# Heavier cyclists are quicker up hill?



## pclay (7 May 2018)

About 5 years ago I was 17 stone, but now I am 14 stone, loosing gradually over the years by watching what I ate, and I started cycling. I am 6ft2, so I am not what I would call 'fat'. I cycle around 5000 miles per year.

The club I ride with have some riders who are heavier than me. Some must be about 3 stone heavier, i.e. about 17 stone, just like I used to be. And yet they beat me up every hill. How can this be? 

I appreciate that the amount of effort is what counts, but it seems to be consistent. Some heavier riders consistently beat me up every hill. 

I did hear that if you are used to carrying around weight, then your legs are developed for it, and therefore going up hill is easier. I just find it so frustrating.

Does anyone else experience the same? Or perhaps I just need to try harder.


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## screenman (7 May 2018)

I think you may have rewritten the laws of garvity there, they are I imagine fitter of trying harder. Power to weight I would imagine comes into play as well.


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## Vantage (7 May 2018)

Alot of that weight will be muscle I bet.


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## Pat "5mph" (7 May 2018)

I wish! 
Maybe you need better gears, or more stamina.


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## ColinJ (7 May 2018)

pclay said:


> About 5 years ago I was 17 stone, but now I am 14 stone, loosing gradually over the years by watching what I ate, and I started cycling. I am 6ft2, so I am not what I would call 'fat'. I cycle around 5000 miles per year.


Well done on what you have lost so far, but unless you are very muscular then you are still a bit overweight!

I was 17 stone too a few years ago and am only an inch shorter than you. I am down to 13 st 4 lbs now but still have at least 4 inches of fat round my waist.



pclay said:


> The club I ride with have some riders who are heavier than me. Some must be about 3 stone heavier, i.e. about 17 stone, just like I used to be. And yet they beat me up every hill. How can this be?
> 
> I appreciate that the amount of effort is what counts, but it seems to be consistent. Some heavier riders consistently beat me up every hill.
> 
> ...


As screenman just pointed out - climbing speed is all about power-to-weight ratio. If somebody weighs 20% more than you but can put out 50% more power then they are going to climb way faster.


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## Soltydog (7 May 2018)

It's not all about power to weight  Whilst that might be the major factor, there's other things to consider too. Technique, gear selection & breathing all play a part in climbing.
I'm a similar build, 6'5" & currently 16 stone. I'm never going to be the worlds greatest climber but I try my best. 2015 I was a little lighter & managed a top 10 strava time on a climb nearby which I was well happy about


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## Slick (7 May 2018)

It's certainly a new one on me.


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## night cycler (7 May 2018)

Efficiency of heart, lungs, legs and the total mass being hauled.


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## Shut Up Legs (7 May 2018)

On my 2016 cycling trip to the French Alps and Pyrénées, there was a cyclist who weighed 100kg and consistently beat most of the cyclists in my tour group up the hills, even though I'm pretty sure he was the heaviest in our group. As others have mentioned above, technique and practice were probably the reason for this apparent defiance of gravity.


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## Cycleops (7 May 2018)

The up side to this is that they're definitely faster going down hill .


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## Sharky (7 May 2018)

Might be worth enquiring about the history of these heavier riders. Might surprise you of their past achievements. One of our "older" riders was a "pro" back in the 60's and still hasn't slowed down.


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## gavroche (7 May 2018)

Miguel Indurain wasn't exactly a lightweight and yet, he could take on the best light weight climbers.


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## midlife (7 May 2018)

Is it like the tides? Something to do with the gravitational attraction of the moon?


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## gavroche (7 May 2018)

I k


pclay said:


> About 5 years ago I was 17 stone, but now I am 14 stone, loosing gradually over the years by watching what I ate, and I started cycling. I am 6ft2, so I am not what I would call 'fat'. I cycle around 5000 miles per year.
> 
> The club I ride with have some riders who are heavier than me. Some must be about 3 stone heavier, i.e. about 17 stone, just like I used to be. And yet they beat me up every hill. How can this be?
> 
> ...


I know how you feel, I regurlarly get past by heavier and lighter riders on hills.


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## Drago (7 May 2018)

Could it be they are stronger?


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## smutchin (7 May 2018)

Drago said:


> Could it be they are stronger?



Or maybe they’re riding lighter bikes?


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## Ianboydsnr (7 May 2018)

I think it’s down to fitness,

They are fitter than you, if you were as fit as them you would beat them uphill, because you would have less to carry up the hill, 
You could be not quite as fit, but still beat them uphill,


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## Venod (7 May 2018)

Fitness, power to weight ratio it all counts, I have done a lot running and put this down to my general fitness, I was 60 before I started using Strava and I got quite a few KOMs some of which I still have, I am usually between 12 to 12.5 stone, 5ft 10in so not particularly light, I have slowed down a bit a lately, old age and lethargy, I have considered starting running again to boost my fitness but the knees have had a lot of hammer over the years and not sure if they are up to it. I have just done a 50 mile ride with a lot of rough off road so the average speed was only 14mph, my heart rate was 119 average with a high of 150.


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## Drago (7 May 2018)

Maybe there is a pie on a stick dangled in front of them?

I'm not an especially quick climber, although I'm not turgid either, but I'm indefatigable. I can just hammer away relentlessly, which might seem fast to weedier riders who initially spurt off but then run out of puff.


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## Dayvo (7 May 2018)

_Heavier cyclists are quicker up hill?_

Err, not this one!


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## screenman (7 May 2018)

Drago said:


> Maybe there is a pie on a stick dangled in front of them?
> 
> I'm not an especially quick climber, although I'm not turgid either, but I'm indefatigable. I can just hammer away relentlessly, which might seem fast to weedier riders who initially spurt off but then run out of puff.



What type of pie are we talking about?


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## Slick (7 May 2018)

screenman said:


> What type of pie are we talking about?


I couldn't care less what type, what size.


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## huwsparky (7 May 2018)

Soltydog said:


> It's not all about power to weight  Whilst that might be the major factor, there's other things to consider too. Technique, gear selection & breathing all play a part in climbing.
> I'm a similar build, 6'5" & currently 16 stone. I'm never going to be the worlds greatest climber but I try my best. 2015 I was a little lighter & managed a top 10 strava time on a climb nearby which I was well happy about


How fast one can go up a hill is all about power to weight. End of. Take aerodynamics out of the equasion and there's nothing else left at play.


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## ColinJ (7 May 2018)

huwsparky said:


> How fast one can go up a hill is all about power to weight. End of. Take aerodynamics out of the equasion and there's nothing else left at play.


I posted above it was '_all_' about p-w ratio, but I think it should have been '_mostly_'!

I do much better climbing steep hills spinning low gears than I do grinding high ones.

My climbing speed recently has been limited by backache rather than being breathless or my heart beating too fast.


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## Drago (7 May 2018)

screenman said:


> What type of pie are we talking about?



Fray Bentos of course, or a pukka pie if you're a bit posh.


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## screenman (7 May 2018)

Drago said:


> Fray Bentos of course, or a pukka pie if you're a bit posh.



Hope it has a light pastry.


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## Ianboydsnr (7 May 2018)

ColinJ said:


> I posted above it was '_all_' about p-w ratio, but I think it should have been '_mostly_'!
> 
> I do much better climbing steep hills spinning low gears than I do grinding high ones.
> 
> My climbing speed recently has been limited by backache rather than being breathless or my heart beating too fast.


Backache is what I had climbing a 25 degree hill today, I do go up it using my road bike and compact gears, but i am not spinning the gears to make it easy, to do that I need to get lighter or fitter, or a bigger rear sprocket.


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## Welsh wheels (7 May 2018)

The heavier ones in my experience like to prove they are still fit so they push it hard uphill!


pclay said:


> About 5 years ago I was 17 stone, but now I am 14 stone, loosing gradually over the years by watching what I ate, and I started cycling. I am 6ft2, so I am not what I would call 'fat'. I cycle around 5000 miles per year.
> 
> The club I ride with have some riders who are heavier than me. Some must be about 3 stone heavier, i.e. about 17 stone, just like I used to be. And yet they beat me up every hill. How can this be?
> 
> ...


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## Kajjal (7 May 2018)

Welsh wheels said:


> The heavier ones in my experience like to prove they are still fit so they push it hard uphill!



You mean the real men ripped like the bronzed Adonis of cycling


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## Welsh wheels (7 May 2018)

Kajjal said:


> You mean the real men ripped like the bronzed Adonis of cycling


Real men hide their muscles well because they don't want to show off and make everyone else feel bad


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## Milzy (7 May 2018)

My mate can blast out 600 w on flat but I destroy him up hills because my power to weight ratio is more advanced than his.


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## huwsparky (7 May 2018)

ColinJ said:


> I posted above it was '_all_' about p-w ratio, but I think it should have been '_mostly_'!
> 
> I do much better climbing steep hills spinning low gears than I do grinding high ones.
> 
> My climbing speed recently has been limited by backache rather than being breathless or my heart beating too fast.


How you achieve the power is irrelevant. How fast any individual will go up a given hill without taking aerodynamics into account is down to the weight and the power.

If A 50kg rider is riding side by side with a 100kg rider the 50kg rider needs half the power. Doesn't matter if one is breathing heavy or has a bad back or even pedaling one with one foot.


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## Pat "5mph" (7 May 2018)

Drago said:


> I'm not an especially quick climber, although I'm not turgid either,


Did you mean "lethargic"?


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## rivers (7 May 2018)

I'm 9 stone. I'm slow up hills. I have f*ck all power. I will eventually make it up though


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## Ianboydsnr (7 May 2018)

huwsparky said:


> How you achieve the power is irrelevant. How fast any individual will go up a given hill without taking aerodynamics into account is down to the weight and the power.
> 
> If A 50kg rider is riding side by side with a 100kg rider the 50kg rider needs half the power. Doesn't matter if one is breathing heavy or has a bad back or even pedaling one with one foot.



Surely they would only have half the power if they were only using one foot.


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## huwsparky (7 May 2018)

Ianboydsnr said:


> Surely they would only have half the power if they were only using one foot.


Think I better give up!


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## DaveReading (7 May 2018)

Ianboydsnr said:


> Backache is what I had climbing a 25 degree hill today



That's only a few degrees short of a 1 in 2. Chapeau.


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## Ming the Merciless (7 May 2018)

A bungy cord on passing bikes helps a lot.


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## ColinJ (7 May 2018)

huwsparky said:


> How you achieve the power is irrelevant. How fast any individual will go up a given hill without taking aerodynamics into account is down to the weight and the power.
> 
> If A 50kg rider is riding side by side with a 100kg rider the 50kg rider needs half the power. Doesn't matter if one is breathing heavy or has a bad back or even pedaling one with one foot.


It should be pretty obvious that I know that, given that I actually originally posted "_all about power-to-weight ratio_" ... 

It is also obvious that the only power that matters is the power that you actually manage to generate.

What I was getting at is that my body is quite capable of generating 20%, 25%, 30% (?) more power when my back isn't hurting. I can do a climb at the start of a ride (after a good warm-up) much quicker than I can later on when my back muscles are in knots.

PS So an important question for me is "_Why does my back start hurting after doing a lot of climbing even though I have a wide range of gears to use, and I am used to hills_?


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## vickster (7 May 2018)

ColinJ said:


> It should be pretty obvious that I know that, given that I actually originally posted "_all about power-to-weight ratio_" ...
> 
> It is also obvious that the only power that matters is the power that you actually manage to generate.
> 
> ...


Tight hamstrings, hip flexors, glutes?


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## ColinJ (7 May 2018)

vickster said:


> Tight hamstrings, hip flexors, glutes?


Yes! 

(I know - I've got the stretching books ... I just make excuses not to bother.)


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## vickster (7 May 2018)

ColinJ said:


> Yes!
> 
> (I know - I've got the stretching books ... I just make excuses not to bother.)


Get some sports massage  let someone else do the work


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## ColinJ (7 May 2018)

vickster said:


> Get some sports massage  let someone else do the work


I'm too delicate for that now, and can't afford it anyway. My cousin had a massage after his Tour de Yorkshire sportive ride yesterday - £15/15 minutes!


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## Drago (8 May 2018)

huwsparky said:


> How you achieve the power is irrelevant. How fast any individual will go up a given hill without taking aerodynamics into account is down to the weight and the power.
> 
> If A 50kg rider is riding side by side with a 100kg rider the 50kg rider needs half the power. Doesn't matter if one is breathing heavy or has a bad back or even pedaling one with one foot.



But the 100kg rider may be capable of making twice the power. Or more. I'm 111kg, and I'm pretty sure I can crank out more power than a 55kg rider of otherwise comparable age, health and fitness, simply because I am able to support the musculature to do so.


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## Slick (8 May 2018)

ColinJ said:


> I'm too delicate for that now, and can't afford it anyway. My cousin had a massage after his Tour de Yorkshire sportive ride yesterday - £15/15 minutes!


Sounds like not a bad deal to me.


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## ColinJ (8 May 2018)

Slick said:


> Sounds like not a bad deal to me.


That's what my cousin said!

Assuming that they could do three 15-minute massages in an hour, it sounds like a nice little earner to me.


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## greenmark (8 May 2018)

Isn't this about the duration of the climb? Who can generate the most power/weight only until the climb is over.

Heavy riders like Peter Sagan can generate loads of W/Kg for 10 minutes or so, which is why he wins punchy climbs. But he doesn't last much longer than that.
Light ones will like Romain Bardet win on very long sustained Alpine mountains.

BTW on the Bespoke podcast someone mentioned that the top GC contenders like Froome, Bardet and previous winners tend to have a very close weight to height ratio of 2lbs per inch.


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## screenman (8 May 2018)

ColinJ said:


> That's what my cousin said!
> 
> Assuming that they could do three 15-minute massages in an hour, it sounds like a nice little earner to me.



There you go then, just need some customers, insurance, training and a few other overheads and you have a business. I doubt these guys make a fortune doing sports massages.


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## scotjimland (8 May 2018)

Cycleops said:


> The up side to this is that they're definitely faster going down hill .



are you sure about that ?

Newtons Laws of Gravity would say otherwise.

Ignoring the effects of air resistance, two falling objects of a different mass fall at the the same speed

Only air resistance affects the speed.. 

So If they are heavier and therefore bigger, they will have more air resistance so will actually fall slower.. ?

That's my understanding anyway.


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## Milkfloat (8 May 2018)

scotjimland said:


> are you sure about that ?
> 
> Newtons Laws of Gravity would say otherwise.
> 
> ...



The larger/heavier rider experiences less drag (wind resistance) in proportion to gravitational force and therefore goes faster.

However, if the heavy cyclist was significantly less aero than the light cyclist then the result could be different. Therefore, even Drago should try and get in a tuck.


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## vickster (8 May 2018)

ColinJ said:


> I'm too delicate for that now, and can't afford it anyway. My cousin had a massage after his Tour de Yorkshire sportive ride yesterday - £15/15 minutes!


That's not bad, although 15 minutes isn't enough to do both legs properly. I paid £35 for 30 mins recently when my neck seized up after crazy long weeks of desk work!


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## Salty seadog (8 May 2018)

scotjimland said:


> are you sure about that ?
> 
> Newtons Laws of Gravity would say otherwise.
> 
> ...



Newton's law is correct in a vacuum where there is zero air resistance. All other things being equal a heavier rider will be faster coasting downhill (excluding of course in a vacuum) as their greater mass has greater potential energy.


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## scotjimland (8 May 2018)

Salty seadog said:


> Newton's law is correct in a vacuum where there is zero air resistance. All other things being equal a heavier rider will be faster coasting downhill (excluding of course in a vacuum) as their greater mass has greater potential energy.


nonsense


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## huwsparky (8 May 2018)

Drago said:


> But the 100kg rider may be capable of making twice the power. Or more. I'm 111kg, and I'm pretty sure I can crank out more power than a 55kg rider of otherwise comparable age, health and fitness, simply because I am able to support the musculature to do so.


I've never disputed that. A few pro cyclist come to mind that have been around the 90kg mark.


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## Salty seadog (8 May 2018)

scotjimland said:


> nonsense



Perform the famous experiment in this clip in your garden . I'll be kind and just make it a sportsman's bet than the hammer hits the Earth first . This is Because the hammer has a higher mass and therefore a higher potential energy .



The only situation where the rider with the lower mass would be faster downhill would be if his area was so huge that the increase in air resistance produced was in excess of their gain in potential energy over the smaller rider.

This is unlikely without putting them through a mangle.


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## Drago (8 May 2018)

Fatties are unlikely to roll downhill much faster, unless their skinny counterparts are made of feathers. However, they are able to benefit from their greater interita, so all other things equal will roll further.


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## Alan O (8 May 2018)

I'd love to be able to believe that we fatties are faster uphill, but sadly I have the laws of physics and a lifetime of experience to shatter such illusions


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## ColinJ (8 May 2018)

I can assure you that big, heavy riders can go down steep hills faster than skinny, light riders (assuming simple descents with no braking required) ...



ColinJ said:


> I had a laugh in Spain once. I was slogging my way up a long switch-backed climb and I looked down a few bends and saw a fit-looking cyclist racing up towards me. It turned out to be a young woman - very petite, and very fit. She slowed briefly as she passed me, smiled and said "Keep going it's only about 800 metres to the top!" then she shot off and left me for dead. I looked up the hill and saw her go over the top and begin her descent. A couple of minutes later I got up there and set off in pursuit. I went past her at 70 kph just before the bottom of the hill and then meandered along the flatter road at the bottom to give her a chance to catch up. When she came alongside me she was red-faced from her exertions. She told me that she'd been spinning out in her 53/13 and asked how I'd managed to catch her. She didn't believe me when I told her that I'd hardly had to pedal...



The basic reason is that the frontal (drag-producing) area of a rider increases much less quickly than (gravity-loving) mass with increasing size of rider.

An example to illustrate the phenomenon - a square-sided solid box with sides 1 metre long weighs 100 kg. If you double the lengths of the sides then each face would now be 4 square metres instead of 1 square metre, but the mass would now be 800 kg instead of 100. That's 8 times the accelerating force but only 4 times the drag-inducing area. 

Going up a steep hill we can virtually ignore drag. A fit rider of mass 100 kg may very well not have 50% more power than a fit rider of mass 66.7 kg, in which case Ms/Mr Skinny has an advantage over Ms/Mr Big.


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## Kajjal (8 May 2018)

ColinJ said:


> I can assure you that big, heavy riders can go down steep hills faster than skinny, light riders (assuming simple descents with no braking required) ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Being a 100kg, 2m tall wind break , if you use real life figures as I am not 2m wide and tall, does being heavier still give me the advantage ?

My experience is I am much faster downhill on hydraulic disc brakes, compared to rim brakes which I appreciate is another difference.


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## Kajjal (8 May 2018)

Dogtrousers said:


> If you want to get some theoretical values you can use this calculator. https://www.gribble.org/cycling/power_v_speed.html
> 
> If you put the weight of the rider in kg, and the gradient in the parameters box on the left, then enter a miniscule power in the box at the bottom (eg 0.001 watts) you'll get the terminal freewheeling velocity.
> 
> ...



Thanks taking the time to reply, at 100kg I am faster downhill , but not uphill


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## pclay (8 May 2018)

Well, well, well, looks like I generated some debate. The reality is, cyclists who are 2 stone heavier than me can go quicker up hill than me. From reading the above, I just need to try harder. I have been cycling for 4 and a half years and I have done 20,000 miles in that time, but I still need to push harder on those pedals....


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## Alan O (8 May 2018)

pclay said:


> Wel, wel, well, looks like I generated some debate. The reality is, cyclists who are 2 stone heavier than me. An go quicker up hill than me. From reading the above, I just need to try harder. I have been cycling for 4 and a half years and I have done 20,000 miles in that time, but I still need to pish harder on those pedals....


Some people are simply stronger climbers than others, and in many cases there's nothing you can do other than just accept it.


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## Venod (8 May 2018)

I don't know what power to weight ratio Mark Cavendish has, it must be high, he is not very big, but his power doesn't translate into being a good climber.


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## huwsparky (8 May 2018)

Afnug said:


> I don't know what power to weight ratio Mark Cavendish has, it must be high, he is not very big, but his power doesn't translate into being a good climber.


Different riders have different strengths. Cav's is sprinting, so In order to be as good as he can be at it, his training is optimised for sprinting not having a good w/kg over 30 mins.


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## Lonestar (8 May 2018)

.Must be that their fitness is very good or they have a good "engine".I've had the turbo trainer almost one year now doing the spinning equivalent of 4000 miles at 15+mph av...I've lost over two stone and my hill climbing is better.Even in today's heat after leaving home at 0330am and getting back at 330pm I didn't struggle as I would normally do from being overtired.


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