# hangers-on (grrrrrrrrr)



## the_bing (25 Jul 2011)

myself and my biking buddy have recently completed a distance ride for charity. All well and good, we even knocked 20 minutes off our time from last year. On the whole it was a good day, easy ride through nice countryside, all good.

however (and my reason for posting), after about 30-40 miles we picked up a tail.

now, me and my mate ride well together, taking turns at the front, we're both evenly paced and both enthusiastic. really, it's a great partnership.

but on this ride, we ended up with 2 guys on my tail slip-streaming. i know on these rides there's plenty of people so we all get stuck behind someone to begin with but after 30-40 miles everyone was spread out. we swapped positions and they stuck on my mates tail. all in all, they tailed us for a good 6-7 miles.

by which time i was getting the hump. we tried to lose them by overtaking other cyclists to put some people between us but no, they just overtook them and sat back on our tail. we lost them on the hills (we eat hills for breakfast) only for them to rejoin us. i was nearly gonna turn round and give 'em a piece of my mind but after one last push we lost 'em. it was a charity ride, after all, but it is annoying.

now, i'm not the worlds authority on cycling etiquette but this isn't the done thing, is it? even if it's unspoken, the least they could do is pop in front to take some strain for a bit or else back off or overtake and keep going?


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## ianrauk (25 Jul 2011)

Why didn't you just ask if they minded taking the lead for a bit rather then sitting there stewing about it?


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## gaz (25 Jul 2011)

If you don't ask, you don't get.


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## adds21 (25 Jul 2011)

Why did you find it annoying?

The reason I ask is that I'm not sure it matters does it? I can see that it might be annoying if they didn't take their turn at the front, but did you ask them to? Maybe they just weren't aware you wanted them to? Maybe they just didn't have the legs to overtake you, and feel confident they wouldn't hold you up.

I rather suspect your fellow had no idea he was causing annoyance, especially if you didn’t take the time to have a chat to him.


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## Beebo (25 Jul 2011)

It sounds like they were selfish, but maybe they werent as strong as you guys? 

It would have been nice if they'd taken their turn to lead, but you would have shared the work with your mate anyway so you lost nothing by giving them a tow.

All they achieved was to make you angry. Next time take the moral high ground, you're doing the work and getting the benefit of the extra effort, they are free loading off you.

Of course, if it was a race then you have a right to be angry.


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## mickle (25 Jul 2011)

Your anger is misplaced, by tailing you they were reducing the vacuum generated by your passage through the air - reducing the amount of energy required to maintain your speed or making you go faster.

You ungrateful wretch.


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## monnet (25 Jul 2011)

I completely empathise with the OP. I've had people drafting me when I'm out on my own, with mates etc and whilst I probably shouldn't mind, I do. I think it's much the same as someone squeezing onto the end of the table you've got at a pub. There's nothing wrong with it per se, but it just feels socially intrusive. I acknowledge it's a difficult thing to judge, if I catch someone but can't really go past them I'll try to have a chat with them. If they're forthcoming, I'll ride with them for a bit. If not, I'll just drop off and do my own thing. 

I had one guy who seemed to think that sitting behind me and my mate as we were chatting was perfectly fine, yet he didn't want to get involved with working or talking at all. It was awkward as I'd rather not have someone listening into my conversation. In the end we just worked him over, in the name of training - riding in single file I held second spot and slowed down a little while my mate at the front put the power down once a sizeable gap had opened up, I sprinted across it. Once I was back on, I went to the front and opened the gap whil my mate soft tapped and then sprinted across. A couple of miles of that and he dropped off. Not nice but then when I go to the pub I'd find it irritating if someone just came and stood next to me while I was chatting to mates.


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## endoman (25 Jul 2011)

other side of the coin, I'm doing York 100 in a few weeks, all mates now dropped out, so will be on my own. 

Would much prefer to ride chunks of it as part of a group, happy to do my bit and take turns at the front etc. Do I just play it by ear as I ride along? First time I've done any type of event


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## HLaB (25 Jul 2011)

I must admit that on a few rides I've been on I've been too busy concentrating on what is in front of me to notice folk tailing on , its not till I've started to tire and they've came past and told me to tag on  I've noticed. Other times when folk don't have the decency to come through I've upped the pace and dropped them.


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## 2Loose (25 Jul 2011)

I have never really thought about this, sometimes I have slowly caught people up and doubted if I could pass and stay in front, so have stayed behind...out of politeness. 

I now realise how rude I must have seemed.


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## lulubel (25 Jul 2011)

I don't have a problem with people who stay behind, as long as they stay at least 5-10 metres behind. But if they get right on my wheel, it affects the way I ride. As others have pointed out on this forum recently, you have to be careful when someone is drafting you that you don't do anything that could make you slow down quickly enough that they can't avoid hitting you. I can be a bit erratic at times, especially when I'm getting tired, and I don't particularly want to be involved in a crash, so I tend to slow down if someone just turns up and gets on my wheel, wait for them to go past and open a gap, and then carry on as I was.


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## 400bhp (25 Jul 2011)

Get a grip.

Use your mouth to communicate.


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## NormanD (25 Jul 2011)

Eat large amounts of baked beans mixed with brussel sprouts the night before, you'll be amazed that no one will hang behind you for too long, just pre warn your mate though  

I've never had a problem with anyone hanging on behind me, I've done a number of charity events where someone has latched on, I work at my own pace, so whether someone is behind me or in front of me, I'm still going to go at that pace, I'd rather be out front than hanging on to someones wheel


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## Rob3rt (25 Jul 2011)

Either tell them to **** off or drop them! Simple!


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## chillyuk (25 Jul 2011)

I sometimes come up behind people but lack the strength to go past. In these circumstances I generally drop back 50 yards as I think it rude to hitch a lift.


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## fossyant (25 Jul 2011)

It's a charity ride, there will be loads of folk riding. If they won't talk, then you are best dropping them, or at least if they ask can they tag on.


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## steve52 (25 Jul 2011)

why are you botherd by it if there only able to wheel suck there saying you are stronger than me?


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## screenman (25 Jul 2011)

Eat hills for breakfast, what professional team do you ride for. Chill, turn round smile to them and say hi, give them a hand to cover some miles. Charity racers, they do my head in.


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## monnet (25 Jul 2011)

Agree, on a charity ride, I would expect everyone to be chatting and people to be riding on my wheel. It's when I'm out alone or with a couple of friends that unsolicited drafting becomes annoying. Agree with Lulubel about the safety aspect too, clubmates are generally predictable (and I know who the bad wheels are) but I'd rather not take a chance with people I don't know - it's bad enough in races.

A mate of mine had some clown tag on the back of him while he was doing a '25'. He turned round and told this guy he was racing, hence the number, and could he drop off a bit or shoot up the road. The response was 'I'm just out for a ride', I suppose there are socially backward people in all walks of life.


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## byegad (25 Jul 2011)

I can't see why you are so annoyed, but if they are very close behind and won't take the hint to lead for a while, then...


A good old hawk and spit is all it takes!


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## albion (25 Jul 2011)

If I pass someone slow I speed up whilst passing.Yet if they are close in speed I usually ease off to let them tuck in if they wish.

With all this sacrificial politeness about I'm now curious as to how many prefer to just gruel it alone.


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## Wightdragon (25 Jul 2011)

I had someone on the mega meon ride tail me up a steep hill. He thanked me at the top for pulling him up and then scooted off before I got my legs back. I did think that was a bit off.


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## ManiaMuse (25 Jul 2011)

If someone is riding at the speed I want to cruise at why should I overtake them? 

I'll be nice and give them a good bike length just in case they suddenly stop or something, but honestly I don't see what the problem is.


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## Red Light (25 Jul 2011)

As Mickle said, them drafting actually gives you an advantage so what are you complaining about?


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## HLaB (25 Jul 2011)

ManiaMuse said:


> If someone is riding at the speed I want to cruise at why should I overtake them?



Etiquette, its only fair to return the favour and provide them with shelter


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## amaferanga (25 Jul 2011)

Bad form just to sit on someone's wheel like that. They should at least have offered to do some work. If they really couldn't then they should have let the guys in front know - chances are if they'd have been up front and said they can sit on, but going to the front would probably slow you down then you'd have said fair enough and just got on with your riding (once you'd made sure they weren't completely incompetent bike riders of course).

And having someone sit on your wheel doesn't make a significant positive difference to your speed - the benefit is 99.9% in favour of the guy behind.


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## mickle (25 Jul 2011)

amaferanga said:


> Bad form just to sit on someone's wheel like that. They should at least have offered to do some work. If they really couldn't then they should have let the guys in front know - chances are if they'd have been up front and said they can sit on, but going to the front would probably slow you down then you'd have said fair enough and just got on with your riding (once you'd made sure they weren't completely incompetent bike riders of course).
> 
> And having someone sit on your wheel doesn't make a significant positive difference to your speed - the benefit is 99.9% in favour of the guy behind.




99.9%? Really? You know this how?


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## seadragonpisces (25 Jul 2011)

as mentioned before, its a charity ride so dont take it so seriously. what i would do is just stop and then make them come past you and then glare at them to let them know that you think they are being t@@ts :-)


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## gaz (25 Jul 2011)

If you can climb so well and they caught you on the descent, then you must be slow down hill!!
Better get back out on the bike and practice those descents!


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## peelywally (26 Jul 2011)

its the schleck bros


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## on the road (26 Jul 2011)

I normally don't like anyone trying to draft me but on charity rides or other mass rides I make an exception, I will try to get on someones wheel and it's for them to try to lose me while someone might try to get on to my wheel and it's for me to try and lose them, makes it more fun. But that tends to be the thinking of most cyclists on these rides so it's possible that that might have been the thinking of those cyclists.


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## on the road (26 Jul 2011)

This reminds me of a ride I done the other week. On the way home after a long ride and turning on to the main road I notice a cyclist behind me, when I stopped at the traffic lights it gave him a chance to catch up and he almost did only for me to take a wrong turn and then to take a detour to find a tree  

That gave him chance to get a long way ahead of me but I caught up and overtook him, then I heard him changing gears and speeding up and then sat on my wheel, I was doing 25mph then so I slow down to 16mph, he's still there, 14mph and he's still there, 13mph and he still there, 12mph, still there, 11mph, still there, Ok let's try 10mph, he's still there  

But he eventually got the message and decided that 10mph was to slow for him, I was about to slow down even further to see what he done.


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## on the road (26 Jul 2011)

TheMadCyclist said:


> if you want someone to take a turn at the front, just move out into the middle of the road, flick your elbow and let them come up on the inside, then tuck in behind them.


I actually did do that but he refused to budge. I think he's been watching the TDF


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## marzjennings (26 Jul 2011)

I don't mind being drafted, they have zero impact on my egress and I feel there's a small compliment to me that someone else wants to see if they can keep up. As a big guy (6'4", 16 stone) I get a lot of people drafting me, friends and strangers. Every now and then I'll test a rider who's drafting me, see if they can still hang if I roll it up to 30mph and hold it there for a few mins.


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## HLaB (26 Jul 2011)

on the road said:


> This reminds me of a ride I done the other week. On the way home after a long ride and turning on to the main road I notice a cyclist behind me, when I stopped at the traffic lights it gave him a chance to catch up and he almost did only for me to take a wrong turn and then to take a detour to find a tree
> 
> That gave him chance to get a long way ahead of me but I caught up and overtook him, then I heard him changing gears and speeding up and then sat on my wheel, I was doing 25mph then so I slow down to 16mph, he's still there, 14mph and he's still there, 13mph and he still there, 12mph, still there, 11mph, still there, Ok let's try 10mph, he's still there
> 
> But he eventually got the message and decided that 10mph was to slow for him, I was about to slow down even further to see what he done.




LOL, that reminds me of a sportive I was doing, I don't know if the chap had been behind me long or had just closed the gap on the long climb up the Moorfoot hills. I almost instantly changed up and accelerated for the long descent, thats when I heard 'Oh Bugger'. I'm not the fastest downhill but amazingly nobody overtook and when I looked behind, they was nbody there


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## Christopher (26 Jul 2011)

Had a wheelsucker this morning. Totally ignored my greeting and then sat right on my wheel. I thought: right, game on you leech. Rode as hard as I could for a half mile and turned around to see no-one there - although it is more likely he turned off at a junction. I was about to sit up and even stop to make him do some work.


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## amaferanga (26 Jul 2011)

mickle said:


> 99.9%? Really? You know this how?




I read it on the internet. If you disagree then please enlighten me as to just how much you would benefit from having someone sat on your wheel. How many Watts would you save by having someone sat on your wheel compared to the Watts saved by the person sat on your wheel at say 20mph?


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## colly (26 Jul 2011)

Doesn't bother me at all if someone is behind me. If they haven't the legs to get past or even if they are just freeloading it costs me nothing. 

What does irritate is if someone zooms past and a few yards on runs out of steam and slows right down so I *have* to go past to maintain pace. Only for exactly the same thing to happen again. 

If they come round and keep the pace up that's great though.

In fact last Sunday I was out to the west of Harrogate and pushing up a long steep hill and a bloke came round like I was standing still.	
'Good for him' I thought 'Good climber' 50 yds on he was out of the saddle wrestling his bike trying to turn gear far to big. I twiddle past and saying nothing but 100 yds later he had found the small gears and came round again grunting and puffing like a train. Still twiddling, I passed him just near the top as even the small gears became to much for him..

I though better of saying something about pacing yourself.


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## DrSquirrel (26 Jul 2011)

Pull your shorts down to show some major arse crack (probably only work man v man) and see how long they want to follow that for...

make some immitation fart sounds as well - might think you're going to cack on them


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## al-fresco (26 Jul 2011)

First rule of Italian riding "What's behind you doesn't matter!"


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## DrSquirrel (26 Jul 2011)

Is a hanger-on like a cling-on?


Maybe time to wax between the gaps


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## 4F (26 Jul 2011)

Eat hills for breakfast yet get caught on the flats ? Sounds like you need to mtfu with some interval sprint training.   

I don't find it an issue and would engage chat with them rather than stew over it


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## Jezston (26 Jul 2011)

As an aside as I don't have much experience of this, but is drafting not a bit dangerous? I'm not sure I'd be happy with someone inches behind me as if I have to brake suddenly he's going to smack right into the back of me
... or if I go over ...


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## mickle (26 Jul 2011)

amaferanga said:


> I read it on the internet. If you disagree then please enlighten me as to just how much you would benefit from having someone sat on your wheel. How many Watts would you save by having someone sat on your wheel compared to the Watts saved by the person sat on your wheel at say 20mph?



I merely claimed that there was an advantage for the rider being drafted - which is a true fact.

You said the advantage was insignificant and claimed a figure of 99.9% - Which is clearly bogus. 

Convention dictates that it's your job to provide the evidence for your assersion - or withdraw it.


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## Red Light (26 Jul 2011)

DrSquirrel said:


> Is a hanger-on like a cling-on?



You will die for that P'tak!


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## Red Light (26 Jul 2011)

mickle said:


> I merely claimed that there was an advantage for the rider being drafted - which is a true fact.
> 
> You said the advantage was insignificant and claimed a figure of 99.9% - Which is clearly bogus.
> 
> Convention dictates that it's your job to provide the evidence for your assersion - or withdraw it.



I don't know the evidence on which is based but AIUI the conventional cycling wisdom is the front rider gets a 5% advantage, ther rear a 30% advantage.


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## Angelfishsolo (26 Jul 2011)

As this was a charity ride would you expect the riders to know the etiquette? The MTB Marathons I do publish a list of "10 commandments" which include rules of etiquette. As it is not a race does it really matter anyway?


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## DrSquirrel (26 Jul 2011)

Red Light said:


> You will die for that P'tak!



I thought the arse waxing would explain that comment... weird star trek fanboi


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## amaferanga (26 Jul 2011)

mickle said:


> I merely claimed that there was an advantage for the rider being drafted - which is a true fact.
> 
> You said the advantage was insignificant and claimed a figure of 99.9% - Which is clearly bogus.
> 
> Convention dictates that it's your job to provide the evidence for your assersion - or withdraw it.




What convention is that - silly Cyclechat forum convention?

So I made up the 99.9% bit, but stand by my claim that the benefit to the rider in front is insignificant (at the sort of speeds we're talking about at least). 

So you were the one that claimed there was an advantage so please tell me what that advantage is in real terms? Watts saved by the rider in front when travelling at 20mph will do.


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## oldroadman (26 Jul 2011)

Beebo said:


> It sounds like they were selfish, but maybe they werent as strong as you guys?
> 
> It would have been nice if they'd taken their turn to lead, but you would have shared the work with your mate anyway so you lost nothing by giving them a tow.
> 
> ...



Why, it's a legitimate tactic, and the counter is a working over to get them dropped. If you can't then they outsprint you. Perfectly normal sprinter's move. It's called racing, which is not about the strongest always winning, but the smartest having a chance if they can handle the attacks!


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## amaferanga (26 Jul 2011)

mickle said:


> I merely claimed that there was an advantage for the rider being drafted - which is a true fact.
> 
> You said the advantage was insignificant and claimed a figure of 99.9% - Which is clearly bogus.
> 
> Convention dictates that it's your job to provide the evidence for your assersion - or withdraw it.



here you go


Apparent 9W saving for a rider pushing a modest 300W plus at around 45-50km/h. Translate that to twiddle dee and twiddle dum on a charity ride pushing something like 200W at 15mph and it becomes pretty insignificant - a couple of Watts. Compare that with the benefit to the drafting rider of around 40W.


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## mickle (26 Jul 2011)

amaferanga said:


> What convention is that - silly Cyclechat forum convention?
> 
> So I made up the 99.9% bit, but stand by my claim that the benefit to the rider in front is insignificant (at the sort of speeds we're talking about at least).
> 
> So you were the one that claimed there was an advantage so please tell me what that advantage is in real terms? Watts saved by the rider in front when travelling at 20mph will do.



I have no idea what the advantage is - I only know is that there is one - I made no claims as to the significance or otherwise of the advantage since my statement didn't require a figure - I simply pointed out that there is a benefit to the lead rider.

It was you that made up a bogus number. Thanks for acknowledging it.


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## mickle (26 Jul 2011)

amaferanga said:


> here you go
> 
> 
> Apparent 9W saving for a rider pushing a modest 300W plus at around 45-50km/h. Translate that to twiddle dee and twiddle dum on a charity ride pushing something like 200W at 15mph and it becomes pretty insignificant - a couple of Watts. Compare that with the benefit to the drafting rider of around 40W.



Great.


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## mickle (26 Jul 2011)

So in the context of the discussion - about 1% ? Interesting, thanks for that.


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## screenman (26 Jul 2011)

A modest 300w I think not.


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## 2Loose (26 Jul 2011)

Jezston said:


> As an aside as I don't have much experience of this, but is drafting not a bit dangerous? I'm not sure I'd be happy with someone inches behind me as if I have to brake suddenly he's going to smack right into the back of me
> ... or if I go over ...



You don't need to be inches away, even I noticed the effect on our last ride Jezston and I was a couple of feet back and slightly offset, but there was definitely as sweet spot.


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## John the Monkey (26 Jul 2011)

albion said:


> With all this sacrificial politeness about I'm now curious as to how many prefer to just gruel it alone.



/raises hand

Random folk latching on...I don't know their skill level, and they don't know mine. I suspect, if they need a tow from a fat bloke on a tourer, it's not that high...


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## mickle (26 Jul 2011)

I find it's very fifficult to draft on this:






I just can't seem to get close enough...


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## fossyant (26 Jul 2011)

Now let me tell you a story, all true. Sit back, grab a cuppa....  

Back in the late 80's and through the 90's there was a guy all the local club riders in South Manchester knew about. (The fella was from Hyde/Tameside) He would ride around at about 10-12 mph, in jeans and a Raleigh road top. He wasn't all quite there, and I'll explain.

We all knew, that if you passed him, he'd suddenly wheelsuck you. He'd never talk, would never pass, or respond to any 'hellos', and no matter how fast you rode he'd sit there - almost impossible to shake off - blooming pain in the ar$e when you are out on a training run.  

If you hit 20, he'd be there, 25 still there, 10 still there. Never got off your wheel. Most folk would try and avoid him.

The guy eventually progressed to cycling tights. He was usually out most days, and had been spotted as far as Ashbourne - about 40 plus miles from where he lived, so he was fairly serious, and he was out all weathers.

He never spoke to anyone, just wheel sucked.

Anyway, coming back from a TT, me driving, and my clubmate in the passenger seat, bikes on roof. We pass the guy, and he starts to try an tag on the back (of the car). My mate thought he'd be clever, and stuck his head out of the window, and told the bloke to 'f' off. I was so glad we were about to hit a 40 mph section, and even more so when the next lights were green.  

The fella is a bit of a legend (or leg end) in this area. Not seen him for some time though.


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## the_bing (27 Jul 2011)

flinkin blip didn't think there'd be this many replies!

hmmm, i guess some of you guys are right, i shouldn't take it so seriously (esp on a charity ride) and just ask 'em if they wanna take the lead for a bit. i just view it as a bit of a liberty really, especially over 6 or 7 miles. i'd never do it to another rider, either on a charity ride or any other time; if i find myself tailing someone, i back off out of politeness or overtake.

don't get me wrong, i've had people tailing me before and thats fine for a short time but not over that much of a distance and thats where my annoyance came from.

still thanks for the replies, guys. gave me summat to think about anyway.


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## Red Light (27 Jul 2011)

I've just got out my copy of Bicycling Science Third Edition (written by a professor of Mechanical Engineering from MIT) which covers it all on pp198-201 with references.

The maximum gain for the lead rider is about 15%.


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## chris-s (27 Jul 2011)

I must confess to doing a bit of hanging-on on Sunday. 

I had cycled to Paris to see the end of the TDF, after the race and all the following team processions, I hacked thru the crowds, pushing the bike, up to the Arc de Triomphe. Saddled up to go around and down the Avenue Grand Armee or whatever it is called when four tour riders come around. Selfishly, I made haste and jumped in with them since they appeared to be going in my direction anyhow, two Rabobank riders, from their bike numbers one of them was Sanchez and I think the other was either Niermann or Mollema, as well as Andy Schlek (no 11) and one of his team mates whos number I didn't see. Andy got mobbed by a woman who spotted him and ran out across the street nearly knocking him off with me less than a foot off his back wheel, that could have been interesting. Fortunately he swerved to a stop and the rest rode on.

Obviously they weren't gunning it, riding a couple a-breast and weaving their way thru the traffic waving to folk as they went. A photo would have been great, but they weren't stopping, even for the lights, and my camera was in my rucksack, a friendly wave and smile of acknowlegement from them was enough to make an end to a great day, even tho it only lasted a couple of 'blocks' before they peeled off.

Chris


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## Globalti (27 Jul 2011)

I rode the Cape Argus in SA in March and there's a website where you can see and buy all the pictures afterwards. In every damned picture I can see that I had at least two riders sitting quietly on my wheel but I don't remember any South African bugger offering to give me a tow. Grrrr!


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## Jim_Noir (27 Jul 2011)

I don't mind folks doing it, had a guy do it tonight... why not it's free and doesn't cause the lead any bother... though a wee wave when I turned off would have been nice. Also safty in numbers, cars avoid you more, so it's a win win situation


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## YahudaMoon (27 Jul 2011)

6 or 7 miles lol ! its hardley a long distance , I dont understand the problem ? 60 or 70 miles maybe ?

This is my fave thread at the moment


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## the_mikey (27 Jul 2011)

What's worse, being followed or never seeing another cyclist on a 100km sportive? It happened to me, set off, following the route (even had the route on my gps so I knew I hadn't strayed off course) and didn't see another cyclist the whole time, made it to the feed station, stopped, had a drink, ate food, admired the view and then asked the question, how many people have been here already, they said 'you're the 9th, there was a group of eight here only minutes ago' , I got back on the bike and continued along the course, never did see the group of 8, and neither did I see any other cyclists until I reached the finish line.


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## fossyant (27 Jul 2011)

the_mikey said:


> What's worse, being followed or never seeing another cyclist on a 100km sportive? It happened to me, set off, following the route (even had the route on my gps so I knew I hadn't strayed off course) and didn't see another cyclist the whole time, made it to the feed station, stopped, had a drink, ate food, admired the view and then asked the question, how many people have been here already, they said 'you're the 9th, there was a group of eight here only minutes ago' , I got back on the bike and continued along the course, never did see the group of 8, and neither did I see any other cyclists until I reached the finish line.



It happens, and it's the last time I ever go out at 7:00am with the Manchester 100. The really fast guys went for it, I thought, bugger it, and followed. BUT, the group didn't work, we had about 4 that were going for it and would not let anyone work with them ?, so the group shattered. I got shelled after 35 miles - hanging on, but a slight mechanical (30 second stop) and that was it. Spent 50 miles on my own on what I really enjoyed the time before.


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