# Confrontation with a motorist: I did nothing wrong this time



## Matthew_T (19 Jun 2012)

Had a bit of an incident with a driver just now.

I was waiting at a junction, taking a rest when a car cuts the corner. I simply mutter under my breathe "Cut the corner a bit there" and think nothing more of it. When I turn around, the car has stopped and the driver leans out the window and the _exact_ following conversation ensues:

Him: "You what?"
Me: "You cut the corner a bit"
"And what does it have to do with you?"
"Your putting other people in danger, drive properly"

The driver then starts driving away and I read out his numberplate. As I do so, he then stops and the door opens. I start riding off and he then returns to his car as I say "See ya" (not in a confrontational or provocative way).
I then ride on and try to forget the incident. When I notice that he is behind a car behind me. As he starts to overtake, he cuts in and stops. I have two options: 1-Jump on the pavement and ride away. or 2-stand my ground and just let him make himself look a fool.I stand my ground and say very little. The following lecture from him begins:

Me: "Its all on camera"
Him: "I don't care, I don't give a toss if it's on camera or not. If you talk to me like that again then I will wrap that f**king bike right up your nose, is that clear? IS THAT CLEAR? Is it clear otherwise I will rip that f**king helmet right off your head! Is it clear? IS IT CLEAR!!"
Me: "I am calling the police"
Him: "Call whoever you f**king like, your the one who started this mate"
Me: "I havent started anything, you cut the corner"
Him: "Nothing to do with you, nothing to do with you"
Me: "What if I had been turning right?"
Him: "But you werent turning right! You shut your mouth because I am going to knock you out in a minute boy. Gobby little c*nt"

He then walks back to his car and points to his numberplate "there's my number", to which I lastly reply "got it all on camera" and he parts with a welcome "f*ck off". He then drives away just as I start talking to the officer on the phone.

Can I please stress that at no point did I SWEAR or act threatening or provocative in any way. Whenever I replied to him, I paused and thought about what I was going to say so I didnt cause anything worse to happen.This guy was either having a bad day (even though the sun was out) or was just one of those types.

I reported the incident and am going to the local police station to give a statement tomorrow morning.

Any advice and opinions on the incident would be welcome. What amused me is that he repeatedly refered to my bike and my helmet! He must have a keen eye.


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## gambatte (19 Jun 2012)

*You're Matthew T, so it must have been your fault. *​*OK*​*just wanted to be the first to get that in...*​* *​


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## Ian Cooper (19 Jun 2012)

As soon as he offered to 'wrap the bike up your nose' he committed an assault. You should press charges because that guy is clearly unbalanced and dangerous. Let's see how he reacts to a visit from P.C. Plod. These bully types are cowards at heart, and they tend to play a different tune when the boys in blue drop in for a chat.


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## Matthew_T (19 Jun 2012)

Ian Cooper said:


> As soon as he offered to 'wrap the bike up your nose' he committed an assault. You should press charges because that guy is clearly unbalanced and dangerous. Let's see how he reacts to a visit from P.C. Plod. They tend to play a different tune when the boys in blue drop in for a chat.


We throughout the whole incident (second part of it when he approached me) he had his finger right in my face and repeatedly tapped my nose lightly (he still touched me). I had in the back of my mind the word ASSAULT but at no point did I mention it to him because I suspected he would say something like "Assault? This is an assault!" I didnt want to take that risk.

BTW guys, would legal fees be covered by my insurance of this goes to court?


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## fossyant (19 Jun 2012)

Oh dear.

Get eating that porridge ! 

Just another one of life's idiots I am afraid, and even muttering can set them off. Probably not worth muttering, as people don't drive very well, and we all know folk don't like to be told so. 

You get it, let it go.


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## Glow worm (19 Jun 2012)

Ram the bike right up your *nose*? That's a refreshing change I suppose!


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## fossyant (19 Jun 2012)

All that's likely to happen is the guy gets a telling off. Legal Fees - no that's now't to do with this. If the Police decide there is enough to procecute, they will - you are just the victim.

Had you been 4 stone heavier, 10 years older, and muscular, he might not have chanced it.


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## Matthew_T (19 Jun 2012)

Glow worm said:


> Ram the bike right up your *nose*? That's a refreshing change I suppose!


He actually said "Wrap the bike up my nose". He seemed to change his mind half way through his sentence but maintained the flow of his speech. It confused me when he said it.


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## fossyant (19 Jun 2012)

Glow worm said:


> Ram the bike right up your *nose*? That's a refreshing change I suppose!


 
Usually ar$e !


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## Ian Cooper (19 Jun 2012)

Matthew_T said:


> We throughout the whole incident (second part of it when he approached me) he had his finger right in my face and repeatedly tapped my nose lightly (he still touched me).


 
That's 'assault and battery'. When he touched you he committed battery. Contrary to popular belief, assault is not a physical attack - it's merely a verbal threat that makes you apprehend an attack. When he touches you, that is battery.

In England and Wales, battery is usually a summary offence, but if tried, it can be punishable with imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months, or a fine not exceeding level 5 (£5000) on the standard scale, or both. Of course, usually it doesn't work out anywhere near that nicely, and these idiots usually get off with a warning.


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## Matthew_T (19 Jun 2012)

fossyant said:


> Had you been 4 stone heavier, 10 years older, and muscular, he might not have chanced it.


I think my age has a big thing to do with it. If someone elderly had been in my shoes, then the driver would probably have thought "He is old and lives in the past". It doesnt go through these people heads that I am young and have been taught the modern ways of the roads (and read up on my highway code which very few motorists do).


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## Matthew_T (19 Jun 2012)

Ian Cooper said:


> That's 'assault and battery'. When he touched you he committed battery. Contrary to popular belief, assault is not a physical attack - it's merely a verbal threat that makes you fear an attack. When he touches you, that is battery.


When I was on the phone to the police, I opened with "I have just been verbally assaulted by a motorist" (I was still shook up so my words were all over the place but the guy on the phone understood what I meaant).


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## Pottsy (19 Jun 2012)

If you criticise people's driving, this sort of thing will happen - it will get taken personally. 

Given the number of cr@p drivers on the road you will also be very busy and get beaten up every so often. 

It's best to relax and let this sort of thing go. Alternatively I suggest Buddhism or perhaps moving to an uninhabited island.


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## Crackle (19 Jun 2012)

Waiting at a junction where you


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## BSRU (19 Jun 2012)

He must have the hearing of a bat if he heard anything of your muttering under your breath.
In reply to his "You What?" I would have stated something completely different and unrelated to what you really said which would have confused him and maybe defused the situation.
I often talk to myself about things on the ride and a few times a passing driver has decided it must be about them and become irate.


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## gambatte (19 Jun 2012)

Pottsy said:


> It's best to relax and let this sort of thing go. Alternatively I suggest Buddhism or perhaps moving to an uninhabited island.


 
Yeah, those Shaolin Monks are buddhist & Kick ass!


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## fossyant (19 Jun 2012)

I generally ignore stupid driving, but if they very nearly take me out, they will get an "Oi, watch it" - even that can be enough of a 'snap' for some drivers, and they will tell you to 'f-off' and/or drive their cars at you - some folk are on a short fuse, so be aware.


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## fossyant (19 Jun 2012)

Do report it, the Police may just have a record against the car. It goes as an extra 'notch' on their records. A visit from the 'Police' is enough for most folk.


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## Matthew_T (19 Jun 2012)

Crackle said:


> Waiting at a junction where you


Strangely that does actually look like me (more like my brother). Although I am not a girl and had my sunglasses on.

I was waiting at a junction because I had just gone up a hill and was allowing traffic to pass (not something I normally do so I dont know what was wrong with me).


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## SquareDaff (19 Jun 2012)

Remind me never to move to North Wales. I have 1 or 2 of these incidents in a year. You seem to encounter them regularly.


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## Matthew_T (19 Jun 2012)

fossyant said:


> Do report it, the Police may just have a record against the car. It goes as an extra 'notch' on their records. A visit from the 'Police' is enough for most folk.


The guy on the phone asked me for the numberplate. Unfortunately, I had my mind set on not getting hit so I wasnt really paying attention. I have him the first 4 digits though.

This is the first time in a long time (since last year) that I have had this sort of a confrontation with a driver where I have called the police.


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## Hip Priest (19 Jun 2012)

There are a lot of nutters about. Best not to antagonise them over minor transgressions.


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## thnurg (19 Jun 2012)

Having subscribed to your youtube channel I'm looking forward to that one.


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## Matthew_T (19 Jun 2012)

Hip Priest said:


> There are a lot of nutters about. Best not to antagonise them over minor transgressions.


I didnt antagonise him, he just took my mutter very personally and overreacted.


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## Matthew_T (19 Jun 2012)

thnurg said:


> Having subscribed to your youtube channel I'm looking forward to that one.


Editting it now. I will have to show the police the raw footage though, they dont like it when you mess about with it because it looks like you are hiding something.


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## Hip Priest (19 Jun 2012)

Criticism can antagonise some drivers. Which is why I tend to avoid it unless it's a particularly severe transgression.


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## Mugshot (19 Jun 2012)

Matthew_T said:


> I start riding off and he then returns to his car as I say "See ya" (not in a confrontational or provocative way).


I'm afraid there's no way that the "See ya" wasn't provocative, I'm guessing you didn't know him, so the "See ya" was sarcastic, ipso facto, provocative. If you hadn't said it he wouldn't have come after you. Forget about the driving critique, the "See ya" was the real mistake.


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## MrJamie (19 Jun 2012)

I think you have to be very careful with confrontations Matt, theres a chance sooner or later one of these road rage idiots will hit you or run you off the road. The other guy was clearly to blame, but its not worth being right if its got you beat up or run off the road and hurt.

Even if you muttered it quietly you probably looked at the car/driver so he sees you looking at him and mouthing something and later saying "See ya" and riding off is going to look provocative or sarcastic. Also if someone is losing control, telling them its all on camera kinda traps them because they cant just walk away and forget it happened. As I said its not your fault and I hope the guy gets in trouble for it - just personally I think its better to avoid the nutters.


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## Melonfish (19 Jun 2012)

Ian Cooper said:


> As soon as he offered to 'wrap the bike up your nose' he committed an assault. You should press charges because that guy is clearly unbalanced and dangerous. Let's see how he reacts to a visit from P.C. Plod. These bully types are cowards at heart, and they tend to play a different tune when the boys in blue drop in for a chat.


 
I think its actually section 29 assault (common assault) as he prodded him in the nose to emphasise his point rather then to cause him physical harm through battery (section 39)
at least i doubt CPS would go for the latter but rather the former.
regardless this is absolutely a case of assault, no question.


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## oldfatfool (19 Jun 2012)

If when a cyclist is killed, a not very bright rear light is seen to mitigate speeding whilst driving an unroadworthy vehicle then I am afraid a see ya to antagonise an angry motorist will mitigate any future action of the said motorist. Deffo report it and look forward to the vid.


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## Matthew_T (19 Jun 2012)

Melonfish said:


> I think its actually section 29 assault (common assault) as he prodded him in the nose to emphasise his point rather then to cause him physical harm through battery (section 39)
> at least i doubt CPS would go for the latter but rather the former.
> regardless this is absolutely a case of assault, no question.


Thanks for that, I was going to ask to what I should reply to the officer when they say "What action would you like us to take?"


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## benb (19 Jun 2012)

Matthew_T said:


> Thanks for that, I was going to ask to what I should reply to the officer when they say "What action would you like us to take?"


 
I don't think you would be expected to know the exact act of parliament under which you would want him charged, so a simple "charged with assault" would suffice there.


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## Matthew_T (19 Jun 2012)

benb said:


> I don't think you would be expected to know the exact act of parliament under which you would want him charged, so a simple "charged with assault" would suffice there.


Yes, thats what I meant sorry. In all the past incidents I have had where i have reported it, I have told the police that 'A word' with the driver would suffice. It is good to know the exact act so that they dont do him for anything less though.


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## Ian Cooper (19 Jun 2012)

MrJamie said:


> I think you have to be very careful with confrontations Matt, theres a chance sooner or later one of these road rage idiots will hit you or run you off the road.


 
Which is why it's very important to report this sort of thing to the police. They know how to defuse these issues and make the perpetrator know not to cause such problems in future.


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## Ian Cooper (19 Jun 2012)

Melonfish said:


> I think its actually section 29 assault (common assault) as he prodded him in the nose to emphasise his point rather then to cause him physical harm through battery (section 39).


 
Yup. You're right. I'd forgotten the 'common assault' issue.


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## TwickenhamCyclist (19 Jun 2012)

Some people can get wound up over anything... he obviously knew he had driven badly otherwise how would he know you were muttering about him? Sounds like assault to me but my money is on plod, at best, “having a word”... hope I’m wrong but, if you can kill a cyclist because you are speeding in poor weather conditions, aren’t paying attention and have a dirty windscreen and still walk free from court then I doubt, in the grand scheme of things, anyone other than fellow cyclists and a few internet trolls will take the blindest bit of notice...
Having said that, being older and bigger and not really giving a to$$ myself, and in full knowledge that plod will do nothing, i find in situations similar to that, that leaning on their car while they attempt to lecture you can elevate their blood pressure to near fatal levels, add to that acting really thick/purposely failing to understand them, you can wind them up even more...


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## Ian Cooper (19 Jun 2012)

Hip Priest said:


> There are a lot of nutters about. Best not to antagonise them over minor transgressions.


 
I don't think it's 'antagonizing' to point out poor driving. We can't go around assuming everyone is a psychopath - if we did, no motorist would ever improve and everyone's driving would just get progressively worse. And I don't think cutting a corner while someone is at the corner is a minor transgression - at some point it could result in a fatality. If no one was at the corner, okay, but having been the victim of two such 'minor transgressions' in the last week (on the same day, no less), they are scary and can be deadly.


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## Boris Bajic (19 Jun 2012)

This is a very unfortunate situation and one that I'm glad didn't involve anyone getting hurt.

It happened. How it's dealt with will depend in part on the OP's next move. Nobody on CC has seen the video, but on the basis of the OP's description, these are my thoughts:

1. It sounds as if the corner-cutting by the errant motorist was not posing a threat to anyone (apologies if I'm wrong here). One sees scores of motorists cutting corners every day. Most of the time it is a fairly benign activity, for all that it is lazy.

2. I imagine that either the 'muttering' was louder than intended or it was accompanied by some readable body language. It is hard enough to hear muttered comments from another road user when cycling. In a car, it is almost impossible. My wife often fails to hear me when I'm in the passenger seat... Matthew, are you sure it was just muttered?

3. The driver sounds like a prize turnip and his actions as described sound unmitigably poor and aggressive. Nonetheless, I think the parting comment ("See Ya") must have come across as in some way taking the Mickey or taking a provocative stance. Mad as the driver may be, there are few people who will turn their car round to confront another road user after a mild bit of banter.

I am not in any way excusing the driver. I do not want that sort of person on the road anywhere near my own children (who span the OP's age). Nonetheless, I believe that actions Matthew took may have contributed in some way to turning a poorly cut corner into a face-to-face tiff.

This is not a criticism of Matthew or an exoneration of the driver. It is interesting that you make it clear in the OP that you didn't swear, Matthew. For many people, there is much more to provocation than foul language or physical posture. For all that the driver seems to have been nine parts Loony Tunes, something provoked him.

You mention in the OP that you thought before speaking each time you spoke. It was an ugly situation and you have my sympathy, but perhaps the next time the thought might helpfully be along the lines of "Say nothing".

It sounds like a valuable lesson. You may report this; you may not. Whatever you do, looking at the video again will allow you to see how and why this confrontation developed from what many see as an innocuous and uncommentworthy piece of lazy driving.

Bottom line: I'm glad you're OK.


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## MrJamie (19 Jun 2012)

Ian Cooper said:


> I don't think it's 'antagonizing' to point out poor driving. We can't go around assuming everyone is a psychopath - if we did, no motorist would ever improve and everyone's driving would just get progressively worse.


 I couldnt really disagree more  Its one of the most antagonistic or at least provocative things to criticise someone elses driving, people take it very personally and are very defensive about it (ironically us cyclists are also very defensive about our cycling skills). Maybe im just cynical but i dont believe people often take note of a cyclist (or any other road user) telling them to change their behaviour, nor do i think its my responsibility to "educate" other road users or act as some kind of self-proclaimed pseudo police.

Its hard enough to change the opinion of people you know and are on good terms with, let alone be constructive with an adrenaline rush to a guy whos just put your life at risk and thinks you're a self righteous ass... for criticising his road use. I dont think many people could do this anyway.


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## Matthew_T (19 Jun 2012)

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cmyJuwQuRg&feature=youtu.be


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## MontyVeda (19 Jun 2012)

is cutting over the dashed white lines of a junction really poor driving?


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## Dan B (19 Jun 2012)

F'ckin awful overtake, too. Let us know how this one works out


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## classic33 (19 Jun 2012)

Unless the police have decided there will be no further action, you might be better removing the video.


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## benb (19 Jun 2012)

Matthew_T said:


> Yes, thats what I meant sorry. In all the past incidents I have had where i have reported it, I have told the police that 'A word' with the driver would suffice. It is good to know the exact act so that they dont do him for anything less though.


 
Well, the specific offence (if any) he is charged with is down to the CPS not the police.


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## classic33 (19 Jun 2012)

MontyVeda said:


> is cutting over the dashed white lines of a junction really poor driving?


 
In the way it was done, I'd say so.


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## Ian Cooper (19 Jun 2012)

MrJamie said:


> I couldnt really disagree more  Its one of the most antagonistic or at least provocative things to criticise someone elses driving, people take it very personally and are very defensive about it...


 
Then they need to grow up! I often ask other drivers, with whom I interact on the road and with whom I get to talk, how my cycling was. It's important to be open to criticism, especially when doing something as dangerous as driving. Those who are not open to criticism really shouldn't be operating a 3000lb vehicle at speeds in excess of 15mph.


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## oldfatfool (19 Jun 2012)

Very calm Mathew, whilst I think you did 'escalate' the problem with your sarcastic see ya, I would have been tempted to let him have my helmet,right on the bridge of his nose


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## benb (19 Jun 2012)

MontyVeda said:


> is cutting over the dashed white lines of a junction really poor driving?


 
Yes.


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## MontyVeda (19 Jun 2012)

classic33 said:


> In the way it was done, I'd say so.


 
having since watched the video, i disagree. nobody was put in danger by this cornering. Had Matt been lined up to turn right it would be a different scenario, but as it stands, it's a non event that escalates for no good reason.


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## sabian92 (19 Jun 2012)

While I'm not saying he was in the right, some times just saying naff all is best. You don't know how mad people are in cars.

I hate to say it, but he was right when he said "but you weren't turning right, were you?". You were way over to the left, you were no way in any sort of danger so maybe saying nothing is best next time.

Of course, if somebody properly drives like a mental and puts you in real danger, say something by all means.


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## Hip Priest (19 Jun 2012)

I've seen the video. Words fail me. Call me a bully if you like, but when Matt eventually gets assaulted by a motorist, I hope those of you encouraging this behaviour can live with yourselves.


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## gaz (19 Jun 2012)

Only watched the video, not read any of the posts and i'm sure I'm repeating what others have said, but I think it is good advice and I would say it to anyone.

Don't say anything to anyone! It's just not worth it, you never know who they are, what their state of mind is and what they are prepared to do over nothing. The key is to protect your self, if you aren't a 6ft 3 rugby player then people will try and bully you if they think they have a chance against you, just like the guy in the video did.

You can get away with it in some circumstances if you do it in a light hearted way.


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## gaz (19 Jun 2012)

MontyVeda said:


> having since watched the video, i disagree. nobody was put in danger by this cornering. Had Matt been lined up to turn right it would be a different scenario, but as it stands, it's a non event that escalates for no good reason.


So as long as it doesn't effect anyone, it is ok?
So it's ok to go through a red light if it won't affect anyone? it's ago to go across a train crossing when the barriers are down if you can make it?

It was poor driving, but in my opinion, doesn't warrant a comment.


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## dawesome (19 Jun 2012)

Car shows as uninsured.


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## MontyVeda (19 Jun 2012)

gaz said:


> So as long as it doesn't effect anyone, it is ok?
> *So it's ok to go through a red light if it won't affect anyone? it's ago to go across a train crossing when the barriers are down if you can make it?*
> 
> It was poor driving, but in my opinion, doesn't warrant a comment.


 
an idiotic reply Gaz.... can you really compare a line of white paint which, for all intents and purposes, is a guide designed to be driven over, with a red light or the barrier at a level crossing?

As Mr. T would say "You crazy fool!"


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## potsy (19 Jun 2012)

Hip Priest said:


> I've seen the video. Words fail me. Call me a bully if you like, but when Matt eventually gets assaulted by a motorist, I hope those of you encouraging this behaviour can live with yourselves.


There are also lots of people on here that have tried to get Matthew to not get involved, unfortunately he doesn't seem to be taking that in.
My opinion is it was a nothing incident, sort of driving you see daily, I'm sure with that level of overreaction from the driver, he will already be known to the police.


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## dawesome (19 Jun 2012)

MontyVeda said:


> is cutting over the dashed white lines of a junction really poor driving?


 
Uninsured drivers cost the rest of us £400m every year, as well as the injuries and deaths they mete out.


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## Dan B (19 Jun 2012)

A line of white paint is no more "designed to be driven over" than a red light is to be driven past

Cutting the corner may well be a "nobody really cares, move on" action, but it's certainly not what they teach in driving lessons.


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## benb (19 Jun 2012)

Hip Priest said:


> I've seen the video. Words fail me. Call me a bully if you like, but when Matt eventually gets assaulted by a motorist, I hope those of you encouraging this behaviour can live with yourselves.


 


potsy said:


> There are also lots of people on here that have tried to get Matthew to not get involved, unfortunately he doesn't seem to be taking that in.
> My opinion is it was a nothing incident, sort of driving you see daily, I'm sure with that level of overreaction from the driver, he will already be known to the police.


 
The thing is, Matthew's initial "provocation" was nothing. Unless you're suggesting that we should restrain ourselves from displaying any kind of reaction at all to other people's poor driving (not so much as a glance or a shake of the head), I don't see how Matthew's response could reasonably be described as provocation at all.


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## MontyVeda (19 Jun 2012)

dawesome said:


> Uninsured drivers cost the rest of us £400m every year, as well as the injuries and deaths they mete out.


and that has exactly what to do with cutting over the white lines when turning into a junction?

you may as well have said "Genocide has been responsible for thousands, if not millions of deaths"


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## potsy (19 Jun 2012)

benb said:


> The thing is, Matthew's initial "provocation" was nothing. Unless you're suggesting that we should restrain ourselves from displaying any kind of reaction at all to other people's poor driving (not so much as a glance or a shake of the head), I don't see how Matthew's response could reasonably be described as provocation at all.


But he does seem to attract this kind of situation, no?
I agree, a 'normal' driver and it would have been fine, but people like the nutter in the vid don't take kindly to be criticised by a 'child'


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## MontyVeda (19 Jun 2012)

Dan B said:


> A line of white paint is no more "designed to be driven over" than a red light is to be driven past
> 
> ....


 
this gets my vote for bullshit comment of the day


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## dawesome (19 Jun 2012)

The car shows as uninsured. You'd prefer uninsured drivers evade detection?


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## gaz (19 Jun 2012)

MontyVeda said:


> an idiotic reply Gaz.... can you really compare a line of white paint which, for all intents and purposes, is a guide designed to be driven over, with a red light or the barrier at a level crossing?
> 
> As Mr. T would say "You crazy fool!"


I thought an idiotic response was worthy of an idiotic post.


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## Hip Priest (19 Jun 2012)

benb said:


> The thing is, Matthew's initial "provocation" was nothing. Unless you're suggesting that we should restrain ourselves from displaying any kind of reaction at all to other people's poor driving (not so much as a glance or a shake of the head), I don't see how Matthew's response could reasonably be described as provocation at all.


 
It wasn't nothing, though I agree it was minor. But once the guy had told him where to go and started to drive off, Matt inflamed it again by yelling his number plate out. Then he put the icing on the cake by shouting 'see ya'.

There is no excuse for threatening violence, and the guy was obviously a bit of a nutter, but if Matt carries on hectoring motorists over petty trangressions then he's going to get hurt.


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## Hip Priest (19 Jun 2012)

dawesome said:


> The car shows as uninsured. You'd prefer uninsured drivers evade detection?


 
Wow. That's an ALMIGHTY straw man.


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## oldfatfool (19 Jun 2012)

dawesome said:


> The car shows as uninsured. You'd prefer uninsured drivers evade detection?


In that case sorry Matt, no wonder the bloke was happy for you to have his number, no Insurance, probably no tax,possibly no license and DEFFO not registered to him.


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## dawesome (19 Jun 2012)

That's an automatic 6 points, quite apart from the assault. I'd suggest it's a good thing the maniac is caught before someone really gets hurt.


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## Jimmy Doug (19 Jun 2012)

gaz said:


> Don't say anything to anyone! It's just not worth it, you never know who they are, what their state of mind is and what they are prepared to do over nothing. The key is to protect your self, if you aren't a 6ft 3 rugby player then people will try and bully you if they think they have a chance against you, just like the guy in the video did.


 
Couldn't agree more with this. Normally I don't like to get involoved in heated discussions on Internet forums, but after watching the video I just had to add my voice to the many that are telling Matt to learn to button it. Sorry Matt - believe me I never intentionally say anything to hurt someone's feelings but in this case I feel that the consequences of your cheek could really result in more than mere hurt feelings. Just learn to ignore bad driving - the police usually get them in the end anyway (and to be honest his corner cut didn't look that dramatic to me). Your provocative nature does clearly wind people up. In 30 years' cycling I've never had an incident beyond the occasional rude remark shouted out of the window or the odd piss take. It could be luck, I know; but somehow I don't think it is.


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## Gary E (19 Jun 2012)

Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the incident the guys reaction was OTT.
Yes, maybe Matt should have turned the other cheek but then so should the bloke.
Looks like a little man picking on a kid to me, very brave!


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## dawesome (19 Jun 2012)

Jimmy Doug said:


> Just learn to ignore bad driving - the police usually get them in the end anyway.


 
_Hollow laugh_


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## ManiaMuse (19 Jun 2012)

One time I was walking along the pavement while singing (weird I know but there was no-one about...) and momentarily glanced at a driver who pulled up, got out of his mercedes and started screaming at me 'EXCUSE ME, EXCUSE ME SIR!."

I ignored him, didn't look back and eventually his wife and children started shouting at him for making a fool out of himself.

There are some serious nutters in this world, not just on the roads but everywhere, who do not take much to set off. Best advice I can give is to focus on your positioning and awareness when cycling and treat drivers (and other cyclists) as part of their machines rather than people with personalities.

While cycling your priorities should be to anticipate other road users doing unpredictable things, positioning yourself to try to prevent them doing unpredictable things, and to remove yourself from danger if they do attempt said unpredictable things. No point getting wound up if someone does something stupid but ultimately hasn't harmed you as you are more likely to get distracted from anticipating other road users doing unpredictable things. After all cycling is about getting from A to B safely in good time or just for pleasure, no need to let some argumentative motorist slow you down, compromise your safety or spoil your mood.

I know some people here say drivers need to be educated, and there are probably some who do benefit from being told their driving is poor. However there are some who are willing to get out and threaten you with violence and the thing is you can never tell what you are going to get if you provoke them. If someone does get out and approach you then you need to make sure you are willing to take them on or plan an escape route because you never know when it might get nasty. In my opinion it is just not worth it, just cycle on and pretend it didn't happen, be more zen or something...


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## Hip Priest (19 Jun 2012)

ManiaMuse said:


> One time I was walking along the pavement while singing (weird I know but there was no-one about...) and momentarily glanced at a driver who pulled up, got out of his mercedes and started screaming at me 'EXCUSE ME, EXCUSE ME SIR!


 
I went out for a late night run in the dark once. I saw a car coming out of a petrol station with no lights on, so I pointed to his lights in the universal 'mate, you've forgot to put your lights on' manner, and he went MENTAL.

"What's your f-ing problem?"
"Just letting your know your lights are off."
"What's it got to do with you?"
"Nothing, I was just trying to be helpful."
"F-off you c-"
"Err....sorry"


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## Enid Agnus Dei (19 Jun 2012)

I used to love working on buildings sites as it meant I cycled to work and back in steel toecap boots, a taxi driver cut me up one morning and when I caught him up at the traffic lights I asked him if he needed glasses or was he just in too much of a rush to even see me?

As ever the same old story, didn't see you, come on 7.30 bright sunny morning hi vis jacket on....

I decided he wasn't going to say sorry or even be honest so as a parting gift put a nice dent in his car to remind him the next time he sees a cyclist to not cut them up, yes maybe I was wrong to kick his car but a small price for him to pay compared to what might have happened had he knocked me off and injured me.


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## Jimmy Doug (19 Jun 2012)

ManiaMuse said:


> While cycling your priorities should be to anticipate other road users doing unpredictable things, positioning yourself to try to prevent them doing unpredictable things, and to remove yourself from danger if they do attempt said unpredictable things. No point getting wound up if someone does something stupid but ultimately hasn't harmed you as you are more likely to get distracted from anticipating other road users doing unpredictable things. After all cycling is about getting from A to B safely in good time or just for pleasure, no need to let some argumentative motorist slow you down, compromise your safety or spoil your mood.


 
This is very, very good advice.
Also, someone earlier on told you that you should remove the video from the site. In my opinion this is a very good idea (and don't put it on youtube either). The guy could very easily fall on the video and I imagine he's a local (sounds it). It doesn't seem too unlikely that you two could cross each other's paths again.


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## MrJamie (19 Jun 2012)

Ian Cooper said:


> Then they need to grow up! I often ask other drivers, with whom I interact on the road and with whom I get to talk, how my cycling was. It's important to be open to criticism, especially when doing something as dangerous as driving. Those who are not open to criticism really shouldn't be operating a 3000lb vehicle at speeds in excess of 15mph.


Absolutely, I just dont believe its worth telling off drivers because so many are so resistant to it and get very aggressive as a result. Matthew is in the right and should be entitled to express his opinion on poor driving. With all due respect to Matt who seems like a very nice guy, he bravely stands up for himself sometimes when he would be better imho to realise he needs to exit the scenario or avoid the whole thing in the first place by keeping his head down. It shouldnt have to be like that but I dont want to hear of him getting hit by an idiot or their car. :/


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## TonyEnjoyD (19 Jun 2012)

Crackle said:


> Waiting at a junction where you


Nope, just trying to tease out his bike which has been wrapped...up his nose


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## Dan B (19 Jun 2012)

MontyVeda said:


> this gets my vote for bullshit comment of the day


OK fine, in what way is a white line designed to be driven over? My understanding is that it acts as a separator between traffic going in one direction and traffic going the other way, not as a set of guidelines to slalom over

From HC rule 180: "Do not cut the corner. "


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## Hip Priest (19 Jun 2012)

The driver's words seem a little slurred.


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## fossyant (19 Jun 2012)

Pretty minor thing the cutting the corner. Driver total over reaction, and if that old bar steward had come after me I'd be advising him to do one before I smashed his face.

He picked on you as you were a youngster. 

That said, the driver is in the poo if the car is not insured. Make sure you report the incident, and say that someone has run the reg through askmd website. PS the askmd website is advertised on the radio quite a lot.


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## dawesome (19 Jun 2012)

At the very least that driver's going to find his car insurance is going to rocket.


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## TonyEnjoyD (19 Jun 2012)

My thoughts (rare occasion...thinking)

He cut the corner, realistically ...so what, it happens and we do it as cyclists.
Was t worth getting into dialogue, no, but once in, hard to drag out.
Re your "see ya" comment, uncalled for and slightly confrontational, but surprised he would have heard it considering you said rather than shouted it and e was driving away at he time.
His subsequent chase, pull up in front of you and confrontation was well out of order and ge needs to be taken to task by the police.
Your responses at that point were quite measured and I hope/hope you ad realised you were in a dangerous situation.

All-in-all an avoidable but very threatening situation.

You seem to be a bit of a target Matthew_T


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## ianrauk (19 Jun 2012)

I do find this amazing with Matthew. This is now the second time that he has been confronted by a motorist in a very short amount of time. In seven years of commuting the mean streets of London only once has a motorist dared to confront me. (He didn't win) Maybe it's because I am an ugly sourfaced tattooed git who has a very good angry face rather then a little young kid that looks like he can be easily bullied. Because that is what it is.. bullying. But at the end of the day, why put yourself in that situation? I do agree with a poster above. There was no need for the 'See Ya' comment or the reading of his number plate to him. That inflamed the situation. The motorist must be a little unhinged to say the least to have stopped anyway so why escalate the situation? Matthew, a helmet cam is not going to save you from a beating. Sometimes you just have to let things go. Make your point and go.

But this moton nutter does need reporting.


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## addictfreak (19 Jun 2012)

My thoughts for what it's worth.

Not a great bit of driving in the first instance. But it didn't cause anyone ( Matt in particular) any problems. So was there a need to pass comment, I think not. Matt seems to have the knack of winding people up often with sarcasm or condescending comments.
What occurs after the original confrontation however is totally out of order on the part of the driver. The driver certainly needs a visit from the law.
What amazes me are the amount of 'incidents' he is involved in. I commute everyday at peak times, as well as covering many miles a week general cycling, which I have done for many years. In all that time I may had one or two incidents worthy of being called confrontational.


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## lit (19 Jun 2012)

As has been said many times, sometimes it's best not to say anything unless you feel happy with what might happen (I don't think you expected him to go after you - I've had drivers try and block me for showing displeasure with their overtakes -you've got 3 choices, stop them blocking you in, have an escape route or be prepared to stand up to them.


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## CopperCyclist (19 Jun 2012)

Ok, I've had a think, and I think this is the best way to say it.

If I leave my front door unlocked, and then come home to find I've been burgled, it's not my fault. I've done nothing 'wrong'. The burglar is entirely in the wrong, they are the one that should be vilified and brought to justice.

However, leaving my door unlocked is not smart. It's not advisable. I gain nothing from it. It's something I could have changed that MAY have prevented the burglary.

Therefore, I (as a sensible person) will choose to lock my door, even though I don't have to.


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## gaz (19 Jun 2012)

ianrauk said:


> I do find this amazing with Matthew. This is now the second time that he has been confronted by a motorist in a very short amount of time. In seven years of commuting the mean streets of London only once has a motorist dared to confront me. (He didn't win) Maybe it's because I am an ugly sourfaced *tattooed git who has a very good angry face* rather then a little young kid that looks like he can be easily bullied. Because that is what it is.. bullying. But at the end of the day, why put yourself in that situation? I do agree with a poster above. There was no need for the 'See Ya' comment or the reading of his number plate to him. That inflamed the situation. The motorist must be a little unhinged to say the least to have stopped anyway so why escalate the situation? Matthew, a helmet cam is not going to save you from a beating. Sometimes you just have to let things go. Make your point and go.
> 
> But this moton nutter does need reporting.


probably the bold bits :P


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## fossyant (19 Jun 2012)

gaz said:


> probably the bold bits :P



I can do the bits without a tattoo.


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## Thomk (19 Jun 2012)

Matt was childish and unwise. Angry man committed assault. The two things are a mile away from each other. We are all childish and unwise sometimes (especially my 4 year old) but we don't all go around committing assault (although my 4 year old does do this as well). Angry man is dangerous and needs to be punished for his actions.


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## Thomk (19 Jun 2012)

[QUOTE 1897240, member: 45"]Matthew, I hope you've seen that in the past I've been supportive of you rather than flaming you as some have....

This is about age. An older bloke was admonished in a pretty condescending manner by what he saw as a young boy. You being cheeky to him. I can understand him getting wound up by the way you spoke to him, regardless of his driving. Add to that a bit of hurt pride and this just escalated.

Of course he was wrong to threaten you. I don't see a problem with him coming back to talk to you though, as it's only what most of us have done at some point. And you pretty much invited it with your "see ya" comment when you saw that he'd got out to speak to you.

This needn't have escalated as it did, and you're both to blame.[/quote]
I agree with most of this and think you are right. But you can sometimes be right and yet wrong.

They are certainly both to blame. But how much of the blame is really Matt's for the assault upon him? Yes he is to blame for the incident continuing but the assault itself is the fault of the adult who chose to commit it. He laid hands on the lad and he needs to tale FULL responsibility for that. It is against the law and not acceptable in a civilised society.

I agree with your analysis of angry mans actions but he went over the line and that, as far as i'm concerned, is that.

I agree that Matt needs to reassess his methods of communication.


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## Matthew_T (19 Jun 2012)

I accept that some of the things I said, mainly the "See ya" comment was unwise. However, my initial mutter was not suffice to create such a reaction from a civilised person. Therefore, very little was my actual fault. The comment I made could have been seen as provocative, but I said it as an end to the whole incident, I didnt intend for it to be seen as a challenge.

Many people on here have refered to me as a 'child' and 'kid'. Can I remind you that I am 18 and even though I may look young, that is no reason for someone to think that they can 'take me on'. I may be 5'6'' and weight under 9 stone but it doesnt mean that I cannot stand my ground. The only reason that I didnt take myself out of the second situation was that I had nowhere to go and decided that listening to the drivers comments and not retaliating would be the best option (if the only).

Once again people have said that I am a 'magnet for trouble' and 'in ___ many years, I have only had two incidents like this'. People need to realise that I am the only one with a helmet cam in North Wales, and as a result, collate all the incidents which are probably spread over hundreds of cyclists in other areas. As I am the only cyclist who doesnt ride in the gutter and does actually abide by the law and safety suggestions in this area, motorists are not used to it.

When I first started cycling on the roads, I had HUNDREDS of close passes every week. Things have got a lot better but I still have more incidents than the average cyclist. I dont know if it is me or if it is the area, but something needs to change.

I do have a tendancy to not be able to keep my mouth shut, but in this situation, I muttered a comment. It was not directed at the driver, it was just a general comment on the actual action. I have learnt a lot from the people on here with there words of wisdom, and I am still learning. But please dont turn feedback into insults.


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## dawesome (19 Jun 2012)

stick with it Matt, you're doing the right thing.


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## 2wd (19 Jun 2012)

I don't normally comment on these things much, but have read some of Matthews antics in the past, he does seek to be confrontational.

I bet angry man isn't normally that angry and Matthew just happen to wind him up with his comments

I class myself as a good driver, who can read the road well and maybe I would have cut that corner in the circumstances,if some kid sat waiting on a corner started slagging me off then I think I would have stopped and asked Matthew to clarify his reasons for passing comment.

I don't condone Angry man's behaviour and he went OTT with the aggression, but he's an adult being wound up by a youth.

Yep he cut the corner, but from what I can see there was no other traffic as such around,only Matthew being a heat seeking missile again and waiting to pass comment and judgement on all who aren't perfect

To sum it up Matthew,your header on the video is "Road rage over something minor"

Minor being the key word which you turned into a major.

How many times do people on here have to advise you to just get on and enjoy your cycling or we can 100% gaurantee there will be an Angry Man out there who will put you in hospital.

This is good advice, which is given to you by a lot of people on here who don't want to see you hurt.


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## Gary E (19 Jun 2012)

Matt, if I offended you calling you a kid I apologise. It's all relative you see - you're younger than 2 of my kids!

As I said, the blokes reaction to your comment (hands up here, I make the same sort of comments occasionally too) was well over the top regardless of any verbal offence you may or may not have given!


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## boydj (19 Jun 2012)

2wd said:


> Yep he cut the corner, but from what I can see there was no other traffic as such around,only Matthew being a heat seeking missile again and waiting to pass comment and judgement on all who aren't perfect


I don't think that's fair. The guy's view of what's coming would have been impeded by Matthew, so cutting the corner was simply bad driving. Matthew's initial comment was no more than I, and probably many of us, would have made. The 'heat-seeking missile' comment is OTT.


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## 2wd (19 Jun 2012)

Rubbish Boydj

How on earth can Matthew on that corner impede his view

And Matthew in my opinion does "seek"


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## gambatte (19 Jun 2012)

Got a junction like that at the bottom of the road. Ironically I also drive a C5. Can't remember the number of times I've had people had to back out onto the main road because they've cut that corner in the same way and found me upto the centre line indicting right just about to stop at the junction.
100% sympathy Matt, bunch of lazy ***s.


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## benb (19 Jun 2012)

IMO confronting bad driving is exactly what we should be doing.
Obviously have a care for one's personal safety, but I don't see why Matt, or anyone, should refrain from passing comment on what's a pretty shoddy piece of driving.


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## totallyfixed (19 Jun 2012)

Don't let anyone tell you any different Matthew, you are terrific value for money, even if I had to pay


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## benb (19 Jun 2012)

2wd said:


> Rubbish Boydj
> 
> How on earth can Matthew on that corner impede his view
> 
> And Matthew in my opinion does "seek"



How could the driver be sure there wasn't another cyclist to Matt's right, turning right?


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## 400bhp (19 Jun 2012)

benb said:


> IMO confronting bad driving is exactly what we should be doing.
> Obviously have a care for one's personal safety, but I don't see why Matt, or anyone, should refrain from passing comment on what's a pretty shoddy piece of driving.


 
By commenting you are [seen as being] being judgmental - not a particularly nice character trait in itself.

Learning to know when to keep ones mouthshut is something he needs to learn.


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## Hip Priest (19 Jun 2012)

benb said:


> IMO confronting bad driving is exactly what we should be doing.
> Obviously have a care for one's personal safety, but I don't see why Matt, or anyone, should refrain from passing comment on what's a pretty shoddy piece of driving.


 
If I confronted every driver I saw making that sort of trivial transgression, I'd be arguing several times a day. I wouldn't have batted an eyelid at that 'incident', let alone entered a dialogue with the driver.

It really is no wonder that so many people see cyclists as sanctimonious twits.


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## Dan B (19 Jun 2012)

2wd said:


> I don't condone Angry man's behaviour and he went OTT with the aggression, but he's an adult being wound up by a youth.


He's not really being very adult about it, is he? "I'll stick your bike up your nose" is not really what passes for civilised discourse around these parts at least. "Adult" in these circumstances would have been to put your hand up to cutting the corner or at least to shrug it off, not to go chasing after the cyclist and then try to bully him


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## 400bhp (19 Jun 2012)

Dan B said:


> He's not really being very adult about it, is he? "I'll stick your bike up your nose" is not really what passes for civilised discourse around these parts at least. "Adult" in these circumstances would have been to put your hand up to cutting the corner or at least to shrug it off, not to go chasing after the cyclist and then try to bully him


 
You're right of course, but sometimes little things can trigger a response in us we would rather not have done.

Sh1t happens, we all get things wrong-move on.


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## Matthew_T (19 Jun 2012)

400bhp said:


> You're right of course, but sometimes little things can trigger a response in us we would rather not have done.
> 
> Sh1t happens, we all get things wrong-move on.


This guy did not get things wrong, he made things wrong. I didnt antagonise him (the "see ya" comment may have been uncalled for) and I didnt raise my voice like I used to in the past. I thought that I handled the situation well and didnt cause a confrontation. It was the drivers choice to stop and cause a situation when I simply passed comment, which wasnt even directed at him, it was at his standard of driving.

If this country is going to persist that people can operate a vehicle which can kill hundreds of lives out of a few driving lessons and a document which says that you are 'Safe to drive' then why can I not pass comment on the poor driving standards of some? I had every right to be displeased with the driving.

What if I had been moving from the left of the junction to the right to turn right? He would have gone straight into the side of me and knocked me off. I could go around all day saying if this, and if that but what if next time this and other motorists arent as lucky as to have noone turning right?


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## 2wd (19 Jun 2012)

benb said:


> How could the driver be sure there wasn't another cyclist to Matt's right, turning right?


 
watch the video again


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## BentMikey (20 Jun 2012)

Here's my thoughts - that driver will turn out to be untraceable, because the little scumbag will have registered the car to an abandoned or false address. If it turns out the popo can trace him, then I think he'll get either a warning or a formal caution.


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## MrJamie (20 Jun 2012)

Matthew_T said:


> This guy did not get things wrong, he made things wrong. I didnt antagonise him (the "see ya" comment may have been uncalled for) and I didnt raise my voice like I used to in the past. I thought that I handled the situation well and didnt cause a confrontation. It was the drivers choice to stop and cause a situation when I simply passed comment, which wasnt even directed at him, it was at his standard of driving.


I think overall you handled it pretty well, but you'd be much safer to let minor things like that go, or at least let them go when after getting out of his car at the original part and then chasing after you it was clear he was a nutter. As Ianrauk suggested, I doubt these incidents would be happening to you if you were a 6'6 tattooed skinhead and 18 stone. I could be wrong mate, but i think youve got far more chance of getting hurt by a driver you've told off, than if you just happily get on with your cycling keeping your head down and sticking the poor driving on youtube. You're certainly one brave guy from what ive seen though


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## edindave (20 Jun 2012)

If there isn't a bollard or 'keep left' sign did the driver technically do anything wrong in the first place? He didn't cross a solid white line.

Thankfully it wasn't a car full of thugs or the footage might be different.


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## daSmirnov (20 Jun 2012)

BentMikey said:


> Here's my thoughts - that driver will turn out to be untraceable, because the little scumbag will have registered the car to an abandoned or false address.


 
Aye. That's what I'm thinking, especially with the guy openly advertising his plate at the end.


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## mr_hippo (20 Jun 2012)

Be truthful now, how many of you, whilst driving or cycling, have never, ever cut a corner? We have all done it! If a driver or cyclist can see far enough down thw road that they are turning into there is a tendency to 'cut the corner`
Love your quote, Matt ,'...when I simply passed comment, which wasnt even directed at him, it was at his standard of driving.` If you are commenting on *his *standard,of driving you are commenting on *him. *If I see you wearing a check shirt and a striped tie and pass comment, Who is my comment directed at? It can only be at you or the person that got you dressed.
_*'What if I had been moving from the left of the junction to the right to turn right? He would have gone straight into the side of me and knocked me off. I could go around all day saying if this, and if that but what if next time this and other motorists arent as lucky as to have noone turning right?'*_
Are you trying to say that if you were positioned for a left turn and changed your mind and wanted to go right? Wait there until the road is clear both ways before moving off. If you were turning right, you should have already been in such a position that the driver would have seen you


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## Miquel In De Rain (20 Jun 2012)

Wow,what a tough guy.


SquareDaff said:


> Remind me never to move to North Wales. I have 1 or 2 of these incidents in a year. You seem to encounter them regularly.


 
So I take it you don't come across any bad driving on which you make a comment on then?

Im damn bloody sure I do,close passes and crap driving are unacceptable.


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## Jimmy Doug (20 Jun 2012)

I cannot believe that some people are encouraging him. If Matt ends up in hospital it'll be on their consciences.


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## Matthew_T (20 Jun 2012)

I cannot beleive people are agreeing with the drivers actions. Yes cutting the corner is minor and a non-incident, but I only passed comment. It was up to the driver to infuriate things. I wasnt expecting or anticipating anything less than the car just driving away.
The reason I passed comment was that the corner cut was very large and someone could have been coming from the other direction.


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## Silver Fox (20 Jun 2012)

Matthew, you can't put an old head on young shoulders but consider this a learning experience.

In real life, a still tongue can be a wise head. With idiots like the motorist in your video about, it could save you from getting hurt.


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## gavintc (20 Jun 2012)

Matthew_T said:


> I cannot beleive people are agreeing with the drivers actions. Yes cutting the corner is minor and a non-incident, but I only passed comment. It was up to the driver to infuriate things. I wasnt expecting or anticipating anything less than the car just driving away.
> The reason I passed comment was that the corner cut was very large and someone could have been coming from the other direction.


 
I hear the police are recruiting at the moment.


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## Matthew_T (20 Jun 2012)

gavintc said:


> I hear the police are recruiting at the moment.


Not in Wales, you have to speak welsh.


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## Hip Priest (20 Jun 2012)

Matthew_T said:


> I cannot beleive people are agreeing with the drivers actions. Yes cutting the corner is minor and a non-incident, but I only passed comment. It was up to the driver to infuriate things.


 
To be fair, he was starting to drive away before you shouted his reg plate at him.


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## PK99 (20 Jun 2012)

Matthew_T said:


> I cannot beleive people are agreeing with the drivers actions. Yes cutting the corner is minor and a non-incident,* but I only passed comment*. It was up to the driver to infuriate things. I wasnt expecting or anticipating anything less than the car just driving away.
> The reason I passed comment was that the corner cut was very large and someone could have been coming from the other direction.


 
Who were you passing comment to? the only people in hearing distance were you and the driver - keep such comments as thoughts not spoken and you will be much safer


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## Matthew_T (20 Jun 2012)

PK99 said:


> Who were you passing comment to? the only people in hearing distance were you and the driver - keep such comments as thoughts not spoken and you will be much safer


The comment was to myself. But I do need to learn when to shut up, as I did when he approached me.


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## dawesome (20 Jun 2012)

We must never comment on poor driving, we must cower and shrink and defer at all times. If someone takes a stupid risk that puts people in danger NEVER do anything and if that driver goes on to kill someone your conscience will be unblemished.


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## Boris Bajic (20 Jun 2012)

Matthew_T said:


> *I cannot beleive people are agreeing with the drivers actions*. Yes cutting the corner is minor and a non-incident, but I only passed comment. It was up to the driver to infuriate things. I wasnt expecting or anticipating anything less than the car just driving away.
> The reason I passed comment was that the corner cut was very large and someone could have been coming from the other direction.


 
Matthew, I haven't re-read the whole thread, but I don't think I've seen a post agreeing with the driver's actions.

Very many of the responses are helpful, constructive and positive, which is a rarity on an Internet forum.

In earlier threads quite a few people advised you that it was only a matter of time before your reaction to poor driving provoked a physical response. The incident on this thread almost got you one.

Most of the posters on this thread are firmly on your side. Many are also very concerned that you will end up getting hurt.

Many of the responses advising caution are from people like me, people in their 40s or 50s who've spent many decades driving and cycling with nary a harsh word spoken or heard. 

In my sleepy market town I see scores of cars cutting corners every week. Where no other road users are endangered, it elicits no response from the police. Once the driver in your clip had (aggressively) asked what you said, it was like the mood in a boxing ring just before the bell for Round One. There were several opportunities to remove yourself from the situation, but every swing of your spade dug the hole a little deeper. Do please review the tape, maybe with someone else pointing out places where silence might have served you better. 

On a not-entirely-unconnected note, I believe there may be some truth in the notion that your aggressor, now enraged, is not going to be driving very considerately immediately after that little spat and may feel slightly negative around bicycles for the foreseeable future. All actions have consequences. Even if you are quite happy to elicit the sort of response you witnessed, the next person this driver meets may not be.

I really would counsel you to think very hard before passing comment on the actions or behaviour of another road user. The best option would be to think long and hard until they are out of sight and out of earshot. 

I and many others on this forum wish you well, but we also fear that you will continue unwittingly to provoke this sort of reaction until you receive a bash on the nose or worse.

I hope this post doesn't offend.


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## Matthew_T (20 Jun 2012)

I only expect to be met with physical agression when I give verbal agression. At no point in this situation did I swear, gode, or start a physical confrontation. It was up to him to follow me. I felt that the incident should have stopped when I first made comment but from that point on it was all the drivers fault.

Why should I feel scared of the consequences of just commenting on the driving of others? People nowadays are let off with practically murder because people dont stand up for what they think is right. I had every right to pass comment as it may have affected me. I am not going to get a slattering from some people on here about me keeping my mouth shut, why should I? I have nothing to hide and can stand my ground when I want to. I am tired of being bullied into doing this and that. If I feel the need to comment, then I will. It is only up to me to comment.
This driver is not going to look at cyclists any differently as a result of this incident. I could have been standing as the exact point and commented, then what would have happened? Probably the same.


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## Matthew_T (20 Jun 2012)

There are people on here whom give reasonable and adult replies but there are quite a few who thing bullying is the way forward and in that case are no better than the driver in the incident here.


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## Andrew_P (20 Jun 2012)

The question is why did you feel the need to comment, also he seems to have outstanding hearing!!

Was going to give a long lecture and a few of my own versions but really lets face it Matthew needs to grow up, allow a bit of time for his voice to mature and put on about 2 stone if he is going to keep on winding up random motons more importantly he needs a good angry face. Maybe Ian and Fossy can post thiers up :-)


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## Boris Bajic (20 Jun 2012)

Matthew_T said:


> I only expect to be met with physical agression when I give verbal agression. At no point in this situation did I swear, gode, or start a physical confrontation[/B]. It was up to him to follow me. I felt that the incident should have stopped when I first made comment but from that point on it was all the drivers fault.
> 
> Why should I feel scared of the consequences of just commenting on the driving of others? People nowadays are let off with practically murder because people dont stand up for what they think is right. I had every right to pass comment as it may have affected me. I am not going to get a slattering from some people on here about me keeping my mouth shut, why should I? I have nothing to hide and can stand my ground when I want to. I am tired of being bullied into doing this and that. If I feel the need to comment, then I will. It is only up to me to comment.
> This driver is not going to look at cyclists any differently as a result of this incident. I could have been standing as the exact point and commented, then what would have happened? Probably the same.


 
Matt,

1. If you only expect physical aggression when you offer verbal aggression, you have a few surprises coming your way in life. Humankind has distilled unprovoked violence to an art form. It is as well to know this and be prepared for it.

2. The driver was in the wrong and his actions later in the footage were inexcusable and moronic. Nonetheless, many dispassionate viewers would argue that he was goaded when he first stopped his car. You may think otherwise. Some people who post on this forum may think otherwise. Many will have seen your "See Ya" and your reading of his plate as a form of goading. He certainly seemed to. 

The actions of the driver were disgraceful, but many viewers of your tape might harbour the tiny suspicion that there was a hint of goading from you. The great majority of contributors to this forum do not want to see you coming to any harm.


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## Panter (20 Jun 2012)

2wd said:


> I bet angry man isn't normally that angry and Matthew just happen to wind him up with his comments
> 
> .


 
I obviously don't know the man but I disagree. Had it been me in the car, I may have felt a little affronted by the comments of a young cyclist but certainly wouldn't have pursued him.
To false him to a stop and then threaten to "knock him out" are not the actions of a person in sound enough state of mind to be driving.

Personally, had I been in Mathews situation, I may have shook my head at the cutting of the junction, but wouldn't have commented. I just see too much of it and it's not a big deal in my opinion, just lazy.
Had it been me though I doubt the driver would've reacted the same way, I'm a long, long way from an 8 Stone 18 Year old.

Hopefully you'll get a result Matthew, although IMO you did escalate it, you may well have saved someone else from serious harm. Lord knows how he's have reacted had he cut someone up and got shouted at.

I think you need to chill out a little bit more. Sadly driving standards today are absolute crap, and sometimes you have to just let people get on with it provided no-one is endangered, obviously.
It's not right, but you shouldn't be endangering yourself for the cause.


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## Linford (20 Jun 2012)

Matthew_T said:


> This guy did not get things wrong, he made things wrong. I didnt antagonise him (the "see ya" comment may have been uncalled for) and I didnt raise my voice like I used to in the past. I thought that I handled the situation well and didnt cause a confrontation. It was the drivers choice to stop and cause a situation when I simply passed comment, which wasnt even directed at him, it was at his standard of driving.
> 
> If this country is going to persist that people can operate a vehicle which can kill hundreds of lives out of a few driving lessons and a document which says that you are 'Safe to drive' then why can I not pass comment on the poor driving standards of some? I had every right to be displeased with the driving.
> 
> What if I had been moving from the left of the junction to the right to turn right? He would have gone straight into the side of me and knocked me off. I could go around all day saying if this, and if that but what if next time this and other motorists arent as lucky as to have noone turning right?


 
He reacted badly, but you deliberately wound him up. The confrontation was instigated and perpetuated by your actions. He was wrongto cut the corner, but he didn't risk anyones life or even inconvenience anyone. Crossing a broken line in the road is not a criminal offence.

You may not be so lucky next time, but hey, we were all young, cocky and blase about the consequences of our actions at one stage. Wear a gumshield next time


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## Andrew_P (20 Jun 2012)

Luckily someone like him rarely takes it further, he was getting his rocks off on bullying a young person, 100% sure he wouldn't have done it if the rider was mature and looked like he might be able to handle himself.


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## Jimmy Doug (20 Jun 2012)

Matthew_T said:


> There are people on here whom give reasonable and adult replies but there are quite a few who thing bullying is the way forward and in that case are no better than the driver in the incident here.


 
Who is bullying you Mathew? The only bully I can see is the one who chased you in his car and threatened to ram your bike up your nose. Every single person who's written on this thread has your best interests at heart. We don't want to see you hurt, that's all - irrespective of the position that we take (for or against your comments). Personally, I think you should learn to keep your comments to yourself - but that's not bullying. The vast majority of people here hold the same opinion as me, and they're not bullies either. Listen to the advice you're getting from these very experienced cyclists and you may avoid a very nasty incident in the future.


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## snapper_37 (20 Jun 2012)

I use this junction every day and 9/10, someone cuts the corner and I don't blink an eye - luckily I turn left. Even google maps managed to catch someone. 

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Wolverhampton WV4 6EH&hl=en&ll=52.574634,-2.114042&spn=0.000822,0.002401&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=6.491479,19.665527&oq=wv4 6eh&hnear=Wolverhampton WV4 6EH, United Kingdom&t=m&z=19&layer=c&cbll=52.574816,-2.113995&panoid=Tvmoz7-2MtSi6UCbPowDDQ&cbp=12,13.17,,0,0

Last night though, WVM cut it that much he came a little too close for comfort, I couldn't help but loudly mutter 'farkwit'. Since he was on the phone, there was no chance of him hearing me and so he just carried on his merry little way without a care that _one day _a cyclist might be turning right.

In Matt_T's case, yes the driving was crap, yes the driver was a bully and waaaayyy over the top with the reaction. However, as others have said, it is best to keep your gob shut, especially (and this is my opinion of the vid) as you didn't seem to be in any danger.


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## dodgy (20 Jun 2012)

dawesome said:


> We must never comment on poor driving, we must cower and shrink and defer at all times. If someone takes a stupid risk that puts people in danger NEVER do anything and if that driver goes on to kill someone your conscience will be unblemished.


 
All well and good, but I understand Matthew is almost a child, certainly a child's build. Leave the challenging to adults who at least can defend themselves and have a lifetime of experience and social skills to draw on.


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## gambatte (20 Jun 2012)

I was over in North Wales a couple of weeks ago, you notice a few things about the language.
ambulance =ambiwlans
Taxi = Tacsi
Burger = byrger
When I saw the vid, my first thoughts were "OMFG - they don't all talk Welsh all the time"
or was that actually Welsh and should be reported : "I'll ram that byke up your fwcking noes"


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## stowie (20 Jun 2012)

The advice to Matthew on considering just how nutty some people in cars are out there is probably justified. I don't admonish drivers unless they are in the process of putting my life in danger. I do report those really antisocial ones that I catch on camera to roadsafe though. This driver seems a bit deranged to pick up on a comment made in passing and then chase down MattT to offer up physical violence. Some issues going on here methinks...

On a related note I wonder why drivers do this. There are loons on cycles as well. I knew of one guy who rode a cycle to facilitate his drug dealing and kept at least a hammer on his person "for protection". He was absolutely someone I wouldn't want to confront over something like this.


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## Boris Bajic (20 Jun 2012)

dawesome said:


> We must never comment on poor driving, we must cower and shrink and defer at all times. If someone takes a stupid risk that puts people in danger NEVER do anything and if that driver goes on to kill someone your conscience will be unblemished.


 
I'm not sure anyone is suggesting we go this far in non-intervention.

It may be a case of picking one's battles and assessing what the benefit (and the cost) of getting involved might be.

There may also be a case for making a judgement about whether it is worth rebuking a driver for a low-speed piece of urban corner-cutting where no other road user was at risk and no-one was harmed.

The great majority of road users are skilled, courteous and attentive. I find that non-driving cyclists (or those who are inexperienced drivers) can sometimes be less tolerant of other road users than those who drive regularly.

There's a lot to be said for just rubbing along with other people and enjoying the ride or drive.


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## benb (20 Jun 2012)

400bhp said:


> By commenting you are [seen as being] being judgmental - not a particularly nice character trait in itself.
> 
> Learning to know when to keep ones mouthshut is something he needs to learn.


 
And can you explain why we shouldn't be judgemental on other's poor driving?


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## benb (20 Jun 2012)

2wd said:


> watch the video again


 
I did. I would submit that if there was another bicycle to Matt's right, the driver may not have been able to see it properly, and the cutting of the corner could have been dangerous. I don't think the driver could have been sure that there was no-one there, but he decided to cut the corner anyway.


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## 400bhp (20 Jun 2012)

benb said:


> And can you explain why we shouldn't be judgemental on other's poor driving?


 
No

It's obvious.


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## Linford (20 Jun 2012)

benb said:


> I did. I would submit that if there was another bicycle to Matt's right, the driver may not have been able to see it properly, and the cutting of the corner could have been dangerous. I don't think the driver could have been sure that there was no-one there, but he decided to cut the corner anyway.


 
You are making the assumption that the driver did not have a clear line of sight. From the video, it appears to me that he did.


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## gambatte (20 Jun 2012)

Maybe we all ought to be more judgemental of others driving.
"Oi, you're doing 46 in a 40"?
"Excuse me, do you know you've got a smudge on your windscreen?"


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## benb (20 Jun 2012)

Linford said:


> You are making the assumption that the driver did not have a clearline of sight. Fron the video, it appears to me that he did.


 
Neither of us know for sure, I am only giving my opinion on what I can see, and my experience (bearing in mind many divers seem quite incapable of seeing us at the best of times!)

I'm not saying he definitely couldn't tell there was no-one there, but I think he probably couldn't be 100% sure. But I might be wrong.


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## 2wd (20 Jun 2012)

Panter said:


> I obviously don't know the man but I disagree .


 
Remember Panter

These are opinions not facts and I was expressing an opinion,like yourself and contributing to the discussion


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## LosingFocus (20 Jun 2012)

benb said:


> I did. I would submit that if there was another bicycle to Matt's right, the driver may not have been able to see it properly, and the cutting of the corner could have been dangerous. I don't think the driver could have been sure that there was no-one there, but he decided to cut the corner anyway.


 
Indeed.
The driver cut the corner to get down the road before the silver Ford Galaxy coming the other way got there, so there was no chance in hell of him looking down the road he was turning in to as he was concentrating on beating the on-coming Ford. Had a car, bike or cycle been approaching that junction with a view to turn right they would have "met" him.


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## Hip Priest (20 Jun 2012)

I had to take a bloke to task this morning. His tyre pressures were sub-optimal and he'd put fairy liquid in his screen resevoir instead of the manufacturers recommended solution.


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## LCpl Boiled Egg (20 Jun 2012)

It will be a sad day when I can't talk to myself whilst cycling for fear of upsetting people. I comment on things I see on my commute all the time and Matthew should be able to as well without fear of being assaulted. His comment was more to himself than the driver, who I'm surprised even heard it. It would be different if he was talking to the drivers directly, but in this case it was nothing of the sort.


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## Linford (20 Jun 2012)

LosingFocus said:


> Indeed.
> The driver cut the corner to get down the road before the silver Ford Galaxy coming the other way got there, so there was no chance in hell of him looking down the road he was turning in to as he was concentrating on beating the on-coming Ford. Had a car, bike or cycle been approaching that junction with a view to turn right they would have "met" him.


 
It is possible to look at the traffic coming from two different directions, and make a judgement call on that. He was no spring chicken, and would have used his experience to judge whether he could make the gap without causing significant risk to others.

The risk is that you are transposiing the limitations in your judgmental and riding skills into his situation. You may have considered it too dangerous as you couldn't process the info and act on it, but there is nothing to say that others couldn't.

The fact that the only thing which stopped him was the sarcasm from the OP is an indicator that he had a bit of spare capacity in his ability to act on the info as it presented..........

I think the term I'm looking for is 'experience'


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## Andrew_P (20 Jun 2012)

I would love a honest answer to this question aimed directly at Matthew. 

Did you feel the need to comment on driving and or get upset so much *BEFORE* you started reading Cycle forums or watching YT commuting videos?


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## LosingFocus (20 Jun 2012)

Linford said:


> It is possible to look at the traffic coming from two different directions, and make a judgement call on that. He was no spring chicken, and would have used his experience to judge whether he could make the gap without causing significant risk to others.
> 
> 
> The risk is that you are transposiing the limitations in your judgmental and riding skills into his situation. You may have considered it too dangerous as you couldn't process the info and act on it, but there is nothet into say that others couldn't.
> ...


 
I really cant add any more of a reply to this than:


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## gambatte (20 Jun 2012)

Before I started reading things on here and watching YT vids, I used to ride in the gutter and the door zone.....


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## Linford (20 Jun 2012)

LosingFocus said:


> I really cant add any more of a reply to this than:


 
I'm glad you accept yours. The roads are undoubtedly safer for that


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## Dan B (20 Jun 2012)

Linford said:


> It is possible to look at the traffic coming from two different directions, and make a judgement call on that. He was no spring chicken, and would have used his experience to judge whether he could make the gap without causing significant risk to others.


How much experience and judgement is needed to believe that pursuing Matthew down the road, overtaking inconsiderately and making threats of violence is appropriate behaviour? Approaching the age of 40 I worry that I may not have many years left before I have to kill myself, if that is the otherwise inevitable outcome


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## Peowpeowpeowlasers (20 Jun 2012)

MontyVeda said:


> is cutting over the dashed white lines of a junction really poor driving?


 
See the solid white line at the edge of the give way markings? If you crossed that on a driving test, you'd fail instantly.


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## Linford (20 Jun 2012)

Peowpeowpeowlasers said:


> See the solid white line at the edge of the give way markings? If you crossed that on a driving test, you'd fail instantly.


 
It isn't against the law to do it though. HGV's cut corners all the time 

We can split hairs over this, but ultimately, the OP was baiting the bloke, and like a cock, the bloke rose to it. 6 of one, half a dozen of another IMO


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## Peowpeowpeowlasers (20 Jun 2012)

A bored traffic officer might well pull someone over for cutting the corner like that. Those lines exist for a reason, in fact their inclusion is mandated by the Traffic Signs Manual.

I don't do victim blaming, thugs and bullies need to be found and removed from civil society. I'd have probably said nothing too but I'm not going to criticise Matthew for arguing with a shoot, uninsured driver and being threatened with physical violence. I hope the police take his complaint very seriously.


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## Dan B (20 Jun 2012)

Linford said:


> It isn't against the law to do it though. HGV's cut corners all the time


And they go the wrong way around mini-roundabouts, and they turn left from the middle lane. That isn't because they can, that's because they have to.



Linford said:


> I
> We can split hairs over this, but ultimately, the OP was baiting the bloke, and like a cock, the bloke rose to it. 6 of one, half a dozen of another IMO


Er yeah, whatever you say. I'd have put the proportion nearer 2/10 or 1/11 but obviously I did not realise that reading out 7 letters and numbers was such a common way of saying "shut your mouth or I'm going to knock you out in a minute"


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## benb (20 Jun 2012)

Linford said:


> It isn't against the law to do it though. HGV's cut corners all the time
> 
> We can split hairs over this, but ultimately, the OP was baiting the bloke, and like a cock, the bloke rose to it. 6 of one, half a dozen of another IMO


 
What rubbish. The driver's response was grossly disproportionate. More like 1 of one, 11 of another.


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## Linford (20 Jun 2012)

benb said:


> What rubbish. The driver's response was grossly disproportionate. More like 1 of one, 11 of another.


 
and from the responses here from more experienced people, learning to bite your tongue is sometimes the best thing you can do. I'm not defending the driver for being a cock, but then many people can and do this sort of thing and no harm comes to others.

I'm sure that the OP would not have mouthed off to a couple of blokes walking the other way on foot through a park if he saw something he didn't like.

I would suggest that sometimes, the right thing to do isn't always the wisest, and an 8 stone teenager isn't perhaps best equipped to dish it out.


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## Dan B (20 Jun 2012)

Linford said:


> I would suggest that sometimes, the right thing to do isn't always the wisest, and an 8 stone teenager isn't perhaps best equipped to dish it out.



That still isn't "6 of one, half a dozen of another" though. Not unless you're completely unacquainted with basic numeracy


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## Glow worm (20 Jun 2012)

gambatte said:


> I was over in North Wales a couple of weeks ago, you notice a few things about the language.
> ambulance =ambiwlans
> Taxi = Tacsi
> Burger = byrger
> ...


 
And 'Way Out' signs are always seemingly only intended for a bloke called 'Allan' - what about the rest of us?!
That bit of coastal N. Wales is v. Anglicised due to proximity to the English north west. Our Angry Friend on the vid sounded English. Once you get inland or along to Bangor/ Caernarfon & beyond you'll mainly hear Welsh spoken. Great country and wonderful language.


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## Linford (20 Jun 2012)

Dan B said:


> That still isn't "6 of one, half a dozen of another" though. Not unless you're completely unacquainted with basic numeracy


 
I'm not in any way condoning the threats the driver made, but if the OP had not mouthed off, it would have remained a non event. His actions escalated it and neither party had the good sense to button it. six of one.......


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## glasgowcyclist (20 Jun 2012)

Hi Matthew,

use this experience to learn that sometimes even non-threatening behaviour can yield unexpected results.
Next time you feel like expressing your view vocally, think back to this video and consider whether there might be a better course of action.

GC


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## Dan B (20 Jun 2012)

Linford said:


> I'm not in any way condoning the threats the driver made


Clearly this is not true, because you are claimning that the utterances the cyclist said - "you cut the corner", "drive properly" and reading out the numberplate - are equally as bad. Do you really believe that? Are you saying you'd have been equally happy to take the place of either participant in the exchange? If so, really, all I can say to you is LB52 OUY and I mean that in the _strongest_ possible terms


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## Linford (20 Jun 2012)

Dan B said:


> Clearly this is not true, because you are claimning that the utterances the cyclist said - "you cut the corner", "drive properly" and reading out the numberplate - are equally as bad. Do you really believe that? Are you saying you'd have been equally happy to take the place of either participant in the exchange? If so, really, all I can say to you is LB52 OUY and I mean that in the _strongest_ possible terms


 
He obviously took the OP reading out his numberplate as an open threat that he would be reporting it to the police - which in all honesty would not have resulted in a conviction.

Two wrongs don't make a right in this situation, and I feel that the way he antagonised the driver was inviting trouble.

If you do this sort of thing yourself, you had better always carry a camera with you as you will need corroboration that the other party threw the first punch.


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## OilyMechanic (20 Jun 2012)

You hypocritical arseholewipe


View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvzQR5XGq00


59 seconds in.


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## cloggsy (20 Jun 2012)

Glow worm said:


> Ram the bike right up your *nose*? That's a refreshing change I suppose!


He didn't say 'ram' he said 'wrap...' How do you wrap a bike up someone's nose?

I've seen the incident on YouTube - I hope he get's his collar felt by the boys in blue!


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## benb (20 Jun 2012)

Linford said:


> I'm not in any way condoning the threats the driver made, but if the OP had not mouthed off, it would have remained a non event. His actions escalated it and neither party had the good sense to button it. six of one.......


 
Well, as an analogy if I hadn't looked at that person a bit funny, they wouldn't have beaten me up. 6 of one, eh.


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## potsy (20 Jun 2012)

OilyMechanic said:


> You hypocritical peanut.
> 
> 
> View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvzQR5XGq00
> ...



Good spot, but was the ar$ehole comment really necessary?


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## gambatte (20 Jun 2012)

in respect of the initial incident
I have to say, that does look like Matt has been hoisted by his own petard....
Doesn't excuse the drivers follow up though.


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## Boris Bajic (20 Jun 2012)

This thread is in danger of striking a discordant note where it might helpfully offer the OP some guidance on how easily quite a nasty situation can develop from a seemingly innocuous one.

There can be a problem with perception if language offering constructive advice to the OP is not couched very carefully.

When Linford said "I'm not in any way condoning the threats the driver made", there is no reason to suppose that is not exactly what he meant. This wording seems to fit perfectly with his other statements.

This statement doesn't preclude the possibility that he also found that the OP's stance or language a contributory factor in the ugliness that followed. That is a separate matter.

Quite a few wise and ancient heads have concluded from the OP's clip that the driving was poor but unremarkable, the behaviour of the driver was quite unacceptable and disgraceful - and the comments of the OP were a contributory factor in the ensuing spat.

Matthew comes across as a decent and sincere character who takes road behaviour very seriously. If only we all did.

He may also be someone who is still picking up the nuances and subtleties that can emerge in dialogue with strangers. There's plenty of helpful guidance contained within this thread. I'm not sure anyone will gain very much by disagreeing ad nauseam about the details of the filmed event.

Matthew, take it easy and keep on enjoying your cycling. Do have a read through the thread at your leisure. I see a lot of thoughtful and good advice in there.

Remember that some of us have been cycling and driving on these and other roads for several decades in a state of relative bliss. We may be utter fools, but there is also the possibility that we've picked up something about how to rub along with other road users.


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## Hip Priest (20 Jun 2012)

OilyMechanic said:


> You hypocritical peanut.
> 
> 
> View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvzQR5XGq00n




Out of order calling him that, but it's fair to say he was guilty of cutting the corner. And if a passing motorist had shouted 'Oi! You cut the corner!' I'd have thought it petty.


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## Boris Bajic (20 Jun 2012)

OilyMechanic said:


> You hypocritical peanut.
> 
> 
> View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvzQR5XGq00
> ...




Not keen on the language here, but this does not look good for the OP.

There's a bit in the Bible about he who is without skins getting stoned in the car first or something.

I think it might apply here.

Keep riding Matthew, and keep enjoying it - but watch what you post.


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## OilyMechanic (20 Jun 2012)

Boris Bajic said:


> There's a bit in the Bible about he who is without skins getting stoned in the car first or something.


 
What the actual fark does that mean?

Oh, I edited the language, better?


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## dawesome (20 Jun 2012)

Yes, because a cyclist cutting the corner is EXACTLY the same as an uninsured driver in a half ton car doing the same, sheesh. Also, there's a startling lack of footage of Matthew swearing, issuing threats and assaulting people. So, not the same at all.


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## Linford (20 Jun 2012)

OilyMechanic said:


> You hypocritical arseholewipe
> 
> 
> View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvzQR5XGq00
> ...




The peanut comment is unneccessary, but what we can recognise is that nobody is perfect. It is part of the human condition to fcuk up from time to time.

The most important thing is that the bloke didn't actually stick the OPs teeth down his throat, and he will live to ride another day. Use the cam to corroborate genuinly dangerous behaviour, and learn to recognise the diffeernce between that and something which is just irritating.

I wonder if having the cam switched on actually acted as a form of risk compensation - in the way people take more chances when wearing a lid.


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## gambatte (20 Jun 2012)

We can see the corner being cut by Matt, from his own perspective thanks to his camera. What we can't deny is the offence is the same and IMO he cut is more than any of the other riders. If there'd been a cyclist coming the other way, it'd have been squeaky bum time.
So yeah, Matt needs to learn a lesson too.
Now if someone had shouted out on that corner, what reaction do we think Matt would have given?


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## OilyMechanic (20 Jun 2012)

dawesome said:


> Yes, because a cyclist cutting the corner is EXACTLY the same as an uninsured driver in a half ton car doing the same, sheesh. Also, there's a startling lack of footage of Matthew swearing, issuing threats and assaulting people. So, not the same at all.


 
Cutting a corner is cutting a corner. Cyclists want the same rights as car drivers, stick to the same rules. Pretty simple huh? A cyclist can cause just as much damage as a car when crashing into someone.

If he didn't get into that situation by being an idiot and moaning at a driver for not driving correctly (when he does the same thing himself) there would be no "assault"


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## Hip Priest (20 Jun 2012)

W


dawesome said:


> Yes, because a cyclist cutting the corner is EXACTLY the same as an uninsured driver in a half ton car doing the same, sheesh. Also, there's a startling lack of footage of Matthew swearing, issuing threats and assaulting people. So, not the same at all.



What if an old lady or a woman with a pushchair had been crossing left to right? She may have looked right, seen the carriageway was clear, only to have an unsighted cyclist collide with her from the left. I think this shouldbe forwarded to the police. Or instead, maybe we could all grow up and stop nitpicking over non-events.


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## OilyMechanic (20 Jun 2012)

gambatte said:


> Now if someone had shouted out on that corner, what reaction do we think Matt would have given?


 
It would of gone something along these lines, in a squeaky voice.

"No I didn't"
"I have it on camera"
"I'm calling the police for verbal assault"
"I'm sooooo going to post this on cyclechat tonight to get internet points"


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## OilyMechanic (20 Jun 2012)

Hip Priest said:


> W
> 
> What if an old lady or a woman with a pushchair had been crossing left to right? She may have looked right, seen the carriageway was clear, only to have an unsighted cyclist collide with her from the left. I think this shouldbe forwarded to the police. Or instead, maybe we could all grow up and stop nitpicking over non-events.


 
If we were to stop nitpicking over non-events, why is this thread even here?


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## Dan B (20 Jun 2012)

Boris Bajic said:


> When Linford said "I'm not in any way condoning the threats the driver made", there is no reason to suppose that is not exactly what he meant. This wording seems to fit perfectly with his other statements.


Except for his continual repetition of the phrase "six of one ..." which if it means anything at all means that Matt was equally to blame. The number "six" and the quantity "half a dozen" are, as I expect you know, equal to each other, and the phrase is therefore generally used when both parties to some interaction are held to be "as bad as each other"

While I'm sure that most or all of us will agree that Matt would have been less likely to escalate the situation had he not e.g. read the car numberplate out, the use of the word "escalate" is itself a honking great clue that the offences and insults occasioned in the first half, wherein Matt impugns the driver's ability to go round corners properly, are not in fact of the same magnitude as those in the second half, where the driver cuts him up and then threatens physical violence against him. 

It is of course possible that Linf is perhaps _not_ aware how large the archaic unit "a dozen" is, and is just using the phrase to mean "there was some degree of blame on both sides", but as that is not what the phrase means, this is not how he comes across. Here I can only echo your own advice that "language [...] should be couched very carefully"


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## Matthew_T (20 Jun 2012)

UPDATE: I have been into the police station today and saw a woman who viewed the footage and went through the statement with me. She was very helpful and understood the situation.
She said that for a conviction, they would be looking to charge the driver with a Public Order offence for swearing and possibly careless driving for overtaking in the face of an oncoming car. She said for a public order, there would have to be witnesses, but you can get them off the footage.

She also said that with the quality of the footage (I showed her the original film which is better quality than the vid) that it is better use than CCTV as it shows what I am looking at. Got a good description of the driver and the dialogue in the situation.

I now have to put the vid on a CD and take it back in to them. She also explained the process with court and said that I would only have to go if the driver had pervious convictions related to this.


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## TheJDog (20 Jun 2012)

This bicycle corner cutting is far worse because he is completely unsighted what with that stone wall and stuff.

Ride Properly!

If you moan at enough drivers, the odds are that you will get a reaction out of some. And some drivers are mental cases. And some drivers will actually get physical, rather than poking your nose. I'd learn my lesson here, keep the video camera on, and leave the education of our motoring brethren to plod.


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## gambatte (20 Jun 2012)

"Pervious".... Freudian slip Matt?


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## dawesome (20 Jun 2012)

Matthew_T said:


> UPDATE: I have been into the police station today and saw a woman who viewed the footage and went through the statement with me. She was very helpful and understood the situation.
> She said that for a conviction, they would be looking to charge the driver with a Public Order offence for swearing and possibly careless driving for overtaking in the face of an oncoming car. She said for a public order, there would have to be witnesses, but you can get them off the footage.
> 
> She also said that with the quality of the footage (I showed her the original film which is better quality than the vid) that it is better use than CCTV as it shows what I am looking at. Got a good description of the driver and the dialogue in the situation.
> ...


 

Good work fella.


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## Linford (20 Jun 2012)

Dan B said:


> Except for his continual repetition of the phrase "six of one ..." which if it means anything at all means that Matt was equally to blame. The number "six" and the quantity "half a dozen" are, as I expect you know, equal to each other, and the phrase is therefore generally used when both parties to some interaction are held to be "as bad as each other"
> 
> While I'm sure that most or all of us will agree that Matt would have been less likely to escalate the situation had he not e.g. read the car numberplate out, the use of the word "escalate" is itself a honking great clue that the offences and insults occasioned in the first half, wherein Matt impugns the driver's ability to go round corners properly, are not in fact of the same magnitude as those in the second half, where the driver cuts him up and then threatens physical violence against him.
> 
> It is of course possible that Linf is perhaps _not_ aware how large the archaic unit "a dozen" is, and is just using the phrase to mean "there was some degree of blame on both sides", but as that is not what the phrase means, this is not how he comes across. Here I can only echo your own advice that "language [...] should be couched very carefully"


 
Jeez, I thought I was bad


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## Dan B (20 Jun 2012)

Hip Priest said:


> Out of order calling him that, but it's fair to say he was guilty of cutting the corner. And if a passing motorist had shouted 'Oi! You cut the corner!' I'd have thought it petty.


Agreed on all counts. But I bet you woudn't have pursued him and threatened to wrap(sic) his car up his nose


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## benb (20 Jun 2012)

TheJDog said:


> ... and leave the education of our motoring brethren to plod.


 
Yes, that's going very well so far.


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## Dan B (20 Jun 2012)

Linford said:


> Jeez, I thought I was bad


That's a slightly harsh assessment though it does contain a grain of truth. Do you see my point about "equal" and how this is unhelpful?


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## smutchin (20 Jun 2012)

Peowpeowpeowlasers said:


> See the solid white line at the edge of the give way markings? If you crossed that on a driving test, you'd fail instantly.


 
My best friend at school did indeed fail his driving test for exactly that reason.

There's no excuse for cutting corners, and no need for it, just like there's no excuse for doing 35 in a 30 limit. It doesn't matter if [you think] the road is clear. You just don't do it. End of. It's one of my pet hates as a cyclist, having had to take evasive action to avoid being taken out by corner-cutting motorists more times than I care to remember. I expect they all thought the road was clear, but they were either making rash assumptions or just not looking properly. Or both.

Of course, you don't do it on a bike either. The potential consequences for other road users are far less serious but that doesn't make it OK.

d.


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## jonny jeez (20 Jun 2012)

Dont have time to read all the posts. I agree the driver appears to slurr his speech and acts irrationally. Suggests he was under the influence

All the comments about Matt antagionising are correct...after all whats the point of reading the number plate as you would never actually take time to report such an initally poor bit of driving, other than to antagonise

Matts initial description of the situation left me thinking "jeez Matt, let it go" but....

The vid really angered me especially his intention on telling you not to speak to him "like that" (like what?... all you said was..."cut the corner a bit", then read his plate and said "see ya?")...whilst speaking to you with zero respect, swearing and insulting in every sentance.

I wanted to literally open this little feck up, I was that angry.

However...bottom line...Matt please dont try to take on the mantel of road warrior, As I have said before, unless you are physically confident and able to stop a situation, DONT START ONE.

And I know he started the problem, but it didn't warrant escalation by you.

I know this is tough advice as this fecks reactions were so disproportionate that he deserves to be taught the error of his ways.

But today, this is not your job.

Today, your job is to enjoy riding.


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## benb (20 Jun 2012)

In my view, the fact that Matt also cut a corner in that other video is only partially relevant, unless people are suggesting that doing something wrong precludes you from ever commenting on it in others. 

If there had been someone at that corner who had muttered "cycle properly" to Matt, and Matt had then verbally abused them, poked them in the nose and threatened them with violence, then the hypocrisy charge would have merit.


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## TheJDog (20 Jun 2012)

benb said:


> In my view, the fact that Matt also cut a corner in that other video is only partially relevant, unless people are suggesting that doing something wrong precludes you from ever commenting on it in others.


 
Not just commenting, but making a note of their number plate. In my view, your view is quite wrong, and he is a hypocrite (not that we all aren't).



benb said:


> If there had been someone at that corner who had muttered "cycle properly" to Matt, and Matt had then verbally abused them, poked them in the nose and threatened them with violence, then the hypocrisy charge would have merit.


 
No, that would just make him a nutcase, too.


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## smutchin (20 Jun 2012)

Getting comments aimed at you from other road users is an everyday occurrence. I've been on the receiving end of far more offensive remarks as a cyclist than the poor downtrodden motorist suffered at Matt's hands but I've never felt the need to turn my vehicle round and chase down a commenter, and threaten to wrap their vehicle up their nose. Utterly disgraceful, if slightly nonsensical, behaviour by that motorist. I hope he gets the book thrown at him.

Conversely, I've learned to avoid making comments about other road users, even if they do something that risks my wellbeing, simply because, as Jonny Jeez says, it's not my job. If I used a helmet cam, I might post the vids on YouTube and/or to the police, but I would rather avoid direct confrontations.

But "it's not my job" might be one of the reasons I'm not tempted to use a helmet cam. As someone upthread hinted, there may be a good reason why people who wear helmet cams seem to be involved in more confrontations than the rest of us.

d.


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## Matthew_T (20 Jun 2012)

benb said:


> In my view, the fact that Matt also cut a corner in that other video is only partially relevant, unless people are suggesting that doing something wrong precludes you from ever commenting on it in others.
> 
> If there had been someone at that corner who had muttered "cycle properly" to Matt, and Matt had then verbally abused them, poked them in the nose and threatened them with violence, then the hypocrisy charge would have merit.


Exactly. I often cut corners but it is usually in the evening or when I am certain that noone is about. However, in the video posted, if someone had been at the junction and said anything. My response would have probably been either "Sorry" or I would have ignored them. This driver clearly did not see the easy way out and just wanted a confrontation.


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## Matthew_T (20 Jun 2012)

TheJDog said:


> Not just commenting, but making a note of their number plate. In my view, your view is quite wrong, and he is a hypocrite (not that we all aren't).


I am not a hypocrite. If I make a mistake that affects someone else, I will apologise. End of.


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## benb (20 Jun 2012)

TheJDog said:


> Not just commenting, but making a note of their number plate. In my view, your view is quite wrong, and he is a hypocrite (not that we all aren't).
> 
> No, that would just make him a nutcase, too.


 
In my view he only noted their number plate _after_ the driver had started to have a go at him.


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## Matthew_T (20 Jun 2012)

benb said:


> In my view he only noted their number plate _after_ the driver had started to have a go at him.


I took the reg plate after he had started to move away. The incident was over by my reckoning.


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## ianrauk (20 Jun 2012)

The thing is with this web cam stuff. If you are going to admonish car drivers for indiscretions. Then you really have to be whiter then white yourself when it comes to your own road craft. Otherwise you will get picked and pulled apart from those on here and on You Tube.


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## Matthew_T (20 Jun 2012)

ianrauk said:


> The thing is with this web cam stuff. If you are going to admonish car drivers for indiscretions. Then you really have to be whiter then white yourself when it comes to your own road craft. Otherwise you will get picked and pulled apart from those on here and on You Tube.


I am not taking much regard anymore from people who have negative views on here and Youtube. I dont mind constructive criticism, but somethings are borderline abuse.


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## ianrauk (20 Jun 2012)

Matthew_T said:


> I am not taking much regard anymore from people who have negative views on here and Youtube. I dont mind constructive criticism, but somethings are borderline abuse.


 

Unfortunately It comes with territory Matt.


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## lejogger (20 Jun 2012)

I fear that if every driver I shrugged, shook my head, or muttered at responded in this manner then I'd be doing more brawling than cycling most weeks.

I think Matthew has been a little unlucky here in that not only did the driver both see and hear him, but he was also of the character (drink fuelled or not) to take immediate offence and create a scene. I can only think the driver probably assumed that Matthew was being more offensive in what he said than he actually was, was under the influence, or is in need of some psychiatric examination.

I can't quite get into the head of the driver slamming his brakes on to remonstrate for such a minor incident. I'm prone to the odd red mist myself but I would have to be particularly het up to actually bring myself to stop the car and have an argument through the window, let alone actually going out of my way to hunt down the other party for round 2 when not even one reference was made to either party's mother. So in that case I'm guessing it's either down to alcohol, mental health, or both. I don't agree with Matthew's 'see ya' comment but given the temper of the motorist I don't think that had any bearing on how the situation escalated.

The actual corner cut itself is pretty much irrelevant. Yes it's bad driving. It's certainly not a bad incident though. I'd have probably shaken my head too in the same way I'd shake my head at an RLJ or a speeding motorist, or any other piece of bad driving or cycling, and then been surprised to get the reaction it did.

Did Matthew have to get involved? Once the brakes were on there was no going back. I don't think he could have dealt with the situation any differently to have made the resolution any better once contact was established, so credit for pedalling away with his teeth intact. I'd probably argue that once Matthew didn't stand up for himself when the guy was in his face, that's when he really went to town with the insults because he knew he was getting away with it. Most of us who are a little more mature and have a little more presence would have told him where to go once he was out of his car because being in a couple of tons of metal was the only thing that really made him dangerous.

I can't help but think that if this was an incident with another camera commuter there would be a little more sympathy. Yes Matthew has appeared to attract a disproportionate number of incidents in the past but I believe many of us could have found ourselves in this same situation given this same incident purely due to the character of the motorist.

I'd echo everyone else on here who has expressed concern for Matthew in his riding incidents to date, but I don't have any criticism for him on this occassion.


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## Linford (20 Jun 2012)

Matthew_T said:


> I am not taking much regard anymore from people who have negative views on here and Youtube. I dont mind constructive criticism, but somethings are borderline abuse.


 
Would you have been so quick to engage with him if the cam wasn't rolling ?

I'd like to think you consider I am offering sound advice and some which might help you avoid losing your teeth or worse over something as trivial as this. If you want to argue the toss with someone who is sat in a tonne and a half of metal, you need to make sure you are in similar, bigger or a lot quicker.


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## Dan B (20 Jun 2012)

lejogger said:


> I can't help but think that if this was an incident with another camera commuter there would be a little more sympathy. Yes Matthew has appeared to attract a disproportionate number of incidents in the past but I believe many of us could have found ourselves in this same situation given this same incident purely due to the character of the motorist.


 You could compare 
http://cyclechat.net/threads/most-aggressive-bizarre-incident-ive-experienced.104088/


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## MontyVeda (20 Jun 2012)

OilyMechanic said:


> ...
> 
> 
> View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvzQR5XGq00
> ...




well up until yesterday I'd have said this was acceptable, he can see the road is clear ahead and nobody died as a result of cutting the corner... but seeing as I've been shot down in flames for suggesting it's acceptible, I think ... I don't know what to think...

maybe those who think a two dimensional dashed white line on the tarmac is like a red light or traffic barrier at a level crossing should tell me what to think???


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## Dan B (20 Jun 2012)

MontyVeda said:


> maybe those who think a two dimensional dashed white line on the tarmac is like a red light or traffic barrier at a level crossing should tell me what to think???


If that comment was addressed at me, I'd start by telling you to read what was actually written and not just what you wished was written


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## TheJDog (20 Jun 2012)

Matthew_T said:


> I took the reg plate after he had started to move away. The incident was over by my reckoning.


 
Why?, is the question you have to ask yourself. He was driving away, no one was reporting anything to anyone at that stage. The incident was over. Why read out his numberplate in a voice much louder than the voice he seemed to easily hear a second ago when you told him he was putting people in danger? (if someone had told me that I was putting people in danger after cutting a corner like that I _would_ have said something about their mother).


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## MontyVeda (20 Jun 2012)

Dan B said:


> If that comment was addressed at me, I'd start by telling you to read what was actually written and not just what you wished was written


it's directed at several people actually... you are not alone


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## Dan B (20 Jun 2012)

[QUOTE 1897240, member: 45"]This is about age. An older bloke was admonished in a pretty condescending manner by what he saw as a young boy. You being cheeky to him. I can understand him getting wound up by the way you spoke to him, regardless of his driving. Add to that a bit of hurt pride and this just escalated.[/quote]
I missed this the first time, but you're absolutely right: the motorist has some kind of unrestrained "I am older so must be better" complex and it all hangs off that. Just goes to show that age and maturity are not the same thing.

Funny that we're all advising the young and impetuous party that he should have let things lie, when in this case it's the older party who really really needs this advice to avoid making a complete prick of himself


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## dawesome (20 Jun 2012)

MontyVeda said:


> it's directed at several people actually... you are not alone


 
Why don't you address the people directly or quote the words you're referring to, otherwise it looks like you're arguing with yourself?


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## dawesome (20 Jun 2012)

Linford said:


> 6 of one, half a dozen of another IMO


 
If you think reading out a number plate aloud is the same as assault and threatening behaviour then you're a numpty. There is no way any sensible person would equate the two.


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## smutchin (20 Jun 2012)

MontyVeda said:


> maybe those who think a two dimensional dashed white line on the tarmac is like a red light or traffic barrier at a level crossing should tell me what to think???


 
If you've passed your driving test, you should know what to think. The rules are clear and unambiguous.

Far too many motorists these days drive as if the white lines are just there to make the road look pretty.

d.


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## Dan B (20 Jun 2012)

dawesome said:


> If you think reading out a number plate aloud is the same as assault and threatening behaviour then you're a numpty. There is no way any sensible person would equate the two.


We've done this: Linf doesn't know how many in a dozen


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## crazy580 (20 Jun 2012)

Highway code rule #147: "do not allow yourself to become agitated or involved if someone is behaving badly on the road. This will only make the situation worse. Pull over, calm down and, when you feel relaxed, continue your journey"


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## TheJDog (20 Jun 2012)

smutchin said:


> If you've passed your driving test, you should know what to think. The rules are clear and unambiguous.
> 
> Far too many motorists these days drive as if the white lines are just there to make the road look pretty.
> 
> d.


 
The highway code isn't all that unambiguous on this front, it says "do not cut the corner", not "you MUST NOT".

You are allowed to cross almost all white lines in some circumstances.

But this is just getting into nit-picking.


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## Peowpeowpeowlasers (20 Jun 2012)

MontyVeda said:


> well up until yesterday I'd have said this was acceptable, he can see the road is clear ahead and nobody died as a result of cutting the corner... but seeing as I've been shot down in flames for suggesting it's acceptible, I think ... I don't know what to think...
> 
> maybe those who think a two dimensional dashed white line on the tarmac is like a red light or traffic barrier at a level crossing should tell me what to think???


 
The first right turn is unacceptable and dangerous to all. I'd never ride like that, it's a recipe for injury and death.

The second right turn is fine, I'd have probably done the same in a large group. On my own I'd have slowed and taken it at a tighter angle. You can see the road layout has been modified to make it easier for vehicles coming the other way to turn onto the main road.


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## lejogger (20 Jun 2012)

Dan B said:


> We've done this: Linf doesn't know how many in a dozen


Is it a baker's dozen 

I'd actually just like to address the age issue... It's nothing to do with that. There are more than enough teeneagers capable of 'bullying' or frightening the majority of people of a more senior age. The motorist became the alpha male in the situation due to his arrogance and aggression. These traits do not always increase with age, and in fact are probably more prevalent in the younger generation.


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## Linford (20 Jun 2012)

Dan B said:


> We've done this: Linf doesn't know how many in a dozen


 
No, you did this, but you struggle with the figurative use of a term. I'm surprised your first name isn't Lawrence


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## dawesome (20 Jun 2012)

I use a corner like that, it's Rosary Road where it meets Thorpe Road in Norwich, cars travelling west and massively cut the corner at 30mph, right outside two shops and the cemetery entrance where there are cars parked and a blind corner. They're five or six feet over the line, accelerating towards what they can't see.


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## hennbell (20 Jun 2012)

This is a simple case of running into a bully.
The car clearly cut the corner the cyclist looked at the motorist the wrong way. The motorist saw the cyclist was a young gentleman and decided to make an issue of it. From this point on it If the cyclist was a bit bigger and appeared ready and willing to fight, the motorist would have stayed in the car.

And the notion that an adult was being sassed by a cheeky child is just another way of excusing the poor behavior of the adult.

Feel free to report the motorist, likely nothing will happen.

Next time do not stop unless you are ready to defend yourself.


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## smutchin (20 Jun 2012)

TheJDog said:


> The highway code ... says "do not cut the corner"



Yup, seems pretty unambiguous to me. 



> You are allowed to cross almost all white lines in some circumstances.



None of those circumstances apply to the motorist in Matt's video (or indeed to Matt himself in the other video).

It's not people crossing white lines "in some circumstances" that bothers me, it's crossing them routinely as if they don't mean anything or aren't even there, usually because they're too impatient to wait a second or two. No excuse for it, it's just selfishness. Those white lines are there for a reason other than decoration.



> But this is just getting into nit-picking.



Quite. 

d.


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## Linford (20 Jun 2012)

hennbell said:


> This is a simple case of running into a bully.
> The car clearly cut the corner the cyclist looked at the motorist the wrong way. The motorist saw the cyclist was a young gentleman and decided to make an issue of it. From this point on it If the cyclist was a bit bigger and appeared ready and willing to fight, the motorist would have stayed in the car.
> 
> And the notion that an adult was being sassed by a cheeky child is just another way of excusing the poor behavior of the adult.
> ...


 

Yup, good to see you are learning about life. He didn't look at the driver the wrong way though, he started with sarcasm, and then threatened him with the law. That is what provoked the more extreme response. Dress it whichever way you want. pick on someone bigger and uglier than you are and then deal with the consequences.


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## 4F (20 Jun 2012)




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## redcard (20 Jun 2012)

Matt, maybe you just need to accept you might have one of those faces people just want to slap, and you should try to do everything possible to avoid getting it slapped.

Live your life so no one ever wants to slap you. That'll show the bastards.


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## markharry66 (20 Jun 2012)

I dont think you really did anything wrong, put it down to experience and move on just encountered a complete twat so ott


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## Miquel In De Rain (20 Jun 2012)

So when that driver nearly wiped me out at Stratford the other week,what should I have done?

Just said thankyou and walked off?

Yes,it's on utube.


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## PK99 (20 Jun 2012)

Matthew_T said:


> Why should I feel scared of the consequences of just commenting on the driving of others?
> 
> 
> This driver is not going to look at cyclists any differently as a result of this incident.


 
1. because some people will not take kindly to "some gobby kid" insulting or challenging them. Sooner or later you will do it to a thug and learn the hard way. Modify your behaviour now.

2. How do you know he is not?

you have said elsewhere that you are autistic - I take it you are at the Aspergers end of the autistic spectrum and find adopting/interpreting appropriate interpersonal behaviours difficult? I think you would be wise to listen to the wise advice given by many on here and to not dismiss critical comments as simple bullying.


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## TwickenhamCyclist (20 Jun 2012)

Miquel In De Rain said:


> So when that driver nearly wiped me out at Stratford the other week,what should I have done?
> 
> Just said thankyou and walked off?
> 
> Yes,it's on utube.


link?


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## benb (20 Jun 2012)

Speaking of cutting corners, had this the other day.


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## dawesome (20 Jun 2012)

benb said:


> Speaking of cutting corners, had this the other day.





Seriously dodgy.


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## mr_hippo (20 Jun 2012)

potsy said:


> Good spot, but was the ar$ehole comment really necessary?


That comment was wrong - he forgot to add ''complete and utter`
Today (21st here) is the longest day of the year and how appropriate to have the longest load of drivel on here!
If I am turning lwft, I unclip my left foot, slow down, roll up to the junction - checking all the time - if the road is clear move swiftly away as l am sure a lot of you do so why is cariad bach (OP) spending such a long time at a traffic free junction? Waiting for a youtube moment?
Some posters on this thread seem to have short & selective memories! Some ''people on bicycles' on here - i am not calling them 'cyclists' because they are not - post threads on this forum and sometimes videos where they either 'chase down' (their words) or catch up with motorists in traffic and start a confrontation. If you think the motorist's actions are wrong, why don't you think yours are?


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## Miquel In De Rain (20 Jun 2012)

TwickenhamCyclist said:


> link?


 

View: http://youtu.be/E9_KGuobhAs


But this isn't the only one just one of the latest ones.Some are shocking,appalling driving.

I don't get why I was asked for a link,I guess im almost being accused of making it up.


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## OilyMechanic (20 Jun 2012)

benb said:


> Speaking of cutting corners, had this the other day.




Good sir, please tell me your secret. 

Being on the receiving end of worse driving that Matthew T's, how did you refrain from being a cock, getting into an altercation with the driver and then making them chase you down? Are you some sort of wizard Benb?


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## benb (20 Jun 2012)

OilyMechanic said:


> Good sir, please tell me your secret.
> 
> Being on the receiving end of worse driving that Matthew T's, how did you refrain from being a cock, getting into an altercation with the driver and then making them chase you down? Are you some sort of wizard Benb?


 
I don't think Matt was a cock, and IMO you're out of order for saying that. He in no way "made" the driver chase him.

I did in fact give the driver a look and shake my head, so I could easily have found myself in a similar situation, had the driver been the type quick to anger.


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## Miquel In De Rain (20 Jun 2012)

OilyMechanic said:


> Good sir, please tell me your secret.
> 
> Being on the receiving end of worse driving that Matthew T's, how did you refrain from being a cock, getting into an altercation with the driver and then making them chase you down? Are you some sort of wizard Benb?


 
That could be a problem if he was positioned to do a right turn.(I mean the BenB video,that looked worse)


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## beastie (20 Jun 2012)

This will soon be longer than the "Lance USADA" thread.


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## stowie (20 Jun 2012)

OilyMechanic said:


> Good sir, please tell me your secret.
> 
> Being on the receiving end of worse driving that Matthew T's, how did you refrain from being a cock, getting into an altercation with the driver and then making them chase you down? Are you some sort of wizard Benb?


 
I think that MattT probably has enough advice now. I rarely confront motorists these days, and only if they are in the process of causing me physical danger (when a shout normally suffices). But I understand the frustration with poor driving though - one does get to a zen like acceptance of anything but the worst. Stuff like cutting corners isn't the end of the world - unless someone is coming up to turn right when it might be the end of the world for someone. I get this more in a car than on my cycle so I think it is more laziness and poor habits than anything else - which is what a lot of poor driving amounts to.

But I have to say that MattT hardly *made *the driver in this instance stop the car to exchange verbals, then turn the car around and chase him down to block his path and then give it the "Goodfellas spiel". In my mind the cutting the corner is much less worrying that the driver's reaction afterwards. I just don't get this kind of behaviour. A small incident warrants this as opposed to the driver muttering under his breath and continuing with his life? I do kind of worry for people who need to do this, especially a man who looks fairly mature offering up a fight to a kid. One would hope life experience would have enabled some maturity in this situation, but clearly not.

What does the driver get out of this in the end? He told off a teenager and in the process has managed to get himself filmed and this sent to the police. If what is being said about insurance on this car is true, the driver may have managed to get the attention of the police whilst not lawfully driving, which isn't the cleverest thing to do in the world if they don't want a big fine and points or a ban. Even with insurance and the correct documents who needs the hassle of police visits and deliberations on prosecution simply because someone said something they didn't like? And as I mentioned previously the driver should consider that they don't know who they are dealing with on the cycle - there are nutters on cycles as well as in cars. All for a comment that the driver didn't like? Seems crazy to me and it does worry me slightly that people who are this highly strung are driving around.


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## Crankarm (21 Jun 2012)

Matthew_T said:


> I cannot beleive people are agreeing with the drivers actions. Yes cutting the corner is minor and a non-incident, but I only passed comment. It was up to the driver to infuriate things. I wasnt expecting or anticipating anything less than the car just driving away.
> The reason I passed comment was that the corner cut was very large and someone could have been coming from the other direction.


 



Blimey 12 pages!

I have read the first 6 then skipped to last.

SilverFox's post at #117 seems to encapsulate everything.

You are young perhaps idealistic seeing things in black and white. I am not ciriticising you but what could be the outcome of such an altercation with a driver about their poor driving? Realistically they are NOT going to thank you for criticising their poor driving are they? So they will be hostile whether men or women drivers, old or young will take your remark as a slight against them. Once the mercury starts to rise and the red mist comes down you are suddenly very vulnerable. Stuff like this simply doesn't matter. It's not worth it. The driver is right. His bad driving didn't affect you. It's not excusing his behaviour but it didn't. What then follows could have become very ugly and was obviously scary for you. If you want to continue confronting drivers then take up boxing as at some point you will have to defend yourself.

We all want to see you live to a ripe old age, have lots of kids and grand kids. Let stuff like this go. It really doesn't matter. It's a hard and nasty enough world without attracting trouble and risking becoming a statistic. Hopefully you are a quick learner because if some one decides you are being a little too cheeky or critical you could be caused some serious harm. Are you trying to put the world to rights or be some sort of pseudo policeman as I just don't see what your intial reaction to this driver achieves?

Anyway the driver forcing you stop and then threatening you seems to me to have amounted to a variety of public order offences. Were there any witnesses? Always have an escape route. I would have been riding on the pavement straight away to try and get away.


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## Matthew_T (21 Jun 2012)

Crankarm said:


> Anyway the driver forcing you stop and then threatening you seems to me to have amounted to a variety of public order offences. Were there any witnesses? Always have an escape route. I would have been riding on the pavement straight away to try and get away.


That was an option. I am taking the footage on a disc into the police station tomorrow so they said they would check for witnesses and other vehicles who might have seen something.


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## Matthew_T (21 Jun 2012)

People are starting to repeat themselves now, especially with how long this is going on for.

The opinions I have collated and generalised are that 1) I shouldnt have muttered under my breath so loud that the driver could here. 2) The "See ya" comment was uncalled for. 3) I handled the confrontation well. 4) The driver was a tool and should be punished for pursuing me. And 5) I need to learn to ignore everythinng on the roads and just concentrate on my riding, even if people put me and other people in danger.


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## Miquel In De Rain (21 Jun 2012)

I think the driver over-reacted,but that happens and I could get that anytime.

Im not bothered though because the idiots have worn me down.


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## Boris Bajic (21 Jun 2012)

Matthew_T said:


> People are starting to repeat themselves now, especially with how long this is going on for.
> 
> The opinions I have collated and generalised are that 1) I shouldnt have muttered under my breath so loud that the driver could here. 2) The "See ya" comment was uncalled for. 3) I handled the confrontation well. 4) The driver was a tool and should be punished for pursuing me. And 5) I need to learn to ignore everythinng on the roads and just concentrate on my riding, even if people put me and other people in danger.


 
I'm glad this thread has been useful Matthew. I think most of the advice was positive and constructive.

I think your summing up of the points is largely accurate, although I think you might be being slightly disingenuous in the fifth.

I don't believe anyone is telling you to ignore *everything*; it's a matter of judgement and a matter of degree.

Keep riding and keep enjoying it.


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## TwickenhamCyclist (21 Jun 2012)

Miquel In De Rain said:


> View: http://youtu.be/E9_KGuobhAs
> 
> 
> But this isn't the only one just one of the latest ones.Some are shocking,appalling driving.
> ...




I wasn’t accusing you of making it up, honest!  I just like to look at other cyclist’s video’s sometimes – and you hinted you had a youtube channel but, unlike some posters on here, there was no link in your footer... thanks for posting – I shall enjoy browsing your channel later


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## Linford (21 Jun 2012)

Does active video capture empower that person with a sense of riteousness, and encourage them to seek out confrontation to improve their sense of this - as in that they might try and manipulate their environment to bring them into contact with confrontation ?


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## BentMikey (21 Jun 2012)

You guys have no idea what highly strung is, and what tiny things will anger some people to ridiculous lengths. I'm slightly involved in a debacle between two other youtube users over a comment and response, and you wouldn't believe it. Sorry I can't make it public.


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## SquareDaff (21 Jun 2012)

Miquel In De Rain said:


> Wow,what a tough guy.
> 
> 
> So I take it you don't come across any bad driving on which you make a comment on then?
> ...


If you read my past contributions then you know I do - just not with this regularity.


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## PK99 (21 Jun 2012)

Linford said:


> Does active video capture empower that person with a sense of riteousness, and encourage them to seek out confrontation to improve their sense of this - as in that they might try and manipulate their environment to bring them into contact with confrontation ?


 
.... a process analogous to risk compensation?


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## benb (21 Jun 2012)

Linford said:


> Does active video capture empower that person with a sense of riteousness, and encourage them to seek out confrontation to improve their sense of this - as in that they might try and manipulate their environment to bring them into contact with confrontation ?


 
No, not in my experience.


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## Linford (21 Jun 2012)

PK99 said:


> .... a process analogous to risk compensation?


 
I think there is something in that - in the same way you get a gang of kids together, and the gobby one is usually the smallest who feels properly hard with his big mates stood behind him.

they take risks because they feel they have something else to back them up if it turns ugly.


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## smutchin (21 Jun 2012)

I certainly think this is the case with some cam users, though by no means all. 

d.


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## Matthew_T (21 Jun 2012)

Linford said:


> Does active video capture empower that person with a sense of riteousness, and encourage them to seek out confrontation to improve their sense of this - as in that they might try and manipulate their environment to bring them into contact with confrontation ?


If you go through my videos (recent ones) then you will see that in none of them did I 'look' for the incident. How can someone look for an incident? The only way I can expect that is by riding in a dangerous manner and moving closer to vehicle to then have something to complain about. I maintain my line on the roads, and in this situation had moved into a road to allow traffic behind me to pass. At no point did I see the car coming and make it cut the corner just so I could say something.
I cannot control what people do on the roads, but it seems my commenting on their mistakes meets their need to be able to intimidate and endanger me and other road users to have a confrontation.


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## BSRU (21 Jun 2012)

Matthew_T said:


> If you go through my videos (recent ones) then you will see that in none of them did I 'look' for the incident. How can someone look for an incident? The only way I can expect that is by riding in a dangerous manner and moving closer to vehicle to then have something to complain about. I maintain my line on the roads, and in this situation had moved into a road to allow traffic behind me to pass. At no point did I see the car coming and make it cut the corner just so I could say something.
> I cannot control what people do on the roads, but it seems my commenting on their mistakes meets their need to be able to intimidate and endanger me and other road users to have a confrontation.


Matthew, you just have to accept that for whatever reason some cyclists do not like and will never like cam-cyclists.
A cam-cyclist would have to have a huge death wish to deliberately put themselves in very dangerous situations with large steel boxes just in order to create confrontation.


----------



## Panter (21 Jun 2012)

Matthew_T said:


> People are starting to repeat themselves now, especially with how long this is going on for.
> 
> The opinions I have collated and generalised are that 1) I shouldnt have muttered under my breath so loud that the driver could here. 2) The "See ya" comment was uncalled for. 3) I handled the confrontation well. 4) The driver was a tool and should be punished for pursuing me. And 5) I need to learn to ignore everythinng on the roads and just concentrate on my riding, even if people put me and other people in danger.


 
No, not number 5, just weight up the actual risk to yourself or others before reacting if necessary. Just my opinion though.


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## LCpl Boiled Egg (21 Jun 2012)

Linford said:


> Does active video capture empower that person with a sense of riteousness, and encourage them to seek out confrontation to improve their sense of this - as in that they might try and manipulate their environment to bring them into contact with confrontation ?


 
Why not start a new thread with this question if you really wish to discuss it? I'm not sure that it adds anything to this one.


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## Matthew_T (21 Jun 2012)

Panter said:


> No, not number 5, just weight up the actual risk to yourself or others before reacting if necessary. Just my opinion though.


Yes, and the risk in this situation was minimal. There was very little risk. It is just that the driver took it upon him to create a situation when there wasnt one. Yes, I possibly could have just sighed or shook my head (he wasnt looking at me when he passed) but it is difficult not to give a response to something which is wrong and dangerous.


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## PK99 (21 Jun 2012)

Matthew_T said:


> If you go through my videos (recent ones) then you will see that in none of them did I 'look' for the incident. How can someone look for an incident?


Matt, have you learned nothing from this thread?
you sought and found confrontation in the incident under discussion by your attitude and behaviour. vThe event had happened and was ended until you chose to verbally confront the driver, he should not have responded as he did but you most certainly sought and provoked the ensuing confrontation
in 
*MJ57RVZ - Very close pinch point pass and brake test - you gave an air zound blast after the van had passed and the danger was over : see highway code  112​*
*The horn. Use only while your vehicle is moving and you need to warn other road users of your presence. Never sound your horn aggressively.​*
ditto in most of the incidents in "Airzound Moments" where you are expressing displeasure at what has been done not to protect yourself by warning of your prescene


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## gambatte (21 Jun 2012)

User3094 said:


> The point of the story? The cyclist is *never* at fault, and nor should they ever be,.


 
BS
In Matt own club ride vid above he could quite easily have met a vehicle coming the other way. In that case, the cyclist would have been to blame.


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## PK99 (21 Jun 2012)

User3094 said:


> The point of the story? The cyclist is *never* at fault, and nor should they ever be,.


 
utter nonsense!


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## Matthew_T (21 Jun 2012)

User3094 said:


> I was on a Speed Awareness course yesterday and we were relayed a story....
> 
> A driver friend of the instructor is currently in Walton jail for killing a cyclist. The driver was not speeding and proceeding through a green traffic light and hit the cyclist who had red light jumped. The drivers life has understandably been ruined and he is now on suicide watch.
> 
> ...


In that situation, I wont say all the blame is on the cyclist, but the majority of it is. The driver was (mistake me if I am wrong) in his right to proceed throught the traffic light, and was using a (mistake me if I am wrong) legal form of communication.
The cyclist jumped a red light.

It is pretty obvious it is the cyclists fault but I dont understand why the driver is in jail. What was he sentenced with?


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## Linford (21 Jun 2012)

ABikeCam said:


> Why not start a new thread with this question if you really wish to discuss it? I'm not sure that it adds anything to this one.


 
I do feel that he may not have been so keen to continue the confrintation if it wasn't on the cam, andthat the knowledge in the back of his mind that it was running did empower him to escalate it when he could see that the bloke was getting irate.

Sure I can start another thread on the subject, but it will only refer back to this one, and the events in the clips. The other vid where he cut the blind corner. Would he have done that if not for chasing more excitement in the captured footage ?


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## Matthew_T (21 Jun 2012)

gambatte said:


> BS
> In Matt own club ride vid above he could quite easily have met a vehicle coming the other way. In that case, the cyclist would have been to blame.


And I would have accepted the blame because I knew I was in the wrong. Unlike this driver who thought cutting the corner was perfectly fine.


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## Matthew_T (21 Jun 2012)

Linford said:


> Sure I can start another thread on the subject, but it will only refer back to this one, and the events in the clips. The other vid where he cut the blind corner. Would he have done that if not for chasing more excitement in the captured footage ?


I was chasing the pack and trying to catch up. I am not the fastest rider in the bunch so have to make up time where I can.


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## LCpl Boiled Egg (21 Jun 2012)

Linford said:


> I do feel that he may not have been so keen to continue the confrintation if it wasn't on the cam, andthat the knowledge in the back of his mind that it was running did empower him to escalate it when he could see that the bloke was getting irate.
> 
> Sure I can start another thread on the subject, but it will only refer back to this one, and the events in the clips. The other vid where he cut the blind corner. Would he have done that if not for chasing more excitement in the captured footage ?


 
I'm not discussing my views on this, in this thread. End of.


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## Matthew_T (21 Jun 2012)

PK99 said:


> Matt, have you learned nothing from this thread?
> you sought and found confrontation in the incident under discussion by your attitude and behaviour. vThe event had happened and was ended until you chose to verbally confront the driver, he should not have responded as he did but you most certainly sought and provoked the ensuing confrontation
> in
> 
> ...


That displeasure is much better than swearing. It means that i am unlikely to come over agressive. It raises drivers awareness of what they have just done.


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## Linford (21 Jun 2012)

ABikeCam said:


> I'm not discussing my views on this, in this thread. End of.


 
Feel free to start your own thread on the subject if that is the case with some of your own examples ?. Either way, the suggestion has struck a chord with you so perhaps it would be a good thing.....


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## Linford (21 Jun 2012)

Matthew_T said:


> That displeasure is much better than swearing. It means that i am unlikely to come over agressive. It raises drivers awareness of what they have just done.


 
You are using the airzound to vent your spleen though. It is a demonstration that you are allowing emotion to rule in a judgment call as you have reacted after the event. This is another example of antagonisitic behaviour which would rightly be condemned if it came from a car driver.


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## Boris Bajic (21 Jun 2012)

Matthew_T said:


> I was chasing the pack and trying to catch up. I am not the fastest rider in the bunch so have to make up time where I can.


 
Matthew, I quite understsand that feeling of looking to make up time where possible...

Imagine a motorist saying that after cutting a corner, making a slightly close pass, running an amber light or pulling out when unsure if it is safe to do so.

You may draw a distinction between a motorist and a cyclist mitigating poor road behaviour because of a need to get a move on.

Many would not. We are all road users and we ought all to abide by the same rules. 

I get the feeling you'd like this thread to come to an end now. That being so, it may be a good idea to stop digging and put that spade down.

Keep cycling and keep enjoying it.


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## mr_hippo (21 Jun 2012)

Matthew_T said:


> And I would have accepted the blame because I knew I was in the wrong. Unlike this driver who thought cutting the corner was perfectly fine.


What if you were in no position to take the blame; you would be OK with your harp & halo or oerhaps your pitchfork; what about the driver? He will be reliving that scene, not for the next few days or weeks but for the rest of his natural life.


Matthew_T said:


> I was chasing the pack and trying to catch up. I am not the fastest rider in the bunch so have to make up time where I can.


That is no excuse for breaking the law


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## Boris Bajic (21 Jun 2012)

User3094 said:


> I was on a Speed Awareness course yesterday and we were relayed a story....
> 
> A driver friend of the instructor is currently in Walton jail for killing a cyclist. The driver was not speeding and proceeding through a green traffic light and hit the cyclist who had red light jumped. The drivers life has understandably been ruined and he is now on suicide watch.
> 
> ...


 
This is a most unusual tale and doesn't sit well with your later post that the charge was 'Undue Care'.

Green light, hands free, jailed for undue care? I fear the person running the course may have been smoking a hyperbole pipe.

Apologies if I'm wrong, but this doesn't add up.


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## gambatte (21 Jun 2012)

User3094 said:


> Undue care.


 I believe the penalty is 3-9 points, a discretionary disqualification and/or a fine. Where it falls on the scale will depend on what you actually did.


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## benb (21 Jun 2012)

Boris Bajic said:


> This is a most unusual tale and doesn't sit well with your later post that the charge was 'Undue Care'.
> 
> Green light, hands free, jailed for undue care? I fear the person running the course may have been smoking a hyperbole pipe.
> 
> Apologies if I'm wrong, but this doesn't add up.


 
I agree. Given that motorists hardly ever get a custodial sentence, even when they kill someone and are entirely at fault, I think there is more to this case that we know.


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## gambatte (21 Jun 2012)

*Sentencing*

If you are convicted of driving without due care and attention then you face 3 to 9 penalty points on your licence. You will also face the possibility of a fine and Court Costs. The penalty points of driving without due care and attention are 3 to 9. If it is a very serious allegation then the Magistrates can impose a discretionary disqualification under Section 34 of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 for whatever period the Court feels is appropriate.
http://www.pattersonlaw.co.uk/Without-Due-Care-and-Attention.php


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## gambatte (21 Jun 2012)

I can see why the motorist would have got prosecuted. Yeah they had a green, but they were on the phone, which is illegal and has been shown to be as bad as being over the limit. So whilst the cyclist shouldn't have RLJed, the driver wasn't exactly free of blame.
I don't think this can be equated to the cyclist is never to blame.


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## green1 (21 Jun 2012)

User3094 said:


> Maybe, there is, I dont know. It was the point about _blame_ I was trying to make, and that we (as cyclists) need to get away from this victim culture we have. Road tax or not, we have as much right to be there as the tin boxes. Except we are not surrounded by 2 tons of anticrumple zones and airbags, or have the kinetic energy of a shell fired from a tank (not even downhill).


And with rights come responsibilities, like obeying traffic lights. I'm not a perfect rider or driver but the amount of selfish tossers on the road on both 2 and 4 wheels annoys me.


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## green1 (21 Jun 2012)

gambatte said:


> I can see why the motorist would have got prosecuted. Yeah they had a green, but they were on the phone, *which is illegal* and has been shown to be as bad as being over the limit. So whilst the cyclist shouldn't have RLJed, the driver wasn't exactly free of blame.
> I don't think this can be equated to the cyclist is never to blame.


No it isn't. I often use my handsfree phone whilst driving. Far less distracting than having passengers, especially screaming kids in the back seat.


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## gambatte (21 Jun 2012)

green1 said:


> No it isn't. I often use my handsfree phone whilst driving. Far less distracting than having passengers, especially screaming kids in the back seat.


 
Aye, I'll give you that. Seeing as there's a couple of descriptions of what the catchall term 'handsfree' can mean I assumed the reference was to illegal use of a phone in the car, otherwise how can it be brought up in the case as a contributory factor.


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## smutchin (21 Jun 2012)

User3094 said:


> If you go to Holland, its written in their fundamental law that the motorist is *always* to blame


 
Up to a point, Lord Copper. They have "strict liability" which isn't quite the same thing.

d.


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## gambatte (21 Jun 2012)

User3094 said:


> If you go to Holland, its written in their fundamental law that the motorist is *always* to blame.


Thought that was 'initially presumed'


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## LosingFocus (21 Jun 2012)

User3094 said:


> If you go to Holland, its written in their fundamental law that the motorist is *always* to blame


 
Kinda. Presumed guilt in the event of a motorvehicle+bicycle incident until proved otherwise.


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## green1 (21 Jun 2012)

User3094 said:


> If you go to Holland, its written in their fundamental law that the motorist is *always* to blame


Not according to my Dutch coworker, they have a presumption of liability not strict liability.

Edit: and even that would only work in a civil case. Anything criminal would be innocent until proven guilty.


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## TheJDog (21 Jun 2012)

The red light jumping cyclist story is nonsense until proven otherwise. The only story google has to offer is about a speeding and texting driver who killed a rljing cyclist in Southampton, which is much more believable.


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## mr_hippo (21 Jun 2012)

This thread started when Cariad Bach from North Wales provokes a nothing incident that escalates into more pages than my `Two ducks in front of a duck` thread. We get the unverified & unsourced story of a driver in jail and now we have moved to Dutch law which does not have any legal standing in the UK - apart from, correct me if I am wrong, in the Netherlands Embassy and its consulates


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## gambatte (21 Jun 2012)

It has potential to affect you too Mr Hippo. I believe it has some standing in Tie-land and I believe some aisles of Sock Shop.


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## Boris Bajic (21 Jun 2012)

mr_hippo said:


> This thread started when Cariad Bach from North Wales provokes a nothing incident that escalates into more pages than my `Two ducks in front of a duck` thread. We get the unverified & unsourced story of a driver in jail and now we have moved to Dutch law which does not have any legal standing in the UK - apart from, correct me if I am wrong, in the Netherlands Embassy and its consulates


 
Are you trying to bring duck convoys into this?

Would that be Duck Convoys as laid out under English Law or the same items as laid out under Dutch Law?

This thread is beginning to make less sense than I do.

No wonder our jails are so full!


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## PK99 (21 Jun 2012)

User3094 said:


> If you go to Holland, its written in their fundamental law that the motorist is *always* to blame
> 
> ly.


 
Good article here > http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2012/01/campaign-for-sustainable-safety-not.html which give a lot of background and info on the dutch laws.
A couple of particular points:



> However, a cyclist or pedestrian who is older than 14 years of age is expected to know how to behave on the streets and is likely to be held at least partly responsible in the event of a crash. If they're behaving recklessly then they can instantly expect at least 50% of the blame for any collision. *An adult pedestrian dressed in black and crossing a road without looking can expect to be held to be liable for damage to a motor vehicle which hits him. That is what the law makes clear.*


 


> Article 185 came onto the statute here ​_after​_ there was a majority cycling culture. The law as it stands now dates from the 1990s when cycling in the Netherlands ​already looked like this​.​


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## mr_hippo (21 Jun 2012)

Boris Bajic said:


> Are you trying to bring duck convoys into this?


Just trying to duck the issue before the thread drives me anf others quackers but may be Pekin in from time to time!


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## Miquel In De Rain (21 Jun 2012)

TwickenhamCyclist said:


> I wasn’t accusing you of making it up, honest!  I just like to look at other cyclist’s video’s sometimes – and you hinted you had a youtube channel but, unlike some posters on here, there was no link in your footer... thanks for posting – I shall enjoy browsing your channel later


 
No problem,this wasn't even the worst incident.

Yes I did have a go.


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## gambatte (21 Jun 2012)

User3094 said:


> For Google is God.


 
As is someone you've just met?


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## CopperCyclist (21 Jun 2012)

Boris Bajic said:


> This is a most unusual tale and doesn't sit well with your later post that the charge was 'Undue Care'.
> 
> Green light, hands free, jailed for undue care? I fear the person running the course may have been smoking a hyperbole pipe.
> 
> Apologies if I'm wrong, but this doesn't add up.



I had exactly the same thoughts.


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## Peowpeowpeowlasers (21 Jun 2012)

User3094 said:


> I was on a Speed Awareness course yesterday and we were relayed a story....
> 
> A driver friend of the instructor is currently in Walton jail for killing a cyclist. The driver was not speeding and proceeding through a green traffic light and hit the cyclist who had red light jumped. The drivers life has understandably been ruined and he is now on suicide watch.
> 
> ...


 
A green light does not mean the junction is clear and that you can blithely go on about your business.

/edit - I realise you know this.


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## gambatte (21 Jun 2012)

gambatte said:


> As is someone you've just met?





User3094 said:


> Maybe you would like to re-read post #279 before you make a tit of yourself again?


Post #279


User3094 said:


> Maybe, there is, I dont know. It was the point about _blame_ I was trying to make, and that we (as cyclists) need to get away from this victim culture we have. Road tax or not, we have as much right to be there as the tin boxes. Except we are not surrounded by 2 tons of anticrumple zones and airbags, or have the kinetic energy of a shell fired from a tank (not even downhill).
> 
> And for those on here that know me, will know that as a self professed 'petrol head', this might be a surprising POV.


?????????????????


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## Nigeyy (21 Jun 2012)

Hey, I'm late to the party.

Matthew, from your original post -and I want to be clear -the driver sounds like a nasty piece of work to me, and certainly shouldn't have reacted that way. However, like life, some things aren't clear cut (and this isn't to say you acted incorrectly or that you're wrong). I think when you make comments that may aggravate a situation -and I certainly consider what you said certainly wasn't bad but could cause a response as evidenced by what happened -you can get bad experiences.

Again, what you said shouldn't cause such a reaction in a_ reasonable_ person, but clearly the person wasn't _reasonable_. One way to avoid such situations is, to put no finer word on it, bite your tongue. For example, if I see Mike Tyson in the street, I could easily go up to him and tell him he's a no good ear biting cheat who beats women -note I _could_ (and I would arguably be correct). Would I? Heck no! While there's no law against doing that, and Mike Tyson shouldn't beat me to a pulp for simply expressing my opinion, I think clearly it's a very, very bad idea. Maybe imagine every driver is Mike Tyson? After all, who knows who a driver is and their mental state anyway?

Having said that, clearly there are times where someone's actions elicit a strong Anglo-Saxon invective and a less than gracious description of what they are doing if they put you in danger. I'd be surprized if there's anyone on this board who hasn't done that at some time or another, and I think it's very understandable. But from your description, it sounds like this isn't the case -again, I'm not excusing the behaviour of the driver, but sometimes it's easier to not give reason for a confrontation -you can't assume everyone around you is reasonable. You're now at the stage where you are considering dealing with the police and possibly other time consuming issues, let alone the possibility of dealing with this unreasonable person again.

Again, I want to state clearly what you did was not wrong to a reasonable person, but you have to be prepared for the consequences from unreasonable people. It's your choice.


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## Matthew_T (21 Jun 2012)

It is so stressing not saying anything. I passed a runner today who was running on the road right besides a wide section of pavement. He was holding up about 5 cars and the woman directly behind him looked a little bemused by what he was doing.
In the back of my mind I had the past videos where another cyclist has shouted abuse at runners for being in the cycle lane. Of course I wasnt going to abuse him but saying "Its safer on the path" went through my mind.I decided to play it safe and just say nothing.

I also had two incidents today where two cars beeped me. The first seemed to be a bit cheery so I ignored it, and the second was through a set of traffic lights with cars waiting to turn right. In both situations I ignored them.

On the upside, I had a little chat with gavroche as I left the police station. And then a cyclist jumped the lights right in front of us.


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## marzjennings (21 Jun 2012)

User3094 said:


> I was on a Speed Awareness course yesterday and we were relayed a story....
> 
> A driver friend of the instructor is currently in Walton jail for killing a cyclist. The driver was not speeding and proceeding through a green traffic light and hit the cyclist who had red light jumped. The drivers life has understandably been ruined and he is now on suicide watch.
> 
> ...


 

I didn't think hands free phone use was illegal in the UK. Is this new?


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## mr_hippo (21 Jun 2012)

Time for my bed, will we be at 400 posts by morning?


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## Miquel In De Rain (21 Jun 2012)

Must admit Matt,peds or joggers don't really bother me.



marzjennings said:


> I didn't think hands free phone use was illegal in the UK. Is this new?


 
I thought it was illegal and no it isn't new.Correct me if im wrong.TIA


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## green1 (21 Jun 2012)

Hands free whilst driving as long as its completely hands free, ie not pressing a button on phone to answer etc is legal.


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## green1 (21 Jun 2012)

User3094 said:


> Yup. Its only in the case of an accident the poilce will go through your records to see if you were on the (hands free) phone at the time of the accident to try and prove a distraction / lack of concentration.


You have proof of this? Are they going to start fitting mikes to car cabins to see if a driver was distracted by a passenger?


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## Matthew_T (21 Jun 2012)

Something which I picked up on when talking to the police officer yesterday, is the talk about witnesses. She said that they will have to view the footage and find witnesses for a public order offence.
The thing is, how to the police trace a person from just a picture of their face? A picture of my face isnt on the police database so how would they contact me if I was a witness to a crime?


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## Nigel-YZ1 (21 Jun 2012)

Doesn't matter if even farting is made illegal while driving, we can't enforce the laws we've got


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## Miquel In De Rain (21 Jun 2012)

Nigel-YZ1 said:


> Doesn't matter if even farting is made illegal while driving, we can't enforce the laws we've got


 
I thought that was illegal also.

Of course I probably prefer someone to be on a hands free as opposed to texting whilst driving.


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## oldfatfool (21 Jun 2012)

Matthew_T said:


> Something which I picked up on when talking to the police officer yesterday, is the talk about witnesses. She said that they will have to view the footage and find witnesses for a public order offence.
> The thing is, how to the police trace a person from just a picture of their face? A picture of my face isnt on the police database so how would they contact me if I was a witness to a crime?


Did you point out that the vehicle appeared to be uninsured?


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## fossyant (21 Jun 2012)

Oh folk, keep it civil please


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## Matthew_T (21 Jun 2012)

oldfatfool said:


> Did you point out that the vehicle appeared to be uninsured?


I did mention that someone online had spoke of it (I didnt give any names) and she said that they normally do checks and research on the cars and drivers history first of all.


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## fossyant (21 Jun 2012)

Matthew_T said:


> I did mention that someone online had spoke of it (I didnt give any names) and she said that they normally do checks and research on the cars and drivers history first of all.


 
They do indeed. The tussle I had with a guy - the officer actually recommended we press for an investigation rather than just 'logging it' as the driver had previous. In the end the driver got a talking to, I was told not to 'raise my hand' again (apparently that was agressive - no fingers used, so it was OK for the driver to drive at me - office just shrugged), but the driver had another notch on his record - won't look good when they can pin something on him next time.


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## Electric_Andy (21 Jun 2012)

Ian Cooper said:


> That's 'assault and battery'. When he touched you he committed battery. Contrary to popular belief, assault is not a physical attack - it's merely a verbal threat that makes you apprehend an attack. When he touches you, that is battery.
> 
> In England and Wales, battery is usually a summary offence, but if tried, it can be punishable with imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months, or a fine not exceeding level 5 (£5000) on the standard scale, or both. Of course, usually it doesn't work out anywhere near that nicely, and these idiots usually get off with a warning.


 
Are you a Lawyer?! You seem to know lots about these things.


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## Hip Priest (21 Jun 2012)

Matthew_T said:


> It is so stressing not saying anything. I passed a runner today who was running on the road right besides a wide section of pavement. He was holding up about 5 cars and the woman directly behind him looked a little bemused by what he was doing.
> In the back of my mind I had the past videos where another cyclist has shouted abuse at runners for being in the cycle lane. Of course I wasnt going to abuse him but saying "Its safer on the path" went through my mind.I decided to play it safe and just say nothing.
> 
> I also had two incidents today where two cars beeped me. The first seemed to be a bit cheery so I ignored it, and the second was through a set of traffic lights with cars waiting to turn right. In both situations I ignored them.
> ...



Well done on holding your tongue. One of those three people could have been a nutter and caused you some bother. You're best off ignoring them.


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## gambatte (21 Jun 2012)

fossyant said:


> I was told not to 'raise my hand' again (apparently that was agressive -


 

I guess it's to do with 'appearance' I used to do quite a bit of martial arts, years ago, not the types with sporting applications. We were taught to be aware that any situation COULD be subject to CCTV.
The typical 'stance with your fists infront of you looks aggressive. Open your hands and turn the palms towards your opponent and the appearance of who's the aggressor changes, yet your hands are in basically the same place.


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## fossyant (21 Jun 2012)

gambatte said:


> I guess it's to do with 'appearance' .


 
In my case it was a 'what' jesture - flat palm, raised back towards motorist, but anything can be misread, especially by a nutter with a short fuse.


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## LosingFocus (21 Jun 2012)

fossyant said:


> In my case it was a 'what' jesture - flat palm, raised back towards motorist, but, anything can be misread, especially be a nutter with a short fuse.


 
True. I gave a WBlueVM a thanks-thumb-up yesterday as he waited behind me on a bend and then gave loads of room in his pass. My thanks? He slowed and shouted "yeah f--- you too you c---". I had to do a double take to make sure he wasnt talking to anyone else, but no-one else was around. He drove off, I rode on bemused...


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## Matthew_T (21 Jun 2012)

LosingFocus said:


> True. I gave a WBlueVM a thanks-thumb-up yesterday as he waited behind me on a bend and then gave loads of room in his pass. My thanks? He slowed and shouted "yeah f--- you too you c---". I had to do a double take to make sure he wasnt talking to anyone else, but no-one else was around. He drove off, I rode on bemused...


I regularly give people thumbs up (more times than I have incidents with people). I have never had one misread a gesture though. If someone did, I would probably apologise and just say that I was thanking them for the overtake/waiting through a pinch point/junction.


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## Linford (21 Jun 2012)

User3094 said:


> If they can prove you were eating an apple, having an argument, smoking a fag, twiddling with your CD player.... it all amounts to the same thing.
> 
> A lot of big companies have had them taken out of all company cars. O2 included.
> 
> http://www.standard.co.uk/news/hand...using-death-by-dangerous-driving-6837319.html


 

Does that include long drives or rides being broken by messaging on CC or FB

How can one function without being connected to a place they can have a bit of a ding dong if they are prohibited from having one in real life on the road


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## PK99 (21 Jun 2012)

Matthew_T said:


> I regularly give people thumbs up (more times than I have incidents with people). I have never had one misread a gesture though. If someone did, I would probably apologise and just say that I was thanking them for the overtake/waiting through a pinch point/junction.


 
Observe and learn:
People like positive signals/messages - it makes them feel good
People don't like negative signals and messages - the feel threatened


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## Matthew_T (21 Jun 2012)

I think this has gone on for long enough now guys. 17 pages seems a bit too much. The incident has been reported and the police are certain that they can push for a Public Order Offence.
I understand that some of the things I said and did may have provoked him and that I need to learn when to not say anything.


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## 4F (21 Jun 2012)

and one other thing Matthew, if you do cut a corner on your bike don't upload the video to your you tube channel  Sorted.


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## Miquel In De Rain (21 Jun 2012)

mr_hippo said:


> Time for my bed, will we be at 400 posts by morning?


 
We will try,I promise.


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## Crankarm (21 Jun 2012)

I have a helmet cam but in the short time I used it I never had the urge to show footage publicly. My purpose for having a head cam, two actually, one front and one rear facing, was in the event I was knocked down to record any footage of the driver and vehicle that did it. Simply this. I can't think of anything more tedious than downloading and trawling through hours of boring footage of me riding to and from work or town, to post a few seconds of some idiot or thug having 30 seconds of fame. The first time I was KD'd I didn't have one. The second time it was dark and cold, I didn't have it on as footage is very poor in low light.


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## Hip Priest (21 Jun 2012)

I had a rare incident tonight. Woman in a Fiesta tried to overtake me in a line of crawling traffic. I simply maintained a solid primary and kept ahead. When we got to the roundabout, she sat behind revving her engine. 5 years ago I'd have probably started yelling. But now I just remained calm and confident, thinking 'you'll have to wait until it's safe for me to pull out and that's that.'

She'll probably get home and feel bad about it. Whereas I've got the moral high-ground and chips for tea.

Zen.


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## Crankarm (21 Jun 2012)

Hip Priest said:


> I had a rare incident tonight. Woman in a Fiesta tried to overtake me in a line of crawling traffic. I simply maintained a solid primary and kept ahead. When we got to the roundabout, she sat behind revving her engine. 5 years ago I'd have probably started yelling. But now I just remained calm and confident, thinking 'you'll have to wait until it's safe for me to pull out and that's that.'
> 
> She'll probably get home and feel bad about it. Whereas I've got the moral high-ground and chips for tea.
> 
> Zen.


 
You didn't give her a quick hard stare ....................... .

Maybe she liked the look of what she saw ....... and was just trying to get your attention?


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## 400bhp (21 Jun 2012)

Hip Priest said:


> I had a rare incident tonight. Woman in a Fiesta tried to overtake me in a line of crawling traffic. I simply maintained a solid primary and kept ahead. When we got to the roundabout, she sat behind revving her engine. 5 years ago I'd have probably started yelling. But now I just remained calm and confident, thinking 'you'll have to wait until it's safe for me to pull out and that's that.'
> 
> She'll probably get home and feel bad about it. Whereas I've got the moral high-ground and chips for tea.
> 
> Zen.


 
You know what, this zen thing works.

I had a late start this morning so was in the 8am rush hour. I go through my usual PITA one way system which has a crappy cycle lane that you can't use due to it being right against a line of parked cars and a blind corner. I didn't take the lane enough and had a car squeeze past. As it was rush hour he joins the back of a queue 200 yds ahead.

I knock on his window - I can see he has become agitated as he winds down the window. I simply say words along the lines of "please give me more space next time, I have to ride further out there becausae it is a blind bend and I can't use the stupid cycle lane because it's too close to park cars..etc etc...cycle lane is crap." He says fair enough.

Job done I reckon.

We should all remember that we are all only trying to get somewhere-whether that be by car or bicycle.

[about 200yds further on I nearly get t-boned with a driver turning right across the lane..I didn't, hopefully that was karma]


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## 400bhp (21 Jun 2012)

Matthew_T said:


> I think this has gone on for long enough now guys. 17 pages seems a bit too much. The incident has been reported and the police are certain that they can push for a Public Order Offence.
> I understand that some of the things I said and did may have provoked him and that I need to learn when to not say anything.


 
We hope not to see similar incidents posted on here again.


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## benb (21 Jun 2012)

Blimey, now I'm collecting them. I was turning right in this case, and had to hit the anchors.


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## PK99 (21 Jun 2012)

400bhp said:


> . I simply say words along the lines of "please give me more space next time, I have to ride further out there becausae it is a blind bend and I can't use the stupid cycle lane because it's too close to park cars..etc etc...cycle lane is crap." He says fair enough.
> 
> ]


 
Matt: observe and learn! Inform & educate, don't assume malice and confront


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## Primal Scream (21 Jun 2012)

Matt, I have replied to your posts before and I do think you sometimes seem to over react sometimes, that said if that driver had reacted in the manner you described he would have been been spitting out teeth after having chewed my D lock and to hell with the consequences.


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## Miquel In De Rain (22 Jun 2012)

Crankarm said:


> I have a helmet cam but in the short time I used it I never had the urge to show footage publicly. My purpose for having a head cam, two actually, one front and one rear facing, was in the event I was knocked down to record any footage of the driver and vehicle that did it. Simply this. I can't think of anything more tedious than downloading and trawling through hours of boring footage of me riding to and from work or town, to post a few seconds of some idiot or thug having 30 seconds of fame. The first time I was KD'd I didn't have one. The second time it was dark and cold, I didn't have it on as footage is very poor in low light.


 
Actually I quite like my camera footage,I was just looking over an old channel and some footage and it made me laugh...I also noticed I was coughing a lot at the time,I had some sort of chest infection.
I have an appointment (soon) with the hospital as im told I have lung damage.It's spooky watching those videos where I was coughing all the time.I remember what it was like at the time.If it's going to go tits up when I have a go,I cant run scared.You have to make a stand sometimes,whatever happens.


View: http://youtu.be/86PV-ooBYOE


The most famous video of the lot,two major incidents in six commutes,this being the closest.On the old channel of course.I was breathing quite heavy on this one,showing my lack of fitness.(Illness)

After this near collision I rethought what sort of handlebars I would use as my hands were nowhere near the brakes at the time.

If the driver had made more of this I would have gladly discussed this further,I was so irate at the time.I'm not going to succumb to aceholes all the time.

I like the camera on the helmet thingy as it shows more up.Will work to fit the camera on my helmet instead of the handlebars.


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## Linford (22 Jun 2012)

Primal Scream said:


> Matt, I have replied to your posts before and I do think you sometimes seem to over react sometimes, that said if that driver had reacted in the manner you described he would have been been spitting out teeth after having chewed my D lock and to hell with the consequences.


 
And then we go back to behaviour modification. If you were using a cam, that isn't the sort of incident you would be looking to run to the police with ?

The OP made the mistake of uploading multiple clips showing himself in a worse light as a road user in the way he cut a blind corner at speed. The driver whilst behaving like a total cock did cut the corner, but had a line of sight through it, and didn't put anyone or himself at risk with his actions. Perhaps that is why he had such an extreme response as he didn't like being lecured too by someone he perceived to be far less experienced to make that call (and as it happens, it looks that way as well)


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## benb (22 Jun 2012)

Linford said:


> And then we go back to behaviour modification. If you were using a cam, that isn't the sort of incident you would be looking to run to the police with ?
> 
> The OP made the mistake of uploading multiple clips showing himself in a worse light as a road user in the way he cut a blind corner at speed. The driver whilst behaving like a total cock did cut the corner, but had a line of sight through it, and didn't put anyone or himself at risk with his actions. Perhaps that is why he had such an extreme response as he didn't like being lecured too by someone he perceived to be far less experienced to make that call (and as it happens, it looks that way as well)


 
I still maintain that the diver couldn't be 100% sure there wasn't another cyclist to Matt's right, and slightly behind.


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## Linford (22 Jun 2012)

benb said:


> I still maintain that the diver couldn't be 100% sure there wasn't another cyclist to Matt's right, and slightly behind.


 
He would have seen them though as he traversed across the front of Matt as he approached and then entered the road. He would have made a course correction if that had been the case IMO


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## BentMikey (22 Jun 2012)

Talking about behaviour modification, I bet that driver had no idea at all he was on camera.

I've often seen drivers visibly back off after I've reached around to the rear view camera and pretended to adjust it, whilst apparently ignoring them myself.


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## gambatte (22 Jun 2012)

Linford said:


> He would have seen them though as he traversed across the front of Matt as he approached and then entered the road. He would have made a course correction if that had been the case IMO


Whether or not, still very poor practice.
I know I've been in the situation where I've seen something only on the second or third glance. Much better to be driving/riding where you're supposed to be.


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## mr_hippo (22 Jun 2012)

benb said:


> I still maintain that the diver couldn't be 100% sure there wasn't another cyclist to Matt's right, and slightly behind.


If there was a cyclist to Matt`s right and slightly behind - he would have been on the pavement! If you meant further down that side road, why not say that? If you are cycling and I am making a big assumption here that you do ride a bike, have you ever made a course correction when you have spotted, almost too late, a pothole, twig, plastic bag, etc? Look carefully again at the video and the car''s passenger door mirror, can you see the reflection of an alien with his phaser on stun?


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## BentMikey (22 Jun 2012)

Right != left, mr_hippo.


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## lejogger (22 Jun 2012)

Interestingly enough, on Wednesday night I was cycling home thinking about this thread and witnessed two motorists cut corners in the space of less than a mile.
On a main road, both drivers travelling towards me, both indicating right and both performing dangerous manouvres cutting in front of me down side roads because they didn't want to wait for me to clear the junction.
The second could have been horriffic. He didn't so much cut the corner as simply took the corner at speed in completely the wrong lane with a totally blind view of what was approaching... which was another car. He had to swerve wildly to the left to get past. It's a good job the approaching car was slowing for the junction as they both would have been toast. All because he didn't want to wait an extra 3-4 seconds for me to get past.
The point is that we can all get a bit lazy or casual with our driving or riding technique, and even in this example which was far worse than what Matthew witnessed there was no real harm done to anyone... but the whole point of the white lines is to control the safety of your road position and if you don't adhere to the laws of the road, you're always going to be held liable for any consequences, whether you think you have a clear line of sight or not. If a pedestrian had run out into the road beyond the junction, completely unpredictably, evidence that showed a cut corner would always implicate the driver even if taking the corner properly would have yielded the same consequence.

A cut corner is an indication of attitude. A motorist or cyclist who cuts the corner of a junction clearly doesn't have the correct thought process in their head. They're not approaching with making a safe legal manouvre in mind, or with concerns of other road users or pedestrians. They're purely thinking of themselves, and how they can get through the junction as easily as they can with regards to not losing speed or turning too sharply. It's not the worst crime in the world, and for the most part there won't be any consequences. We all take risks, it's part of human nature, but that doesn't make it right or excusable. There's no defence for any of the actions of the motorist in Matthew's clip.We can all agree that the initial offence didn't make much of a mark on the seriousness scale in which case Matthew's actions can be likened to a nit-picking busy body. It's like shouting for a penalty in a game of football when you see a bit of pushing or shirt pulling. It happens all the time, everyone does it to everyone else so why should you complain about it? Well because it's against the rules. If Matthew wants to take offence at somebody doing something wrong that's entirely his prerogative regardless of how serious the offence. He also as we've previously discussed didn't remotely do enough to warrant the over-reaction by the motorist.

As I've already said, I've been critical of Matthew's riding in the past, and he clearly (like a lot of us) still has a lot to learn, but on this occasion I'll back him to the hilt.


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## Peowpeowpeowlasers (22 Jun 2012)

Linford said:


> He would have seen them though as he traversed across the front of Matt as he approached and then entered the road. He would have made a course correction if that had been the case IMO


 
What, like this guy?



The driver in Matthew's clip didn't cut the corner because it was safe to do so, he cut the corner because he couldn't be bothered to wait for the Ford Galaxy to pass. In other words, he was rushing and motorists in a rush invariably make presumptions based on a lack of information - ie, the presumption that there's nothing coming the other way. There's a metal fence on the corner and 6 feet or so of cyclist, he isn't Superman, is he?

There's absolutely nothing to indicate that the motorist was driving safely. Had he been on a driving test, he'd have failed. A bored traffic officer coming up the side road would have pulled him and had a word.


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## benb (22 Jun 2012)

mr_hippo said:


> If there was a cyclist to Matt`s right and slightly behind - he would have been on the pavement! If you meant further down that side road, why not say that? If you are cycling and I am making a big assumption here that you do ride a bike, have you ever made a course correction when you have spotted, almost too late, a pothole, twig, plastic bag, etc? Look carefully again at the video and the car''s passenger door mirror, can you see the reflection of an alien with his phaser on stun?


 
His right. As in, coming up to the junction in a position to turn right.


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## PK99 (22 Jun 2012)

lejogger said:


> As I've already said, I've been critical of Matthew's riding in the past, and he clearly (like a lot of us) still has a lot to learn, but on this occasion I'll back him to the hilt.


 
there was nothing wrong with his riding, but please, for his own safety, do not encourage him to continue making gobby snide comments to other road users - sooner or later he will come up against a real thug.


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## Linford (22 Jun 2012)

lejogger said:


> Interestingly enough, on Wednesday night I was cycling home thinking about this thread and witnessed two motorists cut corners in the space of less than a mile.
> On a main road, both drivers travelling towards me, both indicating right and both performing dangerous manouvres cutting in front of me down side roads because they didn't want to wait for me to clear the junction.
> The second could have been horriffic. He didn't so much cut the corner as simply took the corner at speed in completely the wrong lane with a totally blind view of what was approaching... which was another car. He had to swerve wildly to the left to get past. It's a good job the approaching car was slowing for the junction as they both would have been toast. All because he didn't want to wait an extra 3-4 seconds for me to get past.
> The point is that we can all get a bit lazy or casual with our driving or riding technique, and even in this example which was far worse than what Matthew witnessed there was no real harm done to anyone... but the whole point of the white lines is to control the safety of your road position and if you don't adhere to the laws of the road, you're always going to be held liable for any consequences, whether you think you have a clear line of sight or not. If a pedestrian had run out into the road beyond the junction, completely unpredictably, evidence that showed a cut corner would always implicate the driver even if taking the corner properly would have yielded the same consequence.
> ...


 

We can all quote examples though. Yesterday, my OH behind the wheel, a commuter cycclist rides up the inside of us as we are going through a set of lights, get to a next set and turning right, we queue behind 2 cars and wait as traffic is coming the other way, rather than him queueing behind us on a green light, he rides up the LHS of the line, cuts in front ot the lead car, then forces a driver coming the other way to jump on the brakes as he cuts across in front of him to get into the side road. This wasn't a 'well he cut a corner and took a chance, this was he ignored the priority of the rest ofthe traffic, rode into their blind spots, and then forced other vehicles to take emergency action to avoid runing him over. He looked early 40's so old enough to know better.


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## benb (22 Jun 2012)

Linford said:


> We can all quote examples though. Yesterday, my OH behind the wheel, a commuter cycclist rides up the inside of us as we are going through a set of lights, get to a next set and turning right, we queue behind 2 cars and wait as traffic is coming the other way, rather than him queueing behind us on a green light, he rides up the LHS of the line, cuts in front ot the lead car, then forces a driver coming the other way to jump on the brakes as he cuts across in front of him to get into the side road. This wasn't a 'well he cut a corner and took a chance, this was he ignored the priority of the rest ofthe traffic, rode into their blind spots, and then forced other vehicles to take emergency action to avoid runing him over. He looked early 40's so old enough to know better.


 
You should have threatened to wrap his bike up his nose!


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## lejogger (22 Jun 2012)

PK99 said:


> there was nothing wrong with his riding, but please, for his own safety, do not encourage him to continue making gobby snide comments to other road users - sooner or later he will come up against a real thug.


 I've no intention of encouraging him to be gobby or make snide comments - and I understand your concerns. As I've posted previously in the thread, I most certainly do not believe that his "see ya" comment was helpful in the slightest - i'd like to make that clear, but I also believe that from the moment the motorist decided to stop and engage there was nothing Matthew could have said or done to pacify him any more than he did, and what he did to cause the motorist to stop i.e. a headshake and a mutter, was no different to anything most of us would have done in that situation.
So yes, I completely agree that he needs to help himself a bit more in these situations, but I believe the attitude/condition of the motorist made the entire episode almost impossible to avoid once the initial confrontation took place.


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## Linford (22 Jun 2012)

benb said:


> You should have threatened to wrap his bike up his nose!


 
The driver who was forced to brake didn't look very happy, but he looked like he had a life and didn't want to waste it moaning about this selfish and arrogant riders actions. If he was on a motorbike with a numberplate, he would not have ridden in thsi way - and then we go back to behaviour modification and risk compensation....


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## mr_hippo (22 Jun 2012)

benb said:


> His right. As in, coming up to the junction in a position to turn right.


In the clip was Matt moving? No! His back was to the pavement so anyone behind him would be on the pavement.


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## lejogger (22 Jun 2012)

Linford said:


> We can all quote examples though. Yesterday, my OH behind the wheel, a commuter cycclist rides up the inside of us as we are going through a set of lights, get to a next set and turning right, we queue behind 2 cars and wait as traffic is coming the other way, rather than him queueing behind us on a green light, he rides up the LHS of the line, cuts in front ot the lead car, then forces a driver coming the other way to jump on the brakes as he cuts across in front of him to get into the side road. This wasn't a 'well he cut a corner and took a chance, this was he ignored the priority of the rest ofthe traffic, rode into their blind spots, and then forced other vehicles to take emergency action to avoid runing him over. He looked early 40's so old enough to know better.


 We can... clearly a poor piece of riding, I'm sure we'd all agree with that. 
What we don't seem to all agree on though is the lack of care and consideration shown by anyone who would cut a corner as per Matthew's clip. There's a split on whether it's acceptable or not based on the severity or not of the consequences of the actions. My post was trying to explain why I believe a cut corner always puts you in the wrong - whether serious or not - due to the attitude you must have to perform it.


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## Scoosh (22 Jun 2012)

<dons Mods Hat>

We've probably reached saturation point now. Further posting is unlikely to add anything to the discussion.

Move along, please !


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## benb (22 Jun 2012)

mr_hippo said:


> In the clip was Matt moving? No! His back was to the pavement so anyone behind him would be on the pavement.


 
I don't understand. I'm talking about another cyclist coming up from behind and to Matt's right, positioned to turn right at the junction.


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## benb (22 Jun 2012)

Scoosh said:


> <dons Mods Hat>
> 
> We've probably reached saturation point now. Further posting is unlikely to add anything to the discussion.
> 
> Move along, please !


 
Sorry, posted mine before reading this. I'll leave it there.


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## BentMikey (22 Jun 2012)

Scoosh said:


> <dons Mods Hat>
> 
> We've probably reached saturation point now. Further posting is unlikely to add anything to the discussion.
> 
> Move along, please !


 
Honestly, what is the point in moderation like this? It's pointless and unfair to the posters. Leave it off until it actually gets nasty.


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## fossyant (22 Jun 2012)

Why does it have to get nasty ? We've already had a couple of you calling each other t*ts ?

God commuting is like P&L was - full of angry people.


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## Andrew_P (22 Jun 2012)

fossyant said:


> Why does it have to get nasty ? We've already had a couple of you calling each other t*ts ?
> 
> God commuting is like P&L was - full of angry people.


 Show us yer angry face Fossy, may help Matthew ward off der bullies on the road!


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## Scoosh (22 Jun 2012)

BentMikey said:


> Honestly, what is the point in moderation like this? It's pointless and unfair to the posters. Leave it off until it actually gets nasty.





Scoosh said:


> <dons Mods Hat>
> 
> *We've probably reached saturation point now.* *Further posting is unlikely to add anything to the discussion*.
> 
> Move along, please !


That is why.

Waiting "until it actually gets nasty" is too late.

Move along - NOW !


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## lejogger (22 Jun 2012)

Linford said:


> The driver who was forced to brake didn't look very happy, but he looked like he had a life and didn't want to waste it moaning about this selfish and arrogant riders actions. If he was on a motorbike with a numberplate, he would not have ridden in thsi way - and then we go back to behaviour modification and risk compensation....


 We're not really comparing like for like. In your example there was a driver who had to take evasive action because of the cyclist. No one had to take any evasive action in Matthew's clip. For it to be the same, the cyclist would have had to witness the driver looking angry at his actions, turn his bike around to chase him down before berating him for daring to be affronted by his poor cycling.


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## lejogger (22 Jun 2012)

Scoosh said:


> <dons Mods Hat>
> 
> We've probably reached saturation point now. Further posting is unlikely to add anything to the discussion.
> 
> Move along, please !


 Apologies... I was half way through a post, then had to go out to buy the office cakes because it's my birthday (never understood that one) then only saw your request to close the thread subsequently.
Agree completely. Those left still debating are unlikely to change any opinions at this stage.


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## BentMikey (22 Jun 2012)

Actually, there's been a bunch of interesting posts that brought up new and sometimes off topic information in the last few pages. This really isn't the place to be considering closing the topic.


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## Scoosh (22 Jun 2012)

If you wish to consider off topic information - start a new thread.

This _is_ the place/time to consider closing the topic - not when/if it gets nasty.


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## Boris Bajic (22 Jun 2012)

Please wait until everyone agrees with me and then close the thread before they have time to change their minds.

Only 99% of the cycling public to go, then you can lock it with my blessings!

I write this in the hope that it will add constructively to the debate, but I fear my arrow has fallen wide of the target.

Again.


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## BentMikey (22 Jun 2012)

Scoosh said:


> If you wish to consider off topic information - start a new thread.
> 
> This _is_ the place/time to consider closing the topic - not when/if it gets nasty.


 
You think you can stop topics from wandering? Good luck with that.


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## Fnaar (22 Jun 2012)

Ian Cooper said:


> As soon as he offered to 'wrap the bike up your nose' he committed an assault.



And a grammatical faux pas. Wrap the bike around, perhaps, or ram up, maybe. But both still physically difficult. Is there a caption competition for this one?
-----------------------------------
Sent mobile phone stylee


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## Nigel-YZ1 (22 Jun 2012)

lejogger said:


> Apologies... I was half way through a post, then had to go out to buy the office cakes because it's my birthday (never understood that one) then only saw your request to close the thread subsequently.
> Agree completely. Those left still debating are unlikely to change any opinions at this stage.


 
Happy Birthday!


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## BSRU (22 Jun 2012)

lejogger said:


> had to go out to buy the office cakes because it's my birthday (never understood that one)


 
They do that where I work now but previously it would be down the pub after work and everyone would buy the birthday boy/girl a drink


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## lejogger (22 Jun 2012)

Nigel-YZ1 said:


> Happy Birthday!


 Thanks!!


BSRU said:


> They do that where I work now but previously it would be down the pub after work and everyone would buy the birthday boy/girl a drink


 This seems like a much better idea! We do that sometimes too, but my son awaits me at the other end of the M6 tonight so I'm spending the evening in the car!

Incidentally, with all the talk of this thread going off topic, I didn't actually think we had...

...until now


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## Matthew_T (22 Jun 2012)

I have stated twice before that I fully understand the comments given on this incident and I am happy for it to stop now (I am not getting involved anymore). I have reported the incident to the police and I am happy with their response. I am not awaiting for their reply with what action is going to be taken but the police officer I spoke to said that she would show the sargent the video and get his opinion on what action is to be taken. She said that she would get back to me within 30 days (even though I told her I was going on holiday from 11th to the 25th next month.

It is never nice to see something become nasty so lets not add to the current list of nasty threads in commuting.


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## 2wd (22 Jun 2012)

Mmmm....... Cake


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