# Silly Hills Why so Hard?



## Lizban (21 May 2010)

Now I don't mind going up a hill or two but does anyone else find the silly little hills harder than nasty ones?

For example (for London readers) the Farringdon Road from Blackfriars up towards Kings X.

Not very steep but horrible!

Anyone else suffer from small hill syndrome?


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## martint235 (21 May 2010)

I wouldn't call Shooters Hill a small hill but it's definitely silly! It's not like you're climbing over a ridge or anything, it's just a round hill in the middle of an otherwise fairly flat landscape that I have to go over twice a day!! It has no purpose whatsoever apart from to hurt your legs. Apparently the views from the top are very good but by the time I get to the top I'm concentrating on breathing!


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## fossyant (21 May 2010)

Hills...London......


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## adds21 (21 May 2010)

Yes! I do.

On my commute home, I (usually) cycle over and back down an 800 foot hill (Dundry, for those in Bristol), just to avoid a "horrible" 50 foot climb the other way. Okay, so it's not the only reason I go that way, but it's a real contributing factor.


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## arallsopp (21 May 2010)

I don't mind small hills, unless I'm pulling too much weight or am knackered. Big hills are easier for me as they give a definite target. Focus, spin, claim the glory.

There's the odd little one that just robs me of speed for no good reason. The kind of day when you'd swear your brakes are rubbing, tyres down, saddle positioned wrong. No glory. No challenge. But near impossible


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## Davidc (21 May 2010)

I've notied that. Sometimes if I'm cycling to Bridgwater I'll go over the top of the Quantocks including a 1 in 5 rather than go up and down the silly little hills round the end*.

I can always use the canal instead but the path's a bit rough for my backside and I can't go as fast.

*Could also have something to do with enjoying the downhill on the other side though .


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## Lizban (21 May 2010)

fossyant said:


> Hills...London......


My point exaclty - the big hills greast challenge the little ones horrid!


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## gavintc (21 May 2010)

I have two hills to get over on my commute - both are 9% at the steepest and are generally 6-8% for the majority of the climb. I find them irritatingly sapping on energy and I know I should be able to do better, but have a mental block on these hills. Sadly, my downhill bit on both hills is speed restricted and I have slower cars to contend with.


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## NigC (21 May 2010)

Yes, about the first two-thirds of my journey in is on a small incline that you hardly notice, but if I'm not quite feeling 100% it can really sap the energy. Of course, it does make it a nice journey home.

On the flip side, coming home there are two larger hills that take a fair bit of effort to climb, but as these are obvious and relatively short, they act as motivators to put the effort in. Then once these have been cleared, it's downhill the rest of the way home


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## AndyCarolan (21 May 2010)

I prefer to get hills out of the way quickly 

Fortunately norfolk is pretty flat


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## Lizban (21 May 2010)

martint235 said:


> I wouldn't call Shooters Hill a small hill but it's definitely silly! It's not like you're climbing over a ridge or anything, it's just a round hill in the middle of an otherwise fairly flat landscape that I have to go over twice a day!! It has no purpose whatsoever apart from to hurt your legs. Apparently the views from the top are very good but by the time I get to the top I'm concentrating on breathing!



Shooters Hill is horrid esp. when you have come up through the park or over Blackheath Hill


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## martint235 (21 May 2010)

Lizban said:


> Shooters Hill is horrid esp. when you have come up through the park or over Blackheath Hill



And from Waterloo, they are my only two approaches! I'm currently using the park route as the traffic was getting silly at Blackheath Hill a couple of months ago.


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## HaloJ (21 May 2010)

Lizban said:


> Now I don't mind going up a hill or two but does anyone else find the silly little hills harder than nasty ones?
> 
> For example (for London readers) the Farringdon Road from Blackfriars up towards Kings X.
> 
> ...



I think I know the one you mean. As you pass under the bridge? It's just a speed sapping blip. Although now you're aware of it gear up, stand up and power on through. 

How far north do you head? Dartmouth Park Hill is a good one heading north from Tufnell Park up towards Highgate. Lovely little steep blip right at the end of the climb.


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## Lizban (21 May 2010)

HaloJ said:


> I think I know the one you mean. As you pass under the bridge? It's just a speed sapping blip. Although now you're aware of it gear up, stand up and power on through.
> 
> How far north do you head? Dartmouth Park Hill is a good one heading north from Tufnell Park up towards Highgate. Lovely little steep blip right at the end of the climb.




my office is near Mount Pleasant Post office don't get that far


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## Lizban (21 May 2010)

martint235 said:


> And from Waterloo, they are my only two approaches! I'm currently using the park route as the traffic was getting silly at Blackheath Hill a couple of months ago.




Park is so much nicer then you can cut through St Johns and miss out the Sun in Sands


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## tordis (21 May 2010)

I actually quite like Shooters Hill. Yes, it's a bit of a lengthy climb, but I'm in no rush on a Sunday morning when I take this route to Blackheath Farmers' Market  
But Gypsy Hill's not nice at all. Makes me short of breath in no time.


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## Cubist (21 May 2010)

FFS


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## jimboalee (21 May 2010)

The United Kingdom,


Long shallow hills – plenty

Short shallow hills – even more.

Short steep hills – can be found.

Long steep hills – none.


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## ColinJ (21 May 2010)

Cubist said:


> FFS


Ha - I was just thinking of you! 

I'm doing a 75 mile ride with Calum on Sunday and we will be coming back over Scapegoat Hill from Slaithwaite! Over 9,000 ft of Pennine hilliness in total, including long steady climbs, short 20% ones and nasty longish, steepish ones like Scapegoat Hill.

Southerners, eh!


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## martint235 (21 May 2010)

ColinJ said:


> Southerners, eh!




Hey not a southerner! I just live down here. Born at the foot of Pendle Hill and spent happy days mountain biking across the Pennines.

Shooters Hill is just the best I've got for now!


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## ColinJ (21 May 2010)

jimboalee said:


> Long steep hills – none.


What's the definition of long and steep? 

Obviously, we don't have anything which is 15% for 10 km because that would exceed the height of Ben Nevis, the highest point in the UK. 

We certainly have plenty of hills which are 10% for a couple of km or so which I rank as pretty long and pretty steep. I can think of a few locally which are harder than that.


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## jonny jeez (21 May 2010)

dont get me started on Bromley hill now!!!


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## ColinJ (21 May 2010)

martint235 said:


> Hey not a southerner! I just live down here. Born at the foot of Pendle Hill and spent happy days mountain biking across the Pennines.
> 
> Shooters Hill is just the best I've got for now!


Ooh, I love it round Pendle Hill and the Ribble Valley! We quite often do forum rides from Hebden Bridge out to the cafe at Waddington and sometimes go over the Nick o'Pendle - that's a 'proper' hill!












To get back on topic...

One of the 'hills' I hate most is the false flat coming back from Burnley towards Todmorden on the A646. It is only about 2% or so but I usually hit it when I'm feeling tired after a long ride and I just slow right down. It looks so easy that I feel that I should be doing 15-20 mph, but normally I'm only doing 8-10 mph.

Hills steeper than about 8% feel quite tough so there is no shame in finding them hard going.


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## automatic_jon (21 May 2010)

I went up by Mount Pleasant sorting office while going from Waterloo to Kings Cross (and back again) and thinking that I wasn't aware of hills in London, even though it felt like one while I had a week's worth of clothes in a pack on my back.

Portsmouth is a great city for cycling in (the council keeps telling us) it's flat and compact but getting out of town is problematical. We're essentially on a sandbank in the harbour, with sea on three sides and a ridge of prehistoric cliffs to the north. The road up isn't too bad as climbs go, now I've gotten used to it, but it's always the first thing I see when heading out as it seems to loom over the city and I'm never quite as warmed up as I would like.


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## Bollo (21 May 2010)

I've got plenty of the short-sharp types locally, including a 15% horror just outside the door. Most of the rides out of Winchester take you over some lumps and bumps. The terrain never gets too high (just over 200m is as 'up' as it goes) but you're never on the flat.

Despite not being built for the climbs, I quite enjoy the challenge of a good incline.


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## dave r (21 May 2010)

Wheelright lane between the Bull and Anchor and the crossroads by the railway crossing, riding back into Coventry.
Http://www.multimap.com/maps/#map=5...ation&loc=GB:52.45194:-1.50972:17|wheelwright lane|Wheelwright Lane, Coventry, West Midlands, England, CV6
Its got a very slight incline to it and just seems to just kill my speed even though its not worth calling a climb, strange, I go better later on Nunts lane which is a small climb.


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## martint235 (21 May 2010)

Now this is the proper side of Pendle Hill


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## GrasB (21 May 2010)

Lizban said:


> Now I don't mind going up a hill or two but does anyone else find the silly little hills harder than nasty ones?
> 
> For example (for London readers) the Farringdon Road from Blackfriars up towards Kings X.
> 
> ...


I don't find this however around here all there are is silly bumps in the road. I think it's because you don't expect it to be hard because it's small.


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## iLB (21 May 2010)

fossyant said:


> Hills...London......



+1


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## ColinJ (21 May 2010)

martint235 said:


> Now this is the proper side of Pendle Hill


Hmm, Barley or Newchurch-in-Pendle perhaps?


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## martint235 (21 May 2010)

ColinJ said:


> Hmm, Barley or Newchurch-in-Pendle perhaps?



It's not that good a picture actually now I look at it. It was taken at sunset from a pub called the Shooters' Arms on the other side of Nelson (my old local)


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## ColinJ (21 May 2010)

martint235 said:


> It's not that good a picture actually now I look at it. It was taken at sunset from a pub called the Shooters' Arms on the other side of Nelson (my old local)


Blimey, I just looked up where the Shooters' Arms is - over 5 miles from Pendle Hill, hardly nestling in its foothills!

I cycle round that way a lot. I often ride through Trawden and call in at Coldwell Activity Centre cafe on the way home via Widdop. Oh, that's an excuse for photos of another 'silly' hill - the steep one at Thursden!


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## Downward (21 May 2010)

So how much climbing do the london commuters do say per 10 miles ?


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## Downward (21 May 2010)

ColinJ said:


> Ooh, I love it round Pendle Hill and the Ribble Valley! We quite often do forum rides from Hebden Bridge out to the cafe at Waddington and sometimes go over the Nick o'Pendle - that's a 'proper' hill!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 What's the vital stats of this bad boy (drool)


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## martint235 (21 May 2010)

ColinJ said:


> Blimey, I just looked up where the Shooters' Arms is - over 5 miles from Pendle Hill, hardly nestling in its foothills!
> 
> I cycle round that way a lot. I often ride through Trawden and call in at Coldwell Activity Centre cafe on the way home via Widdop. Oh, that's an excuse for photos of another 'silly' hill - the steep one at Thursden!


Used to do this on an MTB. I'd hate to do it on the racer. And I think that bad boy is about a 1:10

M


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## ColinJ (21 May 2010)

Downward said:


> What's the vital stats of this bad boy (drool)


Here it is on an OS map.

It rises about 155 m from Sabden village in about 1,550 m so the average gradient is about 10% but some sections of it are about 17-20%. The Clitheroe side has one short ramp which I think is nearer to 25%.

The climb was used for the National Hill Climb championships in 1988, won by a youthful Chris Boardman. I think that might have been from the Clitheroe side though.


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## ColinJ (21 May 2010)

martint235 said:


> Used to do this on an MTB. I'd hate to do it on the racer. And I think that bad boy is about a 1:10
> 
> M


It might only average 10% or so but, as you know, there is a downhill section in the middle. The first ramp is about 20% and the final section after the dip is probably at least 15% for quite a long way. It's a right bugger if you get a head wind on it!


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## Cubist (22 May 2010)

ColinJ said:


> Ha - I was just thinking of you!
> 
> I'm doing a 75 mile ride with Calum on Sunday and we will be coming back over Scapegoat Hill from Slaithwaite! Over 9,000 ft of Pennine hilliness in total, including long steady climbs, short 20% ones and nasty longish, steepish ones like Scapegoat Hill.
> 
> Southerners, eh!


Slaithwaite to Scape via the Clough? On a road bike? Ooh, ow!
I've only ever done that on the MTB, lots of granny twiddling.  Round Ings is bad enough for me on the compact.

Call in for a cuppa. First turning right past the bus shelter on Scape High St, round the hairpin to the right and look for the green Disco


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## jimboalee (22 May 2010)

ColinJ said:


> What's the definition of long and steep?
> 
> Obviously, we don't have anything which is 15% for 10 km because that would exceed the height of Ben Nevis, the highest point in the UK.
> 
> We certainly have plenty of hills which are 10% for a couple of km or so which I rank as pretty long and pretty steep. I can think of a few locally which are harder than that.



Here’s the definition.

Steep – a chevron on the OS map, or >14%.

Long – The human body can hold about 500 – 600 kCals of energy within it’s circulatory system and liver for immediate usage.
Up a 14% hill, a rider will be outputting about 300 Watts to keep a steady 4.5 mph. It computes to just over 200 kCals per mile, so 600/200 = 3 miles.

Long and steep is a gradient over 14% which is 3 miles long.


You mission, if you chose to accept it, is to find such a hill,,, globally?

You might reply with “There isn’t one”. So logic says ‘a long steep hill doesn’t exist”, so get it out of your brains that there ARE long steep hills.


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## Cubist (22 May 2010)

^^ That's very reassuring Jim!! ^^


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## ColinJ (22 May 2010)

Cubist said:


> Slaithwaite to Scape via the Clough? On a road bike? Ooh, ow!
> I've only ever done that on the MTB, lots of granny twiddling.  Round Ings is bad enough for me on the compact.
> 
> Call in for a cuppa. First turning right past the bus shelter on Scape High St, round the hairpin to the right and look for the green Disco


Nice of you to offer but I suspect that I'll be scared to stop for fear of not getting going again! We'll still have a few hills to do on the way back to Hebden Bridge because I'm not riding through Sowerby Bridge on a sunny Sunday afternoon after my previous encounter with hundreds of local drunks!

If you fancy a laugh, we will probably be climbing the hill some time between about 16:00 and 16:30. I'll be the big guy grovelling at the back and Calum will be the young 'un romping up ahead of me!



jimboalee said:


> Here’s the definition.
> 
> Steep – a chevron on the OS map, or >14%.
> 
> ...


Hmmm... I think I'd find Mont Ventoux long and steep but it isn't according to that definition! Even the dreaded l'Angrilu doesn't average that.

I'm sure that I read about some roads in Patagonia that are ridiculously steep for many kms but I haven't managed to track one down yet and I won't be riding one any time soon!


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## Cubist (22 May 2010)

Shame, I'll be at work when you come past.... never mind, always next time!


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## Andy 71 (23 May 2010)

Lizban said:


> Shooters Hill is horrid esp. when you have come up through the park or over Blackheath Hill



You could just cheat like I used to, i.e. use the Westmount Rd, Rochester Way route. It's a far more sane route, and although the Rochester Way does have a little climb towards Falconwood, it's nowhere near comparable to Shooters.

Shooters is a 'fun' kind of hill, good for leisure but a bit severe for regular commuting. I used to race my bikes down there as a kid to crack the 'Magic 30mph' , but wouldn't want to do it on any regular kind of basis.

In fact, Shooters cyclists have it easy now compared to the 50s. Dad told me that a lot of cars in that era would conk out before the top, so they sliced a bit off the top. Hence, near the water tower, the side of the road has a 6ft high embankment where a chunk of hill used to be.


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## HaloJ (24 May 2010)

Downward said:


> So how much climbing do the london commuters do say per 10 miles ?



Just over 500 feet on my 8.5 mile homebound route.


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## jimboalee (24 May 2010)

HaloJ said:


> Just over 500 feet on my 8.5 mile homebound route.



1/ What's the difference between your start elevation and your finish elevation?
2/ How many roads on your route have a chevron?

Ans 1 is "< 500ft"
Ans 2 is "None".

Downward and I are from the West Mids. I'm hard pushed to find a 'steep' hill here too.


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## wanda2010 (24 May 2010)

martint235 said:


> I wouldn't call Shooters Hill a small hill but it's definitely silly! It's not like you're climbing over a ridge or anything, it's just a round hill in the middle of an otherwise fairly flat landscape that I have to go over twice a day!! It has no purpose whatsoever apart from to hurt your legs. Apparently the views from the top are very good but by the time I get to the top I'm concentrating on breathing!



The only time I've had to go up that one, I walked and my legs still complained. Still the ride down more than makes up for it


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## wanda2010 (24 May 2010)

fossyant said:


> Hills...London......




 I know, but I'm using that word. Don't care


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## HaloJ (24 May 2010)

jimboalee said:


> 1/ What's the difference between your start elevation and your finish elevation?
> 2/ How many roads on your route have a chevron?
> 
> Ans 1 is "< 500ft"
> ...



Aye, 444 is my peak height on my commute starting at 36 foot and my commute is a steady climb to the peak and over. I think my steepest climb near me is Muswell Hill which is only a 143 foot ascent over half a mile. Don't know of any chevroned hills near me.

EDIT : Apparently, according to the net Swain's Lane in Highgate N6 is the steepest near me. 200 foot over 3/4 mile which I've actually not attempted yet.


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## Downward (25 May 2010)

HaloJ said:


> Aye, 444 is my peak height on my commute starting at 36 foot and my commute is a steady climb to the peak and over. I think my steepest climb near me is Muswell Hill which is only a 143 foot ascent over half a mile. Don't know of any chevroned hills near me.
> 
> EDIT : Apparently, according to the net Swain's Lane in Highgate N6 is the steepest near me. 200 foot over 3/4 mile which I've actually not attempted yet.



Start at about 400 feet, Down to 350 feet, upto 750 feet and finish at 300 feet 520 feet climbing in 6.5 miles

Or Longer summer route is 350 feet to 930 feet and finish at 300 feet (13 miles 1000 feet of climbing)


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## jimboalee (25 May 2010)

Downward said:


> Start at about 400 feet, Down to 350 feet, upto 750 feet and finish at 300 feet 520 feet climbing in 6.5 miles
> 
> Or Longer summer route is 350 feet to 930 feet and finish at 300 feet (13 miles 1000 feet of climbing)



Start at 430 ft, down to 160 ft at Bridge End, Warwick and then back up to 420 ft; in 23 miles.

Pathetic, isn't it?

100km Audax Midland Mesh after work tonight.


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## HaloJ (25 May 2010)

Downward said:


> Start at about 400 feet, Down to 350 feet, upto 750 feet and finish at 300 feet 520 feet climbing in 6.5 miles
> 
> Or Longer summer route is 350 feet to 930 feet and finish at 300 feet (13 miles 1000 feet of climbing)



I had to ride 22 miles to get 800ft of climbing. Although I think I'll devise a route and do a tour of the North London climbs. Could be fun 



jimboalee said:


> 100km Audax Midland Mesh after work tonight.


 Oooh good luck with that.


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## Martok (25 May 2010)

HaloJ said:


> I had to ride 22 miles to get 800ft of climbing. Although I think I'll devise a route and do a tour of the North London climbs. Could be fun.


I think I'd rather stay at home and poke my eyes with a pin!


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## jimboalee (25 May 2010)

HaloJ said:


> I had to ride 22 miles to get 800ft of climbing. Although I think I'll devise a route and do a tour of the North London climbs. Could be fun



Get a 25Lb roll of roofing lead. Wrap it in a towel and a supermarket bag and zip-clip it in the frame triangle.


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## Kestevan (25 May 2010)

Straight out of work on an evening and I have a nice little hill to blow the desk cobwebs away...

Starts at 223ft and rises to 732 in 1.4 miles.

It's great on cold legs


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## HaloJ (25 May 2010)

jimboalee said:


> Get a 25Lb roll of roofing lead. Wrap it in a towel and a supermarket bag and zip-clip it in the frame triangle.



That's only a little more than my commuting bag weight!


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## jimboalee (26 May 2010)

HaloJ said:


> That's only a little more than my commuting bag weight!



Do both then.


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