# Discrimination and Loss of "freedom of movement" for poor and disabled



## disabled rider (2 Oct 2012)

Ok, First off.
Prelude:

Please take the time to read my first post in the introductions of new members, There are some very important points, in there, to keep in mind, while reading any of my threads or posts, that I may add to this forum.

I do have an agenda, by starting this thread. To all intent and purpose it has direct relevance to my situation even when it may seam off topic. Some of the stuff that may appear off topic, is me simply trying to explain to you, the situation I find myself in, in the real world, that has a direct or indirect impact to this thread and cycling.

I also need you, to understand, that my intelligence is much higher than by grammar. I know this and I try to adapt , by sometimes saying the same things, in different ways, to try to get you folks to understand, what it is I am thinking and trying to convey.

when quoting my posts and replying to my posts, DO NOT break the segments up. It completely changes the contextual meaning of what I am saying and will sidetrack this thread faster than screaming fire in a crowded theater. Also by side tracking this thread you would be putting me in further danger of being killed by delaying actions of people advocating for my rights. I will give an example from a previous segment above to show how doing so completely changes the meaning.

Quote *"I do have an agenda by starting this thread"* By quoting only this sentence out of that segment, could be viewed that my intention is to "TROLL" this site. Or some other ulterior motive.
When quoting the whole segment, which also includes the explanation, of why I am starting the thread, you see I am *not* actually trying to troll anything at all, other than trying to deal with something that is threatening my freedom and right to live. Which involves bicycling.

This is going to take a bit of explaining in regards to what the thread title means, and how that rights and my life are being threatened. Please be patient, it is going to be a multi posting with lots of details, Of background on my situation regarding using bicycle for sole means of transportation. Background on me personally, to try to help establish a point of view, and perspective, different than the majority of people. Detail on Minnesota laws regarding biking. Links to other sites that do better job explaining things than I could.(I DO NOT quote and link blindly,I read the content before linking to ensure of its relevance and as source of information, it has relevance, just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it is off topic or not relevant, it just means you do not understand what I am talking about, nor do you see the connection, due possibly, to looking at it from a totally different perspective or view. Simply having different views doesn't necessarily mean one is wrong and other is right, they could both be right, or both be wrong. That is what discussion and debate is about.)

Note to the Moderators: I will be discussing sensitive issues, It is NOT intended, as attacks, provoking of emotional responses, etc. There will be some conflict of views, especially, when I discuss the "exclusion factor", which is one of the worse forms of discrimination, in the damage, it does to the person that is being excluded. Guilty parties, of the exclusion, are going to be extra "vocal" on trying to get me banned. Reason I mention this, is I have already been permanently banned and silenced by at least 3 other sites, when discussing this very real and normalized form of ("DEVASTATING" form of discrimination). It is the discomfort factor, that is the cause of the banning. Not the merits or discredits of what I am actually saying. So Please do not silence the voice of Advocacy for the rights of the poor and disabled to exercise their rights of freedom of movements, By use of bicycles, which is the most cost effective and time efficient means of transportation available to us at our level in society..

I came here, because I am having a hard time, trying to find a place to speak out, against actions that are putting my life at risk and destroying my right to freedom of movement.Which also impacts other Americans in my shoes all over the USA. I came here to speak to the people, when our leaders are failing to listen or even acknowledge that there is even a problem that makes us 3rd class citizens or puts our lives in EXTREME danger. 

This next cap sentence is NOT shouting it is simply in caps to ensure you get something that is important. THIS THREAD HAS DIRECT AND INDIRECT DETAILS TO BICYCLES AND CYCLING. IT WILL TAKE TIME TO EXPLAIN THE DETAILS AND HOW IT CONNECTS. PLEASE BEAR WITH ME.

This thread is not really meant to be responded to _*yet*_. I haven't even gotten a chance to start filling in background info, much-less than the plea for help. It is also to test the water to see what kind of moderators manage this site and the tolerance level of said moderators. I do not want to be wasting what little of my valuable time, I have left, advocating and trying to seek help, If I am going to be silenced by moderators. early on or part way through..

Moderators am I going to have an issue with you, when discussing discrimination against the poor and disabled cyclists?

Ok been at this for a while and its late, I am tired, so signing off for now

Disabled rider
PS stay tuned for extremely detailed background on me as a foundation of perspective in step one of this thread.


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## sabian92 (2 Oct 2012)

I assume "Too Much Information".

As for me I see it as exclusion through lack of affordable options. What's a disabled trike (or any sort of variation thereof including tandems designed for one able bodied and one disabled person) going for these days, thousands? Who can afford that?


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## deptfordmarmoset (2 Oct 2012)

OP, are the issues you wish to discuss specific to Minnesota law? If they are then you may have more success addressing the US equivalent of our excellent ''Wheels for Wellbeing,'' whose mission is all about inclusivity for cyclists. I'm not trying to ghettoise here, it's just that the majority of members on this forum are based in the UK, and we have virtually no power to influence the law in a US state.


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## Drago (2 Oct 2012)

I'm registered disabled due to loss of function in my right arm. As far as cycling goes I've never encountered a seconds discrimination.

As for America, I must confess to find it hard to care very much.


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## Red Light (2 Oct 2012)

Agree, too much information and I still don't know after reading your long post above what this is all about other than it might have something to do with disability and there is another similarly long post somewhere I'm supposed to search out and read. The thought of similar long rambling posts to follow is a big turn off. If you want to get people to pay attention you have get your thoughts into what is known as an elevator pitch - something short and to the point which brings out the key points of what you need people to know not the War and Peace in three volumes version you are proposing. Now that takes a lot of effort - as Mark Twain said "Sorry I wrote you a long letter, I didn't have time to write a short one" - but if you don't I'm sorry but everyone is just going to turn off and you will be posting into a vacuum of nobody reading.

Once you have people engaged through an elevator pitch, you can then develop the points out of it but long rambling texts which tell us what we can and can't do I'm pretty sure will get you nowhere.

Good luck.


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## Mr Haematocrit (2 Oct 2012)

I'm not aware of discrimination practices regarding cycling in the UK, I know someone who has a hand bike and have ridden with him. He's not prohibited from cycling on the public highways and appears to have the same access as myself. He most certainly have never mentioned to me, or discussed discrimination from a cycling perspective with me. I personally do not view him as having a disability as this term suggests someone to be lacking ability and I do not find this to be the case, he can cycle for serious distances and climb hills, I view him as any other cyclist .. In fact the biggest challenge I understand comes from having to deal with punctures.


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## mattobrien (2 Oct 2012)

One of the most unusual posts I have ever read. Lots of rule, do's and don'ts and much mentioning of trolling, or the fact that this will not be it. And heaven forbid if you want to quote something without first reading the rule book on quoting...

As far as I can see, a lot of words saying very little.

I will watch further posts with equal anticipation and bemusement


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## black'n'yellow (2 Oct 2012)

mattobrien said:


> One of the most unusual posts I have ever read. Lots of rule, do's and don'ts and much mentioning of trolling, or the fact that this will not be it. And heaven forbid if you want to quote something without first reading the rule book on quoting...


 
I



mattobrien said:


> As far as I can see, a lot of words saying very little.


 
completely



mattobrien said:


> I will watch further posts with equal anticipation and bemusement


 
agree


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## 4F (2 Oct 2012)

Is this going to be a helmet thread ?


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## Mugshot (2 Oct 2012)

mattobrien said:


> One of the most unusual posts I have ever read. Lots of rule, do's and don'ts and much mentioning of trolling, or the fact that this will not be it. And heaven forbid if you want to quote something without first reading the rule book on quoting...
> 
> As far as I can see, a lot of words saying very little.
> 
> I will watch further posts with equal anticipation and bemusement


+1
I read it and feel as if I've been told off, but I don't know what for


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## hoopdriver (2 Oct 2012)

Mugshot said:


> +1
> I read it and feel as if I've been told off, but I don't know what for


Yup, me too.

Weird.


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## hoopdriver (2 Oct 2012)

I can hardly wait for the 'extremely detailed' description of himself and his motives which he promises us is to come.


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## numbnuts (2 Oct 2012)

I too am registered disabled due to  _(you don't need to know) _


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## MrJamie (2 Oct 2012)

I'm thoroughly confused having read through that post. I can only presume you've had a very poor experience on other internet forums hence the strange post instructing us how to read and reply to it. Im intrigued though, i didnt think cycling was discriminatory towards poor/disabled.


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## Cyclopathic (2 Oct 2012)

I thought cyclists were discriminated whether they were disables or not.


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## Arjimlad (2 Oct 2012)

What's it all about ? Can't make it out ... please explain the discriminatory acts or omissions complained of ? From your posts they may be regulatory in the US ?


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## TheJDog (2 Oct 2012)

/ignore


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## ohnovino (2 Oct 2012)




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## mattobrien (2 Oct 2012)

I do often find that I am discriminated against by my wife who has on more that one occasion laughed at me while in full lycra, does that count?

On the other hand my eldest daughter (4) has seen me in said lycra gear and said "you look cool daddy", which I know I don't. I don't think she is old enough to grasp irony, so I am wondering if she is discriminating against me or me her? Too much to comprehend.

Cycling on the other hand, I have found to be a very inclusive past time. Other cyclists have always seemed very encouraging and supportive of newbies, be they rich, poor, fit or otherwise. I do find it transcends many barriers and think that the world is a better place for it.


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## Mugshot (2 Oct 2012)




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## Oldspice (2 Oct 2012)

I've read your other posts. Why are you so angry? You still have not explained why the state is trying to do you harm or why you must ride out of necessity (even though impractical at times).

Can you just get to the point and state what your beef is with out all the bits in between, maybe someone here may be able to help or point you in the right direction.

As far as riding in the snow on the pavements. Life happens and sometimes you just can't ride constantly and you just have to walk. The state may say that home owners have to clear there pavement within a set time frame, but life gets in the way and you just have to deal with it the best way you can.


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## Norm (2 Oct 2012)

I'm most impressed with those who claim to have read all of the OP. It was beyond my abilities.


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## Longshot (2 Oct 2012)

I never knew that 'attention whore' was an acknowledged disability. You learn something every day.


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## ianrauk (2 Oct 2012)

Bottom line is....the OP will have to adhere to and post within Cycle Chat forum rules, not the other way round.


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## Oldspice (2 Oct 2012)

Norm said:


> I'm most impressed with those who claim to have read all of the OP. It was beyond my abilities.


 
I'm a very talented woman

PS all his posts have been in the early morning, between 5-7am


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## Mugshot (2 Oct 2012)

Oldspice said:


> PS all his posts have been in the early morning, between 5-7am


He has been here since though


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## sidevalve (2 Oct 2012)

As to the OP, Yer what ???


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## Drago (2 Oct 2012)

numbnuts said:


> I too am registered disabled due to  _(you don't need to know) _


The Nuremburgs?


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## Deleted member 23692 (2 Oct 2012)

I sit on the 2 steering groups through work - one is for a disabled cycling centre, and the other is a 'social inclusion through cycling' project. Both are very successful (award winning), so I might have a level of expert knowledge on the subject.

However, I'm not sure what this thread is about


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## Crosstrailer (2 Oct 2012)

4F said:


> Is this going to be a helmet thread ?


 
What bike helmets or cat helmets ?


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## Crosstrailer (2 Oct 2012)

While I am awaiting the full details with interest (not trolling, I have disabled immediate members of my family) I would say that sometimes it isn't cool to type out in full *all* of the thoughts and words in your head.........


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## Deleted member 23692 (2 Oct 2012)

Aah.......... just read your other ramblings posts, and seeing that you're in the US and your beef [sic] seams to be with US legislation, I'll bow gracefully and steep slowly backwards out of this thread...........


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## Mugshot (2 Oct 2012)

Ffoeg said:


> quote


I like your avatar


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## Deleted member 23692 (2 Oct 2012)

Cheers


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## Red Light (2 Oct 2012)

Oldspice said:


> I'm a very talented woman
> 
> PS all his posts have been in the early morning, between 5-7am


 
That's staggering back in from the bar time in Minnesota!


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## Nigel-YZ1 (2 Oct 2012)

Think I'm going to end up hiding behind the sofa. Things haven't been this scary since Tom Baker was Doctor Who!


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## Pat "5mph" (2 Oct 2012)

I like this: according to the OP in the state of Minnesota (I think) the house holder must clear snowfall within a certain time frame.
Here in Scotland, I read somewhere  that if you shovel your driveway and somebody falls on the snow you shovelled off your property they can sue you


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## disabled rider (2 Oct 2012)

OK I said I live in Minnesota USA at time of posting it was about 1am or so (bed time) (from my perspective)

It is a shame that "most" of you folks had totally derailed this thread before I could even get started.

Note what is written, right after, First off? I wrote "prelude" meaning I was setting grounds for the thread to try and keep it on track and not get so side tracked as many poster have done. Prelude also means it is not addressing the main issue yet. and that the main issue is to be followed. AFTER an establishment of background, that is meant to establish a perspective that is not the same perspective as from a non poor/disabled perspective. 

I have also pointed out, I have a lot of content to share because this issue is so normalized, that people don't even realize there is an actual issue, unless your the one directly impacted by the issue.

Thanks for pointing out this site is in UK. I can usually tell the difference in writing style, but I did not really detect the difference here, so I did not realize it was a UK site. Just so you realize this problem, is a problem world wide, not just here where I live.

I had also had asked you not respond to the first post, It wasn't laid out to be responded too because it wasn't even the issue that I was trying to establish. If you read many of the posts correctly, they were attacking me or my writing style or saying this or that not even related to the thread when i have not even established the issue with a foundation of perspective.

Nobody is making you read the thread. Many of the responses were uncalled for. And I might add those responses in themselves were trolling in an attempt to discredit or derail this issue before it was even started.

this post is an example of what I am talking about: how your comments were posted not related to the issue, which will cause the important stuff to be buried or side tracked.

Seriously just think about this, and please, do not respond. since its just further derail the issue before it can even be established. I have not even established the issue yet and The thread is being blasted.

I pointed out right off the bat I am establishing back ground information, to establish a point of perspective, that is different than from a non-disabled viewpoint. The reason I need to do this, is because of the normalized devastating nature of the discrimination. What I mean by "normalized" is that from the perspective of the majority, which is non disabled, there is no problem. That no harm is occurring. and no one is being discriminated against. No one is guilty of harming others by their actions both direct and indirect..

Note this post had nothing to do with establishing the issue. It was written to address the posts that were derailing the thread before it was even started. (The question about what TMI and its answers was ok because it was dealing with a question with the poll) And I had asked you nicely, not to respond to the first post and let me establish the issue first, I had pointed out that several steps needed to be written, before I could post the issue itself. Because if I don't, people will look at it from the non disabled perspective and go off their rockers, talking about everything but the issue.(This has played out on 3 other sites that had banned me, I was following the site rules of the 3 sites I was banned from) I myself am not the issue . I myself am an example of how issue does devastating harm to poor/disabled. Think "Martin Luther King Jr" and the civil rights movement.
What I am trying to do, is follow his example, from a disabled poor perspective regarding cycling and freedom of movement and discrimination.

Will you clean the dirty laundry if you don't know its dirty? I am trying to show the dirty laundry so we the people can clean it.

So please let me establish the case before you respond further. I will let you know when it is appropriate to respond by saying in caps bold italic and underline , red "The floor is now open for discussion" 1 exemption that I am willing to allow is questions about "content that I post" so I can clarify to help people to understand.(And of course, I know I can't stop you from posting I am asking for you to be civil and use the honor code of self governing of restraint. So please STOP attacking me about establishing some guidelines. or establishing the case. I will get to it .I said it is long from the start. Knowing this I am trying to break it in pieces by not writing it all at once.)

Disabled rider.

PS now I am off to write chapter 1 which is going to sound totally of topic and not about the cycling world. I am saying now it has relevance and I will prove it in the later posts of chapter 2 and on. I am trying to break this up so its not a super long single post which would take the highest level of comprehension to even follow. I am sorry in advance that they seem like LONG random rambling. It is a very complicated yet simple issue. It is the perspective that makes it complicated or simple. That is why I have to establish the background before I officially establish the problem itself.


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## Red Light (2 Oct 2012)




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## glasgowcyclist (2 Oct 2012)

Well you've lost me as a potential reader, too much talking in riddles, too many orders given and too many colours in your typing. You'd think after three separate forums had given you the heave that you'd have learned to deliver your message in a concise manner. Instead you're alienating your audience before they can even begin to understand what you're rambling on about.

Just get to the point!

GC


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## Deleted member 23692 (2 Oct 2012)

I've just read that last post 3 times now and I'm none the wiser.

As above, please get to the point... if there is one


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## Oldspice (2 Oct 2012)

I thought i had problems!

You start a thread and go into a long ramble, which concludes with no point and then start another ramble?

What is this disability of yours? Whos out to get you or me?


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## Sore Thumb (2 Oct 2012)

You 6 have been naughty and replied to his thread.

You appear frustrated about something as it appears that no one is listening to you and your issues.
Did you get banned from the other sites before you got to the end of your explanation?
I think you just need to get to the point with such a large explanation. We could discuss and you could then elaborate further after that.

Allot I did not read anyway as it is just toooo much.

You need to speak to someone as I think you might have some stress/anger management issues.


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## EltonFrog (2 Oct 2012)

What a tedious, boring, inane, flatulent, first and second post OP, and for that reason I'm out.






If you are offended by my comment above, I really don't care, after having read your nonsense.


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## Nigel-YZ1 (2 Oct 2012)

I'm so sorry that you need to close down a whole forum, forbid anyone to say anything, and paint any reaction of those within as being trolling or derailing of your greatly important agenda.
There used to be a fella that ruled the alt.mountain-biking newsgroup by the name of Mike Vandeman. His was the only opinion that mattered (the banning of all off-road cycling). He would launch into length diatribes of proof and research proving his point, burying all and sundry in pseudo intellectual and self important claptrap, and winding people up until they were livid. He would then state that their anger was proof of their environmental destruction, and their violent tendencies to innocents. He would promise to send all posts made in anger to a congressman as evidence to bring in anti mountain biking laws.
In short he was a master manipulator.

I've not seen anyone that wrote the way he did until today.

There is no discrimination in cycling. Watch the paralympics for proof. Anyone can get a bike - One of mine is 30+ years old and probably only worth a few pounds.
If you can turn a pedal or a hand crank on any sort of machine, you're a cyclist and we will embrace you.

I just get the feeling you're here to begin accusing everyone else of plotting against you.

Mike Vandeman never knew when to just stop. I do. I will have nothing more to do with any of your posts. Happy riding troubled friend. Goodbye


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## ELPTX51 (2 Oct 2012)

Derailed the topic? I havent seen one to derail. If you get to the topic then we can discuss it instead of your other postings. I'm watching this one like a train wreck...facinated.


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## Crosstrailer (2 Oct 2012)

WILL YOU ALL STOP POSTING !!!!!

He has quite clearly stated we aren't allowed to reply yet !!!!!!!!!

Dude PLEASE get to the point !!!!


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## Longshot (2 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> PS now I am off to write chapter 1


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## Noodley (2 Oct 2012)

Can you stop posting in different colours please, some people with dyslexia may be unable to read it properly and I do not want them to miss out on the suffering of the rest of us.


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## Ajay (2 Oct 2012)

I got so bored reading all that, so I found myself googling Minnesota state laws - do you realize (sic) that it is illegal to sleep naked in Minnesota, and it is illegal to tease skunks.....


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## Oldspice (2 Oct 2012)

Nigel-YZ1 said:


> If you can turn a pedal or a hand crank on any sort of machine, you're a cyclist and we will embrace you.


 
Any chance you could get Tom Baker to embrace me


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## EltonFrog (2 Oct 2012)

Ajay said:


> I got so bored reading all that, so I found myself googling Minnesota state laws - do you realize (sic) that it is illegal to sleep naked in Minnesota, and it is illegal to tease skunks.....



I'm gonna Google Minnesota, 'cos I don't even know where it is!.


No wait, cancel that, I don't give a fig.


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## Pat "5mph" (2 Oct 2012)

Ajay said:


> I got so bored reading all that, so I found myself googling Minnesota state laws - do you realize (sic) that it is illegal to sleep naked in Minnesota.


What, in one's own bed???


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## Ajay (2 Oct 2012)

Pat "5mph" said:


> What, in one's own bed???


Especially in one's own bed!


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## Pat "5mph" (2 Oct 2012)

Oldspice said:


> Any chance you could get Tom Baker to embrace me


Can we make it Tom Conti, at least? Antonio Banderas would be the tops!
The op is gonna throw a fit now


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## ianrauk (2 Oct 2012)

How not to engage yourself as a new member to a forum in one easy move.....


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## Pat "5mph" (2 Oct 2012)

Ajay said:


> Especially in one's own bed!


well, as long as riding naked is not allowed either ...


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## roadrash (2 Oct 2012)

from all of that ,the only thing i know is his two favourite words are establish and agenda,

i have established that i cant be @rsed waiting for his agenda ,i dont think i will live that long


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## EltonFrog (2 Oct 2012)

The State Bird of Minnesota is the Common Loon. "The Common Loon's distinctive cry is heard during the summer months on lakes throughout the state".

Oh the irony.


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## Ajay (2 Oct 2012)

Pat "5mph" said:


> well, as long as riding naked is not allowed either ...


You could be really naughty and go skunk-teasing naked!


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## Pat "5mph" (2 Oct 2012)

Typical CChatters we are, only 2 posts, we already laughed the op's no doubt very serious equality struggles to oblivion.
We are bad 
Sorry op, and , forgive us, we are (mostly) european, evil sense of humor 
Night all


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## Oldspice (2 Oct 2012)

How come no one on this site told me i was being discriminated against. I had to find out from a stranger


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## Pat "5mph" (2 Oct 2012)

Oldspice said:


> How come no one on this site told me i was being discriminated against. I had to find out from a stranger


In the eye of the taxi driver and the wv man, all cyclist are equal!


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## Oldspice (2 Oct 2012)

Pat "5mph" said:


> In the eye of the taxi driver and the wv man, all cyclist are equal!


 
.....hay! Wait a moment


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## ttcycle (2 Oct 2012)

You're certainly not endearing people to your cause! 

If you want to control the way people respond to you then perhaps an anonymous internet forum is not the place to do it. 

I'm sure you have something valid to say but from what you've written it's just not clear.


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## Norm (2 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> IT WILL TAKE TIME TO EXPLAIN THE DETAILS AND HOW IT CONNECTS


You aren't wrong there.



ttcycle said:


> *I'm sure you have something valid to say* but from what you've written it's just not clear.


I wonder if you aren't being a tad over-optimistic there.

And other such cheap shots. It's a bit easy though, a bit shooting fish-like, I almost feel guilty doing it. Almost.


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## 4F (2 Oct 2012)

Are we allowed to post on here yet ? My money is still on this being a helmet thread .....


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## black'n'yellow (2 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> PS now I am off to write chapter 1 which is going to sound totally of topic and not about the cycling world. I am saying now it has relevance and I will prove it in the later posts of chapter 2 and on. I am trying to break this up so its not a super long single post which would take the highest level of comprehension to even follow. I am sorry in advance that they seem like LONG random rambling. It is a very complicated yet simple issue. It is the perspective that makes it complicated or simple. That is why I have to establish the background before I officially establish the problem itself.


 
if you've been banned from three other forums, presumably you have already been through all this 'complicated issue' stuff with others. Can you not just post a link to these forums - might save you all the bother of writing it all out again...


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## 4F (2 Oct 2012)

We have a law over here in the uk as well. It says if you are going to post on a forum you should stop fannying around, get to the point and stop being such a drama queen x


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## MrJamie (3 Oct 2012)

The replies just look bad because all the nice obedient people haven't replied yet.. oh wait.. oops


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## dellzeqq (3 Oct 2012)

Ajay said:


> I got so bored reading all that, so I found myself googling Minnesota state laws - do you realize (sic) that it is illegal to sleep naked in Minnesota, and it is illegal to tease skunks.....


I have slept naked in Minnesota. With a naked Minnesotan. And I've not seen people clear snow from their paths because it is so bone dry that walking is quite safe.


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## on the road (3 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> PS now I am off to write chapter 1 which is going to sound totally of topic and not about the cycling world. I am saying now it has relevance and I will prove it in the later posts of chapter 2 and on.


I think he's writing a novel


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## disabled rider (3 Oct 2012)

Before I start this post. It is going to read as if it is totally off topic. Please bear with me because it is going to take multi posts to tie everything together and show its relevance to cycling. Because of the nature of the issue I will not be holding anything back and I will be exposing sensitive information about myself(NOT personally identifying information) to help establish a perspective that is not the same as a non disabled that deals with cycling.

No one is forcing you to read this thread, so please let me have my say.

Chapter 1 About myself

list of impairments vs a person who is normal by non disabled perspective.

1. hearing loss, low end of moderate to profound. Moderate is 1/2. Profound is deaf. wearing in excess of $3000 in defective hearing equipment. "exclusion factor" is the reason I am being forced to wear expensive defective garbage.

2. learning disability (NOT developmentally challenged) I graduated top 1/5th among normals, despite the two listed impairments and exclusion. Missed honor society by 1 class, when I did not even know it existed, till last semester of high school. Listed in my school k-12 file, in capital letters and underlined "EXTREME UNDERACHIEVER" , exclusion was the biggest reason for this. Because of 1 and 2 Normals decided I was inferior and excluded me from participating in things like the honor society.(Not based on capability but based on stigmas and myths) That the honor society was exclusive for elite only. Turns out, those same elite, in the honor society, were cheating their way through tests and homework. I personally caught them handing answers back and forth on test. Once I found out they were in the honor society, things clicked in place and the cheating wasn't random as I had originally believed. Reason for mentioning the cheaters is if they had played fairly. My standing would have been even higher in the graduating class. I never cheated. And I am proud of that fact, I never cheated.

3. Due to forced premature I have skeletal problems with connective tissue. I get severe pain from nerve pinching due to loose connective tissue. Standing on hard surfaces or walking distance is extremely painful, which is one of the reasons I bike everywhere instead of walk.

4. heart defect had heart surgery when was 26. Food additives and other chems used on food was the trigger to make this a big issue for me.

5. Atypical panic attacks This was caused by the torture and abuse by my peers due to number 1 and 2 above. I have had bodily arson done to me for the sole purpose to entertain a bully who was bored. Another incident broke my right arm for same reason as first. The actions were linked to numbers 1 and 2. Fact is, many people get insecure when they feel someone they perceive as inferior is doing better than they are. (class standing in top 1/5 despite 2 major impairments, and exclusion, in point of fact)

6. inability to function well within interpersonal, and professional relationships, Due to 1, 2 and 5.

7. Unable to work. Not because of the impairments but the exclusion by the non disabled who control almost every aspect of life. The exclusion has nothing to do with sub par or inferior performance. It is solely the refusal to include even when I am so over qualified to perform the job and willing to work for less pay than the next.  (Number 7 is absolutely not open for debate, 7 has nothing to do with lack of trying or being free loader or any other excuses given by those who do not know the exact details and life experiences I went through. I am 100% unemployable because of the "Exclusion" factor, not my impairments.)

8. numbers 5,6, 7 are the core of the determination for my SSDI by the SSA administration that declared my "disabled" status. NOT every aspect of your life has to be completely impaired to be classed "disabled." Minimum 2 major life activities need to be severely impaired. There is a difference between having disabilities and being disabled. Will explain this further later.

9. Income is severely impaired by 1-8 and most of all by the "Exclusion factor."

10. Sleep apnea requiring auto adjusting CPAP

Note I did not write this from a victimization perspective. Victimization core is, the perceiving of being a victim when you are not actually a victim. Victimization is NOT the perceiving of being a victim when in fact you are one. The example of this second point is, my pointing out about the "bodily arson" That was a fact that happened in front of witnesses of 34 people, who stood by and did not do anything to stop it or laughed along with the person committing the torture. No actions were taken against this person. If it had happened today, that person would have been declared an adult and tried as an adult and thrown in prison. "Bodily arson is torture" by the definition of torture. I lost half my hair, If I had bent over a second earlier, I would have permanent scaring today. My last sentence here, is based on, if I had bent over any sooner I would have been out of reach of said arson to put the fire out. I did not know I was on fire till after I was hit hard on my head by the arsonist torturer, to put said fire out.
I added the part about victimization because it came up in other forums, people who were accusing me of it, didn't really understand what it was and thought it applied to people, who were pointing out the facts of things that happened to themselves. It is also used as a means of excusing the criminal actions of the person committing the crime. It is wrong to justify the criminal actions period. This is tied to morals and ethics, and justice.

I am a survivor. A messed up one, but a survivor none the less. Psychiatrist and psychologists, I have dealt with over the years say that any reasonable person would have suicide in junior high going through the stuff I did, without a doubt statistically speaking. I have an exceptionally strong will to live, right from forced 2 months premature and on.

This "personal" background is the core as to why riding bicycle is vital for 100% of my transportation needs. And why my riding style, I use, is vital to keep me from getting killed by negligent drivers.

Now when you look at the rest of the posts establishing the issue, effecting many poor disabled, put your self in my shoes with the difficulties above, Not as a non disabled. If you can do this you will be enlightened of the normalized exclusion of a disadvantaged class of people.

Here is the guardian regarding the Gym issue following the Paralympics2012 The exclusion was so normalized that it wasn't seen as an issue, till it was brought forward to public attention using the poor disabled perspective, that yes this was a serious problem. http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/sep/10/gym-access-disabled-people-campaigners
The reason for using the gym example is cycling is mostly considered a "sport", Not a means of transportation of freedom of movement.

Chapter 2 is to follow, This chapter will be about the definition of "disability" and "disabled" A different perspective than the ones used by the medical and non disabled people.
chapter 3 "Exclusion factor"
Chapter 4 the ISSUE
Chapter 5 specific situation as detailed example showing how the issue is doing severe harm.(using my personal situation I find myself in currently) When poor disabled, like me, are finding that we are being excluded in full participation of cycling. (Partial inclusion is not enough, when it involves restricting our ability to care for ourselves.) I don't just mean recreational cycling like the man with the hand-petal bike(I have never personally heard of a hand-pedal bike being used as a means of transportation from point a to point b and for hauling of goods from shopping etc.) Recreational riding is more inclusive than other riding methods.

The chapters may change order or topic, due to unforeseen comments made by others.

Disabled Rider


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## Oldspice (3 Oct 2012)

Wouldn't it make more sense to post on the 'Minnesota Cycling federation forum'
http://www.mcf.net/index.php/forum

It's in your area and would be able to give you a lot more advise.
(Just change your last user name and try not to ramble so much, they will never know it's you)

The Guardian was talking about UK gyms (council and other gyms are accessible in UK)

From what i got useing Google Minnesota is offering a shed load of stuff for disabled people.


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## disabled rider (3 Oct 2012)

Oldspice said:


> Wouldn't it make more sense to post on the 'Minnesota Cycling federation forum'
> http://www.mcf.net/index.php/forum
> 
> It's in your area and would be able to give you a lot more advise.
> ...


 
I am aware that the guardian was talking about the UK gyms This is a UK forum. I was using its example because it was closer to where this forum and many of its users are located.

My beef is not just here, its world wide. And with the internet being a more intricate role in our lives. Issues going on in other countries become more relevant to one another. If this was back in the day before the internet I would fully agree with you about focusing here only. I do have other things going on at this time just not on sites yet. I made a plea with the city council for example to amend the rules governing cycles on side walks for disabled other than the ambulatory impaired verity.

There are other rules in place that restrict us from leaving city limits. This is one of the bigger ones that interfere with the right of freedom of movement. Right now I am cut off from a particular fishing spot where I have a good history of success catching food. that same restrictions prevents me from going to various places to hunt for deer for food. People with cars are not blocked at all.

One of the other reasons I thought to start here, was due to the impact, the UK government and media had on, getting the public to become hostile towards the disabled/poor community. http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/feb/05/benefit-cuts-fuelling-abuse-disabled-people

If it had not been for this, I would have taken the suggestion about switching to an American site right off the bat. I still can as long as the moderators don't physically delete my posts which I can then copy over to the other American site.(my posts only no-one else.) Lately UK and USA have been taking similar actions when dealing with the disability and poor community. To me this gives the impression that they are looking to one another as examples. So if I can get things moving in UK to better our rights to cycle USA may follow suit. and vice-versa.(wishful thinking but possible)

Sometimes the proper actions can't be taken, if not enough information is shared. Martin Luther King Jr shared a lot back in the day including many personal examples. As a result he became the symbol of the civil rights movement.

I don't want to be a symbol. I just want results, that will let me cycle, in a safe manor, so I can do the simple things of taking care of myself.

Statistics on the site you recommended is pretty dismal for trying to get the word out. not much traffic. Posting there I would wind up swamping it, which I know from past experience is not good for the sites overall health. 

Anyway signing off, time for a break and rest my brain.

Disabled rider.


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## Oldspice (3 Oct 2012)

Trust me when i say 'You are not a symbol' there are no restrictions in the UK regarding disabled cyclist and i fear you are trying to drum up an army in the UK for a war that is not happening.

As far as restrictions for cyclist in your area, i have found none, and as for riding on a pavement, that is illegal in the UK as well. Do you have an ankle tag or some other type of monitor/court order that restricts your movements. From what i have seen on the net and from your comments, the only conclusion i have is that your talking tosh and trying to gain sympathy by bleating on that your poor and disabled and that the 'Whom ever' is out to get you.

This is the wrong place, to imply that disabled cyclist are being discriminated against in the UK and your gym reference is unfounded as there are many council and private gyms available with disabled access.

See your local health worker and if your not happy with them, change or move.


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## mr_hippo (3 Oct 2012)

What a load of drivel. OP, do you think the rest of us have a perfect life?
About me:-
Proundly deaf in left ear (100%) due to me not liking my Mum's cabbage - hit so many times about the left ear in my early years.
Very bad stutter because I was left handed - frowned upon in 50s UK society and caused a bad stutter when l was forced to use right hand.
Bullied in secondary school because of my height, stutter and hand-me-up uniform (my next yoingest brother was the size of a house, he had a new school blazer every year so l had his cast offs.
Non-supportive parents. Stopped telling them about the bullying because Dad would tell my 5 siblings so that they could ridicule me.
Accused of cheating at school because 'No one who stutters is clever'
Laughed at in front of whole school when we had a French exchange student 'whose first language was not English' and someone shouted out we already have one and pointed to me. The whole staff body and students were in fits of laughter.
Finished top of my class in a trade test in the Army Air Corps but because the officer did not like people who stuttered was kicked off it.
Need I go on? All of us have something wrong with us and it is our own ability and capability that gets us by and we succeed by our own merit.
I can also say that Thai bicycle shops discriminate against me because they do not stock size 48 shoes
Have you noticed that supermarkets are heightist? .What ever I want is on the bottom shelf and what small people want is on the top shelf!
Yes cycling is viewed as a 'sport'; so why is there a 'cycle to work' scheme in the UK?
OK so you are poor and disabled but so are many more people but that does not prevent them enjoying life to the full. If you were given a bunch of lemons at birth then make lemonade and enjoy!!


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## ufkacbln (3 Oct 2012)

Ajay said:


> I got so bored reading all that, so I found myself googling Minnesota state laws - do you realize (sic) that it is illegal to sleep naked in Minnesota, and it is illegal to tease skunks.....


 

That stinks!


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## ufkacbln (3 Oct 2012)

Breaking one of the "Rules", but you have stated:



> There are other rules in place that restrict us from leaving city limits.


 
What are these rules specifically, and who is "us". Are you saying that cyclists cannot leave the city limits, disabled people, or is this another group.


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## Mugshot (3 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> It is a shame that "most" of you folks had totally derailed this thread before I could even get started.


I don't think anybody is trying to derail your thread, we're just entertaining ourselves until the next installment comes along.


disabled rider said:


> Nobody is making you read the thread. Many of the responses were uncalled for. And I might add those responses in themselves were trolling in an attempt to discredit or derail this issue before it was even started.


You're right, nobody is making anybody read your thread, but wouldn't you rather people did? I'm not sure how many will be left by the time you get to chapter 5.


disabled rider said:


> Chapter 2 is to follow, This chapter will be about the definition of "disability" and "disabled" A different perspective than the ones used by the medical and non disabled people.
> chapter 3 "Exclusion factor"
> Chapter 4 the ISSUE
> Chapter 5 specific situation as detailed example showing how the issue is doing severe harm.(using my personal situation I find myself in currently) When poor disabled, like me, are finding that we are being excluded in full participation of cycling. (Partial inclusion is not enough, when it involves restricting our ability to care for ourselves.) I don't just mean recreational cycling like the man with the hand-petal bike(I have never personally heard of a hand-pedal bike being used as a means of transportation from point a to point b and for hauling of goods from shopping etc.) Recreational riding is more inclusive than other riding methods.
> ...


I don't think anyone here is going to struggle to keep up if you just went straight to Chapter 4, or precis the remaining chapters into one more manageable chunk, why not do that?


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## jdtate101 (3 Oct 2012)

Dear god. Will you just please STOP with the tirade and just GET TO THE POINT. No one wants to read your 'war and peace' epic 5 chapters, just learn to summarise and write up what your point is in ONE paragraph. 

Please before we all die of old age.


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## ohnovino (3 Oct 2012)




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## Longshot (3 Oct 2012)

Disabled Rider, this may seem like an odd question but do you have a fondness for orgonite? Also, where do you stand on the subject of chemtrails?


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## Jodee1kenobi (3 Oct 2012)

Disabled rider take note from all the repsonses here........they get to the point VERY WELL! 

Like most here I am still none the wiser as to what you are on about. What I can see though is that by labelling yourself as 'disabled rider' that is your problem, because that is obviously how you see yourself, disabled. 
My son has disabilities and he will never have the pleasure of cycling/living independently (and I/he is not looking for sympathy and nor does he feel sorry for himself!). I can honestly say that he has is certainly not been defined by his disabilities, even though they have a huge impact on his life and the family's.

Please just state your disability, what your real issue is and what you propose to do about it in *no more than 100 words!  *


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## black'n'yellow (3 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> * Chapter 4 the ISSUE*
> 
> The chapters may change order or topic, due to unforeseen comments made by others.


 
Frankly - I suspect this is the only one people are interested in. Maybe you could save yourself a lot of time and just get to the point - preferably before you lose any more of what little empathy people have left..?


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## Ajay (3 Oct 2012)

What bike do you ride D R?
Do you have a separate modified bike for your deer hunting?


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## TheDoctor (3 Oct 2012)

FFS.
I've read page 1 and this one, and I've lost the will to live already.
Is there any hope of a point to it all?


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## LosingFocus (3 Oct 2012)

[QUOTE 2074065, member: 45"]

There is no norm in terms of ability.
[/quote]

Does Norm know about this?


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## Crosstrailer (3 Oct 2012)

Disabled Rider.

So far, excluding the poll which frankly has some seriously bizarre options, you have written no fewer than 3,792 words in this thread. None of us are any the wiser as to the point you wish to make.

While I, and no doubt many others on here, have sincere empathy with what you have told us of the problems you have experienced in life to this point, your postings here are verging on incoherent rambling (and some would argue they have crossed the line already).

PLEASE understand your posts are not well written, are not interesting and are not entertaining (well not in the right way anyway). PLEASE just come to the point. No one wants to read 5 chapters of self indulgent rambling most of which is entirely unneccessary filler. You are endearing yourself to no-one and instead opening yourself up to ridicule, I am sorry to say you are coming across as an extremely arrogant person or dare I say it someone with mental health issues.

If you have a point please make it concisely. At present I can see this thread going only in one direction.

PS Hunting deer is cruel and is sport, not a necessity.


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## ttcycle (3 Oct 2012)

It's best not to take your personal experiences and apply them to a wholly diferent country that you haven't got experiences in. It can be read as very presumptious! 

As mr P has pointed out, the way we view disability in the UK is not like the states and whilst I'm not saying that everything is rosy perfect, it has moved on from the dichotomy of normal vs disabled.

There are quite a few people on here with disabilities.

It seems like you've had awful experiences but your postings above are unclear and lacking in a clear real point. If you are wanting to create change, you're going about it the wrong way.


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## mangaman (3 Oct 2012)

Crosstrailer said:


> Disabled Rider.
> 
> So far, excluding the poll which frankly has some seriously bizarre options, you have written no fewer than 3,792 words in this thread. None of us are any the wiser as to the point you wish to make.


 
Wow - you've counted the words!! Respect.

Just looking at the random jumble of colours and capitals made my head hurt.

BTW - DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS POST

I'LL BE BACK _to explain *later*_


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## hobbitonabike (3 Oct 2012)

This is amazing hahahahahaha!!


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## Cyclopathic (3 Oct 2012)

ohnovino said:


>



I like this twice.


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## Cyclopathic (3 Oct 2012)

I would absolutely like to be able to help here and to alleviate the pain and suffering that the op has clearly endured.
Unfortunately I too am suffering a severe disability which makes my help or involvement utterly impossible. You see I have been suddenly stricken with a complete and utter loss of all empathy whatsoever so try as I might I cannot bring myself to care about whatever it is that disabledrider is on about. I can only hope that my disability does not leave me open to the terrible discrimination that seems to have blighted the life of disabled rider, which I'm sure I would think was absolutely awful of only I had the capacity to feel anything for my fellow man.
I would add that my condition is extremely rare and whilst some people do suffer as I do from a lack of empathy it is rarely so specific as mine in that my affliction seems restricted to only one person so far and that is disabled rider.
I cannot begin to imagine what a detrimental effect this is going to have on my life but when I do I will surely be back to share it with you all in great detail with notes and bullet points.


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## glasgowcyclist (3 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> Before I start this post. .. <snipped>


 
It can't be fun for you (surely?) to be passed from one forum to another, having to repeat your entire saga time and again, so here's a serious suggestion:
Get yourself a bit of free webspace and write up the whole damn thing in a way that you feel best gets your message across. You will then be in complete control of how it is presented, and in control of allowing or disallowing comments from your readers. Once you're happy with the message, come back here and post the link to it - what could be simpler?

I've never yet met a cyclist who wasn't willing to help a fellow cyclist in need, and if anyone here can offer you help or advice then I'm sure they will.. _once they know what the problem is_!

It's obvious that your methods have sufficiently irritated at least three other forums to get you kicked off. Take some time to consider that this means your approach hasn't worked and that you need to fix it.

GC


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## Joey Shabadoo (3 Oct 2012)

mr_hippo said:


> All of us have something wrong with us


 
I don't


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## Joey Shabadoo (3 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> Ok, First off.
> Prelude:
> 
> Please take the time to read my first post in the introductions of new members, There are some very important points, in there, to keep in mind, while reading any of my threads or posts, that I may add to this forum.
> ...


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## GBC (3 Oct 2012)

It seems to me that disabled rider is wallowing in his victim status, and that he will get some perverted satisfaction from being banned from this forum as well - it will prove he's right. As I feel like a 'rubber necker' at a particularly messy road accident when reading this thread, I for one would encourage the moderators to do just that.

Over and out.


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## fossyant (3 Oct 2012)

OP, when you return, can you please get to the point about your post. So far we are on Episode 1, after the pre-lude and we really have no idea what you are on about. This is becoming like the US series of LOST - nothing ever happened over xx seasons that could have been done and dusted in one episode (OK make it two as the crash was quite good).

You've stated your disability, but what is the reason for the post ? Is it down to state laws restricting benefits, availability of equipment, you being able to cycle - then seen as mobile and having benefits reduced ? You will also have to bear in mind UK legislation is different to US, and of course State legislation varies.

As has been said you have to stick to forum rules, and as it stands, the posts you have made could be intrepreted as trolling. You need to be precise and direct to the point so that a 'discussion' can be made in this thread. At present there is no discussion, just rambling posts, and folk querying your comments.


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## Mugshot (3 Oct 2012)

fossyant said:


> You need to be precise and direct to the point so that a 'discussion' can be made in this thread. At present there is no discussion, just rambling posts, and folk querying your comments.


He is Bicycle, sorry Boris Bajic AICMFP


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## Oldspice (3 Oct 2012)

I think he was one of the writers to the TV show 'Lost'!


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## Auntie Helen (3 Oct 2012)

Might I suggest, OP, that you write everything you want to say in Microsoft Word or something and don't post it here until the entire story is complete and you can put the whole lot down together. Then you won't have people replying before you are ready.

Also please note that as most of us are in the UK we don't understand various acronymns to do with your school system etc, so they are wasted on us.


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## Arjimlad (3 Oct 2012)

6 pages already, and I for one am none the wiser about what the complaint/point is !

This is epic ... you're watching CC history being made here, folks ..


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## ianrauk (3 Oct 2012)

Set up a blog... and put it all in there.. then the good forum-ites can choose whether they want to read your rambling agenda or not.


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## summerdays (3 Oct 2012)

[QUOTE 2074507, member: 45"]I think it would be appropriate to raise something here. I'm reluctant to, as it's a personal matter, but as the OP has himself raised the issue I'm not stepping over any gate that he hasn't already opened.

And that's about social communication. There are disorders (ASD being one) which impair the ability to understand both what's appropriate in communication and also interpretation on both sides. If this is present then it can be difficult for the communicator to both interpret what's being said to him/her (primarily as a result of a tendency to take everything literally) and also to appreciate how their communication comes across.

Whatever our knee-jerk response is to what's being said, I think it's right that this is born in mind on this thread.[/quote]
I had wondered about that myself In relation to this thread.


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## fossyant (3 Oct 2012)

OK, just to fill folks in and keep the thread on 'subject'

I've checked out the OP's intro thread an another post and one about falling off.

This is my summary.

The op is a disabled cyclist in the States (bear in mind local traffic laws vary between states). Great we say, well done for keeping mobile.

He does state in one post that 'his style' of cycling is considered against the law - so I can assume the universal pavement cycling, possible jumping traffic lights, cycling where cycling is not permissable (i.e. within a shopping mall ?). The law is the law though

That said, there has been no consideration of how cycling on the pavement may be a danger to pedestrians, but being in the States, no-one walks anywhere, they all drive 

The OP does seem concerned about driving standards - not everyone is out to get you, just 1% at most, and they are just as bad for all road users.

You mention an experienced cyclist getting knocked off - well yes it does happen, and hosiptal visits are rare, but do happen, as for killed, very very rare.

Now we all are of the opinion from your posts that you think you should be able to cycle just about where ever you feel, and I think this is the point of your post. Laws are put into place to protect all road users - blanket rules so everyone knows what they should do and should not, it also gives you some legal protection in the event you were involved in an accident with another road user.

I really do think you are preaching to the wrong audience.


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## Christopher (3 Oct 2012)

Ajay said:


> What bike do you ride D R?
> Do you have a separate modified bike for your deer hunting?
> 
> 
> ...


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## Mugshot (3 Oct 2012)

Christopher said:


> That's no good! Where do you put the kill? Dead-deer croggie?
> OT: I have rellies in Wisconsin. In deer season, y'all have the guns in the trunk of the Pontiac, the beer on the back seat and the dead deer tied onto the car somewheres so it doesn't bleed all over the inside. And the dead glassy eyes freak out other people. NB I haven't done any of this, just observed it.


I've done the dead glassy eyed thing a fair few times, that was thanks to the beer which I've done too, although not on the back seat.


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## Ajay (3 Oct 2012)

Christopher said:


> That's no good! Where do you put the kill? Dead-deer croggie?
> OT: I have rellies in Wisconsin. In deer season, y'all have the guns in the trunk of the Pontiac, the beer on the back seat and the dead deer tied onto the car somewheres so it doesn't bleed all over the inside. And the dead glassy eyes freak out other people. NB I haven't done any of this, just observed it.


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## Joey Shabadoo (3 Oct 2012)

Ajay said:


>


 
Cleats have slipped out - too much float.


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## Arjimlad (3 Oct 2012)

Interesting set of aero-bars you have there...


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## 4F (3 Oct 2012)

Nice


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## Joey Shabadoo (3 Oct 2012)

4F said:


> View attachment 13331
> 
> 
> Nice


 
Coo - you could impale cakes on these and chomp as you cycle.


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## 4F (3 Oct 2012)

swl said:


> Coo - you could impale cakes on these and chomp as you cycle.


 
Wouldn't fancy going over the bars on those.... However they have a matching helmet for added safety


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## Oldspice (3 Oct 2012)

4F said:


> Wouldn't fancy going over the bars on those.... However they have a matching helmet for added safety
> View attachment 13332


 
You just had to turn it into a helmet thread


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## Hitchington (3 Oct 2012)

Nigel-YZ1 said:


> Think I'm going to end up hiding behind the sofa. Things haven't been this scary since Tom Baker was Doctor Who!


 Is there room for another!?


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## roadrash (3 Oct 2012)

it will bebefore i know what he's on about


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## EltonFrog (3 Oct 2012)

I wonder if Juan Jose Mendez has similar concerns? I somehow doubt it, he just rides his bike.


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## Shaun (3 Oct 2012)

I've edited a couple of posts and would ask that whatever you think - please be civil.

Thanks,
Shaun


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## RWright (3 Oct 2012)

I have visited Minnesota and have thought what a great place it would be to ride bicycles  I saw miles and miles of paved and unpaved bicycle and snowmobile trails that you can ride bikes on during spring, summer and fall, I guess winter too if you like riding in deep snow. Minnesota was voted best trails state in the union and is near the very top in bicycle friendly states.

I have also read and been told that Minnesota has one of the most liberal state welfare systems in the USA. If he is having problems there he would really hate life in other states.

I have not read all the OP posts as they are too long and rambling for me and I am bad about writing long post. I think someone might be jerking our chain.


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## disabled rider (4 Oct 2012)

[QUOTE 2074065, member: 45"]You've clearly had a very difficult time. I would like to point out a few things...


I mentioned in my last post about the social model of disability, before you said that you were going to explain about the different models. Hopefully that will show you that things aren't necessarily how you see them.
The UK is not the USA. There are differences in terms of the language around and view of disability. Over here we moved on from some of the inappropriate language still used in the states a long time ago.
Slightly linked to that, I note that you use the term "normal" for those you consider to be non-disabled. That shows how easy it is to fall into using inappropriate language and supporting the prejudice that this brings. It might be worth considering this as part of your processing of the position and views of others. I'm sure you don't mean to be prejudiced, but the language you've picked up from around you could be misinterpreted as such.
There is no norm in terms of ability.
Cycling is certainly not considered solely as a sport over here.
The Equalities Act (merger of others with the DDA) is firmly established over here and includes clear instruction on consideration of accessability with businesses.
[/quote]
When I use terms of normal Is from the non-disability leadership/ elitist leadership, and as you pointed out the prejudices (This is NOT my personal view, When I use normal or non disabled There is a foul taste in my mouth or mind, In order to show the injustice sometimes you have to use their language to help them understand that that view is harming others.). That is my point exactly thanks for the rewording from another perspective. Just so you know the ADA core follows your take and been in place 5 years longer. problem is people refuse to follow it and how am I suppose to say its almost entirely the non-disabled group who is refusing (a group of people who have major similarities)?. the equities act is the same as ADA just worded differently in regards to dealing with the people with impairments That effect their ability to care for them selves..
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/DisabledPeople/RightsAndObligations/DisabilityRights/DG_4001068 is this the equality act? I hope this is a revised amended version, they are talking here. ADA put this into effect back in 1990 through titles 1-3. based on this link they are pretty much describing the ADA titles 1-3.

http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/statutes/adaaa_info.cfm when reading through here it is clarifying what was already in place since 1990

Quote"
For the purposes of the Act, these words have the following meanings:

'substantial' means more than minor or trivial (minor and trivial is so vague it can mean anything the current leadership decides. The ADA was clear starting 1990 right up till a supreme court judge messed it up. Then in 2008 George W bush JR restored it with the amendment "ADAAA" which officially kicked in march 15 2011 at least the title 3 portion of the amendment did. lost the right to use a service animal due to species he was Cat. )
'long-term' means that the effect of the impairment has lasted or is likely to last for at least twelve months (there are special rules covering recurring or fluctuating conditions)
'normal day-to-day activities' include everyday things like eating, washing, walking and going shopping
People who have had a disability in the past that meets this definition are also protected by the Act."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equality_Act_2010
based on this they decided to lump them all together? ouch makes it easier to add boat load of loop holes.
This can get troublesome when the forms of discrimination is different Like physical barriers does not effect able bodied. I am not saying updating is a bad thing its the lumping them together when the characteristics are different. (I don't mean in terms of prejudices)
It would have been easier to update them but have the same penalties for those who committed the wrong. physical access has nothing to do with gender or race unless in cases the person was of both.  I think part of the confusion that may have been misinterpreted is I was dealing with "needs of an individual to participate." And the failure of society to allow those needs to be meet is the exclusion of the person who has certain needs. Different people have different needs. I am sorry for not making this more clear.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was busy writing chapter 1 when you posted your first response. It takes me time because I am repeatedly rereading what I write to try and refine it one of the points on the learning disability I forgot to put in till after the fact. I have dyslexia and a form related to transfer from short term memory to long term.
I do not have that ASD or what ever another poster posted. The way I write is not the same as the way I talk or think. The way I write is based on how my hearing and the learning disability impacts it. I been reading and not responding to the posts saying get on with it etc. partially to do with the second part of the learning disability related to short term memory. Partially to do with those folks are looking for entertainment when I am not doing this for entertainment.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was familiar with the disability models(which was the second chapter) and they are relatively established. Many people aren't aware or choose to ignore them or deliberately use one form or other. Like in a capitalist society they prefer to use the medical model. and make a show of using the social model just to placate the public ADA 1990.

Ok I am going to use the wikis as my second chapter instead of writing it out in summarized form. If people wondering what I am talking about here use the wikis as your reference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disability
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_model_of_disability
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_model_of_disability

reality check
Problem is the ADA been in effect for more than 20 years. Most people are not even aware the law even exists. Or do not understand it or refuse to follow it.

Policy and actions still violate it 20+ years after the fact. 

My guess is its the same with your DDA. / equality act

Shunning the sick is a powerful instinct. The laws, only partially succeed in the role they were intend, mainly because intellect is warring with instinct.

I am going to use the ADA examples here because that is what I am most familiar and I do not want to make the situation worse relying on things I am not real familiar with (DDA)

http://westlawinsider.com/cyberlaw/did-the-netflix-ada-ruling-break-the-internet-not-so-much-2/ This was in the news recently but I like how he shows, that yes, we have these laws but they don't really do as intended which is to get society to comply with "inclusion"

Here is a mobility one from New York That goes to show the ADA is just a rubber stamp and is not to be taken seriously.(ADA had relatively clear working on the issue this was a political ruling , I wasn't suppose to be)
Taxi had 20 years to comply as they replace cars from their fleet. It would not have been a fundamental alteration to gradually shift the fleet over. Problem is they did not do so. This prompted this case and ruling was against the ADA http://www.capitalnewyork.com/artic...win-ruling-taxis-arent-subject-public-accessi

This case is very much in line with other attitudes regarding forms of transportation, Bicycles, power assist bicycles, trikes, Tadpoles, bikes with trailers etc.
I was looking for an example in the USA of the tank tread chair, guess what we are not so different. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...road-tank-wheelchair-killjoy-DVLA-chiefs.html That about sums up the attitude here as well.

Point is its not all cut and dried as you would like me to believe. I know this personally as a fact. I deal with the ADA on daily basis. I also deal with the way society uses clever tactic to do end runs on the ADA and the DDA. Or they limit the scope in how effective the laws protect. Example violating ADA work place discrimination, There is a clause of capping damages at $55,000, any other protected class like black ,women, old they get multi millions for the same level of offense.

like the ADA doesn't apply to our federal government and its building, they rely on an outdated 1974 rehabilitation act, which has very limited scope of protection.

I am pretty sure the DDA/equality act has similar issues. As the tank chair is good example. If your law was so great this would not have happened.

Punitive damages, is the teeth of civil rights laws.

Any way on to cycling perspective. The roads were not designed for bikes period. most of them anyway. some of the issues mainly stems from who is designing and money available and when the layout was put in like 1800's or 2010. Example: putting a bike lane to the left of parking where when the parked car opens it door totally blocks the bike lane. Another example which is the case for ALL of the roads down town here where I live, either lane is just big enough for a car or car and parking, NO space for bikes on right side of roads. this set up was designed by people who DO NOT RIDE BIKES.

OK I guess I am going to add other components of other chapters to this post as a means to speed up the process partially to show the conflict of ADA and policy(laws and rules), physical world and the reality.

Ideal world the ADA and the DDA does as intended. Real world it doesn't, This is mainly due to who is in control and the shunning the sick/injured instinct(Exclusion Factor). ADA and DDA says this person has the same rights to ride the bus as every one else. Example of the shunning over powering the ADA and the DDA. Would you want a person sitting next to you on the bus, that has a blistering oozing skin condition? The instinct say get that person as far from you as possible, better yet exclude them from riding for the safety of all the other riders too. It doesn't matter if "fact" is its not transmittable. People respond to instinct long before they respond to intellect law like ADA and DDA. The perception of the sick person being a direct danger overrides. Personally, I would ask, "is your skin condition transmittable to others?" if not sit with them, If so I move to another spot. I would never tell them they couldn't ride the bus. If someone else tried to block them I get in the offenders face and tell them to back off, if the offender don't like them, they can get off, their choice.

Another example that it is clearly written in to the ADA and can not be violated. A person with a service animal shall not be banned or segregated in a homeless shelter. Homeless shelter is a written example of public accommodation. Guess what about 15 years after this law was put in place, I found myself homeless with a service animal. I went to ALL the local shelters. NONE OF THEM ALLOWED ACCESS not even when a letter from legal services. Told them they were clearly breaking a civil rights law and must comply. 3 months from January to April. Coldest time of year here. Homeless in a van no heating.

The shelters used the stall tactic to deny my access clearly protected by the ADA. The allowable punitive damages were so low to non existent that lawyers refused to take action. 

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=169.222
specially pay attention to sub section 4 and particularly 4d on street riding and sidewalk riding.

There are other traffic laws which may not be listed in the above link. Like the 3ft clearance drivers MUST give to bikers of the bikers left side. About 1 out of about 100 obey this. Why so few you ask? Police do NOT enforce the law. Drivers know this. and thus they DO NOT merge to left lane on double lanes or give 3 ft clearance on single lanes as required by law. Many times they can't even do the 3ft because it puts them into oncoming traffic or crossing a double yellow line to do so. No actions are taken by police when a biker reports it, even with video proof of the violation. The Police themselves have to catch them in the act. only time they do that is after a cyclist is hit or killed. Then its too late. Now this is serious problem even for the non disabled. It is exponentially increased for disabled due to various impairments. For us it becomes not a matter of if we get hit but when.

Our down town business district is NOT designed to include bikes because it was designed before bikes became important means of getting around. There is physically NO ROOM to add bike lane.

Our law actually contradicts. When you read it it says we have the same rights to use the road as cars BUT, you have to keep far right of the lane and DO NOT IMPEDE traffic problem here is in order to give the 3 foot right away they have to completely merge in to the left lane or completely cross the center line to do so. This has to do with the traffic passing law, of you have to do a whole lane pass and not a half lane pass. If your on a single lane road with double line, your breaking the law because your impeding the flow of traffic. Because they can't legally pass you and give the mandatory 3 foot clearance.

So both parties are breaking the law. and nothing can be done about it because it is a physical limitation that was IMPOSED by select able body people. By limiting how wide the streets are.

For the disabled there is a modification that could be done that would keep them from getting killed. sidewalk.
Many of us disabled that I see riding bikes round here are not moving much faster than top speed of a power chair or scooter.
That bull that drivers don't see disabled bikers due to moving too fast on side walks is MOSTLY false. THEY ARE NOT LOOKING AT ALL WHEN THE LAW REQUIRES IT. Then it goes back to lack of police not enforcing the law. Especially when people are driving 2000lb weapons.

Key with allowing disabled bikers on sidewalks is they follow the pedestrian rules, Which I do and thus in the 6+ years I have ZERO accidents, not even a single bump. The only close calls are pedestrians NOT looking before merging on to lane of flow. I was only moving the speed of walking in these cases and came to a halt, it was not a case of me running into them it was the other way around their failure to look where they are going. I never cruise at speed in which I can not stop on the dime down town. I also observe the pedestrians running into each other frequently for the same failure to NOT LOOK where they are walking. It is not automatically the bikers fault.

The statistics about bikers getting hurt more often on sidewalks is purely the biker forgetting to use ped rules instead of street rules.
Right away is given, it is NOT automatic. when you assume right of way is automatic that is when the accident occurs.

When approaching intersections I slow down and LOOK to ensure that pedestrians and drivers alike are giving right away, if not I stop period. When passing, I shout at distance "passing on your left side." Only problem, I encounter is peds DO NOT SHARE THE SIDEWALK EVEN WITH OTHER PEDS. Like keep to the right when walking, always pass on left side of slower moving peds. Then the Peds go and try to blame the cyclist or even other peds for their own failure to follow rules. Even when cyclist is following the peds rules to the letter. Peds are not following their own rules as to the proper way to share the sidewalk even with other peds.
I find myself often times stopping to remind pedestrians that there is in fact are rules to sharing the sidewalk with other pedestrians. and mobility impaired. Auditory is just as much a mobility issue as no legs etc. People forget the importance hearing plays in moving from point a to point b. Not to mention the balance factor with loss of hearing.

There is only one place here, where I get up to any kind of speed its a straight 8ft wide sidewalk with 10ft + visibility to either side and NO peds or other cyclists and no drive crossings. This is the only place I go of any kind of speed approaching 10 miles an hour.

people were trying to tell me use a mirror and ride the street. That is FLAWED LOGIC. first off they were saying it from a NON disability perspective. That perspective gets me killed in reality. Mirror works for people with hearing it does not for those without. it is handy for those with out hearing but it does nothing when it actually counts. Here is how and I know this from actually trying to do it in reality even after practice it was useless in real world application. I stopped using mirrors when a driver broke the one I had off with close pass.
Ok here is how a mirror works for the NON disabled. They hear traffic approaching from the rear which Ques the rider to look in the mirror to ensure the driver is paying attention or giving enough clearance. Their hearing allows the rider to keep eyes forward so they do not run into anything. And only look back when absolutely necessary based on the warning given by their hearing.

From deaf point (me) I can't hear traffic until its on top of me. As result I do not know when to look into the mirror. For the mirror to do me any good, as to the status of traffic behind me, I have to watch the mirror full time. Thus NOT LOOKING FORWARD. Remember right away is never automatic it is always given no matter what any law says.

using mirrors when driving is nothing like that of biking. principle of mirror use is too different.

AS it stands if I follow the letter of law I will be killed or seriously injured by negligent drivers. (FACT)
Since you can't stop the driver from breaking the law, change the policy that allows me as a disabled rider to ride on sidewalk adhering to the pedestrian rule of traffic. I know this would not work in all areas this is not possible, like new york city at rush hour where the peds are so packed that there isn't really enough room for a ped to turn around.

I have already demonstrated, it is possible, successfully for 6+ years. Police know who I am and do not attempt to stop me, they know I am disabled. 

Then if this last sentence is the case then Why am I here trying to advocate?

The laws and policy and the shunning of the sick which is in essence the "Exclusion factor"

Civilians Are trying to shun me and force me on to the roadway where for fact I will be killed. Why do they want to shun me is because they themselves are breaking the law of loitering on the public sidewalk blocking flow of traffic. Which is forbidden in chapter 73 of our city ordinance. When a civilian shuns the sick(ME) they call the police. Thus the police left me alone understanding my situation, but being that they are peace officers, they have no choice but to uphold the letter of the law even when that letter of the law discriminates and puts people in harms way. Now that a civilian called the police it forces the police to uphold a discriminatory law.

Civilian are using the shun instinct and letter of law to do harm against a disabled person me. I can't ride the road. This is nothing to do with preference. This is I am in imminent danger of being run over. I have enough on my plate of impairments I do not need to add more from an imminent danger of an accident.

Rest of the freedom of movement regarding not being able to leave the city is: The posting on highways no bikes even highways that are straight with 8-12ft wide asphalt shoulders and no sound barriers or other rails. Thus effectively cutting off all but 2 access points out of the city. I can't even legally access part of the city because of the signage. A huge consumer business park and the gunsmith I go too, is on the other side of said blockage. this same highway has a 7ft asphalt shoulder. It is perfectly safe to use when 100% of the right of way is given to the drivers.

The 2 - 4 access points are recreational riding only. they do not have a utility purpose of getting from point A to point B. So fishing and hunting, shopping areas are currently inaccessible to me due to the disabled/ poor, exclusion factor (shun sick). I can get there safely if policy allowed it. I been excluded. Because I can not afford a car due to the chapter 1 issues I wrote. I am more than capable driving I was a shuttle driver at previous employment even with the impairments 1-7.

I know for fact I am not alone I am one of very few who try to do it anyway. Mainly I don't have outside help to bring the things I need to me I have to go get it. Other disabled simply quit, become prisoners to their homes and relying on a failing system that brings the things they need to them. Then I am a prisoner most of the time too. Like today I have not opened my apartment door once.

If you have hard time understanding the following take the red out and read it and vice-versa. It is a dual train of thought intertwined and I do not know how else to word it
The DDA system is failing too the link previously pointed this out about the government and media declared war on the poor disabled.(I did not declare any war, the government and media, elitist did on us. As a means to gut things like the DDA and the ADA we are already in a state of war. Just not an official declaration of war. Problem is they declared war on a group of people who can't even really fight back. We try, but simple fact is, we do not have the advantages of able body people nor the resources) They need another way to get the things they need that is more self reliant. That DOES NOT involve getting them seriously injured or killed by forcing them in to a situation in which negligent drivers don't obey and follow the laws.. Your never going to fix the negligent driver problem(especially when drivers are thinking; "well the other person is doing it. so I am too", or "there are no police around, so I am going to do what I want regardless to if it is illegal" I know this as a FACT because I remind drivers of the law Their answer is ALWAYS pointing to the other drivers saying they are doing it or asking me if I am a cop, knowing full well they are breaking the law that is putting others in danger..), unless you got rid of all the powered vehicles.

So put the slow moving cyclist on the walks and enforce them to follow the ped rules and reeducate the peds about sharing the sidewalk with other people not just cyclist. But then the areas like down town new york USA where its so pact there isn't room to turn around then yes it makes sense not to allow the slow cyclist there.

At the level, fines rates given to cyclists, the poor and disabled will be more willing to follow because that $100+ ticket is major penalty vs their income. Minnesota university MN campus the fine is in access of 100$ for riding in a no bike zone, even at speeds of pedestrians. So someone at poverty level isn't going to risk that kind of fine, Compared to the better offs.

Not all cyclist are speed freaks.

Kind of touched on the other chapters so there you guys happy? _*"THE FLOOR IS OPEN FOR DISCUSSION"*_

---------------------------------------------------
PS
HERE we have a constitutional right of freedom of movement, To freely go from point a to point b within our boarders.

LOAD OF GARP If you are a person of means and a car or money you are free to move about. those on foot or pedal power are excluded from exercising that right. If your a person on foot or pedal power who is doing it as a means to take care of ones self in providing ones self with the necessities of life your doubly screwed. especially if it involves leaving city limits or in the business district.
------------------------------------------------------
On a more up beat note:

seams to be a bit of a joke going around related to hunting. This is what I would be using or a similar homemade version using old bikes The firearm would be in a hard case unloaded. http://www.zoostores.com/shop/catal...d}&mr:match={matchtype}&mr:filter=43099889583 The bike with the bow would need to be in a soft case or hard, It can not be transported on our roads in that fashion. or I invest in a utility cargo bike here is example http://www.madsencycles.com/ This one has a good vid http://grist.org/biking/go-cargo-utility-bikes-take-cities-by-storm/

Oh did I mention I am usually carrying loads yes i am being  HMM the bottom one here at this link.
http://www.rideyourbike.com/cargo.html

Not impressed with its low load capacity especially when it has 2 tires in back to distribute weight.
http://www.torkerusa.com/bikes/utility/2012-tristar-hd I am looking for something that can take about 400lb 150lb deer and cargo, add me

This is of a more practical note for me though that won't kill the bank. https://cycletote.com/our-products/trailers/large-utility
Ball hitch connecting to the seat post. vid of it in action here https://cycletote.com/cycletotes-seatpost-hitch

Hey don't blame me for the super post you wanted it right now Just gave in to peer pressure. lot stuff of relevance probably got dropped this way, Hopefully I covered the main points

disabled rider. by the way my name was chosen on the basis of the medical and social definition of disability with the heavy emphasis on the "exclusion factor"(sunning of sick) , when I chose it.


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## disabled rider (4 Oct 2012)

Crosstrailer said:


> If you have a point please make it concisely. At present I can see this thread going only in one direction.
> 
> PS Hunting deer is cruel and is sport, not a necessity.


 
UM do you eat farm animals or eggs or fish or anything else meat from the store??? They had no choice at all.

UM it isn't sport if the purpose is to eat and use the entire deer. for food and clothing. deer have better chance than, pig or cow not to mention they live free, where most cow pigs etc live in inhumane conditions through out their entire lives. 

need to keep it in perspective. I never said I was sport hunting. it is a necessity, If I can not acquire food by other means.
It is a necessity, that either hunt or you starve to death. Farming is not an option. need land and the rentals are being raided by thieves around here


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## disabled rider (4 Oct 2012)

I have already pointed out my writing sucks I know that I was the person who said it first, I believe. If I wasn't it was probably because I was trying to take some people suggestion to write it out first, which I was doing when some of the posters criticized my technique. and I tried to explain it is related to the nature of my learning disability and hearing loss but I do not write in the same manor I speak nor do I write in the manor I think the cognitive ability is far advanced over the ability to write. 

This has always been an Issue it is not as bad as when I was young where many letters and words were backwards etc.

I naturally read backwards put a book up to the mirror and try to read it. It doesn't slow me down at all.

The poll and the assumption of bazaar choices, is based on past experiences from being banned from three other sites, when I started to discuss the "exclusion factor". So some of the answers was an attempt to figure out what it is that caused the moderators of the other sites to do the ban. So I can try to avoid what ever it was that prompted the ban with no explanation what so ever.

I did point out Interpersonal relation ship problems due to 1, 2 and the torture by peers. this also includes communication. Your seeing the consequences of the torture. 

I have tried to apologize for my short comings. Honest truth of the matter is I should not have to apologize That I am messed up from the experiences I have gone through. I do my part and try to adapt. If you do not like the adaption tough. It is what I needed to do in order to function. I have meet society 1/2 way or more. The more being getting hearing aids in which I can not afford in place of using a pad and pen which is much cheaper form of communication but drives people who use speech crazy.

If you so called tote "inclusion" then allow me to use pad and pen in place of expensive equipment that fails repeatedly and does not perform as it should. like the $3000+ worth of useless hearing aids that you can't even wear if you sweat just a little bit.


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## mr_hippo (4 Oct 2012)

Can I give you the same advice that my dear old Gran gave me? Either 5h1t or get off the pot!
You have a learning disability but finished in the top 20% of your class? Gawd help the other 80%!
Hearing problems? Do you have Eyeballs MkI swivelling and Neck MkIa rotating? Please use them frequently - I have to!
Not happy about cycling laws in Podunk,Minnesota? Stand for election, get into town hall and change them - it''s not rocket surgery, is it?


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## 4F (4 Oct 2012)

So to summise, this is all about you considering the road is a dangerous place to ride on due to a lack of cycle lanes and that you are not permitted to cycle on the side walk ?

I suppose that at least you finally got to the point albeit it in several thousand words.


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## Red Light (4 Oct 2012)

4F said:


> So to summise, this is all about you considering the road is a dangerous place to ride on due to a lack of cycle lanes and that you are not permitted to cycle on the side walk ?
> 
> I suppose that at least you finally got to the point albeit it in several thousand words.


 
Thanks for the precis of his long post - I didn't have time to read the original as I had some paint drying that needed watching.


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## ufkacbln (4 Oct 2012)

Can I please have an answer to my earlier question.

Who is the "us" you refer to when you ststed you are not allowed outside the City limits?
Under what law / rule / statute is this limitation imposed?


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## Longshot (4 Oct 2012)

Disabled Rider, it's clear you have a number of issues combined with an agenda and no little resentment. That's fine. It's also clear that you feel the need to let the world know of your plight. What you are doing is akin to standing on a soapbox at Speaker's Corner raving at the passing masses. This is not helping your cause. May I suggest the following:
1. Examine the issues and the root of your problems
2. Summarise these into a digestible format
3. Find two target audiences - one which will listen, empathise and support you and another which won't but has the power to change these issues
4. Direct your newly focussed communications at those groups

What you're doing now is pointless. Awareness of an issue is great but the way you deliver it is counter-productive to your goals.


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## Mugshot (4 Oct 2012)

4F said:


> So to summise, this is all about you considering the road is a dangerous place to ride on due to a lack of cycle lanes and that you are not permitted to cycle on the side walk ?
> 
> I suppose that at least you finally got to the point albeit it in several thousand words.


Is that what it says? Thanks 4F


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## mangaman (4 Oct 2012)

Can I make a suggestion?

I have been guilty of facetious comments on this thread as I felt disabled rider was trolling, which was probably wrong of me.

MrP made the most sober post pointing out his disability may be making his posts so garbled.

Disabled R has now specifically denied that - so can we consider closing the thread as I can only see it getting nastier as he winds more and more people up.


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## Jodee1kenobi (4 Oct 2012)

mangaman said:


> Can I make a suggestion?
> 
> I have been guilty of facetious comments on this thread as I felt disabled rider was trolling, which was probably wrong of me.
> 
> ...


 +1


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## Mugshot (4 Oct 2012)

mangaman said:


> Disabled R has now specifically denied that - so can we consider closing the thread as I can only see it getting nastier as he winds more and more people up.


I'm not sure too many people are getting wound up mangaman, I think it's more likely that more and more people will simply ignore the thread if DR continues to write such long posts. It's a pity as it may have some potential to be interesting.


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## Cheddar George (4 Oct 2012)

Disabled rider, there is not a problem with your dyslexia, your posts are perfectly understandable in terms of grammar/spelling/punctuation. The problem is that your posts are way too long and meander around the point, sometimes missing it completely.
I can only echo the thoughts of a couple of previous replies - get yourself a website/blog. Write it all down and then edit it at your leisure to make it more concise, sort out all your links and make sure they are relevant.
You must realise by now that jumping into internet forums with monster posts promising all kinds of revelations is not the way to go (this is your third or fourth forum ?)

Hope this helps.


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## snorri (4 Oct 2012)

This thread has reminded me of a song made popular by Perry Como.


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## Mugshot (4 Oct 2012)

Papa Loves Mambo?


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## fossyant (4 Oct 2012)

You will probably find road infrastructures are not designed for cyclists in most of the world OP ! Holland is quite good I believe !


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## disabled rider (4 Oct 2012)

Cunobelin said:


> Can I please have an answer to my earlier question.
> 
> Who is the "us" you refer to when you ststed you are not allowed outside the City limits?
> Under what law / rule / statute is this limitation imposed?


 
I had already answered the question "us" is those who travel by foot or pedal power.

Us is the people who use bike as a utility or walk to do necessary tasks to survive. These people also lack other forms of transport due to expenses, or being shunned from society. Not to mention they do not have the money to pay for cabs to take them. In this area, there are not many choices, even lack of coach bus for example etc. It is disproportionately the poor and disabled who fall in this category. Things like hunting, fishing, neighbor you might help that is outside the city. Those are usually highways. that provide the best access that are being cut off Like highway 52 running from the twin cities down to Rochester back in 90' there was no posted banning of use and I used it every single day for an entire summer to get access to food source at a river near the highway. There are no other locations as good as this spot to which to bag the limit. There is also a lot of hunting land in that direction as well. As far as I know there are no back roads that will go to these locations. Not to mention the back roads require you to ride on the lane proper. 52 has a 10ft or so shoulder. There is absolutely NO buffeting by wind turbulence off large trucks and rigs. 20 miles every day entire summer.

The access points for in and out, are recreational, They usually go everywhere, but where you need to go. They don't have utility, unless you happen to get lucky and the place you go is the small town it connects to.

I need direct routes, NOT long roundabout. I did mention I had heart surgery. so a 10 mile detuer is pretty big deal for me, on top of the other 10 miles so to speak That be 40 round trip add carrying a load 

------------------------------------------------------------

I am going to add the comment about someone reference to the welfare of MN. UM ITS A JOKE. you fell for the propaganda of the state government and elitist. I can tell you now the one service in which the state pays I been kicked off in a manor they manipulated the way the SSDI cost of living increases at a higher rate as the income limit for medical services. Because they were not lock stepped I no longer have the most important state service I need Medical assistance. any other service I currently receive is actually federal programs NOT STATE. 

Food assistance $16. rent "section 8" which is FEDERAL $175 (If I move I loose section 8.) QMB which is another federal not state. stand to loose that in January when they increase cost of living again if they don't lock it. QMB only pays the deductible of medicare 20%. I do not have the resources to cover the 20% thus loosing QMB I LOOSE ALL MEDICAL HELP. 1 step forward on paper = 4 steps back in reality.

Welfare its self(Cash assistance.) is only given to the disabled, elderly, pregnant women with a cap of 3 years life time, I believe. and it doesn't even begin to cover basic needs. I do not get to touch this, because I am collecting DISABILITY INSURANCE, NOT WELFARE.
But then who ever asks the people who are actually using the services or not using them due to the system being gamed to exclude? There is so much red tape and exclusions its NO laughing matter. On paper yes it may look as if MN has a good or posh program In reality its not.

Here is another fact check the elitist , rulers or "power to be" are doing to artificially inflate the numbers. As a means to show that more money is being spent, they doctored the calculation forms for deciding food assistance. the vast majority get 16$ about. Pay attention to this next part this is the part that inflates the numbers to show more is being spent in order to justify cutting the 16$ down even further.
On the calculation sheet under the energy they use a flat number. If you pay 8$ for air conditioning a month. The number that goes in there is in excess of $100 not the $8 that is actually spent. This artificially increases the amount of food assistance for that person up in excess of $100 in food assistance for that 1 person. instead of the $16 now take that 16$ into the excess of the $100 and that is the number of people that is using the food program. So 1 person is representing in excess of 5 people. Then the republicans can scream bloody murder we got runaway spending and kill what little money is actually getting paid reducing the $16 down to say $5. Then that person that was getting in access of 100$ is going to loose the extra after the election.

This is how the war on the poor and disabled and old is taking place here. paper says things are good, reality its going backwards.

last year the republicans/ some Dem(elitist where the driving force) tried to cut ALL of the assistance programs the disabled used. our Governor vetoed the bill. And the State shut down. In the end the republicans/ some Dem, got what they wanted no services for the 99% republicans/ some Dem, either got to cut us off or they got the funding stopped for the 99% It was a win for republicans/ some Dem, no matter how it played out. Point is we are on death row. If we can't figure out a way to survive without society. 

The irony is, its not even the disabled who are causing the money issue, its the people, illegally committing tax evasion by purchasing online from sites outside MN. And same people are not sending the 7 cent sales tax to the state via mail as is required under law. $100 purchase $7 goes to the state. The top 1 % have their own way of evading their tax responsibility.
Yet again, who gets stuck paying the sales tax?? Poor who can't afford a computer that are forced to purchase from the brick and mortar business like walmart..


Thus this is pushing me to take drastic action , taking up hunting, fishing, etc which all require getting out of the city. And Moving is not an option. Also means, my getting there is totally reliant on bike.

Freedom of movement has been banned(highways are posted as no access for bikes) for my use because of the mode of transport to which I have available to me. Asking for rides is not possible, when there is literally no one to ask. Any of the people that might give me a ride live minimum 20 minutes outside the city 40 minute round trip, not including taking me to where I need to go. Their farm would go under, wasting that kind of time. not to mention gas expense being high. That 20 minutes does not include the drive time in city.

May have to take up a new Motto "Bike or die!"and break few laws while your at it  

disabled rider


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## mangaman (4 Oct 2012)

Mugshot said:


> I'm not sure too many people are getting wound up mangaman, I think it's more likely that more and more people will simply ignore the thread if DR continues to write such long posts. It's a pity as it may have some potential to be interesting.


 
Maybe wound up was the wrong expression,

Bored and irritated maybe.

I can only see it descending into progressive mickey taking out of him.

I see he has just posted another novella about the hunting and fishing life of the disabled Minnesotan without any relevance to this forum, I doubt anyone here has a clue what he's on about. Surely a polite suggestion from the Mods that he tries a relevant forum instead would help prevent him getting abuse on here and even get the answers he needs.


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## glasgowcyclist (4 Oct 2012)

Hi DR,

with some effort I've read through your lengthy explanation of the problems you encounter.

Other than recognising problems that we _all_ face as cyclists, I was struck by one particular comment


> "Your never going to fix the negligent driver problem ... unless you got rid of all the powered vehicles."


 
This hardly seems either likely or even helpful when you consider how many disabled people rely on adapted motorised vehicles for their mobility. Wouldn't you therefore be condemning people in your position to the life of exclusion you're arguing against? 

GC


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## Mugshot (4 Oct 2012)

mangaman said:


> Maybe wound up was the wrong expression,
> 
> Bored and irritated maybe.
> 
> ...


That's fair, asking the questions would help too.


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## disabled rider (4 Oct 2012)

mangaman said:


> Can I make a suggestion?
> 
> I have been guilty of facetious comments on this thread as I felt disabled rider was trolling, which was probably wrong of me.
> 
> ...


 
I denied what? What I said is: of what seams as being garbled is related to the learning disability and hearing loss
Not some other one that someone else mentioned starting with an A. 

Short term memory has a major role in keeping order of the different points. not to mention dyslexia. hearing played a role during the development years which degrades writing ability. People learn to communicate first by voice then writing. opps can't hear what your saying, thus learning to write was that much harder.


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## glasgowcyclist (4 Oct 2012)

mangaman said:


> Surely a polite suggestion from the Mods that he tries a relevant forum instead would help prevent him getting abuse on here and even get the answers he needs.


 

I disagree.

Shaun has already edited a couple of posts and reminded the membership to at least be civil to this guy, surely we're able to do that?

Nobody should be encouraged to leave a forum to avoid abuse, that's just as unacceptable as telling cyclists to stay off the roads to avoid bad drivers.

GC


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## on the road (4 Oct 2012)

glasgowcyclist said:


> I disagree.
> 
> Shaun has already edited a couple of posts and reminded the membership to at least be civil to this guy, surely we're able to do that?
> 
> ...


But is what he's talking about (whatever that is) relevant here?


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## gary in derby (4 Oct 2012)

swl said:


> I don't


nor me! have you ever tried getting a bike with three pedels?


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## glasgowcyclist (4 Oct 2012)

on the road said:


> But is what he's talking about (whatever that is) relevant here?


 
He's a disabled cyclist who's complaining about what he sees are restrictions and limitations on his cycling that he feels are unjust and adversely affect his life.

Admittedly it took a while to tease that out of him but it would seem to be a relevant topic for CC.

GC


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## Crosstrailer (4 Oct 2012)

Hunting deer, particularly with a bow, is cruel and it is sport IMO.

I am out of this thread as I am sure the word count is now up at around 7000 (I really can't be bothered to check again) and the only thing that seems to be said is that Disabled Rider is peed off because he can't ride his bike down a motorway and has to take a ten mile detour. If you are strong enough my friend to ride back with a slaughtered deer then as far as I am concerned a 10 mile detour is not a major issue.


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## disabled rider (4 Oct 2012)

Cheddar George said:


> Disabled rider, there is not a problem with your dyslexia, your posts are perfectly understandable in terms of grammar/spelling/punctuation. The problem is that your posts are way too long and meander around the point, sometimes missing it completely.
> I can only echo the thoughts of a couple of previous replies - get yourself a website/blog. Write it all down and then edit it at your leisure to make it more concise, sort out all your links and make sure they are relevant.
> You must realise by now that jumping into internet forums with monster posts promising all kinds of revelations is not the way to go (this is your third or fourth forum ?)
> 
> Hope this helps.


 
Honestly that is what I was thinking especially the super post above. Felt pressured to hurry up and get it done. I wanted to do it as chapters so as to break it in pieces. Just sad people just don't seam to have patience much these days. The very first post was meant to be kind of guide to try to stop what happened in the other 3 forums. To try to help keep it civil when its a real sensitive issue that looks at people character and how they treat others and how their actions harm the ones that were excluded by said actions. See the reason the blasting by other posters did not really get to me is its like calling me names or implying this or that, I can deal with that. The part that really hurts and is the reason I am in the predicament, I am in, is the "exclusion factor" form of discrimination of not including me. This is totally devastating. I am being backed into a corner, that if I don't break laws, I will die from the inability to take care of myself. The freedom of movement of cycling is the ONLY means for me to carry out a large part of taking care of myself. Getting food getting supplies. etc. I am more than capable of caring for myself if society would let me. I have a very strong sense of justice, especially when actions were not taken against certain people in my past. AS a result I also go out of my way to ensure I follow rules minus the sidewalk thing. OK this just jarred a memory "Complex-PTSD" DSM4 here in USA won't recognize it, nor will the DSM5 that will be coming out. But I believe the UK does?  This actually may explain my erratic posting better? sustained decades long torture by peers My personality was damaged by said torture, I was a carefree happy kid at 5 and like a light switch, when the torture started, my personality was for ever changed permanently. My mother yanked me from school for a year, damage was done, I never recovered. The move in the usa not to recognize C-PTSD is mainly ties to a can of worms that its a psychological injury and not an illness, inflicted by the actions or lack of actions of others. This opens the door of justice against those that do harm of long periods. Which modern capitalism today is guilty of doing (Bullying in the work place)..

The suggestions about blog I take to heart I have tried it in past, just went un-heard, (blowing air with no redress for action) because I wasn't networked with other people? not a clue I don't dare join face book or other social media due to fall out in the real world, when certain people found out. I also been seeing reports that bloggers are getting hammered by those who do not want the dirty laundry aired so to speak.

I was trying a different tactic here, than the other three related the the "exclusion factor"(not necessarily about bikes in those ones,. one was about internet access which in essence violates the ADA title 3 especially after the netflix ruling. Since I can not physically go, I used internet to bring them to me, problem, I was being blocked, by who I shall not mention to keep that off topic stuff out of this forum.. The banning were related directly to: when it dealt with the social model of disability. People did not really like the idea that their direct or indirect actions was harming other people. When it came to the exclusion factor. One person had the gall to tell me to get a job. That was when I went into the nuts and bolts of the nature of the exclusion and it wasn't even related to the actions or lack of actions on my part that is stopping me from working. 

gist of what I been trying to say is I have a particular disability that would get me killed if I try to ride on the street without some kind of dedicated space for the bike that keeps the cars completely off. Negligent drivers are the ones that will kill me, especially with the FACT my disabilities are all hidden to the naked eye. Drivers assume I am normal, that I can hear them that I will move out of the way when I hear them, well guess what I didn't move when they expected me too because of false assumptions that they have right away etc among the many other things they do when they are driving that they really should not be. 

Only place for me is on the side walk, with me following pedestrian rules. This has worked for 6+ years. until now. Neighbors in this building are forcing or trying to force the police in to taking actions in which the police do not want to do. Police here do not want me on the street any more than I do. Police do not get to interpret the law. They have to up hold it when a civilian forces their hand. Thus forcing me onto the street where even police fear I would get killed. 

Thing is if it wasn't for the law and the civilians trying to exclude , This would not even have been an issue at all. I have a 100% safety record and I am dang proud of it, considering that they say statistics speaking that side walk is more dangerous.
The key is which set of rules, you use, when riding on side walks. pedestrian rules not the street rules. Meaning that you go no faster than a jog. unless the conditions allow it. And the must of being able to stop on the dime. Assume you do not have right away at any time. Look every where where traffic might pop out at you. That is in front of you not behind you.

Disabled Rider


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## Shaun (4 Oct 2012)

Okay, so you have to ride on the sidewalk but you feel it is being made difficult for you when it has otherwise been okay for the past few years.

What are you hoping to get from posting about it here? What do you believe we can do to assist/advise?


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## Mugshot (4 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> gist of what I been trying to say is I have a particular disability that would get me killed if I try to ride on the street without some kind of dedicated space for the bike that keeps the cars completely off. Negligent drivers are the ones that will kill me, especially with the FACT my disabilities are all hidden to the naked eye. Drivers assume I am normal, that I can hear them that I will move out of the way when I hear them, well guess what I didn't move when they expected me too because of false assumptions that they have right away etc among the many other things they do when they are driving that they really should not be.
> 
> Only place for me is on the side walk, with me following pedestrian rules. This has worked for 6+ years. until now. Neighbors in this building are forcing or trying to force the police in to taking actions in which the police do not want to do. Police here do not want me on the street any more than I do. Police do not get to interpret the law. They have to up hold it when a civilian forces their hand. Thus forcing me onto the street where even police fear I would get killed.
> 
> ...


Thank you 
Are you saying that your neighbours are speaking to the police specifically to stop you from riding on the "side walks"? If they are what has changed from 6 years ago?


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## disabled rider (4 Oct 2012)

Shaun said:


> Okay, so you have to ride on the sidewalk but you feel it is being made difficult for you when it has otherwise been okay for the past few years.
> 
> What are you hoping to get from posting about it here? What do you believe we can do to assist/advise?


 
Actually I been on the side walks for the last 6+ years. 

Civilians / neighbors are trying to force me on to the road , using the letter of the law, where I will go splat under some negligent driver.


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## black'n'yellow (4 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> Negligent drivers are the ones that will kill me,


 
negligent drivers will kill anyone...because they're negligent.


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## Linford (4 Oct 2012)

Boy, you're good


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## Canrider (4 Oct 2012)

Not having read the entire thread, a couple pages back I noticed you saying you couldn't use a rearview mirror because you needed to hear traffic coming in order to know to look in it.

This doesn't entirely make sense to me:
- In a car you can't generally hear traffic behind you, you should be periodically checking your mirrors as you drive along. Surely this is the same if you're riding a bike with mirrors?
- On a bike even if you can hear, I find wind noise makes it impossible for me to hear much of what's behind me unless it's very loud and very close.
- People cycle with earphones in. I don't, and some claim they're foolish to do so, but the earphone wearers are not dying under car wheels in any great numbers despite not being able to hear oncoming traffic.


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## ianrauk (4 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> Actually I been on the side walks for the last 6+ years.
> 
> Civilians / neighbors are trying to force me on to the road , using the letter of the law, where I will go splat under some negligent driver.


 

if only this was your first post.....


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## disabled rider (4 Oct 2012)

Mugshot said:


> Thank you
> Are you saying that your neighbours are speaking to the police specifically to stop you from riding on the "side walks"? If they are what has changed from 6 years ago?


 
do you understand the concept that a law isn't a law, if it is not enforced by peace officers or court systems??

The law was there, but wasn't being enforced, by the police, for my safety. The Police recognized, that I had a need, that needed to be filled, so I could participate in society. They were allowing me to participate by not enforcing a discriminatory bike law, which would exclude me from participating. 

Now neighbors who want to break the law themselves by loitering on the public sidewalk and choking off the path from other users. Thus NOT share it with me. They use the lettering of the law and go complain to the peace officers, which then forces the peace officer to enforce the letter of the law.

Thus now illegal for me to be on the side walk.
Because the police will be finally forced by people who want to exclude me from participating. in cycling , I cycle for necessity not recreational.


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## Mugshot (4 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> The law was there, but wasn't being enforced, by the police, for my safety. The Police recognized, that I had a need, that needed to be filled, so I could participate in society. They were allowing me to participate by not enforcing a discriminatory bike law, which would exclude me from participating.
> 
> Now neighbors who want to break the law themselves by loitering on the public sidewalk and choking off the path from other users. Thus NOT share it with me. They use the lettering of the law and go complain to the peace officers, which then forces the peace officer to enforce the letter of the law.
> 
> ...


Ok.
So why now? What's changed that your neighbours feel the need to;
a) Loiter
b) Get you off the path
c) both
I assume if you feel they're breaking the law themselves you've mentioned this when approached by any police officers?


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## Shaun (4 Oct 2012)

So it boils down to an issue - specifically - with your neighbours. Okay, so how do you feel us members of the CycleChat community can help with this?


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## 4F (4 Oct 2012)

Could you not wheel your bicycle as a pedestrian past the loitering neighbours before proceeding with the rest of your journey ? There seems to be an underlying issue / fallout with your neighbours that has bought this matter to a head.


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## Mugshot (4 Oct 2012)

[QUOTE 2076642, member: 45"]And what can we, a big bit of water away, do about it?[/quote]
Sod all, but having invested my time reading the posts my interest was piqued sufficiently to ask a couple of questions.
My ability to do anything about anything that anybody posts anywhere on this forum is practically non existant with or without a large body of water.


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## Longshot (4 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> do you understand the concept that a law isn't a law, if it is not enforced by peace officers or court systems??


 
Whoaaaa there Dobbin.

That's not a fact. It's not even remotely correct. It's just an excuse to make yourself feel better.


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## fossyant (4 Oct 2012)

I'd echo what 4F says - is there any way you can wheel the bike past the neighbours ? What is your mobility like off the bike ? I ask this as we've a number of paralympic cyclists in the UK who are world class athletes on the bike, but once 'off' the bike it's obvious to see their disabilities (i.e. mobility).

Is this just one or two people causing the problem ? TBH Police in the UK turn a complete blind eye to pavement cycling most of the time. Sounds like your local Police understand, but some 'locals' don't see it that way. 

Do you stop and chat to those blocking your way so you can make them understand your situation. I assume they 'know you' so should understand you have disabilities.


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## Boris Bajic (4 Oct 2012)

4F said:


> Could you not wheel your bicycle as a pedestrian past the loitering neighbours before proceeding with the rest of your journey ? There seems to be an underlying issue / fallout with your neighbours that has bought this matter to a head.


 
Why should anyone (ANYONE) pay any attention to a moggie with fruit on its head?

Well... I seem to have resolved any outstanding issues on this thread, so we can all get back to whatever it was we were trying to avoid by being here.

Don't thank me.


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## mangaman (4 Oct 2012)

glasgowcyclist said:


> I disagree.
> 
> Shaun has already edited a couple of posts and reminded the membership to at least be civil to this guy, surely we're able to do that?
> 
> ...


 
I wasn't making myself very clear.

He has a problem which he doesn't specify - if he genuinely wants to debate issues around that problem he might be better advised to

a) specify exactly what he wants us to debate
b) post it on a more appropriate forum

As for him getting abuse, I agree we shouldn't - but if he carries on the way he's posting it will happen.

I don't want him banned, just maybe a PM suggesting if he needs help with some aspects of Minnesotan traffic laws and disabled cycling he could try a Minnesotan cycling forum.

EDIT - I see he has now clarified his problem a bit - I still feel he would be better writing to the local paper or speaking to someone in authority there rather than randomly picking this forum


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## disabled rider (4 Oct 2012)

Canrider said:


> Not having read the entire thread, a couple pages back I noticed you saying you couldn't use a rearview mirror because you needed to hear traffic coming in order to know to look in it.
> 
> This doesn't entirely make sense to me:
> - In a car you can't generally hear traffic behind you, you should be periodically checking your mirrors as you drive along. Surely this is the same if you're riding a bike with mirrors?
> ...


 
LOL knew this was coming. I also mention the principle of mirror use between car and bike is totally different. Placing and size of mirrors is critical to be effective. In a car the mirrors are placed in positions where they do the most good. and are lined correctly by the frame of the car so that the mirrors are always correctly pointing in the right direction. 

That is not so easy to do on a bike without some kind of huge framing to hold the mirror in the ideal position 3 to 4 ft in front of you just above the head height There is also the factor of lining said mirror up so you can actually see the traffic behind you head or handle bars have to be in an exact position of angle to see. Honest truth is, if the mirror is less than 4 inches, they are very difficult to use to judge distance correctly

car armor plating all around you thus less likely to die, bike not so much, There is not as much need to be as vigilant in the car as it is on bike

Thus car for deaf has 3 Four inch mirrors or bigger strategically placed. I added a parabola mirror 3 inch high by 12 in long over the center one absolutely NO blind spots the 3 mirrors is required by law for deaf/ hard of hearing here in the USA.
They studied how important sound is and knowing direction when driving. If it is important in driving its doubly important in biking, if your going to use the road.

If you have no loss to your hearing you may not even be aware how big of an impact your hearing plays. I gradually lost mine since 5 years old. So I have become hyper aware. I miss my hearing.

Also mirrors off the handle bars in my experience was broken off by driver NOT giving the clearance of 3 ft. That was too close for comfort for me and I switched to the sidewalk. similar to this http://www.cheapcycleparts.com/prod...lebar-mirror?gclid=CN_8mduy57ICFao7MgodAF4AVg

As to the earphone I been reading its bigger problem, than people realize. Maybe its not being recorded properly as being contributor to the accident. Then there are thousands of other reasons too. Example the person who was wearing said ear phones took them out, before cops could get there, so as not to be a party of fault. From cop point, if you had ear buds in, your a greater fault, in the accident for impairing your own hearing. And the insurance company of the driver is going to have a field day with them.

Kind of how taser and death issue, is being recorded as "excited delirium" or other underlying heath problem is at fault and not the taser.. Person never would have died if they had not been tased. due to way its being forced to be recorded, mainly by the bullying of taser international.

It depends on who you listen too. and the criteria they used to record incidents.


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## Canrider (4 Oct 2012)

> That is not so easy to do on a bike without some kind of huge framing to hold the mirror in the ideal position 3 to 4 ft in front of you just above the head height


Yessss, it's amazing how all those motorcycles and scooters are going around with their mirrors 3-4' in front of the rider...


> Thus car for deaf has 3 Four inch mirrors or bigger strategically placed


This would be a standard setup for any car over here, and a legal requirement for all cars built after 2010. I haven't been able to find *anything* regarding legal mirror requirements for hearing impaired drivers bar a page from the California DMV saying 'deaf drivers should look around more'.


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## Boris Bajic (4 Oct 2012)

If it's any help (I fear it may not be) my wife manages to apply her make up using a tiny little mirror that flips up out of some sort of compact.

It is circular and about 3cm in diameter. No blind spots. Perfection achieved every time. Never been knocked out of her hand by a negligent driver.


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## mattobrien (4 Oct 2012)

DR, I have a question. 

Why do you need to move out of the way of cars/ why do they expect you to move out of the way?

Over here in Blighty there are generally two cycling positions, secondary (nearer the kerb) or primary which would see you occupying the centre of the lane you are travelling in, or there abouts.

If a cyclist is cycling in either of these positions it is fairly standard for cars to overtake the cyclist and hopefully they will even wait until it is safe to do so, but not always. 

If a cyclist is cycling in secondary then there isn't a way for them to move out of the way and if they are in primary it is for a reason and again they won't be moving out of the way, it is up to the car to wait to pass safely.

I am sure things could work differently over the pond, but why do cars expect you to get out of the way?

I also have another question and apologies if you have answered this already, why don't you look over your should while cycling to see what is behind you?

Personally I wouldn't feel safe if I were cycling and I didn't know what was behind me. I use bother hearing and vision to do this. I understand that you, along with many other cyclists have a hearing impairment, but are you able to look behind you?


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## Canrider (4 Oct 2012)

mattobrien said:


> I am sure things could work differently over the pond, but why do cars expect you to get out of the way?


On this narrow point, the average NAmerican driver is faaar less tolerant of cyclists than the average British driver. I'd also argue the standard of driving in general is lower.


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## disabled rider (4 Oct 2012)

Mugshot said:


> Ok.
> So why now? What's changed that your neighbours feel the need to;
> a) Loiter
> b) Get you off the path
> ...


 
I do not really like characterizing people like this: 8 old sick people, who have no part to play in society, are miserable people. Who like to make misery for others to feel better about themselves. They go outside to smoke 1/2 use mobility devices. Instead of parking them in a row along the side of the side walk they park in a big jumbled knot taking most to all of the with of the side walk. These particular residents think that they have a right to force an unrealistic mold on to other people. They are mad that they got forced out of the drafty building to smoke. Due to secondhand smoke causing health problems for the non smokers. in their own apartments from the draft effect. They live to make other peoples lives miserable I am not the only one targeted by them. They probably got bored riding the others, who are in the social areas and decided to nail me for a while again.:beatdeadhorse:

I got a copy of the city ordnance and read it to them. They willfully ignored it, I gave said copy of ordinance to management at the tower. Requesting that they share it with the 160 apartment in the building. They have not done so.

there is a bit of confusion on the law as well in regards to the state saying no bikes on side walks in business district unless the local authorities give permission to do so

the local ordinance Writes 
bicycle restriction: any area that is posted as no biking is off limits.

when you put them together there is two ways to read it. first no business district and no areas where it says no biking. If this is true then what is the purpose of putting up the no biking sign in the peace plaza when it is smack dab middle of the business district and putting a sign up at a stretch of trail across form the government center by the river which is not in the business district?

Or it can be read as by the local ordinance putting in a restriction, it in effect saying, you can ride every where else but the restricted posted area.  This would explain the no biking sign in peace plaza but no where else in the business district.

we have 4-5 business districts here so saying you can ride here here here and having to establish between address here and here and here It can get bogged down and confusing. (knowing this I had assumed the restriction in the local ordinance was the permission to ride in the business district on the walks. With the exception of the posted areas by sign.)

But the gang above is taking the first described. 

They have tried to get me evicted for other lame stuff too like BO, well yea been biking, what else am I suppose to do?Get a body morgue bag and zip myself inside, while I hop upstairs, before I suffocate to death, Take a quick shower, Put on toxic Body odor control chems that I am sensitive too, hoping no one steals anything left down stairs? They went to the health department and everything, for BO . Trying to twist the system to force their standard of a mold. This drove the management nuts and the management did not say one word to me about the whole thing, Bless their souls.I over heard it when it came up in a community meeting with the building owner. By the way this is a senior housing with 10% disabled. their idea of mold is everyone is a senior or has obvious externally recognized disabilities, leg braces, power chairs etc. I don't fit that mold of disability either. I just want to be me.

when they go forward with the police action, telling the police about the blocking and loitering is going to be petty revenge in the police eyes. And just make things worse.

I do not care if they smoke on the sidewalk even though I am allergic to it, as long as they share the side walk. I have told these folk repeatedly that I am, But never told them to stop especially when they are polluting my air I am breathing in.. 

disabled rider


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## Canrider (4 Oct 2012)

Dude, this is rapidly moving away from anything to do with your cycling. If you're going out deerhunting on a bicycle, surely you can haul yours past 4x 'mobility devices' and resume normal riding service..


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## Jodee1kenobi (4 Oct 2012)




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## disabled rider (4 Oct 2012)

mattobrien said:


> DR, I have a question.
> 
> Why do you need to move out of the way of cars/ why do they expect you to move out of the way?
> 
> ...


 
will recap, I wrote it in the really super post.

The way the law is written They tell you, you have the same rights and privileges as a car. Here is the catch you have to by law, ride as close to the curb or parked car as possible to your right. only time your allowed to leave that position is to do a left turn or pass something in front of you. Oh we drive on the right side. head on traffic is on your left. You are allowed to do two abreast but in single lane traffic you have to go single file to let the cars behind you pass.

In a double lane bikers can do two abreast in the right of the two lanes unless turning left. This forces the following cars behind the two bikers to do a lawful full lane pass where they move their car entirely in to the left lane completely over the divider line.

When your alone you can not take the whole lane , in order, to force the car behind you to follow the correct passing of the full lane pass as described previous. In order to pass by law you MUST do a full lane merge to the left to pass the one on the right.

When We are forced to ride far right it leaves most of the lane open BUT not enough space to give the 3 ft clearance right away off the left handlebar. drivers either stay entirely in the lane in 98% of the cases or 1% does a 1/2 lane pass where the car only goes over the divider line 1/2 using both lanes to pass instead of the 1 lane to pass required by law which is the last 1%. 

For proper clearance to not have to merge in to the left lane fully, the right lane needs to be 18ish ft absolute minimum? it might be wider if it large truck 3 ft biker all the way right and the 3ft clearance and the space for the widest truck, Problem is when Our city was laid out it never accounted for this. Then you add street side parking another 6ft I think? 

So when We ride on the street we are using the right 6 ft of the right lane when the 3ft clearance is followed WHICH IS NOT by 98%

HEE HEE I have advantage over other drivers I got free driver safety training, not once, but twice from the state trooper when I worked for the state Minnesota conservation Corp. on top of the drivers Ed when I was 18. safety training was once a year two years in row. it was mainly for insurance purposes for the state fleet. Like NOT using cruise control while driving in the winter. ABS brakes disengaging when doing sharp swerves. Couple of troupers rolled their cars, because of this disengage.

OK the look over shoulder same issue as the mirror with a twist. it would have to be done frequently, when you do, your not looking where your going. The faster the traffic is going in comparison with you the more you have to look back meaning even less time eyes forward. Then you have to be-careful not to do the turn your bars the opposite direction from the direction in which you are trying to look causing you do dive to the right.

Then the fore mentioned, safety training, I took, said you KEEP EYE FORWARD opps I was looking back when the idiot getting out of their parked car illegally opened their door right in front of me  causing you to close-line your neck on the top of their door 

We had a lot of nonsense laws in mn books. not common sense. like it is the law you must have a beard if your a man. Guess what I do hee hee.

disabled rider


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## on the road (4 Oct 2012)

Canrider said:


> If you're going out deerhunting on a bicycle, surely you can haul yours past 4x 'mobility devices' and resume normal riding service.


So is this what it's all about then?


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## mattobrien (4 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> OK the look over shoulder same issue as the mirror with a twist. it would have to be done frequently, when you do, your not looking where your going. The faster the traffic is going in comparison with you the more you have to look back meaning even less time eyes forward. Then you have to be-careful not to do the turn your bars the opposite direction from the direction in which you are trying to look causing you do dive to the right.
> 
> Then the fore mentioned, safety training, I took, said you KEEP EYE FORWARD


 
Not wanting to sound unkind, but if you can't look behind you without turning your handlebars in the wrong direction, then you may have bigger issues than you think.

Observation is key and not just forward observation, side observation and rear observation. It doesn't take a second to look behind you so this ought not to be a big distraction from you navigating a safe path ahead.

As for parked cars, give them room not to door you or keep an eye out for people sitting in them likely to door you and act appropriately.

I hope I have followed the correct rules in quoting your post, apologies if not.


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## disabled rider (4 Oct 2012)

Canrider said:


> Dude, this is rapidly moving away from anything to do with your cycling. If you're going out deerhunting on a bicycle, surely you can haul yours past 4x 'mobility devices' and resume normal riding service..


 
4x mobility devices? 4 wheel? motor vehicle?

Financial constraints imposed by the exclusion factor

2 wheel about 500-800$ no gas no insurance no licensing fees etc. vs
4 wheel $2100- $8000 gas, insurance, licensing fees, Maintenance trouble finding parking possible parking meter fees regular basis.
How many times have I said Poor? i for got. I am poor.

its not rapidly moving away connection between cycling, drivers, civilian/ peds/ laws conflict / discriminates based on poor/disabled / excludes. it all ties together.

My whole thread is about not enough is being done to ensure the safety of persons with needs to minimize the dangers to levels that of people of means, enjoy , with the same level of inclusion in society , in their rights to freedom of movement


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## Mugshot (4 Oct 2012)

Have a read of this blokes blog Click Here. He may have some useful hints and tips for you and he appears to be pretty knowledgable when it comes to cycling regs in the US.


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## on the road (4 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> How many times have I said Poor? i for got. I am poor.


So I'm poor and I'm not complaining.


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## Mugshot (4 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> 4x mobility devices? 4 wheel? motor vehicle?


At the risk of speaking for Canrider, I believe he was asking you why you couldn't just wheel your bicycle around the people in their mobility scooters, or whatever it is they are in/on.


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## Cyclopathic (4 Oct 2012)

Have you considered forming an action group in your area that could involve other people who have similar issues. By banding together and presenting your case as a group you might get more notice taken of the points that you raise. Authorities can easily dismiss the complaints of one person but it gets much more difficult for them to do this when a lot or even some people are involved and saying the same things.


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## Cyclopathic (4 Oct 2012)

on the road said:


> So I'm poor and I'm not complaining.


You think you've got it bad. I haven't even had enough money this year to replace my butlers uniform. He's still wearing last seasons cut.


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## Mugshot (4 Oct 2012)




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## Oldspice (4 Oct 2012)

Just sounds like your neighbours were not bothered with you till something ticked them off. Your not supposed to ride on the pavement anyhow and if your not capable of riding on the road (some people aren't) then don't ride a bike! SIMPLE!

As for coming on to this forum to moan, it's your choice but why have you not gone to the 'MFC' that will offer you better help and support than this place ever could. Is it because you have been kicked off? Like i said in a previous post, just change your name and try not to ramble so much and they will never know it's you.

It's just not logical to come to 'Cycle Chat' when you have the 'Minnesota Cycling Federation' right on your door step who has the ability to help you and may also fund some kind of transport that you may be capable of using ie trike. Unless it is one of the three sites you have been banned from?

http://www.mcf.net/


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## Oldspice (4 Oct 2012)

Cyclopathic said:


> You think you've got it bad. I haven't even had enough money this year to replace my butlers uniform. He's still wearing last seasons cut.


 
What's the maid wearing


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## disabled rider (4 Oct 2012)

mattobrien said:


> Not wanting to sound unkind, but if you can't look behind you without turning your handlebars in the wrong direction, then you may have bigger issues than you think.
> 
> Observation is key and not just forward observation, side observation and rear observation. It doesn't take a second to look behind you so this ought not to be a big distraction from you navigating a safe path ahead.
> 
> ...


 
Your doing fine.

we are not allowed to give the door room. in doing so we have to ride center of lane the entire street, which was the catch i was talking about earlier. (FAR RIGHT NO EXCEPTIONS, except to turn left or pass something say a car that did a bad parallel park and is sticking 1/2 way out. when riding by parked cars must ride as close to the car as possible without hitting them)  the turning the bars by accident is due to the frequency of looking over your shoulder and the traffic in the business district here is so congested at speed of up to 20-30 miles an hour. To ensure your not going to get run over you would need to keep your head over your shoulder looking back because the spacing of cars is often a 1/2 or 1 car length at most during the day. I probably am cruising at maybe 3-5 miles an hour? Don't have speed odometer on bike so not sure of my speed.

Not trying to make excuses here just trying to explain reality. some times what we think is not always translate to real world circumstances.

"the turn in opposite direction is a normal reaction that has to be trained to overcome." quoting the trooper Dewey, if I remembered his name right.

any way signing off been at this for more than 12 hours I think  

Take care.


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## mangaman (4 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> will recap, I wrote it in the really super post....Here is the catch you have to by law, ride as close to the curb or parked car as possible to your right.....


 
I won't quote your whole post as it was really rather super and quite long.

I've got a day off today, so I've had time to check the Minnesota cycling laws.

As you rightly say, they stipulate

"Every person operating a bicycle upon a roadway shall ride as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway"

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/bin/getp...22&keyword_type=any&keyword=bicycle+operation

This is clearly madness and you have my sympathy - in the UK it is acknowledged that the kerb has drain covers, potholes, trash etc and drivers should anticipate cyclists moving away from the curve or wobbling.


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## Oldspice (4 Oct 2012)

http://www.havefunbiking.com/mncyclist-advocacy-minnesota.php

Try here for help or guidance


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## glasgowcyclist (4 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> Here is the catch you have to by law, ride as close to the curb or parked car as possible to your right.


 
That's not what the statute says. I'll quote it here:

_"Every person operating a bicycle upon a roadway shall ride as close as _
_ practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway..." _except_ "..when reasonably necessary to avoid conditions, _
_ including fixed or moving objects, vehicles, pedestrians, _
_ animals, surface hazards, or narrow width lanes, that make it _
_ unsafe to continue along the right-hand curb or edge. "_

I'd ride as far out as I need to be safe. There's bound to be one of the foregoing exceptions existing to justify it.


GC


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## Oldspice (4 Oct 2012)

mangaman said:


> I won't quote your whole post as it was really rather super and quite long.
> 
> I've got a day off today, so I've had time to check the Minnesota cycling laws.
> 
> ...


 
You never read the whole of part 4! These laws are not overly dramatic!

Subd. 3. * Clinging to vehicle.* Persons riding upon
any 

bicycle

, coaster, roller skates, toboggan, sled, skateboard,
or toy vehicle shall not attach the same or themselves to any
street car or vehicle upon a roadway.

Subd. 4. * Riding on roadway or shoulder.* (a) Every
person operating a 

bicycle

 upon a roadway shall ride as close as
practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway except
under any of the following situations:

(1) when overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding
in the same direction;

(2) when preparing for a left turn at an intersection or
into a private road or driveway;

(3) when reasonably necessary to avoid conditions,
including fixed or moving objects, vehicles, pedestrians,
animals, surface hazards, or narrow width lanes, that make it
unsafe to continue along the right-hand curb or edge.


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## Mugshot (4 Oct 2012)

glasgowcyclist said:


> That's not what the statute says. I'll quote it here:
> 
> _"Every person operating a bicycle upon a roadway shall ride as close as _
> _ practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway..." _except_ "..when reasonably necessary to avoid conditions, _
> ...


 
This.
Also what does practicable mean in this situation? I'm guessing it doesn't automatically mean in the gutter.


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## Mugshot (4 Oct 2012)

Well, everything is sorted out then, well done everybody


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## Oldspice (4 Oct 2012)

Means use your common sense


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## Cyclopathic (4 Oct 2012)

Oldspice said:


> What's the maid wearing


He's wearing the butlers hand me downs.


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## Mugshot (4 Oct 2012)

Oldspice said:


> Means use your common sense


I think you're spot on


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## MrJamie (4 Oct 2012)

Could you argue that "as close as practicable" doesn't mean in the door zone? I still don't get not shoulderchecking though, but if you are forced to ride in the gutter and door zone, what about a helmet mirror. It would surely have none of the problems with aim since you'd be able to move your head to aim it while still keeping your eyes forward. 

I may have missed something, but it sounds like the issues you have would affect all cyclists and have very little to do with your disabilities, you might find more support for upgrading cycling facilities for everyone.

I think its a shame about the thousands of words as I cant remember much of the original post and dont want to re-read to refresh everytime theres an update.


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## disabled rider (4 Oct 2012)

Oldspice said:


> Just sounds like your neighbours were not bothered with you till something ticked them off. Your not supposed to ride on the pavement anyhow and if your not capable of riding on the road (some people aren't) then don't ride a bike! SIMPLE!
> 
> As for coming on to this forum to moan, it's your choice but why have you not gone to the 'MFC' that will offer you better help and support than this place ever could. Is it because you have been kicked off? Like i said in a previous post, just change your name and try not to ramble so much and they will never know it's you.
> 
> ...


none of them were cycling sites.

You did read my post how they are obnoxious to other residents and tried to get me evicted over BO and tried to get the heath department involved right? 

Yea I did tick them off I refuse to give in to hostile harassment and attempted exclusion, for not conforming to what they think is appropriate and 90+% has nothing to do with the cycling. Its the flavor of the month or what ever for them to haze me about....

 "then don't ride a bike! SIMPLE!" This is exactly the "exclusion factor/ shun factor" I am talking about,. In stead of modifying a discriminatory law to make an exemption for disabled to use the side walk you tell me to stop riding. I have mentioned numerous times my ONLY transport for all things is bike, getting food, supplies, going to appointments, etc. basically you condemned me to death.(I am sure it was not what you meant to do. It shows how easy it is to exclude and how normalized it is, when the discrimination occurs the people doing it don't even realize they are doing it) I did mention that I had 6+ years accident free? with more than 20 years total.

My whole point is I am more than capable, include me, by doing a minor policy change.

The relevence to doing it here is as another poster pointed to the equality act is suppose to be more advanced than the west. Meaning your more likely to recognize that yes there is a problem and make an attempt to fix it. In doing so we or our leaders will see hey look over there that makes sense. lets do it here too.

I browsed through the Mcf I get the very strong impression they are focused on competitive biking as sport almost exclusively. COMPETITIVE being the operative word DOG eat DOG. This kind of thought process is against inclusion unless your elite. My focus and need is utility. Yea there is a off chance they might do a give a bike for PR. 
But then that is not what I really need which is inclusion I got a bike. Not sure I would want to ride winter nor rain with a $1500+ bike

----------------------------------------------------------------

Would rather have a utillity trailer like one of the ones I linked with the ball joint connected to the seat post. That way I can use a cheap bike which winter destroys and will be with in my means to replace it when needed. Then the trailer only comes out when I need it for big loads or deer hunting. I have not seen a trike designed to handle winters and a foot of snow with berms of snow at corners. most trikes I have seen are limited to 300lb which is lower than extended utility bikes with cargo rack. then I think they said top dog can only carry 350lb full grown deer me would exceed its limit. 

The trailer option is 175lb load that covers both deer firearm and other nicknacks. my bike is rated 300lb I think. Then I am not exceeding load limits.

anyway I need to sign off...

disabled rider


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## Oldspice (4 Oct 2012)

Bike Alliance of Minnesota (BikeMn)
Is a state wide organization, working with government and local bike advocacy groups to make Minnesota a more bicycle friendly place, so people ride more often.
www.BikeMN.org

Minnesota Cycle Federation (MCF)
An organization comprised of bicycle racing clubs whose purpose is the education and promotion of bicycle racing skills, safety and the promotion of races for bicycle racers.
http://www.mcf.net/

Minnesota Department of Transportation (MnDOT)
Offering bicyclist important information for trip planning; safety tips; and links to other State Agencies in Minnesota involved in Bicycling issues.
http://www.dot.state.mn.us/bike

Minnesota Non-motorized Transportation Advisory Committee (MNTAC)
A committee established to advise the Commissioner of Transportation and other state officials on issues pertaining to bicycle transportation in Minnesota.
http://www.mnsbac.org

Minnesota Department of Natural Resources (DNR)
Maintaining and protecting Minnesota’s natural resources for those interested in biking and other outdoor recreational activities.
http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/biking/index.html

Parks & Trail Council of Minnesota
The council exists to acquire, protect and enhance Minnesota’s critical lands for the public's enjoyment now and in the future.
www.parksandtrails.org

Share The Road Minnesota
Bicycle safety on Minnesota's streets and roads is a top priority. So Mn/DOT and MNTEC have joined together as partners to eliminate deaths and reduce injuries due to bicycle-motor vehicle collisions.
www.sharetheroadmn.org

Minnesota Department of Health
Physical activity is a public health priority impacting nearly every aspect of health. Lack of physical activity, combined with a poor diet, is the second leading cause of preventable death and disease in the United States and a huge economic burden on the state. Increasing dependence on cars, televisions, computers and other similar conveniences make physical activity less a part of our daily lives.
www.health.state.mn.us/physicalactivity

Explore Minnesota Tourism
There is something for everyone to explore in Minnesota. from places to stay; Things to do; Where to go; Events; Deals; Travel Ideas; and Planning tools, you will find it all at Explore Minnesota.
www.exploreminnesota.com/index.aspx

Local

Bicycling in Minneapolis
Ranked #2 in the nation for cycling, the City of the Lakes Bicycle Program helps those who live and work in Minneapolis use bikes to lower pollution while encouraging cost-effective and healthy way to travel.
http://www.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/bicycles

Bike Edina
Supports all levels of biking while connecting key destinations, including safe routes to schools while integrating with the Twin Cities’ regional bike network.
www.bikeedina.org

Bike Walk Twin Cities
Working to promote more biking and walking opportunities in the Twin City area.
www.bikewalktwincities.org

Metro Transit
Offering programs to expand the area Twin City cyclist can cover.
http://metrotransit.org/bike/index.asp

Three Rivers’ Parks
Offering more than 200 miles of paved and unpaved trails that wind through and safely connecting several of the Three Rivers' parks together.
http://threeriversparkdistrict.org

Transit for Livable Communities (TLC)
Working to reform Minnesota's transportation system through advocacy, organizing, and research to promote a balanced system that encourages transit, walking, bicycling, and thoughtful development.
www.tlcminnesota.org

You telling me, that none of these could offer you any advice?


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## Noodley (4 Oct 2012)

Cyclopathic said:


> Have you considered forming an action group.


 
In addition to this helpful bit of advice from Cyclopathic, have you considered making sense?


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## classic33 (4 Oct 2012)

St. *Cloud*
Hamburgers may not be eaten on Sundays.

http://www.dumblaws.com/laws/united-states/minnesota


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## mangaman (4 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> St. *Cloud*
> Hamburgers may not be eaten on Sundays.
> 
> http://www.dumblaws.com/laws/united-states/minnesota


 
Blimey

No wonder DR's so angry with the world!


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## classic33 (4 Oct 2012)

mangaman said:


> Blimey
> 
> No wonder DR's so angry with the world!


 Well it seems, from what he's posted, to make as much sense.
I still cannot say that I understand what he's actually trying to say.


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## classic33 (4 Oct 2012)

He has posted
13,899 Words
61,908 (No Spaces)
75,997 Characters(With Spaces)
37 Paragraphs
995 Lines
Which totals
16 Pages, A4, (Half inch margin all round, Arial 10)
and still I have no clear idea what exactly his problem is & how he feels we can sort it out.

I have to ask this, but has anyone educated him? That you are aware of.
And has anyone PM'd him with regards TMI?

People said "!" was bad, when posted, by myself.


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## classic33 (4 Oct 2012)

*The Constitution of the United States*
Article. IV.
*Section. 1.*
Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof.
*Section. 2.*
The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.


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## Canrider (4 Oct 2012)

Let's go back to #110:
[QUOTE 2074507, member: 45"]I think it would be appropriate to raise something here. I'm reluctant to, as it's a personal matter, but as the OP has himself raised the issue I'm not stepping over any gate that he hasn't already opened.

And that's about social communication. There are disorders (ASD being one) which impair the ability to understand both what's appropriate in communication and also interpretation on both sides. If this is present then it can be difficult for the communicator to both interpret what's being said to him/her (primarily as a result of a tendency to take everything literally) and also to appreciate how their communication comes across.

Whatever our knee-jerk response is to what's being said, I think it's right that this is born in mind on this thread.[/quote]


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## mr_hippo (4 Oct 2012)

OP, I have no wish to have a "My deafness is greater than yours" pi55ing contest with you but if someone were to whisper into my left ear from a few inches away then I would not hear them! Friends of mine know that they should sit on my right side and if I am driving a RHD car to either speak up or shut up! You mention hearing aids - none will aid my deafness.
You mention the 'lifesaver' check and that means you are not looking forward. Now how long does it take to do a 'lifesaver'? Do not tell me in seconds but rather in distance travelled. I am not interested in what is happening within a few yards of my fromt wheel; it is already too late to react.
How are you defining poor? I think Elton John has been quoted as being poor because "I am down to my last 50 million"! I often ride with the owner of my LBS, he had a nice Trek Madone with the latest Shimano ekectronics (I have a Trek 2.5 set up as a light, fast tourer) Am I poor because I cannot afford his bike or maybe I do not want it. However if anyone here want to buy me a Trek Madone, I normally ride a 62 cm frame but will accept a smaller one as it will be easier to sell!
You talk about your disabilities - think of them as difabilities (different abilities) Older members here may remember the TV personality Patrick Campbell from 'Call My Bluff'; compared to me he was a fluent speaker. I have not concentrated on what I cannot do but rather on what I can do and suggest you do the same..


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## summerdays (4 Oct 2012)

Canrider said:


> Not having read the entire thread, a couple pages back I noticed you saying you couldn't use a rearview mirror because you needed to hear traffic coming in order to know to look in it.
> 
> This doesn't entirely make sense to me:
> - In a car you can't generally hear traffic behind you, you should be periodically checking your mirrors as you drive along. Surely this is the same if you're riding a bike with mirrors?
> ...


I agree.
I have ridden with cyclists who are deaf, on the road and some (not all) do use mirrors but in the same way that a hearing cyclist can't look behind continually neither can the deaf cyclist look in the mirror all the time. Some cyclists find it difficult to look behind and therefore use a mirror instead.


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## Pat "5mph" (4 Oct 2012)

I've been reading this thread (with difficulty, English as a third language for me!) for curiosity, it's good to know what happens outside the uk from, so to speak, the horse's mouth, not the BBC news 

In a nutshell, it seems that the op's problems as a cyclist are the very same we face here, he thinks he's the only one in the world feeling pushed about on the road when on a bike.
I can assure him this is not so! 

Disabled Rider, we cannot help, but we can keep you company.
If you read the commuting forum, you will see what the UK riders face every time they set out for work on their bike


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## on the road (5 Oct 2012)

DR reminds me of someone I know, this guy has cerebral palsy although he's quite bright. But because of his disability it means that he can't take part in some activities with them being physical so he had the attitude that the world was against him and that no one liked him.


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## Longshot (5 Oct 2012)

on the road said:


> DR reminds me of someone I know, this guy has cerebral palsy although he's quite bright. But because of his disability it means that he can't take part in some activities with them being physical so he had the attitude that the world was against him and that no one liked him.


 
I have a wheelchair-bound friend who is completely the opposite. From before I first knew him when we were both teenagers, his attitude is that if he wants to do it he'll find a way. Aided and abetted by a group of friends who felt the same the way, he's achieved some amazing stuff in his life. His most recent achievement was at the Paralympics Opening Ceremony as the singer in the Ian Dury set.


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## Shaun (5 Oct 2012)

I've removed a few more posts this morning.

If you can't be civil or are not interested in engaging properly with the OP then please just leave the thread to run its natural course.

Thanks,
Shaun


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## Hitchington (5 Oct 2012)

At least you haven't got idiots like Atos operating in Minnesota http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-19844675


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## disabled rider (5 Oct 2012)

Mugshot said:


> At the risk of speaking for Canrider, I believe he was asking you why you couldn't just wheel your bicycle around the people in their mobility scooters, or whatever it is they are in/on.


 
Thanks for clarification.

I have tendency to loose balance, when fatigued, if I am "off center" related loss of balance with the hearing loss, those that have significant loss of hearing know what I am talking about.. example (leaning to side or trying to hold a heavy load balanced like 60-80lb in my totes on the handle bars of bike like groceries while walking besides bike)

Also tried to explain, that if I walk besides my bike with said groceries, the tires kick out hard to the side, if its not perfectly balanced, anyone near by could be potentially hurt including me. result from "pendulum effect" I have learned if I stay on the bike my own body weight, keeps enough traction on the tires to completely prevent the tires from kicking out to the side, and at the same time i stay perfectly centered vertical so I don't loose balance due to my inter ear. It was a trial and error, to find what works, with what is available.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
neighbors:

So I can clearly pin point when the change happened now, it was when smoking was banned from our building. For awhile the smokers, started smoking right at the entry way. This caused significant problems, for those who had breathing issues, including myself. It turns out, when a building is smoke free there is a 25ft clear zone around all entry ways. (When smokers were around the entryway, they were no where near the sidewalk or traffic path.) So when the management started enforcing the law, they set up a designation smoking area 50 ft from building, where they were not impeding traffic. They could not be any closer because of the air intake to the building and a gas main that comes into the building 25 ft from the door.

Well the people smoking, don't want to go to the designated area, so they started illegally loitering on the public sidewalk in large groups choking the sidewalk off. With total disregard to others using it. which includes the same people, who were having breathing problems, due to second hand. The designated area was away from those who would suffer from the second hand like those on oxygen.

I had come up with an "adaptation for my needs" to the walking my bike.(This works fine for distances of 1 block. but not really feasible for further distances..) I stay on the bike and I have my seat low enough that I can walk it, that way, so that at least one foot is on the ground at all times , no coasting, I can not move faster than I can walk and it also provides 3 point balance, 2 tires and 1 foot, "tripod" of single object. bike also has 3 points of contact to me instead of the 2 if I was walking besides the bike. two hands and butt.

Management of our building is happy with the "adaptation" because it provides the greatest safety with all involved. And even had told the residents to leave me alone about it.

The residents "mold of how things work" is that the "adaptation" is still riding, due to belief that because my butt is on the seat. with total disregard that my feet are walking me, with the balk of my weight on my feet, with NO COASTING, with the bike balanced between my legs that keeps the whole load centered and grounded.

Now that the conflict moved to the "Public" sidewalk Management has no say anymore. until I am officially on the property proper.

Following is sidewalk use related only:
See the management had adapted its policy to accommodate someone with needs. They followed the ADA title 3 because they provide enough services to be considered a public accommodation, in the public areas of our building. The state has not, despite the ADA title 2 in its "discriminatory policy". I called the Department of Justice to confirm this regarding title 2 policy. If the city doesn't do anything to adapt its policy, so as "not" to exclude I am to report to the DOJ , so they can look into it. 

You see the state, accounted for those who have difficulty "physically moving" like "no legs" etc. "classed as ambulatory impairments" But they failed to accommodate those with auditory, sight impairments, etc, who use different forms of mobility devices like bicycles, Trikes, tadpoles, segways, utility bikes, etc. Most of these are hell of lot cheaper than say "power chairs" or "4 wheel scooters". And scooters and power chairs are useless for outdoor winter, unlike bicycle or utility bike, using "4 wheel scooter" and power chairs out door in winter voids most warranties. and those paid by medical coverages forbid their use in winter outdoors, where snow and salt, destroys them. By the way. the amiability impaired. can use modified bikes, example "hand pedal" on the sidewalks, Why do they get to do it, if another person with impairments involving say balance due to the significant loss of hearing, uses a trike, but is not allowed since its not considered ambulatory?

these are permissible on sidewalks http://www.thescooterstoreonline.com/luxury-scooters.html which are in more of a 'car' class, than pedal power bicycles are. top speed of this one is 9.3 miles an hour http://www.thescooterstoreonline.com/sportrider.html This one 8 miles an hour http://www.thescooterstoreonline.com/vita.html Most would consider this speed too much for sidewalks. so at the end of the day what is the difference between the 2 wheels vs 4, when used by those who have impairments?

I am pretty sure UK has similar issues, and is so normalized, that people don't even realize it is happening. "exclusion factor form of discrimination.

disabled rider


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## disabled rider (5 Oct 2012)

Hitchington said:


> At least you haven't got idiots like Atos operating in Minnesota http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-19844675


Actually we do, its called the SSA "social security administration", I know this personally, my case in particular, and many like myself. SSA uses many loopholes, Like the "rehabilitation act 1974" where if the number of jobs available are high, your not disabled, which overrides medical evidence and detailed letters by doctors. loop holes like that override and disregard the fact that your not able to perform for various reasons. Use previous year income despite the fact you may have become disabled overnight, also excludes you. To justify exclusion from being declared, under disability insurance. Took me 5 years and humiliation, homelessness, etc. The unwritten rule of SSA, is keep as many people off as possible, exploiting any legal loophole possible, without violating the "written letter of the law"


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## disabled rider (5 Oct 2012)

Mugshot said:


> This.
> Also what does practicable mean in this situation? I'm guessing it doesn't automatically mean in the gutter.


 
actually it does as long as your pedal doesn't catch


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## Hitchington (5 Oct 2012)

I'm not sure if this has been suggested already, but is there not another route you can cycle thus avoiding these problem neighbours?


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## disabled rider (5 Oct 2012)

Oldspice said:


> You never read the whole of part 4! These laws are not overly dramatic!
> 
> Subd. 3. * Clinging to vehicle.* Persons riding upon
> any
> ...


 

actually I did, read it and asked at city hall. you ride as close to the side and only move away from side to go around pot holes, drains, only time you don't ride by curb is in the designated street parking areas , where you ride in the space where the door would be if it is open as far right as possible.. The stretches in between you move back to the right. (the reasoning for this is to not obstruct flow of traffic) I just did not post it all because it really would have ballooned my post even worse than it was. I was also trying to address the use of sidewalks specifically for disabled people. 

I did address those points you added. in another post as a reply to another member here on the proper way in which to ride the streets here. I was trying to show the conflict of the "have all the rights of a car when riding the street" which conflicted with the "MUST ride as far right as possible" unless going around objects or moving to turn left.

subs 4d was related to sidewalk riding specifically which is why I said pay particular attention to that and not the rest.

I did get clarified about the authorized by city to ride sidewalks in business district. the city take is that no business district and no areas posted as no biking. I am now in process of making a appeal to the city under the ADA title 2 policy accommodation.
For use of the sidewalk for any sensory based impairments.


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## disabled rider (5 Oct 2012)

Hitchington said:


> I'm not sure if this has been suggested already, but is there not another route you can cycle thus avoiding these problem neighbours?


 
Believe me I wish there was, problem is they will push the issue regardless from what direction I come from. Only thing I can think of as to why they are doing this, is my reference to their lives being miserable, so making someone else lives more miserable than themselves, makes themselves feel better. I believe that's the definition of bullies right?

If I give in at all, it "enables them""bullies" to push the issue even farther away from the building, to include all the down town business district.

I can quote what several of the residents have said in various forms, This quote is given to me in various forms, when I address some of their behavior that is harming people around them.: "I am so close to the end of my Life, I do not care, if my actions harm other people", even their own children and grand children.<--- aptly describes dealing with them...

disabled rider.


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## Oldspice (5 Oct 2012)

I wasn't talking to you DR. It was 'Mangaman' If you had looked properly, you would see that i qouted him in my post, thus refering to the comment he made.


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## disabled rider (5 Oct 2012)

Shaun said:


> So it boils down to an issue - specifically - with your neighbours. Okay, so how do you feel us members of the CycleChat community can help with this?


 
no its an example of a wider issue, discriminatory policy against disabled riders. not just here but around the world. What I am trying do, is get the wider community, to realize that actions, are being taken so casually and commonly, that its become so normalized, that they don't even realize or do realize that they are excluding people with certain types of needs. which goes against things like the ADA and the Equality act. the link about "Atos" is good example.

I am also trying to encourage people to look over the policies and try to put themselves in other people shoes who those policies impact and determine if those policy is putting those people with needs in unnecessary danger or excluding them all together.

I am trying to address the local one locally, I just think it is selfish of me, to only have the rules changed just for me and not have the rules changed for all of the people that find themselves in my shoes. Where they are having the right to take care of them selves blocked by discriminatory bike policies. When it comes to using bicycles as their main or sole transportation needs.


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## Oldspice (5 Oct 2012)

Your to blinked to listen to anyone else. You have had a lot of good comments and advise, but your to fixated on what you want to hear or see to take any of it on board.

Once again this is the UK. The things that effect you do not effect the UK.

With that said, i am out. Not much point offering any help or advise to someone who is incapable to of seeing nothing but there own agenda.


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## summerdays (5 Oct 2012)

But the rules in the UK are different, for example we are free to not cycle in the gutter as you suggest that you are restricted to.

And how well the rules are enforced will vary too. Theoretically no-one even a two year old is allowed to cycle on the pavement. In reality, no one is going to force a toddler to cycle in the road, and children can probably get away with it until they are teenagers. And beyond that you get adults cycling on the pavement (not on shared pavements), and although you get tutting from individuals including other cyclists, on the whole I would say it was tolerated.

I would say it is better to work at getting the rules changed where you are and then to become an example of what it can be than to try and change the entire world. You know one small step at a time becomes more manageable.


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## deptfordmarmoset (5 Oct 2012)

summerdays said:


> I would say it is better to work at getting the rules changed where you are and then to become an example of what it can be than to try and change the entire world. You know one small step at a time becomes more manageable.


 
I very much agree with this point. Think global, by all means, but act local.


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## disabled rider (5 Oct 2012)

Cyclopathic said:


> Have you considered forming an action group in your area that could involve other people who have similar issues. By banding together and presenting your case as a group you might get more notice taken of the points that you raise. Authorities can easily dismiss the complaints of one person but it gets much more difficult for them to do this when a lot or even some people are involved and saying the same things.


 
I have. It is very difficult to get the disability group to act, due to the disenfranchised nature of our lives. When you have society as a whole, telling you are worthless, and nothing, on a daily basis, you tend to believe it and loose the spirit to be the master of your own life. Then add in they are trying to deal with the disability and health issues, they don't have much time for other things. They want to hide in their holes and hope that people won't realize they are there and haze them for their troubles.

There are so few of us who ride bikes, currently due to the discriminatory policies. and the lack of financial resources to pay for the specialized transportation.. tadpoles for example start at $1200ish trikes $800 to those at my level that is like buying a Mercedes to you.

It is extra difficult for me to deal with people directly due to the crap I went through "C-PTSD" when I was dealing with the city hall today I was shaking like a leaf literally (when people pick this vibe I am not taken seriously). <---When I try to work through this, it can aggravate my Atypical panic, and land me in the ER from symptoms of imminent death. And that was dealing with just 1 person. the SSA decided that I was so severely impaired/excluded regarding working, and my ability to interpersonal relationships so damaged that I was declared disabled under the SSA rules. Its not lack of trying. been working on it weekly year round with a professional. Not making much head way beyond function on my own not involving other people. This is not the professionals help at fault, for lack of progress.

Then I am not a average typical disabled. I look out for others and not just myself. I have no idea how to motivate others in my community. which is part of the whole interpersonal relationships that was damaged or non-existent by past experiences.

In this forum I feel perfectly safe. that I can function here to some degree. But then based on what other people are saying my communication even here sucks  so how do I get others active, if I have such difficulties communicating in a situation in which I feel safe? how many people are actually taking me seriously other than a couple here? good indicator is who considered me a troll vs not in the poll.

I am not seeing everything getting written since moderator been removing the worse. I been reading posts and responding as I go down the list instead of reading all responses and replying in one long post. think super post that was trying to address everyone in same post. Won't do that again.

I have asked people in our building about generating support about other disability issues, Like service animal rights. Guess their response. another person who uses a service "Dog" would not support the rights of others who lost their rights who used other species such as cats, monkeys, pigs, parrots,. Their excuse they gave me was "the change did not effect me personally so I don't want to get involved." It is the hazing factor is main drive for not wanting to get involved. This is typical response by people with impairments.

disabled rider.

ps I am only 1 in a hand full of people, who ride year round here, even among those who do not have any impairments.

so you can see there isn't a lot of support by those who ride locally.


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## TheDoctor (5 Oct 2012)

Any sign of a point yet?
*loses will to live. Again*


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## disabled rider (5 Oct 2012)

Longshot said:


> Whoaaaa there Dobbin.
> 
> That's not a fact. It's not even remotely correct. It's just an excuse to make yourself feel better.


 
There is a specific term given to laws not enforced, that are on the books. example it is law, that all men here in my state must have beards.
But its not enforced by the legal system in any way.
THink this will help clear it up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unenforced_law


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## Pat "5mph" (5 Oct 2012)

TheDoctor said:


> Any sign of a point yet?
> *loses will to live. Again*


The point of the last post by DS was: everybody looks after his own, even in the disabled community.
Involving people in a cause that does not concern them directly is hard.
DS is one of the few all year round cyclists in his area.
He is starting to understand why his posts are a bit too long.


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## glasgowcyclist (5 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> actually it does as long as your pedal doesn't catch



I think you're interpreting the law incorrectly to suggest that any cyclist is expected to ride so close to the kerb that his pedal only just clears it.

The Minnesota Driver's Manual gives a more reasonable reading of what's expected:

"_• Bicyclists should travel just to the right of faster moving traffic. However, certain hazards such as rough surfaces, debris, drainage grates or a narrow traffic lane may require bicyclists to move toward the center of the lane. Bicyclists may also move out in the lane when passing another vehicle or when making a left. Bicyclists are allowed to ride two abreast. On a laned road, they must ride within a single lane."_

Nowhere have I found a reference to support your interpretation of being forced to ride in the gutter.

Aren't you seeing a problem where none exists?

GC


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## disabled rider (5 Oct 2012)

fossyant said:


> I'd echo what 4F says - is there any way you can wheel the bike past the neighbours ? What is your mobility like off the bike ? I ask this as we've a number of paralympic cyclists in the UK who are world class athletes on the bike, but once 'off' the bike it's obvious to see their disabilities (i.e. mobility).
> 
> Is this just one or two people causing the problem ? TBH Police in the UK turn a complete blind eye to pavement cycling most of the time. Sounds like your local Police understand, but some 'locals' don't see it that way.
> 
> Do you stop and chat to those blocking your way so you can make them understand your situation. I assume they 'know you' so should understand you have disabilities.


 
BINGO!

You hit it right on the head.

I have gone into detail trying to deal with these people. There is no changing their views or understanding, even when management of our complex, / police supported my method of adaptation. Management has even tried explaining this to them that provided the greatest safety for all, and told them to leave me alone.


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## Longshot (5 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> There is a specific term given to laws not enforced, that are on the books. example it is law, that all men here in my state must have beards.
> But its not enforced by the legal system in any way.
> THink this will help clear it up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unenforced_law


 
I understand your suggestion but would argue that they are two different things. The law itself has not fallen away through lack of enforcement. You have experienced law enforcement officers overlooking that law in your case. That makes it no less a law.

I'm sure you'll explain to me why you're right and I'm wrong.


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## MrJamie (5 Oct 2012)

Being forced to ride in the gutter affects all riders though not just the disabled, why limit your minority group to only the disabled who are affected by it, if surely the majority of cyclists would agree with you if *you* werent excluding them?

The issues around not wanting to ride on roads with traffic, feeling safer on the pavement/sidewalk, not being good at shoulderchecking, doorzones (espeically USA by the sounds of it) also sound like things which all cyclists struggle with when they take to the roads. 

Maybe im being dumb, but i don't see that a lot of this has anything to do with disability - Im unsure why you aren't able to cycle around like other cyclists, unless I missed that bit.


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## disabled rider (5 Oct 2012)

glasgowcyclist said:


> I think you're interpreting the law incorrectly to suggest that any cyclist is expected to ride so close to the kerb that his pedal only just clears it.
> 
> The Minnesota Driver's Manual gives a more reasonable reading of what's expected:
> 
> ...


 there are two sets of rules governing bicycles. what you mentioned and the Minnesota statute 169.222 What I was trying to show is how 169.222 was conflicting with drivers manual. If it ever goes to court or enforced by police the 169.222 and local ordinance will be looked at, not the driver manual.
*Subd. 4.Riding on roadway or shoulder.*

(a) _*Every person operating a bicycle upon a roadway shall ride as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway except under any of the following situations:*_
(1) when overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction;
(2) when preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway;
(3) when reasonably necessary to avoid conditions, including fixed or moving objects, vehicles, pedestrians, animals, surface hazards, or narrow width lanes, that make it unsafe to continue along the right-hand curb or edge.(you have to move back to the curb once past the obstical and "c" plays in to this)
(b) If a bicycle is traveling on a shoulder of a roadway, the bicycle shall travel in the same direction as adjacent vehicular traffic.
(c)_* Persons riding bicycles upon a roadway or shoulder shall not ride more than two abreast and shall not impede the normal and reasonable movement of traffic and, on a laned roadway, shall ride within a single lane..*_ If your moving under 8 miles an hour your impeding traffic as far as drivers are concerned if your in the lane at all your impeding.at those low speeds. 
(d) A person operating a bicycle upon a sidewalk, or across a roadway or shoulder on a crosswalk, shall yield the right-of-way to any pedestrian and shall give an audible signal when necessary before overtaking and passing any pedestrian. No person shall ride a bicycle upon a sidewalk within a business district unless permitted by local authorities. Local authorities may prohibit the operation of bicycles on any sidewalk or crosswalk under their jurisdiction.
(e) An individual operating a bicycle or other vehicle on a bikeway shall leave a safe distance when overtaking a bicycle or individual proceeding in the same direction on the bikeway, and shall maintain clearance until safely past the overtaken bicycle or individual.
(f) A person lawfully operating a bicycle on a sidewalk, or across a roadway or shoulder on a crosswalk, shall have all the rights and duties applicable to a pedestrian under the same circumstances.


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## disabled rider (5 Oct 2012)

MrJamie said:


> Being forced to ride in the gutter affects all riders though not just the disabled, why limit your minority group to only the disabled who are affected by it, if surely the majority of cyclists would agree with you if *you* werent excluding them?
> 
> The issues around not wanting to ride on roads with traffic, feeling safer on the pavement/sidewalk, not being good at shoulderchecking, doorzones (espeically USA by the sounds of it) also sound like things which all cyclists struggle with when they take to the roads.
> 
> Maybe im being dumb, but i don't see that a lot of this has anything to do with disability - Im unsure why you aren't able to cycle around like other cyclists, unless I missed that bit.


 
ok disability riders have a "greater risk" of getting killed by the negligent drivers 98% of the drivers are negligent around here simply by not following the proper passing method., than the able riders. is my point. I can't show you statistics, because there are so few of us riding and it may not be reported, that the person had a disability, that may have played a role in the accident, when hit by negligent drivers. When you allow us to use the sidewalks and abide by the pedestrian rules you drop that risk of death, more in par with the able rider. As long as that person abides by the pedestrian rule and never assumes they have right away, then the so called side walk statistics does not apply. If the statistics was correct about side walks, I should have been nailed many times over in a 6+ year time frame.

see being able to ride in the middle of the lane "which we can not do" would force said negligent drivers to do "Proper passing" by doing a "Full lane pass" riding in the gutter, negligent drivers don't think that they have to give the mandatory 3 ft clearance that is guaranteed to get us disabled riders killed. This is one of the reasons there are so few disabled riders out there except at races and purely recreational riding of trails that do not cross any streets. Our bike trails are pretty amazing in its ability to not have to get on the streets, when you ride the correct ones, problem is none of them even connect to the places of actual purpose. pure recreational not utility..

I am not saying there is no risk to able riders, I am saying it goes up exponentially for us. The risk needs to be reduced, by giving us permission to use the sidewalks in a manor of other disabled can.

When I linked to those scooters, I was trying to show that the speed issue isn't really justification to exclude by showing that other forms of transport that was given permission, goes at speeds that people claim bikes are going, that make them dangerous.

There had been times, when I was on the street and I am afraid to look over my shoulder, out of fear a truck, will knock my head off. Just because my head stuck out past the width of my shoulder a couple of inches.

I don't think your dumb, I think its just a case, never really thought about the impact or the level of risk vs other people.

Disabled rider and I got to go, return a library movie.


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## disabled rider (5 Oct 2012)

[QUOTE 2080240, member: 45"]Rider - you're talking to the wrong audience. We know what the issues are for disabled people.[/quote]
I Understand that What I am trying to encourage is you take action to correct them. in on that note, I think I have the right audience, who better to be our advocates of action for change, than those who enjoy cycling outside the sports version.?


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## classic33 (5 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> I Understand that What I am trying to encourage is you take action to correct them. in on that note, I think I have the right audience, who better to be our advocates of action for change, than those who enjoy cycling outside the sports version.?


 Speaking as a disabled rider, first things first.
First we get people to acknowledge the cyclist's. Then we get them to acknowledge that there may be some dis-abled cyclist's.
There are dis-abled car drivers, but many will only acknowledge them as car drivers. Not as dis-abled car drivers.

If you want to put dis-ability first, cyclist second. Then in my opinion, you are viewing the problem from the wrong angle.


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## MrJamie (5 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> ok disability riders have a "greater risk" of getting killed by the negligent drivers 98% of the drivers are negligent around here simply by not following the proper passing method.,
> <huge snip>


That's what you've not conveyed to me at least... why are you at any greater risk than I, if for example I were to ride in Minnisota? It sounds to me that if i lived near you (as an able bodied non-driver) id have nearly the exact same problems and I don't understand how id be any safer. What I'm trying to say is that if your issue is really that the cycling laws/facilities are crap then it's an issue for all of your local cyclists to take up together with more weight behind it, irrespective of any disabilities. By the sounds of your arguement, if I lived in Minnisota id be quite annoyed if the disabled riders were allowed to cycle to the local facilities and hunting areas but i couldnt.


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## MrJamie (5 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> If you want to put dis-ability first, cyclist second. Then in my opinion, you are viewing the problem from the wrong angle.


 Ahh, thats exactly what I was trying to get accross


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## mangaman (6 Oct 2012)

Oldspice said:


> I wasn't talking to you DR. It was 'Mangaman' If you had looked properly, you would see that i qouted him in my post, thus refering to the comment he made.


 
Indeedy - sorry if I misread anything


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## classic33 (6 Oct 2012)

I have to ask this, but do you actually cycle. As in do your feet propel you by them acting on the pedals alone. OR are they propelling you soley by being in contact with the ground. You have mentioned "three point contact" whilst cycling so I'm assuming from the wording used, by yourself, that at least one foot is in contact with the ground at all times. Hobby horse style.
You have also mentioned trikes, I had two of those in this avatar, suitable for load carrying. But limited to a safe top speed of around 12mph. It becomes a little twitchy above 15mph.








What about something like the above. You're going to be hard pressed to find a better machine for carrying a sizeable load. I've seen one which had been converted to hand cranking, whilst still keeping the pedals. Owner kept his feet off the ground with the pedals.


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## mr_hippo (6 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> Disabled rider and I got to go, return a library movie.


Do you have multi-personality disorder or is there more than one person sharing the nickname?
You talk about exclusion so how do you think I feel? I have raised some valid points and asked a few questions but you have ignored excluded me!


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## ufkacbln (6 Oct 2012)

To quote Dragon's Den - I'm out.

This seems more to me to be about an individual who wants to cycle on the pavements and his neighbours have asked the Police to stop him from doing so.

This has been seen as discriminatory, and I am afraid that I disagree from that point on.


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## mattobrien (6 Oct 2012)

I can't believe that this thread is still going. I have never seen so many words say so little.

There is no point to this thread any more, so I shall join the rest of the dragons and say I'm out.


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## Mr Haematocrit (7 Oct 2012)

Discrimination is the prejudical or distinguishing treatment of an individual based on the membership of a specific group as such unless able bodied cyclists are permitted to cycle on the pavement/sidewalk and only you are prohibited from doing such can you claim discrimination.
If ALL cyclists are prevented from cycling on the pavement/sidewalk by the law which is then enforced by the police then you are not being discriminated against.
The fact is that we can not choose the laws we wish to obey no matter if you are able bodied or have a disability.


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## classic33 (7 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> There is a specific term given to laws not enforced, that are on the books. example it is law, *that all men here in my state must have beards.**
> But its not enforced by the legal system in any way.
> THink this will help clear it up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unenforced_law


 *Incorrect.
That applies to the city of Brainerd,Minnesota.


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## disabled rider (7 Oct 2012)

ouch step out for a day and poof so much to read. Please forgive me, It is going to take some time to catch up. If I miss a response to someone, please forgive me, and quote the post to respond too.


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## disabled rider (7 Oct 2012)

Update I talked to the city sidewalk use/repair manager" The definition follows the interpretation that no downtown business district and also no posted areas.

So for 6+ years I been breaking the law for my safety. Police knowing this, has not bothered me. At least not till the neighbors forcing their hands.

I am taking steps such as going before the city for a policy adaptation to be ADA title 2 compliant.
If they fail to amend its policy I will be filing a complaint with the Department of justice for the violation of "title 2 violation" against the city and state.

Discrimination takes place by allowing the ambulatory impaired to use the sidewalk with their choice of form of wheeled transport, but not allowing other forms of disability like significant hearing loss , or sight impaired the same right. As far as not having the same right as the able on the street. The discrimination "is in the level of risk of getting killed" by not adapting policy to reduce the risk for impaired individual. like allowing them on the sidewalks to reduce such risk. Is the discrimination.


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## Mr Haematocrit (7 Oct 2012)

Sorry but your not being discriminated against, if you had the permitted mode of transport you would be allowed to travel on the sidewalk with it. The fact you are not permitted to use a cycle is not discrimination as other cyclists are prohibited as well... Unless you are arguing that ALL cyclists are being discriminated against by not being permitted to use the side walk.
The fact is that cars, vans and cycles are generally seperated from walkers and similar for safety reasons.
The fact that you have been breaking the law for years is neither justification or reason, the law should have been enforced earlier than apparent to ensure that the rights of law abiding citizens were considered. By overlooking your criminal behaviour the police were discriminating against the law abiding citizen imho


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## disabled rider (7 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> *Incorrect.
> That applies to the city of Brainerd,Minnesota.


 
I have heard of the law back in the early 80's in school. It was quoted as a state law, that was unenforced. There was absolutely no mention of brainerd back in the day before internet came along.

I also suspect that those kinds of laws were not, put on the internet site for the state, because the law was so old and not enforced.

same reason my old medical records is not available electronically before the electronic recording took place at our local hospital.

wasted time scanning everything and money is in limited supply to pay someone to scan trivial things over. If I were to go to a historical MN law library it would be in one of the books , I am pretty sure.

Then this is off topic

I was just trying to point out I did not hear about that law on the internet. And I live no where near Brainerd.
This is not really a topic I just wanted to clarify where I heard it and when.
I had to do a school report on it, which is why it stuck.


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## Jodee1kenobi (7 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> Discrimination takes place by allowing the ambulatory impaired to use the sidewalk with their choice of form of wheeled transport, but not allowing other forms of disability like significant hearing loss , or sight impaired the same right. As far as not having the same right as the able on the street. The discrimination "is in the level of risk of getting killed" by not adapting policy to reduce the risk for impaired individual. like allowing them on the sidewalks to reduce such risk. Is the discrimination.


 

What?!!!! That doesn't make sense. If someone has a physical disability requiring a wheelchair or mobility scooter then of course they can use the sidewalk!!! Now that would be discrimination if they were stopped from using the sidewalk. If you have a hearing impairment, forgive me but that doesn't require any wheeled transport, so no you shouldn't use the sidewalk, like any other person. 

How you view your disability baffles me. My son, wants to be like everyone else and he will never have the mental capacity to be able to cycle unassisted whether that be on the road or the path. But he never moans about it, he uses the ABILITIES he has got the best he can. 
And if that means he doesn't get to ride on the road (because he would be a danger to himself as well as others then so be it!)


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## disabled rider (7 Oct 2012)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Hi DR,
> 
> with some effort I've read through your lengthy explanation of the problems you encounter.
> 
> ...


I was referring to cars truck on street driving in general. There are so few with severe impairments driving, when looking at total drivers out there. I was not referring to mode for disabled like electric scooter..

When you read the quoted part you mentioned out of context, I can see why you would think that.


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## disabled rider (7 Oct 2012)

Jodee1kenobi said:


> What?!!!! That doesn't make sense. If someone has a physical disability requiring a wheelchair or mobility scooter then of course they can use the sidewalk!!! Now that would be discrimination if they were stopped from using the sidewalk. If you have a hearing impairment, forgive me but that doesn't require any wheeled transport, so no you shouldn't use the sidewalk, like any other person.
> 
> How you view your disability baffles me. My son, wants to be like everyone else and he will never have the mental capacity to be able to cycle unassisted whether that be on the road or the path. But he never moans about it, he uses the ABILITIES he has got the best he can.
> And if that means he doesn't get to ride on the road (because he would be a danger to himself as well as others then so be it!)


Sorry Was making two separate points
I should of separated that in two the first part was dealing with 1 type of impaired use of sidewalk vs another impaired lack of right. The second is dealing with the able body and impaired that are of a "non ambulatory" and street use.

I was comparing the ambulatory impaired person in scooter, that goes 10 miles an hour, as having right to use said side walk, but excluding the deaf or mostly blind as having that same right to use a wheeled transport on side walk as a person on the scooter.

Able body part of it was in reference to the red part deaf or mostly blind using a bicycle or trike or other wheeled transport Was at a HUGELY greater risk of getting killed by driver than a able bodied. that was the discrimination by changing the policy to allow them on the sidewalk would alleviate the level of UNFAIR risk of getting killed more in pare with able body riding the street.

My apology for the misunderstanding


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## Norm (7 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> ouch step out for a day and poof so much to read.


Who says Americans don't do irony, huh.


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## Longshot (7 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> ouch step out for a day and poof so much to read. Please forgive me, It is going to take some time to catch up. If I miss a response to someone, please forgive me, and quote the post to respond too.


 
Who are you calling a poof (nttawwt)?


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## classic33 (7 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> I was referring to cars truck on street driving in general. *There are so few with severe impairments driving,* when looking at total drivers out there. I was not referring to mode for disabled like electric scooter..


See #242 above.
You see the driver not the dis-ability. I have seen cars adapted that allowed a dis-abled driver to use it. With some it was as simple as changing to an automatic gearbox.
Others will see a cyclist & not the dis-ability. The difference, you want special treatment. Remember this, the Inequalities Act 2010, which replaced the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 works both ways. Your laws will probably work in similar ways. Designed to prevent either side claiming discrimination.

You are now starting to dicriminate against others by exclusion, your argument is getting thinner 


disabled rider said:


> I was comparing the ambulatory impaired person in scooter, that goes 10 miles an hour, as having right to use said side walk,* but excluding the deaf or mostly blind as having that same right* to use a wheeled transport on side walk as a person on the scooter.


 The very thing that you claim is happenning to yourself, and you don't like it. You can say I have quoted out of context, but it was you that chose the words used, not me. I've been on a tandem with a blind stoker, also acted as a stoker for a blind pilot, on private land, giving him instructions on which way to turn.

And if you want point out to me you are disabled bicyclist 6+, I'll turn & say to you that I am a cyclist for over 30 years who happens to be dis-abled.

Having re-read all of what you have posted here, I have this feeling that there is more than one person involved in the postings made. Maybe they have told you how to word things I don't know. But the choice of wording changes from post to post.


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## mcshroom (7 Oct 2012)

Having digested as much as I can handle of this post I think basically you are either accidentally or deliberately misinterpreting the state law. The law states that you must ride as far right as practicable, and then lists a whole selection of reasons why you may not be able to do so. You also then read a line from a separate article of the same statute as a reason for gutter hugging. I personally don't care what some person at city hall who has never ridden a bike in their life believes the law states, you are the sole judge of what is reasonably practicable.

What your considerable tomes read as is someone who is scared of traffic and unhappy that people are no longer turning a blind eye to something that may or may not be legal (I don't know whether this is in the CBD or not). The traffic may seem bad but in general 99.999999999% of drivers are not trying to cause you harm, they are mainly just like you, trying to get from one place to another.

I will put my response as simply and politely as I can.


You are riding a road vehicle, therefore should be riding on the road. Whether you like your neighbour's reaction or not this would solve the problem.
Ride about 3ft out from the curb (using your own judgement) as this is is a sensible distance when considering the avoidance of grids and other street furniture therefore as far right as practicable.
Look around more - if you feel unsafe looking round on your bike, find a parking lot or similar and practice doing so when there's no chance of hitting anything.

It's a UK orientated book, so keep that in mind, but Have a look for a book called 'Cyclecraft'. It is very good at explaining a lot of different parts of road riding and de-constructing what look like hazardous situations into manageable riding.


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## disabled rider (7 Oct 2012)

mr_hippo said:


> OP, I have no wish to have a "My deafness is greater than yours" pi55ing contest with you but if someone were to whisper into my left ear from a few inches away then I would not hear them! Friends of mine know that they should sit on my right side and if I am driving a RHD car to either speak up or shut up! You mention hearing aids - none will aid my deafness.
> You mention the 'lifesaver' check and that means you are not looking forward. Now how long does it take to do a 'lifesaver'? Do not tell me in seconds but rather in distance travelled. I am not interested in what is happening within a few yards of my fromt wheel; it is already too late to react.
> How are you defining poor? I think Elton John has been quoted as being poor because "I am down to my last 50 million"! I often ride with the owner of my LBS, he had a nice Trek Madone with the latest Shimano ekectronics (I have a Trek 2.5 set up as a light, fast tourer) Am I poor because I cannot afford his bike or maybe I do not want it. However if anyone here want to buy me a Trek Madone, I normally ride a 62 cm frame but will accept a smaller one as it will be easier to sell!
> You talk about your disabilities - think of them as difabilities (different abilities) Older members here may remember the TV personality Patrick Campbell from 'Call My Bluff'; compared to me he was a fluent speaker. I have not concentrated on what I cannot do but rather on what I can do and suggest you do the same..


 
Its the frequency of the "lifesaver check" based on "speed of traffic vs you" and the "closeness each car is from one another". Divers go much to fast for the conditions they find themselves in and much too close to one another, to give them enough response time. In the end your looking over your shoulder way more than your looking forward to ensure all the cars are giving clearance.

Poor is based on cost of living vs what is available to you. If you can't do the most basic needs then poorer you are. 

Cost of living is necessities not luxuries. Shelter , food, communication, transportation, medical care, etc.

I do not refer to poor being comparing USA cost of living with say Africa cost of living. for milk here its $6.49 but in Africa it may only be cents. $0.02

Its based on what the person finds themselves in. 

When I have to spend more money on medical stuff I have less available to me for say transportation thus cheap bicycle instead of cheap car etc. Yea I probably get more in a month in disability insurance than an African does an entire year in Africa. 

What I am considering poor is when 2 people from the same community that "Should have the relatively same cost of living"
The resources available to one is in excess of 1,000,000 vs the resources of 10,000 for the other. The burden of struggle is much harder for the person of 10,000 vs that of the 1,000,000 Thus one with 10,000 can only afford a bicycle which is restricted where it can go vs a person getting 1,000,000 who can easily afford a car with no struggles and have no restriction of movements because they own said car.

Its the disparity within the same community. that says 1 set of rules is for the well off while another sat of rules is hampering the ability of the person who is less well off as their rich counter part. The reason the poor is less well off is not the lack of car but policies that do the restricting. Like "no bicycles on highway 52" this restricts poor, not rich. Poor is made up of mostly people disproportionately with some kind of impairment,not necessarily an impairment of their persons..
-------------------------------------------------
off topic of thread.
I am riding a $500 bicycle I don't want a more expensive one due to Minnesota winters Have a hard enough times getting tires to last without sidewalls blowing out or going flat. It is the road salt and other chemicals in the deicer used on roads. washing it off when get home doesn't seam to help other than, strip even more oils from the rubber. or degrading of the cords in the sidewall where there is no rubber.


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## disabled rider (7 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> See #242 above.
> You see the driver not the dis-ability. I have seen cars adapted that allowed a dis-abled driver to use it. With some it was as simple as changing to an automatic gearbox.
> Others will see a cyclist & not the dis-ability. The difference, you want special treatment. Remember this, the Inequalities Act 2010, which replaced the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 works both ways. Your laws will probably work in similar ways. Designed to prevent either side claiming discrimination.
> 
> ...


 

OK HOLD IT RIGHT THERE. your not understanding what I am trying to say! I am not discriminating I wasn't even talking about "disabled drivers" I was talking and referring about "negligent drivers." Only reason I even got in to the whole disabled driver was someone else ALSO misunderstood, what I was saying and I was trying to clarify to them regarding what I meant by "taking motorized transportation away"..  i was talking about "negligent drivers" and how you can not correct their driving behavior, unless you took there cars away from them. Problem is at least here, that is like 98% of all the drivers on the road. I NEVER said take cars from the disabled. Unless they fall under the negligent driver . SOMEONE ELSE said I was claiming that I was insisting taking cars way from disabled drivers NOT ME.

I AM THE ONLY POSTER TO MY PROFILE I LIVE ALONE. I DO NOT HAVE FRIENDS OR ACQUAINTANCES TO WHOM I ASSOCIATE WITH FREQUENTLY. NO ONE ELSE HAS ACCESS TO MY COMPUTER HERE OR REMOTELY
edited to include the following in regards to nature of my learning disability and how it can seem as it might be several writers.
Your seeing my learning disability related to short term memory playing out. If I leave it for even a few hours, It changes due to short term memory. Core info is the same the style changes. I have to reread a lot to ensure it stays on topic and consistence of what I say. The "rereading is an adaptation" to compensate for the short term memory. Content is the same the way its said changes. Its an adaptation not several people, split personality or anything else I have an extremely detailed history of testing that confirmed it to be the nature of my learning disability.

Again the content is the same, its how it is presented that changes. It is not intentional, It changes especially the longer I go between writings.


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## disabled rider (7 Oct 2012)

Noodley said:


> In addition to this helpful bit of advice from Cyclopathic, have you considered making sense?


who are you talking too regard to making sense?


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## black'n'yellow (7 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> i was talking about "negligent drivers" and how you can not correct their driving behavior, unless you took there cars away from them.


 
Negligence is defined as 'failing to take proper care' - and as such there is probably US legislation which outlaws negligence while driving. There are certainly several laws which cover it in the UK.

Other than that, I just don't get what your issue is.


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## mr_hippo (7 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> Like "no bicycles on highway 52" this restricts poor, not rich. .


So if you are rich, you can cycle on Hwy 52? How rich do you have to be?


disabled rider said:


> I AM THE ONLY POSTER TO MY PROFILE I LIVE ALONE. I DO NOT HAVE FRIENDS OR ACQUAINTANCES TO WHOM I ASSOCIATE WITH FREQUENTLY. NO ONE ELSE HAS ACCESS TO MY COMPUTER HERE OR REMOTELY


Are you a stranger to the truth? Please explain the following:-


disabled rider said:


> Disabled rider and I got to go, return a library movie.


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## classic33 (7 Oct 2012)

I feel I understand what you feel you are saying. That being because you can no longer ride a bike on the pavement you are being discriminated against. This on the basis that you were allowed to do it before, why can't you do it now. It is discrmination, being because you are being told you have to obey the law. Laws were made for people, whatever their ability.

You do not understand what I said, "_You see the driver not the dis-ability." _You mis-quoted me, please don't do that again.

And you are discriminating & the sooner you realise it the better. Right from you're opening post you have been telling others what they cannot do with regards to your posts. That is discrimination, in my book.

"*but excluding the deaf or mostly blind as having that same right", *your words, which you have said you chose to use. "Excluding" is exclusion, you are now guilty on that part. You are deciding what others can & cannot do, based on your own opinions, regardless of the law. So long as it suits youself.

Suggestion from me to you is that check what you are saying is correct, stop shouting & start learning. Learning how not to exclude others & not to mis-quote others (by choosing which parts you want to listen to).

If you feel like taking the system on, do so. I've taken on Government under the then Disability Discrimination Act 1995. When the legislation was that new, the forms had to be ordered from the printers. Its not that easy & "letting off" on somewhere like this wasn't an option then. The outcome being that they were in the wrong, but the time taken to get it processed & the loss, literally, on the day of the hearing of the person responsible for the decision meant it couldn't be taken further.


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## disabled rider (7 Oct 2012)

Pat "5mph" said:


> I've been reading this thread (with difficulty, English as a third language for me!) for curiosity, it's good to know what happens outside the uk from, so to speak, the horse's mouth, not the BBC news
> 
> In a nutshell, it seems that the op's problems as a cyclist are the very same we face here, he thinks he's the only one in the world feeling pushed about on the road when on a bike.
> I can assure him this is not so!
> ...


 
Actually I did not believe I was the only disabled cyclist. Which is why I am here and not simply trying to get the city to make exemption for me alone , Which by the way would be much easier to do, than say trying to change a system that discriminates whole classes of individuals with needs.

When I talk about my situation as an example of the struggles many of us face. Not just me. It is very hard to get accurate statistics for the disabled community due to how disenfranchised we are. So people do not really see a problem when there is one. Normalization of the discrimination of exclusion is one of the biggest reason and the most devastating of all discrimination.

I was aware of the commute issue I am simply trying to get people to realize that by forcing a "higher level of risk of getting killed" On to a "protected" group of people is discrimination and thus not making or remove policy to reduce said risk to a level more par with the able riders. is "exclusion"

Your right that I think your struggles is the same over the pond. Whats that song..... back in the 80's around 83ish I think, with many singers from all walks of life singing a song that was meant to unite the people together I think it starts "we are the people....." Not sure if that is the title or it is a different title. That is what I think of with your post and my goals.
United in prosperity and inclusion for all.


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## disabled rider (7 Oct 2012)

mr_hippo said:


> So if you are rich, you can cycle on Hwy 52? How rich do you have to be?
> 
> Are you a stranger to the truth? Please explain the followong:-


 
I can tell you had no idea what I was talking about. The rich can afford a car thus they can go on 52. poor can't afford a car thus they can't go on 52 with their bike which is all they could afford. This infringes on the poor persons right of freedom of movement within our borders. We do not have the financial resources, to take the state to court, for its discriminatory policy.

It is not a safety issue on 52 10-12ft shoulder, outside of the city limits, to have bicyclist This is the excuse for forbidding cyclist/ poor from moving from point A to point B. especially if everyone involved was educated on proper right away etc. like cyclist gives right away to all traffic on highway proper. This way there is no confusion on who has right of way which is the main reason for accidents on highways involving cyclists..

The last one was, I was signing out. I had to leave to go return a movie, I checked out from a library, that was due that night. I got there minutes before the library closed. which is 3 blocks from here. There were a lot of people posting at that time, thus did not want to be rude and disappear suddenly. Think of it as saying good bye see you later. I just don't like saying "bye" I was leaving a reason for my sudden departure instead.


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## glasgowcyclist (7 Oct 2012)

mr_hippo said:


> Are you a stranger to the truth? Please explain the followong:-



"
disabled rider said: ↑
Disabled rider and I got to go, return a library movie."

I suspect this is simply a matter of poor punctuation that is creating the wrong idea that there is more than one person.

GC


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## mr_hippo (7 Oct 2012)

Disabled rider - I do know what you are talking about but do you? Cyclists no matter their financial status are not allowed on Hwy 52 so it is nothing to do with wealth. I could say that motorists are discriminated against in the north of England - I can, and have, cycled the Leeds-Liverpool canal but motorists cannot do the same route.
Don't 'poor' people in the US drive cars?
As for your reason for the 'Disabled Rider and I' quote - words fail me!


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## classic33 (8 Oct 2012)

You're aware that there are places you cannot go, by bike, and you claim discrimination now on the grounds of money. Only the rich can afford cars it seems.
You ride around on a 500 dollar bike, yet claim you do so on the grounds of being poor. I know of many who who would like to spend an equivalent amount on a bike over here.
You carry 200 pound deer & yourself on the bike, so I'm guessing all up weight of 350 pounds. Over a quarter of a ton, on two wheels. Yet you still want to ride on the pavement.

We have motorways over here, no pedal cycles, pedestrians or horse drawn vehicles allowed. Not many with a pedal cycle would attempt it. Some will however, and as you are now doing, say they've done it for years & no-one has said anything. I've disobeyed the lawful instruction of a police officer in order to avoid going onto a motorway.

GC.
Poor punctuation alone does not explain the wording being used. I suspect english is not the first language & tried to explain it that way, but it doesn't cover everything which is why I said I feel the choice of wording made it seem as though more than one person was posting/that the words being used were from more than one person.


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## MrJamie (8 Oct 2012)

Presumably "disabled rider and i gotta go" should have read more like "[I'm] Disabled Rider and I have to go".


disabled rider said:


> I can tell you had no idea what I was talking about. The rich can afford a car thus they can go on 52. poor can't afford a car thus they can't go on 52 with their bike which is all they could afford. This infringes on the poor persons right of freedom of movement within our borders. We do not have the financial resources, to take the state to court, for its discriminatory policy.


 I think the point was just that it's not discrimination because you are not treated differently by the laws, if you have a mobility scooter you too could ride on the sidewalk and if you have a bicycle that's for the road.

You have also not explained (as far as ive seen) why you personally are more at risk on the road than a non-disabled cyclist.

The issue regarding being too poor to travel restricts many people, there are a number of us on here (myself included) who don't own a car, so have some limitations on our transport too.

I think we get that your situation is difficult and that it was probably alright when the police turned a blind eye to the pavement cycling, but in 14 pages we haven't really got to why you need special allowances over other cyclists who may be disabled, poor or other.


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## disabled rider (8 Oct 2012)

Oldspice said:


> Your to blinked to listen to anyone else. You have had a lot of good comments and advise, but your to fixated on what you want to hear or see to take any of it on board.
> 
> Once again this is the UK. The things that effect you do not effect the UK.
> 
> With that said, i am out. Not much point offering any help or advise to someone who is incapable to of seeing nothing but there own agenda.


The way we treat one another is the same Especially when dealing with people we think are ill in some fashion. Get rid of them Or as far away from them as possible. Its the hardwired instinct to shun the sick. This is the same regardless where. The Hard part is getting intellectual to override instinct. 

I am still trying to get use to posting here when quoting it takes me to the end of the thread and I loose place where I left off.

During the time of writing post I forget which page I am on so back tracking is not straight forward to me.

I refuse to allow cookies due to tracking. I have issues with people using my movements And have been targeted maliciously based on the movement. Mostly advertisers etc, but I have companies making orders out in my name and sending me a bill as if I ordered it myself, Then threaten to destroy my credit if I don't pay up.. Illegal Marketing strategy not identity theft.

Some one gave advice about different groups in MN Just because I don't post I intend to look into it doesn't mean I ignored the advice.

But others Like MCF I pointed out why I wouldn't as a means to get others to realize that I looked into that one prior or had looked into it after suggestion, but realized why it wouldn't help.. MCF is focused on SPORT racing and Marathon, Here is focused on all aspects of cycling. I don't ride Marathon Or sport cycle I ride utility purpose of cycling.

Would you follow advice if it did not fit your needs?? That is a bit of wasted time isn't it?

I don't just have the one agenda of getting policy changed for just my needs. My over all agenda was to motivate others into taking actions in their communities to include those in similar situations as myself , In to their communities. by being more aware to those individuals needs and adapting policy and rule to minimize the risk to them that does not force excessive routes that involves many miles or forcing them into situations where the danger to their lives goes up exponentially compared to the able body..

Equality act is NOT perfect. If it was, I would not be hearing about all the abuse going on, when dealing with people with impairments. especially the hostility by government and media that goaded the public into harassing the impaired people. Governments goal was to cut services to the people with impairments. By giving false information about those who were receiving services. like accusing free loader etc.


Also Like to point out when I am writing a long post I can not read other posts till I am finished. so some of those suggestions were being made when I could not physically see them. I have read them Once I have posted.

The one suggestion that actually had relevance to my specific needs was the Minnesota advisory one. But it does not help really help others in my shoes. in other communities.

Problem with most of the confusion is everyone seamed to be in TO MUCH HURRY trying to force me to hurry and as a result I was less organized than I could be.

My mistake was I caved in. rather than take it step at a time.

People really can't understand things from another person perspective, without all the details, many think is TMI. Not enough information or clearly organizations leads to BAD ADVICE, BAD SOLUTIONS because factors were not considered, when they had relevance.
Sorry for the following example to be about smoking instead of cycling. It just happens to be the one that pops to mind when trying to explain the point about "sharing all of the details" is important, when trying to get advice or setting policies.
Here is not enough information example of not enough information to make a good policy.

Should we bann smoking from the building
1 smoking is bad.
2.secondhand smoke is worse.
3 smokers smoke in their apartments.

Here is a lot of information that appears to be TMI but has relevance not everyone sees.
1. smoking is bad
2.second hand smoking is worse.
3 smokers smoke in their apartments.
4 people with respiratory problems have major health complications when exposed to second hand smoking.
5 the building is drafty.
6 The smoke from one apartment penetrates another apartment.
7 Smoking near a gas main is explosive hazard
8 smoking near the air intake to the building causes second hand smoke to penetrate apartments where sensitive people live.
9. smoking on traffic areas causes breathing problems for those walking by.
10 smoking on the balcony causes second hand smoke problems for those trying to exit the building via stairs or in their apartments.
11 smoking in the stairwell causes problems for those exerting while using the stairs.

Point of the example is based on the to little info bad policy would have been "not to ban smoking" or "limiting smoking to the outdoor common areas."
Both would be bad for every one but the smoker.

with the "more info" we can see the dangers smoking imposes on others in many areas thus a ban is put in place with designated smoking areas far enough from the building and far enough of the traffic path so as not to harm the health of non smokers.

eThis example is the reason I have a lot of info. And If I had not been so rushed I could have broken it apart and organized it better in steps. Which would have allowed you folks to give better more meaningful suggestions and followed my train of though easier.. Or have better understanding of the problem so as to know what to look for in your community, and better understanding on how it could be fixed, by being made aware that there is a problem, and how that problem harms certain people by exclusion "shunning of the sick" in case of the thread..,


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## classic33 (8 Oct 2012)

So its KISS you're after!
That being the case here goes.
Does the law state clearly that a bicycle may not/cannot be ridden on the pavement?
If yes, then it will apply to all, regardless of ability or ability to pay for alternate means of transport. Get off & push.


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## on the road (8 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> I can tell you had no idea what I was talking about. The rich can afford a car thus they can go on 52. poor can't afford a car thus they can't go on 52 with their bike which is all they could afford. This infringes on the poor persons right of freedom of movement within our borders. We do not have the financial resources, to take the state to court, for its discriminatory policy.


So you're saying the rich don't ride bikes because they can afford cars?

I would assume some of those rich people also have bikes and are subject to the same restrictions as you, like not being allowed to ride on highway 52.


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## disabled rider (8 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> You're aware that there are places you cannot go, by bike, and you claim discrimination now on the grounds of money. Only the rich can afford cars it seems.
> You ride around on a 500 dollar bike, yet claim you do so on the grounds of being poor. I know of many who who would like to spend an equivalent amount on a bike over here.
> You carry 200 pound deer & yourself on the bike, so I'm guessing all up weight of 350 pounds. Over a quarter of a ton, on two wheels. Yet you still want to ride on the pavement.
> 
> ...


 
OK I can tell you have no inkling Of anything I am talking about. Because of this DO NOT assume you know what I am thinking or try to interpret what I am saying using your own words.

By doing so you are completely changing what it is I been saying.

I can also tell your selective reading. I have explained in details as to my struggles about writing.. I KNOW I have difficulty writing. I POINTED it out I have difficulties. I also explained WHY I have difficulties.

Punctuation difficulties is not same thing as LEARNING DISABILITY. What your seeing is a symptom of the learning disability in action. Stop assuming and simply ask me "Why is your wring so hard to understand?" I have already given that answer.

based On what you wrote about your interpretation of what I wrote. You do not understand or can not comprehend what it is I said in actuality.

I am not advising opening say the Autobahn to cyclists. any cyclist is dead when dealing with drivers doing in excess of 115 not enough response time for the driver.

There are other major roads between places similar to 52. 

63 I would not advocate because there is NO shoulder, and Is hilly.

I mentioned using a utility bike or bike with trailer which also indicates you really did not understand what I was talking about or didn't actually read critical posts. bike and trailer is 4 wheels. trailer rated 175 bike rated 325 combined its about 400- 475 depending on load placement. If you balance the load perfectly over the axle of the trailer, you get 500

I only refer to 52 is that is the highway where there is space that I am familiar. but It is not the only highway in the world that is like it.

I never assumed to know your road lay out, I had advised you folks to review your own roads and policy to ensure that the policy isn't being discriminatory based on false beliefs that oh its not safe, when it has wide shoulders and doesn't have sound barriers or retaining walls etc That would in actuality make it unsafe.

Making a blanket policy about all highways is not good.

but having a policy that if certain criteria are met then yes allow bikes, also keep in mind where they go and is there another CLOSE option few miles, NOT dozens.

Did I ever say you need to make every highway open to cyclist??? NO

Another thing you made a fatal mistake in regards to poor comparison. You compared me to someone in your community.
After I got done explaining what poor was. People within the "SAME community Sharing the SAME "cost of living"
I also had showed why you can't use your understanding of it through the African example comparison.


To our cost of living here vs other people here. You are considered extremely poor. If the highest level of transport you can afford is a bicycle of $500 or less. Riding a bus or cab here is FAR MORE EXPENSIVE. over the life time of the bicycle.
Average American made bike is in excess of $1000, not the imported stuff. Imported stuff is mainly priced off the cost of living of cheap labor over seas.  That $1000+ is based on the cost of living here. 

With my bike I have spent its life time about 5 - 6 years I maybe spent total $700-800ish(including replacement tires tubes cables seat etc.) ALL OF my transport needs. appointments, entertainment, cargo transporting, shopping, recreational riding, everything that involves going from point a to point b when leaving the building. When you take all of that in to account with cost of living. It was almost nothing. No luck at all.

your comparison would be valid, if I moved to Africa and kept by disability insurance. Then I could live as a king by their standards. My money could buy a hell of a lot more there. Then yes I would be lucky Because I could probably buy a African car , and fuel for the year, for 500$


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## disabled rider (8 Oct 2012)

on the road said:


> So you're saying the rich don't ride bikes because they can afford cars?
> 
> I would assume some of those rich people also have bikes and are subject to the same restrictions as you, like not being allowed to ride on highway 52.


 
Your flipping it and has nothing to do with what I said.

rich can afford a car Poor can not Therefore rich can go on 52 poor can not. The rich owning a bike has nothing to do with it when it involves the right to "freedom of movement."

rich can travel between the cities and past Rochester poor would be stuck within the city they live, because they can not afford a car but can a bicycle or walk.

I do not know how much more I can simplify it either your goading me or have comprehension issues. I don't know which, I can not read your body language through text, to determine that..

"So you're saying the rich don't ride bikes because they can afford cars?" This has nothing to do with anything I actually said. This is either a comprehension issue of yours or a goading comment.

Disabled rider signing out dinner time I am hungry.


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## Oldspice (8 Oct 2012)

A lot of poor people have cars! What is your definition of poor?

To some people you would be classed as rich as you get free money from the govermant and
your health care is paid for as well. Is it just a case of

'Infamy, Infamy they've all got it Infamy'







You want heaven and earth on a silver plate, and you ramble on that your poor yet you have superior inteligence!
Get a job and don't blame other people and say 'society' keeps you down. That's utter tosh!

Clean yourself up, improve your attitude and take your medication and do somthing apart from sitting on your bottom
and blameing everyone but yourself.

You can't be that poor if you can afford to access the internet and have a computer, pluss waste all that money on bike parts.
Paid by the govermant and state,that is keeping you down 'I think you protest to much!'


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## mr_hippo (8 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> Average American made bike is in excess of $1000, not the imported stuff. Imported stuff is mainly priced off the cost of living of cheap labor over seas.  That $1000+ is based on the cost of living here.


Are you talking of American made bikes or American assembled? You can still get sub $500 machines made by Bike Nashbar, Trek and Schwinn


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## disabled rider (8 Oct 2012)

Oldspice said:


> A lot of poor people have cars! What is your definition of poor?
> 
> To some people you would be classed as rich as you get free money from the govermant and
> your health care is paid for as well. Is it just a case of
> ...


 
I could not find the send private message function I assume there isn't one then?

This is meant as a private message regarding "to get a job" which was off topic. I was stating fact that I am 100% unemployable. There is NOTHING I can change about myself that is going to change that FACT.. 100% of 29 Employers REFUSE to hire, When I tell them Facts about me, I can not withhold from them Under law. Like the chance that I might turn blue, on the job or carried by ambulance from the job site etc. Its criminal negligence on my part to withhold it, by our employment laws. I have done nothing criminal, They are impairment related to which they do not want to deal with(EXCLUSION). All 29 positions I was over qualified for. Almost all of them kept their for hire signs up, all of them were only hiring for 1 position or had a couple for same position.

I do not have the resources to start my own business. I do not have any official degree beyond High school. Colleges won't train in a manor consistent to the way I learn. Been there done that, I do not have the financial resources to pay highly individualized training. I can not change my learning style, its a hard wired process, its not an excuse.

When I point things out why I am unemployable its NOT blaming

I am suspecting you really do not understand exclusion. I been talking about. Those are acts by other people, To which you have no direct control over. I did not make laws rules etc to which we have to live by. Those things are blocking my ability to do the things in which you insist I do. I am not the only one saying this about my case. SSA is saying it and several professionals I see are saying it as well. If it was something I could change They would have told me, in order to help me.

I also do have professional help which you would known if you had actually read my posts all the way through. Medication Does not work on me. Because it is not an organic chemical imbalance issue.

I do not know what made you make such an obtuse comment. I could also counter that you were making an excuse for not changing your behavior towards your excluding people. Point is, I am trying to show you how obtuse the comment about get a job was. I was simply trying to get you to realize how uncalled for that comment was. Of course there is no basis for my comment about you making excuses and I did not mean it.

High intelligence does not always = employable. especially if they are not willing to brake the rules our society lives by.

Personality is also another thing that can not be changed and its not the same as attitude. personality is hardwired, attitude is a behavior by choice. My personality was altered by the torture in my past this is not blame it is fact.

I forgive you for the get a job comment if you don't take the one I made about you making excuses personally, since it is just as a counter example to show a point..

Yea I could lie to an employer. Or I could steal, which could be a job. Or if I did get a job I could bully a coworker so I could get a better position/pay. I do not want to do those things. So I been advocating on changing the rules that would allow me to work within the rules that is fair and just. can't change the rules till you expose the dirty laundry. Exposing the dirty laundry by using personal example is not blame as far as I know.


The get a job comment is a raw one for me because it rubs in a way that is out of my control. 

I would agree with you about blaming if it was things I had direct control over. Like having access to a showering facility, before going into our apartment building so I could freshen up and not have BO that people find offensive after I been biking. I go in stinking anyway and blame them for being around me when I stink and they are offended by the BO 

If I do not have a way to control it then its not my doing , Pointing that out is not blame.

Blame is more to do with accusing someone of something they did not do. like your kid dies and you blame their friend for your kids death, when their friend, had nothing at all do do with it. Like saying to the friend you should have been there, if you had, they would be alive right now.

only reason I posted this after I said I left was My browser was still open when I went to shut the system down.

Disabled rider Now I am turning my computer off.


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## Oldspice (8 Oct 2012)

DR You really do talk a lot of tosh most of the times. Regarding the status of car ownership any one can get one, it has nothing to do with rich or poor. Your trouble is, is that your to busy playing the victim.

See a social worker or a doctor/counselor that treats mental health problems, you really do need help in sorting out the hole you have secured yourself into.


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## disabled rider (8 Oct 2012)

mr_hippo said:


> Are you talking of American made bikes or American assembled? You can still get sub $500 machines made by Bike Nashbar, Trek and Schwinn


sub 500 made in china or other low cost labor, not usa the materials too expensive in the USA to make sub 500$ not to mention labor wages, company insurance etc. The above 1000 is made in the USA The imported ones breaks the cost of living model that is why its so devastating to economy stability. The sub 500 is not based on the USA cost of living scale. It is based on another economy scale china tiwan etc..


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## Oldspice (8 Oct 2012)

Your talking 'Tosh!' once again DR. You can use a computer and your mobile. Your more than able to get a job with your curent skills(being smarter than all your class mates? ).
As for no employer will hire you because you have to declare your 'Medical condition' that is even more tosh and your just shirking away from the fact that you don't want to get a job as it will involve having to deal with other people in a mature way.

You enjoy this 'Big Brother World' that you have gotten yourself into. Clean yourself up and spend less time hateing and more time talking to a health advisor who can help you get back into society and get a job, either working at a place of business or working from home.

I forgot, the universe wont let you get a job, just benifit checks and section 8 housing and leave you to fest in your own misery......with cable.....computer....internet....refrigaration....furniture....soap....water.....electric... etc etc


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## Oldspice (8 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> sub 500 made in china or other low cost labor, not usa the materials too expensive in the USA to make sub 500$ not to mention labor wages, company insurance etc. The above 1000 is made in the USA The imported ones breaks the cost of living model that is why its so devastating to economy stability. The sub 500 is not based on the USA cost of living scale. It is based on another economy scale china tiwan etc..


 
Tosh. I've looked on the net. There are shed loads of bikes $500 or less.


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## disabled rider (8 Oct 2012)

Oldspice said:


> Tosh. I've looked on the net. There are shed loads of bikes $500 or less.


KNow I am not discussing this with you you missed the conversation and the comments are not even related to the topic regarding the 500 vs the above 500. Your comment is made outside the context of the discussion. 

I was explaining about poverty over several posts. which you either failed to read failed to understand or chose to ignore the other relevant posts on the issue of what poverty is.

there is 2 poverty.

poverty 1 poverty of pure numbers just looking at totals this is what your trying to use to fight disagree with me about. your choosing to use the African argument against me that because I have the things you mentioned That Africans don't That I am not poor. This poverty has its place but not in this discussion.

poverty 2 Then there is poverty which is based on the cost of living in which a person finds themselves. If their income is BELOW the cost of living THEN NECESSITIES can not be purchased. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/poverty Quote "the state or condition of having little or no money, goods, or means of support;" This is what I been describing all along. I had to sell other stuff to get the computer. If I wasn't poor I would not have needed to do that. No refrigerator NO way to store certain foods so it is a necessity. its built in to the rent so it doesn't factor in your equation. NONE of the appliances are mine I don't even have "air conditioning", which is NOT supplied by the landlord. If I wasn't poor I could afford one. I do not have cable which most others do. Internet is a necessity of communication for me because of hearing, Other forms of communication do not have the connectivity that computer has for communicating. Not to mention those services are on par to what I am paying for the internet. My computer dies I will not be able to replace it. Any non poor around here would be able to replace it.. I do not spend money on trivial things. I need boots and shoes both are falling apart big hole in shoes and sole of boots is split in two. If I could replace them I would have LONG AGO. I don't go to movies. I go to library where its free because I cant afford to waste money on movie theaters. TV dies I won't be able to replace it. 

I DON"T LIVE IN AFRICA OR CHINA OR ANY OTHER 3RD OR 2ND WORLD.
MY expenses is based on cost of living HERE. IF I can not afford food transportation, shelter etc HERE I am considered EXTREME POOR. I can not PAY for the medical care the next person in my community can I am poor compared to them IN MY COMMUNITY. Not Africa.

So When I talked about 500$ bike it is extreme poor when talking about HERE based on cost of living here NOT elsewhere around the world. as being SOLE transportation read previous posts on it not going to rewrite it in entirety.

world economy is a farce when buying those 500 and under bikes you ruin the whole economy here. because the cost of living where the cheap crap was made was based on an entirely different economy.
trading between different system breaks the whole thing. There was balance at one time not now. I am not getting into this further it is an economy issue that in itself requires a whole other forum.

Point is in the end it comes down to cost of living and whether you have the resources to pay that cost. buying cheap crap from another country doesn't change that equation your still poor, If anything buying the cheap crap in long run costs you more out of pocket. Your having to constantly replace the cheap crap and the frequency of replacing adds up over 10-20 years. So having it now does not equate to not being poor as you perceive it. buying cheap now increases your cost of living in long run thus means in actuality you are poorer in the end.

Most I talk too do not understand this concept If you understand cost vs life expectancy of products in reality not what companies tell you it will last, You can predict how much it cost you in the long run vs buying higher quality initially. quick example let you do the math. cost of living buy a coffee maker for 45$ it last you 3 months how much is that after 20 years if you keep replacing it? then you buy high quality coffeemaker with 20 year lifetime warranty that cost $200. By the way this is a real world example. poor may not have the money to buy the long warranty one and in the end is forced to spend more or if they are smart like me try to find the long life one and save up over long period of time and go without in mean time. NO I do not have one. I stopped buying them after the 3rd break. once I ran the numbers. and coffee maker wasn't a necessity.

Whats that have to do with poor? increasing your cost of living and not increasing your income makes you poorer because you can no longer cover the cost of necessities.

If you can not understand that I give up.
Night
disabled rider


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## mr_hippo (8 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> sub 500 made in china or other low cost labor, not usa the materials too expensive in the USA to make sub 500$ not to mention labor wages, company insurance etc. The above 1000 is made in the USA The imported ones breaks the cost of living model that is why its so devastating to economy stability. The sub 500 is not based on the USA cost of living scale. It is based on another economy scale china tiwan etc..


Name me just *one* American bicycle that is made in the USA; everything on the bicycle must be made in the US and not just assembled there - you cannot use any Japanese or European parts!
.


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## Boris Bajic (8 Oct 2012)

The comment I wish to make causes me some difficulty.

I long ago come to the conclusion that anyone who wishes to post on this thread is daffy. 

And if they are not daffy, will will make a good pinch hitter until a daffy guy comes along.

Now I have posted on this thread and must include myself in that number.

I am now officially daffy, in twelve different keys.

Bother!


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## Longshot (8 Oct 2012)

DR, your real problem is not your disability or the laws which you believe hold you back.

Your real problem is your outlook and attitude.


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## Mugshot (8 Oct 2012)

Boris Bajic said:


> The comment I wish to make causes me some difficulty.
> 
> I long ago come to the conclusion that anyone who wishes to post on this thread is daffy.
> 
> ...


I have a feeling you have visited this thread previously Mr Bajic, I guess that makes you double daffy and forgetful to boot 
I last posted around 5 pages ago on account of daffyness. I decided that nothing was going to drag me back in here and.....dagnabbit!


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## classic33 (8 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> OK I can tell you have no inkling Of anything I am talking about. Because of this DO NOT assume you know what I am thinking or try to interpret what I am saying using your own words.
> 
> By doing so you are completely changing what it is I been saying.
> 
> ...


 
You mate have little idea of what you are on about. I have read everyone of your posts on this thread & as I have said there appears to be more than one person behind the postings. Language barriers alone do not account for the different wording used.
First assumption made by me, on this matter, was that you were African. Second was that you were Eastern European. First assumption it would seem was correct.

You stated quite clearly you were being discriminated against on the grounds of dis-ability. When I said you see the car, then the dis-ability, you went & had a go at me for saying this. What I said was the truth, you are hiding behind the dis-ability. You are also hiding behind your curtains(off shade of yellow, with a floral pattern in light green) on the 2nd floor flat, which is SW facing. You have complained that the lift does not work. As a result you are carrying your bike & sometimes 200 pound load up three flights of stairs. You dislike this, and feel that it is discrimination on the grounds of being poor. If you were rich you could live somewhere else, better!, where the lifts work. You then would not have to walk up stairs. Presumably walking up & down stairs is only for the poor, in your book.
*Note that in the UK*
*A flat is an apartment in the US. The 1st floor is the ground floor. Regional variations.*

You have changed your tack from discrimination on the grounds of ability to discrimination on the ground of lack of money. Clearly stating that were you to move to another continent, Africa, you *"could live as a king by their standards". *Open discrimination & exclusion on your part, because then you would be rich & be able to afford a car. Leaving the poor, those who cannot afford a car, to ride a bike. The situation you now say you are in & because you are in it it is wrong. Its not wrong though if you were to be one of the "rich". Other than being able to afford a car & live in a building where the lift works, please give a clear definition of "rich" & "poor". In your opinion, of course.

I have said that I have a dis-ability. This dis-ability prevents me from driving, legally. I do not count it as discrimination. It prevents me from driving legally & because of that I cannot physically drive, other than in an open field and after being told, again, what I am to do(which pedal does what. What not to press/touch) This because I have had no inclination of learning to drive. If I could drive, I could have taken a better job long ago & then been able to afford a car. Whether I'd I've bought one is another matter. 
The same dis-ability puts me in hospital on frequent occasions. Whilst there it limits the treatment that can be given. I've been refused important operations due to complications it caused once whilst having an operation. If I was "rich" then the surgeon could have been paid to do the operation.
A common thing I've noticed over the years, during these visits to various hospitals. I that I've been reported as being drunk or on something. Not the case, its the condition showing itself. Also common is the way in which you are asked to give/put a number to the pain. 10 being the worst pain possible.
If you take 10 as the point at which your body will pass out/black out due to the level of pain, then a snapped ankle in the weeks after snapping it got a clear 9.5. I could have taken painkillers, but I'd to weigh up the pro's & con's of doing so. They'd ease the pain without a doubt, but I'd have to be in hospital whilst they were being given. Just in case. They'd interfere with prescribed medication, which would then certainly put me into hospital, although in a more serious state. A base of skull fracture rated only 2 on this scale.

As said before by me you see the dis-ability first, not the ability. Get rid of that view & what you see will be a lot less. I now wonder if you actually know what you are trying to say.


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## black'n'yellow (8 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> You mate have little idea of what you are on about. I have read everyone of your posts on this thread & as I have said there appears to be more than one person behind the postings. Language barriers alone do not account for the different wording used.
> First assumption made by me, on this matter, was that you were African. Second was that you were Eastern European. First assumption it would seem was correct.


 
A quick & simple IP check would answer that question.


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## ianrauk (8 Oct 2012)

black'n'yellow said:


> A quick & simple IP check would answer that question.


 

Yes, it's fine.


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## Mugshot (8 Oct 2012)

black'n'yellow said:


> A quick & simple IP check would answer that question.


I'm not at all tech savvy, but wouldn't that just confirm it was the same computer being used? For what it's worth I don't think DR is more than one person.


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## black'n'yellow (8 Oct 2012)

Mugshot said:


> I'm not at all tech savvy, but wouldn't that just confirm it was the same computer being used? For what it's worth I don't think DR is more than one person.


 
yes, but you can also locate the source of the IP, assuming the guy isn't hiding behind several proxies. If he is posting from minnesota, you would have to be a bit suspicious if his IP originated in India.

Either way, our blue-faced friend has checked and presumably is happy....


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## Mugshot (8 Oct 2012)

black'n'yellow said:


> yes, but you can also locate the source of the IP, assuming the guy isn't hiding behind several proxies. If he is posting from minnesota, you would have to be a bit suspicious if his IP originated in India.
> 
> Either way, our blue-faced friend has checked and presumably is happy....


Ah right I see, yes that makes sense, thank you


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## mattobrien (8 Oct 2012)

If we keep replying, he will keep posting... 

Someone much wise than me once said "you can't win an argument with an irrational person" 

With that in mind could I suggest that we stop trying?

I was hopeful that a lack of replies was seeing this thread die a natural death, but it seems that someone got the defibrillator out and shocked more life into it.


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## Jodee1kenobi (8 Oct 2012)

mattobrien said:


> If we keep replying, he will keep posting...
> 
> Someone much wise than me once said "you can't win an argument with an irrational person"
> 
> ...


 +1


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## Mr Haematocrit (8 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> I was stating fact that I am 100% unemployable. There is NOTHING I can change about myself that is going to change that FACT.. 100% of 29 Employers REFUSE to hire,


 
I have offices located around the US and in my position could quite easily get you employment. I like my employer pride themselves on giving people opportunity's and helping people reach their full potential. We have people working with us which have serious disability's and challenges. I do however agree that you are unemployable and this would not be for the reasons of disability or hygiene.
The fact is your attitude towards others is appalling and your attitude towards yourself is even more so. It is a waste of time to be angry about your disability. You have to get on with life and other people with disability's such as Stephen Hawkins haven't done badly, and there is no reason why you could not achieve either. People won't have time for you if you are always angry or complaining.

​


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## glasgowcyclist (8 Oct 2012)

mattobrien said:


> If we keep replying, he will keep posting...
> 
> Someone much wise than me once said "you can't win an argument with an irrational person"
> 
> With that in mind could I suggest that we stop trying?




You don't have to take part in the thread if it's not to your liking (and you'd already declared yourself 'out' of it a couple of days ago anyway).


GC


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## Cyclopathic (8 Oct 2012)

This is so not fair. I've never had a thread that has lasted anywhere near this long. 
Hey, did anybody see the new episode of the new series of Red Dwarf? I missed it so I'd be interested to know what it was like. Can't have been worse than the last 2 series.


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## on the road (8 Oct 2012)

When someone comes up with a valid counter argument against DR he accuses them of being off topic or something like that.


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## Arch (8 Oct 2012)

V for Vengedetta said:


> You have to get on with life and other people with disability's such as Stephen Hawkins haven't done badly, and there is no reason why you could not achieve either. People won't have time for you if you are always angry or complaining.


 
Hear hear! When I was at uni, I had two colleagues who had mobility problems (they could both walk, but needed a walking stick to do so. Both suffered a degree of pain walking, and couldn't comfortably walk the distances a fully fit person could)

One was a spiky sort of person, always complaining about things, sometimes using her mobility problems as an issue. I heard her accuse a porter of having a problem with disabled people, because he came to remind her gently that she hadn't got the correct parking permit for our site - something she could easily have got sorted out.

The other was lovely. Amiable, never complaining, generous, always ready to chat and cheer people up if they needed it. Never, in my experience, sought any concessions, beyond when we all went out to the pub together, we automatically chose somewhere within an easy walking distance for her sake. 

The difference was entirely due to their personalities, and if they'd both been fully able, they'd have been the same, but it was interesting to see how one played on her problems and the other just got on with life.

Sadly, the lovely one died a while ago, from a brain tumour. I'm afraid I felt that was very unjust....


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## Arch (8 Oct 2012)

Oh, and although I'm fortunate enough to be able bodied and well, I know a lot of people with varying degrees of disability who cycle, sometimes with major adaptations to their bikes or trikes, some without. I know a few who are much more mobile on bikes than off them. I don't know any who feel the need to take to the pavement - indeed, the barriers on many cyclepaths mean that they are happier using the road, where they know they will be unhindered. This is all in the UK, of course, and I have no experience of the US.

To the OP: If you want a reasonable discussion, you have to get to the point quicker. If you'd posted something along the lines of "I'm cyclist in the US. I have various disabilities and health problems that mean I feel safer on the sidewalk than the road, but I'm being penalised for riding there. Is this fair?" then I suspect we'd all have got to the point sooner. The point being that, sorry, if that's the rule, that's the rule. There are ways to make riding on the road safer for you, even in the US, but you seem to have closed your mind to changes in your riding technique, or physical aids like mirrors - both of which would help you, despite your opinion.

We all suffer from lousy driving, but unless we get a full, working, segregated cycle network, we have to use the system we have, and campaign to make it work. Running away to the pavement will make it worse for everyone, long term.


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## classic33 (8 Oct 2012)

black'n'yellow said:


> A quick & simple IP check would answer that question.


I assumed that he was telling the truth with regards where he was posting from. It was his use of words that got me thinking english was not his first language. Thats where the African & Eastern European came from.



Mugshot said:


> I'm not at all tech savvy, but wouldn't that just confirm it was the same computer being used? For what it's worth I don't think DR is more than one person.


Whats to stop more than one person using the same computer. Currently in a Library, writing this.


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## Mugshot (8 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> Whats to stop more than one person using the same computer. Currently in a Library, writing this.


Exactly


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## Oldspice (8 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> I assumed that he was telling the truth with regards where he was posting from. It was his use of words that got me thinking english was not his first language. Thats where the African & Eastern European came from.
> Whats to stop more than one person using the same computer. Currently in a Library, writing this.


 
Americans don't spell the same as the English people are taught.


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## disabled rider (8 Oct 2012)

since many people are too lazy to read my very first post I am quoting the entire thing here.
Quote"
Hello Ok first off I live in Minnesota USA.

As by my name, I am a disabled rider, who's sole transportation, is by bicycle, year round, even through Minnesota winters.

I need to clarify right from the beginning, so people realize, I AM NOT HERE TO TROLL. I have a serious issue that needs to be addressed. One in which my constitutionally protected right of freedom of movement is being challenged. As well as my right to live.

I recently discovered that my using common sense and biking style is criminal. To follow the law I WILL FOR A FACT BE KILLED. Nature of my disabilities do not mix with negligent drivers, which in my experience is "most" of you drivers out there. No offense, just real world observation.

I will go into detail in a thread I intend to start called Loss of "freedom of movement" for poor and disabled. Under current laws, we can not do the things we need to do, just to stay alive, without breaking laws. Laws which put us in deadly situations.

I am not here for entertainment. I am here because Of my constitutional rights and my life are being violated and endangered.

To those that think my predicament is entertainment, I ask you keep your comments to yourself. Your life is not at threat. Mine is.

To those that read my posts, will probably think I am insane or delusional or just plain wrong, or of a tinfoil hat nature. From your view, It will seam that way and may seam true. From mine, in the real world, it is what has kept me alive when following the letter of the law will kill me.(Fact) . As disabled rider 6+ years of cycling year round, zero injuries with 20 years+ total biking. Able body acquaintance of mine, in same time frame of 6 years, following letter of law, had 5 major accidents involving some hospital stays. Helmet did not do anything to help him, and in some cases made it worse, when parts of the car or other grabbed the helmet, yanking his head around..

Anyway Hi
Disabled Rider.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Irrational people do not write like above and bellow . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irrationality
Also I find this read enlightening after the accusations towards me here; http://rwjms.umdnj.edu/boggscenter/...sideringDisabilityandTheologylTomReynolds.pdf

I also pointed out the perspective I am using is of the receiving end of exclusion. If your not on the receiving end or not looking at it from that perspective, It will look irrational or crazy.

I am being very specific, in my grievances, like explaining the freedom of movement and how it excludes the poor over those more well off. There are many Intellectuals smarter than I am, that are saying the same thing. Are they irrational? only difference overall is they have a degree. I don't.
_*EDIT. OK sorry I need to Finish this example Got distracted when writing this forgot to Finish it.*_
I could get into what Is really irrational. It was someone I worked with Who said this too me. During a time I worked at a car wash. Just after the business did a complete overhaul expansion, that more than doubled its physical size. _*He*_ Told me, that he KNEW that the owner had built a tunnel, from his office to the movie rental place across the street. And that the Owner was using said tunnel to come and spy on us.

Problem is, I practically lived there and was the night security / custodian/ carpenter. I was there when they laid the foundation. No such tunnel was ever built, nor was there space to do so which would have compromised the existing foundation.
This is the part that got added:
He was being delusional. The irrationality of it or irrational thoughts on my part, believing what he said. And fearing myself that the boss was watching. Because, It would have required me to be detached from reality. Or expand on it and think OMG "everyone is out to get me" with no proof that is even happening. No I did not really believe this.

My point is your not qualified to say I am irrational I already admitted that it will or could appear to be irrational to those who looked at it from another view. Having a different, perspective does not make a person irrational. Irrational is being detached from reality. So if I was being so irrational as some posters think I am being then the following would be false. That when I said "I can't leave the city on my bicycle to go to my fishing hole because a sign says no bicycles " That If I was rich I could, because I could afford a car. Which is "not" forbidden, to drive cars on the 52. MN-DOT used a blanket excuse to exclude by claiming it was a safety issue. Within city limits yes because of the sound barrier they installed. Not outside the city though.

If your going to accuse someone of being irrational your going to have to back it up, with solid evidence with specific examples of the irrationality with a counter that shows how They are being so irrational. Like I did above regarding the tunnel example. You can destroy a persons credibility for giving a blank accusation. Oh he being so irrational , everything he saying doesn't make sense, he totally detached from reality. etc ,etc

When I started this thread I knew this was the kind of crap and flack I was going to get. If I was truly irrational how would I know how to recognize that people would be giving me flack for sharing a different perspective of an issue, Especially when that issue involves "the normalization of exclusion" that is so widely accepted by society as a whole.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is a direct quote posted from a previous link coming from the director of the DRC in the UK, quote :"This exclusion is more pernicious because it has become normalized - it is ever present but invisible," he said."

here are a few questions pointed out that are the focus of the DRC
Among the questions that the DRC wants answered are:


How to ensure that disabled people are safe in their communities
How to equip disabled people with the skills to play an active role in society
How to ensure that people are in control of their lives
How to reform the welfare state so that it supports independence rather than creating dependence
If you had bothered to actually read the content I shared like the links Then you would not have thought I was being so irrational.
These are the things I been trying to focus on, by making and changing policy to allow us with impairments to be more independent. Like making policy/ removing policy So that we can do things within our means, That will allow is to be independent, gathering food, etc. Working for an employer does not necessarily mean being independent. Especially if that employer is unwilling to pay you more than your cost of living, for a full time job. The Cost of living is higher for a person with Impairments especially if they are being forced to follow the medical disability model. example In my case I am not allowed to participate UNLESS I BUY EXPENSIVE HEARING AIDS. An employer threatened to fire me, if I did not find some way to acquire my aids. Hearing was not always necessary to perform my job and simple things like pad and pen would have sufficed or looking right at me so I can lipread. I am demanding that I be included by NOT forcing me to buy said $3000+ hearing aids is not irrational.

Yea to you, from your perspective, who has taken hearing for granted as the only means of communication used in most situation is going to see that as irrational. Your attitude is Why should I have to change how I treat and interact with other people. This is why your actions and exclusion of people who will not or can not conform to your method of communication, DOES DIRECT HARM, to the person who can not communicate using your method "voice." The person with the impairment can still communicate just fine, just not with voice without undue burden. I do not consider language unless it is based on some kind of impairment that garbles the language. not say English, Chinese, Spanish, etc.

Requesting to make accommodations in policy to allow me to ride on the sidewalks, where there is enough room, using pedestrian rules and speed is NOT irrational, when I have clearly shown how my riding on the street would get me killed especially in the winter with "black ice" in regards to my hearing. I had come up with an adaptation that will work for all involved. By continuing to say NO your "excluding" me with "intent to do harm" when I have demonstrated the significant increase in danger imposed upon me ov3er the average cyclist without impairments. This is what they would call willful negligence, if harm came to me by your refusal to amended policy.

If you really want to see irrational at work, watch people that consider themselves "elite" "better than every one else." They are above the rules vs everyone else. whole other set of rules apply to them, The rest of the species is their subjects, etc etc. Watch the video of mitt Romney 
View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvqHERTcytI
This was a convention for rich contribution Donors another words "elitist"
Here is a follow on video to the leaked video 
View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWjE5rtYOoo&feature=related
Point is I am 1 of the 47% I can tell you I pay my fair share of taxes and some. sales tax, property tax etc. Its total garbage. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/04/mitt-romney-47-percent_n_1941423.html

Quote:"Critics of Romney's "47 percent" remarks noted that many of those who don't pay federal incomes taxes pay other forms of taxes. More than 16 million elderly Americans avoid federal income taxes solely because of tax breaks that apply only to seniors, the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center reports. Millions of others don't pay federal income taxes because they don't earn enough after deductions and exemptions."
In other words WE are not tax evading like so many others especially the filthy rich.
Point is I can show irrationality when I see it. And show how it is irrational.
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I might add I been through Cognitive behavioral therapy and some others so I know what to look for and how to check and balance to ensure I am not getting irrational. I have people I bounce this stuff off who will tell me if I am being irrational or not and I ask them why they think this I just don't accept their word blindly, AS part of psychological injury recovery, NOT mental illness . There is a district difference between psychological injury and mental illness mental illness is a chemical imbalance in the brain or an ORGANIC disorder of the brain. Psychological injury is like a car accident. with the difference being that the injury is psychological in nature and not physical. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_Injury Oldspice this is directly in relation to you, Seriously get off the mental illness train in regards to me. If I had mental illness I would have included it in the section about me back in the beginning. Reason DSM doesn't recognize the injury is it would open the flood gates for litigation against abuse which leads to psychological injury, and http://www.tufts.edu/~skrimsky/PDF/DSM COI.PDF dugs don't work on the injury thus if they get it classed mental illness they can force medication use. .(out side political pressure plus many other reasons.) By blaming the individual for the harm done to them by claiming mental illness, when it is not, lets the perpetrator off the hook for the harm they inflicted on the other. And then we can not get redress for the harm done, because it is fully blamed on us. By claiming I am mentally ill, instead of acknowledging I have psychological injury you are doing this --->>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim_blaming and excusing the actions of the people who inflicted the devastating harm unto me. (past tense.)

This is a SMALL QUOTE" from http://www.bullyonline.org/stress/ptsd.htm#PTSD specific to bullying THE RED APPLIES TO ME YOU DO NOT ALWAYS HAVE ALL SYMPTOMS blue is my added comment related to the points.
People suffering Complex PTSD as a result of bullying report consistent symptoms which further help to characterise psychiatric injury and differentiate it from mental illness. These include:
Fatigue with symptoms of or similar to Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (formerly ME)
An anger of injustice stimulated to an excessive degree (sometimes but improperly attracting the words "manic" instead of motivated, "obsessive" instead of focused, and "angry" instead of "passionate", especially from those with something to fear)
An overwhelming desire for acknowledgement, understanding, recognition and validation of their experience(This is what I have been doing here, NOT the same thing as playing victim or what people thought of as victimization, described lower that is not highlighted in red.)
A simultaneous and paradoxical unwillingness to talk about the bullying (clickhere to see why) or abuse (click here to see why)
A lack of desire for revenge, but a strong motivation for justice
A tendency to oscillate between conciliation (forgiveness) and anger (revenge) with objectivity being the main casualty
Extreme fragility, where formerly the person was of a strong, stable character(this may be a factor The damage started when I turned 6 There is a distinct change in personality that never recovered, when I started school, I saw it, Mom saw it. Mom yanked me for the rest of the year, I "was" carefree happy kid who didn't worry about things, optimistic) This was torture by peers and teachers alike. corporal punishment was involved, when it was illegal at the time. I was wearing hearing aids at the time, And was being forced to be right handed, left hand had bruises from the ruler.
Numbness, both physical (toes, fingertips, and lips) and emotional (inability to feel love and joy)
 Clumsiness
 Forgetfulness
 Hyperawareness and an acute sense of time passing, seasons changing, and distances travelled
An enhanced environmental awareness, often on a planetary scale
An appreciation of the need to adopt a healthier diet, possibly reducing or eliminating meat - especially red meat
Willingness to try complementary medicine and alternative, holistic therapies, etc
*A constant feeling that one has to justify everything one says and does*
* A constant need to prove oneself, even when surrounded by good, positive people*
An unusually strong sense of vulnerability, victimisation or possible victimisation, often wrongly diagnosed as "persecution"(If I been saying that people were out to get me that is an example of this. I have not been doing that.)
Occasional violent intrusive visualisations
Feelings of worthlessness, rejection, a sense of being unwanted, unlikeable and unlovable
 A feeling of being small, insignificant, and invisible
An overwhelming sense of betrayal, and a consequent inability and unwillingness to trust anyone, even those close to you.
In contrast to the chronic fatigue, depression etc, occasional false dawns with sudden bursts of energy accompanied by a feeling of "I'm better!", only to be followed by a full resurgence of symptoms a day or two later
Excessive guilt - when the cause of PTSD is bullying, the guilt expresses itself in forms distinct from "survivor guilt"; it comes out as:"
END QUOTE
There is A WHOLE LOT more to the content above including the distinction between mental illness and Psychological injury.'
The site above helped me to put in to words What I had tried to get those around me to recognize over the years. I am not being irrational. Some one else put in to words, what been on my mind for more than 30 years.
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So I am asking STOP the unfounded insults and attempt to discredit what I am saying. I did not share my personal story so you could do so. I shared my personally story to show a perspective that has just as much validity as yours, in hopes that you would be intelligent enough to recognize that just maybe the way you have been doing things is harming others. And Just maybe you might be more considerate in the future and to help people around you, The old saying what goes around comes around.


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## Oldspice (8 Oct 2012)

So if your not capable of cycling don't cycle. You can still get a job and you can still improve your life with the assistance of the state/government resources.

So there's really nothing to complain about. People are not treated the same all over the world so stop acting as if they are and your there saviour.
You truly do need some help from a doctor or social worker, get it, it's free.


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## on the road (9 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> since many people are too lazy to read my very first post I am quoting the entire thing here.


lol


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## classic33 (9 Oct 2012)

Trouble these days is you don't know who may watching what you're doing. Get a book/film out of a library, a record is made of who it went to & when. Similar record when its returned. Pay for something & record is made, when, where, how much & what for. There is no real way round this system.

Use a computer, connected to the internet? Maybe its not safe.
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1960971/pg1

You are also hiding behind your curtains(off shade of yellow, with a floral pattern in light green) on the 2nd floor flat, which is SW facing. You have complained that the lift does not work. As a result you are carrying your bike & sometimes 200 pound load up three flights of stairs. You dislike this, and feel that it is discrimination on the grounds of being poor. If you were rich you could live somewhere else, better!, where the lifts work. You then would not have to walk up stairs. Presumably walking up & down stairs is only for the poor, in your book.
*Note that in the UK*
*A flat is an apartment in the US. The 1st floor is the ground floor. Regional variations."*
Is that "off-yellow", the result of tobacco smoke by any chance?

Oh and by the way, if you read what you claim to have reposted, you'll find very little matches your opening post. You don't know what those on here are qualified in, so please do not make unfounded statements, unless you are able to back them up, with proof. You want us to back up what we are saying, you are now being told to do the same. After all you don't want to exclude anyone, do you?


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## Pat "5mph" (9 Oct 2012)

Disabled or not, car or bicycle, there is a chance for all of us to be killed on the road or anywhere else for that matter.
Skimming you post #310 it seems you adapted a bike to your needs, "they" still won't let you ride on the pavement.
Don't know in the States, here in the UK there is a mobility benefit scheme, you use your mobility allowance to purchase a vehicle adapted for your disabilities.
I seem to understand you don't get mobility benefit because your disability does not fall under the criteria.
A way round it would be to adapt your "normal" bike with mirrors and similar to aid you on the road, plus seek out less busy roads, plus man up a wee bit on the roads - I had to, and I'm not even a man 
I think you need to accept the fact that there are certain places you cannot access on your bike, or, if you do, take the chance to get a fine (penalty).
It is not discrimination: some laws seem silly, if we choose to ignore them we must pay the penalty.

The deer hunting for food leaves me a little perplexed.
You say you're not allowed on the stretch of road that leads to the hunting place, that it is a necessity for you to hunt for cheap food - ok, it's the States 
But where/how do you skin/hang/butcher your catch?
Surely such activities are not allowed in a block of flats (apartment building)?
Never mind riding the pavement, what do your neighbours say when they see you carrying a dead deer on your shoulder up the stairs?
Not being controversial here, just curios


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## classic33 (9 Oct 2012)

As disabled rider *6*+ years of cycling 
in same time frame of *6* years, 
The damage started when I turned *6*

Now is that coincidence, or proof of a greater force at work? Taken from your "re-posting" above


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## on the road (9 Oct 2012)

I still think he's a troll, one who's lost the plot


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## classic33 (9 Oct 2012)

on the road said:


> I still think he's a troll, one who's lost the plot


 I honestly do not think he had a plot to lose.

As others have pointed out, if he doesn't like what you are saying, you are wrong. And he starts off down a new tack.
What it comes down to having read all that he's posted is:
$500 is a cheap bike. He doesn't want one from a third world country.
He is poor, hence the low amount he has spent on the bike.
He has this idea that only the rich can afford to drive. Anyone who doesn't drive is being excluded as they are poor. He doesn't mind the idea of moving to another continent, where he could be one of the rich(elite)."Live like a king" . So long as its not a third world country.
Everyone is out to get him. Be it because he is dis-abled & unable to see past the dis-abilty. Also because he's poor
Because he is deaf he is unemployable. No-one but him alone in this world is deaf to the same extent.
We don't know what he's talking about. Question is, does he?
He is not an irrational person. We just think he is.
He broke the law, got caught & doesn't like the fact he got caught.


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## MrJamie (9 Oct 2012)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Disabled or not, car or bicycle, there is a chance for all of us to be killed on the road or anywhere else for that matter.
> Skimming you post #310 it seems you adapted a bike to your needs, "they" still won't let you ride on the pavement.
> Don't know in the States, here in the UK there is a mobility benefit scheme, you use your mobility allowance to purchase a vehicle adapted for your disabilities.
> I seem to understand you don't get mobility benefit because your disability does not fall under the criteria.
> ...


My poor brain can't keep track of all the information in this thread anymore. The bit about not being fit enough to ride the longer way to the deer hunting area but being able to drag around an animal that typically weighs more than an average man and like everyone else not being allowed to ride a bicycle on the pavement but not explaining why his disability prevents normal road cycling.

I was curious about the amount of meat you'd get from a deer too, it looks like it varies a lot but after dragging say a 100kg deer corpse up the apartment stairwell (which the neighbours must love), apparently you'd be looking in the region of 45kg of edible meat or about 180 steaks  Poor Bambis


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## Bay Runner (9 Oct 2012)

Cyclopathic said:


> This is so not fair. I've never had a thread that has lasted anywhere near this long.
> Hey, did anybody see the new episode of the new series of Red Dwarf? I missed it so I'd be interested to know what it was like. Can't have been worse than the last 2 series.


 
Yeap it was "Hay Ho Pip & Dandy"

Watch out for the Moose!

Kryton was brilliant 
“They just hosed him down and gave him a new hat”


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## Oldspice (9 Oct 2012)

Do you have a gun and a license? and if so how many guns do you have, or do you use some other weapon?


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## Pat "5mph" (9 Oct 2012)

MrJamie said:


> Poor Bambis


Ohh, now I'm too!!!


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## classic33 (9 Oct 2012)

MrJamie said:


> My poor brain can't keep track of all the information in this thread anymore. The bit about not being fit enough to ride the longer way to the deer hunting area but being able to drag around an animal that typically weighs more than an average man and like everyone else not being allowed to ride a bicycle on the pavement but not explaining why his disability prevents normal road cycling.
> 
> I was curious about the amount of meat you'd get from a deer too, it looks like it varies a lot but after dragging say a 100kg deer corpse up the apartment stairwell (which the neighbours must love), apparently you'd be looking in the region of 45kg of edible meat or about 180 steaks  Poor Bambis


 
Gutted, cleaned & cut up right you might get just over half that weight in edible meats. Depends on what you're willing to eat. Heart, liver, that kinda thing.
Heads can make good trophies.


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## Canrider (9 Oct 2012)

FWIW, I know at least one couple that shoot a deer in the autumn to feed themselves through the winter.. as with any animal, if you know what you're about, there's a lot of eating on it.


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## classic33 (9 Oct 2012)

I go now, me up for work in 3 1/2 hours. Proof that dis-abled can get work, employment, when they actually try.


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## disabled rider (9 Oct 2012)

V for Vengedetta said:


> I have offices located around the US and in my position could quite easily get you employment. I like my employer pride themselves on giving people opportunity's and helping people reach their full potential. We have people working with us which have serious disability's and challenges. I do however agree that you are unemployable and this would not be for the reasons of disability or hygiene.
> The fact is your attitude towards others is appalling and your attitude towards yourself is even more so. It is a waste of time to be angry about your disability. You have to get on with life and other people with disability's such as Stephen Hawkins haven't done badly, and there is no reason why you could not achieve either. People won't have time for you if you are always angry or complaining.
> ​​


OK this is a response to _*you*_ NO ONE else. Off topic. I wanted to send it as a PM but I can't find any function that allows this I am not sure there is such a function on this site. SERIOUSLY this is not meant for anyone else leave this post alone.  

I would like to have replied to this I don't know how to make the response private to you.

What I can say is the 29 isn't even disputable I was over qualified janitorial if you must know. When you have a 100% track record of putting your hand in the fire and being hurt by it would you want to put your hand in the 40th 50th 60th time?
when your only input from others is saying your not fit to work.... I am _*SORRY*_ for being to general I should have said "my community" the 29 were the only jobs available to me based on their qualification criteria not whether I could do the job. here in my community. I did not mean to lump you with the norm. I would have to say based on what you said your an exception to the norm. 

But then it also depends what jobs you were offering vs what I can actually do. I tried to break into higher employment at my last employment. They barred me excluding me based on so called lack of experience, or lack of official education, disregarding raw talent. I had to fight tooth and nail for the last position I worked officially, I was their top assembler for complicated fire places with many steps to the assembly process, just before I was fired I was doing 1/3 of the assembly in crew of 8, it wasn't really a challenge for me, Was bored if anything.. I kept pointing out design flaws in construction or testing to pass the time. That was the one, that I mentioned before, firing for so called sub par performance mentioned before. 

I really can not begin to put that in words here If I did I know I would get banned for my own good. So I am not going to try.

I asked 2 separate lawyers about excluding personal information in interviews for employment. like the turning blue or ambulance from heart malfunction. NO GO This is the criminal negligence by not telling them. 

There are certain aspects I am proud of in my impairments example my overall IQ is 119 with someone with hearing loss and learning disability you can't look at the scoring as over all average. For many of us its the disparity between the various areas that is the learning disability/ talents. the greater the difference the greater the learning disability. http://www.rit.edu/studentaffairs/disabilityservices/info.php I was tested here, some areas I am low level genius(spacial, cognitive understanding, math, comprehension). other areas i bombed grammar, writing when added together it was middle average.

I also tested out of LD program in high-school in my district I was the first known to the teachers teaching at the time. 92'
testing was timed most categories were maxed 100% correct up to the time limit. My tester had administered a lot of the test throughout the district. I was the first they ever seen do this. Out of curiosity she kept testing with understanding that it could never be officially logged, we also agreed to only stop when I got 3 wrong in a row. I wish she had recorded it. It gave me brag rights like you wouldn't believe. Only reason it wasn't recorded WAS the TIME EXCLUSION to fit someones standard of what is "NORMAL" Other testing for people with hearing impairments and LD time limit is exempt because of the unfairness of it compared to those that did not have any marked impairments. Lets put it this way I could have wrote my own ticket to "MIT" If the scores had been recorded. Math was 6th year college spacial 7th comprehension 5th year. basically "masters" level.
writing, grammar, spelling 10th grade. 

Guess what I am trying to say I I know what I am capable of I am happy with that capability, especially with the knowledge I am smarter than many of my peers. I also understand that scares the crap out of most of my (peers).

I understand your point about steven hawkins, Then I have to ask how did he get there, connections, when the impairments started. whether he is actually the person speaking. I have watch several videos of his lectures. For the life of me I can't figure out how he manipulates the voice box. It isn't jealousy, its more AW,(shiny new curiosity) that he was able to beat the odds. Then again I am not even close to his ball park. I prefer more hands on anyway..

Only impairments I am mad about is the ones inflicted on me by my peers. It is hard enough dealing with the stigma of the others.

My greatest anger stems from exclusion though, What is within my reach, I am not allowed to participate. I do not have the means to move and too, what makes another location any better? I already live in the biggest growth area in the state. The Rehabilitation program is a fraud for someone on my level, It wasn't even designed to help people at my level. based on old stigmas that we are inferior. This is what they call help, learn to be lowest level menial task, with the least responsibility and the worst pay. when they can get you in as "slave labor" they call that success. wages here is a fraction of what I am getting for in insurance.

By the way hygiene wasn't an issue, unless it was heavy physical labor, that caused sweating, nothing I could do short of a shower to get rid of the stink. Went in clean came home dirty. It would be now, with out a car or at least shower on job site.
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So now that work isn't an option I have to focus on things that will allow me independence to care for myself , which was why I was fighting for the rights to use a bike in a safe manor , that won't result in getting me killed, and to get access to areas that are off limits currently. That weren't at one time. 

As secondary as an advocate to try to get the larger community as a whole to wake up smell the coffee or was that poo so we can improve an ongoing process of figuring out how to include those we would instinctively want to exclude.

WOW put this in google and nothing of relevance comes back  instinct to exclude sick
It is not a hard concept to understand when dealing with nature including us. Yet No one willing to even talk about it?
I know its there, I feel it Any time I get around someone I know is sick or suspect is sick, I want to go the other way. My intellect overrides and I don't run.
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Sorry again for not being clearer about the 100% of employers. 100% of employers in My Community. Would this be acceptable to you? Also For the positions I am "Qualified using their criteria"? This eliminates say secretarial, since my hearing doesn't make that feasible for me. Phones and all.

Ok here is a pun even http://www.abcinc.org/home wouldn't touch me, yes I have tried, They wouldn't even hand me an application! Then this is actual legalized slave labor, they are paid less than the federal minimum wage. They been exempt from having to pay minimum talk about discrimination, people working here have the same expenses or more than the rest of us.

Disabled rider


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## disabled rider (9 Oct 2012)

Arch said:


> Oh, and although I'm fortunate enough to be able bodied and well, I know a lot of people with varying degrees of disability who cycle, sometimes with major adaptations to their bikes or trikes, some without. I know a few who are much more mobile on bikes than off them. I don't know any who feel the need to take to the pavement - indeed, the barriers on many cyclepaths mean that they are happier using the road, where they know they will be unhindered. This is all in the UK, of course, and I have no experience of the US.
> 
> To the OP: If you want a reasonable discussion, you have to get to the point quicker. If you'd posted something along the lines of "I'm cyclist in the US. I have various disabilities and health problems that mean I feel safer on the sidewalk than the road, but I'm being penalised for riding there. Is this fair?" then I suspect we'd all have got to the point sooner. The point being that, sorry, if that's the rule, that's the rule. There are ways to make riding on the road safer for you, even in the US, but you seem to have closed your mind to changes in your riding technique, or physical aids like mirrors - both of which would help you, despite your opinion.
> 
> We all suffer from lousy driving, but unless we get a full, working, segregated cycle network, we have to use the system we have, and campaign to make it work. Running away to the pavement will make it worse for everyone, long term.


 

I would agree with you under current rules.

Going to the pave for slow moving disabled, isn't bad if they follow ped rules. We get into trouble when we try to use the street rules on the sidewalks. like moving faster than a jog in high traffic ped areas.

The most congested area here, I have been during rush hour. When I ride at speed of pedestrian traffic none of us had issues as far as I know. No one has said anything. But then many of them know me as the "guy with the black cat". Service animal advocate before they changed the definition to exclude everyone except those that could use dogs. even excluding monkeys which can perform tasks dogs can not. One of the times I stopped to ask an officer a question, not a word about me being there.

Guess what it boils down too:
Smokers didn't like the fact they lost their right to smoke in the building when they were not being considerate of other people needs. So they got kicked outside. Since they got their panties in a bundle they are lashing out to who ever even comes near them. They don't care their actions is really in a medical sense harming those around them.

Not sure where they can justify telling me to ride the street when they themselves are breaking 2 laws. loitering/blocking a thoroughfare. and violating constitutional rights of other people that move past them on said public sidewalks. We have freedom that only extends to another person face. Poisoning someone else direct air, violates that freedom of the other, by causing medical health problems and breathing problems.

which reminds me I need to go so I can get up in the morning to go to city hall and see what the status of changing policy is if they will do it or not.

.Disabled Rider


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## mr_hippo (9 Oct 2012)

DR said that `One in which my constitutionally protected right of freedom of movement is being challenged' but all of us have out freedom of movement either challenged or restricted! Car drivers cannot drive on canal paths, UK cyclists cannot cycle on motorways and there are some road bridges here that I cannot cycle over and do not get me started on about freedom of movement in buildings - those doors that are marked `Authorised Personnel Only` are restricting my freedom of movement!

Disabled Rider, do you lock your apartment door when you go out and at night? You do? How dare you, how bl--dy dare you! You are restricting the movement of your friendly neighbourhood burglar! Leave it unlocked and he may take pity on a poor person and leave stuff for you; he is just like Santa Claus!

If you are poor and/or disabled then you cannot cycle on Hwy 52 and guess what? If you are rich and able-bodied you still cannot cycle on Hwy 52!


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## classic33 (9 Oct 2012)

*Off Topic Posting*
A did you know this moment.
Constant references are made to Capricorn 1 being NASA's admission that they faked the whole moon landing scenario. How many are aware that similar claims exist for the X Files. The producers were approached by the US Government prior to making it (The X Files) as how best to get the "truth" out to the public. Admitting what they had been doing over the years, secret services & and all. Opening bars of the theme tune is actually a coded message, that is changed slighly as required.

The series still has two FBI & one CIA "Advisors", checking the script so that it is correct, without giving too much out/away. And of course a series that becomes a hit, like this one did, will have more people sat in front of the televisions, right where they want them for this http://subliminalmanipulation.blogspot.co.uk/. Mass mind control of the general public.
Those that were not sat in front of the television were made to go to the cinema when the movie came out.

Sit in front of a computer, you can't escape them. Microsoft bought into Apple, however a common feature of all microsoft operating systems is the remote viewing that allows a third party to have access to your computer. Don't believe me do a search on your system for "Remote Desktop Connection". http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Remote Desktop Connection&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-gbE-SearchBox&ie=&oe=&redir_esc=&ei=Fb9zUIqbApOwhAfckIDACg

The only Windows operating system not to have it in was to have been windows 97. Never heard of it, don't worry it was released as windows 98 which included this in the system. Microsoft were not happy at having to include this, so left it out of windows 97, which didn't go down well in certain quarters so they were not allowed to release it. I have a copy, from the factory that made it. These factories are all based outside the US.

Think thats wrong, because you have never heard of it. Their operating systems were to have been 95, 97, 99 & their "big fix" for the millineum bug, Y2K, call it what you want. But it never happenned, or did it. Everyone rushing out to get their electronics protected...

Smartphones have an inbuilt facility for storing your location, some go further & keep a record of your phonecalls, which are later transmitted to private masts, for processing at a later date.
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=smartphone location tracking&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-gbE-SearchBox&ie=&oe=&redir_esc=&ei=8sBzUNTcLdCWhQfSw4DYBQ
&
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=smartphone location tracking&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-gbE-SearchBox&ie=&oe=&redir_esc=&ei=8sBzUNTcLdCWhQfSw4DYBQ
I have one I can use to listen into conversations, via a second or third hanset, even when its not switched on.


Medical records, blood transfusions:
http://www.demonbuster.com/winningow.html & http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.375403-Blood-Donation-Edit?page=2
Not for the faint hearted.
So as you can see you can't escape, they have covered every posibility.

Further proof needed! Look at all the new posts! that appeared overnight.


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## classic33 (9 Oct 2012)

MrJamie said:


> My poor brain can't keep track of all the information in this thread anymore. *The bit about not being fit enough to ride the longer way to the deer hunting area[1]* but being able to drag around an animal that typically weighs more than an average man and like everyone else not being allowed to ride a bicycle on the pavement but not explaining why his disability prevents normal road cycling.
> 
> I was curious about the amount of meat you'd get from a deer too, it looks like it varies a lot but after dragging say a 100kg deer corpse up the apartment stairwell (*which the neighbours must love*)[2], apparently you'd be looking in the region of 45kg of edible meat or about 180 steaks  Poor Bambis


[1] That was to his "fishing hole". One hell of rod required to catch a deer.
[2] No they don't, but that discrimination


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## classic33 (9 Oct 2012)

[QUOTE 2087450, member: 45"]Just to help, can someone remind me of the first post?[/quote]
Can be found here, very little matches in his re-post though
http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/di...dom-of-movement-for-poor-and-disabled.112730/


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## Mr Haematocrit (9 Oct 2012)

Im out... not been this messed up since doing acid during my college years.


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## Jodee1kenobi (9 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> since many people are too lazy to read my very first post I am quoting the entire thing here.
> Quote"
> Hello Ok first off I live in Minnesota USA.
> 
> ...


 

I stopped reading this post after the first sentence, not because I am LAZY! But because you are calling many, who have taken the time (and it has taken plenty!!) to read and post on this thread LAZY! How rude?! It is evident from the amount of replies that most people are trying to understand and question. If you don't like what you see why post in the first place?


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## Oldspice (9 Oct 2012)

[QUOTE 2087450, member: 45"]Just to help, can someone remind me of the first post?[/quote]



Somthing like that


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## Mugshot (9 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> *Off Topic Posting*
> A did you know this moment.


I blame the Illuminati and shape shifting lizards
David Icke


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## Longshot (9 Oct 2012)

OK, OK, I give in. You've got me. I didn't want to to cave but, despite all of my evil minion training, you've broken me. You ARE being discriminated against. The world IS out to get you. It's all part of our dastardly plot. Me and the rest of the Illuminati are threatened by your very presence and have pulled all of our well hidden strings behind the fabric of society to have you killed by forcing you to ride on the road rather than the pavement.

Sure, we could have gone for the old poisoned tip umbrella or even a sniper behind a grassy knoll but we were just too worried that people would not respect us for something that undevious. Wayne (he's another Illuminati) suggested we could drown you in squirrels but the rest of us thought that was just silly.

The old people are actually an undercover team of crack evil henchmen, They film you 24/7 and beam the feed back to Illuminati HQ in Smithy's garage.

Why you may ask? You want the truth? You can't handle the truth. The truth is, there is no truth other than you're a risk to our highly complex and long term plans for world domination. Gaz is an important member of our team. We're planning to infiltrate him into the American political circles and have plotted a path whereby he becomes President in 2027, after we assassinate the incumbent, Adam Sandler. This is critical to our goals. So what? Well, Gaz walks to work. Through Minnesota! Your sidewalk riding is a clear and present danger to his very existence. We can't take the chance that you cycle into him or force him off the sidewalk into the road and under the wheels of a truck. The risk is just too great.

So, there you have it. We would have got away with it if it wasn't for thos pesky kids.

Mwahahaha!


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## hobbitonabike (9 Oct 2012)

Longshot...I think you're my hero!!!


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## oldroadman (9 Oct 2012)

As an old bikerider, I never did any rambling. The whole peloton was against me, though, and prevented me from exploiting my potential to be world champion by constantly ganging up and getting to the finish before me. This happened for years and years, and finally I was forced to retire from a job I liked because of nature attacking me and making me too old to race at that level.
So I had to do something else, look at alternatives to get by, which is called playing your hand as best you can.
One thing I found out, constant complaining gets you not very far. My glass is at least half full. I've been lucky and am grateful for that. As I am for having (apparantly, according to some odd tests) an IQ between 140-160, which I suppose is OK and helps keep me positive.
I feel really sorry for people who are disadvantaged, and believe we should do all we can to help them achieve their potential, but their own positive contribution and acceptance of what is possible and sensible must also be part of the picture.


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## 4F (9 Oct 2012)




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## Crosstrailer (9 Oct 2012)

4F said:


> View attachment 13640


 
or has he simply put his underpants on his head and stuffed a 
couple of pencils up his nose? That's what they all used to do in 
the Sudan. I remember I once had to shoot a whole platoon for 
trying that. Well, let's have a look at him.


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## glasgowcyclist (9 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> I am not here for entertainment. I am here because Of my constitutional rights and my life are being violated and endangered.


 
Regarding your desire to access the sidewalks for cycling, do you have a local disabilities group that could represent you in your discussions with the local authorities? Do you have a local area representative who could act for you with regard to your problems?


GC


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## Cyclopathic (9 Oct 2012)

Bay Runner said:


> Yeap it was "Hay Ho Pip & Dandy"
> 
> Watch out for the Moose!
> 
> ...


I saw a clip of it and it looked like Lister and Rimmer had too much make up on. I like the idea though that 20 years later they are still just floating through space, as they would be. I thought rimmers aging could be justified by saying that Holly made him age with Lister so that things would feel more natural to Lister. After all the reason for Rimmers resurection was to keep Lister sane through his endless journey (I could do with a Lister for this thread) Kryten on the other hand is easy enough to make ageless because of all the latex in his make up. Glad that they have gone back to the old format. The Kochanski years weren't doing it for me.


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## classic33 (9 Oct 2012)

Longshot said:


> OK, OK, I give in. You've got me. I didn't want to to cave but, despite all of my evil minion training, you've broken me. You ARE being discriminated against. The world IS out to get you. It's all part of our dastardly plot. Me and the rest of the Illuminati are threatened by your very presence and have pulled all of our well hidden strings behind the fabric of society to have you killed by forcing you to ride on the road rather than the pavement.
> 
> Sure, we could have gone for the old poisoned tip umbrella or *even a sniper behind a grassy knoll* [1] but we were just too worried that people would not respect us for something that undevious. Wayne (he's another Illuminati) suggested *we could drown you in squirrels*[2]but the rest of us thought that was just silly.
> 
> ...


 
*I can see only two problems with the above.*
1] He lives no-where near a grassy knoll.
2] Think of the squirrels. What have they done to you. What are they all going to eat?


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## Longshot (9 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> *I can see only two problems with the above.*
> 1] He lives no-where near a grassy knoll.


 
Sorry, my bad. I meant Parker Knoll!



> 2] Think of the squirrels. What have they done to you.


 
Actually, I suffer from ongoing trauma issues caused by a squirrel related errrm incident in my youth.


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## MrJamie (9 Oct 2012)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Regarding your desire to access the sidewalks for cycling, do you have a local disabilities group that could represent you in your discussions with the local authorities? Do you have a local area representative who could act for you with regard to your problems?
> 
> 
> GC


He doesn't appear to actually have a reason for riding on the sidewalk, either ignores the question or makes some vague reference to how road cycling is 101% fatal for the disabled. Surely if/when he does get someones attention the first thing they'll be asking is "why?" or on what grounds to make a concession for him.

As far as I can see that's as far as it goes, none of the arguements about constitutional rights, disability discrimination are relevant while he has an option - the same as any other cyclist, its just one that (perhaps understandably) he doesn't like.


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## Oldspice (9 Oct 2012)

Longshot said:


> n


 
You no longer need to hide in the dark. Pull off your helmet and show the world what your made of....your a man dagnabit!


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## disabled rider (9 Oct 2012)

Oldspice said:


> So if your not capable of cycling don't cycle. You can still get a job and you can still improve your life with the assistance of the state/government resources.
> 
> So there's really nothing to complain about. People are not treated the same all over the world so stop acting as if they are and your there saviour.
> You truly do need some help from a doctor or social worker, get it, it's free.


 
OK now the "red above " was an irrational comment. oldspice. I just got done explaining, in this community. I am not employable, professionals agree and SSA agrees. Your comment was based on unreality information. I also explained the rehabilitation services that SHOULD help me ARE NOT CAPABLE OF HELPING ME. II also pointed out the program that works with disabled only, refuses to help too. Temp agency won't either, been there done that. Most of the 29 jobs interviews, came through the local workforce center, the rest from the paper. I have done everything locally short of illegally lying or steeling or breaking other laws. I did not have the resources to move, I have less resources now than I did then.

I NEVER said wasn't capable of riding. I been doing it a long time. WHAT IS SAID is following the "current laws" I would be killed by a neglect driver NOT IF or might. People with out impairments is "might" The current laws is in essence the "medical definition" that everyone must conform to a "NORMAL PERSON MOLD" Under this, then Yes I am incapable of cycling. ((THEN this does not actually mean that I am not actually capable of riding. I have IMPAIRED RIDING. I do not have UNIMPAIRED RIDING))

THE POLICY IS WHAT IS GOING TO GET ME KILLED. Not my ability to ride.((If it was my cycling I would have already had major accidents or had been killed already)) Modifying policy, To accommodate for my impairment, to allow me on the side walk following ped rules, will remove the "I WILL BE KILLED BY NEGLIGENT DRIVERS" and change it to match other cyclist to "I MIGHT GET KILLED BY NEGLIGENT DRIVERS" Putting my risk on par with able bodied people.

"So if your not capable of cycling don't cycle." <<---- This is the kind of crap, people say, to justify the exclusion, when someone with impairments, can not conform to a "Normal person" standard, Using the medical model of disability. In reality THIS comment is what the "example" of definition of social model of disability, that _*DISABLED*_ a person with impairments, to _*prevent them from participating*_ in society. It is "SOCIETIES BELIEF" that the person is "UNABLE TO" or is "NOT CAPABLE" of CONFORMING to a "NORMAL MOLD" "THE EXCLUSION FACTOR" . The question is whether you said it, by "intention" or whether it was an "automatic" response. If it was an "automatic response", this is the "NORMALIZATION" of the "exclusion factor" in action.

Oldspice How many times have I said I see professionals already??? THERE IS NO FREE HELP FOR ME. The budget isn't there for it. Then I DO NOT NEED THE FREE HELP. I already see professionals. Seeing anyone else, while seeing professionals is double dipping and is illegal here. Either your not actually reading what I am posting or your not comprehending what I am posting and making harmful comments to me as a result. And in the process people see your short post vs my long one, and take the easy road and ignore most of what I am actually saying and rely on your harmful post to base their response.

Disabled rider

*Now I am asking you KNOCK IT OFF about the whole mental illness, needing professional help, etc. This is either the 2nd Or 3 time I asked or told you to stop doing that. your doing more harm than helping especially after how thoroughly I been explaining my situation.*  I am not even going to comment on the firearms that belongs in a "firearm forum" and is not relevant to this thread.


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## mcshroom (9 Oct 2012)

A lot of words to say you want to cycle on the pavement because you are scared of the roads


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## Arch (9 Oct 2012)

Two questions:

Do we have an award for "Longest Post on Forum?"

and

Do I get a prize for provoking a reply that is a mere 6 paras, and only one colour?


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## mcshroom (9 Oct 2012)

Nooo Don't challenge the boxes DR has decided to construct around himself! He might have to take some responsibility for his own actions rather than blaming discrimination and the state if you do that.


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## disabled rider (9 Oct 2012)

MrJamie said:


> He doesn't appear to actually have a reason for riding on the sidewalk, either ignores the question or makes some vague reference to how road cycling is 101% fatal for the disabled. Surely if/when he does get someones attention the first thing they'll be asking is "why?" or on what grounds to make a concession for him.
> 
> As far as I can see that's as far as it goes, none of the arguements about constitutional rights, disability discrimination are relevant while he has an option - the same as any other cyclist, its just one that (perhaps understandably) he doesn't like.


 
You did not read my posts then, I have thoroughly explained it. Stop making comments "like this post " , when you haven't even been following what been saying and implying that I haven't said something , WHEN I ACTUALLY HAVE.  Open your eyes.

Really how can you say I haven't said something if your not reading what I actually wrote? Or imply I am doing something that I am not. 3/4 to 4/5th of my hearing is GONE I am partially deaf Then if you had actually read my posts you would know that.

AND I HAVE NOT BEEN VAGUE The beginning I was establishing grounds for the thread I had not even started writing on the issue till the FIRST super post Super post happened due to peer pressure from posters, harassing me to get to the point . I have also explained this is DETAIL. Then your not actually reading my Posts. If you had you would not have wrote this post the way you did with such certainty.

Disabled rider


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## Arch (9 Oct 2012)

[QUOTE 2088693, member: 45"]If you can ride a bike and work a computer, you're employable.[/quote]

Yes, and no. If you can ride a bike, and work a computer, AND have basic social skills and work ability, yes....

There are after all a lot of people with many more skill than that, who seem able to make themselves unemployable just through attitude etc.


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## deptfordmarmoset (9 Oct 2012)

DR, have you learned anything useful on this thread?


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## Oldspice (9 Oct 2012)

@DR There is nothing offensive about mental illness and if a person is in need of assistance from a health care professinal then they should get the help (it's free)

You don't arf go on a lot and say very little that makes any sense/point. You are not capeable of riding a bicyle on the road and seeing as you are not a child get on the road, but you can't because you are not capeable of cycling on the road. Face facts not everyone was born to ride.

You seem to adore health care workers when they say 'Your not fit for work' but anything they say that is not in your favour 'Is the government putting you down' LOL.

So you hunt dear, commute and solicit your local counselors regarding changing the law, you use a computer and you have firearms (its a English cycling forum. There is no firearm forum on this site) and yet you say that you are incapable of working.

Comes down to

Can't work but i can hunt, demand/petition city hall for my rights the, government and the state is against me, i can carry a dead deer for miles on my bike and i can work a computer, pay bills, cook, and have a higher level of intelligence than all my class mates and i have a gun.......damn you world for not allowing me to work.


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## MrJamie (9 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> You did not read my posts then, I have thoroughly explained it. Stop making comments "like this post" , when you haven't even been following what been saying and implying that I haven't said something , WHEN I ACTUALLY HAVE. Open your eyes. <Snip>


 I've read all of this thread, please show me where you've explained why you need to ride on the sidewalk.


disabled rider said:


> I NEVER said wasn't capable of riding. I been doing it a long time. WHAT IS SAID is following the "current laws" I would be killed by a neglect driver NOT IF or might. People with out impairments is "might"


 This is the vague comment im talking about, you don't explain why you're more at risk just say that you are.



disabled rider said:


> THE POLICY IS WHAT IS GOING TO GET ME KILLED. Not my ability to ride.((If it was my cycling I would have already had major accidents or had been killed already)) Modifying policy, To accommodate for my impairment, to allow me on the side walk following ped rules, will remove the "I WILL BE KILLED BY NEGLIGENT DRIVERS" and change it to match other cyclist to "I MIGHT GET KILLED BY NEGLIGENT DRIVERS" Putting my risk on par with able bodied people.


Here you state the same "fact" again that you will get killed and an able bodied cyclist might not, but without any reasoning or evidence, that's not how a discussion works.

Q. Why with your self-professed good cycling ability are you personally more at risk than able bodied cyclists and in need of riding on the sidewalk?

I'm not trying to trip you up or pick an arguement with you, but you absolutely need to be able to answer that question if you want to convince people to agree that you should cycle on the sidewalk. You've had 18 pages of replies and an incredible amount of tolerance from this forum.


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## Oldspice (9 Oct 2012)

I tell myself. If this chap can do so much, why can't I?


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## disabled rider (9 Oct 2012)

[QUOTE 2088693, member: 45"]If you can ride a bike and work a computer, you're employable.[/quote]

that is your opinion that does not have anything to do with reality I have explained when 100% of employers refuse to hire you based on impairments you are "unemployable." "THE EXCLUSION FACTOR"

Your mixing "your capable of working" with "your employable." even then your still off because the two tasks that I am doing do not apply to the task at a job. Example those two things mean nothing , when your job is to Build a house. Those skills have nothing to do with building houses. Therefore your not employable for building houses. 

yea I can use a computer, I do not know how to do programming or use corporate spread sheets and I wouldn't know the first thing about being a secretary, computer programmer, etc. not to mention, my hearing impairs my ability to use the phone which is vital for secretary position, My LD impairs my ability to understand computer programming.

Seriously what specific jobs, can I use those two "very general" skills to do? and HOW SPECIFICALLY do they apply to that job? I will tell you, if we even have that kind of job here. We do not have delivery by bicycle here, WINTER SNOW. Position is called material transporter Involving delivery trucks, I have applied for such positions here, soon as they find out about my LD they say position is filled even though they have not filled the position. They give me bodily ques their expression changes body position changes, display discomfort, look down their nose a little more, interview speeds up, etc.

I have thoroughly explained in previous posts.

I am going to have to assume your goading / harassing me. With the simple fact you responded with 12 words. which probably took you less than 2 minutes to write. with NO SUPPORTING DATA .

Then My employment status is not even meant to be part of this thread discussion. It was part of establishing a perspective. It wasn't even open for debate.

shame on you for being so callus and narrow minded, and not actually thinking it through.

Disabled rider


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## Oldspice (9 Oct 2012)

@DR How old are you?


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## disabled rider (9 Oct 2012)

MrJamie said:


> I've read all of this thread, please show me where you've explained why you need to ride on the sidewalk.
> This is the vague comment im talking about, you don't explain why you're more at risk just say that you are.
> 
> 
> ...


 actually its been edited by moderator regarding the tolerance the worst of the intolerance been edited out. earlier
I will get back to you on your points. Actually they are in previous posts what you think i am being vague about, I was trying to not balloon my post even further by going back and re-quoting what I have already wrote previously in prior post. I am trying to avoid the super post incident.

quick answer to the biking I have gone in to detail on HEARING

I have an appointment to get to right now


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## Mugshot (9 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> Most of the 29 jobs interviews, came through the local workforce center, the rest from the paper. I have done everything locally short of illegally lying or steeling or breaking other laws. I did not have the resources to move, I have less resources now than I did then.


May I just check that I'm reading this right, you've been to/had 29 job interviews and because you have been unsuccessful you've decided you're unemployable and given up? There are people that will go for many many more interviews and send off hundreds of applications taking knock back after knock back, yet they keep on doing it until they find something because sometimes that's what you've got to do.


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## Saluki (9 Oct 2012)

I have had hundreds of job interviews and got quite a few jobs. Recently as I have a banjaxed arm, I have opened my own business as employers don't seem keen to offer me a job with my useless arm. My doctor thinks that I shouldn't actually have an office job. Good job that I don't have one then.
I have spent a lot of time and effort going for job interviews in the past, and getting knocked back again and again. But like a weeble, I get back up and keep on going.

I have about 40% hearing loss, which is not nearly as bad as you DR, but I still have impared hearing.
I broke my back and my doctors say that it is a miracle that I can walk, let alone that being the bloody minded cow that I am, that I have run marathons, triathlons and now like to do the odd sportive. My right arm is pretty useless now and I keep my hand in my pocket a lot, to keep it out of the way, but I manage to work quite effectively.
A lot of jobs I cannot do, so I have gone and found something that I can do. I am very good at it too.

I am not disabled. I am differently abled and I ride a bike. I have also been known to skin and joint the odd deer too, but I can't' carry one as lifting is not my 'thing'.

Just my fourpennath worth as I can't see why you see yourself as unemployable when you seem to have a bit more motility that I do.


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## on the road (9 Oct 2012)

DR, Couldn't you get a job as a paper boy, at least you can cycle on the sidewalk then like all paper boys do, oh and if you're deaf then get a hearing aid and then you'll be employable.


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## Andy_R (9 Oct 2012)

Saluki said:


> I have had hundreds of job interviews and got quite a few jobs. Recently as I have a banjaxed arm, I have opened my own business as employers don't seem keen to offer me a job with my useless arm. My doctor thinks that I shouldn't actually have an office job. Good job that I don't have one then.
> I have spent a lot of time and effort going for job interviews in the past, and getting knocked back again and again. But like a weeble, I get back up and keep on going.
> 
> I have about 40% hearing loss, which is not nearly as bad as you DR, but I still have impared hearing.
> ...


 
And there lies the diference methinks. As a culture, here in the UK, we tend to look at what you can do with your abilitiies, not at what you can't do. As was evidenced by recent summer events.


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## Arch (9 Oct 2012)

Oldspice said:


> @DR There is nothing offensive about mental illness and if a person is in need of assistance from a health care professinal then they should get the help (it's free)


 
To be fair, remember DR is in the States. I don't know what mental healthcare provision is like over there, but I wouldn't be surprised to find it cost money. They don't have the benefit of our NHS, in fact they seem to think the NHS is the beginning of the end of the world...

I remember reading that some opponents were saying the NHS was so bad, Stephen Hawking wouldn't have survived if he was British. It had to be pointed out that he was British, and the NHS saved his life. It's just a shame that the only artificial voice available to him had an American accent.


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## classic33 (9 Oct 2012)

Am I the only one on here that feels no matter how many times we ask the same question, he will not answer? Should all those that are still answering ask/put the same question to him.

33 Pages, half inch margin all round. Arial 10
28,413 Words.
128.642 Characters(no spaces)
157,430 Characters(with spaces)
77 Paragraphs
2102 Lines
And the best I can work out is that poor hearing is causing him to ride on the pavement. This has caused him to be caught breaking the law and he doesn't like it. This breaking of the law was previously overlooked until someone/more than one complained. From that point on it became discrimination against the dis-abled & poor. Some of the same poor presumably "walk on the same pavement(s) he wants to ride on.
The roads are not safe to cycle on. My only answer on that part is learn to ride on the roads or get off & push. I've said that to non dis-abled people on bikes on the pavements when I'm walking on one. No discrimination or exclusion there, by me at least. It(cycling on the f*ootpath*,whilst carrying an oversized, heavy load is dangerous) for those actually walking on them. It puts the P.O.B. into the same class as those they say are trying to kill him

Posted earlier, sorry for the repeat.
_"$500 is a cheap bike. He doesn't want one from a third world country._
_He is poor, hence the low amount he has spent on the bike._
_He has this idea that only the rich can afford to drive. Anyone who doesn't drive is being excluded as they are poor. _
_He doesn't mind the idea of moving to another continent, where he could be one of the rich(elite)."Live like a king". So long as its not a third world country._
_Everyone is out to get him. Be it because he is dis-abled & unable to see past the dis-abilty. Also because he's poor_
_Because he is deaf he is unemployable. No-one but him alone in this world is deaf to the same extent._
_We don't know what he's talking about. Question is, does he?_
_He is not an irrational person. We just think he is._
_He broke the law, got caught & doesn't like the fact he got caught."_

*Disabled rider, please read*
_Q. Is cycling on the pavement against the law?
A Yes. Cycling on the footway (pavement) is an offence under Section 72 of the Highways Act 1835 as amended by Section 85 (1) of the Local Government Act 1888._


_Q. Who is responsible for enforcing the laws and what are the penalties for breaking the laws?
A.The enforcement of cycling offences is an operational matter for local police forces.The police use the Fixed Penalty Notice (FPN) of £30, which provides them with a direct means of dealing with most minor offences.The Road Traffic Act 1991 makes the two most serious cycling offences parallel to those of dangerous and careless driving. The maximum fines are currently £2,500 for dangerous cycling and £1,000 for careless cycling.
_
_Q. I would like to report a cycling on the pavement incident, what should I do?
A. As with other offending the Government encourages members of the public to give evidence of specific problems and of particularly dangerous behaviour to the police, which will help ensure that the police target their resources effectively._
_The Government fully realises that illegal cycling on footways causes much concern particularly to our most vulnerable road users, such as elderly, disabled and visually impaired people. There is no excuse for cyclists who break this or other road traffic laws such as going through red lights.

Q. Are children allowed to cycle on pavements?
A Whilst there is no exemption to this law for children, the police have always used common sense and discretion in exercising their powers over children cycling on the pavement. Very young children should not be expected to cycle on the road and we would not recommend any child does so until they have received cycle training. Enforcement of cycling on pavements is usually dealt with by a fixed penalty notice, which cannot be issued to anyone under the age of 16. _

I now call upon you to name two second world countries & explain where the second world was & is?

*How do work in a Call Centre(answering phones, that sort of thing) when you have problems talking. I have, please explain how this was possible.*

Sorry its so long folks, I think I may be catching/coming down with something something.


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## Oldspice (9 Oct 2012)

There is state and social funded health care groups in Minnesota, there is a whole host of community resources available as well.


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## Oldspice (9 Oct 2012)

Arch said:


> To be fair, remember DR is in the States. I don't know what mental
> healthcare​
> provision is like over there, but I wouldn't be surprised to find it cost money. They don't have the benefit of our NHS, in fact they seem to think the NHS is the beginning of the end of the world...
> 
> I remember reading that some opponents were saying the NHS was so bad, Stephen Hawking wouldn't have survived if he was British. It had to be pointed out that he was British, and the NHS saved his life. It's just a shame that the only artificial voice available to him had an American accent.


 
There is state and social funded health care groups in Minnesota, there is a whole host of community resources available as well.

Considering America was doing compulsory sterilization till the early 70's there not that great, and since Health care was given over to the Insurance companies by Nixon, Hawkins would have died a long time ago as there is no way he would have gotten the insurance company's to pay for his treatments.


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## Oldspice (9 Oct 2012)

PS
Hawkins would have been told that he has a pre existing condition or he failed to fill out his insurance application form properly. Insurance company's in the States pay people to look for any fault with a claim in order to avoid paying, it could be something like not saying you had treatment for spots or that you had a bruised toe. If they can find a way to avoid paying the big bucks they will.


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## Andy84 (9 Oct 2012)

I do kind of think the op has got a bit of a point regarding the cycling on the pavement issue, however I'm struggling to find the words to say it properly!

Some disabled people choose to use a standard, typical wheelchair.

This might sound a bit politically incorrect, but when people see disabled people / people in wheel chairs, they feel sympathetic / sorry for them. Most people would give way to them on the pathway & in supermarkets, and offer their seat on a bus or train.

Other disabled people, like the op, choose to use a bike or an adapted bike/trike. I doubt these people get the same treatment as the ones who choose to use a standard wheelchair.


So I suppose what I'm actually asking is:

At what point (in the eyes of pedestrians / the law / train operators) does a wheelchair become a bike?


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## roadrash (9 Oct 2012)

at no point it doesnt happen ...they are two completley different things, whatever the reason for using either
but the fact remains if as he says "cycling on the pavement is illegal thit it is simply illegal whether rich, poor able bodied or otherwise dr seems to enjoy the vicious circle that HE chooses to put HIMSELF in dr is in my honest oppinion beyond all help simply because HE DOESNT ACTUALLY WANT IT hes quite happy wallowing in his own self pity ,for reasons only known to him,,he refuses to answer specific questions time and time again.i have a phrase for people like dr but unfortunately im governed by the swear filter


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## Arch (9 Oct 2012)

Andy84 said:


> I do kind of think the op has got a bit of a point regarding the cycling on the pavement issue, however I'm struggling to find the words to say it properly!
> 
> Some disabled people choose to use a standard, typical wheelchair.
> 
> ...


 
No, I think you've said it perfectly well...

There are grey areas. I know that some trike owners have challenged rail companies on access to trains, because they need a trike to be mobile, and can't use a bike. Success is variable, and access can often be down to the staff on the day. I think a forummer on here might once have extracted from a train company a letter to show to any staff in order to ensure access. 

I think (I don't know, but thinking it through...) that a wheelchair is a thing that is directly propelled by the wheels (or pushed by another person.) A bike, or trike, or handcycle, is propelled via a chain (normally, let's leave Penny Farthings out of it), which generally allows for gearing, and a greater potential speed. Perhaps it's the method of drive that makes a difference?

I suspect most people see a wheelchair as a thing that impedes the user, when compared with an able bodied person (steps, width restriction, being at a seated level etc), whereas a bike, or trike, or handcycle is a thing that allows the rider to go faster than walking, and could be used by anyone, disabled or able bodied.

(with electric mobility scooters, I think there are different regulations depending on the top speed, as to whether it can be used on the pavement or the road, but I think it's more that the slower ones can;t be used on the road, only on the pavement, whereas the faster ones can be used on either. To me, mobility scooters are a far worse hazard than a careful pavement cyclist, but hey ho, them's the rules)


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## Cyclopathic (9 Oct 2012)

There are none so deaf as those who will not hear.


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## classic33 (9 Oct 2012)

Andy84 said:


> I do kind of think the op has got a bit of a point regarding the cycling on the pavement issue, however I'm struggling to find the words to say it properly!
> 
> Some disabled people choose to use a standard, typical wheelchair.
> 
> ...


From what he's said a wheelchair isn't required. He walks up stairs with a 350lb load. Most people I know who have to use wheelchairs, would not be able to manage that.
His dis-ability is loss of hearing, so assuming that is the only dis-ability preventing him from doing anything. I'm going to say a wheelchair would not be a requirement, in this case.

He sees riding in the gutter as the poor mans option. Almost as though when he's on the bike, on the pavement, he's above those who are having to walk. They then become the poor, the excluded. He is able to go places they cannot at speeds they cannot. He is taking road traffic problems onto the pavement because he is unable to cycle on the road. For six years he was allowed to do this(law not enforced), someone complained & the police acted on that complaint.

Any adaption he has made to his bike has been to enable load carrying, not to ensure his safety whilst riding on the pavements. Something he seems quite happy to do. Not so happy at being told to ride the same bike on the road because other people, who drive then put him in danger/are out to kill him. He's willing to the same on the footpaths, but not so pleased at having to be scond best, at best, on the road.

What he hasn't mentioned, yet is
Was he born deaf?
Did it come on over a period of time?
Did it come on sudden?

Lest anyone feel I'm asking personal information, they have a direct bearing on how people would perceive it.
Me. Born with Epilepsy, so it didn't come on over a period of time or sudden. Head injury or brain damage. Stigma of being different at school was there(it will always be there). Peolpe are afraid of what they don't know about, just as the OP is about riding in the road.
I've worked almost since leaving school. The fact that I'm different(epilepsy) hasn't slowed me down/stopped me. If anything its been a case of "prove I can't do it". Disabled Rider is working the other way round. "I'm dis-abled, I'm not able to work, therefore I am not employable". 29 job applications & turned down on them all, whoopee! I'd have had that before dinner time. I stopped counting after the 1000 mark.

I too have to declare the epilepsy to any prospective employer, I don't & someone else is injured as a result, I can be held liable, put up with others pre-conceived ideas of the condition,
http://www.intercom.net/npo/eaes/Myths.htm
I've worked with heavy machinery, VDU's, computers. Everything I was told I'd never do & some I'd been told I would never be allowed to do. Driving is the only one that has yet to be done. Getting a licence requires signing off as clear by a doctor. I worked round that, two feet, two wheels, three wheel & four wheels.
I've been carried out of the workplace, into the back of an ambulance, blue & not breathing on a Friday. Back in on the following Monday. Or out of work with a Stanley knife in one hand (left & I'm right handed) that they were unable to get off me safely.


As for the last question why not look at it the other way round
At what point (in the eyes of pedestrians / the law / train operators) does a bike/trike become a wheelchair? Christiana made a "bike" (with only the one wheel) that attached to the rear or a wheel, which lifted the smaller front wheels of the ground thus converting the two into a trike
http://www.mountaintrike.co.uk/

Simplest advice that can be given is get of your backside & stop blaming others for what you cannot do. But then advice/help isn't what he's looking for. What he wants is someone to tell him his right. He is being exculded, discriminated against. As a result they will then be reinforcing his own views.

For those who mentioned Red Dwarf. Remember the one where they were in Starbug caught in a swamp. They had to get Rimmers self esteem up so they could escape.

Again ,sorry for the long post.


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## roadrash (9 Oct 2012)

i cant see there being a long queue to tell him hes right ,but it dont matter HE believes hes right


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## classic33 (9 Oct 2012)

*Disabled rider, please read.*

If you want exclusion. I am not allowed to fly on any of the airlines over here, as I represent an "unacceptable risk to the crew, plane & passengers"(in that order) whilst the plane is in the air. Thats exclusion for you. Blatant and outright!


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## Longshot (9 Oct 2012)

If I'm reading the live film feeds correctly, he'll be back online within the next five minutes as he's just arrived home again.


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## disabled rider (9 Oct 2012)

Mugshot said:


> May I just check that I'm reading this right, you've been to/had 29 job interviews and because you have been unsuccessful you've decided you're unemployable and given up? There are people that will go for many many more interviews and send off hundreds of applications taking knock back after knock back, yet they keep on doing it until they find something because sometimes that's what you've got to do.


 
It wasn't about being unsuccessful, If I am unsuccessful through competition for a position , I get up and try again. and again , again.
Let me try to explain this yet again and expand on what I had already written about the issue.
OK this was back, when the economy was booming before the crash. 29 jobs over 3 months were all that were available that I was qualified for. Example of job not qualified for Semi trucker. I can not apply for this if I am not qualified. THE MAIN THING is how I was being turned down, when I WAS QUALIFIED FOR OR OVERQUALIFIED. I have gone into detail how the process works. ON BEING TURNED DOWN BASED ON IMPAIRMENTS. I wasn't turned down because it was filled or i couldn't do the job or bad attitude or lack of work ethics, I do not talk too much either, remember hearing impairment. etc. AS SOON AS I MENTION IMPAIRMENTS WHICH I AM UNDER LAW, REQUIRED TO TELL THEM, the interview is OVER. The excuse they give me, position was filled. If it was filled, why was the sign up for weeks on end after the interview, when the position I applied for was the only one available at the business, and why did the interview take place, if the position was already filled? It is wasted money, interviewing a person you have no intention to hire before they walk in, what kind of business wastes money on interviews for position already filled, that is NOT corporate?.

Here in the states, it is legally established loophole, to use "POSITION FILLED" as a LEGAL means to discriminate. We have case law to support this. I have talked to several EMPLOYMENT lawyers about this. I have no legal recourse to fight it. In a situation Like this you become unemployable. Getting training to be a semi truck driver is out, I can't drive at night, because I get severe vertigo where the world is spinning rapidly from either right to left or left to right, This increases risks of accidents.

Trust me I am not making this stuff up I really wish I was. It is not an excuse not to work either, I loved working, I was a workaholic. I have employment awards before I had *"heart surgery."* <--- was the final nail in the employment coffin. Anyone who has had heart surgery, gets elevated to "HIGH RISK" on workers insurance for workers comp. It is not necessarily written in to the contract, It is exchanged by word of mouth, so no documentation, so they don't get sued for discrimination, because the documentation would have been proof of singling out of particular people for exclusion. <--- This is one of the reasons people with severe heart disease get permanent disability in the states. In my case the surgery corrected a defect, So I am not diagnosed that way under the SSA rules. My problem is the general population hear heart surgery they jump to the worse possible conclusion that I am a walking time bomb that will die on the job,(their body language gives it away, when I mention heart surgery)) which would cause insurance to skyrocket. 

One of the employers I had worked for , was frank with me about the insurance side of it, I wasn't aware of it till They(2 people in conference) explained it to me, only reason they told me, was because I had signed a "AS WILL EMPLOYMENT contract" I could not sue, for any reason what so ever, so they did not fear my finding out, nor fear retaliation, I was hauled by ambulance from this employer, week or so before the heart surgery. I had to step down from supervisor or be fired out right, Did not matter if I was capable of fulfilling the job, which I was. My Heart impairment was the reason for the demotion/ eventual quitting(They openly admitted it to my face in the conference Quote what I was told after the fact::" We are glad you came to your senses to volunteer stepping down from crew supervisor. If you had not, we were going to fire you on the basis, we feel your too high risk, and (may not*) be able to perform your job as supervisor, .with your "heart issue") and this lead to eventual quitting of the job. By the way, it was a government Job. "Minnesota Conservation Corps" This Link is an off-shoot of "MCC" http://www.serveminnesota.org/programs/conservation-corps-minnesota I was part of MCC during its transition years to what is now on the previous link. * The "may not" meant they had no proof, it would impact my performance, decision was made before we could even find out, if it was even going to be an issue. It was a "fear knee jerk" response and exclusion of a sick person (FACT by their own admission). MCC is one of the places I received employment Awards, (as being the best corps man in our region"s" ) I still have the plaque. I had my dreams smashed here. I had finally gotten my foot in the door for my dream employment, only to have the door slammed in my face. Are you familiar with "grizzly Adams"? He was my role model growing up. Little factoid from a fan site not mine. http://www.shevin.org/Grizzly_Adams_DVD_with_Don_Haggerty.html

Point is, when determining if a person is employable or not, It is a case by case basis, You CAN NOT apply a "blanket standard" or "MOLD" to determining if a person is employable or not.

Now really this is enough on the employment issue This is completely off topic and besides the point of the thread. I am going to respond to another person who I promised to respond too before I left.

Disabled rider.


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## disabled rider (9 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> Trouble these days is you don't know who may watching what you're doing. Get a book/film out of a library, a record is made of who it went to & when. Similar record when its returned. Pay for something & record is made, when, where, how much & what for. There is no real way round this system.
> 
> Use a computer, connected to the internet? Maybe its not safe.
> http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1960971/pg1
> ...


 

Were you trying to describe where I live? too bad not even close I had admitted to living in a "TOWER" you know buildings with elevators


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## Oldspice (9 Oct 2012)

So people who have had heart surgery/epilepsy can no get jobs? Maybe the company's just didn't like you,it's there choice who they wish to employ and if your neighbours complain about your BO.....


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## disabled rider (9 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> I honestly do not think he had a plot to lose.
> 
> As others have pointed out, if he doesn't like what you are saying, you are wrong. And he starts off down a new tack.
> What it comes down to having read all that he's posted is:
> ...


 
ok all I can say you misunderstood what been talking about, and manipulating what I been saying into something entirely different.

Where have I EVER SAID EVERYONE IS OUT TO GET ME? in context to myself. I think you have some comprehension issues, when reading my posts. With this suspicion, I forgive you for the slight. So long as you stop implying I have said something I have not.

in the future ask for clarification instead to specific points I have made, This post is about as bad as oldspice's post when it came to analyzing me.


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## disabled rider (9 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> I assumed that he was telling the truth with regards where he was posting from. It was his use of words that got me thinking english was not his first language. Thats where the African & Eastern European came from.
> 
> 
> Whats to stop more than one person using the same computer. Currently in a Library, writing this.


IP check doesn't work if your on a roving dynamic IP address. Our police and FBI have claimed frustration about this because it makes it hard to track specific people when dealing with sting operations/ investigation , this came out , when they were caught using illegal tracking software to spy on its citizens, I reset my IP address regularly, To avoid harassment by individuals that get off on harassing people.


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## mcshroom (9 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> o
> Where have I EVER SAID EVERYONE IS OUT TO GET ME? in context to myself. I think you have some comprehension issues, when reading my posts. With this suspicion, I forgive you for the slight. So long as you stop implying I have said something I have not.






disabled rider said:


> IP check doesn't work if your on a roving dynamic IP address. Our police and FBI have claimed frustration about this because it makes it hard to track specific people when dealing with sting operations/ investigation , this came out , when they were caught using illegal tracking software to spy on its citizens, *I reset my IP address regularly, To avoid harassment by individuals that get off on harassing people.*



hmm, not all out to get you then


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## Oldspice (9 Oct 2012)

You do know that your computer has a unique number that identity's itself on the net, just like a mobile phone has a unique number regardless of what sim card is used. As long as you use the same computer you are trackable regardless of IP address


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## Pat "5mph" (9 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> *Disabled rider, please read.*
> 
> If you want exclusion. I am not allowed to fly on any of the airlines over here, as I represent an "unacceptable risk to the crew, plane & passengers"(in that order) whilst the plane is in the air. Thats exclusion for you. Blatant and outright!


I never knew that 
That's discrimination for sure. Any of us could get sick on a plane, so what?


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## disabled rider (9 Oct 2012)

MrJamie said:


> My poor brain can't keep track of all the information in this thread anymore. The bit about not being fit enough to ride the longer way to the deer hunting area but being able to drag around an animal that typically weighs more than an average man and like everyone else not being allowed to ride a bicycle on the pavement but not explaining why his disability prevents normal road cycling.
> 
> I was curious about the amount of meat you'd get from a deer too, it looks like it varies a lot but after dragging say a 100kg deer corpse up the apartment stairwell (which the neighbours must love), apparently you'd be looking in the region of 45kg of edible meat or about 180 steaks  Poor Bambis


 
I will simplify it for you, heart surgery, 20 miles I am fine, 40+ I may have problems. Use of 52 will bring that mileage in to the 20 mile range. using back roads I could go 50-100 miles to get to that area or similar area. Now I am in trouble. I am still capable of getting there If I take the direct route. Telling me I can only use back roads, which are even more dangerous, with no shoulders and windy roads not to mention total distance that compromises my health. I am capable of hunting if the policy is modified. I am not capable of it, if the policy stays the same. It is the POLICY that disabled me. NOT my impairments.

Think about the person in wheel chair and the second floor example i used early on, with no elevator. But the person was capable of participating in the meeting.

I won't need to drag deer far, I take the trailer to the deer or near the deer out of respect to other hunters. I can also pace myself little bit at time, it is not a race unlike like a job is, where time is money.

I can tell you fell for false info by other poster about where I live. I am in tower with elevators, we have quite a few tower apartments in the states. I don't ever have to lift the full weight of the deer. I don't have to lift it into the trailer either you drag it into it you only have to apply a fraction of the force then.. I could move a 300lb log using leverage by myself with little effort, even after heart surgery. use your brain to problem solve..


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## disabled rider (9 Oct 2012)

Oldspice said:


> You do know that your computer has a unique number that identity's itself on the net, just like a mobile phone has a unique number regardless of what sim card is used. As long as you use the same computer you are trackable regardless of IP address


If this was true then the FBI and Police wouldn't be complaining.


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## mcshroom (9 Oct 2012)

If they didn't complain then people might realise they still had the ability to do so


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## Oldspice (9 Oct 2012)

It's true. IP only shows location. PC/phone is the link to that location. The FBI and Police and legally monitor your activities without a warrant.

To be completely anonymous you would need a burn phone and a burn PC and never access your email or anything that would identify you in anyway, so your not that anonymous your just not important enough to keep tags on.


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## classic33 (10 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> Were you trying to describe where I live? too bad not even close I had admitted to living in a "TOWER" you know buildings with elevators


 But elsewhere, *not on here*, you have said that the lifts do not work. This means you have to walk up the stairs, which you claimed was discrimination "because you poor".
_"If you were rich you could live somewhere else, better!, where the lifts work. You then would not have to walk up stairs. Presumably walking up & down stairs is only for the poor, in your book." *My words*_

Important question.
When you were last stopped, whilst cycling on the pavement, by the police. Had you been drinking or drinking at the time?
Long winded answer or avoiding the question will be taken as a meaning yes.
So simple answer required, YES or NO.


Longshot
Film feeds working okay.

Oldspice
It was me that brought epilepsy into this. Pointing out what trouble it causes me. I have a code that blocks the IMEI number from the system. Change in the law a few years ago, over here, means they can now charge for calls made using this code. Whether making or receiving, previously they had to prove the call was outbound. Part of the system, so they can't disable it.


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## Oldspice (10 Oct 2012)

Classic33 You get charged for incoming calls (i may have read that wrong). Thanks IMEI was the number that i was thinking of.


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## disabled rider (10 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> Trouble these days is you don't know who may watching what you're doing. Get a book/film out of a library, a record is made of who it went to & when. Similar record when its returned. Pay for something & record is made, when, where, how much & what for. There is no real way round this system.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh and by the way, if you read what you claim to have reposted, you'll find very little matches your opening post. You don't know what those on here are qualified in, so please do not make unfounded statements, unless you are able to back them up, with proof. You want us to back up what we are saying, you are now being told to do the same. After all you don't want to exclude anyone, do you?


 
OH and by the way, The first post was a PRELUDE not the actual subject of the matter so of course its not going to match the first post.

I already asked the library a year ago, they don't and are not allowed to record what you have checked out to keep a record. It is a "privacy thing" and the library server does not have the capability to track. I wanted my record to keep track of what I checked out as a reminder of the material I had checked out in the past, , So I would not check material I had already used out again, when you get past 6000 it gets hard to remember every detail of everything you viewed. Our records are purged once the material is returned, by law.

most of my activities is off the grid. simply because I don't use "most" of the stuff that tracks you. I can't afford it anyway. 

Only thing that gets or can be tracked is using the library computer for internet access, even that can only be tracked to the library card number NOT the person. simply use someone else library number and password, password is only 4 digits.


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## Pat "5mph" (10 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> I will simplify it for you, heart surgery, 20 miles I am fine, 40+ I may have problems. Use of 52 will bring that mileage in to the 20 mile range. using back roads I could go 50-100 miles to get to that area or similar area. Now I am in trouble. I am still capable of getting there If I take the direct route. Telling me I can only use back roads, which are even more dangerous, with no shoulders and windy roads not to mention total distance that compromises my health. I am capable of hunting if the policy is modified. I am not capable of it, if the policy stays the same. It is the POLICY that disabled me. NOT my impairments.
> 
> Think about the person in wheel chair and the second floor example i used early on, with no elevator. But the person was capable of participating in the meeting.
> 
> ...


My brain tells me there is an ideal job for you: you could be a cellar master: that means taking deliveries for a large licenced premises, keep the delivery log, dispense the liqueur/barrels of beer to the various bars.
You are able to lift with equipment, you are clever enough to keep the log, you don't need social skills at all for this as you don't see the public.
Here in the UK this is a reasonable paid job.
BTW, we have towers with elevators too here, I'm pretty sure dragging a dead deer in one of them would be frowned upon


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## classic33 (10 Oct 2012)

Oldspice said:


> Classic33 You get charged for incoming calls (i may have read that wrong). Thanks IMEI was the number that i was thinking of.


You read right, and wrong! If a call is made using the code, the system is unable to detemine if the call is inbound or outbound only that the number is in use.

Think of it as dialling a number & getting an engaged tone. You know the number is in use, but you are unable to say who called who. That is what the code does to the system.

Prior to the change in the law, they had to prove that the call was outbound, before they could charge for it. Now they don't have to prove which way the call was going in order to charge

Disabled rider.
Awaiting answer or are you evading the question!


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## classic33 (10 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> OH and by the way, The first post was a PRELUDE not the actual subject of the matter so of course its not going to match the first post..


 Which you claimed to repost



disabled rider said:


> I already asked the library a year ago, they don't and are not allowed to record what you have checked out to keep a record. It is a "privacy thing" and the library server does not have the capability to track. I wanted my record to keep track of what I checked out as a reminder of the material I had checked out in the past, , So I would not check material I had already used out again, when you get past 6000 it gets hard to remember every detail of everything you viewed. Our *records are purged* once the material is returned, by law..


So they say. That being the case how do they know what books they have

most of my activities is off the grid. simply because I don't use "most" of the stuff that tracks you. I can't afford it anyway.



disabled rider said:


> Only thing that gets or can be tracked is using the library computer for internet access, even that can only be tracked to the library card number NOT the person. simply use someone else library number and password, password is only 4 digits.


Card traced back to user, pin number traced back to user. Unless you give both to someone else! Either way it will come back to you.


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## disabled rider (10 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> But elsewhere, *not on here*, you have said that the lifts do not work. This means you have to walk up the stairs, which you claimed was discrimination "because you poor".
> _"If you were rich you could live somewhere else, better!, where the lifts work. You then would not have to walk up stairs. Presumably walking up & down stairs is only for the poor, in your book." *My words*_
> 
> Important question.
> ...


 
I have never mentioned anything about elevators not working, we have more than 1. we have redundancy, in senior towers, in the USA minimum 2 elevators , only time both elevators fail, is power outage and in the time I have lived here, we have not been without power.

Police have never stopped me in the 30 years of cycling.

Police understand, the law discriminates, which is why they had not enforced it in my case specifically.

The neighbors in this building are trying too, by forcing police hands in to an action police do not want to do.

I have only been in 4 or so other threads, with no mention of tower or apartment, because it is not relevant to those threads.

I have not avoided any questions the question you posted here in this quote is bad info to start with. so a simple yes or no, is not possible, because I am trying to correct your bad info. I only removed responses to other posters in the quoted.

only place I might have mentioned apartment, is in the introduction hello thread, which I had conveniently re-posted to this thread earlier, I would not have gone into detail there either, because of the fact, my apartment has nothing to do with being discriminated while cycling. 
--------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
My focus has been the same, all along, I have not changed direction an Iota. , which is get people to understand that policy can be discriminatory. By establishing a point of perspective that is from a persons with impairments. To use MY personal experience, as example, of the discriminatory policy in action. And why said policies need to be changed to include people with impairments.

The only things that have changed, if at all is when a poster like "V" point out an error in how I said something. They pointed out 29 jobs 100% unemployable, That is did not include their organization. Once they pointed this out, I corrected myself by saying: "I am 100% unemployable in my community", Adding the red portion. and apologized to "v"


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## classic33 (10 Oct 2012)

Thats a YES then.
And if you take the time to read, digest & understand what was posted, or, as you put it understand what was said, you will see that I clearly said "But elsewhere, *not on here*,".


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## classic33 (10 Oct 2012)

Me go now. Work in a few hours


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## disabled rider (10 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> You read right, and wrong! If a call is made using the code, the system is unable to detemine if the call is inbound or outbound only that the number is in use.
> 
> Think of it as dialling a number & getting an engaged tone. You know the number is in use, but you are unable to say who called who. That is what the code does to the system.
> 
> ...


Patience I take time to write, this is not a chat room, this is a forum, I was busy wring a response to you when you posted this.

Now I need to find the post in which I had originally Promised to reply too If I do not respond It is because I am busy writing. I have not evaded anyone 

I am still trying to get use to this (every time I post, it sends me to the last page) then I have to reread stuff trying to find where I left off. I do not allow cookies on my computer, regardless to what the sites say. So its bouncing me around as a result. I am doing the best I can

If its something that needs an answer point it out I may have accidentally overlooked it because of the getting bounced about, It is not intentional. Also keep in mind a moderator goes through this thread deleting/editing posts, especially the uncivil posts, None of mine so far as far as I can tell.

Once I find the poster I promised to respond too, I intend to reread a lot of the thread, because they think they had caught me with my pants down so to speak, I haven't even pulled my pants down, nor have they fallen down, yet, and I need to quote from my previous posts to prove it. This is going to take time, be patient. This is a "forum" after all and not a "chat room".

disabled rider.


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## Bay Runner (10 Oct 2012)

Goodbye cruel world,
I'm leaving you today.
Goodbye,
Goodbye,
Goodbye.

Goodbye, all you people, 
There's nothing you can say
To make me change my mind.
Goodbye.


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## disabled rider (10 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> Thats a YES then.
> And if you take the time to read, digest & understand what was posted, or, as you put it understand what was said, you will see that I clearly said "But elsewhere, *not on here*,".


 
I am allergic to alcohol I can't drink, I don't do drugs, don't smoke for same reason I don't drink


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## disabled rider (10 Oct 2012)

[QUOTE 2087450, member: 45"]Just to help, can someone remind me of the first post?[/quote]
Ok keep in mind the FIRST POST is not even the issue It was establishing grounds as to how this thread should be conducted as to not get derailed. It was also a warning, that what I was going to write about is sensitive topic that was going to push people buttons, yet it really needed to be addressed. I am not trolling here. It is a real issue that gets shunned in public places, especially when it involves who is talking and bringing it up. People get very uncomfortable, when a person with Impairments, brings up discrimination towards them.

I originally planned doing it in chapters "prelude" 1,2 ,3,4,5 After chapter 1, I abandoned the format due to peer pressure and bad comments made by posters who were derailing the thread before it even got off the ground.. The bad comments were removed mostly, by one of the moderators. The moderator had warned other members to be civil towards each other. I was and am being civil which is why it was not really directed at me.

The prelude is an establishment to the rest of what a person has to say, it is not necessarily going to share the actual content of what a person is actually planning on talking about.


----------



## Fnaar (10 Oct 2012)

Write a blog, man! Then you can write short letters to the press saying there are issues, and suggesting they read your blog.


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## disabled rider (10 Oct 2012)

mr_hippo said:


> DR said that `One in which my constitutionally protected right of freedom of movement is being challenged' but all of us have out freedom of movement either challenged or restricted! Car drivers cannot drive on canal paths, UK cyclists cannot cycle on motorways and there are some road bridges here that I cannot cycle over and do not get me started on about freedom of movement in buildings - those doors that are marked `Authorised Personnel Only` are restricting my freedom of movement!
> 
> Disabled Rider, do you lock your apartment door when you go out and at night? You do? How dare you, how bl--dy dare you! You are restricting the movement of your friendly neighbourhood burglar! Leave it unlocked and he may take pity on a poor person and leave stuff for you; he is just like Santa Claus!
> 
> If you are poor and/or disabled then you cannot cycle on Hwy 52 and guess what? If you are rich and able-bodied you still cannot cycle on Hwy 52!


 
You missed the point I been driving from the beginning.

The examples you used, shows to me that you missed the point I was making about freedom of movement.

we have under the US constitution a right to freedom of movement from point a to point b city to city and distances in between. roads, trains, planes, boats. over land isn't an option because most of it private.

the distinction between poor and rich is the availability of the above options. from the poor stand point there is only 1 real option road via foot or bicycle. Roads are public spaces. so lets say a poor man lives in the twin cities. How is he going to move to Rochester for work when his only options due to income is either by foot or bicycle. And 52 is the only real access to get between the two? asking for rides and asking for money for the move is not available to him.

Our constitution protects his right to get from twin cities to Rochester. "Freedom of movement." problem comes in that state law VIOLATES his constitutionally protected rights by forbidding bicycle on 52. I know for fact its not a safety issue with 10-12ft shoulders and it is straight with very few rises or dips that block viability, nor is there a barrier at the shoulders that would bounce a car back on to the road if it crashed.. So the chances of actually getting hit are very low.

Basically what your interpretation of what I said is tough luck, that poor person MUST stay in the city and die. or break the law in order to survive.

This is unacceptable to me and I am challenging that way of thinking and that kind of action. What I had been suggesting is to amend laws like this to coincide with the constitutionally protected rights, or civil rights.. To allow poor/disabled freedom of movement that the rich enjoy, The rich won't even be using a bike, they will be using a car because they can afford it with impunity. or quicker yet fly if its available.


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## disabled rider (10 Oct 2012)

Fnaar said:


> Write a blog, man! Then you can write short letters to the press saying there are issues, and suggesting they read your blog.


A moderator suggested the same I explained the traffic just does not come and is useless for advocacy, advocacy only really works in large numbers, when dealing with disability rights. Blog doesn't really provide that kind of exposure especially free blogs.. Then if you had actually read the thread you would have already known that.


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## disabled rider (10 Oct 2012)

Jodee1kenobi said:


> I stopped reading this post after the first sentence, not because I am LAZY! But because you are calling many, who have taken the time (and it has taken plenty!!) to read and post on this thread LAZY! How rude?! It is evident from the amount of replies that most people are trying to understand and question. If you don't like what you see why post in the first place?


 
I said many of the readers, I did not say all of the readers BIG difference, I can tell many don't read it based on how they comment. I don't know what your getting upset about, if your one who has actually read my posts completely through, then the comment doesn't apply to you does it? Then there is no need for you to get upset then is there?

I was calling the people who were not reading it, or skimming so quickly that they misunderstand it. Based on how they comment, they would say get lost or completely interpret me as saying something completely different , Or their posts were uncivil and not even related to the thread or particular point..

Did I ever say "You posters, who have read my posts all the way through, are being lazy?" no But you did accuse me of that by saying Quote:" But because you are calling many, who have taken the time (and it has taken plenty!!) to read and post on this thread LAZY!" I did no such thing. You interpreted more into what I wrote , than what was actually there.

The number of replies does not mean to much, it is the content of the replies that count. I don't want to contemplate the ones that were removed/ edited.

May I make a suggestion , reread stuff to ensure you understood it right. I do. Anything longer than a few lines, I often read 2-3 or more times to ensure I understood it. It is an ADAPTATION to my LD. to me its second nature, since I been doing it from my early school days. It is One of the reasons it takes me longer to process stuff.(this does not mean less successful)

Some times, especially when Offended, I reread it up to 5 times or more to make sure i Understood it. I did it to couple of Oldspices comments, especially when she started going on about the mental health/ employment issue.

I reread yours at least 4 times or more.

No, it is not a compulsive disorder. If you missed it above its an adaptation to the LD taught to me in school.

Its embarrassing, misunderstanding another person. Or to get caught with your pants down so to speak, as another poster put it..

I reread my own posts so many times it is not funny. One of the reasons the core content stays the same. I burn it to long term memory.
----------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------


Then I am not look for attention, I am trying to deal with a painful issue, that effects many disabled / poor. when cycling.
OK those of you who think I am looking for attention. Consider this and just maybe you will understand, Why I don't like attention, and don't really want it. I am not complaining, when I am talking about my past I am sharing, there is a big difference, which several postings have over looked, or misinterpreted, complaining about me complaining, I wasn't complaining about my past, was sharing.. Here it goes: The vast majority of attention in my past is been of a "painful nature" Constant bullying not just by a couple people , but many, I have had entire crowds gang up on me. I HATE pain. I avoid it as much as I can. Now I associate attention with pain. Remember I just got done saying I avoid pain. That means, things that remind me of pain I try to avoid. Meaning I try to avoid or do not like attention, even of the good variety. Because I am reminded of PAIN. I do not associate attention with good feelings. When I won that award for the MCC I was proud of winning it, I hated the attention and wanted out ASAP, went to the front accepted the award, turned around, refusing to look at anyone-else, went straight back to my seat and tried to shrink. That is C-PTSD for you. This is Very difficult to fix, been working at it, for more than 30 years. 

I have no idea how many posts, other than number of pages, when I look at it, other than that I am not even keeping track.
I don't care about point systems or anything else that keeps score here.

Heck I am still trying to find that post I promised to reply to, every time I post it takes me to the end and not where I left off, most likely related to not allowing cookies? each post that side tracks me from that promise, only galvanizes me to make sure I do respond to the post.

I hereby vow, that when I come back next, that I will not post to any other post, till I have responded to the member I made the promise to get back to their post, earlier this afternoon, my time.

disabled rider. (meaning I am leaving for the night and will be back to fulfill the vow promise. before responding to anyone-else post.)


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## mr_hippo (10 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> You missed the point I been driving from the beginning.





disabled rider said:


> The examples you used, shows to me that you missed the point I was making about freedom of movement. .



You have freedom of movement; you may not have the means but you still have freedom of movement!
You give an example of a poor man living in the Twin Cities and moving to Rochester. If it were you, I will assume that as well as a bicycle you also have personal possessions. How many bicycle trips would it take you to move all your possessions to Rochester? For the benefit of readers who are not familiar with the area it is about a 200 mile trip


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## Longshot (10 Oct 2012)

Longshot said:


> If I'm reading the live film feeds correctly, he'll be back online within the next five minutes as he's just arrived home again.


Longshot, Yesterday at 22:49


and...



disabled rider said:


> Whatever


disabled rider, Yesterday at 22:56

Ohhhh, 2 minutes out!!


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## Mugshot (10 Oct 2012)

Longshot said:


> Longshot, Yesterday at 22:49
> 
> 
> and...
> ...


I noticed that and got scared, the force is strong with you young Longshot.


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## on the road (10 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> The rich won't even be using a bike, they will be using a car because they can afford it with impunity. or quicker yet fly if its available.


How do you know?

I have a car and also ride a bike, a lot of people have cars and also ride bikes. And I'm sure it's the same in America.


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## classic33 (10 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> I am allergic to alcohol I can't drink, I don't do drugs, don't smoke for same reason I don't drink


 Doesn't mean you were not drinking before or at the time you were stopped (Post Number 394, Page 20)
Remains unanswered. You have evaded the question.

See
#363, Page 19
#378. Page 19
#380, Page 19



disabled rider said:


> Ok keep in mind the FIRST POST is not even the issue It was establishing grounds as to how this thread should be conducted as to not get derailed. It was also a warning, that what I was going to write about is sensitive topic that was going to push people buttons, yet it really needed to be addressed. I am not trolling here. It is a real issue that gets shunned in public places, especially when it involves who is talking and bringing it up. People get very uncomfortable, when a person with Impairments, brings up discrimination towards them.
> 
> I originally planned doing it in chapters "prelude" 1,2 ,3,4,5 After chapter 1, I abandoned the format due to peer pressure and bad comments made by posters who were derailing the thread before it even got off the ground.. *The bad comments were removed mostly, by one of the moderators. The moderator had warned other members to be civil towards each other. I was and am being civil which is why it was not really directed at me.*


 


disabled rider said:


> MrJamie said: ↑
> I've read all of this thread, please show me where you've explained why you need to ride on the sidewalk.
> This is the vague comment im talking about, you don't explain why you're more at risk just say that you are.
> 
> ...


 
A few minor mistakes now showing on your part.

You drive, yet you don't take the car when going hunting. To do so would allow you to use the shorter route. Since you insist that we do not chop your posts up & mis-quote, can you show the same respect. Also read, learn & digest what is being said to you. You want us to do it with your posts,but will not reciprocate.

You have posted links to places/mentioned places off this forum & when what has been found there & elsewhere, you insist we are wrong or that we do not know what you mean. In some of the posts

*Disabled rider*
How many deer carrying, pavement cyclist live in your area?
This question raised because you evade answering the first one asked about drink.

My post(#385, page 20) was worded using what you have posted on here & elsewhere. Yet you disagree/don't like it. Why is that?


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## classic33 (10 Oct 2012)

Having just come off the phone with East Grand Forks Police Department, Minnesota. I'm posting the following. I don't think he believed I was phoning from the UK.
Cycling on the pavement is not illegal, but the cyclist must cycle at a speed releative to those walking on it. They must also give way to those walking on it, as those on foot have prioritity. Fail to do so & the cyclist is at fault. If a complaint is made against a cyclist, they(the police) will go and speak to them. To get them to stop.

If they "believe you represent a hazard to those walking", they will "require you to move onto the road". Regardless of ability.

Certain routes are off limits to cyclists over there for similar reasons over here. As is the case in the UK, you get caught on one of these off-limit routes you will be talked to, regarding your actions. Regardless of ability.


Note, where cyclist is given above for the US, read bicyclist. For footpath, read sidewalk.


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## hobbitonabike (10 Oct 2012)

Two words...paranoid and delusional....do with them what you will!!!


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## classic33 (10 Oct 2012)

Pat "5mph" said:


> I never knew that
> That's discrimination for sure. Any of us could get sick on a plane, so what?


 Thats due to the epilepsy. A fit/seizure whilst the plane is in flight would require an immediate emergency landing. Normal restraint methods that can be used on an aircraft are not allowed.


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## Jodee1kenobi (10 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> I said many of the readers, I did not say all of the readers BIG difference, I can tell many don't read it based on how they comment. I don't know what your getting upset about, if your one who has actually read my posts completely through, then the comment doesn't apply to you does it? Then there is no need for you to get upset then is there?
> 
> 
> 
> *May I make a suggestion , reread stuff to ensure you understood it right.* I do. Anything longer than a few lines, I often read 2-3 or more times to ensure I understood it. It is an ADAPTATION to my LD. to me its second nature, since I been doing it from my early school days. It is One of the reasons it takes me longer to process stuff.(this does not mean less successful)


 
Nope I understood perfectly well thanks. May I make the same suggestion to you, as I didn't say ALL readers, like you I used the word MANY.


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## classic33 (10 Oct 2012)

_"Minnesota Bicycling law gives cyclists the same rights and responsibilities as motorists. This means that you have the freedom to ride on all streets, except for those which prohibit cyclists. In Minneapolis, prohibited streets include the limited access freeway system (such as I-94, I-35W, I-394, MN 62). As a cyclist, you also have the responsibility to follow all traffic laws. Among other things, this includes signaling turns, following traffic signals and signs, using headlights and rear reflectors (although taillights are advised), riding with the flow of traffic, following right-of-way rules, and yielding to pedestrians who have entered a marked or unmarked crosswalk."_


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## Mugshot (10 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> Having just come off the phone with East Grand Forks Police Department, Minnesota. I'm posting the following. I don't think he believed I was phoning from the UK.
> Cycling on the pavement is not illegal, but the cyclist must cycle at a speed releative to those walking on it. They must also give way to those walking on it, as those on foot have prioritity. Fail to do so & the cyclist is at fault. If a complaint is made against a cyclist, they(the police) will go and speak to them. To get them to stop.
> 
> If they "believe you represent a hazard to those walking", they will "require you to move onto the road". Regardless of ability.
> ...


Did you ask them about dragging animal carcases along?


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## classic33 (10 Oct 2012)

Mugshot said:


> Did you ask them about dragging animal carcases along?


 
No, but wouldn't that be covered by "representing a hazard to thos walking".

Thats going to be another call, in a few hours, when offices have opened. I'll get back to you that one as well as the gutting & cleaning of said deer in a residential building
Edit. Quick call has given the answer that "slaughter and or butchering would not be legal on a residential property" Property would have to be checked to see that it meets required US safety, health & hygeine standards. "Was I aware of anyone doing this" & "would I be willing to name them" Tempting that last one.


Oldspice
Have you tried the code yet?


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## Mugshot (10 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> No, but wouldn't that be covered by "representing a hazard to thos walking".
> 
> Thats going to be another call, in a few hours, when offices have opened. I'll get back to you that one as well as the gutting & cleaning of said deer in a residential building.
> 
> ...


Sir, I salute your courage, your strength, your indefatigability, and I want you to know that we are with you


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## classic33 (10 Oct 2012)

[QUOTE 2090257, member: 45"]Ask them if they've got any jobs going.[/quote]

https://hris.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/psp/candidate/CANDIDATE/HRMS/c/HRS_HRAM.HRS_CE.GBL?LangaugeCd=ENG
http://www.iseek.org/jobs/topvacancies.html
https://statejobs.doer.state.mn.us/JobPosting/2338bcd8734f8b625a8467b56d3bf39d/Results


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## classic33 (10 Oct 2012)

Mugshot said:


> Sir, I salute your courage, your strength, your indefatigability, and I want you to know that we are with you


 Thanks, I'm only trying to help.


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## Trail Child (10 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> Thats due to the epilepsy. A fit/seizure whilst the plane is in flight would require an immediate emergency landing. Normal restraint methods that can be used on an aircraft are not allowed.


I did not know this! I've never been questioned about health status before (here in Canada - it's discriminatory). I guess I can't fly on any British carriers?


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## classic33 (10 Oct 2012)

Animal Welfare
In the circumstances described, carrying a dead deer on a bike or in a trailer, you could be prosecuted
They put me through to city resources, where this was got
http://www.minneapolismn.gov/www/groups/public/@regservices/documents/webcontent/convert_280638.pdf
Section 4 could be a bit problamatic
They have again said that if I am aware of the persons name to report it. “Would I be willing to make a complaint now”

I think the accent is making them believe that the questions are not genuine. Other than that, being passsed from pillar to post, no different to here.


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## classic33 (10 Oct 2012)

Trail Child said:


> I did not know this! I've never been questioned about health status before (here in Canada - it's discriminatory). I guess I can't fly on any British carriers?


 It is. But as I don't intend flying due to the list of restrictions, I'm not that bothered. I'll travel by alternate means.


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## glasgowcyclist (10 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> Thats due to the epilepsy. A fit/seizure whilst the plane is in flight would require an immediate emergency landing.


 
Really? Why? I could understand that if it happened to someone who had no previous seizure history but someone with existing epilepsy will already have made (or at least should have) airline staff aware.



> Normal restraint methods that can be used on an aircraft are not allowed.


 
I'm not sure what you mean by this: are you saying epileptics are not allowed to wear lap belts or that some other methods of restraining a seizure victim aren't allowed?

The information on epilepsy.org.uk suggests there is no automatic bar to flying with epilepsy:

_"Some people with epilepsy have concerns about flying. There is no evidence to suggest that flying is harmful, and people with epilepsy travel the world. _​_If your epilepsy is not completely controlled it may be advisable to let the travel agent/cabin staff know. Some airlines also have additional guidelines concerning people with epilepsy. An example might be for you to sit in an aisle seat in case you have a seizure. Further details may be available from your travel agent, or directly from the airline concerned."_​ 
And just to pick one example, Easyjet allow epilepsy sufferers on their flights.


GC


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## glasgowcyclist (10 Oct 2012)

Trail Child said:


> I did not know this! I've never been questioned about health status before (here in Canada - it's discriminatory). I guess I can't fly on any British carriers?


 
No, you've been given misleading information.

My advice would be to check with the airline to ensure they don't need something like a letter from your doctor stating you are fit to fly. I've just spoken to customer services at British Airways and they allow epilepsy sufferers to fly. Their cabin staff are trained to advanced first aid levels including how to cope if a passenger suffers a seizure on board.


GC


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## Oldspice (10 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> Oldspice
> Have you tried the code yet?


 
Soon as it drys i'll give it a go. Thank you


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## classic33 (10 Oct 2012)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Really? Why? I could understand that if it happened to someone who had no previous seizure history but someone with existing epilepsy will already have made (or at least should have) airline staff aware.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Never intended to give mis-leading information.
The type of seizure that normally occurs is Grand Mal. Requiring, due to past history, immediate medical attention, at a hospital if no improvement within a set time period. Which given the speed of the aircraft would mean that a fair distance can be covered in that time period. They have often developed into Status epilepticus, http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1164462-overview
Normal restraint methods are those used to restrain some-one who might have "kicked off", they can't sedate without the risk of making the condition worse. In a Grand Mal seizure, you do not restrict the movement of the person having the seizure. You can injure them & they can also injure you without knowing.
Given the restrictions that airlines have placed on me, one wanted insurance to cover for any emergency landing made as a result of a seizure.

As I said, *"I am not allowed to fly on any of the airlines over here, as I represent an "unacceptable risk to the crew, plane & passengers"(in that order) whilst the plane is in the air." *
That was meant to relate to me only. 
Checked the easyjet site & they require 24 hours after a seizure before they will let you fly.

GC, have used the wording/term seizure as used by you, just so that no-one is offended by what I call them. Sorry if you dis agree with that wording, but willing to change it, if you find it offensive.


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## classic33 (10 Oct 2012)

Oldspice said:


> Soon as it drys i'll give it a go. Thank you


 Why did you let the code get wet?

Update on the earlier post' #417. Call returned by two organizations. One municipal the other the EPA. Municipal wanted to know where & how these deer would be transported. Guidelines/regulations in place governing this. And in what has to be the daftest answer I have had to any enquiry, I have been told that I "could face prosecution for causing unnecessary sufferring to the animal". Given that when transported it would, I assume be dead, how can it be caused "unnecessary sufferring".

Municipal & EPA both wanted to know how the entrails/insides of the animal would be disposed off. The same with the blood. Very strict guidlines on this part, with heavy fines for any breach of the regulations.
One thing at least, with them phoning me they at least know the calls were genuine calls from the UK.


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## classic33 (10 Oct 2012)

Longshot said:


> If I'm reading the live film feeds correctly, he'll be back online within the next five minutes as he's just arrived home again.


Let us know when he shows up again, keep an eye on those live feeds


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## Longshot (10 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> Let us know when he shows up again, keep an eye on those live feeds


 
No sign yet unless he's getting wise to us and sneaking round the back.


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## classic33 (10 Oct 2012)

Longshot said:


> No sign yet unless he's getting wise to us and sneaking round the back.


He might be using that tunnel(post 310, about half way down) he talked about a while back. You'll have to get the building its coming from covered.


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## Longshot (10 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> He might be using that tunnel he talked about a while back. You'll have to get the building its coming from covered.


 
Thanks for reminding me. I'm beginning to wish we had just drowned him in squirrels - it would have been a lot less effort.


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## classic33 (10 Oct 2012)

We're you aware that at the height of the UFO sightings, accross the US in the mid 80's, Peter Moller of flying car fame was employed by Lockheed at their Skunk Works?
Telephone number, from the UK, is 001 8055724163. Just give them my name when you call, they know me.


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## Moss (10 Oct 2012)

mattobrien said:


> I do often find that I am discriminated against by my wife who has on more that one occasion laughed at me while in full lycra, does that count?
> 
> On the other hand my eldest daughter (4) has seen me in said lycra gear and said "you look cool daddy", which I know I don't. I don't think she is old enough to grasp irony, so I am wondering if she is discriminating against me or me her? Too much to comprehend.
> 
> Cycling on the other hand, I have found to be a very inclusive past time. Other cyclists have always seemed very encouraging and supportive of newbies, be they rich, poor, fit or otherwise. I do find it transcends many barriers and think that the world is a better place for it.


 
Well said Matt,
I've just come across this thread; and at first wondered why would anyone discriminate aginst a disability of any kind, I mean, life for able bodied people can sometimes be difficult, let alone those who find themselves with disabling problems to overcome.
I stand in awe of anyone with a disability who gets out there and does the best they can; and would encourage others to follow their actions.


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## classic33 (10 Oct 2012)

Moss said:


> Well said Matt,
> I've just come across this thread; and at first wondered why would anyone discriminate aginst a disability of any kind, I mean, life for able bodied people can sometimes be difficult, let alone those who find themselves with disabling problems to overcome.
> I stand in awe of anyone with a disability who gets out there and does the best they can; and would encourage others to follow their actions.


I know you're new to this thread, but you are not allowed to say things like that without the OP's permission!


----------



## Oldspice (10 Oct 2012)

Moss said:


> Well said Matt,
> I've just come across this thread; and at first wondered why would anyone discriminate aginst a disability of any kind, I mean, life for able bodied people can sometimes be difficult, let alone those who find themselves with disabling problems to overcome.
> I stand in awe of anyone with a disability who gets out there and does the best they can; and would encourage others to follow their actions.


 
Are you sure you want people to follow the OP's actions?


----------



## Oldspice (10 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> He might be using that tunnel(post 310, about half way down) he talked about a while back. You'll have to get the building its coming from covered.


 
You mean he fills his trousers with soil so no one suspects him, then travels along the pavement shaking it out?

Reminds me of a certain film


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## classic33 (10 Oct 2012)

I think that this has gone the way of the other forums he's posted on. He's been unable to get more than token support & he'll stop posting. Although he's not logged on, he's watching.
Cameras are not the only means of keeping an eye/track on someone.
http://www.tysknews.com/Depts/Big_Brother/echelon_spy_in_the_sky.htm

Oldspice I don't think Moss has read this from the start, should we make it a requirement for new posters on here!


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## Oldspice (11 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> I think that this has gone the way of the other forums he's posted on. He's been unable to get more than token support & he'll stop posting. Although he's not logged on, he's watching.
> Cameras are not the only means of keeping an eye/track on someone.
> http://www.tysknews.com/Depts/Big_Brother/echelon_spy_in_the_sky.htm
> 
> Oldspice I don't think Moss has read this from the start, should we make it a requirement for new posters on here!


 
I think you'd be up for 'human rights infringement'


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## classic33 (11 Oct 2012)

Oldspice said:


> I think you'd be up for 'human rights infringement'


 Well if he starts at the beginning see how far he gets. Then at least he can say "I tried".


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## on the road (11 Oct 2012)

Is he sitting in a corner somewhere sweating it


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## classic33 (11 Oct 2012)

on the road said:


> Is he sitting in a corner somewhere sweating it


 Who? Moss or the OP.
Maybe the FBI tracked his computer down & shut it down.


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## MrJamie (11 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> Who? Moss or the OP.
> Maybe the FBI tracked his computer down & shut it down.


 Or he's hiding the entrails before they turn up


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## classic33 (11 Oct 2012)

One thing that I can't understand is the last answer on the list he gave. TMI(if this is your selection please PM as to why). He's admitted he can't work out how that bit is done, so, if we were to PM him what would the point be, he'd never be able to read them!


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## Oldspice (11 Oct 2012)

Maybe he's outside your window....watching....and waiting







If you can hear wheels squeaking, it's to late


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## glasgowcyclist (11 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> Never intended to give mis-leading information.


 
Ok, if you're speaking of your own particular circumstances, although it still strikes me as unusual that you've been given a blanket ban on flying, grand mal seizures or otherwise.

What concerned me was that others may read (as Trail Child did) that your comments were applicable to everyone with epilepsy.

I was also concerned in relation to your mention of restraint methods when it is definitely not recommended to attempt to restrain someone suffering a seizure. Nor is there any need for immediate medical intervention unless it is known to be the person's first seizure.

I realise you'll be familiar with the following so I post it solely to dispel any misconceptions others may hold regarding how to react to someone having a seizure.
----------------------------------------------
If you see a person having a seizure..
*DO*
_Protect the person from injury - (remove harmful objects from nearby) _​_Cushion his head _​_Look for an epilepsy identity card or identity jewellery _​_Aid breathing by gently placing him in the recovery position once the seizure has finished_​_Stay with the person until recovery is complete _​_Be calmly reassuring_​​*DO NOT*
_Restrain the person’s movements _​_Put anything in the person’s mouth _​_Try to move the person unless he is in danger _​_Give him anything to eat or drink until he is fully recovered _​_Attempt to bring him round_​_Call an ambulance if:_​_You know it is the person’s first seizure _​_The seizure continues for more than five minutes _​_One tonic-clonic seizure follows another without the person regaining consciousness between seizures _​_The person is injured during the seizure _​_You believe the person needs urgent medical attention_​​​-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Apologies to DR and others for temporarily hijacking the thread.

GC


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## classic33 (11 Oct 2012)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Ok, if you're speaking of your own particular circumstances, although it still strikes me as unusual that you've been given a blanket ban on flying, grand mal seizures or otherwise.
> 
> What concerned me was that others may read (as Trail Child did) that your comments were applicable to everyone with epilepsy.
> 
> ...


 

I don't think you have "hijacked the thread" by talking about a disability

I posted what I have had done to me, due to dis-ability, on this thread "Discrimination against the poor & disabled" because many would class it as discrimination(I called it outright & blatant) & because I worked round the problem by finding & using alterate means of travel. As an example to the OP of what he could do, if he felt like trying.

A typical seizure for me would be a period of automation, I'm on auto pilot, (minutes to hours) followed by the seizure as people would understand/know it. These have lasted more than five minutes & often they go into Status Epileticus. Injuries to the head are common, with minor cuts(lots of blood) elsewhere. Hence immediate medical treatment required.

This information would have been given at the time of booking & at the time of check-in. If I were to fly. Travel by ferry requires the SOLAS accord to be taken into account. Same information that would be given if I was flying is given there.


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## classic33 (11 Oct 2012)

Oldspice said:


> Maybe he's outside your window....watching....and waiting
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Nah, the deer he's carrying is heavy! & he can't afford to maintain the bike.


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## 4F (11 Oct 2012)

Have we permission to post yet ?


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## Moss (11 Oct 2012)

Hecklers from the Classic Oldspice,

Have I missed something in this thread? As I just quoted a responce to Matt's post, because I liked what he'd written.
Your correct in your assumption about me NOT reading the whole thread; nonetheless, that does not give you the rite to snyde comments.


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## Lee_M (11 Oct 2012)

Moss said:


> Hecklers from the Classic Oldspice,
> 
> Have I missed something in this thread? As I just quoted a responce to Matt's post, because I liked what he'd written.
> Your correct in your assumption about me NOT reading the whole thread; nonetheless, that does not give you the rite to snyde comments.


 
I thought the whole point of this thread was to post snide comments, cant see any point to it otherwise - I still dont know what the OP is on about


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## Andy_R (11 Oct 2012)

Moss said:


> Hecklers from the Classic Oldspice,
> 
> Have I missed something in this thread? As I just quoted a responce to Matt's post, because I liked what he'd written.
> Your correct in your assumption about me NOT reading the whole thread; nonetheless, that does not give you the rite to snyde comments.


I think you misread Classic and Oldspice. They are responding to the OPs set of "rules" as to who could post in this thread and what they could post. Trying to tell cyclists what they are and are not allowed to say and think is a bit like trying to tell the tide not to go in or out. Their comments were certainly not intended to be snide, but instead to be a gentle leg pull aimed at the OP (who has proved to be a bit of a pompous, overly verbose oaf so far, TBH)


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## Moss (11 Oct 2012)

Thanks Andy,
Gives a better understanding of the thread!
Apologies to : C & OS.
Moss


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## classic33 (11 Oct 2012)

Moss said:


> Thanks Andy,
> Gives a better understanding of the thread!
> Apologies to : C & OS.
> Moss


 No apology required.
I'm posting on here as someone who is dis-abled for part of the time, due to a condtion(epilepsy), able bodied for the most of the time. See page 19, post 378. Where a few of the limitations on what I'd be told I would be able to do have been proved wrong. I'll never lay claim to beating the condition, its more a case of how I've worked round what it limits/prevents me from doing & living with it.
I agree with your first post on this thread, as I'm sure others would. With me its a case of sod em, I'll try & if I fail at least I can say I tried. Which is what I said you'd be able to say if you were to attempt to read this from the start.

However given the way this thread started & went on it doesn't reflect on the title. Similar threads have been started elsewhere & on other cycling forums, OP admitted this. But in the lifetime of this thread other matters have come to light, which have no direct bearing on the thread title. Not all have been posted, some with good reason.

Sorry if you felt I was having a go at you, that was not the intention.
classic33


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## mr_hippo (11 Oct 2012)

In addition to the advice in GC's post, may I add one thing? If the person is standing when the seizure starts and is about to collapse, do not attempt to arrest the fall because you may injure your back and one casualty is better to deal with than two!
Now I will go off topic and it is thanks to GC who unlocked a memory from almost 20 years ago! It was my last Saudi contract and I was paramedic supervisor at Jeddah Airport. I was working with a Fillipino called Job and we had an emergency call out to the support camp about 1 am. The support camp is a housing estate which houses airport workers. I knew the camp well but Job as new to the job so I drove and asked him to find the addresss in the map book so he could guide me. The map book was a copy of a larger 8 foot by 6 foot wall map of the airport which had been cut into A3 pages and indexed so for example the house we were going to was 18 D3; Page 18, square D3. I asked Job if he knew how to use the map book and he said "I know, I know". which is Fillipino English code for "I haven't a clue"
We were met at the door by the husband who told us that is wife was epilectic. Sh was lying on the living room floor just coming round. After checking her, putting her to bed we had a cuppa with the husband and advised him to go to the medical centre later.
Driving back Job told me that he was a bit confused because the woman had had a myocardial infarction and we left her there! Myocardial infarction, the silent killer, displays no signs or symptons, the heart just stops. That is what killed my late wife.
I spent the rest of the shift quizzing Job and just as the sun was rising he announced that he had made a mistake and that woman had had a migraine!
Getting back on topic. I checked the map. It is possible to travel from the Twin Cities to Rochester avoiding the highway mentioned but it will put an extra 4 mile on the journey!


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## on the road (11 Oct 2012)

I know someone who is eppileptic, there was a few of us who used to go to a group meeting regulary and the advice he gave us was if he had seizure then to just put him in the recovery position, then to call his wife and then carry on as if he wasn't there.


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## ttcycle (11 Oct 2012)

on the road said:


> ...and then carry on as if he wasn't there.


 
Yes, to this, one of the most horrendous things for epileptics is when a large group gathers - sometimes in a seizure someone can still hear all the comments around them and find that people saying some of the most crap things quite upsetting.


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## classic33 (11 Oct 2012)

ttcycle said:


> Yes, to this, one of the most horrendous things for epileptics is when a large group gathers - sometimes in a seizure someone can still hear all the comments around them and find that people saying some of the most crap things quite upsetting.


 Getting carried of a bus, near a hospital, with four deep cuts to the face. Then going back to the same hospital the following day, for an appointment made weeks before, to find you've got the same driver as the previous day. Looked me up & down before sayin "If I go out & get drunk then I deserve everything I got". The brain had the answer before he'd finished, but the mouth couldn't deliver it. He was late the previous day, because of me.
I'd tried to cancel the appointment that morning, but the phone was put down on me. When I got to the hospital, the person who'd hung up on me couldn't stop apologizing. She thought it was a obscene/dirty call due to the heavy breathing & had already filed a report.


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## ttcycle (11 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> Getting carried of a bus, near a hospital, with four deep cuts to the face. Then going back to the same hospital the following day, for an appointment made weeks before, to find you've got the same driver as the previous day. Looked me up & down before sayin "If I go out & get drunk then I deserve everything I got". The brain had the answer before he'd finished, but the mouth couldn't deliver it. He was late the previous day, because of me.
> I'd tried to cancel the appointment that morning, but the phone was put down on me. When I got to the hospital, the person who'd hung up on me couldn't stop apologizing. She thought it was a obscene/dirty call due to the heavy breathing & had already filed a report.


 
You'd hope that people who work in patient transport are offered training about the various symptoms of conditions but sadly this is not always the case.

I know that people with diabetes in the middle of a hypo can resemble someone blindingly drunk. I suppose, the thing is you get all walks of people in life that either get it or don't.


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## classic33 (11 Oct 2012)

ttcycle said:


> You'd hope that people who work in patient transport are offered training about the various symptoms of conditions but sadly this is not always the case.
> 
> I know that people with diabetes in the middle of a hypo can resemble someone blindingly drunk. I suppose, the thing is you get all walks of people in life that either get it or don't.


 It wasn't a hospital bus, just a normal service bus whose route took it past the hospital.


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## ttcycle (11 Oct 2012)

Oh I see, well that's the thing, people can be prejudiced as well all know about many things, let alone disabilities.

Sad really isn't it. My disability though different to yours, is a hidden condition and the amount of tosh I put up with in relation to it is annoying but I don't bother letting their limited views and narrow minds cloud my life. Too much to do, let's not let the ignorance of those inhibit our lives any further.


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## on the road (11 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> I'd tried to cancel the appointment that morning, but *the phone was put down on me*. When I got to the hospital, the person who'd hung up on me couldn't stop apologizing. She thought it was a obscene/dirty call due to the heavy breathing & had already filed a report.


Although I don't want to reveal my situation (too personal) other than to say I know how you feel, that's something I've had to put up with all my life.


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## Oldspice (11 Oct 2012)

Moss said:


> Hecklers from the Classic Oldspice,
> 
> Have I missed something in this thread? As I just quoted a responce to Matt's post, because I liked what he'd written.
> Your correct in your assumption about me NOT reading the whole thread; nonetheless, that does not give you the rite to snyde comments.


 
What ANDY_R said


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## Cyclopathic (11 Oct 2012)

Has this thread broken any records for amount and or length of posts?


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## Trail Child (11 Oct 2012)

Cyclopathic said:


> Has this thread broken any records for amount and or length of posts?


Just mention "Lance Armstrong" and it will ... LOL.


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## Cyclopathic (11 Oct 2012)

Trail Child said:


> Just mention "Lance Armstrong" and it will ... LOL.


I understand that he too is suffering from the "exclusion factor" and having to suffer not being allowed to ride his bike.


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## classic33 (11 Oct 2012)

on the road said:


> Although I don't want to reveal my situation (too personal) other than to say I know how you feel, that's something I've had to put up with all my life.


 The seizure the day before was the cause of the "heavy breathing". Sore ribs/chest causing trouble breathing. All that was done was by the person who took the call was standard proceedure, which I can understand. This meant it was recorded & logged. Explanations had to wait until I got to the hospital.
Sight explained it better than words.



classic33 said:


> I'd tried to cancel the appointment that morning, *but the phone was put down on me*. When I got to the hospital, the person who'd hung up on me couldn't stop apologizing. *She thought it was a obscene/dirty call due to the heavy breathing* & had already filed a report.


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## classic33 (11 Oct 2012)

IF, he returns he will it seems see there are more dis-abled(some-one come up with a better way of putting that) people who cycle.

Penny bet says he might just return to look, but that he will not log on again. 2 pence says he'll not make any further posts, on this thread or start a similar.
This based on what has happenned elsewhere.


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## mcshroom (11 Oct 2012)

But to make a point you have not been banned DC

:


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## classic33 (11 Oct 2012)

mcshroom said:


> But to make a point you have not been banned DC
> 
> :


 Who's DC in all of this?


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## mcshroom (11 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> Who's DC in all of this?



Someone who isn't banned 

 - You are not banned *DR*


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## classic33 (11 Oct 2012)

Longshot said:


> Thanks for reminding me. I'm beginning to wish we had just drowned him in squirrels - it would have been a lot less effort.


Tunnel covered plus both ends & just in case a few favours called in
http://www.pcworld.com/article/262071/fbi_rolling_out_hi_tech_big_brother_monitoring_system.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2115871/The-CIA-wants-spy-TV-Agency-director-says-net-connected-gadgets-tran
http://www.dailydot.com/news/department-homeland-security-monitoring-report/sform-surveillance.html


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## Longshot (11 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> Tunnel covered plus both ends & just in case a few favours called in
> http://www.pcworld.com/article/262071/fbi_rolling_out_hi_tech_big_brother_monitoring_system.html
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2115871/The-CIA-wants-spy-TV-Agency-director-says-net-connected-gadgets-tran
> http://www.dailydot.com/news/department-homeland-security-monitoring-report/sform-surveillance.html


 

Ooooo, cool toys


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## classic33 (11 Oct 2012)

Longshot said:


> Ooooo, cool toys


 But not for those excluded due to being poor. Not that the poor are being excluded, from being watched of course!


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## disabled rider (11 Oct 2012)

I am trying a different tactic in writing this post, Since it required me to go to other pages to read as I wrote it. I used wordpad in windows. As result the format is different than others of my posts.
--------------------------------------
--------------------------------------
OK I believe this was the post I had promised and vowed to reply too.
This is a reply to the post Mr Jamie Quote"

" I've read all of this thread, please show me where you've explained why you need to ride on the sidewalk.
This is the vague comment I'm talking about, you don't explain why you're more at risk just say that you are.


Here you state the same "fact" again that you will get killed and an able bodied cyclist might not, but without any reasoning or evidence, that's not how a discussion works.

Q. Why with your self-professed good cycling ability are you personally more at risk than able bodied cyclists and in need of riding on the sidewalk?

I'm not trying to trip you up or pick an argument with you, but you absolutely need to be able to answer that question if you want to convince people to agree that you should cycle on the sidewalk. You've had 18 pages of replies and an incredible amount of tolerance from this forum. "
-------------------------
------------------------
When I use caps I am NOT shouting. I sue(wow had a dyslexic fart flipping of letters I meant to use "use" Point here is I do have dyslexia I just hide it well) here it to get the reader to pay attention to those particular words because If they don't the point is easily missed in which I am trying to make. When I shout I use "!!!!!!!!!!!""

I am also using double "----------------------------" as a means to separate different trains of thought to help keep the different points separate, people are having trouble following, when not recognizing the shift points in the topics pointed out in my posts.
-----------------------
----------------------
I am going to do two things reply to you and recap. There is a lot of stuff going on, claiming I am saying stuff I am not. And I am seeing a lot of refusal to see it from an Impaired riders view.

I have pointed out in the beginning, if you do NOT look at it from the impaired person point of view you, fall for the "normalized exclusion" and DO NOT SEE A PROBLEM.

Example of saying something I did not say poof I am gone for a few days and I come back and there is so much to read "POOF' you know like a magic act its there one moment and gone the next.
----------------------
----------------------

I have said it in previous posts, multiple times, about the reason for riding On the side walk.

I First said it in post #77 chapter 1 "about myself"

Quote:"1. hearing loss, low end of moderate to profound. Moderate is 1/2. Profound is deaf. wearing in excess of $3000 in defective hearing equipment. "exclusion factor" is the reason I am being forced to wear expensive defective garbage."

Quote;"4. heart defect had heart surgery when was 26. Food additives and other chems used on food was the trigger to make this a big issue for me."

Quote:"5. Atypical panic attacks This was caused by the torture and abuse by my peers due to number 1 and 2 above. I have had bodily arson done to me for the sole purpose to entertain a bully who was bored. Another incident broke my right arm for same reason as first. The actions were linked to numbers 1 and 2. Fact is, many people get insecure when they feel someone they perceive as inferior is doing better than they are. (class standing in top 1/5 despite 2 major impairments, and exclusion, in point of fact)"

How I interact with people when a conflict happens, such as a close call with death, other aspects of the Chapter 1 come into play like the C-PTSD

Now when I been talking about riding side walks I been only using the "hearing impairments" disability. because I figured it was the easiest for people to follow when showing examples.

And suing the wheelchair and second floor scenario as well because it was an easy one to follow.

I been leaving out the "Atypical panic" in the discussion about which impairments should be considered when adapting policy to allow to be used in side walks, in my case (it coincides with the hearing loss), because most people have no clue what it means, and it is hard for those who have never experienced it, to understand its implication. It took the doctor, to explain this to me, I understood it, because I am the one who was suffering from it. I could directly relate to his definition of it. "Atypical panic ". Its not the same as a standard "panic attack", Panic attacks are not the same as anxiety attacks.

OK I had pointed out that chapter 1 was To establish a "point of perspective" "A PERSON WITH IMPAIRMENTS" such as the two I quoted just above.

This next point is not an insult to the readers it a point about my "naivity".
I was naive, to think, that the readers were going to understand how my impairments impact and relate to cycling, and understand what I wrote previously and actually look at my posts from the perspective of a person with impairments. Example, you yourself missed it, when I have already explained several times Why I am on the sidewalks. Like the mirror discussion.

post #127 was using the assumption people were reading from an impaired person perspective. about WHY you allow impaired people to use the sidewalks. MY naivity that people would do as I asked..
------------------------

I have also discussed the discrimination" Is in the level of risk vs able bodies vs impaired people. Your "FAVORING" the able bodied, by "forcing all" cyclist onto the road. Why the able body have a MUCH LOWER RISK OF GETTING KILLED. That is the "Favoritism". So to remove the discrimination, would lead to "modifying policy" to reduce the level of risk for the impaired person to bring it down to a level more on par with those able bodied on the roads, BY ALLOWING the IMPAIRED PERSON on the sidewalks. (Those that can not see this, it is the normalization of the exclusion I am referring too, Point here is its so normalized, your blind to this point about discrimination)

I am really going to dumb down this example to make a point.
to follow the law all people cycle the street. That includes a "TOTALLY BLIND" person is forced to ride the street, too. (There is some cutting edge tech out there, that would make it possible, for a blind person to ride very slowly. it adapts GPS and voice command auditory signaling that a blind person follows exactly.)

Now consider the risk of the able body person getting killed vs the blind person, getting killed.
If you don't see the difference in the level of risk of getting killed, then your not looking at it from the impaired persons perspective. 

Now swap out the blind with the deaf. You have me.

------------------

The point about the mirror was it does not mitigate enough of the risk of getting killed, to be more on par with able bodied risk of getting killed. Just like the GPS tech does not tell a blind person there is a car right behind them ready to run them over. Not being able to hear the traffic cumming so not knowing when to look in the mirror.

------------------
------------------

My sharing of personal information wasn't meant to be a topic point, It wasn't complaining, it was meant to establish a perspective, from an impaired person view. In other words follow the thread in my shoes. AS an "IMPAIRED PERSON"

If you had been You would have picked up on, why I am on the sidewalk and not the street.

I reread, I don't know how I could have been anymore clear.

-----------------
-----------------

Now to answer you question near the bottom.

I said my 6+ years of zero accidents is "RIDING ON THE SIDEWALKS" Following PED RULES. NOT STREET, USING STREET RULES.

I also discussed That I can not give you statistics on the level of risk of able bodies vs disabled.

1. Not enough disabled riders to do the comparisons too.

2. The data collected would most likely not contain facts, Like the person is legally blind , or deaf, or had epilepsy episode, when accidents are recorded. (example of this point. When I had heart surgery, they did not put in the file, that I had been injured from the defibrillator, that still causes pain to this day. in report it says heart surgery was total success with no problems.) 

3 You have to look at WHO is collecting the data as well. Were they, able bodies or impaired, for example. If it was impaired, they may have added the data about the persons impairments. which would of lead to a more accurate statistics. Example of my point I was in 1 minor fender bender in my early years when driving, only cracked their tail light. The able bodied police officer left out the facts that the car, I rear-ended, tail lights were covered in dirt and made it very difficult to see when your looking right at them, He also left out the fact I was hearing impaired. He also left out the fact the driver did not have his foot on the brake, while waiting to do a 90 degree, left turn, across another lane of traffic. (It is required to keep your foot on the brake when stationary to inform following drivers your not moving. He also left out fact I HONKED. 

Now if that had been me, in the car in the front and able body in behind I would not have heard the honking to alert me. That would have been a contributing factor being I could not hear the horn. Point is the police officer being able body did not even consider that putting the fact I had hearing loss in the report was a mistake of leaving relevant facts out.

Because of the omission when they try to do statistics involving impaired drivers vs able bodied driver the statistics is wrong because vital facts were left out. The number of accidents involving the impaired people is much lower than in actuality.

My proof is going on a case by case basis. because I know I can not get accurate statistics.

I was using my own example, that involved me, to prove the point of greater risk. talking about mirrors etc and my not having any accidents vs able bodied aquatance I know. etc. DON'T QUOTE THIS POINT IT IS OUT OF CONTEXT go to the original posts where I have pointed this out. (i was on the side walks while he was on street.

I also pointed out I have had my mirror destroyed by passing car when I use to ride on the street before I went to the sidewalks.
-----------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------
I cannot hear the traffic, mirrors do not help me. So When I find a big truck right on top of me, so unexpectedly, less than 1ft to my left, I have a MAJOR ATYPICAL PANIC ATTACK. Which can at times, cause me to jump in unintended directions, Not to mention instant lethargy, that can last for hours, which makes it hard to stay upright. Then compound the problem, I have "defective heart" that still has other issues besides what the surgery corrected and is currently undiagnosed.

When you put all that together, I will get killed, NOT might get killed, If I try to ride the streets

When I move to the sidewalk USING PED RULES the above does not happen. Thus accident free, The risk to me getting killed drops to a more on par to the risk able bodied people riding the street.

------------------------------------

I know I jump in unexpected directions, from the time I lived in Adult foster-care, while I waited for the outcome of my Disability case from SSA. Even with hearing aids I could not hear people move around me even when they are making noise. I find them right next to me behind my perferial vision, when I turn they are right there, causing me to jump, the jump is exaggerated by the "Atypical panic attack."

I live alone since getting disability insurance. 6+ years ago

-----------------------------------

Knowing this fact There is a high probability and actually have it happen, several times while riding, If I am on the street on ice I will fall into traffic, happened on low traffic road, and I wasn't injured. Remember I also mentioned my balance is not great off center. Jumping can put me off center suddenly. weaving etc to try and compensate, drivers not giving me the mandatory 3 ft is not going to be expecting this. 

------------------------------

If you look at what I described from a ABLE BODIED PERSPECTIVE, It looks like total irrationality, lying, delusional, mentally ill, etc.

When you put yourselves in my shoes and look at it through my eyes, NOT using your own experiences but mine. Everything I have said makes perfect sense and is quite rational.

That HELP oldspice keeps insisting I go get, I already have. I been running the stuff, I been writing about here past HIM. See he sees it from my perspective (And he is a PHD psychologist), He been with me for more than 6 years. He can put himself in my shoes, with my "entire history" at his finger tips. He can clearly see the discrimination, I can tell by the tears in his eyes.

See one of the cognitive behavioral therapy steps is to cross check your facts and information with an outside source (outside your head, like another rational person) To ensure that your thought process is not irrational / delusional.

He does not agree on every point I make, Which I why I trust him and let the things people say here go PARTLY through one ear and out the other-side. Especially those who insist there is something wrong with me and try to give the WRONG label. One of the key things like what oldspice was saying was ignoring the fact I already said I KNOW what is wrong with me.
The whole mental illness thing is another can of worms regarding the NORMALIZATION as well.
Like not wanting to distinguish between mental illness and psychological injury. Because admitting the difference has a fundamental change on how we perceive certain issues regarding health of the brain. I do not want to get into this debate here this one belongs in a mental health forum and does not have any relevance to this discussion other than establishing point of perspective from a person with impairments. I clearly pointed time and again that it is about establishing perspective not establishing point of topic about analyzing about everything wrong with me.

---------------------------
----------------------------
Then Why am I here? I have Talked about that too. See I am not unique nor alone when It comes to policy doing MORE HARM to people with impairments and that doing more harm is the discrimination, The difficulty lies with HOW NORMALIZED the discrimination is.

Normalized basically means people are blind to it and can't see how discriminatory their actions or lack of actions are.

Ask yourself, why people no longer use the term "DEAF AND DUMB" openly any more unless they seriously want to be sued.

Way back, it was normalized term and used back then on daily basis, in a manor that was not seen as discrimination.

But once we shown how widely it was used and disproved it, It became a "CLASSIC" of what not to do. Because it was finally cleared that in fact it was discrimination, and that the "NORMALIZATION OF IT' had been devastating for those with hearing impairments in their exclusion of education and participating in society. It had gotten better, but is still a big problem.
The big difference is it is not so "normalized" as it once was. But then that depends on who's perspective your using. This is proof that the normalized discrimination is still live and well http://articles.boston.com/2012-06-...ity-rights-education-disabilities-act-netflix If it had not been a problem still, it would not have gone to court in the first place.

The equality act isn't any better the Atco vid previously posted is proof of that. They were acting on instructions from the government within the equality act guidelines. If it hadn't been for a flaw in the policy the Atco incident would not have happened. The company was just an escape goat. It looks bad if it is shown so early after the act was put in place that there is a big flaw with it.

I had tried to address that in the disability post to "V" I think real early when he asked if I knew of the medical and social definition of disability. and mentioned the Equality act.

No one is perfect and I pointed that out about myself in "chapter 1" post. By sharing the impairments, I openly admitted I am not perfect, If anything Far from it.
----------------------------------
----------------------------------

Here is something to think about especially, those accusing me of complaining. Was Martin Luther king complaining? No he said there was a problem he went into detain what that problem was he also reflects his personal issue to show how the problem impacted the African American people. By using a specific personal examples.

Things will never change unless someone stands up and says this is not right and fight for change to correct the wrong doing.

A very common tactic used to shut the person up, Chase them out of town(banning or telling them to go elsewhere), to accuse them of complaining, say there is nothing wrong, except with the person themselves, etc. There are MANY reasons this happens, Like "well if I got to suffer, so should you", or "I really don't want to see that my actions or inaction is doing harm", "I like how things are now", on and on. The 3 reasons I have listed, I have seen in the way some people posted in this thread.

Disabled rider
OK this PS is absolutely not open for discussion.

I am now about 10 pages behind it is going to take me some time to catch up, and to compound the problem, I have other stuff to address like getting policy locally changed, to accommodate equal access, Acquiring a new firearm for hunting, get my winter Homemade wear etc, ready for cycling.(like Homemade winterized wrap around chaps, with crotch/butt windbreak/insulation, homemade wool/fake fur hat, with big dog ears and face flap. 

FYI I been around firearms since birth, My mother started out as a caretaker for the local firearm clubs range. I been trained in proper use and safety, and have endorsements on my drivers license, I have had access to loaded firearms , like military pistols, 12ga, 22, BB, 30-06 etc, even through the roughest parts of my life. I have not once thought of using the firearm in any fashion not legal.
I brought FYI up because I know at-least 1 person is going to freakout irrationally, if I did not post the FYI, hearing that I am looking for a hunting firearm 12ga. Who knows they will probably still freak out . Oldspice I am NOT on the forbidden list of possessing firearms. To ban me you would have to ban almost every single police officer, military personnel, body guard etc. Only reason I do not already have one in hand, is I had to give the ones I had to extended family, (no I can not get those back), when I went in to Adult foster care, I could not take them with me, It wasn't anything to do with me, it was fear that other people there, who were on the banned list, would get their hands on one. Like schizophrenic.


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## black'n'yellow (11 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> I have other stuff to address like getting policy locally changed, .


 
Here's some free advice - stop wasting your time here and just focus on that.


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## TheDoctor (11 Oct 2012)

Christ on a bike.
DR, if you've got any kind of a point to make will you just get on and make it?
I've known entire seasons that haven't gone on as long as you.
25 pages of self indulgent tosspottery and I'm losing the will to live...


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## Oldspice (11 Oct 2012)

What they said


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## colly (11 Oct 2012)




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## classic33 (12 Oct 2012)

3391 word post and nothing said. But thats nowt new.

Disabled rider, Strongly suggest that you re-read the posts numbered below. Read, learn and learn what is said in them.
Also read what is not said in them, it should help in working out what was actually said.
#368
#378
#380 Explain why its not discriminating #380
#394 Requires a direct & simple answer Yes or No. Has a direct bearing on this thread & whether it continues
#401
#416
#417 Strongly suggest you read this.
#422
#427
#430
#436
#476

This is not the first place you have posted, by your own admissision. Other places were checked as well, some of those brought up information that hasn't been posted on here. I have my reasons for not putting it in place. Not all that information is on the internet. Some has come from phonecalls, questions asked & the answers written down.

I am a cyclist that has a dis-ability, you can read how it affects me if you actually read the posts, instead of skimming it, picking & choosing which bits you like, which bits you don't.
I am not willing to sit on my backside, bleating that the world owes me a living & that I should be exempt from any law I don't like. You on the other hand prefer to sit on your backside, demanding that the law be changed to suit your requirements.

You have now brought the blind into the equation. Other than the one cyclist who appeared on Stan Lee's Superhumans, have you actually seen a blind person ride a bike That is how daft your argument is becoming. I've been on the back of a tandem, as a stoker, to a blind rider. A blind rider in full control of where they were going.

If as you are now claiming you will be re-applying, for a firearms licence, you will be aware that that application can be objected against. It can also be turned down on the advice of nearly every Federal Agency.

One major difference between yourself & the police, military & federal agents is that they are carrying their firearms as part of their work. You are seeking it for "sport/recreational" use. Therefore the ban would not as you incorrectly point out have to apply to them as well.

Deaf & dumb is still used as is deaf mute. Deaf is down to hearing loss Mute is down to loss of speech. You however have turned what is a description of an impairment into an insult. Yet you see nothing wrong in doing so. Please explain your reasoning behind this?

Worth noting the following
_"Complaints that a program, service, or activity of the Minnesota Department of Transportation is not accessible to persons with disabilities should be directed to Bruce Lattu at 00-1-651-366-4718."_
Have spoken to his department & they say they cannot deal with individual cases such as this where I am not the person making the complaint. That is your job. You have now been pointed in the direction you need to travel, whether you chose to is up to you & you alone.


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## classic33 (12 Oct 2012)

Worth checking, just to see if they are!
http://www.ehow.com/how_8292214_being-monitored.html


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## Pat "5mph" (12 Oct 2012)

DR is a litigation lawyer writing up his phd: this thread is his dissertation!


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## classic33 (12 Oct 2012)

Martin Luther King Jr. had a dream:
_"I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed - we hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."_
He was standing for the rights of others more than himself. You are putting yourself first. Do not knock what he stood for by trying to place yourself in the posistion he was.
You are self serving. He was fighting for the rights of more than one man and he lost his life doing so.

_"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." _(Theodore Roosevelt, “Citizenship in a Republic”.)


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## classic33 (12 Oct 2012)

Pat "5mph" said:


> DR is a litigation lawyer writing up his phd: this thread is his dissertation!


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## classic33 (12 Oct 2012)

Oldspice said:


> What they said


Something you're not saying
_"That HELP oldspice keeps insisting I go get, I already have. I been running the stuff, I been writing about here past HIM. See he sees it from my perspective (And he is a *PHD psychologist**), He been with me for more than 6 years. He can put himself in my shoes, with my "entire history" at his finger tips. He can clearly see the discrimination, I can tell by the tears in his eyes."_

*A cyclist seeing a trick cyclist, what next


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## on the road (12 Oct 2012)

Oh I get it, he's in some kind of institution and he's trying to convince his psychologist he's sane


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## Oldspice (12 Oct 2012)

I think you need to change Psychologist as the one you have is not doing you a jot of good, and considering in one of your posts you said that you don't deal with the health care service because there against you (or something like that..far to much tosh to trawl through) how can you be seeing this psychologist for over six years?
and if they keep on crying you really need to change.

PS I thought you were against the government so is this PHD person doing it for free or are you paying? are you not concerned about who has access to your records? Is this person a real practicing doctor or just a chap you know?


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## mr_hippo (12 Oct 2012)

As far as I can see, disabled rider is partially deaf, unspecified heart problem, has panic attacks and prefers to ride on the sidewalk, am I right so far?
If Classic 33 does not mind, I will use him in this example. We live not too far away and have known each other for years. I have found out there is a new cafe open, down by the river and about 30 miles away so I phone him up and ask him if he wants to go on Sunday. He does not want to go with me so has to think of an excuse, we have all been there, have we not? One 'excuse' that he will not give is "I am an epilectic and may have a fit" Turn the tables around and one of my excuses will not be "I am deaf and I stutter".
Disabled rider, you have to learn to adapt, stop complaining and learn to turn disadvantages into advantages. I did. How? A lot of people who are bullied in school find a safe haven at home but my bullying continued at home so my escape was the bike and 53 years later I am still pedalling! Other posters on here have similar stories.


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## CopperCyclist (12 Oct 2012)

Main problem is your reasons why it is 'safe' to cycle on the pavement apply equally to persons of no disabilities. If its allowed for you, why not them also?


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## disabled rider (12 Oct 2012)

V for Vengedetta said:


> The fact is your attitude towards others is appalling and your attitude towards yourself is even more so. It is a waste of time to be angry about your disability. You have to get on with life and other people with disability's such as Stephen Hawkins haven't done badly, and there is no reason why you could not achieve either. People won't have time for you if you are always angry or complaining.
> ​​


 
Yea I know I have quoted the same post for the second time. this post focuses on the second part.
This post is not open to discussion to anyone other than "V" anyone quoting or posting regarding this post other than "V" I will ignore the post response.

Hey "V" It ever occur to you, I wasn't like this once upon a time? That experiences of "exclusion" has angered and changed my view of how, I see people, when I very rarely, see their good side and mostly see there abusive side? (not to do with how I choose to see it, it is their actions, Like out right Lying to your face). Out right discriminating and they even openly admit it to your face, Then Laugh at you because of your lack of power to stop it. That just maybe there is a REAL injustice occurring, that Could not be addressed Due to a corrupt system that permits such injustice.?

When I read this portion of the post, what comes to mind and aptly describes it from my perspective: I should let them hit me in the face and only look at it positively and say thank you for hitting me in the face, do it again. While thinking to myself that being hit in the face is a good thing, and that is all I deserve and is right in the world.

Don't confuse trying to expose injustice with complaining. They can sound similar.

You mistaken, where my anger lies, it is not my disability I am angry about, I have learned to cope with it, and excel to be better than many of my peers, its the "EXCLUSION" committed by the employers who refused to hire me because of the impairments that anger me. This is NOT irrational thinking either. I have professionals and lawyers telling me this. BEFORE I BECAME BITTER , When I still believed I had a chance and wanted to earn my own way through life is when I was being excluded. My impairments was not stopping me. EMPLOYERS WERE.
It is NOT a complaint its a fact. Attitude wasn't the issue at the time. I conducted my interviews as I should, Presentable clothing and hygiene, Look them In the eye, be honest, present a resume, all the things recommended in trainings I been through.. I wouldn't lie. I refused, to compromise my moral and ethical integrity. 

Your mistake is your assuming this bitterness was present, when I was being turned down with lies and outright discrimination. WHICH i could NOT fight against. Employment Lawyers, Themselves said it was classic discrimination, but their hands were tied. Due to the way the system was corrupted.

Seriously how the heck do you look at being discriminated against by exclusion on such a massive scale, That is damaging your health and quality of life, making it impossible for you to take care of yourself responsibly and stay positive? A realist would be mad as hell. And try to undo the injustice.

My current attitude would change if employers in general would be inclusive and not try to abuse or exclude, to save a buck, thinking that due to impairments, we should not get the same wage as everyone due to perceived inferiority..

But then My not working or job seeking isn't even the issue here. I currently get the disability insurance due to exclusion, which impacts how I interact with people. I refuse to cow over to people who think I am inferior.

Now just so you know, people that treat me fairly, at say farmers market and such, do not see this anger, except when I talk about how the employers were excluding. I had offers, to join them, on their farms, if I were to loose Disability insurance and such. I don't work for them due to lack of transportation to get there. Then, unless I live with them, I would not get paid enough to survive on. Most of the small farms can't afford to pay full cash wages. Room and board and shared meals is the bulk of the pay.

The Psychologist, I see does not agree with you about the so called attitude being the reason for my unemployable status, you are claiming That makes me unemployable. I have shared absolutely everything with him, Face to face weekly for 6+ years.. Including what I talk about on here. He has also been there before the bitterness/ anger set in. He KNOWS the actual circumstances in which lead to my unemployable nature. He has clearly expressed to me its not my fault, Early on, I thought it was Mine, That it was something I did. He opened my eyes it wasn't my actions..

There is another advantage my psychologist has over you, He gets to see my whole body language, You just get text, Body language, tone of voice says a lot text can't. I do at least half my communication or more using body language, Mainly as an adaptation to compensate for my hearing loss. A form of sign language. OK off color joke If you have seen the movie "5th element" With Bruce Willis. When the girl with the orange hair using body language while speaking an alien language. right after she falls into Willis's cab from above. That aptly describes me in regards to body language parody. That body language says a whole lot more than any spoken or written communication. body language = high definition, text/speech = analog.
Here is example but I do not use ASL "American Sign language" 
View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQ9ALKp6WLk
and 
View: http://vimeo.com/13608400
The second vid I can read it , signing it I am at a loss Watch his expressiveness Face, body posture etc. I do that , but I can not do that here. In the end there is too much your missing to make an accurate assessment via text. alone.. I also am speaking with my body language while writing these posts. Personally I wish they had a few thousand more smileys to the available list to build a visual story to show complex expressive emotions. to help put text in to context.

Disabled rider
PS then I am not sure how my life turned in to the focal of the topic when I had expressively pointed out that my personal example was meant to establish a point of perspective. and to show how the exclusion took place. Having my background Criticized was never my intention when starting the thread. Then again maybe I do know, It. Has to do when people try to analyze me and fail at it miserably. And then I have an instinctive feeling to step in and try to correct it. In the past when I ignored such comments, People started to seriously gang up on me making all of these "WRONG assumptions based on bad info given by people making a bad analysis of my background, Instead of focusing on the thread topic.In the process destroying any credibility I might of had.

Thread focus is suppose to be how policy causes exclusion of a protected class. And how allowing such policies to continue has a devastating effect on those with impairments. And saying that your communities does not have such policies is just plain wrong. The Atco incident is good example of the equality act failing to do as intended.


And this does apply to cycling.

V i Have not had a chance to read much beyond this point, If you had replied to the first reply to your post I have not seen it yet. when quoting it for a second time.


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## Oldspice (12 Oct 2012)

DR you don't know the trials and tribulations that anyone has gone through in life. What they are currently dealing with or the things that have happened to them could render yours, mine or anyone else's insignificant.

I wouldn't wish my life on anyone as it truly is a horror show so bad, not even 'HBO' would show it. I still carry on living, i think it's because i'm curious to see what happens next

PS Could explain why i have more faith in animals than people


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## hobbitonabike (12 Oct 2012)

If you are not able to physically ride on the road then why on Gods sweet green earth do you think you have a right to be on the pavement??? This is for pedestrians...they do not want to be flattened by some gun toting cyclist who thinks he should ride there because he cannot safetly do so in the correct place for his mode of transport!! You are now excluding them because they fear for their safety as you do on the road. I am all for fighting for your rights but you also have to be part of society and if you start lecturing people as you do they write you off as an peanut and exclude you. Not because you're disabled but because of your superiority complex. Oh and if you start dictating what people can and can't comment on you are blocking people having their opinion. A debate is a discussion with two sides not us giving our opinion and you telling us where we went wrong!! I suggest you spend some time and effort learning how to converse in society. And don't start spouting all the I can't because of my background rubbish...If you say you can't to everything then you never will!!! I watched a video last night of a man who climbed Mt. Killimanjaro on his hands as he had no legs. I suggest you find out about him...his attitude was amazing.


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## classic33 (12 Oct 2012)

Mr Hippo. No offense taken. Anyway I might also fall in the river, because I suffer from epilepsy. Not have a fit/seizure causing me to fall in. Just the fact that I have this dis-ability that very few see, might put me at a greater risk of falling in.
I don't use the word epilepltic, I watch my wording in case I offend someone else, describing my condition. I'm living with it & I've to watch I don't offend others saying what I suffer from/with. Maybe someone else here could do the same.

As for the opening poster, questions were asked that remain unanswered. Unanswered I'd say because we both know the answers, if answered truthfully.

A number of riders on here complain about the sign language that is used against them. Universal sign language almost.. But not having met anyone who didn't come from this planet, I'm accepting the saying as it is used.

You are not sure why questions about your health have been asked. Take a look at the thread title & the questions at the start of this thread. You worded them, not me or anyone else posting here, and you disagree with it/are not happy with it.

Deafness is not a reason to seek any special treatment, just as epilepsy is not a reason(in my case). Get adjusments made, yes, so as to make it safer. But not the system(s) changed to suit myself. What would happen if I didn't like the new way of dealing with it at a later date. Start again maybe.

You never once mentioned the Equalities Act, you called it the DDA. Stop putting words in your own mouth at a later date. You were unaware of the Equalities Act, just like a load of things your information is outdated. I found more out in two hours than you appeared to have in six years. Six that magical number, six times you've mentioned it, sofar.

If your health is not to be called into question or not part of what this is all about then you cannot for the purpose of this thread define/class youself as disabled on health grounds. That just leaves the poor part.

If you feel you are unable to ride on the road, then the advice is simple, don't. Also don't take your riding onto the pavement. You are using the same tactics as used by car drivers, as descibed by yourself, against those on foot on the footpath. Something which is illegal, regardless of ability. Your own state laws back me up on this point..

Get off, push & shut up. Your other option is to learn to ride your bike, Which your own State Police have agreed is a road vehicle, on the road. Which is why your neighbours want you there. You are causing them the same trouble on the footpaths as motor vehicles are causing you on the road. They are not claiming discrimination, they just want the law as it stands, upholding to protect them against you.

Before you ask what questions need answering or why don't I post what I have on here. Consider what that would mean. This thread & susequent threads, in which you use the same methods to get the answers you want to hear, will result in them being locked as well. Your phd freind, lives/lived five-six blocks away. Just under twice the distance to the library you went to the other night. But not in the same direction.

*I remind you,you have made the statement that this is not the first place you have posted this subject. Those were checked, as were links given in those, both by yourself & others. You don't like the answer you are being discriminated against.*


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## disabled rider (12 Oct 2012)

CopperCyclist said:


> Main problem is your reasons why it is 'safe' to cycle on the pavement apply equally to persons of no disabilities. If its allowed for you, why not them also?


 
YOUR missing the point. IT IS NOT ABOUT THEM being on the side walk It is to reduce the Impaired persons risk of getting killed to be more on par with the able bodies riding on the street. And eliminating the discrimination of favoritism.

What you said Is not from an impaired persons perspective Your comment was clearly written as an able bodied, Your failing to comprehend the level of risk of a able vs impaired when both use the street. The person with impairment FAR OUT WEIGHS in the level of risk of getting killed vs able. And your failing to see the discrimination by forcing the people with impairments to use the streets. when there is a way to reduce that level of risk to be more closely with that of able on the street.

The change of policy is to reduce the risk so they are closer to the same level, They are not going to be exact..

Yes able on sidewalk reduces their risk too as long as they follow ped rules, but then that isn't the point of this thread. Besides if you have too many cyclist on the side walks then you have an over crowding issue, Which is one of the reasons cyclists are on the street to begin with.

Your just trying to justify the discrimination, by trying to apply a "reversal tactic" and that is simply wrong. The "reversal tactic"
was used in the past and was not accepted well.

They tried that back with the deaf and dumb debacle. The modification of policy is to have an almost 1 on 1 teaching environment for deaf/ hard of hearing students in schools, to try to give them a more level playing field in education as their hearing counterparts.Then parents with children who had perfect hearing tried to block it by say why should they get 1 on 1 but not our children Our children could benefit just as much. (I was in 3rd grade when this was kicking in to high gear, and I joined my first hearing impaired class.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_deaf_education_in_the_United_States http://www.wvdhhr.org/wvcdhh/directories/07toc/pubschob.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individuals_with_Disabilities_Education_Act During this is when the reversal tactic was tried and failed. Here is the quote from the IDEA wiki "Providing mandated educational and related services is expensive and reduces schools' ability to educate regular education students[4" "See here this is when they had tried the reversal tactic" as a means to justify the exclusion in there attempt to not have to fund it..  This is very similar to your point about able on sidewalk, there is a limited amount of resource allocation (physical space). Your saying that able bodied would benefit too goes in line with the red part above . School reversal tactic failed in the end They still had to comply with NOT discriminating by exclusion. .

It came down to cost and space as why the hearing students could not get 1 on 1 and there is stuff the deaf and hard of hearing needed to learn besides the material the hearing students needed. Like speech therapy, word auditory recognition etc.

Your tactic is exactly what they tried then. "reversal tactic" Those who do not remember or study history is prone to repeat it.
The reversal tactic is also looked at as a shame on you for using tactic.

Then there is the factor as it stands the able body people are not being discriminated, able body people is NOT a protected class. Impaired riders are by the amount of undue risk over able bodied of getting killed and they are in a "protected class."

Then there is who has greater power. who can defend themselves better, etc. you give greater protection to the weaker group in policy to make up for that disparity.

If there was space on the walks for everyone I would say go for it. Then reality, in many business districts, it does not have the space for every single rider on the walks when peds are out in force.

disabled rider.


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## Oldspice (12 Oct 2012)

Your reply to 'CopperCyclist' makes absolutely no sense You never answerd his question.


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## classic33 (12 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> *YOUR missing the point. IT IS NOT ABOUT THEM being on the side walk It is to reduce the Impaired persons risk of getting killed to be more on par with the able bodies riding on the street. And eliminating the discrimination of favoritism.*
> disabled rider.


Explain how a state law that requires any cyclist, regardless of ability, to have to treat their road vehicle the same as any other road vehicle, can be classed as dicriminating against anyone.

You are again calling for equality through discrimination.
Something that others have fought for over the years for others, not themselves. You likened yourself to Martin Luther King. Martin Luther King Jr. was the man with "the dream", "the vision" whereby all men are created equally. You on the other hand just want special treatment.

And since you have already daid your health is not part of the problem & not open for discussion, From this point forward make no further reference to it.

I speak has someone who has a dis-ability, so by your own standards I'm qualified to speak on the problem


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## classic33 (12 Oct 2012)

Oldspice said:


> Your reply to 'CopperCyclist' makes absolutely no sense You never answerd his question.


 He doesn't do questions remember!


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## Longshot (12 Oct 2012)

DR - for someone who is deaf, you're surprisingly fond of the sound of your own voice. 

The trouble is, very few people are listening any more so you are wasting your breath. You will put this down to a lack of interest or understanding in the plight of the disabled cyclist. You'd be wrong. It's down to you and the way you communicate with others. You pick an inappropriate forum (ie UK rather than US) to air your views. You lay down rules about how people should respond to your posts - this is a PUBLIC forum and you need to understand what that means. You witter on and on about irrelevant stuff that is not germane to your real cause. You chastise people for 'not getting it'. You brook no argument or criticism - you won't listen even to helpful and constructive points.

You said early on that you've been kicked off three other forums. This is why.

As far as I can see it, you have a disability and you want special dispensation for it. I understand that and can sympathise with you in principle. It would appear that your Government (or State) believe that the dispensation you want is against the wider public interest. The needs of the few do not always outweigh those of the many. I'm sorry, but there you go.


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## Cyclopathic (12 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> I am trying a different tactic in writing this post, Since it required me to go to other pages to read as I wrote it. I used wordpad in windows. As result the format is different than others of my posts.
> --------------------------------------
> --------------------------------------
> OK I believe this was the post I had promised and vowed to reply too.
> ...


 
I see.


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## black'n'yellow (12 Oct 2012)

TheDoctor said:


> 25 pages of self indulgent _*tosspottery*_ and I'm losing the will to live...


 
possibly my favourite word on the entire thread....


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## Moss (12 Oct 2012)

Is there a definition for the Word - Tosspottery?


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## gary in derby (12 Oct 2012)

*This thread is cycling related just figured it out. its like a wheel! keeps going round and round and round and round BLAH BLAH BLAH.*


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## black'n'yellow (12 Oct 2012)

Moss said:


> Is there a definition for the Word - Tosspottery?


 
I may write a wiki entry for the word - if I do I will not provide an explanation - just a link to this thread..


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## Tigerbiten (12 Oct 2012)

My first post in this thread .......... 

DR.
If you want to be safer on the road have you thought about getting a trike.
I'm another dis-abled rider. 
On a two wheeled bike I'm not safe on the road but on three wheeled trike I am.

You can then go as slow as you like without the risk of wobbling into traffic. I dont like big lorries passing within a foot or so when I'm on the trike, but theres no risk of wobbling into the path. Also you can gear a trike a lot lower than a bike, less strain on your heart.

Because you ride something different passing traffic tends to give you more room. Also a trike rides a lot wider than a bike, so passing traffic tends to make a proper overtake and not just squeeze through a gap.


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## disabled rider (12 Oct 2012)

mr_hippo said:


> As far as I can see, disabled rider is partially deaf, unspecified heart problem, has panic attacks and prefers to ride on the sidewalk, am I right so far?
> If Classic 33 does not mind, I will use him in this example. We live not too far away and have known each other for years. I have found out there is a new cafe open, down by the river and about 30 miles away so I phone him up and ask him if he wants to go on Sunday. He does not want to go with me so has to think of an excuse, we have all been there, have we not? One 'excuse' that he will not give is "I am an epilectic and may have a fit" Turn the tables around and one of my excuses will not be "I am deaf and I stutter".
> Disabled rider, you have to learn to adapt, stop complaining and learn to turn disadvantages into advantages. I did. How? A lot of people who are bullied in school find a safe haven at home but my bullying continued at home so my escape was the bike and 53 years later I am still pedalling! Other posters on here have similar stories.


 
I have learned to adapt I have explained said adaptation, your example doesn't have anything to do with policy discriminating preventing say classic 33 from participating. . 

The correct example is you and classic 33 wants to meet there at the cafe, you actually go to cafe and when you try to enter, the cafe says NO classic 33 can't come in, because we are concerned that other patrons would be injured if classic 33 were to have a seizure. See classic 33 is more than capable of participating but the only thing is cafe policy that says classic 33 can't participate. Change the discriminatory policy to allow classic 33 in. This is the relevant example based on what this thread is about. And what I been trying to convey.

Your example was PURELY to make an excuse on classics part to not participate in something classic doesn't want to do. but is capable of doing. I see absolutely NOTHING in your example about any policies that forbids classic 33 from participating or puts classic 33 in undue danger vs able body people. 

Your point That I see is shut up and let society abuse you, that its all your fault and you have to take responsibility for societies wrong doing. and your not allowed to point out society wrong doing and ask others to correct their bad actions and behavior. And that your not allowed to modify or over turn discrimination, in order to remove it. 

I am going to assume you only read one post based on what you mentioned about particular impairments. by reading only that one post you took everything I am talking about out of complete context of its actual meaning. of what this thread is about.

I am not riding on the side walk because I want to, I am because If I don't, a Negligent driver will kill me no if and or buts. And I am having to break a discriminatory policy to do so.

You can not adapt if all options are taken away by exclusion or resource restriction. If I follow your recommendation and stop riding how am I going to get food , go to appointments, shop for other necessities? Cycling IS THE LAST OPTION AVAILABLE TO ME. If I can not get from point A to point B via cycle I can not care for myself. I am stating a simple fact here.

Also your telling me to adapt is in essence the medical model of disability, Your ignoring the social model the part where society is EXCLUDING by policy or infrastructure . forcing one to so called adapt to overcome a exclusion by society is in kin of discrimination and inflicting undue burden on to the person with impairments who not only has to deal with their impairments but also has to deal with how to get around the society exclusion. For the average person this is either extremely difficult to impossible. And thus left out in participating in society. wait if society had not excluded could the person with impairments participate? yes. If yes then its society wrong doing and responsibility to remove the exclusion factor.

and you just accused me of refusing to adapt is wasting 3000$ on total junk aids for hearing not enough? where is the line drawn of putting undue burden On a person with impairments. I have meet society more than 1/2 way It is time society step up and remove its discriminatory policy and do its less than 1/2 .

I am trying to point out the injustice, when did that turn into complaining?? what exactly have I said that you view as complaining?? From where I sit I have not been complaining. 

you really want to hear an example of complaining? why are you ganging up on me wa wa why won't you let me participate, wa wa wa I am going to tell mommy on you wa wa wa

There is discrimination happening and this is how its happening and this is how it is happening in my specific case as point of fact of how it discriminates. <<<----- is not complaining at all. It is showing a problem that exists and showing how it happens and effects real people by using your own personal example. I do not have anyone else to use example in my place. If I had been using someone else as an example then you would defiantly not be accusing me of complaining.

Now if this had been about scooters I have 10 or more people to use as examples from our building. And I can show discrimination towards them as well in other areas like the lack of clearing snow in the winter which is mandatory. to allow said people to move around town. If I had a scooter too and not use my own example you would not be accusing me of complaining or not adapting etc. Point of fact just because I am using my own example or talking about myself IS NOT complaining.

It is not complaining when your in a predicament of being blocked from physically taking care of yourself and your requesting to have policy changed so as to remove the barrier to allow that person to take care of themselves.

OK i can give a very specific example locally of cycling nature.

People informed the city that the MNDOT had blocked access to the local food shelf when It removed a vital intersection on main street. and installed a fence that prevented any poor cyclist from accessing the local food shelf.

There was absolutely NO WAY for the poor cyclist to adapt in order to get to said food-shelf legally. I was in on this. I stated the case similar to how I am trying to state the case here. on how the policy and physical barrier was discriminating our right to access the local food shelf. I wasn't complaining I wasn't alone others stated the case same or similar to how been stating the case.

In the end the city modified the physical barrier removing 1/4 mile of fence so we could cut across the main street highway. to get access to the food shelf and a large business district. we still have to cross illegally to get to the other side but at least we can actually get there. The police have been specifically told to leave cyclist alone when crossing in that area. I had a trooper physically watch me l2 weeks ago to see if I would cross there and not beyond that area where cycles were not permitted on the said highway.

Point I am trying to make Is I have ADAPTED as far as I can within the resources available to me. Your telling me to do do the physically impossible.

lets see what other ways could I adapt. 
1. I could ask friends for rides, oh wait no friends with cars 
2. I could buy a car. Oh wait I don't have the financial resources to even buy one.
3 I could use a cab or bus, Oh wait i can't do that for same reason as number 2.
4. Oh I could walk, OH wait I have skeletal problems that cause such extreme pain that I vomit and become bed ridden for 3 days. pain med don't help here due to physical damage while walking from the pinching of nerves on impact with each step.
5. I could ask the county for help, getting around, OH wait they don't have funding and kicked me off the assistance due to that lack of funding.
6. what is left? cycle. OH WAIT IF I RIDE THE STREET I WILL FOR FACT BE KILLED BY NEGLIGENT DRIVER
7 well what can I do about cycling to make it safer? use a mirror, OH WAIT I already almost got killed when a car ran into me and broke my mirror off.
8. How do I get away from said cars when mirror failed to help? sidewalks. OH wait I am not allowed there.
9 . If i can't ride sidewalks what is left? NOTHING!
10 hmmm wait I need to eat and every thing else. what left is there OH YEA why can't I ride on the sidewalk with the other allowed impaired people? I have impairments too That can severely compromise my safety, I have adapted and can't feasibly adapt any further legally..... HMMM wait why can't I ride the sidewalks, hmmmm OH the law itself is discriminatory in a manor that does harm to a protected citizen under civil right law. hmmmm remember the fence and intersection incident...... hmm is that any different than the discriminatory law,, They were both in violation of civil rights laws.... hhmm the fence was removed so as not to violate civil rights law, so it is reasonable to modify the state law by changing 1 or 2 words. from ambulatory impaired to sensortorial impaired which also includes hearing sight and other sensory impairments besides walking.
11. hmmm what to do hmmm how to adapt hhmmmm I have already said here, that I went before city council to modify the law and expand the type of impairments allowed to use the downtown business district sidewalks especially considering that my city was not set up to have cycles on the streets. To inform the city that in effect it is NOT ADA title 2 compliant in its policy of reasonable accommodation. when its policy harms a protected class under the ADA.
12. hmmm what else could I do to adapt........ request ADA complaint form from Department of Justice, So if city doesn't comply with title 2 and remove a policy barrier I can pursue it further to remove a discriminatory policy.
13... hmmmhmmmm wait I can't be the only one having this issue..... hhhmmmm CYCLING FORUM!!!! spread the word wake people up to the fact that a protected class is being actively discriminated against and encourage other communities to review their policies to ensure that their policies doesn't have similar violation of civil and human rights.
14hhmmm hhhmmm where do I go?? Google search cycling forums with high traffic that appeals to all walks of life.. WOH cycling-chat! caters to many types of riders not so specialized in one area, reaches a relatively large community.
That would be a good place to start to spread the word.
15.... hmmm ouch barely get started and being criticized and chased, long before I actually got started.
16... hhmmm I believe strongly in correcting injustice... stick around and take a risk hmm turning into a very big risk....
17... hhmmm seems people don't want to change society for the better based on comments being posted and ones already removed.
18.. hhmmm I really really dislike injustice. So I put up with people wanting to blame me for injustice that isn't even my fault.
Society imposed exclusion.
19.hmmm. I am seriously wondering why it seams that so many are refusing to look at it from another perspective. hhmmm LOTS of SPECULATIONS AS TO WHY.... In the end If I try to post them It will without a doubt piss people off.. hhmmm I have no intention of stooping that low.

20. what goes around comes around. If you insist that you tell someone to adapt when it is physically and financially impossible and make no attempt to change the policies that stopped that person from caring for them selves . You may wind up in his or her shoes one day What are you going to do? Sheesh If I had done something when someone by the name of disabled rider had pointed it out I would not have found myself in this predicament right now, of not being able to take care for myself for the sole reason of a society Discriminating policy or physical barrier stopping me because I have particular impairments..

Mr hippo if your not financially set till the day you die, you may find yourself in my shoes with no means of adapting other than your peddle powered wheels. As you age your body is breaking down if you don't die your going to have significant impairments. without a boat load of money your adaptation is extremely limited. Your going to have enough issues, You do not need society making it a 100 times more difficult by excluding you from taking care of yourself. do you?

I am not complaining here I am trying to get people like yourself to realize at this very moment people like me who are law abiding citizens are being forced to break discriminating laws just to survive. when it comes to cycling and other areas in life.

If I do not break the law, which I do not want to do, because it violates my sense of ethics and morals I will die from not being able to take care of myself. Fact

Why are you telling me to adapt, when I can not do that within the scope of civilized rule? Just because we have a rule does not always mean the rule is right or just. So why not change it? To make it just and fair? I have as much right to live as you do Do I not?

This is a fact for my situation, the only adaptation outside of having the rules modified to be fair and just is to become a criminal.
This is all that is left to me all other options is exhausted.

I seriously do not want to become a criminal. The fact of the matter is if society fails to stop its discrimination and exclusion I will have no choice in the situation. My will to live is so strong I will do what ever I have to do to survive, That includes stealing food and other necessities.

On behalf of myself and others that find themselves in my shoes I am getting on my knees and begging people like yourself to review your laws and barriers, remove or modify the ones that disproportionately harm protected classes such as people with impairments. I should not have to remind you that this is a social responsibility. You do know or remember what that is correct?

I have done mine and continue to do my share of social responsibility. I am not asking any more from you and others, that i have not done myself or currently am doing..

Disabled rider.


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## disabled rider (12 Oct 2012)

Tigerbiten said:


> My first post in this thread ..........
> 
> DR.
> If you want to be safer on the road have you thought about getting a trike.
> ...


 
Normally I would agree with you there is 2 factors I need to point out if you have not read the rest of the thread. SNOW

And our law forces me as far right as I can possible go a trike is too wide. YET IDIOT NEGLIGENT driver would try to fit in the same lane as I am in. especially the huge delivery trucks, at speed in access of 15 miles an hour or more difference. I would also be forced to pull over and stop frequently because we are not allowed to impede traffic. At that fast yet slow speed difference you would get pulled under not pushed away by a accident. the bumper or tire would ride up the rear left tire crush it in process and pull the rider under, mos likely killing rider in process. Drivers here are vicious and getting worse day by day.

Yea trike provides more stability. I know several trike riders in my community by sight They absolutely refuse to go on our streets with them especially when 98% of the drivers are negligent here. 

Personally I would prefer tadpole same issue as trike but add your lower to the ground and not everyone understands a flag on a pole warning. I like the tad pole better because it gives better turning control than a trike. and is even more stable. Then the cheapest been able to find is about $1200 which is about 700 more than I can afford. and it wouldn't solve the safety and inter issues.

Disabled rider

I am out tired uh been up all night


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## Amheirchion (12 Oct 2012)

hhhmmmm hhhmmmm hhhmmmm it looks like you've lost the plot with that latest rant hhhmmmm.

A tip for the next forum you try this on: write _everything_ up in word first, and post all your chapters in one go. This, along with not dictating how people can post will make your ramblings (and they are ramblings as you refuse to be succinct) easier for people to swallow.

I also have a question about your atypical panic attacks, if they cause you to jump in a random direction in an unsafe manner, then how are you safe in a pedestrian area on a bicycle? All it would take is someone appearing at your side unexpectedly and you may jump and crash in to them (avec deer and rifle  )causing harm to yourself and the poor pedestrian. I also question whether you would actually be safe to drive with this propensity for random muscle spams when surprised, a speedy overtake by someone could see you 'jump' in a random direction steering into the side if their vehicle or off the road.


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## hobbitonabike (12 Oct 2012)

Right ok...I am going to stay calm...deep breath....if a negligent driver is going to kill a cyclist I don't think they will wait for a passing disabled cyclist...if they are negligent they will flatten anybody, able or otherwise!!! Tge issue is driver education not changing the rules for everyone just to suit your individual needs! If you are not capable of riding a bike on the roads then you are a negligent cyclist and should be re educated or removed. If you want to use the pavement then walk...oh hang on you have another issue now that leaves you bedridden if you walk...use a wheelchair and drag the carcasses from your hunting trips behind it. I am not well off by any means and I grew up with a mum who had a serious heart condition...she didn't bitch and whine and she worked until she could no longer do so and then she lived within her means from her disability living allowance. She walked and had to stop every 50 yards or so due to breathlessness and she did this till the day she died at a young age of 63. I lost her too soon but am so proud of tge way she fought on without the need to make excuses or blame everyone else for her situation. If I ended up in your position then I would learn to work with the people in the society I live in without putting everyones back up. Your attutude frustrates me because although you have valid issues to deal with your attitude makes it impossible for anyone to help you. You have to adapt to your situation and stop expecting the world to change for you. Do this and you might find that you gain respect and therefore will do your cause more good.


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## Mugshot (12 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> _*And our law forces me as far right as I can possible go*_ a trike is too wide. YET IDIOT NEGLIGENT driver would try to fit in the same lane as I am in. especially the huge delivery trucks, at speed in access of 15 miles an hour or more difference. I would also be forced to pull over and stop frequently because we are not allowed to impede traffic. At that fast yet slow speed difference you would get pulled under not pushed away by a accident. the bumper or tire would ride up the rear left tire crush it in process and pull the rider under, mos likely killing rider in process. Drivers here are vicious and getting worse day by day.


16 pages ago it was pointed out that you are mistaken, I'll say that again *16 PAGES AGO*.
Let me remind you if I may.


Oldspice said:


> You never read the whole of part 4! These laws are not overly dramatic!
> 
> Subd. 3. * Clinging to vehicle.* Persons riding upon
> any
> ...


 
I've *bolded*, underlined and changed the colour of the sections which quite clearly show that your law does not simply force you as far right as possible, it may be you are misreading the law, it may be that you have not read the law fully or it may be that as it does not suit your agenda you choose to ignore it. Whichever it may be, you are wrong.


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## Cyclopathic (12 Oct 2012)

@ Disabledrider. What strikes me most from this entire thread is just how utterly self absorbed you are. You imply that you are saying all of these things for the benefit of others in your position but it does not ring true. You have been so amazingly specific about the precise conditions facing you that it would be virtually impossible for them to encompass anyone else.
I would just ask you to look back over the entire thread and observe how long and meandering most of your posts are and ask yourself what your reaction would be to someone who took so long and so many words to make a point. Would you indulge them and try to engage with them in a constructive way, whilst at the same time try to observe all of the conditions that they have laid down about how the thread is to be read, what is or isn't to be inferred when they are unclear about something and that is before you try to observe the conditions that have been put on how you are allowed to reply. 
*In short would you honestly be willing to put the time and effort into understanding some one else's thread as you have expected and demanded from us?*
I think that your points have been addressed here as well as they possibly could have been by people who have been very generous and indulgent with their time as well as being very tolerant and understanding of your, at times, rather abrasive and impatient tone. Most people recognise that you have issues with communication and possibly empathy, so have been receptive and understanding and have even tried in some instances to comply with the unreasonable conditions that you imposed on the thread.
*What I'd like to know is what you have learned from the previous 26 pages that is useful to you and what more do you realistically think it is possible to achieve by continuing in the same way?*


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## youngoldbloke (12 Oct 2012)

flippant comment (maybe) ......... if DR _was_ able to afford a car, do you think he'd want to be allowed to _drive_ on the pavement ........ ? It sounds like he would be at risk on the road.


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## mr_hippo (12 Oct 2012)

Disabled Deranged Cyclist.Are you related to Charles Bronson by any chance? You seem to have a Death Wish! You say that if you ride on the road that you will get killed but an able bodied cyclist may get killed.
Remember this is a UK forum and some US terms we are not familiar with such as 'food shelf'.Is it a place where people go and get either free or discounted food? Was the blocked access the only way into the food shelf? If it was how do other people get there? Find an alternative route; googlemaps is your friend!
You say "*I seriously do not want to become a criminal.* The fact of the matter is if society fails to stop its discrimination and exclusion I will have no choice in the situation. My will to live is so strong I will do what ever I have to do to survive, *That includes stealing food and other necessities*." So you do not want to break the law but you will!
If you are only one person, please explain the following "Sheesh If I had done something when someone by the name of disabled rider had pointed it out I would not have found myself in this predicament right now, of not being able to take care for myself for the sole reason of a society"


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## Tigerbiten (12 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> Normally I would agree with you there is 2 factors I need to point out if you have not read the rest of the thread. SNOW
> 
> And our law forces me as far right as I can possible go a trike is too wide. YET IDIOT NEGLIGENT driver would try to fit in the same lane as I am in. especially the huge delivery trucks, at speed in access of 15 miles an hour or more difference. I would also be forced to pull over and stop frequently because we are not allowed to impede traffic. At that fast yet slow speed difference you would get pulled under not pushed away by a accident. the bumper or tire would ride up the rear left tire crush it in process and pull the rider under, mos likely killing rider in process. Drivers here are vicious and getting worse day by day.
> 
> ...


 
SNOW:- With the correct studded tyres on my trike, I can cope with snow up to ~8" deep.
After that the cross member of the frame starts to collect snow.
But then again, I'm riding one of the lowest recumbent trike out, a Sprint model ICE trike.

If the drivers around you are so bad, how many cyclist death per DAY are there ..... 
You make it sound like all drivers go out with the intension of running down anything which gets in there way.
Also you make it sound if you slow a driver down by as little as 30 seconds, you'll get pulled over for slowing them down ........... 

I ride on all roads in the UK, bar the very busy main dual carriageway.
I probably done around 20,000 miles in the last 3 years on my trike and in that time I've only had 4-5 near misses in total.
I find that I get more room on the recumbent trike than if I was on an upwrong.


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## on the road (12 Oct 2012)

I would have thought a trike would be more stable in the snow than a two wheeled bike.


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## MrJamie (12 Oct 2012)

I think DR is failing to realise that we can comprehend his circumstances without agreeing with him. Ironically the problem seems that he can't view the bigger picture from society's perspective or even the disabled communities perspective just his own circumstance and needs, and that he's the one asking for favouritism and discrimination to his advantage.


disabled rider said:


> YOUR missing the point. IT IS NOT ABOUT THEM being on the side walk It is to reduce the Impaired persons risk of getting killed to be more on par with the able bodies riding on the street. And eliminating the discrimination of favoritism.
> 
> What you said Is not from an impaired persons perspective Your comment was clearly written as an able bodied, Your failing to comprehend the level of risk of a able vs impaired when both use the street. The person with impairment FAR OUT WEIGHS in the level of risk of getting killed vs able. And your failing to see the discrimination by forcing the people with impairments to use the streets. when there is a way to reduce that level of risk to be more closely with that of able on the street. <snip>


You're missing the point that it exactly is about everyone including yourself, not just what you personally want to happen even if we understand and sympathise. You talk about it like its a bigger social issue, but then restrict it to your own circumstances ignoring everyone else.

I wouldn't mind them turning a blind eye to responsible pavement cycling, but I also wouldn't want children on the pavement to have to dodge the momentum of a bike, trailer, adult male, deer corpse on the pavement especially controlled by a rider who cant look around himself.

In the UK at least the reason given when people get caught driving in the hard shoulder is that its for emergencies. Imagine theres a crash, the road behind is gridlocked, lots of people hurt and every second counts, the emergency services racing to respond, but look theres some guy riding a bike up the shoulder with bambis mum in a trailer and he cant look behind him to see the vehicles and can't hear them because hes deaf.


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## Pat "5mph" (12 Oct 2012)

Oldspice said:


> Your reply to 'CopperCyclist' makes absolutely no sense You never answerd his question.


DR means: only him and others with the same disability as him should be allowed to cycle on the pavements (dead deer included) or .... discrimination


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## classic33 (12 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> I have learned to adapt I have explained said adaptation, your example doesn't have anything to do with policy discriminating preventing say classic 33 from participating. .
> 
> The correct example is you and classic 33 wants to meet there at the cafe(*Point B, Point A* *being the departure point*), you actually go to cafe(*Point B*) and when you try to enter, the cafe says NO classic 33 can't come in, because we are concerned that other patrons would be injured if classic 33 were to have a seizure. See classic 33 is more than capable of participating but the only thing is cafe policy that says classic 33 can't participate. Change the discriminatory policy to allow classic 33 in. This is the relevant example based on what this thread is about. And what I been trying to convey.
> 
> ...


You wish to travel from point A to point B, in manner that suits you. However when someone else uses my dis-ability as an example of how it can affect my travel means you instantly shout foul. The description as given by another person is flawed. You have been concetrating soley on how your health, not open to discussion is being used to prevent you from travelling as you see fit.
You do not understand what my condition involves or even how it impacts on daily life. Therefore do not tell others that they are wrong, because you are right. You're not.
*Read the following before answering*



classic33 said:


> *Disabled rider, please read.*
> 
> If you want exclusion. I am not allowed to fly on any of the airlines over here, as I represent an "unacceptable risk to the crew, plane & passengers"(in that order) whilst the plane is in the air. Thats exclusion for you. Blatant and outright!








Pat "5mph" said:


> I never knew that





Pat "5mph" said:


> That's discrimination for sure. Any of us could get sick on a plane, so what?







classic33 said:


> Thats due to the epilepsy. A fit/seizure whilst the plane is in flight would require an immediate emergency landing. Normal restraint methods that can be used on an aircraft are not allowed.


 
Classic33.
Maybe time to start posting that information that will end this.


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## Andy_R (12 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> You wish to travel from point A to point B, in manner that suits you. However when someone else uses my dis-ability as an example of how it can affect my travel means you instantly shout foul. The description as given by another person is flawed. You have been concetrating soley on how your health, not open to discussion is being used to prevent you from travelling as you see fit.
> You do not understand what my condition involves or even how it impacts on daily life. Therefore do not tell others that they are wrong, because you are right. You're not.
> *Read the following before answering*
> 
> ...


 deffo need to end this.....we're running out of interweb.........every time DR posts, a server dies of exhaustion somewhere.....


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## classic33 (12 Oct 2012)

Andy_R said:


> deffo need to end this.....we're running out of interweb.........every time DR posts, a server dies of exhaustion somewhere.....


Give him a chance to respond first.
This thread gets locked, he'll start another. That will get locked for similar reasons. Its the reason *four*, not three as he said, sites have banned him.

Mr Hippo
I find nothing wrong in the way you chose to explain a stuation. Disabled rider disagreed.
He chose to focus on what might have been done at the cafe in the situation as given by yourself.
This the travelling from point A to point B. Regardless of ability.
His focus, used very loosly, is on getting there & back. Not on what happens whilst his there.

Your situation was wrong because he did not like it. He did not like it because it came too close to the situation he claims he is "trying" to explain. We just cannot understand his point off view. Bear in mind that his health is not open for discussion. This means that neither he, nor we can talk about his dis-ability. Because he said so, end off. No ifs, no buts.

Disabled rider.
You make too many asumptions.
Only you can be correct. No-one else knows anything, and yet by your own admission you come seeking help. Or more correctly support for your cause.

You accuse me of not knowing about a condition I was born, brought up with & live with every day of my life. How the f..k..g h..l can you know what its like you do not have to live with it. You mention secondary conditions. Have you ever had to refuse treatment, regardless of cost, because of your impairment. Because that treatment may just kill you. I have, when you have come back & let me know what it felt like to have to turn that treatment down. Have you ever been denied medical treatment on the grounds that those who would be giving that treatment did not want to be resposible for your death. Again I have. That treatment denied was for cancer, the Big C, call it what you want. The condition remains the same.

I have since the earlier post tonight lodged a complaint against any application you may make in the US for a firearms licence. That will come from the top down. Checks are made at local, county & state level. If your name appears on that list you will be denied the licence. Its the law

You do not have a hunting licence, nor have you ever. The wheels have been set in motion on that one. You should have a knock on the door/early morning alarm call within a few days.

If you feel like asking me why did I do that, *READ THE ABOVE. *You are pompus, arrogant & blind to those around you. You are two thirds of the three wise monkey statue, blind & deaf. And you'll not get much sense out of the statue, either.

I have not used what you have only posted on here, I've looked elsewhere. Used that information. All the time leaving little hints. But you ignored them.

Your only concern throughout your many posts, here & elsewhere(I know some of them) is that you being deaf, should be allowed to break/be above the law, because you cannot be bothered even trying. People were expecting you this week & you failed to show. You choose to remain in your own little world, insisting that everyone is out to get you.

A thought

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6E2hYDIFDIU

Sorry for the length of this post folks


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## classic33 (12 Oct 2012)

Tigerbiten said:


> SNOW:- With the correct studded tyres on my trike, I can cope with snow up to ~8" deep.
> After that the cross member of the frame starts to collect snow.
> But then again, I'm riding one of the lowest recumbent trike out, a Sprint model ICE trike.
> 
> ...


 See
http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2012/05/03/bicyclist-injuries-up-deaths-down/


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## Cyclopathic (12 Oct 2012)

What is disabledrider's primary disability? Is it deafness and from that various other conditions have sprung? Or do you have another disability, a symptom of which is deafness. Pardon the question but I just want to better understand your situation.


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## classic33 (12 Oct 2012)

Cyclopathic said:


> What is disabledrider's primary disability? Is it deafness and from that various other conditions have sprung? Or do you have another disability, a symptom of which is deafness. Pardon the question but I just want to better understand your situation.


 His primary disability is deafness, the others mentioned have happenned along the way.
His real disability, in my book is he wants everyone to tell him his right. Because he is deaf he should be above the law. On here I don't think one person has agreed with him on what he claims he should be allowed to do because off his deafness.


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## classic33 (12 Oct 2012)

Anyone want a 47 page, 40,105 worded document. Thats the total of his posting sofar.
Pease note does not include quotes of other posts.


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## classic33 (12 Oct 2012)

Moss said:


> Is there a definition for the Word - Tosspottery?


 


black'n'yellow said:


> I may write a wiki entry for the word - if I do I will not provide an explanation - just a link to this thread..


 http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tosspottery

You're out off luck.


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## EltonFrog (12 Oct 2012)

This topic is going round and round in circles, it will never reach a satisfactory conclusion, and I suspect is a complete waste of everyones time and energy, especially the OP's.


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## classic33 (12 Oct 2012)

CarlP said:


> This topic is going round and round in circles, it will never reach a satisfactory conclusion, and I suspect is a complete waste of everyones time and energy, especially the OP's.


 I did contact the various agencies that he would need to speak to/see earlier this week but he never showed. Why he failed to show, given what he's repeating, only he can answer. The thing is he won't answer.


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## 4F (13 Oct 2012)

Cyclopathic said:


> What is disabledrider's primary disability?


Allergy to deer.


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## mr_hippo (13 Oct 2012)

The OP uses 'exclision' like confetti!
I have ben excluded from flying first class by all airlines because of my arms. I have short arms and long pockets; I cannot get the money out to pay for my ticket!
I am also excluded from all major entertainment venues worldwide so who do I complain to? Binaural people utilise the cocktail party effect to focus their attention on one voice out of many; some monaural people can also do this but I cannot. All I get is a load of noise in one ear. Should I campaign to get noise levels reduced to about 80 dB max? This would greatly benefit me and fellow sufferers but will not endear me to the thousands who enjoy loud venues. How am I excluded? It is a self imposed exclusion, I find different places to enjoy myself.
Now, a special offer for the OP! You say you do not have a car, well go to a local dealer and choose a new car. I will put 60 percent deposit on it. Do not worry about your FICO score/credit rating. One of my American friends will put it in his name and you pay the monthly payments and runnung costs. When the final payment is made, the title will be transferred to you.
So all you have to do is to find the payments and running costs. What would you prefer? A car and many sleepless nights worrying about the money or no car and being able to sleep at night? The choice is yours.
You may think that I am excluding UK based posters but I will make them a similar offer! Any make of car but must be new, made in the UK this year by Dinky and bought from an authorised Dinky approved stockist!
Getting back on a serious note. This happened to me, tell me who I can complain to. I love the more highbrow type of quiz programmes and would love to appeaar on Countdown and win a teapot; UK readers know what I am talking about! I have been to a few auditions without success. The closest I ever got was a dummy run through of one programme; I won the final round by a wide margin and was congratulated by the host and the producer. That was the last I heard but did see on one episode the contestant who finished a very poor second to me. Why was I not chosen Stutter? Not photogenic or another reason?.


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## classic33 (13 Oct 2012)

mr_hippo said:


> The OP uses 'exclision' like confetti!
> I have ben excluded from flying first class by all airlines because of my arms. I have short arms and long pockets; I cannot get the money out to pay for my ticket!
> I am also excluded from all major entertainment venues worldwide so who do I complain to? Binaural people utilise the cocktail party effect to focus their attention on one voice out of many; some monaural people can also do this but I cannot. All I get is a load of noise in one ear. Should I campaign to get noise levels reduced to about 80 dB max? This would greatly benefit me and fellow sufferers but will not endear me to the thousands who enjoy loud venues. How am I excluded? It is a self imposed exclusion, I find different places to enjoy myself.
> Now, a special offer for the OP! You say you do not have a car, well go to a local dealer and choose a new car. I will put 60 percent deposit on it. Do not worry about your FICO score/credit rating. One of my American friends will put it in his name and you pay the monthly payments and runnung costs. When the final payment is made, the title will be transferred to you.
> ...


 Hate to say this but you stand a better chance of getting sense out of the OP than getting a Dinky Car,thats been made in the UK. Dinkey went bust many moons ago & Corgi, their nearest rival are made in China & India. Machbox, now owned by Mattel(Hot Wheels) also made in China.


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## Cyclopathic (13 Oct 2012)

Disabledrider, bearing in mind the lengths people have gone to to try and answer your points and to understand your position I would be grateful for a concise answer to the questions I posted earlier.
To reiterate, do you think you would be as patient and indulgent with some one else who demanded so much of the other forum members? 
Also what further purpose is there in continuing the thread and what is it that you think we here can do to help?


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## Crosstrailer (13 Oct 2012)

I think the biggest and most important issue raised in this thread is that in Minnesota deer are being discriminated against by disabled cyclists


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## mr_hippo (13 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> Hate to say this but you stand a better chance of getting sense out of the OP than getting a Dinky Car,thats been made in the UK. Dinkey went bust many moons ago & Corgi, their nearest rival are made in China & India. Machbox, now owned by Mattel(Hot Wheels) also made in China.


That joke offer was made so that UK based members did not feel 'excluded' and that the OP was getting special treatment.
Off topic: I thought that Dinky were far superior to Corgi


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## Moss (13 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tosspottery
> 
> You're out off luck.


 
Urban Dictionary. I'll remember that for future reference.


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## classic33 (13 Oct 2012)

Crosstrailer said:


> I think the biggest and most important issue raised in this thread is that in Minnesota deer are being discriminated against by disabled cyclists


Only the one dis-abled cyclist. They can run faster than he can, so they'll enjoy a longer life as from yesterday.


mr_hippo said:


> That joke offer was made so that UK based members did not feel 'excluded' and that the OP was getting special treatment.
> Off topic: I thought that Dinky were far superior to Corgi


Agree on the Dinky part. Ironic that Corgi are now owned by the company that once owned Dinky.
Not "excluding the poor" by saying one was better than the other am I?
I bought one today an' all. Bought from an authorised Dinky approved stockist!

I now believe he's gone. BikeRadar & YACF, here he comes.


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## Arch (13 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> I now believe he's gone. BikeRadar & YACF, here he comes.


 
Oh dear god, YACF would rip him to shreds.


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## Norm (13 Oct 2012)

Arch said:


> Oh dear god, YACF would rip him to shreds.


We can but hope.


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## classic33 (13 Oct 2012)

Arch said:


> Oh dear god, YACF would rip him to shreds.


Don't go bringing religion into this thread. He may want it excluding!
From what I know he doesn't believe in him anyway.


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## black'n'yellow (13 Oct 2012)

Arch said:


> Oh dear god, YACF would rip him to shreds.


 
someone send him a link to veloriders - that won't be pretty....


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## Oldspice (13 Oct 2012)

[QUOTE 2096635, member: 45"]Right, remind me what he said again......[/quote]

The mayor does not believe there is a shark in the water, so he is not going to close the beach


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## classic33 (13 Oct 2012)

[QUOTE 2096635, member: 45"]Right, remind me what he said again......[/quote]
See post 531 on previous page. If you you think you're upto reading it from the start, again. Not partway through, remember that!

He didn't post last Saturday either.

07:36 Sunday for his next post on here.


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## Cyclopathic (13 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> *I now believe he's gone.* BikeRadar & YACF, here he comes.


 

Was it something we said?


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## Cyclopathic (13 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> See post 531 on previous page. If you you think you're upto reading it from the start, again. Not partway through, remember that!
> 
> *He didn't post last Saturday either.*
> 
> *07:36 Sunday for his next post on here*.


 
Is something going on do you think? Some sort of shenanigins perhaps?


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## Cyclopathic (13 Oct 2012)

I'm gonna miss that guy.


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## on the road (14 Oct 2012)

It was good entertainment 

Looks like the show's over


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## MrJamie (14 Oct 2012)

I was going to post a Bambi video in jest, but it was too sad


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## classic33 (14 Oct 2012)

on the road said:


> It was good entertainment
> 
> Looks like the show's over


 6(that magic number again) hours 20 to go


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## classic33 (14 Oct 2012)

MrJamie said:


> I was going to post a Bambi video in jest, but it was too sad


 View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6E2hYDIFDIU
More fitting I think


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## Oldspice (14 Oct 2012)

Go Vegan.


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## asterix (15 Oct 2012)

CarlP said:


> This topic is going round and round in circles, it will never reach a satisfactory conclusion, *and I suspect is a complete waste of everyones time and energy,* especially the OP's.


 
Not mine, I haven't replied to it..

Ooops, damn!


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## classic33 (15 Oct 2012)

For those, including disabled rider, who may have thought that what I was saying as having done, wasn't. I offer some proof that it wasn't all talk.





Phonecalls, who said what to who & when, cannot be placed as easily on here. But my efforts were serious attempts at trying to find out/help. You may not like the answers given, but there's more than me tried to help out.
What I've posted on here is as was said/done & now its upto disabled rider, who doesn't always sign in, but does watch, to take it further

I was hoping for a response before this thread died, but such is the nature of trying to get an answer in a short period of time(not always possible) I'm posting now.


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## classic33 (15 Oct 2012)

*RE: "Discimination" against disabled cyclists‏*

From: 
*Mitchell, Tim (DOT)* (Tim.Mitchell@state.mn.us)
Sent: 
15 October 2012 16:01:35
To:  

Cc:  
Jorenby, Kristin (DOT) (kristin.jorenby@state.mn.us)
Thank you very much for your inquiry.
First, I would like to clarify your question. In the title you note that this was in regard to discrimination against disabled cyclists. Did you intend for this to be in the literal sense? If so, we will need to coordinate your concerns with our Affirmative Action Office.
If not, then the answer to your question is relatively straight forward. In Minnesota, state law allows bicyclists to travel on any roadway with the exception of controlled access highways (visualize one of our interstates). 
Specific to your question, most of U.S. Highway 52 is open to bicycling. There are specific stretches in the Twin Cities area that bicycling would be restricted, as well as a stretch through the City of Rochester. 
I hope this assists you. Please let me know if you have more specific questions.
tm
*From:* 
*Sent:* Wednesday, October 10, 2012 6:29 PM
*To:* Geschwind, Lynnette (DOT)
*Subject:* "Discimination" against disabled cyclists
Trying to find out what the legal posistion is with regards cycling on the pavements in Minnesota by someone who feels that the roads are not safe to cycle on.
What restricts/prevents cyclists from using highway 52. Is it down to the speed of the traffic, similar to the motorways over here. Or was it never designed to take cyclists from the start.
I will say that this is coming from the UK, , which explains the wording used.

Picture posted isn't clear enough. Text of message posted hear.


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## disabled rider (15 Oct 2012)

Update: Not easy being a self advocate and an advocate for other people with impairments.

Talked to city again. As it stands they tried to give the end run not to do anything and to uphold the status Quo for normalized discrimination. I pointed out the part where it is discrimination when considering the level of risk comparison. That the data is not there to show one way or other and it needs to be looked as at a case by case basis as result. He started to get real nervous, when I mentioned that if this is not resolved. It would be heading for the DOJ ADA complaint under title 2 discriminatory policy. If I can show that my risk of getting killed personally following current rules is higher than the average able bodied. And how current policy will stop my ability to care for myself. Case is over. DOJ will make them adapt policy to include. DOJ may up the ante and go after the state law itself.

In doing so every disabled rider benefits. Because of the secular segregation and disenfranchising of our lives, this is the tactics disabled people are left with, when trying to advocate for themselves and for the larger body of people with impairments. We stand alone when trying to enforce or rights in The vast majority of cases. Rarely do we come together for things like the ADA, only real reason that happened was the large support by able body community, who helped connect us for that goal.

If this was a race issue. I would better be able to find the other people in the race areas due to there better rights of assembly. Martin Luther King and groups like the Black Panthers was big part of making their rights to assembly possible. They could rise up and cause havoc and have. Thus the rest of the population gave them leeway we do not have in disability community.

The point is when I was asked here specifically who else this effects. I can't give you individual names I can only give you class of impairments, Like extreme poor sight, or epilepsy, or deaf, or impairment to balance, Down syndrome, etc All of these groups have a significant increase in risk of getting killed over the able bodied when cycling, when you look at it from a case by case basis. If you try to use the flawed data collection, collected by able bodied, then the there is no risk difference. Like how many Impaired people were killed. Data shows very few to none, because The impairments a person had, was not recorded because it was not deemed to have any validity as contributing factor of being killed. Able bodied just record "cyclist got killed". And NOT "deaf cyclist got killed" The data collection itself was discriminatory when collecting statistical data. By leaving out relevant data that did not match an able bodied criteria of the data needing to be stored.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Sorry been out, Writing a petition and appeal to the city, been getting hopelessly behind, I glanced at a few of the latest post. I said my example is only one I have direct access to, So it going to look self absorbed, I am sorry for that. I can not help it. I cannot find other people in my boat specifically writing about it. There are multitude of reasons(NOT EXCUSES) for not finding it. Like there are so few of us. The disenfranchised nature of our lives. which society wants. (You know they want it, by how the rules are set to prevent us from assembling in mass and saying we had enough.) I know for fact people with severe sight and people with epilepsy have the same issues in how the law discriminates when They ride their bikes as utility purposes from point a to point b.
-----------------------------------
-----------------------------------

I have not been using any other impairment examples because I have no direct contact with people with such impairments and as result. Anything I post from their direct point of view would be pure speculation, But it does not mean that the speculation isn't true.
I don't want to give false information by accident because it would do more harm in the long run. So I stick to "my" specific example in how it applies.
-------------------------------------
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You ever consider that what you see as being self absorbed, is a result to the forced segregation by society in its practice of normalized discrimination of exclusion? My only real contact with the outside world is people at the farmers market for a few hours on Sat. An appointment with a professional. And talking to one of two neighbors every now and then, one being bound to wheel chair the other lives with epilepsy who has a hard time following conversation that I spend 1/2 or more of my time explaining what I am trying to tell her. Lot of times she still doesn't get it. The rest doesn't even warrant a conversation. I might have to go talk to City hall or something every once in great while. something like that..
---------------------------------------
---------------------------------------
have you ever considered that cycling is vital to my ability to survive? If I can't get from point A to Point B without a cycle, I physically CAN NOT TAKE CARE OF MYSELF. I would starve to death, I would not be able to get to appointments, get other necessities etc. I am having it taken away from me because I will not risk getting killed for sure. "EXCLUSION FACTOR"
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You ever consider that the reason I do not have other examples, is other people with major impairments are so terrified of getting killed, that A they are illegally riding on sidewalks themselves, or B they are not riding at all and are cut off and suffer as result. That due to being cut off. That it is extremely difficult to impossible to advocate and plead to able body people, to take up the mantle of justice for the fight of inclusion? Or when they do plead to able body people they are told flat out sorry there is nothing they can do. In reality they don't want too because it is such an uphill battle that can last 5 or more years to correct.
---------------------------------------
---------------------------------------
I am having to do this all by ear here, There really is no form for me to follow. Things that would work for able bodied would not work here. Due to the format being able bodied generated that does not consider or include things that effect people with severe impairments.
----------------------------------------
---------------------------------------
The claim that I did not interpret the law right: What I been describing all along is not my interpretation It was the police officerS in bicycle safety training. That said this. The part about being as far right if there is a shoulder you go far right as possible only to move out away from edge to pass obstructions or to turn left. If there is no shoulder then you are to be as far right in the right hand lane, only moving away from edge to get around obstacles or turning left.

lets say I am using a trike I am only going 2-4 miles an hour, Downtown there is a space of several hundred ft You need to move right between where you are and the storm drain ahead, and move out into the lane when you get close to avoid running over said drain. This is an example of the portion Highlighted you claim, I fail to understand. If the pot hole and storm drain and a parallel gap in the road in the direction of travel are spaced 10 ft apart from one another then you move left to pass all three and back right after you have passed them. If you do not see another obstacle short distance of 10 ft or whatever you move right again till you get to the next one. If your going 20 miles an hour then the distance traveled to do a safe pass increases so the farther the obstacle is before merging out left to pass.

How much time you spend as close to edge is based on your speed. use some common sense. When I was describing it I was factoring multiple speed levels.

when I been talking as far right there is no shoulder DOWNTOWN
You left out this (c) Persons riding bicycles upon a roadway or shoulder shall not ride more than two abreast and shall not impede the normal and reasonable movement of traffic and, on a laned roadway, shall ride within a single lane. (means you have to be right as much as possible downtown unless your doing 10 miles an hour or higher. At that speed your going weaving sporadically. All though 10 maybe on low side on main street which also happens to be a highway at the same time. What is "*practicable* " at 2-3 miles an hour is not at 10-20 miles an hour. What I was describing is the speed at which I am traveling when using examples. The distance to next object increases the faster you go. Thus moving left sooner inorder to safely pass.)

Where I live, if you stay in the lane to avoid the so called obstacles, because your too lazy to pull right your impeding traffic. Traffic downtown Is congested. What I was trying to show is how the law fails when the roads were not specifically designed to be wide enough to allow cycles.

When I say far right on a shoulder, that is common sense, because traffic coming from behind are going to have a lot of turbulence. I was talking in reference to 52 specifically. When they banned cycles claiming safety as excuse. When it wasn't due to shoulders being 10-12 ft wide, if you stay far right when traffic is going by you at 65 miles an hour you do not get the turbulence pull/push.

I am trying to track down over head shots diagrams of what is required here. I am having trouble locating them my safety training(part of boy scouts) was back before the internet was in wide use. It is the same now as it was then. I bumped in to this in the process.: Anyway if your interested here is one in our state, who have to deal with this and know first hand, discussing the finer points on this http://www.city-data.com/forum/minn...06-crazy-bicyle-riders-costing-us-more-4.html pay particular attention to "Golfgal" That is not me. Snofarmer is off base he/she tried to use an article that doesn't exist now but is re-posted. They were applying OHIO case about what is "traffic" to minnesota. Ohio laws have no barring on minnesota interpretation. Snofarmer is trying to apply your interpretation. Golfgal is using the interpretation the courts use here in MN.
----------------------------------
----------------------------------
I don't know why many of you folks have such a hard time following this. I run this same information past people at the farmers market and they get it right away, vast majority, aren't even cyclists. And the 2 people in the building I talk to, they get it. My psychologist gets it. City hall staff gets it, making them nervous. City attorney gets it. I think one of the biggest things that makes the council nervous is they don't control the entire city. MAYO Clinic has power at the same level or more than the city. MAYO is a company which thinks its above the law most times. And has a record of butting head with the city council if MAYO doesn't like something. In the end City has to abide the federal law ADA title 2. I do not envy the city council on this. Yet I am not backing down till my risk of life is lowered to be more on par with able cyclist. This is do or die literally.

Even a woman, who has had close calls, with crazy riders, trying to blow through bus stop area, across from ST Mary's on the sidewalk, understood what I was talking about. UM the crazy riders she mentioned were able bodied.
----------------------------
----------------------------
I just got off the phone with the LT from the police department. I described exactly what I wrote above. He says that is absolutely correct. You must move right between obstacles, (only time you leave the curb is to navigate around obstacles) riding just to right of traffic is not allowed, unless your rate of movement say 30 miles an hour causes you to frequently weave in and out of the main lane of traffic to miss pot holes every 10 - 20 ft or berm of snow along road, gravel that would destroy speed bike tires, etc. even at those speeds your still required to move as far right as possible if there is a shoulder you move right as long as the hazards are not blocking your path at the speed of which your traveling..

So people that are claiming I am incorrect, stop. I just had the information verified by the police department here. It is as hazardous as I have been claiming. I am not exaggerating anything, regarding how we are required to ride. To continue to say, it is incorrect, you saying the police department is wrong. You are claiming the courts interpretation is wrong. 
---------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------
food shelf = http://www.channel-one.org/ http://www.emergencyfoodshelf.org/ all you would of had to do is do minnesota "food shelf" in google 
@mr hippo refrain from name calling "deranged rider" is not an accurate description of me. you took me out of context. I really do not want to break the law. I said that if my life is being threatened by laws that will cause my death, then I will steal "NECESSITIES ONLY, FOOD, WATER, ETC" in order to survive, to prevent death to me. http://www.debate.org/opinions/is-i...means-by-which-the-food-may-be-obtained?p=yes http://www.ehow.com/info_8118380_ethical-dilemmas-accountability.html http://d2bb.org/morality.htm If you read through these links, you would understand there is nothing deranged about stealing food if there is absolutely no other means to acquire food at all. ESPECIALLY taking in to account the person doesn't want to do it and is given only two options die or steal. 

http://www.crossroadsinitiative.com...ead_Yes__Sneakers_Maybe__DVDs_Not_Likely.html
Quote:"In some cases, stealing is permissible, and New Orleans presents one of those cases. Thomas Aquinas argued that in cases of desperate need, stealing to meet basic needs would involve no moral crime. Aquinas reached this conclusion by distinguishing natural right from human right. He argued that the goods of creation exist to meet human needs. While the uneven distribution of these goods throughout society may be protected by human law, nonetheless, the goods were intended to meet the needs of all people. Even in normal conditions, through a quotation from St. Ambrose, Aquinas reminded the wealthy to remember that "it is the hungry man's bread that you withhold, the naked man's cloak you store away, the money that you bury in the earth is the price of the poor man's ransom and freedom." In other words, our claims to our possessions always are limited by the needs of others." "needs of others" are necessities to survive only

Quote;"Anyone who has watched video from New Orleans will acknowledge that Hurricane Katrina created just the kind of "dire need" Aquinas described. Moving video of elderly in wheelchairs and without medication, of young mothers with babies at their breast, of parentless children wandering aimlessly, confirms that in these kinds of cases "stealing" may not only be permissible, it might even be morally obligatory. To take from a Walmart, or a pharmacy or grocery store, formula, medication, water, and food ceases to be stealing in this context and becomes the exercise of one's natural right to survive. The police and other authorities who recognized this and ignored and apparently even facilitated such behavior knew this."

This is the context in which I speak of. In my case it is a lack of "compassionate action"(donation of food to food shelf as example) by people and laws in which prevent me from caring for myself.

If you consider my exercising my natural right "right to live" to survive from death "deranged" then I am guilty of it.

The context you tried to twist me into doing, was stealing, when I had other options available to me. THIS context is immoral and unethical for me to do. BUT THAT IS NOT THE CONTEXT I WROTE. So one of two things happened. Either you do not comprehend what I was talking about. OR you willfully manipulated what I said to argue something that doesn't exist because I simply did not say it, in the manor of context of your arguing that I am deranged.

In the real world from the perspective of a person with impairments: Blocked access means there is no way in. Any time I talk I am talking from the perspective of the person with impairments, I try to announce if I am using from any other perspective. "like from the perspective of an able bodied".
You would have known, what this meant, if you were using the perspective in which I suggested you had from the start. person with impairments. you would have realized its talking about exclusion in how able bodied people threw up a physical and policy barrier that prevented access. to that whole area. The whole southern tip of rochester is cut off to anyone not in a car past the 52 bridge crossing 63. 63 is Broadway south. 63 is the highway, Broadway is the city street, bisecting east and west. They share the same roadbed to the city limits.

your still looking at it from an able bodied perspective.


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## Longshot (15 Oct 2012)

OK, enough now. You're deluded. Search long enough and you'll find some long dead geezer who said something vaguely profound that will support your view. It's OK for you to steal. It's OK for you to conveniently ignore laws that don't suit you. Whatever. 

You're alienating yourself from society, not the other way round. You'll just never see it. You can add blind to the disability list.


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## Oldspice (15 Oct 2012)

MLK and the Black Panthers? See Longshot's comment for my answer +1000000 and a tin of tuna (dolphin friendly)


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## TheDoctor (15 Oct 2012)

tl;dr


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## classic33 (16 Oct 2012)

Strongly suggest you read this, AND THEN CONTACT those whose e-mail addresses are given
*RE: "Discimination" against disabled cyclists‏*From: 
*Mitchell, Tim (DOT)* (Tim.Mitchell@state.mn.us)
Sent: 
15 October 2012 16:01:35
To: 

Cc: 
Jorenby, Kristin (DOT) (kristin.jorenby@state.mn.us)
Thank you very much for your inquiry.
First, I would like to clarify your question. In the title you note that this was in regard to discrimination against disabled cyclists. Did you intend for this to be in the literal sense? If so, we will need to coordinate your concerns with our Affirmative Action Office.
If not, then the answer to your question is relatively straight forward. In Minnesota, state law allows bicyclists to travel on any roadway with the exception of controlled access highways (visualize one of our interstates). 
Specific to your question, most of U.S. Highway 52 is open to bicycling. There are specific stretches in the Twin Cities area that bicycling would be restricted, as well as a stretch through the City of Rochester. 
I hope this assists you. Please let me know if you have more specific questions.
tm
and
lynette.gescwhind@state.mn.us

It clearly says that there is only "_*a stretch through the City of Rochester*", _that cyclists are not allowed/prevented from using. I have only removed my personal details from what you see there & in the post where it is given in image format.

I have spoken to various officies/departments, on the phone, from the UK, at local, county, state & federal levels. You may not want to believe that. That choice is yours. Others on here have tried to help, you say that they do not understand where you are coming from. An example was given by one person, and your immediate reaction was to say that the example given was wrong because it failed to fit into what you wanted. Your examples however wild cannot be wrong, as you(and only you) know what its like to be dis-abled & ride a bike.

Why were appointments made for you to meet with those who you needed to speak to not kept. You failed to show, when you said you would be going. Did/have you actually gone to any of the public buildings you claim to have been to? People were advised you were coming & you never turned up.

As a "dis-abled bodied" person I feel I have as much right to tell you that you know understand. I have ridden on one wheel through to 7 wheels. I'll admit that the 6 & 7 wheelers were not fit for prolonged road use, but they have been ridden on the road. Please do not say that I look from"able bodied perspective "on this. You are viewing this a simple case of I should get what I want.
“What We Want, What We Believe”. Black Panthers
Martin Luther King Jr. Had a dream where all men were created equal.
You are neither of the above, please don't insult them trying to liken what you want to what they did.

I can also talk as a person who was his own advocate, mentioned earlier if you read it. I took on government under legislation so new at the time that many thought it was a joke. That "joke" stopped when they found that it was real & I was serious about what I was doing. I never descended into stating that in order to survive I'd end up having to steal. I've fought the petty minded predujices of people & companies that take only what they can see & their narrow minded opinions into account. I'm prepared to fight for what I believe I'm entitled to. Under the Disability Discrimination Act1995, that was covered by "reasonable adjustment" That for me was give me the chance, let me try & if I can't do it I'll go. But at least let me try.

We had a guaranteed interview scheme for jobs, whereby because I'm classed as dis-abled, I am guaranteed an interview, regardless of ability to do the actual job. Thats unfair to the "able bodied person", better qualified through having actually done it before. Thats exclusion of the 2able bodied", but you're not bothered about them.

You're chances of being hit, whilst legally cycling on the road are the same as those ofwhat you class as "able bodied". Because you cannot hear traffic approaching, does not put you at any greater risk than someone who can. You put yourself at greater risk by not being willing to look behind, as any other cyclist would have to. On that you are no different. Just lazy, and that to you is good enough.

You have done more to alienate those with a dis-ability than anyone I have come across. Purely & simply because "I want, I get" is what you believe is your right. It isn't. You may not like the law, everybody hates/disagree with some law(s), but that does not give you the automatic right to say that you will resort to stealing/theft if you do not get what you want. No matter what excuse you make up.

There are others worse of than yourself, you have mobility. Yet you chose not to use it fully. *Too much effort required*. Won't look for work, tried & turned down only 29 times, *Too much effort required* to look for work Take the longer & safer way round. *Too much effort required. *Do you see a pattern emerging here?. Work, too *much effort required.*

*Stop feeling sorry for yourself, get off your backside & put some effort into something.*


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## disabled rider (16 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> For those, including disabled rider, who may have thought that what I was saying as having done, wasn't. I offer some proof that it wasn't all talk.
> View attachment 13926
> 
> 
> ...


 
appreciate your efforts.
overall MNDOT is not interested in "inclusion of disabled riders" other than lip service to prevent getting sued under title 2 of ADA.

MNDOT is the one who was responsible for cutting off access to the southern tip of Rochester for us to reach critical services we need. City hall fought to keep the intersection, we needed to legally get over there. MNDOT ignored the strong protest against the intersections removal and the fence installed to prevent people from going over there.

MNDOT is the one RESPONSIBLE for removing the right to use 52.

note in the inquiry "we will need to send you to *"our"* affirmative action Office". for further help. note also they are the ones forcing us to use the road by their own admission. MNDOT This is legal speak to head off litigation by DOJ "Department of justice" or advocacy groups. Affirmative action office is their legal department dealing with discrimination.(They won't openly admit that.)

This is in terms of impaired rider who is utility cycling, NOT RECREATIONAL. time and efficiency/ safety are crucial.

http://maps.google.com/maps?oe=utf-...a=X&ei=RI98ULynEIm4yQGVxID4CQ&ved=0CCAQ8gEwAA
The part about the 52 access from Rochester. what they are not telling you is, you can not get access to 52N within the city limits legally, its posted at the on ramps heading out of town. You can not get access, outside city limits, unless you take a more hazardous roundabout, using back roads that is more than 10 miles out of the way in 1 direction for me, if it is even possible.(This is a harassment and discouragement tactic they deploy to discourage/ forbid the use of 52) All back roads connecting to 52, have no shoulder, what so ever, hilly and twisty roads and often have heavy fog early in the day or evening in spring and Fall 75th st is not a back road.. Discovered this when trying to find the safest route to fishing by Oronoco dam.

taking county rd 112 or 18th ave NW, there is a real steep hill(from a kids perspective in front passenger seat of car, you are looking at nothing but sky going up that hill, scared the crap out of me the first time mom went over that hill thought mom was going to flip the car over backwards.), at the bottom of said hill gets a lot of fog early and late. On the north side. Back side of that hill is narrow and twisty road with lot of blind spots. People are driving in access of 45 miles an hour there Closer to 50 to 55. It is easy to get run over here. You go north to 75th st NW to take a left towards 52n they put in a new clover like crossing bridge at 52. The sound barrier stops at 37th st NW and continues no farther north 52.

Taking county rd 112 past 75th st nw is a "death trap" for cyclists it is a straight run with frequent rises and dips that completely hides a rider from a drivers perspective. They often hit 55-60 miles an hour here, because of how straight it is, they get a rush coming over a rise feels like soaring. When they do that they hit the cyclist that is in the actual lane Absolutely no shoulders along this stretch.

If I take the frontage roads going parallel to 52 to the county rd 22/ "west circle drive" get on 52 there, past the barriers, that is a straight shot efficient safest route to oronoco and beyond. MNDOT knows this. Yet forbids it.

I go to the on ramps myself in the attempt to go to Oronoco or some point before pine island.

And to top it, you misunderstood the 52 dilemma, you reversed it , 52 use, is poor on bicycle vs rich in car which "block freedom of movement" of the poor. This is constitutional issue. It also effects the disabled riders who are poor as well.
52 goes almost smack dab down the middle of the hunting zone 602 in the CWD(chronic wasting disease) zone where I will most likely be hunting due to the safest access for me.

The discrimination mainly within the business district inside the city limits where your not permitted on the side walk.

I put them both together in this thread because they both impact the disabled riders ability to care for themselves, when the use of bicycle is their sole means of getting around. and walking isn't really feasible or time efficient. in my case the skeletal problem I have.

Other reason for putting it together here along with promoting advocacy is it is easier to follow 1 thread rather than 3-4 with frequent cross references to the other threads for relevant information.


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## classic33 (16 Oct 2012)

Longshot said:


> OK, enough now. You're deluded. Search long enough and you'll find some long dead geezer who said something vaguely profound that will support your view. It's OK for you to steal. It's OK for you to conveniently ignore laws that don't suit you. Whatever.
> 
> You're alienating yourself from society, not the other way round. You'll just never see it. You can add blind to the disability list.


*Post 572, Page 27*
_"You are pompus, arrogant & blind to those around you. You are two thirds of the three wise monkey statue, blind & deaf. And you'll not get much sense out of the statue, either."_


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## classic33 (16 Oct 2012)

I have spoken with the very people you say that what you are say is wrong. Why don't I just pass them your details, (You post to much elsewhere) and let them get in touch with you on this matter.

When the dis-abled side doesn't work out you revert to the poor side. If you want any chance at convincing people you are serious on this matter you are going to have to stick to one or the other, not swap as you see fit for your argument.

I think you'll also find that some of the state law is the same as the federal law. If you are poor as you constantly say you are. How are you going to mount any kind of case?

In this case you are the nenegligent one in this You are placing yourself before everyone else & blaming them to boot. At some point you are going to have to learn to look out for yourself.

Hunting won't be a problem much longer for you, so your need to use the restricted parts of the roads system will no longer exist. Unless you continue to do it, illegally!


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## classic33 (16 Oct 2012)

You are saying you are hunting in an area with this.
http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/mammals/deer/cwd/index.html & http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3323184/
Cousin this side of the water being "Mad Cow Disease".
Unlike Spock I don't think you're going to _"Live long and prosper"_ if this is the case.
You have greater worries than riding a bike mate.


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## disabled rider (16 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> Strongly suggest you read this, AND THEN CONTACT those whose e-mail addresses are given
> *RE: "Discimination" against disabled cyclists‏*From:
> *Mitchell, Tim (DOT)* (Tim.Mitchell@state.mn.us)
> Sent:
> ...


 
OK you and mr hippo are ganging up, that example your referring to had nothing to do with exclusion(that was what I was objecting too). I was putting the example in to a exclusion context related to this thread. Which is NOT what mr hippo was giving. MR hippo was giving an example of the two of you going to a cafe 30 miles away and you choose not to go because you do not feel like it. This has absolutely NOTHING to do with exclusion I been talking about that prevents me from participating. 

I changed that example to say you and MR hippo wanted to go to the cafe and the cafe excluded you because your epileptic and excluded you out of fear that you would have a convulsion that caused injury to another patron. NOW it has relevance to the thread.

_*I told you to leave the work subject alone.*_ YOU ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO SAY ANYTHING ABOUT WHETHER I AM QUALIFIED TO WORK OR NOT, _*ESPECIALLY YOUR ACCUSATION ITS ALL MY FAULT!!!!!!!!!!!*_ IN MY CASE. You have NO STINKING IDEA HOW MUCH EFFORT, HUMILIATION,FEAR OF WHETHER YOUR GOING TO RUN OUT OF MONEY BEFORE FINDING WORK, HOW MUCH DISCRIMINATION I PUT UP WITH WITH, NO LEGAL RECOURSE TO FIGHT IT, ETC. WERE YOU HERE? WHILE I WAS GOING THROUGH IT? NO. SO LEAVE IT ALONE. YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY REAL GROUND TO MAKE THAT KIND OF ASSESSMENT ABOUT MY WORKING. THERE IS SO MUCH THAT CAN NOT BE SAID HERE THAT WOULD ALLOW YOU TO MAKE AN ACCURATE ASSESSMENT. I told you I talked to several lawyers about this. They were the ones that told me it wasn't something or lack of, that I did.
--------------------------
That is your view regarding I have done more harm to people with impairments. I could say the exact same thing about you.
---------------------------
PS THERE IS A LARGE CHUNK SINCE PAGE 18ish I HAVE NOT HAD CHANCE TO READ OVER. I have NOT IGNORED ANYONE I have not had chance to read it yet I would not have told you this If I had been ignoring it.
----------------------------------
STOP INSISTING I AM COMMITTING ACTS I HAVE NOT.

IN essence IT would be me telling you that your trying to insult and derail the purpose of this thread by trying to deliberately ask MR Hippo to help gang up and try to discredit anything that I been saying, by attacking me as a person and to put full blame for the exclusion on my shoulders. And that everything that ever occurred to me was somehow my fault. and that people don't discriminate against the disabled at all.  I am reversing your actions to show you what you just did to me. I do not mean any of this point literally I do not have enough information to assess your motive of action anyway..
-------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
WHAT IS THIS? I HAVE NO CLUE WHAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT HERE: "Why were appointments made for you to meet with those who you needed to speak to not kept. You failed to show, when you said you would be going. Did/have you actually gone to any of the public buildings you claim to have been to? People were advised you were coming & you never turned up."

I have not made any appointments. All of my interactions here in rochester mn, have been either over the phone or in face to face on "walk in basis." If I can not call toll free I can not speak to them. if I can not email, then I can not deal with them at all. If they do not provide one of these two methods of contact, then I am being excluded, for simple fact of being poor. Not being able to afford long distance. I have a 3 hour limit local calls a month, for emergencies, using phone. Using toll free counts on the 3hr limit. People in our MN government know of this issue. When I requested that all the State agencies and leaders have toll free or email as contact point for the poor.

If it has to do with this thread this it is secondary, to getting food and seeing city officials, writing up an appeal to city council etc, Seeking advocate groups in MN, getting material from library to show lack of statistical data etc. talking to people I know who may know someone else etc. Going through the list of sites posted early, which are turning out to be duds so far, even the most promising one, the first advocacy group one turns out to be resource site geared for other advocacy groups and not the individuals, who are seeking help or self advocating.
------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------
Do you really expect me to listen to what you have to say if your accusing me of being a freeloader and a slacker, and refusing to take responsibility not only my own actions but everyone else too, who had committed exclusion?? after saying something like this?I take responsibility for my actions I refuse to take the responsibility for actions of others I can not control them.

"There are others worse of than yourself, you have mobility. Yet you chose not to use it fully. *Too much effort required*. Won't look for work, tried & turned down only 29 times, *Too much effort required* to look for work Take the longer & safer way round. *Too much effort required. *Do you see a pattern emerging here?. Work, too *much effort required."*
---------------------------------
---------------------------------
I do _*NOT*_ have full mobility, I very clearly stated I have a skeletal problem. with nerve pinching. that causes vomiting, swelling and bed rest for period directly related to the duration past pain threshold I push. I walk 10 blocks, I am in a lot of pain. PAIN MEDS DO NOT HELP. Then there is the cardiac issues. If I am not careful I can over tax my heart, Due to undiagnosed condition. I been in and out of the ER since 26 for this. More than 10 ambulance rides since I was 26. 3 in the last 2 years. The doctors have no stinking clue what is going on. It is not connected to the WPW. When cycling, I can back off and coast and it does not cause the jarring impact to cause nerve pinching.

_"Too much effort required. Won't look for work, tried & turned down only 29 times, Too much effort required to look for work Take the longer & safer way round. Too much effort required. Do you see a pattern emerging here?"_

You just purposely changed everything I been saying about my work background etc. around to be something it is NOT. This is outright slander. STOP IT NOW. You ARE IMPLYING a PATTERN THAT DOES NOT EXIST. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I TOLD YOU IN THE FIRST POST NOT TO DO!
YOU purposely took what I been saying out of context and completely changing the meaning of what I had actually said! THIS is more damaging than anything I have ever done here. You have purposely accused me of an action I have not done. This is the slander. You said a false and damaging personal character statement of something I had not done or had no control over.

_tried & turned down _do you understand what this says? It says two things by its-self and in context of what you said. You were implying my actions, so it means in context. I tried going to interviews didn't get discriminated against by all 29 and refused to look any further. LOAD OF HOGWASH.  It was how I was turned down I talked to 2 separate employment lawyers about this(They were the ones who said it was discrimination which I had no legal recourse to fight it,and THERE WERE NO OTHER JOBS I WAS QUALIFIED FOR, when I filed for disability insurance.

I have no idea what you meant by the _Take the longer & safer way round_

Where do you get off thinking, you know, whether I can work or not, over the accumulated experience of the SSA , MAYO CLINIC. Multiple Psychiatrists and Psychologists, work center groups for job placements and training, temp agencies, several employment and disability lawyers, Center for effective living, etc? Where do you get off saying that all of these groups are wrong and liars?? You just callously discredited them, and CALLED them LIARS with the above red quote you made, besides me.
I have tried repeatedly to say I AM NOT THE ONLY ONE WHO SAYS I AM UNEMPLOYABLE. It does not have anything to do with my attitude. The above agencies and professionals have clearly marked my files as such, This involves face to face consultation with me. Believe me if they think you are the issue THEY TELL YOU to your face. All of these groups would get into serious legal trouble with the federal government if they lied about my case and it was as you said I am just being lazy.

Psychiatrist and psychologists could loose their license here for lying on my behalf. They are NOT going to risk their careers for me. Mayo Clinic could loose credibility and be charged of a crime for falsifying information to make it look as if I was unemployable if I am not. (They have told me directly, I am not making this up.)

All of these groups would rather say your employable, to cover their own ass. And have on many occasions when in doubt.
.
Do this one more time I will put you on permanent ignore.
--------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------
I been busy, which is the reason I have not been here, every waking moment. I am not sitting idly by while I let society further abuse the crap out of us by exclusion. Following is a copy from open office, it got messed up a little when saved to file ".RTF" I have only just started it, this past Sat. evening, been doing a lot of reading to cross reference etc. I am doing this by myself and it is taking a lot of time to put it down.
""""""""
Where to start: City council men and women....

I am here to address a normalization of discrimination, against A protected class of citizens. People with impairments, as you call people with disabilities or disabled people. This protected class of citizens are protected by a couple of civil rights laws. The law that has relevance to this situation, I am here to discuss Verbally or by this letter, is the ADA title 2 applying to local and state government. And a state law and lack of local adaptation, to said state law, is in violation of the title 2 ADA. No government shall create policy that “excludes” the inclusion of people with impairments.

I need to establish some back ground and perspective, to help you, to understand the normalization of the discrimination against us(people with impairments). Without doing so, I know for fact many of you may miss the point regarding discrimination of a protected class and how the state law violates our right to participate in society.

The reason I am appealing to you vs appealing to the state right now, is how fast the city is capable of making a permissive policy under chapter 131 That gives permission to me and others, our right to participate in society. The question becomes, do you have the integrity, to be the first in our state, to set a right where a wrong was committed?

Before I go any further, I need to establish background about myself, so you understand where I am coming from, in relation to the rest of the content I am going to share, to establish and show how I am being discriminated against, by the state and city in my ability to both participate and take care of myself.

What I am about to share about myself is not blame, complaining,seeking of pity or sympathy, nor is it open to analysis by you(City council or anyone else, not authorized, to see my my full history), nor any professionals who do not have direct contact with me. Only people allowed to analyze my case is my current doctors, and psychologist(who I been seeing for more than 6 years).

What I am about to share about myself is meant to establish a point of perspective, by a person who is being harmed by 'Normalized Discrimination”.

First establishing as “FACT” That I am “disabled”.

I am a person with several impairments. Under the SSA, I am considered “Disabled” 2 major life activities are severely impaired. “working” , “Interpersonal relationships, both professionally and personally”.
 
The following is the individual impairments in which I have. I need to share them, because they have both direct and indirect relevance to my coming before you. I am going to list them in order of most importance to the discrimination in this situation.


I have moderate to profound hearing loss (basically 2/3 -3/4 total loss), It had gotten to the point it is very difficult to impossible to communicate verbally without hearing aids especially when lipreading is impossible.
2. Atypical Panic Attacks, Things within reach of my blind spot, where I can not hear, causes me to jump and stumble , and loose balance (balance related to the inner ear), Which then lead to the Atypical panic attack, That can impair my ability to physically move and affects my cardiovascular system. NOT the same thing as “Ambulatory impairments.”

3. Skeletal defect in the connective tissue. Farther I walk, the more intense the nerve pinching damage, causes extreme pain, that leads to severe swelling, vomiting, and bed rest, bed rest goes up in direct relation to the amount I push past the pain threshold. Pain medication does not help what so ever. Medication does not stop the nerves from being physically pinched. Avoiding certain types of activity, is the only thing, that has been able to reduce or prevent this from happening. Like avoid walking distance from my place to Baldwin.

4. Congenital Heart defect. Originally believed to be “WPW”(Wolfe Parkinson White syndrome) In my medical file it is listed as WPW. But it is not the classic WPW per say. My particular case is complicated. The doctors involved, do not fully understand my case, which they have told me to my face after the heart surgery. What they do know, is the WPW was not the cause of my heart doing in excess of 200 beats a minute and my accessory pathway goes down not up. So it was not the cause of the feedback loop that causes the excess heart rate. (I have another undiagnosed condition, which they refuse to acknowledge in my medical file, It weakens MAYO credibility, if they were to publicly acknowledge it as "we don't know". So it is listed as WPW, where the “radio-frequency ablation” stopped the short circuit in my heart.) Point here is the surgery did not solve all my cardiology problems. I suffer from them because the doctors refuse to investigate further to find the underlying cause, and refuse to admit in writing that they don't know. Number 2 above impacts number 4. Doctors do not know why, I have turned blue on multiple occasions.

5. C-PTSD Complex post traumatic stress disorder (caused: decades of torture and torment by peers both school and work place. What is official listed in my file is anxiety disorder/ atypical panic because the C-PTSD is not official recognized by American medical institutions DSM4 or DSM5 coming out. ) here it goes into detail about C-PTSD http://www.bullyonline.org/stress/ptsd.htm#Incidence Quick answer is: psychological injury that fundamentally altered my personality. Biggest change occurred when I was 6. This was recognized both by my mother and myself which resulted in My mother yanking me from school the rest of the year (corporal punishment by teacher, bullying by peers in school for hearing impairment and learning impairment.)

6. learning impairment related to “dyslexia” Flipping of letters and numbers and flipping of order example 69 to 96, when writing it, not when seeing it.
“Short-term memory” One reads a sentence and hold on to it. Then the next and the next. By the end of the paragraph, he pulls together the meaning of the full paragraph. This is working memory. *He continues to read the full chapter and study it. Information is retained long enough to take a test and do well. This is short-term memory.* But, unless the information is reviewed and studied over a longer period of time, it is not retained. With more effort over time, the information might become part of a general body of knowledge. It is long-term memory.

Social definition of disability. Where it is not the impairments that disable a person, but the exclusion by society. You are disabled, based on, society choosing to exclude you from taking care of yourself. Example Employers refuse to hire as soon as they hear I had heart surgery and have ongoing cardiac issues, turning blue etc. It had nothing to do with, whether, I am capable of doing the job. Under employment law, I am required to tell them these things or I would be guilty of committing a crime if I withheld it. This is what makes me unemployable, Exclusion by employers not wanting to deal with the impairments.

The reason It is important to keep my background in mind while reading the following, is if you don't, you will view all content I share from a able body perspective. You will not see the discrimination from an able body perspective, due to the normalized nature of the discrimination. If you look at it from the perspective of my background You will without a doubt see the “normalized discrimination” due to the fact it affects you directly if you were in my shoes.


A little fact finding on why the ADA was created:
*Floor Statement Praising the Passage of the ADA September 7, 1989*
 "The Americans with Disabilities Act will end the American apartheid. The act has the potential to become one of the great civil rights laws of our generation. Disabled citizens deserve the opportunity to work for a living, ride a bus, have access to public and commercial buildings, and do all the other things that the rest of us take for granted. Mindless physical barriers and outdated social attitudes have made them second class citizens for too long. This legislation is a bill of rights for the disabled, and America will be a better and fairer nation because of it. "
20+ years later we still struggle to uphold this belief.
When the ADA was written:
*Findings and purposes of the Congress*
_Findings_

*(1)* Some 43,000,000 Americans have one or more physical or mental disabilities, and that number is increasing as the population as a whole grows older.
*(2)* _*Historically, society has tended to isolate and segregate individuals with disabilities, and, despite some improvements, such forms of discrimination against individuals with disabilities continue to be a serious and pervasive social problem*_.
*(3)* Discrimination against individuals with disabilities persists in such critical areas as employment, housing, _*public accommodations*_, education, _*transportation*_, communication, recreation, institutionalization, health services, voting, and _*access to public services*_.
*(4)* Unlike individuals who have experienced discrimination on the basis of race, color, sex, national origin, religion, or age, _*individuals who have experienced discrimination on the basis of disability have often had no legal recourse to redress such discrimination.*_
*(5)* _*Individuals with disabilities continually encounter various forms of discrimination*_,_* including outright intentional exclusion*_, the discriminatory effects of architectural, _*transportation*_, and communication barriers, _*overprotective rules and policies, failure to make modifications to existing facilities and practices, exclusionary qualification standards and criteria*_, segregation, and relegation to lesser services, programs, activities, benefits, jobs, or _*other opportunities*_.
*(6)* Census data, national polls, and other studies have documented that people with disabilities, as a group, _*occupy an inferior status in the society,*_ and are _*severely disadvantaged socially*_, _*vocationally, economically*_, and _*educationally*_.
*(7)* _*individuals with disabilities are a discrete and insular minority who have been faced with restrictions and limitations, subjected to a history of purposeful unequal treatment, and relegated to a position of political powerlessness in the society, based on characteristics that are beyond the control of such individuals and resulting from stereotypic assumptions not truly indicative of the individual ability of such individuals to participate in, and contribute to, society.*_
*(8)* _*the nation's proper goals regarding individuals with disabilities are to assure equality of opportunity, full participation, independent living, and economic self-sufficiency for such individuals*_.
*(9)* _*the continuing existence of unfair and unnecessary discrimination and prejudice denies people with disabilities the opportunity to compete on an equal basis and to pursue those opportunities for which the free society is justifiably famous, and costs the United States billions of dollars in unnecessary expenses resulting from dependency and nonproductivity.*_

_Purposesof the ADA: _

*(1)* To provide a clear and comprehensive national mandate for the elimination of discrimination against individuals with disabilities.
*(2)* To provide clear, strong, consistent, enforceable standards addressing discrimination against individuals with disabilities.
*(3)* To ensure that the federal government plays a central role in enforcing the standards established in this chapter on behalf of individuals with disabilities.
*(4)* To invoke the sweep of congressional authority, including the power to enforce the Fourteenth Amendment and to regulate commerce, in order to address the major areas of discrimination faced day to day by people with disabilities.

Title II - Public Services - (and public transportation) directed by the Federal Transit Administration (FTA); U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS); U.S. Department of Education (ED); U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD). *public paths “Includes the use of sidewalks.” covered by title 2
"

I am burned out I am going to bed. And I need to reset after the last two responses. I did.


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## disabled rider (16 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> I have spoken with the very people you say that what you are say is wrong. Why don't I just pass them your details, (You post to much elsewhere) and let them get in touch with you on this matter.
> 
> When the dis-abled side doesn't work out you revert to the poor side. If you want any chance at convincing people you are serious on this matter you are going to have to stick to one or the other, not swap as you see fit for your argument.
> 
> ...


 
MNDOT do not contact me, they can not contact me. They do not know how to contact me, they do not have my address or email or phone number, nothing. so claiming they will contact me is False.

What you received from the MNDOT was lip service, that doesn't really say all that much. I went into more detail than they did.
I told you rochester MN had a fight With the MNDOT to keep some of the critical access points, open. MNDOT IGNORED the needs of poor and disabled along with the needs of the city itself.

They will not listen. They will pretend to listen to get you to shutup
-----------------------------
-----------------------------

You have some serious comprehension issues when reading my posts making a lot of accusations that are not true about me as a person , my motivation and and so call poor character. etc.

I TOLD YOU THERE ARE MULTIPLE ASPECTS TO THIS THREAD THAT GO HAND IN HAND I AM NOT SWITCHING ANY TACTICS. POOR GOES HAND IN HAND WITH THE DISABLED FOR MOST OF US ON DISABILITY INSURANCE. You have to be BROKE to even get disability insurance.

What your failing to comprehend is the fact that its not just the poor disabled is effected by the 52 access its all the poor who can not afford cars that is effected. I am speaking for 2 groups in regards of 52. POOR and POOR DISABLED.

I am speaking only of the disabled regarding the sidewalks downtown.

I do not know why you have such a hard time understanding this. I AM NOT CHANGING TACTICS.

I SAID discrimination is related to the lack of sidewalk permission, Freedom of movement was related to 52 and the south intersection on broadway, for the poor using cycles. 2 different issues that goes hand in hand when you have a poor disabled person trying to take care of himself.. 

I SAID this thread is dealing with 3 things discrimination down town, freedom of movement related to 52, 63 , and third advocacy for removing policy/ barriers that cause exclusions. That I rolled them up into one thread to make it easier for me to keep track of because it is all interlinked.


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## mr_hippo (16 Oct 2012)

Deranged and deluded rider; I have to declare that I have two allergies. I am allergic to bull$h1t and crap! I neither give it nor do I take it. Isn't it time that you started again?
I can either take this thread on face value and believe that you are genuine which I do not. Perhaps this is some research for a degree or for a class project.
If you are, as you say, a utility cyclist why do you want to cycle about 100 miles between the Twin Cities and Rochester?
"If I take the frontage roads going parallel to 52 to the county rd 22/ "west circle drive" get on 52 there, past the barriers, that is a straight shot efficient safest route to oronoco and beyond" but remember you said that Hwy52 is unsafe so make your mind up!
Try http://maps.google.com/maps?oe=utf-...a=X&ei=RI98ULynEIm4yQGVxID4CQ&ved=0CCAQ8gEwAA
You have now said there are different ways of getting between the Twin Cities and Rochester and also give reasons why not to cycle those routes.
One thing I and possibly others have noticed about you is your list of ailments seems to be getting bigger but only after other posters have mentioned them!


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## Oldspice (16 Oct 2012)

Your in the USA and this is in most part if not all an English forum that deals with England (sometimes Europe ) so there's not much point in appealing as your issues (which you have many) do not relate to England.

Lot's of advice has been offered to you, but as usual your too blinkered to take heed of it. Have a nice hot bubble bath and a cup of tea.





Contact these chaps for advice, can't hurt.


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## Oldspice (16 Oct 2012)

PS What's wrong with public transport?

Found this on the net

*Elderly and Persons with Disabilities Program*







Public transportation can be difficult to access for persons with disabilities.
The Elderly and Persons with Disabilities Program assist elderly persons and the disabled with no or limited access to existing transportation services. The grant program provides 80 percent of wheelchair-accessible vehicle costs and recipients contribute 20 percent from non-federal funds.
The following Minnesota entities are eligible to receive grant funds: state/local governments, private nonprofit organizations, public transportation operators and tribal governments.
Grant documents and applications can be downloaded on the Minnesota State Department of Transportation website. Hard copy and electronic copies of the application must be submitted.
John Groothuis
Elderly Persons and Persons with Disabilities
Capital Grant Program (5310)
Coordinator
395 John Ireland Boulevard, MS 430
St. Paul, MN 55155
john.groothuis@state.mn.us
651-366-4187
dot.state.mn.us

Read more: Minnesota Disability Grants | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/list_6716537_minnesota-disability-grants.html#ixzz29QgZz62Y​


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## Oldspice (16 Oct 2012)

And this

*Election Assistance for Individuals with Disabilities Grant*






Polling places are sometimes inaccessible for disabled voters. EAID grants help bridge the gap between voters and outdated polling facilities.
The Election Assistance for Individuals with Disabilities (EAID) Grant is administered by the Office of the Minnesota Secretary of State. The grants are intended to make polling places more accessible to disabled voters and are available in accordance with the federal Help American Vote

 Act of 2002.
Entities eligible for the EAID grant are cities, townships and counties. Applications are available on the Minnesota Secretary of State’s website. Applications must include demographic information about the locality and a description of proposed improvements.
Office of the Minnesota Secretary of State
Adam Aanerud
615-215-1440
sos.state.mn.us

Read more: Minnesota Disability Grants | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/list_6716537_minnesota-disability-grants.html#ixzz29QgrBXGX​


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## Mugshot (16 Oct 2012)

Oldspice said:


> Your in the USA and this is in most part if not all an English forum that deals with England (sometimes Europe ) so there's not much point in appealing as your issues (which you have many) do not relate to England.


AKA the UK


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## green1 (16 Oct 2012)

Oldspice said:


> Your in the USA and this is in most part if not all an English forum that deals with England (sometimes Europe ) so there's not much point in appealing as your issues (which you have many) do not relate to England.


Is it really? Can you point me to the Welsh, Scottish and Northern Ireland site then please.


Mugshot said:


> AKA the UK


Don't go there.


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## classic33 (16 Oct 2012)

Oldspice said:


> PS What's wrong with public transport?


 
He's poor & can't afford it!


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## classic33 (16 Oct 2012)

Everthing I have said, concerning you has been found on here & else where. This is not the only place, by your own admission, that you have posted this "problem" on.
You assume & exclude that because we are over here that finding out a persons whereabouts isn't possible. Post as much as you do & it becomes easy.

If me and mr hippo are "ganging up" on you why would I be making calls to the relevant departments in the US, from the UK, seeking answers to questions raised by you. If you had shown up, where you claimed you have been, then the people I have spoken to were willing to go dowm & meet you. You excluded those bodies which are not on your agenda in all your replies, possibly because they will give you the one answer that you do not want to hear. That being what you have been told all along is correct at state & federal level. But then you don't want to hear that, do you.

You have made claims on here & elsewhere that you are "going down city hall", odd thing is you are now claiming you don't actually go down, you phone. That will be why those who are wanting to see you never get to actually speak to you.
MNDOT do have your details, as in one call to them based on the question asked, I had to make it clear to them that I was not you. Going sofar as to have to give a return call number, UK number & dialling code on which I could be contacted. They checked, I answered.

You cycle 100 miles(one way) is that correct at a speed of "2-3mph" That however doesn't stop you from over exerting yourself, heart & undiagnosed problem. Also "skeletal problems". These will all dis-appear when you hane the right to cycle on the pavement.

I'm now starting to get the feeling that you actually believe what you are saying and that could be dangerous.

NOTE. WITH REGARDS THE "TOO MUCH EFFORT REQUIRED" THAT IS BASED SOLEY ON YOUR POSTINGS.
Nowt else


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## wheres_my_beard (16 Oct 2012)

I have been really unsure as to whether to add any comments to this thread. I stumbled across it this morning and have been blown away by the complexity of the issues raised.

I have been working with people with physical disabilities, learning difficulties, and serious and profound mental health problems over the last 16 years, so feel I have some experience in some of the socio-economic aspects of this thread (social isolation, poverty, discrimination despite legislation, and the harm done by others to people who live with a disability). These all have a massive impact on people with disabilities, whether unseen or multiple & complex.

However, the issues of the impact of local & national transport and planning laws and the perceptions we have of ourselves (cyclists) as equal road users is an issue that affects all of us on this forum.

All of these issues are pretty uniform across the western world ( I don't think the Vietnamese for example worry too much about cycle lanes), so I think there universal nature makes them fair game to discuss on an international forum, despite local or national differences in law or implementation.

I have to say, Disabled Rider, that you have a great courage and motivation in raising the issues you have, and clearly have taken a lot of time to share and detail the issues you have faced. I'm sure that many other people with disabilities, whether cyclists or not, would benefit from someone with your energy advocating for them.

I don't want to get into suggesting what you should or should not do, as plenty of people have already given you some great advice (yes, it's all on this thread somewhere!). But all I can say is don't let the issues blind you to accepting help resolving them. You're talking about some absolutely massive issues of national and state law and planning & implementation. These issues are far too big to be fully dealt with by one person, no matter how passionate and well informed they may be. There are millions of disabled Americans out there, as well as countless organisations advocating for them, I'd imagine some of them would be interested in dealing with these issues and would welcome you and your energy in supporting them.

Anyways, back to the cycling. Some observations:

The planning laws relating to cycling are often poorly planned or executed.
Some cycle lanes are total BS.
Other road users get frustrated with us.
We feel victimised by them.
Pedestrians can be a pain in the ass.
Cycling long detours to stay safe really sucks.
Wind really blows.
Punctured make us all swear.
It's part of being a cyclist.
A normal cyclist.

Whatever you do, keep cycling. And don't forget to post on other threads!!


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## fossyant (16 Oct 2012)

I've completely lost the plot on this thread and gave up after page 10. Just can't keep up.


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## mr_hippo (16 Oct 2012)

OP
One of your favourite words seems to be ‘excluded’ and yet you directed this to Classic 33 “Do this one more time I will put you on permanent ignore”. What gives you the right to exclude any poster? 
“lets say I am using a trike I am only going 2-4 miles an hour” If you were doing that speed, I would tell you to release your brakes! Average walking speed is about 4 mph!
You love misquoting, don’t you? “You left out this (c) Persons riding bicycles upon a roadway or shoulder shall not ride more than two abreast and shall not impede the normal and reasonable movement of traffic and, on a laned roadway, shall ride within a single lane. (means you have to be right as much as possible downtown unless your doing 10 miles an hour or higher. At that speed your going weaving sporadically. All though 10 maybe on low side on main street which also happens to be a highway at the same time. What is "practicable” at 2-3 miles an hour is not at 10-20 miles an hour. What I was describing is the speed at which I am traveling when using examples. The distance to next object increases the faster you go. Thus moving left sooner in order to safely pass.)”
If you had even bothered to read section a: “Every person operating a bicycle upon a roadway shall ride as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway except under any of the following situations:
(1) when overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction;
(2) when preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway;
(3) when reasonably necessary to avoid conditions, including fixed or moving objects, vehicles, pedestrians, animals, surface hazards, or narrow width lanes, that make it unsafe to continue along the right-hand curb or edge.”
So you do not have to ride in the gutter
“The distance to next object increases the faster you go.” The sky on my planet is blue, what colour is it on yours? From my home in Korat to Bangkok is 300 kms if I drive, If I cycle there then it would only be about 100 kms and by helicopter about 800?
British motorways also have a wide shoulder, should cyclists be allowed on them?


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## mr_hippo (16 Oct 2012)

fossyant said:


> I've completely lost the plot on this thread and gave up after page 10. Just can't keep up.


There are lots of plots here http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=plot&_sacat=0&_from=R40


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## glasgowcyclist (16 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> I don't know why many of you folks have such a hard time following this. I run this same information past people at the farmers market and they get it right away, vast majority, aren't even cyclists. And the 2 people in the building I talk to, they get it. My psychologist gets it. City hall staff gets it, making them nervous. City attorney gets it..


 
If so many people local to you and in positions of authority 'get it', what are you doing here? Can we add our voice to yours with any hope of being effective? Would your authorities listen to representations from a foreign cycling forum, whose members are not affected by Minnesota cycling laws?

Minnesota is billed as America's Best Bike City; there must be plenty of people or organisations within easy reach who could help you. Then again, maybe that's the answer as to why you're here: you can tell us how wrong we are and how we don't get it because we're thousands of miles away. I have a feeling that were you to tell your story to a fellow Minnesotan commuting cyclist, able bodied or disabled, he'd tell you straight that you're talking nonsense.

You are content to misinterpret the law on cycling to read it as being compulsory to cycle against the curb and skim the doors of parked cars because it suits your agenda.

I did want to have a reasonable discussion with you regarding cycling but your rambling and indirect responses make that impossible.

Good luck and goodbye.

GC


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## roadrash (16 Oct 2012)

apart from the rest of your bullshlt ,,

STOP IT NOW. You ARE IMPLYING a PATTERN THAT DOES NOT EXIST. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I TOLD YOU IN THE FIRST POST NOT TO DO

SINCE WHEN DID YOU SET THE FORUM RULES ??????

I HONESTLY DONT THINK IVE EVER COME ACCROSS ANYONE AS SELF CENTERED AND ARROGANT AS YOU ... YOU SIR ARE AN ASS

thread now going on ignore ..i dont tolerate fools lightly


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## classic33 (16 Oct 2012)

The list of ailments have grown as this thread has grown.

I could, if I felt like it increase my list of dis-abilites to include:
Epilepsy(which limits medical treatment available, that includes surgery)
Bursitus, Osgood-Schlatters.
Three knee caps, two in one knee. One growing under the other, forcing the lower part of the leg to twist slowly out. Out by about 5 degrees when compared to the other(unaffected) leg. At some stage this will lock, without warning. The muscles slowly pulling it one way. Gets bad enough, I'm in trouble. A local anesthetic cannot be administered to release it due to complications. You want an idea of what its like, get someone to hold your leg, with the knee against a solid object and pull the lower half of the leg forwards, past its natural point of limitation. Do that & tell me what it feels like.
Cancer, for which treatment was denied on health grounds!
Heart Attacks, Two major ones over the last few years.
Toxic shock syndrome.
Severe anaphylatic shock to minor medications. Complications arise if given by someone else.
Oh, almost forgot. I've "died" twice. But I'm still here.

You know what despite the above, I class myself as one of the lucky ones. Others never leave. You make great play of the number of ambulance rides you have had. You're lucky you can still count the number. I've had that in a year at times. Everyone of them has involved someone else doing the phoning, not me. You seem able to phone, if that'st he case you're luckier than me.

There are others worse of than yourself, you have mobility. Yet you chose not to use it fully. *Too much effort required*. Won't look for work, tried & turned down only 29 times, *Too much effort required* to look for work Take the longer & safer way round. *Too much effort required. *Do you see a pattern emerging here?. Work, too *much effort required.*

*Stop feeling sorry for yourself, get off your backside & put some effort into something.*

You mention epilepsy as one of those dis-abilites that that you feel are covered by your agenda. As some-one who actually suffers with/from the condition, how do you know what its like. You cannot understand what it is like, so far it hasn't appeared in your list of dis-abilities sufferred by yourself, yet! Give it time though.

I have had 100% hearing loss due to head impact caused by the epilepsy. Have you ever had epilepsy as a result of hearing impairment? Not total loss as you first descibed. In the meantime do not say you are speaking for all those with epilepsy as you are certainly not speaking for me. Your comments on the condition would have most wanting to put as much distance between them and you as is possible. You insult a condition you know nowt about.

You are hunting in an area that is known to carry a disease on what you are hunting. Are you selling this meat at the farmer's market you mention? And just as important, do those in charge of the markets know you may be selling infected meat? You might be breaking the law
http://www.mneba.org/cwd.cfm


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## classic33 (16 Oct 2012)

green1 said:


> Is it really? Can you point me to the Welsh, Scottish and Northern Ireland site then please.
> Don't go there.


 
With Cycling, Technology, Business, Pets, Gardening, Photography & his newest Food. Don't you thinks he's got enough on he's plate, taking a photograph of his morning meal, grown in his own garden(some of which he gives to his pets). Before setting out to cycle to work where he gets to play with the latest "toys".


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## classic33 (16 Oct 2012)

mr_hippo said:


> There are lots of plots here http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=plot&_sacat=0&_from=R40


 Have you seen the first one?


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## Oldspice (16 Oct 2012)

green1 said:


> Is it really? Can you point me to the Welsh, Scottish and Northern Ireland site then please.
> Don't go there.


 
Calm down dear, your part of Europe. would have written UK if i could remember to write UK but i was tierd


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## on the road (16 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> *I do NOT have full mobility, I very clearly stated I have a skeletal problem. with nerve pinching. that causes vomiting, swelling and bed rest for period directly related to the duration past pain threshold I push. I walk 10 blocks, I am in a lot of pain. PAIN MEDS DO NOT HELP.* Then there is the cardiac issues. If I am not careful I can over tax my heart, Due to undiagnosed condition. *I been in and out of the ER since 26 for this. More than 10 ambulance rides since I was 26. 3 in the last 2 years.*


That's new, you've not mentioned that before. Next you'll be saying you have no arms and no legs


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## mr_hippo (16 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> Everyone of them has involved someone else doing the phoning, not me. You seem able to phone, if that's the case you're luckier than me.


Have I missed something here like the Second Coming? A miracle must have happened in Minnesota!
The OP has gone from 'moderately to profoundly deaf' OP states "It had gotten to the point it is very difficult to impossible to communicate verbally without hearing aids especially when lipreading is impossible" to "All of my interactions here in rochester mn, have been either over the phone or in face to face on "walk in basis" and all in the same post! Please remember that his $3000 hearing aids are useless. Praise the Lord
I believe the OP has short term memory loss as he cannot remember what he has said.


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## classic33 (16 Oct 2012)

Oldspice said:


> Calm down dear, your part of Europe. would have written UK if i could remember to write UK but i was *tierd*


 You appear to be still tired(note spelling), maybe its this thread. If it is a lie down in a blacked out room for a few hours may help. If it does let me know.


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## classic33 (16 Oct 2012)

Oldspice said:


> Go Vegan.


 Come on, get real. When did you last hear of going of on a hunting trip for carrots, spuds, turnips or anything else like that!
Sprouts at Christmas does'nt count by the way!


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## mr_hippo (16 Oct 2012)

on the road said:


> That's new, you've not mentioned that before. Next you'll be saying you have no arms and no legs


He cannot mention it yet because no other poster on here claims that they are deficient of a limb.
On a serious note and based on my 30 odd years as a nurse, the OP should visit the doctor or ER ASAP.
Based on all his signs and symptoms he has plumbum pendulosum caused by ergophobia: not fatal but untreatable


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## classic33 (16 Oct 2012)

mr_hippo said:


> Have I missed something here like the Second Coming? A miracle must have happened in Minnesota!
> The OP has gone from 'moderately to profoundly deaf' OP states "It had gotten to the point it is very difficult to impossible to communicate verbally without hearing aids especially when lipreading is impossible" to "All of my interactions here in rochester mn, have been either over the phone or in face to face on "walk in basis" and all in the same post! Please remember that his $3000 hearing aids are useless. Praise the Lord
> I believe the OP has short term memory loss as he cannot remember what he has said.


 
Its not the first one. Remember he's poor but can afford $3000 hearing aids. Also, in his post #483, page 25. He's corrected it to say "since birth". His origional post said "since before birth". Noticed that one re-reading what he'd said against a word copy(straight cut & paste into word). That would be an interesting one to try and explain.

On the subject of his hearing he has "basically 2/3 -3/4 total loss".
Now given that we cannot question his work, or lack of, which incidentally could get him out of the poor part of this post if he decided to take employment. Nor can we question his *Opening Post on this thread. *
Could he please make it clear as to why he is unable to cycle the longer way round on a bike. Given that he has limited mobility, 100 miles is a distance many able bodied on here would like to do, let alone with a utility bike/trike. So dis-ability cannot alone explain his reluctance to work or take the longer way round. Maybe all his effort is being put into finding ways to avoid having to work rather than hunting & selling meat from an area he knows could be infected at a farmers market.


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## classic33 (16 Oct 2012)

mr_hippo agree with the message, I've tried pointing out the same but it gets excluded.
Currently awaiting a call back from one of the places he claims to have actually visited. Time difference being the major factor on this one.


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## classic33 (16 Oct 2012)

There may be a new poster on this thread later on today, early tomorrow morning.


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## fossyant (16 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> There may be a new poster on this thread later on today, early tomorrow morning.



Interesting......


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## classic33 (16 Oct 2012)

fossyant said:


> Interesting......


As someone isn't willing to believe that what is being put on here is correct, they should be from the OP's home town/state. Hopefully they can correct where we have gone wrong.
I'm trying to get a few of the people involved in the decision process to come & give their explanations with regards what has been posted.
As has already been pointed out IP addresses can be checked & verified.


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## fossyant (16 Oct 2012)

Thanks for sticking with this cyclist 33. We are obviously all wrong. Right, wrong ?


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## classic33 (16 Oct 2012)

fossyant said:


> Thanks for sticking with this cyclist 33. We are obviously all wrong. Right, wrong ?


 Who's this cyclist 33 you mention


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## fossyant (16 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> Who's this cyclist 33 you mention



Doh.. Sorry classic33


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## classic33 (16 Oct 2012)

fossyant said:


> Doh.. Sorry classic33


 I think you're the fourth one to do that.


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## classic33 (16 Oct 2012)

fossyant said:


> Thanks for sticking with this cyclist 33. We are obviously all wrong. Right, wrong ?


 I'd say both to avoid excluding anyone!


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## mcshroom (16 Oct 2012)

What about those of us who are dihydrogen monoxide intolerant? Do we get included in this crusade?


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## Andy_R (16 Oct 2012)

mcshroom said:


> What about those of us who are dihydrogen monoxide intolerant? Do we get included in this crusade?


unfortunately not, as it would water down the results..............


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## mcshroom (16 Oct 2012)

Andy_R said:


> unfortunately not, as it would water down the results..............



THATS EXCLUSION!!!


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## Oldspice (16 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> You appear to be still tired(note spelling), maybe its this thread. If it is a lie down in a blacked out room for a few hours may help. If it does let me know.


 
I did it, although i doubt my spelling will improve (least it's better than my memory.....for now)


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## Andy_R (16 Oct 2012)

mcshroom said:


> THATS EXCLUSION!!!


oh sit down and have a nice cold drink of water............


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## classic33 (16 Oct 2012)

mcshroom said:


> THATS EXCLUSION!!!


 On what grounds!


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## roadrash (16 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> On what grounds!


 and you have to answer in no less than 3000 words


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## classic33 (16 Oct 2012)

roadrash said:


> and you have to answer in no less than 3000 words


 Even the OP could do that, how about knocking one of the zero's off.


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## classic33 (16 Oct 2012)

I have to ask this given that we're now up into the 600's. What happens when we get to Post 665, who should be poster number 666 or 666+1(667)?


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## Oldspice (16 Oct 2012)

DR this song always gives me a boost when i start to feel down. Hope they help


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## MrJamie (16 Oct 2012)

Google maps bicycling route plotter shows a number of routes in Rochester MN, including some ways to bypass the interstates' intersection to get to the southern part. I52 does really divide the town, but not really any differently to British motorways - you wont catch me cycling over J13/14 of the M1 too frequently anyway. There seems to be some decent traffic free routes up towards the fishing spot at Oronoco, maybe a mile off the direct way. The hill on the way to the fishing spot that "is so steep it faces the sky" on 18NW is I believe listed on strava as +2.2% http://app.strava.com/segments/1254151, a bit of a drag but something that gearing and taking slowly should make easy work of, especially compared to the rides lugging bambi and hunting gear around.

DR's whole arguement is based on how he has a certain method of transport that he feels is incompatible with the rules of the road, so they should change the rules to allow him specifically his "rights of movement". If someone disabled couldn't afford a bicycle but did happen to have an old land yacht (worked but had no resale value), should they be allowed to ride it on the pavements and hard shoulder too? Maybe someone disabled had a car that works but couldnt afford to tax/insure/license it and percieves a higher risk of collision, so wants to drive it down the shoulder to stay out of the way?


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## classic33 (16 Oct 2012)

Oldspice said:


> DR this song always gives me a boost when i start to feel down. Hope they help


 That Secret Code I gave you still working?


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## Oldspice (16 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> I have to ask this given that we're now up into the 600's. What happens when we get to Post 665, who should be poster number 666 or 666+1(667)?


 
Feel sorry for poster 666. Soon as they press reply, a hell mouth will open up on there computer screen and sucked them into a world of pain, fear and torment......Ok, ok...the cue at the local post office on pension day


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## Oldspice (16 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> That Secret Code I gave you still working?


 
I think so. I can still make calls useing it and my provider has not sent the police round.


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## roadrash (16 Oct 2012)

Oldspice said:


> Feel sorry for poster 666. Soon as they press reply, a hell mouth will open up on there computer screen and sucked them into a world of pain, fear and torment......Ok, ok...the cue at the local post office on pension day


 

are they not the same thing


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## mcshroom (16 Oct 2012)

no the post office queue is considerably worse!


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## classic33 (16 Oct 2012)

Oldspice said:


> Feel sorry for poster 666. Soon as they press reply, a hell mouth will open up on there computer screen and sucked them into a world of pain, fear and torment......Ok, ok...*the cue at the local post office on pension day*


Is that what they use round you're way to keep them in line?


Oldspice said:


> I think so. I can still make calls useing it and my provider has not sent the police round.


There's not a lot they can do, its built into the system & cannot be removed. Newer phones don't have this facility listed, but its still there, if you know where to look.

45 to go!


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## Oldspice (16 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> Is that what they use round you're way to keep them in line?
> 
> There's not a lot they can do, its built into the system & cannot be removed. Newer phones don't have this facility listed, but its still there, if you know where to look.
> 
> 45 to go!


 
Told you my spelling will still be off 

PS Thanks for making me laugh


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## jonny jeez (16 Oct 2012)

disabled rider said:


> I also need you, to understand, that my intelligence is much higher than by grammar.


 
Don't under sell yourself D.R. yo're intelligence isn't just high...its genius. After all you've managed to generate over 30 pages of comment from us lot over what appears to be a relatively straight forward set of questions.

That takes talent!

I have to admit that I stopped reading after page 10 and skipped to your last post. What is clear to me is that you have a set of issues in your neighbourhood that you want to solve. This is admirable. What is also clear is that for one reason or another you have a particular set of challenges that makes solving these issues very tricky. I sympathise. I wish I could offer some constructive assistance but I'm at a loss as to where to begin. I also though of attempting to summarise your posts in the hope that it may help to state your case, and in return gain some advice. But...and I'm being honest here...its just so time consuming.

And I think this is the nub of the problem. 

Communicating *with* and *for* you...is hard work. As such getting your point across clearly and relatively concisely, whilst not alienating your audience if what is keeping you back.

Is there any way that you could enlist the assistance of an some form of advocate to simplify your thoughts and help communicate them on your behalf.

I apologise if this sounds belittling. I don't mean it to, I know you are intelligent enough to know what you want to say, its just that the bit that involves getting it out of your head, is a little messed up. 

If my suggestion is offensive, I apologise...but my advice is focus on the objective not the path.


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## Saluki (16 Oct 2012)

The whole 666 thing is under debate anyway among historians and theologians. Many of the older latin copies of Revalations 13:18 say that the number is 612 (in that case that post is already in bother) but as most people believe the whole 666 thing anyway, the latin version is largely ignored, why let an older version of the Book of Revelation get in the way of a good story. Another theory is that the number, according to much older translations of the Book of Relelation, of the beast is 216 . 6 x 6 x 6.

Always makes me smile that everyone is so wary of the whole 666 thing but then say that they have no belief in God, the Devil or have never read the Bible anyway. So in that case, why do people worry so much about it.


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## classic33 (16 Oct 2012)

Saluki said:


> The whole 666 thing is under debate anyway among historians and theologians. Many of the older latin copies of Revalations 13:18 say that *the number is 612 (in that case that post is already in bother)* but as most people believe the whole 666 thing anyway, the latin version is largely ignored, why let an older version of the Book of Revelation get in the way of a good story. Another theory is that the number, according to much older translations of the *Book of Relelation*, of the beast is 216 . 6 x 6 x 6.
> 
> Always makes me smile that everyone is so wary of the whole 666 thing but then say that they have no belief in God, the Devil or have never read the Bible anyway. So in that case, why do people worry so much about it.


 
I was poster 612!!
Longshot was 216

Book of Relelation
Is that a recently found, never before printed part of the bible!


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## classic33 (17 Oct 2012)

He's gone elsewhere.


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## ianrauk (17 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> He's gone elsewhere.


 

On his bike?


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## classic33 (17 Oct 2012)

ianrauk said:


> On his bike?


But not on highway 52.

We'll never reach 666 now.


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## Longshot (17 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> Longshot was 216!



I'm a bigger disciple of Iron Maiden (or Vincent Price) than some stuffy old Latin Scholars or theologians so I'm sticking to 666. I'll keep an eye on the floor though, just in case!!


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## Crosstrailer (17 Oct 2012)

I never expected the beast to be wearing a Sky WC jersey and a bucket on his head.........


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## Andrew_Culture (17 Oct 2012)

I realise it's probably an horribly inappropriate juncture at which to draw attention to this, but on the ipad (using Tapatalk) this thread title is displayed thus:

*Discrimination and Loss of "freedom of movement" for poo*


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## Tigerbiten (17 Oct 2012)

mr_hippo said:


> He cannot mention it yet because no other poster on here claims that they are deficient of a limb.


I lost my left arm to a Tiger.
Hence I'm Tigerbiten ........... 

Does that count.


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## Dayvo (17 Oct 2012)

Tigerbiten said:


> I lost my left arm to a Tiger.
> Hence I'm Tigerbiten ...........
> 
> Does that count.


 
Yes, I remember you posting a link to the accident a few years ago! 

Do you have a prosthetic arm? (genuine question, BTW - my ex's step-father had his own factory in Stockholm making all kinds of prosthetics: it was one of the most advanced in Europe).


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## Tigerbiten (17 Oct 2012)

Dayvo said:


> Do you have a prosthetic arm? (genuine question, BTW - my ex's step-father had his own factory in Stockholm making all kinds of prosthetics: it was one of the most advanced in Europe).


I've two mecanical NHS arms.
A bog standard one as my everyday arm.
And a stripped down one, willout the strap and pullies which work the split hook, as my cycling arm.
There's a ball on the end of my left handle bar which the socket on the arm fits over, to give me control when I'm waving at traffic. Both brakes and back shifter are worked by the right hand, front shifter is under my heels.


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## colly (17 Oct 2012)

Any progress on getting to the point ?


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## Pat "5mph" (17 Oct 2012)

Tigerbiten said:


> I've two mecanical NHS arms.
> A bog standard one as my everyday arm.
> And a stripped down one, willout the strap and pullies which work the split hook, as my cycling arm.
> There's a ball on the end of my left handle bar which the socket on the arm fits over, to give me control when I'm waving at traffic. Both brakes and back shifter are worked by the right hand, front shifter is under my heels.


My helmet off to you in respect!
Wonder if your post will inspire DR. I certainly am inspired by you to improve my signalling, no more excuses of being scared of not controlling the bike from now on!


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## classic33 (17 Oct 2012)

Pat "5mph" said:


> My helmet off to you in respect!
> Wonder if your post will inspire DR. I certainly am inspired by you to improve my signalling, no more excuses of being scared of not controlling the bike from now on!


 What he said.


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## Rickshaw Phil (17 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> What he said.


I wasn't going to join this thread but have to say, you may want to reword that.


----------



## classic33 (17 Oct 2012)

Rickshaw Phil said:


> I wasn't going to join this thread but have to say, you may want to reword that.


 How & why?


----------



## Rickshaw Phil (17 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> How & why?


If you have a look at Pat's profile it may give a clue.


----------



## Pat "5mph" (17 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> What he said.


I am a she!


----------



## classic33 (17 Oct 2012)

Pat "5mph" said:


> I am a she!


I remembered only after posting, the second time, having looked at the posters name.
But a better comment on this thread was beaten by the one we both agreed on/with.

23 to go!


----------



## Pat "5mph" (17 Oct 2012)

Anyway, to keep on topic, was thinking about DR yesterday, on my commute to work.
It was raining heavily. I was riding down this industrial estate to avoid the dual carriage way along it.
Slowly coming up the way, on a shared path I don't normally take because you need to stop too many times at junctions, was a gent in a disabled 4 wheeled little how you call it, completely waterproofed (I hope for him!) by a raincover.
I wondered where he started off, as the nearest houses are about 2 miles away from that spot. I wondered how long the journey to the shops would take him (only 5 min for me on my bike), I wondered how he managed the water filled potholes, the wind, the traffic he would have to face further on when the path stops.
I wondered what his disability was, he did not look old enough to be just frail, if you know what I mean.
I wondered how he could see with the rain pelting down, how he could hear the traffic inside his plastic covered vehicle.
I wondered if he thought, before setting off, "sod this rain is never gonna stop, I'm going out ..."
I gave him a big smile, silently wishing him a safe trip: he must have thought I'm slightly


----------



## Pat "5mph" (17 Oct 2012)

Did you all read this?
There's a guy on the video that, like DR, cannot walk far, he seems to be cycling everywhere and enjoying every bit of it.


----------



## classic33 (17 Oct 2012)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Did you all read this?
> There's a guy on the video that, like DR, cannot walk far, he seems to be cycling everywhere and enjoying every bit of it.


No sign of any deer though!
Fair play to them, it shows what can be done, when you set your mind to it.


20


----------



## classic33 (17 Oct 2012)

colly said:


> Any progress on getting to the point ?


 No & we're not too certain there was a pont to get to.


----------



## Rickshaw Phil (17 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> No & we're not too certain there was a pont to get to.


That's why I wasn't going to get involved in this thread. I've read it from the beginning and it's just gone round in circles from the first post as far as I can see.


----------



## classic33 (17 Oct 2012)

Rickshaw Phil said:


> That's why I wasn't going to get involved in this thread. *I've read it from the beginning* and it's just gone round in circles from the first post as far as I can see.


 Well done you. But have you understood everything is the important question.


----------



## Rickshaw Phil (17 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> Well done you. But have you understood everything is the important question.


No, not really. Has anyone else?


----------



## Rickshaw Phil (17 Oct 2012)

Rickshaw Phil said:


> No, not really. Has anyone else?


Oh, apart from apparently it's everyone elses fault, including ours for not agreeing with him.


----------



## Oldspice (17 Oct 2012)

Rickshaw Phil said:


> Oh, apart from apparently it's everyone elses fault, including ours for not agreeing with him.


 Shame on me!


----------



## Pat "5mph" (17 Oct 2012)

Rickshaw Phil said:


> No, not really. Has anyone else?


In a nutshell: life is dire when you can't get your own way 
Also, some folks are more discriminated against than others: that's discrimination +1 (or -1, depending in which group you befall)


----------



## MrJamie (18 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> Well done you. But have you understood everything is the important question.


I got the bit about not standing too close to tigers 

13


----------



## classic33 (18 Oct 2012)

MrJamie said:


> I got the bit about not standing too close to tigers
> 
> 13


 OK then

11


----------



## mcshroom (18 Oct 2012)

No this is 11


----------



## classic33 (18 Oct 2012)

mcshroom said:


> No this is 11


 This is 9, after that we reach "the number"


----------



## perplexed (19 Oct 2012)

Just thought I'd post to help the count a bit...


----------



## gary in derby (19 Oct 2012)

discriminate! Not me i hate everybody!!


----------



## gary in derby (19 Oct 2012)

only joking, just the french lol


----------



## jay clock (19 Oct 2012)

just seen this, and read the opening post (FAR too long) and the next two or three, then yawned


----------



## classic33 (19 Oct 2012)

jay clock said:


> just seen this, and read the opening post (FAR too long) and the next two or three, then yawned


You must read it all, before making any comment on what has been posted. When you've done that, come back & let everyone else know if you managed to work out what it is
i) he's actually complaining of
ii) whether you actually understood what he was complaining about.

Then you can post on here.

4


----------



## Oldspice (19 Oct 2012)

Were doomed! The end is nigh


----------



## Andy_R (19 Oct 2012)

We're doomed I tell you, doomed.


----------



## Longshot (19 Oct 2012)

Woe to you oh Earth and Sea
For the Devil sends the Beast with wrath
Because he knows the time is short...


----------



## Longshot (19 Oct 2012)

Let him who hath understanding reckon the number of the Beast
For it is a human number
The number is...


----------



## Rickshaw Phil (19 Oct 2012)

666


----------



## Tigerbiten (19 Oct 2012)

+1 ......


----------



## Andy_R (19 Oct 2012)

poo....I missed it! Did the world end? Did Damien manage to enter the church?


----------



## classic33 (19 Oct 2012)

Andy_R said:


> poo....I missed it! Did the world end? Did Damien manage to enter the church?


Well the fires are burning near me.

Fire Service putting it out as I type!


----------



## classic33 (20 Oct 2012)

Saluki said:


> The whole 666 thing is under debate anyway among historians and theologians. Many of the older latin copies of Revalations 13:18 say that the number is 612 (in that case that post is already in bother) but as most people believe the whole 666 thing anyway, the latin version is largely ignored, why let an older version of the Book of Revelation get in the way of a good story. Another theory is that the number, according to much older translations of the Book of Relelation, of the beast is 216 . 6 x 6 x 6.
> 
> Always makes me smile that everyone is so wary of the whole 666 thing but then say that they have no belief in God, the Devil or have never read the Bible anyway. So in that case, why do people worry so much about it.


 http://www.remnantbride.com/theissue2/theissue2.5.html
1st Line
_"Since 666 is not the mark of the beast and 616 is the correct number in Revelation 13, then what is the "mark," and what does it truly mean?"_

I was poster 612 & 616!!
Longshot was 216


----------



## gary in derby (20 Oct 2012)

maybe the beast has buggered off? not been about for a while?


----------



## classic33 (20 Oct 2012)

gary in derby said:


> maybe the beast has buggered off? not been about for a while?


 
Maybe, but I'd a reason for trying to get the thread to 665.
"The beast" doesn't quite like the number that follows!!


----------



## mcshroom (20 Oct 2012)

Maybe the beast tried to read this thread from the start and just gave up


----------



## Oldspice (20 Oct 2012)

He came, brought peace and justice for all to this land, then rode off into the sunset. Sigh! Who was that masked man?


----------



## classic33 (20 Oct 2012)

Oldspice said:


> He came, brought peace and justice for all to this land, then rode off into the sunset. Sigh! Who was that masked man?


 Are we talking about the same person. One rode an "Iron Horse" & killed things that stood on four legs!
The other fought for truth, whilst riding on a four legged animal.


----------



## Oldspice (20 Oct 2012)

He came, brought fear into the forest, then rode off into the sunset (with Bambi's mummy and bits of the park ranger). Who was that masked man?


----------



## classic33 (20 Oct 2012)

Oldspice said:


> He came, brought fear into the forest, then rode off into the sunset (with Bambi's mummy and bits of the park ranger). Who was that masked man?


 Who "donated" the extra arm?


----------



## Oldspice (20 Oct 2012)

He's not keen on paintballers


----------



## Scoosh (20 Oct 2012)

My son has one like this:


----------



## classic33 (20 Oct 2012)

I've had three seperate mobile numbers ending in 666 & I was poster 612 & 616. My clocking in card was number 666.


----------



## Oldspice (20 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> I've had three seperate mobile numbers ending in 666 & I was poster 612 & 616. My clocking in card was number 666.


 
How do you manage to ride with a tail! aren't you afraid it will get trapped in the wheel


----------



## Pat "5mph" (20 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> I've had three seperate mobile numbers ending in 666 & I was poster 612 & 616. My clocking in card was number 666.


Your name is Damian?


----------



## Norm (20 Oct 2012)

Scoosh said:


> My son has one like this:
> 
> View attachment 14087


I want 799.2 - Tax Accountant of The Beast.


----------



## classic33 (20 Oct 2012)

Oldspice said:


> How do you manage to ride with a tail! aren't you afraid it will get trapped in the wheel


 Not as big a problem as you may think.


Pat "5mph" said:


> Your name is Damian?


 No, however I do have a relative by that name!


----------



## Oldspice (20 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> I do have a relative by that name!


 
I think i saw a documentary about him and his early cycling days


----------



## classic33 (21 Oct 2012)

Norm said:


> I want 799.2 - Tax Accountant of The Beast.


We're only on 686, with this one. You're going to have to wait a bit longer.


Oldspice said:


> I think i saw a documentary about him and his early cycling days


In between his horse riding(again) & driving periods I notice!


----------



## classic33 (21 Oct 2012)

To get back to the Opening Poster.
What was it he was after do you think. Given that seperate continents are involved, how could we have helped his "cause". OR, was it simply a matter of gaining approval from others, on pedal cycles, in his quest to continue with his lawbreaking?


----------



## Oldspice (21 Oct 2012)

I think he only came here to post his thoughts and replies. DR was so blinkered and fixated on what his questions are and what the answers 'Have to be' it didn't really matter what advice was offered. If it did not fit inside his box, then it does not exist.


----------



## mattobrien (21 Oct 2012)

Is it me or has this thread improved significantly. 

In all my years of Internet forum usage I don't think I have ever sen a thread as unusual as this one or an OP quite so 'unique'

It was either a world class case of trolling or the guy should take up trolling on a professional basis as be has a natural talent for it. 

I am so very glad it has descended into silliness upon the departure of the OP, it somewhat restores my faith in humankind.


----------



## Cyclopathic (21 Oct 2012)

Oldspice said:


> I think i saw a documentary about him and his early cycling days


I had exactly the same trike when I was a kid. Same colour, same wheels, same demonic rider, the same. I particularly remember the flat plate along the rear axle because it meant that I could also use it like a scooter (sort of). I think that there was even a trailer that went on to it but that might have just been tied on for me by a grown up. 
I would have been about the same age at about the same time as young Damien here. Ah happy days.


----------



## Rickshaw Phil (21 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> I've had three seperate mobile numbers ending in 666 & I was poster 612 & 616. My clocking in card was number 666.


Should we be worried about you? 

Or perhaps we can put in requests? There's a driver of a red Ford Escort van locally who could do with being cursed a bit.


----------



## classic33 (21 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> To get back to the Opening Poster.
> What was it he was after do you think. Given that seperate continents are involved, how could we have helped his "cause". OR, was it simply a matter of gaining approval from others, on pedal cycles, in his quest to continue with his lawbreaking?


Posted for Norm, to try & get this post as close as possible to his required number, 799.2. Don't know what we do about the .2 though.



Rickshaw Phil said:


> Should we be worried about you?
> 
> Or perhaps we can put in requests? There's a driver of a red Ford Escort van locally who could do with being cursed a bit.


 
Let you decide on the first, any help on the second required let me know & I'll see what I can do.
Those three phone numbers & the clocking in card number were all given to me, I didn't chose them!


----------



## classic33 (21 Oct 2012)

Me go now, got to work on a red escort van for someone!!


----------



## Rickshaw Phil (21 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> Me go now, got to work on a red escort van for someone!!


----------



## mr_hippo (21 Oct 2012)

If you dial 666, don't you get the emergency services in Australia?


----------



## Tigerbiten (21 Oct 2012)

mr_hippo said:


> If you dial 666, don't you get the emergency services in Australia?


----------



## classic33 (21 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> Me go now, got to work on a red escort van for someone!!


 


Rickshaw Phil said:


>





*"**Fola cas cas dubh agus flesh gorm,*​*Beidh mé curse má bhfeidhm agat chun dom.*​*De réir an lámh chlé agus an bia neamhghlan,*​*Feicfidh mé curse do chuid súl, beidh mé curse do luíonn,*​*Glaofaidh mé síos plague de cuileoga.*​*Fola dul dubh agus flesh dul gorm,*​*Olc as dom agus ar ais chugat*​*M'anam glan agus mise ar an tine,*​*Praiseach tú le cailleach tú dóite, liar! "*​*



*​


----------



## classic33 (21 Oct 2012)

Cyclopathic said:


> I had exactly the same trike when I was a kid. Same colour, same wheels, same demonic rider, the same. I particularly remember the flat plate along the rear axle because it meant that I could also use it like a scooter (sort of). I think that there was even a trailer that went on to it but that might have just been tied on for me by a grown up.
> I would have been about the same age at about the same time as young Damien here. Ah happy days.


 I remember the trailer as well, I had one. Trike & trailer that is!


----------



## Oldspice (21 Oct 2012)

mr_hippo said:


> If you dial 666, don't you get the emergency services in Australia?


 
So who do you get if you do dial 666


----------



## classic33 (21 Oct 2012)

Oldspice said:


> So who do you get if you do dial 666


 You don't want to ask that one & you don't realy want to know!
Or do you!


----------



## Oldspice (21 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> You don't want to ask that one & you don't realy want to know!
> Or do you!


 
I'm not afraid......honest!


----------



## Rickshaw Phil (21 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> View attachment 14112​*"**Fola cas cas dubh agus flesh gorm,*​*Beidh mé curse má bhfeidhm agat chun dom.*​*De réir an lámh chlé agus an bia neamhghlan,*​*Feicfidh mé curse do chuid súl, beidh mé curse do luíonn,*​*Glaofaidh mé síos plague de cuileoga.*​*Fola dul dubh agus flesh dul gorm,*​*Olc as dom agus ar ais chugat*​*M'anam glan agus mise ar an tine,*​*Praiseach tú le cailleach tú dóite, liar! "*​*
> View attachment 14112
> *​


Oooh, a proper curse. Take that red van man!


----------



## classic33 (21 Oct 2012)

Rickshaw Phil said:


> Oooh, a proper curse. Take that red van man!


*



*​*Haec persona*​*Phil me fecit iratos
Lucifer Producat dolorem amentia notum super caput eius!
ardrelamastro, martarastar, frocuss!*​*



*​​*You're not taking this serious, are you.*​


----------



## classic33 (21 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Edited due to spell error


----------



## Oldspice (21 Oct 2012)

I have a chicken and a virgin (don't mock me, next time give me more notice) so what time are we going to romp around the woods naked


----------



## classic33 (21 Oct 2012)

Oldspice said:


> I have a chicken and a virgin (don't mock me, next time give me more notice) so what time are we going to romp around the woods naked


Your chicken is "Southern Fried", by a man in white!

Don't bother with all that virgin nonsense, that tends to be more for the movies/TV. Other than that they were used as sacrifices to the Gods, not to put a curse on someone.



Oldspice said:


> So who do you get if you do dial 666


I have a missed call, was it you?


----------



## Rickshaw Phil (21 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> *
> View attachment 14117
> *​*Haec persona*​*Phil me fecit iratos*​*Lucifer Producat dolorem amentia notum super caput eius!*​*ardrelamastro, martarastar, frocuss!*​*
> View attachment 14117
> *​​*You're not taking this serious, are you.*​


I try not to take anything too seriously.

What does it mean really?


----------



## Pat "5mph" (21 Oct 2012)

From the top of my head's rusty latin:

to all folks that irritated me
the devil shall inflict insurmountable pain
Erm... hocus pocus abra cadabra?


----------



## classic33 (22 Oct 2012)

Pat "5mph" said:


> From the top of my head's rusty latin:
> 
> to all folks that irritated me
> the devil shall inflict insurmountable pain
> Erm... hocus pocus abra cadabra?


 
Close.


*This person Phil has made me angry!*​*Lucifer bring forth the pain of madness known upon his head!*​*ardrelamastro, martarastar, frocuss!*​ 
*



*​


----------



## classic33 (22 Oct 2012)

*O**h biotáille timeless i neamh agus talamh,*​*Bhí mé ag éagóir agus a lorg aiseag.*​*Bear síos ar mo misfortune namhaid is cúis le*​*Agus teip i ngach iarracht.*​


----------



## gary in derby (22 Oct 2012)

Just a thought? but do you think OP has gone hunting and the deer have got him back? just a thought. ? He could of been stampeded by a heard of them protesting about him cycling in the forest?


----------



## Cyclopathic (22 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> I remember the trailer as well, I had one. Trike & trailer that is!


Great, I thought it was a proper trailer to go with the trike so I'm glad you could confirm that. I remember now that I would go with my mum to the shops and I would get to carry a bit of shopping in the trailer. I had completely forgotten about that but I am still riding a bike and still sometimes use a trailer which brings my utilitarian use of a b/trike to something like 35 years.


----------



## Longshot (22 Oct 2012)

gary in derby said:


> Just a thought? but do you think OP has gone hunting and the deer have got him back? just a thought. ? He could of been stampeded by a heard of them protesting about him cycling in the forest?


 

Whoaaa!

Not only do we have the occult on this thread, we now have time travel!!


----------



## RiflemanSmith (22 Oct 2012)

[QUOTE 2073333, member: 45"]This reminds me of those old "have you seen Sid?" adverts.[/quote]
OMG I thought that I was the only one on the planet who remember them!
Every one I've always asked have never remembered them.
British Gas wasn't it last one he was on top of a mountain?


----------



## Rickshaw Phil (22 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> Close.
> View attachment 14124​*This person Phil has made me angry!*​*Lucifer bring forth the pain of madness known upon his head!*​*ardrelamastro, martarastar, frocuss!*​
> *
> View attachment 14124
> *​


Not sure I like that wording. I shall cease and desist from requesting curses.


----------



## gary in derby (22 Oct 2012)

A curse is only as powerful as your belief in them.


----------



## classic33 (22 Oct 2012)

Rickshaw Phil said:


> Not sure I like that wording. I shall cease and desist from requesting curses.


Stronger one required. 
How's the van doing though. They cannot believe in a curse!


----------



## classic33 (22 Oct 2012)

RiflemanSmith said:


> OMG I thought that I was the only one on the planet who remember them!
> Every one I've always asked have never remembered them.
> British Gas wasn't it last one he was on top of a mountain?


 
View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nedVpG-GjkE


----------



## classic33 (22 Oct 2012)

gary in derby said:


> Just a thought? but do you think OP has gone hunting and the deer have got him back? just a thought. ? He could of been stampeded by a heard of them protesting about him cycling in the forest?


 Maybe it wasn't the deer that did him, it may have been the bears. For being excluded. If it was the deer, could it have been a revenge attack from inside?


----------



## Rickshaw Phil (22 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> Stronger one required.
> How's the van doing though. They cannot believe in a curse!


Dunno, haven't seen it since the incident on saturday. I hope I'll never see it again to be honest.


----------



## mcshroom (22 Oct 2012)

This is a proper curse: -



> I curse their heid and all the haris of thair heid; I curse thair face, thair ene, thair mouth, thair neise, thair tongue, thair teeth, thair crag, thair shoulderis, thair breist, thair hert, thair stomok, thair bak, thair wame, thair armes, thais leggis, thair handis, thair feit, and everilk part of thair body, frae the top of their heid to the soill of thair feet, befoir and behind, within and without.
> I curse thaim gangand, and I curse them rydland; I curse thaim standand, and I curse thaim sittand; I curse thaim etand, I curse thaim drinkand; I curse thaim walkand, I curse thaim sleepand; I curse thaim risand, I curse thaim lyand; I curse thaim at hame, I curse thaim fra hame; I curse thaim within the house, I curse thaim without the house; I curse thair wiffis, thair barnis, and thair servandis participand with thaim in their deides. I way thair cornys, thair catales, thair woll, thair scheip, thjair horse, thair swyne, thair geise, thair hennes, and all thair quyk gude. I wary their hallis, thair chalmeris, thair kechingis, thair stanillis, thair barnys, thair biris, thair bernyardis, thair cailyardis thair plewis, thair harrowis, and the gudis and housis that is necessair for their sustentatioun and weilfair.
> 
> All the malesouns and waresouns that ever gat warldlie creatur sen the begynnyng of the world to this hour mot licht on thaim. The maledictioun of God, that lichtit apon Lucifer and all his fallowis, that strak thaim frae the hie hevin to the deip hell, mot licht apon thaimr. The fire and the swerd that stoppit Adam far the yettis of Paradise, mot stop thaim frae the gloire of Hevin. quhill thai forbere and mak amendis. The malesound that lichtit on cursit Cayein, quhen his slew his bruther just Abell saiklessly, mot licth on thaim for the saikles slauchter that thai commit dailie. The maledictioun that lichtit apon all the warlde, man and beist, and all that ever tuk life, quhen all was drownit be the flude of Noye, except Noye and his ark, mot licht apon thame and drouned thame, man and beist, and mak this realm cummirless of thame for thair wicked synnyes. The thunnour and fireflauchtis that set doun as rane apon the cities of Zodoma and Gomora, with all the landis about, and brynt thame for thair vile sunnys, mot rane apon thame, and birne thaim for oppin synnis. Tha malesoun and confusion that lichtit on the Gigantis for thair oppressioun and pride, biggand the tour of Bablloun, mot confound thaim and all thair werkis, for thair opppin reiffs and oppressioun. All the plagis that fell apon Pharao and his pepill of Egipt, thair landis, cornse, and cataill, mot fall apon thaim, thair takkis, rowmys and stedingis, cornys and beistis. The watter of Tweid and utheris watteris quhair thair ride mot droun thaim, as the Reid Say drownit King Pharoao and his pepil of Egipt, sersewing Godis pepill of Israell. The erd mot oppin, riffe and cleiff , and swelly thaim quyk to hell, as it swellyt cursit Dathan and Abiron, that genestude Moeses and the command of God. The wyld fyre that byrnt Thore and his fallowis to the nowmer of twa hundredth and fyty, and utheris 14000 and 7000 at anys, usurpand aganis Moyses and Aaron, servandis of God, not suddanely birne and consume thaim dailie genestandand the commandis of God and halykirk. The malediction that lichtit suddanely upon fair Absalon, rydant contrair his fader, King David, servand of God, throw the wod, quhen the branchis of ane tre fred him of his horse and hangit him be the hair, mot lie apon thaain trew Scottis men, and hang thaim siclike tha all the warld may se. The Maledictioun that lichtit apon Olifernus, lieutenant to Nabogodonooser, makand weair and heirchippis apon trew cristin men, the maledictioun that lichtit apon Judas, Pylot, Herod and the Jowis that chucifyit Our Lord, and all the plagis and trublis that lichtit on the citte of Jherusalme thairfor, and upon Simon Magus for his symony, bludy Nero, cusit Ditius Makcensisu, Olibruis, Julianus Apostita and the laiff of the cruell tirrannis that slew and murthirit Crits haly servandis, mot licth apon thame for thair cruel tiranny and murthirdome of cristin pepill.
> ...



That's a special one just for User9609


----------



## Rickshaw Phil (22 Oct 2012)

mcshroom said:


> This is a proper curse: -
> 
> That's a special one just for User9609


That's the one on the stone in Carlisle isn't it? That was installed shortly before the city has a series of mishaps including their worst flooding in many years if I recall.


----------



## mcshroom (22 Oct 2012)

It is. I cut of the paragraph about who was doing the cursing as it gets a bit long (1478 words).

Full curse is here: -
http://www.borderreivers.co.uk/Border Life/The archbishop's cursing..htm


----------



## Rickshaw Phil (22 Oct 2012)

So, possibly a bad time to admit I'm descended from border reivers.


----------



## classic33 (22 Oct 2012)

gary in derby said:


> A curse is only as powerful as your belief in them.


If that is the case, then how does a curse on something that does not exist at the time the curse is made, work out?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_Biddy_Early#Curse_of_Biddy_Early


----------



## classic33 (22 Oct 2012)

Rickshaw Phil said:


> Dunno, haven't seen it since the incident on saturday. I hope I'll never see it again to be honest.


If you don't see it again payment will be accepted in the usual manner.


----------



## Rickshaw Phil (23 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> If you don't see it again payment will be accepted in the usual manner.


Bag of wine gums? Two bags if you lift the curse directed at me.


----------



## classic33 (23 Oct 2012)

Rickshaw Phil said:


> Bag of wine gums? Two bags if you lift the curse directed at me.


 


Done,


*Per turnum** unius*​*Maledictionem fit*​*Per turnum duorum*​*Suus potentiae est per*​*Per turnum trium*​*Desinit esse*​ 
_*

*_


----------



## gary in derby (23 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> If that is the case, then how does a curse on something that does not exist at the time the curse is made, work out?
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_Biddy_Early#Curse_of_Biddy_Early


 
The fact that it doesnt exist when the curse is made means.
It doesnt know about the curse.
Therefore, doesnt worry about curse.
Therefore, turns out ok!


----------



## classic33 (23 Oct 2012)

gary in derby said:


> The fact that it doesnt exist when the curse is made means.
> It doesnt know about the curse.
> Therefore, doesnt worry about curse.
> Therefore, turns out ok!


 The sport existed, as did the person(Biddy Early) & County.
The sports governing body(GAA) & the country(still part of Great Britain & not recognised as a seperate country) did not exist at the time the curse was made.


----------



## gary in derby (23 Oct 2012)

again i will go back to my original statement. A curse is only as powerful as your belief in it.

after all, a curse is just suggestion that if you believe in its power, then becomes a self fulfilling prophesy.
belief is a very powerful thing


----------



## classic33 (23 Oct 2012)

RiflemanSmith said:


> OMG I thought that I was the only one on the planet who remember them!
> Every one I've always asked have never remembered them.
> British Gas wasn't it last one he was on top of a mountain?


I always thought it was this Sydney(Sid) & couldn't quite make out what he had to do with it. Final one, if I remember right was a kettle on the boil, as you say on top of a mountain.


----------



## classic33 (23 Oct 2012)

gary in derby said:


> again i will go back to my original statement. A curse is only as powerful as your belief in it.
> 
> after all, a curse is just suggestion that if you believe in its power, then becomes a self fulfilling prophesy.
> belief is a very powerful thing


 How then do you curse something that doesn't exist. If it doesn't exist at the time the curse is made it cannot believe in it, because it isn't there. They come along over 20 years after the curse was made, with the actual start of the curse being being 40 years after.


----------



## Longshot (23 Oct 2012)

Murphy died years ago but his curse still affects us


----------



## gary in derby (23 Oct 2012)

Murphys is a law
Murphys law, bassed on chaos theory.
if something can happen it probably will.


----------



## gary in derby (23 Oct 2012)

Again for a curse to work you need to believe in it.
So
As belief is based on faith rather than fact.!
you need to prove it.


----------



## Tigerbiten (23 Oct 2012)

"May you live in interesting times".

The best curse around


----------



## classic33 (23 Oct 2012)

gary in derby said:


> *Murphys is a law*
> Murphys law, bassed on chaos theory.
> if something can happen it probably will.


Mis-quoted the law! Most common mistake made with this one
"If there is any way to do it wrong, he will"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murphy's_law#Association_with_Murphy

Can you dis-prove the curse of Biddy Early?

Murphys is a stout. Guiness is the law!


----------



## classic33 (23 Oct 2012)

Norm said:


> I want 799.2 - Tax Accountant of The Beast.


 We're getting there, but its slowing down!


----------



## classic33 (23 Oct 2012)

Dante Inferno Test
http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-test.mv
I got the fith level


----------



## Trail Child (24 Oct 2012)

I'm banished to the 6th level. I am a heretic.


----------



## MrJamie (24 Oct 2012)

I got 6th level too, Classic is a relative angel in these parts


----------



## classic33 (24 Oct 2012)

MrJamie said:


> I got 6th level too, Classic is a relative angel in these parts


M'Lud, as evidence of the above remark may I refer you to pages 35 & 36 of this thread!


----------



## Spinney (24 Oct 2012)

6th level - if you look on the right of the little table you get at the end, 5th and 6th levelers score 'Very High' , 2, 3, 7, 8 & 9 score 'High'

So me, Mr Jamie and Trailchild are some of the worst!!! bwahahaha


----------



## gary in derby (24 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> Mis-quoted the law! Most common mistake made with this one
> "If there is any way to do it wrong, he will"
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murphy's_law#Association_with_Murphy
> 
> ...


was not quoting Murphys law. but simplifiying chaos theory.

pray tell if you have proof.


----------



## Rickshaw Phil (24 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> View attachment 14167​​
> View attachment 14167​Done,
> View attachment 14167​*Per turnum** unius*​*Maledictionem fit*​*Per turnum duorum*​*Suus potentiae est per*​*Per turnum trium*​*Desinit esse*​
> *
> ...


Much appreciated. Shall I fax the wine gums?


----------



## hotfuzzrj (24 Oct 2012)

I just found this topic today.
I got to page 5 and having managed not to gnaw my hands to stumps in order to prevent me reading more mind numbing drivel (that means you disabled rider) I thought FFS get to the last page and see if its still going on, and I found some talk of curses and going to hell..

What happened? Can anyone succinctly (that means not you disabled rider) explain
A) what they were on about it the first place
B) were they really just trolling?
C) have we blocked him now anyway, just in case?

Cheers. Anyone who has stuck with it for the duration has more patience than me.

If I did that 'are you going to hell' questionnaire I think some of my answers would have changed after all this guff.


----------



## Rickshaw Phil (24 Oct 2012)

hotfuzzrj said:


> I just found this topic today.
> I got to page 5 and having managed not to gnaw my hands to stumps in order to prevent me reading more mind numbing drivel (that means you disabled rider) I thought FFS get to the last page and see if its still going on, and I found some talk of curses and going to hell..
> 
> What happened? Can anyone succinctly (that means not you disabled rider) explain
> ...


How to sum up this thread in a few words? I'll try.

I don't think Disabled Rider is a troll, I think he honestly believes that the world is out to get him. The gist of what he was after is that he feels unsafe on the road to the point where he believes he will be knocked down and killled if he uses it and therefore he rides on the pavement (sidewalk over there). Unfortunately this is not legal in the US just as in Britain and following a complaint, the local police have asked him not to do it. He felt discriminated against because of this and having been thrown off 3 (or possibly 4?) other forums we ended up with the rant here.

We didn't agree with his view and Disabled Rider appears to have gone off in a strop. Since then everyone else has been larking about. The curses result from the thread getting up to post 666 (number of the beast) and we are now aiming for post 799.2 (tax accountant of the beast apparently).

That's it so far I think.


----------



## gary in derby (24 Oct 2012)

are we there yet?


----------



## hotfuzzrj (24 Oct 2012)

Oh excellent, that sums it up nicely. Thank you Phil!
I'm only posting another item just to get another post closer...


----------



## Rickshaw Phil (24 Oct 2012)

hotfuzzrj said:


> I'm only posting another item just to get another post closer...


Just like everyone else then. Once you get roped in to this thread it's hard to leave.


----------



## gary in derby (24 Oct 2012)

dont want to leave now the drugs have kicked in


----------



## hotfuzzrj (24 Oct 2012)

I'm much happier to keep posting now I know the weirdo has left the building!


----------



## Rickshaw Phil (24 Oct 2012)

gary in derby said:


> are we there yet?


No not yet. If you're bored you could play I-spy for a bit.


gary in derby said:


> dont want to leave now the drugs have kicked in


If the OP is still watching this thread he must be wondering what we put in our tea.


----------



## gary in derby (24 Oct 2012)

dont drink tea. But do put extra coffee in my coffee can stand a spoon up in it lol


----------



## Spinney (24 Oct 2012)

Don't drink tea! Blasphemy - go to the next circle of hell (do not pass go, do not collect £100)


----------



## mr_hippo (24 Oct 2012)

Any one found any reference to the OP in other forums? My dearch has been fruitless


----------



## 4F (24 Oct 2012)

mr_hippo said:


> Any one found any reference to the OP in other forums? My dearch has been fruitless


 
Nope tried everything from Disabled_ Rider, Deluded_Rider to www.weshootdeer.com and so far nothing


----------



## mr_hippo (24 Oct 2012)

Nerer had a curse but have rented two; a Ford Granada curse to carry dad's coffin and a Volvo curse for mum's!


----------



## Oldspice (24 Oct 2012)

mr_hippo said:


> Any one found any reference to the OP in other forums? My dearch has been fruitless


 
I hope your 'dearch' gets better soon. Try putting cream on it.


----------



## Andy_R (24 Oct 2012)

ooo...nothing worse than a fruity "dearch"...


----------



## Oldspice (24 Oct 2012)

Andy_R said:


> ooo...nothing worse than a fruity "dearch"...


 
That's what happens when you leave it so long before seeing the chemist


----------



## Trail Child (24 Oct 2012)

I.....can't......stop......giggling!


----------



## Pat "5mph" (24 Oct 2012)

Phil, you forgot to tell about Bambi's Mum! her limp, dead body dragged up the elevator!
...said elevator being out of order, causing a loss of freedom of movement to all poor and disabled. If you happen to be disabled and rich, the elevator would be working ....


----------



## Rickshaw Phil (24 Oct 2012)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Phil, you forgot to tell about Bambi's Mum! her limp, dead body dragged up the elevator!
> ...said elevator being out of order, causing a loss of freedom of movement to all poor and disabled. If you happen to be disabled and rich, the elevator would be working ....


So I did.
There was also the thing about cycles being banned from the road to the hunting grounds, preventing him from being able to shoot Bambi's mum in the first place. (Last time I looked, guns were expensive things. He didn't moan about not being able to afford ammunition?)


----------



## Pat "5mph" (24 Oct 2012)

Rickshaw Phil said:


> So I did.
> There was also the thing about cycles being banned from the road to the hunting grounds preventing him from being able to shoot Bambi's mum in the first place. (Last time I looked, guns were expensive things. He didn't moan about not being able to afford ammunition?)


Oh, did not think about that, you are right!
Isn't hunting the sport of the affluent land owner?


----------



## Oldspice (24 Oct 2012)




----------



## Cyclopathic (24 Oct 2012)

7th level of hell. Do I win?


----------



## trampyjoe (24 Oct 2012)

Rickshaw Phil said:


> How to sum up this thread in a few words? I'll try.
> 
> I don't think Disabled Rider is a troll, I think he honestly believes that the world is out to get him. The gist of what he was after is that he feels unsafe on the road to the point where he believes he will be knocked down and killled if he uses it and therefore he rides on the pavement (sidewalk over there). Unfortunately this is not legal in the US just as in Britain and following a complaint, the local police have asked him not to do it. He felt discriminated against because of this and having been thrown off 3 (or possibly 4?) other forums we ended up with the rant here.
> 
> ...


Are you sure? He could just be composing his next post.


----------



## deptfordmarmoset (24 Oct 2012)

trampyjoe said:


> Are you sure? He could just be composing his next post.


Better give admin a call - may need to free up memory space on the server...


----------



## Rickshaw Phil (24 Oct 2012)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> Better give admin a call - may need to free up memory space on the server...


I was just about to take a sip of my drink. Lucky escape there.


----------



## Oldspice (24 Oct 2012)

Probably got busted by 'Fish and Wildlife' police for hunting with an illegal firearm. He did say he had been under mental health care and seeing a Psychologist.

The following list of prohibited personsare ineligible to own firearms under the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act.

Those convicted of felonies and certain misdemeanors except where state law reinstates rights, or removes disability.
Fugitives from justice
Unlawful users of certain depressant, narcotic, or stimulant drugs
Those adjudicated as mental defectives or incompetents or those committed to any mental institution and currently containing a dangerous mental illness.
Non-US citizens, unless permanently immigrating into the U.S. or in possession of a hunting license legally issued in the U.S.
Illegal Aliens
Those who have renounced U.S. citizenship
Minors defined as under the age of eighteen for long guns and the age of twenty-one for handguns, with the exception of Vermont, eligible at age sixteen.
Persons convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence (an addition)
Persons under indictment for a crime punishable by imprisonment for more than one year are ineligible to receive, transport, or ship any firearm or ammunition
Those who already own firearms would normally be required to relinquish them upon conviction


----------



## Pat "5mph" (24 Oct 2012)

trampyjoe said:


> Are you sure? He could just be composing his next post.


Can't stop laughing: stop it all of you, my cat is wondering what's going on!


----------



## classic33 (24 Oct 2012)

hotfuzzrj said:


> I'm much happier to keep posting now I know the weirdo has left the building!


 He's not left. Its just he's not signing in & posting anything else, yet!


----------



## classic33 (24 Oct 2012)

mr_hippo said:


> Any one found any reference to the OP in other forums? My dearch has been fruitless


 He was disabled rider on this thread only. Similar threads have appeared elsewhere, with similar results.


----------



## Crosstrailer (24 Oct 2012)

Oldspice said:


> Probably got busted by 'Fish and Wildlife' police for hunting with an illegal firearm. He did say he had been under mental health care and seeing a Psychologist.
> 
> The following list of prohibited personsare ineligible to own firearms under the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act.
> 
> ...


 

does Lance own a firearm do we know ?


----------



## classic33 (24 Oct 2012)

Oldspice said:


> Probably got busted by 'Fish and Wildlife' police for hunting with an illegal firearm. He did say he had been under mental health care and seeing a Psychologist.
> 
> The following list of prohibited personsare ineligible to own firearms under the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act.
> 
> ...


 
Don't know about posting another persons details online. But for those who have been here since the start, remember the farmers market he mentioned. One way to find him.

Also, there is the fact that the deer he was hunting/killing were in an area known to be infected with a disease similar to "Mad Cow Disease"(TSE). Would you want to eat it? http://www.health.state.mn.us/divs/idepc/diseases/cwd/index.html
Maybe the deer have done him in(out! Think about that bit). However my money is still on the bears being the guilty party, on the grounds of "exclusion".



Pat "5mph" said:


> Can't stop laughing: stop it all of you, my cat is wondering what's going on!


I'm not even going to ask.


----------



## Rickshaw Phil (24 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> Also, there is the fact that the deer he was hunting/killing were in an area known to be infected with a disease similar to "Mad Cow Disease"(TSE). Would you want to eat it?


I'd forgotten about that bit, and the yanks had the gall to have a go at us about the beef.


----------



## classic33 (24 Oct 2012)

Rickshaw Phil said:


> I'd forgotten about that bit, and the yanks had the gall to have a go at us about the beef.


 Just dropping a few clues for those who may like to find him. If you reeeallllly want to!


----------



## classic33 (24 Oct 2012)

For those who want it, I have Chapter One of Seven available.
All 47,914 words of his own work, no-one elses work.


----------



## Pat "5mph" (24 Oct 2012)

Classic33, you are getting obsessed!


----------



## summerdays (24 Oct 2012)

And you forgot the bit about how the disabled cyclists are discriminated against, and yet he wanted the right to ride on the pavement for himself rather than for all cyclists.


----------



## classic33 (24 Oct 2012)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Classic33, you are getting obsessed!


About what?
I've made phonecalls to various bodies, in the US, ranging from his local sheriff's office to his local health department. Contacted state(Minnesota) offices, which he said were wrong.
Gone up to federal level, with some calls. Awaiting a response from the state governor, Mark Dayton. 75 Rev Dr Martin Luther King Jr Blvd #130, St Paul, MN 55155 United States
(800) 657-3717
And President Obama himself.
Law enfocement agencies at county, state & federal level. I know the building he lives in, the floor he lives on, the colour of his curtains, in need of a wash(tobbaco smoke!). His lifts do not work all the time & the meat which I have to assume is being gutted & cleaned in an apartment, without the proper refigeration required, is/was being sold at a "local farmers market".
And you sit there, telling me I'm getting obsessed!
_*Edited at 22:10*_, missed the address of the Governors Office. Contact details also include a toll free number for contacting him.











Its too late for that now, save yourself!


----------



## Pat "5mph" (24 Oct 2012)

Noooo! He's selling contaminated, illegally butchered meat at a farmer's market?
He smokes? After all that palava about disgrounted neighbourghs wanting to smoke on the same pavement he wants to ride on? 
You could make a fortune as a private investigator without ever leaving your home - or broadband connected location.
Me, I'm safe enough: got BigCat to protect me


----------



## classic33 (24 Oct 2012)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Noooo! He's selling contaminated, illegally butchered meat at a farmer's market?
> He smokes? After all that palava about disgrounted neighbourghs wanting to smoke on the same pavement he wants to ride on?
> You could make a fortune as a private investigator without ever leaving your home - or broadband connected location.
> Me, I'm safe enough: got BigCat to protect me
> View attachment 14254


_#566, near the bottom._
_"hunting zone 602 in the CWD(chronic wasting disease) zone where I will most likely be hunting due to the safest access for me."_

Picture taken 11:30-12:30. But you have glass nearby. On a slightly overcast day.
Question is, whats that thing on the cats collar for?


----------



## Pat "5mph" (24 Oct 2012)

Classic33: how could I possibly remember at what time the picture was taken? 
It was taken with my (previous) phone, no date imprinted. 
I live in Scotland, overcast is our natural weather status, the "slightly" for us means it was actually a nice day 
Was BigCat wearing a collar? If so, it must have been a plain flea control one, no other thing attached.


----------



## Pat "5mph" (24 Oct 2012)

Ah, yes, the glass: got windows


----------



## Rickshaw Phil (24 Oct 2012)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Ah, yes, the glass: got windows


No. really? You don't keep the draughts out with shutters?


----------



## Pat "5mph" (24 Oct 2012)

Rickshaw Phil said:


> No. really? You don't keep the draughts out with shutters?


Nay, that is in my other house, in Italy


----------



## classic33 (24 Oct 2012)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Classic33: how could I possibly remember at what time the picture was taken?
> It was taken with my (previous) phone, no date imprinted.
> I live in Scotland, overcast is our natural weather status, the "slightly" for us means it was actually a nice day
> Was BigCat wearing a collar? If so, it must have been a plain flea control one, no other thing attached.


 
Who needs a date, I simply gave the time. Date wise, the best I'm able to give would be second half of April - first week in May.

The glass caused the light to scatter, causing multiple shadows suggesting it was in a porch or siimilar area. Ground is also dry.



Pat "5mph" said:


> You could make a fortune as a private investigator without ever leaving your home - or broadband connected location.
> Me, I'm safe enough: got BigCat to protect me
> View attachment 14254


 
As for the above, a number of people have said this & my last four employers. Used to do this more with books, the internet has just speeded the process up. But you still have to look in the right places. 



Rickshaw Phil said:


> No. really? You don't keep the draughts out with shutters?


 Its to avoid the window tax!


----------



## Pat "5mph" (24 Oct 2012)

Yes, how did you know that? In Italy there is (or used to be) a tax for shop windows!


----------



## classic33 (24 Oct 2012)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Yes, how did you know that? In Italy there is (or used to be) a tax for shop windows!


 That would be telling. As for the picture taken on your old phone, now I understand. What does 9# give on your current handset. I know, but do you?

Calling Norm. Getting close, #792


----------



## Pat "5mph" (24 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> That would be telling. As for the picture taken on your old phone, now I understand. What does 9# give on your current handset. I know, but do you?


 
Ok, now I don't know what you mean at all. What is 9#?
I also remember that the picture was taken in 2010 - checked file date on laptop - August was when I downloaded it to file, could have taken in in late April, May, doubt it though, because of the tomato plants here:







see, in the wee greenhouse, my tomato plants are only in small pots in May.
For weather based investigations, remember the light is different here than in England.
I think I could have used an INQ phone for the photo.


----------



## classic33 (25 Oct 2012)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Ok, now I don't know what you mean at all. *What is 9#?*
> I also remember that the picture was taken in 2010 - checked file date on laptop - August was when I downloaded it to file, could have taken in in late April, May, doubt it though, because of the tomato plants here:
> 
> View attachment 14258
> ...


9# is the nine key followed by the #(hash) key

That would make it the last week in August then. No tomato plants visible in the first picture posted.
Why would the light(natural) be different in Scotland than it is in England. Same source(not tomato before anyone cuts in) for both countries.

Norm, 794 & closing!


----------



## Pat "5mph" (25 Oct 2012)

9# gives me a phone number, 0782,,, don't know who's number it is


----------



## Pat "5mph" (25 Oct 2012)

Pat "5mph" said:


> 9# gives me a phone number, 0782,,, don't know who's number it is


It's a colleague's number


----------



## Pat "5mph" (25 Oct 2012)

The natural light is different, depending on altitude (or something like that ) I know it's different like all us foreigner girls know the light here needs different clothes and hair colour than abroad, if you know what I mean?
Have we reached the fatal number?


----------



## classic33 (25 Oct 2012)

Pat "5mph" said:


> It's a colleague's number


Its an O2 number.

Remember post 799 goes to Norm. He asked for it!

Norm,#798

We leave it hanging here


----------



## Norm (25 Oct 2012)

Who, me?


----------



## gary in derby (25 Oct 2012)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Ok, now I don't know what you mean at all. What is 9#?
> I also remember that the picture was taken in 2010 - checked file date on laptop - August was when I downloaded it to file, could have taken in in late April, May, doubt it though, because of the tomato plants here:
> 
> View attachment 14258
> ...


wall needs repointing


----------



## Pat "5mph" (25 Oct 2012)

gary in derby said:


> wall needs repointing


Don't tell the factor, or I'll get a big bill


----------



## gary in derby (25 Oct 2012)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Don't tell the factor, or I'll get a big bill


Ooopps


----------



## classic33 (25 Oct 2012)

Norm said:


> Who, me?


 Is that all you wanted to do!!




Pat "5mph" said:


> The natural light is different, depending on altitude (or something like that ) I know it's different like all us *foreigner girls* know the light here needs different clothes and hair colour than abroad, if you know what I mean?
> Have we reached the fatal number?


Your're not from North of the Border then.


----------



## Rickshaw Phil (25 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> Your're not from North of the Border then.


Probably depends which border you're talking about.


----------



## Norm (25 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> Is that all you wanted to do!!


It took me all day to come up with that.


----------



## Pat "5mph" (25 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> Is that all you wanted to do!!
> 
> Your're not from North of the Border then.


nay, I live in the southside


----------



## Oldspice (25 Oct 2012)

Since DR is not coming back. Can we turn this thread into a 'Animal safe thread'
Mrs Squirrel has been worried about Mr Squirrel hanging round Mr Armstrong.


----------



## classic33 (25 Oct 2012)

Norm said:


> It took me all day to come up with that.


 All day! You asked for it on Saturday.


Norm said:


> I want 799.2 - Tax Accountant of The Beast.


----------



## classic33 (25 Oct 2012)

Oldspice said:


> Since DR is not coming back. Can we turn this thread into a 'Animal safe thread'
> Mrs Squirrel has been worried about Mr Squirrel hanging round Mr Armstrong.


What have you got against squirrels?
Have to say though, drowning the OP in the sort pictured might have been tricky.

I'll not say what my member number is.

One question with regards to the OP. Does anyone know what his like was received for & from whom? And will that person own up or stay quiet.


----------



## Rickshaw Phil (25 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> One question with regards to the OP. Does anyone know what his like was received for & from whom? And will that person own up or stay quiet.


It was for this post and came from Glasgowcyclist.


----------



## classic33 (25 Oct 2012)

Rickshaw Phil said:


> It was for this post and came from Glasgowcyclist.


 I've read & re-read this thread & I managed to miss that.
I asked the question because some posts on here were removed & thought it might have been one of those.


----------



## Rickshaw Phil (25 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> I've read & re-read this thread & I managed to miss that.
> I asked the question because some posts on here were removed & thought it might have been one of those.


I tried a bit of detecting and was able to go almost straight to it. It's nice when it works.


----------



## classic33 (25 Oct 2012)

Nice to know I'm not the only one doing a bit of detecting on this thread.



Mugshot said:


> View attachment 13312


Taken from page 2, and still waiting. Any idea when it will be delivered?
Its a good job its not a parcel we're waiting on.


----------



## ianrauk (27 Oct 2012)

The OP's been spotted.


----------



## summerdays (27 Oct 2012)

ianrauk said:


> The OP's been spotted.
> 
> View attachment 14412


That can't be him, that cyclist is cycling on the road and not even in the gutter!


----------



## Oldspice (27 Oct 2012)

Back in my dy people used to ride with traffic cones on there head.


----------



## summerdays (27 Oct 2012)

Somewhere I have a photo of a man doing that -but I can't find it!!


----------



## classic33 (28 Oct 2012)

ianrauk said:


> The OP's been spotted.
> 
> View attachment 14412


Ajay posted a similar picture on P5 of this, #91.
Looks to be the same type of bike. Only he's on the wrong side of the road in that one
The deer however looks too light. Not bad though for someone with a "weak skeletal structure"!

Could this be him? bike has been modified to carry a deer!


----------



## glasgowcyclist (30 Oct 2012)

classic33 said:


> One question with regards to the OP. Does anyone know what his like was received for & from whom? And will that person own up or stay quiet.


 


Rickshaw Phil said:


> It was for this post and came from Glasgowcyclist.


 
Yes, that was from me.

I liked it partly because it was funny but mostly because it was uncharacteristically brief.


GC


----------



## classic33 (30 Oct 2012)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Yes, that was from me.
> 
> I liked it partly because it was funny but mostly because it was uncharacteristically brief.
> 
> ...


I thought it may have been one of the posts that were removed, which is why I asked. Rickshaw phil pointed out the obvious(once found) to me. 


classic33 said:


> I've read & re-read this thread & I managed to miss that.
> I asked the question because some posts on here were removed & thought it might have been one of those.


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## classic33 (1 Nov 2012)

For the OP, should he return.
Eric(46), there's more than you doing, what you're doing.


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## Oldspice (6 Nov 2012)

DR if you are out there, were you successful.


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## on the road (6 Nov 2012)

Maybe they've sectioned him


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## classic33 (6 Nov 2012)

Oldspice said:


> DR if you are out there, were you successful.


 What at?



on the road said:


> Maybe they've sectioned him


My money's on the bears for being excluded, with the deer coming a close second with an "inside job".


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## Oldspice (6 Nov 2012)

on the road said:


> Maybe they've sectioned him


 
I see you are being a positive advocate of mental heath


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## Hitchington (14 Nov 2012)

Oldspice said:


> Back in my dy people used to ride with traffic cones on there head.


 They still do (from the "Headwind" thread)


Hitchington said:


> I put a traffic cone on my head. Makes me more aerodynamic and I can cut through the pesky headwind like an orange Concorde or something.


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## Brandane (14 May 2013)

I linked to this from another post, and nearly lost the will to live half way through the OP, never mind reading 42 pages! Don't know about the disability part, but does cycling discriminate against the poor? Of course it does! Just like Ferrari. I asked if I could have one but they said I didn't have enough money. Discriminatory gits.


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## Rickshaw Phil (14 May 2013)

Nooooooo. Don't start it all off again.


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## Brandane (14 May 2013)

Rickshaw Phil said:


> Nooooooo. Don't start it all off again.


 
Ooops, sorry! Just noticed that the last post was on 14 November 2012.


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## Nihal (14 May 2013)

Seeing this i must ask..........what is the maximum length possible for a single post ?


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## Rickshaw Phil (14 May 2013)

Brandane said:


> Ooops, sorry! Just noticed that the last post was on 14 November 2012.


I wasn't being serious.

It does have the potential to run and run once it gets going though so we must be careful.


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## Shaun (14 May 2013)

Not any more!


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