# A good reason to not use clip-in (clipless) pedals [Video warning: Nasty arm break]



## Mr_Kipling (25 Jun 2015)

Some may have already seen this. I'm sure most on this forum would disagree with me, but I think clipless pedal use is too dangerous to be worth it's benefits. I think the guy in the video would be a lot better off had he not been using clipless. Even on the road, at a sudden stop if you can't unclip in time you could end up under a car head first. 



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## jonny jeez (25 Jun 2015)

Ha, nice. Chap,is lying there with his arm snapped in half and the organisers are like.."next please".

What utter cocks.

Nothing wrong with clip less.unless you plan to go riding down a thin starting ramp at 1mph and then jump off the edge.

Not much opportunity for that on the road.


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## screenman (25 Jun 2015)

If you think unclipping takes a measurable time longer to put your foot down, then something is wrong, but not with the pedals or cleats.


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## Cyclist33 (25 Jun 2015)

screenman said:


> If you think unclipping takes a measurable time longer to put your foot down, then something is wrong, but not with the pedals or cleats.



Conversely many people think being clipped in makes you faster or a better amateur cyclist, which it doesn't.


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## screenman (25 Jun 2015)

Cyclist33 said:


> Conversely many people think being clipped in makes you faster or a better amateur cyclist, which it doesn't.



I did not think we were talking about that myth. Do you ride clipped in, or loose.


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## Cyclist33 (25 Jun 2015)

screenman said:


> I did not think we were talking about that myth. Do you ride clipped in, or loose.



No but your post implies that it is a bad reflection on a rider if they struggle with clips so I thought I would point out that it doesn't make the difference people want it to.

I ride both but default to unclipped because of the hassle of clipping back in mainly, but also the unclipping seems about as unnatural a way of coming to a stop as you could get. Certainly these things have robbed many a good ride of much joy.


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## Milkfloat (25 Jun 2015)

Cyclist33 said:


> Conversely many people think being clipped in makes you faster or a better amateur cyclist, which it doesn't.



OK, I will bite. Can you point me out to where this has been discussed and proven? It is certainly not my experience, clipped in gets me more watts and crucially helps me pedal 'in circles', which maintains the power throughout the revolution of each pedal rotation.


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## screenman (25 Jun 2015)

So putting your foot on a pedal in a for you a natural position is harder for you than putting your foot on the pedal. Not sure I get that, it is 25 years since I have to think about clipping in and I use them on every ride.

Go back to my first post on this topic.


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## coffeejo (25 Jun 2015)

I have a beautiful scar on my shin from where my foot slipped off the flat pedal as I was pushing off, leading to the inevitable collision between pedal and limb as the cranks continued the revolution without me. Other than the fact that it bloomin hurt and I ended up with a shoe full of blood, the main problem was that I was at a crossroad with a main A road and came to an abrupt halt in the middle of one of the lanes. At the time, this seemed like less of a priority than the aforementioned shin of pain but looking back, it wasn't the best place to be stopped. And all because I wasn't clipped in...


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## Drago (25 Jun 2015)

Mr_Kipling said:


> I think the guy in the video would be a lot better off had he not been using clipless.


Correction. He'd be a lot better off if he actually learned to ride properly with clipless.



Mr_Kipling said:


> Even on the road, at a sudden stop if you can't unclip in time you could end up under a car head first.


If you're proficient in their use, then why should you not be able to unclip? Unclipping is every bit as quick as lifting your foot from a flat pedal. Indeed, in conditions of instability a rider competent in the use of SPDs can pull off tricks to stay upright that a flattie user can't. I'm perennially unpopular for saying it, but in my experience as a trainer many riders try moving across to clipless before their basic riding skills are sufficiently developed and that is what is responsible for their problems, not any inherent deficiency with the system. After all, how do I manage to use them quickly and seemlessly if they're so crap?



Mr_Kipling said:


> I'm sure most on this forum would disagree with me...


That's because you're commenting about then use of a piece of equipment that you're clearly not skilled in the use of yourself, and are therefore not qualified to make such a judgement.

In any event, the video you use to support you claim is laughable. Even if the rider had unclipped - and it didn't look to me as if they had even tried - then there the Hell are they supposed to put their feet from 2 feet above the ground?


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## Pro Tour Punditry (25 Jun 2015)

A very badly broken arm there - he needs to learn to fall properly as well as learning to ride down a ramp!


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## pauldavid (25 Jun 2015)

I think the OP may be onto something here.

Until someone can provide irrefutable evidence that clipless pedals are safe for us I have taken the following precautions.

1; fitted flat pedals to the commute bike

2; refusing to use the start ramp built in the front garden for the start of my commute. The wife is particularly happy about this one as she doesn't have to get up 10 minutes earlier every day to do the countdown to start time on the ramp.


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## Drago (25 Jun 2015)

I've been using them every ride for over a decade, without even a sniff of an incident. How much proof do you need?


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## pauldavid (25 Jun 2015)

Drago said:


> I've been using them every ride for over a decade, without even a sniff of an incident. How much proof do you need?



Could you let me have gopro footage for the entire period as evidence please.

As a side note, I have managed to slip on the flat pedal and smack my shin on one of the pedals, this has caused a bruise. I have now removed the flat pedals and lowered my saddle so that I can ride home balance bike style.

I will be taking advice from a local solicitor later about possible action against my LBS, how do they get away with selling these wheeled implements of torture in this day and age. He couldn't have put me in any more danger if he'd sold me a bear trap for use as a welcome mat!


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## Dan B (25 Jun 2015)

Drago said:


> Correction. He'd be a lot better off if he actually learned to ride properly with clipless.


In this case he'd be significantly better off if he learned to ride in a straight line


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## Drago (25 Jun 2015)

pauldavid said:


> Could you let me have gopro footage for the entire period as evidence please.



Are you suggesting I'm fibbing? I have no vested interest in SPDs. I own no patents, don't get paid to promote their use, don't sell them. I just use them. A lot.


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## screenman (25 Jun 2015)

Only 10 years, a mere newbie, 25 here.

I think some people over think that which does not need thinking about. When was the last time you had to think about pushing the clutch down before changing gear? other comparisons are available.


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## Sharky (25 Jun 2015)

Confused? Lost track of the discussion here.

In the video, it looks like he was pushed off the ramp sideways and fell.
His left foot looks as if is came unclipped from the pedal automatically as it should under stress and he fell without the bike being wrapped round his body and doing some associated damage. In the days of cleats, toe clips and straps, the rider would have pulled the strap so tight, that he would still have been connected to the bike and his foot would still have been attached to the bike.

This seems to be just a freak accident, caused by the pusher-off knocking him off balance. Nothing to do with pedal systems?

Sometimes in a club TT, I have been pushed off by an inexperienced pusher and almost lost my balance.


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## Venod (25 Jun 2015)

I don't think many reading this forum are in danger of falling of a TT starting ramp, and if there are I am sure they will be confident clipless users, as I am sure the guy in the vid was, but shoot happens.


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## coffeejo (25 Jun 2015)

Afnug said:


> I don't think many reading this forum are in danger of falling of a TT starting ramp


Only if it's between my bedroom and the bathroom in the middle of the night when I need a wee and CBA to put the lights on.


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## Drago (25 Jun 2015)

I don't understand why the video has been cited as an example of the dangers of clipless. Even on flats he would have fallen several feet with his bike and landed on his ass.


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## JMAG (25 Jun 2015)

If I had a pound for every time someone has tried to insist that I change to clipless, I'd be able to afford top of the range clipless shoes and pedals. Lol

I'm delighted for everyone that sees or feels whatever benefits from clipless, but I don't need them all trying to convince me to join them.

Happy in my ignorance


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## Drago (25 Jun 2015)

Good for you. If you just plain old prefer flats, then you stick with it.

However, there are others out there who try to justify their use of flats by telling is how clipless will make you die/become sterile/start liking Emmerdale, and that is just utter pap.

I, and most other clipless users, actually aren't interest in converting people to our religion. However, many of us do feel compelled to challenge the tripe that some people come up with to justify their choice of pedal. All that is required is to prefer one or the other - peddling (see what I did there?) a load of bullpois to justify their choice just makes them looks stupid.


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## Beebo (25 Jun 2015)

That video should have a warning on it, it isnt nice viewing.

And as pointed out in comments above how many of us ever use a start ramp and a track start in our everyday cycling.

The problem with that start is the ramp is too narrow and the marshal is too slow at trying to help when he sees the rider is in trouble.


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## winjim (25 Jun 2015)

So we've established that many people commute clipless and have no problem - but does anyone TT with flats?


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## JMAG (25 Jun 2015)

Drago said:


> However, there are others out there who try to justify their use of flats by telling is how clipless will make you die/become sterile/start liking Emmerdale, and that is just utter pap.



Lol, I agree with the sentiment, but when was the last time you went into a bike shop and were told by the staff you should get flat pedals?


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## Sharky (25 Jun 2015)

winjim said:


> So we've established that many people commute clipless and have no problem - but does anyone TT with flats?



One fast oldie forgot his shoes at one of our 10's and rode round in sandals - still caught me and did probably a 23!


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## Apollonius (25 Jun 2015)

Sharky is absolutely right that this video tells us nothing about pedal choices. As an SL user, I am quite pleased to see how easily they broke out when the rider was in trouble. I have only been using them for two years so, touch wood, have not had the opportunity to fall off with them yet! As for the poor chap falling off the ramp. Not good. The ramp seems far too narrow and steep to me. I would not fancy cycling down that!


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## MiK1138 (25 Jun 2015)

pauldavid said:


> Could you let me have gopro footage for the entire period as evidence please.
> 
> As a side note, I have managed to slip on the flat pedal and smack my shin on one of the pedals, this has caused a bruise. I have now removed the flat pedals and lowered my saddle so that I can ride home balance bike style.
> 
> I will be taking advice from a local solicitor later about possible action against my LBS, how do they get away with selling these wheeled implements of torture in this day and age. He couldn't have put me in any more danger if he'd sold me a bear trap for use as a welcome mat!


Ah but at least a Bear Trap would secure you on the bike.


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## JMAG (25 Jun 2015)

That reminds me of this


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## MiK1138 (25 Jun 2015)

i have only had 2 clip-less moments 1st one was within 30 mins of fitting pedals(standard) the second was as a result of pulling in on the right hand side of a local lane while instinctively clipping out of my left hand pedal (senior Moment)


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## Citius (25 Jun 2015)

Milkfloat said:


> OK, I will bite. Can you point me out to where this has been discussed and proven? It is certainly not my experience, clipped in gets me more watts and crucially helps me pedal 'in circles', which maintains the power throughout the revolution of each pedal rotation.



I'd be interested to see what evidence you have that 'clipless gets you more watts'. All the studies I have seen suggest there is no real benefit in terms of power production when comparing riding clipped in to riding on flats. There are benefits to riding clipped in - but improved power isn't one of them.


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## Milkfloat (25 Jun 2015)

Citius said:


> I'd be interested to see what evidence you have that 'clipless gets you more watts'. All the studies I have seen suggest there is no real benefit in terms of power production when comparing riding clipped in to riding on flats.



Take a look here - https://wattbike.com/uk/blog/post/whats_in_a_pedal_revolution_wattbike_has_the_answer

I notice that on a power meter - my pattern is relatively good (between peanut and elite), when concentrating on my pedal stroke (elite) my average watts go up and can be sustained longer. I also have a slight bias on my right leg due to sciatica on my left side which I am trying to overcome. It could just be that by concentrating on my pedal stroke I subconsciously put in more effort, but then I would expect endurance to suffer which it does not. For me - I find it a lot harder to pedal in circles on flats (the pesky times I forget to take my SPDs to the gym), again here even if I am concentrating, I cannot get the optimal pattern. I do not consciously ever pull up on the pedals at all.

The whole pedaling in circles concept does make sense as we all know it is easier to maintain revolutions than it is to constantly stop/start have to provide extra power etc.

Am I missing anything?


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## CUBE CRD (25 Jun 2015)

pauldavid said:


> I think the OP may be onto something here.
> 
> 2; refusing to use the start ramp built in the front garden for the start of my commute. The wife is particularly happy about this one as she doesn't have to get up 10 minutes earlier every day to do the countdown to start time on the ramp.


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## Drago (25 Jun 2015)

Citius said:


> I'd be interested to see what evidence you have that 'clipless gets you more watts'. All the studies I have seen suggest there is no real benefit in terms of power production when comparing riding clipped in to riding on flats. There are benefits to riding clipped in - but improved power isn't one of them.



You misread his words. He actually said clueless gets you more chicks.


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## Citius (25 Jun 2015)

Milkfloat said:


> Am I missing anything?



I would say you are missing a fair chunk of peer-reviewed science and numerous other studies, which suggest otherwise...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18418807
http://journals.humankinetics.com/j...hangeswithincreasingworkloadatconstantcadence
http://roadcyclinguk.com/riding/bike-fitting-the-myth-of-the-upstroke.html#wi4EXurIPVAEELKf.97
http://www.bikejames.com/strength/the-1-lie-about-pedaling-technique/
http://www.bikejames.com/strength/why-pulling-up-doesnt-add-to-your-pedal-stroke-power/


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## MontyVeda (25 Jun 2015)

the whole pedalling in circles concept is hard to avoid with both pedals going around a single central point of rotation... i ride on flats and can't help but pedal in circles.


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## Davidc (25 Jun 2015)

MontyVeda said:


> the whole pedalling in circles concept is hard to avoid with both pedals going around a single central point of rotation... i ride on flats and can't help but pedal in circles.



I use clips (after having a torsional injury to my knee from clipless) and find the same thing.

it's something to do with the cranks staying the same length as they go round. If those were made of flexible rubber so they stretched and twisted under load then that should provide non-circular motion, if required.

The only clear advantage of both clipless and clips is that they help with avoiding the application of a down force from the off-load leg on the rising pedal, which acts against the wanted driving force on the descending pedal.


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## screenman (25 Jun 2015)

MontyVeda said:


> the whole pedalling in circles concept is hard to avoid with both pedals going around a single central point of rotation... i ride on flats and can't help but pedal in circles.



That is your feet going around in circles, does not mean they are doing anything useful all the way round.


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## Citius (25 Jun 2015)

Davidc said:


> The only clear advantage of both clipless and clips is that they help with avoiding the application of a down force from the off-load leg on the rising pedal, which acts against the wanted driving force on the descending pedal.



 Ironically, that is exactly the technique that track riders use to slow down (and they're always clipped in)


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## Milkfloat (25 Jun 2015)

Citius said:


> I would say you are missing a fair chunk of peer-reviewed science and numerous other studies, which suggest otherwise...
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18418807
> http://journals.humankinetics.com/j...hangeswithincreasingworkloadatconstantcadence
> ...



I don't disagree with any of these studies - they all claim that 'pulling up' is not good. That is very different from pedaling in circles and maintaining constant rotation. If anyone buys clipless to 'pull up' then I agree they are totally misguided. So I think we are talking about the same thing. Now 'poo scaping' is something I think works - which incidentally help you pedal in circles.


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## Citius (25 Jun 2015)

Milkfloat said:


> I don't disagree with any of these studies - they all claim that 'pulling up' is not good. That is very different from pedaling in circles and maintaining constant rotation. If anyone buys clipless to 'pull up' then I agree they are totally misguided. So I think we are talking about the same thing. Now 'poo scaping' is something I think works - which incidentally help you pedal in circles.


Those studies show that power is mainly produced on the downstroke - and that pulling-up and the 'scraping' - and even the 'pedalling in circles' thing - are largely ineffective in terms of power production.


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## MiK1138 (25 Jun 2015)

MontyVeda said:


> the whole pedalling in circles concept is hard to avoid with both pedals going around a single central point of rotation... i ride on flats and can't help but pedal in circles.


Ahhh you obviously dont have a square tapered BB


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## DCLane (25 Jun 2015)

The rider is poorly pushed off; he then wobbles rather than pushing down hard to get moving, then falls badly.


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## Berk on a Bike (25 Jun 2015)

Jose Been the cycling commentator tweeted the video this morning (with an x-ray of the damage - nasty) and also photos of two other riders who had problems starting in the same race. One of those hit the deck too. One has to wonder if it's the clipping in that's the problem.


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## arallsopp (25 Jun 2015)

Clipless has considerable advantages if you're travelling flat on your back with your legs stretched out in front (as do I). I find riding on flats to be extremely tiring, somewhat more dangerous, and a fair amount more embarrassing. Witness the 'damn, wrong shoes' style exit from lights, when what should have been a powerful first push on the pedals sends a leg skywards in a crisp seig heil. 

Even on an upright, the sheer apprehension about riding clipless seems to make me safer. That gap which to a beginner on flats looks so enticingly harmless spikes canyon running apprehension into the newbie on SPDs. By the time I'd learnt confidence in unclipping, I'd also learnt where the real risks were.


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## Citius (25 Jun 2015)

Bin the start ramps = end of problem.


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## Davidc (25 Jun 2015)

Citius said:


> Ironically, that is exactly the technique that track riders use to slow down (and they're always clipped in)


Same goes for any fixed bike, nothing ironic about it, it's how you slow down without a back brake or with no brakes and any system for keeping the foot in its intended position will help, as it does in normal riding. Clipless and clips will do that, I'm sure someone will invent something else new (and more expensive) one day!


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## JMAG (25 Jun 2015)

DCLane said:


> The rider is poorly pushed off; he then wobbles rather than pushing down hard to get moving, then falls badly.



They aren't being pushed off, they are simply being supported until GO. The problem here might be language - I wonder if any of the riders who fell were natives? As far as I can tell, it's a count down from 5 and they might have been expecting a count down from 10?


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## Citius (25 Jun 2015)

They will be counted down with plenty of time. Only the last 5 seconds is counted with the hand signal, so no experienced rider would have been caught off guard by that.


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## Milkfloat (25 Jun 2015)

This looks and sounds like the Netherlands - we all know they are not used to hills, so the start ramp must have confused them  Before anyone shouts at me - yes I know about the Cauberg.


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## Simontm (25 Jun 2015)

Drago said:


> I've been using them every ride for over a decade, without even a sniff of an incident. How much proof do you need?


Really? Every ride? You have a start ramp every ride? I call shenanigans


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## Berk on a Bike (25 Jun 2015)

Citius said:


> Bin the start ramps = end of problem.


Just watching live coverage of the women's elite TT at the British championships and they aren't using a ramp.


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## Smokin Joe (25 Jun 2015)

When you crash it is safer to stay clipped into the pedal than to pull your foot out. The rider in the clip broke his arm because he put it out to save himself, had he kept hold of the bars he wouldn't have. An extended limb is far more likely to break than one which is not.

As for clipless, I've been using them since they first appeared (Thirty years or so ago) and never had an issue.


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## Milkfloat (25 Jun 2015)

Berk on a Bike said:


> View attachment 93374
> 
> Just watching live coverage of the women's elite TT at the British championships and they aren't using a ramp.



I now have to admit that I clicked about 3 times on that screen grab to get it to play. Oh the shame.


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## nickyboy (25 Jun 2015)

All this pedalling circles, pulling upwards stuff is nonsense. You only pull upwards if you're doing some humungous effort up a short hill....so about 0.01% of time on the bike

The benefit of clipping into the pedals is it guarantees your feet are in the best place on the pedals and they remain there


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## Milkfloat (25 Jun 2015)

nickyboy said:


> The benefit of clipping into the pedals is it guarantees your feet are in the best place on the pedals and they remain there



Good for cheating at bunny hops too


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## JMAG (25 Jun 2015)

Milkfloat said:


> Good for cheating at bunny hops too



True, we can't all be Danny MacAskill can we?


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## Cuchilo (25 Jun 2015)

Maybe the pusher offer thought they had to push people off the bikes not the ramp ?
Looking at the horrible vid again , The pusher offer didn't actual push off . She just let go . Ive only done a few club TT's but always get a shove at the start . If I was expecting a shove and didnt get one then I can see why this happened .


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## Mr Celine (25 Jun 2015)

Citius said:


> Those studies show that power is mainly produced on the downstroke - and that pulling-up and the 'scraping' - and even the 'pedalling in circles' thing - are largely ineffective in terms of power production.



How much power on the downstroke do you develp when your foot has been bounced off the pedal by the typical British road surface?


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## Citius (25 Jun 2015)

Mr Celine said:


> How much power on the downstroke do you develp when your foot has been bounced off the pedal by the typical British road surface?



No idea - but it sounds like a good reason to be clipped in though...


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## jonny jeez (25 Jun 2015)

Cyclist33 said:


> Conversely many people think being clipped in makes you faster or a better amateur cyclist, which it doesn't.


Does.


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## jonny jeez (25 Jun 2015)

pauldavid said:


> 2; refusing to use the start ramp built in the front garden for the start of my commute. .



Solid advice, I would add that if you are tempted, try to ride "DOWN" the ramp, not across it.


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## jonny jeez (25 Jun 2015)

Drago said:


> Correction. He'd be a lot better off if he actually learned to ride properly with clipless.



ouch, seems harsh...he looks like a pro, he's got a colourful kit on, plastic frame, overshoes and his wheel are proper fat. He's just not so good at the whole ramp thing is all.


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## Apollonius (25 Jun 2015)

How are you going to (safely) use hard-soled cycling shoes without clips of some sort? Surely there can be little doubt that the hard sole gives an advantage in terms of power and comfort.
It is a horrible experience slipping off flat pedals and encountering the crossbar on the descent!


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## Pat "5mph" (25 Jun 2015)

Afnug said:


> I don't think many reading this forum are in danger of falling of a TT starting ramp


So that's what that ramp was?
I thought it was some new daredevil challenge sport!
Yes, one can safely assume nothing like that could ever happen to me.


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## Cuchilo (25 Jun 2015)

Pat "5mph" said:


> So that's what that ramp was?
> I thought it was some new daredevil challenge sport!


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## jonny jeez (25 Jun 2015)

Pat "5mph" said:


> So that's what that ramp was?
> I thought it was some new daredevil challenge sport!
> Yes, one can safely assume nothing like that could ever happen to me.


Never say never Pat


....although....


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## jhawk (26 Jun 2015)

Arms aren't supposed to bend that way. Ouch. I ride with flat pedals and have had the ol' pedal-eats-shin... I may look into clipless, but with my balance, it's a recipe for disaster.


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## Tojo (26 Jun 2015)

I used to use the old cleats when I started serious cycling in my teens and they were downright dangerous clip on the to of back of a rat trap pedal and do your toe clip strap up, no way of getting out on a quick stop, needless to say I have no problem at all with modern clip-less pedals (as the name implies, no Fecking toe-clips)........


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## Tojo (26 Jun 2015)

jhawk said:


> Arms aren't supposed to bend that way. Ouch, ..





Unfortunately they do though when in my case someone pulls out on you and bounces a Honda Fireblade back on top of you.........


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## Cathryn (26 Jun 2015)

Eeek...my cycling shoes/clip-in pedals arrived today. This is not filling me with excitement and positivity. Last time I tried to ride clipped in, it freaked me out so much I got myself pregnant. I am too old to pull that trick a second time.


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## jhawk (26 Jun 2015)

Cathryn said:


> Last time I tried to ride clipped in, it freaked me out so much I got myself pregnant. I am too old to pull that trick a second time.



Not sure if euphemism or serious point about what is I'm sure a fascinating story about clipped-in cycling and pregnancy.


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## Cathryn (26 Jun 2015)

jhawk said:


> Not sure if euphemism or serious point about what is I'm sure a fascinating story about clipped-in cycling and pregnancy.


The timing was coincidental, but I was glad to have an excuse to stop the clipping in.


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## coffeejo (26 Jun 2015)

Cathryn said:


> The timing was coincidental, but I was glad to have an excuse to stop the clipping in.


Glad to hear it. I read plenty of warnings about falling over sideways in front of your mates but nothing about other effects on female cyclists. 

Make sure they're set to the loosest setting and practice unclipping the foot you're most likely to put down when you stop. When you do need to stop, make yourself unclip in advance and remember to lean that way. It will soon become second nature, promise. Ask anyone who knows me about my elegance, grace and balance on a bike, but even I cope with being clipped in.


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## Falco Frank (26 Jun 2015)

Im really shocked about pulling up on pedals not helping 

I must read more on the effect for Recumbent riders.

Personally, I simply dont feel comfortable WITHOUT clipless these days, tried my MTB and 'bent a few times only using Shimano spinning class shoes and actually felt unsafe!


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## recumbentpanda (26 Jun 2015)

Disclaimer: I have never ridden clipless, although I did have Christophe toe-clips and straps on my old upright. Most of us 'horizontalists' who use clipless do so not only for the usual reasons cited by 'uprightists', but also to avoid the dreaded 'leg-suck' phenomenon which can menace riders of recumbent trikes and some of the lower two-wheelers. 

As to the effect on pedalling, I think the recumbent experience may have something to tell all cyclists on pedalling technique: first of all, the recumbent posture eliminates the possibility of using your bodyweight on the pedals which simplifies the equation somewhat. Now, my particular bent has a rather less than rigid frame. It has other advantages, so I don't mind, but power transfer is not great. Add in that, bendy frame or not, one can put massive amounts of power down by pushing back against the seat. With those factors in mind consider the following experience: when trying to accelerate in a straight line, if I consciously push on the power stroke, acceleration does ensue, but it is slow and grudging. If, on the other hand, I don't try to consciously push, but just focus on 'unweighting' the non-drive stroke foot, the old dear surges forward as if fitted with an electric motor. From this I conclude that pushing, creates a spiky, uneven power-curve which flexes the frame, delaying power transfer, and incurring frictional losses. Unweighting, on the other hand simply stops your feet from fighting each other, and allows a normal, smooth power curve to have its full effect. 

I propose that for the vast majority of cyclists, this is a much more effective way to think about good pedalling technique than stuff about 'pedalling in circles'. 

I remain agnostic on clipless, and have done many hundreds of happy bent-miles on flats. I hate wearing any kind of shoes in 'real life', and hard-soled cycling shoes look to me like medieval instruments of torture!:-)

Happy riding, and keep unweighting the non-drive side!


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## Yellow Saddle (26 Jun 2015)

Milkfloat said:


> Take a look here - https://wattbike.com/uk/blog/post/whats_in_a_pedal_revolution_wattbike_has_the_answer
> 
> I notice that on a power meter - my pattern is relatively good (between peanut and elite), when concentrating on my pedal stroke (elite) my average watts go up and can be sustained longer. I also have a slight bias on my right leg due to sciatica on my left side which I am trying to overcome. It could just be that by concentrating on my pedal stroke I subconsciously put in more effort, but then I would expect endurance to suffer which it does not. For me - I find it a lot harder to pedal in circles on flats (the pesky times I forget to take my SPDs to the gym), again here even if I am concentrating, I cannot get the optimal pattern. I do not consciously ever pull up on the pedals at all.
> 
> ...


You are missing nothing. The wattbike is incredible for showing you how you can improve your pedal stroke and to illustrate that there is no way you'll do it without being clipped in. I don't think anyone who hasn't tried a session on one of these machines are qualified to dismiss the power benefits of being clipped in.

That doesn't mean you have to be clipped in to enjoy your bike, commute or even ride semi-competitively. Getting full benefit from clipped in isn't easy, it requires a lot of practice and dedication and indeed, measurement and feedback. Getting that perfect peanut-shape on the graph isn't easy.


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## Yellow Saddle (26 Jun 2015)

nickyboy said:


> All this pedalling circles, pulling upwards stuff is nonsense. You only pull upwards if you're doing some humungous effort up a short hill....so about 0.01% of time on the bike
> 
> The benefit of clipping into the pedals is it guarantees your feet are in the best place on the pedals and they remain there



I disagree in an agreeable kind of way. It isn't really about pulling upwards but by smoothing out the piston-like action of the legs. Most elite cyclists won't show a perfect power circle when measured but most untrained amateurs show distinct pulses of power associated only with about 90 degrees of the full circle. As you train and concentrate on the stroke to make it longer, the 90 degree pulse stretches towards 180 degrees and the feeling is one of powerfully wiping your foot on a mat just after the initial power pulse. The result over two legs is a more even stroke. This becomes more and more important as your cadence goes up and you want to develop a fast leg speed for sprinting. On a fixie, the lack of this skill presents as a rider bouncing wildly on the saddle. This is because the resting leg isn't relaxing quickly enough and power from the working leg is used to bounce the rider upwards.
A gadget called a Power Crank that was popular some years ago demonstrated some pedaling inefficiencies quite nicely. It had some sort of ratchet in the crank that would fold and give way if your one leg was pushing the other one up. In other words, if you weren't pulling whilst pushing and actually using the pushing leg to raise the non-pushing leg, it would alert you. Whether this did anything useful other than to demonstrate that your one leg always gets a bit of a free ride on the up stroke is open to debate, but it did show that the "resting" leg relies on the other one to push it up.


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## Citius (26 Jun 2015)

Wattbike uses a single downstream measurement of pedal forces, so is not able to provide independent or accurate left/right leg data. In other words, it's not giving you data which is anything like as reliable as you think it is, in this particular context. Certainly not reliable enough to make assumptions on pedal stroke technique and 'pulling up'...

As a overall power measurement devicde, it's as good as any other. But don't take the left/right leg stuff too seriously, because the device only guesses it.


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## Citius (26 Jun 2015)

Yellow Saddle said:


> I disagree in an agreeable kind of way. It isn't really about pulling upwards but by smoothing out the piston-like action of the legs. Most elite cyclists won't show a perfect power circle when measured but most untrained amateurs show distinct pulses of power associated only with about 90 degrees of the full circle. As you train and concentrate on the stroke to make it longer, the 90 degree pulse stretches towards 180 degrees and the feeling is one of powerfully wiping your foot on a mat just after the initial power pulse. The result over two legs is a more even stroke. This becomes more and more important as your cadence goes up and you want to develop a fast leg speed for sprinting. On a fixie, the lack of this skill presents as a rider bouncing wildly on the saddle. This is because the resting leg isn't relaxing quickly enough and power from the working leg is used to bounce the rider upwards.



YS - I'm going to have to disagree with you here (assuming I've understood you correctly!). The studies I linked to show that elite-level cyclists actually push more on the downstroke and less on the upstroke than any other level of rider. In other words, they're faster because they pedal harder, not because they have some mastered some mystical pedal technique.


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## Yellow Saddle (26 Jun 2015)

Citius said:


> YS - I'm going to have to disagree with you here (assuming I've understood you correctly!). The studies I linked to show that elite-level cyclists actually push more on the downstroke and less on the upstroke than any other level of rider. In other words, they're faster because they pedal harder, not because they have some mastered some mystical pedal technique.


I don't think we differ. They certainly don't pull as hard as they push, but if you look at their power graphs (do try and find a simulation online for the Wattbike system's graphs) their power strokes is longer that yours and mine. We pulse up and down and nothing in-between. They pulse up and down, but have a longer lead-up to the highest point in the stroke. If you can imagine it on a graph, our strokes would be two sharp spikes per crank revolution, theirs two sine waves which overlap. Imagine the notion of wiping your feet rather than stomping on the mat.


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## Yellow Saddle (26 Jun 2015)

Citius said:


> Wattbike uses a single downstream measurement of pedal forces, so is not able to provide independent or accurate left/right leg data. In other words, it's not giving you data which is anything like as reliable as you think it is, in this particular context. Certainly not reliable enough to make assumptions on pedal stroke technique and 'pulling up'...
> 
> As a overall power measurement devicde, it's as good as any other. But don't take the left/right leg stuff too seriously, because the device only guesses it.


Yes, it guesses it but your brain quickly tells you which graph is which. All you have to do is relax the one leg and you'll see a change in the graph that corresponds with the leg. We need no more accuracy than a good guess. After all (joking here), it is always at least half right.


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## Citius (26 Jun 2015)

Certainly you'll see a change if you alter your pedal action, but the left/right graphs are not reliable accounts of what is happening, because left/right leg data is not being measured independently. In other words, the graphs are nothing more than just pretty pics...


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## Bodhbh (26 Jun 2015)

JMAG said:


> That reminds me of this




What is that showing? - Joe Bloggs on a road bike out accelerates a TdF rider on a hybrid?


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## Yellow Saddle (26 Jun 2015)

I am now going to disagree with myself where I agreed with @Citius

What I said is not true and my memory failed me. The Wattbike machine measures force on each crank independently and you don't have to guess which is which.

@Citius have a look at this video to see what I mean,

https://wattbike.com/uk/guide/cycling_tests/pedalling_technique_test/what_the_polar_view_shapes_mean


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## Citius (26 Jun 2015)

YS - the point is that Wattbike measures force downstream from the pedals and only knows the location/speed of the cranks twice in every 360deg rotation. The rest is just guesswork. It is not measuring crank force independently, so the graphs are meaningless from a training analysis perspective.

There's no question that the Wattbike gives you two graphs (one per leg) - but the data is gives you is not worth a jot, as it is not derived from a truly independent measurement. The Wattbike is a great tool for many things, but it doesn't give you independent pedal stroke analysis in the way you think it does. Plenty of discussion over on BR and other forums, training blogs, etc, about this.

Interesting link here: http://alex-cycle.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/left-right-out-of-balance.html


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## PhilDawson8270 (26 Jun 2015)

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNedIJBZpgM


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (26 Jun 2015)

Sausage or peanut


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## Drago (26 Jun 2015)

GCN couldn't do science if you shoved it up their arses and gave them a mirror on a stick to go find it.


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## Citius (26 Jun 2015)

Drago said:


> GCN couldn't do science if you shoved it up their arses and gave them a mirror on a stick to go find it.



They did say in the vid that it 'wasn't proper science' - but ironically it did correlate with what many other studies have found. Which bits do you disagree with?


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## Yellow Saddle (26 Jun 2015)

Citius said:


> YS - the point is that Wattbike measures force downstream from the pedals and only knows the location/speed of the cranks twice in every 360deg rotation. The rest is just guesswork. It is not measuring crank force independently, so the graphs are meaningless from a training analysis perspective.
> 
> There's no question that the Wattbike gives you two graphs (one per leg) - but the data is gives you is not worth a jot, as it is not derived from a truly independent measurement. The Wattbike is a great tool for many things, but it doesn't give you independent pedal stroke analysis in the way you think it does. Plenty of discussion over on BR and other forums, training blogs, etc, about this.
> 
> Interesting link here: http://alex-cycle.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/left-right-out-of-balance.html



OK, it seems as if I'm out of my depth here. Let me go and check out what's what.


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## Drago (26 Jun 2015)

Citius said:


> They did say in the vid that it 'wasn't proper science' - but ironically it did correlate with what many other studies have found. Which bits do you disagree with?



The title - "GKN does Science". They're doing nothing of the sort, their methodology and analysis being so poor that any correlation with anyone else is little more than a statistical inevitability rather than a conclusion deduced.


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## Citius (26 Jun 2015)

Drago said:


> The title - "GKN does Science". They're doing nothing of the sort, their methodology and analysis being so poor that any correlation with anyone else is little more than a statistical inevitability rather than a conclusion deduced.



Their methodology and analysis seemed perfectly ok to me - treadmill, gas analysis, blood lactace - all lab measured and they presented their findings without any obvious bias and without reverting to anecdote. What was lacking (quite obviously) was a decent sample size. I would have been more concerned if their findings went against the accepted evidence - but they didn't.


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## Drago (26 Jun 2015)

Sample size is a biggie, as is the number of subjects. Even basic stuff like calibration of equipment has to be accounted for else its pointless trying to call it science. Then there's air pressure, temperature, humidity, more variables that require accounting for that I should shake a stick full of cleats at.


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## Yellow Saddle (26 Jun 2015)

OK, I'm back after reviewing the excellent link Citius provided. I was mistaken that the Wattbike uses a strain gauge on each crank, but it seems it doesn't and I understand now how they fudge the power balance graph between left and right leg.

However, the thread is about being clipped in and the debate, I think, started off as clipped-in being a way of generating more power by way of applying force more evenly throughout the pedal stroke and how being clipped in can help with that. A short little trip to work last night up a country lane perhaps demonstrated what I get out of being clipped in. I'm usually - no, always, clipped in. However, last night I just hopped on the bike in my work shoes, stomped on the mountain-style SPDs and pedaled. As soon as I applied a bit of power I felt my foot slip off backwards, which indicated that I do pull back at least a little bit. But that happened only once and my brain cottoned on to what was going on and I changed my pedal style and it didn't happen again without me even thinking about it.

From an engineering point of view, applying power over larger parts of the circle is a bit like a one-cyclinder engine vs a 6-cyclinder one. Whether the latter is more efficient (negating all the added friction from the many pistons) than the single pot popping up and down, I have to think about. My thinking is that the slow, pulsed power inputs waste energy trying to accelerate the large body with plenty of inertia in slow pulses rather than faster, smaller ones spaced out around the rotation.


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## buggi (26 Jun 2015)

screenman said:


> If you think unclipping takes a measurable time longer to put your foot down, then something is wrong, but not with the pedals or cleats.


Agree. It takes me longer to put my foot down on my MTB (flats) than my road bike (clipless) simply bcoz of how wide the pedal is. On clipless, the second you unclip, your foot is no longer on the pedal.


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