# motorised doping?!



## iLB (19 May 2010)

surely not... link


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## montage (19 May 2010)

I know at track races that bikes are weighed pre-race. Surely the same is done these races?


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## Chuffy (19 May 2010)

The kit (at least the legit version) weighs 1.9kg. Where the hell are you going to hide the battery? And everyone would be complicit, from the frame maker down to the team mechanics. Rider + dodgy doctor with the team management turning a blind eye makes sense, but mechanical cheating is on a whole different level.


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## rich p (19 May 2010)

I heard that Vino during his 2 year ban had prosthetic knees fitted with integral motors. 
I know it's true cos a fat bloke down the pub told me.


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## johnnyh (19 May 2010)

Chuffy said:


> Where the hell are you going to hide the battery?



the helmets are in fact solar panels!!!


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## Chuffy (21 May 2010)

Of course! Battery in bottle, contact on the side of the bottle and the bottle cage. So obvious.... We just need to find riders who complete the entire race with _the same bottle_...


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## psmiffy (21 May 2010)

At least there is some evidence it exists - but I still think that they should sue


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## Chuffy (21 May 2010)

Sue who?


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## psmiffy (21 May 2010)

Whoever it was that started this baseless rumour - although on reading the link in the OP I did have to check that I was in the right month and the date - then I went to bed


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## Chuffy (21 May 2010)

But who is going to sue this unknown person, and for what? Tell you what, how about all the riders throw a few quid into a cap and then sue Landis?


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## heliphil (21 May 2010)

Chuffy said:


> Where the hell are you going to hide the battery?


surely its not just me thats thought of the most obvious place.....


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## Chuffy (21 May 2010)

Right then, who has a big arse and is sitting uncomfortably?


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## heliphil (24 May 2010)

blunt and to the point Chuffy - but that's what I meant !!!!


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## gavintc (24 May 2010)

I must admit I did check the link for the date as I was convinced it was a recycled Apr 1 link. Remarkable and interesting all in one. So that is what is powering Basso to such a remarkable stage win.


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## kennykool (24 May 2010)

I want a bike that does this.


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## Noodley (24 May 2010)

Chuffy said:


> Right then, who has a big arse and is sitting uncomfortably?


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## raindog (31 May 2010)

this looks pretty convincing - watch right to the end

http://www.electricbikemag.net/showStory.php?storynum=14


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## montage (31 May 2010)

Has there been any official response to this?


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## Crankarm (1 Jun 2010)

A new bottom bracket that turns itself. Why has Shimano brought out Di2? It's a motor to turn the BB .


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## bobbyp (1 Jun 2010)

That video doesn't show where they thought the battery was. A battery that can produce over 400W for any useful amount of time is not going to be very easy to hide....


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## raindog (1 Jun 2010)

The battery fits in the seat tube above the motor.


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## raindog (1 Jun 2010)

montage said:


> Has there been any official response to this?


It's starting to be taken a bit more seriously now....
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/lefevere-takes-mechanical-doping-seriously


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## Flying_Monkey (1 Jun 2010)

I couldn't get that embedded video to work, but here's the original on YouTube. 


View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Nd13ARuvVE


The Cancellara footage and argument is quite convincing when you see the slowed-down sections, especially for the second race. It's the combination of acceleration without significant apparent change in effort with the wierd hand movements. The noise of the motor would not be able to be heard over the motorbikes and the crowds - and I notice that the accelerations both occured on very noisy sections.

Although it is still not much more than speculation, I am starting to get a bad feeling about this.


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## MacB (1 Jun 2010)

Flying_Monkey said:


> I couldn't get that embedded video to work, but here's the original on YouTube.
> 
> 
> View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Nd13ARuvVE
> ...




say it aint so, but I agree the second bit of footage looked remarkable. Just after he started to accelerate away they hit a bend with that sort of sttep inner curve. He rode that line effortlessly and continued to accelerate.


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## rich p (1 Jun 2010)

It seems too far fetched but maybe not. I remember spouting off down the pub after Flanders that Cancellara must be on something but I never expected it to be lithium batteries!


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## Crankarm (1 Jun 2010)

It's a spoof. The people who are pushing this obviously crazy scurrilous slander want to discredit Cancellara and publicity for their little labour saving device. Cue Cancellara's lawyers suing.


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## raindog (1 Jun 2010)

Watched it again this morning with a mate, and on the helicopter shot where he accelerates away from 3 or 4 riders it looks almost comical, as if he's on a moped or something. Don't see how this could ever be proved though. Would be interesting to look at the bike though to see if there are extra holes at the bottom of the seat tube where the drive shaft with the bevel gear might have been blocked. Got to be a way of checking surely? Probably too late now.


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## Flying_Monkey (1 Jun 2010)

raindog said:


> Probably too late now.



Yes, and no doubt if he did use some kind of device, he would never use it again now, because he'll be watched like a hawk. We may never know.


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## raindog (1 Jun 2010)

It's reached LePoint now - expect others, maybe even the English dailys to follow - we'll be the laughing stock......

http://www.lepoint.fr/actualites-so...ra-soupconne-de-dopage-mecanique/920/0/461600


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## Flying_Monkey (1 Jun 2010)

raindog said:


> It's reached LePoint now - expect others, maybe even the English dailys to follow - we'll be the laughing stock......
> 
> http://www.lepoint.fr/actualites-so...ra-soupconne-de-dopage-mecanique/920/0/461600



I'm just waiting for the first audio technician to isolate the sound of the little motor from the TV footage...


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## Crankarm (1 Jun 2010)

Why just have one motor in the seat tube when one could have another sealed in the down tube as well  .


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## maurice (1 Jun 2010)

Surprisingly that footage look more convincing than I was expecting!

Perhaps he's making sure he doesn't get beaten by Conti in the Tour de France TT's this time.


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## fossyant (3 Jun 2010)

Crazy...... Cancellara is the World TT Champion - he can ride at insane speed on his own...sheesh.

PS where can I get this system ?


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## johnnyh (3 Jun 2010)

hmmmmmmmmmm....


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## jpembroke (3 Jun 2010)

let's face it: this is b******s, isn't it?


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## MacB (3 Jun 2010)

jpembroke said:


> let's face it: this is b******s, isn't it?




that would be my gut reaction but it has an appeal to riders like me, ie the old, fat and slow 

If it's technologically feasible then it's been done, in a proper race though? no idea. But it is another way to provide that certain cyclist with that important boost at the right time.


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## jpembroke (3 Jun 2010)

If Spartacus cheated then there is nothing left. I will sell my road bike and go back to running.


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## raindog (4 Jun 2010)

The UCI have said there will be no investigation into the Cancellera affair and we will never know whether one of these bikes has been used to race with or not. But unlike the use of peds it's pretty easy to check if someone has a motor on their bike and a screening procedure has been put in place so I reckon the whole thing will now just fizzle out, and that's probably for the best.


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## gavintc (4 Jun 2010)

I am left deeply sceptical. On one side, I do not want to believe it and just hope that the top riders are not adding mechanical advantages. But, on the other hand I know what an attraction a win can be for some. We do not have medical doping for nothing. There are some very strong incentives out there. 

As raindog has suggested, it is easy to check for and apply (hopefully) simple scrutineering measures. But, a team doing this implicates the whole team; management, riders and mechanics. With medical doping a team can claim to be innocent and state it is simply a rogue rider.


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## Crankarm (4 Jun 2010)

Cancellara,


> "It's so stupid I'm speechless," he said



http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/cancellara-rubbishes-motorised-bike-claims-26393

It's frankly absurd. The people who've made this thing are desperate for publicity as perhaps they have spent a lot of money producing it and sales aren't going too well. Slandering, accusing Cancellara of cheating is really low. The video and audio footage they present could easily have been knocked up or doctored by them.


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## jpembroke (4 Jun 2010)

So, who's going to get some 'Spartacus is innocent' t-shirts printed then?

Steaming pile of ******g horse**** made up by a bunch of lazy ******g t***s.

That's what I reckon.


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## just jim (4 Jun 2010)

All that video demonstrates is that Cancellara can go like he's got a motor on it - neato!


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## leyton condor (4 Jun 2010)

Here it is as shown on Italian television.

http://it.eurosport.yahoo.com/03062010/45/tour-de-france-nuova-frontiera-doping-meccanico.html

I'm getting one for the Dunwich Dynamo


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## raindog (4 Jun 2010)

Just been on the phone with a mate who tells me there was a two page spread in l'Equipe yesterday. One suggestion was that there was no button on the bike, but the motor was controlled with a remote controll from the team car. We've been falling about laughing imagining the system being started up or stopped at the wrong moment.B)


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## bikepete (4 Jun 2010)

Crankarm said:


> Cancellara,
> 
> 
> http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/cancellara-rubbishes-motorised-bike-claims-26393
> ...



That seems to me an unfounded and possibly libellous insult to the people at Gruber Assist. Nobody is seriously suggesting that it is their actual kit being used - too noisy for a start. 

I've actually met them at the Eurobike trade shows and like most small cycling companies they're basically enthusiast engineering types. 

They are probably mortified that their concept has been linked to this episode.

If you are an unscrupulous business mogul ruthless enough to smear an athlete for PR you'd be working for a more lucrative business than one making obscure bike parts.


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## raindog (4 Jun 2010)

bikepete said:


> That seems to me an unfounded and possibly libellous insult to the people at Gruber Assist. Nobody is seriously suggesting that it is their actual kit being used - too noisy for a start.


+ 1
the video has nothing to do with Gruber - I believe it was put together by an Italian tv company and they used part of the Gruber publicity clip simply to show the technical aspect of how the system works.

Chris Boardman on the subject
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/boardman-warned-the-uci-of-risks-of-bike-doping


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## gavintc (4 Jun 2010)

raindog said:


> + 1
> the video has nothing to do with Gruber - I believe it was put together by an Italian tv company and they used part of the Gruber publicity clip simply to show the technical aspect of how the system works.
> 
> Chris Boardman on the subject
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/boardman-warned-the-uci-of-risks-of-bike-doping



The Boardman comment makes sense and I think an accurate comment on the potential risks.


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## mangaman (4 Jun 2010)

raindog said:


> + 1
> the video has nothing to do with Gruber - I believe it was put together by an Italian tv company and they used part of the Gruber publicity clip simply to show the technical aspect of how the system works.
> 
> Chris Boardman on the subject
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/boardman-warned-the-uci-of-risks-of-bike-doping



Interesting link raindog - thanks.

Here's a quote from it (from Boardman)

"I sat at a meeting with the UCI last year and drew on the blackboard exactly how this might work," Boardman told the _Telegraph_. "I showed them some of the sophisticated boosting technology now available, mainly from F1 teams, that can get a kilowatt out of a single AAA battery."

"And don't forget electrically operated gears are legal these days so there is already a power source on many bikes. I think it would be fair to say there was a stunned silence after I said my piece."

Typically there was also no action taken by the UCI to prevent it.

clearly the technology is there and, I'm afraid, if there's one directeur sportif who I'd guess may give it a try it would be Riis.

Witness his enthousiastic embracing of EPO when that was the new thing


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## Ball (4 Jun 2010)

jpembroke said:


> If Spartacus cheated then there is nothing left. I will sell my road bike and go back to running.



I agree wholeheartedly. I'll not even sell my bike, I'll scrap it.


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## MacB (4 Jun 2010)

Ball said:


> I agree wholeheartedly. I'll not even sell my bike, I'll scrap it.



I'm safe in the knowledge that, even with motorised assistance, i'd still not be good enough


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## Flying_Monkey (4 Jun 2010)

I'm not sure why nefarious practices in professional sport would make anyone here want to give up cycling. 

And to those who think this couldn't be happening because too many people would have to know - well, this is exactly how doping used to be organised. And Bjarne Riis should know better than anyone...


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## Ball (4 Jun 2010)

Because he is an idol, someone who made me want to take up cycling in the first place and made me believe that ridiculous things really are possible on two wheels. 

As they keep saying these days, professional athletes are ambassadors for their sport and this, as well as doping, would just bring too too much shame on the sport, and bring into serious doubt anything done on a bicycle in the last few years. 

I wouldn't actually scrap my bike though, I've spent far too much money on it, and well, I like riding it too much.


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## mangaman (4 Jun 2010)

Flying_Monkey said:


> I'm not sure why nefarious practices in professional sport would make anyone here want to give up cycling.
> 
> And to those who think this couldn't be happening because too many people would have to know - well, this is exactly how doping used to be organised. And Bjarne Riis should know better than anyone...



I couldn't agree more FM.

In fact your video and raindog's Chris Boardman link make me think it's inevitable.

I'm not saying it's inevitable Cancellara was cheating, but it's inevitable someone will if, as Boardman says, it's undetectable unless you X-Ray the bikes, someone will use it.

Like you say - and based on past form - Riis has always looked to "gain an advantage".

Why are people so shocked Cancellara may not be 100% clean??

The way he rode the cobbled classics was, to the naked eye, a bit unusual shall we say. He's not Superman. He just accelerated away from Boonen without even getting out of the sadle and left him for dead in seconds.


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## jpembroke (4 Jun 2010)

I'm just kidding. I'm way to narcissistic to get rid of my road bike. I look great on it. Why, I look great on a tricycle. And it doesn't even have a motor.


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## Crankarm (4 Jun 2010)

Crankarm said:


> Cancellara,
> 
> 
> http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/cancellara-rubbishes-motorised-bike-claims-26393
> ...






bikepete said:


> That seems to me an unfounded and possibly libellous insult to the people at Gruber Assist.



Got any evidence?



bikepete said:


> Nobody is seriously suggesting that it is their actual kit being used - too noisy for a start.



Well people are suggesting that some motor has been used to provide assistance to Cancellara. 


bikepete said:


> I've actually met them at the Eurobike trade shows and like most small cycling companies they're basically enthusiast engineering types.



Very enthusiastic by the looks of it.



bikepete said:


> They are probably mortified that their concept has been linked to this episode.



Surely if they felt that they were being defamed they would request Youtube or seek an injuction to have the footage taken down or sue the Italian TV company for defamation. But I get the impression they want the publicity for their motor.




bikepete said:


> If you are an unscrupulous business mogul ruthless enough to smear an athlete for PR you'd be working for a more lucrative business than one making obscure bike parts.



I am not an unscrupulous business mogul and I don't share your view that the motorised assistance device would fall into the category of an obscure bike part. In fact I should imagine there may well be quite a large market for something like this.


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## mangaman (4 Jun 2010)

Crankarm said:


> Got any evidence?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think the company being libelled is a bit OTT. They're a small company and can only benefit from free publicity from RAI.

Have you read the link to Chrid Boardmsn's take on it though Cranky - posted by raindog.

The technology is already out there and according to Boardman impossible to detect without X-Raying the bikes (presumably at the start and end).

Cyclists have cheated like mad since the 1st cycle race. Any new possibility of cheating would be looked at closely by any number of DS's if history teaches us anything


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## bikepete (4 Jun 2010)

Crankarm said:


> Got any evidence?



Er, yes. Your posting, which, referring to the manufacturer in question (Gruber Assist) said "Slandering, accusing Cancellara of cheating is really low." As it's in written form that's potentially libellous. 

And what is your evidence for this accusation?



> Well people are suggesting that some motor has been used to provide assistance to Cancellara.



Yes, so they are. If you want to make an 'invisible' system it's a layout that makes sense. 



> Very enthusiastic by the looks of it.



And your evidence that Gruber are in any way whatsoever actively involved in this matter is? 



> Surely if they felt that they were being defamed they would request Youtube or seek an injuction to have the footage taken down or sue the Italian TV company for defamation. But I get the impression they want the publicity for their motor.



The only person defaming them (AFAIK) is you in your posting and I very much doubt they even know you or this website exists. 

The video etc. uses their footage as a handy illustration of the concept, no more. Everyone else seems to understand this. You are the only one accusing them of being behind this as a cynical publicity ploy.



> I am not an unscrupulous business mogul



Never suggested you were. I was suggesting that the people who choose to work in small bicycle parts companies don't generally indulge in this sort of thing. Business moguls work where there's more money (betting on cycle races, perhaps). Not selling bikes. 



> and I don't share your view that the motorised assistance device would fall into the category of an obscure bike part.



Had you even heard of Gruber Assist before this story broke, then? 



> In fact I should imagine there may well be quite a large market for something like this.



In your last post you suggested that the reason for them to engage in the alleged skullduggery was because it wasn't selling well. You can't have it both ways.... as it happens the electric bike market in Germany is doing quite well, and they seem to be doing OK too - a few years ago they just did a single bike, now there's a whole range. 

I can quite understand a bit of cynicism and enjoy a conspiracy theory as much as anyone but suggesting that Gruber launched this whole affair as a viral is just insulting and unfair to what I believe is a decent small company. 

Do you have any evidence otherwise to back up your insinuations?


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## TheDoctor (4 Jun 2010)

mangaman said:


> Interesting link raindog - thanks.
> 
> Here's a quote from it (from Boardman)
> 
> ...



Sorry, but that is flat-out impossible. Getting a kilowatt from a single AAA battery would mean pulling 667 amps, which it won't supply even to a dead short. I don't care what kind of tech you throw at it, you're not going to hide enough batteries in a bike frame to provide a useful, sustained power boost. And the bike will weigh a tonne. Hells teeth, the best e-bike I've seen won't get you more than 20 miles at 15 mph, and that's with a dirty great stack of Li-ion cells in a big box weighing a good few kilos.
I don't believe the technology is there. Not even close. If it was, they'd be using it in electric cars, not fart-arseing about cheating in bike races.


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## raindog (5 Jun 2010)

TheDoctor said:


> I don't care what kind of tech you throw at it, you're not going to hide enough batteries in a bike frame to provide a useful, sustained power boost. And the bike will weigh a tonne.


The batteries fit in the seat tube above the motor and it's not made for "sustained" use - just a short burst in a certain place. The bike, or bikes, exist, and it doesn't weigh a ton, the additional weight is about two kilos. Pro bikes at the moment are so light they have to add ballast to them to get them up to the official minimum weight, and one or two kilos extra would simply make the bike a bit heavier than the usual current pro race bike, They're talking about 9 kilos or thereabouts. Have you watched the video where they demonstrate the modified race bike? Does anyone look at the links people provide?


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## TheDoctor (5 Jun 2010)

Yes, I have.
I'd like to know how anyone can stuff a usable number of batteries into the seat tube that's already full of a 22cm long motor.


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## Flying_Monkey (5 Jun 2010)

TheDoctor said:


> Yes, I have.
> I'd like to know how anyone can stuff a usable number of batteries into the seat tube that's already full of a 22cm long motor.



Um, the whole frame is a series of hollow tubes... and I don't think there's any question that this isn't _possible_, the question is just whether a team (or a particular rider's support structure within a team) would have been able to do this in practice yet... and without anyone outside noticing until now. Whatever is the case, it pays the UCI to take action whether it's happening or whether it's a potential problem.


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## TheDoctor (5 Jun 2010)

Yes, FM, I am aware of that.The seat tube is the only one you can gain access to to get the batteries in and out, and to access them for charging.


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## Crankarm (5 Jun 2010)

bikepete said:


> Er, yes. Your posting, which, referring to the manufacturer in question (Gruber Assist) said "Slandering, accusing Cancellara of cheating is really low." As it's in written form that's potentially libellous.
> 
> And what is your evidence for this accusation?
> 
> ...



You need to get off your high horse, go back and read my posts as I have not mentioned the company's name or their exact model or that it is them actually doing the slandering.

If anyone has libelled anyone in this thread it is you . I think you are riding Mr T Roll .


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## mangaman (5 Jun 2010)

TheDoctor said:


> Sorry, but that is flat-out impossible. Getting a kilowatt from a single AAA battery would mean pulling 667 amps, which it won't supply even to a dead short. I don't care what kind of tech you throw at it, you're not going to hide enough batteries in a bike frame to provide a useful, sustained power boost. And the bike will weigh a tonne. Hells teeth, the best e-bike I've seen won't get you more than 20 miles at 15 mph, and that's with a dirty great stack of Li-ion cells in a big box weighing a good few kilos.
> I don't believe the technology is there. Not even close. If it was, they'd be using it in electric cars, not fart-arseing about cheating in bike races.



Sorry Doc, I was just quoting Boardman's evidence to the UCI.

He not only knows more than you or I about bike design, but has clearly been asked specifically to present the situation about motorised doping a year ago.

As raindog says, the bikes come in underweight easily already. I suppose ( no disrespect ) I believe Chris Boardman rather than you - as he clearly has the cutting edge info at his fingertips.

I love the image of the UCI bigwigs sitting around while Chris draws the basics on a whiteboard that leaves them speechless.

The UCI are consistently behind other organisations on doping - ditto with this as far as I can see (unless you think Boardman is not telling the truth - but why wouldn't he?)


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## Crankarm (6 Jun 2010)

mangaman said:


> Sorry Doc, I was just quoting Boardman's evidence to the UCI.
> 
> He not only knows more than you or I about bike design, but has clearly been asked specifically to present the situation about motorised doping a year ago.
> 
> ...



Now if only he can sell a few of his bikes with these motors .........


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## Chuffy (6 Jun 2010)

TheDoctor said:


> Yes, FM, I am aware of that.The seat tube is the only one you can gain access to to get the batteries in and out, and to access them for charging.


Hey Doc, when are you going to play your "actually, I _am_ a rocket scientist" card? 

If Mr Boardman is referring to current F1 tech then I'd like to see a little more evidence from him. I'm assuming he isn't talking cobblers (sensible chap, knows his stuff) but even so. As for the tech being of more benefit to the pedelec community, well yes but dear old push bikes are never going to be at the cutting edge and there is a long history of F1 style tech taking a long time to filter down to the mass market. I still have a boring old gear stick in my car, for example, and those whizzy steering wheel mounted shifters (STI for cars?) that F1 has been using for what, a decade, still only appear on things like Ferrari road cars.

It looks do-able but I can't see how without the connivance of the entire team _and_ some of the kit sponsors and I just don't see that being likely.


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## fossyant (6 Jun 2010)

Did no-one mention, the motor is run on a Nano Nuclear Reactor ? Shimano's Di3 ?


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## Chuffy (7 Jun 2010)

Bit slow here, but on watching the video it did occur to me that both races are on cobbles. Is it not possible that all he's doing is flexing his fingers a bit before making a move? Poker players are supposed to have a 'tell', a distinct physical giveaway that reveals their mental state. If I was on the front of the pack with Spartacus I'd be watching his ring finger at crucial points in the race.


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## Crankarm (8 Jun 2010)

fossyant said:


> Did no-one mention, the motor is run on a *Nano Nuclear Reactor* ? Shimano's Di3 ?



 .


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## TheDoctor (8 Jun 2010)

Chuffy said:


> Hey Doc, when are you going to play your "actually, I _am_ a rocket scientist" card?
> 
> If Mr Boardman is referring to current F1 tech then I'd like to see a little more evidence from him. I'm assuming he isn't talking cobblers (sensible chap, knows his stuff) but even so. As for the tech being of more benefit to the pedelec community, well yes but dear old push bikes are never going to be at the cutting edge and there is a long history of F1 style tech taking a long time to filter down to the mass market. I still have a boring old gear stick in my car, for example, and those *whizzy steering wheel mounted shifters (STI for cars?) that F1 has been using for what, a decade, still only appear on things like Ferrari road cars.*
> 
> It looks do-able but I can't see how without the connivance of the entire team _and_ some of the kit sponsors and I just don't see that being likely.



Many VW group cars can be specced with the DSG twin-clutch gearbox and flappy paddle shifters. It's getting a bit more mass-market.


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## yello (8 Jun 2010)

Chuffy said:


> Is it not possible that all he's doing is flexing his fingers a bit before making a move?



My thoughts exactly. Well, not exactly but near as dammit! With it being on cobbles, maybe he's just trying to relieve some ache/pain/numbness in his fingers. There's any number of reasons he could be making that movement with his hand. It may just be as simple as 'that is what he does sometimes'.


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## potsy (8 Jun 2010)

I had flappy paddle gear change on my Citroen C2 6 years ago,it was fine for a few months as a novelty but it annoyed me after a while so I got rid.


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## Foghat (11 Jun 2010)

Oh dear. Those videos, if not faked as claimed by Riis (and it will be very easy for someone to check the original footage), are compelling evidence indeed. Which is very disappointing as Cancellara always came across as an honourable sort, and he is a consummate rouleur, physically.

So assuming the video is not faked, the most compelling evidence is the acceleration viewed from the helicopter in Paris Roubaix. I remember seeing that at the time and thinking "Jesus, how can he do that", but it was on a grainy feed on the laptop and I couldn't re-watch it to examine closely, and it all happened very quickly of course (not that I suspected then that he was motorised).

Anyway, that acceleration, and similarly the one in Flanders, is just unnatural. No rider is strong enough to make such incredible progress over other riders already going that fast without getting out of the saddle and sprinting - he is that fast. The other riders weren't exactly dawdling, as you can see they were already moving away from the rest of their group who did seem to have let up slightly. Not only does he rocket away without getting out of the saddle, there is literally NO perceivable increase in effort from him - not even a slight extra crouch or tightened grip on the bars or adjustment of pedalling action or extra tensing of leg muscles; it is utterly effortless compared to what he is already doing AND he turns it on instantaneously AND he's able to turn round to see the reaction in the middle of doing this incredible acceleration.

That's all before we even get to the handlebar-shift-lever hi-jinks. The suggestion that these movements are just finger-stretching and stress relief before making an effort seems very unlikely to me, having raced myself and watched a lot of professional racing closely too. On straight sections of cobbles, you really want to be keeping your hands on the centre of the bars as much as possible, and relieving stress in the hands or stretching your fingers would be more easly achieved by pressing them against your leg or pressing your finger tips against the bars - not by repeated very precise movements to an exact point on the brake/shift lever. This should be another easy one to solve - by looking at past footage of him when he wasn't pulling off such stunning manoeuvres and searching for similar stress relieving actions - but I doubt if there are any similar episodes.

As FM says, the noise of the motorbikes and crowd will obscure the sound of the motor - but of course there is also the helicopter roaring overhead too, so no difficulty hiding the sound. What the motor designers/installers and Cancellara haven't got right is building a more natural-looking progressive action into the motor's activation. Having now had the opportunity to re-watch and scrutinise it, that Paris-Roubaix footage is almost comical, just as raindog says. But as pointed out, it's been rumbled now so hopefully the UCI will be vigilant enough to stamp it out entirely. If we see similar outstandingly effortless super-accelerations from Cancellara from now on, against people like an in-form Boonen (!), then we'll have to take it all back, but somehow I doubt very much that we will.

Then there's the odd denial. If one's reputation as an honourable rider and one's strength/supremacy were being traduced this way, surely most honourable people would be making vehement claims about how performimg clean and unaided is a matter of honour for them and that they swear on their children's/mother's/etc life that they are clean, and "please come and inspect my bikes/fridge/tour bus/mechanics' HQ/hotel room etc etc as it's really important to me that you see I am innocent". But they never do.......


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## mangaman (11 Jun 2010)

Foghat said:


> Oh dear. Those videos, if not faked as claimed by Riis (and it will be very easy for someone to check the original footage), are compelling evidence indeed. Which is very disappointing as Cancellara always came across as an honourable sort, and he is a consummate rouleur, physically.
> 
> So assuming the video is not faked, the most compelling evidence is the acceleration viewed from the helicopter in Paris Roubaix. I remember seeing that at the time and thinking "Jesus, how can he do that", but it was on a grainy feed on the laptop and I couldn't re-watch it to examine closely, and it all happened very quickly of course (not that I suspected then that he was motorised).
> 
> Anyway, that acceleration, and similarly the one in Flanders, is just unnatural. No rider is strong enough to make such incredible progress over other riders without getting out of the saddle and sprinting - it is that fast.



I agree, except I've never bought into Cancellara being an honourablr sort. I've always thought his performances were very suspicious.

What is that based on?

He is always far stronger than one would expect - before the motorised doping rumours came, I thought it was unusual the way he rode away from Boonen as if he were a schoolgirl on a kid's bike.

Cancellera rides for onr of the dodgiest teams - with a self confessed cheat as Directeur sportive - and seems a little bit too good to be true IMHO


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## Foghat (11 Jun 2010)

It's based on rather limited evidence really, and was just my general perception which could well have been, and appears to be, wrong. I.e the way he conducts himself, his general demeanour etc - but to be honest, I don't follow racing as much as I did in the 80s and 90s, so am not really in a position to know about this side of him. 

Plus you can tell that physically he is almost the perfect rouleur, and ideally designed for these Classics and descending and time-trialling - he oozes natural power, smoothness and strength on a bike, and I think any observant person who has raced can see that he has extraordinary inherent class.

Which makes it all the more disappointing, as he should be satisfied with his natural ultra-high calibre and fight on fair terms.


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## raindog (12 Jun 2010)

I was never suspicious of Cancellara's TT rides - as Foghat says, he has the perfect build for TTing, but to suddenly win two spring classics against specialists stinks a bit imo.
Something which seems to have been ignored was reported in l'Equipe, that Riis used a remote control to start the motor. Sounds like something out of science fiction, but it's been confirmed by some "Danish officials" who insisted on anonymity - make of that what you will. 
Also, the mechanics hurried the bike onto the bus and pushed press photographers away when they tried to photograph it.
Anyroad, the uci in their wisdom have said there will be no enquiry so we can speculate untill the cows come home but I doubt we'll ever know the truth.


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## yello (12 Jun 2010)

raindog said:


> Also, the mechanics hurried the bike onto the bus and pushed press photographers away when they tried to photograph it.



Did they? I haven't heard that before (not that I am at all widely read on this subject, having pretty much dismissed it as a hoax from the beginning).

That's quite a conspiracy theory growing though. Someone must spill the beans (if they are there to spill) eventually.


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## Chuffy (15 Jun 2010)

Apparently there's a Hungarian guy who has come up with a frame-fit motor which "could weigh up to one kilogramme, generate peak power of 600 watts and last 30 to 60 minutes on each battery charge." Sounds impressive but I'd like to see it before I believe it!


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