# TdF Stage 14 SPOILER



## yello (18 Jul 2009)

Well, better late than never....

What looked like a sprinters stage is confused by a breakaway containing a member of just about every sprinters team.... including one George Hincapie.

So this makes matters rather intriguing. Will Columbia chase down one of their senior members? Will team Armstrong/Astana let them? Has a deal been done? I bet there is/was a very interesting discussion in the Columbia team car.

It puts George H in yellow. But will Cavendish get green back?

Oh, French commentators say Cavendish was furious yesterday evening. I bet he was!


----------



## rich p (18 Jul 2009)

George just went back to the team car and rode of shaking his head. Dunno wot that's all about.


----------



## yello (18 Jul 2009)

It could be an opportunity for other GC riders teams to try something, just to see what the reaction of Astana/Columbia is. Fat chance of that though! I reckon everyone's riding in awe and waiting for others mistakes!


----------



## stoatsngroats (18 Jul 2009)

Is Roache in the lead group ready to have a go for a win....?


----------



## rich p (18 Jul 2009)

Take a chance? Ha!

Let's hope it all chnges up a gear in the Alps!


----------



## rich p (18 Jul 2009)

stoatsngroats said:


> Is Roache in the lead group ready to have a go for a win....?



I think the whole lead group would like to win the stage!


----------



## Will1985 (18 Jul 2009)

It's going to be close for yellow. AG2R probably can't pull it under 5 mins on their own and I think Astana won't make a huge effort on the front.

Columbia to start the train from a few km out to get Cav as many points as possible?


----------



## yello (18 Jul 2009)

Will1985 said:


> Columbia to start the train from a few km out to get Cav as many points as possible?



I can't see that they have any alternative. Not many points to get past 12th, especially as Hushvold will not be far behind, but every little helps. MAY be enough to take back green.


----------



## Will1985 (18 Jul 2009)

It's not going to happen for big George - Ivanov's escape has broken the momentum.


----------



## stoatsngroats (18 Jul 2009)

Oh dear George......come on!


----------



## stoatsngroats (18 Jul 2009)

It does look like a great final week, with a good number of contenders.....!


----------



## Will1985 (18 Jul 2009)

Hincapie needs the pack to cross the line 5:41 behind Ivanov. It's going to be by seconds!


----------



## stoatsngroats (18 Jul 2009)

5.36


----------



## Will1985 (18 Jul 2009)

No idea why Silence Lotto are on the front...


----------



## Will1985 (18 Jul 2009)

Looks like Hushovd pipped Cav?


----------



## rich p (18 Jul 2009)

Will1985 said:


> Looks like Hushovd pipped Cav?



not quite!


----------



## yello (18 Jul 2009)

Cav looking the wrong side though?


----------



## Will1985 (18 Jul 2009)

Bad news - Cav has been stripped of his finishing points at the moment. It looks like he held his line...he wouldn't have been able to move much further left without bashing his teammate anyway.

With an 18pt deficit it looks like the green jersey is wrapped up for Hushovd unless he crashes. There is no way Cav could hold it in a breakaway and get the necessary intermediate points.


----------



## yello (18 Jul 2009)

Whilst I've not heard that yet it seems to be reflected in the points table shown.

I've seen FAR scrappier/worse finishes than that, not quite sure what Cavendish did that was wrong. I've seen worse from McEwan at any rate!


----------



## dellzeqq (18 Jul 2009)

certainly not a patch on Sean Kelly's 'incident dubieuse' (sp?) which saw his rival hit fence and go about fifteen feet in the air. Then again, Cav has hardly been trowelling on the charm, has he? Perhaps the lesson for next time is to be nicer to the locals.


----------



## marinyork (18 Jul 2009)

That's a shame, would have been a good battle till next Sunday.


----------



## yello (18 Jul 2009)

dellzeqq said:


> Perhaps the lesson for next time is to be nicer to the locals.



I hope you're not implying there's a link!


----------



## dellzeqq (18 Jul 2009)

yello said:


> I hope you're not implying there's a link!


pas du tout!


----------



## Young Un (18 Jul 2009)

I have just watch the ITV4 highlights and they showed a great shot of the sprint finish from the helicopter camera, which clearly shows that Cavendish did hold his line, and that it was the road narrowing that caused Hushovd to almost hit the barriers. Cav shouldn't have been striped of his points in my opinion. The commisaire aswell has said that he will not accept any appeals from Columbia as his decision was final, which, for me, made me want to stand up and punch the guy in the face. Cav must be very pissed off right now!


----------



## HLaB (18 Jul 2009)

He'll be throwing his toys out of his pram, again ;-)


----------



## Young Un (18 Jul 2009)

Rightly so today though


----------



## Bigtwin (18 Jul 2009)

it really did seem from the overhead shot that Cav didn't move laterally at all.

I have a feeling that something will be done overnight on this one - it certainly should be.


----------



## Steve Austin (18 Jul 2009)

The head on view looks like Cav saw Thor and then drifted into his line tbh

But what was Cav doing? looking left then right. Since when did anyone sprinting for the win (or points) start looking left and right to see who is coming?!!!
He messed up


----------



## montage (18 Jul 2009)

I am dissappointed in Cav.

He should be walking all over the other sprinters....and should have no problem holding onto green at all... he is by far the best sprinter out there.

Pull your finger out cav


----------



## buggi (18 Jul 2009)

i think basically Cav just sat back at the end, he didn't try to sprint and although i don't think he "drifted" into Hushovd's line, he certainly didn't help by just sitting there looking around, and kind of held him back. To be honest, i don't like Cav's attitude, he's a brilliant sprinter but my god does he know it and with a cocky attitute like that he's only gonna piss off other riders. he needed this to bring him back down to earth a little. 

can someone please tell me why Hincapie was slagging off Astana to the camera's after. he implied it was their fault he didn't get the jersey and gave the "if that's the way they wanna play it" remarks. why is this? what tacticis were Astana employing to stop him getting the yellow?


----------



## accountantpete (18 Jul 2009)

Steve Austin said:


> The head on view looks like Cav saw Thor and then drifted into his line tbh
> 
> But what was Cav doing? looking left then right. Since when did anyone sprinting for the win (or points) start looking left and right to see who is coming?!!!
> He messed up



He was trying to win the sprint by going as slow as possible - for his team mates benefit.Which is a great credit to Cav.


----------



## montage (18 Jul 2009)

I guess he reckons Astana had lifted the pace too much to chase him down....

.....but it didn't look that way to me....maybe he had talked with Armstrong beforehand and wanted Astana to keep the pace slow...


----------



## Paul_L (18 Jul 2009)

yeah i didn't get the Hincapie rant at Astana! Did he really expect Bruyneel / Armstrong / Bertie to strike a deal whereby they would let the chase go without a fight.

And Cav has been shat on from a great height. The aerial shot makes it clear he didn't push Thor into the barrier, the barriers filtered into the road.

I hope they overturn the decision, otherwise the green jersey comp is over.


----------



## marinyork (18 Jul 2009)

Just heard what Thor said on Eurosport. Thought this had been some kind of ruling not deliberate fiddling from him and his team. You don't brag on tv about making a complaint and getting points taken off someone, what a jerk. Not impressed.


----------



## buggi (18 Jul 2009)

so does this mean that the french will end up hating Cav as much as they hate Armstrong?

i can see that Cav is a brill sprinter but i heard he threw his toys out the pram yesterday (i missed that one) and i don't think he has endeared himself to the other riders. 

you can be brilliant and keep your feet on the ground at the same time. he just seems so much more ego that someone like Wiggins and it can rub people up the wrong way, but maybe its a age thing.. he is still a young'un


----------



## Flying_Monkey (19 Jul 2009)

On this occasion, I don't think this reflects well on Hushovd. Basically he has been reduced to trying to get Cav disqualified to beat him. I couldn't see much wrong with that from the overhead view (the front-on view is deceptive).


----------



## alecstilleyedye (19 Jul 2009)

i can see how hushovd can think he was squeezed, but the overhead footage clearly shows that it's the road that changes, not cav's line.


----------



## DanRVV2006 (19 Jul 2009)

the cav situation is a tricky one! he is clearly looking left and right to locate where thor is! he may have altered his line slightly if not very little, and i agree the barriers moved more than cav buttt and this is the thing.......CAV knew full well Thor was coming up the inside of him as he had just looked straight at him, and with the road conditions changing Cav should hav allowed room for movement for Thor knowing full well he was going to get squeezed, in my opinion Cav should hav gave a little more room knowing full well Thor was coming up the inside as this could have resulted in a big spill for both of them and others!


----------



## Skip Madness (19 Jul 2009)

Flying_Monkey said:


> On this occasion, I don't think this reflects well on Hushovd. Basically he has been reduced to trying to get Cav disqualified to beat him. I couldn't see much wrong with that from the overhead view (the front-on view is deceptive).


I agree. Normally I might dismiss it as him being a bit of a diva in the heat of the moment, but I have lost a lot of respect for him over this combined with his tantrum at Peter Velits yesterday.


----------



## Flying_Monkey (19 Jul 2009)

Skip Madness said:


> I agree. Normally I might dismiss it as him being a bit of a diva in the heat of the moment, but I have lost a lot of respect for him over this combined with his tantrum at Peter Velits yesterday.



It's a shame, as Thor has been one mu favourite riders for some time...


----------



## yello (19 Jul 2009)

buggi said:


> so does this mean that the french will end up hating Cav as much as they hate Armstrong?



head ---> wall, head ---> wall

Oh, btw, the race commissioner sounded Dutch to me.

Personally, I do think Cavendish does take Hushovd's line... I didn't think that was a problem though and happens all the time. I didn't think it pushes him towards the barriers though, I just thought it left him nowhere to go. But I'm going to see if I can look at footage again.

I find the Hincapie rant for more interesting. Was he having a go at Astana.... or Garmin?

Astana/Columbia had done a deal to put Hincapie in yellow, Astana to ride a "moderate" pace to not chase down the breakaway but give Hincapie a lead in the GC of less that 2 minutes. However, AG2R decided to defend and Garmin helped. The latter has pissed off Bruyneel, who sees is a revenge action against Columbia and has branded it bullshit/idiocy (depending on how you want to translate 'conneries'!). Aw shucks... that's racing Johan, you can't control everything!

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/fuse-lit-once-again-in-columbias-rivalry-with-garmin

http://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme/breves2009/20090718_191757_hincapie-et-astana-rient-jaune.html

Amusing quote from Columbia's Bob Stapleton from the first link, talking of Hincapie...



> He’s the most liked cyclist in America and the second most known," Stapleton said



I do like the distinction! 

(Aside: so Garmin have got to let someone take yellow because he's a senior figure and the US's favourite cyclist? How weird do these deals get?)


----------



## dellzeqq (19 Jul 2009)

yello said:


> http://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme/breves2009/20090718_191757_hincapie-et-astana-rient-jaune.html


my french is near to nothing but 'bout de souffle'!!!??? Lumme! All it needs is a concerto for clarinet!

Garmin joining the chase was, in pure racing terms, perverse. There had to be some backstory.


----------



## zacklaws (19 Jul 2009)

I'd like to see it again too when I get the time, it will be on the ITV website as every stage is for about 20 days.

But having seen it about three times, and I may be wrong, but looked at in a different light, Cav remains in formation with all the other riders to his left and not moving away from them to his right as you would see a bigger gap appear to his left and the other riders, but off top of my head, it does not happen, which clearly shows he did hold his line and the barrier does come inwards.

But there again it can be argued that his line should also have moved outwards in relation to the barrier, and also having read many times how he studies the end part of a course meticulously and also gets briefed up by his people at the end, maybe he knew before he got there that the barriers came in and would help him by following a certain line that anyone coming up the inside to the right would fall into a trap and be caught out.

Don't I talk crap. (Am I allowed to use that word on a Sunday?)


----------



## Bigtwin (19 Jul 2009)

I think it's for TH to deal with the lay out of the road at the end of the stage, not for Cav to actively assist him by moving over; of course he can't deliberately impede, but I can't see that he did. TH was in a bad position with the road narrowing, and that's what caused the problem.

Nor come to that does Cav have to bust a gut to spring for the line.

So all-in-all, TH essentially just got himself boxed in behind Cav and screwd his sprint up. That Dutch or whatever he was lunatic did him a big favour.


----------



## Spinney (19 Jul 2009)

Cav interviewed before today's start looked like he was trying to keep himself under control!

But I don't understand why Hincapie (and Cav) say it was unfair that Hincapie didn't get the yellow jersey. They seemed to imply it was owed to him in some way.


----------



## buggi (19 Jul 2009)

having just watched the aerial shot again, i don't think the barriers come in. it's an illusion created by a painted white line in the road, that disappears towards and under the barriers, therefore, it's not the barriers that close in and make the road narrower, they are just taking it in a different direction, it's Cav himself. it does seem like he does cut off Thor's line. 

Just seen him on TV and he seems a bit subdued.


----------



## marinyork (19 Jul 2009)

Thought Cav interviewed very well for ITV, apart from the cereal bar comment, nothing silly or arrogant.


----------



## HLaB (19 Jul 2009)

buggi said:


> having just watched the aerial shot again, i don't think the barriers come in. it's an illusion created by a painted white line in the road, that disappears towards and under the barriers, therefore, it's not the barriers that close in and make the road narrower, they are just taking it in a different direction, it's Cav himself. it does seem like he does cut off Thor's line.
> 
> Just seen him on TV and he seems a bit subdued.


Given his reaction I think he knows you're right.


----------



## marinyork (19 Jul 2009)

HLaB said:


> Given his reaction I think he knows you're right.



Or could have been told to cool off and stop saying badly sounding things. The pair of them have made themselves look really bad the last few days. Cav's young, his attitude will probably change, but no excusing Hushovd's attitude problem.


----------



## yello (19 Jul 2009)

Spinney said:


> But I don't understand why Hincapie (and Cav) say it was unfair that Hincapie didn't get the yellow jersey. They seemed to imply it was owed to him in some way.



Maybe he thought it was an old boys' network rather than a race? I don't know... bizarre isn't it?

I think you're right buggi, I also think the barriers just follow the line rather than move in. Sad truth is, I reckon Cavendish messed up. I reckon he saw Hushovd to his right and panicked, cut across and (probably unintentionally) blocked him. Cavendish was still on Renshaw's wheel when he ducked right. I reckon if he'd have held his nerve, waited for Renshaw to peel away then he'd have done Hushovd in a straight sprint.


----------



## HLaB (19 Jul 2009)

marinyork said:


> but no excusing Hushovd's attitude problem.


Yeah, over the last while I preferred TH but then he came out with yesterdays quote; unlikely but I hope Cavendish beats him now.


----------



## yello (19 Jul 2009)

HLaB said:


> unlikely but I hope Cavendish beats him now.



Very unlikely sadly. It was a good competition up until yesterday.

I wouldn't be surprised if Cavendish pulls out. It'll look like sore grapes and I hope he doesn't. He needs the practice if he's to become a more rounded rider and worthy of green (says he hinting at another thread!)


----------



## marinyork (19 Jul 2009)

I hope he doesn't pull out, needs the experience and he's got a couple more stages he might win including the Champs-Élysées. I think before yesterday either of them deserved Green, was a good competition.


----------



## JamesM (19 Jul 2009)

Come on someone at Columbia paying a rider from another team to take Thor out on the Champss-Élysées!


----------



## Chuffy (19 Jul 2009)

Hmmm. Thor complained, sure, but it's up to the ref what action they decide to take (if any). Cav's whine about Thor 'trying to get him disqualified' was childish, but about par. 

Interesting comments from Robbie McEwan on the ITV highlights package today. Paraphrasing very roughly: he thought that there was an offence by Cav but the punishment was harsher than the offence merited. He also said that, in his opinion, the commissaires would have taken into account that Cav was deliberately trying to block Hushovd.

Puts the grumping about Hushovd into some expert perspective....


----------



## rich p (19 Jul 2009)

Ah, Chuffy, but you're one of them Cav Haterz as well as one of them Lance Haterz so you see it different from proper peeple.


----------



## marinyork (19 Jul 2009)

Chuffy said:


> Hmmm. Thor complained, sure, but it's up to the ref what action they decide to take (if any). Cav's whine about Thor 'trying to get him disqualified' was childish, but about par.
> 
> Interesting comments from Robbie McEwan on the ITV highlights package today. Paraphrasing very roughly: he thought that there was an offence by Cav but the punishment was harsher than the offence merited. He also said that, in his opinion, the commissaires would have taken into account that Cav was deliberately trying to block Hushovd.
> 
> Puts the grumping about Hushovd into some expert perspective....



I really like Thor but he made himself sound like a class jerk, bragging about trying to get someone disqualified. Let his sprinting do the talking. He didn't, he opened his gob.


----------



## Chuffy (19 Jul 2009)

marinyork said:


> I really like Thor but he made himself sound like a class jerk, bragging about trying to get someone disqualified. Let his sprinting do the talking. He didn't, he opened his gob.


You must have heard a different interview to me. He made what he felt was a legitimate complaint (and he looked pretty p*ssed off when he crossed the line) and it was upheld. The punishment was out of his hands. I didn't hear any 'bragging' about it.

<blows raspberry at Rich P>
I thought that Robbie called it right. Incidentally, he also suggested that a more appropriate punishment would have been to reverse the places. Which sounds about fair. I'm not a Cav hater (yeah, I know you're pulling my pud, but still...) and it's a pity that the jersey competition is pretty much over, because I'd have made Hushovd slight favourite, on the grounds that he can pick up points where Cav can't. That would have made it exciting down to the Champs.


----------



## Skip Madness (19 Jul 2009)

Chuffy said:


> Puts the grumping about Hushovd into some expert perspective....


Meanwhile, Seán Kelly says that it didn't merit punishment. You can find an expert to argue pretty much anything.


----------



## Chuffy (19 Jul 2009)

Skip Madness said:


> Meanwhile, Seán Kelly says that it didn't merit punishment. You can find an expert to argue pretty much anything.


True, but I'd tend to take the word of a scrapper like Robbie at face value in a case like this. TBH when they cut to the interview I was fully expecting him to side with Cav and call down hellfire and damnation upon the race ref.


----------



## marinyork (19 Jul 2009)

Chuffy said:


> You must have heard a different interview to me. He made what he felt was a legitimate complaint (and he looked pretty p*ssed off when he crossed the line) and it was upheld. The punishment was out of his hands. I didn't hear any 'bragging' about it.



He made a complaint, he's allowed to do that (although I would say that play acting and basing the complaint on somebody else's unpopularity is unsportsmanly behaviour). Why he couldn't have shut his trap to journalists on the matter and why he had to open his mouth to berate someone on the finishing line again is very poor behaviour. This morning he interviewed better on it. So he wants the green jersey, good, he'd have probably have won the green jersey anyway and joined an elite bunch of riders to win it twice. Now he has degraded himself.


----------



## Chuffy (19 Jul 2009)

marinyork said:


> He made a complaint, he's allowed to do that (although I would say that *play acting and basing the complaint on somebody else's unpopularity is unsportsmanly behaviour*). Why he couldn't have shut his trap to journalists on the matter and why he had to open his mouth to berate someone on the finishing line again is very poor behaviour. This morning he interviewed better on it. So he wants the green jersey, good, he'd have probably have won the green jersey anyway and joined an elite bunch of riders to win it twice. Now he has degraded himself.


In what way was he 'playacting'?
In what way did he base his complaint on someone else lack of popularity?

Just a thought: if Cav wasn't one of ours, would we even be having this discussion?


----------



## marinyork (19 Jul 2009)

Chuffy said:


> In what way was he 'playacting'?
> In what way did he base his complaint on someone else lack of popularity?
> 
> Just a thought: if Cav wasn't one of ours, would we even be having this discussion?



I think Hushovd was playacting by cycling so close to the barrier and then whinging about it, the way he interviewed after certainly gave me that impression. The complaint was based on Cav's unpopularity. Other people have said it was pretty minor or the team should have been given a telling off, he was banking on the authorities agreeing that Cav had been bad tempered and needed taking down a peg (ironically behaviour Thor himself exhibited around this incident and on the finishing line twice). 

Cav being from the IOM is immaterial, people are more likely to dislike homegrown arrogant people. There was a major change in the jersey competition, it was picked up straight away. As it was right at the front of the peleton and the two fighting it out for a jersey it would be big news whoever it was. I couldn't see the point, before him mouthing off on the line (again), I thought Hushovd had done quite well getting in there and only losing out on a point. Instead mr angry and vindictive comes out. Shame really as it takes away from his performance yesterday and also getting 13th going into to Besancon, which was pretty good, as Cav comes in however minutes later expecting to be ushered onto the podium for turning up late.


----------



## Chuffy (20 Jul 2009)

marinyork said:


> I think Hushovd was playacting by cycling so close to the barrier and then whinging about it, the way he interviewed after certainly gave me that impression.


So his whole sprint was an act? Come on, that's laughable!



> The complaint was based on Cav's unpopularity. Other people have said it was pretty minor or the team should have been given a telling off, he was banking on the authorities agreeing that Cav had been bad tempered and needed taking down a peg (ironically behaviour Thor himself exhibited around this incident and on the finishing line twice).


I wanted an proper explanation, not a repetition of your point and a half-arsed assumption. Sorry, but that just doesn't stand up. Feel free to give us a properly evidenced case for Cav being unpopular along with evidence that Thor was playing on that lack of popularity.


----------



## Flying_Monkey (20 Jul 2009)

Oh come on, Chuffy, you are letting your dislike of Cavendish get the better of you here.

I like both riders, but Thor basically realised that his only chance of making certain of the jersey was to get Cav disqualified on what was the last sprintable stage before Paris. You may regard this as very clever gamesmanship, but it was undoubtedly a tactic on his part. Perhaps that's all part of sprinting, but then Cav's 'move' (such as it was) was nothing compared to some of the apparently completely legal stuff we've seen in the past. Certainly it would not have got him relegated without Thor's display and the complaint. 

And you know full well that there is no more 'evidence' for either your or our proposition apart from that already presented. This is a discussion entirely based on personal views of what took place, and your view is no more the 'default' or common sense view than mine or Marinyork's.


----------



## rich p (20 Jul 2009)

Well you have to assume that the commissaires don't base their rulings on a popularity contest! They apply the rules according to criteria and although the punishment seems a bit harsh in this instance I'm certain it wasn't because Hushovd and Feillu don't like Cav.

I haven't seen an official explanation but Colombia as a team were guilty of indiscretion at least, the way they rode that finish. Why did they bother anyway? Cav has shown he can outsprint TH even when he's wheelsucking.


----------



## Chuffy (20 Jul 2009)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Oh come on, Chuffy, you are letting your dislike of Cavendish get the better of you here.
> 
> I like both riders, but Thor basically realised that his only chance of making certain of the jersey was to get Cav disqualified on what was the last sprintable stage before Paris. You may regard this as very clever gamesmanship, but it was undoubtedly a tactic on his part. Perhaps that's all part of sprinting, but then Cav's 'move' (such as it was) was nothing compared to some of the apparently completely legal stuff we've seen in the past. Certainly it would not have got him relegated without Thor's display and the complaint.
> 
> And you know full well that there is no more 'evidence' for either your or our proposition apart from that already presented. This is a discussion entirely based on personal views of what took place, and your view is no more the 'default' or common sense view than mine or Marinyork's.


<sigh>
It's got nothing to do with what I think about Cav. It's got everything to do with the kneejerk assumptions, including yours, being made about Thor. 


> Thor basically realised that his only chance of making certain of the jersey was to get Cav disqualified



Yes, it's all about people's opinions and mine is that Thor made a complaint, the complaint was upheld (however harsh the punishment) and that another sprinter (one of their peers and no friend of authority) agreed that there was an infringement by Cav, again with the caveat that the punishment was unduly harsh. That's only my opinion but it doesn't rely on mind-reading or conspiracy theory rubbish about Thor planning to get Cav disqualified.


----------



## justAl (20 Jul 2009)

If you look at where TH was 100m further back you'll see him dead centre then move right alongside the barrier. Stupid move unless he was playing the "GET CAV DISQUALIFIED" game. Yes, Cav didn't move off line but he knew TH was on his right side which is why he didn't look that way. They both played a game and Cav lost. Tough t*ts


----------



## Flying_Monkey (20 Jul 2009)

Chuffy said:


> <sigh>
> It's got nothing to do with what I think about Cav. It's got everything to do with the kneejerk assumptions, including yours, being made about Thor.



<sigh right back at you>

I am not making any more assumptions than you. I watched the footage and saw the from various angles and made my own mind up after that. If you had read what I wrote earlier, you'd already know that. In any case, I have certainly never made it a secret that I follow the Norwegians, having grown up in Norway. So I have nothing against Thor that would result in a jerking of any joint, in fact I have always liked him a lot as a rider. Despite that, I did not like his behaviour on this occasion which, as I said, smacks of desperate gamesmanship. 

You, on the other hand, have made it pretty clear that you like Cavendish almost as much as you like Lance... which is to say, about as much as a recurring saddle sore. 

I'll let others decide who is displaying any petty prejudices here.


----------



## rich p (20 Jul 2009)

Well, on Chuffy's behalf, I have to say it's you Flying Monkey and I am a Cav fan.
Do you actually believe the fact that Hushovd doesn't like Cav swayed the commissaires'opinions?


----------



## Chuffy (20 Jul 2009)

rich p said:


> Well, on Chuffy's behalf, I have to say it's you Flying Monkey and I am a Cav fan.
> Do you actually believe the fact that Hushovd doesn't like Cav swayed the commissaires'opinions?


Thanks Rich, saved me from saying it. 
What I feel about Cav (he's not even in the same ballpark as Team LA and I've previously said that I'd like him to get to Paris in green, so let's just drop that one shall we?) has absolutely nothing to do with this. Scraps between sprinters aren't that interesting to me and I've never been that excited by the green jersey, ever. The only aspect of this which I'm interested in is the way that people seem to have suddenly acquired the ability to read minds.


----------



## yello (20 Jul 2009)

Personally, I don't there's any way that Hushovd tried to get Cavendish disqualified. I think that's just a silly thing to suggest. i reckon he went right towards the barriers to attack Cavendish who was still on Renshaw's wheel. Whether Cavendish _deliberately_ blocked Hushvold, I don't know and only Cavendish does. By that I mean, consciously thought 'I need to block'. Personally, I don't think he did and that it was a silly move, maybe in panic, to get a clear line. But I do think he knew Hushovd was there though... and that, for me, is the crux of it. 

Hushovd was clearly displeased as they crossed the line and I think he had every right to complain; at the time and officially. I have not seen any interview with him subsequently where he gloats, so I can't comment on that. I've only seen the one interview and the topic wasn't even mentioned.

The decision was down to the race commissioners. To my mind, it's clear Cavendish blocked Hushovd so punishment was always likely. But, as I said at the time, I've seen worse. That doesn't mean Cavendish wasn't in the wrong though. Some people get done for speeding, some don't; it's the way it goes. 

I'm confident that the race commissioners decided only on the basis of the incident and not with a desire to bring Cavendish down a peg or two. Even if they did, it again doesn't mean that they didn't have justification; Cavendish did block Hushovd.

I'm just peeved that there's no competition for the green jersey now. It was shaping up to be a final day decider! Maybe the race commissioners should have considered that too!


----------



## Haitch (20 Jul 2009)

What's the opinon in France, yello? Here in Holland the TV commentators said immediately it happened (i.e. before the race even finished) that Cavendish would get punished for shutting the door on Hushovd.


----------



## Chuffy (20 Jul 2009)

Alan H said:


> What's the opinon in France, yello? Here in Holland the TV commentators said immediately it happened (i.e. before the race even finished) that Cavendish would get punished for shutting the door on Hushovd.


Well the French hate Cav, so there is dancing in the streets and a public holiday has been declared. 

Thanks Yello, although clearly your petty prejudice against Our Cav is coming out very strongly.


----------



## Chuffy (20 Jul 2009)

yello said:


> Maybe the race commissioners should have considered that too!


That point was put to Robbie McEwan and he said that the answer was a flat-out 'no', they have to take each case on it's merits.


----------



## Crompton (20 Jul 2009)

Chuffy said:


> there is dancing in the streets and a public holiday has been declared.




You misunderstand the situation, they are in fact on strike.


----------



## Chuffy (20 Jul 2009)

Crompton said:


> You misunderstand the situation, they are in fact on strike.


Ah, they think he should have been sent back to Monaco and made to ride the route again as a punishment?


----------



## yello (20 Jul 2009)

Alan H said:


> What's the opinon in France, yello?



I can't honestly say that the commentators called it immediately since my French isn't good enough. Maybe Will knows as he posted it here pretty quickly. I do know that it did go quiet immediately after the finish until the official announcement was made. 

Subsequently, there has been little discussion, simply that Cavendish was disqualified. It seems nobody feels there to be anything contentious about the decision, it simply is as it is. That said, I'm sure there are people here that have cause to smile given Cavendish's previous comments!


----------



## Flying_Monkey (20 Jul 2009)

rich p said:


> Do you actually believe the fact that Hushovd doesn't like Cav swayed the commissaires'opinions?



Err...no. Where did I say that? Are you (and apparently Chuffy too) reading a fantasy version of what I wrote?


----------



## rich p (20 Jul 2009)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Err...no. Where did I say that? Are you (and apparently Chuffy too) reading a fantasy version of what I wrote?



Ok so the commissaires didn't take prejudice into consideration and it was a fair ruling as far as they were concerned and the fact that Hushovd was pissed off with Cavendish is irrelevant. Is that fair?


----------



## Flying_Monkey (20 Jul 2009)

rich p said:


> Ok so the commissaires didn't take prejudice into consideration and it was a fair ruling as far as they were concerned and the fact that Hushovd was pissed off with Cavendish is irrelevant. Is that fair?



I feel like you are living in a some parallel universe to me right now. 

I really don't know what you are arguing with. Certainly not with anything I've said - I've just checked, and nowhere have I even hinted that I might believe that the commissaires were prejudiced or that this had anything to do with what Thor and Cav feel about each other for that matter. Nowhere.

Why not go back and read what I actually wrote, and argue with that if you want, but I can't respond to something that has no relationship to what I said.

Sorry.


----------



## rich p (20 Jul 2009)

_"I like both riders, but Thor basically realised that his only chance of making certain of the jersey was to get Cav disqualified on what was the last sprintable stage before Paris. You may regard this as very clever gamesmanship, but it was undoubtedly a tactic on his part"_

This is one of your quotes which implied to me that Hushovd had some master plan and influence in the decision.

Sorry


----------



## Chuffy (20 Jul 2009)

rich p said:


> _"I like both riders, but Thor basically realised that his only chance of making certain of the jersey was to get Cav disqualified on what was the last sprintable stage before Paris. You may regard this as very clever gamesmanship, but it was undoubtedly a tactic on his part"_
> 
> This is one of your quotes which implied to me that Hushovd had some master plan and influence in the decision.
> 
> Sorry




I think we're mixing up what Marinyork said and implied, what I was arguing in contradiction and FM's interpretation of what I was arguing plus his apparent gift for reading minds. Shall we all start again? I'll go first:-

"Thor looked really annoyed, he made a complaint. _I_ think he made that complaint because he was genuinely aggrieved (as evidenced by his reaction on the line). Robbie McEwan seemed to agree that there was a genuine cause for complaint and that Cav was out of order. I don't actually care all that much either way and I don't hate Cav. If anyone wants to argue that Cav is unpopular (with the referees and Thor) and that "Thor realised that his only chance of making certain of the jersey was to get Cav disqualified" then I want evidence or I am entitled to dismiss it as an unfounded assumption."

Right, who's going next?


----------



## Flying_Monkey (21 Jul 2009)

I think you are indeed mixing up me and Marinyork. 

To make it crystal clear, I don't think Thor had a 'master plan' or any influence over the decision. 

He tried something tactical - that is of low cunning in response to a situation he realised he could take advantage of. Possibly his last role of the dice. It worked. There's no conspiracy here. He may well have been angry at the time (sprinters are always pumped up and convinced that they are the rightful winner - they have to be). But that's hardly the point. He could have decided not to challenge the result, accepted the outcome and continued to fight for the jersey on the road. I would have maintained more of my respect for him if he had. He didn't chose that route. If his challenge had failed, I would still be making the same observation about his tactics, except that I would be pleased that they hadn't succeeded. If it had been the other way around, and Cav had been doing the complaining, I would have been equally critical of him.

Call me odd, but I don't like people 'winning' by trying their luck on the interpretation of regulations. I like people winning by coming first. And my view, which was clearly not shared by the official in question or Chuffy, is that Cav in this case, won, and Thor should have sucked it up.


----------



## yello (21 Jul 2009)

FM, I see what you are saying (even if I do find it a touch corinthian!  ) but, to be clear in my own head, I assume to accept Hushovd's right to make a complaint?

A general question, to all - does a complaint need to be made before the race commissioners can take a judgement? That is, could Cavendish have been dq'ed if nobody had said anything?


----------



## Flying_Monkey (21 Jul 2009)

yello said:


> A general question, to all - does a complaint need to be made before the race commissioners can take a judgement? That is, could Cavendish have been dq'ed if nobody had said anything?



No, the Commissaires (and in fact any race official) can report any infringement of regulations. Clear irregularities are often punished without any complaint being made by another rider or team official. 

Of course, Hushovd had the right to make a complaint, as does anyone. My argument was simply with whether he should have (i.e. whether he was morally right) and whether he was actually correct in his complaint. I don't think he was correct or right. 

Others clearly disagree.

I don't think it worth going on any more about it though. It might have determined the outcome of the Green Jersey competition, but there's a lot more going on in the race.


----------



## yello (21 Jul 2009)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Others clearly disagree.



Yes, I'm afraid I do. Hushvold was entitled to complain and I believe he had just cause too. The race commissioners clearly thought so too. I wonder if they would have acted without his protest? Maybe we'll never know!



> I don't think it worth going on any more about it though.



Well I hope you'll allow others to, if they so wish


----------



## Chuffy (21 Jul 2009)

Flying_Monkey said:


> My argument was simply with whether he should have (i.e. whether he was morally right) and whether he was actually correct in his complaint. I don't think he was correct or right.


That's rather different to making a categorical statement (which you can't prove and which can only be an assumption) that he made a deliberate decision to get Cav disqualified. _That_ is the bit I have trouble accepting.



> And my view, which was clearly not shared by the official in question or Chuffy, is that Cav in this case, won, and Thor should have sucked it up.


Interesting, I don't recall arguing anything about the detail of case itself. More assumptions FM, or are you confusing me with Yello?


----------



## yello (21 Jul 2009)

Thoughts; if one is to continue in the 'sporting' theme, and just a consideration, wasn't Cavendish denying Hushovd the chance to compete? Is that 'sporting'?


----------

