# Vehicles tooting just before passing a cyclist



## jefmcg (15 Aug 2017)

I hate it. No matter how friendly the tone of the toot, it seems assertive if not aggressive.

I only use my bell on bicycle** paths when I require action from pedestrians. If I am able to pass them with a wide berth, then I will do so without disturbing them, or maybe a nod or a "good morning" if that seems appropriate. I use the bell to warn them that I will be passing close enough to possibly startle them or to ask them to move out of the way so there is room to pass.

If a car or motorcycle toots their horn before passing, then I assume it's because of a close pass or to ask me to move out of the way. Either way it's annoying. Don't close pass me, ever. And I can hear you, you have an engine. I will move out of your way when I deem it is safe to do.

From a sidetrack in another thread

**I have a bell on one bicycle. I have been known to say "ting ting" on the others, as pedestrians seem prefer a bell.


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## stiffknees (15 Aug 2017)

I thought bells on cycle had been outlawed, cyclists on the towpath of the Kennet seem to delight in waking me from my early morning reveries by hurtling past me , no bells on bikes here, [well, mine has]


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## screenman (15 Aug 2017)

If you rode up here with the wind noise we often get then a toot on the horn is well received, not I hasten to add when they are 2 feet from your back wheel though.


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## T4tomo (15 Aug 2017)

Daftest thing I witnessed was a bell end ringing his bell to warn a horse (and rider ) he was behind them.


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## Sea of vapours (15 Aug 2017)

It really does depend on the circumstances. I'd never appreciate a toot on a horn from close behind, but I certainly do on a single track road from a good distance back. Whilst I do check behind fairly often, and whilst I can often hear approaching vehicles, wind noise can certainly obscure them and being warned that there is someone there is potentially useful. It's one of those relatively rare, perfectly valid uses of the horn (as per the Highway Code I mean) in that it simply says 'I am here' and is thus providing information, not instruction or reprimand.


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## mjr (15 Aug 2017)

jefmcg said:


> I use the bell to warn them that I will be passing close enough to possibly startle them or to ask them to move out of the way so there is room to pass.


Apply the same principles to bikes and motorists IMO: yes to warning that a pass will be safe but possibly surprising (especially if a startled walker may hurt themselves by falling into a canal or live carriageway), or to let them know that you're there rather than sneaking up behind them and joining in their conversation by speaking, but it should absolutely not be a "get aaaht of moi way".



screenman said:


> If you rode up here with the wind noise we often get then a toot on the horn is well received, not I hasten to add when they are 2 feet from your back wheel though.


The wind ain't noisy enough to hide a car for long until it's strong enough to make it difficult to ride a bike. If you think it is, maybe you have noise generators in front of your ears and should consider Cat-Ears or similar products (or not having the noise generators). Oh and looking behind one occasionally is a good idea anyway - electric cars, faster cyclists, ...


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## screenman (15 Aug 2017)

mjr said:


> Apply the same principles to bikes and motorists IMO: yes to warning that a pass will be safe but possibly surprising (especially if a startled walker may hurt themselves by falling into a canal or live carriageway), or to let them know that you're there rather than sneaking up behind them and joining in their conversation by speaking, but it should absolutely not be a "get aaaht of moi way".
> 
> 
> The wind ain't noisy enough to hide a car for long until it's strong enough to make it difficult to ride a bike. If you think it is, maybe you have noise generators in front of your ears and should consider Cat-Ears or similar products (or not having the noise generators). Oh and looking behind one occasionally is a good idea anyway - electric cars, faster cyclists, ...



Do you actually ride a bike?


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## stiffknees (15 Aug 2017)

T4tomo said:


> Daftest thing I witnessed was a bell end ringing his bell to warn a horse (and rider ) he was behind them.



I can top that.
In a 8ft wide lane an idiot car driver frantically pressing his horn button with an escaped herd of cows browsing on the banks.

Further down same lane another sounding his horn at two swans and 12 cygnets sitting in the road.

Best of all is an HGV unloading at my place in same lane, I can swear better than swans and cows.

I wish more bikes used mirrors, they are not that heavy.


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## mjr (15 Aug 2017)

stiffknees said:


> I wish more bikes used mirrors, they are not that heavy.


Most bike mirrors aren't that useful either, never quite catching the right thing in a steady image at the right time.


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## fossyant (15 Aug 2017)

Bells, mirrors etc on bikes. Oh my word, I'll go lie down.


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## fossyant (15 Aug 2017)

I feel bells are just as rude as horns.

On shared paths I slow until the other folk hear me or i say rider coming through. I then always thank them and get a 'no problem' back.

As for car horns, pips are fine but aggressive beeeeps just get the bird.


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## jefmcg (15 Aug 2017)

fossyant said:


> On shared paths I slow until the other folk hear me or i say rider coming through. I then always thank them and get a 'no problem' back.



I should correct myself: the reason I got a bell was to ring when pedestrians were moving towards the roadway without casting a glance in my direction. A ting on a bell alerts them to my presence without "accusing" them of being about to step on to the road which vocal call would do - because most of them aren't about to step out, of course.

On shared paths I also prefer to talk, but in contrast to you, I often find other path users asking "don't you have a bell?" London I guess. No eye contact and no conversation.


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## fossyant (15 Aug 2017)

Ah no probs. No issue with conversation here. Even had to chat to the collie that was herding me last night as every time I set off he'd dive in front of my wheel. His owners were calling him but he had other ideas.


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## graham bowers (15 Aug 2017)

I'm OK with non-aggresive toots that are meant to alert me to the presence of a car approaching from behind. I don't get many and can't remember being brassed of by any. The only times I toot myself when driving is when its a bunch of kids that are all over the place.

Regarding bells, I do use one to alert pedestrians I'm approaching from behind, however slowly, and then speak once they now I'm there. I ring from well back. The main reason for using a bell is I find it the best way to avoid startling them.


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## stiffknees (15 Aug 2017)

I have just found that what this pillock shouted out was "get out the farking way" which he is using as a defence of some kind.
In future I will desist from tooting and shout that instead.


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## graham bowers (15 Aug 2017)

User said:


> You might as well, because that is probably what a fair few people on the receiving end of your friendly parp parp interpret it as anyway.


All you can do is do your best.


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## jefmcg (15 Aug 2017)

Sea of vapours said:


> on a single track road from a good distance back.


Yes, this. ^^^

I always take the toot as "I'm going to need action from you to continue my journey". And on a nice wide B-road, then no you don't. Just wait until traffic clears in the other direction and pass me safely. But on a single track, I agree it's fair use, because my action is required. It's good to have a lot of warning so I can carefully move into a passing place (which are always full of crap and potholes)


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## CanucksTraveller (15 Aug 2017)

It's really a very difficult situation, since the meaning of any audible warning seems to have largely morphed in the common psyche from the 1960s "Be aware, I'm here" meaning, to the 2010s meaning of "F@cking move!" or "I don't like your driving", or similar.

On the bike I used to ping my bell (one ping only!) to warn people on pathways that I was approaching... until one too many people turned round, gave me a hurt look and told me to F off, mistaking it for agression, or a request for them to move. So I don't much use a bell now, preferring to just go dead slow, and perhaps whistle a merry tune. 

And now thanks to modern use of the horn I seem to have become that offended person on the road... I was out riding in a group on Sunday and a car approached from behind on a quiet, narrow road... I was tail end charlie, and this car gave a good loud blast on the horn. I turned round with that offended look on my face and mouthed "WHAT?" at the driver, expecting it to be the usual gesticulating, impatient and brain dead Transit driver. Except for the first time in a long time, it was a little old lady who was only warning us of her presence.


If only there was some kind of written guide to the meanings of horns, flashing lights etc, that everyone could agree to recognise. Some kind of a _code_, if you like.


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## raleighnut (15 Aug 2017)

jefmcg said:


> I hate it. No matter how friendly the tone of the toot, it seems assertive if not aggressive.
> 
> I only use my bell on bicycle** paths when I require action from pedestrians. If I am able to pass them with a wide berth, then I will do so without disturbing them, or maybe a nod or a "good morning" if that seems appropriate. I use the bell to warn them that I will be passing close enough to possibly startle them or to ask them to move out of the way so there is room to pass.
> 
> ...


I'm with you on this one, farking hate it. In fact people who know me and have 'tooted' when they saw me have been dismayed to get a single digit 'salute' in reply.


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## T4tomo (15 Aug 2017)

Pretty.clos


User said:


> That would depend on how far away he was at the time.


Pretty close to the back legs!


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## oldwheels (16 Aug 2017)

There is a distinct difference between an aggressive blast and a friendly toot. On single track roads I generally give a gentle toot as a thank you for letting me past. I have never noticed nor would I expect any adverse reaction to this. When cycling I have no objection to this behaviour. Lighten up, not all drivers are aggressive morons and in fact most are just ordinary reasonable people. Aggressive reaction to a friendly gesture simply generates dislike.


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## T4tomo (16 Aug 2017)

User said:


> In that case, agreed that is just stupid. Get the attention of the horse from a way back and ask politely if it is OK today come past, is the way.


I find the rider easier to communicate with.


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## Dan B (16 Aug 2017)

oldwheels said:


> There is a distinct difference between an aggressive blast and a friendly toot.


Unless your horn has a volume control, no there isn't. There is more aggressive and less aggressive, but 109dB is basically Too Loud for anyone who is nearby and not inside a steel-and-glass shell.


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## Profpointy (16 Aug 2017)

A semi-quaver or two can be a friendly toot but a minim is clearly agressive - or urgent warning of danger


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## gaijintendo (16 Aug 2017)

I wouldn't mind an "I'm here" toot, but I invariably get a double-I'm-about-to-do-something-reckless-toot. Usually someone about to overtake on a particular slip road into traffic.


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## oldwheels (17 Aug 2017)

My vehicle horn must have a built in volume control as I have no problem modulating the volume to suit circumstances.


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## growingvegetables (17 Aug 2017)

T4tomo said:


> Daftest thing I witnessed was a bell end ringing his bell to warn a horse (and rider ) he was behind them.


Possibly not - a rider I met told me she'd trained her horse to recognise bells. 

Daft me - I didn't ask the obvious follow-up. So I've no idea what the horse was trained to do when it heard a bell ... duuuh! And I've no idea how common that might be ... any horse riders among us?


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## snorri (17 Aug 2017)

raleighnut said:


> In fact people who know me and have 'tooted' when they saw me have been dismayed to get a single digit 'salute' in reply.


This annoys me too, but I don't do single finger signals, I just totally ignore them.


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## byegad (17 Aug 2017)

The cyclist equivalent is a too loud 'good morning' just before your pass another cyclist. I have one who does this to me on a fairly regular basis and I swear to god, one day...


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## raleighnut (17 Aug 2017)

byegad said:


> The cyclist equivalent is a too loud 'good morning' just before your pass another cyclist. I have one who does this to me on a fairly regular basis and I swear to god, one day...


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## Jimidh (17 Aug 2017)

byegad said:


> The cyclist equivalent is a too loud 'good morning' just before your pass another cyclist. I have one who does this to me on a fairly regular basis and I swear to god, one day...


...you might be fast enough to catch up!!


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## byegad (18 Aug 2017)

Jimidh said:


> ...you might be fast enough to catch up!!


No, but one day he'll miss the blind spot in my mirrors and I'll spit in his face!


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## Phaeton (18 Aug 2017)

Stupid idea


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## jefmcg (18 Aug 2017)

byegad said:


> No, but one day he'll miss the blind spot in my mirrors and I'll spit in his face!


Am I missing something. You want to spit in someone's face because they keep saying good morning to you?


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## Nigel-YZ1 (18 Aug 2017)

I find an approaching car very hard not to hear - but then that's me.
I don't like the hooted warning idea.


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## byegad (18 Aug 2017)

I'm pootling along on a quiet country road and some idiot gets as close as he can to my right ear then bellows 

*Good Morning!*

This is way too loud for such a close range, IF I see him coming up behind and he knows it, he says nothing, IF he's managed to creep up unobserved it's the bellow in my ear. I'm convinced that he does it on purpose. The volume he use would be fine for 50 yards away but f***ing stupid at close range. This is not a one off and one day I'll get him one way or another! Also if we meet heading in different directions he says nothing.

For the record I say hello to all passing fellow cyclists and nobody who answers, most do but not all, is anywhere near as loud as this twit.


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## al78 (18 Aug 2017)

I don't tend to say anything. If I am on a shared use path I just wait behind pedestrians if there is no safe way to overtake, if necessary get off the bike and walk behind them. The click of unclipping sometimes alerts them to my presence and they move aside to let me past. With horse riders, I tend to maintain some distance between myself and the horse, the rider often sees me at some point, but if not, I just wait for a decent overtaking opportunity and pull right out to the right side of the road and overtake carefully. No different to when I am driving a car. In the rare situation the horse looks spooked I dismount, stand up and say something in an attempt to identify myself as a harmless human to the horse. I used to attempt to make my presence known to pedestrians with a subtle ting of the bell or a polite greeting, but found it was a waste of time, most people are wrapped up in their private universe which only extends half a meter from their body, so the greeting was mostly ignored. If they are using a smartphone, then I don't exist.


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## albion (18 Aug 2017)

T4tomo said:


> Daftest thing I witnessed was a bell end ringing his bell to warn a horse (and rider ) he was behind them.



Even worse is when the rider expects you to have rung that said bell!


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## Arjimlad (21 Aug 2017)

Reading this has reminded me of Grandma & Grandpa picking me up from school. I never knew if they'd be there or not but they often used to wait for me outside school & give me a lift home. Happy times. BUT ... Grandpa ALWAYS tooted the horn when approaching cyclists from behind - i.e. my fellow pupils - he did it to warn them he was there and I suppose that they were reckless schoolkids who would weave about overtaking each other. I was so embarrassed I'd duck down in the back of the car. It was just something he did by force of habit. AFAIK he never hit a cyclist.


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## mjr (22 Aug 2017)

al78 said:


> If I am on a shared use path I just wait behind pedestrians if there is no safe way to overtake, if necessary get off the bike and walk behind them.


Another paid-up member of the Stockholm Syndrome Cycling Club?



al78 said:


> The click of unclipping sometimes alerts them to my presence and they move aside to let me past.


You shouldn't sneak up on people so that you're so close that they can hear your cleats click!  Next you'll be saying that you just join in their conversation without warning...



al78 said:


> I used to attempt to make my presence known to pedestrians with a subtle ting of the bell or a polite greeting, but found it was a waste of time, most people are wrapped up in their private universe which only extends half a meter from their body, so the greeting was mostly ignored. If they are using a smartphone, then I don't exist.


Doesn't it get depressing hating walkers that much?


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## Phaeton (22 Aug 2017)

albion said:


> Even worse is when the rider expects you to have rung that said bell!


Why would they? I know of no horse rider who expects a bleeding idiot on a bike to come up behind them ringing a bell, most stupid idea I've heard all year.


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## growingvegetables (22 Aug 2017)

Phaeton said:


> Why would they? I know of no horse rider who expects a bleeding idiot on a bike to come up behind them ringing a bell, most stupid idea I've heard all year.


No evidence there of having talked to horse-riders.

Fair dos. I've only had the conversation once wth a horse-rider. And, if I'm honest, was so gob-smacked at her suggestion that she'd trained her horse to recognise a bell, that her horse was happier to hear a bell, that I just couldn't think! If I'm even more honest, my main thought was "Sh!t - maybe I should put the bell back on my bike!"

But we're back to my earlier post ... I don't want to hear cyclists' thoughts. I want to hear horse-riders' thoughts.


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## Turdus philomelos (23 Aug 2017)

Personally, I hate it. I am that skittish mare.
Vehicle horns always gives me a terrible fright which could cause an accident.
With the most hellish wind noise in my ears I am aware of motorists behind.
Even electric vehicles are detectable with their unmistakable whine and the noise of their tyres on that cheap, hellish road surface councils are now throwing down everywhere on my routes.


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## mustang1 (23 Aug 2017)

The only thing I'll add is quite often j can't hear a car about to overtake due to wind noise.

Edit: darnit I see someone already mentioned wind noise.

One thing I do when approaching pedestrians is pedal backwards for a second, then forward, then back, then fwd. This way the pedestrians can hear me approaching, they can tell it's a bike and they move to one side. 

Sometimes pedestrians think bells are more of a demand to get out of the way... I think?


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## screenman (23 Aug 2017)

Turdus philomelos said:


> Personally, I hate it. I am that skittish mare.
> Vehicle horns always gives me a terrible fright which could cause an accident.
> With the most hellish wind noise in my ears I am aware of motorists behind.
> Even electric vehicles are detectable with their unmistakable whine and the noise of their tyres on that cheap, hellish road surface councils are now throwing down everywhere on my routes.



On a windy headwind day can you hear a car a hundreds yards behind you, must admit that I cannot and welcome a small pip on the hooter from back there.


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## Phaeton (23 Aug 2017)

growingvegetables said:


> No evidence there of having talked to horse-riders.
> But we're back to my earlier post ... I don't want to hear cyclists' thoughts. I want to hear horse-riders' thoughts.


Maybe clarification required then, been around horses/horse riders for 40+ years, including breaking to harness for use on roads, it's a stupid idea, a polite call is far better if anything is required, but a good rider/driver will already know you're approaching.


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## ianrauk (23 Aug 2017)

User13710 said:


> Horses tend to like a voice, then they know it's a person. Noises like bells, hooting, engines, clicking cleats, ticky freewheels, could all be a predator creeping up, as far as the horse is concerned.




I did ask a horse rider a few years back what was the best thing a cyclist could do and she said exactly this. A voice over anything else.


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## byegad (23 Aug 2017)

As a recumbent rider, meeting a dobbin coming towards me, it's a no brainer to stop sit up and speak to the rider. Dobbin and his four legged mates have no idea what a recumbent is and will shy and skitter on siting me on the move.
Catching one is more of a problem, I try a toot of my squeeze bulb horn from very far back, but this is usually not heard, as I get within calling range I call out:- 'Am I OK to come through?' Then the fun starts, some riders will wave me on and I go to the edge of the road while putting on a bit of a spurt. Others will ask me to wait and go into a field, turn off or in one case dismount and hold the horse's head while talking to it.
I keep up a chatter about the weather, the price of fish or anything else so the horse knows I'm human(ish).
The last thing any of us wants is the horse hitting us and the second last thing we want is the rider getting unseated so I'm ultra cautious around them. An equestrian friend once told me the secret about horses, she said:- 'Remember that they are all crackers!' Another rider I spoke to stunned me by telling me that his Hunter, which he often rides on roads, is terrified of concrete!


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## growingvegetables (23 Aug 2017)

Phaeton said:


> Maybe clarification required then, been around horses/horse riders for 40+ years, including breaking to harness for use on roads, it's a stupid idea, a polite call is far better if anything is required, but a good rider/driver will already know you're approaching.


Ah - thank you . That bit of the jigsaw was missing ... or I'd missed it earlier in the thread.

Fair enough - the woman I met was unusual in having trained her horse to listen for bells. Though it was strange that day, but too late to find out what she meant.


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## mjr (23 Aug 2017)

mustang1 said:


> One thing I do when approaching pedestrians is pedal backwards for a second, then forward, then back, then fwd. This way the pedestrians can hear me approaching, they can tell it's a bike and they move to one side.


A happy bike is near-silent. You really ought to get that noisy freewheel fixed 



mustang1 said:


> Sometimes pedestrians think bells are more of a demand to get out of the way... I think?


A minority do, but it's not the general view. All it means is "I am here" so you don't surprise them. A decade ago, British Waterways had a "two tings" campaign asking cyclists to ring their bells twice when approaching other towpath users, while Sustrans occasionally do things like Ring Your Bell. This is one cycling topic that the Highway Code is correct on: rule 66.



User13710 said:


> Horses tend to like a voice, then they know it's a person. Noises like bells, hooting, engines, clicking cleats, ticky freewheels, could all be a predator creeping up, as far as the horse is concerned.


Yep. If I ring the bell, it's from very far away to try to catch the ear of the rider. As I get near, I put the bike in a fairly low gear (to avoid hub gear or freewheel pawls ticking), sit up and say hello to the rider as I pass as wide as I can. I really don't want to be anywhere near an animal that size if it panics!


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## mjr (24 Aug 2017)

User said:


> How do you manage to catch the ear of the rider without the horse noticing? Have you seen the size of their ears?


The horse usually notices but none yet have reacted to a bell so far away. (Hardly surprising, as they must hear all sorts of noises far off.) I wouldn't dream of ringing it loudly close by.


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## Nigel-YZ1 (24 Aug 2017)

For horse riders I say hello and ask them if it's ok to pass.
I did hear the theory that a cyclist looks like a predator so talking makes you less threatening. I asked a lady on a horse and she said she'd not heard of that but was very happy I'd thought about how to deal with the big critters.
I pass a guy regularly in Wharncliffe woods whose horse does revenge overtakes sortof. Whenever I pass it speeds up. The rider told me the horse was trained to follow a cyclist. They're the friendliest people I come across.

Just using my voice has got me one complaint in the last 17 years.


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## Ming the Merciless (25 Aug 2017)

A toot usually means please pull in the centre of the road and stop. You dropped something back there and I'd like to hand it over to you. Doesn't it?


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## mjr (25 Aug 2017)

YukonBoy said:


> A toot usually means please pull in the centre of the road and stop. You dropped something back there and I'd like to hand it over to you. Doesn't it?


Maybe you jest, but I've had that happen and then the driver of the Fiesta handed me my gloves back. I was in the habit of taking them out of my pockets and putting them on as I started riding, but that time I'd ridden off with them on top of my pannier and they'd gone flying at a mini-roundabout!


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## Shut Up Legs (4 Sep 2017)

YukonBoy said:


> A toot usually means please pull in the centre of the road and stop. You dropped something back there and I'd like to hand it over to you. Doesn't it?


It sure does!


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## Bodhbh (5 Sep 2017)

mjr said:


> Maybe you jest, but I've had that happen and then the driver of the Fiesta handed me my gloves back. I was in the habit of taking them out of my pockets and putting them on as I started riding, but that time I'd ridden off with them on top of my pannier and they'd gone flying at a mini-roundabout!



It can do and it's happened several times. At least once, like you because I'd left them on top of the bike and rode off. It's why I hold my breath and don't immediately go into battle mode if someone toots me from behind no matter how much it instictively puts my back up.


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## byegad (5 Sep 2017)

User said:


> They must hate recumbent bikes.



They usually do!
The theories as to why are many and varied, but I subscribe to two.
1. When horses fight other horses they tend to rear up and wave their front legs at each other attempting to make a hit with their paws/hands/hooves/hoofs whatever. As most, but not all recumbents have the rider's legs whirling about in front of the bike, the theory says they think we are threatening them!
2. Back in the days when things hunted horses, they were invariably to be seen crouching close to the ground an approaching them. Again a lot of recumbents meet this to some extent.


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## jefmcg (5 Sep 2017)

byegad said:


> Back in the days when things hunted horses, they were invariably to be seen crouching close to the ground an approaching them. Again a lot of recumbents meet this to some extent.


Recumbent riders are like panthers?


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## byegad (5 Sep 2017)

Only to horses, which are one of the silliest animals.


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## al78 (7 Sep 2017)

mjr said:


> Another paid-up member of the Stockholm Syndrome Cycling Club?



What are you on about?



mjr said:


> You shouldn't sneak up on people so that you're so close that they can hear your cleats click!  Next you'll be saying that you just join in their conversation without warning...



I don't "sneak up on people", I just go at their pace ten meters or so behind, and either overtake when there is sufficient room, or get off and walk. My cleats do sometimes click loudly, and on an off-road route there is little ambient noise.



mjr said:


> Doesn't it get depressing hating walkers that much?



If you say so. I wouldn't know as I don't hate walkers.


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