# no cleats for me.



## gavroche (8 Oct 2011)

Been using flat pedals since I got my bike last June and been thinking about getting clears. First, asked my LBS for strapped pedals to try and am very happy with them . Easy to remove feet when I stop and the main advantage is that I can wear normal trainers if I have to walk after. Can't do that with cleats! Straps may be old fashioned but certainly more practical.


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## screenman (8 Oct 2011)

Maybe more practical to you but to me they are useless. Cleats all the way, Bet I can get my feet off the pedals quicker than you can reach down and release your tight toe straps, unless of course you wear them lose in which case why bother with them at all.


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## gavroche (8 Oct 2011)

But awkward if you have to do any walking though! Each man to his own. I think with straps , I have the best of both worlds. Anyone else think like me?


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## Fnaar (8 Oct 2011)

I have spd shoes with recessed cleats, and walking isn't prob. Have even cycled to a hike, hiked up hills and then cycled home again in them.


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## coffeejo (8 Oct 2011)

screenman said:


> Maybe more practical to you but to me they are useless. Cleats all the way, Bet I can get my feet off the pedals quicker than you can reach down and release your tight toe straps, unless of course you wear them lose in which case why bother with them at all.



I've got toe straps on one bike and I wear them loose enough to slide my foot in and out: they make a considerable difference compared to my other bike which only has flat pedals.

Having said that, I will go clipless once I've got some spare cash, in which case the toe straps will go on t'other bike so I can wear normal shoes with them, as per the OP's point.


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## screenman (8 Oct 2011)

Like you Fnaar I also use recessed cleats, on some of my shoes/bikes.

Anyway this is a cycling forum, who wants to walk anywhere when we can ride.

Cleats all the way, be one with the bike not two separate items.


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## al-fresco (8 Oct 2011)

I got Shimano MT41 shoes and M520 pedals last month - instant convert. Walking's OK and riding is much better. I had that "clipped in" moment when I ground to a halt on a 1 in 6 - otherwise they've been great. I'll convert my other bikes to M520 pedals this month.


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## Brandane (8 Oct 2011)

I don't like cleats OR straps! Tried both and didn't get on with them so now use Wellgo pedals with grip pins. I did try to persevere with cleats; but having your foot spot welded in the same position all the time did not suit me. Despite taking advice on here and adjusting the cleat position/saddle height, I kept getting cramps in my left foot. Never had an issue with getting un-clipped so can't blame that.

At my level of cycling, I doubt very much whether the alleged gain in efficiency from using cleats is noticeable in any case. As you also point out, I can go into the pub/cafe at my destination without walking like a constipated tap-dancer .


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## screenman (8 Oct 2011)

When does somebody walking in recessed cleats look like you describe.

I suggest you never did get your cleats set correctly if you had problems.


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## Rob500 (8 Oct 2011)

gavroche said:


> But awkward if you have to do any walking though! Each man to his own. I think with straps , I have the best of both worlds. Anyone else think like me?



When I got my bike, 2nd hand Defy, the bloke had put strapped pedals on because he assumed I wouldn't want the clipless variety. I was happy to see that because (i) The idea of clipless scared me. (ii) I couldn't have bought the shoes at the time. My thought was, 'I'll get used to the bike and riding again then I'll upgrade the pedals.' But tbh, I'm not going to. I like the pedals the way they are.


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## Norm (8 Oct 2011)

I've got clipless on my road bikes and flats on the MTB, but I think that toe clips feel easier and more natural when starting and stopping.

The comment about them needing to be tight to be of any use considers only the (potential) efficiency benefits of toe clips. If you feel the need to be tightly strapped to the bike, then clipless might be the better option but that ignores the extra security, less chance to slip or to be bounced off the pedal, and the benefit of having your foot in the correct position in relation to the pedal's axle. On top of that, toe clips allow the option of wearing normal shoes - important if your bike is for riding to school, for instance, and you are required to turn up in uniform.


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## HLaB (8 Oct 2011)

Each to their own but I found straps more awkward dragging when I wasn't in and foot removal erratic (probably because I was wearing different shoes) and I had a few strap moments  If you want to wear normal shoes, there's always double-sided (flat/clip) pedals.


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## Hip Priest (8 Oct 2011)

I have toe clips. I find them useful for holding my feet in place. I don't have them tight enough to provide any other benefits, but I'd find it a pain to have to loosen the straps prior to stopping. 

I'm planning to try SPDs in the near future.


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## danger mouse (8 Oct 2011)

Straps for me. I keep feeling I should have shoes and cleats but not fully convinced by the advantages.

You do have to get the tension correct or numb feet ensue.

Im well versed in getting out in and out of them so cleats will probably be the same (eventually).


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## HLaB (8 Oct 2011)

danger mouse said:


> Im well versed in getting out in and out of them so cleats will probably be the same (eventually).



I wouldn't say its the same, there's much less faff with clips


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## YahudaMoon (8 Oct 2011)

You can get cleated shoes in many forms nowadays. The mountain bike shoe aint great for walking in though OK. Touring shoes are just like trainers, well some are. You can get formal shoes for work/weddings ect. Ive got a pair of cleated Hiking Boots. Fantastic. You can take your bike out then go running up n down mountains leaving the bike in the valleys


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## marshmella (8 Oct 2011)

I was as cynical as anyone about going clipless, but since getting some shimano M324 pedals which are flat one side and clipped the other, i've been converted. I also use recessed cleats which are fine for walking as i found out last month when i had to leave the bike at work due to mechanical failure and bus/walk home. Been clipless for a couple of months now, and yes, have had the obligatory "moment" but i haven't regretted the change.


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## bigjim (8 Oct 2011)

I ride fine with just flat grippy platform pedals and trainers. When out with the club I find that I stay on the pedal at stops longer than the clipless mob and I'm faster away from a stop than them as they have that fraction of time lost clipping in whilst I'm already pedalling away. I'm also just as fast, up or downhill. Still like clipless though. It's just that my knees hate them.


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## Silver Fox (8 Oct 2011)

Used to have cleats on the road bike which suited that style of riding. Tried them on the mtb but never really took to them, FiveTens and Burgtec Flats work just fine for me off road. Each to their own.


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## screenman (8 Oct 2011)

I must say I did use straps and clips myself up to 20 years ago, embrace technology.

Clipped in all the time, and to the guy that can get away faster because he does not have to get clipped in, well lost efficiency over the overall distance would soon negate any perceived advantage.


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## Black Sheep (8 Oct 2011)

screenman said:


> Maybe more practical to you but to me they are useless. Cleats all the way, Bet I can get my feet off the pedals quicker than you can reach down and release your tight toe straps, unless of course you wear them lose in which case why bother with them at all.



I used to use toe clips and had them really quite tight and could get my feet out easily, quickly and without releasing them. 
I did used to tighten them each time I got on. 

I switched to flats on the mtb for a while and then when I got the road bike put toe clips on again, resuming my usual practice. 


I've since gone clipless and wouldn't go back despite having had one moment where I managed to pull my foot loose (without twisting) 

I've also had my legs cramp once or twice, but seem to be ok now.


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## apollo179 (8 Oct 2011)

gavroche said:


> But awkward if you have to do any walking though! Each man to his own. I think with straps , I have the best of both worlds. Anyone else think like me?



Yes i think i agree although in actualitey i use neither just plain pedals but will buy straps idc.


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## Alexvs (8 Oct 2011)

I just bought the M520 spd pedals and some specialized shoes and hoping I can get used to them. Struggling to get the original clip pedals off at the moment but can't wait to try them once fitted. I've already had one slip and fall which was only on my second day riding my new bike after not being able to get out of the clips quick enough and slid out in front of a car but luckily they stopped and I survived with just some cuts and bruises. Also don't like the clips as going round long ascending bends they manage to hit the ground while cycling.


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## bigjim (8 Oct 2011)

> Clipped in all the time, and to the guy that can get away faster because he does not have to get clipped in, well lost efficiency over the overall distance would soon negate any perceived advantage.


Got any stats to prove that statement? 
I've been using clipless for 5 years before I came off and broke my arm. I therefore have some experience and knowledge of the efficiency of the two systems. There is no advantage at all in overall distance. Maybe if you are riding the TDF which I am not, and remember they use what the sponsors require them to use. To say that they have an advantage over flats for the average rider is IMO nonsense. [I can outride guys in clipless and there are guys in clipless that can outride me.] It's not about the pedals. There are advantages and disadvantages in both systems. To embrace technology because it is available is not the right reason to change.


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## MacB (8 Oct 2011)

bigjim said:


> Got any stats to prove that statement?
> I've been using clipless for 5 years before I came off and broke my arm. I therefore have some experience and knowledge of the efficiency of the two systems. There is no advantage at all in overall distance. Maybe if you are riding the TDF which I am not, and remember they use what the sponsors require them to use. To say that they have an advantage over flats for the average rider is IMO nonsense. [I can outride guys in clipless and there are guys in clipless that can outride me.] It's not about the pedals. There are advantages and disadvantages in both systems. To embrace technology because it is available is not the right reason to change.



Interesting, did you find you altered your pedalling style at all between the two systems?


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## screenman (8 Oct 2011)

Seems a bit like the helmet debate. How do you know that you would not have broke both arms if you had been riding quaint old flats compared with nice modern cleats?

Just a thought you guys using good old fashioned toe clips and straps, do you use cleats? are they the nail on type.


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## youngoldbloke (8 Oct 2011)

Using flat pedals - how do you pull through the pedal stroke with the upper foot when climbing out of the saddle? 
I just couldn't use flat pedals now. I used to use clips and straps AND shoeplates* - You could NOT get your feet out without flicking the quick release on the strap. I also found it impossible to use trainer type shoes - indeed any shoe with a ridged sole - with straps, as the sole interfered with sliding out the foot, and unless the straps were tight their use was pointless. So specific cycling shoes with a smooth sole were essential. The big advantage of clipless is that firm connection with the pedal and efficient transfer of energy throughout the pedal stroke, without the discomfort of tight straps.
*Track cyclists today use straps with cleats.


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## screenman (8 Oct 2011)

Not forgetting the damage toe clips used to do to my school shoes and trainers come to that.

Colour tv what do you guys think? is it all it is made out to be or should I stick to my black and white.


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## bigjim (8 Oct 2011)

> Interesting, did you find you altered your pedalling style at all between the two systems?


I lost a bit of confidence when I came off whilst clipped in and broke my arm. I'm not sure that it would have been any different outcome whilst on Platforms, but I since have had quite a few emergency stops whilst using platforms and to me it seems easier/quicker to just come off the pedal straight onto the floor. There are more escape routes on Platforms. 
I did not change my pedaling style but my body did. I noticed that using Platforms my foot, calves, thighs were constantly moving as my cadence changed or the amount of effort needed changed. My theory for what it is worth is that using flat pedals enables the body to choose which muscles it wants to use in order to deliver the power required. I.e it is my bodys choice not Mr Shimanos. I found it easier to pedal uphill as there is a greater surface to push down on and all the muscles in the leg and feet can contribute rather than all the force being applied through one small area. I,m sure we all have our individual style on a bike but once you are clipped,stapped in you lose that individuality and your body is forced into what can be an unatural position. we don,t all walk or run the same way, why should we all pedal a bike the same way?
There again what do I know. You have to do your own thing, whichever way you want to ride, but do what works for you and your body. Not what fashion or the marketing people want you to do.
have a read of this My link.

Jim


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## jdtate101 (8 Oct 2011)

I tried toe straps, just couldn't get my feet in off the lights at all, was always faffing about not looking where I was going. Got SPD-SL's now and they are a godsend. Can clip in in seconds without looking, and the ability to push/pull up steep climbs is fantastic. Would never go back to straps or open pedals now.


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## Jezston (8 Oct 2011)

I use flat wooden pedals and hammer two nails through each foot into the wood before every ride. There is no better clipless system than this.


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## barongreenback (8 Oct 2011)

Jezston said:


> I use flat wooden pedals and hammer two nails through each foot into the wood before every ride. There is no better clipless system than this.



Just 2? You wuss. Real men use a nail gun and hammer at least 5 for maximum pedal to foot contact.


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## oldfatfool (8 Oct 2011)

Due to an old leg break I am left having to pedal with foot angled with my toe out at about 7 mins past in order for my knee to be bending in a vertical plane with no horizontal movement. I am worried that spd cleats will not allow me this degree of angle from 90o on the pedal, or will they??


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## jdtate101 (8 Oct 2011)

oldfatfool said:


> Due to an old leg break I am left having to pedal with foot angled with my toe out at about 7 mins past in order for my knee to be bending in a vertical plane with no horizontal movement. I am worried that spd cleats will not allow me this degree of angle from 90o on the pedal, or will they??



Most shoes allow you to adjust the position and angle of the cleat, so this should not be an issue (within reason). I'd say go down to your LBS and ask them to try you with a pair, best way to find out.


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## Norm (8 Oct 2011)

Jezston said:


> I use flat wooden pedals and hammer two nails through each foot into the wood before every ride. There is no better clipless system than this.


 Wood? Pah. Straight into the bones.


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## Hip Priest (8 Oct 2011)

Jezston said:


> I use flat wooden pedals and hammer two nails through each foot into the wood before every ride. There is no better clipless system than this.



Wuss!! I've actually had my feet surgically attached to the cranks.


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## Davidc (8 Oct 2011)

I've used clipless, toe-clips and straps, and plain flat pedals.

The benefit of clipless over toe-clips done up tight enough to hold the foot firmly but not stop it being pulled out for stops is IME minimal if not zero. In my circles years ago the very tight strapping youngoldbloke advocates was frowned on, firm strapping was always what was used, and to suggest that that was ineffective is just wrong.

The benefit of either over plain flat pedals is considerable.

I've used clps and straps for so long, and have adapted to clipless well enough that the time to engage either is minimal, and I find no difference in the anticipation process for removal. I last had a 'moment' decades ago, with straps and clips.

I find clipless hard on the knees and am still wondering if their use was part of a problem earlier in the year. I'm planning to change back to clips and straps next month for the winter and will reconsider next year.

I have no strap plastic toe clips on my round town bike. They have no performanc benefit but are good for keeping toes and tyres apart.


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## deptfordmarmoset (8 Oct 2011)

oldfatfool said:


> Due to an old leg break I am left having to pedal with foot angled with my toe out at about 7 mins past in order for my knee to be bending in a vertical plane with no horizontal movement. I am worried that spd cleats will not allow me this degree of angle from 90o on the pedal, or will they??



Unless I'm having a brainwave, 7 minutes past is 21 degrees off the straight. I don't think you'll find any off the shelf SPD cleats to accommodate that amount. What I don't quite get is how you manage not to hit the chainstay at that angle. You must have to have the arch of your foot on the pedal to avoid that.


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## Orange (8 Oct 2011)

I use toe clips and have nver tried the modern stuff with cleats. Many people write about problems with knees using these. Why is this? What causes it? How do you prevent it? How prevalent is it?

Would like to know the downsides before considering if the financial outlay is worth the risks.


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## dave r (8 Oct 2011)

I'm running clips and straps on my fixed, I do the straps up only just enough to hold my feet, but not that tight that I can't get my feet out when I want, I only adjust the straps about once a month, they work loose over a period of time. I do most of my fixed riding in steel toe capped boots or trainers. I have clipless on my geared bike, Time Freerides. With clipless I'm restricted to cycle shoes only and the geared bike is used for Sunday rides only. my experience is that the clipless pedals gives me no advantage over toeclips.


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## bigjim (8 Oct 2011)

I note with amusement the comments on here of those that find it incomprehensible that not everybody wants to follow the latest and so called greatest thing that is on offer for their latest, fastest, lightest bike. The fact that it may not suit their riding style or may actually cause damage to their knees is evidently of no consequence at all. If the pros wear it/fit it/use it then they must follow suit. A marketing mans dream.


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## pepecat (8 Oct 2011)

Nah, I don't like clipless. Tried it, and i was so twitchy about it I didn't want to go out on my bike. Which kinda defeats the whole purpose really, so I put the toeclips back on. MUCH happier with them, and have no trouble getting my feet in and out.


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## MacB (9 Oct 2011)

bigjim said:


> I note with amusement the comments on here of those that find it incomprehensible that not everybody wants to follow the latest and so called greatest thing that is on offer for their latest, fastest, lightest bike. The fact that it may not suit their riding style or may actually cause damage to their knees is evidently of no consequence at all. If the pros wear it/fit it/use it then they must follow suit. A marketing mans dream.



Marketing mumbo jumbo writ large  Appreciated your previous reply and had a read of your blog link, my own experience wasn't a million miles away. Though I gave the clipless pedals a lot less time, one fall with no injury, and not enough perceived benefit, was enough to turn me off them. However I don't disagree with those that will cite the benefit when climbing out of the saddle or sprinting hard. But I only ever sprint for my own amusement and never flat out like a proper sprinter would. I don't race, will never race and can climb well enough for my needs as it is. Anything clipless could give me, climbing wise, would be dwarfed by the benefit losing 4 stone would give me  

But, being a pedantic type, I do take issue with some of the claims, or almost religious mantras, trotted out by clipless disciples:-

you will fall but it's just funny not dangerous and the only thing hurt is your pride - this, as your own tale evidences, is absolute bollocks, but there does seem to be almost an 'omerta' around admissions of this nature. It's also perfectly feasible to speculate around the really unlucky ones that don't survive to relate their tale of a 'clipless moment'.

the performance difference is like night and day - let's see the evidence then, Norm on here gave some detail as to how much faster he felt he was on clipless for a given ride. But most resort to ridiculous hyperbole which the, admittedly small amount of, available data would indicate just cannot be accurate. I would also question exactly what flat pedals and shoes they have ridden in for their comparative purposes. I use pinned platforms and, with grippy soled MTB trainers, they allow for a very secure ride.

an end to feet slipping off pedals and poor foot positioning - again what do they compare this to and how poor could their ability be around putting a foot on a pedal? I've not suffered from any foot slippage issues and I enjoy the fact that I can reposition my foot in motion and choose a different position for the sort of pedalling I'm currently doing. For example I would tend to pedal nearer the front of my foot when pushing hard but for pootling, or a long climb, then the pedal will be more central to my foot.

discomfort with clipless - hotfoot, cramps, knee pain and other related issues - these all get dismissed as just being a setup thing and what you really need is to spend more money on inserts/fitting/shoes/pedals to resolve it. What's often ignored in this is your own personal fitness levels and riding posture. The same as with bike setup, you can get it all spot on for you when you're pedalling well and feel good. As you tire, and your posture slumps, then injuries can occur, being unable to reposition your feet can make this worse. 


All that aside I've always been a big fan of the latest gadgets and I'll buy into things just to be able to eliminate anything external I could possibly blame for not reaching a standard. For golf I have custom made clubs and only ever use the same high quality golf balls. But that's mainly vanity and I know that any performance gain is probably mental over physical. I play to a decent mid single figures handicap and I could do this with any reasonable OTP set of clubs and cheapish golf balls. But when I was a higher handicap I was convinced that the equipment played a far bigger part than it does in comparison to the physical. Pros in every sport know this and also know that it's only at a high level that top end equipment gives the biggest returns or that miniscule gains matter. But you don't have to travel that far down the food chain from pro level before the returns are too small to be noticed.

For clipless pedals that means that if you don't race, sprint regularly or climb agressively then you're just another fish on a marketing hook. Absolutely nothing wrong with that, ride however you want in whatever kit you like, but there's no need to try and do the marketing job for the industry.


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## Norm (9 Oct 2011)

MacB said:


> Norm on here gave some detail as to how much faster he felt he was on clipless for a given ride. But most resort to ridiculous hyperbole which the, admittedly small amount of, available data would indicate just cannot be accurate. I would also question exactly what flat pedals and shoes they have ridden in for their comparative purposes. I use pinned platforms and, with grippy soled MTB trainers, they allow for a very secure ride.


 I did indeed. My first clipless ride was 2 minutes quicker over a 45 minute route than my previous fastest over the same route with toe clips or with flats. I acknowledge that there might be some other factors at play (different weather, working harder etc) but the route was a regular training ride of mine and I'd done it dozens of times, so I feel that first clipless run being about 5% faster than my previous best was significant. 

I do still believe that I am faster over any set distance with clipless because they are more efficient and I don't tire as quickly and easily.



MacB said:


> an end to feet slipping off pedals and poor foot positioning - again what do they compare this to and how poor could their ability be around putting a foot on a pedal? I've not suffered from any foot slippage issues and I enjoy the fact that I can reposition my foot in motion and choose a different position for the sort of pedalling I'm currently doing. For example I would tend to pedal nearer the front of my foot when pushing hard but for pootling, or a long climb, then the pedal will be more central to my foot.


 My son, and many inexperienced cyclists, rides with his instep over the pedal axle. Clipless (or toeclips) will address that and will get him used to correct placement. 

However, I agree with your summary, MacB. Even if I do believe there is an advantage on the first point above, is a 5% performance advantage enough to put myself at risk from a "clipless moment" which so many dismiss as being inevitable and all part of the fun. At my age and size, I can't imagine that, when it happens (and I've come close a couple of times) that I will find it in any way amusing to be laid out on the tarmac.


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## Jezston (9 Oct 2011)

I use clipless pedals because I require foot retention for riding fixed or using a coaster brake. The benefits there are undeniable and essential.


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## oldfatfool (9 Oct 2011)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> Unless I'm having a brainwave, 7 minutes past is 21 degrees off the straight. I don't think you'll find any off the shelf SPD cleats to accommodate that amount. What I don't quite get is how you manage not to hit the chainstay at that angle. You must have to have the arch of your foot on the pedal to avoid that.



I have a rigid toe cage fitted, when it was mounted square on the pedal I was getting intense knee pain after a long ride, I have since attached it 'off center' so yes the edge of my foot is overhanging the pedal and my heel just avoids scraping the crank. The only problem is the cage is only able to be attached with 1 bolt in this position so on a long ride tends to keep slackening and the cage rotating when foot off the pedals, which using cleats would solve. Looking at it again it is probably actually closer to '5 past, 15degs' but I don't think a cleat would allow for that either!! Going to have to come up with a way of fitting the cage more solidly I had to tighten it at least a dozen times on the SOM audax last week


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## Crankarm (9 Oct 2011)

Luddites - there are these modern pedals and corresponding shoes called SPDs. They are marvellous. You will wonder why it took you so long to use them. You can easily walk in SPDs.

 .


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## Mugshot (9 Oct 2011)

MacB said:


> For clipless pedals that means that if you don't race, sprint regularly or climb agressively then you're just another fish on a marketing hook. Absolutely nothing wrong with that, ride however you want in whatever kit you like, but there's no need to try and do the marketing job for the industry.



I'm no fish my friend. Like so many others on here I came back to cycling after a 20 year lay off. 20 years ago my bike had toe straps and I loved them, coming back to cycling I find that clipless appears to be the way technology has moved things, so I got them, because I prefer the feeling of being fixed to the pedals on my road bike (Both my mountain bike and my hybrid have bog standard out of the shop flats)
20 years ago I changed gears using little levers on my down tube, but I don't anymore. Perhaps I should have looked for an antique on ebay rather than allow myself to become sucked into this obvious marketing ploy!
Gear changers on the handlebars? Aluminium? Carbon? 20+ gears? I'm not going to be a slave to the marketeers, I'm going to stick it to the man. Where's my Grifter with its 3 speed Sturmey Archer hub these days?


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## Norm (9 Oct 2011)

Mugshot said:


> 20 years ago I changed gears using little levers on my down tube, but I don't anymore. Perhaps I should have looked for an antique on ebay rather than allow myself to become sucked into this obvious marketing ploy!


 What has a preference on pedal design got to do with downtube shifters?

It's this sort of rubbish which is not only completely unnecessary but it also makes you look like an arse (IMO) and it leads to needless polarisation. 

You've tried it, you prefer it, congratulations, I wish you years of incident free cycling. Others tried it and didn't like it, so have chosen not to continue with them. 

Personally, I think it takes more courage and self-awareness to spend money trying a system and then dismiss it than it does to blithely continue with something which may not be working.

If someone doesn't like clipless, having tried it for many thousands of miles, they should be able to choose not to use them without being called luddites.


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## bigjim (9 Oct 2011)

> The only problem is the cage is only able to be attached with 1 bolt in this position so on a long ride tends to keep slackening and the cage



Use a cable tie or 2, to secure the cage to the pedal. Stops the bolt loosening.

*Salesman* "there are these modern pedals and corresponding shoes called SPDs" *Customer.* "right. Best be modern. I'll have a pair" salesman "now what about shoes" "shoes?" "oh yes you need shoes" "I've got shoes" " No sir. You have to have the special shoes for these pedals" "So If I can't use the pedals without the shoes? What's that you say? I can't walk very far either in these shoes? What? I have to spend some time repositioning them so I don't damage my knees, or suffer hotspots? I also have to practise so I don't fall off and alter the tension so I can get out of them in time in an emergency? Hmmm"
Ya can't beat progress tha knows.


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## Hip Priest (9 Oct 2011)

If riding clipless is so good, then surely the advantages speak for themselves. I don't understand why some of the clipless evangelists are getting so snippy and defensive with people who choose to use clips or flats.

By the way, I hope all you luddites have got your order in for an electronic Campag group set.


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## Mugshot (9 Oct 2011)

Norm said:


> What has a preference on pedal design got to do with downtube shifters?
> 
> It's this sort of rubbish which is not only completely unnecessary but it also makes you look like an arse (IMO) and it leads to needless polarisation.
> 
> ...



WOW. I really believe you should learn to read and digest a thread, then try to understand the context in which things are being posted. As you appear to be hard of thinking and have therefore resorted to calling me an arse let me try to explain it for you.
MacB has suggested that anybody that uses clipless pedals that does not " race, sprint regularly or climb agressively" is merely a patsy to the marketing guys. I do not believe I am, I am pretty sure that technology had moved on from when I had last had a decent road bike (20 years ago), so that in the same way as build materials had changed and gear shifters had changed, pedals had changed too. It therefore has everything to do with down shifters, things change, my adoption of those innovations does not automatically make me "just another fish on a marketing hook" I am resonably confident that clipless pedals are more common than toe clips and straps so that's what I got, not because an advert told me to.
I have not suggested it is the only system worth having, I state quite clearly that on my two other bikes I have bog standard pedals, they've even got reflectors, and I can assure you I try them on a regualr basis, so I most certainly have not and will not blithely continue to use something which doesnt work nor have I encouraged others to do so.
I also didn't call anyone a luddite.
Thank you for wishing me years of trouble free cycling though, you too.


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## Norm (9 Oct 2011)

All of which is completely irrelevant as I thought the rest of your post was considered. It was only the one paragraph attempting to link a preference to clipless to the downtube shifters which was unnecessary and which leads to the polarisation into two tribes. 

Or, in a tone of condescension which you might recognise, I really believe you should learn to read and digest _an individual post_, then try to understand the _specifics of what was _posted. 

As I'm hard of thinking,  I'd also appreciate it if you could point out where I called you an arse.


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## Mugshot (9 Oct 2011)

Norm said:


> As I'm hard of thinking,  I'd also appreciate it if you could point out where I called you an arse.





Norm said:


> It's this sort of rubbish which is not only completely unnecessary but it also makes you look like an arse (IMO) and it leads to needless polarisation.





Norm said:


> All of which is completely irrelevant as I thought the rest of your post was considered. It was only the one paragraph attempting to link a preference to clipless to the downtube shifters which was unnecessary and which leads to the polarisation into two tribes.



I'm not seeing the link, I've read and re-read my post. 
I'll try again for you, had I looked very hard I could have found a bike which had down tube shifters and toe clips just like I had when I was a lad. However as neither of those things are so readily available I chose to have what appears to be the most common system on todays modern road bikes, I didn't buy them because a salesman told that they wear them in the TDF as MacB seems to be suggesting.
You may also note that I didn't say I preferred clipless, should we mention reading posts properly again


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## Norm (9 Oct 2011)

I don't see much to be gained from continuing this, I think the hard of thinking is there for all to see.


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## Mugshot (9 Oct 2011)

I agree entirely


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## bobg (9 Oct 2011)

I like clipless or toe clips or nothing, STI or dowtube, indexed or friction, Campag Shimano or Sturmey Archer, Brooks B 17 saddles or big fat sprung ones or modern anatomically designed ones. Old Raleigh Roadsters, 50's club tourers or modern lightweights. Whats the problem, it depends on your mood, where you are going and why and what you want from the sport/hobby / obsession....


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## deptfordmarmoset (9 Oct 2011)

oldfatfool said:


> I have a rigid toe cage fitted, when it was mounted square on the pedal I was getting intense knee pain after a long ride, I have since attached it 'off center' so yes the edge of my foot is overhanging the pedal and my heel just avoids scraping the crank. The only problem is the cage is only able to be attached with 1 bolt in this position so on a long ride tends to keep slackening and the cage rotating when foot off the pedals, which using cleats would solve. Looking at it again it is probably actually closer to '5 past, 15degs' but I don't think a cleat would allow for that either!! Going to have to come up with a way of fitting the cage more solidly I had to tighten it at least a dozen times on the SOM audax last week



It's difficult to imagine but I wonder whether power grip pedal straps might help. They mount at an angle so you might be able to mount one ''the wrong way'' round, allowing the heel to point inwards a little while still giving a firm grip on the pedal. I've never actually seen them in real life though but it's worth a thought anyway. 

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=28933


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## MacB (9 Oct 2011)

Mugshot said:


> WOW. I really believe you should learn to read and digest a thread, then try to understand the context in which things are being posted. As you appear to be hard of thinking and have therefore resorted to calling me an arse let me try to explain it for you.
> *MacB has suggested that anybody that uses clipless pedals that does not " race, sprint regularly or climb agressively" is merely a patsy to the marketing guys*. I do not believe I am, I am pretty sure that technology had moved on from when I had last had a decent road bike (20 years ago), so that in the same way as build materials had changed and gear shifters had changed, pedals had changed too. It therefore has everything to do with down shifters, things change, my adoption of those innovations does not automatically make me "just another fish on a marketing hook" I am resonably confident that clipless pedals are more common than toe clips and straps so that's what I got, not because an advert told me to.
> I have not suggested it is the only system worth having, I state quite clearly that on my two other bikes I have bog standard pedals, they've even got reflectors, and I can assure you I try them on a regualr basis, so I most certainly have not and will not blithely continue to use something which doesnt work nor have I encouraged others to do so.
> I also didn't call anyone a luddite.
> Thank you for wishing me years of trouble free cycling though, you too.



Actually I didn't suggest that, there are valid reasons for using them outside the race/sprint/climb, you may prefer the image, the sensation, or feel that you get enough gains to make it worthwhile. I fully support anyone in this choice I just dislike those that then parrot the marketing myths as if they know what they are talking about. Examples of this are:-

night and day difference - if you don't race/sprint/climb agressively then this is patently nonsense and I would challenge anyone to present any evidence to the contrary - I will note here that the manufacturers don't dare make these claims and with good reason

clipless moments only hurt your pride and are always funny - again this is patently nonsense - it is falling off your bike, to dismiss the risk of injury/damage to you or your bike is to deny reality

once you try clipless you'll never go back - this is untrue people do for a variety of reasons, from plain old personal preference to resolving a setup/pain issue

then there are the explicit, or implicit, assumptions - if you moved from clipless to flats or straps it's due to a 'fault' with you rather than the possibility that, for the way you ride, the payoff from clipless just didn't pan out. Always in the background of these comments is the assumption that 'proper' cyclists ride clipless and there's often a 'whiff' of sneering.


Look at threads, and info, across the web, someone asks about going clipless and the 'yahoos' jump in with total claptrap, you'll go a million miles faster, night and day, you'll never look back, you'll fall but it'll only be funny, it's a revelation and I almost fill my pants just trying to describe it!!!!!!! Then try asking them to quantify, and support, their claims and suddenly it al goes quiet.


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## apollo179 (9 Oct 2011)

Mugshot said:


> I'm not seeing the link, I've read and re-read my post.
> I'll try again for you, had I looked very hard I could have found a bike which had down tube shifters and toe clips just like I had when I was a lad. However as neither of those things are so readily available I chose to have what appears to be the *most common system on todays modern road bikes*, I didn't buy them because a salesman told that they wear them in the TDF as MacB seems to be suggesting.
> You may also note that I didn't say I preferred clipless, should we mention reading posts properly again



Surely the most common is just plain old flat footrests.
Assuming the guys on the tdf use clipless i can see that clipless has an application in some circumstances but i seriously doubt they are suitable to be recommended generally or in reality are the most common. 
The tdf is interlinked with marketing all this unnessecary new fangled stuff anyway.


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## Mugshot (9 Oct 2011)

MacB said:


> For clipless pedals that means that if you don't race, sprint regularly or climb agressively then you're just another fish on a marketing hook.



The quote doesn't seem to leave much room for ambiguity, however if I have misunderstood you then I apologise 
I agree with what you've posted, in particular I too struggle with the idea that hitting the deck with your bike on top of you and a line of cars behind you is amusing, I'd be mortified and also sore I would imagine.
As long as you're out and about and turning a gear it doesn't really matter what you're on or what's on what you've got, this is why the term BSO should be banned


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## Mugshot (9 Oct 2011)

apollo179 said:


> Surely the most common is just plain old flat footrests.



Most of the stuff that I looked at didn't seem to come with pedals at all, however if you wanted a system which held your foot to the pedal then clipless seemed far more prevalent than toe clips , perhaps I looked in the wrong places


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## MacB (9 Oct 2011)

Mugshot said:


> The quote doesn't seem to leave much room for ambiguity, however if I have misunderstood you then I apologise
> I agree with what you've posted, in particular I too struggle with the idea that hitting the deck with your bike on top of you and a line of cars behind you is amusing, I'd be mortified and also sore I would imagine.
> As long as you're out and about and turning a gear it doesn't really matter what you're on or what's on what you've got, this is why the term BSO should be banned




 that's the world of the 'rant' for you, I knew what I meant but can see the ambiguity there, especially if you take that sentence on its own without the following one


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## MacB (9 Oct 2011)

YahudaMoon said:


> insert random image or comment along lines of 'this is my current favourite thread'



anyone amused by these sort of additions to threads is destined to run out of laughter a long time before your stamina gives way...or did you have some sort of purpose?


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## YahudaMoon (9 Oct 2011)

^^^^^^^^^^^^Images and comments have been removed that I myself had contributed on this thread and other threads


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## YahudaMoon (9 Oct 2011)

OK then. I feel my actions . sense of humour are not welcome. So I think its best I dont post anymore comments on Cyclechat . Thanks. Bye . Enjoy


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## peelywally (9 Oct 2011)

hotspots sore knees cant clip out ,

are you guys cycling to Lourdes  




just get flats who cares


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## Mugshot (9 Oct 2011)

YahudaMoon said:


> OK then. I feel my actions . sense of humour are not welcome. So I think its best I dont post anymore comments on Cyclechat . Thanks. Bye . Enjoy



Did I miss something?


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## apollo179 (9 Oct 2011)

Mugshot said:


> Did I miss something?



Yahuddys had his picture of spiderman removed (presumably) by admin which he has (understandably) taken as a personal affront to his character and has stormed of the forum in a huff.


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## Mugshot (9 Oct 2011)

apollo179 said:


> Yahuddys had his picture of spiderman removed (presumably) by admin which he has (understandably) taken as a personal affront to his character and has stormed of the forum in a huff.



Thank you apollo, can't beat a good huff or a flounce in my opinion. I went out for a couple of hours so missed the excitement, I assume it was a particularly offensive picture of Spiderman unless the admin is a DC comics fan of course.


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## dave r (9 Oct 2011)

Jezston said:


> I use clipless pedals because I require foot retention for riding fixed or using a coaster brake. The benefits there are undeniable and essential.



I'm on toe clips and straps on my fixed, they provide all the foot retention I need.


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## dave r (9 Oct 2011)

Mugshot said:


> Thank you apollo, can't beat a good huff or a flounce in my opinion. I went out for a couple of hours so missed the excitement, I assume it was a particularly offensive picture of Spiderman unless the admin is a DC comics fan of course.



Mug shot like you I missed the excitement, I spent the morning cycling, came back and this threads into page five, and I missed yahudaMoons flounce


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## bigjim (9 Oct 2011)

> Mug shot like you I missed the excitement, I spent the morning cycling, came back and this threads into page five, and I missed yahudaMoons flounce


If you were on clipless you could have got back a lot quicker and not missed it  Or were you clipped in anyway?


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## HLaB (9 Oct 2011)

Jezston said:


> I use flat wooden pedals and hammer two nails through each foot into the wood before every ride. There is no better clipless system than this.



Thats stone age technology, have you though of an upgrade this is more efficient (as long as you dont fancy a cafe stop and sleep with your bike and can live with blasphemy!)


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## Alexvs (9 Oct 2011)

I had my pedals and cleats fitted today by my LBS as couldn't get the original pedals off and they were more than happy to help and give me some riding tips. After a 5 mile ride home I can say that I believe it will improve my riding, especially on hills I just felt more consistency in my cycling. It's also alot easier than I expected getting in and out of therm which is a bonus as wasn't looking forward to that. Think I'll be sticking with them, just need some tweaking on position I think which will come with getting used to them.


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## apollo179 (9 Oct 2011)

Mugshot said:


> Thank you apollo, can't beat a good huff or a flounce in my opinion. I went out for a couple of hours so missed the excitement, I assume it was a particularly offensive picture of Spiderman unless the admin is a DC comics fan of course.



No it was a totally innocuous picture of spiderman - i cant really remember that clearly anthing about it other than it was not offensive. I suspect it was basically just off topic , not relevant and the moderator wanted to deter people posting random spurious pictures. Not worth getting to upset over - ive had complete threads worth of posts wiped out by the moderator. He allways gives a reason though so presumably did to yahoody.


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## dave r (9 Oct 2011)

bigjim said:


> If you were on clipless you could have got back a lot quicker and not missed it  Or were you clipped in anyway?



I was on the geared bike so I was clipped in, it was the gale that was blowing that slowed me down.


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## albion (10 Oct 2011)

I considered going back to cleats or even straps but priority is comfort over speed.

On a 90 mile ride the other day my feet were getting numb so am hopeful the extra platform and grip will ensure it is minimised.


I do recall that when I used CLEATS foot numbness was more of a problem so I'm now giving these a try. From Tesco of all places! http://virtuebike.co...oom/pedal12.jpg


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## bigjim (10 Oct 2011)

I've some of those. Got mine from Clas Ohlson. I think they were on offer for a fiver. Nice light pedal that enable you to put a lot of force through the pedal, especially on hills. I really like them. I filed grooves on mine between the nodules to give me even more grip. Especially good for trackstanding or cycling uphill out of the saddle. Good choice.


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## HLaB (10 Oct 2011)

albion said:


> I considered going back to cleats or even straps but priority is comfort over speed.
> 
> On a 90 mile ride the other day my feet were getting numb so am hopeful the extra platform and grip will ensure it is minimised.
> 
> ...



If you want to go back to cleats try a pedal with a larger contact area and/or a different retention system and/or new shoes, whatever you do good luck


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## screenman (10 Oct 2011)

Or decent soles, a quality shoe will spread the load.


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## albion (10 Oct 2011)

Add to that knee problems.I also recall that when it was minus 8 I had to bung some thick sorbothane in my cleated Shimano shoes to prevent an onset of ice burn.


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## g00se (10 Oct 2011)

oldfatfool said:


> I have a rigid toe cage fitted, when it was mounted square on the pedal I was getting intense knee pain after a long ride, I have since attached it 'off center' so yes the edge of my foot is overhanging the pedal and my heel just avoids scraping the crank. The only problem is the cage is only able to be attached with 1 bolt in this position so on a long ride tends to keep slackening and the cage rotating when foot off the pedals, which using cleats would solve. Looking at it again it is probably actually closer to '5 past, 15degs' but I don't think a cleat would allow for that either!! Going to have to come up with a way of fitting the cage more solidly I had to tighten it at least a dozen times on the SOM audax last week



Hi. Have a look at Time ATAC pedals. They're Time's MTB 2-hole clipless pedal. They'll fit SPD shoes. The cleats will disengage either heel-out or heel-in and depending on which shoe you install the cleat, you'll either have 11 or 17 degrees on each side of centre. With that and the freedom to offset the cleat on the shoe by about 5 or 6 degrees, you could end up with 23 degrees before you break out.

Also, with that much offset, it might be easier to unclip heel-in with the ATACs.

The Time pedals also have a lovely 'clang' clipping in and out.

Speedplay pedals would be another option for loads of float (play) compared to SPD or even ATAC, but they aren't cheap.


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## albion (13 Oct 2011)

I gave those platform pedals a good test.They initially did not feel much different until the rain came. Rather than beig worse they seemed to be even better.Good indeed for hills so certainly a decent buy.


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## oldfatfool (13 Oct 2011)

g00se said:


> Hi. Have a look at Time ATAC pedals. They're Time's MTB 2-hole clipless pedal. They'll fit SPD shoes. The cleats will disengage either heel-out or heel-in and depending on which shoe you install the cleat, you'll either have 11 or 17 degrees on each side of centre. With that and the freedom to offset the cleat on the shoe by about 5 or 6 degrees, you could end up with 23 degrees before you break out.
> 
> Also, with that much offset, it might be easier to unclip heel-in with the ATACs.
> 
> ...



 Thanks both look interesting options, especially the speedplay just the price!


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