# 400k audax



## Dogtrousers (15 Aug 2016)

I’m beginning to start thinking/dreaming about my next challenge. Stepping up from my 334k ride. Probably next year. Possibly 400k.

So maybe a 400k audax? Well, I’m not sure whether I’d want to do an organised Audax ...

Potential benefits?

Company on the road? I can live without that, as I really need to control my own pace. And even in the unlikely event of someone doing exactly the same pace as me, do I really care? Not much, to be honest.
Stuff/facilities provided at controls? I think, with planning, I can live without that too. Going beyond 400, where there is a real need to have a sleep stop, I could see the advantage of having somewhere to lie down and a secure parking spot, but I’d be planning to do the 400 in one go.
Formal recognition from AUK? While intending absolutely no disrespect to AUK whatsoever, that doesn’t really interest me.
Motivation? Need to finish a committed event. Maybe.

On the other hand I can see downsides:


Logistical nightmare getting to/from the start. Can’t just roll out of bed and start.
Loss of control of the route. The Audax would probably be devised by a hill-addicted sadist. Not what I need if pushing my limits of distance.
Confusing burden of proof-of-passage and information controls and stuff like that – not much of a burden I grant but something that I could happily live without.
Loss of flexibility of scheduling. Can’t say “oh, I have a cold this week. I’ll do it next week”.

So … people who have done 400k audaxes … is there any benefit to doing a formal audax that I’m not seeing?


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## jefmcg (16 Aug 2016)

I've only done the same 400km audax, the Severn Across, twice. Ine finished and one DNF. It might have had the first one or two manned controls, but the rest were open where you could get a receipt. The company is pretty spread out on a 400km, so while you might recognise a fellow traveller on the road, and chat briefly at a cafe, you are likely to spend most of the day on your own.

So it's up to you. I find the fixed date (no rolling over and going back to sleep) means I actually do it, and the deadline means I don't tarry at the last stop. On the other hand, the 300 I did from my home (346km back to my front door) was a much easier day. Started earlier, no overheads at all. You don't really need any support on a 300. On a 400, unless you are fast, you are going to want a stop after midnight. So that can take some planning. Finding the backway into a motorway services (Membury on the Severn Across) or quietly taking your bike up the elevator to the Costa at Gatwick are two examples.


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## Dogtrousers (16 Aug 2016)

Thanks for the insight @jefmcg
My rough plan would be: Get a full nights sleep, start 7am. Longish stop somewhere in the evening. Finish the following morning, taking maybe 24 hr.


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## tatr (17 Aug 2016)

I think there are a few deliberately flat Audax UK 400s.

There's also the national 400 (with extra cake and support) which is explicitly designed to ease riders into 400s for the first time.


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## iandg (17 Aug 2016)

I did my first (and only) 400 as a DIY. 1st attempt I DNFd as weather was awful. Successful ride I had a real downer at between 200 and 250km but managed to get to my next control, rest and eat and got thro' it. It would have been good to have had others around at that point for support, but an event wasn't an option because of where I live.


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## Dogtrousers (17 Aug 2016)

tatr said:


> I think there are a few deliberately flat Audax UK 400s.
> 
> There's also the national 400 (with extra cake and support) which is explicitly designed to ease riders into 400s for the first time.


Thanks. 

So, it seems that the National 400 is hosted in different places round the country. The last one had 7 manned controls. I guess I'll have to wait until the location of the next one is announced. If its very North or very vertical, or both, then no. Otherwise, perhaps.


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## mcshroom (17 Aug 2016)

If you don't go for an official ride, at least go for a DIY audax. It then gives you the fixed date @jefmcg mentioned. With the new DIY by GPS option it's not much more difficult to organise than plotting the route.

As to calendar events. Some are hilly. Others, like the Lincoln 400 are very flat. Over that distance the field spreads out so you only see others occasionally unless a group of you choose to ride together.

Anyway. Good luck with the 400 however you choose to ride it


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## Dogtrousers (17 Aug 2016)

Thanks. 

Managing competing things in life may well make the date more or less fixed. I guess I just need to keep an eye on aukweb.net and see if one pops up that takes my fancy, isn't uphill all the way, and isn't stupidly awkward to get to/from.


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## Ajax Bay (15 Sep 2016)

A vote for Mark Rigby's Brevet Cymru (405km: Chepstow > Hay > Buith Wells > Llandovery (West End Cafe) > Tregaron > New Quay (on the coast! good cafe(s)) > Llandovery (West End Cafe) > dark on the A40 to Crickhowell (Llangattock, village hall at 355km where food offered and one could take a few hours rest if desired (and ahead of time)) > Chepstow (via Usk). Most controls (cafes) had a stamp. One needed a coop/spar shop receipt, you'd need food/drink there anyway. That's all 'burden of proof etc etc v light touch.
Think he takes over the Chepstow Start/Arrivee (community centre) the evening before so can go down there late Fri for a 0600 Sat start. Easily rideable from/to Bristol Parkway across the Severn Bridge and leave a bag at the hall.
Gets a good crowd so a good chance of riding with others for at least part of the time (about 50% for me last April) which offers a little variety and a bit of shelter if any wind's adverse.
I think a set date's an advantage not a 'downside' but I can see that YMMV.


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## Ian H (15 Sep 2016)

The Brevet Cymru is a good route. It 'goes somewhere' (not aimlessly round in circles), and you see the sea. It's also one of the oldest events in the AUK calendar.


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## Banjo (16 Sep 2016)

One benefit of doing an audax is that the route has been well ridden so you wont get any surprises where what looked like a road on the map is a rutted farm track in reality.


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## Dogtrousers (16 Sep 2016)

@Ajax Bay 

Thanks for the suggestion. One day, maybe, but the brevet Cymru has the major disadvantage that its too far from London. Logistically it would be very difficult indeed. I don't think it would be sensible to add extra miles by riding to the start. If I had to drive I'd need somewhere to sleep before and after ...

Also I used to live near Abergavenny, so I have first hand experience of the local terrain. Lovely, but not flat.

I'm upping my long rides from 100miles to 200k and possibly a bit more next year, and I'm leaning towards doing a big tour of Sussex/Kent, sticking to the flat bits as much as poss.

Start from home and get to see the sea too!

But I also have half an eye on the auk site for what pops up.

I


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## jefmcg (18 Sep 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> Thanks for the suggestion. One day, maybe, but the brevet Cymru has the major disadvantage that its too far from London. Logistically it would be very difficult indeed. I don't think it would be sensible to add extra miles by riding to the start. If I had to drive I'd need somewhere to sleep before and after ...


I'd really recommend the Severn Across (see above). It starts from Chalfont St Peter, just outside the M25 and coincidently goes to Chepstow. It's great casually saying to a neighbour "I cycle to Wales and back yesterday. Last stop is a motorway services where the only things open are the petrol station and a Starbucks ,but still an excellent ride.


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## Dogtrousers (18 Sep 2016)

jefmcg said:


> I'd really recommend the Severn Across (see above). It starts from Chalfont St Peter, just outside the M25 and coincidently goes to Chepstow. It's great casually saying to a neighbour "I cycle to Wales and back yesterday. Last stop is a motorway services where the only things open are the petrol station and a Starbucks ,but still an excellent ride.


It's the only AUK event I know of at the moment that's suitable. I guess I need to wait to see if others pop up. For example, where is the National 400 going to be in 2017?

I've also been working on/daydreaming of a nice London - Sussex/Kent coast - London loop route.

Incidentally Severn Across seems to have been rebranded as London Wales London Unless I've got things muddled up. I think they are stretching credibility just a bit by calling Gerrards Cross "London". It's not London by any definition that I can think of.


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## jefmcg (18 Sep 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> Incidentally Severn Across seems to have been rebranded as London Wales London Unless I've got things muddled up. I think they are stretching credibility just a bit by calling Gerrards Cross "London". It's not London by any definition that I can think of.


Yup, that's definitely it. The name is new for 2017.

Or up your goal a little, and try Windsor-Chester-Windsor - though I think that won't be run next year.


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## srw (18 Sep 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> It's the only AUK event I know of at the moment that's suitable. I guess I need to wait to see if others pop up. For example, where is the National 400 going to be in 2017?
> 
> I've also been working on/daydreaming of a nice London - Sussex/Kent coast - London loop route.
> 
> Incidentally Severn Across seems to have been rebranded as London Wales London Unless I've got things muddled up. I think they are stretching credibility just a bit by calling Gerrards Cross "London". It's not London by any definition that I can think of.


And Chalfont St Peter isn't Gerrard's Cross! It's about as London as the start of LEL, and its closest train station is the tube.


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## Dogtrousers (18 Sep 2016)

srw said:


> And Chalfont St Peter isn't Gerrard's Cross! It's about as London as the start of LEL, and its closest train station is the tube.


I chose Gerrard's Cross as the nearest biggish place. I think it's a bit of a cheek describing anywhere outside the M25 as London. If they wanted to sex it up a bit then what about "Slough Wales Slough". That would be uber sexy and a bit more accurate.


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## mcshroom (18 Sep 2016)

How about the Asparagus & Strawberries? It has a 9am start from Manningtree, the start time I'm pretty certain was designed so Londoners could get there on the train 
http://www.aukweb.net/events/detail/16-901/


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## jefmcg (18 Sep 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> I chose Gerrard's Cross as the nearest biggish place. I think it's a bit of a cheek describing anywhere outside the M25 as London. If they wanted to sex it up a bit then what about "Slough Wales Slough". That would be uber sexy and a bit more accurate.


Surely CStPWCStP - ok, that may be the worst acronym ever.

I've heard good things about A&S. Maybe next year ......?


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## srw (18 Sep 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> I chose Gerrard's Cross as the nearest biggish place. I think it's a bit of a cheek describing anywhere outside the M25 as London. If they wanted to sex it up a bit then what about "Slough Wales Slough". That would be uber sexy and a bit more accurate.


People are always telling me I live in London - because Amersham is on the TfL network.


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## Ian H (18 Sep 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> Incidentally Severn Across seems to have been rebranded as London Wales London


There seems to be a category error there.

Chalfont-Chepstow-Chalfont would be better: "Cha-Che-Cha" or "CCC".


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## jefmcg (18 Sep 2016)

Ian H said:


> There seems to be a category error there.
> 
> Chalfont-Chepstow-Chalfont would be better: "Cha-Che-Cha" or "CCC".


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## Dogtrousers (18 Sep 2016)

I've just noted the date of NotQuiteLondon-JustAboutWales-NotQuiteLondon. I can't do it (and stay married).


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## Ian H (18 Sep 2016)

There'll be plenty of others. BRMs have to be published by the end of September. BRs can follow later.


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## tatr (19 Sep 2016)

I rode part of the Severn Across route this weekend and it was OK. Would have been fine with fresh legs but it was definitely rolling rather than flat.

How about riding back from the Dunwich Dynamo @Dogtrousers - its a c.380k round trip so you only have to add in a small diversion to turn it into a 400k, you get a lot of company on the night leg, and the route is nice and flat.


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## Ian H (20 Sep 2016)

Apart from the 2013 National 400, which was partially nicked from @vorsprung, I've never run a 400. Nor anything over 600. But Vorsprung's Avalon Sunrise is more benign than the National and a very good ride. 

It's a few years since I rode the Severn Across (think I once did it on fixed), but that was a decent route as well.


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## jefmcg (27 Sep 2016)

Cha-Che-Cha has it's own website!

https://londonwaleslondon.com/


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## ianrauk (27 Sep 2016)

jefmcg said:


> Cha-Che-Cha has it's own website!
> 
> https://londonwaleslondon.com/




Hmm... interested


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## LiamFitz (27 Sep 2016)

srw said:


> And Chalfont St Peter isn't Gerrard's Cross! It's about as London as the start of LEL, and its closest train station is the tube.


 I thought I could call www.londonwaleslondon.com London on the same basis that Paris Roubaix and Paris Brest Paris claim to start in Paris! Hope the tongue in cheek playing with geography doesn't put you off!


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## srw (27 Sep 2016)

LiamFitz said:


> I thoughcould call www.londonwaleslondon.com London on the same basis that Paris Roubaix and Paris Brest Paris claim to start in Paris! Hope the tongue in cheek playing with geography doesn't put you off!


No, but the 400k does. My one and only audax was a 100k from Chalfont a few years ago. At the moment even that distance is too much.


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## Dogtrousers (27 Sep 2016)

LiamFitz said:


> I thought I could call www.londonwaleslondon.com London on the same basis that Paris Roubaix and Paris Brest Paris claim to start in Paris! Hope the tongue in cheek playing with geography doesn't put you off!


Unortunately the closeness of the date to my wife's birthday rules me out. Good luck with it. I like the website.


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## jefmcg (27 Sep 2016)

LiamFitz said:


> I thought I could call www.londonwaleslondon.com London on the same basis that Paris Roubaix and Paris Brest Paris claim to start in Paris! Hope the tongue in cheek playing with geography doesn't put you off!


I think everyone is being playful. I certainly was. While LWL isn't precise geographically, it really describes how it feels. The start is an easy cycle from the M25. However, as i proved last year, the arrivée (finish, same place) is a long way from london.

View: https://www.strava.com/activities/301702021/embed/a3e0b4f7904803d9b7d9c989dc04e1c83f509d54

(30 km home took me nearly 3 hours and as you can see, I chose a rather indirect route)


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## redfalo (22 Oct 2016)

when possible, I do prefer calendar events. being on the RRtY treadmill means doing a fair bit of DIY rides, and the benefits of having company on the road as well as getting to know other parts of the country for me outweighs the organisational faff and higher costs of calendar rides. 

AsI find 400s by far the toughest distance, I don't fancy doing them on my own. Group DIY surely is an alternative. 

LWL does sound pretty good but date won't work for me either. Plan is to do the Strawberry and Asparagus again. Logistically it's easier than LWL (at least from North London, due to later start), and the route is relatively flat. 2015 edition was still the hardest ride so far for me. I completely blew up on last 70km and crawled back to Manningtree.


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## Ajax Bay (16 Nov 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> the Brevet Cymru has the major disadvantage that it's too far from London. Logistically it would be very difficult indeed. I don't think it would be sensible to add extra miles by riding to the start.


As far as logistics are concerned, as I said, pretty sure that one year some of the London audaxers travelled down by train (to Bristol Parkway) that Friday evening, cycled across to Chepstow (25km), kipped that night (after a curry), and were there rested and ready for the 6am start. The optional late night early morning control/stop was near Crickhowell at 360km (looks like it might be Bwlch (350km) next year - RT takeover/rebrand to "Bryan Chapman's Wales Warm-Up"). Some rode straight through: I chose to try to get a few hours (and failed, quality-wise) but left at 4:15 to catch a lovely dawn climbing over the ridge back from Usk to Chepstow. For you an hour or two rest at the Bulwark Community Centre (or much longer if you rode 400 straight) and then a pootle back across the Severn Bridge to Bristol Parkway.
Having said all that, next year it is on the 'day that must be avoided' (by the OP).


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## PpPete (22 Nov 2016)

Damn - now it's BR the permitted time is 20 minutes shorter ! (As BRM Brevet Cymru it was 27 hours and needed all of that a couple of years ago when the weather was  &  resulting in )


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## Dogtrousers (22 Nov 2016)

PpPete said:


> Damn - now it's BR the permitted time is 20 minutes shorter ! (As BRM Brevet Cymru it was 27 hours and needed all of that a couple of years ago when the weather was  &  resulting in )


There's something that's endearing, fascinating and annoying all at the same time about Audaxing and its endless acronyms. 
I've just been off to the FAQ.
A BRM is a _Brevet de Randonneurs Mondiaux _ and a BR is _Brevet de Randonneurs _So what's the difference? Well, the FAQ tells us: _Whilst not dissimilar in conduct to BRM events the speed limits are subtly different. _Ah. (Nods sagely). Not dissimilar eh? Right, I see. (Fails to keep straight face and bursts out in hysterical laughter).

By the way, having given it quite a bit of thought, and looked at the routes and logistics, it's almost certain that if I do attempt 400k next year, (and there's no guarantee that I will), I'll use the "roll out of bed and start right outside my front door" method, rather than doing an organised event.


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## Rustybucket (22 Nov 2016)

I'm tempted by this, are places still available?


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## Ajax Bay (22 Nov 2016)

Rustybucket said:


> I'm tempted by this, are places still available?


If by 'this' you mean "Bryan Chapman's Wales Warm-Up" on 29 April, just go to the link and enter. Over 100 rode last year (iirc), in benign conditions. But a 400 is probably best preceded by a 200, a little earlier in the season. Have a browse of the calendar.


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## mcshroom (22 Nov 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> There's something that's endearing, fascinating and annoying all at the same time about Audaxing and its endless acronyms.
> I've just been off to the FAQ.
> A BRM is a _Brevet de Randonneurs Mondiaux _ and a BR is _Brevet de Randonneurs _So what's the difference? Well, the FAQ tells us: _Whilst not dissimilar in conduct to BRM events the speed limits are subtly different. _Ah. (Nods sagely). Not dissimilar eh? Right, I see. (Fails to keep straight face and bursts out in hysterical laughter).
> 
> By the way, having given it quite a bit of thought, and looked at the routes and logistics, it's almost certain that if I do attempt 400k next year, (and there's no guarantee that I will), I'll use the "roll out of bed and start right outside my front door" method, rather than doing an organised event.



BR - UK event sticking just to AUK rules
BRM - International event which uses some (marginally stricter in most cases) rules set by the world organisation in France.

The biggest difference tends to be that in BR events you get 15km/h for every km of the ride, whereas for BRMs any distance over the 200/300/400 etc. gets no extra time. It's a bit like the difference between a British Cycling event and a UCI one.

On the Brevet Cymru, I'm surprised it's got shorter when switching to BR from BRM. I've never seen that happen before.


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## Rustybucket (23 Nov 2016)

Ajax Bay said:


> If by 'this' you mean "Bryan Chapman's Wales Warm-Up" on 29 April, just go to the link and enter. Over 100 rode last year (iirc), in benign conditions. But a 400 is probably best preceded by a 200, a little earlier in the season. Have a browse of the calendar.



Thanks!

Just looked on the London Wales London website. Looks a good ride. 
Im going to enter today - once Ive confirmed with work that I can have the Monday off to recover.

Do people tend to do 400km in one go, or try and have a sleep in-between? The longest ride ive done so far is about 270km


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## PpPete (23 Nov 2016)

Rustybucket said:


> Thanks!
> Do people tend to do 400km in one go, or try and have a sleep in-between? The longest ride ive done so far is about 270km


All tactics are equally valid. I usually ride through on a 400, but absolutely have to have a sleep on a 600, there's some that will ride 600 without sleep, others feel they would be unsafe without sleep over the last 50km of a 400 so have to stop & sleep at the penultimate control (Bwlch).


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## Ajax Bay (23 Nov 2016)

Rustybucket said:


> Do people tend to do 400km in one go, or try and have a sleep in-between? The longest ride ive done so far is about 270km


LWL should be good. Supporting what @PpPete said, but it also depends on your speed. These 400s normally start at 6am so you have till 9am (following) to reach the 'arrivee'. The speedier merchants will bang the first 350 out in 15-16 hours (say) so it makes sense to crack on. Middle of the road people will make the 350 (say) control (the last one on the Brevet Cymru) after midnight and a few hours rest then allows departure at dawn (say). The 'full value' element will not have much time to sleep as they'll need to push on after some food (breakfast?) and an hours rest. A rider's inclination to ride through the dark hours will also be a factor, as will the weather at the time or forecast.


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## Rustybucket (24 Nov 2016)

Thanks for the advice!

To make things more interesting ill probably have to ride from home to the start and back again - so thats an extra 70ish Km on top. Ill probably aim to have a sleep, as it sounds like there are spaces available at the controls to do this?


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## PpPete (24 Nov 2016)

Rustybucket said:


> Thanks for the advice!
> 
> To make things more interesting ill probably have to ride from home to the start and back again - so thats an extra 70ish Km on top. Ill probably aim to have a sleep, as it sounds like there are spaces available at the controls to do this?


You'll see a few people catching forty winks in the armchairs at the cafe in Llandovery, but there's nowhere to lie down.
There was certainly floor space when the last control was at Llangattock, but it's a different location(?) this time and certainly a different organiser. However IME he is very solicitous of the needs of his riders. Just don't take the p**s.


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## jefmcg (24 Nov 2016)

Rustybucket said:


> Thanks for the advice!
> 
> To make things more interesting ill probably have to ride from home to the start and back again - so thats an extra 70ish Km on top. Ill probably aim to have a sleep, as it sounds like there are spaces available at the controls to do this?


LWL? No, assuming it isn't changing fundamentally from Severn Across, it's old name. Most** of the controls are "commercial" That means you stop in a town and get a receipt with the time on it. The last control - the one you might nap in - is around the 300km mark, and is Membury Services on the M4. You can stop at the petrol station for a chocolate bar, or go right inside with your bike. Unfortunately they have opened a Starbucks downstairs, so the rest of the services is looked up. So all you have are toilets and a Starbucks. That being said, after failing to drink the awful coffee, I folded my arms and got 1/2 hour or so sleep at a table, which was enough to get me home with 10 minutes to spare!

There is a room available for people to sleep the night before, just bring a sleeping bag. So you can get some kip there at the end of the ride, assuming you are not a full value rider. They lock up the place after the last rider gets in so if you take the full allotted time you will get a coffee and some food, but no sleep.

You can see upthread my wobble home on no sleep just upthread a little.

**Edit: just checked 2015's route sheet. All the controls were commercial. The first one was manned, the rest you looked after yourself. However, it 2015 it was £7.50, now it's £23 (still cheap). Liam is an honest man, so I expect you will be getting more for your money so there may be more formal controls. I wouldn't expect mattresses at any of them on a 400.


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## Dayvo (24 Nov 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> By the way, having given it quite a bit of thought, and looked at the routes and logistics, it's almost certain that if I do attempt 400k next year, (and there's no guarantee that I will), I'll use the "roll out of bed and start right outside my front door" method, rather than doing an organised event.



Just seen this thread, and hats off to you for upping your distance (I'll stop at my 334 km).

How I would plan it would be to find a good (flattish, quietish, nice scenery) stretch of 200 km from home (and a hotel, B&B there or thereabouts), then turn around and come back the same way. 

Taking an (optimistic) average of 20 kph, then you'll take 20 hours to complete (barring the unforeseen). If you did it mid summer then you'd have the maximum amount of light. You might want a 6-8 hour stop/sleep, so two shifts of 10 hours - say 11:00 to 21;00 and 06: to 16:00 shouldn't be too bad (and you'd still have 'back-up' hours come delays, mechanicals, bad weather etc.).

Apart from some tools and spares, phone and wallet, a toothbrush and maybe another pair of bib shorts (unless you could get them washed at your overnight stop), you'd be travelling very light.

Must say, this has given me something to ponder for myself, but I _hope_ it doesn't develop into something I *WILL* regret later.


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## jefmcg (24 Nov 2016)

Dayvo said:


> Taking an (optimistic) average of 20 kph, then you'll take 20 hours to complete (barring the unforeseen). If you did it mid summer then you'd have the maximum amount of light. You might want a 6-8 hour stop/sleep, so two shifts of 10 hours - say 11:00 to 21;00 and 06: to 16:00 shouldn't be too bad (and you'd still have 'back-up' hours come delays, mechanicals, bad weather etc.).


Just saying, this wouldn't quite be a 400 in the audax sense. You'd need to finish a little before 2pm to make the minimum speed requirement (15kph == 26hours 40 minutes). So 7 hours sleep, not 9. 

I don't think anyone rides LWL like this (but what would I know? I was the last rider to arrive at the penultimate control)


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## Dogtrousers (24 Nov 2016)

Thanks @Dayvo for your thoughts. 

I think I'd approach it like I did my Godwin ride this summer. Make sure I have plenty of daylight and plenty of miles in my legs. Check the weather forecast before starting. Start early in the morning, but not so early that I start short of sleep (5-ish). Have a sit down meal in the afternoon. Have another sit down meal in the evening. Ride through the night to the end. Arrive home early the next morning (say 6am - 8am). 

However, the idea of booking into a B&B for a few hours for a shower and a lie down is worth considering, but on the other hand it may just result in stress and faffing that I could do without.

Anyway, this is getting a bit hubristic and ahead of myself. I may not do it at all. Or it may be 350k, or something.

@jefmcg this may not fit in with the Audax rules and regs, but - and I mean absolutely no disrespect to Audax UK, they organise some fine rides - I'm not really bothered. I wouldn't be riding to any time limits or anything like that. The reason for the thread was to explore the possibility of using an Audax to do a big ride like this, but the big ride itself is the objective, not the Audax aspect.


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## jefmcg (24 Nov 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> @jefmcg this may not fit in with the Audax rules and regs, but - and I mean absolutely no disrespect to Audax UK, they organise some fine rides - I'm not really bothered. I wouldn't be riding to any time limits or anything like that. The reason for the thread was to explore the possibility of using an Audax to do a big ride like this, but the big ride itself is the objective, not the Audax aspect.



Absolutely, I understand. Set yourself a challenge, then meet it.

A philosophical point. If i followed @Dayvo's timetable above, I'd call it back-to-back 200s. Not that that is anything to sniff at: back-to-back 200s or imperial centuries are worthwhile goals.

What do people think makes it a single ride, rather than 2? I'm feeling that an kip on a motorway service couch or even a couple of hours on an inflatable mattress can happen mid ride, but 9 hours in a B&B would tell me to turn off strava and restart in the morning.

@Dogtrousers, do consider the idea of a 350. I did one accidentally a few years ago, it it was a pretty ok experience. It took me about 20 hours elapsed, so I left my front door at 6 am and arrived home around 2. A long day, but not impossibly so. A little sleep in and I was ready for Sunday. And you are almost certainly faster than me.

If you do a 400,you want to find somewhere open between 300 & 350, eg all night cafe, Costa@ Gatwick or the aforementioned services.


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## tatr (25 Nov 2016)

jefmcg said:


> The last control - the one you might nap in - is around the 300km mark, and is Membury Services on the M4.



The LWL service station control has been replaced with a slightly better option nearby, which I think is part of the reason for the price rise.


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## jiberjaber (25 Nov 2016)

@Dogtrousers have you considered doing the first part of the LEL route up to Thirsk and then getting the train home? (I'm sure you said you were North London?) @redfalo and a few others did the reverse by getting a train to Thirsk and riding down.... pick one that matches the desired tail wind as the Fens would be hell with a headwind!

I did it in October, setting off around 18:30 from Chelmsford and riding the fens through the night and enjoying Humber Bridge at lunch time, arriving Thirsk after around 25 hours of riding. I wrote a description of the ride on my strava record for it (plus a load of pictures):

https://www.strava.com/activities/757349162



> *Home2Home Audax*
> 468km / 290 miles from Chelmsford to Marton (Middlesbrough) in one ride, 22h40m of riding time over a total duration of 28h46m
> 
> As a backup plan for half term, I pulled together a 400km DIY audax based on the LEL route for 2017, modifying the early section to start from Chelmsford and follow some familiar audax routes out to intercept the LEL. It’s just a ‘short ride’ from Thirsk so I noticed I could kill two birds with one stone and realise another ambition to cycle from home in Chelmsford to home near Middlesbrough – so Home2home was born.
> ...


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## smutchin (25 Nov 2016)

jefmcg said:


> LWL? No, assuming it isn't changing fundamentally from Severn Across, it's old name. Most** of the controls are "commercial" That means you stop in a town and get a receipt with the time on it.



The Chepstow and Membury controls are now fully supported, rather than commercial controls. For me, this just adds to the many good reasons to do what was already an excellent ride. 

Eating a pork pie on the forecourt of Tesco's petrol station in Chepstow feels like a bit of a poor reward for cycling all the way to Wales. And last time I did SA, I found Membury Services hugely dispiriting, at a time when I was really in need of a bit of tlc to give me that boost I needed for the final run back to Chalfont. Ultimately, I rode through without sleep but I was in a sorry state by the time I got to the finish at around 3am.


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## Rustybucket (25 Nov 2016)

Does the LWL sell out? Should I book it this weekend?


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## jefmcg (25 Nov 2016)

Rustybucket said:


> Does the LWL sell out? Should I book it this weekend?


It sold out in January 2015, but that was a PBP so you needed a 400 to qualify. He managed to extend the field so everyone on the waiting list got in and a few others. 

With the new name I think anything is possible. It's getting a lot of buzz, but I am sure there will be more room than previous years for this reason.

(amusing aside - I checked my emails to see when it sold out in 2015. I was exchanging emails with Liam to see if I could get in despite it having just sold out and he said "the place is there for you so don’t fall off your bike rushing". So two days later - though not rushing - I fell of my bike and broke my clavicle  )


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## Rustybucket (25 Nov 2016)

I'll enter tomorrow 

Thanks for the heads up!


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## Dayvo (27 Nov 2016)

jiberjaber said:


> @Dogtrousers have you considered doing the first part of the LEL route up to Thirsk and then getting the train home? (I'm sure you said you were North London?) @redfalo and a few others did the reverse by getting a train to Thirsk and riding down.... pick one that matches the desired tail wind as the Fens would be hell with a headwind!
> 
> I did it in October, setting off around 18:30 from Chelmsford and riding the fens through the night and enjoying Humber Bridge at lunch time, arriving Thirsk after around 25 hours of riding. I wrote a description of the ride on my strava record for it (plus a load of pictures):
> 
> https://www.strava.com/activities/757349162




Excellent write-up, JJ! And great achievement doing the ride. 

It's not just the distance, but also the time in the saddle, AND the games in your mind.


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## Dogtrousers (29 Nov 2016)

Oh dear. I appear to have done something very stupid indeed, and very much against my own "keep it simple, keep it flat" advice. 

I've just signed up for LWL.

I mentioned the event to Mrs Trousers and obtained a free pass (with strings attached). All this talk of improved controls made me think that this might be a good way of attempting this, provided I can somehow get to the start line at the right time - need to book a travelodge or similar. 

On the downside it is rather early in the year meaning it will be cold, dark, and I may not have quite the required leg-miles for it.


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## martint235 (29 Nov 2016)

All this mention of BRM, I've got a BRM medal somewhere. I think for doing an audax over 1000km. Just saying.


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## Dayvo (29 Nov 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> Oh dear. I appear to have done something very stupid indeed, and very much against my own "keep it simple, keep it flat" advice.
> 
> I've just signed up for LWL.
> 
> ...



Oh dear, indeed! 

Good on ya, though. It's at the end of April, so weather and light _shouldn't_ be a problem. 

Maybe it's not your thing, but indoor spinning classes 2-3 times a week, will be of great benefit to your preparation, and supplement your road training when the weather conditions are better. 

Keep us posted.


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## Rustybucket (29 Nov 2016)

I've entered too! My wife thinks I'm mad! At least the Monday after is a bank holiday!


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## Jerry Atrik (29 Nov 2016)

Tempted !


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## Rustybucket (29 Nov 2016)

Jerry Atrik said:


> Tempted !



Do it!


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## jefmcg (29 Nov 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> need to book a travelodge or similar.


In 2015 I stayed at http://www.tilehouselodge.com/ which £40 including breakfast (the table was laid, so I could get myself cereal and toast and a coffee at 5.15 in the morning). I'm pretty sure they let me put my bike somewhere downstairs. I shared a bathroom, but as I arrived at 10 and left before 6, I never even heard another guest. The house could have been empty except for me and the cat.

You can also bring a mat and sleeping bag and sleep in the hall the night before the ride, which means you'd be equipped for a sleep at the end of the ride too.

Oops, you can't sleep the night before


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## Rustybucket (29 Nov 2016)

Is there anywhere near the start to park a car and leave whilst doing the ride?


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## Dogtrousers (29 Nov 2016)

Rustybucket said:


> Is there anywhere near the start to park a car and leave whilst doing the ride?


There's a list of facilities on the AUK website listing for the event. In true audax style these are presented as a list of incomprehensible abbreviations, so I don't know. One of them is a P, which may mean parking, or perhaps toilets.

Bear in mind that you will probably not be in a fit state (sleep deprived) to drive safely afterwards.


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## Ian H (29 Nov 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> There's a list of facilities on the AUK website listing for the event. In true audax style these are presented as a list of incomprehensible abbreviations, so I don't know. One of them is a P, which may mean parking, or perhaps toilets.



Just click the little '?' to see the full description.


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## Dogtrousers (29 Nov 2016)

Ian H said:


> Just click the little '?' to see the full description.


I tried that.

It says "F, G, L, NM, P, R, T" If I click the question mark it says "Toilets at start". FGLNMPRT seems a pretty long winded way to say "toilets".

To be fair, I think it's just a glitch for that ride. I picked a few others at random and they do seem to expand. So a bit of lateral thinking and codebreaking comparing with other rides makes me think that

F Some free food &/or drink provided on the ride
G GPS files available from organiser.
L Left luggage secure(ish) at the start
NM No Mudguards required
P Parking free or reasonably priced, at start
R Refreshments free or reasonably priced, at start and/or finish
T Toilets at start.

Edit. Found the key!! Key to Facilities


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## Ian H (29 Nov 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> I tried that.



I have tried a couple and they work. Perhaps the event you're looking at hasn't got spaces between the letters. It's organiser error (though understandable given the complexity of the back-end of the events system).


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## Dogtrousers (29 Nov 2016)

Ian H said:


> I have tried a couple and they work. Perhaps the event you're looking at hasn't got spaces between the letters. It's organiser error (though understandable given the complexity of the back-end of the events system).


Yes, this one has commas separating the codes. Only T is not followed by a comma and "T" works.

I'll drop the organiser an email.


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## jefmcg (29 Nov 2016)

Instructions from LWL 2015, which may be informative

_Venue

Chalfont St Peter Community Centre, [..] Please note that you can not park at the Centre during the event so you will need to use the car park off Church Lane and take the path through to the community centre.

You will need to bring change to pay for parking.
The foyer to the centre gets very crowded at the start so please use your café locks to secure your bikes outside.

On Arrival_

_Please do not bring bikes into the community centre at the start as it will be very crowded._
_The Community Centre will be open from around 5am. Free tea & coffee will be available, along with cereal, bread/toast & jam._
_If you are coming by bike and want to leave any bags behind, see me at the start, and I’ll can look after them during the day (at your own risk – if it looks valuable I’ll stick it on ebay). Don’t leave bags in the Community Centre – other groups will use it during the day._


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## Ming the Merciless (29 Nov 2016)

jefmcg said:


> Instructions from LWL 2015, which may be informative
> 
> _Venue
> 
> ...



Park in public car park about 400m from community centre. Cost is about £3.50 for 24 hours from memory. Bring a sleeping bag. Grab some sleep back at community centre after riding till event closes and kicked out.


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## Dogtrousers (27 Feb 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> Oh dear. I appear to have done something very stupid indeed, and very much against my own "keep it simple, keep it flat" advice.
> 
> I've just signed up for LWL.


I've just seen sense and withdrawn my entry. The org is running a waiting list so it's only fair to let someone else have plenty of prep time.

I've been feeling moderately wasted at the end of each of my centuries so far this year. The idea of another 240k on top of that followed by a long complicated journey home means it's a non-starter for me.


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## Aravis (20 Apr 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> I've just seen sense and withdrawn my entry. The org is running a waiting list so it's only fair to let someone else have plenty of prep time.
> 
> I've been feeling moderately wasted at the end of each of my centuries so far this year. The idea of another 240k on top of that followed by a long complicated journey home means it's a non-starter for me.


I'd been idly following this thread, but I missed this important bit of information. I was sorry to hear this - I hope things are improving.

Last year I intended to do a Godwin, but circumstances meant I couldn't get the continuity I needed in the early summer. I fell back on a long-standing intention to ride three 150s in a calendar year, which I'd never done before, and with this I was successful. So I felt good for having completed a worthy challenge, and the Godwin will keep for another time.

On the original question - to Audax or not to Audax - one reason why I wouldn't choose an Audax for a first 400km ride (or 250 miles in my book) is that I'd want to complete it within a calendar day, and a 6am start wouldn't allow that. That's very much a personal thing - I wouldn't necessarily expect anyone else to see the calendar day thing as important.

Do you have any other challenges in mind for this year? One I'd like to do sometime is back-to-back 150 milers, and the thought doesn't intimidate as much as a single 200-250 miler does. An advantage of a back-to-back challenge is that the first part doesn't commit you to the second, and it will have been worth doing in its own right. So something like that might be a better target if confidence is a bit low.

I hope some of this might be useful!


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## smutchin (20 Apr 2017)

Aravis said:


> An advantage of a back-to-back challenge is that the first part doesn't commit you to the second, and it will have been worth doing in its own right.



On the other hand, if there's an option to bail out, you're much more likely to bail out.


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## Ming the Merciless (20 Apr 2017)

Aravis said:


> I'd been idly following this thread, but I missed this important bit of information. I was sorry to hear this - I hope things are improving.
> 
> Last year I intended to do a Godwin, but circumstances meant I couldn't get the continuity I needed in the early summer. I fell back on a long-standing intention to ride three 150s in a calendar year, which I'd never done before, and with this I was successful. So I felt good for having completed a worthy challenge, and the Godwin will keep for another time.
> 
> ...



You can always do the Audax as a Perm and start at midnight if you want to complete in a calendar day.


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## Dogtrousers (20 Apr 2017)

@Aravis I still intend to do another "big one" 300k plus sometime this year, but not an audax, just a ride from home. I can't be doing with all the problems of getting to/from events. I've got a nice route that I've devised, along the lines of my Godwin ride last year, nice and flat. It's a question of when. I did promise myself I'd do a 400 but I don't think that's going to happen.

I made the right decision chickening out of LWL tho. Too far, too hilly.

I wouldn't do a 2 day challenge, as that would mean blowing a whole weekend.


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## ianrauk (20 Apr 2017)

@Dogtrousers 
Too late for this year I think, but Saturday is the Oasts and Coasts 300km Audax
Starting from Meopham, it heads south over and down Toys Hill, over and down Ashdown forest to uckfield, Along to Battle, along the marshes, up and over Folkestone and Dover, following the near coast enough to Whitstable then back to Meopham via Cuxton.
In the scheme of things its not a hilly Audax and has a lot of flat.
Along with food at the start (6am) and finish, add in riding to and from your home, that would be a good 350+km ride.


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## Aravis (21 Apr 2017)

smutchin said:


> On the other hand, if there's an option to bail out, you're much more likely to bail out.


On longer rides I've quite often included an option to extend, by doing an fairly close pass to home at around three-quarter distance, and I've not found motivation to be a problem. It cuts both ways anyway; if the initial mountain doesn't seem so impossibly high, it's much easier to start.

Suppose there were a 400km calendar Audax organised as a figure-of-eight with the start/finish in the centre. That's perfectly feasible, isn't it? Anyone wanting to do a 400 but unsure about the full distance would surely find that an attractive option. But maybe the more experienced riders would think, rightly enough, that an important part of the essential challenge is diminished.


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## Dogtrousers (21 Apr 2017)

I like the Oasts and Coasts route, I often steal bits of it. 

Here's my current thinking about another big ride tk2. I could cut off the loop down to Dungeness if I want to shorten it a bit. 

I'm 0 from 2 on Audaxes this year, having also DNS'd the Shark due to a diary clash. I did ride the Shark route the week before and I wouldn't have made the cut off time anyway, it was so hilly.


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## ianrauk (21 Apr 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> I like the Oasts and Coasts route, I often steal bits of it.
> 
> Here's my current thinking about another big ride tk2. I could cut off the loop down to Dungeness if I want to shorten it a bit.
> 
> I'm 0 from 2 on Audaxes this year, having also DNS'd the Shark due to a diary clash. I did ride the Shark route the week before and I wouldn't have made the cut off time anyway, it was so hilly.




You don't fancy the sea apron from Birchington to Whitstable. A little bumpy with the laid concrete but in great weather it's a really nice ride.


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## Dogtrousers (21 Apr 2017)

ianrauk said:


> You don't fancy the sea apron from Birchington to Whitstable. A little bumpy with the laid concrete but in great weather it's a really nice ride.


Not sure, really. I have ridden it a couple of times and I do remember the bumps! But it's a possibility (btw I'd be riding it in the other direction - from Whitstable. Plan would be for breakfast at the Waterfront.


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## smutchin (21 Apr 2017)

Aravis said:


> Suppose there were a 400km calendar Audax organised as a figure-of-eight with the start/finish in the centre. That's perfectly feasible, isn't it? Anyone wanting to do a 400 but unsure about the full distance would surely find that an attractive option. But maybe the more experienced riders would think, rightly enough, that an important part of the essential challenge is diminished.



Such rides already exist. I think there's even one with clover in its name, with a route much as you'd imagine. Hang on... Yep, this is it: http://www.aukweb.net/events/detail/17-19/ - that's only a 200, but there are longer rides that follow a similar format. The Fairies 300 in June is broken into 100km and 200km loops.

I don't think such routes diminish the challenge - you only get credit for any audax ride if you complete the full distance that you signed up for - ie you can't enter a 400 and then downgrade it to a 200 mid-ride; nor can you upgrade from a 200 to a 400 if it turns out on the day that you fancy some extra miles. If anything, they are more challenging because you have to find the motivation to go back out again once you return to HQ. You may not find that a problem, but many do - I know this because it's been a regular topic for discussion for at least as long as I've been doing audaxes (12 years).

I would also say there is no point doing an audax if it's not a challenge - biting off slightly more than you can comfortably chew is part of the deal, you just have to be careful not to bite off so much that you choke on it. And part of that challenge is ensuring it's not too easy to give up at any point. Pretty much every ride has its low points but in my experience, you can usually ride through the rough patches and recover - many is the time I've felt like giving up at 3/4 distance, but pushed through and finished the ride feeling on top of the world. If you think you might want to give up at some point and get a lift back to the finish, you might be better off finding a nice sportive with a broom wagon service.

I entered the Brimstone 600 a few years ago. My build-up hadn't gone to plan, so I wasn't in ideal shape, and it was appalling conditions on the day - torrential rain from the start, barely above freezing, very strong headwind along the south coast... and on top of that, it's an extremely hilly ride. By the time I reached the Priddy control (390km), I was on the verge of being outside the time limit, but I'd already been riding for 24 hours by then so I needed a break. After a couple of hours of fitful sleep, I was looking forward to the cooked breakfast the controllers were very kindly offering, but within minutes of finishing it, I was outside hurling it into the hedgerow. I pressed on, but was seriously suffering, walking up even the gentler climbs, and stopping regularly to throw up. Even so, I was in two minds about whether to abandon, partly because it's so bloody difficult to get back to Poole from northern Somerset. In many ways, carrying on riding was the easier option. Ultimately, though, I decided to divert towards the nearest station (about 20km off route, iirc) and make the tortuous train journey back to Poole. I still regret that decision to this day - I'll just never know whether or not I could have recovered and finished the ride (although less than a third of the field did make it back inside the time limit, iirc). Definitely intending to go back and give it another go one day though.

I'm doing the O&C 300 tomorrow and riding 65km to the start, which will mean setting off from home at about 2.30am. Yeah, it's going to be physically tough, but you know what? It's still only a bike ride. I know and believe that I can do it, and that's half the battle won already. The really difficult part comes at around 240km when the route passes within a few miles of home. If I'm feeling low at that point, I will find it hard to motivate myself to ride all the way back to Meopham.


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## Dogtrousers (21 Apr 2017)

smutchin said:


> biting off slightly more than you can comfortably chew is part of the deal, you just have to be careful not to bite off so much that you choke on it. And part of that challenge is ensuring it's not too easy to give up at any point.


Excellent stuff.

I may come back and read this for motivation before I bottle out of my next Audax, whatever that is. I'll probably still bottle out, mind.


When I plan my own routes (which are long by my standards but not heroic audax stuff) I have to be careful to avoid comfortable bail out railway towns, but not avoid them by too much, just in case I _really do _need to bail. 

Sometimes I can get mugged by the bail monkey very suddenly. I'll be riding along not feeling bad, but if I go right past a railway station I can find myself standing in the ticket hall drinking coffee and surveying a newly purchased ticket before I know what's hit me.


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## Aravis (22 Apr 2017)

Thanks for the post, @smutchin. I learned a great deal from that, in particular that I don't have any idea what pushing myself really is!

For various reasons, in recent months I've quite often done loopy rides that don't stray too far from home. They've been good, but I do sometimes feel I'm missing the essential flavour of a long ride (long by my standards, that is).

I hadn't spotted any figure-of-eight or clover leaf Audaxes on the calendar, but I'm not an avid watcher. It's good to know it wasn't a completely stupid notion.



Dogtrousers said:


> Sometimes I can get mugged by the bail monkey very suddenly. I'll be riding along not feeling bad, but if I go right past a *railway station* I can find myself standing in the ticket hall drinking coffee and surveying a newly purchased ticket before I know what's hit me.


The thought of putting my bike on a train and maybe getting it scratched is invariably enough to keep me going.


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## Ming the Merciless (23 Apr 2017)

Hate to say it but LWL isn't a hilly ride in the scheme of things.


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## smutchin (24 Apr 2017)

YukonBoy said:


> Hate to say it but LWL isn't a hilly ride in the scheme of things.



I just checked the stats from when I did it in 2014. Yep, a long way short of the overall amount of climbing required to be classed as a "hilly" ride. 

Which is not to say it doesn't have one or two hills along the way...


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## Dogtrousers (24 Apr 2017)

Not quite sure what point you're trying to make.

I'm well aware of the profile of LWL, it has a couple of lumpy sections, that I can well do without if going beyond 300k. So for me its too far, too hilly.

This is why I tend to prefer my own routes to sportives/audaxes etc, as I like to be in control of things (pace, climbing, no mystery controls, no cutoff time etc) and I'm not bothered about company or lack of it.


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## smutchin (24 Apr 2017)

Aravis said:


> I learned a great deal from that, in particular that I don't have any idea what pushing myself really is!



You won't learn much about _really_ pushing yourself from me! I've just been reading about the Crackpot, a 1000km ride with over 13,000m climbing. It was last run as a calendar event in 2000 but has in the last few years been revived by a new wave of nutters riding it as a DIY by GPS, including some lunatics doing it on fixed gear.

It's great to read about, but I won't be signing up any time soon.

I do want to go back and have another go at the Brimstone 600 though - I've just re-read my ride report from my failed attempt and reminded myself of what a truly fantastic ride it is, despite the very high difficulty level.



Dogtrousers said:


> This is why I tend to prefer my own routes to sportives/audaxes etc, as I like to be in control of things (pace, climbing, no mystery controls, no cutoff time etc) and I'm not bothered about company or lack of it.



Nothing wrong with that. It all comes down to what you want from your riding, which is all that really matters. I do audax events for the sociable aspects, and because riding someone else's route means I get to discover roads that I might not ride otherwise. Some people like to chase the points and awards but I've never been much interested in that side of it and really don't get why some people are so obsessive over it.


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## Dogtrousers (24 Apr 2017)

Sorry about my grumpy post above. I hadn't had my coffee.


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## fatjel (5 May 2017)

I'm planning to do the Man of Kent 400 audax perm this month sometime.
It comes through Staplehurst where I live so saves traveling to the start and driving home at the end.


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## Redlight (8 May 2017)

The 400km is the point at which managing your food and rest become critical to whether you finish the ride feeling good, like something the cat dragged in or not at all. Inevitably there will be some night riding - though the night for most - and even in summer having the right kit becomes an important factor when the temperature drops. In that sense, I think the step up from 300 to 400 is exponentially greater than that from 200 to 300. Once you've done a couple of 400s, I'd say it's a fairly easy step up to a 600, especially if you're fast enough to get several hours sleep en route. For a first 400, I'd opt for one of the larger events, preferably with at least one catered control rather than all commercials, and just make sure you get plenty of sleep in the few days before. I don't believe you can "bank" sleep but not starting in deficit will make a big difference at around 1am in the middle of nowhere.


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## Dogtrousers (8 May 2017)

Thanks @Redlight. I've actually decided that while finishing a 400 is not an outright impossibility there's no way I could enjoy it, so I've scratched it off my to-do list. I'll do another "maximum possible" sometime this year (probs a bit over 300, maybe 200 miles), but not an event, as they introduce too much stuff that I can't control. 

I've no personal interest in doing multi-day things like 600s, so I'm not looking for a stepping stone to them. I think I've found my ceiling.


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## Racing roadkill (8 May 2017)

The first question you need to ask yourself is do you really want to be part of the organised event tribe? If you don't mind all of that type of thing, AUK have loads of options. If you don't want that sort of thing, get a device that is capable of tracking / recording your routes, and do some rides, using proper maps / available published GPX type routes, in your Locale. Then string a few together, to make up 400 Kms. I find it much more rewarding to go out and find / fettle my own routes, than the PAYG, type of organised rides. I might occasionally 'borrow' sections, that may be nicer / quieter options than ones I've found by myself, but I just feel like a lazy b*strd, turning up to an event organised by someone else. I don't like paying to ride on roads I can ride for free either ( unless it's for charidee ). Only you can truly be the judge of how to manage the Ride, in terms of nutrition and rest. Again, I find the best / most rewarding way of finding out what suits you best, is to try different options for yourself. You'll soon work out the best strategy for you.


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## smutchin (8 May 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> Thanks @Redlight. I've actually decided that while finishing a 400 is not an outright impossibility there's no way I could enjoy it, so I've scratched it off my to-do list. I'll do another "maximum possible" sometime this year (probs a bit over 300, maybe 200 miles), but not an event, as they introduce too much stuff that I can't control.
> 
> I've no personal interest in doing multi-day things like 600s, so I'm not looking for a stepping stone to them. I think I've found my ceiling.



I don't mind admitting that I found the London-Wales-London 400 extremely tough - much tougher than when I did it three years ago, when I was much fitter and stronger. (Last time I finished by 3am, this time I didn't get back until after 7am.)

I feel the only way to really enjoy a 400 or 600 is to be fast enough to get round it without needing a sleep stop, or at least fast enough that you have plenty of time in hand for a proper sleep. Or to be the kind of rider like @Redlight who makes up for lack of speed with indefatigable endurance!

I quite understand that those kind of rides aren't going to appeal to everyone. I'm sometimes not sure why they appeal to me...


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## smutchin (8 May 2017)

Racing roadkill said:


> I don't like paying to ride on roads I can ride for free either



On an audax, you're not paying to ride the roads, you're paying for a) the catering, and b) the admin (getting your ride validated).

I don't care much about the validation per se (not a points chaser) but I like doing other people's routes because they help me discover roads that I wouldn't know about otherwise, and for me that's the main attraction of audax. I've also got a big stack of brevet cards as mementoes of the rides I've done - the information they contain may be scant but it tells a lot of stories.


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## tatr (8 May 2017)

You are also paying to do it at the same time as lots of other people, all riding at different speeds, so you have groups to join and a bit of group motivation. 

I've done solo 400k rides and they require a lot of self motivation not to bail and get on a train.


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## PpPete (8 May 2017)

Never dared to try more than 200km solo.
And very glad to find someone of similar(ish) pace to ride with for much of the latter part of my last 400.


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## tatr (8 May 2017)

PpPete said:


> Never dared to try more than 200km solo.



I tried a solo 500k (St David's in Wales to London) but after 400k I couldn't stand the group and got on a train.


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## DCLane (8 May 2017)

This Saturday I'm off on a 400k - the Llanfair audax - but will end up doing my 600 solo on the N/S LEL route. Hopefully at some point I won't fall out with me and flounce off.


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## Redlight (9 May 2017)

smutchin said:


> Or to be the kind of rider like @Redlight who makes up for lack of speed with indefatigable endurance!



I don't know about indefatigable endurance - it's more the knowledge that I've got to keep going because there isn't an alternative! Like you, I found L-W-L harder than in the past but I put that down to not eating well at the early controls. (And, of course, you still finished before me :-)). I am fortunate, though, in that in normal circumstances I can keep going for a full value 400 or 600 without needing to sleep. At a push I can go for 48 hours, as on the London-Edinburgh-London in 2009, but I'm conscious that my speed, such as it is, tails off once I get into the red zone. Getting the food right makes all the difference. On the last PBP, I sailed through to Brest in 34 hours without a sleep stop, took a few hours there and cat napped for 45-90 minutes at a time on the way back. But that was only because the food outbound was good. On the way back I found it harder to eat well (esp when they ran out at Carhaix) so my speed on the road came down.


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## Ajax Bay (9 May 2017)

DCLane said:


> This Saturday I'm off on a 400k - the Llanfair audax -


Well I think you are heading back across the Menai straights at 240km. I (we - 150 entries) will be on the Bryan Chapman Memorial 600 (after the Brevet Cymru 10 days ago) and cross the bridge to the Menai Scout hut (just below the north end of the bridge) at 292km. But since we start at 6 and you start at 9 (and you have a headwind on the way out) who knows; our paths may cross (well they will cross but only synchronously by chance). I'm hoping to make Menai by sunset (2106) and with the nearly full moon up all night you should be 'lit' all the way back to Poynton. I'll be grabbing some early hours in a King's YH (Dolgellau) bunk hopefully before heading south back to Chepstow at sunrise.


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## tatr (9 May 2017)

I am also riding the BCM. First 600 for me. See you in Wales!


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## Redlight (10 May 2017)

And me - although I have never made it to Menai before dark and don't anticipate doing so on Saturday. Weather forecast is improving though :-)


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## Ajax Bay (10 May 2017)

20km shorter to Menai Bridge than in 2015 so more doable. Sunscreen?! Even over the heights of Pen-y-pas (info control, 267km) and down to Llanberis, the temperature should be civilised, but the sun will be right in your eyes in the 20 minutes before sunset (21:05). Here's hoping.


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## tatr (11 May 2017)

Packing and a bit of last minute bike setup going on.

New leg warmers and overshoes fit 

Welsh mountain survival gear is undershirt, merino base layer, jersey, gilet, down gilet, waterproof jacket. Fingers crossed.


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## Redlight (11 May 2017)

Ah what to pack, what to leave at home... The saddlebag has been packed and repacked several times this evening. The bag drop offer is very helpful if you're driving to the start but for those of us arriving by bike, everything still has to be carried. Jersey and shorts for the day with leggings, extra base layer and a winter top for the overnight stretch. Bulky but not too heavy to lug on the whole route.


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## tatr (11 May 2017)

I've ended up with:

*Day*
Jersey
Base layer
Merino base layer
Wind proof gilet
Bib shorts
Mitts
Shoes
Merino socks

*Night/rain/cold*
Leg warmers
Shoe covers
Down gilet
Waterproof jacket
Winter gloves
Merino buff

*Navigation and lights*
Garmin 820 + phone
Cateye 800 and 300 front light
Cateye 50 rear light
1 spare battery (fits all lights)
Head lamp (doubles as spare rear light in emergency)
10,000mAh battery pack and cables

*Punctures*
3x spare tubes
Repair kit (incl multi-tool, tyre levers, Di2 cable, missing link)
2x Co2 cartridges and also a pump

*Food and luggage*
Few harribo, couple of flapjacks, space to carry more
Half frame bag
Top tube bag
2x 750ml bottles (required new side entry bottle cages to fit!)

All-in weight is 12.8kg plus water.

I started packing thinking I'd have loads of space but of course it hasn't ended up like that at all


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## DCLane (11 May 2017)

@tatr for a 400 I'd have:

*Day - wearing*
Jersey
Base layer
Bib shorts
Mitts
Shoes
Socks
Toe covers for shoes

*Night/rain/cold*
Tights
Shower jacket
Arm warmers
Long gloves

*Navigation and lights*
Garmin 200 + power supply
2 x front 25 watt lights
2 x rear 1 watt lights
Head torch (must remember to get mine back!)
2 x AA and 2 x AAA spare batteries

*Punctures*
3x spare tubes
Repair kit (incl multi-tool, tyre levers, brake/gear cable, missing link, tie straps, duct tape, emergency spoke)
Pump

*Food and luggage*
Mini malt loaf, flap jacks, gels/bars
Rear clip-on bag
Top tube bag
2x 750ml bottles
creams, etc.
first aid things
Lock
A6 clipboard with my laminated route instructions on

All-in weight is ? 13-14kg I think but the bike's 10kg to start with


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## jiberjaber (12 May 2017)

I might have mentioned before I think, but Kingdom Of The East Saxons is a great first 400km ride around Essex with great TLC! An info thread has just opened on the other forum for them thats interested. 

https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=103145.new#new


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## Redlight (12 May 2017)

I'm travelling a tad lighter:

Day: Base layer, bib shorts, jersey, socks, shoes, mitts, cloth cap, glasses, wind jacket when needed, e.g. first thing

Night: Most of the above + thicker socks, winter gloves, water/wind proof tights, winter top, thermal cap

Small bar bag with money, train tickets, phone, battery boosters for phone and Garmin, ID, cafe lock, copy of route sheet just in case, toothbrush and paste

Crossbar bag with nuts, dried fruit and fig rolls for grazing on the move

Sadddlebag with all the clothing when not being worn and fresh kit for riding home on Monday, plus toiletries, some turkey and mayo rolls for emergencies, energy/malt loaf bars, head torch , 3 tubes and patches, basic tool kit

Lighting is hub dynamo plus two battery lights at rear.

No idea what it weighs but if it slows me down uphill it will contribute to my momentum downhill :-)


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## smutchin (12 May 2017)

DCLane said:


> @tatr for a 400 I'd have:



Good list. Not that much different to what I would take... 

*



Navigation and lights

Click to expand...

*


> Garmin 200 + power supply
> 2 x front 25 watt lights
> 2 x rear 1 watt lights
> Head torch (must remember to get mine back!)
> 2 x AA and 2 x AAA spare batteries



For me it's dynamo lights, front and rear, and a USB battery pack, which is kept topped up via the Igaro D1 charger. I know I should also carry back-up lights but I didn't on last week's 400 and regretted it slightly because I had some problems with my front light. Also forgot to pack my head torch but fortunately didn't need it.



> *Punctures*
> 3x spare tubes
> Repair kit (incl multi-tool, tyre levers, brake/gear cable, missing link, tie straps, duct tape, emergency spoke)
> Pump



I only carry two tubes, plus a couple of CO2 canisters, but also instant patches and a pump as back-up. So far, this year, with 1,300km of audaxing under my belt, I've not needed any of them!

I don't carry spare cables or emergency spokes. Maybe I should. I do have a missing link in my emergency kit though.

*



Food and luggage

Click to expand...

*


> Mini malt loaf, flap jacks, gels/bars
> Rear clip-on bag
> Top tube bag
> 2x 750ml bottles



I tend not to carry much food, which I sometimes regret. Usually a few gels but they're for emergency use. Plus some jelly babies to snack on. I do always carry enough electrolyte tabs to see me round the duration of the ride though.



> creams, etc.
> first aid things
> Lock



Three things I really ought to add to my kit. I bought some mini tubes of sun cream last year but I'm very bad at remembering to use it. Very useful on a 400 - even if it's not sunny, you're spending a long time outdoors exposed to UV light. I did have a small café lock which I used to carry on long rides but it broke last year and I haven't got round to replacing it yet. The need for such a thing was brought home to me on the LWL when two riders got their bikes pinched from outside one of the controls - a rare occurrence but it does happen!



> A6 clipboard with my laminated route instructions on



It's years since I used a printed routesheet - I've been GPS only since 2014 - but I have a Klickfix handlebar mount for the purpose. I had to dig it out recently so I could test my routesheet for my own ride I'm organising in September. It was quite a weird experience.


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## Redlight (12 May 2017)

jiberjaber said:


> I might have mentioned before I think, but Kingdom Of The East Saxons is a great first 400km ride around Essex with great TLC!



Got that one marked as a 'possible'. The other possible option is heading north for the Pendle 600. Logistically, KOTES would be a lot easier, even if extended for a 600. A lot will depend on how this weekend goes!


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## Dogtrousers (12 May 2017)

jiberjaber said:


> I might have mentioned before I think, but Kingdom Of The East Saxons is a great first 400km ride around Essex with great TLC! An info thread has just opened on the other forum for them thats interested.
> 
> https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=103145.new#new


If you're interested in GPX files there are none on the auk page (at the moment at least) but with a bit of sniffing around I found these from 2016 - which may obviously be a bit out of date, but worth a look at. And there's also this, which is again *from 2016*, so caveat.


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## Ajax Bay (12 May 2017)

tatr said:


> Welsh mountain survival gear is undershirt, merino base layer, jersey, gilet, down gilet, waterproof jacket.


You will boil. Maybe jacket on for the downhill in the rain.
To the various lists above I'd add a 'under helmet' cap for first thing and overnight.


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## jiberjaber (12 May 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> If you're interested in GPX files there are none on the auk page (at the moment at least) but with a bit of sniffing around I found these from 2016 - which may obviously be a bit out of date, but worth a look at. And there's also this, which is again *from 2016*, so caveat.



Yep, 2016 was the first running of it, here's my ride report from it.

https://www.strava.com/activities/629703646


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## Dogtrousers (12 May 2017)

jiberjaber said:


> Yep, 2016 was the first running of it, here's my ride report from it.
> 
> https://www.strava.com/activities/629703646


Stop tempting me. It has everything I need. Flatness, manageable logistics ...


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## Heltor Chasca (19 Jul 2018)

This is a great thread. Lots of very valuable stuff.


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