# Has the YHA gone bonkers?



## Cush (13 Jun 2011)

I have just tried to book in at a hostel on the Southwest coast for early September. On the availability page it showed that there was room for a single but on the hostel web page it said there was no availability. So I phoned HQ. I was told that there was a bed in a dorm for a female but not a male *BUT there is a double male room for £52 yes thats right £52. *Naturaly I declined. Does the YHA know that you can get rooms in Travelodge for as little as £20 and even the top prices are only £45 - £60 and this includes en-suite showers. I did get booked in to another hostel but it means a change of route. Another Hostel on the same trip is charging £22 but the next night I will be in at a reasonable quality B&B in a large city 60 miles away for £25. I think the YHA has lost it's way


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## samid (13 Jun 2011)

I once paid £25 for a campsite. In my defense, it was the first night of my first tour, and I was exhausted...


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## andym (13 Jun 2011)

I'm guessing that you were trying to book into a hostel somewhere nice. Was there a Travelodge there - as opposed to at a motorway junction 50 miles away?

£52 is a lot - if the room doesn't have ensuite showers, but the fact that the hostel is booked up almost three months in advance doesn't really suggest that the YHA prices are that outrageous.


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## funnymummy (13 Jun 2011)

We reguarly use YHA's, I have to book a family room, last stop over inc meals cost £79, But as there arn't many 'hotels' in the middle of nowhereness then that's the price we pay for a nights comfort mid roughing it!


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## Brandane (14 Jun 2011)

andym said:


> I'm guessing that you were trying to book into a hostel somewhere nice. Was there a Travelodge there - as opposed to at a motorway junction 50 miles away?
> 
> £52 is a lot - if the room doesn't have ensuite showers, but the fact that the hostel is booked up almost three months in advance doesn't really suggest that the YHA prices are that outrageous.



No, but what it does suggest is that they are now "Youth Hostels" in name only. In reality they have opened themselves up to the general public (£2 for a daily membership) and have in effect become budget hotels, with prices set accordingly.


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## hubbike (14 Jun 2011)

YHA has to subsidise far flung hostels with the more popular ones. no one else could have a hostel in glen afric or by loch ossian. On the other hand many hostels are closing now Helvelyn is a lovely hostel and I hear it is going to close...they quite often make a loss.

I'd hate YHA to disappear but I also think that they need to seriously think about who they are aimed at...


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## Tim Bennet. (14 Jun 2011)

> I think the YHA has lost it's way


It lost it's way years ago. 

That's why it's selling / sold its hostels at Hawkshead, Derwent Water, Thirlmere, etc, etc. 
These are not isolated places well off the beaten track, but in the major centres of the Lake District. 
If it can't run those, what hope is there?


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## Crackle (14 Jun 2011)

I can't decide if it's lost its way. YHA's were always booked up, especially in August. You could never just ring up and get a bed. I often turned up on the hope that someone wouldn't and luckily, nearly always got in.

Many's the time I've been kept awake by some snorer or restless sleeper too, smaller two bed dorms were a revelation when I went hostelling in France and now as a family, having a room to ourselves is great and you still have the kitchen facilities etc... that a hostel provides, plus and it's a big plus, the all day access you now have.

They are expensive though. I baulked at leaving, something like a £150 for a three night stay for me and the kids and the closing of so many has reduced the kind of weekend hostelling tour I might once have done. I like the improved facilities and the modernisation of the archaic rules but I'm saddened to see so many close and shocked at some prices. I have to say though, that quite a few decent independent hostels seem to have sprung up in their place, including some former hostels.


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## hubbike (14 Jun 2011)

yes that's true. although I think independent hostels will never appear in the more remote spots which are so appealing. perhaps bothies and camping barns will take up the slack there.

Around Scotland bunkhouses generally go for between £10 -£20 (with no requirement to be a member, more relaxed atmosphere and no daft rules about curfews) whereas YHA charge more like £15 -£ 25 for a dorm bed and staff can be jobsworths at times, inforcing rules like they're school teachers. 

In edinburgh you could stay in 
the YHA £25
the independent hostel £10
or a B&B for £30 (with breakfast, TV, ensuite and friendly landlady)

you pays your money and takes your choice...but I like to have access to a kitchen.


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## andym (14 Jun 2011)

Brandane said:


> No, but what it does suggest is that they are now "Youth Hostels" in name only. In reality they have opened themselves up to the general public (£2 for a daily membership) and have in effect become budget hotels, with prices set accordingly.



I was in a 'youth' hostel (in Italy) the other night and I'd swear the average age was somewhere north of 60! 

What's wrong with being open to the general public?

Yes youth hostels are competing with budget hotels - i was talking to the person who runs one of the hostels that I stayed at recently who was saying that increasingly people expect hostels to be like hotels. There might be some who are prepared to rough it with bothy/refuge type accommodation but I suspect they are in the minority.

Hubbike

- I thought YHAs in the UK had done away with lockouts?
- the Edinburgh YHA is pretty good.


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## hubbike (14 Jun 2011)

I had a bad night there with some loud snoring...and it was 25 quid which I don't think is competitive for a dorm bed. I could have had a room to myself and breakfast for £30 in a b&b. more fool me.

I might be out of date with lock outs, but the YHA still has lots of daft rules ...when the kitchen is out of bounds etc. and sometimes their atmosphere is a bit formal and uptight. There are some fantastic youth hostels, and I generally support them but to have a future I think they need to reappraise what they are. 

I think the YHA is something far more important than a "low cost hotel" chain. but if they don't put their finger on where they are going wrong, youth hostels will disappear and we won't get them back.


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## Bodhbh (15 Jun 2011)

For the small amount of time I've been using them, the YHA pricing has mostly been just under B&Bs for 2 people....it's not great value for money, but the main advantage being, solo, is that you can get a dorm bed for 18-25 quid or whatever, rather than having to fork out for a twin room in a B&B. They are not cheap, but generally are up to a certain standard. They seem to be aiming at weekend breaks for middle classes families rather than solo travellers, but whatever, there's other options.


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## Ticktockmy (15 Jun 2011)

Having been a member of the YHA on and off since the late 1950’s, I have watched the Organisation change quite a lot.
Some changes are for the good, but I feel the loss of the many simple hostels has made the use of the YHA somewhat useless for the walker or cyclist.

My idea of a hostel is the Gatliff Hebridean Hostels on the Outer Hebrides, which are simple, have all the requirements of an overnight stop.

On a few occasions I have phoned a hostel to see if they have spaces, which often they have but because there is a small school party at the hostel, they cannot allow me to stay, never used to be like it, but times have changed.


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## Amanda P (15 Jun 2011)

I get the impression that the YHA is turning its attention to school trips and the like. They can fill a hostel with one booking, and the hostels that remain are often the ones in towns or cities which a coach can drive up to, and their car parks are rarely empty. Meanwhile, the small, simple remote ones are disappearing.

Funny, SYHA charges less membership, but retains many hostels in out-of-the-way places. The Gatliff trust does too - and I don't even have to be a member to use those.


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## furball (15 Jun 2011)

SYHA are starting to advertise higher priced 'associate' hostels. In this years booklet, en suite rooms with televisions in St Andrews (I assume these are university halls of residence) are £49.99. I cant see how people who choose to be members of SYHA would be looking for these types of facilities or would want to pay those sort of prices. Perhaps SYHA are looking to tap into the golfing market. I just hope this isn't setting a precedent.


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## Black knight (16 Jun 2011)

Stayed in one of the Scottish ones lst year. Fantastic spot. Was about £15 iirc.


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## Flying_Monkey (16 Jun 2011)

The YHA some time ago, I and many others thought, illegally, changed its charitable purposes, and started closing remote rural hostels and aiming for a more urban market. We tried to stop them, and have a debate, but they bulldozed all opposition. That's when I left. 

It is far, far from what it used to be. The sad thing is that what is used to be is exactly what people need now. 

It's a prime example of what moving from a social model to a market model does to what was once a rather brilliant institution.


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## andym (16 Jun 2011)

Flying_Monkey said:


> It's a prime example of what moving from a social model to a market model does to what was once a rather brilliant institution.



But isn't the problem for organisations like the YHA that they *do* operate in the market - if people don't pay to become members or pay to stay then they can't pay their bills?

(i'm strictly a disinterested observer - YHA member but that's it).


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## hubbike (16 Jun 2011)

Flying_Monkey said:


> The YHA some time ago, I and many others thought, illegally, changed its charitable purposes, and started closing remote rural hostels and aiming for a more urban market. We tried to stop them, and have a debate, but they bulldozed all opposition. That's when I left.
> 
> It is far, far from what it used to be. The sad thing is that what is used to be is exactly what people need now.
> 
> It's a prime example of what moving from a social model to a market model does to what was once a rather brilliant institution.



http://www.yha.org.uk/about-yha/corporate-information/how_we_operate.aspx

YHA is still a charity, with the following aim:

“To help all, especially young people of limited means, to a greater knowledge, love and care of the countryside, and appreciation of the cultural values of towns and cities, particularly by providing youth hostels or other accommodation for them in their travels, and thus to promote their health recreation and education.” 

I think it is worth noting that the youth hostel's origins were in school groups. Hikers and cyclists came later and forced it to change focus (dropping the chores, etc.)

I fear that modernisations to youth hostels make the job of helping people experience the countryside harder rather than easier.


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## Red Light (16 Jun 2011)

andym said:


> But isn't the problem for organisations like the YHA that they *do* operate in the market - if people don't pay to become members or pay to stay then they can't pay their bills?



The YHA went through a crisis several years ago that is not unlike that of the village shop/supermarket debate. Everyone wanted the Youth Hostels but not enough of them were actually using most of them to make them viable. In the Use It or Lose It battle the old Youth Hostels were largely lost.

But if folks want to object to day membership, I can remember the kerfuffle when they removed the requirement you had to arrive under your own power and allowed you to drive and park there instead. In reality its all just part of their evolution in a changing market.


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## Red Light (16 Jun 2011)

hubbike said:


> I think it is worth noting that the youth hostel's origins were in school groups. Hikers and cyclists came later and forced it to change focus (dropping the chores, etc.)



I can remember the days when everyone was expected to pitch in to do the washing up, sweep out the hostel and empty the wastebins.


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## Ticktockmy (16 Jun 2011)

hubbike said:


> http://www.yha.org.u...we_operate.aspx
> 
> YHA is still a charity, with the following aim:
> 
> ...



When I was a lad, the hostels were used mostly by peeps from 14 yo upwards to late teens(70+) very raraly did you see school parties, it was a different world in the fifties, and few schools run field trips. I like most of my elk never had a problem with the chores it was part of the experiance. However, once School parties found out about school field trips the rot set in, simple hostels were closed and sold to raise money to improve or buy more suitable premises able to cope with a influx of school children. then after a few years as the panic set in that saw all single males as perverts the hostels started to inforce group only access. which has defeated the original principle of the YHA.

These day I would still prefer to use the YH's but as B&B can cost but a few more pounds more that the Hostels I stay in B&B's
Bob G.


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## Tasker (16 Jun 2011)

(Nowadays) They're a joke - and more seriously, a nasty, increasingly expensive scam. Full of little chavs that couldn't give the proverbial "Tinkers Cuss" about the countryside except where the nearest pub doing Stella is. 

As far as I'm concerned they can stuff their 'catering to a changing market' if this is the result. I'm no longer a member of this ghastly enemy to everything the original ethos was all about, which is so sad as there's such a renewed interest of decent, normal people desperate to jump off the merry go round of urban life if only for a few days. 

Find your nearest Travelodge if you'd like a decent, modestly priced place to stay.


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## Jezston (16 Jun 2011)

When I did my coast to coast a few weeks back I mostly stayed in B&Bs because they were often CHEAPER than the nearest YHA. £30 for a bed in a dorm where I have to make my own beds etc, plus a fiver for breakfast, when for the same price or less I could get my own room with a comfy bed, bathroom breakfast included made sense.


The only YHA I stayed in was Osmotherley because I couldn't get a B&B. There was approx 4 other people staying there at the same time - had a whole dorm to myself. Apparently they are closing it down soon.


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## dellzeqq (16 Jun 2011)

Red Light said:


> I can remember the days when everyone was expected to pitch in to do the washing up, sweep out the hostel and empty the wastebins.


still the case in one hostel in Scotland!

back in the seventies we discovered Spain. Young people didn't want to go youth-hostelling. The car thing wasn't so much a change of mission, but, rather, an attempt to bring in more people.

From that point on the YHA has been stuck between a rock and a hard place. There was dreadful financial mismanagement by the 'professionals' and foot and mouth hit them even harder than it hit the CTC, but the basic problem is that not a lot of people want to sleep in dorms.


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## andym (16 Jun 2011)

Can anyone give the actual facts behind the allegations about bans on single men? I can understand the YHA not being keen on putting middle-aged men in dorms with teenagers (and in all honesty who in their right mind would want to share with schoolkids? No offence to any teenagers reading this, but you wouldn't invite your Grandad to a sleepover). I've stayed at YHAs that have had school parties in. 



Tasker said:


> (Nowadays) They're a joke - and more seriously, a nasty, increasingly expensive scam. Full of little chavs that couldn't give the proverbial "Tinkers Cuss" about the countryside except where the nearest pub doing Stella is.
> 
> As far as I'm concerned they can stuff their 'catering to a changing market' if this is the result. I'm no longer a member of this ghastly enemy to everything the original ethos was all about, which is so sad as there's such a renewed interest of decent, normal people desperate to jump off the merry go round of urban life if only for a few days.
> 
> Find your nearest Travelodge if you'd like a decent, modestly priced place to stay.



Hmm. And the original ethos presumably had nothing to do with tolerance and respect for people of different backgrounds? Or giving young urban working-class people the chance to get into into the countryside?

And the OP had to change the dates of his tour - which presumably means there wasn't a cheap Travelodge just waiting with a Bargainacious room.


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## andym (16 Jun 2011)

hubbike said:


> YHA is still a charity, with the following aim:
> 
> “To help all, especially young people of limited means, to a greater knowledge, love and care of the countryside, and appreciation of the cultural values of towns and cities, particularly by providing youth hostels or other accommodation for them in their travels, and thus to promote their health recreation and education.”



It's interesting to compare this with the otiginal:

“To help all, especially young people of limited means, to a greater knowledge, love and care of the countryside, particularly by providing hostels or other simple accommodation for them in their travels, and thus to promote their health, rest and education.”

The wikipedia article on the YHA is interesting and worth a read.


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## Bodhbh (17 Jun 2011)

Tasker said:


> (Nowadays) They're a joke - and more seriously, a nasty, increasingly expensive scam. Full of little chavs that couldn't give the proverbial "Tinkers Cuss" about the countryside except where the nearest pub doing Stella is.
> 
> As far as I'm concerned they can stuff their 'catering to a changing market' if this is the result. I'm no longer a member of this ghastly enemy to everything the original ethos was all about, which is so sad as there's such a renewed interest of decent, normal people desperate to jump off the merry go round of urban life if only for a few days.
> 
> Find your nearest Travelodge if you'd like a decent, modestly priced place to stay.



At risk of being trolled. A bit strong. I must admit, I tend to mainly use them for in overnight stops in towns/citys, not so much the rural ones. But if anything, they're a bit staid compared to the independent hostels. They are hardly dens of iniquity - they price out the party crowd for a start. When I have used them in rural locations, I've not found them much different. I think you're more likely to get ran over by one of the 4x4 cluttering up the drive, than savaged by hopped up chavs.


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## hubbike (17 Jun 2011)

Tasker said:


> Find your nearest Travelodge if you'd like a decent, modestly priced place to stay.



travelodge?

Seriously people, have none of you heard of a TENT before?


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## Brandane (17 Jun 2011)

hubbike said:


> travelodge?
> 
> Seriously people, have none of you heard of a TENT before?



Been there and done that, very recently. Carried my light-ish tent on the bike, along with the necessary sleeping bag, and self inflating thermarest mattress. So as light as possible, but still a hell of a difference when pulling it over a couple of days and 120 miles.

Then there was the camping experience. Put up tent while being attacked by midges. No entertainment for miles around (remote camp site) so early night. Uncomfortable sleep, until the sun came up about 4.30 am and that was end of sleep. Get up for a pee, and try to find a spot where I won't be seen (toilet block miles away). Watch condensation drip off roof of tent for a few hours, then get up. Queue up for awful shower. Take tent down while being attacked by midges again. Roll up soggy tent (condensation inside, dew outside) and pack it onto bike. Have greasy breakfast at site cafe, pay £6 for it. Pay site office £10 for my square of grass for the night. So £16 for "bed" and breakfast. A tenner more and I could have been in relative luxury.

NEVER; EVER, again!! (and that was without any bad weather).


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## Crackle (17 Jun 2011)

Brandane said:


> Been there and done that, very recently. Carried my light-ish tent on the bike, along with the necessary sleeping bag, and self inflating thermarest mattress. So as light as possible, but still a hell of a difference when pulling it over a couple of days and 120 miles.
> 
> Then there was the camping experience. Put up tent while being attacked by midges. No entertainment for miles around (remote camp site) so early night. Uncomfortable sleep, until the sun came up about 4.30 am and that was end of sleep. Get up for a pee, and try to find a spot where I won't be seen (toilet block miles away). Watch condensation drip off roof of tent for a few hours, then get up. Queue up for awful shower. Take tent down while being attacked by midges again. Roll up soggy tent (condensation inside, dew outside) and pack it onto bike. Have greasy breakfast at site cafe, pay £6 for it. Pay site office £10 for my square of grass for the night. So £16 for "bed" and breakfast. A tenner more and I could have been in relative luxury.
> 
> NEVER; EVER, again!! (and that was without any bad weather).




I know it wasn't meant to but that made me laugh. I think anyone who has cycled toured can identify with all of that. Camping has it's own pleasures, though sometimes they are not evident. I've certainly shared the lonely feeling of an isolated campsite, peeing rain and midges but I've also experienced being stretched out in the sun, peaceful and relaxed with a good camp meal inside me. 

Hostelling too has it's downsides. Who has not experienced a crowded noisy hostel, peeing down outside, condensation on the inside, all the cookers taken, people boiling teapots on the stove (normally Germans ), a queue for the showers, the dryers all busy and you standing there dripping from a day's riding in the rain. It's those moments you wish you were in a B&B. Now as for B&B's.........


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## Tasker (17 Jun 2011)

andym said:


> Hmm. And the original ethos presumably had nothing to do with tolerance and respect for people of different backgrounds? Or giving young urban working-class people the chance to get into into the countryside?



I'm a cycle camping person, simply because I don't think you can beat the experience but that's just my personal take on it but sometimes you just have to just have a shower and fall into a bed.

As a (once young) urban working class person myself I see we have more in common than you might think. Absolutely agree with what you've said. As for meeting people from different backgrounds, fine. Love to do it - but only with the proviso that they practice as a minimum, a basic consideration for their fellow travellers.

Therefore my advice still stands: find a cheap (but clean) alternative to these awful 'Yoof' Hostels - if at all possible - because if you're hoping to find yourself among fellow travellers who have arrived either by bike or foot, you've had it. And that's the sadness of it all.


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## Bromptonaut (17 Jun 2011)

andym said:


> Can anyone give the actual facts behind the allegations about bans on single men? I can understand the YHA not being keen on putting middle-aged men in dorms with teenagers (and in all honesty who in their right mind would want to share with schoolkids? No offence to any teenagers reading this, but you wouldn't invite your Grandad to a sleepover). I've stayed at YHAs that have had school parties in.



I got a huge amount out of the YHA in my youth and slightly later, including an intorduction to Mrs Bromp!! 

Our son is 16 & doing GCSE this year so in another week when his exams are finished he's free until 6th form starts in September. He was quite keen to do what I did in the seventies and bike or walk alone from hostel to in perhaps the Lakes, Peaks or West Country. YHA however won't allow under 18s in dormitory accom unless accompanied by an adult. He couldn't interest a mate in joining him and even if I had the leave going with your dad ain't the same type of break!! 

So that's a few more overnights lost.


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## hubbike (17 Jun 2011)

Bromptonaut said:


> I got a huge amount out of the YHA in my youth and slightly later, including an intorduction to Mrs Bromp!!
> 
> Our son is 16 & doing GCSE this year so in another week when his exams are finished he's free until 6th form starts in September. He was quite keen to do what I did in the seventies and bike or walk alone from hostel to in perhaps the Lakes, Peaks or West Country. *YHA however won't allow under 18s in dormitory accom unless accompanied by an adult.* He couldn't interest a mate in joining him and even if I had the leave going with your dad ain't the same type of break!!
> 
> So that's a few more overnights lost.



so in what way, shape or form are they a hostel for youth? A youth hostel that only puts up adults. The answer to this thread seems to be YES. The YHA have, in fact, gone completely bonkers!!!

Their very reason to exist is to provide hostel accommodation to young people and yet they refuse to do so. This is seriously weird.


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## TwoInTow (17 Jun 2011)

hubbike said:


> so in what way, shape or form are they a hostel for youth? A youth hostel that only puts up adults. The answer to this thread seems to be YES. The YHA have, in fact, gone completely bonkers!!!
> 
> Their very reason to exist is to provide hostel accommodation to young people and yet they refuse to do so. This is seriously weird.



Well, it's sad, but not weird. Widespread hysteria over paedophilia and child protection means that you _cannot_ run any sort of institution which has adults sleeping in the same room as children. YHA is not alone in being hamstrung by regulations which are aimed at preventing highly unusual, but still possible, abuse.


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## andym (17 Jun 2011)

TwoInTow said:


> Well, it's sad, but not weird. Widespread hysteria over paedophilia and child protection means that you _cannot_ run any sort of institution which has adults sleeping in the same room as children. YHA is not alone in being hamstrung by regulations which are aimed at preventing highly unusual, but still possible, abuse.



Are you sure that it's not more a question that the YHA becomes responsible for the children (and legally your son is still a child even if he is 16) and if anything were to happen the parents probably would hold the YHA responsible. I'd blame the 'compensation culture' rather than the YHA. But yes it is sad - another aspect of the way kids are much more supervised, organised and regimented than past generations.




Tasker said:


> Therefore my advice still stands: find a cheap (but clean) alternative to these awful 'Yoof' Hostels - if at all possible - because if you're hoping to find yourself among fellow travellers who have arrived either by bike or foot, you've had it. And that's the sadness of it all.



Are young people behaving worse or are old men getting grumpier? Or both? Discuss.


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## Cush (17 Jun 2011)

andym said:


> Are young people behaving worse or are old men getting grumpier? Or both? Discuss.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Cush (17 Jun 2011)

Sorry only meant to quote the first line of the last posting , bit tired tonight, five weeks of weeds, grass and hedge grown had to be dealt with today.


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## Alembicbassman (17 Jun 2011)

I'd have donned a wig and gone for the female dorm


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## Cush (17 Jun 2011)

I would have had to shave as well and I only do that when date has three zero's in it.


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## andym (18 Jun 2011)

Cush said:


> I would have had to shave as well and I only do that when date has three zero's in it.



You only shave in October?


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## Danny (19 Jun 2011)

To be fair to the YHA many of their hostels are pretty old now and desperately in need of refurbishment and modernisation. They simply do not have the funds to do them all up and have little prospect of getting grants or other kinds of funding.

There are still many good hostels around, and the ones that have been refurbished now offer a much better standard of accommodation.


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## Danny (19 Jun 2011)

Tim Bennet. said:


> It lost it's way years ago.
> 
> That's why it's selling / sold its hostels at Hawkshead, Derwent Water, Thirlmere, etc, etc.
> These are not isolated places well off the beaten track, but in the major centres of the Lake District.
> If it can't run those, what hope is there?


Despite my comments above I was shocked by some of the latest hostels to be put up for sale. And I hadn't realised they include Derwent Water which is often full all year round and in a stunning location.


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## Ticktockmy (20 Jun 2011)

Danny said:


> Despite my comments above I was shocked by some of the latest hostels to be put up for sale. And I hadn't realised they include Derwent Water which is often full all year round and in a stunning location.



I think they have looked at the total bed nights for an area, then looked at which hostel will raise the most cash if sold, without any regard to what the membership think or whether it is the most popular hostel in the area.


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## MacB (20 Jun 2011)

andym said:


> Can anyone give the actual facts behind the allegations about bans on single men?



Not particularly, but I know my sons recent school trip to Stow on the Wold was greatly increased in size. As it was a school party they had to take the entire accomodation whether they used it or not, so they increased the number of children to about 100. I don't know whether that was a school or hostel policy but my impression is hostel, but I suspect a bit of both.


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## Davidc (20 Jun 2011)

The YHA lost its way decades ago.

When I used them, in the 60s and 70s, often with friends, rarely with adults present, they provided what was wanted at an affordable price. That in many cases included what I often wanted, being able to camp in the grounds and use the hostel's facilities.

By the time my children wanted to go walking and cycling in the 1990s the YHA no longer provided what was wanted. They still went off on their own, normally camping using the by then available very light weight tents and kit.

The irrational, tabloid fuelled, paranoia over abuse of children hasn't helped, the compensation culture hasn't helped, but most of all it's a management failure. A failure to understand what the organisation existed for and develop it from that starting point


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## Danny (20 Jun 2011)

I believe you can still camp in the grounds of many hostels. 

Also my teenage son and his mates have been to stay in hostels on their own and have had a great time - though I suspect the other guests may have suffered a bit.


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## Danny (20 Jun 2011)

MacB said:


> Not particularly, but I know my sons recent school trip to Stow on the Wold was greatly increased in size. As it was a school party they had to take the entire accomodation whether they used it or not, so they increased the number of children to about 100. I don't know whether that was a school or hostel policy but my impression is hostel, but I suspect a bit of both.



I suspect this is less to do with health and safety and more to do with the fact that large school parties can be pretty rowdy and it is probably easier all round if they are not trying to share the hostel with other guests.


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## Danny (20 Jun 2011)

Davidc said:


> The YHA lost its way decades ago...
> 
> The irrational, tabloid fuelled, paranoia over abuse of children hasn't helped, the compensation culture hasn't helped, but most of all it's a management failure. A failure to understand what the organisation existed for and develop it from that starting point



What do you, or others, think the YHA should have done instead? 

I'm not happy with many of the hostel closures and the higher prices, but on the other hand I think most potential guests now expect better accommodation, food, and facilities than they got in the past. In an era of cheap package holidays I don't think there would have been a future for the YHA in just staying as it was.


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## Cush (20 Jun 2011)

They are called Youth Hostels yet most if not all have a fully stocked bar, is that a good example to set for youths? Esp when you see teachers knocking the drink back as if it was water.


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## Tim Bennet. (20 Jun 2011)

By the time they (financially) woke up, they actually had nowhere to go. Nearly every part of their customer base had been targeted by someone else with a more clearly defined product.

Since the peak of their popularity the amount of budget accommodation on offer, both in rural and urban areas has mushroomed. Not just B&Bs and private hostels, but Travel Lodges, camp sites, camping barns, mobile homes and cabins, couch surfing, etc.


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## hubbike (21 Jun 2011)

I suppose why this is being discussed _here_ is because many of us would like the YHA to offer good facilities for cyclists (and walkers). Their infrastructure puts them in an excellent position to do this. However many of the prerequisites are missing.

I posted in a previous thread things I wanted from my dream hostel when biking...how many are provided by YHA? 

I stayed in Alston YHA recently and noticed it had a very different character from many YHA hostels. very relaxed, friendly staff, a garden full of flowers, nicely painted, a friendly Labrador, a more homey feel, and a few interesting things on offer (you could buy frozen portions of home cooked food for example). We got chatting to the warden and she explained that she had bought the hostel from the YHA so she was free to run the place how she wanted. The difference was like night and day.

Perhaps this is the answer. To let individuals put their own creativity and ideas into something they need to take ownership of it. Probably literally. If I were a warden of a place, and I didn't expect it to be a job for life, why would I care?

The issue of youth not being able to use youth hostels really agitates me. 

"The latest Health Survey for England (HSE) data shows us that nearly 1 in 4 adults, and over 1 in 10 children aged 2-10, are obese."

The last thing we need to do is put up more obstacles to fresh air and the outdoors.


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## Danny (21 Jun 2011)

hubbike said:


> I suppose why this is being discussed _here_ is because many of us would like the YHA to offer good facilities for cyclists (and walkers). Their infrastructure puts them in an excellent position to do this. However many of the prerequisites are missing.
> 
> I posted in a previous thread things I wanted from my dream hostel when biking...how many are provided by YHA?
> 
> ...


To be fair I think there are still many hostels like Alston - I couldn't fault my recent stay at Malham YHA for example. 

The YHA policy on youths staying in hostels is actually as follows:

_Families with children under the age of 5 will need to book a private room. Children aged 5-15 can only stay when accompanied by a parent, guardian or as part of an organised group and when staying in shared accommodation the parent or guardian must be of the same sex._

Personally I don't think this sounds unreasonable.


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## andym (21 Jun 2011)

hubbike said:


> I suppose why this is being discussed _here_ is because many of us would like the YHA to offer good facilities for cyclists (and walkers). Their infrastructure puts them in an excellent position to do this. However many of the prerequisites are missing.



I must admit I've heard a lot of criticism of the YHA on this thread but I'm not sure how much of it is actually justified. Much of it seems to illustrate how the organisation is caught between conflicting demands. I'm sure that there are some people who would love hostels to be restricted to remote rural locations, walkers and cyclists only, no members of the general public, definitely no chavs, no drinking etc etc but I doubt the YHA would have much of a future on these terms.

The wikipedia article on the YHA has an interesting list of the hostels that the YHA has sold - quite a few (OK unfortunately by no means all) have become privately-owned and run as affiliates/franchises whatever you might call it under the YHA's Enterprise programme. Travelling in Italy, the AIG hostels I've stayed in seem to be privately-owned or operated in property owned by the local authority but leased out. As you say this may well be a better way to run hostels than a 'warden' who isn't likely to stay very long.

... but I'm equally sure you'll find plenty of GOMs who would moan about friendly Labradors.




Danny said:


> The YHA policy on youths staying in hostels is actually as follows:
> 
> _Families with children under the age of 5 will need to book a private room. Children aged 5-15 can only stay when accompanied by a parent, guardian or as part of an organised group and when staying in shared accommodation the parent or guardian must be of the same sex._
> 
> Personally I don't think this sounds unreasonable.



Me neither. Thanks for that.


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## Davidc (21 Jun 2011)

Danny said:


> What do you, or others, think the YHA should have done instead?
> 
> I'm not happy with many of the hostel closures and the higher prices, but on the other hand I think most potential guests now expect better accommodation, food, and facilities than they got in the past. In an era of cheap package holidays I don't think there would have been a future for the YHA in just staying as it was.



The hostels were nearly always full before they moved away from their basic accommodation model, but like many other organisations in the 70s and 80s their management felt they should modernise for the sake of it. I stopped using them when they allowed people to arrive by car, as did many others, because it instantly destroyed much of what had made them a great place to stay. From then on commercial small campsites were to me and many others a much better place to stay.

The whole issue of children not being encouraged, in fact being discouraged, from becoming indpendent and learning to look after themselves is one that comes down to perceptions, in the same way that cycling safety is, but isn't really a part of this thread


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## andym (21 Jun 2011)

Davidc said:


> The hostels were nearly always full before they moved away from their basic accommodation model, but like many other organisations in the 70s and 80s their management felt they should modernise for the sake of it. I stopped using them when they allowed people to arrive by car, as did many others, because it instantly destroyed much of what had made them a great place to stay. From then on commercial small campsites were to me and many others a much better place to stay.



And the vast majority of people at campsites small or otherwise arrive by car, or motorbike, or campervan.


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## Davidc (21 Jun 2011)

andym said:


> And the vast majority of people at campsites small or otherwise arrive by car, or motorbike, or campervan.



Yes, but once the same applied to YHA hostels the campsites became preferable. There were then books as there are now websites where you could find farm based camping with water a loo and a shower and 3 or 4 pitches, which were more enjoyable to stay at than what had become a cheap general purpose dormitory.

And I got a 2 person tent which only weighed 1.5kg - very low at the time.


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## Bromptonaut (21 Jun 2011)

Danny said:


> _Families with children under the age of 5 will need to book a private room. Children aged 5-15 can only stay when accompanied by a parent, guardian or as part of an organised group and when staying in shared accommodation the parent or guardian must be of the same sex._
> 
> Personally I don't think this sounds unreasonable.



Where did you find that? My first year as a Member was 1977 when this sort of stuff would have been crystal clear in the handbook. When Bromp junior had the 'go hostelling' idea I found diddley squat on the website so rang National Office. I was told unequivocally that he was not allowed in dormitory accomadation as a minor. While dismayed by that advice it was consistent with booking messages I'd had previously from SYHA (re a pre Stornoway ferry stay at Ullapool).

On checking however it did seem possible to reserve 16-18 bednigts sans restriction via the YHA website.


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## Danny (22 Jun 2011)

Bromptonaut said:


> *Where did you find that?* My first year as a Member was 1977 when this sort of stuff would have been crystal clear in the handbook. When Bromp junior had the 'go hostelling' idea I found diddley squat on the website so rang National Office. I was told unequivocally that he was not allowed in dormitory accomadation as a minor. While dismayed by that advice it was consistent with booking messages I'd had previously from SYHA (re a pre Stornoway ferry stay at Ullapool).
> 
> On checking however it did seem possible to reserve 16-18 bednigts sans restriction via the YHA website.



It is not all that easy to find, but it comes up if you try and book beds for children.


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## Danny (22 Jun 2011)

Davidc said:


> The hostels were nearly always full before they moved away from their basic accommodation model, but like many other organisations in the 70s and 80s their management felt they should modernise for the sake of it. I stopped using them when they allowed people to arrive by car, as did many others, because it instantly destroyed much of what had made them a great place to stay. From then on commercial small campsites were to me and many others a much better place to stay.
> 
> The whole issue of children not being encouraged, in fact being discouraged, from becoming indpendent and learning to look after themselves is one that comes down to perceptions, in the same way that cycling safety is, but isn't really a part of this thread


Given the appalling public transport in most rural areas, I don't think there would ever have been a future for the YHA if it had continued with its ban on people arriving by car. 

It has also made hostels much more accessible to families with young children.


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## mangaman (22 Jun 2011)

Tim Bennet. said:


> By the time they (financially) woke up, they actually had nowhere to go. Nearly every part of their customer base had been targeted by someone else with a more clearly defined product.
> 
> Since the peak of their popularity the amount of budget accommodation on offer, both in rural and urban areas has mushroomed. Not just B&Bs and private hostels, but Travel Lodges, camp sites, camping barns, mobile homes and cabins, couch surfing, etc.



I agree.

My GF had her 40th birthday in on of the most attracive and popular YHs around.

She booked the whole place for a week - which makes a YH a de-facto hotel.


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## Crackle (22 Jun 2011)

hubbike said:


> I suppose why this is being discussed _here_ is because many of us would like the YHA to offer good facilities for cyclists (and walkers). Their infrastructure puts them in an excellent position to do this. However many of the prerequisites are missing.
> 
> I posted in a previous thread things I wanted from my dream hostel when biking...how many are provided by YHA?
> 
> ...



I said earlier that this had happened to former hostels. In most cases it's a change for the better, independent hostels are now offering what people want. Why the YHA couldn't do this or doesn't get it I don't know. You just need to look through the independent hostel sights to see how it's done. I have to say that the English hostels seem to have lost the plot more than the Scottish hostels.


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## Danny (23 Jun 2011)

Crackle said:


> I said earlier that this had happened to former hostels. In most cases it's a change for the better, *independent hostels are now offering what people want*. Why the YHA couldn't do this or doesn't get it I don't know. You just need to look through the independent hostel sights to see how it's done. I have to say that the English hostels seem to have lost the plot more than the Scottish hostels.



I know there are some very good independent hostels, but I have also stayed in some that were truly grotty. At least you know that YHA hostels are all going to at least meet a certain minimum standard. 

In any case how do you define "what people want" when there is not a single homogeneous group hostel users who all want the same thing. The fact that the YHA is planning to close hostels like Derwentside that have high occupancy rates throughout the year, suggests that the problems it is facing are not due to a lack of popularity.

I've only stayed in a few Scottish hostels, but I can't say that I found them anything special.


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## Crackle (23 Jun 2011)

Danny said:


> I know there are some very good independent hostels, but I have also stayed in some that were truly grotty. At least you know that YHA hostels are all going to at least meet a certain minimum standard.
> 
> In any case how do you define "what people want" when there is not a single homogeneous group hostel users who all want the same thing. The fact that the YHA is planning to close hostels like Derwentside that have high occupancy rates throughout the year, suggests that the problems it is facing are not due to a lack of popularity.
> 
> I've only stayed in a few Scottish hostels, but I can't say that I found them anything special.




Staying in independents is a bit more of a lottery, however with careful research it's easy to find online reviews which tell you what to expect. YHA standards vary or varied too, within a smaller tolerance admittedly but they still vary.

What do people want: It's not so difficult or mysterious. Clean accomodation, reasonably priced and a range of pricing options. So, single room, shared dorm etc.. Flexible rules and the ability to use it whether you're in a group or by yourself. Self catering or able to buy a meal, a nice lounge to relax in, wiFi for people or some kind of internet access, probably a few more things and I don't see access to alchohol as one of them but pretty much that's it.

I don't understand your last sentence, define special, what are you looking for?

For myself I don't understand why the YHA is proividing this in some hostels, which are popular, try booking in one which has been transformed from the old model but closing others. Perhaps it's a simple case of only upgrading those they can make fit the new model and the others either can't or can but not economically. I think that may be their mistake though. There must be room for more than one model.


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## Danny (23 Jun 2011)

Crackle said:


> What do people want: It's not so difficult or mysterious. Clean accomodation, reasonably priced and a range of pricing options. So, single room, shared dorm etc.. Flexible rules and the ability to use it whether you're in a group or by yourself. Self catering or able to buy a meal, a nice lounge to relax in, wiFi for people or some kind of internet access, probably a few more things and I don't see access to alchohol as one of them but pretty much that's it.


Agree - but this description applies to most youth hostels I've stayed in lately. I would add helpful staff and good local knowledge to your list, which again applies to most YHA hostels.



Crackle said:


> I don't understand your last sentence, define special, what are you looking for?



I was looking for the things in your list above. Most Scottish hostels do not offer evening meals, and, at best, only provide a basic, and pretty poor value, continental breakfast. One hostel I stayed in was clearly just staffed by people from the nearest town who had no interest in outdoor activities and appeared bemused when I asked if they would be putting up a weather forecast for the next day.



Crackle said:


> For myself I don't understand why the YHA is proividing this in some hostels, which are popular, try booking in one which has been transformed from the old model but closing others. Perhaps it's a simple case of only upgrading those they can make fit the new model and the others either can't or can but not economically. I think that may be their mistake though. There must be room for more than one model.


What the YHA has said is that a lot of its hostels are now getting to an age where they require considerable refurbishment, and they simply don't have the capital required to fund all the work that is needed. Presumably the theory is that by selling off some prime hostels like Derwentside they can raise the money need to fund investment elsewhere.


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## dellzeqq (23 Jun 2011)

for reasons that could only be explained by the deep scars inscribed on my psyche by close aquaintance with the CTC accounts, I looked at the 2010 financial statement and found that 

direct profits on hostels were over £10M on a turnover of £39M
membership and fundraising brought in £3.3M
non-hostel costs £8.5M
depreciation and interest £4.6M
costs relating to re-organisation and investment £0.5M

deficit £0.1M

so they haven't got a lot of wiggle room. Other than in the accomodation where the occupancy rate was just over 50%. 

One thing I did find odd - the full time equivalent staff was almost 800 and the top six earners got almost half a million between them. That's on about 200 hostels. That seems a bit heavy.


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## Crackle (23 Jun 2011)

dellzeqq said:


> for reasons that could only be explained by the deep scars inscribed on my psyche by close aquaintance with the CTC accounts, I looked at the 2010 financial statement and found that
> 
> direct profits on hostels were over £10M on a turnover of £39M
> membership and fundraising brought in £3.3M
> ...




On the face of it you can't much argue with the figures but you can question why they are what they are and whether there current approach is the right direction.

I tend to view a 'professional mgt' approach as slightly anachronisitc with an organisation which was once about ideals and enthusiasims. Lose sight of your core values and you lose sight of the whole purpose. Why else would Independent hostels, which are subject to the same fire & safety regs, maintenace costs and other running overheads, be thriving where the YHA has closed hostels. They've even sold hostels to private individuals who still run them as YHA hostels, there's something definetly wrong there.

Here's a couple of interesting links

http://www.guardian.co.uk/travel/2011/feb/23/youth-hostels-association-selling-off

http://myreader.co.uk/msg/1366209.aspx


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## andym (23 Jun 2011)

Crackle said:


> On the face of it you can't much argue with the figures but you can question why they are what they are and whether there current approach is the right direction.
> 
> I tend to view a 'professional mgt' approach as slightly anachronisitc with an organisation which was once about ideals and enthusiasims. Lose sight of your core values and you lose sight of the whole purpose. Why else would Independent hostels, which are subject to the same fire & safety regs, maintenace costs and other running overheads, be thriving where the YHA has closed hostels. They've even sold hostels to private individuals who still run them as YHA hostels, there's something definetly wrong there.
> 
> ...



I don't know the ins and outs of the YHA's closure/divestment proramme. There are a number of reasons why it might choose to sell off a hostel 

- if it needed expensive repairs;
- if it was not covering costs

But equally you might sell off a hostel to raise capital to use for repairs or to reduce your borrowing. If the YHA can sell a hostel to raise money and that hostel continues to operate independently I personally can't see anything wrong in that. It's all very well people banging on about selling off the family silver, but if the roof is leaking then maybe selling off the family silver is something you have to do.

And enthusiasm and ideals are great - but the YHA has to cover its costs.

BTW the guardian article doesn't mention that one of the hostels in the divestment programme is Thameside one of the large London hostels - possibly because there's a rent review due? I don't know


mangaman said:


> I agree.
> 
> My GF had her 40th birthday in on of the most attracive and popular YHs around.
> 
> She booked the whole place for a week - which makes a YH a de-facto hotel.



Someone books a hostel for a whole week (off-season?) - providing no doubt a welcome chunk of change to the YHA. I'm struggling to see what the problem is.


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## Danny (23 Jun 2011)

Crackle said:


> On the face of it you can't much argue with the figures but you can question why they are what they are and whether there current approach is the right direction.
> 
> I tend to view a 'professional mgt' approach as slightly anachronisitc with an organisation which was once about ideals and enthusiasims. Lose sight of your core values and you lose sight of the whole purpose. Why else would Independent hostels, which are subject to the same fire & safety regs, maintenace costs and other running overheads, be thriving where the YHA has closed hostels. They've even sold hostels to private individuals who still run them as YHA hostels, there's something definetly wrong there.


Most hostels that have closed by the YHA have, sadly, not become independent hostels which suggests that they were not financially viable on their own. Indeed the YHA has traditionally used profits from the really popular hostels to subsidise other hostels, though this is clearly changing.

A large organisation like the YHA will have overheads not faced by independent hostels. For example they need to make most or all of their hostels accessible to the disabled to comply with the Disability Discrimination Act. They will also need to employ staff on proper terms and conditions, whereas many independent hostels are run as family businesses or, I suspect, manage to operate more "informal" employment arrangements.


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## funnymummy (23 Jun 2011)

Danny said:


> To be fair I think there are still many hostels like Alston - I couldn't fault my recent stay at Malham YHA for example.
> 
> The YHA policy on youths staying in hostels is actually as follows:
> 
> ...



It's not unreasonable, but it now means I won't be using YH's as often as before.
#2 goes to a Special activity club alternate weekedns & every summer hols, he goes for a week. #3 & I go off cycling alone, we did camp but often had one night in a YH (more depending on weather) of luxury 


#3 is now 7, so I have to book an entire family room for us, arther then him share a dorm bunk with me, one night in Cornwall last year cost less than £20, this year it would be £49


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## Crackle (23 Jun 2011)

Danny said:


> Most hostels that have closed by the YHA have, sadly, not become independent hostels which suggests that they were not financially viable on their own. Indeed the YHA has traditionally used profits from the really popular hostels to subsidise other hostels, though this is clearly changing.
> 
> A large organisation like the YHA will have overheads not faced by independent hostels. For example they need to make most or all of their hostels accessible to the disabled to comply with the Disability Discrimination Act. They will also need to employ staff on proper terms and conditions, whereas many independent hostels are run as family businesses or, I suspect, manage to operate more "informal" employment arrangements.



Yes, I take your point about costs of staff, I'm not sure you are 100% correct on the disability discrimination part, I've witnessed a few companies complying with that in extremely inventive ways and does it not also apply to small private concerns as well i.e independent hostels. Anyway I don't know, I'm raising the question rather than supplying an answer.

What I thought the articles illustrated was that 

1) Not all hostels are being closed on cost grounds, Derwentwater is profitable and could cover it's costs. This points to the fact that the YHA has a policy and an ethos but it's not in keeping with the ethos established when it was founded, hence accusations of losing it's way. 
2) The second link hinted that modernisation, centralised booking systems, professional management structures are still not enough to fill beds and the YHA is missing a trick in where and how it pitches itself i.e has lost touch with it's grass root users. Now I'm sure that they can nullify this by changing their user base or more precisely, widening it but in doing so they're neglecting the very demographic they were set up to serve. Again, accusations of losing their way.

I was thinking there must be parallels here with the CTC. On the face of it what they are doing sounds reasoned and plausible but it's a bit, trite & corporate in its thinking, or so I'm beginning to think.


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## andym (23 Jun 2011)

Crackle said:


> What I thought the articles illustrated was that
> 
> 1) Not all hostels are being closed on cost grounds, Derwentwater is profitable and could cover it's costs. This points to the fact that the YHA has a policy and an ethos but it's not in keeping with the ethos established when it was founded, hence accusations of losing it's way.
> 2) The second link hinted that modernisation, centralised booking systems, professional management structures are still not enough to fill beds and the YHA is missing a trick in where and how it pitches itself i.e has lost touch with it's grass root users. Now I'm sure that they can nullify this by changing their user base or more precisely, widening it but in doing so they're neglecting the very demographic they were set up to serve. Again, accusations of losing their way.



I've never had problems with the YHA booking system. It seems to work fine. The second link sounded like people grasping at straws.

The YHA is in a difficult situation and has serious decisions to make. I'm sur no one wants to lose Derwentwater, or other hostels, but the fundamental problem remains that the organisation needs to be able to survive financially. If you could pay the bills with waffle and nostalgia then maybe it would be a different story.


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## Danny (23 Jun 2011)

Crackle said:


> Yes, I take your point about costs of staff, I'm not sure you are 100% correct on the disability discrimination part, I've witnessed a few companies complying with that in extremely inventive ways and does it not also apply to small private concerns as well i.e independent hostels. Anyway I don't know, I'm raising the question rather than supplying an answer.


I believe that the YHA has taken a positive decision that it wants to comply with the spirit of the Disability Discrimination Act by providing properly accessible facilities such as disabled toilets, ramps, etc. Inventive ways if meeting the DDA can be be fine if they result in accessible facilities, but too often it just means finding inventive ways of getting round the legislation. In any case a small independent hostel is unlikely to be sued if it does not comply with the DDA, whereas there is a good chance that the YHA would have action taken against it.

I haven't had a problem with the central booking system either, but you can still phone up hostels directly if you prefer to book that way. And in this day and age having an on-line booking system is pretty much a pre-requisite for ensuring that the YHA continues to appeal to young people.


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## Danny (23 Jun 2011)

funnymummy said:


> #3 is now 7, so I have to book an entire family room for us, rather then him share a dorm bunk with me, one night in Cornwall last year cost less than £20, this year it would be £49


I agree this is a bit of a nonsense, and I can't see any logical reason why a 7 year old boy should not share a women's dorm. Clearly the hostel warden should be given some discretion over how the rules would apply in such situations.

Having said that I am not sure I would feel so comfortable about the thought of a 7 year old girl sharing a men's dorm, and I can see that it is difficult to come up with rules that apply to every situation.


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## albion (23 Jun 2011)

"We've been spending about £3m less than we should have been each year over the last 30 years" 

That really says it all when you consider that the swanky Matlock head office will cost far more than that to run. You also have to realise that many closures are 'cash raids' and thus cannot afford to be sold cheap to would be hostel owners.


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## Danny (24 Jun 2011)

albion said:


> "We've been spending about £3m less than we should have been each year over the last 30 years"
> 
> That really says it all when you consider that the swanky Matlock head office will cost far more than that to run. You also have to realise that many closures are 'cash raids' and thus cannot afford to be sold cheap to would be hostel owners.



I have not been to the Matlock offices, but they don't look particularly "swanky" on Google Street View. What would you like them to work out of, a semi-derelict run down building?


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## andym (24 Jun 2011)

For anyone who's interested here's the text ot the YHA's press release on its 'Capital Strategy'. Yes it is closing hostels that people would like to see stay opem, but it's also investing in a lot of other hostels and opening new ones. You may well disagree with some or all of the decisions but taliking about 'cash raids' is simply misreprepresenting the position:

There's also an onteresting article here:

http://www.ukhillwalking.com/news/item.php?id=60413

"08/02/2011

At their January meeting, the Board of Trustees agreed the following decisions on YHA’s Capital Strategy.

In the coming year YHA plans to invest more than £4 million in some of our best-loved Youth Hostels in England and Wales.

Investment will improve some of YHA’s most inspiring hostels including Black Sail in the Lake District and Woody’s Top in Lincolnshire. A major scheme to redevelop YHA Oxford Street in London and the opening of a new Youth Hostel at Berwick upon Tweed are also part of these exciting plans.

YHA is committed to have a network of Youth Hostels that meet the needs of our customers both now and in the future, one which will be financially sustainable, in which we can invest securely, and which is able to grow and support our charitable object.  These plans are a major step towards achieving that goal, which will see a capital investment of more than £30 million in the next five years.

Other sites that will be invested in this year are Wilderhope in Shropshire, Rowen in Conwy, Grinton Lodge in North Yorkshire, Salcombe in Devon, Poppit Sands in Pembrokeshire, Tintagel in Cornwall, and Wells-next-the-Sea in Norfolk.  This shows our commitment to the breath of our network spread across England and Wales

At the same time we have taken the difficult decision to announce the closure of eight Youth Hostels at the end of the 2011 season. 

YHA Derwentwater, YHA Helvellyn, YHA Hawkshead, YHA Osmotherley, YHA Salisbury, YHA Arundel, YHA Totland and YHA Newcastle will be affected by this decision.

Closing a Youth Hostel is never easy and YHA does understand the impact this decision will have, particularly for members and guests who enjoy close links and have strong loyalties with this particular hostel.  We are working closely with all of our staff who are affected by this decision.

By closing and selling hostels, YHA can release the capital value of these sites to pay for the future investments need elsewhere and to reduce the amount of money we need to borrow to meet our total investment needs."


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## dellzeqq (24 Jun 2011)

Danny said:


> I believe that the YHA has taken a positive decision that it wants to comply with the spirit of the Disability Discrimination Act by providing properly accessible facilities such as disabled toilets, ramps, etc. Inventive ways if meeting the DDA can be be fine if they result in accessible facilities, but too often it just means finding inventive ways of getting round the legislation. In any case a small independent hostel is unlikely to be sued if it does not comply with the DDA, whereas there is a good chance that the YHA would have action taken against it.


'inventive' ways to meet the obligations set out in the DDA could be something like having the warden help people in and around the building. The ramps we see rammed in and around buildings that can't take them represent a failure of imagination and a lack of trust in humanity. Every time I hear somebody say 'DDA compliance' I reach for my (oh, sorry, that's a P+L thread....)


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## Crackle (24 Jun 2011)

andym said:


> For anyone who's interested here's the text ot the YHA's press release on its 'Capital Strategy'. Yes it is closing hostels that people would like to see stay opem, but it's also investing in a lot of other hostels and opening new ones. You may well disagree with some or all of the decisions but taliking about 'cash raids' is simply misreprepresenting the position:
> 
> There's also an onteresting article here:
> 
> ...



I read that Andy, like I said it sounds reasonable. I guess it depends on whether you think their objectives are correct.

Here's the founding objective

_“To help all, especially young people of limited means, to a greater knowledge, love and care of the countryside, particularly by providing hostels or other simple accommodation for them in their travels, and thus to promote their health, rest and education.”

_and here's today's objective

_“To help all, especially young people of limited means, to a greater knowledge, love and care of the countryside, and appreciation of the cultural values of towns and cities, particularly by providing youth hostels or other accommodation for them in their travels, and thus to promote their health recreation and education.”

_I can't help thinking that the towns and cities bit is less about culture and more about bums in beds. If I want to visit a city I wouldn't think about using a hostel, besides which, these are about the most expensive hostels you can stay in. The old discount structure that the YHA used to have has also been largely scrapped.


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## Danny (24 Jun 2011)

There is practically no difference between the two statements of objectives apart from the addition of the words "_and appreciation of the cultural values of towns and cities". _

The YHA has had hostels in towns and cities for a long time, so it sounds to me that this is just a a case of making sure that the objectives fit with the reality of the network on the ground. 

In any case I can't see a good reason why there should not be hostels in town and cities, particular as many of these probably generate profits which are used to subsidise more remote rural hostels.


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## Danny (24 Jun 2011)

dellzeqq said:


> 'inventive' ways to meet the obligations set out in the DDA could be something like having the warden help people in and around the building. The ramps we see rammed in and around buildings that can't take them represent a failure of imagination and a lack of trust in humanity. Every time I hear somebody say 'DDA compliance' I reach for my (oh, sorry, that's a P+L thread....)



I agree that DDA compliance can involve much unimaginative box ticking (or ramp building) but I think the YHA is trying to go beyond that and ensure that its hostels can easily be used by disabled people. And this is likely to cost money whether it is achieved by physical adaptations or having enough staff to help people round buildings.

And one of the reasons I think the YHA was right to allow people to arrive by cars is that it meant that its hostels were opened up to use by the disabled.


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## hubbike (24 Jun 2011)

Crackle said:


> They've even sold hostels to private individuals who still run them as YHA hostels, there's something definetly wrong there.



or perhaps something definitely right. I think that is a very sensible policy, for the reasons I outlined above, i.e. that by taking ownership and responsibility you have more to gain/lose and put more effort/creativity/love into running the place. The YHA logo on the door stands for something, but there is plenty of room for manoeuvre inside that.


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## Crackle (24 Jun 2011)

Danny said:


> There is practically no difference between the two statements of objectives apart from the addition of the words "_and appreciation of the cultural values of towns and cities". _
> 
> The YHA has had hostels in towns and cities for a long time, so it sounds to me that this is just a a case of making sure that the objectives fit with the reality of the network on the ground.
> 
> In any case I can't see a good reason why there should not be hostels in town and cities, particular as many of these probably generate profits which are used to subsidise more remote rural hostels.




Support more remote ones, like Derwentwater, SKiddaw?

Anyway you're missing my point. No they haven't changed much but the bit about limited means seems to be further away from where they are heading. Perhaps if they put, especially young people of middle class backgrounds, it would be nearer the mark. Like I said the discount system has been overhauled to be virtually non-existent.

I don't object to their modernisation, change of rules and culture, it was overdue but the price of staying could not be considered within a budget of limited means and the loss of hostels is disappointing. I noticed it a few years ago when I wanted to plan a cycle tour with the kids. On the one hand, yippee, family rooms, gulp, pricey and then, oh no, we can't do that, the hostel isn't there anymore, or that, or that. 

Anyway this talk of hostelling has made me want to do some again. That must be good.


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## funnymummy (24 Jun 2011)

Danny said:


> I agree this is a bit of a nonsense, and I can't see any logical reason why a 7 year old boy should not share a women's dorm. Clearly the hostel warden should be given some discretion over how the rules would apply in such situations.
> 
> Having said that I am not sure I would feel so comfortable about the thought of a 7 year old girl sharing a men's dorm, and I can see that it is difficult to come up with rules that apply to every situation.



 I think that every situation should be weighed up on it's pro's & cons, if plenty of bunks are available then it seems silly to say you have to pay for a whole room.
We stayed in a local YH a short while back, it was busy, a family, a mixed sex groups of MTB'rs & a womans hiking club.
The only 'designated' family room had ben prebooked, so was told would have to use a dorm & pay the Family Room rate...as they couldn't allow my bubs to share a dorm, this was the only way to do it.
So I paid, the next morning chatting with other groups, discovered that the male MTB'rs had 3 spare bunks in their dorm, the girls had 4 spare bunks & the hikers, who had taken 2 dorms had 4 spare bunks in one of theirs...
I was a tad annoyed, if anyone had turned up without prior booking there would have been more then enough bunks to accommadate them, without the worry that my children would have to share with strangers - It just sort of felt that i'd been coerced into spending £54 instaed of £24... whcih would have effectively apid for an extra night


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## andym (24 Jun 2011)

Crackle said:


> I read that Andy, like I said it sounds reasonable. I guess it depends on whether you think their objectives are correct.
> 
> Here's the founding objective
> 
> ...



Hmm. As a cycle tourist and YHA member I appreciate the fact that the YHA has hostels in urban and rural areas. Apart from anything else, they are significantly cheaper than hotels (well yes I might just get a room in a Travelodge miles away).

And personally I think there is a real developmental benefit for young people in backpacking/interailing to major cities. Even if they never go near an art gallery they develop independence and self-reliance and have a bit of an adventure. 

The larger city hostels do generate income to support smaller remote hostels. OK Derwentwater and others are earmarked for sale - but look again at the list of hostels in which they are investing. Black Sail Pass for example is I believe (i don't know the Lakes) fairly remote.

As far as people/families with limited means and prices in general are concerned. I take it you probably aren't aware of the YHA's Breaks4kids programme ( www.Breaks4kids.co.uk) which pays 50 per cent of the cost of a hostel holiday - I must admit I wasn't aware of it until this thread prompted me to have a bit of a dig around YHA website. Their fundraising tarhet is £1 million - so if anyone has some cash to spare ...

And prices in general? I looked at the YHA website:

http://www.yha.org.uk/special-offers/south-summer-savings.aspx

Now before anyone shouts at me, I know these are deals available for breaks before July 22 - so before the school holidays - but there are some attractive locations. I tried a test booking at the Tintagel hostel at the end of the month £14.95 for and adult and £10.95 for an under-18. Now i know it's expensive having a family, but these seem to me to be prices that are pretty affordable.


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## Danny (24 Jun 2011)

andym said:


> And yes, the larger city hostels generate income to support smaller remote hostels. OK Derwentwater and others are earmarked for sale - but look again at the list of hostels in which they are investing. Black Sail Pass for example is I believe (i don't know the Lakes) fairly remote.


Black Sail is a good example. It is a wonderful 16 bed hostel, in a beautiful location which can only be reached on foot. I would be surprised if it even breaks even but the YHA are still investing in it.

Having said that I still think it is short sighted to close hostels like Derwentwater even if it does generate a lot of capital. I suspect many first timers are drawn to the YHA as a result of staying in some of the more presitgeous hostels like Derwentwater and then graduate on to the more remote ones.


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## Danny (24 Jun 2011)

funnymummy said:


> I think that every situation should be weighed up on it's pro's & cons, if plenty of bunks are available then it seems silly to say you have to pay for a whole room.
> We stayed in a local YH a short while back, it was busy, a family, a mixed sex groups of MTB'rs & a womans hiking club.
> The only 'designated' family room had been prebooked, so was told would have to use a dorm & pay the Family Room rate...as they couldn't allow my bubs to share a dorm, this was the only way to do it.
> So I paid, the next morning chatting with other groups, discovered that the male MTB'rs had 3 spare bunks in their dorm, the girls had 4 spare bunks & the hikers, who had taken 2 dorms had 4 spare bunks in one of theirs...
> I was a tad annoyed, if anyone had turned up without prior booking there would have been more then enough bunks to accommadate them, without the worry that my children would have to share with strangers - It just sort of felt that i'd been coerced into spending £54 instaed of £24... whcih would have effectively apid for an extra night



Part of the problem is that wardens no longer have as much local autonomy as they once did and can exercise very much discretion. The sensible thing to have done in your case would have been to charge you £24 initially, on the understand that you would pay the full £54 if they got a late rush on and had to turn people away. Maybe you can suggest that next time.


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## funnymummy (24 Jun 2011)

Danny said:


> Part of the problem is that wardens no longer have as much local autonomy as they once did and can exercise very much discretion. The sensible thing to have done in your case would have been to charge you £24 initially, on the understand that you would pay the full £54 if they got a late rush on and had to turn people away. Maybe you can suggest that next time.



I've bought a larger family tent, so prob won't use the YH again when with my bubs, unless of course there is a desperate need, days of rain - need to dry out LOL!
I'll happily use them them when solo, less than £15 for the night is fine, but Family Rates are way out of my budget, it would work more expensive to stay in a place that I have to vacate during daylight hours then it would to go abroad


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## Jezston (26 Jun 2011)

funnymummy said:


> less than £15 for the night is fine,



I don't think there are any YHAs that charge any where as little as that.


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## andym (26 Jun 2011)

Jezston said:


> I don't think there are any YHAs that charge any where as little as that.



Erm see my post above - about three posts earlier. Tintagel 30 june: £14.95 according to the online booking system. A number of others in the same promotion - go to the YHA website and have a look.


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## Crackle (26 Jun 2011)

Jezston said:


> I don't think there are any YHAs that charge any where as little as that.



That's not too bad all things considered. Dorm beds have not gone up so much, though it depends where you go but I remember it costing me £9 or £10 a night in 1993, so nearly 20 years later, it's gone up a fiver. The trouble is there are less dorm beds. Anyway, inspired by this thread I have planned a family week away in the Hebrides, not yet booked but soon will be. For the four of us a room is £80 to £70 a night. B&B equivalent would be £120ish a night and if I wanted dorm beds in the hostel (if available) I could save myself £20 a night. So say around £480 for 6 nights in our own room or £360 for dorms, as compared to a cottage for £700 in the same area. Camping would be £120ish, and the B&B £720 plus meals, so I guess it all depends what you are comparing it too.


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## MacT (31 Jul 2011)

Cush said:


> I have just tried to book in at a hostel on the Southwest coast for early September. On the availability page it showed that there was room for a single but on the hostel web page it said there was no availability. So I phoned HQ. I was told that there was a bed in a dorm for a female but not a male *BUT there is a double male room for £52 yes thats right £52. *Naturaly I declined. Does the YHA know that you can get rooms in Travelodge for as little as £20 and even the top prices are only £45 - £60 and this includes en-suite showers. I did get booked in to another hostel but it means a change of route. Another Hostel on the same trip is charging £22 but the next night I will be in at a reasonable quality B&B in a large city 60 miles away for £25. I think the YHA has lost it's way


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## MacT (31 Jul 2011)

[acronym='Scot']MacT[/acronym]


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## chrtho (2 Aug 2011)

Brandane said:


> Been there and done that, very recently. Carried my light-ish tent on the bike, along with the necessary sleeping bag, and self inflating thermarest mattress. So as light as possible, but still a hell of a difference when pulling it over a couple of days and 120 miles.
> 
> Then there was the camping experience. Put up tent while being attacked by midges. No entertainment for miles around (remote camp site) so early night. Uncomfortable sleep, until the sun came up about 4.30 am and that was end of sleep. Get up for a pee, and try to find a spot where I won't be seen (toilet block miles away). Watch condensation drip off roof of tent for a few hours, then get up. Queue up for awful shower. Take tent down while being attacked by midges again. Roll up soggy tent (condensation inside, dew outside) and pack it onto bike. Have greasy breakfast at site cafe, pay £6 for it. Pay site office £10 for my square of grass for the night. So £16 for "bed" and breakfast. A tenner more and I could have been in relative luxury.
> 
> NEVER; EVER, again!! (and that was without any bad weather).




Your mistake was staying on a campsite - wild camping is the only way to do it.


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## albion (3 Aug 2011)

YHA camping is pure luxury compared to anywhere else.


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## mcr (3 Aug 2011)

chrtho said:


> Your mistake was staying on a campsite - wild camping is the only way to do it.



I think it's more a case of not choosing a campsite carefully - there's enough info online these days to be able to pick out the ones that are more suited to your needs (if you can be a bit flexible in your routing and itinerary). For example, I'll always choose one within walking distance of a pub that does food, to save on carrying cooking gear. And the YH ones can be good value - all the facilities of a hostel with your own single room!


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## SimonV (31 Aug 2011)

There are plenty of campsites to choose from at www.campsitesandcaravanparks.com. Many include reviews and ratings so you can see what others think of the site before you book


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## Bluebell72 (31 Aug 2011)

Camping is horrific, especially after a day's cycling or walking.
That's when I want a hot shower, dry clothes and to get warm.

I haven't stayed in a YH for years (since school and then university) when there'd be at least 6 of us in a group, so I tend not to notice conditions etc so much then.

Happy memories of days at Black Sail YH though, just checked on the website and there are beds available for £16.40 next week. Baaargain!


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## Danny (3 Sep 2011)

Bluebell72 said:


> Camping is horrific, especially after a day's cycling or walking.
> That's when I want a hot shower, dry clothes and to get warm.
> 
> I haven't stayed in a YH for years (since school and then university) when there'd be at least 6 of us in a group, so I tend not to notice conditions etc so much then.
> ...



I still like camping, but there is a lot to be said for having a roof over your head after a long day's cycling, particularly if it is cold or wet outside.

Most YHA's offer a pretty good standard of accommodation these days, which is one of the reasons costs have gone up, and unlike many B&B owners are totally relaxed if you turn up with a bike and are all wet or muddy. 

Black Sail is still a delight to stay in, I'd heartily recommend it to anyone.


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