# Wheels - where do I begin?



## Usehernamegood (20 May 2015)

The process of changing and upgrading wheels may be simple to some but to me - not so simple.

I bought a Specialized Allez which I love, it's a great all rounder bike but pretty basic. I've been looking at wheels as I promised myself an upgrade but where do I begin?

Sizing/ material etc.

Can any of you lovely fellow cyclists help me out with a bit of advice or suggestions/ recommendations?

Thanks very much!


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## cd365 (20 May 2015)

Campagnolo Zonda


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## vickster (20 May 2015)

How much do you want to spend. I am quite happy with Fulcrum 5s which cost me under £175

Get good tyres too (a whole new can of worms)

Sizing, you need 700c for a roadbike, best get the same size as on your current bike as you know there is enough clearance for them


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## Justinslow (20 May 2015)

Usehernamegood said:


> The process of changing and upgrading wheels may be simple to some but to me - not so simple.
> 
> I bought a Specialized Allez which I love, it's a great all rounder bike but pretty basic. I've been looking at wheels as I promised myself an upgrade but where do I begin?
> 
> ...


Budget is a good place to start, weight would be my next factor, then rim depth (how aero they are or whether you require a deep or shallow rim and the quality of the hubs. Obviously if you are a heavy rider you need to ascertain whether the wheelset can handle your weight - spoke count comes in to this. Finally - looks, do you like them, once you've searched through lots of wheels you should have a short list of possible options including having some handbuilt for you (if you have the funds).


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## Justinslow (20 May 2015)

cd365 said:


> Campagnolo Zonda


Everybody it seems buys these, that would put me off, dare to be different, not saying there's anything wrong with them though.


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## Usehernamegood (20 May 2015)

Thanks for your responses. I'm not a heavy rider, weighing in at 70kg. I want something a lot lighter (and nicer looking) than the standard Axis Classic the bike comes with. Budget below £200, I don't mind paying that little bit extra as I'm cycling around 80 miles a week and think a decent set of wheels will be worth it.


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## Rob3rt (20 May 2015)

Buy whatever you like the look of...


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## vickster (20 May 2015)

http://www.probikekit.co.uk/bicycle...ck/white-clincher-wheelset-2014/10841518.html
or
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/...gclid=CP6X_Lfh0MUCFeHJtAodSw8Akw&gclsrc=aw.ds

Don't forget to budget another £50 odd for good new tyres  (and a few quid for tubes)

Does your Allez have a carbon fork? If not budget for one of those at some point too  I don't know if Specialized sell the funny Zertz ones separately


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## Usehernamegood (20 May 2015)

vickster said:


> http://www.probikekit.co.uk/bicycle...ck/white-clincher-wheelset-2014/10841518.html
> or
> http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/...gclid=CP6X_Lfh0MUCFeHJtAodSw8Akw&gclsrc=aw.ds
> 
> ...


Best advice I've had!


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## Yellow Saddle (20 May 2015)

Here we go again.

Lots of advice will follow without a single question about your objectives.

Basically, wheel upgrades are wasteful extravagances which are always justified with pseudo-scientific reasons.

But if you don't believe me, read some of the most recent discussions on the topic.

http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/wheels-upgrade.172274/
http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/what-upgrade.179728/
https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/wheel-upgrade.177144/post-3641658


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## vickster (20 May 2015)

Get wheels if you want nice new shiny things...cheaper than a new bike and you'll think you are rolling better


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## Usehernamegood (20 May 2015)

Wheels are there to be bought.


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## Usehernamegood (20 May 2015)

Yellow Saddle said:


> Here we go again.
> 
> Lots of advice will follow without a single question about your objectives.
> 
> ...


I don't believe you.


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## potsy (20 May 2015)

I've 'upgraded' wheels twice on my bikes

First one was because the stock wheels were making some alarming noises so Specialized agreed to replace them with some Shimano RS10's.

Second time as I wanted something a bit better than the stock ones on my Caad so went for Shimano Ultegras.

Can I tell the difference? Not really but they do look better


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## SpokeyDokey (20 May 2015)

potsy said:


> I've 'upgraded' wheels twice on my bikes
> 
> First one was because the stock wheels were making some alarming noises so Specialized agreed to replace them with some Shimano RS10's.
> 
> ...



Are you 100% sure that you are not suddenly nipping up 20% gradients like a whippet on speed?


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## Usehernamegood (20 May 2015)

The logic is, the less weight you're carrying, the quicker you'll be.


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## Justinslow (20 May 2015)

Yellow Saddle said:


> Here we go again.
> 
> Lots of advice will follow without a single question about your objectives.
> 
> ...


Who cares, the OP asked about wheels as he wants to buy some!

FOR GODS SAKE LET US TALK ABOUT AND THEN BUY SOME WHEELS IF WE WANT TO!


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## potsy (20 May 2015)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Are you 100% sure that you are not suddenly nipping up 20% gradients like a whippet on speed?


Fairly sure


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## Justinslow (20 May 2015)

Usehernamegood said:


> Thanks for your responses. I'm not a heavy rider, weighing in at 70kg. I want something a lot lighter (and nicer looking) than the standard Axis Classic the bike comes with. Budget below £200, I don't mind paying that little bit extra as I'm cycling around 80 miles a week and think a decent set of wheels will be worth it.


These could be just what you're after (although other wheels are available) I'm biased as I've just bought some!
http://www.superstarcomponents.com/en/elite-30-wheelset-2024.htm
I've got a review thread running here
https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/superstar-elite-30-ultra-wheelset.178881/


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## Usehernamegood (20 May 2015)

Justinslow said:


> These could be just what you're after (although other wheels are available) I'm biased as I've just bought some!
> http://www.superstarcomponents.com/en/elite-30-wheelset-2024.htm
> I've got a review thread running here
> https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/superstar-elite-30-ultra-wheelset.178881/


Cool, will check 'em out now!


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## MikeW-71 (20 May 2015)

Going from bog-standard lowest-end wheels (such as usually found on sub £1k bikes) to something better will be a noticeable difference. Even something on the lines of Fulcrum 7 or Fulcrum 5 would be enough.

I then went from my Giant P-SL1 wheels (equivalent roughly to Fulcrum 7) to some Campag Zondas. The bike is now 250 grams lighter, but the actual difference on the road is much smaller than before. It seems that's the start of diminishing returns, so I won't be going above that level.


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## Yellow Saddle (20 May 2015)

MikeW-71 said:


> Going from bog-standard lowest-end wheels (such as usually found on sub £1k bikes) to something better will be a noticeable difference. Even something on the lines of Fulcrum 7 or Fulcrum 5 would be enough.
> 
> I then went from my Giant P-SL1 wheels (equivalent roughly to Fulcrum 7) to some Campag Zondas. The bike is now 250 grams lighter, but the actual difference on the road is much smaller than before. It seems that's the start of diminishing returns, so I won't be going above that level.


Really? What will you notice?


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## MikeW-71 (20 May 2015)

Easier to accelerate them, particularly because they are stiffer than the boggo wheels. They will go up shallow gradients easier/faster. The outright weight saving won't help until the gradient is very steep.


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## Rob3rt (20 May 2015)

Yellow Saddle said:


> Really? What will you notice?



A reduction in your wheels being shite..


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## fossyant (20 May 2015)

Lots of factors to consider.

Budget
Intended use - commuting/weekend/leisure/lomng rides/hills/your weight

Commuting is a different requirement - you want something that's as robust as possible but not stupidly expensive as they will wear out - I go through the rims in 18 months.


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## Arjimlad (21 May 2015)

When I changed from the original wheels on my Defy 2 to a pair of wheels with Mavic CXP33 rims and Shimano 105 hubs, looking at Strava informed me that my time on my usual 10 mile commute, and in particular my times up hills, improved slightly. This without me putting in any more effort than usual on the daily ride to work. These wheels were less harsh/firm than the new Shimano RS11 wheels I have since put on as replacements.


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## Sittingduck (21 May 2015)

Lol, I love these wheel threads 

My thoughts are to avoid Shimano, Mavic can cause issues with freehubs and Campag seem to be popular but look plain wrong on a Shimano specced bike. I favour Fulcrums, of late. Racing Quattros but if you're a lightweight and want lighter wheels with a lower profile I would look at Racing 5's or 3's.


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## Rob3rt (21 May 2015)

Sittingduck said:


> Lol, I love these wheel threads
> 
> My thoughts are to avoid Shimano, Mavic can cause issues with freehubs and Campag seem to be popular but look plain wrong on a Shimano specced bike. I favour Fulcrums, of late. Racing Quattros but if you're a lightweight and want lighter wheels with a lower profile I would look at Racing 5's or 3's.



By "love" do you mean "despair at"?


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## Yellow Saddle (21 May 2015)

Arjimlad said:


> When I changed from the original wheels on my Defy 2 to a pair of wheels with Mavic CXP33 rims and Shimano 105 hubs, looking at Strava informed me that my time on my usual 10 mile commute, and in particular my times up hills, improved slightly. This without me putting in any more effort than usual on the daily ride to work. These wheels were less harsh/firm than the new Shimano RS11 wheels I have since put on as replacements.



You are deluding yourself. Do you really want to claim that by replacing one set of wheels with an average number of spokes and a profile depth of 20mm, with another set of wheels with an average number of spokes and a profile depth of 20mm, you improved your time up hills? A Strava reading is not a scientific experiment. .

But you go on and claim that you can feel the difference in "harshness" between an average set of wheels and another average set of wheels. Do you realize that the compliance of a wheel (how much it gives way under load) is less than the thickness of a sheet of printer paper? For you to discern between 80gsm and 90gsm printer paper as you ride over it is pretty remarkable. To put it differently, If I make you ride over a line of coins, you'll thus be able to shout out whether they are facing up heads or tails as you ride.


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## Yellow Saddle (21 May 2015)

@Usehernamegood 

Let's try and help you sensibly.

What problem are you trying to solve?


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## Citius (21 May 2015)

Usehernamegood said:


> The logic is, the less weight you're carrying, the quicker you'll be.



May be true uphill - not necessarily true on the flat.


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## Rob3rt (21 May 2015)

Yellow Saddle said:


> You are deluding yourself.* Do you really want to claim that by replacing one set of wheels with an average number of spokes and a profile depth of 20mm, with another set of wheels with an average number of spokes and a profile depth of 20mm, you improved your time up hills?* A Strava reading is not a scientific experiment. .
> 
> But you go on and claim that you can feel the difference in "harshness" between an average set of wheels and another average set of wheels. Do you realize that the compliance of a wheel (how much it gives way under load) is less than the thickness of a sheet of printer paper? For you to discern between 80gsm and 90gsm printer paper as you ride over it is pretty remarkable. To put it differently, If I make you ride over a line of coins, you'll thus be able to shout out whether they are facing up heads or tails as you ride.



I think the problem is, people simply have no idea what sort of time savings are realistic for a given reduction in either weight or drag. The reality is, the gains are generally so small that they are not perceptible.

I have done enough field testing and data gathering now that if the weather forecast is reasonably accurate, using a model, I can typically predict my 10 mile time trial times to within a few seconds (as the distance increases the error also increases, on technical courses, error also increases due to the cornering, but that aside...). Using this model, you can do things such as knock a couple of hundred grams off and estimate how much time it will save you, the time savings for such decreases in weight are so small that they come from unperceptible increases in speed.

Even in extreme cases, like up a steep hill, if you think you can perceive say 10-15 seconds (extreme made up number) worth of speed increase over a 1 mile, >12% climb, you are kidding yourself.


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## Arjimlad (21 May 2015)

PRs on some segments flowed with no discernible increase in pedalling effort. And my bum can feel that the Shimano wheels are giving a less compliant ride than the CXP33s. I can't explain why. Same tyres, same bike..


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## vickster (21 May 2015)

I didn't buy the Fulcrums for time or weight savings, the wheels really aren't the major impediment here! But I needed wheels for a build and the Fulcrum 5s were the best looking and best reviewed ones for my budget (under £200). However, the white hubs really didn't look good, so I bought another pair with black hubs and put the others on another bike  (and I offset the cost by selling the old ones which were lightly used)

I'd say only buy new wheels if you need them or want to spend some money on the bike  As I said, for the OP, I'd buy a carbon fork first if the bike doesn't have one, but I'm more interested in comfort than speed. The OP wants to treat himself and wheels are a pretty reasonable way of doing that, compared to a groupset or a new bike


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## Rob3rt (21 May 2015)

Arjimlad said:


> PRs on some segments flowed with *no discernible increase in pedalling effort.* And my bum can feel that the Shimano wheels are giving a less compliant ride than the CXP33s. I can't explain why. Same tyres, same bike..



That sometimes happens to me, then I review the power data or look at the weather data and realise I was either on a bionic day putting out a load of extra power for no increase in perceived effort, or I had a mega tailwind!


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## Rob3rt (21 May 2015)

vickster said:


> I didn't buy the Fulcrums for time or weight savings, the wheels really aren't the major impediment here! But I needed wheels for a build and the Fulcrum 5s were the best looking and best reviewed ones for my budget (under £200). However, the white hubs really didn't look good, so I bought another pair with black hubs and put the others on another bike  (and I offset the cost by selling the old ones which were lightly used)
> 
> I'd say only buy new wheels if you need them or want to spend some money on the bike



I think that is fair enough. Even buying the wheels for an increase in performance if fair enough, hell whatever reason, if you want new wheels get them and enjoy them! I guess my point was that there is an associated increase in performance with lighter or more aero equipment and this will be reflected in times, all else being equal, however the gains from single changes are generally so small that aggregated over any distance or duration long enough to provide reasonable resolution in detecting them, they are not perceptible in real time.


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## Justinslow (21 May 2015)

Rob3rt said:


> I think that is fair enough. Even buying the wheels for an increase in performance if fair enough, hell whatever reason, if you want new wheels get them and enjoy them! I guess my point was that there is an associated increase in performance with lighter or more aero equipment and this will be reflected in times, all else being equal, however the gains from single changes are generally so small that aggregated over any distance or duration long enough to provide reasonable resolution in detecting them, they are not perceptible in real time.


Ok, over a standard 10 mile TT, what would the difference be in time between using a set of shimano R501's and a set of your expensive TT wheels?


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## Justinslow (21 May 2015)

Yellow Saddle said:


> @Usehernamegood
> 
> Let's try and help you sensibly.
> 
> What problem are you trying to solve?


Answer - £200 burning a hole in his pocket.
With that money he fancied some new wheels and was asking peoples opinions on what to get.
Did you not read the opening post? I don't recall anybody asking - are they worth it, or will they make me a super dooper rider!


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## Rob3rt (21 May 2015)

Justinslow said:


> Ok, over a standard 10 mile TT, what would the difference be in time between using a set of shimano R501's and a set of your expensive TT wheels?



Given I have no data for the Shimano I can not say, it would be significant at the top end of a TT results sheet yet in real time, it would be unlikely that you would be able to feel it. If it is 30-40 seconds over a 10 mile TT, thats 3-4 seconds per mile.... you will certainly know when you hit the finish line that they have helped since you will get there faster, but moment to moment while riding, you couldn't really tell.

The closest recent comparison I have is riding the same course on my TT bike with normal wheels (if it matters, a Fulcrum R7 in the back, a Pro-Lite Bracciano in the front) and an aero road helmet (LG Course), normal jersey with a bottle in the back pocket (no cage on the bike). Then switching to a disc/trispoke combo, a full TT lid and a speedsuit. I was over 2 minutes faster 2nd time round. The combination of all those gains is certainly perceptable, but any single one alone would be hard to detect in real time.

Edit: It should also be noted that the change of clothing and helmet might well have also resulted in a change of rider position as my tailed helmet gives me head position feedback (I can feel it on my back when I am in the right position and it prompts me to contort myself into a much smaller shape) whereas the road helmet doesn't so my head could have been in a totally different position and I may have neglected to shrug my shoulders in as much and that could also be substantial in terms of drag, especially as I am broad shouldered.


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## Yellow Saddle (21 May 2015)

Arjimlad said:


> PRs on some segments flowed with no discernible increase in pedalling effort.



Hmmmm..



Arjimlad said:


> And my bum can feel that the Shimano wheels are giving a less compliant ride than the CXP33s. I can't explain why. Same tyres, same bike..



Obviously you are calibrated like a machine. That explains it.


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## Citius (21 May 2015)

Justinslow said:


> Answer - £200 burning a hole in his pocket.
> With that money he fancied some new wheels and was asking peoples opinions on what to get.



If that's his only criteria, then just buy any wheels that cost £200.


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## Justinslow (21 May 2015)

Rob3rt said:


> Given I have no data for the Shimano I can not say, it would be significant at the top end of a TT results sheet yet in real time, you still wouldn't be able to feel it. If it is 30-40 seconds over a 10 mile TT, thats 3-4 seconds per mile....
> 
> The closest recent comparison I have is riding the same course on my TT bike with normal wheels and an aero road helmet, normal jersey. Then switching to a disc/trispoke combo, a full TT lid and a speedsuit. I was over 2 minutes faster 2nd time round. The combination of all those gains is certainly perceptable, but any single one alone would be hard to detect in real time.


Thanks for your answer, yes my example was a bit vague, but never the less you would expect over 10 miles of similar levels of effort to be quicker on the TT wheels.


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## Rob3rt (21 May 2015)

Justinslow said:


> Thanks for your answer, yes my example was a bit vague, but never the less you would expect over 10 miles of similar levels of effort to be quicker on the TT wheels.



Yes, but the point is, at any particular moment, during the ride you wouldn't be able to tell you are going faster, not really. This is contrary to what many people claim they experience when they buy new wheels.


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## Yellow Saddle (21 May 2015)

Justinslow said:


> Answer - £200 burning a hole in his pocket.
> With that money he fancied some new wheels and was asking peoples opinions on what to get.
> Did you not read the opening post? I don't recall anybody asking - are they worth it, or will they make me a super dooper rider!



Maybe you need to read the OP's opening post. He said he wanted to upgrade. In other words, his current wheels are no longer satisfactory and he wants to go for something higher up on the scale (of something). Knowing what problem he's trying to solve can help. For instance, if he's entered an Iron Man with a 180km time trial on a windy course or, he's too heavy for his current wheels and keeps on breaking spokes or he wants to switch to tubulars..... See what I'm getting at?

Further, I never stated new wheels will not be worth it or make him a better rider. I think you are stuck in another post in the past. However, hang around and that claim will come up, I'll address it then.

But just imagine if we discover that he doesn't need other wheels and we can save him GBP200. Wouldn't that be something?


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## Yellow Saddle (21 May 2015)

Rob3rt said:


> Yes, but the point is, at any particular moment, during the ride you wouldn't be able to tell you are going faster, not really. This is contrary to what many people claim they experience.


Exactly!


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## Justinslow (21 May 2015)

Citius said:


> If that's his only criteria, then just buy any wheels that cost £200.


You two (citius and YS) talk in Black and white, almost robotic computer speak, so if we take that example - next time I go to the shop and I need a box of washing powder and I have £10 to spend shall I just buy a box that is £10 or have a look around at my options? Maybe you would rather live in some un democratic middle eastern country where you have no options rather than here in the UK where we have freedom of choice (where I'm guessing you live, I could be wrong) I'm sorry I just don't get it.


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## Justinslow (21 May 2015)

Rob3rt said:


> Yes, but the point is, at any particular moment, during the ride you wouldn't be able to tell you are going faster, not really. This is contrary to what many people claim they experience when they buy new wheels.


I'm not saying you could feel it, but never the less you would be faster.


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## Citius (21 May 2015)

Justinslow said:


> You two (citius and YS) talk in Black and white, almost robotic computer speak, so if we take that example - next time I go to the shop and I need a box of washing powder and I have £10 to spend shall I just buy a box that is £10 or have a look around at my options? Maybe you would rather live in some un democratic middle eastern country where you have no options rather than here in the UK where we have freedom of choice (where I'm guessing you live, I could be wrong) I'm sorry I just don't get it.



Thank you for making my point. So how is it possible to discuss options without also discussing the relative merits of those options? And how would you discuss which merits would be appealing without first establishing the guy's riding preferences?


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## vickster (21 May 2015)

Usehernamegood said:


> Thanks for your responses. I'm not a heavy rider, weighing in at 70kg. I want something a lot lighter (and nicer looking) than the standard Axis Classic the bike comes with. Budget below £200, I don't mind paying that little bit extra as I'm cycling around 80 miles a week and think a decent set of wheels will be worth it.


@Citius

To be fair the nicer looking isn't really answerable as it's so subjective. I for one think those deep rim wheels with decals look awful, but others seem to like them

@Usehernamegood why not go to a few local bike shops and have a look at the options, see what appeals, read some reviews and then come back and ask for subjective opinions


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## Citius (21 May 2015)

if he's only cycling 80 miles a week and his budget is only £200, then my opinion is that he will be wasting his money. Spend on some quality folding rubber and go from there.


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## Yellow Saddle (21 May 2015)

vickster said:


> cut cut cut cut why not go to a few local bike shops and have a look at the options, see what appeals, read some reviews and then come back and ask for subjective opinions



You mean objective opinions surely?


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## Citius (21 May 2015)

I think 'subjective' is probably accurate, as everyone tends to just recommend the wheels they already have


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## vickster (21 May 2015)

Yellow Saddle said:


> You mean objective opinions surely?


No subjective, we can only comment on what we experience with the wheels we have. Even reviewers only review the wheels as they find them, perhaps with comparison to others, BUT they wouldn't have ridden every wheel on the market, on every bike, on every road and in every weather condition and so on...
As Citius says


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## Justinslow (21 May 2015)

Citius said:


> Thank you for making my point. So how is it possible to discuss options without also discussing the relative merits of those options? And how would you discuss which merits would be appealing without first establishing the guy's riding preferences?


I'm sorry, you are just going way beyond what was asked......as usual.


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## vickster (21 May 2015)

Justinslow said:


> I'm sorry, you are just going way beyond what was asked......as usual.


He's answered now


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## Citius (21 May 2015)

Justinslow said:


> I'm sorry, you are just going way beyond what was asked......as usual.



That doesn't surprise me. Because what is being asked is way too simplistic.....as usual


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## jowwy (21 May 2015)

but what if the OP already uses quality folding rubber and still has £200 burning a hole in his pocket?

the usual numpties destroying a thread, just because someone has asked for advice on what to spend HIS money on


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## Citius (21 May 2015)

jowwy said:


> but what if the OP already uses quality folding rubber and still has £200 burning a hole in his pocket?



He could bet it on a horse and then spend his £800 winnings on a better set. If the horse loses, then he's stuck with the current wheels. Nothing ventured, 'n all that. You've got to admit, the idea's got legs.


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## Yellow Saddle (21 May 2015)

vickster said:


> No subjective, we can only comment on what we experience with the wheels we have. Even reviewers only review the wheels as they find them, perhaps with comparison to others, BUT they wouldn't have ridden every wheel on the market, on every bike, on every road and in every weather condition and so on...
> As Citius says



I see what you say and maybe I have my semantics tied in a knot. What I mean is that subjective opinions are of no use. It merely states what we think and that would be without objectivity. If I was to give a subjective opinion on Justinlow's wheels I would say they are red and pretty. That doesn't mean that you would find them pretty because they are red. Subjectivity is fancifulness.

An objective opinion on the other hand would be based on fact. In that case I would have said nothing based on what I like but purely on what I experienced e.g. the bearings in the freehub are small and tend to fail very quickly or, tests in a wind tunnel have shown that those wheels have no advantage over the wheels you currently have on your bike.

My ultimate point is that asking for a subjective opinion (I think that's tautology in anyway) is useless. What does it matter? I see red wheels, I like them, I buy them. Why would I need an opinion on that?

Where have I gone off the rails?


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## Yellow Saddle (21 May 2015)

jowwy said:


> but what if the OP already uses quality folding rubber and still has £200 burning a hole in his pocket?
> 
> the usual numpties destroying a thread, just because someone has asked for advice on what to spend HIS money on



Why would I not deride a question from a stranger asking me what he should spend his money on? Is he wasting my time? Is he tyre-kicking? Is he bragging that he's got 200 smackers that he has no use for? Does he not have a pension fund? Is he totally oblivious to the concept of gratuitous consumption?

*Mod Edit:* some content removed


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## Justinslow (21 May 2015)

Yellow Saddle said:


> Why would I not deride a question from a stranger asking me what he should spend his money on? Is he wasting my time? Is he tyre-kicking? Is he bragging that he's got 200 smackers that he has no use for? Does he not have a pension fund? Is he totally oblivious to the concept of gratuitous consumption?
> 
> *Mod Edit:* some content removed


It must be great going out for a pint with you two - after discussing the relative merits of different ales you decide against purchasing any beer, instead preferring to drink tap water and save your money by investing it in a pension!!!!! And then sitting in silence.


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## Hacienda71 (21 May 2015)

We could just give our own real life experiences of wheels we have owned. I have had spoke and bearing issues with one brand although their wheels were exceptionally good value etc my experience has not been isolated. I learn't this from reading advice on forums including CC and that is why people tend to ask. If we respond in a helpful manner then we then have a "fun friendly forum" where people don't feel afraid to ask questions for fear of being derided at the mere thought of spending their hard earned cash. Yes a wheelset may not make a perceivable difference in speed but as Robert has said it will make some difference. If the person wants to go faster (that is not what the OP asked) then you can bang on about the benefits of training and skinsuits buying more time than wheels etc.


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## jowwy (21 May 2015)

Yellow Saddle said:


> Why would I not deride a question from a stranger asking me what he should spend his money on? Is he wasting my time? Is he tyre-kicking? Is he bragging that he's got 200 smackers that he has no use for? Does he not have a pension fund? Is he totally oblivious to the concept of gratuitous consumption?
> 
> *Mod Edit:* some content removed


He asked for advice on new wheels for 200,

*Mod Edit:* some content removed


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## Hacienda71 (21 May 2015)

Justinslow said:


> It must be great going out for a pint with you two - after discussing the relative merits of different ales you decide against purchasing any beer, instead preferring to drink tap water and save your money by investing it in a pension!!!!! And then sitting in silence.


There are no merits in discussing ales they all have similar alchol content and therefore gets you pissed, the rest is an irrelevance.


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## vickster (21 May 2015)

@Yellow Saddle And that is also what I said regarding the look of wheels, deep dim are vile to my eyes, but the OP may not be of that opinion, that's his subjective opinion as it is mine.

Where this might be useful is if, once he's asked the initial question and done some research and he says I like X & Y, what do you think...10 people could say no, I found those to be a heap of junk, which the OP might find useful or he may buy them anyhow cos he likes the look.

Experience is also subjective. mine might be completely different to yours as we are different and expect and experience different things. It isn't black and white. I'm not an engineer as you seem to be though, I spend my time analysing and interpreting market research data, that is pretty subjective and what I see in the data could be completely different to the rest of the world, doesn't mean it's wrong though  I actually don't care about the technical side of anything very much, I'm more about look and feel...that could be a gender thing however 

Generally if I want to upgrade my bike, I don't p!ss around with wheels, I just get a new bike 

I have said he needs to budget for tyres and tubes too and that if he doesn't have a carbon fork he might consider that, to me that would be a more worthwhile upgrade than wheels, along with decent tyres if he doesn't have some already

This is the nature of forums, people ask for help and potentially subjective opinions...if you don't like it, I would suggest you don't read the threads


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## Usehernamegood (21 May 2015)

To those that engaged in friendly conversation with advice and suggestions - thank you.

To those that didn't - I shall post a new thread for you all to comment on how irrelevant your bs opinions are.


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## Yellow Saddle (21 May 2015)

Vickster said:


> Experience is also subjective. mine might be completely different to yours as we are different and expect and experience different things.



I disagree. Experience is objective. For example, you either experienced a spoke failure or you did not. Perceptions are subjective though.



Vickster said:


> and that if he doesn't have a carbon fork he might consider that, to me that would be a more worthwhile upgrade than wheels, along with decent tyres if he doesn't have some already



This illustrates my point to an extent. You've just given advice (real or as for an example about the discussion on semantics) but without stating why he should get a carbon fork. I would think there's more value in saying "get a carbon fork instead, because of XYZ."



Vickster said:


> This is the nature of forums, people ask for help and potentially subjective opinions...if you don't like it, I would suggest you don't read the threads


The s word rears its head again and again I disagree with subjective advice unless helping your wife choose a colour for the kitchen floor. But nevermind.

On the nature of forums, I disagree with your approach. If I don't agree with something I say so and motivate my point of view. Not reading the threads is not really contributing to the debate, now is it?


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## Yellow Saddle (21 May 2015)

Usehernamegood said:


> To those that engaged in friendly conversation with advice and suggestions - thank you.
> 
> To those that didn't - I shall post a new thread for you all to comment on how irrelevant your bs opinions are.



It's a pleasure. I'm just glad we could help by saving you a load of money.


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## vickster (21 May 2015)

Yellow Saddle said:


> It's a pleasure. I'm just glad we could help by saving you a load of money.



I doubt you have managed to change his mind at all given the nature of your posting. I'd be more inclined to disregard anything you say from now on...and indeed...


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## Hacienda71 (21 May 2015)

Yellow Saddle said:


> I disagree. Experience is objective. For example, you either experienced a spoke failure or you did not. Perceptions are subjective though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Why are you quoting what Vickster has said as if I said it?


I don't have a problem with someone saying I disagree with something someone else has posted. It is how it is said that matters. CC is set up by the owner to be "a fun and friendly cycling community" and self righteous chastising and thread derailments isn't what most members of the Forum want to read and borders on trolling. That is the point I am making. You can disagree with people politely. It ain't that hard.


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## vickster (21 May 2015)

Hacienda71 said:


> Why are you quoting what Vickster has said as if I said it?


Cos he's a spanner?

If he could quote the right person and understand English, he'd see I did give a reason for carbon fork over wheels...comfort over speed 

Anyhow, he's now on ignore, phew! This thread is now sensible again


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## Justinslow (21 May 2015)

Yellow Saddle said:


> It's a pleasure. I'm just glad we could help by saving you a load of money.


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## Justinslow (21 May 2015)

Hacienda71 said:


> Why are you quoting what Vickster has said as if I said it?


He's using the force, be careful! You are no Jedi.............


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## vickster (21 May 2015)

Justinslow said:


> He's using the force, be careful! You are no Jedi.............


I'd maybe go with a word that rhymes with force...sauce perhaps...


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## Cuchilo (21 May 2015)

You can buy two wheels for £200 ?


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## MikeW-71 (21 May 2015)

Perhaps I can summarise my experiences thus:

Choose some decent wheels. Up to £200 is more than enough.

The bike will feel a bit different, should be a bit more eager to go (and stop), maybe quicker to turn in.

They will not make you go 5mph faster, only improving the engine can do that.


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## Yellow Saddle (21 May 2015)

Hacienda71 said:


> Why are you quoting what Vickster has said as if I said it?
> 
> 
> I don't have a problem with someone saying I disagree with something someone else has posted. It is how it is said that matters. CC is set up by the owner to be "a fun and friendly cycling community" and self righteous chastising and thread derailments isn't what most members of the Forum want to read and borders on trolling. That is the point I am making. You can disagree with people politely. It ain't that hard.


It is a mistake of sorts. I really have no idea why that happened but it was certainly supposed to quote Vickster and I intended to debate him, not you. I apologise and will try and fix it.


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## potsy (21 May 2015)

Yellow Saddle said:


> It is a mistake of sorts. I really have no idea why that happened but it was certainly supposed to quote Vickster and I intended to debate *him*, not you. I apologise and will try and fix it.


You might have another mistake to fix there too


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## Yellow Saddle (21 May 2015)

potsy said:


> You might have another mistake to fix there too


oh hu.....


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## Justinslow (21 May 2015)

Just got back from an 8 mile TT with my local club. I improved my time by 1.09, which I'm attributing entirely to my new Superstar wheels, as the time I beat was set on R501's 
As Yellow saddle likes the "shiny red" look here's another picture taken tonight before my TT








Disclaimer, don't tell yellow saddle but.................the increase in speed could also be attributed to: my increased fitness, better lighter tyres also fitted, new Ultegra cassette, more favourable conditions on the night or magic. 
https://www.strava.com/activities/308986620


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## Kestevan (21 May 2015)

Justinslow said:


> .........
> Disclaimer, don't tell yellow saddle but.................the increase in speed could also be attributed to: my increased fitness, better lighter tyres also fitted, new Ultegra cassette, more favourable conditions on the night or magic.
> https://www.strava.com/activities/308986620



Careful now... You will have YS back with a load of graphs to prove that this new fangled magic is really no better than good old fashioned sorcery, and that you'd be better off keeping your original pentagrams......


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## potsy (21 May 2015)

Justinslow said:


> the increase in speed could also be attributed to: my increased fitness, better lighter tyres also fitted, new Ultegra cassette, more favourable conditions on the night or magic


My guess is the cassette


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## Usehernamegood (22 May 2015)

I think Yellow Saddle's dad is bigger than my dad.


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## Citius (22 May 2015)

Once again, everyone seems to be attacking the messenger rather than the message. Read up people, he hasn't said a single thing that is incorrect. And if you think he has, then go out and find a decent counter-argument.


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## Kestevan (22 May 2015)

Citius said:


> Once again, everyone seems to be attacking the messenger rather than the message. Read up people, he hasn't said a single thing that is incorrect. And if you think he has, then go out and find a decent counter-argument.



I suspect a lot are attacking the manner in which the message is delivered, rather than the actual content per se. 
This is supposed to be a welcoming and friendly community - Unfortunately over the last few months it feels like this has been forgotten by some posters in their zeal to ram their point of view on anyone and everyone. I know this new atmosphere has caused some people who've been around for a long time to no longer visit,.


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## Yellow Saddle (22 May 2015)

Kestevan said:


> I suspect a lot are attacking the manner in which the message is delivered, rather than the actual content per se.
> This is supposed to be a welcoming and friendly community - Unfortunately over the last few months it feels like this has been forgotten by some posters in their zeal to ram their point of view on anyone and everyone. I know this new atmosphere has caused some people who've been around for a long time to no longer visit,.



Kestevan, could you please point out where I was rude to anybody, unfriendly or dishonest etc? I try to play the ball, not the man. Yes I robustly defend points I make with back-up data and explanations where applicable and this seems to offend those who disagree without a valid counter argument. If anyone without a counter-argument feels offended because they could not defend their stance, that is just too bad. They can react differently - keep quiet, defend validly or concede. However, they tend to insult. See the spanner comment above and your own "ram down their point of view" comment above, not to mention your reference to graphs and sorcery. These are hardly counter-arguments worthy of a technical discussion.


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## Justinslow (22 May 2015)

Yellow Saddle said:


> Kestevan, could you please point out where I was rude to anybody, unfriendly or dishonest etc? I try to play the ball, not the man. Yes I robustly defend points I make with back-up data and explanations where applicable and this seems to offend those who disagree without a valid counter argument. If anyone without a counter-argument feels offended because they could not defend their stance, that is just too bad. They can react differently - keep quiet, defend validly or concede. However, they tend to insult. See the spanner comment above and your own "ram down their point of view" comment above, not to mention your reference to graphs and sorcery. These are hardly counter-arguments worthy of a technical discussion.


The problem IS this
Someone WANTS to buy wheels
Someone WANTS some advice on their options
Someone DIDNT WANT to be told if they needed them or not.
Simple.


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## Yellow Saddle (22 May 2015)

Justinslow said:


> The problem IS this
> Someone WANTS to buy wheels
> Someone WANTS some advice on their options
> Someone DIDNT WANT to be told if they needed them or not.
> Simple.



The problem is this:
Someone is thinking of buying new wheels does some online tyre kicking.
Nobody asks why and what problem the OP is trying to solve.
Everybody recommends from a very narrow set of options all relating to their limited ownership of wheels.
Nobody gives any real advice in terms of data, mechanical reliability etc.
Everybody goes around stroking everyone's ego.
Lots of hearsay and magazine-inspired wisdom is bandied about.
No-one is allowed to challenge claims made.
Challenges to spurious claims are treated with hostility.
Everything remains very fluffy and nothing is achieved.


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## jowwy (22 May 2015)

Yellow Saddle said:


> The problem is this:
> Someone is thinking of buying new wheels does some online tyre kicking.
> Nobody asks why and what problem the OP is trying to solve.
> Everybody recommends from a very narrow set of options all relating to their limited ownership of wheels.
> ...


What if the OP is not trying to solve any problem and he just wants advice and spending HIS money on wheels, brakes, tyres, cables whatever.........


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## Justinslow (22 May 2015)

jowwy said:


> What if the OP is not trying to solve any problem and he just wants advice and spending HIS money on wheels, brakes, tyres, cables whatever.........


Round and round in circles, the penny does not drop.


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## vickster (22 May 2015)

I don't think YS gets the spending of money without any objective reasoning.

Human beings don't only make decisions solely based on need, technical superiority of whatever they are considering, emotion, greed, jealousy and other human frailties may also be involved. There are individuals for whom this is not the case, which is fine, we are all different. However they may also lack empathetic thinking to understand why others may choose on a different basis...this seems to be the root cause of why this thread is not just made up of people suggesting their preferred wheels to the OP ... And lots of frustration and teeth gnashing 

Oh and some people just like to 'debate' with people on t'interweb!


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## vickster (22 May 2015)

Oh @Usehernamegood did you choose some wheels yet


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## Justinslow (22 May 2015)

vickster said:


> Oh @Usehernamegood did you choose some wheels yet


@Userhernamegood has left the building!!!


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## Mo1959 (22 May 2015)

Justinslow said:


> @Userhernamegood has left the building!!!


Not surprised!


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## Citius (22 May 2015)

vickster said:


> I don't think YS gets the spending of money without any objective reasoning.
> 
> Human beings don't only make decisions solely based on need, technical superiority of whatever they are considering, emotion, greed, jealousy and other human frailties may also be involved. There are individuals for whom this is not the case, which is fine, we are all different.
> !



By definition, those people don't need to be asking for advice in the first place.


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## Yellow Saddle (22 May 2015)

jowwy said:


> What if the OP is not trying to solve any problem and he just wants advice and spending HIS money on wheels, brakes, tyres, cables whatever.........


Did you even think about this before hitting the Post button.

How can someone ask for advice without wanting to solve a problem?


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## Justinslow (22 May 2015)

Mo1959 said:


> Not surprised!


Another satisfied customer


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## Justinslow (22 May 2015)

Is this déjà vu? Could have sworn I've done all this before.......


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## Citius (22 May 2015)

Justinslow said:


> Is this déjà vu? Could have sworn I've done all this before.......



Almost every week, I would guess...


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## jowwy (22 May 2015)

Yellow Saddle said:


> Did you even think about this before hitting the Post button.
> 
> How can someone ask for advice without wanting to solve a problem?


I bought a new set of wheels without having a problem to solve - I just wanted new wheels, I had the cash to buy them, so I did.......simples


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## Justinslow (22 May 2015)

jowwy said:


> I bought a new set of wheels without having a problem to solve - I just wanted new wheels, I had the cash to buy them, so I did.......simples


WHAT! How dare you! 
To the gallows!


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## Citius (22 May 2015)

jowwy said:


> I bought a new set of wheels without having a problem to solve - I just wanted new wheels, I had the cash to buy them, so I did.......simples



How did you know which ones to buy?


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## winjim (22 May 2015)

The question in the title of the thread is: Wheels, where do I begin?

The answer is: With an analysis of your current wheels, bike, riding style and objectives.

Easy.


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## Citius (22 May 2015)

winjim said:


> The question in the title of the thread is: Wheels, where do I begin?
> 
> The answer is: With an analysis of your current wheels, bike, riding style and objectives.
> 
> Easy.



That sort of clarity and logic doesn't go down well on threads like this...


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## Yellow Saddle (22 May 2015)

jowwy said:


> I bought a new set of wheels without having a problem to solve - I just wanted new wheels, I had the cash to buy them, so I did.......simples


Try again. This time read my question carefully. Hint: the question has nothing to do with wheels.


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## SatNavSaysStraightOn (22 May 2015)

*Mod Note:*
If this thread continues as it was, there will be thread bans issued.
Keep it polite and do not continue with the name calling, bickering and the likes.


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## Sittingduck (22 May 2015)

SatNavSaysStraightOn said:


> *Mod Note:*
> If this thread continues as it was, there will be thread bans issued.
> Keep it polite and do not continue with the name calling, bickering and *the likes*.



Does that mean I will get banned if I _like_ a post in this thread?


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## Usehernamegood (22 May 2015)

Mo1959 said:


> Not surprised!


I'm here! It's just become wheely confusing about what wheels to buy. I think I've come to the point where I will take YS's advice and take my wheels off my bike as they are not necessary.


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## SpokeyDokey (22 May 2015)

@Yellow Saddle

FWIW: I quite like your robust debunking of the absolute codswallop that surrounds the purchase of new/upgraded/lighter/better/quicker wheels.

Reasons why many people really buy new wheels:

New wheels have less spokes - this makes them better. Obviously!

New wheels have deeper rims - this also makes them better.

New wheels have a rim or hub or spokes or decal that has a hint of colour that matches a hint of colour on the rest of the bike.

New wheels have 'magic' brand name plastered all over them.

New wheels have interesting spoke pattern created using 1960's Spirograph technology.

New wheels are not the same as the ones that came originally with the bike - these are obviously crap even if the bike cost well north of a few thousand pounds.

Etc.


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## Scoosh (22 May 2015)

*MOD NOTE:*
Many Off Topic posts have been Deleted.

Please try to assist the OP in his quest for some new wheels and not derail this thread any further.


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## Yellow Saddle (22 May 2015)

OK.
OP, you need some new wheels. Why do you need new wheels and what is wrong with the wheels you currently have?

You ask about size and materials. Use the size you currently have on there and as for materials, what do you currently have on there and how does that material not satisfy your needs?


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## Spoked Wheels (22 May 2015)

I'll have a go at helping the OP.

At your weight you can ride pretty much what you like.

I don't know if somebody has suggested handbuilt wheels already but it would be an opportunity to have wheels bespoke to your taste.

.


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## Justinslow (22 May 2015)

Yellow Saddle said:


> OK.
> OP, you need some new wheels. Why do you need new wheels and what is wrong with the wheels you currently have?


1 Coz he just wants some.
2 Nothing
Fair enough?
Ok then, do a load of searching on the internet at your budget level, look at the reviews, look at other CC's experiences and advice (that bit didn't go so well) choose some wheels that in your mind are "better" than what you currently have, this could be - nicer colour, lighter weight, less spokes, more spokes, whatever, and finally purchase wheels and fit and enjoy! 
That's what I did and it worked for me. 8 pages, really, 8 pages!


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## Cyclist33 (23 May 2015)

Scoosh said:


> *MOD NOTE:*
> Many Off Topic posts have been Deleted.
> 
> Please try to assist the OP in his quest for some new wheels and not derail this thread any further.



To be fair that isn't precisely how he worded his original post.


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## Cyclist33 (23 May 2015)

Justinslow said:


> 1 Coz he just wants some.
> 2 Nothing
> Fair enough?
> Ok then, do a load of searching on the internet at your budget level, look at the reviews, look at other CC's experiences and advice (that bit didn't go so well) choose some wheels that in your mind are "better" than what you currently have, this could be - nicer colour, lighter weight, less spokes, more spokes, whatever, and finally purchase wheels and fit and enjoy!
> That's what I did and it worked for me. 8 pages, really, 8 pages!



So which of those bits of advice are any use whatsoever?


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## Spoked Wheels (23 May 2015)

Cyclist33 said:


> So which of those bits of advice are any use whatsoever?


I think it's the bit where he said that's how he did it and it worked for him. If you think about most people go through similar process unless he/she goes to a wheelbuilder and tell him what he/she wants out the wheels and both work out what the wheels would be like at a given cost.

Why people need to be so patronising? If somebody comes here and says "hey guys, I have an xyz bike but I'd like to upgrade it.... what do you suggest I get?" Is there a need to ask why do you want to upgrade when all you are waiting to say is "there's no benefit". I mean, I have upgraded a few things on my bike knowingly it would make no difference to the performance but to me it would be a piece of the look or something else I'd be trying to achieve, I don't need anybody to tell me to keep the money in the bank and for a ride instead.


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## Spoked Wheels (23 May 2015)

SpokeyDokey said:


> @Yellow Saddle
> 
> FWIW: I quite like your robust debunking of the absolute codswallop that surrounds the purchase of new/upgraded/lighter/better/quicker wheels.
> 
> ...



I think I know where you are coming from but if the guy is not using your money to purchase the upgrade then there's no need to get silly about it.

The guy wants new wheels, he must have his reasons so if we know something then let's suggest something.


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## Tojo (23 May 2015)

Spoked Wheels said:


> I think I know where you are coming from but if the guy is not using your money to purchase the upgrade then there's no need to get silly about it.
> 
> The guy wants new wheels, he must have his reasons so if we know something then let's suggest something.



..and I like your signature.....A wheel that breaks spokes is a wheel that was not properly built, as a load of my mates ride Giants and they have all had at least one spoke snap.

Anyway, I've had a pair of campag zonda's for a while and a few of said mates have tried and bought them lately, one just yesterday, I like them and when they have tried them they were sold, The zondas seem to be a good choice for quality at the price.........


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## Citius (23 May 2015)

Zondas seem to be the default recommendation on these forums, so just buy them. And, in true forum style, I am happy to recommend them without any knowledge or reference as to whether they would suit your riding or aesthetic preferences.


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## winjim (23 May 2015)

I get the impression the OP was wanting to know more about wheels so they can make up their own mind. Now there are more knowledgable folk than me here but I'll give it a go. I'm talking about modern road bike wheels.

A wheel basically has three parts, the hub, the rim and the spokes. There are also tyres and tubes but that's a separate issue.

Hubs: Contains an axle about which the body of the hub rotates on bearings. Some hubs have sealed bearings, some have cup and cone. Sealed bearings are low maintenance - when they start to fail you just pop them out and replace them as a unit. This may however require a special tool. Cup and cone bearings are better able to deal with the lateral loads that are put on the wheel when cornering, but require more diligent maintenance and adjustment. You can get fancy ceramic bearings but these are outside the op's budget.

The hub body is usually aluminium. The sizes of the flanges on the rear may be different sizes. This is supposedly to cope with the increased load placed on the drive side when pedalling. The rear hub also contains the freehub. This is a ratchet system which allows the bike to coast. You need to make sure that the freehub body is compatible with your groupset manufacturer and speed. If your bike has disc brakes the hub has mounts for the rotor.

Rims: Can be made of aluminium, carbon fibre or a mixture of the two. For a £200 wheel for general use, forget carbon. It can make for a light and aerodynamic wheel but is expensive and brittle. Get one with an aluminium rim.

The width of the rim determines what tyres you can use. A rim for touring will be wider to accommodate a larger tyre. A rim for the type of road bike described in the op will be about 15 - 20 mm wide to fit a skinny road tyre. The depth of the rim affects aerodynamics and weight. A deeper rim will be more aero but heavier. A shallower rim will be lighter. The rear rim may be assymmetric. This is to do with spoke tension on a dished wheel. Dishing is where the spokes are shorter on one side of the wheel, to accommodate the freehub or a disc brake rotor. This changes the angle and tension of the spokes. A disc brake specific rim may not be suitable for rim brakes as it will have no braking track.

Spokes: May be steel or carbon. Carbon is light but is expensive and brittle. Steel spokes will usually be round and double butted. This means they are thinner in the middle to give them more flex, which is a good thing. They may be bladed which improves aerodynamics, but are harder to source replacements and may require specialist tools to replace.

Spoke count and pattern varies. A higher spoke count wheel, 32 or more, will be easier to keep true and be able to cope with greater loads. A low spoke count wheel will be lighter, but will have a rider weight limit and may go out of true easily. A broken spoke on a 20 spoke wheel probably means a walk home whereas with a 32 spoke wheel you could more than likely carry on riding. There are different spoke patterns supposed to affect the handling characteristics of the wheels. If they do, it's only marginally at best.

A standard wheel with steel double butted spokes can be fixed by any wheelbuilder. Some of the fancy factory wheels use specific parts which can only be sourced and fitted by their own agents.

All these factors come in to play when choosing wheels. There is an awful lot of mumbo jumbo about the performance gains of particular factors, so bear in mind that these gains are likely to be marginal at best. See Rob3rt's post about TTs for an idea. You will have seen a lot of lively debate about weight vs aero etc so try and read it all with a critical mind. Personally I like a set of wheels that I can keep true and maintain myself - so I built my own!

I am happy to be corrected on any of these points by those with more expertise. Sorry for loser length post.


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## raleighnut (23 May 2015)

I've got a pair of these and I believe Roval are part of the Specialized group, they seem to be fitted as standard to some models, I love em


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## Mugshot (23 May 2015)

Tojo said:


> Anyway, I've had a pair of campag zonda's for a while and a few of said mates have tried and bought them lately, one just yesterday, I like them and when they have tried them they were sold, The zondas seem to be a good choice for quality at the price.........


Yeah, every bugger is getting them now they've dropped the price AGAIN  (not that I'm bitter or anything). I've had mine for around 15 months or so, and I really like them, had mavic aksiums on the bike before. 
They're light and smooth and stiff and compliant, they really feel like they want to go as soon as you turn the pedal, at the price point (current, not what I paid , still not bitter) they are hard to beat. They roll beautifully with a lovely quiet freehub, they're quick on the flat, climb like a mountain goat and descend like something really quick too. Now have I missed anything, oh yeah, get ready for the KOMs cos you'll be a strava god with these hoops. 
Seriously, they're nice (well I think so) and a bloody good price too (  ), biggest issue is they're as common as muck now


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## Yellow Saddle (23 May 2015)

I think @winjim nailed it beautifully. Unfortunately @Mugshot committed the classic CC crime of repeating myth and lore. Sorry, but we are committed to honesty here, aren't we?

Mugshot - terms like light and smooth and compliant are no-go terms because they are meaningless and/or cannot be quantified. All wire-spoked wheels other than ones with cubed bearings are light, smooth and kinda-compliant. Wire-spoked wheels were invented for airplane use and are lighter than the solid wheels of the time. If you want to go beyond that, you have to state figures which in themselves are more or less meaningless.

As for compliance - we've been through that here. A wire-spoked wheel "gives" about as much as the thickness of a sheet of paper. If you want to compare, you'll have to say this one "gives" as much as an 80gsm sheet and that one as much as a 120gms sheet. Both dimensions are minuscule and meaningless and cannot be perceived by a human. The compliance of your saddle, the frame and the tyres is much much more.

"Roll beautifully" is also meaningless. I've never seen a wheel that rolls ugly or for that matter, rolls middle-of-the-road.

Stiff....another term that requires qualification. Most wheels are stiff enough to not touch the brakes and bearing in mind that the brakes are about 1mm from the rim, that's pretty stiff. I don't see how within that narrow parameter more stiffness is good or bad.

Freehub noise. Now here's an issue that's important for non-important reasons. Some of us like silent freehubs, others pay good money for freehubs that scare little children and old ladies. It is personal but certainly worth mentioning. There is no mechanical advantage to be derived from either sound.

To say a wheel is quick is meaningless. You are quick or your are slow. The wheels only do what you tell them to do. The incline is irrelevant. We've discussed that ad infinitum here and there are even some maths to illustrate the various points of view.

As a point of note, 24 spokes as on the Roval is not suitable to most of the population. They are specialist wheels for lightweight racers. You will walk home if you break a spoke. Having said that, there is a place for them or, if you really, really like the looks of them then walking home once every 20 000 kms is a small price to pay.

Someone on here mentioned hand-built wheels. Now, I used to make a good living from selling hand-built wheels in a market that was besotted with the word hand-built. I milked it 'till the cows came home. The concept of hand-built kinda goes against the grain. For instance, please don't try and sell me a hand-built cellphone. I prefer robots to build my electronic equipment, spraypaint my car and manufacture the carpets I walk on. The only reason a hand-built wheel could be better than a machine-built wheel is that by hand you can get more tension in the spokes (which is good). A machine can build a perfectly good wheel but it has to be brought up to final tension by hand. Hand-built wheels are sometimes stress-relieved. A good wheelbuilder will do it. But machine built wheels can also be stress relieved.

A hand builder cannot help you in some instances. They can't build you a tubeless wheel or most types of aerodynamic wheels. This is because the components are not available to wheelbuilders. It has nothing to do with the skill, it is just that 16-spoke hubs and 16-hole rims are not readily available, nor are tubeless rims. For those you have to buy factory wheels.

I want to debunk two more frequently-perpetuated myths: Cup-and-cone bearings can be sealed or unsealed. Ditto for cartridge bearings. We define bearings firstly by their construction style and then by their seal. The two properties are not exclusive and can be mixed. Then, humans accelerate infinitely slower than wheels can be accelerated, so a wheel's spin-up rate is irrelevant.

Then, most exotic designs are purely for marketing purposes and help the company differentiate its products visually. I'm talking spoke patterns here. Engineering wise, the best pattern is 3X on both sides. Exceptions to the number of crosses are dictated by component dimensions only.


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## Mugshot (23 May 2015)

WOOOOOOSH!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Yellow Saddle (23 May 2015)

Mugshot said:


> WOOOOOOSH!!!!!!!!!!!



Well, if something is beyond your grasp, best not to advise in that field then.


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## Usehernamegood (23 May 2015)

winjim said:


> I get the impression the OP was wanting to know more about wheels so they can make up their own mind. Now there are more knowledgable folk than me here but I'll give it a go. I'm talking about modern road bike wheels.
> 
> A wheel basically has three parts, the hub, the rim and the spokes. There are also tyres and tubes but that's a separate issue.
> 
> ...


Perfect - thank you.


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## Cyclist33 (23 May 2015)

Yellow Saddle said:


> I think @winjim nailed it beautifully. Unfortunately @Mugshot committed the classic CC crime of repeating myth and lore. Sorry, but we are committed to honesty here, aren't we?
> 
> Mugshot - terms like light and smooth and compliant are no-go terms because they are meaningless and/or cannot be quantified. All wire-spoked wheels other than ones with cubed bearings are light, smooth and kinda-compliant. Wire-spoked wheels were invented for airplane use and are lighter than the solid wheels of the time. If you want to go beyond that, you have to state figures which in themselves are more or less meaningless.
> 
> ...



Now that's what I call advice, it is unfortunate that somebody will be along shortly to take the piss out of it.

As I said in another thread, all yellow saddle is trying to do is save people money that they could spend on, ooh I don't know, their kids, or a nice meal out, or a charity or whatever. It doesn't preclude spending it on the wheels, only to be aware when doing so of what benefits you're not going to get.

As I've also said elsewhere, I believe there is benefit to be found in aesthetics and existence values and some of these might also be quantifiable if not in physics but economics terms. But it still boils down to set a budget and buy whatever turns you on. For that, one needs no advice whatsoever.


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## Yellow Saddle (23 May 2015)

Cyclist33 said:


> *For that, one needs no advice whatsoever*.



Now there is a gem and perhaps the crux of the matter. It is like asking a stranger who you should marry or, more in the cycling vein, what saddle should I buy?


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## Mugshot (23 May 2015)

Yellow Saddle said:


> Well, if something is beyond your grasp, best not to advise in that field then.


 The "Woosh" was for your lack of understanding, not mine.
I dangled a little worm by listing as many phrases/myths/assertions that I could think of off the top of my head which one regularly sees on this type of thread or in magazine reviews hoping that somebody would take the bait. I wasn't disappointed 
I did think I may have given the game away with my final sentence though, ho hum.


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## Cyclist33 (23 May 2015)

Yellow Saddle said:


> Now there is a gem and perhaps the crux of the matter. It is like asking a stranger who you should marry or, more in the cycling vein, what saddle should I buy?



Or, "which advice should I take?"


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## winjim (23 May 2015)

Mugshot said:


> The "Woosh" was for your lack of understanding, not mine.
> I dangled a little worm by listing as many phrases/myths/assertions that I could think of off the top of my head which one regularly sees on this type of thread or in magazine reviews hoping that somebody would take the bait. I wasn't disappointed
> I did think I may have given the game away with my final sentence though, ho hum.


I thought that after moderator intervention we'd stopped taking the mickey out of each other, and were now actually trying to help.


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## Mugshot (23 May 2015)

winjim said:


> I thought that after moderator intervention we'd stopped taking the mickey out of each other, and were now actually trying to help.


Not quite sure who I was taking the mickey out of, myself maybe for buying a set of wheels before they plummeted in price?
It was a reply to @Tojo who said he liked his Zondas, I said I liked them too.
HTH


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## winjim (23 May 2015)

Mugshot said:


> Not quite sure who I was taking the mickey out of, myself maybe for buying a set of wheels before they plummeted in price?
> It was a reply to @Tojo who said he liked his Zondas, I said I liked them too.
> HTH


Dangling a worm so people will take the bait? That's taking the mickey and not, I would imagine, terribly helpful to the OP.


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## Mugshot (23 May 2015)

winjim said:


> Dangling a worm so people will take the bait? That's taking the mickey and not, I would imagine, terribly helpful to the OP.


Just a bit of fun @winjim, I do forget sometimes just how serious this cycling business is.
Anyway, as Zondas have been mentioned a few times already and I'm another satisfied customer, maybe it was helpful to the OP?


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## winjim (23 May 2015)

Mugshot said:


> Just a bit of fun @winjim, I do forget sometimes just how serious this cycling business is.


Yeah, but we've specifically been told not to have any fun. Not on this thread .


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## Mugshot (23 May 2015)

winjim said:


> Yeah, but we've specifically been told not to have any fun. Not on this thread .


Ah, then I shall consider my wrist slapped and await my thread ban


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## Justinslow (23 May 2015)

Cyclist33 said:


> As I said in another thread, all yellow saddle is trying to do is save people money that they could spend on, ooh I don't know, their kids, or a nice meal out, or a charity or whatever. It doesn't preclude spending it on the wheels, only to be aware when doing so of what benefits you're not going to get.
> .


But that was one of the whole problems that started this insanely long thread, it's not for you, Yellow saddle or me to dictate what the OP spends his/her money on. If the OP wants to spend his/her £200 on a gold plated tooth brush - that's their prerogative.
There's been some sensible advice in these posts let's leave it at that we are not children.


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## Cyclist33 (23 May 2015)

Justinslow said:


> But that was one of the whole problems that started this insanely long thread, it's not for you, Yellow saddle or me to dictate what the OP spends his/her money on. If the OP wants to spend his/her £200 on a gold plated tooth brush - that's their prerogative.
> There's been some sensible advice in these posts let's leave it at that we are not children.



Not in precise terms what the original thread asked. It asked for advice but did not explicitly tie that to wheels thus allowing and inviting wider advice. To be honest I'm not sure what anyone's problems were with that wider advice.

But if as you say it's not for us to dictate to someone what to spend their money on, then why was the question asked in the first place, and surely it had to work both ways - if "don't waste your money" is invalid advice then "I like superstars" or "you will not go wrong with zondas" is equally worthless in the opposite direction?

I don't believe it is wrong to have this debate. I do hope it isn't cheapened by personal insults again.


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## Justinslow (23 May 2015)

Cyclist33 said:


> I don't believe it is wrong to have this debate. I do hope it isn't cheapened by personal insults again.


No not at all, there has been good advice on all levels, I haven't read any bad advice, just some advice seems to have been put across very poorly (and perhaps a bit over the top) and in a presumptuous arrogant manner. When I choose my wheels I decided I wanted lighter and hopefully "quicker" to try to help my time trials and within a budget of £200, that's it. I wasn't that worried about what they looked like but as they had them in red and they looked a bit different choose them. If that makes me a "bit of a div" to not consider every possible permutation then so be it. Some people don't analyse to the eighth degree. 
If my wheels fall apart after a month or make me slower I'll let you know but until then I'm thrilled with my choice. I hope the OP is too when or if he buys some.


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## gbb (23 May 2015)

Who gives a toss if it makes any difference to your times, speed, etc etc...if you want new wheels...buy em and enjoy em.

Equally, you can apply common sense to it all and not buy a better bike, wheels, carbon components etc etc.
Early in my ever growing love of roadbikes, I started with a cro-mo Raleigh Chimera, gazillion spoked wheels, pig iron components...and I could ride like the wind on it (seriously). Ive always been quite fastidious about mileage and times, average speed etc...and what I can say is as ive upgraded bikes from cro mo to ally, to carbon fibre, mildly upgraded wheelsets etc etc...my average times over a given distance hardly budged an inch...but the ride quality is immensely better.

Dont apply too much thought to it all...if you want it, buy it.

A final point...new wheels arent always faster then old ones.
Stock wheels on my old Bianchi, well run in, well maintained, ran like a goodun. I wanted new wheels...just because. I brought Fulcrum 5s, lovely looking compared to my old wheels, but the first ride on them, I knew they were significantly slower, they just didn't spin. This was (IMO) because the bearings were new and needed some miles to free up, then they'd be ok. I was too impatient, brought some low friction bearings, fitted them, immensly better, instantly.
Bear in mind, Fulcrum 5s are not high end wheels, a bit better than budget ones...I like them and proved they're strong, but thats another story.


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## Yellow Saddle (23 May 2015)

gbb said:


> Who gives a toss if it makes any difference to your times, speed, etc etc...if you want new wheels...buy em and enjoy em.
> 
> 
> A final point...new wheels arent always faster then old ones.
> ...



What do you mean by "they just didn't spin"?


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## gbb (23 May 2015)

Yellow Saddle said:


> What do you mean by "they just didn't spin"?


Section of slight downhill I used to commute every day, you know roughly how far you should be able to freewheel...first timeon the Fulcrums I just slowed too quickly, I thought my brakes were binding it was so noticeable.
Home, upturn the bike, spin wheels, they rotated a few times, then stopped quite quickly. Put my old wheels in, hugely different, they spun and spun. Of course its not scientific, but about the same amount of force applied resulted in two hugely different results.
Still got the Fulcrums and very happy with them....
Its possible they were defective or poorly fitted (the original bearings).or it may be normal to be a bit tight at first.


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## gbb (23 May 2015)

Anyway (tongue in cheek mode)..what you want is 45 year old hubs. As a kid about 12, I remember like yesterday overhauling hubs and most importantly, lubing with oil not grease, applied through the flip up lid in the hub. Those wheels used to spin....and spin....and spin for what seemed like eons.


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## Yellow Saddle (23 May 2015)

gbb said:


> Section of slight downhill I used to commute every day, you know roughly how far you should be able to freewheel...first timeon the Fulcrums I just slowed too quickly, I thought my brakes were binding it was so noticeable.
> Home, upturn the bike, spin wheels, they rotated a few times, then stopped quite quickly. Put my old wheels in, hugely different, they spun and spun. Of course its not scientific, but about the same amount of force applied resulted in two hugely different results.
> Still got the Fulcrums and very happy with them....
> Its possible they were defective or poorly fitted (the original bearings).or it may be normal to be a bit tight at first.


OK, I see how you made your assumption. The fact that the "tight" wheel spun a few times before stopping means that it worked perfectly. The fact that the other one spun a bit more, means that the bearing was worn a bit more (given that all things are equal on the two wheels).

The difference in resistance is miniscule and cannot be detected by how far you can freewheel on the one set vs the other. The rolling resistance difference between the two bearings is measured in grams and I'm talking 5 or so grams. The resistance from tyre rolling resistance and airflow when freewheeling is a few hundred times more and thus completely obscures other things, particularly as two test runs outside a lab cannot be equalized.

The right name for most bearings in wheels is deep groove cartridge bearings. The inner round ring is called the inner race and the outer round ring, the outer race. The two facing sides on the races have a shallow groove called, believe it or not, a deep groove, hence the name deep groove bearings. The ball runs in the groove. The ball does not spin at the same speed as the turning race because of the difference in circumference between the two. The ball spins at the average speed of the two races and hence slides a lot - 50% of it's distance, to be exact. For the sliding to not destroy the ball and races, the ball has to glide over a tenacious layer of grease.

Now, Imagine a bowling alley and visualize the gutter on the side full of water. You launch the ball and it hits the gutter, rolling down the gutter. In front of the ball is a wake in the form of a bulge that runs ahead of the ball. At the back of the ball is a rooster tail of water shooting up and a bit of a wake that follows the ball. This requires energy and it gets it from the kinetic energy in the ball and slows the ball down. To the sides of the ball rolling down the gutter is water that overshoots the gutter and goes down the alley.

Back to the bearing. The same happens there. The ball has to push the grease out of its way and that requires energy that is expressed as rolling resistance. However, unlike the wasteful gutter in the bowling alley, the grease is saved. This is done by two splash-guards on the side of the groove, called bearing seals. Their job is to push grease back into the groove and of course to prevent contamination from outside. They are made of rubber and like all rubber, don't like being rubbed dry on metal surfaces. They will slide a bit better with some lubrication and last longer. They are thus designed in such a way that they leak a teensy bit. This allows some grease to escape under the lip of the seal and thus lubricate the seal. Unfortunately once the grease has escaped, it is gone. The grease inside a cartridge bearing is thus a consumable and the bearing's life is determined by the quantity of grease in there.

The newer the bearing, the more grease still in there and the greater the bearing's rolling resistance. I say "great" but that is within the parameters of extremely little. As the bearing rolls and the grease is churned, it warms up and becomes softer and the bearing rolls easier.

IN summary, your observation was correct. New bearings will spin down a bit quicker. However, your assumption was too ambitious. The effect is so small that it is only noticeable on a an upside-down bike experiencing no air drag or tyre drag.

You just cannot make judgements on a wheel based on how quickly it spins down. If you spin it and it doesn't come to an immediate stop, the bearings will make no difference to the ride.

At the end of a bearing's life, it will spin the fastest and some people interpret that as a better bearing than the one about to replace it. It isn't, it is at the end of its useful life in spite of its smoothness.


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## gbb (23 May 2015)

Yellow Saddle said:


> OK, I see how you made your assumption. The fact that the "tight" wheel spun a few times before stopping means that it worked perfectly. The fact that the other one spun a bit more, means that the bearing was worn a bit more (given that all things are equal on the two wheels).
> 
> The difference in resistance is miniscule and cannot be detected by how far you can freewheel on the one set vs the other. The rolling resistance difference between the two bearings is measured in grams and I'm talking 5 or so grams. The resistance from tyre rolling resistance and airflow when freewheel is a few hundred times more and thus completely obscures other things, particularly as two test runs outside a lab cannot be equalized.
> 
> ...


I got bored after the first line.


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## gbb (23 May 2015)

No real offence intended yellow, but you do tend to bludgeon a subject to death. You doubtless are a good and experienced bike mechanic, but bugger, you do come across poorly ((In my , as respectfully as possible, humble opinion)


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## raleighnut (23 May 2015)

gbb said:


> Anyway (tongue in cheek mode)..what you want is 45 year old hubs. As a kid about 12, I remember like yesterday overhauling hubs and most importantly, lubing with oil not grease, applied through the flip up lid in the hub. Those wheels used to spin....and spin....and spin for what seemed like eons.


What you have said is completely true, 40 years ago the materials used and manufacturing tolerances were far superior to anything cobbled together in the far east these days. I've got a few hubs from the late 70s early 80s that have virtually no wear on them (and no seals either) BUT, these hubs need to be maintained regularly (and we ain't talking just a quick squirt of oil) they need stripping down, washing out with a degreaser and wiping out with a clean cloth before being re-assembled in a grit free environment (there is no need to go over the top though, rebuilding them on a sheet of newspaper with clean hands is more than good enough)
Thing is very few people these days are prepared to put the effort in to keep stuff in tip-top order, they would sooner buy new and say "well they were worn out" but if the correct maintenance had been done when it was needed (before a problem occurred) everything would be fine.
Same thing goes for bottom brackets and headraces, service them BEFORE a problem occurs and they will last for years.
A good test for a rebuilt wheel hub is that when it is spun it should continue to rotate for 5-10 minutes until the weight of the tyre valve stops it going 'over the top' and then it should 'pendulum' backwards and forwards several times before eventually stopping with the valve at the bottom. (don't try this with hubs with 'seals' on though)


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## Milkfloat (24 May 2015)

I am not sure I can believe that engineering tolerances were better 40 years ago. Taking the car industry as an example, engineering tolerances think of the difference in the engine between an Austin Princess and something like a Ford Focus. It is night and day. I appreciate that the Bike industry is not the Car industry, but a lot of the tooling and engineering has trickled down.


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## Yellow Saddle (24 May 2015)

Milkfloat said:


> I am not sure I can believe that engineering tolerances were better 40 years ago. Taking the car industry as an example, engineering tolerances think of the difference in the engine between an Austin Princess and something like a Ford Focus. It is night and day. I appreciate that the Bike industry is not the Car industry, but a lot of the tooling and engineering has trickled down.


If you go to a vintage car event you'll find people walking around kicking tyres and knocking on the cars saying, "they don't make them like they used to." They are right of course. Nowadays they make them better. Better, lighter, more economical, quieter, more durable, more accurate, safer, cheaper and practical.


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## Spoked Wheels (24 May 2015)

gbb said:


> No real offence intended yellow, but you do tend to bludgeon a subject to death. You doubtless are a good and experienced bike mechanic, but bugger, you do come across poorly ((In my , as respectfully as possible, humble opinion)



Mmmm I think I've read this before or I probably thought that too myself 

I saw a few posts that referred to a comment by YS so the curiosity got the better of me 

I think a reply like the following would have persuaded YS the OP just wants new wheels.
"
OK.
OP, you need some new wheels. Why do you need new wheels and what is wrong with the wheels you currently have?

You ask about size and materials. Use the size you currently have on there and as for materials, what do you currently have on there and how does that material not satisfy your needs?"

Why do I need new wheels? Mmm I just fancy new wheels.

What is wrong with my current wheels? Mmm nothing is wrong with them, I'm just bored of them.

I think they are made of alluminion. I don't think I'm unsatisfied but I don't know of any other materials so maybe I'm missing out, that's why I'm asking for help.


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## Cyclist33 (24 May 2015)

gbb said:


> No real offence intended yellow, but you do tend to bludgeon a subject to death. You doubtless are a good and experienced bike mechanic, but bugger, you do come across poorly ((In my , as respectfully as possible, humble opinion)



I completely disagree with you on that. I believe you just feel hard done to because he showed plainly that you were talking utter bollocks.


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## Citius (24 May 2015)

Cyclist33 said:


> I completely disagree with you on that. I believe you just feel hard done to because he showed plainly that you were talking utter bollocks.



This ^^^ 

I said something similar yesterday, but it got deleted


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## gbb (24 May 2015)

Milkfloat said:


> I am not sure I can believe that engineering tolerances were better 40 years ago. Taking the car industry as an example, engineering tolerances think of the difference in the engine between an Austin Princess and something like a Ford Focus. It is night and day. I appreciate that the Bike industry is not the Car industry, but a lot of the tooling and engineering has trickled down.


Neither do i, thats why i said 'Tongue in cheek' ...but they really did spin well.

*Yellow, my apologies for the wording of my previous*. You really are very knowledgeable, but again, we'll have to disagree.
If you give me a choice of wheels that spin or ones that are 'sluggish', i'll take the ones that spin time after time after time. You MAY be correct, free spinning wheels MAY indicate they are indeed worn....if thats the case, my wheels have been worn since i fitted new bearings and improved their ability to spin freely. This is what i want from my wheels, the ability to spin freely.
Telling me that makes no difference is unimportant to me...and IMHO, wrong. Wheels that freewheel to a stop quite quickly , or wheels that keep going...and keep going. Thats what i want, thats what i have, nothing you can say will change my opinion on that.
Please...its supposed to be an informal forum, i overstepped the mark a bit, but your manner of questioning peoples opinions and experiences is borderline insulting.

We've been here before..i will try to change my irritation to your manner, perhaps you'll modify the way you question peoples real experiences.


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## gbb (24 May 2015)

Cyclist33 said:


> I completely disagree with you on that. I believe you just feel hard done to because he showed plainly that you were talking utter bollocks.


Thats genuinely your perogative . If we all thought and did the same, it'd be boring. My post above elaborates my requirements in very simple terms, MY requirements. I'm simply passing an alternative view (and one that some may well agree with) regarding free spinning wheels (which i stick by, however many people think its bollicks...which with a quick read back is only two...so not a very overwhelming opposing opinion to mine). 
My apology to YS clearly states exactly why i took umbrage, not the opposing view on spinning wheels but for the manner he questioned my opinion.

Enough said....IMO.


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## Citius (24 May 2015)

gbb said:


> Thats genuinely your perogative . If we all thought and did the same, it'd be boring. My post above elaborates my requirements in very simple terms, MY requirements. I'm simply passing an alternative view (and one that some may well agree with) regarding free spinning wheels (which i stick by, however many people think its bollicks...which with a quick read back is only two...so not a very overwhelming opposing opinion to mine).
> My apology to YS clearly states exactly why i took umbrage, not the opposing view on spinning wheels but for the manner he questioned my opinion.
> 
> Enough said....IMO.



So you have accepted that YS is correct, while at the same time stating that you will continue to ignore his advice. Not sure we're any further forward, tbh.


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## gbb (24 May 2015)

Citius said:


> So you have accepted that YS is correct, while at the same time stating that you will continue to ignore his advice. Not sure we're any further forward, tbh.


No, certainly don't accept he's correct, He may be, he may not. I prefer to act on experience...and not blindly accept what someone says. I'll listen, but still use my own intuition and experience....one thats served me pretty well for gawld knows how many years...and my experience is different.
A good motto in life is...just because someone says its so, doesnt mean it is. That applies to me as well.


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## Justinslow (24 May 2015)

Cyclist33 said:


> I completely disagree with you on that. I believe you just feel hard done to because he showed plainly that you were talking utter bollocks.


The majority win in this case I think it's not just gbb that said it, countless others have done aswell including myself.


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## Citius (24 May 2015)

Justinslow said:


> The majority win in this case I think it's not just gbb that said it, countless others have done aswell including myself.



100 anecdotes do not defeat a scientific reality.


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## gbb (24 May 2015)

Citius said:


> 100 anecdotes do not defeat a scientific reality.


Evidence please, not just word of mouth.


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## Citius (24 May 2015)

gbb said:


> Evidence please, not just word of mouth.



You had a very thorough and detailed explanation on a previous page, which you said you couldn't be bothered to read. With that kind of attitude, what is the point of engaging with you?


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## Justinslow (24 May 2015)

Citius said:


> 100 anecdotes do not defeat a scientific reality.


It's a scientific reality that you and yellow saddle have very poor communication skills, it's not about your knowledge.


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## Citius (24 May 2015)

Justinslow said:


> It's a scientific reality that you and yellow saddle have very poor communication skills, it's not about your knowledge.



I can't speak for YS, but I'm guessing we probably both have a relatively low tolerance of arrogance, if that's what you mean.


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## gbb (24 May 2015)

Citius said:


> You had a very thorough and detailed explanation on a previous page, which you said you couldn't be bothered to read. With that kind of attitude, what is the point of engaging with you?


Basic mistake...its not evidence, its someones opinion, just the same as mine. As we all know, EVERYONE is an expert about everything in forums. 
Its really quite simple, choose to have free running wheels or sluggish ones ? I choose free running ones.
Let it go...its a discussion not the Spanish Inquisition. Opinions differ, that's natural and healthy to debate.


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## Citius (24 May 2015)

gbb said:


> Basic mistake...its not evidence, its someones opinion, just the same as mine. As we all know, EVERYONE is an expert about everything in forums.
> Its really quite simple, choose to have free running wheels or sluggish ones ? I choose free running ones.
> Let it go...its a discussion not the Spanish Inquisition. Opinions differ, that's natural and healthy to debate.



Of course opinions differ - but refusing to read someone's considered reply as to why your post is incorrect cannot be seen as anything other than arrogance. How exactly does refusing to entertain an alternative view contribute to a 'healthy debate'..?


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## gbb (24 May 2015)

Oh FFS , chill out man.
Mods, can we close this, some are not prepared tp accept alternative views and I see that as baiting. 
Id love to come back Citius, but its not worth it, its pathetic TBH.


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## Citius (24 May 2015)

gbb said:


> Oh FFS , chill out man.
> Mods, can we close this, *some are not prepared tp accept alternative views* and I see that as baiting.
> Id love to come back Citius, but its not worth it, its pathetic TBH.



The irony is that you are guilty of the very things you are accusing others of doing. That's hypocrisy.


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## gbb (24 May 2015)

SatNavSaysStraightOn said:


> *Mod Note:*
> If this thread continues as it was, there will be thread bans issued.
> Keep it polite and do not continue with the name calling, bickering and the likes.



Do us all a favour Satnav, ban me if it helps


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## Okeydokey (24 May 2015)

I like the idea of a coaster rear wheel, saves on a brake cable and more importantly weight. Then I would suggest one of them front wheels with a dynamo in the hub, carbon footprint and all that. Infact when it gets dark at night you can hook it up to a trainer thingy and carry on reading. That's what I do anyway, makes perfect sense to me.


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## SatNavSaysStraightOn (25 May 2015)

*Mod Note: *I think given that the poor OP has long since given up on this thread, and I don't blame them, that I am going to close the thread. It is going nowhere and round in circles. It currently contains sufficient information for someone to read and make up their own mind about. If you object, use the report button and explain why you think it should remain open and exactly how it is going to remain civil and I'll reconsider the thread closure.


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