWh from 4.2p to 7.7p

...all in all, estimated to increase around £1200 a year


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## Electric_Andy (3 Mar 2022)

fossyant said:


> May be worth investing in a de-humidifier - they also increase the heating efficiency by reducing the moisture in the air - i.e. less to heat.


I have one in my spare room which I use to dry clothes, but I might have to get another. Weird thing is, there's a tiny bit of mould in my spare room as well. I guess the house is just not very well ventilated, so I'll have to start leaving windows open a crack


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## Electric_Andy (3 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> why do have such a damp problem causing all that mold???


dunno, poor ventilation I guess. It's only upstairs so I'm guessing all the moist warm air rises to the to pfloor and has nowhere to go. I do leave my window open a tad when I can but then the house is freezing and the heating comes on for most of the day


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## Milkfloat (3 Mar 2022)

Electric_Andy said:


> I have one in my spare room which I use to dry clothes, but I might have to get another. Weird thing is, there's a tiny bit of mould in my spare room as well. I guess the house is just not very well ventilated, so I'll have to start leaving windows open a crack


What sort of humidity reading do you see. Anything 60% or above and you have chance of mould. I just my dehumidifier set at 55% and it just kicks in when needed. Sometimes that is 8 hours a day sometimes not at all.


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## PaulSB (3 Mar 2022)

I took a look at a 12 month fix. My variable is forecast by BG at £2200 from April.

BG wouldn't quote and those that did were £3400 to £3800pa. Only one way energy prices are going.


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## GuyBoden (3 Mar 2022)

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94Uq3jbIGHg


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## Electric_Andy (3 Mar 2022)

Milkfloat said:


> What sort of humidity reading do you see. Anything 60% or above and you have chance of mould. I just my dehumidifier set at 55% and it just kicks in when needed. Sometimes that is 8 hours a day sometimes not at all.


Don't know, it's an older one so no readout


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## gbb (3 Mar 2022)

I assume January's bill, gas and electric, total around £145
February's bill, as above, total £117, which seems extraordinarily good.

Heating is sporadic and occasional, just on when its particually cold out. Hot water is heavily used, we both bathe every night.
Current monthly payment to Bulb is (iirc) £140, they've just recommended it go up to £199.


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## gbb (3 Mar 2022)

Electric_Andy said:


> dunno, poor ventilation I guess. It's only upstairs so I'm guessing all the moist warm air rises to the to pfloor and has nowhere to go. I do leave my window open a tad when I can but then the house is freezing and the heating comes on for most of the day


I suspect some houses are just prone to it. The only house we ever had that suffered damp was one where it always concentrated near a particular downstairs window. Reasonable to assume there may have been a sealing issue but we never found out for sure. Devils own stuff to get rid of is damp, I hated that house.


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## Scaleyback (3 Mar 2022)

gbb said:


> I suspect some houses are just prone to it.


I think I know what you mean, but maybe you have chosen the wrong words ? " some houses just prone to it " sounds like a toss of a coin.

Damp, assuming all external causes have been ruled out ? eg: roof problems, leaking gutters, poor brickwork/pointing etc then damp/condensation and mould within the home are products of the internal conditions. It is a complicated subject but you need to have an understanding of the 'Dew Point' and the relative humidity indoors. A freezing cold house will suffer little condensation and subsequent damp because the colder the air the less moisture it can hold.
Likewise the warmer the air the more moisture it can hold.
In the opposite scenario warm all of your house to a sufficient level and you will not suffer condensation and subsequent damp because all internal surfaces will be above the 'Dew Point' and the moisture will be retained in the warm air. Many people have warm houses but can suffer damp on external walls, maybe behind a bedroom wardrobe ? This because that wall has poor air circulation, wall temperature is below the 'Dew Point' and the relative humidity is high, so condensation forms on that surface. So to help to cure your problem think about:
1. Adjusting living conditions, try to cut down/out drying wet clothes indoors, running baths with open doors, boiling saucepans without ventilation etc to help control humidity
2. Sufficient house warming to eliminate/reduce cold spots.
3. Adequate ventilation to remove moisture laden air.

Like I said it's complicated. 

My apologies if you know all this, I'm just trying to help !


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## Milkfloat (3 Mar 2022)

Electric_Andy said:


> Don't know, it's an older one so no readout


You can get some relatively cheap gauges, obviously they won’t turn the machine on/off for you but at least you will know when to run the dehumidifier.


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## Scaleyback (4 Mar 2022)

fossyant said:


> May be worth investing in a de-humidifier - they also increase the heating efficiency by reducing the moisture in the air - i.e. less to heat.


We have a small de-humidifer, suitable for a single room. Used when my wife has to dry clothes indoors. We do not have a tumble dryer. I have to say the de-humidifer works brilliantly. Keep the doors closed in the 'drying room' to contain the humidity. Keep some heat in the room to assist quick drying and the clothes dry surprisingly quick. When you see the amount of water taken out of the air ! Well . . It's like the 1st time you run a newly purchased Dyson Vac over what you thought was a clean carpet !


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## jowwy (4 Mar 2022)

just had my february bill through - £47 electric , £54 gas


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## Scaleyback (4 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> just had my february bill through - £47 electric , £54 gas


You going to send what your saving on the average bill to Ukraine ?


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## jowwy (4 Mar 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> You going to send what your saving on the average bill to Ukraine ?


no


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## fossyant (4 Mar 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> We have a small de-humidifer, suitable for a single room. Used when my wife has to dry clothes indoors. We do not have a tumble dryer. I have to say the de-humidifer works brilliantly. Keep the doors closed in the 'drying room' to contain the humidity. Keep some heat in the room to assist quick drying and the clothes dry surprisingly quick. When you see the amount of water taken out of the air ! Well . . It's like the 1st time you run a newly purchased Dyson Vac over what you thought was a clean carpet !


We're back to using a de-humidifier for drying - we've bought a new one (old one now in garage as the buttons won't let you adjust humidity) - just got to get daughter off using the dryer - cycling kit currently on the 'airer' in the conservatory where I'm working, with the de-humidifier on. Looks like Widow Twanky's laundry - just hope there are no Team's calls today.


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## Scaleyback (4 Mar 2022)

jowwy said:


> no


I was trying to elicit a witty, funny response. It fell on 'stoney ground' didn't it ? . . . . . Let me guess . . . . Yes.


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## jowwy (4 Mar 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> I was trying to elicit a witty, funny response. It fell on 'stoney ground' didn't it ? . . . . . Let me guess . . . . Yes.


it did im afraid.........


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## mjr (4 Mar 2022)

mjr said:


> Note that oil was too expensive for heating at 50p/l. It's now 75p/l and rising. Farked either way.


And less than 2 weeks later, heating oil is over £1/litre.


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## The Central Scrutinizer (31 Mar 2022)

Martin Lewis said to take a meter reading today as the new tariffs come in effect tomorrow but on the Octopus Energy website they are saying the best time is Saturday the 2nd of april because their tariff doesn't change until 00.00 on Saturday.
Do you know what your energy providers are saying?


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## Electric_Andy (31 Mar 2022)

Yes I read that, just done it, but the EDF website was "experiencing problems" i.e. can't cope becasue everyone is doing the same, I managed to get my readings in though


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## youngoldbloke (31 Mar 2022)

Heard nothing about those of us on fixed deals - I assume our prices won't go up until the end of our existing contracts - September in my case?


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## fossyant (31 Mar 2022)

youngoldbloke said:


> Heard nothing about those of us on fixed deals - I assume our prices won't go up until the end of our existing contracts - September in my case?



Correct.

I just need to get the gas reading - and latest elec, but I've been seeing that the 'hot tub' really is expensive to run. Saving a fortune turning the water temp right down, then ONLY putting it on if you are going to use it takes all day to heat, but then the cost is just £2-3 per use (heat half a day then off), not £5 a day.

Scottish Power website is down.


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## ebikeerwidnes (31 Mar 2022)

People on fixed deals or using a smart meter don;t have to do anything
The fixed deal people don;t get any increase during their contract term
and the smart meter people - assuming the thing is working - send reading automatically


as of a week or so ago - I am in both categories
I do wonder if my smart meter was 'undumbed' just before the price rise (for some) so that they could enforce accuracy and prevent people adding a bit onto the reading in the hope of getting some energy at the lower price after the change date


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## vickster (31 Mar 2022)

youngoldbloke said:


> Heard nothing about those of us on fixed deals - I assume our prices won't go up until the end of our existing contracts - September in my case?


Indeed not, they are fixed


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## ianrauk (31 Mar 2022)

youngoldbloke said:


> Heard nothing about those of us on fixed deals - I assume our prices won't go up until the end of our existing contracts - September in my case?



I locked my self into a 2 years fixed deal with EDF only last October.


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## Mike_P (31 Mar 2022)

My fixed ran out and price comparison sites had no alternatives available. Now get an email saying going up by 130%


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## ColinJ (31 Mar 2022)

British Gas texted me first thing today to ask me to submit a reading. I was having a lie-in so didn't do that. They texted me again from another number a few hours later, asking me very nicely to do it!


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## Scaleyback (31 Mar 2022)

ianrauk said:


> I locked my self into a 2 years fixed deal with EDF only last October.


Good luck to you and others who took the chance and took a fixed deal.
Of course your fixed deal would have cost more than a variable deal at the time you signed but no doubt under the circumstances you will be in credit. Just prepare for the shock when your fixed deal expires and you 'inherit' all the recent prices rises in one lump sum.


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## mjr (31 Mar 2022)

ColinJ said:


> British Gas texted me first thing today to ask me to submit a reading. I was having a lie-in so didn't do that. They texted me again from another number a few hours later, asking me very nicely to do it!


Isn't everyone waiting until after 10pm and gambling on the websites staying up?


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## MontyVeda (31 Mar 2022)

mjr said:


> *Isn't everyone waiting until after 10pm* and gambling on the websites staying up?


Nah, submitted mine this morning and my mother's this afternoon. 

Half a day's usage is not going to make much difference.

I did get an email back from Terry at EonNext, thanking me for the reading and apologising for the website being down. I didn't even try the website. I sent them via email last time i did a reading


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## mjr (31 Mar 2022)

MontyVeda said:


> Nah, submitted mine this morning and my mother's this afternoon.
> 
> Half a day's usage is not going to make much difference. [...]


If your central heating is powered off the mains and you're enjoying the blizzards we are, half a day's usage is probably a quid or two increase, just for submitting at a different time, so if you've nothing better to do then...

Also, my rates change 2nd April not 1st. So I'll read the meter tomorrow.


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## mjr (31 Mar 2022)

E.On blames MoneySavingExpert's Martin Lewis for their websites crashing, rather than their own slothful smart meter roll-out, then apologises:

View: https://twitter.com/SamMcFaul/status/1509486845150834689


View: https://twitter.com/SamMcFaul/status/1509535927911260164


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## oldwheels (31 Mar 2022)

I have been trying to send my meter readings to SSE but the site goes to the second last step and them just stops. Overloaded I presume so will just have to keep trying but at least I seem to able to give the date the reading was taken.


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## ColinJ (31 Mar 2022)

mjr said:


> Isn't everyone waiting until after 10pm and gambling on the websites staying up?


I did fleetingly consider adding quite a bit onto the cheaper rate reading, which would mean less gas being counted at the higher cost later, but my wretched sense of honesty kicked in so I sent them the _actual _number.


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## ClichéGuevara (31 Mar 2022)

oldwheels said:


> I have been trying to send my meter readings to SSE but the site goes to the second last step and them just stops. Overloaded I presume so will just have to keep trying but at least I seem to able to give the date the reading was taken.



You can get an extra 9 days at the lower rate if you like. 

"If you're having trouble logging in to your account, don't worry, you have until 9 April to give us your meter readings online for 31 March. Smart meter customers don't need to do anything as your readings will automatically be shared with us."


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## mjr (31 Mar 2022)

ColinJ said:


> I did fleetingly consider adding quite a bit onto the cheaper rate reading, which would mean less gas being counted at the higher cost later, but my wretched sense of honesty kicked in so I sent them the _actual _number.


I suspect the retailers will be asking the meter readers to check any unusual readings soon and now would really not be a good time to be accused of fraud and put onto an expensive prepayment meter!


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## oldwheels (31 Mar 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> You can get an extra 9 days at the lower rate if you like.
> 
> "If you're having trouble logging in to your account, don't worry, you have until 9 April to give us your meter readings online for 31 March. Smart meter customers don't need to do anything as your readings will automatically be shared with us."


I normally read my meters every Saturday morning just to keep tabs on my consumption but do not usually send them anywhere.


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## ianrauk (31 Mar 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> Good luck to you and others who took the chance and took a fixed deal.
> Of course your fixed deal would have cost more than a variable deal at the time you signed but no doubt under the circumstances you will be in credit. Just prepare for the shock when your fixed deal expires and you 'inherit' all the recent prices rises in one lump sum.


Actually no. The deal I signed was lower then the variable deal with both Bulb who I left and EDF who I signed up with.
I'm certainly under no illusion of a huge raise in payments in two years once my current deal runs out.


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## ColinJ (31 Mar 2022)

mjr said:


> I suspect the retailers will be asking the meter readers to check any unusual readings soon and now would really not be a good time to be accused of fraud and put onto an expensive prepayment meter!


If they would just repair my smart meter then I wouldn't need to be submitting readings myself anyway!

They had 2 attempts and then gave up...


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## Scaleyback (31 Mar 2022)

ianrauk said:


> Actually no. The deal I signed was lower then the variable deal with both Bulb who I left and EDF who I signed up with.
> I'm certainly under no illusion of a huge raise in payments in two years once my current deal runs out.



Ah, I see. I think folk who were moved by ofgem after energy company closures were given 'special rates' which was quite right of course. Not their fault the company failed.


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## MontyVeda (31 Mar 2022)

mjr said:


> ... *probably a quid or two increase* ...


which is next to nothing in light of the several hundred pounds more we'll be paying this coming year


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## mjr (31 Mar 2022)

MontyVeda said:


> which is next to nothing in light of the several hundred pounds more we'll be paying this coming year


It's still another coffee out on a ride to me! Or half a cake! If it's nothing to you, can I have yours too?


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## MontyVeda (31 Mar 2022)

mjr said:


> It's still another coffee out on a ride to me! Or half a cake! If it's nothing to you, can I have yours too?


I make my own coffee... freshly ground from Aldi's finest beans with a choice of percolated, aeropress or mochapot with frothed milk. I can do about 20 cups for a couple of quid, so yes, of course


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## PaulSB (1 Apr 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> Ah, I see. I think folk who were moved by ofgem after energy company closures were given 'special rates' which was quite right of course. Not their fault the company failed.


In my case I wasn't given a "special rate" by British Gas who are my designated "supplier of last resort" - never has a description been more apt!!! 

I've been talking to BG about the account since September, at each step I've complied with their request for initial meter reading, monthly meter readings, annual consumption figures, direct debit etc. In that time I've received one bill in December until this week when I eventually discovered why I haven't been billed and how to ensure I do get a bill!! After much discussion my account was updated on Monday to move from £289 credit to £278 in debit. I still don't have a bill to allow me to check this. Until Monday my account has shown in credit for seven months!!! Why? Consumption and charges are only calculated every six months on this type of account.

To put this in perspective I've been with smaller companies, that is not "big six," for perhaps 15 years. My account has always been paid by monthly direct debit with some suppliers varying the DD every few months to ensure we keep on track. Over twelve months this always works out to within +/-£30-40. Happy.

With British Gas the system is different and it has taken seven months to discover this. If one pays a fixed amount by monthly DD one is deemed to be on an installment plan and BG only bill customers of this type every six months - frankly this is a disaster waiting to happen for many people. If one wants to receive a monthly bill then it must be paid by variable direct debit with BG taking the full amount every month. That's not quite what I wanted but if that's the system so be it, what really angers me is it took seven months to be given this information and only because I have chased and argued throughout that time.

To add insult to injury in December BG emailed to say I was paying too much and reduced my fixed DD accordingly. I was promised all the bills etc. would show on my account by Wednesday morning. Nothing and of course the website has been crashed for 48 hours. I'm fortunate in that I can find the £567 BG say I owe but for many, many people this would be an absolute financial disaster.

Supplier of last resort. Undoubtedly. I'll be away from BG as soon as the mess is sorted out.


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## Phaeton (1 Apr 2022)

Has anyone been able to access BG to provide the readings for yesterday?


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## PaulSB (1 Apr 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Has anyone been able to access BG to provide the readings for yesterday?


The site is still down. I received an email five minutes ago saying my December - March bill is available to view but I can't access the site. The other little gem I had from BG on Monday evening following my discussions with them - my DD was cancelled by BG!!! 

Who needs cyber criminals when Martin Lewis is available to bring down the internet?????


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## ClichéGuevara (1 Apr 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Has anyone been able to access BG to provide the readings for yesterday?



I have just done it. I completed an on-line form with my details and the readings on.


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## simongt (1 Apr 2022)

Although this may have been said, the problem now is that so many folk have electical 'devices' thta need to be recharged on an almost daily basis or run form the mains anyway that they willl have to make some very hard choices in order to reduce their electrical consumption. 
My deasr mother-in-law lives in a wee house that was built in the '60s when electricity was seen as the 'new clean power' thus pretty much everything in said house is electric. Hmm.


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## Scaleyback (1 Apr 2022)

PaulSB said:


> The site is still down. I received an email five minutes ago saying my December - March bill is available to view but I can't access the site. The other little gem I had from BG on Monday evening following my discussions with them - my DD was cancelled by BG!!!
> 
> Who needs cyber criminals when Martin Lewis is available to bring down the internet?????


You BG customers have my sympathy.
I worked for them for 20 years, joined when they were nationalised (and a good place to work) and left in 1996, 10 years after privatisation. 
They were already 'going down the pan' I and many others took their redundancy package and couldn't 'get out' fast enough.
What a f***ing disaster this company has become. But I guess this applies to many/most/all ? the nationalised utilities etc that were 
privatised so that competition would make them more efficient. I guess 'that ship has sailed'


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## Phaeton (1 Apr 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> I have just done it. I completed an on-line form with my details and the readings on.


Yes I managed to get as far as this, but not confident it will get processed.


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## PaulSB (1 Apr 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> You BG customers have my sympathy.
> I worked for them for 20 years, joined when they were nationalised (and a good place to work) and left in 1996, 10 years after privatisation.
> They were already 'going down the pan' I and many others took their redundancy package and couldn't 'get out' fast enough.
> What a f***ing disaster this company has become. But I guess this applies to many/most/all ? the nationalised utilities etc that were
> privatised so that competition would make them more efficient. I guess 'that ship has sailed'


They are the absolute pits on energy supply and I've deliberately avoided BG for as long as possible, 15-20 years, I can't recall. The problem is Customer Service and a complete inability to understand the customer and provide all the necessary information for the customer to make an informed choice. If I'd known in September what I now know I would have been on a variable DD since then.

What I would emphasise though is I find their engineers excellent. Some years ago BG supplied and installed our Worcester Bosch combi boiler and we have used the annual service and maintenance package ever since. The engineers are professional, on time, communicate well and generally a credit to themselves. I've never forgotten the one who walked in and said "you've got a leak" - within an hour an old disused but leaking lead supply was suspected and a team was there inside two hours to dig up the yard, cap it and the next day the back fill team arrived.


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## Scaleyback (1 Apr 2022)

PaulSB said:


> What I would emphasise though is I find their engineers excellent.


Good to hear.


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## mjr (1 Apr 2022)

simongt said:


> Although this may have been said, the problem now is that so many folk have electical 'devices' thta need to be recharged on an almost daily basis or run form the mains anyway that they willl have to make some very hard choices in order to reduce their electrical consumption.


Get a dynamo-usb converter and ride bikes more. Win-win 



> My deasr mother-in-law lives in a wee house that was built in the '60s when electricity was seen as the 'new clean power' thus pretty much everything in said house is electric. Hmm.


Even the 50% electric price increase is better than the 75% increase of heating oil over the last 6 months (which looked like 175% earlier this month, topping out at 159p/l). As long as the clean electric appliances aren't still the 60s ones, but have been kept up to date by replacing with things like induction hobs, it's still a win plus clean too.


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## PaulSB (1 Apr 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> Good to hear.


Undoubtedly. The original install was very well done and whenever a BG engineer visits I feel informed of and confident in the result.


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## GuyBoden (1 Apr 2022)

Is it still cheaper to boil the kettle with gas?


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## Phaeton (1 Apr 2022)

PaulSB said:


> What I would emphasise though is I find their engineers excellent.


Funny that I think they are the pits, I got their free repair service included in our package, called them up as the boiler was leaking water, after 2 cancelled appointments he turned up, I explained what the issue was, 'Oh I know what that is, it'll only take 5 minutes' he put air pressure into the expansion chamber as he bled water out of the system. If was then tested & all was working fine, he then stuck a probe into the flue at which point it all went pear shape. The boiler had to be condemned, it's dangerous, can't leave it working, you're lucky you're still alive etc. etc. oh we can't get parts for it it's too old, this was without any investigation then promptly capped our gas supply off & left.

I am in dispute with them now over this as I had another engineer in who said although it needed investigating it didn't need condemning, it was clearly a ploy by BG to get a Sales person to ring to try to sell us a new boiler which they did.


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## fossyant (1 Apr 2022)

GuyBoden said:


> Is it still cheaper to boil the kettle with gas?



Good question ? How much gas does a burner use over 10 minutes, compared to a kettle boiling enough water for a cup or two ?

I can tell you how expensive it is to run a shower for an half an hour - £1.50 - 10KWh x 30 minutes x 30p per KWH. Same for a hot tub - about £5 a day ! 

I shall tell you shortly how much my son's bedroom costs to run. He went out last night leaving everything on, so I went through the room unplugging god knows how many extension leads and unused power adapters, never mind the Gaming PC.


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## GuyBoden (1 Apr 2022)

Kettle boiling using a bike.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWWwRtkUIyQ


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## MontyVeda (1 Apr 2022)

GuyBoden said:


> Is it still cheaper to boil the kettle with gas?


I might start using the meths burner from my camping kit


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## ClichéGuevara (1 Apr 2022)

GuyBoden said:


> Kettle boiling using a bike.
> 
> 
> View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWWwRtkUIyQ




You'd have to add in the energy used for all the components, plus the calories of food you'd need to consume to replace the energy burned.


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## numbnuts (1 Apr 2022)

GuyBoden said:


> Is it still cheaper to boil the kettle with gas?


That's all I ever use so I hope so


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## midlife (1 Apr 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Has anyone been able to access BG to provide the readings for yesterday?



Not yet.....


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## fossyant (1 Apr 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> You'd have to add in the energy used for all the components, plus the calories of food you'd need to consume to replace the energy burned.



Now you are getting technical.

I've worked out I can cycle 53 hilly miles on two pieces of toast, a bowl of cereal, a banana, some carb drink and an energy gel. Cost less than £1.50 - still cheaper than the car.


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## mjr (1 Apr 2022)

fossyant said:


> I can tell you how expensive it is to run a shower for an half an hour - £1.50 - 10KWh x 30 minutes x 30p per KWH.


The meter here suggests the shower costs 1p-2p/min or in that range, so I was surprised by the above, searched the web and no, indeed, electric resistance power showers are that awful. For comparison, our heater's maximum input is 3.5kW, but it rarely uses that (right now it's heating some water at 2kW) and heats a 170L tank from 16 to 47 degrees in 30-40 minutes... and we had to tell the grid operator we were connecting it! Why the fark are resistance showers advertised as "more energy efficient"?

Energy efficiency in this country is a farking mess.


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## numbnuts (1 Apr 2022)

Eon are saying you have up to the 9th April to send in a reading


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## fossyant (1 Apr 2022)

Scottish Power website still down, but they have a holding page/form where you pop in your account number, postcode and readings and press submit.

Only issue is finding the account code - top tip, search your inbox for the dreaded email that arrived in early March about the price increase - account number is there !


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## ClichéGuevara (1 Apr 2022)

fossyant said:


> Now you are getting technical.
> 
> *I've worked out I can cycle 53 hilly miles on two pieces of toast*, a bowl of cereal, a banana, some carb drink and an energy gel. Cost less than £1.50 - still cheaper than the car.



Wouldn't you find it easier to do on a bike?


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## alicat (1 Apr 2022)

Just managed to give an electricity reading for yesterday on EON. I don't know how to do the gas since I don't have a key for the meter box.


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## midlife (1 Apr 2022)

fossyant said:


> Scottish Power website still down, but they have a holding page/form where you pop in your account number, postcode and readings and press submit.
> 
> Only issue is finding the account code - top tip, search your inbox for the dreaded email that arrived in early March about the price increase - account number is there !



Thanks, was wondering where my account number was hidden...


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## fossyant (1 Apr 2022)

midlife said:


> Thanks, was wondering where my account number was hidden...


On-line accounts are no good, when it's all on-line and down !


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## midlife (1 Apr 2022)

fossyant said:


> On-line accounts are no good, when it's all on-line and down !



The online account is down but there is a link to a web form that you fill in and submit. Needs account number though.


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## Pat "5mph" (1 Apr 2022)

alicat said:


> Just managed to give an electricity reading for yesterday on EON. I don't know how to do the gas since I don't have a key for the meter box.


Outside gas meters here are all behind a kind of cupboard that opens with a standard Link or similar Link kind of tool. You can also buy a utility key with 4 different sizes, mine opens the council's food bin too 
Available at the pound shop, home bargains or at your local small hardware store.


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## alicat (1 Apr 2022)

Pat 5mph said:


> Outside gas meters here are all behind a kind of cupboard that opens with a standard Link or similar Link kind of tool. You can also buy a utility key with 4 different sizes, mine opens the council's food bin too
> Available at the pound shop, home bargains or at your local small hardware store.



Thanks for the info, @Pat "5mph". I'll know for next time.


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## alicat (1 Apr 2022)

Come to think of it, I think I've got one in my tool box.


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## Domus (2 Apr 2022)

Finally got on to Eon's site to submit my readings late yesterday morning, I kid you not, less than five minutes later a meter reader rang the bell.


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## Phaeton (2 Apr 2022)

Domus said:


> Finally got on to Eon's site to submit my readings late yesterday morning, I kid you not, less than five minutes later a meter reader rang the bell.


I hope you asked for identification as I haven't seen one of them in years, didn't know they still existed


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## ebikeerwidnes (2 Apr 2022)

Domus said:


> Finally got on to Eon's site to submit my readings late yesterday morning, I kid you not, less than five minutes later a meter reader rang the bell.


WOW - meter readers still exist!!

haven't seen one of them for a couple of decades!

I suspect they will be busy for the next few weeks checking the readings where people seem to have suddenly used loads of electric at the old rate and then use naff all for the next few weeks!


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## Scaleyback (2 Apr 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Funny that I think they are the pits, I got their free repair service included in our package, called them up as the boiler was leaking water, after 2 cancelled appointments he turned up, I explained what the issue was, 'Oh I know what that is, it'll only take 5 minutes' he put air pressure into the expansion chamber as he bled water out of the system. If was then tested & all was working fine, he then stuck a probe into the flue at which point it all went pear shape. The boiler had to be condemned, it's dangerous, can't leave it working, you're lucky you're still alive etc. etc. oh we can't get parts for it it's too old, this was without any investigation then promptly capped our gas supply off & left.
> 
> I am in dispute with them now over this as I had another engineer in who said although it needed investigating it didn't need condemning, it was clearly a ploy by BG to get a Sales person to ring to try to sell us a new boiler which they did.



Sadly, it has long been known that BG engineers have a propensity for condeming gas appliances. It is inevitable that some of these decisions are subjective and the customer will be the big loser. A second opinion from another Gas Safe registered engineer is often a good idea.


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## ebikeerwidnes (2 Apr 2022)

I always avoid BG
Many many years ago my parents had a policy with them so that anything that went wrong got fixed - and at he time they were brilliant
Any problems and an engineer was round there within 24 hours
One Christmas Day I arrived in the morning as usual to be told the gas was off due to a leek and we might have to pack dinner up and go back to my house to cook it
They had reported it about an hour before - and a few minutes after I got there the doorbell rang and the gas was back on within an hour
dinner was saved!!

AFter that they just seemed to stop bothering - rather than trying to turn up ASAP they started 'scheduling' you for an appointment ina few days

It seems like as soon as they had competition they got the bean counters in and tried to save money

WHenever I have needed a new boiler I have got a quote from them because they tend to tell you about all the regulations - then get another few quotes from small local firms - BG can turn out to be twice the price!!


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## Scaleyback (2 Apr 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> I always avoid BG
> It seems like as soon as they had competition they got the bean counters in and tried to save money


As a former BG employee (see earlier post) Privatisation changed the whole ethos of this company.
Before privatisation the company had many time served engineers in positions of high authority. Sir Dennis Rooke (he of the 'Fat cat' witch hunt)
rose from youth apprentice to chairman of BG. Priorities in those days, driven by engineering excellence were safety and continuinty of supply. 
After Privatisation came the 'rise' of the Accountant and the need to provide returns for shareholders and imo the demise of what was the Worlds leading authority on large scale gas distribution networks. You will find now that the top echelon of the business and many of the other privatised utilities are headed by 'professional businessmen' who have no experience of the 'grass roots' of the company they are heading.


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## ebikeerwidnes (2 Apr 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> As a former BG employee (see earlier post) Privatisation changed the whole ethos of this company.
> Before privatisation the company had many time served engineers in positions of high authority. Sir Dennis Rooke (he of the 'Fat cat' witch hunt)
> rose from youth apprentice to chairman of BG. Priorities in those days, driven by engineering excellence were safety and continuinty of supply.
> After Privatisation came the 'rise' of the Accountant and the need to provide returns for shareholders and imo the demise of what was the Worlds leading authority on large scale gas distribution networks. You will find now that the top echelon of the business and many of the other privatised utilities are headed by 'professional businessmen' who have no experience of the 'grass roots' of the company they are heading.


That would explain it
"The Rise of the Bean Counters" is my idea of a horror film


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## Phaeton (2 Apr 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> Sadly, it has long been known that BG engineers have a propensity for condeming gas appliances. It is inevitable that some of these decisions are subjective and the customer will be the big loser. A second opinion from another Gas Safe registered engineer is often a good idea.


I did & his opinion was although it wasn't in-spec, it was literally just outside & wasn't in the dangerous state that the BG engineer had made out. Also the fact that the CO2 monitor was in the cupboard & wasn't complaining was another factor, he put the gas back on & then he fitted a new boiler 10 days later. BG sales team rang 4 weeks later asking if we wanted a quote for a new boiler bearing in mind they had no information that a new boiler had been fitted & for all they knew we'd been without heat for the whole of December & into January.


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## gbb (2 Apr 2022)

Truth is, most companies are run by accountants now, every last vestige of cost is stripped out if a company wants to compete. If it doesnt, it cant compete and will ultimately fail. Its a terrible fact we all live with now.
I look at the big employers round here, Perkins, Brotherhoods, Baker Perkins, Hotpoint, they all had social clubs...afaik, its all gone, everything sold off, anything that didnt generate profit, worse still actually cost, wiped off the board.

My son is BG engineer, they have sacrificed all sorts over the last few years, Final Salary Pension gone, terms and conditions eroded, old extensive training gone, its all diluted in the name of profit, just like everywhere else unfortunately.


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## gbb (2 Apr 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I did & his opinion was although it wasn't in-spec, it was literally just outside & wasn't in the dangerous state that the BG engineer had made out. Also the fact that the CO2 monitor was in the cupboard & wasn't complaining was another factor, he put the gas back on & then he fitted a new boiler 10 days later. BG sales team rang 4 weeks later asking if we wanted a quote for a new boiler bearing in mind they had no information that a new boiler had been fitted & for all they knew we'd been without heat for the whole of December & into January.


Talking to my son, he finds exactly what you describe within BG ranks, let alone another company..opinion. Opinions differ, engineers differ situations and experiences differ. BG tend to be right down the line when safety is concerned and it does upset customers naturally but they wont, or shouldnt compromise safety. If the boiler you were discussing up post wasnt as bad as the BG engineer suggested, why did it get replaced then by the second company id ask myself.


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## PaulSB (2 Apr 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> As a former BG employee (see earlier post) Privatisation changed the whole ethos of this company.
> Before privatisation the company had many time served engineers in positions of high authority. Sir Dennis Rooke (he of the 'Fat cat' witch hunt)
> rose from youth apprentice to chairman of BG. Priorities in those days, driven by engineering excellence were safety and continuinty of supply.
> After Privatisation came the 'rise' of the Accountant and the need to provide returns for shareholders and imo the demise of what was the Worlds leading authority on large scale gas distribution networks. You will find now that the top echelon of the business and many of the other privatised utilities are headed by 'professional businessmen' who have no experience of the 'grass roots' of the company they are heading.


I've heard similar from another ex BG employee. I was asked to complete a satisfaction survey this morning. I've gone to some trouble to explain why their Customer Service is appalling. Basically it's taken three months to understand how my energy account runs. If I'd had the correct information I wouldn't be £287.76 behind in my payments which I'm deeply unhappy about. I can afford it but as a pensioner it's wrecked my budgeting for a couple of months and as I said earlier could be disastrous for millions of people. If the staff were adequately trained and provided concise clear information BG would save ££££, I would save time and BG would receive praise instead of derision.

I know it's not true for everyone but my experience of the engineers is superb.


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## ColinJ (2 Apr 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Also the fact that the CO2 monitor was in the cupboard


That would be a _*CO*_ monitor.

I make sure that I have them in the house now after very nearly dying from CO poisoning from a faulty gas fire installation about 20 years ago. (Fortunately when I blacked out I fell down below the CO build-up and eventually woke up and crawled to safety!)

I had a gas safety check here yesterday and the engineer noticed that my 2 monitors have just reached the end of their 7 year working life so I will be buying new ones shortly.

My £140 Warm Home discount has come through to help with this winter fuel bill. I'm worried about the coming year though.


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## Phaeton (2 Apr 2022)

gbb said:


> why did it get replaced then by the second company id ask myself.


Because it was old & inefficient it was about 15 years old & was going to be replaced this year anyway. But it was the method in which it was done & the fact that no investigation was done into the cause, he looked on his computer & said not all parts are available for this boiler & condemned it without knowing what part(s) would need to be replaced, if any.

The 2nd engineer on taking out the boiler found that the seal between the flue & the boiler had perished which could & I repeat could have been the cause.



ColinJ said:


> That would be a _*CO*_ monitor.


Sorry yes. Monoxide, not Dioxide, I too once had a lucky escape, as a BT Engineer we were always told never to have the stove on in the back of the van with the doors closed but we knew better, 3 of us nearly didn't get back out of the back of the van that day.


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## ColinJ (2 Apr 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Sorry yes. Monoxide, not Dioxide, I too once had a lucky escape, as a BT Engineer we were always told never to have the stove on in the back of the van with the doors closed but we knew better, 3 of us nearly didn't get back out of the back of the van that day.


Yikes!

I saw a useful tip yesterday when reading about the monitors. If travelling to accommodation in a country which may not have good gas safety standards, take a CO monitor with you.


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## presta (2 Apr 2022)

PaulSB said:


> What I would emphasise though is I find their engineers excellent. Some years ago BG supplied and installed our Worcester Bosch combi boiler and we have used the annual service and maintenance package ever since. The engineers are professional, on time, communicate well and generally a credit to themselves. I've never forgotten the one who walked in and said "you've got a leak" - within an hour an old disused but leaking lead supply was suspected and a team was there inside two hours to dig up the yard, cap it and the next day the back fill team arrived.


When we converted to natural gas in the 1970s, we had our old Ascot "geyser" replaced with a new multipoint water heater. For the uninitiated, they heat water on demand when you run the tap, a bit like today's combi boilers, but without the heating. The water passes through a venturi that creates a pressure drop when you turn the tap on, then the pressure difference is sensed by a diaphragm, and the displacement moves a pushrod which opens the gas valve.

Why am I rambling on about all this? Well, the pushrod accumulates limescale so that it jams in the gland where it passes through the diaphragm housing. This means that when you turn the tap off, the return spring isn't strong enough to return it, and the gas keeps burning, so you now have a sealed vessel full of water being heated by a 22kW burner.

Now one of two things happens: either you notice that the burner hasn't stopped, and recognise the knocking in the pipes that signals the water's boiling and the heat exchanger's about to blow, or else it will explode. Fortunately we were able to do the former, so that was the cue to quickly turn the tap back on, and relieve the pressure (then stand well back as a blast of steam and solder pellets erupt from the tap). Then you can turn off the gas at the stopcock, followed by the water tap.

Why am I still rambling on about this? Well, when British Gas came out, they behaved as if they'd never seen anything like it before, scraped the limescale off the pushrod, put it all back together, and went away. In due course the limescale accumulated again, and there was another hasty scramble to stop the heater exploding, and again BG cleaned the pushrod and went away. This happened again and again and again over the years, but each time BG behaved as if they'd never seen it before, so my father wrote them a long letter, and their solution was to fit another more modern water heater (at our expense).

That one seemed OK for a while, but then the same thing started happening again, and this time the stakes were higher for two reasons. Firstly, my father had died in the meantime, which meant that if I turned the water tap off upstairs in the bathroom, there was nobody downstairs in the kitchen to spot that the gas burner was still running, so now the only warning was the knocking noise from the pipes. Secondly, the water main had been replaced, and in keeping with current regulations, a non-return valve had been fitted to the rising main. Previously, the heat exchanger could overheat, but the pressure would never exceed mains pressure because the water was able to expand back into the main. This was critical, because now the NR valve prevented any expansion, so that when the burner kept running there was nothing to limit the pressure. This all meant that I had less than a second to recognise the knocking in the pipes, and turn the tap back on to relieve the pressure (not forgetting to stand clear of the steam blast of course).

Sure enough, one day my luck ran out and the heater exploded, but fortunately, being in the bathroom at the time meant I didn't get scalded to death in the kitchen. BG were round quite quickly when I told them it had exploded, but they just talked to me like a naughty 5 year old because I didn't have one of their service contracts, then put it all back together and went away until the next time.

And there were quite a few next times, so I made sure I had a service contract, then at least the heat exchangers got replaced at their expense. I really don't remember how many, but eventually they got fed up of paying for new heat exchangers at £200-300 apiece, and cancelled my service contract. This was about the time I decided I'd had enough and wrote to them threatening legal action, and just for good measure I included a copy of the letter my father had sent them on the same subject 16 years earlier. Within 24 hours they came round to fit a modification that had been developed donkey's years previously to fix the problem. I think the fix was a Teflon-coated pushrod that stopped the limescale sticking to it, but I had another 25 years trouble-free service out of it after that was done.

Aren't British gas wonderful.
(BTW, independent plumbers wouldn't touch it with a bargepole.)


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## ClichéGuevara (2 Apr 2022)

presta said:


> When we converted to natural gas in the 1970s, we had our old Ascot "geyser" replaced with a new multipoint water heater. For the uninitiated, they heat water on demand when you run the tap, a bit like today's combi boilers, but without the heating. The water passes through a venturi that creates a pressure drop when you turn the tap on, then the pressure difference is sensed by a diaphragm, and the displacement moves a pushrod which opens the gas valve.
> 
> Why am I rambling on about all this? Well, the pushrod accumulates limescale so that it jams in the gland where it passes through the diaphragm housing. This means that when you turn the tap off, the return spring isn't strong enough to return it, and the gas keeps burning, so you now have a sealed vessel full of water being heated by a 22kW burner.
> 
> ...



If they were 'surprised' at the scale build up, it shows that they haven't been trained properly, as greasing that pin and checking the O rings is part of the annual service that they are supposed to carry out on every such appliance.


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## Ming the Merciless (2 Apr 2022)

Electricity, standing charge up about 40%, usage rate up 50%
Gas, standing charge up 5%, usage rate up 88%

Some useful info that smart meter gadget tells you!


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## gbb (2 Apr 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Because it was old & inefficient it was about 15 years old & was going to be replaced this year anyway. But it was the method in which it was done & the fact that no investigation was done into the cause, he looked on his computer & said not all parts are available for this boiler & condemned it without knowing what part(s) would need to be replaced, if any.
> 
> The 2nd engineer on taking out the boiler found that the seal between the flue & the boiler had perished which could & I repeat could have been the cause.


That may be a failing if the structure which they work within, if ALL the spares required for a full repair arent available...period (and that is something that is increasingly common as boilers age), theres not much anyone can do (apart from scouring the net for refurbished or secondhand parts...or rarely NOS) Same applies for any company, but some are more flexible, as in your second engineers visit. Trouble is, i suspect in BGs case, they cant or dont react fast enough, their followup is poor, id agree 100%
BG of course wouldnt fit unwarranted, unknown parts (i know you know that, im ust musing) Another company might get it going, be less rigid...its swings and roundabouts, like everything in life.
My son faces it day after day condemning boilers for safety reasons and unavailability of parts.
My boiler is over 25 years old. One small failure just might condemn it. One large failure last year nearly did, an insulation panel within the burner broke in half...no spares, havnt been for years. Brought a larger generic sheet of the right material, cut to size, repair made. BG would never have done that, i suspect many independants wouldnt either, not because its not safe...but because theres no money in it for them (it cost me less than £20 iirc) . Thats the unfortunate reality we all have to contend with.
Im fully expecting a circa £3k system rebuild in the next couple years, its expected, semi planned and budgeted for thankfully...

I talked swings and roundabouts...BG for instance fit only generally the most reliable boilers. The logic is they have to attend less breakdowns, less cost to them, the plus is a normally more reliable system for the customer. Private companies i suspect often sell the cheapest boilers, either because it makes them more profit or the customer limits the spend...result, a poorer quality, less reliable system.


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## ClichéGuevara (2 Apr 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> As a former BG employee (see earlier post) Privatisation changed the whole ethos of this company.
> Before privatisation the company had many time served engineers in positions of high authority. Sir Dennis Rooke (he of the 'Fat cat' witch hunt)
> rose from youth apprentice to chairman of BG. Priorities in those days, driven by engineering excellence were safety and continuinty of supply.
> After Privatisation came the 'rise' of the Accountant and the need to provide returns for shareholders and imo the demise of what was the Worlds leading authority on large scale gas distribution networks. You will find now that the top echelon of the business and many of the other privatised utilities are headed by 'professional businessmen' who have no experience of the 'grass roots' of the company they are heading.



100% agree. They tried to change the Engineers to salesmen, even sending them on sales courses that advised them that their trusted reputation left them in a great position to convince people that a new appliance was more economical than a repair, even for things that could be done with bits in the van for a minimal cost. They offered rewards for every new appliance they could sell.

At one point, they even sold central heating systems that were only designed to provide background heat, but kept that aspect quiet, and offered them as a bargain price option as they had smaller radiators and boiler.

Since then, the training most tradesmen (not just BG or gas engineers) take has been dumbed down to a ridiculous degree to the former CGLI apprenticeships. I've known people working on gas appliances that were little more than delivery drivers that had been on a short course.

Few are four year time served.


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## gbb (2 Apr 2022)

Im no BG lover btw , i do hear the problems my son faces somethimes, problems from within the company, problems some unreasonable or unrealistic customers,systems that when they go wrong are expensive...and a company some people still think of as they used to 30 years ago. BG isnt your friend or saviour, they provide a service on their terms, same as most other companies do. You pays your money...


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## ClichéGuevara (2 Apr 2022)

gbb said:


> That may be a failing if the structure which they work within, if ALL the spares required for a full repair arent available...period (and that is something that is increasingly common as boilers age), theres not much anyone can do (apart from scouring the net for refurbished or secondhand parts...or rarely NOS) Same applies for any company, but some are more flexible, as in your second engineers visit. Trouble is, i suspect in BGs case, they cant or dont react fast enough, their followup is poor, id agree 100%
> BG of course wouldnt fit unwarranted, unknown parts (i know you know that, im ust musing) Another company might get it going, be less rigid...its swings and roundabouts, like everything in life.
> My son faces it day after day condemning boilers for safety reasons and unavailability of parts.
> My boiler is over 25 years old. One small failure just might condemn it. One large failure last year nearly did, an insulation panel within the burner broke in half...no spares, havnt been for years. Brought a larger generic sheet of the right material, cut to size, repair made. BG would never have done that, i suspect many independants wouldnt either, not because its not safe...but because theres no money in it for them (it cost me less than £20 iirc) . Thats the unfortunate reality we all have to contend with.
> ...



A friend has a few properties he rents out, and he installs a cheap boiler in them. He costed it all out, and calculated that replacing a cheap boiler for another one if it packed up, was more cost effective than trying to source and fit spare parts, or having a maintenance contract. He argues that's better for his tenants too as he can resolve things very quickly.

Ironically, he's not had to replace any as yet, despite them being in for years.


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## ColinJ (2 Apr 2022)

presta said:


> When we converted to natural gas in the 1970s, we had our old Ascot "geyser" replaced with a new multipoint water heater. For the uninitiated, they heat water on demand when you run the tap, a bit like today's combi boilers, but without the heating. The water passes through a venturi that creates a pressure drop when you turn the tap on, then the pressure difference is sensed by a diaphragm, and the displacement moves a pushrod which opens the gas valve.
> 
> Why am I rambling on about all this? Well, the pushrod accumulates limescale so that it jams in the gland where it passes through the diaphragm housing. This means that when you turn the tap off, the return spring isn't strong enough to return it, and the gas keeps burning, so you now have a sealed vessel full of water being heated by a 22kW burner.
> 
> ...


Oh wow - that would explain how this happened! 



ColinJ said:


> ... I decided to treat myself to a nice long soak in the bath. Very relaxing it was too, so much so that I dozed off for about 15 minutes. Eventually, I woke up and decided to wash my hair and leaned forward with a plastic jug in my hands to fill with fresh hot water from the tap...
> 
> Some sort of Time Dilation Effect then took place! In the course of about 150 milliseconds I went from sitting relaxed in the bath to running downstairs naked screaming _F**K, F**K, F**K!!!_
> 
> ...


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## gbb (2 Apr 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> 100% agree. They tried to change the Engineers to salesmen, even sending them on sales courses that advised them that their trusted reputation left them in a great position to convince people that a new appliance was more economical than a repair, even for things that could be done with bits in the van for a minimal cost. They offered rewards for every new appliance they could sell.
> 
> At one point, they even sold central heating systems that were only designed to provide background heat, but kept that aspect quiet, and offered them as a bargain price option as they had smaller radiators and boiler.
> 
> ...


My son is a trainer and youre right, his training was very intense, long lasting (i cant remember the timescale, it wasnt 3 or 4 years, but it was one year minimum) but hes now training guys and the timescale is literally weeks initially, then they buddy up for a while and are assessed regularly for a period. Theyre not imbeciles when they are released into the working world....but, theres sacrifices in quality of course.
But the same is true everywhere, no-one does apprenticeships like they used to, everythings dumbed down, We've just taken on 2 trainees, one mechanical, one electrical, less time at college, more assessmets of work done by people who dont even see you do the work itself, its not a patch on what trainees had to do 30 years ago. Its reality unfortunately.


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## ClichéGuevara (2 Apr 2022)

One other factor that privatisation has influenced today is that previously, the 'profit' was pumped back in to the infrastructure.

Once privatised, that profit was paid out to shareholders, including pensions funds, so many of us are culpable, and they ran the supplies on the existing infrastructure, which is now well past it's point of being fit, and in need of massive investment.

This has been highlighted even further with the push for charging points, which cannot always happen, as the supply simply isn't up to delivering it to the points it is needed, and likewise, it's not always possible to put solar farms on fields, as they are at the smaller end of the network cabling, so it can't cope with the power generated.


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## ClichéGuevara (2 Apr 2022)

gbb said:


> My son is a trainer and youre right, his training was very intense, long lasting (i cant remember the timescale, it wasnt 3 or 4 years, but it was one year minimum) but hes now training guys and the timescale is literally weeks initially, then they buddy up for a while and are assessed regularly for a period. Theyre not imbeciles when they are released into the working world....but, theres sacrifices in quality of course.
> But the same is true everywhere, no-one does apprenticeships like they used to, everythings dumbed down, We've just taken on 2 trainees, one mechanical, one electrical, less time at college, more assessmets of work done by people who dont even see you do the work itself, its not a patch on what trainees had to do 30 years ago. Its reality unfortunately.



My mate was an assessor, and he chucked it as he was losing sleep from what he had seen some of these 'trained' people doing.


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## gbb (5 Apr 2022)

Our monthly outlay for both electricity and gas (actual readings not estimated) is generally around £130 total.
This last bill before the increases, £110.

Be interesting to see what next months bill beholds.


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## aferris2 (5 Apr 2022)

Just checked my account with Scotish Power. They gave me these tempting offers....





We're currently on £200 per month (yes it is a big house!)

Our fixed rate contract ran out earlier this year so we've been on the variable rate ever since. I've been checking the smart meter regularly to see if there's any update to the rates but it's still stuck on the pre-April rates.
Anyone noticed how hard it is to find the current charges on the websites? In the case of Scotish Power, it seems this is impossible.


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## fossyant (5 Apr 2022)

aferris2 said:


> Just checked my account with Scotish Power. They gave me these tempting offers....
> View attachment 638716
> 
> We're currently on £200 per month (yes it is a big house!)
> ...



I had similar offers from SP but my bill is/was about £250-£300 pm.

Cut the hot tub luxury use right down, don't heat water unless we decide we use it. Saved more than the increase in the bill. Will revise the DD back down next month.


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## MrGrumpy (5 Apr 2022)

aferris2 said:


> Just checked my account with Scotish Power. They gave me these tempting offers....
> View attachment 638716
> 
> We're currently on £200 per month (yes it is a big house!)
> ...


Wtf !!! I’m in a large 5 bed , and currently paying £260 by DD to cover both . Fixed deals are to be avoided by all accounts !


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## MrGrumpy (5 Apr 2022)

fossyant said:


> I had similar offers from SP but my bill is/was about £250-£300 pm.
> 
> Cut the hot tub luxury use right down, don't heat water unless we decide we use it. Saved more than the increase in the bill. Will revise the DD back down next month.


Yes hot tub will be staying in the shed this year ! No way I’m a burning that over spring/ summer !


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## fossyant (5 Apr 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Yes hot tub will be staying in the shed this year ! No way I’m a burning that over spring/ summer !



They don't pack/ unpack well - plastic is too cold to fold properly. Leave up.


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## midlife (5 Apr 2022)

British Gas who supply me with electric dropped me a letter today to say that my fixed rate ends at the end of this month and I'm back on their variable rate. Yep, knew that. Yearly electric bill goes from £2000 to £3000 according to them, then add in the oil bill for the heating  

I can absorb the cost but blimey there must be millions of people staring into the abyss......


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## MrGrumpy (6 Apr 2022)

fossyant said:


> They don't pack/ unpack well - plastic is too cold to fold properly. Leave up.


Hmm might pump it up then and weight it down .


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## ebikeerwidnes (6 Apr 2022)

Article in a few papers yesterday saying that there is legislation going through allowing energy companies to make smart meters sending updates every 30 minutes the default.
You can opt out and make it different e.g. once a day.
This, as the articles say , leads into having the price change depending on the time of day.
Hence - at peak times the price can be raised to give people an incentive to use less then - then at times of lower demand the price can be lowered to encourage people to use more .

When I was with Octopus (or Bulb - I forget) I had a message saing that they were looking at this - and in the extreme they could even end up paying you to use excess electricity at times when the generation was there but no-one wqas using it - e.e. if the nuclear power stations are on idle they still produce electricity but in the middle of the night no-one is using it.
One concept was that you could potentially charge your car up and get paid to do it!!

Seems like a good idea to some extent - but it would make life more complicated for people - and some people don;t have a lot of choices about what they can do when.



Also - to be cynical (what me - surely not!!) you have to suspect someone in the energy company is looking at this and wondering how they can 'leverage' (i.e. use) this to increase profits without it looking like they are putting prices up!


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## aferris2 (6 Apr 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Wtf !!! I’m in a large 5 bed , and currently paying £260 by DD to cover both . Fixed deals are to be avoided by all accounts !


Yeah. Listed building so solid walls and no double glazing although we do have as much insulation in the attic as possible. We are allowed to fit secondary double glazing but it looks pretty awful and we do like the traditional look.

I don't think it's possible to sign up for the standard variable (capped) rate with SP. I guess this just loses money for them so they push the fixed term "deals" which must fall outside the cap. Are they allowed to overcharge on fixed term deals to make up for the losses on the variable rate?


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## MrGrumpy (6 Apr 2022)

aferris2 said:


> Yeah. Listed building so solid walls and no double glazing although we do have as much insulation in the attic as possible. We are allowed to fit secondary double glazing but it looks pretty awful and we do like the traditional look.
> 
> I don't think it's possible to sign up for the standard variable (capped) rate with SP. I guess this just loses money for them so they push the fixed term "deals" which must fall outside the cap. Are they allowed to overcharge on fixed term deals to make up for the losses on the variable rate?


I dunno about the deals but dreading Sept when I renew. When I jumped on this current deal it was an extra £100 a month what I had already been paying from previous year. Currently in the green as of this month and should be more in credit as we move through spring and summer. 

Our house is fairly modern so timber frame cavity insulation etc . Double glazing albeit , we were quoted £26k to change them to more modern glazing . ( we have alot of windows ! ) . Energy bill is going to be a lot more than my current mortgage payment !


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## gavroche (6 Apr 2022)

And the price of vegetables is due to go up by 30% too. That's only the start, everything else will follow. Millions are going to be in the poverty line by the end of the year. Gloomy picture indeed and no one knows how far it is going to go.


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## fossyant (6 Apr 2022)

gavroche said:


> And the price of vegetables is due to go up by 30% too. That's only the start, everything else with follow. Millions are going to be in the poverty line by the end of the year. Gloomy picture indeed and no one knows how far it is going to go.



It's not looking good - we've had an increase in student's needing additional financial help to get to placements. Some are in financial dire straights


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## Mike_P (6 Apr 2022)

Wonder how much would be saved nationally if 
frozen vegetables were boiled solely for the 2.5-6 minutes recommended on the packets.


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## PaulSB (6 Apr 2022)

Mike_P said:


> Wonder how much would be saved nationally if
> frozen vegetables were boiled solely for the 2.5-6 minutes recommended on the packets.


They'd be pulp after 6 minutes. Microwave is far better for frozen veg and cheaper.


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## Mike_P (6 Apr 2022)

It was range of cooking instructions I was quoting, the carrots bring the 6 mins .


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## Alex321 (6 Apr 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> Article in a few papers yesterday saying that there is legislation going through allowing energy companies to make smart meters sending updates every 30 minutes the default.
> You can opt out and make it different e.g. once a day.
> This, as the articles say , leads into having the price change depending on the time of day.
> Hence - at peak times the price can be raised to give people an incentive to use less then - then at times of lower demand the price can be lowered to encourage people to use more .
> ...


That is the way the Octopus Agile tariff works - they have gone beyond "looking at it" now. And they also have a similar outgoing tariff for those with solar or other generating capacity.

But the incoming tariff is capped at 35p/KwH and most of the time recently it has been sitting at that. The outgoing tariff has no such cap, and has often been more than 35p recently.


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## aferris2 (9 Apr 2022)

I've just received a reply to my query about the current variable rate charges from Scotish Power. Aparently I have to wait until the next bill arrives to find out. Wow, thanks!
I've suggested that I pay what my smart meter is showing (given that it still hasn't updated the rates since November (I write these things down...)


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## icowden (12 Apr 2022)

Bulb are still pretty good. I'm estimated £203 for gas and electric for a 4 bed house for April. Switching to variable tariff seems to have made a big difference. winter months are estimated at £350-£400 a month with the new prices which is a bit painful but could be a bit misleading as they seem to be reflecting my account balance rather than power usage, but could be a new projected cost based on usage and current prices.

That said, the estimates are probably based on previous usage. Hot water is now restricted to early mornings and evenings only and thermostat has been lowered by a degree during the day and 4 degrees at night - so that will help a bit on the gas front.


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## MrGrumpy (12 Apr 2022)

Have you just switched to variable ? I’m still in a fixed deal till Sept but fear similar monthly out goings on energy.


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## icowden (12 Apr 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Have you just switched to variable ? I’m still in a fixed deal till Sept but fear similar monthly out goings on energy.


Seems to be an automatic switch triggered by changing my smart meter readings to every 30 minutes.


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## gbb (12 Apr 2022)

icowden said:


> Bulb are still pretty good. I'm estimated £203 for gas and electric for a 4 bed house for April. Switching to variable tariff seems to have made a big difference. winter months are estimated at £350-£400 a month with the new prices which is a bit painful but could be a bit misleading as they seem to be reflecting my account balance rather than power usage, but could be a new projected cost based on usage and current prices.
> 
> That said, the estimates are probably based on previous usage. Hot water is now restricted to early mornings and evenings only and thermostat has been lowered by a degree during the day and 4 degrees at night - so that will help a bit on the gas front.


I can't definitevely say i'm right but here's what i found many years ago (following a discussion at work, comparing hot water left on all the time vs timed periods)
At that time, we always switched ours on early afternoon, nice hot water for the evening baths.
Colleague said this is wrong, you should leave it on all the time, that way you're only trickling in heat to keep a tank hot.

So i spent a month, reading the gas meter daily under our normal regime.
Then spent a month with the hot water left on permanently, reading the meter daily.

We used less gas with the latter. I have left our on ever since.


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## mjr (12 Apr 2022)

gbb said:


> I can't definitevely say i'm right but here's what i found many years ago (following a discussion at work, comparing hot water left on all the time vs timed periods)
> At that time, we always switched ours on early afternoon, nice hot water for the evening baths.
> Colleague said this is wrong, you should leave it on all the time, that way you're only trickling in heat to keep a tank hot.
> 
> ...


The big question mark there, of course, the weather. Was it warming or cooling between the two months?

I'd expect keeping it hot even when not needed to use more energy because a hotter tank cools more (it's proportional to the difference in temperature to the outside) and there will also be more heat lost in the trip around the pipes because the tank-to-boiler side will be warmer than if you did a couple of big heatings each day.

I now have smart meters so I can look at what our system does and there was a while after the meters were fitted that it kept the tank hot, before we switched to reheating it only at certain times unless it's nearly empty. The heat output consumed by hot water in three restricted-reheating weeks was 75.6kWh, 84.6kWh and 70kWh while keeping it hot needed 87kWh, 84.2kWh, 85kWh. That's enough of a difference for me not to switch back.

It's possible that usage patterns varied wildly or other confounding factors (but I did exclude a week where we were away 3 days), so I'd welcome any other reports.


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## gbb (12 Apr 2022)

mjr said:


> The big question mark there, of course, the weather. Was it warming or cooling between the two months?
> 
> I'd expect keeping it hot even when not needed to use more energy because a hotter tank cools more (it's proportional to the difference in temperature to the outside) and there will also be more heat lost in the trip around the pipes because the tank-to-boiler side will be warmer than if you did a couple of big heatings each day.
> 
> ...


Its pertinant but i can't remember specifics. Two months, there would have been outdoor temperature differences that may well have influenced gas useage a bit but, while i can't remember the details, it wasnt a ...meh, maybe its a saving, it was a definate difference.
TBF, our habits are pretty...habitual , we always did, and always will bathe every night, washing etc is pretty much what it is week in week out, we never did use the heating a lot so i don't think there would have been any major useage differences at the time .

It'd be interesting to do the same again. I might end up with a different outcome, who knows.


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## MrGrumpy (12 Apr 2022)

gbb said:


> I can't definitevely say i'm right but here's what i found many years ago (following a discussion at work, comparing hot water left on all the time vs timed periods)
> At that time, we always switched ours on early afternoon, nice hot water for the evening baths.
> Colleague said this is wrong, you should leave it on all the time, that way you're only trickling in heat to keep a tank hot.
> 
> ...


My heating is set to be in all the time , temp is set or for during the day and another temp set for night time. Hot water is times morning and night. I guess for the hot water , heat loss should not be huge with modern not water tanks ? Mine is tepid to touch . So I’m guessing minimal heat loss .


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## icowden (12 Apr 2022)

gbb said:


> Colleague said this is wrong, you should leave it on all the time, that way you're only trickling in heat to keep a tank hot.


The problem is that there are a *lot* of variables. For example if you have something like a MegaFlo then yes, always on is more efficient. If you have a standard hot water tank that leaches heat, then I suspect that heating when needed is probably going to take less energy. In my case I measured and my energy use dropped by about a third after I had adjusted the thermostat and hot water.


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## mjr (12 Apr 2022)

gbb said:


> Its pertinant but i can't remember specifics. Two months, there would have been outdoor temperature differences that may well have influenced gas useage a bit but, [...] i don't think there would have been any major useage differences at the time .


To be clear, I'm not suggesting that the usage would be different because you acted differently because of the weather, but rather that the tank would lose more heat if it was generally colder.

@MrGrumpy is correct that a modern very-insulated tank wouldn't suffer from this too much, but I thought we were talking about many years ago, so it probably would.


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## presta (13 Apr 2022)

gbb said:


> I can't definitevely say i'm right but here's what i found many years ago (following a discussion at work, comparing hot water left on all the time vs timed periods)
> At that time, we always switched ours on early afternoon, nice hot water for the evening baths.
> Colleague said this is wrong, you should leave it on all the time, that way you're only trickling in heat to keep a tank hot.
> 
> ...


You can't expect very meaningful answers measuring this way because your measurement will be confounded by weather changes too much. When I compared my heating, I ran the system for one week timed then one week continuous on alternate weeks for two months, and recorded daily temperatures, then compared the average kWh/K for the timed weeks against the continuous weeks.

Using the system on the timer can't cost _more _than continuous, but the costs don't run in proportion to the duty cycle of the timer either. My system is timed to switch off for 7 hours each night, which is a 29% reduction, but the saving on gas is only about 7.9%. The reason for this is that when the system comes on, it warms up faster than it cools down when switched off, and the house continues to lose heat you've paid for all the time it remains warmer than it's surroundings, just like a storage heater. Heat loss doesn't stop and start at the same instants that the timer switches.

This shows what I mean, the blue trace is outside temperature, the green trace is inside, both from data logging thermometers, and the red trace is calculated data from a computer model of my heating system, which matches the measurements quite well. See how the temperature rises faster than it falls:





(The scaling of the plot is 1V/deg vertical, and 1s/hr horizontal)

Here's another plot, this time of modelled data. As before, red is inside air temperature, but I've made the outside temperature (blue) a constant 5 degrees, just for clarity. Green shows the inside surface of the inner leaf of the cavity wall, turquoise the outside surface of the inner leaf, violet the inside surface of the outer leaf, and grey the outside surface of the outer leaf. You can see how the thermal inertia of all the masonry smooths out the temperature variations, so that by the time you're at the surface in contact with the outside air, there's almost no daily variation in temperature at all.





This shows the outside surface of the wall (grey), and glass of a single glazed window (green) compared between timed and continuous, you can see how little difference there is on the wall, but comparatively more on the window, because they have less thermal inertia.





Finally, this shows how the heating consumption varies as you change the daily heating hours from 0 to 24. You can see that the savings are not in proportion to the cut in hours. At 17 hours on-time (29% less than 24 hours), the model is calculating a saving of 8.4% on the power consumed, which tallies fairly well with the data I measured at 7.9%.


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## gbb (3 May 2022)

Well, the reality hits.
Last months combined bill was £110
This months, just in, £208.

Thats heck of leap. Wasnt a particually cold winter, didnt / dont use the heating much although we do use the hot water heavily. I will have a look later at the actual readings and see if theres much difference in actual useage.

For us, its a leap but we can carry it. How on earth people close to the breadline are going to manage...?


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## MontyVeda (3 May 2022)

in other news, BP are reporting huge profits


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## SpokeyDokey (3 May 2022)

MontyVeda said:


> in other news, BP are reporting huge profits



Where's the angry emoticon when you want it?


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## Jody (3 May 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Where's the angry emoticon when you want it?


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## SpokeyDokey (3 May 2022)

Jody said:


>



I don't have that one in the 'likes' options.


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## fossyant (4 May 2022)

Our 'changes' to wasting energy have had a big effect. If we 'exclude' winter just gone, our typical dual fuel month was about £260 before the price rises (was hitting over £300 in winter). March was £190, this month £220 (new prices). Down side is Scottish Power only letting me bring down my DD by about £30 a month, and I'm £320 in credit. I'll be about £450 in credit next month.... 

Dryer and hot tub was our energy wasters, oh and oil radiators for the conservatory whilst I worked - a jumper is 'fine', as is a dehumidifier and a clothes horse for washing.  Scandalous when you think what we wasted by not turning the 'tub' down, and being lazy with the dryer. I think we've used the dryer twice on low for things we needed 'dry' promptly. We are still using the hot tub, but pick one night a week !

I can live with £220. No doubt it will creep up in November - February, but doing your own reading once a month, or more, helps ! I'm still hearing many instances of power companies not billing accurately, or timely when folk have a smart meter.


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## mjr (4 May 2022)

fossyant said:


> I'm still hearing many instances of power companies not billing accurately, or timely when folk have a smart meter.


Where? And what's been going wrong? I've dug quite a bit and found exactly one real recent instance, where OVO failed to allow for the random offset of smart meter billing periods (which is there so that when we go "smart grid", not everyone's cheaper electricity will start at the same time and lead to mass switch-ons spiking the demand and knocking things out) and were asking for a day's usage data before the meter's day had completed, so they were getting 23.5-hour days and miscalculating the bills as a result.

A lot of the complaints about smart meters seem to be about them failing to connect to the network, or about them not switching providers cleanly (even more so with the energy company collapses), but in that situation, I think you're no worse off than you were with a dumb meter.


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## MrGrumpy (4 May 2022)

mjr said:


> A lot of the complaints about smart meters seem to be about them failing to connect to the network, or about them not switching providers cleanly (even more so with the energy company collapses), but in that situation, I think you're no worse off than you were with a dumb meter.



I agree , end of the day they are under the hood just a dumb meter. My experience is disconnect from the network after a provider switch . The small display unit for me is not much use . However it’s there to help you see what’s burning the fuel !


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## PaulSB (5 May 2022)

What a difference a month makes gas consumption dropped from 430kWh to 139kWh and electricity remains stable at +/- 180. I did adjust the thermostat and CH timings on April 1st but it's impossible to know the impact of this as the weather warms.


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## PaulSB (5 May 2022)

mjr said:


> A lot of the complaints about smart meters seem to be about them failing to connect to the network, or about them not switching providers cleanly (even more so with the energy company collapses), but in that situation, I think you're no worse off than you were with a dumb meter.



This is the case in my house and locally though I'm not complaining. My old gas meter was very difficult to read, especially in winter, as the glass panel was usually covered by internal condensation. I opted for smart meters on the basis it would replace two old ones and be easier to use. The display has never worked which I understand is an issue with the HAN communications and the information has never been communicated to the supplier as the WAN in our locality has issues - no one in our village has a working smart meter in this sense and I know of others in the neighbouring village with the same issue. British Gas say they are aware of the WAN issue and it will be resolved in three weeks time - that was in January!!! 

I can't say I'm very bothered, I wanted new meters and got them for free. Yes, I have the inconvenience of submitting, and recording for myself, the monthly readings but I don't see this as a particular hardship. The downside is I have to use the BG website which is absolute shite.

I keep meaning to plug in the display to see if it now works but I can't find it - one of those things I've put away in a safe place!!! 

I don't really understand all the fuss. A smart meter was never going to cut my consumption, only I can do that.


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## Scaleyback (5 May 2022)

PaulSB said:


> I don't really understand all the fuss. A smart meter was never going to cut my consumption, only I can do that.


Well said. IMO the energy companies are disingenuous in their approach to promoting 'smart meters' as if the actural smart meter is a fuel saving device ! Users need to have an appreciation of the energy consumption of various devices. Most people wouldn't consider buying a car without some knowledge of it's fuel conumption they need to carry this approach into their 'white goods' etc.


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## Mike_P (5 May 2022)

I used a electric consumption reading monitor (think it was from Maplin when they had stores) which gave a quite clear reading of the actual electric consumption at the time it was viewed; useful when thinking everything that should be off was off but why is the consumption so high? The smart meter I have is not so smart and also still fails to give a gas reading despite the metres being next to each other. Too far away said Shell Energy!


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## mjr (5 May 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> Well said. IMO the energy companies are disingenuous in their approach to promoting 'smart meters' as if the actural smart meter is a fuel saving device !


They could be. Smart meters have a few ways to signal devices to switch on and off with changing energy availability, like a more sophisticated version of Economy 7 or the various overnight electric vehicle charging plans. I'm not sure any suppliers are using it yet, though... and the cynic would ask why would they enable it right now.


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## rogerzilla (5 May 2022)

Tumble dryers really don't use that much, because they're not on for long. In winter, I suppose I dry two loads a week. 100 mins on half heat is about 2.5kWh, or 70p. So £3 a month, which is worth it not to have a damp house. The big electricity user (hot tubs excepted) in a gas-heated home is the fridge-freezer.


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## Electric_Andy (5 May 2022)

rogerzilla said:


> Tumble dryers really don't use that much, because they're not on for long. In winter, I suppose I dry two loads a week. 100 mins on half heat is about 2.5kWh, or 70p. So £3 a month, which is worth it not to have a damp house. The big electricity user (hot tubs excepted) in a gas-heated home is the fridge-freezer.



I hadn't thought about that really. I have gas central heating but my fridge and freezer are next to the kitchen radiator so it's been turned off since I moved in. I had thought about moving the fridge so I can have the radiator on (the kitchen feels like a good 5 degrees colder than the rest of the house) but maybe now I'll re-consider.


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## rogerzilla (5 May 2022)

Another point on tumble drying: energy efficiency ratings on vented dryers are not on the same scale as those on condenser dryers. Very few condenser dryers use less energy per cycle than a vented dryer, even though the vented dryer might be rated B or C and the condenser dryer A.


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## MontyVeda (6 May 2022)

Electric_Andy said:


> I hadn't thought about that really. I have gas central heating but my fridge and freezer are next to the kitchen radiator so it's been turned off since I moved in. I had thought about moving the fridge so I can have the radiator on (the kitchen feels like a good 5 degrees colder than the rest of the house) but maybe now I'll re-consider.



I don't have the radiator on in my kitchen either; logic is this... the fridge and freezer chuck out a bit of heat just by being 'on'. The oven and hob chucks out more when I'm cooking. Having three outside walls it's (in theory) the coldest room in the house, but it doesn't feel like it.


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## Milkfloat (6 May 2022)

rogerzilla said:


> Another point on tumble drying: energy efficiency ratings on vented dryers are not on the same scale as those on condenser dryers. Very few condenser dryers use less energy per cycle than a vented dryer, even though the vented dryer might be rated B or C and the condenser dryer A.



Both of which are terrible in efficiency compared to a heat pump dryer. I would recommend that anyone buying a new machine get a heat pump dryer unless you have very specific needs in terms of speed of drying or someone else is paying your electricity bill.


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## MrGrumpy (6 May 2022)

Milkfloat said:


> Both of which are terrible in efficiency compared to a heat pump dryer. I would recommend that anyone buying a new machine get a heat pump dryer unless you have very specific needs in terms of speed of drying or someone else is paying your electricity bill.


Hmm , nowt wrong with our current tumble dryer, I tend to not use it much. However others in the household do. As too lazy to leave clothes on the air dryer .

However I’m all ears for saving cash


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## Milkfloat (6 May 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Hmm , nowt wrong with our current tumble dryer, I tend to not use it much. However others in the household do. As too lazy to leave clothes on the air dryer .
> 
> However I’m all ears for saving cash



Heat pump dryer is about half the energy use, but twice the cost. You need to make sure you keep the heat pump model going for a few years to make it cheaper. With energy prices going up it could be pay back within a couple of years. However, better still is to dry it outside or use a dehumidifier.


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## presta (6 May 2022)

MontyVeda said:


> I don't have the radiator on in my kitchen either; logic is this... the fridge and freezer chuck out a bit of heat just by being 'on'. The oven and hob chucks out more when I'm cooking. Having three outside walls it's (in theory) the coldest room in the house, but it doesn't feel like it.



My kitchen gets like the inside of the freezer, even with the radiator full up. I think the problem is the condensing boiler, the old non-condensing one chucked out so much heat it was like having a second radiator.


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## mjr (6 May 2022)

presta said:


> My kitchen gets like the inside of the freezer, even with the radiator full up. I think the problem is the condensing boiler, the old non-condensing one chucked out so much heat it was like having a second radiator.


Condensing shouldn't itself make much difference to that. It sounds like your new boiler runs the heating at a lower flow temperature, which is good for efficiency but won't work if one of your radiators is undersized relative to the others.

You might also find that a younger plumber or one trained overseas has changed the system layout slightly from the bad old British habit of dumping energy through an "index" radiator near the boiler to plumbing it correctly so it doesn't get any priority, expecting your radiators to be balanced.


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## mjr (6 May 2022)

Milkfloat said:


> Heat pump dryer is about half the energy use, but twice the cost. You need to make sure you keep the heat pump model going for a few years to make it cheaper. With energy prices going up it could be pay back within a couple of years. However, better still is to dry it outside or use a dehumidifier.


This basically agrees and gives example numbers : Best Heat Pump Tumble Dryers 2022: Which? Best Buys & Expert Buying Guide - Which? – https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/tum...-pump-tumble-dryers-better-than-vented-dryers


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## PaulSB (6 May 2022)

All this talk of tumble dryers, does no one have a washing line? We try to wash on what my mother used to call "a good drying day." Yes, we do have a dryer but try to avoid using it.

A good tip to help dry clothes is an extra spin, ours last 13 minutes and some items come out almost dry.


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## Electric_Andy (6 May 2022)

PaulSB said:


> does no one have a washing line?



Not very effective when it's raining! And no-one has mentioned the argument my ex had: If dried on a line, you have to iron the clothes more. Often when they come out of the tumble drier, they can be folded neatly and worn without ironing. I don't have a tumble drier, so dry in the spare room with a dehumidifier, or out on the line when weather is ok, but still have to iron most things before they can be worn


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## dave r (6 May 2022)

PaulSB said:


> All this talk of tumble dryers, does no one have a washing line? We try to wash on what my mother used to call "a good drying day." Yes, we do have a dryer but try to avoid using it.
> 
> A good tip to help dry clothes is an extra spin, ours last 13 minutes and some items come out almost dry.



We only have the washing line and a clothes horse in the back bedroom.


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## MrGrumpy (6 May 2022)

PaulSB said:


> All this talk of tumble dryers, does no one have a washing line? We try to wash on what my mother used to call "a good drying day." Yes, we do have a dryer but try to avoid using it.
> 
> A good tip to help dry clothes is an extra spin, ours last 13 minutes and some items come out almost dry.



Yep have a washing line , which gets lots of use just now. However in winter no chance .


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## mjr (6 May 2022)

Electric_Andy said:


> Not very effective when it's raining! And no-one has mentioned the argument my ex had: If dried on a line, you have to iron the clothes more. Often when they come out of the tumble drier, they can be folded neatly and worn without ironing. I don't have a tumble drier, so dry in the spare room with a dehumidifier, or out on the line when weather is ok, but still have to iron most things before they can be worn


Reshape the clothes before hanging on the line and most things don't need ironing. You'll be lucky not to iron smart trousers, though.

No dryer here. Only the line and a heated tented airer. Not had a dryer since leaving parental home, except when renting furnished places with one. Not entirely sure my parents had one, but we children were kept away from the machines because they were a bit mission-critical with us mucky kids about!


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## vickster (6 May 2022)

I hang stuff on the line if the weather is suitable...however bedding always gets a 20 minute blast in the tumble dryer after to soften it up a bit...and get rid of the cat hair!!!


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## mistyoptic (6 May 2022)

I don’t have a tumble dryer…


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## Alex321 (6 May 2022)

PaulSB said:


> All this talk of tumble dryers, does no one have a washing line? We try to wash on what my mother used to call "a good drying day." Yes, we do have a dryer but try to avoid using it.



We try to use the line, but we live in Wales. "Good drying days" are rare.


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## youngoldbloke (6 May 2022)

I do all the washing (and ironing). The tumble drier will be the last appliance I'll give up.


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## mjr (7 May 2022)

youngoldbloke said:


> I do all the washing (and ironing). The tumble drier will be the last appliance I'll give up.


Really? You'd wash by hand first?


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## youngoldbloke (7 May 2022)

mjr said:


> Really? You'd wash by hand first?



OK - last but one laundry appliance ... or maybe buy a washer dryer?


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## rogerzilla (7 May 2022)

Besides the cost, heat pump dryers have a ludicrously long cycle time. Normally it's about 50% longer than for a condenser dryer (which is already longer than for a vented dryer) but can be overnight for a big load. It's basically tumbling stuff in lukewarm air for ages.

This is a funny (and profane) read: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/housek...-pump-dryer-to-take-EIGHT-HOURS-to-dry-a-load

But yes, hang stuff outside whenever weather and moronic local by-laws permit.


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## mjr (7 May 2022)

Oh god not the lukewarm heat pumps myth again. If you get an old one (that rant is 5 years old) or set it to eco mode sure but that is owner choice.


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## PaulSB (11 May 2022)

British Gas my supplier of last resort. You're certainly living up to your description lads! I send my readings every month:

April 11th £43.01 Bill cancelled and replaced
May 6th £43.01 - Bill cancelled and replaced
May 9th £43.01 - Bill.........................................just waiting for it to be cancelled and replaced next 

Hopeless, absolutely feckin' hopeless. I do keep a note of our meter readings and it looks as though I need to go right back to the day we started with them and check it all....again. Every small supplier outside the big six I've been with over 20 years was quick, accurate, efficient why oh why couldn't they have managed to survive. It is such a shame decent companies went to the wall and a useless dinosaur survived.


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## Ming the Merciless (11 May 2022)

mistyoptic said:


> I don’t have a tumble dryer…



I watch next doors tumble drier


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## numbnuts (11 May 2022)

mistyoptic said:


> I don’t have a tumble dryer…



I don't either, but I have two airing cupboards, one I can dry bedding in


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## Beebo (11 May 2022)

Just received our dual fuel direct debit from British Gas. £291 per month.
That’s doubled over night.


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## simongt (11 May 2022)

mjr said:


> Reshape the clothes before hanging on the line and most things don't need ironing.


Agree. Canna mind of the last time I used an iron. Think it was during my basic training back in '74. We don't even possess an ironing board - !


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## MrGrumpy (11 May 2022)

simongt said:


> Agree. Canna mind of the last time I used an iron. Think it was during my basic training back in '74. We don't even possess an ironing board - !



Just used mine for the first time in well over a year I think . Like riding a bike , you never forget


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## mjr (13 May 2022)

Beebo said:


> Just received our dual fuel direct debit from British Gas. £291 per month.
> That’s doubled over night.


There's a lot of that going on and much of it is dodgy. See https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2022/05/energy-direct-debit-hikes-mse-survey/


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## fossyant (13 May 2022)

Forgive me I have sinned, the dryer is on. Not currently got room for the airer as the house is a tip following some recent major DIY.


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## vickster (13 May 2022)

fossyant said:


> Forgive me I have sinned, the dryer is on. Not currently got room for the airer as the house is a tip following some recent major DIY.



Stick it outside...? I have just hung a load out myself, another is just finishing in the washer


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## fossyant (13 May 2022)

vickster said:


> Stick it outside...? I have just hung a load out myself, another is just finishing in the washer



I was too lazy !


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## presta (13 May 2022)

fossyant said:


> I was too lazy !



Unlike my old washer dryer, the new 'energy saving' one won't dry the load unless I keep taking it out and rearranging it, otherwise the middle of the bundle stays damp. With all that faff it's easier to use the line if the weather's fine.


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## FishFright (13 May 2022)

fossyant said:


> I was too lazy !



I think this will be the legacy of the early 21st Century. We could have done something to curb climate change and pollution but we really couldn't be arsed.


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## MrGrumpy (13 May 2022)

vickster said:


> Stick it outside...? I have just hung a load out myself, another is just finishing in the washer



It’s raining !


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## presta (13 May 2022)

mjr said:


> There's a lot of that going on and much of it is dodgy. See https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2022/05/energy-direct-debit-hikes-mse-survey/


Last September Martin Lewis was advising people to do nothing because the price cap was already the cheapest option. At that time I took out a Shell fixed price deal that was a 73% price hike, but now it's £600 cheaper than the current price cap, and it's fixed until Sept 2023.


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## dave r (13 May 2022)

vickster said:


> Stick it outside...? I have just hung a load out myself, another is just finishing in the washer




I've got washing on the line as well.


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## vickster (13 May 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> It’s raining !



Not here, bright, fairly warm, with a good drying breeze


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## lazybloke (13 May 2022)

presta said:


> Unlike my old washer dryer, the new 'energy saving' one won't dry the load unless I keep taking it out and rearranging it, otherwise the middle of the bundle stays damp. With all that faff it's easier to use the line if the weather's fine.


Too much in the load?


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## mjr (13 May 2022)

presta said:


> Last September Martin Lewis was advising people to do nothing because the price cap was already the cheapest option. At that time I took out a Shell fixed price deal that was a 73% price hike, but now it's £600 cheaper than the current price cap, and it's fixed until Sept 2023.
> View attachment 644465


Congratulations on effectively predicting the Russian invasion of Ukraine.


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## ColinJ (13 May 2022)

mjr said:


> Congratulations on effectively predicting the Russian invasion of Ukraine.



Given that it effectively started 8 years ago, it wasn't really a big leap of the imagination!


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## mjr (13 May 2022)

ColinJ said:


> Given that it effectively started 8 years ago, it wasn't really a big leap of the imagination!


ok, "new phase of". Pedants.


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## ColinJ (13 May 2022)

mjr said:


> ok, "new phase of". Pedants.



Given that Russia began its massive troop build-up on the Ukrainian border in March/April 2021, it _still _wasn't really a big leap of the imagination in September 2021! 

(I remember discussing this with friends last autumn and suggesting that an invasion would take place as soon as the worst of the coming winter was over with.)


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## rogerzilla (20 May 2022)

The price of firewood hasn't gone up much. You may even be able to scrounge it. My mother gets tons from a former neighbour with 7.5 acres of woodland and constantly falling trees.


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## simongt (22 May 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Like riding a bike , you never forget


Indeed. Under the watchful eye of one's drill sergeant, you very quickly learn how to avoid tramlines on your creases - !


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## PaulSB (24 May 2022)

Ofgem have indicated the price cap could reach £2800 pa in October. That's £54/week. I can't begin to imagine how low income households will cope with this.

I'm not bringing politics to this thread or forum but surely the government will have to find a solution? A £200 loan won't hack it.

In this house it will be slow cooker, microwave, blankets and I'll be upping my ongoing search for fallen trees. I'm also planning to get fuel in for the multi-fuel burner.


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## DCLane (24 May 2022)

I'm increasingly relieved to have fixed prices in Sept 2021, and concerned what it'll be at in Sept 2023. We're fortunate to be OK financially. Others absolutely won't be and with further price increases going into the winter rent/mortgage, fuel, food all going up something's got to give.


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## MrGrumpy (24 May 2022)

My mothers DD since she switched to her new rate has gone from £70 a month to £170 ! My current rate ends in Sept I’m expecting a big jump from what is already a large amount compared to some on here.


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## Electric_Andy (24 May 2022)

PaulSB said:


> I'll be upping my ongoing search for fallen trees



This is what my partner will be doing come winter. Any idea what the legalities are? There are fallen trees on council property round here, have been there for months. Are we allowed to just take a chainsaw to it?!


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## ebikeerwidnes (24 May 2022)

Electric_Andy said:


> This is what my partner will be doing come winter. Any idea what the legalities are? There are fallen trees on council property round here, have been there for months. Are we allowed to just take a chainsaw to it?!



I don't think you are supposed to take it away
They are left where they fall if it is safe because it encourages insect life that lives of rotting wood
which then encourages birds and animals

However, who is going to notice someone subtly chopping up a old tree and wandering off with a bag full of logs
and even if they do would they know it can be reported - and how wood () they know who you are


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## numbnuts (24 May 2022)

Electric_Andy said:


> This is what my partner will be doing come winter. Any idea what the legalities are? There are fallen trees on council property round here, have been there for months. Are we allowed to just take a chainsaw to it?!




No, even if you had “commoners rights” you still can't use a chain saw, but you may be allowed to take the fallen timber if carried out without the use of any machinery.


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## ebikeerwidnes (24 May 2022)

ANother point about burning wood is that using 'green' wood produces a lot of local pollution

You should really leave it to season - i.e. dry out properly
Exactly ho to do this can be found on the WWW - but it looks like it needs to be stored properly - outdoors - for at least 6 months

which suggests planning and fore thought are needed


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## mjr (24 May 2022)

Electric_Andy said:


> This is what my partner will be doing come winter. Any idea what the legalities are? There are fallen trees on council property round here, have been there for months.


It ain't yours. It might be there for a reason. Mitts off unless you ask.

As for the morality, if you do get someone lets you take some wood, dry it out properly else you'll be polluting the air for you and your neighbours, so if you haven't already got this winter's wood, get it from someone who's dried it.

I'm not as against wood-burning as some, but I detest the stinky brown and black smoke some people spew from their burners running badly on dirty fuel.


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## mjr (24 May 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> You should really leave it to season - i.e. dry out properly
> Exactly ho to do this can be found on the WWW - but it looks like it needs to be stored properly - outdoors - for at least 6 months


Crossed in the post. I think 6 months needs a drier climate than anywhere in the UK. https://uk-air.defra.gov.uk/assets/...1903131256_Seasoning_Wood_Web_Feb_2019_V5.pdf says drying is "likely to take two summers or more".


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## glasgowcyclist (24 May 2022)

I season my wood for at least 18 months before it’s ready to burn. Can’t see it taking much less anywhere else in the UK. 



numbnuts said:


> No, even if you had “commoners rights” you still can't use a chain saw, but you may be allowed to take the fallen timber if carried out without the use of any machinery.



Where does this prohibition on using a chainsaw come from? I appreciate we have different laws in our respective countries but it would be good to know.

Up here you can (or at least could) get a brashing licence to take fallen timber from specified forestry commission areas. I get enough from my own trees or neighbours wanting rid of theirs to keep my supply going.


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## MrGrumpy (24 May 2022)

glasgowcyclist said:


> I season my wood for at least 18 months before it’s ready to burn. Can’t see it taking much less anywhere else in the UK.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Couple of years ago my neighbour and I got in about a huge fallen sycamore tree blocking a path. Was dead standing for a while so dry as a bone . Anyway we filled my trailer 4 times and my boot twice . Shared out when we got back home , was still burning it this year . 

Always on the scavenge for wood , need to stock up over summer be it I buy some or collect some . Winter is going to be interesting


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## Mike_P (24 May 2022)

Mines now gone up even more, from £53 to £133 a month; still puzzled why Shell Energy cut it from £60 a few months back when they are now saying I am £110 in debit.


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## PaulSB (24 May 2022)

Re harvesting wood when trees fall on public land we contact the council and ask permission to take them. It's very rare we need to do this as there is enough private woodland to keep us going.

My winter 2022/3 wood is already logged and stacked, about half remains to be split and stacked. The trees I'm looking for will be for 23/24. I've probably got enough for 23/24 already under normal circumstances but not if we use the stove for heating rather than as a supplement to the CH.

As we have a multi-fuel stove I've started investigating smokeless fuels as I find these generate a lot of heat for very little input. Normally we just use this for the odd occasion we want to bank up the stove. I've seen this advertised at £275-300 for 500kg and I'm thinking of getting a load delivered. If our energy bill hits £2800 as predicted I'll be looking at £54/week which makes £300 look cheap.

Our stove easily heats the backroom and kitchen with enough drifting upstairs. Banked up it will still be "in when we get up. Move the telly into the backroom. Job done.


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## oldwheels (24 May 2022)

glasgowcyclist said:


> I season my wood for at least 18 months before it’s ready to burn. Can’t see it taking much less anywhere else in the UK.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not done it recently but we could take waste wood from felled bits of forest and I did see somebody recently with a trailer doing just that by the roadside.
In the mid 1970,s we had no coal merchant and every weekend for months the sound of chainsaws filled the air anywhere there was dryish timber as the whole population got firewood.


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## MontyVeda (24 May 2022)

simongt said:


> Agree. Canna mind of the last time I used an iron. Think it was during my basic training back in '74. We don't even possess an ironing board - !


Last time i used the iron was when i put new curtains up; so about three years ago.
I find that providing I get the laundry out of the machine within a few minutes of it ending, nothing needs ironing. Not even my work trousers


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## Alex321 (24 May 2022)

Electric_Andy said:


> This is what my partner will be doing come winter. Any idea what the legalities are? There are fallen trees on council property round here, have been there for months. Are we allowed to just take a chainsaw to it?!



Not usually. Some councils will allow you to take away fallen wood if you can carry it, but not allow you to take a chainsaw to it.

But technically, taking it without the owners permission is theft (and by default any fallen wood belongs to the landowner).

You could always contact the council and ask, but they will probably want to charge you a fee for it.

I'm always on the lookout for cheap or free wood for my lathe.


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## Alex321 (24 May 2022)

glasgowcyclist said:


> I season my wood for at least 18 months before it’s ready to burn. Can’t see it taking much less anywhere else in the UK.


Depends on how thick the logs are, and to an extent on the wood - Ash dries quite quickly for instance.

But that is a pretty good rule of thumb for typical firewood sized logs. Drying larger wood properly for things like woodturning, the general rule is around a year per inch of thickness.


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## SpokeyDokey (24 May 2022)

PaulSB said:


> Re harvesting wood when trees fall on public land we contact the council and ask permission to take them. It's very rare we need to do this as there is enough private woodland to keep us going.
> 
> My winter 2022/3 wood is already logged and stacked, about half remains to be split and stacked. The trees I'm looking for will be for 23/24. I've probably got enough for 23/24 already under normal circumstances but not if we use the stove for heating rather than as a supplement to the CH.
> 
> ...



Our smokeless fuel is £24 for 50kg from the local coal/not-coal man.


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## gbb (25 May 2022)

Well one colleague at work is doing very well...
Lucasz is remarkably inventive (and quite anal at times) He's invested in solar panels, quite a lot of them apparently, the batteries he's used to store power alone cost iro £3k
His last monthly electric bill £8 ...yes, £8! 

I say quite anal, he brought another colleagues 2001 Octavia TDI, he regularly gets 70 plus mpg out of it, but he drives at odds with almost everyone else (50mph on the motorway for instance) if his wife turns on something g...he knows, rings her and asks what she is doing (Her words)


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## kingrollo (25 May 2022)

Mine has gone from £90 around a year ago - to £225 per month i. Thankfully no mortgage - but with 3 adults WFH its going to get expensive.


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## vickster (25 May 2022)

kingrollo said:


> Mine has gone from £90 around a year ago - to £225 per month i. Thankfully no mortgage - but with 3 adults WFH its going to get expensive.



Can you go to an office?


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## MrGrumpy (25 May 2022)

vickster said:


> Can you go to an office?



To cook, shower , sleep


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## vickster (25 May 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> To cook, shower , sleep



So as to not WFH which was specifically mentioned. Plenty of workplaces have showers…
Don’t need lots of power for sleeping.
Salad doesn’t need cooking


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## kingrollo (25 May 2022)

vickster said:


> Can you go to an office?



not easily. even then the other 2 WFH people would be home most days.


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## vickster (25 May 2022)

kingrollo said:


> not easily. even then the other 2 WFH people would be home most days.



At least they are working and can contribute


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## OldShep (25 May 2022)

glasgowcyclist said:


> I season my wood for at least 18 months before it’s ready to burn. Can’t see it taking much less anywhere else in the UK.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It’s been 40 yrs since I hade a brashing licence something like 50pence a year.
More recently when I was still working I used to buy up end of stacks but the FC made it very clear I wasn’t to use a chainsaw unless I had a CS licence and appropriate insurance . Thankfully i had a fore end loader at my disposal.


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## Illaveago (26 May 2022)

An advert popped up on my screen advertising a local fitness gym . It then occurred to me that with all of the energy price rises that they are going to be hit by people not attending or cancelling their membership due to the rising costs . A bit of a change to a few years ago when they started springing up all around our town .


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## gbb (26 May 2022)

Illaveago said:


> An advert popped up on my screen advertising a local fitness gym . It then occurred to me that with all of the energy price rises that they are going to be hit by people not attending or cancelling their membership due to the rising costs . A bit of a change to a few years ago when they started springing up all around our town


Many businesses like this might suffer as people make hard (you could argue easy) choices.
Pampering (nails, cosmetics), luxury services of any kind, all sorts.


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## cyberknight (29 May 2022)

kingrollo said:


> Mine has gone from £90 around a year ago - to £225 per month i. Thankfully no mortgage - but with 3 adults WFH its going to get expensive.



indeed , mine was £90 now £185 so this years pay rise basically covers keeping warm and the kids connected to the interweb, i do have a mortgage


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## PaulSB (5 Jun 2022)

I submit monthly utility readings to BG. Did this earlier today and got a gobsmacking bill of £331.52 - double what I expected. I couldn't fathom it online so had to print and check every bill since December 1st. I've paid everything BG requested. What I didn't spot was BG had failed to bill us since March 30th.

We haven't had an accurate bill since we joined BG in November. I'm going to the ombudsman with this bunch of feckin' incompetent fools.


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## fossyant (5 Jun 2022)

PaulSB said:


> I submit monthly utility readings to BG. Did this earlier today and got a gobsmacking bill of £331.52 - double what I expected. I couldn't fathom it online so had to print and check every bill since December 1st. I've paid everything BG requested. What I didn't spot was BG had failed to bill us since March 30th.
> 
> We haven't had an accurate bill since we joined BG in November. I'm going to the ombudsman with this bunch of feckin' incompetent fools.



Are you DD, your amounts shoud have gone up


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## PaulSB (5 Jun 2022)

fossyant said:


> Are you DD, your amounts shoud have gone up



Nope, we're paying monthly. This is not my choice but at BG's insistence. I want to pay a regular amount by DD and receive a monthly bill to check usage etc. 

BG tell me they have two types of account:

DD and billed six monthly
Pay monthly on bill receipt and obviously billed monthly
Apparently the BG system cannot accommodate what every other energy supplier I have used can which is monthly DD and monthly billing. At the best of times this would be ridiculous but in times when everyone is stretched and budgeting is more important then ever it is a very real problem. I haven't used BG in perhaps 25 years, they are my "supplier of last resort," never have words been so true.


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## fossyant (5 Jun 2022)

I have a regular DD, give Scottish Power my readings monthly, then can adjust said DD where needed - either up or down within their estimated yearly bill. I'm currently reducing the DD as we've slashed energy use (mainly the hot tub) but they will only allow a reduction of £30 a month as each new bill is processed based on readings. I'm about £400 in credit. Well worth setting up a spreadsheet to monitor use/cost at the moment - just use all the data on the bill. I got caught out badly over the winter of 2020/21 by not doing the reading for 3 months with WFH - cost of heating the summerhouse and conservatory were high, so my DD's were on catch up for 6 months.


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## PaulSB (5 Jun 2022)

fossyant said:


> *either up or down within their estimated yearly bill.*


This is exactly how I have worked for as long as possible as the advent of online billing etc gave the opportunity. Prior to this we used a DD which was expected to cover the annual cost by building up a summer credit etc. which usually worked well. Online billing was fantastic as I was able to control the DD to closely match consumption.

We've been offered the chance to fix till June '23. This morning's task is to analyse usage for the winter from historical bills with other suppliers to assess if a fixed rate is a viable option. On the face of it the fix will be no worse than the forecast increase from October.

In the last few minutes I've discovered the unit cost I am being billed at is lower than the tariff showing in my online account. One just couldn't make up the utter incompetence which is BG, they don't deserve to survive when much better companies in terms of customer service, flexibilty etc. have gone to the wall.


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## fossyant (5 Jun 2022)

People sag off Scottish Power, but I've had no difficulty, and their on-line billing etc is responsive with meter readings.


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## midlife (5 Jun 2022)

Being really old fashioned I pay BG quarterly when the bill drops through the door. It does appear in my online account but I make them wait.....

Paying 3 months in one go does concentrate te mind when it's 4 figures next time!


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## PaulSB (5 Jun 2022)

fossyant said:


> People sag off Scottish Power, but I've had no difficulty, and their on-line billing etc is responsive with meter readings.



My son is in Supported Living in the Community and I run the utility account with Scottish Power on behalf of the residents.

Agree with what you say and part of today's task will be to look at a switch to SP.


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## Kingfisher101 (8 Jun 2022)

I pay when I read the meters. The gas was £250 for 3 months and the electric for 1 month was £53.00. For the same month May last year it was £38.00. The Gas was about £30.00 more expensive for the quarter.


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## fossyant (8 Jun 2022)

All I would say, is don't let the bills run for 3 months before checking, unless it's a low useage household, and you've not reviewed what you are paying. At least with Scottish Power, they give me the last 3 years use, both cost and KWh, so I can compare - cost isn't a great comparison since April.


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## rogerzilla (9 Jun 2022)

midlife said:


> Being really old fashioned I pay BG quarterly when the bill drops through the door. It does appear in my online account but I make them wait.....
> 
> Paying 3 months in one go does concentrate te mind when it's 4 figures next time!


They charge you more for paying that way, though.


----------



## kingrollo (10 Jun 2022)

Mine has go from £80pm - to £225 a month in the space of a year. thankfully I don't have a mortgage so not to much stress - but im living on the edge - still got 11 speed di2 - which makes me physically sick every time I look at it - its though its mocking me "Not got 12 speed yet"


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## Scaleyback (10 Jun 2022)

kingrollo said:


> Mine has go from £80pm - to £225 a month in the space of a year. thankfully I don't have a mortgage so not to much stress - but im living on the edge - still got 11 speed di2 - which makes me physically sick every time I look at it - its though its mocking me "Not got 12 speed yet"



That is a huge jump ? I also was paying Octopus £80.00 a month a year ago. I am now paying £160.00 a month that is certainly more than adequate at this time of the year. Probably need to increase again come octobers expected hike.


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## Kingfisher101 (10 Jun 2022)

rogerzilla said:


> They charge you more for paying that way, though.



Yes but you just pay for what you use. I was reading a conversation about energy on Twitter and a woman who had worked in the energy industry advised this.People seem to be paying an awful lot via DD and estimates.
You know that £400 off everyone is getting , will this be on the electric does anyone know please?


----------



## Alex321 (10 Jun 2022)

Kingfisher101 said:


> Yes but you just pay for what you use. I was reading a conversation about energy on Twitter and a woman who had worked in the energy industry advised this.People seem to be paying an awful lot via DD and estimates.
> You know that £400 off everyone is getting , will this be on the electric does anyone know please?



The "woman who worked in the energy industry" had a vested interest in people paying more.

You WILL pay more for your energy overall if you don't pay by DD. You only pay for what you use, no matter how you pay for it, but they all have either a discount for paying by DD, or a surcharge for not doing so.


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## Kingfisher101 (10 Jun 2022)

Alex321 said:


> The "woman who worked in the energy industry" had a vested interest in people paying more.
> 
> You WILL pay more for your energy overall if you don't pay by DD. You only pay for what you use, no matter how you pay for it, but they all have either a discount for paying by DD, or a surcharge for not doing so.



No she didnt because she no longer worked in it.
People who are on DD appear to be having massive price hikes, that I'm certainly not experiencing. Yes its going up a bit but not hundreds each month for my household.


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## Mo1959 (10 Jun 2022)

Kingfisher101 said:


> No she didnt because she no longer worked in it.
> People who are on DD appear to be having massive price hikes, that I'm certainly not experiencing. Yes its going up a bit but not hundreds each month for my household.



If they are overpaying, they will get it back. A unit of power is a unit of power either way surely?


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## Kingfisher101 (10 Jun 2022)

Mo1959 said:


> If they are overpaying, they will get it back. A unit of power is a unit of power either way surely?



Yes they will get it back eventually but I would prefer the extra in my account not the energy providers.


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## midlife (10 Jun 2022)

rogerzilla said:


> They charge you more for paying that way, though.



yep, happy with that as money is in my bank and not theirs. Horses for courses as they say.


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## Ming the Merciless (10 Jun 2022)

kingrollo said:


> Mine has go from £80pm - to £225 a month



Are you buying your firewood from Fortnum & Mason?


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## Milzy (10 Jun 2022)

I fixed for 2 years. I’ve not been on my gaming PC & still paying £50 a month more.


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## ColinJ (10 Jun 2022)

I was paying £1,000 p.a. to British Gas. For the same usage, that would now become £1,850, but might rise to as much as £2,800. BG has generously decided to offer me a fixed price of £2,507...


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## oldwheels (10 Jun 2022)

Kingfisher101 said:


> Yes they will get it back eventually but I would prefer the extra in my account not the energy providers.



Somebody I knew who used to work for the old Hydro Board deliberately overpaid and used it as a kind of savings scheme. Just before Christmas she got all the overpayment back to pay for the expenses at Christmas and New Year.


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## iluvmybike (16 Jun 2022)

I have just put our monthly meter readings in to our energy supplier - our charges were about £85 and when I looked our account was in credit by £326! The reason for this is that they hiked our monthly DD for dual fuel in March from £95 to £209.00 as our fixed deal expired. So basically they have totally over estimated our usage in the guise of 'due to the price cap rise'. We haven't altered our normal behaviours or anything. Fortunately, they make it easy to change the DD and also to request some of our cash back. So it is worthwhile keeping a check on what you are actually spending compared to what they think they should be charging - even allowing for it ironing out the fall and rise as the seasons change...


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## Scaleyback (16 Jun 2022)

iluvmybike said:


> I have just put our monthly meter readings in to our energy supplier - our charges were about £85 and when I looked our account was in credit by £326! The reason for this is that they hiked our monthly DD for dual fuel in March from £95 to £209.00 as our fixed deal expired. So basically they have totally over estimated our usage in the guise of 'due to the price cap rise'. We haven't altered our normal behaviours or anything. Fortunately, they make it easy to change the DD and also to request some of our cash back. So it is worthwhile keeping a check on what you are actually spending compared to what they think they should be charging - even allowing for it ironing out the fall and rise as the seasons change...



You do know don't you that energy companies estimate your annual usage (based on previous history) then divide that by 12. What they don't want is you falling into massive overdraft once winter arrives.


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## PaulSB (16 Jun 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> You do know don't you that energy companies estimate your annual usage (based on previous history) then divide that by 12. What they don't want is you falling into massive overdraft once winter arrives.



Exactly.


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## Ming the Merciless (16 Jun 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> You do know don't you that energy companies estimate your annual usage (based on previous history) then divide that by 12. What they don't want is you falling into massive overdraft once winter arrives.



In which case it can go up for 6 months and back down for 6 months.


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## Ming the Merciless (16 Jun 2022)

ColinJ said:


> I was paying £1,000 p.a. to British Gas.



That’s a lot I pay less than that a year for both gas and electric at the new rates.


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## MrGrumpy (16 Jun 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> That’s a lot I pay less than that a year for both gas and electric at the new rates.



Horses for courses depends on the size of house ! Or you have a shed load of solar and batteries !


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## ColinJ (16 Jun 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> That’s a lot I pay less than that a year for both gas and electric at the new rates.



I live in an old house that is badly insulated and in the winter average 23+ hours a day indoors! 

In the summer it is probably more like 22 hours a day.


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## Pat "5mph" (16 Jun 2022)

ColinJ said:


> I live in an old house that is badly insulated and in the winter average 23+ hours a day indoors!
> 
> In the summer it is probably more like 22 hours a day.


Is lockdown still on??


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## ColinJ (16 Jun 2022)

Pat 5mph said:


> Is lockdown still on??



Ha ha! 

No, it is how I have lived for a long time now. When people were complaining about lockdown it made me realise that my lifestyle isn't quite '_normal_' because it hardly made any difference to me...


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## jowwy (22 Jun 2022)

Not posted here in a while and will probably dissappear again after this post

one of the thing i have done to reduce electrical costs is a gas grill and pizza oven outside for cooking and using a solar generator linked to a 200w solar panel in my office........and for those who said TVs cant be run from solar, its been working brilliantly for the past 5mths

Office TV uses as little as 40watts/h
SkyQ box uses 10watts/h
Laptop 40watts/h...but only when it needs recharging
Spare PC screen 10watts/h....

My last 3 days of energy comsumption since aquiring the pizza oven is 5.5kwh sunday, 5kwh monday and 4kwh yesterday. With electrical costs rising the way they are, they will all pay themselves back in no time.


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## MrGrumpy (22 Jun 2022)

I like pizza but not sure I could eat every day  ! However we are thinking of buying an Ooni !


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## Asa Post (22 Jun 2022)

Got my first gas bill from EDF today. I was transferred to them in January after my previous supplier went bust. 
EDF only bill every 6 months, and I'm used to monthly bills, so I haven't known where I stand until now. 
They are going to increase my DD from £51 to £62 per month. It's a smaller increase than I expected.


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## jowwy (22 Jun 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> I like pizza but not sure I could eat every day  ! However we are thinking of buying an Ooni !



I cooked lasagne and garlic ciabatta bread in it on monday, not just for pizza……today its salmon with fresh garlic and basil butter ( basil and garlic home grown) with a mixed leaf salad ( also homegrown)


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## presta (22 Jun 2022)

ColinJ said:


> Ha ha!
> 
> No, it is how I have lived for a long time now. When people were complaining about lockdown it made me realise that my lifestyle isn't quite '_normal_' because it hardly made any difference to me...


Same here. I live alone, and the only reason I go out is for food & exercise, so lockdown wasn't any different to normal. All the complaints about how hard lockdown was fell on deaf ears TBH.


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## Mo1959 (22 Jun 2022)

ColinJ said:


> Ha ha!
> 
> No, it is how I have lived for a long time now. When people were complaining about lockdown it made me realise that my lifestyle isn't quite '_normal_' because it hardly made any difference to me...





presta said:


> Same here. I live alone, and the only reason I go out is for food & exercise, so lockdown wasn't any different to normal. All the complaints about how hard lockdown was fell on deaf ears TBH.


Yet another living alone who it made virtually zero difference to, my lifestyle being an anti social loner!


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## gzoom (22 Jun 2022)

jowwy said:


> My last 3 days of energy comsumption since aquiring the pizza oven is 5.5kwh sunday, 5kwh monday and 4kwh yesterday. With electrical costs rising the way they are, they will all pay themselves back in no time.


This is our current electricity consumption for the house this month....negative 9kWh. Looking at the weather report this month should see us hit net 0 grid electricity.....still have to pay the 49p/day standing charge though


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## PaulSB (23 Jun 2022)

gzoom said:


> This is our current electricity consumption for the house this month....negative 9kWh. Looking at the weather report this month should see us hit net 0 grid electricity.....still have to pay the 49p/day standing charge though
> 
> View attachment 650110



How many months of the year do you enjoy this position?


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## jowwy (23 Jun 2022)

gzoom said:


> This is our current electricity consumption for the house this month....negative 9kWh. Looking at the weather report this month should see us hit net 0 grid electricity.....still have to pay the 49p/day standing charge though
> 
> View attachment 650110



I suppose the standard charge is just like paying insurance for you though, against not getting as much solar uptake as you require down the line.

i mean some of us pay for health insurance or pet insurance , just in case we have an health issues or pet issues, rather than paying when it happens, the standard charge for electric is just like that


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## Phaeton (23 Jun 2022)

jowwy said:


> i mean we all pay car insurance, just in case we have an accident,


I don't, I only pay t because it's the law


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## Alex321 (23 Jun 2022)

jowwy said:


> I suppose the standard charge is just like paying insurance for you though, against not getting as much solar uptake as you require down the line.
> 
> i mean some of us pay for health insurance or pet insurance , just in case we have an health issues or pet issues, rather than paying when it happens, the standard charge for electric is just like that



The standing charge for Electricity or Gas is nothing remotely similar to insurance.

It is a charge you pay for the service of being connected to the grid.


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## MrGrumpy (23 Jun 2022)

Alex321 said:


> The standing charge for Electricity or Gas is nothing remotely similar to insurance.
> 
> It is a charge you pay for the service of being connected to the grid.



It’s also went up to pay for it the failure of the companies that have collapsed in this “competitive” energy market


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## jowwy (23 Jun 2022)

Alex321 said:


> The standing charge for Electricity or Gas is nothing remotely similar to insurance.
> 
> It is a charge you pay for the service of being connected to the grid.



it is.......but its ok if you dont agree with me, im not hear to argue with people who may or may not have a different opinion to myself.

of you want to argue the symantics, go and do it with someone else.


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## jowwy (23 Jun 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> It’s also went up to pay for it the failure of the companies that have collapsed in this “competitive” energy market



the same as insurance goes up when people make spurious claims and adds costs to the industry....again its symantics, we dont need insurances and in a way we dont need standing charges either, could all just be on the cost per unit instead


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## mistyoptic (23 Jun 2022)

jowwy said:


> the same as insurance goes up when people make spurious claims and adds costs to the industry....again its symantics, we dont need insurances and in a way we dont need standing charges either, could all just be on the cost per unit instead


It's not insurance. A better comparison would be line rental for your telephone. you're paying to be connected to the system. Nothing to do with semantics


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## jowwy (23 Jun 2022)

mistyoptic said:


> It's not insurance. A better comparison would be line rental for your telephone. you're paying to be connected to the system. Nothing to do with semantics



in a way it is....hes paying a standing charge to be connected to the grid, even though he doesnt always need it, so in a way insuring himself against solar losses in the future, by using grid electric........

you are aware you no longer need to pay for line rental on telephone lines, unless you actually use the landline, then you need to pay


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## mjr (23 Jun 2022)

mistyoptic said:


> It's not insurance. A better comparison would be line rental for your telephone. you're paying to be connected to the system. Nothing to do with semantics


It's not because it's not related to the cost of maintaining that connection. It hasn't become twice as expensive to be connected since last year. We are paying more to insure against private suppliers failing. A direct illustration of a cost of speculative investments in what's really a monopoly.


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## jowwy (23 Jun 2022)

the definition of insurance







its something that provides protection of a possible eventuality happening.....you pay pet insurnace in case your pet becomes ill, lets say.

Paying to be connected to the grid, but not using the grid, is in a way protecting you against losses in solar, wind or hydro..if your getting energy in any of those ways. if you dont pay the standard connection charge, then you get no connection and therefore no protection against loss of energy.


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## Phaeton (23 Jun 2022)

jowwy said:


> you are aware you no longer need to pay for line rental on telephone lines, unless you actually use the landline, then you need to pay



Try getting broadband in most of the country without line rental, most now have got around Ofcom's ruling by changing the price structure like we told them they would.


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## jowwy (23 Jun 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Try getting broadband in most of the country without line rental, most now have got around Ofcom's ruling by changing the price structure like we told them they would.



you can get broadband with BT without paying line rental.......cause i do, i removed the landline and line rental charges and my broadband costs stay exactly the same.....it hasnt gone up to replace the cost of not having to pay line rental. if it was part of the braodband charges, it would mean you was paying twice for the line rental


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## Phaeton (23 Jun 2022)

jowwy said:


> the definition of insurance
> 
> View attachment 650143
> 
> ...



For somebody who doesn't want to argue you're putting on a good show


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## fossyant (23 Jun 2022)

We're using the oven less, and the air fryer more. Although, at the caravan, we've been careful with gas use if we need a little heat as there are severe shortages of gas bottles, and our van runs on four big propane bottles which you change two at a time (£85 each) but can only buy 1 as we are limited.


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## Phaeton (23 Jun 2022)

jowwy said:


> you can get broadband with BT without paying line rental.......cause i do



Okay if you say so, you know best, but if you want to check your homework, it's just a pricing exercise they just rename what they charge you, you can have, line rental for £16.99 with broadband for £9.99 total £26.98 or you can have broadband with no line rental for £26.98 now this is really semantics, as Openreach still get their cut.


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## jowwy (23 Jun 2022)

Phaeton said:


> For somebody who doesn't want to argue you're putting on a good show



and for the last 5 months of me not posting on here, lots of people have been arguing who state they never were and it was all my fault.......go figure


----------



## jowwy (23 Jun 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Okay if you say so, you know best, but if you want to check your homework, it's just a pricing exercise they just rename what they charge you, you can have, line rental for £16.99 with broadband for £9.99 total £26.98 or you can have broadband with no line rental for £26.98 now this is really semantics, as Openreach still get their cut.



no...i pay £35 for broadband, or i can pay £55 that includes line rental and phone connection. i chose the £35 option...therefore no line rental and phone connection.....


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## jowwy (23 Jun 2022)

fossyant said:


> We're using the oven less, and the air fryer more. Although, at the caravan, we've been careful with gas use if we need a little heat as there are severe shortages of gas bottles, and our van runs on four big propane bottles which you change two at a time (£85 each) but can only buy 1 as we are limited.



it does make you think about the cost of things fossy.......im using more of the outdoor cooking options at the house and not using the oven and hob as much indoors.


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## icowden (23 Jun 2022)

jowwy said:


> you are aware you no longer need to pay for line rental on telephone lines, unless you actually use the landline, then you need to pay


Nope. You pay for line rental if you want a telephone line regardless of whether you choose to use it.


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## jowwy (23 Jun 2022)

icowden said:


> Nope. You pay for line rental if you want a telephone line regardless of whether you choose to use it.



you obviously didnt read the posts above....


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## icowden (23 Jun 2022)

jowwy said:


> you obviously didnt read the posts above....



I did, but that has nothing to do with your statement which was incorrect. If I write 5 posts about fish , four of which are accurate but one of which is that fish are trees, it doesn't mean that that post is also accurate.

It also doesn't make your assertions that the fixed charge to remain connected to the grid is a form of insurance. It is a payment for a service that the person wants to pay for, not hedging a bet.


----------



## jowwy (23 Jun 2022)

icowden said:


> I did, but that has nothing to do with your statement which was incorrect. If I write 5 posts about fish , four of which are accurate but one of which is that fish are trees, it doesn't mean that that post is also accurate.
> 
> *It also doesn't make your assertions that the fixed charge to remain connected to the grid is a form of insurance. It is a payment for a service that the person wants to pay for, not hedging a bet.*



right - in the past you had to pay line rental if you wanted broadband, but not a phone.....its no longer the case. you dont have to pay for landline rental, just to recieve broadband. casing point

Broadband £35
Line rental £14.99
Various phone charges £9.99

i chose to remove the line rental and various phone charges and only pay £35 for broadband. If as phaeton states the line rental charge is within the braodband payment, then BT would have been charging me twice for line rental.........which wasnt allowed.

I hope that ends the confusion over the 4 various posts that you state was incorrect.

as for the point i highlighted, i know people who stay connected to the grid as an insurance against energy losses, they dont need to be connected, as they havent use grid power for some years....but they still pay the charge, just in case of that one time they need ( thats called insurance)....its like carrying a coat in the summer, just in case it rains, but the forecast tells you it wont happen. its a form of insurance, its protecting you against an event happening.

The service charge has risen due to power companies insuring against losses of other power suppliers and passing the charges onto their customers........it didnt need to happen, but it did.


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## Phaeton (23 Jun 2022)

jowwy said:


> right - in the past you had to pay line rental if you wanted broadband, but not a phone.....its no longer the case. you dont have to pay for landline rental, just to recieve broadband. casing point
> 
> Broadband £35
> Line rental £14.99
> ...



Sorry but you are incorrect & have been fooled by BT's clever marketing department, you can paint stripes on a Donkey & call it a Zebra but it's still a Donkey underneath. BT have no physical way of getting the broadband to your home without Openreach for which they have to pay line rental, they just don't provide you with a phone number. 

The reason why this was not possible before was the whole BT system was designed around the phone number premises link, not circuit number premises link.


----------



## jowwy (23 Jun 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Sorry but you are incorrect & have been fooled by BT's clever marketing department, you can paint stripes on a Donkey & call it a Zebra but it's still a Donkey underneath. BT have no physical way of getting the broadband to your home without Openreach for which they have to pay line rental, they just don't provide you with a phone number.
> 
> The reason why this was not possible before was the whole BT system was designed around the phone number premises link, not circuit number premises link.



so why hasnt my broadband charged increased after removing the line rental???


----------



## icowden (23 Jun 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Sorry but you are incorrect & have been fooled by BT's clever marketing department, you can paint stripes on a Donkey & call it a Zebra but it's still a Donkey underneath. BT have no physical way of getting the broadband to your home without Openreach for which they have to pay line rental, they just don't provide you with a phone number.
> 
> The reason why this was not possible before was the whole BT system was designed around the phone number premises link, not circuit number premises link.



And this is true of other providers such as Sky, Virgin etc. They all use openreach infrastructure to get the broadband to your house.


----------



## icowden (23 Jun 2022)

jowwy said:


> so why hasnt my broadband charged increased after removing the line rental???


Wrong question. Why hasn't your broadband charge *decreased *after removing the line rental. If you aren't paying for it, then you should be paying less?
Add to that the move to get rid of the copper line in favour of VOIP and there is no need for "line rental" at all, as voice calls become part of the broadband.


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## Alex321 (23 Jun 2022)

jowwy said:


> it is.......but its ok if you dont agree with me, im not hear to argue with people who may or may not have a different opinion to myself.
> 
> of you want to argue the symantics, go and do it with someone else.



It isn't semantics at all. It is a completely different concept.

Insurance, you are paying a premium to cover yourself against something you hope never happens. Effectively making a bet you hope to lose.

Standing charge for a service, you are paying for something you get (the connection to the grid). You can reasonably argue that it could all be subsumed into the unit charge, and so it is technically unnecessary but that still doesn't make it a payment for something you hope doesn't happen.


----------



## Alex321 (23 Jun 2022)

jowwy said:


> the definition of insurance
> 
> View attachment 650143
> 
> ...



Ok, I see where your misunderstanding lies.

Firstly, hardly any home production systems will actually supply your property without a grid connection. If the street gets a power cut, so do you, even if your solar is generating 10Kw.

Secondly, we almost all export suplus electricity back to the grid, for which we still need that connection paid for by the standing charge.


----------



## jowwy (23 Jun 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Firstly, hardly any home production systems will actually supply your property without a grid connection. If the street gets a power cut, so do you, even if your solar is generating 10Kw.



not if you have battery storage as part of the solar system, it can then switch to battery supply via a smart controller..........


----------



## jowwy (23 Jun 2022)

icowden said:


> And this is true of other providers such as Sky, Virgin etc. They all use openreach infrastructure to get the broadband to your house.



virgin doesnt....fibre to the door via virgin


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (23 Jun 2022)

jowwy said:


> virgin doesnt....fibre to the door via virgin



True
but they still use the same cabinets as OpenReach - so if teh cab looses power all the lines go
they probably use some common connections as well - but I'm not up to date with that


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## Phaeton (23 Jun 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> True
> but they still use the same cabinets as OpenReach - so if teh cab looses power all the lines go
> they probably use some common connections as well - but I'm not up to date with that



This will depend if they are on their own network or piggybacking, if on their own network @jowwy is correct it's fibre to the premises but the percentage of UK homes with direct fibre is very low.

@jowwy you are still incorrect but unlike yourself I am not going to argue the point with somebody who does not want to learn/listen even when being provided with the facts from somebody who is actively involved in the industry.


----------



## jowwy (23 Jun 2022)

Phaeton said:


> This will depend if they are on their own network or piggybacking, if on their own network @jowwy is correct it's fibre to the premises but the percentage of UK homes with direct fibre is very low.
> 
> @jowwy you are still incorrect but unlike yourself I am not going to argue the point with somebody who does not want to learn/listen even when being provided with the facts from somebody who is actively involved in the industry.



yet you've been arguing for the past how many posts, even though your not arguing.......strange that.

Back to the solar @Alex321 my current home office runs purely on solar with no grid connection, solar direct to solar generator which strores the power for me to use.......but i can plug into the grid if required via a plug if i dont produce enough solar, but that hasnt happened for a while


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## Alex321 (23 Jun 2022)

jowwy said:


> yet you've been arguing for the past how many posts, even though your not arguing.......strange that.
> 
> Back to the solar @Alex321 my current home office runs purely on solar with no grid connection, solar direct to solar generator which strores the power for me to use.......but i can plug into the grid if required via a plug if i dont produce enough solar, but that hasnt happened for a while



Yours is unusual, even when you have a battery. Most require a permanent connection - I'm not sure why.
[EDIT] I think yours works without connection because it is a separate stand alone system, not your main household supply.
[/EDIT]

At the moment, we are still waiting for our battery, so we are using electricity from the grid overnight anyhow 

TBH, I'm getting a bit pee'd off about how long it is taking for that. The main system was installed in February and they have kept putting back the date they are due to receive the shipment of batteries (we don't pay for the battery until it is installed, so there is no benefit to them in delaying).


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## jowwy (23 Jun 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Yours is unusual, even when you have a battery. Most require a permanent connection - I'm not sure why.
> [EDIT] I think yours works without connection because it is a separate stand alone system, not your main household supply.
> [/EDIT]
> 
> ...



but you do agree ( as i posted the system above) that there options out there now that dont require you to be grid tied, therfore you can still have power during a blackout.......i am a member of a solar forum and some of the ways they have come up with systems electronics to run houses ( mostly america and canada) is pretty smart. even building their own apps and coding systems to allow their solar to swutch to battery and back in case of blackouts from the grid.....they get the best of all worlds that way, so they get paid for exporting, get free power from the sun ( after paying for the system install) and have backup options if theres no grid power/blackout. lots of clever people out there


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## Alex321 (23 Jun 2022)

jowwy said:


> but you do agree ( as i posted the system above) that there options out there now that dont require you to be grid tied, therfore you can still have power during a blackout.......i am a member of a solar forum and some of the ways they have come up with systems electronics to run houses ( mostly america and canada) is pretty smart. even building their own apps and coding systems to allow their solar to swutch to battery and back in case of blackouts from the grid.....they get the best of all worlds that way, so they get paid for exporting, get free power from the sun ( after paying for the system install) and have backup options if theres no grid power/blackout. lots of clever people out there



Yes, there are ways in which you can. As I said, they are unusual to have installed as your main household power source in this country, but I agree you can get them.


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## mjr (23 Jun 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Sorry but you are incorrect & have been fooled by BT's clever marketing department, you can paint stripes on a Donkey & call it a Zebra but it's still a Donkey underneath.


And BT really are Donkeys. The loyalty of some to the unjust privatised monopoly is disappointing and means it is still nearly a monopoly (34% market share, while I think 40% is one current legal definition). The surviving privatised former energy monopolies (British Gas and SSE: all others have been bought out) would have loved that sort of position.



jowwy said:


> so why hasnt my broadband charged increased after removing the line rental???


Maybe you were overpaying before.



Alex321 said:


> Yours is unusual, even when you have a battery. Most require a permanent connection - I'm not sure why.


Cheaper systems synchronise to the grid frequency.


----------



## MrGrumpy (23 Jun 2022)

Right the standing charge from my understanding is to cover meter costs, whatever that maybe ? Now you can argue to the cows come home whether that’s fair or not . The cost has gone up and that’s partly due to the failure of these fake energy companies ( that’s how I see them ) . So to recoup those losses we are all paying more in standing charges. That’s on record I believe . It’s not insurance , compare all you like but it’s not. So I think it’s a racket ? In some ways I do , but I also feel the same for the cost of energy . A price variance is evident for all over the UK.


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## mjr (23 Jun 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Right the standing charge from my understanding is to cover meter costs, whatever that maybe ? Now you can argue to the cows come home whether that’s fair or not . The cost has gone up and that’s partly due to the failure of these fake energy companies ( that’s how I see them ) .


How does the failure of, say, Bulb, make my non-Bulb meter cost more to maintain? 

It is more insurance than connection cost now.


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## mjr (23 Jun 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I don't, I only pay t because it's the law


So you didn't have insurance before 2019, right?


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## Alex321 (23 Jun 2022)

mjr said:


> So you didn't have insurance before 2019, right?



?????

Motor insurance has been legally required for any car on the road for a LONG time before 2019 - since 1930 in fact.


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## mjr (23 Jun 2022)

Alex321 said:


> ?????
> 
> Motor insurance has been legally required for any car on the road for a LONG time before 2019 - since 1930 in fact.


Until 2019, owner-drivers still had the option of depositing £500k with the Accountant General of the Supreme Court instead.


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## Phaeton (23 Jun 2022)

mjr said:


> Until 2019, owner-drivers still had the option of depositing £500k with the Accountant General of the Supreme Court instead.



I wasn't ware this had been withdrawn, I was under the impression it was still a viable option, but maybe unlike yourself I do not have a spare £500K down the side of the sofa & strangely enough a friend who has several multiple of £500K available to do this chooses not to.


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## Alex321 (23 Jun 2022)

mjr said:


> Until 2019, owner-drivers still had the option of depositing £500k with the Accountant General of the Supreme Court instead.



Good point. I'd forgotten about that.


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## MrGrumpy (23 Jun 2022)

mjr said:


> How does the failure of, say, Bulb, make my non-Bulb meter cost more to maintain?
> 
> It is more insurance than connection cost now.



We the consumer are paying for the failure of these energy companies, through the standing charge . They have all doubled it or more ??!! The Gov/Ofgem have passed that cost onto us. As I’ve said a fake energy market filled with companies betting on the price of energy . It’s all come crumbling down ! 

Again my understanding?


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## icowden (23 Jun 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> We the consumer are paying for the failure of these energy companies, through the standing charge . They have all doubled it or more ??!! The Gov/Ofgem have passed that cost onto us. As I’ve said a fake energy market filled with companies betting on the price of energy . It’s all come crumbling down !


Yes, because of the Government who capped wholesale prices such that they forced companies into administration.


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## mistyoptic (23 Jun 2022)

icowden said:


> Yes, because of the Government who capped wholesale prices such that they forced companies into administration.


And if they hadn’t capped the price you could be charged, you’d be paying more for your energy, surely?


----------



## gzoom (23 Jun 2022)

PaulSB said:


> How many months of the year do you enjoy this position?



For June - July - August, its pretty easy to reach 0 grid electricity usage for us, the biggest 'drain' is our EV, everything else in the house can easily be covered by solar. 

The difference this year versus last, is that I've started to actually use our local Tesla Supercharger to recharge the car versus using home electricity. We have 'free for life' charging/usage of Tesla charges bundled in with the car as we bought it back in 2016 when Tesla was predicted to go bankrupt, so it was essentially a teaser to attract customers. When electricity was cheap (6p per kWh at one stage in 2015 I remember) it didn't matter, but domestic electricity rate now means the refuel cost of our EV is approaching 10p/mile which means a 30 minute stop to recharge for 'free' once/twice a week timed with doing some work/email stuff now makes sense. 

Using the eBike is obviously another easy way to reduce transport costs too.


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## PaulSB (23 Jun 2022)

@gzoom thank you, that's interesting to read.


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## fossyant (23 Jun 2022)

gzoom said:


> For June - July - August, its pretty easy to reach 0 grid electricity usage for us, the biggest 'drain' is our EV, everything else in the house can easily be covered by solar.
> 
> The difference this year versus last, is that I've started to actually use our local Tesla Supercharger to recharge the car versus using home electricity. We have 'free for life' charging/usage of Tesla charges bundled in with the car as we bought it back in 2016 when Tesla was predicted to go bankrupt, so it was essentially a teaser to attract customers. When electricity was cheap (6p per kWh at one stage in 2015 I remember) it didn't matter, but domestic electricity rate now means the refuel cost of our EV is approaching 10p/mile which means a 30 minute stop to recharge for 'free' once/twice a week timed with doing some work/email stuff now makes sense.
> 
> ...



So how much did the leccy stuff cost to fit ? For it to work ?

There will be no e-bikes for me in this house. OLD SKOOL programming, and my mates have this, despite some major injuries we have revovered from...


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## Alex321 (24 Jun 2022)

fossyant said:


> So how much did the leccy stuff cost to fit ? For it to work ?


Ours, for a 10.4Kw system, with a 16KwH battery will be a total of around £20,000 when the battery finally arrives.

Projections are that we will be generating around 9000 KwH per year, and last year we used less than 3000 (it was fitted mid-February, and we have generated 4,900 so far, so the projections if anything look pessimistic). There will still be periods in the winter when we can't quite generate enough to cover overnight use, but based on this year, I would expect April - October at least to be pretty well entirely self-generated, and in a good year March & November may be as well.


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## PaulSB (24 Jun 2022)

@Alex321 I'm currently paying 19.2 per KwH which at 9000 pa would mean your £20000 will take at least 11½ years to breakeven.

9000 x 19.2 = £1728pa
£20000 / £1728 = 11.5 years

Presumably you sell spare capacity to the grid and this would be at less than 19.2? I presume the price would vary to mirror the energy market? Then there are maintenance costs.

At what point does the investment breakeven?


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## PaulSB (24 Jun 2022)

Got the monthly email from British Gas showing my statement is available online though I'm not sure why BG bothers. I've paid all the bills on time! I'm a simple man and will keep on reading the meters!



22nd Jun 2022£374.53
Download5th Jun 2022£331.52Bill cancelled & replaced9th May 2022£43.01Bill cancelled & replaced6th May 2022£43.01Bill cancelled & replaced11th Apr 2022£43.01Bill cancelled & replaced30th Mar 2022£520.65
Download28th Mar 2022£76.91
Download22nd Dec 2021£76.91Bill cancelled & replaced9th Dec 2021£88.02Not ready


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## jowwy (24 Jun 2022)

PaulSB said:


> @Alex321 I'm currently paying 19.2 per KwH which at 9000 pa would mean your £20000 will take at least 11½ years to breakeven.
> 
> 9000 x 19.2 = £1728pa
> £20000 / £1728 = 11.5 years
> ...



for people on a default tarif paying 29.7p/kwh would have a lower payback time to breakeven. Also not everyone uses 9000kwh pa.......

So far since january i have averaged 180kwh per month if we times that by 12 = 2160kwh for the year........but this month so far i have used 120kwh and yesterday only used 4kwh for the day. So not everyone would need such a big system that @Alex321 is using and paid for.

The reason for my low usage...i have no kids, its just me and the Mrs, i cook a lot outdoors on the gas grill and now pizza oven, my office runs on solar for 7hrs...and during the day its only the Mrs downstairs using a very low wattage Tv and Skyq box. All sockets not being used are switched off just leaving the Fridge freezer, small freezer and broadband hub using power........

Yes i it may be very rare that such low power uses are that common, but as i sit and type here now, im using full solar and not an ounce of energy from the grid.


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## Alex321 (24 Jun 2022)

PaulSB said:


> @Alex321 I'm currently paying 19.2 per KwH which at 9000 pa would mean your £20000 will take at least 11½ years to breakeven.
> 
> 9000 x 19.2 = £1728pa
> £20000 / £1728 = 11.5 years
> ...



Yes, we will be selling spare capacity back to the grid. We will be going onto the Octopus Agile tariff when we get the battery, and the payments for that will usually be more than 19.2p - we will of course be able to send most of our outgoing power between 4pm and 7pm, when it is the highest price.
https://www.energy-stats.uk/octopus-agile-outgoing-export-southern-england/

I'm expecting the payback time to be of the order of 8-9 years, maybe less if prices go up even further.

They also reckon that it adds between a third and half the cost to the value of the house.


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## jowwy (24 Jun 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Yes, we will be selling spare capacity back to the grid. We will be going onto the Octopus Agile tariff when we get the battery, and the payments for that will usually be more than 19.2p - we will of course be able to send most of our outgoing power between 4pm and 7pm, when it is the highest price.
> https://www.energy-stats.uk/octopus-agile-outgoing-export-southern-england/
> 
> I'm expecting the payback time to be of the order of 8-9 years, maybe less if prices go up even further.
> ...



are we to assume that you have paid for the system outright and not taken loans or additional mortgage costs to purchase the system???


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## Alex321 (24 Jun 2022)

jowwy said:


> for people on a default tarif paying 29.7p/kwh would have a lower payback time to breakeven. Also not everyone uses 9000kwh pa.......
> 
> So far since january i have averaged 180kwh per month if we times that by 12 = 2160kwh for the year........but this month so far i have used 120kwh and yesterday only used 4kwh for the day. So not everyone would need such a big system that @Alex321 is using and paid for.
> 
> ...



We don't use 9000 KwH per year - currently a little under 3000. 

But at the moment, the heating is gas powered, and we'd like to switch that over to electric at some point, plus allow for the possibility of getting an EV at some point, so we wanted the biggest system that would fit on our roof, since we have the money to pay for it now.


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## Alex321 (24 Jun 2022)

jowwy said:


> are we to assume that you have paid for the system outright and not taken loans or additional mortgage costs to purchase the system???



Yes. We paid off our mortgage on the last house about 8 years before we moved (2 years ago) - and the move was downsizing, although to a similar priced house.

No mortgage, no kids at home, me on a good salary and my wife on a good pension, all means we have a fair amount of spare cash. We also haven't taken a foreign holiday since 2019, though we don't usually go mad on those.


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## jowwy (24 Jun 2022)

Alex321 said:


> We don't use 9000 KwH per year - currently a little under 3000.
> 
> But at the moment, the heating is gas powered, and we'd like to switch that over to electric at some point, plus allow for the possibility of getting an EV at some point, so we wanted the biggest system that would fit on our roof, since we have the money to pay for it now.



so wouldnt payback be a lot longer on 3000kwh a year.......


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## Alex321 (24 Jun 2022)

jowwy said:


> so wouldnt payback be a lot longer on 3000kwh a year.......



Well the rate is more than the 19.2p @PaulSB was suggesting, and I was taking into account the payments we expect to get for the surplus.

My own calculations have suggested 8-9 years, assuming import rates stay at around 29p and we export at 20p average (both are likely to be more over that period rather than less).


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## jowwy (24 Jun 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Well the rate is more than the 19.2p @PaulSB was suggesting, and I was taking into account the payments we expect to get for the surplus.
> 
> My own calculations have suggested 8-9 years, assuming import rates stay at around 29p and we export at 20p average (both are likely to be more over that period rather than less).



i draw low power from the grid like yourself....but im not getting such a big system as yourself in hopefully september.


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## gbb (3 Jul 2022)

So looking back, our combined bills pre price rises were IRO £110 to £150 a month (summer / winter).
First bill post rises £160, next bill £208 that was a spring bill, very little heating used (we dont much anyway ) and we dont use a tumble drier except in exceptional circumstances. 
Steps need to be taken so we switched to boiler on for timed periods only (we used to leave it on all the time) and switched to eco modes on the washer and dishwasher.
This bill just in ... £130.

Thats not much effort for a big saving 

I suspect our winter bills will now be IRO £180 maybe, notwithstanding any more incoming price rises
Theres no doubt we will have become a bit more conscious of what we're doing and its cost.
Environment benefits too, if we're all doing the same, our environmental impact must be better.


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## PaulSB (1 Aug 2022)

Here we go again. British Gas. The most useless feckin' company on the planet. June and July my bills were low. Excellent news. Just noticed this morning the July bill didn't include electricity. Checked June. No electricity charges. Every bill since December 9th 2021 has been incorrect and cancelled and reissued by British Gas for exactly the same amount. This time they forgot the electric!!!!!!!!! 

Unbelievable


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## fossyant (1 Aug 2022)

PaulSB said:


> Here we go again. British Gas. The most useless feckin' company on the planet. June and July my bills were low. Excellent news. Just noticed this morning the July bill didn't include electricity. Checked June. No electricity charges. Every bill since December 9th 2021 has been incorrect and cancelled and reissued by British Gas for exactly the same amount. This time they forgot the electric!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Unbelievable



Smart Meter ? Can you opt to send in monthly readings ?


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## jowwy (1 Aug 2022)

PaulSB said:


> Here we go again. British Gas. The most useless feckin' company on the planet. June and July my bills were low. Excellent news. Just noticed this morning the July bill didn't include electricity. Checked June. No electricity charges. Every bill since December 9th 2021 has been incorrect and cancelled and reissued by British Gas for exactly the same amount. This time they forgot the electric!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Unbelievable



they are British Gas, maybe they forgot they did electric too lol


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## Alex321 (1 Aug 2022)

jowwy said:


> they are British Gas, maybe they forgot they did electric too lol



We are going to switch to Octopus, but are currently with BG for both electricity and gas.

Smart meters for both, they take the smart reading for the gas, but use estimated readings for electricity (and for some reason estimated we would have used more in the period than the same period last year, even though we were actually WAY less due to the solar).

They know we have a smart meter for the leccy as well, because when we tried to enter our own reading, it was more difficult as you aren't expected to enter your own readings when it is a smart meter!


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## fossyant (1 Aug 2022)

@PaulSB - I'd recommend taking your own readings and pop it in a spreadsheet to work out cost - it's all very straight forward to do - Scottish Power, but no Smart Meter - I just log in once a month and give them the reading. This then generates the bill. I've got a spreadsheet logging it all, and check it to the bill.

This may just save you the shock when the electric bill is calculated.


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## PaulSB (1 Aug 2022)

fossyant said:


> Smart Meter ? Can you opt to send in monthly readings ?



We have smart meters but they have never worked. Installed 12 months ago. We don't get any readings on the little home display and nothing is transmitted to the supplier. Apparently this is due to a longstanding issue with the communication network locally. The vast majority of households in our area have non-functioning smart meters.

The last time I complained, January, I was told engineers expected to fix the problem in three weeks.

Thanks for the suggestions re submitting readings and a spreadsheet. This is something I've done for many years.

When I complained this morning I was told it was due to "inaccurate or missing data." Made my blood boil so I demanded £50 compensation and got it. I got £50 in June as well for a different billing complaint!


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## ColinJ (1 Aug 2022)

PaulSB said:


> We have smart meters but they have never worked. Installed 12 months ago. We don't get any readings on the little home display and nothing is transmitted to the supplier. Apparently this is due to a longstanding issue with the communication network locally. The vast majority of households in our area have non-functioning smart meters.



I have smart meters. Both stopped working. After 2 attempts, BG got the electricity meter sending its readings through again, but then gave up on the gas meter! I am back to doing my own gas meter readings and uploading them manually to my BG account.


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## jowwy (2 Aug 2022)

Just had this months gas bill……£27.23.
electric will be around £65…….so thats £92, e-on wanted me to pay a direct debit of £185 a month, if i did that since april i would now be nearly £400 in credit.


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## rualexander (2 Aug 2022)

jowwy said:


> Just had this months gas bill……£27.23.
> electric will be around £65…….so thats £92, e-on wanted me to pay a direct debit of £185 a month, if i did that since april i would now be nearly £400 in credit.



Which might get you through a couple of months this winter, if you're lucky 😬


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## PaulSB (3 Aug 2022)

We already have a very old multi-fuel burner in our back room which does an excellent job of keeping the house warm during winter days. It doesn't though give enough heat for the front room to be comfortable of an evening.

As it seems gas prices will remain high till 2024 we're considering putting a small wood burner in the living room. An open fire is very cosy but also very inefficient.

I have a good supply of free logs so a bit of extra foraging for wood could mean we don't need to use the CH most of the time.


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## MrGrumpy (3 Aug 2022)

jowwy said:


> Just had this months gas bill……£27.23.
> electric will be around £65…….so thats £92, e-on wanted me to pay a direct debit of £185 a month, if i did that since april i would now be nearly £400 in credit.



I’m not much more right now ! Come winter it’s a different story !


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## jowwy (3 Aug 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> I’m not much more right now ! Come winter it’s a different story !



ours will get a bit higher come winter, but not a lot……..


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## jowwy (3 Aug 2022)

rualexander said:


> Which might get you through a couple of months this winter, if you're lucky 😬



It staying in my bank, no way im paying a 185 monthly direct debit……..i pay when the bill arrives and for what i use.

also got the governments £66 a month for 6 months too add ro the winter payments. So that will help the sting a bit.


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## si_c (3 Aug 2022)

jowwy said:


> Just had this months gas bill……£27.23.
> electric will be around £65…….so thats £92, e-on wanted me to pay a direct debit of £185 a month, if i did that since april i would now be nearly £400 in credit.


We've just had the first full month in the house, just the two of us although we did have my MIL staying with us for a week, £18 for Gas, £61 for electricity, and given that I work from home and use a fairly powerful computer I'll take that happily. DD is set for £130 which I think is reasonable for the moment, although I expect to be in credit by the end of winter. We've been living in a cold house for years and are used to using blankets/jumpers instead of turning up the heating.


jowwy said:


> ours will get a bit higher come winter, but not a lot……..


I'm genuinely curious as to what ours will be, I've done a lot of insulation work on the property before we moved in (and I plan to re-do whats in the loft as well) so hopefully the cost of heating will be low-ish.


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## jowwy (3 Aug 2022)

si_c said:


> We've just had the first full month in the house, just the two of us although we did have my MIL staying with us for a week, £18 for Gas, £61 for electricity, and given that I work from home and use a fairly powerful computer I'll take that happily. DD is set for £130 which I think is reasonable for the moment, although I expect to be in credit by the end of winter. We've been living in a cold house for years and are used to using blankets/jumpers instead of turning up the heating.
> 
> I'm genuinely curious as to what ours will be, I've done a lot of insulation work on the property before we moved in (and I plan to re-do whats in the loft as well) so hopefully the cost of heating will be low-ish.



my electric just came in at £65....i work fromm home too, but my bedroom office runs on solar and i cook mainly outside on outdoor grill and pizza oven


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## mjr (3 Aug 2022)

jowwy said:


> Just had this months gas bill……£27.23.
> electric will be around £65…….so thats £92, e-on wanted me to pay a direct debit of £185 a month, if i did that since april i would now be nearly £400 in credit.


Energy companies appear to be trying to set DDs so you will be at zero next April without increasing over the winter. I'm not sure whether this is genuinely trying to avoid people needing to increase energy payments at the same time as Christmas spending, or trying to bolster their balances until they can increase prices again. 

Either way, I prefer the money I'm putting aside for this winter to be in my savings account (earning a little interest for me instead of them) rather than my electricity account ( earning nothing).


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## si_c (3 Aug 2022)

mjr said:


> Energy companies appear to be trying to set DDs so you will be at zero next April without increasing over the winter. I'm not sure whether this is genuinely trying to avoid people needing to increase energy payments at the same time as Christmas spending, or trying to bolster their balances until they can increase prices again.
> 
> Either way, I prefer the money I'm putting aside for this winter to be in my savings account (earning a little interest for me instead of them) rather than my electricity account ( earning nothing).



AIUI, they're required to make sure people have the option to manage their fuel bills such that they won't be unable to afford monthly payments over the winter without seeing large shock bills and to help people budget. It's easy to just blame them for maximising how much of your money they have it's easy enough to opt out if you want to. Either doing what you are or just opting for full monthly billing.

Personally I'm lazy and so for making my life easier I prefer to have a fixed payment month to month, if I do build up to big of a credit balance then it's easy enough to request it back.


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## jowwy (3 Aug 2022)

si_c said:


> AIUI, they're required to make sure people have the option to manage their fuel bills such that they won't be unable to afford monthly payments over the winter without seeing large shock bills and to help people budget. It's easy to just blame them for maximising how much of your money they have it's easy enough to opt out if you want to. Either doing what you are or just opting for full monthly billing.
> 
> Personally I'm lazy and so for making my life easier I prefer to have a fixed payment month to month, if I do build up to big of a credit balance then it's easy enough to request it back.



Not all of them allow payment on receipt of bill though…..and quite a few of them wont allow to reduce your DDs either.


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## presta (4 Aug 2022)

Spanish energy saving:

View: https://twitter.com/euronews/status/1554395404686573568


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## Illaveago (4 Aug 2022)

Ofgem aren't helping ! They have just announced that they will be reviewing the prices more often so that the suppliers can charge more!


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## jowwy (4 Aug 2022)

Illaveago said:


> Ofgem aren't helping ! They have just announced that they will be reviewing the prices more often so that the suppliers can charge more!



or less if that may be the case.......but i doubt it


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## GuyBoden (4 Aug 2022)

Ofgem new rules include charging the new supplier if you move.


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## Illaveago (4 Aug 2022)

GuyBoden said:


> Ofgem new rules include charging the new supplier if you move.



House ?


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## gbb (4 Aug 2022)

Looking back at ours...electric and gas combined 
May £208
June £133
July £125

I can't remember at what stage we made major changes but hot water boiler run times have been reduced, eco programs now used on the washing machine and dishwasher...and a general healthier awareness of what we do and what impact it has. Those are very significant reductions for not much effort tbf.
We're still facing higher bills, £125 was around our winter bill before the last price rises, we have more to come but the above just goes to show how you can become wasteful, extravagant without actually realising it.


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## si_c (4 Aug 2022)

gbb said:


> just goes to show how you can become wasteful, extravagant without actually realising it.


I noticed a decrease of about £25 per month just by changing how my computer puts itself to sleep, it now does it after 15 minutes instead of 2 hours, I started changing the settings for that decades ago as I hated waiting for my computer to wake up again. It's not an issue with modern computers now anyway and putting the computer to sleep puts all the connected electronics to sleep as well, the saving surprised me.


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## GuyBoden (5 Aug 2022)

Illaveago said:


> House ?



No, the new Ofgem rules charge the new supplier, when you move to a new supplier.

This is a significant change of rules for suppliers.


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## simongt (7 Aug 2022)

Just had our water bill in; we're on a meter. Apparently we're ( me, the GLW and the cats )using about the same amount of water as a single occupancy property.  Odd as we don't conciously stint on our use of the stuff, but we consider ourselvers to be reaonably sensible about it; i.e., dont' have the washing machine on every day and the dishwasher is - usually me at the sink - !


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## Phaeton (7 Aug 2022)

GuyBoden said:


> No, the new Ofcom rules charge the new supplier, when you move to a new supplier.


Are you sure that would stop all mobile switching


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## Alex321 (7 Aug 2022)

GuyBoden said:


> No, the new Ofcom rules charge the new supplier, when you move to a new supplier.
> 
> This is a significant change of rules for suppliers.



Do you have any cite for that? I can't find any reference to it. 

AFAIK, Ofcom don't charge either supplier when you switch, I'm not even sure they have the right to do so.


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## PaulSB (9 Aug 2022)

I have criticised British Gas several times in here over recent months. Today I resolved to speak to a person no matter how long I waited in a queue. Three calls later I got a guy who could not have been more helpful. The end result is my account has been reset, the units used have been reduced by gas 776, electric 274 and I will be rebilled for the period November 1st 2021 to August 9th. This should result in a substantial refund or credit. We then start again with today's readings. An engineer will be coming on September 6th to fix the smart meters and my phone number has been updated - that one has taken six, yes 6, years!

Just goes to show what can happen when you speak to a person who understands and wants to solve the problem. Result!


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## gbb (10 Aug 2022)

PaulSB said:


> I have criticised British Gas several times in here over recent months. Today I resolved to speak to a person no matter how long I waited in a queue. Three calls later I got a guy who could not have been more helpful. The end result is my account has been reset, the units used have been reduced by gas 776, electric 274 and I will be rebilled for the period November 1st 2021 to August 9th. This should result in a substantial refund or credit. We then start again with today's readings. An engineer will be coming on September 6th to fix the smart meters and my phone number has been updated - that one has taken six, yes 6, years!
> 
> Just goes to show what can happen when you speak to a person who understands and wants to solve the problem. Result!



The personal touch cannot be beaten...assuming you don't get an ass on the end of the phone.
I have noticed, since covid particually, its getting increasingly difficult to talk to anyone, either you're waiting in a never ending queue, even finding a number to call is becoming increasingly difficult, add to that the old 'have you tried filling in the form online yet ?'...you'd be forgiven for thinking....they really are distancing themselves from any desire to talk to you at all.


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## cougie uk (10 Aug 2022)

My electric deal is coming to a close next month. New one is just over double what I'm paying now. We will manage but I'm sure theres going to be millions of families unable to cope with a doubling of their costs - and the Tories are squabbling over who wants to lead the country. They have absolutely no clue what they are doing.


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## fossyant (10 Aug 2022)

Just been under the TV unit and unplugged the HDD PVR and Video/DVD - both been on standby, but we never use them. Hifi was un-plugged ages ago. Also getting in the habit of using the laptop on battery, now I've fitted a new battery - had to be plugged in before, so only plug in when needed. We always run the washer on 'quick low temperature' washes anyway, unless it's something that's got filthy. Occasionally my white shirts will get a hot wash.

Been looking at electricity consumption and we're around 18-20kw a day, so there is still room for improvement - it was more than double that !


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## jowwy (10 Aug 2022)

fossyant said:


> Just been under the TV unit and unplugged the HDD PVR and Video/DVD - both been on standby, but we never use them. Hifi was un-plugged ages ago. Also getting in the habit of using the laptop on battery, now I've fitted a new battery - had to be plugged in before, so only plug in when needed. We always run the washer on 'quick low temperature' washes anyway, unless it's something that's got filthy. Occasionally my white shirts will get a hot wash.
> 
> Been looking at electricity consumption and we're around *18-20kw* a day, so there is still room for improvement - it was more than double that !



That is huge fossy.....i told you to stop growing that weed in the greenhouse lol. I used 9.6kw/hs over the whole weekend.


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## cougie uk (10 Aug 2022)

According to our smart meter - we are using 121W at the moment. Nothing much on apart from all the TV/Laptops on standby. 

I'm not sure it's worth me buying timers to switch stuff off at night for this.


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## fossyant (10 Aug 2022)

jowwy said:


> That is huge fossy.....i told you to stop growing that weed in the greenhouse lol. I used 9.6kw/hs over the whole weekend.



I know - still recon there is enough being used by the hot tub pump, but it's a permanent installation. Unfortunately, 2 gaming PC's are often on for hours and they consume 500w or more.

Although last couple of days the air con has been on and that uses 1kw, so will account for a fair bit of the use. Our house becomes stupid hot in this weather in the bedrooms.


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## ColinJ (10 Aug 2022)

I just had my first inflation-boosted combined fuel quarterly bill from British Gas. It was for £258. That is well over double what I normally pay at this time of year. The next winter is going to be EXPENSIVE!!!! Let's hope that the weather is kind to us. 

I don't have remote monitoring of my meters. I will go down to the cellar and read the electricity meter then set an alarm to remind me to do it again at noon tomorrow. I will be interested to see how much power I use with a couple of lights on for 12 hours, 7 or 8 boiled kettles, and laptop and/or TV on for 12 hours, plus a few things on standby.


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## fossyant (10 Aug 2022)

ColinJ said:


> I just had my first inflation-boosted combined fuel quarterly bill from British Gas. It was for £258. That is well over double what I normally pay at this time of year. The next winter is going to be EXPENSIVE!!!! Let's hope that the weather is kind to us.
> 
> I don't have remote monitoring of my meters. I will go down to the cellar and read the electricity meter then set an alarm to remind me to do it again at noon tomorrow. I will be interested to see how much power I use with a couple of lights on for 12 hours, 7 or 8 boiled kettles, and laptop and/or TV on for 12 hours, plus a few things on standby.



Worth doing - I just read the meter once a month, but doing it every few days this week to see if the new fridge/freezer makes a difference from the really old fridge and freezer units (they were knackered). Pop it in a spreadsheet.


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## ColinJ (10 Aug 2022)

fossyant said:


> Worth doing - I just read the meter once a month, but doing it every few days this week to see if the new fridge/freezer makes a difference from the really old fridge and freezer units (they were knackered). Pop it in a spreadsheet.



Oh yes, I forgot the fridge! It might be worth me buying a new one soon. The current one has seen better days...


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## cougie uk (10 Aug 2022)

fossyant said:


> I know - still recon there is enough being used by the hot tub pump, but it's a permanent installation. Unfortunately, 2 gaming PC's are often on for hours and they consume 500w or more.
> 
> Although last couple of days the air con has been on and that uses 1kw, so will account for a fair bit of the use. Our house becomes stupid hot in this weather in the bedrooms.



Have you tried black out blinds on the windows letting the hot sun in ? I think we will need to plan our houses better for the heat in future - air con isn't going to be viable for a lot of people.


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## Phaeton (10 Aug 2022)

cougie uk said:


> I'm not sure it's worth me buying timers to switch stuff off at night for this.


As I understand it & I'm willing to be educated that I'm wrong, but the time switches often use as much electricity as the units do on standby. I have 3x dawn till dusk lights around the back of the house, they only have 4W bulbs in them, but the units take 6W units even during the day, I've put 2 of them on switches, it's not convenient for the 3rd.


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## si_c (10 Aug 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Have you tried black out blinds on the windows letting the hot sun in ? I think we will need to plan our houses better for the heat in future - air con isn't going to be viable for a lot of people.



A lot of people are going to end up opting for the portable units which vent out using a hose, but they're horribly inefficient and don't cool a building nearly as well as a proper installation, which will just make things worse. Blocking out the sun will work for most and properly designed homes are the way to avoid temperature extremes inside.


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## presta (10 Aug 2022)

Paul Lewis has just been on the radio saying that Shell wholesale are not allowed to use their profit to subsidise Shell retail. That's interesting, because I assumed that was the reason why I'm getting such a good deal from them. (£1250 fixed from Sept 2021 to Sept 2023)


gbb said:


> its getting increasingly difficult to talk to anyone


I followed every option on the Post Office auto attendant once, and none of them reached a human.


fossyant said:


> Been looking at electricity consumption and we're around 18-20kw a day, so there is still room for improvement - it was more than double that !


Unless you have electric heating, you're still more than double the average.








fossyant said:


> see if the new fridge/freezer makes a difference from the really old fridge and freezer units


I used to have a cooker with a dodgy thermostat that switched the oven on by itself occasionally, a 43 year old fridge with a torn door seal, and the gap between the freezer and the floor was filled with ice. My bill halved when I got rid of them.


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## fossyant (10 Aug 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Have you tried black out blinds on the windows letting the hot sun in ? I think we will need to plan our houses better for the heat in future - air con isn't going to be viable for a lot of people.



Thick curtains closed - it's the walls that radiate heat. Modern building, cheap as chips on gas heating (not electric due to gadgets), but the walls retain heat over a number of sunny days. Great in winter, not summer. Can't open the windows much as we have 'house cats'.


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## gzoom (10 Aug 2022)

jowwy said:


> It staying in my bank, no way im paying a 185 monthly direct debit……..i pay when the bill arrives and for what i use.



For interest I just looked at our energy bill for Jan 2021, and costed out the likely change based on FIXED prices for Jan 2023...

We used 500kWh of electricity at 16p/kWh and 5000kWh of gas at 2.6p/kWh = £210 without standing charge.

Current FIXED prices are 70p/kWh for electricity and 20p/kWh for gas = £1,350 without standing charge.

These are costs coming to ALL of us very very soon .


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## Jody (10 Aug 2022)

ColinJ said:


> I just had my first inflation-boosted combined fuel quarterly bill from British Gas. It was for £258. That is well over double what I normally pay at this time of year. The next winter is going to be EXPENSIVE!!!! Let's hope that the weather is kind to us.



Just had Bulb advise my DD needs putting up to £160 a month as apparently I'm using £157 a month. Highest bill this year was £120 so not sure who's in charge of the calculator. Apparently it's to help me build up credit ready for the winter 

The prediction is showing December to be just under £200 

Definitely going to be an expensive winter


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## jowwy (10 Aug 2022)

fossyant said:


> Thick curtains closed - it's the walls that radiate heat. Modern building, cheap as chips on gas heating (not electric due to gadgets), but the walls retain heat over a number of sunny days. Great in winter, not summer. Can't open the windows much as we have 'house cats'.



we use harness's on the cats in the summer and long retractable leads, they love em, as they can wonder in and out when needed........the Mrs is sat out there now on the deck, both cats led on the grass in the harness's just sleeping


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## jowwy (10 Aug 2022)

gzoom said:


> For interest I just looked at our energy bill for Jan 2021, and costed out the likely change based on FIXED prices for Jan 2023...
> 
> We used 500kWh of electricity at 16p/kWh and 5000kWh of gas at 2.6p/kWh = £210 without standing charge.
> 
> ...



mine is 30p kwh electric and 7p kwh for gas........were are you getting the above from if its that high?? my last bill was £92

mine is the standard variable rate and pay when bill arrives ( no DD for me with utilities)


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## jowwy (10 Aug 2022)

Im sat at my desk at the moment and i have the smart meter next to me, this is how much i have used since it reset at midnight last night. Also shows you how much im currently using too.


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## ColinJ (10 Aug 2022)

I have just been in touch with British Gas to try to switch to monthly billing to avoid the shock of huge future quarterly bills. They said that I need smart meters. I pointed out that I do actually already have smart meters, only the data transmitter is broken and they failed to fix it in 2 attempts during the pandemic. I am now booked to get a new unit fitted at the start of September, will then switch to monthly billing, and be able to monitor my daily energy usage without having to go down into my cellar to read the meters!


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## si_c (10 Aug 2022)

ColinJ said:


> I have just been in touch with British Gas to try to switch to monthly billing to avoid the shock of huge future quarterly bills. They said that I need smart meters. I pointed out that I do actually already have smart meters, only the data transmitter is broken and they failed to fix it in 2 attempts during the pandemic. I am now booked to get a new unit fitted at the start of September, will then switch to monthly billing, and be able to monitor my daily energy usage without having to go down into my cellar to read the meters!



You should be able to switch to a monthly DD regardless of meter type. Might be worth making payments at the level you anticipate each month until they can figure their shoot out.


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## ColinJ (10 Aug 2022)

si_c said:


> You should be able to switch to a monthly DD regardless of meter type. Might be worth making payments at the level you anticipate each month until they can figure their shoot out.



If they had set a much later date for the meter update then I would have made more of a fuss but I can wait just over 3 weeks. They actually would have done it sooner but I will be away on the earlier dates that they offered.


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## MrGrumpy (10 Aug 2022)

jowwy said:


> That is huge fossy.....i told you to stop growing that weed in the greenhouse lol. I used 9.6kw/hs over the whole weekend.



Your comparing apples and oranges. Large families will always burn that but more . I’m averaging 15kwh a day just now. Maybe a bit more. Base load through the night is approx 0.22kwh. Which is quite lowish. Of course having a smart meter I can see half hrly figures. Can see something coming to life at 4am most mornings . Not worked out what that is yet ! 

Still planning on solar but need to be able to cover my base load minimum !


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## jowwy (10 Aug 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Your comparing apples and oranges. Large families will always burn that but more . I’m averaging 15kwh a day just now. Maybe a bit more. Base load through the night is approx 0.22kwh. Which is quite lowish. Of course having a smart meter I can see half hrly figures. Can see something coming to life at 4am most mornings . Not worked out what that is yet !
> 
> Still planning on solar but need to be able to cover my base load minimum !



Of course difference size families will use more, im not saying they wont.

Is it your fridge or freezer kicking in??? Or maybe routers firing up ready for use??


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## MrGrumpy (10 Aug 2022)

Actually might be CCTV ! I forgot all about that !!


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## mjr (10 Aug 2022)

jowwy said:


> mine is 30p kwh electric and 7p kwh for gas........were are you getting the above from if its that high?? my last bill was £92
> 
> mine is the standard variable rate and pay when bill arrives ( no DD for me with utilities)


Fixed rates offered are considerably higher than current prices because everyone is expecting increases over the next two, maybe three, cap periods at least.


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## MrGrumpy (11 Aug 2022)

I also think there is an element of providers not wanting you to fix ! Why else would they want you to fix it for two years at this !!!!!????


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## jowwy (11 Aug 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> I also think there is an element of providers not wanting you to fix ! Why else would they want you to fix it for two years at this !!!!!????
> 
> View attachment 656732



yup rediculous


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## mjr (11 Aug 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> I also think there is an element of providers not wanting you to fix ! Why else would they want you to fix it for two years at this !!!!!????


Because then they pretty much know they've got that income for two years. That's the benefit for them, but of course they try to price it so they don't lose money over the term, even if prices go up a bit more than they expect.


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## fossyant (11 Aug 2022)

67p a kwh.....


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## Jody (11 Aug 2022)

fossyant said:


> 67p a kwh.....



Wave bye bye to the kids PC gaming at that cost


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## jowwy (11 Aug 2022)

fossyant said:


> 67p a kwh.....



time for solar fossy lol


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## fossyant (11 Aug 2022)

Jody said:


> Wave bye bye to the kids PC gaming at that cost



One is out at work now, and the other will be at Uni (although will be home at night) - expensive having 4 adults in a house.


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## Littgull (11 Aug 2022)

jowwy said:


> time for solar fossy lol



Am I right in assuming that solar panels are not suitable for many as apart from the capital cost you need a South facing roof for it to be viable?


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## fossyant (11 Aug 2022)

Littgull said:


> Am I right in assuming that solar panels are not suitable for many as apart from the capital cost you need a South facing roof for it to be viable?



More or less. Our roof is East/west so we only get sun half a day on each face. The garage is south facing, but there are trees that shade it most of the year due to angle of the sun.


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## Phaeton (11 Aug 2022)

Littgull said:


> Am I right in assuming that solar panels are not suitable for many as apart from the capital cost you need a South facing roof for it to be viable?



Not really, in an ideal world yes, but East/West roofs can work & in some cases are better, a West facing roof can be good if you work away from home all day & are home in the evening. I'm waiting for my install on the 22nd on my South facing roof, but I'm already looking at having another 6 panels put on a West facing roof. 

But there are additional costs involved as you will have to have 2 inverters or several micro inverters, the array works at the lowest performing panel, so in the morning the East panels will be trying to produce more than the West panels & then in later in the day the West more than the East. So you would need them to be split, I know sort of the theory but you'd need somebody who actually knows to give you proper advise, which I think is the hardest part.

I've gone with a company who my gut says are good, but we'll see in the future whether they are or not.


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## jowwy (11 Aug 2022)

Littgull said:


> Am I right in assuming that solar panels are not suitable for many as apart from the capital cost you need a South facing roof for it to be viable?



before i set-up my solar panel (120w) that i use to run my office, i spent days/weeks tracking the sun across the garden from my office window. My panel is in the sun for nearly 14hrs of the day in the summer months and around 6hrs during the winter. So i knew that i would have enough solar to charge my solar generator that i use to run my laptop, screen, tv and sky Q box.......i draw about 70w an hour for all 4 items ( i only plug the laptop in when the batteries is at 10%) and the 500wh generator will last all day, as tis charging off the panel as i use it. 

Most input i have seen from my panel is around 80watts...which means i wouldnt be usng any battery power during those times and if it dips below 70watts, then i start to use the battery to supplement the dip.

I know that doesnt help some people, but will hep others. What it means, is that a WFH and draw no power from the grid to do so.


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## gzoom (11 Aug 2022)

fossyant said:


> 67p a kwh.....



Business are now been quoted 91p/kWh (no that isn't a typo)!!! Bare in mind Russia is still supplying gas to German, whats going to happen come winter when Putin turns the taps off completely.


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## gzoom (11 Aug 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> I also think there is an element of providers not wanting you to fix ! Why else would they want you to fix it for two years at this !!!!!????


Historically energy providers have always PUSHED fixed rates, because they actually make a tidy profit. Whats happening now is the domestic price cap is preventing energy providers from charging the consumer the actual going rate/cost of energy, hence why a whole load of them went bankrupt. 

The actual cost of electricity and gas is far higher than the price cap at present. The government is only going to have 2 options soon, let energy companies pass on all the additional costs (currently upto 90p/kWh for electricity) to the consumer, or nationalise everything.


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## fossyant (11 Aug 2022)

gzoom said:


> Business are now been quoted 91p/kWh (no that isn't a typo)!!! Bare in mind Russia is still supplying gas to German, whats going to happen come winter when Putin turns the taps off completely.



Yikes... I'll be ensuring daughter's Xbox and PS4 aren't on standby.


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## gbb (11 Aug 2022)

Its all certainly making people aware of what they're doing and its cost and what they can buy to mitigate it. My son has just brought a new fan, the old one was 80w and not particually good at moving air, new one is DC voltage 20w and is so much better.
Our old trusty plasma tv, one I'd hung onto for years because of its picture quality, recently gone and I'm glad in a way, itsenergy consumption was 4 times higher than newer tvs.
The good to come from all this is we're being forced to reduce consumption. The environmental impact must surely be good. 

It will also teach some to budget better...I know two families, one from my own, on benefits who squander their money on takeaway several times a week and yet don't pay bills and get into debt. You'd like to think this will be a wake up call for some and act responsibly, with some financial discipline.


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## fossyant (11 Aug 2022)

We had a light fitting that took 8 x 20w halogen bulbs. Those were changed for 2w LED's, and as well as a massive reduction in power, heat was also reduced (the main reason TBH). Even two old security lights that had 150w bulbs in, have had 10w retrofit LED's fitted. I don't think the bike garage will have the tube heater on this year !


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## jowwy (11 Aug 2022)

yeh it is certainly making people look at what they use and consume.......its an eye opener for sure. But not everyone can go around replacing things for lower energy consumption products.


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## Phaeton (11 Aug 2022)

jowwy said:


> But not everyone can go around replacing things for lower energy consumption products.


Agreed, especially as the price of the replacements are going up in price as well.

The TV along with the sound bar & network hub all come off a 4 way gang, think I'll be looking at how that can go via a switch over the weekend.


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## jowwy (11 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Agreed, especially as the price of the replacements are going up in price as well.
> 
> The TV along with the sound bar & network hub all come off a 4 way gang, think I'll be looking at how that can go via a switch over the weekend.



i got them on a gang with individual switches, so switch 2 off ( TV and Soundbar) leave SkyQ running


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## fossyant (11 Aug 2022)

LED bulbs are particularly expensive. We were thinking of changing the bulbs in MIL's house for the energy rating, but just changed those we could for halogen - would have been hideously expensive for a house we are selling. 

I think it cost me over £30 to change the five candle bulbs in the lounge to LED - that said, not one has blown, unlike the so called energy saving 'halogens' that one would blow on a weekly basis.


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## si_c (11 Aug 2022)

fossyant said:


> LED bulbs are particularly expensive. We were thinking of changing the bulbs in MIL's house for the energy rating, but just changed those we could for halogen - would have been hideously expensive for a house we are selling.
> 
> I think it cost me over £30 to change the five candle bulbs in the lounge to LED - that said, not one has blown, unlike the so called energy saving 'halogens' that one would blow on a weekly basis.



Depends on the bulbs, when we moved into the new house the old bulbs were a mix of the fluorescent tube types, halogen and incandescent (I would have all incandescent bulbs if I could, cost be damned, I prefer the light they give out) but we replaced them all with 100W equivalent LEDS from amazon, cost about £2 each. Edit: those bulbs are about 5W each.


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## roubaixtuesday (11 Aug 2022)

fossyant said:


> LED bulbs are particularly expensive. We were thinking of changing the bulbs in MIL's house for the energy rating, but just changed those we could for halogen - would have been hideously expensive for a house we are selling.
> 
> I think it cost me over £30 to change the five candle bulbs in the lounge to LED - that said, not one has blown, unlike the so called energy saving 'halogens' that one would blow on a weekly basis.



It would be interesting to work out the payback time. 

AFAICT the price cap is forecast to go up to something like 50p/kwh.

A 60W bulb costs 3p/hr to run at that price. 

A 60W equivalent LED costs £4 each from b&q and uses only 10W

So payback is roughly 160 hours run time, maybe as little as 1 month in a well used room in winter, perhaps a year if in a little used room. 

I may have done my sums wrong of course, and there is the issue that if your hearing is on a thermostat, it will in principle need to put on an equivalent amount more energy to make up for that no longer coming from the bulb. 

But I reckon unless you can't afford to eat, there is probably no better investment you can make.


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## Phaeton (11 Aug 2022)

jowwy said:


> i got them on a gang with individual switches, so switch 2 off ( TV and Soundbar) leave SkyQ running



Unfortunately my gang is on the wall behind the TV & cannot be got to, it goes down the wall & into a socket under the floor. I wonder how much current one of those Alexa sockets use in standby mode, as that would be the logical option, save any wiring etc.


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## Arrowfoot (11 Aug 2022)

It's is really sad for a country that initiated the world first civil nuclear program in 1956 to see its citizens counting power consumption of fans and bulbs. What about those who can't afford heating in winter. Many of them suffer in silence and in their old age it is not at all fair.


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## fossyant (11 Aug 2022)

My niece can't afford to top up her electric meter as it is (asked her mum for money last week),so goodness knows how she'll manage come winter.


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## Mo1959 (11 Aug 2022)

Arrowfoot said:


> It's is really sad for a country that initiated the world first civil nuclear program in 1956 to see its citizens counting power consumption of fans and bulbs. What about those who can't afford heating in winter. Many of them suffer in silence and in their old age it is not at all fair.



I still have storage heaters. I quite like them anyway. As it’s a bungalow I’m going to try and get by this winter with just the hall one on and letting the heat from that get to the other rooms. I can see a few days with.a fleecy blanket over me will be required!


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## jowwy (11 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Unfortunately my gang is on the wall behind the TV & cannot be got to, it goes down the wall & into a socket under the floor. I wonder how much current one of those Alexa sockets use in standby mode, as that would be the logical option, save any wiring etc.



shucks.....not always easy when we hide sockets away


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## Phaeton (11 Aug 2022)

Arrowfoot said:


> It's is really sad for a country that initiated the world first civil nuclear program in 1956 to see its citizens counting power consumption of fans and bulbs. What about those who can't afford heating in winter. Many of them suffer in silence and in their old age it is not at all fair.



But there is a fear of the inevitable big bang especially if you put them in the hands of greedy capitalists who will cut the safety inspections to a minimum


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## Phaeton (11 Aug 2022)

Mo1959 said:


> I still have storage heaters. I quite like them anyway. As it’s a bungalow I’m going to try and get by this winter with just the hall one on and letting the heat from that get to the other rooms. I can see a few days with.a fleecy blanket over me will be required!



Sister has just moved out of a bungalow with storage heaters, cost her £350 a month last year, would hate to think what the cost would have gone to this year.


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## Jody (11 Aug 2022)

I think I have enough fluorescent bulbs to last decades. Bought loads of them when they were on offer at 10p each. Most of them were around 8w so a good saving over halogen


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## mjr (11 Aug 2022)

roubaixtuesday said:


> I may have done my sums wrong of course, and there is the issue that if your hearing is on a thermostat,


Pardon? It's too hot for me to hear you 



> it will in principle need to put on an equivalent amount more energy to make up for that no longer coming from the bulb.


Probably not completely because most bulbs are up near the ceiling or hard against walls, where people generally aren't, so it's OK if that immediate area is a bit cooler, but of course, the extra cooling of the main body of the room matters.


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## mjr (11 Aug 2022)

fossyant said:


> Also getting in the habit of using the laptop on battery, now I've fitted a new battery - had to be plugged in before, so only plug in when needed.


Surely unless you're charging from solar or economy 7 or similar, that won't help because of the inefficiency of charging a battery? I'm assuming your "power management" settings are similar for mains and battery power and that the laptop mains transformer isn't rubbish at low loads.

The rule of thumb for low power always used to be to charge the battery and then eject it, although you then lose the benefit of the laptop staying on if there's a power cut.


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## cyberknight (11 Aug 2022)

fossyant said:


> My niece can't afford to top up her electric meter as it is (asked her mum for money last week),so goodness knows how she'll manage come winter.



piece of the news today , the advice was deferred payment so the companies and goverments dont have a clue or don't give a monkeys
Talking to someone today and he thought their will be a lot of people defaulting on rent/mortgages soon.Im lucky that atm we are getting disability / carer's allowance as my pay rise hasn't even covered the increases so far


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## gbb (11 Aug 2022)

Arrowfoot said:


> It's is really sad for a country that initiated the world first civil nuclear program in 1956 to see its citizens counting power consumption of fans and bulbs. What about those who can't afford heating in winter. Many of them suffer in silence and in their old age it is not at all fair.



Tis true. For all my previous post about people I know on benefits who squander it...there are plenty living on the breadline who don't. I genuinely feel for them. At the same time its mixed with our experiences of our own life that was conducted on meagre wages, no benefits whatsoever, we worked hard, budgeted hard, led pretty meagre lives yet came out on top, house owning with a healthy savings pot. Living within ones means is the key, its something a lot of people won't do.


I've read a couple articles lately where Rolls Royce are developing SMRs, small modular reactors that show great promise. Each being the size of a couple football fields but can power a small city. 



Phaeton said:


> Sister has just moved out of a bungalow with storage heaters, cost her £350 a month last year, would hate to think what the cost would have gone to this year.


Genuine sympathy, we had similar when were young and fairly newly married...we simply couldn't use it, couldn't afford to, it was so expensive.


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## Phaeton (11 Aug 2022)

cyberknight said:


> piece of the news today , the advice was deferred payment so the companies and goverments dont have a clue or don't give a monkeys
> Talking to someone today and he thought their will be a lot of people defaulting on rent/mortgages soon.Im lucky that atm we are getting disability / carer's allowance as my pay rise hasn't even covered the increases so far



Pay rise this year, the first in 5 years amounted to £84 per month, not seen the benefit of it, but I suppose if I hadn't received it we'd be in a worse position.



gbb said:


> Genuine sympathy, we had similar when were young and fairly newly married...we simply couldn't use it, couldn't afford to, it was so expensive.


Not using it wasn't really an option, my father who at the time was 97 felt the cold, my 83 year old brother in law has severe Parkinsons, so he too has difficulty keeping warm, they've moved into a house with oil heating but that has jumped in cost, especially as somebody has helped themselves to over 3,000 litres of the stuff whilst they weren't living there.


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## PaulSB (11 Aug 2022)

si_c said:


> You should be able to switch to a monthly DD regardless of meter type. Might be worth making payments at the level you anticipate each month until they can figure their shoot out.



With British Gas it's more complicated than it should be. If one wants monthly billing with direct debit it has to be a variable DD when a lot of people, myself included, prefer a DD for the same monthly amount to help with budgeting.

The other alternative is quarterly billing with a fixed monthly direct debit. Of course quarterly billing can lead to nasty shocks for those who don't take monthly readings and then calculate their usage that month.


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## gbb (11 Aug 2022)

PaulSB said:


> With British Gas it's more complicated than it should be. If one wants monthly billing with direct debit it has to be a variable DD when a lot of people, myself included, prefer a DD for the same monthly amount to help with budgeting.
> 
> The other alternative is quarterly billing with a fixed monthly direct debit. Of course quarterly billing can lead to nasty shocks for those who don't take monthly readings and then calculate their usage that month.



But, you could argue this is where taking responsibility and basic budgeting is a basic necessity. Take control, monitor usage, budget and put by each month toward that quarterly bill. As you say, those that don't take readings...and responsibility, cant really complain .


----------



## ColinJ (11 Aug 2022)

PaulSB said:


> With British Gas it's more complicated than it should be. If one wants monthly billing with direct debit it has to be a variable DD when a lot of people, myself included, prefer a DD for the same monthly amount to help with budgeting.
> 
> The other alternative is quarterly billing with a fixed monthly direct debit. Of course quarterly billing can lead to nasty shocks for those who don't take monthly readings and then calculate their usage that month.



My current quarterly bill is variable DD but I want a monthly DD. I would prefer that to be variable so I just pay for what I use. I don't like the idea of overpaying, and I definitely do not want to get behind in my payments.

I checked my electricity usage over the past 24 hours - only 2 kWh - I can live with that! 3 kWh would probably be more typical because I didn't use the microwave or fan ovens yesterday.

Once I have the smart meter set up properly and the heating eventually goes back on, I will have to work out if it is cheaper to use a small electric convector heater next to me, or the central heating on its lowest setting with most of the radiators in the rest of the house turned right down.


----------



## jowwy (11 Aug 2022)

ColinJ said:


> My current quarterly bill is variable DD but I want a monthly DD. I would prefer that to be variable so I just pay for what I use. I don't like the idea of overpaying, and I definitely do not want to get behind in my payments.
> 
> I checked my electricity usage over the past 24 hours - only 2 kWh - I can live with that! 3 kWh would probably be more typical because I didn't use the microwave or fan ovens yesterday.
> 
> Once I have the smart meter set up properly and the heating eventually goes back on, I will have to work out if it is cheaper to use a small electric convector heater next to me, or the central heating on its lowest setting with most of the radiators in the rest of the house turned right down.



No fridge or freezer in your house then or tv, internet etc etc


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (11 Aug 2022)

Littgull said:


> Am I right in assuming that solar panels are not suitable for many as apart from the capital cost you need a South facing roof for it to be viable?



We have a weird shaped rook - triangular on 4 sides - so we could only get a few panels on
5 on the back - south facing - and 3 on the West facing side
I did ask about having them on the North facing side which gets a lot of sun in the evening - but the company installing them said it was not worth it as it would only generate a reasonable about of power for a few weeks a year

so - yes - it depends on the orientation and shape of you roof - and whether or not it is shaded by anything


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## ColinJ (11 Aug 2022)

jowwy said:


> No fridge or freezer in your house then or tv, internet etc etc



No freezer. That was fridge, lights, kettle, TV/Freesat box/stereo amp, router, laptop and phone chargers.


----------



## ColinJ (11 Aug 2022)

And... an electric toothbrush charger!


----------



## cougie uk (11 Aug 2022)

fossyant said:


> Thick curtains closed - it's the walls that radiate heat. Modern building, cheap as chips on gas heating (not electric due to gadgets), but the walls retain heat over a number of sunny days. Great in winter, not summer. Can't open the windows much as we have 'house cats'.



In normal summers you'd want the windows open but when the air is so hot outside - keep them shut. The cats are doing you a favour.


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## cougie uk (11 Aug 2022)

Arrowfoot said:


> It's is really sad for a country that initiated the world first civil nuclear program in 1956 to see its citizens counting power consumption of fans and bulbs. What about those who can't afford heating in winter. Many of them suffer in silence and in their old age it is not at all fair.



I think it's always good for people to look at their energy consumption. Wastage is bad for everyone. 
It must be terrifying for people struggling with energy bills. 
Our glorious leaders don't seem arsed at all about it. Well why would they - one's married to someone richer than the Queen and the other can just bung it all on expenses. 

They have absolutely no idea of how things really are.


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## PaulSB (11 Aug 2022)

gbb said:


> But, you could argue this is where taking responsibility and basic budgeting is a basic necessity. Take control, monitor usage, budget and put by each month toward that quarterly bill. As you say, those that don't take readings...and responsibility, cant really complain .



I'm sorry but I don't agree and I wasn't criticising people talking about those who don't take monthly readings.

Anyone who wishes to pay by a regular DD for a fixed amount should be able to do so. Such regular payments are a very good example of taking control and budgeting. It's always been my preferred method.

Taking monthly readings and calculating one's own bill isn't as simple as it sounds for many folk.


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## numbnuts (11 Aug 2022)

cougie uk said:


> I think it's always good for people to look at their energy consumption. Wastage is bad for everyone.
> It must be terrifying for people struggling with energy bills.
> Our glorious leaders don't seem arsed at all about it. Well why would they - one's married to someone richer than the Queen and the other can just bung it all on expenses.
> 
> They have absolutely no idea of how things really are.




Yes why would they, most have had a privileged up-bring and if asked the price of food items they would not have a clue.
If things don't change and we have a long hard winter I can see a few elderly more so if they live on their own taking the easy way out, I wonder if the government would then do anything or think that's one less we have to pay a pension too.


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## Phaeton (11 Aug 2022)

The wife & I got into a bit of an argument at lunch time, I was making a sandwich & she was deciding what to have, she's looking in the pantry. She pulls out a box of eggs, puts them on the counter, turns on the halogen hob on full, walks away to then take the pan out of the drawer, then goes into the utility where the fridge is, opens the fridge door, takes out the margarine & mushrooms, leaves the door open & comes back into the kitchen puts the pan on the hob, puts the margarine in the pan. Cracks & beats the eggs, by this time the fridge is bleeping, she cuts the mushrooms, I know I should have kept my mouth shut but just couldn't, so I asked why she had turned on the hob before getting the pan, why she had left the fridge door open.

I went outside to eat my sandwich.


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## ebikeerwidnes (11 Aug 2022)

cougie uk said:


> I think it's always good for people to look at their energy consumption. Wastage is bad for everyone.
> It must be terrifying for people struggling with energy bills.
> Our glorious leaders don't seem arsed at all about it. Well why would they - one's married to someone richer than the Queen and the other can just bung it all on expenses.
> 
> They have absolutely no idea of how things really are.



It is the lack of empathy that gets to me - I regard it as a basic necessity for someone making the decisions that affect the country


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## Alex321 (11 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> The wife & I got into a bit of an argument at lunch time, I was making a sandwich & she was deciding what to have, she's looking in the pantry. She pulls out a box of eggs, puts them on the counter, turns on the halogen hob on full, walks away to then take the pan out of the drawer, then goes into the utility where the fridge is, opens the fridge door, takes out the margarine & mushrooms, leaves the door open & comes back into the kitchen puts the pan on the hob, puts the margarine in the pan. Cracks & beats the eggs, by this time the fridge is bleeping, she cuts the mushrooms, I know I should have kept my mouth shut but just couldn't, so I asked why she had turned on the hob before getting the pan, why she had left the fridge door open.
> 
> I went outside to eat my sandwich.



If either my wife or I behaved the way your wife does, we certainly wouldn't still be married. Neither of us would have been able to tolerate the other acting that wastefully.


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## gbb (11 Aug 2022)

PaulSB said:


> I'm sorry but I don't agree and I wasn't criticising people talking about those who don't take monthly readings.
> 
> Anyone who wishes to pay by a regular DD for a fixed amount should be able to do so. Such regular payments are a very good example of taking control and budgeting. It's always been my preferred method.
> 
> Taking monthly readings and calculating one's own bill isn't as simple as it sounds for many folk.



Oh I sympathise and agree but I'm very pragmatic in life. If a company or someone is not offering what I need....I move. I dont get to set the rules, I find something that works for me within the framework someone sets out, if I cant, bye bye. 
Tbf, I didn't realise BG did this, I pay DD fixed amount to Bulb and it works well, gives you a solid start and some reassurance the bill will at least be mostly covered. Thats the way I thought they all operated.
Sounds like BG are making sure they collect every penny as soon as possible where the likes of Bulb effectively let you carry some debt or credit over the year. Swings and roundabouts, some people don't want to overpay and have a company holding their excess money, personally, that suits me fine.

Did Standing Order die over the years because I always thought, DD was a variable amount a company could take from your account, a Standing Order was a fixed amount you set , the company couldn't take more without at least giving you notification/ notice .


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## mjr (11 Aug 2022)

gbb said:


> Did Standing Order die over the years because I always thought, DD was a variable amount a company could take from your account, a Standing Order was a fixed amount you set , the company couldn't take more without at least giving you notification/ notice .


Companies can't do anything to standing orders. Only the bank account holder can. They hate them and most now penalise you for using them, or at least make it a pain to set up, by hiding the details needed and so on.


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## ebikeerwidnes (12 Aug 2022)

Normally a lot of people have a lot of credit built up by this point of the year due to paying the same every month but using far less in summer
However, I read the other day that the amount of credit in the system is far lower than normal - which will produce a really big problem come the winter!

As usual it is likelyto be the people who can least afford it that will be the ones that will be affected worst


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## jowwy (12 Aug 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> Normally a lot of people have a lot of credit built up by this point of the year due to paying the same every month but using far less in summer
> However, I read the other day that the amount of credit in the system is far lower than normal - which will produce a really big problem come the winter!
> 
> As usual it is likelyto be the people who can least afford it that will be the ones that will be affected worst



thats probably because no one has the surplus money, to pay the DDs the electric firms want, to keep their money rolling in.......

if yor original DD was for £100 lets say and then they up it to £300....who's got the extra £200 surplus in their accounts each month to send to the electric firms to build up the credit. Hardly anyone and most of the time you have ony used £150's worth, which means the other 150 is sat in their accounts earning them money.


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## mjr (12 Aug 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> Normally a lot of people have a lot of credit built up by this point of the year due to paying the same every month but using far less in summer
> However, I read the other day that the amount of credit in the system is far lower than normal - which will produce a really big problem come the winter!
> 
> As usual it is likelyto be the people who can least afford it that will be the ones that will be affected worst


I think that's energy company spin. With things so tight, some people are choosing to put the money aside in credit unions and building society accounts where at least it earns a little interest to help out, rather than give the dividend-extracting energy companies an interest-free loan.

Energy companies that were relying on that cheap borrowing from customers may go under, but fark 'em.

Time will tell.


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## fossyant (12 Aug 2022)

I'm £200 in credit, and that's after taking back £400 a couple of months back ! I'm currently overpaying by £100 per month but can't reduce the DD by more than £10-£20 a month as their annual review hasn't taken place yet (October). Should give me a buffer for the winter months, but I wasn't prepared to let them have £1000 in credit.

I read on one of the papers yesterday that the level of 'debt' on energy accounts is at a record high.


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## jowwy (12 Aug 2022)

fossyant said:


> I'm £200 in credit, and that's after taking back £400 a couple of months back ! I'm currently overpaying by £100 per month but can't reduce the DD by more than £10-£20 a month as their annual review hasn't taken place yet (October). Should give me a buffer for the winter months, but I wasn't prepared to let them have £1000 in credit.
> 
> I read on one of the papers yesterday that the level of 'debt' on energy accounts is at a record high.



its all according what they class as debt....i pay monthly on reciept of bill, but have 14 days to pay.

So my bill arrived on the 3rd August, which gives me til the 17th to pay, so they would class me as in debt.....but shouldnt until after the pay date. i get paid on the 15th of the month, so in truth i wont be in debt ( as they call it) after that date, as i will pay the bill then.


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## fossyant (12 Aug 2022)

jowwy said:


> its all according what they class as debt....i pay monthly on reciept of bill, but have 14 days to pay.
> 
> So my bill arrived on the 3rd August, which gives me til the 17th to pay, so they would class me as in debt.....but shouldnt until after the pay date. i get paid on the 15th of the month, so in truth i wont be in debt ( as they call it) after that date, as i will pay the bill then.



It's a bit like when I send the readings in. I don't do them on the 1st/2nd as my DD hasn't gone through yet, so submit around the 5th, that's when my DD's hit, so results in a credit.

I didn't watch the consumption very much in the past, and certainly when we started WFH over winter then I really noticed having only done a quarterly reading - gulp the bill was massive.


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## youngoldbloke (12 Aug 2022)

Back to topic now ... just checked my fixed electricity only account ending next month - wiil become variable, unit price up roughly 50%, standing charge over 100%!


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## jowwy (12 Aug 2022)

youngoldbloke said:


> *Back to topic now ... just checked my fixed electricity only account ending next month - wiil become variable, unit price up roughly 50%, standing charge over 100%!*



yup same happened to me at end of March....just in time for the april price increase. But you now have both increases to contend with as octobers is on the horrizon. your bill could triple at the end of september


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## ebikeerwidnes (12 Aug 2022)

youngoldbloke said:


> *, standing charge over 100%!*



Which is rather taking the whatsit

I can understand that oil and gas prices have risen - and hence electric costs more to generate - but the cost of running the company has not risen much and that is what the standing charge is supposed to be for

that is the sort of thing that the regulator is supposed to be there to protect us from - or so I rather naively thought


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## jowwy (12 Aug 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> Which is rather taking the whatsit
> 
> I can understand that oil and gas prices have risen - and hence electric costs more to generate - but the cost of running the company has not risen much and that is what the standing charge is supposed to be for
> 
> that is the sort of thing that the regulator is supposed to be there to protect us from - or so I rather naively thought



it was raised to pay for the bail out of the other companies, so they say....rather than putting it onto the unit rate. Which means at some point the standing charge should decrease, even if the unit rate doesnt.

We can hope lol


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## GuyBoden (12 Aug 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Do you have any cite for that? I can't find any reference to it.
> 
> AFAIK, Ofcom don't charge either supplier when you switch, I'm not even sure they have the right to do so.



They are the new OFGEM rules, the new suppliers has to pay the old supplier when you switch under certain circustances. They are calling it a 'market stabilisation' charge'.

The OFGEM representative was explaining the 'market stabilisation' charge' a while back on BBC Radio 4.
https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publications/market-stabilisation-charge-dashboard

Maybe, easier to understand on Martin Lewis' site here:
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/n...e-energy-price-cap-every-three/#stabilisation
"What is the 'market stabilisation charge' – and what does it mean for bills?

The 'market stabilisation charge' is a charge on suppliers when they sign up new customers. When you switch, the new supplier will have to pay this fee to the old provider if wholesale energy prices fall significantly.

It was introduced in April to enable suppliers that have bought lots of energy in advance – to cover the higher number of customers on standard variable tariffs right now – to recover some of the costs if wholesale prices drop suddenly and they see huge numbers of customers switching away from their standard tariff, according to Ofgem.

When it was introduced, suppliers would have to pay if wholesale prices dropped by 30% on the level Ofgem uses to calculate the price cap. The changes announced today mean that suppliers will now have to pay a charge if wholesale prices drop by just 10%.

Initially, the gaining supplier will have to pay the losing supplier 75% of the cost of the energy beyond this trigger point – this has now been increased to 85% following today's announcement.

This is worked out as a pound per kilowatt hour (£/kWh) charge which Ofgem will publish weekly. The charge is multiplied by the customer's annual usage and the gaining supplier pays that amount.

This could potentially kill the return of cheap deals for switchers if wholesale prices were to fall dramatically, as suppliers would have to bake these additional costs into the price of their tariffs."


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## jowwy (12 Aug 2022)

GuyBoden said:


> They are the new OFCOM Ofgem rules, the new suppliers has to pay the old supplier when you switch under certain circustances. They are calling it a 'market stabilisation' charge'.
> 
> The OFCOM Ofgem representative was explaining the 'market stabilisation' charge' a while back on BBC Radio 4.
> https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publications/market-stabilisation-charge-dashboard
> ...



FTFY


----------



## GuyBoden (12 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> No they are not, Ofcom might be a total waste of taxpayers money sitting in their Ivory tower with no concept of what is going in in their industry, however they have Rockall to do with energy/



Ok, it's OFGEM.

Easy mistake, sorry.

Edit: It's just too hot.


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## GuyBoden (12 Aug 2022)

GuyBoden said:


> Ofgem new rules include charging the new supplier if you move.



I did state Ofgem in my original post.


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## PaulSB (12 Aug 2022)

gbb said:


> Oh I sympathise and agree but I'm very pragmatic in life. If a company or someone is not offering what I need....I move. I dont get to set the rules, I find something that works for me within the framework someone sets out, if I cant, bye bye.
> *Tbf, I didn't realise BG did this, I pay DD fixed amount to Bulb and it works well, gives you a solid start and some reassurance the bill will at least be mostly covered. Thats the way I thought they all operated.*
> Sounds like BG are making sure they collect every penny as soon as possible where the likes of Bulb effectively let you carry some debt or credit over the year. Swings and roundabouts, some people don't want to overpay and have a company holding their excess money, personally, that suits me fine.
> 
> Did Standing Order die over the years because I always thought, DD was a variable amount a company could take from your account, a Standing Order was a fixed amount you set , the company couldn't take more without at least giving you notification/ notice .



My experience is yes they do all operate this way with the exception of BG. We have been with a variety of smaller energy companies for perhaps 20-25 years and all provided the service we wished to receive. Unfortunately when People's Energy went broke last August we were moved to BG as the "supplier of last resort." Never has a company been more accurately described, the customer service, billing etc. is utterly appalling and I could never recommend BG because of this. I must though emphasise we have used their boiler maintenance service for years and been very happy with and impressed by the engineers who arrive annually.

Yep, SOs died many years ago though of course one can still chose to set one up and I'm considering this as one way in which I tackle the looming crisis. I would love to move but now is not the time and when I did check other supplier's prices I couldn't get anything at a lower cost.

There are two types of DD, fixed and variable, self-explanatory really.


----------



## midlife (12 Aug 2022)

Not gas or electric but heating oil. Just pondering when would be the best time to fill the 1000 litre tank. Fuel on the forecourt seems to be going down.....


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## Phaeton (12 Aug 2022)

midlife said:


> Not gas or electric but heating oil. Just pondering when would be the best time to fill the 1000 litre tank. Fuel on the forecourt seems to be going down.....



Sister moved back into her house after failing to sell it, in the meantime somebody has been in & drained the full tank


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## ColinJ (12 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Sister moved back into her house after failing to sell it, in the meantime somebody has been in & drained the full tank



My sister had a load of old copper central heating pipes in her back garden which she was going to take to a scrap dealer but someone sneaked in while she was walking her dog and nicked the lot!


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## mjr (12 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Sister moved back into her house after failing to sell it, in the meantime somebody has been in & drained the full tank


Some people have all the luck! Took us ages to find someone willing to drain our old heating oil tank...


----------



## Alex321 (12 Aug 2022)

GuyBoden said:


> They are the new OFGEM rules, the new suppliers has to pay the old supplier when you switch under certain circustances. They are calling it a 'market stabilisation' charge'.
> 
> The OFGEM representative was explaining the 'market stabilisation' charge' a while back on BBC Radio 4.
> https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publications/market-stabilisation-charge-dashboard
> ...



Thanks. 

Makes some sense when you read that. I had wrongly thought it was OFGEM actually making the charge.

It does only apply if wholesale prices fall.


----------



## Phaeton (13 Aug 2022)

jowwy said:


> shucks.....not always easy when we hide sockets away



Just bought these 
View: https://smile.amazon.co.uk/dp/B09QQCVGSX?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_dt_b_asin_title
put one under the floor on the cable that runs the 4-way gang behind the TV, wonder how long it will take to get the £6.50 of the cost back by not having the TV, soundbar, network hub, power supply for Firestick all power up when not needed. 

There are 2 caveats, 1. SWMBO doesn't mind asking Alexa for permission to watch the TV 2. It is reliable & I don't have to keep lifting the floorboards again to reset it.


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## jowwy (13 Aug 2022)

Todays energy saving device brought to you by the sun, currently charging phone and ipad…..can also run the outside tv for around 5hrs without the sun.


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## MrGrumpy (14 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Just bought these
> View: https://smile.amazon.co.uk/dp/B09QQCVGSX?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_dt_b_asin_title
> put one under the floor on the cable that runs the 4-way gang behind the TV, wonder how long it will take to get the £6.50 of the cost back by not having the TV, soundbar, network hub, power supply for Firestick all power up when not needed.
> 
> There are 2 caveats, 1. SWMBO doesn't mind asking Alexa for permission to watch the TV 2. It is reliable & I don't have to keep lifting the floorboards again to reset it.




I bought similar , only thing is it’s just me that can control them !!! Not handy most of the time


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## Phaeton (14 Aug 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> I bought similar , only thing is it’s just me that can control them !!! Not handy most of the time



Do you have an Alexa or the Google equivalent? 

Do the others have smart phones?


----------



## MrGrumpy (14 Aug 2022)

Could probably get them to work , however that’s beyond my abilities


----------



## mjr (14 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Do you have an Alexa or the Google equivalent?
> 
> Do the others have smart phones?


Big tech spy listening devices are bad and people don't want to mess with smartphones to turn the TV on. Some years ago, I added an IR sensor to switch things on when the TV remote is pressed and off when the power usage falls (TV in standby) but still people grumble about pressing the remote on button twice! I think suggesting smartphone use might get the plug moved to an uncontrolled socket.


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## Phaeton (14 Aug 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Could probably get them to work , however that’s beyond my abilities





mjr said:


> I think suggesting smartphone use might get the plug moved to an uncontrolled socket.


TBF to the developers, you install the app, you find the (in my case) 3 sockets, you access each one from the app, you add your WiFi password & then they just work with the smartphone.

To add them to Alexa, you get it to search for them, name each one & again they just worked, once installed you don't have to touch your phone again, you just say 'Alexa turn on/off socket X' although if you lose the internet you lose the function, but there is a physical switch on the side.

What was interesting is that yesterday the TV, sound bar, hub & gubbins behind there used 1.48KWh of electricity yesterday, over 50p worth, easy to see how it all adds up.


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## MrGrumpy (14 Aug 2022)

_What was interesting is that yesterday the TV, sound bar, hub & gubbins behind there used 1.48KWh of electricity yesterday, over 50p worth, easy to see how it all adds up._

Thats a fair shout actually ! We may well be the same.


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## PaulSB (14 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> TBF to the developers, you install the app, you find the (in my case) 3 sockets, you access each one from the app, you add your WiFi password & then they just work with the smartphone.
> 
> To add them to Alexa, you get it to search for them, name each one & again they just worked, once installed you don't have to touch your phone again, you just say 'Alexa turn on/off socket X' although if you lose the internet you lose the function, but there is a physical switch on the side.
> *
> What was interesting is that yesterday the TV, sound bar, hub & gubbins behind there used 1.48KWh of electricity yesterday, over 50p worth, easy to see how it all adds up.*



Could you explain how you know this. I'm monitoring our usage every 24 hours but don't know what is using the energy.

Yesterday:

Gas £0.07p
Electric £1.73


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## Phaeton (14 Aug 2022)

PaulSB said:


> Could you explain how you know this. I'm monitoring our usage every 24 hours but don't know what is using the energy.
> 
> Yesterday:
> 
> ...



On the App for the sockets it tells you, what it doesn't tell you is how much the actual socket is using


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## presta (17 Aug 2022)

Cut your fuel bills in half this winter with these.



ColinJ said:


> Once I have the smart meter set up properly and the heating eventually goes back on, I will have to work out if it is cheaper to use a small electric convector heater next to me, or the central heating on its lowest setting with most of the radiators in the rest of the house turned right down.


I've tried switching the central heating off altogether and heating just one room by electric during several winters, and the cost seems about the same. Even though the room you're occupying is warm, you never feel warm because a large part of your comfort derives from radiant heat from the walls, and they're perpetually stone cold. The house also gets damp (my coffee table top de-laminated because the room was always so damp).

This is my total fuel bill over the last 30 odd years. The heat electric years are 2007-2010, and 2017, and they don't seem to noticeably buck the general trend overall.


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## ColinJ (17 Aug 2022)

presta said:


> Cut your fuel bills in half this winter with these.
> 
> 
> I've tried switching the central heating off altogether and heating just one room by electric during several winters, and the cost seems about the same. Even though the room you're occupying is warm, you never feel warm because a large part of your comfort derives from radiant heat from the walls, and they're perpetually stone cold. The house also gets damp (my coffee table top de-laminated because the room was always so damp).
> ...



You are probably right.

I think I will try to settle for lower temperatures in the house. Maybe 17-18 C in this room (rather than 19-20 C in recent years) and (say) 8-10 C elsewhere (vs 13-15 C).


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## fossyant (17 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> On the App for the sockets it tells you, what it doesn't tell you is how much the actual socket is using
> 
> View attachment 657373
> 
> ...



Keep us informed how you think these are. I'd probably use for energy monitoring. Got Smart Sockets in my lads room but they are a faff to set up as you have to knock off the 5 ghz portion of the wifi, then add it back on - they don't do power monitoring. The hot tub is on a single socket, so would be useful to see what it uses with just the pump/filter running, no heat ! And then the gaming PC's..


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## midlife (17 Aug 2022)

I pay towards the rent / bills for daughters flat. I wonder how much extra the bills will be from October onwards?


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## si_c (18 Aug 2022)

ColinJ said:


> You are probably right.
> 
> I think I will try to settle for lower temperatures in the house. Maybe 17-18 C in this room (rather than 19-20 C in recent years) and (say) 8-10 C elsewhere (vs 13-15 C).



When we were in the old house we played around and it was cheaper to run the central heating at 18° than to use a convection heater, it was also cheaper for us to keep the heating on all the time as the walls were big and thick and if you turned the heating off lost warmth really quickly and took a long time to warm up again.

Keep in mind that if set to a lower temperature the boiler will probably run in the 5-6kw range if heating a small to medium sized house, a 1kw electric heater is likely to cost more to run to just heat a small space.

For me the optimal was low temperature boiler ( I had mine set to 52°) thermostat set to 18 and rooms to 20 with a fleece on if feeling cold.


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## ColinJ (18 Aug 2022)

si_c said:


> For me the optimal was low temperature boiler ( I had mine set to 52°) thermostat set to 18 and rooms to 20 with a fleece on if feeling cold.



I was wearing long thermals top and bottom, cotton socks with big woolly socks over them, Ron Hill tracksters, long-sleeved top with a padded lumberjack shirt over the top, a buff round my neck, a second buff on my head, a big bushy bear on my face, and woolly mitts on my hands. I don't think I want to do much more than that in terms of clothing! 

Maybe I will drape a lightweight duvet or blanket over me though. That would make a big difference.


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## Wobblers (18 Aug 2022)

ColinJ said:


> I was wearing long thermals top and bottom, cotton socks with big woolly socks over them, Ron Hill tracksters, long-sleeved top with a padded lumberjack shirt over the top, a buff round my neck, a second buff on my head, *a big bushy bear on my face*, and woolly mitts on my hands.



Does that not make you look a bit grizzly in the morning, Colin?


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## ColinJ (18 Aug 2022)

Wobblers said:


> Does that not make you look a bit grizzly in the morning, Colin?



You tell me...? 







Well, perhaps not big and bushy by some standards but enough to keep an old chin warm in a chilly room!

As for the missing 'd'... I don't know if it is my laptop not rgistering keystrokes propely (there you go, it just did it again!) - or me not typing hard enough?


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## mjr (18 Aug 2022)

fossyant said:


> Keep us informed how you think these are. I'd probably use for energy monitoring. Got Smart Sockets in my lads room but they are a faff to set up as you have to knock off the 5 ghz portion of the wifi, then add it back on - they don't do power monitoring.


I've got a https://www.mylocalbytes.com/products/smart-plug-pm-1 which doesn't require knocking bits off the wifi network and does do power monitoring. That said, its setup is easiest with a mobile phone because it sets up its own temporary wifi when first powered on, which you then connect to and tell its web interface which wifi to use and the keys and so on. It's intended for use with HomeAssistant or compatible open systems, rather than the Big Tech Snoopy offerings like Alexa, so it might not be what anyone wants. I like it, but then I'm the sort of idiot who builds his own bikes and his own smart home controllers... and last night, trying to add a new feature, I accidentally set up a feedback loop where turning a light on resulted in the light being turned off, and vice-versa. The fast-flashing lights were not appreciated! Disco must be dead... 🕺🕺🕺



> The hot tub is on a single socket, so would be useful to see what it uses with just the pump/filter running, no heat ! And then the gaming PC's..


I would expect that the heater will dominate the pump power consumption, but the pump will run for longer. The heater will probably consume 3000W+ while the pump is probably something like 250W on low if it's a multi-speed one (and if it's a single-speed, it should run less often to achieve similar water throughput). Look up the specs of your hot tub's pump and heater if you want to get a pretty good idea. A smart socket probably won't tell you much more, similar to most kettles, where reading the label and timing boils with a stopwatch gives a pretty good estimate.

The gaming PCs would be far more interesting because there's a very wide variety of possibilities...


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## Phaeton (18 Aug 2022)

mjr said:


> I've got a https://www.mylocalbytes.com/products/smart-plug-pm-uk which doesn't require knocking bits off the wifi network and does do power monitoring. That said, its setup is easiest with a mobile phone because it sets up its own temporary wifi when first powered on, which you then connect to and tell its web interface which wifi to use and the keys and so on.



The ones I mentioned above use the same method to setup
ps Your link doesn't work it goes to 404


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## mjr (18 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> The ones I mentioned above use the same method to setup
> ps Your link doesn't work it goes to 404


Well that's ruddy shopify and its failure to keep the same links live for you! WooCommerce is far better... Anyway, for some reason, the -uk has changed to -1 since I bought it, so I've edited the previous post and changed my bookmarks. Thanks.


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## Phaeton (18 Aug 2022)

mjr said:


> Well that's ruddy shopify and its failure to keep the same links live for you! WooCommerce is far better... Anyway, for some reason, the -uk has changed to -1 since I bought it, so I've edited the previous post and changed my bookmarks. Thanks.



The ones that arrive for me were the Gosund ones which apparently can be flashed with Tasmoto although I have no idea what that is, but they are bit cheaper than the ones you have bought I got 3 for £19 delivered although they have now gone up to £22


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## Pat "5mph" (18 Aug 2022)

ColinJ said:


> I was wearing long thermals top and bottom, cotton socks with big woolly socks over them, Ron Hill tracksters, long-sleeved top with a padded lumberjack shirt over the top, a buff round my neck, a second buff on my head, a big bushy bear on my face, and woolly mitts on my hands. I don't think I want to do much more than that in terms of clothing!
> 
> Maybe I will drape a lightweight duvet or blanket over me though. That would make a big difference.


Colin, I think you need to move about more, do some house work or something 
Not even me, here in Scotland, would wear all that, even sitting at the computer 
My central heating is always at 18C btw, and I'm not menopausal


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## jowwy (18 Aug 2022)

Pat 5mph said:


> Colin, I think you need to move about more, do some house work or something
> Not even me, here in Scotland, would wear all that, even sitting at the computer
> My central heating is always at 18C btw, and I'm not menopausal



But isnt he something like 3st soaking wet lol


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## ColinJ (18 Aug 2022)

Pat 5mph said:


> Colin, I think you need to move about more, do some house work or something
> Not even me, here in Scotland, would wear all that, even sitting at the computer
> My central heating is always at 18C btw, and I'm not menopausal


It is true that I spend many hours just sitting around on the computer, reading, or doing crosswords.

I don't the feel the cold as much if I have had some decent exercise, as long as I haven't over-exerted myself. Not a fan of housework though! I don't mind working on my bikes.



jowwy said:


> But isnt he something like 3st soaking wet lol


I wish! I am getting back down towards a more respectable cycling weight but am still currently 83 kg (13 st 1 lb).

I didn't feel the cold much when I was very overweight, but felt it a lot when I was skinny (about 74 kg or 11 st 9 lbs).


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## Phaeton (19 Aug 2022)

We were with British Gas, solar panels going in Monday, everybody said Octopus were the best company to be with for the tariff, as they offer the best on the export & there is cheaper overnight available. We were with them a couple of years ago & the account was still active, so I contacted them to switch our supply, somewhere process we ended up on their 12 months Fixed tariff, it looks like the things to come!






Quick contact with them & they have now put us on their variable, but logically it's going to be up there soon.


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## gzoom (19 Aug 2022)

^ I think I mentioned this a few pages, back, commercial electricity rates are at 70p/kWh+ already, bare in mind no one knows what Putin will do next. Turn off gas completely to Germany this winter, and we'll are going to be suffering black outs across the whole of Europe. As gas is what still powers over 50% of UK electricity generation. 

Its pretty clear the sooner everyone can get away from fossil fuel reliance the better, but its not going to happen quick enough to avoid the pain thats coming. Currently it feels like we are in the 'phoney war' stage, the sun is out, days are long, lights off, even hardly needing any hot water, so all these prices feel/look very abstract. In 4 months time things will be very different .

Not a huge amount anyone can do either, go back to burning logs/chopping wood.....even coal?? Or you find a way to increase your income along with lots of saving now.


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## cyberknight (19 Aug 2022)

as we get disability + carers allowance iu got a letter saying we might be eligible for an extra payment from the government,i dont hold out much hope but every little helps.
i still have to everyone to turn stuff off every day though as the family are clueless


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## jowwy (19 Aug 2022)

gzoom said:


> ^ I think I mentioned this a few pages, back, commercial electricity rates are at 70p/kWh+ already, bare in mind no one knows what Putin will do next. Turn off gas completely to Germany this winter, and we'll are going to be suffering black outs across the whole of Europe. As gas is what still powers over 50% of UK electricity generation.
> 
> Its pretty clear the sooner everyone can get away from fossil fuel reliance the better, but its not going to happen quick enough to avoid the pain thats coming. Currently it feels like we are in the 'phoney war' stage, the sun is out, days are long, lights off, even hardly needing any hot water, so all these prices feel/look very abstract. In 4 months time things will be very different .
> 
> *Not a huge amount anyone can do either, go back to burning logs/chopping wood.....even coal?? Or you find a way to increase your income along with lots of saving now.*



or find ways to cut your energy use....add solar power if you have the capital, switch off unused appliances, maybe add a solar panel or two out the back of the house/garden to charge phones, ipads, tools etc etc it all helps in the longer term. If you have the money to do it now


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## vickster (19 Aug 2022)

Ref solar… What about the millions of people who don’t live in a house and/or don’t have a garden and/or don’t own the property they live in?


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## jowwy (19 Aug 2022)

vickster said:


> Ref solar… What about the millions of people who don’t live in a house and/or don’t have a garden and/or don’t own the property they live in?



they can still have solar .......but can also do other things to lower their usage. Solar can by hung out or stuck to the window with window suckers to charge phones or ipads, they dont need to be fixed to roofs or led on the grass etc.....


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## jowwy (19 Aug 2022)

We have two freezers here at the moment, so we have decided to use up the food in the one and then switch it off until prices come back down, whenever that maybe......i also cook a lot outside in a gas pizza oven and gas plancher ( yes some people dont have that option i know).

Pizza yesterday in the oven took around 4/5mins each, but would take a lot longer in an oven and cost a lot more in electric. These are some of the things we have done to lower our electricity usage.


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## Regular.Cyclist (19 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> We were with British Gas, solar panels going in Monday, everybody said Octopus were the best company to be with for the tariff, as they offer the best on the export & there is cheaper overnight available. We were with them a couple of years ago & the account was still active, so I contacted them to switch our supply, somewhere process we ended up on their 12 months Fixed tariff, it looks like the things to come!
> 
> View attachment 657925
> 
> ...



Ouch!

I was fortunate and got onto a 2 year fixed deal just before things went totally crazy.

Got electricity at 28.82p/kWhr and 24.86p/day until late 2023.

Hoping we return to some normality in the world by then!


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## Phaeton (19 Aug 2022)

vickster said:


> Ref solar… What about the millions of people who don’t live in a house and/or don’t have a garden and/or don’t own the property they live in?



Comes back to choices, some which you can make others you can't, somebody was going off on one the other day saying people shouldn't work more than X miles from where they live & they should move closer, but that's not feasible, not everybody can afford to move each time they get a job. Just like not everybody is in a position to buy their own house, have a roof, have a garden, if you had a South, South West or West facing surface & were allowed to put some panels up, but getting a landlord to agree might be problematic.


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## gavroche (19 Aug 2022)

The answer to all this is to nationalise all utilities, that is Gas, electric and water. They should be run as an service to the people of the country and not as profit making companies paying dividends and all that. Utilities are basic needs to all of us, not luxuries.


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## jowwy (19 Aug 2022)

gavroche said:


> The answer to all this is to nationalise all utilities, that is Gas, electric and water. They should be run as an service to the people of the country and not as profit making companies paying dividends and all that. Utilities are basic needs to all of us, not luxuries.



Too political…..carfeul gavroche, you be shipped over to the other place lol


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## Milkfloat (19 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> We were with British Gas, solar panels going in Monday, everybody said Octopus were the best company to be with for the tariff, as they offer the best on the export & there is cheaper overnight available. We were with them a couple of years ago & the account was still active, so I contacted them to switch our supply, somewhere process we ended up on their 12 months Fixed tariff, it looks like the things to come!
> 
> View attachment 657925
> 
> ...



I recall reading that they put you on a different tariff until you/they are ready to feed in - I guess they pick an expensive one


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## PaulSB (19 Aug 2022)

gavroche said:


> The answer to all this is to nationalise all utilities, that is Gas, electric and water. They should be run as an service to the people of the country and not as profit making companies paying dividends and all that. Utilities are basic needs to all of us, not luxuries.



Exactly along with many other things which have been sold of to private sector to the detriment of society.


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## PaulSB (19 Aug 2022)

A couple of weeks back I spoke to an extremely helpful BG customer service person. He looked through my account, declared our initial readings on being moved to BG were incorrect. He gave me new readings and promised to get the account updated. Earlier in the week the new readings were applied and we are now £140 in credit.

He also organised an engineer to visit in September to fix the smart meters. I now believe this will happen.

I've been checking our daily consumption:

Gas: £0.07p
Electric: £1.79


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## Phaeton (19 Aug 2022)

This is somebody else's quote, it's now started to get very scary & very real


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## Pat "5mph" (19 Aug 2022)

Those standing charges are taking the proverbial!


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## jowwy (19 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> This is somebody else's quote, it's now started to get very scary & very real
> 
> View attachment 657948



But if on solar, you wouldnt be paying anywhere near that a month surely????


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## ianrauk (19 Aug 2022)

Pat 5mph said:


> Those standing charges are taking the proverbial!



They really are


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## Phaeton (19 Aug 2022)

jowwy said:


> But if on solar, you wouldnt be paying anywhere near that a month surely????



That's not mine, it was just somebody I was talking to it was to show where the standing charge & rate is likely to go.

What I don't understand about the standing charge, wasn't it 19p a day or something like that, their costs cannot of risen 350% in the last 6 months


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## chris-suffolk (19 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> That's not mine, it was just somebody I was talking to it was to show where the standing charge & rate is likely to go.
> 
> What I don't understand about the standing charge, wasn't it 19p a day or something like that, their costs cannot of risen 350% in the last 6 months



From what I read somewhere, the increase in standing charge is being used to pay for suppliers that go bust, and all the costs of picking up their customers.


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## gzoom (19 Aug 2022)

Solar is OK, but the two graphs sum up the issue. The first is our total home electricity use over 2021 (we charge an EV at home so overall usage is high), and the 2nd our solar generation profile over the year.












Essentially during winter, when the days are dark, cold sets in solar is next to useless. If I added our gas usage it would be an opposite plot to solar!!

Russia has won many a war because of the harsh winters........Putin turning off the gas supply to Europe this winter WILL cause black outs across all our cities. The current energy prices reflect the uncertainty that is coming.


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## rualexander (19 Aug 2022)

chris-suffolk said:


> From what I read somewhere, the increase in standing charge is being used to pay for suppliers that go bust, and all the costs of picking up their customers.



Yes that's what they say, but it doesn't add up.
Companies usually go begging for new customers with discounts and introductory deals etc
This time they get given thousands of new customers they can fleece, and they put the prices up saying it's to cover the costs of getting thousands of new customers. 🤔


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## jowwy (19 Aug 2022)

rualexander said:


> Yes that's what they say, but it doesn't add up.
> Companies usually go begging for new customers with discounts and introductory deals etc
> This time they get given thousands of new customers they can fleece, and they put the prices up saying it's to cover the costs of getting thousands of new customers. 🤔



But some of those new customers were already in credit and that has to be carried over too and bail out the former suppliers for all their costs…….its pants, but thats why the standard charge increased.


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## Phaeton (20 Aug 2022)

rualexander said:


> Yes that's what they say, but it doesn't add up.
> Companies usually go begging for new customers with discounts and introductory deals etc
> This time they get given thousands of new customers they can fleece, and they put the prices up saying it's to cover the costs of getting thousands of new customers. 🤔



I agree, something just doesn't make sense which might be my maths, if the standing charge has gone up from 20p to 50p per day per household, 30p extra profit per day per household, theres 28 million houses in the UK, that does not include flats, so they are making an extra £10million a day, how deep a hole dig the companies that failed dig?


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## Mo1959 (20 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I agree, something just doesn't make sense which might be my maths, if the standing charge has gone up from 20p to 50p per day per household, 30p extra profit per day per household, theres 28 million houses in the UK, that does not include flats, so they are making an extra £10million a day, how deep a hole dig the companies that failed dig?



Bit sneaky. They still get more money from us even if we are trying to be careful and not use as much


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## jowwy (20 Aug 2022)

Mo1959 said:


> Bit sneaky. They still get more money from us even if we are trying to be careful and not use as much



Yup…….ive cut my electric use considerably, but now the first £15 of the bill you cant save on


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## ebikeerwidnes (20 Aug 2022)

jowwy said:


> Yup…….ive cut my electric use considerably, but now the first £15 of the bill you cant save on



DO you think that maybe - just maybe - the energy companies may have noticed that???


and - if I was cynical - I might just think they were putting this bit up to protect their profits - especially if the gas prices drop again


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## midlife (20 Aug 2022)

Talking of standing charges, read the other day that for prepayment meters if there is no credit on them there is still the standing charge to pay.


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## jowwy (20 Aug 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> DO you think that maybe - just maybe - the energy companies may have noticed that???
> 
> 
> and - if I was cynical - I might just think they were putting this bit up to protect their profits - especially if the gas prices drop again



Yeh i totally agree….it is a way of protecting themselves, because even if you switch to solar now, they got 15 bucks of you just for having them as a back up each month


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## jowwy (20 Aug 2022)

midlife said:


> Talking of standing charges, read the other day that for prepayment meters if there is no credit on them there is still the standing charge to pay.



Well yes, cause the standard charges pays for maintenance and up keep of services


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## Phaeton (20 Aug 2022)

midlife said:


> Talking of standing charges, read the other day that for prepayment meters if there is no credit on them there is still the standing charge to pay.



Pretty sure that's always been the case, when my son moved into a rented house as he'd never been a customer with any provider before & the house already had a pre-payment meter they refused to replace it. First £10 he put on the first £8 disappeared as standing charge between the previous tenant leaving & him taking over, a call to them got it back.

But the other issue on pre-payments meters is they are usually for people with bed credit, no history etc. & if you think the rates we're complaining about are bad you should see some of the rates they have these people over the coals with & they don't use Vaseline.


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## jowwy (20 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Pretty sure that's always been the case, when my son moved into a rented house as he'd never been a customer with any provider before & the house already had a pre-payment meter they refused to replace it. First £10 he put on the first £8 disappeared as standing charge between the previous tenant leaving & him taking over, a call to them got it back.
> 
> But the other issue on pre-payments meters is they are usually for people with bed credit, no history etc. & if you think the rates we're complaining about are bad you should see some of the rates they have these people over the coals with & they don't use Vaseline.



They pay less on pre-payment meter, than i do on pay on receipt of bill….with Eon


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## PaulSB (22 Aug 2022)

I have always read the gas and electric meters monthly so I can submit readings and monitor supplier charges. Recently I've wanted to understand how much energy we are consuming and what might be done to reduce consumption. The meters are read at 07.00 each morning, both are non-working smart meters. The electric meter gives a reading in kWh so the cost calculation is simple as this is how we are billed. The gas meter though is calibrated to measure m3 but gas is also billed in kWh.

My understanding is to convert m3 to kWh one multiplies m3 x 3.6. Is this correct or am I barking up the wrong tree? If the meter shows consumption of 2 units this in kWh is 2 x 3.6 = 7.2.

Currently British Gas charge me 7.343p per kWh. Over the last 14 days we have used no more than 1 unit per day. My calculation is 1 (m3) x 3.6 (conversion) x 7.343 (cost) = 26.4p/day for gas.

We are two people with a combi boiler, average of one shower per day and a gas cooker. The CH is off. 26.4p/day seems ridiculously low and I don't want to drift in to a false sense of security.


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## DaveReading (22 Aug 2022)

PaulSB said:


> My understanding is to convert m3 to kWh one multiplies m3 x 3.6. Is this correct or am I barking up the wrong tree? If the meter shows consumption of 2 units this in kWh is 2 x 3.6 = 7.2.


No. 

Assuming that your meter is measuring m3, the supplier will multiply that by a nominal calorific value (which can vary, but usually around 39.2) and then divide (not multiply) by 3.6 to get kWh.

Strictly speaking there is also a standard "volume correction" of 1.02264 to apply as well, if you want to be super accurate.


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## PaulSB (22 Aug 2022)

DaveReading said:


> No.
> 
> Assuming that your meter is measuring m3, the supplier will multiply that by a nominal calorific value (which can vary, but usually around 39.2) and then divide (not multiply) by 3.6 to get kWh.
> 
> Strictly speaking there is also a standard "volume correction" of 1.02264 to apply as well, if you want to be super accurate.



Thank you. Just to be certain I've got this right. My meter readings show usage of 1 m3 per day. Therefore:

1 x 39.2 / 3.6 = 10.88kWh

Cost = 10.88 x 7.343p = 79.89p per day


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## Phaeton (22 Aug 2022)

PaulSB said:


> Thank you. Just to be certain I've got this right. My meter readings show usage of 1 m3 per day. Therefore:
> 
> 1 x 39.2 / 3.6 = 10.88kWh
> 
> Cost = 10.88 x 7.343p = 79.89p per day



Plus the standing charge


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## PaulSB (22 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Plus the standing charge



Oh yes, I haven't forgotten that.......sadly. It's only consumption I can control which is why I'm concerned to learn more and monitor it closely. If there is one benefit from this whole sorry mess people like me who should have been more aware for decades have suddenly become so.


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## Alien8 (22 Aug 2022)

The actual conversion is:

Metered volume × metric conversion factor × daily calorific value × volume correction ÷ 3.6 = kilowatt hours (kWh) used.

metric conversion factor = 2.83 (meter type imperial) or 1 (meter type metric).
daily calorific value = between 37.5 to 43.0 (you can get actual CV data by date/region here)
volume correction = 1.02264

Which for you means:

Metered volume × CV × 1.02264 ÷ 3.6 = kWh used.

If you assume a nominal CV of 39.2: 1m3 = 11.135 kWh


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## ClichéGuevara (22 Aug 2022)

I think you can roughly approximate it to half a vital organ a day, or your first born per annum.


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## fossyant (22 Aug 2022)

The calculations are on your bill as well. These d change slightly every couple of mnths - noticed the calorific value has changed for the gas.


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## jowwy (22 Aug 2022)

fossyant said:


> The calculations are on your bill as well. These d change slightly every couple of mnths - *noticed the calorific value has changed for the gas.*



doesnt it change due to temperature of winter/summer???


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## fossyant (22 Aug 2022)

jowwy said:


> doesnt it change due to temperature of winter/summer???



It does indeed. Easy to pick up off the bill and change your spreadsheet. 👍


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## Phaeton (22 Aug 2022)

PaulSB said:


> Oh yes, I haven't forgotten that.......sadly. It's only consumption I can control which is why I'm concerned to learn more and monitor it closely. If there is one benefit from this whole sorry mess people like me who should have been more aware for decades have suddenly become so.



I think you are completely right, I have not monitored our gas/electricity ever & I suspect the vast majority of people don't, but I do think these high prices are going to focus peoples minds. Unfortunately for some it will only after they have received the huge bill, that they may not be able to pay.

I've always been the one to go around switching the lights off wen the kids were little, but never been bothered about things on standby, I've been working out in the garden under a undercover area for the last few months using a laptop, but the desktop had always been switched on upstair in the office/bedroom along with 2 VoIP phones, why? no logical reason so they have been unplugged. I'm now looking for things that can be turned off & only turned on when needed


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## mjr (22 Aug 2022)

gzoom said:


> As gas is what still powers over 50% of UK electricity generation.


42% over the last year, actually. Between 2012 and 2020, it actually halved on a pretty much straight line trend, but the reduction has stopped since then, so your general point still stands: we aren't moving to renewables fast enough to prevent problems this winter.


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## presta (25 Aug 2022)

There could have been another 15-20 million homes insulated by now .....


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## jowwy (26 Aug 2022)

Energy Cap risen to £3549......thats more than my yearly mortgage payment


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## Illaveago (26 Aug 2022)

What is the point of Ofgem when they can't do anything to control the price of energy except to make sure that the bosses and shareholders make a profit !


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## gzoom (26 Aug 2022)

jowwy said:


> Energy Cap risen to £3549......thats more than my yearly mortgage payment



Looking at our gas usage last winter, am estimating our gas bill for November to February will be £2.5-3k, versus £550 last year!!!

Ofcourse we will reduce the amount we use, but you cannot get around the massive jump in cost.


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## jowwy (26 Aug 2022)

gzoom said:


> Looking at our gas usage last winter, am estimating our gas bill for November to February will be £2.5-3k, versus £550 last year!!!
> 
> Ofcourse we will reduce the amount we use, but you cannot get around the massive jump in cost.



so you think you will be paying £700 per month just for gas over a 4mth period?? approx.....thats considerabley higher than the price cap


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## Phaeton (26 Aug 2022)

Illaveago said:


> What is the point of Ofgem when they can't do anything to control the price of energy except to make sure that the bosses and shareholders make a profit !



From my experience you could expand that to Ofgem, Ofcom, Ofwat over the years I've dealt with them all & do not not feel they are on the consumers side, you also have to question the fact that a UK run resolution agency paid for by the UK taxpayer is now operated out of India.


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## gzoom (26 Aug 2022)

jowwy said:


> so you think you will be paying £700 per month just for gas over a 4mth period?? approx.....thats considerabley higher than the price cap



That's based on our gas usage last winter at 2.6p/kWh and the new cap at 15p/kWh.

Luckily we can afford it, and no one has forced us to live in a 5/6 bed detached, with leaky windows and poor insulation.

We were planning on doing some moderate house renovations but the building work wouldn't have dramatically improved energy efficiency of the house. The way things are going am now working the feasibility of a demolish and rebuild to new building reg standards/insulation etc as the most sensible approach looking 10-20 years ahead.


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## mjr (26 Aug 2022)

jowwy said:


> so you think you will be paying £700 per month just for gas over a 4mth period?? approx.....thats considerabley higher than the price cap


That is the nature of the headline figure being the average household use: many will be higher and many will be lower.

Really the cap is on the unit and daily charges but press officers and reporters prefer thousands of pounds to numbers of pence.


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## mjr (26 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> From my experience you could expand that to Ofgem, Ofcom, Ofwat over the years I've dealt with them all & do not not feel they are on the consumers side, you also have to question the fact that a UK run resolution agency paid for by the UK taxpayer is now operated out of India.


Any serious reply to that will get us sent to the NACA's yard, so let me suggest that maybe India is simply seeking to repay the UK's excellent past conflict resolution?


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## jowwy (26 Aug 2022)

gzoom said:


> That's based on our gas usage last winter at 2.6p/kWh and the new cap at 15p/kWh.
> 
> Luckily we can afford it, and no one has forced us to live in a 5/6 bed detached, with leaky windows and poor insulation.
> 
> We were planning on doing some moderate house renovations but the building work wouldn't have dramatically improved energy efficiency of the house. The way things are going am now working the feasibility of a demolish and rebuild to new building reg standards/insulation etc as the most sensible approach looking 10-20 years ahead.



is it 15p/kwh.....its currently 7.46, expecting the 75% rise to be 13.05, so not much but a little less then the 15p.

I know that doesnt reduce it by much, but every little helps


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## jowwy (26 Aug 2022)

I just checked Eon Next V21, current fixed price tariff for 12mths. Thats before the current price cap increase......


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## si_c (26 Aug 2022)

jowwy said:


> I just checked Eon Next V21, current fixed price tariff for 12mths. Thats before the current price cap increase......
> 
> View attachment 658723



Which is why nobody is recommending going for a fixed tariff right now, that's close to double the level from the October increase at a rough guess.


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## jowwy (26 Aug 2022)

si_c said:


> Which is why nobody is recommending going for a fixed tariff right now, that's close to double the level from the October increase at a rough guess.



it is indeed.......the thing is they were offering that from april and i bet someone fixed at that price due to what was coming down the road in october/april


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## cyberknight (26 Aug 2022)

vickster said:


> Ref solar… What about the millions of people who don’t live in a house and/or don’t have a garden and/or don’t own the property they live in?



Add to that those who don't have the capital to invest ,no disposable income or already in debt due to price rises


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## Alex321 (26 Aug 2022)

jowwy said:


> so you think you will be paying £700 per month just for gas over a 4mth period?? approx.....thats considerabley higher than the price cap



The price cap is per unit, not an overall maximum. When it is quoted as above, that is what the average bill would be under the new cap.


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## jowwy (26 Aug 2022)

Alex321 said:


> The price cap is per unit, not an overall maximum. When it is quoted as above, that is what the average bill would be under the new cap.



Yeh i know that, but its still not quite 15p/kwh……


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## gzoom (26 Aug 2022)

si_c said:


> Which is why nobody is recommending going for a fixed tariff right now, that's close to double the level from the October increase at a rough guess.



The noises suggest the 'cap' will hit £1/kWh for electricity potentially next year.......so fixed at 80p/kWh will seem cheap if that comes true, and I suspect we'll be using candles again.


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## si_c (26 Aug 2022)

gzoom said:


> The noises suggest the 'cap' will hit £1/kWh for electricity potentially next year.......so fixed at 80p/kWh will seem cheap if that comes true, and I suspect we'll be using candles again.



If it hits that I'll be modding a stationary bike to power the lights.


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## fossyant (26 Aug 2022)

si_c said:


> If it hits that I'll be modding a stationary bike to power the lights.



I'll certainly be in the office three days a week. About time electric car drivers paid the same rate too. Can't subsidise them when people can't heat homes.


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## fossyant (26 Aug 2022)

My neice is on a prepay meter in a rented home. She's struggling now, going to be crucified come October


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## wiggydiggy (26 Aug 2022)

fossyant said:


> I'll certainly be in the office three days a week. About time electric car drivers paid the same rate too. Can't subsidise them when people can't heat homes.



I wonder if thats an option for those us working from home, go back to the office. Maybe it's all a big conspiracy
by putting up energy prices to get us all back in and buying coffee 

Personally though I know my office has been decomisioned and there are bookable desks if I want to go in, I might try and work out the cost of a days work at home but I suspect it's still cheaper for me not to travel in (esp when including getting travel time back).


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## fossyant (26 Aug 2022)

wiggydiggy said:


> I wonder if thats an option for those us working from home, go back to the office. Maybe it's all a big conspiracy
> by putting up energy prices to get us all back in and buying coffee
> 
> Personally though I know my office has been decomisioned and there are bookable desks if I want to go in, I might try and work out the cost of a days work at home but I suspect it's still cheaper for me not to travel in (esp when including getting travel time back).



I'm riding in, so it's no cost in fuel. We're supposed to do at least two days, possibly three, but will aim for three. TBH I don't need to heat the house during the day. It's electric we will be really cutting back on.


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## wiggydiggy (26 Aug 2022)

fossyant said:


> I'm riding in, so it's no cost in fuel. We're supposed to do at least two days, possibly three, but will aim for three. TBH I don't need to heat the house during the day. It's electric we will be really cutting back on.



I've just moved and and hoping the same, the new house seems to retain a lot more heat than the old. I'll be in only the one room anyway come work time.

As knew I was moving I've been lurking on this thread a while to absorb all the tips for saving in here. First things first are smart plugs all around I think


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## jowwy (26 Aug 2022)

wiggydiggy said:


> I've just moved and and hoping the same, the new house seems to retain a lot more heat than the old. I'll be in only the one room anyway come work time.
> 
> As knew I was moving I've been lurking on this thread a while to absorb all the tips for saving in here. First things first are smart plugs all around I think



Ive worked out, that my home office runs on 100watts an hour………thats a laptop, 2nd screen, tv and sky q mini. So 700watts for the working day or 21p. Theres an average of 23 working days in a month. So around £4.83 a month.

Theres 4.54 litres to a gallon (aprox) on current prices 1.80 for diesel thats £8.17 a gallon.

So for me to get to work and back by car for one day is £4.92….i’ll stick to working from home.


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## wiggydiggy (26 Aug 2022)

jowwy said:


> Ive worked out, that my home office runs on 100watts an hour………thats a laptop, 2nd screen, tv and sky q mini. So 700watts for the working day or 21p. Theres an average of 23 working days in a month. So around £4.83 a month.
> 
> Theres 3.89 litres to a gallon (aprox) on current prices 1.80 for diesel thats £7 a gallon.
> 
> So for me to get to work and back by car for one day is £4.20…….i’ll stick to working from home.



Cheers, thats a very similar setup to me so so I'll work out my 100 watts per hour cost. I also have a small (electric) oil filled radiator but even if I ran it all day I doubt it'd make a big difference.


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## Regular.Cyclist (26 Aug 2022)

jowwy said:


> Theres 3.89 litres to a gallon (aprox) on current prices 1.80 for diesel thats £7 a gallon.


There are 4.54 litres in a UK gallon and 3.78 litres in a USA gallon. Not sure where 3.89 comes from.


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## Salty seadog (26 Aug 2022)

fossyant said:


> My neice is on a prepay meter in a rented home. She's struggling now, going to be crucified come October



My sister is on prepay too. Its heartwarming that she is charged at a higher rate just because she has the audacity to have very little money and on top of that is not able to smooth the bills over the year as per direct debit. 

This country really cares about those in need and that makes me proud.


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## jowwy (26 Aug 2022)

Regular.Cyclist said:


> There are 4.54 litres in a UK gallon and 3.78 litres in a USA gallon. Not sure where 3.89 comes from.



Its what google came up with….but i did say approx. Original post now amended. I dont want the usual clowns complaining yet again about every thread i post on.


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## jowwy (26 Aug 2022)

Salty seadog said:


> My sister is on prepay too. Its heartwarming that she is charged at a higher rate just because she has the audacity to have very little money and on top of that is not able to smooth the bills over the year as per direct debit.
> 
> This country really cares about those in need and that makes me proud.



If you pay on receipt of bill, you pay even more than pre-payment meter customers


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## PaulSB (26 Aug 2022)

How can someone not know how many litres to the gallon? 🤣🤣🤣


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## jowwy (26 Aug 2022)

PaulSB said:


> How can someone not know how many litres to the gallon? 🤣🤣🤣



Why would everyone need to know…..some of us dont really care. But its nice of you to add the sum of nothing to this thread, other then to take the michael….yet again.


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## PaulSB (26 Aug 2022)

jowwy said:


> *Why would everyone need to know*…..some of us dont really care. But its nice of you to add the sum of nothing to this thread, other then to take the michael….yet again.



Well it helps when calculating the price per gallon of a product priced in litres.


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## jowwy (26 Aug 2022)

PaulSB said:


> Well it helps when calculating the price per gallon of a product priced in litres.



Again, still dont care………and again adding the sum of nothing to the thread, but just take the michael and cause arguments. Which seems to be your MO in every thread i post in.


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## vickster (26 Aug 2022)

PaulSB said:


> Well it helps when calculating the price per gallon of a product priced in litres.



Why would I need to do that? I just buy petrol when I need it, seeking out the most competitive litre price. Given it’s sold in litres now in the Uk. I don’t pay much attention to mpg, my car will use what it uses for the journeys that I do


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## midlife (26 Aug 2022)

Just had 1000 litres heating oil delivered, will try and eek it out for as long as possible, even then I guess the price will have gone up by the time the tank needs refilling.


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## Regular.Cyclist (26 Aug 2022)

I got my latest statement through today from my energy provider (both gas and electricity). Tariff is fixed until the end of 2023.

To say it’s confusing is an understatement. They list three previous bills which they say they have revised and credited various amounts. I can only assume that they refer to bills paid before the recent merger with another company as I don’t recognise the bill numbers.

Anyway it tells me I am a smidge over £400 in credit and paying £85 a month. Praying they stay afloa!


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## midlife (26 Aug 2022)

Is that £85 a month for dual fuel ? Blimey that’s cheap.


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## Regular.Cyclist (26 Aug 2022)

midlife said:


> Is that £85 a month for dual fuel ? Blimey that’s cheap.


Yes, for dual fuel.


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## DaveReading (26 Aug 2022)

jowwy said:


> Ive worked out, that my home office runs on 100watts an hour………thats a laptop, 2nd screen, tv and sky q mini. So 700watts for the working day or 21p.


You don't mean watts - kilowatt-hours, maybe ?


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## jowwy (26 Aug 2022)

DaveReading said:


> You don't mean watts - kilowatt-hours, maybe ?



How many watts is 1kwh ????……..its 1000watts for a kwh, my office runs at 100 watts which is. 1/10th of a kwh…..so 700watts is 7/10ths of a kwh. a kwh Electricity is currently 29.7p, so thats 3p per 100watts.


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## Regular.Cyclist (26 Aug 2022)

jowwy said:


> How many watts is 1kwh ????



1,000 watts for one hour is 1 kilowatt hour.


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## jowwy (26 Aug 2022)

Regular.Cyclist said:


> 1,000 watts for one hour is 1 kilowatt hour.



Thats what i said…..


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## Regular.Cyclist (26 Aug 2022)

jowwy said:


> Thats what i said…..



Yes you did…………In your edit after I posted my reply.


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## jowwy (26 Aug 2022)

Regular.Cyclist said:


> Yes you did…………In your edit after I posted my reply.



My edit was to change the e in Electricity……….maybe you posted while i was changing the capital E


but let me add even more complication to the workings…..50% of my office is run on solar power, so its actually costing me £2.43 a month to run my home office. So that would mean, 2 trips to the office, is approx 2mths worth of home office costs.

Ps please not i stated approx, im not getting out the calculator, slide rule, abbacus etc etc


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## Regular.Cyclist (26 Aug 2022)

jowwy said:


> My edit was to change the e in Electricity……….maybe you posted while i was changing the capital E


The quote in my reply was the complete, unedited, text in you post at the time I responded. Nothing added, nothing removed.


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## jowwy (26 Aug 2022)

Regular.Cyclist said:


> The quote in my reply was the complete, unedited, text in you post at the time I responded. Nothing added, nothing removed.



So, it must of been while i clicked on the edit button, as i was squaring it my head before i typed. Not a problem, we both got the same answer……


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## wiggydiggy (26 Aug 2022)

1 more thing I learnt when moving - Shell aren't taking on any new customers. As they are the supplier currently I can have it transferred into my name but if it wasn't, they wouldn't have took me on. Don't know if thats the same for other companies.


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## DaveReading (27 Aug 2022)

jowwy said:


> How many watts is 1kwh ????……..its 1000watts for a kwh, my office runs at 100 watts which is. 1/10th of a kwh…..so 700watts is 7/10ths of a kwh. a kwh Electricity is currently 29.7p, so thats 3p per 100watts.


A watt (or kilowatt, come to that) is a measure of power (i.e. how *rapidly* you are using energy), not how *much *you have used altogether. 

In order to derive the latter (which is what determines how much your bill is), you need to multiply by the length of time, and it's the result of that calculation that is expressed in watt-hours (Wh) or kilowatt-hours (kWh).


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## jowwy (27 Aug 2022)

DaveReading said:


> A watt (or kilowatt, come to that) is a measure of power (i.e. how *rapidly* you are using energy), not how *much *you have used altogether.
> 
> In order to derive the latter (which is what determines how much your bill is), you need to multiply by the length of time, and it's the result of that calculation that is expressed in watt-hours (Wh) or kilowatt-hours (kWh).



My calculation works and is derived directly from energy monitor on my desk…….i use 100watts per hour…..so over 7hrs i use 700watts and therefore 7/10ths of a kilowatt hour

7/10ths of a kilowatt hour is 21p……


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## Phaeton (27 Aug 2022)

PaulSB said:


> How can someone not know how many litres to the gallon? 🤣🤣🤣



It's a really interesting question but completely off topic, but logically why would you need to? 

A gallon as far as petrol/diesel is concerned is irrelevant, we have been buying in litres since January 1995, over 27 years ago, at what point will the UK population let go of the concept of MPG (miles per gallon)? Surely we should have adopted MPL (miles per Litre) but maybe that number is so small the automotive industry don't want us to use that, the other option appears to be litres per 100km, which as we do not use km it would be pointless, so maybe it should be Litres per 100 miles.

But anyway back to the original question, I don't know the answer, but I use 4.5 as a guide, just like I use 5/8th converting km to m.


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## cougie uk (27 Aug 2022)

I do think people would drive better if the car displayed in pence per mile rather than the MPG or whatever.
It'd be interesting to see if the fuel price rises have reduced the average speeds on the motorways. We must have this data somewhere.

Oh - we do. Historically anyway. 

2018 Avg speed 68 mph. 
2019 69 mph. 
2020 70 mph.


Just from using the motorway I'd be suprised if its that high nowadays.


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## Phaeton (27 Aug 2022)

cougie uk said:


> It'd be interesting to see if the fuel price rises have reduced the average speeds on the motorways.


I doubt it very much, I get the impression people have now decided that the quicker they drive, the sooner they get there, the less fuel they use


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## ColinJ (27 Aug 2022)

jowwy said:


> i use 100watts per hour


Strictly speaking you use 100 W _for_ an hour so you use 100 Wh _per_ hour, but all of that is nitpicking - we know what you mean!

As for units... Let's finally switch the entire world over to the metric system. I was using it at school 55 years ago and never dreamt that the nation would still be using daft imperial units when I became a pensioner!


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## SpokeyDokey (27 Aug 2022)

cougie uk said:


> I do think people would drive better if the car displayed in pence per mile rather than the MPG or whatever.
> It'd be interesting to see if the fuel price rises have reduced the average speeds on the motorways. We must have this data somewhere.
> 
> Oh - we do. Historically anyway.
> ...



No idea how that is calculated - does it include HGV's etc or just cars?

Also depends on which motorway. From where I live (15 mins to J36 M6) and heading north if I were to maintain a steady 70mph there would be a constant stream of cars going by at well above 70mph.


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## SpokeyDokey (27 Aug 2022)

ColinJ said:


> As for units... Let's finally switch the entire world over to the metric system. I was using it at school 55 years ago and never dreamt that the nation would still be using daft imperial units when I became a pensioner!



Yes - we should have made the switch when money went decimal.


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## DaveReading (27 Aug 2022)

jowwy said:


> so over 7hrs i use 700watts and therefore 7/10ths of a kilowatt hour


OK, I give up ...


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## Regular.Cyclist (27 Aug 2022)

ColinJ said:


> As for units... Let's finally switch the entire world over to the metric system. I was using it at school 55 years ago and never dreamt that the nation would still be using daft imperial units when I became a pensioner!


I run, as well as cycle, and my GPS watch is set to metric thus giving pace per km and distance In kilometres 

I took part in a half marathon last weekend (21.1km / 13.1 miles) in which the distance markers were only every mile!

At least there are some metric events e.g. parkrun, 10k etc.


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## Mo1959 (27 Aug 2022)

Regular.Cyclist said:


> I run, as well as cycle, and my GPS watch is set to metric thus giving pace per km and distance In kilometres
> 
> I took part in a half marathon last weekend (21.1km / 13.1 miles) in which the distance markers were only every mile!
> 
> At least there are some metric events e.g. parkrun, 10k etc.



I'm afraid I'm a dinosaur  Definitely still drive, cycle and run in miles. Running a kilometre just means nothing to me. I like to see how many minutes per mile for running.


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## Regular.Cyclist (27 Aug 2022)

cougie uk said:


> I do think people would drive better if the car displayed in pence per mile rather than the MPG or whatever.
> It'd be interesting to see if the fuel price rises have reduced the average speeds on the motorways. We must have this data somewhere.
> 
> Oh - we do. Historically anyway.
> ...



Given the way some of the Range Rover drivers accelerate and race around locally, I suspect high fuel costs are having little impact on the behaviour of some.


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## midlife (27 Aug 2022)

Quick bit of pencil and paper work on the upcoming increases, as I pay for my house as well as put towards daughters (all electric) flat then that's near on a grand a month...... Going to have to be some changes at home


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## fossyant (27 Aug 2022)

midlife said:


> Quick bit of pencil and paper work on the upcoming increases, as I pay for my house as well as put towards daughters (all electric) flat then that's near on a grand a month...... Going to have to be some changes at home



That is scary. My current use is about £230 a month but paying £330. Cost will easily jump to £330 in October. Scottish Power have kindly told me they will let me know the charges in September


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## jowwy (27 Aug 2022)

DaveReading said:


> OK, I give up ...



If i run my office at 100watts for 7hrs……how many kilowatt hours have i used???


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## midlife (27 Aug 2022)

I think lots of people are going to find the price hike for energy scary... We bought this house for the garden and accepted that the 1930's house that came with it would cost a bit more to heat than a modern house. Ouch!


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## winjim (27 Aug 2022)

ColinJ said:


> Strictly speaking you use 100 W _for_ an hour so you use 100 Wh _per_ hour, but all of that is nitpicking - we know what you mean!
> 
> As for units... Let's finally switch the entire world over to the metric system. I was using it at school 55 years ago and never dreamt that the nation would still be using daft imperial units when I became a pensioner!



Kilowatt hour is a nonsense unit anyway, not to mention kilowatt hours per year. How many time dimensions do you want? Can we not just use Joules and Watts?


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## lazybloke (27 Aug 2022)

jowwy said:


> If i run my office at 100watts for 7hrs……how many kilowatt hours have i used???




An hour at 100 Watts consumes a total of 0.1 kilowatthour of energy.

7 hours would be 0.7 kilowatthours, aka 0.7 units.

Can also measure energy as ergs , btu, calories, etc etc; apologies to @ColinJ for use of non-SI units


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## Salty seadog (27 Aug 2022)

> Thankfully this horrendous price rise is coming in wintertime when I don't need to have my fan on to keep me cool in all this heat.


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## Regular.Cyclist (27 Aug 2022)

winjim said:


> Kilowatt hour is a nonsense unit anyway, not to mention kilowatt hours per year. How many time dimensions do you want? Can we not just use Joules and Watts?



How would simply using joules or watts relate to quantifying and billing use?

Say a 2,200 watt kettle takes 6 minutes to boil. That would equate to 0.22 kilowatt hours and can be used for billing. Both the 2,200 watts and the 6 minutes are meaningless to your electricity supplier.


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## winjim (27 Aug 2022)

Regular.Cyclist said:


> How would simply using joules or watts relate to quantifying and billing use?
> 
> Say a 2,200 watt kettle takes 6 minutes to boil. That would equate to 0.22 kilowatt hours and can be used for billing. Both the 2,200 watts and the 6 minutes are meaningless to your electricity supplier.



A kilowatt hour is energy divided by time multiplied by time. That means the time dimensions cancel and it's a unit of energy, which in most situations is expressed in Joules.

1kWh = 3.6MJ

You could do it in electron volts I suppose, I've always wanted an excuse to use the yotta prefix.

1kWh = 22.5YeV


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## winjim (27 Aug 2022)

I suspect the reason is that a kilowatt hour sounds like a lot less than a megajoule. It's a bit more palatable to the customer, as well as relateable because historically we used to compare things to light bulbs and single bar electric fires which we know the wattage of.


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## PaulSB (27 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> It's a really interesting question but completely off topic, but logically why would you need to?
> 
> A gallon as far as petrol/diesel is concerned is irrelevant, we have been buying in litres since January 1995, over 27 years ago, at what point will the UK population let go of the concept of MPG (miles per gallon)? Surely we should have adopted MPL (miles per Litre) but maybe that number is so small the automotive industry don't want us to use that, the other option appears to be litres per 100km, which as we do not use km it would be pointless, so maybe it should be Litres per 100 miles.
> 
> But anyway back to the original question, I don't know the answer, but I use 4.5 as a guide, just like I use 5/8th converting km to m.



I fully understand your point and I agree it is an interesting question. In relation to your first sentence one would only need the knowledge for the calculation being made by the poster I was responding to.

More broadly it seems we do still need the ability to convert as we have a daft mix of imperial and metric units in use. There's also the question of people of my age, 68, educated in imperial and lived through the change.

I can easily handle weights, volumes, small measurements etc in daily life but distance, mpg and similar mean nothing. I always ride, drive, walk in miles and mph. I can't explain why. When I cycle tour on the continent I run my Wahoo in imperial to give me meaningful information and a small Cateye in metric showing distance travelled - this I use for when navigating. If the road sign says Calais 20km I check the Cateye, mentally note the reading and use that to gauge how quickly I'm approaching the next town. Bonkers. I know but it's how I cope.

It should have been an all or nothing change.


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## jowwy (27 Aug 2022)

Whats any of this got to do with energy bill increases???? Typical of some to derail a thread into how they want it.


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## Phaeton (27 Aug 2022)

jowwy said:


> Whats any of this got to do with energy bill increases???? Typical of some to derail a thread into how they want it.



Which bit? The units of electricity or my off topic post about fuel & how we use the wrong unit(s), I did point out it was OT & @PaulSB was just an answer. But in my defence it was related to your comments about how much it would cost you to drive to work.


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## PaulSB (27 Aug 2022)

10 days back I used historical billed data for July '20 to Jun '21 to calculate my expected cost for '22/23. This came out at £2594 which in the current climate I viewed as "reasonable."

This morning I put in the new costs from October 1st. The period total now comes out at £4394. 

One of my sons enjoys, I do mean this word, supported living in the community. He shares a house with three other men. Including a carer there are always five adults, often six, in a five bed house 24/7.

Currently Scottish Power forecast the annual bill at £7764 *prior* to the new cap. At 80% increase from October of £4228 the total will become £11992.

That's £12000 for one household occupied by four men unable to care for themselves and entirely dependent on benefits.

I'm waiting to see what the government does for the vulnerable in our society. On the past 12 years it will be nothing.


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## PaulSB (27 Aug 2022)

jowwy said:


> Whats any of this got to do with energy bill increases???? Typical of some to derail a thread into how they want it.



I replied to an interesting point raised by @Phaeton. An enjoyable and informative feature of CC threads is the frequency with which they throw up OT questions and points. In my experience this directly reflects real life.

It was a discussion developing out of your reference to and inaccurate calculation of the cost of WFH compared with being office based.


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## jowwy (27 Aug 2022)

PaulSB said:


> I replied to an interesting point raised by @Phaeton. An enjoyable and informative feature of CC threads is the frequency with which they throw up OT questions and points. In my experience this directly reflects real life.
> 
> It was a discussion developing out of your reference to and inaccurate calculation of the cost of WFH compared with being office based.



No inaccurate calculation fella…..i said approx, i cant help it if my abacus wasnt working correctly


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## PaulSB (27 Aug 2022)

jowwy said:


> No inaccurate calculation fella…..i said approx, i cant help it if my abacus wasnt working correctly



So you pluck a meaningless figure out of the air, blame Google for the inaccuracy and come up with a 17% error and write this off as inaccurate?


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## Ming the Merciless (27 Aug 2022)

Regular.Cyclist said:


> How would simply using joules or watts relate to quantifying and billing use?
> 
> Say a 2,200 watt kettle takes 6 minutes to boil. That would equate to 0.22 kilowatt hours and can be used for billing. Both the 2,200 watts and the 6 minutes are meaningless to your electricity supplier.



It would be 792 kJ of energy used which is far from meaningless and can be used to calculate billing.


----------



## stephec (27 Aug 2022)

ColinJ said:


> And... an electric toothbrush charger!



Good god man have you no shame, think about the ozone! 😂


----------



## stephec (27 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> The wife & I got into a bit of an argument at lunch time, I was making a sandwich & she was deciding what to have, she's looking in the pantry. She pulls out a box of eggs, puts them on the counter, turns on the halogen hob on full, walks away to then take the pan out of the drawer, then goes into the utility where the fridge is, opens the fridge door, takes out the margarine & mushrooms, leaves the door open & comes back into the kitchen puts the pan on the hob, puts the margarine in the pan. Cracks & beats the eggs, by this time the fridge is bleeping, she cuts the mushrooms, I know I should have kept my mouth shut but just couldn't, so I asked why she had turned on the hob before getting the pan, why she had left the fridge door open.
> 
> I went outside to eat my sandwich.



I would have done the same as you. 😊


----------



## Regular.Cyclist (27 Aug 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> It would be 792 kJ of energy used which is far from meaningless and can be used to calculate billing.



The downside is that method generates large numbers very quickly requiring more digits to be displayed on the meter. 

My, rather modest, annual electricity consumption is estimated at 2,178 kWh. 7,840,800 kj begins to look like telephone numbers 😂.


----------



## presta (27 Aug 2022)

winjim said:


> Kilowatt hour is a nonsense unit anyway, not to mention kilowatt hours per year. How many time dimensions do you want? Can we not just use Joules and Watts?



It irks me a bit too, but the fact is many people don't understand the bills they're already getting, let alone the difference between power and energy, or that a watt is a joule per second. In your head, it's quicker to find the cost of a 100W lamp for an hour at 50p/kWh, than at 14p/MJ because you don't have to convert between hours and seconds.

A bit like miles or kilometres per hour rather than metres per second.


----------



## presta (27 Aug 2022)

Mo1959 said:


> I'm afraid I'm a dinosaur  Definitely still drive, cycle and run in miles. Running a kilometre just means nothing to me. I like to see how many minutes per mile for running.



I'm not anti-metric, I'd be quite happy to use kilometres, but I'm not going to make things inconvenient by using different units to all the road signs.


----------



## presta (27 Aug 2022)

jowwy said:


> My calculation works and is derived directly from energy monitor on my desk……*.i use 100watts per hour…..so over 7hrs i use 700watts and therefore 7/10ths of a kilowatt hour*
> 
> 7/10ths of a kilowatt hour is 21p……



As @DaveReading says, watts are a measure of power, ie: rate of change of energy, and watt hours are energy. You are muddling the two at random.

_"I use 100watts per hour…..so over 7hrs I use 700watt *hours *and therefore 7/10ths of a kilowatt hour"_


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## jowwy (27 Aug 2022)

presta said:


> As @DaveReading says, watts are a measure of power, ie: rate of change of energy, and watt hours are energy. You are muddling the two at random.
> 
> _"I use 100watts per hour…..so over 7hrs I use 700watt *hours *and therefore 7/10ths of a kilowatt hour"_



No im not…..and everyone else gets it, just the usual nitpicking from some


----------



## winjim (27 Aug 2022)

presta said:


> It irks me a bit too, but the fact is many people don't understand the bills they're already getting, let alone the difference between power and energy, or that a watt is a joule per second. In your head, it's quicker to find the cost of a 100W lamp for an hour at 50p/kWh, than at 14p/MJ because you don't have to convert between hours and seconds.
> 
> A bit like miles or kilometres per hour rather than metres per second.



Yeah I know, it's more something I find funny to be a smartarse about really.


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## Regular.Cyclist (27 Aug 2022)

jowwy said:


> No im not…..and everyone else gets it, just the usual nitpicking from some



To be fair you are confusing terms, however the confusion isn’t uncommon and people get the gist of what is being said.


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## Ming the Merciless (27 Aug 2022)

Regular.Cyclist said:


> The downside is that method generates large numbers very quickly requiring more digits to be displayed on the meter.
> 
> My, rather modest, annual electricity consumption is estimated at 2,178 kWh. 7,840,800 kj begins to look like telephone numbers 😂.



Well you just change that to 7840mJ


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## Regular.Cyclist (27 Aug 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Well you just change that to 7840mJ



unfortunately it’s never going to happen as it would require every meter to be changed, or at least reconfigured. 

Highly off topic but you see the mess they are making for the rollout of smart meters. 

The current systems works despite it not being perfect.


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## winjim (27 Aug 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Well you just change that to 7840mJ



7.841 × 10^9 kg m^2 s^-2


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## ColinJ (27 Aug 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Well you just change that to 7840mJ



Those are *m*illiJoules - you want *M*egaJoules - MJ!


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## Ming the Merciless (28 Aug 2022)

ColinJ said:


> Those are *m*illiJoules - you want *M*egaJoules - MJ!



Powered by Pendants 😂


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## fossyant (28 Aug 2022)

Jesus H Christ, this topic has gone way off.

I've just ordered a couple of plug in adapters to monitor electric to see whats using the most power. Given the 50p per unit coming in, some 'nice to haves' are being switched off. We've already cut electric use by half. Well worth monthly monitoring of use with a spreadsheet. Ive only got data from February, so be interesting to see the increases over winter.

My nephew's employer, well known chef, just had a £23k bill for one quarter, for his unit where they prep food for events, not the 4 or 5 restaurants. He initially thought there was an extra zero.


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## Ming the Merciless (28 Aug 2022)

fossyant said:


> use with a spreadsheet.



That’ll be half your electric use


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## jowwy (28 Aug 2022)

fossyant said:


> Jesus H Christ, this topic has gone way off.
> 
> I've just ordered a couple of plug in adapters to monitor electric to see whats using the most power. Given the 50p per unit coming in, some 'nice to haves' are being switched off. We've already cut electric use by half. Well worth monthly monitoring of use with a spreadsheet. Ive only got data from February, so be interesting to see the increases over winter.
> 
> My nephew's employer, well known chef, just had a £23k bill for one quarter, for his unit where they prep food for events, not the 4 or 5 restaurants. He initially thought there was an extra zero.



I use a spreadsheet for the same reason as you fossy…….


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## Phaeton (28 Aug 2022)

fossyant said:


> My nephew's employer, well known chef, just had a £23k bill for one quarter, for his unit where they prep food for events, not the 4 or 5 restaurants.* He initially thought there was an extra zero.*


I feel the same in some restaurants,


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## vickster (28 Aug 2022)

fossyant said:


> Jesus H Christ, this topic has gone way off.
> 
> I've just ordered a couple of plug in adapters to monitor electric to see whats using the most power. Given the 50p per unit coming in, some 'nice to haves' are being switched off. We've already cut electric use by half. Well worth monthly monitoring of use with a spreadsheet. Ive only got data from February, so be interesting to see the increases over winter.
> 
> My nephew's employer, well known chef, just had a £23k bill for one quarter, for his unit where they prep food for events, not the 4 or 5 restaurants. He initially thought there was an extra zero.



Have his electricity rates risen 10 fold?


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## FishFright (28 Aug 2022)

winjim said:


> A kilowatt hour is energy divided by time multiplied by time. That means the time dimensions cancel and it's a unit of energy, which in most situations is expressed in Joules.
> 
> 1kWh = 3.6MJ
> 
> ...



I didn't even know there was a yotta , everyday should be a learning day cheers.


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## Phaeton (28 Aug 2022)

FishFright said:


> I didn't even know there was a yotta , everyday should be a learning day cheers.



Isn't it what you used to have at school to write notes in?


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## Pat "5mph" (28 Aug 2022)

fossyant said:


> monthly monitoring of use with a spreadsheet.


Bloody accountants  
I wouldn't know a spreadsheet if it stared me in the face (I'm not an office worker, hate numbers) 
Being on my own, I don't need a spreadsheet to know what is using the leccy.
What I will have to do though, is to curtail my baking.
I live baking, but this flat came with an electric oven, I should really change it to a gas one.
Better baking on gas too!


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## fossyant (28 Aug 2022)

vickster said:


> Have his electricity rates risen 10 fold?



I think it's because it's a relatively new unit and they are slow cooking massive batches - they (he) aren't (is) the most financially savvy - raise money via crowdfunding for new premises (North West). You'd think they'd keep an eye on consumption, plus uncapped increases have more than doubled leccy for business.


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## cougie uk (28 Aug 2022)

Pat 5mph said:


> Bloody accountants
> I wouldn't know a spreadsheet if it stared me in the face (I'm not an office worker, hate numbers)
> Being on my own, I don't need a spreadsheet to know what is using the leccy.
> What I will have to do though, is to curtail my baking.
> ...



This will focus people's attention on how they cook. 

Apparently the microwave is the most efficient and an electric oven the least. 
These new fangled air fryers fall somewhere in between. I might get one and ban the oven being used.


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## gzoom (28 Aug 2022)

Whilst it's nice to see such passion for units and measures the latest predictions for 2023 makes the latest cap look 'cheap'.

£1.10/kWh for electricity and 33p/kWh for gas.......as a reminder the current cap is 52p/kWh and 14p/kWh.....so double again!!! - So a £1500/month gas bill for us for winter 2024 .

Ofcourse this all assume Putin doesn't go totally nuts, which is hard to guarantee.

https://inews.co.uk/news/energy-price-cap-average-uk-bill-forecast-7700-april-2023-1819925


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## wiggydiggy (28 Aug 2022)

cougie uk said:


> This will focus people's attention on how they cook.
> 
> Apparently the microwave is the most efficient and an electric oven the least.
> These new fangled air fryers fall somewhere in between. I might get one and ban the oven being used.



My house didn't come with an oven, I'm not buying one. I also have an electric induction hob to swap for my gas one.

I've bought a new slow cooker which I can cook most things in. Going to get a rice cooker as well.

I have though about an electric grill, I saw one the other day that says you can do pizza in it Not sure how that would turn out.


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## Pat "5mph" (28 Aug 2022)

wiggydiggy said:


> I also have an electric induction hob to swap for my gas one.


Would that not cost more to run?
Electricity is more expensive than gas.


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## johnnyb47 (28 Aug 2022)

I never use the oven. As I'm the only person in my house,it seems madness to use when cooking for one. Instead I always use the small table top halogen cooker. It was only £30 from B&M a few years back and is still going strong


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## jowwy (28 Aug 2022)

I cant remember the last time i cooked in the inside kitchen. I got a gas plancha grill and gas pizza oven outside that we have been using. Its been brilliant and gas bottles are still pretty cheap.


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## Pat "5mph" (28 Aug 2022)

johnnyb47 said:


> As I'm the only person in my house,it seems madness to use when cooking for one.


Same here, but I love baking! I give away most of my home baking 
Mind, I've got a stove baking device I could use more.
I'm also switching my electric oven to gas asp.


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## Pat "5mph" (28 Aug 2022)

jowwy said:


> I cant remember the last time i cooked in the inside kitchen. I got a gas plancha grill and gas pizza oven outside that we have been using. Its been brilliant and gas bottles are still pretty cheap.


Not possible here, with the incessant rain.
Also, you must have an outdoor space for outdoor cooking.
I would say 80% of the Glasgow population live in flats.


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## wiggydiggy (28 Aug 2022)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Would that not cost more to run?
> Electricity is more expensive than gas.



I don't know TBH. The hob was a house warming gift from a friend who was getting a new one so I have it.

I think I'll have to wait for first bill to see what unit prices/usage and then go from there.

Though really it's just because I've always wanted a shiny induction hob!



johnnyb47 said:


> I never use the oven. As I'm the only person in my house,it seems madness to use when cooking for one. Instead I always use the small table top halogen cooker. It was only £30 from B&M a few years back and is still going strong



Oh definately. At the end I was only cooking the occasional pizza or garlic bread in it. Iveno idea how much a reasonable electric oven is but seeing as I've almost completely cut out pizza it's a complete waste for me to buy an oven just for that.


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## neil_merseyside (28 Aug 2022)

Food cooking is around 10% of total fuel use so you can only save 5% overall if you cut cooking by 50% Much better to halve heating costs. I remember ice inside the windows as a kid and having the days clothes inside the bed for 5mins to take the edge off....


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## Phaeton (28 Aug 2022)

Wasn't the ice lack of double glazing?


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## neil_merseyside (28 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Wasn't the ice lack of double glazing?



Windows running with water probably better than ice I suppose but I doubt DG common in council houses sixties.


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## wiggydiggy (28 Aug 2022)

neil_merseyside said:


> Food cooking is around 10% of total fuel use so you can only save 5% overall if you cut cooking by 50% Much better to halve heating costs. I remember ice inside the windows as a kid and having the days clothes inside the bed for 5mins to take the edge off....


You are right, it's just food costs are easier and cheaper for me to reduce!

The house seems to retain heat very well, theres at least a foot of insulation in the loft and I'm sat here in shorts only at a balmy 23.5c. I'll have to wait until winter for the cold months, but ATM I'm hopeful itll be a lot better thanmy old one which retained no heat easily at all.


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## Jenkins (28 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Wasn't the ice lack of double glazing?



Single glazed and metal framed windows in the council house I grew up in - no strager to ice on the inside of the windows.


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## jowwy (28 Aug 2022)

So ive just worked out, that even with me only using 5kwh a day electric, thats still going to be around 90 bucks a month with the standard charge…..


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## cougie uk (28 Aug 2022)

Who would have thought our standards could fall so quickly?


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## Jenkins (28 Aug 2022)

Even if I don't use any gas or electricity, I'm still paying £21.09 per month on the standing charges. For the electricity element (£12.28) this adds approximately 40% to my bill as a low energy user, while from about May to October the gas element (£8.81) is 100% of the bill as I only use gas for heating.


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## SpokeyDokey (29 Aug 2022)

I may have missed any references to Economy 7 in previous posts but I can't recollect any. 

We have Economy 7 from Scottish Power (not all suppliers provide overnight rates) and our laundry, dishwasher and hot water tank (immersion heater) for showers are all heated very cheaply overnight. 

Although these days many people have had their 'old fashioned' immersion tanks removed for direct water heating which is blooming expensive.


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## Phaeton (29 Aug 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> I may have missed any references to Economy 7 in previous posts but I can't recollect any.
> 
> We have Economy 7 from Scottish Power (not all suppliers provide overnight rates) and our laundry, dishwasher and hot water tank (immersion heater) for showers are all heated very cheaply overnight.
> 
> Although these days many people have had their 'old fashioned' immersion tanks removed for direct water heating which is blooming expensive.



The problem with Economy 7 & I don't know if it still is, that although the night rate was good, the day rate was more expensive than normal, which meant unless you were careful it could & did in our case work out more expensive.

But some of the more modern suppliers are again offering cheap overnight to charge EV's, I'm hoping once we have the smart meter installed we can get onto it to charge our battery up, at the same time we'll do the washing & the dishwasher


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## SpokeyDokey (29 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> The problem with Economy 7 & I don't know if it still is, that although the night rate was good, the day rate was more expensive than normal, which meant unless you were careful it could & did in our case work out more expensive.
> 
> But some of the more modern suppliers are again offering cheap overnight to charge EV's, I'm hoping once we have the smart meter installed we can get onto it to charge our battery up, at the same time we'll do the washing & the dishwasher



Current rates 14.9p night and 32.5p daytime.


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## Mo1959 (29 Aug 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Current rates 14.9p night and 32.5p daytime.



I’ve still got storage heaters and water on Economy 7 too. Honestly don’t mind it, although I might try and only put the hall heater on this winter and leave all internal doors open to let the heat get to the rest of the house the way things are going!


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## SpokeyDokey (29 Aug 2022)

Mo1959 said:


> I’ve still got storage heaters and water on Economy 7 too. Honestly don’t mind it, although I might try and only put the hall heater on this winter and leave all internal doors open to let the heat get to the rest of the house the way things are going!



Yup, we think Economy 7 is really good.

Electricity is our second biggest fuel bill. 

Usage for decent sized detached bungalow in Cumbria, current billing:

Electricity £750
Heating oil £1100
Coal (smokeless substitute) £550
Logs £200

Total £2600pa


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## chris-suffolk (29 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> The problem with Economy 7 & I don't know if it still is, that although the night rate was good, the day rate was more expensive than normal, which meant unless you were careful it could & did in our case work out more expensive.
> 
> But some of the more modern suppliers are again offering cheap overnight to charge EV's, I'm hoping once we have the smart meter installed we can get onto it to charge our battery up, at the same time we'll do the washing & the dishwasher



Some suppliers will buy back the electricity you've stored in the EV batteries, at a premium, rate during peak rates. You can the use the car as an income source - assuming you can leave it on the drive.


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## oldwheels (29 Aug 2022)

Mo1959 said:


> I’ve still got storage heaters and water on Economy 7 too. Honestly don’t mind it, although I might try and only put the hall heater on this winter and leave all internal doors open to let the heat get to the rest of the house the way things are going!



I tried that for a while last winter but it did not work too well and heat did not get into the rest of my house so had to put on the living room one as well. When it got really cold I have a solid fuel stove which I used in addition and is good but a bit of a faff getting fuel into the house and it had to get cleared of ash every day. No idea what fuel for that will cost this year but it will certainly be up on last year.


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## Alex321 (30 Aug 2022)

cougie uk said:


> I do think people would drive better if the car displayed in pence per mile rather than the MPG or whatever.
> It'd be interesting to see if the fuel price rises have reduced the average speeds on the motorways. We must have this data somewhere.
> 
> Oh - we do. Historically anyway.
> ...



I wouldn't. I was away in my camper van this weekend, which is limited to 65mph (speed limiter fitted when it was School minibus and not removed since conversion). At that speed, I was still being overtaken by far more vehicles than I was overtaking.


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## Alex321 (30 Aug 2022)

Pat 5mph said:


> Would that not cost more to run?
> Electricity is more expensive than gas.



Induction hobs are WAY more efficient than other electric hobs, to the point where there isn't much in it between an induction hob and a gas hob for cost. And they are also just as controllable in terms of immediate heat up and col down.


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## mistyoptic (30 Aug 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Induction hobs are WAY more efficient than other electric hobs, to the point where there isn't much in it between an induction hob and a gas hob for cost. And they are also just as controllable in terms of immediate heat up and col down.


and easier to clean


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## Mo1959 (30 Aug 2022)

Wonder if there would be much savings between using a normal cooker/oven and a good quality combination microwave?


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## fossyant (30 Aug 2022)

Mo1959 said:


> Wonder if there would be much savings between using a normal cooker/oven and a good quality combination microwave?



Probably quite a significant amount. Air fryers are much better for smaller amounts - it's basilly a mini fan oven. We're only using the oven if we can fill it. Big bonus for me is that I'm the poor bugger that has to clean the oven.


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## fossyant (30 Aug 2022)

PS my 'wealthy' sister and BIL are looking at a particular air fryer to cut costs - it's not like they don't have money, and there electric bill is a quarter of mine already, but they have a stupid massive electic arga type thing. Only issue, it's out of stock everywhere.

Were a power air fryer XL (round one) which is great.


----------



## cyberknight (30 Aug 2022)

mrs ck bought a presure cooker last week that you can do small joints in too, sure beats running the oven for hours on a sunday .
I keep banging on to the family to stop wasting electrickery and i have just turned down the boiler temps , mini ck 2 will be sarnies when she goes back to school so thats close to £45 a month saved .
I worry given the nature of my companies production being very high in energy consumption whether the cost of production can be met and how it bodes for future pay rises as even this year the ride we got doesnt even cover the cost of increases for electric so far .


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## winjim (30 Aug 2022)

With the pressure cooker, air fryer and microwave I can cook a Sunday roast without using the oven. If I'm roasting an additional veg like parsnips I might use the oven but otherwise it's chicken in the pressure cooker, roast spuds and yorkshires in the air fryer, veg in the microwave.


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## numbnuts (30 Aug 2022)

cyberknight said:


> mrs ck bought a presure cooker last week that you can do small joints in too, sure beats running the oven for hours on a sunday .
> I keep banging on to the family to stop wasting electrickery and i have *just turned down the boiler temps* , mini ck 2 will be sarnies when she goes back to school so thats close to £45 a month saved .
> I worry given the nature of my companies production being very high in energy consumption whether the cost of production can be met and how it bodes for future pay rises as even this year the ride we got doesnt even cover the cost of increases for electric so far .


 
I have set my boiler temperature so I don't need any cold water for a shower
been doing this few a few years now.
What's the point in heating up water just to cool it down, crazy comes to mind


----------



## chris-suffolk (30 Aug 2022)

numbnuts said:


> I have set my boiler temperature so I don't need any cold water for a shower
> been doing this few a few years now.
> What's the point in heating up water just to cool it down, crazy comes to mind



Maybe because the amount of hot water you have then goes further, and does several showers rather than just 1/2.


----------



## numbnuts (30 Aug 2022)

chris-suffolk said:


> Maybe because the amount of hot water you have then goes further, and does several showers rather than just 1/2.



I live on my own and have a combi boiler


----------



## Phaeton (30 Aug 2022)

Son is currently looking for a house I've advised to wait 6 months there will be loads of repossessions available


----------



## presta (30 Aug 2022)

.


cougie uk said:


> Who would have thought our standards could fall so quickly?


I've always thought that a pain in the wallet would be more effective at reducing CO2 emissions than campaigning.


SpokeyDokey said:


> Although these days many people have had their 'old fashioned' immersion tanks removed for direct water heating which is blooming expensive.


My house has never had a hot water tank since it was built in 1947, up until 2017 it's had multipoint water heaters, now it has a combi. Having been used to running the tap before the water runs hot, I was pretty relaxed about it when the plumber who put the combi in drew it to my attention, but there's a big difference between combis and multipoints. On a M/P there's only one thin copper heat exchanger, directly from gas flame to tap water, but combi has two: one from flame to heating water, then again from heating water to tap water. All in all, this means a M/P runs hot *a lot* quicker than a combi.


Alex321 said:


> Induction hobs are WAY more efficient than other electric hobs


The US Department of Energy don't think so:
_"Summarizing the results of several tests, DOE affirms that "induction units have an average efficiency of 72.2%, not significantly higher than the 69.9% efficiency of smooth—electric resistance units, or the 71.2% of electric coil units"."_


numbnuts said:


> _I have set my boiler temperature so I don't need any cold water for a shower
> been doing this few a few years now.
> What's the point in heating up water just to cool it down, crazy comes to mind_


Lets say you use 50L at 40C from a cold supply of 10C, that's 6.27MJ, but if you have 30L of hot at 50C that's still 6.27MJ, and when it's mixed it with 20L of cold it's also still 50L and 40C.


----------



## Alex321 (30 Aug 2022)

presta said:


> The US Department of Energy don't think so:
> _"Summarizing the results of several tests, DOE affirms that "induction units have an average efficiency of 72.2%, not significantly higher than the 69.9% efficiency of smooth—electric resistance units, or the 71.2% of electric coil units"."_



That depends on just what they mean by efficiency.

Reading the article, I'm not convinced that is actually a very effective way of measuring it for real life.

All I know is that the "rings" on my induction cooker are slightly lower power than on my previous ceramic hob one, but heat the food up far more quickly.


----------



## numbnuts (30 Aug 2022)

presta said:


> .
> 
> I've always thought that a pain in the wallet would be more effective at reducing CO2 emissions than campaigning.
> 
> ...





> lowering the flow temperature on combi boilers can make a difference for some homes if the boiler temperature is already set high – and *could theoretically cut household bills by between 6 per cent and 8 per cent*.


----------



## Phaeton (30 Aug 2022)

I know a watched kettle never boils, but watching the kettle boil & switching it off as soon as the water boils must be a good way of saving, ours typically continues to boil for at least 10-15 seconds before it switches off & at 3000W that's a fair whack.


----------



## fossyant (30 Aug 2022)

Hot Water tank will be reduced slightly in temperature - it's reasonable as it is, but slightly lower will be better - only I can wash pots in the hot water, so that may say it's too hot.

New fridge freezer is set at 3c for fridge (eco is 6c), buy eco for the freezer. Only because it's warm - I'll increse the fridge temp as outside cools. 3c drinks are lovely in summer. The small chest freezer is set in the middle for temperature, I'll reduce to a quarter.


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## Phaeton (30 Aug 2022)

fossyant said:


> The small chest freezer is set in the middle for temperature, I'll reduce to a quarter.


We have an American fridge/freezer in the utility room (sounds posh, it ain't it's the back of the garage) then we have a small upright freezer outside, I'm convinced we don't need to outside freezer, as all we do is store stuff then is likely to go out of date before we use it. However currently I am bing overruled, but it's a long process, not a sprint changing peoples minds.


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## fossyant (30 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> We have an American fridge/freezer in the utility room (sounds posh, it ain't it's the back of the garage) then we have a small upright freezer outside, I'm convinced we don't need to outside freezer, as all we do is store stuff then is likely to go out of date before we use it. However currently I am bing overruled, but it's a long process, not a sprint changing peoples minds.



I know. Our new fridge freezer isn't a double door american style, but it's huge - 80cm deep by 70cm wide and 2m tall, and it's 80% fridge, 20% freezer - the freezer is way bigger than the previous really old under counter frezer. We could get away without the small chest freezer now, but that's handy as it's for longer storage/less used items, and it's not opened regular.


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## jowwy (30 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I know a watched kettle never boils, but watching the kettle boil & switching it off as soon as the water boils must be a good way of saving, ours typically continues to boil for at least 10-15 seconds before it switches off & at 3000W that's a fair whack.



I have a redi kettle, cracking little thing too….can even set what temperature to set it to stop at.

https://drewandcole.com/products/redikettle-1-7l/

and ive just defrosted and got rid if the extra freezer too


----------



## SpokeyDokey (30 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I know a watched kettle never boils, but watching the kettle boil & switching it off as soon as the water boils must be a good way of saving, ours typically continues to boil for at least 10-15 seconds before it switches off & at 3000W that's a fair whack.



It’s not really a "fair wack" - even at eg 50p/Kwh that's only going to save 0.6p


----------



## classic33 (30 Aug 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> It’s not really a "fair wack" - even at eg 50p/Kwh that's only going to save 0.6p


In the long run you'll damage the thermostat, meaning the kettle will need replacing. So not saving anything really.


----------



## Phaeton (30 Aug 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> It’s not really a "fair wack" - even at eg 50p/Kwh that's only going to save 0.6p


0.6x10x365 £21 a year


classic33 said:


> In the long run you'll damage the thermostat, meaning the kettle will need replacing. So not saving anything really.


You reckon, i'm not convinced but could well be wrong


----------



## wiggydiggy (30 Aug 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Induction hobs are WAY more efficient than other electric hobs, to the point where there isn't much in it between an induction hob and a gas hob for cost. And they are also just as controllable in terms of immediate heat up and col down.


It's in the garage otherwise I'd lookup the model number, I have to the fuse box replaced with more modern RCBO box. That's when I'd compare swapping out the gas hob.

I don't have to install the one I've got, it's just Option 1.


Mo1959 said:


> Wonder if there would be much savings between using a normal cooker/oven and a good quality combination microwave?



Well at the moment it'd be more expensive as I dont have an oven at all! I am considering a combination microwave but I want to wait a while and see what I can't cook that I wanted to.

As someone else said though it's heating where the real savings are, I need to research green/efficient boilers. It will cost a lot upfront (I'm est £2.5k) but the sooner I replace the old (at least 15yrs) boiler the more I save in the long run.


----------



## lazybloke (30 Aug 2022)

fossyant said:


> Hot Water tank will be reduced slightly in temperature - it's reasonable as it is, but slightly lower will be better - only I can wash pots in the hot water, so that may say it's too hot.
> 
> New fridge freezer is set at 3c for fridge (eco is 6c), buy eco for the freezer. Only because it's warm - I'll increse the fridge temp as outside cools. 3c drinks are lovely in summer. The small chest freezer is set in the middle for temperature, I'll reduce to a quarter.



Our fridge is just a fridge, also set at 6 C these last few weeks; it was set to 3 C when we got it).
We have separate freezers, which should both be at -18 C.

Just been to both with an iR thermometer.
One was -22 so is working too hard, and wasting power.
The other is at -13, so is either set incorrectly, or it's not working efficiently.

Will tweak both, and put them on power meters to see how much they are costing.


----------



## Phaeton (30 Aug 2022)

wiggydiggy said:


> As someone else said though it's heating where the real savings are, I need to research green/efficient boilers. It will cost a lot upfront (I'm est £2.5k) but the sooner I replace the old (at least 15yrs) boiler the more I save in the long run.


Our boiler is on the landing upstair, very close to the shower, however far more water is drawn from the taps in the kitchen & utility room, it would be far more efficient if it had been placed downstairs near where it's used more, but space was not available, but it does mean it takes a while to get hot water to the taps & the inevitable hot water being left in the pipes not being used which then cools down.


----------



## SpokeyDokey (30 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> 0.6x10x365 £21 a year



Fair enough & no disrespect intended; if that matters to you then who am I to argue. 🙂


----------



## Phaeton (30 Aug 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Fair enough & no disrespect intended; if that matters to you then who am I to argue. 🙂



Sorry didn't mean it that way, it was just the numbers, I expected it to be more


----------



## Jameshow (30 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Son is currently looking for a house I've advised to wait 6 months there will be loads of repossessions available



Your sick.... Says he who offered a low ball offer on a divorced couples house and picked up the range cooker, table and chairs and dresser for 1k cash rather than 10k because she didn't want him to have half of them!!!


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## wiggydiggy (30 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Son is currently looking for a house I've advised to wait 6 months there will be loads of repossessions available



That might be true unfortunately but there will be plenty of other buyers considerably richer than him (and me!) that could get in there first.

I've just bought, if I'd waited any longer I don't think I could have.



Phaeton said:


> Our boiler is on the landing upstair, very close to the shower, however far more water is drawn from the taps in the kitchen & utility room, it would be far more efficient if it had been placed downstairs near where it's used more, but space was not available, but it does mean it takes a while to get hot water to the taps & the inevitable hot water being left in the pipes not being used which then cools down.



I'm looking at a loft installation as it's in the (smallish) kitchen ATM and id like the extra space. The flue would be on the front of the house but I'm not modest and don't care how it looks!

It's a small house so I don't think location will matter too much, my plan is to pay half up front and do the rest on interest free if I can.


----------



## Jameshow (30 Aug 2022)

What I'm not getting is if more and more if our electricity us from renewables then the hike in gas should less and less affect our bills yet our bills keep going up! 

Electricity companies are making a killing just like the petrol companies were 6 months ago.... Whose next?!


----------



## cougie uk (30 Aug 2022)

Jameshow said:


> What I'm not getting is if more and more if our electricity us from renewables then the hike in gas should less and less affect our bills yet our bills keep going up!
> 
> Electricity companies are making a killing just like the petrol companies were 6 months ago.... Whose next?!



I think it's something to do with electric being linked to the cost of gas. As you say electric should be cheaper but because they've linked the two - that's risen too.

I'm sure there's someone else who can explain it better.


----------



## Phaeton (30 Aug 2022)

Have to be careful not to go over the line & get consigned to the dark place, but I think currently we have a Government who is so wrapped up in their own internal turmoil they simple don't care.


----------



## Alex321 (31 Aug 2022)

Jameshow said:


> What I'm not getting is if more and more if our electricity us from renewables then the hike in gas should less and less affect our bills yet our bills keep going up!
> 
> Electricity companies are making a killing just like the petrol companies were 6 months ago.... Whose next?!



While the use of renewables is rising, they still altogether account for only a little more than gas when all renewable sources are counted.. Gas is currently the largest single source of electricity in this country, accounting for 35% of electricity generation in 2021.

https://assets.publishing.service.g...data/file/1032260/UK_Energy_in_Brief_2021.pdf


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## Phaeton (31 Aug 2022)

Alex321 said:


> While the use of renewables is rising, they still altogether account for only a little more than gas when all renewable sources are counted.. Gas is currently the largest single source of electricity in this country, accounting for 35% of electricity generation in 2021.
> 
> https://assets.publishing.service.g...data/file/1032260/UK_Energy_in_Brief_2021.pdf



That really shows how badly we are doing on Solar & Hydro


----------



## SpokeyDokey (31 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> That really shows how badly we are doing on Solar & Hydro



Also our dilly-dallying over nuclear power plants has played into the Russkies hands.


----------



## roubaixtuesday (31 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> That really shows how badly we are doing on Solar & Hydro



There is almost no potential for more hydro in the UK. We don't have much land at significant elevation.

Solar is really small and has the problem that it generates power exactly when it isn't needed (during the middle of the day, in summer). So solar either needs storage (very expensive or not even feasible for long periods of time) or concurrent investment in backup dispatchable power - gas! Electric vehicles as storage for solar has potential to improve that, though I don't think there's currently off the shelf solutions to use your EV as grid storage (unless as part of your own solar installation)? Hopefully I'm wrong and someone can disabuse me of my ignorance.

The big beasts of renewables potential for the UK are wind and tidal. The latter requires truly massive engineering (Swansea bay, Severn barrage) to realise and that doesn't seem to be being contemplated.

So wind it is.


----------



## roubaixtuesday (31 Aug 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Also our dilly-dallying over nuclear power plants has played into the Russkies hands.



Yeah, nuclear is the other low carbon opportunity. For all the criticism of Merkel and Germany in this regard, our policy has been exactly the same up to now - burn gas because it's much cheaper.


----------



## icowden (31 Aug 2022)

roubaixtuesday said:


> Solar is really small and has the problem that it generates power exactly when it isn't needed (during the middle of the day, in summer).


Solar also works in the winter - it uses light not heat. As long as there is some sunlight you will get some power. Obviously less in the winter. I agree that it needs scaling up. It's not helped by *some politicians* promising to get rid of unsightly solar on our arable land because we should be growing crops (spoiler - you can grow crops under solar panels - some crops actually grow *better* - particularly in drought as the panels provide shade and help moisture to be retained in the soil.
https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2022/feb/22/kenya-to-use-solar-panels-to-boost-crops-by-harvesting-the-sun-twice#:~:text=Known as agrivoltaics, the technique,the soil and boosting growth.


roubaixtuesday said:


> So solar either needs storage (very expensive or not even feasible for long periods of time) or concurrent investment in backup dispatchable power - gas! Electric vehicles as storage for solar has potential to improve that, though I don't think there's currently off the shelf solutions to use your EV as grid storage (unless as part of your own solar installation)? Hopefully I'm wrong and someone can disabuse me of my ignorance.


Storage helps. Hence the Tesla mass storage solutions, Tesla powerwall etc. I agree with you that an EV can't be used as storage yet, but it looks like this is on the horizon. Although according to that bastion of knowledge The Daily Express, you can buy a Dcbel R16 for about 3k which is bidirectional. Of course your car would have to support this, and I suspect many (if not all) would not at present. Car charging is controlled by the car - not the charger.


----------



## cougie uk (31 Aug 2022)

This is what I use to see where our energy is coming from. 

https://grid.iamkate.com/

Surely as an island there would be more opportunities to use tidal energy?

Maybe it's something like the Russian situation that forces us to actually do something big on that ?


----------



## Phaeton (31 Aug 2022)

icowden said:


> I agree with you that an EV can't be used as storage yet, but it looks like this is on the horizon.


They can on a personal level, there are charger/inverters out there that uses the EV battery as part of the solution, charger the battery during the day & use it in the evening, you can also utilise cheap EV overnight charing that some providers offer, I was looking at buying a Leaf to achieve this, but I can't justify the ridiculous cost of them


----------



## cougie uk (31 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> They can on a personal level, there are charger/inverters out there that uses the EV battery as part of the solution, charger the battery during the day & use it in the evening, you can also utilise cheap EV overnight charing that some providers offer, I was looking at buying a Leaf to achieve this, but I can't justify the ridiculous cost of them



Speak to Jonathan. 

https://www.eco-cars.net/aboutecocars.php


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## Phaeton (31 Aug 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Speak to Jonathan.
> 
> https://www.eco-cars.net/aboutecocars.php


Been to that site before, maybe from a previous recommendation, the issue is it would have to be a Gen2 2018 on, but they are just too much money, I've hard sold the wife on an EV but she has point blank refused a Gen 1 they are a Marmite design & we don't like Marmite.


----------



## fossyant (31 Aug 2022)

Jameshow said:


> What I'm not getting is if more and more if our electricity us from renewables then the hike in gas should less and less affect our bills yet our bills keep going up!
> 
> Electricity companies are making a killing just like the petrol companies were 6 months ago.... Whose next?!



A fair chunk comes from gas, coal is much reduced as is Nuclear. And renewables aren't available all the time. Much base load comes from gas.


----------



## Phaeton (31 Aug 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Surely as an island there would be more opportunities to use tidal energy?


Huge investment, it would appear that the generating companies are more interested in short term gain & shareholder profits over the long term environmental cost.


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## numbnuts (31 Aug 2022)

I've got a smart meter , just been fitted


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## midlife (31 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> They can on a personal level, there are charger/inverters out there that uses the EV battery as part of the solution, charger the battery during the day & use it in the evening, you can also utilise cheap EV overnight charing that some providers offer, I was looking at buying a Leaf to achieve this, but I can't justify the ridiculous cost of them



I looked at V2G (vehicle to grid charging) when I was looking to buy an EV. At that time about 18 months ago it would take about 5 years to recoup the extra cost of a V2G charger. Would be less nowadays I guess.


----------



## classic33 (31 Aug 2022)

Given the price increase, will it see a reduction in e-scooters, e-assist bikes and plain ebikes in the run up to Christmas this year. 
As people cut back on what they use, power wise.


----------



## vickster (31 Aug 2022)

classic33 said:


> Given the price increase, will it see a reduction in *e-scooters*, e-assist bikes and plain ebikes in the run up to Christmas this year.
> As people cut back on what they use, power wise.



Probably not as most teens don’t give a monkeys about leccy as they aren't paying the bills. Cost of living crisis may mean that fewer get one for Christmas though 

May even see an increase in the dodgy e-bike things delivery riders use as people look to supplement their income with a second job?


----------



## Phaeton (31 Aug 2022)

vickster said:


> May even see an increase in the dodgy e-bike things delivery riders use as people look to supplement their income with a second job?


We had the grandkids yesterday afternoon & as a punishment we took them to the local MccyD's bearing in mind this is not a large town, there were 4 Deliveroo drivers in their cars there all waiting for jobs, whilst we ate our cardboard in the car park we saw most of them leave & come back. Either some people have way too much money to pay the delivery fees, or they are working for a pittance.


----------



## rualexander (31 Aug 2022)

roubaixtuesday said:


> There is almost no potential for more hydro in the UK. We don't have much land at significant elevation.
> ..............
> So wind it is.



There is plenty of land at sufficient elevation (in Scotland certainly) but there is probably little appetite for the large scale flooding of valleys and glens necessary.

In recent years there has been a noticeable increase in the number of small scale hydro power plants on large estates though.

And offshore windfarms are ideal for seabed hydro as an energy storage medium


----------



## MrGrumpy (31 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> This is somebody else's quote, it's now started to get very scary & very real
> 
> View attachment 657948



I’m with the same company and similar quotes, last time I looked ( option has been removed now ) it was £1200 a month . 

I’ve just bought two gas bottle refill for my BBQ. The slow cooker is coming out and the rest is a wing and a prayer. 

Something just wrong about the wholesale costs just now. We generate our own electric, of which costs to produce have not quadrupled neither.


----------



## jowwy (31 Aug 2022)

Been on leave this week so brought the solar generator downstairs to run the big tv and q box…….saved me nearly 1kwh of energy per day


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## cougie uk (31 Aug 2022)

classic33 said:


> Given the price increase, will it see a reduction in e-scooters, e-assist bikes and plain ebikes in the run up to Christmas this year.
> As people cut back on what they use, power wise.



How much do you think it costs to fill the battery on an e bike ?


----------



## vickster (31 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I know a watched kettle never boils, but watching the kettle boil & switching it off as soon as the water boils must be a good way of saving, ours typically continues to boil for at least 10-15 seconds before it switches off & at 3000W that's a fair whack.



You can get kettles that boil to different temperatures - tend to be more premium products (eg Bosch) so may be more efficient generally too


----------



## MontyVeda (31 Aug 2022)

I've got one of these high tech devices...







It's amazing how long it can take for a boiled kettle to lose 10 degrees, and i no longer have a habit of re-boiling a recently boiled kettle... just in case it's cooled down too much


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## chris-suffolk (31 Aug 2022)

roubaixtuesday said:


> There is almost no potential for more hydro in the UK. We don't have much land at significant elevation.


Except maybe the river Severn with the second highest tidal range in the world.


----------



## oldwheels (31 Aug 2022)

cougie uk said:


> I think it's something to do with electric being linked to the cost of gas. As you say electric should be cheaper but because they've linked the two - that's risen too.
> 
> I'm sure there's someone else who can explain it better.



Difficult without getting political but most electricity in Scotland is from renewable ie wind and tidal sources and a lot is exported to England. We still pay more than England tho’.


----------



## fossyant (31 Aug 2022)

vickster said:


> Probably not as most teens don’t give a monkeys about leccy as they aren't paying the bills. Cost of living crisis may mean that fewer get one for Christmas though
> 
> May even see an increase in the dodgy e-bike things delivery riders use as people look to supplement their income with a second job?



This in spades - hence why I'm going to see what power my son's PC set up uses - he spills all the arguements about it not using much... three large screens, VR, high power 750w power supply, high power RTX graphics etc etc, and leaves all the lights on when he goes out ! Doesn't care that running the 10KWh electric shower for literally ages, not only costs a fortune, but has worn out/heated up the main switch a couple of times (since upgraded to double pole heavy duty).

Daughter is a little more responsible and has put her consoles on a switched extension now, rather than them being on standby all the time.


----------



## Jameshow (31 Aug 2022)

oldwheels said:


> Difficult without getting political but most electricity in Scotland is from renewable ie wind and tidal sources and a lot is exported to England. We still pay more than England tho’.



Let's remove the Barnet formula and then we can give ourselves a large electric subsidy!🤣🤣🤣


----------



## PeteXXX (31 Aug 2022)

Maybe this has been covered up-thread but why is the Standing Charge going up?
Mine is at present, 23.85 p per day for Electric and 26.10 for gas. 
My next bill, apart from the huge increase in actual electricity and gas, has increases on the Standing Charge to 44.57 & 27.22 respectively.


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## presta (31 Aug 2022)

fossyant said:


> I'm going to see what power my son's PC set up uses - he spills all the arguments about it not using much... three large screens, VR, high power 750w power supply, high power RTX graphics etc etc


My 32" TV is only 140W, but it's on for ~7hrs a day, so it's the second biggest user in the house after the 10.8kW shower, and _above _the washer dryer and cooker. Look how high up the list the router is, too, this is why I keep reminding people that low power appliances are still significant if they're on for long hours.


----------



## jowwy (31 Aug 2022)

cougie uk said:


> How much do you think it costs to fill the battery on an e bike ?



On a 500wh ebike like mine…..15p


----------



## jowwy (31 Aug 2022)

presta said:


> My 32" TV is only 140W, but it's on for ~7hrs a day, so it's the second biggest user in the house after the 10.8kW shower, and _above _the washer dryer and cooker. Look how high up the list the router is, too, this is why I keep reminding people that low power appliances are still significant if they're on for long hours.
> 
> View attachment 659492



Thats a lot of power for 32” tv……


----------



## Jameshow (31 Aug 2022)

PeteXXX said:


> Maybe this has been covered up-thread but why is the Standing Charge going up?
> Mine is at present, 23.85 p per day for Electric and 26.10 for gas.
> My next bill, apart from the huge increase in actual electricity and gas, has increases on the Standing Charge to 44.57 & 27.22 respectively.



Greed?!🤔😭🤔😭🤔


----------



## oldwheels (31 Aug 2022)

Jameshow said:


> Let's remove the Barnet formula and then we can give ourselves a large electric subsidy!🤣🤣🤣



I could give a very comprehensive answer to that which is based on your probable ignorance of the true situation but would be banished to the dark place.


----------



## midlife (31 Aug 2022)

PeteXXX said:


> Maybe this has been covered up-thread but why is the Standing Charge going up?
> Mine is at present, 23.85 p per day for Electric and 26.10 for gas.
> My next bill, apart from the huge increase in actual electricity and gas, has increases on the Standing Charge to 44.57 & 27.22 respectively.



Apparently to cover the cost of the smaller electric companies going bust. I think my standing charge is about 40 odd pence


----------



## roubaixtuesday (1 Sep 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Surely as an island there would be more opportunities to use tidal energy?



Yes, there are, but for any substantial amount of power they need massive engineering (Severn barrage etc) with mahoosive costs, both fiscal and environmental, and very long timescales.


----------



## roubaixtuesday (1 Sep 2022)

rualexander said:


> There is plenty of land at sufficient elevation (in Scotland certainly) but there is probably little appetite for the large scale flooding of valleys and glens necessary.
> 
> In recent years there has been a noticeable increase in the number of small scale hydro power plants on large estates though.
> 
> And offshore windfarms are ideal for seabed hydro as an energy storage medium



There is not "plenty of land at sufficient elevation". It's just not true, and even if it were, as you point out, it would require flooding large areas. Compared to countries with substantial hydro (Switzerland, Norway) Scottish potential is small. The Alps are much bigger and much higher than the Highlands. "Without hot air" did a good treatment of this. 

Small scale hydro is fine, but irrelevant in the overall supply of leccy to the country. The clue is in the name.


----------



## roubaixtuesday (1 Sep 2022)

chris-suffolk said:


> Except maybe the river Severn with the second highest tidal range in the world.



That's tidal, not hydro. And my post agreed with you.

_The big beasts of renewables potential for the UK are wind and tidal. The latter requires truly massive engineering (Swansea bay, *Severn barrage*) to realise and that doesn't seem to be being contemplated
_


----------



## winjim (1 Sep 2022)

Living in Sheffield with its many rivers and industrial heritage, I do idly wonder if all the old mill infrastructure could be repurposed with some sort of microturbines for local electricity generation instead of the traditional water wheels. I expect it's more hassle than it's worth.


----------



## roubaixtuesday (1 Sep 2022)

winjim said:


> Living in Sheffield with its many rivers and industrial heritage, I do idly wonder if all the old mill infrastructure could be repurposed with some sort of microturbines for local electricity generation instead of the traditional water wheels. I expect it's more hassle than it's worth.



Styal Mill in Cheshire does exactly that, though as it's National Trust, it's possible a commercial business case wasn't needed. IIRC there was actually a hydro turbine installed while it was still a going concern.

These sorts of installations, whilst undoubtedly a Good Thing, are near irrelevant as a potential overall input to UK leccy. There's not enough water in the rivers and it they aren't at sufficient altitude.

Just for example, the Rhône flows from Lake Geneva at 1,700m³/s from 372m altitude.

The Severn has a flowrate of just 60m³/s, about 30x lower. It's altitude as far upstream as Llanidloes is just 160m, less than half (and the flowrate there will be less, too)

So the Rhone has 60x the hydro potential of the Severn, even from the point it _exits_ the Alps!


----------



## cougie uk (1 Sep 2022)

winjim said:


> Living in Sheffield with its many rivers and industrial heritage, I do idly wonder if all the old mill infrastructure could be repurposed with some sort of microturbines for local electricity generation instead of the traditional water wheels. I expect it's more hassle than it's worth.



Isn't there a stately house out there that had the first electric in the country ? They ran all of the lights from the waterwheel. 

I should put a wind turbine on my bike that could charge all my gadgets from the inevitable headwind.


----------



## cougie uk (1 Sep 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Isn't there a stately house out there that had the first electric in the country ? They ran all of the lights from the waterwheel.
> 
> I should put a wind turbine on my bike that could charge all my gadgets from the inevitable headwind.



Oh I was close. Bit further North. 

https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/cragside


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## ColinJ (1 Sep 2022)

I remember _*Salter's Ducks*_ from the 1970s/1980s... Maybe that idea should be looked at again!


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## Phaeton (1 Sep 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Oh I was close. Bit further North.
> 
> https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/cragside



lol, just a bit, but I suppose it's outside the M25 so irrelevant, Chatsworth has a big waterfall & fountain powered by water


----------



## winjim (1 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> lol, just a bit, but I suppose it's outside the M25 so irrelevant, Chatsworth has a big waterfall & fountain powered by water



Whack a turbine in it.


----------



## roubaixtuesday (1 Sep 2022)

ColinJ said:


> I remember _*Salter's Ducks*_ from the 1970s/1980s... Maybe that idea should be looked at again!




At risk of being really, really tedious, wave power also does not have the potential for a significant overall part of UK energy. 

Figures here

https://www.withouthotair.com/c12/page_73.shtml

Understandable as the wish for small scale hydro, home wind, wave etc etc is, unless you do the numbers, it's just wishful thinking. 







Wind and tidal are the big beasts of UK renewables. Everything else, whilst perfectly OK in itself, is near irrelevant in the big picture.


----------



## fossyant (1 Sep 2022)

jowwy said:


> On a 500wh ebike like mine…..15p



That's cheaper than the MPB I get on my normal bike - miles per banana, vs miles per KWh


----------



## fossyant (1 Sep 2022)

The non-smart power meter adpters are yet to arrive, but I've ordered a couple of TP Link Tapo Smart Wifi adapters with energy monitoring - they arrived earlier £9.99 each on Amazon.

Washing a stack of clothing now,dryer on for lighter items, 2.1 KWh. Everything else piled on the clothes maiden and the dehumidifier is running at full blast at 350w - it all adds up. Big items on the line. Only got until the morning to get the lot dry !


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## Jameshow (1 Sep 2022)

fossyant said:


> That's cheaper than the MPB I get on my normal bike - miles per banana, vs miles per KWh



What mpb do you get? 

I get 60 miles from 3 donuts and 500mls coke! 

20mpd+c(166ml)


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## fossyant (1 Sep 2022)

Jameshow said:


> What mpb do you get?
> 
> I get 60 miles from 3 donuts and 500mls coke!
> 
> 20mpd+c(166ml)



About 30 mpb. Zero anything until 30 other than 500 ml of H2O


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## ColinJ (1 Sep 2022)

numbnuts said:


> I've got a smart meter , just been fitted



Today, BG have failed to provide me with a working smart meter. That is the 3rd time in 3 years!

The engineer said that they just can't get the parts. That's what he said a year or so ago. (I think it was the same engineer.)

Anyway, he said that it isn't really a problem because I can just go down into my cellar and read the meters manually if I want to know the readings... And then enter them manually on the BG website... And not be eligible for monthly billing...


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## DaveReading (1 Sep 2022)

cougie uk said:


> I should put a wind turbine on my bike that could charge all my gadgets from the inevitable headwind.


You do realise that would slow you down?

There's no such thing as a free lunch.


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## lazybloke (2 Sep 2022)

ColinJ said:


> I remember _*Salter's Ducks*_ from the 1970s/1980s... Maybe that idea should be looked at again!




Brilliant. I wish YouTube had existed when I was writing my Uni dissertation on renewable energy circa 30 years ago; my section on wave power could have been much better.


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## PK99 (2 Sep 2022)

I've just checked our tariff and options.

We have long been BG Dual Fuel switching to their best current rate whenever presented with an option and deliberately avoiding the constant switching that some folks did.

Currently on a fixed tariff to December 2023 with a projected combined bill of £2,750 pa

Current best offer from BG for a Fixed deal to Sept 2023, has a projected combined bill of £8,500pa

EDIT: We will not be switching tariff at this time...


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## cougie uk (2 Sep 2022)

DaveReading said:


> You do realise that would slow you down?
> 
> There's no such thing as a free lunch.



Nooo. I'll mount it out front so that the turbine takes away the headwind. 

It's a genius idea.


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## fossyant (2 Sep 2022)

Just keep an eye on your Direct Debits. I'm logging in monthly to submit readings, and I'm currently £350 in credit and will be £500 by 1st October. At current prices we are using about £170 a month but checking my provider they are suggesting £600.  Now I'm overpaying at £330 a month and with price rises they aren't getting more than £400. Ive already had £400 back from over payments. Our main issue is we've halved electric consumption but only since March, but there is a previous 6 months where it was higher.

Keep an eye on the DD come October


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## FishFright (2 Sep 2022)

fossyant said:


> This in spades - hence why I'm going to see what power my son's PC set up uses - he spills all the arguements about it not using much... three large screens, VR, high power 750w power supply, high power RTX graphics etc etc, and leaves all the lights on when he goes out ! Doesn't care that running the 10KWh electric shower for literally ages, not only costs a fortune, but has worn out/heated up the main switch a couple of times (since upgraded to double pole heavy duty).
> 
> Daughter is a little more responsible and has put her consoles on a switched extension now, rather than them being on standby all the time.



I blame the parents


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## ColinJ (2 Sep 2022)

ColinJ said:


> Today, BG have failed to provide me with a working smart meter. That is the 3rd time in 3 years!
> 
> The engineer said that they just can't get the parts. That's what he said a year or so ago. (I think it was the same engineer.)
> 
> Anyway, he said that it isn't really a problem because I can just go down into my cellar and read the meters manually if I want to know the readings... And then enter them manually on the BG website... And not be eligible for monthly billing...



Hah - I got an email saying that I need to provide a gas meter reading. The old meter had a reading of 07121. The engineer fitted a new meter, which was zeroed. I just looked at my account and BG seem to think that the old reading was 99999 yesterday! I will provide the true reading but I foresee me getting a gas bill of about £3,000,000!!!!!!!! 

PS I put the new reading of 00000 in and that was accepted. I am slightly peeved that they might think that I used the 00001 to wrap the reading round from 99999!


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## ColinJ (2 Sep 2022)

Ha - they are adding £0.80 for the 00001 that I didn't use! In theory I should refuse to pay it but it will do more than 80p worth of damage to my sanity to argue about it...  (If it were _£80_ I would sort it out!)


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## gbb (3 Sep 2022)

Bills just in, combined gas and electric.
Last bill was £126
This bill is £114
I expected it to be higher seeing we have our son back at home, more baths, electric, TV etc etc.
Now £730 on credit...which seems criminally high (we like to be in credit but never that much) but given further price rises and oncoming winter, it seems prudent.


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## midlife (3 Sep 2022)

gbb said:


> Bills just in, combined gas and electric.
> Last bill was £126
> This bill is £114
> I expected it to be higher seeing we have our son back at home, more baths, electric, TV etc etc.
> Now £730 on credit...which seems criminally high (we like to be in credit but never that much) but given further price rises and oncoming winter, it seems prudent.



£114, I guess that's a month? Seems very cheap.


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## fossyant (3 Sep 2022)

I've changed the default preferences on my account in that it would refund on the 'annual renewal', which is in October - stupid - options were refund in full, refund over £75 credit (which was default) and offset future bills. I've reset to 'offset future bills', so the £500 credit wil help.

Further experiments - the hot tub . Just replaced the impeller on the filter pump as the old one had just packed up after getting a little rattly (the spindle wears). On 'pump' only, it's consuming about 45w (the sticker on the pump says 50w so accurate). Pop on the heating and it's 2 KWh, so that's going to be a quid an hour, and will take 12 hours to get to temperature (from around 20c to 39c) - £12 at 50p a KWh. It was costing about £3 to heat for once a week use, which isn't too bad - heating is switched off after use, and takes 3 days to drop to 20c. Leaving it running at temperature will probably cost £6 per day , averaging the heater being on 1/4 the time. As it stands I'll be leaving the pump on to keep the water filtered, then just switch off and drain come November when water temp drops below 10c. Bearing in mind we've had the tub for four years, it's going to be switched off this year. Just impossible to afford these days.


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## gbb (3 Sep 2022)

midlife said:


> £114, I guess that's a month? Seems very cheap.



We work moderately hard (but are not obsessed with it) to limit usage.
Tv doesn't get used that much anyway, Sky box gets turned off when not in use (I read they consume a fair bit on standby) the boiler times has been turned down again with the aim of not heating water to cool off unused, quite a few little things. Plus the house is quite well insulated and modern construction (although built in the late 60s)
My daughters house, similar area, age and design, with solar panels, her last combined bill was circa £80 odd
Monthly bills, yes.


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## cyberknight (3 Sep 2022)

gbb said:


> We work moderately hard (but are not obsessed with it) to limit usage.
> Tv doesn't get used that much anyway, Sky box gets turned off when not in use (I read they consume a fair bit on standby) the boiler times has been turned down again with the aim of not heating water to cool off unused, quite a few little things. Plus the house is quite well insulated and modern construction (although built in the late 60s)
> My daughters house, similar area, age and design, with solar panels, her last combined bill was circa £80 odd
> Monthly bills, yes.



currently 165 a month for me with a similar house but 2 kids so im basically going around turning stuff off all the time thats been left on by everyone
convinced mrs ck she doesnt need to use a 155 min wash for clothes at last !


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## midlife (3 Sep 2022)

gbb said:


> We work moderately hard (but are not obsessed with it) to limit usage.
> Tv doesn't get used that much anyway, Sky box gets turned off when not in use (I read they consume a fair bit on standby) the boiler times has been turned down again with the aim of not heating water to cool off unused, quite a few little things. Plus the house is quite well insulated and modern construction (although built in the late 60s)
> My daughters house, similar area, age and design, with solar panels, her last combined bill was circa £80 odd
> Monthly bills, yes.



I think my electric must be leaking out of the sockets somewhere lol 

3 person household here and not profligate but oil/electric a month nowhere near your dual fuel bill.

Haircut for the boy this morning (school holidays ending) and hairdresser said prices going up quite a bit to cover the cost of the shops electric bill


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## gbb (3 Sep 2022)

midlife said:


> I think my electric must be leaking out of the sockets somewhere lol
> 
> 3 person household here and not profligate but oil/electric a month nowhere near your dual fuel bill.
> 
> Haircut for the boy this morning (school holidays ending) and hairdresser said prices going up quite a bit to cover the cost of the shops electric bill



Tbf, 2 now 3 adults who each spend a fair amount of time away from the house each day. I'm sure if we had kids in the house, out bills would be significantly higher .


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## gbb (3 Sep 2022)

cyberknight said:


> currently 165 a month for me with a similar house but 2 kids so im basically going around turning stuff off all the time thats been left on by everyone
> convinced mrs ck she doesnt need to use a 155 min wash for clothes at last !



When you say 155 minute wash, is that an economy mode ?
We always used quick wash programs ,(washing or dishwaher), now switched to economy programs (up to 3 hours long) but the logic is your washing longer at a lower temperature. All (or most) of the power these machines use is heating, the most expensive bit. The motor uses comparatively little, so it's better to wash cooler for longer. Switching to eco modes has certainly contributed to lower bills here.


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## cyberknight (3 Sep 2022)

gbb said:


> When you say 155 minute wash, is that an economy mode ?
> We always used quick wash programs ,(washing or dishwaher), now switched to economy programs (up to 3 hours long) but the logic is your washing longer at a lower temperature. All (or most) of the power these machines use is heating, the most expensive bit. The motor uses comparatively little, so it's better to wash cooler for longer. Switching to eco modes has certainly contributed to lower bills here.



that was a 40 c wash ! because shes always used that and hasnt had the thought process to try better programs


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## Phaeton (3 Sep 2022)

Back in the day all washing machines used to have a hot feed into them, presumably it was easier/cheaper for the manufacturers to do it this way, but it would make sense to have hot fill again.


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## fossyant (3 Sep 2022)

We always use the eco modes - 59 minute wash defaults to 60c, so one press of the temp and it drops it to 40c or 30c with two presses. Other is quick wash and that's 15,30 and 45 mins at 30c - ideal for cycling kit. Big washes are done on the longer modes, and the machine weighs the load, and washes at 30c or 40c depending upon programme.


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## numbnuts (3 Sep 2022)

My clothes are not dirty as such and I've been using 20c at 59 minutes so far so good


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## PK99 (3 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Back in the day all washing machines used to have a hot feed into them, presumably it was easier/cheaper for the manufacturers to do it this way, but it *would make sense to have hot fill again.*



Apparently not.
1. Even hotfill mainly uses the cold water standing in the pipes between hot tank and machine.

2. Enzymes in biological detergents can be deactrivated by a brief exposure to hot water.

3. Similarly, some modern materials are damaged by partial exposure to hot water.


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## cyberknight (3 Sep 2022)

fossyant said:


> We always use the eco modes - 59 minute wash defaults to 60c, so one press of the temp and it drops it to 40c or 30c with two presses. Other is quick wash and that's 15,30 and 45 mins at 30c - ideal for cycling kit. Big washes are done on the longer modes, and the machine weighs the load, and washes at 30c or 40c depending upon programme.



sounds like our machine


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## fossyant (3 Sep 2022)

I do think this 'cost' crisis has caused us all to look at use - we were very lazy last winter as the dryer was on with most washes - no longer, it's only for 'emergencies'. We'd turned the heating down, including reduced hours last winter as we'd completely borded the loft (having only been 50% done) and this made a big difference to heat retention in the bedrooms below the new boarding (despite decent insulation).

My SIL runs a small electrical shop, god knows what their electric will be like as they have lighting displays - I suspect they will be switched off unless a customer want's to see them.


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## numbnuts (3 Sep 2022)

Candle light dinners brings a new meaning, it would be funny, but it's not 
Still it does sort out the Christmas presents


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## Phaeton (3 Sep 2022)

fossyant said:


> we were are very lazy last winter as the dryer was on with most washes - no longer, it's only for 'emergencies'.


This is my current biggest battle, I know the answer that is for me to do it all, but I'm being selfish about it.


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## mistyoptic (3 Sep 2022)




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## SpokeyDokey (3 Sep 2022)

fossyant said:


> I do think this 'cost' crisis has caused us all to look at use - we were very lazy last winter as the dryer was on with most washes - no longer, it's only for 'emergencies'. We'd turned the heating down, including reduced hours last winter as we'd completely borded the loft (having only been 50% done) and this made a big difference to heat retention in the bedrooms below the new boarding (despite decent insulation).
> 
> My SIL runs a small electrical shop, god knows what their electric will be like as they have lighting displays - I suspect they will be switched off unless a customer want's to see them.



I agree re the usage comment but many people might save more by canning their phone contracts ASAP and switching to sim only.

Just a thought.


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## presta (3 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> it would make sense to have hot fill again


I think they must have given up on trying to make them work on a wide variety of different hot water systems.

I used to have a Hotpoint 9934 washer dryer, which worked fine on my multipoint water heater, but I think that generation of machine were notorious for not working well on a tanked system if the pressure was unusually low (eg: bungalows). When I got my Hotpoint WD61 I was left with the feeling it had been modified to work on very low pressures, but it never did work on my multipoint that delivers hot water at mains pressure, so I had to switch to cold fill anyway.

Connected directly to the water heater, the flow rate was far too fast for the WD61, and the powder drawer used to overflow and flood the kitchen floor. Hotpoint's advice in response to this was to fit a tap in the hot feed, and adjust it to 'reduce the pressure', but I could never make them understand the problem: by the time the flow rate was set low enough to prevent flooding, it wasn't enough to light the gas on the heater, and I got cold fill whether I wanted it or not. (I got _"well repair the water heater, then"_ because I couldn't make them see that the multipoint _has _to switch the gas burner off at low flow rates to prevent the water from becoming scalding hot.) With patience, and a lot of careful faffing, it was *just *possible to find a setting which would both avoid flooding _and _light the gas, but the margins were so fine that all it would take was a tiny fluctuation in mains pressure, and I would be back to either a kitchen flood or cold fill again.


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## fossyant (3 Sep 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> I agree re the usage comment but many people might save more by canning their phone contracts ASAP and switching to sim only.
> 
> Just a thought.



Yup. Zwift has gone, not using it at all TBH, back commuting and road riding now after my big off 6 years ago - it was very useful for a few years, but now don't use it at all.

Phone contracts are a biggy. 

Sister's house has 4 Sky boxes (Q and others) - WTF - hubby die hard United fan and loves Boris. They are looking to cut back. Sky is a total rip off. BIL is 40 and is the only person in our 'extended' family that thinks Boris is anything other than a tool - he loves him. He won't now...


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## Regular.Cyclist (3 Sep 2022)

Two person household, both active and training for long distance events, so washing machine on once a day to keep up, and frequent showers. I work from home 60% of the time. Hot water and kitchen hob fed by gas, ovens are electric.

We got smart meters installed 80 days ago. Since then we have ran up £117 in electricity and £92.07 in gas. On a fixed rate till December next year.


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## Pat "5mph" (3 Sep 2022)

cyberknight said:


> convinced mrs ck she doesnt need to use a 155 min wash for clothes at last !


That was extravagant!


cyberknight said:


> that was a 40 c wash ! because shes always used that and hasnt had the thought process to try better programs


I wash at 40, on a one hour program, always have done.
My clothes are never dirty as in stained, just smelly from work and various activities.
Seems to work fine.


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## cyberknight (4 Sep 2022)

Pat 5mph said:


> That was extravagant!
> 
> I wash at 40, on a one hour program, always have done.
> My clothes are never dirty as in stained, just smelly from work and various activities.
> Seems to work fine.



heck i wash my stuff on the 30 min wash at 30c and i get sweaty and dirty but it comes out fine


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## jowwy (5 Sep 2022)

Just received August's energy bill - Duel fuel was £79 for the month.......£25 of that is standing charges

Electric - £64
Gas - £15


So based on the £180 monthly direct debot they wanted me to pay....thats £100 staying in my account, rather than theres and if it wasnt for the pesky standard charges ( which the owner of Octopus energy states should be scrapped) i would be a further £25 better off this month.

Current base energy use for electric is 70whs......


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## gbb (5 Sep 2022)

interestingly I just glanced at this months Bulb bill, which gives comparisons with the same bill last year.
We used around 30% less electric than this time last year.
We used around 50% less gas than this time last year

To me, thats quite extraordinary, we have taken steps but didn't think of them as huge ones.
Hot water was always left on all the time. Earlier this year, we switched it to just coming on early evening, off before we went to bed.
Washing machine and dishwasher were always fast programs, switched to eco on both.
Other little things like turning off the Sky box and any TV on standby but equally, we haven't been OTT with it all.

Just a little additional, normal (not combi) boiler with a hot water tank.


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## numbnuts (5 Sep 2022)

Yesterday I used £2.80 of gas and electric which includes SC and VAT


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## fossyant (5 Sep 2022)

Some usage figures:-

Home 'office setup' - laptop, hub and two monitors - 45w, jumps to 47w when charging phone via USB.

New 'Big' Fridge Freezer - anything from zero, to 50w when fan running to 300w when cooling.
Slow Cooker - 250w on low, 360w high - cooked 'tea' in 6 hours at high yesterday, so about 60p at current prices.
Toaster - runs around 1,500w for a few minutes
Coffee Pod Machine - 1,500w for the minute it takes to make a single cup (currently using re-useable pods).

I did arrive home yesterday and found downstairs loo, lounge and kitchen lights had been left on all night by my son ! He went to work this morning, PC running and two chargers left plugged in - grrrr. Really has no idea despite me telling him last week how much it was costing. Fortunately I'll be running a power off schedule for his bedroom sockets during the day.


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## jowwy (5 Sep 2022)

numbnuts said:


> Yesterday I used £2.80 of gas and electric which includes SC and VAT



i used £1.58 that includes SC and VAT


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## jowwy (5 Sep 2022)

fossyant said:


> Some usage figures:-
> 
> Home 'office setup' - laptop, hub and two monitors - 45w, jumps to 47w when charging phone via USB.
> 
> ...



i woudl add the extra costs to his rent/board and lodge...whatever it is they pay these days lol


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## Phaeton (5 Sep 2022)

jowwy said:


> i woudl add the extra costs to his rent/board and lodge...whatever it is they pay these days lol



£0.00 seems to be the going rate these days


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## jowwy (5 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> £0.00 seems to be the going rate these days



wouldnt have had that back in my days of living at home and working.......mine was £50 a week, plus the council tax bill ( when i moved back home at 26yrs for 2yrs)


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## gbb (5 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> £0.00 seems to be the going rate these days



Its perhaps human nature for the / some young to expect it to continue as it always did...free.
My son is back home, only get minimal benefits but we still charge him £100 per month...which tbf is a chunk out of those benefits but waddayado ? He's an adult now.
That includes food, hot water, whatever he always needed as a kid.
He is negotiating it down, he want to buy his own food, tbf it is difficult getting / knowing what he eats / wants so we are kinda in agreement, probably charge him a nominal £40 a month, no food. The reality is, he will still eat some of ours, I know that but again, waddayado ?
For the record, he is long term / almost permanently not able to work, stress, anxiety, depression and heart irregularities...add into the mix, he never ever did make good choices. He's a good kid (now adult) but let's call his lifestyle...alternative, nonconformist.
We make allowances happily, sometimes grudgingly, but hes no different than a kid with mental health issues, you wouldn't turn your back on that so why would you who can't process the world and make decisions most others would, its just his chemical mix as I call it.

Lots of info there, for a reason. Some would say he's an adult, why make exception, why should he cause you expense, live for virtually nothing....because he isn't like 'normal' people..he doesn't / cannot process life as we do mentally. Its a Curse for him...and for us but we love and support him.


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## jowwy (5 Sep 2022)

gbb said:


> Its perhaps human nature for the / some young to expect it to continue as it always did...free.
> My son is back home, only get minimal benefits but we still charge him £100 per month...which tbf is a chunk out of those benefits but waddayado ? He's an adult now.
> That includes food, hot water, whatever he always needed as a kid.
> He is negotiating it down, he want to buy his own food, tbf it is difficult getting / knowing what he eats / wants so we are kinda in agreement, probably charge him a nominal £40 a month, no food. The reality is, he will still eat some of ours, I know that but again, waddayado ?
> ...



no chance of "you will eat what your given" then ??


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## gbb (5 Sep 2022)

jowwy said:


> no chance of "you will eat what your given" then ??



There's the normal range of foods, some requested by himself. When they're gone they're gone, he eats whatever is there...or not. We don't bend over backwards, rather make some soft allowances.


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## jowwy (5 Sep 2022)

gbb said:


> There's the normal range of foods, some requested by himself. When they're gone they're gone, he eats whatever is there...or not. We don't bend over backwards, rather make some soft allowances.



im just wondering why the £60 reduction, if he's eating whats put in front of him.......i mean i used to buy my own food too, but no chance of a reduction as rent/mortgae, electric, gas, water, Ctax etc etc are all costs and need to be paid and me living there raised some of those costs, including the food bill, whether i ate it or not

But all power to you, if you can afford to do it....


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## gbb (5 Sep 2022)

jowwy said:


> im just wondering why the £60 reduction, if he's eating whats put in front of him.......i mean i used to buy my own food too, but no chance of a reduction as rent/mortgae, electric, gas, water, Ctax etc etc are all costs and need to be paid and me living there raised some of those costs, including the food bill, whether i ate it or not
> 
> But all power to you, if you can afford to do it....



He eats very sporadically and is very fussy, certainly not a big eater. We can afford it, no problem there but this will stop him low level moaning there's nothing in for him.


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## Phaeton (5 Sep 2022)

gbb said:


> He eats very sporadically and is very fussy, certainly not a big eater. We can afford it, no problem there but this will stop him low level moaning there's nothing in for him.



We're probably well OT now, but it is difficult, our son came back from New Zealand a few years ago & try as he might he couldn't get a job for nearly 6 months, as he'd been out of the country for 2 years the DWP (or whoever they are now) refused to give him any money as he was honest & told them he lived with us & wasn't homeless. With no money coming in what were we supposed to do?


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## fossyant (5 Sep 2022)

We have the same issue with my son, he's earning a good wage, especially for 21, but he's begrudgingly paying £150 a month in rent. Some month's he pays, other's forgets. Does say none of his mate's pay anything ! Grr.

It's principal rather than anything else as he'd have at least a grand a month to pay out if he got a flat.


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## Phaeton (5 Sep 2022)

fossyant said:


> It's principal rather than anything else as he'd have at least a grand a month to pay out if he got a flat.


His trip I think was the making of him, whilst there he shared a flat with another, they had to meet all the bills, have enough for food, I think in the 2 years he was there he did ask once for £200 which was paid back the following month.


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## fossyant (5 Sep 2022)

I've just told my sister we won't be going for a 'meal' out to celebrate her 50th. She's very well off - both good jobs, no kids, house inherited from BIL's folks. Where we'd host a party, all food paid for by us, she'll invite you out for a meal and you pay for yourself, on top of getting her a decent present, so I've said we're cutting back, as our utility bill could rocket to £600 per month. I'd also have to pay for 4 adults - if son had to pay, he wouldn't go 

I don't know what many folk are doing, just burying their heads about increases ? My niece will be crucified by these rises (pre-pay meter). My sister just goes 'oh rocky times ahead' !  My brother-in-law is a tight wad, he wouldn't even use the conservatory last year during colder months whilst WFH (cost to much to heat), and then complains he's on the kitchen table !


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## jowwy (5 Sep 2022)

fossyant said:


> I've just told my sister we won't be going for a 'meal' out to celebrate her 50th. She's very well off - both good jobs, no kids, house inherited from BIL's folks. Where we'd host a party, all food paid for by us, she'll invite you out for a meal and you pay for yourself, on top of getting her a decent present, so I've said we're cutting back, as our utility bill could rocket to £600 per month. I'd also have to pay for 4 adults - if son had to pay, he wouldn't go
> 
> I don't know what many folk are doing, just burying their heads about increases ? My niece will be crucified by these rises (pre-pay meter). My sister just goes 'oh rocky times ahead' !  My brother-in-law is a tight wad, he wouldn't even use the conservatory last year during colder months whilst WFH (cost to much to heat), and then complains he's on the kitchen table !



and thats why they are well off....everyone else pays


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## numbnuts (5 Sep 2022)

I had to pay £2 10 shillings out of £4 4 shilling and 6 pence


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## DCLane (5 Sep 2022)

fossyant said:


> We have the same issue with my son, he's earning a good wage, especially for 21, but he's begrudgingly paying £150 a month in rent. Some month's he pays, other's forgets. Does say none of his mate's pay anything ! Grr.
> 
> It's principal rather than anything else as he'd have at least a grand a month to pay out if he got a flat.



My neighbours had both their 'adult' sons living at home whilst working. They didn't ask for rent but they made both of them put the monthly rent equivalent into a LISA / savings scheme, meaning it was enough for a house deposit each after 2/3 years. Both have now moved out.


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## fossyant (5 Sep 2022)

DCLane said:


> My neighbours had both their 'adult' sons living at home whilst working. They didn't ask for rent but they made both of them put the monthly rent equivalent into a LISA / savings scheme, meaning it was enough for a house deposit each after 2/3 years. Both have now moved out.



My missus is sort of doing that when he pays rent - putting it away !


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## MrGrumpy (5 Sep 2022)

fossyant said:


> My missus is sort of doing that when he pays rent - putting it away !



Ditto we charge digs on our two eldest. It gets saved up . They will get most of it back later .


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## neil_merseyside (5 Sep 2022)

numbnuts said:


> I had to pay £2 10 shillings out of £4 4 shilling and 6 pence



Blimey that's about 35% and a good bit more than the 20% I begrudgingly paid, and that was out of any wages or my benefits.
Paying towards family finances taught me valuable lessons and probably encouraged me to fly the nest early.
My old boss took 20% of his kids wages (based on my keep%) but he gave them it back the day they moved out. Kids should pay something and do stuff as needed. Too cushy and they won't go!


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## fossyant (5 Sep 2022)

Just done my bit for energy saving (well at least till we get a new kettle). Just got 240v down my left arm from the switch on the top of the kettle. In the bin it went.


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## numbnuts (5 Sep 2022)

fossyant said:


> Just done my bit for energy saving (well at least till we get a new kettle). Just got 240v down my left arm from the switch on the top of the kettle. In the bin it went.



That's shocking.............OK I'll get me coat


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## Phaeton (5 Sep 2022)

numbnuts said:


> I had to pay £2 10 shillings out of £4 4 shilling and 6 pence


My mother was 1 of 7, as they each walked in through the door on Friday night they had to tip their wages up to my grandmother, if they wanted to buy something or go out on a Saturday night they had to go ask her for some money, this continued until she was 21 & moved out to get married. My grandfather has to tip his wages up as well, at leas whatever was left as he'd have been in the pub since getting paid.


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## fossyant (5 Sep 2022)

Air Fryer. Uses about 1.5KW but the sausages were done in 15 mins. So about 10p at current prices.

Portable Air Con is much less worse than I thought. 640w. Was thinking about 1KW.

What else can I find to test


----------



## gbb (5 Sep 2022)

It feeds itself, the quest for energy saving.
Cooking a roast dinner this afternoon (yesterdays was aborted) put diced swede in the pan to boil...hmmm, carrots can steam on top of that pan. Need a pan of water for some frozen broccoli for later...that went on top of the carrots to pre heat the water. Three pans, one ring ...Lord, what am I doing


----------



## midlife (5 Sep 2022)

fossyant said:


> Air Fryer. Uses about 1.5KW but the sausages were done in 15 mins. So about 10p at current prices.
> 
> Portable Air Con is much less worse than I thought. 640w. Was thinking about 1KW.
> 
> What else can I find to test




Came across this link on another site about how much appliances will cost to run when the cap goes up

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...it-cost-to-run-appliances-in-uk-energy-crisis

Sorry if it’s been posted before


----------



## fossyant (5 Sep 2022)

gbb said:


> It feeds itself, the quest for energy saving.
> Cooking a roast dinner this afternoon (yesterdays was aborted) put diced swede in the pan to boil...hmmm, carrots can steam on top of that pan. Need a pan of water for some frozen broccoli for later...that went on top of the carrots to pre heat the water. Three pans, one ring ...Lord, what am I doing



We've got a steamer pan. Three pans that stack, two have holes in. They do cook veg very nicely.


----------



## PK99 (5 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> My mother was 1 of 7, as they each walked in through the door on Friday night they had to tip their wages up to my grandmother, if they wanted to buy something or go out on a Saturday night they had to go ask her for some money, this continued until she was 21 & moved out to get married. My grandfather has to tip his wages up as well, at leas whatever was left as he'd have been in the pub since getting paid.



My mum, born in 1913, did the same from when she started work in the local mill at age 13, till she got married aged 25 in 1938


----------



## mjr (5 Sep 2022)

gbb said:


> Three pans, one ring ...Lord, what am I doing


A dangerous game of Jenga? 

A much less successful internet craze sequel video?


----------



## Jameshow (5 Sep 2022)

gbb said:


> Its perhaps human nature for the / some young to expect it to continue as it always did...free.
> My son is back home, only get minimal benefits but we still charge him £100 per month...which tbf is a chunk out of those benefits but waddayado ? He's an adult now.
> That includes food, hot water, whatever he always needed as a kid.
> He is negotiating it down, he want to buy his own food, tbf it is difficult getting / knowing what he eats / wants so we are kinda in agreement, probably charge him a nominal £40 a month, no food. The reality is, he will still eat some of ours, I know that but again, waddayado ?
> ...



I feel your pain, my son us the same coming up to 18, anxiety and depression dropped out I school from bullying then social groups. 

1 GCSE English. Grade 7 (B) so can easily do the work. 

Selling clothes on eBay ATM struggles to stick at anything. 

Why I don't know! younger sister 15 decided medicine at Exeter / Lancaster!


----------



## Regular.Cyclist (6 Sep 2022)

midlife said:


> Came across this link on another site about how much appliances will cost to run when the cap goes up
> 
> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...it-cost-to-run-appliances-in-uk-energy-crisis
> 
> Sorry if it’s been posted before



Some things on that chart will have a wide range of costs.

One such item is the dishwasher. Ours has a 30 minute, 35 degrees C, program that is more than ample and inexpensive to run.


----------



## Phaeton (6 Sep 2022)

Regular.Cyclist said:


> One such item is the dishwasher. Ours has a 30 minute, 35 degrees C, program that is more than ample and inexpensive to run.


Ours is bloody ridiculous, even on Eco it takes about 3 hours


----------



## keithmac (6 Sep 2022)

We've got a 2nd clothes drier now for bedding, used the tumble drier a lot in winter but that eats electricity for breakfast so only an emergency use item now!.


----------



## oldwheels (6 Sep 2022)

Just got my latest bill from SSE. My consumption is down by 24% but the standing charge is 52p per day which is outrageous.


----------



## fossyant (6 Sep 2022)

oldwheels said:


> Just got my latest bill from SSE. My consumption is down by 24% but the standing charge is 52p per day which is outrageous.



People talk about not paying, the biggest way to affect this situation is to slash use - hurts the companies as they won't get a rise in revenue.


----------



## cougie uk (6 Sep 2022)

fossyant said:


> People talk about not paying, the biggest way to affect this situation is to slash use - hurts the companies as they won't get a rise in revenue.



I don't think they're making huge profits though. Radio 4 looked into it and it was something like £60 per household. 

We've all been far too lax for years with cheap power.

We'd be silly to use more power than we need.


----------



## jowwy (6 Sep 2022)

cougie uk said:


> I don't think they're making huge profits though. Radio 4 looked into it and it was something like £60 per household.
> 
> We've all been far too lax for years with cheap power.
> 
> We'd be silly to use more power than we need.



So billions in profit isnt huge???

E.on made £3.7b in the first 6mths of the year


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## cougie uk (6 Sep 2022)

jowwy said:


> So billions in profit isnt huge???
> 
> E.on made £3.7b in the first 6mths of the year



I'm just going from the program. If they did it for free your bill would be £5 cheaper a month. 

The problem isn't the profit.


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## nickyboy (6 Sep 2022)

It looks like the "average" household bill will get capped off at about £2k (as opposed to something like £5k), having been running consistently for many years at about £1k. The downside on this is that the current plan seems to be to hold bills at £2k average for a number of years beyond the point where they naturally would fall back towards the historical £1k mark

So we all may have to get used to energy being twice the price of historical norms for a good number of years. The good from this, of course, is that it will hopefully make us more energy conscious and energy efficient. The bad is the most vulnerable in society will continue to need support with basics like keeping warm


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## MrGrumpy (6 Sep 2022)

Just moved onto the variable rate as of today . This is mental truly mental


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## cougie uk (6 Sep 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> View attachment 660176
> 
> Just moved onto the variable rate as of today . This is mental truly mental



That's just hideous. 

And for businesses who don't have a cap - how can they carry on ?


----------



## fossyant (6 Sep 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> View attachment 660176
> 
> Just moved onto the variable rate as of today . This is mental truly mental



Have you been able to stick the value of the DD where you want, not what your supplier is saying ? I've been overpaying by over £120 per month since April. We've slashed the 'use' and April rates meant we were paying £200. As of 'now' Scottish Power are indicating £600 per month as the DD for the new October Rates (I'm paying £330 and will be £500 in credit). SP wouldn't let me drop below £330 pm on line, so if I include the £400 refund I requested a few months back, I'd have been £900 in credit. Their predictions are going off previous 12 months, so if like many folk, you've cut use, they will still be looking at at least 6 months of prior high use in calculating the next 12 months.

Excluding what may happen in the next few days, I shouldn't be paying more than £400 per month at the new rates, but if SP insist on £600, I'll be on the phone as I'm in credit by a fair amount that will cover Winter - gas mainly will increase.


----------



## fossyant (6 Sep 2022)

roubaixtuesday said:


> @Moderators - this is NACA all the way down now, shirley?
> 
> I mean, I've all sorts of opinions on the subject but unless this thread stays to practicalities of what to switch off and when or the like, it's all highly political.



There is still lots of practical stuff - I've been posting a fair few observations ! Keep an eye on the DD's.


----------



## cougie uk (6 Sep 2022)

roubaixtuesday said:


> @Moderators - this is NACA all the way down now, shirley?
> 
> I mean, I've all sorts of opinions on the subject but unless this thread stays to practicalities of what to switch off and when or the like, it's all highly political.



What's upsetting you?


----------



## fossyant (6 Sep 2022)

cougie uk said:


> What's upsetting you?



The bills


----------



## Mo1959 (6 Sep 2022)

cougie uk said:


> What's upsetting you?



Probably that we are managing to discuss it sensibly without arguing unlike the other place!


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## fossyant (6 Sep 2022)

If the prices get fixed as they currently are (April rate) then it's manageable for many, although I'd still like to see more support for people like my niece on a pre-pay meter with one income and two kids in rented property.


----------



## jowwy (6 Sep 2022)

roubaixtuesday said:


> @Moderators - this is NACA all the way down now, shirley?
> 
> I mean, I've all sorts of opinions on the subject but unless this thread stays to practicalities of what to switch off and when or the like, it's all highly political.



its money matters and all this thread is to do with money....no need to move it too naca at all


----------



## Regular.Cyclist (6 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Ours is bloody ridiculous, even on Eco it takes about 3 hours



Wow! Even our longest program is held that. It is a particularly old machine? Ours is around 5 y old being bought new when I moved to where I am now.


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## SpokeyDokey (6 Sep 2022)

roubaixtuesday said:


> @Moderators - this is NACA all the way down now, shirley?
> 
> I mean, I've all sorts of opinions on the subject but unless this thread stays to practicalities of what to switch off and when or the like, it's all highly political.



I agree with your flag to the Mods and that the thread is veering into NACA territory.

It is also well behaved too.

Nonetheless rules are rules and my view would be that the thread stays here but an in-thread reminder be put in place to stay on-track and stick to the practicalities of managing the situation and not debate any overarching political factors.


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## numbnuts (6 Sep 2022)

I don't want to go to NACA  all I want is how to cook my dinner more cheaply and to find out the best deal on companys


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## fossyant (6 Sep 2022)

Regular.Cyclist said:


> Wow! Even our longest program is held that. It is a particularly old machine? Ours is around 5 y old being bought new when I moved to where I am now.



I've seen two and a half hours on a wash once our machine weighs the 'contents' - sometimes it will drop the time if a light load is in. Now what's the eco, is it power and water, just water etc. Most of our washes are the 59 minute one, or 15-45 minute programme - there are millions of options on ours and we only really ever use two - same as the old machine.


----------



## SpokeyDokey (6 Sep 2022)

Some optimistic news re price freezing coming out via the press.

Seems more like informed leakage rather than pure speculation.

Maybe I am naive though. 🤔🙂


----------



## DCLane (6 Sep 2022)

Ditto to @SpokeyDokey & @numbnuts - some ideas would be helpful.

As for dishwashers, my Blomberg's got a 'quick' 58-minute cycle that works and the Blomberg washing machine has a 28-minute one. Add in a couple of 12-minute spin drys and there's no need for a tumble drier. It is a washer-drier but I don't think we've used it as such since purchasing in April. Both use little power as a result.

The main usage we've got is computers; three are on 16-24 hours a day, particularly with me working from home and mine's dual-monitor. However, I'm going back on-site at the university shortly so that usage will go down.

For me the cost isn't currently an issue as I've another year left on a 2-year fixed-rate scheme, but am looking at ideas to improve energy usage in the mean-time.


----------



## PeteXXX (6 Sep 2022)

My dishwashers most economical cycle, according to the manual, takes 3 hrs 10 minutes. It uses less water & electricity.


----------



## cougie uk (6 Sep 2022)

I don't think we've used the tumbler in a year now. But if you've got a few kids I'd imagine it's harder not to need it.


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## Milkfloat (6 Sep 2022)

Long cycles on appliances are usually significantly cheaper than short for the same cleaning power as on the long cycles items are left to soak. Your washing machine and dishwasher are not turning/heating for all 3 hours.


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## PK99 (6 Sep 2022)

oldwheels said:


> Just got my latest bill from SSE. My consumption is down by 24% but the standing charge is 52p per day which is outrageous.




Standing charges have increased to cover the costs associated with the Supplier of Last Resort arrangements, when suppliers went bust. So you can thank the people who swapped around BackBedroomGas.co.uk deals for part of that. They got cheap deals, but are now on standard tariff so made no net saving but the rest if us pay more. Hey Ho!


----------



## Milkfloat (6 Sep 2022)

PK99 said:


> Standing charges have increased to cover the costs associated with the Supplier of Last Resort arrangements, when suppliers went bust. So you can thank the people who swapped around BackBedroomGas.co.uk deals for part of that. They got cheap deals, but are now on standard tariff so made no net saving but the rest if us pay more. Hey Ho!



Probably fairer to blame the companies and the regulators than the customers. Pop over to NACA and post a thread about it.


----------



## jowwy (6 Sep 2022)

Go solar......will reduce your electrical bill tenfold. But not everyone can do that and as the thread title is Enery Bill increases and not Suggesestions to reduce energy bills


----------



## jowwy (6 Sep 2022)

Milkfloat said:


> Probably fairer to blame the companies and the regulators than the customers. Pop over to NACA and post a thread about it.



not everything political needs to go into naca........look at the rules put in place, which does state some political stuff can remain. Due to this being the money section, i believe the thread should stay here for all too see and add comments


----------



## youngoldbloke (6 Sep 2022)

PK99 said:


> Standing charges have increased to cover the costs associated with the Supplier of Last Resort arrangements, when suppliers went bust. So you can thank the people who swapped around BackBedroomGas.co.uk deals for part of that. They got cheap deals, but are now on standard tariff so made no net saving but the rest if us pay more. Hey Ho!



I've always swapped around. In fact we were encouraged to do so. Must have saved thousands over the years. As always if the deal looked too good to be true, it probably was


----------



## Phaeton (6 Sep 2022)

Mo1959 said:


> Probably that we are managing to discuss it sensibly without arguing unlike the other place!


This in spades, there has been an odd comment as it's difficult to discuss this type of issue without bringing in the current climate, but from what I've seen that's all its been a comment & it's not been discussed nor slid into an argument


SpokeyDokey said:


> Some optimistic news re price freezing coming out via the press.
> 
> Seems more like informed leakage rather than pure speculation.
> 
> Maybe I am naive though. 🤔🙂


Hang on ere, whose now introducing current affairs


----------



## Phaeton (6 Sep 2022)

Regular.Cyclist said:


> Wow! Even our longest program is held that. It is a particularly old machine? Ours is around 5 y old being bought new when I moved to where I am now.



It's quite a modern Bosch, 5 years old at the very most, daft thing is it wasn't used for the first 2 years & it wasn't until I started whinging that we bought it & never used it did we start to use it, wish I'd kept my mouth shut now.


----------



## Regular.Cyclist (6 Sep 2022)

Milkfloat said:


> Long cycles on appliances are usually significantly cheaper than short for the same cleaning power as on the long cycles items are left to soak. Your washing machine and dishwasher are not turning/heating for all 3 hours.



I have watched the smart meter monitor whilst my dishwasher is on and it looks to be very efficient on the short cycle. Not only is it short, 30 minutes, but it’s only 35 degrees, by far the lowest temperature setting on the machine. Still gets things clean too.


----------



## oldwheels (6 Sep 2022)

fossyant said:


> People talk about not paying, the biggest way to affect this situation is to slash use - hurts the companies as they won't get a rise in revenue.



Trouble is there is only much you can slash. I could possibly shave another couple of percent off but the increase in price negates that.
Getting a bit political perhaps but the annoying thing is that we export cheap electricity from renewables which is sold back to us at a higher price due to the increase in gas prices elsewhere.


----------



## SpokeyDokey (6 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> This in spades, there has been an odd comment as it's difficult to discuss this type of issue without bringing in the current climate, but from what I've seen that's all its been a comment & it's not been discussed nor slid into an argument
> 
> Hang on ere, whose now introducing current affairs



In all honesty I think it's okay to mention eg something that is possibly good news that people want/need to hear.

It's when comments that ascribe something posted to a particular political party that the problem arises ie when the post then morphs into a polarised debate.


----------



## cougie uk (6 Sep 2022)

Regular.Cyclist said:


> I have watched the smart meter monitor whilst my dishwasher is on and it looks to be very efficient on the short cycle. Not only is it short, 30 minutes, but it’s only 35 degrees, by far the lowest temperature setting on the machine. Still gets things clean too.



Yes it's apparently more economic to run a decent load size in the washer than doing it manually. 

Possibly more economic to let the dog lick everything clean but not sure about the health implications.


----------



## fossyant (6 Sep 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Yes it's apparently more economic to run a decent load size in the washer than doing it manually.
> 
> Possibly more economic to let the dog lick everything clean but not sure about the health implications.



Hang on a minute, you mean a dishwasher is more efficient than me ? - must persuade the boss to 'upgrade me'.


----------



## gbb (6 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Ours is bloody ridiculous, even on Eco it takes about 3 hours



It may depend on the make model. Ours at fast wash is 40c around 30 minutes. Eco wash is 30c for around 2.5 hours. Lower temps, longer wash to allow the detergents to work longer. It seems to work got us.


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## gbb (6 Sep 2022)

Jameshow said:


> Why I don't know! younger sister 15 decided medicine at Exeter / Lancaster!


It's a lottery and some kids decelop well, some perhaps not so. Other son is British Gas engineer / Trainer well rounded, utterly sensible in everything he does. Daughter, manager of a childcare facility with around 10 staff perhaps, doesn't pay well but you have to have.lots of level 3 qualifications, she's done well knows her stuff.
Son at home just doesn't fit societies ideal model , he's different, you can't punish someone because they're different. Often thought, we're it not for us, he'd likely end up homeless such are his lacksadaisical ways. Again, whaddayado ?


----------



## classic33 (6 Sep 2022)

fossyant said:


> Hang on a minute, you mean a dishwasher is more efficient than me ? - must persuade the boss to 'upgrade me'.


Newer model!


----------



## Alex321 (6 Sep 2022)

jowwy said:


> So billions in profit isnt huge???
> 
> E.on made £3.7b in the first 6mths of the year



It is meaningless talking about profit in terms of absolute money. That is only used when trying to hammer big business in "news" stories.

Their net profit margin last year was 4.53%, which is a much more meaningful figure.

The latest ONS figures (from 2019) say that average net profit margin for non-financial companies was 9.3%, so their return is only half of that.


----------



## jowwy (6 Sep 2022)

Alex321 said:


> It is meaningless talking about profit in terms of absolute money. That is only used when trying to hammer big business in "news" stories.
> 
> Their net profit margin last year was 4.53%, which is a much more meaningful figure.
> 
> The latest ONS figures (from 2019) say that average net profit margin for non-financial companies was 9.3%, so their return is only half of that.



so when they say tax the profit of energy companies, what figure are they using as profit?? 4.53% or £3.6billion??........i bet its the 3.6 billion


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## Alex321 (6 Sep 2022)

jowwy said:


> so when they say tax the profit of energy companies, what figure are they using as profit?? 4.53% or £3.6billion??........i bet its the 3.6 billion



Of course, because that is the figure that makes their profit look like a lot.

Calling for any sort of "windfall tax" on the energy companies at the moment would be mendacious, since they have not suddenly made high percentage profits, nor even any large gross amounts of profits they weren't making before.


----------



## Phaeton (6 Sep 2022)

Careful please we've got to 80 pages without a spat, agree to disagree & move on.


----------



## MrGrumpy (6 Sep 2022)

cougie uk said:


> That's just hideous.
> 
> And for businesses who don't have a cap - how can they carry on ?



It is hideous however their forecast on the variable current rate has me at £370 a month . I can manage that but I’m looking to see where I can cut my usage. 
I think their quotes now are also based on the cap increasing if nothing is done. However I am going to go round and see what we can switch off in this internet connected house. 
I mean the amount a month they want is a bloody mortgage payment !!!


----------



## MrGrumpy (6 Sep 2022)

fossyant said:


> Have you been able to stick the value of the DD where you want, not what your supplier is saying ? I've been overpaying by over £120 per month since April. We've slashed the 'use' and April rates meant we were paying £200. As of 'now' Scottish Power are indicating £600 per month as the DD for the new October Rates (I'm paying £330 and will be £500 in credit). SP wouldn't let me drop below £330 pm on line, so if I include the £400 refund I requested a few months back, I'd have been £900 in credit. Their predictions are going off previous 12 months, so if like many folk, you've cut use, they will still be looking at at least 6 months of prior high use in calculating the next 12 months.
> 
> Excluding what may happen in the next few days, I shouldn't be paying more than £400 per month at the new rates, but if SP insist on £600, I'll be on the phone as I'm in credit by a fair amount that will cover Winter - gas mainly will increase.



I’m not going to do anything with my DD, I’m waiting to see what gets announced. I’m in the black to the tune of £370 just now but it is going down now. I will see what I can do to reduce and soften the blow . The current variable rate sees me on approx £370 a month. Which is still ridiculous however manageable for now.


----------



## midlife (6 Sep 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> It is hideous however their forecast on the variable current rate has me at £370 a month . I can manage that but I’m looking to see where I can cut my usage.
> I think their quotes now are also based on the cap increasing if nothing is done. However I am going to go round and see what we can switch off in this internet connected house.
> I mean the amount a month they want is a bloody mortgage payment !!!



Average mortgage payment is about £750, mine is way, way above that. The mortgage payment buys a house in the end. The huge energy bill is just a huge bill for nothing very tangible.


----------



## jowwy (6 Sep 2022)

midlife said:


> Average mortgage payment is about £750, mine is way, way above that. The mortgage payment buys a house in the end. The huge energy bill is just a huge bill for nothing very tangible.



Except for the use of electric and gas…..so pretty tangible really.


----------



## cougie uk (6 Sep 2022)

midlife said:


> Average mortgage payment is about £750, mine is way, way above that. The mortgage payment buys a house in the end. The huge energy bill is just a huge bill for nothing very tangible.



Jeez. That's a big mortgage. Youngsters have it tough with payments like this.


----------



## midlife (6 Sep 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Jeez. That's a big mortgage. Youngsters have it tough with payments like this.



Yep, tried to find some stats on mortgages, rents and house deposits. Scared me for my kids ! Mortgage average £750, rent £800 odd and deposit £58k. Probably a bit hit and miss but Scary numbers and then have to find so much extra for energy.


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## Jameshow (6 Sep 2022)

midlife said:


> Yep, tried to find some stats on mortgages, rents and house deposits. Scared me for my kids ! Mortgage average £750, rent £800 odd and deposit £58k. Probably a bit hit and miss but Scary numbers and then have to find so much extra for energy.



Deposit £58k!!😥😥😥

London???


----------



## SpokeyDokey (7 Sep 2022)

An old Guardian article and from a French perspective.

An interesting read that may possibly help understand the malaise in the British property market:

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/jan/14/why-are-brits-so-obsessed-with-buying-their-own-homes


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## FishFright (7 Sep 2022)

numbnuts said:


> I don't want to go to NACA  all I want is how to cook my dinner more cheaply and to find out the best deal on companys



Move to France ?


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## fossyant (7 Sep 2022)

So, speculation on what proposals will be for addressing the energy costs ?

I suspect charges held at current values (KWh) and the £400 being left in place. October increase stopped/alternative funding to Energy Suppliers ?


----------



## jowwy (7 Sep 2022)

fossyant said:


> So, speculation on what proposals will be for addressing the energy costs ?
> 
> I suspect charges held at current values (KWh) and the £400 being left in place. October increase stopped/alternative funding to Energy Suppliers ?



looks like it will be £2.5k and not the current £1.97k.......funded by general taxation, with the £400 left in place


----------



## gavroche (7 Sep 2022)

Just had my monthly statement from Octopus. I provide a meter reading every month. I am 157 pounds in credit so it will come in handy when winter starts properly I guess, hopefully later in the year / new year. By then my credit will be a be higher.


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## Phaeton (7 Sep 2022)

jowwy said:


> looks like it will be £2.5k and not the current £1.97k.......funded by general taxation, with the £400 left in place


Sorry not heard anything about this & at the risk of straying into the dark place, they intend to cap everybody at £2.5K?

If that is the case where is the incentive to get people to think about their usage & make changes, although I appreciate £2.5K is a huge jump for some.


----------



## jowwy (7 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Sorry not heard anything about this & at the risk of straying into the dark place, they intend to cap everybody at £2.5K?
> 
> If that is the case where is the incentive to get people to think about their usage & make changes, although I appreciate £2.5K is a huge jump for some.



not a clue...not my policy. But yes, that is what they are proposing with our current energy bills ( bringing it back to the OP)

Do you not watch the news or have a TV lol??


----------



## Phaeton (7 Sep 2022)

jowwy said:


> Do you not watch the news or have a TV lol??


I try to avoid the news as much as possible, they are morons who are making the news (that is not party specific) & they are morons those that are reporting on the news, they are only interested in sensationalism. I find that with my head in the sand that I can control my anxiety & depression to a liveable amount, once I start to keep up to date I get so furious about things I cannot control which is not good for me.

But back on topic I have just boiled the kettle & watched my electric meter not move as the solar is currently producing 4.17 kW although I'll be honest not knowing exactly what that is.


----------



## SpokeyDokey (7 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I try to avoid the news as much as possible, they are morons who are making the news (that is not party specific) & they are morons those that are reporting on the news, they are only interested in sensationalism. I find that with my head in the sand that I can control my anxiety & depression to a liveable amount, once I start to keep up to date I get so furious about things I cannot control which is not good for me.
> 
> But back on topic I have just boiled the kettle & watched my electric meter not move as the solar is currently producing 4.17 kW although I'll be honest not knowing exactly what that is.



It’s on BBC website - policy announced tomorrow so nothing confirmed but my guess it is 'official' leakage.


----------



## gzoom (7 Sep 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Jeez. That's a big mortgage. Youngsters have it tough with payments like this.



We live way outside London, lovely house + plot we moved into 6 years ago before our daughter was born. I've just taken up some additional borrowing for building works before interst rates shot up.

Essentially roughly speaking £450k mortgage debt, repayment period is 15 years as I want to clear the mortgage way before retirement. Fixed at 2% for the next 10 years.....You can work out the figures, but let's just say £750/month isnt going to quite cover it .


----------



## gzoom (7 Sep 2022)

jowwy said:


> looks like it will be £2.5k and not the current £1.97k.......funded by general taxation, with the £400 left in place



The fixed cost is great, but our new PM is also CUTTING tax, proposed new £80k for 40% rate and drop in NI. It means higher earners will be getting a £6-7k reduction in tax.....that will help with the mortgage .


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## Regular.Cyclist (7 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Sorry not heard anything about this & at the risk of straying into the dark place, they intend to cap everybody at £2.5K?
> 
> If that is the case where is the incentive to get people to think about their usage & make changes, although I appreciate £2.5K is a huge jump for some.



The £2.5k is likely to be the cost for an average household.

That will give a cost per unit rate and standing charge against what bills will be calculated.


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## Alex321 (7 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Sorry not heard anything about this & at the risk of straying into the dark place, they intend to cap everybody at £2.5K?
> 
> If that is the case where is the incentive to get people to think about their usage & make changes, although I appreciate £2.5K is a huge jump for some.



They won't be capping anybody at £2.5K.

Talking about a cap at £2.5K is shorthand for saying the KwH rate will be capped at a level which means the average bill will be £2.5K.

It annoys me a bit that people keep bandying about these figures as though they are the actual cap - leading to misunderstandings such as yours.


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## jowwy (7 Sep 2022)

Alex321 said:


> They won't be capping anybody at £2.5K.
> 
> Talking about a cap at £2.5K is shorthand for saying the KwH rate will be capped at a level which means the average bill will be £2.5K.
> 
> It annoys me a bit that people keep bandying about these figures as though they are the actual cap - leading to misunderstandings such as yours.



mine will be a hell of a lot lower than £2.5k.....and even less after fitting solar in october. But yes its the average bill, i think we already know that.


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## Alex321 (7 Sep 2022)

jowwy said:


> mine will be a hell of a lot lower than £2.5k.....and even less after fitting solar in october. But yes its the average bill, i think we already know that.



We should already know it, but the way the figure keeps being bandied around, many people don't realise that and think the actual cap is that much per year, rather than being a per-unit cap. Even in this thread, which I think are mostly reasonably intelligent people, we have seen a couple of examples


----------



## presta (7 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> If that is the case where is the incentive to get people to think about their usage & make changes


There isn't any, that's the problem, and it's not new.

Because there's such a large level of wealth inequality, we've had a situation for years in which the poor struggle to heat the home whilst the rich can afford to waste fuel, and you can't fix that with a single rate tariff where the 10,000th kWh costs the same as the 100th kWh, because attending to one problem exacerbates the other. What's needed is a *progressive *tariff so that it's affordable to use a sustainable amount of fuel, but cripplingly expensive to be profligate, but what we actually have is a regressive system, where the standing charge means a light user is paying proportionally more than a heavy user: the rich and profligate are subsidised by the poor and frugal. The price per kWh needs to rise in bands according to how much you're using, the same way income tax does, and the standing charge needs ditching.


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## nickyboy (7 Sep 2022)

Alex321 said:


> They won't be capping anybody at £2.5K.
> 
> Talking about a cap at £2.5K is shorthand for saying the KwH rate will be capped at a level which means the average bill will be £2.5K.
> 
> It annoys me a bit that people keep bandying about these figures as though they are the actual cap - leading to misunderstandings such as yours.



Wot he said

The issue will be how this "debt" will be held and how it will be ultimately repaid. My understanding is that the utility suppliers will supply at (say) 25p per KwHr, even when the fair price in the open market should be (say) 45p per KwHr. The suppliers will be allowed to borrow from the Government (ie you and me) to make up this shortfall of 20p per KwHr. As and when the open market price falls to say 15p per KwHr, the utility suppliers will charge 15p plus a 10p surcharge (so 25p per KwHr) and use this surcharge to repay the borrowings from the government

So we will all be paying less than the spike price but we will all be creating a debt and that debt will be repaid via inflated prices when the true price settles back to normal levels

As I mentioned upthread, this is a fundamental shift For many years the average price for energy was £1,000 per household. It will be £2500 (or whatever number is chosen) for many years to come. So energy saving devices become more economic, renewable sources become more economic, people will have to get used to being less profligate with their energy consumption


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## Fab Foodie (7 Sep 2022)

*Average price cap unit rates
Customer with typical usage, paying by direct debit**​
 Last price cap period
*(1 April - 30 September 2022)*Current price cap period
(1 October - 31 December 2022)Electricity£0.28 per kWh
Daily standing charge: £0.45£0.52 per kWh
Daily standing charge: £0.46Gas£0.07 per kWh
Daily standing charge: £0.27£0.15 per kWh
Daily standing charge: £0.28


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## Milkfloat (7 Sep 2022)

nickyboy said:


> Wot he said
> 
> The issue will be how this "debt" will be held and how it will be ultimately repaid. My understanding is that the utility suppliers will supply at (say) 25p per KwHr, even when the fair price in the open market should be (say) 45p per KwHr. The suppliers will be allowed to borrow from the Government (ie you and me) to make up this shortfall of 20p per KwHr. As and when the open market price falls to say 15p per KwHr, the utility suppliers will charge 15p plus a 10p surcharge (so 25p per KwHr) and use this surcharge to repay the borrowings from the government
> 
> ...



I don't think it has been announced how this will work - the latest rumours just seem to be general taxation, rather than future use. General taxation may help the less well off but does not do a huge amount to incentivise less usage.


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## MrGrumpy (7 Sep 2022)

gzoom said:


> We live way outside London, lovely house + plot we moved into 6 years ago before our daughter was born. I've just taken up some additional borrowing for building works before interst rates shot up.
> 
> Essentially roughly speaking £450k mortgage debt, repayment period is 15 years as I want to clear the mortgage way before retirement. Fixed at 2% for the next 10 years.....You can work out the figures, but let's just say £750/month isnt going to quite cover it .



Fffs choked out n my champers  . Thought I had a big mortgage when you moved into this pad !! Ooft


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## MrGrumpy (7 Sep 2022)

Fab Foodie said:


> *Average price cap unit rates*​*Customer with typical usage, paying by direct debit**​
> Last price cap period
> *(1 April - 30 September 2022)*Current price cap period
> (1 October - 31 December 2022)Electricity£0.28 per kWh
> ...



That’s the end for a lot of folk and worse to come in Jan if left alone !!


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## MrGrumpy (7 Sep 2022)

presta said:


> There isn't any, that's the problem, and it's not new.
> 
> Because there's such a large level of wealth inequality, we've had a situation for years in which the poor struggle to heat the home whilst the rich can afford to waste fuel, and you can't fix that with a single rate tariff where the 10,000th kWh costs the same as the 100th kWh, because attending to one problem exacerbates the other. What's needed is a *progressive *tariff so that it's affordable to use a sustainable amount of fuel, but cripplingly expensive to be profligate, but what we actually have is a regressive system, where the standing charge means a light user is paying proportionally more than a heavy user: the rich and profligate are subsidised by the poor and frugal. The price per kWh needs to rise in bands according to how much you're using, the same way income tax does, and the standing charge needs ditching.



So what about businesses!? They use can use a lot more and I’m not talking even factories here . Anyway this is defo heading into NACA territory


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## Phaeton (7 Sep 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> So what about businesses!? They use can use a lot more and I’m not talking even factories here . Anyway this is defo heading into NACA territory



It was nice whilst it lasted, must be a slow day over on the dark side


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## jowwy (7 Sep 2022)

Anyway lets get back on topic……so the naca mob dont destroy it.

Anyone else have ideas on reducing bills, other than a new kettle or 3


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## SpokeyDokey (7 Sep 2022)

jowwy said:


> Anyway lets get back on topic……so the naca mob dont destroy it.
> 
> Anyone else have ideas on reducing bills, other than a new kettle or 3



Has anyone suggested hooking a Turbo Trainer up to a generator yet?


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## Regular.Cyclist (7 Sep 2022)

I’ve become much more aware of my usage since getting my smart meters fitted. I guess that’s the idea!

Generally, with all the background stuff on, it sits at 4p per hour for electricity. I have turned off a Raspberry Pi )with a TV tuner HAT), an Amazon Echo Dot in the dining room, an Amazon Echo in the spare bedroom, a Mac Mini (that functions as a media serve) and a double HDD dock which stores all the media in the two attached 6Tb drives. Each now only get switched on when we plan to use it.

I try turning off my Mesh network and going back to using the router WiFi but that was a step too far and it has gone back on.

I didn’t need to do that from a financial basis but feel it is worthwhile from an environmental perspective.


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## nickyboy (7 Sep 2022)

jowwy said:


> Anyway lets get back on topic……so the naca mob dont destroy it.
> 
> Anyone else have ideas on reducing bills, other than a new kettle or 3



Who made you the King of the Energy Bills thread?

The issues resulting from what is happening to costs of energy are far greater than what appliance you should use


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## jowwy (7 Sep 2022)

nickyboy said:


> Who made you the King of the Energy Bills thread?
> 
> The issues resulting from what is happening to costs of energy are far greater than what appliance you should use



But this is not naca and we are trying not to make into a political debate…….or you can just carry on and get the thread locked and upsetting a lot of members who have tried to keep it unpolitical

your choice


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## nickyboy (7 Sep 2022)

jowwy said:


> But this is not naca and we are trying not to make into a political debate…….or you can just carry on and get the thread locked and upsetting a lot of members who have tried to keep it unpolitical
> 
> your choice



Biggest issue facing households and you want to distil it down to whether to buy a kettle or not

If you want a discussion on how to save money on energy, the key question is how bad is it going to be and for how long as this determines what lifestyle changes you make and what capital spend you may or may not invest into reducing energy consumption. 

But sure, kettles, right?


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## Phaeton (7 Sep 2022)

nickyboy said:


> Biggest issue facing households and you want to distil it down to whether to buy a kettle or not
> 
> If you want a discussion on how to save money on energy, the key question is how bad is it going to be and for how long as this determines what lifestyle changes you make and what capital spend you may or may not invest into reducing energy consumption.
> 
> But sure, kettles, right?


As stated if you want to go MP bashing on either side about the policies that they have or have not implemented all means do so over in the dark place, this thread is not about that, granted it does stray & bump along the ceiling but so far we've kept it sensible & I would request that you don't spoil it. In fact there you go that's another thread you could start over there, how we're getting it so wrong


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## fossyant (7 Sep 2022)

jowwy said:


> Anyway lets get back on topic……so the naca mob dont destroy it.
> 
> Anyone else have ideas on reducing bills, other than a new kettle or 3



Electrocute yourself on the current kettle so it's thrown in the bin ? Not replaced ours yet after I did that the other day. 😄


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## jowwy (7 Sep 2022)

nickyboy said:


> Biggest issue facing households and you want to distil it down to whether to buy a kettle or not
> 
> If you want a discussion on how to save money on energy, the key question is how bad is it going to be and for how long as this determines what lifestyle changes you make and what capital spend you may or may not invest into reducing energy consumption.
> 
> But sure, kettles, right?



Theres also a solar discussion in the DIY thread too…….capital spend and investment in reducing energy consumption is in there. Fill your boots


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## nickyboy (7 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> As stated if you want to go MP bashing on either side about the policies that they have or have not implemented all means do so over in the dark place, this thread is not about that, granted it does stray & bump along the ceiling but so far we've kept it sensible & I would request that you don't spoil it. In fact there you go that's another thread you could start over there, how we're getting it so wrong



Please give me one example where I have been "MP bashing on either side" etc. Take a look at my posts, they are an attempt to improve the appreciation of (a) how bad its going to be (b) how long its going to be bad for. The issue is how does an average household find an extra £1,500 a year for the next, say, ten years? Or can they find a way, given we are talking 10 years, not 10 months, to reduce energy consumption in a way to offset the £1,500 per year? A new kettle isn't going to cut it I'm afraid


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## Jameshow (7 Sep 2022)

presta said:


> There isn't any, that's the problem, and it's not new.
> 
> Because there's such a large level of wealth inequality, we've had a situation for years in which the poor struggle to heat the home whilst the rich can afford to waste fuel, and you can't fix that with a single rate tariff where the 10,000th kWh costs the same as the 100th kWh, because attending to one problem exacerbates the other. What's needed is a *progressive *tariff so that it's affordable to use a sustainable amount of fuel, but cripplingly expensive to be profligate, but what we actually have is a regressive system, where the standing charge means a light user is paying proportionally more than a heavy user: the rich and profligate are subsidised by the poor and frugal. The price per kWh needs to rise in bands according to how much you're using, the same way income tax does, and the standing charge needs ditching.



Not to mention pre pay meters.....


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## Phaeton (7 Sep 2022)

nickyboy said:


> Please give me one example where I have been "MP bashing on either side" etc. Take a look at my posts, they are an attempt to improve the appreciation of (a) how bad its going to be (b) how long its going to be bad for. The issue is how does an average household find an extra £1,500 a year for the next, say, ten years? Or can they find a way, given we are talking 10 years, not 10 months, to reduce energy consumption in a way to offset the £1,500 per year? A new kettle isn't going to cut it I'm afraid



if you can't see what you're doing then unfortunately I'm not going to tell you, go discuss it in NACA


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## Pat "5mph" (7 Sep 2022)

gzoom said:


> Essentially roughly speaking £450k mortgage debt,


Omg! Your mortgage is almost as much as I will earn in a lifetime (40 years est) of work, and I'm no stranger to 12/14 hours shifts!


gzoom said:


> higher earners will be getting a £6-7k reduction in tax.....that will help with the mortgage


If I'd post my opinion on this, I'll have to ban myself


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## pawl (7 Sep 2022)

Getting to much like NACA for me


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## nickyboy (7 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> if you can't see what you're doing then unfortunately I'm not going to tell you, go discuss it in NACA



So that is a "no I can't" I guess


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## Regular.Cyclist (7 Sep 2022)

Pat 5mph said:


> Omg! Your mortgage is almost as much as I will earn in a lifetime (40 years est) of work, and I'm no stranger to 12/14 hours shifts!
> 
> If I'd post my opinion on this, I'll have to ban myself


Unfortunately energy bill increases are only one factor, and on that people can, to a limited extent, do something about.

They are a lot of people who have large mortgages, often stretching themselves to get it, that are unprepared for the interest rate rises that are coming. It’s a perfect storm. 

Those people will need to start shedding thing, subscriptions, memberships, etc, as well as looking for creative ways to reduce their energy consumption. They may get more help than those who _really_ need it but that’s another topic in another forum.


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## DCLane (7 Sep 2022)

Pat 5mph said:


> If I'd post my opinion on this, I'll have to ban myself



@Regular.Cyclist beat me to it ...

As a higher-rate taxpayer I can't see this happening, but it may play to those in the 40% bracket with big mortgages who are now feeling the pinch due to higher energy bills.

In terms of energy saving we've done what we can. Son no. 2 going to university, SWMBO now working five days a week (= increased commuting cost and a bought lunch) plus me back 4/5 days at work (again lunch cost) will reduce daytime energy use.

But ... the trade-off is more washing (work clothes rather than T-shirts, commuter cycling kit for me), travel to visit both sons - with bought dinner when we visit, my bike/SWMBO's car maintenance, etc., all of which balances decreased energy spend. I _perceive _ it being cheaper once the current fixed rate we're on runs out in a year's time and we're hit with a 200% bill rise.


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## PaulSB (7 Sep 2022)

nickyboy said:


> Please give me one example where I have been "MP bashing on either side" etc. Take a look at my posts, they are an attempt to improve the appreciation of (a) how bad its going to be (b) how long its going to be bad for. The issue is how does an average household find an extra £1,500 a year for the next, say, ten years? Or can they find a way, given we are talking 10 years, not 10 months, to reduce energy consumption in a way to offset the £1,500 per year? A new kettle isn't going to cut it I'm afraid



You are spot on with this. My household can fund, I deliberately avoid using "afford", the current increases from October 1st assuming the government does nothing and there is no change.

Aside from making what economies we can at home, which frankly won't make a big difference, we've started to budget our discretionary spending to cope with what is still to come. This energy cost crisis is not going away in 12 months but will be with us for 5-10 years. We're budgeting discretionary spending now in preparation for the future. It is far better to be proactive than reactive.

As an example, and to the amusement of some, I've slashed my cycle cafe spend. I now carry all the food I need and restrict myself to coffee, occasionally with tea cake, when we stop. This is a saving of £750/800pa. On a big ride, 100+ miles, I will have beans on toast as I have health issues which make it essential I eat.

Such choices have a much wider impact than my own budget which is what makes the issue so critical for our government to get right.


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## PaulSB (7 Sep 2022)

British Gas have "reversed" all my bills since November 1st. I am currently £1095.18 in credit.

This company is unbelievable. The sheer levels of incompetence are breathtaking.


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## ColinJ (7 Sep 2022)

PaulSB said:


> British Gas have "reversed" all my bills since November 1st. I am currently £1095.18 in credit.
> 
> This company is unbelievable. The sheer levels of incompetence are breathtaking.



Having failed for the 3rd time in a year to install a working smart gas meter and having now killed the formerly working smart electricity meter, BG have just contacted me about the process..."_Tell us how you feel_"... 

I think I will tell them _exactly _how I feel!


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## classic33 (7 Sep 2022)

ColinJ said:


> Having failed for the 3rd time in a year to install a working smart gas meter and having now killed the formerly working smart electricity meter, BG have just contacted me about the process..."_Tell us how you feel_"...
> 
> I think I will tell them _exactly _how I feel!


Let them know how you really feel then.
They always appreciate honest reviews/reports.


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## Phaeton (8 Sep 2022)

Does anyone have real world values for cooking a chicken in a fan oven as opposed to a gas oven, say for 2 hours?


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## jowwy (8 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Does anyone have real world values for cooking a chicken in a fan oven as opposed to a gas oven, say for 2 hours?



need to know the wattage of the oven to work that out....if its a 1kw oven, then thats 2kwh so 60p, for gas it would be 14p

think i got that right, but im sure there will be some that will come along and put it right if not


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## Regular.Cyclist (8 Sep 2022)

jowwy said:


> need to know the wattage of the oven to work that out....if its a 1kw oven, then thats 2kwh so 60p, for gas it would be 14p
> 
> think i got that right, but im sure there will be some that will come along and put it right if not



The oven heater will run continuously until it nears the set temperature. It should then begin to adjust the mark:space ratio ( heat is on vs off) to prevent an overshoot. It will then cut in and out during the cooking time to maintain temperature. It is not therefore using its full power continuously. 

There are a other factors, including heat lost and hysteresis of the thermostat that will vary depending on the oven.

Constants will be the energy the fan and oven light uses.


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## PK99 (8 Sep 2022)

jowwy said:


> need to know the wattage of the oven to work that out....*if its a 1kw oven, then thats 2kwh so 60p*, for gas it would be 14p
> 
> think i got that right, but im sure there will be some that will come along and put it right if not



The oven element cycles on and off so simple "cooking time x wattage" does not work.

https://blog.thermoworks.com/thermometer/thermal-secrets-oven-calibration/


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## cougie uk (8 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Does anyone have real world values for cooking a chicken in a fan oven as opposed to a gas oven, say for 2 hours?



Gas is cheaper than electric so that would be cheaper than an electric oven. 

Do you mean an air fryer which is basically a small electric oven which would be cheaper than both.


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## jowwy (8 Sep 2022)

PK99 said:


> The oven element cycles on and off so simple "cooking time x wattage" does not work.
> 
> https://blog.thermoworks.com/thermometer/thermal-secrets-oven-calibration/



maybe a should have added the word APPROX...as yes i do know it will cycle on and off, but we dont know how many times that would be. so just a simple calculation shows, gas would be cheaper


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## Phaeton (8 Sep 2022)

I meant a conventional fan electric oven, in comparison to a conventional gas oven, do they electrically fan assist them now? bearing in mind there would be the cost of buying the oven & then handing over a kidney to the plumber to put a feed back into the kitchen. It seems like it's one of those yes you would be better off, but it's going to cost more to be better off.


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## Regular.Cyclist (8 Sep 2022)

Yes, fan assisted gas ovens are available. Never tried, ir even seen, one.

Our household preference is a gas hob and electric oven. The former for greater controllability and the latter for more even cooking.

Induction hobs look interesting and may be a viable alternative, and possibly something we fit in the holiday home we are in the process of buying (as it has no mains gas).


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## cyberknight (8 Sep 2022)

PaulSB said:


> You are spot on with this. My household can fund, I deliberately avoid using "afford", the current increases from October 1st assuming the government does nothing and there is no change.
> 
> Aside from making what economies we can at home, which frankly won't make a big difference, we've started to budget our discretionary spending to cope with what is still to come. This energy cost crisis is not going away in 12 months but will be with us for 5-10 years. We're budgeting discretionary spending now in preparation for the future. It is far better to be proactive than reactive.
> 
> ...


Assuming the October prices go ahead I can see me stopping cake stops and club rides altogether


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## jowwy (8 Sep 2022)

cyberknight said:


> Assuming the* October prices go ahead* I can see me stopping cake stops and club rides altogether



they wont be


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## vickster (8 Sep 2022)

Save some money by stopping eating meat? Apparently chicken has got very costly recently  plant protein is cheaper and doesn't need to be cooked for 2 hours


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## jowwy (8 Sep 2022)

vickster said:


> Save some money by stopping eating meat? Apparently chicken has got very costly recently  plant protein is cheaper and doesn't need to be cooked for 2 hours



NO


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## SpokeyDokey (8 Sep 2022)

jowwy said:


> they wont be



Live statement due about now I think.


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## neil_merseyside (8 Sep 2022)

cyberknight said:


> Assuming the October prices go ahead I can see me stopping cake stops and club rides altogether



Why stop the club ride as well as the cake?


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## jowwy (8 Sep 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Live statement due about now I think.



currently have commons TV on my office tv......shes not in here seat as yet, but they state she is on her way


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## neil_merseyside (8 Sep 2022)

vickster said:


> Save some money by stopping eating meat? Apparently chicken has got very costly recently  plant protein is cheaper and doesn't need to be cooked for 2 hours



2hrs cooking? No wonder you don't like it, must be like shoe leather after 2hrs.


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## SpokeyDokey (8 Sep 2022)

Regular.Cyclist said:


> Unfortunately energy bill increases are only one factor, and on that people can, to a limited extent, do something about.
> 
> They are a lot of people who have large mortgages, often stretching themselves to get it, that are unprepared for the interest rate rises that are coming. It’s a perfect storm.
> 
> Those people will need to start shedding thing, subscriptions, memberships, etc, as well as looking for creative ways to reduce their energy consumption. They may get more help than those who _really_ need it but that’s another topic in another forum.



I think I mentioned before (either this thread or elsewhere) that alternatives to cutting down on electricity consumption do exist.

At the end of the day once you have hit the big stuff anything else is fannying around in the margins.

As said their are possibly/probably other things that could be shed to compensate.

Also, are there any ways to increase income? Is there a non-worker in the household (illnesses etc not withstanding) that could get a p/t job etc. 8 hours a week at Morrisons gets around £4k a year and if that is the only employment there is obviously no tax and NI. Could make a very big difference in some households.


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## Tom... (8 Sep 2022)

vickster said:


> Save some money by stopping eating meat? Apparently chicken has got very costly recently  plant protein is cheaper and doesn't need to be cooked for 2 hours



Lean meat (chicken, low % fat mince, turkey etc.) is currently around 30-40p for 20g of complete protein.

Which plant proteins are available at this price point?


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## vickster (8 Sep 2022)

Tom... said:


> Lean meat (chicken, low % fat mince, turkey etc.) is currently around 30-40p for 20g of complete protein.
> 
> Which plant proteins are available at this price point?



I don't know but this gives some ideas
https://www.muscleandfitness.com/nu...-vs-plant-14-protein-rich-foods-go-head-head/

Meat eaters have been saying how expensive good quality chicken had become (I don't know as I've not bought any meat for 3 years), but if people are asking about how much is the cost of electricity/gas to cook a chicken for 2 hours then perhaps looking at cheaper alternatives which need much less time to cook could be considered


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## Tom... (8 Sep 2022)

vickster said:


> I don't know but this gives some ideas
> https://www.muscleandfitness.com/nu...-vs-plant-14-protein-rich-foods-go-head-head/
> 
> Meat eaters have been saying how expensive good quality chicken had become (I don't know as I've not bought any meat for 3 years), but if people are asking about how much is the cost of electricity/gas to cook a chicken for 2 hours then perhaps looking at cheaper alternatives which need much less time to cook could be considered



But the majority of these are more £ per g, and aren't complete proteins. 

They're also mostly not viable options for meals, I can't put a cup of pumpkin seeds or half a tub of peanut butter with my roast dinner!


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## SpokeyDokey (8 Sep 2022)

Here we go.

Stroppy Speaker today!


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## neil_merseyside (8 Sep 2022)

vickster said:


> I don't know but this gives some ideas
> https://www.muscleandfitness.com/nu...-vs-plant-14-protein-rich-foods-go-head-head/
> 
> Meat eaters have been saying how expensive good quality chicken had become (I don't know as I've not bought any meat for 3 years), but if people are asking about how much is the cost of electricity/gas to cook a chicken for 2 hours then perhaps looking at cheaper alternatives which need much less time to cook could be considered



No one cooks a chicken for 2hrs surely, whole chicken just needs to be spatchcocked (cut either side of spine and flattened) maybe 50mins tops?


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## SpokeyDokey (8 Sep 2022)

Average energy bill capped at £2500 for two years.

Similar support scheme coming for oil CH users.


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## vickster (8 Sep 2022)

Tom... said:


> But the majority of these are more £ per g, and aren't complete proteins.
> 
> They're also mostly not viable options for meals, I can't put a cup of pumpkin seeds or half a tub of peanut butter with my roast dinner!



Up to you to eat what you want, especially if you’re an athlete. 
It was simply a suggestion to save money. There are smaller bits of meat that take less time to cook too


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## vickster (8 Sep 2022)

neil_merseyside said:


> No one cooks a chicken for 2hrs surely, whole chicken just needs to be spatchcocked (cut either side of spine and flattened) maybe 50mins tops?



Take it up with @Phaeton who asked the question


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## fossyant (8 Sep 2022)

Let's wait and see the p/KWh from the suppliers. It's still going up, but we'll have the £400 back (monthly repayment from October of £65 ish), plus some green levy not being charged, overall about the same as current charges.


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## PaulSB (8 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Does anyone have real world values for cooking a chicken in a fan oven as opposed to a gas oven, say for 2 hours?



We usually cook chicken in a slow cooker. Works very well.


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## jowwy (8 Sep 2022)

i cook my chicken in the pizza oven or on a gas griddle ( if breast meat) out on the deck using bottled gas......


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## Phaeton (8 Sep 2022)

PaulSB said:


> We usually cook chicken in a slow cooker. Works very well.



Tell me more, we, using the royal we as I struggle with toast, use the oven, not to bad with roast veg, but on it's own it has to be expensive


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## presta (8 Sep 2022)

Tom... said:


> Lean meat (chicken, low % fat mince, turkey etc.) is currently around 30-40p for 20g of complete protein.
> 
> Which plant proteins are available at this price point?



Price of protein £/kg:


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## Tom... (8 Sep 2022)

presta said:


> Price of protein £/kg:
> View attachment 660397



I'm referring to £ per gram of protein, not £ per gram of mass


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## SpokeyDokey (8 Sep 2022)

Oh come on! 😁 😁 😁

Huge announcements in The Commons today and here we are talking about cooking chickens.

Surely there is something to say without straying into darkside territory?

PS: this is not an "arsey" post, I am genuinely a bit perplexed. 

PPS: I do realise that it is not for me to dictate the discussion so I am happy to bugger off. 😁 😁 😁


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## jowwy (8 Sep 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Oh come on! 😁 😁 😁
> 
> Huge announcements in The Commons today and here we are talking about cooking chickens.
> 
> ...



bills will be lower than the october rate, but still not as low as they should be........


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## PaulSB (8 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Tell me more, we, using the royal we as I struggle with toast, use the oven, not to bad with roast veg, but on it's own it has to be expensive



Very simple. Slice one onion and a few carrots and place them in the bottom of the cooker. Brown the chicken in a frying pan for a few minutes (optional), mix some butter and dried herbs together, rub the mixture over the chicken breasts, season with salt and pepper. Pop in to the slow cooker, we usually put it on the auto setting for 9/10 hours.

We're two in our household. A £4.99 chicken from Aldi will give two "roast" dinners, followed by cold chicken for lunch or a chicken curry the next day. The bones, meat scraps and stock can be further used to make about two litres of chicken stock. This we usually eat as a winter lunch with Orzo pasta cooked in the stock. Basically two meals and +/- 4 soup servings (lunches) for a fiver.


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## Alex321 (8 Sep 2022)

presta said:


> Price of protein £/kg:
> View attachment 660397



Just looking at the first entry, that is not at all accurate.

Flour retails on average at about £0.60/Kg for supermarket own-brands, and 10% of flour is protein.

So to get 1Kg of protein would cost £6.00, not £3.06 as suggested.


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## jowwy (8 Sep 2022)

PaulSB said:


> Very simple. Slice one onion and a few carrots and place them in the bottom of the cooker. Brown the chicken in a frying pan for a few minutes (optional), mix some butter and dried herbs together, rub the mixture over the chicken breasts, season with salt and pepper. Pop in to the slow cooker, we usually put it on the auto setting for 9/10 hours.
> 
> We're two in our household. A £4.99 chicken from Aldi will give two "roast" dinners, followed by cold chicken for lunch or a chicken curry the next day. The bones, meat scraps and stock can be further used to make about two litres of chicken stock. This we usually eat as a winter lunch with Orzo pasta cooked in the stock. Basically two meals and +/- 4 soup servings (lunches) for a fiver.



how much does that slow cooker cost to run for those 9/10hrs


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## SpokeyDokey (8 Sep 2022)

jowwy said:


> bills will be lower than the october rate, but still not as low as they should be........



I think one of the big realisations that was emphasised is that it is a long-term project to manage and smooth price volatility in the energy markets as well as shoring up our ability to be self sufficient as far as possible.

With that in mind this is a long-haul "project" for all of us.

And the long-term domestic wins really sit within our overall individual budgets.

I was talking with Stepson & LT Partner the other day and they were well into the minutiae of electricity saving and they were going around in circles.

Quick wins:

5 iPhone contracts in the house (them and 3 teens).

Full Sky package.

Full complement of Netflix, Disney and Prime.

They spend £90 per week on cigarettes between them.

They have heaps of takeaways.

She is as lazy as they come and cba to get a job. 

And it is whinge, whinge, whinge. 

Neither are receptive to any simple lifestyle changes. 

How do you help people like this?


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## PaulSB (8 Sep 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Oh come on! 😁 😁 😁
> 
> Huge announcements in The Commons today and here we are talking about cooking chickens.
> 
> ...



OK. My view is the £2500 cap will result in confusing headlines which could lead the majority to wrongly believe their bill can be no more than £2500 - don't underestimate either people's inability to understand these matters or to hear what they want to hear rather than what is said. I expected my household to be around the average but I know it isn't in energy consumption and cost as I've done the sums. Millions of people will not or cannot do the maths.

I had hoped to see a much more creative approach to the issue; one which addressed usage, conserved energy, rewarded those who made the greatest effort and penalised those who waste energy. For me the solution would be to significantly reduce the daily standing charge, increase energy unit cost to reflect and compensate for this but to apply unit costs on a sliding scale. Everyone should pay the same amount for a basic level of energy, the average shall we say, beyond this level of usage the unit cost would increase significantly so high users pay more. This approach helps those on lower incomes and provides a real incentive to reduce energy consumption.

It might also be worthwhile applying an additional "green levy" to those consuming above the average on the basis of "let the polluter pay."

Possibly the above is rubbish but it is at least creative thinking, not entirely original on my part, which is more than our government have been with today's announcement.


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## PaulSB (8 Sep 2022)

jowwy said:


> how much does that slow cooker cost to run for those 9/10hrs



According to the instruction booklet the cooker "uses no more electricity than a light bulb." According to my British Gas tariff details I pay 28p per kWh. My BG bill states: 1 kWh will power a 40 watt light bulb for 25 hours. Which means if the cooker is equivalent to a 40W bulb the cost for ten hours use is 28p / 25 = 11.2p

I've also read a 100W bulb consumes 876 kWh if switched on 24/7. Daily consumption then is 876/365 = 2.4kWh. Hourly consumption is 0.1kWh so my slow cooker over ten hours with this example is costing 28p for ten hours.

A touch cheaper than the gas cooker I suspect.


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## Alex321 (8 Sep 2022)

PaulSB said:


> According to the instruction booklet the cooker "uses no more electricity than a light bulb." According to my British Gas tariff details I pay 28p per kWh. My BG bill states: 1 kWh will power a 40 watt light bulb for 25 hours. Which means if the cooker is equivalent to a 40W bulb the cost for ten hours use is 28p / 25 = 11.2p
> 
> I've also read a 100W bulb consumes 876 kWh if switched on 24/7. Daily consumption then is 876/365 = 2.4kWh. Hourly consumption is 0.1kWh so my slow cooker over ten hours with this example is costing 28p for ten hours.
> 
> A touch cheaper than the gas cooker I suspect.



Why not look at the plate on the actual cooker, rather than relying on the rather vague "no more than a lightbulb"? The plate on the device will show the wattage it uses.


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## PaulSB (8 Sep 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Why not look at the plate on the actual cooker, rather than relying on the rather vague "no more than a lightbulb"? The plate on the device will show the wattage it uses.



I did. The plate says 135W. I know this means 135 Watts but nothing else. Is it usage per hour, day, year? Truly means absolutely nothing to me and I guess 99% of the population.


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## PaulSB (8 Sep 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Why not look at the plate on the actual cooker, rather than relying on the rather vague "no more than a lightbulb"? The plate on the device will show the wattage it uses.



Done a bit more Googling and found a site which says the plate rating represents the amount of energy to run an appliance for one hour. So 135W = 0.135kWh @ 28p per kWh for ten hours is 0.135 x 10 x 28 = 37.8p


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## Phaeton (8 Sep 2022)

PaulSB said:


> Done a bit more Googling and found a site which says the plate rating represents the amount of energy to run an appliance for one hour. So 135W = 0.135kWh @ 28p per kWh for ten hours is 0.135 x 10 x 28 = 37.8p



That's my understanding as well, a 60W bulb will be on for 16.6 hours to use 1 unit of electricity that we get charged for.


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## Alex321 (8 Sep 2022)

PaulSB said:


> I did. The plate says 135W. I know this means 135 Watts but nothing else. Is it usage per hour, day, year? Truly means absolutely nothing to me and I guess 99% of the population.



135W is the instantaneous level of use. And is 0.135kW.

Energy from the grid is sold in units of kWh (Kilowatt-hours), so if you have the device running at full power for an hour, it will have used 0.135 units.

And BTW, anybody who did O level physics (or GCSE later) *should* know the watts are the unit of energy, and are derived from volts * amps when talking about electrical energy.


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## jowwy (8 Sep 2022)

PaulSB said:


> Done a bit more Googling and found a site which says the plate rating represents the amount of energy to run an appliance for one hour. So 135W = 0.135kWh @ 28p per kWh for ten hours is 0.135 x 10 x 28 = 37.8p



but what of you could do all that in a 1kw oven in an hour…….on current prices it would save you 7.8p


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## Phaeton (8 Sep 2022)

jowwy said:


> but what of you could do all that in a 1kw oven in an hour…….on current prices it would save you 7.8p



I thought ovens were usually 3kw or KW or kW or Kw whichever it is


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## Low Gear Guy (8 Sep 2022)

The rating plate will indicate the maximum normal power consumption. Once the oven is up to temperature the thermostat will turn the heating element on and off. Thus, running a 2kW oven for 2 hours will use less than 4kWh. The actual energy consumption depends upon the effectiveness of the insulation.


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## Alex321 (8 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I thought ovens were usually 3kw or KW or kW or Kw whichever it is



That is the maximum power, not the amount they will consume continuously at a given temperature setting. They will usually use that maximum power for a few minutes until the cavity is at the set temperature, then will only be using sufficient power to maintain that temperature for the rest of the time.

And it is kW 

Generally, the main units if they are derived from a name are capitalised when abbreviated (but not when written in full - so W or watts), and the multipliers aren't in either case (so k or kilo). Seems an odd convention to me, and I don't always remember, but that is the rule.


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## presta (8 Sep 2022)

Alex321 said:


> And BTW, anybody who did O level physics (or GCSE later) *should* know the watts are the unit of energy, and are derived from volts * amps when talking about electrical energy.


No it isn't, the watt is a unit of *power*.

Power is rate of change of energy, IE energy divided by time, in the same way that speed is rate of change of distance. The SI units of energy and time are the joule, and the second, and the watt is one joule/second. Since power is energy divided by time, if you multiply power by time you have energy: 1kW = 1000W, and 1hour is 3600 seconds, so 1kWh is 1000J/s*3600s = 3.6MJ


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## presta (8 Sep 2022)

Alex321 said:


> That is the maximum power, not the amount they will consume continuously at a given temperature setting. They will usually use that maximum power for a few minutes until the cavity is at the set temperature, then will only be using sufficient power to maintain that temperature for the rest of the time.



If your oven thermostat has a pilot light like mine you can measure the duty cycle from the light. My oven element is 4482W, so for example, if the pilot light were lit for 20s in every minute the mean power would be 4482W*20/60 = 1494W


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## vickster (8 Sep 2022)

Apparently turning the oven off say 10 minutes before done can save energy and just using the residual heat to finish the cooking/resting


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## Phaeton (8 Sep 2022)

vickster said:


> Apparently turning the oven off say 10 minutes before done can save energy and just using the residual heat to finish the cooking/resting


I was only thinking about this last night when I turned the oven of after doing some baked potatoes & thought I should have done that 10 minutes ago.


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## cougie uk (8 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I was only thinking about this last night when I turned the oven of after doing some baked potatoes & thought I should have done that 10 minutes ago.



Or cook them in the microwave and just finish off in the oven ?


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## vickster (8 Sep 2022)

This ^^, I always think baking potatoes in an oven (if not being done with something that takes as ridiculously long) is a very high electricity usage pursuit!
(I can't think of anything I would cook in an oven that takes as long as baking decent sized spuds from scratch)


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## Phaeton (8 Sep 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Or cook them in the microwave and just finish off in the oven ?





vickster said:


> This ^^, I always think baking potatoes in an oven (if not being done with something that takes as ridiculously long) is a very high electricity usage pursuit!
> (I can't think of anything I would cook in an oven that takes as long as baking decent sized spuds from scratch)


But the skin is the best bit, it's not the same after 10 minutes in the microwave, there are some lines that need to be drawn


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## vickster (8 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> But the skin is the best bit, it's not the same after 10 minutes in the microwave, there are some lines that need to be drawn



that's why you finish them off in the oven


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## cyberknight (8 Sep 2022)

neil_merseyside said:


> Why stop the club ride as well as the cake?



I could just sit there whilst everyone else has coffee and cake i suppose ?


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## cyberknight (8 Sep 2022)

vickster said:


> I don't know but this gives some ideas
> https://www.muscleandfitness.com/nu...-vs-plant-14-protein-rich-foods-go-head-head/
> 
> Meat eaters have been saying how expensive good quality chicken had become (I don't know as I've not bought any meat for 3 years), but if people are asking about how much is the cost of electricity/gas to cook a chicken for 2 hours then perhaps looking at cheaper alternatives which need much less time to cook could be considered



the pressure cooker does a joint in about 20-30 mins and its browns the meat too


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## vickster (8 Sep 2022)

cyberknight said:


> the pressure cooker does a joint in about 20-30 mins and its browns the meat too



Suggest it to @Phaeton (I don't eat meat any more )


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## PaulSB (8 Sep 2022)

Alex321 said:


> 135W is the instantaneous level of use. And is 0.135kW.
> 
> Energy from the grid is sold in units of kWh (Kilowatt-hours), so if you have the device running at full power for an hour, it will have used 0.135 units.
> 
> And BTW, anybody who did O level physics (or GCSE later) *should* know the watts are the unit of energy, and are derived from volts * amps when talking about electrical energy.



That may be the case but I failed 'O' level physics 64 years ago . I didn't know what the context of 135W on a rating plate is. I now know which is a positive thing. I'm afraid "instantaneous level of use" means nothing to me and I think this demonstrates the very real problems many people face in understanding how to use energy efficiently.


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## Regular.Cyclist (8 Sep 2022)

I fancied a couple of Scotch Pies for lunch today but didn’t fancy heating the oven to 180 deg C and cooking them for 15 minutes so dug out the user manual for our Bauknecht microwave.

The fitted microwave was here when we moved in 5 years ago and we’d never done more than the basics with it. The ‘auto heat’ function looked quite good so placed the pies in and pressed the button. It fired up, turning on the grill elements and well as the microwave. 4 minutes later I had a couple of nicely cooked pies to enjoy.

Watching the smart meter mon during the process it used a similar amount of power but for a much shorter time so should be more cost efficient.


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## PaulSB (8 Sep 2022)

jowwy said:


> but what of you could do all that in a 1kw oven in an hour…….on current prices it would save you 7.8p



The general advice from well informed pundits is using a slow cooker is far cheaper and more efficient than an oven. We've done this for years not from an economy perspective but convenience and good results. It doesn't suit our lifestyle to hang around waiting for a chicken to cook. Slow cookers also cook "casserole" type dishes far better than an oven.


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## PaulSB (8 Sep 2022)

cyberknight said:


> I could just sit there whilst everyone else has coffee and cake i suppose ?



I still go on club rides and have a coffee with everyone, I just don't eat which does cause people to ask why. You might take my approach which has been this. I'm openly explaining to anyone who asks, many do, I'm a pensioner and my cafe bill is +/- £25/week which I have always thought excessive. I ride three times a week and up here it's difficult to find even beans on toast for less than £4.75 plus a coffee and one quickly hits £7.50. I then go on to let people know on a limited income the current energy and cost of living increases are hard to deal with and by reducing my cafe bill around £15/week it gives me £750 towards my energy bill. Food on a 50-60 mile ride is a luxury, far from an essential.

I've been surprised by the level of interest people have to discuss this and also to learn a few people in full time employment have said they now just quietly order a tea cake instead of bacon barm, beans etc. I think you will find people open and sympathetic to a problem millions of us have to face.


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## neil_merseyside (8 Sep 2022)

cyberknight said:


> I could just sit there whilst everyone else has coffee and cake i suppose ?



Take a flask and have it outside? Our club rides always allow for people having a picnic, two regulars have picnics, one because of allergies the other to save money.
I can have morning coffee to start, lunch (cake whatever) soon mounts up.


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## PaulSB (8 Sep 2022)

neil_merseyside said:


> Take a flask and have it outside? Our club rides always allow for people having a picnic, two regulars have picnics, one because of allergies the other to save money.
> I can have morning coffee to start, lunch (cake whatever) soon mounts up.



This doesn't happen in my club but used to 10 years ago when I was in another club. People on limited incomes brought sandwiches and a flask. No one thought anything of it.


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## cougie uk (8 Sep 2022)

Just have the coffee and say you're getting down to your racing weight to drop them on the hills.


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## pawl (8 Sep 2022)

PaulSB said:


> This doesn't happen in my club but used to 10 years ago when I was in another club. People on limited incomes brought sandwiches and a flask. No one thought anything of it.



You may or may not remember when club runs mid day stop was usually at a CTC appointment Sandwich’s we’re always carried A large tea pot of tea was purchased and perhaps a slice of apple pie.Tea time again a CTC place ,A variety of menus some thing on toast perhaps a salad Followed by tinned fruit and cake. Back then club runs all year we’re an all day affair Happy days


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## DaveReading (8 Sep 2022)

PaulSB said:


> I didn't know what the context of 135W on a rating plate is. I now know which is a positive thing. I'm afraid "instantaneous level of use" means nothing to me


The description could have been worded better. Just think of W(atts) as a measure of how rapidly the plate is depleting your bank balance when it's red.


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## pawl (8 Sep 2022)

PaulSB said:


> I still go on club rides and have a coffee with everyone, I just don't eat which does cause people to ask why. You might take my approach which has been this. I'm openly explaining to anyone who asks, many do, I'm a pensioner and my cafe bill is +/- £25/week which I have always thought excessive. I ride three times a week and up here it's difficult to find even beans on toast for less than £4.75 plus a coffee and one quickly hits £7.50. I then go on to let people know on a limited income the current energy and cost of living increases are hard to deal with and by reducing my cafe bill around £15/week it gives me £750 towards my energy bill. Food on a 50-60 mile ride is a luxury, far from an essential.
> 
> I've been surprised by the level of interest people have to discuss this and also to learn a few people in full time employment have said they now just quietly order a tea cake instead of bacon barm, beans etc. I think you will find people open and sympathetic to a problem millions of us have to face.



I never stop a cafe stop I no longer do long rides maximum 40miles Usually stuff my pockets with Batanberg or similar . Will usually stop at a bench if I’m lucky Have occasionally stopped for a coffee.


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## ColinJ (8 Sep 2022)

PaulSB said:


> That may be the case but I failed 'O' level physics 64 years ago


Or was it 'O' level maths? 

I thought that you are only a few years older than me, and I took my 'O' levels 50 years ago!


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## ColinJ (8 Sep 2022)

classic33 said:


> Let them know how you really feel then.
> They always appreciate honest reviews/reports.



I just did. Let's see what happens now...

The thing I feel slightly concerned about is whether the engineer gets the blame for this. He said that the problem is the unavailability of parts. If true, then that is not his fault. I would like to know though why the information that unavailable parts are needed is not recorded somewhere so I don't keep getting engineers turning up, taking one look, and saying that the required parts are lacking!


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## classic33 (8 Sep 2022)

ColinJ said:


> I just did. Let's see what happens now...
> 
> The thing I feel slightly concerned about is whether the engineer gets the blame for this. He said that the problem is the unavailability of parts. If true, then that is not his fault. I would like to know though why the information that unavailable parts are needed is not recorded somewhere so I don't keep getting engineers turning up, taking one look, and saying that the required parts are lacking!


Chances are the computer system disagrees with what the engineers knew all along. The parts weren't available, but taking the word of a person over what the computer says isn't done lightly or very often.


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## Jameshow (8 Sep 2022)

neil_merseyside said:


> Why stop the club ride as well as the cake?



Why else do you ride?!🍰🍰🍰


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## PaulSB (9 Sep 2022)

pawl said:


> You may or may not remember when club runs mid day stop was usually at a CTC appointment Sandwich’s we’re always carried A large tea pot of tea was purchased and perhaps a slice of apple pie.Tea time again a CTC place ,A variety of menus some thing on toast perhaps a salad Followed by tinned fruit and cake. Back then club runs all year we’re an all day affair Happy days



It's something I'm aware of but none of the clubs I have belonged to ever did this. The club run did used to last all day, usually 9.00 - 5.00, with a coffee, lunch and sometimes tea stop. I understand why this was, no objection to it, but as a young man with a wife and three children it was too much and I left the club.

This would happen at my current club, people don't have the time to be out all day.


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## PaulSB (9 Sep 2022)

classic33 said:


> Chances are the computer system disagrees with what the engineers knew all along. The parts weren't available, but taking the word of a person over what the computer says isn't done lightly or very often.



Yep, this is exactly what happened to me this week. Engineers turned up to fix my dumb smart meters, they don't communicate with the supplier or the display unit.

The meters need to be replaced but as the meters are working, that is measuring usage, engineers aren't permitted to make the swap. There is a shortage of microchips for meters meaning there is a shortage of meters. My job had been booked as an "installation" when it should have been booked as an "exchange."

I can't say I'm especially concerned but would have liked it fixed. Overall though British Gas is such a poorly run business it deserves to crash and burn in the current crisis. Recently my bills since November 1st were reversed putting me £1095.18 in credit. I've emailed BG to inform them of the problem and that after nine months of trying to resolve numerous issues they will not hear from me again.

I'll read the meters monthly, calculate my bill and set the money to one side for the day someone asks for it.

It's a crying shame the smaller companies who understood customer service have been allowed to fail and the major players are now given £150bn in support. Clearly those smaller businesses had the wrong model.

With luck the utility companies will be nationalised and a stop will be put to other countries energy suppliers exploiting the UK market.


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## Phaeton (9 Sep 2022)

Does a charger that is not charging use any electricity, just gone upstairs & actually remembered what I went there for which was good, anyway whilst in the bedroom/office I saw that the Alexa in there was still plugged in, as I'm not working in there currently I unplugged it. But the other plug in the socket was one I use to charge USB lights, so I unplugged it as well which prompted the question, if it's not actually charing is it drawing any current?


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## cyberknight (9 Sep 2022)

neil_merseyside said:


> Take a flask and have it outside? Our club rides always allow for people having a picnic, two regulars have picnics, one because of allergies the other to save money.
> I can have morning coffee to start, lunch (cake whatever) soon mounts up.



Unfortunately the club is a weight weenie kind of a club and flasks outside are ok in the summer,mid winter you need to defrost


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## Low Gear Guy (9 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Does a charger that is not charging use any electricity, just gone upstairs & actually remembered what I went there for which was good, anyway whilst in the bedroom/office I saw that the Alexa in there was still plugged in, as I'm not working in there currently I unplugged it. But the other plug in the socket was one I use to charge USB lights, so I unplugged it as well which prompted the question, if it's not actually charing is it drawing any current?



In general chargers will consume a small but non zero amount of electricity in standby mode. It is good practice to turn them off when not in use. Turning off Alexa would also be a good idea.


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## PK99 (9 Sep 2022)

vickster said:


> This ^^, I always think baking potatoes in an oven (if not being done with something that takes as ridiculously long) is a very high electricity usage pursuit!
> (I can't think of anything I would cook in an oven that takes as long as baking decent sized spuds from scratch)



Baked spuds need to be done in the oven to get the right crispy skin and dry inner texture. Microwaved spuds are microwaved spuds NOT baked potatoes.

A useful trick is to start them in the microwave to get the inner temperature up then finish in the oven = crispy skin plus dry inner texture. nit quite the same as proper baked potatoes, but pretty close.


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## ColinJ (9 Sep 2022)

PK99 said:


> Baked spuds need to be done in the oven to get the right crispy skin and dry inner texture. Microwaved spuds are microwaved spuds NOT baked potatoes.
> 
> A useful trick is to start them in the microwave to get the inner temperature up then finish in the oven = crispy skin plus dry inner texture. nit quite the same as proper baked potatoes, but pretty close.



My fancy microwave oven can get very close to 'true' baking in about 17 minutes for one potato, 19 minutes for two, and low 20s for three or four. It's a high power microwave oven with a fan oven and grill also included. It uses a combination of all 3 modes during the cycle. It gets close enough that I never bother to bake spuds the slow way.


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## FishFright (9 Sep 2022)

Low Gear Guy said:


> In general chargers will consume a small but non zero amount of electricity in standby mode. It is good practice to turn them off when not in use. Turning off Alexa would also be a good idea.



Turning of Alexa is always a good idea , imagine if a government asked people to give them 24hr access to your home .

The mad thing is that people will pay for the privilege if it saves them even a miniscule amount of effort.


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## PK99 (9 Sep 2022)

ColinJ said:


> *My fancy microwave oven *can get very close to 'true' baking in about 17 minutes for one potato, 19 minutes for two, and low 20s for three or four. It's a high power microwave oven with a fan oven and grill also included. It uses a combination of all 3 modes during the cycle. It gets close enough that I never bother to bake spuds the slow way.



??Combination oven??

Yes, but the cost of replacing a serviceable microwave with a combi over would take a long time to recoup.


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## PapaZita (9 Sep 2022)

if finishing off microwaved baked potatoes in a conventional oven, bear in mind that much of the cost of using a well-insulated modern oven is in getting it up to temperature, rather than maintaining it at temperature.


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## vickster (9 Sep 2022)

Which is partly why I only finish in oven if there’s something else in there


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## cougie uk (9 Sep 2022)

Low Gear Guy said:


> In general chargers will consume a small but non zero amount of electricity in standby mode. It is good practice to turn them off when not in use. Turning off Alexa would also be a good idea.



Alexas without screens use about 2w of power or about 50p per month depending on the tariff. 

The joy of having an Alexa is you can ask her questions or command her to turn things off or on etc - kind of spoilt if you have to switch them on first. 

I'd focus on the big things first.


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## Phaeton (9 Sep 2022)

FishFright said:


> Turning of Alexa is always a good idea , imagine if a government asked people to give them 24hr access to your home .
> The mad thing is that people will pay for the privilege if it saves them even a miniscule amount of effort.


You have to set that against the ease of use, it's used for music & controlling some socket, of which some are inaccessible without removing furniture & in one instance floorboards. Yes I can use an App to control them, this way anyone can switch them on & more importantly off.


cougie uk said:


> Alexas without screens use about 2w of power or about 50p per month depending on the tariff.
> 
> The joy of having an Alexa is you can ask her questions or command her to turn things off or on etc - kind of spoilt if you have to switch them on first.
> 
> I'd focus on the big things first.


We have 2, 1 in the corner of the dining room usage as described above, the other in a room which hasn't been used since April/May & if the weather holds not for another month until I have to go back inside to work, at which point I'll use it for music, so it 'should' have been switched off months ago.


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## ColinJ (9 Sep 2022)

PK99 said:


> ??Combination oven??
> 
> Yes, but the cost of replacing a serviceable microwave with a combi over would take a long time to recoup.



It _was_ quite expensive, but I saved money at the time by not replacing a knackered old gas cooker and used the cooker's space for extra storage.

I think that I paid around £500 for it, but I found some just now for around half that.


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## cougie uk (9 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> You have to set that against the ease of use, it's used for music & controlling some socket, of which some are inaccessible without removing furniture & in one instance floorboards. Yes I can use an App to control them, this way anyone can switch them on & more importantly off.
> 
> We have 2, 1 in the corner of the dining room usage as described above, the other in a room which hasn't been used since April/May & if the weather holds not for another month until I have to go back inside to work, at which point I'll use it for music, so it 'should' have been switched off months ago.



Save more money by just walling up the room !


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## Regular.Cyclist (9 Sep 2022)

My fixed rate mortgage period runs out in 117 days.

Just been on phone and secured a 10 year fixed rate extension for only a few quid more than we are paying now.

Reassuring to have that, and a sensible fixed fuel tariff, in the current climate.


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## MrGrumpy (10 Sep 2022)

Amazing what a couple of days do to your DD. That’s the difference on Wed announcement. How people could have afforded that sort of price hike!


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## neil_merseyside (10 Sep 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> View attachment 660539
> 
> Amazing what a couple of days do to your DD. That’s the difference on Wed announcement. How people could have afforded that sort of price hike!



So you have a surplus now, and you will have a surplus then, yet you can only increase the amount so the surplus rises more?


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## Phaeton (10 Sep 2022)

neil_merseyside said:


> So you have a surplus now, and you will have a surplus then, yet you can only increase the amount so the surplus rises more?


We are talking about energy companies here, they like to use our money as a free overdraft they can get interest on.


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## MrGrumpy (10 Sep 2022)

neil_merseyside said:


> So you have a surplus now, and you will have a surplus then, yet you can only increase the amount so the surplus rises more?



Actually they now suggest I drop it


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## Phaeton (10 Sep 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Actually they now suggest I drop it


But won't let you sufficiently


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## MrGrumpy (10 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> But won't let you sufficiently



The whole point is reaching £0 owed I believe ! Early days but if I’m ( a miracle ) in credit after winter I’m sure I can drop it . Not too worried about it now obviously , what I’m paying is what I use . So to save I’ll try and cut, recent events have made make take notice !!


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## Phaeton (10 Sep 2022)

I'd rather I owed them money than they owe me


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## mjr (10 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I'd rather I owed them money than they owe me


Yes, do your own calculations. Some energy companies do tricks like taking that "in 12 months" estimated amount on a date immediately before you'd pay them.


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## Phaeton (10 Sep 2022)

mjr said:


> Yes, do your own calculations. Some energy companies do tricks like taking that "in 12 months" estimated amount on a date immediately before you'd pay them.


I left British Gas on the 16th August & provided them with a meter readings, I gave the same ones to Octopus, so far BG have sent me 3 Final Bill's all with differing amounts on.


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## Regular.Cyclist (10 Sep 2022)

When I got the keys to where I live now, approximately 5 years ago, the first thing I did was was to swap out all 41 standard GU10 bulbs, which provided the main light in all rooms, for LED ones. The living room alone had 9 in the ceiling, each consuming 50 watts. The LED lamps which replaced them were only 4 watts each. In the evening we sit with a single uplighter fitted with a 5 watt LED lamp.

Last night one of the G4 lamps in the cooker hood (my wife likes to use these when cooking) blew. It was one of the original 12v, 20 watt bulbs. Checking in the local supermarket showed that 2 x exact replacements would cost the same as 4 x 1.5 watt replacement from Amazon. These were duly ordered and will arrive today.


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## Phaeton (15 Sep 2022)

Anybody any thoughts on what these spikes are overnight? 

Fridge/Freezer?


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## fossyant (15 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Anybody any thoughts on what these spikes are overnight?
> 
> Fridge/Freezer?
> 
> View attachment 661079



Most likely the pump or what ever kicking in. Our new one uses many different power levels depending upon what it is doing, circulation fan, cooling, off, etc.


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## SpokeyDokey (15 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Anybody any thoughts on what these spikes are overnight?
> 
> Fridge/Freezer?
> 
> View attachment 661079



Cats, foxes, badgers or pervy voyeurs triggering your exterior security lights? 😁


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## Phaeton (15 Sep 2022)

fossyant said:


> Most likely the pump or what ever kicking in. Our new one uses many different power levels depending upon what it is doing, circulation fan, cooling, off, etc.


I can't think of anything else it could be, what's weird is I don't see the same pattern during the day, 


SpokeyDokey said:


> Cats, foxes, badgers or pervy voyeurs triggering your exterior security lights? 😁


Wish I could afford to live somewhere there was a risk of Foxes or Badgers, but No, we don't have security lights as such, I have a 5W light that is on a dusk till dawn photo cell controlled, so that should be constant throughout the night.


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## fossyant (15 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I can't think of anything else it could be, what's weird is I don't see the same pattern during the day,
> 
> Wish I could afford to live somewhere there was a risk of Foxes or Badgers, but No, we don't have security lights as such, I have a 5W light that is on a dusk till dawn photo cell controlled, so that should be constant throughout the night.



Gone are the days where we had 500w halogen security lights. Even my 100w ones were replaced for 10w LED.


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## jowwy (15 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I can't think of anything else it could be, what's weird is I don't see the same pattern during the day,
> 
> Wish I could afford to live somewhere there was a risk of Foxes or Badgers, but No, we don't have security lights as such, I have a 5W light that is on a dusk till dawn photo cell controlled, so that should be constant throughout the night.



Looks to be around 250w on average, cant be the fridge freezer surely???


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## SpokeyDokey (15 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I can't think of anything else it could be, what's weird is I don't see the same pattern during the day,
> 
> Wish I could afford to live somewhere there was a risk of Foxes or Badgers, but No, we don't have security lights as such, I have a 5W light that is on a dusk till dawn photo cell controlled, so that should be constant throughout the night.



I'm running out of options now.

Have you got a R.Whites Secret Lemonade Drinker in the house? 😁


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## Alex321 (15 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I can't think of anything else it could be, what's weird is I don't see the same pattern during the day,


It's only 250W that is being used by whatever is causing the spike. During the day, with overall usage higher, that will be less noticeable. Also, if it is the pump in the Fridge, it will be less predictable during the day, as the fridge door gets opened, and temperatures vary more.


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## mjr (15 Sep 2022)

Stick a smart monitor plug on the suspect and see if it matches?


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## Fab Foodie (15 Sep 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Oh come on! 😁 😁 😁
> 
> Huge announcements in The Commons today and here we are talking about cooking chickens.



For some of us, that's how we pay our bills!


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## mjr (15 Sep 2022)

Fab Foodie said:


> For some of us, that's how we pay our bills!


Don't chickens have beaks rather than bills?


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## Phaeton (15 Sep 2022)

I think it still happens during the day, but it's masked but the Solar, you can see where the wife was doing her hairdressing yesterday with the hairdryer. I think the dips are where whatever is kicking in still is.


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## Milkfloat (15 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Anybody any thoughts on what these spikes are overnight?
> 
> Fridge/Freezer?
> 
> View attachment 661079



Seems to be a lot to be a fridge, do you have your hot water on at night and this could be the pump? It seems very frequent to be a fridge.

This is my load - as you can see practically nothing overnight and I have a large American fridge freezer with an ice marker.


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## Phaeton (15 Sep 2022)

Milkfloat said:


> Seems to be a lot to be a fridge, do you have your hot water on at night and this could be the pump? It seems very frequent to be a fridge.
> 
> This is my load - as you can see practically nothing overnight and I have a large American fridge freezer with an ice marker.



Other than an outside light, a router, a couple of hubs/switches, a few DECT telephones, I can't think of anything else other than a small upright freezer & the American fridge/freezer that would be switched on at that time of night.

Edit:- there's a Freeview recorder box & a CCTV recorder, but they should be a constant pull not a spike.


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## Milkfloat (15 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Other than an outside light, a router, a couple of hubs/switches, a few DECT telephones, I can't think of anything else other than a small upright freezer & the American fridge/freezer that would be switched on at that time of night.
> 
> Edit:- there's a Freeview recorder box & a CCTV recorder, but they should be a constant pull not a spike.



It might be worth turning off a few things tonight and seeing what difference is made.


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## Phaeton (15 Sep 2022)

Milkfloat said:


> It might be worth turning off a few things tonight and seeing what difference is made.





mjr said:


> Stick a smart monitor plug on the suspect and see if it matches?


I have a spare WiFi socket which I was just using to turn some LED's on/off, I've plugged to small upright freezer into it, so if I look in 24 hours time it will give me an idea of how much it uses in a day. But other than this & the other fridge/freezer there shouldn't be anything else plugged in, even been out to the garage to make sure there's nothing in there, unplugged the compressor, but we would have heard that.


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## mjr (15 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Edit:- there's a Freeview recorder box & a CCTV recorder, but they should be a constant pull not a spike.


If they're still using mechanical hard disks, there will be spikes, but shouldn't be that big.


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## Fab Foodie (15 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I have a spare WiFi socket which I was just using to turn some LED's on/off, I've plugged to small upright freezer into it, so if I look in 24 hours time it will give me an idea of how much it uses in a day. But other than this & the other fridge/freezer there shouldn't be anything else plugged in, even been out to the garage to make sure there's nothing in there, unplugged the compressor, but we would have heard that.



Most likely the fridge freezer with that regularity.


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## Fab Foodie (15 Sep 2022)

Been following this thread with interest.

On the cooking thing, the general view on t'internet is a gas oven is cheaper to run than a lecky one and a gas hob cheaper than a lecky one too, though I'd love to see specifically how the numbers are calculated. Our new house has 2 electric ovens :-(
Also interested how one poster manages to get crispy chicken skin from a regular pressure cooker!

Of course changing what we eat and which appliances are used to cook with can make a notable difference to costs. We have a Ninja Foodie multi cooker pot thing (Pressure/Slow/Sautee, Bake/Roast Air-Fry etc), and we do almost everything we would use the oven and (Induction) hob for. It's small so has low thermal mass, and better insulation than a regular oven. We also have a Remoska and that again can do a lot of different cooked products with very low energy consumption.

I would also like to know whether boiling a volume of water in a kettle for sink washing-up is (in general) cheaper than running the boiler and warming the pipes to get the same volume of water at the same temp at the sink. Running the boiler also consumes more water to wash the dishes.

Like others I have started to turn-off laptop and all my office stuff at night when I used to leave it dozing. We do as much washing/diswasher etc. while we have sun on the solar - every little helps. We are in a way better situation than very many people, but that doesn't mean we are not economising where possible, the price of all the essentials is rising and at our age and life of toil we thought life was going to get better not harder.

I had been planning to work 4 days a week from start of 2023 as a prelude to slowing down toward retirement, spending more time in the camper and indulging in hobbies (learning woodworking) etc. but the current situation has put that on hold, gonna stay a full time wage slave a little longer to see where the costs settle and put a bit more in the pension-pot. We'll still be using the camper to get away at weekends, but staying much more local than before. 
Furthermore, with 3 kids and 2 grandchildren, some reserves might be useful if they struggle too.

'Planning' for retirement seems to have gone tits-up in an evermore uncertain world, but then again, there are going to be a lot more people in very horrible situations this winter.
Good ideas abound, it's changing our lifestyles to adapt that's hard....


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## fossyant (15 Sep 2022)

It is changing what you do. We've managed, for the last two weeks, to be consuming 12 KWh a day on average in leccy, that's down from the 20 we have been doing, and vastly reduced from spring. Air fryer and slow cooker in regular use. We have used the oven, baked some apple pies as our 'tree' is now just an apple tree - used to be an apple pie tree when my neighbour was alive (she'd pick most of our apples and then bake us pies).

Being in the office more has reduced costs, although there is at least one of us in 3 days a week.


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## mjr (15 Sep 2022)

Fab Foodie said:


> I would also like to know whether boiling a volume of water in a kettle for sink washing-up is (in general) cheaper than running the boiler and warming the pipes to get the same volume of water at the same temp at the sink. Running the boiler also consumes more water to wash the dishes.


It depends. If you have a hot water storage tank, it's probably cheaper to use the kettle to add to not-hot-enough tank water for washing-up instead of boost the tank back up, unless you will use more hot water after. Heating a kettle will be maybe 2p/litre at the mo, while it's 20-40p to bring the 170litre tank back up (depending how low it went).

Combi boiler I think will normally be cheaper than a kettle if it is near the sink and pipes are insulated (and are copper that warms very quickly).


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## PaulSB (15 Sep 2022)

Fab Foodie said:


> I would also like to know whether boiling a volume of water in a kettle for sink washing-up is (in general) cheaper than running the boiler and warming the pipes to get the same volume of water at the same temp at the sink. Running the boiler also consumes more water to wash the dishes.


I conducted a very unscientific experiment a few weeks ago after I read it is cheaper to boil a kettle when one needs a saucepan of water than to heat it on the gas hob. I also addressed a very wasteful habit of mine that when preparing food and cooking I like to have a washing up bowl of hand hot soapy water to rinse my hands, knives, etc. while cooking. So.......... the kettle holds 1.7 litres which by coincidence is enough to fill one of our saucepans to cook spaghetti or similar. The washing up bowl holds 14 litres. Water used is cold from the tap.

Kettle to boil 1.7 L = 4 minutes 10 seconds
Gas hob to boil pan = 8 minutes 25 seconds

I now boil a kettle when I want a pan of boiling water

The washing up bowl! Typically I would fill and empty this twice from our combi-boiler which is about 4 feet from the sink. I was using 28 litres of water plus about 12 litres run down the sink! 40 litres in total

If I put a kettle full of boiling water in the washing up bowl I have to add 3 litres of cold to get the temperature down to hand hot. So I have 4.7 litres of hot soapy water. If I run hot water from the combi boiler it takes 55 seconds to give me the same quantity of hot water. So the combi seems the clear winner in time taken to heat the water BUT before the water from the combi gets to hand hot I have to run 6 litres of warm water down the sink!!!!!!! Saving energy while wasting water. 

What I now do is fill the washing up boil to +/-25% twice during cooking. The result for hands, knives etc. is the same but I've used +/- 8 litres hot water which is energy efficient and although I waste +/- 12 litres of water it's less than I previously did. This means I've used far less energy and overall cut the water used by 50%.

Hope you can follow that.


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## cougie uk (15 Sep 2022)

PaulSB said:


> I conducted a very unscientific experiment a few weeks ago after I read it is cheaper to boil a kettle when one needs a saucepan of water than to heat it on the gas hob. I also addressed a very wasteful habit of mine that when preparing food and cooking I like to have a washing up bowl of hand hot soapy water to rinse my hands, knives, etc. while cooking. So.......... the kettle holds 1.7 litres which by coincidence is enough to fill one of our saucepans to cook spaghetti or similar. The washing up bowl holds 14 litres. Water used is cold from the tap.
> 
> Kettle to boil 1.7 L = 4 minutes 10 seconds
> Gas hob to boil pan = 8 minutes 25 seconds
> ...



Interesting but I believe a dishwasher is more efficient than hand washing? Assuming it's well stacked and full.


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## mjr (15 Sep 2022)

PaulSB said:


> I have to run 6 litres of warm water down the sink!!!!!!! Saving energy while wasting water.


Why? Save it and use it to water plants or whatever!

And on the times to boil: how much energy per minute are kettle and hob using? That seems vital.


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## PaulSB (15 Sep 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Interesting but I believe a dishwasher is more efficient than hand washing? Assuming it's well stacked and full.



Oh yes, agreed, we use a dishwasher but only when it's full. The sort of washing up I'm talking about is perhaps to wash hands after chopping onions, slicing fish, tossing a salad, rinsing a pan, wiping down surfaces or to wash my kitchen knives which I don't like to put in the dishwasher.

My wife says I'm anal but I've always stacked the dishwasher properly and only wash when it's full and in eco mode.


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## mjr (15 Sep 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Interesting but I believe a dishwasher is more efficient than hand washing? Assuming it's well stacked and full.


In operation, marginally, but it takes a loooong time to recover the energy cost of manufacturing and transporting the unitasker.


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## cougie uk (15 Sep 2022)

Listening to More or Less on R4 this week they were talking about energy price increases. 
The average gas price is doubled but electric just increased by 37%.

I think I'll be taping off the gas hob ! Microwave everything family !


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## fossyant (15 Sep 2022)

PaulSB said:


> I conducted a very unscientific experiment a few weeks ago after I read it is cheaper to boil a kettle when one needs a saucepan of water than to heat it on the gas hob. I also addressed a very wasteful habit of mine that when preparing food and cooking I like to have a washing up bowl of hand hot soapy water to rinse my hands, knives, etc. while cooking. So.......... the kettle holds 1.7 litres which by coincidence is enough to fill one of our saucepans to cook spaghetti or similar. The washing up bowl holds 14 litres. Water used is cold from the tap.
> 
> Kettle to boil 1.7 L = 4 minutes 10 seconds
> Gas hob to boil pan = 8 minutes 25 seconds
> ...



The thing is, and I keep saying this to my colleagues, we should not need to do this in a so called 'rich' country. The good side is, we're all cutting back on waste power.


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## fossyant (15 Sep 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Listening to More or Less on R4 this week they were talking about energy price increases.
> The average gas price is doubled but electric just increased by 37%.
> 
> I think I'll be taping off the gas hob ! Microwave everything family !



Gas hobs are really efficient - we use ours all the time and my gas at the moment is £15 month max including hot water heating. Average over a year was $45 a month, now near £100.

Electric has moved from 19p to 27p to probably 32p from October - that's a fair amount in a modern property. Depends on your house - gas use is much lower than average in our house as it's pretty good thermally, the issue is all the electric gubbins for 4 adults, and stuff that's a luxury, and being flipping lazy for sake of speed etc.

I can afford it, but bloody hell we've been lighting £50 notes... we've stopped it. It's people like my neice that can't take that hit - two young kids, lots of washing, pre-pay meters, in-efficient council property... really hard,


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## PaulSB (15 Sep 2022)

mjr said:


> Why? Save it and use it to water plants or whatever!
> 
> And on the times to boil: how much energy per minute are kettle and hob using? That seems vital.



Get the point but I don't have anyway of storing 12 litres of water a day! As for times to boil and energy used I agree but I have no way of calculating this. From what I've read opinion seems to strongly lean towards the kettle being more efficient. The kettle plate is rated as 2500-3000W which I believe is the consumption if used for one hour. So at a minimum of 2500 (2.5kWh) for one hour the kettle is costing 33.5p/kWh x 2.5 = 83.75p so the four minutes to boil the kettle is 83.75/15 = 5.58p. Lets say 6p. I'm only doing this once a day at most!

Gas takes twice as long to boil the water but only costs 10.3p/kWh................................I give up!


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## fossyant (15 Sep 2022)

PaulSB said:


> Get the point but I don't have anyway of storing 12 litres of water a day! As for times to boil and energy used I agree but I have no way of calculating this. From what I've read opinion seems to strongly lean towards the kettle being more efficient. The kettle plate is rated as 2500-3000W which I believe is the consumption if used for one hour. So at a minimum of 2500 (2.5kWh) for one hour the kettle is costing 33.5p/kWh x 2.5 = 83.75p so the four minutes to boil the kettle is 83.75/15 = 5.58p. Lets say 6p. I'm only doing this once a day at most!
> 
> Gas takes twice as long to boil the water but only costs 10.3p/kWh................................I give up!



Calculations are about right. Used to boil water in the kettle as it was faster/efficient than waiting over 10 mins for hob. No kettle at the minute as I electrocuted myself on it last week - will get another soon....  Proper right shock from the plastic 'off switch'.


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## PaulSB (15 Sep 2022)

fossyant said:


> The thing is, and I keep saying this to my colleagues, we should not need to do this in a so called 'rich' country. The good side is, we're all cutting back on waste power.



I would agree with you on both points and truly hope we remain as energy conscious if prices ever come down. I'm 68, the household is funded from pensions and other than returning to work there is no opportunity to increase income. I'm not returning to work. I can fund these increases but that doesn't mean I can afford them. 

As for your point to your colleagues of course you are right. I will not turn this thread to areas which should be in NACA but I think it should now be abundantly clear to the majority this country has been mismanaged and badly governed for decades by both parties. If the country had been well governed this crisis would look somewhat different.

I'm sat here wearing a shirt, sweater, fleece and slippers. I'm perfectly warm and comfortable, sadly millions cannot say the same. We've decided to review when the CH goes on after November 8th when we return from a holiday. Till then it's staying off.


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## fossyant (15 Sep 2022)

PaulSB said:


> I would agree with you on both points and truly hope we remain as energy conscious if prices ever come down. I'm 68, the household is funded from pensions and other than returning to work there is no opportunity to increase income. I'm not returning to work. I can fund these increases but that doesn't mean I can afford them.
> 
> As for your point to your colleagues of course you are right. I will not turn this thread to areas which should be in NACA but I think it should now be abundantly clear to the majority this country has been mismanaged and badly governed for decades by both parties. If the country had been well governed this crisis would look somewhat different.
> 
> I'm sat here wearing a shirt, sweater, fleece and slippers. I'm perfectly warm and comfortable, sadly millions cannot say the same. We've decided to review when the CH goes on after November 8th when we return from a holiday. Till then it's staying off.



I'm sat here in a thin cotton shirt and pants. I sleep on-top of the duvet - MrsF just put the winter duvet on. The house is still too warm. No heating on...


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## rogerzilla (16 Sep 2022)

It is way cheaper to boil water on a gas hob than to use an electric kettle. The kettle is more efficient (less wasted heat) but gas is a quarter the cost of electricity, which far more than cancels that out.


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## MrGrumpy (16 Sep 2022)

We had a boiling tap put in when the kitchen was done. Expensive but only uses 10w when not in use. Hoping it will save money


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## Fab Foodie (16 Sep 2022)

PaulSB said:


> Oh yes, agreed, we use a dishwasher but only when it's full. The sort of washing up I'm talking about is perhaps to wash hands after chopping onions, slicing fish, tossing a salad, rinsing a pan, wiping down surfaces or to wash my kitchen knives which I don't like to put in the dishwasher.
> 
> My wife says I'm anal but I've always stacked the dishwasher properly and only wash when it's full and in eco mode.



You sound completely 'normal' to me! First job when cooking is to get some hot soapy water in the bowl.
Our dishwasher has 'autosense' but I might review the eco prog again, IIRC, it uses very slightly less water and very slightly more lecky (OK with Solar) than most of the other progs.


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## Fab Foodie (16 Sep 2022)

mjr said:


> It depends. If you have a hot water storage tank, it's probably cheaper to use the kettle to add to not-hot-enough tank water for washing-up instead of boost the tank back up, unless you will use more hot water after. Heating a kettle will be maybe 2p/litre at the mo, while it's 20-40p to bring the 170litre tank back up (depending how low it went).
> 
> Combi boiler I think will normally be cheaper than a kettle if it is near the sink and pipes are insulated (and are copper that warms very quickly).



No water tank, and the boiler is quite a distance from the kitchen (from the West wing at Foodie Towers ) I have I have no idea of the pipe insulation.

@PaulSB made the point about the 'wasted' cold water before the hot comes, we have a fair bit of that due to the pipe run but other than fill a few watering cans, no way to capture this sensibly.

I usually boil water in a kettle for boiling rice/Pasta and without gas will continue this habit, probs will start doing that for the hot soapy water in the bowl when cooking.


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## Fab Foodie (16 Sep 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> We had a boiling tap put in when the kitchen was done. Expensive but only uses 10w when not in use. Hoping it will save money



Contemplated having one of these as an option in the new house (I even started a thread about them), with the way energy costs (and no doubt soon our water costs too) are rising, it might have been a reasonable investment....


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## mjr (16 Sep 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> We had a boiling tap put in when the kitchen was done. Expensive but only uses 10w when not in use. Hoping it will save money


You say "only uses 10w" but the LED floodlight outside is only 4.5w, so what's it doing while off? Floodlighting the undersink cupboard?


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## Alex321 (16 Sep 2022)

Fab Foodie said:


> No water tank, and the boiler is quite a distance from the kitchen (from the West wing at Foodie Towers ) I have I have no idea of the pipe insulation.
> 
> @PaulSB made the point about the 'wasted' cold water before the hot comes, we have a fair bit of that due to the pipe run but other than fill a few watering cans, no way to capture this sensibly.
> 
> I usually boil water in a kettle for boiling rice/Pasta and without gas will continue this habit, probs will start doing that for the hot soapy water in the bowl when cooking.



I think the waste is made worse there by the hot water that is left in the pipes to cool after you finish filling the bowl, which then becomes that wasted cold when you next come to do so. So you have heated that to no purpose, before letting it cool, then throwing it away next time.

We used to have a similar issue in our last house - a combi boiler one end of the house, with the kitchen the other end - and it was a BIG house. It took at least 30 seconds for the hot water to arrive at the tap  And even worse, that combi boiler ran off LPG gas, way more expensive than mains gas.


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## Phaeton (16 Sep 2022)

Just a warning for anyone contemplating filling the kettle from the hot water tap don't the water that is held in the header tank can be quite nasty, not so bad with a Combi boiler as that is reasonably fresh water.


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## PaulSB (16 Sep 2022)

rogerzilla said:


> It is way cheaper to boil water on a gas hob than to use an electric kettle. The kettle is more efficient (less wasted heat) but gas is a quarter the cost of electricity, which far more than cancels that out.



Do you have some more on this because it is partly how I have been thinking but I'm unsure? My kettle takes 4 minutes 10 to boil 1.7 litres, the gas hob takes 8 minutes 25 - double the time. Currently we pay 33.0p/kWh for electricity and 10.3 for gas so one-third less.

For arguments sake lets just say the kettle costs £1 to boil, if the unit costs were the same the gas would be £2. However gas is one-third the price of electricity so using this example I think the gas cost would be £1.00/3 = 33p * 2 =66p so yes definitely cheaper. The real costs are much smaller and I'm not convinced the gas is cheaper over such a short period, if you get my drift.


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## MrGrumpy (16 Sep 2022)

What LED floodlight outside? It’s very very dim under the sink and the LED light on the tap only comes in when in use. Cost I’ll maybe never get back but it’s is more efficient than turning the kettle on.


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## roubaixtuesday (16 Sep 2022)

PaulSB said:


> Do you have some more on this because it is partly how I have been thinking but I'm unsure? My kettle takes 4 minutes 10 to boil 1.7 litres, the gas hob takes 8 minutes 25 - double the time. Currently we pay 33.0p/kWh for electricity and 10.3 for gas so one-third less.
> 
> For arguments sake lets just say the kettle costs £1 to boil, if the unit costs were the same the gas would be £2. However gas is one-third the price of electricity so using this example I think the gas cost would be £1.00/3 = 33p * 2 =66p so yes definitely cheaper. The real costs are much smaller and I'm not convinced the gas is cheaper over such a short period, if you get my drift.




Your calculation assumes the kettle and gas burner have identical power output. They certainly will not have, and could be wildly different.


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## MrGrumpy (16 Sep 2022)

Fab Foodie said:


> Contemplated having one of these as an option in the new house (I even started a thread about them), with the way energy costs (and no doubt soon our water costs too) are rising, it might have been a reasonable investment....



Not cheap !! However if doing a kitchen renovation it’s probably the time to do it !


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## Fab Foodie (16 Sep 2022)

Alex321 said:


> I think the waste is made worse there by the hot water that is left in the pipes to cool after you finish filling the bowl, which then becomes that wasted cold when you next come to do so. So you have heated that to no purpose, before letting it cool, then throwing it away next time.
> 
> We used to have a similar issue in our last house - a combi boiler one end of the house, with the kitchen the other end - and it was a BIG house. It took at least 30 seconds for the hot water to arrive at the tap  And even worse, that combi boiler ran off LPG gas, way more expensive than mains gas.



That's a very good point.


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## Fab Foodie (16 Sep 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Not cheap !! However if doing a kitchen renovation it’s probably the time to do it !



Too late now!


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## Jody (16 Sep 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> We had a boiling tap put in when the kitchen was done. Expensive but only uses 10w when not in use. Hoping it will save money



Is that 10w hourly? Out of interest, what does it use when boiling the water?


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## MrGrumpy (16 Sep 2022)

Yes 10w hourly , ramps up to about 1.5kw when operated but that’s not for long. 

I’ve had a gas hob and I’ve had induction jobs . Water will boil super quick on induction , gas hob is like watching paint dry. The Quooker tap is practically instant. We also fill pots of boiling water if cooking veg/ pasta etc . Even just to boil eggs it’s much quicker however I’ve not done the maths to the penny. It’s convenient first and foremost


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## Jody (16 Sep 2022)

So you probably get a net saving on the boiling water, even taking standby into account as a kettle is usually around 3kwh.

Standby uses the equivalent of 5 minutes kettle boiling a day.

I like the idea of them, especially given the convenience but have never looked into the efficiency.


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## mjr (16 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Just a warning for anyone contemplating filling the kettle from the hot water tap don't the water that is held in the header tank can be quite nasty, not so bad with a Combi boiler as that is reasonably fresh water.


If you still have a header tank (rather than a sealed pressure vessel or nothing), isn't the system likely to be so old-fashioned that efficiency is a wild unattainable dream anyway?


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## Phaeton (16 Sep 2022)

mjr said:


> If you still have a header tank (rather than a sealed pressure vessel or nothing), isn't the system likely to be so old-fashioned that efficiency is a wild unattainable dream anyway?



No idea, I know my S-I-L & daughter have just had their boiler replaced & it had one, I don't think it was that old when they bought the house as it was one of the buying/selling points & I think that was only 10 years ago


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## Alex321 (16 Sep 2022)

mjr said:


> If you still have a header tank (rather than a sealed pressure vessel or nothing), isn't the system likely to be so old-fashioned that efficiency is a wild unattainable dream anyway?



If you have a non-combi boiler and a hot water tank, the odds are you will also have a header tank to fill it.

Our house is only 24 years old, and that is what we have.


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## MrGrumpy (16 Sep 2022)

Alex321 said:


> If you have a non-combi boiler and a hot water tank, the odds are you will also have a header tank to fill it.
> 
> Our house is only 24 years old, and that is what we have.



Most of the new house round here have an unvented hot water system. Had a combi before which was fine at the time but they do toil water demand is high .


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## mjr (16 Sep 2022)

Alex321 said:


> If you have a non-combi boiler and a hot water tank, the odds are you will also have a header tank to fill it.


I don't, so you'd lose that bet.



> Our house is only 24 years old, and that is what we have.


Is the heating system unchanged? One from 24 years ago is probably "old-fashioned" IMO: it'd be designed about 1998, when petrol was about 60p/litre and most people cared less about energy efficiency, 9 years before houses here had to have Energy Performance Certificates. If it was a bike, it would count as "vintage" in just 6 more years.


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## potsy (16 Sep 2022)

Not really taken much notice of energy usage until recently, seems we are using around 9 kwh per day. 
That's for 3 adults, with an electric/induction hob and the usual computers/TVs/gadgets.


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## MrGrumpy (16 Sep 2022)

potsy said:


> Not really taken much notice of energy usage until recently, seems we are using around 9 kwh per day.
> That's for 3 adults, with an electric/induction hob and the usual computers/TVs/gadgets.



Swap you lol


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## cyberknight (17 Sep 2022)

predicted bill just dropped £246 a month ,So i think next years holiday is liable to be cancelled along with a lot of other things like the odd takeaway etc so looks like its work and shiver from now on , i doubt i will even be doing club rides as a cake stop will be out


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## fossyant (17 Sep 2022)

Alex321 said:


> If you have a non-combi boiler and a hot water tank, the odds are you will also have a header tank to fill it.
> 
> Our house is only 24 years old, and that is what we have.



Same here, headder tanks for both CH and water. They are both cold. Advantage with a CH headder is it's easy to add boiler silencer fluid and anti-corrosion stuff. Our CH is very efficient - boiler 25 years old, gas use is minimal.


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## ColinJ (17 Sep 2022)

ColinJ said:


> Today, BG have failed to provide me with a working smart meter. That is the 3rd time in 3 years!
> 
> The engineer said that they just can't get the parts. That's what he said a year or so ago. (I think it was the same engineer.)
> 
> Anyway, he said that it isn't really a problem because I can just go down into my cellar and read the meters manually if I want to know the readings... And then enter them manually on the BG website... And not be eligible for monthly billing...


I complained and BG have just written back apologising that the engineer failed to turn up - they can't even get their apology right! On the bright side, they are giving me £30 compensation... 

Perhaps I should keep on making appointments to have new smart meters fitted. After the engineer comes, scratches his head, and goes away without sorting the meters out I can complain again and BG can send me some more money for him not coming here even though he did! It would certainly help pay some of those increased fuel charges!


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## Buck (17 Sep 2022)

When we replaced our boiler all the quotes we got said stay away from a combi as it wouldn’t be effective for us due to the layout of the house and 4 of us / chance of multi showers on a morning etc. 

We went for a non-vented pressurised system which works really well. 

Next door have the same house design and have a combi which they are replacing for similar reasons. 

New solar will have an “Eddi” diverter which will heat the water during the day rather than back to the grid once the battery is full.


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## MrGrumpy (17 Sep 2022)

fossyant said:


> Same here, headder tanks for both CH and water. They are both cold. Advantage with a CH headder is it's easy to add boiler silencer fluid and anti-corrosion stuff. Our CH is very efficient - boiler 25 years old, gas use is minimal.



I put my anti corrosion stuff in the magnaflow inline filter . Quite easy to do


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## Buck (17 Sep 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> I put my anti corrosion stuff in the magnaflow inline filter . Quite easy to do



Same here. Always amazed how much gunk that thing pulls out of the system.


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## MrGrumpy (17 Sep 2022)

Buck said:


> When we replaced our boiler all the quotes we got said stay away from a combi as it wouldn’t be effective for us due to the layout of the house and 4 of us / chance of multi showers on a morning etc.
> 
> We went for a non-vented pressurised system which works really well.
> 
> ...



I’m considering that for when I also get solar.


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## Alex321 (17 Sep 2022)

Buck said:


> When we replaced our boiler all the quotes we got said stay away from a combi as it wouldn’t be effective for us due to the layout of the house and 4 of us / chance of multi showers on a morning etc.
> 
> We went for a non-vented pressurised system which works really well.
> 
> ...



Yes, we are getting an Eddi for the immersion heater as well. Being installed at the same time as the battery, next week.


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## cyberknight (18 Sep 2022)

cyberknight said:


> predicted bill just dropped £246 a month ,So i think next years holiday is liable to be cancelled along with a lot of other things like the odd takeaway etc so looks like its work and shiver from now on , i doubt i will even be doing club rides as a cake stop will be out



uhm 
teach me to read emails without glasses
still not good but looking at £200 a month not £246 so things are a bit rubbish but another £40 a month is doable mini ck2 will be on sarnies for school dinners and still goign to cut back as much as we can but if we are careful then it should be ok


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## Buck (18 Sep 2022)

Our kids have always been on sandwiches for school dinners. So much better quality and price wise a no brainier!


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## Mike_P (18 Sep 2022)

Just had a text telling me to apply for the £400 linking to an offical looking web site until you realise the menu and search links do not work. Gov.uk and my energy supplier say no need to apply


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## rogerzilla (18 Sep 2022)

Mike_P said:


> Just had a text telling me to apply for the £400 linking to an offical looking web site until you realise the menu and search links do not work. Gov.uk and my energy supplier say no need to apply


Whenever there's a news story, the scammers are on it like a car bonnet.


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## PaulSB (18 Sep 2022)

cyberknight said:


> predicted bill just dropped £246 a month ,So i think next years holiday is liable to be cancelled along with a lot of other things like the odd takeaway etc so looks like its work and shiver from now on ,* i doubt i will even be doing club rides as a cake stop will be out*



You've said this before. Take your own cake, make up a small flask, sit outside the cafe and wait for others to finish their coffee. I know people who did this more than a decade ago. Don't feel obliged to keep up with others or embarrased at being unable to afford a coffee and cake. I happily admit to those I ride with I've changed my cafe spend dramatically because of the cost of living crisis. When I talk to folk they respond with interest and often that they are doing similar.

I could afford a cake but I know there is more shite on the way so I make economies today for what is coming tomorrow. Don't deprive yourself of pleasure and relief from life's troubles because you feel embarrased at not buying cake. That frankly is daft.


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## Jenkins (20 Sep 2022)

I had the email from Bulb today detailing the increase in charges from 1st October...
Electricity: Up 6p per kWh and standing charge up 1p per day
Gas: Up 3p per kWh and standing charge up 1.2p per day.
It's not as bad as I was expecting.


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## Buck (20 Sep 2022)

Jenkins said:


> I had the email from Bulb today detailing the increase in charges from 1st October...
> Electricity: Up 6p per kWh and standing charge up 1p per day
> Gas: Up 3p per kWh and standing charge up 1.2p per day.
> It's not as bad as I was expecting.



I had mine too. I now need to go and work out what this will mean in real terms based on last year’s usage although we are using a little less year on year. Being a true Yorkshireman, we will leave it as long as possible before turning the heating back on 😁


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## gbb (21 Sep 2022)

Buck said:


> When we replaced our boiler all the quotes we got said stay away from a combi as it wouldn’t be effective for us due to the layout of the house and 4 of us / chance of multi showers on a morning etc.
> 
> We went for a non-vented pressurised system which works really well.
> 
> ...



Two experiences...
My mum has a combi in her bungalow. The hot water takes an eternity to reach the tap, no idea why, its easily a minute to get warm, let alone hot.
Our vented system is due for renewal and talking to my son (heating engineer) re combis, they're perfectly ok but only in the right circumstances. What many plumbers / customers try to do is install the smallest to suit their needs when what they should do is fit the biggest. But cost is what drives it and thats why many people end up disappointed with combi boilers, they effectively underspec what they really need.


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## Phaeton (21 Sep 2022)

gbb said:


> What many plumbers / customers try to do is install the smallest to suit their needs when what they should do is fit the biggest. But cost is what drives it and thats why many people end up disappointed with combi boilers, they effectively underspec what they really need.


Interesting that you say that, we've had a 24unit for the past 10-12 years which was slightly bigger than we needed, when we replaced it the plumber suggested a bigger one 32unit as he reckoned they were the dogs dangles, I've noticed we're using more gas than before, I don't think our usage has changed.


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## Buck (21 Sep 2022)

gbb said:


> Two experiences...
> My mum has a combi in her bungalow. The hot water takes an eternity to reach the tap, no idea why, its easily a minute to get warm, let alone hot.
> Our vented system is due for renewal and talking to my son (heating engineer) re combis, they're perfectly ok but only in the right circumstances. What many plumbers / customers try to do is install the smallest to suit their needs when what they should do is fit the biggest. But cost is what drives it and thats why many people end up disappointed with combi boilers, they effectively underspec what they really need.



Absolutely. Often people cut back because they see the cost and don’t realise cheaper has consequences. Also retrofitting a combi boiler to an older house design is apparently less efficient which can sometimes cause problems.


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## Tom B (21 Sep 2022)

Biggest cost saving change I have noticed with my combi is turning the temperatures down. Both on DHw to 55 and heating to 60°c

I'm about to drop off the end of a 2year fixed in December (oh how people laughed when I fixed at a couple of p more)

I've run my figures and it looks at Truss Prices I'll be paying roughly double as an annual average.

I've installed some new LED lights and were being a bit more frugal so hopefully we'll save a bit more. The averages include two years when the missus was on mat leave through winter so hopefully there will be savings there too. We worked as normal through covid so no WFH or extra home "on" costs.


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## gbb (21 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Interesting that you say that, we've had a 24unit for the past 10-12 years which was slightly bigger than we needed, when we replaced it the plumber suggested a bigger one 32unit as he reckoned they were the dogs dangles, I've noticed we're using more gas than before, I don't think our usage has changed.



Logic (for what it's worth given most of us are only theroising) says, bigger output should heat the water quicker, but then thats governed by the temperature you set... perhaps its just a case of 'you can't have it both ways'
You're probably enjoying hot water quicker compared to the old boiler, plus its probably more capable of doing it in a sustained way (filling baths for instance)


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## Mike_P (21 Sep 2022)

Trick with hot water from a combi is to run the tap at a moderate rate and fill a small container up with it (for flushing the loo) or the small sink of a kitchen sink. The water should then (might be two small containers worth) be hot enough to use.


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## mjr (21 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Interesting that you say that, we've had a 24unit for the past 10-12 years which was slightly bigger than we needed, when we replaced it the plumber suggested a bigger one 32unit as he reckoned they were the dogs dangles, I've noticed we're using more gas than before, I don't think our usage has changed.


Oversized is often almost as bad as undersized because there's usually some limit to how low they can modulate, so it ends up overrunning and cycling, which is inefficient. It's slightly better than being undersized and running out of heat or water but it's better to be in the main operating range if possible.


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## gbb (21 Sep 2022)

mjr said:


> Oversized is often almost as bad as undersized because there's usually some limit to how low they can modulate, so it ends up overrunning and cycling, which is inefficient. It's slightly better than being undersized and running out of heat or water but it's better to be in the main operating range if possible.



And there is the very reason i wouldnt have a combi.
As habitual daily bathers, a good supply of hot water is imperative. Before anyone says...yeah, just have showers...nah. Osteo Arthritis leaves me positively aching through the day, every day, all day. If i can't soak for an hour in a hot bath...well, life isnt going to be worth living  A good hot bath is a wonderful thing, it's just about the only time i don't ache.


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## Regular.Cyclist (21 Sep 2022)

I was surprised to see hot water tanks in new build homes when we were moving around 5 years ago.

The home we are in now is less than a decade old but has a hot water tank. It’s only a two bedroom property but each was its own en-suite with a bath and separate, non-electric, shower. There is also a downstairs toilet, with hand washing sink, as well as the kitchen sink. I’ve been told that the demand out on a combi boiler by all the devices capable of using hot water, if used at the same time, would have been in efficient.


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## GuyBoden (21 Sep 2022)

It's interesting that the government state business MWh:

"the government has set a Supported Wholesale Price – expected to be £211 per MWh for electricity and £75 per MWh for gas, less than half the wholesale prices anticipated this winter – which is a discounted price per unit of gas and electricity. This is equivalent to the wholesale element of the Energy Price Guarantee for households."

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-outlines-plans-to-help-cut-energy-bills-for-businesses

So, I think that's, £0.21KWh Elec and £0.07KWh Gas.


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## Tom B (21 Sep 2022)

GuyBoden said:


> It's interesting that the government state business MWh:
> 
> "the government has set a Supported Wholesale Price – expected to be £211 per MWh for electricity and £75 per MWh for gas, less than half the wholesale prices anticipated this winter – which is a discounted price per unit of gas and electricity. This is equivalent to the wholesale element of the Energy Price Guarantee for households."
> 
> ...



It is, but thats the bare stripped back price for the bucket of electrons. Commercial gas and electricity is more complex than that. You'll pay all sorts of fees on top of that.

It stands to reason people buying larger amounts will get a bit of discount too. When I ran a smallish business we paid about £750 a quarter and that was about 15years ago.


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## fossyant (22 Sep 2022)

Absolutely nothing yet from Scottish Power. With careful 'watching' what's left on, we've got electric down to 12 KWh a day for the last three weeks on average, an improvement from 20 !. That said, the heating may be going on soon !


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## jowwy (22 Sep 2022)

fossyant said:


> Absolutely nothing yet from Scottish Power. With careful 'watching' what's left on, we've got electric down to 12 KWh a day for the last three weeks on average, an improvement from 20 !. That said, the heating may be going on soon !



I know you got small adults living at home....but thats still nearly 3 times the amount i use, being 2 adults and working from home. 

Upto now...since midnight we have used 1.76kwh and current base usage is 250wh. So if that stays around there for the next 13hrs we will use around another 3.2kwhs of leccy, so around 5kwh today, but the Mrs got the washing machine on, so that base usage will drop fairly soon.


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## jowwy (22 Sep 2022)

as i pressed send then, the washing machine cycle ended and usage dropped to 130w/h


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## fossyant (22 Sep 2022)

jowwy said:


> I know you got small adults living at home....but thats still nearly 3 times the amount i use, being 2 adults and working from home.
> 
> Upto now...since midnight we have used 1.76kwh and current base usage is 250wh. So if that stays around there for the next 13hrs we will use around another 3.2kwhs of leccy, so around 5kwh today, but the Mrs got the washing machine on, so that base usage will drop fairly soon.



Small adults who use gaming PC's - whilst working, my laptop, two screens and a docking stations uses 45w, same with MrsF and there is usually one of us WFH each day. Gaming PC - uses 200w just idling (3 screens), and upto 500w gaming - we've checked. Just looked now, and son's machine has used 16 KWH over the week, so a little over 2 KWh a day. Multiply this by 2 for daughter's PC.

So 4 KWh a day or more - the machines are on in the evenings only - daughter's on now as she starts Uni next week, and that's idling at 126w (one less screen).

Don't have teens/young adults is the answer ! Speaking to my brother, he was talking with his business partner, and she can't believe how little he uses - large 4 bed detached - two adults working and a 4 year old. His business partner has 3 teens all with gaming set ups.


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## jowwy (22 Sep 2022)

fossyant said:


> Small adults who use gaming PC's - whilst working, my laptop, two screens and a docking stations uses 45w, same with MrsF and there is usually one of us WFH each day. Gaming PC - uses 200w just idling (3 screens), and upto 500w gaming - we've checked. Just looked now, and son's machine has used 16 KWH over the week, so a little over 2 KWh a day. Multiply this by 2 for daughter's PC.
> 
> So 4 KWh a day or more - the machines are on in the evenings only - daughter's on now as she starts Uni next week, and that's idling at 126w (one less screen).
> 
> Don't have teens/young adults is the answer ! Speaking to my brother, he was talking with his business partner, and she can't believe how little he uses - large 4 bed detached - two adults working and a 4 year old. His business partner has 3 teens all with gaming set ups.



yeh its crazy how much power these game machines use.......glad we just got ipads lol


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## icowden (22 Sep 2022)

fossyant said:


> Absolutely nothing yet from Scottish Power. With careful 'watching' what's left on, we've got electric down to 12 KWh a day for the last three weeks on average, an improvement from 20 !. That said, the heating may be going on soon !


We are about the same. 11.5kwh on average for the last month for leccy (about the same for Gas). I work from home, so laptop and big PC going constantly. Then there are 3 TVs, mini fridges (not my idea), the ceramic heater for the tortoises, the PS4 and sundry other items all guzzling electricity. Bulb is trying to make me give them £327 a month minimum even though I am in credit by £300.


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## wiggydiggy (22 Sep 2022)

Just on the subject of PCs I use a Desktop (ex office machine) as a media machine under my TV, I think it's about time I changed that to a small form factor PC which uses less power as I have that on most of the time I'm not working.

I've got a few websites to search, anyone recommend any more?

https://www.pcrenewed.co.uk/
https://www.box.co.uk/
https://www.laptopoutlet.co.uk/
https://www.laptopsdirect.co.uk/


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## fossyant (22 Sep 2022)

wiggydiggy said:


> Just on the subject of PCs I use a Desktop (ex office machine) as a media machine under my TV, I think it's about time I changed that to a small form factor PC which uses less power as I have that on most of the time I'm not working.
> 
> I've got a few websites to search, anyone recommend any more?
> 
> ...



I've an ex work HP Elite Desk G2 SFF - runs off a power adapter so doesn't use much and goes to sleep after 20 minutes. Mainly used for Disney+ as our Smart TV stopped supporting it - also got a newer smaller one that needs formating !


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## wiggydiggy (22 Sep 2022)

fossyant said:


> I've an ex work HP Elite Desk G2 SFF - runs off a power adapter so doesn't use much and goes to sleep after 20 minutes. Mainly used for Disney+ as our Smart TV stopped supporting it - also got a newer smaller one that needs formating !



Yeah that looks good, my current PC is 250w. HP website says that is 120w so less than half.

Gonna keep looking as ideally I want one with HDMI rather than Display Port out but it's not a deal breaker.


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## fossyant (22 Sep 2022)

wiggydiggy said:


> Yeah that looks good, my current PC is 250w. HP website says that is 120w so less than half.
> 
> Gonna keep looking as ideally I want one with HDMI rather than Display Port out but it's not a deal breaker.



Also Elite Desk G3 Mini - that's the one I need to 'format' ! - 65w - I'm sure my G2's are only 65w


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## kipster (22 Sep 2022)

I've just got rid of youngest to university last week, still have eldest lad at home.

We had solar and batteries installed over the summer so the boys considered it free leccy and got into bad habits.

I'm going round and turning things off of standby that are infrequently used. Most bulbs are led. I work from home two days a week, my son 5 days and my wife is retired. I work in IT so have a few PCs laptops tablets etc.. 

My laptop mainly gets used for zwift/turbo trainer but the power brick is 135w (gaming laptop). The PC has a 300w power supply but that hasn't been on for a few days.

I want to upgrade my 10 year old plasma TV to an OLED TV before Christmas so that will bring evening usage down a bit.


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## mistyoptic (22 Sep 2022)

wiggydiggy said:


> Just on the subject of PCs I use a Desktop (ex office machine) as a media machine under my TV, I think it's about time I changed that to a small form factor PC which uses less power as I have that on most of the time I'm not working.
> 
> I've got a few websites to search, anyone recommend any more?
> 
> ...


https://www.novatech.co.uk/


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## SpokeyDokey (23 Sep 2022)

Just got electricity bill increases from Scottish Power and they look very reasonable: better than expected.

Comes to +£199 pa.

Standing charge 40.3 > 42.3p

Day rate 32.6 > 34.2p

Night rate 14.9 > 15.7p

(Economy 7 Tarriff).


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## kipster (23 Sep 2022)

My estimate has got me down at +£650, but that isn't taking the solar panels I've had installed so expect that to drop a bit.

Most of the increase was for gas so I'm wondering how to cut that usage back. I didn't think we used a lot. I guess the broken pump on the underfloor heating in the kitchen might stay not working for the winter.


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## cougie uk (23 Sep 2022)

My supplier has written to tell me my payments are coming down by 50% for the next 6 months. 
I had built up a surplus but I expected it to rise a bit at least. Not telling the wife or the thermostat will be up to 40 degrees all winter.


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## cyberknight (23 Sep 2022)

Bit of good news for a change , because we get disability and carers allowance for mini ck1 we have just had £300 extra this month one off payment to help with costs


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## Tom B (25 Sep 2022)

So I have discovered that my gas smart meter doesn't measure small amounts of gas usage.

Yesterday I wanted to alow cook some oxtail, I found that the small ring on the gas hob was still to hot and focused so I stood the large cast iron pan on top of a cast iron hotplate thingy. I left the thing of form 8am to 5pm on the lowest setting which kept the pan at a nice very slow simmer. 

According the online figures I used no gas until I started using the rest of the hobs.


I think my stove top kettle will live on this ring now!

Next test is to see if the medium rings on low register any use.


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## DCLane (25 Sep 2022)

A BIG reminder from my energy company, who I've fixed for two years with, to provide a reading. Apparently I'm a naughty boy 

All done. We're using about £974pa of electric and £670 of gas on September 2021 fixed prices until September 2023. It means our payment's going down from £152pm to £85pm until next September. Then it'll go UP A LOT as the fixed tariff ends, estimated to be around £350pm. 

With son no. 2 going to university plus me returning to on-site teaching four days a week, plus SWMBO now working five days a week, we'll be using far less electricity and gas over the winter. It'll cost more in bike commuting parts and clothes washing however as I'll have to wear 'proper' clothes plus bike kit.


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## ColinJ (25 Sep 2022)

I just had my projection from BG... 

If I use the same amount of gas and electricity in the next year as I have done in the past 12 months, my bill should go up from £1,000 to around £1,900. 

The £400 government payment will come off that. 

As a pensioner, I think I should now get the winter fuel allowance, and if I understand it correctly, that would be £500 for me?

So, fingers crossed, my costs should stay the same!


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## mjr (25 Sep 2022)

DCLane said:


> It'll cost more in bike commuting parts and clothes washing however as I'll have to wear 'proper' clothes plus bike kit.


If it's too far to commute in proper clothes, wouldn't it be better to wear only the bike clothes and change after the ride? 🤡


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## DCLane (25 Sep 2022)

mjr said:


> If it's too far to commute in proper clothes, wouldn't it be better to wear only the bike clothes and change after the ride? 🤡



It's a 12-mile each-way commute. Cycling clothes for the commute and work clothes, although I've several suits plus shoes left permanently at my workplace.


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## PaulSB (27 Sep 2022)

I wonder if anyone could help with this because I am at my wits end with British Gas and have no idea how or where I should go to resolve my difficulties. All the tariffs, bills shown are from "My Account" or BG email and not any general statement on BG website. The situation is this:

People's Energy failed and I was switched to BG from 01/11/2021
With every supplier I have always recorded and submitted my own readings
Billed 09/12/2021 and 22/12/2021
Billing ceased until I chased up and was eventually billed 30/03/2022 for £520.65 which was a shock. Agree I should have chased sooner
Bills proved to have a variety of issues each month from January to July each of which I contacted BG about. Each time an issue was corrected a new issue arose
09/08/2022 by chance I spoke to an individual who grasped the problem and undertook to correct the situation. This took 90 minutes on the phone and resulted in my opening readings on 01/11/2021 being revised upwards putting me in credit
15/08/2022 all previous bills cancelled and replaced by a single bill for 01/11/2021 to 14/08/2021. It was complex and while I could probably check it accurately can't stand the heartache. This revision put me £140.36 in credit
I was advised to always submit my readings on the 19th of the month to comply with the billing cycle. My intention was to take readings on 19/09/2022
17/09/2022 a new bill arrived for the period 01/11/2021 to 06/09/2022 placing me £211.42 in credit. On the BG website this bill shows as £883.76 but when I open the bill the total is £839.28
At this point I gave up. Created a new spreadsheet to record readings, calculate my likely costs each month and set the money to one side to pay when a solution is eventually reached. I resolved not to contact BG as it simply makes me angry and is unlikely to improve matters
That is the history. After receiving email on 22/09/2022 advising charges from 01/10/2022 I doublechecked costs etc and found the following:

BG website current tariff Gas 10.326/kWh standing charge 28.485/day. Electric 33.476/kWh standing charge 43.26/day
Most recent bill tariff Gas 6.993/kWh standing charge 25.923. Electric 26.686/kWh standing charge 40.23/day. These are costs shown as at 14/08/22
BG email 22/09/2022 states current tariff Gas 7.343/kWh standing charge 27.220/day. Electric 28.021/kWh standing charge 42.242/day
BG email 22/09/2022 states tariff from 01/10/2022 will be Gas 10.326/kWh standing charge 28.485/day. Electric 33.476/kWh standing charge 43.26/day. This is exactly the same as the tariff BG shows on My Account today
I like to think of myself as a reasonably intelligent individual. I am at a complete loss as to what is going on and more importantly do not understand what I should be paying now or what my costs will be from 01/10/2022. I'm very worried I will end up with a huge bill which I have not set aside enough money for. Finally I have absolutely no idea where to go for help. Do I go to the ombudsman? Do I have to set all this out in a letter to BG first (complaints are only taken in letter form, not email)?

I have no confidence whatsoever in BG to resolve the situation. I have contacted BG at least once a month for eight months and no one seems capable of correcting the situation. At least I've got it off my chest somewhere!!!


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## jowwy (27 Sep 2022)

PaulSB said:


> I wonder if anyone could help with this because I am at my wits end with British Gas and have no idea how or where I should go to resolve my difficulties. All the tariffs, bills shown are from "My Account" or BG email and not any general statement on BG website. The situation is this:
> 
> People's Energy failed and I was switched to BG from 01/11/2021
> With every supplier I have always recorded and submitted my own readings
> ...



Any complaints would firstly have to go to British Gas and then they would have a certain time to reply with an answer. if your not happy with their reply, then you would forward all correspondence to the ombudsman for them to look into the situation. reading the above it would seem you have a very valid case for maladministration on behalf of BG......

https://www.britishgas.co.uk/complaints.html

It does state in their complaints process that you can complain via webform, live chat, telephone or by post

















When you make a complaint via their webform, you have a few questions and then you have these options


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## DaveReading (27 Sep 2022)

jowwy said:


> It does state in their complaints process that you can complain via webform, live chat, telephone or by post


In that situation, I'd be tempted to go for this option:

"You can also visit one of our offices to talk about your complaint face-to-face. Call us to find out where your nearest one is."


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## Phaeton (27 Sep 2022)

Last time I complained to BG it was via the webform, you then go backwards & forwards multiple times & at some point in the future you reach Deadlock if they can't sort it out, you need notification from them that Deadlock has been reached before you can go to the Ombudsman.


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## jowwy (27 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Last time I complained to BG it was via the webform, you then go backwards & forwards multiple times & at some point in the future you reach Deadlock if they can't sort it out, you need notification from them that Deadlock has been reached before you can go to the Ombudsman.



Thats were companies like BG cheese me off. It should have a clear 3 stage complaints policy.....

Step 1 - Complain - Investigation - response ( 15 days to investigate and respond ) 
Step 2 - Appeal Stage 1 reply ( 10 days to investigate and respond) 
Step 3 - Not happy with appeal - go to ombudsman

No backwards and forwards......just 3 simple easy steps, with a timescale between each one clearly defined, that way you can hold them clearly accountable for issues and hold them to their policy.


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## Phaeton (27 Sep 2022)

I'm currently in dispute with Severn Trent, I raised the complaint 3rd August 2021, I have been trying to get a Deadlock letter from them since June (I think) this year


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## jowwy (27 Sep 2022)

just switched to octopus flexible tarrif, ready for when the solar is fitted and can then switch to their outgoing tariff @15p/kwh

Happy days......solar being fitted next tuesday. so will be all good and ready for the exports to go towards monthly costs.


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## kipster (27 Sep 2022)

My SEG export went live last week on Octopus agile. I think I exported 61kwh from Thursday to Sunday, and 9 kwh yesterday. I seem to be importing about 1kwh a day somehow. But overall a profit on electric. 

Most of my export is currently from 2pm after the batteries are charged and the water is heated.


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## Phaeton (27 Sep 2022)

jowwy said:


> just switched to octopus flexible tarrif, ready for when the solar is fitted and can then switch to their outgoing tariff @15p/kwh
> 
> Happy days......solar being fitted next tuesday. so will be all good and ready for the exports to go towards monthly costs.



It's addictive watching the flow of electricity, if you had of said you were going to Octopus you could have had my (or others) referral link & got £50


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## jowwy (27 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> It's addictive watching the flow of electricity, if you had of said you were going to Octopus you could have had my (or others) referral link & got £50



i had a referral from the solar thread....ive posted my code there if anyone wants to use it


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## jowwy (27 Sep 2022)

kipster said:


> My SEG export went live last week on Octopus agile. I think I exported 61kwh from Thursday to Sunday, and 9 kwh yesterday. I seem to be importing about 1kwh a day somehow. But overall a profit on electric.
> 
> Most of my export is currently from 2pm after the batteries are charged and the water is heated.



i dont have batteries, so mine will mostly be going to export as we only use 4/5kwh a day


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## Alex321 (27 Sep 2022)

kipster said:


> My SEG export went live last week on Octopus agile. I think I exported 61kwh from Thursday to Sunday, and 9 kwh yesterday. I seem to be importing about 1kwh a day somehow. But overall a profit on electric.
> 
> Most of my export is currently from 2pm after the batteries are charged and the water is heated.



Mine will be similar. Finally got the battery installed yesterday. It didn't start charging until afternoon, so it only reached 28% charge yesterday, and that got used up in the evening, so we did use some import.

But already at 31% today, so should have enough to last overnight easily by the end of daylight today.

I think the small import is the system checking that AC power is connected - though I don't think mine will be as much as 1kWh, it was rarely above 30W yesterday while the battery was discharging, and less than that a lot of the time.


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## Milkfloat (27 Sep 2022)

From my research the small imports often occur when a big change has happened in your system, for example someone turning on the kettle an oven at the same time. This results in a big spike that takes a few seconds/minutes to sort out in the invertor as it furiously tries to divert solar and battery power. I was worried when I first saw this and was monitoring furiously and pulling log files for a deeper analysis, I was even seeing solar charging the battery at the same time as the grid powering the house, it only really happens for a short amount of time and so does not really cost much.


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## gbb (3 Oct 2022)

Latest bill in from Bulb last night
£114 last month
£111 this bill.
One thing we have noticed. Reduced quite dramatically the hot water run times...and that did reduce bills, but it's also made the house colder, particularly in the mornings.


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## GuyBoden (3 Oct 2022)

Oct 1st 2022 changes.

"*If you’re on a standard variable tariff*

The average unit price for dual fuel customers paying by direct debit will be limited to 34.0p/kWh for electricity and 10.3p/kWh for gas, inclusive of VAT, from 1 October.

These unit prices have been passed to suppliers to ensure that they are used to calculate bills in Great Britain from 1 October.

Energy suppliers will adjust standard variable tariffs automatically. Customers on standard variable tariffs do not need to take any action to get the benefits of this scheme.

The Energy Bills Support Scheme (£400 discount) will also be applied as a monthly or quarterly discount to your bill."

"*If you’re on a fixed rate tariff*

Fixed tariff customers will have the same support where appropriate. Unit price reductions of up to 17p/kWh for electricity and 4.2p/kWh for gas will apply to fixed tariff customers that currently have unit rates above the EPG.

A ‘floor’ unit price for gas averaging at 10.3p/kWh and for electricity averaging at 34p/kWh for direct debit customers will be introduced, because some people will have fixed at much lower prices some time ago, meaning their annual payments will already be below the £2,500 average set by the Energy Price Guarantee.

Customers on fixed rate tariffs that are already below the floor unit prices will continue to enjoy those low rates, but will not receive a further discount for the duration of their fixed term.

For the small number of consumers who fixed at a high rate exceeding the October Ofgem price cap of £3,549, they will receive the full discount of 17p for electricity and 4.2p for gas. However, given the higher starting point, their fixed rate tariff will still have a unit rate that is above the EPG rates.

Energy suppliers will adjust fixed tariffs automatically. Customers on fixed tariffs do not need to take any action to get the benefits of this scheme. Any transfer to a different tariff is a matter for suppliers.

The Energy Bills Support Scheme will be paid on top of this as a monthly or quarterly discount to your bill, totalling £400 from October to March."

"*Standing charges*

Average standing charges for customers on default tariffs will remain capped in line with the levels set (in Great Britain) by Ofgem for the default tariff cap from 1 October, at 46p per day for electricity and 28p per day for gas, for a typical dual fuel customer paying by direct debit. Standing charges for households in Northern Ireland will also be unaffected."

Info from here:https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ergy-bills-support-factsheet-8-september-2022


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## wiggydiggy (11 Oct 2022)

Does turning radiators in the house off in rooms not being used (but still heating other occupied rooms) save any money, or is it counter productive as the hot rooms are competing with the cold ones?

I used to do this a lot at my old house, but TBH I don't really know if it does or not.


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## Phaeton (11 Oct 2022)

I think it depends on the house & which rooms you are thinking of, if it's an old house or has North facing walls, then it's a good idea to turn them right down but still have some heat going through them. On a modern well insulated house switching them off might be a good idea.

There was a study on whether it was better to leave the heating on low during the day whilst at work or to switch off & then switch on when you come home, keeping it a a low temperature as opposed to allowing it to cool down & have to heat up from a lower temperature, they found very little difference. I know it's not the asked question but others might be thinking of it.


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## fossyant (11 Oct 2022)

£66 Energy refund arrived in the bank this morning. SP are refunding rather than knocking off the bill.


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## wiggydiggy (11 Oct 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I think it depends on the house & which rooms you are thinking of, if it's an old house or has North facing walls, then it's a good idea to turn them right down but still have some heat going through them. On a modern well insulated house switching them off might be a good idea.
> 
> There was a study on whether it was better to leave the heating on low during the day whilst at work or to switch off & then switch on when you come home, keeping it a a low temperature as opposed to allowing it to cool down & have to heat up from a lower temperature, they found very little difference. I know it's not the asked question but others might be thinking of it.



It's a modern house with good insulation, 2 the rooms I don't want to heat are north facing yes but one is my office (I use a small oil filled radiator and keep door closed when I'm working) and the other the bedroom which I never want to heat. I'm not running CH yet but once I start I think I'll keep them off.


fossyant said:


> £66 Energy refund arrived in the bank this morning. SP are refunding rather than knocking off the bill.



Shell knocked mine off the bill, confused me for a bit as I'd forgotten about it.


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## ianrauk (11 Oct 2022)

fossyant said:


> £66 Energy refund arrived in the bank this morning. SP are refunding rather than knocking off the bill.



Got the same back into my account today from EDF


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## cougie uk (11 Oct 2022)

The increases have made me focus on my electric usage more closely. Checking the smart meter I noticed a higher usage than normal and found out that the new lamp hasn't got an energy saving bulb in. Put one in and reduced the energy usage on it by 2/3.


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## jowwy (11 Oct 2022)

octopus put mine onto my account, so im £66 in credit now, so it can go against the joint energy bill


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## Mo1959 (11 Oct 2022)

Just happened to check my bank statement earlier and noticed the £66 paid in from SSE.


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## Mike_P (11 Oct 2022)

Shell have just sent me an email of an updated direct debit of £144 with small text below saying the £66 deduction is not included in the figure.


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## fossyant (11 Oct 2022)

cougie uk said:


> The increases have made me focus on my electric usage more closely. Checking the smart meter I noticed a higher usage than normal and found out that the new lamp hasn't got an energy saving bulb in. Put one in and reduced the energy usage on it by 2/3.



If it's a halogen swapped to a LED, you'll use just 10%. We had a light with 8 x 20w capsule halogens in (energy saving), swapped to 2w LED, and also no heat output.


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## fossyant (11 Oct 2022)

I checked my billing statement with SP, and it said £66 energy credit on account then a £66 debit - I suppose each supplier is dealing with it different.


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## jowwy (11 Oct 2022)

When i switched to octopus last week, i had to pay a one off direct debit to them of £302 and then after that a variable DD for payment of used energy. So as of now with the Rebate off £66 i am £368 in credit, plus on the 16th i will have the £50 referal added to my account. so in essence £418 in credit for the start of winter, im hoping after the solar gets fitted next week, that i wont be paying much of any bills for a few months as the credit gets drawn down and then i'll be adding to that by selling solar back to the grid.


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## presta (13 Oct 2022)

Mike_P said:


> Shell have just sent me an email of an updated direct debit of £144 with small text below saying the £66 deduction is not included in the figure.



Shell say that they'll deduct the £66 from your Direct Debit, but they haven't, they've just added it to the credit on my account and the DD hasn't changed:










They're also claiming my consumption has gone up ~80% when it hasn't.


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## Ming the Merciless (13 Oct 2022)

Bulb have credited my account with the £66 for this month.


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## wiggydiggy (13 Oct 2022)

presta said:


> Shell say that they'll deduct the £66 from your Direct Debit, but they haven't, they've just added it to the credit on my account and the DD hasn't changed:
> View attachment 664435
> 
> 
> ...



Give them a call? My £66 was definately deducted from my DD by them.


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## Ming the Merciless (13 Oct 2022)

We’ve returned from a weeks holiday. Looking at the smart meter data it cost £1 a day when we aren’t in house and things are just ticking over. With roughly 50% of that being standing charges. It splits 75% electric and 25% gas near enough.


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## ColinJ (13 Oct 2022)

The £66 credit appeared in my account PLUS another £30 for BG messing up my smart meter upgrade, so my pre-winter quarterly bill is now only...

_*£21!!!*_


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## Pat "5mph" (13 Oct 2022)

presta said:


> Shell say that they'll deduct the £66 from your Direct Debit, but they haven't, they've just added it to the credit on my account and the DD hasn't changed:
> View attachment 664435
> 
> 
> ...


Shell here too: yes, they increased my DD to 113 (!!! I live alone, not wfh either) but then they credit the 66 separately.
I think they estimate an increase not because we increase the consumption, but because the prices went up again.


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## Jenkins (13 Oct 2022)

Taking into account the increased prices & the £66 rebate, my direct debit this month was £18.14 to Bulb (dual fuel)

Next month (and until the rebate ends) it will be £50 as I've increased it to the maximum they would allow to build up a bit of credit as I expect to be using more energy being at home more now.


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## Petrichorwheels (13 Oct 2022)

presta said:


> Shell say that they'll deduct the £66 from your Direct Debit, but they haven't, they've just added it to the credit on my account and the DD hasn't changed:
> View attachment 664435
> 
> 
> ...



well that's shell - you can be sure of shell - see other thread.
am a low user on Octopus - they have put me on a direct debit holiday for the duration of the government thing.
I didn't even have to ask for/suggest this.


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## DCLane (13 Oct 2022)

I'm with Sainsbury's Energy on a 2-year fixed tariff, with one year to go, and they've credited my account with £66 this month - which I'm guessing they'll do for the next few months like others.


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## vickster (14 Oct 2022)

£66 credited by Octopus, £189 in credit now so my DD has reduced from £92 to about £25, will see how the winter goes


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## Scaleyback (14 Oct 2022)

I post this with no connection to the company other than a satisfied buyer.
Most of us are looking for ways to 'soften' the financial blow of the energy price increases.
Many experts are advocating " heat the person not the space " in fact Octopus energy (my supplier) are giving away 10,000 free electric blankets to their most vulnerable customers.

In Amazon's Prime sale recently I have purchased my wife & I one each of Padded Heated vest

It's not a vest, as we Brit's know it, it's a Gilet. Made by an American company ' Ororo' Don't let that £159.00 price stop you in your tracks, you will find them cheaper.
I paid £120.00 each for mine, sure still a lot of money for many people but I reckon by running the central heating a degree or two lower throughout the coldest winter months
these can probably pay for themselves. Let's face it, being cold is no fun is it ?
There are many other 'heated vests' at lower prices. I choose Ororo because all the reviews I read placed this particular vest in the top 1 or 2.
This particular vest has 4 heated areas, front either side around the pockets, rear central back and rear collar. many lower priced vests have less heating areas.
It is a quality item, fit, finish top class and looks just like a normal Gilet, apart from the small indicator on the top collar that 'glows' Red = Max, White = Med, Blue = Low.
Just press this indicator to 'cycle' through the settings.
We have bought ours primarily to wear indoors, we walk a lot and generate our own heat so cannot imagine we would need this outdoors. However if you were outdoors and stationary
for any length of time, watching sport etc this vest would be great.
Only had ours a couple of days but very impressed ! sure not really cold yet but testing it on low heat it's just right. Cannot see us ever needing Max heat but hey ! everyones
different eh ? On low heat the battery is said to last 10 hours, Med = 6 hrs & High 3-4 hrs. Spare batteries are available.
Stay warm folks.


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## jowwy (14 Oct 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> I post this with no connection to the company other than a satisfied buyer.
> Most of us are looking for ways to 'soften' the financial blow of the energy price increases.
> Many experts are advocating " heat the person not the space " in fact Octopus energy (my supplier) are giving away 10,000 free electric blankets to their most vulnerable customers.
> 
> ...



so £240 for two heated Gilets and what about the electric to charge them back up or cost of re-usable batteries???....how much gas would that buy you to warm the house and stop it getting damp??? and what about legs, arms, feet?? what do you do with those??


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## Ming the Merciless (14 Oct 2022)

DCLane said:


> I'm with Sainsbury's Energy on a 2-year fixed tariff, with one year to go, and they've credited my account with £66 this month - which I'm guessing they'll do for the next few months like others.



£66 this and next month, then £67 Dec through March


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## Scaleyback (14 Oct 2022)

jowwy said:


> so £240 for two heated Gilets and what about the electric to charge them back up or cost of re-usable batteries???....how much gas would that buy you to warm the house and stop it getting damp??? and what about legs, arms, feet?? what do you do with those??



One at a time 🙄 Cost of charging small batteries like this is negligible, I read £1.09 a year if you charge your smartphone every day. Re-usable batteries are not relevant here. Legs, arms & feet, if your core is warm the blood flow to your extremities is increased and they will be warmer. How much gas would that buy to warm the house ? Pass, are you going to. tell me ?


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## cougie uk (14 Oct 2022)

jowwy said:


> so £240 for two heated Gilets and what about the electric to charge them back up or cost of re-usable batteries???....how much gas would that buy you to warm the house and stop it getting damp??? and what about legs, arms, feet?? what do you do with those??



By my calculations each full charge would be about 2p per vest. 

And as a cyclist you'd know about keeping a warm core to warm your extremities. 

If you think about it - it's far more efficient to warm the person directly than a whole house. 

Have you taken any action on energy use Jowwy ?


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## jowwy (14 Oct 2022)

cougie uk said:


> *3. By my calculations each full charge would be about 2p per vest
> 
> 2. And as a cyclist you'd know about keeping a warm core to warm your extremities.
> 
> ...



if you read this full thread you will see what actions i have taken on energy....i also only use circa 4/5kwh a day electric and will be less when the solar power gets fitted on Tuesday of next week.

1. That wont stop your house getting damp and cold in winter though....

2. I'll tell my mrs to stop complaining about her hands and feet being cold then, because her core is nice and warm......as a cyclist your feet and legs are still moving, where as sat watching TV is a little different. But im sure she will understand hey

3. not sure what calculations your using as there is no wattage of the vest or Wh of the batteries being used, so maybe you could tell us what they are, because i cant see them in the post??


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## cougie uk (14 Oct 2022)

jowwy said:


> if you read this full thread you will see what actions i have taken on energy....i also only use circa 4/5kwh a day electric and will be less when the solar power gets fitted on Tuesday of next week.



Yeah I'm not reading 100 pages.

The payback on your solar panels is a good few years isn't it?
I dare say the gilets will pay back even sooner. 

Both good ways to save money.


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## Scaleyback (14 Oct 2022)

jowwy said:


> if you read this full thread you will see what actions i have taken on energy....i also only use circa 4/5kwh a day electric and will be less when the solar power gets fitted on Tuesday of next week.



Jowwy, my post was solely to inform members of this (heated gilet) option. Members will then presumably make up their minds. It appears you consider your "actions I have taken on energy" are a superior way to cut costs and have decided to use my post as an entry to promote this. Please excuse me if I don't read the full thread. 🤪


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## jowwy (14 Oct 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> Jowwy, my post was solely to inform members of this (heated gilet) option. Members will then presumably make up their minds. *It appears you consider your "actions I have taken on energy" are a superior way to cut costs and have decided to use my post as an entry to promote this*. Please excuse me if I don't read the full thread. 🤪



nope - i have not said such a thing........


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## Ming the Merciless (14 Oct 2022)

An alternate to the gilet is a blanket and hot water bottle.


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## jowwy (14 Oct 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Yeah I'm not reading 100 pages.
> 
> The payback on your solar panels is a good few years isn't it?
> I dare say the gilets will pay back even sooner.
> ...



until you have to repair damp and mould damage......


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## jowwy (14 Oct 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> An alternate to the gilet is a blanket and hot water bottle.



totally agree, covers the whole body and can use the water bottle as extra heat for the core.......but again, you still need to keep the house warm to stave off damp and mould issues


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## Scaleyback (14 Oct 2022)

My plan for our heated vests is not to turn off the central heating. it's already been on for 3 weeks. I currently have my Hive set to 19 degrees for when we get up in the morning. Then I turn it down to 18 degrees during the day when we are moving about more. Currently set at 18 it rarely ever 'kicks in' between approx 9a.m - 5 pm. Plenty of sunny days help here of course. If by using these vests during the hours of approx 9am - 5pm I can run the heating througout winter at 18 or maybe 17 degrees before turning the heating backup to 19 or maybe 20 after 5pm the reduction in gas usuage will go a long way (all the way ? ) to paying for these heated vests.
Incidentally I read where an average indoor temp of 15 degress is sufficient to keep the house damp free. Assuming you are not drying wet washing indoors etc etc


----------



## vickster (14 Oct 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Yeah I'm not reading 100 pages.
> 
> The payback on your solar panels is a good few years isn't it?
> I dare say the gilets will pay back even sooner.
> ...



Indeed, how much to install the solar and how long estimated to break even?


----------



## Milkfloat (14 Oct 2022)

I paid £23 for my heated vest, currently wearing it now as I work from home at a computer all day and it can get quite cold. I also have a heated throw for my legs. If it gets too bad I get out the fingerless gloves.


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## cougie uk (14 Oct 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> An alternate to the gilet is a blanket and hot water bottle.



Which is fine on the sofa but a bit rubbish if you're moving round the house. 

And I bet the kettle is more expensive electric wise than the gilet.


----------



## jowwy (14 Oct 2022)

vickster said:


> Indeed, how much to install the solar and how long estimated to break even?



all according how big a system you buy and how much electric you use .....but for me, its also a moral obligation to myself in trying to cut energy and produce my own....so for me payback doesn't come into it.

By next year i know my sell back to the grid, will well outweigh my draw down from the grid.....so win, win from my point of view


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## vickster (14 Oct 2022)

Smallish 3 bedroom house, about £50 a month on current contract including standing charges


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## jowwy (14 Oct 2022)

vickster said:


> Smallish 3 bedroom house, about £50 a month on current contract including standing charges



that means nothing to be honest....need to know WH's used per month, current rate for electric etc etc etc


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## vickster (14 Oct 2022)

Well I'd need to look that up later


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## Ming the Merciless (14 Oct 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Which is fine on the sofa but a bit rubbish if you're moving round the house.
> 
> And I bet the kettle is more expensive electric wise than the gilet.



Less than 2p a boil and if moving around you’ll be warm enough anyway. Plus a lot cheaper than upfront £120 per person.


----------



## vickster (14 Oct 2022)

vickster said:


> Well I'd need to look that up later


From mid July to mid August as example


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## jowwy (14 Oct 2022)

vickster said:


> From mid July to mid August as example



for the year would be better off your bill...they predict how much electric you will use, thats the best figure to give

My system is costing me 5.3k to have fitted....thats for a 3.2kwh system, Hybrid inverter, no battery storage.


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## lazybloke (14 Oct 2022)

My meter readings are considerably lower than expected. With standing charges and the energy support discount my October energy bill is on target to be about £30.

Far too low, must be a maths error.


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## Ming the Merciless (14 Oct 2022)

lazybloke said:


> My meter readings are considerably lower than expected. With standing charges and the energy support discount my October energy bill is on target to be about £30.
> 
> Far too low, must be a maths error.



Why do you say that, that works out at £96 a month for joint electric / gas which is more than a number of us are paying.


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## Ming the Merciless (14 Oct 2022)

vickster said:


> From mid July to mid August as example



Shows you did well with the fixed tarrif. You are using more electric and almost twice as much gas as we did over same period yet your bill is not much higher than ours.


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## presta (14 Oct 2022)

.


jowwy said:


> 1. That wont stop your house getting damp and cold in winter though....


You don't need to turn the heating down to nothing.


jowwy said:


> 2. I'll tell my mrs to stop complaining about her hands and feet being cold then, because her core is nice and warm......as a cyclist your feet and legs are still moving, where as sat watching TV is a little different. But im sure she will understand hey


If your core is warm your body won't restrict the blood flow to the extremities.


jowwy said:


> there is no wattage of the vest or Wh of the batteries being used


Yes there is. The three heat levels are 3.5W, 6W & 12W, the battery is 35.52Wh.

The payback time is quite long though. Based on reducing my 7400kWh winter gas consumption by just 10%, gas 10.29/kWh, elec 35.07/kWh, and two gilets costing £160 on max heat for 16 hours a day for 86 days with ~75% charge efficiency, it would take about 5 winters to cover the cost. It might be quite economic for one person though, especially if you can reduce gas use by more than the 10% I've assumed.


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## presta (14 Oct 2022)

cougie uk said:


> If you think about it - it's far more efficient to warm the person directly than a whole house.


Indeed, heat loss from the body is ~100-120W, my peak gas use in mid winter is ~4kW. It would be more efficient still if they'd made it in the form of a vest/underwear, rather than a gilet though, for the same reason that you put central heating _in _the house, not _around _the house.


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## gbb (14 Oct 2022)

How to make savings seems on everyone's mind but doing so creates problems, albeit minor ones.
I've noticed the house is colder since we switched from hot water 24/7 to just timed periods. Boiler is on less, hot water tank cools more...less background heat generated in the house.
Granddaughter (17) is having to limit her jiu jitsu sessions to twice a week, she just can't get her gi's (ghees) dry. They're quite heavy duty material, take ages to dry without heat input and absolutely need washing every session. Get some more gi's I suggested....I've got 4 of them she said, its still a struggle to get them dry.


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## Milkfloat (14 Oct 2022)

presta said:


> Indeed, heat loss from the body is ~100-120W, my peak gas use in mid winter is ~4kW. It would be more efficient still if they'd made it in the form of a vest/underwear, rather than a gilet though, for the same reason that you put central heating _in _the house, not _around _the house.



I wear mine under my hoody for that reason


View: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B08LKPLV5F/


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## Buck (14 Oct 2022)

As a slight aside, damp in a house is not a product of temperature directly. 

It is humidity combined with temperature variation between two zones. 

That is why roofs are described as hot or cold. 

Poor ventilation is an example of a cause of mould followed by roofing issues/water ingress. 

Not heating a house in itself does not cause mould.


----------



## Milkfloat (14 Oct 2022)

gbb said:


> How to make savings seems on everyone's mind but doing so creates problems, albeit minor ones.
> I've noticed the house is colder since we switched from hot water 24/7 to just timed periods. Boiler is on less, hot water tank cools more...less background heat generated in the house.
> Granddaughter (17) is having to limit her jiu jitsu sessions to twice a week, she just can't get her gi's (ghees) dry. They're quite heavy duty material, take ages to dry without heat input and absolutely need washing every session. Get some more gi's I suggested....I've got 4 of them she said, its still a struggle to get them dry.



Sounds like you need to insulate your tank. If you want to speed up drying then a dehumidifier is your friend and significantly cheaper than heating the house.


----------



## lazybloke (14 Oct 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Why do you say that, that works out at £96 a month for joint electric / gas which is more than a number of us are paying.



Because my precious projections were over £3,000 a year for elec alone!!! so a month at £96 suggests our energy efficiency measures are working.


----------



## jowwy (14 Oct 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Shows you did well with the fixed tarrif. You are using more electric and almost twice as much gas as we did over same period yet your bill is not much higher than ours.



Yup here electric and gas usage is higher than mine, but less cost due to the great tariff she is on


----------



## Scaleyback (14 Oct 2022)

Buck said:


> As a slight aside, damp in a house is not a product of temperature directly.
> 
> It is humidity combined with temperature variation between two zones.
> 
> ...



Buck is spot on. Simply put, cold air does not hold moisture. Warm air holds moisture and gives up this moisture when it meets a cold surface, i.e your bedroom windows overnight. That outside wall behind the wardrobe. How do you stop condensation and subsequent mould ? 
1. Avoid where possible, boiling kettles, boiling saucepans on stoves, running baths with open doors, drying clothes indoors.
2. Adequate ventilation where humidity is unavoidable.
3. This is the 'killer' keep your house sufficiently warm to avoid cold spots in rooms, windows etc so the warm humid air retains it's moisture.
Read about 'The Dew point vs Humidity.


----------



## wiggydiggy (14 Oct 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> Buck is spot on. Simply put, cold air does not hold moisture. Warm air holds moisture and gives up this moisture when it meets a cold surface, i.e your bedroom windows overnight. That outside wall behind the wardrobe. How do you stop condensation and subsequent mould ?
> 1. Avoid where possible, boiling kettles, boiling saucepans on stoves, running baths with open doors, drying clothes indoors.
> 2. Adequate ventilation where humidity is unavoidable.
> 3. This is the 'killer' keep your house sufficiently warm to avoid cold spots in rooms, windows etc so the warm humid air retains it's moisture.
> Read about 'The Dew point vs Humidity.



My bathroom window is per,anently open to ventilate it, helps keep the smell down as I work on a 'if it's yellow let it mellow, if its brown flush it down' lol

I've also started running my extractor fan when boiling the kettle.


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## mjr (14 Oct 2022)

vickster said:


> From mid July to mid August as example


You might want to edit out your meter point reference and serial numbers. Probably paranoia on my part, but I think they identify you uniquely (although they don't locate you).


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## gbb (14 Oct 2022)

Milkfloat said:


> Sounds like you need to insulate your tank. If you want to speed up drying then a dehumidifier is your friend and significantly cheaper than heating the house.



I don't actually know the thickness of the foam insulation, its over 50 years old and being replaced in a couple weeks, so I might find out then (out of interest)
Our loft insulation is around a foot thick but the real reason for heat loss overnight is open windows. With no input from the CH, the house will generally maintain 16c at current outside temps, dropping to 14, maybe a little lower in the real cold. 
It might be psychological but the house does feel colder since we reduced HW times...walk in the boiler or airing cupboard before, there was residual heat, now they're pretty cool in the mornings.

I suggested GD should get a desktop fan or similar to get air movement onto her gear, that might help. 

Dehumidifiers are often mentioned...do they actually draw the moisture from clothing ? Or is air movement better ? Questions questions


----------



## Pat "5mph" (14 Oct 2022)

vickster said:


> £66 credited by Octopus, £189 in credit now so my DD has reduced from £92 to about £25, will see how the winter goes


I'm over £200 in credit (dual fuel, ground floor 2 bed flat, single occupancy, not wfh), and yet Shell increased my DD from 93 to 115 (66 refunded separately)
Are we allowed to switch yet?


----------



## vickster (14 Oct 2022)

Pat 5mph said:


> I'm over £200 in credit (dual fuel, ground floor 2 bed flat, single occupancy, not wfh), and yet Shell increased my DD from 93 to 115 (66 refunded separately)
> Are we allowed to switch yet?



The advice is not to, or was. See what Martin Lewis has to say.
Octopus weren’t taking new customers a while back when I looked for my parents.
You don’t have to accept their increase surely if in credit?!


----------



## Pat "5mph" (14 Oct 2022)

I can't see a way to set my own DD on the Shell site, will have another look.
Ta for the tip.


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## Milkfloat (14 Oct 2022)

gbb said:


> I don't actually know the thickness of the foam insulation, its over 50 years old and being replaced in a couple weeks, so I might find out then (out of interest)
> Our loft insulation is around a foot thick but the real reason for heat loss overnight is open windows. With no input from the CH, the house will generally maintain 16c at current outside temps, dropping to 14, maybe a little lower in the real cold.
> It might be psychological but the house does feel colder since we reduced HW times...walk in the boiler or airing cupboard before, there was residual heat, now they're pretty cool in the mornings.
> 
> ...



A 50 year old tank is going to be horribly inefficient. A new tank will have at least 60mm of foam insulation. Make sure that the plumber pays you for the old tank, there will be a decent amount of copper you can scrap in a 50 year old tank.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (14 Oct 2022)

lazybloke said:


> Because my precious projections were over £3,000 a year for elec alone!!! so a month at £96 suggests our energy efficiency measures are working.



£3,000 a year, wow your Christmas lights display must be amazing.


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## lazybloke (14 Oct 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> £3,000 a year, wow your Christmas lights display must be amazing.


Have been investigating things around the house in recent weeks to see what trickles away the units overnight; various chargers and games consoles that really do need to be unplugged when not in use. We're a bit too fond of using the electric ovens; considering an air-fryer.

But what I really need to do is sell the teenaged children.


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## jowwy (14 Oct 2022)

lazybloke said:


> Have been investigating things around the house in recent weeks to see what trickles away the units overnight; various chargers and games consoles that really do need to be unplugged when not in use. We're a bit too fond of using the electric ovens; considering an air-fryer.
> 
> But what I really need to do is sell the teenaged children.



3k is a lot of electric……what unit price did you base it on???


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## Alex321 (14 Oct 2022)

vickster said:


> Octopus weren’t taking new customers a while back when I looked for my parents.



They have general advice against switching, and will not even provide an online quote. 

But they are perfectly willing to take you on if you explain your situation and why it is worth you switching.


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## ColinJ (14 Oct 2022)

Milkfloat said:


> *A 50 year old tank is going to be horribly inefficient.* A new tank will have at least 60mm of foam insulation. Make sure that the plumber pays you for the old tank, there will be a decent amount of copper you can scrap in a 50 year old tank.



And potentially rotten!

My sister recently had an old water tank taken out of her attic when a combi-boiler was fitted to the house. The water supply to the tank had been turned off and most of the water drained, and then the heating engineer noticed a dribble of water coming from the base of the tank. He got a bucket under it just in time to catch what water was left in the tank. The base of the tank had corroded right through...


----------



## cougie uk (14 Oct 2022)

lazybloke said:


> Have been investigating things around the house in recent weeks to see what trickles away the units overnight; various chargers and games consoles that really do need to be unplugged when not in use. We're a bit too fond of using the electric ovens; considering an air-fryer.
> 
> But what I really need to do is sell the teenaged children.



It's not stuff trickling away electric if the bill is 3000. But games consoles when on and with a TV on will be a big thing. 
We bought our air fryer a few months back and it's about 1/5 the cost of running the oven. 
Only thing is that our model has now increased by £70 and has gone out of stock so you might need to shop around.


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## lazybloke (15 Oct 2022)

cougie uk said:


> It's not stuff trickling away electric if the bill is 3000. But games consoles when on and with a TV on will be a big thing.
> We bought our air fryer a few months back and it's about 1/5 the cost of running the oven.
> Only thing is that our model has now increased by £70 and has gone out of stock so you might need to shop around.


If you look at your overnight energy usage you might be surprised how much of your bill is from the _small stuff trickling away._
Surprised, or shocked - hence in the last 11 months I've got a new A-rated fridge and freezer, and I've identified several items that need to be unplugged at night.

I still need to do more investigation - at this very moment, there's about 0.9 amps flowing that I can't account for.


----------



## cougie uk (15 Oct 2022)

lazybloke said:


> If you look at your overnight energy usage you might be surprised how much of your bill is from the _small stuff trickling away._
> Surprised, or shocked - hence in the last 11 months I've got a new A-rated fridge and freezer, and I've identified several items that need to be unplugged at night.
> 
> I still need to do more investigation - at this very moment, there's about 0.9 amps flowing that I can't account for.



Isn't that about 10% of the usage though ? What's the 90% ?


----------



## Scaleyback (15 Oct 2022)

It's all the _" small stuff trickling away "_ added together that together constitute a big/bigger lump (stating the bl***ing obvious) Like the phone on charge and the electric toothbrush on charge to the fridge and freezer to the odd light left on etc etc. We are all so dependent on electricity to 'fuel' our everyday lives its use is insidious.


----------



## cougie uk (15 Oct 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> It's all the _" small stuff trickling away "_ added together that together constitute a big/bigger lump (stating the bl***ing obvious) Like the phone on charge and the electric toothbrush on charge to the fridge and freezer to the odd light left on etc etc. We are all so dependent on electricity to 'fuel' our everyday lives its use is insidious.



It's really not your phone left on charge. That's going to be under a quid each year. Now fridge freezer could be a huge drain - especially if it's one of those old American style units that's awfully inefficient. 

It's not going to be your toothbrush charger either. Just measured mine at less than 1w. Even if it was charging 24/7 365 days a year that's less than £3. And I bet once it's full it stops taking any measurable current. 

By comparison you might have an old lightbulb that's pulling 60 or 100 times more the electric.


----------



## Scaleyback (15 Oct 2022)

cougie uk said:


> It's really not your phone left on charge. That's going to be under a quid each year. Now fridge freezer could be a huge drain - especially if it's one of those old American style units that's awfully inefficient.
> 
> It's not going to be your toothbrush charger either. Just measured mine at less than 1w. Even if it was charging 24/7 365 days a year that's less than £3. And I bet once it's full it stops taking any measurable current.
> 
> By comparison you might have an old lightbulb that's pulling 60 or 100 times more the electric.



Ok, 🙄, I was using random items trying to make the point that individually some items will not register as energy 'drains' but collectively the little things count.
.


----------



## presta (15 Oct 2022)

presta said:


> Shell say that they'll deduct the £66 from your Direct Debit, but they haven't, they've just added it to the credit on my account and the DD hasn't changed:
> View attachment 664435
> 
> 
> ...








I don't know why the first month should be any different to the rest.


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## youngoldbloke (15 Oct 2022)

presta said:


> View attachment 664625
> 
> I don't know why the first month should be any different to the rest.



I think I'm fairly literate, but that email doesn't make very much sense to me.


----------



## cougie uk (15 Oct 2022)

youngoldbloke said:


> I think I'm fairly literate, but that email doesn't make very much sense to me.



It's two payments of £66 and four payments after that of £67 to make up the total of £400.


----------



## presta (15 Oct 2022)

Buck said:


> As a slight aside, damp in a house is not a product of temperature directly.
> 
> It is humidity combined with temperature variation between two zones.
> 
> ...


Ventilation is expensive unless you use a heat exchanger.

My shower curtains get black with mould. I can prevent most of it if I throw the windows wide open, but that puts the heating bill through the roof. I used to have an extractor fan, but it ran from 7am to midnight every day and never made any difference, so I didn't bother replacing it when it kicked the bucket.


gbb said:


> Dehumidifiers are often mentioned...do they actually draw the moisture from clothing ? Or is air movement better ?


They remove moisture from the air, and the water will evaporate from the clothes faster when the air's drier.


lazybloke said:


> I still need to do more investigation - at this very moment, there's about 0.9 amps flowing that I can't account for.


Put like that it doesn't seem a lot, but assuming it's all real power that's 1892kWh PA, which is 87% of my total electricity consumption.


----------



## lazybloke (15 Oct 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Isn't that about 10% of the usage though ? What's the 90% ?


It's the base load.
Based on readings last night it settled at an average of about 1.4 amps, but that's a fairly significant improvement on the situation I had with some old appliances, so I'm encouraged but not relaxing yet because my target is 0.5 amps. 

Time to measure power at individual devices.


----------



## jowwy (15 Oct 2022)

lazybloke said:


> It's the base load.
> Based on readings last night it settled at an average of about 1.4 amps, but that's a fairly significant improvement on the situation I had with some old appliances, so I'm encouraged but not relaxing yet because my target is 0.5 amps.
> 
> Time to measure power at individual devices.



How many watts or WH???Not sure anyone measured in amps and would know how much that is tbh


----------



## midlife (15 Oct 2022)

British Gas says that if I mirror last years use then this year's electric bill will be £3329. Plus the heating oil which is another £3000 or so.... 

Cutting down like most people, but just trying to work out how much the septic tank / sewage treatment costs. Tricel nuvo 12 seems to run at 100 watts

The tariff I'm on is about 36p KWH, is that about £315 a year or have I got my maths wrong?


----------



## presta (15 Oct 2022)

lazybloke said:


> It's the base load.
> Based on readings last night it settled at an average of about 1.4 amps, but that's a fairly significant improvement on the situation I had with some old appliances, so I'm encouraged but not relaxing yet because my target is 0.5 amps.
> 
> Time to measure power at individual devices.


What are you measuring, and what with?
You need a power meter really, if you measure current you're just getting yourself into a whole load of additional complication and errors with reactive and/or non-linear loads.


midlife said:


> The tariff I'm on is about 36p KWH, is that about £315 a year or have I got my maths wrong?


That's correct, assuming that your 100W is continuous, 24/7.


----------



## Buck (15 Oct 2022)

midlife said:


> British Gas says that if I mirror last years use then this year's electric bill will be £3329. Plus the heating oil which is another £3000 or so....
> 
> Cutting down like most people, but just trying to work out how much the septic tank / sewage treatment costs. Tricel nuvo 12 seems to run at 100 watts
> 
> The tariff I'm on is about 36p KWH, is that about £315 a year or have I got my maths wrong?



That’s what I work it out at 0.1kWh x 24 x 365 “ £315.36


----------



## midlife (15 Oct 2022)

presta said:


> What are you measuring, and what with?
> You need a power meter really, if you measure current you're just getting yourself into a whole load of additional complication and errors with reactive and/or non-linear loads.
> 
> That's correct, assuming that your 100W is continuous, 24/7.





Buck said:


> That’s what I work it out at 0.1kWh x 24 x 365 “ £315.36



Thanks, Best ask the neighbours who use it as well to contribute.....


----------



## Chromatic (15 Oct 2022)

jowwy said:


> How many watts or WH???Not sure anyone measured in amps and would know how much that is tbh



Watts = Volts x Amps


----------



## jowwy (16 Oct 2022)

Chromatic said:


> Watts = Volts x Amps



Show me where he states volts in his post???


----------



## midlife (16 Oct 2022)

jowwy said:


> Show me where he states volts in his post???



Presumably 240 volts domestic supply?


----------



## mjr (16 Oct 2022)

midlife said:


> Presumably 240 volts domestic supply?


But a presumption and if it turns out to be three phase, it all needs recalculating, so I can understand a volunteer not wanting to waste time trying to help someone being confusing, even if unintentional. 

One problem with the energy crisis is that many chickens of insulting and sidelining basic school science and maths, allowing a culture to develop where it's often seen as cool to call basic tasks difficult or to fail at them, are now coming home to roost. This is not a political point: Successive governments of all colours have failed to teach this country the skills to manage energy economy and there's little sign those not in power would have.


----------



## midlife (16 Oct 2022)

mjr said:


> But a presumption and if it turns out to be three phase, it all needs recalculating, so I can understand a volunteer not wanting to waste time trying to help someone being confusing, even if unintentional.
> 
> One problem with the energy crisis is that many chickens of insulting and sidelining basic school science and maths, allowing a culture to develop where it's often seen as cool to call basic tasks difficult or to fail at them, are now coming home to roost. This is not a political point: Successive governments of all colours have failed to teach this country the skills to manage energy economy and there's little sign those not in power would have.



I was always taught that if you hear the sound of approaching hooves then it's likely a horse and not a zebra.


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## Phaeton (16 Oct 2022)

midlife said:


> I was always taught that if you hear the sound of approaching hooves then it's likely a horse and not a zebra.



Zebras don't wear metals shoes so you wouldn't hear them coming


----------



## ChrisKz (16 Oct 2022)

I'm on £133 a month . Only me and 3 cats . Thats gas and elecric .... I was paying that when the PIP got screwed up and was paying off the debt .. so no change for me ( Just Debt clear now for 4 months) So don't have to change my habits/lifestyle


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## classic33 (16 Oct 2022)

mjr said:


> But a presumption and if it turns out to be three phase, it all needs recalculating, so I can understand a volunteer not wanting to waste time trying to help someone being confusing, even if unintentional.
> 
> One problem with the energy crisis is that many chickens of insulting and sidelining basic school science and maths, allowing a culture to develop where it's often seen as cool to call basic tasks difficult or to fail at them, are now coming home to roost. This is not a political point: Successive governments of all colours have failed to teach this country the skills to manage energy economy and there's little sign those not in power would have.


How many houses with three phase electrics though. And three phase game consoles, and other appliances that can be unplugged?

https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/energy-bill-increases.278128/post-6833259


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## lazybloke (16 Oct 2022)

presta said:


> What are you measuring, and what with?


Smart plugs to measure individual appliances. There's a companion phone app to read spot power measurements, and cumulative unit count. Have no idea of their accuracy.




presta said:


> You need a power meter really, if you measure current you're just getting yourself into a whole load of additional complication and errors with reactive and/or non-linear loads.


Yep - I added a 'power meter' on my incoming supply, but it only measures current in a meter tail, and then does a VA calculation to estimate power. I periodically update the configuration with a voltage reading (251 at the mo) and the unit cost, and it tells me power usage, unit count, cost per hour and cumulative cost.

Getting a proper smart meter in a couple of weeks, so am not bothered about the accuracy of the existing kit. "Indicative" is good enough, I hope.

I did think that kite-marked appliances had to play nicely (within certain bounds) to compensate for reactive components. In which case VA is very close to actual power.


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## DaveReading (16 Oct 2022)

lazybloke said:


> Smart plugs to measure individual appliances. There's a companion phone app to read spot power measurements, and cumulative unit count. Have no idea of their accuracy.


Just invested in a set of those. Didn't come with an app, so just use a browser to display instantaneous and daily consumption.


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## cougie uk (16 Oct 2022)

I just use my smart meter.


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## DaveReading (17 Oct 2022)

cougie uk said:


> I just use my smart meter.


Does a smart meter tell how much power individual appliances are using ?

Genuine question, as I don't have one, nor any plans to change that.


----------



## Alex321 (17 Oct 2022)

DaveReading said:


> Does a smart meter tell how much power individual appliances are using ?
> 
> Genuine question, as I don't have one, nor any plans to change that.



No.

It just tells you the total current power, incoming or outgoing (obviously the latter only if you have generation capacity). The device in your house is linked by WiFi toi the meter in the meter box, and that has no access to internal load data.


----------



## midlife (17 Oct 2022)

Unplug something and see how much the smart meter drops, I guess that’s the power it’s using ?


----------



## fossyant (17 Oct 2022)

A couple of Smart plugs are the easiest way to monitor what an appliance is using, or set of appliances - e.g. home office/printer plugged into one extension.

TP Link Tapo for example for a smart plug with energy monitoring (check you pick the right one, about £10).


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## DaveReading (17 Oct 2022)

fossyant said:


> A couple of Smart plugs are the easiest way to monitor what an appliance is using, or set of appliances - e.g. home office/printer plugged into one extension.
> 
> TP Link Tapo for example for a smart plug with energy monitoring (check you pick the right one, about £10).


Here's an example of what I get from mine:







I'm still in the process of moving them around between appliances to see where the bad boys are.


----------



## cougie uk (17 Oct 2022)

DaveReading said:


> Does a smart meter tell how much power individual appliances are using ?
> 
> Genuine question, as I don't have one, nor any plans to change that.



Just turn off the item and turn it back on again. Or have it on and then turn it off. The meter can be unplugged and walked around the house checking things. Simple.


----------



## fossyant (17 Oct 2022)

Most 'modern stuff' is pretty good on power down. My wife's home office 'setup' uses about 7w on standby... now that's laptop and hub chargers (2), two monitors, printer, the internet router (which is ON not standby) and two power transformers for led lights. Not bad. Things you do need to watch are old appliances like DVD/Video HD Recorders, and, wait for it, Playstations/Xbox's - they have a fast 'on' mode which uses quite a lot of power.


----------



## vickster (17 Oct 2022)

fossyant said:


> Most 'modern stuff' is pretty good on power down. My wife's home office 'setup' uses about 7w on standby... now that's laptop and hub chargers (2), two monitors, printer, the internet router (which is ON not standby) and two power transformers for led lights. Not bad. Things you do need to watch are old appliances like DVD/Video HD Recorders, and, wait for it, Playstations/Xbox's - they have a fast 'on' mode which uses quite a lot of power.



Good 4K TVs use a chunk of power too when wanting UHD material (as the brightness cranks up)


----------



## lazybloke (17 Oct 2022)

DaveReading said:


> Here's an example of what I get from mine:
> 
> View attachment 664934
> 
> ...


Well that contradicts my expectation of power factor being close to 1. Especially that laptop.

@presta might have more thoughts on the matter but i understand that power in AC circuits is volts x amps x power factor.

One of my meters has no visibility of PF so would overestimate power usage.


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## jowwy (17 Oct 2022)

Looks like more energy increases down the pipeline………its not going to be easy going forward for people to keep cutting their usage. Maybe its time to use some of your savings plans to put renewable energy on your roofs


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## cougie uk (17 Oct 2022)

jowwy said:


> Looks like more energy increases down the pipeline………its not going to be easy going forward for people to keep cutting their usage. Maybe its time to use some of your savings plans to put renewable energy on your roofs



At least we can get through the colder darker months.


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## jowwy (17 Oct 2022)

cougie uk said:


> At least we can get through the colder darker months.



very true, but there maybe colder darker months ahead…..


----------



## DaveReading (17 Oct 2022)

In an effort to be able to determine total instantaneous domestic electric consumption, based on my elderly, non-smart meter, I arrived at the following formula:

kW = 18 divided by (no of seconds for the disc thingy to do a complete rotation)

In other exciting developments :
a two smartplugs moved to dishwasher and Freesat receiver circuits (latter showing approx 22W when operating and next to nothing in standby).
b worked out how to get my backup PC to power on/off only when actually backing up, instead of just leaving it running 24/7.


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## lazybloke (17 Oct 2022)

DaveReading said:


> In an effort to be able to determine total instantaneous domestic electric consumption, based on my elderly, non-smart meter, I arrived at the following formula:
> 
> kW = 18 divided by (no of seconds for the disc thingy to do a complete rotation)
> 
> ...



HDMi cables can send useful instructions from TVs to connected appliances. Its called CEC.

Good news: when i switch off my TV, CEC tells my freesat box to switch off too, so energy usage drops right off.

Bad news: the freesat box has two power modes: active and passive. The former means the box effectively ignores cec commands and stays on 24x7; nicely responsive but wastes lots of power. The latter enables power savings but the box takes circa 45 seconds to switch on. Surprisingly annoying!

Set-top boxes shouldn't use much energy, but I definitely don't want it on 24x7. Thankfully there's an adjustable auto shutdown that can be combined with active mode. Will have to measure unit consumption to get the best settings...


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## cougie uk (17 Oct 2022)

lazybloke said:


> HDMi cables can send useful instructions from TVs to connected appliances. Its called CEC.
> 
> Good news: when i switch off my TV, CEC tells my freesat box to switch off too, so energy usage drops right off.
> 
> ...



I measured my virgin box on standby and it was low. Worth it for the recording of programs.


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## lazybloke (17 Oct 2022)

cougie uk said:


> I measured my virgin box on standby and it was low. Worth it for the recording of programs.



Just checked the manual - mine is supposed to use only 9 watts when in use - and 1 otherwise. I had an idea it was far higher, so will be doing some power meter measurements once I've finished assessing my freezers.


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## DaveReading (17 Oct 2022)

lazybloke said:


> Just checked the manual - mine is supposed to use only 9 watts when in use - and 1 otherwise. I had an idea it was far higher, so will be doing some power meter measurements once I've finished assessing my freezers.


I had to explain to my wife that it uses additional power when tuned to, or recording, certain channels including Drama, Dave and Yesterday.


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## Phaeton (18 Oct 2022)

I logged onto the Octopus website today & it realised I was accessing via a Laptop, it told that it was more than 80% & that I should consider turning the charger off for a while, this got me thinking & I don't know the answer. Does a laptop use more electricity if you keep it fully charged as you use it, or should you let it drain to 30% (arbitrary number) then let it charge back up again, rinse & repeat?


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## jowwy (18 Oct 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I logged onto the Octopus website today & it realised I was accessing via a Laptop, it told that it was more than 80% & that I should consider turning the charger off for a while, this got me thinking & I don't know the answer. Does a laptop use more electricity if you keep it fully charged as you use it, or should you let it drain to 30% (arbitrary number) then let it charge back up again, rinse & repeat?



Never had that when ive logged in via my laptop….but mine is always 100% charged.


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## fossyant (18 Oct 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I logged onto the Octopus website today & it realised I was accessing via a Laptop, it told that it was more than 80% & that I should consider turning the charger off for a while, this got me thinking & I don't know the answer. Does a laptop use more electricity if you keep it fully charged as you use it, or should you let it drain to 30% (arbitrary number) then let it charge back up again, rinse & repeat?



If it's charged, the charger will step the power down until it needs to top it up again. There is probably very little difference in running it down, then charging in overall use vs always plugged in. That said, running it down and charging is probably better for the laptop battery long term as that's how they are supposed to be used. Less so if it's a works laptop.


----------



## Alex321 (18 Oct 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I logged onto the Octopus website today & it realised I was accessing via a Laptop, it told that it was more than 80% & that I should consider turning the charger off for a while, this got me thinking & I don't know the answer. Does a laptop use more electricity if you keep it fully charged as you use it, or should you let it drain to 30% (arbitrary number) then let it charge back up again, rinse & repeat?



Some laptops will normally only charge to a % (my Macbook is 80%), unless you override that when you know you need it full because you are going to be away from the mains for a fair while.

But they will adjust the current being taken accordingly. I know my laptop uses much less power than the desktop does.


----------



## fossyant (18 Oct 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Some laptops will normally only charge to a % (my Macbook is 80%), unless you override that when you know you need it full because you are going to be away from the mains for a fair while.
> 
> But they will adjust the current being taken accordingly. I know my laptop uses much less power than the desktop does.



Laptop, two screens and a docking station, about 45w. Desktop computer 200w plus, 500w if a gaming machine !


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## cougie uk (18 Oct 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I logged onto the Octopus website today & it realised I was accessing via a Laptop, it told that it was more than 80% & that I should consider turning the charger off for a while, this got me thinking & I don't know the answer. Does a laptop use more electricity if you keep it fully charged as you use it, or should you let it drain to 30% (arbitrary number) then let it charge back up again, rinse & repeat



Better for the battery health if you only charge to 80%. 

I'd not be worrying about energy use though. It's going to be less than an old school lightbulb.


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## Jody (18 Oct 2022)

cougie uk said:


> I'd not be worrying about energy use though. It's going to be less than an old school lightbulb.



Sounds crazy when you put it that way


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## cougie uk (18 Oct 2022)

Jody said:


> Sounds crazy when you put it that way



I think about 65w when charging and that takes a couple of hours - and gives you multiple times that usage. 

Meanwhile that bulb outside that's on from dusk til dawn could be 100w...


----------



## fossyant (18 Oct 2022)

Gone are the days when you'd have a 500w spotlight in the garden  - Ours are about 10w or 20w maximum now !!


----------



## Grant Fondo (18 Oct 2022)

I kept seeing Aramco advertising in F1 and the cricket but had no idea what it was?
The anwer is a Saudi oil and gas company, in fact, the worlds most profitable company, no less! Revenue has doubled in the past year, profits of £250 billion. Surprise surprise.


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## jowwy (18 Oct 2022)

Just found out the broadband box uses 20w an hour, just to send a bloody internet signal around the house….thats 480wh of electric, so around 18p a day. Sheesh


----------



## presta (18 Oct 2022)

jowwy said:


> Just found out the broadband box uses *20w an hour*


You still haven't understood the difference between power and energy.

the broadband box uses 20w........correct.
the broadband box uses 72kJ an hour..........correct.
the broadband box uses 20wh an hour..........correct, but a bit perverse.
the broadband box uses 20w an hour..........meaningless.



jowwy said:


> thats 480wh of electric, so around 18p a day.


About the same as mine:









classic33 said:


> How many houses with three phase electrics though


Virtually none, and those that do will still have 240V ring mains, because nobody makes 415V domestic appliances.


mjr said:


> One problem with the energy crisis is that many chickens of insulting and sidelining basic school science and maths, allowing a culture to develop where it's often seen as cool to call basic tasks difficult or to fail at them, are now coming home to roost. This is not a political point


It's more cultural than political, it's been the height of fashion to see engineers and scientists as geeks and nerds.


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## jowwy (18 Oct 2022)

presta said:


> You still haven't understood the difference between power and energy.
> 
> the broadband box uses 20w........correct.
> the broadband box uses 72kJ an hour..........correct.
> ...



Again being padantic…..lets put it this way it doenst use a full kwh of electric…….so lets say its 0.48kw/h

hows that for the pedantics.


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## mjr (18 Oct 2022)

jowwy said:


> Again being padantic…..lets put it this way it doenst use a full kwh of electric…….so lets say its 0.48kw/h
> 
> hows that for the pedantics.



Bloody irritating, I expect, as you misspelt the first "pedantic".


----------



## Alex321 (18 Oct 2022)

jowwy said:


> Again being padantic…..lets put it this way it doenst use a full kwh of electric…….so lets say its 0.48kw/h
> 
> hows that for the pedantics.



Pedantically, just as wrong as before.

If it draws 0.48kW of power, then it in an hour it uses 0.48kWh, not 0.48kW/h. 

And if it is using 20W, that is 0.02kWh in an hour. I.e. It takes 50 hours to use 1kWh (which is one unit in electricity costs).


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## youngoldbloke (18 Oct 2022)

- anyway, 'they' are 'pedants', not 'pedantics'


----------



## jowwy (18 Oct 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Pedantically, just as wrong as before.
> 
> If it draws 0.48kW of power, then it in an hour it uses 0.48kWh, not 0.48kW/h.
> 
> And if it is using 20W, that is 0.02kWh in an hour. I.e. It takes 50 hours to use 1kWh (which is one unit in electricity costs).



So again i was correct….but people want to make some big issue over the wording.


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## cougie uk (18 Oct 2022)

jowwy said:


> Just found out the broadband box uses 20w an hour, just to send a bloody internet signal around the house….thats 480wh of electric, so around 18p a day. Sheesh



Bargain.


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## jowwy (18 Oct 2022)

mjr said:


> Bloody irritating, I expect, as you misspelt the first "pedantic".



Bloody spell check was switched off for the first one…..oh shucks


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## fossyant (18 Oct 2022)

Getting bored of this....


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## DaveReading (18 Oct 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Better for the battery health if you only charge to 80%.
> 
> I'd not be worrying about energy use though. It's going to be less than an old school lightbulb.


Yes, more of a battery life issue than a question of energy use.

The app I use to monitor charging on my phone reckons charge to 80% and don't let it discharge to less than 30%.


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## fossyant (18 Oct 2022)

jowwy said:


> Just found out the broadband box uses 20w an hour, just to send a bloody internet signal around the house….thats 480wh of electric, so around 18p a day. Sheesh



20w consumption is a fair bit more than my box - The 'office' plugs are all into one extension and it's using about 8w, when the laptop, monitors etc are on standby, but the 't-internet' box is ON. That said the 3 x mesh discs probably use enough to take it over 20w overall.


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## jowwy (18 Oct 2022)

fossyant said:


> 20w consumption is a fair bit more than my box - The 'office' plugs are all into one extension and it's using about 8w, when the laptop, monitors etc are on standby, but the 't-internet' box is ON. That said the 3 x mesh discs probably use enough to take it over 20w overall.



Yeh it does seem a lot for such a small item…….


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## Scaleyback (18 Oct 2022)

DaveReading said:


> Yes, more of a battery life issue than a question of energy use.
> 
> The app I use to monitor charging on my phone reckons charge to 80% and don't let it discharge to less than 30%.



That is pretty sage advice to obtain max battery life for any appliance or even Elelectric vehicle using a modern lithium battery. Of course you can charge to 100% but this 'stresses' the battery cells and if you do so best to start using the battery. As for discharging ? I don't think you can discharge to 0 (zero) any decent battery will have built-in protection to stop this happening. Leave long enough in a discharged state and you will probably kill the battery.


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## Alex321 (18 Oct 2022)

jowwy said:


> So again i was correct….but people want to make some big issue over the wording.



You were not correct.

The wording you use shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the difference between electrical power and electrical energy.


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## jowwy (18 Oct 2022)

Alex321 said:


> You were not correct.
> 
> The wording you use shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the difference between electrical power and electrical energy.



What it actually shows, is you knew what i meant and so did the rest and rather just say “i know what he means and nothing needs to be said” you chose to pedantic about it and make a post trying to put me right. But no worries…..i know what i meant and thats all that matters to me.


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## DaveReading (18 Oct 2022)

I weigh 185 kilograms.

Well OK, it's actually 185 pounds - but there's absolutely no need for people to make some big issue over the wording. They know what I meant.


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## Phaeton (18 Oct 2022)

You can tell it's half term the children are staying up late


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## slowmotion (18 Oct 2022)

Phaeton said:


> You can tell it's half term the children are staying up late



Doing their physics homework.


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## SpokeyDokey (19 Oct 2022)

Strange thread this - here we are discussing the minuate of domestic power consumption but no mention of the new Chancellor's bombshell dropped on Monday re the energy support package now ending in April.

Without getting overtly political - it's a ******g disgraceful about turn.


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## fossyant (19 Oct 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Strange thread this - here we are discussing the minuate of domestic power consumption but no mention of the new Chancellor's bombshell dropped on Monday re the energy support package now ending in April.
> 
> Without getting overtly political - it's a ******g disgraceful about turn.



I suppose it's likely to tip into Politics, but it's a massive U-turn. The price cap won't apply, so the unit cost will rocket. I can understand the £400 stopping as spring/summer reduces consumption, but these prices need controlling, especially given the 'profits' these companies are making.


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## jowwy (19 Oct 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Strange thread this - here we are discussing the minuate of domestic power consumption but no mention of the new Chancellor's bombshell dropped on Monday re the energy support package now ending in April.
> 
> Without getting overtly political - it's a ******g disgraceful about turn.



totally agree its a total ball bag of a reversal


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## Tom... (19 Oct 2022)

Not to mention the next day gas spot price of 40p and forward price of 180p is materially lower than the 300p/therm price cap


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## mjr (19 Oct 2022)

Tom... said:


> Not to mention the next day gas spot price of 40p and forward price of 180p is materially lower than the 300p/therm price cap



Oh no. Please don't introduce therms into the confusion of units here!


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## Tom... (19 Oct 2022)

mjr said:


> Oh no. Please don't introduce therms into the confusion of units here!



Sorry!


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## Phaeton (19 Oct 2022)

It does seem to be a strange way to do it, allow the energy companies to make profits & then effectively supplementing those profits by tax payers money, but at the same time making them pay tax's. I'm happy to put my hand up & say I don't understand the logic


----------



## mjr (19 Oct 2022)

Phaeton said:


> It does seem to be a strange way to do it, allow the energy companies to make profits & then effectively supplementing those profits by tax payers money, but at the same time making them pay tax's. I'm happy to put my hand up & say I don't understand the logic



I think that may be explained by part of the reason (not exactly logic) being "we must invent our own approach". To say more will require a move to NACA.


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## cougie uk (19 Oct 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Strange thread this - here we are discussing the minuate of domestic power consumption but no mention of the new Chancellor's bombshell dropped on Monday re the energy support package now ending in April.
> 
> Without getting overtly political - it's a ******g disgraceful about turn.



I thought he'd said it would be rethought? Not dropped entirely. 

It does seem crazy that people with no money worries get the cash as well.

But hey - April might be two prime minister's away. Who knows


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## fossyant (19 Oct 2022)

cougie uk said:


> I thought he'd said it would be rethought? Not dropped entirely.
> 
> It does seem crazy that people with no money worries get the cash as well.
> 
> But hey - April might be two prime minister's away. Who knows



Only two PM's...


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## SpokeyDokey (19 Oct 2022)

cougie uk said:


> I thought he'd said it would be rethought? Not dropped entirely.
> 
> It does seem crazy that people with no money worries get the cash as well.
> 
> But hey - April might be two prime minister's away. Who knows



The two year commitment was truncated to April and thereafter a review panel is to be set up to determine the way forward vis-a-vis managing energy supply costs.


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## jowwy (19 Oct 2022)

im hoping they will sort it out, so that people like octopus who supply green energy, can stop being charged for gas produced electric and can pass those savings onto customers.....but i cant see that happening


----------



## presta (19 Oct 2022)

lazybloke said:


> Well that contradicts my expectation of power factor being close to 1. Especially that laptop.
> 
> @presta might have more thoughts on the matter but i understand that power in AC circuits is volts x amps x power factor.
> 
> One of my meters has no visibility of PF so would overestimate power usage.



Power factor is True power/Apparent Power.

If you have a linear network, and a sinusiodal source, the current will also be a sinusoid, and the true power will be the product of rms voltage and current (apparent power), and the cosine of the phase angle, φ, (which is the power factor):

P = VIcosφ

However, if your load is _non-linear_ it gets a bit more complicated than that.

A prime candidate for a non-linear load is the rectifier on the input to a power supply such as that found in any electronic equipment, so let's look at that as an example:







In the top plot of the top window, the green waveform is the sinusoidal supply voltage, and the blue waveform is the current, and as you can see, this is anything but a sinewave. The reason for this is that when the PSU output is smoothed, so the rectifier only conducts whilst the input voltage exceeds the voltage stored on the smoothing capacitor, and the current waveform is a large amplitude spike of short duration.

The red wave below is the instantaneous product of the voltage and current, showing how the power varies throughout the cycle, and _it's the mean of this waveform that's the true power_. This is always the case for _any _circuit, mean true power over an interval T1 to T2 is the mean of the instantaneous product of voltage and current:





Note that the trace math box above gives the value for the integral too, which is the energy, power being energy divided by time.

The problem is that you can't measure and multiply voltage & current thousands of times a second with a multimeter, so you need an instrument that will do it for you: a power meter. Concepts like RMS values and power factor are shortcuts devised to avoid the need for this, _but only in the very specific circumstances for which they're applicable_. The difference is between the average of a product and the product of two averages.

In the case of the rectifier above, your voltmeter is measuring the voltage over the whole cycle, but the majority of that is not generating power because the current is zero. If you look at the trace math boxes to the right of the plot, you will see that the true power is ~123W, but the product of rms voltage and rms current is 226W, a +84% error.

The bottom window shows what happens with a moving coil multimeter instead of one that reads true rms. The blue trace shows rectified current (because moving coil meters contain a rectifier themselves and respond to the mean of the rectified current), and the scale is then calibrated to read 1.11 times the mean because the rms value of a sinusoid is 1.11 times the rectified mean. The math box shows a mean current of ~395mA, so multiplying this by 1.11 to get what your meter would be indicating, and then by the voltage, you now get 105W, a -14% error.

These errors aren't fixed, or generalisable, because they depend on the size of the smoothing capacitor. The larger the capacitor the closer the current spike gets to the peak voltage, the shorter the duration, and the higher the peak amplitude.


----------



## classic33 (19 Oct 2022)

jowwy said:


> im hoping they will sort it out, so that people like octopus who supply green energy, can stop being charged for gas produced electric and can pass those savings onto customers.....but i cant see that happening


They supply gas and electric.


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## Pat "5mph" (19 Oct 2022)

classic33 said:


> They supply gas and electric.


Gas produced electrics for obvious reasons cost a lot more than wind (for example) generated electrics.
Octopus only supplies green generated electricity - well that's what they say, I haven't verified


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## classic33 (19 Oct 2022)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Gas produced electrics for obvious reasons cost a lot more than wind (for example) generated electrics.
> Octopus only supplies green generated electricity - well that's what they say, I haven't verified


Gas was said to be not green, but they don't supply "green gas". Which sort of eats into their "totally green energy supplier" claim.

There's posts been deleted/removed since I posted that through.


----------



## Pat "5mph" (19 Oct 2022)

classic33 said:


> Gas was said to be not green, but they don't supply "green gas". Which sort of eats into their "totally green energy supplier" claim.
> 
> There's posts been deleted/removed since I posted that through.


Oh, I get what you mean now.
Yes, you have a point.
The only post I have deleted was someone's  snarky answer to you


----------



## Alex321 (19 Oct 2022)

classic33 said:


> Gas was said to be not green, but they don't supply "green gas". Which sort of eats into their "totally green energy supplier" claim.
> 
> There's posts been deleted/removed since I posted that through.



They supply what they describe as "Carbon Neutral" gas - by offsetting via Renewable World.

And they also claim "*Our mission is to get rid of gas for good*, by transforming the system into a 100% green, all-electric one. But while we work on that, we've got a way you can reduce your carbon footprint by offsetting the emissions from the gas you use at home."

I haven't actually seen any claim by them that they are currently a "totally green energy supplier" though, only that they are working towards that.


----------



## classic33 (19 Oct 2022)

jowwy said:


> Maybe people should find out why the price of electricty is so high……and what we use to produce electricity. Now if the rumours are true, that high price in electricty is due to the high prices in the supply of gas. Gas is used to create electricity…….*but octopus only purchase green electricity*, but is forced to charge for electric based on gas prices. If it was allowed to charge for electricity based on its greener purchases it would be able to charge less for its electric….
> 
> and if we are going to delete posts for sarcasm, as mine was earlier…..this forum is going to suffer from a lot of deleted posts.


There is no "green grid", according to Octopus Energy. "Their electric" comes down the same wires as everyone else's, through the same grid everyone else has to use.


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## FishFright (19 Oct 2022)

classic33 said:


> There is no "green grid", according to Octopus Energy. "Their electric" comes down the same wires as everyone else's, through the same grid everyone else has to use.



Think of the Grid as a road network and it makes sense.


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## lazybloke (19 Oct 2022)

presta said:


> Power factor is True power/Apparent Power.
> 
> If you have a linear network, and a sinusiodal source, the current will also be a sinusoid, and the true power will be the product of rms voltage and current (apparent power), and the cosine of the phase angle, φ, (which is the power factor):
> 
> ...



Thank you. V detailed.
Considering I'm an electrical/electronic engineer by degree I'm strangely more comfortable with the maths than the rest!
It's not a qualification I've ever used.

I'm left wondering how accurate power meters are. I know how traditional electricity meters work, but not cheap plug-in power meters.


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## jowwy (21 Oct 2022)

In home display Units

Maybe all those that say their In home Displays have never worked, on BBC1 RIP OFF Britain at 9:15am. They are going to show you how to fix your IHDU without the need for an engineer.

just an FYI


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## si_c (21 Oct 2022)

jowwy said:


> In home display Units
> 
> Maybe all those that say their In home Displays have never worked, on BBC1 RIP OFF Britain at 9:15am. They are going to show you how to fix your IHDU without the need for an engineer.
> 
> just an FYI



Don't have an IHDU, got a smart meter in the house which was installed when we bought it, previous ocupant fscked off with the display though. Rang EDF and they said it was gonna be £50. Not gonna save any money using the display so fscked that right off.


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## cougie uk (21 Oct 2022)

si_c said:


> Don't have an IHDU, got a smart meter in the house which was installed when we bought it, previous ocupant fscked off with the display though. Rang EDF and they said it was gonna be £50. Not gonna save any money using the display so fscked that right off.



I find my display really useful to see what's using the electricity. I guess you'd need to be on the ball to save that £50 back though.


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## Alex321 (21 Oct 2022)

cougie uk said:


> I find my display really useful to see what's using the electricity. I guess you'd need to be on the ball to save that £50 back though.



The display for ours doesn't show any more than what the current usage is. And I can get that just as well from the SolarEdge app, on my phone, tablet or PC.


----------



## cougie uk (21 Oct 2022)

Alex321 said:


> The display for ours doesn't show any more than what the current usage is. And I can get that just as well from the SolarEdge app, on my phone, tablet or PC.



Fair enough then. I don't have the solaredge kit as I don't yet have solar.


----------



## fossyant (21 Oct 2022)

Be glad when MrsF is virus free as we've both WFH this week - me just in case I caught it (I haven't). Certainly heating has been on and electricity. Even needed the fan heater for 10 minutes to warm the conservatory. Roll on going back to work (PS commute costs for me are negligible being on the bike).


----------



## Alex321 (21 Oct 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Fair enough then. I don't have the solaredge kit as I don't yet have solar.



Yes, until we got that, ours was quite useful as an indicator of how much we were using, but when it was showing unexpectedly high numbers, I had to go round turning things off to work out what it was - though usually when there were high numbers it was obvious and expected.


----------



## cougie uk (21 Oct 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Yes, until we got that, ours was quite useful as an indicator of how much we were using, but when it was showing unexpectedly high numbers, I had to go round turning things off to work out what it was - though usually when there were high numbers it was obvious and expected.



The number of times I've found myself to be the culprit is ridiculous.

Why's that so high I say as I make toast about three feet away from the Meter....


----------



## Milkfloat (21 Oct 2022)

jowwy said:


> In home display Units
> 
> Maybe all those that say their In home Displays have never worked, on BBC1 RIP OFF Britain at 9:15am. They are going to show you how to fix your IHDU without the need for an engineer.
> 
> just an FYI



Did anyone watch this? Over 3 energy companies and countless rate change mine has never been correct despite having the correct company information.


----------



## jowwy (21 Oct 2022)

Milkfloat said:


> Did anyone watch this? Over 3 energy companies and countless rate change mine has never been correct despite having the correct company information.



i didnt - but you can get it on catch up if you want to see it


----------



## si_c (21 Oct 2022)

fossyant said:


> Be glad when MrsF is virus free as we've both WFH this week - me just in case I caught it (I haven't). Certainly heating has been on and electricity. Even needed the fan heater for 10 minutes to warm the conservatory. Roll on going back to work (PS commute costs for me are negligible being on the bike).



I work from home full time now, and Electricity is generally a bit lower during the week than the weekend, the laptop and monitors don't use that much power.

Heating hasn't been on during the day so far, we'll see how it goes during the colder winter months, last year I was running an electric radiator in the office but the new house is much warmer and even if I do have to run it it's a smaller room. Just been downstairs and the thermostat in the hall is set at 18° but shows it's 19° and that's the coldest part of the house, last night at 1am it was 17°.

For sure at the moment the cost of working from home is less than the cost of going to the office, even though I commute by bike. Just by virtue of the added cost of getting coffee/breakfast/lunch/snacks out most days.


----------



## Milkfloat (21 Oct 2022)

jowwy said:


> i didnt - but you can get it on catch up if you want to see it



I flipped though it and the closet it got was to some of the apps which I have not actually found that useful.


----------



## jowwy (25 Oct 2022)

Anybody had issues with octopus not adding their referral to their accounts ??


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## Alex321 (25 Oct 2022)

jowwy said:


> Anybody had issues with octopus not adding their referral to their accounts ??



Your referral is still showing as "switch in progress" on my account, but it is showing.


----------



## jowwy (25 Oct 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Your referral is still showing as "switch in progress" on my account, but it is showing.



strange, cause we switched on 29th September


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## Alex321 (25 Oct 2022)

jowwy said:


> strange, cause we switched on 29th September



I think there is a period during which you can change your mind, and I suspect it will only show fully once that period is complete. But I'm not sure of that. 27th September is shown as "join date" against that referral.


----------



## jowwy (25 Oct 2022)

Alex321 said:


> I think there is a period during which you can change your mind, and I suspect it will only show fully once that period is complete. But I'm not sure of that. 27th September is shown as "join date" against that referral.



yeh i started the process on the 27th, but it was officially switched on the 29th....i was told it would be added to my account on the 16th October


----------



## vickster (25 Oct 2022)

Send them a message and ask


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## jowwy (25 Oct 2022)

vickster said:


> Send them a message and ask



im awaiting on the phone now


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## jowwy (25 Oct 2022)

Alex321 said:


> I think there is a period during which you can change your mind, and I suspect it will only show fully once that period is complete. But I'm not sure of that. 27th September is shown as "join date" against that referral.



referral will be completed once they have sent my first bill....whenever that will be lol


----------



## SpokeyDokey (26 Oct 2022)

Scroll down this link to see how 'day ahead' gas prices are back to last year's level. 

No idea why the media are not all over this. 

https://www.catalyst-commercial.co.uk/wholesale-gas-prices/


----------



## Phaeton (26 Oct 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Scroll down this link to see how 'day ahead' gas prices are back to last year's level.
> 
> No idea why the media are not all over this.
> 
> https://www.catalyst-commercial.co.uk/wholesale-gas-prices/



Because it's not shock & horror, they are just pathetic beasts


----------



## SpokeyDokey (26 Oct 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Because it's not shock & horror, they are just pathetic beasts



Was a bit of a rhetorical question really - the media seem to want to drag our great nation down at every opportunity. 

Also IMF is forecasting our GDP to be stronger than the mighty German economy next year. No shouting about that either. Oh no - we'd rather talk about a minor no harm done email transgression. 

Best stop there #politics


----------



## kipster (26 Oct 2022)

Oil prices back to prices from Feb this year, Gas down. 

I came back from France recently and paid €1.51 which works out at about £1.31 a litre of unleaded. Still £1.71 at garages near me.


----------



## Jody (26 Oct 2022)

It'll come back down when the companies have clawed back their lost profits.


----------



## vickster (26 Oct 2022)

kipster said:


> Oil prices back to prices from Feb this year, Gas down.
> 
> I came back from France recently and paid €1.51 which works out at about £1.31 a litre of unleaded. Still £1.71 at garages near me.


What’s the % duty/vat/tax whatever on fuel in France?


----------



## kipster (26 Oct 2022)

vickster said:


> What’s the % duty/vat/tax whatever on fuel in France?



I think there is a government rebate on the litre price of circa €0.30 at the moment.


----------



## vickster (26 Oct 2022)

kipster said:


> I think there is a government rebate on the litre price of circa €0.30 at the moment.



What is it usually out of interest?


----------



## vickster (26 Oct 2022)

Jody said:


> It'll come back down when the companies have clawed back their lost profits.



And the poor sheiks have run out of football clubs to buy


----------



## kipster (26 Oct 2022)

vickster said:


> What is it usually out of interest?



I'm only going by Google but he French govt put a rebate on fuel prices early in the year of €0.16 and increased it in September to €0.30, I think it gets reduced.or removed in November.

I didn't know any of this when I posted the price I paid and only found out when I tried to find out the tax duties, which I still haven't found...


----------



## PaulSB (27 Oct 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Scroll down this link to see how 'day ahead' gas prices are back to last year's level.
> 
> No idea why the media are not all over this.
> 
> https://www.catalyst-commercial.co.uk/wholesale-gas-prices/



I'm in the States at the moment. I've seen two lengthy news articles covering the European gas prices. Basically all European gas storage is 90%+ full and as a result gas prices are tumbling.

Our bills won't drop until the stored gas has been used.


----------



## jowwy (27 Oct 2022)

PaulSB said:


> I'm in the States at the moment. I've seen two lengthy news articles covering the European gas prices. Basically all European gas storage is 90%+ full and as a result gas prices are tumbling.
> 
> Our bills won't drop until the stored gas has been used.



its the standing charges that cheese me off more than anything, as you cant do anything to reduce them.......im only using around 2kwh of electric a day now due to the solar, but the standing charge doubles the bill for the day @47p


----------



## si_c (27 Oct 2022)

jowwy said:


> its the standing charges that cheese me off more than anything, as you cant do anything to reduce them.......im only using around 2kwh of electric a day now due to the solar, but the standing charge doubles the bill for the day @47p



In september the standing charges accounted for just under 40% of my bill.


----------



## jowwy (27 Oct 2022)

si_c said:


> In september the standing charges accounted for just under 40% of my bill.



its ridiculous isnt it


----------



## Alex321 (27 Oct 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Was a bit of a rhetorical question really - the media seem to want to drag our great nation down at every opportunity.
> 
> Also IMF is forecasting our GDP to be stronger than the mighty German economy next year. No shouting about that either. Oh no - we'd rather talk about a minor no harm done email transgression.
> 
> Best stop there #politics



It isn't really even about "wanting to drag our great nation down", it is much more generally about bad things being more newsworthy than good things.


----------



## Phaeton (27 Oct 2022)

Alex321 said:


> It isn't really even about "wanting to drag our great nation down", it is much more generally about bad things being more newsworthy than good things.



But it does have an effect on the mental health of the nation, it's like being told you are useless every day, eventually it'll start to make you question if you really are, I know that's extreme, but I've completely disengaged with the news wherever I can because there's no point in listening to it. Everybody lies, nobody gives a straight answer, they're all in it for what they can get out of it, or that's just the way it seems to me.

But I'm with @jowwy on this, my combined energy is about <£3 a day, of which 1/3 is standing charge.


----------



## gavroche (27 Oct 2022)

It heard that energy companies are making record profits at the moment so surely, it means they are charging too much so they could afford to bring prices down?


----------



## cougie uk (27 Oct 2022)

Phaeton said:


> But it does have an effect on the mental health of the nation, it's like being told you are useless every day, eventually it'll start to make you question if you really are, I know that's extreme, but I've completely disengaged with the news wherever I can because there's no point in listening to it. Everybody lies, nobody gives a straight answer, they're all in it for what they can get out of it, or that's just the way it seems to me.
> 
> But I'm with @jowwy on this, my combined energy is about <£3 a day, of which 1/3 is standing charge.



It's the nature of news.
I don't imagine any other country is different and I don't see why people think that we are such a great nation.

The misinterpretation of Great Britain has a lot to blame for the mess we find ourselves in now.


----------



## vickster (27 Oct 2022)

gavroche said:


> It heard that energy companies are making record profits at the moment so surely, it means they are charging too much so they could afford to bring prices down?



Possibly but some of that investment might be being used to research/implement alternative (greener) energy sources which can only be a good thing. No one else is going to do so


----------



## Phaeton (27 Oct 2022)

vickster said:


> Possibly but some of that investment might be being used to research/implement alternative (greener) energy sources which can only be a good thing. No one else is going to do so


The difference between an optimist & a cynic, I think they are just lining their pockets.


----------



## vickster (27 Oct 2022)

Phaeton said:


> The difference between an optimist & a cynic, I think they are just lining their pockets.



I am sure you can look it all up in their annual reports.

I'm much happier in myself when being a half glass full (or indeed a bit more) optimist


----------



## jowwy (27 Oct 2022)

Phaeton said:


> But I'm with @jowwy on this, my combined energy is about <£3 a day, of which 1/3 is standing charge.


Yeh its so annoying, we are trying to be less reliant on the grid, lower costs and outgoings and they just slap it on the standard charge instead.

My hope is that i sell enough back to the grid during the longer spring/summer/autumn months to cover the evening/night usage and cover the standing charges.....but time will tell if that happens with just the 3.2kw i can fit on the roof


----------



## SpokeyDokey (27 Oct 2022)

Alex321 said:


> It isn't really even about "wanting to drag our great nation down", it is much more generally about bad things being more newsworthy than good things.



I agree - although it, sadly, has the same effect.


----------



## SpokeyDokey (27 Oct 2022)

cougie uk said:


> It's the nature of news.
> I don't imagine any other country is different and I don't see why people think that we are such a great nation.
> 
> The misinterpretation of Great Britain has a lot to blame for the mess we find ourselves in now.



Great Nation - one for another thread really. 

FWIW, & without getting political, I do think that GB is a great nation and a great place to live, albeit not without problems - although I do think Utopia is unachievable.


----------



## mjr (27 Oct 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Scroll down this link to see how 'day ahead' gas prices are back to last year's level.
> 
> No idea why the media are not all over this.
> 
> https://www.catalyst-commercial.co.uk/wholesale-gas-prices/


What media are you watching? It's been widely reported for days. Even the BBC showed the graph as part of an explanation of the delay in the next mini budget.


----------



## SpokeyDokey (27 Oct 2022)

mjr said:


> What media are you watching? It's been widely reported for days. Even the BBC showed the graph as part of an explanation of the delay in the next mini budget.



BBC, Sky & Reuters - no big headlines. 

Maybe too much other big news going on?


----------



## mjr (27 Oct 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> BBC, Sky & Reuters - no big headlines.
> 
> Maybe too much other big news going on?


As I said, BBC have covered it in other stories. I can't find it on their website but that's a mess.

But it's definitely here:
Reuters: https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/european-gas-prices-why-have-they-been-falling-2022-10-26/
ITV: https://www.itv.com/news/2022-10-27...zero-wont-affect-energy-bills-expert-says?amp
Telegraph: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/oth...as-fears-of-winter-shortages-ease/ar-AA13643l
and many more.


----------



## SpokeyDokey (27 Oct 2022)

mjr said:


> As I said, BBC have covered it in other stories. I can't find it on their website but that's a mess.
> 
> But it's definitely here:
> Reuters: https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/european-gas-prices-why-have-they-been-falling-2022-10-26/
> ...



I know it's out there - I found it on the BBC, Reuters and Sky; but my point was it is big news but hasn't really had anything like top billing imo.


----------



## fossyant (27 Oct 2022)

Shell profits doing very well


----------



## SpokeyDokey (27 Oct 2022)

fossyant said:


> Shell profits doing very well



Sadly, mostly outside of UK juristiction.


----------



## mjr (28 Oct 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> I know it's out there - I found it on the BBC, Reuters and Sky; but my point was it is big news but hasn't really had anything like top billing imo.


Well, no, because it doesn't affect retail prices yet, so it should just be a fact box or footnote, shouldn't it?


----------



## mjr (28 Oct 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Sadly, mostly outside of UK juristiction.


Multinationals, transfer pricing and UK taxpayers funding decommissioning strike again. I think BP still pays some UK tax, but Shell and Exxon don't. Who else?


----------



## SpokeyDokey (28 Oct 2022)

mjr said:


> Multinationals, transfer pricing and UK taxpayers funding decommissioning strike again. I think BP still pays some UK tax, but Shell and Exxon don't. Who else?



No idea tbh. 

My comment was in relation to Shell - which we seem to agree on.


----------



## mjr (28 Oct 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> No idea tbh.
> 
> My comment was in relation to Shell - which we seem to agree on.


Agree, with the possible exception of "sadly" if it suggests this is misfortune, because this didn't happen by chance. The UK gov only pays Shell so much for decommissioning since a 2015 policy change, for similar reasons given for no windfall/superprofits/solidarity taxes now.


----------



## Chislenko (28 Oct 2022)

So, further to my post some time back I have today received an email from Scottish Power saying they have sent the October £66.00 Government Support to my bank account.

Why not just leave it sitting on your energy account as I feel sure that some people will spend it on other things.

As an aside though, I wonder when Scottish Power received this money from the government, as they have transferred it to me on the last working day of October which means it won't hit my bank until November.

If you take £66.00 and multiply it by the hundreds of thousands of customers they have, if the government sent them this money let's say early October that is a tidy sum they have been sitting on.

I may be being cynical, they may have only just received it from the government, but I doubt it.


----------



## SpokeyDokey (28 Oct 2022)

Chislenko said:


> So, further to my post some time back I have today received an email from Scottish Power saying they have sent the October £66.00 Government Support to my bank account.
> 
> Why not just leave it sitting on your energy account as I feel sure that some people will spend it on other things.
> 
> ...



That's odd - we use Scottish Power and the support money has been credited to our account.


----------



## Chislenko (28 Oct 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> That's odd - we use Scottish Power and the support money has been credited to our account.



Which to me is the sensible way to do it to deter people from spending it on other things.

Here is the start of the email.




"We're pleased to confirm that we've sent your Energy Bills Support Scheme discount of £66.00 as a refund to your bank today. Please allow a few working days for this credit to be shown in your bank account."


----------



## jowwy (31 Oct 2022)

My first Bill with octopus and its all wrong......trying to put it right, but they say its all ok. Last thing i want down the line is a huge gas bill due to their error.

This is for gas not electric


----------



## fossyant (31 Oct 2022)

jowwy said:


> My first Bill with octopus and its all wrong......trying to put it right, but they say its all ok. Last thing i want down the line is a huge gas bill due to their error.
> 
> This is for gas not electric



Just watch your use - I double check mine with a spreadsheet.

How's folk's 'energy use' going ?

I'm fairly happy we've cut electricity to 12 KW a day - still a lot to many but 4 adults and gaming PC's in use. That's £140 in the month at the new rates. Gas is, of course going up with use, but it's still OK - £68 this month at the new rates. Would have been less than £40 at the old rate 

Still overpaying by about £130 based on this last month and SP still saying I'm not paying enough. I'll be over £650 in credit as of this week. I'm excluding the £66 off as that is paid back into the bank.


----------



## kipster (31 Oct 2022)

I use the Hugo app to keep an eye on my usage and cross ref with Octopus bills. It uses the same Smart meter data that Octopus get.

I've just got some smart plugs with monitoring so slowing trying to find out what's using the most electric. It'll take a while and I suspect the biggest culprit for overnight usage is my son!

The solar has kept my electricity usage down and I've only been using gas for hot water. I haven't changed my DD since i've had solar, as i wanted to see all the data before working out what it should be. 

This has meant I've built up a credit with Octopus, currently £800 and waiting for the solar export to get credited. My DD is £200 (£134 + government £66).

Since the solar was installed I feel I've become a little (or lot) blase with electric usage, this will have to change as I go through the winter and a lack of solar production and much more import.


----------



## vickster (31 Oct 2022)

fossyant said:


> Just watch your use - I double check mine with a spreadsheet.
> 
> How's folk's 'energy use' going ?
> 
> ...



Octopus Supergreen tariff ... 1-28 Oct, used £42.86 worth of electricity (146kWh) and £22.22 gas (287kWh, heating still hasn't been on, so that's water and hob). My account is £124.70 and with the Govt contribution, monthly payment is £24.72 

Think I went to the office once maybe twice in Oct?, so wah 5 days a week


----------



## jowwy (31 Oct 2022)

vickster said:


> Octopus Supergreen tariff ... 1-28 Oct, used £42.86 worth of electricity (141kWh) and £22.22 gas (276kWh, heating still hasn't been on, so that's water and hob). My account is £124.70 and with the Govt contribution, monthly payment is £24.72
> 
> Think I went to the office once maybe twice in Oct?, so wah 5 days a week



Thats pretty good tariffs for elec and gas........


----------



## jowwy (31 Oct 2022)

My energy use is way down now due to solar being installed and the heating settings dropped to 19.5* .

But octopus got the gas calculations wrong and if i didn't tell them, i could have had a massive bill in the future, which i wanted to avoid. Its all sorted now and with paying a variable direct debit and having a huge amount in credit. I shouldn't have to pay another electric or gas bill this winter with the £66 coming from the government each month until march.


----------



## vickster (31 Oct 2022)

jowwy said:


> Thats pretty good tariffs for elec and gas........



Yep I fixed about a year ago (pay a little more to have an all renewable tariff), year to go


----------



## DaveReading (1 Nov 2022)

kipster said:


> I've just got some smart plugs with monitoring so slowing trying to find out what's using the most electric. It'll take a while and I suspect the biggest culprit for overnight usage is my son!


If it's any help, smartplugs typically have functionality whereby they can be switched on/off via your home network.


----------



## si_c (1 Nov 2022)

DaveReading said:


> If it's any help, smartplugs typically have functionality whereby they can be switched on/off via your home network.



Smart sockets might be a better choice... smart plugs can just be well, unplugged.


----------



## DaveReading (1 Nov 2022)

si_c said:


> Smart sockets might be a better choice... smart plugs can just be well, unplugged.


Well, yes. 

But by the same token, you can tell when a bolshie teenager has done so ...


----------



## jowwy (3 Nov 2022)

the 2nd of the governments £66 energy payment has gone onto my octopus account today......with my current balance standing at £426, im not expecting to pay a bill this winter with the further 4 payments from the gov.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (3 Nov 2022)

jowwy said:


> the 2nd of the governments £66 energy payment has gone onto my octopus account today......with my current balance standing at £426, im not expecting to pay a bill this winter with the further 4 payments from the gov.



Withdraw it, and put it in an account paying interest.


----------



## jowwy (3 Nov 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Withdraw it, and put it in an account paying interest.



i already put the equivalent monthly bill into a savings account and some paying off my mortgage, so im happy for it to stay there and covering the bills.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (3 Nov 2022)

jowwy said:


> i already put the equivalent monthly bill into a savings account and some paying off my mortgage, so im happy for it to stay there and covering the bills.



But that balance is going to cover a years worth of your bills. Why keep it there?


----------



## jowwy (3 Nov 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> But that balance is going to cover a years worth of your bills. Why keep it there?



Peace of mind....i do get what your saying Ming. Once i start selling the excess solar back to the grid, then i will re-evaluate


----------



## Phaeton (3 Nov 2022)

kipster said:


> I use the Hugo app to keep an eye on my usage and cross ref with Octopus bills. It uses the same Smart meter data that Octopus get.


This looks really good from a quick scan I've done of it.


----------



## kipster (3 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> This looks really good from a quick scan I've done of it.



There is another one called Loop as well


----------



## Ming the Merciless (3 Nov 2022)

My monthly bill for month just gone for both electric and gas was slightly less than the energy support amount. But our heating has only kicked in briefly yesterday , so I expect this months to be more as temps drop. I’ve set the direct debit to the minimum they allow. We are quite frugal with energy use.


----------



## Chislenko (3 Nov 2022)

jowwy said:


> the 2nd of the governments £66 energy payment has gone onto my octopus account today......with my current balance standing at £426, im not expecting to pay a bill this winter with the further 4 payments from the gov.



To be fair when I have been in a large overpayment situation previously the energy company has automatically credited a large part of the balance back to my bank account.

Maybe some energy companies do and some don't.


----------



## Jody (3 Nov 2022)

Updated our meter readings yesterday and we're still using about 60% of previous years.

Currently around 2 months worth in credit


----------



## Chislenko (3 Nov 2022)

Jody said:


> Updated our meter readings yesterday and we're still using about 60% of previous years.
> 
> Currently around 2 months worth in credit



Is that a conscious decision to cut back / be more careful or just that severe cold hasn't really hit yet.

I know we are underpaying so are in for a shock eventually. Based on previous years our payments would be correct, but previously we have "wintered" in Europe with the house shut up for three months, but we won't be doing that this year so will use a lot more than previous years.


----------



## Jody (3 Nov 2022)

Chislenko said:


> Is that a conscious decision to cut back / be more careful or just that severe cold hasn't really hit yet.



Pointing out to my partner how much the kitchen floor heater uses made a big dent. Apart from that it's just being more conscious of what we use.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (3 Nov 2022)

Jody said:


> Pointing out to my partner how much the kitchen floor heater uses made a big dent. Apart from that it's just being more conscious of what we use.



Kitchen floor heater? How posh are you!


----------



## Jody (3 Nov 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Kitchen floor heater? How posh are you!



Not posh enough to be able to afford the electric for it


----------



## Phaeton (3 Nov 2022)

Jody said:


> Not posh enough to be able to afford the electric for it



Bit like owning a Ferrari or a Porsche, many people can afford buying one, but being able to afford the fuel & maintenance costs as another matter


----------



## Jody (3 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Bit like owning a Ferrari or a Porsche, many people can afford buying one, but being able to afford the fuel & maintenance costs as another matter



It was a joke. We can afford the £20-30 a month it was burning but are trying to be a little more conscious of what we use.


----------



## Phaeton (3 Nov 2022)

Jody said:


> It was a joke. We can afford the £20-30 a month it was burning but are trying to be a little more conscious of what we use.



So was my response,  but in truth some of these things are installed & the running costs are not taken into account, not sure anyone expected a 100% increase in costs


----------



## Scaleyback (3 Nov 2022)

jowwy said:


> i already put the equivalent monthly bill into a savings account and some paying off my mortgage, so im happy for it to stay there and covering the bills.



Mortgage ! last time I had one of them was 25 years ago .. . 
mind I am 105.


----------



## Phaeton (3 Nov 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> Mortgage ! last time I had one of them was 25 years ago .. .
> mind I am 105.



Nar then youngster


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## Phaeton (3 Nov 2022)

kipster said:


> There is another one called Loop as well


I've changed my mind, it hasn't pulled any electricity data since 19th October, wonder if it's just not pulled it all in yet, although the gas is up to date, or there's an issue with the meter, why don't Octopus give you access to this information,


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## mjr (3 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I've changed my mind, it hasn't pulled any electricity data since 19th October, wonder if it's just not pulled it all in yet, although the gas is up to date, or there's an issue with the meter, why don't Octopus give you access to this information,


What information? You can get some data and graphs in the consumption screen of "My Account" on the Octopus website and a pretty full lot of data is available through their website API. It's not as good as being allowed to connect your own In-Home Display, as I understand some countries require, but it's nearly as good as can be under the customer-hostile UK system.


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## Phaeton (3 Nov 2022)

mjr said:


> What information? You can get some data and graphs in the consumption screen of "My Account" on the Octopus website and a pretty full lot of data is available through their website API. It's not as good as being allowed to connect your own In-Home Display, as I understand some countries require, but it's nearly as good as can be under the customer-hostile UK system.


Just come back to say I've found where you can download your daily usage which is what I was looking for, but i have to say I don't feel the Octopus website is very user friendly, I ended up having to use Google to find the tariff's


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## Ming the Merciless (3 Nov 2022)

jowwy said:


> Looks like we have stalled at 6.6kwh……..just 0.2 shy of our current best day. Which isnt bad based on the weather since we have had them fitted.


Energy bill increases?


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## jowwy (3 Nov 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Energy bill increases?



I posted in the wrong thread…..i did put it in the right one afterwards, i will delete the post


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## cyberknight (3 Nov 2022)

elderly mum is all electric has been told its £200 a month just fer her


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## Chislenko (3 Nov 2022)

cyberknight said:


> elderly mum is all electric has been told its £200 a month just fer her



That seems, even with the price rises, expensive, does she have a big house?


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## Ming the Merciless (3 Nov 2022)

Chislenko said:


> That seems, even with the price rises, expensive, does she have a big house?



I would guess she has heating on most of the time


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## Phaeton (3 Nov 2022)

Didn't seem unreasonable for all electric heating for an elderly person, they usually have the heating high as they are not very active. £200 a month is only £7 a day, 21kWh's, a few 3kW heaters will gobble that up


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## cyberknight (4 Nov 2022)

she has electric heaters that have bricks in to heat the house and yes she isn't very active


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## Phaeton (4 Nov 2022)

cyberknight said:


> she has electric heaters that have bricks in to heat the house and yes she isn't very active


Sister just moved out of a rented bungalow, BIL suffers from Parkinsons & not very mobile, there was storage radiators in there, the estimates for this winter were over £500 a month, one of the reasons they moved.


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## cyberknight (4 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Sister just moved out of a rented bungalow, BIL suffers from Parkinsons & not very mobile, there was storage radiators in there, the estimates for this winter were over £500 a month, one of the reasons they moved.



thats it storage heaters , its early yet


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## fossyant (4 Nov 2022)

Chislenko said:


> Is that a conscious decision to cut back / be more careful or just that severe cold hasn't really hit yet.
> 
> I know we are underpaying so are in for a shock eventually. Based on previous years our payments would be correct, but previously we have "wintered" in Europe with the house shut up for three months, but we won't be doing that this year so will use a lot more than previous years.



Make sure you are taking regular readings and log it on a spreadsheet and ensure the energy company know. Gas is nearly 3x more expensive, and leccy nearly double. We've slashed use and monitor every couple of weeks and send a meter reading in monthly. Were overpaying by £150 a month as SP wont let us adjust. Over £600 in credit.


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## jowwy (4 Nov 2022)

fossyant said:


> Make sure you are taking regular readings and log it on a spreadsheet and ensure the energy company know. Gas is nearly 3x more expensive, and leccy nearly double. We've slashed use and monitor every couple of weeks and send a meter reading in monthly. Were overpaying by £150 a month as SP wont let us adjust. Over £600 in credit.



its crazy how the prices have gone up. My new smart meter now has gas prices on it......ive used 9kwh of gas this morning, which is 90p, plus the 26p standing charge for the day at the current rate, last year that was 28p plus 10p standing charge. its ridiculous and some people are going to struggle badly this winter


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## Phaeton (4 Nov 2022)

We didn't put the heating on last night, it got to 9pm & we were both starting to get cold, but we made the conscious decision to put an extra layer on rather than the heating as it seemed daft for only an hour or so.


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## fossyant (4 Nov 2022)

We are using the heating - the gas is now running at £60 a month - or £3 (edit £2) a day, electric £140, but it's on for a couple of hours in the morning, and the same early evening.

Our first frost this morning - it was nippy. Had to use the fan heater for a few minutes in the conservatory. We've "inherited" one of those over priced Dyson bladeless fans, but at least I can set to 16c and it oscillates so soon has the conservatory workable in with a thick jumper.

I was on a Teams call and one of my colleagues was sat in her home 'office' with a woolly hat, scarf and a thick set of jumpers.

Madness this price situation.


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## Phaeton (4 Nov 2022)

fossyant said:


> We are using the heating - the gas is now running at £60 a month - or £3 a day, electric £140, but it's on for a couple of hours in the morning, and the same early evening.
> 
> Our first frost this morning - it was nippy. Had to use the fan heater for a few minutes in the conservatory. We've "inherited" one of those over priced Dyson bladeless fans, but at least I can set to 16c and it oscillates so soon has the conservatory workable in with a thick jumper.
> 
> ...



Do you only have 20 days in your month? £3 a day for 30 days is £90?

I'm still WFH outside, in a covered area with only 2 walls, but I suspect it'll be my last day, it is only 2 degrees C this morning


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## fossyant (4 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Do you only have 20 days in your month? £3 a day for 30 days is £90?
> 
> I'm still WFH outside, in a covered area with only 2 walls, but I suspect it'll be my last day, it is only 2 degrees C this morning



Whoops, £2....  which equates to Jowwy's 90p for the morning - Soon goes.


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## cougie uk (4 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Do you only have 20 days in your month? £3 a day for 30 days is £90?
> 
> I'm still WFH outside, in a covered area with only 2 walls, but I suspect it'll be my last day, it is only 2 degrees C this morning



What is your W ? Surely not desk based ?


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## Chislenko (4 Nov 2022)

To be honest if I lived on my own I would move out into the garage! Warmest place in the house. Last year I boarded all the ceiling, had an electric door fitted, eliminating drafts, it's right snug in here even with no heater!


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## Phaeton (4 Nov 2022)

cougie uk said:


> What is your W ? Surely not desk based ?



Yes I am a key pusher, work in International Telecom's routing calls via the Internet rather than the PSTN


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## cougie uk (4 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Yes I am a key pusher, work in International Telecom's routing calls via the Internet rather than the PSTN



Blimey. You're like those posties in shorts in mid December snow. Hardy.


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## Phaeton (4 Nov 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Blimey. You're like those posties in shorts in mid December snow. Hardy.


That's my son, well not postie although he tried that, he delivers medical equipment & is always in shorts, we went to a wedding a few weeks back & he was complaining that it felt weird with trousers on.


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## presta (4 Nov 2022)

There was a bit on Radio 4 this morning about a trial scheme this winter paying people with smart meters a rebate to switch off appliances during peak hours. It would be interesting to see what specific criteria they're going to use, if they set a fixed power threshold, people with low consumption might get the payment without switching off whilst high users don't get the payment even if they do switch off. I think having a threshold dependent on some form of average past use might get a bit complicated for some to follow.

They were talking about £100 total over the whole winter, so it's not exactly a big hole in a £2.5k bill.


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## jowwy (4 Nov 2022)

presta said:


> There was a bit on Radio 4 this morning about a trial scheme this winter paying people with smart meters a rebate to switch off appliances during peak hours. It would be interesting to see what specific criteria they're going to use, if they set a fixed power threshold, people with low consumption might get the payment without switching off whilst high users don't get the payment even if they do switch off. I think having a threshold dependent on some form of average past use might get a bit complicated for some to follow.
> 
> They were talking about £100 total over the whole winter, so it's not exactly a big hole in a £2.5k bill.



Its not over the whole winter though…..its just 12 sessions durring the winter of an hour, within a 3hr window


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## Phaeton (4 Nov 2022)

Octopus are already trying this, although it's not started yet, maybe they got early wind of the scheme, 

I'm not sure exactly how it will work, maybe they will take your average on a Tuesday night for the last 4 weeks between 6 & 8, then set you a target for next Tuesday between 6 & 8 to reduce that by 50%.

Like all blanket schemes there will be winners, losers & those who call foul.


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## cougie uk (4 Nov 2022)

Details from Octopus on how they work out the energy savings. 

"We’ll look at your historical smart meter data leading up to a Session, and calculate what you usually use at that time of day, on average. 

If the Session is on a weekday, we’ll look at your half-hourly usage over the last 10 weekdays (excluding saving session days). If the Session is on a weekend, we’ll look at your half hourly usage over the last 4 weekend days. These half hourly averages are then subject to an ‘In Day Adjustment’ which will make adjustments based on how much energy you’ve used on the day of the session.

We then use these adjusted half-hourly averages as a benchmark – so you’ll earn points for every kilowatt hour you save during your Session."


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## Phaeton (4 Nov 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Details from Octopus on how they work out the energy savings.
> 
> "We’ll look at your historical smart meter data leading up to a Session, and calculate what you usually use at that time of day, on average.
> 
> ...


Be interesting it we have 10 poor solar days before & then a corker on the Session day


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## jowwy (4 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Be interesting it we have 10 poor solar days before & then a corker on the Session day



Thats what i was thinking…..im cooking in the house on electric for the next few weeks and will then switch to outside on gas during session days


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## Buck (4 Nov 2022)

Nice to get a saving if possible. That £100 will make a real difference for some for just a small shift in behaviours.


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## Phaeton (4 Nov 2022)

Unfortunately as a cynic of capitalism I have to wonder if this is the first introduction of time based rates, They entice people to reduce rates at peak times then when they realise people can reduce need at peak times that put the price up at those times.


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## Buck (4 Nov 2022)

In a way it makes sense. 
We’ve had Economy 7 electricity for a long time and more broadly, off peak train tickets, meal deals and drinks. 

If it means a better use of electricity with minimal inconvenience (no hardship in putting your washer on earlier or later?) then it’s difficult to argue against.


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## Phaeton (4 Nov 2022)

Buck said:


> In a way it makes sense.
> We’ve had Economy 7 electricity for a long time and more broadly, off peak train tickets, meal deals and drinks.
> 
> If it means a better use of electricity with minimal inconvenience (no hardship in putting your washer on earlier or later?) then it’s difficult to argue against.



Agreed if that's the goal, again the cynic thinks it's more about profit & saving money by not having to build more equipment, than saving the planet.


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## cougie uk (4 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Agreed if that's the goal, again the cynic thinks it's more about profit & saving money by not having to build more equipment, than saving the planet.


Probably a bit of both.


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## Buck (4 Nov 2022)

^this. 

I hope that they rebalance their profit into supporting those who are poorer and genuinely think of heat or eat each day.

Then there’s the standing charge which should be a % of each KWh used as that is a true reflection of your use of the grid. 

We have become used to “cheap” energy and if there is one glimmer of hope from all of this, it is that we have become more energy aware and recognise that other options I.e. solar are actually financially viable and good for the environment too.


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## Phaeton (4 Nov 2022)

Buck said:


> Then there’s the standing charge which should be a % of each KWh used as that is a true reflection of your use of the grid.


I equate this the VED on cars it should all be on fuel


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## Low Gear Guy (4 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Agreed if that's the goal, again the cynic thinks it's more about profit & saving money by not having to build more equipment, than saving the planet.



That comes down to the same thing. The construction of power generators and the distribution system requires the use of heavy plant equipment with a big carbon footprint.


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## cyberknight (4 Nov 2022)

FIL is unhappy , hes cut back so much hes always cold.
Told mrs ck hes welcome here all day any day as although we are in jumpers etc im not going to freeze .He does live in a big 3 bed house all on his own now since MIL died but he doesnt want to move due to memories .


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## cougie uk (4 Nov 2022)

cyberknight said:


> FIL is unhappy , hes cut back so much hes always cold.
> Told mrs ck hes welcome here all day any day as although we are in jumpers etc im not going to freeze .He does live in a big 3 bed house all on his own now since MIL died but he doesnt want to move due to memories .



Can you give his house a bit of an energy audit maybe ? 
Make sure he's got low energy lightbulbs - it's easy to waste energy for little benefit.


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## cyberknight (4 Nov 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Can you give his house a bit of an energy audit maybe ?
> Make sure he's got low energy lightbulbs - it's easy to waste energy for little benefit.



he has but all the stuff is linked via multiple alexas controlling the lights etc , his gas bill has trebled though and hes worried to turn it on


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## cougie uk (4 Nov 2022)

cyberknight said:


> he has but all the stuff is linked via multiple alexas controlling the lights etc , his gas bill has trebled though and hes worried to turn it on



Early Xmas present of a heated throw and a fleecy hoody or something? And an explanation of how much it costs to run ? 
I think a lot of people have no idea of the cost so they're avoiding using things.


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## Alex321 (4 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Unfortunately as a cynic of capitalism I have to wonder if this is the first introduction of time based rates, They entice people to reduce rates at peak times then when they realise people can reduce need at peak times that put the price up at those times.



Octopus Agile has always been time based rate - both for import and export. Linked to the half hourly wholesale prices for each day as announced the previous day.


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## DaveReading (4 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Agreed if that's the goal, again the cynic thinks it's more about profit & saving money by not having to build more equipment, than saving the planet.


If the energy companies making more profits is a consequence of saving the planet then I guess we can grit our teeth and look the other way.


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## mjr (5 Nov 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Details from Octopus on how they work out the energy savings.
> 
> "We’ll look at your historical smart meter data leading up to a Session, and calculate what you usually use at that time of day, on average.
> 
> ...


So to maximise your income, shift your usage to peak times on non-Session days and help overload the grid. 

They've not thought this through. Even ignoring the fact that it offers no reward to those already cutting their peak-time electricity use for nearly-altruistic reasons to keep doing so, the tragedy of targets and the obvious negative consequences should force changes before launch.


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## gbb (5 Nov 2022)

So pre the last price increase, we decreased our bills from iro £140 per month down to £120' down to around £110. This last months bill electric and gas combined) £180.
Wouldn't have been so bad but they did some odd electricity estimated reading so in reality its not £180...the one time you want them to do it right, when they do so every other time...pah.


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## midlife (9 Nov 2022)

This is a new one on me.

Unless I am reading it wrong the energy companies can remotely convert your smart meter into a pay-as-you go meter and up the tarrif.....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63554879


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## Alex321 (9 Nov 2022)

midlife said:


> This is a new one on me.
> 
> Unless I am reading it wrong the energy companies can remotely convert your smart meter into a pay-as-you go meter and up the tarrif.....
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63554879



They can, but if they follow the rules, only when you have a history of non-payment and other avenues have failed to resolve it.

They should never be switching people who are up to date with their payments.


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## DaveReading (9 Nov 2022)

It's OK, the regulator has written the energy companies a strong letter ...


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## Scaleyback (10 Nov 2022)

I have never had (or wanted ) a smart meter. Unnecessary if you can read your own meters and do simple arithmetic.


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## Alex321 (10 Nov 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> I have never had (or wanted ) a smart meter. Unnecessary if you can read your own meters and do simple arithmetic.



And if you are not going to be generating any of your own or want to go on timed rates.


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## chris-suffolk (10 Nov 2022)

Alex321 said:


> And if you are not going to be generating any of your own or want to go on timed rates.



Even generating my own, still no need for a smart meter.


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## Alex321 (10 Nov 2022)

chris-suffolk said:


> Even generating my own, still no need for a smart meter.



Presumably not exporting on a per unit tariff then?

I think it probably only a matter of time before they start insisting that everybody go on smart meters. It saves them a lot of money in meter reader salaries.


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## Phaeton (10 Nov 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Presumably not exporting on a per unit tariff then?
> 
> I think it probably only a matter of time before they start insisting that everybody go on smart meters. It saves them a lot of money in meter reader salaries.


Was it not a target to have everybody already changed over by now?


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## cougie uk (10 Nov 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> I have never had (or wanted ) a smart meter. Unnecessary if you can read your own meters and do simple arithmetic.



They're really handy for seeing what items are using the power. Track down any old bulbs and things.


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## MrGrumpy (10 Nov 2022)

Concur , long time hater of smart meters but it’s good now as I can see what I’m spending daily .


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## Alex321 (10 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Was it not a target to have everybody already changed over by now?



The original target was to have all homes & businesses *offered *smart meters by December 2020. That of course wasn't met, and a new target of 2024 was set.

But being offered them doesn't mean forcing everybody onto them.

The current target is to have a smart meter in every home by the end of 2025. And utility companies have binding targets for the number of smart meters they must install. But even so, customers have the right to refuse to have their meter replaced. If it has to be replaced for any other reason, or is a new install, then you no longer have a choice. Any new/replacement installations will be smart meters.


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## cougie uk (10 Nov 2022)

And once you realize there's a battery in there it makes it even easier to work out what's using the power. 
No need to remember the figure and then run upstairs and back to see what the bathroom light is costing you!


MrGrumpy said:


> Concur , long time hater of smart meters but it’s good now as I can see what I’m spending daily .


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## chris-suffolk (10 Nov 2022)

cougie uk said:


> They're really handy for seeing what items are using the power. Track down any old bulbs and things.



My solar feed to the hot water tank tells me exactly what the house is using, and then only diverts 'spare' electricity to the immersion heater. Does the job of a smart meter, without the hassle of actually getting one.


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## mjr (10 Nov 2022)

chris-suffolk said:


> My solar feed to the hot water tank tells me exactly what the house is using, and then only diverts 'spare' electricity to the immersion heater. Does the job of a smart meter, without the hassle of actually getting one.


Does one of the jobs of a smart meter. It doesn't send meter readings to your energy company so the bills aren't estimated, does it?


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## cougie uk (10 Nov 2022)

chris-suffolk said:


> My solar feed to the hot water tank tells me exactly what the house is using, and then only diverts 'spare' electricity to the immersion heater. Does the job of a smart meter, without the hassle of actually getting one.



I've not got my solar yet but I'm pretty sure the installation is a bit more hassle than getting a smart meter.


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## chris-suffolk (10 Nov 2022)

cougie uk said:


> I've not got my solar yet but I'm pretty sure the installation is a bit more hassle than getting a smart meter.



Yes, but since I have got panels, getting a smart meter would be now be more hassle



mjr said:


> Does one of the jobs of a smart meter. It doesn't send meter readings to your energy company so the bills aren't estimated, does it?



I send a reading every month, not had an estimated reading in a few years now.


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## mjr (10 Nov 2022)

chris-suffolk said:


> Yes, but since I have got panels, getting a smart meter would be now be more hassle
> 
> 
> 
> I send a reading every month, not had an estimated reading in a few years now.


And how do you get that reading? Is it automated?


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## jowwy (10 Nov 2022)

chris-suffolk said:


> Yes, but since I have got panels, getting a smart meter would be now be more hassle
> 
> 
> 
> I send a reading every month, not had an estimated reading in a few years now.



2 brand new smart meters fitted in around an hour last week, hell of a lot less hassle than the solar panel fitting 2 weeks before…….and i no longer have to manually read my meters and put them readings in online, it does it for me.


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## Phaeton (10 Nov 2022)

chris-suffolk said:


> Yes, but since I have got panels, getting a smart meter would be now be more hassle
> 
> I send a reading every month, not had an estimated reading in a few years now.


I have to say I was strongly opposed to smart meters for a long time & TBH I still think they 'could' used for the power companies benefit in preference to the customers benefit. However I would like to think that things are going to change, the current crisis with pricing is drawing attention to our lack of self sufficiency & the lower prices will be offered at off peak times rather than increased prices at peak times.

As to changing them, my panels were fitted first & as I moved to Octopus they arranged to change them both out inside 2 weeks where BG had been going to do it for 2 years. It was a totally painless & clean process, both were done in a morning, probably less than 2 hours & definitely less than 3.


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## mjr (10 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> As to changing them, my panels were fitted first & as I moved to Octopus they arranged to change them both out inside 2 weeks where BG had been going to do it for 2 years.


I was reading some forums yesterday (possibly OVO Energy's) where people wrote that BG ran their own smart meter network for SMETS1, getting off of it was a nuisance and BG have installed some SMETS2/SMETS1 "Frankenmeter" bodges which cause trouble for other companies to switch over or even to remove. I can't find it now, but https://inews.co.uk/inews-lifestyle...data-for-months-as-energy-prices-soar-1589424 mentions "many suppliers are still not installing these and continue to install the SMETS1 models, causing further issues" as of April 2022.

So I could understand any BG customer not wanting a smart meter from them!


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## kipster (10 Nov 2022)

I have an original BG smets1, fortunately Octopus managed to connect and upgrade it and it works perfectly for send readings to them and also for my solar exports


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## Phaeton (14 Nov 2022)

Does anyone know how the smart meters work & pass the data back to the servers? Do you each have a sim card or how do they communicate? I did wonder if the electric meters had their own multiplex network, very much how Broadband is delivered to the house over the copper cables, but obviously gas can't do that. Interested as both of my meters went offline on the 7th, they are investigating.

Do the meters hold the daily data? So that when/if they come back online the daily stats will be uploaded back to the server?


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## Ming the Merciless (14 Nov 2022)

chris-suffolk said:


> My solar feed to the hot water tank tells me exactly what the house is using, and then only diverts 'spare' electricity to the immersion heater. Does the job of a smart meter, without the hassle of actually getting one.



It does the gas readings as well, brilliant!


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## Ming the Merciless (14 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Does anyone know how the smart meters work & pass the data back to the servers? Do you each have a sim card or how do they communicate? I did wonder if the electric meters had their own multiplex network, very much how Broadband is delivered to the house over the copper cables, but obviously gas can't do that. Interested as both of my meters went offline on the 7th, they are investigating.
> 
> Do the meters hold the daily data? So that when/if they come back online the daily stats will be uploaded back to the server?



Electric one talks over a mobile network to supplier, the gas one talks to bigger electric one.


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## Alex321 (14 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Does anyone know how the smart meters work & pass the data back to the servers? Do you each have a sim card or how do they communicate? I did wonder if the electric meters had their own multiplex network, very much how Broadband is delivered to the house over the copper cables, but obviously gas can't do that. Interested as both of my meters went offline on the 7th, they are investigating.


https://www.smartenergygb.org/faqs/... smart meter and in,or TVs, using radio waves.



Phaeton said:


> Do the meters hold the daily data? So that when/if they come back online the daily stats will be uploaded back to the server?



I think so.


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## Buck (14 Nov 2022)

They use their own bespoke MESH network. 
I’d assume the meters hold so much data but it won’t be limitless. 
I had some aggregated data in a previous month where they could provide the totals but not by individual day.


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## oldwheels (14 Nov 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Presumably not exporting on a per unit tariff then?
> 
> I think it probably only a matter of time before they start insisting that everybody go on smart meters. It saves them a lot of money in meter reader salaries.


I do not have a smart meter but I have never seen a meter reader for quite a few years. You are expected by SSE to read your own and submit the readings. Presumably so long as you have a consistent consumption pattern they assume you are being honest. 
For a final reading if moving house then I think a photograph would be enough.


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## Phaeton (14 Nov 2022)

oldwheels said:


> I do not have a smart meter but I have never seen a meter reader for quite a few years. You are expected by SSE to read your own and submit the readings. Presumably so long as you have a consistent consumption pattern they assume you are being honest.
> For a final reading if moving house then I think a photograph would be enough.


There used to be a legal requirement that every meter had to be read every 2 years I think it was, but maybe that has been dropped now, I know it was mentioned to me when I was in dispute with NPower (I think) who hadn't read it in 6 years & I was told that couldn't happen now, but I am going back maybe 20 years.


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## oldwheels (14 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> There used to be a legal requirement that every meter had to be read every 2 years I think it was, but maybe that has been dropped now, I know it was mentioned to me when I was in dispute with NPower (I think) who hadn't read it in 6 years & I was told that couldn't happen now, but I am going back maybe 20 years.



There has been a van marked Morrison Data Services around a few times but has never been to my meter. I saw the same van and guy on the mainland last week but must be checking meters for somebody other than SSE.


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## cougie uk (14 Nov 2022)

oldwheels said:


> There has been a van marked Morrison Data Services around a few times but has never been to my meter. I saw the same van and guy on the mainland last week but must be checking meters for somebody other than SSE.



They check meters for a lot of companies.


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## Scaleyback (14 Nov 2022)

How is everyone doing with the use of their heating ?
My CH comes on at 06:30 am with thermostat set at 19 degrees. This warms the house up enough for us to get breakfast, get dressed, showered etc ( Retired folk here ) Around 9 - 9:30 I turn the stat down to 18 degrees where it usually stays until bedtime. We put an extra layer on as required. The stat mostly stays at 18 until bedtime. Up until recently the indoor temp rarely fell below 18 during the day but the last couple of days the indoor temp is falling below 18 around mid to late morning so the CH is 'kicking in' and restoring the house temp to 18 degrees so my bills will certainly rise now. We are pretty far north, near Richmond and it's mostly a couple of degrees or so colder up here than farther south. My latest dual fuel bill from Octopus 14 oct - 13 nov is £140.00 and we were away for 1 week with no gas use for that week.
The experts say a indoor temp of 18 is ' healthy' and I don't intend to reduce it any more. I'm certainly not wealthy so will have to 'pay up' 
and continue to moan about the bills.


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## Phaeton (14 Nov 2022)

Our heating is set on 24hr & we control it by the thermostat, it usually doesn't get switched on until we both sit down in an evening, when it's set to 19 degrees so only on 3-4 hours a day.

I work from home but have only just come inside up until week last Friday I was still working undercover outside, I've just put extra layers on, wife is active around the house most of the day so again doesn't really need it on, but she has a soft spot for the grandkids & as soon as they walk through the door she puts it on.


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## cougie uk (14 Nov 2022)

My heating only comes on at 18 degrees in the morning and 17.5 in the evening and then only for a few hours. 
Even with a nesh wife this is working out but we've yet to get cold weather.


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## Phaeton (14 Nov 2022)

cougie uk said:


> My heating only comes on at 18 degrees in the morning and 17.5 in the evening and then only for a few hours.
> Even with a nesh wife this is working out but we've yet to get cold weather.



Surely the outside temperature doesn't matter unless you mean having it on for a longer time


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## Ming the Merciless (14 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Surely the outside temperature doesn't matter unless you mean having it on for a longer time



The outside temp determines how quickly the house is losing heat. If it’s cold weather the temps drops and heating will click in as temp inside dropped below their 18C setting. If warm, as it is now, it’s easy to keep a house above 18C without requiring the heating to be on.


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## cougie uk (14 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Surely the outside temperature doesn't matter unless you mean having it on for a longer time



Yeah as Ming says. The house is decently insulated but I'm clearly going to be using the heating more when it's zero degrees outside than when it's a lot warmer ?


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## Scaleyback (15 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Surely the outside temperature doesn't matter unless you mean having it on for a longer time



The bigger the disparity between the outside and inside temperatures the more the building will lose heat. The better the building insulation the slower the heat loss.


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## gbb (15 Nov 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> How is everyone doing with the use of their heating ?
> My CH comes on at 06:30 am with thermostat set at 19 degrees. This warms the house up enough for us to get breakfast, get dressed, showered etc ( Retired folk here ) Around 9 - 9:30 I turn the stat down to 18 degrees where it usually stays until bedtime. We put an extra layer on as required. The stat mostly stays at 18 until bedtime. Up until recently the indoor temp rarely fell below 18 during the day but the last couple of days the indoor temp is falling below 18 around mid to late morning so the CH is 'kicking in' and restoring the house temp to 18 degrees so my bills will certainly rise now. We are pretty far north, near Richmond and it's mostly a couple of degrees or so colder up here than farther south. My latest dual fuel bill from Octopus 14 oct - 13 nov is £140.00 and we were away for 1 week with no gas use for that week.
> The experts say a indoor temp of 18 is ' healthy' and I don't intend to reduce it any more. I'm certainly not wealthy so will have to 'pay up'
> and continue to moan about the bills.



Ours is generally set to Frost setting, I've no idea what that actually is but in reality, it comes on only when we tell it. Generally, the house naturally sits at 18 at the moment, if it gets really cold, it will drop to 14. Around 16, we might give it a blast or sooner if the grandkids are here.
Well insulated house but there's no point us turning it on low too soon, we like Windows open at night, except in perhaps really windy or really cold nights.
One major change for us is yet to be seen perhaps, we just fitted a new condensing boiler and water HW tank and as its way more efficient than the old one, the boiler room and tank cupboard no longer stay warm by virtue of the boiler heat loss. That used to be nice to just let that heat out onto the landing, it did make a difference. We no longer have that of course.


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## jowwy (15 Nov 2022)

first octopus saving session is today between 5 and 6pm.....£2.25 for every unit you save, i got no chance. I used 0.250kwh between 5 and 6pm yesterday lol and only used 3.8kwh all day


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## gbb (15 Nov 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> How is everyone doing with the use of their heating ?
> My CH comes on at 06:30 am with thermostat set at 19 degrees. This warms the house up enough for us to get breakfast, get dressed, showered etc ( Retired folk here ) Around 9 - 9:30 I turn the stat down to 18 degrees where it usually stays until bedtime. We put an extra layer on as required. The stat mostly stays at 18 until bedtime. Up until recently the indoor temp rarely fell below 18 during the day but the last couple of days the indoor temp is falling below 18 around mid to late morning so the CH is 'kicking in' and restoring the house temp to 18 degrees so my bills will certainly rise now. We are pretty far north, near Richmond and it's mostly a couple of degrees or so colder up here than farther south. My latest dual fuel bill from Octopus 14 oct - 13 nov is £140.00 and we were away for 1 week with no gas use for that week.
> The experts say a indoor temp of 18 is ' healthy' and I don't intend to reduce it any more. I'm certainly not wealthy so will have to 'pay up'
> and continue to moan about the bills.



As an example...
Outside weather currently 11c, feels like 8 c, breezy and wet.
Inside temps 16c. Windows have been open all night, back door is open quite often for the dog. 
Its not warm but personally I feel no need for the heating on although my wife did just suggest it have a little burst. Windows were closed once we got up. Feels just borderline but ok.

Windows open all night, I love this time of the year for one reason, I woke maybe 2am, too hot in bed. Went to the spare room (windows already open) and climbed into a lovely cold bed, heaven.


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## kipster (15 Nov 2022)

jowwy said:


> first octopus saving session is today between 5 and 6pm.....£2.25 for every unit you save, i got no chance. I used 0.250kwh between 5 and 6pm yesterday lol and only used 3.8kwh all day



I suspect I'll save very little, if anything, but the thought of saving something has given my wife a challenge where me bleating on about cooking earlier, when the sun is out and we're on solar, has fallen on deaf ears so far.


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## gbb (15 Nov 2022)

gbb said:


> As an example...
> Outside weather currently 11c, feels like 8 c, breezy and wet.
> Inside temps 16c. Windows have been open all night, back door is open quite often for the dog.
> Its not warm but personally I feel no need for the heating on although my wife did just suggest it have a little burst. Windows were closed once we got up. Feels just borderline but ok.
> ...



And as the morning rolls on, even im beginning to realise, 16c is just about the tipping point. I've put a dressing gown over my clothes, I'm not comfortable. I'm not doing anything, thats part of the problem, its wet and murky, don't want to go out, can't be bothered to do something indoors either


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## Scaleyback (15 Nov 2022)

gbb said:


> And as the morning rolls on, even im beginning to realise, 16c is just about the tipping point. I've put a dressing gown over my clothes, I'm not comfortable. I'm not doing anything, thats part of the problem, its wet and murky, don't want to go out, can't be bothered to do something indoors either



I'm sure we could 'exist' at 16c if we had to but we don't so we cannot  I have tried running at 17c  but frankly the house is not in the least 'welcoming and friendly'  Don't know how else to describe it. So I have done all the cost calculations based on my dual fuel usage in 2020 & 2021 and 18c is my bottom limit. It's more than I want to pay ( but £2.50 for 6 eggs is 'more than i want to pay' ) but while I can afford the energy ( and the eggs) I refuse to feel miserable in a cold house. In fact, it's so wet and miserable today the stat is on 18.5c . . . that 0.5c makes all the difference. I am a recent convert to Hive heating and I have to say I appreciate the accuracy and rapid response of the thermostat.


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## cougie uk (15 Nov 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> I'm sure we could 'exist' at 16c if we had to but we don't so we cannot  I have tried running at 17c  but frankly the house is not in the least 'welcoming and friendly'  Don't know how else to describe it. So I have done all the cost calculations based on my dual fuel usage in 2020 & 2021 and 18c is my bottom limit. It's more than I want to pay ( but £2.50 for 6 eggs is 'more than i want to pay' ) but while I can afford the energy ( and the eggs) I refuse to feel miserable in a cold house. In fact, it's so wet and miserable today the stat is on 18.5c . . . that 0.5c makes all the difference. I am a recent convert to Hive heating and I have to say I appreciate the accuracy and rapid response of the thermostat.



Love my Hive. We have ours set up to Alexa so if anyone is cold they can ask Alexa to boost the heating for an hour or so. 
Currently its 17.1 in the living room and everyone is happy. Can't believe that a few years ago my wife would have hissy fits if it went below 20 or so !


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## Ming the Merciless (15 Nov 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Love my Hive. We have ours set up to Alexa so if anyone is cold they can ask Alexa to boost the heating for an hour or so.
> Currently its 17.1 in the living room and everyone is happy. Can't believe that a few years ago my wife would have hissy fits if it went below 20 or so !



Get an overlay with 20.2 printed on it, and stick over thermostat display


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## cougie uk (15 Nov 2022)

kipster said:


> I suspect I'll save very little, if anything, but the thought of saving something has given my wife a challenge where me bleating on about cooking earlier, when the sun is out and we're on solar, has fallen on deaf ears so far.



Oh yes. Starting with us now. Let's see if we can save any power - we will have a quiet hour...


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## cougie uk (15 Nov 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Get an overlay with 20.2 printed on it, and stick over thermostat display



Genius !


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## Scaleyback (15 Nov 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Love my Hive. We have ours set up to Alexa so if anyone is cold they can ask Alexa to boost the heating for an hour or so.
> Currently its 17.1 in the living room and everyone is happy. Can't believe that a few years ago my wife would have hissy fits if it went below 20 or so !



I have Alexa in various rooms but I only use it as a 'smart speaker' one day (if I live long enough) i may not want to move myself to :-
change the temp / put the lights on /off / close the curtains / until then I believe in the maxim ' keep moving '


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## Phaeton (16 Nov 2022)

Oops I've made a Booboo, I had smart meters fitted in August when the Solar went in, I notice the other day that Octopus had stopped or rather unable to get the 1/2 hourly readings from the meter. 

So being diligent (very unlike me) I took photos of each meter & entered them manually into their website, came back that we've only used £32 worth of electricity in the last month which I was overjoyed about but put it down to the amount of sun we'd had in October & early November. However looking at the smart display it claimed we'd used nearly £12 of electricity yesterday which seemed a bit strange, so thought I'd best read the meter again, but this time I realised that the display scrolls, from overall meter reading, export reading & cost, it's not easy to see it's right at the back of a cupboard (well that's my excuse)

The number I reported to them 2 days ago, 134 was actually our Export number & the Import number is 334, so it appears to the website we've used 200 units of electricity in 2 days, on the brightside it does mean we've only used 334 units since 22nd August


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## Ming the Merciless (16 Nov 2022)

I’m with Bulb taken over by Octopus 🐙. I have smart meters and you can see usage on the Bulb app. No need to use the crappy smart meter monitor. Now temp has finally dipped the heating kicks in a bit in morning and a bit in the evening.


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## Phaeton (16 Nov 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> I’m with Bulb taken over by Octopus 🐙. I have smart meters and you can see usage on the Bulb app. No need to use the crappy smart meter monitor. Now temp has finally dipped the heating kicks in a bit in morning and a bit in the evening.


Not if they are not able to collect the data from your meter(s), for some as yet unknown reason ours have gone AWOL since the 6th.


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## Ming the Merciless (16 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Not if they are not able to collect the data from your meter(s), for some as yet unknown reason ours have gone AWOL since the 6th.



Reset your meter to see if it fixes its network connection?


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## Phaeton (16 Nov 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Reset your meter to see if it fixes its network connection?


How? Sorry to clarify, not the display the meter, Google is not being helpful


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## Ming the Merciless (16 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> How? Sorry to clarify, not the display the meter, Google is not being helpful



On my smart meter there is an A and B button, you use them in combination to reset its connection. Pointed out by guy who installed it. There’s a leaflet somewhere with info on.


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## Phaeton (16 Nov 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> On my smart meter there is an A and B button, you use them in combination to reset its connection. Pointed out by guy who installed it. There’s a leaflet somewhere with info on.


Been down & had a play, there is a high level menu which you can scroll left & right using A or B, then once you see the option you want you hold B for 2 seconds, which takes you into the sub-menu, the using A & B to go left & right again & B to go into lower menu. Pressing A for 2 seconds brings you backup a level.

Under the Heading INFO there is an option to JOIN pressing it searched for a HAN which I think is their network for the meters, it then joined, so have to wait an hour or so to see it appears on their website.


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## jowwy (16 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Been down & had a play, there is a high level menu which you can scroll left & right using A or B, then once you see the option you want you hold B for 2 seconds, which takes you into the sub-menu, the using A & B to go left & right again & B to go into lower menu. Pressing A for 2 seconds brings you backup a level.
> 
> Under the Heading INFO there is an option to JOIN pressing it searched for a HAN which I think is their network for the meters, it then joined, so have to wait an hour or so to see it appears on their website.



it may not been seen on their website until tmrw.......have you rang octopus to ask for a reset on their end. That's what i did and it was up and running within a few minutes from their end


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## Phaeton (16 Nov 2022)

jowwy said:


> it may not been seen on their website until tmrw.......have you rang octopus to ask for a reset on their end. That's what i did and it was up and running within a few minutes from their end



Twitter & Email, both advise they are looking into it, but nothing so far


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## jowwy (17 Nov 2022)

Looks like the energy cap will rise to 3k in April and more targeted support for pensioners and people on low incomes. Yet the price of gas has fallen significantly in the past few months.








I attach the news report were it states the drop in gas prices for clarification.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63512583


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## Alex321 (17 Nov 2022)

jowwy said:


> Looks like the energy cap will rise to 3k in April and more targeted support for pensioners and people on low incomes.



The energy cap will never be £3K, please don't fall into the trap of describing it that way.

There is no overall cap, and almost certainly never will be. The cap is on price per unit, and the suggestion is that from April the per-unit cap will be such that the AVERAGE BILL will be £3K.

Sorry, but it really gets my goat when the media (and even the government) describe it that way, and then people just repeat it. Too many people think it means what it says, and that they can't be charged more than that overall.

And incidentally, those estimates are now several hundred pounds lower than they were a few months ago - which does somewhat reflect the reduction of wholesale prices for gas.


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## jowwy (17 Nov 2022)

Alex321 said:


> The energy cap will never be £3K, please don't fall into the trap of describing it that way.
> 
> There is no overall cap, and almost certainly never will be. The cap is on price per unit, and the suggestion is that from April the per-unit cap will be such that the AVERAGE BILL will be £3K.
> 
> ...



again, im just quoting the news alex.......im not falling into any traps


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## jowwy (17 Nov 2022)

Alex321 said:


> The energy cap will never be £3K, please don't fall into the trap of describing it that way.
> 
> There is no overall cap, and almost certainly never will be. The cap is on price per unit, and the suggestion is that from April the per-unit cap will be such that the AVERAGE BILL will be £3K.
> 
> ...



also they are still estimating a rise to 4k....but capping it at 3. .......wholesale gas is now less than what it was before the huge rises, so the price should go back down to pre-april price cap of around £1200 but its not


ps I didnt at any stage, state that this is the maximum people will pay, so please stop making look like i did.....


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## Buck (17 Nov 2022)

The news article says “ But it's unlikely prices will stay low for long enough to have much effect on bills, analysts say.”

Prices unlikely to fall!


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## Alex321 (17 Nov 2022)

jowwy said:


> also they are still estimating a rise to 4k....but capping it at 3. .......wholesale gas is now less than what it was before the huge rises, so the price should go back down to pre-april price cap of around £1200 but its not
> 
> 
> ps I didnt at any stage, state that this is the maximum people will pay, so please stop making look like i did.....



No, you didn't, and I have no idea how anything I wrote could be interpreted to suggest you did. But that is how far too many people read it when the media say the cap will be £3K or whatever amount they say.

And by just quoting what the media says, you ARE falling into that trap.

What the media says in their headlines is just WRONG. They shouldn't be allowed to do that, although they usually do then say somewhere in the full text that the cap means average bills will be that amount.

The impression from the headlines is that the cap is on the overall bill, which it isn't. But everybody else then just quotes those figures as well. And that happens to such an extent that it can actually be quite hard to find what the cap per unit really is.


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## jowwy (17 Nov 2022)

Alex321 said:


> No, you didn't, and I have no idea how anything I wrote could be interpreted to suggest you did. But that is how far too many people read it when the media say the cap will be £3K or whatever amount they say.
> 
> And by just quoting what the media says, *you ARE falling into that trap*.
> 
> ...



that is what i interpreted as you suggesting that i did


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## Phaeton (17 Nov 2022)

@jowwy @Alex321 Just to put this into context, I will be honest I only follow the news on the periphery of my life as I get so angry & anxious about it at the same time, it doesn't do my mental health any good so I try to stay clear.

But when I heard there was a price 'cap' I was very angry as this seemed like another knife in the back for the working man (sorry not PC) by setting a limit where nobody would be charged more, also what was the incentive for anybody to consider their use & try to lower it if it didn't matter once you hit the 'cap'.

It wasn't until I learnt that the 'cap' applied to the mythical average consumer, which I'm not sure still has been explained who they are, I do understand @jowwy you are only posting the very poor BBC journalism which in turn is only reporting the misleading MP's.

The 'cap' is not a 'cap' it does not 'cap' anything, if you use it you will have to pay for it, it is an estimate & as such be reported as that.

Sorry I'll get off my high horse now & go lie down for a while to calm down.


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## fossyant (17 Nov 2022)

They really need to change the terminology to a unit price cap. So about a 20% increase on current rates. Gas say another 3p, leccy 6p.


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## Alex321 (17 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> @jowwy @Alex321 J
> 
> The 'cap' is not a 'cap' it does not 'cap' anything, if you use it you will have to pay for it, it is an estimate & as such be reported as that.



It is a cap, but not a cap on your total bill, a cap on the amount per unit that can be charged on their standard variable tariff.

And it isn't even that the cap applies to the "average consumer". It is just that the average bill, given the specified unit price, will be that amount. But of course not very many people are exactly average in their usage, so some will pay less, some will pay more



fossyant said:


> They really need to change the terminology to a unit price cap. So about a 20% increase on current rates. Gas say another 3p, leccy 6p.



Yes, it really should be a requirement that it be reported that way. And the government should also be telling us the unit price cap, not giving out an annual amount that the average customer will pay under that unit price cap.


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## mjr (17 Nov 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Get an overlay with 20.2 printed on it, and stick over thermostat display


With an open system like domoticz or home assistant, you can apply an "adjustment" to the displayed value. 

Not that I would.


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## jowwy (17 Nov 2022)

Alex321 said:


> *It is a cap, but not a cap on your total bill,* a cap on the amount per unit that can be charged on their standard variable tariff.
> 
> And it isn't even that the cap applies to the "average consumer". It is just that the average bill, given the specified unit price, will be that amount. But of course not very many people are exactly average in their usage, so some will pay less, some will pay more
> 
> ...



but no one said it was a cap on your total bill.....at least i didn't.

You and i, due to solar wont pay anywhere near 3k


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## Alex321 (17 Nov 2022)

jowwy said:


> but no one said it was a cap on your total bill.....at least i didn't.
> 
> You and i, due to solar wont pay anywhere near 3k



I know you didn't. But you have fallen into the media trap of quoting the £3k amount, which MANY people will then assume is a cap on the total bill (as per Phaeton's post above).

You aren't saying it is a cap on total bill, neither are the media. But by talking about a cap and then giving (the average) total bill amount as a headline (without "the average" being stated in the headline), that is how many read it. I think it is fundamentally dishonest of the media (and the government) to state it in that fashion.

And they don't always even make it clear in the text of the article, so it hardly surprising people read it that way.
For instance:
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-households-to-pay-more-for-energy-from-april
Never uses the word "average" or mentions unit price.

Thius one is bit better, though the headline is still just as bad
https://metro.co.uk/2022/11/17/cost...energy-price-cap-to-3000-from-april-17775910/


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## jowwy (17 Nov 2022)

Alex321 said:


> I know you didn't. But you have fallen into the media trap of quoting the £3k amount,* which MANY people will then assume is a cap on the total bill* (as per Phaeton's post above).
> 
> You aren't saying it is a cap on total bill, neither are the media. But by talking about a cap and then giving (the average) total bill amount as a headline (without "the average" being stated in the headline), that is how many read it. I think it is fundamentally dishonest of the media (and the government) to state it in that fashion.
> 
> ...



and how many, of those MANY people do you think are on here??? come on alex your taking issue with something only a few people on here would even consider an issue....

Lets agree to disagree before even more people take umbrage to my posts.....


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## Alex321 (17 Nov 2022)

jowwy said:


> and how many, of those MANY people do you think are on here??? come on alex your taking issue with something only a few people on here would even consider an issue....
> 
> Lets agree to disagree before even more people take umbrage to my posts.....



I have no idea how many of those people are one here - but some certainly are, as one has posted to that effect above.

It isn't really about agreeing to disagree, I just feel we shouldn't be simply quoting media headlines which are fundamentally misleading. Even if only a few are actually mislead by it, we really shouldn't be propagating that.


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## jowwy (17 Nov 2022)

Alex321 said:


> I have no idea how many of those people are one here - but some certainly are, as one has posted to that effect above.
> 
> It isn't really about agreeing to disagree, I just feel we shouldn't be simply quoting media headlines which are fundamentally misleading. Even if only a few are actually mislead by it, we really shouldn't be propagating that.



from what i have seen and read...i think the issue around the wording is more your issue, as you stated in your first post, than any one else's

But again agre to disagree

this is what you said and no one else has said the same, but probably will now just because i have said that


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## Alex321 (17 Nov 2022)

jowwy said:


> from what i have seen and read...i think the issue around the wording is more your issue, as you stated in your first post, than any one else's
> 
> But again agre to disagree
> 
> ...



It is what @Phaeton said above that he first thought it meant.


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## potsy (17 Nov 2022)

I've heard a couple of people at work say they will be using as much energy as they want this winter with the £2500 cap in place. 
I did try to explain but I don't think they believed me


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## fossyant (17 Nov 2022)

potsy said:


> I've heard a couple of people at work say they will be using as much energy as they want this winter with the £2500 cap in place.
> I did try to explain but I don't think they believed me



Good god, they will get a hammering - they obviously can't be reading their meters often.


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## Phaeton (17 Nov 2022)

potsy said:


> I've heard a couple of people at work say they will be using as much energy as they want this winter with the £2500 cap in place.
> I did try to explain but I don't think they believed me


I suspect they are not alone, it's very bad spin


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## SpokeyDokey (17 Nov 2022)

potsy said:


> I've heard a couple of people at work say they will be using as much energy as they want this winter with the £2500 cap in place.
> I did try to explain but I don't think they believed me



We should start taxing idiocy imo .😁


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## si_c (17 Nov 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> We should start taxing idiocy imo .😁



Is this not that?


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## derrick (17 Nov 2022)

Any oldies had there winter heating allowance paid to them yet?


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## Scaleyback (17 Nov 2022)

derrick said:


> Any oldies had there winter heating allowance paid to them yet?



I think it's alphabetical ? I'm a ' R ' so at the back end of. the queue.


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## Ming the Merciless (17 Nov 2022)

fossyant said:


> Good god, they will get a hammering - they obviously can't be reading their meters often.



Yeah but a price cap of £3,000 for unlimited energy use, why wouldn’t they?


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## mjr (18 Nov 2022)

So what will the unit price be?


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## presta (18 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> the mythical average consumer, which I'm not sure still has been explained who they are


This is the most up to date data, it's been suspended since 2020 because homeworking during lockdown altered the typical usage patterns.


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## Alex321 (18 Nov 2022)

mjr said:


> So what will the unit price be?



I can't find that anywhere, but it actually varies slightly by region.

These are the current (from 1st October) rates
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...l-rates/energy-price-guarantee-regional-rates

I can't find a similar chart yet for the rates from April.

Apparently the "typical" costs given are derived by taking the median usage levels multiplied by the average unit cost cap.


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## gbb (18 Nov 2022)

Not that I care too much personally but some landlords who have included electric and gas in their rents must surely being hammered.
Just a passing thought....


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## Phaeton (18 Nov 2022)

Alex321 said:


> I can't find that anywhere, but it actually varies slightly by region.
> 
> These are the current (from 1st October) rates
> https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...l-rates/energy-price-guarantee-regional-rates
> ...



That's good to see that Pre-payment meters are now getting sensible rates instead of being stiffed, they used to be the highest.


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## MrGrumpy (19 Nov 2022)

I’m glad now that I’ve at least tried to mitigate the rising energy cost by going down the solar route . Just hope the interest free loan works out via the energy trust . Hopefully be producing something next year .


----------



## mjr (19 Nov 2022)

gbb said:


> Not that I care too much personally but some landlords who have included electric and gas in their rents must surely being hammered.
> Just a passing thought....


Tales of heating controls being put into lock boxes and high draw appliances glued onto time switches are already plentiful. I've also seen questions on how to install controls onto consumer boards (fuse boxes, to us oldies). I'm not sure all landlords deserve sympathy.


----------



## gbb (19 Nov 2022)

mjr said:


> Tales of heating controls being put into lock boxes and high draw appliances glued onto time switches are already plentiful. I've also seen questions on how to install controls onto consumer boards (fuse boxes, to us oldies). I'm not sure all landlords deserve sympathy.



I live in a very average 1960s , at the time, new development, very sprawling, quite nice in some ways, but its getting run down, landlords snap up any houses originally brought from the council, they're entry level but big and well built I have several near me, some HMO, one we knew the owner till she moved out and let it via an agent. Many of those houses have lights that never get turned off. Rear of mine is one, family let but the succession of tenants seem to sub let so you get maybe 10 people in there at a time...and the washing that gets put out on the line is relentless, were as sure as you can be they're taking in washing from their community...washing it at the landlords expense.
(We know the agent, we know its supposed to be a family let, not a HMO and we know its bills included) I dread to think how much the bills are, one consolation, they obviously haven't got a tumble dryer


----------



## Phaeton (19 Nov 2022)

Did anyone get anything back from Octopus's experiment? They have given me £0.99 credit, which is really interesting as currently both the website & the App claim they can't see our meters, so how did they know we used less?


----------



## mistyoptic (19 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Did anyone get anything back from Octopus's experiment? They have given me £0.99 credit, which is really interesting as currently both the website & the App claim they can't see our meters, so how did they know we used less?


We only got £0.48 🙁


----------



## cougie uk (19 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Did anyone get anything back from Octopus's experiment? They have given me £0.99 credit, which is really interesting as currently both the website & the App claim they can't see our meters, so how did they know we used less?



What did you switch off ? Stopped heating your Olympic sized Swimming Pool ?

We got 2p back ! No lights on, no TV - pretty much everything turned off. 

I can only guess that our usage at that time of day isn't huge anyway.


----------



## Buck (19 Nov 2022)

This was on Twitter


----------



## Phaeton (19 Nov 2022)

cougie uk said:


> What did you switch off ? Stopped heating your Olympic sized Swimming Pool ?
> 
> We got 2p back ! No lights on, no TV - pretty much everything turned off.
> 
> I can only guess that our usage at that time of day isn't huge anyway.



Zilch, Nada, we figured as they couldn't see the meters it was pointless us joining in, so I have no idea where they got their numbers from


----------



## Ming the Merciless (19 Nov 2022)

Buck said:


> This was on Twitter
> 
> View attachment 668523



Seems to be rewarding profligate users , rather than those who already keep their usage frugal.


----------



## Phaeton (19 Nov 2022)

If they have save £13.83 @ 33.7p per unit that means they saved 41 units in an hour, what did they do open the restaurant an hour later?


----------



## Ming the Merciless (19 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> If they have save £13.83 @ 33.7p per unit that means they saved 41 units in an hour, what did they do open the restaurant an hour later?



Turned the cannabis farm halogen heater / lights off for a few hours


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## jowwy (19 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> If they have save £13.83 @ 33.7p per unit that means they saved 41 units in an hour, what did they do open the restaurant an hour later?



Wasnt it something like £3 a unit they were offering???


----------



## Buck (19 Nov 2022)

I think it was in the region of £3 per KWh saved


----------



## Buck (19 Nov 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Seems to be rewarding profligate users , rather than those who already keep their usage frugal.



It’s rewarding reduced usage at peak times so yes, it’s benefiting those who do not habitually manage their energy usage well but if it incentivises better and more thoughtful usage then bring it on!


----------



## Phaeton (19 Nov 2022)

jowwy said:


> Wasnt it something like £3 a unit they were offering???





Buck said:


> I think it was in the region of £3 per KWh saved


Ah okay, so they saved just under 5kWh's presumably it was in their meal time which they pushed back, pulled forward or ordered a takeaway


----------



## mjr (19 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Ah okay, so they saved just under 5kWh's presumably it was in their meal time which they pushed back, pulled forward or ordered a takeaway


I think the £3/kWh was what octopus got and the amount for participants was a bit less, but even so, 5kWh in an hour is our heat pump running full tilt and the grill on full, for the whole hour.


----------



## fossyant (19 Nov 2022)

This lovely lamp we have on our landing. It drops down about 4 feet but its over the stairs. Came with halogens rated 20w each (times 9 ). As well as power we got heat, and a couple of bulbs kept blowing. Decided to punt up for LED replacements a year ago that are about £4 each. Now using 18w and not 180w and no heat. We've had a couple of LEDs fail in the year, which negates some of the saving.

Just bought two replacements, both failed within an hour or two. £8. Took them back and ordered a cheap set off Amazon for roughly £1:20 each. These haven't failed yet.

These modern LEDs aren't cheap, but should outlast standard bulbs. It's currently on all evening, so would have been 30p for roughly 5 hours use, now 3p.


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## Ming the Merciless (19 Nov 2022)

Buck said:


> It’s rewarding reduced usage at peak times so yes, it’s benefiting those who do not habitually manage their energy usage well but if it incentivises better and more thoughtful usage then bring it on!



I’m not sure it is, it’s just shifting demand rather than reducing it. A tiered rate that climbs exponentially with usage would more push their usage down.


----------



## Phaeton (19 Nov 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> I’m not sure it is, it’s just shifting demand rather than reducing it. A tiered rate that climbs exponentially with usage would more push their usage down.



A start has to be made somewhere


----------



## Buck (19 Nov 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> I’m not sure it is, it’s just shifting demand rather than reducing it. A tiered rate that climbs exponentially with usage would more push their usage down.


Reducing usage at peak times is a start though. The energy infrastructure is better for avoiding the current spikes in demand. 


Phaeton said:


> A start has to be made somewhere


Absolutely.


----------



## Phaeton (20 Nov 2022)

This time of year it would help me if they allowed me to charge my battery mid afternoon then I could use it through the peak period, somewhat niche I know.


----------



## midlife (20 Nov 2022)

Daughter has moved flat in the North East, now above a hairdressers. The rent has gone up with the move by £100 a month and the energy companies want to charge £300 a month for dual fuel.

Do energy companies set their DD high to start off with with new customers in case they fail to pay? As the bill falls for me to pay I wondered if we could negotiate down after a couple of months paying.


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## jowwy (20 Nov 2022)

midlife said:


> Daughter has moved flat in the North East, now above a hairdressers. The rent has gone up with the move by £100 a month and the energy companies want to charge £300 a month for dual fuel.
> 
> Do energy companies set their DD high to start off with with new customers in case they fail to pay? As the bill falls for me to pay I wondered if we could negotiate down after a couple of months paying.



Cant you switch the DD to pay on bill like i do…….so you only pay for what she uses and doesnt accrue credit for which they will receive the interest on


----------



## fossyant (20 Nov 2022)

midlife said:


> Daughter has moved flat in the North East, now above a hairdressers. The rent has gone up with the move by £100 a month and the energy companies want to charge £300 a month for dual fuel.
> 
> Do energy companies set their DD high to start off with with new customers in case they fail to pay? As the bill falls for me to pay I wondered if we could negotiate down after a couple of months paying.



That's madness for a flat. I'd be sending monthly readings and get it negotiated down. 3 bed house with 4 adults, two gaming PC's, two WFH some of the time, and we're £200 a month


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## midlife (20 Nov 2022)

fossyant said:


> That's madness for a flat. I'd be sending monthly readings and get it negotiated down. 3 bed house with 4 adults, two gaming PC's, two WFH some of the time, and we're £200 a month



Thanks, I'll do that. Her previous flats have had a pay as you go meter so never had to pay an energy company before so no history.


----------



## mjr (20 Nov 2022)

jowwy said:


> Cant you switch the DD to pay on bill like i do…….so you only pay for what she uses and doesnt accrue credit for which they will receive the interest on


Don't you pay more per unit for that?


----------



## jowwy (20 Nov 2022)

mjr said:


> Don't you pay more per unit for that?



No……


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## DCLane (20 Nov 2022)

@midlife - I'm currently paying £150 a month for a 5 bed detached house, computers and other kit running 24/7. £300 a month just for a flat seems crazy.


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## midlife (20 Nov 2022)

DCLane said:


> @midlife - I'm currently paying £150 a month for a 5 bed detached house, computers and other kit running 24/7. £300 a month just for a flat seems crazy.



Your heating / lighting / cooking / washing and everything else for a 5 bed house circa £1.5k for a year. That's good going. Way less than my 3 bed. 

Yep. Dual fuel for a flat £300 is steep......


----------



## DCLane (20 Nov 2022)

@midlife - I fixed the price for two years back in September 2021, so to date haven't been hit with the price increases others have. With the rebate I'm currently paying only £85 a month. However I do know it'll rise a bit in about ten months' time.


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## jowwy (20 Nov 2022)

DCLane said:


> @midlife - I fixed the price for two years back in September 2021, so to date haven't been hit with the price increases others have. With the rebate I'm currently paying only £85 a month. However I do know it'll rise a bit in about ten months' time.



I think it will rise by more than a bit DC……


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## tom73 (20 Nov 2022)

DCLane said:


> @midlife - I fixed the price for two years back in September 2021, so to date haven't been hit with the price increases others have. With the rebate I'm currently paying only £85 a month. However I do know it'll rise a bit in about ten months' time.



We like you had fixed rate so missed most of the increases. Luckily they offered another fix but way higher than before. The price cap came soon after so help even it out a bit and keep us in some credit but still more than double our old monthly payment.


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## Petrichorwheels (21 Nov 2022)

Pat 5mph said:


> I'm over £200 in credit (dual fuel, ground floor 2 bed flat, single occupancy, not wfh), and yet Shell increased my DD from 93 to 115 (66 refunded separately)
> Are we allowed to switch yet?



Apologies if jumping in on a point resolved further down thread.
I'd get onto the sods pronto and ask them serious questions.
I have at least twice online notched my DD amount with Octopus downwards and they have always accepted it without question.
Seems to me that if you pay your bills/are in positive credit they haven't a leg to stand on.
You are not a free bank for Shell (have the impression they aren't short of dosh) - what are they going to spend your money on - cycling greenwashing?

edited for typo.


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## oldwheels (21 Nov 2022)

I used to use solid fuel a lot and only put on storage heaters about this time of year.
Our only local supplier is advertising that they have plenty in stock. Somebody enquired about price and was told £15.50 per bag. 
Not surprising they have plenty still in stock as that is a 50% increase on spring time price. I have some in stock and it will be kept for emergency use or if I have been away and need to get a quick heat back in the house.
Storage heaters are currently cheaper to run.


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## Pat "5mph" (21 Nov 2022)

Petrichorwheels said:


> Seems to me that if you pay your bills/are in positive credit they haven't a leg to stand on.


Since I posted, I have discovered that on the Shell website/app one can set their own amount of monthly DD.
As I'm now £280 in credit, they suggest I lower my monthly DD from 119 (went up again) to 115 
I'm leaving it till a couple of months into the next price increase in the new year, then ...


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## Beebo (21 Nov 2022)

Today is the first day we have exceeded £10 for a day. It has been cold down here.


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## jowwy (21 Nov 2022)

Beebo said:


> Today is the first day we have exceeded £10 for a day. It has been cold down here.



£10 in gas????


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## Beebo (21 Nov 2022)

jowwy said:


> £10 in gas????



Dual fuel. So gas and electric combined.


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## jowwy (21 Nov 2022)

Beebo said:


> Dual fuel. So gas and electric combined.



Man thats a lot…….


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## midlife (21 Nov 2022)

jowwy said:


> Man thats a lot…….



About £3500 if that's daily use for a year.... Isn't that the average cost of energy per household per year from next April

https://www.current-news.co.uk/news...forecast per unit,and 10.30p/kWh respectively.


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## jowwy (21 Nov 2022)

midlife said:


> About £3500 if that's daily use for a year.... Isn't that the average cost of energy per household per year from next April



3k……and yeh average cost, i dont hit anywhere near that myself


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## midlife (22 Nov 2022)

I guess I am more average and lowly then.....


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## mjr (22 Nov 2022)

midlife said:


> About £3500 if that's daily use for a year....


More than half the heating cost is Nov-Jan. It's basically a bell curve peaking in January spread from November to March/ April.


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## MrGrumpy (22 Nov 2022)

Beebo said:


> Today is the first day we have exceeded £10 for a day. It has been cold down here.



I’ll raise you …….. £15


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## fossyant (22 Nov 2022)

Yikes....some big increases. Keeping an eye on mine.


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## tom73 (22 Nov 2022)

fossyant said:


> Yikes....some big increases. Keeping an eye on mine.



sadly most likely only going to get worse.


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## presta (22 Nov 2022)

mjr said:


> More than half the heating cost is Nov-Jan. It's basically a bell curve peaking in January spread from November to March/ April.



Ovo used to publish their distribution data at one time:


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## Petrichorwheels (22 Nov 2022)

Pat 5mph said:


> Since I posted, I have discovered that on the Shell website/app one can set their own amount of monthly DD.
> As I'm now £280 in credit, they suggest I lower my monthly DD from 119 (went up again) to 115
> I'm leaving it till a couple of months into the next price increase in the new year, then ...



you mean because you can leave without penalty if the prices go up?
If you aren't stuck I'd give them an ultimatum and leave pronto. Now.
If Octopus are taking new folk, I can recommend their simple presentation of info, clear communication and transparency.

Shell don't need your money.
Or deserve it.
They are taking the P.

Edited for typo


----------



## icowden (22 Nov 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> I’ll raise you …….. £15



£13.46 a day for the last month here or £404 for the month (Gas and Leccy combined - 4 bed house).


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## jowwy (22 Nov 2022)

Petrichorwheels said:


> you mean because you can leave without penalty if the prices go up?
> If you aren't stuck I'd give them an ultimatum and leave pronto. Now.
> If Octopus are taking new folk, I can recommend their simple presentation of info, clear communication and transparency.it.
> 
> ...



octopus will take you, but not on the capped rate......i know, because i did it during the previous cap and i had to agree to their full rate and i only did so knowing it wouldnt only be for approx 2 days, then the new cap would kick in and they would have zero choice but to move me to the new flexible capped rate and did so with zero fuss.


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## Petrichorwheels (22 Nov 2022)

jowwy said:


> octopus will take you, but not on the capped rate......i know, because i did it during the previous cap and i had to agree to their full rate and i only did so knowing it wouldnt only be for approx 2 days, then the new cap would kick in and they would have zero choice but to move me to the new flexible capped rate and did so with zero fuss.



maybe missing something, am confused - I thought the cap was a legal government mandated thing.
I have been with Octopus for quite some time - am on the normal "flexible" tariff - always have been - though I understand that fixed tariffs aren't really available any more as no-one (consumers and energy suppliers) know what fresh hell may hit us all.


----------



## jowwy (22 Nov 2022)

Petrichorwheels said:


> maybe missing something, am confused - I thought the cap was a legal government mandated thing.
> I have been with Octopus for quite some time - am on the normal "flexible" tariff - always have been - though I understand that fixed tariffs aren't really available any more as no-one (consumers and energy suppliers) know what fresh hell may hit us all.



For current customers yes....but if you chose to switch by your own free will, then they will accept you , but on their terms. 

The fixed rate available is the uncapped rate. As i said, i did it myself....lucky for 2 days only, then i became a customer and therefore covered for the new October 1st capped rate. I chose to switch of my own free will, so that i could get the better export rate, once my solar was fitted. So for me it was a win, win


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## Scaleyback (22 Nov 2022)

Beebo said:


> Today is the first day we have exceeded £10 for a day. It has been cold down here.



We are approx £8.00 a day (dual fuel) that's with thermostat at 19 c early a.m for 2-3 hours and 18.5c the rest of the day.


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## jowwy (22 Nov 2022)

We are at £6 dual fuel at the moment, during the wetter days and £5 on sunny days due to solar……but we also sell to the grid, but thats only at 45kwh at the moment at 15p/kwh another 8 days of selling in november to go, to help cut the bill a bit.


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## fossyant (22 Nov 2022)

icowden said:


> £13.46 a day for the last month here or £404 for the month (Gas and Leccy combined - 4 bed house).



 Crikey, mine is below £200 and we're not scrimping (3 bed) and my electric is the most expensive. I'm expecting to hit £250-£300 if it's very cold as gas is 3x more expensive than last winter - I have the useage for 18 months now based on monthly readings. We've cut electric as we were wasting alot.


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## tom73 (22 Nov 2022)

Ours is running at around £160 every thing we can do we've done. I've turned down heating even more and our bedroom as joined the rest of the unheated up stairs. The house pours out any heat little we can do about that. 
Gas is the main outgoing we don't use much electric. Just see how we go we've a bit of credit so a little breathing space.


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## mjr (22 Nov 2022)

tom73 said:


> The house pours out any heat little we can do about that.


Sorry if I've forgot but why can't you insulate?


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## MrGrumpy (22 Nov 2022)

icowden said:


> £13.46 a day for the last month here or £404 for the month (Gas and Leccy combined - 4 bed house).



5 bed here , I’m not quite as bad as that but heading that way now ! just one of the delinquents turned up my thermostat whilst I was in bed last night !! Hence I hit £15 for the day !


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## Alex321 (22 Nov 2022)

Petrichorwheels said:


> maybe missing something, am confused - I thought the cap was a legal government mandated thing.
> I have been with Octopus for quite some time - am on the normal "flexible" tariff - always have been - though I understand that fixed tariffs aren't really available any more as no-one (consumers and energy suppliers) know what fresh hell may hit us all.



The cap only applies to the supplier's most basic tariff. Which is normally their standard flexible one.


----------



## cougie uk (23 Nov 2022)

Has anyone looked into buying a bit of their own windfarm as you can with Ripple ?

Worth a watch if you have the cash.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OV_diBtXC4


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## Jenkins (23 Nov 2022)

Email from Bulb this morning


> Based on your latest meter readings and the credit in your account, we're lowering your monthly payment amount from £50.00 to *£17.48*.
> 
> We've included any upcoming Energy Bills Support Scheme payments in our calculations. And your prices are protected by the Government Energy Price Guarantee, which limits the amount you can be charged for each unit of gas or electricity until 31 March 2023.
> 
> ...



With the Government assistance only being a temporary thing and a predicted hike in prices looming on the next review, I went straight onto my account settings and amended the Direct Debit back to £50 to build up a decent bit of credit ready for next year.


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## MrGrumpy (23 Nov 2022)

Jenkins said:


> Email from Bulb this morning
> 
> 
> With the Government assistance only being a temporary thing and a predicted hike in prices looming on the next review, I went straight onto my account settings and amended the Direct Debit back to £50 to build up a decent bit of credit ready for next year.



I remember the days of £50 a month energy DD! It was about 24yrs ago


----------



## Alex321 (24 Nov 2022)

Jenkins said:


> Email from Bulb this morning
> 
> 
> With the Government assistance only being a temporary thing and a predicted hike in prices looming on the next review, I went straight onto my account settings and amended the Direct Debit back to £50 to build up a decent bit of credit ready for next year.



Surely you would be better off putting it into an interest bearing account at your bank or building society than letting the energy company hold it for free?

May not be much interest, but you get nothing from the energy company.


----------



## Jenkins (24 Nov 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Surely you would be better off putting it into an interest bearing account at your bank or building society than letting the energy company hold it for free?
> 
> May not be much interest, but you get nothing from the energy company.



By my guess I'll be about £200 in credit by the end of the Government assistance scheme which would only earn about £1 or £2 at most in interest in the same period so no great loss to me.


----------



## Phaeton (24 Nov 2022)

Having problems with Octopus, when the smart meters were put in both were reporting every 30 minutes, then they stopped on the 6th November, reported it by email still awaiting for a response despite 3 reminders being sent. Also contacted via Twitter, had a couple of responses that they will investigate, the Gas has now re-appeared in the App but not the Electric which is slightly illogical as the Gas uses the Electric to report.

But the other issue I have come across is on the website we're being charges 48.45p/kWh but the App says 33.03p/kWh

All well & good not wanting to use Call Centres they are expensive, but some Customer Service needs to be maintained.


----------



## tom73 (24 Nov 2022)

Same issue re smart meter not working in short in our case no-one remotely cares or can be bothered to sort it. 
Even with a call centre it's no guarantee you can get things fixed.


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## Buck (24 Nov 2022)

The energy price cap is 34p per kWh so maybe that will be why. The website will be showing the pre price cap (aka real) price?


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## presta (27 Nov 2022)

£4300 next year for anyone not on the new means tested Price Guarantee.


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## jowwy (27 Nov 2022)

presta said:


> £4300 next year for anyone not on the new means tested Price Guarantee.



Means tested???? Government price cap per unit will see people pay an average bill of 3k until march 2024


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## Alex321 (27 Nov 2022)

presta said:


> £4300 next year for anyone not on the new means tested Price Guarantee.



The Energy Price Guarantee is not means tested. There will be additional payments made to those on means tested benefits, but the EPG applies to all.


----------



## MrGrumpy (27 Nov 2022)

presta said:


> £4300 next year for anyone not on the new means tested Price Guarantee.



Solar can’t come quick enough for me now. It will hopefully offset a fair bit of cost .


----------



## jowwy (27 Nov 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Solar can’t come quick enough for me now. It will hopefully offset a fair bit of cost .



Just a shame it cant offset the gas too…..but selling it back at 15p does help overall.


----------



## chris-suffolk (27 Nov 2022)

jowwy said:


> Just a shame it cant offset the gas too…..but selling it back at 15p does help overall.



Selling back at 62.3p helps even more !!


----------



## jowwy (27 Nov 2022)

chris-suffolk said:


> Selling back at 62.3p helps even more !!



How you getting that?? Old fit tarrif


----------



## mjr (27 Nov 2022)

presta said:


> £4300 next year for anyone not on the new means tested Price Guarantee.


Can anyone find the unit prices on the ofgem site? Unhelpful opaque tossers.


----------



## Jenkins (27 Nov 2022)

mjr said:


> Can anyone find the unit prices on the ofgem site? Unhelpful opaque tossers.



https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/informatio...seholds/check-if-energy-price-cap-affects-you

Edit - scroll down to 'Energy price guarantee'


----------



## Scaleyback (28 Nov 2022)

Martin Lewis says:

" NEWS: The projected new energy price cap, that will start in April when the price guarantee ends, will be: UP 73% taking a bill for typical use (use more pay more use less pay less) from £2,500/yr to £4,350 The cap will then be DOWN 15% in July to £3,700/yr typical use. "


----------



## Alex321 (28 Nov 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> Martin Lewis says:
> 
> " NEWS: The projected new energy price cap, that will start in April when the price guarantee ends, will be: UP 73% taking a bill for typical use (use more pay more use less pay less) from £2,500/yr to £4,350 The cap will then be DOWN 15% in July to £3,700/yr typical use. "



So even Martin Lewis can get it wrong.

The Price Guarantee doesn't end until March 2024 (As stated on the OFGEM site above). From April it will go up to £3000 for "typical" households, rather than the current £2500.

That £4350 is what "typical" households would pay if the price guarantee weren't in place.

It is very confusing, but AIUI, what it means is that the price cap is set (by OFGEM, not the government) at a level which is the minimum that would be economical for the energy companies, and the government then pays them the difference between the EPG rate (which is set by the government) and the price cap rate, with consumers only paying the EPG rate.

The government explanation is here.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ergy-bills-support-factsheet-8-september-2022


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## Alex321 (28 Nov 2022)

Jenkins said:


> https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/informatio...seholds/check-if-energy-price-cap-affects-you
> 
> Edit - scroll down to 'Energy price guarantee'



Even those are only average rates - they vary by region.
The full list is here
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...l-rates/energy-price-guarantee-regional-rates

They haven't yet published thaht list for rates from April onwards.


----------



## Scaleyback (28 Nov 2022)

It's. getting confusing ! so this article is what. . . all bo**ocks or out of date ?
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/n...rantee-is-now-set-to-end-in-april---what-it-/


----------



## mjr (28 Nov 2022)

Jenkins said:


> https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/informatio...seholds/check-if-energy-price-cap-affects-you
> 
> Edit - scroll down to 'Energy price guarantee'


Only shows "From 1 October 2022" while I am looking for the next ones.


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## Alex321 (28 Nov 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> It's. getting confusing ! so this article is what. . . all bo**ocks or out of date ?
> https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/n...rantee-is-now-set-to-end-in-april---what-it-/



Out of date.

The government *were* going to shorten it to April 2023, but have now put it back to ending in April 2024. That was only announced on the 24th of November, while that article was published on the 18th of October.


----------



## Alex321 (28 Nov 2022)

Alex321 said:


> So even Martin Lewis can get it wrong.


Actually, he wasn't wrong at the time.

The quote above was from a tweet he made in October (the 17th) - well before last week's announcement that the EPG would not now be ending next April.


----------



## Alex321 (28 Nov 2022)

mjr said:


> Only shows "From 1 October 2022" while I am looking for the next ones.



Yeah, they don't have the actual unit rates from April available yet (I'm not sure why, since those are the actual values that will be used, but I suspect the Government just said "it will go up from £2500 to £3000 and they now have to work back from that to work out actual unit rates - which will vary by region).


----------



## Scaleyback (28 Nov 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Out of date.
> 
> The government *were* going to shorten it to April 2023, but have now put it back to ending in April 2024. That was only announced on the 24th of November, while that article was published on the 18th of October.



Doh ? I guess I'm not keeping up (can you blame me) I must have
missed/forgotten the 24th nov thing.


----------



## Alex321 (28 Nov 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> Doh ? I guess I'm not keeping up (can you blame me) I must have
> missed/forgotten the 24th nov thing.



No, I don't blame you at all, they have changed it so often in the last couple of months.


----------



## byegad (28 Nov 2022)

This is making my brain hurt! While I much appreciate any gibberment intervention in keeping my bills down, I feel they're unable to arrange the proverbial celebration in an establishment dedicated to the production of alcoholic beverages. I suspect gibberment policy is being driven by the headlines in the Tory press in reaction to announced changes, rather than any vague idea of what needs to be done in the face of Brexit, the Russian war on Ukraine and Climate Change.


----------



## classic33 (28 Nov 2022)

byegad said:


> This is making my brain hurt! While I much appreciate any gibberment intervention in keeping my bills down, I feel they're unable to arrange the proverbial celebration in an establishment dedicated to the production of alcoholic beverages. I suspect gibberment policy is being driven by the headlines in the Tory press in reaction to announced changes, rather than any vague idea of what needs to be done in the face of Brexit, the Russian war on Ukraine and Climate Change.


You missed out Covid!


----------



## Ming the Merciless (28 Nov 2022)

presta said:


> £4300 next year for anyone not on the new means tested Price Guarantee.



There is no total cap such as you posit here. Bills can and will go well beyond £4,300 for many.


----------



## Phaeton (28 Nov 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> There is no total cap such as you posit here. Bills can and will go well beyond £4,300 for many.


It's quite frightening how this whole thing has been handled & published


----------



## Ming the Merciless (28 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> It's quite frightening how this whole thing has been handled & published



The communication about “energy caps” has been poor and deceiving.


----------



## jowwy (28 Nov 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> There is no total cap such as you posit here. Bills can and will go well beyond £4,300 for many.



There is no actual £4300 ofgem rate, as its being capped by the UK government at £3000, so it just means the energy companies will set the rate for £4300, government will pay the difference between that rate and the rate for £3000

Something like that anyway


----------



## tom73 (28 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> It's quite frightening how this whole thing has been handled & published



That's the problem talk and reporting of "typical household" is meaningless to most people. Cost per uint is not idea without a simple easy to use well published and promoted easy online calculator. As with everything else the it's one at the very bottom that will be effected most but have little place to go to deal with it.


----------



## Alex321 (28 Nov 2022)

jowwy said:


> There is no actual £4300 ofgem rate, as its being capped by the UK government at £3000, so it just means the energy companies will set the rate for £4300, government will pay the difference between that rate and the rate for £3000
> 
> Something like that anyway



Something not very like that, in spite of what we keep getting told.

There is NO cap on overall bill. It isn't £3000 or £4300 or anything else.

And the"actual OFGEM rate" is the one which means a "typical" household would pay £4300. The Energy Price Guarantee is the government set value - and you are right that the government will pay the energy companies the difference between the EPG and the OFGEM rate.

This "typical" household is just based on the median value across the country of usage (dual fuel), and the average EPG unit price (the actual unit price will vary by region, hence using the average).

For actually predicting what most people are likely to pay, the median is slightly better than the mean, but the mode would have been even better.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (28 Nov 2022)

jowwy said:


> There is no actual £4300 ofgem rate, as its being capped by the UK government at £3000, so it just means the energy companies will set the rate for £4300, government will pay the difference between that rate and the rate for £3000
> 
> Something like that anyway



No no no, there’s no cap of this sort at all. There’s just a cap on the unit rate, no overall cap on bills.


----------



## Phaeton (28 Nov 2022)

It would be far better if this "typical" household was quantified, the "typical" household uses X amount of Electricity per year the "typical" household uses X amount of Gas per year, as it it is it's just numbers in the sky.


----------



## jowwy (28 Nov 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> No no no, there’s no cap of this sort at all. There’s just a cap on the unit rate, no overall cap on bills.



i said rate around 3 times in that post lol


----------



## jowwy (28 Nov 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Something not very like that, in spite of what we keep getting told.
> 
> *There is NO cap on overall bill.* It isn't £3000 or £4300 or anything else.
> 
> ...



again i never said there was and i did say rate around four times in the post......


----------



## Alex321 (28 Nov 2022)

jowwy said:


> again i never said there was and i did say rate around four times in the post......



You never mentioned "unit rate", and without the "unit", the word rate has little meaning in that context.


----------



## jowwy (28 Nov 2022)

Alex321 said:


> You never mentioned "unit rate", and without the "unit", the word rate has little meaning in that context.



oh ffs - seriously........come on alex, thats not picking to the enth degree, just to make it look like im wrong and your right.......your as bad as the government themselves.

yet you stated this *" and you are right that the government will pay the energy companies the difference between the EPG and the OFGEM rate."*

tell me were you state UNIT RATE in that sentence??? no, you used the word rate, the same as me.


----------



## fossyant (28 Nov 2022)

The Energy Trust publishes the 'averages' and it's on most Energy supplier's web sites - you can compare here how you are doing. We're low gas, but high electric based upon consumption.


----------



## tom73 (28 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> It would be far better if this "typical" household was quantified, the "typical" household uses X amount of Electricity per year the "typical" household uses X amount of Gas per year, as it it is it's just numbers in the sky.



Even better make energy companies send out personal customer annual cost forecast in plain english and clear to understand information and format.


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (28 Nov 2022)

Energy companies have been warned against increasing direct debit to people who have actually cut their usage

There do seem to be constant articles in the press showing people who have had their DD raised in spite of using less than the previous DD paid for, including allowances for winter usage and all that

Does provoke suspicion that some energy companies want to put some money in their bank rather than their customer's


----------



## jowwy (28 Nov 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> Energy companies have been warned against increasing direct debit to people who have actually cut their usage
> 
> There do seem to be constant articles in the press showing people who have had their DD raised in spite of using less than the previous DD paid for, including allowances for winter usage and all that
> 
> Does provoke suspicion that some energy companies want to put some money in their bank rather than their customer's



Does seem the way of most companies, but you can do a flexible DD and only pay for what you use....and the unit rate is still the same. Therefore you never accrue credit to sit in their banks.


----------



## tom73 (28 Nov 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> Energy companies have been warned against increasing direct debit to people who have actually cut their usage
> 
> There do seem to be constant articles in the press showing people who have had their DD raised in spite of using less than the previous DD paid for, including allowances for winter usage and all that
> 
> Does provoke suspicion that some energy companies want to put some money in their bank rather than their customer's



Yes Grant has sent them a letter I bet they are really running scared now.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (28 Nov 2022)

jowwy said:


> i said rate around 3 times in that post lol



Nope you didn’t say , four times (in reply to @Alex321) , or three times you said neither you just mentioned an arbitrary £4,300 as though it had any meaning.


----------



## jowwy (28 Nov 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Nope you didn’t say , four times (in reply to @Alex321) , or three times you said neither you just mentioned an arbitrary £4,300 as though it had any meaning.



here is my post - and i state "RATE" which is the same as @Alex321 stated on 4 separate occasions....i will await the apology, which i know wont come.






and here is what @Alex321 said and used the same words, whilst also quoting i was correct 

And the"actual OFGEM rate" is the one which means a "typical" household would pay £4300. The Energy Price Guarantee is the government set value - and you are right that the government will pay the energy companies the difference between the EPG and the OFGEM rate.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (28 Nov 2022)

jowwy said:


> here is my post - and i state "RATE" which is the same as @Alex321 stated on 4 separate occasions....i will await the apology, which i know wont come.
> 
> View attachment 669452





jowwy said:


> so it just means the energy companies will set the rate for £4300



What is this mythical £4,300 rate you speak of?


----------



## fossyant (28 Nov 2022)

There is quite a bit of 'naughtiness' going on with suppliers. Heard a few customers have been switched to prepayment via smart meters, debt chasing has got aggressive, and one that's affecting lots of us, we can't reduce our DD's even though we've cut energy use and are massively in credit.


----------



## jowwy (28 Nov 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> What is this mythical £4,300 rate you speak of?



its the average cost of an energy bill of an average household...adn the UNIT rate will be set, to get that average cost....

it s NOT and i have NEVER said it is the MAXIMUM someone will pay


----------



## Alex321 (28 Nov 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> What is this mythical £4,300 rate you speak of?



He is just confused in his terminology.

The OFGEM capped unit rate would mean an annual rate/charge of £4,300 for a so-called "typical" household.


----------



## jowwy (28 Nov 2022)

Alex321 said:


> He is just confused in his terminology.
> 
> The OFGEM capped unit rate would mean an annual rate/charge of £4,300 for a so-called "typical" household.



you said the same thing....so who's confused here????


----------



## cougie uk (28 Nov 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Out of date.
> 
> The government *were* going to shorten it to April 2023, but have now put it back to ending in April 2024. That was only announced on the 24th of November, while that article was published on the 18th of October.



Article here still has 2023. 
And that was published 24th November. 

https://news.sky.com/story/the-reco...ave-risen-to-without-government-help-12754060


----------



## jowwy (28 Nov 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Something not very like that, in spite of what we keep getting told.
> 
> There is NO cap on overall bill. It isn't £3000 or £4300 or anything else.
> 
> ...



this is your post.......where does it say UNIT Rate??????


----------



## Alex321 (28 Nov 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Article here still has 2023.
> And that was published 24th November.
> 
> https://news.sky.com/story/the-reco...ave-risen-to-without-government-help-12754060



Yes, at 07:57. I'm not sure what time the announcement came that it would now be extended to 2024, but I expect it was later in the day than that 

EDIT - Having read the text, no they don't still have 2023 anyhow?

They say (rightly) that it will be raised to £3,000 from next April.


----------



## Alex321 (28 Nov 2022)

jowwy said:


> this is your post.......where does it say UNIT Rate??????



I didn't but, it was clear from context that I wasn't talking about a "rate" of £4,300, unlike your post which explicitly stated a "rate" of £4300.


----------



## jowwy (28 Nov 2022)

Alex321 said:


> I didn't but, it was clear from context that I wasn't talking about a "rate" of £4,300, unlike your post which explicitly stated a "rate" of £4300.



oh come on Mr Politician......Please show me were i said " a rate of £4300"....My post explicitly states..." There is no actual £4300 ofgem rate" right there on first line


----------



## Ming the Merciless (28 Nov 2022)

jowwy said:


> its the average cost of an energy bill of an average household...adn the UNIT rate will be set, to get that average cost....
> 
> it s NOT and i have NEVER said it is the MAXIMUM someone will pay



It’s not a rate then is it?


----------



## jowwy (28 Nov 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> It’s not a rate then is it?



first line - what does it say - let me tell you for the short sighted......."THERE IS NO ACTUAL £4300 OFGEM RATE"


----------



## cougie uk (28 Nov 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Yes, at 07:57. I'm not sure what time the announcement came that it would now be extended to 2024, but I expect it was later in the day than that
> 
> EDIT - Having read the text, no they don't still have 2023 anyhow?
> 
> They say (rightly) that it will be raised to £3,000 from next April.



It's all very confusing.

I would have thought there would be plenty of news if it's been extended by a whole year? But this is all I could find.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (28 Nov 2022)

jowwy said:


> first line - what does it say - let me tell you for the short sighted......."THERE IS NO ACTUAL £4300 OFGEM RATE"
> 
> View attachment 669460





jowwy said:


> so it just means the energy companies will set the rate for £4300



Make your mind up 🤣


----------



## jowwy (28 Nov 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Make your mind up 🤣



Yes they will set a RATE...so that the use of the average household would be £4300, not a rate of £4300.....i explicitly said set a rate FOR and not a rate OF....both words have different meanings

so the rate maybe 37p/kwh electric and 12p/kwh gas.....so the average cost would then be £4300 , or it maybe 39p/kwh electric and 13p/kwh gas

no one knows yet, but it will not be the MAXIMUM someone pays, it just an AVERAGE household bill


----------



## chris-suffolk (28 Nov 2022)

jowwy said:


> How you getting that?? Old fit tarrif



Yes, from 2011. Over £2.5k per year and scheduled to go up by RPI (11%+) in April.


----------



## chris-suffolk (28 Nov 2022)

fossyant said:


> There is quite a bit of 'naughtiness' going on with suppliers. Heard a few customers have been switched to prepayment via smart meters, debt chasing has got aggressive, and one that's affecting lots of us, we can't reduce our DD's even though we've cut energy use and are massively in credit.



Octopus allow me to move my DD up or down, monthly, as I wish. They even send me an e-mail each month reminding me that my DD is due, how much it will be and linking to a page where I can alter the amount up or down. Can't really say fairer than that.


----------



## toffee (28 Nov 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> Energy companies have been warned against increasing direct debit to people who have actually cut their usage
> 
> There do seem to be constant articles in the press showing people who have had their DD raised in spite of using less than the previous DD paid for, including allowances for winter usage and all that
> 
> Does provoke suspicion that some energy companies want to put some money in their bank rather than their customer's



I had this argument with Scottish Power. They are setting DD's based on historical usage which for 95% of customers is a load of rubbish as most people are cutting their consumption.

They should build into their calculations an estimate of what customers are reducing their usage by. They use have some useful data of the reductions customers are achieving.


----------



## fossyant (28 Nov 2022)

toffee said:


> I had this argument with Scottish Power. They are setting DD's based on historical usage which for 95% of customers is a load of rubbish as most people are cutting their consumption.
> 
> They should build into their calculations an estimate of what customers are reducing their usage by. They use have some useful data of the reductions customers are achieving.



Same issue, SP not letting me reduce and I am overpaying by £100 a month 

Got two mini breaks in April, so I'll withdraw it all then  Found the secret option burried within their web site to request your balance back.


----------



## Phaeton (28 Nov 2022)

chris-suffolk said:


> Octopus allow me to move my DD up or down, monthly, as I wish. They even send me an e-mail each month reminding me that my DD is due, how much it will be and linking to a page where I can alter the amount up or down. Can't really say fairer than that.


I've only just gone back to Octopus so can't say if things have changed (August), but in the past they controlled the amount of the DD to a degree, I remember being in credit by more than 2 months worth, but they would not let me drop it below a certain number


----------



## tom73 (28 Nov 2022)

fossyant said:


> Same issue, SP not letting me reduce and I am overpaying by £100 a month
> 
> Got two mini breaks in April, so I'll withdraw it all then  Found the secret option burried within their web site to request your balance back.



Most let you get back they just don't like talking about it.


----------



## toffee (28 Nov 2022)

tom73 said:


> Most let you get back they just don't like talking about it.



You'll get it back, just don't want them to have it in the first place.


----------



## mjr (28 Nov 2022)

chris-suffolk said:


> Octopus allow me to move my DD up or down, monthly, as I wish. They even send me an e-mail each month reminding me that my DD is due, how much it will be and linking to a page where I can alter the amount up or down. Can't really say fairer than that.


It would be fairer if the email arrived in time to lower this month's DD, not only from next month.


----------



## Petrichorwheels (29 Nov 2022)

mjr said:


> It would be fairer if the email arrived in time to lower this month's DD, not only from next month.



You can tinker with the DD any time you want. You don't need permission. Octopus very good in my experience. Have only ever lowered mine, never been disputed.


----------



## mjr (29 Nov 2022)

Petrichorwheels said:


> You can tinker with the DD any time you want. You don't need permission. Octopus very good in my experience. Have only ever lowered mine, never been disputed.


Yes, but the point I am making is that if you adjust the DD after getting their monthly email, it's too late to change the current month's payment. The change only takes effect for the next month.

Octopus are good, and very good compared to $-hell, but even they could still be fairer.


----------



## chris-suffolk (29 Nov 2022)

mjr said:


> Yes, but the point I am making is that if you adjust the DD after getting their monthly email, it's too late to change the current month's payment. The change only takes effect for the next month.
> 
> Octopus are good, and very good compared to $-hell, but even they could still be fairer.



The email arrived a few days back, payment is taken on the 4th, so time to alter for next month if I want, they ask for 5 days, and I had 8 or 9.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (29 Nov 2022)

Wear these to keep everything toasty

https://www.needlesports.com/Catalo...texPile-Systems-Buffalo/BUF-SUPBLA-BUF-SUPBLA


----------



## jowwy (30 Nov 2022)

anyone signed up to the octopus saving session today between 5:30 and 6:30pm???


----------



## Phaeton (30 Nov 2022)

Yes, but as they are not getting meter readings from us & it's greyer than a grey day that's grey outside with zero panel generation unless we go out for food which will cost us more than we would save it's a little pointless in that respect.


----------



## cougie uk (30 Nov 2022)

jowwy said:


> anyone signed up to the octopus saving session today between 5:30 and 6:30pm???



I have but I face rebellion from the household seeing as the first go only saved us 2p.


----------



## jowwy (30 Nov 2022)

cougie uk said:


> I have but I face rebellion from the household seeing as the first go only saved us 2p.



i saved zero first time and then 0.17kwh the second time, getting me 31p.........today im going to put the big tv, sky box on the solar generator and make sue all lights are switched off

Also going to start using the gas pizza oven out on the deck more......electric oven costs a fortune to run


----------



## Ming the Merciless (30 Nov 2022)

cougie uk said:


> I have but I face rebellion from the household seeing as the first go only saved us 2p.



Think of all the gob stoppers you’ll be able to buy


----------



## mjr (30 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Yes, but as they are not getting meter readings from us & it's greyer than a grey day that's grey outside with zero panel generation unless we go out for food which will cost us more than we would save it's a little pointless in that respect.


How did you wangle that? My signup was rejected due to missing readings, even though they looked complete to me at first glance


----------



## Phaeton (30 Nov 2022)

mjr said:


> How did you wangle that? My signup was rejected due to missing readings, even though they looked complete to me at first glance



No idea, I followed the link & said I'd join, they know they're not getting readings as I've raised it via both email & twatter.


----------



## jowwy (1 Dec 2022)

there's another octopus saving session today at 17:00pm until 18:00pm.....


----------



## Petrichorwheels (1 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> there's another octopus saving session today at 17:00pm until 18:00pm.....



You can't cram much into an hour.
How much do you actually save?
Timing seems curious, can't help wondering if a marketing gimmick though am with Octopus and like* - don't have a smartmeter though.
* They have been sending old folks (doesn't include me) free decent electric blankets for lounging in.


----------



## jowwy (1 Dec 2022)

Petrichorwheels said:


> You can't cram much into an hour.
> How much do you actually save?
> Timing seems curious, can't help wondering if a marketing gimmick though am with Octopus and like* - don't have a smartmeter though.
> * They have been sending old folks (doesn't include me) free decent electric blankets for lounging in.



They pay you £2.25 per kwh saved and denominations there of down the scale......31p made last session, so that pays for 1kwh of leccy and i only lowered my usage by 0.170kwh ( approx)

As a famous grocery store keeps saying "every little helps"


----------



## cougie uk (1 Dec 2022)

Petrichorwheels said:


> You can't cram much into an hour.
> How much do you actually save?
> Timing seems curious, can't help wondering if a marketing gimmick though am with Octopus and like* - don't have a smartmeter though.
> * They have been sending old folks (doesn't include me) free decent electric blankets for lounging in.



I think that's the point. 
If they're asking you to go without electricity for the evening - who would do that ?
This is just taking the peak off the demand. 

Start cooking after 6pm instead of on the dot of 5. 

Why so suspicious?


----------



## fossyant (1 Dec 2022)

Bills are creeping up.

Electricity up by about £1 a day, but gas now £3.50 a day. So leccy currently £160 per month and gas has just hit £100 - we've had the heating on all day this week as we're not well !


----------



## Phaeton (1 Dec 2022)

cougie uk said:


> I think that's the point.
> If they're asking you to go without electricity for the evening - who would do that ?
> This is just taking the peak off the demand.
> 
> ...



I think it's just an experiment to see what people are prepared to do, I would think that the peak time is 4pm until 7pm & they are trying to come up with a way to encourage people to consider their usage between those hours. If they can reduce the peak, then presumably they can refrain from building the network up further, or at least in the short term.

However the cynic may say they are also experimenting as to when they put the high rates in to curb demand via Smart meters


----------



## cougie uk (1 Dec 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I think it's just an experiment to see what people are prepared to do, I would think that the peak time is 4pm until 7pm & they are trying to come up with a way to encourage people to consider their usage between those hours. If they can reduce the peak, then presumably they can refrain from building the network up further, or at least in the short term.
> 
> However the cynic may say they are also experimenting as to when they put the high rates in to curb demand via Smart meters



Perhaps a bit earlier. 

I see no problem with shifting demand. This is why I charge the EV when it's 7.5p per kWh.


----------



## jowwy (1 Dec 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I think it's just an experiment to see what people are prepared to do, I would think that the peak time is 4pm until 7pm & they are trying to come up with a way to encourage people to consider their usage between those hours. If they can reduce the peak, then presumably they can refrain from building the network up further, or at least in the short term.
> 
> However the cynic may say they are also experimenting as to when they *put the high rates in to curb demand via Smart meters*



but we all one one fixed rate at the moment via the government unit rate cap ( if on standard flexible plan)......and as we are contracted for that and not for low peak and high peak tariffs that wont change......unless your on their agile plan


----------



## Phaeton (1 Dec 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Perhaps a bit earlier.


Yes it was very much a finger in the air type of guesstimate


jowwy said:


> but we all one one fixed rate* at the moment* via the government unit rate cap ( if on standard flexible plan)......*and as we are contracted for that and not for low peak and high peak tariffs that wont change*......unless your on their agile plan


I have no faith that will not be the case, I feel, again a very much finger in the air type approach, that within 5 years peak rates will be introduced to try to flatten the demand peak.


----------



## jowwy (1 Dec 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Yes it was very much a finger in the air type of guesstimate
> 
> I have no faith that will not be the case, I feel, again a very much finger in the air type approach, that within 5 years peak rates will be introduced to try to flatten the demand peak.



but we on solar my man.....you and i will be good, cause we made the jump to be partially sustainable


----------



## mjr (1 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> but we all one one fixed rate at the moment via the government unit rate cap ( if on standard flexible plan)......and as we are contracted for that and not for low peak and high peak tariffs that wont change......unless your on their agile plan


Agile and various economy 7/6/4 tariffs are still in use, but not all are open to new switchers at present. As well as some people still on long cheap fixes. It's not true that everyone is on the 34p/kWh flat cap.


----------



## jowwy (1 Dec 2022)

mjr said:


> Agile and various economy 7/6/4 tariffs are still in use, but not all are open to new switchers at present. As well as some people still on long cheap fixes. I*t's not true that everyone is on the 34p/kWh flat cap.*



look at what i put in brackets


----------



## Phaeton (1 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> but we on solar my man.....you and i will be good, cause we made the jump to be partially sustainable



It's not good at this time of year, mine has done very little for the past few days


----------



## jowwy (1 Dec 2022)

Phaeton said:


> It's not good at this time of year, mine has done very little for the past few days



already on 5kwh's for today......not a cloud in the sky since 8am


----------



## Alex321 (1 Dec 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I think it's just an experiment to see what people are prepared to do, I would think that the peak time is 4pm until 7pm & they are trying to come up with a way to encourage people to consider their usage between those hours. If they can reduce the peak, then presumably they can refrain from building the network up further, or at least in the short term.
> 
> However the cynic may say they are also experimenting as to when they put the high rates in to curb demand via Smart meters



Their agile tariff is based on the half-hourly rate wholesale rate they are charged. Both for import and export (but with different multipliers so they make a profit, obviously).

And that half hourly rate is almost always highest between about 4PM and 7PM.


----------



## Alex321 (1 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> already on 5kwh's for today......not a cloud in the sky since 8am



We're only about 30 miles South of you, and haven't seen any sun so far today. Battery has gone up from 5% to 12%, where each 1% is about 0.16kWh, and it is showing 0.365kWh "production", so a total of round about 1.5kWh generated so far.


----------



## Phaeton (1 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> already on 5kwh's for today......not a cloud in the sky since 8am



It's grim oop North


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## jowwy (1 Dec 2022)

Alex321 said:


> We're only about 30 miles South of you, and haven't seen any sun so far today. Battery has gone up from 5% to 12%, where each 1% is about 0.16kWh, and it is showing 0.365kWh "production", so a total of round about 1.5kWh generated so far.



we on 6.3kwh.....but remember i'm 1600ft (approx) above sea level, the fog has been below us in the valley


----------



## Petrichorwheels (1 Dec 2022)

cougie uk said:


> I think that's the point.
> If they're asking you to go without electricity for the evening - who would do that ?
> This is just taking the peak off the demand.
> 
> ...



Not suspicious at all - just that I would have expected the "reward" to be at a different timeslot.


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## fossyant (1 Dec 2022)

The Solar thread is > way !


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## jowwy (1 Dec 2022)

fossyant said:


> The Solar thread is > way !



my bad.....wrong thread


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## Ming the Merciless (1 Dec 2022)

Phaeton said:


> It's grim oop North



Ya want ba seeing na bloody san through tha soot


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## Phaeton (1 Dec 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Ya want ba seeing na bloody san through tha soot



Not quite that North


----------



## mjr (1 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> look at what i put in brackets


There is no standard.


----------



## jowwy (1 Dec 2022)

mjr said:


> There is no standard.



which goes against your previous answer....but never mind hey


----------



## gbb (1 Dec 2022)

I really must kick myself into being more detailed in analysis of our billing / usage but overall, the results of our latest changes are very positive. 
Since last months combined bill of circa £170
Pros...New very efficient boiler, new heat pump tumble drier. We're still actively trying to reduce usage wherever we reasonably can
Cons...another person now in the household, more gas, more electric used. Its also getting colder, the heating has been on a but more, ditto the washing is now requiring energy to dry it.
This months combined bill £131.

Thats a big result , very cood considering there must inevitably be more usage and unit costs have gone up.

So a very rough average, we are paying £9 a week , duh, £16, for gas, same for electic. Thats actually not bad at all.

A small gripe....the new boiler is so efficient we have lost the residual /waste heat that kept the cold edge off the house temps, allowing us to use the heating less.
Now, the house is naturally colder, requiring us to put the boiler on sooner than we would.

Its 6 and 2 threes, we will gain that and more back in the warmer months.


----------



## Regular.Cyclist (1 Dec 2022)

Today we took the step of doing something with the £400 energy rebate that is coming our way. We made a donation of £200 to a local food bank and another £200 to a local women’s aid group.

Why?

We are on a very good fixed rate and have a good household income so simply do not need the energy rebate. As there is no way to refuse it we have passed it on to good causes where it will help those less fortunate.


----------



## jowwy (2 Dec 2022)

Anyone got any energy monitoring plugs??? are they any good?? whats the apps like?? etc etc


----------



## fossyant (2 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> Anyone got any energy monitoring plugs??? are they any good?? whats the apps like?? etc etc



TP Link Tapo P110 plugs. Got 6 now. Impressed TBH. Small and dead easy to pair up. Energy monitoring good, and the app's been updated with unit price, so you pop that in and can sync it across all plugs so you enter it once. Gives current use and history. Been useful to see what the TV uses, and the heating in the conservatory - that's hitting my use at the moment - got the oil radiator on pretty low, and just boost the heat with a fan heater first thing. The radiator is cycling through 900w but you can see it's actually on about 30 minutes in every 60.


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## fossyant (2 Dec 2022)

Example of the TP Link Plug power monitoring of the Conservatory power use. Fan heater abd radiator on about 8:15, then the radiator takes till 10ish to get to temperature.

All oth other timer schedules etc.


----------



## Phaeton (2 Dec 2022)

Obviously this would be more use to people with batteries & smart meters, but these energy saving hours that are being offered, I wonder what the effect would be if they offered something similar to E7 for 2 hours early in the afternoon. 

People could charge their batteries & then use that through the the 4pm to 7pm peak, people without batteries could potentially cook their food earlier & just need to warm it back up for their meal time.


----------



## jowwy (2 Dec 2022)

fossyant said:


> TP Link Tapo P110 plugs. Got 6 now. Impressed TBH. Small and dead easy to pair up. Energy monitoring good, and the app's been updated with unit price, so you pop that in and can sync it across all plugs so you enter it once. Gives current use and history. Been useful to see what the TV uses, and the heating in the conservatory - that's hitting my use at the moment - got the oil radiator on pretty low, and just boost the heat with a fan heater first thing. The radiator is cycling through 900w but you can see it's actually on about 30 minutes in every 60.



top man...willl look into those....

are all plugs on one app??


----------



## jowwy (2 Dec 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Obviously this would be more use to people with batteries & smart meters, but these energy saving hours that are being offered, I wonder what the effect would be if they offered something similar to E7 for 2 hours early in the afternoon.
> 
> People could charge their batteries & then use that through the the 4pm to 7pm peak, people without batteries could potentially cook their food earlier & just need to warm it back up for their meal time.



yup - i have a solar generator. so last night at 5, i plugged the tv, sky q and internet into that and basically only the fridge freezer was running off leccy for that hour....


----------



## presta (2 Dec 2022)

fossyant said:


> TP Link Tapo P110 plugs.



Will they export data to an Excel file?
I assume this means that they won't work with a W10 laptop:


----------



## PaulSB (2 Dec 2022)

@Regular.Cyclist you are to be applauded for your action. 👏👏 I have a cousin who doesn't need the money and does similar. It's nice to learn of people thinking in this way.


----------



## fossyant (2 Dec 2022)

presta said:


> Will they export data to an Excel file?
> I assume this means that they won't work with a W10 laptop:
> 
> View attachment 669808



Bloody hell, yes they do export data ! Just tried it, they email you the power and energy use by day and week as two separate excel spreadsheets !  The energy use is day, month and year !


----------



## fossyant (2 Dec 2022)

presta said:


> Will they export data to an Excel file?
> I assume this means that they won't work with a W10 laptop:
> 
> View attachment 669808



PS Runs off a TP Link Tapo app or Google/Alexa and similar.


----------



## cougie uk (2 Dec 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Obviously this would be more use to people with batteries & smart meters, but these energy saving hours that are being offered, I wonder what the effect would be if they offered something similar to E7 for 2 hours early in the afternoon.
> 
> People could charge their batteries & then use that through the the 4pm to 7pm peak, people without batteries could potentially cook their food earlier & just need to warm it back up for their meal time.



That has got to be a tiny percentage of the population though ? I doubt it would make much of a dent.


----------



## cougie uk (2 Dec 2022)

Had my solar panels survey today - good news is I can get 12 on the roof, bad news is it will be 2023 now. 
Oh well moving in the right direction anyway.


----------



## Phaeton (2 Dec 2022)

cougie uk said:


> That has got to be a tiny percentage of the population though ? I doubt it would make much of a dent.



True, but potentially interesting, I admit to being biased


----------



## fossyant (2 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> top man...willl look into those....
> 
> are all plugs on one app??



They are, and light bulbs/cameras and all sorts of other TAPO products


----------



## jowwy (2 Dec 2022)

fossyant said:


> They are, and light bulbs/cameras and all sorts of other TAPO products



Will look into this more and get some plugs sorted for each item……wish the smart extension was energy monitoring too


----------



## tom73 (2 Dec 2022)

fossyant said:


> They are, and light bulbs/cameras and all sorts of other TAPO products



Sadly not thread or matter supported.


----------



## jowwy (2 Dec 2022)

tom73 said:


> Sadly not thread or matter supported.



Need to explain this comment???

I asked fossy if the plugs were supported all in one app, to which he answered yes, along with the bulbs and cameras. Now the app supports energy monitoring, which in turn helps you to understand how much things cost and then in turn helps support money saving decisions based on those cost….therefore reducing energy bills.


----------



## mjr (2 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> Need to explain this comment???
> 
> I asked fossy if the plugs were supported all in one app, to which he answered yes, along with the bulbs and cameras. Now the app supports energy monitoring, which in turn helps you to understand how much things cost and then in turn helps support money saving decisions based on those cost….therefore reducing energy bills.


https://www.threadgroup.org/BUILT-FOR-IOT/Smart-Home explains thread. 

https://www.pocket-lint.com/smart-home/news/156992-what-is-matter-smart-home-standard explains matter. 

Basically, tapo are non standard and don't really talk to other things, an evolutionary dead end. You can't easily use them as part of a general smart home system. Officially, it's their app or nothing. Their app isn't going to talk to your electric supplier and automatically switch things off during a "saving session" or similar, like a smart home system can. 

Although someone has worked out how to operate them from Python, so maybe someone has made or will make a translator or gateway.


----------



## jowwy (2 Dec 2022)

mjr said:


> https://www.threadgroup.org/BUILT-FOR-IOT/Smart-Home explains thread.
> 
> https://www.pocket-lint.com/smart-home/news/156992-what-is-matter-smart-home-standard explains matter.
> 
> ...



I never said they would talk to my supplier or switch things off…..i can do that myself. But they will inform me of energy usage. Which is what i require.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (2 Dec 2022)

gbb said:


> I really must kick myself into being more detailed in analysis of our billing / usage but overall, the results of our latest changes are very positive.
> Since last months combined bill of circa £170
> Pros...New very efficient boiler, new heat pump tumble drier. We're still actively trying to reduce usage wherever we reasonably can
> Cons...another person now in the household, more gas, more electric used. Its also getting colder, the heating has been on a but more, ditto the washing is now requiring energy to dry it.
> ...



Take a look at your insulation. Our house drops about 1C over 9 hours before the control timed set temperature kicks the heating back in. It then only has to raise temperature 1C, then the radiators continue pumping out enough heat until the timed temp goes back to 7C (frost setting) about an hour before we go to bed.

Monthly Bills still under £80 for both gas and electric


----------



## jowwy (2 Dec 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Take a look at your insulation. Our house drops about 1C over 9 hours before the control timed set temperature kicks the heating back in. It then only has to raise temperature 1C, then the radiators continue pumping out enough heat until the timed temp goes back to 7C (frost setting) about an hour before we go to bed.
> 
> Monthly Bills still under £80 for both gas and electric



So your house is only 7c????

and as the standing charge for electric on gas is circa £30 you say your only pay an extra £50 usage of electric and gas, therfore only £12.50 a week for dual fuel???
are you on some sort of fixed super rate still???


----------



## mjr (2 Dec 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Take a look at your insulation. Our house drops about 1C over 9 hours before the control timed set temperature kicks the heating back in.


At what external temperature? That can make a difference.


----------



## mjr (2 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> I never said they would talk to my supplier or switch things off…..i can do that myself. But they will inform me of energy usage. Which is what i require.


Why waste your time on boring things which can be automated? But anyway, that's why some people want standards support. That, and you never know when tapo will discontinue their app, but there will probably be thread and matter ones for longer.


----------



## jowwy (2 Dec 2022)

mjr said:


> Why waste your time on boring things which can be automated? But anyway, that's why some people want standards support. That, and you never know when tapo will discontinue their app, but there will probably be thread and matter ones for longer.



But i dont want automation, i never asked for that in my post. I dont own a pc or rapsberry etc etc to run the automation on….


----------



## Regular.Cyclist (2 Dec 2022)

Bill, gas and electricity, for the last month has just come in at £81.81. It’s accurate as we have smart meters. I work from home ar 50 to 60% of the time and there is at least one washing machine cycle per day. My wife also enjoys cooking and baking so the oven gets above average use.


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## jowwy (2 Dec 2022)

Regular.Cyclist said:


> Bill, gas and electricity, for the last month has just come in at £81.81. It’s accurate as we have smart meters. I work from home ar 50 to 60% of the time and there is at least one washing machine cycle per day. My wife also enjoys cooking and baking so the oven gets above average use.



At what unit rate??? And standing charge?..


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## Ming the Merciless (2 Dec 2022)

mjr said:


> At what external temperature? That can make a difference.



3C


----------



## Regular.Cyclist (2 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> At what unit rate??? And standing charge?..





Regular.Cyclist said:


> Ouch!
> 
> I was fortunate and got onto a 2 year fixed deal just before things went totally crazy.
> 
> ...


Gas is 4.87p/kWh and 19.76p per day.


----------



## jowwy (2 Dec 2022)

Regular.Cyclist said:


> Gas is 4.87p/kWh and 19.76p per day.



That makes a huge difference to what some are paying……


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## Regular.Cyclist (2 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> That makes a huge difference to what some are paying……



As I say, I was fortunate when I fixed the latest deal for two years.


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## jowwy (2 Dec 2022)

Regular.Cyclist said:


> As I say, I was fortunate when I fixed the latest deal for two years.



But in late 2023 when that runs out…..you will move to 40p/kwh electric and 15p/kwh gas. That will be the approx capped unit rate until april 2024….

so get ready for a shock in mid/late 2023


----------



## Scaleyback (2 Dec 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Take a look at your insulation. Our house drops about 1C over 9 hours before the control timed set temperature kicks the heating back in. It then only has to raise temperature 1C, then the radiators continue pumping out enough heat until the timed temp goes back to 7C (frost setting) about an hour before we go to bed.
> 
> Monthly Bills still under £80 for both gas and electric



A 1C drop over 9 hours seems extremely low but without internal and external starting temperatures surely it is meaningless ? The rate of heat loss is determined by the difference between indoor and outdoor temps and of course can be mitigated by insulation. Ergo, your 1C drop over 9 hours could be from a starting temp of outdoor 3C & indoor 4C which to me is entirely reasonable. But if the outdoor temp is 3C and the indoor 20C ? now that would be impressive.


----------



## midlife (2 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> But in late 2023 when that runs out…..you will move to 40p/kwh electric and 15p/kwh gas. That will be the approx capped unit rate until april 2024….
> 
> so get ready for a shock in mid/late 2023



Until then he's paid £5k less than me for energy, I wouldn't mind that shock lol


----------



## Regular.Cyclist (2 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> But in late 2023 when that runs out…..you will move to 40p/kwh electric and 15p/kwh gas. That will be the approx capped unit rate until april 2024….
> 
> so get ready for a shock in mid/late 2023



I’m well aware and unconcerned. We live well within our means at present and have done the projections.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (2 Dec 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> A 1C drop over 9 hours seems extremely low but without internal and external starting temperatures surely it is meaningless ? The rate of heat loss is determined by the difference between indoor and outdoor temps and of course can be mitigated by insulation. Ergo, your 1C drop over 9 hours could be from a starting temp of outdoor 3C & indoor 4C which to me is entirely reasonable. But if the outdoor temp is 3C and the indoor 20C ? now that would be impressive.



Indoor 18C, outdoor 3C


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## jowwy (2 Dec 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Indoor 18C, outdoor 3C



So were does the 7c frost protection boost come in then on your original post if your house is 20c……


----------



## jowwy (2 Dec 2022)

midlife said:


> Until then he's paid £5k less than me for energy, I wouldn't mind that shock lol



But hes going to paying a lot more than he is now, thats the shock im getting at….

and is he paying 5k less than you???? If his bills are £80 for next 10mths lets say, thats £800…..Are you saying you dual fuel bill for that same period is £5800 or £580 a month

or are you saying over his 2yr fixed period???


----------



## Regular.Cyclist (2 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> But hes going to paying a lot more than he is now, thats the shock im getting at….


It is only a shock if you are not expecting it. 🙂

I’m in a very comfortable position at the moment and will still be in one even with the protected rates at the end of 2023 and into 2024.

I’m aware I am fortunate and have standing orders going off to a number of good causes each month as a result.


----------



## jowwy (2 Dec 2022)

Regular.Cyclist said:


> It is only a shock if you are not expecting it. 🙂
> 
> I’m in a very comfortable position at the moment and will still be in one even with the protected rates at the end of 2023 and into 2024.
> 
> I’m aware I am fortunate and have standing orders going off to a number of good causes each month as a result.



Good on you for doing that…….but even at those rates, your usage is very low and well below the average.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (2 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> So were does the 7c frost protection boost come in then on your original post if your house is 20c……



During daytime and overnight if temp (in house) drops below 7C then heating will kick in. My house is not at 20c. Since temp never drops that low at those times heating doesn’t kick in.


----------



## jowwy (2 Dec 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> During daytime and overnight if temp (in house) drops below 7C then heating will kick in. My house is not at 20c. Since temp never drops that low at those times heating doesn’t kick in.



So how low does your household temp go then?…


----------



## Ming the Merciless (2 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> So how low does your household temp go then?…



Lowest I’ve seen it drop is 16C past couple of weeks.


----------



## Regular.Cyclist (2 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> Good on you for doing that…….but even at those rates, your usage is very low and well below the average.



Modern, energy efficient, home helps.


----------



## jowwy (2 Dec 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Lowest I’ve seen it drop is 16C past couple of weeks.



And your happy sitting around in those temps ????


----------



## jowwy (2 Dec 2022)

Regular.Cyclist said:


> Modern, energy efficient, home helps.



But your electric is low??? The above helps with heating i agree.


----------



## Scaleyback (2 Dec 2022)

My stats on 18.5C 06:30 - 21:30. Comfortable with an extra jumper on.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (2 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> And your happy sitting around in those temps ????



Well half of that occurs overnight, boost when we get up, then it slowly dips during day till heating gives it a boost again for the evening. But yeah I’m happy at 16-17C during the day, nice fleecy jumper. I’m usually out for a couple of hours on bike some point during day. Always feel warm after I get back in. I’m rarely Sat still for longer than 30 mins at a time and moving around in house I don’t feel cold when I sit down again.


----------



## jowwy (2 Dec 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> My stats on 18.5C 06:30 - 21:30. Comfortable with an extra jumper on.



Same here……-+1/2 degree


----------



## midlife (2 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> But hes going to paying a lot more than he is now, thats the shock im getting at….
> 
> and is he paying 5k less than you???? If his bills are £80 for next 10mths lets say, thats £800…..Are you saying you dual fuel bill for that same period is £5800 or £580 a month
> 
> or are you saying over his 2yr fixed period???



Circa £3000 for oil and £2000 a year for electric was the expected cost this year judging by use over the last coupe of years....

Been on a strict energy diet like most on here so going to see what this year brings.......


----------



## jowwy (2 Dec 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Well half of that occurs overnight, boost when we get up, then it slowly dips during day till heating gives it a boost again for the evening. But yeah I’m happy at 16-17C during the day, nice fleecy jumper. I’m usually out for a couple of hours on bike some point during day. Always feel warm after I get back in.



What boost, you say your heating doesnt come on at all unless below 7c…..so whats boosting the temperature?..


----------



## jowwy (2 Dec 2022)

midlife said:


> Circa £3000 for oil and £2000 a year for electric was the expected cost this year judging by use over the last coupe of years....
> 
> Been on a strict energy diet like most on here so going to see what this year brings.......



Right so not an apples for apples comparison then…..but yeh still expensive

and over two years thats around 8k more based on his £80 dual fuel bill currently, which would be approx £960 for the year


----------



## Regular.Cyclist (2 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> But your electric is low??? The above helps with heating i agree.



156.3 kWh used in the last month so I guess it possibly is.

All lighting has been changed over to LED and lights are set to switch off when there is no one in a room. Mostly everything else used is at the more efficient end of their energy rating.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (2 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> What boost, you say your heating doesnt come on at all unless below 7c…..so whats boosting the temperature?..



No the control you can set minimum temperatures for about 5 periods during each day. We have it set to 7C overnight and 7C during day, hence it doesn’t come on. We have it set to min of 17.5C, from 5am till 7am and min of 17.5C from 4:45pm till 9:30pm.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (2 Dec 2022)

It also has a holiday mode so when away for a few days it’s just set to a minimum of 7C whilst we’re away. Stop any burst pipes etc if a sustained cold snap hits.


----------



## jowwy (2 Dec 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> No the control you can set minimum temperatures for about 5 periods during each day. We have it set to 7C overnight and 7C during day, hence it doesn’t come on. We have it set to min of 17.5C, from 5am till 7am and min of 17.5C from 4:45pm till 9:30pm.



That makes more sense now……


----------



## jowwy (2 Dec 2022)

Regular.Cyclist said:


> 156.3 kWh used in the last month so I guess it possibly is.
> 
> All lighting has been changed over to LED and lights are set to switch off when there is no one in a room. Mostly everything else used is at the more efficient end of their energy rating.



Thats still only 5kwh a day, which is pretty low, especially as your wife likes to bake as you say…..you got any solar???


----------



## Ming the Merciless (2 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> That makes more sense now……



I should add that the control sits in the hall, so in our main living spaces it will be nearer 18C or a bit more first thing and evening.


----------



## Regular.Cyclist (2 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> Thats still only 5kwh a day, which is pretty low, especially as your wife likes to bake as you say…..you got any solar???



None. Looking at the Smart Meter data it low all week and peaks at the weekend. though not at work we are seldom in at the weekend but it’s when my wife bakes.


----------



## jowwy (2 Dec 2022)

Regular.Cyclist said:


> None. Looking at the Smart Meter data it low all week and peaks at the weekend. though not at work we are seldom in at the weekend but it’s when my wife bakes.



Hey good on you for keeping it that low…..we use around 3/4kwh a day, but subsidise it with solar and i work from home and partner is retired.


----------



## jowwy (2 Dec 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> I should add that the control sits in the hall, so in our main living spaces it will be nearer 18C or a bit more first thing and evening.



Mine is set at 18.5c….so it comes on at 18c and switches off at 19c.


----------



## fossyant (2 Dec 2022)

Regular.Cyclist said:


> I’m well aware and unconcerned. We live well within our means at present and have done the projections.



We've really slashed electric use. Gas is now 3x more expensive than it was last year, electricity about double. THat's what you've got to watch.

Our gas was, on average, just £40-£45pm over the year - It's gone to over £120pm average and that's a heat efficient house and we score low on the Energy Trust.

We have two young adults who 'game' on PC's that are an energy disaster. They just don't get the cost. It's a third of our electric use - it's a nightmare - I'm sounding like my dad and FIL about it, I'm not too bothered about all the LED bulbs on lights now, but leaving a machine to idle is 200w on my sons monster machine ! General browsing etc, on a desktop is crazy - this is why is't useful getting a power monitoring plug for less than £10. At peak, the work laptops, plus two monitors and a powered hub are 40-45w, a 5th of a desktop with a gaming graphics card.


----------



## jowwy (2 Dec 2022)

fossyant said:


> We've really slashed electric use. Gas is now 3x more expensive than it was last year, electricity about double. THat's what you've got to watch.
> 
> Our gas was, on average, just £40-£45pm over the year - It's gone to over £120pm average and that's a heat efficient house and we score low on the Energy Trust.
> 
> We have two young adults who 'game' on PC's that are an energy disaster. They just don't get the cost. It's a third of our electric use - it's a nightmare - I'm sounding like my dad and FIL about it, I'm not too bothered about all the LED bulbs on lights now, but leaving a machine to idle is 200w on my sons monster machine ! General browsing etc, on a desktop is crazy - this is why is't useful getting a power monitoring plug for less than £10. At peak, the work laptops, plus two monitors and a powered hub are 40-45w, a 5th of a desktop with a gaming graphics card.



My electric is 3.3x more than last year…we was fixed at 10.1p/kwh…..now 33.47p
our gas is also 3.3x more as we was fixed at 3p/kwh…..now 10.71p

its crazy how the prices have gone….and in april its going to be circa 40p and 14p a kwh

on too of that is the increases in standard charges. My blood is boiling just typing this out.


----------



## fossyant (2 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> Mine is set at 18.5c….so it comes on at 18c and switches off at 19c.



We've got the radiators off in our room and my sons - he's got the bloody window open, ours has the main heating pipes under the floor, and only daughter's room gets cool. The bathroom has the radiator on. Downstairs it's just a big lounge rad, medium sized in the kitchen, and a tiny one in the downstairs loo. 

Heating is set around 17/18 (not digital). 

Using the conservatory is adding to heating cost, but I've no other space - the shed office currently has stuff in it from MIL's old house.

The Tapo plugs have told me the Xmas lights we have taken from MIL's house are very in-efficient - 180w for two so they will be 'retired' after use this year.


----------



## fossyant (2 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> My electric is 3.3x more than last year…we was fixed at 10.1p/kwh…..now 33.47p
> our gas is also 3.3x more as we was fixed at 3p/kwh…..now 10.71p
> 
> its crazy how the prices have gone….and in april its going to be circa 40p and 14p a kwh
> ...



It's really going to affect people badly. We can afford it, many can't and whilst I'd be happy to run a cooler house (I sleep on top of the covers in mid winter) my wife/daughter feel the cold. But we've had to really reduce use electric wise due to the cost, just because it would have been crippling. Hot tub has been off - just madness now, I'll refill and have it in use over Christmas, but that's it - the cost for a week might be about £100 given current prices - mainly for Xmas day, getting chlorine right, then having neice's kids round. 

I have a feeling the caravan site's electric will be insane next year as it's a business - we got charged about 16p a Kwh for last year, will be north of 40p, possibly double that.


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## jowwy (2 Dec 2022)

fossyant said:


> It's really going to affect people badly. We can afford it, many can't and whilst I'd be happy to run a cooler house (I sleep on top of the covers in mid winter) my wife/daughter feel the cold. But we've had to really reduce use electric wise due to the cost, just because it would have been crippling. Hot tub has been off - just madness now, I'll refill and have it in use over Christmas, but that's it - the cost for a week might be about £100 given current prices - mainly for Xmas day, getting chlorine right, then having neice's kids round.
> 
> I have a feeling the caravan site's electric will be insane next year as it's a business - we got charged about 16p a Kwh for last year, will be north of 40p, possibly double that.



Yeh agree on all that…..didnt even set our hot Tub up this year, but may do next year now we got the solar panels fitted, but not decided yet.


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## fossyant (2 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> Yeh agree on all that…..didnt even set our hot Tub up this year, but may do next year now we got the solar panels fitted, but not decided yet.



Ours is pumped up, with water full of chlorine - water temp 8c. Just need to drain down and put the pump unit inside. Chlorine doesn't disperse at lower temperatures, i.e. 20 or below. If 'hot' it does, but if not, it get's concentrated s never use a decomissioned tub for a few days until the chlorine dies down.


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## tom73 (2 Dec 2022)

fossyant said:


> It's really going to affect people badly. We can afford it, many can't and whilst I'd be happy to run a cooler house (I sleep on top of the covers in mid winter) my wife/daughter feel the cold. But we've had to really reduce use electric wise due to the cost, just because it would have been crippling. Hot tub has been off - just madness now, I'll refill and have it in use over Christmas, but that's it - the cost for a week might be about £100 given current prices - mainly for Xmas day, getting chlorine right, then having neice's kids round.
> 
> I have a feeling the caravan site's electric will be insane next year as it's a business - we got charged about 16p a Kwh for last year, will be north of 40p, possibly double that.



Your right about site fees many have and will come next year increase due to electric costs. CMC this year came back for more money on bookings months before due to costs.
More are moving to pay as you go and more are looking at moving to down to 10 amp.
We are looking at more off grid sites next year some sites are already silly money without electric increase. Your hit in the pocket at home and when you’re away just can’t win. 🙁


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## cougie uk (3 Dec 2022)

Aah the old traditional Christmas Hot Tub. 

Where would we be without that ?


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## Scaleyback (3 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> Mine is set at 18.5c….so it comes on at 18c and switches off at 19c.



That seems a very imprecise thermostat ? My Hive stat is set at 18.5C and fires the heating up when the stat falls to 18.4C and keeps the desired temp very accurately.


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## jowwy (3 Dec 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> That seems a very imprecise thermostat ? My Hive stat is set at 18.5C and fires the heating up when the stat falls to 18.4C and keeps the desired temp very accurately.



I have it set at plus/minus 5 degrees…….i like it that way


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## gbb (3 Dec 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> During daytime and overnight if temp (in house) drops below 7C then heating will kick in. My house is not at 20c. Since temp never drops that low at those times heating doesn’t kick in.



I assume you do the same as us, its not that you expect the temps dropping to Frost setting, rather thats effectively turning the heating off. House temps would never reach Frost setting anyway ( unless you took all the windows out ) Ours will drop to 14 at the lowest, generally 16 to 18 at the moment. At 14 in the morning its a bit too cold but we're often out to work within an hour so no point putting the heating on anyway.


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## Phaeton (3 Dec 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> That seems a very imprecise thermostat ? My Hive stat is set at 18.5C and fires the heating up when the stat falls to 18.4C and keeps the desired temp very accurately.



Or so the system would like you to think, I would have also thought that was a very inefficient way to use it, if it is measuring to a 10th of a degree I would have thought simply walking past it a bit quick & causing a draft would get it to trip the boiler into firing, seems a bit too precise for my liking.


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## Scaleyback (3 Dec 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Or so the system would like you to think, I would have also thought that was a very inefficient way to use it, if it is measuring to a 10th of a degree I would have thought simply walking past it a bit quick & causing a draft would get it to trip the boiler into firing, seems a bit too precise for my liking.



As always where you site your thermostat will to a greater or lesser degree affect it's response. Do you put it in a warm spot or a cold hall where the door opening causes the temp to fall. Or maybe where the sun can affect it. Lower down or higher up, always warmer higher up.
In the kitchen/diner where cooking heat trips the stat and turns off heat to the rest of the house. "walking past it a bit quick" Hmm !


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## tom73 (3 Dec 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> That seems a very imprecise thermostat ? My Hive stat is set at 18.5C and fires the heating up when the stat falls to 18.4C and keeps the desired temp very accurately.



At least yours work our won't turn off the council fitted it in the coldest part of the house it never get to temp.


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## Ming the Merciless (3 Dec 2022)

gbb said:


> I assume you do the same as us, its not that you expect the temps dropping to Frost setting, rather thats effectively turning the heating off. House temps would never reach Frost setting anyway ( unless you took all the windows out ) Ours will drop to 14 at the lowest, generally 16 to 18 at the moment. At 14 in the morning its a bit too cold but we're often out to work within an hour so no point putting the heating on anyway.



Yes exactly, it’s to stop heating kicking in at those times, but don’t expect temps to drop to the 7C frost setting.


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## rogerzilla (3 Dec 2022)

I wonder how anyone with an ASHP is going to pay the bills this winter. Using a typical UK SPF*, I make them a lot more expensive to run than a gas boiler. Has anyone got one they've run for a whole year, and what is the monthly average energy bill?

*2.45 for a reasonable installation, which probably means massive radiators or underfloor heating https://greenbusinesswatch.co.uk/do-air-source-heat-pumps-work-in-the-uk

Electricity is 3.5x the cost of gas, so the heat pump is 21% more to run assuming gas boiler efficiency of 85%...and that's before you factor in the need to keep it running all night because efficiency is hammered by trying to raise a house from cold, and the tepid hot water.


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## fossyant (3 Dec 2022)

rogerzilla said:


> I wonder how anyone with an ASHP is going to pay the bills this winter. Using a typical UK SPF*, I make them a lot more expensive to run than a gas boiler. Has anyone got one they've run for a whole year, and what is the monthly average energy bill?
> 
> *2.45 for a reasonable installation, which probably means massive radiators or underfloor heating https://greenbusinesswatch.co.uk/do-air-source-heat-pumps-work-in-the-uk
> 
> Electricity is 3.5x the cost of gas, so the heat pump is 21% more to run assuming gas boiler efficiency of 85%...and that's before you factor in the need to keep it running all night because efficiency is hammered by trying to raise a house from cold, and the tepid hot water.



I do wonder. My old Baxi gas boiler is 25 years old and still going, and we don't use much gas to heat the house. Come time to replace, I'll get a new equivalent for £2k-£3k fitted rather than £10k plus for a heat pump monstrocity that will sit outside. Heat pumps are using leccy which we've all been told to cut.


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## cougie uk (3 Dec 2022)

fossyant said:


> I do wonder. My old Baxi gas boiler is 25 years old and still going, and we don't use much gas to heat the house. Come time to replace, I'll get a new equivalent for £2k-£3k fitted rather than £10k plus for a heat pump monstrocity that will sit outside. Heat pumps are using leccy which we've all been told to cut.



At least we can generate electric cleanly and often in our own homes. 
Good luck mining for gas.


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## cyberknight (3 Dec 2022)

bit of good news 
due to the fact we get carers and disability payments for mini ck1 were just got an extra £300 this month cost of living grant


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## mjr (3 Dec 2022)

rogerzilla said:


> I wonder how anyone with an ASHP is going to pay the bills this winter. Using a typical UK SPF*, I make them a lot more expensive to run than a gas boiler. Has anyone got one they've run for a whole year, and what is the monthly average energy bill?


We've had ours just over a year now. Monthly average bill is a bit meaningless, what with prices having increased so massively over the year. It used about 3200kWh over the year, about half of which was in Dec-Feb. Efficiency was only just over 300% but I hope we will beat that comfortably this winter due to improved settings and controls following the annual service (by a better firm than the installer).



> *2.45 for a reasonable installation, which probably means massive radiators or underfloor heating https://greenbusinesswatch.co.uk/do-air-source-heat-pumps-work-in-the-uk


Firstly, that site doesn't seem to be using the usual jargon. Seasonalised Coefficient of Performance is SCoP, not SPF. Who is the site owner APB Internet of Dublin and why the heck do you view them as some sort of authority on heat pumps?

Secondly, their measurements are over a decade old.

But most importantly, the measurements on that page are for typical UK installations with a list of cockups they actually state on that page, including incorrect sizing and not using weather-compensation controls (which are legally required in Germany AIUI). 

If we only got 245% efficiency, I'd be calling in the troubleshooters. That's just not realistic for a current model.



> Electricity is 3.5x the cost of gas, so the heat pump is 21% more to run assuming gas boiler efficiency of 85%...and that's before you factor in the need to keep it running all night because efficiency is hammered by trying to raise a house from cold, and the tepid hot water.


You don't need to keep it running all night: an insulated house doesn't get cold that fast, people prefer it slightly cooler to sleep and it'll warm it up easily with good performance with a suitable ramp. It easily meets NHS guidelines for hot water temperature. How old or badly set up are the heat pumps you've used?


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## rogerzilla (4 Dec 2022)

It's good to hear from someone who's actually used one for a while. 300% would just about put the running cost on a par with an A-rated gas boiler. How much did you need to do in terms of bigger rads, pipework, underfloor heating or insulation? StrIctly speaking, the often-quoted requirement for extra insulation is a cheat because you'd get the benefit with any heating system.


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## rogerzilla (4 Dec 2022)

cougie uk said:


> At least we can generate electric cleanly and often in our own homes.
> Good luck mining for gas.


Solar panels don't work well on cold winter nights or dull days. Or are you assuming battery storage for everyone? I think it takes about 5kW of heat to keep this house ticking over on a cold day, so 560kWh of batteries would have got me through the last foggy week. That's only about eight Teslas, I think.


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## jowwy (4 Dec 2022)

And there is were a sub forum on green energy would help…….but hey ho


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## cougie uk (4 Dec 2022)

rogerzilla said:


> Solar panels don't work well on cold winter nights or dull days. Or are you assuming battery storage for everyone? I think it takes about 5kW of heat to keep this house ticking over on a cold day, so 560kWh of batteries would have got me through the last foggy week. That's only about eight Teslas, I think.



Your foggy week lasts how long ??


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## Scaleyback (4 Dec 2022)

We live in the age of 'hyperbole' whether it is youth restoring face crème, EV's that run 300+ miles on a charge or Heat pumps that save you 'big bucks' The Advertising Standards Authority is a toothless bureaucracy that has long given up on the deluge of fanciful claims on media and in print. Believe nothing that is claimed and as always 'caveat emptor' 
Rant over.


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## SpokeyDokey (4 Dec 2022)

What's the break-even time period on an average solar install these days?


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## chris-suffolk (4 Dec 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> What's the break-even time period on an average solar install these days?



Mine was just under 6 years, but probably not average as I've had it a few years now.


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## jowwy (4 Dec 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> What's the break-even time period on an average solar install these days?


its not easy to work out unless we know current kwh usage, size of system you required, selling back to the grid, battery storage etc etc….

what i do know, is right now they are getting pricey to install and long wait times.


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## gbb (4 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> its not easy to work out unless we know current kwh usage, size of system you required, selling back to the grid, battery storage etc etc….
> 
> what i do know, is right now they are getting pricey to install and long wait times.



That may be as demand outstrips manufacturing....company I work for has had just about the entire roof decked out with panels, circa £1 million pounds worth, took a few weeks to get it all installed If companies are switching on re the energy savings and joining the clamour....


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## chris-suffolk (4 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> its not easy to work out unless we know current kwh usage, size of system you required, selling back to the grid, battery storage etc etc….



Mine was easy to calculate - just add up the FIT payments until they exceed the purchase cost - so less than 6 years. Probably less than that if I include the reduction in my electric bills, which I didn't.


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## jowwy (4 Dec 2022)

chris-suffolk said:


> Mine was easy to calculate - just add up the FIT payments until they exceed the purchase cost - so less than 6 years. Probably less than that if I include the reduction in my electric bills, which I didn't.



But theres no fit payments anymore…….

I paid £5300 for my system, which at .33p/kwh, would buy me 16,000 kwh of electricity at current prices. I use around 1800 kwh per year, so thats around 8.5yrs worth of electric…..but thats a back of fag packet calculation and not really the best way to work it out.


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## chris-suffolk (4 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> But theres no fit payments anymore…….



Yes, I know that, but the original question was 'how long is the payback'.


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## jowwy (4 Dec 2022)

chris-suffolk said:


> Yes, I know that, but the original question was 'how long is the payback'.



Which is harder to work out with no fit payments, very low grid export rates and variable size systems and usage…..


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## Chislenko (4 Dec 2022)

Submitted my electric reading the other day and we are £150 in credit.

Our usage has gone down by 350kw over the same period last year.

We brought our Halogen Cooker back from Portugal and since then we have hardly used either of the built in ovens. Previously they would have been on nearly everyday and for a lot longer than the Halogen Cooker.


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## chris-suffolk (4 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> Which is harder to work out with no fit payments, very low grid export rates and variable size systems and usage…..



Yes, agreed.

I guess one way, would be to cost out your reduction in usage based on average for (say) the last 5 years, and add on the amounts you do get for grid export.

FIT was easy, they pay (63p /kwh) regardless of whether I export it or use it myself. This year over £2700 in payments, so pay back would be quick. Guess that's why they stopped FITs.


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## jowwy (4 Dec 2022)

chris-suffolk said:


> Yes, agreed.
> 
> I guess one way, would be to cost out your reduction in usage based on average for (say) the last 5 years, and add on the amounts you do get for grid export.
> 
> FIT was easy, they pay (63p /kwh) regardless of whether I export it or use it myself. This year over £2700 in payments, so pay back would be quick. Guess that's why they stopped FITs.



Yup, currently the best fixed rate is 15p……from octopus. They do an agile rate, but no guarantee of what you get and ive only had my system around 6wks, so got no early amounts to go by.

which is did the arbritary calculations above, but not the best way to work it out really


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## rogerzilla (4 Dec 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Your foggy week lasts how long ??


Seven days.

5kW x 7 days x 16h per day.

It was foggy here all week. The sun broke through for an hour yesterday - first time since a week last Friday. It was getting dark at 2pm today!


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## mjr (4 Dec 2022)

chris-suffolk said:


> Yes, I know that, but the original question was 'how long is the payback'.


Yes, and you appear to have answered "how long was the payback?" which is interesting but different. 

Whenever I look, it usually seems to be 8-15 years with an average of 9.


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## mjr (4 Dec 2022)

rogerzilla said:


> It's good to hear from someone who's actually used one for a while. 300% would just about put the running cost on a par with an A-rated gas boiler. How much did you need to do in terms of bigger rads, pipework, underfloor heating or insulation?


Radiators generally bigger but some needed replacement anyway. Pipework only what was needed to connect the pump outside instead of a boiler inside (but the old boiler position could not be used for a new one either: the old one was melting the neighbours' gutter!) and remove the open loft tanks from the system. No underfloor (but possible in future) and insulation was already good. No mains gas here, and a heat pump beats an oil boiler hollow.



> StrIctly speaking, the often-quoted requirement for extra insulation is a cheat because you'd get the benefit with any heating system.


Indeed. You can also get gas boilers with variable flow temperature and weather compensation control, which would be more efficient than how most are used now... but one day, electric prices will be unlinked from gas and, as someone pointed out earlier, we're not likely to make gas domestically any time soon, but home electric generation will just keep improving.


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## rogerzilla (5 Dec 2022)

I think we'll try to buy somewhere where a GSHP can be installed but I'd also want a wood stove for emergencies and for raising the temperature rapidly when needed. This probably means something out of town.


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## Beebo (8 Dec 2022)

It’s bloody freezing. The lawn never lost its frost all day. 
Central heating is working hard and smart meter is already at £10 for the day and it’s only 4.30pm. I work from home so heating is on a lot when it gets cold. 
I might start turning down bedroom radiators in the day, to save a bit of cash.


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## lazybloke (8 Dec 2022)

Beebo said:


> It’s bloody freezing. The lawn never lost its frost all day.
> Central heating is working hard and smart meter is already at £10 for the day and it’s only 4.30pm. I work from home so heating is on a lot when it gets cold.
> I might start turning down bedroom radiators in the day, to save a bit of cash.



My better half wants to protect the plants in the greenhouse so she plugged in an electric heater earlier!

Have just added a smartplug to monitor things. ££££££


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## MontyVeda (8 Dec 2022)

temp on my landing thermometer was 5 degrees C yesterday. Today it's 3. Significantly warmer in the actual rooms but I've never seen the landing temp that low before!


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## tom73 (8 Dec 2022)

lazybloke said:


> My better half wants to protect the plants in the greenhouse so she plugged in an electric heater earlier!
> 
> Have just added a smartplug to monitor things. ££££££



Horticultural fleece is your friend much better and cheeper one layer will happily keep air around 3-5c above ambient. Never lost a plant yet even in real cold spells. Most don't need a warm greenhouse in winter. Heating only really works out economical if you insulate and section of part of it and heat that part only. Though condensation can be a really problem if not insulated properly.


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## Beebo (8 Dec 2022)

My dad used to have a paraffin lamp in the green house.


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## cougie uk (8 Dec 2022)

MontyVeda said:


> temp on my landing thermometer was 5 degrees C yesterday. Today it's 3. Significantly warmer in the actual rooms but I've never seen the landing temp that low before!



Good god. What house is that ? Does it have windows?


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## MontyVeda (8 Dec 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Good god. What house is that ? Does it have windows?



victorian... gable end... three floors of open space


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## cougie uk (8 Dec 2022)

MontyVeda said:


> victorian... gable end... three floors of open space



I hope you get lots of nice jumpers for Xmas!


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## lazybloke (8 Dec 2022)

tom73 said:


> Horticultural fleece is your friend much better and cheeper one layer will happily keep air around 3-5c above ambient. Never lost a plant yet even in real cold spells. Most don't need a warm greenhouse in winter. Heating only really works out economical if you insulate and section of part of it and heat that part only. Though condensation can be a really problem if not insulated properly.



Sometimes I think she has a national collection of fuscias. I know you can get hardy ones, but these aren't.
Let 'em die, I reckon! Replace them with more suitable varietiess.


Hadn't thought of fleece, but have ordered some UV-stable bubblewrap and clips to keep the greenhouse a bit more snug.
Also looking at parafin heaters. I can imagine the bubblewrap falling on it and bursting into flames. It'd be warm then....


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## tom73 (8 Dec 2022)

lazybloke said:


> Sometimes I think she has a national collection of fuscias. I know you can get hardy ones, but these aren't.
> Let 'em die, I reckon! Replace them with more suitable varietiess.
> 
> 
> ...


Big bubble wrap is best. 
With Paraffin you will need same ventilation open it’s also bad for condensation. 
Funny you should say it’s for fuscias I use to know one of the top growers and show winner. 
He used fleece and never lost any inc once having car load over night getting caught out my a late Hevesy frost. He’d covered them with fleece just in case and all was well. 
If heat is a must to keep the peace low power tube type heaters are ok you only need to keep air around them a little warmer than air temp and no more.


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## fossyant (8 Dec 2022)

Family complaining the house is cold - we've all been out all day (work/Uni) and the heating hasn't been on until 4pm. This winter is going to be expensive !


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## jowwy (8 Dec 2022)

fossyant said:


> Family complaining the house is cold - we've all been out all day (work/Uni) and the heating hasn't been on until 4pm. This winter is going to be expensive !



My other half just complained as the heating goes off at half 8…..she normally goes to bed around half 9 with the puppy and a big quilt. I sometimes think they are never happy lol


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## fossyant (8 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> My other half just complained as the heating goes off at half 8…..she normally goes to bed around half 9 with the puppy and a big quilt. I sometimes think they are never happy lol



Ours is usually off by 7 as the bedrooms are a bit warm and we've had two rooms off. Been 'told' to put the rooms 'back on' to warm up. Said I'd leave the heating on till 10 tonight.


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## tom73 (8 Dec 2022)

Just do what a conservative MP has said for civil servants turn the heating down and make them layer up save on gas.


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## MontyVeda (8 Dec 2022)

cougie uk said:


> I hope you get lots of nice jumpers for Xmas!



I'll just do the logical thing and spend as little time as possible on the landing.


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## presta (9 Dec 2022)

Phaeton said:


> if it is measuring to a 10th of a degree I would have thought simply walking past it a bit quick & causing a draft would get it to trip the boiler into firing


Not by a long chalk, it takes about 4 mins to drop by 0.1C when the heating switches off:


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## jowwy (9 Dec 2022)

fossyant said:


> Ours is usually off by 7 as the bedrooms are a bit warm and we've had two rooms off. Been 'told' to put the rooms 'back on' to warm up. Said I'd leave the heating on till 10 tonight.



I just added it to her xmas list instead lol


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## Scaleyback (9 Dec 2022)

13.2C downstairs when my CH came on at 06:30 this morning. 2 hours later it's 16.8C. Thermostat is set to 18.5C. Can almost feel 
my bank account balance decreasing.


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## jowwy (9 Dec 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> 13.2C downstairs when my CH came on at 06:30 this morning. 2 hours later it's 16.8C. Thermostat is set to 18.5C. Can almost feel
> my bank account balance decreasing.



Thats a pretty low starting temp....mine was 16c, thermo set at 18c, heating came on at 6:30am and was upto temp by 8am, but still cost me £2.25 including standing charge, 19kwh's used


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## kipster (9 Dec 2022)

Mine started at 16c got to 17.5c before the heating switched off. It's gone back on again for another hour to try and get it to 18-18.5c. 

My wife is home all day and has MS so trying to keep the house warm but not hot. 

I tried to build up a balance with the energy supplier so that we didn't have to worry too much. Fingers crossed it sees us through to March.


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## Scaleyback (9 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> Thats a pretty low starting temp....mine was 16c, thermo set at 18c, heating came on at 6:30am and was upto temp by 8am, but still cost me £2.25 including standing charge, 19kwh's used



-6C overnight here last night, and more of the same to come.


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## jowwy (9 Dec 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> -6C overnight here last night, and more of the same to come.



yeh it was -4 for us.....


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## Scaleyback (9 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> yeh it was -4 for us.....



So, you heat your house to 18C. And in overnight temps of -4 your indoor temp falls to 16C. Does your heating go off at 3 a.m ? 😄


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## Kingfisher101 (9 Dec 2022)

i feel sorry for all those people in Sheffield without heat, a mains water pipe has burst and flooded the gas network. Thousands including some in their 90s have been without any gas for nearly a week!.


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## mjr (9 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> Thats a pretty low starting temp....mine was 16c, thermo set at 18c, heating came on at 6:30am and was upto temp by 8am, but still cost me £2.25 including standing charge, 19kwh's used


Only -2c here last night and the house fell to 17c when heating came on at 0315, reached 18c at 0700 (behind the temperature target schedule, probably because of the 5 defrost cycles), cost about £1 excl standing charge, 7kWh used @ 15p (e7 night rate) to output 19kWh heat. Doesn't seem bad compared to how a lot of people are struggling, so we're lucky so far and this damp cold is probably the worst time for an ASHP.


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## gbb (10 Dec 2022)

House temp at 08.00 14c, not sure what the outside temps were but heavy Frost.
Nearly 10.00, still at 14c inside, outside -1c.

We always had a good tolerance to the cold inside but have noticed this last year we 'like' it less and less but today, dressed and feel OK.
Grandkids are coming over till tomorrow so heating will be on shortly, maybe set it to 18c.

£1000 in credit, bills for us are OK, but again and again, I feel for those that are not so lucky.

I'm going to read the meter soon, see how many units we use today.


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## gbb (10 Dec 2022)

Everything we do has a consequence is something I always think...
14c compared to some peoples house temps is very low, yet our house is quite well insulated and the heating system very efficient for a gas boiler
But because we have that tolerance to the cold, the house is never as warm as some peoples, add the fact the heating will go off at maybe 6pm, driven by the fact we can't stand an overly warm house to sleep in....consequence, the heat you put in the house during the day, almost every day...is lost.
Ironically jts always occurred to me a heat source system, pumping out a steadier and perhaps lower temperature might be better for us. But the initial installation cost, uncertainty of outcome, lack of solar panels, further cost to beef up insulation and solar simply don't make economical sense atm.


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## Ming the Merciless (10 Dec 2022)

We have the windows open overnight in bedroom. Can’t stand it being hot for sleeping, and like fresh air rather than stuffy.


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## Scaleyback (10 Dec 2022)

gbb said:


> Everything we do has a consequence is something I always think...
> 14c compared to some peoples house temps is very low, yet our house is quite well insulated and the heating system very efficient for a gas boiler
> But because we have that tolerance to the cold, the house is never as warm as some peoples, add the fact the heating will go off at maybe 6pm, driven by the fact we can't stand an overly warm house to sleep in....consequence, the heat you put in the house during the day, almost every day...is lost.
> Ironically jts always occurred to me a heat source system, pumping out a steadier and perhaps lower temperature might be better for us. But the initial installation cost, uncertainty of outcome, lack of solar panels, further cost to beef up insulation and solar simply don't make economical sense atm.



You truly must have a tolerance to the cold if your keeeping your house at 14c when you have the wherewithal to pay your energy bills comfortably. Medical opinion recommends a minimum of 18c. You are obviously not youngsters (with grandchildren). Are you aware there are physiological changes to your body including changes to blood viscosity at such low temps which carry a higher risk of blood clots and strokes especially for older people ?


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## icowden (10 Dec 2022)

gbb said:


> 14c compared to some peoples house temps is very low, yet our house is quite well insulated and the heating system very efficient for a gas boiler


Are you definitely married? I'd be divorced quite quickly if the house was that cold!! I have managed to wean down from 23c to 22c and during the day as low as 20c...


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## gbb (10 Dec 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> You truly must have a tolerance to the cold if your keeeping your house at 14c when you have the wherewithal to pay your energy bills comfortably. Medical opinion recommends a minimum of 18c. You are obviously not youngsters (with grandchildren). Are you aware there are physiological changes to your body including changes to blood viscosity at such low temps which carry a higher risk of blood clots and strokes especially for older people ?





icowden said:


> Are you definitely married? I'd be divorced quite quickly if the house was that cold!! I have managed to wean down from 23c to 22c and during the day as low as 20c...




14 is cold tbf but were both children of the 60s and 70s, coal fires, no central heating, frost on the inside of the windows when we were kids. Ironically I love heat but not at night. Normally, just dressing appropriately sorts it enough to be comfortBle5

I remember talking to someone medical about house temps...they immediately realised and said.yeah, different generation, kids today almost certainly couldn't, or wouldn't tolerate that.


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## Scaleyback (10 Dec 2022)

gbb said:


> 14 is cold tbf but were both children of the 60s and 70s, coal fires, no central heating, frost on the inside of the windows when we were kids. Ironically I love heat but not at night. Normally, just dressing appropriately sorts it enough to be comfortBle5
> 
> I remember talking to someone medical about house temps...they immediately realised and said.yeah, different generation, kids today almost certainly couldn't, or wouldn't tolerate that.



Well, I was born in 1947. No bathroom, tin bath brought into the kitchen. Outside toilet only etc etc. It has not given me, or my wife (1950) a tolerance to cold weather. Physiologically I don't believe you can 'build' a tolerance, your body will react pretty much the same as anyone else of a similar age to you. Sure you can probably tolerate suffering more than me/the next guy but that is a different subject.


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## cougie uk (10 Dec 2022)

icowden said:


> Are you definitely married? I'd be divorced quite quickly if the house was that cold!! I have managed to wean down from 23c to 22c and during the day as low as 20c...



My wife used to be very nesh. 21 degrees on the thermostat. But she had improved and realised she can wear a jumper in winter and now the thermostat in the living room is reading 15 degrees! 
It's fine if you're doing things and if you're sitting around then a blanket over the lap keeps you nice and snug. 

I'm actually surprised it's that low a temperature. I would have thought it was 18 or so. Even I'm adapting.


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## gbb (10 Dec 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> Well, I was born in 1947. No bathroom, tin bath brought into the kitchen. Outside toilet only etc etc. It has not given me, or my wife (1950) a tolerance to cold weather. Physiologically I don't believe you can 'build' a tolerance, your body will react pretty much the same as anyone else of a similar age to you. Sure you can probably tolerate suffering more than me/the next guy but that is a different subject.



Physiology must be the answer tbf, i know our grandson is pale skinned and fair haired and can't stand the heat, even at 8 or 9 years old, he has an opinion and an understanding he likes winter, doesn't like summer, purely for the heat.
Grandaughter, his half sister, darker skinned, loves summer, hates winter, just like her dad (and us)
Build a tolerance ?, ...its perhaps just being able to be tolerant to or of extremes. I don't mind a cool house yet I hate winter.
Its complicated to put into words ?..perhaps its just that we are both what we call 'burners', fast metabolism which may well help us cope.


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## Scaleyback (10 Dec 2022)

cougie uk said:


> My wife used to be very nesh. 21 degrees on the thermostat. But she had improved and realised she can wear a jumper in winter and now the thermostat in the living room is reading 15 degrees!
> It's fine if you're doing things and if you're sitting around then a blanket over the lap keeps you nice and snug.
> 
> I'm actually surprised it's that low a temperature. I would have thought it was 18 or so. Even I'm adapting


I'm beginning to feel like a ' wimp ' all these stats set at 14c and 15c ! mine is always at 18.5c. The Hive stat is in the kitchen/diner which is the coldest room therefore its always between 19c & 20c in the lounge. I have tried it lower but we end up cold and miserable so I'm going no lower. We can afford the bills so I'm not stressed but I would much sooner save/spend this money elsewhere.


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## Kingfisher101 (10 Dec 2022)

My bedroom and the bathroom is 12c and the room where the gas fire is its 24c. I've never liked central heating I find it too hot and stuffy. I also have all the windows open for a while each day because I'm not having any issue with damp or mould which a lot of people get.
It is bad at night though if you have to get up for the loo or for pets etc, my arms burn with the cold.


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## Ming the Merciless (10 Dec 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> Physiologically I don't believe you can 'build' a tolerance, your body will react pretty much the same as anyone else of a similar age to you.



That’s simply not true, you have those who are better at handling the cold and those who are better at handling the heat. Simply attend a cycling event with a large international mix and you will see everything from shorts and short sleeve jerseys and those wearing duvets and balaclavas in exactly the same temperatures and conditions.

We don’t all respond to same to cold or heat, there’s clear physiological differences.

Heat acclimation is a thing, the physiological changes understood to a degree. Why not the same to cold?


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## Kingfisher101 (10 Dec 2022)

postman said:


> in this house the heating is coming on seven while ten.Rest of the time two jumpers and a scarf plus a car blanket around the legs when sitting on the sofa.



And does your partner put up with that? I would only put up with that if I was on state benefits and had no other option.


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## wiggydiggy (10 Dec 2022)

Is there a formula or calculator anyone can share to help me calculate the cost of running an oil filled radiator?

I know it's rating (1.5Kw) and my electricity unit cost, what I'm not sure about is how to factor in what setting (high/medium/low) its on at and temperature it is set to.


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## cougie uk (10 Dec 2022)

wiggydiggy said:


> Is there a formula or calculator anyone can share to help me calculate the cost of running an oil filled radiator?
> 
> I know it's rating (1.5Kw) and my electricity unit cost, what I'm not sure about is how to factor in what setting (high/medium/low) its on at and temperature it is set to.



It's impossible to tell without a smart plug or meter. 
The max usage would be 1.5*34p per hour if it was running on high all of the time - but in practice it would heat up and switch off and then heat again when it's cooled down a bit. 

So max 50p per hour. 

What are you heating?

Something like an electric throw costs about 4p an hour to run if that could work for you.


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## wiggydiggy (10 Dec 2022)

cougie uk said:


> It's impossible to tell without a smart plug or meter.
> The max usage would be 1.5*34p per hour if it was running on high all of the time - but in practice it would heat up and switch off and then heat again when it's cooled down a bit.
> 
> So max 50p per hour.
> ...



Just my front room, I have it on the lowest setting and about 1/3 of the temp dial. The house is well insulated so retains heat quite well but this is only room been heated right now. I'll see if amazon can get me a smart plug by tomorrow.

It's 15.5c in the heated room, I'm wearing thermal undie type things as well so that's fine for me now.

Elsewhere the house is 11c in the unheated rooms, so it'll be a dash into bed later lol!


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## midlife (10 Dec 2022)

Kingfisher101 said:


> And does your partner put up with that? I would only put up with that if I was on state benefits and had no other option.



I can afford to run my heating like I used to but have better things to spend my money on so I put more clothes on and accept I'll get a bit chilly going for a pee.


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## presta (10 Dec 2022)

wiggydiggy said:


> Is there a formula or calculator anyone can share to help me calculate the cost of running an oil filled radiator?
> 
> I know it's rating (1.5Kw) and my electricity unit cost, what I'm not sure about is how to factor in what setting (high/medium/low) its on at and temperature it is set to.



Do you know what the knob does, is it a power ajustment or a thermostat? If it's the latter you'll need a meter, but if the former and a simple bimetallic timer like my cooker, you can time the duty cycle by listening to the contacts click or watching the pilot light if it has one, then just multiply the duty cycle by 1.5kW.


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## wiggydiggy (10 Dec 2022)

presta said:


> Do you know what the knob does, is it a power ajustment or a thermostat? If it's the latter you'll need a meter, but if the former and a simple bimetallic timer like my cooker, you can time the duty cycle by listening to the contacts click or watching the pilot light if it has one, then just multiply the duty cycle by 1.5kW.



Power Adjustment, not a thermostat. Have grabbed a notepad and clock to record the on time though.

I'll still be getting a smart plug tomorrow to monitor usage. The radiator normally lives in my office so it'll be used again regularly.


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## wiggydiggy (10 Dec 2022)

fossyant said:


> TP Link Tapo P110 plugs. Got 6 now. Impressed TBH. Small and dead easy to pair up. Energy monitoring good, and the app's been updated with unit price, so you pop that in and can sync it across all plugs so you enter it once. Gives current use and history. Been useful to see what the TV uses, and the heating in the conservatory - that's hitting my use at the moment - got the oil radiator on pretty low, and just boost the heat with a fan heater first thing. The radiator is cycling through 900w but you can see it's actually on about 30 minutes in every 60.



Obvious question but if I buy these do I need to get the ones that come with 'Energy Monitoring' and not the slightly cheaper 'Smart Plug' ones? 

Also can add more of the same plugs later, or have to rder as many as I need right now?


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## Phaeton (10 Dec 2022)

wiggydiggy said:


> Also can add more of the same plugs later, or have to rder as many as I need right now?



As long as you buy the same kind you can add more later


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## Kingfisher101 (10 Dec 2022)

postman said:


> in this house the heating is coming on six while ten.Rest of the time two jumpers and a scarf plus a car blanket around the legs when sitting on the sofa.I will add there is a boost for a short while in the afternoon.So its not that bad.



You say on here that you are ill sometimes? Sitting in freezing conditions isnt very good when you have health issues. The council have warm hubs where you can sit during the day for free if this helps you?


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## postman (10 Dec 2022)

Kingfisher101 said:


> You say on here that you are ill sometimes? Sitting in freezing conditions isnt very good when you have health issues. The council have warm hubs where you can sit during the day for free if this helps you?


i hope i have not given the wrong impression i sound like Scrooge far from it.So i have deleted my previous comments.


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## classic33 (10 Dec 2022)

postman said:


> i hope i have not given the wrong impression i sound like Scrooge far from it.So i have deleted my previous comments.


Sorry you felt you had to delete them.
You've as much right as anyone else to post what you do/feel.


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## Phaeton (10 Dec 2022)

Kingfisher101 said:


> You say on here that you are ill sometimes? Sitting in freezing conditions isnt very good when you have health issues. The council have warm hubs where you can sit during the day for free if this helps you?


12-18 degrees is hardly freezing


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## Kingfisher101 (10 Dec 2022)

Phaeton said:


> 12-18 degrees is hardly freezing



12ish is pretty cold when you are not very well or very elderly etc to sit in all day. I know because my bathroom is about that (12) and its bad enough going to to toilet etc.
I was just saying theres help there for people who are struggling and also no one ever really knows about others difficulties/finances.


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## classic33 (10 Dec 2022)

Kingfisher101 said:


> 12ish is pretty cold when you are not very well or very elderly etc to sit in all day. I know because my bathroom is about that (12) and its bad enough going to to toilet etc.
> I was just saying theres help there for people who are struggling and also no one ever really knows about others difficulties/finances.


It's currently 12°C in the room I'm sat in. There's health issues to contend with, for me, but non of them can be affected by it being too hot or too cold. It gets cold, I'll shut the window.

I've worked inside, where it was often in 50+°C and outside where the current still air temperatures had windchill factored in, lowering them a fair bit further. Neither extreme seems to bother me. 

We're all different, and we all react differently to the same conditions. And some of us are too polite to tell others what we think about what's been said.


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## fossyant (11 Dec 2022)

wiggydiggy said:


> Obvious question but if I buy these do I need to get the ones that come with 'Energy Monitoring' and not the slightly cheaper 'Smart Plug' ones?
> 
> Also can add more of the same plugs later, or have to rder as many as I need right now?



Just get what you need. You don't need the energy monitoring ones, unless you want to monitor use. Just add plugs/lightbulbs etc as and when you want to.


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## Kingfisher101 (11 Dec 2022)

classic33 said:


> It's currently 12°C in the room I'm sat in. There's health issues to contend with, for me, but non of them can be affected by it being too hot or too cold. It gets cold, I'll shut the window.
> 
> I've worked inside, where it was often in 50+°C and outside where the current still air temperatures had windchill factored in, lowering them a fair bit further. Neither extreme seems to bother me.
> 
> We're all different, and we all react differently to the same conditions. *And some of us are too polite to tell others what we think about what's been said.*


O.K thats what you think and thats you. Some people are really struggling and dont know where to go for help or what to do. I'd rather explain the options and let them decide for themselves. You do know that every year in the U.K many people die from the cold? This predominantly affects the elderly who struggle with self regulating their temperature. Theres plenty of elderly people on this board.Many people are too proud to say they are really suffering harship.


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## gzoom (11 Dec 2022)

This week, I would say it has been the first 'proper' week of winter, and the first proper week since last winter, the boiler has been literally burning cash. Essentially £20/day in heating, so £600/month roughly for Dec-Jan. Bare in mind current gas prices are 'capped', uncapped/market rates are close to 25p/kWh for gas, so £50/day at current usage!!!!

Its our choice/fault for choosing to live in an unnecessary big house. As ever £££ will end up the biggest lever for change in consumer spending. £50/day is gas.....we'll be moving to somewhere smaller/more efficient for energy!!


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## johnnyb47 (11 Dec 2022)

Just had my quarterly bill for the gas and electric. Opened it very gingerly expecting to see a bank busting bill inside, but it wasn't too bad. £266 ,but baring in mind the Governments energy help was included into that ( something of around £66 a month) to which amounted £200.
Last year my bill was £ 285 ,so I could say the governments help has cancelled out the energy price increase for me personally.


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## mjr (11 Dec 2022)

fossyant said:


> Just get what you need. You don't need the energy monitoring ones, unless you want to monitor use. Just add plugs/lightbulbs etc as and when you want to.


I thought the point was to monitor use of an oil rad?


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## Scaleyback (11 Dec 2022)

johnnyb47 said:


> Just had my quarterly bill for the gas and electric. Opened it very gingerly expecting to see a bank busting bill inside, but it wasn't too bad. £266 ,but baring in mind the Governments energy help was included into that ( something of around £66 a month) to which amounted £200.
> Last year my bill was £ 285 ,so I could say the governments help has cancelled out the energy price increase for me personally.



Thats a quarterly bill ?  Mine will be of that order for the month Nov14 - Dec 15.


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## wiggydiggy (11 Dec 2022)

mjr said:


> I thought the point was to monitor use of an oil rad?



That's right, though I've decided not to buy them immediately. I'll take the hit of running the rad for a couple days until new boiler, and then in the new year have a good look at all energy monitoring systems. Might even ask for smart meters!


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## cyberknight (11 Dec 2022)

started using stick up rechargeable motion sensor lights in the hall/landing , my question being as they take about 2 hours per week to charge are they saving much compared to leaving the landing light on all night ? I say yes but i havent the math to work it out


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## johnnyb47 (11 Dec 2022)

Yes I was quite surprised to. The house I live in is really old dating back to the late 1890s with small windows and low ceilings (you have to duck your head through doors otherwise you'll knock yourself out)
I think having low ceilings help towards lower energy savings as there less room to heat.
Also I've been using an electric throw to keep warm at night in front of the tv,and have the central heating low to around 16 degrees. I think the electric throw which I bought from Argos costs around 2.5 pence an hour on it's lowest setting which does me just fine.
Another great way to keep warm (and is cycling related) is that I'm using the turbo trainer in the kitchen..I'm not enjoying cycling outside at the moment after work and in the dark, so I've resorted to the dreaded Turbo trainer to keep the legs spinning. Warm as toast whilst doing the Tour de back kitchen ( but mind numbingly boring)


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## Scaleyback (11 Dec 2022)

johnnyb47 said:


> Yes I was quite surprised to. The house I live in is really old dating back to the late 1890s with small windows and low ceilings (you have to duck your head through doors otherwise you'll knock yourself out)
> I think having low ceilings help towards lower energy savings as there less room the heat.
> Also I've been using an electric throw to keep warm at night in front of the tv,and have the central heating low to around 16 degrees. I think the electric throw which I bought from Argos costs around 2.5 pence an hour on it's lowest setting which does me just fine.
> Another great way to keep warm (and is cycling related) is that I'm using the turbo trainer in the kitchen..I'm not enjoying cycling outside at the moment after work and in the dark, so I've resorted to the dreaded Turbo trainer to keep the legs spinning. Warm as toast whilst doing the Tour de back kitchen ( but mind numbingly boring)



Well done to you. I'm not envious (well maybe a little )


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## johnnyb47 (11 Dec 2022)

The only problem with having the Turbo trainer in the kitchen is that the Guinness is within reach whilst I'm peddling for Britain. A can somehow manages to find it's way into my water bottle cage 🤔


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## gavroche (11 Dec 2022)

I have taken a meter reading today before putting on the central heating and will take another reading tomorrow morning, to give me an idea on the daily cost. The central heating didn't come on till 2pm and will go off at about 9.30 pm. It is set on 18 degrees.


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## Kingfisher101 (11 Dec 2022)

wiggydiggy said:


> Is there a formula or calculator anyone can share to help me calculate the cost of running an oil filled radiator?
> 
> I know it's rating (1.5Kw) and my electricity unit cost, what I'm not sure about is how to factor in what setting (high/medium/low) its on at and temperature it is set to.



We've got one and Its 5 fins I think and having it on number 2 its 37p per hour.Thats medium as there are 3 settings.


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## jowwy (12 Dec 2022)

another energy saving session with octopus this evening. This time its a 2hr slot between 5 and 7


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## Phaeton (12 Dec 2022)

Currently as they can't read my Electric meter they are paying us the average saving on each occasio


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## fossyant (12 Dec 2022)

gzoom said:


> This week, I would say it has been the first 'proper' week of winter, and the first proper week since last winter, the boiler has been literally burning cash. Essentially £20/day in heating, so £600/month roughly for Dec-Jan. Bare in mind current gas prices are 'capped', uncapped/market rates are close to 25p/kWh for gas, so £50/day at current usage!!!!
> 
> Its our choice/fault for choosing to live in an unnecessary big house. As ever £££ will end up the biggest lever for change in consumer spending. £50/day is gas.....we'll be moving to somewhere smaller/more efficient for energy!!
> 
> View attachment 670769



That's an incredible amount of gas, I've been about 55KWh each day this week


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## jowwy (12 Dec 2022)

fossyant said:


> That's an incredible amount of gas, I've been about 55KWh each day this week



we are around 48kwh a day at the moment....wouldnt have made a mark at last years 3p a kilowatt, but at 10.7p, its a different story


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## fossyant (12 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> we are around 48kwh a day at the moment....wouldnt have made a mark at last years 3p a kilowatt, but at 10.7p, its a different story



Exactly - a bad month would have been £60 of gas, it's 3x that now.


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## jowwy (12 Dec 2022)

fossyant said:


> Exactly - a bad month would have been £60 of gas, it's 3x that now.



its criminal what we are being charged.....


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## mjr (12 Dec 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Currently as they can't read my Electric meter they are paying us the average saving on each occasio


Meanwhile, they seem to be reading mine fine but say they can't and won't pay us. I've escalated it a bit further today.


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## mjr (12 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> its criminal what we are being charged.....


What crime do you think it is? It's what people voted for (allegedly, in the case of Russia). I say no more or we're off to NACA.


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## classic33 (12 Dec 2022)

mjr said:


> What crime do you think it is? It's what people voted for (allegedly, in the case of Russia). I say no more or we're off to NACA.


Less than 5% of gas used in the UK comes from overseas.


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## jowwy (12 Dec 2022)

mjr said:


> What crime do you think it is? It's what people voted for (allegedly, in the case of Russia). I say no more or we're off to NACA.



i never voted for increased gas and elec prices....when was this vote taken place??? this is to do with my household bills...nothing to do with NACA


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## PaulSB (12 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> its criminal what we are being charged.....



It's far from criminal and results from a combination of privatised energy supply (people effectively voted for this), supply and demand pressures, war in Ukraine, government failure to invest in UK energy supply and a lack of initiatives to insulate homes making them as energy efficient as possible.

The big question we all have to ask ourselves is why have we been so profligate with energy until six months ago?


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## jowwy (12 Dec 2022)

i think people have taken the word criminal as literal here, rather than a figure of speech....never mind hey.


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## Scaleyback (12 Dec 2022)

classic33 said:


> Less than 5% of gas used in the UK comes from overseas.



Where do you get those figures please ?
Quote
Natural gas piped from the North Sea and the East Irish Sea to refineries on land makes up 44% of the UK's gas production. *Around 47%* of the UK's gas supply now comes from across Europe - predominantly Norway, Netherlands, Belgium, and Russia - through long distance pipelines.26 Aug 2022
Unquote


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## Alex321 (12 Dec 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> Where do you get those figures please ?
> Quote
> Natural gas piped from the North Sea and the East Irish Sea to refineries on land makes up 44% of the UK's gas production. *Around 47%* of the UK's gas supply now comes from across Europe - predominantly Norway, Netherlands, Belgium, and Russia - through long distance pipelines.26 Aug 2022
> Unquote



To be pedantically literal, he said from "overseas", while those long distance pipelines are "underseas"


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## mjr (12 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> i never voted for increased gas and elec prices....when was this vote taken place??? this is to do with my household bills...nothing to do with NACA


Arguably every election since 1987's, but most significantly 2010 ( further deregulation), 2017 (flawed price cap system) and 2019 ( not dealing with the flaws even as the brown stuff was visibly heading to the fan).

You may not have voted for any of those, but "the people" did.


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## jowwy (12 Dec 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> Where do you get those figures please ?
> Quote
> Natural gas piped from the North Sea and the East Irish Sea to refineries on land makes up 44% of the UK's gas production. *Around 47%* of the UK's gas supply now comes from across Europe - predominantly Norway, Netherlands, Belgium, and Russia - through long distance pipelines.26 Aug 2022
> Unquote



yeh its less than 5% from russia......


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## fossyant (12 Dec 2022)

The stuff from Qatar comes in to Milford Haven by ship and is then piped into Gloucestershire. The company I worked for at the time built the pipeline - some amazing engineering going on.


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## jowwy (12 Dec 2022)

So less than 4% from russia.....


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## icowden (12 Dec 2022)

gzoom said:


> This week, I would say it has been the first 'proper' week of winter, and the first proper week since last winter, the boiler has been literally burning cash. Essentially £20/day in heating, so £600/month roughly for Dec-Jan. Bare in mind current gas prices are 'capped', uncapped/market rates are close to 25p/kWh for gas, so £50/day at current usage!!!!


We've managed to use 2132kwh over the last month, so 71kwh per day on gas. 😢 Up to £12 per day now.
I'm paying similar to you - £620 over the last month, but most of it is leccy. The Car has pushed the cost up, but I'm not paying £200+ on diesel each month, so trying to see the positive.


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## Alex321 (12 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> View attachment 670868
> 
> So less than 4% from russia.....



Yes, but the Russia "problem" has caused demand from everywhere else to be much higher, thus pushing up prices worldwide, even if very little of what we buy actually comes from Russia.


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## Scaleyback (12 Dec 2022)

icowden said:


> We've managed to use 2132kwh over the last month, so 71kwh per day on gas. 😢 Up to £12 per day now.
> I'm paying similar to you - £620 over the last month, but most of it is leccy. The Car has pushed the cost up, but I'm not paying £200+ on diesel each month, so trying to see the positive.



Over the last 24 hrs (to 09:30 this a.m) we used 75Kwh of gas, that is on a par with your 2132kwh last month. 3 bed 1983 detached, dble glazed, cav wall. We are in rural North Yorkshire (brrr!) Unusual weather conditions (as with much of the UK) 12 noon today still -3C (freezing fog) I keep my Stat at 18.5C 06:00 - 21:30. Stat is in the coldest room so the lounge is usually 20c minimum. We are certainly warm enough and I 'feel' for anyone who wants more warmth but cannot afford it.


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## jowwy (12 Dec 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Yes, but the Russia "problem" has caused demand from everywhere else to be much higher, thus pushing up prices worldwide, even if very little of what we buy actually comes from Russia.



i agree........it hasnt helped, but its time we uncoupled electric and gas prices and started using and paying for more green energy from suppliers via wind, solar, hydro etc etc..


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## Kingfisher101 (12 Dec 2022)

The gas prices were going up way, way before the war in the Ukraine anyway. Even if there were a ceasefire tomorrow I think the high prices are here to stay for a while yet.


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## PaulSB (12 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> i think people have taken the word criminal as literal here, rather than a figure of speech....never mind hey.



Nope, I knew it was a figure of speech but it is still far from criminal, simply a result of the points I listed.


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## PaulSB (12 Dec 2022)

I took our meter readings this morning and I'm delighted to find consumption gas is down 20% from the same period last year. 2021 - 2002kWh with 2022 at 1625 for the past month. Still looking at £168 for the month but that reduction is worth +/- £35. Electricity is down 11% from 256kWh to 227kWh so a saving worth +/- £12.50.

For our first challenging month we've reduced consumption saving, at today's prices, +/-£47.50. Excellent result and a decent reward for our efforts to date


----------



## Scaleyback (12 Dec 2022)

PaulSB said:


> I took our meter readings this morning and I'm delighted to find consumption gas is down 20% from the same period last year. 2021 - 2002kWh with 2022 at 1625 for the past month. Still looking at £168 for the month but that reduction is worth +/- £35. Electricity is down 11% from 256kWh to 227kWh so a saving worth +/- £12.50.
> 
> For our first challenging month we've reduced consumption saving, at today's prices, +/-£47.50. Excellent result and a decent reward for our efforts to date



Well done Paul. I don't think I'm going to save much over period for this month nov15-dec14 2022 over same period last year but I'm putting that down to the bitterly cold weather we are experiencing at the moment. I hope to see a bigger saving Dec15-Jan14 2023 . . . weather permitting.


----------



## gzoom (12 Dec 2022)

fossyant said:


> That's an incredible amount of gas, I've been about 55KWh each day this week



It's all physics at the end of the day, we have roughly 2700sqft of living space, add in poor insulation and 200kWh a day heating at present isn't a susprise.

It's totally our choice to live where we are, but I feel very lucky to be able to live in house we are in now!


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## jowwy (13 Dec 2022)

Have to be honest, its been damn cold the last few days.......heating been on quit a bit, but aint no way im freezing my ninnies off


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## Scaleyback (13 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> Have to be honest, its been damn cold the last few days.......heating been on quit a bit, but aint no way im freezing my ninnies off



Tell me about it ! forecast below freezing all day here . . . again. -5c ( feels like -8 ) from 6pm and overnight.


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## jowwy (13 Dec 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> Tell me about it ! forecast below freezing all day here . . . again. -5c ( feels like -8 ) from 6pm and overnight.



it was -2 outside temp most of the day yesterday and dropped to -4 overnight..........looks like freezing fog all day again today and tonight. Drops even lower wednesday night and into thursday

How do you lower your heating/gas usage in these temperatures.....

Today





Tomorrow


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## Scaleyback (13 Dec 2022)

'jowwy' said 
" How do you lower your heating/gas usage in these temperatures..... "
Only two ways I know, turn heating down/off or increase insulation.


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## jowwy (13 Dec 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> 'jowwy' said
> " How do you lower your heating/gas usage in these temperatures..... "
> Only two ways I know, turn heating down/off or increase insulation.



we insulated upto the gills.......no way i'm turning the heating down this week lol


----------



## Chislenko (13 Dec 2022)

Just slightly off topic...

Has anybody on here been moved to British Gas "New System" and found a way to access it online.?

When you get moved to their "new system" your account number changes from numeric to starting with a Letter and It doesn't recognise Letters. 

As per most websites of large companies the FAQ's do not answer the question neither do the Bots.

I have filled out their online enquiry form but "It could take 21 days for one of our team to respond"


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## Scaleyback (13 Dec 2022)

Chislenko said:


> I have filled out their online enquiry form but "It could take 21 days for one of our team to respond"



Try cancelling your Direct debit, that will get their attention quickly.


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## Chislenko (13 Dec 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> Try cancelling your Direct debit, that will get their attention quickly.



Must admit if I don't get a satisfactory outcome I may just go dual fuel with Scottish Power.


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## jowwy (13 Dec 2022)

Chislenko said:


> Must admit if I don't get a satisfactory outcome I may just go dual fuel with Scottish Power.



that switch may not be wise, as yo may not be protected by the unit price cap......as your switching at your own will


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## Scaleyback (13 Dec 2022)

In Todays ' I '

Octopus pays £1m to customers.
Octopus said more than 250,000 households who have taken part in a scheme where they can earn money for reducing electricity consumption have been paid an average of £4 each.
Well, as the lady who wee'd in the sea said, " every little helps "


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## Alex321 (13 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> that switch may not be wise, as yo may not be protected by the unit price cap......as your switching at your own will



You are always protected by the unit price cap if you are on the "standard" tariff of that supplier. Regardless of switching, whether of your own will or otherwise.


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## PaulSB (13 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> How do you lower your heating/gas usage in these temperatures.....



We had a 20% consumption drop November 10th to December 11th so this includes 5 days of the very low temperatures.

Yes, we have turned down the thermostat but there are many other ways to reduce gas consumption which we've religiously practiced. Most are very small and I've been surprised by the overall impact.


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## jowwy (13 Dec 2022)

But they wont put you on the standard tariff…..if you choose to switch the standard tariff wont be available…..its what happened with me and octopus


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## jowwy (13 Dec 2022)

PaulSB said:


> We had a 20% consumption drop November 10th to December 11th so this includes 5 days of the very low temperatures.
> 
> Yes, we have turned down the thermostat but there are many other ways to reduce gas consumption which we've religiously practiced. Most are very small and I've been surprised by the overall impact.



How low in temps are we talking here and do you have a disabled partner in the house???


----------



## Alex321 (13 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> But they wont put you on the standard tariff…..if you choose to switch the standard tariff wont be available…..its what happened with me and octopus



Most will. I believe they are legally required to offer it. 
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/n...l-be-required-to-make-tariffs-available-to-b/

Of course you & I won't be on the standard tariff because it doesn't make sense for us with solar power.


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## chris-suffolk (13 Dec 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Of course you & I won't be on the standard tariff because it doesn't make sense for us with solar power.



I've got solar, would be interested as to why the standard isn't the best for me at the moment?


----------



## jowwy (13 Dec 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Most will. I believe they are legally required to offer it.
> https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/n...l-be-required-to-make-tariffs-available-to-b/
> 
> Of course you & I won't be on the standard tariff because it doesn't make sense for us with solar power.



I am on the standard capped tarrif…….


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## PaulSB (13 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> How low in temps are we talking here and do you have a disabled partner in the house???



Our thermostat is set at 19⁰C, no I don't have a disabled partner. We've had wood burner for 25+ years so it's use is not new. The point I was trying to make, as you asked how to reduce consumption in these temperatures, is there are other ways to reduce consumption. Some examples, you may think me daft, and I could well be, but I believe this has made a contribution. Gas is down by 20% and electric 11% in this house, some things apply to gas, others electric. I tried to find as many small efficiencies as possible which don't directly impact day to day living 

Changing clothes less often, we now use the washing machine twice a week - one white and one coloured wash.

Reduce hot water flow to hand hot, no longer adding cold

⅓ fill washing up bowl. Clean down surfaces with this water before washing dishes. Probably saving a minimum of four bowls/day.

Shower every other day

Every door to every room is kept shut

I'm wearing a padded gilet under a heavyish fleece. It's possible all of this is wasted effort but I believe at the very least it is keeping energy use at the front of our minds.


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## Scaleyback (13 Dec 2022)

PaulSB said:


> Our thermostat is set at 19⁰C, no I don't have a disabled partner. We've had wood burner for 25+ years so it's use is not new. The point I was trying to make, as you asked how to reduce consumption in these temperatures, is there are other ways to reduce consumption. Some examples, you may think me daft, and I could well be, but I believe this has made a contribution. Gas is down by 20% and electric 11% in this house, some things apply to gas, others electric. I tried to find as many small efficiencies as possible which don't directly impact day to day living
> 
> Changing clothes less often, we now use the washing machine twice a week - one white and one coloured wash.
> 
> ...



All sensible to me. 
If your running your stat at 19C and still managing to save 20% gas, I would ask what did you use to set your Stat at ? 
Also, I'm surprised you need a " padded gilet under a heavyish fleece " if your house is kept at 19c. During present times many people would sell their granny to be that warm.


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## jowwy (13 Dec 2022)

PaulSB said:


> Our thermostat is set at 19⁰C, no I don't have a disabled partner. We've had wood burner for 25+ years so it's use is not new. The point I was trying to make, as you asked how to reduce consumption in these temperatures, is there are other ways to reduce consumption. Some examples, you may think me daft, and I could well be, but I believe this has made a contribution. Gas is down by 20% and electric 11% in this house, some things apply to gas, others electric. I tried to find as many small efficiencies as possible which don't directly impact day to day living
> 
> Changing clothes less often, we now use the washing machine twice a week - one white and one coloured wash.
> 
> ...



To be honest paul, my use is pretty low as it is…..less than 50kwh a day on gas and less than 4kwh a day on electric. I cant get it any lower, i even have solar to offset the electric use and i export solar to the grid to lower my bills….

my comment on how do you get to lower usage in these temps, was because ive gone as low as i and my disabled partner can cope with. As for adding wood burner or insulation etc etc, that would add to current out goings and take a whole load of payback time.


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## postman (13 Dec 2022)

johnnyb47 said:


> The only problem with having the Turbo trainer in the kitchen is that the Guinness is within reach whilst I'm peddling for Britain. A can somehow manages to find it's way into my water bottle cage 🤔


today tuesday i found somerhing different.Twelve Days a Porter at WetherspoonsI am not sure how they would manage with a sweaty cyclist on a turbo at the bar,but it is a verrrrrry nice drink.I had five before i liked it.


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## PaulSB (13 Dec 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> All sensible to me.
> If your running your stat at 19C and still managing to save 20% gas, I would ask what did you use to set your Stat at ?
> Also, I'm surprised you need a " padded gilet under a heavyish fleece " if your house is kept at 19c. During present times many people would sell their granny to be that warm.



We live in a stone cottage, built 1845, and insulation is minimal so while the walls retain some heat maintaining 19⁰ throughout the property would be very expensive. The CH only runs 07.45 - 9.00 and 18.00 - 20.00. Thermostat is in the front room with door shut so once that room hits 19⁰ the heating shuts down - we watch TV here at night. Bedrooms, bathrooms, kitchen, utility room are all at much lower temperatures with thermostatic valves turned down. The idea is to take the edge off the cold, as I'm in and out of the colder rooms I need the gilet/fleece combination.

The woodburner is in the back room and keeps that room very comfortable and this is where we live during the day.

As pensioners this is how we've found ways to cope with potentially huge energy bills. I appreciate our arrangements won't work for many households but believe it's about being creative and I think this is what I've done.

Loads of other stuff! After using the oven leave the door open. After boiling potatoes, drain water into a jug and use this for other veg etc. I have a very long list.


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## PaulSB (13 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> To be honest paul, my use is pretty low as it is…..less than 50kwh a day on gas and less than 4kwh a day on electric. I cant get it any lower, i even have solar to offset the electric use and i export solar to the grid to lower my bills….
> 
> my comment on how do you get to lower usage in these temps, was because ive gone as low as i and my disabled partner can cope with. As for adding wood burner or insulation etc etc, that would add to current out goings and take a whole load of payback time.



Yes, I appreciate your difficulty, in every way, one of my sons has Downs - he lives at his own house with three other lads, the bills are incredible, probably looking at £7000 pa for energy now. We use about 60 kWh/day on gas, I haven't calculated the electric. As a pensioner my comments are really only about how we've saved energy which might be interesting or helpful to others.

My target has been to reduce usage with minimal impact on our daily lives.


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## jowwy (13 Dec 2022)

PaulSB said:


> Yes, I appreciate your difficulty, in every way, one of my sons has Downs - he lives at his own house with three other lads, the bills are incredible, probably looking at £7000 pa for energy now. We use about 60 kWh/day on gas, I haven't calculated the electric. As a pensioner my comments are really only about how we've saved energy which might be interesting or helpful to others.
> 
> My target has been to reduce usage with minimal impact on our daily lives.



It must be having an impact tho. I mean how often over the last few years have you had to sit around the house in a fleece and gilet???


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## PaulSB (13 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> It must be having an impact tho. I mean how often over the last few years have you had to sit around the house in a fleece and gilet???



Really, no. I'm sat watching the football and very comfortable. When I go to the kitchen to wash up I'll feel the temperature is much lower but I won't be cold. It really isn't having an impact. I do understand for those with a disability this can be very different.


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## jowwy (13 Dec 2022)

PaulSB said:


> Really, no. I'm sat watching the football and very comfortable. When I go to the kitchen to wash up I'll feel the temperature is much lower but I won't be cold. It really isn't having an impact. I do understand for those with a disability this can be very different.



As you say, its not for everyone…..no way i could sit around the house in a fleece and gilet.


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## Kingfisher101 (13 Dec 2022)

I think those Gilets are a total waste of time, do people like their arms totally freezing? I think they look totally silly and are pointless as a garment.


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## chris-suffolk (13 Dec 2022)

Kingfisher101 said:


> I think those Gilets are a total waste of time, do people like their arms totally freezing? I think they look totally silly and are pointless as a garment.



They are great for cycling - try the Galibier ones.


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## Phaeton (13 Dec 2022)

To stay warm, it's your extremities you need to look after, extra pair of socks, consider gloves even rubber & a hat, yes I know wearing a hat indoors, but there's a lot of heat loss there.


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## Jody (13 Dec 2022)

Kingfisher101 said:


> I think those Gilets are a total waste of time, do people like their arms totally freezing? I think they look totally silly and are pointless as a garment.



Bought the BIL a heated Gilet for his birthday. He used it last weekend going to the football match and said it was ace.


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## fossyant (13 Dec 2022)

My daughter asked earlier if the heating was on.It was. Heating now been off since 7:30, now 10pm, and Im sat here with no socks, thin jim jam bottoms and a t-shirt and I'm hot. Mrs in woolly jumper. I'll be sleeping on-top of the covers as usual .


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## Scaleyback (13 Dec 2022)

fossyant said:


> My daughter asked earlier if the heating was on.￼ It was. Heating now been off since 7:30, now 10pm, and Im sat here with no socks, thin jim jam bottoms and a t-shirt and I'm hot. Mrs in woolly jumper. I'll be sleeping on-top of the covers as usual . ￼



You have a 'dicky' internal thermostat ?


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## mistyoptic (13 Dec 2022)

Phaeton said:


> To stay warm, it's your extremities you need to look after, extra pair of socks, consider gloves even rubber & a hat, yes I know wearing a hat indoors, but there's a lot of heat loss there.


Very true. This is where I lose heat. Hat makes a tremendous difference


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## Alex321 (13 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> I am on the standard capped tarrif…….



Make your mind up. You said above that they wouldn't let you have that one.


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## Alex321 (13 Dec 2022)

chris-suffolk said:


> I've got solar, would be interested as to why the standard isn't the best for me at the moment?



It may be. That depends on your solar setup, and which supplier you are with.

Having a system installed since FIT was phased out, with a good sized battery, and being with Octopus, their agile tariff is the best for me, and will most likely be the best for anybody in a similar situation.

For most of the year, I am likely to export quite a bit, while importing very little.


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## chris-suffolk (13 Dec 2022)

Alex321 said:


> It may be. That depends on your solar setup, and which supplier you are with.
> 
> Having a system installed since FIT was phased out, with a good sized battery, and being with Octopus, their agile tariff is the best for me, and will most likely be the best for anybody in a similar situation.
> 
> For most of the year, I am likely to export quite a bit, while importing very little.



Yes, as I thought, blanket statement which you've now qualified. At least I'm therefore happy that the standard variable rate is best for me and I haven't missed something. Being fortunate enough to be on (a very early) FIT scheme, I get paid for each unit whether I export it or not.


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## Alex321 (13 Dec 2022)

chris-suffolk said:


> Yes, as I thought, blanket statement which you've now qualified. At least I'm therefore happy that the standard variable rate is best for me and I haven't missed something. Being fortunate enough to be on (a very early) FIT scheme, I get paid for each unit whether I export it or not.



It wasn't meant to be a blanket statement. I was referring to Jowwy and myself. Apologies for not being clearer.

And yes, if you are on the FIT scheme, there is no real benefit for you in switching tariffs.


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## Kingfisher101 (13 Dec 2022)

Has anyone got their own windturbine or wind farm?


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## vickster (13 Dec 2022)

Kingfisher101 said:


> Has anyone got their own windturbine or wind farm?



Hopefully not…
https://news.sky.com/story/amp/futu...drought-with-global-stilling-to-come-12766917


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## PaulSB (14 Dec 2022)

Kingfisher101 said:


> I think those Gilets are a total waste of time, do people like their arms totally freezing? I think they look totally silly and are pointless as a garment.



As @chris-suffolk says try a Galibier. I have the Pro. When I cycle in this my core is warm and to my initial surprise my feet and hands are also warm. I presume this is a result of the body not needing to protect the core.

I don't wear the Galibier in the house.


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## jowwy (14 Dec 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Make your mind up. You said above that they wouldn't let you have that one.



ive explained this up thread before, im not explaining it again……..


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## Scaleyback (14 Dec 2022)

Kingfisher101 said:


> I think those Gilets are a total waste of time, do people like their arms totally freezing? I think they look totally silly and are pointless as a garment.



I have one of these: 
'ORORO Men's Fleece Heated Vest With Battery Pack Heated Gilet '
My wife has one as well.
3 heat settings low/med/ high. Only ever need low indoors. Up to 10 hours on low. Bloody brilliant !


----------



## Alex321 (14 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> ive explained this up thread before, im not explaining it again……..



There is no need to explain. It is very simple. Either they did let you go on it, or you aren't on it.

It may have taken some persuasion on your part, but that doesn't mean they didn't allow it.


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## jowwy (14 Dec 2022)

Alex321 said:


> There is no need to explain. It is very simple. Either they did let you go on it, or you aren't on it.
> 
> It may have taken some persuasion on your part, but that doesn't mean they didn't allow it.



They didn't allow it prior to October unit price cap......once October kicked in, i was then covered by the new unit price cap, but wasnt from the time i switched up to October 1st. 

Therefore for a few days in September i was subjected to their offer to switch rate of 55p/kwh electric and 24p/kwh for gas, because it was my choice to switch.....as i was then a customer, when the October 1st unit cap came in, they had no choice but to allow me to be switched to the standard rate covered by the government

Previous to October 1st there was a unit price cap, of around 27p/kwh for electric and 7p/kwh for gas......which in monetary terms for the AVERAGE household was around £1980 per year.

I hope this clears up the matter, but im guessing it wont, as you know more than anyone else and like to tell people that you do.....but in the rule world its not.


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## Alex321 (14 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> They didn't allow it prior to October unit price cap......once October kicked in, i was then covered by the new unit price cap, but wasnt from the time i switched up to October 1st.
> 
> Therefore for a few days in September i was subjected to their offer to switch rate of 55p/kwh electric and 24p/kwh for gas, because it was my choice to switch.....as i was then a customer, when the October 1st unit cap came in, they had no choice but to allow me to be switched to the standard rate covered by the government
> 
> ...



It clears it up fully.

But your previous statement that they won''t allow it if it is your choice to switch is still wrong. As you say, when the October change kicked in, they had to let you go onto the standard tariff, which is because that October change also came with a requirement for them to allow it for all of their customers.

Prior to that you would have been right, they may not have allowed you to go onto that tariff when switching to them. Now they have no choice but to allow it.


----------



## jowwy (14 Dec 2022)

Alex321 said:


> It clears it up fully.
> 
> But your previous statement that they won''t allow it if it is your choice to switch is still wrong. As you say, when the October change kicked in, they had to let you go onto the standard tariff, which is because that October change also came with a requirement for them to allow it for all of their *customers.*
> 
> Prior to that you would have been right, they may not have allowed you to go onto that tariff when switching to them. *Now they have no choice but to allow it.*



To current customers...people switching off their own back, may not still be protected as its their choice to switch. Which is why everyone is being advised not to switch suppliers as there is no guarantee you will be protected. I was a CUSTOMER, so they had no choice

The word customer here is key.......Scaleyback isnt currently a customer for one of their products, therefore may not get the unit cap protection for the new product he requires, if he needs. Again the word MAY, is key here, i didnt say WOULDNT

here is my original post for clarification....


----------



## Jody (14 Dec 2022)

vickster said:


> Hopefully not…
> https://news.sky.com/story/amp/futu...drought-with-global-stilling-to-come-12766917



Something I had noticed over the last few years along with weather that doesn't change for weeks at a time.


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## Alex321 (14 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> To current customers...people switching off their own back, may not still be protected as its their choice to switch. Which is why everyone is being advised not to switch suppliers as there is no guarantee you will be protected. I was a CUSTOMER, so they had no choice
> 
> The word customer here is key.......Scaleyback isnt currently a customer for one of their products, therefore may not get the unit cap protection for the new product he requires, if he needs. Again the word MAY, is key here, i didnt say WOULDNT
> 
> ...



Since October, they have no choice. All customers - including those who are just becoming customers - must be offered the default (standard) tariff as an option.

The fact you are switching by your own choice makes no difference. You are a customer of theirs from the moment you make the switch, and must be offered it. New and existing customers must now be offered the same choices.

Most people are being advised no to switch because with the caps and price guarantee, there is currently no benefit to switching in most cases.


----------



## jowwy (14 Dec 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Since October, they have no choice. All customers - including those who are just becoming customers - must be offered the default (standard) tariff as an option.
> 
> The fact you are switching by your own choice makes no difference. You are a customer of theirs from the moment you make the switch, and must be offered it. New and existing customers must now be offered the same choices.
> 
> Most people are being advised no to switch because with the caps and price guarantee, there is currently no benefit to switching in most cases.



just because ofgem have told them to do it, doesnt say they are.....

casing point on direct debits and other advice from ofgem.......thats why i said MAY


----------



## Scaleyback (14 Dec 2022)

A new ( unwanted) high in ' ma maison' Gas only (incl SC) 82kwh in 24 hours £8.30.


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## Alex321 (14 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> just because ofgem have told them to do it, doesnt say they are.....
> 
> casing point on direct debits and other advice from ofgem.......thats why i said MAY



Fair point.

You do have redress if they are disobeying that, but said redress could take quite a while to get anywhere.


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## Jody (14 Dec 2022)

Just had this from Bulb. Big savings on the way 

"We're decreasing our electricity unit rate from 33.017p to 32.807p per kWh"


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## vickster (14 Dec 2022)

Jody said:


> Just had this from Bulb. Big savings on the way
> 
> "We're decreasing our electricity unit rate from 33.017p to 32.807p per kWh"



Haven't Bulb gone tits up and in process of being taken over by Octopus? 🐙


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## Jody (14 Dec 2022)

vickster said:


> Haven't Bulb gone tits up and in process of being taken over by Octopus? 🐙



In the process of but not fully taken over as yet.


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## vickster (14 Dec 2022)

Jody said:


> In the process of but not fully taken over as yet.



as I said


----------



## Jody (14 Dec 2022)

vickster said:


> as I said



Apologies. I mis-read things on a regular basis


----------



## jowwy (14 Dec 2022)

As we all know outside temps make a difference for what you spend on heating/gas……tomorrow morning is forecast to be -7, were as on monday we have a forecast in temps of 14 degrees.

Thats a 21 degree difference in temps for december…..it be like being in the bahamas lol


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## mjr (14 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> As we all know outside temps make a difference for what you spend on heating/gas……tomorrow morning is forecast to be -7, were as on monday we have a forecast in temps of 14 degrees.
> 
> Thats a 21 degree difference in temps for december…..it be like being in the bahamas lol


You might like to look at the forecast wind!


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## jowwy (14 Dec 2022)

mjr said:


> You might like to look at the forecast wind!



Not a lot for were i am……


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## gbb (14 Dec 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> A new ( unwanted) high in ' ma maison' Gas only (incl SC) 82kwh in 24 hours £8.30.



Just done our calculations (all rough but near enough) for the last 24 hours

Reading taken after boiler turned off yesterday evening, todays reading taken at the same time.

5 m3 = 55KwH, cost around £5 odd per day.
House temps this morning 15c
Heating on at 10.00 till 12.00 set at 19.5c then 15.30 till 18.00 set at 19.5c
Hot water on last night at 18.00 off at 20.00 then on today at 06.00 off at 07.00

I think we will reduce the afternoon heating to go off at 17.00, an hour earlier . We don't like the house too warm to sleep in so that will make it more comfortable plus save cost.

House currently sitting at 18.5 c, heating been off nearly 4 hours so its only lost 1c.
18 is too warm really to go to bed in.


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## cougie uk (15 Dec 2022)

Kingfisher101 said:


> I think those Gilets are a total waste of time, do people like their arms totally freezing? I think they look totally silly and are pointless as a garment.



They're brilliant. Keep your core warm and let your arms do things. I wear mine round the house too. I can do the dishes in it - can't really do that with a coat on. 

I've even got a packable one I was using in lockdown when cafe stops had to be outside. I could put that on whilst I stopped and not get cool. 

One of the most useful bits of kit. Especially the cycling versions.


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## Scaleyback (15 Dec 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> A new ( unwanted) high in ' ma maison' Gas only (incl SC) 82kwh in 24 hours £8.30.



Just got my monthly energy bill from Octopus 15-nov-22 to 14-dec-22.
Gas £179.72 & Elec £69.29 = £249.01.
I can scrape together the £249.00 but I'm going to neogoiate a bank loan for the remainder.

P.S Maybe crowd funding is a better option than a bank loan ?


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## cougie uk (15 Dec 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> Just got my monthly energy bill from Octopus 15-nov-22 to 14-dec-22.
> Gas £179.72 & Elec £69.29 = £249.01.
> I can scrape together the £249.00 but I'm going to neogoiate a bank loan for the remainder.
> 
> P.S Maybe crowd funding is a better option than a bank loan ?



Have you not got any credit balance with Octopus?


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## Scaleyback (15 Dec 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Have you not got any credit balance with Octopus?



Yes, but it's down to a miserly £455.00 now  Oh, plus this months DD not credited yet.


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## jowwy (15 Dec 2022)

Just stuck the washing machine on, as the sun is shining and the solar is pumping...saving money and making money at the same time. Got to top up the octopus account with the export.


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## Ming the Merciless (15 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> tomorrow morning is forecast to be -7,



And it is bang on for here, currently -7C


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## jowwy (15 Dec 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> And it is bang on for here, currently -7C



it was a cold one, was putting the recycling out at 6:30 and my nips were freezing up lol


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## Kingfisher101 (15 Dec 2022)

cougie uk said:


> They're brilliant. Keep your core warm and let your arms do things. I wear mine round the house too. I can do the dishes in it - can't really do that with a coat on.
> 
> I've even got a packable one I was using in lockdown when cafe stops had to be outside. I could put that on whilst I stopped and not get cool.
> 
> One of the most useful bits of kit. Especially the cycling versions.



Why cant you do dishes with a coat on? I can understand them being useful for people working outside etc but otherwize I think they are a gimmick. One of my problems is my arms get very cold so they are not for me. If they work for you then fair enough.


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## cougie uk (15 Dec 2022)

Kingfisher101 said:


> Why cant you do dishes with a coat on? I can understand them being useful for people working outside etc but otherwize I think they are a gimmick. One of my problems is my arms get very cold so they are not for me. If they work for you then fair enough.



Wet sleeves ? 

My favourite armwarmers are a set of tattoo sleeves which are basically tights for the arms. roll down to nothing but keep the chill off when it's not warm enough for bare arms. Cost a couple of quid and make a big difference on the bike and running for me.


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## Chislenko (15 Dec 2022)

cougie uk said:


> I can do the dishes in it - can't really do that with a coat on.



That's Mrs. C's Christmas present sorted 😊


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## chris-suffolk (15 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> Just stuck the washing machine on, as the sun is shining and the solar is pumping...saving money and making money at the same time. Got to top up the octopus account with the export.



Same here, washing on, maybe even the tumble dryer, and all at 63p /kw that I generate (exported or not). Win, win!


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## jowwy (15 Dec 2022)

chris-suffolk said:


> Same here, washing on, maybe even the tumble dryer, and all at 63p /kw that I generate (exported or not). Win, win!



damn you early adopters lol


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## Ming the Merciless (15 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> it was a cold one, was putting the recycling out at 6:30 and my nips were freezing up lol



I thought it had warmed up, but back from bike ride and coldest was -6C


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## jowwy (15 Dec 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> I thought it had warmed up, but back from bike ride and coldest was -6C



Its been a pretty cold one all day ming……not gone above zero here


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## Ming the Merciless (15 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> Its been a pretty cold one all day ming……not gone above zero here



Hasn’t been above zero all week here. Due to start warming on Sat.


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## jowwy (15 Dec 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Hasn’t been above zero all week here. Due to start warming on Sat.



Yup and could be in double figures sunday/monday


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## Ming the Merciless (15 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> Yup and could be in double figures sunday/monday



And wet, cue flooding …


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## jowwy (15 Dec 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> And wet, cue flooding …



If i flood up here….then the whole of wales is in trouble, but yes, there are risks off flooding in the flatlands of south wales


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## gavroche (15 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> Yup and could be in double figures sunday/monday



Can't wait. Will be able to cut back on the heating then, may be turn it off altogether.


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## Phaeton (17 Dec 2022)

Just had our bill from Octopus for the last 2 weeks, £28.33 for the electric which I can live with but £99.39 for gas is unreal, the only thing is hot water & heating, which is set at 14 degrees, around 2pm, 18 degrees at 6pm & off at 10pm, wouldn't have thought bad insulation as it's still 13 degrees at 7am.


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## jowwy (17 Dec 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Just had our bill from Octopus for the last 2 weeks, £28.33 for the electric which I can live with but £99.39 for gas is unreal, the only thing is hot water & heating, which is set at 14 degrees, around 2pm, 18 degrees at 6pm & off at 10pm, wouldn't have thought bad insulation as it's still 13 degrees at 7am.



Getting from 14* to 18* in the cold evening temps would be the issue……


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## Phaeton (17 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> Getting from 14* to 18* in the cold evening temps would be the issue……



Also think that one of the issues is the boiler position, the 2 taps that are mainly used kitchen & utility I suspect are over 30 feet away from it, which means it heats a lot of water up which never actually gets used, or at least in it's hot state.


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## Chislenko (17 Dec 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Also think that one of the issues is the boiler position, the 2 taps that are mainly used kitchen & utility I suspect are over 30 feet away from it, which means it heats a lot of water up which never actually gets used, or at least in it's hot state.



We have the same problem, takes an age for hot water to arrive at the tap.


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## jowwy (17 Dec 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Also think that one of the issues is the boiler position, the 2 taps that are mainly used kitchen & utility I suspect are over 30 feet away from it, which means it heats a lot of water up which never actually gets used, or at least in it's hot state.



Yeh mines at least that far away too…..but i aint paying 100 bucks a fortnight. Its the heating in cold temps it takes a lot to get houses upto temp and a 4 degree rise is quite a bit in cold evening temperatures. Maybe set another temp at afternoon of around 16….that way its doing a 2 deg rise in slightly better temps and then not working as hard to heat in the evenings.


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## Phaeton (17 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> Yeh mines at least that far away too…..but i aint paying 100 bucks a fortnight. Its the heating in cold temps it takes a lot to get houses upto temp and a 4 degree rise is quite a bit in cold evening temperatures. Maybe set another temp at afternoon of around 16….that way its doing a 2 deg rise in slightly better temps and then not working as hard to heat in the evenings.



Not sure that would work as the house seems currently to sits at 12-13 without heating, so to get to 18 degrees it still has to get from 12 - 18 so I'm unsure if going from 12 to 16 to 18 would be any different from 12 to 14 to 18 other than it would have to maintain 16 for a longer period, not saying you're wrong, just can't see the logic at the moment.


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## jowwy (17 Dec 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Not sure that would work as the house seems currently to sits at 12-13 without heating, so to get to 18 degrees it still has to get from 12 - 18 so I'm unsure if going from 12 to 16 to 18 would be any different from 12 to 14 to 18 other than it would have to maintain 16 for a longer period, not saying you're wrong, just can't see the logic at the moment.



Because your trying to get from 14 to 18 in the coldest part of the day……..so what im trying to say, if you get it to 16 earlier in the day and maintain that, then when you need to get to 18 later in the evening the gap is only 2 degs at what is the coldest part of the day, so would take less gas to get there.

I have my thermo set at 18.5 all day, it switches on when it drops to 18 and goes off at 19…..its a lot cheaper to maintain a temperature, than to attain one…..i also have the timer set for 6:15am to 8:30pm and comes on when the temp drops below the 18.5. It works here and doesnt cost anywhere near 100 bucks a fortnight.


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## gavroche (17 Dec 2022)

Next Thursday, I shall go to Lidle very early to buy 2 of those plug in 600 W heaters that cost 21p an hour to run. They will be in on Thursday at 12.99 each I think. What's to lose ?


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## jowwy (19 Dec 2022)

Lets hope this warmer weather will help ease people's heating costs and lessen the bills for most.....


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## Phaeton (19 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> Lets hope this warmer weather will help ease people's heating costs and lessen the bills for most.....



Yes it was decidedly warmer riding up to the field this morning, wind had swung around to the South


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## cougie uk (19 Dec 2022)

gavroche said:


> Next Thursday, I shall go to Lidle very early to buy 2 of those plug in 600 W heaters that cost 21p an hour to run. They will be in on Thursday at 12.99 each I think. What's to lose ?



Check the weather forecast - you might not be needing them!


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## gavroche (19 Dec 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Check the weather forecast - you might not be needing them!



Officially, winter hasn't started yet so I will be ready when it does.


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## mjr (19 Dec 2022)

gavroche said:


> Next Thursday, I shall go to Lidle very early to buy 2 of those plug in 600 W heaters that cost 21p an hour to run. They will be in on Thursday at 12.99 each I think. What's to lose ?


Loads of money? 2x21p/hr=42p/h may sound good, but in this mild weather, the Air Source Heat Pump is only costing 21p/hr average (average 0.48kW input) to heat the whole farking house and the hot water tank. Cost a bit more than 25.98 to buy, granted, (including grants). So you save on the purchase price but get stung on the usage.


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## gavroche (19 Dec 2022)

mjr said:


> Loads of money? 2x21p/hr=42p/h may sound good, but in this mild weather, the Air Source Heat Pump is only costing 21p/hr average (average 0.48kW input) to heat the whole farking house and the hot water tank. Cost a bit more than 25.98 to buy, granted, (including grants). So you save on the purchase price but get stung on the usage.



To be honest, I have changed my mind and will only buy one as we don't need two.


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## Scaleyback (19 Dec 2022)

Advice please.
I know someone who is on a prepayment meter for their gas. 
Their supplier is British Gas. The lady says she has not received 
any of the £400 payment ( £66 x 6) 
Do BG pay into a customers energy account or directly into a bank account.


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## Phaeton (19 Dec 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> Advice please.
> I know someone who is on a prepayment meter for their gas.
> Their supplier is British Gas. The lady says she has not received
> any of the £400 payment ( £66 x 6)
> Do BG pay into a customers energy account or directly into a bank account.



First advice would unfortunately be to contact BG to ask them, Octopus appear to be receiving it on our behalf & making the adjustments, I would have thought the providers are being paid on each MPAN number they hold on their registers. But the whole scheme is cockeyed so anything is posible


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## Jody (19 Dec 2022)

Vouchers through the post if topping up in a shop or via a fob.

Credit onto you meter if on a smart meter that you can top up online.


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## Scaleyback (19 Dec 2022)

Jody said:


> Vouchers through the post if topping up in a shop or via a fob.
> 
> Credit onto you meter if on a smart meter that you can top up online.



Credit onto the meter, you sure about that jody ? this could explain why the lady in question says she hasn't received any payments.
If they are not ' meter savvy ' the credit could get used up very quickly without them knowing it was there. Is that feasible ?


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## Scaleyback (19 Dec 2022)

Ok, I think I have sorted it. Apparently BG credit the monthly payment on the the Electricity prepayment meter only. The person in question didn't know this. 
Seems a pretty stupid / lazy way to apply these payments. Most people use gas to keep warm.


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## Pat "5mph" (19 Dec 2022)

I know someone that works for Ofcom.
They said that the government's payments are only towards the electricity bill.
He himself had to go back to work in the office, because he can't afford the gas heating, while he's much in credit with his electricity supplier  (pre- pay meters for both)
Of course, if you are on a dual fuel DD the £ 66 are applied to the whole of the account.


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## MrGrumpy (19 Dec 2022)

OVO seem to credit the £66 into my bank account ?


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## Scaleyback (19 Dec 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> OVO seem to credit the £66 into my bank account ?



Yes, some companies into bank accounts, some, mine is Octopus paid into my energy account. It is up to the energy companies how they handle these payments.


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## SpokeyDokey (19 Dec 2022)

Today we finished our financial projections for 2023:

Electicity: £1100

Oil: £1300

Coal: 900

Logs: 300

Total: £3600 pa

3 bed detached bungalow, decent size in Cumbria. 2 occupants, both retired.

Posted as a reference point for anyone interested.


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## Chislenko (19 Dec 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Today we finished our financial projections for 2023:
> 
> Electicity: £1100
> 
> ...



A good proportion of a basic state pension.

We are not "hard up" by any means but the figures are frightening, should I be happy that we planned for our future and can stand on our own two feet and struggle on to pay the bills or should we have frittered it away at the bookies etc and then held our hand out.

Does make you wonder who has it right.


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## Scaleyback (20 Dec 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Today we finished our financial projections for 2023:
> 
> Electicity: £1100
> 
> ...



Well, it is certainly high £300 a month for 12 months but not ( imo )
outrageously high. Your ' situation' doesn't lend itself to small energy bills. Detached bungalow, 1. 4 exposed walls to lose heat. 2. bungalow's have more roof footage than 2 storey builds, most heat loss is via the roof. 3. Location, Cumbria's west coast location is inclined to catch the worst of the weather. 4. I assume gas is not an option and oil, coal and logs combined will certainly cost more than
gas. 
On the plus side you live in beautiful Cumbria, maybe in the Lake district ? or at least pretty close. That has to be worth a ' sizeable wedge ' ?


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## MrGrumpy (20 Dec 2022)

My energy forecast is looking circa £4k plus a year . I’ve tried to knuckle down on our usage as well . Which is noticeable. Hoping solar panels next year alleviate some costs for me long term. Not retiring anytime soon but currently , I’m not so sure living in this big house is the right thing when we do retire unless , energy costs come down !


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## jowwy (20 Dec 2022)

My dual duel bill for 2022 so far is - £1375, with only 20 days to pay for in December, as my November went upto the 10th dec....

so will be around £1575 is my prediction


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## PaulSB (20 Dec 2022)

I have a very, very bizarre situation with British Gas who we were moved to September 2021 as the "supplier of last resort." I love that phrase and regularly quote it to BG in my complaints.

After months of complaining BG eventually conceded my account had been wrong from November 1st 2021 to July 4th 2022 and I had overpaid. All the invoices were reversed and new invoices issued leaving me £211 in credit. Since then the addition of the EBSS payments has increased our credit and as of November 15th we were still £162 in credit. Last time I paid BG was August when the direct debit was £8.37!!!! it's a truly bizarre situation and one I'm going to have to manage carefully looking towards winter 2023/24.

Last submitted meter readings December 11th and I'm still waiting for the bill to arrive. Sometimes I have to ask for one to be sent, other months I get billed for only one fuel and then the next month get billed for two lots, etc. BG are shite.

I run the utility account at my son's house. I visit, read the meters, enter this in the app, and get a bill inside two minutes! Scottish Power are on another planet compared to BG.


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## jowwy (20 Dec 2022)

PaulSB said:


> I have a very, very bizarre situation with British Gas who we were moved to September 2021 as the "supplier of last resort." I love that phrase and regularly quote it to BG in my complaints.
> 
> After months of complaining BG eventually conceded my account had been wrong from November 1st 2021 to July 4th 2022 and I had overpaid. All the invoices were reversed and new invoices issued leaving me £211 in credit. Since then the addition of the EBSS payments has increased our credit and as of November 15th we were still £162 in credit. Last time I paid BG was August when the direct debit was £8.37!!!! it's a truly bizarre situation and one I'm going to have to manage carefully looking towards winter 2023/24.
> 
> ...



why not see if you can switch and still keep the government protection from another company??


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## PaulSB (20 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> why not see if you can switch and still keep the government protection from another company??



The last time I looked BG was the best deal around for me. I may take another look but more likely I'll stick with it till March and the end of EBSS.


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## Scaleyback (20 Dec 2022)

PaulSB said:


> . BG are shite.


As a long term employee of British Gas (Transco) ' Back in the day ' and in receipt of a BG pension it pains me to read this. This seems to be a repeated story across the country. 
Privatisation has taken this World leading gas company and transformed into a lottery on the type service you will receive.
No matter, shareholders are probably happy with their dividends so
alls well at corporate headquarters.


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## PaulSB (20 Dec 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> As a long term employee of British Gas (Transco) ' Back in the day ' and in receipt of a BG pension it pains me to read this. This seems to be a repeated story across the country.
> Privatisation has taken this World leading gas company and transformed into a lottery on the type service you will receive.
> No matter, shareholders are probably happy with their dividends so
> alls well at corporate headquarters.



I'm not sure which department is which but will say this. The engineers are superb, knowledgeable, quality workmanship, informative etc. The installation of our new boiler a few years back was quick, easy and well done. We have a boiler service agreement with BG and I wouldn't change nor hesitate to recommend them.

The administration and customer service is absolutely appalling. Complete shite. This morning I'm trying to persuade customer service to send me a bill!!! We are only with BG as the "supplier of last resort" and never has a description been more apt. I can't wait to leave when the time is right. I've been with various independents over the last 20+ years, all have failed recently and clearly had a poor business model, but in terms of administration, billing, customer service etc. none deserved to go under and frankly on these criteria BG should have sunk a long time ago. Sorry to say this but it's true.

I should add I'm sure the people I speak to are well meaning but they seem to be powerless to get anything whatsoever done. It must be management they can't all be terrible employees.


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## PaulSB (20 Dec 2022)

Here is the response to my request for a bill from BG. Meter readings submitted on 11/12/22

"no worries I will be getting this sorted for you . need not to worry It will not be hampering to credit file as well as well as no huge bill will be asked to pay you rest assured As I will be making an arrangements for you rest assured."

"thanks for waitign I have made the arrangemnts for you rest assured no worries It will be sorted till 2 January rest assured and for your confirmation you can take this chat as confirmation."


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## DCLane (20 Dec 2022)

@PaulSB - that shows they've out-sourced their customer service to another country / third party. The language itself is hopeless, let alone the lack of professionalism included.

It saves base costs but adds incompetence.


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## presta (20 Dec 2022)

PaulSB said:


> The engineers are superb, knowledgeable, quality workmanship, informative etc. The installation of our new boiler a few years back was quick, easy and well done. We have a boiler service agreement with BG and I wouldn't change nor hesitate to recommend them.



I think I've written before about how BG spent over 16 years repeatedly scraping off the limescale that was jamming a dangerous gas valve actuator on my water heater whilst pretending that they didn't know anything about the problem, or the modification that had been introduced to fix it.


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## PaulSB (20 Dec 2022)

DCLane said:


> @PaulSB - that shows they've out-sourced their customer service to another country / third party. The language itself is hopeless, let alone the lack of professionalism included.
> 
> It saves base costs but adds incompetence.



Absolutely, it's as clear as day. I would never blame the individuals who I'm sure do their very best. No point in getting angry with them either.

Compare this with Scottish Power who I had reason to call a few months ago. I manage the SP account on behalf of four men, including my son, with limited mental capacity. The call agent had to get authorisation from two individuals before speaking to me. The guy was perfect, patient, professional and understanding as each was coaxed into understanding and replying.


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## Phaeton (20 Dec 2022)

PaulSB said:


> Absolutely, it's as clear as day. I would never blame the individuals *who I'm sure do their very best.* No point in getting angry with them either.


I'm not convinced of that, offshore call centres have never been very good & now add the fact that most of them now work from house with zero supervision most have gone from bad to atrocious, most appear to know they are untraceable, they know if you ask them a difficult question they are simply wait you out until you hang up, or disconnect, if they then get asked they will blame communication problems.

I was onto Vodafone the other day on their chat system, it took me to agent 6 before I got my answer,


----------



## Chislenko (20 Dec 2022)

PaulSB said:


> Here is the response to my request for a bill from BG. Meter readings submitted on 11/12/22
> 
> "no worries I will be getting this sorted for you . need not to worry It will not be hampering to credit file as well as well as no huge bill will be asked to pay you rest assured As I will be making an arrangements for you rest assured."
> 
> "thanks for waitign I have made the arrangemnts for you rest assured no worries It will be sorted till 2 January rest assured and for your confirmation you can take this chat as confirmation."



At least you can "rest assured "


----------



## byegad (20 Dec 2022)

I have to say BG have been good for us. I read the meters when they ask and use their app to submit them, unlike other suppliers their 'recommended direct debit' amount isn't far off what I calculate it needs to be, and until recently they were remarkably stable, year on year. The shower I was with before, in a different house, would suggest a ludicrously low amount one quarter and a stupidly high amount the next, I routinely rejected their suggestion and worked out my own amount which never saw us hughly in debit or vastly in credit over 20 years!


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## classic33 (20 Dec 2022)

PaulSB said:


> Here is the response to my request for a bill from BG. Meter readings submitted on 11/12/22
> 
> "no worries I will be getting this sorted for you . need not to worry It will not be hampering to credit file as well as well as no huge bill will be asked to pay you rest assured As I will be making an arrangements for you rest assured."
> 
> "thanks for waitign I have made the arrangemnts for you rest assured no worries* It will be sorted till 2 January* rest assured and for your confirmation you can take this chat as confirmation."


Isn't the 2nd a Bank Holiday Monday?


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## classic33 (20 Dec 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I'm not convinced of that, offshore call centres have never been very good & now add the fact that most of them now work from house with zero supervision most have gone from bad to atrocious, most appear to know they are untraceable, they know if you ask them a difficult question they are simply wait you out until you hang up, or disconnect, if they then get asked they will blame communication problems.
> 
> I was onto Vodafone the other day on their chat system, it took me to agent 6 before I got my answer,


Account access is recorded by the system. More so they can see who did what than to help you.
But there is nothing to stop you requesting this information.


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## PaulSB (20 Dec 2022)

classic33 said:


> Isn't the 2nd a Bank Holiday Monday?



Exactly........................but you would need to be in the UK to know that!


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## fossyant (20 Dec 2022)

Scottish Power have just emailed to say prices dropping from 1st Jan. No idea how much but probably tiny.


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## jowwy (20 Dec 2022)

fossyant said:


> Scottish Power have just emailed to say prices dropping from 1st Jan. No idea how much but probably tiny.



It wont drop below the capped unit price though will it???


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## SpokeyDokey (20 Dec 2022)

fossyant said:


> Scottish Power have just emailed to say prices dropping from 1st Jan. No idea how much but probably tiny.



We had one yesterday saying they are going up!


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## PaulSB (20 Dec 2022)

fossyant said:


> Scottish Power have just emailed to say prices dropping from 1st Jan. No idea how much but probably tiny.



Yep, got one of those. Our electric will be reduce from 33.476p/unit to 33.329p/unit................. 0.147p/unit which I think is 147/100th of a penny. That maths is too hard for me.


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## jowwy (20 Dec 2022)

PaulSB said:


> Yep, got one of those. Our electric will be reduce from 33.476p/unit to 33.329p/unit................. 0.147p/unit which I think is 147/100th of a penny. That maths is too hard for me.



Thats the current capped unit price


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## PaulSB (20 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> Thats the current capped unit price



That's what Scottish Power are offering from January 1st


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## DaveReading (20 Dec 2022)

PaulSB said:


> 0.147p/unit which I think is 147/100th of a penny. That maths is too hard for me.


Indeed it is. 

It's actually 147/1000ths of a penny.

Don't spend it all at once.


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## jowwy (20 Dec 2022)

PaulSB said:


> That's what Scottish Power are offering from January 1st
> 
> View attachment 671820



My unit costs are the same, but your leccy standard charge is lower by 4p, but the gas standard charge is higher by 1.68p

Its odd how these unit price caps are worked out by different companies


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## PaulSB (21 Dec 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I'm not convinced of that, offshore call centres have never been very good & now add the fact that most of them now work from house with zero supervision most have gone from bad to atrocious, most appear to know they are untraceable, they know if you ask them a difficult question they are simply wait you out until you hang up, or disconnect, if they then get asked they will blame communication problems.
> 
> I was onto Vodafone the other day on their chat system, it took me to agent 6 before I got my answer,



Yes, I can understand this view and there's no doubt offshore call centres have never been good. It's inevitable as one can't expect a customer service agent from a different culture to have any empathy for a customer's needs. Reading from scripts does little more than irritate the customer and there is no ability to interpret or fully understand the nuance of what the customer is saying. I hadn't thought of the supervision aspect and working from home. My first thought would be to blame management for cutting corners and I like to feel most employees do try their best.

The WFH aspect is interesting. I bank with Santander, in my experience the customer service is outstanding, and whenever I call it's very obvious the agent is working from home but there is no decline in standards whatsoever.


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## Phaeton (21 Dec 2022)

We tried opening a Call Centre in the Philippines but closed it down after 18 months as it simply didn't work, the culture was so different, they were happy to continue to say yes they understood the issue when clearly they had no comprehension of the issue. They would never challenge authority if it was clear something was incorrect they would happily carry on making the same error over & over again. There were exceptions & we still employ 2 people from the country but it did seem to be a cultural thing. 

We produced flowcharts for their work & they would follow them religiously even if the flowchart got into a loop, for an example we had a rule that stated if the issue was under 30p then just refund don't argue etc. I came across many that had entered the system as the amount was 31p yes I know our fault, but the logic was there was leaway, but they didn't understand that concept. Hands up this could be a training issue, but it came across this was how they had been taight in school.


----------



## jowwy (21 Dec 2022)

My home office now closed for xmas and will re-open on 9th January. That will save me a few KWHs of leccy for the next 17days


----------



## Scaleyback (21 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> My home office now closed for xmas and will re-open on 9th January. That will save me a few KWHs of leccy for the next 17days



1st job when you open up on 9th Jan ?
Wish me happy birthday, 76 years young on the day. 🤪


----------



## jowwy (21 Dec 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> 1st job when you open up on 9th Jan ?
> Wish me happy birthday, 76 years young on the day. 🤪



Your 76, i was born in 76……


----------



## Ming the Merciless (21 Dec 2022)

Octopus have completed the purchase of Bulb


----------



## fossyant (21 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> Your 76, i was born in 76……



Youngster


----------



## Scaleyback (21 Dec 2022)

fossyant said:


> Youngster



Just a baby. 😀


----------



## Scaleyback (21 Dec 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Octopus have completed the purchase of Bulb



I hope sincerely they have the infrastructure and staff to fully support the extra business.
Too date Octopus have by 'streets' been the most efficient energy company I have ever experienced (and I've experienced a few) 
A couple of years ago I was with Together Energy, a small efficient company until they took on the customers of a failed energy company. Chaos ensued, they went 'downhill' with the speed of a 
runaway truck until they went out of business.


----------



## jowwy (21 Dec 2022)

fossyant said:


> Youngster



46 now lol


----------



## Alex321 (21 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> 46 now lol



My elder daughter is only 4 years younger than you


----------



## Scaleyback (21 Dec 2022)

Alex321 said:


> My elder daughter is only 4 years younger than you



My daughter is 5 years older than him. 😮


----------



## rogerzilla (22 Dec 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> In Todays ' I '
> 
> Octopus pays £1m to customers.
> Octopus said more than 250,000 households who have taken part in a scheme where they can earn money for reducing electricity consumption have been paid an average of £4 each.
> Well, as the lady who wee'd in the sea said, " every little helps "


If that was for one day's trial, that's very good. £4 would keep this house warm for about 7 hours.


----------



## jowwy (22 Dec 2022)

the warmer temps mean, i have used 10m3 of gas less this week, than at the same time last week in the colder weather........


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## vickster (22 Dec 2022)

ugh, gas bill £80 for the last cold month (plus leccy £40)


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## jowwy (23 Dec 2022)

vickster said:


> ugh, gas bill £80 for the last cold month (plus leccy £40)



Arent you on some sort of fixed deal right now???


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## vickster (23 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> Arent you on some sort of fixed deal right now???



Yes, and…it’s not free! (Well apart from the bit my taxes are paying for thanks to the govt)
The heating has been on 12+ hours a day during the cold weather.
Life’s too short to be cold especially while sat working!
House could be better insulated, I’ll add it to the long list of things to get sorted in the spring 

What’s with the three question marks?


----------



## jowwy (23 Dec 2022)

vickster said:


> Yes, and…it’s not free! (Well apart from the bit my taxes are paying for thanks to the govt)
> The heating has been on 12+ hours a day during the cold weather.
> Life’s too short to be cold especially while sat working!
> House could be better insulated, I’ll add it to the long list of things to get sorted in the spring
> ...



when one question mark wont do, add 3 lol…..

and i didnt mean it was free, but just a better tariff than most currently and i agree on lifes too short to be cold while working.


----------



## chris-suffolk (23 Dec 2022)

vickster said:


> ugh, gas bill £80 for the last cold month (plus leccy £40)



Sounds a bargain, £230 for combined gas and leccy here, and it's NOT been on anything like 12 hours a day.


----------



## vickster (23 Dec 2022)

chris-suffolk said:


> Sounds a bargain, £230 for combined gas and leccy here, and it's NOT been on anything like 12 hours a day.



It was just rather more than usual but quite manageable. Won’t use much gas or leccy for the next couple of weeks as I’ll be away in rather warmer climes


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## rogerzilla (24 Dec 2022)

Wood burners aren't exactly an energy-saving solution, given that mine will heat the whole house even on the coldest days! I can switch the CH off all winter, but I'm not really saving anything.


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## jowwy (24 Dec 2022)

rogerzilla said:


> Wood burners aren't exactly an energy-saving solution, given that mine will heat the whole house even on the coldest days! I can switch the CH off all winter, but I'm not really saving anything.



Your saving on very expensive gas and some people use very free wood…….


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## chris-suffolk (24 Dec 2022)

rogerzilla said:


> Wood burners aren't exactly an energy-saving solution, given that mine will heat the whole house even on the coldest days! I can switch the CH off all winter, but I'm not really saving anything.





jowwy said:


> Your saving on very expensive gas and some people use very free wood…….



Quite - not bought any wood in 15 years, and got at least 3 years supply stacked


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## PaulSB (24 Dec 2022)

rogerzilla said:


> Wood burners aren't exactly an energy-saving solution, given that mine will heat the whole house even on the coldest days! I can switch the CH off all winter, but I'm not really saving anything.



As pointed out already it depends on one's wood supply. I've never purchased logs and scavenge all we need. It's getting harder to find as most of the local trees that might blow down already have!


----------



## cougie uk (24 Dec 2022)

Woodburners aren't great for particulates though. We will be back to pea soupers in cities if we all start burning wood.


----------



## jowwy (24 Dec 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Woodburners aren't great for particulates though. We will be back to pea soupers in cities if we all start burning wood.



If its the only way for some to keep warm, then so it shall be……dont blame the people, blame the G ah shikes too political


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## rogerzilla (24 Dec 2022)

PaulSB said:


> As pointed out already it depends on one's wood supply. I've never purchased logs and scavenge all we need. It's getting harder to find as most of the local trees that might blow down already have!


It's unusual to be able to legally scavenge from woodland, and certainly not allowed in Woodland Trust forests. Where do you find it? I know people give away logs on Facebook occasionally, but you'd need a LOT of that to sustain a stove through the winter. I burn about 1.8 tonnes a year.


----------



## Gunk (24 Dec 2022)

chris-suffolk said:


> Sounds a bargain, £230 for combined gas and leccy here, and it's NOT been on anything like 12 hours a day.



We’re now paying over £350 a month and we also have a log burner so some days the heating isn’t even on


----------



## PaulSB (25 Dec 2022)

rogerzilla said:


> It's unusual to be able to legally scavenge from woodland, and certainly not allowed in Woodland Trust forests. Where do you find it? I know people give away logs on Facebook occasionally, but you'd need a LOT of that to sustain a stove through the winter. I burn about 1.8 tonnes a year.



I think I've chosen the wrong word with "scavenge"? Please don't think i work my way through the local woodland as such timber should be left to provide habit for numerous species. Most recently my timber has come from a 100 foot hedge a neighbour took down, a share of an oak another neighbour felled on his land, a share in two diseased mature beech the LA gave the required permission to fell and other similar situations. The landowners offered the wood.

I've no idea how much we burn in weight, just how big the winter stack needs to be! I'm heating the front, back room and kitchen of a terraced cottage during the day with 2-3 hours CH in the evening.

It's just a question of keeping an eye open for wood which is available and approaching the owner.


----------



## gbb (29 Dec 2022)

As the and of the month approaches, we have just taken the meter readings. For some reason, the gas seems ever present in our mind, more so than the electric, but...
A very quick calculation will see the gas bill in at £110 for the month. I think out last one was around £70, so given we've had the grandkids for several days (and will have for a few days more while mum is in hospital ) ..heating been on more obviously, plus lots of young visitors, more heating, plus the general weather, more heating...thats not bad. Just hope my rough calculations are right.
Its also painfully obvious, as the kids have been, the heating been left on for longer periods, but the boilers on less....obviously its just topping up a few degrees rather than long burns trying to catch up again.
If only we could find a way to sleep in a warmer house...all the heat we put into the house is lost overnight, that will always be the case unfortunately, can't sleep in an even remotely warm bedroom.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (29 Dec 2022)

My gas smart meter has stopped talking since 12th December. It’s scared what I’ll do when I see the numbers. Guess I’ll have to take look to see if I can get it to talk to the connection bits above electric meter or I’ll be submitting a manual reading.


----------



## lazybloke (29 Dec 2022)

My Christmas day energy usage was £10.26.
Could have been better, could have been worse...


----------



## Scaleyback (29 Dec 2022)

Just received a letter from Octopus Energy containing the following paragraph

An email from Octopus Energy









Looking further ahead, based on current plans, *energy prices will rise a further 20% in April* — taking a typical home annual bill from around £2,500 to £3,000 — as the Government scales back the amount of support available.

With the £67 monthly credits from the Energy Bill Support Scheme also ending in March, we know April is going to be a difficult time for many.


----------



## SpokeyDokey (29 Dec 2022)

gbb said:


> As the and of the month approaches, we have just taken the meter readings. For some reason, the gas seems ever present in our mind, more so than the electric, but...
> A very quick calculation will see the gas bill in at £110 for the month. I think out last one was around £70, so given we've had the grandkids for several days (and will have for a few days more while mum is in hospital ) ..heating been on more obviously, plus lots of young visitors, more heating, plus the general weather, more heating...thats not bad. Just hope my rough calculations are right.
> Its also painfully obvious, as the kids have been, the heating been left on for longer periods, but the boilers on less....obviously its just topping up a few degrees rather than long burns trying to catch up again.
> If only we could find a way to sleep in a warmer house...all the heat we put into the house is lost overnight, that will always be the case unfortunately, can't sleep in an even remotely warm bedroom.



Can't stand a warm bedroom here and always sleep with the bedroom window open - keeping the door shut helps to conserve heat overnight.


----------



## numbnuts (29 Dec 2022)

lazybloke said:


> My Christmas day energy usage was £10.26.
> Could have been better, could have been worse...




In contrast, single, no heating and no fancy cooking £1.85 6.8 units


----------



## jowwy (29 Dec 2022)

numbnuts said:


> In contrast, single, no heating and no fancy cooking £1.85 6.8 units



You still on a nice low deal then???


----------



## numbnuts (29 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> You still on a nice low deal then???



Yes until the 24th Febuary, how much it will be after that God knows £££££, but I'm trying to keep it less than £2 per day


----------



## Tenkaykev (29 Dec 2022)

Gas prices are now below what they were when the invasion of Ukraine started.


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## jowwy (29 Dec 2022)

Tenkaykev said:


> Gas prices are now below what they were when the invasion of Ukraine started.



But the gas was bought when the prices were high, they now need to use that high proce gas, before restocking with the lower price stuff


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## jowwy (29 Dec 2022)

numbnuts said:


> Yes until the 24th Febuary, how much it will be after that God knows £££££, but I'm trying to keep it less than £2 per day



Whats you current tariff??? The capped unit price is 33.4p/kwh


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## numbnuts (29 Dec 2022)

Gas - 7.48kwh
Elec - 28.45kwh


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## jowwy (29 Dec 2022)

numbnuts said:


> Gas - 7.48kwh
> Elec - 28.45kwh



So a few pence increase on each one come end of feb…..and the another rise come april. Its shocking how much it keeps rising


----------



## toffee (29 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> But the gas was bought when the prices were high, they now need to use that high proce gas, before restocking with the lower price stuff



I am surprised no one is having a go at them for forward buying


----------



## jowwy (29 Dec 2022)

toffee said:


> I am surprised no one is having a go at them for forward buying



You have to forward buy, to enable you to supply your customers……how else would we get our gas???


----------



## toffee (29 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> You have to forward buy, to enable you to supply your customers……how else would we get our gas???



oh I agree, but its like petrol when the crude oil prices change the retailers are hammered because they have not lowered their price.


----------



## MrGrumpy (29 Dec 2022)

lazybloke said:


> My Christmas day energy usage was £10.26.
> Could have been better, could have been worse...



£18 not inc vat and standing charge  we did cook a lot for 7 adults !


----------



## MrGrumpy (29 Dec 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> Just received a letter from Octopus Energy containing the following paragraph
> 
> An email from Octopus Energy
> ​
> ...


It’s really shoot isn’t it  . I hope to have my solar up and running long before then . Which over time will save something …. Maybe………..


----------



## presta (29 Dec 2022)

I've just put in a monthly meter reading
My average gas consumption for this December was 3660W, compared to 3140W last year, and 3446W in 2020.


----------



## Asa Post (30 Dec 2022)

EDF have sent me a statement for the last 6 months. I wish they did it monthly, but heigh-ho. Gas only, the electricity is with a different company.
My own estimate was only a few pounds out, and because I pay by direct debit I'm still in credit, but they have projected my usage forward for 2023 and taking account of the price increase in April they want to change the DD from £62 to £82 .
As my son commented, that's a huge % increase, but when I look at what other people are paying I'm relieved that's it's not a lot bigger.


----------



## Phaeton (30 Dec 2022)

Asa Post said:


> EDF have sent me a statement for the last 6 months. I wish they did it monthly, but heigh-ho. Gas only, the electricity is with a different company.
> My own estimate was only a few pounds out, and because I pay by direct debit I'm still in credit, but they have projected my usage forward for 2023 and taking account of the price increase in April they want to change the DD from £62 to £82 .
> As my son commented, that's a huge % increase, but when I look at what other people are paying I'm relieved that's it's not a lot bigger.



At least your son comprehends others I think will be jealous


----------



## Scaleyback (30 Dec 2022)

Asa Post said:


> EDF have sent me a statement for the last 6 months. I wish they did it monthly, but heigh-ho. Gas only, the electricity is with a different company.
> My own estimate was only a few pounds out, and because I pay by direct debit I'm still in credit, but they have projected my usage forward for 2023 and taking account of the price increase in April they want to change the DD from £62 to £82 .
> As my son commented, that's a huge % increase, but when I look at what other people are paying I'm relieved that's it's not a lot bigger.



A few thoughts come to mind on a Gas only DD of £82.00 a month.
1. You are still on a fixed account paying well under the 'going rate'
2. You are extremely frugal with your gas usage and/or have other ways of keeping warm.
3. You live in a house the size of a dog kennel ? 😀


----------



## lazybloke (30 Dec 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> £18 not inc vat and standing charge  we did cook a lot for 7 adults !



Ouch. How much of that do you think was a roast dinner?
The main attraction of my roast was a lump of brisket cooked at an economical 130°C. Am sure the elec bill would have been higher for other meats.


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## jowwy (30 Dec 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> £18 not inc vat and standing charge  we did cook a lot for 7 adults !



Thats a lot of electric just for xmas dinner…….i cooked mine over two days, spread the cost and used some solar at the same time. Cooked all meat basically for free


----------



## Asa Post (30 Dec 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> A few thoughts come to mind on a Gas only DD of £82.00 a month.
> 1. You are still on a fixed account paying well under the 'going rate'
> 2. You are extremely frugal with your gas usage and/or have other ways of keeping warm.
> 3. You live in a house the size of a dog kennel ? 😀



1. I was transferred to EDF last year by Ofgem when my previous supplier went bust. There was no option to choose the type of account.
2. True. I live alone. I'm avoiding using the central heating as much as I can, and basically live in one room which has a gas fire I can use for a third of the running costs of CH. My main strategy is to wear extra clothes. I bought a fleece dressing gown with hood for £15 (it's now gone up to £25) that I wear almost all the time, and it's already paid for itself times over.
3. True... almost. It's a 3 bedroom semi, but downstairs I only have a living room and a kitchen.


----------



## SpokeyDokey (30 Dec 2022)

Managed to get a decent deal on standard Kerosene for the oil boiler.

Needed 500L to top the tank up to give us enough in reserve until October-ish.

Quote 1 - £511

Quote 2 - £473

Quote 3 - £434

All inc' VAT.

Unusual to see such a disparity tbh.

Ordered (quote 3) yesterday and it arrived today.


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## MrGrumpy (30 Dec 2022)

jowwy said:


> Thats a lot of electric just for xmas dinner…….i cooked mine over two days, spread the cost and used some solar at the same time. Cooked all meat basically for free



Got two ovens plus warming drawers and an induction hob !   

It wasn’t all spent on dinner !! Xbox and PS5 got workouts all day !! That’s what drove up the cost !


----------



## gbb (1 Jan 2023)

Well the latest bill is in. Correcting for their over estimation on the gas, its around £240 combined for the month  A fair increase on last months but perhaps no wonder....
House has been much busier with Xmas and 2 grandkids here the last week, its been colder outside, more washing and tumble drying, again, increased with the grandkids being here.
Again and again, its do-able for us, no drama but £40 a week is a big ask for many people I suspect.
Gas boiler, glad we replaced that a couple months ago, must have saved us some, and the Hive has allowed us to see real time usage, its definitely better putting the heating on at a reasonable level and leaving it there all day. Yesterday (not a cold day tbf) it was set at 20c all day but the boiler only ran for one hour and a bit...all day.


----------



## Buck (1 Jan 2023)

Our usage (according to the app) is just shy of £580 for December. (Thank goodness I built a large credit for this very reason). Gas has not been helped by the cold snap before Christmas when we were pushing £25 per day for gas and electric combined. 

We’re not excessive with the heating or otherwise but the costs mount up, especially as someone is in the house through the day, most if not everyday.


----------



## Buck (1 Jan 2023)

Yes, its not acheap house to heat/run!

3 sometimes 4.


----------



## MrGrumpy (2 Jan 2023)

Buck said:


> Our usage (according to the app) is just shy of £580 for December. (Thank goodness I built a large credit for this very reason). Gas has not been helped by the cold snap before Christmas when we were pushing £25 per day for gas and electric combined.
> 
> We’re not excessive with the heating or otherwise but the costs mount up, especially as someone is in the house through the day, most if not everyday.



Think ours is another £100 on top of yours . Again not been excessive but large houses are going to cost more ! More worried about retirement now and the energy bills lol


----------



## Buck (2 Jan 2023)

MrGrumpy said:


> Think ours is another £100 on top of yours . Again not been excessive but large houses are going to cost more ! More worried about retirement now and the energy bills lol



True. There’s a minimum amount needed and the app says that we spend £35 on “always on” items per month.


----------



## chris-suffolk (2 Jan 2023)

MrGrumpy said:


> Think ours is another £100 on top of yours . Again not been excessive but large houses are going to cost more ! More worried about retirement now and the energy bills lol



Must be a 'huge' house. Ours for Dec was £250 for a 5 bed house.


----------



## numbnuts (2 Jan 2023)

For Dec - I spent £ 63.43 - 246.78 kwh


----------



## sevenfourate (2 Jan 2023)

chris-suffolk said:


> Must be a 'huge' house. Ours for Dec was £250 for a 5 bed house.



Same for same here….


----------



## Scaleyback (2 Jan 2023)

While it can be interesting to compare it is pretty pointless isn't it ?
Energy use is so dependent on lifestyle / building / ability to pay / and many are still on a fixed contract.
I can imagine this 'unhealthy' scenario:- ' I only have a 3 bed house and I'm paying as much as his 5 bed house ' or similar.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (2 Jan 2023)

Our gas smart meter stopped working in mid Dec during cold snap. I tried to get a manual reading off it on Sat but it won’t even do that. Be interesting to see if it’s recorded anything at all when they replace it.


----------



## Buck (2 Jan 2023)

Scaleyback said:


> While it can be interesting to compare it is pretty pointless isn't it ?
> Energy use is so dependent on lifestyle / building / ability to pay / and many are still on a fixed contract.
> I can imagine this scenario:- ' I only have a 3 bed house and I'm paying as much as his 5 bed house ' or similar.



You’re right. I was thinking more along the lines of a year on year comparison being more meaningful for all.


----------



## MrGrumpy (2 Jan 2023)

chris-suffolk said:


> Must be a 'huge' house. Ours for Dec was £250 for a 5 bed house.



It’s a large 5 bed , with effectively 5 adults living in it . Two living rooms plus large dining room. Large open plan kitchen. Solar going in this month hopefully !

Also on the standard tariff , will see another rise in April . It’s big old house to heat .


----------



## gbb (3 Jan 2023)

MrGrumpy said:


> It’s a large 5 bed , with effectively 5 adults living in it . Two living rooms plus large dining room. Large open plan kitchen. Solar going in this month hopefully !
> 
> Also on the standard tariff , will see another rise in April . It’s big old house to heat .



Its inevitable the amount of people in a house will influence the bills immensely. Normally there's only 2 of us, our son has since returned home, his demands will inevitably raise the bill. Now we've had 2 grandkids here for 2 weeks, tv is on incessantly, more heating, more electric, more washing, more drying, more cooking etc etc etc. Weve seen our bill double since the last one.
Technically ours is a 4 bed, converted to 3 so still a relatively large house compared to the rabbit hutches they build now. I'm grateful it seems to be well built ( new town corporation build from the late 60s early 70s), well insulated, and perhaps importantly, mid terrace and well sheltered from the elements due to houses around us. Despite its relatively large size, historically our bills have been pretty good.


----------



## MrGrumpy (4 Jan 2023)

Don’t think my bills were that bad when we first moved to this , coming up 4yrs . £150 a month on DD for gas and electric . We even had a hot tub running . Not now with the huge increases . Just had an email that they want to increase my DD again by another £20 a month . It’s utterly crazy !!! Of course that won’t be happening, awaiting a phone call to explain that PV panels are going in a couple of weeks .


----------



## Phaeton (4 Jan 2023)

MrGrumpy said:


> Of course that won’t be happening, awaiting a phone call to explain that PV panels are going in a couple of weeks .



TBH I wouldn't bother, you're only going to get a chicken at the other end who is only going to read off their crib sheet or the flowchart & you're probably not going to achieve anything other than winding you up.


----------



## fossyant (Friday at 09:38)

December wasn't too bad, electric went up to £210 for the month from around £160 usually, and gas jumped to £170 due to the cold snap and the house being occupied and heated during the day for the last three weeks.

Electric is usually around 12-15 KWh a day (two gaming PC's contribute to about 5 KWh), but the last three weeks with Xmas etc it's been 21 KWh (conservatory heated too) - looking back a year we were averaging 40 KWh a day, so that's all good news with using less ! Pre Christmas, even in the cold snap, we were 15 KWh

Gas use looks the same in KWh terms as last year, possibly down a little peaking at 45 a day with the heating on (last 3 weeks), although those really cold days we jumped to over 80 KWh a day for 4 days. Although Autumn and Spring we drop to 20 KWh, and in summer anything from 3-5 KWh a day.

Still £600 in credit !


----------



## fossyant (Friday at 09:49)

Looking back I've got very accurate data from February last year. I started my spreadsheet from the January reading, then did a reading a month later. I was then monitoring use weekly, more recently once every two weeks as we've made the energy savings. I started looking at the gas from February also.

Feb 2022 Electricity KWh - 1500 (blimey)
Feb 2022 Gas - 1500

Dec 2022 Electricity 600 KWh (yes a third almost)
Dec 2022 Gas 1650 KWh (with the cold snap)

Just shows - Gas bill was £60ish in February, that's now £170 for roughly the same amount of juice. 

PS we were back at work too in Feb so house occupancy was actually less than the last month.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (Friday at 09:52)

We hit £123 for electric and gas last month. Highest bill yet. This is on the standard variable tarrif, I.e. max they can charge subject to cap.


----------



## MrGrumpy (Friday at 09:56)

Got my actual bill in and December was spendy on energy . £539 in total . Nov was £315 and Oct was £224 . So you can see how heating has driven the cost up massively . Very cold month . However Dec and Jan are usual peak months for me . So hopefully can try and keep a lid on things , it’s to be mild for the next while so hopefully that flows through into cheaper bills.


----------



## fossyant (Friday at 10:15)

MrGrumpy said:


> Got my actual bill in and December was spendy on energy . £539 in total . Nov was £315 and Oct was £224 . So you can see how heating has driven the cost up massively . Very cold month . However Dec and Jan are usual peak months for me . So hopefully can try and keep a lid on things , it’s to be mild for the next while so hopefully that flows through into cheaper bills.



You certainly see it in gas use as soon as it get's proper cold. As it's quite mild, it's not taking much to heat the conservatory as I work, but it took nearly 100 KWh of juice to heat in December, 50 of that being in and around Christmas. That's £30 quid for just the conservatory. At least with my energy monitoring Smart Plugs I can see where it went. 

The 'old' Christmas lights from FIL's house, just 2 silhouettes, used 35 KWh, so that cost me £11. The rest, more modern, cost less than £2 to run for a month.


----------



## Jody (Friday at 10:19)

fossyant said:


> Feb 2022 Electricity KWh - 1500 (blimey)



 Wowsers.

Sure you didn't have a farm in the cellar?


----------



## Ming the Merciless (Friday at 10:24)

Jody said:


> Wowsers.
> 
> Sure you didn't have a farm in the cellar?



Takes a lot to grow cannabis


----------



## tom73 (Friday at 10:27)

T


Ming the Merciless said:


> Takes a lot to grow cannabis



They don’t normally pay for the electric.


----------



## fossyant (Friday at 10:30)

Jody said:


> Wowsers.
> 
> Sure you didn't have a farm in the cellar?



Feckin hot tub on 24/7 ! Think about it, 2-3KW heater, say it's on a third of the time, say averaging 1KW per hour, soon mounts up to maybe 600 plus KW in a month - about £100 in old money, over £200 now if left on. Switching it off saved most of that, and I think I worked out it cost about £5 to heat up for a use. Great for a bad back, but massively in-efficient if you don't switch them off.

It's currently drained down for winter and won't be filled until March. We just left it running. We NOW switch it off, and just leave the filter ticking over using less than 50w. If we decide to use it, we switch the heating on in the morning ! I've also put additional Kingspan insulation on the lid. 

We've also stopped using the dryer - only goes on in an emergency, all clothing on an airer with a dehumdifier. It's criminal the energy we wasted.


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## Ming the Merciless (Friday at 10:38)

tom73 said:


> T
> 
> 
> They don’t normally pay for the electric.



The neighbour does though


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## Jody (Friday at 10:39)

I was talking to a friend last weekend about hot tub costs as they treat themselves to one during lock down. Apparently sold as only using 1kw per day but the actual cost ran into hundreds per month. 

I knew they used a bit of electric but didn't realise quite how much.


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## Ming the Merciless (Friday at 10:42)

Jody said:


> I was talking to a friend last weekend about hot tub costs as they treat themselves to one during lock down. Apparently sold as only using 1kw per day but the actual cost ran into hundreds per month.
> 
> I knew they used a bit of electric but didn't realise quite how much.



I pressure you mean 1 KWh per day. That’s still only around 36p per day at the current cap. Thus about £10 a month. I suspect they don’t know how much their hot tub is using.


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## Jody (Friday at 10:46)

Ming the Merciless said:


> I pressure you mean 1 KWh per day. That’s still only around 36p per day at the current cap. Thus about £10 a month. I suspect they don’t know how much their hot tub is using.



They do now. Its was sold as 1kwh per day but consumed way more.

It's now been scrapped


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## fossyant (Friday at 10:47)

Jody said:


> I was talking to a friend last weekend about hot tub costs as they treat themselves to one during lock down. Apparently sold as only using 1kw per day but the actual cost ran into hundreds per month.
> 
> I knew they used a bit of electric but didn't realise quite how much.



You are heating 1000 litres of water. During heating it will probably pull 2KWh. That can take 24 hours to heat from cold to say 38-40c, or about 2 degrees per hour. So that's 50 KWh - £15. It's then much less to maintain a temperature but it's still maybe using 10-20 KWh a day to maintain the heat, switching the heater on and off. They aren't well insulated, so adding insulation to the top helps massively. I started switching the water temperature to the minimum, which was 20c, and that kept the filter pump circulating, and it would take a good week to drop to 20c, so basically no heat needed to maintain the 20c, and only using 50w. As it got cold, I drained the tub down, and took the pump unit inside where it can dry.

TBH it's good for my back and any aches and pains, but it's a mad luxury if you leave on, just in case. You ideally need to say, OK long week, let's stick it on for Friday evening after work. You then actually use it ! They just aren't affordable with the current rates just to leave 'ticking over'.


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## Jody (Friday at 10:47)

Ming the Merciless said:


> The neighbour does though



Nah, you just bypass the meter.


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## fossyant (Friday at 10:50)

Ming the Merciless said:


> I pressure you mean 1 KWh per day. That’s still only around 36p per day at the current cap. Thus about £10 a month. I suspect they don’t know how much their hot tub is using.



I think they get mis-sold. The heaters use 2Kwh when on, and add in the bubble blower part that uses another 1KWh. If the heater is only heating half the time to maintain temperature, then it averages out to 1Kwh, but it's 24Kwh in a day !

My niece bought one during lockdown for the kids, but I do wish she'd asked me about costs before - she couldn't afford to run it. It's now punctured and a waste of £400.


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## tom73 (Friday at 10:53)

Jody said:


> Nah, you just bypass the meter.



Or nearby lamppost i've seen all sorts of mad connections and work arounds.


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## MrGrumpy (Friday at 11:02)

fossyant said:


> Feckin hot tub on 24/7 ! Think about it, 2-3KW heater, say it's on a third of the time, say averaging 1KW per hour, soon mounts up to maybe 600 plus KW in a month - about £100 in old money, over £200 now if left on. Switching it off saved most of that, and I think I worked out it cost about £5 to heat up for a use. Great for a bad back, but massively in-efficient if you don't switch them off.
> 
> It's currently drained down for winter and won't be filled until March. We just left it running. We NOW switch it off, and just leave the filter ticking over using less than 50w. If we decide to use it, we switch the heating on in the morning ! I've also put additional Kingspan insulation on the lid.
> 
> We've also stopped using the dryer - only goes on in an emergency, all clothing on an airer with a dehumdifier. It's criminal the energy we wasted.



Yep no tumble for us neither , that’s a big change from last year . Hot tub got chucked away over a year ago . Not sure if I’ll get it back out again ? Might with solar ? Interesting that it cost more to keep running rather than heating only when you needed to ? I could maybe live with that ?


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## fossyant (Friday at 11:09)

MrGrumpy said:


> Yep no tumble for us neither , that’s a big change from last year . Hot tub got chucked away over a year ago . Not sure if I’ll get it back out again ? Might with solar ? Interesting that it cost more to keep running rather than heating only when you needed to ? I could maybe live with that ?



I've popped a Smart Plug on it since Autumn, but didn't have the detailed data before. If you are to use one, I'd definitely recommend turning the heat to the minimum and then turning on when you want to use it - they aren't thermally efficient enough to keep on. I'll be monitoring the cost once we refill, but I'm not doing that until were into double figures for air temperature overnight !


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## Alex321 (Friday at 11:26)

Jody said:


> I was talking to a friend last weekend about hot tub costs as they treat themselves to one during lock down. Apparently sold as only using 1kw per day but the actual cost ran into hundreds per month.
> 
> I knew they used a bit of electric but didn't realise quite how much.



If they were sold as using only 1kWh per day, than that was blatant mis-selling.

Even the most energy-efficient ones on the market are going to use more than that.


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## MrGrumpy (Friday at 13:37)

fossyant said:


> I've popped a Smart Plug on it since Autumn, but didn't have the detailed data before. If you are to use one, I'd definitely recommend turning the heat to the minimum and then turning on when you want to use it - they aren't thermally efficient enough to keep on. I'll be monitoring the cost once we refill, but I'm not doing that until were into double figures for air temperature overnight !



Actually thought one of those wood burning ones would do me !


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## Ming the Merciless (Friday at 20:42)

It’s funny that there was a big push for central heating in the 70s. But now it’s heat just the rooms you are in. Which is how it was done since time immortal before central heating.


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## mjr (Saturday at 18:18)

Ming the Merciless said:


> since time immortal


immemorial

Heating only the rooms you're in only works well if those rooms are together and doors and walls are thick, else you lose lots of heat to the unheated rooms, possibly more than radiators in the heated rooms can emit. It will be cheaper but less efficient. Doesn't work well with the layout of my home so just as well we have efficient central heat!


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## SpokeyDokey (Saturday at 19:33)

Ming the Merciless said:


> It’s funny that there was a big push for central heating in the 70s. But now it’s heat just the rooms you are in. Which is how it was done since time immortal before central heating.



Is it?

I know no-one who just heats individual rooms.


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## Ming the Merciless (Saturday at 19:37)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Is it?
> 
> I know no-one who just heats individual rooms.



What did you do in the 1950/60/70s?


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## SpokeyDokey (Saturday at 19:42)

Ming the Merciless said:


> What did you do in the 1950/60/70s?



I read the 'now' in your second sentence as 'now'.

Was I wrong?

Maybe I should have made it clear that that was what I was referring to - apologies.


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## gbb (Saturday at 20:16)

There has been a fair bit of advice lately that just heating (and living,) in one room would be financially better if paying the bills was an issue


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## Alex321 (Saturday at 20:59)

Ming the Merciless said:


> What did you do in the 1950/60/70s?



Not really relevant to the "now it is heat just the rooms you are in".

But FWIW, we got central heating installed in the fairly early '70s. In a council house.


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## PapaZita (Tuesday at 16:41)

We’ve recently installed a smart TRV system (Drayton Wiser). It seems pretty good, and a really easy install if you already have thermostatic radiator valves. It essentially converts a simple, single zone, central heating system, into as many independent zones as you care to buy smart valves for, each running their own temperature schedules.

So, I think we can say we’re now heating individual rooms. The bedroom warms up in the morning and evening, home working rooms during the day, and the living room in the evening. I’m sure heat does leak between adjoining rooms, but they still feel cool if you wander into them at the wrong times. I wouldn’t like to say how much we’re saving, as we installed it just before the cold snap before Christmas, and burned a lot of gas that month anyway. Previously we’d turned things down as much as we could bear. I think we’re more comfortable now, but it’s a bit too early to say if we’re really using less gas to achieve that.


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## Scaleyback (Tuesday at 16:51)

PapaZita said:


> We’ve recently installed a smart TRV system (Drayton Wiser). It seems pretty good, and a really easy install if you already have thermostatic radiator valves. It essentially converts a simple, single zone, central heating system, into as many independent zones as you care to buy smart valves for, each running their own temperature schedules.
> 
> So, I think we can say we’re now heating individual rooms. The bedroom warms up in the morning and evening, home working rooms during the day, and the living room in the evening. I’m sure heat does leak between adjoining rooms, but they still feel cool if you wander into them at the wrong times. I wouldn’t like to say how much we’re saving, as we installed it just before the cold snap before Christmas, and burned a lot of gas that month anyway. Previously we’d turned things down as much as we could bear. I think we’re more comfortable now, but it’s a bit too early to say if we’re really using less gas to achieve that.



This is often the unknown with spending on energy upgrades and energy saving 'gadgets' What is the payback time and consequently does it make financial sense ? It always does if you listen to the seller/advertising blurb but it pays to be a bit cynical. 😳


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## PapaZita (Tuesday at 17:12)

Scaleyback said:


> This is often the unknown with spending on energy upgrades and energy saving 'gadgets' What is the payback time and consequently does it make financial sense ? It always does if you listen to the seller/advertising blurb but it pays to be a bit cynical. 😳



I agree. We spent about £300 on a system with four valves. I’m happy to accept that some of that was spent on comfort and convenience, rather than just a hard-nosed calculation on how much energy would be saved. One one hand, surely by not heating the unused rooms we’ll be saving some money. On the other, we’re now heating the rooms we _are_ in to a more comfortable level, because we’re not worrying about pumping heat into the rest of the house. Time will tell. 😀


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## MrGrumpy (Tuesday at 17:23)

PapaZita said:


> I agree. We spent about £300 on a system with four valves. I’m happy to accept that some of that was spent on comfort and convenience, rather than just a hard-nosed calculation on how much energy would be saved. One one hand, surely by not heating the unused rooms we’ll be saving some money. On the other, we’re now heating the rooms we _are_ in to a more comfortable level, because we’re not worrying about pumping heat into the rest of the house. Time will tell. 😀



I’ve looked at these but I would need a lot more due to number of rooms and radiators ? However I could possibly fit them upstairs only , which would create two zones ?


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## PapaZita (Tuesday at 17:43)

MrGrumpy said:


> I’ve looked at these but I would need a lot more due to number of rooms and radiators ? However I could possibly fit them upstairs only , which would create two zones ?



I don’t think fitting them just upstairs would really give two zones, as then you’d have no control over the downstairs rooms. We thought about the rooms where we wanted different temperatures at different times, and fitted the valves there. The heat then follows us around during the day. It’s just the two of us, so we only fitted a valve in one bedroom. Spare bedrooms, bathroom, hallway, etc, remain on their old TRVs, so they’ll get heat whenever one of the smart valves in another room is calling for it, but only ever up to the limit set by the old TRV. As those aren’t rooms we’re using much, they’re set low anyway. It’s about £40 for each additional valve if we decide we need more. I’m sure others will need more valves than we do, but you certainly shouldn’t assume that you’ll need to replace every TRV in your house.


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## MrGrumpy (Tuesday at 17:49)

The only problem I see with this is you would need to close if doors to rooms not heated etc . Not really possible to do that in our house . Living room only room closed off all others open for dog to wonder . Upstairs we could maybe do something . However I’ve opted to just keep the thermostat low at 18 max . Again I’m. It sure about that I may need to experiment. Fancied turning it up a bit more. Feel if I allow the house to cool too much it takes more energy to get back to square one ?


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## PapaZita (Tuesday at 17:51)

MrGrumpy said:


> The only problem I see with this is you would need to close if doors to rooms not heated etc .



This is true.


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