# Tabata protocol



## rich p (31 Jan 2010)

I did a search and only found an oblique reference to it on here. 
I was recommended it some time ago and have started doing it once or twice a week on the turbo and I don't know if it lives up to the claims of being thre best training you'll ever do but I feel in pretty good shape for the time of the year. Could be the placebo effect or it could be kosher.

Anyone else have an opinion on its value?

http://www.tabataprotocol.com/


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## davidg (31 Jan 2010)

my wife does tabata but with circuit type things at home.

It is high intensity interval training and it kills you! must be good for improving fitness, although not endurance

she does a 20 min workout 20 sec on 10 rest repeating 4-5 excercises...


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## darkstar (31 Jan 2010)

This is a method of high intensity interval training, i mentioned it's merits in a recent weight loss thread but found some people who didn't agree with me. I believe it is the best method for weight loss, i use the insanity workout regime fairly regularly when I'm cutting and find the results to be mind blowing. You meant to feel exhausted after each session, unable to carry on, then you know you've pushed yourself far enough.


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## montage (31 Jan 2010)

only for 4 minutes?
Could incorporate it into another session I guess


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## darkstar (31 Jan 2010)

montage said:


> only for 4 minutes?
> Could incorporate it into another session I guess



It certainly needs to be longer than 4 minutes. Whenever i do a session it's usually an hour (including 10 minutes of stretching) couple of minutes at max effort followed but 30 seconds of rest and repeated over and over. It destroys you.


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## Bill Gates (31 Jan 2010)

darkstar said:


> It certainly needs to be longer than 4 minutes. Whenever i do a session it's usually an hour (including 10 minutes of stretching) couple of minutes at *max effort* followed but 30 seconds of rest and repeated over and over. It destroys you.



Max effort if really "max" should not be sustainable beyond 20 seconds on a bike. I have used sprint intervals in the past when it realy was "max" efforts for 30 seconds on 30 seconds off in sets of 5 with one minute rest between sets. Stretching the effort from 20 seconds to 30 seconds definitely results in a loss of power and the last 10 seconds is a test of motivation. 

The most I ever completed was 4 sets of 5 sprints. At the time I was winning open TT's fairly regularly so was at peak fitness.


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## rich p (31 Jan 2010)

If it's longer than 20 secs max and 10 secs rest then it's not the same thing. I have found it a great incentive to work intensely and it can of course be incorporated into a longer session. 
I'm interested to find out from others whether it proved effective for them


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## Bill Gates (31 Jan 2010)

rich p said:


> *If it's longer than 20 secs max and 10 secs rest then it's not the same thing.* I have found it a great incentive to work intensely and it can of course be incorporated into a longer session.
> I'm interested to find out from others whether it proved effective for them



Well they aren't "max" efforts that's for sure. (BTW where did the 10 seconds rest come from?)

What's it done for you then? i.e results wise


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## rich p (31 Jan 2010)

Bill Gates said:


> Well they aren't "max" efforts that's for sure. (BTW where did the 10 seconds rest come from?)
> 
> What's it done for you then? i.e results wise



I don't get the first bit, sorry. They're max efforts fior me! The 10 seconds rest is the protocol.

Results? In terms of fitness I refer the honourable gentleman to my OP!


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## montage (31 Jan 2010)

I doubt they offer much more than any other high intensity interval training, but certainly looks to be an effective workout - especially if you are a gym rat


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## darkstar (31 Jan 2010)

Bill Gates said:


> Max effort if really "max" should not be sustainable beyond 20 seconds on a bike. I have used sprint intervals in the past when it realy was "max" efforts for 30 seconds on 30 seconds off in sets of 5 with one minute rest between sets. Stretching the effort from 20 seconds to 30 seconds definitely results in a loss of power and the last 10 seconds is a test of motivation.
> 
> The most I ever completed was 4 sets of 5 sprints. At the time I was winning open TT's fairly regularly so was at peak fitness.


Forgot to mention, i don't do it on a bike! I do some sprint training but when it comes to interval training it's all floor based exercises (eg a cycle of squats, press ups, then straight to a running plank and repeat. You go as hard as you possibly can and recover for a short period of time.

Oh and btw 'max effort' mean, to mean going as fast/doing as many reps in a certain amount of time possible, the amount/speed you achieve has nothing to do with it as long as you are pushing as hard as you can.


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## Bill Gates (31 Jan 2010)

rich p said:


> I don't get the first bit, sorry. They're max efforts fior me! The 10 seconds rest is the protocol.
> 
> Results? In terms of fitness I refer the honourable gentleman to my OP!




OK so the protocol is 20 seconds on 10 seconds rest for 8 minutes. I still say that to go at max (if really at "max") effort for 20 seconds would need more than 10 seconds rest for repeat efforts. Some are taliking about doing this for 20 minutes or even an hour. Ridiculous! Can't be done.

This training is for your VO2max and IMO is best left until you've got some endurance miles under your belt.


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## Bill Gates (31 Jan 2010)

darkstar said:


> *Forgot to mention, i don't do it on a bike! I do some sprint training but when it comes to interval training it's all floor based exercises* (eg a cycle of squats, press ups, then straight to a running plank and repeat. You go as hard as you possibly can and recover for a short period of time.
> 
> Oh and btw 'max effort' mean, to mean going as fast/doing as many reps in a certain amount of time possible, the amount/speed you achieve has nothing to do with it as long as you are pushing as hard as you can.



Max efforts on a bike can be sustained for longer periods than off the bike due to the body weight being supported. What you describe is circuit training and is not "tabata protocol" type training. Your definition of max is probably nearer 85% actual max and will be probably training your LT.


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## rich p (31 Jan 2010)

Bill Gates said:


> OK so the protocol is 20 seconds on 10 seconds rest for 8 minutes. I still say that to go at max (if really at "max") effort for 20 seconds would need more than 10 seconds rest for repeat efforts. Some are taliking about doing this for 20 minutes or even an hour. Ridiculous! Can't be done.
> 
> This training is for your VO2max and IMO is best left until you've got some endurance miles under your belt.



You only do it for 4 minutes after a 15 to 20 minute warm-up!
It's the max effort given your progressive tiredness.


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## darkstar (31 Jan 2010)

Bill Gates said:


> Max efforts on a bike can be sustained for longer periods than off the bike due to the body weight being supported. What you describe is circuit training and is not "tabata protocol" type training. Your definition of max is probably nearer 85% actual max and will be probably training your LT.


Good point, i didn't distinguish the difference between the two! It's feel like max effort at the time though! Had a session today and felt dead afterwards (may have something to do with the 20 mile run yesterday, think overtraining may be becoming a problem)


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## montage (31 Jan 2010)

Bill Gates said:


> OK so the protocol is 20 seconds on 10 seconds rest for 8 minutes. I still say that to go at max (if really at "max") effort for 20 seconds would need more than 10 seconds rest for repeat efforts. Some are taliking about doing this for 20 minutes or even an hour. Ridiculous! Can't be done.
> 
> This training is for your VO2max and IMO is best left until you've got some endurance miles under your belt.



max effort at which you can produce at the time.
I.e. not 1000Watts, then 1000 Watts the next effort. The amount of power would diminish, even though you are putting in your max effort.


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## darkstar (31 Jan 2010)

montage said:


> max effort at which you can produce at the time.
> I.e. not 1000Watts, then 1000 Watts the next effort. The amount of power would diminish, even though you are putting in your max effort.


Thats what i thought. Max effort is surely the maximum effort you are capable of producing at the time, which is obviously going to reduce over time.


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## Bill Gates (31 Jan 2010)

darkstar said:


> Thats what i thought. Max effort is surely the maximum effort you are capable of producing at the time, which is obviously going to reduce over time.



Then it's not going to do you much good. Once the effort is unsustainable then pack in and go to bed. Training to exhaustion is not the way to progess. If you overdo it then that will wipe out several days training. There's always next time.

When I first start my sprint intervals I'll be lucky to complete one set of 5 before stopping. Then next time one set plus another two sprints and then the next time after that maybe 2 x sets and so on.


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## lukesdad (31 Jan 2010)

Not familiar with these sessions but dont you need to increase the recovery time after each 20 secs "Max" .


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## MacB (31 Jan 2010)

rich p said:


> You only do it for 4 minutes after a 15 to 20 minute warm-up!
> It's the max effort given your progressive tiredness.



So could you slot this in within a longer bike ride, basically a 5 minute bit in the middle somewhere? Would it be ok to still have a few miles to ride afterwards?


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## rich p (31 Jan 2010)

MacB said:


> So could you slot this in within a longer bike ride, basically a 5 minute bit in the middle somewhere? Would it be ok to still have a few miles to ride afterwards?



Yes, indeed. The 4 minute effort is after a suitable warm-up and after which you can continue on a normal session or ride.
It was highly recommended in Cyling Weekly in the autumn and is supposed to be applicable to other sports such as rowing and running.


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## MacB (31 Jan 2010)

rich p said:


> Yes, indeed. The 4 minute effort is after a suitable warm-up and after which you can continue on a normal session or ride.
> It was highly recommended in Cyling Weekly in the autumn and is supposed to be applicable to other sports such as rowing and running.




The appeal for me would be the improved fat burning potential, I could do with it

I think some of the others on the thread are far more serious, something like this, 3 times a week, could work well for the likes of me.


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## rich p (31 Jan 2010)

MacB said:


> The appeal for me would be the improved fat burning potential, I could do with it
> 
> I think some of the others on the thread are far more serious, something like this, 3 times a week, could work well for the likes of me.



It might be hard to time it and find a road where you could safely do it! It's easy on a turbo.


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## lukesdad (31 Jan 2010)

How are you measuring max is this by HR or as hard as you can go or some other means?


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## rich p (31 Jan 2010)

lukesdad said:


> How are you measuring max is this by HR or as hard as you can go or some other means?



Just as hard as I can given progressive tiredness although I have a good idea from the computer. It gets to the point where I can't be arsed to look down though! It's possible to sustain something near max for such a short time


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## Bill Gates (31 Jan 2010)

lukesdad said:


> How are you measuring max is this by HR or as hard as you can go or some other means?



You can't judge max efforts with HR as the heart rate will be lagging behind. It's either perceived effort or power. On a turbo you could you coud use a computer with a speed sensor to judge when the effort drops.


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## lukesdad (31 Jan 2010)

So its red mist for 20, 10 thank god thats over, etc.


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## lukesdad (31 Jan 2010)

Bill Gates said:


> You can't judge max efforts with HR as the heart rate will be lagging behind. It's either perceived effort or power. On a turbo you could you coud use a computer with a speed sensor to judge when the effort drops.



Thats what I thought.


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## rich p (31 Jan 2010)

lukesdad said:


> So its red mist for 20, 10 thank god thats over, etc.



Exactly. 10 seconds goes in a flash!


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## lukesdad (31 Jan 2010)

Sorry. Maybe Im thick but I can t see the benefits. Certainly not in the weight loss dept. Unless its a boost to raise the effort for the rst of the session is it a time thing?

The only thing I do I can compare with is interval sprints on the road. Which are 20 secs. but I sure as hell need more than 10 secs to recover.


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## MacB (31 Jan 2010)

lukesdad said:


> Sorry. Maybe Im thick but I can t see the benefits. Certainly not in the weight loss dept. Unless its a boost to raise the effort for the rst of the session is it a time thing?
> 
> The only thing I do I can compare with is interval sprints on the road. Which are 20 secs. but I sure as hell need more than 10 secs to recover.



Maybe not but if we're only talking 15 minutes a week here, it can't hurt to try.


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## PK99 (31 Jan 2010)

MacB said:


> Maybe not but if we're only talking 15 minutes a week here, it can't hurt to try.



Oh, it hurts!


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## lukesdad (31 Jan 2010)

MacB said:


> Maybe not but if we're only talking 15 minutes a week here, it can't hurt to try.



No, but are you going to gauge the results.


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## MacB (31 Jan 2010)

lukesdad said:


> No, but are you going to gauge the results.



I'm not, I'm going to do it as a fad for a while then give up


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## PK99 (31 Jan 2010)

"On paper, the Tabata Protocol offers a quick way to get fit in just four minutes of high-intensity work per session.* But don't be misled: This regimen is grueling. It was originally developed for Olympic-caliber athletes, and Dr. Tabata reported that they were wiped out by the routine*. It's worth mentioning that when testing the protocol--described as 6-7 sets--most of the subjects were exhausted after the sixth set of sprints and couldn't complete the seventh. So this style of training isn't for a beginner and should only be considered by someone who has a solid fitness base."


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## MacB (31 Jan 2010)

PK99 said:


> "On paper, the Tabata Protocol offers a quick way to get fit in just four minutes of high-intensity work per session.* But don't be misled: This regimen is grueling. It was originally developed for Olympic-caliber athletes, and Dr. Tabata reported that they were wiped out by the routine*. It's worth mentioning that when testing the protocol--described as 6-7 sets--most of the subjects were exhausted after the sixth set of sprints and couldn't complete the seventh. So this style of training isn't for a beginner and should only be considered by someone who has a solid fitness base."



not hard to modulate it, treat the full protocol as an upper limit and work within that.


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## lukesdad (31 Jan 2010)

MacB said:


> I'm not, I'm going to do it as a fad for a while then give up


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