# Need some guidance please



## Oldfentiger (6 Oct 2016)

Because of where we live, it's impossible for the missus and I to go out for a ride from home. She's struggling with the steep climbs we have locally.
For this reason we're thinking about an ebike to give her some assistance.
We've seen a nicely styled bike, but we both haven't the knowledge to know whether it's worth the outlay, or is it all fur coat and no knickers?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/112150363577?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDXT

So, what's the verdict?


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## Pale Rider (7 Oct 2016)

I can't see much in the way of specs online, but the bike looks nicely made and rear hub motor technology is well-proven so it should be reliable.

Hub motor bikes are generally cheaper than crank drives, but most of those are now more than £2K for a good make.

Benelli may not be known for ebikes but could be described as a premium brand, so £1,600 for this bike looks about right.

Going up in price, the Raleigh Motus at £2K has the Bosch crank drive and is a similar style, although it will be a bit heavier with lights, pavement lock, carrier, and an all but useless cheapo suspension fork.

Going down in price puts you in Chinese 'no name' territory, although you could have a look at the Kudos Stealth/Alamo.

It's closer in style to the Benelli - hub motor, narrow tyres, integrated battery, plain fork, and lightweight - for an ebike.

Kudos has been around for a while, and I am acquainted with Dave who owns the company.

He tells me, quite fairly, his latest bikes are the best quality he's managed to source from China.

Inevitably, the bike bits and finish will be inferior to the Benelli, but you do get a Samsung battery.

It's a decent package for £935.

Dave will usually send a bike 'on approval', enabling you to have a brief go on it in dry conditions.

As a general point, I think the lighter weight of the Benelli/Kudos will suit Mrs Oft.

The likes of the Motus require a firm hand when mounting and dismounting to prevent them toppling, and they are harder work at obstacles such as restricting gates on cycle paths.

http://www.kudoscycles.com/product_info.php?cPath=1&products_id=353

https://www.evanscycles.com/raleigh...esvaid=50080&gclid=CLS-m4qFyM8CFc-ZGwodiP4Hng


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## Oldfentiger (7 Oct 2016)

Thanks Rob.
Great information


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## robgul (7 Oct 2016)

I am looking at a different solution for assistance - fitting a motorised wheel to an existing steel-framed bike. Cost is about £400 for either front or rear wheel version.

The supplier that comes recommended from several sources is http://www.electricbikeconversions.co.uk - I'm having a go on a front wheel demo next week (that our local shop is fitting for a customer)

Rob


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## Oldfentiger (7 Oct 2016)

We found a place in Clitheroe, listed as a Benelli dealer, so popped in at lunchtime for a gander.
Nice chap to talk to. He offered to let us have the demo bike for a week if we wanted!!
So chucked it in the car and brought it home.
Just topping up the battery now, then I might go and give it a test.
Just to make sure the gears are working right for the Nearest and Dearest


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## Pale Rider (7 Oct 2016)

Oldfentiger said:


> We found a place in Clitheroe, listed as a Benelli dealer, so popped in at lunchtime for a gander.
> Nice chap to talk to. He offered to let us have the demo bike for a week if we wanted!!
> So chucked it in the car and brought it home.
> Just topping up the battery now, then I might go and give it a test.
> Just to make sure the gears are working right for the Nearest and Dearest



Well done, getting a decent demo on any bike can be hard, getting a decent demo on an ebike even harder.

All the legal ones offer roughly the same amount of grunt.

If the Benelli doesn't suit for size or style, it will give you a good idea of what an ebike is capable of so you will know if it's worth looking elsewhere.


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## steveindenmark (7 Oct 2016)

I would like to know how you get on with it. Its a smashing looking electric bike.


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## Oldfentiger (7 Oct 2016)

I gave it a decent test this afternoon and ended up quite impressed.
It was my first ever ride on an ebike so I have nothing to compare it with.
I did around 5 miles, taking in four hard climbs. 
On the steepest at around 17%, I had to pedal quite hard to get to the top.
That's a good thing though as Mrs OFT still wants to work at getting fitter and losing some weight.
The steepish rake on the forks gives nice quick steering with the wide bars keeping it accurate.
The hydraulic disc brakes are superb. Powerful with fine modulation.
The 700x32 road tyres mean that pedalling along the flat bits at a reasonable pace is not too difficult even with no electrical assistance.

We have a 25 mile ride planned tomorrow, including some climbs that previously defeated her, we'll await the managements verdict.
I have the feeling this exercise will be costing money


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## Pale Rider (7 Oct 2016)

Having to push fairly hard to get up 17 percent is about what I'd expect.

As you/the Mrs get to know the bike better, you may find there's a cadence sweet spot for climbing which teases the most power out of the motor.

'Climb at your own pace' works well riding with an ebiker as it does riding with pushbikers.

My next few words of advice will be more relevant if you buy the bike, but it's worth having a think about a rear wheel puncture in the unhappy event you get one tomorrow.

The motor connection is underneath the chainstay - it just pulls apart.

However, on the motor side the cable is cable tied to the frame, so to remove the wheel completely you would need to snip the cable tie.

Looks like a quick release axle, so you will be able to release the wheel sufficiently to remove the tyre and tube.

However you look at it, fixing a flat with the wheel tethered to the bike by a short bit of cable will be more difficult.

If you buy the bike, it would be a good idea to snip the cable tie, then fit a wrap around chainstay protector which will keep the cable in order, but be easy to remove to fix a puncture.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Lezyne-Too...detail-softlines&pd_rd_r=S8AW3STXJVN8W26MBKN3


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## Oldfentiger (7 Oct 2016)

Thanks. Advice gratefully received.
I'll have a close look tomorrow to see what would be involved.


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## Pale Rider (8 Oct 2016)

robgul said:


> I am looking at a different solution for assistance - fitting a motorised wheel to an existing steel-framed bike. Cost is about £400 for either front or rear wheel version.
> 
> The supplier that comes recommended from several sources is http://www.electricbikeconversions.co.uk - I'm having a go on a front wheel demo next week (that our local shop is fitting for a customer)
> 
> Rob



I see the company offer two front wheel conversions - a 500w and a 250w.

Obviously, we don't know which one you will be trying but you may like to know the difference.

The 500w is a direct drive motor, which has advantages and disadvantages.

Direct drive motors are whisper quiet, but they lack torque which is a problem for climbing.

That's why it's 500w - a 250w direct drive motor would be all but useless on a bicycle.

Another plus for direct drives is they are better for speed on the flat - assuming you have the legs to wind it up and the software ignores the legal cut-off requirement of 15.5mph/25km/h.

The 250w motor is geared which makes it good for climbing, but less good for speed.


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## Oldfentiger (10 Oct 2016)

Update after our ride on Saturday........

We climbed up over Newchurch then down into Barley, followed by the long haul upwards along the south side of Pendle hill.
After the long descent into Downham there was a brief blast along the A59 before turning left towards Sabden. There followed the tough climb up over the Nick of Pendle, down into Sabden, then escape the hole in which Sabden sits via what is locally known as White Hill.
A few more undulations saw us back home, having covered 19.4 miles with 2,200 ft climbed.

Pros:
'Er indoors got over some hills which she couldn't manage previously, meaning that it's possible for us both to ride out from home together.
I had my own private derny bike to help me into the headwind on the A59.

Cons:
The bike only comes in one size, which is too big for her.
It's heavy.
She thought that the hub drive didn't have enough control. Too much assistance on the flat even at the lowest setting. Slight headwind coupled with the weight had her struggling without assistance.
I got tired of being overtaken on the climbs with her shouting encouragements such as "come on, tosser, dig in"!

Verdict - we've resolved to carry on with the research before we commit. Wifey liked the freedom she would have to escape our valley, but the Benelli is not the right tool in this instance.


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## ufkacbln (10 Oct 2016)

Pale Rider said:


> I see the company offer two front wheel conversions - a 500w and a 250w.
> 
> Obviously, we don't know which one you will be trying but you may like to know the difference.
> 
> ...




The problem will be the legality of the machine

Speed is not the only factor.

You are "allowed" 250W, the 500W conversion is not road legal


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## ufkacbln (10 Oct 2016)

Oldfentiger said:


> Update after our ride on Saturday........
> 
> We climbed up over Newchurch then down into Barley, followed by the long haul upwards along the south side of Pendle hill.
> After the long descent into Downham there was a brief blast along the A59 before turning left towards Sabden. There followed the tough climb up over the Nick of Pendle, down into Sabden, then escape the hole in which Sabden sits via what is locally known as White Hill.
> ...



There are some conversions / bikes that are controlled by the pedal input and allow a variation of the power, there is no throttle (or you can fit an over-ride throttle)

We have a Bionx on my wife's trike (other options are available)

You "dial in" the assistance you wish (25%, 50%, 100%, 200%) and the motor then provides that much assistance. It works with an internal sensor reading the pressure you put on the pedals and providing a matched input. Use of gears further "tailors" the input as the sensor pressure changes with gear

It suits us because when she is feeling OK she can ride the bike without power, odr at 25% and as she tires crank up the assistance.

The downside is that it is a bit like gears, sometimes (for instance on hills) being in the right selection as you approach is better than trying to change once yo are on the hill


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## Pale Rider (10 Oct 2016)

Oldfentiger said:


> Update after our ride on Saturday........
> 
> We climbed up over Newchurch then down into Barley, followed by the long haul upwards along the south side of Pendle hill.
> After the long descent into Downham there was a brief blast along the A59 before turning left towards Sabden. There followed the tough climb up over the Nick of Pendle, down into Sabden, then escape the hole in which Sabden sits via what is locally known as White Hill.
> ...



The control of most hub bikes is crude in comparison to crank drives.

A crank drive has road speed, cadence, and torque sensors - if the software is up to snuff they give a very natural ride.

No throttle, so you just set the assistance level and get on with it.

My Bosch bikes work that way, on the rides we've done together I haven't touched the controls, so I change down/push harder up hills and into headwinds the same as a push biker.

Other crank drives which work well are made by Yamaha and Shimano.

A bike you could try next is the Lithium/Shimano ebike offered by Evans.

It comes in three sizes and is reasonable value at £1,800.

A couple of other makes to consider are Cube and KTM, both use the Bosch system and their bikes are also available in different sizes.

One problem with all of them is common to the Benelli - weight.

There's no easy answer to that, but the smooth and natural ride of a crank drive might make the lardiness easier for Mrs Oft to put up with.

https://www.evanscycles.com/pinnacle-lithium-ion-2017-electric-bike-EV267144


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## Nibor (10 Oct 2016)

Blood Sweat and Gears in Accrington has a KTM ebike it is full suspension but he will let you have a go and it will give you the feel of a crank drive ebike. They are on 01254233948. Closed Monday though


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## Oldfentiger (10 Oct 2016)

She has ordered a Haibike.
A bit more expensive, but I'm happy that she's chosen a quality bike with the right kit (Bosch).
Thanks for all the input. Most helpful.


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## Pale Rider (10 Oct 2016)

Oldfentiger said:


> She has ordered a Haibike.
> A bit more expensive, but I'm happy that she's chosen a quality bike with the right kit (Bosch).
> Thanks for all the input. Most helpful.



Nice, and certainly about as good an ebike as is currently available.

Another advantage of crank drives is they are a standard bike either side of the motor.

All the bits - brakes, wheels, gears, fork, etc - are by mainstream makers and easily serviceable or replaceable,

Quick release both ends - assuming you are having derailers - so fixing a puncture is the same as an ordinary bike.

Reliability can never be guaranteed, but Bosch has made more than a million crank drive motors - they made a gold one to mark the milestone.

That's an awful lot for a niche product, and you rarely hear of the motors giving much bother.

Thousands of problem-free miles on my two.

Hopefully the weight of the Haibike won't bother the Mrs too much.

A bit more would make no difference, so she can now carry your sarnies as well as her own.


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