# Use of electric bikes by younger people.



## overmind (19 Apr 2020)

*disclaimer:* I realise that there are many legitimate reasons for having an electric bike (e.g. disability), and ultimately people can ride/driver whichever vehicle they want.

<Rant>
Why do I see so many young people travelling around on electric scooters/bikes? They have all that energy, why do they need electricity to help them.

A lady at my work got an electric scooter. After about 1 month she stopped using it. I asked her why? She said, "it is ok in the summer but in the autumn/winter you get cold standing on the platform since you are not moving". She has not used it since. I never get cold. In the winter I just put on more layers for insulation and since I am moving that keeps me warm too.

I am 54 and I travel by pushbike wherever possible. I love the simplicity of a traditional bike: no taxes, no fuel, simple mechanics. I love the fact that I get exercise doing something I enjoy. I love the endorphin rush when I stop and sit down after a long ride.

I do not understand the obsession with electric bikes. Granted, it is a bit easier to pedal but the bikes weigh a ton due to effectively carrying a car battery with you all over the place. In a few months years there will be the inevitable maintenance/electrical issue with the bikes and most will not get fixed either for economical or knowledge reasons. There are so many different incompatible brands. Perhaps when the market inevitably shrinks a standard will be established which will reduce the cost of maintenance.

A reasonably well maintained bike (e.g. oil the chain, pump up tyres, mend the odd puncture etc.) lasts ages before needing a service. When you get home you just put in in the shed. You do not need to recharge the battery.

Maybe it's just me but I have always preferred traditional non-electric bikes. So much simpler ...
</Rant>


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## Brandane (19 Apr 2020)

Wow! Where to start with that.......
Perhaps this bit....


overmind said:


> They have all that energy,


Maybe they don't, that's the point, basically.


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## SpokeyDokey (19 Apr 2020)

*Mod note:*

The somewhat provocative original thread title has been toned by a fair degree as a result of Mod intervention.


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## MontyVeda (19 Apr 2020)

Every time i get overtaken by someone on an electric bike, i think 'cheat!'

A workmate asked me if i had any advice on electric bikes... i told him to buy a proper bike.


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## glasgowcyclist (19 Apr 2020)

overmind said:


> I do not understand the obsession with electric bikes



If you consider the “e” in e-bike really stands for enabling then you’ll understand the appeal better.


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## HMS_Dave (19 Apr 2020)

One less car though right?


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## Brandane (19 Apr 2020)

Like them or not, what's the problem? They get people on bikes who otherwise probably wouldn't consider it.
Overtake me all you like, I don't worry about it. After all, most non battery assisted cyclists overtake me anyway.


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## CXRAndy (19 Apr 2020)

There are plenty of reasons to use an Ebike

Here are just a few

fun

Young rider new to cycling, finds it tough on hills,

Young person has long commute would tire out

I know a woman who can ride 100 miles with 10,000 ft ascent who uses an electric bike to go to work- so she arrives without sweating

I built a bike for my wife, she struggles for pace and it's demoralising for her. Now I have to draft her on inclines and headwinds. We go out for 20 mile rides often now


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## HMS_Dave (19 Apr 2020)

CXRAndy said:


> There are plenty of reasons to use an Ebike
> 
> Here are just a few
> 
> ...



Fun is not allowed...


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## Phaeton (19 Apr 2020)

MontyVeda said:


> Every time i get overtaken by someone on an electric bike, i think 'cheat!'


Who & what apart from your ego is being cheated?


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## rivers (19 Apr 2020)

My wife is a full time fitness instructor (teaches 16+ classes/week). So she is a pretty fit and healthy 30 something as far as most people would be concerned. But she also has an electric bike. Her muscles are so fatigued from teaching, but she still wants to be able to ride a bike. She uses it for commuting, and for joining me on days out. Something she wouldn't be able to do without the electric assistance. And sometimes I use it for commuting when my legs need a break. You don't like electric bikes, fine. But don't begrudge people who use them.


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## vickster (19 Apr 2020)

overmind said:


> *disclaimer:* I realise that there are many legitimate reasons for having an electric bike (e.g. disability), and ultimately people can ride/driver whichever vehicle they want.
> 
> <Rant>
> Why do I see so many young people travelling around on electric scooters/bikes? They have all that energy, why do they need electricity to help them.
> ...


Why does it actually matter to you? The maintenance of someone else’s bike isn’t your problem (any more than the maintenance of my non e-bikes are your problem) 

No issue here as long as they are being used legally (ie scooters not on roads or pavements) and safely


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## gbb (19 Apr 2020)

I dont see many / any kids / young people on electric bikes..meh, perhaps once.
Scooters ?, the reason is simple, speed and excitement...and just because you can.
Most humans I suspect are lazy by nature, not consciously but life has lots of temptation now, lots of toys, it's no wonder kids like them.


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## Smokin Joe (19 Apr 2020)

Why anyone buys an electric bike is nobody's business but their own. Not everyone likes cycling - ie most of the population - and if they want a cheap form of transport that requires little effort good luck to them. 

I wonder how many people feel "Cheated" when they are overtaken by sixty people sitting on their arses on a bus?


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## Brandane (19 Apr 2020)

I am old enough to be start thinking about the "What ifs" of my health, and cycling is included in that. As long as I am physically able, I am pretty sure I will continue to cycle (weather permitting!). However, who knows what is around the corner. I already have a dodgy left hip as a result of a cycling on ice accident. If it causes me pain in the future, an e-bike might be the perfect solution for keeping me on a bike.


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## Slick (19 Apr 2020)

Glad we cleared that up.


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## fossyant (19 Apr 2020)

Oh, if I could quote the original - I read it, then decided not to say anything.

Some folk don't want to arrive at their destination 'glowing' - so this helps. A colleague used to cycle in about the same distance as I did but didn't do it every day. His car park pass wasn't renewed so bought an ebike, so he can ride every day. I was doing 26 plus miles a day, that's quite alot to many folk.

I have a colleague who is a keen cyclist, active, but takes an adult scooter with her on the commute via train. Saves her a 25 minute walk to the office, but she's active, and gets changed. Many folk don't want that faff of getting into two sets of clothes.

eMTB's folk say they get them to cover twice the distance - that's OK if it's you, or you and mates with eMTB's. I know of someone who got rid of his eMTB as he was having to wait for eveyone at the top of hills. I regularly ride with an older chap who has an eMTB (late 60's). It allows him to keep up with us that are fitter. Yes, he is a bit quicker up a tricky descent, but not so much on a drag, where a fit rider can put power in. He's no faster downhill, but he can come out, otherwise he'd not be able to.

PS full suspension MTB's (and hard tails), assisted or not, are not for folk shy of doing maintenance. They need constant cleaning and maintaining due to the conditions used in.


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## welsh dragon (19 Apr 2020)

How about the reason they have one is because they want one an and they can afford it.

It really doesn't matter if you can see the point or not. You ride an ordinary bike because you want to. Others have a scooter, or an ebike, or a trike or a bent. Each to his or her own. Aa far as I am concerned, as long as they are getting out in the fresh air, who gives a stuff. And it isn't cheating. 

Ebikes are getting people out and about and doing exercise. However they do it doesn't matter.


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## Domus (19 Apr 2020)

I'm 65, 66 in two weeks time. Been cycling for 5 years come July, I ride a Carbon Ribble Ultegra in the Summer and an alloy Ribble with mudguards in the winter. Very happy with both. My next bike will more than likely be an E-bike. When? I can't say but I'm sure I'll know when the time comes.


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## Grant Fondo (19 Apr 2020)

Riding into the teeth of one of those February storms an electric motor would have been most welcome.


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## Phaeton (19 Apr 2020)

I still find this "Oh when I'm old" mindset very funny, I suspect perpetrated by people who have never ridden an e-bike


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## gbb (19 Apr 2020)

overmind said:


> *disclaimer:* I realise that there are many legitimate reasons for having an electric bike (e.g. disability), and ultimately people can ride/driver whichever vehicle they want.
> 
> <Rant>
> Why do I see so many young people travelling around on electric scooters/bikes? They have all that energy, why do they need electricity to help them.
> ...


You have to think about your position in life, not dissimilar to mine at 50. All the drive and energy in the world, immense pleasure from cycling, long long rides, sweating like a pig and grinning while you're doing it...you have to remember, (in a nice way) its us that are odd, not 'them'.
Most people aren't interested in fitness, how far they can ride, how fast they can go, a bike is simply a mode of transport that allows them to get out and about and enjoy a ride...without all the pain the pain and sweat that got 'us' where we are. What we enjoy, they do not, simple.


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## Smudge (19 Apr 2020)

I often think if i were younger, fitter and never had any health issues.... then i wouldn't have an ebike at all and would just stick to unassisted bicycles.
But then i remember back to when i actually was younger, fitter and never had any health issues...... i didn't only ride unassisted bicycles, i rode motorcycles as well.


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## Flying Dodo (19 Apr 2020)

In my bike shop, I've sold a number of electric bikes, and I'd say in the majority of cases, it's specifically to allow the owners to carry on cycling, where they're not able to ride a conventional bike as much as they want to. So for some, it's to allow them to go out for longer rides with their partner, for others it's because they physically don't have the strength for the regular commute, and for some, it's simply because at the end of a long day, they just can't face the strong headwind along the sea front.

It's not cheating - it's cycling with a bit of electric assistance.

They're still pedalling, and they're not in a car. That's the important thing.


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## fossyant (19 Apr 2020)

gbb said:


> You have to think about your position in life, not dissimilar to mine at 50.
> 
> its us that are odd, not 'them'.



This in spades. We are odd. A colleague of mine, who I sit next to at work, said 'wow you've been riding 16 miles most days since lockdown' - this is off road so I've not mentioned that it's harder. She's 30, slim etc etc, keeps 'fit', but I think we are a bit 'odd'. I've cycled all my life and felt nothing wrong with riding my legs off - some folk don't like feeling like that.

At 50, I wish I could get away with my colleague's lack of exercise at 30, but that's life - I put weight on easier.


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## HMS_Dave (19 Apr 2020)

I wonder if similar arguments were made when bicycle started to get a bunch of gears? Im not sure. But still, its a form of transport to many and not a form of exercise or sport. Many realise, including the young un's, especially in cities that its quicker to get there on a bicycle than a car. It is my understanding it's only cheating if you turn up to a cycling competition with e-assist when you're not supposed to.


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## Ming the Merciless (19 Apr 2020)

fossyant said:


> This in spades. We are odd. A colleague of mine, who I sit next to at work, said 'wow you've been riding 16 miles most days since lockdown' - this is off road so I've not mentioned that it's harder. She's 30, slim etc etc, keeps 'fit', but I think we are a bit 'odd'. I've cycled all my life and felt nothing wrong with riding my legs off - some folk don't like feeling like that.
> 
> At 50, I wish I could get away with my colleague's lack of exercise at 30, but that's life - I put weight on easier.



She isn’t getting away with it, if she isn’t exercising she isn’t fit.


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## Gunk (19 Apr 2020)

We hired one last year on holiday in Ireland (three regular bikes and an ebike) my wife wanted to try one and she loved it, I reluctantly had a go and it was bloody brilliant, no wonder so many are buying them.


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## Ming the Merciless (19 Apr 2020)

E bikes pah, F bikes are the new thing.


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## fossyant (19 Apr 2020)

YukonBoy said:


> She isn’t getting away with it, if she isn’t exercising she isn’t fit.



Well, they look like they do 'keep fit'. Bit like my neice. Signed up to do a 'tough mudder' type fun event, and she lasted about a mile before being carted off needing oxygen. The bit where I said have you been out running regularly got 'overlooked'.....


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## SkipdiverJohn (19 Apr 2020)

glasgowcyclist said:


> If you consider the “e” in e-bike really stands for enabling then you’ll understand the appeal better.



I think @overmind is making the point that most of the people who ride them, especially those small wheel scooter contraptions that are not even bikes of any sort, don't need to be "enabled" in order to get around. 
Most of them are a lot younger than me, and in theory ought to be a lot fitter than me. I managed to propel myself and an old steel bike around for 20 miles this morning, and will do some more miles in a minute. If we can do it, youngsters can do it instead of being lazy!


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## boydj (19 Apr 2020)

For many years I've been going out on club rides and always enjoy doing so. However, last year I found that the group was having to wait for me after any reasonable hill and I started to avoid the runs on hilly routes so as not to be a drag on the group. Now that I've turned 70 my next purchase, probably in the near future, will be an electric road bike which will let me stay with the group on the hills and let me get back to taking my turn on the front again, rather than hiding in the shelter of the pack. It should let me get out on the longer runs too, using the motor sparingly, hopefully.

E-bikes are a boon for people who enjoy cycling, but whose capacity is no longer what it was. And if they provide a route into cycling for younger people, so much the better.


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## dodgy (19 Apr 2020)

overmind said:


> *disclaimer:* I realise that there are many legitimate reasons for having an electric bike (e.g. disability), and ultimately people can ride/driver whichever vehicle they want.
> 
> <Rant>
> Why do I see so many young people travelling around on electric scooters/bikes? They have all that energy, why do they need electricity to help them.
> ...



Do you have a washing machine?


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## Globalti (19 Apr 2020)

Don't worry, the manufacturers will build obsolescence in so when those bikes and scooters wear out or the batteries die, getting spares will overcome most people's energy and resources and the things will end up rusting in garden sheds.


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## Julia9054 (19 Apr 2020)

HMS_Dave said:


> Fun is not allowed...


I'd go to work by Segway if they weren't so damn expensive! 
Friend of mine just spent several thousand on an Orbea ebike. He said i could have a go. Unfortunately, i only saw the pictures and the lockdown happened. Can't wait to take him up on it.


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## tyred (19 Apr 2020)

I've toyed with buying one or more likely, building one of my many existing bikes into one as I like to experiment.

I'm fit enough, cycled 5,000 miles last year, a good bit of loaded touring thrown in, most of it was actually on a hefty 90s MTB, I don't need one per se, I don't shy away from hills or putting a bit of effort into things.

The reason I'd be interested in one is simply because it's extremely hilly in this town and if I do utility riding I will arrive at my destination drenched in sweat even if it's only a few miles. An ebike would surely make utility cycling more practical as I wouldn't have to walk up hills to avoid sweating or to arrive early to freshen up or stand outside until I stop sweating.


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## dodgy (19 Apr 2020)

I'll be honest, I'm a lifelong rider, now settled at about 6000 miles per year, much higher in my relative yoof  I ride in the French Alps every July (maybe not this July 🤷‍♂️) so I'm probably fitter than the average 54 year old, but I bought an ebike as they're just great fun, I don't need to justify it to anyone. If you see me on my ebike today and think of me a cheat, yesterday I might have cranked 150 miles out in N.Wales on my road bike.

Get over it 🤷‍♂️

Edit to add, there's a problem looming, we've all seen lads on EMtbs riding along at 25+ mph whilst soft pedalling. One day the cops will have to get a grip of that.


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## ianrauk (19 Apr 2020)

HMS_Dave said:


> One less car though right?


This......./\/\


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## MichaelW2 (19 Apr 2020)

Bleedin' kids! Clear orff the lottayou ( but not on electric bikes...obvs)


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## Drago (19 Apr 2020)

HMS_Dave said:


> One less car though right?


im not sure many 14 year olds drive cars outside of Manchester.


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## Phaeton (19 Apr 2020)

There appears to be 2 arguments going on here, the old chestnut about "I'm too fit for an e-bike" & the other more important one which seems to have fallen by the wayside of the anti-cheating brigade & that is the illegal electric scooter use, they are not legal in the UK to be used on either the road or the footpath.


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## Milzy (19 Apr 2020)

overmind said:


> *disclaimer:* I realise that there are many legitimate reasons for having an electric bike (e.g. disability), and ultimately people can ride/driver whichever vehicle they want.
> 
> <Rant>
> Why do I see so many young people travelling around on electric scooters/bikes? They have all that energy, why do they need electricity to help them.
> ...


I love your rant because I whole heartedly agree. I've seen this too. Fat lads in their 30's going to work on leccy scooters that can easily reach 40mph+.


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## glasgowcyclist (19 Apr 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> I think @overmind is making the point that most of the people who ride them, especially those small wheel scooter contraptions that are not even bikes of any sort, don't need to be "enabled" in order to get around.
> Most of them are a lot younger than me, and in theory ought to be a lot fitter than me. I managed to propel myself and an old steel bike around for 20 miles this morning, and will do some more miles in a minute. If we can do it, youngsters can do it instead of being lazy!



I addressed a specific concern of the OP. Re-read my post to see the part of his rant that I quoted.

Secondly, youth is not a guarantee of fitness or mobility level.


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## JPBoothy (19 Apr 2020)

Because without them Deliveroo would not be able to keep your Pizza warm


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## HMS_Dave (19 Apr 2020)

Milzy said:


> I love your rant because I whole heartedly agree. I've seen this too. Fat lads in their 30's going to work on leccy scooters that can easily reach 40mph+.


I know. All them adults making choices and facing consequences. What a frightening world...


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## MontyVeda (19 Apr 2020)

Phaeton said:


> Who & what apart from your ego is being cheated?


it's just a jovial thought i have... i get overtaken by proper bikes too. If they're wearing lycra i think 'tw@t!'


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## sleuthey (19 Apr 2020)

IMO it’s because people’s health conscience/environmental awareness changes over time. I am a Prime example myself as follows: 

20 years ago e-bikes were not as widely available as they are now. I turned 16 I got a moped, turned 17 got a motorcycle, turned 17.5 and got a car. Simply because I could. I worked through each summer holiday to fund them. Most other students did the same. The college was just about commutable by push bike but it was easier and quicker to motorcycle or drive. What would have been the point in the summer job if I didn’t buy the vehicles. I didn’t give a toss about the environment, the speed limits or my health so I didn’t see the need to cycle. Just like I didn’t see the need to quit smoking or drinking. 

Now, 20 years later, I have matured and I do give a toss about those things. I am 100 times as wealthy now with a car 10 times the value but I decide to cycle and leave the car at home. Just like I stopped smoking and drinking many years ago. 

In conclusion I share the same opinion as the OP but you can’t plant a 37 year olds conciencious mindset into a 17 year old.


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## JPBoothy (19 Apr 2020)

Electric bikes ridden by young people is probably less dangerous than cars driven by old people.


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## Milzy (19 Apr 2020)

JPBoothy said:


> Electric bikes ridden by young people is probably less dangerous than cars driven by old people.


OMG you might open up a can of worms with the remark.


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## Rocky (19 Apr 2020)

I'm not really concerned what other people ride or why. I love my Brompton and other people's choices are none of my business. Live and let live. The more people out on two wheels the better I say.


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## Dogtrousers (19 Apr 2020)

As the OP says there are many legitimate reasons for having a (legal) electric bike. Here's one:

1) You want one.

Whether someone is capable of riding a push bike or not is pretty much irrelevant.

I can see how frustrating it must be for the OP that people at large don't comply with his views on how the world should be, but hey, life sucks.


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## kynikos (19 Apr 2020)

overmind said:


> *disclaimer:* I realise that there are many legitimate reasons for having an electric bike (e.g. disability), and ultimately people can ride/driver whichever vehicle they want.
> 
> <Rant>
> ....
> </Rant>



Lockdown getting to you?


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## Crankarm (19 Apr 2020)

overmind said:


> *disclaimer:* I realise that there are many legitimate reasons for having an electric bike (e.g. disability), and ultimately people can ride/driver whichever vehicle they want.
> 
> <Rant>
> Why do I see so many young people travelling around on electric scooters/bikes? They have all that energy, why do they need electricity to help them.
> ...



Careful. Upset the E-bike Mafia and you'll get banned.


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## Ming the Merciless (19 Apr 2020)

Apparently young folk have been seen lazing on couches. How very dare they!


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## glasgowcyclist (19 Apr 2020)

Crankarm said:


> E-bike Mafia



Is this the Italian equivalent of Godwin's Law.


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## JPBoothy (19 Apr 2020)

Milzy said:


> OMG you might open up a can of worms with the remark.


Mmm yes, I wondered about that as I was typing it but if I stick a big IMO on the end I'll be okay (I think )


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## jowwy (19 Apr 2020)

Here’s my take on the situation...

overmind makes a post about Ebikes, creates an argument that isn’t required and doesn’t post on the thread after original argument/rant/post is made.....

therefore it doesn’t require my answer of why....


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## DCBassman (19 Apr 2020)

Julia9054 said:


> I'd go to work by Segway if they weren't so damn expensive!


I've done light off-road Segway at Haldon Forest in Devon. A hoot! If they were road-legal, I'd save for one!


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## HLaB (19 Apr 2020)

overmind said:


> *disclaimer:* I realise that there are many legitimate reasons for having an electric bike (e.g. disability), and ultimately people can ride/driver whichever vehicle they want.
> 
> <Rant>
> Why do I see so many young people travelling around on electric scooters/bikes? They have all that energy, why do they need electricity to help them.
> ...


Who cares; I prefer a human powered bike but I'd far rather a younger person was on an electric bike rather than in a car


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## overmind (19 Apr 2020)

Thanks for the replies everybody. Thanks to the moderator too for toning down my inflammatory title.

I liked this comment.



sleuthey said:


> IMO it’s because people’s health conscience/environmental awareness changes over time. I am a Prime example myself as follows:
> 
> 20 years ago e-bikes were not as widely available as they are now. I turned 16 I got a moped, turned 17 got a motorcycle, turned 17.5 and got a car. Simply because I could. I worked through each summer holiday to fund them. Most other students did the same. The college was just about commutable by push bike but it was easier and quicker to motorcycle or drive. What would have been the point in the summer job if I didn’t buy the vehicles. I didn’t give a toss about the environment, the speed limits or my health so I didn’t see the need to cycle. Just like I didn’t see the need to quit smoking or drinking.
> 
> ...



It was just a rant. It's just my opinion of course. For me, e-bikes are not value for money but that's just me.

I enjoyed all the responses. Thanks.


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## Venod (19 Apr 2020)

I just wish they would stop pinching my KOM's


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## Drago (19 Apr 2020)

Pretty crap KoM if someone doing 15.5mph can beat you...


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## dodgy (19 Apr 2020)

overmind said:


> Thanks for the replies everybody. Thanks to the moderator too for toning down my inflammatory title.
> 
> I liked this comment.
> 
> ...



But do you own a washing machine?


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## mudsticks (19 Apr 2020)

rivers said:


> My wife is a full time fitness instructor (teaches 16+ classes/week). So she is a pretty fit and healthy 30 something as far as most people would be concerned. But she also has an electric bike. Her muscles are so fatigued from teaching, but she still wants to be able to ride a bike. She uses it for commuting, and for joining me on days out. Something she wouldn't be able to do without the electric assistance. And sometimes I use it for commuting when my legs need a break. You don't like electric bikes, fine. But don't begrudge people who use them.



I've always been an analogue cyclist since youth. 

Commuting, leisure, towing the kids and luggage about, and touring. 

But I'm considering getting an e-bike to help tow stuff for my work. 

As some of that involves evenings, and biggish hills. 

On energetic days could still do it on a normal bike. 

But I know I'd be far more likely to take an e-bike on those days when I was already a bit overstretched. 

I expect there were a few old duffers aghast at the idea of 12 gears being available at one time.. 

"12 gears ?? Ay dunno, in mah day we ad one, if we were lucky, and we'd tow a granite boulder up t' middle ot road with whole family sat on it - ont way t'mill"


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## Dogtrousers (19 Apr 2020)

YukonBoy said:


> Apparently young folk have been seen lazing on couches. How very dare they!


I just don't understand this obsession with couches. I sit on a rock and it's never done me any harm.


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## Venod (19 Apr 2020)

Dogtrousers said:


> I just don't understand this obsession with couches. I sit on a rock and it's never done me any harm.



A rock luxury, we only had stalagmites in our cave.


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## Phaeton (19 Apr 2020)

overmind said:


> For me, e-bikes are not value for money but that's just me.


For me very little cycling stuff is value for money, most bikes fall into that category, lots of clothing, turbo trainers, tyres, wheels the list is virtually endless


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## mudsticks (19 Apr 2020)

dodgy said:


> But do you own a washing machine?



Don't be ridiculous.. 

When there's that perfectly good rock in the river to beat the linens on ?? 

Such profligacy


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## Phaeton (19 Apr 2020)

Crankarm said:


> Careful. Upset the E-bike Mafia and you'll get banned.


How do you join, do I have to find a horses head, or will the horses arses on this thread count?


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## Jenkins (19 Apr 2020)

Drago said:


> Pretty crap KoM if someone doing 15.5mph can beat you...


Uphill?

I like ebikes - they're good for drafting into headwinds.


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## anothersam (20 Apr 2020)

On yesterday’s ride I was passed (again!) going up quite a steep hill by a family of three. The father had his arm on his young daughter and was pushing her along, a paternal bicycle lift.

View: https://youtu.be/7j1PgmMbug8

The adults were riding with electrical assistance, but it was a marvelous thing to see.






They've come a long way.


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## screenman (20 Apr 2020)

Phaeton said:


> For me very little cycling stuff is value for money, most bikes fall into that category, lots of clothing, turbo trainers, tyres, wheels the list is virtually endless



An interesting topic started there, what do you consider value for money. I consider the costs involved when I spend, certainly a tyre does not cost much in terms of base product but a lot of costs involved in getting it from tree to your hands.


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## SkipdiverJohn (20 Apr 2020)

JPBoothy said:


> Electric bikes ridden by young people is probably less dangerous than cars driven by old people.



Quite possibly but the car driven by an old person is likely to be registered to it's real owner, be reasonably roadworthy, and be properly insured - so injured parties have some legal redress.
On the other hand, the irresponsible muppets riding around on illegal electric scooters and illegally de-restricted e-bikes aka unregistered electric motorcycles, when they cause accidents, are generally going to do their utmost to vanish from the scene ASAP and avoid accepting any responsibility for their actions.


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## Phaeton (20 Apr 2020)

At the risk of going off-topic & onto a interesting topic not this mundane one, your choice of tyres, compare their cost of a car tyre then compare it with the cost of a bike tyre. I just feel that manufacturers of cycle products live on the profits of the vanity of riders, not that they are alone, tying people into a brand is big business.


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## screenman (20 Apr 2020)

Phaeton said:


> At the risk of going off-topic & onto a interesting topic not this mundane one, your choice of tyres, compare their cost of a car tyre then compare it with the cost of a bike tyre. I just feel that manufacturers of cycle products live on the profits of the vanity of riders, not that they are alone, tying people into a brand is big business.



My thoughts are the base product is pennies on both, the handling costs through the supply chain could be more for cycle stuff as they sell fewer of them.


----------



## steveindenmark (20 Apr 2020)

What is the matter with OP?

Electric or not. Its just a bike. What does it matter what anyone rides? Electric bikes are not only for the aged or infirm, they are for everyone who wants to use them. There are electric mountain bikes, electric Road bikes. Does he think they are designed to run down the corner shop for a pint of milk?


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## SkipdiverJohn (20 Apr 2020)

screenman said:


> My thoughts are the base product is pennies on both, the handling costs through the supply chain could be more for cycle stuff as they sell fewer of them.



Same goes for loads of cycling stuff. Take carbon fibre frames for example. Most of them are mass-produced in the same far-East factories, and they embody much the same raw materials.
However, there is a vast difference in the price of a frame from someone like Planet-X, and one of the "premium" cycling brand names. Very little of this difference is going to be based on actual cost differences, and a lot will be down to marketing spend, sponsorship, and high mark-ups, depending whose logo ends up on the down tube..


----------



## screenman (20 Apr 2020)

steveindenmark said:


> What is the matter with OP?
> 
> Electric or not. Its just a bike. What does it matter what anyone rides? Electric bikes are not only for the aged or infirm, they are for everyone who wants to use them. There are electric mountain bikes, electric Road bikes. Does he think they are designed to run down the corner shop for a pint of milk?



No he thinks youngsters who use them are lazy, I disagree.


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## matticus (20 Apr 2020)

screenman said:


> No he thinks youngsters who use them are lazy, I disagree.


Well in some cases I'm sure they ARE. But are they as lazy as their colleagues/peers who drive everywhere? I doubt it!


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## Phaeton (20 Apr 2020)

screenman said:


> My thoughts are the base product is pennies on both, the handling costs through the supply chain could be more for cycle stuff as they sell fewer of them.


There is that, although like any profitable business it charges the highest amount of money for a product that the market will support & as long as their customers are gullible enough to go along with it, just feel a lot of stuff is overpriced.


steveindenmark said:


> What is the matter with OP?
> 
> Electric or not. Its just a bike. What does it matter what anyone rides? Electric bikes are not only for the aged or infirm, they are for everyone who wants to use them. There are electric mountain bikes, electric Road bikes. Does he think they are designed to run down the corner shop for a pint of milk?


Nah he knew eactly what he was doing, he lit the blue touch paper & retired


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## mudsticks (20 Apr 2020)

steveindenmark said:


> What is the matter with OP?
> 
> Electric or not. Its just a bike. What does it matter what anyone rides? Electric bikes are not only for the aged or infirm, they are for everyone who wants to use them. There are electric mountain bikes, electric Road bikes. Does he think they are designed to run down the corner shop for a pint of milk?



Bored, I suspect. 


screenman said:


> No he thinks youngsters who use them are lazy, I disagree.



Well c'mon, its been well known since the beginning of forever that 'the youth of today' are lazy, selfish, good for nothing unruly louts, who will be the downfall of civilisation..


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## FrankCrank (20 Apr 2020)

....these leccy bikes - what's the best saddle for them, and what's the best lubricant to use on the chain?


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## CXRAndy (20 Apr 2020)

I suspect the OP has garnered that E-bikes are extremely well received by the mob we call 'cyclists' 

Millions of E-bikes are being sold in countries like Holland, Germany, which are massively into their cycling already. Non powered bikes will possibly become the minority in not too distant future


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## SkipdiverJohn (20 Apr 2020)

screenman said:


> No he thinks youngsters who use them are lazy, I disagree.



I'm inclined to agree with the OP. Mind you, the whole population are generally pretty lazy, IMHO. The majority of all the age groups don't have much to be proud of when it comes to doing dumb things like driving a quarter of a mile to the paper shop or jumping on a bus for only two or three stops. Most times, over short distances the quickest means of transport are walking or riding.


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## mudsticks (20 Apr 2020)

FrankCrank said:


> ....these leccy bikes - what's the best saddle for them, and what's the best lubricant to use on the chain?



In the laid bad spirit of the thing I'm intending to have one a bit like this..


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## Drago (20 Apr 2020)

steveindenmark said:


> What is the matter with OP?
> 
> Electric or not. Its just a bike. What does it matter what anyone rides? Electric bikes are not only for the aged or infirm, they are for everyone who wants to use them. There are electric mountain bikes, electric Road bikes. Does he think they are designed to run down the corner shop for a pint of milk?


That's a fair observation. One of the biggest problems with this country is that people seem incapable of keeping their noses out of other peoples business, more often than not while simultaneously doing something wrong themselves. Unless they're endangering people or downright breaking a law, I couldn't give much of a sheet what people spend their money on.

Going back to the OP, ebike's don't appeal to me right this moment, where even in my 50's I can still crack out average speeds North of 20MPH over 20 or 25 miles. But were I a teenager of today, raised on a diet of gaming and prick-prick-ping dinners, then an ebike is most assuredly better exercise that I might otherwise be getting so I shan't condemn them for that. I'd be happier still to see them all riding regular bikes and getting even fitter still, but whether I like it or not society has moved on (for the worse in that particular regard, but moved on nevertheless) and that's now an unrealistic goal.


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## Electric_Andy (20 Apr 2020)

Phaeton said:


> illegal electric scooter use, they are not legal in the UK to be used on either the road or the footpath.


This is the only gripe I have, scooters (or e-bikes that aren't road legal) being ridden in the wrong place. There is a reson these rules are in place; to prevent someone with no vehicle training/tests from jumping on a 40mph machine and killing someone, and having no insurance


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## screenman (20 Apr 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Same goes for loads of cycling stuff. Take carbon fibre frames for example. Most of them are mass-produced in the same far-East factories, and they embody much the same raw materials.
> However, there is a vast difference in the price of a frame from someone like Planet-X, and one of the "premium" cycling brand names. Very little of this difference is going to be based on actual cost differences, and a lot will be down to marketing spend, sponsorship, and high mark-ups, depending whose logo ends up on the down tube..



R&D costs?


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## Phaeton (20 Apr 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Very little of this difference is going to be based on actual cost differences, and a lot will be down to marketing spend, sponsorship, and high mark-ups, depending whose logo ends up on the down tube..


Yes


screenman said:


> R&D costs?


No


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## screenman (20 Apr 2020)

Phaeton said:


> Yes
> No



Is that R&D have no cost


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## SkipdiverJohn (20 Apr 2020)

There's bugger all R & D required in designing a bike frame. I bet most of them simply get hold of a competitors frame, take it apart, measure it and copy it, if the truth is told. Or just select a generic frame available on the wholesale manufacturers market and just decide what paint colour and logo they want on it. The basics of geometry and sizing proportion were worked out a hundred years ago.


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## Phaeton (20 Apr 2020)

screenman said:


> Is that R&D have no cost


No, it is No that the excessive margin are not solely down to R&D costs


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## screenman (20 Apr 2020)

Phaeton said:


> No, it is No that the excessive margin are not solely down to R&D costs



Not solely I agree but some must. I cannot figure why on the forum profit is such a bad word, how many of us would take a pay cut because we get more than we need?


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## overmind (20 Apr 2020)

screenman said:


> No he thinks youngsters who use them are lazy, I disagree.



Speaking of being young here is an interesting comparison from my youth. When I went to secondary school we had to do this test called the "cognitive abilities test". As a result I got moved class. I went home and told my parents, and got in a lot of trouble; sent to bed without dinner. I had been in trouble in my old school and my parents thought I had been moved down a class. They went to see the headmistress to find the reason (there is a point to this preamble ...).

The next day, when I got home from school, my brother answered the door with, "Dad's going to buy you a skateboard!" (The reason was that I had been moved into the top class, not the bottom one based on the results of this test). I was crazy about skateboards at the time; I suppose they where the 1970's equivalent of electric scooters.

I was given the choice of a bike or a skateboard. After thinking about it I concluded a bike was much better than a skateboard (they were about the same price). I rode that bike all over NW London for the next 5 years. I loved the brakes with 'safety levers'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raleigh_Bicycle_Company#Historic_models
https://forum.bikeradar.com/discussion/13077862/raleigh-arena


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## Phaeton (20 Apr 2020)

screenman said:


> Not solely I agree but some must. I cannot figure why on the forum profit is such a bad word, how many of us would take a pay cut because we get more than we need?


It's not, well not for me, it's excessive profit I don't like, although my boss would disagree, he was once paying himself £100K a week just to get the money out of the company, but I can assure you none of the 'workers' were on good wages. p.s. Yes I know it's jealousy


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## confusedcyclist (20 Apr 2020)

What strikes me as odd is that often the same people who bash ebikes happily drive cars around, not to mention the folk who drive cars to transport their road bikes around. Still, each to their own.

Try it before you bash it. Never had so much fun on a bike as I have blasting up hills at 15 mph and anyone who thinks your not having a proper workout on an ebike is demonstrating their ignorance to all those that have. I can make it to work 13 miles away without needing to thrash the pedals and save time not showering at the other end, yet you wouldn't believe the number of times people exclaim that they can't believe I'm panting as I dismount, it doesn't have to be any less hard work if you don't want, you can just cover the same distance in less time. And thanks to my ebike I can make it home on time to see my daughter before bed time. I'm perfectly capable of that journey under my own steam, I don't any more because it's less fun and costs only a few pence in electric to make the same journey.


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## overmind (20 Apr 2020)

confusedcyclist said:


> What strikes me as odd is that often the same people who bash ebikes happily drive cars around, not to mention the folk who drive cars to transport their road bikes around. Still, each to their own.
> 
> Try it before you bash it. Never had so much fun on a bike as I have blasting up hills at 15 mph and anyone who thinks your not having a proper workout on an ebike is demonstrating their ignorance to all those that have. I can make it to work 13 miles away without needing to thrash the pedals and save time not showering at the other end, yet you wouldn't believe the number of times people exclaim that they can't believe I'm panting as I dismount, it doesn't have to be any less hard work if you don't want, you can just cover the same distance in less time. And thanks to my ebike I can make it home on time to see my daughter before bed time. I'm perfectly capable of that journey under my own steam, I don't any more because it's less fun and costs only a few pence in electric to make the same journey.



Fair point. I'll give it a try. Can you hire e-bikes?


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## confusedcyclist (20 Apr 2020)

overmind said:


> Fair point. I'll give it a try. Can you hire e-bikes?


Absolutely!


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## overmind (20 Apr 2020)

confusedcyclist said:


> Absolutely!



What is the range of an e-bike. Could it cover 60 miles?


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## confusedcyclist (20 Apr 2020)

overmind said:


> What is the range of an e-bike. Could it cover 60 miles?


My bike will get 60 miles in lower assistance settings, which just about levels the playing field in terms of extra weight of the battery and motor, maybe with a bit more omph for hills and acceleration. Dual battery set ups can go further with higher assistance.


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## confusedcyclist (20 Apr 2020)

A lot depends on the bike, rider, weather, road conditions etc. Lots of variables to consider.


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## NotAsGoodAsMyBike (20 Apr 2020)

overmind said:


> Speaking of being young here is an interesting comparison from my youth. When I went to secondary school we had to do this test called the "cognitive abilities test". As a result I got moved class. I went home and told my parents, and got in a lot of trouble; sent to bed without dinner. I had been in trouble in my old school and my parents thought I had been moved down a class. They went to see the headmistress to find the reason (there is a point to this preamble ...).
> 
> The next day, when I got home from school, my brother answered the door with, "Dad's going to buy you a skateboard!" (The reason was that I had been moved into the top class, not the bottom one based on the results of this test). I was crazy about skateboards at the time; I suppose they where the 1970's equivalent of electric scooters.
> 
> ...


Ah, a Raleigh Arena was my first proper bike back in the 1970s, in that colour and with those useless safety brakes. All my mates had grifters and choppers. Foolish boys...


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## screenman (20 Apr 2020)

Phaeton said:


> It's not, well not for me, it's excessive profit I don't like, although my boss would disagree, he was once paying himself £100K a week just to get the money out of the company, but I can assure you none of the 'workers' were on good wages. p.s. Yes I know it's jealousy



I wonder what percentage of turnover remains as profit in most cycle shops, not a lot judging by the amount that shut.


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## overmind (20 Apr 2020)

NotAsGoodAsMyBike said:


> Ah, a Raleigh Arena was my first proper bike back in the 1970s, in that colour and with those useless safety brakes. All my mates had grifters and choppers. Foolish boys...



I liked the safety brakes. See link below:
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-...hey-re-evil-i-disagree-what-do-you-think.html


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## Phaeton (20 Apr 2020)

overmind said:


> What is the range of an e-bike. Could it cover 60 miles?


I go out on mine with 5 bars, I come back after 30 miles with 4 left, but I normally just use Eco mode & only go to a higher level in steep hills, no idea what a road e-bike is like



screenman said:


> I wonder what percentage of turnover remains as profit in most cycle shops, not a lot judging by the amount that shut.


Now you've moved the goal posts, I am referring to manufacturers, I suspect a LBS is more a vocation/passion than a method of getting rich.


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## confusedcyclist (20 Apr 2020)

@overmind https://www.bosch-ebike.com/en/service/range-assistant/


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## screenman (20 Apr 2020)

Phaeton said:


> I go out on mine with 5 bars, I come back after 30 miles with 4 left, but I normally just use Eco mode & only go to a higher level in steep hills, no idea what a road e-bike is like
> 
> Now you've moved the goal posts, I am referring to manufacturers, I suspect a LBS is more a vocation/passion than a method of getting rich.



The manufacturers depend on the retailers to sell thier products, so no point in squeezing them to tightly. I think most of us have no idea of how much it costs to sell a product, I do for the two businesses I own but not cycle industry that is for sure, obviously for a shop the more you tunrover the lower per item your fixed costs will be.


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## Smudge (20 Apr 2020)

screenman said:


> I wonder what percentage of turnover remains as profit in most cycle shops, not a lot judging by the amount that shut.



I think shops have to make a lot of profit, because of high rents and business rates.... and we the customers end up paying for that. Then people like me, feel like we are being ripped off, so buy online. Then the shops close and the people that charge these high rents and rates aren't getting any income at all.
Rents & rates for shops should be lowered, not the customers having to pay ever higher prices. This would go someway to keep shops open.


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## screenman (20 Apr 2020)

Smudge said:


> I think shops have to make a lot of profit, because of high rents and business rates.... and we the customers end up paying for that. Then people like me, feel like we are being ripped off, so buy online. Then the shops close and the people that charge these high rents and rates aren't getting any income at all.
> Rents & rates for shops should be lowered, not the customers having to pay ever higher prices. This would go someway to keep shops open.



Do you think wages should be lowered to match the lower costs? I agree with high business costs, it is very important not to confuse margin with profit, I see profit as the very tine bit left over when everything is paid out, most businesses in the UK at the moment making no profit at all, yes most.


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## screenman (20 Apr 2020)

Sorry guys seem to have taken this post well off topic.


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## Phaeton (20 Apr 2020)

screenman said:


> Sorry guys seem to have taken this post well off topic.


As said probably worthy of it's own thread, I shall now desist in replying again


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## Ming the Merciless (20 Apr 2020)

fossyant said:


> Well, they look like they do 'keep fit'. Bit like my neice. Signed up to do a 'tough mudder' type fun event, and she lasted about a mile before being carted off needing oxygen. The bit where I said have you been out running regularly got 'overlooked'.....



Looks can be deceptive when it comes to fitness. Some keep looking slim via calorie restricted diets, rather than actual exercise. Some only work on strength / body shaping whilst doing nothing for cadiovascular fitness. It's a bit like when people say fit and well, when many really mean that they are not ill. Being not ill and being fit and well are different things. Unless someone has been out exercising with you, it's hard to tell just how fit (or not) they are in comparison to you.


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## glasgowcyclist (20 Apr 2020)

overmind said:


> What is the range of an e-bike. Could it cover 60 miles?




That's a bit like asking how long's a piece of string. There will be numerous variables to take into account but @Pale Rider should be able to give you some guidance.


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## screenman (20 Apr 2020)

I had a fit cycling mate come swimming with us once, he could swim but not more than a couple of lenghts without having to stop, inside the hour for a 25tt no problems.


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## Pale Rider (20 Apr 2020)

glasgowcyclist said:


> That's a bit like asking how long's a piece of string. There will be numerous variables to take into account but @Pale Rider should be able to give you some guidance.



@overmind has already been referred to the Bosch range assistant, which gives a good idea of how rider, route, motor use, bike, and weather can impact on range.

Most legal full assist ebikes give similar range when used in similar conditions.

There is no magic wand, so no point in looking for one.

The ebikemotion light assist hub drive as fitted to several roadie bikes gives a longer range.

This is mostly because the motor is only being asked to provide a small amount of power, but also because many ebikemotion buyers tend to have just come off the back of the club peloton.

Bosch and other similar bikes tend to be bought by middle aged blokes with no recent cycling history.

Rider weight and fitness being one of the things that can have a big impact on range.


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## dodgy (20 Apr 2020)

You know your stuff @Pale Rider


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## Pale Rider (21 Apr 2020)

dodgy said:


> You know your stuff @Pale Rider



Ta, I've been riding ebikes and studying the ready made market for 10 years.

The latter is sad in a way, but I have picked up a fair bit of knowledge.

I'm not so well up on after market kits - there are a handful of contributors on here who know a lot more about those than me.


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## SkipdiverJohn (21 Apr 2020)

NotAsGoodAsMyBike said:


> Ah, a Raleigh Arena was my first proper bike back in the 1970s, in that colour and with those useless safety brakes. All my mates had grifters and choppers. Foolish boys...



Same story here, and mine was also a 5-speed not a 10! Way faster and less effort than riding a grifter or chopper. The brakes on mine were good (in the dry anyway!), and I've liked bikes with suicide levers ever since. They are fine for normal speed control, rather than performing emergency stops, so long as you keep them closely adjusted to minimise the lever travel.


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## Blue Hills (21 Apr 2020)

YukonBoy said:


> Looks can be deceptive when it comes to fitness. Some keep looking slim via calorie restricted diets, rather than actual exercise. Some only work on strength / body shaping whilst doing nothing for cadiovascular fitness. It's a bit like when people say fit and well, when many really mean that they are not ill. Being not ill and being fit and well are different things. Unless someone has been out exercising with you, it's hard to tell just how fit (or not) they are in comparison to you.


Very true. I know a few italians. They value appearance a lot and compared to many (maybe the majority) of brits have an iron will when it comes to portion control. But little stamina.


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## DSK (21 Apr 2020)

I've been having this debate with a couple of the guys in the office who have bikes or, would like a bike to just commute on as ever restricted parking, increasing traffic jams are beginning to take their toll but, are not concerned about the effort of cycling but more about not being able to keep at a reasonable pace causing a danger to fitter/faster cyclists and causing drivers to get even more irate. Additionally our new offices do not have showers so that a downer.

I used to ride my commute route almost 20 years ago for 1 year on a road bike. Even compared against my motorbike at the time, I was barely 2-3 minutes slower, from A to B over 4 miles, despite me speeding on the motorbike. On the odd occasion with tail wind, flowing run I matched the motorbike's time. The car's time was easily matched (usually a tad quicker) with the advantage of not wasting time finding parking and then walking etc. Admittedly, I was riding flat out to achieve this but, was able to do so back at that age and high level of physical fitness and strength. Since my knees had issues my running and football for cardio came to an abrupt halt 9 years ago and I've just been doing gym instead. I am taking advantage of the quieter roads at present, to get my cycling fitness and performance better but, I'm genuinely intrigued how an e-road bike would compare. As an example, my Trek ALR is a great road bike but, my Giant Propel oddly glides smoother, maintains its speed easier, more responsive and tangibly quicker for the same effort. I do not like to knock something without trying but, I am certainly going to see if I can get a test ride on an e-road bike back to back with my normal road bike to see what the real difference is. After a real world test, I may just seriously consider an E-bike if it makes me feel more confident to tackle my commuting needs/wants. For me there would need to be a serious advantage in the real world, over and above boosting my personal cycling stamina/performance as, E-bikes are hideously expensive, maintenance costs and complications will also rise as and when stuff breaks or one fancies upgrading bits and bobs.

Some people are just down right lazy and yes, full electric propulsion with no effort is their ideal but, as mentioned by many posters, there are some great uses for e-bikes either fully or partially propelled and they play a vital part in the evolution of cycling in my opinion.


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## Brandane (21 Apr 2020)

Thanks OP; you got me thinking.
I have 5 bikes; I reckon 4 of them could be replaced by this!


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## Phaeton (21 Apr 2020)

Brandane said:


> Thanks OP; you got me thinking.
> I have 5 bikes; I reckon 4 of them could be replaced by this!
> View attachment 516792


E-Road bikes are getting nicer


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## ianrauk (21 Apr 2020)

Brandane said:


> Thanks OP; you got me thinking.
> I have 5 bikes; I reckon 4 of them could be replaced by this!
> View attachment 516792


That does look very nice


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## Smudge (21 Apr 2020)

Brandane said:


> Thanks OP; you got me thinking.
> I have 5 bikes; I reckon 4 of them could be replaced by this!
> View attachment 516792



I took the HYB version out for a test ride from Halfords. I was very impressed with the bike and the e system, but the HYB model only goes up to a size L and it didn't fit me right.


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## DSK (21 Apr 2020)

Personally I really like the look of this (but in no way or shape am I prepared to spend £4.5K on one lol). I like the fact its cleverly thought out, keeping everything slim, neat and integrated without an oversized tube. At a glance it does look like a normal bike.







Non electric version is below


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## Drago (21 Apr 2020)

DSK said:


> Personally I really like the look of this (but in no way or shape am I prepared to spend £4.5K on one lol). I like the fact its cleverly though out, keeping everything slim, neat and integrated without and oversized tube. At a glance it does look like a normal bike.
> 
> View attachment 516816
> 
> ...


Are the batteries accessible on that, or is it chuck it in the bin time when they expire?

And whats with the 1970's bathroom suite colour scheme?


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## DSK (21 Apr 2020)

Drago said:


> Are the batteries accessible on that, or is it chuck it in the bin time when they expire?
> 
> And whats with the 1970's bathroom suite colour scheme?



IIRC, the battery is part of the down tube and drops out of it.

Colour scheme on the Bianchi is its classic colour, and better than what Specialized (and some others manufacturers) did with the Allez Sprint (not an e-bike)! If I gave my 3 month old a set of felt tips to dabble with she could do better than what Specialized managed! It looks like a bike made out scrap parts (imo)


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## Milkfloat (21 Apr 2020)

DSK said:


> Personally I really like the look of this (but in no way or shape am I prepared to spend £4.5K on one lol). I like the fact its cleverly thought out, keeping everything slim, neat and integrated without an oversized tube. At a glance it does look like a normal bike.
> 
> View attachment 516816


What does it look like without the black London Eye pie plate behind the cassette?


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## HLaB (21 Apr 2020)

DSK said:


> Personally I really like the look of this (but in no way or shape am I prepared to spend £4.5K on one lol). I like the fact its cleverly thought out, keeping everything slim, neat and integrated without an oversized tube. At a glance it does look like a normal bike.
> 
> View attachment 516816
> 
> ...


I'm glad it was outside my price range 2 years ago when I suffered a dramatic loss of form and was sorely tempted. With that I probably would have 'soldiered' on further instead of seeing the doc who after investigation found out it was bowel cancer.


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## Brandane (21 Apr 2020)

HLaB said:


> found out it was bowel cancer.


Fully recovered, I hope?


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## HLaB (21 Apr 2020)

Brandane said:


> Fully recovered, I hope?


Thanks, post operation and now and even to a degree during the chemo I was/am stronger and more sustainable than I've ever been. The chemo finished 6 months ago fortunately and only the neuropathy remains (sore,cold numb fingers and toes).


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## CXRAndy (21 Apr 2020)

overmind said:


> What is the range of an e-bike. Could it cover 60 miles?


My wife's ebike shopper has over 100 mile range in medium assist in full charge


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## mustang1 (21 Apr 2020)

In a decade, those young people who are now older will say "remember those Flintstone bikes?" And then someone will ask " what is Flintstones?"


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## Mike_P (21 Apr 2020)

Sure I have posted a similar comment on another thread but I got an ebike so I could commute and go shopping which means going up and down a couple of hills at least without being one sweaty person. Some weeks it gets a lot of use and other weeks very little while the other pure pedal power bikes get used on longer rides. On the rare occasion I have used an ebike on a longer ride I always apologize to anyone on a road bike I overtake. As for young people riding them I suspect one of the attractions is the speed, rapid to 15.5 miles assuming the bike is legal and then pure pedal power at added higher speed. Whilst the weight can deter fast speed downhill is another thing.


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## Phaeton (21 Apr 2020)

Mike_P said:


> I always apologize to anyone on a road bike I overtake.


Why the hell would you do that?


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## Mike_P (21 Apr 2020)

Phaeton said:


> Why the hell would you do that?


Because when on my road bike, like many others, ebikers whizzing pass without comment on a steep hill do annoy


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## Phaeton (21 Apr 2020)

Mike_P said:


> Because when on my road bike, like many others, ebikers whizzing pass without comment on a steep hill do annoy


Why?


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## Mike_P (21 Apr 2020)

Phaeton said:


> Why?


Seem to be plenty of others who complain re ebikes. Roles reversed I have gone to the assistance of road bikers struggling into headwinds on climbs and let them draft behind me.


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## HLaB (21 Apr 2020)

Mike_P said:


> Sure I have posted a similar comment on another thread but I got an ebike so I could commute and go shopping which means going up and down a couple of hills at least without being one sweaty person. Some weeks it gets a lot of use and other weeks very little while the other pure pedal power bikes get used on longer rides. On the rare occasion I have used an ebike on a longer ride I always apologize to anyone on a road bike I overtake. As for young people riding them I suspect one of the attractions is the speed, rapid to 15.5 miles assuming the bike is legal and then pure pedal power at added higher speed. Whilst the weight can deter fast speed downhill is another thing.


No need to apologise, I like having a steady 15.5mph to chase. Non legal ebike users maybe they should apologise


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## Drago (21 Apr 2020)

Mike_P said:


> Because when on my road bike, like many others, ebikers whizzing pass without comment on a steep hill do annoy


The electric assistance cuts out at 15.5mph, leaving them pedalling an even heavier and less efficient bike. There must be some pretty unfit roadies up your end if they can't keep ahead of them - I'm far from the ideal build for a bike race, and long past my prime, but manage to do so. Hell, I even toy with them a bit for a laugh.


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## dodgy (21 Apr 2020)

I would go as far as to say the majority of ebikers I see are on bikes that have been 'meddled' with. So the 15.5mph thing doesn't always happen.


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## SkipdiverJohn (21 Apr 2020)

dodgy said:


> I would go as far as to say the majority of ebikers I see are on bikes that have been 'meddled' with. So the 15.5mph thing doesn't always happen.



A lot of the ones I see have not only been doctored to make them illegally fast, but the riders don't even need to make any pretence of pedalling the things! They are simply unregistered, uninsured electric motorbikes.


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## Smokin Joe (21 Apr 2020)

Mike_P said:


> Because when on my road bike, like many others, ebikers whizzing pass without comment on a steep hill do annoy


Tough.


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## SpokeyDokey (21 Apr 2020)

Julia9054 said:


> I'd go to work by Segway if they weren't so damn expensive!
> Friend of mine just spent several thousand on an Orbea ebike. He said i could have a go. Unfortunately, i only saw the pictures and the lockdown happened. Can't wait to take him up on it.



I have a friend with one (Orbea Gain Ultegra M20i) and it is a fantastic piece of kit - he's 74 and uses it here in The Lakes and some hilly region of Spain where he holidays a few months of the year. I think he's as fit as the proverbial Butchers Dog (he averages 16-17mph on hard local routes) but it has been a game changer as far as he is concerned - especially keeping up with much younger riders.

It's the template for my next bike for sure.


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## Mike_P (21 Apr 2020)

Drago said:


> The electric assistance cuts out at 15.5mph, leaving them pedalling an even heavier and less efficient bike. There must be some pretty unfit roadies up your end if they can't keep ahead of them - I'm far from the ideal build for a bike race, and long past my prime, but manage to do so. Hell, I even toy with them a bit for a laugh.


I was talking about going uphill.


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## Phaeton (21 Apr 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> A lot of the ones I see have not only been doctored to make them illegally fast, but the riders don't even need to make any pretence of pedalling the things! They are simply unregistered, uninsured electric motorbikes.


I'd love to know where all these mythical beasts are


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## vickster (21 Apr 2020)

Phaeton said:


> I'd love to know where all these mythical beasts are


North London seemingly


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## HLaB (21 Apr 2020)

vickster said:


> North *of* London seemingly


Cambridge is North of London; the busway was full of them before the lockdown


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## SkipdiverJohn (22 Apr 2020)

Just watch the comings and goings on any London road that has a fair number of cycle commuters using it. You won't have to wait long before some overweight lump of a rider complete with a hefty backpack on sails past on some sort of e-hybrid or e-MTB whilst doing absolutely nothing apart from steering the thing.


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## gbb (22 Apr 2020)

Phaeton said:


> I'd love to know where all these mythical beasts are


I agree (in my local experience)
In the last few years I have seen 2 petrol powered mtbs and 1 ebike hideously modified, going so fast the brakes couldnt stop them in an emergency.
But that's it.
Edited to add, no doubt there are hotspots but apparently not round here.


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## steveindenmark (22 Apr 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Just watch the comings and goings on any London road that has a fair number of cycle commuters using it. You won't have to wait long before some overweight lump of a rider complete with a hefty backpack on sails past on some sort of e-hybrid or e-MTB whilst doing absolutely nothing apart from steering the thing.



It really sounds like you have a problem with that. If that "Overweight lump of a rider" as you put it, was not on an electric bike. They would probably be in a car. That would give you something else to moan about. So they just cant win as far as you are concerned.


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## screenman (22 Apr 2020)

I have never seen a modified one that I know of, I do see a good few electric bikes as I live right beside a twenty mile tarmac off road cycle track.


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## Phaeton (22 Apr 2020)

gbb said:


> I agree (in my local experience)
> Edited to add, no doubt there are hotspots but apparently not round here.


I'm not aware of seeing any, that is nto to say they are not around.


steveindenmark said:


> It really sounds like you have a problem with that. If that "Overweight lump of a rider" as you put it, was not on an electric bike. They would probably be in a car. That would give you something else to moan about. So they just cant win as far as you are concerned.


Seems more like the poster has Fatism issues along with dislike of eBike which bruise his ego by daring to overtake them


screenman said:


> I have never seen a modified one that I know of, I do see a good few electric bikes as I live right beside a twenty mile tarmac off road cycle track.


Same here not aware of seeing a modified one.


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## vickster (22 Apr 2020)

Skippy’s own racing snake physique might enable him to ride faster if he didn’t ride 20kg skip bikes in builder’s garb?


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## Julia9054 (22 Apr 2020)

Well, how very dare an overweight lump be out flaunting themselves in public forcing the rest of us to avert our eyes so we are not offended by their very presence.
Overweight lumps should be forced to travel by car so we don’t have to look at them offending our delicate snowflake sensibilities.


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## Mike_P (22 Apr 2020)

Phaeton said:


> Same here not aware of seeing a modified one.


Think I was passed by one the other day, struggle to work out how it could have been going that fast under pedal power.


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## Phaeton (22 Apr 2020)

Mike_P said:


> Think I was passed by one the other day, struggle to work out how it could have been going that fast under pedal power.


I'm not saying they are not out there, but as far as I know I've never seen one, but then when I'm out on my ebike I get scalped by riders on road bikes, I just think they are cheating, being so fit & riding lightweight bikes, they really should be banned.


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## Smudge (22 Apr 2020)

Plenty of non road legal ebikes around, i've seen many of them. Dinner plate sized rear hub motors, bikes moving at speed on the flat without the rider pedalling and obvious looking heavy ebikes doing speeds on the flat that i can easily ascertain are well over 20mph.
Probably because i'm into ebikes that i notice them straight away. Also on all the other forums i use, whenever the topic of ebikes come up, there is always talk about getting ones that are faster than legal, how to mod them or buying non road legal ekits.
Non road legal ebikes are widely used because there is little chance of being caught and nicked for using one on the road or cycle paths.


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## Julia9054 (22 Apr 2020)

http://www.steves-workshop.co.uk/vehicles/solex/solexintro/5000.jpg
I‘d have a VéloSoleX if I was any good at messing about with engines. I just think they are so cool!


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## Smudge (22 Apr 2020)

Many people see non road legal powerful ebikes, as a way of getting a moped or small cc motorcycle with none of the hassle or costs associated with those ICE bikes. Most know they are illegal to be used on the road, but its viewed as just a little bit cheeky and they are only getting around what they see as ridiculous laws on ebikes. Many are misinformed that they can use them on tracks, cycle paths and canal paths, as they are stupid enough to think this is classed as 'off road'


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## rivers (22 Apr 2020)

I've seen a couple of de-restricted e-bikes in the Bristol area, usually ridden by a bloke who doesn't have the bike handling skills to control it should something unexpected crop up. Plenty of people riding around on road legal e-bikes though.


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## vickster (22 Apr 2020)

It’s the same with e-scooters, owners don’t know it’s currently illegal to use on roads or pavements. The retailers claim to make it clear so either they aren’t telling the truth or it’s wilful ignorance or don’t give a fook among owners.
The law needs to be enforced somehow.


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## Phaeton (22 Apr 2020)

vickster said:


> don’t give a fook among owners.
> The law needs to be enforced somehow.


That is the truth, there is no enforcement of it, must admit in Sheffield I have only seen 1, but I was only going in 2 days a week, but apart from being only a few hundreds yards from the central station I never see officers walking around, except on horseback.


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## Drago (22 Apr 2020)

Phaeton said:


> I'm not saying they are not out there, but as far as I know I've never seen one, but then when I'm out on my ebike I get scalped by riders on road bikes, I just think they are cheating, being so fit & riding lightweight bikes, they really should be banned.


Don't see many ebikes at all up my end, but I've seen a naughty one recently. I was doing 26 and he came past me like I was stationary, without even pedalling. It was a heavy looking rigid MTB with what was probably one of these Chinese gazillion watt kits on it.

I know the head bobby of our local Save The Roads Team (Safer roads, but I'm an inveterate pith taker), and he tells me they'v sent a few off to court for licence and insurance offences over the last year of so.


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## Phaeton (22 Apr 2020)

Drago said:


> I know the head bobby of our local Save The Roads Team (Safer roads, but I'm an inveterate pith taker), and he tells me they'v sent a few off to court for licence and insurance offences over the last year of so.


Hopefully they also crushed the offending item, that is the only way to stop them, once people realise that their cash is going straight in the skip they'll stop building/riding them, it worked with mini moto's it will work with illegal ebikes.


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## vickster (22 Apr 2020)

Phaeton said:


> That is the truth, there is no enforcement of it, must admit in Sheffield I have only seen 1, but I was only going in 2 days a week, but apart from being only a few hundreds yards from the central station I never see officers walking around, except on horseback.


I see a couple every day now with the lockdown, on bike paths, pavements, occasionally roads.

I did almost get mowed down by an unlit one on Oxford Street a while back


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## Smudge (22 Apr 2020)

After the recent case in London, It seems you can knock a pedestrian down and kill them using a non road legal ebike and get off scot free, not even being convicted of the lesser charges of using an illegal ebike on the public highway.
Its hardly surprising that people using these bikes feel no fear of being charged of any offences.


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## Mike_P (22 Apr 2020)

Drago said:


> Don't see many ebikes at all up my end, but I've seen a naughty one recently. I was doing 26 and he came past me like I was stationary, without even pedalling. It was a heavy looking rigid MTB with what was probably one of these Chinese gazillion watt kits on it.


Sounds like the one that shot pass me, I was doing 22 at the time on my road bike which on a slight up into light headwind and with grippy 28s on it was IMO pretty quick, it must have been doing 30+ and the tyres looked huge.


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## Electric_Andy (22 Apr 2020)

I don't know why it's so difficult to Police though. I know the police are stretched, but surely it's obvious that a bike doing 25mph uphill or on the flat without pedalling is under illegal power? Perhaps the police are not educated enough (with respect) to know that legal e-assist bikes are painfully slow under power. Or maybe they just don't fancy their chances of catching something that can do 40mph on all sorts of terrain and narrow paths through housing estates etc


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## Phaeton (22 Apr 2020)

Electric_Andy said:


> I don't know why it's so difficult to Police though. I know the police are stretched, but surely it's obvious that a bike doing 25mph uphill or on the flat without pedalling is under illegal power? Perhaps the police are not educated enough (with respect) to know that legal e-assist bikes are painfully slow under power. Or maybe they just don't fancy their chances of catching something that can do 40mph on all sorts of terrain and narrow paths through housing estates etc


What Police?


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## Smudge (22 Apr 2020)

Electric_Andy said:


> I don't know why it's so difficult to Police though. I know the police are stretched, but surely it's obvious that a bike doing 25mph uphill or on the flat without pedalling is under illegal power? Perhaps the police are not educated enough (with respect) to know that legal e-assist bikes are painfully slow under power. Or maybe they just don't fancy their chances of catching something that can do 40mph on all sorts of terrain and narrow paths through housing estates etc



Its a combination of not enough road traffic police and it being deemed such a low level crime, that cost and manpower wont be used on it.
I think its its more likely, that at some point knee jerk legislation will be put on ebikes. Affecting even road legal ebikes, such as where they can legally go. This is what i fear most.


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## Electric_Andy (22 Apr 2020)

Smudge said:


> knee jerk legislation


Yeah good point. I think it all needs revising. I keep harping on about it, but I really think more power assist should be allowed. Still limited to 15mph, but at least more torque would allow you to get up steep hills. My road legal e-bike would not even climb anything steep with a full battery. You don't really need it on the flat, so it's only advantage was on very slight inclines. The people who look at these laws probably have no clue about e-bikes in practice (I have no evidence to back this up, it's just a guess).


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## Phaeton (22 Apr 2020)

Electric_Andy said:


> Yeah good point. I think it all needs revising. I keep harping on about it, but I really think more power assist should be allowed. Still limited to 15mph, but at least more torque would allow you to get up steep hills. My road legal e-bike would not even climb anything steep with a full battery. You don't really need it on the flat, so it's only advantage was on very slight inclines. The people who look at these laws probably have no clue about e-bikes in practice (I have no evidence to back this up, it's just a guess).


Interesting, my legal MTB will climb just about anything, it's the riders lack of skill/fitness that stops it


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## Smudge (22 Apr 2020)

Electric_Andy said:


> Yeah good point. I think it all needs revising. I keep harping on about it, but I really think more power assist should be allowed. Still limited to 15mph, but at least more torque would allow you to get up steep hills. My road legal e-bike would not even climb anything steep with a full battery. You don't really need it on the flat, so it's only advantage was on very slight inclines. The people who look at these laws probably have no clue about e-bikes in practice (I have no evidence to back this up, it's just a guess).



The Yamaha crank drive on my Giant seems to have a lot of torque, it's specced as 80nm. Although i've yet to test it out on a really steep hill as my area is fairly flat.
What ebike are you riding ?


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## Mike_P (22 Apr 2020)

Of course a side issue of the police getting more observant of what ebikes are legal or not will be doing the same for all bikes and how many road bikes have reflectors on the pedals?


Smudge said:


> The Yamaha crank drive on my Giant seems to have a lot of torque, it's specced as 80nm. Although i've yet to test it out on a really steep hill as my area is fairly flat..


I did come across a web site that reviewed all the different motors and rated the Yamaha as being the best on hill climbing.


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## screenman (22 Apr 2020)

We have a guy around these parts and close to the city who uses one of these type thingson the raod as well, it is not a bike.

https://video.search.yahoo.com/sear...=d5cb0f200e5876ab7967bda3600a6910&action=view


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## Phaeton (22 Apr 2020)

Looks fun, but not sure I'd want to be batting down a road at 15mph into a crowd of people, how do you control the speed/braking?


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## Smudge (22 Apr 2020)

Mike_P said:


> I did come across a web site that reviewed all the different motors and rated the Yamaha as being the best on hill climbing.



If i still lived back home in Bristol, then there would be loads of really steep hills i could try it it out on. Not so much round where i live now.


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## Electric_Andy (22 Apr 2020)

Smudge said:


> The Yamaha crank drive on my Giant seems to have a lot of torque, it's specced as 80nm. Although i've yet to test it out on a really steep hill as my area is fairly flat.
> What ebike are you riding ?


It was a few years ago, a Wisper 910 or something. Good battery, don't know how much torque the motor made though. Yes it would get up really steep hills but I'd have to stand up on the pedals. My point being that (enjoyment/fitness of cycling aside) something that can get you around slowly but with no effort would be preferable to a lot of people, rather than having slight assistance at times where you don't really need it and are already going a good speed without assistance.


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## Smudge (22 Apr 2020)

Electric_Andy said:


> It was a few years ago, a Wisper 910 or something. Good battery, don't know how much torque the motor made though. Yes it would get up really steep hills but I'd have to stand up on the pedals. My point being that (enjoyment/fitness of cycling aside) something that can get you around slowly but with no effort would be preferable to a lot of people, rather than having slight assistance at times where you don't really need it and are already going a good speed without assistance.



Dont know what motor that bike has, but its all about torque spec for hill climbing. With crank drive motors obviously being better for torque than hub drive, as the available torque can be used on different gears.
First ebike i had, had 35nm hub drive motor and it was useless on any hill, even slight inclines. I also have a hub drive Raleigh with 45nm motor and this is much better. But neither of them come close to the feeling of the torque on the Yam crank drive motor.


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## snorri (22 Apr 2020)

Globalti said:


> Don't worry, the manufacturers will build obsolescence in so when those bikes and scooters wear out or the batteries die, getting spares will overcome most people's energy and resources and the things will end up rusting in garden sheds.


You mean just as most ordinary bikes do at present?


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## Phaeton (22 Apr 2020)

snorri said:


> You mean just as most ordinary bikes manufacturers do at present?


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## NotAsGoodAsMyBike (22 Apr 2020)

I struggle to have an opinion on this! I’m 100kg so am regularly overtaken by all kinds of cyclists, especially when going uphill, even more so if I’m on my fixed (when I’m usually at about 7-8mph). Haven’t seen any obviously illegal e-bikes here in SW London but I do notice when pensioners sail past me on their bikes (as an elderly lady did the other day on Kingston Hill). But surely that’s the point? Regardless of age, I choose to struggle, they choose not to. Fine by me.

As it happens a friend of mine in her early 60s who lives in Bath (ie steep hills in every direction) has asked me for advice on getting an e-bike - I plan to point her at a LBS cos I don’t know enough to help. My wife has also expressed an interest in getting one so she can come out with me occasionally - prob is there’s no room in the shed unless I get rid of one of my other bikes!!!


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## DSK (22 Apr 2020)

I do admire those who have the skills to tinker creating bikes that go like this! It would probably even get Jeremy Clarkson onto a bicycle!

(skip to 11:00 for the action bit)



I wish I could build something like that just for a laugh as 15.5mph is a bit limp wristed.


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## Dogtrousers (22 Apr 2020)

Nice to see it's all properly built and held together ... with cable ties.


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## SkipdiverJohn (22 Apr 2020)

steveindenmark said:


> It really sounds like you have a problem with that. If that "Overweight lump of a rider" as you put it, was not on an electric bike. They would probably be in a car.



If the big overweight lumps using the illegal e-bikes were riding real bikes that had to be pedalled, and not pure electrically propelled vehicles, they might not be such big lumps.
If I was to eat and drink like I do, and not do much physical activity, I'd end up being their size as well.


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## mudsticks (22 Apr 2020)

I've informed my kids, in no uncertain terms, that if i _ever_ catch either of them riding an e-bike, before their 65th birthday, then i will disinherit them.



Of course i never will - 


- they'll be miles ahead of me ....


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## steveindenmark (22 Apr 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> If the big overweight lumps using the illegal e-bikes were riding real bikes that had to be pedalled, and not pure electrically propelled vehicles, they might not be such big lumps.
> If I was to eat and drink like I do, and not do much physical activity, I'd end up being their size as well.


Have you ridden an electric bike?


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## SkipdiverJohn (22 Apr 2020)

steveindenmark said:


> Have you ridden an electric bike?



No I haven't but what's that got to do with it? The doctored bikes are not legally bikes, and their riders aren't getting exercise from riding them. They might as well drive a car. it would likely be safer for everyone else, and they would soon get detected for no insurance.


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## Drago (23 Apr 2020)

steveindenmark said:


> Have you ridden an electric bike?


Yeah, it was alright. A bit weird at first but you quickly adapt. Problem for me was the electric assistance cuts out at a lower speed than I usually ride at anyway, so I was lugging round unnecessary weight. I returned it to my friend the next day, and his first ride out it promptly broke.


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## Phaeton (23 Apr 2020)

mudsticks said:


> I've informed my kids, in no uncertain terms, that if i _ever_ catch either of them riding an e-bike, before their 65th birthday, then i will disinherit them.


I can't see me seeing my kids 65th birthday


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## steveindenmark (23 Apr 2020)

Jannie and I had one each for 2 years. They were really good fun. I was still riding 200km a week on my road bike and so a leisurely pedal out on an e bike made a pleasant change. We gave them to a mate and his wife a couple of years ago. They still use them regularly.


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## mudsticks (23 Apr 2020)

Phaeton said:


> I can't see me seeing my kids 65th birthday



Well wno knows really?? 

But I'm hoping to stick around that long.. 


Just to keep on annoying the bejeezus out of them


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## Phaeton (23 Apr 2020)

mudsticks said:


> Well who knows really??


True, my father has seen 2 of his reach 65, although I suspect he won't see me get there, he's not in a good way at the moment, hopefully it's just an infection & not the brain saying enough is enough.


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## rivers (23 Apr 2020)

NotAsGoodAsMyBike said:


> I struggle to have an opinion on this! I’m 100kg so am regularly overtaken by all kinds of cyclists, especially when going uphill, even more so if I’m on my fixed (when I’m usually at about 7-8mph). Haven’t seen any obviously illegal e-bikes here in SW London but I do notice when pensioners sail past me on their bikes (as an elderly lady did the other day on Kingston Hill). But surely that’s the point? Regardless of age, I choose to struggle, they choose not to. Fine by me.
> 
> As it happens a friend of mine in her early 60s who lives in Bath (ie steep hills in every direction) has asked me for advice on getting an e-bike - I plan to point her at a LBS cos I don’t know enough to help. My wife has also expressed an interest in getting one so she can come out with me occasionally - prob is there’s no room in the shed unless I get rid of one of my other bikes!!!



Point her towards 73 degrees in Keynsham. Jim is a top bloke and will make sure she gets a bike that a) suits her needs and b) is the right size. All bikes come with a basic bike fit as well.


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## NotAsGoodAsMyBike (23 Apr 2020)

rivers said:


> Point her towards 73 degrees in Keynsham. Jim is a top bloke and will make sure she gets a bike that a) suits her needs and b) is the right size. All bikes come with a basic bike fit as well.


Cheers. Will do.

Ian


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## jowwy (24 Apr 2020)

Not enough police to enforce car laws, how the hell do you think they are going to have time to enforce scooter/ebike laws. even when you automate car tax and mots, people still drive around without them as they still know there is little chance of being caught..........


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## Phaeton (24 Apr 2020)

jowwy said:


> Not enough police to enforce car laws, how the hell do you think they are going to have time to enforce scooter/ebike laws. even when you automate car tax and mots, people still drive around without them as they still know there is little chance of being caught..........


Think that is more the story


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## Dogtrousers (24 Apr 2020)

When I'm out and about in the lanes of Kent, Surrey and Sussex ebikes are a pretty rare sight. Unless those roadies who continually overtake me are all on ebikes with hidden batteries, that is (that's a thought). When I do see them they tend to be ridden by older gents in anoraks.

Where I work(ed) in central London, Soho, they are relatively common - probably for delivery/messenger - and sometimes are ridden without pedalling which I think is a sign of illegality (maybe not, I dunno). Not that anyone can hit 15mph in the back streets of Soho as it's so crowded. (or was)

Thinking of that - has the messenger bike rider community been hit by a huge e-bike schism?


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## Phaeton (24 Apr 2020)

Dogtrousers said:


> and sometimes are ridden without pedalling which I think is a sign of illegality (maybe not, I dunno)


Not pre 2016


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## Mike_P (24 Apr 2020)

Should make it that all ebikes are work off a torque sensor, if you are not pedalling the motor does not kick in to assist.


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## Phaeton (24 Apr 2020)

Mike_P said:


> Should make it that all ebikes are work off a torque sensor, if you are not pedalling the motor does not kick in to assist.


All new ones are, well manufactured ones as they leave the factory


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## Smudge (24 Apr 2020)

Mike_P said:


> Should make it that all ebikes are work off a torque sensor, if you are not pedalling the motor does not kick in to assist.



Ebikes can have torque sensor, cadence sensor, or both. The throttles, which ebikes aren't allowed now, apart from walk along ones, tend to be fitted with ekits.


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## DSK (24 Apr 2020)

Drago said:


> Don't see many ebikes at all up my end, but I've seen a naughty one recently. I was doing 26 and he came past me like I was stationary, without even pedalling. It was a heavy looking rigid MTB with what was probably one of these Chinese gazillion watt kits on it.
> 
> I know the head bobby of our local Save The Roads Team (Safer roads, but I'm an inveterate pith taker), and he tells me they'v sent a few off to court for licence and insurance offences over the last year of so.



I think if one wants to build a cheeky mega-bike that can do some serious speed (not your typical e-bike off the peg), then the key is self restraint when using it. 

If you are going to ride like a spaz, expect to be caught. If you want to be sensible and just stay at the limit, without breaking into a sweat, that's another matter.

There is a local chap, who I now see daily, and its the same chap I saw about 2 months ago on the road. He rides a standing E-scooter thing with some crazy battery in it. On a 30mph road he left us for dust, 1.5 miles later, we were on a 40 mph dual carriageway, he was still out of sight. About another mile later, It took me a 1.5 mile 50mph zone stretch which I did a little briskly to catch him up, at the end of which, I caught him up. My real gripe is, he wears no protective kit (self selection) but, he rides without any care on single/dual carriage ways, either preventing traffic going past (staying in the middle of 2 lanes) or, weaving through traffic flowing nicely at the permitted limits. (Again self selection). I can see him getting pulled by the fuzz but, what can they do other than take the scooter off him. However, there is a good chance he may get taken out by a driver than genuinely does not see him to be tearing it along in silence suddenly end up at their vehicle.

However, if the same chap uses his nifty bit of kit, to cruise along, no faster than the permitted limits, uses hand signals and general road sense that a cyclist uses, and just not do the spaztic stuff he does, I'm sure he'd get away with it.


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## TheDoctor (24 Apr 2020)

I've certainly seen illegal E-scooters getting pulled by the police, so yes, it does happen. I got my e-bike for commuting, when I was doing care-at-home work. They're ideal for a ten mile round trip where you've got no shower and you have to look presentable.


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## HLaB (24 Apr 2020)

I doubt there's much chance of the police catching Ebikes on the 12 mile Busway in Cambridge as I suspect they are cycling pretty casually when they emerge on to the road.
Lol, I forget my exact speed but I can remember going a steady 19mph along it with some one drafting me for a few miles. We were then passed by an ebike and it was like we were standing still. He stopped drafting me and chased after its draft. He never quite got it and lasted about 30seconds before blowing up completely


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## Drago (24 Apr 2020)

TheDoctor said:


> I've certainly seen illegal E-scooters getting pulled by the police, so yes, it does happen. I got my e-bike for commuting, when I was doing care-at-home work. They're ideal for a ten mile round trip where you've got no shower and you have to look presentable.


The Met reckon they catch about 30 every week. Considering the size of the town those are still pretty good odds for those that don't feel the need to obey the law.


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## Dogtrousers (24 Apr 2020)

Drago said:


> The Met reckon they catch about 30 every week. Considering the size of the town those are still pretty good odds for those that don't feel the need to obey the law.


Just out of interest, what happens when a naughty illegal ebiker is apprehended? Does the bike get impounded? FPN and on your way?


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## Electric_Andy (24 Apr 2020)

DSK said:


> I do admire those who have the skills to tinker creating bikes that go like this! It would probably even get Jeremy Clarkson onto a bicycle!
> 
> (skip to 11:00 for the action bit)
> 
> ...



I wonder what would happen if he tried to register it as a motorcycle? Whether he'd be refused, or have insurance refused? And the MOT would be interesting. I think he'd have to have brake lights etc? I can't believe he's made something that powerful, and that indiscreet and expects to ride it to work and back regularly! Well good luck to him, but it's funny how people's attitudes are towards cetain people and different situations. If it were a 17 year old with a provisional license, riding a 500cc motorbike (same offence really) then this would probably attract more disagreement


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## Drago (24 Apr 2020)

Dogtrousers said:


> Just out of interest, what happens when a naughty illegal ebiker is apprehended? Does the bike get impounded? FPN and on your way?


Typically, the bike would be seized and the suspect off to court for licence and insurance offences. A qualified vehicle examiner will, erm, examine it and determine which category of motor vehicle it has now become, typically moped, light motorcycle or motorcycle, Tomahawk missile, etc, and then off they go to court where it's no laughing matter. Typical charges would be riding otherwise in accordance with a licence, no insurance and no MOT, and possibly no protective headgear if they're not wearing a proper motorbike lid. Try getting insurance after that, if you even have a licence left to get insurance on once the fairly standard 6 points have hit, and because no insurance is also classed a dishonesty offence it shows up on a DBS check. Forget working in the public sector and even large parts of the private sector with a dishonesty offence on your record.

Our local plod have fingered a few, but not many, and I suspect your typical bobby will neither know not care about e bikes and the various regulations around their use because they're simply not trained on the subject.


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## Smokin Joe (24 Apr 2020)

My next bike is going to have an engine, only a 125 mind but still an engine. I'm planning to ride out in full cycling kit and see how much spitting feathers I can induce when I pass someone uphill shouting, "Can't chat, I'm after a Strava KoM.


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## Crankarm (24 Apr 2020)

jowwy said:


> Not enough police to enforce car laws, how the hell do you think they are going to have time to enforce scooter/ebike laws. even when you automate car tax and mots, people still drive around without them as they still know there is little chance of being caught..........



So you are saying just because you believe others frequently break the law with regard to other motor vehicles then you condone E-bikers for doing so as well. How about you just comply with the law?


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## Iainj837 (25 Apr 2020)

I really hate post like this, a younger person may have health issues eg heart, you don't know a that young person's circumstances who the hell are you to judge. 
The point is at least they are out on a bike does not mater if it is traditional bike or ebike, they are getting fresh air and it's another car off the road


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## jowwy (25 Apr 2020)

Crankarm said:


> So you are saying just because you believe others frequently break the law with regard to other motor vehicles then you condone E-bikers for doing so as well. How about you just comply with the law?


I do comply with the law.........both my ebikes are fully in compliance with the laws within the UK


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## Zipp2001 (25 Apr 2020)

HMS_Dave said:


> One less car though right?


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## jowwy (26 Apr 2020)

Crankarm said:


> So you are saying just because you believe others frequently break the law with regard to other motor vehicles then you condone E-bikers for doing so as well. How about you just comply with the law?


I see no apology for your comment???


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## Phaeton (26 Apr 2020)

Crankarm said:


> So you are saying just because you believe others frequently break the law with regard to other motor vehicles then you condone E-bikers for doing so as well.


Did he, where, not in the post you quoted


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## al78 (29 Apr 2020)

MontyVeda said:


> Every time i get overtaken by someone on an electric bike, i think 'cheat!'



Why, are they participating in a cycling competition where electric assist is not allowed?


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## al78 (29 Apr 2020)

It allows people to enjoy some of the benefits of cycling without busting a gut on hills and in headwinds.

Perhaps some people should lose the militancy and view cycliing as a utility or leisure activity, not a religion with hardwired rules that people are treated as outcasts for non conforming. We have enough BS irrational tribal mentality in the world.


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## Drago (29 Apr 2020)

Or it allows people to waste excessive natural resources, rare earth minerals and electricity, when a little more effort is all that's needed to take them into that headwind.

Or it allows people to cycle into a headwind while avoiding one of the biggest benefits of cycling, maximal exercise. Leaving aside injury, infirmity or illness, the only reason people avoid strenuous exercise is laziness, and society at large pays the price for that.

It may seem innocent, even desirable (and compared to cars it most assuredly is) but nothing is completely beneficial and without consequence. I don't have an issue with legal ebike use, but I don't kid myself that its is completely without vice either. People ride them for many reasons, not all of them virtuous.


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## Blue Hills (29 Apr 2020)

A reasonable balanced post drago.
One of the unspoken reasons why some (i stress some) go for them i am sure is that they are seen as NOW, the latest development, ie, more evolved.
Not too many endorphins in a battery for sure.
Fine for folk who need them (i surely will in time) but best in the meantime to pedal.


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## Mike_P (29 Apr 2020)

I'll confess to once using my ebike instead of the road bike and that was 7 months ago yesterday when having misread the timings of the UCI women's road race I realised it was a bit too touch and go whether I would get to Norwood Edge in time on the road bike given the almost continuous upgrade route, as it transpired there was a cross head wind on the lesser but nevertheless significant southbound climb to the summit and seeing one road biker struggling a bit more than the rest let him draft appropriately.


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## Phaeton (29 Apr 2020)

Blue Hills said:


> Fine for folk who need them (i surely will in time) but best in the meantime to pedal.


Please explain how you can ride one without pedaling


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## Dogtrousers (29 Apr 2020)

Phaeton said:


> Please explain how you can ride one without pedaling


Downhill?


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## Blue Hills (29 Apr 2020)

Phaeton said:


> Please explain how you can ride one without pedaling


I think you know what i mean.


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## Mike_P (29 Apr 2020)

Blue Hills said:


> I think you know what i mean.


Without effort I suppose you mean, think that depends on the local terrain, often on hills it can be a case that you as the rider seem to be assisting the motor rather than motor assisting the rider
Then there is the issue of range and saving the battery for when it is actually needed.


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## Phaeton (29 Apr 2020)

Blue Hills said:


> I think you know what i mean.


No actually I don't, I come back off mine as wasted as I do if I ride my other bike, I just have gone further at a faster average speed, there seems to be a lot of myths in the minds of the naysayers, most of whom appear never to have ridden one.


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## Blue Hills (29 Apr 2020)

Phaeton said:


> No actually I don't, I come back off mine as wasted as I do if I ride my other bike, I just have gone further at a faster average speed, there seems to be a lot of myths in the minds of the naysayers, most of whom appear never to have ridden one.


good for you.


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## Blue Hills (29 Apr 2020)

Mike_P said:


> Without effort I suppose you mean, think that depends on the local terrain, often on hills it can be a case that you as the rider seem to be assisting the motor rather than motor assisting the rider
> Then there is the issue of range and saving the battery for when it is actually needed.


no i don't mean without effort - I realise that you have to use the pedals to let the thing kick in.


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## Drago (30 Apr 2020)

Blue Hills said:


> A reasonable balanced post drago.


Well, you know me Mr H. I'm the very model of reasonableness and common sense 

Don't get me wrong, I think ebikes are a great invention, and I'd sooner see one of those on the road than a car with 4 empty seats, it's just that every coin has 2 sides and some people get so close to the positives they can't see past that to the downsides.


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## screenman (30 Apr 2020)

What gets me is the use of cars by older people, lazy buggers after all they have had plenty of years to get fit.


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## palinurus (30 Dec 2020)

We have Beryl hire bikes where I live. I've been using them a lot- even though I have four bikes of my own. Good to ride to the station (pre-Covid when I'd regularly use the West Coast mainline) without any security worries. Often I'll be doing a regular walking journey and I take a bike because riding is easier and quicker. Great for using the awful local infrastructure during mud season when I don't want to have to clean my own bike (which is all of the time)

Today I hired an e-bike (an extra £1)

THEY ARE THE GREATEST I WENT UPHILL IN TOP GEAR


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## Phil Fouracre (31 Dec 2020)

Love this post - sadly not read it all, lost the will to live 😂
Shame the OP was ‘toned down’! Would like to have read the original. It’s always great to hear people spouting absolute crap!


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