# Stage 12 **SPOILER**



## Noodley (16 Jul 2010)

Last chance of a stage win for Sky today I reckon, as I can't see any other stages up for grabs....so I'll go for Lofkvist in a breakaway.


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## Willo (16 Jul 2010)

Is Armstrong gonna have a pop at taking a stage? Far enough ou nowt to be let go in a breakaway?


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## iAmiAdam (16 Jul 2010)

Columbia have got to try something.


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## rich p (16 Jul 2010)

iAmiAdam said:


> Columbia have got to try something.




Well they won yesterday!


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## Noodley (16 Jul 2010)

Willo said:


> Is Armstrong gonna have a pop at taking a stage? Far enough ou nowt to be let go in a breakaway?



And plenty of riders who won't let him....


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## iAmiAdam (16 Jul 2010)

rich p said:


> Well they won yesterday!



Yeah, they still need to do something again today, most will write them off without renshaw now.


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## Crankarm (16 Jul 2010)

User3094 said:


> Bit too lumpy today for Cav and HTC?



I think they are going to have to think about what they are going to do, use their heads as opposed to their braun?


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## rich p (16 Jul 2010)

Crankarm said:


> I think they are going to have to think about what they are going to do, use their heads as opposed to their *braun*?



To shave their legs, Cranky?  

HTC won't do anything apart fro help Cav win the sprint stages and assist Mick Rogers to a higher GC when they hit the hills.


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## Chuffy (16 Jul 2010)

iAmiAdam said:


> Columbia have got to try something.


Toss for it, heads they do...


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## Crankarm (16 Jul 2010)

Did anyone notice that the comic Cycling Weekly (out Thursday 1st July) messed up big time with the dates and days of the stages in their Tour supplement.

Page 99 - Stage 11 - Yesterday Thursday 15th july was given as Thursday July 12
Page 100 - Stage 12 - Today Friday 16th July is given as Monday July 16
Page 101 - Stage 13 - Tomorrow Saturday 17th july is given as Tuesday July 17

To be expected really as the muppets condone cyclists using blue flashing lights  . 

The only good thing about their supplement is the map and clear profile of the day's stage.


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## rich p (16 Jul 2010)

It's about time a Sky rider got into a break now they can forget protecting Wiggo fully. EBH has disappointed and Steve Cummings could have a go if he's got the legs.


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## Crankarm (16 Jul 2010)

Sad to say but I think Wiggo is going to struggle to stay in the top 20 GC this year, if he reaches Paris. A pity really. A lot of expectation has been put on his shoulders. The Pyrenees will be where Contadour and Andy Schleck will leave him and others far behind.


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## raindog (16 Jul 2010)

I doubt if today will end with the sprinters. The famous finish at Mende usually favours a really strong rider getting away on that last hill.


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## biking_fox (16 Jul 2010)

Cav needs the intermeidate sprint points - but I doubt he'll be able to get them. Maybe a breakaway will hover them up, but the first set should be in reach of Thor or even petacchi if he's feeling agressive enough.


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## Crackle (16 Jul 2010)

Noodley said:


> Last chance of a stage win for Sky today I reckon, as I can't see any other stages up for grabs....so I'll go for Lofkvist in a breakaway.



I nearly put him in my fantasy team last night but I can't quite see him doing it. I think a break has a good chance today.


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## MacB (16 Jul 2010)

Andy schleck made intimations of intent, re today, in an interview last night. Not sure if he was serious or just trying to play mind games with Astana. But he came across as very confident and saying he had the legs and could go whenever he felt like it.


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## Noodley (16 Jul 2010)

Crackle said:


> I nearly put him in my fantasy team last night but I can't quite see him doing it. I think a break has a good chance today.




I've kept him in my team from day one, and today is his last chance before he gets punted in favout of someone else.


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## Flying_Monkey (16 Jul 2010)

This is a far more difficult stage than it might appear - I think t is breakaway territory but a breakaway for a determined group with significant climbing ability - perhaps not of the 'pure climber' type but of the 'strongman climber' type.


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## biking_fox (16 Jul 2010)

[quoteI think it is breakaway territory ][/quote]
If the peleton slow down that is! They're cracking along so far, noones been able to get away.


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## MacB (16 Jul 2010)

SaxoBank to turn up the heat and isolate Bertie maybe?


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## Flying_Monkey (16 Jul 2010)

MacB said:


> SaxoBank to turn up the heat and isolate Bertie maybe?



it could actually be one in which some of those a little lower down the order try to push themselves into contention because the lumpiness of the stage will make it almost impossible to maintain a large stable peloton. I think the field will be all over the shop by the end.


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## Noodley (16 Jul 2010)

Could be quite an interesting group if they manage to get rid of the 'big names' of Vino, Hesjedal and Kloden...some decent climbers in there including Moinard who I thought might do something during one of this years less mountainous but hilly stages but I'd wrongly guessed at stage 10...and he's got 2 ofhis team there to help him.


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## MacB (16 Jul 2010)

Flying_Monkey said:


> it could actually be one in which some of those a little lower down the order try to push themselves into contention because the lumpiness of the stage will make it almost impossible to maintain a large stable peloton. I think the field will be all over the shop by the end.



true, I was just trying to make sense of the late push by Saxobank yesterday, it seemed far in excess of what was required to keep the yellow jersey safe. I wondered if maybe it was a bit of a prod just to see how the Astana legs were, maybe in preparation for a 'cunning plan'


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## Flying_Monkey (16 Jul 2010)

...and lo! we have a substantial group with Kloden, Hejsdal, Vinokourov as well as climbers like Moinard... can they extend their lead? Hushovd is in there too but he may last only as long as the second intemediate sprint (are you watching and learning, Cav?)...


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## biking_fox (16 Jul 2010)

Flying_Monkey said:


> ... Hushovd is in there too but he may last only as long as the second intemediate sprint (are you watching and learning, Cav?)...



Lampre are moving up trying to catch Thor to protect Petacchi in Green ... such things certainly enliven a "transition" stage. 

On the BBC lins lots of people are saying they should alter the points for wins so that Cav can get the Green - as if it were a Sprinters jearsy rather than the Points one. 


ETA - but Lampre have failed to do so, looks like Thor might well get the Green today.


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## Flying_Monkey (16 Jul 2010)

Now we have a really interesting 'selection' - the guys I mentioned above, along with Kiryienka, but not including Moinard, have dropped the rest of the break. Hushovd sat up after winning the sprint, of course...


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## Flying_Monkey (16 Jul 2010)

Contador, just wow... Schleck is being broken! But not too bad in the end, only loses 10 seconds.

But little groups all over the road... there will be a bit of shaking up in the lower reaches of the overall competition tonight.


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## Eoin Rua (16 Jul 2010)

Good finish, sucks for Vinokourov after having done all that work...that road after the climb looked like a dream to ride on - insanely smooth!


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## Flying_Monkey (16 Jul 2010)

Eoin Rua said:


> Good finish, sucks for Vinokourov after having done all that work...that road after the climb looked like a dream to ride on - insanely smooth!



I bet Vino's annoyed with Contador tonight. AC basically knackered his chances of a stage win to get 9 seconds back on Schleck and didn't even win the stage for Astana himself... I guess he's 'just a domestique' for the TdF but that's still going to smart...


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## Eoin Rua (16 Jul 2010)

Just wondering, if there's a stage with a lot of climbing will riders be using a double or triple set? Will they switch between the two if that's the case?


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## montage (16 Jul 2010)

Eoin Rua said:


> Just wondering, if there's a stage with a lot of climbing will riders be using a double or triple set? Will they switch between the two if that's the case?




There was an evilly steep stage in the giro d'italia this year. They never (As far as I know) use tripples. In the giro stage, many used a 27 cassette with a 52/53 outer ring and a 34/36 inner.


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## montage (16 Jul 2010)

I don't like Vino, but he deserved today's stage, shame


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## Crankarm (16 Jul 2010)

Eoin Rua said:


> Just wondering, if there's a stage with a lot of climbing will riders be using a double or triple set? Will they switch between the two if that's the case?



This is the TdF not a sportive .......................


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## montage (16 Jul 2010)

bugger, thor back in green


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## Crankarm (16 Jul 2010)

montage said:


> There was an evilly steep stage in the giro d'italia this year. They never (As far as I know) use tripples. In the giro stage, many used a 27 cassette with a 52/53 outer ring and a 34/36 inner.



53/39 I think you'll find. Maybe they can get away with a 25 rear sprocket but I would be surprised if they went to 27.

I've ridden the Alps on a 39x25. If you are fit and light like these guys then 39x25 is plenty low enough.


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## Eoin Rua (16 Jul 2010)

Crankarm said:


> This is the TdF not a sportive .......................



Haha true...but I'm sure after almost 5 hours in the saddle and facing that hill a granny gear may be appreciated


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## Noodley (16 Jul 2010)

Nope, montage is correct there was a stage on the Giro in 2009 where some were using 27 rear cog.


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## Crackle (16 Jul 2010)

I posted a link to an article during the Giro, here


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## woohoo (16 Jul 2010)

… and a bit of Googling revealed






> Lennard Zinn reports from the 2010 Giro d'Italia:
> 
> I saw Ivan Basso riding nimbly in a 36 X 29, while Vincenzo Nibali and the rest of the Liquigas team struggled a bit more with the gear. But BMC's Cadel Evans was just barely behind Basso where he passed by with 3.5km to go, and he was doing fine with a 34 X 27. He has trained on the critical Giro mountain stages for weeks and knows what he wants on his Easton EC90SLX wheels adorning his BMC Team Machine SLR01. Julian Dean and other Garmin riders came by me with the same 34 X 27 gear.
> 
> Damiano Cunego, Gibo Simoni, and the other Lampre riders, as well as Pippo Pozzato and the other Katusha riders pushed their Campy setups all the way to 34 X 29





IIRC, on the 2007 Giro, some were using triples on one stage (can't remember which).


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## Flying_Monkey (16 Jul 2010)

Pah! Crankarm would saunter past them on his 39 x 25...


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## Crankarm (16 Jul 2010)

It was my impression we were discussing gearing on the TdF?

I have ridden the Aubisque, Soulor and Tourmalet on a 39x25 no problems. I also had 4 panniers and a trailer with a huge bag of spuds in. No the trailer and panniers are a joke, but I did ride UP on a 39x25 gear no problem and DOWN on a 53x12.


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## montage (16 Jul 2010)

Crankarm said:


> It was my impression we were discussing gearing on the TdF?
> 
> I have ridden the Aubisque, Soulor and Tourmalet on a 39x25 no problems. I also had 4 panniers and a trailer with a huge bag of spuds in. No the trailer and panniers are a joke, but I did ride UP on a 39x25 gear no problem and DOWN on a 53x12.




I did say I was talking about the Giro in that post 

And many riders definately rode a 52/34 (or similar....i.e. a standard big ring with a compact inner) and a 27 rear


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## Crankarm (16 Jul 2010)

montage said:


> I did say I was talking about the Giro in that post
> 
> And many riders definately rode a 52/34 (or similar....i.e. a standard big ring with a compact inner) and a 27 rear



Front doubles are typically 53/39.

52 is so 20th century .... 

S'pose they could ride a compact chain set 50/34 although they would easily spin out of 50x12 or 50x11 on the descents.


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## Flying_Monkey (16 Jul 2010)

Crankarm said:


> Front doubles are typically 53/39.
> 
> 52 is so 20th century ....
> 
> S'pose they could ride a compact chain set 50/34 although they would easily spin out of 50x12 or 50x11 on the descents.



I think that on the serious alpine descents it is more about controlling acceleration and getting the perfect line than pushing on - you'd be spinning out of any gear you have once you get anywhere near the speeds with which they descend.


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## montage (16 Jul 2010)

Crankarm said:


> Front doubles are typically 53/39.
> 
> 52 is so 20th century ....
> 
> S'pose they could ride a compact chain set 50/34 although they would easily spin out of 50x12 or 50x11 on the descents.




I know! But they took a 53/34! I promise!
There was a really steep long climb (can't remember the name...I think cummings was on a break away during it if that helps) that had a 25% section or there abouts. They took the 34 inner ring so they could get up it, and took the 53 so that they could get down the mountains fast enough!

Sorry about mistaking the 52 for 53


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## montage (16 Jul 2010)

Flying_Monkey said:


> I think that on the serious alpine descents it is more about controlling acceleration and getting the perfect line than pushing on - you'd be spinning out of any gear you have once you get anywhere near the speeds with which they descend.




It's about the acceleration I guess as you say, they slow down round the bends, but are still going fast, so want a gear big enough that they can spin round to accelerate out of the corners. At all other times they are going roughly a kazillion mph so having any gears at all is pointless at such speeds


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## rich p (16 Jul 2010)

montage said:


> I know! But they took a 53/34! I promise!
> There was a really steep long climb (can't remember the name...I think cummings was on a break away during it if that helps) that had a 25% section or there abouts. They took the 34 inner ring so they could get up it, and took the 53 so that they could get down the mountains fast enough!
> 
> Sorry about mistaking the 52 for 53




Cummings broke away on the Monte Grappa when Wiggins slightly embarrassed himself by catching him and shooting off the front only to be caught about ikm later. That one only went up to 14% max. I know cos I rode it a few weeks ago. It was a monster. 2hrs of hell!


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## rich p (16 Jul 2010)

rich p said:


> Cummings broke away on the Monte Grappa when Wiggins slightly embarrassed himself by catching him and shooting off the front only to be caught about ikm later. That one only went up to 14% max. I know cos I rode it a few weeks ago. It was a monster. 2hrs of hell!




p.s. I was on a 30 x 25


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## montage (16 Jul 2010)

rich p said:


> Cummings broke away on the Monte Grappa when Wiggins slightly embarrassed himself by catching him and shooting off the front only to be caught about ikm later. That one only went up to 14% max. I know cos I rode it a few weeks ago. It was a monster. 2hrs of hell!



Maybe cummings went away on other stages, or maybe I am thinking of the wrong stage.
One or the other. Nice one on riding it


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## rich p (16 Jul 2010)

montage said:


> Maybe cummings went away on other stages, or maybe I am thinking of the wrong stage.
> One or the other. Nice one on riding it




Maybe. Cummings was more aggressive on the Giro than the TdF


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## Foghat (16 Jul 2010)

Arse. I was hoping to see Schleck stick one on Contador this year. I suppose Contador's recovery powers mean he is likely to find it easier to drop Schleck as it goes through the Pyrenees.

I still see Contador's guilty-as-sin look on his face and less-than-convincing denial when asked "Have you ever doped?" at the Tour a couple of years ago. Are there any major doubts about Schleck's record in this area?


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## Flying_Monkey (16 Jul 2010)

Foghat said:


> Arse. I was hoping to see Schleck stick one on Contador this year. I suppose Contador's recovery powers mean he is likely to find it easier to drop Schleck as it goes through the Pyrenees.
> 
> I still see Contador's guilty-as-sin look on his face and less-than-convincing denial when asked "Have you ever doped?" at the Tour a couple of years ago. Are there any major doubts about Schleck's record in this area?



Well, there was a surprising stop and search of their father's car at the border a couple of years ago.

http://uk.reuters.co...102710020080724


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## Foghat (16 Jul 2010)

Flying_Monkey said:


> I think that on the serious alpine descents it is more about controlling acceleration and getting the perfect line than pushing on - *you'd be spinning out of any gear you have once you get anywhere near the speeds with which they descend*.



Only to a point, FM. As the TV coverage misses much of the descents, it is not alweays obvious, but while those descents do have many long, monumentally fast sections, they also have plenty where major periods of pedalling are needed. Often it is wind-dependent. 

Racing down them flat out is not a great deal less knackering than racing up them, due to the amount of pedalling, the sometimes rough surfaces and the concentration. Whenever I've been there (not since the 90s, sadly), my group always treated EVERY descent victory as a badge of honour, so they were always taken full-on - what's interesting is that we rarely encountered other cyclists able/prepared to do the same (this in July/August, when hundreds of amateur racing cyclists would be there), and we could never understand it!

Admittedly it's the sprinting out of tight bends that has the most effect on fatigue, as you identify, but the flatter wind-against sections take it out of you too, and you can spend a lot of time in the 11/12/13/14/15. The riders in the Tour, Dauphine etc often don't race down them, especially on the earlier passes. Racing down them is a major exercise in effort and concentration (even more so for recreational cyclists on open roads who have serious dangers to contend with too).


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## Will1985 (16 Jul 2010)

montage said:


> I don't like Vino, but he deserved today's stage, shame


+1 Once again, Contador manages to piss off a team mate.


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## Foghat (16 Jul 2010)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Well, there was a surprising stop and search of their father's car at the border a couple of years ago.
> 
> http://uk.reuters.co...102710020080724



Thanks for the link. Looks like a random stop, maybe, but who knows?


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## Noodley (16 Jul 2010)

Foghat said:


> Thanks for the link. Looks like a random stop, maybe, but who knows?



Not at the time it didn't....


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## HLaB (16 Jul 2010)

Will1985 said:


> +1 Once again, Contador manages to piss off a team mate.



I couldn't understand Contador at the end; instead of teaming up with Rodriguez and gaining a few more seconds perhaps, he chose to play cat and mouse with him for the stage.


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## Chuffy (16 Jul 2010)

HLaB said:


> I couldn't understand Contador at the end; instead of teaming up with Rodriguez and gaining a few more seconds perhaps, he chose to play cat and mouse with him for the stage.


Who knows? <gallic shrug> He's going to win, obviously wants a stage and to give Schleck a little kick in return for being beaten by him a few stages ago.

@Will1643 - Who else has Bertie upset? Surely you don't mean Teflon Tex? Naughty Bertie! Should have been slower!


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## MacB (17 Jul 2010)

Foghat said:


> Racing down them flat out is not a great deal less knackering than racing up them, due to the amount of pedalling, the sometimes rough surfaces and the concentration. Whenever I've been there (not since the 90s, sadly), my group always treated EVERY descent victory as a badge of honour, so they were always taken full-on - what's interesting is that we rarely encountered other cyclists able/prepared to do the same (this in July/August, when hundreds of amateur racing cyclists would be there), and we could never understand it!



I think it was David Harmon was mentioning this sort of thing in the commentary on Thursday. Something about how he'd been riding with a group from Ireland and they'd all agreed that pushing a descent, if not racing or training to race, was pretty pointless. I don't know why you find it surprising that you didn't encounter many other like minded amateurs . Some of those descents scare me just watching them on TV.


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## Foghat (17 Jul 2010)

MacB said:


> I think it was David Harmon was mentioning this sort of thing in the commentary on Thursday. Something about how he'd been riding with a group from Ireland and they'd all agreed that pushing a descent, if not racing or training to race, was pretty pointless. I don't know why you find it surprising that you didn't encounter many other like minded amateurs . Some of those descents scare me just watching them on TV.



Er, they had no qualms about racing us up the climbs. It's just the majority that we got into racing up pussied out completely as soon as we commenced the descent - not just not push it but not get up to high speed at all (i.e. seemingly lacking any adrenaline genes at all). Occasionally there would a be a Frenchie prepared to get stuck in on the descent and to try to uphold national honour on his home turf, by being first down, and they clearly understood that there is as much point in racing your companions down as there is racing up, but most wouldn't..

Anyway, this seemed very much a French rider thing, for whatever reason. Most British racing cyclists I've known can't resist racing each other down the big hills.


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## raindog (17 Jul 2010)

Will1985 said:


> +1 Once again, Contador manages to piss off a team mate.


Who was the other?


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## Will1985 (17 Jul 2010)

Kloden, and obviously Armstrong was a given.


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## raindog (17 Jul 2010)

I thought it was LA and Bruyneel who pissed Berto off, not the other way around.


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