# Armstrong and the TdF



## rich p (18 Jun 2010)

Contador has shown some signs of fallibility with Brajkovic and others beating him up the hills.
Wiggins - an unknown quantity
Basso - knackered after the Giro
Evans - perpetual second placer
Menchov - heaven knows
Andy Schleck - got outclimbed and outpaced by LA et al yesterday
Frank Schleck - not strong enough overall

...opening up the possibility of Armstrong winning an eighth title?

Waddya think?


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## gb155 (18 Jun 2010)

rich p said:


> Contador has shown some signs of fallibility with Brajkovic and others beating him up the hills.
> Wiggins - an unknown quantity
> Basso - knackered after the Giro
> Evans - perpetual second placer
> ...




Lets hope so eh !!!!

Contador's head seems to have gone.

Wiggins while he did great last year, I cant help thinking there are still many ??'s over him

The Schleck brothers are great but seem way outta form.

Agreed re - Evans


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## Stephen-D (18 Jun 2010)

But then, and forgive my ignorance and inexperiance, what has Lance Armstrong done/won this year??


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## raindog (18 Jun 2010)

Stephen-D said:


> But then, and forgive my ignorance and inexperiance, what has Lance Armstrong done/won this year??


He hasn't won anything, but that was always his approach in the past too, when working his way towards the Tour.

He's looking pretty good actually, but I still think Berto will take it. (or at least I bloody hope he does )


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## PaulB (18 Jun 2010)

My money (and hopes) are on Bradley Wiggins. Daft name like, but good rider on the verge of greatness.


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## montage (18 Jun 2010)

I'd still put my money on Contador.
That said, Armstrong and Contador will be watching each other so closely that this could allow a few sizeable breaks. Are they doing the stage with no radios again? If so then that is the day for wiggins to get a few minutes - unless it is a flatty.

I don't think Wiggins will be given any breathing room, whereas Andy might be allowed to go on some of the climbs as the others know they can make up time on the time trials. Infact, although saxo bank doesn't have as strong teams as radioshack, I would say Andy possibly has a slight tactical tailwind, aslong as he doesn't end up waiting for Frank


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## aJohnson (18 Jun 2010)

The person I want to win is Andy Schleck. I cannot see Armstrong winning it though.


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## Skip Madness (18 Jun 2010)

Still Contador all the way for me. I didn't think he was looking fallible at all in the Dauphiné - just looking like someone who's not peaking yet, which he shouldn't be. He'll arrive at the Tour in better form and ride into better condition still during the first week for the mountain stages.

Quite frankly, no-one else is looking that impressive yet are they? Roman Kreuziger is just humming along quietly, though. The biggest threat to Bertie may come from the Liquigas trio.

Still a way to go for the Tour, but Andy Schleck isn't looking remotely decent at the moment.


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## Keith Oates (18 Jun 2010)

Contador is still the No.1 favorite IMO, I don't think Armstrong has much of a chance even for a podium and Wiggins will be an also ran!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Flying_Monkey (18 Jun 2010)

Contador, without a doubt. Armstrong will do all right though, again.


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## gavintc (18 Jun 2010)

Keith Oates said:


> Contador is still the No.1 favorite IMO, I don't think Armstrong has much of a chance even for a podium and Wiggins will be an also ran!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



I fear your predictions are probably accurate. I cannot see Wiggins getting a top ten finish and I think we will see Contador and the Schlek brothers in the top few. Armstrong will fight well during the first 10 days and then side backwards.


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## CharlieB (18 Jun 2010)

PaulB said:


> My money (and hopes) are on Bradley Wiggins. Daft name like, but good rider on the verge of greatness.


Wiggo has already achieved greatness, imho.


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## Noodley (18 Jun 2010)

If Armstrong makes it onto the podium I'll run naked through Paris.

Here's hoping, for the sake of all Parisiens and clean cyclists, that he bombs out....


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## PpPete (18 Jun 2010)

Well I wouldnt go quite that far....
But will admit I've a sneaking hope that Brajkovic ends up higher placed that LA


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## Crackle (18 Jun 2010)

Noodley said:


> Here's hoping, for the sake of all Parisiens and clean cyclists, that he bombs out....



Absolutely


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## Chuffy (18 Jun 2010)

Noodley said:


> If Armstrong makes it onto the podium I'll run naked through Paris.
> 
> Here's hoping, for the sake of all Parisiens and clean cyclists, that he bombs out....


...and I'll follow you, red rubber pants and all. 

No, LA is a busted flush for this year. See also Michael Schumacher. 

Wiggy will do well to get top ten, top five if he's lucky. Sorry...

Contador for the win, although I'll be crossing my fingers that Cuddles finally pulls it off.


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## rich p (18 Jun 2010)

I think Bertie will win it but top 3 for LA.

Bookies have 
AC 4/7
A Schleck 5/1
LA 9/1
20/1 bar 3

That makes Evans and Basso a decent each way punt.


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## just jim (18 Jun 2010)

Noodley said:


> If Armstrong makes it onto the podium I'll run naked through Paris.
> 
> Here's hoping, for the sake of all Parisiens and clean cyclists, that he bombs out....



If Armstrong gets to know about this he may well back off anyway, to prevent you from carrying out this terrible act. It's a win-win situation for him!


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## yello (18 Jun 2010)

I think I'm just going to watch this year; no predictions or favourites. To some stages anyway, I'll not be glued.

That said, my thoughts are; I can't see LA staying the distance in honesty. If he starts, he'll abandon at some stage. I think it's a bridge too far this year, I'm not sure he's prepared. Too much other stuff going on and his preparation isn't, I'm guessing, spot on. 

Love to see Evans do well but I fear it's going to be the same for him as before, left bereft of support to go alone.

Wiggins, he'll give it a go but I can't see a repeat. He has achieved greatness already.

Hard to see past Contador for top spot. He just knows what to do, when and can do it. Schlek younger will be in the frame; he's ticking away quietly there at the moment, the preparation's good methinks.

This year, I want to look for names I don't know. And there's a lot of them to be honest.


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## Panter (18 Jun 2010)

I'd love to see Lance win it, but I don't think he can.


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## raindog (18 Jun 2010)

porkypete said:


> But will admit I've a sneaking hope that Brajkovic ends up higher placed that LA


Will that be "allowed" though?


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## Dave Davenport (18 Jun 2010)

Berti for the win with Evans and Andy Schleck on the podium, Armstrong & Wiggo 4th, 5th or 6th.........possibly.


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## Chuffy (18 Jun 2010)

Panter said:


> I'd hate to see Lance win it, and I don't think he can.


Fixed!


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## John the Monkey (18 Jun 2010)

raindog said:


> Will that be "allowed" though?


You'd hope that he wouldn't pull apart another team with that "the road will decide" bollocks after last season though.


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## aberal (18 Jun 2010)

Armstrong won't win it. He's too old. BUT, God, I would love it if he did. Equally, I'd be devastated if the allegations of that piece of sh*t Floyd Landis turned out to be true. We need heroes in this world and Armstrong, for all his faults, deserves to be up there with the rest and best of them.


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## Kablinsky (18 Jun 2010)

Have to agree that even slightly off his best Berti looks good enough. Obviously I'd like to see Wiggins win and you have to admire Armstrong for the way he's got himself into shape still being competitive at his age.


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## Smokin Joe (18 Jun 2010)

aberal said:


> Armstrong won't win it. He's too old. BUT, God, I would love it if he did. Equally, I'd be devastated if the allegations of that piece of sh*t Floyd Landis turned out to be true. We need heroes in this world and Armstrong, for all his faults, deserves to be up there with the rest and best of them.


Prepare to be devastated. 

The circumstantial evidence is very strong and the federal investigation is humming along in the background, with threats of legal action against anyone responsible for leaking information, which is why it's all gone quiet.

Personally, I will be surprised if Armstrong doesn't pull out before the start.


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## Chuffy (18 Jun 2010)

Fanboy alert!


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## maurice (18 Jun 2010)

Watch out, the haters are mobilising again!

You can't even like Lance in a thread about his chances these days...


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## lukesdad (19 Jun 2010)

Saxobank s team is strong enough, its whether Andys head is, and, talking of heads will someone please tell him to stop turning it, and, admiring the view back down the hill when he s climbing.


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## Panter (19 Jun 2010)

Chuffy said:


> Fixed!



Shakes head sadly..

Actually I'd like to revise my first statement by saying that as the greatest cyclist the World has ever seen, he probably will win it


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## Crackle (19 Jun 2010)

I'll be quite happy if he gets a podium place. We can organise a CC trip to Paris then.


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## Keith Oates (19 Jun 2010)

Noodley in the Buff and Chuffy in red rubber pants, if that gets out the cycling fans would need to get in position a week before the event just to get a chance to see the bikes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## John the Monkey (19 Jun 2010)

aberal said:


> Armstrong won't win it. He's too old. BUT, God, I would love it if he did. Equally, I'd be devastated if the allegations of that piece of sh*t Floyd Landis turned out to be true. We need heroes in this world and Armstrong, for all his faults, deserves to be up there with the rest and best of them.


Yep, he was just able to beat all the other people who turned out to have been juiced to the gills.

They were all at it, let's face facts.


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## Chuffy (19 Jun 2010)

Panter said:


> Actually I'd like to revise my first statement by saying that as the greatest cyclist the World has ever seen, he probably will win it


No he isn't and and no he won't. Nothing to do with how I feel about him as a rider and human being, but it does go some way to demonstrating the fanboy perspective.


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## gb155 (20 Jun 2010)

aberal said:


> Armstrong won't win it. He's too old. BUT, God, I would love it if he did. Equally, I'd be devastated if the allegations of that piece of sh*t Floyd Landis turned out to be true. We need heroes in this world and Armstrong, for all his faults, deserves to be up there with the rest and best of them.



HERE HERE !!!!


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## Chuffy (20 Jun 2010)

WHERE? WHERE?


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## Panter (20 Jun 2010)

Chuffy said:


> No he isn't and and no he won't. Nothing to do with how I feel about him as a rider and human being, but it does go some way to demonstrating the fanboy perspective.



It's you that got me interested in him!

All I read from you was Lance this, Lance that... I'd never even heard of the bloke before!

Thank you though, you've given me a Hero


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## Chuffy (20 Jun 2010)

And you're welcome to him! In the meantime, shall I introduce you to my good friend Toto?


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## Blue (21 Jun 2010)

maurice said:


> *Watch out, the haters are mobilising again*!
> 
> You can't even like Lance in a thread about his chances these days...



The same folk rubbished the mans chances last year and he got a podium position. You have to bear in mind that opinions are just that.


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## addictfreak (21 Jun 2010)

I have always been a big fan of Lance Armstrong. I would be devasted to find out he was a drugs cheat, I know theres always been that speculation. But was'nt he the most tested athlete in history?


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## Smokin Joe (21 Jun 2010)

addictfreak said:


> I have always been a big fan of Lance Armstrong. I would be devasted to find out he was a drugs cheat, I know theres always been that speculation. But was'nt he the most tested athlete in history?


So he says, never seen any official figures to back that up though. Marion Jones never tested positive either, but ended up doing time after eventually admitting to the use of EPO.

The tests are beatable if you and your doctors are clever enough, and some of Armstrong's 1999 TdF samples were found to contain EPO when they were tested retrospectively using new methods.

Still, maybe the lab fiddled the tests and Lemond, the Andreus and Landis are all liars and Armstongs vicious treatment of people who speak out against doping is just a charming character trait.


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## yello (21 Jun 2010)

Oh now, Smokin Joe, Don't sit on the fence there. Tell us what you really think! 

But, yes, methinks on balance of probability that he did. Dunno about does but did. And, no, I have no proof. It's just an opinion. And not one of this forum or of the forum owner.

e&oe...


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## Chuffy (21 Jun 2010)

Pair of extra large pants for Mr Yello!


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## mangaman (22 Jun 2010)

I'm surprised he's going to be allowed to start.

After Operation Puerto, everyone even vaguegley linked were banned - on supposition only (some were subsequently found innocent), because of the supposed "sancitity" of the TDF. Some of those banned that year were entirely innocent but the TDF took the view - any potential tainting by Puerto meant non-starting.

Armstrong seems embroiled in an almost identical situation. Why can he race?

I'll give you a clue - double standards, more money / more lawyers


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## Noodley (23 Jun 2010)

Chuffy said:


> ...and I'll follow you, red rubber pants and all.
> 
> I'll be crossing my fingers that Cuddles finally pulls it off.



With you in red rubber pants I'm sure he'll pull something!


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## cedfromfrance (24 Jun 2010)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Contador, without a doubt. Armstrong will do all right though, again.



Having follow the Criterium du Dauphine 2 weeks ago, I would still put my money on Contador, he didn't come here to win it, but just get stronger. He's now practising around Madrid and will be as strong as ever in 2 weeks when they reach the Alps. I think Andy will still be the main threat and possibly Kreuziger. Lance won't reach the podium (I would like to though)


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## just jim (29 Jun 2010)

Lance's last tour. What next? Politics maybe?


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## John the Monkey (29 Jun 2010)

just jim said:


> Lance's last tour. What next? Politics maybe?


Directeur Sportif, then big cheese at the UCI. Possibly buying ASO along the way somewhere.


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## Chuffy (29 Jun 2010)

Love the Freudian slip there from Big Tex - "And yes, this will be final Tour de France. It's been a great ride. Looking forward to three great weeks,"
No Lance, no Tour. The end of cycling itself is surely close behind.


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## yello (29 Jun 2010)

Is he expecting some kind of party or something? Has it been renamed The Farewell Lance Tour. It really does speak volumes about the man's arrogance self belief doesn't it!


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## Blue (30 Jun 2010)

Putting such anti LA venom into opinions about the meaning of what was probably an innocent statement shows one thing very clearly.


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## Flying_Monkey (30 Jun 2010)

Blue said:


> Putting such anti LA venom into opinions about the meaning of what was probably an innocent statement shows one thing very clearly.



And assuming it must be an innocent statement shows another thing very clearly! 

(Seriously, of course you can over-interepret and we all add our biases eo things, but people's offhand comments can say a lot about them, especially when we already have a context - one of reasons why social psychology is so interesting - and I don't think even Lance's biggest fans would deny he was pretty arrogant and self-centred, would they?)


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## raindog (30 Jun 2010)

Whether one likes or dislikes Armstrong I think it can be safely understood that he meant _his _last TdeF and not _the _last TdeF.


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## yello (30 Jun 2010)

Indeed raindog, I'd agree with you.

I have made an assumption (I must admit) that people have read an article that I read recently. Believe me, I'm not just making my comments on the quoted remark. In that article, LA really does come across as believing he IS the tour, that it somehow owes him something. Without denying his achievements, the TdF is about way more than any one cyclist.

If I can remember where I read it (and it was probably online) then I'll post the link.


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## Chuffy (30 Jun 2010)

Haters 1 Fanboys 0 
It's shooting fish in a barrel season again!


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## John the Monkey (30 Jun 2010)

I do think his recent troubles have shown how reliant parts of the bike industry have become on him though (or how reliant they believe themselves to be on him, perhaps).


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## stavros (30 Jun 2010)

Alberto all the way way to Paris, partly 'cause he's not an unpleasant t**t like Armstrong but he's poetry to watch! NB no I'm not female.


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## montage (30 Jun 2010)

I've not followed Alberto much this year....but I've heard he has been off the mark. Lance, hate it or not, is in amazing condition - rumoured to nearly have hit the record time climbing the Col de la Madone only a couple of days ago whilst training. He also has what can be argued to be the strongest team there. I don't think the 9/1 odds the bookies are offering does him much justice!


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## lukesdad (30 Jun 2010)

I ll be interested to see how Saxobank play it. If they re on the front driving to the climbs as in previous years then the odds are the Shlecks ll be on form, and the old codgers at the shack can forget it! It ll play nicely into Berties hands,and Vino will add his twopence worth for old times sake.


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## zimzum42 (30 Jun 2010)

I'm tempted to say that in order to win at that level then one has to be as arrogant and self-centred as Lance - but then I remember the grace and dignity with which Indurain used to win, letting other riders take the mountain top finishes, never thinking cycling was bigger than him. Added to that winning other GTs and doing the hour record and so on.

Lance has done well, but there are so many other cyclists far greater than him


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## just jim (30 Jun 2010)

Chuffy said:


> Haters 1 Fanboys 0
> It's shooting fish in a barrel season again!



It isn't. Really it isn't.


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## maurice (30 Jun 2010)

Chuffy said:


> Love the Freudian slip there from Big Tex - "And yes, this will be final Tour de France. It's been a great ride. Looking forward to three great weeks,"
> No Lance, no Tour. The end of cycling itself is surely close behind.



Ah ha! We have a closet fan boy following Lance on twitter....

.. either that or someone's regretting his rubber pants promise and keenly following Lance's training progress


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## Chuffy (1 Jul 2010)

No, just the odd crumb of amusement that Cycling News throws out.

Doh, I meant Road.cc of course.


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## John the Monkey (1 Jul 2010)

montage said:


> I've not followed Alberto much this year....but I've heard he has been off the mark.


Hmm - he's doing pretty well if he's aiming to peak in the third week of the tour though. The key for Bert is the first week - if he gets through that ok, I reckon he's a shoo in.



> Lance, hate it or not, is in amazing condition - rumoured to nearly have hit the record time climbing the Col de la Madone only a couple of days ago whilst training. He also has what can be argued to be the strongest team there. I don't think the 9/1 odds the bookies are offering does him much justice!


Possibly. He's also had fewer racing days this year, and a crash that he wouldn't have been involved in at all in his glory years. In his favour, his team looks excellent, although the "there are no favourites" line he's thrown out makes me wonder if the in-fighting at Astana "the road will decide" is going to happen at the Shack as well.

Zim, your comment puts me in mind of Sastre's '08 win - another classy rider & winner, imo.


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## Chuffy (1 Jul 2010)

John the Monkey said:


> Hmm - he's doing pretty well if he's aiming to peak in the third week of the tour though. The key for Bert is the first week - if he gets through that ok, I reckon he's a shoo in.


No contest really, barring accidents or some random strangeness.



> In his favour, his team looks excellent, although the "there are no favourites" line he's thrown out makes me wonder if the in-fighting at Astana "the road will decide" is going to happen at the Shack as well.


I doubt it somehow. The riders that went from Astana to Shack are well trained hounds that will heel their master without question. Kloden has always been happy to play follow my leader and Bottle has been in the pocket of Bruyneel and Tex since forever. The only possible wildcard is that chap who won the Dauphine (can't recall his name exactly) if he finds himself riding well.


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## raindog (1 Jul 2010)

Brajkovic? As we said on the Dauphiné thread, it's doubtfull he'll be allowed to go for it. Going to be interesting to see how all this is going to pan out. Berto's DS has said he was only at 80% for the Dauphiné. 
Bring it on - two days to go


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## John the Monkey (1 Jul 2010)

Chuffy said:


> Kloden has always been happy to play follow my leader and Bottle has been in the pocket of Bruyneel and Tex since forever. The only possible wildcard is that chap who won the Dauphine (can't recall his name exactly) if he finds himself riding well.


Brajkovic?

I wonder. If Lance has a shaky first week & Levi/Kloden go well...Nah, you're right.


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## Chuffy (1 Jul 2010)

John the Monkey said:


> Brajkovic?


That's the chap.



> I wonder. If Lance has a shaky first week & Levi/Kloden go well...Nah, you're right.


Hater! 
Mind you, it could be interesting because if the Texan Vampire finally stays in his coffin next year The Shed will be needing new talent. Levi/Klodi are getting on (and frankly, they're not winners when it comes to Grand Tours) and this Brajkovic chap looks like he might be worth developing. They won't want to beat him _too_ hard if he pushes on a little. Hmmm...


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## Blue (3 Jul 2010)

Round 1 to LA!!


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## zimzum42 (3 Jul 2010)

The prologue does normally decide the overall winner...


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## Chuffy (3 Jul 2010)

zimzum42 said:


> The prologue does normally decide the overall winner...


Spartacus for the win! 

BTW - I did like the references to him having a big engine in the commentary. Not that PhilPhil would have meant anything untoward, of course.


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## zimzum42 (3 Jul 2010)

I would love it if he could somehow win the whole thing. He just needs to start riding like Big Mig!


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## yello (3 Jul 2010)

Blue said:


> Round 1 to LA!!



Spoken like a true fanboy! And here was me thinking the messiah was 4th.  

He did look good. That did surprise me. I don't think anyone will be quaking though. Like me, surprised but not quaking. There are many days to go and many many other contenders.


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## Chuffy (3 Jul 2010)

yello said:


> Spoken like a true fanboy! And here was me thinking the messiah was 4th.
> 
> He did look good. That did surprise me. I don't think anyone will be quaking though. Like me, surprised but not quaking. There are many days to go and many many other contenders.


No, he won, don't you understand? He's emulating Big Mig by generously letting, not one, but _three_ other riders take the podium ahead of him! What a guy.


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## zimzum42 (3 Jul 2010)

I was talking about Cancellara...


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## darkstar (3 Jul 2010)

Chuffy said:


> No, he won, don't you understand? He's emulating Big Mig by generously letting, not one, but _three_ other riders take the podium ahead of him! What a guy.


Alberto was even more generous then, these cyclists are just too kind...


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## yello (3 Jul 2010)

Well our Bradley must have a heart the size of a planet then. He has gifted riches to so many others


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## John the Monkey (3 Jul 2010)

Blue said:


> Round 1 to LA!!


Indeed, although if Bert is letting that shake him, he's no GC contender.

He'll be remembering leaving Lance in the dust on Arcalis, I daresay. 5 seconds down? Not a worry for him, imo. The Shack top the team classification at the moment though.


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## Chuffy (3 Jul 2010)

zimzum42 said:


> I was talking about Cancellara...


I know, but I couldn't resist.


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## raindog (3 Jul 2010)

zimzum42 said:


> I would love it if he could somehow win the whole thing. He just needs to start riding like Big Mig!


They asked Fab during last year's Tour if he could ever be a contender for overall, and he said maybe, but he'd have to lose a few kilos first.


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## zimzum42 (3 Jul 2010)

If he could just take the pain and grind it out in the mountains he might have a chance, but he always pussies out

Mig was huge, Fabs doesn't have to lose any weight, surely, just start climbing like a man


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## Blue (3 Jul 2010)

yello said:


> *Spoken like a true fanboy*! And here was me thinking the messiah was 4th.
> 
> He did look good. That did surprise me. I don't think anyone will be quaking though. Like me, surprised but not quaking. There are many days to go and many many other contenders.



Nah, just a bit of trolling - I love to see the LA haters get their knickers in a twist . However, I must admit that I'm not a LA hater and do have some admiration of the man as a cyclist; as distinct from a private individual.


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## Chuffy (3 Jul 2010)

zimzum42 said:


> If he could just take the pain and grind it out in the mountains he might have a chance, but he always pussies out
> 
> Mig was huge, *Fabs doesn't have to lose any weight, surely, just start climbing like a man*


Or take buckets of EPO...


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## kevin_cambs_uk (3 Jul 2010)

I don't think that Contador has the team that can give him the Tour. You can do well on your own but you can't win it on your own, I don't think they are strong enough to control the race if he gets the yellow jersey.

I think Armstrong will watch Contador and let him make the moves and I think he will stay with him, he looks up for a fight this year more than most, he looked mightily angry on the Prologue.

But I could be wrong, but the Schleks and Wiggins are out now, they will never make that time up as either Armstrong or Contador will be marking them all the time.


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## Chuffy (3 Jul 2010)

kevin_cambs_uk said:


> I don't think that Contador has the team that can give him the Tour. You can do well on your own but you can't win it on your own, I don't think they are strong enough to control the race if he gets the yellow jersey.


As opposed to last year when his own team stitched him up? No, he's ok, I don't think he's as reliant on his team as some other riders.



> But I could be wrong, but the Schleks and Wiggins are out now, they will never make that time up as either Armstrong or Contador will be marking them all the time.


The Schlecks don't TT and losing a few seconds in the Prologue won't bother them in the slightest. Wiggy is a different matter, he should have done better and those thirty seconds will come back to haunt him later I think.


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## zimzum42 (3 Jul 2010)

Armstrong is an amazing rider, but he's frickin old, if the youngsters go flying off up the road, I doubt he will be able to keep up. If they time it right, they should take big chunks of time out of him


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## Skip Madness (3 Jul 2010)

I don't buy this business that Astana are too weak at all. They are slightly deficient for the cobbled stage, but elsewhere they are pretty much as strong as anyone else. Hernández, Tiralongo, Navarro and Vinokourov are all excellent aides to have on the climbs and the other four aren't shabby climbers either, and on the flatter stuff Grivko, Iglinsky and Noval are all first-class. I mean, Wiggins would kill for support like that.


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## mangaman (4 Jul 2010)

Also remember Armstrong's luck.

The reason he won more TDFs than Hinauault/Merckcz was because he's never been injured or ill. It's unbelievable he's never had a cold or felt shoot and got a good kicking in a queen TT or mountain stage. He always is "immaculately prepared".

Of course he doesn't ride any other meaningful races, which must help - but I wouldn't write off his rivals just yet. Even he fell in the tour of California. One slip on the cobbles on Tuesday, for example, and he's toast and he's hardly a cobbled classics specialist - being I suspect too scared to fall off.

The prologue has never decided anything as far as I recall.


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## mr_hippo (4 Jul 2010)

Every sport needs its heroes; football needs its 'Roy of the Rovers' and athletics needs its 'Alf Tupper' - for those who have not heard of Alf, ask your Dad or even your Granddad!
And so it came to pass that after the '98 Festina Affair, cycling and the TdF needed a hero. 
"After Festina dropped us in it last year. we need a patsy, fall-guy, hero but who?"
"Not only a 'hero' but one with a story behind him."
"What about that brash American, four TdFs, only finish - 36th, had cancer and survived and is now riding again?"
"I know who you mean but how can we make it happen? I hope that you are not suggesting what I think you are!"
"We will make him the most tested cyclist ever but we will also have a man on the inside!"
"Brilliant but what if he says no?"
"He's an American, do they ever say no to publicity, fame and fortune?" 
n.b. Any resemblance to any person, living or dead, is purely coincidental.


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## mangaman (4 Jul 2010)

mr_hippo said:


> Every sport needs its heroes; football needs its 'Roy of the Rovers' and athletics needs its 'Alf Tupper' - for those who have not heard of Alf, ask your Dad or even your Granddad!
> And so it came to pass that after the '98 Festina Affair, cycling and the TdF needed a hero.
> "After Festina dropped us in it last year. we need a patsy, fall-guy, hero but who?"
> "Not only a 'hero' but one with a story behind him."
> ...




I agree mr-hippo but that story is 12 years old now.

We know, pretty much, Armstrong used EPO in 1999

We need a new story now, surely with likeable charactors?

Maybe Brad Wiggins (he says - not believing it himself).


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## Panter (4 Jul 2010)

I love the way the haters keep laying the boot in whilst the man himself just carries on putting in incredible performances 

It was fantastic to see the amount of crowd support he had yesterday too, you can sometimes get a very warped view of cycling's perception on LA through internet forums.

Go Lance, Go!


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## yello (4 Jul 2010)

Whilst I am sure there are 'haters' (just as there are blinkered fanboys) not everyone that raises an eyebrow, and/or has read and questioned, hates Lance Armstrong. It is entirely possible to be objective (in as much as anyone can rid themselves of personal opinion) on the issue.

I've nailed my colours to the mast already. But to go further, having read 'Not About The Bike' I formed the opinion that I probably wouldn't like Armstrong. That's not important (I very much doubt I'd be his type of person either!) but I hope my dislike doesn't bias me too much. I do try to make allowances for it when commenting on related issues.


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## Panter (4 Jul 2010)

I'm quite sure that I'd intensely dislike the man too, to be honest.
Probably goes the same for any athlete, I'm sure you need a degree of self centeredness that I just don't personally like as a character trait.

Lance as a cyclist though? Yes, I'm a fan


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## Chuffy (4 Jul 2010)

yello said:


> Whilst I am sure there are 'haters' (just as there are blinkered fanboys) not everyone that raises an eyebrow, and/or has read and questioned, hates Lance Armstrong. It is entirely possible to be objective (in as much as anyone can rid themselves of personal opinion) on the issue.
> 
> I've nailed my colours to the mast already. But to go further, having read 'Not About The Bike' I formed the opinion that I probably wouldn't like Armstrong. That's not important (I very much doubt I'd be his type of person either!) but I hope my dislike doesn't bias me too much. I do try to make allowances for it when commenting on related issues.


That's pretty much where I'm at. It's not so much him I hate, it's the whole cult that's built up around him. 



Panter said:


> I'm quite sure that I'd intensely dislike the man too, to be honest.
> Probably goes the same for any athlete, I'm sure you need a degree of self centeredness that I just don't personally like as a character trait.


I've said it before, there are plenty of top level sportsmen and women who are a great deal more likeable, despite that selfish focus. I want more from my sporting stars than just a hatful of wins and a f*ck-you attitude. A bit of charm and decency goes a long way. Not to mention not being a cheating bully...


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## raindog (4 Jul 2010)

I read the book too, and found it fascinating, but also found that he came across like a spoilt brat. But love him or loath him, to see a 39 year old bloke putting in the rides he's doing at the moment has to elicit a certain amount of admiration from a cycling point of view. Whether or not he was juiced, and it looks as if he was, I can't believe he'd have the bottle to continue with it now? Mind you........


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## kevin_cambs_uk (4 Jul 2010)

Panter said:


> I love the way the haters keep laying the boot in whilst the man himself just carries on putting in incredible performances
> 
> It was fantastic to see the amount of crowd support he had yesterday too, you can sometimes get a very warped view of cycling's perception on LA through internet forums.
> 
> Go Lance, Go!



I have to admit I am a big fan, and when he retired I lost interest in cycling and the bike never moved, when he came back I was back into it and it helped me to convert to commuting to work, which is the best thing I have done.

He has helped cycling a lot, the drug thing I am still on the fence, half of me can't believe it, the other half says how can he get through the tests all the time if he is on them?

The french tour people loathe him and surely they would have got him by now?

I dunno to win it 7 times is excellent, to escape 10 years of drug abuse that would be even more incredible don't you think?


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## raindog (4 Jul 2010)

kevin_cambs_uk said:


> The french tour people loathe him and surely they would have got him by now?


What "french tour people" would these be?


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## kevin_cambs_uk (4 Jul 2010)

raindog said:


> What "french tour people" would these be?




Sorry I worded that wrong but the fella who runs the tour, and of the paper L'Equippe (which I hope I spelled right) are not exactly his fans either

http://www.bikeradar.com/racing/article/leblanc-why-are-you-coming-back-lance-18810/

Hes not exactly a fan !!


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## raindog (4 Jul 2010)

In two posts you've jumped from "The french tour people loathe him" to "Hes not exactly a fan" 
A bit of difference there.


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## kevin_cambs_uk (4 Jul 2010)

raindog said:


> In two posts you've jumped from "The french tour people loathe him" to "Hes not exactly a fan"
> A bit of difference there.



What I meant is that Jean Le-Marie Blanc who runs the tour does not like Armstrong, I believe the french people do like him, but he does not and I would also expect that the people who run the tour don't like him either, but that is my opinion, I think that Le-Blanc does loathe Armstrong and the media circus that ensues Armstrong and that he probably hates the fact that when Armstrong is in the tour the tour it is more popular and gets more coverage especially in the USA.

Like it or not Armstrong I believe does raise the presence of the tour and cycling as a whole.

I like the guy, he has done a lot for cycling and as far as I am aware he is still innocent until proven otherwise.


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## yello (4 Jul 2010)

Thanks for picking up the baton there raindog. 

I gave up some time ago trying to correct the ludicrously inaccurate 'the French hate Armstrong' statement that some people seem to believe. I suspect, based on my own experiences here in France, that the majority of French people that have actually heard of Armstrong (which in itself is probably a minority of the population) do respect him - simply because he is a cancer survivor and winner of the TdF. 

Yes, there are those that think he's a doper, as there are anywhere. And, also like everywhere else, there are those that actively dislike him. Equally, read any American cycling forum and you will see that there are 'haters' there. 

It's simply not an issue that divides along nationality lines. I don't know where the silly belief comes from but it seems to get trotted out just about as regularly as the one about him being the most tested athlete on the planet.


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## kevin_cambs_uk (4 Jul 2010)

Well I stand corrected 

I was certainly under the impression that the organisers of the tour, especially Le Blanc did not like Armstrong at all. 

c'est la vie!


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## Crackle (4 Jul 2010)

Christian Prudhomme is the Director of the Tour, has been since 2005.


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## mangaman (4 Jul 2010)

kevin_cambs_uk said:


> What I meant is that Jean Le-Marie Blanc who runs the tour does not like Armstrong




Sorry to pull you up Kevin - Leblanc saw Armstrong as a way of globalising cycling and introducing the ridiculous pro-tour. He never did anything to upset Armstrong.

BTW you're only 5 years late 

"In 2005, Prudhomme replaced Le-Blanc as director of the Tour de France"

Just a quote from Wiki - but true.


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## kevin_cambs_uk (5 Jul 2010)

mangaman said:


> Sorry to pull you up Kevin - Leblanc saw Armstrong as a way of globalising cycling and introducing the ridiculous pro-tour. He never did anything to upset Armstrong.
> 
> BTW you're only 5 years late
> 
> ...



don't be sorry mate
I have been corrected my knowledge in this area is badly out of date !


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## lukesdad (5 Jul 2010)

Actually I ll think you ll find that the French took exception to Armstrong originally because of his refusal to give interviews in french during his early wins in the TDF, something that subsequently changed later on.


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## Crankarm (5 Jul 2010)

Basically people hate winners who dominate a sport. These people are generally ignorant of sporting genius and shear hard graft. All class sportsmen and women have suffered Borg, Navratilova, Carl Lewis, Pete Sampras, Steve Davis, Michael Schumacher, Roger Federer .......... and Lance Armstrong.


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## beastie (5 Jul 2010)

Crankarm said:


> Basically people hate winners who dominate a sport. These people are generally ignorant of sporting genius and shear hard graft. All class sportsmen and women have suffered Borg, Navratilova, Carl Lewis, Pete Sampras, Steve Davis, Michael Schumacher, Roger Federer .......... and Lance Armstrong.



Carl Lewis. Hmm. he may be a winner but he has at least 3 failed drugs tests from the 80's when US athletics brushed them under the carpet.


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## yello (6 Jul 2010)

lukesdad said:


> Actually I ll think you ll find that <snip>



You make it sound like fact when what you're expressing is an opinion. 

"The French" did not, on mass and as a nation of people, take a dislike to Armstrong because he didn't speak French in interviews. Cyclists not speaking French is certainly not uncommon, and some of those cyclists get interviewed with a translator where both interviewer and interviewee do not share a common language. Contador is frequently interviewed and never speaks French. Armstrong was interviewed in English yesterday. Cavendish the day before. I even note that Cadel Evans, who tried it in French a year or so back, has reverted back to English. And a number of non English speaking riders get interviewed in English, notably the German riders. 

Btw, some notable cyclists that do speak good French are David Millar, Hushvold, Voight, Vinokourov (which surprised me) .... many others, minds gone blank. Cancellera and the Schlecks do too but I'm not sure if that's to be expected!


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## John the Monkey (6 Jul 2010)

I think the "French hate Armstrong" comes as much from Mr Armstrong himself, remember his "fear" that he was going to be attacked on the tour route? 

He also plays up his dislike for the French at times, memorably wearing a t-shirt depicting a cowboy boot kicking a frog.


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## lukesdad (6 Jul 2010)

The opinion was created by the french press, I remember it very wel not my opinion at all, I ve lived in France in the past and have no axe to grind with the french as a nation. Im fully aware of how interviews are conducted, thank you. The french press are as bad as any other but in this respect their patriotism went to far.


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## yello (6 Jul 2010)

So still an opinion, which you are entitled to. I happen to disagree with it.

I see some truth in what JtM says. I reckon 'the French hate Armstrong' is one of those bits of overt nonsense that gets manipulated as fact for the purposes of agenda.


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## John the Monkey (6 Jul 2010)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...g-French-could-ruin-my-Le-Tour-ambitions.html



> "We have a long history. I know that my comeback wasn't welcomed by a lot of people in France," he said in a video message.



http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gkqU08xcO58LOyIMmYH1O7I_5OmA





> Asked if that meant he feared an attack on next year's tour, Armstrong responded: "Yeah. There are directors of French teams that have encouraged people to take to the streets ... elbow to elbow. It's very emotional and tense."


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## lukesdad (6 Jul 2010)

ITS NOT MY OPINION ! Loud enough ?


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## yello (6 Jul 2010)

Saying it louder doesn't make any difference. 

"The opinion was created by the french press" and "The french press are as bad as any other but in this respect their patriotism went to far" are not facts, agreed? You are offering opinions, no?


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## lukesdad (6 Jul 2010)

No originally I was stating a fact. Which is well documented you turned it in to an opinion to belittle it.


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## John the Monkey (6 Jul 2010)

I've completely lost track of this now.

Show of hands, anyone?


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## kevin_cambs_uk (6 Jul 2010)

John the Monkey said:


> I've completely lost track of this now.
> 
> Show of hands, anyone?



LOL !!!!


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## mr_hippo (6 Jul 2010)

John the Monkey said:


> Zim, your comment puts me in mind of *Sastre*'s '08 win - another classy rider & winner, imo.





John the Monkey said:


> *Brajkovic*?
> I wonder. If Lance has a shaky first week & Levi/*Kloden* go well...Nah, you're right.





John the Monkey said:


> I think the "French hate Armstrong" comes as much from *Mr Armstrong* himself, remember his "fear" that he was going to be attacked on the tour route?


If you want to award the title 'Mister' to Armstrong, please extend that courtesy to all members of the peloton.


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## Noodley (6 Jul 2010)

mr_hippo said:


> If you want to award the title 'Mister' to Armstrong, please extend that courtesy to all members of the peleton.



Peloton. Afford them the courtesy of spelling it correctly.


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## mr_hippo (6 Jul 2010)

Noodley said:


> Peloton. Afford them the courtesy of spelling it correctly.


Slip of the finger - now corrected.


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## John the Monkey (7 Jul 2010)

mr_hippo said:


> If you want to award the title 'Mister' to Armstrong, please extend that courtesy to all members of the peloton.


My sincere apologies, Mr. Hippo, I hope that this over familiarity with the non-7 times winners of the Tour De France has not spoiled your enjoyment of Cycle-Chat today. 

Pip! Pip!


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## Landslide (7 Jul 2010)

Surely Señor Sastre, Gospod Brajkovic and Herr Kloden?


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## Chuffy (7 Jul 2010)

Landslide said:


> Surely Señor Sastre, Gospod Brajkovic and Herr Kloden?


Or we just drop the honorifics and ignore the pedantry of Hippo.


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## Genman (7 Jul 2010)

Chuffy said:


> Or we just drop the honorifics and ignore the pedantry of Hippo.



Good idea Mr Chuffy.


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## yello (7 Jul 2010)

lukesdad said:


> No originally I was stating a fact.





> the French took exception to Armstrong originally because of his refusal to give interviews in french during his early wins in the TDF



That is a fact? I sincerely hope you're not in the judiciary. Without disrespect, that is an opinion. There is no way of testing it's validity for it to be a fact. Surely you can see that?

If you were to change "the French" to "some French people", it becomes an opinion I'd agree with. 

But you simply cannot call sweeping statements 'fact'.


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## John the Monkey (8 Jul 2010)

Genman said:


> Good idea Mr Chuffy.


I support Mr. Chuffy's motion, and further, applaud Mr. Genman's seconding it.


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## Landslide (8 Jul 2010)

Spoilsports...


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