# Apalling actions from an Arriva bus driver



## Matthew_T (22 Aug 2013)

Sigh, yes another 'Matthew_T thread'. However, this one takes the biscuit.

I was cycling along and doing a good speed (about 25mph). I caught up to a bus stopped at a set of traffic lights, so started to filter past them. The lights then turned to amber as I was passing the bus so I sped up (from about 15mph) to pass him safely. I then shoulder checked and moved back in and accelerated up to 28mph. Immediately after the traffic lights was a bus stop with a ped signalling, so I figured I didnt cause the bus any problems.
I carried on and was aware of the bus catching me up. The speed limit on this road is 30mph, and the bus was doing more than that. He then came behind and passed me closely at speed with oncoming traffic.
I just tutted to myself and carried on.I then filtered past the bus again at the next set of lights as well as a few other cars infront of him.
However, when the bus came behind me the second time, I pointed to my camera to just let him know his manouvre had been filmed, and when did he do in return? He gave me the finger.

So after this gesture, I decided that his actions were not acceptable and I was going to have just a polite word.

I carried on and caught up to the bus at the main bus station. I approached the drivers window and politely said "Excuse me". The driver turned and said "What?" I notified him that I would be reporting him to the company and he asked me if I wanted a smack.
This really angered me. Not that he threatened me but that he threatened me when he knows he is going to get in trouble for it.

Apparently his initial excuse for overtaking me so close was because I had 'cut him up'. He claimed that I shoulder checked (yes, I did) and pulled out infront of him (no, I didnt).

A few more words were exchanged until I asked another employee if the manager was in the depot today. He said yes and then asked what had happened. I explained that he had overtaken too close and then flipped me off. 

Then the original driver, and another driver came up to me and all three of them seemed to believe that if a cycle lane exists, then I legally have to use it and I am not allowed on the roads.

I explained to them that that was rubbish and I am entitled to use any road except an M road.

The second driver then said "Lets go ask them what they think". ('Them' referring to two rail police).
We walked over and had a chat with the two officers. The second driver then mentioned that I should get myself a copy of the highway code. I then remembered that I had a copy of the highway code with me. So I got it out and showed them a picture (the popular one) and rule 163. This kind of shocked the guy who then said that it wasnt true.

I concluded with saying to the second guy that he wasnt the driver and I would be reporting it anyway. I apologised to the two officers who suggested that I go to the depot and report it or go to the police station and get advice from them.


So after this, I headed to the depot. I asked to see the manager and went into a room with him. I explained what had happened and he took a statement. I am taking the video footage in tomorrow.The manager was very nice and took my concerns into account. He said that drivers should not be giving abuse to anyone, no matter what happens.

Just as I was leaving, I saw the driver waiting in the lobby. I havent checked my camera to see if he did anything yet, but I just ignored him and walked out.


Sorry about the length of this thread. And CONSTRUCTIVE critisizm is welcomed.


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## Spinney (22 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> I carried on and caught up to the bus at the main bus station. I approached the drivers window and politely said "Excuse me". The driver turned and said "What?" I notified him that I would be reporting him to the company and he asked me if I wanted a smack.


 

It was at this point that you could just have decided to take your video direct to the manager, instead of confronting him. You left him with nowhere to go by saying you were going to report him. If you had started off by asking him _why_ he gave you the finger, and then tried to explain, you might have avoided the remaining confrontation. On the other hand, he could still have been an obnoxious t**t, but you would have stood a slightly better chance of perhaps educating him. 

This is only a very minor criticism. 



> The second driver then mentioned that I should get myself a copy of the highway code. I then remembered that I had a copy of the highway code with me. So I got it out and showed them a picture (the popular one) and rule 163.


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## growingvegetables (22 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> ... The second driver then mentioned that I should get myself a copy of the highway code. I then remembered that I had a copy of the highway code with me. So I got it out and showed them a picture (the popular one) and rule 163. This kind of shocked the guy
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


 
Scruffy layabout student - 1, professional driver - 0


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## Leodis (22 Aug 2013)

No cam footage? I am disappointed

Matthew, this is your best thread to date, I cannot wait for the footage.

I would have loved to see their faces when you produced the highway code book.


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## djb1971 (22 Aug 2013)

Matthew, unless your life has been in 'real' danger just let things go. You've had more aggro in six months than I've had 36 years of cycling on the road. This isn't a dig at you, shoot happens chill a bit or take up downhilling or xc where there's no traffic!


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## Leodis (22 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> The second driver then said "Lets go ask them what they think". ('Them' referring to two rail police).
> We walked over and had a chat with the two officers. *The second driver then mentioned that I should get myself a copy of the highway code. I then remembered that I had a copy of the highway code with me. So I got it out and showed them a picture (the popular one) and rule 163*. This kind of shocked the guy who then said that it wasnt true.


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## Matthew_T (22 Aug 2013)

Leodis said:


> No cam footage? I am disappointed


It will be up soon. Just got to sort it out.


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## jarlrmai (22 Aug 2013)

The bit with the highway code is priceless, I'm almost tearing up with joy.

This whole thing is totally worth it just for that bit, did you get it on camera?

And good for you Matt, that was unacceptable driving.


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## Brandane (22 Aug 2013)

I applaud Matthew for having the courage of his convictions and reporting matters like this. If we all did it, then we would get treated with a lot more respect by drivers. The reason they treat us like something on the sole of their shoe is because they believe that there will be no repercussions for it.

In this particular case (unlike SOME previous episodes ) I do believe Matthew has a genuine cause for grievance. I love the bit about producing the Highway Code book . If I had been in a similar situation, I would probably have let it go, but that is only because I don't like confrontation. It is people like me who make it too easy for these morons; so good on ye this time Matthew!


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## Matthew_T (22 Aug 2013)

jarlrmai said:


> And good for you Matt, that was unacceptable driving.


The overtake wasnt the problem. It was him giving me the finger and saying that he was going to smack me that really caused me to complain.

Fair play the depot manager, he was concerned and said that the driver shouldnt have done anything.


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## Matthew_T (22 Aug 2013)

[QUOTE 2611989, member: 30090"]Hmm, sounds to me like you were caught out filtering?

[/quote]
Believe me, it was not that type of situation. I passed him and knew he would have to stop just ahead. I didnt cut infront of him at all. I was making reasonable progress.


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## boybiker (22 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> It will be up soon. Just got to sort it out.


 
Hurry up!! I cant wait for this corker!


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## PK99 (22 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> Sigh, yes another 'Matthew_T thread'. However, this one takes the biscuit.
> 
> I was cycling along and doing a good speed (about 25mph). I caught up to a bus stopped at a set of traffic lights, so started to filter past them. .


 
Cyclecraft, page 85, Traffic signals:

(emphasis from the book)

*Never pass a bus or long vehicle in the same lane near the head of a signal queue*


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## Matthew_T (22 Aug 2013)

PK99 said:


> Cyclecraft, page 85, Traffic signals:
> 
> (emphasis from the book)
> 
> *Never pass a bus or long vehicle in the same lane near the head of a signal queue*


Why? The bus was slow to move off and I had a good speed when passing him. I judged the manouvre well and would have aborted it or apologised if I had thought it was a silly thing to do.
The footage will add clarity.


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## gaz (22 Aug 2013)

Don't waste your time talking to muppet drivers like that. Just know that you have stuff on film and you can report them later.


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## PK99 (22 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> *Why?* The bus was slow to move off and I had a good speed when passing him. I judged the manouvre well and would have aborted it or apologised if I had thought it was a silly thing to do.
> The footage will add clarity.


 
*Answer>*

Cyclecraft page 129>




> It is much better to stop behind the first vehicle in the queue, allowing the driver to concentrate on choosing a safe moment to move.


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## Jezston (22 Aug 2013)

gaz said:


> Don't waste your time talking to muppet drivers like that. Just know that you have stuff on film and you can report them later.


 
Quite - part of why I got a camera was so I could avoid confrontation - I knew I had the evidence, I could do what I wanted with it as I saw fit.

That bit about the highway code book is effing brilliant though.


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## classic33 (22 Aug 2013)

Try http://www.fixmytransport.com
Was the camera still recording whilst you were talking to the drivers, please say it was.


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## Matthew_T (22 Aug 2013)

The video is a bit of a long one so it might not be up till later.


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## oldfatfool (22 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> I was cycling along and doing a good speed (*about 25mph*). I caught up to a bus stopped at a set of traffic lights, so started to filter past them. The lights then turned to amber as I was passing the bus *so I sped up (from about 15mph) to pass him safely*. I then shoulder checked and *moved back in and accelerated up to 28mph*. Immediately after the traffic lights was a bus stop with a ped signalling, so I figured I didnt cause the bus any problems.
> 
> 
> .


 
I thought at first you must have been in the car, I am really impressed with how your cycling is improving, unless it was a steep downhill?


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## Matthew_T (22 Aug 2013)

oldfatfool said:


> I thought at first you must have been in the car, I am really impressed with how your cycling is improving, unless it was a steep downhill?


Nope. Just long and flat. I think I had a gentle tailwind but I certainly wasnt hanging around.

My fitness has really improved over the summer, I have been pushing on Strava segments which I think has helped.


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## jarlrmai (22 Aug 2013)

I actually meant behaviour, but somehow said driving.

Apologies to all bus drivers.


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## Hip Priest (22 Aug 2013)

As others have said, the Highway Code bit is brilliant.


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## jarlrmai (22 Aug 2013)

I honestly couldn't care if Matt filtered a little hastily I just want to see the highway code bit.

I have it on my phone just incase someone tries that line with me, but they never do.


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## Matthew_T (22 Aug 2013)

jarlrmai said:


> I have it on my phone just incase someone tries that line with me, but they never do.


I carry printouts of the code in my saddlebag just incase I am knocked off and it might be needed. However, in the year that I have had it there, this is the one time that I have used it to good effort.


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## campbellab (22 Aug 2013)

Nothing like a cup of smugness when you can point people at paperwork to prove them completely wrong.


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## Matthew_T (22 Aug 2013)

[QUOTE 2612377, member: 1314"]

...you ever give any positive feedback to roadusers, Matthew? Bent Mike takes choco boxes to bus garages, for example...[/quote]
Of course. Look at my twitter feed, I am tagging companies in my Patience videos all the time. I do praise good driving.

The bus company in question has always been very good when it comes to driving. They are always patient and give me plenty of room when overtaking. I dont know what rattled this guys cage but he seemed to be out for me. It just takes one driver to bring down the company.

LET ME CLARIFY: I am not putting the company in bad rep. I am not listing the company name in the video. This is because the company in general are very good and I dont want one drivers actions to cause dispute within said company. I have made a complaint and will go down the companies route, instead of the police or other authorities.
The driver was the problem, not the company.


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## Matthew_T (22 Aug 2013)

[QUOTE 2612443, member: 1314"]Let's wait for the video then...

...you say you're editing a long video. Why not just post the bits of you overtaking, him over-taking, and then that bit where you point at your camera. That shouldn't take long...[/quote]
Thats pretty much it. Although the convo after took longer than I thought. Apparently it will be up in three hours. So I suggest you take a look tomorrow.


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## jarlrmai (22 Aug 2013)

3 hour upload.... most anticipated movie this year.

I'm imagining a trailer with that deep voiced trailer guy and some super slo mo with whoosh noises .


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## Jezston (22 Aug 2013)

IN A WORLD

WHERE BUS DRIVERS RULE THE STREETS

ONE MAN WILL MAKE HIS STAND


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## buggi (23 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> Why? The bus was slow to move off and I had a good speed when passing him. I judged the manouvre well and would have aborted it or apologised if I had thought it was a silly thing to do.
> The footage will add clarity.


 Because the lights are bound to change and then you will be left in potentially a dangerous position. I too would not filter past a bus or any other heavy goods vehicle when they are sitting at lights at the front of the queue. Any cycle instructor will tell you this. Always best to stay behind, you put yourself in their blind spots, so yes, he would have been annoyed. however, he shouldn't have retaliated, gave you the finger or told you he would smack you. 

This thread makes me want to get a copy of the highway code and keep it in my pocket. i would love to have seen their faces.


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## Cycling Dan (23 Aug 2013)

I imagine the second drivers reaction went a little like this once you showed him the highway code.


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## Matthew_T (23 Aug 2013)

Cycling Dan said:


> I imagine the seconds drivers reaction went a little like this once you showed him the highway code.



LMFAO 
It went just like that!

EDIT: Video will be up in half an hour.


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## Matthew_T (23 Aug 2013)

For those who want to see the 'highway code' part, it is at about 6:00.

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fp-G2bdt1_4


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## User6179 (23 Aug 2013)

They both threatened you with violence so forget the depot manager and take the footage to the police and let them deal with it Imo .

Would be surprised if threatening you wasnt a sackable offence .


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## Cycling Dan (23 Aug 2013)

Couldn't see myself seeking out the driver after. Although what was captured due to it could see a significant increase punishment and also it highlighted the idiots in the workforce. These guys are going to have fun when the reviews come round.


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## gavroche (23 Aug 2013)

Matthew you are a star. That guy saying " a car's door length" is a lot of crap. I hope the bus driver gets a warning at least and be made to read the highway code every day for the next 6 months. As for cycle lanes, we all know it is your choice whether you want to use them or not.


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## glenn forger (23 Aug 2013)

That officious prick with the sunglasses is scary:

"One car door's width, that's all we're allowed to give"

He seriously believes that, it's as if his drivers would get in trouble if they overtook cyclists properly. What a horrible, jumped up little napoleon.


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## Spinney (23 Aug 2013)

Both those guys deserve to have the book thrown at them. Police as well as their boss. 
It's appalling that not only do they not know the highway code, they are insistent that their incorrect information is right, and justifies them passing cyclists too close.

Good on you, Matthew!


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## Spinney (23 Aug 2013)

But none of that excuses those drivers not knowing the Highway Code and threatening Matthew.


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## jarlrmai (23 Aug 2013)

having seen the video your cycling was totally fine, that was a punishment pass you did not hold up that bus at all.

Highway code bit, legendary.


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## PK99 (23 Aug 2013)

User said:


> Let's go back to the beginning.
> 
> You did a stupid overtake at the lights. When he overtook you it didn't seem to be a punishment pass - and he gave you a fair amount of room compared to many bus overtakes. You claim he was speeding but have no way of proving it.
> 
> ...


 
plus,

Matthew, it was not a set of traffic lights it was a Pelican crossing at which YOU overtook at speed on the Zig-Zags, while the law may not forbid a cyclist doing that, it is certainly unwise. Cyclecraft, page 85
"


> Look out particularly for pedestrians making a last minute dash across the road..."


 
and,

Matthew, you started the finger pointing and gesticulation, he gave you the finger in response to your actions. You still have much to learn about how YOUR behaviour impacts on others.

That is not to defend the subsequent behaviours but, as Reg points out, YOU started the chain of events


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## Kbrook (23 Aug 2013)

You overtook the bus originally at a pelican crossing. That's illegal for a car driver to do, I would suggest that when they decided to make it illegal it was because it is a dangerous manoeuvre, although the lights were on green the bus was obstructing your view, how do you know the bus driver wasnt letting a woman with a zimmer frame accross? Crazy cycling, you are far from blameless, seeking confrontation, I don't need you aggravating drivers that I might meet the next day, thanks.
By the way if you are going to ask the police their opinion, find two everyday regular police officers, rather than two PCSOs from the railway, they are never going to have the required knowledge.

By the way I also think the bus driver and other company employees were }{]<>s but as I say you are far from blameless. You may grow up one day.


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## jdtate101 (23 Aug 2013)

You could see it in the guys face when you brought out the HC....OWNED!!!!


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## Spinney (23 Aug 2013)

It wasn't Matthew that approached the PCSOs, it was the bus driver who 'knew' the Highway Code...
(and the PCSOs didn't seem to know it either!)


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## PK99 (23 Aug 2013)

jdtate101 said:


> You could see it in the guys face when you brought out the HC....OWNED!!!!


 

Rather than carrying the Highway Code, Matt would be well advised to study the latest version of Cyclecraft.


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## Boris Bajic (23 Aug 2013)

I watched only as far as the moment when the OP stops at the bus garage to seek out the errant driver.

After that, it is likely to be the theatre of the absurd. I haven't seen it and won't comment on it.

Prior to that, the driving is not great. It is below par for a professional driver. We are not being asked to comment by the bus driver, so I'll leave that there.

The antagonistic attitude of the OP is also poor. I make no accusation of provocation, but the finger waging, the audible swearing and the apparent zeal to hunt down and humiliate the driver are there to be seen.

OP, you have history. You have proudly said on these pages that you've had several taxi drivers sacked, only to drop your claim to (a measly) one taxi driver when challenged. You may deny it, but to many on here you look like a teenager who enjoys a little confrontation.

I wouldn't have passed the bus as you did on the zig-zag and on a changing light, but nor do I think it an offence. I just think it unwise and perhaps less mindful than it might be of other road users.

I simply do not understand the finger-wagging and the swearing and the hunt-down of the bus. The OP really does (despite protestations to the contrary) come across as a Mighty Police Interceptor Wannabe.

You will have your supporters, OP.

Yes, the driving was poor. The response from the cyclist seemed immature, attention-seeking and slightly obsessive in a disturbing way.


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## Brandane (23 Aug 2013)

Having now seen the video....... Your overtake at the Pelican crossing wasn't the smartest manoeuvre I've ever seen, but it doesn't excuse the subsequent actions of the driver. However the scariest part is the other drivers intervention, and his apparent ignorance of the correct procedure for overtaking a cyclist, and our right to use the road whether or not there is a cycle path/lane. As for the PCSOs (from British Transport Police?), they weren't much help; but then they are specifically trained to deal with incidents on railway property.

@Matthew_T: Have you considered reporting the ignorance of basic highway code of these drivers to your local Traffic Commissioner? The TC is the person most feared by professional licence holders (HGV/LGV/PCV) as they hold as much clout (if not more due to less burden of proof required) than the Police and courts. The TC can have them in for a fireside chat, which wouldn't be a pleasant experience, and could result in the suspension of their licence; or at least some re-training.


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## ClichéGuevara (23 Aug 2013)

Ignoring whether he should or shouldn't have carried it on and even ignoring if there was even anything at all to carry on, I'd say Matthews actions have highlighted the ignorance of at least three professional drivers. As a consequence, I reckon there'll be a lot more people in general checking the protocol for passing cyclists and using cycle lanes.

For that I say fair play and well done.


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## ClichéGuevara (23 Aug 2013)

User said:


> Or it will be three more drivers who have their negative preconceptions of cyclists reinforced...


 

Perhaps, but I would hope the management will have corrected their ignorance of the Highway Code along the way. They seemed the sort that would have a negative perception of other road users no matter what the reality was, so that's not really a change (IMHO) and at least they'll be aware of cyclists, even if it's a negative perception. It's like when a car horn hoots because you're riding primary. I don't mind, I think 'ah, you've seen me then'.

The message has now got further than just those three initially involved.


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## fossyant (23 Aug 2013)

Time for you to put the camera away and enjoy your cycling. Its just not worth getting into a verbal fight. Not condoning what the driver did, the pass was a little close, the finger well the driver shouldn't but you've probably lost this guys job with your confrontation. I get far more close passes in city traffic and thats the way it rolls. 

You will soon be infamous in Rhyl with all the taxi and bus drivers. Just don't go boozing in town.


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## akb (23 Aug 2013)

I watched up to the point where you over took the bus at the crossing. I didnt need to watch any more.

You overtook at a crossing for one; stupid move.

MGIF seemed to be your mentality here. I'd rather have the big fook off lump of metal in front of me then behind me. Twice.

Havent seen the HC part; may watch later with sound.

A non incident if you ask me; caused by your stupid move at the crossing; right at the beginning of the vid. You do nothing for the perception of cyclists from motorists. Why did you have to get in front of the bus? Why did you need to filter pass two vehicles to then be overtaken again? I assume you are familiar with this particular stretch of road so you should know that there are plenty of overtaking opportunities; why put yourself in that position in the first place.

You baffle me Matthew_T.


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## endoman (23 Aug 2013)

there's a similar discussion happening on buschat.net.


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## Pale Rider (23 Aug 2013)

The bus driver is the professional and should driving in such a way as to allow for an amateur cyclist riding like an idiot.

So the driver's defence 'Matthew did wrong' doesn't stand up.


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## akb (23 Aug 2013)

Pale Rider said:


> The bus driver is the professional and should driving in such a way as to allow for an amateur cyclist riding like an idiot.
> 
> So the driver's defence 'Matthew did wrong' doesn't stand up.


 
Doesnt stand up....in a court...I agree. But why, as a cyclist, put yourself in that position in the first place? We all share the roads. Why dont we all use a bit of common sense and not ride like an idiot.

(Edit: I'm not implying all cyclists ride like idiots; just Matthew_T in this instance )


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## akb (23 Aug 2013)

endoman said:


> there's a similar discussion happening on buschat.net.


 
Link?


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## Spinney (23 Aug 2013)

fossyant said:


> Time for you to put the camera away and enjoy your cycling. Its just not worth getting into a verbal fight. Not condoning what the driver did, the pass was a little close, the finger well the driver shouldn't but *you've probably lost this guys job with your confrontation*. I get far more close passes in city traffic and thats the way it rolls.
> 
> You will soon be infamous in Rhyl with all the taxi and bus drivers. Just don't go boozing in town.


 

So it's OK to threaten teenagers, swear at them, and (as a professional driver) be ignorant of the highway code and pass cyclists too close? Losing his job would be a bit harsh - retraining would be the best option here. Unless he has previous form.

But you appear to be saying that Matthew should not have said anything _in case the guy loses his job?? _ Matthew may have been a little confrontational, but the guy is in a job with contact with the public, as well as retraining for his driving, he seems to need retraining for dealing with the public.


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## Davidsw8 (23 Aug 2013)

gaz said:


> Don't waste your time talking to muppet drivers like that. Just know that you have stuff on film and you can report them later.


 
Couldn't agree more with this, there's no point arguing the toss with someone after the fact. Just get the footage and report them. If something is in progress then by all means address it.

I was in an ASZ yesterday evening at a red light and a guy on a scooter pulled up beside me to my right. I looked at him and said 'you know this is for cyclists?' he says 'oh.... is that 3 points?', I said 'Yes, it is 3 points' then the lights changed and as I moved off, I could hear him let out a hearty laugh. Then, from being on my right, he held back a moment and turned left. I could kick myself I didn't let him go before me cos I didn't get his numberplate.

It wasn't the fact that he didn't know about the ASZ, cos he did, it was the fact that he found it SO funny and simply couldn't give a toss that wound me up.

I might get myself a paper copy of the highway code to keep in my bag though, that's such a good idea.


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## Spinney (23 Aug 2013)

To me, that was the implication of the post I quoted. The poster did not condone the actions, so maybe my wording should have been clearer, but if Matthew had not confronted him then he would no doubt carry on driving at that poor standard.


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## deptfordmarmoset (23 Aug 2013)

2 threats of assault from drivers quoting from the Get Out of MyWay Code. I'm not sure that the whole bus depôt doesn't need retraining. And the close pass when there are oncoming vehicles in the other lane was plain bad driving. Failure to read the road ahead, judge the speed of the vehicle he's overtaking and then squeezing in, stealing Matthew's wee bit of road.

Personally, being lazy, I'd not have done the first overtake - I would have slowed down behind the bus and then drafted it as it accelerated away from the green light. We all tend to live in a kind of Morse code kind of world where it's dash-stop-dash-stop, the stop being necessary because of the speed of the dash. Bikes, on the other hand, are very well suited to ride-pootle-ride-pootle mode, where you scrub enough speed to make stops less necessary and keep as much momentum as you can going.


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## Davidsw8 (23 Aug 2013)

Maybe the more cyclists report stuff and the more drivers know that some cyclists wear cameras, maybe people will realise there are consequences to bad behaviour and that will inform their driving choices in the future?

If someone puts me in physical danger, I have no qualms about putting their job on the line. If someone simply breaks the law, I do feel a little bad about reporting them but it's like smacking a child, do you let them carry on with bad behaviour just to avoid any unpleasantness?


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## Matthew_T (23 Aug 2013)

I understand people saying the the overtake at the crossing was a silly thing to do. However, you can see that I passed the bus after he blocked the crossing. If there had been a ped infront of him, I would have not only seen it from the other side of the bus (when I was behind him) and through the bus. The bus would also be moving off very slowly or not at all.
I then knew the bus wouldnt be accelerating up to a proper speed because of the ped at the bus stop.

In terms of cutting up the bus: I did not. You can see that clearly in the rear view. I shoulder checked to move back in when I was safely ahead of the bus.


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## Origamist (23 Aug 2013)

Ever the optimist, I hope Matthew will be a bit more circumspect when passing long vehicles when the lights are changing and at least one bus driver will benefit from a stern word/warning and receive further training/advice on how to behave around vulnerable road users.


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## glenn forger (23 Aug 2013)

> "If I see that on YouTube, you won't get a car door width from me."


 
Scary.

Scary that he seems to be threatening something. Scary that professional drivers think cycle lanes are ,mandatory. These people are supposed to be trained, they are cluless thugs.


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## fossyant (23 Aug 2013)

Spinney, I am not saying anything of the sought. It was a non situation that was escalated for no real reason. 

The driver is in the wrong, but as we all know, start confronting people and they say all sorts, some quite aggressive. Yes the driver needs a word, but there are two overtakes by Matthew that are not necessary, and the camera tapping, and then to follow the driver into the depot as well ?

Really is all this confrontation necessary? Matthews condition also causes reactions that wouldn't be seen as necessary in folk without his condition. 

As someone said before Matthew does have more incidents that anyone I know added together. I also can't see the attraction of riding up and down the Rhyl Prestatyn road and through the centre of Rhyl. There are far nicer routes in the area. Anyway why is this in Commuting as its not a commuting ride.

I feel the whole thing could have been avoided by Matthew not getting worked up by it and being passive aggressive. He could have gone on and had a good ride, totally spoiled by following the bus and having a confrontation. 

Close passes are a part of life, anticipate and then go on to enjoy the ride.


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## Boris Bajic (23 Aug 2013)

My youngest and my youngest nephew are a year apart and the best of friends. But when they were toddlers, they had an extraordinary disdain for one another.

On family holidays, one would find a quite valueless object (a stick or similar) and somehow parade in front of the other, muttering "I've got a stick" (with the clear implication that the other didn't have one). It was hilarious to onlookers, but pure, merciless war to the little boys. It was so utterly trivial, so terribly predictable and (like a scratched scab) so constantly noticeable.

Much as I wanted my nephew to be the instigator rather than my son, it was clear that both parties were equally to blame for the comical (and tragic) bitterness that they allowed to burn between them. Both went looking for it and both got it in spades. Each saw himself as the moral victor.

Our kids didn't have snacks between meals but our nephew did, so he'd leave his breakfast and then beg for a jam sandwich and sashay over to our boy as he ate it. He then gloated when our boy asked and was refused. Our boy did similar things with different media or some simple ball trick he'd mastered and the other hadn't.. Even who sat where in the bath was like the UNSC in hot debate.

Why do I tell this silly tale? For this reason: I find that Matthew_T's behaviour among other road users reminds me of those now-grown-up toddlers in their pomp at the age of three. The similarity in uncanny.

Matthew, there is hope. Both are now lovely boys and the best of friends. They have learned to live and let live.


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## glenn forger (23 Aug 2013)

> You are not allowed to use the main road if there is a cycle lane!


 
Frankly that's rank idiocy and incompetence, it's like saying it's against the law to overtake blue cars. That officious little squirt wants sacking.


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## Brandane (23 Aug 2013)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> I'm not sure that the whole bus depôt doesn't need retraining.


 
This would also be a concern of the Traffic Commissioner. If those drivers sincerely believe what they were saying about overtaking clearance distance, and cyclists using the road where there is a cycle path/lane, then it doesn't look too good for Arriva's driver training policy.

The other possibility is of course that the drivers are well aware of the highway code, and were just at the wind-up or trying in vain to defend the original driver's actions.


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## glasgowcyclist (23 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> For those who want to see the 'highway code' part, it is at about 6:00.


 

If I may make a few points:
The overtake on the pelican crossing approach was dangerous, unneccessary and plain daft.
His pass was closer than it should have been.
Pointing at the driver then to your head was a waste of time as he'd be unlikely to realise you were conveying a message that he was being filmed. He might have mistaken it for an insult on your part and repaid in kind.

His offer of a slap at the depot was unacceptable, as was the comment by the other employee who, in my view, was threatening you with a punishment pass if he ever saw you on the road. For these comments alone their boss should be having a strong word with them.

Some are saying you initiated the chain of events, and it's true that had you held back at the pelican crossing the confrontation might never have happened. However, you have highlighted that there are at least three employees of that company who need to be retrained on their awareness of the HC and how to pass cyclists safely. If you hadn't brought this to the company's attention they'd still be out there behaving like dicks. (Producing the Highway Code was priceless!)

Now you just need to re-evaluate your own approach to overtaking on a bike. Urgently.

GC


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## endoman (23 Aug 2013)

akb said:


> Link?


 

Sorry , should have been in purple font. Just meant that today the bus drivers will be talking about a cyclist who blew his horn at them, and then started gesticulating and followed him to the depot. Not condoning the bus driver at all.


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## Spinney (23 Aug 2013)

fossyant said:


> Spinney,* I am not saying anything of the sought.* It was a non situation that was escalated for no real reason.
> 
> The driver is in the wrong, but as we all know, start confronting people and they say all sorts, some quite aggressive. Yes the driver needs a word, but there are two overtakes by Matthew that are not necessary, and the camera tapping, and then to follow the driver into the depot as well ?
> 
> ...


 
Sorry - probably reacting to having seen too many 'but he/she might lose his job' reasons for not complaining. 

As someone else has pointed out, there are apparently 3 drivers who do not know the highway code, so on balance the confrontation _may_ have achieved something if the depot manager is as sensible as Matthew seems to think he is.


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## Hip Priest (23 Aug 2013)

Yet another completely avoidable flare-up that'll achieve nothing other than to cause all parties a load of unnecessary bother and stress.


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## Jezston (23 Aug 2013)

fossyant said:


> Close passes are a part of life, anticipate and then go on to enjoy the ride.


 
I think the general ignorance highlighted by the Highway Code bit show that close passes shouldn't just be 'a part of life'.


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## Jezston (23 Aug 2013)

Just realised there's something interesting about people on this forum who disagree with others for confronting people and escalating issues by telling them off and getting into an argument with them ... by confronting them and escalating issues by telling them off and getting into argument with them.


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## StuartG (23 Aug 2013)

Hip Priest said:


> Yet another completely avoidable flare-up that'll achieve nothing other than to cause all parties a load of unnecessary bother and stress.


 
Yes. I just read page 1 and then skipped to page 5. Sorry if I missed anything vital but I have a life too ...

The OP account was just like watching a train crash is slow motion. A little perturbation leading to reaction which led to another reaction which led to yet another. I suppose its good the OP is just a cyclist and not a military dictator. People get killed if flares ups are not contained and decontaminated.

I'm sorry the fact the bus driver is wrong is almost irrelevant here. Next time remember what your objectives are: Reasonable ones are:

* Making the driver aware there was an issue but you have forgiven him (just a smile is enough)
* Sending a polite note to Arriva (with DVD) wondering if it would help improve their driver's training and behaviour
* Send a stiff note (with DVD) asking Arriva to investigate the incident and report back (and say you prefer doing this informally rather going to the police which wastes everybody's time)
* Go to the police

Which in the ascending scale is appropriate has to be judged by the seriousness of the incident and evidence available. Looks like one of the first two to me. All the OP did was to make a pig's ear of the whole incident. Nothing good was ever going to come from it. Just a load of aggravated people - including me. When you pi** off your own side there is a lesson to be learnt.


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## glenn forger (23 Aug 2013)

> I'm sorry the fact the bus driver is wrong is almost irrelevant here.


 
You don't think it's alarming that professional drivers believe cycle lanes are compulsory?


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## Leodis (23 Aug 2013)

Boris Bajic said:


> My youngest and my youngest nephew are a year apart and the best of friends. But when they were toddlers, they had an extraordinary disdain for one another.
> 
> On family holidays, one would find a quite valueless object (a stick or similar) and somehow parade in front of the other, muttering "I've got a stick" (with the clear implication that the other didn't have one). It was hilarious to onlookers, but pure, merciless war to the little boys. It was so utterly trivial, so terribly predictable and (like a scratched scab) so constantly noticeable.
> 
> ...


 
You should write Mills & Boons


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## StuartG (23 Aug 2013)

glenn forger said:


> You don't think it's alarming that professional drivers believe cycle lanes are compulsory?


 
I think it unsurprising. The issue is we don't really have a concept of professional driving unlike other activities. When Arriva (or any other company) reacts to an infraction or ignorance of road regulations in the same way as they would if it was one of their train drivers then we would be getting somewhere. Especially as train drivers have a somewhat better safety record.

Whether you are a professional road user or not, you can with little risk dispense with the Highway Code and any need to refresh and update your knowledge and skills the day you pass your test. As society is unwilling to force the issue here then relying on road user's own conscience to do so is not going to work ninety something per cent of the time is it?

I'm afraid its us collectively that are the problem. That driver was but a symptom.


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## campbellab (23 Aug 2013)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> 2 threats of assault from drivers quoting from the Get Out of MyWay Code. I'm not sure that the whole bus depôt doesn't need retraining. And the close pass when there are oncoming vehicles in the other lane was plain bad driving. Failure to read the road ahead, judge the speed of the vehicle he's overtaking and then squeezing in, stealing Matthew's wee bit of road.
> 
> Personally, being lazy, I'd not have done the first overtake - I would have slowed down behind the bus and then drafted it as it accelerated away from the green light. We all tend to live in a kind of Morse code kind of world where it's dash-stop-dash-stop, the stop being necessary because of the speed of the dash. Bikes, on the other hand, are very well suited to ride-pootle-ride-pootle mode, where you scrub enough speed to make stops less necessary and keep as much momentum as you can going.


 
That dash stop dash stop is a sign of poor driving without anticipation. You cant always maintain momentum but the amount of people who break the speed limit only to get stopped at the lights time and time again amazes me.


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## glenn forger (23 Aug 2013)

> I'm afraid its us collectively that are the problem. That driver was but a symptom.


 
Bum gravy. It's not Matthew's fault the bus driver hasn't a clue about road traffic law. It's not my fault either. It's not any cyclist's fault. It's the driver's fault.


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## Davidsw8 (23 Aug 2013)

glenn forger said:


> Bum gravy. It's not Matthew's fault the bus driver hasn't a clue about road traffic law. It's not my fault either. It's not any cyclist's fault. It's the driver's fault.


 
True, it is the drivers' fault but one reason he couldn't be bothered to educate himself is that society generally let's him get away with it. Traffic laws are seemingly rarely enforced and when they are, the penalties are pitiful.

The other day, I watched a cyclist run a red light by overtaking a police van, the police did nothing. And I know they can if they want to as I saw a bus do the same thing in Hackney a couple of months ago and the police car put on his blues n two's and pulled him over.

I've also watched cyclists run red lights outside Kennington Tube and not one of the other stopped cyclists says anything - we should embarrass these idiots into complying with the law not just apathetically shrug it off.


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## Matthew_T (23 Aug 2013)

Davidsw8 said:


> True, it is the drivers' fault but one reason he couldn't be bothered to educate himself is that society generally let's him get away with it. Traffic laws are seemingly rarely enforced and when they are, the penalties are pitiful.


I understand where you are coming from but Arriva are very strict when it comes to their training. They have something called a DriveSafe Driver training system which evaluates every part of their journey in detail. I have been forwarded their training material with regards to cyclists and below is a quote in relation to overtaking cyclists:


> OVERTAKE CAREFULLY
> · Stay back, do not travel too close when following a cyclist –
> even experiencedcyclistsmay not hear rear-engine buses
> approaching.
> ...


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## glenn forger (23 Aug 2013)

StuartG said:


> I'm afraid its us collectively that are the problem. That driver was but a symptom.


 
How on eart can you blame the driver's ignorance on cyclists? It's baffling, it's like blaming cheese for hot weather, it's stripping the bus driver of any responsibility.


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## glenn forger (23 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> I understand where you are coming from but Arriva are very strict when it comes to their training. They have something called a DriveSafe Driver training system which evaluates every part of their journey in detail. I have been forwarded their training material with regards to cyclists and below is a quote in relation to overtaking cyclists:


 

That seems clear enough to me. Blaming cyclists for that driver/inspector's ignorance makes no sense whatsoever.


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## StuartG (23 Aug 2013)

glenn forger said:


> Bum gravy. It's not Matthew's fault the bus driver hasn't a clue about road traffic law. It's not my fault either. It's not any cyclist's fault. It's the driver's fault.


 
Oh come on most of us haven't a clue about road traffic law. If you asked a 100 cyclists about the only legal way to enter an ASL - how many would get it wrong? More or less than 90?

There is no requirement, worse still no encouragement, to know it beyond taking your test if you drive. We just know a bit about the bits likely to get you a fine. That level of ignorance is not afforded to pilots or train drivers. We expect them to be pretty much word perfect on the rules and regulations and adhere to them. They get fired if they don't. It is society that chooses to create an environment and appropriate checking or enforcement. We don't do it for the road. Until we do then you have to be unsurprised at people's ignorance. That includes Arriva bus drivers. And it your fault if you don't accept that unfortunate reality.

Remember its your life that's on the line here. Scream at those that can help to change society. More use than screaming and pi**ing off another driver.


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## Davidsw8 (23 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> I understand where you are coming from but Arriva are very strict when it comes to their training. They have something called a DriveSafe Driver training system which evaluates every part of their journey in detail. I have been forwarded their training material with regards to cyclists and below is a quote in relation to overtaking cyclists:


 
Interesting reading... the amount of buses I've had right up my proverbial and I've often wondered 'if I hit a pothole now, I'm under that bus...'


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## glenn forger (23 Aug 2013)

Now it's society's fault?

Piffle. If someone is ignorant about their job and doesn't remember their training it is not Thatcher's fault, not cyclist's fault, and not society's fault. It's that person's fault.


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## campbellab (23 Aug 2013)

I agree that the overtake on the pelican wasn't great (nb the bus driver also overtakes on another set of zig zag lines) but I didn't think it was the cause of any retaliation.

I did think the overtake by the bus driver was just a normal overtake on their part. Not saying it was good or bad - some people would be happy/acclimatized with that distance but its always harder to judge from the video. But then when the bus driver said he thought you were pulling out on him maybe it was.

I think the finger would probably mostly be instigated by the use of the airzound tbh.

Ignorance/intimidation of the bus drivers wasn't really on.

Matt, you need to stick to facts and say a lot less.

a) There was no reason to approach the driver at the depot as you didn't have any questions you should have just gone to the manager directly. You may have wanted to ask 'why did you pass so close, or why did you give me the finger?' and resolved the situation with just him but its likely this would escalate as well. Your confrontation just inflames the situation and appears a bit vindictive.

b) 'You'll be going to review' 'You do realise you'll lose your job over this' etc aren't factual and are threatening. You might wish to inform him of facts 'I'll be speaking to the depot manager' but no more.


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## campbellab (23 Aug 2013)

glenn forger said:


> How on eart can you blame the driver's ignorance on cyclists? It's baffling, it's like blaming cheese for hot weather, it's stripping the bus driver of any responsibility.


 
I think 'us' in this example isn't cyclists but the general populace. IE generally driving enforcement is pretty poor.


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## StuartG (23 Aug 2013)

glenn forger said:


> Now it's society's fault?
> Piffle. If someone is ignorant about their job and doesn't remember their training it is not Thatcher's fault, not cyclist's fault, and not society's fault. It's that person's fault.


(Pauses here in realising I'm committing the sin I visited on Matthew by responding in a way likely to ramp up the other person's blood pressure even more)

Look at our own posts Glen. Immediate over the top and multiple reactions casting abuse but, from this angle, lacking understanding of what was written. Is responding with 'Bum', Piffle etc rather than a reasoned response likely to engage and convince? Or will people be more likely respond with similar abuse?

If you ride with a similar attitude you are a poor cyclist. In fact a poor person. More worrying to me is that attitude is more likely to make you a dead person. Whose fault will that be?


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## Deleted member 20519 (23 Aug 2013)

"Professional driver"


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## glasgowcyclist (23 Aug 2013)

glenn forger said:


> You don't think it's alarming that professional drivers believe cycle lanes are compulsory?


 
Driving a bus, a taxi, or a lorry only means you've passed a test of basic competence to handle that vehicle safely, it's not an award of an advanced driving qualification.
These people are commercial drivers and should be referred to as such. Calling them professional has the danger of bestowing on them, as most of them appear to believe, a higher status. This is wholly undeserved.

'Professional driver' is a cliche that's also fast becoming an oxymoron. I put it right up there with 'law-abiding motorists'.
Commercial driver is more apt.


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## Spinney (23 Aug 2013)

StuartG said:


> Oh come on most of us haven't a clue about road traffic law. If you asked a 100 cyclists about the only legal way to enter an ASL - how many would get it wrong? More or less than 90?
> 
> There is no requirement, worse still no encouragement, to know it beyond taking your test if you drive. We just know a bit about the bits likely to get you a fine. That level of ignorance is not afforded to pilots or train drivers. We expect them to be pretty much word perfect on the rules and regulations and adhere to them. They get fired if they don't. It is society that chooses to create an environment and appropriate checking or enforcement. We don't do it for the road. Until we do then you have to be unsurprised at people's ignorance. That includes Arriva bus drivers. And it your fault if you don't accept that unfortunate reality.
> 
> Remember its your life that's on the line here. Scream at those that can help to change society. More use than screaming and pi**ing off another driver.


 

A cyclist entering an ASL over a solid line isn't really comparable with a bus driver apparently thinking that he's not allowed to give _more_ than a car door's width space to a cyclist, and thinking that cyclists are _required_ to be in the cycle lane if there is one.


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## StuartG (23 Aug 2013)

glasgowcyclist said:


> 'Professional driver' is a cliche that's also fast becoming an oxymoron. I put it right up there with 'law-abiding motorists'.


Commercial or Private drivers should both have a professional attitude to driving. Most don't because it is not an expectation. And without expectations you won't get much achievement. It should not be a cliche. It should be exactly what we should be agitating for.

You also forgot to add a smiley at the end.


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## StuartG (23 Aug 2013)

Spinney said:


> A cyclist entering an ASL over a solid line isn't really comparable with a bus driver apparently thinking that he's not allowed to give _more_ than a car door's width space to a cyclist, and thinking that cyclists are _required_ to be in the cycle lane if there is one.


 
I didn't say it was. I was just seeking to establish that we actually know very little about road traffic law even when it applies to us. Inevitably we are likely to know even less when it applies to others.


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## Boris Bajic (23 Aug 2013)

Jezston said:


> Just realised there's something interesting about people on this forum who disagree with others for confronting people and escalating issues by telling them off and getting into an argument with them ... by confronting them and escalating issues by telling them off and getting into argument with them.



I may be guilty in this matter and it is an interesting observation.

I do think the driving was poor, but I also think the cycling was poor in parts and the attitude of the OP was embarrassing.

I think his (repeated and exhaustive) seeking of confrontation in this and other threads is alarming and undignified.

My thinking that and posting it may be seen as confrontational. Maybe it is.

I am responding to a post on the internet seeking comment. I am not shouting, swearing, sounding an airhorn, gesticulating, following someone in traffic and confronting them with bizarre and unpleasant language in front of their passengers and customers. 

I find it deeply troubling that this sort of behaviour is somehow encouraged and excused on these pages. My three children straddle the OP in age. I would be furious if any of them had acted as he did. All are keen cyclists. All have strong views. None is afraid of confrontation, least of all with me, sadly.

But they do not behave as the OP did and I give a little prayer of thanks to the God I don't believe in that they don't. If a child of mine rode and behaved like that, I might be on my way to an ulcer or worse.


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## glenn forger (23 Aug 2013)

StuartG said:


> (Pauses here in realising I'm committing the sin I visited on Matthew by responding in a way likely to ramp up the other person's blood pressure even more)
> 
> Look at our own posts Glen. Immediate over the top and multiple reactions casting abuse but, from this angle, lacking understanding of what was written. Is responding with 'Bum', Piffle etc rather than a reasoned response likely to engage and convince? Or will people be more likely respond with similar abuse?
> 
> If you ride with a similar attitude you are a poor cyclist. In fact a poor person. More worrying to me is that attitude is more likely to make you a dead person. Whose fault will that be?


 

Saying bum and piffle is a way of pointing out the paucity of your argument, they are attacking your argument, not you personally, you delicate flower. Tell you what, when you go back to work, take a huge dump on the photocopier then draw a huge spaffing cock on your boss's desk. At the disciplinary meeting, blame society.

Let us know how you get on.


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## Matthew_T (23 Aug 2013)

I went to the depot today to hand in the video and show it to the manager. Conveniently the manager wasnt in, so i just handed them the CD. If I dont hear anything in a week then I will pass it onto the Arriva complaints department to try and get some kind of response.


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## glenn forger (23 Aug 2013)

StuartG said:


> If you ride with a similar attitude you are a poor cyclist. In fact a poor person. More worrying to me is that attitude is more likely to make you a dead person. Whose fault will that be?


 
SOCIETY'S!!!

I can pretty much guarantee I've cycled a lot more miles than you, through dodgy areas of London. Describing your lame argument as bum gravy no more reflects on how I cycle than it does on the way I vote, you're scrabbling around for reasons to attack me personally when all I've done is highlight how poor your argument is. And, ducky, posting fantasies about people dying is pretty sick, have a word with yourself.


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## glenn forger (23 Aug 2013)

Davidsw8 said:


> Interesting reading... the amount of buses I've had right up my proverbial and I've often wondered 'if I hit a pothole now, I'm under that bus...'


 

It's pretty clear cut, whoever that sunglasses-wearing bod was he hasn't got a clue about road traffic law, he's forgotten his training and he says the Highway Code is "wrong". These aren't minor aberrations, they demonstrate he's not fit to hold his position.


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## glasgowcyclist (23 Aug 2013)

StuartG said:


> You also forgot to add a smiley at the end.


 
To indicate what?

GC


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## glenn forger (23 Aug 2013)

Jezston said:


> Just realised there's something interesting about people on this forum who disagree with others for confronting people and escalating issues by telling them off and getting into an argument with them ... by confronting them and escalating issues by telling them off and getting into argument with them.


 

Or posting lurid fantasies about their death. That's reasoned debate right there.


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## Matthew_T (23 Aug 2013)

Boris Bajic said:


> I may be guilty in this matter and it is an interesting observation.
> 
> I do think the driving was poor, but I also think the cycling was poor in parts and the attitude of the OP was embarrassing.
> 
> ...


I understand your opinion but my cycling was far from the worst. The overtake at the crossing was the only bad thing, but it didnt deserve to be treated in such a way that put me in danger.
With regards to the confronting, I do tend to let my feelings get the better of me. But I think that is true of anyone who is of my age and cycles. I have a lot to learn and I am not afraid to admit that, however when I feel that something is wrong (I have black and white views) then i am not afraid to raise peoples awareness to the dangers that they pose against a cyclist.
I could have been a bit more assertive and less confrontational when I spoke with the guy but having seen the training that the drivers get, I was more shocked that appalled at his driving and attitude.

My cycling was far from perfect but it did not cause the problem.


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## cd365 (23 Aug 2013)

That was quality bringing out the Highway Code. He needs to go read it himself properly.
There are quite a few incidents here that Arriva needs to be looking at.


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## StuartG (23 Aug 2013)

glenn forger said:


> Saying bum and piffle is a way of pointing out the paucity of your argument, they are attacking your argument, not you personally, you delicate flower. Tell you what, when you go back to work, take a huge dump on the photocopier then draw a huge spaffing cock on your boss's desk. At the disciplinary meeting, blame society.
> 
> Let us know how you get on.


 
Clearly we will continue to differ on whether this attitude is helpful to your cycling, family, career ... life. I wish you a good afternoon.
(I'm really a petunia in case you were confused).


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## glenn forger (23 Aug 2013)

What attitude?

You said the actions of the driver were society's fault. I said this is piffle, you replied by saying I'd soon be dead if I had that attitude on the roads. Have you suffered a recent head injury?


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## glenn forger (23 Aug 2013)

Someone's tweeted Arriva the clip, those two Arriva employees are going to have an uncomfortable few days.


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## Matthew_T (23 Aug 2013)

glenn forger said:


> What attitude?
> 
> You said the actions of the driver were society's fault. I said this is piffle, you replied by saying I'd soon be dead if I had that attitude on the roads. Have you suffered a recent head injury?


Calm down guys. Please dont start insulting each other or arguing. Its not what this thread is for.


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## Matthew_T (23 Aug 2013)

glenn forger said:


> Someone's tweeted Arriva the clip, those two Arriva employees are going to have an uncomfortable few days.


That was me. Everyday someone is on the twitter feed so I thought it would be wise just to let the head office know what is happening.


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## glenn forger (23 Aug 2013)

No, somebody else I think Matthew. It will be incredibly frustrating for whoever's in charge of driver training to see those two monkeys pontificating on stuff they know nothing about, and that directly contradicts company policy.


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## glenn forger (23 Aug 2013)

> ​
> *DrMorocho *2 hours ago
> A despicable driver's attitude @arrivabuswales & the ignorance of the @HighwayCodeGB from your employees is #BeyondBelief


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## StuartG (23 Aug 2013)

glenn forger said:


> You said the actions of the driver were society's fault.


I think you missed the point I was, somewhat inadequately, trying to make. If you had tried to understand rather than over react we might have got somewhere. But as topic has become focussed on reaction of one party to another I shall treasure yours as a brilliant contribution. A good afternoon again.


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## Matthew_T (23 Aug 2013)

Oh okay. Yes i have seen that one too.


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## glenn forger (23 Aug 2013)

StuartG said:


> I think you missed the point I was, somewhat inadequately, trying to make. If you had tried to understand rather than over react we might have got somewhere. But as topic has become focussed on reaction of one party to another I shall treasure yours as a brilliant contribution. A good afternoon again.


 

Say it's society's fault. Then say another poster will soon be dead. Then run away. 

Turn your computer off stuart, you're not fit for reasoned debate here or anywhere else.


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## fossyant (23 Aug 2013)

Matthew this black and white view you have is down to your condition. I really do worry you are going to come to harm with the confrontations you have. You are a young lad, who isn't the 'biggest' of folk, and wading in like you do, one day you will meet someone who will respond in violence.

I've no doubt had you crossed that fat bus driver whilst he was in his car, he probably would have lamped you one. Please be careful. Some nutter will remove your camera and shove it where the sun doesn't shine. The world is full of nutters, bad drivers etc.


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## fossyant (23 Aug 2013)

glenn forger said:


> Someone's tweeted Arriva the clip, those two Arriva employees are going to have an uncomfortable few days.



Oh great.


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## glenn forger (23 Aug 2013)

fossyant said:


> Oh great.


 

I know, those two cretins need to be removed from their job asap.


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## fossyant (23 Aug 2013)

PS just a reminder about personal abuse folks. Keep it pleasant.


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## glenn forger (23 Aug 2013)

Yeah, you keep saying that fossyant, it makes no difference. Saying people are mentally ill and will soon be dead ought really to be banning offences, they would be in a workplace, why not here?


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## Davidsw8 (23 Aug 2013)

fossyant said:


> Matthew this black and white view you have is down to your condition. I really do worry you are going to come to harm with the confrontations you have. You are a young lad, who isn't the 'biggest' of folk, and wading in like you do, one day you will meet someone who will respond in violence.
> 
> I've no doubt had you crossed that fat bus driver whilst he was in his car, he probably would have lamped you one. Please be careful. Some nutter will remove your camera and shove it where the sun doesn't shine. The world is full of nutters, bad drivers etc.


 
I'm very wary of pointing out that I'm wearing a camera to people (tho it is obvious if you look), like you say, if someone thinks it's going to get them into bother, they could grab for the camera or smack you one.

Film the event, go home, report it.


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## StuartG (23 Aug 2013)

glasgowcyclist said:


> To indicate what?


Thank you for asking.

I think you were describing law-abiding motorist as an oxymoron. 
Well one of my favourite stats I throw at the unwashed is 80% of motorists admit to regularly exceeding speed limits. The good news is 20% of motorists do not admit this. Let's be generous and assume most of these don't. Just like most cyclists stop at traffic lights some motorists try and drive within the law. Perhaps unsurprisingly both sets tend to be invisible to each other.

20% is good. Growing it to 30% then growing it to 40% and so on is what we want. IMHO law-abiding motorists should be treasured and supported and not lumped together with the criminal classes.


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## glenn forger (23 Aug 2013)

StuartG said:


> Thank you for asking.
> 
> I think you were describing law-abiding motorist as an oxymoron.
> Well one of my favourite stats I throw at the unwashed is 80% of motorists admit to regularly exceeding speed limits. The good news is 20% of motorists do not admit this. Let's be generous and assume most of these don't. Just like most cyclists stop at traffic lights some motorists try and drive within the law. Perhaps unsurprisingly both sets tend to be invisible to each other.
> ...


 


What's that got to do with saying other posters will soon be dead because they use the word "piffle?"


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## deptfordmarmoset (23 Aug 2013)

[QUOTE 2613196, member: 45"]Whatever you might think of Matthew's approach, consider some important positives;


Matthew has a positive relationship with the depot manager. The problem with writing in is that you get, without exception, the standard bible-template response from a bus company "we take this very serious.....the driver has been spoken to". I know that on at least one occasion when I've had that letter it has been a lie. I also know that when I've spoken directly to customer services, at National Express for example, I've spoken to a person who has listened and who I'm satisfied is interested and committed to improving the experience that the public have of their company. It's great that Matthew was able to walk into the depot manager's office and speak to him.
During Matt's conversation with the drivers he made them aware that he knew the depot manager and that he had some experience of their training programme. You could see that these two facts had an impact on them and that they were less dismissive as a result. Matthew has worked to build this relationship. Few people criticise Magnatom for putting himself in the same position, and the only difference here is Matthew's level of "enthusiasm".
Matthew knows the HC. He had a copy. I've stood and argued HC with idiots and it's been nothing more than "Yes it is, no it isn't, yes it is" and got nowhere.Being able to pull out a copy, in front of a PCSO, and shame them with it is great and without doubt will have taught them something.
Yes, there may be an argument that Matthew gets himself into more situations than others think appropriate, but he's prepared and amongst any enemys he might be making there is evidence of valuable relationships being worked at, and he's willing to do more than moan about it on the internet which changes nothing. It's doing far more than a punch in the face would, which others advocate on here.[/quote]
Good point, very well made.


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## Boris Bajic (23 Aug 2013)

glenn forger said:


> Or posting lurid fantasies about their death. That's reasoned debate right there.


 
I'm not sure where you get off on criticising people for posting_ 'lurid fantasies about death'_. sir Forger. Here's one you posted on 5 January this year in the Mobile Phones thread (post #47) after I mentioned I had a daughter who cycled:



glenn forger2 said:


> It's a sort of radical disconnect. "I've never been hit by a driver on a mobile so it's not a huge problem" repeated right up until the point of *the closed casked funeral of his daughter, her face scraped off by a driver chatting on a mobile*. Not a huge problem, cos it's never happened to him. A painful lesson waiting for him.


 
You were criticisoing me for not having a huge issue with drivers on 'phones. I'd mentioned my daughter in an earlier post in the thread - and for reasons I shall never understand, you thought it appropriate to conjour images of her disfigured corpse in a closed casket. I take it you do not have children and I somehow pray that you decide never to. My daughter remains a keen cyclist, unkilled and unmaimed.

If your post from January is not a lurid fantasy about death (in fact the fantasised death of a child of the person your post is directed at) then I'm not sure what is.

The smiley means I think you're a topping chap really .


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## glenn forger (23 Aug 2013)

StuartG said:


> Is responding with 'Bum', Piffle etc rather than a reasoned response likely to engage and convince? Or will people be more likely respond with similar abuse?
> 
> If you ride with a similar attitude you are a poor cyclist. In fact a poor person. More worrying to me is that attitude is more likely to make you a dead person. Whose fault will that be?


 
Once again, these are attacking your argument. Your argument is piffle. Society is not to blame for those driver's ignorance of their employer's instructions. Describing your argument as piffle doesn't mean I'm more likely to die, it just means your argument is piffle. What are you going on about people getting killed for?


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## glenn forger (23 Aug 2013)

Boris Bajic said:


> I'm not sure where you get off on criticising people for posting_ 'lurid fantasies about death'_. sir Forger. Here's one you posted on 5 January this year in the Mobile Phones thread (post #47) after I mentioned I had a daughter who cycled:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

I asked if you would have a problem with drivers on mobiles if your daughter got killed. Explain to me how this is the same as using the word "piffle" means I'm likely to get killed.


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## glenn forger (23 Aug 2013)

StuartG said:


> Clearly we will continue to differ on whether this attitude is helpful to your cycling, family, career ... life. I wish you a good afternoon.
> (I'm really a petunia in case you were confused).


 

That's three times you've ducked the question.


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## StuartG (23 Aug 2013)

glenn forger said:


> Say it's society's fault. Then say another poster will soon be dead. Then run away.


Three statements - all demonstrably wrong. I'm afraid you appear to have read what you wanted to read - not what I wrote and certainly not what I meant. But if you want any clarification please ask. However my position is nuanced. If you don't do nuance it may not be a good use of our time.

Oh and insults don't worry me - I am a long time cyclist after all


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## akb (23 Aug 2013)

> If there had been a ped infront of him, I would have not only seen it from the other side of the bus (when I was behind him) and through the bus


 
Twaddle!

What if it was a child. A wheel chair user. A dog walker. I am almost certain you wouldnt have seen them, from behind / side of the bus. Unless you a secretly a member of the X-Men.


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## akb (23 Aug 2013)

Im defo going to be watching this confrontation on my iPhone during some point on my 50 minute drive home...


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## glenn forger (23 Aug 2013)

StuartG said:


> There is no requirement, worse still no encouragement, to know it beyond taking your test if you drive..


 
Yes there is, Matthew copied and pasted it from the Arriva website. You're squirming away from your earlier claims. That's dishonest.


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## glenn forger (23 Aug 2013)

StuartG said:


> Three statements - all demonstrably wrong. I


 
You are now denying you mentioned my death?


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## Moderators (23 Aug 2013)

@StuartG
@glenn forger

If you want to carry on arguing between yourselves take it to PM. Otherwise this thread will be locked.


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## StuartG (23 Aug 2013)

Moderators said:


> @StuartG
> @glenn forger
> 
> If you want to carry on arguing between yourselves take it to PM. Otherwise this thread will be locked.


 
No problem here. That discussion isn't going to go anywhere but down.


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## Boris Bajic (23 Aug 2013)

glenn forger said:


> I asked if you would have a problem with drivers on mobiles if your daughter got killed. Explain to me how this is the same as using the word "piffle" means I'm likely to get killed.


 
The post is there for all to see, in its entirity. It is also there for all to see in the original thread. It is there in full and I quote it above in full.

You do not ask me how I'd feel about anything. You make explicit and unelicited reference to the "*the closed casked funeral of his daughter, her face scraped off by a driver chatting on a mobile".*

It is a lurid fantasy of death. It is nothing else. This is what you are accusing others of in* this* thread. You don't just suggest the imagined death of my daughter (creepy and unsettling enough). You take the trouble to imagine and describe a closed-casket funeral after her face has been scraped off. One wonders what makes you think it OK to post this stark, unpleasant and personal image online.

You may defend your words. You may delete the post. You may even disappear up your own fundament in a puff of purple smoke.

But you cannot claim that the offensive post I quote earlier in this thread is anything but a _lurid fantasy of death_. A nasty, vindictive, personal one, too.

I'm not defending any other post by any other poster, just pointing out that one accusing others of posting_ 'lurid fantasies of death'_ may care to peep in their own slightly grubby closet before doing so.


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## glenn forger (23 Aug 2013)

You said you have no problem with drivers on mobiles. I asked if that would change if your daughter was killed by one.

Explain to me how this is the same as someone saying the word "piffle" makes them more likely to die.


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## glasgowcyclist (23 Aug 2013)

StuartG said:


> Thank you for asking.


 
Thanks for your reply, although I'm none the wiser as to why a smiley face would have been necessary.

GC


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## StuartG (23 Aug 2013)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Thanks for your reply, although I'm none the wiser as to why a smiley face would have been necessary.


I couldn't tell whether it was a throwaway remark or a serious claim. It was a clumsy way of checking in case it was the latter. But as Mr Paul requests - let's not get diverted.


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## Black Country Ste (23 Aug 2013)

I'm not going to bother reading half a dozen pages of people slagging off Matthew.

I wouldn't have passed the bus at the lights because I can't see if anything is passing in front of it. That's his only error. The driver's behaviour, in the punishment passes and assault and that of his colleagues are entirely their own doing. Matthew hasn't made anybody do anything: his own behaviour was exemplary.

Well handled, mate.


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## Cycling Dan (23 Aug 2013)

I think for the filtering section of the video, the light has changed green so on a technicality no one should be starting to cross although that's not always the case. The second bit I picked up on this that once Matthew reaches the back of the bus its starts to move so at that point I would argue its safe to conclude no one is passing unless the driver is intentionally trying to run a old slow granny over. I would in this case see no real issue in filtering here.
Secondly, once he passed the bus with the use of the rear view camera Matthew vastly out accelerated the bus so there was no longer a conflict. Also as a competent cyclist he shoulder checked to make sure. Had this been a car I personally wouldn't have filtered as a car would move off a lot quicker but that's not the case here.


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## jarlrmai (23 Aug 2013)

I would have judged the speed / acceleration of the vehicle, once I was alongside it and it started moving if I was vastly faster with momentum and able to do close to the speed limit I would keep going in my lane and move back in after a check, if it was clear the vehicle was going to out accelerate me I would maintained lane position and then dropped back behind it and then moved left after shoulder check signalling etc.

The bus driver seems to be objecting to a cyclist getting in-front of him, if Matt had been a car moving at the same speed and performing the same maneuver he would not haven even noticed most likely.


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## glasgowcyclist (23 Aug 2013)

Cycling Dan said:


> I think for the filtering section of the video. The light has changed green so on a technicality no one should be starting to cross although that's not always the case. The second bit I picked up on this that once Matthew reaches the back of the bus its starts to move so at that point I would argue its safe to conclude no one is passing unless the driver is intentionally trying to run and old slow granny over. I would in this case see no real issue in filtering here.


 
It's poor riding, in my view, for the following reasons:

He does not know that there isn't someone about to emerge from ahead of the bus. Some drivers go on green even if it means shaving the arse of someone still on his way across. Note also that the lead car in the opposing lane does not move off when the light changes. That could have indicated someone was indeed still crossing from Matthew's left.
He puts himself in a meat-in-the-sandwich situation where he is at great risk. The bus may move further out to the right to avoid something outwith Matthew's view, say, another cyclist. Opposing traffic is about to head his way and he'll have nowhere to go.
It's something he should review on his video and learn from.

GC


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## Cycling Dan (23 Aug 2013)

[QUOTE 2613649, member: 30090"]I've just seen the video, not looked at the other replies and will add the following:-

Apart from threatening the driver that he was going to lose his job I thought you was superb.

The overtake whilst not brilliant, I could see nothing majorly wrong with it and as you've shown from your rear view camera the driver did not have to brake or nothing like that and you clearly did not cut him up.

Him giving you the finger, threatening to slap you and telling you to **** poor is inexcusable.

The depot manager -  ******** is all I've got to say about him, very ignorant by the sounds of things and someone who clearly needs to go do his driver cpc and get some training about cyclists and where they are allowed to cycle.

I thought you was polite, knew what you was talking about and was to the point.

As for the whole 'but you started it with the overtake' and 'put the camera away' this is a professional driver who should know better ffs. Not to mention that they are in charge of a large vehicle.

Bravo young Sir.

p.s your legs going that fast were hypnotic.[/quote]

It was not the depot manager but another driver.


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## Matthew_T (23 Aug 2013)

[QUOTE 2613649, member: 30090"]

p.s your legs going that fast were hypnotic.[/quote]
I have tried to angle the camera down from my crotch as people were complaining. But still have it at an angle that can see people behind me.


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## Matthew_T (23 Aug 2013)

Cycling Dan said:


> It was not the depot manager but another driver.


The depot manager seemed concerned. With him not being in the office today, I will just have to wait for a reply. He has my unedited footage now and has said that he can get the footage from the bus which will VERY CLEARLY show the driver giving me the finger.
And if the driver turned the cameras off for some reason, that is a sackable offense.


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## MontyVeda (23 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> I have tried to angle the camera down from my crotch as people were complaining. But still have it at an angle that can see people behind me.


surely the seat post is a more logical place to mount it?


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## Gez73 (23 Aug 2013)

I can't believe we have 9 pages on this. I can only assume the OP would ride far better and react far more maturely to situations (like most of the rest of us), without the camera. Try it.


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## Davidsw8 (23 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> The depot manager seemed concerned. With him not being in the office today, I will just have to wait for a reply. He has my unedited footage now and has said that he can get the footage from the bus which will VERY CLEARLY show the driver giving me the finger.
> And if the driver turned the cameras off for some reason, that is a sackable offense.


 
Matthew

Having got home and watched the footage with sound on, I think you're cycling looked ok to me to be honest. Although I think the confrontation was unnecessary, I can kind of understand why you did it and I think you remained calm, clear and overall handled it very well.

It takes a person of good character to make that kind of stand and not be intimidated by all those people so I think you should be proud of yourself. I wish there were more like you around.

Besides that idiot of a bus driver, what really disgusted me was that other chap 'If I see you, I'm not giving you a car width', a) how damn stupid! he said that in response to being told he's being filmed and b) how dare he threaten you, I think that's worth reporting to the police in itself.

Anyway, well done mate and keep us posted with regards to any updates on this.


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## lukesdad (23 Aug 2013)

Gez73 said:


> I can't believe we have 9 pages on this. I can only assume the OP would ride far better and react far more maturely to situations (like most of the rest of us), without the camera. Try it.


 Oh I dont know, its kept me entertained.


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## akb (23 Aug 2013)

Watches the video with sound. Attitude of the two drivers you encountered was poor. No denying it. Dues to you for the education. Especially likely the bit when you pulled out the HC. 

However, I still stick to my previous point of MGIF attitude. Bit of a nothing incident escalated far more than it needed to. By all means, report it; to chase the driver down for a showdown is absurd if you ask me.


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## PK99 (23 Aug 2013)

Matthew,

You complain that the driver gave you the finger.

Why did he do that? What did he see you do that prompted him to do that?

Could it be that you called him an idiot by pointing at your head and then at him?

You knew you were pointing at a camera. what did he see? what did he know?

did you ever look up 'theory of mind' - something which those with Asperger's find difficult?

You initiated the confrontation by an unwise overtake on the zigzags at the pelican, you escalated it by the head pointing and then made it personal and overtly aggressive when you got in his face at the depot. Threatening his job, was, frankly, bloody stupid on your part.

One of these days you WILL find yourself getting in the face of someone whose preferred response is physical and violent. Some of us here will find that sad but not in any way a surprise.


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## MontyVeda (23 Aug 2013)

TBH, i don't think that is a good overtake... it's a pedestrian crossing and due to the bus's presence, you appear to steam on through with the assumption that no 'late comer' was making a last dash over the crossing... obviously there wasn't, but you had no way of knowing that. IMO, you'd have been better off hanging back.


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## Kbrook (23 Aug 2013)

What does " you are going to review" mean, seems like a daft thing to say, review by who? Please explain as I have no idea what you are on about.


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## 400bhp (23 Aug 2013)

FFS


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## Matthew_T (23 Aug 2013)

Kbrook said:


> What does " you are going to review" mean, seems like a daft thing to say, review by who? Please explain as I have no idea what you are on about.


I had the process that a driver goes through when a complaint has been reported explained to me.

The footage is reviewed. 
The incident is assessed in terms of worthiness to continue.
The driver is brought in for an interview (this is the review part).
A decision is made as to what the consequences/punishment should be if any. 
The information is relayed to the victim.
All this, as far as I know, is done by the depot manager or driver supervisor.


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## oldfatfool (23 Aug 2013)

Sack both the feckers, a definite threat by the second bloke to knock you off if he sees you again


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## Matthew_T (23 Aug 2013)

oldfatfool said:


> Sack both the feckers, a definite threat by the second bloke to knock you off if he sees you again


I am looking through my old vids on file to see if I have encountered him before.


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## Hip Priest (23 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> I am looking through my old vids on file to see if I have encountered him before.


 

Well, it is Friday night.


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## Gez73 (23 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> I am looking through my old vids on file to see if I have encountered him before.


 
I'm sure we would have heard if you had!


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## RussellZero (23 Aug 2013)

lukesdad said:


> Oh I dont know, its kept me entertained.



Yep better than the tripe on tv tonight


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## classic33 (23 Aug 2013)

RussellZero said:


> Yep better than the tripe on tv tonight


Why do you keep tripe on your TV?


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## RussellZero (23 Aug 2013)

classic33 said:


> Why do you keep tripe on your TV?



I don't like it cold, so thought id try it warmed up. Still didnt like it. Boring.


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## deptfordmarmoset (23 Aug 2013)

classic33 said:


> Why do you keep tripe on your TV?


 
That joke was truly offal.


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## classic33 (23 Aug 2013)

Do we nominate the drivers in the video http://www.bdoy.co.uk/winners/01.html ?


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## PaulSB (23 Aug 2013)

My advice to Matthew would be this:

Learn when it's safe to overtake
Put your camera in the cupboard
Don't escalate everyday situations to a major incident

If you find it necessary to carry the HC around with you I suggest you think very seriously about your approach to cycling. It's meant to be enjoyable. I passed my driving test at age 18, that's 41 years ago and haven't read the HC since. What are you trying to achieve? A crusade?

What I find amazing about this incident, thread and the Commuting section in general is that I simply don't recognise much of this in my cycling. Occasional close pass, every now and again a yob shouts at me to get on the cycle path ......... perhaps I should chase them down for a good row?

Lastly have a few beers


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## PK99 (23 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> I am looking through my old vids on file to see if I have encountered him before.


 

how sad?

how old are you?

why are you not out with your mates of the same age?


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## PK99 (23 Aug 2013)

[quote="PaulSB, post: 2614249, member: 331"

What I find amazing about this incident, thread and the Commuting section in general is that I simply don't recognise much of this in my cycling. Occasional close pass, every now and again a yob shouts at me to get on the cycle path ......... perhaps I should chase them down for a good row?[/quote]

me too.

Then I ride/walk/drive in central London and find myself dodging pillock cyclists more often then pillock drivers and recognise the self righteous crap that too many peddle here.


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## classic33 (23 Aug 2013)

PK99 said:


> how sad?
> 
> how old are you?
> 
> why are you not out with your mates of the same age?


If he were to do the same as people seem to think all teenagers do, drink, get drunk & end up throwing up, I'd say there'd be as many having a go at hin for doing that. He's in a no win situation


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## campbellab (24 Aug 2013)

PaulSB said:


> I passed my driving test at age 18, that's 41 years ago and haven't read the HC since.


 
But its that attitude that is part of the problem.


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## Joffey (24 Aug 2013)

Is the video up yet?


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## markharry66 (24 Aug 2013)

Pass nothing wrong with it. If your not there to judge what Matthew can see in front of him (and we never will be) from camera looked fine.
Matthew you have to learn to control your temper walk way or be less aggressive when talking to or confronting people. Personally I would not have bothered. Life is to short. On a daily commute I get cut up daily through London. Bus drivers, as a pro driver, that represents the company swearing,y confronting members of the public, arguing the toss with the public, shouting are all not acceptable. The represent the company. Driving standards are shocking. Personally if the company refuses to do anything about this I would head off to blogger create a blog. Use the video write some content and expose the fact that have no idea about road safety


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## PaulSB (24 Aug 2013)

campbellab said:


> But its that attitude that is part of the problem.



In all seriousness does anyone contributing to this thread know a driver who owns, let alone reads, the HC?

The problem is driving standards not whether or not one reads the HC on a regular basis. It won't change habits. Starting this thread and riding around with a copy of the HC in your saddlebag is indicative of someone hoping to make the most of a situation, having to be right and unable to appreciate this action may actually do more harm than good. 

The first rule of any manoeuvre for cyclist or driver should be hold back if you can't see. Matthew could not be 100% certain no one was on the crossing. He took a risk, a very poor one in my book. 

To strip this done to the bare bones what do we have?

A dangerous overtake for both cyclist and possible pedestrians. If Matthew had hit someone at 28mph, his stated speed I think, the result would have been very serious. I wonder if we would have a thread about that?

Neither the bus or the oncoming car started to move. The cyclist could not see properly, there could have been a small child, shorter than the level of the windscreen glass. The signs to slow and wait where there. Poor riding began the incident, correct riding would have avoided it. 

The camera tapping then gets the unacceptable but highly predictable reaction from the bus driver. 

Next the cyclist decides to escalate the situation to a far from necessary level by chasing down and confronting the driver for giving him the finger. Matthew's approach to the driver was always going to get the man's back up. The response is wrong but it is guaranteed to happen. If he felt really strongly it should be reported, confronting the man like that was never going to achieve any form of reasonable dialogue. We all know that if we are honest about it. 

Yesterday I drove from Newcastle to Carlisle on the A69. Beyond Hexham there are four safe opportunities to overtake until Carlisle. Traffic was 45-55 and bunching behind HGVs. 

A lunatic in a VW "transit" had been on my bumper for miles, he eventually overtook me on the approach to a bend on double white lines, when the traffic speed had dropped to perhaps 20 and forced his way into the gap. 

Did I chase him down? No. Did I take action to protect myself? Yes. I simply dropped back so that if the potential accident occurred I could stop. The VW driver then overtook 4 more vehicles, including a trailer, all at once on a double white line bend in a 30 limit forcing two other vehicles to move over for him. 

Correct and best action? Slow down and keep well back. Possible result of following and confronting? Broken teeth. Would it make the slightest difference to that driver!s future behaviour? No. 

No doubt taking no action makes me the problem. 

Why do these things only happen to camera users?


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## The Jogger (24 Aug 2013)

Excellent post PaulSB well thought out unlike the actions of all involved in this little incident. I haven't read all the comments on this thread but I'm guessing the driver runs the risk of discipline which could result in job loss and even the roof over his families head. For what hand bags at dawn and inflated ego's.


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## The Jogger (24 Aug 2013)

oldfatfool said:


> Sack both the feckers, a definite threat by the second bloke to knock you off if he sees you again



Your forum name is spot on..........


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## The Jogger (24 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> That was me. Everyday someone is on the twitter feed so I thought it would be wise just to let the head office know what is happening.



Twitter? More like twit. FFS get a life mate..........


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## ComedyPilot (24 Aug 2013)

I find some poster's treatment of Matthew to be frankly bullying. Moving to the OP I see it like this:

[Key - Matthew = MT, bus driver = BD, second bus driver = 2BD, 3rd clueless, opinionated, threatening, sunglasses-wearing in stupid position bus driver = 3CBDOTSWSP, the PCSO = The PCSO]

MT rides quickly - what's the hurry? (opinion/question)
MT approaches bus stopped at crossing.
MT 'anticipates' the green and guns it to get in front of bus - I wouldn't do it, but he would/did, and despite people's 'what if' comments nothing happened.
BD stops almost immediately at the bus stop, and MT in NO way impeded the bus, or caused the bus to brake/alter position to avoid a collision
MT cycles further
BD catches MT and (if MT's account for speed is true (no reason not to be)) the only way the bus could catch MT from a standing start in a 30 limit is to travel at MORE than 30 - Simply measure the time/distance from the bus stop to the passing position and it's a simple distance/time/speed calculation
BD passes MT into oncoming traffic on a single carriage way and the pass was close - no denying
MT passes BD again stuck in traffic
BD passes MT again
MT points at camera and the BD
BD flicks MT the bird and drives away.
MT rides (quickly) to the bus depot and seeks out the driver
BD threatens MT with a slap
MT asks 3CBDOTSWSP and 2BD if the depot manager is in and explains situation
3CBDOTSWSP demonstrates a stunning ability to be wrong, threatening and stupid all at the same time as holding a PSV license. ie he is licensed to drive our nearest and dearest.....
MT and 3CBDOTSWSP approach The PCSO and ask for confirmation of the HC on rule 163. The PCSO shrugs, and tries to pass it to the other PCSO.
MT meanwhile parks his bike and calmly retrieves a photocopy of rule 163 and points out 3CBDOTSWSP's error - classic, had me laughing
3CBDOTSWSP despite being a 'professional driver, in uniform, at work, clearly threatens MT on camera that if he saw MT (riding) he wouldn't give him a car door's width.

None of the above would have happened if MT didn't pass the BD in the first place. He did, but in no way caused the BD any inconvenience.
This escalated IMO due to the BD's close pass, speeding, rude finger gesture, threats when confronted, and 3CBDOTSWSP's total lack of HC knowledge and that threat - which I would want dealing with as a matter of priority.

People castigating Matthew on here should be farking ashamed of themselves. Agreed, MT's initial overtake was stupid, I wouldn't do it, and one would hope Matthew will learn from it, but everything else happened and escalated due to the actions of men older (wiser) than 'young' Matthew.

All Matthew did was confront their behaviour. Some posters on here seriously need to look at themselves and recalculate their personal values.


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## PaulSB (24 Aug 2013)

ComedyPilot said:


> MT 'anticipates' the green and guns it to get in front of bus - I wouldn't do it, but he would/did, and despite people's 'what if' comments nothing happened.


 


> BD passes MT into oncoming traffic on a single carriage way and the pass was close - no denying


 
Apologies for selectively quoting but I'm interested in this bit. We have both said we would not have carried out the overtake, for me I know it wasn't safe and I presume you feel the same? I, and others, have commented on the "what if" scenario, this is the anticipation EVERY road user should be employing - what if a child follows the ball which just bounced in the road? With Matthew's overtake "nothing happened" so we should not take this into consideration?

The bus driver made a close pass, I'v experienced far worse, when he should have been thinking "what if" the cyclist hits a pot hole? "Nothing happened" though - if we are going to ignore Matthew's overtake because nothing happened the same should be applied to the bus driver's close pass, to do otherwise is a double standard.

After all this discussion "nothing happened."

Or is the cyclist allowed a, IMO, dangerous manouevre and the bus driver not? I frequently get the impression this is the case.

As for bullying I would hope as a father of three young men I'm not guilty. However Matthew has chosen to put up a video in which he feels he is in the right. What the thread shows is not everyone agrees with him. There is a right and wrong way to respond to his posts but his age should not prevent people from commenting. We have to learn in life putting ourselves in the wrong situation can have serious consequences - by which I mean thinking it all through not the posting of the video. It's like not going to certain parts of town at night, if I get mugged it's not my fault but I could have avoided the situation.


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## ComedyPilot (24 Aug 2013)

Let's be clear on this, I am not condoning MT's initial overtake, but nothing happened. He did something I would not do. Like you, I wouldn't do it because of the 'what if' factor.

The BD's overtake DID something, it caused MT to fear for his safety, which in turn contributed to the ensuing escalation. The pass was close (at speed...30+?) into oncoming traffic, and on the zig-zag lines of a crossing (about 1:30 into the vid) - so something 'happened' - apart from MT only the oncoming drivers can comment on how close it was.

With respect I think you are using the 'nothing happened' phrase to show a collision didn't occur, where I am using it to show lots of poor driving, and possible offences did occur.

I do not condone MT's overtake for all the 'what if' reasons. But he did it and got away with it, although I would like to hope he has the sense to critique his riding and look back at this incident and perhaps learn from it? (eh, @Matthew_T)

I am in no way making blanket excuses for dangerous cycling, but just because a cyclist does a frankly stupid move it doesn't mean a professional bus driver carrying hundreds of old people and pregnant women and toddlers should use his faster/bigger bus to do the MGIF of cyclist. And to then lose his temper and flip the bird, and ask a video camera wearing cyclist if he wants a slap?

I am old school, and I was taught the phrase, "If someone jumped off a cliff, would you follow them?" - and it seems the BD wasn't taught this. Only he can explain his actions, but from the vid, I would say he let MT's actions affect his behaviour - not good for a bus driver?

Boot on the other foot time, if I were a bus driver, I would have seen MT coming alongside and doored him and anticipated him passing me, then let him go on his merry way. If I then caught up to him (by not speeding) I would then wait for a clear opportunity to safely pass - a total non-event.


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## oldfatfool (24 Aug 2013)

The Jogger said:


> Your forum name is spot on..........


 
I'm sorry?

As mentioned by others, Mat's pass is I agree foolhardy at best, pointing to his camera "could" be seen as a rude gesture by the BD and result in the "bird". Mat going to the depot and confronting the driver and threatening is job is antagonistic and again foolhardy, HOWEVER the 1st bus driver instead of apologising and saying ok mate 6 of one etc decided to threaten Mat with physical violence. The 2nd driver, who as in no way been confronted or accused of anything by Mat, proceeds to warn him not to ride on the road when there is a cycle lane, or (effectively) on his bus route. Both of these characters are in charge of a 30' long 4 tonne? killing machine on a public road, and you seem to think that is an ok state of affairs?

Now I agree that Mathew is not blameless in the way this as panned out, but the bus driver(s) really have overstepped the mark, and to continue being so stupid, after being made aware that the whole incident was being recorded, shows a severely reckless attitude, that I wouldn't have thought suitable for a bus driver?

It isn't so long ago that a bus driver was jailed for deliberately ramming a cyclist, should they have just let it go?
Edit:
Having gone back and read Pauls post that you mention, I agree wholeheartedly with his post with two inferred exceptions, white van man is not a uniformed server of the public, and second being passed close and or dangerously whilst driving a car, whilst not fun, is not comparable to the same on a cycle.

Do I honestly believe they should both be sacked, probably not, but they do need a sharp shock to make them concentrate and think about their actions. If they continue in the trend they are in, (that Mat may have started), then their attitude to cyclists will only get worse and it could be you or me that bares the brunt of their final outrage.


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## RWright (24 Aug 2013)

Lose the horn and work on improving your speed and endurance so none of this stuff happens in the first place.


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## Andrew_Culture (24 Aug 2013)

I've not got time to read 11 pages, can someone summarise for me?


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## lukesdad (24 Aug 2013)

Andrew_Culture said:


> I've not got time to read 11 pages, can someone summarise for me?


 Mathew's been causing carnage again, the cammers think he's a hero, the rest think he's a nobber.


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## Andrew_Culture (24 Aug 2013)

lukesdad said:


> Mathew's been causing carnage again, the cammers think he's a hero, the rest think he's a nobber.



Nicely done. 

I did lose a bit of tea when accused of not knowing the Highway Code Matt produced a copy


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## ComedyPilot (24 Aug 2013)

lukesdad said:


> Mathew's been *filming bus drivers* causing carnage again, the cammers reasonable people think he's a hero admirable in his actions, the rest (older drivers?) think he's a nobber.


FTFY


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## lukesdad (24 Aug 2013)

[edit] ^ the nobbers think he s a hero


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## oldfatfool (24 Aug 2013)

To be fair I think everyone thinks Mathew is a nobber to some degree, the difference appears to be wether folks are bus driver fanboys or not.


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## lukesdad (24 Aug 2013)

Bus driver fanboys


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## Kbrook (24 Aug 2013)

Nobody comes out of this well. Matthew if the bus driver loses his job, what will be your view of that ? Justified or not ? 

My opinion is he has been a complete tool, mainly for threatening you with a slap. But his driving was far from the worst we have seen and to lose his job a step too far IMO.

Why don't you offer to meet the driver, sit down like men and talk it through. Have a brew, shake hands and move on. That to me is the best way forward. Maybe ask the depot manager to brief all the drivers re the various issues raised. You are effectively in control of what might happen here, I would urge you to do something to be proud of.

Anybody agree/disagree?


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## ComedyPilot (24 Aug 2013)

Saddo that I am, @Matthew_T shoulder checks at 1:28 and sees the bus passing the bus stop adjacent to Brynheddydd Road. The bus then clearly passes MT at the crossing near garford road 4 seconds later. A simple calculation means the bus was travelling (in a 30 limit, with hundreds of old people and pregnant women on board) at an average of 44mph.


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## sickboyblue (24 Aug 2013)

Kbrook.. If he gets sacked, tough.. who knows how many times he's threatened people before? He's a professional driver and should not act like this. If I were to act that way in work I'd expect to be reprimanded for it.


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## The Jogger (24 Aug 2013)

Having viewed the whole vid I think there is wrong on both sides. Also with attitude after the event there is definitely wrong on both sides. I think the resolution to this would be some form of mediation, certainly not someone losing their job over it which you Matthew seem quite confident about, has that got something to do with you 'knowing the depot manager'. Really, you should really think of the consequences of this and the knock on effect it could have on the drivers family.

And please don't come back with the obvious.


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## Kbrook (24 Aug 2013)

Sickboyblue.. Very compassionate, it may on the other hand be the first time he has ever done this. You never made a mistake, done something really stupid at work, would you expect to be fired for it? I have, several times, no one found out so I got away with it. Hope if I had been caught I wouldn't have lost me job.

Must be great not to be human and never make mistakes.


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## lukesdad (24 Aug 2013)

ComedyPilot said:


> Saddo that I am, @Matthew_T shoulder checks at 1:28 and sees the bus passing the bus stop adjacent to Brynheddydd Road. The bus then clearly passes MT at the crossing near garford road 4 seconds later. A simple calculation means the bus was travelling (in a 30 limit, with hundreds of old people and pregnant women on board) at an average of 44mph.


 Hundreds  I think you might be subject to over exageration, shall we split the difference and call it 22mph


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## sickboyblue (24 Aug 2013)

Threatening someone isn't making a mistake though is it? It's purely being a tw@t! And yes, I have made mistakes and been bollocked for them BUT if I threatened a member if the public and were reported for it I would expect to lose my job.


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## lukesdad (24 Aug 2013)

" mathew antagonised" got it in one MP


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## AndyRM (24 Aug 2013)

Jeezo. I'm not quite sure why I read through 11 pages of mostly guff, but it's early and I've nothing else to do on the throne.

Mr. T, you could have avoided all that. It was a minor incident that didn't need to be escalated IMO. 

There's a saying about water and the backs of ducks which I think could be applied. 

Keep the camera going if you want to, but don't upload trivialities. It cheapens any argument against bad driving, particularly if some of your cycling was questionable.

In summary, enjoy your cycling, and try to let the small things slide.


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## oldfatfool (24 Aug 2013)

Having posted earlier 'sack the pair' I agree that it would be extreme, in no little part because of the knock on effect it would have on their families. They do however as I later posted require a short sharp shock, being forced to cycle themselves for a couple of hours around their own town wouldn't be a bad bit of training for all bus drivers to have to go through.


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## lukesdad (24 Aug 2013)

As long as it isn't under Mathews supervision.


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## ComedyPilot (24 Aug 2013)

And what's with all the bleating about a driver losing his job, and the possible hardship caused to his family?

Professional drivers know that their license is their livelihood, and 'should' drive accordingly to maintain that livelihood, as should millions of drivers who 'need' their vehicles for commuting/shopping.

What we have ingrained in (some?) drivers now (possibly millions) is a mindset that they shouldn't be made to be responsible for bad driving (after the fact) as this will cause them hardship, whereas they should be driving to a safe standard so as not to be punished in the first place.

So, rather than the deterrant that it is for reasonable people, it is being used as a mitigating factor for careless/dangerous drivers to carry on regardless.


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## lukesdad (24 Aug 2013)

His wife and family probably left years ago, so, in balance fire him  I don't use busses anyway.


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## Poacher (24 Aug 2013)

PaulSB said:


> In all seriousness does anyone contributing to this thread know a driver who owns, let alone reads, the HC?
> 
> The problem is driving standards not whether or not one reads the HC on a regular basis. It won't change habits. Starting this thread and *riding * *around with* *a copy of the HC in your saddlebag* *is indicative of someone hoping* *to make the most of a situation*, having to be right and unable to appreciate this action may actually do more harm than good.


 
After several incidents, I decided to carry a copy of the HC on my commute. When a spittle-flecked moron has forced you into the kerb at 20 mph, enraged that you weren't using a cr@p cycle farcility by the side of a very wide road, then got out to try and punch you senseless, just quoting the HC at them doesn't cut it. Thrusting the relevant page of the HC (not a download or photocopy, as they won't believe it) into their bloated red face generally quietens them down rapidly.

If you haven't bothered to read the HC since passing your test 41 years ago, I strongly suggest that you do, as much has changed in that time - ASLs for a start. Most of the problem drivers I encounter seem to be proud of the fact they "know" the HC and therefore have no need ever to read it.


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## Davidsw8 (24 Aug 2013)

oldfatfool said:


> To be fair I think everyone thinks Mathew is a nobber to some degree, the difference appears to be wether folks are bus driver fanboys or not.


 
I don't...


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## lukesdad (24 Aug 2013)

Davidsw8 said:


> I don't...


Think ?


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## The Jogger (24 Aug 2013)

[e="ComedyPilot, post: 2614632, member: 2262"]And what's with all the bleating about a driver losing his job, and the possible hardship caused to his family?

Professional drivers know that their license is their livelihood, and 'should' drive accordingly to maintain that livelihood, as should millions of drivers who 'need' their vehicles for commuting/shopping.

What we have ingrained in (some?) drivers now (possibly millions) is a mindset that they shouldn't be made to be responsible for bad driving (after the fact) as this will cause them hardship, whereas they should be driving to a safe standard so as not to be punished in the first place.

So, rather than the deterrant that it is for reasonable people, it is being used as a mitigating factor for careless/dangerous drivers to carry on regardless.[/quote]

Sack him and he could go out get in his car for years with some sort of vendetta against cyclists. Retraining would be a benefit all round.....

Surely. ........


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## Andrew_Culture (24 Aug 2013)

I'm sure someone has already mentioned this, but can I say that 99.9999999% of bus drivers I share Tarmac space with on my travels are AWESOME and seem to have a very good understanding of how not to flatten cyclists. 

I still might watch Matt's video.


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## sickboyblue (24 Aug 2013)

oldfatfool said:


> To be fair I think everyone thinks Mathew is a nobber to some degree, the difference appears to be wether folks are bus driver fanboys or not.


I don't.. he's a young lad with the balls to stand up for himself.


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## deptfordmarmoset (24 Aug 2013)

Davidsw8 said:


> I don't...


 
Me neither but I _do_ sense there's evidence of a dangerous and pig ignorant bus drivers' sub-culture at the depot.


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## lukesdad (24 Aug 2013)

[QUOTE 2614646, member: 45"]Nor me.[/quote]


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## lukesdad (24 Aug 2013)

Shall we have a poll ?


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## The Jogger (24 Aug 2013)

Young and over zealous.


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## Davidsw8 (24 Aug 2013)

lukesdad said:


> Think ?


 
For clarity  I don't believe Matthew to be a 'nobber'.


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## The Jogger (24 Aug 2013)

lukesdad said:


> Shall we have a poll ?



Go on then........now you're on a roll.


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## lukesdad (24 Aug 2013)

The Jogger said:


> Young and over zealous.


I was only going to give 2 choices


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## PK99 (24 Aug 2013)

PaulSB said:


> Apologies for selectively quoting but I'm interested in this bit. We have both said we would not have carried out the overtake, for me I know it wasn't safe and I presume you feel the same? I, and others, have commented on the "what if" scenario, this is the anticipation EVERY road user should be employing - what if a child follows the ball which just bounced in the road? With Matthew's overtake "nothing happened" so we should not take this into consideration?
> 
> The bus driver made a close pass, I'v experienced far worse, when he should have been thinking "what if" the cyclist hits a pot hole? "Nothing happened" though - if we are going to ignore Matthew's overtake because nothing happened the same should be applied to the bus driver's close pass, to do otherwise is a double standard.
> 
> ...


 


I detect a whiff of Animal Farm like hypocrisy in such arguments: Two wheels good! Four wheels bad!

If "Nothing happened" is a defence for Matthew, it is also a defence for the driver.


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## lukesdad (24 Aug 2013)

" Nothing happened" is not a defence, so the wife says.


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## PK99 (24 Aug 2013)

sickboyblue said:


> I don't.. he's a young lad with the balls to stand up for himself.


 

he is a young lad with a condition that makes it very difficult for him to interpret other peoples' actions and behaviour or the impact of his behaviour on others


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## Matthew_T (24 Aug 2013)

There is normally a 50-50 on my threads when it comes to support vs complainants. I know the overtake wasnt the wisest of things and people on here have brought it to my attention.
However, that did not cause the incident. It was the close pass which the driver seemed acceptable because in his mind "You shoulder checked and cut me off". Giving me the finger, threatening to hit me, and telling me to piss off is why I reported him. The close pass I would have just let go.

In response to should the driver get sacked?
In my opinion, it isnt for me to say. I dont know what Arriva's driver policy is.
However, immediate sack without attempting to rectify the situation is a little bit silly. The driver needs his head checking, which will probably be sorted by a stern word by him employer. Seeing as all three drivers believed that cyclists shouldnt be on the roads, Arriva seriously need to look at what they are training these guys. Because I wont have irate bus drivers with plain WRONG views behind me that have a decision racing through their feet.
The drivers should not be letting their feelings get the better of them.
The driver in question was at the end of his shift. Arriva drivers are only allowed 2/3 hour shifts. I dont know if this guy had a problem in the morning or the day before, but he shouldnt be bringing it into work. He is a representative of the company.

Should he be sacked? No. All three should try to be retrained in terms of vulnerable road users. Then if nothing improves, Arriva can deal with it their own way.


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## Matthew_T (24 Aug 2013)

PK99 said:


> he is a young lad with a condition that makes it very difficult for him to interpret other peoples' actions and behaviour or the impact of his behaviour on others


And thats a problem?
I can deal with things as I please. I did not at any point cause the driver to swear or threaten me. I approached him in a passive-aggresive tone and did not give him any abuse. What I said might have been through anger but I still gave him room to apologise.
If the driver had apologised and explained that he made a mistake, I probably wouldnt have reported it.

Bully's on the road will not get away with their dangerous behaviour.


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## lukesdad (24 Aug 2013)

Quite Mathew,unfortunately there is no compulsory procedure to retrain you on how to ride your bike.


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## PaulSB (24 Aug 2013)

Poacher said:


> After several incidents, I decided to carry a copy of the HC on my commute. When a spittle-flecked moron has forced you into the kerb at 20 mph, enraged that you weren't using a cr@p cycle farcility by the side of a very wide road, then got out to try and punch you senseless, just quoting the HC at them doesn't cut it. Thrusting the relevant page of the HC (not a download or photocopy, as they won't believe it) into their bloated red face generally quietens them down rapidly.
> 
> If you haven't bothered to read the HC since passing your test 41 years ago, I strongly suggest that you do, as much has changed in that time - ASLs for a start. Most of the problem drivers I encounter seem to be proud of the fact they "know" the HC and therefore have no need ever to read it.



I'm not sure I'd be worrying about thrusting a copy of the HC at someone who is trying to punch me senseless. I don't experience or recognise these situations as they don't happen where I live. Matthew lives in a quiet holiday resort, I can understand things may be very different in a busy city, but carrying around a copy of the HC in Rhyll or Chorley?

With regard to reading the HC. I'm not a problem driver nor would I claim extensive knowledge of the HC. Knowing your rights or the HC does not protect you. Driving and cycling in a careful, considerate manner at an appropriate speed while anticipating events around one does. 

Cycling in a considerate manner is crucial to us all. I always acknowledge consideration from motorists and avoid riding which might antagonise - MGIF filtering for example. If drivers see us behaving in such a manner they will learn the vast majority of cyclists are responsible and we gain respect. Encouraging respect through one's actions is positive, waving the HC will not necessarily have the desired effects.

If a driver is a nobber it's likely he always will be.


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## Maylian (24 Aug 2013)

PK99 said:


> he is a young lad with a condition that makes it very difficult for him to interpret other peoples' actions and behaviour or the impact of his behaviour on others


 

Like a lot of other people have said, personally it doesn't appear to be that close. I get closer most mornings on route to work by HGV and car transporters which to me are more worrying than a bus (to me).

Had it been me if he had flicked me the bird I would have uttered a few expletives and probably left it there, going in all guns blazing saying that he's losing his job for it is only going to make someone immediately defensive and you can't expect much more than to be threatened. If someone genuinely thinks they're going to lose their job what else do they have to lose than the immediate satisfaction of hitting their "aggressor"? 

Like most others have said Mr. T you seem to look for trouble judging by the few other video's of yours I've watched and I think unless you learn to let things go then you might come a cropper one of these days. It is admirable that you don't let people boss you around and you'll defend yourself but you need to pick your fights. I used to be quite aggressive in the "defense" of my "rights", all it got me was a few grey hairs and wound up for nothing, I never even got a good fight out of it!


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## PK99 (24 Aug 2013)

> PK99 said: ↑
> _he is a young lad with a condition that makes it very difficult for him to interpret other peoples' actions and behaviour or the impact of his behaviour on others_​


 



Matthew_T said:


> And thats a problem?
> I can deal with things as I please. I did not at any point cause the driver to swear or threaten me. I approached him in a passive-aggresive tone and did not give him any abuse. What I said might have been through anger but I still gave him room to apologise.
> If the driver had apologised and explained that he made a mistake, I probably wouldnt have reported it.
> 
> Bully's on the road will not get away with their dangerous behaviour.


 
Yes it is a problem.

As I asked earlier, what do you think the driver might have thought you meant by your head pointing?

..........................
*Abstract*

Individuals with autism spectrum disorders have deficits in communication, social interactions, and emotional regulation and exhibit repetitive behaviors. *These individuals can become very reactive to their environment and at times may engage in emotional outbursts*. The social deficits seen in autism spectrum disorders are in part caused by the *difficulty these individuals have with modulating their own anger and interpreting their own emotions and those of people around them.* Individuals with autism spectrum disorders tend to learn and process visual information more effectively than auditory information. Thus, visual supports can help individuals with autism spectrum disorders process information more effectively. This article discusses the use of one particular visual support, an “emotions thermometer,” in helping instruct individuals with autism spectrum disorders on recognizing and modulating their own emotions. The article also discusses anger management techniques that can be utilized once individuals have begun to recognize more subtle signs of irritability within themselves.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2945855/

*in addition, individuals with Asperger's disorder often exhibit a very low frustration tolerance*, an inability to modulate their own emotions, and difficulty interpreting the emotions of those around them. For neurotypical individuals, gestures, facial expression, voice tone, posture, and eye contact are all used to communicate the affect of the verbal content during communication. While individuals with Asperger's disorder may correctly interpret one of these cues, they may have extreme difficulty when attempting to combine all of the cues to interpret the overall affective meaning of the communication.

..
*Individuals with high-functioning ASDs also exhibit difficulty modulating their anger, which may lead to further difficulties in their social interactions.* Because they have difficulty interpreting their own subtle changes in emotion, they are often only able to describe emotional extremes.

and
http://www.autism.org.uk/working-wi...riers-to-learning/behaviour-and-bullying.aspx


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## oldfatfool (24 Aug 2013)

Mathew wether you are in the right or not, riding up to someone and telling them they will be sacked when you have finished with them is not a good opening gambit to getting an apology, especially when you are already aware that the person in question as a problem with you. You might have been better placed with an "excuse me I was rather intimidated by your driving, and would appreciate an apology" not that I (as previously stated) condone the pair of drivers actions in any way.

You know and accept from previous threads that you do need to think a bit more before doing/ saying things and though you think you may have made a calculated decision on how to act in this situation imo you where probably wound up and on a mission. Don't get me wrong I can be just as bad but it won't help when you come across that 1 in 1,000 that physically actually carry out a threat.


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## Matthew_T (24 Aug 2013)

PK99 said:


> ..........................
> *Abstract*


So that permits the driver to speak to me like shoot? Who was he to know that I didnt have any disabilities? I could have had a disability which forces me to assault people. Who was he to know that?

My disability in this case is irrelevant. Seeing a 'professional' bus driver give me the finger would have made me confront him either way.


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## lukesdad (24 Aug 2013)

but that is your problem mathew seeing someone giving you the finger makes you want to confront them.


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## BimblingBee (24 Aug 2013)

I wonder if Matthew_T considers himself to be a 'professional rider'? It seems to me that if you are going to video your exploits and highlight poor driving by others regardless of their profession then your own riding must be exemplary. 

Would you have followed a car driver to a place of work/home to give them your two pennies worth? I somehow doubt it. Why? Well you probably knew that whilst you may get into a verbal argument the actual likelihood of physical violence with a uniformed bus driver at a main bus station is incredibly small but any argument would certainly make for good (in your view) YouTube footage that would increase your online fame/notoriety. This is highlighted (in my view) that despite living a stones-throw from excellent riding in rural areas away from sources of self induced road rage you insist on revisiting the same areas to encounter cars/buses etc.

As someone else has said you are on dangerous ground and as you get older you will loose the benefit of been viewed as a spotty teenager with a chip on their shoulder to an adult viewed as fair game in a physical fight.

Good luck.


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## PK99 (24 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> And thats a problem?
> I can deal with things as I please._ I did not at any point cause the driver to swear or threaten me_. *I approached him in a passive-aggresive tone* and did not give him any abuse. .


 
_Again : how do you think the driver might have interpreted your head pointing?_

plus: do you understand the meaning of *passive aggressive?*

*Passive-aggressive behavior* is behavior that expresses aggression in an indirect, passive way. This includes procrastination, hostile jokes, stubbornness, resentment, sullenness, or deliberate/repeated failure to accomplish requested tasks for which one is (often explicitly) responsible.

and

*Passive aggressive* behaviour takes many forms but can generally be described as a non-verbal aggression that manifests in negative behavior. It *is where you are angry with someone but do not or cannot tell them.* Instead of communicating honestly when you feel upset, annoyed, irritated or disappointed you may instead bottle the feelings up, shut off verbally, give angry looks, make obvious changes in behaviour, be obstructive, sulky or put up a stone wall.
http://www.counselling-directory.org.uk/counsellor-articles/what-is-passive-aggressive-behaviour


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## Kbrook (24 Aug 2013)

Bimbling bee , I agree entirely. He was after a safe confrontation, would he have gone to Mr 18stone, driving a Ford Focus ST, on a council estate with sofa in the garden, with Kylie Jake and Britney smoking fags outside, house.... No he wouldn't. 

Any you are also right about where he rides also.


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## The Jogger (24 Aug 2013)

Matth said:


> So that permits the driver to speak to me like s***? Who was he to know that I didnt have any disabilities? I could have had a disability which forces me to assault people. Who was he to know that?
> 
> My disability in this case is irrelevant. Seeing a 'professional' bus driver give me the finger would have made me confront him either way.



He might of thought you were giving him the finger when you pointed at your headcam and retaliated.


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## RWright (24 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> And thats a problem?
> I can deal with things as I please. I did not at any point cause the driver to swear or threaten me..


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## cd365 (24 Aug 2013)

lukesdad said:


> but that is your problem mathew seeing someone giving you the finger makes you want to confront them.


There are a lot of people who would confront someone if they are given the bird, it is not just Matthew's problem.

There are a lot of internet bullys on this forum who seem to pick on Matthew no matter what he posts, I for one do not know how he puts up with it and continues to stick with CycleChat. OK his manouver past the bus wasn't the best but does that give the bus driver the right to do what he did? Matthew is quite prepared to stick up for himself and go to someone's boss and complain, if more people did it there might be a massive shift in these so called proffesional/commercial drivers attitude to other road users. If I was the boss of these bus drivers I would give them a final written warning and make sure they receive retraining and be prepared to test them on their Highway Code knowledge.

It is not aspergers that is Matthews problem, it is the fact he is a teenage boy. All he needs to learn is who and when to speak to people when complaining, that will come with age. Matthew is passionate about cycling and wants to educate drivers that cyclists are vulnerable road users. I was a lot more dangerous as a cyclist at his age than he is, his cycling judgement will get better and does appear to be.

I ask all of you internet bullys to have a good think before posting or you could have a Hannah Smith on your conscience.


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## MontyVeda (24 Aug 2013)

BimblingBee said:


> I.... despite living a stones-throw from excellent riding in rural areas away from sources of self induced road rage *you insist on revisiting the same areas to encounter cars/buses etc.*
> 
> ....


 
maybe that's simply 'riding home'


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## RWright (24 Aug 2013)

Matthew, why did you pass the bus the second time if you felt he was endangering your life? Something about that seems strange to me, why would you put yourself in that situation twice?

I like your videos but I think you are in the wrong on this one. The horn, the pointing at your helmet cam, driver could have thought you were giving him the finger. You approach him sounding like an whiny 8 year old asking him if he understands the consequences of his actions and you have him on video. WTF did you expect him to do? I really think you need to step back and listen to yourself on the video. What you are doing seems like bad mojo to me. Be careful out there and concentrate on what you are doing.


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## Kbrook (24 Aug 2013)

Hannah smith... Get real, no one is telling Matthew T to top himself. We are pointing out that he is not blameless and he needs to think about his behaviour before he ends in the same place as poor Hannah. And your comment is very insulting to all those who have pointed out the possible consequences of his actions.


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## ClichéGuevara (24 Aug 2013)

The overtake at the crossing's a bit of a red herring really, Matthew would have passed the bus at the bus stop anyway.

Isn't the bigger issue here the poor road layout? The bus driver over took on chevrons and across a right turn arrow, but to be fair, if he hadn't he'd have been sat there for the duration. There looked to be enough room to make the road 3' wider, which would leave space for all.


Oh, and I agree with a few others, there seems to be a few locals with the pitchforks and flaming torches out for Matthew, who for a youngster is handling the abuse better and more maturely than I would.


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## The Jogger (24 Aug 2013)

[QUOTE 2614790, member: 30090"]Driving a vehicle in a reckless manner and threatening someone ain't handbags at dawn and inflated ego's.[/quote]

Viewing the video the driving wasn't that bad and as for the cycling that wasn't exactly perfect.


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## The Jogger (24 Aug 2013)

ClichéGuevara said:


> Oh, and I agree with a few others, there seems to be a few locals with the pitchforks and flaming torches out for Matthew, who for a youngster is handling the abuse better and more maturely than I would.


 
Most people are disagreeing with his actions are not carrying pitchforks or are abusive.


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## Hip Priest (24 Aug 2013)

ClichéGuevara said:


> Oh, and I agree with a few others, there seems to be a few locals with the pitchforks and flaming torches out for Matthew, who for a youngster is handling the abuse better and more maturely than I would.


 

Bit of a straw man that. 

Everyone has Matt's best interests at heart, whether they approve of his actions or not. I see no bullying, flaming or abuse, just criticism.


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## Boris Bajic (24 Aug 2013)

cd365 said:


> There are a lot of people who would confront someone if they are given the bird, it is not just Matthew's problem.
> 
> *There are a lot of internet bullys on this forum* who seem to pick on Matthew no matter what he posts,
> 
> ...


 
I think this is a valid criticism in many ways. I imagine also that I am one of those bullies to whom you refer.

Like you, I rode a good deal more dangerously as a teen than he does (and drove and rode my motorcycle more dangerously). I was banned before I was old enough to drive and it doesn't get much more stupid and reckless than that. I was a complete arse most of the time and was frequently reminded of it. But...

I did not film myself being an arse. Matthew films himself, arse or otherwise.

I did not seek confrontation. Across several videos over several months, Matthew seems to.

I did not ramp up and up and up a situation that might have been dealt with by a smile or a look or a shrug. Matthew seems to.

I did not post tapes of my derring-do online (OK, there was no 'online') and ask for comment. Matthew does. And he gets it.

Some is supportive (I think wrongly) and some not. I may be very wrong. I may be right. It's the Internet and it doesn't matter.

I know little, but I know this: I've been cycling quite high mileages for most of the forty-plus years I've cycled. I've carried all of my children on kiddie seats and two of them on a tag-along. I've cycled in many, many countries. I have three teen or young-adult children who've got the cycling bug and ride whenever they can. One races too, which I never did but it makes me smile.

In all that time, in all those decades and all those nasty moments when I've tried to move just after a crash or peeled a dressing off a skinned arm... I haven't had a* tenth* the number of confrontations, rows, abusive confrontations and generally spiky experiences that our young Hero of Righteous Road-Use has seen, filmed and put on line in a few, short months.

I have never boasted about having a taxi driver sacked. It is alarming.

This is a young man (boy) who seems to think it is his place to seek confrontation and to shape a scary, big world into absolute shades of right and wrong. To many, many members of these pages his behaviour is immature, egotistical and at some levels deeply troubling.

I am in no doubt he will continue and am in no doubt he will be supported by others on these pages. 

I think he may get to thirty and wish (more than he's ever wished anything in his life) that the whole Internet could be deleted. And most of all his absurd and inflammatory tapes of real and imagined traffic offences on the mean streets of Rhyl.


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## Hip Priest (24 Aug 2013)

ClichéGuevara said:


> The overtake at the crossing's a bit of a red herring really, Matthew would have passed the bus at the bus stop anyway.


 
That's the whole point.

There was no need for Matthew to attempt a risky overtake at the pelican crossing, because he would've passed the bus anyway. Foresight.


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## cd365 (24 Aug 2013)

Kbrook said:


> Hannah smith... Get real, no one is telling Matthew T to top himself. We are pointing out that he is not blameless and he needs to think about his behaviour before he ends in the same place as poor Hannah. And your comment is very insulting to all those who have pointed out the possible consequences of his actions.


It's good to know you think there are different levels of internet bullying, to me bullying is bullying no matter the wording.
If you are insulted then maybe you think you are one of these bullys and will think about your words next time.


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## Hip Priest (24 Aug 2013)

cd365 said:


> I ask all of you internet bullys to have a good think before posting or you could have a Hannah Smith on your conscience.


 

What an absolutely horrible thing to say.

The abuse dished out to that poor girl was very real, and incredibly nasty. By comparing it with the criticism of Matt on here, you insult not only several Cycle Chat members, but also the family of Hannah Smith. I hope you're proud of yourself.


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## deptfordmarmoset (24 Aug 2013)

If the net result of this is that the drivers get a thorough retraining, or are made to resit the theory part of the driving test, or are compelled to do bikeability courses, and it results in an satisfactory level of driving, then Matthew has done the whole of the area a very good turn.


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## cd365 (24 Aug 2013)

Boris Bajic said:


> I think this is a valid criticism in many ways. I imagine also that I am one of those bullies to whom you refer.
> 
> I think he may get to thirty and wish (more than he's ever wished anything in his life) that the whole Internet could be deleted.


 
I was pointing no fingers, just making an observation.

This internet age is a terrible and wonderful thing for today's youth.


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## cd365 (24 Aug 2013)

Hip Priest said:


> What an absolutely horrible thing to say.
> 
> The abuse dished out to that poor girl was very real, and incredibly nasty. By comparing it with the criticism of Matt on here, you insult not only several Cycle Chat members, but also the family of Hannah Smith. I hope you're proud of yourself.


Bullying is bullying and I'm sure the family of Hannah Smith want all forms of internet bullying to stop, as do all the parents of children who have been affected by bullying.


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## Hip Priest (24 Aug 2013)

cd365 said:


> Bullying is bullying and I'm sure the family of Hannah Smith want all forms of internet bullying to stop, as do all the parents of children who have been affected by bullying.


 

But there is no bullying on this thread. There is support and there is criticism. I've had plenty of criticism myself on here, and whilst nobody enjoys being criticised, it certainly wasn't bullying.


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## The Jogger (24 Aug 2013)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> If the net result of this is that the drivers get a thorough retraining, or are made to resit the theory part of the driving test, or are compelled to do bikeability courses, and it results in an satisfactory level of driving, then Matthew has done the whole of the area a very good turn.


 

And if it results in the sack as Matthew mentioned?


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## The Jogger (24 Aug 2013)

cd365 said:


> Bullying is bullying and I'm sure the family of Hannah Smith want all forms of internet bullying to stop, as do all the parents of children who have been affected by bullying.


 
Listen there is a big difference to disagreeing with someone's actions and bullying. Nearly everyone on here is mature enough to realise that.


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## PK99 (24 Aug 2013)

cd365 said:


> I ask all of you internet bullys to have a good think before posting or you could have a Hannah Smith on your conscience.


 


if you think the comments here a bullying, you have led a very sheltered existence.

The critical comments are explicitly made with Matts best interests at heart.

A few years ago I was close passed and given the finger by a VW car carrying trade plates. I knew where he was heading - VW showroom a coupe of hundred yards round the corner. I rode there, went to reception and asked to see the most senior manager on site. When I was met with some hesitation/reluctance I asked if they would prefer me to make my complaint about their driver to the Manager or to the Police. A polite conversation with the manager ensued and the diver was called over and given a mild but public dressing down.

What do you think would be the best advice to Matt?

"Go on son!, You keep on doing what you are doing and stick up for yourself"

or to follow the pattern of behaviour I used?


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## cd365 (24 Aug 2013)

Hip Priest said:


> But there is no bullying on this thread. There is support and there is criticism. I've had plenty of criticism myself on here, and whilst nobody enjoys being criticised, it certainly wasn't bullying.


I perceive it to be bullying and I don't think I am the only one who sees it that way and I am not talking about just this thread.

What about the having a poll to see if he is a nobber or not? Acceptible? Not in my eyes.


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## cd365 (24 Aug 2013)

PK99 said:


> if you think the comments here a bullying, you have led a very sheltered existence.
> 
> The critical comments are explicitly made with Matts best interests at heart.
> 
> ...


My existence has been far from sheltered.

How old was you when you did this? Like I said earlier Matthew will learn when and who to speak to.


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## deptfordmarmoset (24 Aug 2013)

The Jogger said:


> And if it results in the sack as Matthew mentioned?


 
That wouldn't be the best outcome but if he's contravened company rules and it's a dismissal contravention, then it wasn't Matthew who made him do it.


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## The Jogger (24 Aug 2013)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> That wouldn't be the best outcome but if he's contravened company rules and it's a dismissal contravention, then it wasn't Matthew who made him do it.


 
I hear what you are saying but isn't it a case of this whole thing getting out of all proportion. How many of us have experienced this on our commute and just got on with it.


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## PK99 (24 Aug 2013)

cd365 said:


> M
> How old was you when you did this? Like I said earlier Matthew will learn when and who to speak to.


 
and will learn from the constructive criticism he requested in his original post


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## Spinney (24 Aug 2013)

The Jogger said:


> I hear what you are saying but isn't it a case of this whole thing getting out of all proportion. How many of us have experienced this on our commute and just got on with it.


 
And how might general driving behaviour improve if more people were confronted with the error of their ways?

Yes, Matthew could have handled it differently (a bit more diplomatically), but if people wait until something _has_ happened (an injury or a death) before pointing out poor driving, poor knowledge of the HC etc, then that is too late.

I have occasionally wished I had a helmet cam. I don't commute, I only cycle for fun, but I have had rides spoilt by someone frightening me or a companion with a close pass. I would love to have had video evidence, just so I could ask the local coppers if they could have a word. 

No-doubt someone will tell me to just let it all wash over me and get on with the ride. Usually I do. But really, why _shouldn't_ someone who has driven poorly be asked to mend their ways?


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## jarlrmai (24 Aug 2013)

Confrontations like this expose the raw attitudes that cause the driving that plague all of us, they are messy and seem unnecessary and over the top. Yes you can just ignore it and let it go and you will probably have an easier time of things. When we choose not to it's often messy and probably people don't behave as they always should when situations get heated.

In a way this is a protest movement (maybe a little ott), there will be those who are okay with the status quo and there are those whom are not, the laws of the road are being ignored by a small proportion of people who are willing to intimidate vulnerable people from a massive position of strength or engage in selfish driving behaviours that lead to death and injury, they are further backed up by a greater population who are ambivalent at best and at worst... well the comments on any cycling story in a major press website tell you about those people, furthermore the police don't really seem to care outside of London and Roadsafe (which probably has the greatest percentage of cycling commuters) and from what I hear it's not always plain sailing there. This encourages the vigilantism and the self documentation using cameras.


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## Black Country Ste (24 Aug 2013)

cd365 said:


> I perceive it to be bullying and I don't think I am the only one who sees it that way and I am not talking about just this thread.


 

Exactly. It's the same old faces giving him grief. The same old faces saying: "That never happens to me, put the camera away, there's a good boy. Run along." That's bullying.

I don't understand Asperger's, I'm not climbing Mount Stupid on that topic but Matthew sometimes acts on impulse. He overtook the bus at the crossing, it wasn't something I would do and others have fairly explained it to him. He gets it and has taken it on board just as he has with his behaviour around pedestrians in the past, which I've given him stick for. Great.

What happened after was an annoyed bus driver using his 13-ton weapon to pass closely in punishment, which Matthew *ignored* with a shake of the head. The bus driver did it again with added obscene gestures and, when asked why, then verbally assaulted Matthew and involved his colleagues to gang up on him. That must have been intimidating for a young boy to have two, three, middle aged men shouting at him. All Matthew has done was stand his ground.

It could be that one or both drivers stand to lose their jobs over that. So simple: Don't drive like a staff puppy and don't threaten members of the public while representing your employer. I could very well expect to lose my job behaving like that when I'm out in the van.


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## Slaav (24 Aug 2013)

My word; how many posts have I wanted to comment on or reply to but here are a few of my thoughts having read the whole damn thing  (Forgive me if I forget to insult anyone or praise a 'nobber' by mistake....)

Just above, for the first time, the word 'Proportion' has been mentioned. I think in many aspects of law and life, proportionality is a key message in respnses. If losing his job is proportional having given Matthew the bird fits with your own personal yardstick, then fine. It doesn't fit with me. If this is the 17th such incident and he has been reprted by 16 other seperate motorists/road users or even passengers, then that would be different. I believe that in London, if Hackney or Licensed Taxi drivers have one minor complaint, nothing much happens. If they have one MAJOR incident and are at fault, they can lose their job and badge. Many or several small incidents being reported to PCO (?) then a 'word' is had and that can obviously end up with loss of badge.

I don't feel it is appropriate to comment on the bullyng 'claims' and rebuttals for all sorts of reasons....

Highway Code. Now here is a good one.... I would have stated categorically that I was fairly familiar with the Highway Code as I studied it fastidiously to pass my test (1984!) To this day, I would have sworn blindly that the wording was 'cyclists should not ride more than two abreast, especially on busy or narrow roads'. It doesn't! I have now read it and see how I was wrong about something so simple. Has it changed? I have no idea. WHich leads me on to a question; Why do we not have retests of our driving test? In this stupid land of culpability and litigation, surely it would be POSITIVE to retest people in command of big metal boxes? There would be uproar I am sure for a few years, so introduce it in (say) 10 years or so - plenty of time for people to grow accustomed to the idea? PSV drivers do (I believe) have to retest and one would hope that this includes the HC? Maybe not, does anyone know?

On the OP (Sorry for tangent above) my very very first reaction was to reach for the popcorn and put the kettle on whilst the thread builded and I waited for the video. My very first thought on watching the video was 'oh dear, I would not have posted that first overtake up!'. COming back to my HC point above, I was convinced that the rules were simple - 'DO NOT OVERTAKE ON ZIGZAGS and on the approach to a corssing etc.' This was set in stone or so I thought..... HAving now read the HC and looked for 'my proof' it appears that the 'rules of the road' are weighted slightly differently for drivers and cyclists. I would still interpret the 'no overtaking on zigzags' to apply though - as opposed to filtering.

The BD (Thanks for the shorthand key above) may well have thought 'what the hell - what a knob!' as MT 'flew' past _irresponsibly_. There is always a chance that the BD has other issues which may well have contriubuted to his following behaviour but..... Notwithstanding these possible issues, having been 'startled' and annoyed by the irresponsible cyclist (in his mind), to then see the cyclist calling him a 'nutter' with the generally accepted pointing at head gesture, I was not particularly surprised by the BD's behaviour when confronted at the 'Depot'. (Probably not correct to generailse too much about BDs... )

Was anyone else really surprised by BD2 and (Damn cannot remember the funny one about the chap with glasses who thought he was God's gift and 'cool' so - ) BDWGWTHWGGAC backing up their colleague and possible mate? That is what happens and I would hope that my colleagues and mates' *first* instinct is to stand up for me  (As I can be a c0ck, it wouldn't last that long )

I also loved the bit about the HC but why oh why not carry around a proper little HC with those coloured tabs poking out the sides so you don't take 34 seconds to find the page..... I may have responded in a similar fashion to BDWGWTHWGGAC re my own two examples above if confronted with a 'print out' and not the little book - or am I showing my age again?

I think the BDs did not cover themselves in glory on this video - BDWGWTHWGGAC is simply a jumped up little tw4t and I think driving a bus is simply a coincidence. Cycling in London does lead to many VERY GOOD (BD) driver experiences and also some utter idiots - I am not happy that I have gestured at times. In LOndon and outside; sometimes it is a shake of the head or a frustrated gesture, sometimes a little stronger but PROPORTIONALITY please????? Both with MT and many posters on here who seem to want a fight over minor misunderstandings and perceived insults etc....

The main point of reading the whole thread (from my own PoV) is to learn and question my own views on the OP and video. I have changed some of my views, moulded some more and binned some. SOme have also been massively reinforced so thank you to all for that! 

The whole thing may not have happened without the initial 'moody' and mad (IMHO) overtake at the crossing and zigzags. WOuld everything else have happened if MT had simply overtaken at the Bus Stop? I don't think so but we will never ever know...... It might have done?

Personally, I think a bit more anticipation and diplomacy would help MT to enjoy his cycling more and also possibly make his hobby much safer for him. I have said it before but riding a motorbike for many years and being trained to do so properly mean I am a much better cyclist now than I could ever have hoped to be without it - certainly better than when I was 18/19


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## Cycling Dan (24 Aug 2013)

markharry66 said:


> Pass nothing wrong with it. If your not there to judge what Matthew can see in front of him (and we never will be) from camera looked fine.
> Matthew you have to learn to control your temper walk way or be less aggressive when talking to or confronting people. Personally I would not have bothered.* Life is to short*. On a daily commute I get cut up daily through London. Bus drivers, as a pro driver, that represents the company swearing,y confronting members of the public, arguing the toss with the public, shouting are all not acceptable. The represent the company. Driving standards are shocking. Personally if the company refuses to do anything about this I would head off to blogger create a blog. Use the video write some content and expose the fact that have no idea about road safety


 
Life is the longest thing you do.


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## Hip Priest (24 Aug 2013)

Black Country Ste said:


> Exactly. It's the same old faces giving him grief. The same old faces saying: "That never happens to me, put the camera away, there's a good boy. Run along." That's bullying.


 
No it isn't. It's advice. Aren't you the fella who ended up on the news when some motorist gave you a hiding? Well, I don't want that to happen to Matthew. And it's about 100 times more likely to happen if he listens to the likes of you instead the 'same old faces'.


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## Cycling Dan (24 Aug 2013)

Hip Priest said:


> No it isn't. It's advice. Aren't you the fella who ended up on the news when some motorist gave you a hiding? Well, I don't want that to happen to Matthew. And it's about 100 times more likely to happen if he listens to the likes of you instead the 'same old faces'.


 
He could put the camera away and do exactly that. Then if hes ever assaulted where does he stand then? At the bottom of the list and overlooked is where he is. Same if hes hit by a car. Plenty of threads on here.... Got hit by a car, nothing happened and bikes ruined. In most of them there were no witnesses or they were unreliable.
The only thing which needs to change is not the camera but his approach to some situations.


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## BimblingBee (24 Aug 2013)

Actively supporting and encouraging what could be described as a vulnerable road user with a questionable social skills to confront unknown road users and highlight perceived errors in their driving is, in my opinion, bullying in it's worst form.


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## Hip Priest (24 Aug 2013)

Cycling Dan said:


> He could put the camera away and do exactly that. Then if hes ever assaulted where does he stand then? At the bottom of the list and overlooked is where he is. Same if hes hit by a car. Plenty of threads on here.... Got hit by a car, nothing happened and bikes ruined.


 

I don't think the camera is the problem. In fact, I think it'd be quite useful in the event of a collision or confrontation.


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## Cycling Dan (24 Aug 2013)

Hip Priest said:


> I don't think the camera is the problem. In fact, I think it'd be quite useful in the event of a collision or confrontation.


 
Well that's the old boy saying on this thread and others. "Put the camera away and enjoy the ride". Along with other leave the camera at home related comments.
I agree his approach needs to change in some situations.


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## Hip Priest (24 Aug 2013)

Cycling Dan said:


> Well that's the old boy saying on this thread and others. "Put the camera away and enjoy the ride".


 

And that's their opinion. Probably based on years of experience. It isn't bullying.


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## classic33 (24 Aug 2013)

cd365 said:


> My existence has been far from sheltered.
> 
> How old was you when you did this? Like I said earlier Matthew will learn when and who to speak to.


How old were you when you did this?
Corrected one of your errors.


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## fatblokish (24 Aug 2013)

Looks to me like the bus driver was pointing with his index, not middle, finger. Maybe he too has a camera on board.


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## BlackPanther (24 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> For those who want to see the 'highway code' part, it is at about 6:00.
> 
> View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fp-G2bdt1_4




Apologies......missed this thread when it first appeared. This is probably the 1st time I've ever watched such a long video the whole way through. I'm sure it's all been said (I haven't read through all 15 pages of responses), the bus driver is a prat, and his attitude sucks. The guy who thinks a doors width is the 'legal' amount of room he should give a cyclist has in idiotic, and dangerous attitude to cyclists, who he thinks shouldn't even share 'his' road when there's a cycle path available! I've seen this attitude on occasion, but at the speeds you and I travel it would just be a matter of time before fast cyclist met pedestrian......roads are far safer for us. I just hope that Mr driver, and Mr Doorwidth are given a bit of training.


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## BlackPanther (24 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> I have made a complaint and will go down the companies route, instead of the police or other authorities.
> The driver was the problem, not the company.


 
I'd love to know the outcome regarding the driver and the uneducated chap you spoke at length to.


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## EltonFrog (24 Aug 2013)

What he needs is a woman, a couple pints of cider, and a good shag.


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## Origamist (24 Aug 2013)

CarlP said:


> What he needs is a woman, a couple pints of cider, and a good shag.


 
Which Arriva employee were you referring to as that prescription could be suitable for all three (post-shift of course, just in case they thought drink-driving and fornicating on a bus were acceptable behaviours too).


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## Kbrook (24 Aug 2013)

This thread has got me looking at other clips of cyclists confrontations. There are hundreds of them, there seems to be a class of cyclist whose sole wish is to get footage for YouTube, some even seem to see incidents coming but do nothing to avoid them even if it means contact. I was out for hours yesterday in the country and if I had a problem it was cars not wanting to pass me because they figured the road wasnt wide enough. That resulted in me having to speed up hills, something I never do! What did I do with these considerate motorists, well I didn't have a camera to post how nice they were on YouTube so I gave them a friendly wave to say thanks. Do we have a breed of cyclists, guessing more so in towns, that seek confrontation, it appears so.


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## Boris Bajic (24 Aug 2013)

Kbrook said:


> This thread has got me looking at other clips of cyclists confrontations. There are hundreds of them, there seems to be a class of cyclist whose sole wish is to get footage for YouTube, some even seem to see incidents coming but do nothing to avoid them even if it means contact. I was out for hours yesterday in the country and if I had a problem it was cars not wanting to pass me because they figured the road wasnt wide enough. That resulted in me having to speed up hills, something I never do! What did I do with these considerate motorists, well I didn't have a camera to post how nice they were on YouTube so I gave them a friendly wave to say thanks. Do we have a breed of cyclists, guessing more so in towns, that seek confrontation, it appears so.


 
Pah! You're not trying hard enough, not looking hard enough and are probably being cowed into the gutter by psychotic and violent motorists...

I too have failed to find the sort of discord that many find with great frequency. You and I are both terrible failures and probably do not love cycling enough.

Like you, I find almost all other road users considerate, skilled and courteous. We are failures for thinking so!

It may be because my forty-plus years of cycling, thirty-plus years of driving and the fact that I rode on the public highway at a very young age have somehow led me to see no threat, just as a tamed animal doesn't fear humans. We must change!

You and I must train ourselves to be stronger, to be constantly on the lookout for the malefactor and (most important of all) selflessly capture it on film and put it online for the benefit of all.

We must march today!! We must stand up against beastly, horrid cars!!!!!! We must become HEROES!!!! (I now imagine stirring music and a slightly onanistic fantasy in which beautiful women throw themselves at me for saving cycling).


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## Jezston (24 Aug 2013)

What is it with all the people on the thread (and so many like it) like PK99 and Boris saying the same things over and over again, when OP hasn't even posted in ages? Some of you have posted pretty much the same thing on every single page. Was the first time not enough.

Plenty of utterly unconstructive abuse that's being 'liked' by the same old group of people who just LOVE slagging off anyone who dares ride a bike with a camera on, and who cares to stand up for themselves, let alone other cyclists, on this forum.

You all need to take a long hard look at yourselves. Bunch of middle aged men behaving like teenage internet bullies.


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## Hip Priest (24 Aug 2013)

[QUOTE 2615184, member: 45"]That can be done without several posters joining together to call him a nobber.[/quote]


I've only seen one person use the word nobber, and that was just lukesdad making a joke.


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## User6179 (24 Aug 2013)

Jezston said:


> What is it with all the people on the thread (and so many like it) like PK99 and Boris saying the same things over and over again, when OP hasn't even posted in ages? Some of you have posted pretty much the same thing on every single page. Was the first time not enough.
> 
> Plenty of utterly unconstructive abuse that's being 'liked' by the same old group of people who just LOVE slagging off anyone who dares ride a bike with a camera on, and who cares to stand up for themselves, let alone other cyclists, on this forum.
> 
> You all need to take a long hard look at yourselves. Bunch of middle aged men behaving like teenage internet bullies.


 
Dont think its bullying but I do think by their posts they miss the whole point which is other road users attitudes towards cyclist.
Instead they choose to focus on the OPs attitude which I dont think is anyway dangerous to other road users unlike the two bus drivers .


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## lukesdad (24 Aug 2013)

Hip Priest said:


> I've only seen one person use the word nobber, and that was just lukesdad making a joke.


 Mathew knows me well enough  and he actually has a sense of humour, unlike some of you other nobbers


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## User6179 (24 Aug 2013)

lukesdad said:


> Mathew knows me well enough  and he actually has a sense of humour, unlike some of you other nobbers


 
Takes one to know one

It was obviously a joke you made !


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## oldfatfool (24 Aug 2013)

If Mathew feels bullied (as opposed to others feeling bullied for him by proxy) I will gladly apologize for my use of the term 'nobber'.


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## lukesdad (24 Aug 2013)

Eddy said:


> Takes one to know one
> 
> It was obviously a joke you made !


 you better believe it i'm the biggest nobber on here oh hold on a minute I forgot about noods !


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## lukesdad (24 Aug 2013)

Jezston said:


> What is it with all the people on the thread (and so many like it) like PK99 and Boris saying the same things over and over again, when OP hasn't even posted in ages? Some of you have posted pretty much the same thing on every single page. Was the first time not enough.
> 
> Plenty of utterly unconstructive abuse that's being 'liked' by the same old group of people who just LOVE slagging off anyone who dares ride a bike with a camera on, and who cares to stand up for themselves, let alone other cyclists, on this forum.
> 
> You all need to take a long hard look at yourselves. Bunch of middle aged men behaving like teenage internet bullies.


 Did someone fart ? Oh, no its only Jezston ! as you were.


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## cd365 (24 Aug 2013)

classic33 said:


> How old were you when you did this?
> Corrected one of your errors.


Thanks, so kind


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## classic33 (24 Aug 2013)

cd365 said:


> Thanks, so kind


I'd have said "don't mention it", but you did.


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## Pale Rider (24 Aug 2013)

Every forum - like every village - needs an idiot.

I don't think Matthew is one, but I admire him for taking on the role.

Let's call it method acting.


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## jarlrmai (24 Aug 2013)

Don't think that was called for..


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## User6179 (24 Aug 2013)

Pale Rider said:


> Every forum - like every village - needs an idiot.
> 
> I don't think Matthew is one, but I admire him for taking on the role.
> 
> Let's call it method acting.


 
Now this is abusive and a form of bullying and ironic as Mathew didnt say anything as near as bad as this !


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## Moderators (24 Aug 2013)

@Pale Rider AND everyone else

Keep it civil and avoid personal comments, or the thread will be locked.

Last warning.


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## lukesdad (24 Aug 2013)

The Jogger said:


> I hear what you are saying but isn't it a case of this whole thing getting out of all proportion. How many of us have experienced this on our commute and just got on with it.


 Getting it out of all proportion is the agenda for some and to suck in as many as they can. Just noticed you ve moved to Liss, I used to live in Liphook lovely cycling area, is the cycle shop still by the level crossig ?


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## Gez73 (24 Aug 2013)

I think it should be locked now. All that should and shouldn't be said, has been. Let's have a peaceful weekend and await any updates MatthewT is prepared to share when he finds out. We might run 
out of internet!


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## Sara_H (24 Aug 2013)

Wow. Wether Mathew was right or wrong to go after the driver aside (I confess I've done similar in the past and been far less polite than Mathew was! But I did have PMT at the time, Your Honour) I am absolutely astounded by the ignorance of the Highway Code by the bus drivers concened.


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## The Jogger (24 Aug 2013)

Cycling Dan said:


> *Well that's the old boy saying on this thread* and others. "Put the camera away and enjoy the ride". Along with other leave the camera at home related comments.
> I agree his approach needs to change in some situations.


 
WTF not sure what you mean, do you really mean the older ones on here are anti camera?


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## lukesdad (24 Aug 2013)

[QUOTE 2614800, member: 30090"]Don't even try with the victim blaming...[/quote]
Oh believe me I'm not even trying.......YET!


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## The Jogger (24 Aug 2013)

lukesdad said:


> Getting it out of all proportion is the agenda for some and to suck in as many as they can. *Just noticed you ve moved to Liss, I used to live in Liphook lovely cycling area, is the cycle shop still by the level crossig ?[/*quote]
> 
> No the cycle shop is now closed a pity as it is literally a stone throw from me. I have started doing more hills not that there wasn't any around Goodwood but there was more flat routes you could do unlike here. Just come from Liphook, nice area too.


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## Cycling Dan (24 Aug 2013)

The Jogger said:


> WTF not sure what you mean, do you really mean the older ones on here are anti camera?


 
The ones saying such do seem to be part of the older generation since most of them start of with "In all my 40+ years of cycling". Also the only anti camera people on here are the anti camera ones if that answers your question.


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## PK99 (24 Aug 2013)

Kbrook said:


> This thread has got me looking at other clips of cyclists confrontations. There are hundreds of them, there seems to be a class of cyclist whose sole wish is to get footage for YouTube, some even seem to see incidents coming but do nothing to avoid them even if it means contact. I was out for hours yesterday in the country and if I had a problem it was cars not wanting to pass me because they figured the road wasnt wide enough. That resulted in me having to speed up hills, something I never do! What did I do with these considerate motorists, well I didn't have a camera to post how nice they were on YouTube so I gave them a friendly wave to say thanks. Do we have a breed of cyclists, guessing more so in towns, that seek confrontation, it appears so.



I've said something similar before. In helmet debates there is a claim that wearing a helmet leads to risk compensation/perceived invulnerability. Some helmet cammers seem to exhibit a similar effect (note, some not all), and, rather than committing to the negotiation of space that is necessary out on the roads, and cycling assertively yet defensively, they cycle in an aggressive way to claim their rights on the road - confident that if they do come a cropper they will have video evidence to prove they were in the right. In doing so, they themselves exhibit some very dubious cycling behaviours. The Droid is a prime example, protected in his cocoon of cameras, he wanders randomly across lanes and then complains when drivers mis-read his intentions, he splits lanes by riding along the white dividing line and complains when passed on either or both sides. Others, eg Gaz, exhibit exemplary cycling behaviour from which we can all learn, and has the honesty to admit to his own goofs.


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## The Jogger (24 Aug 2013)

Cycling Dan said:


> The ones saying such do seem to be part of the older generation since most of them start of with "In all my 40+ years of cycling". Also the only anti camera people on here are the anti camera ones if that answers your question.


 
I'm in that age bracket and I have a camera but hey. I really don't think you can generalise in that way I'm sure a lot of people in the over 40s age bracket have supported Matt. A little bit of ageism from you I believe.


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## Boris Bajic (24 Aug 2013)

Cycling Dan said:


> The ones saying such do seem to be part of the older generation since most of them start of with "In all my 40+ years of cycling". Also the only anti camera people on here are the anti camera ones if that answers your question.


 
I'm considered by some to be one of the_ 'anti-camera brigade'_. I do tend to start posts with _"in all my forty years of bicycling",_ but past a certain age the needle gets a little stuck and we just keep saying the same thing... I am a repetitive and dull old git and know it better than anyone.

Nonetheless (and at the risk of repeating myself further) I am *by no means* anti-camera. Quite the opposite.

I have praised severally on CC what I think is the sterling contribution of some of the head-cam footage on YouTube. I've mentioned Gaz, BM and other CC contributors.

I've even used the odd snippet of '_sillycyclists'_ to make one or another point to my children about riding in traffic. I've mentioned this several times.

It is not cameras I find ridiculous. I have a slight issue with posturing, confrontational, trouble-seeking, would-be caped heroes who get shouty in traffic 'for the benefit of us all'. I find such characters ridiculous because... well... they usually are.

Trafficdroid comes to mind, among others.

Cameras are their tool, but the ridicule is born of their attitude. Many do not share this view, which is how the world should be.


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## Matthew_T (24 Aug 2013)

BlackPanther said:


> I'd love to know the outcome regarding the driver and the uneducated chap you spoke at length to.


I will let you know when I get a response.


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## The Jogger (24 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> I will let you know when I get a response.


 
Maybe you should tell the company you would hate to see the driver lose his job over it?


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## classic33 (24 Aug 2013)

Sara_H said:


> Wow. Wether Mathew was right or wrong to go after the driver aside (I confess I've done similar in the past and been far less polite than Mathew was! But I did have PMT at the time, Your Honour) I am absolutely astounded by the ignorance of the Highway Code by the bus drivers concened.


Local Arriva drivers are just as bad. Once rode 30 miles to there Wakefield depot after the driver of one of their buses shoved me off the road. I went to return the side radiator panel that had fallen off in the collision.


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## Matthew_T (24 Aug 2013)

Well this thread went down a line that I didnt intend it too. Got back from work to find 3 more pages and 15 notifications. I have tried to read all the comments but honestly it is too much. In the three pages I read, I only found about 5 helpful comments.

Someone mentioned that I dont have Autism. Believing that people on here had 'labelled' it on me. Well, I do have Autism. I was diagnosed with it when I was very young (cant give an age). I was in year 5 of primary school and when my teachers were informed of it, they just claimed that it was an excuse for my mischievous behaviour.

In terms of my cycling skills, I cycle very well by my own and others standards. Since joining CC, I have learnt many things. Mainly about taking primary at junctions, pinch points, etc. People still think that I need to take it more which in my opinion would cause more problems (with drivers). I am fully capable of handling myself on my bike, I know what i am capable of and where the dangers are. I have explained my reasons for the overtake at the crossing and will not repeat them.

Yes, I do have a confrontational attitude. However, people saying that I 'keep' getting into incidents and 'causing' them need to understand a few things: It has been a VERY LONG TIME since I started a thread about a driver, and an even longer time since I confronted anyone. I do not make a habit of it.

The camera is not on my mind all the time (per say). Therefore, my actions are my nature (which probably needs to be nurtured). Even when i havent worn the camera, I have still seen the same amount of bad drivers.

As I said before, I have learnt a lot from people on CC. Most comments are helpful and well aimed. However, it is the few that keep cropping up time after time, not only on my threads which need to look at not others, but their own riding styles. I cannot explain why I get so many incidents, but if other people actually look at what is happening around them instead of looking at the gutter, then maybe they can understand where I am coming from.

I have a lot to learn, I know that. But people saying "bin the camera and get on with your life" are seriously stupid. I am not getting rid of the camera, it is there for a purpose. And as I said before, the amount of incidents I have had had rapidly decreased. The last time a driver got out of their car to have a go at me was a year ago (Mr GK03ZTM - Road rage man).

To the people who seem to believe it is acceptable to insult my personal life: I enjoy my life at the moment, I have a job in a friendly atmosphere, I have successfully passed my driving test, I am half way through a degree, and I enjoy my cycling much more than people think. I have a good life right now and motorists like the one in this thread are not spoiling it, and neither should people on here try.


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## Cycling Dan (24 Aug 2013)

Boris Bajic said:


> I'm considered by some to be one of the_ 'anti-camera brigade'_. I do tend to start posts with _"in all my forty years of bicycling",_ but past a certain age the needle gets a little stuck and we just keep saying the same thing... I am a repetitive and dull old git and know it better than anyone.
> 
> Nonetheless (and at the risk of repeating myself further) I am *by no means* anti-camera. Quite the opposite.
> 
> ...


 
I totally agree, it just does not come across that way most of the time. 100% agree when it comes to traffic droid. His heart was in the right place but now its just crazy and i'm positive he goes looking for trouble and actively rides in a way of which could cause footage for youtube.


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## Matthew_T (24 Aug 2013)

Cycling Dan said:


> I totally agree, it just does not across that way most of the time. 100% agree when it comes to traffic droid. His heart was in the right place but now its just crazy and i'm positive he goes looking for trouble and actively rides in a way of which could cause footage for youtube.


I used to like his videos but he seems now just to be out to get people. I also dont think cycling is doing him much good as all you can hear when he is on his own is constant panting.
I dont have anything against the guy but he does need to address his actions. Moreso than me.


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## Boris Bajic (24 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> I used to like his videos but he seems now just to be out to get people. I also dont think cycling is doing him much good as all you can hear when he is on his own is constant panting.
> I dont have anything against the guy but he does need to address his actions. Moreso than me.


 
Can't you guys give the camera boys a break!

It's always the younger ones who say that head-cam users _'need to address their actions'_!

TrafficDroid doesn't go looking for incidents; he just happens to be there when they happen. Cut the poor man some slack!

Be fair to TrafficDroid, he does get into the odd confrontation, but if people drove as they ought to then he'd just go about his business... He is not the cause of.... oh, hang on... no.... this is wrong.

Help... my compass has gone haywire.


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## Deleted member 20519 (24 Aug 2013)

Cycling Dan said:


> I totally agree, it just does not across that way most of the time. 100% agree when it comes to traffic droid. His heart was in the right place but now its just crazy and i'm positive he goes looking for trouble and actively rides in a way of which could cause footage for youtube.


 

Traffic droid is a bit crazy. Five cameras, a pole sticking out of his handlebars with another camera, blasting 30 seconds of his 'droid horn' when a taxi comes a bit too close, it's all a bit mad.


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## Cycling Dan (24 Aug 2013)

jazloc said:


> Traffic droid is a bit crazy. Five cameras, a pole sticking out of his handlebars with another camera, blasting 30 seconds of his 'droid horn' when a taxi comes a bit too close, it's all a bit mad.


 
He goes round giving red cards now


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## Boris Bajic (24 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> Well this thread went down a line that I didnt intend it too... (Edited)
> 
> * I cannot explain why I get so many incidents, but if other people actually look at what is happening around them instead of looking at the gutter, then maybe they can understand where I am coming from.*
> 
> (Further edits)


 
I left just one sentence in this quote. I think it says all I want to say.

The clear implication is that I have had almost no incidents since the Ark landed on Mount Ararat because I ride around looking at the gutter.

Seriously, I do not look at the gutter, I do not have many (any) incidents and I really did help Noah to build the Ark.

I lied about the Ark, but the other stuff is true.


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## Cycling Dan (24 Aug 2013)

Boris Bajic said:


> I left just one sentence in this quote. I think it says all I want to say.
> 
> The clear implication is that I have had almost no incidents since the Ark landed on Mount Ararat because I ride around looking at the gutter.
> 
> ...


You can just say your old but I'm not going to sit here and let you lie about not helping built the ark


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## PK99 (24 Aug 2013)

jazloc said:


> *Traffic droid** is a bit crazy.* Five cameras, a pole sticking out of his handlebars with another camera, blasting 30 seconds of his 'droid horn' when a taxi comes a bit too close, it's all a bit mad.


 

I've wondered if his cocoon of cameras is some form of PTSD resulting from his SMISDY


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## Deleted member 20519 (24 Aug 2013)

Here's one of his comments @PK99


"And that my Friend was how Traffic Droid came about.. that exact manoeuvre sent me flying 10 feet... That's when I rose from the ashes of a passive cyclist into the Droid..."​


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## apb (24 Aug 2013)

What I find common with a lot of the close pass videos that are posted here is the similarity in infratucture. Very long straight "fast" roads either dual carriage ways or narrow roads with pinch points. 

I rarely have issues with drivers (maybe one every couple of months) but I can predict where on my route most of those incidents will take place.

If you really wanted to avoid these incidents could you simply rethink your route? If not, you are maybe at the mercy of your council. But if there is a path already installed you will have sweet f all chance of getting better infrastructure.

I competely understand why you don't use cycle paths as who wants to share a path with dog walkers and parents pushing prams while travelling at 25 mph.

But the term "finger waving", which Boris used says it all. If you are going to come across with a "holy than thou" attitude you will only get a shouty response.

This week I was occupying the right of a lane at a T junction, obviously turning right. I had young whipper snapper in his daddies jag hanging out of the window saying "excuse me cyclist can you please indicate". I obliged him by indicating with my middle finger extended. His age and patronizing tone (finger waving) deserved such a response even though he technically was right. I remain unapologetic, though in hindsight I wish I gave him no response.


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## RWright (24 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> I have a good life right now and motorists like the one in this thread are not spoiling it, and neither should people on here try.


 
Maybe you don't understand that people are happy you have a good life. I know I am. I don't think anyone wants to see you get hurt and a lot of the criticism is coming from people that want to keep you healthy.

In my view, everything that happened after 1:27 is you trying to instigate a hostile response from the driver.
Like I asked you earlier and got no response, why did you pass the bus again after you felt your life was so threatened the first time? I am thinking you maybe didn't feel as threatened as you are letting on. Someone that really felt threatened would have stayed away from that bus, gone home and sent the video to the proper authorities. You were out for drama, it is obvious to anyone with any brains.

You are not helping your case carrying around a copy of the highway code along with your camera and that stupid F@@@ing horn. You can try to say the horn is for safety but that is BS and you know it, it is for aggression, pure and simple. You start infringing on peoples personal lives and compromising their livelihood like you are trying to do now and things can get bad for you quickly. Someone could easily catch you in a remote area, plow you under with a car, shove the horn up your ass and leave you laying on the side of the road bleeding to death while your beloved camera is laying crushed somewhere at the bottom of the Irish Sea. Nobody wants to see that happen. You have a lot of growing up to do. I hope you make it.

Just trying to help. You are my West Coast UK playa  I enjoy reading about your antics but don't want to see you get hurt, you are pushing the envelope now. I think you owe the driver an apology, he could even be Santa Clause doing his summer job.


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## 4F (24 Aug 2013)

Personally I don't think anyone in that video came out of it very well. Poorly timed overtake, idiot bus drivers and plastic police who don't know the hc. #nobbers the lot of them.


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## EltonFrog (24 Aug 2013)

jazloc said:


> "And that my Friend was how Traffic Droid came about.. that exact manoeuvre sent me flying 10 feet... That's when I rose from the ashes of a passive cyclist into the Droid..."​



Pretentious Beau Larques.


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## EltonFrog (24 Aug 2013)

Boris Bajic said:


> Can't you guys give the camera boys a break!
> 
> It's always the younger ones who say that head-cam users _'need to address their actions'_!
> 
> ...



It's Gods will.


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## classic33 (25 Aug 2013)

Why did the driver go & ask the BTP about the Highway Code? Their uniform has British Transport Police on it, so their not PCSO's or "plastic police". They even said they were BTP.


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## shunter (25 Aug 2013)

RWright said:


> Maybe you don't understand that people are happy you have a good life. I know I am. I don't think anyone wants to see you get hurt and a lot of the criticism is coming from people that want to keep you healthy.
> 
> In my view, everything that happened after 1:27 is you trying to instigate a hostile response from the driver.
> Like I asked you earlier and got no response, why did you pass the bus again after you felt your life was so threatened the first time? I am thinking you maybe didn't feel as threatened as you are letting on. Someone that really felt threatened would have stayed away from that bus, gone home and sent the video to the proper authorities. You were out for drama, it is obvious to anyone with any brains.
> ...


 
Maybe you should consider if this situation would have happened if the original poster had been riding a Harley Davidson Ultra Glide. Would the bus driver have been as quick to play games with his overtaking to show him he had no right to be on the road. Would he have reacted in the same way to a motorcycle overtaking him. I think not. Would you then have complained about the motorcycle's loud pipes and horn. Would the bus driver have been as confident in giving a finger to him knowing that he was a biker and not a cyclist. So a horn on a bicycle is for aggression and a horn on a motorcycle is for love and peace and that is the main difference - I don't think so. Cyclists have the same rights on the road as motorcyclists and your comments on being ploughed under a car and a horn shoved up your ass are based on a cyclist being a more vulnerable user of the road. Your post sounds like a threat - why?


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## RWright (25 Aug 2013)

shunter said:


> Maybe you should consider if this situation would have happened if the original poster had been riding a Harley Davidson Ultra Glide. Would the bus driver have been as quick to play games with his overtaking to show him he had no right to be on the road. Would he have reacted in the same way to a motorcycle overtaking him. I think not. Would you then have complained about the motorcycle's loud pipes and horn. Would the bus driver have been as confident in giving a finger to him knowing that he was a biker and not a cyclist. So a horn on a bicycle is for aggression and a horn on a motorcycle is for love and peace and that is the main difference - I don't think so. Cyclists have the same rights on the road as motorcyclists and your comments on being ploughed under a car and a horn shoved up your ass are based on a cyclist being a more vulnerable user of the road. Your post sounds like a threat - why?


 
Because there are some sick people out there he does not want to have to deal with. He does not realize hate is a strong emotion that can last a very long time. He isn't old enough to understand that I think. He does not want to be looking over his shoulder the rest of his life. Trouble is easy enough to find without looking for it, when you go out looking for it like he does in that video it is easy to eventually get more than you bargained for.

What Matthew did was wrong and if he does it for the possibility of getting on TV or in the papers, being a chat forum hero or whatever his ambitions with it are, it was he that went out causing the confrontation. I think he will one day look back on it and realize he was the one looking for and causing the trouble.


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## The Jogger (25 Aug 2013)

classic33 said:


> Why did the driver go & ask the BTP about the Highway Code? Their uniform has British Transport Police on it, so their not PCSO's or "plastic police". They even said they were BTP.



They were the btp pcso's


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## Mugshot (25 Aug 2013)

apb said:


> This week I was occupying the right of a lane at a T junction, obviously turning right. I had young whipper snapper in his daddies jag hanging out of the window saying "excuse me cyclist can you please indicate". I obliged him by indicating with my middle finger extended. His age and patronizing tone (finger waving) deserved such a response even though he technically was right. I remain unapologetic, though in hindsight I wish I gave him no response.


So you had another road user ask you, in what appears from the wording a perfectly reasonable manner, to be a little clearer in your intentions, which you even admit was correct to do, and you respond with the finger? 
It appears you did this because he was younger than you, you should feel very proud of yourself, well done you.
BTW how did you know it was his dads Jag?


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## mr_cellophane (25 Aug 2013)

There is one of SoW (Droid)'s videos where in his mind he is cut up by a bus driver. He chases the bus and tells the driver that he will report him for violating some section of a non-existent "Highway Code Road Traffic Act"  He posted another clip yesterday of the same driver, still driving the same route cutting him up in exactly the same place. 
My point is don't make threats you can't keep, it makes anything else you say and do worthless.


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## outlash (25 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> Well this thread went down a line that I didnt intend it too. Got back from work to find 3 more pages and 15 notifications. I have tried to read all the comments but honestly it is too much. In the three pages I read, I only found about 5 helpful comments.


 
Like you've never posted up footage and got plenty of replies, positive or negative? You've been here before, plenty of times.



> In terms of my cycling skills, I cycle very well by my own and others standards. Since joining CC, I have learnt many things. Mainly about taking primary at junctions, pinch points, etc. People still think that I need to take it more which in my opinion would cause more problems (with drivers). I am fully capable of handling myself on my bike, I know what i am capable of and where the dangers are. I have explained my reasons for the overtake at the crossing and will not repeat them.


 
There's plenty of moves in that clip that I wouldn't do. But that's just me, I fail to see why you (and others) see yourselves as cyclists/vunerable road users. Why can't you think of yourselves as just part of the traffic? I think changing your attitude would change the way you ride, for the better hopefully.



> Yes, I do have a confrontational attitude.


 
And that just about covers it IMO.



> I have a lot to learn, I know that. But people saying "bin the camera and get on with your life" are seriously stupid. I am not getting rid of the camera, it is there for a purpose.


 
And that's sound advice that you're clearly not prepared to listen to. Autism or otherwise, You live in a small town and you're going to get a reputation (if you haven't already), you're going to end up getting a pasting by someone. I'm on the roads everyday and see road users making bad decisions constantly. It's part & parcel of the territory. 

Tell me, what are going to do when you get a car? Stick a camera on a dashboard and film everything? What if a cyclist makes a dangerous move? Are you going to chase them down, confront them and then post the footage on youtube? It smacks of hypocrisy if you don't. 

Stop trying to be a keyboard warrior and shrug off the relatively minor stuff. Enjoy your life because the way you're heading, you might not be able to. 


Tony.


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## PK99 (25 Aug 2013)

mr_cellophane said:


> There is one of SoW (Droid)'s videos where in his mind he is cut up by a bus driver. He chases the bus and tells the driver that he will report him for violating some section of a non-existent *"Hig**hway Code Road Traffic Act"* He posted another clip yesterday of the same driver, still driving the same route cutting him up in exactly the same place.
> My point is don't make threats you can't keep, it makes anything else you say and do worthless.


 
*"Hig**hway Code Road Traffic Act" *is one of his favourite phrases.


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## PK99 (25 Aug 2013)

I have a lot to learn, I know that. But people saying "bin the camera and get on with your life" are seriously stupid. I am not getting rid of the camera,* it is there for a purpose.* And as I said before, the amount of incidents I have had had rapidly decreased. The last time a driver got out of their car to have a go at me was a year ago (Mr GK03ZTM - Road rage man).

.[/quote]

I know people who ride with cameras to provide evidence if they ever need it. They do not post to the net.



What is the purpose of your camera? Evidential or Keyboard Warrior?


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## mr_hippo (25 Aug 2013)

OP, life may be like a box of chocolates where you can pick and choose your favourites but the Highway Code does not give you that option. Please read Highway Code 191 and tell me why you are exempt from it. I hope you do take the clip to the police station and the police see that you have committed an offence and decide to prosecute you!
Without reference to the mythical 1 metre/yard, what is a close overtake in your opinion? Mine would include 'having to change speed/course to avoid a collision' but you did neither.
Perhaps you should confine your cycling to laps around the local duck pond (pink handlebar tassels optional). Forget that - we may be inundated with videos of close overtakes by flying ducks where you go after the offending duck screeching "That was too close Have you read the Flyway Code? I have a copy in my bag."


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## shunter (25 Aug 2013)

RWright said:


> Because there are some sick people out there he does not want to have to deal with. He does not realize hate is a strong emotion that can last a very long time. He isn't old enough to understand that I think. He does not want to be looking over his shoulder the rest of his life. Trouble is easy enough to find without looking for it, when you go out looking for it like he does in that video it is easy to eventually get more than you bargained for.
> 
> What Matthew did was wrong and if he does it for the possibility of getting on TV or in the papers, being a chat forum hero or whatever his ambitions with it are, it was he that went out causing the confrontation. I think he will one day look back on it and realize he was the one looking for and causing the trouble.


I can understand what you are saying but surely this suggests that the most vunerable person on the road - the cyclist - should keep his head down and accept his lot. History shows us that unequal injustices are not resolved in this manner but rather by standing up and facing the unnatural hate that others pour on them. A hate in this case shown by the head cam to be based on ignorance - of the highway code - and an attempt to use collectice bullying. Avoiding confrontation because someone could possibly take you to a remote place and sort you out only hands the roads to those with the biggest vehicles and fastest engines. A motorcyclist would not stand for this sort of treatment so why should a cyclist just accept his lot.


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## PedalCat (25 Aug 2013)

Matthew's involvement aside, it is interesting (and shocking and startling) that some people who are paid to drive very large vehicles on the public roads believe that cyclists have fewer rights on those roads.


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## MontyVeda (25 Aug 2013)

PedalCat said:


> Matthew's involvement aside, it is interesting (and shocking and startling) that some people who are paid to drive very large vehicles on the public roads believe that cyclists have fewer rights on those roads.


it's not just cyclists, or paid drivers... ask any driver if they're aware of the 27 (ish) changes made to the Highway Code in 2007 and chances are it's news to them. The hugely unpopular Drivers Certificate of Professional Competence, which requires professional drivers to undertake 35 hours of training every 5 years is a good thing IMO... but i think it should definitely be rolled out to taxi drivers, and even non-professional drivers. I also think the Govt should foot the bill and provide 'good' periodic training courses.


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## shunter (25 Aug 2013)

PedalCat said:


> Matthew's involvement aside, it is interesting (and shocking and startling) that some people who are paid to drive very large vehicles on the public roads believe that cyclists have fewer rights on those roads.


I agree - shooting the messenger is pointless as this message still remains. I break all sorts of small details of the highway code to ensure my position on the road or to give myself a good start at a junction. I don' t go through red lights! Interstingly the only engined two wheel vehicles I've seen mugged on the road by impatient drivers are vespa and small scooter riders. Go figure. Maybe they think - like cyclists- they won't be able to catch up and therefore there will be no physical confrontation to their bullying ways!


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## Gez73 (25 Aug 2013)

The issue isn't about accepting one's lot and having a victim mentality on the roads. It's this attitude that keeps cyclists in the gutter or keeps people off their bikes altogether. What I personally disagree with is the OP attitude and his chasing down a driver to his place of work and then confronting him, mostly driven by the fact IMO that the whole incident was being filmed. As has been mentioned would the OP have confronted a driver on his driveway on a council estate? The footage could have been submitted to the bus company without the confrontation/escalation. Most of us who commute in traffic are happy to accept the inevitable wrongdoing of other road users and cycle in a fashion so as to limit the chances of an accident. Filming these situations so you can create a video and then take the moral high-ground, however justified, just seems wrong to me and smacks of some sort of crusader attitude to other road users. Sometimes the smart thing to do is cycle away and submit the footage to the appropriate authorities and await their response. Confronting drivers as has happened here is a serious assault waiting to happen, apart from which all the evidence is presumably on the camera on the OP's head unless it's being streamed which I doubt. Only a matter of time before someone takes extreme and probably violent action to prevent any fallout from their mistakes.


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## Boris Bajic (25 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> Sigh, yes another 'Matthew_T thread'. However, this one takes the biscuit. (edited)
> 
> Sorry about the length of this thread. And *CONSTRUCTIVE critisism* is welcomed.


 
Matthew, this is a tired format now and it must be galling for you to see the same old gits (me and others) making the same old points.

You disagree with us, while I and others think you are punching rough-rendered walls with bare knuckles and will gain nothing but pain from the exercise.

It is an_ impasse_ that repeats itself whenever you post a video. I have thought and thought and thought. You sit in age right between my two elder children, both of them keen cyclists. They may even post on things like this without my knowledge... I see that you invite contructive criticism and I offer you this as I would hope others might offer something to my offspring:

1. You ride with a club. That is *excellent*. Club riders are often gnarled old racers and many of them have decades of cycling and driving experience. They know the roads out your way, where we do not. They know the danger spots, the tricky junctions and all the rest of it. On a club run with ten other riders, you probably have hundreds of combined years of road experience. Furthermore, if you are in a chaingang, you are very likely to elicit a few noisy or revvy responses from drivers. It is wrong, but they do it. Chaingangs are hard to pass at times and although they have every right to be there, this makes some drivers cross. Observe how club riders deal with this. Listen to them. Watch how they ride and where they ride. In terms of cycling knowledge at your fingertips, they are probably an unrivalled resource for you. Use them as such to your own benefit.

2. When riding alone, make a conscious decision one day *not* to speak a word to another road user, *not* to shake your head, *not* to wag a finger, *not* to point at the camera or make any signal apart from those required by the HC (turns etc). It may be very difficult to do. But try as hard as you can to do it. Also, if someone winds you up, make a conscious decision* NOT* to catch up with them and prove a point. Once you have achieved those goals once, see how you feel after the ride. Does it feel better? More relaxed? Try it* again* and* again* and *again* until it is your default setting. You may find that you reach the end of your ride in a much more relaxed state. (And it is clear from your extensive YouTube library that you are often extremely 'un-relaxed'). Give yourself a reward for each confrontation avoided and each confrontation-free ride. Seriously. 

3. Start a diary (not online) of your rides. Distance, date, route, average speed, weather, good points, bad points etc... Write it after you get back. Just use a diary or a notebook with a space for each heading. Note also (gulp) the number of times you have wanted to speak to, shake your head at or otherwise interact with another road user and have resisted the temptation to do so. Be completely honest with yourself about that bit. Keep it offline and keep it on paper. Just for you. See if you notice any change in your wish to confront and challenge other road users.

4. Every time (EVERY TIME) you feel tempted to chide another road user for this, that or the other wrongdoing, imagine how you'd feel if *you* made some error and had someone with *your* attitude speaking to you the way you speak to others. You can imagine it if you try. It is likely that imagining such a blunt approach by a finger-wagging, head-shaking teen taking what may appear to be a patronising tone will make you shudder. It may make you want to retaliate. That is how others probably react when confronted by you. Do bear in mind how you appear to those you speak to. In your videos it is quite stark how what you think are polite approaches come across as haranguing and brusque.

You may think this is patronising twoddle. You may be right. But I guarantee that you will enjoy your rides more if you follow that advice and other people will enjoy sharing the road with you more. You may swear that you already enjoy your rides, but your enormous video library on Youtube suggests that your blood-pressure barometer spends much of its time in the MR ANGRY zone. You do not come across as a happy road user and your Youtube channel is the chief witness for the prosecution.

I hope you'll see the above as constructive and I hope you'll follow it. The guys in your local club have been doing for decades what you've been doing for a few months. Maybe they've been doing something right all these years...

Seriously, give it a go. Whatever you may think of the above, it is written with a change for the better for you in mind.


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## Monsieur (25 Aug 2013)

Sorry - I've not read all this thread (19 pages!!!) but my first thought was...who the feck carries highway code???


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## classic33 (25 Aug 2013)

MontyVeda said:


> it's not just cyclists, or paid drivers... ask any driver if they're aware of the 27 (ish) changes made to the Highway Code in 2007 and chances are it's news to them. The hugely unpopular Drivers Certificate of Professional Competence, which requires professional drivers to undertake 35 hours of training every 5 years is a good thing IMO... but i think it should definitely be rolled out to taxi drivers, and even non-professional drivers. I also think the Govt should foot the bill and provide 'good' periodic training courses.


Why should anyone but the driver or the company they drive for have to foot the bill of what amounts to a retest. If the person wants to keep on driving, they should be the ones paying to prove that they're dtill fit to drive.


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## Gez73 (25 Aug 2013)

Monsieur said:


> Sorry - I've not read all this thread (19 pages!!!) but my first thought was...who the feck carries highway code???


 
It's for roadside tutorials, it's a public service the OP like to provide to errant drivers!


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## MontyVeda (25 Aug 2013)

classic33 said:


> Why should anyone but the driver or the company they drive for have to foot the bill of what amounts to a retest. If the person wants to keep on driving, they should be the ones paying to prove that they're dtill fit to drive.


for no other reason than to make it more palatable... and it's far from a re-test, it's more like watching a few videos. One 'passes' by simply attending. There is no pass/fail test with the DCPC. If it was funded differently, it may be in the interests of those funding it to make it more informative, more rigorous and more like a re-test. Of course it's all wishful thinking.


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## BimblingBee (25 Aug 2013)

User said:


> Matthew didn't commit an offence. The offence referred to in Rule 191 of the Highway Code, Section 25 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 and Regulation 24 of the Zebra, Pelican and Puffin Pedestrian Crossings Regulations and General Directions 1997 applies only to motor vehicles.
> 
> If you're going to lecture people on the law, you might at least try knowing what you're talking about... that way you look less of a nobber.



Well according to the highway code rules for cyclists https://www.gov.uk/rules-for-cyclists-59-to-82/overview-59-to-71 it gives guidance to overtaking and refers the cyclist to the rules for overtaking https://www.gov.uk/using-the-road-159-to-203/overtaking-162-to-169 and according to this it would not be advisable to overtake on crossings.


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## Kbrook (25 Aug 2013)

Highway Code is not law, not advisable isnt illegal, but its bloody stupid.


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## Pieface (25 Aug 2013)

The real question I wonder is did the OP buy his camera for the purpose of evidence, or he saw people posting videos on YouTube and thought I want a piece of that action?

All the confrontation would have done is make the bus driver hate cyclists more, whereas if you sent an email to the bus depot manager and state if you hear of no action you may contact the police, the bus driver will be educated in a non-hostile environment where he might take the information actually on board.

To cycle to the bus depot as well is a bit stupid as who knows what this guy could have done with all his friends behind him all on you.


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## The Jogger (25 Aug 2013)

PedalCat said:


> Matthew's involvement aside, it is interesting (and shocking and startling) that some people who are paid to drive very large vehicles on the public roads believe that cyclists have fewer rights on those roads.


 
So you're saying they don't receive the correct training?


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## Cycling Dan (25 Aug 2013)

The Jogger said:


> So you're saying they don't receive the correct training?


No, there idiots.


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## Deleted member 20519 (25 Aug 2013)

Cycling Dan said:


> No, there idiots.


 
They're*


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## Cycling Dan (25 Aug 2013)

jazloc said:


> They're*


Yer I know. I swear auto correct was created by satan just to piss people off.


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## The Jogger (25 Aug 2013)

Cycling Dan said:


> No, there they're idiots.


 
Fixed that for you.

Now who did you say were idiots?


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## Cycling Dan (25 Aug 2013)

The Jogger said:


> Fixed that for you.
> 
> Now who did you say were idiots?


Well he above was clearly referencing the bus drivers in the video. I would say no amount of training would save them from their idiotiticy.
I couldn't comment on general training but from personal experience most bus/lorry etcdrivers are fine. Any trouble I have myself is from private drivers.


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## ufkacbln (25 Aug 2013)

Pieface said:


> The real question I wonder is did the OP buy his camera for the purpose of evidence, or he saw people posting videos on YouTube and thought I want a piece of that action?
> 
> All the confrontation would have done is make the bus driver hate cyclists more, whereas if you sent an email to the bus depot manager and state if you hear of no action you may contact the police, the bus driver will be educated in a non-hostile environment where he might take the information actually on board.
> 
> To cycle to the bus depot as well is a bit stupid as who knows what this guy could have done with all his friends behind him all on you.


 

The key is subtlety... no point at all in confrontation

If you have a good case of dangerous driving

Firstly write to the company and complain, then await the reply. This will usually be the driver's version.
Then answer enclosing the video and asking why the driver is lying, and what action they will be taking about the incident and his consequent lies

Managers hate being made to look stupid.

I have one local company at the moment where the van driver stated that i was aggressive, violent and had harangued him with an foul mouthed rant..........Backed up by two of his colleagues. I asked if the manager had a written statement and when he confirmed this sent in the video. The passenger seat and centre seat where his colleagues claim to be sat is empty, and the video clearly shows that the only swearing was done by th driver.

All three are now on written warnings pending a fuller investigation, and disciplinary action


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## The Jogger (25 Aug 2013)

Cunobelin said:


> The key is subtlety... no point at all in confrontation
> 
> If you have a good case of dangerous driving
> 
> ...


 
In my experience if you have been given a warning for an offence then they can't give you another punishment / penalty for the same offence.


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## Spinney (25 Aug 2013)

But wouldn't any traffic misdemeanour be one offence, and lying to management be a different offence?


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## Pieface (25 Aug 2013)

The Jogger said:


> In my experience if you have been given a warning for an offence then they can't give you another punishment / penalty for the same offence.


I'm not sure, but I believe it could be like being suspended pending a full investigation?


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## Milzy (25 Aug 2013)

When I first watched this I was in disbelief that Matthew would be so pedantic to follow things up the way he did. I thought this is one extremely sad individual who needs to get a life & become thicker skinned much like the rest of us. Then as the film went on I was glad Matthew did what he did as it exposed that obnoxious knobber & his clueless side kick for what they really were. They need to be re-trained for the sake of the public & their employers. Pulling the highway code out was top drawer. Talk about been owned.
To be truthful 70% of head cam videos are so melodramatic watching them back can be worse than having a tooth pulled out with no anesthetic. However this one was very entertaining & informative. I feel it has to be king of all head cam videos right now & it's really going to take some beating.

Still it's not nice to see anyone loose their jobs unless they really deserve it. If it was me I'd have completely ignored that pass & gone about my day.

Matthew is like the complete opposite of Emma Way & for having the balls to confront the manager I say *chapéu!*


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## The Jogger (25 Aug 2013)

Spinney said:


> But wouldn't any traffic misdemeanour be one offence, and lying to management be a different offence?


 
No it's all part of the one investigation. If you are proved to be lying then things would get much worse in the ongoing case.


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## The Jogger (25 Aug 2013)

Pieface said:


> I'm not sure, but I believe it could be like being suspended pending a full investigation?


 
Not what was said, a warning was issued.


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## Pieface (25 Aug 2013)

The Jogger said:


> Not what was said, a warning was issued.


And I'm just saying what I believe it could be like. I never said they were suspended. But that until a full investigation is under way then they are just on a warning for now.


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## ComedyPilot (25 Aug 2013)

I had a bad pass by a bus a couple of months ago. It forced me off the road, but I managed to keep it upright. Luckily for me the bus behind it saw what happened and gave me a wide berth when it passed. I then saw bus 1 in the next village but it pulled away before I could confront the driver. Bus 2 was stopped just round the corner and reluctantly** agreed to confirm what happened.

I spoke to the owner of bus 1 and they confirmed with bus 2 what happened. The agency that supplied the driver for bus 1 have been dropped as a supplier of drivers.

**The driver saw what happened, agreed I had been forced off the road to avoid being hit/cleaned up but, and here's the bit that p*ssed me off, he didn't think it was that bad _*because*_ I wasn't hit....!

Edit - the relevance is that I don't use a camera, and without a witness this would have been swept under a carpet. I have been forced off the road more times than I ever deserve, and none of the 'bad' ones I reported to police went anywhere due to lack of witnesses. A camera would change that, but I don't see why I should fork out hundreds to capture footage for prosecutions...I just wanna ride in peace and safety.


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## The Jogger (25 Aug 2013)

Pieface said:


> And I'm just saying what I believe it could be like. I never said they were suspended. But that until a full investigation is under way then they are just on a warning for now.


 
My point is you can't receive two punishments for one offence. Anyway how can you be given a written warning without and investigation being carried out and then hit again after that. This would be a case for an ET.


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## classic33 (25 Aug 2013)

Were the buses from the same company?


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## Matthew_T (25 Aug 2013)

The reason i got a camera was because I had a driver go absolutely mental when I shook my head at him because he pulled out of a junction infront of me. He went chasing me around the local streets and i eventually hid behind a car for 10 mins to make sure he was gone. Thats why I got a camera.
Since then, I dont think much worse has happened. I have stood my ground more and been surprised that people always never follow what they actually say they will do.

I dont go looking for incidents or confrontations. Believe me, if I did I would have been assaulted by now. I only confront people to at least try and educate drivers. There have been some that have listened and been grateful for my explanation. However, if everyone is ignorant to what is going on and does not take a proactive technique to dealing with bad driving, then nothing will change.
The only ones who can make a difference are the victims* (just look at court cases).

*Victims in the sense that i mean it is not an excuse. In terms of what I am saying, I mean that most vulnerable people or the people who always come out of things badly.


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## classic33 (25 Aug 2013)

The Jogger said:


> My point is you can't receive two punishments for one offence. Anyway how can you be given a written warning without and investigation being carried out and then hit again after that. This would be a case for an ET.


They got caught lying, which called into question their previous evidence given. Managment don't like being lied to.


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## Pieface (25 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> The reason i got a camera was because I had a driver go absolutely mental when I shook my head at him because he pulled out of a junction infront of me. He went chasing me around the local streets and i eventually hid behind a car for 10 mins to make sure he was gone. Thats why I got a camera.
> Since then, I dont think much worse has happened. I have stood my ground more and been surprised that people always never follow what they actually say they will do.
> 
> I dont go looking for incidents or confrontations. Believe me, if I did I would have been assaulted by now. I only confront people to at least try and educate drivers. There have been some that have listened and been grateful for my explanation. However, if everyone is ignorant to what is going on and does not take a proactive technique to dealing with bad driving, then nothing will change.
> ...


If you don't look for confrontation, then why did you cycle all the way to the bus depot for exactly that, a confrontation?


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## The Jogger (25 Aug 2013)

classic33 said:


> They got caught lying, which called into question their previous evidence given. Managment don't like being lied to.


 
If they have been given a warning as a result of the investigation then that's it, if they have een given a warning before it has been investigated then it is wrong and the manager doesn't know what he is doing. Simple as that.


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## ufkacbln (25 Aug 2013)

I have no idea of the legalities, just what was in the reply


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## 400bhp (25 Aug 2013)

ComedyPilot said:


> I
> 
> **The driver saw what happened, agreed I had been forced off the road to avoid being hit/cleaned up but, and here's the bit that p*ssed me off, he didn't think it was that bad _*because*_ I wasn't hit....!


 

But, (relatively speaking) that is true really, however hard to stomach.

We'll never know whether the bus driver was really weighing up the relativity of being hit / not being hit or he was thinking at an absolute level.


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## CopperCyclist (25 Aug 2013)

Watching the video, and reading (almost) all of this thread (I admit skipping over some of the one-on-one side arguments, I'd like to thank Matt for both an entertaining view and read!

I loved the highway code bit, and I found the PCSO's being put on the spot and coming up wanting even funnier. I hadn't realised this chap was real 
View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VPs3cF8vOI


I'm hoping the serious message of the bus drivers not having a clue what they decide to 'lecture' on gets suitable response from their management too.

And my only advice to Matt? Don't use phrases like 'You've lost your job now'. I get this said to me all the time, and so far, still here. It tends to get ignored and only ever makes the speaker seem to over exaggerate their self importance.


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## Boris Bajic (25 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> The reason i got a camera was because* I had a driver go absolutely mental* when I shook my head at him because he pulled out of a junction infront of me. *He went chasing me around the local streets* and i eventually hid behind a car for 10 mins to make sure he was gone. Thats why I got a camera.
> Since then, *I dont think much worse has happened.* *I have stood my ground* more and been surprised that people always never follow what they actually say they will do.
> 
> I dont go looking for incidents or confrontations. Believe me, if I did I would have been assaulted by now.* I only confront people to at least try and educate drivers*. There have been some that have listened and been grateful for my explanation. However, if everyone is ignorant to what is going on and does not take a proactive technique to dealing with bad driving, then nothing will change.
> ...


 
Matthew, you_ 'liked'_ my advice in post #361. Thank you for reading it. But then you post what I have quoted above. It is totally, utterly and 110% at odds with the advice I gave and which you_ 'liked'_. 

I do urge you strongly to take the advice I offered. I've highlighted some of the phrases you use in #388. They stand out because most UK cyclists simply do not recognise these are a part of their life. Rhyl is not Gotham City. You are not Batman. It is not funny. 

Please believe me, you are not there to confront and educate other road users.

Try to put yourself in the shoes of those you _confront_ to try to_ educate_ them. Imagine how you would respond to someone confronting* you* in that way to educate* you*... 

Please, please, please take the advice I gave in post #361. If you like it enough to_ 'like'_ it, then do it. Not soon, not later. Now.

The other riders in your club (if it is anything like my boy's club) will be able to advise, guide and make suggestions. They'll also be able to give you an example of how they've managed to ride, enjoy and (above all) avoid confrontation.


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## RWright (25 Aug 2013)

shunter said:


> I can understand what you are saying but surely this suggests that the most vunerable person on the road - the cyclist - should keep his head down and accept his lot. History shows us that unequal injustices are not resolved in this manner but rather by standing up and facing the unnatural hate that others pour on them. A hate in this case shown by the head cam to be based on ignorance - of the highway code - and an attempt to use collectice bullying. Avoiding confrontation because someone could possibly take you to a remote place and sort you out only hands the roads to those with the biggest vehicles and fastest engines. A motorcyclist would not stand for this sort of treatment so why should a cyclist just accept his lot.


 
You don't normally see motorcycles holding up traffic progress, they have the highest power/weigh ratio of anything on public highways. I think if bicyclists would use better judgment sometimes there would be a lot less incidents on the roads. I didn't say he should have kept his head down. I said he should have sent his video to the proper authorities along with his complaints. It is the fact that he chose to again risk his life overtaking the big nasty beast of a bus with the crazy lunatic driver that may or may not have passed too close. After that HE chose to antagonize the bus driver by passing again and then pointing at his camera. A move which in itself was so childish it was pathetic, not even to get into the following of the bus to the station for the little temper tantrum exhibition because someone made a big bad meanie gesture at him.

The entire display at the bus station was pathetic to the point of being comical. The type thing that gives cyclist a bad reputation and does nothing except create bitterness towards them all. It could have all been avoided by sending the video to the proper authorities. Instead it was probably youtubed, tweeted, facebooked and possibly posted on every social media network he could find as soon as possible. The only thing that would have made the video complete was at the end of the highway code scene, if there would have been a close up of Matthew sucking triumphantly on a pacifier. (sorry Matthew, I couldn't resist that jab ).

Sharing the road works both ways, if you know you are going to be going down a narrow road and know a bus is going to have to pass you on it, you might want to consider not filtering by the bus at the intersection to start with. I think Matthew wants to be part of a solution and I commend him for it and wish him success. Sometimes a little more thought is needed in the process.


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## jarlrmai (25 Aug 2013)

He's referencing an incident where someone pulled out on him and then chased him because Matt shook his head, apart from not shaking his head in what way did he seek that confrontation? Other than by doing something that every person does when they get cut up? That guy would not have chased a car driver, he chased Matt because Matt was an easy target, he was a bully.

You keep talking about club riders? Do you ride in a club? I have ridden with a lot of club riders when i've met them out and about and a lot of them ride in the gutter unsafely in my opinion, but mostly to avoid angry drivers. Obviously all clubs are different but club riders are not all some paragon of riding excellence and a sometimes lot are worse than commuters who generally deal with busier roads at more congested times and therefore get into more dangerous situations where as club riders are generally about the set club routes which are designed to avoid traffic and take in a few hills.

Matt has the unfortunate situation where he is a young lad riding a bike in less well off part of the world with a tiny practically non existent cycling population, he is a commuter as well, he gets the worst cycling conditions there are. My experiences is that when I rode through Kirkby at rush hour that was the worst driving I experienced, however riding through a country village on a nice weekend evening group ride, very little trouble.

There's nothing wrong with trying to change attitudes, however it will require some level of confrontation.


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## Deleted member 20519 (25 Aug 2013)

Haven't we already established several times that the overtake was stupid?


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## jarlrmai (25 Aug 2013)

Yes the overtake was silly, it was silly because he overtook a long vehicle at a changing light and someone else could have been on the junction.

So the issue is was the overtake from the bus a response to this? A punishment or just normal okay driving? A mistake?

The attitudes of the drivers seems to indicate they a) don't know the law and b) consider it okay to use a bus to teach a cyclists a lesson.


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## Matthew_T (25 Aug 2013)

Boris Bajic said:


> Matthew, you_ 'liked'_ my advice in post #361. Thank you for reading it. But then you post what I have quoted above. It is totally, utterly and 110% at odds with the advice I gave and which you_ 'liked'_.
> 
> I do urge you strongly to take the advice I offered. I've highlighted some of the phrases you use in #388. They stand out because most UK cyclists simply do not recognise these are a part of their life. Rhyl is not Gotham City. You are not Batman. It is not funny.
> 
> ...


I did like your post, mainly because it was an excellent idea (the whole diary thing). That could be the thing that stops me confronting people, or even shaking my head. However, I will still be displeased with bad driving (like any normal person).

I am no longer a member of a club. I only joined for the social aspect which was non existent. I was getting ignored and people had a go at me riding on the road when there was a shared use path to the right.
Its much simpler riding on your own with your own style.


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## The Jogger (25 Aug 2013)

CopperCyclist said:


> View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VPs3cF8vOI


 
I knew this was the new police apprentice scheme.


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## Hip Priest (25 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> I am no longer a member of a club. I only joined for the social aspect which was non existent. I was getting ignored and *people had a go at me riding on the road when there was a shared use path to the right.*
> Its much simpler riding on your own with your own style.


 

Do you mean your fellow club members were having a go at you for using the road instead of shared paths? Bit odd that.


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## Matthew_T (25 Aug 2013)

Hip Priest said:


> Do you mean your fellow club members were having a go at you for using the road instead of shared paths? Bit odd that.


The path is on the opposite side of the road, which means crossing oncoming traffic to get to it. There was a steady stream and everyone else managed to get on it at the start. I chose to carry on until there was a safe gap and a dropped kerb. There was a driver behind me who was being patient as they could see I was trying to join the group.
Apparently in the groups mind, I caused the car to brake hard and was holding up traffic. I apologised to them and explained that I was finding it difficult but then one of the members came out with "I've got my son with me and I am trying to teach him how to correctly use the road". I felt that a visual lecture to me was probably the key to saying that what I did was wrong.


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## Hip Priest (25 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> The path is on the opposite side of the road, which means crossing oncoming traffic to get to it. There was a steady stream and everyone else managed to get on it at the start. I chose to carry on until there was a safe gap and a dropped kerb. There was a driver behind me who was being patient as they could see I was trying to join the group.
> Apparently in the groups mind, I caused the car to brake hard and was holding up traffic. I apologised to them and explained that I was finding it difficult but then one of the members came out with "I've got my son with me and I am trying to teach him how to correctly use the road". I felt that a visual lecture to me was probably the key to saying that what I did was wrong.


 

I think you've been treated unfairly there. I never used shared paths on my road bike.


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## Boris Bajic (25 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> The path is on the opposite side of the road, which means crossing oncoming traffic to get to it. There was a steady stream and everyone else managed to get on it at the start. I chose to carry on until there was a safe gap and a dropped kerb. There was a driver behind me who was being patient as they could see I was trying to join the group.
> Apparently in the groups mind, I caused the car to brake hard and was holding up traffic. I apologised to them and explained that I was finding it difficult but then one of the members came out with "I've got my son with me and I am trying to teach him how to correctly use the road". I felt that a visual lecture to me was probably the key to saying that what I did was wrong.


 
That sounds a little odd and I'm sorry you had a negative impression of the club ride. Was that your first and last ride or was it just an isolated experience? It may be that the other club members are not nice guys, but if so you're very unlucky. My experience of people in cycling clubs is that they're very welcoming and helpful. My boy (17 at the time) joined a local club and did some TTs. They were just as nice as pie and extremely positive and encouraging.

I'd still give it another go with the club (or with another club if there is one locally). You have a fantastic resource there in terms of having people around you who can offer advice and show by example how to ride in traffic without letting little transgressions get to you. These are people who ride regularly on your local roads at roadbike (training-run) speeds without getting into confrontations with other road users. They are the ones you can learn from - even if it means putting up with a slightly patronising lecture every now and then... 

Was it just one club member who tried to give you a bit of a lecture, or did you get the impression that they were all like that?

It just seems so unlike any experience I've had of club rides.

Glad to see you're taking the thought of a written log on board. I'd persevere with the club too - and have a good try and the silent, no-gestures, no-head-shakes ride too. You will crack it and lots of the stress will just sublimate...


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## PK99 (25 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> I am no longer a member of a club. I only joined for the social aspect which was non existent. I was getting ignored and people had a go at me riding on the road when there was a shared use path to the right.
> Its much simpler riding on your own with your own style.


 

You have tried VC melyd, what about Rhyl CC?

BTW the convention on Club Runs, is to follow the leader - they generally have a good reason for doing what they do. Participate. Observe and Learn.


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## Matthew_T (25 Aug 2013)

PK99 said:


> You have tried VC melyd, what about Rhyl CC?
> 
> BTW the convention on Club Runs, is to follow the leader - they generally have a good reason for doing what they do. Participate. Observe and Learn.


I was a member of VCM. Rhyl CC dont have any weekday rides only at the weekend (which I am normally working on).
I am going to try and go to the local race track a few more times in the week.


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## Matthew_T (25 Aug 2013)

Boris Bajic said:


> That sounds a little odd and I'm sorry you had a negative impression of the club ride. Was that your first and last ride or was it just an isolated experience? It may be that the other club members are not nice guys, but if so you're very unlucky. My experience of people in cycling clubs is that they're very welcoming and helpful. My boy (17 at the time) joined a local club and did some TTs. They were just as nice as pie and extremely positive and encouraging.


It wasnt an isolated incident. Most of the riders dont appreciate me taking primary at pinch points or overtaking cars. I also have a tendency to race down hills (but who doesnt?) and take risks on bends.
Apparently riding like I do with club colours on isnt a very good impression of the whole club. And someone said that a driver could see someone wearing the club kit and go after them thinking they were me.

I understand what they were saying so as a result I now have a new kit (as i am no longer a member of the club its not really right to wear the kit).


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## BimblingBee (25 Aug 2013)

Not being funny but you say that the club was antisocial etc... Well if someone came out with me who had your track record and had a headcam and was filming our everymove then I'd be pretty antisocial too! I saw your recent video posted on the FB page of club people in the pub, sorry but that's just odd. Ditch the headcam, chill out and I'm sure you will find people becoming much more friendly.


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## HLaB (25 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> I was a member of VCM. Rhyl CC dont have any weekday rides only at the weekend (which I am normally working on).
> I am going to try and go to the local race track a few more times in the week.


You might find they do actually have weekday rides, just not advertised, its more adhoc: facebook, forum, texts, word of mouth etc every club I have been in have operated that way and its not until you join that you find out.


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## PK99 (25 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> It wasnt an isolated incident. Most of the riders dont appreciate me taking primary at pinch points or overtaking cars. I also have a tendency to race down hills (but who doesnt?) and take risks on bends.
> Apparently riding like I do with club colours on isnt a very good impression of the whole club. And someone said that a driver could see someone wearing the club kit and go after them thinking they were me.
> 
> I understand what they were saying so as a result I now have a new kit (as i am no longer a member of the club its not really right to wear the kit).




If you take risks on a club run, you are risking the safety of all on the run. Racing on club runs is a big bad. 

Try googling "club run etiquette" you will find a whole range of advice from clubs around the world.


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## Powely (25 Aug 2013)

Cunobelin said:


> The key is subtlety... no point at all in confrontation
> 
> If you have a good case of dangerous driving
> 
> ...


 

Will you take the above approach in future? As to me your video came across as you went out looking for someone to confront... the camera, carrying the highway code etc. We all encounter idiots, in all walks of life (and I realise motors v cyclists incidents can have dire consequences) but most of us just shake our heads, be thankful it wasn't worse and get on with our day. I can't help but think you get some enjoyment from 'educating' other road users, however there are better ways to do this than confronting people at the side of the road. If it's a company vehicle, just note the number and write in/send the video and await their response for example. Safe riding.

EDIT: I have just discovered you have Aspergers. I stand by what I said but partially understand why you can't just move on from an incident so easily now. Just be careful out there, confrontation typically only leads to more confrontation and it may just escalate to violence and no one wants to hear that has happened.


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## Hip Priest (25 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> Apparently riding like I do with club colours on isnt a very good impression of the whole club.


 
The club is probably like this place. Some members will like what you do with the camera...etc, and others won't. I guess if some of the senior or influential club members disliked what you do, that may be why you felt the disapproval was widespread.

You seem a nice lad. It's a shame it didn't work out with the club.


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## Boris Bajic (25 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> It wasnt an isolated incident. Most of the riders dont appreciate me taking primary at pinch points or overtaking cars. I also have a tendency to race down hills (but who doesnt?) and take risks on bends.
> Apparently riding like I do with club colours on isnt a very good impression of the whole club. And someone said that a driver could see someone wearing the club kit and go after them thinking they were me.
> 
> I understand what they were saying so as a result I now have a new kit (as i am no longer a member of the club its not really right to wear the kit).


 
This may be indicative of something being slightly fooked in your wider understanding of correct and reasonable road behaviour.

These are people who have been riding at speed, among other cyclists, in traffic on a regular basis for decades. They know what they are doing. They do it for a reason. Clubs tend to have an excellent safety record and tend to be well regarded in their local area.

The leader of a club ride has experience and responsibility in every cell of his or her being. They are leading the ride because they know stuff and can deal calmly with things.

Seriously... Get back to the club, be contrite and get back among them. You do not live in Royston Vasey; these will be nice, reasonable, helpful people.

I do not know the club, but I suspect that if they are an old, established set-up and the cycle-path thing was not an isolated incident and you were doing all that you say you were in terms of you line, your speed and your risk-taking... then you are the one who needs to be contrite.

But do it... Get back among them and learn how it is that they've enjoyed their sport and avoided confrontation for decades.

Was it a bit of an ugly bust-up with the club asking you not to wear their kit any more, or did you just stop going on runs? If you left on good-ish terms, I'd get back in there, switch your ears on and switch your mouth off. Listen, learn and enjoy.

If it ended badly, I'd get back apologise and then listen, respect their ways and learn something while keeping your mouth shut.


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## outlash (25 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> It wasnt an isolated incident. Most of the riders dont appreciate me taking primary at pinch points or overtaking cars. I also have a tendency to race down hills (but who doesnt?) and take risks on bends.
> Apparently riding like I do with club colours on isnt a very good impression of the whole club. And someone said that a driver could see someone wearing the club kit and go after them thinking they were me.


 

So your local club think you're a bit of a liability, you get a fair bit of criticism from people on here and probably elsewhere. See a pattern emerging? 

On my local CC's club runs, you are part of the bunch so you ride appropriately. If you behaved like that with us, you'd get told to knock it off. If you ride like a dick, expect to told you're behaving like one.


Tony.


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## PK99 (25 Aug 2013)

outlash said:


> So your local club think you're a bit of a liability, you get a fair bit of criticism from people on here and probably elsewhere. See a pattern emerging?
> 
> On my local CC's club runs, you are part of the bunch so you ride appropriately. If you behaved like that with us, you'd get told to knock it off. If you ride like a dick, expect to told you're behaving like one.
> 
> ...



When I stated club riding 5/6 years ago, I got some things wrong and was gently upbraided by the Elders of the club, all in a friendly way that I understood. Imagine my contrition when I carelessly overlapped the wheel of the rider in front and brought down the whole ride at 15 mph. shoot happens on club runs if you ride your own style.

When I started riding with a ctc midweek group I rode alongside the leader and was told in no uncertain terms to stop riding so aggressively (ok that particular leader was a bit of a dick, but he was the leader and it was his ride)


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## Gez73 (25 Aug 2013)

"Apparently riding like I do with club colours on isnt a very good impression of the whole club. And someone said that a driver could see someone wearing the club kit and go after them thinking they were me."
Why would a driver 'go after' you? And more importantly why would your club worry about your riding not giving 'a very good impression of the whole club' there's a very clear message here! Do you wear a Cycle Chat jersey? Do you carry a copy of Cyclecraft with your Highway Code?


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## Matthew_T (26 Aug 2013)

BimblingBee said:


> Not being funny but you say that the club was antisocial etc... Well if someone came out with me who had your track record and had a headcam and was filming our everymove then I'd be pretty antisocial too! I saw your recent video posted on the FB page of club people in the pub, sorry but that's just odd. Ditch the headcam, chill out and I'm sure you will find people becoming much more friendly.


I dont film club rides. I actually take the camera off to prove that. Doesnt seem to make a difference though.


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## Kookas (26 Aug 2013)

outlash said:


> So your local club think you're a bit of a liability, you get a fair bit of criticism from people on here and probably elsewhere. See a pattern emerging?
> 
> On my local CC's club runs, you are part of the bunch so you ride appropriately. If you behaved like that with us, you'd get told to knock it off. If you ride like a dick, expect to told you're behaving like one.
> 
> ...


 

To be honest, I'm more inclined to think that these club members are the sort of people who cut up cyclists in their cars and proclaim the infamous BS, 'But I'm a cyclist, too!'

I mean, how do we know that they _know_ what they're doing, and aren't just going on what they _feel_?

For most people, the gut instinct whilst riding is to give priority to cars and let them have their way with you, because you're scared of what might happen if you don't. That would make sense if cars were raging bears, and not humans controlling steel machines. As that's _not _the case, safe cycling often means going against intuition and our 'gut instincts'.

Those club members may well have been riding for longer than I, or even my parents, have been _living_, but if they spent their whole lives wearing their sidewalls out on the kerb, then they're always going to see vehicular cycling as reckless and provocative.

Just like the faces of shock and horror you get every time some randomer finds out you cycled more than 2 miles in one day.

On each of the few club rides that I've gone on, it was pretty obvious that no-one had done any sort of cycle training, or even just read up a bit on best practices. In one case, we had an odd situation where one side of the peloton was on a shared path and the other side was on the road. There was heavy oncoming traffic and absolutely no room for a safe overtake, and yet the riders on the road seemed all too happy to ride perhaps a foot from the pavement (if I'm generous). We had a caravan deliberately rush past giving us only a few inches, with the driver leaning on the horn the whole way. A skilled cyclist wouldn't have given them the room.

The riding here was far from perfect, of course, but taking primary at a pinch point or getting stuck on the road is not something a skilled cyclist should take offence to. I outright refuse to assume that club riders are some sort of authority just by way of being older or longer standing in the club.

Driving was terrible, too. People in this thread are acting like the driver saw Matthew coming and somehow knew him, and took their anger out on him because of his YouTube channel. They didn't - this was just any old cyclist to them. The driver didn't pre-empt Matthew's gesturing and pass him close in advance, either.


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## ufkacbln (26 Aug 2013)

Powely said:


> Will you take the above approach in future? As to me your video came across as you went out looking for someone to confront... the camera, carrying the highway code etc. We all encounter idiots, in all walks of life (and I realise motors v cyclists incidents can have dire consequences) but most of us just shake our heads, be thankful it wasn't worse and get on with our day. I can't help but think you get some enjoyment from 'educating' other road users, however there are better ways to do this than confronting people at the side of the road. If it's a company vehicle, just note the number and write in/send the video and await their response for example. Safe riding.
> 
> EDIT: I have just discovered you have Aspergers. I stand by what I said but partially understand why you can't just move on from an incident so easily now. Just be careful out there, confrontation typically only leads to more confrontation and it may just escalate to violence and no one wants to hear that has happened.


 
Bit of a weird post !!!!!!!



Powely said:


> Will you take the above approach in future?


 
Yep - absolutely. Making a company aware of teh actions of their employees is entirely correct, and the responsible way to deal with such driving



> As to me your video came across as you went out looking for someone to confront... the camera, carrying the highway code etc.


 
I have never carried a Highway code and what on earth leads you to the conclusion that I am looking for someone to confront?

Let me remind you of teh first line of my post to which you have replied:



> The key is subtlety... no point at all in confrontation


 
As for the video........... How did you come to such a learned and concise opinion of something that doesn't actually exist?

The video is confidential between myself and the company involved and not in the public domain so you are voicing an opinion of something that you have not seen!




> We all encounter idiots, in all walks of life (and I realise motors v cyclists incidents can have dire consequences) but most of us just shake our heads, be thankful it wasn't worse and get on with our day. I can't help but think you get some enjoyment from 'educating' other road users, however there are better ways to do this than confronting people at the side of the road. If it's a company vehicle, just note the number and write in/send the video and await their response for example. Safe riding.


 
Which is exactly what I did and you have taken exception complaining that such an action is confrontational and "looking for someone to confront".




> EDIT: I have just discovered you have Aspergers. I stand by what I said but partially understand why you can't just move on from an incident so easily now. Just be careful out there, confrontation typically only leads to more confrontation and it may just escalate to violence and no one wants to hear that has happened.


 

Again a bizarre conclusion and I would again love an explanation how you came to this diagnosis.... was it on the evidence of the video that you haven't seen?

I think the best thing to do is delete your post and replace it with something that actually approaches reality?[/QUOTE]


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## PaulSB (26 Aug 2013)

Cunobelin I think Powely has you confused with Matthew_T


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## PaulSB (26 Aug 2013)

The more I read this thread the more it becomes obvious there is one answer and one solution. In every situation Matthew insists and justifies why he is in the right. Until he learns this may not be the case little will change. 

The CC situation is the opposite of my experience and his riding style as he described it, is not what I would expect to see on a club ride. Taking primary etc. applies more to individual riding in my view. My own riding style varies according to whether I'm with the club or solo. The senior guys in the club take the lead, the domestiques follow!!! 

The bus driver experience is very similar. The close pass was poor driving but far from the worst I've experienced. Hunting down the driver etc. is confrontational. If approached in a similar manner I'm not sure I would act entirely reasonably, it could well depend on the sort of day I was having. Indicating I'd lose my job would not necessarily elicit a good response. We all like to think we would respond calmly and rationally in such situations. I know I may not and so if abused by a driver I simply keep quiet. 

I've visited Rhyll several times and ridden through twice. Coming from a small Lancashire town, but located in a more populous area, of similar size I find it difficult to understand how one cyclist can encounter so many poor drivers in a relative short experience of cycling.

The world is always going to win in this situation. I'm afraid this young man needs to heed a lot of good advice here, calm down and appreciate cycling for what it is - FUN. I'd probably give up if I had the same level of stress on my bike.


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## ComedyPilot (26 Aug 2013)

PaulSB said:


> The more I read this thread ......blah, blah, blah.............Coming from a small Lancashire town, but located in a more populous area, of similar size I find it difficult to understand how one cyclist can encounter so many poor drivers in a relative short experience of cycling. ..............blah, blah, blah................


 
FWIW, I live in a very rural area, and the vast majority of the incidents I have been subjected to have all happened on the same 1 mile stretch of country A road. The first time these incidents happened they caught me off guard. Now I anticipate them and can take avoiding action easily. So, I for one do understand how Matthew can encounter more than his fair share of dickheads drivers.


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## ufkacbln (26 Aug 2013)

PaulSB said:


> Cunobelin I think Powely has you confused with Matthew_T


 
Possibly, still needs deleting though.....


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## Boris Bajic (26 Aug 2013)

Matthew,

The (concerned) members of these pages who advise you to wind your neck in are wrong.

The members of the established cycling club who admonished you for your riding are wrong.

It's clearly not a matter of you ignoring or disagreeing with constructive criticism and advice.

I am in no doubt that you are absolutely right and everyone else is utterly wrong.

I think you are quite right to have left the club so you can ride in your own, individual style. What do they know?

Please ignore any advice I've given you. I am wrong. Listen only to people who say you're right.

I've seen your videos and you are absolutely right in every one of them.

I liked the one where you admonished a woman who swore in front of a child. I admire the way you kept responding to her right down the street. I think you showed her who was right there, and no mistake!

I loved the one where you poke fun at two club members on a ride with you for nearly having a coming-together on a roundabout. They'll have had a hearty chuckle about that. "Ha ha ha ha", they'll have said. "Ha ha ha ha".

I will study your entire Youtube channel in my search for enlightenment, joy and wisdom. Do not for one moment believe that viewers watch your channel just to see a _Mr Angry-Boy Shouty-Shouty Comedy of the Absurd_. They watch because they believe you are right and good and noble. And you are!

Anyone who says you just go out looking for situations and then wind them up to the maximum to get footage is so utterly wrong that we need a new word to say how wrong they are. It is truth and justice you seek. They who see that not are blind. Blind and wrong. Blind and wrong and stupid.

I see that you do not want to be a Youtube slebbrity. It is clear that the thought never entered your head. You seek confrontation only in your quest to educate other road users. That is clear. It cannot be otherwise. The mighty shall be mighty and the right shall be righteous, or something like that.

It is right that you were critical of that attention-seeking loon TrafficDroid... He is looney-tunes. He is nothing like you. You are right and everyone else is wrong. He is wrong. We are wrong. I am the walrus.

It is clear that you do not want to be Judge Dredd or Superman or that one with the surf board. In fact the word is that they all want to be you. Except the one on the surf board, but he's a bit odd anyway.

None of these awful things would have happened to you if the drivers hadn't passed you wearing loud shirts or smiled at you with teeth missing or overtaken you on an unbroken line when you were doing over 17mph. Or been Welsh, which I gather you have a tiny issue with.

We are all wrong and you are right. Keep on going exactly as you are. Everything will be perfect forever and you will save us all and it is like, wow!


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## Spinney (26 Aug 2013)

Such subtle sarcasm ...


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## Pieface (26 Aug 2013)

Going by his



> I see that you do not want to be a Youtube slebbrity. It is clear that the thought never entered your head.


 
Which I know is sarcasm.

I never knew that Matthew posted a video up of his 1 million view, and making sure to link it to other videos based on them being his most popular. If this is all based on evidence why should he care?


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## Origamist (26 Aug 2013)

Time to lock this thread?


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## BentMikey (26 Aug 2013)

Don't talk to drivers, Matthew. It's rarely productive. Use your cameras, fine, but bring the consequences if needed afterwards, via the company.


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## glasgowcyclist (26 Aug 2013)

Origamist said:


> Time to lock this thread?


 
Why?

GC


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## Kbrook (26 Aug 2013)

Is that him in the video, wish I'd not been quite as nice... Christ what a k£&b


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## Origamist (26 Aug 2013)

@GC, I don't claim to be prescient, but I fear the thread is about to plunge into an irretrievable tailspin. Although arguably, it did that many pages ago.


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## Kbrook (26 Aug 2013)

I see Matthew has posted another video on YouTube about a nothing conversation with a couple by a railway crossing. Perfectly nice couple, perfectly nice conversation, posted today by the looks of it. Two questions, 
1. What the hell is the point of posting it
2. Did the couple give you permission to post it, I suspect not. 

You really are an annoying little boy.


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## Pale Rider (26 Aug 2013)

Origamist said:


> @GC, I don't claim to be prescient, but I fear the thread is about to plunge into an irretrievable tailspin.


 

Mayday! mayday!


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## Origamist (26 Aug 2013)

Pale Rider said:


> Mayday! mayday!



Your distress signal has been registered, PR. CC's fun and friendly online community will save the day, I'm sure. Kbrook is personally in charge of the salvage, sorry, rescue mission!


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## BimblingBee (26 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> I dont film club rides. I actually take the camera off to prove that. Doesnt seem to make a difference though.




View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkMOqZmMRdY&feature=youtu.be

I've seen them, and this is off the FB page.


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## sickboyblue (26 Aug 2013)

Kbrook said:


> I see Matthew has posted another video on YouTube about a nothing conversation with a couple by a railway crossing. Perfectly nice couple, perfectly nice conversation, posted today by the looks of it. Two questions,
> 1. What the hell is the point of posting it
> 2. Did the couple give you permission to post it, I suspect not.
> 
> You really are an annoying little boy.


And you're a bit of a cockwomble..


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## roadrash (26 Aug 2013)

i see a lot of people offering mathew advice, .........again 

and i also see that if mathew bashing was an olympic sport , then quite a few on here would be gold medalists .


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## User6179 (26 Aug 2013)

Boris Bajic said:


> Matthew,
> 
> The (concerned) members of these pages who advise you to wind your neck in are wrong.
> 
> ...


 
You do realise people with aspergers find it hard to understand sarcasm !?


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## Matthew_T (26 Aug 2013)

Eddy said:


> You do realise people with aspergers find it hard to understand sarcasm !?


For the first half of that post I was having trouble.


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## Matthew_T (26 Aug 2013)

BimblingBee said:


> View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkMOqZmMRdY&feature=youtu.be
> 
> I've seen them, and this is off the FB page.



That wasnt me who filmed it. I actually star in the video itself.


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## Matthew_T (26 Aug 2013)

Kbrook said:


> 2. Did the couple give you permission to post it, I suspect not.


I am not even going to go down this line. You know the comment is wrong.


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## glasgowcyclist (26 Aug 2013)

Origamist said:


> @GC, I don't claim to be prescient, but I fear the thread is about to plunge into an irretrievable tailspin. Although arguably, it did that many pages ago.


 
The fair way to deal with that would be for the people spoiling the thread to cease. It's unreasonable to lock a thread to constructive comment for the sake of a few who don't know how to, or rather choose not to, follow the forum guidelines.

GC


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## Kbrook (26 Aug 2013)

Matthew... I am sorry why is my comment wrong, did they give you permission? Why is that wrong, they might not want to be seen together for a variety of reasons? Please explain why its wrong that I ask that question , I genuinely don't understand. It may be me being thick, in which case I am sorry, but I would not want a private, if inoffensive conversation on the Internet.


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## BimblingBee (26 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> That wasnt me who filmed it. I actually star in the video itself.



Ok, what about this one? It was you that said you don't film them.


View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0U1vpCcYNE


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## Matthew_T (26 Aug 2013)

BimblingBee said:


> Ok, what about this one? It was you that said you don't film them.
> 
> 
> View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0U1vpCcYNE



That was a year ago. It even says in the title.


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## Matthew_T (26 Aug 2013)

Kbrook said:


> Matthew... I am sorry why is my comment wrong, did they give you permission? Why is that wrong, they might not want to be seen together for a variety of reasons? Please explain why its wrong that I ask that question , I genuinely don't understand. It may be me being thick, in which case I am sorry, but I would not want a private, if inoffensive conversation on the Internet.


It was an incorrect statement in the sense that I dont need their permission. And for what reason would I be denied? They knew I was filming and did not say anything personal. I said more things which were personal (that I probably shouldnt have said).
If they are together in public then they have no expectation of privacy. Its really that simple. Irrelevant if they dont want to be seen together. If they are doing something that naughty (I understand what you mean by 'together') then they shouldnt be messing about with other people lives.


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## Hip Priest (26 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> That was a year ago. It even says in the title.


 

It says 26-5-13. Three months ago.


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## Boris Bajic (26 Aug 2013)

Eddy said:


> You do realise people with aspergers find it hard to understand sarcasm !?


 
I wrote some reasonable, considered and practical advice earlier in the thread (#361).

It was 'liked' by the OP (whatever that means), who then said he only confronts other people where he feels it necessary to educate them (I paraphrase).

My piece of sarcasm was more a flag of surrender. The OP seems to cherry-pick advice and be fuelled largely by the misplaced enthusiastic support of some who believe him to be a courageous herald of a new tomorrow.

I do not. I find his actions (almost all that he films) to be gauche, egocentric, ill-considered, often ill-mannered and always more inclined to increase rather than decrease blood pressure.

I and some others have been pleading with him to back off and stop making a clown of himself for months. The large number of views on Youtube are freakshow views (a youtube hangover from Victorian society).

This young man will get hurt or worse. Some on here egg him on and support him.

I was being sarcastic (childishly so) and was also waving a flag of surrender. I am perfectly happy to be wrong, but I find the OP's behaviour disturbing. Others do not.

I am not a doctor and know almost nothing of Asperger's. Matthew, the post in question was childishly sarcastic. This means that I think the opposite of every opinion I give in the post.

This post is not sarcastic. I seriously think you should take the advice from the club you left, get back and ride with them, try to stop your grotesque head-shaking, finger-wagging, rule-preaching, interventionalist attitude and stop confusing the number of Youtube viewers you achieve with some barmy sort of acceptance and inclusion.

Your friends are VC Melyd and other local riders, not fellow moon-barking would-be cam-slebs on CC.

I surrender. Both in his matter and in my fruitless attempts to dig up an apple root in the garden. I've stuffed the cavity below it with dry wood and will burn it. I cannot dig another ounce of soil or cut another millimetre of tree root.


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## PK99 (26 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> I
> If they are together in public then they have no expectation of privacy. *Its really that simple.* I.


 
Actually Matthew it is *not* so simple - in might be in US law but in the uk OFCOM guidance clearly states that there is to some degree an expectation of privacy




> Legitimate expectations of privacy will vary according to the place and nature of the information, activity or condition in question, the extent to which it is in the public domain (if at all) and whether the individual concerned is already in the public eye. There may be circumstances where people can reasonably expect privacy even in a public place.


 

http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/broadcasting/broadcast-codes/broadcast-code/privacy/


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## jarlrmai (26 Aug 2013)

I don't think members of the public are beholden to OFCOM as they are not a communications industry member.


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## BimblingBee (26 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> That was a year ago. It even says in the title.



Ok, well you said you don't film rides etc and basically slated the club you were a member of... Yet... there are two easily seen videos put up by you, dated recently as well as another saying how amazed you are at reaching 1 million views whilst dressed in this club kit and making direct reference to why you reached that many!

On a side note if you have a potential audience of 1 million then you may want to think carefully about naming a local coach company as having crap coaches too, unless of course you have proof?


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## Matthew_T (26 Aug 2013)

BimblingBee said:


> On a side note if you have a potential audience of 1 million then you may want to think carefully about naming a local coach company as having crap coaches too, unless of course you have proof?


They are fully aware of my complaints to the company and have just ignored them. That particular bus company has some very dodgey driving in it. I have even uploaded a video dedicated just to them, illustrating my concerns. Have they apologised or even tried to make a resolution? No. They just started making accusations and fraying away from the matter at hand which is their drivers.


----------



## gaz (26 Aug 2013)

23 pages on this? Jesus people, go and ride your bloody bikes!


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## Hip Priest (26 Aug 2013)

gaz said:


> 23 pages on this? Jesus people, go and ride your bloody bikes!



I can't. I've developed a phobia of buses.


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## Pieface (26 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> They are fully aware of my complaints to the company and have just ignored them. That particular bus company has some very dodgey driving in it. I have even uploaded a video dedicated just to them, illustrating my concerns. Have they apologised or even tried to make a resolution? No. They just started making accusations and fraying away from the matter at hand which is their drivers.


Then report it to the police if the driving is so bad. All it is now is a matter of opinion, which can pave way for libel proceedings if they so wish.


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## User6179 (26 Aug 2013)

Boris Bajic said:


> I wrote some reasonable, considered and practical advice earlier in the thread (#361).
> 
> It was 'liked' by the OP (whatever that means), who then said he only confronts other people where he feels it necessary to educate them (I paraphrase).
> 
> ...


 
I was not criticising your post but just pointing out that it would be confusing for matthew.

On the subject of the tree root, tried burning one out once and failed , you need to dig a trench around the stump and cut all the roots as you go ,this should leave you with a giant hole which looks like a bomb has went off in your garden.


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## Boris Bajic (26 Aug 2013)

Eddy said:


> I was not criticising your post but just pointing out that it would be confusing for matthew.
> 
> On the subject of the tree root, tried burning one out once and failed , you need to dig a trench around the stump and cut all the roots as you go ,this should leave you with a giant hole which looks like a bomb has went off in your garden.


 
Ha ha.. Thanks for the root advice. I lied. It isn't an apple, but a purple-leafed plum-cherry. It is very old and has the most outrageous root system. It seems out of all proportion with the size of the tree, which was about 15 feet to the trunk top with a crown maybe 15 feet across and a height just under roof-ridge height.

I usually dig a circular trench and work round the roots as per your advice, but I am older and this tree is big. I no longer have that special mumbo that lets you swing a fork, spade, axe or similar at below-ground level to any effect.

In the end, our elder son and I got under it, stuffed the vault we'd dug with sawn boughs from the tree and torched the lot with a little petrol to help it.

Lovely red-glowing fire going in the hollow now and it wobbles a little when shoved. I think it will be nicely cooked in the morning. I took the trunk down to 5 feet, so it won't hit anything if it falls.

Thanks again for the advice. I've decided I'm now too old to lift tree roots alone.


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## Origamist (26 Aug 2013)

glasgowcyclist said:


> The fair way to deal with that would be for the people spoiling the thread to cease. It's unreasonable to lock a thread to constructive comment for the sake of a few who don't know how to, or rather choose not to, follow the forum guidelines.
> 
> GC



Quite a few threads have been closed that contain constructive criticism as well as abuse in the past.

Anyway, my own personal take on when a thread should be nuked is when Boris' word count gets into five figures, BimblingBee embeds his third video from Matthew's YouTube channel, Reg quotes a Road Traffic Act, Potsy "likes" one of my posts and I start pontificating.


----------



## Boris Bajic (26 Aug 2013)

Origamist said:


> Quite a few threads have been closed that contain constructive criticism as well as abuse in the past.
> 
> Anyway, my own personal take on when a thread should be nuked is when* Boris' word count gets into five figures*, BimblingBee embeds his third video from Matthew's YouTube channel and I start pontificating.


 
This is deeply unfair. It takes me several thousand words to say 'good morning'. I am not as others.

I think you ought to lock a thread when it diverts into a discussion about how to lift the root of a felled fruit tree.

The fire seems to be doing the trick. I love the smell of lazy woodsmoke across a summer garden in the dark of a rural night.

Good evening.


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## lukesdad (26 Aug 2013)

The fire seems to be doing the trick. I love the smell of lazy woodsmoke across a summer garden in the dark of a rural night.
Thats the roof burning Boris.


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## Powely (26 Aug 2013)

Cunobelin said:


> Bit of a weird post !!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My post was directed at the original poster. I was suggesting they took your approach in future!


----------



## BlackPanther (26 Aug 2013)

RWright said:


> You can try to say the horn is for safety but that is BS and you know it, it is for aggression, pure and simple.


 
Whaaaaaa? In the 4 years/20,000 miles I've commuted, my horn has saved me 3 or 4 times from being completely taken out by drivers emerging from side roads. It's also stopped one driver (who was looking at the wrong traffic lights) from continuing after setting off through the red light. When I say 'saved me' these were occasions where I genuinely believe the cars wouldn't have stopped as they had simply failed to see me.

I sincerely hope you're not saying that I use my horn for aggression as I would seriously take offence! (In fact I find it offensive for someone to say that about any rider.)

We all have a choice of equipment that we feel is necessary for a safe ride, and I would never want to be in a position where I didn't have a final throw of the dice to prevent serious injury/death. Yes, I'm sure there are horn happy riders out there, but we should steer clear of tarring all horn users with the same brush.......we have enough of that coming from drivers branding us all as lunatic, red light jumping, non helmet wearing, lycra clad, non driving losers who shouldn't be on the roads as we don't pay 'road tax'.


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## Glow worm (26 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> For the first half of that post I was having trouble.


 
The rest of us were having trouble with all of it!


----------



## PK99 (26 Aug 2013)

BlackPanther said:


> I sincerely hope you're not saying that I use my horn for aggression as I would seriously take offence!
> 
> '.


 
he wan't he was saying Matt does - evidence his many close pass videos where the horn is sounded AFTER the pass is complete.


----------



## Pieface (26 Aug 2013)

BlackPanther said:


> Whaaaaaa? In the 4 years/20,000 miles I've commuted, my horn has saved me 3 or 4 times from being completely taken out by drivers emerging from side roads. It's also stopped one driver (who was looking at the wrong traffic lights) from continuing after setting off through the red light. When I say 'saved me' these were occasions where I genuinely believe the cars wouldn't have stopped as they had simply failed to see me.
> 
> I sincerely hope you're not saying that I use my horn for aggression as I would seriously take offence! (In fact I find it offensive for someone to say that about any rider.)
> 
> We all have a choice of equipment that we feel is necessary for a safe ride, and I would never want to be in a position where I didn't have a final throw of the dice to prevent serious injury/death. Yes, I'm sure there are horn happy riders out there, but we should steer clear of tarring all horn users with the same brush.......we have enough of that coming from drivers branding us all as lunatic, red light jumping, non helmet wearing, lycra clad, non driving losers who shouldn't be on the roads as we don't pay 'road tax'.


I'm sure he means Matt and not everyone who uses a horn


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## PK99 (26 Aug 2013)

PK99 said:


> I've said something similar before. In helmet debates there is a claim that wearing a helmet leads to risk compensation/perceived invulnerability. Some helmet cammers seem to exhibit a similar effect (note, some not all), and, rather than committing to the negotiation of space that is necessary out on the roads, and cycling assertively yet defensively, they cycle in an aggressive way to claim their rights on the road - confident that if they do come a cropper they will have video evidence to prove they were in the right. In doing so, they themselves exhibit some very dubious cycling behaviours. T*he Droid is a prime example, protected in his cocoon of cameras, he wanders randomly across lanes and then complains when drivers mis-read his intentions, he splits lanes by riding along the white dividing line and complains when passed on either or both sides.* Others, eg Gaz, exhibit exemplary cycling behaviour from which we can all learn, and has the honesty to admit to his own goofs.


 

You could not make it up...I post the above comment about Droid and then he posts his latest Youtube vid> 
View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oled9yaCoM

watch from around 1:10 in..... Glad to see comments there criticising his positioning


----------



## Hip Priest (26 Aug 2013)

PK99 said:


> You could not make it up...I post the above comment about Droid and then he posts his latest Youtube vid>
> View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oled9yaCoM
> 
> watch from around 1:10 in..... Glad to see comments there criticising his positioning





I feel a bit sorry for Droid.

The accident he had obviously affected him badly, and I genuinely think he may be suffering psychologically from the after-effects. Whichever way you slice it, it isn't normal to have all those cameras or hand out calling cards. 

In that incident, the taxi driver seemed reasonable. Not a cry baby, as the disturbing soundtrack suggested.


----------



## PK99 (26 Aug 2013)

Hip Priest said:


> *I feel a bit sorry for Droid.*
> 
> *The accident he had obviously affected him badly, and I genuinely think he may be suffering psychologically from the after-effects.* Whichever way you slice it, it isn't normal to have all those cameras or hand out calling cards.
> 
> In that incident, the taxi driver seemed reasonable. Not a cry baby, as the disturbing soundtrack suggested.


 

me too, PTSD?

I think he needs help.


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## Matthew_T (26 Aug 2013)

Hip Priest said:


> The accident he had obviously affected him badly, and I genuinely think he may be suffering psychologically from the after-effects. Whichever way you slice it, it isn't normal to have all those cameras or hand out* calling cards*.


I must admit. I do carry cards with my YT username on it. Not for drivers, but for people that I meet. Unfortunately I havent had the opportunity to give one out yet.
The cards are not designed for bad drivers or people who I argue with, its for nice people that I meet. I got the idea from Droid giving his out to people.


----------



## Cycling Dan (26 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> I must admit. I do carry cards with my YT username on it. Not for drivers, but for people that I meet. Unfortunately I havent had the opportunity to give one out yet.
> The cards are not designed for bad drivers or people who I argue with, its for nice people that I meet. I got the idea from Droid giving his out to people.


 
.......................


----------



## Cycling Dan (26 Aug 2013)

Hip Priest said:


> I feel a bit sorry for Droid.
> 
> The accident he had obviously affected him badly, and I genuinely think he may be suffering psychologically from the after-effects. Whichever way you slice it, it isn't normal to have all those cameras or hand out calling cards.
> 
> In that incident, the taxi driver seemed reasonable. Not a cry baby, as the disturbing soundtrack suggested.


 
The red cards and handing out bad driver droid cards is OTT. I think he takes it too far all of the time. I think its to play to his youtube audience. However that being said some of the driving is ridiculous like his latest bus one. It puts the drivers in mats video among the angels. For cameras I think 3 is the perfect number 4 being the ultimate push.

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W__WqLdHpz4


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## Hip Priest (26 Aug 2013)

Cycling Dan said:


> The red cards and handing out bad driver droid cards is OTT. I think he takes it too far all of the time. I think its to play to his youtube audience. However that being said some of the driving is ridiculous like his latest bus one. It puts the drivers in mats video among the angels. For cameras I think 3 is the perfect number 4 being the ultimate push.
> 
> View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W__WqLdHpz4




Jesus, that's an awful pass.


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## PK99 (26 Aug 2013)

Cycling Dan said:


> The red cards and handing out bad driver droid cards is OTT.


 
How about this red card he hands out to the cab following him @ 3:20 in

Is that the sort of cycling behaviour we would like to endorse?

Droid, like Matt, thinks he is doing no wrong.

*@Matthew_T , *what do you think of Droid doing this crap?



View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oC2t9lD12U


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## Cycling Dan (26 Aug 2013)

PK99 said:


> How about this red card he hands out to the cab following him @ 3:20 in
> 
> Is that the sort of cycling behaviour we would like to endorse?
> 
> ...




Well.... the red card does put across clearly in a calm manner what he thinks of this persons driving. Personally I think its OTT but I guess its better than him shouting at drivers among other things which undoubtedly could escalate a situation well pass a reasonable point. I have seen videos where that's enough for someone to stop and engage in a shouting match camera or no camera. 
Most of the time I don't see any specifically wrong with his cycling.
When you say "crap" what specifically are you relating too.
Note: The taxi driver is a nobber.


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## PK99 (27 Aug 2013)

Cycling Dan said:


> Well.... the red card does put across clearly in a calm manner what he thinks of this persons driving. Personally I think its OTT but I guess its better than him shouting at drivers among other things. Most of the time I don't see any specifically wrong with his cycling.


 

and where is Droid looking? is his attention focussed on the child about to step out into the road in front of him? Or on the red card and the car behind.

Watch the image on Matt's head cam on many of his videos, he give a very long look at the driver behind, or who has turned off instead of the road ahead while himself riding on at pace.

Each of them has too much focus on the camera (Ha!) and their future up load instead of the road ahead.


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## Cycling Dan (27 Aug 2013)

PK99 said:


> *and where is Droid looking? is his attention focussed on the child about to step out into the road in front of him? Or on the red card and the car behind.*
> 
> Watch the image on Matt's head cam on many of his videos, he give a very long look at the driver behind, or who has turned off instead of the road ahead while himself riding on at pace.
> 
> Each of them has too much focus on the camera (Ha!) and their future up load instead of the road ahead.


 

A driver turns over the station on the radio or looks in their wing mirror, attention is diverted. It is implausible to expect one to divert 100% solid attention to that of which is ahead of them all of the time. You pick you're moments having considered all other plausible risks.
Naturally when someone toots at me I look behind to see what they want. He managed to pull out his red card as well.

Checking over the video no one was crossing so unless I missed this person, I find the point invalid. Mainly due to the fact that he well could have looked forward to monitor in front of him to check for risks then proceeded to give the red card. The camera does not show where his eyes are looking so this is all speculation. On top of that even if he were to look down what is in front of him very well could still remain within his peripheral vision . Unless you of course are going to make the point that one should not look anywhere other than in front of them in case of a random child is about to step out.
If you even want to travel BS alley he could have used the time while giving the red card to assess the situation with the taxi driver and to decide what the next best action is to possibly improve the situation.
The same principle of your argument could be applied to a situation where a rider shoulder checks to change lanes and a random mythical kid runs out in front. So do you expect that he should just change lane without looking in case this speculative child runs out? The answer is of course not.

I'm not a fan of the droid but your point is feeble boarderline stupid.


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## AndyRM (27 Aug 2013)

24 pages and we've lost the plot. Good stuff.

I will help derail us further by chucking in my opinion of TrafficDroid. He's a weapons grade fool of a cyclist. If you are spending more money on cameras than you are on your bike it's time for a word with yourself.

Mr. T, please do not give out cards with your YouTube name on. It further discredits your arguments against bad driving and looks rather like petty sensationalism.


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## Sara_H (27 Aug 2013)

I like the Droid, I find him very amusing.


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## ianrauk (27 Aug 2013)

PK99 said:


> How about this red card he hands out to the cab following him @ 3:20 in
> 
> Is that the sort of cycling behaviour we would like to endorse?
> 
> ...




wtf's the deal with the camera on the stick? The guy is nuts.


----------



## Origamist (27 Aug 2013)

Just when it seemed that the thread was petering out after Boris' fire, we have yet more helmet/foot/thigh/ear/ footage to pore over - hoorah!

Crazy thought: if people spent just a quarter of the time analyzing and "constructively criticizing" other peoples' riding and driving as they did examining their own behaviour on the roads, there would be far less hypocrisy and cavilling on threads like these and, who knows, they might actually become safer road users themselves!


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## Origamist (27 Aug 2013)

ianrauk said:


> wtf's the deal with the camera on the stick? The guy is nuts.


 
That's nothing, Ian. Gaz had an elective eye operation last week and replaced his eyeball with a nano camera on a telescopic stalk. It films at 4K, has a 360 degree viewing angle, infra-red capability and a 1000 x zoom. He can even see through tinted windows and stare into the soul of the driver that cut him up...


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## ianrauk (27 Aug 2013)

Origamist said:


> That's nothing, Ian. Gaz had an elective eye operation last week and replaced his eyeball with a nano camera on a telescopic stalk. It films at 4K, has a 360 degree viewing angle, infra-red capability and a 1000 x zoom. He can even see through tinted windows and stare into the soul of the driver that cut him up...


 


If you had said that about the 'droid I might have believed you...


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## Monsieur (27 Aug 2013)

Seems like the days when people went out for a cycle to enjoy the ride are long gone.
There's a friend of a friend of mine who rides a BMW RT motorbike - gets dressed up to look as close to a police officer as he can without having the word 'police' on his jacket. He actually rides out just so he can berate others for their driving and purposelly (sic) looks out for traffic issues.

His name is Richard. Quite apt really. I'm only surprised that he hasn't been punched in the face before now.

Ring any bells?


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## Boris Bajic (27 Aug 2013)

Tree down. Lovely smell of wood ash across the dew-soaked lawn just after dawn today. I rushed out to see like a child at Christmas.

The fire is out, but has burnt a perfect, vaulted dome into the underside of the trunk. I feel slightly sorry for the tree, but it was diseased and was close enough to buildings to be an issue.

For what it's worth, I think TrafficDroid is barmy and I do not buy the stuff about the crash as a sort of transformation like Halle Berry's fall in Catwoman. We've all been hurled across roads and landed to the sound of a hurty breaking thing. It doesn't make us fantasise about becoming Robocop. The crash (if it ever happened) might just be a sympathy-invoking cover story for fruitcake behaviour.

I love the fact that Matthew_T criticises TrafficDroid for essentially doing what he does but without the Welsh lilt. But I hate the fact that I'll have to cut up my tree trunk where it lies.


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## jarlrmai (27 Aug 2013)

So you look at the droid and Gaz's setups and they look crazy, but if you break it down you see the reasoning behind the decisions made if you are committing yourself to trying to get Roadsafe good enough evidence to give warnings and remember that this is a campaign, that these people are trying genuinely to make a difference to the way drivers drive around cyclists using Roadsafe as the weapon of choice.

Multiple good quality cameras and angles, looks crazy but the reasons are based on things that have been used to throw out the video evidence when they have tried to get action on dangerous driving.

1. Police etc asking them to prove it was them in the video, leads to the pole cams to show them in the footage and and rear cams show the bike and tailgating.
2. The wide angle lenses on action cams make overtakes look further away than they actually are so you need to show the bike and road in the footage to show how close things are.
3. Cameras need to be high enough quality to show faces of drivers to prove who was driving and show number plates involved.

Red cards and notes with YouTube channel links seem stupid and nerdy right?

1. Avoids the roadside arguing that gets you nowhere, drivers drive off, get aggressive, wind up windows (remember you are trying to change attitudes, if you let things go nothing changes ever)
2. YouTube links means that the driver knows they are online and can come on the internet and see it from a cyclists perspective and the comments mean they can try and justify and have the actual law given to them (mostly they just show themselves to be ignorant bigots)

Gaz and the Droid are backed up by Roadsafe they know they can submit footage and get results, the rest of us are not. Most of there encounters take place on busy London streets with CCTV and thousands of people milling around as well.

Gaz seems to upload rarely these days, whereas the Droid seems to have gone zero tolerance

Matt is riding in a different world to this and thanks to this forum has toned it down a lot but yeah he needs to not be confronting like this it's counterproductive.


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## Matthew_T (27 Aug 2013)

AndyRM said:


> Mr. T, please do not give out cards with your YouTube name on. It further discredits your arguments against bad driving and looks rather like petty sensationalism.


Did you even read my reasons for the cards?
In an arguement I am very unlikely to even remember the cards never mind giving them to someone. The bus driver incident: I had plenty of time to give them a card but just never because it didnt cross my mind and I forgot.
In calm situations talking with friendly people who ask about the camera, etc then I might remember to give them a card and suggest that they view themselves online.
I dont go handing out cards like the Droid, but he influenced the idea.


----------



## jarlrmai (27 Aug 2013)

I'm interested in reason why the cards discredit arguments against bad driving?

other than some sort of school ground "don't telling on people to teacher" attitude?


----------



## AndyRM (27 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> Did you even read my reasons for the cards?
> In an arguement I am very unlikely to even remember the cards never mind giving them to someone. The bus driver incident: I had plenty of time to give them a card but just never because it didnt cross my mind and I forgot.
> In calm situations talking with friendly people who ask about the camera, etc then I might remember to give them a card and suggest that they view themselves online.
> I dont go handing out cards like the Droid, but he influenced the idea.



I will confess that I did not. Like a lot of folk on this thread, I had lost the plot and was merely skimming through, amazed at the level to which everything had descended. I fully appreciate my own part in this, and will try to avoid this section of the Internet soon.

However, my point about the cards is still a valid one, I think. Why would you suggest that total strangers might want to view innocuous footage of themselves on YouTube? You didn't offer a card to the couple at the train track you recently filmed, which makes me wonder about your true motivations.

Before I'm accused of bullying or abuse, there is no malice behind my comments. I'm just trying to understand your viewpoint, as well as offering mine.


----------



## AndyRM (27 Aug 2013)

jarlrmai said:


> I'm interested in reason why the cards discredit arguments against bad driving?
> 
> other than some sort of school ground "don't telling on people to teacher" attitude?



Nothing of the sort.

For me, it smacks of self promotion on YouTube, rather than actually addressing poor driving. You can be paid for subscribers and views, hence my question about Mr. T's reason for the cards, which as he said, and I have now realised, he doesn't even hand out to poor drivers.


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## Matthew_T (27 Aug 2013)

AndyRM said:


> However, my point about the cards is still a valid one, I think. Why would you suggest that total strangers might want to view innocuous footage of themselves on YouTube? You didn't offer a card to the couple at the train track you recently filmed, which makes me wonder about your true motivations.


I didnt have any on me when I was with the couple. I dont take them with me when I am commuting to work, because I rarely meet people (that and they wouldnt fit in my pocket).
The cards are not a necessity. I havent seen any difference in my behaviour by taking them out with me.


----------



## AndyRM (27 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> I didnt have any on me when I was with the couple. I dont take them with me when I am commuting to work, because I rarely meet people (that and they wouldnt fit in my pocket).
> The cards are not a necessity. I havent seen any difference in my behaviour by taking them out with me.



So, in other words, they are pointless? I'm not trying to be flippant, but based on your comment, they serve no real purpose.

Imagine a sort of reverse situation. You have a bit of a 'mare at a junction whilst cycling (I've had a couple recently). An irate driver pulls you up, tells you how you'll be all over YouTube and issues you with a card containing the address. Would you be likely to consider how you could have improved your cycling, or dismiss the driver as a tw@ and tell your mates how drivers, collectively, are senseless d!cks?

For clarity, I think there are several of your videos which show poor driving, which is worth highlighting. This is why I feel that uploading videos such as your original are counter-productive.


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## jarlrmai (27 Aug 2013)

No-one is making money from YouTube views on bad driving.

If a driver did that to me I would certainly visit the YouTube link and have a look and then address the issues with the comments field, I would probably link it here to get support if I felt I was not breaking any laws. Because I understand why it is done this way as it is not practical to have a debate at a junction on a road with the adrenaline going from a near miss. If I was in error and I have had nightmares at junctions too and I always apologise to drivers, I would apologise to drivers on Youtube as well.

People have done the whole pull out a phone and "video the cyclist with the camera see how they like it thing" here's the thing I would encourage drivers to do this with dashcams (obviously using a mobile is illegal if you are driving) if they feel cyclists are breaking the laws, however every time I've seen an upload from a driver (the one in Australia and there was another one I can't remember where it was from) the reason they were upset was because they did not know or understand the laws anf in both cases the cyclist was cycling lawfully.

Certainly a few riders including myself have learnt from watching our own footage where we have made mistakes (i'm not talking purely about not taking primary etc)

So again why are the cards discrediting it, given that the YouTube views are not making anyone any money.


----------



## AndyRM (27 Aug 2013)

jarlrmai said:


> No-one is making money from YouTube views on bad driving.
> 
> If a driver did that to me I would certainly visit the YouTube link and have a look and then address the issues with the comments field, I would probably link it here to get support if I felt I was not breaking any laws. Because I understand why it is done this way as it is not practical to have a debate at a junction on a road with the adrenaline going from a near miss.
> 
> Certainly a few riders including myself have learnt from watching our own footage where we have made mistakes (i'm not talking purely about not taking primary etc)



Not bad driving specifically, but there is money to be made from viewers on YouTube. Whether Mr. T gets any or not is speculation on my part, hence my questions.

I don't think there's much to be achieved within the comments on YouTube. It is a den of racism, villainy and poor attitudes. I don't think you will get far by posting needlessly confrontational videos online either, which remains my position.

Like you, I have learned plenty from the footage of others. But I haven't learned anything from this.


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## Matthew_T (27 Aug 2013)

jarlrmai said:


> No-one is making money from YouTube views on bad driving.
> 
> If a driver did that to me I would certainly visit the YouTube link and have a look and then address the issues with the comments field, I would probably link it here to get support if I felt I was not breaking any laws. Because I understand why it is done this way as it is not practical to have a debate at a junction on a road with the adrenaline going from a near miss. If I was in error and I have had nightmares at junctions too and I always apologise to drivers, I would apologise to drivers on Youtube as well.
> 
> ...


That exact thing happened with me. However, the driver did not go on their way, they targetted me and followed me around town. The outcome wasnt so good for the driver.

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxvErixVGL4&list=WLC6274A9E2C9ED5B8


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## jarlrmai (27 Aug 2013)

So where does the debate happen? Don't confront the driver, don't upload to YouTube then it doesn't happen ever. But the main reason for the YouTube videos stands the driver can come and see it from the cyclists perspective, they can be linked to the correct laws for the roads etc.

The general comments in YouTube videos are bad, but the specific comments on a video only likely to be watched by a few people one of which might be the driver, at least might get something across which is not possible with a through a window argument on a street, even if it's just "you are possibly going to be filmed so don't cut up cyclists."

I'm trying to have a debate about the wider reasons that people are filming and uploading you keep bringing it back to this video..


----------



## AndyRM (27 Aug 2013)

jarlrmai said:


> So where does the debate happen? Don't confront the driver, don't upload to YouTube then it doesn't happen ever. But the main reason for the YouTube videos stands the driver can come and see it from the cyclists perspective, they can be linked to the correct laws for the roads etc.
> 
> The general comments in YouTube videos are bad, but the specific comments on a video only likely to be watched by a few people one of which might be the driver, at least might get something across which is not possible with a through a window argument on a street, even if it's just "you are possibly going to be filmed so don't cut up cyclists."
> 
> I'm trying to have a debate about the wider reasons that people are filming and uploading you keep bringing it back to this video..



This video was the original point of the thread, which is why I've tried to relate most of my comments to it.

However, if you want to discuss the wider reasons for helmet cam based footage that's fine. 

I understand them and think that appropriate videos serve a purpose. For me, this is not an appropriate video, as the issue was created by poor cycling and a needlessly confrontational attitude after the incident.


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## jarlrmai (27 Aug 2013)

I feel like we're at that we both agree with each other phase


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## Monsieur (27 Aug 2013)

Just come back from a lovely cycle ride in the sunshine 

Maybe many of you should do the same instead of posting banal tittla tattle


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## jarlrmai (27 Aug 2013)

Yeah thanks for that.


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## SW19cam (27 Aug 2013)

Monsieur said:


> Just come back from a lovely cycle ride in the sunshine
> 
> Maybe many of you should do the same instead of posting banal tittla tattle


 
Sadly, most of us can't get out for a cycle in our coffee breaks at work. Incidently, how many coffees do people here drink a day, really? I'm on 5 already.

Despite feeling slightly nauseous at this 'car crash' thread I can't help but read the new replies.


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## Matthew_T (27 Aug 2013)

I am getting a bit tired of people going off topic on this thread. I dont want it locked. I want to be able to post a response from the company when I get it.
Maybe people should stop commenting or make their own thread if they have something different to discuss, then maybe other members could find it more easily and have their input.


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## glasgowcyclist (27 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> I am getting a bit tired of people going off topic on this thread. I dont want it locked. I want to be able to post a response from the company when I get it.
> Maybe people should stop commenting or make their own thread if they have something different to discuss, then maybe other members could find it more easily and have their input.


 
Well said Matthew.

GC


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## 400bhp (27 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> I am getting a bit tired


 
Aren't we all.


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## PK99 (27 Aug 2013)

jarlrmai said:


> So where does the debate happen? *Don't confront the driver, *.


 
There are different ways of confronting the driver.

Like Matt did in this case, aggressively threatening the guy's job from the off (how ludicrous is it that he refers to his approach as passive aggressive!!) or assertively. Matt's whole approach was textbook aggressive, from his initial overtake to the head pointing to the station confrontation

Aggression
The dictionary defines aggression as:

1) Any unprovoked attack.
*2) An act or attitude of hostility, usually arising from feeling of inferiority or frustration. *

Aggression whether physical, verbal, or psychological, is destructive to both self and others. Nobody enjoys a bully!
*Aggression is an approach used to make you feel better by forcing your point of view on others, hurting their feelings, and building resentment toward you.* E

Assertion

The dictionary defines assertion as:
*1) A positive statement; declaration.*
*2) An insisting on one’s right, a claim, etc.*

*To assert one’s self means to put oneself forward; make oneself noticed, especially in insisting on one’s rights. An assertive person is able to stand up to others and deal with each issue at hand.*

Assertiveness skills can be learned and will not only resolve many interpersonal problems but will build confidence, self-respect, and improved relationships with peers.



In this case, cut the head pointing and head to the depot and : "S'cuse me. I felt very intimidated by your overtake back there, it seemed too close..." cue, in all likelyhood, a very different and more productive conversation. If not, then the follow up is "Could you tell me where the Depot managers office is, please?" ie giving an opportunity for face saving. Only then is there a need to escalate.


I've made the mistake of making a verbally aggressive approach to errant drivers in the past, but learnt to modify by initial approach, most often with positive results and lower blood pressure.


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## jarlrmai (27 Aug 2013)

Thanks for that, posting quotes from the dictionary, good stuff there.


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## RWright (27 Aug 2013)

Matthew_T said:


> I am getting a bit tired of people going off topic on this thread. I dont want it locked. I want to be able to post a response from the company when I get it.
> Maybe people should stop commenting or make their own thread if they have something different to discuss, then maybe other members could find it more easily and have their input.


 
I think a lot of people are getting a bit tired. I think I am too. So I am going stop clicking on stupid bicycling drama videos on Youtube.
This thread opened my eyes to a few things I hadn't taken time to think about and I think not watching any more of them will be in my best interest. Well, except for the part of learning how NOT to cycle.


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## PK99 (27 Aug 2013)

jarlrmai said:


> Thanks for that, posting quotes from the dictionary, good stuff there.


 

source> http://www.etfo.ca/AdviceForMembers...ges/Assertive Versus Aggresive Behaviour.aspx


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## Boris Bajic (27 Aug 2013)

Does this mean I can't put in any more stuff about lifting tree roots?

Just because it's off-topic and of no interest to anyone else who's ever breathed or ever will?

What about *my* human rights?


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## PK99 (27 Aug 2013)

Boris Bajic said:


> Does this mean I can't put in any more stuff about lifting tree roots?
> 
> Just because it's off-topic and of no interest to anyone else who's ever breathed or ever will?
> 
> What about *my* human rights?


 

You have to be human to have human rights, and some of your stuff is from another planet, so I'm not sure you have any!


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## Boris Bajic (27 Aug 2013)

PK99 said:


> You have to be human to have human rights, and some of your stuff is from another planet, so I'm not sure you have any!


 
Right! I've got that slur on camera! I think you just cost yourself your job!

Outrageous! Simply outrageous!!

Lock the thread! Call out the National Guard!! Slice those courgettes and fry them in a nice, salted butter!! Linseed that lacrosse stick!!!


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## djb1971 (27 Aug 2013)

Don't forget to issue them all with a red card


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## Deleted member 20519 (27 Aug 2013)

^ Homophobic idiot above ^

Milzy's post has been removed. The current above poster is not homophobic nor is he an idiot!


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## Hip Priest (27 Aug 2013)

jazloc said:


> ^ Homophobic idiot above ^


 
Milzy's earlier posts were in defence of Matthew, so I can only assume the above is some kind of sarcasm.


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## djb1971 (27 Aug 2013)

Yes, now jazlocs post points up to my post.


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## djb1971 (27 Aug 2013)

jazloc said:


> ^ Homophobic idiot above ^
> 
> Milzy's post has been removed. The current above poster is not homophobic nor is he an idiot!




Well I'm not homophobic, my wife would agree about the last bit though


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## Dan B (27 Aug 2013)

Glow worm said:


> The rest of us were having trouble with all of it!


Not me, I just scrolled past it as soon as I saw out was going to be a long one. Did I miss anything good?


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## Radchenister (27 Aug 2013)

400bhp said:


> Aren't we all.


 

I've only dropped in to read it once and struggled through until the video, then gave up soon after  .

I will make one point only on this thread, which has probably already been said and call me arrogant / ignorant for not following it all the way through if you will but I will gamble that it (the thread) has followed a similar path to others like it.

As long as an 'us and them' confrontational attitude is carried through with this type of antagonistic behaviour perpetuated between different segments of the road user community, then it's not really going to resolve anything.

This is not a criticism of Matt or the Bus driver per se - more directed at how 'people' generally appear to be happy to quickly fall into polar camps far too easily.

IMO, respect, courtesy and aiming to try and share the squeezed spaces we are offered in this country would go far further than blaming and point scoring when the inevitable glitches occur.

Close proximity of use is bound to cause issues, rather than turning every squeezed passing of astral bodies into a LawyersRU debate, it might be an idea to accept that the rhythms and perceptions of different users are something for us all to work on understanding better and aiming to think about how to deal with it all positively ... play nice now folks  .


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## jarlrmai (27 Aug 2013)

Yeah that will certainly work, give me the practical action towards increasing understanding positively amongst the independent tradesmen of Kirkby step one and I'll carry it out tomorrow.


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## Radchenister (27 Aug 2013)

There we go ... not my prob guv, he started it, they made me do it, etc ... just one more point from me then Spidey, with power comes great responsibility n all that jazz ... except everyone wants the rights and no-one wants to take responsibility ... someone else has made it this way ... it's them, those people  ... you work it out, you're the wrong righting Super Hero  !


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## jarlrmai (27 Aug 2013)

Thanks for that insightful post.


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## Radchenister (27 Aug 2013)

Glad you're loving my posts Spidey ... here's another insight for you ... perhaps try and look at things from another perspective on occasions  ?


View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmkaVoLoFEU


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## Glow worm (27 Aug 2013)

Dan B said:


> Not me, I just scrolled past it as soon as I saw out was going to be a long one. Did I miss anything good?


 
Just the usual tedious nonsense, so In a word, no!


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## deptfordmarmoset (27 Aug 2013)

@Moderators, can you please edit jazloc's post to say that the post above it has been deleted? It's pointing at an unrelated post.


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## Radchenister (27 Aug 2013)

Glow worm said:


> Just the usual tedious nonsense, so In a word, no!


 

This thread is most likely as useful as a square wheeled tricycle!?!


View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgbWu8zJubo


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## deptfordmarmoset (27 Aug 2013)

User said:


> Jazloc makes that clear him/herself so there isn't really any need for the mods to get involved.


 
Normally yes, but djb1971 appears to be innocently implicated. Besides, I gave jazloc's post a ''like'' before the deletion and I don't want to ''unlike'' it.


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## fossyant (27 Aug 2013)

The mods dont need to do much more. Certain persons were thread banned. Some of us are also on holiday with an expensive phone balanced on a caravan roof for a signal. I have now teathered it after breaking one last year.


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## Moderators (28 Aug 2013)

This thread has run its course, so is now being locked.

Other threads are available for reading.

Thank you.


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