# Heart Problems



## Bill Gates (31 Aug 2009)

Seeing the thread on cycling and MS has prompted me to seek out the experiences of other riders who ride and have had a heart attack or suffer from angina, and how this is affecting their riding. 

I've had 2 heart attacks and, some might think foolishly, still have aspirations to race competitively. I've not raced so far this year, as I've had a bad year's training mainly due to a dodgy knee. I recently had an arthroscopy and can now manage to do some high quality training rides.

The problem I find is recovery. My MHR is around 176 and 'm 60. I can manage to do some decent training @ 90-95% MHR for 2 x 20 minutes to improve my LT but it knocks me out for the following 2 days. Riding at steady or tempo pace doesn't have the same effect.


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## ComedyPilot (31 Aug 2009)

I would never take the opinion of an online forum as gospel in this sort of matter. Medical advice is the ONLY way forward. 

I'm not saying you can't race, but at 60, (and after TWO heart attacks) why would you want to? 

Also you sort of answer your own question at the end by saying riding at a steady pace doesn't knock the wind out of your sails. Your body is telling you something, listen to it.


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## numbnuts (31 Aug 2009)

Bill I think you should talk to your doctor first


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## Will1985 (31 Aug 2009)

*Waiting for HeartAttack to post on this thread*

The OP isn't asking for opinions...he is asking for other people's own heart attack experiences.


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## dellzeqq (31 Aug 2009)

exactly - and there is a place for advice from fellow cyclists. Earlier this year I was told by a consultant to stop cycling. My friend Lincoln at Brixton Cycles summed it up perfectly. 'Medecine is a small village'. The health benefits of cycling far outweigh the minor problem that it might cause.

Quite a few cyclists have returned to competitive cycling after a heart attack, and I was once overtaken (bah!) (at 4 am on the A40) by somebody who had started cycling after a heart attack. I hope it won't displease Shaun too greatly to mention that you might find some of them on the CTC forum. You could also ask British Cycling for advice, or for directions to a doctor who has the right experience.


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## Bill Gates (31 Aug 2009)

Medical opinion is the only way NOT to go. They do not understand athletes. Having described in detail the side effects I had from taking Atorvastatin, to my heart consultant he proscribed Omacor. He told me that it was no more than concentrated omega 3. Two months later I was suffering from total exhaustion etc. etc. from taking them, and that ruined my winter's training this year.

Everyone harps on about reducing cholesterol. Not one medical person I come across fails to give me a lecture about it. I keep getting letters from my GP asking me to take a blood test. Why? If my cholesterol is high so what? I'm really not bothered about it. My liver has functions which includes producing cholesterol, and this perfectly normal. i have no wish to artificially stop my liver from doing what it should do.

My GP told me two years ago that if I didn't take statins I would be dead within 2 years. I've got news pal I'm still here. 

On the other hand my knee surgeon couldn't believe my age nor that I had had 2 heart attacks. He asked me if the heart attacks were real. I took that as a compliment.

Nah! medical opinion on this subject stinks.


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## numbnuts (31 Aug 2009)

It seems to me that you have all ready made your mind up what to do, so good luck with your training


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## jimboalee (31 Aug 2009)

You could knock on the door of your local University and volunteer yourself to their Sports Science laboratory as a Heart Attack history athlete.

They *might* give you a full ECG while you are on their ergonometer and tell you which parts of your cardiac are damaged.


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## lukesdad (31 Aug 2009)

Its your funeral mate you do what yer like !


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## Davidc (31 Aug 2009)

I had one a year ago, and had bypass surgery. Fortunately I'm still here. A first in my family.

I was told that one of the reasons I did as well as I did was because I was reasonably fit, another was that I had been very fit at some point in the past, and another was that I had been exercising vigorously when it happened. The last was walking, the rest are down to cycling. I was one of the 1 in 200 who walk into A&E. I've increased the cycling since then.

I don't want to do anything competitive, but enjoy cycling. I've been told by all of the medical people I've spoken to that it's a case of the more the better. The only issue is to avoid going absolutely flat out for more than a few seconds at a time. I can't any more anyway!

Despite your reservations I think it's sensible if you've had CHD problems to take advice from the medics. Just cross check it and pick up on anything that doesn't make sense. The reason for keeping cholesterol down is to reduce the gunk in your coronary arteries - which is what creates heart attacks. You can reduce it with lots of exercise, so if you don't like the statins, get on your bike!

If like me you're diabetic as well (that's inherited from the other side of the family - the heart surgeon quipped that I should chose my parents better next time) then extra exercise also helps with that. Keeps blood sugar down and makes muscles respond better to insulin.

In brief - every bit of advice I've had has been to get as much hard exercise as possible, and cycling is among the very best types of exercise. Suits me fine!

My sympathies go to those who survive heart attacks but are then unable physically to do the activities they'd like to. One of my greatest fears when I was told I'd had a heart attack was that I wouldn't be able to cycle or walk properly afterwards. I can; I'm lucky.


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## Bill Gates (31 Aug 2009)

lukesdad said:


> Its your funeral mate you do what yer like !



Sorry, I didn't know I was asking for your's or anyone else's permission.


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## Bill Gates (31 Aug 2009)

Davidc said:


> The reason for keeping cholesterol down is to reduce the gunk in your coronary arteries - which is what creates heart attacks. You can reduce it with lots of exercise, so if you don't like the statins, get on your bike!



My two heart attacks coincided with 2 very stressful situations in my life. I know all about cholesterol and heart attacks and I don't believe that it is a contibutory cause. AND people who live the longest have higher than normal cholesterol. Did you know that?


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## Bill Gates (31 Aug 2009)

Now I know that there are quite a few veterans of my age or more who race and I wonder whether this recovery problem after hard training is an age thing.


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## joolsybools (31 Aug 2009)

Take advice from as many sensible peopple as possible and make a an educated judegmeent from that. Remember no-one thought a mile could be run in less than 4 minutes though. 

My uneducated but intuitive advice would be keep riding but maybe don't push yourself too hard.


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## Fab Foodie (31 Aug 2009)

My experience is similar to Davidc except my angina (at 42 yrs old) would not have allowed me to walk into A&E, I had the whole paramedic, ambulance and emergency theatre opened just for little ole me (If any F*in yank wants to diss the NHS, they can come to me first ). God Bless the JR Hospital Oxford.
I was stented and the recovery was miraculous. I also had a course of Cardio-rehab which was very important to me as I wanted to understand my limitations. They really stressed the importance of not pushing high heart rates for anything other than a few seconds to avoid suffocating areas of the heart where capillary flow might be compromised. For me the recommended a ceiling of 120bpm was suggested (and I'm on beta blockers). I've increased this gently over time to 130-140 and feel no ill effect. It allows me around 20-22 mph on the flat which is enough. On our regular circuit we used to have a Champs-Elyses style sprint down St Aldates, one evening I overreved 160 ish bpm and felt a warning twinge, so I've stopped. 
Don't underestimate the power of Cholesterol to kill you. 15 years ago (in my 30's) I was recommended to take statins... I wish I had. I'm on shed-loads now. because they've cleadred one blockages does not mean that another will not occur soon.
So, cycling is good, hell after my stenting I even started running, but don't overdo it. Excercising my heart regularly is a good excuse to ride, which also improves my generally depressive mood too. So that's the upside.
The downside is the constant sluggish feeling due to the Beta-blockers and statins and a slightly weird side effect that I cannot use my arms for anything strenuous for more than a few seconds. Even stir-frying or whisking pancake batter causes them to go lactic and heavy. Cycling and running seems OK becasue the movement helps return blood to the heart, whereas with the arms the heart has a harder job fighting gravity. Just as well my brain's not too active.

So here's the philosophy bit...
I could have died on a rented bike in the centre of a small Dutch town on my way to work, but I didn't. I was given a second chance. I'm gonna make the most of it, the Statins may or may not eventually rot my liver, but my high Cholesterol certainly will kill me and soon without them. I can't run or cycle as fast as I'd like, I probably will never step into a Squash court again and swimming is very hard too, but I can ride, quickish and many miles and enjoy the scenery, plus help preserve my life a bit longer. The overall reduction in physical performance is more than compensated for by the time I have with my family.

You can take advice and make your choices just the same.


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## Crankarm (31 Aug 2009)

Sorry to read your ticker has been flickering. The odd twinges I have had and I think everyone gets them from time to time become less frequent with moderate exercise. For a 60 year old what you are trying to still achieve is very laudible but be relalistic don't go so hard it kills you. Everything in moderation. If you were Cav's age then your body should be in peak condition but at 60 you're in the autumn of your life. Shake your tree too hard too quickly and all your leaves will come off.

Cholesterol is bad for you as it silts up in large arteries, bits break off which then go into smaller vessels blocking blood flow to the brain or heart muscle. DANGER STROKE OR HEART ATTACK!!! I believe broccoli is full of statins. I try to eat a lot of this, even raw. Also Brussles sprouts I believe are an excellent source. Beetroot is pretty good as well. Certainly brings colour to one's cheeks if nothing else . Avoid hydrogenated fats such as red meat, bisquits, cakes, crisps and those Ginsters pies . 

Also drink lots of water as another common cause of heart attacks is thickening of the blood due to not drinking enough water. Thick blood means one's ticker has to do more work pumping it around. Also not drinking enough water buggers up your kidneys. Particularly important for cyclists/athletes as well oiled machines who can sweat buckets.

Better to live life at 80% than not at all me thinks. But I'm sure some one will now be along to say that living life at 100% for 5 minutes is better than living at 75-80% for 100 years . Take it easy. Get some new slippers and put your feet up. Have another cigar and brandy....... .


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## Bill Gates (1 Sep 2009)

With apologies to mark Johnson I have copied his post from another cycling forum on the subject of statins as he explains what is my position for more eloquently than I can. 


"Seriously........regards statin drugs, there is a massive con quite frankly going on & if you make these drugs you really are on a winner, if your chance of winning the lottery was as good, I recommend going out & buying a ticket now!!!! 

LDP is not cholesterol, it's Low Density Lypo-Protein 

HDP is not cholesterol, it's High Density Lypo-Protein 

Ask any GP this, if cholesterol is so bad why does your body make it? 

Why is mothers breast milk high in cholesterol? (and fat) 

Every cell in your body is made up of around 40-50% cholesterol (cell wall) 

Also guess who sets the "safe" upper & lower limits of cholesterol? The drug manufactures!!!!!, how good is that if you make drugs (statins) self regulation!!! (lottery win every ticket) 

You'll also notice that the upper & lower limits have got closer together over the years so just about anyone who's tested would need statins, kind of like a smart bomb, you know the kind that goes straight through the window destroys everything & leaves the building standing? 

You have to address the under lying problem which is cholesterol metabolization. 

Without going into lots of detail: 

If your body is sympathetic dominant (more catabolic than anabolic) you will have elevated cholesterol as your body is spending more time breaking cells down, remember cholesterol is the primary building block for your cell/s wall/s, we "spend" around 12 million red blood cells a second! Let alone if you add any exercise on top of that, don't take my word for it, test your cholesterol go for a brisk walk or short ride & re-test & it will have gone up, guaranteed. 

Under lying factors are: 

Poor diet (lack of quality protein & fat) 
Excessive/prolonged periods of stress, nutrition, circadian, physical, emotional, environmental or phycological it all adds up & your body knows no difference between any of the above, it all elevates hormones that cause cell break down & fat storage. 

Also Adrenal function/Thyroid function (both have to be address synergistically as they work as a pair) 

I recommend watching this video clip on my website: 
http://www.markjohnson-coaching.350.com/MWV_page_10.htm 

There's also a good book on amazon called "the great cholesterol con" by Dr Malcolm Kendrick 
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Great-Chole...6101/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1250539629&sr=8-2 

You are also correct EVERY medical has side effects & every medical has to be detoxified by your liver, it's also worth noting that studies show only around 3-5% of people prescribed statins actually have a therapeutic effect, so for the other 90 odd % all the drug is doing is masking a under lying problem/s as some of the above examples. 

Hope this has provided you with some good useful information & given you some thing to think about"


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## Bill Gates (1 Sep 2009)

Re "Overdoing it". 

I've spent hours on the internet searching for information on athletes, cardiac disease and training. All medical opininion urges caution yet I cannot find one example of one person who has died from over exercising following a heart attack.

I understand the pressures of family and doctors as i have experienced them first hand. At the end of the day the heart is a muscle and needs to be exercised to keep in good condition. The arteries are the problem and that's where a good healthy diet can help. Also I remain much calmer these days as stress causes inflammation in the artery walls which then attract plaque and fir up. 

We make our lifestyle choices according to our beliefs and I've chosen mine and others will choose theirs. I'm simply looking for some advice on training but please don't criticise my lifestyle choice and I won't criticise anyone else's.


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## Bill Gates (1 Sep 2009)

Crankarm said:


> Sorry to read your ticker has been flickering. The odd twinges I have had and I think everyone gets them from time to time become less frequent with moderate exercise. For a 60 year old what you are trying to still achieve is very laudible but be relalistic don't go so hard it kills you. Everything in moderation. If you were Cav's age then your body should be in peak condition but at 60 you're in the autumn of your life. Shake your tree too hard too quickly and all your leaves will come off.
> 
> Cholesterol is bad for you as it silts up in large arteries, bits break off which then go into smaller vessels blocking blood flow to the brain or heart muscle. DANGER STROKE OR HEART ATTACK!!! *I believe broccoli is full of statins*. I try to eat a lot of this, even raw. Also Brussles sprouts I believe are an excellent source. Beetroot is pretty good as well. Certainly brings colour to one's cheeks if nothing else . Avoid hydrogenated fats such as red meat, bisquits, cakes, crisps and those Ginsters pies .
> 
> ...



Are you having a laugh?


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## Davidc (1 Sep 2009)

Perhaps we should start a CC Diseased Hearts section on cyclogs, and try to outcompete the Scots separatists! 

*FF* - When you've finished with your NHS knocking yanks send 'em over here....


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## jonny jeez (1 Sep 2009)

Err...Bill, are you "asking" us or trying to "convince" us (or you) that its ok to ride after two heart attacks and what seems to be described as high Cholesterol.

I dont need to be convinced that you will be fine...so...do you.

Do you just want us all to say, "YEAH you go man, F*ck all those GP's who are obviously on some clandestine mission of mercenary fulfuillment, none of them want to see you have a happy and healthy life...no they just want to join up to some inner sanctum conspiracy and make zillions along the way"

Sure, drug companys make a profit, and sure they "push" their products just like any commercial entity and as a result GP's are often inundated with choice...is this any reason to ignore someone who has trained for decades to be in a position to try and help you.

From the tone of your posts you are clearly a very driven and determined man, so, good luck with your life, I wish you all the best

I have no advice for you ......and you dont want it anyway.

Take care

Jonny


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## Bill Gates (1 Sep 2009)

jonny jeez said:


> *Err...Bill, are you "asking" us or trying to "convince" us (or you) that its ok to ride after two heart attacks and what seems to be described as high Cholesterol.
> 
> I dont need to be convinced that you will be fine...so...do you.
> 
> ...




I don't need convincing. Whatever gave you that idea?

I'm asking for training tips re recovery FFS. The stuff about cholesterol and to take it easy in your condition is in answer to those who brought it up in the first place. 

I didn't bring it up and I'm not looking for advice about my lifestyle thank you. I know repeat KNOW what statins did to me as I had the most horrendous siude effects that I'm convinced would have killed me if I carried on. Now I'm feeling just great. Those of you on statins, be honest, how do you feel? 

In my GP's surgery I overheard two guys talking about how many pills they were taking, willy waving if you like. Believe me they looked like sh*t. 

No I don't need convincing! 

Is here anyone out there who can give me an answer re training and recovery at 60, without lecturing me on some ridiculous notion that I'm on a crusade to get people off statins? Thank you


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## youngoldbloke (1 Sep 2009)

I am 61 going on 62. I had balloon angioplasty, 2 arteries, in 1992, following angina - but slowly reverted to old eating/ drinking habits - leading to a recurrence of the problem and 3 arteries stented in 2005. I think I must have taken every cholestrol lowering medicaton known, statins lowered my cholesterol, but I developed chronic muscle pain, (which continues to some extent). I stopped statins some years ago and now take Ezetimibe, but have some doubt as to its effectiveness. The only other prescription medication I take is 150mg aspirin daily. I also take Omega 3, vitamin D and various other supplements. I always cycled, after racing in my youth, but became something of a born again roadie following the recent procedures. I obeyed instructions this time, went to cardio rehab., gym followup, exercise on prescription..... stopped drinking alcohol, took up walking, then cycling - almost obsessively. Gym, circuit training once a week, and bike otherwise. Resting heart rate about 47, max around 180. My weight is down from around 12.5 stone to just 10. I will never be as fast as I remember being (!), the best I can manage now is to average around 17mph for 22miles. I am not as good a hill climber as I once was, and I don't think I will race again. It has taken all this time to regain fitness, and it takes work to keep it, but I regret I didn't start sooner. Listen to your body - go for it - good luck!


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## Jonathan M (1 Sep 2009)

Bill Gates said:


> Seeing the thread on cycling and MS has prompted me to seek out the experiences of other riders who ride and have had a heart attack or suffer from angina, and how this is affecting their riding.
> 
> I've had 2 heart attacks and, some might think foolishly, still have aspirations to race competitively. I've not raced so far this year, as I've had a bad year's training mainly due to a dodgy knee. I recently had an arthroscopy and can now manage to do some high quality training rides.
> 
> The problem I find is recovery. My MHR is around 176 and 'm 60. I can manage to do some decent training @ 90-95% MHR for 2 x 20 minutes to improve my LT but it knocks me out for the following 2 days. Riding at steady or tempo pace doesn't have the same effect.



Bill, have you tried any of the cardiac charities? 

Or indeed have you spoken to a cardiac specialist consultant? Edit, re-read you post on page 1, ask your current consultant if any of his colleagues have such experience. 

Fit people can & do experience heart attacks, therefore consultants will have people on their workload who exercised pre MI, and who return to exercise post MI. If your consultants opinion is that exercise cannot happen, then seek a second opinion, especially if your consultant has cardiology tacked onto a general medicine role. Maybe even ask to be seen at a specialist centre?? 

To dismiss all "general" medics as having insufficient knowledge isn't appropriate, as they have condition specific knowledge, I'm not sure how many sports physiologists will have dealt with assisting someone with a recent cardiac history.

As someone who is also trying to return to cycling after a recently diagnosed condition (brain tumour & surgery, associated seizures) then you have my best wishes. Not every condition can & should be treated as a "life senstence", hey, if we all thought that someone should have pulled the plug on LA years ago! - I forgot, Cofidis did!!!


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## HeartAttack (1 Sep 2009)

Dec 07 suffered a heart attack I was 43, I was lucky I didn't need a bypass but did have to have 2 stents fitted, I was advised at the time to take up some light exercise as I didn't do anything more than walk to the car, I ate the wrong foods and smoked 40 a day, typically my attack was stress related due to me being self employed and running 3 businesses.

Anyway taking the doc's advice I thought cycling would be ideal as he did too, however I soon found that the limits I'd been advised to stick to were so low I just couldn't enjoy myself, OK I'm very competitive, so I decided to follow the advice as and where it suited me, wrong I know but its my life and when I die I wanted to go out knowing I had no regrets, typically the docs didn't agree but the more they said no the more I did, yes this could have killed me but I did also listen to my body.

Anyway 2 1/2 months following my attack I did a 50mile reliability ride, god it was hard work, I spent almost all the time on my own as I couldn't ride with the old guys out there, but I finished it in 3 hours dead, and dead I was almost but I did it, against the advice. A weeks rest and I was full of joy for my new found pastime. Following this I have gone from strength to strength, but I have upset and annoyed my doctors and consultants big time.

At my 6 month check I was there with a guy who had an attack at the same time, we had the same treatments and advice, he followed everything they said to the letter, I did what I wanted, we are both almost the same age but after 6 months he looked 90 and I didn't, he couldn't run up 6 flights of stairs, I can.

So now nearly 2 years on, I still eat what I like, I still smoke  and I still ride the bike and now do some running and gym work. I have done road races, time trials (just done a 23:02 for a 10) and can almost always be found near the front of my club's fast group on rides. Ok in the last 12 months I've had to have 2 more stents fitted but for me doing what I wanted has worked, BUT I would not advocate anyone following what I have done, it could and may well in the long term kill me but for those who know me, know I live life to the full and accept that I may not be doing the best for myself but its my life and I live for me.

As mentioned by others listen to your body but don't totally ignore what doctors say, they know better than us what can and may happen.

Now get out there and see what you can do, stop when it hurts, rest and then try again.


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## Jonathan M (1 Sep 2009)

One big issue to consider, and it is more family practical oreintated than cardiac rehab related.

If your consultant has clearly documented that he does not support exercise past a certain level, then any life cover that you have may not pay out in the event of a misfortune occuring, which could mean hardships for remaining family. Bill & HeartAttack, I'm not directing this towards you guys, but it is soemthing to consider before making decisions for others whose health may fail them in the future.

Sadly sometimes medics will refuse to support some activities purely from the litigation point of view, other times they do have clear cut clinical reasons to do so; I was told to not fly for at least 6 weeks post brain surgery to remove my tumour, simply because even though steps are taken to try and ensure no air is closed under the membranes of thebrain,some always is, and would cause problems in the altered pressure environemnt of an aircraft.


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## Bill Gates (1 Sep 2009)

HeartAttack said:


> Dec 07 suffered a heart attack I was 43, I was lucky I didn't need a bypass but did have to have 2 stents fitted, I was advised at the time to take up some light exercise as I didn't do anything more than walk to the car, I ate the wrong foods and smoked 40 a day, typically my attack was stress related due to me being self employed and running 3 businesses.
> 
> Anyway taking the doc's advice I thought cycling would be ideal as he did too, however I soon found that the limits I'd been advised to stick to were so low I just couldn't enjoy myself, OK I'm very competitive, so I decided to follow the advice as and where it suited me, wrong I know but its my life and when I die I wanted to go out knowing I had no regrets, typically the docs didn't agree but the more they said no the more I did, yes this could have killed me but I did also listen to my body.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your reply, and congratulations on your 10 mile TT time. Well done!

Interested as to what prompted the 2 stents. Were you getting angina? Also do you do interval training and if so what effect does that have on your recovery?

I seem to have hit on a winning formula by accident re my sore knee. I now train every other day and find my speed and fitness coming along nicely. In resting my knee I seem to be gaining strength from the extra recovery from training.


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## youngoldbloke (1 Sep 2009)

"Interested as to what prompted the 2 stents." _- I still smoke  _- might have something to do with it_. _The absolutely first and essential thing to do if you have heart disease is to stop smoking_.
_


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## HeartAttack (1 Sep 2009)

One of the stents were fitted because sods law hit me and somehow one moved, only 3 mm I was told but it was enough to have a weak wall just behind it so they backed another upto the first, the other was partly through angina and partly because I didn't take my own advice and listen to my body, I was in the front pack at the Lotus eve race series doing my turn at the front trying to pull back a breakaway and I wanted to get them back no matter what, well till my body said enough was enough, I learnt a very hard lesson that day and no matter what now I do take note if I get a pain.

Training etc, yes I do some intervals, normally this year they have been 60sec max effort 60 secs recovery x 10 once a week, I also take 99% of the time Monday's and Friday's as a non bike/rest day. I always remember being told that you don't get stronger/faster through training but through recovery so yes having time off will allow your body to recover.


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## HeartAttack (1 Sep 2009)

youngoldbloke said:


> "Interested as to what prompted the 2 stents." _- I still smoke  _- might have something to do with it_. _The absolutely first and essential thing to do if you have heart disease is to stop smoking_.
> _




Yep maybe but I'll quit when I want to not when I'm told to, and I'm also yet to see any proof that my smoking was a contributory factor in my attack or subsequent need for medical attention. I do agree smoking is bad for my health but its my body and my health so please don't try to tell me what I am doing right or wrong.

You could also talk to my grandad, he was 100 last Dec had a quad bypass at 93yo and still smokes 60 a day as he has since he was 14 and you know what he's still here :?:


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## youngoldbloke (1 Sep 2009)

Lucky your family has such good genes_,_ Heart Attack_. _I am not trying to tell you anything - you obviously have it all sorted.


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## Jonathan M (1 Sep 2009)

@ Heartattack, when you say that you've yet to see proof that smoking contributed to _your_ heart attack, I assume you mean you as an individual and not the well proven role that smoking has to do with heart disease? http://www.bhf.org.uk/keeping_your_heart_healthy/preventing_heart_disease/smoking.aspx

Yes, it is your health, and you are entitled to choose what to do about smoking or not, but have you ever considered that improvements can happen relatively quickly if you do stop smoking, and that your cycling may improve?
http://old.ash.org.uk/html/factsheets/html/fact11.html


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## HeartAttack (1 Sep 2009)

Jonathan M said:


> @ Heartattack, when you say that you've yet to see proof that smoking contributed to _your_ heart attack, I assume you mean you as an individual and not the well proven role that smoking has to do with heart disease? http://www.bhf.org.uk/keeping_your_heart_healthy/preventing_heart_disease/smoking.aspx
> 
> Yes, it is your health, and you are entitled to choose what to do about smoking or not, but have you ever considered that improvements can happen relatively quickly if you do stop smoking, and that your cycling may improve?
> http://old.ash.org.uk/html/factsheets/html/fact11.html



Yes I am talking about MY health, and yes I've seen and heard it all before, but as I said the more I'm told to do something I don't want to do the more I won't do it, I'll quit as and when I want to, as for improvements, yep they will come but I don't think I'm doing too bad at the moment either :?: The only issue I have is trying to get that last smoke in while warming up for a TT, its hell trying to get a puff while on the drops or aero bars, the ash just blows right back into my face


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## Jonathan M (1 Sep 2009)

HeartAttack, quite an intresting stance you take, and I'll agree with Youngoldbloke that you must have some decent genes. Can we take it you'll leave your body to medical science so that the elixir of lengevity can be discovered?

But from MY health perspective, I'd gladly change anything in my lifestyle that would improve my longterm outcomes, but sadly the origins of brain tumours are not known, so other than a "healthy lifestyle" there is not much in my control. 

Interesting that you have something within your control but choose not to make any changes. I'd love to have such choices available to me, and my wife would love me to, and I'm sure my 9year old son would like me to have such choices, as would the many smokers who accept that their smoking has contributed to their long term cardiac condition.


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## Bill Gates (2 Sep 2009)

youngoldbloke

There are some parallels with your experiences and my own situation



youngoldbloke said:


> I am 61 going on 62.



I'm 60



youngoldbloke said:


> I think I must have taken every cholestrol lowering medicaton known, statins lowered my cholesterol, but I developed chronic muscle pain, (which continues to some extent). I stopped statins some years ago and now take Ezetimibe, but have some doubt as to its effectiveness.




I too had side effects including severe exhaustion, palpitations, insominia, terrible pain in both thighs and other personal stuff. Ezetimbe is part of the same group that lowers cholesterol artificially and it's worth googling for side effects. 




youngoldbloke said:


> after racing in my youth, but became something of a born again roadie following the recent procedures.




I raced until I was 33 and then stopped totally. After my first heart attack I refused to let it beat me and gave myself the challenge of getting under the hour in a 25 mile TT within 12 months at the age of 55. Almost did it too 1.00.06 in a race on the F1 early April 2005. Very cold and windy so quite pleased with that. Symptoms from statins not that bad at that stage. Within 2 days had a crash while descending when the tyre on my front wheel blew out. By the time I had recovered it was August and did another 25 mile TT whilst experiencing side effects from statins(unknowingly) and crawed around to do a 1.12 or something totally exhausted. Went round to old clubmates house and could barely climb the stairs! 

Then googled side effects of statins and found that they were poisoning my system. Not really been back to the previous level since then with various other crashes and set backs (not least another heart attack in June 2007). Don't know if statins have had a long term effect or not but it took me 12 months to get over the first lot of Atorsvastatin to ride reasonably and then this year another 6 months after the second lot of Omacor.



youngoldbloke said:


> Resting heart rate about 47, max around 180. My weight is down from around 12.5 stone to just 10. I will never be as fast as I remember being (!)



My RHR is 43 and MHR 176. Weight is 13.5 stone and used to be when racing before 12.5 stone. 6 ft tall. I'll never get back my old speed. I used to be able to race TT's @ nearly 30 mph on what is now considered a road bike.

The challenge remains. Under the hour for a 25 mile TT (has to be next year now)


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## Bill Gates (2 Sep 2009)

HeartAttack said:


> Training etc, yes I do some intervals, normally this year they have been 60sec max effort 60 secs recovery x 10 once a week, I also take 99% of the time Monday's and Friday's as a non bike/rest day. I always remember being told that you don't get stronger/faster through training but through recovery so yes having time off will allow your body to recover.



Interesting choice of intervals. For me 60 seconds is too much for max effort (VO2max) and not long enough 90/95% MHR for LT training.

I do both long 2 x 20 minutes/5 minute rest ;and 4 x 7 minutes/3 minute rests; and 5 x 30 second sprints max effort as many sets as can manage. After doing these I'm stuffed for 2 days. 

When I was racing in my youth I could a 40 mile ride in the morning, do a set of intervals in the evening and ride to work the next day, which was a round trip of 26 miles no problem. It's not being able to do the training which is so frustrating.


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## nigelnorris (2 Sep 2009)

Bill Gates said:


> I don't need convincing. Whatever gave you that idea?
> 
> I'm asking for training tips re recovery FFS. The stuff about cholesterol and to take it easy in your condition is in answer to those who brought it up in the first place.
> 
> ...


You're very aggressive, aren't you. Wonder if stress in any way contributed to your heart attack.


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## Bill Gates (2 Sep 2009)

nigelnorris said:


> You're very aggressive, aren't you. Wonder if stress in any way contributed to your heart attack.



I've already said it was.Please read the thread before you post what is forgive me for saying "the bleedin' obvious".

If I say that stress caused my heart attacks, then yes it is safe to assume that stress contributed to my heart attack. You mate are a bloody idiot as well as being bloody rude.


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## Crankarm (2 Sep 2009)

HeartAttack said:


> You could also talk to my grandad, he was 100 last Dec had a quad bypass at 93yo and still smokes 60 a day as he has since he was 14 and you know what he's still here



Think how many more years he will have lived when he dies had he not smoked.


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## nigelnorris (2 Sep 2009)

Bill Gates said:


> I've already said it was.Please read the thread before you post what is forgive me for saying "the bleedin' obvious".
> 
> If I say that stress caused my heart attacks, then yes it is safe to assume that stress contributed to my heart attack. You mate are a bloody idiot as well as being bloody rude.


Idiot is quite a strong word coming from someone who gets his medical advice from the internet.


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## Crackle (2 Sep 2009)

Can't help you with the heart problems but I did see a very good book in the library, aimed at the serious cyclist over 50. Packed full of info about aerobic capacity and recovery rates. Very dry reading but the author is well regarded.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cycling-Past-50-Joe-Friel/dp/0880117370/ref=pd_sim_b_41

It might be of use and if it was in my library it might be in yours.


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## Fab Foodie (2 Sep 2009)

nigelnorris said:


> Idiot is quite a strong word coming from someone who gets his medical advice from the internet.




Bill Gates, I think learning to chill might be a good idea.


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## Davidc (2 Sep 2009)

Fab Foodie said:


> Bill Gates, I think learning to chill might be a good idea.



+1

Stress can be a significant risk factor for both first heart attacks and repeat attacks. Each heart attack leaves some more heart muscle dead, and it never gets repaired or replaced. Each one is one closer to your last .......


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## woohoo (2 Sep 2009)

Just some bits and pieces



> "Ask any GP this, if cholesterol is so bad why does your body make it?"



That is just complete bollox 

GPs will say that too much cholesterol is bad but not cholesterol generation, per se. The "recommended" range is normally between about 3.5 to 5.2 and a low reading, just as much as a high reading, can be a cause for concern / further investigation..

(The body can also generate excess cancerous white blood cells in the case of lymphatic leukaemia, so because your body makes it should the cancer be seen as a good thing and not be treated?)

Like *Fab Foodie*, I'm also a "graduate" of the JR Hospital Oxford but I've been processed twice, once for a bypass and 10 years later for a couple of stents. On both occasions, I was encouraged by the consultants to take light exercise during the recovery period (3 to 4 weeks for the bypass and 1 week for the angioplasty) and then to quickly build back up to my previous exercise levels.

Before both the bypass and the angioplasty I had started to get mild angina when giving it some stick (relatively!) in the gym and on my bike but I've never had a heart attack. In both cases, I could avoid the angina by backing off by about 5% and after being referred by my GP, on both occasions, an angiogram showed that the heart was getting a reduced blood supply.

I would now use that 5% "target" (if it were consistent) as a future trigger to ask if another angiogram to check out the arteries is required. I reckon if I were to ignore this then a heart attack would be probable.

As for statins, I've been on Simvastatin (not very effective for me) and then Atorvastatin for 15 years and have noticed no side effects. (The Clopidogrel that they put you on after angioplasty is another matter; I got a bruise if even a fly landed on me).

I do cross check the advice that I get from the medics and I'm happy that for me the upsides of taking statins outweigh the potential downsides (but I get my liver function tested every 6 months to make sure!), As for aspirin, the data that I remember seeing stated that 75mg per day was enough to be effective and that there was no gain to be had from going above that, especially as the risks, more or less increased proportionately with any increase above the 75mg level.


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## Bill Gates (2 Sep 2009)

nigelnorris said:


> Idiot is quite a strong word coming from someone who gets his medical advice from the internet.



When I saw the Operations Manager who runs the GP practice who proscribed the statins to me, she told me that I should have told them that I was having side effects and then they would have stopped the prescription. I pointed out that on the *"internet"* I saw that the NHS for Canada had published a list of categories for whom statins was not to be proscribed. That list included athletes. She did not know that such a list existed.

http://www.drug-injury.com/druginjurycom/2005/07/health_canada_a.html


In my consultations with my GP I had brought up the subject of training and the taking of medication and was told categorically that there was no problem. On that basis would you still stand by your post?

I would like to take the opportunity of maybe changing the word that you accused me of, namely aggression, and call it exasperation. The *"**internet" *seems to me to be the only place where you can find out anecdotally about real issues and get to the truth about them. If you ignore the *"internet"* as a source of information then I don't think *idiot* is too strong a word for you at all. In fact it is the most polite word I can think of.

edited to provide link to said canada health bulletin


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## nigelnorris (2 Sep 2009)

Have you only just discovered the internet or something?

You linked to a site that is called 'drug injury watch', that is mainly sponsored by an [American] law company called 'druginjurylaw.com', and it doesn't occur to you that maybe they might have some small motive in this? Then you take that as sufficient source to override the opinions of every medical person that you've come across.

And then just to prove categorically that you are right you underline all the important words. And then you call me an idiot again?


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## Bill Gates (2 Sep 2009)

nigelnorris said:


> Have you only just discovered the internet or something?
> 
> You linked to a site that is called 'drug injury watch', that is mainly sponsored by an [American] law company called 'druginjurylaw.com', and it doesn't occur to you that maybe they might have some small motive in this? Then you take that as sufficient source to override the opinions of every medical person that you've come across.
> 
> And then just to prove categorically that you are right you underline all the important words. And then you call me an idiot again?



That particular link just repeats the wording of the original bulletin. So just for non believing you here is the original bulletin:


http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ahc-asc/media/advisories-avis/_2005/2005_77-eng.php

Maybe rhyming with merchant banker is more appropriate for you eh?


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## Bill Gates (2 Sep 2009)

Fab Foodie said:


> Bill Gates, I think learning to chill might be a good idea.



A bit difficult when someone takes a pop at you.


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## jimboalee (2 Sep 2009)

To be fair to Bill, in his original post, he asked others to share their experiences following a heart attack.
He did not ask for others to tell him how to live his life.

He asked for people's accounts of how they are coping after a heart attack.
He did not ask for opinions.

Early on in the thread I offered a suggestion concerning a University Sports Science Dept. It was a 'suggestion' because I said "You could".
Its not as silly as it sounds. Birmingham Uni' regularly seek athletes with coronary and respiratory problems to help in their research.
One chap I know got far better advice than his GP ever gave.


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## nigelnorris (2 Sep 2009)

Bill Gates said:


> A bit difficult when someone takes a pop at you.



I don't know what you're grinning about you silly old sod. Killing yourself to prove that you can google better than all the worlds doctors. 

Round my way they put stuff like netnanny on the computers to keep people like you safe from themselves. Don't you have some grandkids somewhere who can explain how it works?


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## Jonathan M (2 Sep 2009)

nigelnorris said:


> Idiot is quite a strong word coming from someone who gets his medical advice from the internet.



I'd have thought Bill wasn't asking for medical advice here, but more advice on cycling with a heart condition. Big difference.


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## Bill Gates (2 Sep 2009)

nigelnorris said:


> I don't know what you're grinning about you silly old sod. Killing yourself to prove that you can google better than all the worlds doctors.
> 
> Round my way they put stuff like netnanny on the computers to keep people like you safe from themselves. Don't you have some grandkids somewhere who can explain how it works?



Move on Nigel.

I apologise


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## nigelnorris (2 Sep 2009)

Jonathan M said:


> I'd have thought Bill wasn't asking for medical advice here, but more advice on cycling with a heart condition. Big difference.


I wasn't talking about the OP but something he said later, that he:

"...googled side effects of statins and found that they were poisoning my system"


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## nigelnorris (2 Sep 2009)

Bill Gates said:


> Move on Nigel.
> 
> I apologise


To hell with your apology, if you call me a self-gratification artist I'll respond accordingly. 

You should learn not to treat the internet as an opportunity to behave in ways that you would probably be ashamed of in real life.


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## Bill Gates (2 Sep 2009)

Crackle said:


> Can't help you with the heart problems but I did see a very good book in the library, aimed at the serious cyclist over 50. Packed full of info about aerobic capacity and recovery rates. Very dry reading but the author is well regarded.
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cycling-Past-50-Joe-Friel/dp/0880117370/ref=pd_sim_b_41
> 
> It might be of use and if it was in my library it might be in yours.



Thanks for that. My wife belongs to the local library and I'll ask her to look it up when she next goes.


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## Bill Gates (2 Sep 2009)

woohoo said:


> Before both the bypass and the angioplasty I had started to get mild angina when giving it some stick (relatively!) in the gym and on my bike but I've never had a heart attack. In both cases, I could avoid the angina by backing off by about 5% and after being referred by my GP, on both occasions, an angiogram showed that the heart was getting a reduced blood supply.
> 
> I would now use that 5% "target" (if it were consistent) as a future trigger to ask if another angiogram to check out the arteries is required. I reckon if I were to ignore this then a heart attack would be probable.



That all makes good sense. In the week prior to my second Heart attack I went out and did some hard intervals on the road and suffered what I thought was probably angina, but could have been indigestion, for the first time. Backed off and the pain went. 

So to eliminate the indigestion option I rode hard again and the pain did come back. Before I had a chance to get it checked out I was hit with the 2nd heart attack just after sitting down from making my "Father of the Bride" speech to over 100 sit down guests 3 days later.


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## Bill Gates (2 Sep 2009)

Jonathan M said:


> I'd have thought Bill wasn't asking for medical advice here, but more advice on cycling with a heart condition. Big difference.



Right.

Thanks


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## Bill Gates (2 Sep 2009)

jimboalee said:


> To be fair to Bill, in his original post, he asked others to share their experiences following a heart attack.
> He did not ask for others to tell him how to live his life.
> 
> He asked for people's accounts of how they are coping after a heart attack.
> ...




I've thought about that, but backed off from doing it because it is quite likely they would not allow me to push myself to the limit to cover their backsides. Might be worth a phone call though.


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## jimboalee (2 Sep 2009)

Bill Gates said:


> I've thought about that, but backed off from doing it because it is quite likely they would not allow me to push myself to the limit to cover their backsides. Might be worth a phone call though.



If that was the case, they'd be depriving themselves of recording a 'real time' myocardial infarction on the ergonometer. 

You'd go down in Acedemic history,,,,


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## Jonathan M (2 Sep 2009)

nigelnorris said:


> I wasn't talking about the OP but something he said later, that he:
> 
> "...googled side effects of statins and found that they were poisoning my system"



Yep, and I've googled the side effects of my medicines and discovered that I shouldn't be taking two of them at the same time. Assuming that a person has some knowledge the information available via the internet is useful, changing the timing of my meds meant I reduced some of the side effects I had been experiencing.

Equally those websites that claim to be able to "cure all" are best missed, but through my work I've come across people who truly believe that their long term condition could be cured but isn't, because "they" (the secret underground governments) make too much money from pharma companies.

As for side effects of statins, they are not the nicest medicine available, and particularly the muscle pain that can arise is a significant reason why a lot of people need to chain their lipid lowering drugs.

Bills wording might not be the best, but let's assume that he is generally a well balanced, moderately intelligent person, and can make informed decisions, one of which is asking for cycling advice on a cycling forum


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## Jonathan M (2 Sep 2009)

jimboalee said:


> If that was the case, they'd be depriving themselves of recording a 'real time' myocardial infarction on the ergonometer.
> 
> You'd go down in Acedemic history,,,,



Perhaps Mengele got there first??


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## Davidc (2 Sep 2009)

Something I don't recall seeing in your posts, Bill, is whether you've actually asked for medical or other professional advice.

I have, from a cardiac consultant, a physiotherapist who specialises in cardiac rehabilitation, and a trainer, who also partly specialises in cardiac maintenance.

They all say that their advice is individual, based on a person's general physical condition, fitness, and strength. As I said earlier, in my case they've all said its the more the better, but with the proviso of not getting to 100% effort for more than a few seconds. That's just to give a little protection to the heart by leaving a bit in reserve.

Taking that advice I've been building up for the past 9 months, since I was allowed back on a bike. I now quite regularly ride up some of the steepest local hills, 15% and 300m climbs, and have ridden up to 55 miles in one go. The next stage will be to get average speeds up, with a target of 15 to 20 mph over 20 miles.

I have no interest in competing again, haven't done so for about 30 years, but want to go on enjoying cycling, and that means being able to travel up and down hills and cover a reasonable distance. I might have a go at a local sportive next year, or even the EE if I'm up to it.

Being fit, mainly from cycling, looks to have served me well when I had the MI. My underlying problem was congenital, and the bypass may overcome it, 'though it can't undo the muscle damage, so with a bit of luck it may keep me away from another heart attack, with regular cycling playing an important helping part.

If you want to train to compete, and doing the training is safe for you, it will keep you fit. Everything I've read or been told about heart attacks and their aftermath says that keeping fit is the best way to avoid further problems, and stay alive.

Even if the training kills you, at least you'll go enjoying youself, which has to be better than sitting around moping and miserable - a sure route to disaster.

If there are other components in your lifestyle which are known risk factors for heart disease it's up to you to decide what to do about them. If you're competing on a bike you're likely to want to not smoke and eat healthily for that rather than medical reasons. You might decide to take the risk and go flat out to win. All of these things involve assessing the risk and making your own decision. As does refusing certain drugs. In the end it's up to you what you do, what your priorities are, and whose advice you seek in making those decisions. I'd only suggest asking and listening to the replies, so you make the best informed decisions possible.


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## Bill Gates (2 Sep 2009)

Davidc

Just seen this and I'm going to order some. It's called Ateronon

http://www.drh.org.uk/category/exercise/

http://www.ateronon.co.uk/


Thank god for the internet eh?


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## Bill Gates (2 Sep 2009)

Just ordered a month's supply online. Looks as though Boots might stock them.


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## Davidc (2 Sep 2009)

Bill Gates said:


> Davidc
> 
> Just seen this and I'm going to order some. It's called Ateronon
> 
> ...



Looks good.

I haven't had any bad reactions to statins, but have met number of people who, like you, have. An alternative may well help.

If it's effective perhaps the NHS will use it.

Don't quite see what the internet's got to do with it - presumably you found the advert there?


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## Bill Gates (2 Sep 2009)

Davidc said:


> Something I don't recall seeing in your posts, Bill, is whether you've actually asked for medical or other professional advice.
> 
> I have, from a cardiac consultant, a physiotherapist who specialises in cardiac rehabilitation, and a trainer, who also partly specialises in cardiac maintenance.
> 
> They all say that their advice is individual, based on a person's general physical condition, fitness, and strength. As I said earlier, in my case they've all said its the more the better, but with the proviso of not getting to 100% effort for more than a few seconds. That's just to give a little protection to the heart by leaving a bit in reserve.




When you are climbing a steep hill it's difficult not to redline.



Davidc said:


> If you want to train to compete, and doing the training is safe for you, it will keep you fit. Everything I've read or been told about heart attacks and their aftermath says that keeping fit is the best way to avoid further problems, and stay alive.
> 
> Even if the training kills you, at least you'll go enjoying youself, which has to be better than sitting around moping and miserable - a sure route to disaster.



I totally agree with that philosophy. For me life without some sort of physical challenge wouldn't be the same.



Davidc said:


> If there are other components in your lifestyle which are known risk factors for heart disease it's up to you to decide what to do about them. If you're competing on a bike you're likely to want to not smoke and eat healthily for that rather than medical reasons. You might decide to take the risk and go flat out to win. All of these things involve assessing the risk and making your own decision. As does refusing certain drugs. In the end it's up to you what you do, what your priorities are, and whose advice you seek in making those decisions. I'd only suggest asking and listening to the replies, so you make the best informed decisions possible.



This new supplement looks the DB's. I'm going to give it a go.


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## Bill Gates (2 Sep 2009)

Davidc said:


> Looks good.
> 
> If it's effective perhaps the NHS will use it.
> 
> Don't quite see what the internet's got to do with it - presumably you found the advert there?




They will and yes I googled "NHS statins athletes" to see what was the latest from our NHS I have seen nothing from them previously bearing in mind the warnings from Canada NHS was 3 years ago.

You know the very first post I made on the internet was August 2005 on the old cycling + about my experience with statins and I was attacked for my views. Looking back I was quite shocked at the time as I was honestly trying to help others who had no idea about the problems they could cause.

Now the medical establishment is finally waking up. Thank God.


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## Davidc (2 Sep 2009)

Bill Gates said:


> When you are climbing a steep hill it's difficult not to redline.



Agree. What I do is to watch out for maxing, and stop for a rest. When breathing rate returns to normal I start again. I never used to do that - I always forced my body to just carry on.

As above - its risk management. I may keel over one day, but I won't be moping around taking it easy in my armchair!

You also mention physical challenge. I'm not always into the challenge bit, but if I go for long withot some serious exercise I start to feel sluggish, dozy, and ill.


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## Jonathan M (2 Sep 2009)

Bill Gates said:


> Davidc
> 
> Just seen this and I'm going to order some. It's called Ateronon
> 
> ...



Check that there are no interactions with your other drug therapy first.


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## Bill Gates (2 Sep 2009)

Jonathan M said:


> Check that there are no interactions with your other drug therapy first.



I only take 75mg aspirin a day so no problem.


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## Bill Gates (3 Sep 2009)

nigelnorris said:


> I wasn't talking about the OP but something he said later, that he:
> 
> "...googled side effects of statins and found that they were poisoning my system"




http://www.thefreedictionary.com/poison

Seems reasonable to me.


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## nigelnorris (3 Sep 2009)

Bill Gates said:


> http://www.thefreedictionary.com/poison
> 
> Seems reasonable to me.


You really want me back in this conversation? You told me move on but I'd be quite happy to carry on where I left off?


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## Bill Gates (3 Sep 2009)

nigelnorris said:


> I wasn't talking about the OP but something he said later, that he:
> 
> "...googled side effects of statins and found that they were poisoning my system"



http://www.thefreedictionary.com/poison


Like I said. Seems reasonable to me.


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## nigelnorris (3 Sep 2009)

Bill Gates said:


> http://www.thefreedictionary.com/poison
> 
> 
> Like I said. Seems reasonable to me.


You can find a website to agree with anything if you look hard enough. And you're a believer Bill Gates. Could write it on a piece of bog roll and you'd believe it. 

Then come here and try and spread the Big Word. OMGZ STATINS KILLS YOU AAALLLL. Bill Gates googled it so it must be true. Got to come here cos they laughed you out of C+ when you tried it there.

Just like this tomato pill nonsense you've been banging on about. £99 per quarter from Boots with no full scale testing or research done. I've got some beans here if you want to spend money Bill. Magic beans they are.


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## Bill Gates (3 Sep 2009)

nigelnorris said:


> You can find a website to agree with anything if you look hard enough. And you're a believer Bill Gates. Could write it on a piece of bog roll and you'd believe it.
> 
> Then come here and try and spread the Big Word. OMGZ STATINS KILLS YOU AAALLLL. Bill Gates googled it so it must be true. Got to come here cos they laughed you out of C+ when you tried it there.
> 
> Just like this tomato pill nonsense you've been banging on about. £99 per quarter from Boots with no full scale testing or research done. I've got some beans here if you want to spend money Bill. Magic beans they are.


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## SpokeyDokey (12 Feb 2020)

*Mod note:*

Locked as the latest bout of postings (deleted) have no relevance to the thread topic.

Thread not deleted as some of the info' may still be of use to some members.


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