# Fear of road riding



## Suttzzs (7 Apr 2012)

O/K I know there are riders out there who are fearless or dare I say foolhardy but I have a genuine fear of riding on our crowded and fast roads most of which are akin to racing tracks - Most of us drive some kind of a vehicle so we all know where I am coming from - If I rode a motorcycle I would be taught defensive driving but on a bicycle I receive nothing - once I get onto a road I am on my own - other vehicles come speeding up behind me and each time I wait for the crash as they come so close to me....Cycle paths are great but unfortunately there are none within miles of where I live.

High visibility vest + high viz helmet don't seem to make my prescence any more noticeable - has any body got any tips to boost my confidence to allay this fear of other vehicles....I live in daily fear each time I venture onto these dreadfully crowded roads......Self preservation has taken a firm hold of my cycling exploits.......I love cycling but the fear is taking that pleasure away from me.......Cheers....Suttzzs.


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## Arch (7 Apr 2012)

Suttzzs said:


> If I rode a motorcycle I would be taught defensive driving but on a bicycle I receive nothing


 
You can teach yourself though.

Buy and read cyclecraft.

It's defensive riding for cyclists. Some of it is plain sense, some a little more counterintuitive until you understand it. Like riding further out to get more room from passing drivers - the idea being that they see you more as an obstacle to pass, than something to brush past.There are tips on tackling all sorts of junctions and hazards.

So, buy it (or see if you can get it from the library), read it, put it into practice and then re-read it occasionally - we all benefit from refreshing our knowledge every so often.The driver or cyclist who thinks they know it all and can stop learning is the biggest fool.


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## dave r (7 Apr 2012)

Arch said:


> You can teach yourself though.
> 
> Buy and read cyclecraft.
> 
> ...


 
+ one for cyclecraft, also theres also an excellent book by the IAM, institute of Advanced Motorists, called How To Be a Better Cyclist which is worth reading. Riding on the road takes a mixture of confidence, knowledge and experience which takes time to learn, and as Arch said you never stop learning, I've been a cyclist for over forty years but I'm always willing to learn and add to my knowledge.


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## Andy_R (7 Apr 2012)

You might also want to get a lesson or two with a local instructor (as you would with motorbikes or cars) Have a look here CTC Instructors


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## growingvegetables (7 Apr 2012)

Arch said:


> You can teach yourself though.........


 
+1

And ... any chance of finding a buddy to cycle with?

Edited - aye and +1 on finding an instructor; I know Leeds council instructors also offer help for adults - I'd guess most councils do?


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## dave r (7 Apr 2012)

growingvegetables said:


> +1
> 
> And ... any chance of finding a buddy to cycle with?


 
Thats an excellent idea.


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## Pat "5mph" (7 Apr 2012)

I have been commuting by bike since October now. I started cycling on the roads just last week  I don't really have to, can use pavements, cycling paths, go through parks. I'm trying to get used to the roads because in winter they are gritted (fell on ice going through the park) and the cycling path is often full of broken glass.
Every time I set out I have this unsettling feeling of dread, that goes away after about 5 min.
I'm lucky that I mostly do not commute in rush hour. I'm lit up like a Christmas tree, I know they can see me, I follow the highway code, got to know all the potholes, don't cycle in the gutter, all the good tips of the commuting forum ... still, I feel sometimes I'm gambling my life away on the road.
I could say to the op "stick with it, you will gain confidence" which is true, but at rush hour, if you feel stressed, if it's possible at all, change your route to avoid busy traffic areas.


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## dave r (7 Apr 2012)

I never realised that people felt so worried about using the roads, I suppose it goes some way to explain the amount of pavement riding I see and It probably has a bearing on how few cyclists I see, most cyclists round here seem to be weekend warriors . To me it's just normal and natural to ride on the road, it doesn't worry me nor does it feel as if I'm gambling with my life, What the solution is I don't know, may be we need some proper infrastructure, not the hodge podge we get now, perhaps we need to go down the cycle training route..


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## Pat "5mph" (7 Apr 2012)

Dave, I wish somebody could train me in what do do when a car passes me(going straight ahead) to turn left, because he/she cannot wait half a minute for me to be out of the way. Or, like last night, roads empty, black taxi stationary at the side of the road waits exactly for me to be at his bumper to decide he must move out. I mean, I have so many flashing lights not even Santa! And there was no others on the road. Of course I anticipated that was going to happen, I lived to see my cat again 
I don't really care about reporting drivers and the like, just wanna get to work and back home in one piece.


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## caimg (7 Apr 2012)

Yeah I've noticed how much it can affect people recently. My Mum was a beginner when she picked up a bike about 3 years ago, she had a close pass from a bus and was too scared to get back on the bike. I've just managed to talk my fiancée into trying a bike to use for commuting and rides with me, and she's slowly gaining confidence but on a ride 2 weeks ago she was on the verge of tears after having a bus behind her and feeling like it was about to squish her. I think some people just feel more vulnerable than others, and it's completely understandable! I'm glad I don't really feel uncomfortable or intimidated on the road but I think it's normal to feel vulnerable surrounded by hundreds of huge cars and no protection!


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## terry_gardener (7 Apr 2012)

+1 for cyclecraft and maybe bikeability lessons.

also might be worth going out at quiet times like 8pm when the roads are quiet to gain confidance.


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## jowwy (7 Apr 2012)

Pat "5mph" said:


> I have been commuting by bike since October now. I started cycling on the roads just last week  I don't really have to, can use pavements, cycling paths, go through parks. I'm trying to get used to the roads because in winter they are gritted (fell on ice going through the park) and the cycling path is often full of broken glass.
> Every time I set out I have this unsettling feeling of dread, that goes away after about 5 min.
> I'm lucky that I mostly do not commute in rush hour. I'm lit up like a Christmas tree, I know they can see me, I follow the highway code, got to know all the potholes, don't cycle in the gutter, all the good tips of the commuting forum ... still, I feel sometimes I'm gambling my life away on the road.
> I could say to the op "stick with it, you will gain confidence" which is true, but at rush hour, if you feel stressed, if it's possible at all, change your route to avoid busy traffic areas.


Cycle tracks yes - pavements no


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## Arch (7 Apr 2012)

I think fear is a sign of intelligence and imagination. I think the fearless careless ones are the ones who simply can't anticipate danger.

Two mornings running this week, I've turned into a side street on the way to work, to be confronted by a woman riding up the wrong side of the road towards me - not up the middle, but actually on her right hand side. The first day, I simply avoided her, as she moved to her left. The second day, I called out "You know you're supposed to ride on the left?" to which she shouted back "It's early in the morning!". I don't know if she meant 'it's too early to think straight' (it was 8.25am, so not exactly dawn) or 'it's early, so there's no traffic' (maybe not on the side street, but plenty on the main road). She clearly wasn't bothered about danger. I suspect when she got to the main road, she'd ride on the pavement anyway, but for her own convenience rather than out of fear.

The good thing about intelligence and imagination though, is that although they see danger, they can be trained to work for the good - anticipate, look ahead, expect anything, and by and large, you won't be caught out.


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## StuAff (7 Apr 2012)

Arch & Dave have hit the nail on the head here. Read up (on here, in book form, other online sources), find a few people to ride with (and learn from them), and it'll get easier to deal with. All of us, regardless of where we're from, have had to learn to manage our fears as best we can (and I mean manage- it's a case of accepting that there are risks and dealing with them, not ignoring them). Plenty of people on here talk of the mere idea riding in London as absolutely terrifying, for example. Having lived in Pompey (the most densely populated city in the UK, I believe) for my entire life, it was a bit less scary. The roads are just as narrow, frequently as busy, and the buses might not be red but they're not small either. Yes, some drivers are idiots. But most of them want to go about their business and arrive safely just like you, and they don't want to hurt you either.


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## Pat "5mph" (7 Apr 2012)

jowwy said:


> Cycle tracks yes - pavements no


 
Why not pavements? There are no pedestrians, it's an industrial estate. Actually there are pedestrians on the cycling tracks on my way, because they are shared.


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## StuAff (7 Apr 2012)

Arch said:


> I think fear is a sign of intelligence and imagination. I think the fearless careless ones are the ones who simply can't anticipate danger...The good thing about intelligence and imagination though, is that although they see danger, they can be trained to work for the good - anticipate, look ahead, expect anything, and by and large, you won't be caught out.


 
+1.


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## StuAff (7 Apr 2012)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Why not pavements? There are no pedestrians, it's an industrial estate. Actually there are pedestrians on the cycling tracks on my way, because they are shared.


Highway Code says:
*"**62*
Cycle Tracks. These are normally located away from the road, but may occasionally be found alongside footpaths or pavements. Cyclists and pedestrians may be segregated or they may share the same space (unsegregated). When using segregated tracks you *MUST* keep to the side intended for cyclists as the pedestrian side remains a pavement or footpath. Take care when passing pedestrians, especially children, older or disabled people, and allow them plenty of room. Always be prepared to slow down and stop if necessary. Take care near road junctions as you may have difficulty seeing other road users, who might not notice you.
*64*
You *MUST NOT* cycle on a pavement.
*[Laws HA 1835 sect 72 & R(S)A 1984, sect 129]"*

Don't ride on the pavement. Simple as that.


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## Globalti (7 Apr 2012)

As a driver, a motorcyclist of many years' experience and a cyclist I can tell you that drivers will size you up from afar (those that actually see you) and decide how much of a threat you represent to their road space and progress. If your body language is un-assertive they will brush past you paying you little heed. If you are riding fast, well out in the road, riding as if you own that road space and clearly aware of their presence they will give you a wider berth and more respect.

......in most cases.


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## Pat "5mph" (7 Apr 2012)

Globalti said:


> ......in most cases.


 
 
Taxi =


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## MattHB (7 Apr 2012)

I have my IAM motorcycle test and would totally endorse reading cyclecraft. Most of the stuff in it counts for driving/riding any vehicle on the road. 

My training has helped me enormously on my pedal bike. It's all so much easier at pedal speeds too.


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## dave r (7 Apr 2012)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Dave, I wish somebody could train me in what do do when a car passes me(going straight ahead) to turn left, because he/she cannot wait half a minute for me to be out of the way. Or, like last night, roads empty, black taxi stationary at the side of the road waits exactly for me to be at his bumper to decide he must move out. I mean, I have so many flashing lights not even Santa! And there was no others on the road. Of course I anticipated that was going to happen, I lived to see my cat again
> I don't really care about reporting drivers and the like, just wanna get to work and back home in one piece.


 
When I'm going straight on where theres a left turn I will be expecting the impatient driver to try and get past me and get his turn in and will often be using a primary road position, in the middle of the lane, to try and discourage the manoeuvre, if the driver gets just in front then brakes for their turn, either back of yourself or look to overtake on the right, local knowledge is useful with this, over time you will get to know which junctions are bad for this, I've got one junction on my commute thats bad for this, and which junctions aren't, what you don't want is the driver trying to execute the turn from your right hand side, the left hook. With a parked vehicle you should be aware of the doorzone, the area thats covered by an open car door, and be in a primary road position far enough away so you are not going to be hit if someone opens a door, that makes it easier to deal with the vehicle pulling away as well.


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## PurplePoodle (7 Apr 2012)

I'm not sure if it's a fear I have or not of driving on the road.. I just feel strange about it. I've started going on the road from my house to the canal to get used to being on the road and cars going by. I plan on cycling to college so lots of road cycling then


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## sidevalve (7 Apr 2012)

One of the problems is that perhaps like many you are taking up cycling later in life. If you start out [very] young you of course are totaly fearless like all kids and then hopefully you learn roadsense and some idea of self preservation. This comes fast when you're young and stays with you all your life even if like me you take a long break from cycling, it takes a lot to get over the feeling of vulnerability later when you know how much it can hurt.
Don't be ashamed to pull over and stop. If turning right seems risky, well it aint the end of the world if you bottle it, stop and walk across the road.
I agree that the books above are great but like the books about driving a car rely on everyone else having read them too.
Take yourself off to some quiet sideroads and practice everything from looking behind to changing gear,
it may sound silly but it will help boost confidence.


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## Pat "5mph" (7 Apr 2012)

sidevalve said:


> One of the problems is that perhaps like many you are taking up cycling later in life.


 
yes, you got it!


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## DCLane (7 Apr 2012)

Hi-viz vests are normal, so no-one really notices them.

I sometimes use Hi-viz overshoes from Gore; twice motorists have stopped and said that they'd seen me simply because of them!


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## Pat "5mph" (7 Apr 2012)

DCLane said:


> Hi-viz vests are normal, so no-one really notices them.
> 
> I sometimes use Hi-viz overshoes from Gore; twice motorists have stopped and said that they'd seen me simply because of them!


 
Cheers, that's a good tip!


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## dave r (7 Apr 2012)

DCLane said:


> Hi-viz vests are normal, so no-one really notices them.
> 
> I sometimes use Hi-viz overshoes from Gore; twice motorists have stopped and said that they'd seen me simply because of them!


 
I remember a few years ago one of the club lads having a pair of bright yellow high vis gloves, you could see them from miles away.


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## DCLane (7 Apr 2012)

dave r said:


> I remember a few years ago one of the club lads having a pair of bright yellow high vis gloves, you could see them from miles away.


 
Forgot; I've got those too  Sealskinz hi-viz ones.

I _don't_ have a hi-viz jacket though!


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## Red Light (7 Apr 2012)

This sounds to me a bit like the Fear of Flying. Objectively cycling on the road is extremely safe but people don't perceive it as such. In which case getting some training is likely to be more effective than reading a book, very good though Cyclecraft is.


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## slowmotion (7 Apr 2012)

Arch said:


> You can teach yourself though.
> 
> Buy and read cyclecraft.
> 
> ...


 
Excellent advice. Some of it is entirely counterintuitive, like riding in the lane on a roundabout rather than hugging the edge. I'm far too old to feel immortal and I came back to cycling quite recently, but being assertive ( not aggressive or arrogant ) , helps drivers know what your intentions are. BTW, where are you in the country? I'm in London which is a place that some might think to be an absolute nightmare on a bike. Most drivers round here are used to bikes and treat me well.
My only tip when starting out would be to practice looking over your shoulder....often.

Have a great time on two wheels.


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## paulw1969 (7 Apr 2012)

For what it is worth it sounds to me like you could do with a buddy to take you out on a quiet Sunday morning or later at night to give you some confidence and perhaps follow you then give you some tips as to how you are doing with your checks, primary door zones etc. You might feel a little more confident knowing/having someone behind you to start with.
I think it is quite normal to be a little wary almost frightened of riding on the roads when starting out, i know i was after a twenty plus years break from commuting by bike, its called self preservation, keep at it and i'm sure you will gain in confidence


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## derrick (7 Apr 2012)

Am going out with my other half in the morning, it's normally a lot quieter early sunday morning, she is new to road cycling and is quite worried about the amount of cars on the roads, have been doing quiet side roads for the last few weeks, got a 30 miler planned for the morning weather permitting, i always ride behind her and shout instructions, there will be a couple of busy roads we will have to go onto and i know she will be a bit weary of the them, but she is building up her confidence but i don't think she will ever ride alone. got her loads of hi viz gear so she will be fine.
Cycling with a buddy is a good idea, although i do like cycling on my own.


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## summerdays (8 Apr 2012)

I started off very nervous and on the pavements (about 5 yeas ago), and gradually built up my confidence by going on really quiet side roads etc. Ended up reading Cyclecraft and getting some training which both helped after I was overtaken by a car turning left.

I would add to the important things to know - to NOT cycle up the inside of a lorry at a junction, which was something I found out through here (well the old Cycling Plus site), even if they are stationary - just wait behind for them to turn.

I think part of the problem when you are new to cycling is speed. Cycle craft and road skills seem fine at reasonable speeds but if you are going really slow - which I was when I started (still not much faster now) then it is harder to feel confident and hold a good road position. I've noticed the effect even when I'm under the weather and my speed has dropped considerably.


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## dave r (8 Apr 2012)

summerdays said:


> I started off very nervous and on the pavements (about 5 yeas ago), and gradually built up my confidence by going on really quiet side roads etc. Ended up reading Cyclecraft and getting some training which both helped after I was overtaken by a car turning left.
> 
> I would add to the important things to know - to NOT cycle up the inside of a lorry at a junction, which was something I found out through here (well the old Cycling Plus site), even if they are stationary - just wait behind for them to turn.
> 
> I think part of the problem when you are new to cycling is speed. Cycle craft and road skills seem fine at reasonable speeds but if you are going really slow - which I was when I started (still not much faster now) then it is harder to feel confident and hold a good road position. I've noticed the effect even when I'm under the weather and my speed has dropped considerably.


 
The speed thing is something I've noticed, my normal pace is 18-22mph flat out and and 15-16mph average, coming back from illness recently and cycling a lot slower than that made dealing with traffic noticeably more difficult.


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## Globalti (8 Apr 2012)

Why do some cyclists wear black? Red, blue or flouro yes, but surely wearing black is asking for drivers to miss you?


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## Suttzzs (8 Apr 2012)

Wow that's a lot of very good advice I never expected - to sift through a few comments - I am an experienced car driver, motorcyclist of many years standing - I fly single engine aircraft albeit on a prov license and I tell you I would sooner fly through cloud and haze rather than the main "A" roads in my kneck of the woods - I have taken to doing two circuits of our local park for a total distance of 7 miles - I have to cycle to get to the park so I have varied the route to take in main and side roads but it's still a daunting task....With respect to roadcraft there is none - I'm afraid it's the "Me Me Me" brigade and whatever happens I just have to get in front mentality plus there is a total lack of any Police prescence on our roads (North Manchester) so no deterrent.

On a wide sweeping bend I actually had a car driver hang back until he could see the road ahead was clear - I wished I could have caught up with him as I would have shook his hand and congratulated him for giving such consideration to a cyclist......Riding on pavements is a no no for me - it's bad enough in the park with dogs on those extending leashes...A VERY EFFECTIVE BIKE TRAP as the dog can flirt out in any direction at any time.

I must thank you all for the excellent advice and YES I do need to build up my confidence and cycle riding ability + skills otherwise it's an afternoon with the undertaker and I am certainly not ready for that just yet!!!......Cheers Everyone - Great Forum....


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## Red Light (8 Apr 2012)

Suttzzs said:


> I must thank you all for the excellent advice and YES I do need to build up my confidence and cycle riding ability + skills otherwise it's an afternoon with the undertaker and I am certainly not ready for that just yet!!!......Cheers Everyone - Great Forum....



You could start by stopping over-dramatising it in your own head. If mainly novice riders can manage 9 million plus Boris Bike journeys in Central London without even a single serious injury then I am sure you can make it to the park alive. The current going rate for cyclist fatal accidents in London is approx. one for every 20 million journeys. Try working out how long it will take you to cycle 20 million trips.


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## GSIGRoadCycling (8 Apr 2012)

I've just pasted below the first of 23 tips (the most relevant ones for you I think) that I researched for my iPad app Road Cycling - hopefully some of the content will help. I'll get in touch with you privately in a minute to offer a free code for the App in case you have access to a iPad.

Matt


1. Observe, Anticipate and Negotiate

The starting point for safe cycling is Observe, Anticipate and Negotiate.

Observe: A good rider will know what’s going on around them. 
Anticipate: Look at the road ahead and anticipate what other road users are going to do. For example cars slowing for turnings before they remember to indicate, people overtaking, traffic lights changing.
Negotiate: Just as good car driving involves being patient and occasionally letting other people go first so the same is true for good bike riding. It is a pain having to brake when you are happy cycling along but sometimes making the first move keeps you safe and the roads moving harmoniously.


2. Road Position

Our illustrations (sic) show left hand side of the road riding but the common sense suggestions are appropriate for all road systems.

Your road position is vital. First of all the area nearest the curb tends to be home to a vast collection of tyre shredding bits of debris and broken glass so often needs to be avoided for that reason alone. Then throw in drain covers and gutters and - well you get the picture.

The ideal road position is far enough from the curb to avoid these hazards and so that drivers will be able to see you clearly when they approach. There are two usual positions when cycling - the primary and secondary. The most visible position is the primary - just inside where the middle of a car would be - the idea being that you clearly occupy the moving traffic lane. This way drivers can see you as you are in a position closer to where they would be looking for other cars and would need to pull over significantly in order to overtake you. This is commonly called ‘taking the lane’. The most usual position on busy roads, however is the secondary position with a decent distance between the you and the curb.

Basically we are communicating our intention to other road users. In the secondary position, we are saying “I want to see and be seen and I don’t mind if you overtake me, but you need to do it safely”.

In the primary position, the cyclist is saying “I want to see and be seen and I don’t want to be overtaken right now” - (British Cycling Guidelines).

When passing a side road entrance it makes sense to move towards the primary position if possible. This might not be achievable on busy roads but a slight movement is still recommended. Glance behind as you approach the junction, making eye contact with any drivers and move slighty into the primary lane. This will protect you a little from any cars in the road junction and should make cars in your lane slow down and give you more space. When passing a parked car leave enough space to keep you safe if the drivers door 
suddenly opens and start the passing manoeuvre early - don’t leave it late and swerve around the car.

Making this move should also deter any impatient drivers who may be following you and who want to turn into the side road from overtaking and then turning sharply into the corner in front of you causing you to brake suddenly.


3. Traffic

A cyclist needs to be especially careful in traffic but it is in urban situations that the bicycle has great 
advantages as a form of transport. The bike is smaller and more manoeuvrable than other vehicles and the cyclist has the best overall visibility of anyone on the road. This all combines to allow us to negotiate our way quickly through slow or stationary traffic. 

If the traffic is moving slowly then the first consideration would be to take the Primary Position thereby taking that lane. If the traffic speed allows you can ride along safely whilst holding your own space on the road. Experienced riders will be able to balance on their pedals at very low speeds but this takes some skill to do so remember to give yourself enough space to the car in front to allow you to brake and get your feet off the pedals.

If the traffic has stopped or is moving so slowly that you would have to stop then the safest thing is of course to stop as well but this defeats the advantages of manoeuvrability we’ve mentioned above. Anticipate and choose your filter point. Many cyclists will ride along the near-side of the traffic nearest the pavement. This is probably because this part of the road is the most familiar but the near side is where a cyclist is least visible. Many drivers don’t use their near side mirrors - especially so in countries where cars are not 
permitted to overtake on the inside. This means that riders filtering along the inside of cars are less likely to be seen. The passenger’s side of cars is also the side where typically the door is flung open in traffic jams and people jump out. This is a frequent cause of injury to cyclists. 

Riding along this filter should be done with great care and totally avoided when coming across high sided vehicles. You have to be certain that the vehicle is not going to move if you do decide to try this move. If you do get caught near side such a vehicle and it starts to move either stop and hop up onto the pavement and wait there or accelerate to get ahead and back into the driver’s line of sight. 

If you wish to overtake cars then riding between lanes is one option. This methods gets you out of the gutter, away from blind spots and opening doors but does have its own hazards as drivers at low speed tend not to drive particularly straight and gaps between lanes can narrow suddenly. Remember - your brakes are not as effective as a car’s. Also beware that drivers regularly change lanes and direction without looking or indicating.

Filtering on the outside however is probably the most recommended option for overtaking. All the same hazards and precautions for between lanes still apply and the rider now has to be additionally aware of oncoming traffic but with constant reading of the road ahead and a high level of anticipation you can safely overtake in this way. 

When overtaking always make sure that you follow the road rules for wherever you are riding.

If the traffic queue is only one or two cars long then it is probably best to wait behind the cars in a Primary Position. If another car pulls up behind you they will have to wait for you to move to the Secondary Position before overtaking. Be on the constant lookout for road junctions when riding through traffic. Cars may pull out suddenly. The best option is not to overtake in this situation. 

When passing high sided vehicles take extra care and look for pedestrians who might be using the stopped traffic to cross the road. Wait behind large vehicles which are at the head of traffic queues. 


4. Easing traffic

It can be quite scary when you’ve been riding in the scenarios above and the traffic starts to move again - and move again at a speed which is faster than you want to go. If you are in the near side lane it’s easy, simply move over into the secondary riding position and allow other traffic to overtake when it’s safe to do so. Be prepared to take the lane again if needed.

If you are between lanes or in the outside lane then you need to be constantly looking for gaps in the traffic. Ideally - as the traffic starts to spread out accelerate a bit and look ahead for a gap to slot into. Make your needs obvious with clear hand signals. Make good eye contact with the drivers to help reinforce your desire to move. The untrained rider in this situation often slows down in order to slot back into the traffic queue. It may sound counter-intuitive, but this is the opposite of what should ideally be done. Ride in the gap as the traffic starts moving again and make your way back to the Primary position when safe to do so.


5. Roundabouts (for those that have them - like me)

First of all always give way to traffic on the roundabout and only join when it is safe to do so. If you are taking the last exit - so for example in the UK you are turning right, you should signal right and, like you would if you were driving a car ideally be in the right hand lane. 

Check your local road regulations for rules on staying in the near side lane. In the UK cyclists can stay in the left hand lane even if they want to turn right. If you do decide to do this make sure you signal right until just before the exit you wish to take at which point signal left.

Once again - make eye contact with drivers and make clear your intentions.


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## Crankarm (8 Apr 2012)

Cycling on the roads is dangerous. Period. It doesn't matter how many books or times you have read Cyclecraft, if you are in the way of a vehicle that is determined to pass you or a driver has NOT seen you and continues as if you are NOT there then you will be going down. It hurts believe me. It has happened to me twice and on both occasions I was lit up like the seafront at Blackpool and wearing the ubquitous hi-viz fluorescent yellow. Then there are the numerous brushes with death you have every time your pedals start turning - the exceedingly close passes, the left hooks, the cut ups, door opening and general abuse and threats to do you harm. All in all riding on UK roads can be a pretty unpleasant and terrifying experience. The best system would be a cycle network seperate from the road network as they have done in Holland and Denmark.

Black is the new hi-viz.


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## Red Light (8 Apr 2012)

Crankarm said:


> Cycling on the roads is dangerous. Period. It doesn't matter how many books or times you have read Cyclecraft, if you are in the way of a vehicle that is determined to pass you or a driver has NOT seen you and continues as if you are NOT there then you will be going down. It hurts believe me. It has happened to me twice and on both occasions I was lit up like the seafront at Blackpool and wearing the ubquitous hi-viz fluorescent yellow. Then there are the numerous brushes with death you have every time your pedals start turning - the exceedingly close passes, the left hooks, the cut ups, door opening and general abuse and threats to do you harm. All in all riding on UK roads can be a pretty unpleasant and terrifying experience. The best system would be a cycle network seperate from the road network as they have done in Holland and Denmark.



Rubbish.


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## Nearly there (8 Apr 2012)

I stick to B roads If possible and always avoid roundabouts


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## dave r (8 Apr 2012)

Crankarm said:


> Cycling on the roads is dangerous. Period. It doesn't matter how many books or times you have read Cyclecraft, if you are in the way of a vehicle that is determined to pass you or a driver has NOT seen you and continues as if you are NOT there then you will be going down. It hurts believe me. It has happened to me twice and on both occasions I was lit up like the seafront at Blackpool and wearing the ubquitous hi-viz fluorescent yellow. Then there are the numerous brushes with death you have every time your pedals start turning - the exceedingly close passes, the left hooks, the cut ups, door opening and general abuse and threats to do you harm. All in all riding on UK roads can be a pretty unpleasant and terrifying experience. The best system would be a cycle network seperate from the road network as they have done in Holland and Denmark.
> 
> Black is the new hi-viz.


 
I've been riding on Britain's roads for over 40 years, normal annual mileage around 5000 miles, it ain't nowhere near that bad, if it was I would have stopped years ago.


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## raindog (8 Apr 2012)

Personally, if I was scared to be out on the roads I wouldn't ride a bike.


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## MrJamie (8 Apr 2012)

With all the cyclepaths and trails here, i was regularly doing 20 mile leisure routes without even using a non-residential road because i could and because i was rather scared of being hit. If i hadnt started cycling out on roads, id have got bored by now of cycling for fitness and would only cycle for transport. Ive got a lot more confident with road cycling, but im still riding very defensively, watching traffic around me and always trying to think worst case scenario so i dont get caught off guard. I still sometimes walk a junction im not confident to cycle accross, and frequently ill stop and pull over for a drink out of the way a few metres before a junction to let the traffic clear for example. Im still mainly only on quiet roads at quiet times and i absolutely hate big roads in cycle lanes compared to country lanes where riding primary almost always gets a wide berth. Im going out cycling in a minute and i dont want to regret saying this, but car drivers have really been pretty good round here, although giving me a wide overtake towards a blind right corner seems worryingly common.

Its genuinely down to reading the information from this forum thats helped me learn to cycle assertively in a defensive manner rather than trying to keep out of cars way, so im very thankful to people on here.


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## marshmella (8 Apr 2012)

raindog said:


> Personally, if I was scared to be out on the roads I wouldn't ride a bike.


Personally, if i was scared to be out on the roads i wouldn't open my front door.


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## TonyEnjoyD (8 Apr 2012)

Having spent my youth and teenage years cycling on the roads (it was a lot quieter in the 70's) I was pretty much ok when I took up roadie cycling 4 years ago, but commuting I still get quite a few close calls, but it's tends to be when I wander back toward the gutter rather than sticking in primary or secondary...most times.


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## Crankarm (8 Apr 2012)

Red Light said:


> Rubbish.


 
So how many threads on here are there of cyclists being cut up, close passed, knocked off, verbally abused and threatened? Quite a few. Why don't you count them. It might take you some time.


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## Crankarm (8 Apr 2012)

marshmella said:


> Personally, if i was scared to be out on the roads i wouldn't open my front door.


 
Stoooooopid comment.


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## dave r (8 Apr 2012)

Crankarm said:


> So how many threads on here are there of cyclists being cut up, close passed, knocked off, verbally abused and threatened? Quite a few. Why don't you count them. It might take you some time.


 
People use this forum to sound of when they have had a bad commute or an incident, you hear a lot about the bad ones, but people rarely post about the uneventful commutes, this gives a totally unrepresentative picture of commuting.
Speaking personally 99.9% of my commutes are uneventful, they are just part of life's boring routine, I leave the house and cycle to work, when I've finished my shift I clock out and cycle home and that's it, nothing happens that makes me worried, I don't ride feeling threatened, I don't ride feeling my life's in danger, if any of that started happening I wouldn't ride I'd drive.


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## Red Light (8 Apr 2012)

Crankarm said:


> So how many threads on here are there of cyclists being cut up, close passed, knocked off, verbally abused and threatened? Quite a few. Why don't you count them. It might take you some time.


 
There is a difference between the subjective perception of how dangerous it is and the objective evidence. Objectively its no more dangerous than walking and yet very few people would regard walking as dangerous. As for the forum its a collection of subjective anecdotes with people tending to come here to complain/sound off/seek sympathy when something has happened and report all the local reports of accidents that happened to others. As Dave R says, its not representative.


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## marshmella (8 Apr 2012)

To any new members viewing this thread one or two the posts could appear quite alarmist, thankfully there's enough sound advice being given for such members to be re assured.


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## Fab Foodie (8 Apr 2012)

Crankarm said:


> Cycling on the roads is dangerous. Period. It doesn't matter how many books or times you have read Cyclecraft, if you are in the way of a vehicle that is determined to pass you or a driver has NOT seen you and continues as if you are NOT there then you will be going down. It hurts believe me. It has happened to me twice and on both occasions I was lit up like the seafront at Blackpool and wearing the ubquitous hi-viz fluorescent yellow. Then there are the numerous brushes with death you have every time your pedals start turning - the exceedingly close passes, the left hooks, the cut ups, door opening and general abuse and threats to do you harm. All in all riding on UK roads can be a pretty unpleasant and terrifying experience. The best system would be a cycle network seperate from the road network as they have done in Holland and Denmark.


 
Utter utter bollocks.


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## derrick (8 Apr 2012)

Globalti said:


> Why do some cyclists wear black? Red, blue or flouro yes, but surely wearing black is asking for drivers to miss you?


I wear black all the time. although i have a white helmet and they miss me all the time. lol


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## markg0vbr (8 Apr 2012)

dave r said:


> I've been riding on Britain's roads for over 40 years, normal annual mileage around 5000 miles, it ain't nowhere near that bad, if it was I would have stopped years ago.


come and ride with me for a week.

i do 100+ miles a week and i can not remember a ride where i did not have a stupid near pass or aggressive driving including verbal abuse spiting, thing thrown from cars (full water bottles seem favored) it all depends where you live, what roads you ride and what time of day.
i have recently moved on to part time working so can now ride mid morning after the school run and only get two or three incidents most rides.

i ride a hand bike in town for shopping ect and get the most abuse on this, being spat on seem favored, "get off the f**** road spaz", and leaning out the window making retard noises is common though, one van passenger thought slapping the back of my head while driving pass a funny thing to do; i have given up commuting on the hand bike for no other reason than abuse and open hatred.
until you experience it for your self you can not believe the way drivers behave toward a disabled person just because they are on the road. i need to do 15 to 20 hours of exorcise a week to keep from rapidly loosing what mobility and quality of life i have.
i am finding it increasingly difficult to face going out on the road, i could sit on a exorcise bike but i do not get any where near the benefit of actually being out of the house.
i have got to the stage of going to the indoor shopping center and doing laps in the wheelchair, rather than ride at busy times of the day.


the solution enforcement and better road layout and stop handing out laughable judgments for killing people.
after reporting numerous incidents including witness statements to south Yorkshire police one involving being hit over the head and knocked out with a rolled up news paper from a moving car.

to date they have made an "intelligence report" on one car, given me advice to ride defensively and take up primary when passing pinch points ect.
basically "go away and stop bothering us" seams to be the attitude. i taught advanced motorcycle riding, i have ridden a bicycle all my life i know what i am doing on the road.
but when i go to the trouble of coming in to the police station to report some thing it is because it is a bad incident at least talk to the driver or send them a letter giving them advice about how to drive.


nothing will improve until drivers start getting prosecuted for the way they are driving a lethal weapon.


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## mcshroom (8 Apr 2012)

I'll agree it does seem to be different in different places. London seems to have slightly more bike aware (if not more patient) drivers than some other towns and cities. I've never had any real problems when riding back in Rotherham (usually Kimberworth, Masborough, Thorpe Hesley sort of area) but I've seen comments from others on here such as yourself that show that there definitely are some nasty pieces of work around in the town.


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## dave r (8 Apr 2012)

markg0vbr said:


> come and ride with me for a week.
> 
> i do 100+ miles a week and i can not remember a ride where i did not have a stupid near pass or aggressive driving including verbal abuse spiting, thing thrown from cars (full water bottles seem favored) it all depends where you live, what roads you ride and what time of day.
> i have recently moved on to part time working so can now ride mid morning after the school run and only get two or three incidents most rides.
> ...


 
I'm sorry to hear your having such a rough time on the roads, can I ask a question? how much of that is related to your disability and how much do think is related to you being on a bike? You see I don't see any of that and never have done, I have one bad junction on my commute home that I have to be wary of and I get the odd close pass and most of the time thats it.


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## Andy_R (8 Apr 2012)

I think, to get things into perspective, you need to read through all of the commuter threads about, "I almost got killed", "Knobber cut me up", "My helmet saved my life", "All white van drivers are out to get me", and then think to yourself...If things are really that dangerous out ther, how come so many "Victims" are still alive. Also, remember that old news adage of "Drop the dead donkey", i.e good news is no news. For evey poster about bad drivers on this site, there are probably 1000 who have no issues with other road users. See this link for an example  Nothing to see here, cyclists didn't die


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## dave r (8 Apr 2012)

mcshroom said:


> I'll agree it does seem to be different in different places. London seems to have slightly more bike aware (if not more patient) drivers than some other towns and cities. I've never had any real problems when riding back in Rotherham (usually Kimberworth, Masborough, Thorpe Hesley sort of area) but I've seen comments from others on here such as yourself that show that there definitely are some nasty pieces of work around in the town.


 
I've often wondered how much of the behaviour is related to how many cyclists are in an area. Where I am on the northern edge of Coventry cyclists are almost as rare as hens teeth and I get the distinct impression that a lot of the drivers have no idea how to drive when they are around cyclists, contrast this with somewhere like London where cyclists are common and drivers are around cyclists every day and most I would have thought would have a better idea of how to drive. The other thing I have wondered about is how much friction is there between cyclists and drivers where cyclists are common and how that affects driver behaviour.


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## mcshroom (8 Apr 2012)

Another thread to read is the Your Ride Today thread, now onto page 322


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## Fab Foodie (8 Apr 2012)

Well, we've really helped the OP here ....


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## dave r (8 Apr 2012)

Fab Foodie said:


> Well, we've really helped the OP here ....


 
We seem to have gone off on a tangent over the last couple of pages.


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## Pat "5mph" (9 Apr 2012)

There are some people always needing to "statisticalyze" (perfect English ) everything: the OP is scared to ride on the roads (me too, but I'm working on it), it's a _feeling_, telling him statistically he's being unreasonable in his fear won't help. Also, you can read all the books about cycling you want, when you are on a dual carriageway on two wheels, a bus in front, a taxi behind, a white van next to you I _know _they are not out to squash me, still, it is scary.
To the OP I would like to say:
yes, you are right to be scared on a busy road. Primary position or not, somebody, maybe not today, but one day, will pass you too close. No, I don't know if the fear will ever pass.
But, if you really want to cycle, you will find a way to do it that makes you feel safer, in your own time.
And then you will really enjoy not to have to rely on public transport, or spend a fortune in petrol. Keep at it


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## Crankarm (9 Apr 2012)

Red Light said:


> There is a difference between the subjective perception of how dangerous it is and the objective evidence. Objectively its no more dangerous than walking and yet very few people would regard walking as dangerous. As for the forum its a collection of subjective anecdotes with people tending to come here to complain/sound off/seek sympathy when something has happened and report all the local reports of accidents that happened to others. As Dave R says, its not representative.


 
Depends where you walk ............ If you were to walk 2-3 foot out in the road it would be flippin' dangerous. If you were to cycle on the pavement on shared use cycle paths all the time it would be pretty safe. You have to compare like with like. Collection of subjective anecdotes ........ that's a new one on me. We have had numerous cyclists literally crucified on here for posting their acounts of being run off the road, dangerous close passes, knocked down, objects thrown at them, etc and you dismiss them as subjective anecdotal postes merely made to complain/sound off/seek sympathy. Either you don't cycle or cycle very little or are an insensitive heartless b*****d or a combination of all three. And do you reach the conclusion it is NOT representative? Were the campaigns that the Guardian, Independent and recently The Times have run on the dangers that cyclists face unrepresentative of cycling?


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## Crankarm (9 Apr 2012)

Fab Foodie said:


> Utter utter bollocks.


 
Charming.

Were the campaigns that the Guardian, Independent and recently The Times have run on the dangers that cyclists face utter utter bollocks?

I seem to remember you have taken issue with speeding drivers and the danger they pose to cyclists.


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## Crankarm (9 Apr 2012)

marshmella said:


> To any new members viewing this thread one or two the posts could appear quite alarmist, thankfully there's enough sound advice being given for such members to be re assured.


 
Yeah it's lucky that some of us are giving sound pragmatic advice isn't it? Not everything is rosy is it? How much cycling do you actually do? Perhaps Walsall is a model of manners where every one treats every one else with courtesy and respect  ?


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## theclaud (9 Apr 2012)

Globalti said:


> Why do some cyclists wear black? Red, blue or flouro yes, but surely wearing black is asking for drivers to miss you?



I wear mostly black. It's practical, it looks good, and it goes with everything. What you need to remember is that drivers who say they didn't see you are either lying, or making a tacit admission that they weren't looking (in which case it makes no difference what you wear). I don't intend to humour them by dressing like a Playmobil figurine.


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## Globalti (9 Apr 2012)

Wearing red is my only concession (apart from a helmet) to safety - and it matches the red part of my red and black bike!


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## theclaud (9 Apr 2012)

Arch said:


> I think fear is a sign of intelligence and imagination.


I see Crankarm is doing his best to prove you wrong...


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## theclaud (9 Apr 2012)

Globalti said:


> Wearing red is my only concession (apart from a helmet) to safety - and it matches the red part of my red and black bike!



I like red, but the idea is that black forms the basis of your cycling wardrobe, then you can add a splash or a trim of whatever you like, without looking like a Wuzzle.


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## theclaud (9 Apr 2012)

Crankarm said:


> Yeah it's lucky that some of us are giving sound pragmatic advice isn't it? Not everything is rosy is it? How much cycling do you actually do? Perhaps Walsall is a model of manners where every one treats every one else with courtesy and respect  ?



Not everything is rosy, but on the other hand most of us are riding thousands of miles a year on the road, and having an absolute whale of a time. Mostly without serious mishap.


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## Globalti (9 Apr 2012)

Well my shorts or longs are black, my gloves and shoes and socks predominantly black, my helmet black red and white so yes, black is the background!

As a driver I do think a red or yellow jacket (as long as it's bright and not faded) tends to attract the eye especially from a distance and gives the driver a chance to get used to the idea that there's a cyclist ahead. 

I never understood motorcyclists who wear camouflage; that seems like a death wish to me.


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## theclaud (9 Apr 2012)

1800711 said:


> Unless of course you can do Hi-Viz ironically.



I suspect hi-viz has taken us into the post-ironic age.


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## theclaud (9 Apr 2012)

Globalti said:


> Well my shorts or longs are black, my gloves and shoes and socks predominantly black, my helmet black red and white so yes, black is the background!
> 
> As a driver I do think a red or yellow jacket (as long as it's bright and not faded) tends to attract the eye especially from a distance and gives the driver a chance to get used to the idea that there's a cyclist ahead.
> 
> I never understood motorcyclists who wear camouflage; that seems like a death wish to me.



Here's the thing- I know that motorists see me, and see me from a distance, because so many move out properly and in good time to pass me, or look straight at me and refrain from pulling out. When, in exactly the same conditions, one claims not to have seen me, is it more likely that a) choosing not to wear fuchsia renders me periodically invisible or b) she is either lying, or simply did not look?


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## Globalti (9 Apr 2012)

I posted about this a couple of weeks ago when I almost failed to stop for a cyclist who entered a roundabout from my right. We were both moving pretty briskly and for a micro-second my brain said "no threat - carry on" but then the intellect stepped in and said "HE has right of way!" and I slammed on, as they say in driving parlance. My point was that in so many car vs. cyclist incidents one or even both of the parties is riding or driving beyond their ability to react or is simply not concentrating and accidents, as we all know, happen too fast for anybody to prevent them once the important factors have come together. Apparently it is very common for people in accidents to say that the other party "came from nowhere".


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## dave r (9 Apr 2012)

Crankarm said:


> Depends where you walk ............ If you were to walk 2-3 foot out in the road it would be flippin' dangerous. If you were to cycle on the pavement on shared use cycle paths all the time it would be pretty safe. You have to compare like with like. Collection of subjective anecdotes ........ that's a new one on me. We have had numerous cyclists literally crucified on here for posting their acounts of being run off the road, dangerous close passes, knocked down, objects thrown at them, etc and you dismiss them as subjective anecdotal postes merely made to complain/sound off/seek sympathy. Either you don't cycle or cycle very little or are an insensitive heartless b*****d or a combination of all three. And do you reach the conclusion it is NOT representative? Were the campaigns that the Guardian, Independent and recently The Times have run on the dangers that cyclists face unrepresentative of cycling?


 
The simple answer is that people don't post when the commute is uneventful, the majority of the commutes, they only post when something has happened, its this that makes them unrepresentative. I'd raise no interest at all if I posted that nothing happened, the vast majority of my commutes, on my commute except that I exchanged cheery waves with the driver I waved through after I finished passing a parked car.


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## Red Light (9 Apr 2012)

Globalti said:


> Wearing red is my only concession (apart from a helmet) to safety - and it matches the red part of my red and black bike!



10% of males are red-green colour blind and for those of us that are, red does not stand out at all.


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## Alien8 (9 Apr 2012)

Anyway ... back to the OP.

Ride where you're happy riding. If you're not enjoying yourself there's no point doing it. It doesn't matter what other people think or feel about riding on the road - it's about how you feel. Riding with someone else may make you feel more comfortable. Ride at times when there's not so much traffic. Take things at a pace that you're happy with and let your confidence grow. Good luck.


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## redcard (9 Apr 2012)

I was very worried about cycling on the main roads when I got my bike a month ago. Started off using cycle paths, then did my commute route early one Sunday morning. Surprised by how easy it was. Since then I've commuted every day, all on A roads or though the city centre. Not once have I felt threatened by bad driving. Lack of indication and hesitation on the part of drivers has caused a little concern - I'm shocked by the amount of drivers who don't indicate at busy junctions, particularly when there's cyclists around. 

My biggest concern when riding on roads are the pot holes, and I'm still a fairly novice rider.


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## Globalti (9 Apr 2012)

At the risk of opening a can of worms, failure to indicate might actually indicate a good, alert driver who knows the Highway Code. It says there that you should indicate for the benefit of other road users, it doesn't say you should indicate automatically every time you maneuver. So the driver who is fully aware of what's around him and who might benefit from knowing his intentions, will only indicate when necessary. I'm thinking here of the muppets you see driving through an empty estate, signalling mindlessly at every junction and even when they turn to enter their driveway; they are the drivers who worry me.


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## redcard (9 Apr 2012)

Globalti said:


> At the risk of opening a can of worms, failure to indicate might actually indicate a good, alert driver who knows the Highway Code. It says there that you should indicate for the benefit of other road users, it doesn't say you should indicate automatically every time you maneuver. So the driver who is fully aware of what's around him and who might benefit from knowing his intentions, will only indicate when necessary. I'm thinking here of the muppets you see driving through an empty estate, signalling mindlessly at every junction and even when they turn to enter their driveway; they are the drivers who worry me.



I'm talking about city centre driving, where a signal of intent from the driver in front would make manoeuvring through busy junctions a lot easier and efficient.


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## Fab Foodie (9 Apr 2012)

Crankarm said:


> Charming.
> 
> Were the campaigns that the Guardian, Independent and recently The Times have run on the dangers that cyclists face utter utter bollocks?
> 
> I seem to remember you have taken issue with speeding drivers and the danger they pose to cyclists.


 
Everything in life carries an element of risk. But our views of risk are based on perceptions that are emotional rather than rational. I don't believe that cycling is any riskier than being a driver or a pedestrian. If I thought it was inherently dengerous I wouldn't do it. The statistics don't show cycling to be hugely dangerous either, you are more at risk in your car. 

Regarding anecdata, yes shoot happens, but the uneventful millions of miles never get written about, there's no excitement in my 40 uneventful miles yesterday. 
But, there's another element here too, which is part of the raison d'etre for this thread, and that's how you ride - there are defensive and assertive strategies which will minimise risk of conflagration with other road users, these are worth learning and that also minimises risk and enhances enjoyment. I also see cyclists that ride like complete knobs and there's no surprise that there's often conflict and sometimes pain out there.

Regarding your final point, I see no issue with wanting to reduce risk, even where the risk base is low. better driving standards, lower local speeds enhance safety for cyclist, pedestrians and other drivers, as well as contribute to a more pleasant environment. Segregation is not the answer, helmets are not the answer, driver education, mutual human respect and more cyclists on the road is the answer.
It's not rocket science.


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## Alien8 (9 Apr 2012)

Globalti said:


> At the risk of opening a can of worms, failure to indicate might actually indicate a good, alert driver who knows the Highway Code.


 
The average Joe takes a turn without indicating. Are they (i) a good, alert driver who knows the Highway Code? or (ii) a driver who has no idea what they are doing and who doesn't give a toss?

I think I'd tend to place my bet on the later.

Safest to assume everyone's a muppet.


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## Red Light (9 Apr 2012)

Fab Foodie said:


> Everything in life carries an element of risk. But our views of risk are based on perceptions that are emotional rather than rational. I don't believe that cycling is any riskier than being a driver or a pedestrian. If I thought it was inherently dengerous I wouldn't do it. The statistics don't show cycling to be hugely dangerous either, you are more at risk in your car.
> 
> Regarding anecdata, yes shoot happens, but the uneventful millions of miles never get written about, there's no excitement in my 40 uneventful miles yesterday.
> But, there's another element here too, which is part of the raison d'etre for this thread, and that's how you ride - there are defensive and assertive strategies which will minimise risk of conflagration with other road users, these are worth learning and that also minimises risk and enhances enjoyment. I also see cyclists that ride like complete knobs and there's no surprise that there's often conflict and sometimes pain out there.
> ...


 
+1


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## Red Light (9 Apr 2012)

Crankarm said:


> Depends where you walk ............ If you were to walk 2-3 foot out in the road it would be flippin' dangerous. If you were to cycle on the pavement on shared use cycle paths all the time it would be pretty safe. You have to compare like with like.


 
Its comparing how people typically walk and cycle in the UK as evidenced by the national statistics. Walking typically on the pavement is more dangerous per mile than cycling typically on the road - as has been pointed out on here many many times before.





> Collection of subjective anecdotes ........ that's a new one on me. We have had numerous cyclists literally crucified on here for posting their acounts of being run off the road, dangerous close passes, knocked down, objects thrown at them, etc and you dismiss them as subjective anecdotal postes merely made to complain/sound off/seek sympathy. Either you don't cycle or cycle very little or are an insensitive heartless b*****d or a combination of all three. And do you reach the conclusion it is NOT representative? Were the campaigns that the Guardian, Independent and recently The Times have run on the dangers that cyclists face unrepresentative of cycling?


 
Yes its known colloquially as anecdata - anecodotes masquerading as data. Whatever your perception and the reports here, I will repeat Boris Bikers have made 9 million journeys without a single serious injury. London cyclists do over 200 million journeys a year with about 10-15 deaths (half of them under lorries hence the Times campaign after one of theirs went under a lorry to be cynical) and 4-500 serious injuries (which category includes people kept in overnight for observation, broken bones or bad cuts and lacerations). That is a very large number of journeys and a very small number of serious injuries whatever the perceptions. Doesn't mean its not a good thing to try and reduce them further.

However what we are seeing here is a lot of fear of cycling on the roads that I would argue is brought on in large part by the constant scaremongering of how dangerous cycling is and the need for special protective clothing and facilities to make it even remotely safe. Oh and by the way, most of the research shows that segregated cycle facilities are more dangerous than cycling on the road because of all the driveways, entrances and side roads you have to cross without the priority you would have on the road.


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## dave r (9 Apr 2012)

redcard said:


> My biggest concern when riding on roads are the pot holes, and I'm still a fairly novice rider.


 
When you use a route regularly you will find you will learn where the potholes are, the fun and games start late winter early spring when the bad weather has opened a fresh crop of potholes and you've got a new lot to learn. You can report the potholes to the local council or use this website to report them.

http://www.fillthathole.org.uk/


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## Red Light (9 Apr 2012)

dave r said:


> When you use a route regularly you will find you will learn where the potholes are, the fun and games start late winter early spring when the bad weather has opened a fresh crop of potholes and you've got a new lot to learn. You can report the potholes to the local council or use this website to report them.
> 
> http://www.fillthathole.org.uk/


 
I tend to avoid not just potholes but also bits of not so good road surface. I think the fact that you are seen to be constantly steering round stuff and not holding a straight line encourages drivers to give you more room. Which is helpful when you do come across a pothole that is bigger than your bunny hopping skills allow.


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## GetAGrip (9 Apr 2012)

Red Light said:


> I tend to avoid not just potholes but also bits of not so good road surface. I think the fact that you are seen to be constantly steering round stuff and *not holding a straight line encourages drivers to give you more room.* Which is helpful when you do come across a pothole that is bigger than your bunny hopping skills allow.


I'm with you there, well I'm truly hoping so, because my bunny hopping skills are to date non existent.


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## albion (9 Apr 2012)

Whilst perceptions of risk are emotions, it does not invalidate real risk.

I have two routes I intentionally avoid, considering the real risk being too high. 
Therefore a diversion is often the order of the day.


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## Portex (9 Apr 2012)

The British Cycling website (http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/) is running a series of advice pages (select the commuting tab on their website) which are very useful - includes advice on positioning and filtering etc. Any motorcyclists will find the content familiar. But do "claim your space" on the road.


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## Pat "5mph" (9 Apr 2012)

Red Light said:


> I tend to avoid not just potholes but also bits of not so good road surface.  I think the fact that you are seen to be constantly steering round stuff and not holding a straight line encourages drivers to give you more room. Which is helpful when you do come across a pothole that is bigger than your bunny hopping skills allow.


 
 Really? I'm not being sarcastic, really you experienced riders suggest this on a daily commute? I would have thought this would annoy the driver behind. I noticed that if I don't keep a straight line on a cycling path, because of glass or potholes, _the cyclist behind_ gets huffy. Or does this strategy only work if you ride quite fast?


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## Red Light (9 Apr 2012)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Really? I'm not being sarcastic, really you experienced riders suggest this on a daily commute? I would have thought this would annoy the driver behind. I noticed that if I don't keep a straight line on a cycling path, because of glass or potholes, _the cyclist behind_ gets huffy. Or does this strategy only work if you ride quite fast?


 
Really. If drivers see you holding a straight line they reason their paintwork will be safe in a close pass. If you are moving around they will give more room just in case you come towards their paintwork at the moment they are passing. And if it annoys them its only because they are having to hold back and pass properly as per the HC rather than skimming past. Seriously! Try it. 

It doesn't need to be enough to give a following cyclist a problem - a foot or so either way is enough but I am guided just by the road surface and no-one can object to you following the smoother areas of tarmac or avoiding broken and cracked surfaces or poor repairs.


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## Pat "5mph" (9 Apr 2012)

Red Light said:


> Really. If drivers see you holding a straight line they reason their paintwork will be safe in a close pass. If you are moving around they will give more room just in case you come towards their paintwork at the moment they are passing. And if it annoys them its only because they are having to hold back and pass properly as per the HC rather than skimming past. Seriously! Try it.
> 
> It doesn't need to be enough to give a following cyclist a problem - a foot or so either way is enough but I am guided just by the road surface and no-one can object to you following the smoother areas of tarmac or avoiding broken and cracked surfaces or poor repairs.


 
OK, will try this strategy on my next commute. I'm off for a couple of days, next shifts are more or less at peak times for busy traffic: if I get run over it's your fault and you will have to look after my cat in the event of my demise!


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## Red Light (9 Apr 2012)

Pat "5mph" said:


> if I get run over it's your fault and you will have to look after my cat in the event of my demise!


 
http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/cats-and-dogs.99308/


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## Hip Priest (9 Apr 2012)

I sympathise because I have loads of phobias, but I'm lucky in that I never had a fear of road cycling. I just bought a bike and got started. What definitely helped me in terms of learning the ropes was joining this forum, taking advice and watching Gaz's silly cyclists series.


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## marshmella (9 Apr 2012)

Crankarm said:


> Yeah it's lucky that some of us are giving sound pragmatic advice isn't it? Not everything is rosy is it? How much cycling do you actually do? Perhaps Walsall is a model of manners where every one treats every one else with courtesy and respect  ?


Crankarm, i cycle approx 2,500 commuting miles a year;more than some and not as much as others admittedly.Walsall i should imagine is no better or worse than many other similar sized towns.


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## Mugshot (9 Apr 2012)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Really? I'm not being sarcastic, really you experienced riders suggest this on a daily commute? I would have thought this would annoy the driver behind. I noticed that if I don't keep a straight line on a cycling path, because of glass or potholes, _the cyclist behind_ gets huffy. Or does this strategy only work if you ride quite fast?


It also makes you appear a little less experienced/skilled/confident and drivers tend to give you more room as they think you're about to fall off. I have no evidence to back it up but I'm convinced I have more room given to me when I'm slogging away in "normal" clothes commuting on the mountain bike than I do when I'm lycra clad on the roadie, having spoken to my wife about it (she doesn't cycle) she has told me that when she is driving her immediate assumption is that the lycra biker must be more experienced than one that isn't dressed as such, even though she knows it isn't the case. A little steer round an obstacle can help to take away the automatic assumption that you're going to be riding straight as an arrow because you're so experienced and can be a useful tool, this isn't the same as veering around in the road of course 
Of course you shouldn't be riding through potholes anyway.
Ignore huffy cyclists BTW


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## Mugshot (9 Apr 2012)

Crankarm said:


> We have had numerous cyclists literally crucified on here for posting their acounts of being run off the road, dangerous close passes, knocked down, objects thrown at them,


Really? Literally? Could you point me in their direction. I'd like to let admin know, surely the mods should have stepped in before it got to the point where people were "literally" being crucified, I think they've been neglecting their duties, at Easter too!


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## lulubel (9 Apr 2012)

Mugshot said:


> It also makes you appear a little less experienced/skilled/confident and drivers tend to give you more room as they think you're about to fall off. I have no evidence to back it up but I'm convinced I have more room given to me when I'm slogging away in "normal" clothes commuting on the mountain bike than I do when I'm lycra clad on the roadie, having spoken to my wife about it (she doesn't cycle) she has told me that when she is driving her immediate assumption is that the lycra biker must be more experienced than one that isn't dressed as such, even though she knows it isn't the case.


 
That's interesting. I find I get more close passes on the MTB, which I put down to the fact I'm going slower, and drivers are more likely to squeeze past because their perception of being "held up" is greater. There's one road that I'll happily ride at any time on the road bike, but only at weekends on the MTB because the close passes from lorries on weekdays makes it very unpleasant. I don't get it on the road bike, and I assume that's because they're waiting for a safe place to pass.

I've found not holding a straight line does get you more room. (I discovered it when I was first learning how to drink on the move, and tended to wobble when I was getting the bottle in or out of the cage.) I now use it to my advantage often, and also find positioning the hand holding the bottle out where it's visible if I'm having a drink gets me more room, presumably because I'm perceived as more of a hazard when I've clearly only got one hand on the bars.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned here is female cyclists getting more room. I had my hair cut short last autumn, and immediately noticed the number of close passes increased. I've tried wearing a pink jersey, but that doesn't seem to help because Spanish men don't have issues with wearing pink. I'm now growing my hair again!

To the OP, there are some dangers in cycling on the road, but that can be said of anything in life, including walking along your local high street, or driving to the supermarket. The more often you do it, and the more often your fears are not realised, the more confident you will become. (Unless it's an actual phobia, where repeatedly exposing yourself to the source of your fear may not help - it didn't help me with my phobia. But there are people who can help with phobias.)


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## Mugshot (9 Apr 2012)

lulubel said:


> That's interesting. I find I get more close passes on the MTB, which I put down to the fact I'm going slower, and drivers are more likely to squeeze past because their perception of being "held up" is greater.


I wonder if it's cultural, It would appear that different countries seem to have vastly different attitudes when it comes to cyclists, how are cyclists generally viewed in Spain? Bit OT, sorry OP.


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## Hebe (9 Apr 2012)

I learned to ride as an adult, with notions of pedalling serenely along the tow-path/shared-use paths with my child in a bike seat behind me. I was surprised to learn very fast that I felt much safer on the road, with my daughter in a trailer. There are still a few right turns that I will make on foot, and some local roads that I haven't ridden yet but instruction from a Bikeability instructor has been superbly helpful. On the whole, I feel a lot safer on my bike in the road than I do as a pedestrian trying to walk the same route. Shared paths are a pain with having to stop and give way/cross at poorly designed junctions, and transitioning from road to shared path or vice-versa with a trailer is often horrid to the point that I choose to stay in the road rather than risk capsizing the trailer on a section of "dropped" kerb that is too short and barely dropped. I have massiive "what if" fears running in my head sometimes, but I want to show my girl that cycling is a normal way of getting around, and that there are alternatives to the car for the many shorter journeys that she does. So I would suggest booking a session or two with a local Bikeability instructor.


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## Crankarm (9 Apr 2012)

theclaud said:


> I wear mostly black. It's practical, it looks good, and it goes with everything. What you need to remember is that drivers who say they didn't see you are either lying, or making a tacit admission that they weren't looking (in which case it makes no difference what you wear). I don't intend to humour them by _*dressing like a Playmobil figurine*_.


 
Would you ............. Oh go on


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## Crankarm (9 Apr 2012)

theclaud said:


> I wear mostly black. It's practical, it looks good, and it goes with everything.


 


theclaud said:


> I like red, but the idea is that_* black forms the basis of your cycling wardrobe*_, _*then you can add a splash or a trim of whatever you like*_, without looking like a Wuzzle.


 
This is too much, I must go for a lie down. Pfewwww!


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## Crankarm (9 Apr 2012)

theclaud said:


> I see Crankarm is doing his best to prove you wrong...


 
Can't imagine your lower lip ever quivering claud ...........


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## Crankarm (9 Apr 2012)

theclaud said:


> Not everything is rosy, but on the other hand most of us are riding thousands of miles a year on the road, and _*having an absolute whale of a time*_. Mostly without serious mishap.


 
Do you ride a pedalo???? In all my years of cycling I never saw a whale on the roads, but maybe you have which is fine and dandy.


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## summerdays (9 Apr 2012)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Really? I'm not being sarcastic, really you experienced riders suggest this on a daily commute? I would have thought this would annoy the driver behind. I noticed that if I don't keep a straight line on a cycling path, because of glass or potholes, _the cyclist behind_ gets huffy. Or does this strategy only work if you ride quite fast?


 
I have a stretch on a main route that joins up with the M32 that has poor road surface for 100m where it has obviously been dug a trench and then in filled really badly. I know where it is and always move further out in advance. Or the stretch just after dropping my son off at school - both I will be in primary in a planned manor (and tough if they are annoyed - can't say I've ever had anyone complain at either section).

On a windy day I've been known to wobble a bit more than necessary to point out to drivers that the wind is blowing me around a little and give me (and other cyclists) some more space that day.


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## Suttzzs (10 Apr 2012)

GSIGRoadCycling said:


> I've just pasted below the first of 23 tips (the most relevant ones for you I think) that I researched for my iPad app Road Cycling - hopefully some of the content will help. I'll get in touch with you privately in a minute to offer a free code for the App in case you have access to a iPad.
> Thank you ever so much Matt - that is really excellent information - I fear I am only a small cog as I read a report in the Guardian that British roads are the most dangerous for cyclists and a good percentage of people will not venture out on a cycle because of the attitude of drivers - Dangerous Roads - lack of cycle lanes and of course no deterrent apart from speed camera's and quite a few of these are no longer in service....I - unfortunately - am not alone!!!!!......Take care and Thank You....Suttzzs.
> Matt
> 
> ...


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## theclaud (10 Apr 2012)

Crankarm said:


> Do you ride a pedalo???? In all my years of cycling I never saw a whale on the roads, but maybe you have which is fine and dandy.



The gags need work, Crankers, if you don't mind my saying so.

Cycling is fun, liberating, and mostly pretty safe. It's especially liberating and enjoyable when you have the full freedom of the roads. I'm sorry that you had some very bad experiences, and I acknowledge that bad things will sometimes happen even if we do everything right, but the fact is that the skills and techniques that enable us to enjoy the road in confidence and to anticipate and avoid dangers posed by others is within the grasp of most cyclists. We have the means, and we become stronger and safer by using them. No one should feel obliged to perform right-turns across three lanes of speeding traffic just to prove a point, but everyone can learn how to claim a bit of space, communicate, and anticipate, and this will allow them to use all but the most relentlessly intimidating roads whenever they want or need to.


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## calibanzwei (10 Apr 2012)

I've never driven (or taken any lessons for that matter), but at the age of 32 and being a front seat car passenger for most of that time I know that I have a good grasp on how roads 'work'. I only started cycling properly on roads 18-24months ago and this knowledge, with a scattering of common sense and assertive positioning means I've never had 'the fear'.


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## fossyant (10 Apr 2012)

Road riding dangerous ?

Have you seen the ninja trees and rocks that jump out on you when MTB'ing ? Total nightmare they are. WTF did that tree come from. Bang, ouch !


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## Pat "5mph" (11 Apr 2012)

Evening all!
Just to say I rode all the way to work on the roads at rush hour today, that is I left the house just before 4 pm. I know the road well, because at night or at 6 am I have no fear whatsoever to ride on the roads
The highlight was: just after exiting my cul the sac, into a double carriage way, no other car on it, I take the primary in the right lane because I have to turn right after 200 mt. The left lane only allows one to turn left. Suddenly, I hear the most urgent car horn behind me, as in "get out of my way". Car driver was in a hurry to get to the red traffic lights ahead  He would not stop beeping!
Normally I would go through the back of the estate, cycle the 200 mt. on the pavement (I know, I know!), dismount and cross at the lights.
Never mind, it could have been a lorry, then I would really have had a panic attack!


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## Silver Fox (12 Apr 2012)

Road riding is great fun but after several very close shaves with idiots in cars and vans I decided to call it a day, I didn't fancy becoming another statistic. I know all there is to know about driving / riding on the roads but that knowledge won't save you from the fool who isn't paying attention even momentarily. If I'm going to get hit I'd rather be surrounded by a metal cage, lycra doesn't offer the same protection.

These days I throw myself around off road but at least I won't get taken out on the black stuff by some spotty teenage driver who's too busy texting.


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## Silver Fox (12 Apr 2012)

theclaud said:


> Not everything is rosy, but on the other hand most of us are riding thousands of miles a year on the road, and having an absolute whale of a time. Mostly without serious mishap.


 
And long may that continue.


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## redcard (12 Apr 2012)

Silver Fox said:


> Road riding is great fun but after several very close shaves with idiots in cars and vans I decided to call it a day........I know all there is to know about driving / riding on the roads



Hmm, wonder if it's that sort of attitude that got you in trouble!


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## Silver Fox (12 Apr 2012)

redcard said:


> Hmm, wonder if it's that sort of attitude that got you in trouble!


 
No.


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## redcard (12 Apr 2012)

Bit narcissistic, but there you go.


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## Silver Fox (12 Apr 2012)

redcard said:


> Bit narcissistic, but there you go.


 
You've got me on that one fella, care to explain.


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## theclaud (12 Apr 2012)

Silver Fox said:


> And long may that continue.


 
I'll drink to that.

Quiet in the cheap seats, McGinty!


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## Pat "5mph" (12 Apr 2012)

Afternoon!
Update on conquering my fear of road riding, here's the highlights of today's commute:
on my way in, city centre dual carriage way - here I could follow the cycle path, but it's usually full of broken glass.
Anyway, at red traffic lights, following all the good cchatter tips ( be aware of the traffic surrounding you, staying in primary indicates you do not want to be overtaken) I look around me: white van behind me, white van in the lane next to me. I do not want to be passed at that moment, he, he, because I know the most enormous " 4 drain covers inside a pothole" waits a few meters along. Have this feeling that the WV next lane will try to overtake when the lights change to green, so, as advised by post 107 (I think) I try to make eye contact with the driver: the van had tinted windows 
When the lights went green, the van that was behind me must have turned, because a black taxi overtook me so close that I ended up right on top of the drain covers. Just as well my tires are bigger than my tights!
On my way back, traffic lights turning red, stopped behind the white line, allowing a car coming the opposite way to turn right. I could have squeezed through, and the driver turning would have let me, but I stopped because I would have ended on the bumper of the car in front that got through. Got a nice thank you, but guess who did not like it? Yeah, the driver behind!
Also, near home, on another dual carriage way, I got overtaken twice by cars that ended up in the double yellow lines in front of me, actually making me slow down, me?? ... even slower???
Road riding is like life: you can read about it, you can prepare for it, then reality hits you on the helmet.  (I'm not giving up, btw)


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## Crankarm (13 Apr 2012)

Red Light said:


> Its comparing how people typically walk and cycle in the UK as evidenced by the national statistics. Walking typically on the pavement is more dangerous per mile than cycling typically on the road - as has been pointed out on here many many times before.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
So your anecdotes carry more weight and importance than mine? My anecdotes come from actual experience. Stats are stats - you can cherry pick the ones that suit your view. Since Christmas I have seen 4 cyclists knocked down, 2 go over the bonnets of cars and 2 rear ended. All were down to inattentive drivers. You are 9 times more likely to be killed on the roads if you cycle as opposed to driving. As Silver Fox said he gave up road riding as he didn't want to become another statistic and this view I totally understand and appreciate. So your spouting bollocks is now different to any other Joe spouting bollocks. You like one of the other knobs on this thread started getting high and mighty giving the impression he was a road weary cyclist. Turns out he only cycled 2.5k a year on the roads. I used to cycle more than that on sunday morning club runs each year!!! I reckon you need to be riding at least 7.5k maybe 10k miles a year before you can comment to at least stand a chance of knowing what you are talking about and to have done it for at least 10 years no 20 years.


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## MrJamie (14 Apr 2012)

The road cycling i do is mainly on fairly wide fairly quiet country roads and outside of rush hours, which probably means i have a lot less cars overtaking me and less urgently but all is still well.. so far. 

One thing i still cant get my head around is being overtaken approaching blind corners, but i dont drive a car so im not entirely sure if its as dangerous as i think it is and if its just the quiet roads and luck that have avoided a head on collision. Today im cycling along a quiet national speed limit road thats incidentally a NCR at ~20mph, 300m until a junction where i join the shared use paths, 100m to a right hand bend with overgrown trees/hedges then a car which to its credit pulls out and does a nice wide overtake, but blind to oncoming traffic. I slow down when being overtaken an cant see its clear incase they sweve violently back in too. Its got me a little worried that sooner or later im going to see or be involved in a big crash, Ive already seen a couple of pretty close calls making oncoming traffic brake really hard.


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## dave r (14 Apr 2012)

Overtaking into a blind bend is just dangerous driving, I see it on one bend on one road I ride on a regular basis, Caldwell Road, fortunately its a quiet side road used by some as an access to the factories further on. Why they do it I don't know, I wouldn't when I drive.


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## Boris Bajic (14 Apr 2012)

Red Light said:


> This sounds to me a bit like the *Fear of Flying*. Objectively cycling on the road is extremely safe but people don't perceive it as such. In which case getting some training is likely to be more effective than reading a book, very good though Cyclecraft is.


 
I took your advice and read the book you mention. It has no references to cycling in traffic. There is more than one reference to wanton and inappropriate carnality. I am shocked. I may have misunderstood your post.


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## Red Light (14 Apr 2012)

Boris Bajic said:


> I took your advice and read the book you mention. It has no references to cycling in traffic. There is more than one reference to wanton and inappropriate carnality. I am shocked. I may have misunderstood your post.



You've got the Jong book !


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## Boris Bajic (14 Apr 2012)

Red Light said:


> You've got the Jong book !


 
I think I have.

Although I've now found a passage in which there is a coming together with a zipless truck.

It sounds like a traffic accident of sorts, but my reading glasses are downstairs.


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## Red Light (14 Apr 2012)

Crankarm said:


> So your anecdotes carry more weight and importance than mine? My anecdotes come from actual experience. Stats are stats - you can cherry pick the ones that suit your view. Since Christmas I have seen 4 cyclists knocked down, 2 go over the bonnets of cars and 2 rear ended. All were down to inattentive drivers. You are 9 times more likely to be killed on the roads if you cycle as opposed to driving. As Silver Fox said he gave up road riding as he didn't want to become another statistic and this view I totally understand and appreciate. So your spouting bollocks is now different to any other Joe spouting bollocks. You like one of the other knobs on this thread started getting high and mighty giving the impression he was a road weary cyclist. Turns out he only cycled 2.5k a year on the roads. I used to cycle more than that on sunday morning club runs each year!!! I reckon you need to be riding at least 7.5k maybe 10k miles a year before you can comment to at least stand a chance of knowing what you are talking about and to have done it for at least 10 years no 20 years.


 
Yep, anecdotes are good, statistics are crap. Excuse me while I have a drag to prolong my life.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...says-drink-and-cigarettes-keep-her-young.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tes-birthday-smoking-170-000th-cigarette.html


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## growingvegetables (14 Apr 2012)

Crankarm said:


> I reckon you need to be riding at least 7.5k maybe 10k miles a year before you can comment to at least stand a chance of knowing what you are talking about and to have done it for at least 10 years no 20 years.


Not much different from proposing that the voting age be raised to 95.


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## redcard (14 Apr 2012)

growingvegetables said:


> Not much different from proposing that the voting age be raised to 95.



I agree. But only when election date is an odd number.


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## User16625 (14 Apr 2012)

Arch said:


> You can teach yourself though.
> 
> Buy and read cyclecraft.
> 
> ...


 
Completely disagree, that would piss me right off. In one case a cyclist pulled right out almost to the centre lines, done my head in so I sounded the horn and made a rude gesture at him! Maybe I was wrong to react like that but reacting like that I did so its best not to provoke such behaviour. Same as people who cycle side by side on bends when they know there is traffic behind. When cycling I avoid doing things that would piss me off if a cyclist done that to me as a driver. Common sense stuff really.


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## dave r (14 Apr 2012)

Crankarm said:


> So your anecdotes carry more weight and importance than mine? My anecdotes come from actual experience. Stats are stats - you can cherry pick the ones that suit your view. Since Christmas I have seen 4 cyclists knocked down, 2 go over the bonnets of cars and 2 rear ended. All were down to inattentive drivers. You are 9 times more likely to be killed on the roads if you cycle as opposed to driving. As Silver Fox said he gave up road riding as he didn't want to become another statistic and this view I totally understand and appreciate. So your spouting bollocks is now different to any other Joe spouting bollocks. You like one of the other knobs on this thread started getting high and mighty giving the impression he was a road weary cyclist. Turns out he only cycled 2.5k a year on the roads. I used to cycle more than that on sunday morning club runs each year!!! I reckon you need to be riding at least 7.5k maybe 10k miles a year before you can comment to at least stand a chance of knowing what you are talking about and to have done it for at least 10 years no 20 years.


 
I've been cycling for over 40 years, since the cycle computers came out and I've been seeing what mileage I've been doing I've been seeing 4-5000 miles a year on average, in the 40 years I've been cycling I've not seen anybody taken out by a car, I've seen people fall off but not taken out by a car, I've been taken out myself about four times, worst injury a bruised back, an afternoon in A & E and three weeks off work. Like you I base my opinion on my experiences, and my experiences are a lot different to yours.


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## Boris Bajic (14 Apr 2012)

dave r said:


> I've been cycling for over 40 years, since the cycle computers came out and I've been seeing what mileage I've been doing I've been seeing 4-5000 miles a year on average, in the 40 years I've been cycling I've not seen anybody taken out by a car, I've seen people fall off but not taken out by a car, I've been taken out myself about four times, worst injury a bruised back, an afternoon in A & E and three weeks off work. Like you I base my opinion on my experiences, and my experiences are a lot different to yours.


 
Although I have been walloped by a car, I find the above about in line with my own experiences and I have 4 decades cycling and 3 decades driving..

To date, despite some spectacular unplanned convergences with kerbs, tarmac, hedgerows, trees and other vehicles I've spent no more than the odd hour in A&E.


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## theclaud (14 Apr 2012)

RideLikeTheStig said:


> Completely disagree, that would piss me right off. In one case a cyclist pulled right out almost to the centre lines, done my head in so I sounded the horn and made a rude gesture at him! Maybe I was wrong to react like that but reacting like that I did so its best not to provoke such behaviour. Same as people who cycle side by side on bends when they know there is traffic behind. When im cycling I avoid doing things that would piss me off if a cyclist done that to me as a driver. *Common sense stuff really.*



If people who are going to talk bollocks would kindly put this warning at the beginning rather than the end of their posts, they could save us the trouble of reading them. Thank you.


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## bicyclos (14 Apr 2012)

Do you have to ride on these particular roads with which puts the fear into you or is there an alternative route to make your experience more enjoyable? Some roads I avoid like the stink because of the aggresive attitude and bad driving I have encountered over the years. I have had to change my route to work which for me now is a pleasure to cycle and I really enjoy it. I nearly gave up cycling altogether as 5/6yrs ago was the last straw on my old route when an 18t wagon just pulled out of a junction into my path, I saw it coming at the last second and pushed myself away from the vehicle with my left hand on the grill and managed to push myself away. Cars and vans dont bother me as such but its the big boys of the road which I am more cautious and weary of. Don't let the above put you off, Its not all doom and gloom.

My yearly mileage on the road isnt fantastic by a long straw compared to most people on here as I use my bikes for commuting to work and a lot of escapism cycling, the only other alternative I have to get to work and back is two buses or walk. For my amount of time spent on the road the chances of bad encounters are a lot less than a roadie who is going to spend alot more time on the road. I would never have given up cycling for good as it's in my blood I would have ended up doing more of the rough-stuff..


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## growingvegetables (14 Apr 2012)

RideLikeTheStig said:


> done my head in so I sounded the horn and made a rude gesture at him!


Ah - such a pearl of wisdom, cast before swine, so utterly wasted on us.


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## Brandane (14 Apr 2012)

Surely this subject all depends on what type of "roads" people are cycling on? It's all very well for people who spend all their time cycling on pleasant B roads out in the country to claim that it is all nicey nicey and perfectly safe. I just spent the last 2 days doing road rides around the Solway Firth and it was heaven. Very little traffic apart from the odd tractor or lost tourist.

The other side of the coin are some of the roads that some on here were suggesting I was using as a cop-out excuse for not commuting by cycle (on another thread). Anyone who thinks cycling on busy, narrow trunk roads is either safe or fun has a warped sense of immortality and/or humour, IMHO. For those familiar with them, I refuse to cycle on: A78 Largs/Wemyss Bay; A737 Lochwinnoch/Howwood; A8 around Coatbridge (section linking 2 parts of the M8); A9 Dunblane/Perth. That's just for starters.....


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## Crankarm (15 Apr 2012)

I only ride GBW and dedicated off road cycle lanes and pavements with shared use. I do not ride roads any more. The GBW is heaven, a 15 mile TT twice a day five times a week sometimes 6. The cycle lanes and shared used paths into Cambridge can be a bit of a bummer sometimes slowing for other cyclists or peds but it doesn't take 5 seconds to be courteous. Junctions can be a problem when stooooopid feckwit motons look the wrong way when approaching juntions fast and not the direction in which their vehicle is travelling. A collision waiting to happen. But I am happy to stop and let these dangerous numptees who are often driving and dialling pass as the other option riding on the roads themselves doesn't bear thinking about.


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## terry_gardener (15 Apr 2012)

can i ask a daft question what is GBW


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## psmiffy (15 Apr 2012)

terry_gardener said:


> can i ask a daft question what is GBW


 
I assume it is a reference to the cycle track along the guided busway between St Ives and Cambridge


1808422 said:


> I'm afraid that your heaven sounds like a prison to me.


 
It sounds like a prison to me as well - however I used to ride to Cambridge regularly along the A14 and I think if it was in existence at the time I would probably have tolerated it as an alternative.


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## Crankarm (15 Apr 2012)

For those who can't keep up or haven't heard or are asleep most of the time, the GBW or G U I D E D B U S W A Y is a super smooth tarmac path/road running alongside the ........ guided busway between St Ives in Cambs and Cambridge itself. There are no vehicles allowed on it, except bicycles, horses and peds. It is heaven as there is absolutely no traffic except crossing 4 or 5 minor roads along it's length at which there are traffic lights to control traffic crossing. The St Ives end has Fenstanton lakes which offer a good view on clear evenings. Quite often gease or migrating birds fly over head. The only dodgy thing at the moment is avoiding the numerous piles of horse shoot.

However it certainly isn't a prison. Far better than being on roads where you are not sure whether a speeding car approaching from a side junction or behind has got your name on it and is going to flatten you. Currently it has got to be the best stretch of cycle track in the country.


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## ianrauk (15 Apr 2012)

Crankarm said:


> For those who can't keep up or haven't heard or are asleep most of the time, the GBW or G U I D E D B U S W A Y is a super smooth tarmac path/road running alongside the ........ guided busway between St Ives in Cambs and Cambridge itself.


 

How long is the GBW?


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## Crankarm (15 Apr 2012)

psmiffy said:


> I assume it is a reference to the cycle track along the guided busway between St Ives and Cambridge
> 
> 
> It sounds like a prison to me as well - however I used to ride to Cambridge regularly along the A14 and I think if it was in existence at the time I would probably have tolerated it as an alternative.


 
The A14 has to be one of busiest and most dangerous roads in the country with a huge volume of traffic using it as it is an arterial route between the ports, the Midlands and the North. When I drive along it to work I occasionally see mentalists cycling along the 2ft wide hard shoulder with hundreds of trucks, vans, coaches, buses and cars squeezing by them within the thickness of a Rizla fag paper of their elbows. It is absolute madness to cycle along this road. It would be a death wish. Certifiable. And yet there are stupid blue cycling signs at the slip roads advising cyclists to take a detour or to dismount.

When was it you rode along the A14 psmiffy?


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## Crankarm (15 Apr 2012)

ianrauk said:


> How long is the GBW?


 

14 miles give or take a bit - St Ives to Milton at Cambridge end. I never measure it in distance, only time which is about 35- 40 minutes to ride it. If conditions were favourable then 30 mins would be possible. Kevincambs knows more than me as he has been riding it for a couple of years. I don't think he considers it a prison.


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## Crankarm (15 Apr 2012)

1808422 said:


> I'm afraid that your heaven sounds like a prison to me.


 
Have you ever been to prison, perhaps an open prison maybe? You wouldn't be trolling would you ?????


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## Crankarm (15 Apr 2012)

1808848 said:


> No I am not ****ing trolling. I am merely pointing out that confining oneself to one particular cycle lane and a few pavements is not exactly enjoying the freedoms which cycling can offer us.


 

How do you know? You haven't even ridden on it ! Who are you to start dictating what extent of cycling counts as sufficient enjoyment of the freedom that you say cycling can offer? Each to their own. You ARE trolling, troll.


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## Pat "5mph" (15 Apr 2012)

I want to ask a stupid question too: what the heck is a troll? You are always accusing each other to be one, or to do something like one, I was even called a troll on a thread here  I guess it has nothing to do with Terry Pratchett's Disk world, so tell a stupid woman what it is!
Back on topic, I think I found my happy medium riding the roads: early in the morning/late at night/when I know the way, I'm really confident now that I've been doing it for a couple of weeks. On peak traffic times, or when I'm really too tired to stress myself, I have no qualms whatsoever in resorting to crossing on foot or riding the occasional pavement  most are deserted anyway, as walking is deemed bad for your health here


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## Pat "5mph" (15 Apr 2012)

1809091 said:


> Trolling is dragging a bait to lure a predatory fish. Crankarm is suggesting that I have been deliberately posting contentiously in order to get a rise out of him.


Aha, I see, cheers for the explanation.


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## Rickshaw Phil (15 Apr 2012)

Crankarm said:


> For those who can't keep up or haven't heard or are asleep most of the time, the GBW or G U I D E D B U S W A Y is a super smooth tarmac path/road running alongside the ........ guided busway between St Ives in Cambs and Cambridge itself. There are no vehicles allowed on it, except bicycles, horses and peds. It is heaven as there is absolutely no traffic except crossing 4 or 5 minor roads along it's length at which there are traffic lights to control traffic crossing. The St Ives end has Fenstanton lakes which offer a good view on clear evenings. Quite often gease or migrating birds fly over head. The only dodgy thing at the moment is avoiding the numerous piles of horse shoot.
> 
> However it certainly isn't a prison. Far better than being on roads where you are not sure whether a speeding car approaching from a side junction or behind has got your name on it and is going to flatten you. Currently it has got to be the best stretch of cycle track in the country.


No need to be sarcastic - some of us don't live in Cambridgeshire.


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## Red Light (16 Apr 2012)

Crankarm said:


> Currently it has got to be the best stretch of cycle track in the country.



Possibly and I don't know about the northern leg but whenever I've ridden on the southern leg out to the Trumpington P&R it's been completely empty. 

We did look at it for my daughter to cycle from the station to Addenbrookes but decided Hills Road was much better because its both shorter/quicker and there are many more people and cyclists around - safety in numbers applies to more than just cycling safety - and options such as calling a taxi if she got a mechanical rather than having to fix it or walk in a rather vulnerable location. 

I've only seen a video of the northern section but it looked pretty devoid of cyclists too.


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## theclaud (16 Apr 2012)

Crankarm said:


> *For those who can't keep up or haven't heard or are asleep most of the time*, the GBW or G U I D E D B U S W A Y is a super smooth tarmac path/road running alongside the ........ guided busway between St Ives in Cambs and Cambridge itself.


 
You forgot those that don't give a shoot.


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## Mugshot (16 Apr 2012)

1809779 said:


> Do they need the explanation?


I needed the explanation before it dawned on me that I didn't give a shoot.


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## Matthew_T (16 Apr 2012)

From my experiences of road riding, I can understand why the OP has this 'fear' of riding on the road.

Cars are normally going twice your speed, you have to be aware of peds and road obstacles. You need to remember all of the necessary hand signals. And you need to be extra aware of what the cars around you are doing and take care of your own safety. 

The technique of riding on the road is really no different to riding on a shared use path. Instead of lots of peds, there are lots of cars. And they can both do unexpected things.

If you are not comfortable with riding on busy roads straight away, plan a route or commute on minor roads and give yourself lots of time to get where you want so that you are not in a rush or under pressure.

Practice different techniques at junctions and decide which is safe for you and others.

With regards to other drivers on the roads, ignorance is bliss. Just ignore what anyone shouts or does (within safety limits). If someone is going to ram you off the road, jump out of their way. Just remember: You can replace a bike, but you cannot replace you life.


I enjoy cycling on very minor, unnamed, country roads, as I can go my own speed and ride right against the verge if I meet another vehicle. You also get a better workout than riding on the flat (unless you maintain a high speed).


Whatever you decide to do, make sure you enjoy it.

(The majority of this advice is what I should be giving myself really)


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## Fab Foodie (16 Apr 2012)

Rickshaw Phil said:


> No need to be sarcastic - *some of us don't live in Cambridgeshire*.


 ... and are forever thankful ....


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## Red Light (16 Apr 2012)

1809779 said:


> Do they need the explanation?



No, laxatives


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## Pedrosanchezo (17 Apr 2012)

OP, if you can just stay on b roads and cycle paths to begin with to build up your confidence. No one HAS to ride on busy roads and cycling is very much about your own individual enjoyment. Prepare yourself best you can and start at your own comfort level. From there i am betting you will find exactly what you want out of cycling. :-)


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## Matthew_T (18 Apr 2012)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> OP, if you can just stay on b roads and cycle paths to begin with to build up your confidence. No one HAS to ride on busy roads and cycling is very much about your own individual enjoyment.


 Well unless their commute route forces them to use them.


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## Pedrosanchezo (18 Apr 2012)

Matthew_T said:


> Well unless their commute route forces them to use them.


Totally Matthew, though in this instance i believe the original post was regarding cycling for leisure. It actually sounds more like a fear of what could happen in worst case scenarios. One must remember that the worst case scenario is living life in fear of things that will greatly effect your happiness...... 
If cycling makes you happy then find a way or route/s that allows you to cycle happy. Simples......


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## Matthew_T (19 Apr 2012)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> Totally Matthew, though in this instance i believe the original post was regarding cycling for leisure. It actually sounds more like a fear of what could happen in worst case scenarios. One must remember that the worst case scenario is living life in fear of things that will greatly effect your happiness......
> If cycling makes you happy then find a way or route/s that allows you to cycle happy. Simples......


Wise words.

Being a happy cyclist also releives stress. I have noticed that since I got the new helmet cam, I have been having fewer close passes and more friendly talks with pedestrians about the camera. This year so far, I have probably talked to about 9 individuals.

I am enjoying cycling a lot more now and can concentrate on the important things (like getting a high average and longer miles).

I have the benefit of being at a point at North Wales where I have access to the prom, and the Clwydian range. Both directions are normally peaceful and relaxing.

I think the OP should have a look at an OS map and plan a route which will avoid all the roads he fears, as well as give him the work out he wants.


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