# UCI Road World Championships Bergen 2017 **No Spoilers Now**



## brommers (5 Sep 2017)

Less than two weeks to go to the start of the championships and time to start thinking about which riders might be involved.


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## S-Express (5 Sep 2017)

BC is already thinking...

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/g...irmed-for-2017-UCI-Road-World-Championships-0


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## brommers (5 Sep 2017)

On the Bergen circuit, for the men's race, which they do 11 times, there is a climb of about 1.5km @ 6.5%, who would this be best suited to? Stannard, Swift, Thomas, Kennaugh? Can't see Cav or Stevo being involved. Dowsett would surely have been a better bet than Mark Christian???, particularly with the TT in mind. Don't think that Froome will be involved in the road race.


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## S-Express (5 Sep 2017)

1.5km at 6.5% is nothing special tbh. The sprinters won't be troubled by that..


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## Adam4868 (5 Sep 2017)

Looks perfect for Sagan .


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## brommers (5 Sep 2017)

S-Express said:


> 1.5km at 6.5% is nothing special tbh. The sprinters won't be troubled by that..


Not on it's own, but doing it 11 times could turn it in to somewhere for attacks to take place, so I can't see a mass sprint finish, especially as the race is over 260km. I think you can add the likes of Matthews, GVA, Gilbert, Kwiatkowski and EBH to Sagan.


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## Adam4868 (5 Sep 2017)

If I was a betting person it would be Sagan,if picking who i would like to....Kwiatowski.


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## brommers (5 Sep 2017)

Riders per nation:
http://www.uci.ch/mm/Document/News/News/18/33/84/QuotasBergen_2017_27_aout_ENG_English.pdf


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## Adam4868 (5 Sep 2017)

I wouldn't rule out Froome riding it yet


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## mjr (5 Sep 2017)

Adam4868 said:


> I wouldn't rule out Froome riding it yet


Oh great(!) Do we need someone with Froome's senior world championship record there? 2011 DNF, 2012 DNF, 2013 DNF, 2014 DNF, 2015 & 2016 not selected.


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## Adam4868 (5 Sep 2017)

Judge him on his current form


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## mjr (5 Sep 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> Yeah but ... you can't ignore his record in the British Nationals.


Has he even entered it since his 4th place in 2009?



Adam4868 said:


> Judge him on his current form


Certainly - I like Froome but he has no current form in one-day races, has won only one stage of any race so far this year IIRC and so does not deserve to be at the worlds. His tendency to DNFery at past worlds is just the final nail.


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## Adam4868 (5 Sep 2017)

What about his form in a TT ?


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## mjr (5 Sep 2017)

Adam4868 said:


> What about his form in a TT ?


I don't care about TTs much and mainly watch them if I'm having trouble sleeping... but what about his form in a TT? How many ITTs has Froome won before that announcement? It looks pretty obvious that Cummings and Thomas would be the TT choice from that squad, with Dowsett and Dibben as possible alternates. I don't know why Froome's on that list unless they think he can play road captain, as Rowe's a big loss there.


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## Adam4868 (5 Sep 2017)

mjr said:


> I don't care about TTs much and mainly watch them if I'm having trouble sleeping... but what about his form in a TT? How many ITTs has Froome won before that announcement? It looks pretty obvious that Cummings and Thomas would be the TT choice from that squad, with Dowsett and Dibben as possible alternates. I don't know why Froome's on that list unless they think he can play road captain, as Rowe's a big loss there.


Well agree to disagree,I think he could probably be included on his recent form alone,forget about the few grand tours he's rode and won.He might not even compete in the road race,but in a individual TT he'd get my pick.


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## themosquitoking (5 Sep 2017)

Adam4868 said:


> Well agree to disagree,I think he could probably be included on his recent form alone,forget about the few grand tours he's rode and won.He might not even compete in the road race,but in a individual TT he'd get my pick.


He got beaten by Thomas at the TdF though.


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## brommers (5 Sep 2017)

Froome really comes into his own on the longer TTs around the 40km mark.


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## Adam4868 (5 Sep 2017)

themosquitoking said:


> He got beaten by Thomas at the TdF though.


It was pissing it down,he'd already know of the crashes that went before him.What was it 11/14 seconds to geraint ? He won't have been bothered to much to come 2nd....
To not think Froome is one of the best TTs out there ? Really...


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## mjr (5 Sep 2017)

Adam4868 said:


> To not think Froome is one of the best TTs out there ? Really...


Well, how many TT championships has he won?

He might be good in a TT in the third week of a race, but that's not the world's.


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## themosquitoking (5 Sep 2017)

Adam4868 said:


> It was pissing it down,he'd already know of the crashes that went before him.What was it 11/14 seconds to geraint ? He won't have been bothered to much to come 2nd....
> To not think Froome is one of the best TTs out there ? Really...


I didn't say he wasn't but you'd have to put Thomas and Cummings as the first two on the list and i believe our list is only two long.


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## jarlrmai (7 Sep 2017)

Froome, Alex Dowsett would be our 2 best ITTers over WC distance in my opinion.

My money is on that ex skier chap for the TT overall.


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## brommers (7 Sep 2017)

Men's TT

https://bergen2017.no/courses/time-trial/elite-men/

Dowsett wasn't shortlisted because of the nature of the course.

I think we might see some riders changing bikes for the final climb.


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## brommers (7 Sep 2017)

jarlrmai said:


> My money is on that ex skier chap for the TT overall.


Roglic


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## brommers (10 Sep 2017)

Going by how strongly that Froome has ridden the final days of the Vuelta, it is likely that he will do the TTT for Sky and the ITT.


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## Doseone (11 Sep 2017)

Will the TT course suit Rohan Dennis?


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## brommers (11 Sep 2017)

Doseone said:


> Will the TT suit Rohan Dennis?


Not so sure about the final climb.


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## Adam4868 (12 Sep 2017)

*Elite Men*
*Time trial:* Steve Cummings, Chris Froome.

*Road Race: *Adam Blythe, Mark Christian, Jon Dibben, Owain Doull, Tao Geoghegan Hart, Pete Kennaugh, Ian Stannard, Ben Swift, Scott Thwaites.

*Elite Women*
*Time trial:* Elinor Barker, Hannah Barnes.

*Road Race:* Elinor Barker, Alice Barnes, Hannah Barnes, Lizzie Deignan, Dani King, Mel Lowther, Hayley Simmonds.

No Geraint or Cav


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## Adam4868 (12 Sep 2017)

Interesting to see Cummings and Froome


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## brommers (12 Sep 2017)

Adam4868 said:


> Mark Christian


Who is he related to at British Cycling?


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## 400bhp (12 Sep 2017)

Dumoulin or Froome will win the TT


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## BurningLegs (14 Sep 2017)

What's the best way to watch the worlds this weekend? I don't have Eurosport (assuming it would be on there live), does anyone know if there will be highlights on ITV4?


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## Adam4868 (14 Sep 2017)

http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/racing/uci-road-world-championships-tv-guide-288593


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## Adam4868 (14 Sep 2017)

Maybe I got it wrong before,but looks like Geraint Thomas in squad now ?


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## mjr (14 Sep 2017)

http://road.cc/content/news/229296-steve-cummings-withdraws-great-britain-world-championships-team - Cummings withdraws from ITT, saying he was named without being asked and feels he has insufficient time to prepare. Place goes to Tao Geoghehan Hart


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## rich p (14 Sep 2017)

Cummings would have no real chance in the ITT but he'd have been useful in the road race. Strange selection process.


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## Adam4868 (14 Sep 2017)

Bit odd if they nemed him without asking ?


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## mjr (14 Sep 2017)

Adam4868 said:


> Bit odd if they nemed him without asking ?


You're new to British Cycling's ways, then? This uncoordination is minor compared to the bizarre stuff happening around women's racing a few years ago, described in Nicole Cooke's book "The Breakaway".

I like this comment under the road.cc article: "British Cycling shows more organisational incompetence than your average village fête"


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## Adam4868 (14 Sep 2017)

Theres no love lost with Ellingworth either.


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## lyn1 (14 Sep 2017)

rich p said:


> Cummings would have no real chance in the ITT but *he'd have been useful in the road race. Strange selection process*.



Not really. The probability of him riding away from a couple of dozen of the World's best Classics riders on a Classics course is negligible, even if he was fully fit, which he isn't. There is however, a probability that he would ride 250k at the back as he so often does. This contributes nothing to the team, which is what he did in Richmond, a situation not appreciated by some management and riders, particularly as other guys were burying themselves trying to keep Swifty at the front on every climb. If he were to ride for others, he would certainly make a contribution, but he appears to do that very rarely, even at DDD, so BC do not appear to be confident that he will be "on message".
They do not have a realistic contender anyway, so have probably taken the opportunity to introduce 4 younger riders who have not ridden at this level or distance previously, but may be ones for the future.They will benefit from the experience and be prepared to dig in and get their hands dirty.


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## rich p (14 Sep 2017)

I appreciate what you're saying and he does ride that way in stage races. My recollection of Richmind was slightly different so I checked the results and he finished in 31st place just behind Swift and in front of the other GB riders, Stannard and Yates, unless I've missed something.
So he can do it if he chooses to.


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## mjr (14 Sep 2017)

lyn1 said:


> If he were to ride for others, he would certainly make a contribution, but he appears to do that very rarely, even at DDD, so BC do not appear to be confident that he will be "on message".


I thought DDD were cool with Cummings lone-wolfing like that because he picks up the occasional headline win (he was their fifth WorldTour scoring rider in 2016). It's not really a tactic that BC use often, though.



lyn1 said:


> They do not have a realistic contender anyway, so have probably taken the opportunity to introduce 4 younger riders who have not ridden at this level or distance previously, but may be ones for the future.They will benefit from the experience and be prepared to dig in and get their hands dirty.


It's a valid tactic, as long as they don't instead learn the DNF habit seen over the last 7 or 8 years. But "realistic contender"? It's a long enough race to be a bit of a lottery sometimes.


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## lyn1 (14 Sep 2017)

rich p said:


> I appreciate what you're saying and he does ride that way in stage races. My recollection of Richmind was slightly different so I checked the results and he finished in 31st place just behind Swift and in front of the other GB riders, Stannard and Yates, unless I've missed something.
> So he can do it if he chooses to.


He rode at the back for 95+% of the race (commentators were joking about it for 5 hours), contributed nothing to the team, then worked through to 31st . I do not think that was the plan. Given he sat at the back all day then its no surprise that the doms who buried themselves rolled in behind him. I just do not think BC trust him, which may be the problem when it comes to selection.


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## lyn1 (14 Sep 2017)

mjr said:


> I thought DDD were cool with Cummings lone-wolfing like that because he picks up the occasional headline win (he was their fifth WorldTour scoring rider in 2016). It's not really a tactic that BC use often, though.



The management are, but that does not mean all the riders are happy about it, especially when the are knackered and would appreciate a bit of help. 

True, he was 5th highest scorer last year, although looking at this year, Thwaites is 4th and he has never had leadership and just done dom work all year...so not sure how much it means in a team like DDD who score so few points anyway


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## brommers (14 Sep 2017)

Steve Cummings did put in a big shift at the Olympic Road Race last year


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## brommers (15 Sep 2017)

Only 11 of the World Tour teams have entered the team time trial.

http://www.procyclingstats.com/race/World_Championships_-_TTT_2017_Startlist


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## brommers (15 Sep 2017)

Incidentally, why isn't it compulsory for WT teams, like the top level races are?


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## brommers (15 Sep 2017)

Men's TT and RR odds

*Elite men’s time trial odds (winner – William Hill)*
Tom Dumoulin 8/13
Rohan Dennis 10/3
Chris Froome 11/2
Michal Kwiatkowski 12/1
Primoz Roglic 12/1
Maciej Bodnar 22/1
Tony Martin 25/1
Victor Campenaerts 25/1
Vasil Kiryienka 28/1
Wilco Kelderman 28/1

*Elite men’s road race odds (winner – William Hill)*
Peter Sagan 11/4
Edvald Boasson Hagen 7/1
Michal Kwiatkowski 7/1
Fernando Gaviria 10/1
Greg Van Avermaet 10/1
Michael Matthews 15/1
Alexander Kristoff 20/1
Elia Viviani 20/1
Julian ALaphilippe 22/1
Matteo Trentin 22/1


Read more at http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/r...urites-for-the-win-351420#Zav6q0UPCMjO8KIo.99


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## brommers (15 Sep 2017)

Picture this: the 1-2-3 in the men's ITT Stefan Kung, Chris Froome and Odd Christian Eiking and the music ringing out when they step on the podium, ''everybody was Kung Froome Eiking, those kicks were .......''

And I haven't even been drinking!


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## Pro Tour Punditry (15 Sep 2017)

brommers said:


> Picture this: the 1-2-3 in the men's ITT Stefan Kung, Chris Froome and Odd Christian Eiking and the music ringing out when they step on the podium, ''everybody was Kung Froome Eiking, those kicks were .......''
> 
> And I haven't even been drinking!


If that's your own lunacy, I shall award you 100 points in ProPunditry.

If I find out that you have nicked it from somewhere/one else, you are for the chop...


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## Buddfox (15 Sep 2017)

brommers said:


> Picture this: the 1-2-3 in the men's ITT Stefan Kung, Chris Froome and Odd Christian Eiking and the music ringing out when they step on the podium, ''everybody was Kung Froome Eiking, those kicks were .......''
> 
> And I haven't even been drinking!



That's pretty good...


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## Adam4868 (15 Sep 2017)

brommers said:


> Picture this: the 1-2-3 in the men's ITT Stefan Kung, Chris Froome and Odd Christian Eiking and the music ringing out when they step on the podium, ''everybody was Kung Froome Eiking, those kicks were .......''
> 
> And I haven't even been drinking!


I've got yer coat....


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## brommers (15 Sep 2017)

Marmion said:


> If that's your own lunacy, I shall award you 100 points in ProPunditry.
> 
> If I find out that you have nicked it from somewhere/one else, you are for the chop...



It's all my own work.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (15 Sep 2017)

brommers said:


> It's all my own work.


100 points!!!


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## speakingtoghosts (16 Sep 2017)

That final climb looks too steep for a heavy rouleur like Martin. It's hard to know how Froomey's legs will be after the Vuelta. Can see him being in imperious form or looking thoroughly worn out. I would make Dumoulin favourite - he's done nothing but prepare for this since the Giro - and probably put Froome at joint second with Rohan Dennis. 

Thoughts?


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## speakingtoghosts (16 Sep 2017)

I've done a preview here in case anyone is interested (:


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## brommers (16 Sep 2017)

Froome has *two* Olympic Bronze medals. People tend to forget London, particularly I suppose, because it was won by Bradley Wiggins. I don't think that Froome has entered this just to go along for the ride - his form will be tested in the TTT.


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## Milzy (16 Sep 2017)

When and what channel folks??


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## brommers (16 Sep 2017)

All three mens elite events are live on BBC and Eurosport
Sunday 17th - TTT
Wednesday 20th - ITT
Sunday 24th - Road Race


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## speakingtoghosts (16 Sep 2017)

Oh yeah so he has. I'll change that. Thanks for the correction, brommers..
Hope Froome can do it, as it would diversify his palmares a bit.. stop people from saying he was 'just a grand tour rider'.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (16 Sep 2017)

speakingtoghosts said:


> I've done a preview here in case anyone is interested (:


"Rarely in the history of the sport have we seen a rider with such pure talent in both the fundamental disciplines of grand tour riding"

Define "rarely"...


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## S-Express (16 Sep 2017)

Marmion said:


> Define "rarely"...



I would define 'rarely' in this context as 'not very rare'...


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## 400bhp (16 Sep 2017)

Ok pal, we get you have a blog. I read one article you linked to in another thread and it was mildly interesting.

Now this is a forum for talking about things vaguely representing cycling.

So in the future would you just mind posting your opinions or factual representations on here rather than on a 3rd party provider please.


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## 400bhp (16 Sep 2017)

You need to get that in the twittersphere @brommers


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## brommers (17 Sep 2017)

Not normally all that interested in TTs, but these are competitive on a testing course.


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## psmiffy (17 Sep 2017)

Spoiler: Womens TTT


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## brommers (17 Sep 2017)

psmiffy said:


> Spoiler: Womens TTT
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for that reminder @psmiffy - it's now a non-spoilers thread.


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## smutchin (17 Sep 2017)

Marmion said:


> Define "rarely"...



"I've not been following the sport that long so don't know any names pre-2000, and certainly haven't heard of Jacques Anquetil"


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## smutchin (17 Sep 2017)

Spoiler




View: https://youtu.be/lbFPxMo48AA






Spoiler



Didn't see the races today but very pleased to see that Sunweb did the double - not least because it shows that it is possible for a team to support both men's and women's squads and be competitive in both. Certain other superannuated men-only teams should take note.


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## brommers (18 Sep 2017)

Start List for mens U23 TT

https://d2o9doy8pqmlel.cloudfront.net/1505674515/itt-mu-startlist.pdf

Scott Davies must have a chance. Can't see Chris Lawless on the list.


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## gavroche (18 Sep 2017)

smutchin said:


> "I've not been following the sport that long so don't know any names pre-2000, and certainly haven't heard of Jacques Anquetil"


Do some research of cycling in the 60's and you will see that Jacques Anquetil was the dominant cyclist then. He was the first one to win 5 TdF and unbeatable on TTs.


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## rich p (18 Sep 2017)

smutchin said:


> "I've not been following the sport that long so don't know any names pre-2000, and certainly haven't heard of Jacques Anquetil"





gavroche said:


> Do some research of cycling in the 60's and you will see that Jacques Anquetil was the dominant cyclist then. He was the first one to win 5 TdF and unbeatable on TTs.



You might have missed Smutchin's point!


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## smutchin (18 Sep 2017)

It's possible.


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## mjr (18 Sep 2017)

brommers said:


> All three mens elite events are live on BBC and Eurosport
> Sunday 17th - TTT
> Wednesday 20th - ITT
> Sunday 24th - Road Race


Tuesday 19th 1430 red button - Women's elite ITT
Saturday 23rd 1220 red button, 1400 BBC one - women's elite road race
Because there's more to it than elite men.


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## mjr (18 Sep 2017)

mjr said:


> Tuesday 19th 1430 red button - Women's elite ITT
> Saturday 23rd 1220 red button, 1400 BBC one - women's elite road race
> Because there's more to it than elite men.


Full listing including Eurosport 1/2/Player at https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/tells-us-what-cycling-is-coming-up-on-tv.119943/post-4960047


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## brommers (18 Sep 2017)

Enjoying seeing the pictures of the city of Bergen - it's a fantastic looking place.


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## smutchin (18 Sep 2017)

brommers said:


> Enjoying seeing the pictures of the city of Bergen - it's a fantastic looking place.



Is that the city of Bergen in the country of Norway? </sherwen>


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## gavroche (18 Sep 2017)

rich p said:


> You might have missed Smutchin's point!


Not at all, just reminding him that cycling has been around for a long time with many great champions.


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## smutchin (18 Sep 2017)

@gavroche I'm not the one who needs telling that.


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## gavroche (18 Sep 2017)

smutchin said:


> @gavroche I'm not the one who needs telling that.


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## brommers (18 Sep 2017)

*Elite women’s individual time trial start order*
_Start time/name/nationality. Times given are local time._


15:35:00 STEPHENS Lauren USA
15:36:30 VAN DER BREGGEN Anna NED
15:38:00 GEREFIEL Selam Amha ETH
15:39:30 FASOI Varvara GRE
15:41:00 GAFINOVITZ Rotem ISR
15:42:30 YANG Qianyu HKG
15:44:00 JOVAISYTE Justina LTU
15:45:30 MATHIESEN Pernille DEN
15:47:00 FORCHINI Ramona SUI
15:48:30 THORSEN Thea NOR
15:50:00 LABOUS Juliette FRA
15:51:30 BARKER Elinor GBR
15:53:00 KAJIHARA Yumi JPN
15:54:30 MORZENTI Lisa ITA
15:56:00 SAARELAINEN Sari FIN
15:57:30 WORRACK Trixi GER
15:59:00 WILES Tayler USA
16:00:30 TCYMBALIUK Ksenia RUS
16:02:00 CHRISTOFOROU Antri CYP
16:03:30 GEBRU Eyeru Tesfoam ETH
16:05:00 TSAVARI Eleni Michalista GRE
16:06:30 LEE Jer Ling Serene SIN
16:08:00 BURNS Eileen IRL
16:09:30 SHAPIRA Omer ISR
16:11:00 HALBWACHS Aurelie MRI
16:12:30 VILLALON SANCHEZ Aranza Valentina CHI
16:14:00 SANTOYO PEREZ Brenda MEX
16:15:30 RITTER Martina AUT
16:17:00 SANABRIA SANCHEZ Ana Cristina COL
16:18:30 PANG Yao HKG
16:20:00 SHEKEL Olga UKR
16:21:30 OYARBIDE JIMENEZ Lourdes ESP
16:23:00 NERLO Aurela POL
16:24:30 TUSLAITE Daiva LTU
16:26:00 DYGERT Chloe USA
16:27:30 VAN VLEUTEN Annemiek NED
16:29:00 PAVLUKHINA Olena AZE
16:30:30 LUDWIG Cecilie Uttrup DEN
16:32:00 REUSSER Marlen SUI
16:33:30 HEINE Vita NOR
16:35:00 CORDON RAGOT Audrey FRA
16:36:30 CANUEL Karol-Ann CAN
16:38:00 BARNES Hannah GBR
16:39:30 DUYCK Ann-Sophie BEL
16:41:00 YONAMINE Eri JPN
16:42:30 MOOLMAN-PASIO Ashleigh RSA
16:44:00 VILLUMSEN Linda NZL
16:45:30 LONGO BORGHINI Elisa ITA
16:47:00 LEPISTO Lotta Pauliina FIN
16:48:30 BRENNAUER Lisa GER
16:50:00 ZABELINSKAYA Olga RUS
16:51:30 GARFOOT Katrin AUS
16:53:00 VAN DIJK Ellen NED
16:54:30 NEBEN Amber Leone USA
Read more at http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/l...e-trial-start-list-192429#XHx7z1cQbjXM1MRE.99


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## speakingtoghosts (18 Sep 2017)

400bhp said:


> Ok pal, we get you have a blog. I read one article you linked to in another thread and it was mildly interesting.
> 
> Now this is a forum for talking about things vaguely representing cycling.
> 
> So in the future would you just mind posting your opinions or factual representations on here rather than on a 3rd party provider please.



Fair enough.. I'll never to link to anything I've done again. I should stress, I only do it for my personal enjoyment and was just keen to get some responses from people who are heavily into the sport. I've nothing else to gain from advertising it. On reflection, I do see that it could be irritating. That said, I think the tone of some of the comments above is unnecessarily harsh. I'm new here and not familiar with the culture of the forum.

On the issue of '"Rarely in the history of the sport have we seen a rider with such pure talent...'

I appreciate that there have been others with comparable, if not better, combined tt and climbing skills. I have heard of Ancquetil in fact(!), and, for what it's worth, I have been following the sport all my life. I don't want to get into semantics or appear oppositional, but, seeing as someone did ask me to define it, 'rarely' does not mean 'never before' - it means 'not often', 'few times'... Not many riders in the history of the sport have had the kind of all-round ability in grand tours Froome has. That was never supposed to be a daring assertion; it seems pretty obvious from the statistics. Well, I don't doubt there's room to disagree with what I said. I'm not unduly proud of what I write, and I certainly don't consider myself an expert.

Thanks for your responses


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## Pro Tour Punditry (18 Sep 2017)

speakingtoghosts said:


> Thanks for your responses



Nice bit of quick editing


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## speakingtoghosts (18 Sep 2017)

not quick enough.. better late than never


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## speakingtoghosts (18 Sep 2017)

The atmosphere here is not all that friendly, guys, even if I did commit an accidental faux pas. 
It's worth remembering that behind the screens there are just normal people with feelings. Anyways, sorry to have been a pain.. I'm going to roll up my ignorance and trudge off in search of friendlier territory (:


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## S-Express (18 Sep 2017)

speakingtoghosts said:


> I have heard of Ancquetil in fact(!), and, for what it's worth, I have been following the sport all my life.


This bit ^^ ........


speakingtoghosts said:


> Not many riders in the history of the sport have had the kind of all-round ability in grand tours Froome has.


.......doesn't fit in with this bit ^^

Previous TdF winners from the mid.late 80s on, like Fignon, Lemond, Riis (yes, I know), Ulrich (yes, I know), Armstrong (yes, I know), Contador, Evans, Wiggins, Nibali - all climb well and TT well. In fact, it's difficult to win a grand tour without having a talent for both, for obvious reasons. Froome is the current man in form in GT/GC terms, but he is no different to any previous winners, in that respect.


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## speakingtoghosts (19 Sep 2017)

aaagghhhhh.. I thought I'd bowed out, but I'm tearing my hair out. I've just got to wade back in.

Let's just go back to the statement that drew disagreement/criticism - that's what I'm referring back to when I say 'kind of all-round ability':

_Rarely in the history of the sport have we seen a rider with such pure talent in both the fundamental disciplines of grand tour riding_

--'both the *fundamental disciplines *of grand tour riding' - yes, these are the key skills; yes, the great grand tour riders have almost all combined them pretty damn well. It's very obvious that being an all-rounder is key to winning grand tours! And that fact is implicit in what I said..

--'*such pure* talent' - not even 'pure'.. 'such pure'. All the guys listed above and many more besides have had talent in both disciplines.. many have had pure talent..
You could name Porte and Dumoulin too..

I'm talking about fine, fine degrees of a given quality. And what I'm saying is that, from the moment of his emergence in 2011, Froome has shown an extra special ability to function at the same time as both as a true _grimpeur_ and _rouleur_. On his day, he has been able to compete with and overcome specialists in both disciplines. 

That kind of talent is quite clearly not unprecedented or unequalled, and I never suggested it was. However, to throw Froome in with guys like Wiggins, Evans, Ulrich etc. is hard to justify. They were wonderful GT riders, but Froome is a level above in that discipline. Evans was a diesel who limited his losses as best he could in the hills and finally got a chance to win a (deserved) TdF after years of honest toil. Wiggins bent over backwards to lose enough weight and get himself up the climbs fast enough to live with the specialists. But Wiggins wasn't a true climber.. he didn't have a turn of speed to do damage on a climb. Froome nursed him up the climbs in 2012.

Froome won the yellow and the polkadot in the same edition (2015).. he once destroyed Quintana up Ventoux... and he's a double olympic bronze medallist in the ITT.
(I know it sounds like I'm loving on him, but he is, by his record (which, as yet, stands intact), indisputably one of the greatest ever.)

At the end of the day, these riders are separated by tiny margins.. they are/were all phenomenal all-rounders. But several of those you name have won half or less the TdFs Froome has accumulated and, viewed objectively, occupy a different tier of GT history.

For the time being, I stand by what I said.. in terms of combining _such pure_ talent as a climber and a tester, Froome is a rare phenomenon. Being rare probably helps you to become the fifth most successful rider in TdF history and do a double no-one in the modern era has achieved.. that's quite rare itself!

I might very well be wrong. What's bothering me is that, as things stand, people have been busy pouring scorn on things/ideas I never actually said!!


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## brommers (19 Sep 2017)

***POLITE REMINDER***
This thread is about Bergen 2017


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## rich p (19 Sep 2017)

speakingtoghosts said:


> aaagghhhhh.. I thought I'd bowed out, but I'm tearing my hair out. I've just got to wade back in.
> 
> Let's just go back to the statement that drew disagreement/criticism - that's what I'm referring back to when I say 'kind of all-round ability':
> 
> ...


Get over yourself and post your thoughts on the appropriate threads and you'll be more than welcome here.
Keep them a bit pithier too as our attention span is short


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## speakingtoghosts (19 Sep 2017)

Yeah..fair enough.. I can see why you'd say that.

The old members launched into this topic on this thread. I was responding (long-windedly). 
Perhaps move the whole thing could be lifted to a separate thread just in case anyone does want to add to it.

Back to Bergen.. I need some peaceful fjords in my life (:


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## brommers (19 Sep 2017)

*Elite men’s individual time trial start order*
_Start time/name/nationality. Times given are local time._

13:05:00 LUTSENKO Alexey (KAZ)
13:06:30 SUTTERLIN Jasha (GER)
13:08:00 WAIS Ahmad Badreddin (SYR)
13:09:30 KHAN Awais (PAK)
13:11:00 TAN Gabriel (SIN)
13:12:30 ZHUPA Eugert (ALB)
13:14:00 BRITTON Robert (CAN)
13:15:30 ZOIDL Riccardo (AUT)
13:17:00 HANSEN Lasse Norman (DEN)
13:18:30 RYBARUK Kostyantyn (UKR)
13:20:00 DE PLUS Laurens (BEL)

13:50:00 VANGSTAD Andreas (NOR)
13:51:30 COSTA Rui (POR)
13:53:00 HOLLENSTEIN Reto (SUI)
13:54:30 ROSSKOPF Joseph (USA)
13:56:00 EVTUSHENKO Alexander (RUS)
13:57:30 TACIAK Mateusz (POL)
13:59:00 TRATNIK Jan (SLO)
14:00:30 IZAGUIRRE INSAUSTI Gorka (ESP)
14:02:00 GEOGHEGAN HART Tao (GBR)
14:03:30 BIZHIGITOV Zhandos (KAZ)
14:05:00 ARNDT Nikias (GER)

14:35:00 JASER Nazir (SYR)
14:36:30 MUHAMMAD Arsalan Anjum (PAK)
14:38:00 TEOH Yi Peng (SIN)
14:39:30 BURROWES Jermaine (GUY)
14:41:00 MARTINS SANDOVAL Uri (MEX)
14:42:30 HALILAJ Redi (ALB)
14:44:00 CHEUNG King Lok (HKG)
14:45:30 ASADOV Elchin (AZE)
14:47:00 NDAYISENGA Valens (RWA)
14:48:30 LAMPAERT Yves (BEL)
14:50:00 KONOVALOVAS Ignatas (LTU)

15:20:00 TVETCOV Serghei (ROU)
15:21:30 SEPULVEDA Eduardo (ARG)
15:23:00 TESHOME Meron (ERI)
15:24:30 BOND Hamish (NZL)
15:26:00 HOULE Hugo (CAN)
15:27:30 SMIT Willem Jakobus (RSA)
15:29:00 POSTLBERGER Lukas (AUT)
15:30:30 MADSEN Martin Toft (DEN)
15:32:00 GRIVKO Andrey (UKR)
15:33:30 KELDERMAN Wilco (NED)
15:35:00 PANTANO GOMEZ Jarlinson (COL)

16:05:00 ROCHE Nicolas(IRL)
16:06:30 GRUZDEV Dmitriy (KAZ)
16:08:00 BARTA Jan (CZE)
16:09:30 HAGEN Edvald Boasson (NOR)
16:11:00 CAMPENAERTS Victor (BEL)
16:12:30 OLIVEIRA Nelson (POR)
16:14:00 GOUGEARD Alexis (FRA)
16:15:30 MOSCON Gianni (ITA)
16:17:00 LUDVIGSSON Tobias (SWE)
16:18:30 KUNG Stefan (SUI)
16:20:00 KIRYIENKA Vasil (BLR)

16:50:00 VAN GARDEREN Tejay (USA)
16:51:30 ZAKARIN Ilnur (RUS)
16:53:00 JUNGELS Bob (LUX)
16:54:30 BODNAR Maciej (POL)
16:56:00 ROGLIC Primoz (SLO)
16:57:30 DENNIS Rohan (AUS)
16:59:00 CASTROVIEJO Jonathan (ESP)
17:00:30 FROOME Chris (GBR)
17:02:00 DUMOULIN Tom (NED)
17:03:30 MARTIN Tony (GER)


Read more at http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/r...trial-start-list-2-289300#oAvFDr8jDtkC9Sxo.99


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## brommers (19 Sep 2017)

It looks pretty certain that the riders will be changing bikes in the mens ITT

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bike-change-could-be-key-to-worlds-tt-success/


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## Adam4868 (19 Sep 2017)

brommers said:


> It looks pretty certain that the riders will be changing bikes in the mens ITT
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bike-change-could-be-key-to-worlds-tt-success/


Seen that,i hope those that change bikes arent getting a push off.


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## brommers (19 Sep 2017)

Adam4868 said:


> Seen that,i hope those that change bikes arent getting a push off.


Apparently that's allowed, as long as it's on the matting area which covers the cobbles for safety reasons.


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## Adam4868 (19 Sep 2017)

Thats allright then......marginal gains and all that.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (19 Sep 2017)

speakingtoghosts said:


> * indisputably* one of the greatest ever.


you wanna bet


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## Crackle (19 Sep 2017)

speakingtoghosts said:


> The atmosphere here is not all that friendly, guys, even if I did commit an accidental faux pas.
> It's worth remembering that behind the screens there are just normal people with feelings. Anyways, sorry to have been a pain.. I'm going to roll up my ignorance and trudge off in search of friendlier territory (:


Stick around, just take the time to get a feel of the place. New contributions always welcome.


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## psmiffy (20 Sep 2017)

Weather is not looking the best - self preservation might be the factor that decides the outcome


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## mjr (20 Sep 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> Inrng preview of the ITT
> http://inrng.com/2017/09/world-championships-time-trial-preview-bergen-2017/


Ok pal, we get you have a blog. Now this is a forum for talking about things vaguely representing cycling. So in the future would you just mind posting your opinions or factual representations on here rather than on a 3rd party provider please.


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## psmiffy (20 Sep 2017)

A gorgeous day in Bergen - For Bergen that is


Dogtrousers said:


> Inrng preview of the ITT
> http://inrng.com/2017/09/world-championships-time-trial-preview-bergen-2017/



Thanks for posting that


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## mjr (20 Sep 2017)

speakingtoghosts said:


> Fair enough.. I'll never to link to anything I've done again.


I think it's fine to link it sometimes but you should give a bit of a summary here too. Someone posting links with pretty much no contribution to the discussion is annoying and the "Forum Guidelines and Rules" (which you should have read during sign-up, so in a way "new here" isn't an excuse) are pretty clear that naked self-promotion is unwelcome, whether or not you're directly profiting from it.



speakingtoghosts said:


> I'm going to roll up my ignorance and trudge off in search of friendlier territory (:


Flouncing would be a bit of an overreaction and I doubt you'll find many forums that tolerate linkspam well.


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## smutchin (20 Sep 2017)

S-Express said:


> Previous TdF winners from the mid.late 80s on, like Fignon, Lemond, Riis (yes, I know), Ulrich (yes, I know), Armstrong (yes, I know), Contador, Evans, Wiggins, Nibali - all climb well and TT well. In fact, it's difficult to win a grand tour without having a talent for both, for obvious reasons. Froome is the current man in form in GT/GC terms, but he is no different to any previous winners, in that respect.



Thinking about this, Cuddles* was arguably even more of a genuine all-rounder than Froome - he was strong in time trials and mountain stages, and was even competitive in the punchy stages against one-day specialists like Gilbert. Who knows what he could have achieved if he'd ever had a really strong team to back him like Froome does...

Also, which is particularly relevant to this thread, he was World Road Race Champion too.

I'd love to see Froome really going for it in the road race this year. With that final climb, it's not beyond the realms of possibility - he's got the chops for a punchy finish, as he showed on the Mur de Huy stage in the 2015 Tour when he was pipped on the line by Rodriguez.

*only using his nickname to avoid having it autoconverted into a link


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## smutchin (20 Sep 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> But Froome isn't riding the road race is he? Or have I got muddled?



Not sure.

In any case, I just realised that the road race doesn't actually finish on the climb, so that makes a Froome win unlikely anyway.


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## screenman (20 Sep 2017)

Have I missed the bit about us having a new world champion. What a result, just shows that cross is good training.


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## Buddfox (20 Sep 2017)

screenman said:


> Have I missed the bit about us having a new world champion. What a result, just shows that cross is good training.



It's in the Spoilers thread. Don't worry, you're not the only one scratching their head as to why we need two...


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## S-Express (20 Sep 2017)

screenman said:


> Have I missed the bit about us having a new world champion. What a result, just shows that cross is good training.



I posted the same yesterday - and was immediately pounced upon by people who didn't want to know the result. Which is baffling. A bit like supporting a football team and then not caring what the score is.


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## Adam4868 (20 Sep 2017)

S-Express said:


> I posted the same yesterday - and was immediately pounced upon by people who didn't want to know the result. Which is baffling. A bit like supporting a football team and then not caring what the score is.


Pounced on is a overreaction,its nothing like your analogy football scores.Im usually at work during the day so i watch the highlights at night.Anything with "no spoilers" on i tend not to look at if i can control my excitement.As i said at the time it was no big deal.I had a cry stamped my feet and got over it.


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## Beebo (20 Sep 2017)

brommers said:


> Apparently that's allowed, as long as it's on the matting area which covers the cobbles for safety reasons.


I know this is a non spoiler thread but this isn't going to ruin anyone's enjoyment. There was an issue today with pushing beyond the mat. And the bike change seemed fairly pointless bearing in mind the eventual winners.


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## smutchin (20 Sep 2017)

Beebo said:


> And the bike change seemed fairly pointless bearing in mind the eventual winners.



The winner didn't change his bike, did he?


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## brommers (21 Sep 2017)

Does anyone know whether the provisional start lists are available yet for the road races?


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## 400bhp (21 Sep 2017)

Beebo said:


> I know this is a non spoiler thread but this isn't going to ruin anyone's enjoyment. There was an issue today with pushing beyond the mat. And the bike change seemed fairly pointless bearing in mind the eventual winners.



Actually I think the bike change worked in the second places favour.


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## Adam4868 (21 Sep 2017)

.


brommers said:


> Does anyone know whether the provisional start lists are available yet for the road races?


Not seen anything yet,
http://www.cyclingstage.com/world-championships-2017-bergen/riders-road-race-wc-2017/


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## Adam4868 (22 Sep 2017)

brommers said:


> Does anyone know whether the provisional start lists are available yet for the road races?


http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/racing/world-championships-mens-road-race-start-list-286225


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