# Time Trial or Road Race?



## Sam Kennedy (6 Dec 2009)

How would I know if I would be better suited to Time Trials or Road Races?

I guess I could try both, but I don't want to wait until June to find out I trained for the wrong thing


----------



## Young Un (6 Dec 2009)

Sam Kennedy said:


> How would I know if I would be better suited to Time Trials or Road Races?
> 
> I guess I could try both, but I don't want to wait until June to find out I trained for the wrong thing



Just do general training - there wont be much difference between the two anyway - And also you don't have to wait until June, I did some road races in March this year, and my first TT in April.

Hope this helps

Steve


----------



## I am Spartacus (6 Dec 2009)

Sam Kennedy said:


> How would I know if I would be better suited to Time Trials or Road Races?
> 
> I guess I could try both, but I don't want to wait until June to find out I trained for the wrong thing



I would start subscribing to the BikeRadar training and racing forums.
I 'm afraid to have to say it but this CycleChat forum is not really suited for gaining much insight into what you are seeking... it is indeed merely chat.. there are a few pro coaches and pretty adequate racers who use Bikeradar.
Heed their advice.


----------



## Bill Gates (7 Dec 2009)

I am Spartacus said:


> I would start subscribing to the BikeRadar training and racing forums.
> I 'm afraid to have to say it but this CycleChat forum is not really suited for gaining much insight into what you are seeking... it is indeed merely chat.. there are a few pro coaches and pretty adequate racers who use Bikeradar.
> Heed their advice.



Depends on the coach and the pretty adequate racer. There are some that believe that you don't need any more leg strength than your granny to ride a bike and by implication that muscle hypertrophy does not occur during training, and there is no need to train your upper body or do any off the bike training. 

All this is in direct contrast to what the offiicial british cycling website says and the top riders do. Anything the top riders say they do is supposed to be to mislead their rivals so that they train incorrectly.  You really couldn't make it up. For them it's all about aerobic fitness don't you know. 

IOW there's good and not so good advice on all forums. Certainly Bike Radar has more contributors to the training section but IMO it's no better than here for advice. This forum is much more healthy as any debate is not subject to heavyhanded moderating and influenced by pathetic posters (big girl blouses) who whine to admin when they don't get their own way. Nah this forum is much better.

Back to the OP. Time Trialling is about maintaining a high cruising speed between 90-95% MHR. This is hard to do as to do this you need to have the ability to suffer. You can train yourself to do this. 

Road racing need more bottle and bike handling skills.Which one you choose depends on your physical and psychological make up. Try both as the training for both is the same although you will need to ride with groups to learn how to follow a wheel.


----------



## Bill Gates (7 Dec 2009)

Just seen your post on bike radar. See that no reply has mentioned the pyschological element of road racing. Can you race down a hill in a bunch? ....and the coach I was refering to just says.... Race both!!

See what I mean?


----------



## jimboalee (7 Dec 2009)

Bill Gates said:


> Depends on the coach and the pretty adequate racer. There are some that believe that you don't need any more leg strength than your granny to ride a bike and by implication that muscle hypertrophy does not occur during training, and there is no need to train your upper body or do any off the bike training.
> 
> All this is in direct contrast to what the offiicial british cycling website says and the top riders do. *Anything the top riders say they do is supposed to be to mislead their rivals so that they train incorrectly.*  You really couldn't make it up. For them it's all about aerobic fitness don't you know.
> 
> ...



Amen to that.


----------



## jimboalee (7 Dec 2009)

Bill Gates said:


> Depends on the coach and the pretty adequate racer. There are some that believe that you don't need any more leg strength than your granny to ride a bike and by implication that muscle hypertrophy does not occur during training, and there is no need to train your upper body or do any off the bike training.
> 
> All this is in direct contrast to what the offiicial british cycling website says and the top riders do. Anything the top riders say they do is supposed to be to mislead their rivals so that they train incorrectly.  *You really couldn't make it up*. For them it's all about aerobic fitness don't you know.
> 
> ...



I could.

Try 'climbing Mt Teide on Tenerife every day for a week'..., two weeks before a major tour.


----------



## Sam Kennedy (7 Dec 2009)

I can suffer, not like it and want to die to stop the pain, but keep going. Whether I can do it for 10 miles or not I don't know, I'll find out on Christmas Day 
I managed to keep 185bpm (theoretical MHR is 203, so 90% effort) for about 2 miles, and to be honest I could have kept going even though I was dying inside.

I used to go out with a club every Saturday (stopped now since its getting wintery and there's already been an accident with black ice, my club is well known for crashes  )
so I'm used to following a wheel, down hill we give each other a bit more space, since some people descend faster than others.

I find training sort of confusing, everywhere has different workouts and rules and different plans. I have managed to simplify a typical week down to: 3 intense sessions, 1 long base miles day, 1 recovery ride or rest day, then the rest of the days for rest.

Or am I way off?


----------



## Bill Gates (7 Dec 2009)

Sam Kennedy said:


> I can suffer, not like it and want to die to stop the pain, but keep going. Whether I can do it for 10 miles or not I don't know, I'll find out on Christmas Day
> I managed to keep 185bpm (theoretical MHR is 203, so 90% effort) for about 2 miles, and to be honest I could have kept going even though I was dying inside.
> 
> I used to go out with a club every Saturday (stopped now since its getting wintery and there's already been an accident with black ice, my club is well known for crashes  )
> ...



No you are not way off.


You have to be fit to train hard and/or do lots of base miles. Initially I would recommend a newbie to train no more than every other day so the body gets used to the training load. On the road start off by going out for an hour, then an hour and a half, then 2 hours gradually working up to 3 hours at a pace of no more 70% effort or 75% MHR. This can be done a couple of times a week in the base building stage and no more than once a week during the race season.

If doing a harder faster session then make it short. You will more than likely lose the benefit of any VO2max training you do now, so I would leave the short interval stuff until you've done 100/120 hours on the road. 

On the other hand LT training is good all year round. Give it some welly on the drags and climbs on the road and/or 2 x 20 on the turbo. Once or a maximum of twice a week interval training is enough. The other rides can be either recovery after a hard ride or base miles at 75%.

Once you've done the base miles you can then do tempo training which is a steady pace but harder than base mileage rides. The sort of rides that most folk on here are doing when they talk about their average speeds. Then bring in VO2max intervals 4-6 weeks before your first race. Bit of a short summary here but hopefully you catch my drift. You cannot be at your best all year round so expect to work towards a peak around June when the weather is pretty good.


----------



## Will1985 (7 Dec 2009)

Do both. A lot of the good road racers round here also time trial as it is effectively their way of training for a breakaway. In fact, the guys who regularly win the road races (often from a long breakaway) are the only road racers who time trial....


----------



## Sam Kennedy (7 Dec 2009)

Thank you for your help BG!

The only input so far I've got from the Bikeradar forum is to man up :S
I don't see the point risking an injury, just to 'man up'.

Oh, Bill Gates, one thing you said is sort of confusing me. You said Time Trials should be done at 90-95% MHR. What if my lactate threshold is at 85% MHR, should I first increase my LT before trying to keep that sort of pace over 10 miles?


----------



## I am Spartacus (7 Dec 2009)

Some of your questions have been addressed already on Training re LT etc etc ... just take a little time and read thru the various threads.
Yes, the forum does have its own style... cycling sport is hard and sometimes lacks the niceties of life .. we'll say no more.
and you have had the definitive answer on both sides ..

do both


----------



## Bill Gates (7 Dec 2009)

Sam Kennedy said:


> Thank you for your help BG!
> 
> The only input so far I've got from the Bikeradar forum is to man up :S
> I don't see the point risking an injury, just to 'man up'.
> ...



Good point. As a % of MHR a rider's LT is unique to them. On the other hand for training purposes your level of effort doesn't have to be spot on your LT to gain the benefits. Training in the LT zone is what you need to do and that is a range 85%-95% MHR. You will get cardiac drift and this will be apparent if you have some mechanism to measure your rear wheel speed and can monitor that your effort is the same.

92/95% MHR is the sort of level that top riders can maintain for their TT pace in an actual race. But there is a higher motivation to ride hard in a race plus you will have that extra kick from the adrenaline. In fact the hardest thing is to keep your pace in check over the first few miles in a TT. 

When you start training LT for the first time then keep it at 85% MHR or even a touch lower. The test of whether or not this is too hard is if you can maintain the 2 x20 minute efforts. BTW give yourself a 10 minute break or a minimum of 5 minutes between sets. Chances are that you will find it tough to finish the 2 sets. No problem. You will have still have done your fitness levels a heap of good. Next time start off at a lower level.

TT's are probably better than RR's as an entry level into racing and in this country TT's are well run. Once you get three or four TT's under your belt then that experience will be useful for when entering a RR.


----------



## Sam Kennedy (7 Dec 2009)

I will definitely have to keep my pace in check for any type of event, in my clubs hill climb I went too hard at the beginning and was redlining even at the first 50ft of the hill, (it was 1.1 miles).

Once I have an idea of what sort of pace I can keep over 10 miles, I will have a better idea of what pace to keep in races.


----------



## palinurus (7 Dec 2009)

Do both if you want. It'll take a few seasons to get up to speed and work out what you are good at/ enjoy doing anyway.


----------



## Ian H (7 Dec 2009)

Basic question: Do you belong to a club?


----------



## Will1985 (7 Dec 2009)

Ian H said:


> Basic question: Do you belong to a club?





Sam Kennedy said:


> in my clubs hill climb


It's mentioned more than once.


----------



## Ian H (7 Dec 2009)

I beg your pardon, but I would have thought that a decent club would have coaching and advice readily available for someone wanting to start competitive cycling.


----------



## Sam Kennedy (7 Dec 2009)

Well I've already contacted someone in my club who has sent me links to different tacx workout plans, and a lot of people in the club race. I started a thread on my clubs forum but that was before I decided I wanted to race and the thread died.

I'll get in contact with the club leader/owner/starter and see what he recommends.


----------



## montage (7 Dec 2009)

Sam Kennedy said:


> How would I know if I would be better suited to Time Trials or Road Races?
> 
> I guess I could try both, but I don't want to wait until June to find out I trained for the wrong thing



Train both.
Unless you are at a very high level there is little point specializing just yet. The way to find out is to do them....anyway, the training should compliment each other at your level (I am asuming you have limited experience in either, correct me if I am mistaken...if I am then I apologise). TT training will assist in breakaways whilst racing, and race training will help raise your general fitness, making you faster at TTs. When you hit 22 min TTs and/or are doing well in Cat 2 racing then you will be able to see which is more suited to you.

If starting off, I would train for TTs are this will give you a better base to work off, then throw in some sprint training/short interval racing to prepare for cat 4 races - most cat 4 races I've seen end in a sprint, either with a large breakaway or the main bunch. Hill training will also make for good training - but if you have a good sprint then just being able to suck a wheel on the hills will suffice during races.


----------



## montage (7 Dec 2009)

if you really want an answer, TT or road race, then there are a few things that can help you decide. In previous sports, you been better at long efforts, or one of the faster kids sprinting etc?
How tall are you, how much you weigh?

Thinking about it, training more for TTs would make you better at races than training for races would at TTs. Look at how Bradley Wiggins raced his TdF, very much a TT portfolio. Sure he could answer the accellerations, but it was his ability to cling on with the big guns and suffer that got him his 4th place.


----------



## bonj2 (7 Dec 2009)

Bill Gates said:


> Depends on the coach and the pretty adequate racer. There are some that believe that you don't need any more leg strength than your granny to ride a bike and by implication that muscle hypertrophy does not occur during training, and there is no need to train your upper body or do any off the bike training.
> 
> All this is in direct contrast to what the offiicial british cycling website says and the top riders do. Anything the top riders say they do is supposed to be to mislead their rivals so that they train incorrectly.  You really couldn't make it up. For them it's all about aerobic fitness don't you know.


it's all about lactic threshold.
your likes of lance armstrong et al havent' got much bigger legs than your average joe on the street, so their power can't be that much greater. But they can sustain maximum power (or near maximum) for longer.


----------



## Sam Kennedy (7 Dec 2009)

Just because someone has smaller legs doesn't mean they are weaker than other people with larger legs.

I know someone who isn't too big, but lifts bigger weights than some bouncers, who mainly train just for bigger muscles.


----------



## bonj2 (7 Dec 2009)

Sam Kennedy said:


> Just because someone has smaller legs doesn't mean they are weaker than other people with larger legs.
> 
> I know someone who isn't too big, but lifts bigger weights than some bouncers, who mainly train just for bigger muscles.



for the same size muscle, some may be denser (more 'toned') than others.
but it doesn't account for that much.

another thing you've got to remember about bouncers is they often normally only have to LOOK hard. most of them wear fake pecs.


another thing that varies is ratio of fast twitch to slow twitch fibres, although i don't know enough about it to know what the advantages of each are. I know sprinters have much higher ratio of fast twitch to normal people, probably to a lesser extent also time triallists, but not sure about road racing.


----------



## Campfire (7 Dec 2009)

Ummm, sounds very technical this for starters! We just got plenty of club runs in, I trained with the lads who would leave me if I couldn't keep up, then out training 25m two or three times a week, then raced! Mind you it was in the 60s!

I did try a few road races but they do play dirty sometimes and it's so easy to get hit by someone or to hit someone else's wheel, race over. Also possible injury, whereas in TTs unless you do something silly, or road is bad condition or you come off at a turn, you have much more control. For starters anyway. 

Good luck with whatever you decide to do. I think it was interesting someone remarking you shouldn't train every day, I think that's absolutely right. Otherwise you've nothing to work your way out of.


----------



## jimboalee (8 Dec 2009)

bonj2 said:


> for the same size muscle, some may be denser (more 'toned') than others.
> but it doesn't account for that much.
> 
> another thing you've got to remember about bouncers is they often normally only have to LOOK hard. most of them wear *fake pecs*.
> ...



Honestly, have you never heared of a Kevlar 'anti knife' jacket?


----------



## jimboalee (8 Dec 2009)

jimboalee said:


> Honestly, have you never heared of a Kevlar 'anti knife' jacket?



I wish they were available when I was younger. I've got a nice little souvenir below my ribcage.


----------



## Bill Gates (8 Dec 2009)

bonj2 said:


> *it's all about lactic threshold*.
> your likes of lance armstrong et al havent' got much bigger legs than your average joe on the street, so their power can't be that much greater. But they can sustain maximum power (or near maximum) for longer.



No it isn't. There's tons more stuff that's too numerous to list here.

.................and leg strength in this context is muscle endurance.......and a large muscle isn't necessarily stronger than a smaller one..........and their (Lance Armstrong et al) absolute power is much much more than the average joe in the street. 

Apart from I agree that their sustainable power is greater than your average joe, but then that's hardly earth shattering.


----------



## jimboalee (8 Dec 2009)

Two schools of thought here.

Size or Density????

Ask your Dad.

Trivia.
Would it be a surprise to know weight-for-weight, a chimpanzee is over four times stronger than a human. Yup. Why is this considering our DNA is so similar?

Incidentally, the other primates are equal or stronger than a chimpanzee, so why is the human so WEAK?


----------



## lukesdad (11 Dec 2009)

To get back to the op the main difference between the 2 disiciplines as I see it and may have a bearing on what you decide are;
TT 100% race of truth as some call it.
RR More brain power, and the ability to race with sudden injections of pace.


----------



## PK99 (11 Dec 2009)

lukesdad said:


> To get back to the op the main difference between the 2 disiciplines as I see it and may have a bearing on what you decide are;
> TT 100% race of truth as some call it.
> RR More brain power, and the ability to race with sudden injections of pace.




Friends (now in 60's/70's) used to time trial and road race: 
He beat her road racing
She beat him time trialling

His explanation: 
On a TT he got bored, started planning holidays etc and lost focus on the effort
In a RR he had the better tactical nous

that is much the same as your comment


----------



## Blott's Mate (13 Dec 2009)

Ian H said:


> I beg your pardon, but I would have thought that a decent club would have coaching and advice readily available for someone wanting to start competitive cycling.



Nope. Diddly squit in our club.You can get all you need for TTs from books/on-line/forums.Well I did & won all the club's ladies TT trophies. Road racing would be different as it's not just brute force & ignorance & as for cyclocross! That put me in my place. Coaching for RR & CX I reckon.


----------



## Bill Gates (13 Dec 2009)

Sam Kennedy said:


> Well I've already contacted someone in my club who has sent me links to different tacx workout plans, and a lot of people in the club race. I started a thread on my clubs forum but that was before I decided I wanted to race and the thread died.
> 
> I'll get in contact with the club leader/owner/starter and see what he recommends.



Have you managed to do any workouts on the turbo yet?


----------



## Sam Kennedy (14 Dec 2009)

Bill Gates said:


> Have you managed to do any workouts on the turbo yet?



Not yet... it's for Christmas   (Happy it's for Christmas, sad I can't use it)


----------



## Bill Gates (15 Dec 2009)

Sam Kennedy said:


> Not yet... it's for Christmas   (Happy it's for Christmas, sad I can't use it)



I got my christmas present early as I needed it now. A new rear wheel and cassette so that I can now use 2 x sets of wheels for training. One with michelin pro race 3's and the other with gatorskins and then another with the turbo tyre (old racing tyre) on. I used to have to flaff about changing tyres, now I don't.


----------



## montage (15 Dec 2009)

got my turbo for my birthday - it is great 
good excuse to set the laptop up with a film as well and take a break from that ever looming revision


----------

