# "Heavy mileage" and "penetrative spray" = replacement 18 month old rear wheel!



## berylthebrompton (20 Feb 2017)

Sorry to start a new thread, but I would appreciate peoples opinions on this.

TL;DR - My 12 month old M6L started making a grinding noise. After months of troubleshooting (isolation sound to the hub, full hub service, replacement driver), the dealer spoke to Brompton who agreed to take the bike back to inspect it.

After almost a fortnight, the bike returned with a whole new rear wheel. Reading the report, it says the technician dismantled the hub and found evidence of wear on the axel and pawls. They also noted the wheel rim wear, and put all this down to "heavy mileage". They also noted that the chain oil appeared to be a "penetrative spray", and this would have accelerated wear. They conclude that the signs of wear would not be classed as a defect and not normally covered under warranty, but would replace the whole wheel as a goodwill gesture.

Firstly: "heavy mileage". I bought my bike in Sept 2015, and cycle to and from work. In total I have clocked up approximately 2,500 miles. My commute home is hilly (110m gain). However, when you read about Heinz Stücke and the likes riding Bromptons across country, I don't see that mileage on a brand new bike as "heavy". Opinions?

Likewise, this "penetrative spray". I have only ever used Muc-Off chain lube. Currently it is Muc-Off C3 Wet Cermaic Lube. Brompton show this brand in their cleaning guide and even run competitions with them. Surely this isn't a bad chain lube? And could it really migrate into the hub in large enough quantities and cause issues of this magnitude so quickly?

On one hand, I am thankful the issue has been resolved. But it feels like an anticlimax, as it feels like they are blaming me for using my bike just for commuting. And it has damaged my confidence that this hub isn't going to last another 2,500.

I would love your experiences and honest thoughts.

Cheers,

James


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## Drago (20 Feb 2017)

Enjoy your free new wheel and move on...


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## Racing roadkill (20 Feb 2017)

Brompton wheels can be a bit fragile, due to the fact there physically isn't much material there. I once shot a Brompton wheel to pieces inside 200 miles, TBF, Bromptons aren't designed for endurance riding, and I wasn't entirely surprised. But it can be a surprise how easily / quickly a Brompton wheel can be worn out.


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## HLaB (20 Feb 2017)

I've MucOff C3 for the past year and a half but on bigger wheels can't say there is anything wrong with it!


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## 12boy (21 Feb 2017)

That seems bogus to me. I have had many more miles on mine without issue although I lube my chains with hot wax and oil the 3 speed hub with synthetic auto oil through the right hand axle where the chain goes into the hub. I still managed to trash some front wheel cones in 5000 miles or so but I probably should have repacked the hubs a little earlier. Have a recent post about getting them but apparently UK dealers will not send them to the US.


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## mickle (21 Feb 2017)

Ungrateful much?


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## berylthebrompton (21 Feb 2017)

mickle said:


> Ungrateful much?



Not ungrateful, but not grateful for having something fixed under warranty. That's why I bought a brand new bike with a warranty.


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## MarquisMatsugae (21 Feb 2017)

Thread title alert for @Fnaar


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## Kell (21 Feb 2017)

I don't think it's ungrateful at all. I think it's a genuine question from someone who expected more from their £1,000 bike.


First things first, IMHO Brompton's response is piss-poor. There have been many hints that their expansion is causing quality-control issues and rather than them admit it was a problem, they've effectively passed the buck and blamed the user for the problem. The 'free' wheel is just to try and hush you up.

I wouldn't expect a hub to last as little as 2,500 miles. I don't believe that using penetrative spray on your chain would cause the hub to wear out - or were they saying the spray caused the rim to wear? Either way, I'd expect more from my bike. In fact, when my rim wore out and cracked at around 2,000 miles I was also left feeling disappointed but told from the shop 'that's just normal'. And I've never even been near my bike with penetrative spray.

In my case, I also expected rather more constructive answers from this site than things like 'it's your own fault for not cleaning it', that I was somehow not telling the truth and my bike was older than I said it was or that I brake incorrectly. 

I do think the responses on this site seem to be a little harsh at times.

Here's my thread if it makes you feel any better:

https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/rear-rims-just-cracked.205315/


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## 12boy (21 Feb 2017)

This sort of thing is why I have always liked cartridge bearing hubs, headsets and bottom brackets. Instead of saving a pound or two off total bike weight by investing in TI parts I'd rather have maintenance free components, although once I'd gotten them I'd probably want some TI parts too!


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## mickle (21 Feb 2017)

Kell said:


> First things first, IMHO Brompton's response is piss-poor. ..............
> 
> ................ The 'free' wheel is just to try and hush you up.



Eh? Brompton's warranty were presented with a failed component. They replaced the whole wheel for a new one and made an effort - given the limited evidence that they had available to them - to understand why the component had failed. I fail to see what more they might have done.


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## Drago (21 Feb 2017)

I'd be quite happy if I had a failed wheel and it was replaced under warranty. I couldn't care less what they accused me of on the ticket, just so long as the goods appeared.


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## TheDoctor (21 Feb 2017)

I'm surprised a wheel went that quickly. My M6R has done lots of miles, and been touring a few times. Fair play to Brompton for replacing the wheel, and trying to suggest a possible cause.


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## mitchibob (21 Feb 2017)

berylthebrompton said:


> Firstly: "heavy mileage". I bought my bike in Sept 2015, and cycle to and from work. In total I have clocked up approximately 2,500 miles. My commute home is hilly (110m gain). However, when you read about Heinz Stücke and the likes riding Bromptons across country, I don't see that mileage on a brand new bike as "heavy". Opinions?



I got a new M2L last summer. Within 2,500km, the bottom bracket needed replacing. After a little online research it didn't seem that uncommon, although I was disappointed to get only that kind of distance out of it. I'm doing about 25km a day on my commute with a daily height gain of 100-140m. I didn't think that was particularly high milage, but whenever I'm asked in the shop about the distance I cover, they always seem to say that it's high for a Brompton.

Considering the condition of many London roads, the wheels have coped pretty well, although I could maybe do with truing the front a little. Hubs seem fine, although no hub gear to worry about.

One thing that surprised me after buying a Brompton, was what they think the longevity of some parts are in the manual, e.g. M-Type handlebars only lasting 5,000miles if you "ride hard", whatever that means, and suggesting you change before a dangerous failure.


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## berylthebrompton (21 Feb 2017)

mitchibob said:


> I got a new M2L last summer. Within 2,500km, the bottom bracket needed replacing. After a little online research it didn't seem that uncommon, although I was disappointed to get only that kind of distance out of it.



What happened to the bottom bracket?


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## Kell (21 Feb 2017)

What I'm getting at is that as a rider it's very unlikely the OP has managed to get penetrating fluid anywhere near the interior of the hub. 

What I think is wrong of them is that when a part fails and they don't know the cause for them point the finger at the user. 

If they genuinely thought the OP had caused the damage they wouldn't have replaced it. 

If everyone else is thinking that 2,500 miles is acceptable for a hub to fail then you've got waaaaay lower expectations than me. 

My last bike did over 10,000 miles on the same pair of wheels in commuting duty, and when the frame cracked, the only thing I kept were the wheels as they were still perfect. 

And not only that, they were only £125 for the pair instead of the rather more expensive £170 for just the rear. 

Yes I know the wheels are smaller, so they make more revolutions, but if you read my last comment on the thread I posted about my rim splitting, I'd just watched the Greg Wallace programme about the Brompton factory and the MD said they make the wheels particulary strong to cope with commuting. 

Not in my opinion.


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## Drago (21 Feb 2017)

Does it matter where the finger points, just so long as he gets his wheel? He's no worse off, got the result he wanted. I've long since come to terms with myself and stopped caring what anyone thinks of me.


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## mitchibob (21 Feb 2017)

berylthebrompton said:


> What happened to the bottom bracket?



It was knackered. A lot of sideways play in the cranks and a noticeable grinding when putting a lot of effort in.

Now noticing a clicky pedal, and am not doing a good job of stopping myself changing to some half'n'half SPD pedals. Funnily enough, it's not the folding pedal that's clicky, as I really thought that'd be the first to go.


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## Kell (21 Feb 2017)

mickle said:


> Eh? Brompton's warranty were presented with a failed component. They replaced the whole wheel for a new one and made an effort - given the limited evidence that they had available to them - to understand why the component had failed. I fail to see what more they might have done.



Actually what they've done is refused a warranty claim and given a new wheel as a 'goodwill gesture.'

I can see why some people might think this is the same thing, or that it doesn't matter but it makes a massive difference in terms of QA. It gets marked down as a customer error rather than a parts failure.

It's like sending a steak back because it's past its sell by date and rancid and the chef grudgingly cooking you another one. Then saying it wasn't his fault for sending the steak out, but your fault for putting too much salt on it.

The end result is that you still get a steak, but now all of a sudden it's your fault not his.

Don't get me wrong. I still think the Brompton is the best compromise for commuting, I just find the fact that it's evolved rather than being reinvented over the years and they still haven't managed to iron out the problem areas a little puzzling.


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## berylthebrompton (21 Feb 2017)

mitchibob said:


> It was knackered. A lot of sideways play in the cranks and a noticeable grinding when putting a lot of effort in.
> 
> Now noticing a clicky pedal, and am not doing a good job of stopping myself changing to some half'n'half SPD pedals. Funnily enough, it's not the folding pedal that's clicky, as I really thought that'd be the first to go.



My non-folding pedal started to click under load, the dealer said it was worn(?), Within a day it had come back, starting to wonder if its the BB.


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## mitchibob (21 Feb 2017)

Kell said:


> If everyone else is thinking that 2,500 miles is acceptable for a hub to fail then you've got waaaaay lower expectations than me.



I think you're right. I'd expect considerable more milage than that out of one of those hubs. When I briefly worked in a bike shop, the first wheel I had to rebuild had a very similar hub, that was pretty ancient, but in perfect working order. The guy that owned the shop explained that he'd done loads of rebuilds for sturmey archers, because the hubs outlast the rims by decades, so it was cheaper to get them rebuilt.



Kell said:


> Yes I know the wheels are smaller, so they make more revolutions, but if you read my last comment on the thread I posted about my rim splitting, I'd just watched the Greg Wallace programme about the Brompton factory and the MD said they make the wheels particulary strong to cope with commuting.
> Not in my opinion.



Strong enough for 'Rugger Buggers' or something I believe. I have to say, I'm very impressed with the quality of the wheels, considering what mine have been through so far. As much as I've tried to adjust my route to get rid of some of the rougher roads and speed-humps, there is sometimes no avoiding certain drains or pot-holes, and with small wheels, they can be really nasty, and I'm surprised at how well they've held up.

I'm disappointed that bottom bracket went so quickly on mine. The standard front tyre also seemed a little thin when I switched Marathons in December (although I do have a reasonably heavy T-Bag on it most days). The rest of the bike seems to be pretty well put together to me. Just needs a little tightening and adjusting of a couple of bits and pieces, and keeping properly cleaned and lubricated.

I'm still not sure what 'Riding Hard' is on a Brompton though. It was all hard for the first few months after not riding for 25 years.


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## mitchibob (21 Feb 2017)

berylthebrompton said:


> My non-folding pedal started to click under load, the dealer said it was worn(?), Within a day it had come back, starting to wonder if its the BB.



Check if there's any play in the cranks, from side to side. In my case, it only happened in certain crank positions to start with, so I wondered if I was imagining it, as I'd get off, give them a pull, and they'd be fine, then get back on, and notice it again. Some days it seemed better than others, but eventually, was annoying me enough to just get it replaced, especially the slight grinding feeling under load.


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## berylthebrompton (21 Feb 2017)

mitchibob said:


> Check if there's any play in the cranks, from side to side. In my case, it only happened in certain crank positions to start with, so I wondered if I was imagining it, as I'd get off, give them a pull, and they'd be fine, then get back on, and notice it again. Some days it seemed better than others, but eventually, was annoying me enough to just get it replaced, especially the slight grinding feeling under load.


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## mickle (22 Feb 2017)

Kell said:


> Actually what they've done is refused a warranty claim and given a new wheel as a 'goodwill gesture.'
> 
> I can see why some people might think this is the same thing, or that it doesn't matter but it makes a massive difference in terms of QA. It gets marked down as a customer error rather than a parts failure.
> 
> ...



At the risk of repeating myself: _Brompton's warranty department were presented with a failed component. They replaced the whole wheel for a new one and made an effort - given the limited evidence that they had available to them - to understand why the component had failed. I fail to see what more they might have done_.

There are many brands whose reputation, when it comes to warranty, is terrible. I'll not name them here. But Brompton isn't one of them, Brompton is in the premier league when it comes to warranty. 

As a retail department manager I am often called upon to have the final word on warranty claims where a customer has refused to accept the decision on a warranty claim of one of my junior colleagues. It's one of my areas of special expertise. I've been doing this for a long time and I've watched a lot of CSI. After 30 years of working in bike shops I reckon fully 50% of all warranty claims are bogus, where customers have farked something up through ineptitude, accident or neglect and tried to pull the wool over our eyes. What they fail to take into account is that we're better at this than them and we very often see right through their lies. No-one is in the business of actively trying to pish customers off, and most of us in specialty retail know that the delivery of good 'customer service' is where it's possible to create and build solid relationships. because we want to retain our customer, where there is any doubt we tend to err on the customer's side. If we cannot identify the cause of a problem we'll make a best guess as to the cause. Which is what Brompton have done. There are only three possible narratives to explain the part's failure:

1. There was a one-off problem with an individual component, or
2. There's an inherent problem with the design or manufacture of that whole component line or
3. The customer's use or abuse of the component.

Mass production and modern quality assurance makes #1 _unlikely_. Presumably it's not #2 - that these hubs are failing in great numbers because the industry would have heard about it. Unless... this was among the first and this is just the tip of an emerging warranty iceberg. So, from Brompton's viewpoint, whether right or wrong, it looks like customer error.

We had a customer recently who broke his expensive recumbent by doing something stupid to it. We knew he'd done something stupid because the evidence was there for all to see. The manufacturer, quote rightly refused to warranty the frame. Nevertheless, and rather than argue with a man who is dying from terminal cancer we went ahead, at our cost, with a repair which involved removing a knackered trailer bracket and welding a plate over the hole. In the end, thanks to the skill of our subcontracted fabricator, the repair was invisible. It far exceeded our expectaions and we were delighted to be able to give him his trike back fixed to an extremely high standard. Was he grateful? Was he fark. He even started a thread on a popular Facebook group slagging off the manufacturer and us and telling anyone who would listen that the bikes were shoot and the manufacturer were charlitans.


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## berylthebrompton (22 Feb 2017)

Thanks for everyone's opinions. It's very interesting to see the polar-opposite views from everyone

I also agree with people concerns of the mileage of some Brompton parts, and will have to see what the future brings. But I agree with the people who are saying "chalk it up, the issues solved, onwards and upwards".



mickle said:


> At the risk of repeating myself: _Brompton's warranty department were presented with a failed component. They replaced the whole wheel for a new one and made an effort - given the limited evidence that they had available to them - to understand why the component had failed. I fail to see what more they might have done_.
> 
> There are many brands whose reputation, when it comes to warranty, is terrible. I'll not name them here. But Brompton isn't one of them, Brompton is in the premier league when it comes to warranty.
> 
> ...



I am a technician for a high-end computer and mobile phone manufacturer, and my job for the last 8 years has been to deal directly with customers warranty claims. They have a high expectation of customer service and quality, as do I. Which Is why I paid what I paid for a Brompton. For that reason, and applying my experience, I completely disagree with your disregard of #1 being a possibility. Arguably, I would be fine with this conclusion: there was a one off issue with this part, it was replaced under your warranty, and you shouldn't have the issue again with this one. I replace parts every day because they fail. Not because they are poorly designed or have inherent problems, but because the more something is made, the higher the odds of one or two of them being defective. The best testers are the general public. They will find problems that designers and engineers have missed. And customers are okay with this, as long as its sorted efficiently. But as the manufacturer, we designed the product. We are the best people to determine if something is consumed, abused or failed. The same position Brompton are in. Therefore Brompton should be able to neatly fall into a camp: a warranty failure, a consumed part, or abuse. Have a foot in two camps does not instill faith if there are future problems, and unfortunately takes away any of the kudos the would rightly deserve for fixing it efficiently, at no cost. With reference to customer service, we can both agree that rightly or wrongly blaming a customer has never increase customer loyalty. Sometimes this is necessary, but if your aren't 100% sure then why would you cast blame to a customer? Nothing is gained.

In conclusion, I suppose the difference between your story and this one is you went above and beyond and fixed it, and were magnanimous in doing your good deed. Shame your customer didn't have to awareness to see this and be thankful accordingly.


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## burntoutbanger (22 Feb 2017)

I used to have a position on the factory floor in manufacturing, we made filters.
They were supposed to conform to three measures: size, weight and a pressure test. Frequently the machines making the filters didn't run very well and the filters produced weren't coming from the machine 'in spec'.
These filters were put in the same boxes and sold to the same customers as the filters that had come off the machine 'in spec'. This was known about as far up through management as I could tell.

The thought that mass production and modern QA mean that things manufactured in factories are rarely to fail is just laughable!


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## mickle (23 Feb 2017)

burntoutbanger said:


> I used to have a position on the factory floor in manufacturing, we made filters.
> They were supposed to conform to three measures: size, weight and a pressure test. Frequently the machines making the filters didn't run very well and the filters produced weren't coming from the machine 'in spec'.
> These filters were put in the same boxes and sold to the same customers as the filters that had come off the machine 'in spec'. This was known about as far up through management as I could tell.
> 
> The thought that mass production and modern QA mean that things manufactured in factories are rarely to fail is just laughable!



I work in the bicycle industry. Excluding electronic devices and ePAS our warranty levels across the board on frames, components and accessories are infinitesimally small. Less than one half of one percent I'd guess. I worked for a short time as a fitter for a bathroom retailer and was dumbfounded by the warranty rates. My then boss reckoned that it ran at close to 15%. That was across the board: taps and fittings, pans, cisterns, baths and basins, tiles, showers, trays and screens. 15% of everything they sold came back in under warranty. If you wanted to know why bathroom products are so expensive...


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## 12boy (23 Feb 2017)

Be interesting to see how you do with your new wheel. Hopefully it will last for many years to come.


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## Blue Hills (23 Feb 2017)

mickle said:


> Ungrateful much?


Beryl's was an honest and reasonable post.
And she was asking fair questions of generally helpful folk on here.
No need to be snarky.



Declaration of interest - i have an old brommie and hence am interested in the thread. Have had no similar issues with mine but then i see cyclechat as a nice way of sharing experience and knowledge.

Have a nice mickleday.


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## Blue Hills (23 Feb 2017)

12boy said:


> This sort of thing is why I have always liked cartridge bearing hubs, headsets and bottom brackets. Instead of saving a pound or two off total bike weight by investing in TI parts I'd rather have maintenance free components, although once I'd gotten them I'd probably want some TI parts too!


You might change your view on such a generalisation if you had owned a dahon speed pro. I won't bore you with the story of my front wheel hub, headset - both cartridge bearings.


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## Blue Hills (23 Feb 2017)

mickle said:


> There are only three possible narratives to explain the part's failure:
> 
> 1. There was a one-off problem with an individual component, or
> 2. There's an inherent problem with the design or manufacture of that whole component line or
> ...



A drum roll as you so blithely diss possibilities 1 and 2.

You say you work in retail?

I'd be interested to know which outfit so that I can avoid it.


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## Hacienda71 (23 Feb 2017)

Blue Hills said:


> Beryl's was an honest and reasonable post.
> And she was asking fair questions of generally helpful folk on here.
> No need to be snarky.
> 
> ...



I suspect that the poster is a er gent unless James is now a ladies name.


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## Drago (23 Feb 2017)

I thought it was Jamesella?


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## Blue Hills (23 Feb 2017)

Hacienda71 said:


> I suspect that the poster is a er gent unless James is now a ladies name.


well that will teach me to be transfixed by avatar names. But not a big matter.


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## KnackeredBike (23 Feb 2017)

berylthebrompton said:


> I am a technician for a high-end computer and mobile phone manufacturer


So you will know that as a technician you get something "blind", for all they knew you could have put your wheel in the microwave then given ten fat friends a lift on the back.

For some bloody stupid reason Brompton not only ask their technicians to guess the cause of a fault but also to put that in writing to a customer. No-one wants that, they just want their bike back fixed and be told that it was a one-off fault and it won't happen again.

Same with me in healthcare, no-one wants to be told they're ill because they smoke like a chimney and have eight pints each night, they just want a cure and to be home in time for Countdown.


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## KnackeredBike (23 Feb 2017)

User13710 said:


> I had chondromalacia patellae once (hurty knee), and the consultant said it was due to 'overuse'.
> 
> Sorry, as you were.


It's best just to fly around for at least one day a week to give them a rest.


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## mickle (23 Feb 2017)

Blue Hills said:


> A drum roll as you so blithely diss possibilities 1 and 2.
> 
> You say you work in retail?
> 
> I'd be interested to know which outfit so that I can avoid it.



http://www.getcycling.org.uk/bike-shop-york/

Your loss.


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