# ROSPA HGV/Cyclist Safety Video



## Origamist (11 Jun 2009)

Good(ish) awareness vid:

http://www.rospa.com/roadsafety/resources/videos/cycling.html


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## MartinC (11 Jun 2009)

Couldn't view it with the sound on at work - I'll take a look when I get home.

I lost all respect for RoSPA recently when I read the helmet plug on their website - I was genuinely surprised at how deliberately dishonest their presentation was.


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## Origamist (11 Jun 2009)

I was pleased to see it was sponsored by Cemex, mentioned ASLs and filtering (although they could have made more of this) and was presented in a clear/concise way. The "stay back, stay safe" slogan is simple and gets the message across. 

No mention of railings though - this should have been emphasised as an additional hazard. It might also have been useful to warn cyclists against the "follow my leader" filtering phenomenon that happens at junctions. 

I'd also question the need for the cyclist to get so close to kerb and HGV when waiting at the lights. He may be able to see you in his mirrors if he looks, but I'd rather be further back and in the centre of the lane (ideally when he's hopefully clocked me) when waiting at the lights as another left turning vehicle will often pull along side, hemming you in. I guess an advantage of being left/closer is that it might inhibit other cyclists from going up the inside though...

Hi Viz, lights and reflectors all get a mention or are prominent, but not helmets...


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## SlowCoach (11 Jun 2009)

Origamist said:


> I'd also question the need for the cyclist to get so close to kerb and HGV when waiting at the lights. He may be able to see you in his mirrors if he looks, but I'd rather be further back and in the centre of the lane (ideally when he's hopefully clocked me) when pulling away from the lights as another left turning vehicle will often pull along side, hemming you in.



I concur. The cyclist's positioning next to the kerb was bad (I used to stop there so I could be seen, but kept having other HGVs pull alongside and put me back in the death zone). Much better to take the centre of the lane, but leave some distance but watch for his reversing lights.


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## summerdays (11 Jun 2009)

Next week at the council bike breakfast apparently there is going to be a lorry for us to be able to get into the cab and see what they can actually see from the driving seat. I'm hoping I get the chance to do that.

I think they should have also mentioned moving forward if in front of a lorry - to make sure you are visible from the cab.

I recently found out from one of the bin men that their lorries have camera's at the back so that they can see behind (makes sense given that there are often bin men at the back of the bin lorry). But it was interesting to know that they knew I was there even when I couldn't see their mirror's (I was still well back from the lorry - but in primary position to prevent a car from overtaking me).


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## Origamist (12 Jun 2009)

summerdays said:


> Next week at the council bike breakfast apparently there is going to be a lorry for us to be able to get into the cab and see what they can actually see from the driving seat. I'm hoping I get the chance to do that.
> 
> I think they should have also mentioned moving forward if in front of a lorry - to make sure you are visible from the cab.



HGV awareness days are worthwhile, but I'd ask what mirrors are fitted to the cab as it makes a difference to what can be seen.

As regards moving in front of the HGV/getting their attention, if the vehicle comes along side you - definitely. But if you are in the centre of the lane as is recommended, you should be able to stop them coming along side (he will have seen you) - still worth reminding the driver you're there with eye contact/mad waving etc. 

Two-lanes are more problematic - and very occasionally I have jumped lights in these situations.

The thrust of the video is about the dangers of undertaking HGVs at junctions, but I'd agree that it could have looked at a few related issues and provided additional guidance.


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## Bokonon (12 Jun 2009)

Origamist said:


> The thrust of the video is about the dangers of undertaking HGVs at junctions, but I'd agree that it could have looked at a few related issues and provided additional guidance.



I think on the whole it is a good video, and contains good guidance that has been a long time coming. The next challenge is to get the video viewed by the people who most need to see it!

There are a whole lot of issues around cyclists at lights/junctions, of which undertaking large vehicles is one of the most dangerous. Tackling this is a very good first step to improving cyclists' behaviour at junctions. Going into more depth would, at this stage, have been inappropriate - key points need to be fed in small chunks and "stay back, stay safe" does this quite well.


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## summerdays (12 Jun 2009)

Origamist said:


> HGV awareness days are worthwhile, but I'd ask what mirrors are fitted to the cab as it makes a difference to what can be seen.


What would you be hoping the answer would be to what mirrors were fitted?



Origamist said:


> As regards moving in front of the HGV/getting their attention, if the vehicle comes along side you - definitely. But if you are in the centre of the lane as is recommended, you should be able to stop them coming along side (he will have seen you) - still worth reminding the driver you're there with eye contact/mad waving etc.
> 
> Two-lanes are more problematic - and very occasionally I have jumped lights in these situation.
> 
> The thrust of the video is about the dangers of undertaking HGVs at junctions, but I'd agree that it could have looked at a few related issues and provided additional guidance.



I meant in Primary in front of them - I still feel that when they are up in their cab, if I am immediately in front of them I feel a little invisible unsure if they have seen me - where as pulling forward a little (if necessary over the line), I am more clearly visible. Though from stationary I should always be able to beat a lorry I think.


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## stoatsngroats (12 Jun 2009)

summerdays said:


> I think they should have also mentioned moving forward if in front of a lorry - to make sure you are visible from the cab.



Hopefully, you'll get the chance to sit in a lorry cab, if you do, see what forward view you get too.....sometimes, if its a 3 step cab, you'd need to be at least 6-8 feet in front to be seen by the lorry driver, any closer, and you still may not be seen!

My choice as a cyclist and an HGV driver, is to sit behind, in primary, where possible, and far enough beck to get out of the way...


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## very-near (12 Jun 2009)

MartinC said:


> Couldn't view it with the sound on at work - I'll take a look when I get home.
> 
> I lost all respect for RoSPA recently when I read the helmet plug on their website - I was genuinely surprised at how deliberately dishonest their presentation was.




Q - would or have you put a cycle hat on your children when they were learning to ride a cycle ?


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## summerdays (12 Jun 2009)

stoatsngroats said:


> Hopefully, you'll get the chance to sit in a lorry cab, if you do, see what forward view you get too.....sometimes, if its a 3 step cab, you'd need to be at least 6-8 feet in front to be seen by the lorry driver, any closer, and you still may not be seen!
> 
> My choice as a cyclist and an HGV driver, is to sit behind, in primary, where possible, and far enough beck to get out of the way...



That's what I mean - I want to be that distance in front. But I don't go up the side to get there and I'm happy to sit a bit behind a lorry as long as it doesn't have its reversing lights on and that they are working! I'm hoping there isn't too big a queue to sit in the cab as I won't have ages to stop at the breakfast.


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## Origamist (12 Jun 2009)

Bokonon said:


> I think on the whole it is a good video, and contains good guidance that has been a long time coming. The next challenge is to get the video viewed by the people who most need to see it!



There have been a couple of vids in the past, but this is a step forward for sure. The second point is well made as reaching a wider audience will not be easy. Start disseminating, Bokonon!



Bokonon said:


> There are a whole lot of issues around cyclists at lights/junctions, of which undertaking large vehicles is one of the most dangerous. Tackling this is a very good first step to improving cyclists' behaviour at junctions. Going into more depth would, at this stage, have been inappropriate - key points need to be fed in small chunks and "stay back, stay safe" does this quite well.



The problem is I'm doubtful a part _deux _will follow soon - ancillary issues will therefore not be addressed. That said, I'm a firm believer in KISS and the film gets its key message across successfully, IMO.


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## Rhythm Thief (12 Jun 2009)

You can sit in my cab any day Summerdays! Mine has excellent visibility to the front and mirrors everywhere, so it's probably not representative of most trucks out there.


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## Origamist (12 Jun 2009)

summerdays said:


> What would you be hoping the answer would be to what mirrors were fitted?.



Class VI safety mirrors. These mirrors give a view of the road directly in front of the driver’s cab. 




summerdays said:


> I meant in Primary in front of them - I still feel that when they are up in their cab, if I am immediately in front of them I feel a little invisible unsure if they have seen me - where as pulling forward a little (if necessary over the line), I am more clearly visible. Though from stationary I should always be able to beat a lorry I think.



I'm all for reminding the driver (with some histrionics) that I have not teleported myself to another postcode when he pulls up behind me...!


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## MartinC (12 Jun 2009)

very-near said:


> Q - would or have you put a cycle hat on your children when they were learning to ride a cycle ?



All right, I give in. I can't see any logical connection between my post and your question. 

My post was indirectly related to the OP - it was an explanation of my suspension of judgement about the RoSPA video (which I think is worthwhile now that I've seen it).

Your post is a non sequitur - don't spoil Origamist's thread. Start another if you really want to explain your abstruse point.


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## summerdays (12 Jun 2009)

I think there should be a very short cartoon version of this video - even more simplified that could be shown in schools (as part of road safety PSHE stuff) or cinemas to reach a wider audience. But it would need to be shorter and funkier to catch the audience in a cinema.


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## Origamist (12 Jun 2009)

summerdays said:


> I think there should be a very short cartoon version of this video - even more simplified that could be shown in schools (as part of road safety PSHE stuff) or cinemas to reach a wider audience. But it would need to be shorter and funkier to catch the audience in a cinema.



I agree, a condensed version would be good. What's more, in it's current form, it's not really viral campaigning material...Good fora fodder, but not likely to reach a wider constituency.


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## very-near (12 Jun 2009)

MartinC said:


> All right, I give in. I can't see any logical connection between my post and your question.
> 
> My post was indirectly related to the OP - it was an explanation of my suspension of judgement about the RoSPA video (which I think is worthwhile now that I've seen it).
> 
> Your post is a non sequitur - don't spoil Origamist's thread. Start another if you really want to explain your abstruse point.



You have repeatedly asserted your 'pro choice' stance. You have effectively rubbished any viewpoint which ROSPA give because you disagree with their standpoint on protective headgear.

I can start another thread and call you out on it directly, but a simple yes or no here would suffice for this thread, and that will be that

I have no desire to hijack Origamists thread (cos he's bigger than me innit  )


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## charlie_lcc (1 Jul 2009)

I've just looked a the video again, it is better than the first edit which I saw several years ago but still gives an unrealistic view of the problem. The sketch road layout shows the lorry starting from a position on the right and moving more to the right before turning left - that is what usually happens. The filmed video shows the lorry starting from the left with a very narrow gap and it uses an open flared junction layout, there are also shots of the cyclist turning left and the lorry having space to overtake on the corner - this is really crap. 

Most of the crashes happen on tighter corners where the lorry has to start from about 2-3 metres away from the left curb. That leaves a very wide gap which most cyclists see as inviting and safe. Sometimes they see the driver is indicating left but just don't believe it as the lorry is so far away to the right. In this position it is often very difficult for the driver to see the cyclist in any mirror. When cyclist and lorry move forward the driver begins to turn quite sharply, cutting across the cyclist's path. Most often the cyclist is planning to go straight ahead and is hit by the very front corner of the lorry, at or in front of the first axle. Not as shown in the video.

The ROSPA video is misleading in suggesting the danger comes from squeezing into a narrow space, at most junctions a lorry that close to the curb could not turn the corner (it's still crazy to go there). 

The Met Police have just made a series of presentations showing where the cyclist goes and what the driver can see in the mirrors, I'm hoping they will put them on YouTube for everyone to see.

-
charlie


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## Origamist (1 Jul 2009)

Leading on from what Charlie said, it would have been good to have seen a range of vehicles: rigid tippers, artics, cement lorries, etc and their repsective swept paths at a busy, urban junction.


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## wafflycat (14 Jul 2009)

On the whole, 9.5/10 for the effort. But it does say that cyclists should stay well away from the kerb (yes) and then shows them all cycling far too close into the kerb even in the non-HGV conflict bits of the vid.


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## dellzeqq (15 Jul 2009)

One of the problems with this kind of video is that it is made by people who make videos. If you see what I mean. Very few are made by people who know their subject. The director has a certain preconception, and the actors take directions. Directors are notoriously thick, (but not quite as thick as producers) and don't listen.

Sometimes it works to the advantage of the video. The TfL get on your bike videos are really lovely to watch.


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## Origamist (18 Oct 2010)

Latest ROSPA "Cyclists and Lorries" Video:

http://www.rospa.com/roadsafety/resources/videos/cyclists-and-lorries.aspx


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## davefb (18 Oct 2010)

eek scary music!!

bit twee, but pretty sensible.. have to honest, I can't understand anyone feeding through on a wagon like that ... just seems utterly wrong...


also funny at 4:30 when saying 'some junctions have advanced stop lanes'.... yes with renault people carriers in them!


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## summerdays (18 Oct 2010)

Again its a bit dry and dull (and long). And at about 4.50 shows the lorry overtaking a cyclist whilst indicating that its about to turn left!


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## gaz (18 Oct 2010)

summerdays said:


> Again its a bit dry and dull (and long). And at about 4.50 shows the lorry overtaking a cyclist whilst indicating that its about to turn left!



At every point the cement mixer overtook the cyclist it was far too close.


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## classic33 (22 Oct 2010)

Minor points.
There is no indication that the driver was wearing a seat belt at anytime & for me the driver passes to close for my liking.
Also indicates that he is going to overtake a right turning vehicle.


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## magnatom (22 Oct 2010)

Who is going to watch that? Seriously? 

It might have reasonable information within it, but it is too long and boring to have any impact. ROSPA need to get with the times.


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