# Low Level races?



## Thompson (10 Jul 2013)

I'm wanting to start racing and I was told that I should start with some low level races. I'm just ondering where I can find these races and how to enter? Also, what defines a low level race? I'm going to enter a local 9 mile time trial as my first race, but it isn't a proper offical one. Like, you don't need a license to enter.

Basically, what type of racing license do you think is best? And anything anyone knows about 'low-level' races would be helpful.

Thanks, Thompson


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## zizou (10 Jul 2013)

The easiest (and most sensible) thing to do is join a club if you are not already a member of one. This will help with the skills that are needed plus the bigger clubs will often also do APR races (basically handicap racing with groups set off at different times) as training, this is the lowest level of a semi organised race. They will also run club time trials too. You wont need a racing license for either of the things.

In terms of open entry events then for a beginner go with a silver one - that will be a provisional race license so if you win a race you wont get the points, however you will be allowed to enter races, be covered for insurance etc. Its cheaper doing it this way and seeing if racing is for you before getting a full license.

You could also try a Go-Ride race i dont think you need a license for that - however the provision of these events is a bit patchy, some parts of the country have lots of them some have virtually none.


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## Buddfox (11 Jul 2013)

Once you're a member of British Cycling, get hold of the event calendar (not sure if it's on the website, they send you a quarterly guide in the post once you join) and you can find the events happening near to where you are. But do join a club first and get some experience riding in a group etc. it will benefit not just you but also avoids crashes with other riders.


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## oldroadman (11 Jul 2013)

Buddfox said:


> Once you're a member of British Cycling, get hold of the event calendar (not sure if it's on the website, they send you a quarterly guide in the post once you join) and you can find the events happening near to where you are. But do join a club first and get some experience riding in a group etc. it will benefit not just you but also avoids crashes with other riders.


 
+1. You can't just dive in (seriously a lack of skills will make you a menace to yourself and everyone else), join a decent club and learn first. It will pay off and make the first race experience much more rewarding.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (11 Jul 2013)

oldroadman said:


> +1. You can't just dive in (seriously a lack of skills will make you a menace to yourself and everyone else), join a decent club and learn first. It will pay off and make the first race experience much more rewarding.


I did with no ill effect.


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## Rob3rt (11 Jul 2013)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> I did with no ill effect.


 

It is certainly not advisable to just "jump in".


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (11 Jul 2013)

Rob3rt said:


> It is certainly not advisable to just "jump in".


But doable


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## Rob3rt (11 Jul 2013)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> But doable


 
You can do it, there is no mechanism to stop you, but it is not advisable and the very fact that there is no mechanism to stop people jumping in with zero experience of anything even remotely similar is a large contributing factor to the number of stackings in Cat 4 races.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (11 Jul 2013)

Rob3rt said:


> You can do it, there is no mechanism to stop you,


There isn't, and that to a certain point is a problem - but not for every new racer signing on.



> but it is not advisable


By whom?



> and the very fact that there is no mechanism to stop people jumping in with zero experience of anything even remotely similar


How can you gain race experience without racing? A sunday club ride really isn't the same thing.



> is a large contributing factor to the number of stackings in Cat 4 races.


That's really a lack of common sense and sprinting for 39th position kind of stupidity that comes along with that.


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## Rob3rt (11 Jul 2013)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> There isn't, and that to a certain point is a problem - *but not for every new racer signing on*.


 
Of course, you will always get some that are naturally good, but many are not. Those that are not is a significant number. The problem is not just for the new racer either, it is for those around them.



> By whom?


 
Those who value the safety of fellow racers, old and new.



> How can you gain race experience without racing? A sunday club ride really isn't the same thing.


 
I didn't say race experience, I said people lacking in experience of anything *remotely similar*, i.e. chaingangs and other training rides where speed skills are developed.



> That's really a lack of common sense and sprinting for 39th position kind of stupidity that comes along with that.


 

That is also a contributor.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (11 Jul 2013)

Rob3rt said:


> Of course, you will always get some that are naturally good, but many are not. Those that are not is a significant number. The problem is not just for the new racer either, it is for those around them.


The problem is a general one. Experienced riders cause pile-ups too.



> Those who value the safety of fellow racers, old and new.


I value my own safety too. If I don't want to take the risks associated with racing - nobody is forcing me to sign on.



> I didn't say race experience, I said people lacking in experience of anything *remotely similar*, i.e. chaingangs and other training rides where speed skills are developed.


I'd done relatively little of either before signing on for the first time. I don't get this "can't dive right in" nonsense. I have no problem getting groups together for rides these days, I assume i'm doing something right overall..

With regards to the OP though: Probably advisable to not jump right in. To say it can't be done though, is slightly out of touch.


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## oldroadman (11 Jul 2013)

Mr TMH is a very fortunate person to have managed to acquire the skills necessary so quickly. However, learning to ride properly is best done in a safer situation than just "diving in" (a quote) because there's a good chance of doing just that, only the dive will end up with a slide along a less forgiving surface than water. If anyone wants to damage themselves that's fine, just do it solo and don't involve other people, show them some respect by being humble enough to realise that learning is a graduated process. I've seen enough lower category races in the last few years to believe that there are a number of fit people who "dive in" without any idea of peloton protocol and generally how to ride skillfully, although they may have the physical ability to roll round, there is a lot more to racing than that.


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## palinurus (11 Jul 2013)

Time trialling- turn up on a bike (almost any bike will do) at your local club's evening 10, pay a couple of quid and see how you like it, then hang around the clubhouse and drink tea. Even if you don't like it much it is a good way to find out what other races are on and who is riding what. Local club websites will often have details of where and when their events are held.

Road racing- somewhat harder to get started but in some areas there are local leagues where there might be a training/coaching session before the season or similar. It helps to join a club, ride with others, find out who races and ask around. Those riders who race may have their own fast club run/ chain gang organised.

Cyclocross- pretty easy to get started (but difficult to get good) and generally welcoming to newcomers and largely hopeless riders like me, you can ride a mountain bike if you don't have a cross bike or some other road-type bike with clearance for a fattish tyre. Some areas have summer leagues but in most places you'll have to wait until September/ October when the season starts. Usually entry on line, you'll pay extra if you don't have a racing license but having one isn't necessary to get started.


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## palinurus (11 Jul 2013)

Even proper time trials don't require a license. You can send off your entry and ride alongside pro cyclists and fat old blokes. The hardest part about getting started is learning how to fill in the CTT form. The usual way to find out more is by riding club events, if you get the bug you'll want to take if further and find out more.

Good luck with that 9 mile event. Don't forget to post your time on here.


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## palinurus (11 Jul 2013)

Well, not really fat old blokes. Comparatively so perhaps.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (11 Jul 2013)

oldroadman said:


> Mr TMH is a very fortunate person to have managed to acquire the skills necessary so quickly.


I am in no way implying that I'm an expert of course 



> However, learning to ride properly is best done in a safer situation than just "diving in" (a quote) because there's a good chance of doing just that, only the dive will end up with a slide along a less forgiving surface than water.


FWIW I agree, even though my experience thus far is the polar opposite.



> If anyone wants to damage themselves that's fine, just do it solo and don't involve other people, show them some respect by being humble enough to realise that* learning is a graduated process.*


Never really stops though,cycling or otherwise.



> I've seen enough lower category races in the last few years to believe that there are a number of fit people who "dive in" without any idea of peloton protocol and generally how to ride skillfully, although they may have the physical ability to roll round, there is a lot more to racing than that.


Absolutely. Have seen it myself.


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## oldroadman (11 Jul 2013)

palinurus said:


> Well, not really fat old blokes. Comparatively so perhaps.


 Qualified on both counts!


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## DCLane (12 Jul 2013)

Having spent nearly a year group riding - and kept being told "you should be racing" by club members - I've entered this on 24th August as my first toe-dip into the water: https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/events/details/96648/Albarosa-Circuit-Races---York-

I've a Silver BC licence, so be _very_ careful people ...


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## Herzog (13 Jul 2013)

DCLane said:


> Having spent nearly a year group riding - and kept being told "you should be racing" by club members - I've entered this on 24th August as my first toe-dip into the water: https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/events/details/96648/Albarosa-Circuit-Races---York-
> 
> I've a Silver BC licence, so be _very_ careful people ...


 

Great, you won't regret it. I think you've done it the right way round (for your body & bike...and others!) as there is no substitute for a period of learning how to ride in a group before racing.

Good luck!


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## Monsieur Remings (11 Sep 2013)

As a Cat 4 finishing his first season, to any newcomers to this thread, listen to oldroadman and Robert and FFS get some experience in. Most circuits also offer training nights as a further stepping stone but learning group riding skills is essential, and I'm sorry to those who don't think it is, but you're wrong. No, racing is not the same as a club ride and of course the best way to become experienced at racing is to race but there are increasing anxieties at higher levels than Category 3/4 regarding those who have all the fitness credentials but don't know how to ride in a group. Is the best place to learn how to draft on the circuit during a race? I don't think so...and yet many of the E/1/2 riders have increasing worries regarding those coming from say a Tri background who may be very fit and very powerful but have never drafted another rider, let alone rode in a group, leading to unnecessary crashes...

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCwQFjAA&url=http://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/group-riding-skills-gap-making-uk-road-racing-dangerous-37356/&ei=4-swUqDuFIO47AbC8oC4BQ&usg=AFQjCNFghJpeb9O5IX3i9Ni8mQqFy2XFRw&sig2=xQQvnm6pJQrYCb8fbKMcOQ

Of my 12 starts this year, on all but 3 occasions were there NOT crashes (some from the other 9 however, were of a serious nature in terms of damage to person/bike).


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## Dusty Bin (11 Sep 2013)

There have been crashes for as long as there have been races. In my opinion, you can go on all the training events you like, you can learn your 'drafting skills', your 'group riding skills' and all of that stuff. But there is nothing - absolutely nothing - that you can learn from those exercises which will prepare you for your first bunch race - and even that pre-supposes that you will have the fitness to stay in the bunch long enough to actually lean something. And even if you do stay with the bunch and learn all this stuff (which isn't actually that difficult, tbh, most of it is common sense) you might still crash. Bunch crashes are usually caused by momentary lapses of concentration, and if that happens, then your knowledge of riding etiquette (or lack of it) is largely irrelevant whichever way you look at it. It's the same reason why you still get crashes regularly in the pro peloton - and you would hope their group riding skills are already well-developed.

Put it another way - people with full driving licences still manage to crash into each other in cars, despite (you would hope) their overwhelming desire not to.

That's not to say that learning the skills is not helpful - it certainly won't do any harm - but knowing them won't guarantee you a safe race and it won't guarantee that an experienced rider won't take you out on the last corner. So, you might as well do what TMHNET said earlier, and just get on with it.


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## Monsieur Remings (12 Sep 2013)

Dusty Bin said:


> There have been crashes for as long as there have been races. In my opinion, you can go on all the training events you like, you can learn your 'drafting skills', your 'group riding skills' and all of that stuff. But there is nothing - absolutely nothing - that you can learn from those exercises which will prepare you for your first bunch race - and even that pre-supposes that you will have the fitness to stay in the bunch long enough to actually lean something. And even if you do stay with the bunch and learn all this stuff (which isn't actually that difficult, tbh, most of it is common sense) you might still crash. Bunch crashes are usually caused by momentary lapses of concentration, and if that happens, then your knowledge of riding etiquette (or lack of it) is largely irrelevant whichever way you look at it. It's the same reason why you still get crashes regularly in the pro peloton - and you would hope their group riding skills are already well-developed.
> 
> *Put it another way - people with full driving licences still manage to crash into each other in cars, despite (you would hope) their overwhelming desire not to.*
> 
> That's not to say that learning the skills is not helpful - it certainly won't do any harm - but knowing them won't guarantee you a safe race and it won't guarantee that an experienced rider won't take you out on the last corner. So, you might as well do what TMHNET said earlier, and just get on with it.



So by the same token we should just hand out driving licenses to anyone who just wants to 'get on with it'?


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## Dusty Bin (12 Sep 2013)

Monsieur Remings said:


> So by the same token we should just hand out driving licenses to anyone who just wants to 'get on with it'?



No, you missed the point - we should hand out driving licences to anyone who meets the required DSA standards, same as we do now. The point I'm making is that training makes little or no difference to our ability to cause (or be involved in) accidents. 'Human error' is a very difficult thing to legislate against.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (12 Sep 2013)

Dusty Bin said:


> No, you missed the point - we should hand out driving licences to anyone who meets the required DSA standards, same as we do now. The point I'm making is that training makes little or no difference to our ability to cause (or be involved in) accidents. 'Human error' is a very difficult thing to legislate against.


Indeed. Licence nor training would have prevented my concussion,whiplash and road last picked up last night

Nor would it have prevented my wrecked helmet 

ps: the least experienced of our trio who was on the front - didn't go down but didn't realise we'd crashed until my head hit the road.

Talk about licences,training and experience all you want, nothing more than blowing smoke.


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## Monsieur Remings (12 Sep 2013)

I think you're seeing this in very black and white terms which is not, IMO, the way to approach this...

Effectively what TMHNET is saying above is that because he crashed, no amount of training would have made a difference to anyone and that it's all a waste of time because of his own experience. Your own position Dusty Bin, also seems to be as absolute.

Whilst I agree that to crash is human error and that to avoid human error 100% is impossible, what isn't impossible is to gain some group riding experience beforehand...nothing more than that. And I cannot see how anyone would say the opposite? Would riding in a club beforehand actually make things worse or better? Most people know the answer is 'better.' Your argument rests solely on the premise that because accidents can't be avoided 100% it's pointless making any effort at all to try and reduce/prevent their occurrence which is plain ridiculous.

And I'm not missing the point with the driving license at all; again if human error can't be avoided or 'legislated against' then would you propose handing out driving licenses to anyone? The answer you gave is no and so there is a part of your argument that does include adherence to some standard, so why not the same for riding in a bike race? Surely you'd wish to give yourself the best chance of avoiding a crash?


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (12 Sep 2013)

Monsieur Remings said:


> I think you're seeing this in very black and white terms which is not, IMO, the way to approach this...


What do you suggest? Some more making stuff up as you go and hoping it sticks?



> Effectively what TMHNET is saying above is that because he crashed, no amount of training would have made a difference to anyone and that it's all a waste of time because of his own experience. Your own position Dusty Bin, also seems to be as absolute.


No I didn't say that.



> Whilst I agree that to crash is human error and that to avoid human error 100% is impossible, what isn't impossible is to gain some group riding experience beforehand...nothing more than that. And I cannot see how anyone would say the opposite?


A crash is always human error?



> Would riding in a club beforehand actually make things worse or better? Most people know the answer is 'better.' Your argument rests solely on the premise that because accidents can't be avoided 100% it's pointless making any effort at all to try and reduce/prevent their occurrence which is plain ridiculous.


You're doing a Cunobelin: stop reading things selectively and forging a weak argument from that.




> And I'm not missing the point with the driving license at all; again if human error can't be avoided or 'legislated against' then would you propose handing out driving licenses to anyone? The answer you gave is no and so there is a part of your argument that does include adherence to some standard, so why not the same for riding in a bike race? Surely you'd wish to give yourself the best chance of avoiding a crash?


I hold many licence types for road vehicles or otherwise. My experience of those vehicles is irrelevant if the cause of an accident - was not me.

I also hold a race licence with Cycling Ireland - This did not prevent last nights crash. My experience could not have prevented last nights crash. Training could not have prevented last nights crash.

The guy I can over(whilst travelling arse over tit) Holds a CI race licence, is a Commisaire Driver for certain races - has years of experience and training. None of these could have prevented last nights crash.

The relatively inexperienced female on the front - ^ has a CI non-comp licence and her first paceline ride was last night. None of these contributed nor prevented the crash.

See what I'm saying? If you think a bit of plastic anyone can apply for(test required or otherwise) somehow has the magical ability to prevent accidents/crashes - or indeed if riding to a cafe every sunday with a club group will prevent anything - you need to take a step back or perhaps find another sport.


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## Rob3rt (12 Sep 2013)

Nice try countdown!


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (12 Sep 2013)

Rob3rt said:


> Nice try countdown!


I don't know what you mean


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## Dusty Bin (12 Sep 2013)

Monsieur Remings said:


> Whilst I agree that to crash is human error and that to avoid human error 100% is impossible, what isn't impossible is to gain some group riding experience beforehand...nothing more than that. And I cannot see how anyone would say the opposite?



I never said the opposite. Skills are good to have, particularly from a confidence point of view - just don't expect them to make much - if any - difference in a race.



Monsieur Remings said:


> Would riding in a club beforehand actually make things worse or better? Most people know the answer is 'better.' Your argument rests solely on the premise that because accidents can't be avoided 100% it's pointless making any effort at all to try and reduce/prevent their occurrence which is plain ridiculous.



I'm all for preventing accidents and minimising risk. What I don't accept is that teaching someone how to ride in a group on a club run will have any bearing on what they do in a race. It certainly doesn't seem to be working for the pros, who still crash almost routinely. And if it doesn't work for them, what chance have the rest of us got?



Monsieur Remings said:


> And I'm not missing the point with the driving license at all; again if human error can't be avoided or 'legislated against' then would you propose handing out driving licenses to anyone? The answer you gave is no and so there is a part of your argument that does include adherence to some standard, so why not the same for riding in a bike race? Surely you'd wish to give yourself the best chance of avoiding a crash?



DSA focuses on operating a car safely and operating it in traffic safely. However, put 25 cars on the starting grid at Silverstone (all with qualified MSA/FIA licence-holding drivers) and see what happens.


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## VamP (12 Sep 2013)

Dusty Bin said:


> I'm all for preventing accidents and minimising risk. What I don't accept is that teaching someone how to ride in a group on a club run will have *any bearing on what they do in a race*. It certainly doesn't seem to be working for the pros, who still crash almost routinely. And if it doesn't work for them, what chance have the rest of us got?


 
It might stop them being a random liability? You know; the obvious stuff...


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (12 Sep 2013)

VamP said:


> It might stop them being a random liability? You know; the obvious stuff...


Could say the exact same thing about experienced riders.


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## Rob3rt (12 Sep 2013)

A swing and a miss...


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## VamP (12 Sep 2013)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Could say the exact same thing about experienced riders.


 

Of course you could, but I am talking about the really stupid things people do sometimes. Like standing up on climbs without accelerating. You know, the kind of mistakes that experienced riders don't make


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## Monsieur Remings (12 Sep 2013)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> What do you suggest? Some more making stuff up as you go and hoping it sticks?
> 
> 
> No I didn't say that.
> ...



No, you're the one reading things that aren't there. Where have I said that learning to ride in a group and working on these skills mean that you are 100% not going to be involved in a crash? I haven't said that but I personally would prefer racing around those who understand basic things like the elastic effect at the rear of the bunch (same as in a club ride), handling a bike/keeping your line round corners with other riders in proximity etc

And no, you didn't say word for word what I said you did, but it's there by implication.


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## Monsieur Remings (12 Sep 2013)

Dusty Bin said:


> I never said the opposite. Skills are good to have, particularly from a confidence point of view - just don't expect them to make much - if any - difference in a race.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If it doesn't work for the pros then you obviously feel there's no hope at all, in which case, don't race.

What you're suggesting alternatively however is for newcomers not to bother at all with trying to minimise/reduce the risk because it's not 100% solid that you won't crash anyway, which I think is wrong and sends out entirely the wrong message. What do you make of the link I give, from the opinions of those at the higher end of the domestic racing scene?


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## zanda (12 Sep 2013)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> That's really a lack of common sense and sprinting for 39th position kind of stupidity that comes along with that.



i agree with everythin u have said so far it pretty much makes scence. but as for sprinting for 39 position being stupid??? i think not. if someone is willing to give their all, even if it is for 39th then so what??? how in the hell does that constitute stupidity. im sorry but i think ur comment is out of order. i would sprint for 100th place if that ment i gained a place or 2 to improve on my last event. i think u need to cum down to earth a little, so u may be good at events an finish in a position worthy of sprinting for (what ever the hell that may be in ur rule book) what about people like us who are just trying their best at each even trying to improve by any small amount. that isnt stupidity is hard work an determination an does not deserve ridicule but prais


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (12 Sep 2013)

zanda said:


> i agree with everythin u have said so far it pretty much makes scence. but as for sprinting for 39 position being stupid??? i think not. if someone is willing to give their all, even if it is for 39th then so what??? how in the hell does that constitute stupidity. im sorry but i think ur comment is out of order. i would sprint for 100th place if that ment i gained a place or 2 to improve on my last event. i think u need to cum down to earth a little, so u may be good at events an finish in a position worthy of sprinting for (what ever the hell that may be in ur rule book) what about people like us who are just trying their best at each even trying to improve by any small amount. that isnt stupidity is hard work an determination an does not deserve ridicule but prais


I'm not even going to attempt translating this.


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## Rob3rt (12 Sep 2013)

zanda said:


> i agree with everythin u have said so far it pretty much makes scence. but as for sprinting for 39 position being stupid??? i think not. if someone is willing to give their all, even if it is for 39th then so what??? how in the hell does that constitute stupidity. im sorry but i think ur comment is out of order. i would sprint for 100th place if that ment i gained a place or 2 to improve on my last event. i think u need to cum down to earth a little, so u may be good at events an finish in a position worthy of sprinting for (what ever the hell that may be in ur rule book) what about people like us who are just trying their best at each even trying to improve by any small amount. that isnt stupidity is hard work an determination an does not deserve ridicule but prais



LMFAO. That was not only a swing and a miss, but you spun all the way round and fell on your arse on the plate! Get up and brush yourself down, you have 2 swings left!


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## VamP (12 Sep 2013)

That's gotta be a wind up!


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## Sittingduck (12 Sep 2013)

Where's that frickin popcorn smiley...


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## Dusty Bin (12 Sep 2013)

VamP said:


> It might stop them being a random liability? You know; the obvious stuff...



They key word there is 'random' - you can't stop anyone being a random liability. Like I said earlier - all that is required is a momentary lapse of concentration. I've had them myself. Anyone that says they haven't is probably lying.


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## Dusty Bin (12 Sep 2013)

Monsieur Remings said:


> If it doesn't work for the pros then you obviously feel there's no hope at all, in which case, don't race.



I'm fine with the risks - I'm not the one complaining about them 



Monsieur Remings said:


> What you're suggesting alternatively however is for newcomers not to bother at all with trying to minimise/reduce the risk because it's not 100% solid that you won't crash anyway, which I think is wrong and sends out entirely the wrong message. What do you make of the link I give, from the opinions of those at the higher end of the domestic racing scene?



I think you're misquoting me again. I never said don't bother. The skills are good to have. What I did say however (which is the bit you missed, I think) is that none of that will guarantee you a safe race.

As for the link - there's nothing new in there.


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## VamP (12 Sep 2013)

Dusty Bin said:


> They key word there is 'random' - *you can't stop anyone being a random liability*. Like I said earlier - all that is required is a momentary lapse of concentration. I've had them myself. Anyone that says they haven't is probably lying.


 

Of course you can. People are random in their riding when they don't realise this poses a hazard. It's the sort of ignorance that gets eliminated with experience. I am not talking about momentary lapses but about not being aware that what you are doing is dangerous.

I am not sure why we are debating this; it is obvious.


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## Dusty Bin (12 Sep 2013)

Newsflash - you are just as much of a risk to me in a race as a brand new 4th cat. It works the other way too of course - I am just as much of a risk to you in a race as a brand new 4th cat. In fact, the brand new 4th cat is probably less of a risk to me, because I will be much more aware of him. 

Racing brings out the worst in everyone. When was the last time you went out on a training ride and deliberately rode on the opposite side of the road in the face of oncoming traffic? Probably never, is my guess, because it's suicidal. I bet you've done it in a race though - I certainly have. It's a stupid thing to do, but if you are desperate to move up, you will take risks like that.


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## VamP (12 Sep 2013)

I am well aware there are risks and I accept them. That's racing. I am no stranger to road rash believe me.

That does not mean that taking reasonable steps to educating oneself about safe and unsafe practices in the bunch will not make that person a safer racer. And I do know for a fact that I feel a lot safer in E123 races than I do in 34s. A whole lot.


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## Dusty Bin (12 Sep 2013)

VamP said:


> And I do know for a fact that I feel a lot safer in E123 races than I do in 34s. A whole lot.



The next E/1/2/3 event you take part in might be completely different


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## Monsieur Remings (12 Sep 2013)

Dusty Bin said:


> I'm fine with the risks - I'm not the one complaining about them
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Okay, it's not my intention to argue with you or anyone else but I don't think anyone who does, or has advocated doing some club/group riding first has suggested that this will 'guarantee' (your choice of word) a safe race either?

As you've said yourself, nothing is 100% safe when it comes to racing.


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## montage (12 Sep 2013)

zanda said:


> i agree with everythin u have said so far it pretty much makes scence. but as for sprinting for 39 position being stupid??? i think not. if someone is willing to give their all, even if it is for 39th then so what??? *how in the hell does that constitute stupidity*. im sorry but i think ur comment is out of order. i would sprint for 100th place if that ment i gained a place or 2 to improve on my last event. i think u need to cum down to earth a little, so u may be good at events an finish in a position worthy of sprinting for (what ever the hell that may be in ur rule book) what about people like us who are just trying their best at each even trying to improve by any small amount. that isnt stupidity is hard work an determination an does not deserve ridicule but prais



puberty is going to rock your world


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## montage (12 Sep 2013)

Also saying that an experienced rider is as much of a risk as a first timer is dumb. Crashes happen due to unpreventable events, and crashes happen because of preventable events. Experience and knowledge/training greatly reduce the likelihood of preventable mistakes occurring. By logic, or even simple mathematics for those among us who suffer from lack of the former, this means that experience and knowledge both reduce the chance of crashing. To argue otherwise is completely counterintuitive to progress in the road race scene


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## Dusty Bin (12 Sep 2013)

montage said:


> Also saying that an experienced rider is as much of a risk as a first timer is dumb.



Tell that to the fellas who crashed in my local E/1/2 crit last week (or it might have been the week before, can't remember). They weren't brought down by an inexperienced chopper.



montage said:


> Crashes happen due to unpreventable events, and crashes happen because of preventable events. Experience and knowledge/training greatly reduce the likelihood of preventable mistakes occurring. By logic, or even simple mathematics for those among us who suffer from lack of the former, this means that experience and knowledge both reduce the chance of crashing. To argue otherwise is completely counterintuitive to progress in the road race scene



Take that logic and apply it to something like F1 or Moto Gp - it doesn't work. All are experienced riders/drivers who have come up through the karting, FF, F3, or other national series - they still crash and they still bring each other down. Alternatively, just watch some cycle racing on TV - are the pros still crashing? They certainly are...

An experienced rider is just as likely to cause an accident as a first timer. Nothing dumb about that - and it is supported by more evidence than you are ever likely to need. Etiquette and common sense both go out the window on the last lap or the 1k sign, regardless of the category printed on your licence. Experience and knowledge both suggest that you shouldn't ride into oncoming traffic, but we have seen two deaths this year when experienced/competent riders did exactly that.


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## montage (13 Sep 2013)

Dusty Bin said:


> Tell that to the fellas who crashed in my local E/1/2 crit last week (or it might have been the week before, can't remember). They weren't brought down by an inexperienced chopper.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Take your F1 and Moto Gp example, except this time yourself, everybody in this thread and myself are also joining in the F1 and Moto races alongside the pros (assuming there is a lack of motor racing expertise with the average person). Guess what will happen...more crashes. The logic applies perfectly.

Yes crashes still happen even with those at the top of the game, but we're talking about taking a step towards reducing the risk, not eliminating the impossible.


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## Rob3rt (13 Sep 2013)




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## Dusty Bin (13 Sep 2013)

montage said:


> Take your F1 and Moto Gp example, except this time yourself, everybody in this thread and myself are also joining in the F1 and Moto races alongside the pros (assuming there is a lack of motor racing expertise with the average person). Guess what will happen...more crashes. The logic applies perfectly.



So you've just turned a practical hypothesis into pure fantasy, because that would obviously never happen. That's a bit like saying 'put me at the controls of a jumbo jet and I would probably crash it' - which is obviously true. Even in cycling, there are restrictions which prevent 4th cats racing with E/1/2s (with the odd exception like handicap events), so the comparison of placing complete novices with the sport's elite does not work.

Looks like we ain't gonna agree. The risk of accidents is not reduced - because even those with the most knowledge and experience are still capable of causing crashes.


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## Rob3rt (13 Sep 2013)

Dusty Bin.......... you are talking complete and utter trash, you seem to have no grasp of probability whatsoever! Additionally I suggest you look up the term straw-man if you don't already know what it means!


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## Dusty Bin (13 Sep 2013)

Rob3rt said:


> Dusty Bin.......... you are talking complete and utter trash, you seem to have no grasp of probability whatsoever! Additionally I suggest you look up the term straw-man if you don't already know what it means!



mate - it's not trash, it's a realistic opinion based on racing for over 20 years, as well as being a member of BC's regional competition and event safety commission, where this sort of stuff comes up all the time. Have you ever even ridden a road/circuit race?


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## Rob3rt (13 Sep 2013)

Dusty Bin said:


> mate - it's not trash, it's a realistic opinion based on racing for over 20 years, as well as being a member of BC's regional competition and event safety commission, where this sort of stuff comes up all the time. Have you ever even ridden a road/circuit race?



No I haven't, I focus on Time Trials and Hill Climbs, however that is not relevant!

Probability applies here, and it says............ you are talking bunkum!


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## Dusty Bin (13 Sep 2013)

Rob3rt said:


> No I haven't, I focus on Time Trials and Hill Climbs, however that is not relevant!



Of course it's relevant. You accuse me of 'talking trash' when you have absolutely no direct, real world experience of the topic yourself. Maybe you should stick to riding on your own in a straight line.



Rob3rt said:


> Probability applies here, and it says............ you are talking bunkum!



Which bit do you disagree with?


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## Rob3rt (13 Sep 2013)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probability


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## Dusty Bin (13 Sep 2013)

Rob3rt said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probability



like I said - which bit do you disagree with?


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## Rob3rt (13 Sep 2013)

Dusty Bin said:


> The risk of accidents is not reduced - because even those with the most knowledge and experience are still capable of causing crashes.



The overall probability of a crash, lets say for simplicity is a function of unavoidable incidents and avoidable incidents. Assume unavoidable incidents constant but avoidable incidents to vary with regards level of experience/skill. With increased experience/skill (which can be gained through chaingangs and club rides etc, for example not falling off when someone touches you or leans on you, not overlapping wheels when avoidable, general stuff, nothing fancy etc), this value will decrease. Thus with an increase in experience/skill, avoidable incidents decrease, therefore the overall probability of a crash also decreases!

None of this proposes that avoidable incidents are eliminated, only that they are reduced. Thus reducing the overall probability of a crash.


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## Dusty Bin (13 Sep 2013)

Rob3rt said:


> The overall probability of a crash, lets say for simplicity is a function of unavoidable incidents and avoidable incidents. Assume unavoidable incidents constant but avoidable incidents to vary with regards level of experience/skill. With increased experience/skill (which can be gained through chaingangs and club rides etc, for example not falling off when someone touches you or leans on you, not overlapping wheels when avoidable, general stuff, nothing fancy etc), this value will decrease. Thus with an increase in experience/skill, avoidable incidents decrease, therefore the overall probability of a crash also decreases!
> 
> None of this proposes that avoidable incidents are eliminated, only that they are reduced. Thus reducing the overall probability of a crash.



What are your definitions of avoidable/unavoidable incidents? Give me practical examples from your extensive road racing experience.


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## Sittingduck (13 Sep 2013)

You are Black & Yellow and ICMFP!


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## montage (13 Sep 2013)

Dusty Bin said:


> mate - it's not trash, it's a realistic opinion based on racing for over 20 years, as well as being a member of BC's regional competition and event safety commission, where this sort of stuff comes up all the time. Have you ever even ridden a road/circuit race?



If you are part of a BC regional safety commission, and have this view, then the sport in your area has big issues. I'd be interested to know which region


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## Dusty Bin (13 Sep 2013)

montage said:


> If you are part of a BC regional safety commission, and have this view, then the sport in your area has big issues. I'd be interested to know which region



Like I said right at the start - skills are good - I don't think anyone would want to discourage people from coming up through the club structure. The only point I have ever made is that crashes will still happen, regardless of the skills you have - and that having the skills will not prevent accidents from happening. You can only do so much to prepare riders for racing. And the best learning environment for racing is racing itself. That's why the 4th category was introduced. Whether 4th cat racing is being run in the most effective way is an entirely different matter.


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## zizou (13 Sep 2013)

If a newcomer to racing goes out in a chain gang with those that already race it can be of huge benefit. First you get to know the fitness required - this shouldnt be underestimated if you are struggling from the start and are on the limit then mistakes are more likely to happen. It also helps with learning how to follow a wheel at pace and the importance of keeping things smooth. You can also get experience of sprint when it opens up for the final 30 sign. You'll also get told if you have bad habits that could potentially be dangerous.

We all see a certain type of inexperienced racers and how they ride - the problem however is not inexperience itself though (everyone has to start somewhere) it is the ones that think they know best and believe themselves above learning the ropes before jumping in. Those that will put their arms on the bars thinking they are Cancellera, those that are constantly looking back while in the middle of a fast paced bunch rather than concentrating on the wheel in front, those that swerve all over the place when they try and take a drink from their bottle and so on. These aren't mistakes that are down to inexperience of racing these are mistakes that are made because of inexperience in group riding and they've jumped in thinking they know best. By comparision look at how most junior races go even at a young age - these races are far tidier and that is a result of them coming into racing after getting some coaching first.



Dusty Bin said:


> An experienced rider is just as likely to cause an accident as a first timer. Nothing dumb about that - and it is supported by more evidence than you are ever likely to need. Experience and knowledge both suggest that you shouldn't ride into oncoming traffic, but we have seen two deaths this year when experienced riders did exactly that.



I know of the two accidents in question (one was an elite one was a 4th Cat) i dont know the exact circumstances but if they did cross onto the other side of the road then that was a risk they probably consciously took and unfortunately for all concerned it ended very badly. The inexperienced riders often make their mistakes unconciously from not knowing any better, just thinking they do.


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## Dusty Bin (13 Sep 2013)

zizou said:


> (one was an elite one was a 4th Cat)



3rd cat, not 4th - not that it really matters now.

Group riding, etiquette, all of that is great - it certainly won't do any harm. But it won't stop people turning into idiots when they start racing (and I include myself in that), for the same reason that the driving licence doesn't keep idiots out of cars.



zizou said:


> i dont know the exact circumstances but if they did cross onto the other side of the road then that was a risk they probably consciously took and unfortunately for all concerned it ended very badly.



That was precisely the point I was making earlier. The risks you take - or the gaps you go for - in racing are not something you can (or would want to) train for. Nobody would do that in training.


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