# City riding with kids on own bike.



## Sara_H (2 Apr 2012)

So I've started trying to get my 9 year old son more used to riding TO places (as opposed to putting bike in car, driving somewhere, riding bike, driving home).

This is bourne of necessity really, my car was written off in an accident in december. bikes are now my main form of transport. Also I'm too mean to pay the £5.80 it costs to make a return trip to the city centre for me and my son (a trip of about five3 miles each way!).

I've been to city centre today with my son, I have to say it was SOOOOO stressfull.

He has no road sense (why would he?), and we both ended up riding on the pavement for large part of the journey Luckily, its a long a stretch of busy main road with deserted pavements, so I didn't upset anyone.

On the busy bits I can't even cycle on the road as I can't concentrate on keeping him safe and sensible on the pavement and me safe on the road.

Its really frustrating. I think as an adult driver, the rules of the road become instinctive, you forget that its ll alien to children. I've been trying to teach him little bits, but I feel so unsafe with him out on the road - my hearts in my mouth at some of the things that have happened when we're out and about.

There aren't really any decent off road tracks we can use, though there is a little BMX track half way along that we can stop at for a bit of light relief.

Part of the problem is that at the minute he's having a phase where he challenges everything I say. So me saying "keep left, theres a car coming towards you" is an invitaton for him to swerve round and start bickering with me in the middle of a road! Even when he's not giving me lip, he's busy blethering about Lionel Messi, His friends new DS game, Is jesus vunerable to kryptonite, why won't I let him have a new football etc - he just won't concentrate.

Help! Top tips? Advise?

I know the only way forward is to just get on with it and he'll learn through experince. Any reassurance?


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## jugglingphil (2 Apr 2012)

Do you have access to bikeability? He may respond differently to someone else teaching him.
http://www.dft.gov.uk/bikeability/
If not start on some smaller roads where there is little traffic and do some training when you are not trying to get somewhere. Can he cycle one-handed? ie to indicate when turning, this will be a fun new skill.


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## Sara_H (2 Apr 2012)

Hiya, I've considered bikeability. They have it next year at school, but thought I'd see if I can access sessions early.

We've been cycling a route near to home with only a short stretch of quiet residential road (mostly though park land), that takes us to his footie training, cycle speedway training and his Nan's house! I think it was because we went off piste today that it was stressfull again.

I can't decide if he should be in front or behind. If he's in front I can ride in primary to protect him, but I've found if we need to make a right turn it feels safer if he's behind me.

I was quite proud today that as we did I right turn he was signalling to turn when I glanced round!


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## summerdays (2 Apr 2012)

I'd leave the busy roads until you are more happy cycling on the the small residential roads first. He should be in front of you where you can see what he is doing, and as you say you can be a bit further out to shield him. At the actual junction come up beside him and turn together (or get off and walk at particularly busy junctions). Having said that I cycled my middle child who has the least road sense at the weekend and for her it is easier to follow at times (and yes we did walk to cross the A38 - it would have been too much to turn right using a central lane). I talk describing the journey as we go along to try and get my youngest noticing the hazards, he's already done Bikeability so must be slightly older.

Some children take longer to get the rules of the road than others - in this case my middle child is the least aware by quite a considerable amount.


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## sidevalve (2 Apr 2012)

I feel for you. You really do have a problem. It seems to be he doesn't really want to learn some do, some don't, all kids assume they are invulnerable and he probably doesn't see any reason to be so carefull [to be fair this can carry on for 30 years]!
The result of a mistake could be terrible for you, him and any other poor s-d who may be involved, I wish you luck but I fear you may have to bite the bullit and try waiting a year or two untill HE decides he wants to have another go.


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## 400bhp (3 Apr 2012)

what's the rough area of the country you live in? 1st 3 letters of postcode will do.

Have a look on opencyclemap, bikeroutetoaster and/or sustrans mapping to see what paths are available near where you live.


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## Boris Bajic (3 Apr 2012)

Golly Gosh... this is a fraught and opinion-dividing area. First, it's wonderful that people are riding on the street with kids. Some quite serious, grown-up people (including our GP) questioned my sanity for getting my kids to cycle on the road.

The advice (all of which may be wrong) from someone who got 3 kids riding on the road in city and country at a young age:

1. Shadow him from slightly behind and to the right. You may attract a few close-ish passes, but you are shielding the child.

2. Use games to get him to look behind. "What colour is the car behind us?". "First one to see a blue car behind us" etc...

Looking behind seems unimportant to kids, so a game can make them do it. There may be better ways.

3. Overtake before junctions (saying that you'll do so) and tell them to do what you do and to stay close. Remember when doing this not to go for small gaps.

4. Is he OK at signalling? You can practise that with them in a car park. Signalling while climbing and looking behind... signalling while descending and looking behind. Those are the ones that got my kids swerving a little at first.

5. Use instructions while riding, but be clear, consistent and calm when giving them. Even if you go through what you're going to say in your head, there will be a time when it comes out as "STOP!! No, go on, stay left... WATCH OUT!!! Keep going... LOOK TO YOUR RIGHT!!! BLOODY HELL!"

Keep trying to sound calm and assured at all times and once you've done the Demented Parent Yell of Nonsense once, try not to do it again.

If it's a game and not too unamusing, he may take to it. Give it time. At nine, he may have pals who are let out on their own. Mine did, although they didn't do so themselves until eleven.

I hope this is helpful.


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## summerdays (3 Apr 2012)

Boris Bajic said:


> Golly Gosh... this is a fraught and opinion-dividing area. First, it's wonderful that people are riding on the street with kids. Some quite serious, grown-up people (including our GP) questioned my sanity for getting my kids to cycle on the road.
> 
> The advice (all of which may be wrong) from someone who got 3 kids riding on the road in city and country at a young age:
> 
> 4. Is he OK at signalling? You can practise that with them in a car park. Signalling while climbing and looking behind... signalling while descending and looking behind. Those are the ones that got my kids swerving a little at first.


 
Some good advice in your post - the only one I would question is encouraging them to look behind whilst signalling (especially when going downhill). That is how I broke my arm as I missed seeing the pot hole and lost control with one hand off the bike. So I would encourage them to look behind first and then signal whether it be up or downhill. (That's my personal opinion).


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## Hawk (4 Apr 2012)

Cyclecraft has a fairly thorough chapter on cycling with children on roads. I haven't read that chapter in detail but considering the rest of the book is a godsend, the best money I've ever spent on cycling, I would expect that you'd be able to pick up a few tips to help you out


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## Sara_H (4 Apr 2012)

Thanks for the tips. 

He's very enthusiastic about cycling, and was very proundcto have cycled "all the way to town" the other day. So its not a matter of him not wanting to do it. 

As I said, there aren't really any offf road options to get us to the places we need to be, and from my perspective I'll let him ride the pavement to get him off the busier roads. 

Ill definitely revisit cyclecraft and consider bikeability. 



I guess it's mostly a matter of getting him on his bike as much as possible, and it will come together naturally for him at some point.


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## marinyork (5 Apr 2012)

I'd cut yourself some slack, the town centre is not very cycle friendly at all. There are a lot of complicated routes mixed in with tram lines and busy junctions. It takes some time to get used to them and find a route you are happy with. I think one of the main problems is cutting east-west, this is particularly poorly served for cyclists.

The new city cycle map is in the process of being published, other than there is the old cycle map on the council website, opencyclemap and cyclestreets.

My tips would be to avoid Ecclesall Road which is statistically the most dangerous road and to avoid the Brook Hill "university" roundabout area and try and cross the ring road at some other location. Most other places are all right although the West St area is not ideal for cyclists.

If they like it that's great, would just start increasing the ride distance to the sort of places I'm guessing you went to.


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## Sara_H (5 Apr 2012)

We just went down through Heeley to Decathlon, he went on the pavement along Bramall Lane.

One of the things that is confusing about Sheffield is that (as an example), the underpass at the end of Bramall Lane is sign posted for cyclists in the underground section, but no indication that cyclist are allowed at some of the street level entrances.


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## marinyork (5 Apr 2012)

I agree that the south of the city entrance routes into town is problematic. I live on the south of the city.

I have specifically made the point about the brammal lane roundabout a number of times to the council. It is not actually completely their fault as a developer was supposed to cough up for it.

What it is is there is a 'ringroad' route that has slowly been built up over about 20 years. The original bit was on Hanover way and then bits have been added to it - one of the most recent bits being the bit along St Mary's Road between Charlotte Road and Shoreham St.

There are four entrances/exits to the Brammal Lane roundabout. You are only legally allowed to cycle through one of them (the one outside staples). The cycle route then stops in thin air, you're supposed to walk about 160ft to approximately outside St Mary's where a 'cyclists dismount' sign is and then resume. There is no provision whatsoever on the other two entrances. Of course no one is particularly going to complain about you using either of the other two entrances.

The theory about entering the city from that direction is that you're supposed to use the ring road/sheaf route. The problems with this is that you have to go further east cross using a toucan, cross brammal lane further down with just marked lines, wind your way down Aisline Road cross onto Fieldhead Road then the really big problem bit if Wosley Road. Cross Broadfield Road etc. Alternatively the Sheaf Valley walk weave in and out.

Don't blame you for pavement cycling on Brammal Lane. It's not an awful road to cycle on but the problem is cars pulling out of side roads or it being choked with traffic or at quieter times people doing 40+mph along it.

You may or may not prefer Shoreham St + Charlotte Road to Brammal Lane. It brings you out just next to the roundabout from the other side.


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## xpc316e (5 Apr 2012)

One thing to bear in mind that may help with your frusration is the knowledge that most children only start to acquire the skill of judging speed & distance from the age of 8 onwards. We look and see a car X metres away travelling at Y mph, and we make all sorts of judgements based on that info. Your son will look and probably 'see' only a car with no other useful info. 

You can acquire a single copy of 'Tales Of The Road', which is the junior version of the Highway Code, from the DfT via their website. Your council's Road Safety Dept will gladly give you a copy. Seeing the rules of the road in black & white, as opposed to you telling him might also help. Your local RS Dept may have info on Bikeability courses run during holidays etc.


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## coffeejo (5 Apr 2012)

Might also be worth asking about cycling clubs for kids in your area. I'm part of a group that's just set one up for 8-16 year olds - we do everything from BMX to MTB, and fortnightly skills sessions which includes cycling safely on the roads - and then we put into practice on family rides out to local coffee shops.


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## Sara_H (5 Apr 2012)

marinyork said:


> I agree that the south of the city entrance routes into town is problematic. I live on the south of the city.
> 
> I have specifically made the point about the brammal lane roundabout a number of times to the council. It is not actually completely their fault as a developer was supposed to cough up for it.
> 
> ...


Amazingly, Bramall Lane is sign posted as a recomended cycle route! Yet it is literally a painted narrow lane on a nasty main road!


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## marinyork (5 Apr 2012)

Sara_H said:


> Amazingly, Bramall Lane is sign posted as a recomended cycle route! Yet it is literally a painted narrow lane on a nasty main road!


 
Yes, but it isn't the only one in the area. There are the two alternative signed routes of the sheaf valley or down aisline/shoreham st. Not that you should particularly take notice of signed routes.

You have six routes you could go. Sheaf. Edmund St. SHoreham St. Brammal Lane. A zig zag of alderson Road and Hill St cutting through footpaths linking the streets and London Road.

If I was head of transport and had infinite funds I'd sort out Brammal Lane roundabout, traffic calm Brammal Lane and make large parts of Queens Road and one side of London Road up till about the Heeley Retail park a cycle path converting every crossing to a toucan. I'd also think about building the cycle bridge they were on about for crossing the ring road ages ago and add make sure the cycle paths went up both sides of the ring road and not just one side.


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## Sara_H (9 Apr 2012)

marinyork said:


> Yes, but it isn't the only one in the area. There are the two alternative signed routes of the sheaf valley or down aisline/shoreham st. Not that you should particularly take notice of signed routes.
> 
> You have six routes you could go. Sheaf. Edmund St. SHoreham St. Brammal Lane. A zig zag of alderson Road and Hill St cutting through footpaths linking the streets and London Road.
> 
> If I was head of transport and had infinite funds I'd sort out Brammal Lane roundabout, traffic calm Brammal Lane and make large parts of Queens Road and one side of London Road up till about the Heeley Retail park a cycle path converting every crossing to a toucan. I'd also think about building the cycle bridge they were on about for crossing the ring road ages ago and add make sure the cycle paths went up both sides of the ring road and not just one side.


 Thanks for your advice.

We cycled to meadowhall today and took a better road down into town and past the train station to pick up the start of the Five Weirs Walk. Unfortunately the Cobweb bridge is closed again, and we missed the diversion signs on the way out so ended up pavement cycling through Atlas for part of the way until we found a way back onto the route. 
Had a nice ride though.


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## growingvegetables (9 Apr 2012)

Sara_H said:


> Had a nice ride though.


That's the most important ... by a long, long way!
My kids are a few years older than yours now - but that was a huge bit of keeping them cycling.

But it took (is still taking?) some years to get some basic road sense hammered in for once and for all! [Oldest is now 26, and his driving last night gave me a couple of scares ]


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## Sara_H (9 Apr 2012)

growingvegetables said:


> That's the most important ... by a long, long way!
> My kids are a few years older than yours now - but that was a huge bit of keeping them cycling.
> 
> But it took (is still taking?) some years to get some basic road sense hammered in for once and for all! [Oldest is now 26, and his driving last night gave me a couple of scares ]


 Absolutely - he's really loving cycling at the minute, I'm keen to make sure he keeps enjoying it.


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## Sheffield_Tiger (11 Apr 2012)

Have you been in touch with PedalReady?

http://www.pedalready.co.uk/training_for_individuals.php

Really nice people, they do care about what they do


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## I like Skol (19 Apr 2012)

I just wanted to revisit this thread after reading it when it first started. I really can't imagine cycling in Sheffield with a yougster, as a driver that has passed through many times it just doesn't appear to be a very cycle friendly place (and it's all hilly!).

My oldest son is 9 and has been encouraged to cycle on the road with me over the last couple of years. I now feel he is almost ready to go it alone as I have almost taught him all I can. I think by the time he turns 10 (next jan) he will be given the freedom to ride the 2 miles to school by himself.

It dawned on me he may be ready after a couple of trips to his Cubs group over the winter and last night. Last nights trip was pretty horrid, we rode back along the main roads in the dark and rain. We both have decent lights and I take it in turns to ride ahead of him so he can see my road positioning and sometimes I ride behind so I can shield him and claim the lane at junctions.I asked him how he felt at one point and he answered honestly "a bit scared but OK". That is the perfect answer because it shows he obviously appreciates the possible dangers if he gets it wrong.

For the OP I think all you can do is give your son as much experience as possible on the quieter roads and slowly build up to the busier places when he is ready.I have always emphasised the importance of being predictable and following the same rules as the cars (ride on the left, obey the lights and the hardest, don't stop to give way to cars coming out of sidestreets as this confuses everyone)

I believe kids today can still cycle on the roads safely but I also think it is a huge help if they have a parent or parents that cycle and drive.


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## summerdays (19 Apr 2012)

Well tonight on a narrow bit of road - literally two car width only, lorry was coming towards us (so across on our side of the road). I held primary to slow him down a little, little Summerdays on the inside of me and went happily past it. I said it would have been nicer if it had slowed down, his response..... "it was good - the combined speed of him and the lorry passing close by meant the noise of all the sets of wheels passing him great". I was reasonably impressed with him though a bit worried that he was slightly blasé about it.


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## hennbell (19 Apr 2012)

I think you handled it just fine. It can be very hard to deal with city centers as an adult let alone as a 9 year old. Look for bike paths, ride on the pavement if you have too, but be as considerate as possible. Best to get him to enjoy riding first then work on the details later. 

BTW Jesus could handle kryptonite but according to a mate of mine Jesus was eaten by a bear - not joking he really told his children this


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## dongo (20 May 2012)

I find riding on the road with either of mine rather nerve-racking. Having them in front of you is definitely safer and I pull up alongside to give instructions at turns (particularly right hand turns). Sometimes my wife comes too and that seems much better, one of us rides in front to show the kids how it's done and the other behind to make sure they're doing it safely. One of mine has done cyclecraft at school but learned very little from it, it was too short for her she needs things to be drummed in for longer to "stick".

We live in a busy area just outside Leeds and I'm not sure I'd be happy to have them on the road there yet but we pick out cycle routes that have a bit of on-road and a lot of off-road to give them some experience without traumatising any of us. They seem to have little understanding of how roads work so we do a lot of explaining that as we come to different types of challenge but a healthy respect for cars which encourages them to pay attention and they're definitely improving.


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## User10119 (20 May 2012)

One thing that worked for me and my eldest was to try to only add one extra difficulty at a time. So I planned routes to be his furthest ever distance - but mostly in familiar territory or really easy roads. Or a distance that was well within his limits, but adding more difficult junctions/heavier traffic. Or (as complete flatlanders) a mostly familiar route with a diversion to A Hill - we needed a lesson at the top in how to descend safely, as I realised that at (then) 8 years of age he'd never ridden down anything bigger than a railway bridge.

He's 10 now, and almost at the stage that I would consider letting him ride to and from school alone. Not quite, because there is one busy road to contend with, but very close.


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## Butterfly (25 May 2012)

I ride quite close behind and give instructions for any tricky bits well in advance. The 7 year old I look after mainly rides on the pavement (this is around Brixton and Dulwich!), but I am beginning to get him onto the quiet roads. My stepson was very nervous of big roads (randomly allocated by him - some that he had a bee in his bonnet about were really minor!) when he came to live with us and the thing that helped him the most was doing some track cycling - all the skills, no distractions. Similarly, previous charges of mine have built up their confidence on traffic free trails. If they aren't having to think every time they change gear, they can concentrate on other skills. Smallish steps, interspersed with plenty of ice cream is mostly my approach!


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## Butterfly (25 May 2012)

Also, the more you ride with any child, the more you learn what to point out to them and what they will have realised for themself.


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## Sara_H (25 May 2012)

Thanks everyone. 

I've been getting my son out on his bike as much as possible. 

We ended up having a talk about him not arguing with me when we're out which seemed to hit home. 

I sent off for a copy of The Children's Highway Code and they also sent him loads of reflective stickers, which he distributed among his class mates. 

I've also revised our route into town based on the advice of Marinyork, so things are a bit better.


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## jugglingphil (25 May 2012)

Sara_H said:


> I sent off for a copy of The Children's Highway Code and they also sent him loads of reflective stickers, which he distributed among his class mates.


 
sounds interesting, where did you send off?


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## Sara_H (25 May 2012)

http://talesoftheroad.direct.gov.uk/

I found the information on this website - I haven't let my son see the website, I find it unecceserrily frightening and negative TBH, but I used the contact us button at the bottom of the page and reuested a copy of "The highway Code for Kids" and any other relevant literature - I got the book and 32 stickers!
You can download the book from the "Grown ups" section of the website, but I'm too tight with my printer ink to do that!


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## KateK (27 May 2012)

I'd only add that if you have another adult (and child) to go out with on a social ride then you can have one adult in front showing-by-doing and one adult at the back keeping an eye out. and you can swap over to give each other a rest from whichever is the most stressful position (the back usually in my experience). Also if you go out on a ride for pleasure you can plan your route to alternate tough bits on roads with easier bits off road to let them let off steam, then they concentrate better on the bits that matter.


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