# Naughty Mates bikes



## Cycleops (11 Sep 2022)

Have been proecuted for supplying bikes to the UK with a 750 w motor making their bikes capable of reaching 20mph:
https://www.cyclingweekly.com/produ...-overpowered-folding-e-bikes-capable-of-32kph


----------



## ianrauk (11 Sep 2022)

Like people who bought them will take them back to be de-restricted.


----------



## DCLane (11 Sep 2022)

I can see them appealing on the grounds that electric scooter retailers can sell those, which are illegal to use except on private land, and they are in the same situation.


----------



## BoldonLad (11 Sep 2022)

Not specifically 'Mate' bikes, but, illegal e-Bikes are now a regular sight on local public roads, and, footpaths, in this area. There does not appear to be action being taken to curb their use on public roads and footpaths. They appear to have become legal by default.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (11 Sep 2022)

DCLane said:


> I can see them appealing on the grounds that electric scooter retailers can sell those, which are illegal to use except on private land, and they are in the same situation.



It was their advertising that blew that argument out the water


----------



## CXRAndy (11 Sep 2022)

BoldonLad said:


> They appear to have become legal by default.



It's only a matter of time before they will be legalized


----------



## classic33 (11 Sep 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> It's only a matter of time before they will be legalized


Along with all the requirements that go with owning-operating one. Which might just cut the number in use.

There's an electric motorbike near me, which has been fully registered, insured and MOT'd. The owner has passed his test and has met the insurance requirements for the type of vehicle he decided to use.


----------



## ericmark (15 Sep 2022)

If I buy a moped or motor bike I can't ride it on dedicated cycle tracks, riding a over powered motor bike on the public road is not really a problem except for the lack of insurance, it may be technically against the law, riding with no insurance or MOT to ride on the public road, but it is riding on shared pedestrian/cycle tracks where the problem lies.

It states not over 250 watt on a continuous basis, so a motor that peaks at 350 watt may be within the law, but 750 watt is clearly going OTT, but unless the gearing allows you to pedal that fast, even a 1000 watt will not allow most people to reach 20 MPH as they simply can't turn the pedals that fast, but add a throttle and then yes the user can ride at silly speeds. 

But with a mid motor starting off at junctions is not a problem, motor cuts in fast, but with my e-bike with motor in real wheel without a throttle junctions are dangerous as the assistance takes so long to kick in, so one needs a throttle or similar, but at 4 MPH the non pedal assistance should stop, however there is no option for the user to program this in. Either the throttle works at all speeds or is disabled, there seems to be no option for the user to configure his bike to comply with the new laws.

It was permitted to have an active throttle, it depends on the build date, but my e-bike does not show build date. 

Had my bike be installed with a 750 or 1000 watt it is reasonably clear that a 250 watt hub is very much smaller than 750 watt so no bike shop is likely to make an error and sell a 750 watt in error, but the 350 and 250 watt hubs are harder to tell with a quick look, need to see the wattage marked on the hub. 

My shown here I got second hand when the DVLA failed to renew my licence in the 2 months I had allowed, it took them 8 months to renew my licence, it has the lowest wattage motor option, and my wife's Bosch mid motor bike out preforms mine, so even if it says 350 watt on the hub, it is not as powerful as the 250 watt Bosch mid motor, it is poor at hill climbing, once the speed drops below 4 MPH may as well give up and dismount. 

But technically likely not permitted even if the continuous power does not exceed 250 watt. However there is nothing in that advert that alerts anyone buying it that it likely does not comply with British law, I thought I was getting a fully compliant e-bike it was much latter I realised it said 350 watt on the motor.


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (15 Sep 2022)

Quote
But with a mid motor starting off at junctions is not a problem, motor cuts in fast, but with my e-bike with motor in real wheel without a throttle junctions are dangerous as the assistance takes so long to kick in
Unquote

I have to disagree with this
I have had several ebikes - currently have 2 - one mid drive and one rather cheap rear hub drive
I agree that the hub drive - every hub drive I have had - does tend to delay the cut in from a standing start

But saying this is dangerous is not right - it is the same as for a 'normal' bicycle
You just pedal off - change gear and/or stand on the pedals - then the assist kicks in after a few yards


----------



## ericmark (16 Sep 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> But saying this is dangerous is not right - it is the same as for a 'normal' bicycle


Not really, as with a non assisted bike you will need to have selected a ratio which will allow you to move on that gradient before you stop, using the power available, but with the electric although the same is true, on stopping the power available is less than half the power which was available before stopping, so one may not be able to restart without lifting the rear wheel and changing the ratio.

And the lack of power to restart in that ratio only becomes apparent when one tries to restart, I find in the main with an e-bike the gears are simply not used, we select the highest ratio and the motor varies the power it delivers, some electrics use a belt drive with only one ratio as really no need for gears with an e-bike unless the hill is that steep with a non assisted bike one would get off and walk.

I test rode an e-bike without the walk assist or throttle, and my wife fell off it trying to restart, for the walk assist or throttle to stop working at 4 MPH is not a problem, once moving then the hub motor is OK, not as good as mid motor, but OK, but unless the manufacturers give the walk assist option the user has two options either throttle always active or never active, as the user one can't program in a walk assist, and this is a problem, I have the throttle active to start off at junctions, and it is down to me not to use it once rolling, because it is available as a walk assist, it is also available at 10 MPH so I can use the e-bike like a moped.

So if I compare my old Honda P50 and my new e-bike, only real difference is range, I would do 60 miles on my P50, it would only do around 20 - 25 MPH and the gearing for pedalling was so low that if the engine was disengaged cycle speed was about same and walking speed, over 5 MPH you could not assist the motor built into the rear wheel.


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (16 Sep 2022)

OK - yes - that is true
but it just means that you have to think a bit

which you have to do on a 'normal' bike as well. I have often arrived at a junction after a slight downhill and tried to restart in a high gear then had to switch
I think that the difference is in attitude. If you think of it as a bike with a bit of assist then you are more likely to treat it as a normal bike
If you think of it as a bike with a motor that you pedal a bit then you get into the way of thinking where you always put it in a high gear and let the motor deal with the problems
but cycling does involve thinking ahead - and being able to stand on the pedals when necessary if you stop in the wrong gear - I am basically old fat and unfit - but I can still restart in 5th or 6th gear on the flat (out of 7)


----------



## fossyant (16 Sep 2022)

Mate have a store in Manchester I believe and it's about time these lot got pulled up, but the fine is tiny.

Nearly gave myself a coronary trying to keep up with a Deliveroo rider on an illegal bike last week - I was on my very heavy commuter MTB. In my defense it was a slight uphill


----------



## ericmark (24 Sep 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> I think that the difference is in attitude.



No design of the e-bike, wife's centre mounted Bosch there is no question, it assists the rider, and one still on low assist need to change gears, and it gives assistance from the start.

My bike with motor in rear wheel, no where near as good as each of the assistance levels are not more than the speed at which the assistance stops, so at 2 stops around 10 MPH at 3 stops around 15 MPH, 1 is a bit useless stops at around 4 MPH but up to 4 MPH the torque is very low, but because the assistance is speed related it means one does not realise how steep the road is, set at 2 and one just keeps delivering a consent effort to maintain 10 MPH up hill and on the flat, until it is using all the power the motor can give, only then does it slow down.

On stopping it takes around 10 years for the motor to fully kick in, so one stops, then simply can't restart, even lifting rear wheel and getting into first gear, starting off is a problem, as often the hill is too steep for me to pedal up without assistance, so without the throttle it is a case of get off and walk, walking one is wider, and also slower which means more vulnerable. 

I do have folding pedals so not too bad walking with the bike, but it is heavy, so really need the walk assist, but that tends to be on or off, and up hill I can't walk at 4 MPH, I would want more like 2 MPH to walk up hill. And also without the throttle there is no walk assist. 

Clearly whole idea is exercise, so I try to only use motor when needed, however with at least my hub motor it does need some form of throttle to both start up and walk with bike. However with wife's she rarely uses walk assist, since motor works through gears it can go up steeper hills, and it give power as soon as you push on the peddle. However not found a folding bike with mid motor.


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (24 Sep 2022)

ericmark said:


> No design of the e-bike, wife's centre mounted Bosch there is no question, it assists the rider, and one still on low assist need to change gears, and it gives assistance from the start.
> 
> My bike with motor in rear wheel, no where near as good as each of the assistance levels are not more than the speed at which the assistance stops, so at 2 stops around 10 MPH at 3 stops around 15 MPH, 1 is a bit useless stops at around 4 MPH but up to 4 MPH the torque is very low, but because the assistance is speed related it means one does not realise how steep the road is, set at 2 and one just keeps delivering a consent effort to maintain 10 MPH up hill and on the flat, until it is using all the power the motor can give, only then does it slow down.
> 
> ...



That sounds really unusual - at least in my experience
I have had 3 rear hub powered ebikes (long story about one of them!) and they have all been a bit slow kicking in from a standing start - but by slow I mean a second or less
From start they all assist (after a second or so) straight away although at slightly different power levels
But all power up to the cut off speed in all assists levels - although the amount of assist drops off as it gets towards it
The lowest assist starts dropping off some time before 15.5 mph and is almost unnoticeable by about 14 mph - high assist assists at full power almost up to 15.5

However, it is all up to the algorithm that heh manufacturer has used to set it up - I suppose


----------



## bonzobanana (1 Oct 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> That sounds really unusual - at least in my experience
> I have had 3 rear hub powered ebikes (long story about one of them!) and they have all been a bit slow kicking in from a standing start - but by slow I mean a second or less
> From start they all assist (after a second or so) straight away although at slightly different power levels
> But all power up to the cut off speed in all assists levels - although the amount of assist drops off as it gets towards it
> ...



This is more related to torque sensor vs cadence sensor. Most mid-drives are torque sensor based but hub motor ebikes are a mixed, Halfords have sold a huge amount of Suntour HESC ebikes with hub motors and they are torque sensor based with power kicking in as you start riding just like most mid-drives. However most hub motor ebikes have cadence sensors where they need to see the crank rotating before they apply power. Most ebikes in the world are throttle based anyway, across Asia and most countries they simply apply power when they need it. Unfortunately not such an easy option in Europe because of poor legislation. Throttles make junctions much easier and safer especially for the weak, disabled, elderly etc. So as you cycle away from a junction you can provide some boost power which allows you concentrate more on the road at this critical point rather than struggle physically.


----------

