# Brompton - advice on rear fold problem after Nano conversion



## Blaugrana (22 Jun 2019)

I have had my 2009 M6R Brompton converted by Nano and it is now not folding right.

Part of the problem seems to lie with the rear of the bike, which *shouldnt* have been affected at all by the conversion, so I am stumped.

The rear wheel seems to be further from the frame than it should be and the seat post hits the stop and sits 4 inches higher than previously.

Any advice gratefully received, including ideas of places in London I could take it for them to have a look.

Thanks,

Jeff


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## alicat (22 Jun 2019)

What do Nano say about it? What happens if you just wind the stop in a bit?


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## Blaugrana (22 Jun 2019)

Thanks.

Winding the stop in didn't help. I may try again though.

My main bafflement is to *why/how*
this is occurring at all!

haven't asked Nano central yet. The London installer tweaked it after the initial conversion caused much worse fold problems. Unfortunately, they are M-F 9-5 op and not local to me so I am looking for alternatives.


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## T4tomo (22 Jun 2019)

Nano drives the front wheel doesn’t it? 

Hard to tell with out seeing, which bit of the fold isn’t working.

It may be an existing problem, that has manifested itself now, or a new problem that occurred whilst fitting the nano, but I can’t see how it’s the nano itself, as it’s just fitting a different front wheel.


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## Cycleops (22 Jun 2019)

I think you may need to take it to a Brompton specialist. Doesn't sound like it has been caused by the conversion.


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## gizmo1994 (22 Jun 2019)

It looks like the front wheel hook my not be fully engaged on the rear triangle lock position, that would stop the seat post going all the way down. Difficult to see, but is the angle of the right pedal preventing the front wheel completing the full fold? Lowering the left pedal may give the front wheel more room to move into place.


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## Blaugrana (23 Jun 2019)

Thank you all for your replies.

They are very helpful.

The front wheel hook is definitely not fully engaging - it is better than it was at first, after a trip back to the installer, but could be better. That _is_ a consequence of the conversion, as there is now a lot more going on at the front hub! I was wondering if I'd boshed something up recently and not noticed, but I think it is down to the conversion. Shows how tightly thought out the Brompton is.

The RH pedal doesn't seem to be the problem, but I can't see what is.

I spoke to the Brompton big shop in Covent Garden yesterday. Unfortunately, they won't touch conversions.

So, I think a visit to a good, Brompton-savvy mechanic is my next step. London Bike Kitchen sound good.

Thanks again for all your helpful replies.

Jeff


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## alicat (23 Jun 2019)

Good idea to go to London Bike Kitchen. I learnt how to service my Brompton there some years ago.

I would also act daft and call into the Brompton Junction without referring to their brush off on the phone. They might be able to suggest what to do without actually undertaking the work. The worst you will get is another brush off.

Lastly, give the problem back to the installer. A folding bike is no good if it won't fold.


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## Blaugrana (23 Jun 2019)

Thanks, alicat.

Sounds like a plan!

1st step would be the installer, BUT:
it is only open 9-5 Mon-Fri
location is not great
I'm not greatly impressed so far

Step 4 may be main Nano people.

Fingers crossed as maiden voyage is happening in five weeks - Bavaria.


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## Pale Rider (23 Jun 2019)

Blaugrana said:


> I spoke to the Brompton big shop in Covent Garden yesterday. Unfortunately, they won't touch conversions.



At least your motor doesn't surge.

If they'd not taken eight years to develop an electric bike that still has a design fault, you wouldn't have needed to go to a converter.

I like Brompton as a bike, but there's always been a 'we know best' arrogance about them as a company.


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## Blaugrana (23 Jun 2019)

I hadn't heard about the surging.

I was thinking of an e-Brompton, but I want an R, and they don't do them.

Haven't got round to asking whether you can fit a rack afterwards.


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## Pale Rider (23 Jun 2019)

Your Namo conversion is not cheap, but the factory e Brompton is very expensive.

It's a simple £100 hub motor and battery, no more than £500, probably less.

Charging about £1,300 more than standard bike for those bits is good business if you can get it.

Maybe if they charged a premium of £2,000 the poxy thing would work reliably,


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## berlinonaut (23 Jun 2019)

Pale Rider said:


> Your Namo conversion is not cheap, but the factory e Brompton is very expensive.
> 
> It's a simple £100 hub motor and battery, no more than £500, probably less.
> 
> ...



I think the calculation is a bit too simplistic - while it is not completely wrong personally I'd look at it with a little grain of salt...

- the Brompton electric is priced at 2595 Pounds (M2L variant)
- a standard M2L is at 975 Pounds according to the Brompton bike builder, including the carrier block. To make it comparable you would however have to add a small bag and battery lights, thus ending up at 1175 Pounds including the Brompton battery lights and a mini-O-bag, leaving out that the electric is bascially built as a black edition which would add to the price. So your ~1300 Pounds extra for the electric seems about correct.

Now let's look at the Nano:

According to their price-list the base price is 750 Pounds with a 4Ah battery and 899 Pounds with a 13Ah battery. The Brompton electric comes with a 8,55 battery, so calculationwise to make it comparable we could use something like 825 Pounds. You will need a bag fitting kit at 35 Pounds, lightening at 100 Pounds, fitting at 100 Pounds and shipping at 50 Pounds. A total of 1110 Pounds plus the basic bike - 1095 Pounds for a M2L with mini-O-bag but w/o battery lights. A final total of about 2200 Pounds.

So the price difference is in the ballpark of 400 Pounds. The differences are:

- The Brompton electric comes as black edition wether you like it or not, worth about 100-150 Pounds. It has a strengthened frame which possibly it an advantage (though I am not aware of steel Brompton frames or forks breaking on Nano bikes). It has a torque sensor in the bottom bracket which i consider to be a *huge* advantage and a major difference between the two - not available on the nano (of the aftermarket kits only ebikes.ca offers one as an option), as a spare part from Brompton it is listed at about 120 Pounds. Plus the thing comes directly from the factory, adding an emotional premium on top. Brompton has spent considerably time and money (which they have to get back) to develop a custom motor, battery and integration which hopefully leads to a very well integrated system (but also to downsides like limited choice of bags, a proprietary battery and an incompatible carrier block). However: The problem the OP is having would possibly not have raised with a Brompton electric as it would either work or it would go back to the dealer and the buyer would not scratch his head about what the root cause may be and if it may have been his fault.

- The Nano on the other hand can be retrofitted to an existing bike (which is a huge advantage), it uses any existing bag (and can use any Brompton bag in opposite to the Brompton electric), you have total freedom of battery choice regarding size and make. In general it is a pretty open system in opposite to the closed one by Brompton. The thing has been in the field for about ten years, so there's a proven track record that is works reliably. Still the parts are genuine asian parts (leading to some compromise here and there, though probably tolerable) and the build, while working well, has the aftermarket factor, being not as perfectly integrated and partly - looking at i.e. the Bosch-Adaptor - offering a _*very*_ handcrafted atmosphere (at least for my German mind ), while as an idea being again a clever solution.

Which basically means: of the 400 Pounds difference in price arguably 250-280 Pounds are already spent/justified by the additional features on the electric through torque sensor and black edition. Which lowers the "real" difference to as little as about 120 - 150 Pounds. The Nano and the Brompton electric are simply different products, more different than noticed on first look.

There are also a lot of other retrofit solutions in the market that compete with the Nano, all with different advantages and disadvantages like i.e. the Swytch which with it's currently discounted offering at 699 Pounds with a 10Ah battery at the lower end of the price range (but from my experience with it the price also comes at a price). So in general of the retrofit-solutions the Nano is one of the best ones I'd say. When starting from scratch, not owning a Brompton, the price difference to a Brompton electric is there but maybe it is not as huge as one would imagine. if you already own a Brompton it is a completely different story. But in the end I'd make my decision dependent from my needs and if possible an extended test ride with various solutions. The Brompton electric is expensive, but on the other hand most ebikes from a well known brand are, the more the folders. If you look i.e. at Tern's Vectron Q9 with the Bosch drive the list price for this is 2999.-€ while it's cheaper sibling Vectron D7i goes for 600€ less with a Chinese made Bafang drive - still a lot of money in comparison to what a non electric Tern Link is priced at...

Not in the defense of Brompton but I thous would not wholeheartedly agree with your statement about the electric: _"It's a simple £100 hub motor and battery, no more than £500, probably less."_ It may be true (but I am not at all sure about that) if you just take the materials into account but clearly not if you consider the r&d and the extra variability needed in the factory let alone the positioning in the market, astonishingly despite all delays being a early player in the electric folding range and therefore having a huge competitive advantage (and in opposite to the Nano being available worldwide w/o issues). I am still wondering why people are making these kind of moaning statements as soon as it comes to bicycles but at the same time order expensive aluminium wheels for their cars (that add no value apart from optics), buying new smartphones every two years or clothes from brands like Adidas, Nike, let alone the more luxurious branded ones...


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## berlinonaut (23 Jun 2019)

Blaugrana said:


> I was thinking of an e-Brompton, but I want an R, and they don't do them.
> Haven't got round to asking whether you can fit a rack afterwards.



You can w/o any issues. The reason why it comes w/o one at the moment is possibly saving of the additional weight and variability in production - same as why there's just black and white and just 2-speed or 6-speed. No technical reasons for that. Plus marketingwise the rack would add to the price which is already considered to be high as you can see already in this thread.


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## Blaugrana (23 Jun 2019)

Well, here's the story:

Went to London Bike Kitchen - chatted to mechanic there who inspired much confidence. I planned to go back and have them coach me through fixing up the bike.

Then on to Brompton Junction where man told me that no Brompton dealer is allowed to touch bikes with 3rd-party conversions. Ouch!

He then had a look at the bike and pointed out some major problems:
rear hinge needs replacing;
main frame needs replacing as I have over-tightened the seat post (hands up) and cracked it.

SO, I have just thrown significant money at a dead bike, which no Brompton dealer will fix.

And the Tour de Bavaria on a Nano Brompton is a goner.

Aaaaaaaaaaaggghhhh!


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## Cycleops (23 Jun 2019)

At least it's good to know what the real problems are. You haven't thrown money at a dead bike, you can transfer the conversion to another Brompton if you wish or sell it.
If you do get the repairs done you'll effectively have a new bike.


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## alicat (23 Jun 2019)

Blaugrana said:


> He then had a look at the bike and pointed out some major problems:
> rear hinge needs replacing;
> main frame needs replacing as I have over-tightened the seat post (hands up) and cracked it.



Aaaaaaaaaaaggghhhh! and triple Aaaaaaaaaaaggghhhh!


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## Blaugrana (23 Jun 2019)

Cycleops said:


> At least it's good to know what the real problems are. You haven't thrown money at a dead bike, you can transfer the conversion to another Brompton if you wish or sell it.
> If you do get the repairs done you'll effectively have a new bike.



Thanks for the positive thoughts.

I may be feeling particularly negative but the problems remain:
I still don't know why the fold isn't working.
I don't have any confidence in the person who did my Nano conversion.
I'm not sure that I would be happy with a new Brompton with my Nano kit swapped on to it, even by a different installer. In my very brief experience there were a few 'issues' and I don't know if these could be resolved.

To get my Brompton repaired I can only use non-dealers and I don't know if non-dealers are set up to replace a main frame and rear hinge.

I'm sticking with aaaagh, but thank you.


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## alicat (23 Jun 2019)

I suspect there are a fair few people who have worked on Bromptons for yonks and are competent to do the work but have chosen not to be dealers or have been rejected by Brompton because they do unauthorised conversions.

Did the Brompton Junction chappie say why the rear hinge had failed?


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## Blaugrana (23 Jun 2019)

Thanks, alicat.

Maybe I'll go back to LBK and see if they fancy replacing frame!

I've noticed some 'play' in the rear hinge for ages, but never worried about it until visiting Brompton Junction.

I'm sure the Bavarian road network will be almost as good as their cycle network...


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## alicat (23 Jun 2019)

Bit of a long way from you in Warwickshire and he might be off travelling; however I put my trust in Graham at Tiller Cycles. He is advertising an electric Brompton so he might be classed as over on the dark side. I would have confidence in him to do the work or he might be able to recommend someone closer if he's off travelling.


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## Blaugrana (23 Jun 2019)

Thank you again.

Once the dust has settled I could make a trip that far. Nano are based Leamington Spa and was thinking of going there.


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## ukoldschool (24 Jun 2019)

Blaugrana said:


> I have had my 2009 M6R Brompton converted by Nano and it is now not folding right.
> 
> Part of the problem seems to lie with the rear of the bike, which *shouldnt* have been affected at all by the conversion, so I am stumped.
> 
> ...



Am I going mad or have you put your seat down before folding the rear wheel under, and therefore the post is catching on the frame stop. Thats whats stopping your fold.... seat down is last move on the fold.
I am sure that a competent mechanic could weld up the crack in your frame (seat post tube) then grind it back down flush to save you buying a new one, they are only mild steel.


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## ukoldschool (24 Jun 2019)




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## Blaugrana (24 Jun 2019)

Thanks, ukoldschool.

Unfortunately, the fold is not due to me folding it wrong, though I am eminently capable of having done so.

The welding idea adds another possible solution - thanks.

Alicat - I've been in touch with Graham and he is confident he can sort it all. Thanks so much for the recommendation.

Jeff


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## alicat (24 Jun 2019)

Blaugrana said:


> Alicat - I've been in touch with Graham and he is confident he can sort it all. Thanks so much for the recommendation.
> 
> Jeff



That's fab. He's a great bloke. You can trust him 100% and you'll be in good hands.


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## Kell (25 Jun 2019)

Is the fold not going all the way round because one of your chain stays is catching on the frame? Is the rear end that far out?

I must admit, it looks all kind of wrong to me in the picture. The tyre is what should be butting up against the seat tube (and the main frame tube when fully folded), yet yours looks like the mudguard would hit the seat tube first. They haven't fiddled with the brakes and put the mudguard on the wrong side of the brace have they?

The other possibility - however slim - is that you're not doing it in the right order. Though if it worked before the conversion, this seems unlikely.

However, for the benefit of removing all doubt, when folding you should fold the main hinges from back to front.


Release the rear wheel and tuck it under. 

Undo the frame main hinge and swing the front end around, tucking the catch onto the drive side stay. (NB this is when the rear wheel moves into its correct position, if you put the seat down before doing this, then it won't fully fold.)

Undo the handlebar and swing this into position. 

Finally, put the seat down and this locks everything in place.

If you try and put the seat down before completing everything else, you'll find that the rear wheel hasn't tucked up fully.

When putting it up, it's almost the opposite - except I start with the handlebars, then the seat post, then the main frame hinge, then the rear wheel.

This isn't my bike, but this is where the wheel should be when fully folded.


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## Schwinnsta (25 Jun 2019)

Looking at your picture, it looks like the stop disc is out too far. It also looks like your missing the rubber stop on the bottom of the seatpost.


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## kais01 (26 Jun 2019)

yes the stop disc prematurely catches the seat tube. but it seems to me that a possible reason for this is that the rear wheel catches the bottom bracket before the bottom part of the main tube. 

why would that be? well the wheel and tyre seem of correct size. then looking att the front part of the chainstay it seems possibly shortened; collapsed and/or repaired??

the crack in the seat tube might also alter the angle and position of the seat post, causing conflict with the stop disc.

at first i would check the front part of the chainstay. 

i suspect the nano conversion per se has nothing to do with the problem.


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## kais01 (30 Jun 2019)

here is a somewhat similar situation. to make room for a 10sp cassette wheel i had to widen the rear triangle. this effectivicely shortens chainstay and seatstay, results in a squeese between tyre and bb. fold is not complete, but still ok, and nowhere near the situation of our ts.

in the second photo it is easier to see the angle i made of also the seat stay; on a stock brommie it is straight.


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## u_i (30 Jun 2019)

kais01 said:


> to make room for a 10sp cassette wheel i had to widen the rear triangle.



What is the chain slack situation for you after the fold? When I tried to mount a conventional rear derailleur on Brompton, I found that its tensioner struggled to pick up the chain slack, unlike the standard Brompton tensioner. My situation was additionally complicated though, compared to yours, by multiplying the front rings that added to the maximal slack. Have you had any issues in mounting the rear derailleur/mech?


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## Schwinnsta (1 Jul 2019)

But in the OP case just the front was modified. In your case just the rear.


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## kais01 (1 Jul 2019)

(ot) u_j, as you may see on the photos, slack chain hangs itself over the seatstay while folded, but remains tensioned around the derailer. not ideal, but it works. this is somewhat made easier by positioning the left crank rearward before the fold. start out by folding the left pedal inside the rear triangle (ditch the pump). in folded state left pedal will then end up downward, which as a side effect makes carrying the folded bike much easier. and also no more stains above the knee on your trousers

had originally planned for an extra tensioner sitting on the lower jockey wheel like steve parry or birdy, but have not got around to it..

have a long-cage dura ace derailer and a merida s1 hanger which is positioned over the wheel axle, inside right fork member, wheel dished accordingly.

hope ts soon gets his nano brommie up and running!


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## Blaugrana (1 Jul 2019)

Kell said:


> Is the fold not going all the way round because one of your chain stays is catching on the frame? Is the rear end that far out?
> 
> I must admit, it looks all kind of wrong to me in the picture. The tyre is what should be butting up against the seat tube (and the main frame tube when fully folded), yet yours looks like the mudguard would hit the seat tube first. They haven't fiddled with the brakes and put the mudguard on the wrong side of the brace have they?
> 
> ...



Thanks Kell.

I'm doing the fold right, but my rear wheel is over an inch from the main frame. Something very wrong, but I am baffled as to the cause. I hope I have not blamed installer unfairly.

Mudguard is on right. Stays not catching. 

I have now spoken to main nano people and they are being very helpful and seem willing to resolve this.

Thanks to all. 
I hadn't seen recent replies as an email notification went to spam.


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## chriscross1966 (6 Jul 2019)

ukoldschool said:


> Am I going mad or have you put your seat down before folding the rear wheel under, and therefore the post is catching on the frame stop. Thats whats stopping your fold.... seat down is last move on the fold.
> I am sure that a competent mechanic could weld up the crack in your frame (seat post tube) then grind it back down flush to save you buying a new one, they are only mild steel.


No they can't the heat from the welding buggers the brazing of the frame joints. Ive got a frame on a bike i bought that has had that happen and its horrific. The way to fix the crack is to drill a stopping hole at the end of it, make sure the tube is round then braze a small piece of slightly bigger tube over it. I also have a frame where that has been done and its fine. Don't let a welder anywhere near a Brompton, you need a proper brazer.


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## Blaugrana (6 Jul 2019)

chriscross1966 said:


> No they can't the heat from the welding buggers the brazing of the frame joints. Ive got a frame on a bike i bought that has had that happen and its horrific. The way to fix the crack is to drill a stopping hole at the end of it, make sure the tube is round then braze a small piece of slightly bigger tube over it. I also have a frame where that has been done and its fine. Don't let a welder anywhere near a Brompton, you need a proper brazer.


Thanks ukoldschool. I need to get a second opinion as to whether the main frame really is cracked. I can't see anything there.


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## Blaugrana (6 Jul 2019)

Update.

Today I took a new Brompton B75 and my converted old Brompton to Nano's main workshop. There I was welcomed by the boss and an engineer and they had a look at my old bike.

They couldn't see anything wrong with the installation or anything else to cause the folding problems. 

They then, kindly, took the Nano kit of my old Brompton and fitted it to my new B75, which I rode and folded without problems.

So, chapeau to Nano for sorting out the problem.

Thanks also to Graham for his advice and offer to fix my old Brompton.

Thanks to Velorution for suggesting a B75.

Thanks all here for your helpful contributions.

I will, in a few weeks, look at what needs to be done to the old Brompton and whether fixing it would be worthwhile.

Fingers crossed - my Bavarian Bike Bummel is back on.


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## alicat (6 Jul 2019)

Wahey, that's fab. Enjoy the BBB on your EB75.


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## ukoldschool (9 Jul 2019)

chriscross1966 said:


> No they can't the heat from the welding buggers the brazing of the frame joints. Ive got a frame on a bike i bought that has had that happen and its horrific. The way to fix the crack is to drill a stopping hole at the end of it, make sure the tube is round then braze a small piece of slightly bigger tube over it. I also have a frame where that has been done and its fine. Don't let a welder anywhere near a Brompton, you need a proper brazer.



I agree witht he hole drilled at the end of the crack, but not on the weld point unless you mean gas welding old school style? 
I've done it myself with a MIG and it didnt affect the braze at all, I was careful to only do a cm bead at a time and quench the heat (think the crack was about 3/4 inch from memory, it was a long time ago...)


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## chriscross1966 (10 Jul 2019)

Looks like whoever had a go at the one ive got was using MIG... brazing really isnt intended to be near anything that hot, theyve then tried to mig the failed joints and the frames just fallen apart.


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