# Challenge Furai "heel strike"?



## Burnette (21 Jul 2010)

I have been looking at buying several bikes and wondered if someone could help me with some insight into the Furai. I have talked to Kelvin at Angletech about the Serian 26 and the Fujin Tour. I am short of stature so the Serian has seat height issues for me and the Fujin Tour sits lower than I want to be. Which leaves the Furai. Does the Furai has excessive heel strike? I will have to shorten the boom which concerns me and it is possible to get the Furai with 26" wheels , which exacerbates the heel strike issue. Is this a no go for me? I really want USS and will make sacrafices(heavier Challenge bikes) but I have to know whether or not I can atleast turn left/right without crashing my front wheel.


----------



## arallsopp (21 Jul 2010)

The Seiran is a LOT bigger than the Furai. I rolled up alongside one last week for the first time and was amazed at the difference. Its huge! In addition, the seat on the Furai is lower slung than on the Seiran, with the result that the ground is a lot closer than you can credit to the wheels alone. The compact geometry and tight wheelbase means the risk of heel strike is certainly present.

Of course, we're all individuals and our personal levels of scale, flexibility, confidence, balance and comfort will vary. So as we're comparing like for like, I have a 30inch inside leg in trousers, 32 inches crotch to floor. X-Seam of just under 40 inches (measured using the utah trikes method), which makes me a 'short' for most manufacturers. I run the boom a little long, as I tend to sit quite far forward in the seat. I can't ride OSS to save my life, and learnt to ride recumbent on a USS SMGTe bought 9 months before the Furai. 

On my Furai 24" (running ETRTO 520 Duranos) I *can* get my crank to within an inch and a half from the tyre. Swap the Durano's (28mm) for Marathon Racers (40mm) and you're closer still. Of course, it'd take the right combination of crank and wheel position, but its possible. The pedals sit outside that, but if you pedal through a sharp turn, at very low speed, you will almost certainly find your foot in the spokes. Put simply, you learn not to do this. At normal riding speeds, simply leaning the bike will get you around the turn. At low speeds, you can 'ratchet' the cranks back and forth so that you stay out of the danger zone (inside pedal down/back). I hit the wheel daily trying to pull away on hill starts for a week or so, and managed to bail into the verge at 2.5 mph on a 16% climb where I simply ran out of power, got twitchy in the steering, and ended up tangled. 

After a week I learnt to pull away in a straight line, and change down early when the road begins to climb. I've not hit the spokes since. The low seat and smaller wheels mean I can comfortably rest with either/both feet flat on the floor, which helps considerably when stopping in traffic. 

The SMGTe is 8kgs heavier than the Furai and a little higher. Although it has ZERO heel strike risk, I can only really dip a toe to the tarmac to rest up. This makes overshoes expensive (unless the top of the toe is reinforced) and wet roads very slippy. Part of my heel strike woes when learning the Furai were certainly in coming from a bike that didn't have this issue, as I'd picked up habits that I didn't know would be a problem. 

(Talking of which, I so nearly grounded a pedal on my other half's upright last night trying to power through a high speed turn. Scared the hell out of me. If the pedals are gonna tip you off the bike, I'd far rather it happens at 2mph on the Furai than 25 on a DF). 

You can spec the Furai with 26" wheels. This would certainly take the seat further from the floor and put the wheels closer to the pedals. Either may be tolerable, but I'd struggle to say 'advantageous'. Yes, there are probably more tyre choices, but hell, you only need two. Clearance is pretty tight on the 24", so I expect the 26 version comes with a new front fork (1" longer). That'll raise the front of the 26er bike by an inch at the hubs and another before the boom. Assuming they've compensated at the rear end, that puts you 2 inches further from the ground. You'll know if that's doable. I suppose the increased heel risk could be mitigated by fitting shorter cranks. For a smaller rider (some say *all* riders) that might be advantageous anyway, but it does take you further from standard kit).

I spent some time alongside a Furai 26 on last year's LEL. (see Arvid's report here: http://arvid.org/lel...index.html.en). There were some nasty uphill switchback hairpins to contend with at Whorton, and he seemed to be pedalling through the turn without issue. He's no taller than me, so I guess he (like me) has simply learnt how to move slowly without twitching the wheel. 

All in, the advantages of the 26 (standard rims, spokes, tyres) should be weighed against the advantages for the 24 (more wind shelter, stronger wheels, no need for custom cranks), evaluated against aesthetics and taste, and test ridden until you know which you want


----------



## Burnette (21 Jul 2010)

I have 28 1/2" pants inseam, a 38" xseam, so not too far then. I want to be able to get my feet down good and want the option to use standard components, so that means staying with the 24" wheels I guees. Do you switch out the tires from Durano to Matathons much? I live in NC where the roads are roguh/bumpy and the hills are aplenty. I like the plumpness of the Marathon but I may need to go with the Durano for climbing. Which do you ride with themost? I like the Metallic Green color but I'm not a fan of the black wheels. I will bother Kelvin and ask what options I have there. Thanks for you replies.


----------



## arallsopp (21 Jul 2010)

Burnette said:


> Do you switch out the tires from Durano to Marathons much? I live in NC where the roads are rough/bumpy and the hills are aplenty. I like the plumpness of the Marathon but I may need to go with the Durano for climbing. Which do you ride with themost? I like the Metallic Green color but I'm not a fan of the black wheels. I will bother Kelvin and ask what options I have there. Thanks for you replies.




I never switch out, and run exclusively on the Duranos. I live in SE London where the roads are rough/bumpy and the hills (and traffic) are aplenty. The rear suspension soaks up enough of the buzz to avoid plump tyres, but you have to keep the front at 120psi to avoid pinch punctures. I run an aftermarket SON hub up front, which I've coupled to aerohead rims. They're still black, but with a shiny braking surface. My bike is black and white anyway.


----------



## Fiona N (21 Jul 2010)

Just to add to what Arallsopp has said, I could just hit my heel on the tyre of my Speedmachine as I'm also at the short end of the range - between you and Arallsopp with a 31 inch crotch-floor. It was never an issue for me as the Speedmachine was the first recumbent bike I rode to any extent (I did test ride a Hurricane and it was a bigger problem on that as it has OSS tiller-type and I found I had difficulties cycling straight at low speed even on the flat) and I just learnt when there was likely to be a problem and avoided it. Once I got short cranks - which I would heartlly recommend - the issue disappeared. 

I also run Duranos all round on my Windcheetah and find them a good compromise between performance and durability. I was using Continentals (28mm on front and 25mm on the back, 110 psi all round) before and the durability of the Duranos is much better for only a slight loss of performance - and they're easier to get hold of.


----------



## Burnette (22 Jul 2010)

To Furai owners, did any of you replace the idlers with Terracyle idlers/if so were they worth it? Do any of you have pictures of yourself on the Furai with USS? The Challenge site has some OSS pics but I want to see the seat/arm/leg intergace. Pics and info are hard to find.

Also, I will never ride the Furai off road but the roads here can get rough. Would you go for the front suspension with the narrower Duranos or is it not necessary for road ridng?


----------



## arallsopp (22 Jul 2010)

Burnette said:


> To Furai owners, did any of you replace the idlers with Terracyle idlers/if so were they worth it?


I've been chasing Pat at Terracycle on the development of these idlers since purchasing the Furai without them. The main issues with the stock idlers (as shipped at the start of this year) are:

1. The Power Side chainkeeper does not work well.
2. The Power Side idler does not float. 
3. The power side chain likes to gnaw on the mid return idler, the fork, and sometimes snags the return chain at the crossovers. 
4. The front return idler breaks, and could use a chainkeeper.

Challenge have issued me replacement idlers, and the newer/upgraded in-house versions address point 4.

I'm a couple of weeks of getting the Terracycle kit now. Its not an essential upgrade, but it does sort out a lot of niggles. I can share pics if you want. You can ride a long way on a broken idler, but its not great.



Burnette said:


> Do any of you have pictures of yourself on the Furai with USS? The Challenge site has some OSS pics but I want to see the seat/arm/leg intergace. Pics and info are hard to find.


Leave it with me. I can get some snaps next time I head out.



Burnette said:


> Also, I will never ride the Furai off road but the roads here can get rough. Would you go for the front suspension with the narrower Duranos or is it not necessary for road ridng?


For road riding, I suspect the front suspension is overkill. Its also not mechanically brilliant. Nice idea, but the early implementations I saw looked like another point of failure.

Goodness... I'm quite down on the Furai today. I feel somewhat obligated to add that I love mine, and wouldn't be without it.


----------



## Burnette (22 Jul 2010)

I just sent an e-mail to Terracycle about an idler kit for the Furai because I didn't see one on their site. I hope they do offer because I cannot accept paying four grand for a bike that breaks. Thank you very, very much for th effort to post some pictures of you on your Furai. When I buy mine(if the idler issue can be resolved) I will try to also post some pictures. It will be helpful for me to imagine how I would fit into the bike and how the whole arms, feer and legs thing works out. Let me say again that I appreciate your effort to help and for the information already given.


----------



## arallsopp (22 Jul 2010)

Burnette said:


> I just sent an e-mail to Terracycle about an idler kit for the Furai because I didn't see one on their site. I hope they do offer because I cannot accept paying four grand for a bike that breaks.




I can save you some of the wait.


Terracycle purchased a Furai a couple years ago and have developed idler kits for it. They're just not quite ready with all the accompanying PR and instructions. They make two different versions. Both include return idlers, but one retains the original Challenge power side idler. This version provides a new, very stern chainkeeper mechanism to keep the chain under control at all times. This is usually the big complaint with that idler. They are actually selling the new keeper to Challenge now. The second version replaces the stock power side idler with a TerraCycle idler on a new floating mount.

Attached are photos of the version that retains the stock power side idler. This is mostly intended for things like the Mistral where the stock idler is integrated into the suspension pivot and it's too hard to replace it with anything else (see attachment id_FuraiSide5a.jpg, id_Furai_stockPowerClose.jpg).

Also attached are photos of the version that replaces all the idlers (see ip_furai3_lo.jpg, ip_furai4.jpg). The power side idler has about 12mm of float. 

On both kits, the mid return idler is moved down on a special mount to get it below and out of the way of the power side chain. A small piece of floating chain tube is used to protect the fork where the power side chain goes by. Since the tube is made from a quiet plastic and attached via a special floating mount, it is very quiet. You basically can't hear it.

As above, they haven't announced these kits yet. They've been mechanically complete for a couple months now, but Pat's been too busy to do the instructions, the website, and a press release. They have already sold the chainkeepers to Challenge and a couple of kits to Fujin customers that didn't want to wait. I've asked for pricing to get the full kit to the UK.


Andy.


----------



## arallsopp (22 Jul 2010)

Oh, and totally forgot to say "Welcome!"

Sorry, hadn't spotted this was your opening post


----------



## arallsopp (25 Jul 2010)

Burnette said:


> Do any of you have pictures of yourself on the Furai with USS? The Challenge site has some OSS pics but I want to see the seat/arm/leg intergace.



Here you go, courtesy of the wife today. Two flybys, one left to right, one right to left, one race with the toddler, and one demonstration of heelstrike from the driver's eye.

Andy.


----------



## Burnette (25 Jul 2010)

Thanks! Awesome pics. Did the toddler win? Ha! I have a 2 yr/7mo old daughter myself. I see that from one pick on the side it looks as if you culdn't do a left or right turn with out hitting your calf. It is a beautiful bike btw. Is heel strike an issue much for you now? I am aware that once underway that heel strike will go away but there are times when you have to go slow and turn. Is it something you overlook or does it bother you still? It seems like Challenge could have put the cranks higher and the front wheel alittle further back to help this some. Again, awesome pics, beautiful bike too and it really helps to see someone on a bike to get a feel of what it would be like to ride it.


----------



## arallsopp (26 Jul 2010)

Burnette said:


> Thanks! Awesome pics. Did the toddler win?



He won the first loop, yes. He turns tighter than me. 


Burnette said:


> I see that from one pick on the side it looks as if you culdn't do a left or right turn with out hitting your calf. Is heel strike an issue much for you now? I am aware that once underway that heel strike will go away but there are times when you have to go slow and turn. Is it something you overlook or does it bother you still?



In loose jeans, I suspect I could rub the fabric on the wheel if I tried. The calf would be out of reach though. Worth saying that either end of those flybys terminated with a 180 degree turn in the road (which between parked cars is maybe a lane and a half in width), and that I didn't get any interference from the wheel/pedal/clothes.
Turning at less than 3mph invites it, but then, at that speed, I'm damn close to falling off anyway  Learn to pull away straight, and you don't encounter it. I really don't think about it any more, and instinctively roll through low speed turns with the inside leg raised. Cleats help, because they put your foot in an EXACT position. This way, you very quickly learn where the contact will begin. 

If I'm aggressively chasing heel strike (say, for the purposes of the 4th photo) its still pretty benign. Tends to be a 'brrrrippp' from the inside edge of the shoe's sole on the tyre, rather than anything nasty re spokes.


----------



## Arch (26 Jul 2010)

arallsopp said:


> He won the first loop, yes. He turns tighter than me.



Yeah, yeah. Excuses ,excuses. 

He's really going for it isn't he! Lovely!


----------



## itself (1 Sep 2010)

Good morning all!

Just Lisa from the States. Burnette and I have been chatting as we are both interested in getting a Furai. 

A bit off topic, I am curious about the handling of the Furai. Here in Arizona, as I am sure where Wayne lives, we have a lot of hills to tackle. I REALLY want to give the hamster bars a try. They look really cool, and clearly are more aerodynamic. I have "heard" that one has to lean steer the bike more than turn it, is this true? How does she handle high downhill speeds (if you have any hills!), like around 40mph (I apologize I don't have the km conversion!)

How twitchy/squirrly is the Furai? I am an experienced recumbent rider and can handle most bikes. I had a Rans Rocket when I first started riding. I am not a fan of tiller steering, but I did get used to it.

I had a good chat with Robert at Terracycle yesterday. They have this idler problem licked. Now let's see if Paul at Challenge will respond and just automatically put these on all of their bikes. Most honestly, they are expensive bikes, and one should not have to upgrade the idlers. Let's see how it all pans out.

Thanks for your help!

Cheers!

Lisa


----------



## arallsopp (1 Sep 2010)

itself said:


> I am curious about the handling of the Furai. Here in Arizona, as I am sure where Wayne lives, we have a lot of hills to tackle. I REALLY want to give the hamster bars a try. They look really cool, and clearly are more aerodynamic. I have "heard" that one has to lean steer the bike more than turn it, is this true? How does she handle high downhill speeds (if you have any hills!), like around 40mph (I apologize I don't have the km conversion!)


I've descended bumpy twisty roads at a touch under 50mph, in the pack with uprights, immediately after breakfast having ridden through the night before. No problems detected, except for my sleep deprived eyes not being able to keep up. I have USS on my Furai, and can echo that you need to lean rather than steer if only to avoid heel strike. Besides which, it feels great to lean in too steep then power out.  I can't get on with hamster bars on any of my bikes, but that's probably just me.





itself said:


> How twitchy/squirrly is the Furai? I am an experienced recumbent rider and can handle most bikes. I had a Rans Rocket when I first started riding. I am not a fan of tiller steering, but I did get used to it.


As above, I can't do tiller at all  Just seems to be beyond my comprehension. That said I've got over 8000 miles on the Furai, and I've only ever had her get skippy twice. Once was in the rain onto a hard right turn (in your world, that'd be left). Oncoming traffic popped up and I grabbed the brakes which saw the rear slide away from me. Nothing bad, stayed upright. Bit breathless though. The other was when the USS linkage was loose, and I hit a raised bit of road running *almost* parallel to me. Close enough that the front wheel tracked it rather than me, which was a little disconcerting but again it all righted itself without issue.




itself said:


> I had a good chat with Robert at Terracycle yesterday. They have this idler problem licked. Now let's see if Paul at Challenge will respond and just automatically put these on all of their bikes. Most honestly, they are expensive bikes, and one should not have to upgrade the idlers. Let's see how it all pans out.



If you're spec'ing out a new bike, bear in mind that the replacement terracycle power side idler doesn't actually fit with the carbon seat (damn). The feeder solution works just as well though.

Andy.


----------



## itself (1 Sep 2010)

Andy,

Thanks! Great information. Darn, not good about the power side idler not working with a carbon seat. I am not sure I will have to worry about heels strike as much as I would put 155mm cranks on the bike.

Just curious, as I am looking at the pictures of the white Furai. They list the BB at around 28" high, yet it looks so level in the picture. I have a Ti Aero, my BB is 30" and the seat height is 23". According to the specs on the Furai, it would be almost the same seat to BB height relationship.

How does the BB feel on the Furai in relation to the seat? 

Thanks!

Lisa


----------



## arallsopp (6 Sep 2010)

itself said:


> Just curious, as I am looking at the pictures of the white Furai. They list the BB at around 28" high, yet it looks so level in the picture. I have a Ti Aero, my BB is 30" and the seat height is 23". According to the specs on the Furai, it would be almost the same seat to BB height relationship.
> 
> How does the BB feel on the Furai in relation to the seat?





I'd guess it feels a little lower than on your Aero. If I had to put a measure on it (and I haven't) I'd say the BB is pretty much the same altitude as my hipbone, ie. with my leg extended horizontally directly forwards from the seat, it'd pass directly adjacent to the BB. As above, I haven't measured this at all, but it feels about level. High enough to 'lock' you into the bike, low enough to keep the blood moving. Perfect, for me. 

I'll measure it if you fancy. Bear in mind the rear suspension will compress under load, so if those specs are given for an empty bike on a factory floor, you'll read about an inch lower for the seat.

Andy.


----------



## Fleur (14 Oct 2010)

Hi All,

I have also a Furai equiped with the SL2 package, on this site several pictures: Furai SL2

This is how it looks like.









Link to full size umage (12mpix): Furai SL2 VK2 tail full size

I have one remark about the "heel strike": there are two positions for mounting the carbon seat on the Furai = two big holes in the frame with a tube soldered in it.

The seat of the white Furai with USS, pictured earlier in this thread, is mounted on the rear hole.	This position is for people with a relively long X-seam. 

The front hole is used for people with short X seam.

If the seat is mounted using the front hole, it os moved forward and the boom can be extended more what reduces the risk of heel strike.

Another remark about the tires: as far as I know, from Schwalbe, only the Durano exists in ETRTO 520, they are 0.9" = 23mm wide. The Marathon Racer do not exist in ETRTO520. Schwalbe has no other tire in ETRTO520, other 24" tires like the Marathon are ETRTO507


----------



## Riding in Circles (14 Oct 2010)

itself said:


> Good morning all!
> 
> Just Lisa from the States. Burnette and I have been chatting as we are both interested in getting a Furai.
> 
> ...



You should get yourself a Catbike over there.


----------



## itself (14 Oct 2010)

I rode the Catbike Musashi and felt it had no spunk to it. It just didn't take off on a dime like my Ti Aero 24, and road more like a truck. 

They need to lighten it up and change the handlebars out to a narrower tweener or hamsters. Just my two cents!


----------



## Riding in Circles (14 Oct 2010)

I have found it to be a very quick machine and good handling too. All it needed were some trigger shifters.


----------



## PloddinPedro (12 Oct 2014)

arallsopp said:


> Terracycle purchased a Furai a couple years ago and have developed idler kits for it. They're just not quite ready with all the accompanying PR and instructions. They make two different versions. Both include return idlers, but one retains the original Challenge power side idler. This version provides a new, very stern chainkeeper mechanism to keep the chain under control at all times. This is usually the big complaint with that idler. They are actually selling the new keeper to Challenge now. The second version replaces the stock power side idler with a TerraCycle idler on a new floating mount.
> 
> Attached are photos of the version that retains the stock power side idler. This is mostly intended for things like the Mistral where the stock idler is integrated into the suspension pivot and it's too hard to replace it with anything else (see attachment id_FuraiSide5a.jpg, id_Furai_stockPowerClose.jpg).
> 
> ...


Hi. Thread resurrection. As a ‘bent newbie, I’m still on a steep learning curve. For my sins, I have just acquired a Furai 26 and need to replace the worn idlers. I found the TerraCycle stuff you describe at Icletta.com

I wonder if you did indeed go on to get these yourself and whether you can recommend them, or perhaps suggest any alternatives?

Loved the book by the way!


----------



## GrasB (12 Oct 2014)

TerraCycle stuff is the best I can find, though they are quite expensive. I use their idlers on all of my recumbents. The only difficulty can be working out which idler I want but if in doubt the guys at icletta should be able to advise you.


----------



## arallsopp (13 Oct 2014)

PloddinPedro said:


> Hi. Thread resurrection. As a ‘bent newbie, I’m still on a steep learning curve. For my sins, I have just acquired a Furai 26 and need to replace the worn idlers. I found the TerraCycle stuff you describe at Icletta.com
> 
> I wonder if you did indeed go on to get these yourself and whether you can recommend them, or perhaps suggest any alternatives?
> 
> Loved the book by the way!



Howdo.

By the time I'd got myself in gear to actually get things sorted, David at Laidback had sourced a stock replacement and sent it down to me. I rather missed having a cleat back in view, but it sure kept a lot quieter for the following 10k miles. I've used Terracycle for other bikes in the stable, and they've always been very good in terms of helping me work out which bits I needed and the quality of the kit supplied. Thanks for reading 

Andy.


----------



## PloddinPedro (13 Oct 2014)

arallsopp said:


> Howdo.
> 
> By the time I'd got myself in gear to actually get things sorted, David at Laidback had sourced a stock replacement and sent it down to me. I rather missed having a cleat back in view, but it sure kept a lot quieter for the following 10k miles. I've used Terracycle for other bikes in the stable, and they've always been very good in terms of helping me work out which bits I needed and the quality of the kit supplied. Thanks for reading
> 
> Andy.


OK, thanks. I've decided to go for it and have ordered some TerraCycle stuff. So I guess I'll have to wait and see how I get on!


----------

