# What’s stopping women cycling?



## Cycleops (21 Jan 2018)

Interesting report on the Beeb. About 50% fewer women than men cycle twice a week or more, according to transport charity Sustrans, and when it comes to cycling on the roads, the number drops again.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leicestershire-41737483


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## Dave 123 (21 Jan 2018)

I see a few lone women cycling round here on a weekend, not as many as blokes though.

Mrs Dave commutes alone from time to time but doesn't like the idea of a leisure ride alone for fear of mechanicals. Not sure why as I'm no bloody help!


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## LeetleGreyCells (21 Jan 2018)

Everyone who wants to cycle should be able to do so without prejudice, abuse or patronising morons bothering them. 

A cyclist is a person. It doesn’t matter if they are male or female, large or small.


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## Mo1959 (21 Jan 2018)

Quite a decent amount around here but still much less than men. Most women that I have discussed cycling with say they would be too nervous on the roads as their reason.


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## hoopdriver (21 Jan 2018)

I read that story. Not sure I am totally buying it.

Especially the comments suggesting that aggressive behaviour by motorists is directed at them simply because they are women - or at least not the behaviour as described in the story (honking, shouts to get off the road etc). I'm a guy and I have certainly experienced that same sort of aggressive treatment from motorists and I think we have all, male or female, encountered fellow cyclists who are right prats, patronising and snobbish. Not everything needs to be viewed through the prism of victimhood, sexism and misogyny.

I did like the tips and advice for women cyclists from 1895 at the bottom of the story - especially the one suggesting that it was not ladylike to strike a match off the seat of your bloomers. The mind's eye boggles


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## AndyRM (21 Jan 2018)

There are two male cyclists on the street where we live, myself and John. There are at least 6 females. 

The issue here is the way women are treated by men.


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## Dayvo (21 Jan 2018)

As mentioned above: patronising comments and attitudes from (some) men, and aggressive (mostly) male drivers.


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## hoopdriver (21 Jan 2018)

Dayvo said:


> As mentioned above: patronising comments and attitudes from (some) men, and aggressive (mostly) male drivers.


Tell that to Jeremy Vine


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## Heltor Chasca (21 Jan 2018)

The Audax club I belong to has about a 20% female membership. That’s pretty good in my eyes. In general I find people who like this sport (Audax) very tolerant, open, life experienced and intelligent. 

None of this testosterone rich, chest puffing, men-squawking stuff goes on. That kind of behaviour just honks the klaxons with the message, ‘I’M INSECURE WITH MY OWN MASCULINITY!’


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## Markymark (21 Jan 2018)

I think what would encourage more women is some advice from the men here who have a better understanding of the issues. 

For example it’s probably to do with periods or something.


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## Drago (21 Jan 2018)

To answer the question, I don't know. Mrs D loves cycling and has a Giant WTB mountain bike and a tidy little Pendleton road bike. Alas, her health is such that she can't always ride, and her eyesight is such that she lacks confidence and will only ride if I accompany her. With my own health issues keeping me out the saddle for 8 months that means she hasn't ridden either, but now I'm easing back into it Mrs D will probably do the same.


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## User10119 (21 Jan 2018)

One part of the reason:
View attachment 392469

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nati...ook-more-leisure-than-women-in-2015-in-the-uk


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## Heltor Chasca (21 Jan 2018)

User13710 said:


> My anecdotal experience is that women cyclists often can't get out to join a ride due to not being able to get childcare or being required to drop everything to look after grandchildren. I have never once known this to happen to a man.



I present you with the exception to the rule. I am the main parent (80%) to my 2 daughters and I work full time. My day starts at 0630 and ends at 2130. They eat well, live in a clean house and always have laundered clothes and the grocery shopping is coordinated around their massive appetites. Neither have ever been late for school. Somehow they make it to running club and swimming lessons. I don’t have any other family so I can’t utilise the time of grandparents or aunts etc.

The other 20% of the time when the children visit their mother, I run a very slick diary to ensure I can get out on my bike. I am the envy of dental receptionists worldwide.

Both girls (nearly 9 and 16) have been told that when and if (because they have a choice) they have their own children, I will not be providing childcare services for their kids, because I’ll be off cycling round the world.


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## Dave 123 (21 Jan 2018)

User13710 said:


> It's also true that cycling isn't all that welcoming to women in many ways, as any woman without much knowledge who has gone into a bike shop wanting advice about what bike she needs will tell you. You do tend to get patronised, if you can get anyone to speak to you at all that is.




The Rutland cycles branch at Grafham is/was managed by a woman. She sold Mrs Dave her road bike. At the beginning she was also selling to me so I just started wandering round the shop so she just gave Jo her undivided attention. She wasn't patronised and was looked after very well.
Maybe bike shops need to employ more women?


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## BSOh (21 Jan 2018)

User13710 said:


> It's also true that cycling isn't all that welcoming to women in many ways, as any woman without much knowledge who has gone into a bike shop wanting advice about what bike she needs will tell you. You do tend to get patronised, if you can get anyone to speak to you at all that is.



I went into a bike shop and asked for p clips once (wanted to fit a rack on awkward frame). He asked me if I was sure its p clips that I wanted. Yes reply I. He thought I should take my bike in, a 20 mile round trip, just in case I had gotten it wrong. Ffs 

I now buy parts online and fix stuff myself.


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## Dave 123 (21 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5123315, member: 10119"]One part of the reason:
View attachment 392469

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nati...ook-more-leisure-than-women-in-2015-in-the-uk[/QUOTE]


They need a tandem. Throw in a bit of crochet and it soon evens out!


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## swansonj (21 Jan 2018)

I think there are two things going on with cycle shops that combine. 

One is about cycling as a macho, competitive, racing-derived sports activity versus cycling as a leisure activity. Your average cycling shop is staffed by wannabe racers who think that's what all cyclists ought to aspire to. Hence the propensity of cycling shops to sell bikes with higher gears, narrower tyres, and more bent over riding positions than would undoubtedly make cycling more pleasurable for many people. The other is the sexism. 

I'd suggest the two correlate (not completely but to a significant degree) to the double disadvantage of women.


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## Joey Shabadoo (21 Jan 2018)

Two reasons I think there are less women cycling are:

1) Men have more leisure time than women who are more likely to have multiple jobs and tend to take on the majority of parenting and housekeeping chores.
2) Perhaps just a personal experience but when I was at school, the "cool" boys did sport but the "cool" girls avoided sport.


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## vickster (21 Jan 2018)

The rain


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## Jimidh (21 Jan 2018)

Whilst I think most of the answers above are mostly correct ( it’s more complicated than one single factor) i’ve been encouraged to see many more women out cycling in the last few years. 

Whilst I see more on the road I see significantly more at mountain bike centres and I think this is partly through this being a more family orrientated pastime where the whole family can enjoy together.

My own wife is fitness mad and is an instructor including spin but says she would like to ride more but doesn’t feel safe on the roads for what it’s worth.


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## Julia9054 (21 Jan 2018)

We are the wrong people to ask. A survey of men and women who don't cycle asking their reasons and seeing if there is a significant difference in reasons given would be interesting.


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## mjr (21 Jan 2018)

Heltor Chasca said:


> The Audax club I belong to has about a 20% female membership. That’s pretty good in my eyes. In general I find people who like this sport (Audax) very tolerant, open, life experienced and intelligent.
> 
> None of this testosterone rich, chest puffing, men-squawking stuff goes on. That kind of behaviour just honks the klaxons with the message, ‘I’M INSECURE WITH MY OWN MASCULINITY!’


The freewheeling day-trip group I ride with is 50-50 (exactly on the outbound yesterday, but two men lived near the destination so didn't ride the return). Why is 20-80 good for an audax club, rather than a long way shy of where it should be?


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## Fab Foodie (21 Jan 2018)

User13710 said:


> Cycling when you've got your period can be problematic, yes. What solutions did you have in mind?


I think you missed his point.


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## Markymark (21 Jan 2018)

Fab Foodie said:


> I think you missed his point.


Tbf I don’t usually have a point and when I do, it’s tired and predictable.


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## gaijintendo (21 Jan 2018)

Don't be a slave to fashion!


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## Jimidh (21 Jan 2018)

mjr said:


> The freewheeling day-trip group I ride with is 50-50 (exactly on the outbound yesterday, but two men lived near the destination so didn't ride the return). Why is 20-80 good for an audax club, rather than a long way shy of where it should be?


Because women have more sense to hang round with a bunch of beardy boring blokes nattering about bottom brackets and favourite brevet cards.


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## Fab Foodie (21 Jan 2018)

My observations are that the percentage of women cycling is rapidly increasing.

As a sweeping generalisation I think take-up is particularly high in mountain biking, maybe this is to do with the off-road bit?

My experience with Abingdon Freewheeling was of growth in all ‘cycling’ from the mellow through to the fast group. Didcot Phoenix has a very strong women’s sporting group, many of whom regularly TT. Brompton groups, The Fridays, local CTC all seem to have a notable and growing number of female participants.
Tri clubs have also appear to have an increasingly large female proportion.
Numbers of women only cycling clubs are growing too.

Look at Charity rides etc. Having done the L2B regularly since the early 1980s I can tell you the demographic has shifted hugely towards women young and old alike.

From my experience, womens cycling is growing like topsy, that’s not to say that more couldn’t be done to encourage women to ride.


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## Fab Foodie (21 Jan 2018)

Markymark said:


> Tbf I don’t usually have a point and when I do, it’s tired and predictable.


We take that as read....


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## screenman (21 Jan 2018)

Women outnumber men in the pool I swim at by about 4 to 1.


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## Fab Foodie (21 Jan 2018)

swansonj said:


> I think there are two things going on with cycle shops that combine.
> 
> One is about cycling as a macho, competitive, racing-derived sports activity versus cycling as a leisure activity. Your average cycling shop is staffed by wannabe racers who think that's what all cyclists ought to aspire to. Hence the propensity of cycling shops to sell bikes with higher gears, narrower tyres, and more bent over riding positions than would undoubtedly make cycling more pleasurable for many people. The other is the sexism.
> 
> I'd suggest the two correlate (not completely but to a significant degree) to the double disadvantage of women.


I agree to a certain extent, however regarding shops, we are still fortunate that in many areas there are still good smaller shops that specialise in more mundane/utility/leisure/non sport cycling and seem to be thriving as a result. These are to be cherished.
Furthermore there are a lot more knowledgeable women working in bike shops and servicing which can only be a good thing.


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## Fab Foodie (21 Jan 2018)

screenman said:


> Women outnumber men in the pool I swim at by about 5 to 1.


Which pool is that :-)


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## vickster (21 Jan 2018)

screenman said:


> Women outnumber men in the pool I swim at by about 5 to 1.


Which has what to do with women cycling? Unless they all cycle there


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## Dave 123 (21 Jan 2018)

Markymark said:


> Tbf I don’t usually have a point and when I do, it’s tired and predictable.




There's nothing wrong with sticking to your strengths.


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## Supersuperleeds (21 Jan 2018)

I've seen the ladies in the article out and about a few times cycling.


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## deptfordmarmoset (21 Jan 2018)

vickster said:


> Which has what to do with women cycling? Unless they all cycle there


I think the suggestion is that more women may be found doing other forms of exercise. So the OP's question remains, of course.


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## Slick (21 Jan 2018)

Never going to be great, mostly men discussing why it's tough for women.


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## BoldonLad (21 Jan 2018)

Dave 123 said:


> Mrs Dave commutes alone from time to time but doesn't like the idea of a leisure ride alone for fear of mechanicals. Not sure why as I'm no bloody help!



But, if you are there, she has someone to blame! Do keep up!


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## Heltor Chasca (21 Jan 2018)

mjr said:


> The freewheeling day-trip group I ride with is 50-50 (exactly on the outbound yesterday, but two men lived near the destination so didn't ride the return). Why is 20-80 good for an audax club, rather than a long way shy of where it should be?



You are absolutely right. But it is a very progressive club and things can only get better. It would be nice to see more women than 20%. I for one don’t see a lot of them other than at the départ or the occasional control. They usually outclass me by a long shot.

My observations of the lower female percentages are based anecdotally on my casual observations of the local road clubs so may not be truely representative. My figures based on the actual membership of my club are real.


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## Pale Rider (21 Jan 2018)

Going by a couple of remarks made by women members of my Sunday morning group, fear of unwanted male attention plays a part.

I've ridden just with one of our women members several times, and there's no doubt a significant number of other male road users gawp at her.

If I notice, she must, and it must be off putting.

Then there's the inevitable fear of some really nasty male attention if cycling solo.

In our group, a woman member is less inclined to come out if she thinks she will be the only woman.

The men just turn up irrespective, but I've noticed the women tend to have a pre-ride online conversation to establish if any other women are riding the next Sunday.

Wanting the company of another woman on the ride is reasonable, but it's bound to limit participation when only one of the handful of women in the group want to come out.

Another factor I've noticed is some women lack confidence in their ability.

"I couldn't manage that ride," when I know fine well they could having seen them do similar rides in the past.

If there was a cycling fitness league table of our group, two or three of the women would be close to the top.


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## Fab Foodie (21 Jan 2018)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> I think the suggestion is that more women may be found doing other forms of exercise. So the OP's question remains, of course.


Yep. I see more women jogging/running than men.
So plenty of women are sportzing, and increasingly more are cycling. At what point we have enough women cycling I don’t know....


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## Fab Foodie (21 Jan 2018)

Pale Rider said:


> Going by a couple of remarks made by women members of my Sunday morning group, fear of unwanted male attention plays a part.
> 
> I've ridden just with one of our women members several times, and there's no doubt a significant number of other male road users gawp at her.
> 
> ...



I don’t disagree, but isn’t you first paragraph true of other sports clubs, running, tri, swimming, gym bunnies etc? It cannot be unique to cycling.


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## gavroche (21 Jan 2018)

When I did the Tour de Mon last August, there were many women participating and quite a few of them could ride uphill faster than me!


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## Fab Foodie (21 Jan 2018)

Pale Rider said:


> Going by a couple of remarks made by women members of my Sunday morning group, fear of unwanted male attention plays a part.
> 
> I've ridden just with one of our women members several times, and there's no doubt a significant number of other male road users gawp at her.
> 
> ...


I give you the Tri Talk forum....
http://www.tritalk.co.uk/forums/vie...rt=10665&sid=b5e2714e99f7304c002a9b7a7562748d


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## Julia9054 (21 Jan 2018)

Fab Foodie said:


> I don’t disagree, but isn’t you first paragraph true of other sports clubs, running, tri, swimming, gym bunnies etc? It cannot be unique to cycling.


It's outdoor exercising where you are encountering men not also exercising so my runner friends also encounter it. As somebody upthread said, we all encounter abuse simply by being on a bike but on the rare occasions it happens to me, the abuse is because i am on a bike, the words chosen are because i am female.
I also get the occasional shouted comment about my body which happens when i am alone or with other women and never when i am in a mixed group. 
As an experienced cyclist, i feel less frightened when this happens on a bike as i am more confident of my ability to get away than if i was running.


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## Drago (21 Jan 2018)

I've had a female comment about my body while I was in my Lycra (and fortunately riding the bike). While the language was rather coarse, I believe the tone was intended as complimentary. Nevertheless, it was unsolicited and impolite at best.

People who utter such tosh to cyclists, whatever the sex, would be probably inclined to do much the same wherever they encounter you.


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## Fab Foodie (21 Jan 2018)

Julia9054 said:


> It's outdoor exercising where you are encountering men not also exercising so my runner friends also encounter it. As somebody upthread said, we all encounter abuse simply by being on a bike but on the rare occasions it happens to me, the abuse is because i am on a bike, the words chosen are because i am female.
> I also get the occasional shouted comment about my body which happens when i am alone or with other women and never when i am in a mixed group.
> As an experienced cyclist, i feel less frightened when this happens on a bike as i am more confident of my ability to get away than if i was running.


Good point.


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## swansonj (21 Jan 2018)

Drago said:


> I've had a female comment about my body while I was in my Lycra (and fortunately riding the bike). While the language was rather coarse, I believe the tone was intended as complimentary. Nevertheless, it was unsolicited and impolite at best.
> 
> People who utter such tosh to cyclists, whatever the sex, would be probably inclined to do much the same wherever they encounter you.


Would you care to offer any reflection on to what extent (or not) your admirable ability to be relatively sanguine about the event is enhanced by your physical size and strength and your experience of having passed through life (a) as male and (b) as a soldier and police officer?


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## swansonj (21 Jan 2018)

gavroche said:


> When I did the Tour de Mon last August, there were many women participating and quite a few of them could ride uphill faster than me!


Does the exclamation mark imply you find it particularly noteworthy, even extraordinary, that there are quite a few women with a higher power to weight ratio than you?


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## Julia9054 (21 Jan 2018)

swansonj said:


> Would you care to offer any reflection on to what extent (or not) your admirable ability to be relatively sanguine about the event is enhanced by your physical size and strength and your experience of having passed through life (a) as male and (b) as a soldier and police officer?


Sigh.
I knew as i was typing my comment above that there would be a man along very soon to explain how the same thing happened to him!


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## Drago (21 Jan 2018)

swansonj said:


> Would you care to offer any reflection on to what extent (or not) your admirable ability to be relatively sanguine about the event is enhanced by your physical size and strength and your experience of having passed through life (a) as male and (b) as a soldier and police officer?



I would, if I understood the question!

It only happened the once Julia, and I was genuinely shocked and surprised. I can handle being chatted up or hit upon, but that was really a step too far. OK, I'm a big boy and I hardly lost any sleep over it, but if it shocked me then I can easily see how it might be distressing to females who may have to suffer a lot more of that sort of thing.


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## swansonj (21 Jan 2018)

Drago said:


> I would, if I understood the question!




As I recall, despite your carefully cultivated image as a Neanderthal pongo, you are in fact clever enough to have been offered a place at Cambridge (and you listen to Women's Hour). So I'm going to take a punt that you do in fact understand the question....


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## Drago (21 Jan 2018)

Yeah, I did 

Having been in the mob and the dibble I was probably more hardened to such a thing than I might otherwise have been. Nevertheless, it was random, unexpected and unwelcome, and it did make me think then, if only for a moment, about that which females must sometimes may endure.

Its not acceptable, and I can see how females might think twice before donning tight Lycra and parading themselves around the road.

PS, was offered Durham too


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## FishFright (21 Jan 2018)

Fab Foodie said:


> I give you the Tri Talk forum....
> http://www.tritalk.co.uk/forums/vie...rt=10665&sid=b5e2714e99f7304c002a9b7a7562748d



700 odd pages of it ........


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## hoopdriver (21 Jan 2018)

User said:


> “*What’s stopping women cycling?”
> *
> Patronising, mansplaining threads like this don’t help.


Self righteousness doesn’t go far either. The thread was commentary on an article in the news this morning...


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## Pale Rider (21 Jan 2018)

FishFright said:


> 700 odd pages of it ........



And what's more it's not locked.

Mind, page 712 is the same as page one, and page 711 starts in 2015, so something odd has happened.


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## User10119 (21 Jan 2018)

Drago said:


> Yeah, I did
> Having been in the mob and the dibble I was probably more hardened to such a thing than I might otherwise have been. Nevertheless, it was random, unexpected and unwelcome, and it did make me think then, if only for a moment, about that which females must sometimes may endure.
> 
> Its not acceptable, and I can see how females might think twice before donning tight Lycra and parading themselves around the road.



No, it isn't acceptable. It's quite refreshing to see a bloke comment on finding it unwelcome - a very common response in such discussions that I've seen in the past is the 'well, I didn't mind' trope. Bear in mind too that it happens a LOT to many women, and mostly not when they are in the company on men so most men don't 'see' how prevalent catcalling is. 

As an aside, can I ask you to reflect on a use of language thing? Would you say that men who dress in sports-specific clothing are 'parading themselves around the road' or are they just riding their bikes? Also, female is generally adjectival, the relevant noun is women. The use of female(s) as a noun when referring to women is a linguistic trait that is extremely common in many of the less pleasant corners of the internet, in particular those inhabited by some distinctly unpleasant MRAs. A couple of explanations of why it can be somewhat irritating:
https://jezebel.com/the-problem-with-calling-women-females-1683808274
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/joshua-adams/female-is-an-adjective-not-a-noun_b_9604844.html


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## jefmcg (21 Jan 2018)

Pale Rider said:


> The men just turn up irrespective, but I've noticed the women tend to have a pre-ride online conversation to establish if any other women are riding the next Sunday.


So the men in your cycling club never get online to check if there will be any other men on the ride, and you think that says something about women????

They don't need to do it because they know there will always be other men on the ride.


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## bpsmith (21 Jan 2018)

It is disappointing that there are less women cycling than men. Drawing from my own experience, my Wife is simply not interested in cycling. We both had bikes, before my Som came along, but my Wife wasn’t really into it tbh. When asked, she just said she wasn’t fussed. Nothing to do with Lycra, busy roads, or other people’s opinions, it just doesn’t do it for her and she can’t see the attraction.

I think that we should just accept that Women and Men are different and not try and suggest that there are always barriers in place. Yes, at times there are, but it’s not always the case.

Where there are barriers, actual or perceived, then I am totally behind removing them, without question.

One thing I have noticed about myself is that I used to feel awkward when crossing paths with a woman cycling, or running for that matter, when we are both on our own. The awkwardness was down to over thinking whether they would take offence to me saying hello, by thinking there’s more to my politeness. I just decided that I would continue with my natural inclination to say hello to every rider I was lucky enough to encounter, irrespective of gender.

I do wonder whether other men feel like this and then don’t say hello, and the women then find us rude and unwelcoming?


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## hoopdriver (21 Jan 2018)

jefmcg said:


> So the men in your cycling club never get online to check if there will be any other men on the ride, and you think that says something about women????
> 
> In case you are really thick, they don't need to do it because they know there will always be other men on the ride.


Conversely if the blokes went online before the ride to see if there were any _women _coming along, people might think they were on the make. So no need, really, for any of them to scope out the other riders.


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## jefmcg (21 Jan 2018)

hoopdriver said:


> Conversely if the blokes went online before the ride to see if there were any _women _coming along, people might think they were on the make. So no need, really, for any of them to scope out the other riders.


What!?


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## mustang1 (21 Jan 2018)

From my SO's perspective it's probably seen as
A) dangerous
B) cant be seen as having fun
C) too difficult
D) too expensive

In the order of d, b, c a.


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## sarahale (21 Jan 2018)

Ride spoilers for me are lewd comments, angry car drivers, other cyclists riding aggressively, rudeness and patronising 'haven't you done well' comment near the end of every sportive...when I overtake them.

Sexual harassment is a huge problem, I'm even a target in winter when wearing very unattractive waterproof clothing which suggests they just do it because they think it's acceptable. And hilarious.


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## jefmcg (21 Jan 2018)

bpsmith said:


> I do wonder whether other men feel like this and then don’t say hello, and the women then find us rude and unwelcoming?


Do think about it. I can't imagine any woman cares that a strange man didn't greet her. A woman cycling (or running) on her own probably is doing because they want to be on their own. If women are coming to a club, then address them as human beings. You'll be fine.


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## gavroche (21 Jan 2018)

swansonj said:


> Does the exclamation mark imply you find it particularly noteworthy, even extraordinary, that there are quite a few women with a higher power to weight ratio than you?


Don't see anything in it, it is just a matter of speech.


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## swansonj (21 Jan 2018)

The following is something that's been in my mind as this thread has progressed. 

I quite often pootle on my touring bike up Box Hill and am invariably overtaken by multiple road cyclists both M and F though there are always more M than F. I'm fairly sure, on average, the men look more all-out, pushing themselves to the limit, arrive at the top in a state of collapse, needing recovery time before joining the tea shop queue. The women look more self contained, smooth, elegant even, apparently staying within their limits. 

Is that because men (or the subset of men who select Box Hill for their ride) are more likely to push themselves closer to their limit? Is it because men care less about appearing exhausted? Is it that some men actually get a boost from ostentatiously flaunting how strenuous they are being? Is it that women feel they have to try harder not to show (perceived) physical weakness in male-dominated company?


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## Fab Foodie (21 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5123714, member: 10119"]
As an aside, can I ask you to reflect on a use of language thing? Would you say that men who dress in sports-specific clothing are 'parading themselves around the road' or are they just riding their bikes? Also, female is generally adjectival, the relevant noun is women. The use of female(s) as a noun when referring to women is a linguistic trait that is extremely common in many of the less pleasant corners of the internet, in particular those inhabited by some distinctly unpleasant MRAs. A couple of explanations of why it can be somewhat irritating:
https://jezebel.com/the-problem-with-calling-women-females-1683808274
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/joshua-adams/female-is-an-adjective-not-a-noun_b_9604844.html[/QUOTE]
Point taken.
I did struggle when I posted whether it should be women or females...and hedged my bets. I am more learned now....


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## vickster (21 Jan 2018)

swansonj said:


> The following is something that's been in my mind as this thread has progressed.
> 
> I quite often pootle on my touring bike up Box Hill and am invariably overtaken by multiple road cyclists both M and F though there are always more M than F. I'm fairly sure, on average, the men look more all-out, pushing themselves to the limit, arrive at the top in a state of collapse, needing recovery time before joining the tea shop queue. The women look more self contained, smooth, elegant even, apparently staying within their limits.
> 
> Is that because men (or the subset of men who select Box Hill for their ride) are more likely to push themselves closer to their limit? Is it because men care less about appearing exhausted? Is it that some men actually get a boost from ostentatiously flaunting how strenuous they are being? Is it that women feel they have to try harder not to show (perceived) physical weakness in male-dominated company?


You've obviously never seen me after I've dragged myself up Box Hill 

The rest of your post...errr wtf?


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## byegad (21 Jan 2018)

I see quite a few different women around the lanes I use, I'd guess that they represent approximately 30% of all the cyclists I see and some ride alone, others in single sex groups and a few in mixed sex groups. 

Lady Byegad used to ride with me sometimes, and her main reasons for not doing so varied from time of the month to her hair having just been done. That said she'd not go alone, more from a fear of a breakdown or puncture than anything else. I'd class her as an occasional cyclist, not a regular cyclist.


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## bpsmith (21 Jan 2018)

jefmcg said:


> Do think about it. I can't imagine any woman cares that a strange man didn't greet her. A woman cycling (or running) on her own probably is doing because they want to be on their own. If women are coming to a club, then address them as human beings. You'll be fine.


That’s how I am when I stop and talk.

My point is that some of us men tend to overthink things and then come across worse as a result.


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## JhnBssll (21 Jan 2018)

I've suggested to my wife that she buys a bicycle on a number of occasions - I can't think of much better than going out on long weekend rides with her. Unfortunately she recognises the fact that she's super clumsy and would very likely hurt herself despite me trying to convince her otherwise. Sadly I think she's probably right on this one - We've never had to sell a car she's owned, they've all been scrapped or written off so there's no reason to think bicycles under her stewardship would fair any better 

In this case it can't be put down to being nervous of people seeing or commenting as she goes running in lycra and even stops off at the pub occasionally on her way back. That's not to say she doesnt get comments directed at her; I've witnessed a few unfortunates run off with their tales between their legs after foolishly offering her their opinions  She's a scary lady


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## Drago (21 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5123714, member: 10119"]No, it isn't acceptable. It's quite refreshing to see a bloke comment on finding it unwelcome - a very common response in such discussions that I've seen in the past is the 'well, I didn't mind' trope. Bear in mind too that it happens a LOT to many women, and mostly not when they are in the company on men so most men don't 'see' how prevalent catcalling is. 

As an aside, can I ask you to reflect on a use of language thing? Would you say that men who dress in sports-specific clothing are 'parading themselves around the road' or are they just riding their bikes? Also, female is generally adjectival, the relevant noun is women. The use of female(s) as a noun when referring to women is a linguistic trait that is extremely common in many of the less pleasant corners of the internet, in particular those inhabited by some distinctly unpleasant MRAs. A couple of explanations of why it can be somewhat irritating:
https://jezebel.com/the-problem-with-calling-women-females-1683808274
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/joshua-adams/female-is-an-adjective-not-a-noun_b_9604844.html[/QUOTE]

Gawd blimey guv, now there's a question.

Attractive women in tight fitting Lycra are not parading themselves around. They're entitled to wear it, just the same way I do. Yes, I'm a red blooded male and women can look very nice like that, but I don't perv at them or call them ribald names as they go by. 

I don't know if I'm a bit less atypical in this regard because I have 4 daughters perhaps?

Apologies if use of the word female was insulting in any way. I've been told off by some non-male members before for using the terms ladies and women, and I'm running out of words to describe them that don't upset someone somewhere. XX chromosome bearers, perhaps?


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## FishFright (21 Jan 2018)

vickster said:


> You've obviously never seen me after I've dragged myself up Box Hill
> 
> The rest of your post...errr wtf?



Do you find it amusing or saddening watching middle aged men earnestly discussing what wrong with your gender when it comes to cycling while desperately trying not to appear to be doing that ?


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## Gravity Aided (21 Jan 2018)

User said:


> “*What’s stopping women cycling?”
> *
> Patronising, mansplaining threads like this don’t help.


I thought this was going to be a thread about brake pads.


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## vickster (21 Jan 2018)

FishFright said:


> Do you find it amusing or saddening watching middle aged men earnestly discussing what wrong with your gender when it comes to cycling while desperately trying not to appear to be doing that ?


Befuddling in the case of that post


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## swansonj (21 Jan 2018)

vickster said:


> You've obviously never seen me after I've dragged myself up Box Hill
> 
> The rest of your post...errr wtf?





FishFright said:


> Do you find it amusing or saddening watching middle aged men earnestly discussing what wrong with your gender when it comes to cycling while desperately trying not to appear to be doing that ?


I apologise if I failed to express myself clearly - or, equally, if I expressed myself only too clearly and thereby revealed that I am not as far down the road of freeing myself from my chauvinistic instincts as I would like to be. 

What I was musing around is this. 
I believe that the present rise of road cycling culture, welcome in many ways, can lead to an image that cycling is a serious sport, only for people wanting to put themselves through serious exertion and probably pain. 

I was wondering to what extent this impression is created by men rather than women, and to what extent it is more offputting to women than to men. 

I recognise that I am not free enough from my own prejudices to come with a neutral answer to those questions on my own.


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## vickster (21 Jan 2018)

swansonj said:


> I apologise if I failed to express myself clearly - or, equally, if I expressed myself only too clearly and thereby revealed that I am not as far down the road of freeing myself from my chauvinistic instincts as I would like to be.
> 
> What I was musing around is this.
> I believe that the present rise of road cycling culture, welcome in many ways, can lead to an image that cycling is a serious sport, only for people wanting to put themselves through serious exertion and probably pain.
> ...


I personally doubt MAMILs in the Surrey hills have any influence on women cycling or not (not in Surrey and especially not anywhere else in the country, the original article is based on women's experiences in Leicester)


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## vickster (21 Jan 2018)

User said:


> most of us most likely saw it but didn't feel the need to mention it,


Precisely. Maybe the someone should have been in inverted commas


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## Heltor Chasca (21 Jan 2018)

vickster said:


> I personally doubt MAMILs in the Surrey hills...



Forgive me mentioning this from my rather lumpy location in the South West, but what are these ‘Surrey Hills’ you speak of?


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## vickster (21 Jan 2018)

Heltor Chasca said:


> Forgive me mentioning this from my rather lumpy location in the South West, but what are these ‘Surrey Hills’ you speak of?


Featured in the Olympic road races for example, popular with MAMILs who spend their weekdays earning mega bucks in Canary Wharf (if you like a stereotype)

http://www.surreyhills.org/discover/cycle/


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## User10119 (21 Jan 2018)

Drago said:


> Gawd blimey guv, now there's a question.
> 
> Attractive women in tight fitting Lycra are not parading themselves around. They're entitled to wear it, just the same way I do. Yes, I'm a red blooded male and women can look very nice like that, but I don't perv at them or call them ribald names as they go by.


Why does the attractiveness matter? Why does it matter whether or not you think some women look good in lycra? People can wear the clothes they want. The logical thing to wear when taking part in PE is PE kit. You may not 'perv at them or call them ribald names as they go by' (whoopee - what do you want, a medal?) but you did choose upthread to describe women wearing lycra as them 'parading themselves around the road'. Would it kill you when called out on that to say 'fair play, that wasn't really what I meant and I probably shouldn't have phrased it like that' instead of a bunch of self-serving guff about what a red-blooded man you are?



> Apologies if use of the word female was insulting in any way. I've been told off by some non-male members before for using the terms ladies and women, and I'm running out of words to describe them that don't upset someone somewhere. XX chromosome bearers, perhaps?


I know some women who find it pretty objectionable to be referred to as ladies. I'm intrigued by the context in which you perceive yourself to have been told off for using the nouns woman or women.


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## Globalti (21 Jan 2018)

_*Anthropologist hat on*_ Some people suggest that golf is a prey-chasing game. Is cycling therefore a territory-patrolling, fitness proving game? This thought used to strike me when I used to mountain bike in clubs and I used to watch the fit young men racing around, pulling stunts, showing off, almost sniffing around their territories like a pack of hounds. This was at the start of mountain biking in the mid 80s to early 90s when most riders seemed to be in their teens and twenties and quite a few came from BMX. 

Just a thought, like.


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## User10119 (21 Jan 2018)

As to actual reasons why fewer women cycle than men - I reckon there's loads of contributory factors. It is quite important to distinguish between reasons that an individual of any gender does or doesn't choose to ride a bike for sport/leisure/utility etc and the the reasons that groups of people may experience barriers to participation. A few starters, for ten...

we socialise girls out of, and boys into, being competitive from a fairly early age
we encourage risk-taking behaviours much more in our sons than we do in our daughters

boys are rewarded for being brave and strong and tough and girls for being pretty and well-behaved - so of course teenage girls tend to become incredibly self-conscious about sportswear and sweat and messed up hair
Women typically have

less disposable income
less available leisure time
and more caring responsibilities than men


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## Slick (21 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5123968, member: 10119"]As to actual reasons why fewer women cycle than men - I reckon there's loads of contributory factors. It is quite important to distinguish between reasons that an individual of any gender does or doesn't choose to ride a bike for sport/leisure/utility etc and the the reasons that groups of people may experience barriers to participation. A few starters, for ten...

we socialise girls out of, and boys into, being competitive from a fairly early age
we encourage risk-taking behaviours much more in our sons than we do in our daughters

boys are rewarded for being brave and strong and tough and girls for being pretty and well-behaved - so of course teenage girls tend to become incredibly self-conscious about sportswear and sweat and messed up hair
Women typically have
less disposable income
less available leisure time
and more caring responsibilities than men

[/QUOTE]
30 or 40 years ago maybe.


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## Slick (21 Jan 2018)

User13710 said:


> That thinking is what is part of the problem, unfortunately.


I was at the under 13 girls cyclocross today at Linlithgow and didn't recognise any of the traits as described in the post I was referring.


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## Julia9054 (21 Jan 2018)

Slick said:


> 30 or 40 years ago maybe.


Nope - still a thing.
I watch my sister in law with her two - one of each - and I despair.
I only have sons - hope I would have brought daughters up just the same but, due to my own conditioning, who can tell.


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## Slick (21 Jan 2018)

Julia9054 said:


> Nope - still a thing.
> I watch my sister in law with her two - one of each - and I despair.
> I only have sons - hope I would have brought daughters up just the same but, due to my own conditioning, who can tell.


Well that is sad. I had a great day watching these girls go toe to toe in tough conditions.


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## Slick (21 Jan 2018)

Julia9054 said:


> Nope - still a thing.
> I watch my sister in law with her two - one of each - and I despair.
> I only have sons - hope I would have brought daughters up just the same but, due to my own conditioning, who can tell.


I also remember 35 years ago or even more being thrown round the room by a very slightly built girl at Judo, and I was quite a large child. Her and her sister went on to become Scottish champions I think competing in commonwealth and Olympics. My only point my admittedly restricted experience tells me different but we all have different experiences.


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## Slick (21 Jan 2018)

User13710 said:


> So not '30 or 40 years ago maybe' either then.


No, these girls were exceptional and at that time it was still deemed very uncool for the girls to be seen putting in a bit of effort.


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## User10119 (21 Jan 2018)

Slick said:


> I was at the under 13 girls cyclocross today at Linlithgow and didn't recognise any of the traits as described in the post I was referring.


Remember - distinguish between the individuals and the groups. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/15/well/family/talking-to-boys-the-way-we-talk-to-girls.html


> Just as women’s studies classes have long examined the ways that gendered language undermines women and girls, a growing body of research shows that stereotypical messages are similarly damaging to boys.





> What’s more, a 2017 study led by Emory University researchers discovered, among other things, that fathers also sing and smile more to their daughters, and they use language that is more “analytical” and that acknowledges their sadness far more than they do with their sons. The words they use with sons are more focused on achievement — such as “win” and “proud.”





> After visits to the emergency room for accidental injuries, another study found, parents of both genders talk differently to sons than they do to daughters. They are nearly four times more likely to tell girls than boys to be more careful if undertaking the same activity again. The same study cited earlier research which found that parents of both genders used “directives” when teaching their 2- to 4-year-old sons how to climb down a playground pole but offered extensive “explanations” to daughters.





> Why do we limit the emotional vocabulary of boys?
> 
> We tell ourselves we are preparing our sons to fight (literally and figuratively), to compete in a world and economy that’s brutish and callous. The sooner we can groom them for this dystopian future, the better off they’ll be. But the Harvard psychologist Susan David insists the opposite is true: “Research shows that people who suppress emotions have lower-level resilience and emotional health.”


And yes, I am perfectly aware that the point of that article is that this gender-differentiated approach to raising children damages boys -
View attachment 392569


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## Globalti (21 Jan 2018)

I remember when I lived in France, taking a woman I fancied for a day bouldering at Fontainebleau. She enjoyed the physical exercise and the new experience but said afterwards that at first she had felt inhibited about stretching out her arms and legs and holding poses that she thought "pas feminines" but soon forgot that and got into the swing of the scrambling route we followed, marked over the boulders.


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## BoldonLad (21 Jan 2018)

Globalti said:


> I remember when I lived in France, taking a woman I fancied for a day bouldering at Fontainebleau. She enjoyed the physical exercise and the new experience but said afterwards that at first she had felt inhibited about stretching out her arms and legs and holding poses that she thought "pas feminines" but soon forgot that and got into the swing of the scrambling route we followed, marked over the boulders.



"taking a woman I fancied", are you allowed to say that?


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## vickster (21 Jan 2018)

BoldonLad said:


> "taking a woman I fancied", are you allowed to say that?


I think his sentence is missing a bunch of commas!?


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## User10119 (21 Jan 2018)

On the way we treat children differently - in ways that will have long term impacts on their long term abilities in spatial awareness and their emotional intelligence - from when they are tiny pre-verbal babies based on the gender that we perceive them to be:



> The toys children play with have an impact not only on how they see themselves and on what skills they learn, but also on how their brains physically develop.
> Some psychologists argue that this helps to explain why certain professions are so male-dominated. An increasing number of parents and carers now say they try to avoid gender-stereotyped play.
> As this experiment shows, though, it’s not always easy to overcome your own prejudices.


From the following - which includes a 3 minute extract from a fairly interesting documentary
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/magazine-40936719/gender-specific-toys-do-you-stereotype-children


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## User10119 (21 Jan 2018)

Regarding pay
View attachment 392570


https://visual.ons.gov.uk/what-is-the-gender-pay-gap/

Although I am struggling to find evidence of how that translates into diposable income rather than earnings. Might I be permitted one item of anecdata? When I was in a relationship, my then partner contributed into a shared household account a sum which was used for household expenses including the mortgage and bills and so on. The sum he contributed was greater than my total earnings. The sum he kept in his account for him to choose what to do with (and in fairness this did occasionally include things like new furniture or an overpayment on the mortgage - when he chose to do so) also exceeded, by even more, my total earnings. Every penny I earned got spent - mostly on childcare, child-related expenses, household expenses, shopping, and what was left as my disposable income.


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## Slick (21 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5124045, member: 10119"]Regarding pay
View attachment 392570


https://visual.ons.gov.uk/what-is-the-gender-pay-gap/

Although I am struggling to find evidence of how that translates into diposable income rather than earnings. Might I be permitted one item of anecdata? When I was in a relationship, my then partner contributed into a shared household account a sum which was used for household expenses including the mortgage and bills and so on. The sum he contributed was greater than my total earnings. The sum he kept in his account for him to choose what to do with (and in fairness this did occasionally include things like new furniture or an overpayment on the mortgage - when he chose to do so) also exceeded, by even more, my total earnings. Every penny I earned got spent - mostly on childcare, child-related expenses, household expenses, shopping, and what was left as my disposable income.[/QUOTE]
As I said we're all different, but I have always been the bigger earner and the money just goes in the pot. There's no hers and his, it's there for whoever needs it.


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## derrick (21 Jan 2018)

sarahale said:


> , Sexual harassment is a huge problem, I'm even a target in winter when wearing very unattractive waterproof clothing which suggests they just do it because they think it's acceptable. And hilarious.


Have seen and heard this quite a lot in one club i used to ride with, The guy was reported a few times. but no action was ever taken as he was a long time member. The club i ride with now i still hear the odd condescending comment, but most of the time the girls give it back,


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## jefmcg (21 Jan 2018)

derrick said:


> girls


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## Globalti (21 Jan 2018)

As recently as 1971 when we moved from rural Oxfordshire to Newcastle upon Tyne, my sister and I were enrolled at Gosforth High School. On the first day we cycled the three miles to school as always but my sister arriving on a bicycle caused a scandal amongst the other pupils. She was so upset by the reaction that she never rode her bike again.


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## Fab Foodie (21 Jan 2018)

jefmcg said:


> View attachment 392574


Serious question; Is it never acceptable to call women, girls? Wrongly probs, I would for example speak of boys and girls in conversation as in with people in the office ‘how are we today boys and girls’. Refering to a group of men I would in most cases refer to them as boys if it were people I was familiar with.


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## PK99 (21 Jan 2018)

Slick said:


> As I said we're all different, but I have always been the bigger earner and the money just goes in the pot. There's no hers and his, it's there for whoever needs it.



Same here, from when we started living together we had a joint account into which salaries were paid and no individual accounts. 

At various stages we have both been the "bigger earner", there has never been an issue.


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## screenman (21 Jan 2018)

When we got married all our money went into a pot, Pam though had thirty years of being unpaid, and by the time she started earning the system had changed.


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## User10119 (21 Jan 2018)

I did eventually track down this... https://www.retailgazette.co.uk/blog/2017/07/average-disposable-income-uk-falls-100/ from July last year, no idea how rigorous the survey in question was of course!


> Meanwhile, men still have a larger disposable income with £370 a month to spare, or 28 per cent more than women who have just £288 left in their accounts after paying bills.
> 
> However, this gap is a slight improvement on last year, when the average disposable income for men was 32 per cent more than women.


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## BoldonLad (21 Jan 2018)

£370 / month spenders! 

I can see I am being far to generous with Mrs @BoldonLad I shall have to make her put more "in the pot".

No wonder she is out cycling at every opportunity!


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## jefmcg (21 Jan 2018)

Fab Foodie said:


> Serious question; Is it never acceptable to call women, girls? Wrongly probs, I would for example speak of boys and girls in conversation as in with people in the office ‘how are we today boys and girls’. Refering to a group of men I would in most cases refer to them as boys if it were people I was familiar with.


I'd try not to use it if I was you. I know a lot of women don't mind, but I think they should. Infantilising women and valuing youth and beauty above any other assets seems tied up in that word.


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## SkipdiverJohn (21 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5124055, member: 9609"]is the simple answer not just men are different to women ? .[/QUOTE]

Men are very different from women, always have been, and always will be. The PC brigade with all their trendy gender neutral crap are deluding themselves if they think it will make one iota of difference. It won't. The differences are there to see from an early age; little boys tend to be more manic and boisterous and little girls more docile and affectionate. That's just the way nature makes them.
Many women regard strenuous exercise or doing anything that involves getting hot and sweaty or really filthy as unfeminine, and they avoid certain activities or types of jobs for this reason. How many women do you see digging holes in the road or working on a dustcart? Virtually none - and the main reason, aside from the physical ability aspect, is that this sort of thing just doesn't appeal to many women. Likewise, you won't find very many men who want to do the sort of "caring" jobs that involve wiping other people's backsides for them. It's always been that way, and always will be that way.


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## jefmcg (21 Jan 2018)

We need to do something to close the wormhole that has opened to the 1950s. It's letting all sorts of nonsense through.


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## User10119 (21 Jan 2018)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> The differences are there to see from an early age; little boys tend to be more manic and boisterous and little girls more docile and affectionate. That's just the way nature makes them.



Did you check out that video upthread about the way that people treat babies differently depending on what they (as it turns out, incorrectly) perceive their gender to be? It's quite interesting.


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## vickster (21 Jan 2018)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Men are very different from women, always have been, and always will be. The PC brigade with all their trendy gender neutral crap are deluding themselves if they think it will make one iota of difference. It won't. The differences are there to see from an early age; little boys tend to be more manic and boisterous and little girls more docile and affectionate. That's just the way nature makes them.
> Many women regard strenuous exercise or doing anything that involves getting hot and sweaty or really filthy as unfeminine, and they avoid certain activities or types of jobs for this reason. How many women do you see digging holes in the road or working on a dustcart? Virtually none - and the main reason, aside from the physical ability aspect, is that this sort of thing just doesn't appeal to many women. Likewise, you won't find very many men who want to do the sort of "caring" jobs that involve wiping other people's backsides for them. It's always been that way, and always will be that way.


Try going to Myanmar. Then you'll see lots of women doing just the jobs you describe


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## bpsmith (21 Jan 2018)

Linked to some points made above, but different topic, so created a separate thread.

https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/is-equal-prize-money-fair-or-not.229600/


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## BoldonLad (21 Jan 2018)

vickster said:


> Try going to Myanmar. Then you'll see lots of women doing just the jobs you describe



That may be because in Myanmar, opportunities for other jobs (for women) are more limited?

I have for example noticed that in some countries (Spain, UAE, and Ukraine, to name three) it is much more common to see women doing, for example, street cleaning jobs, than it is in UK. Not sure however that that implies greater degree of equality?


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## Julia9054 (21 Jan 2018)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Men are very different from women, always have been, and always will be. The PC brigade with all their trendy gender neutral crap are deluding themselves if they think it will make one iota of difference. It won't. The differences are there to see from an early age; little boys tend to be more manic and boisterous and little girls more docile and affectionate. That's just the way nature makes them.
> Many women regard strenuous exercise or doing anything that involves getting hot and sweaty or really filthy as unfeminine, and they avoid certain activities or types of jobs for this reason. How many women do you see digging holes in the road or working on a dustcart? Virtually none - and the main reason, aside from the physical ability aspect, is that this sort of thing just doesn't appeal to many women. Likewise, you won't find very many men who want to do the sort of "caring" jobs that involve wiping other people's backsides for them. It's always been that way, and always will be that way.


You do realise that everyone is on a bell curve in terms of typical "feminine" and "masculine" qualities. If you feel that you can disentange nature from nurture, you must share your insights - I'm sure the scientific community would be interested to know.


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## Mugshot (21 Jan 2018)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> How many women do you see digging holes in the road or working on a dustcart? Virtually none - and the main reason, aside from the physical ability aspect, is that this sort of thing just doesn't appeal to many women.


They don't appeal to me either frankly and I was a man when I checked in the shower about 5 minutes ago.


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## SkipdiverJohn (21 Jan 2018)

vickster said:


> Try going to Myanmar. Then you'll see lots of women doing just the jobs you describe



The difference between the developed West, and the rest of the planet, is that there is a far bigger element of choice in the West, which results in jobs being done on a preference-oriented basis. In poor countries, it's a matter of survival, not choice.


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## BoldonLad (21 Jan 2018)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> The difference between the developed West, and the rest of the planet, is that there is a far bigger element of choice in the West, which results in jobs being done on a preference-oriented basis. In poor countries, it's a matter of survival, not choice.


 My point exactly, more subtly put.


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## User10119 (21 Jan 2018)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> [_Stuff_]



Quick Q - is there any risk of you offering any kind of source, citation, or evidence to substantiate any of these opinions? Or even, perhaps, maybe, offering some views that are somewhat less tangential to the discussion?


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## sarahale (21 Jan 2018)

derrick said:


> The club i ride with now i still hear the odd condescending comment, but most of the time the girls give it back,



I just wish to ride my bike and not have to worry. How many men on here have had their bums slapped? Have had a member of the opposite sex expose their genitals to them when they were alone at night. Have had someone tell them they will have their way with you without your consent when you were alone in an underpass. These have all happened to me and I've actually been flashed twice. I cycle alone 99% of the time and I'm very small so guessing look like a nice weak target. Most recently I was cycling into town, completely minding my own business not even on the road as it's a segregated cycle lane, and a car with 4 grown boys in pulled alongside me and started yelling 'would I do them?' And then when I didn't acknowledge them one of them said 'she's minging anyway' absolutely hilarious I'm sure you'll all agree but could feel everyone's eyes on me as they had slowed down and traffic built up behind them. Doesn't exactly make you feel great to be on the receiving end of that. 

It's not the whole problem but it's the most worrying for me. Why do these pathetic people think they can just say what they want?


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## Julia9054 (21 Jan 2018)

sarahale said:


> I just wish to ride my bike and not have to worry. How many men on here have had their bums slapped? Have had a member of the opposite sex expose their genitals to them when they were alone at night. Have had someone tell them they will have their way with you without your consent when you were alone in an underpass. These have all happened to me and I've actually been flashed twice. I cycle alone 99% of the time and I'm very small so guessing look like a nice weak target. Most recently I was cycling into town, completely minding my own business not even on the road as it's a segregated cycle lane, and a car with 4 grown boys in pulled alongside me and started yelling 'would I do them?' And then when I didn't acknowledge them one of them said 'she's minging anyway' absolutely hilarious I'm sure you'll all agree but could feel everyone's eyes on me as they had slowed down and traffic built up behind them. Doesn't exactly make you feel great to be on the receiving end of that.
> 
> It's not the whole problem but it's the most worrying for me. Why do these pathetic people think they can just say what they want?


Sadly fairly unremarkable in every way


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## Markymark (21 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5124055, member: 9609"]is the simple answer not just men are different to women ? Our species seemed to take an evolutionary route of men doing the hunting and providing and women the caring and raising children, sport just seems to be some sort of extension of the hunting bit, hence why more men participate.
It's wonderful the way our society is developing where we can more easily interchange roles and hopefully a more neutral gender based upbringing will allow us all to better tailor our lifestyles to our hearts, however I think our basic nature will always determine sport is a bigger thing for men.[/QUOTE]
They want to change the name of hunter gatherers to foragers as they suggest most food cane from foraging equally of men and women wher as hunting was mainly ceremonial and played a very small part of calories consumed.


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## User10119 (21 Jan 2018)

@sarahale - I can't 'like' that, but yeah....
View attachment 392607


I'm fat, ginger and speccy so have been on the receiving end of verbal abuse as long as I can remember and despite being fat, ginger and speccy I still get, occasionally, the kind of sexualised verbal abuse you talk about when riding my bike. Very occasionally these days, because I don't ride that much! However I'm not sure that it's worse than when walking or using public transport - and it's the sort of thing that would discourage women who have cycled and experienced it rather be off-putting to those who don't cycle. I suspect that, as you say, it is only one part of the problem.


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## bpsmith (21 Jan 2018)

Some harsh examples of unfair behaviour there tbh.


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## Milzy (21 Jan 2018)

Same with running. Less female runners.


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## sarahale (21 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5124284, member: 10119"]@sarahale - I can't 'like' that, but yeah....
View attachment 392607


I'm fat, ginger and speccy so have been on the receiving end of verbal abuse as long as I can remember and despite being fat, ginger and speccy I still get, occasionally, the kind of sexualised verbal abuse you talk about when riding my bike. Very occasionally these days, because I don't ride that much! However I'm not sure that it's worse than when walking or using public transport - and it's the sort of thing that would discourage women who have cycled and experienced it rather be off-putting to those who don't cycle. I suspect that, as you say, it is only one part of the problem.[/QUOTE]

I've never had more than a beep from the odd van when walking but that's not to say it doesn't happen, just for me personally I seem to be far more of a target on my bike. 

There are a couple of ladies at work who live very close and wish to cycle but don't. I think one just can't be bothered and the other is too worried about the roads. So lots of different reasons I just went on a bit as its beginning to put me off.


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## User10119 (21 Jan 2018)

bpsmith said:


> Some harsh examples of unfair behaviour there tbh.



Sorry - I don't actually know what you mean. Any chance you could expand on this?

(and please note, just in case - I'm not having a pop or anything. Whenever I say 'I don't understand, please explain' I really do mean exactly that, and am trying to understand what someone is saying rather than assume)


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## jefmcg (21 Jan 2018)

Markymark said:


> They want to change the name of hunter gatherers to foragers as they suggest most food cane from foraging equally of men and women wher as hunting was mainly ceremonial and played a very small part of calories consumed.


Did you notice that @User9609 missed the "gatherer" part out entirely. In his version, the men were all out hunting and "providing" while the women sat at home eating paleo-bon bons.


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## bpsmith (21 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5124304, member: 10119"]Sorry - I don't actually know what you mean. Any chance you could expand on this?

(and please note, just in case - I'm not having a pop or anything. Whenever I say 'I don't understand, please explain' I really do mean exactly that, and am trying to understand what someone is saying rather than assume)[/QUOTE]
Absolutely.

The couple of posts further up about having your bums slapped, car full of Men shouting with threatening behaviour, etc.

I find that beyond acceptable behaviour. Apologies if I didn’t convey that.


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## User10119 (21 Jan 2018)

bpsmith said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> The couple of posts further up about having your bums slapped, car full of Men shouting with threatening behaviour, etc.
> 
> I find that beyond acceptable behaviour. Apologies if I didn’t convey that.


Gotcha.

Yup, it happens and yup, it is absolutely s**t - when cycling, as it it is all the other times and places that it happens.


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## Fab Foodie (21 Jan 2018)

sarahale said:


> How many men on here have had their bums slapped?


I have. Whilst cycling.


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## bpsmith (21 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5124333, member: 10119"]Gotcha.

Yup, it happens and yup, it is absolutely s**t - when cycling, as it it is all the other times and places that it happens.[/QUOTE]
True.


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## Fab Foodie (21 Jan 2018)

Milzy said:


> Same with running. Less female runners.


That’s certainly not the case from my observations.


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## SkipdiverJohn (21 Jan 2018)

User13710 said:


> It all depends on whether or not you think being able to sweep a street or empty a dustbin is actually a valid measure of anything remotely valuable in this discussion - this discussion of why more women don't cycle.



Some of the reasons more women don't cycle are exactly the same reasons why more women aren't willing to do certain kinds of jobs. It's an entirely valid comparison. If an activity is perceived as unfeminine, many women will avoid participating in it. Vigorous cycling in particular is not something that appeals to a lot of women. 
Certain other reasons, such as the abuse and perceived danger from attackers, unfortunately are down to the minority of men who don't have any respect for women. Unfortunately that small male minority are not going to disappear, so it comes down to a choice of give back as good as you get or let the disrespecters claim victory. 
The fact that women will tend to avoid confrontation by not doing an activity where they may receive abuse, whereas a man receiving abuse will likely end up having a ruck with the abuser, just highlights the very real differences between the sexes.


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## User10119 (21 Jan 2018)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> _[another bunch of opinions presented as facts]_



[QUOTE 5124239, member: 10119"]Quick Q - is there any risk of you offering any kind of source, citation, or evidence to substantiate any of these opinions?[/QUOTE]


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## Fab Foodie (21 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5124333, member: 10119"]Gotcha.

Yup, it happens and yup, it is absolutely s**t - when cycling, as it it is all the other times and places that it happens.[/QUOTE]
Some forms of abuse and threatening behaviour happens to men and mostly but not exclusively by men. There is an element in society that need to get it’s kicks humiliating/scaring or venting their inadequacies at people they percieve as vunerable. Women they probably see as the easiest targets, it’s bullying pure and simple.
What men don’t get to face is the sexual bullying which must be far more pervasive, everyday, and threatening.

How do we change this in respect to cycling?


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## User10119 (21 Jan 2018)

Fab Foodie said:


> Some forms of abuse and threatening behaviour happens to men and mostly but not exclusively by men. There is an element in society that need to get it’s kicks humiliating/scaring or venting their inadequacies at people they percieve as vunerable. Women they probably see as the easiest targets, it’s bullying pure and simple.
> What men don’t get to face is the sexual bullying which must be far more pervasive, everyday, and threatening.
> 
> How do we change this in respect to cycling?



View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruBqetaMd5g


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## Fab Foodie (21 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5124373, member: 10119"]
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruBqetaMd5g[/QUOTE]
I get that.
It’s incumbent apon us all to challenge such behaviours, but it’s not easy to do whilst cycling, especially alone.
We can of course with ’clubmates’.


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## mustang1 (21 Jan 2018)

User13710 said:


> Does (b) mean '[she] can't be seen to be having fun', or '[cycling] doesn't look like fun'?


The first one


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## jefmcg (21 Jan 2018)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> t. Vigorous cycling in particular is not something that appeals to a lot of women.


You've clearly never been to a spin class.


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## screenman (22 Jan 2018)

One of my customers employs 11 people, 5 of these are women 4 of them ride bikes to work, only 1 of the six men do.


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## mjr (22 Jan 2018)

jefmcg said:


> They don't need to do it because they know there will always be other men on the ride.


This is not true in my experience and perpetuating the myth doesn't help.


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## User10119 (22 Jan 2018)

mjr said:


> This is not true in my experience and perpetuating the myth doesn't help.



How many club runs and social rides, other than those specifically aimed at women such as the Breeze rides and assuming that a few people actually turn up, don't have at least a couple of men attending? How frequently does Pale Rider's Sunday group not include at least a couple of men? This isn't saying there will be only men, or that the men will be in any way unwelcoming towards women who join the ride - but I imagine that on the majority of organised rides it would be a reasonable bet that there'd be another bloke there.


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## mjr (22 Jan 2018)

User said:


> Funny that a lot of the research would suggest otherwise...


Is there some recent research you'd like to link? The article in the OP links mostly old data from Sustrans and Brutish Cycling.


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## mjr (22 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5124545, member: 10119"]How many club runs and social rides, other than those specifically aimed at women such as the Breeze rides and assuming that a few people actually turn up, don't have at least a couple of men attending? How frequently does Pale Rider's Sunday group not include at least a couple of men? This isn't saying there will be only men, or that the men will be in any way unwelcoming towards women who join the ride - but I imagine that on the majority of organised rides it would be a reasonable bet that there'd be another bloke there.[/QUOTE]
Some (and some Breeze rides have had so-called "honorary women"), and no idea but I doubt the claimant has either. I agree about the majority but that's a much smaller proportion than always.


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## mjr (22 Jan 2018)

User said:


> Just because you don't the the research doesn't mean that it's invalid or irrelevant.


And the missing verb is?

EDIT, as the previous post was edited: It's not that I don't like the research - I can't dislike the research, because I'm not sure what farking research you're waving your hands at, hence the question!  I know various bits of research but it's variously old (like the Sustrans 2013 one linked in the OP article) or untrustworthy (such as linked to BC's attempt to justify its spending on Breeze instead of fixing/reforming their existing local groups), so basically I was asking if you've got anything recent... or shall we just keep on using the pre-Breeze research and assume that Breeze has had no effect for good or ill?


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## Markymark (22 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5124525, member: 9609"]of course we can and I hope we do, did I not suggest this in my second sentence?


What sport comes from gathering though ? sport seems to mostly come from the hunting / warring part of our culture, traits very much associated with males.

Getting back to the OP, I still think the reason we see less women cycling is that sport / exercise does not appeal to them in the same way as it does to men. I'm sure there is a big Nature/Nurture balance to this, and hopefully as society develops and we have more gender neutral upbringings then we will see more women cycling, but I doubt it.

On a wider thought, the days of muscle and strength are over as it can all be now done by machine, the future is in creativity, and in this field men could well be on the back foot. I think we need gender neutral upbringings to reinvent men not women.[/QUOTE]
Actually most sports are based on 3D spacial awareness, not necessarily hunting.


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## User10119 (22 Jan 2018)

mjr said:


> Some (and some Breeze rides have had so-called "honorary women"), and no idea but I doubt the claimant has either. I agree about the majority but that's a much smaller proportion than always.


And if we take the specific group that Pale Rider was discussing


Pale Rider said:


> I've ridden *just with one of our women members* several times, and there's no doubt a significant number of other male road users gawp at her.
> [...]
> In our *group*, a woman member is less inclined to come out if she thinks she will be the only woman.
> [...]
> The *men *just turn up irrespective



So it happens sometimes that a woman on the ride is sometimes the only woman on the ride. It's described as a group ride, not going out for a ride with a mate, and the men (plural) just turn up without checking who else is going. It doesn't seem an unreasonable inference that there's always more than one man in attendance. @Pale Rider - would it be possible to clarify if, when the group goes out, you can take it as read there will be more than one man there?


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## User10119 (22 Jan 2018)

Markymark said:


> Actually most sports are based on 3D spacial awareness, not necessarily hunting.



And I really recommend that video that I linked to upthread for some insight into the way that the perceived gender of a child affects the toys we offer that child and the way that affects their long term brain development, specifically in the area of spacial awareness. One of the things I found very interesting in the 'no more girls and boys' documentary about aiming for a gender-neutral classroom was that the girls at the age of around 7 or 8 already performed significantly less well in activities that required spatial awareness. The theory expounded was that girls are not typically given the same access to or encouragement to use the kind of construction, engineering and mathematical toys as boys - from being babies. The class was then given tangram puzzles, which develop spatial awareness, to do on a regular basis and the girls' performance massively improved in those spatial awareness activities. There were of course different but parallel gains made by the boys who were encouraged into role play, caring, imaginative and crafting activities that they had previously not accessed because they were 'for girls'. The conclusion they seemed to reach was that spatial awareness is not an innate part of being male - just as emotional intelligence is not an innate part of being female - but these traits and skills are learned and developed and the way we raise our children tends to encourage different traits in boys and girls.


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## Mugshot (22 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5124525, member: 9609"]What sport comes from gathering though ?[/QUOTE]
Hungry Hungry Hippos?


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## User10119 (22 Jan 2018)

Mugshot said:


> Hungry Hungry Hippos?



*snorts, deeply unattractively, with laughter*


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## bpsmith (22 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5124597, member: 10119"]*snorts, deeply unattractively, with laughter*[/QUOTE]
Why does it matter that it’s unattractive? Was that entrenched in your psyche from a young age?


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## User10119 (22 Jan 2018)

bpsmith said:


> Why does it matter that it’s unattractive? Was that entrenched in your psyche from a young age?


Naturally. It's so very important to be decorous, wouldn't you say?
Similarly,


Spoiler: Contains swearing




View attachment 392631


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## mjr (22 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5124564, member: 10119"]And if we take the specific group that Pale Rider was discussing


So it happens sometimes that a woman on the ride is sometimes the only woman on the ride. It's described as a group ride, not going out for a ride with a mate, and the men (plural) just turn up without checking who else is going. It doesn't seem an unreasonable inference that there's always more than one man in attendance. @Pale Rider - would it be possible to clarify if, when the group goes out, you can take it as read there will be more than one man there?[/QUOTE]
So is your position that the reply I quoted was adding nothing?


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## User10119 (22 Jan 2018)

mjr said:


> So is your position that the reply I quoted was adding nothing?


Which reply?

ETA - I'd be surprised if that was my position. I think I would probably have said that was my position if it was my position. I'm generally fairly straightforward like that most of the time; it comes from years of living with an Aspie followed by (so far) 16annabit years of parenting one.

ETAagain - which also means you get very used to saying something and then realising that someone else has understood what you have said in a completely different way to what you intended because mind-blindness, and therefore tend to seek clarification quite a lot.


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## mjr (22 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5124650, member: 10119"]Which reply?[/QUOTE]
The second paragraph of https://www.cyclechat.net/posts/5123715


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## User10119 (22 Jan 2018)

mjr said:


> The second paragraph of https://www.cyclechat.net/posts/5123715



So you mean


jefmcg said:


> They don't need to do it because they know there will always be other men on the ride.


?

I'm not quite sure what I've posted that would lead you to believe that I think @jefmcg's post 'adds nothing'. It points it out that men don't need to check if there's likely to be other men on a ride, because men already know the answer. That's one reason that women are perhaps more likely to check out who is going on a ride than men are. I think it's phrased rather more brusquely than I would tend to phrase things, but, looking at the meaning rather than the tone, it seems a pretty fair point to me.


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## jay clock (22 Jan 2018)

I am in a tri -club which is now close to 50% female membership. And in the past year more female new joiners than men. And they all cycle. I see a lot of women out on the roads, although probably no more than 15% of the total.


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## User10119 (22 Jan 2018)

It's great when you see those changes happening, isn't it? Can I ask, what do you think has led to the increase in women joining the club?


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## mjr (22 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5124663, member: 10119"]
I'm not quite sure what I've posted that would lead you to believe that I think @jefmcg's post 'adds nothing'.[/quote]
That the claim:

[QUOTE 5124663, member: 10119"]
It points it out that men don't need to check if there's likely to be other men on a ride, because men already know the answer.[/QUOTE]
only applies to one specific ride and not rides in general.


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## User10119 (22 Jan 2018)

mjr said:


> That the claim:
> 
> 
> only applies to one specific ride and not rides in general.



By that logic, @Pale Rider's post 'adds nothing' (and every other post that recounts one individidual's experience/views/opinions, or those of their wife) yet you don't seem to find that one (or those ones) objectionable?


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## User10119 (22 Jan 2018)

And in terms of 'adding something' I do reckon that it is quite useful, when men tell women what women think, and feel, and the reasons that women do or don't do things, that if you are a woman who disagrees with what you are being told you think, and feel, and the reasons that you do or don't do things to say so. And maybe, just maybe, it would be good manners for the men to listen to the women explaining what they think, and feel, and the reasons that they do or don't do things rather than just telling them that they are wrong?


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## BoldonLad (22 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5124695, member: 10119"]And in terms of 'adding something' I do reckon that it is quite useful, when men tell women what women think, and feel, and the reasons that women do or don't do things, that if you are a woman who disagrees with what you are being told you think, and feel, and the reasons that you do or don't do things to say so. And maybe, just maybe, it would be good manners for the men to listen to the women explaining what they think, and feel, and the reasons that they do or don't do things rather than just telling them that they are wrong?[/QUOTE]

Fair point. All men (including me) need to delete their post(s) in this thread, forthwith.


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## User10119 (22 Jan 2018)

BoldonLad said:


> Fair point. All men (including me) need to delete their post(s) in this thread, forthwith.



Nope.
Not what I said.
Not what I implied.
Not what I think.


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## jefmcg (22 Jan 2018)

mjr said:


> only applies to one specific ride and not rides in general.


I probably see at least a dozen club ride if I go out on a Sunday. It's not uncommon to see all men in a group, but I don't think I've ever noticed an all female group.

Even if there was a hypothetical club that was mostly women, you still wouldn't find men getting online to see if other men would be there. Men who were uncomfortable being the only man, would just join the next club up the road, which is likely to be 80% male.


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## jefmcg (22 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5124525, member: 9609"]What sport comes from gathering though[/QUOTE]
Golf ⛳


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## Alan O (22 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5124525, member: 9609"]What sport comes from gathering though ?[/QUOTE]
Mangold hurling - http://www.mangoldhurling.co.uk/


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## MontyVeda (22 Jan 2018)

jefmcg said:


> Did you notice that @User9609 missed the "gatherer" part out entirely. In his version, the men were all out hunting and "providing" while the women sat at home eating paleo-bon bons.


To be fair... this is what i was told at school and if i recall correctly, is how it was depicted in my Labybird early readers book of prehistoric life. I imagine many people still retain this 'vision' of prehistory since it was forged in their minds at a rather young age. 
I'm lucky... i recently watched a documentary on prehistoric life which painted a picture in which younger adults (parents) did the hunting, gathering and foraging whilst older adults (grandparents) minded the children and probably kept an eye on the stew too. 
I presume there's a lot of assumptions with regards to prehistoric life since we can't actually know who did what on a day-to-day basis... but the modern assumption makes more sense (to me anyway) than the old male-centric one depicted in my Ladybird book.


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## mjr (22 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5124690, member: 10119"]By that logic, @Pale Rider's post 'adds nothing' (and every other post that recounts one individidual's experience/views/opinions, or those of their wife) yet you don't seem to find that one (or those ones) objectionable?[/QUOTE]
I have objected to some other posts in this thread by using the "Report" link like @Moderators are always asking us to. Ask them why those posts remain if it bothers you. Of course, this leaves me open to this sort of accusation, but that problem's been discussed in other threads during the last few months.

Nice side-stepping of whether PR's post justifies the reply as I thought you were claiming (but the above suggests you aren't), or whether (as I thought) the reply was seeking to make a point about all rides.


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## MontyVeda (22 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5124762, member: 9609"]to be fair if it was a modern day production it would need to be politically correct.
*However, the information that has been gleaned from cave paintings (and these are the only real records) don't show that*[/QUOTE]
links please.


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## mjr (22 Jan 2018)

jefmcg said:


> I probably see at least a dozen club ride if I go out on a Sunday. It's not uncommon to see all men in a group, but I don't think I've ever noticed an all female group.


You know your area better than me and that seems kind of sad.



jefmcg said:


> Even if there was a hypothetical club that was mostly women, you still wouldn't find men getting online to see if other men would be there. Men who were uncomfortable being the only man, would just join the next club up the road, which is likely to be 80% male.


I don't think the second is true where I've ridden, partly because "the next club up the road" is often likely to be very different in some way. Especially freewheeling clubs aren't so common yet.

I sort of agree that you wouldn't find men getting online to see if other men would be there, but you would find men getting online to see who else would be there. Are women really looking primarily to see if other women would be there, rather than looking to see if anyone they know will be there, or if it's a group new to them, what sort of mix of riders are there and whether anyone is similar to their style?


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## BSOh (22 Jan 2018)

MontyVeda said:


> To be fair... this is what i was told at school and if i recall correctly, is how it was depicted in my Labybird early readers book of prehistoric life. I imagine many people still retain this 'vision' of prehistory since it was forged in their minds at a rather young age.
> I'm lucky... i recently watched a documentary on prehistoric life which painted a picture in which younger adults (parents) did the hunting, gathering and foraging whilst older adults (grandparents) minded the children and probably kept an eye on the stew too.
> I presume there's a lot of assumptions with regards to prehistoric life since we can't actually know who did what on a day-to-day basis... but the modern assumption makes more sense (to me anyway) than the old male-centric one depicted in my Ladybird book.



Yea. Archaeologically and anthropologically speaking, in terms of prehistoric dinner getting, the 1960's promoted the idea of man the hunter etc, and also the opposite utopian ideal of egalitarianism. There is very little evidence of any gendered activity at all. The idea that man was out hunting large game while women stayed at home looking after the kids is pure fantasy.


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## Pale Rider (22 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5124564, member: 10119"]And if we take the specific group that Pale Rider was discussing


So it happens sometimes that a woman on the ride is sometimes the only woman on the ride. It's described as a group ride, not going out for a ride with a mate, and the men (plural) just turn up without checking who else is going. It doesn't seem an unreasonable inference that there's always more than one man in attendance. @Pale Rider - would it be possible to clarify if, when the group goes out, you can take it as read there will be more than one man there?[/QUOTE]

Yes, the group leader misses only a couple of rides a year and he is a man, so realistically there will always be other men at the meeting point.

I think it's relevant to the discussion that some of our women members don't want to be the only woman riding, although we have had rides with only one woman in the group, and rides with none.

To be clear, the rides where I noticed the woman rider being gawped at were just me and her riding together, although gawping also happens when we are out as a mixed group.


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## MontyVeda (22 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5124781, member: 9609"]where were yours ? [/QUOTE]
one is the Labybird early readers book of prehistoric life which provided the male-centric version... can't recall the name of the documentary which offered a different scenario, i have hundreds but if i find it, I'll let you know.

[edit]... it could have been the more recent Seven Ages of Britain.

Now these cave paintings you mention which show wifey washing up whilst hubby goes hunting mammoth...


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## Markymark (22 Jan 2018)

Teamwork skills, ie collaboration and sharing information is more akin to foraging than hunting which is generally solitary.


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## Joey Shabadoo (22 Jan 2018)

From what I've read about pre-Iron Age civilisations, hunting was a group activity where large numbers were needed to herd animals into areas where they could be killed with the limited weapons available. To that end it makes sense that anyone who could run would be co-opted into the hunt because it was a stamina event, not a strength one.


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## derrick (22 Jan 2018)

Reading this, i understand why there are less women on bikes,Even i would not want to ride with some of you lot.


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## Profpointy (22 Jan 2018)

Markymark said:


> Teamwork skills, ie collaboration and sharing information is more akin to foraging than hunting which is generally solitary.



Dunno about that. You'd need bigger balls than me (metaphorically, given the thread) to hunt down a woolly mammoth on your own. Quite apart from dragging it home on your own in the unlikely event that you actually kill it rather than the other way round. 
Have you seen those Massai lads nicking a kill off a pride of lions - they don't try that alone either

Maybe ot now, though a grain of a point remains


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## Markymark (22 Jan 2018)

Profpointy said:


> Dunno about that. You'd need bigger balls than me (metaphorically, given the thread) to hunt down a woolly mammoth on your own. Quite apart from dragging it home on your own in the unlikely event that you actually kill it rather than the other way round.
> Have you seen those Massai lads nicking a kill off a pride of lions - they don't try that alone either
> 
> Maybe ot now, though a grain of a point remains


Humans didn’t hunt mammoths. They would eat found dead ones.


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## Profpointy (22 Jan 2018)

Markymark said:


> Humans didn’t hunt mammoths. They would eat found dead ones.



Do you know that for a fact ? And anyway they hunted some pretty big ans fearsome beasts all the same. I'd not want to try and kill a cow on my own with a single spear, nor carry it home on my own.


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## Markymark (22 Jan 2018)

Profpointy said:


> Do you know that for a fact ? And anyway they hunted some pretty big ans fearsome beasts all the same. I'd not want to try and kill a cow on my own with a single spear, nor carry it home on my own.


The closest they got to animals that size was to scare them over a cliff etc.

Hunting was more likely to small easier to catch animals, fishing etc and usually solitary. However, as stated above, hunting was a very small part of the diet. It was mainly ceremonial, relatively rare. The vast majority of food was foraged.


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## BoldonLad (22 Jan 2018)

Markymark said:


> The closest they got to animals that size was to scare them over a cliff etc.
> 
> Hunting was more likely to small easier to catch animals, fishing etc and usually solitary. However, as stated above, hunting was a very small part of the diet. It was mainly ceremonial, relatively rare. The vast majority of food was foraged.



I think you are probably right @Markymark . Judging by the size of the pieces of animal skin, used to make Rachel Welch's bikini, in 2 million years BC, they were small animals.


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## Cuchilo (22 Jan 2018)

When they where drunk they used to pack hunt the donnakebabasorus .


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## FishFright (22 Jan 2018)

Men stuff , grrrr so macho ! It sure beats trying to sort out gender equality eh guys?


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## Ajay (22 Jan 2018)

Maybe a new thread is needed, 'What's stopping women hunting mammoths?'


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## Alan O (22 Jan 2018)

BoldonLad said:


> I think you are probably right @Markymark . Judging by the size of the pieces of animal skin, used to make Rachel Welch's bikini, in 2 million years BC, they were small animals.


Just wondering if it's relevant to this discussion that you can remember her bikini but not her name?


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## Profpointy (22 Jan 2018)

Ajay said:


> Maybe a new thread is needed, 'What's stopping women hunting mammoths?'



Sorry about the mammoth derail. I was semi seriously replying to a point which seemed to be suggesting an individual / group behaviour difference between the sexes - which I found unconvincing


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## MontyVeda (22 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5124980, member: 9609"]it is very difficult to know exactly who did what if we are to go back as far as Homo Erectus early Homo Sapiens. However I suspect if we look at our closest related species the Chimpanzee then we will probably get some insight into how we behaved. An interesting article here
http://www-bcf.usc.edu/~stanford/chimphunt.html[/QUOTE]
No link to those cave paintings you mentioned then?


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## BoldonLad (22 Jan 2018)

Alan O said:


> Just wondering if it's relevant to this discussion that you can remember her bikini but not her name?



Probably very relevant. 

But, in my defense, it is my spelling which is at fault, not my memory. 

I remember that beach scene very well, gave me a life long interest in History


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## Maenchi (22 Jan 2018)

When I was younger and my hair was long i'd tie it back when on the bike and amazingly I got wolf whistled at, frequently,along with close passes, jeering and the usual, keep peddling and get off and milk it type dumb comments, so if that was caused by my long hair, it's easy to understand it would be off putting to women to go cycling, I got fed up with it, of course I had the choice to tuck it away, plus the grief that can be handed out to any cyclist whatever the gender....and if i'd not cycled from a very young age I certainly wouldn't want to start as an adult. That was 30 years ago, now with short hair/balding style, and that i'm nearer 60 than 30 ..guess what; no hassle, well only the usual...like 'there is a cycle path for you, you know'... yeah sure !


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## MontyVeda (22 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5125027, member: 9609"]I believe the link I provided was more relevant and better proof - as for the cave stuff, there is a vast amount of studies and if I was to choose one you would simply retort with cherry-picked. So I will let you do your own research, but you could start off with Magura Cave Paintings[/QUOTE]
in other words... you thought early human activities and which gender did what was all well documented in prehistoric cave paintings, but on second thoughts, you're not so sure now, so have started talking about chimpanzees instead... gotcha.


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## Crackle (22 Jan 2018)

Mod note

I've been through this thread and removed the more personal and off-topic/not constructive remarks. As ever, we try to do this objectively and with reference to what's reported and the guidelines in place. If you think I've missed something got something wrong, report and I'll review it with the other mods.

Please try to keep some reference to the op, not be rude and crack on with the discussion but try not to head too far off topic, remember the op. If it goes too far off topic I will now remove posts to bring it back on.


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## Fab Foodie (22 Jan 2018)

jay clock said:


> I am in a tri -club which is now close to 50% female membership. And in the past year more female new joiners than men. And they all cycle. I see a lot of women out on the roads, although probably no more than 15% of the total.


That’s pretty-much what I see in Oxfordshire too. Tri has a large percentage of women compared to cycling only clubs.


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## Fab Foodie (22 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5124671, member: 10119"]It's great when you see those changes happening, isn't it? Can I ask, what do you think has led to the increase in women joining the club?[/QUOTE]
From my own anecdata, women come to Tri clubs primarily from running or swimming background rather than cycling, so cycling is the ‘newer’ discipline.


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## MontyVeda (22 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5125089, member: 9609"]I have given you examples of both and so far in return you have provided ? absolutely nothing apart from you might have watched a documentary but can't remember what it was called -[/QUOTE]I said up-thread that the doc could have been one of the Seven Ages of Britain docs (i'll hazard a guess it was episode one). It may have been Origins of Us.

The traditional view that males did all the hunting and gathering whilst females had babies and made soup isn't the current view. You can argue that the current view is just some PC nonsense but to me, it's entirely logical that those who are young and fit did the stuff that is suited to young fit adults whilst the older generations looked after the kids and made the soup.


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## ADarkDraconis (22 Jan 2018)

Still reading through (on page 8) but thought I would comment on something that is bothering me. My brother works at a LBS, the biggest and most popular one around with 3 or 4 branches in neighboring towns. They offer mechanics classes, starting with basic classes like how to change a tire, oil a chain, etc.; more advanced ones with wheel truing and bearings; even a class where you take apart the entire bike and put it back together! Each class is offered about once a month or so at each shop, everyone takes their own bikes and it looks really fun and useful!

I am mechanically inclined and have worked on my own car for 16 years, but with bikes I only know the basic stuff. I can fix flats, change and adjust brake pads, chain, etc. but I know nothing about cassette or derailleurs or bearings and such; and so thought I would take their class. The workshops all happened to be on a Tuesday or Wednesday for all their stores and I work til 9pm on those days  I then noticed that it listed a "women's only mechanics class" that was taking place on a Thursday and I am off on Thursdays! I thought that it must be for ladies who were afraid that men would make fun of them for their lack of mechanical experience or something and so would be more comfortable in an all women environment with a female instructor. I don't care who I work with or who teaches as long as they do a good job of instructing, but since it was the only one availble to me I thought I'd sign up.

I asked my brother the next day if there were any spots left in the women's class as I'd like to sign up and pay. He's like, "You don't want to sign up for that." I asked why not and he told me that it is just changing a flat tire and adjusting your bike for comfort (seat height, arranging your levers, etc.). That's it. I couldn't believe it! He told me to look at the description and with a second look I saw that indeed that was what it said, sigh. He said that it was the owner's wife's idea to get more women in the shops, she figured that they'd cycle more if they were comfortable on their ride and confident in changing their flat.

While I see her point of view and it was a nice thought, I am a bit ticked off because it is condescending. Yes, you may get more ladies in and teach them how to change a flat, but why not teach them more? Do you feel that we all don't want to learn? Do you think that women in general don't like working on bikes or being handy? There is so much more to bike maintenance that just changing a flat, why not introduce them to that wonderful world? I always feel more confident driving or riding because I know I can troubleshoot some mechanical problems I may encounter. What if she has a brake problem out on the road, or her chain jumps off for some reason? It seems like in my experiences men are teased for not being handy and women are teased if they are.


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## ADarkDraconis (22 Jan 2018)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> The differences are there to see from an early age; little boys tend to be more manic and boisterous and little girls more docile and affectionate. That's just the way nature makes them.



Would someone please tell my three-year-old that she is docile and sweet? Most of the time she tells us that she is a T-Rex or a shark, she plays with a variety of toys that she loves and is hyper and an energetic player (a normal kid!) I think little girls are often told to calm down or be more polite and ladylike, whereas 'boys will be boys' and it is vastly unfair. Kids are told how they are expected to behave differently when they should be allowed to like what they like and play how they please (safely, of course.) Her bike looks like Lightning McQueen from Disney's Cars because she loves him and her favorite color is also red, the man at the shop tried to insist that she'd like the pink one with ribbons and a basket on it better and she disagreed with him.


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## Fab Foodie (22 Jan 2018)

Crackle said:


> Mod note
> 
> I've been through this thread and removed the more personal and off-topic/not constructive remarks. As ever, we try to do this objectively and with reference to what's reported and the guidelines in place. If you think I've missed something got something wrong, report and I'll review it with the other mods.
> 
> Please try to keep some reference to the op, not be rude and crack on with the discussion but try not to head too far off topic, remember the op. If it goes too far off topic I will now remove posts to bring it back on.


Can we remove all the caveman nonsense and move it elsewhere? Another women related thread ruined by off-topic male tubthumping....


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## Jason (22 Jan 2018)

Interesting article and one I asked my wife to read, and give her view. She bought a new bike 2 years ago and total mileage is about 30 miles thus far.

" I don't get the time to sit after cycling, or between making the kids something to eat, and you are at work all day. The heavy traffic scares me, and putting the bike in the car is a faff"
I have committed to help her with cycling on weekends, when it's easier for me to take over house chores and food fixing. I do worry about her on the roads though, as it's a sit up and beg bike, and she's quite unstable still. This will hopefully improve as we plan to take all the bikes to places like Dorney lake , and have family cycling outings.


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## MontyVeda (22 Jan 2018)

Fab Foodie said:


> Can we remove all the caveman nonsense and move it elsewhere? Another women related thread ruined by off-topic male tubthumping....


it's all on topic when some men are claiming that women are too womanly to want to do anything strenuous such as cycling.


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## vickster (22 Jan 2018)

MontyVeda said:


> it's all just boll0cks when some men are claiming that women are too womanly to want to do anything strenuous such as cycling.



FTFY


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## jay clock (22 Jan 2018)

Cycleops said:


> Interesting report on the Beeb. About 50% fewer women than men cycle twice a week or more, according to transport charity Sustrans, and when it comes to cycling on the roads, the number drops again.
> 
> http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leicestershire-41737483


Can I just say that I am a friend of Maryam Amatullah mentioned in the article (we did this together at the Olympic opening ceremony in 2012 
View: https://youtu.be/4As0e4de-rI?t=11573
) and you could not meet a more lovely and inspirational woman committed to promoting cycling


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## MontyVeda (22 Jan 2018)

vickster said:


> FTFY


true... but it was boll0cks that needed addressing, although i wish i'd never bothered. 

There's loads of activities that seem to attract so many more men than women, and since cycling (especially utility) is such a niche activity, shouldn't we be asking_ What's stopping people from cycling?_


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## vickster (22 Jan 2018)

User46386 said:


> Just to ask has anyone on here ever seen a woman fixing her bike on the pavement like mending a puncture etc. I can honestly say that I have never seen one ever.


Why? Have you never done it?


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## BoldonLad (22 Jan 2018)

User46386 said:


> Just to ask has anyone on here ever seen a woman fixing her bike on the pavement like mending a puncture etc. I can honestly say that I have never seen one ever.



Yes, I have, on two different occasions. I also, once, loaned some spanners to a pair of cyclists (both women) staying on a campsite in France.


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## Alan O (22 Jan 2018)

User46386 said:


> Just to ask has anyone on here ever seen a woman fixing her bike on the pavement like mending a puncture etc. I can honestly say that I have never seen one ever.


Plenty of times - mostly my regular cycling friend from years ago, but I've seen other women doing it too.


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## derrick (22 Jan 2018)

User46386 said:


> Just to ask has anyone on here ever seen a woman fixing her bike on the pavement like mending a puncture etc. I can honestly say that I have never seen one ever.


All the women on our rides fix there own, will only help if they ask for help.


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## ADarkDraconis (22 Jan 2018)

User46386 said:


> Just to ask has anyone on here ever seen a woman fixing her bike on the pavement like mending a puncture etc. I can honestly say that I have never seen one ever.



I do. I have always been self reliant, have a pump and a spare tube/patch. What next, you have never seen a woman change a tire on a car before either?


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## derrick (22 Jan 2018)

ADarkDraconis said:


> I do. I have always been self reliant, have a pump and a spare tube/patch. What next, you have never seen a woman change a tire on a car before either? [/QUOTE





User46386 said:


> Change a car tyre? dont you have to have a special machine to get it off the rim? Do you mean change a wheel?
> No I've never seen a woman change a car wheel outside. I have seen them on their mobiles when the car has broken down.
> Theres absolutely no chance any of the women I know would change a car wheel, not a hope in hell.


Most guy's i know would call the AA,


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## Supersuperleeds (22 Jan 2018)

User46386 said:


> Change a car tyre? dont you have to have a special machine to get it off the rim? Do you mean change a wheel?
> No I've never seen a woman change a car wheel outside. I have seen them on their mobiles when the car has broken down.
> Theres absolutely no chance any of the women I know would change a car wheel, not a hope in hell.



If I offered to change the wheel on my sisters car she would probably lamp me with the wheel brace.


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## Inertia (22 Jan 2018)

derrick said:


> Most guy's i know would call the AA,


Same here. The ones that will, don't do it because they have an innate tyre changing gene though. They do it because they have been told, that's what they are meant to do.


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## derrick (22 Jan 2018)

User said:


> I thought a lot of new cars didn't have a spare wheel, so it would be a pointless exercise trying to change something that isn't there, I imagine this isn't a very constructive post.


Yes when do you ever see an old car on the road these days.


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## MontyVeda (22 Jan 2018)

User said:


> I have to be careful as I've been deemed as non constructive, and not making sense.
> but
> there seems to be a belief that women just don't want to do sport or strenuous activity but I feel some men as missing the obvious, its not that women don't want to, they have been discouraged from birth, from hundreds of years of male domineering, from governments, the media, society in general telling women, no demanding women not to participate in sports or strenuous activity, it was and still is drummed into women that their place is still in the home chained to the kitchen sink, they have been and still are being brainwashed in to believing the same old shite about what makes a woman, we are not as progressive as we believe ourselves to be as a number of posts in this thread clearly show.


I'll bet someone comes along and points out that washing clothes by hand, kneading dough by hand, scrubbing floors and many other things deemed 'traditional woman's work' are in fact, really quite strenuous activities.


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## Ming the Merciless (22 Jan 2018)

User said:


> I thought a lot of new cars didn't have a spare wheel, so it would be a pointless exercise trying to change something that isn't there, I imagine this isn't a very constructive post.



I specifically asked for a spare wheel for my current car. The previous car had a blowout and no gloopy stuff was going to fix the tyre by the time I pulled up. It was a b/h and no local tyre places. So was ages before got back on road again.


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## BoldonLad (22 Jan 2018)

User46386 said:


> Change a car tyre? dont you have to have a special machine to get it off the rim? Do you mean change a wheel?
> No I've never seen a woman change a car wheel outside. I have seen them on their mobiles when the car has broken down.
> Theres absolutely no chance any of the women I know would change a car wheel, not a hope in hell.



I have four daughters, three of whom drive.

When each of them passed their driving test, and acquired a car, I showed them:

- how to put fuel in
- how to check oil level
- how to top up oil
- how to check water level in radiator and screen wash
- how to top up water in radiator and screen was
- how to change a wheel

One of them was particularly keen, and asked to be shown how to change a bulb, which I did.

I am pleased to say they are all capable and self reliant women, but, I suspect, they often delegate some of the tasks to their partners.


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## ADarkDraconis (22 Jan 2018)

User said:


> I thought a lot of new cars didn't have a spare wheel, so it would be a pointless exercise trying to change something that isn't there, I imagine this isn't a very constructive post.


Why would you not want a reliable way to get home if you get a flat? That is just ridiculous! What if you are out in the middle of nowhere with no cell phone reception to call a tow? 

On a related note: My car is 7 years old and I do not consider that an 'older' car. Apparently car makers think that people who want brand new are inept and unable/have no desire to take care of themselves in a roadside emergency?


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## mjr (22 Jan 2018)

ADarkDraconis said:


> Why would you not want a reliable way to get home if you get a flat? That is just ridiculous! What if you are out in the middle of nowhere with no cell phone reception to call a tow?


You walk to somewhere with signal. We used to have to walk to somewhere with a phone...



> On a related note: My car is 7 years old and I do not consider that an 'older' car. Apparently car makers think that people who want brand new are inept and unable/have no desire to take care of themselves in a roadside emergency?


No, they just want you to buy their partner breakdown service so they keep getting some of your money.


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## Maenchi (22 Jan 2018)

User46386 said:


> Just to ask has anyone on here ever seen a woman fixing her bike on the pavement like mending a puncture etc. I can honestly say that I have never seen one ever.


yes.


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## ADarkDraconis (22 Jan 2018)

mjr said:


> You walk to somewhere with signal. We used to have to walk to somewhere with a phone...



...or you learn to use a jack and a lug wrench so you don't have to rely on someone bailing you out for something simple. When I go down to visit my family south of here you can drive for 20 minutes before you get reception, that would be a long walk (especially in snow or rain, or with a small child.) And you do not stop to ask someone for a hand or to use their phone, some of the farm folk down there would shoot you for even stepping on their property and then ask questions later.


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## mjr (22 Jan 2018)

ADarkDraconis said:


> ...or you learn to use a jack and a lug wrench so you don't have to rely on someone bailing you out for something simple


Well yes, if it's just a wheel change, but I can think of stuff you ain't going to fix.



> When I go down to visit my family south of here you can drive for 20 minutes before you get reception, that would be a long walk (especially in snow or rain, or with a small child.) And you do not stop to ask someone for a hand or to use their phone, some of the farm folk down there would shoot you for even stepping on their property and then ask questions later.


The USA, making the fens seem positively refined!


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## Cuchilo (22 Jan 2018)

ADarkDraconis said:


> ...or you learn to use a jack and a lug wrench so you don't have to rely on someone bailing you out for something simple When I go down to visit my family south of here you can drive for 20 minutes before you get reception, that would be a long walk (especially in snow or rain, or with a small child.) And you do not stop to ask someone for a hand or to use their phone, some of the farm folk down there would shoot you for even stepping on their property and then ask questions later.


Darn hillbillys !


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## Slick (22 Jan 2018)

Cuchilo said:


> Darn hillbillys !



Is this what were about?


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## ADarkDraconis (22 Jan 2018)

mjr said:


> Well yes, if it's just a wheel change, but I can think of stuff you ain't going to fix.
> 
> 
> The USA, making the fens seem positively refined!



Hence the "something simple" bit. There is not much I won't fix unless it's computerized, but you are right in that it is not all necessarily by the side of the road. However, I would rather not drag/carry a small child through the snow for an hour to call and be told it is a two-hour wait time for a tow truck when it is a *simple* solution to fix. It also teaches said small child the value in being able to do things for yourself (which not many people bother with these days), and you can be surprised at what you can do with a basic toolkit!. Do you pay someone to fix your flat bike tire for you?

Also it greatly depends on the part of the USA.


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## Slick (22 Jan 2018)

ADarkDraconis said:


> Hence the "something simple" bit. There is not much I won't fix unless it's computerized, but you are right in that it is not all necessarily by the side of the road. However, I would rather not drag/carry a small child through the snow for an hour to call and be told it is a two-hour wait time for a tow truck when it is a *simple* solution to fix. It also teaches said small child the value in being able to do things for yourself (which not many people bother with these days), and you can be surprised at what you can do with a basic toolkit!. Do you pay someone to fix your flat bike tire for you?
> 
> Also it greatly depends on the part of the USA.


Last time I was over there, the news was full of a story about a guy who drew up in a layby to fix a flat and was shot. Not sure of the details but it was somewhere near Mertle beach Florida.


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## ADarkDraconis (22 Jan 2018)

Slick said:


> Last time I was over there, the news was full of a story about a guy who drew up in a layby to fix a flat and was shot. Not sure of the details but it was somewhere near Mertle beach Florida.


Doesn't surprise me, people these days are crazy! And just because I am fussy even though I know probably no one cares Myrtle Beach is in South Carolina (about an 11 hour car drive south from me) and Florida is another state entirely about 3 or so hours south of that.


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## Slick (22 Jan 2018)

ADarkDraconis said:


> Doesn't surprise me, people these days are crazy! And just because I am fussy even though I know probably no one cares Myrtle Beach is in South Carolina (about an 11 hour car drive south from me) and Florida is another state entirely about 3 or so hours south of that.


My sister lives in Jacksonville but we met at Myrtle beach for a large family holiday. We flew into Orlando and drove probably a couple of hours south.

http://traveltips.usatoday.com/romantic-getaways-myrtle-beach-florida-62908.html


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## derrick (22 Jan 2018)

mjr said:


> Well yes, if it's just a wheel change, but I can think of stuff you ain't going to fix.


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## ADarkDraconis (22 Jan 2018)

Slick said:


> My sister lives in Jacksonville but we met at Myrtle beach for a large family holiday. We flew into Orlando and drove probably a couple of hours south.
> 
> http://traveltips.usatoday.com/romantic-getaways-myrtle-beach-florida-62908.html


The site's title says Florida, but the site descriptions, article, and weather say South Carolina  That's the internet for ya, lol! You probably drove north, as Florida is the southernmost state on that coast and past that you end up in Mexico or the ocean. We are getting a little off topic, but see how easy it is to get lost if you don't know the area and potentially get shot by hillbillies? That's what stops people cycling, haha!


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## Slick (22 Jan 2018)

ADarkDraconis said:


> The site's title says Florida, but the site descriptions, article, and weather say South Carolina  That's the internet for ya, lol! You probably drove north, as Florida is the southernmost state on that coast and past that you end up in Mexico or the ocean. We are getting a little off topic, but see how easy it is to get lost if you don't know the area and potentially get shot by hillbillies? That's what stops people cycling, haha!


Good point.


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## User10119 (23 Jan 2018)

Have we found any answers to the actual question yet? I've just got back from a 14 hour unpaid school trip accompanying our 50-strong choir to join about 6 thousand other children performing at the Manchester Arena so am playing catchup....


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## Andrew_P (23 Jan 2018)

When I first started cycling with my kids all Girls it took me a while to figure out what the tooting was all about, and the most recent and the most prolific was with my youngest 13 year old kid. She is fairly tall and curly blond hair out the back of her helmet but clearly young and clearly with her Dad I am guessing the tosser's in the cars and pavement are the same tossers who looked all my teenage daughters up and down in that "way" almost the minute they hit puberty whilst walking around a shopping centre or supermarket. 

I wish I could give some anecdotal evidence of admiring comments aimed at me the best I could do they were taking the piss and the worst was hurling empty cans out of the back window of an Astra. Alongside the (probably same blokes) who think they are funny making comments or flinging things. 

I had wondered if some of the targeting of Women on bikes is because it challenged the view of these so called men that all cyclist are self-gratification artists deserving abuse so instead confused they hurl sexual stuff, but then I am no phycologist 

My youngest was querying with me that she wanted to get involved in a team sport really enjoyed Basketball at her Junior School no Baskball at her secondary School but hates Netball as not much running and no tackling running and jumping. I have to say it was on the night after I had read this thread and it did make me think how strange Netball is. I did Google it and came across some what looked like Aussie Rules articles/YT Promotions of Netball promoting it as a contact sport but it didn't bare any resemblance to my memory of Netball nor how my Daughter explained it to me! The Wikipedia explanation smacked of Basketball was too "aggressive in the late 1800's when it was introduced so Netball was born for Women, seems strange that it is perpetuated to this day in the same format.


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## User10119 (23 Jan 2018)

I have quite a 'primary' perspective on school PE, where the gender divides are much less marked in terms of who does what - although some extra curricular clubs are male or female dominated, everyone does everything in lessons and actually at my son's school two of the strongest players on the footie team (the one that plays against other schools' "boys team") are girls. Everyone does netball, everyone does dodgeball, everyone does tag rugby.... My personal experience was that despite never having been remotely sporty - my dyspraxic tendencies and poor eyesight make any kind of ball games a fairly high-risk activity - I managed to represent my primary in several school teams because the school I attended was so tiny that it needed all the girls in the 'juniors' to make a side! At secondary, judging by the experience of the EldestCub, it seems a lot more traditional with the girls doing hockey/netball and the boys football/basketball and so on.

@Andrew_P - are there any extra-curricular clubs locally that would allow your daughter to access the sports that she prefers?


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## BoldonLad (23 Jan 2018)

Julia9054 said:


> You do realise that everyone is on a bell curve in terms of typical "feminine" and "masculine" qualities. If you feel that you can disentange nature from nurture, you must share your insights - I'm sure the scientific community would be interested to know.



I have followed this thread since the beginning, making my own (mostly light hearted comments along the way), but, I think I am right in saying that you are the only poster who has referred to the fact that Women (and/or Men) are not one single package of identical beings. We are all a little different. Therefore (IMHO) there are almost as many reasons why Women are less likely to cycle than Men, as there are Women.


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## Andrew_P (23 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5125755, member: 10119"]I have quite a 'primary' perspective on school PE, where the gender divides are much less marked in terms of who does what - although some extra curricular clubs are male or female dominated, everyone does everything in lessons and actually at my son's school two of the strongest players on the footie team (the one that plays against other schools' "boys team") are girls. Everyone does netball, everyone does dodgeball, everyone does tag rugby.... My personal experience was that despite never having been remotely sporty - my dyspraxic tendencies and poor eyesight make any kind of ball games a fairly high-risk activity - I managed to represent my primary in several school teams because the school I attended was so tiny that it needed all the girls in the 'juniors' to make a side! At secondary, judging by the experience of the EldestCub, it seems a lot more traditional with the girls doing hockey/netball and the boys football/basketball and so on.

@Andrew_P - are there any extra-curricular clubs locally that would allow your daughter to access the sports that she prefers?[/QUOTE]

Sorry quoted you but only the first paragraph is a direct reply, post ended up much longer than I anticipated..

She does do Gymnastics, the School runs after School Football which she quite enjoys. She has a real talent for anything athletic at 13 she could go to my work and back 30 mile round trip and I would barely have to make any allowance for her being with me which for 13 is pretty good. She is looking for local Women's Basketball clubs, but not many around. 

When I next speak to my eldest I will ask her about cycling she used to cycle to work through London and currently gets around Bath by bike and does a bit of Deliveroo she has never really mentioned harassment other than the normal Driver/Cyclist stuff but then I have never really asked the question. She treats the bike purely as transport.

Out of my 3 daughters 2 are keen on cycling the eldest is 21 this year. When she lived and worked in London her preference was to take as much as possible paths and avoid the roads as much as possible, my youngest 14 is fairly nervous on the roads partly due to news items, friends and family perception of danger and unfortunately experience. She is fine with me but not confident enough to go solo. There is a tendency from people to consider me taking my kids out on their bikes on main roads as dangerous and if I am entirely honest I had never really thought about it much but I am pretty sure this would not have been so strongly felt had they been boys. This seems to perpetuate itself in to peoples risk assessing when they get older and also seems to be weighted heavier towards females and "danger" both in their perception and reinforced by others should they even mention they are think of riding a bike on the road (are you mad?) which again is pretty strange but it does seem to stick. 

I would think a large part of lack of cycling by females is the infrastructure and maybe the perception of what a cyclist normally looks like. Weird Shorts, weird helmets, funny shoes, road bikes, flat out riding. Look at the picture of the Breeze ride video in that BBC article conformity to the stereo type of what a cyclist should look like thus perpetuating the myth! Compared to this, can you imagine the uproar if the BBC had featured images like this as examples of cycling?











When I was not cycling I had a perception based around the cyclists I normally saw an what a cyclist should look like. Looking back I think it was a bit of barrier to me, apart from the investment I wasn't sure at 46 I could get myself in to the clothing let alone go out in public to be ridiculed.

What I am driving at is unlike countries where Cycling is commonplace we don't get to see such a mixture of cyclists who use it for a means of transport wear normal clothes and take a leisurely plod up to the shops on a sit up normal bike. Its not seen as normal to see a female cycling in the UK anymore. Its is seen and referred to as a sport largely or men commuting in clothes that look like they should be in a race. Honestly I am not denouncing Lycra I wear it but I am pretty sure it is one of the barriers along side danger and infrastructure.

Perhaps in my naivety I never considered unwanted sexual harassment nor sexism by male cyclists, I am not even sure why they have broken out male cyclists per se in the sexism part to be honest if sexism is playing a part it is on the whole not just cyclists and honestly not just males at all. Trying telling your mother in law that you just rode in rush hour traffic with a your 13 year old daughter to see the reaction. Now whether this reaction would have been the same for a boy who knows, I have a feeling it may have been similar but not anywhere near as strongly put. 

So really you have two ism's joining together Sexism and Cyclism as a group male or female it is acceptable in the wider public to denounce, insult, moan or take the mickey out of cyclists, you just have to listen or read the comments when cycling is being debated. Then add on to that the sexism\harassment when a female is seen in that group and it appears this then makes sexism even more focused and almost allowed.

So to get more people, including women cycling needs to be seen as normal regardless of your bike or what you wear, good for you, and safe. I fear we have a long way to go to get to seeing streets in the UK like the above, the first step would be stopping this obsession with Helmets


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## airborneal (23 Jan 2018)

There's nothing stopping them, you could ask why don't more men do Zumba, why don't you see women kicking the ball in the park with tops for goalposts.
Maybe it's just not there thing so much in general.
Quote from web
"The reasons for this are not just specific to Zumba – men in general prefer to work out alone, while women make up the majority of most cardio classes."

I know my wife tends to to walking, fitness etc in groups where it also becomes a sociable thing


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## MontyVeda (23 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5125751, member: 10119"]*Have we found any answers to the actual question yet? *I've just got back from a 14 hour unpaid school trip accompanying our 50-strong choir to join about 6 thousand other children performing at the Manchester Arena so am playing catchup....[/QUOTE]
We've ruled out evolution.


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## FishFright (23 Jan 2018)

I've been asking the women in my life about why more them don't cycle. In no particular order

1. They don't want to, not interested.
2. Perceived to be too expensive due to the silly money I spend
3. Prefer to exercise with the friends inside ,gym etc
4. Current/ex partner who is a cyclist with a really nice bike(s) but bought them a BSO which they hated so put them off.
5. Men going on about how dangerous the roads are on which they battle traffic and each other (too macho)

Do the same I'd be interested if these were common reasons. And I mean do it and not post about what you think their answers would be instead.


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## Fab Foodie (23 Jan 2018)

jefmcg said:


> You've clearly never been to a spin class.
> 
> View attachment 392615




Glad that after discussing Neanderthal man and changing wheels on cars, we are back on topic - which surely is interesting enough?

Good point about Spinning classes which have a very high participation by women, whether there is any translation into to cycling on the road I don't know. My own limited experience is that Spinning is harder than cycling! My thinking is that Spinning is seen as a a gym exercise rather than cycling and thus there is a gym-class 'mindset'. It would be interesting to survey Spinners and see how many cycle or not. Another factor is time. Spinning gives a bigger bang for yer buck in 1 hour than cycling and no kit to look after.

A couple of other thoughts/anecdata:
Mrs FF cycled, but only came on Freewheeling rides if there were other 'friends' going along (I was ride leader and I didn't count apparently), I think part of this was because she knew she would be able to cycle the same speed as them.... even though we always rode with a team of Tail End Charlies, nobody got left alone and we tried to ride to the pace of the slowest. There is a self-confidence/shyness issue here.
Furthermore I used to get castigated by Mrs FF for cycling 3 or 4 hours on a Sunday morning - my only exercise (didn't help that I was often away during the week), however she would do at least the same or more hours of exercise but split over several evenings in 1 hour slots, (again usually with a mate). This clearly fitted better with her and her mates routines than 3 or four hours on a Sunday or the longer time required for the Social club run on a Thursday evening.
Other factors why she might prefer gym were - no kit hassles, no weather issues.
In her 20s, MrsFF cycled to work in South London, a far more hazardous period (mid 80s) to be on the road than now....


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## airborneal (23 Jan 2018)

User13710 said:


> Do you think cycling and zumba is a reasonable comparison? Perhaps there are stronger reasons for trying to get more women cycling than for trying to get men to do zumba.



I'm not necessarily comparing Zumba to cycling just saying maybe Women and men prefer different activities. We can ask that question to most things in life, generally we prefer different genre of films. You can go on and on.

I think Fishfright has summed it up, they probably don't want to. The same as men don't want to do certain things.


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## Blue Hills (23 Jan 2018)

Er nowhere did airborne say that women shouldn't have mortgages.

Or any of the other stuff.

A clear attempt to thread divert.

Will follow with a certain interest posts on women and cycling.


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## mjr (23 Jan 2018)

FishFright said:


> I've been asking the women in my life about why more them don't cycle. In no particular order


Sorry to ask afterwards, but could you estimate the relative frequency of those reasons?


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## MontyVeda (23 Jan 2018)

The male/female split in Denmark is 47% and 53% (source) ...so there's a fair few more women cycling over there than here.

Commuter/utility cycling is very normal over there, whilst over here it's not. Maybe over here, we (the general population) perceive cycling as a sport rather than transport, and with so many alternative sport and exercise activities to choose from, cycling is not one of the more attractive or accessible.


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## Markymark (23 Jan 2018)

MontyVeda said:


> The male/female split in Denmark is 47% and 53% (source) ...so there's fair few more women cycling over there than here.
> 
> Commuter/utility cycling is very normal over there, whilst over here it's not. Maybe over here, we (the general population) perceive cycling as a sport rather than transport, and with so many alternative sport and exercise activities to choose from, cycling is not one of the more attractive or accessible.


Yet I chose cycling as I can commute doing it I didn't have to find time to do it. Pretty much every other sport or exercise I'd have had to fit it in.


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## MontyVeda (23 Jan 2018)

Markymark said:


> Yet I chose cycling as I can commute doing it I didn't have to find time to do it. Pretty much every other sport or exercise I'd have had to fit it in.


Same here... i simply don't do sport. 

However i feel that cycling in the UK is generally perceived as sport rather than transport, otherwise so many conversations i have about cycling wouldn't become a willy waving contest about how far or how fast i go. Plus, when i'm out and about riding the country lanes in my casual clothes on my old MTB, I'm in a definite minority amongst the all other cyclists i see.


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## Markymark (23 Jan 2018)

MontyVeda said:


> Same here... i simply don't do sport.
> 
> However i feel that cycling in the UK is generally perceived as sport rather than transport, otherwise so many conversations i have about cycling wouldn't become a willy waving contest about how far or how fast i go. Plus, when i'm out and about riding the country lanes in my casual clothes on my old MTB, I'm in a definite minority amongst the all other cyclists i see.


In London for a huge number it's a commute that many ride as a sport. I don't see a 50:50 split of male female but it's not far off. What I do see though is a disproportionate number of white people compared to London's diversity, but that's a whole other thread ready get locked!!


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## FishFright (23 Jan 2018)

mjr said:


> Sorry to ask afterwards, but could you estimate the relative frequency of those reasons?



I didn't set a multiple choice exam only collected some opinions. Having said that I'd say uninterested was the main reason given with being put off by men for various reasons a close second. For those women who exercise regularly i picked up that doing whatever they did with a majority other women as opposed to the oddment or partner in a largely male group.

The main thing I got on a personal level was it was nice for them to be asked to provide their own answers and not pick their favourites from a list made by men. One of my friends who rides much more often than me is angered by how men ask her where her partner is when the ride alongside .

A quick read though this , and many similar threads, reveals a common theme of men discussing the issues amongst themselves instead of asking the people affected.

As an aside a very close friend of my is post transition and she could provide an interesting dual perspective but we've not had that conversation yet.


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## jay clock (23 Jan 2018)

I am cycling across America shortly with a man and a woman. She can change her own sodding tyres and I will certainly rope her in to help me too! And the bloke is 72 this year! And I have got Parkinsons....


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## Markymark (23 Jan 2018)

User said:


> You do need to be careful here. One of the things that you need to consider is the time of day that you are observing. There is a disproportionate number of black people doing cleaning jobs at unsocial hours who may be riding their bikes at times you don't see.


Yet when I get the tube at the same sort of times doing a similar journey the mix is much more what is expect in London.


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## mjr (23 Jan 2018)

FishFright said:


> One of my friends who rides much more often than me is angered by how men ask her where her partner is when the ride alongside .
> 
> A quick read though this , and many similar threads, reveals a common theme of men discussing the issues amongst themselves instead of asking the people affected.


Yes, that's part of what made your earlier post interesting.

I'm not understanding the anger though. That happens to me on group rides when my wife isn't there, as she usually rides with them too. Did she mean men who don't know her partner ask after him? That'd be odd and annoying and often creepy.


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## Julia9054 (23 Jan 2018)

FishFright said:


> I've been asking the women in my life about why more them don't cycle. In no particular order
> 
> 1. They don't want to, not interested.
> 2. Perceived to be too expensive due to the silly money I spend
> ...


Ask the men in your life who don't cycle the same question. It would be interesting to know if their answers are different.


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## FishFright (23 Jan 2018)

Julia9054 said:


> Ask the men in your life who don't cycle the same question. It would be interesting to know if their answers are different.



Oh they can't wait to tell me that. Note I could be equally bad at pestering them to ride !


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## User10119 (23 Jan 2018)

FishFright said:


> One of my friends who rides much more often than me is angered by how men ask her where her partner is when the ride alongside .



Daft Q - do you know if she meant other men on the same organised ride as her, or other men out for a ride who she encounters on her separate ride?


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## FishFright (23 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5126558, member: 10119"]Daft Q - do you know if she meant other men on the same organised ride as her, or other men out for a ride who she encounters on her separate ride?[/QUOTE]

Often enough to be boring I expect


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## User10119 (23 Jan 2018)

FishFright said:


> Often enough to be boring I expect


I don't understand that answer... But maybe I didn't ask the right question (last night's Arena adventure followed by not enough sleep, and that sleep not good sleep, then a bonkers busy day is paying me back with a pre-migraine which means ALL tEH wORdZ stOP worKiNg.)


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## theclaud (23 Jan 2018)

FishFright said:


> One of my friends who rides much more often than me is angered by how men ask her where her partner is when the ride alongside


Years of enduring this kind of question oblige me to conclude, with great sadness, that most people (and not just men) find it difficult, and even threatening, when they cannot 'account for' a woman in terms of her relationship to a man.


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## swansonj (23 Jan 2018)

theclaud said:


> Years of enduring this kind of question oblige me to conclude, with great sadness, that most people (and not just men) find it difficult, and even threatening, when they cannot 'account for' a woman in terms of her relationship to a man.


"I now pronounce you man and wife"

'Tis deeply engrained.


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## Andrew_P (23 Jan 2018)

I am a little ashamed to say having read on here some experiences whilst on a bike and Googled it harassment is far more widespread than I thought although the tooting and catcalls that I have experienced with my daughter on the bike but not whilst walking probably should have told me different.... I hope the not getting it whilst walking is as much to do with it being clear how old they are and less to do with the mode of transport but not completely sure of that, as it doesn't seem to stop the letches on foot doing it in a non verbal way.

On a side note I came across 101 self-gratification artists on my Google search and not the ones you plant (oops thought it was Daffodils!), only the Google map still exists originally a blog by a Guardian reporter about harassment on a bike. I came across quite sad story quoting the blog from a ex-feminist (whatever that may mean her words) that seemed to go quiet after she was taken to court for harassing activists across a wide spectrum when I searched I came across Twitter posts saying she was missing from 2015 and couldn't find any confirmation she was ever found :-(


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## airborneal (24 Jan 2018)

User13710 said:


> The trouble with that argument is that it has been used against women whenever they are underrepresented in almost any sphere of life. Perhaps they just don't want to be executives, stand for parliament, live alone, vote, wear trousers, run marathons, get mortgages in their own name, on and on and on. It's just fobbing us off, and it's a bit lame.



What argument ! I think your trying to turn this into something it isn't.


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## kingrollo (24 Jan 2018)

I've just started going to spin classes - 70% women - can we start a thread of whats stopping men going to spin classes ? - 
Yoga Im very often the only guy - its just how it is -
in the club I am in a female is probably the best cyclist in the group i ride with

I don't get why its an issue - if you are female and want to ride a bike, just do it - if theere aren't many females its probably that they choose to do something else or just might not like cycling.


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## Inertia (24 Jan 2018)

kingrollo said:


> I've just started going to spin classes - 70% women - can we start a thread of whats stopping men going to spin classes ? -
> Yoga Im very often the only guy - its just how it is -
> in the club I am in a female is probably the best cyclist in the group i ride with
> 
> *I don't get why its an issue* - if you are female and want to ride a bike, just do it - if theere aren't many females its probably that they choose to do something else or just might not like cycling.


Isn't that the point of the thread?, to find out why more woman don't cycle. It could be that some women want to cycle but for some reason, won't or can't 'just do it'.


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## kingrollo (24 Jan 2018)

Inertia said:


> Isn't that the point of the thread?, to find out why more woman don't cycle. It could be that some women want to cycle but for some reason, won't or can't 'just do it'.


OK fair point. 
As far as I am aware there are no barriers to women cycling. I can't think of any reason why women can't cycle - the big detriments, the weather, the effort, the risks are pretty equal for both sexes I would have thought.


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## Inertia (24 Jan 2018)

kingrollo said:


> OK fair point.
> As far as I am aware there are no barriers to women cycling. I can't think of any reason why women can't cycle - the big detriments, the weather, the effort, the risks are pretty equal for both sexes I would have thought.


Those are shared but there are other detriments, that men suffer less of, that have been highlighted in this thread.


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## MontyVeda (24 Jan 2018)

kingrollo said:


> OK fair point.
> As far as I am aware there are no barriers to women cycling. I can't think of any reason why women can't cycle - the big detriments, the weather, the effort, the risks are pretty equal for both sexes I would have thought.


You haven't read the thread have you.


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## Ajay (24 Jan 2018)

User3094 said:


> Perhaps another question, in my local cycling club only 24% are female, why?


My partner gave up riding with our club because she just got sick of the constant sexist comments, of all kinds, both deliberate and out of ignorance. 
I'm far from perfect, but I'm often shocked by how difficult many men find it to talk to women without causing offence.
Although more men than women cycle, more men don't cycle than do, I wonder how many men would say that it was the actions and attitudes of women that put them off cycling?


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## Alan O (24 Jan 2018)

Ajay said:


> I'm far from perfect, but I'm often shocked by how difficult many men find it to talk to women without causing offence.


Yes, I have to say I find that totally incomprehensible. Some of the things I hear some men say, casually in everyday conversation and apparently without thinking about it, often make me cringe. I don't understand how some men can get through life without constantly being punched.

I've heard people saying "It's just lads' talk" as if that justifies it. But it isn't, certainly not in any of the social circles I've been in during my life, and it doesn't.

I come across people who seem to see the world as being made up of "men" and "women" rather than just "people", and maybe that's part of it. I often hear of men who "are not good at talking to women", but I don't get why that should be different to just "talking to people".

And maybe it's reinforced by needing to see things in black and white when the real beauty of the world lies in its subtle multitude of greys?

A lot of folk do appear believe the generalizations that people incorrectly extract from the various minor male/female bell-curve variations. You know the things like "Men are better at X, women are better at Y" stuff? I remember reading a rebuttal of such nonsense somewhere that went along the lines of "Do you realize that graph actually shows that 40% of men are more 'feminine' on that measure than the average woman?"

I've always wanted to be able to study psychology, and there's definitely a subset of male psychology that I find completely alien.


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## nickyboy (24 Jan 2018)

User13710 said:


> Hint: there's more than one meaning of the word 'argument'.
> 
> 
> You don't get why it's an issue. We wonder why it is that more of us are not choosing to cycle, and whether there are things putting those women off that could be addressed. You are quite welcome to discuss why men don't go to spin classes (although I believe they do in huge numbers) but not here please, as this is a discussion about women and cycling.



Perhaps a decent starting point might be the question of why spin classes are predominantly female (so I'm led to believe, I've never been to one) whereas outdoor cycling is predominantly male. The exercise is basically the same so why do women, in general, seem to prefer an indoor spin class? 

There are plenty of hints and clues in this thread but, being a bloke, I should leave it to the women to shed some light


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## Julia9054 (24 Jan 2018)

nickyboy said:


> Perhaps a decent starting point might be the question of why spin classes are predominantly female (so I'm led to believe, I've never been to one) whereas outdoor cycling is predominantly male. The exercise is basically the same so why do women, in general, seem to prefer an indoor spin class?
> 
> There are plenty of hints and clues in this thread but, being a bloke, I should leave it to the women to shed some light


We are the wrong women to shed light. We cycle. You need to ask women who go to spin classes and who don't cycle outdoors.


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## nickyboy (24 Jan 2018)

Julia9054 said:


> We are the wrong women to shed light. We cycle. You need to ask women who go to spin classes and who don't cycle outdoors.



Well, the worst people to comment on why would be blokes that cycle outdoors (me and most people populating this thread). The best would be women who spin but they aren't here. Women who cycle outdoors are probably best able on this thread to provide insight


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## User10119 (24 Jan 2018)

kingrollo said:


> OK fair point.
> As far as I am aware there are no barriers to women cycling. I can't think of any reason why women can't cycle - the big detriments, the weather, the effort, the risks are pretty equal for both sexes I would have thought.



[QUOTE 5123968, member: 10119"]As to actual reasons why fewer women cycle than men - I reckon there's loads of contributory factors. It is quite important to distinguish between reasons that an individual of any gender does or doesn't choose to ride a bike for sport/leisure/utility etc and the the reasons that groups of people may experience barriers to participation. A few starters, for ten...

we socialise girls out of, and boys into, being competitive from a fairly early age
we encourage risk-taking behaviours much more in our sons than we do in our daughters

boys are rewarded for being brave and strong and tough and girls for being pretty and well-behaved - so of course teenage girls tend to become incredibly self-conscious about sportswear and sweat and messed up hair
Women typically have
less disposable income
less available leisure time
and more caring responsibilities than men

[/QUOTE]


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## Julia9054 (24 Jan 2018)

nickyboy said:


> Well, the worst people to comment on why would be blokes that cycle outdoors (me and most people populating this thread). The best would be women who spin but they aren't here. Women who cycle outdoors are probably best able on this thread to provide insight


Several of us have described the sorts of things that are specific to being women that annoy us when cycling and Pale Rider described his observations within his club which show that fewer women discourage women from participating in itself. Only a proper study will show what the real barriers are and the "women be like this, men be like that" comments from some contributors here are, at best, unhelpful


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## User10119 (24 Jan 2018)

Alan O said:


> I come across people who seem to see the world as being made up of "men" and "women" rather than just "people", and maybe that's part of it. I often hear of men who "are not good at talking to women", but I don't get why that should be different to just "talking to people".
> 
> And maybe it's reinforced by needing to see things in black and white when the real beauty of the world lies in its subtle multitude of greys?



While I mostly agree with much of what you say - there's something niggling in this bit that I can't quite find the words to explain so I'm kind of quoting this and trying anyway in the hope that someone else will know what I mean and be able to do a better job. There's an issue with saying everyone is 'just people' when we have a societly structured to advantage/disadvantage on the basis of gender. It's analogous to the problem with the idea of countering racism by 'not seeing colour' when actually that 'colourblindness' denies the voice and identities and cultures and lived experiences of black people.


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## Alan O (24 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5127577, member: 10119"]While I mostly agree with much of what you say - there's something niggling in this bit that I can't quite find the words to explain so I'm kind of quoting this and trying anyway in the hope that someone else will know what I mean and be able to do a better job. There's an issue with saying everyone is 'just people' when we have a societly structured to advantage/disadvantage on the basis of gender. It's analogous to the problem with the idea of countering racism by 'not seeing colour' when actually that 'colourblindness' denies the voice and identities and cultures and lived experiences of black people.[/QUOTE]
Yep, I get what you mean. "Colourblindness" and "genderblindness" are what would have prevented racism and sexism in the first place, and I think they're the right way to approach most new situations - but they're clearly not the solution to current racism and sexism. The "just people" thing would be an ideal outcome from a fair society.

I recall people pondering, when Barack Obama was elected, whether America had finally put racism behind it. Someone (I can't remember who) suggested that the need to ask that question in itself meant the answer was no - should America ever make it to a post-racism state, nobody would think to ask the question.


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## derrick (24 Jan 2018)

My wife rides on the road, but she goes to spinning classes twice a week, the girls she spins with do not ride on the road, they are just not interested in cycling, simple.


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## Markymark (24 Jan 2018)

Same way when I used to go to the gym (before they kicked me out for being too good) and I often used the rowing machine yet had/have no interest in rowing. Simple means of exercising, nothing more.


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## Inertia (25 Jan 2018)

derrick said:


> My wife rides on the road, but she goes to spinning classes twice a week, the girls she spins with do not ride on the road, they are just not interested in cycling, simple.


I get that that's is enough for you but there will be a reason why they don't cycle. You were told they they are just not interested and (I assume) didn't question why.



Markymark said:


> Same way when I used to go to the gym (before they kicked me out for being too good) and I often used the rowing machine yet had/have no interest in rowing. Simple means of exercising, nothing more.


Is there is a imbalance here though, lots of men cycle on roads and lots of women cycle in spin classes, apparently.


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## Markymark (25 Jan 2018)

Inertia said:


> I get that that's is enough for you but there will be a reason why they don't cycle. You were told they they are just not interested and (I assume) didn't question why.
> 
> 
> Is there is a imbalance here though, lots of men cycle on roads and lots of women cycle in spin classes, apparently.


I have no idea. I also have no idea of the ratios of men/women using rowing machines and men/women rowing. All I can say form a sample of one is that I have no interest in rowing yet I used to like using the rowing machine for the fitness.


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## Inertia (25 Jan 2018)

Markymark said:


> I have no idea. I also have no idea of the ratios of men/women using rowing machines and men/women rowing. All I can say form a sample of one is that I have no interest in rowing yet I used to like using the rowing machine for the fitness.


I'm sure there are people that feel the same way about cycling. I'm not sure it tells us too much about why in cycling, more women feel that way than men.


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## Maenchi (25 Jan 2018)

Before this thread i'd never heard of 'spinning classes' ..


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## derrick (25 Jan 2018)

Inertia said:


> I get that that's is enough for you but there will be a reason why they don't cycle. You were told they they are just not interested and (I assume) didn't question it .


I see no reason to question it, it's there decision. people will ride if they want too, you can't force women to ride.
No different to me not wanting to climb mountains. i don't want to.


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## Inertia (25 Jan 2018)

derrick said:


> I see no reason to question it, it's there decision. people will ride if they want too, you can't force women to ride.
> No different to me not wanting to climb mountains. i don't want to.


You don't see a reason to question why there is such an imbalance?


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## derrick (25 Jan 2018)

Inertia said:


> You don't see a reason to question why there is such an imbalance?


No.


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## derrick (25 Jan 2018)

User13710 said:


> The idea that the only reason why more women don't cycle must be because they don't want to does demonstrate a startling lack of imagination, but it is interesting that people who hold that view seem to feel the need to say it over and over again. Almost as if they would prefer it if the subject didn't get discussed at all.


You would prefer we forced them to ride
People will ride when they feel they want to, as things change more people may ride, i don't own a crystal ball so can't tell you that for sure.


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## Inertia (25 Jan 2018)

derrick said:


> No.


I guess that would be easier, not to care. One of the reason given was fear of sexual harrassment. I think thats worthy of our attention.


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## derrick (25 Jan 2018)

Inertia said:


> I guess that would be easier, not to care. One of the reason given was fear of sexual harrassment. I think thats worthy of our attention.


It's not a case of not caring, as said before as things change people may change, you need to talk to women who don't cycle. not people on here who do ride. I encourage a lot of people to ride women and men, if you knew me you would understand me better, Being a ride leader i see a lot of people come and go. last year we had more woman join our club than men, and most have stayed with the club, different clubs do different things, so some will stay some will go, i always talk to new riders after a ride, if the ride does not suit them, i point them in the direction of a club that might.


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## vickster (25 Jan 2018)

Riding a bike isn't only about club riding - that's a teeny tiny subset of cycling/cyclists. Most of the women on here don't ride with clubs (afaik), we ride to get from A-B, utility riding, commuting, for fitness, recreation and so on. Getting more women cycling doesn't simply mean to get them riding with clubs on a Sunday morning, but out and about day in day out, fitting it around work, family, other hobbies and activities

Personally, I can't think of anything of less interest to me than riding with a club, that level of rigour, having to follow others etc doesn't float my boat at all and I've never been one for any sort of group sport/activity (including spin classes)


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## Inertia (25 Jan 2018)

derrick said:


> It's not a case of not caring, as said before as things change people may change, you need to talk to women who don't cycle. not people on here who do ride. I encourage a lot of people to ride women and men, if you knew me you would understand me better, Being a ride leader i see a lot of people come and go. last year we had more woman join our club than men, and most have stayed with the club, different clubs do different things, so some will stay some will go, i always talk to new riders after a ride, if the ride does not suit them, i point them in the direction of a club that might.


The reason I said it seemed like you didn't care was because you said you saw no reason to question why there was an imbalance. 

Of course they may just not fancy it, but that could be apply to both sexes. Why should being a woman mean you are less likely to cycle? When there is a numerical imbalance like this, then you could draw the conclusion that it may be the related. If you reach that conclusion why wouldn't we question why that means you are less likely to fancy cycling?

They may well want to do it but be put off for a reason that we may actually be able to do something about.

As those people aren't who don't ride probably aren't here we can't question them, but we can ask people who do ride, or look at the evidence. They may well be aware of those obstacles or just put up with them. Who knows, we may even have some ideas ourselves. It may even make us think about our own behaviour and attitudes.


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## deptfordmarmoset (25 Jan 2018)

I hope this doesn't come across as a thread diversion but, while searching for a reasonably recent Transport for London analysis of people's reasons for not cycling, I first came across this one. http://content.tfl.gov.uk/analysis-of-cycling-potential-2016.pdf and found it informative.

Looking at the ages of _potential_ cycling journeys there are, of course, gender differences but it might be more fruitful if we first posed the question as ''What's stopping *people* cycling?'' and looking at the original question as a secondary, more focused, question. The aim of TfL's report would seem to be turning potential cycling trips into actual cycling trips and much of their policy seems to be aimed at normalising cycling. It may well be that the proportion of women cycling is higher in London than elsewhere in the country. If this really is the case, then TfL are actually making progress. It strikes me that if cycling becomes a far more normal activity, overall road conduct will change for the better _vis-à-vis _awareness of bikes (indeed, this seems to be - imperfectly but noticeably - the case in London). And there are an enormous number of missed bike rides affecting both genders. 

If you make cycling safer (and impressions of cycling safety) and more everyday practical, I'd be very surprised if the percentage difference did not decrease as the overall numbers increase.


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## Glow worm (25 Jan 2018)

derrick said:


> *I encourage a lot of people to ride women and men,* if you knew me you would understand me better, Being a ride leader i see a lot of people


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## derrick (25 Jan 2018)

Inertia said:


> They may well want to do it but be put off for a reason that we may actually be able to do something about..



When you can control the idiot drivers out there, or the government starts taking cycling seriously. we might see a change. 
There are many walks in life where there may be more of one gender or another, Do you really want a 50/50 split in everything, it ain't going to happen.
I would love to see everyone on a bike, again it will never happen, just except people will do what they are comfortable doing.


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## vickster (25 Jan 2018)

derrick said:


> W....the government starts taking cycling seriously....


How? What does that mean?


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## Inertia (25 Jan 2018)

derrick said:


> When you can control the idiot drivers out there, or the government starts taking cycling seriously. we might see a change.
> There are many walks in life where there may be more of one gender or another, Do you really want a 50/50 split in everything, it ain't going to happen.
> I would love to see everyone on a bike, again it will never happen, just except people will do what they are comfortable doing.


Of course there won't be 50/50, no-one has said that. I would want to be sure that they are not prejudiced against just because they are a woman.


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## derrick (25 Jan 2018)

vickster said:


> How? What does that mean?



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...angerous-careless-driving-jesse-a7957996.html


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## vickster (25 Jan 2018)

derrick said:


> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...angerous-careless-driving-jesse-a7957996.html


I still don't follow? Surely it's about making cycling safer and more accessible for all. 
I have no issue with cyclists who kill or hurt others due to their dangerous actions should be punished...as should drivers


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## derrick (25 Jan 2018)

vickster said:


> I still don't follow? Surely it's about making cycling safer and more accessible for all.
> I have no issue with cyclists who kill or hurt others due to their dangerous actions should be punished...as should drivers


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## deptfordmarmoset (25 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5128394, member: 45"]Apologies but I've not read 23 pages.

Shouldn't the question be what are the reasons that women don't cycle which are different to the reasons that men don't cycle? That should focus things a bit more.

Wrt commuting, I know one or two women who do cycle for leisure but don't commute because of the time it would take them at work to sort their hair, makeup etc out.[/QUOTE]
I don't know whether you're indirectly addressing my post from earlier today but my approach to rephrasing the question started with a general uptake basis rather than a specific gender uptake basis, reasoning that there's a fair chance that more people cycling will mean more women cycling as well. If that isn't the case and women get left out of the increased cycling activity, then there clearly is an urgent need to focus specifically on the case for women. But my impression is that the opposite is likely to occur: women will represent a higher proportion than they presently do.


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## Fab Foodie (25 Jan 2018)

Glow worm said:


>


Well spotted!


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## deptfordmarmoset (25 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5128410, member: 45"]I wasn't, but your reply is relevant so thanks.

I'm interested in the specific women-only reasons, because as you suggest addressing the unisex reasons will bring an increase overall.[/QUOTE]
I suppose my hypothesis is that fewer obstacles to cycling for all will lead to an increase in the proportion of women cycling. Why? Because it normalises cycling... I think that what may appear to be ''specific women-only'' reasons may also be found to apply to all.


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## vickster (25 Jan 2018)

derrick said:


>


Nope still none the wiser on your POV. Maybe you posted the wrong link. Forget it


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## Lavender Rose (25 Jan 2018)

I work in a leisure centre and I think women prefer fast paced spin classes for the fitness aspect rather than enjoying fresh air etc. I much prefer cycling outside, spin classes are my winter alternative when I don't fancy falling off my bike on icy roads! x


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## PK99 (25 Jan 2018)

Charlotte Alice Button said:


> I work in a leisure centre and I think women prefer fast paced spin classes for the fitness aspect rather than enjoying fresh air etc. I much prefer cycling outside, spin classes are my winter alternative when I don't fancy falling off my bike on icy roads! x



At the Nuffield gym I use, almost all classes (spin and other) are predominantly female, machine use is more by women then men and free weights users are predominantly male.

There are several Watt bikes, it is rare to see women using these.


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## MontyVeda (25 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5128310, member: 9609"]we were at friends yesterday and she is a big gym goer / fitness fanatic and apparently does a lot of spinning, I asked why she doesn't get a proper bike and the reply was she and a friend had tried it, got the bikes the gear the lot, but just thought it was too dangerous, cars and lorries going to fast and too close. She does plenty jogging through parks etc so obviously not feared in being out there - So I would reckon she doesnt cycle as the roads are too dangerous and the only connection to men is that they are probably the biggest culprits with fast aggressive sort of driving.

without suggesting women can't be as brave as men, they certainly can be - In general women don't seem to take the risks men are willing to take ? *probably something to do with our slightly different psychological characteristics, testosterone levels ?*[/QUOTE]
That wouldn't explain why slightly more women than men cycle in Denmark though.


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## User10119 (25 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5128310, member: 9609"]without suggesting women can't be as brave as men, they certainly can be - In general women don't seem to take the risks men are willing to take ? probably something to do with our slightly different psychological characteristics, testosterone levels ?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE 5123968, member: 10119"]A few starters, for ten...

we socialise girls out of, and boys into, being competitive from a fairly early age
we encourage risk-taking behaviours much more in our sons than we do in our daughters

boys are rewarded for being brave and strong and tough and girls for being pretty and well-behaved - so of course teenage girls tend to become incredibly self-conscious about sportswear and sweat and messed up hair
[/QUOTE]


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## User10119 (25 Jan 2018)

PK99 said:


> At the Nuffield gym I use, almost all classes (spin and other) are predominantly female, machine use is more by women then men and free weights users are predominantly male.
> 
> There are several Watt bikes, it is rare to see women using these.



I seem to remember from my gym bunny days (stop laughing at the back there - when we had an accessible and affordable council-run leisure centre I was there doing some form of on-purpose exercise 6 days a week - sometimes doing different things two or even three times a day) there was a generalised trend of more women using mostly cardio/some resistance machines and more men doing free weights. My trainer commented that they often struggled to get women to use free weights* or do much resistance work in their routines because they were concerned about "bulking up". We (societal level, not necessarily individual) generally hold men and women to different (unrealistic) standards of beauty; men are 'supposed' to build muscle and be strong and all that, women 'should' be slim (but definitely not so thin as to lose their boobs) and toned but aren't 'allowed' bulging biceps etc. I don't find it very surprising that gender tends to affect the forms of deliberate exercise-for-fitness-health-and-body-image that people choose.

But surely, as others have said, cycling is about much more than exercise?


*since I didn't give a monkeys about getting 'too muscley' this was in the context of her being well chuffed that I had overcome my other unrelated anxieties about the free weights area and very much made it my own, as well as making extensive use of the resistance machines. I discovered weights are fun, that I loved having really powerful biceps and triceps and that a 5annasqueak foot ginger bird leg pressing multiple sets in excess of 150kg can make some of the mirror staring adonis types look at you in a slightly different light


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## vickster (25 Jan 2018)

I don't use the freeweights/weights area at my gym as it smells rather rancidly of sweaty blokes (which is my general experience of those areas of gyms)  For that reason I stick to the cardio area and female only area of the gym


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## airborneal (25 Jan 2018)

User13710 said:


> The idea that the only reason why more women don't cycle must be because they don't want to does demonstrate a startling lack of imagination, but it is interesting that people who hold that view seem to feel the need to say it over and over again. Almost as if they would prefer it if the subject didn't get discussed at all.





User13710 said:


> Hint: there's more than one meaning of the word 'argument'.
> 
> 
> You don't get why it's an issue. We wonder why it is that more of us are not choosing to cycle, and whether there are things putting those women off that could be addressed. You are quite welcome to discuss why men don't go to spin classes (although I believe they do in huge numbers) but not here please, as this is a discussion about women and cycling.



I know there is more than one meaning to the word argument but from the way you reply to any others posts I assumed you wanted to turn it into a heated argument. Apologies if I have missed it [there's a lot of pages here] but have you actually put any theories forward or just slated others.


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## deptfordmarmoset (25 Jan 2018)

User13710 said:


> I thought that the point of the article in the OP was that despite increasing numbers of cyclists, there are vastly more male cyclists than female cyclists? So even though there might be more women than there were before, they are still not represented proportionately to the gender split of the general population.


The linked article seems more directed at listing the quoted reasons for not cycling than looking at percentages, though it does cite 50% more regular cycling activity for men than women, i.e. 66/33%. My feeling is that the more cycling becomes normalised the more that proportion will move closer to a balance.


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## Fab Foodie (25 Jan 2018)

User13710 said:


> If I remember correctly there was a period in which girls and young women aspired to look strong, lean, and muscled like Madonna? What happened to that idea I wonder? Role models now seem, at not much more than a glance admittedly, to be rather thin and soft by comparison.


I don't know. Davina McC has been leading a fresh charge recently for the ripped look and there is apparently interest in 'Bikini Body' fitness and competitions. Who _are _women's or young women's role models these days? Many RnB pop stars for example are not exactly sylphs or shrinking violets waifs that's for sure and they sure ain't short of 'Girl Power'....


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## Fab Foodie (25 Jan 2018)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> The linked article seems more directed at listing the quoted reasons for not cycling than looking at percentages, though it does cite 50% more regular cycling activity for men than women, i.e. 66/33%. My feeling is that the more cycling becomes normalised the more that proportion will move closer to a balance.


I think there's some truth in this. Women might just lag behind the men's growth curve.


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## FishFright (25 Jan 2018)

Not entirely off topic ...

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/oh-just-fk-off-say-women-20180125143116


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## User10119 (25 Jan 2018)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> The linked article seems more directed at listing the quoted reasons for not cycling than looking at percentages, though it does cite 50% more regular cycling activity for men than women, i.e. 66/33%. My feeling is that the more cycling becomes normalised the more that proportion will move closer to a balance.



In the style of the Danes/Dutch? Actually that makes sense.

If cycling is for the sporty and competitive, or seen as the domain of brave road warriors, or singles you out as "other" and thus makes _another _reason for you to be more susceptible to verbal/physical abuse, or puts you in situations where you are alone/isolated and perhaps more vulnerable to (predominantly male) violence then I think that many people generally will be put off and women are likely to be disproportionately so, for a number of reasons (including the ones that I've posted above, and above, and above).

If riding a bike is just kind of what everybody does, and how you get around, and is seen as safe and normal, and _"why on earth would I need special clothes or equipment?",_ and the family bike is a popular choice on the school run and so on - then it seems feasible that the (dis)proportions would likely change and the vicar and his/her husband/wife* would get back on their bikes once more.


*I actually have a lovely mate who is a cycling vicar - did LEL. Dunno if he's on here. His even lovelier wife (sorry G, but you know I'm right) is also a cyclist.


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## User10119 (25 Jan 2018)

FishFright said:


> Not entirely off topic ...
> 
> http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/oh-just-fk-off-say-women-20180125143116



That made me snort with laughter. Deeply unattractively, natch.


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## User6179 (25 Jan 2018)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> The linked article seems more directed at listing the quoted reasons for not cycling than looking at percentages, though it does cite 50% more regular cycling activity for men than women, i.e. 66/33%. My feeling is that the more cycling becomes normalised the more that proportion will move closer to a balance.



is 50% more not 60/40% ? 66/33% not 100% more?


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## Julia9054 (25 Jan 2018)

User13710 said:


> If I remember correctly there was a period in which girls and young women aspired to look strong, lean, and muscled like Madonna? What happened to that idea I wonder? Role models now seem, at not much more than a glance admittedly, to be rather thin and soft by comparison.


https://www.theguardian.com/lifeand...skinny-for-young-women?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
Read this recently - how well it relates to real life I don't know.


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## Julia9054 (25 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5128781, member: 9609"]I'm in no doubt nurture plays a big part, but is it bigger than nature; Where would you put the Nurture / Nature balance ?
I would easily put it at 80/20 in favour of Nature. we can certainly be influenced but we are who we are no matter what.[/QUOTE]
Based on what? Since nature and nurture cannot be scientifically disentangled it is a completely unhelpful side track and gets us nowhere in the discussion around why lower numbers of women cycle


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## User10119 (25 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5128781, member: 9609"]I'm in no doubt nurture plays a big part, but is it bigger than nature; Where would you put the Nurture / Nature balance ?
I would easily put it at 80/20 in favour of Nature. we can certainly be influenced but we are who we are no matter what.[/QUOTE]

I think testosterone and chromosones and dangly bits and gonads are remarkably convenient excuses for failing to address systemic inequalities and discrimination on the basis of gender and reassuringly supportive of the status quo.

And I'll suggest once more, just in case, looking at the previously linked stuff from that documentary about the way we treat babies differently depending on what gender we *perceive *them to be, and maybe seeing if you can find the documentary series somewhere because it was remarkably accessible and very interesting about all sorts of stuff to do with child development and gender.

You can prefer to believe it is down to the content of people's underpants - you are of course entitled to your opinion. But we very definitely treat children very *very *differently (even when we think we don't - see the aforementioned clip) according to gender and it starts when they are tiny. Babes-in-arms.

In a matter of months, the teacher/school/documentary makers were able to actually and significantly affect outcomes by addressing that problem and treating children in a less gendered manner and more equally. Girls learned that they could be strong, improved their spatial awareness and discovered that attractiveness wasn't actually the most important thing about them. Boys discovered that empathy is rewarding and how to experience and express emotions other than anger. Parents who didn't think they were sexist reflected on some of the millions of tiny ways that we and the world discriminates on the basis of gender without even noticing. The teacher just about learned to stop calling the boys 'mate', 'pal', 'buddy' and the girls 'sweetheart' and 'lovely' - although it took a reward chart with stickers awarded to him by his pupils to just about break the habit. They saw a difference - in just a few weeks. So even in there is a degree of Nature in the mix, we need to sort out the Nurture and tedious arguing about percentages is in this case, frankly, a remarkably tedious sidetrack, IMO.

ETA - TMN to @Julia9054 who was much less verbose than me!


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## deptfordmarmoset (25 Jan 2018)

Eddy said:


> is 50% more not 60/40% ? 66/33% not 100% more?


The exact same question occurred to me as I cycled to the kebab shop earlier. I do believe you're right


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## Inertia (25 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5128818, member: 10119"]I think testosterone and chromosones and dangly bits and gonads are remarkably convenient excuses for failing to address systemic inequalities and discrimination on the basis of gender and reassuringly supportive of the status quo.

And I'll suggest once more, just in case, looking at the previously linked stuff from that documentary about the way we treat babies differently depending on what gender we *perceive *them to be, and maybe seeing if you can find the documentary series somewhere because it was remarkably accessible and very interesting about all sorts of stuff to do with child development and gender.

You can prefer to believe it is down to the content of people's underpants - you are of course entitled to your opinion. But we very definitely treat children very *very *differently (even when we think we don't - see the aforementioned clip) according to gender and it starts when they are tiny. Babes-in-arms.

In a matter of months, the teacher/school/documentary makers were able to actually and significantly affect outcomes by addressing that problem and treating children in a less gendered manner and more equally. Girls learned that they could be strong, improved their spatial awareness and discovered that attractiveness wasn't actually the most important thing about them. Boys discovered that empathy is rewarding and how to experience and express emotions other than anger. Parents who didn't think they were sexist reflected on some of the millions of tiny ways that we and the world discriminates on the basis of gender without even noticing. The teacher just about learned to stop calling the boys 'mate', 'pal', 'buddy' and the girls 'sweetheart' and 'lovely' - although it took a reward chart with stickers awarded to him by his pupils to just about break the habit. They saw a difference - in just a few weeks. So even in there is a degree of Nature in the mix, we need to sort out the Nurture and tedious arguing about percentages is in this case, frankly, a remarkably tedious sidetrack, IMO.

ETA - TMN to @Julia9054 who was much less verbose than me![/QUOTE]
You make verbose sound like a bad thing. I think it was worth the extra photons.


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## User10119 (25 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5128899, member: 9609"]I was only but answering the reply made to me, the side track was not mine - may be you should address your complaint to the other poster for heading off topic.[/quote]

Who, l'il ol' me? But I was simply replying to you, which was _probably _quite obvious since I quoted the bit that I was responding to
[QUOTE 5128310, member: 9609"]without suggesting women can't be as brave as men, they certainly can be - In general women don't seem to take the risks men are willing to take ? probably something to do with our slightly different psychological characteristics, testosterone levels ?[/QUOTE]

The thing is, saying "it's down to testosterone" or "it's because of our evolutionary need to hunt" or "dangly bits" or "because they just don't want to because they are women and women are different" implies that it can't be changed. The social and cultural causes of disparities can be changed if we identify, acknowledge and address them.



> I suspect the *acceptable *answers to the thread will revolve around men behaving badly, even though there is no difference between men and women ? or is it any differences are solely down to incorrect upbringings ? so is the answer down to a more gender neutral upbringing (which I alluded to very early on in the thread)


(my bold)
It isn't about 'acceptable answers' - there's nobody adjudicating and declaring a winner, after all. I just disagree with you, and am expressing my disagreement, as you are disagreeing with me and expressing your disagreement. If several, or even a lot, of people disagree with you and express that disagreement they aren't silencing you - they are just disagreeing with you.


> personally I think the answer is far simpler - just make the roads safer - it could be just as simple as that. Are the roads safer for cycling in Denmark ?


Now here I think you are definitely onto something. For example, safer roads make it possible for mums to do the school run with the kids (and I work in 6 primary schools and can make the personal observation that although over the past 13 years there has been a noticeable increase in male{adj} parents/carers undertaking the task the vast majority of school-runners are female{adj}) on a bike and not in a chelsea tractor which then helps make the roads safer which then means.... etc etc etc. I'd certainly agree that is part of the solution.


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## User10119 (26 Jan 2018)

A Swedish perspective on "gender mainstreaming" and specifically starting with how prioritising gender equality affected snow clearance policies that is, I think, kind of relevant.

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2018/01/24/why-sweden-clears-walkways-before-roads/


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## deptfordmarmoset (26 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5129374, member: 10119"]A Swedish perspective on "gender mainstreaming" and specifically starting with how prioritising gender equality affected snow clearance policies that is, I think, kind of relevant.

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2018/01/24/why-sweden-clears-walkways-before-roads/[/QUOTE]
Illuminating!


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## User10119 (26 Jan 2018)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> Illuminating!



Yeah, I thought so. I'm pondering some stuff about it to work out what I think but I thought it was a really interesting perspective and approach to take.


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## Fab Foodie (26 Jan 2018)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> The exact same question occurred to me as I cycled to the kebab shop earlier. I do believe you're right


Meeting @potsy ?


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## airborneal (26 Jan 2018)

Over the last few days I have been asking a lot of Women [ok only about 40] I know if they cycle or not. The ones that said they don't [35] basically give the reason that it doesn't interest them so basically they choose not too.


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## derrick (26 Jan 2018)

airborneal said:


> Over the last few days I have been asking a lot of Women [ok only about 40] I know if they cycle or not. The ones that said they don't [35] basically give the reason that it doesn't interest them so basically they choose not too.


They will not except that on here, it's all about male domination.


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## airborneal (26 Jan 2018)

derrick said:


> They will not except that on here, it's all about male domination.



Yes I get that feeling !!


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## airborneal (26 Jan 2018)

User3094 said:


> Did you ask why not?



Mostly because it just didn't interest them, ok a simple reason but I just accepted that. I didn't want to start asking but 'what if this or what if that'
because I didn't want to put reasons into their mouths.


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## derrick (26 Jan 2018)

User3094 said:


> Well without wishing to put words into your mouths, that's the real point of this thread isn't it.?


Completely useless thread.


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## airborneal (26 Jan 2018)

User3094 said:


> Well without wishing to put words into your mouths, that's the real point of this thread isn't it.?



Surely it's to get their reasons, not to keep suggesting or prompting reasons that they may not have ever thought about.


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## hennbell (26 Jan 2018)

User13710 said:


> My anecdotal experience is that women cyclists often can't get out to join a ride due to not being able to get childcare or being required to drop everything to look after grandchildren. I have never once known this to happen to a man.



I pulled my 1 year old in a plastic chariot , that was 18 years ago. I used to note my poor cycling technique by the light tap of his helmet against the plastic chariot baby carrier, the smoother I peddled the less tapping i would hear. And he turned out mostly fine.


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## swansonj (26 Jan 2018)

airborneal said:


> Mostly because it just didn't interest them, ok a simple reason but I just accepted that. I didn't want to start asking but 'what if this or what if that'
> because I didn't want to put reasons into their mouths.


If someone asked me why I don't go swimming, I would say it doesn't interest me (or I don't enjoy it). 

If they asked further questions, they would discover a whole plethora of issues to do with convenience, accessibility, time, fitness, perceived fitness, confidence, fear of water, body image, childhood experiences and school PE teachers. 

And those are just the things I'm aware of myself, I daresay if they were interested and skilled they would uncover factors I'm not aware of. 

If they settled for my first answer, they wouldn't be improving their understanding very much.


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## airborneal (26 Jan 2018)

swansonj said:


> If someone asked me why I don't go swimming, I would say it doesn't interest me (or I don't enjoy it).
> 
> If they asked further questions, they would discover a whole plethora of issues to do with convenience, accessibility, time, fitness, perceived fitness, confidence, fear of water, body image, childhood experiences and school PE teachers.
> 
> And those are just the things I'm aware of myself, I daresa





swansonj said:


> If someone asked me why I don't go swimming, I would say it doesn't interest me (or I don't enjoy it).
> 
> If they asked further questions, they would discover a whole plethora of issues to do with convenience, accessibility, time, fitness, perceived fitness, confidence, fear of water, body image, childhood experiences and school PE teachers.
> 
> ...



I hear what you are saying but it was a simple question. I didn't have a clipboard and pen and a long questionnaire. I am not skilled and didn't have the time for a lengthy conversation. Also if someone says it doesn't interest them all the other stuff is irrelevant. 
To be honest the majority of people who are seeing this are cyclists, so not sure if there is any feedback from Women who don't cycle. I asked two simple questions, 'do you cycle' and if not 'why'. but not sure why I bothered.


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## Julia9054 (26 Jan 2018)

swansonj said:


> If someone asked me why I don't go swimming, I would say it doesn't interest me (or I don't enjoy it).
> 
> If they asked further questions, they would discover a whole plethora of issues to do with convenience, accessibility, time, fitness, perceived fitness, confidence, fear of water, body image, childhood experiences and school PE teachers.
> 
> ...


Same with me and any form of competitive team sports. I'm sure there are all sorts of brain weasels in there to discover should anyone try!


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## airborneal (26 Jan 2018)

User3094 said:


> It wasnt a survery just a simple closed question.



Fair comment but I couldn't think of what single word to use, lol. I have cheated and changed it now


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## FishFright (26 Jan 2018)

airborneal said:


> Over the last few days I have been asking a lot of Women [ok only about 40] I know if they cycle or not. The ones that said they don't [35] basically give the reason that it doesn't interest them so basically they choose not too.



No doubt what will follow won't be a stream of people doing the same but several posts criticising your methodology in a vain attempt to be all butch n macho


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## derrick (26 Jan 2018)

This stuff does not help get people on bikes. Our lives are worthless.
http://road.cc/content/news/236236-...roundabout-near-bristol-given-community-order


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## derrick (26 Jan 2018)

User13710 said:


> You seem awfully exercised about something so useless that you don't care about.
> 
> Anyway I am sure all the women on here are very grateful now that some blokes have sorted out the answer to the question, which is that women don't cycle because they don't want to, and there is actually nothing stopping them at all.


Why do you not go and ask the same question on a walking forum. You may get the answer you are looking. Compete waiste of time on here because you do not listen.


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## derrick (26 Jan 2018)

Maybe not from me. But others have given you the answers. I really cant be arsed with your constant bickering.am going to the pub.


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## Inertia (26 Jan 2018)

derrick said:


> They will not except that on here, it's all about male domination.





derrick said:


> Completely useless thread.





derrick said:


> Maybe not from me. But others have given you the answers. I really cant be arsed with your constant bickering.am going to the pub.


Probably for the best, I'm not sure whats attracting you to this useless thread.


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## PK99 (26 Jan 2018)

swansonj said:


> If someone asked me why I don't go swimming, I would say it doesn't interest me (or I don't enjoy it).
> 
> If they asked further questions, they would discover a whole plethora of issues to do with convenience, accessibility, time, fitness, perceived fitness, confidence, fear of water, body image, childhood experiences and school PE teachers.
> 
> ...



I don't swim because I find it boring. the gym I use has a pool but I only ever use it for water walking for rehab. in rehab I used the gym 5/6 days a week

ditto I don't run as i find that boring too.


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## mjr (26 Jan 2018)

User said:


> low and behold I was at the gym


And it was so believable until that point


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## User10119 (26 Jan 2018)

airborneal said:


> I hear what you are saying but it was a simple question. I didn't have a clipboard and pen and a long questionnaire. I am not skilled and didn't have the time for a lengthy conversation. Also if someone says it doesn't interest them all the other stuff is irrelevant.


Unless what you're trying to find out is _why _they aren't interested, of course.


> To be honest the majority of people who are seeing this are cyclists, so not sure if there is any feedback from Women who don't cycle.


*checks gender* *checks cobwebs on bikes* *waves*
Mostly lack of time time, energy and money not helped by the occasional bonus attentions of the visiting Black Dog. As a single parent (to two children with a fair age gap and very different cycling abilities) with a stressful, low-paid and time-consuming job the amount of cycling I do has crept down and down and down over the past few years. 7ish years ago I did the Dun Run, and my first FNRttC, regularly commuted between 40 and 60 miles a week, did a 50+ mile ride most weekends (including lots of rides with my eldest) and a 20-40 mile evening social ride with a few mates most weeks. Then my circumstances changed, and with astonishing bad timing I broke an elbow, and then it was winter and I lost much of the fitness I had. The long commute and the evening social rides fell victim to new and different time constraints because of different working hours and childcare commitments, which meant losing more fitness and eventually you lose enough fitness that there comes a point where the ride stops being fun - all the people you used to enjoy going out for a ride with get hypothermia waiting for you because you are so incredibly slow, and it all just hurts a bit too much to be enjoyable. It's really quite depressing, acutally.


> I asked two simple questions, 'do you cycle' and if not 'why'. but not sure why I bothered.


And if one of my colleagues, for example, had asked me I would probably say 'not much these days' and 'bit busy and not that interested'. Which would have been a polite way of not really answering the question.


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## rivers (26 Jan 2018)

My wife is what I would call an occasional cyclist. I am pretty avid. We are both female. I will cycle everywhere, whether it is to work, into town, club run, or a 100 mile round trip just to go somewhere new for coffee or lunch. My wife on the other hand, might cycle into town on occasion or a few times a year, the two of us will go out for a pootle either into Bath, or if we go away for a weekend/week, we'll take the bikes to go exploring a bit further afield (but only if it's fairly flat, the wife doesn't like hills). But she is honest, riding a bike everyday just doesn't appeal to her. She likes going out for the occasional ride with me, and we'll quite often cover 30-50 miles in a day. It has nothing to do with traffic on the roads, or cat-calling, or anything of that nature. It's just not her thing. And she doesn't mind getting sweaty and gross. She's a fitness instructor for a living and in a past life, she was a full time professional dancer. 
On another note, with all of the miles I do, sometimes alone, sometimes in a group, I never get cat called. Not that I've noticed anyway.


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## User10119 (26 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5129854, member: 9609"]it doesn't sound like it went too well
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/gender-equal-snow-removal-procedures-left-stockholm-paralyzed
I agree snow clearing shouldn't all be about keeping cars going for men (do women not drive in sweden?) , but the roads are the lifeline to the economy, Trucks and Emergency vehicles are essential and should be prioritised. Without lorries there is nothing.
[/quote]
And of course the record-breaking levels of snowfall had nothing to with it at all...
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/gender-analysis-budget-snow-sweden-1.4494640


> That doesn't mean the merits of gender-equal snow clearing have been accepted by everyone.
> "Some think it's ridiculous," said Helldén.
> In 2016, the policy was internationally mocked, particularly by some conservative media, after buses and trains were stalled following a storm.
> "We had more snow in two days than we had had for a 100 years. So the problem hadn't anything to do with gender-equal snow clearing," Helldén said.





> But getting back on topic - interesting approach from the beeb in reducing mens pay to make it fairer, could a similar approach e taken for the cycling problem, may be some sort of permit system for males and limit the numbers so as there is a better gender balance?


Are gender pay gaps in the media and entertainment industry more or less OT than gender mainstreaming policies, specifically ones designed to affect travel including cycling, in Sweden? 
View attachment 393358


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## mjr (26 Jan 2018)

rivers said:


> My wife is what I would call an occasional cyclist.


Made of chipboard and covered with a frilly cloth?

Sorry, that's an occasional table, isn't it?

IGMC


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## derrick (26 Jan 2018)

I think we all need to get to the pub for a beer. I am at thel Moon in Enfield feel free to join me.


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## Fab Foodie (26 Jan 2018)

derrick said:


> I think we all need to get to the pub for a beer. I am at thel Moon in Enfield feel free to join me.


I would, but it’s not my thing....


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## derrick (26 Jan 2018)

User said:


> men today, they go to the pub to reaffirm their masculinity and end up reading cyclechat, like a billy no mates..
> in days of yore men backslapped and raised a glass to the chain and the kitchen sink, nowadays it seems it just talking bullshite on the internet and refusing to learn and listen to the reasons of why women don't participate in whatever, they would rather repeat the same old rhetoric,


I go to the pub to get away from the bullshit on here. I can talk to real women and men. Without them hiding behind made up names. Face to face people actually have a proper conversation. You should try it some time. So much more meaningful.  Am back home now fealing chilled.


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## deptfordmarmoset (26 Jan 2018)

Back from the pub and I can't help thinking after catching up on this thread that the whole discussion would be a whole lot easier in a pub. Around a table, face to face, where different positions don't seem quite so yes/no and reactions are not so polarised. There's a dialogue here, perhaps not particularly obvious under all the noise, but it's there nevertheless and still worth carrying on, for me anyway.


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## vickster (26 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5129854, member: 9609"]

But getting back on topic - interesting approach from the beeb in reducing mens pay to make it fairer, could a similar approach e taken for the cycling problem, may be some sort of permit system for males and limit the numbers so as there is a better gender balance?[/QUOTE]
That's not really the case is it, only 6 men have (thus far) agreed to have their pay reduced in response to the resignation by Carrie Gracie
I have not heard of an immediate realignment of male and female salaries across the board. For example , has Chris Evans had his salary reduced from £2.5m to say the £450-500k that the highest paid female earns 

Do you think they would have done so if it hadn't been for the recent publication of pay disparity?

Off topic, this might be one for Current Affairs. I don't think BBC salaries heavily influence whether women cycle or not 

I assume your bit about permits is a Friday night joke...surely everyone should be encouraged and enabled to cycle regardless? The fundamental question is around women not cycling and not why more men cycle


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## Fab Foodie (26 Jan 2018)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> Back from the pub and I can't help thinking after catching up on this thread that the whole discussion would be a whole lot easier in a pub. Around a table, face to face, where different positions don't seem quite so yes/no and reactions are not so polarised. There's a dialogue here, perhaps not particularly obvious under all the noise, but it's there nevertheless and still worth carrying on, for me anyway.


Bottoms up


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## derrick (26 Jan 2018)

Well i did escape the bullshit for a couple of hours.


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## Inertia (26 Jan 2018)

derrick said:


> Well i did escape the bullshit for a couple of hours.


It must be terrible being forced in here


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## derrick (26 Jan 2018)

Inertia said:


> It must be terrible being forced in here


I love it.it keeps me amused as there is nothing on the box.


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## Inertia (26 Jan 2018)

derrick said:


> I love it.it keeps me amused as there is nothing on the box.


Well maybe it would be nice to be respectful and let people discuss the subject if you aren't actually here to talk.


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## Fab Foodie (26 Jan 2018)

derrick said:


> Well i did escape the bullshit for a couple of hours.


....as did we.....


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## derrick (26 Jan 2018)

Fab Foodie said:


> ....as did we.....


Did you go to the pub aswell


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## derrick (26 Jan 2018)

User said:


> What is your purpose posting here?


It's a forum anyone can post. The origanal question has been answerd. But there are people on here that for some reason will not except this. They want the men to say it's there fault. 
Reason number one they do not want to
Some woman have no interest in cycling there choice.
Some women think it'dangerous to ride on the roads. That will not change till the goverment start taking cyclist seriously. It will be many years before we get to where Holland is. I really do not see what the problem is if women choose not to cycle. It's there choice.


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## derrick (26 Jan 2018)

User said:


> Nonsense


Yes i agree. It's nothing to do with men.As you know i was in the pup this evening. Spoke to three women. Casually asked about cycling the answers i got are as in the previous post.


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## vickster (26 Jan 2018)

derrick said:


> Yes i agree. It's nothing to do with men.As you know i was in the pup this evening. Spoke to three women. Casually asked about cycling the answers i got are as in the previous post.


So those of us who have received verbal abuse from men while cycling (including myself) have made it up, imagined it, misheard...?


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## Julia9054 (26 Jan 2018)

derrick said:


> Yes i agree. It's nothing to do with men.As you know i was in the pup this evening. Spoke to three women. Casually asked about cycling the answers i got are as in the previous post.


Control group?


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## Inertia (26 Jan 2018)

derrick said:


> It's a forum anyone can post. The origanal question has been answerd. But there are people on here that for some reason will not except this.


It sounds like it was answered to your satisfaction so everyone should accept your verdict. Other people may think differently.


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## iandg (27 Jan 2018)

Haven't ploughed through 29 pages. Is the answer chauvinistic males?


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## derrick (27 Jan 2018)

vickster said:


> So those of us who have received verbal abuse from men while cycling (including myself) have made it up, imagined it, misheard...?


I never said it's right.i know you have not imagined it. But there will always be arsoles out there. I wish i knew the answer.But in time hopefully things will change. But at the end of the day people will only cycle if they want to.


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## Julia9054 (27 Jan 2018)

derrick said:


> I never said it's right.i know you have not imagined it. But there will always be arsoles out there. I wish i knew the answer.But in time hopefully things will change. But at the end of the day people will only cycle if they want to.


Let's rephrase the question then. What makes women not want to cycle in greater numbers than men not wanting to cycle?


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## User10119 (27 Jan 2018)

wicker man said:


> Haven't ploughed through 29 pages. Is the answer chauvinistic males?


There are, as you can see above, those who believe that there are those who would like to reduce the answer to that - although I don't think there's many who have actually argued that point.

Other suggestions include men's evolutionary need to hunt, women having on average less disposable income/available leisure, testosterone, dangly bits, women being psychologically less brave, men having typically typically fewer caring responsibilities, women not liking unfeminine activities or getting sweaty, roads being unsafe, women not knowing how to mend punctures, women just not fancying it because women are different, the risk of verbal/physical sexual/sexualised harrassment and abuse, Nature, Nurture, and probably a few others. There's some interesting stuff in there, and some utter tosh.


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## iandg (27 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5130275, member: 10119"]There are, as you can see above, those who believe that there are those who would like to reduce the answer to that - although I don't think there's many who have actually argued that point.

Other suggestions include men's evolutionary need to hunt, women having on average less disposable income/available leisure, testosterone, dangly bits, women being psychologically less brave, men having typically typically fewer caring responsibilities, women not liking unfeminine activities or getting sweaty, roads being unsafe, women not knowing how to mend punctures, women just not fancying it because women are different, the risk of verbal/physical sexual/sexualised harrassment and abuse, Nature, Nurture, and probably a few others. There's some interesting stuff in there, and some utter tosh.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the summary


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## derrick (27 Jan 2018)

Inertia said:


> It sounds like it was answered to your satisfaction so everyone should accept your verdict. Other people may think differently.


Please enlighten me as to what you think the problem is. And could you be honest.


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## User10119 (27 Jan 2018)

wicker man said:


> Thanks for the summary


TBH I think that if the subject - the fact that relatively few women ride bikes - is one that interests you it's a thread that is worth the read. OK, I do have a tendency to read really bloody quickly so don't find it a massive time commitment to plough through 20 odd (some of them very odd) pages....


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## User10119 (27 Jan 2018)

derrick said:


> Please enlighten me as to what you think the problem is. And could you be honest.



Has anyone been dishonest?
I can't speak for @Inertia but I don't claim to know The Answer. I have given a number of factors that I think may contribute (financial, time, responsibilities, cultural norms embedded from when we are very young) and tried to provide some sources to substantiate why I think those factors may be significant. I've also found it interesting to read some other perspectives that I hadn't thought of or previously considered. For example - myself, I haven't particularly found that I particularly experience more sexualised abuse/harassment when cycling then I do in other situations - but I have no reason to doubt that others have a different, personal, experience in this.


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## User10119 (27 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5130282, member: 9609"]can we now have a thread that explores why very few men ride horses[/QUOTE]

If you think it is an interesting topic and would like to discuss it, choose the appropriate board and start that thread! I'm pretty sure this option is available to all.


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## Inertia (27 Jan 2018)

derrick said:


> Please enlighten me as to what you think the problem is. And could you be honest.


I am always honest but I don't pretend to know what the problem is or that there is one problem. 

Just because I don't know what the problem is I don't assume there isn't one.


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## derrick (27 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5130284, member: 10119"]Has anyone been dishonest?
I can't speak for @Inertia but I don't claim to know The Answer. I have given a number of factors that I think may contribute (financial, time, responsibilities, cultural norms embedded from when we are very young) and tried to provide some sources to substantiate why I think those factors may be significant. I've also found it interesting to read some other perspectives that I hadn't thought of or previously considered. For example - myself, I haven't particularly found that I particularly experience more sexualised abuse/harassment when cycling then I do in other situations - but I have no reason to doubt that others have a different, personal, experience in this.[/QUOTE]

I was hoping Inertia would answer.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (27 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5130282, member: 9609"]I think I have finally worked it all out - Women are too busy riding horses, I see more women riding horses than I see men riding bikes. This week out of 78 mile i have seen 3 women on horses and 0 cyclist. I will nearly always see more people on horses that I will on bikes and at least 99 out of 100 on a horse will be a women. Which sort of knocks my feeling unsafe theory on the head (being on a horse is not for the faint hearted) In fact it probably knocks all the theories in this thread on the head, aprt from punctures ?

can we now have a thread that explores why very few men ride horses[/QUOTE]
I like hosses, to speak to. Riding hosses is not for me.


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## Jimidh (27 Jan 2018)

They make lovely lasagnes - buy them from Iceland regularly.


Marmion said:


> I like hosses, to speak to. Riding hosses is not for me.


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## Jimidh (27 Jan 2018)

I ride with a totally 100% male club, not through design, but through reputation we are know as fast and perhaps off putting but we really would love some women to join our group.

I know it happens but I find it hard to get into the mindset of cyclists abusing women out cycling. One of the positive aspects we have all commented on increased amount of female ( okay I went there) cyclists we see on rides.


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## User10119 (27 Jan 2018)

Jimidh said:


> I ride with a totally 100% male club, not through design, but through reputation we are know as fast and perhaps off putting but we really would love some women to join our group.
> 
> I know it happens but I find it hard to get into the mindset of cyclists abusing women out cycling. One of the positive aspects we have all commented on increased amount of female ( *okay I went there*) cyclists we see on rides.


(my bold)
Went where? If (as it sounds like to me although I may be misinterpreting, hence me asking the question) you mean the fact that you used the word 'female' can I say that there's nowt wrong with the word female used correctly, as you have done above.
e.g.
_female cyclists
female friend_
- all perfectly corrrectly using female as an adjective to describe the noun which follows.
_women who ride bikes
woman I am friends with_
- again, correct use of English where the noun is women or woman

I actually know a quite a lot of women who rides bikes - possibly because I live in fairly cycling-friendly pan-flat bit of the world and know a lot of green-leaning hippy-ish types. In the school bike sheds at the SmallestCub's school you'll regularly see two or three tandems, a couple of bakfiets-type affairs, a bunch of tagalongs/follow-mes/bike seats and a load of pretty decent bikes from balance bikes through the frog/isla types to some pretty nice adult bikes. In the school bike sheds, like in the playground, the male parents/carers are outnumbered by the female ones. But elsewhere, on the roads, I do still see a lot more men than women on bikes and whenever I encounter club-run type groups they seem to be, like yours, predominantly (and sometimes entirely) made up of men.

If you'd like to get some women to join your club run, what can you do to achieve that? I'm not a club cyclist and never will be - apart from anything else, my dyspraxic tendencies make riding in a tight bunch extraordinarily stressful so even when I rode a fair bit and was significantly faster than I am these days I was very cautious about what styles of groups I would ride out with - but there's plenty on here who are. Have any of them found strategies that help to make that particular kind of cycling more accessible to women?


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## Ajay (27 Jan 2018)

I'm just back from Park Run, proof that men and women of all ages and abilities can participate in equal numbers in a positive, supportive, egalitarian environment. 
#thereishope


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## deptfordmarmoset (27 Jan 2018)

This popped up in my inbox a couple of days ago and it seemed relevant:
https://www.cyclinguk.org/newsletter/cycle-campaign-news-january-2018#Headlines

An excerpt: 

Only 2% of all trips were cycled in 2016, the same proportion as it’s been for years;
However, the average person said they clocked up more cycle miles over the year, and rode further per trip compared to a decade ago (53 miles (+26%) / 3.5 miles (+50%) respectively);
According to GB traffic counts, total miles cycled in GB has gone up by 23% since 2006 (although 2016’s 3.5 billion miles pales beside 1949’s 15 billion);
Men cycle three times as many trips and four times further than women;
White and Mixed adults cycle the most; Asian adults cycle the least;
The most common purpose for cycling trips was commuting, followed by leisure cycling;
12% of adults cycled at least once a week, most likely those: with no disability; living in the least deprived quartile; and/or in the East of England; 
The prevalence of cycling at least once a week is: highest in Cambridge (57%), followed by Oxford (39%); over 20% in only 18 of the 350+ other authorities; and less than 6% in nine (Barnsley is lowest at 4%).
DfT report for walking and cycling in 2016.


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## deptfordmarmoset (27 Jan 2018)

It's proverbial bus time in my inbox. Here's another one:
http://www.cyclist.co.uk/in-depth/4090/how-can-we-get-more-women-into-cycling


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## derrick (27 Jan 2018)

User said:


> You don't want to think about the issue but wish you knew the answer? You hope that something will change but don't want to talk about what you think needs to change, why, and how that could be done?


If i did not want to speak about the issue i would not be on here. Just cant stand the bullshit like this. Why dont you grow up.


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## Julia9054 (27 Jan 2018)

Ajay said:


> I'm just back from Park Run, proof that men and women of all ages and abilities can participate in equal numbers in a positive, supportive, egalitarian environment.
> #thereishope


https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-women-took-over-the-world-of-running-1463415987
Some figures from this US article. In 2016 women made up 57% of long distance race finishers up from 32% in 1984. 44% of marathon finishers and 61% of half marathon finishers today are women. Were people saying women just don't want to run in 1984? 
In the article, only 15% of members of USA Cycling are women. 
This looks only at competitive running and cycling and we all know there is more to both than competing but what did running organisations do that cycling organisations could be doing?


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## derrick (27 Jan 2018)

User said:


> Here's an idea, stop the personal stuff and discuss the issue which, to remind you, is why is it that women do not cycle as much as they could. Alternatively, if you don't want to participate in consideration of that issue, why not just leave it?


You are the one who always wants to make it personal, i am trying to understand, and find the underlying problem some people on here have with the OPs question.


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## Rickshaw Phil (27 Jan 2018)

*Mod note:*

Coming in to catch up with this thread, the last few pages seem to have mostly involved personal bickering or silly comments intended to get a negative reaction/disrupt the thread.

Enough now and back on topic. I'm quite happy to lock anyone who can't discuss the subject sensibly out of the thread after this point.

Thanks.


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## MontyVeda (27 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5130328, member: 10119"]...
I actually know a quite a lot of women who rides bikes - possibly because I live in fairly cycling-friendly pan-flat bit of the world and know a lot of green-leaning hippy-ish types. 
...[/QUOTE]
You could be onto something there... out of my circle of friends the m/f split of regular cycling types is pretty much even and we tend to be a bit green leaning and a tad hippy-ish.


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## Inertia (27 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5130828, member: 9609"]I doubt chauvinism plays any bigger role in low numbers in women cycling than it does it in the low numbers of men riding horses[/QUOTE]
What makes you think that?


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## User10119 (27 Jan 2018)

I'll have to see if I can find the article I was reading t'other day that was talking about the different types of riding generally indulged in by horsey people. Apparently blokes tend more towards the polo/hunting/eventing type riding and women tend more towards the dancing ponies/hacking kind of thing and if you account for all the horsey-type 'sporting' activities together there's a more even mix of genders than one might at first think. There are very marked disparities in the particpation levels of people from different social classes and financial situations. I only know a couple of horsey women; both also ride a bike, and do most of their horsing about off road. Of course you don't see many people at all, of any gender, commuting by horse, shopping by horse, doing the school run by horse, riding their horses through town centres, or locking their horses up outside the library/cafe etc. I'm not at all sure it is much more relevant to the discussion of cycling than a discussion of predominantly female hobbies such as bingo or ballroom dancing or knitting would be.


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## Julia9054 (27 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5130936, member: 10119"]I'll have to see if I can find the article I was reading t'other day that was talking about the different types of riding generally indulged in by horsey people. Apparently blokes tend more towards the polo/hunting/eventing type riding and women tend more towards the dancing ponies/hacking kind of thing and if you account for all the horsey-type 'sporting' activities together there's a more even mix of genders than one might at first think. There are very marked disparities in the particpation levels of people from different social classes and financial situations. I only know a couple of horsey women; both also ride a bike, and do most of their horsing about off road. Of course you don't see many people at all, of any gender, commuting by horse, shopping by horse, doing the school run by horse, riding their horses through town centres, or locking their horses up outside the library/cafe etc. I'm not at all sure it is much more relevant to the discussion of cycling than a discussion of predominantly female hobbies such as bingo or ballroom dancing or knitting would be.[/QUOTE]
My horsey workmate says if i can have the cycle to work scheme that she should have horse to work and work should provide her with somewhere to keep it!


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## MontyVeda (27 Jan 2018)

User13710 said:


> Please let's not start discussing men riding horses.


what about cavemen riding horses?


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## Racing roadkill (28 Jan 2018)

They tend to think it’s all ‘smashy smashy HDAU’ the majority of women cyclists I come across want to talk, and stop, and stuff. Most blokes want to smash stuff and be the ball, and rahhhhhhhh. That’s where the disconnect happens.


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## Slick (28 Jan 2018)

User said:


> Any chance anyone can translate this into coherent English?


Not all of it, but I know the "be the ball" is an aggressive golf shout that originated across the pond. So my guess would be, the girls want to stop and chat whilst the boys are all aggressive American wannabes.

Could be wrong.


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## Slick (28 Jan 2018)

I must admit, this thread has made me wonder, mostly about the topic at hand, but also about some of the other stuff.

Two events that struck me today made me wonder if it's an age thing? I attended a junior cycle event for all age categories up to 16. The split seemed to be around 50/50 between the sexes. I went to my BIL birthday bash tonight where someone had brought him the local rag from the old home town, and I noticed another friends twin girls were on the back page for athletics in the under 9 category. A year or two back, I was captain of the golf club, and as such was responsible for improving the flagging membership. We had lots of adult members, lots of juniors who played with their parents, but once they hit 16 we seemed to lose them, and we never really did pin down why. 

I realise that my personal example includes the loss in equal measure to both sexes but I still wondered if it's a factor where returning cyclists is where the real difference becomes noticeable?


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## Alan O (28 Jan 2018)

Slick said:


> Not all of it, but I know the "be the ball" is an aggressive golf shout that originated across the pond. So my guess would be, the girls want to stop and chat whilst the boys are all aggressive American wannabes.
> 
> Could be wrong.


If that's what it means, then it's not even close to an accurate description of the many people, male or female, that I've ridden with over the years.


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## Blue Hills (28 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5130282, member: 9609"]

can we now have a thread that explores why very few men ride horses[/QUOTE]

I couldn't possibly repeat the theory on this a member of this forum gave me for this on a ride a few years ago.

But back to the thread.


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## vickster (28 Jan 2018)

Alan O said:


> If that's what it means, then it's not even close to an* accurate description* of the many people, male or female, that I've ridden with over the years.


Given who posted the nonsense, that’s not entirely surprising


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## deptfordmarmoset (28 Jan 2018)

Not directly related to cycling but I went to my youngest granddaughter's ''Babyballet'' a few weeks ago. It was a loud and very high pitched explosion of pink. And all the babies (well, aged between 2 and 4 ) were girls. It makes little sense to ask why the baby boys didn't want to come as the decisions would have been made for them. It was a stark reminder for me as to how early gender roles get imposed on children and how pinking can replace thinking.

And you do see very few princesses on Pinarellos....


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## Racing roadkill (28 Jan 2018)

Slick said:


> Not all of it, but I know the "be the ball" is an aggressive golf shout that originated across the pond. So my guess would be, the girls want to stop and chat whilst the boys are all aggressive American wannabes.
> 
> Could be wrong.


Pretty much spot on.


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## Racing roadkill (28 Jan 2018)

Alan O said:


> If that's what it means, then it's not even close to an accurate description of the many people, male or female, that I've ridden with over the years.


You’ve obviously got lucky, or live with the Hobbitses, in the shire, or something.


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## Racing roadkill (28 Jan 2018)

Julia9054 said:


> My horsey workmate says if i can have the cycle to work scheme that she should have horse to work and work should provide her with somewhere to keep it!


I quite like that idea. I may even put it to the powers that be, at the company I work with for the majority of the time I can be arsed to.


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## bpsmith (28 Jan 2018)

Then can I have Honda to work scheme too then @Julia9054?


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## User10119 (1 Feb 2018)

I just happened upon this blog, which seems of relevance.
http://www.mummysgoneacycle.com/womenonbikes/


> Why don’t more women cycle? Why is cycling still so male dominated? What can we do to get more women on bikes?
> These are questions that many people ask. They are questions I have asked myself on a number of levels.
> When I used to race time trials, I never failed to be in the top ten women. This is not testament to how good I was, it is testament to how few women were time trialling. I was always in the top ten women because there were rarely ten women in the race.
> 
> My main focus at the moment is the other end of the scale. Why are so many women reluctant to get on a bike at all?





> So why are the streets and cycle paths not teeming with women on bikes? According to Cycling UK in March 2017, in Scotland more than three times as many men as women cycle to work. There are a number of reasons why I think this is. This is based on my own experiences, from chatting to others and from a bit of reading. It is not an evidence based study. Bear in mind that I am talking about novice women getting on to a bike in the first place. There is also plenty to discuss about getting more women to race, but that it a discussion for another post.
> 
> *Intimidation and fear *
> [...]
> ...


I particularly like the suggestions for what we could do to improve the situation - which includes infrastructure improvements in the long run but also includes positive actions that we can all do now to support more women cycling - like mentoring, and setting an example, and being positive ambassadors for the joys of utility cyling.


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## Turdus philomelos (2 Feb 2018)

Leving work most days at least one female colleague will comment about keeping safe and to watch out for dangerous drivers.

This almost happened to me and on a blind bend yesterday on the way home. Scared the life out of me.
Drivers were really mental yesterday. I blame the blue, super moon.

Hope today is less eventful.


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## Blue Hills (2 Feb 2018)

Not gender specific of course.

Can't imagine what that driver was thinking with a clear road. Such appalling driving one can't help wondering, incredible as it sounds, whether it was deliberate.

Will watch rest of thread with interest. Long since given up on getting gf out on a bike.


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## Blue Hills (2 Feb 2018)

Ta for info.


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## 12boy (2 Feb 2018)

I live in Wyoming, a state with 100,000 sq miles and around 500,000 people, and I have been commuting for over 25 years. I totally agree with the mummygoneona cycle..com article as to the reasons why few people commute or ride much.
It is hard to ride to work in an office for any distance unless there is a locker and shower at the end and look ok for work.
I have doped out a safe route but my son in Chicago will not ride the excellent bike I built up for him because he does not have a safe way to go. Safety is a real concern.
Many new to biking find gears intimidating and riding, especially in traffic scary at first, and don't feel they can fix flats etc they may have.
Weather, especially high winds, ice and snow seems to be daunting.
Another factor is that until you ride enough to be comfortable on a bike the very real benefits are not realized......the stress relief of a ride home after a tough day at work, the endorphin buzz from the ride, the ability to eat a bit more and still lose weight, and knowing that if you ride in you will ride home so no need to go to a gym, as examples.
Until riding is safe and the rider learns how to set up a bike for safe travel in a range of weather, and how to dress so as to be comfortable, many people just aren't going to see this as something they want to do. In the mountain west mtn biking is very popular as it is usually done in car free areas and often in groups so it is safer on many levels. Unfortunately, it is a bit elitist as high end mtn bikes are very expensive. Still, anything that gets someone in a bike is a good thing in my opinion.
I know this doesn't specifically address why women are less likely to ride, but when biking is more normalized as a common method of transportation and not seen as only for racers and athletes, I think it likely that will change.


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## Alan O (12 Feb 2018)

I've just started with _Let's Ride_ rides, having gone on my first one the weekend before last - approx 30 miles at an undemanding pace, and very enjoyable. They're not focused on speed/sport/etc, but are aimed at having a nice ride with nice people, and visiting nice places.

The gender balance (of 14 people) was 50/50, and looking at other planned rides in this area, that seems to be about the usual mix. In fact, as _Let's Ride_ also covers women-only _Breeze_ rides, there are probably more female _Let's Riders_ out at any one time than male.

We were overtaken at one point by _Liverpool Century_ club riders, and that group was exactly 50/50 too (though there were only two of them, so it's perhaps not all that statistically meaningful ).

Anyway, this doesn't help answer the question posed by this thread at all, but it's just an observation that I thought was encouraging.

https://www.letsride.co.uk/


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## AndyRM (16 Feb 2018)




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## Blue Hills (16 Feb 2018)

Presumably, as long as they follow the gender-neutral tip to avoid the deputy dawg look, also a cycling tip for men.


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## Pumpkin the robot (18 Feb 2018)

A friend of mine got his girlfriend to write on his blog about why women do not ride bikes:

https://bangingonaboutbikes.wordpress.com/2018/02/18/so-why-dont-more-women-cycle/


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## User10119 (18 Feb 2018)

Cheers, I enjoyed that. Particularly liked:


> Signal to your members and followers that you are actively encouraging more women to join in. Ask what the group could do to make rides and meet-ups more welcoming! *Be prepared to receive some (hopefully constructive) criticism, and be prepared to act on it! *Be prepared to lose some members to the PC Gone Mad brigade. Declare zero-tolerance on sexism and other isms. Offer to support events or rides organised by and for women. *Diversify! *(Diversity is good!)


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## Slick (18 Feb 2018)

Pumpkin the robot said:


> A friend of mine got his girlfriend to write on his blog about why women do not ride bikes:
> 
> https://bangingonaboutbikes.wordpress.com/2018/02/18/so-why-dont-more-women-cycle/


Yeah, some really good points well made and referenced. I know I will probably stand accused of missing the point entirely, when I comment that most of the reasons stated keep guys off the bike as well, but I get the point that it affects women more.


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## User10119 (18 Feb 2018)

Slick said:


> Yeah, some really good points well made and referenced. I know I will probably stand accused of missing the point entirely, when I comment that most of the reasons stated keep guys off the bike as well, but I get the point that it affects women more.



I think that's related to her closing paragraph


> *You’re welcome.*
> Finally, to all the cycling champions and policy-makers out there, I’d like to say on behalf of reticent lady-cyclists all across the UK, you’re welcome for our innate ability to be your sure-fire litmus test for how good your infrastructure truly is…
> 
> 
> > _Gil Penalosa, who runs Toronto-based consultancy 8-80 Cities, describes women cyclists as the “indicator species” for how bike-friendly a city is. “If there aren’t at least as many women as men, then usually it’s because cycling is not safe enough. It’s an indicator that you do not have good enough cycling infrastructure.” [source]_


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## Slick (18 Feb 2018)

[QUOTE 5155930, member: 10119"]I think that's related to her closing paragraph[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I did read that and tend to agree. Maybe when they replace Chris Boardman with Katie Archibald we will see real change.


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## Supersuperleeds (25 Feb 2018)

I saw the women in the BBC article today on the GCW.


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## Suzi76 (10 Mar 2018)

I have been cycling for around 3 years now. I was a complete novice (never really cycled as a child) and would still consider myself to be a beginner. I have found everyone I’ve encountered, both in store and on the road, to be encouraging and helpful towards female cyclists. It was daunting getting out alone but not because of attitudes or behaviour towards me but rather due to my own lack of confidence (not helped by a number of falls clipping out!) I still need to have an “anxiety poop” before each ride but the important thing is that I’m still getting out there once a week weather permitting!! I would encourage more women to participate and I would like to thank all you chaps who offer support and encouragement.


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## Slick (11 Mar 2018)

Suzi76 said:


> I have been cycling for around 3 years now. I was a complete novice (never really cycled as a child) and would still consider myself to be a beginner. I have found everyone I’ve encountered, both in store and on the road, to be encouraging and helpful towards female cyclists. It was daunting getting out alone but not because of attitudes or behaviour towards me but rather due to my own lack of confidence (not helped by a number of falls clipping out!) I still need to have an “anxiety poop” before each ride but the important thing is that I’m still getting out there once a week weather permitting!! I would encourage more women to participate and I would like to thank all you chaps who offer support and encouragement.


I think most people do the "anxiety" thing. I always just assumed it was your body reacting to you preparing for an effort. I'm probably wrong, but it rarely happens on a commute, and that's when I've really got something to be anxious about.

Nice post though, I'm glad your experience has been positive.


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## Proto (11 Mar 2018)

Yep, women don’t ride


View: https://instagram.com/p/BgKMGUxj4ZO/


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## User10119 (11 Mar 2018)

Proto said:


> Yep, women don’t ride
> View: https://instagram.com/p/BgKMGUxj4ZO/



[QUOTE 5123968, member: 10119"]As to actual reasons why fewer women cycle than men - I reckon there's loads of contributory factors. It is quite important to distinguish between reasons that an individual of any gender does or doesn't choose to ride a bike for sport/leisure/utility etc and the the reasons that groups of people may experience barriers to participation.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE 5124009, member: 10119"]Remember - distinguish between the individuals and the groups.[/quote]


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## EMorgan (21 Jun 2018)

Hello everyone! Haven’t gone through the entire thread, but I can tell you that I do all the maintenance work myself. I’ve always been interested in how EVERYTHING works, so naturally, it all lead to me watching my dad fix things, tutorials, reading books and manuals. :nerd: It’s really a great thing when you do the work yourself. Fantastic feeling.


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