# It looks like we’re getting back to normal a bit quicker than I thought.



## Racing roadkill (17 Jun 2020)

I’ve just had an email from B.C. telling me that I can lead small rides again ( ride social only until July 4th )as of tomorrow. There’s a zoom meeting to explain exactly what’s what tomorrow. I’m surprised we’ve been given the green light so soon, but it’s a very welcome step back towards normality.


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## PaulSB (17 Jun 2020)

I'm not sure how accurate you are with this interpretation but it does depend on the rides you lead. As a club sec I've received information which contradicts your post.

There will be an official announcement tomorrow. I would wait to see that before reaching a conclusion.


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## Drago (17 Jun 2020)

B.C? Christ, I'd feel safer riding a pogo stick with a castor on the bottom than with one of their rides.


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## AndyRM (17 Jun 2020)

Drago said:


> B.C? Christ, I'd feel safer riding a pogo stick with a castor on the bottom than with one of their rides.



Depends on how close to the door zone you're encouraged to get by the ride leader.


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## Ming the Merciless (17 Jun 2020)

Drago said:


> B.C? Christ, I'd feel safer riding a pogo stick with a castor on the bottom than with one of their rides.



Indeed their accident record isn’t great. Particularly in the Southampton area.


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## fossyant (17 Jun 2020)

Drago said:


> B.C? Christ, I'd feel safer riding a pogo stick with a castor on the bottom than with one of their rides.



Jog on you CTC sandal wearer. 👅


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## CanucksTraveller (17 Jun 2020)

BC? 
Bloody splitters.


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## Racing roadkill (17 Jun 2020)

PaulSB said:


> I'm not sure how accurate you are with this interpretation but it does depend on the rides you lead. As a club sec I've received information which contradicts your post.
> 
> There will be an official announcement tomorrow. I would wait to see that before reaching a conclusion.


I’m very accurate about it


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## Drago (17 Jun 2020)

Ha ha! Yes, the CTC boys and girls are a bit sandal and tank top, and while I'm a member I dont ride with them either. Their ride leaders are no better, just wrinklier. 

The problem with being a professional trainer of professional ride leaders I find this amateur stuff does seem a bit...amateur, sometimes dangerously so. Even worse, a lot of the ride leaders in both organisations are so far up their own backsides I'm surprised they don't spontaneously turn inside out. BC and CUK are very much getting what they pay for with their ride leaders.

In any case, I don't think either group would want me on one of their organised rides again. They're a bit fed up of me humming the Mickey Mouse theme every time they cocked up, which meant I ended up humming almost continuously. I also hum it to bike cam videos that ride leaders post up on the web.


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## PaulSB (17 Jun 2020)

@Racing roadkill - yes you clearly are correct. As I said it "depends on the rides you lead" - obviously yours are covered.


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## Racing roadkill (17 Jun 2020)

Drago said:


> Ha ha! Yes, the CTC boys and girls are a bit sandal and tank top, and while I'm a member I dont ride with them either. Their ride leaders are no better, just wrinklier.
> 
> The problem with being a professional trainer of professional ride leaders I find this amateur stuff does seem a bit...amateur, sometimes dangerously so. Even worse, a lot of the ride leaders in both organisations are so far up their own backsides I'm surprised they don't spontaneously turn inside out. BC and CUK are very much getting what they pay for with their ride leaders.
> 
> In any case, I don't think either group would want me on one of their organised rides again. They're a bit fed up of me humming the Mickey Mouse theme every time they cocked up, which meant I ended up humming almost continuously. I also hum it to bike cam videos that ride leaders post up on the web.


Well that should say something about you and not them then really. If you think they are all wrong, chances are it’s actually you that’s got it wrong.


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## Racing roadkill (17 Jun 2020)

PaulSB said:


> @Racing roadkill - yes you clearly are correct. As I said it "depends on the rides you lead" - obviously yours are covered.


The ‘ride socials’ are, the guided rides aren’t until July the 4th. Guided rides are the ones officially covered by B.C. and lead by the trained ride leaders. Anyone can set up a ‘ride social’.


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## Racing roadkill (17 Jun 2020)

AndyRM said:


> Depends on how close to the door zone you're encouraged to get by the ride leader.


That depends on circumstances, and whether the vehicles are occupied, you’d know that, if you knew what you were doing, I’d have thought.


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## DCLane (17 Jun 2020)

Roger Longbottom said:


> What in God's name is a Zoom Meeting!!!



An online video meeting system. My son had a team training session tonight using it.


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## sheddy (17 Jun 2020)

A zoom meeting occurs immediately after bulk purchasing of ice lollies.


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## Mr Whyte (17 Jun 2020)

Roger Longbottom said:


> What in God's name is a Zoom Meeting!!!




It`s the in thing at the moment, even big companies are using Zoom for their meetings.


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## bikingdad90 (17 Jun 2020)

Mr Whyte said:


> It`s the in thing at the moment, even big companies are using Zoom for their meetings.


They were until the security flaws were exposed and then everyone jumped ship to Microsoft Teams or Google Hangouts or other such platforms like Gotomeeting.


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## Milkfloat (17 Jun 2020)

bikingdad90 said:


> They were until the security flaws were exposed and then everyone jumped ship to Microsoft Teams or Google Hangouts or other such platforms like Gotomeeting.


You are too far behind, they jumped back when Zoom fixed their security.


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## CanucksTraveller (17 Jun 2020)

To get back to actual cycling, what does a ride leader do if I may ask? Despite being a CTC member I've never been "led" on a group ride so I have no idea. Is it what I think it is, that the leader is really the navigator, mother duck, the person who makes sure nobody's left behind, that kind of thing? 
It surely isn't within a ride leaders purview to tell other members (I.e. people who should know how to ride a bicycle) to keep out of the door zone is it?


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## Rusty Nails (17 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> That depends on circumstances, and whether the vehicles are occupied, you’d know that, if you knew what you were doing, I’d have thought.


In a long row of parked cars how can you tell if there is a driver in them as you approach? Modern cars usually have high headrests and often have tinted/darkened side windows. Unless you are riding at less than 5mph you won't know they are occupied until you are almost on them, especially if you are in the habit of riding close to them. Even more difficult if there are vans in the parked traffic.

Safer to ride outside the door zone than be moving in and out.


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## Tom B (17 Jun 2020)

Roger Longbottom said:


> So it's a video conference with a catchy name!



And nothing to do with Fat Larry's Band.

I used it for a school governors meeting and despite a hitch in getting connected it worked really well. Impressed I was. Even peeled the sticker of the laptop webcam that I didn't know I had.

I think there has been a concerted push by the government to start getting back to normal. We've had a Whitehall shuffle around, a u-turn, an expensive paint job for a plane, and talk of talks about Brexit trade negotiations this week.

Not that BC have any connection with HMG other than Bozza being a cyclist.


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## classic33 (17 Jun 2020)

Or is it July the 4th?






Mixed messages being given out.


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## freiston (17 Jun 2020)

So I've read this thread over a couple of times and what I make of the postings in the thread is that B.C. have told ride leaders that they can lead small rides as of tomorrow - but only rides described as "ride socials", which, from what I understand, don't have leaders but have participants and any member can set one up.


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## I like Skol (17 Jun 2020)

freiston said:


> So I've read this thread over a couple of times and what I make of the postings in the thread is that B.C. have told ride leaders that they can lead small rides as of tomorrow - but only rides described as "ride socials", which, from what I understand, don't have leaders but have participants and any member can set one up.


What responsibility/liability can possibly fall on a ride leader for an activity that is legally allowed and takes place on an open, public road? Other than providing a route that is legal, surely the safety and actions of the participants is their own responsibility providing that the ride leader doesn't issue any negligent instructions (like ignore the stop lines at red lights, or ride excessively fast in the door zone, etc)?

If a ride participant isn't confident and capable to ride on the road safely independently then surely they should be directed to a different kind of ride where the leader/trainer to rider ratio is much better (i.e, 1:1 or 1:2?). A social or group ride is no place for a rider to learn roadcraft and maybe BC need to make this clear (perhaps they do?) In their ride promotion?


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## freiston (18 Jun 2020)

I like Skol said:


> What responsibility/liability can possibly fall on a ride leader for an activity that is legally allowed and takes place on an open, public road? Other than providing a route that is legal, surely the safety and actions of the participants is their own responsibility providing that the ride leader doesn't issue any negligent instructions (like ignore the stop lines at red lights, or ride excessively fast in the door zone, etc)?
> 
> If a ride participant isn't confident and capable to ride on the road safely independently then surely they should be directed to a different kind of ride where the leader/trainer to rider ratio is much better (i.e, 1:1 or 1:2?). A social or group ride is no place for a rider to learn roadcraft and maybe BC need to make this clear (perhaps they do?) In their ride promotion?


My point is that the rides in question don't have ride leaders because they're not that kind of [organised] ride - they're just a bunch of people using BC to organise and get together for a ride. It seemed to me that at least one person's interpretation of _"we are pleased to announce small HSBC UK Ride Social group rides are able to resume in England and Jersey"_ is _"B.C. telling me that I can lead small rides again"_.


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## Blue Hills (18 Jun 2020)

Drago said:


> B.C? Christ, I'd feel safer riding a pogo stick with a castor on the bottom t!han with one of their rides.


From what i recall of chris hoy's olympic team they do though finance intensive safety courses in accidentally on purpose falling off.

Will look out for this announcement with interest. I was out in essex last week and saw a local club run out. In two groups of six.


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## LeetleGreyCells (18 Jun 2020)

BC have said, "... club and coaching activity can resume from today in England (in groups of six riders and observing social distancing)," and "... Guided Rides in England will return on Saturday 4 July, to allow Ride Leaders the opportunity to access some additional training resources on leading a socially distanced ride in late-June," the aforementioned Zoom meeting.

They mentioned newly published guidance, but it looks like it's not on BC website yet.


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## Landsurfer (18 Jun 2020)

Could someone explain why I need a "leader" or the permission of BC to go cycling in a group with my friends .... as we have been throughout the latest period of chaos .....


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## LeetleGreyCells (18 Jun 2020)

Landsurfer said:


> Could someone explain why I need a "leader" or the permission of BC to go cycling in a group with my friends .... as we have been throughout the latest period of chaos .....


You don't. This is for clubs affiliated with BC and guided rides conducted under the BC banner.


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## Darius_Jedburgh (18 Jun 2020)

Landsurfer said:


> Could someone explain why I need a "leader" or the permission of BC to go cycling in a group with my friends .... as we have been throughout the latest period of chaos .....


CYA.


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## Landsurfer (18 Jun 2020)

Ok ... cool .... we're off today for a "circuit of the closed cafes" ride, incorporating the "buying food at petrol stations " cycle group, affiliated !
As usual for our group of 4 there will be 4 leaders all with just slightly different route uploads to Garmin etc to make junctions interesting ...


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## Brandane (18 Jun 2020)

I like Skol said:


> surely the safety and actions of the participants is their own responsibility providing that the ride leader doesn't issue any negligent instructions (like ignore the stop lines at red lights, or ride excessively fast in the door zone, etc)?


You forgot to mention not having a clue as to who has priority where cycle paths cross roads. I wouldn't go on a ride led by that arrogant blinkered fool if you paid me.


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## Landsurfer (18 Jun 2020)

Darius_Jedburgh said:


> CYA.


I really do live in my own warm place ..... CYA ? .... NOT A CLUE ...


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## Landsurfer (18 Jun 2020)

Brandane said:


> You forgot to mention not having a clue as to who has priority where cycle paths cross roads. I wouldn't go on a ride led by that arrogant blinkered fool if you paid me.


Who is the arrogant blinkered fool .... this is getting interesting ...


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## Brandane (18 Jun 2020)

Landsurfer said:


> I really do live in my own warm place ..... CYA ? .... NOT A CLUE ...


Cover Yer Arse, I believe.


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## Landsurfer (18 Jun 2020)

Brandane said:


> Cover Yer Arse, I believe.


AAHH .... thank you ....


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## Brandane (18 Jun 2020)

Landsurfer said:


> Who is the arrogant blinkered fool .... this is getting interesting ...


A BC ride leader, but no names mentioned as it's not allowed....


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## winjim (18 Jun 2020)

Landsurfer said:


> Could someone explain why I need a "leader" or the permission of BC to go cycling in a group with my friends .... as we have been throughout the latest period of chaos .....


You have friends who cycle? Cool, how did you meet them?


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## Landsurfer (18 Jun 2020)

winjim said:


> You have friends who cycle? Cool, how did you meet them?


By doing LEJOG with them ...... how else ...


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## LeetleGreyCells (18 Jun 2020)

I know of at least one Ride Leader replied to the post (of the same info from the email) that they would not be leading any rides yet as it's still too soon, which is their right of course. Like most people (I assume), I'm looking forward to getting back to normal, but I'm also worried about restarting activity and causing a second spike (not me personally and wholly being responsible for a second spike (I'm not that arrogant!!), but I could be contributing). Plus the more important matter of bringing the virus home to my family. 

My other concern is maintaining social distance between riders on a ride where we'd normally encourage people to ride as close together as comfortable for safety.


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## winjim (18 Jun 2020)

Landsurfer said:


> By doing LEJOG with them ...... how else ...


Ha. Might be a bit ambitious for a Sunday morning.


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## figbat (18 Jun 2020)

LeetleGreyCells said:


> My other concern is maintaining social distance between riders on a ride where we'd normally encourage people to ride as close together as comfortable for safety.


Indeed. A 2m exclusion zone means always riding in single file - there's no way you can ride two-abreast at 2m apart. So a group of 6 will be create a 'peloton' of 12m minimum. That is a recipe for car's trying to overtake and then pushing in part-way along the group. And what do you do at junctions? Effectively each person has to wait 2m back until the one ahead has gone then approach and navigate it themselves; so a 12m queue moving forward 2m at a time.

Not to mention that some sources I have read suggest that spacing for strenuous activities like cycling and running should be significantly more than 2m.

Even if you can do this, what's the point?


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## Landsurfer (18 Jun 2020)

winjim said:


> Ha. Might be a bit ambitious for a Sunday morning.


When we did our LEJOG in June/July 2018 at least 3 of our cycling group of 10 had not met until the night before we set off.. Lots of chat on the CTC website, but the night before the start at the Ponderosa campsite at Redruth was a first for the group.


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## Landsurfer (18 Jun 2020)

figbat said:


> Indeed. A 2m exclusion zone means always riding in single file - there's no way you can ride two-abreast at 2m apart. So a group of 6 will be create a 'peloton' of 12m minimum. That is a recipe for car's trying to overtake and then pushing in part-way along the group. And what do you do at junctions? Effectively each person has to wait 2m back until the one ahead has gone then approach and navigate it themselves; so a 12m queue moving forward 2m at a time.
> 
> Not to mention that some sources I have read suggest that spacing for strenuous activities like cycling and running should be significantly more than 2m.
> 
> Even if you can do this, what's the point?


You don't social distance in Aldi, ASDA and the like so why get worried about being outside on a bicycle ..... hide away if you wish but the rest of the country are getting on with it ...


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## Poacher (18 Jun 2020)

Landsurfer said:


> AAHH .... thank you ....


I'm really out of touch with all these abbreviations, but can often work them out eventually.
This one has me totally flummoxed. Please enlighten me - what does AAHH mean?


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## monkers (18 Jun 2020)

Poacher said:


> I'm really out of touch with all these abbreviations, but can often work them out eventually.
> This one has me totally flummoxed. Please enlighten me - what does AAHH mean?



AAHH = Another Abbreviation Hasn't Helped?


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## Arjimlad (18 Jun 2020)

Roger Longbottom said:


> What in God's name is a Zoom Meeting!!!



I just wanted to say how refreshing it was to read that someone, somewhere, is as unaware of Zoom as I was before the lockdown started ! 

Chapeau !


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## Darius_Jedburgh (18 Jun 2020)

Please....will someone explain Zoom?
Pretty please.


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## Phaeton (18 Jun 2020)

LeetleGreyCells said:


> My other concern is maintaining social distance between riders on a ride where we'd normally encourage people to ride as close together as comfortable for safety.


The 6 riders out on Sunday morning who passed me didn't care about social distancing, they passed me within 2ft then proceeded to ride down the road side by side in a bunch all wearing the one of the local cycling clubs jerseys & loading it up onto Strava. I found them on my Flyby.


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## Phaeton (18 Jun 2020)

Darius_Jedburgh said:


> Please....will someone explain Zoom?
> Pretty please.


It's a multiple fruit flavoured ice lolly in the shape of a space rocket from the 70's


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## AndyRM (18 Jun 2020)

Darius_Jedburgh said:


> Please....will someone explain Zoom?
> Pretty please.



Video conferencing.


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## fossyant (18 Jun 2020)

Phaeton said:


> It's a multiple fruit flavoured ice lolly in the shape of a space rocket from the 70's



No, they are still called Rocket lollies.


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## fossyant (18 Jun 2020)

Or Lolly Ice if you are scouse.


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## Phaeton (18 Jun 2020)

fossyant said:


> No, they are still called Rocket lollies.


I beg to differ


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## vickster (18 Jun 2020)

Darius_Jedburgh said:


> Please....will someone explain Zoom?
> Pretty please.


Ummm jfgi?


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## Darius_Jedburgh (18 Jun 2020)

vickster said:


> Ummm jfgi?


Thanks for your most helpful post.


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## I like Skol (18 Jun 2020)

Darius_Jedburgh said:


> Thanks for your most helpful post.


She has a point.


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## Darius_Jedburgh (18 Jun 2020)

I like Skol said:


> She has a point.


OK. Think you had a post deleted yesterday for being a bit of a ****
I'll rephrase the question...
Please explain how Zoom is better or different from all the other video conferencing facilities out there? Why is it better than say Skype?

Why is Zoom suddenly all that the tech geeks can think of?

Why is it the flavour of the month and how long before it is consigned to the great scrap heap in the sky.

Is that a reasonable enough question?


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## Blue Hills (18 Jun 2020)

Phaeton said:


> The 6 riders out on Sunday morning who passed me didn't care about social distancing, they passed me within 2ft then proceeded to ride down the road side by side in a bunch all wearing the one of the local cycling clubs jerseys & loading it up onto Strava. I found them on my Flyby.


a fair few roadies are incapable of understanding distancing at the best of times. Make a regular habit of passing ultra close and of course wouldn't consider a bell unless it was made of hollowed out carbon and flashed its bragging rights brandlogo onto the heavens. Only a matter of time before I end up knocking one off in London before they get me. Plonkers.


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## dodgy (18 Jun 2020)

Some of you are making rides with leaders sound like a 60 mile long cycling proficiency test. Think I'd rather ride solo!


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## Blue Hills (18 Jun 2020)

dodgy said:


> Some of you are making rides with leaders sound like a 60 mile long cycling proficiency test. Think I'd rather ride solo!


I used to lead plenty of rides. Never killed anyone. One or two came close to death but there was nothing I could have done about it - wouldn't have been my fault. I sleep easy.
Group social rides are great. I'm not a club racer.


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## RoMeR (18 Jun 2020)

Why is there a us & them attitude on this forum?, after all we are all cyclists no matter whether we club,tour or commute ride. We should be encouraging people to cycle, not join a particular group and criticize another group. All for one.


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## Blue Hills (18 Jun 2020)

Rmr25 said:


> Why is there a us & them attitude on this forum?, after all we are all cyclists no matter whether we club,tour or commute ride. We should be encouraging people to cycle, not join a particular group and criticize another group. All for one.


Not really aware that there is to any great degree.
Loaded up with my two large panniers for a day ride (I won't horrify you by listing the contents)I was happy to see the Shenfield club out and about last week.


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## Landsurfer (18 Jun 2020)

There's no problem with friendly disagreement .... just because someone does not agree with you doesn't make them a Nazi or a Troll .....
I like this forum .....


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## Solocle (18 Jun 2020)

figbat said:


> Indeed. A 2m exclusion zone means always riding in single file - there's no way you can ride two-abreast at 2m apart. So a group of 6 will be create a 'peloton' of 12m minimum. That is a recipe for car's trying to overtake and then pushing in part-way along the group. And what do you do at junctions? Effectively each person has to wait 2m back until the one ahead has gone then approach and navigate it themselves; so a 12m queue moving forward 2m at a time.
> 
> Not to mention that some sources I have read suggest that spacing for strenuous activities like cycling and running should be significantly more than 2m.
> 
> Even if you can do this, what's the point?


However those sources are in terms of spacing behind each other. The same effect should make it safe to be less than 2 metres abreast - droplets end up forming a sort of cone behind you. Might change up a really steep hill, though


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## ColinJ (18 Jun 2020)

Solocle said:


> However those sources are in terms of spacing behind each other. The same effect should make it safe to be less than 2 metres abreast - droplets end up forming a sort of cone behind you. Might change up a really steep hill, though


But in gusty swirling winds, the 'danger cone' would be all over the place as you and/or the wind change direction!


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## Phaeton (18 Jun 2020)

Blue Hills said:


> a fair few roadies are incapable of understanding distancing at the best of times. Make a regular habit of passing ultra close and of course wouldn't consider a bell unless it was made of hollowed out carbon and flashed its bragging rights brandlogo onto the heavens. Only a matter of time before I end up knocking one off in London before they get me. Plonkers.


It was quite funny I was approaching a wood & I could hear voices, being partially deaf I have no audio direction so did not know where the sound was coming from & thought it was from in the wood. Then I heard a voice say something about a scalp coming up, but still didn't twig what was happening & turned off the road as planned, next I heard a squeal of several brakes, a few uttered words, then 10 seconds later they came past me, I presume I had thrown their plans into disarray by turning off & not all of them got the message about turning early enough.


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## Phaeton (18 Jun 2020)

Darius_Jedburgh said:


> Why is Zoom suddenly all that the tech geeks can think of?


It's the new kid on the block, one of the problems with Skype is that using usual Merkin logic they went out on their own & made Skype unique in how it handles the media, so it is incapable with anything else so once you are committed down that road your can't easily read $$$$ get out of it. I believe although I don't use it Zoom is more standard friendly so more things can access it. Do not take this as gospel but that is my understanding.


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## I like Skol (18 Jun 2020)

I like Skol said:


> She has a point.





Darius_Jedburgh said:


> OK. Think you had a post deleted yesterday for being a bit of a ****


Wrong on both fronts I'm afraid


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## PaulSB (18 Jun 2020)

BC Update

I think it could be clearer but BC appear to have given the go ahead for club rides with groups of a maximum of six. Check the Q&A.


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## Vantage (18 Jun 2020)

I went on a BC lead ride once.
The leader turned up and after some chit chat etc asked us all to do the 'pre ride BC bike check'.
Ensure tyres are properly inflated, nuts and bolts tight, brakes working, lights worked etc. I know my bike inside out so didn't bother while everyone else bounces and rocked their bikes about. A sight to behold.
Anyhoo, a quarter of the way into the ride the ride leader asked if anyone had a pair of pliers as the slot in which the V brake noodle sits had opened up and wouldn't hold the noodle anymore = no front brake. The battery in her back light went flat also on the way home.
Nuff said.


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## snorri (18 Jun 2020)

Landsurfer said:


> You don't social distance in Aldi, ASDA and the like


Things must be bit different in your part of the world.


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## snorri (18 Jun 2020)

Darius_Jedburgh said:


> Please....will someone explain Zoom?Pretty please.


Start another thread on that topic please.


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## Phaeton (18 Jun 2020)

Vantage said:


> I went on a BC lead ride once.


I never have, but I can understand that if you are in a new area, either just moved or on holiday, or like to ride in a group then maybe they are for you


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## Milzy (18 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> I’ve just had an email from B.C. telling me that I can lead small rides again ( ride social only until July 4th )as of tomorrow. There’s a zoom meeting to explain exactly what’s what tomorrow. I’m surprised we’ve been given the green light so soon, but it’s a very welcome step back towards normality.


Thats nice. I've seen chain gangs going on for about 3 weeks.


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## LeetleGreyCells (18 Jun 2020)

PaulSB said:


> BC Update
> 
> I think it could be clearer but BC appear to have given the go ahead for club rides with groups of a maximum of six. Check the Q&A.


Interesting reading. 

It will be even more interesting leading rides. A little too vague perhaps. Knackering for the ride leader getting around socially distanced riders in single file to negotiate junctions. 

I'm also a Go Ride coach and the guidance seems far more manageable than leading rides - the guidance is a little vague in places, but by necessity, I think, depending on your coaching situation and facilities.


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## LeetleGreyCells (18 Jun 2020)

LeetleGreyCells said:


> Interesting reading.
> 
> It will be even more interesting leading rides. A little too vague perhaps. Knackering for the ride leader getting around socially distanced riders in single file to negotiate junctions.
> 
> I'm also a Go Ride coach and the guidance seems far more manageable than leading rides - the guidance is a little vague in places, but by necessity, I think, depending on your coaching situation and facilities.


On second thoughts and after chatting with our other Go Ride coach and coordinator, the coaching may be unfeasible too. Going to read the guidance again.

Thinking about Guided Rides, if leading as normal from the rear, and with a group of 5 socially-distanced riders, you would be racing over 25 metres on the wrong side of the road every time you came to a junction!


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## Landsurfer (18 Jun 2020)

snorri said:


> Things must be bit different in your part of the world.


They must be ... and the supermarkets i have visited in Stoke, Newcastle, Chesterfield, Bristol, Reading, Doncaster, Rotherham and Sheffield.. in the last 2 months ....

oops ... and Derby, Burton and Birmingham ..... The only social distancing on view was store imposed at the till.....


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## Pat "5mph" (18 Jun 2020)

Darius_Jedburgh said:


> OK. Think you had a post deleted yesterday for being a bit of a ****
> I'll rephrase the question...
> Please explain how Zoom is better or different from all the other video conferencing facilities out there? Why is it better than say Skype?
> 
> ...


*Mod Note:*
@Darius_Jedburgh please start a new thread in cafe on the Zoom topic, thank you.


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## Racing roadkill (18 Jun 2020)

I like Skol said:


> providing that the ride leader doesn't issue any negligent instructions (like ignore the stop lines at red lights, or ride excessively fast in the door zone, etc)?


If that snide comment was aimed at me, you need to get a grip. Firstly every single thing you typed there is wrong, secondly, I wasn’t leading a ride.


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## Racing roadkill (18 Jun 2020)

freiston said:


> My point is that the rides in question don't have ride leaders because they're not that kind of [organised] ride - they're just a bunch of people using BC to organise and get together for a ride. It seemed to me that at least one person's interpretation of _"we are pleased to announce small HSBC UK Ride Social group rides are able to resume in England and Jersey"_ is _"B.C. telling me that I can lead small rides again"_.


However ( and this is where the hard of understanding and the circle jerk that surrounds them fall down) I am an official ride leader, so whether or not I set it up as a ‘guided ride’ or a ‘ride social’ my purple L appears next to my name and I am leading it, as a leader.The difference is that there is no comeback, should anything untoward happen on the ‘ride social’ and in over 80 rides I’ve lead nothing has, so by issuing the first statement, they have done the second, in my case. I know it’s hard for some people to understand, but that’s your problem.


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## classic33 (18 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> However ( and this is where the hard of understanding and the circle jerk that surrounds them fall down) I am an official ride leader, so whether or not I set it up as a ‘guided ride’ or a ‘ride social’ my purple L appears next to my name and I am leading it, as a leader.The difference is that there is no comeback, should anything untoward happen on the ‘ride social’ and in over 80 rides I’ve lead nothing has, so by issuing the first statement, they have done the second, in my case. I know it’s hard for some people to understand, but that’s your problem.


It's more about getting "your purple "L" next to your name" than the ride, and those taking part in it then?

If that's the case, I'd be questioning the actual reason for the "organised ride".


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## Racing roadkill (18 Jun 2020)

LeetleGreyCells said:


> Thinking about Guided Rides, if leading as normal from the rear, and with a group of 5 socially-distanced riders, you would be racing over 25 metres on the wrong side of the road every time you came to a junction!


Yes. That’s assuming there aren’t other leaders involved. The worst ones are where you are the solo leader and have to sprint like mad from the back to cover the junctions, let everyone pass, keep the elastic together, rinse and repeat, whilst simultaneously keeping the riders at the front from getting too far ahead, and not knackering the riders at the back out. I see it as good interval training.


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## freiston (18 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> However ( and this is where the hard of understanding and the circle jerk that surrounds them fall down) I am an official ride leader, so whether or not I set it up as a ‘guided ride’ or a ‘ride social’ my purple L appears next to my name. The difference is that there is no comeback, should anything untoward happen on the ride and in over 80 rides I’ve lead nothing has. So by issuing the first statement, they have done the second, in my case. I know it’s hard for some people to understand, but that’s your problem.


You said "I’ve just had an email from B.C. telling me that I can lead small rides again". Ride Socials are not leaded [edit: "led"] - ergo you are not an official ride leader on those rides even if you have the BC accreditation of "Ride Leader" that lets you officially lead other rides. The screenshot of the email that you provided did not say anything about leading such rides - it said they [Ride Social group rides] are able to resume. Any problem with understanding is yours - you are bigging up your importance.


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## Phaeton (18 Jun 2020)

freiston said:


> You said "I’ve just had an email from B.C. telling me that I can lead small rides again". Ride Socials are not leaded [edit: "led"] - ergo you are not an official ride leader on those rides even if you have the BC accreditation of "Ride Leader" that lets you officially lead other rides. The screenshot of the email that you provided did not say anything about leading such rides - it said they [Ride Social group rides] are able to resume. Any problem with understanding is yours - you are bigging up your importance impotence.


FTFY


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## Ming the Merciless (18 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> I set it up as a ‘guided ride’ or a ‘ride social’ my purple L appears next to my name



Is that like a British Cycling version of L plates for learner drivers?


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## freiston (18 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> However ( and this is where the hard of understanding and the circle jerk that surrounds them fall down) I am an official ride leader, so whether or not I set it up as a ‘guided ride’ or a ‘ride social’ my purple L appears next to my name and I am leading it, as a leader.The difference is that there is no comeback, should anything untoward happen on the ‘ride social’ and in over 80 rides I’ve lead nothing has, so by issuing the first statement, they have done the second, in my case. I know it’s hard for some people to understand, but that’s your problem.


Doesn't the Ride social ride page list participants only and not list any specific ride leaders for that ride?


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## Racing roadkill (18 Jun 2020)

classic33 said:


> It's more about getting "your purple "L" next to your name" than the ride, and those taking part in it then?
> 
> If that's the case, I'd be questioning the actual reason for the "organised ride".


No, that’s not it at all. I can’t help the purple L, that’s an automatic functIon of the system. The point is that if a trained leader sets up a ‘ride social’ and a ‘guided ride’ there’s little difference, other than the accountability of BC for anything happening on the ride. I prefer setting up ride socials, because they are less hassle.


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## winjim (18 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> However ( and this is where the hard of understanding and the circle jerk that surrounds them fall down) I am an official ride leader, so whether or not I set it up as a ‘guided ride’ or a ‘ride social’ my purple L appears next to my name and I am leading it, as a leader.The difference is that there is no comeback, should anything untoward happen on the ‘ride social’ and in over 80 rides I’ve lead nothing has, so by issuing the first statement, they have done the second, in my case. I know it’s hard for some people to understand, but that’s your problem.


Do BC know that this is how you are representing their brand?


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## Racing roadkill (18 Jun 2020)

freiston said:


> Doesn't the Ride social ride page list participants only and not list any specific ride leaders for that ride?


The ride leaders appear as participants, but with a purple L next to their name, on a ride Social. On a guided ride, they are separated, from the participants.


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## Racing roadkill (18 Jun 2020)

winjim said:


> Do BC know that this is how you are representing their brand?


Yes, what’s your problem?


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## winjim (18 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> Yes, what’s your problem?


Just that if they know that this is how you engage with people as one of their representatives, then I must get around to cancelling my membership.


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## freiston (18 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> The ride leaders appear as participants, but with a purple L next to their name, on a ride Social. On a guided ride, they are separated, from the participants.


Please understand that the reason they appears as participants and not listed as ride leaders is because they are not leading the ride. On a guided ride, there may be riders with the leader accreditation who are not leading the ride and also appear as participants _and_ have an "L" next to their name - having the ride leader accreditation does not make them a ride leader on every ride de facto.


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## Racing roadkill (18 Jun 2020)

winjim said:


> Just that if they know that this is how you engage with people as one of their representatives, then I must get around to cancelling my membership.


You can do what you like.


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## classic33 (18 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> No, that’s not it at all. I can’t help the purple L, that’s an automatic functIon of the system. The point is that if a trained leader sets up a ‘ride social’ and a ‘guided ride’ there’s little difference, other than the accountability of BC for anything happening on the ride. I prefer setting up ride socials, because they are less hassle.


Why isn't the "ride leader" accountable for what happens on their ride?

I take a group walking and anything happens, I'm accountable. Especially if I organised it. The same with most outdoor group activities.


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## snorri (18 Jun 2020)

After many years of cycling unaccompanied during which I had become a competent roadmap reader, I was encouraged to do a few group rides. This thread reminds me of why my group rides phase was brief.


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## Racing roadkill (18 Jun 2020)

freiston said:


> Please understand that the reason they appears as participants and not listed as ride leaders is because they are not leading the ride. On a guided ride, there may be riders with the leader accreditation who are not leading the ride and also appear as participants _and_ have an "L" next to their name - having the ride leader accreditation does not make them a ride leader on every ride de facto.


You’re not getting it are you? Only accredited ride leaders get the purple L on a ride social. If anyone who isn’t also an accredited ride leader sets up a ride social, they don’t get a purple L next to their name. So anyone can set up a ‘ride social’ but only accredited ride leaders who set up ride socials get the ‘leader / purple L’ leader designation.


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## Racing roadkill (18 Jun 2020)

snorri said:


> After many years of cycling unaccompanied during which I had become a competent roadmap reader, I was encouraged to do a few group rides. This thread reminds me of why my group rides phase was brief.


Good for you. Fortunately, there are going to be a lot of novices, looking for a way to get riding, who will sign up to group rides. It’s going to be a busy few months ahead I think.


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## freiston (18 Jun 2020)

classic33 said:


> Why isn't the "ride leader" accountable for what happens on their ride?
> 
> I take a group walking and anything happens, I'm accountable. Especially if I organised it. The same with most outdoor group activities.


Short answer is that they are no more and no less accountable than anyone else because they are not "ride leaders" on Ride Social group rides - everyone is a participant and Let's Ride are only facilitating the organising of a group of individuals going on a ride together.

In BC's own words:

_"There's no membership fee, no club rules and we're all passionate about getting the miles in._​​_Use the ride finder to explore existing rides nearby, or reach out to a friendly local group and share the miles together._​​_If you want to organise a ride, simply join for free to get started."_​


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## Racing roadkill (18 Jun 2020)

classic33 said:


> Why isn't the "ride leader" accountable for what happens on their ride?
> 
> I take a group walking and anything happens, I'm accountable. Especially if I organised it. The same with most outdoor group activities.


The ride leader is accountable, but B.C. aren’t, on a ride social. It’s a facility that anyone can use to set up a ride, that piggy backs the B.C. system. On a guided ride, B.C. do take responsibility for what happens on the ride, hence the extra rules / regs / hassle involved in a Guided ride. The guided rides routes have to be risk assessed, and those assessments are on file, and there are strict distance / duration / terrain restrictions, dependant on which ‘training level‘ the leader(s) have.


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## freiston (18 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> You’re not getting it are you? Only accredited ride leaders get the purple L on a ride social. If anyone who isn’t also an accredited ride leader sets up a ride social, they don’t get a purple L next to their name. So anyone can set up a ‘ride social’ but only accredited ride leaders who set up ride socials get the ‘leader / purple L’ leader designation.



You are the one who isn't getting it - what you've just said does not contradict what I said except for one small detail - _"only accredited ride leaders who set up ride socials get the ‘leader / purple L’ leader designation"_ - accredited ride leaders get the "L" whether they set up the ride or not - it's like a badge letting you know they're accredited - it is not an indication that they are leading that particular ride - leading a particular ride is indicated by being listed as a leader and not as a participant.


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## Racing roadkill (18 Jun 2020)

freiston said:


> Short answer is that they are no more and no less accountable than anyone else because they are not "ride leaders" on Ride Social group rides - everyone is a participant and Let's Ride are only facilitating the organising of a group of individuals going on a ride together.
> 
> In BC's own words:
> 
> _"There's no membership fee, no club rules and we're all passionate about getting the miles in._​​_Use the ride finder to explore existing rides nearby, or reach out to a friendly local group and share the miles together._​​_If you want to organise a ride, simply join for free to get started."_​


You’re still not getting it are you? Anyone can set up a ‘ride social’ only accredited leaders can set up a ‘guided ride’ if an accredited leader sets up a ‘ride social’ they are automatically assigned a leader role, if anyone who isn’t accredited sets up a ‘ride social’ they don’t get assigned the leader role.


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## Racing roadkill (18 Jun 2020)

freiston said:


> You are the one who isn't getting it - what you've just said does not contradict what I said except for one small detail - _"only accredited ride leaders who set up ride socials get the ‘leader / purple L’ leader designation"_ - accredited ride leaders get the "L" whether they set up the ride or not - it's like a badge letting you know they're accredited - it is not an indication that they are leading that particular ride - leading a particular ride is indicated by being listed as a leader and not as a participant.


No, the complete segregation / differentiation only occurs on guided rides. On ride socials the only differentiation is the purple L next to any participant(s) who are also accredited ride leaders.


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## freiston (18 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> You’re still not getting it are you? Anyone can set up a ‘ride social’ only accredited leaders can set up a ‘guided ride’ if an accredited leader sets up a ‘ride social’ they are automatically assigned a leader role, if anyone who isn’t accredited sets up a ‘ride social’ they don’t get assigned the leader role.


FFS!
Nothing you have said in that post contradicts anything that I have said [Edit - accredited ride leaders are never automatically assigned a leader role on a Ride Social]. If an accredited ride leader sets up a guided ride they are the ride leader for that ride - in the riders list, they are listed separately as a ride leader. An accredited ride leader can sign up as a participant for a guided ride set up and led by another accredited ride leader. They will still have the "L" next to their name but they will be listed as a participant - not as a ride leader. Having the "L" next to your name does not automatically make you a ride leader on every ride you sign up for and certainly doesn't make you a ride leader on a Ride Social even if you set it up - because they are effectively leaderless.

EDIT:
Here's what I mean - there is an accredited ride leader on a guided ride and she has an "L" next to her name but she is signed up for the ride as a participant - not as a ride leader and not as an assistant leader - the "L" denotes her accreditation but her listing as a participant and not a leader shows that she is not a ride leader on that ride.


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## Dave Davenport (18 Jun 2020)

I really don't know why any of you bother, RR has only one view; he's 100% right about everything .You can present all the counter arguments and evidence you want on any subject and he'll still firmly believe that it's the rest of the world that's wrong. Combined with the desperate need for attention and self validation it's quite sad really.


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## Mr Whyte (18 Jun 2020)

Dave Davenport said:


> I really don't know why any of you bother, RR has only one view; he's 100% right about everything .You can present all the counter arguments and evidence you want on any subject and he'll still firmly believe that it's the rest of the world that's wrong. Combined with the desperate need for attention and self validation it's quite sad really.




I find some folk who are new to photography on a site I`m a member of, they ask advice you give it and then they go and do it a total different way.


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## I like Skol (18 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> Yes. That’s assuming there aren’t other leaders involved. The worst ones are where you are the solo leader and have to sprint like mad from the back to cover the junctions, let everyone pass, keep the elastic together, rinse and repeat, whilst simultaneously keeping the riders at the front from getting too far ahead, and not knackering the riders at the back out. *I see it as good interval training.*


I see it as negligent risk taking, irresponsibility and giving possibly naive and inexperienced riders a dangerous false sense of security by leading them to believe they are in the care of a competent, expert, trained ride guide! There is no way a single guide/leader can safely manage a random group of untrained cyclists of more than 3 or possibly 4 at a maximum, no matter how good they think they are.
To undertake such a challenge is madness and to be faced with such a situation (either through oversubscription or due to guides/leaders failing to show up) and still go ahead with the ride demonstrates poor risk assessment, decision making and weakness. Should the worst happen and said ride leader ended up in court, they would be pretty much defenceless purely for allowing the ride to go ahead. A sensible person with any balls would have rightly cancelled the ride unless they could reduce the number of riders to a controllable level or enlisted the help of a fellow guide/leader.


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## classic33 (18 Jun 2020)

Roger Longbottom said:


> What I can't comprehend is why people need someone to take them on a ride.
> Can't they just get on their bike and go and ride for themselves? It's not hard is it?
> It really is beyond me!


If you're new to an area, it's one way of finding out what's in the area. 
Other than that...


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## itboffin (18 Jun 2020)

I don’t want to add to any “personal” tensions in this thread but yes club riding in groups of up to six has now been approved by BC and Gov I have no doubt this was because of last weeks BC zoom meeting for club officials where over 300 club chairman and committee members top poll results asked when can we ride again in small groups, whilst bojo said at least a week ago that outside gatherings of small numbers are allowed having sanctioned club rides covered by BC insurance is vital and I’m glad they’ve listened to the members.

As I said in the meeting we’ve extended club membership to cover 2020 into 2021 for the services we’ve not provided our members and we will be running refresher sessions for group riding and social distancing, unlike the club ride I saw last Saturday riding in tight formation shoulder to shoulder in full club kit.


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## itboffin (19 Jun 2020)

classic33 said:


> If you're new to an area, it's one way of finding out what's in the area.
> Other than that...



Agree with classic33 I rode alone for 10 years and tended to head east towards the hills and Berks/Hants border even though I live in Windshire, once I finally plucked up the courage to attend a local club ride I’ve discovered so many more routes and a lot more of the West Country not to mention making a lot of new friends.

Sadly I also discovered that I’m very slow ☺️


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## I like Skol (19 Jun 2020)

Roger Longbottom said:


> What I can't comprehend is why people need someone to take them on a ride.
> Can't they just get on their bike and go and ride for themselves? It's not hard is it?
> It really is beyond me!


Yes, but.....
Some people like the social aspect of a group ride. Some like to meet new people. Others may be seeking inspiration for new places to ride or may be new to an area and unsure of good destinations. They may be wanting to ride longer distances than normal but are not confident to do so on their own? There are a multitude of reasons to join a group ride, it's one of the things that make forum rides a success.
I do not consider myself to be particularly sociable but I still really enjoy the atmosphere of a good forum group ride, but these only have a leader in as much as one person plans and knows the route. Other than that it is just a collection of like minded and friendly cyclists that have chosen to go for a ride together


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## Blue Hills (19 Jun 2020)

snorri said:


> After many years of cycling unaccompanied during which I had become a competent roadmap reader, I was encouraged to do a few group rides. This thread reminds me of why my group rides phase was brief.


Maybe find some less "full on" rides. I've been on loads of rides (london cycling campaign local group, ctc, cyclechat, friday coast rides) enjoyed them all. Also used to lead loads of local lcc rides. There's lots of nice rides around. And nice folk - even the ones with maybe dodgy tendencies tend to chill with a few endorphins. Maybe best to avoid the current affairs weekly rides though - i hear the stops can turn into bunfights.


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## Blue Hills (19 Jun 2020)

Roger Longbottom said:


> What I can't comprehend is why people need someone to take them on a ride.
> Can't they just get on their bike and go and ride for themselves? It's not hard is it?
> It really is beyond me!


Well your choice roger, but maybe they like discovering new byways that some folk have discovered/researched, and like socialising. Folks are different. What I Really don',t understand is folks paying to go on a bike ride.


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## Brandane (19 Jun 2020)

I like Skol said:


> Other than that it is just a collection of like minded and friendly cyclists that have chosen to go for a ride together


Like minded? If I ever become minded like the OP, please shoot me.
It actually concerns me a bit that he is an accredited BC ride leader, to the point that I was thinking about firing off an email to them with links to this thread and a number of others pointing out his dangerous lack of roadcraft and general attitude. But would they listen to the reason why I won't be renewing my £40 membership and probably jumping ship to the opposition? Maybe a waste of time.


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## Phaeton (19 Jun 2020)

Blue Hills said:


> Well your choice roger, but maybe they like discovering new byways that some folk have discovered/researched, and like socialising. Folks are different. What I Really don',t understand is folks paying to go on a bike ride.


I'll be honest I haven't partly as I'm a tight wad, but if I was going on holiday & saw a MTB social ride advertised, that somebody had taken the time to prepare around an area I didn't know, then I might consider throwing a few shekels in to go along.


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## Racing roadkill (19 Jun 2020)

freiston said:


> FFS!
> Nothing you have said in that post contradicts anything that I have said [Edit - accredited ride leaders are never automatically assigned a leader role on a Ride Social]. If an accredited ride leader sets up a guided ride they are the ride leader for that ride - in the riders list, they are listed separately as a ride leader. An accredited ride leader can sign up as a participant for a guided ride set up and led by another accredited ride leader. They will still have the "L" next to their name but they will be listed as a participant - not as a ride leader. Having the "L" next to your name does not automatically make you a ride leader on every ride you sign up for and certainly doesn't make you a ride leader on a Ride Social even if you set it up - because they are effectively leaderless.
> 
> EDIT:
> ...


At last you’ve ( sort of ) got it. On a ride social that ride leader is still an accredited leader, and still gets the L, just not an official separate bit. But they are still leading the ride. I was one of the original leaders who were asked to trial the ride social idea, the key difference used to be that we didn’t get paid to do ride socials, and we did get paid to do guided rides. We now don’t get paid to do either, so getting paid or not used to be the only real difference, now there essentially is no difference, if an accredited leader sets up a ride social or guided ride ( other than the restrictions on size of group / leader to participant ratio / risk assessment and route distance / terrain ). Clearly you don’t understand, so don’t tire yourself out trying to explain it to me ( a very experienced Accredited ride leader, with many years, and rides under his belt).


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## I like Skol (19 Jun 2020)

Things appeared to have calmed down quite nicely in the last week or two and I had hoped it would remain so but, it looks like we’re getting back to normal a bit quicker than I thought.


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## Landsurfer (19 Jun 2020)

I still don't get the Leader thing ..... why do you need a Leader ....


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## figbat (19 Jun 2020)

itboffin said:


> ...club riding in groups of up to six has now been approved by BC and Gov...


Yes, but even BC acknowledge that there are ongoing risks of cycling in groups of 6:



> While the Government guidance now permits groups of up to six to ride together, British Cycling believes that the need to maintain a two-metre distance while riding as a group of six may present practical difficulties and potential risks. For this reason, in some environments we would encourage riders to continue to cycle in smaller groups at present, and only ride in a group of six if they are absolutely sure that it is safe to do so.


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## Phaeton (19 Jun 2020)

Landsurfer said:


> I still don't get the Leader thing ..... why do you need a Leader ....


To follow?


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## Landsurfer (19 Jun 2020)

figbat said:


> Yes, but even BC acknowledge that there are ongoing risks of cycling in groups of 6:


Which is the higher risk;
C-19 or cycling on the roads ?
C-19 risk ... death, illness, a sniffle, no effect.
Cycling ... Death by ; HGV's, white vans, potholes, Chelsea tractors. Injury by the same. Positive health effect.
We are back to the Life is Risky reality ......
And i ride a motorbike as well ...


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## Phaeton (19 Jun 2020)

Landsurfer said:


> And i ride a motorbike as well ...


Shame on you


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## dodgy (19 Jun 2020)

Whatever BC have ‘allowed / endorsed’ I’ll still ride solo. I just find it mad that people claim they’re doing a ‘socially distanced group ride’. It simply isn’t possible, if it is, you’re not in a group.


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## Racing roadkill (19 Jun 2020)

Roger Longbottom said:


> What I can't comprehend is why people need someone to take them on a ride.
> Can't they just get on their bike and go and ride for themselves? It's not hard is it?
> It really is beyond me!


I guess you’ve never been on a B.C. guided ride then. If it’s done properly ( and admittedly some aren’t ) the leaders will work as a team to keep the group moving, and no one will be waiting at junctions, and so on and so forth. If the leaders are really good, the ride will get round the route, and only have stopped to allow re grouping if anyone has dropped off ( probably on an upward bit of the route, when some people get off and walk, and it’s not practical to slow the entire group down that much ) or needs a rest, or at the planned stop points. If anyone does start to drop off, on the bulk of a route, they should get the groups pace backed off, so that it’s riding at the pace of the slowest rider(s). There are also signals used ( if it’s a multi leader ride ) that indicate to one of the leaders from the pack, when to sprint ahead to an up coming junction and try and ensure that the group can pass through without having to stop. That leader then waits for every one to pass through, and joins the back, and gets a ‘dynamic rest’ whilst the previous ‘rear gunner’ moves to the middle / front ( depending on how many leaders / group size ) and becomes the next ‘junction sprinter’. Then the middle and rear leaders swap roles sequentially, whilst the leader who’s route it is, or has been designated ‘mother goose’ remains at the front. If there are only 2 leaders, then the front leader and rear leader take turns in being signaller and junction sprinter, and if it’s a solo ride leader, they have to do everything themselves, sitting at the back for the most part, sprinting ahead and getting the junctions dealt with, then sitting at the back again, unless there’s anything potentially tricky on the route that requires them to be leading at the front of the pack. All the routes should be reccy’d, and risk assessed, and assigned a difficulty / suitability rating, according to B.C. criteria. These are the key difference between what we do, and what the majority of ‘club rides’ do. We are properly trained and experienced, I’ve personally yet to find a ‘club’ that does it ‘properly’ indeed from having experienced a few ‘clubs’ rides, I see what would put people off.


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## Racing roadkill (19 Jun 2020)

dodgy said:


> Whatever BC have ‘allowed / endorsed’ I’ll still ride solo. I just find it mad that people claim they’re doing a ‘socially distanced group ride’. It simply isn’t possible, if it is, you’re not in a group.


That I do agree with.


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## Phaeton (19 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> I guess you’ve never been on a B.C. guided ride then. If it’s done properly ( and admittedly some aren’t ) the leaders will work as a team to keep the group moving, and no one will be waiting at junctions, and so on and so forth. If the leaders are really good, the ride will get round the route, and only have stopped to allow re grouping if anyone has dropped off ( probably on an upward bit of the route, when some people get off and walk, and it’s not practical to slow the entire group down that much ) or needs a rest, or at the planned stop points. If anyone does start to drop off, on the bulk of a route, they should get the groups pace backed off, so that it’s riding at the pace of the slowest rider(s). There are also signals used ( if it’s a multi leader ride ) that indicate to one of the leaders from the pack, when to sprint ahead to an up coming junction and try and ensure that the group can pass through without having to stop. That leader then waits for every one to pass through, and joins the back, and gets a ‘dynamic rest’ whilst the previous ‘rear gunner’ moves to the middle / front ( depending on how many leaders / group size ) and becomes the next ‘junction sprinter’. Then the middle and rear leaders swap roles sequentially, whilst the leader who’s route it is, or has been designated ‘mother goose’ remains at the front. If there are only 2 leaders, then the front leader and rear leader take turns in being signaller and junction sprinter, and if it’s a solo ride leader, they have to do everything themselves, sitting at the back for the most part, sprinting ahead and getting the junctions dealt with, then sitting at the back again, unless there’s anything potentially tricky on the route that requires them to be leading at the front of the pack. All the routes should be reccy’d, and risk assessed, and assigned a difficulty / suitability rating, according to B.C. criteria. These are the key difference between what we do, and what the majority of ‘club rides’ do. We are properly trained and experienced, I’ve personally yet to find a ‘club’ that does it ‘properly’ indeed from having experienced a few ‘clubs’ rides, I see what would put people off.


THAT^^^^^ does not sound like a social ride


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## Drago (19 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> Well that should say something about you and not them then really. If you think they are all wrong, chances are it’s actually you that’s got it wrong.


Is that the best you can do? Their ride leaders, and CUK's, are derided in the professional cycling and training community (not the professional sporting community, their skills and knowledge are of no relevance to riding in public). Some years back ACPO looked at using BC for training, and very, very quickly dropped the plan after looking at it. Having ridden with them and seen what their laughingly call their training, their poor discipline, lack of adherence to their own safety drills, internal political interfence in both development of the syllabus and delivery, and questionable roadcraft, neither I or most other professional trainers will ride in groups with them because they're considered too much of a liability. With the greatest of respect, I've seen some of your videos, and that hardly does them any credit. the implausible leader-rider ratio alone is enough to put professional trainers off of coming out to play with them. 

Mini D has Bikeability at school in the next school year, virus permitting. That is to say, she won't be doing Bikeability - she'll be taught properly.

A question, a chance for you to show us how brilliant BC (or CUK, if any of their ride leaders are reading this) are. Having safely stopped and dismounted, what is the first thing you should do? Well, several things, but I'll be surprised and deliriously happy if you get any one of them.


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## Racing roadkill (19 Jun 2020)

I like Skol said:


> I see it as negligent risk taking, irresponsibility and giving possibly naive and inexperienced riders a dangerous false sense of security






I like Skol said:


> by leading them to believe they are in the care of a competent, expert, trained ride guide!


They are.


I like Skol said:


> There is no way a single guide/leader can safely manage a random group of untrained cyclists of more than 3 or possibly 4 at a maximum, no matter how good they think they are.


Thats right, hence the rigid ‘leader to rider quotient’ on a ‘guided rideit’s 1 leader to 8 riders ( it used to be 1 to 10).


I like Skol said:


> To undertake such a challenge is madness and to be faced with such a situation (either through oversubscription or due to guides/leaders failing to show up) and still go ahead with the ride demonstrates poor risk assessment, decision making and weakness.


Which is why it’s leaders prerogative when the numbers / splits are known, whether it’s safe to proceed. If it’s not safe, we don’t go. If that means disappointing anyone, so be it. Safety first.



I like Skol said:


> Should the worst happen and said ride leader ended up in court, they would be pretty much defenceless purely for allowing the ride to go ahead.


which is why things are done the way they are. In all of my many years doing this, and many rides / thousands of miles, nothing has happened on any rides lead by me.


I like Skol said:


> A sensible person with any balls would have rightly cancelled the ride unless they could reduce the number of riders to a controllable level or enlisted the help of a fellow guide/leader.


That’s right, and that’s exactly what happens.


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## fossyant (19 Jun 2020)

Landsurfer said:


> I still don't get the Leader thing ..... why do you need a Leader ....



If it's organised, you need the benefit of 'insurance' - it's litigation. A mate of mine runs MTB ride socials, so he's strictly not a leader, but two of the lads on the rides are accredited MTB leaders, one is a coach. If it was just 'mates' then you don't need the backing of BC, but if you are advertising a ride, and random folk turn up then you are going to need the BC cover. There is usually a disclaimer that is completed if people haven't officially registered with BC.

We have had people turn up on unsuitable bikes when it says 'MTB only' - some folk think their hybrid is a MTB. And the other issue is skill level, people don't think. we had 3 folk turn up on e-MTB's but they'd never really gone off road - canal paths were it. That was frustrating as they couldn't handle any descents nor keep up with us 'analogue' riders going up hill (PS we did wait). *Folk just don't read the bit where it says 'challenging ride, good quality MTB only', experienced rider.*

We've also had a few broken bones - fairly minor, ankle fracture on someone out of their skill level and an experienced MTB'er splitting her kneecap - she completed the ride and only realised next day when her knee was like a balloon.


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## Racing roadkill (19 Jun 2020)

Phaeton said:


> THAT^^^^^ does not sound like a social ride


It isn’t (for the leaders) it should feel like a social ride (regardless of conditions) for the participants. If it’s been done properly, the participants won’t notice the technical bits ( except for safety calls ) and have got round a route in a hassle and stress free way they couldn’t under normal circumstances. Admittedly, the skill and experience levels of some leaders can be variable, but if they’re too crap, they wouldn’t be doing it.


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## Drago (19 Jun 2020)

I've 10 million of cover for leading and training up to 4 riders, 6 with a qualified safety officer as my second. Any more than that is simply uncontrollable. Watching the Bikeability lot with the numbers of children they are expected to manage safely is frightening.


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## Racing roadkill (19 Jun 2020)

fossyant said:


> If it's organised, you need the benefit of 'insurance' - it's litigation. A mate of mine runs MTB ride socials, so he's strictly not a leader, but two of the lads on the rides are accredited MTB leaders, one is a coach. If it was just 'mates' then you don't need the backing of BC, but if you are advertising a ride, and random folk turn up then you are going to need the BC cover. There is usually a disclaimer that is completed if people haven't officially registered with BC.
> 
> We have had people turn up on unsuitable bikes when it says 'MTB only' - some folk think their hybrid is a MTB. And the other issue is skill level, people don't think. we had 3 folk turn up on e-MTB's but they'd never really gone off road - canal paths were it. That was frustrating as they couldn't handle any descents nor keep up with us 'analogue' riders going up hill (PS we did wait). *Folk just don't read the bit where it says 'challenging ride, good quality MTB only', experienced rider.*
> 
> We've also had a few broken bones - fairly minor, ankle fracture on someone out of their skill level and an experienced MTB'er splitting her kneecap - she completed the ride and only realised next day when her knee was like a balloon.


That’s a fair assessment of what happens, and why good leadership skills are required, to get a successful ride completed.


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## Racing roadkill (19 Jun 2020)

Drago said:


> I've 10 million of cover for leading and training up to 4 riders, 6 with a qualified safety officer as my second. Any more than that is simply uncontrollable. Watching the Bikeability lot with the numbers of children they are expected to manage safely is frightening.


If the leaders / course creators have done their job properly, it’s not uncontrollable with a 1 to 8 ratio. It can be a challenge, and that’s where skill and experience come in. If it starts to look like it’s getting too risky, everyone stops, words of encouragement and guidance are given, then it continues, and foreshortened if needs be.


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## Brandane (19 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> I guess you’ve never been on a B.C. guided ride then. If it’s done properly ( and admittedly some aren’t ) the leaders will work as a team to keep the group moving, and no one will be waiting at junctions, and so on and so forth. If the leaders are really good, the ride will get round the route, and only have stopped to allow re grouping if anyone has dropped off ( probably on an upward bit of the route, when some people get off and walk, and it’s not practical to slow the entire group down that much ) or needs a rest, or at the planned stop points. If anyone does start to drop off, on the bulk of a route, they should get the groups pace backed off, so that it’s riding at the pace of the slowest rider(s). There are also signals used ( if it’s a multi leader ride ) that indicate to one of the leaders from the pack, when to sprint ahead to an up coming junction and try and ensure that the group can pass through without having to stop. That leader then waits for every one to pass through, and joins the back, and gets a ‘dynamic rest’ whilst the previous ‘rear gunner’ moves to the middle / front ( depending on how many leaders / group size ) and becomes the next ‘junction sprinter’. Then the middle and rear leaders swap roles sequentially, whilst the leader who’s route it is, or has been designated ‘mother goose’ remains at the front. If there are only 2 leaders, then the front leader and rear leader take turns in being signaller and junction sprinter, and if it’s a solo ride leader, they have to do everything themselves, sitting at the back for the most part, sprinting ahead and getting the junctions dealt with, then sitting at the back again, unless there’s anything potentially tricky on the route that requires them to be leading at the front of the pack. All the routes should be reccy’d, and risk assessed, and assigned a difficulty / suitability rating, according to B.C. criteria. These are the key difference between what we do, and what the majority of ‘club rides’ do. We are properly trained and experienced, I’ve personally yet to find a ‘club’ that does it ‘properly’ indeed from having experienced a few ‘clubs’ rides, I see what would put people off.


WTF? Talk about over complicating something as simple as a bike ride! Anyone who rides a bike and goes on one of these "social rides" should be capable of dealing with a junction without someone holding their hand. If marking junctions is really necessary for navigation purposes in the event of a large ride getting strung out, then why not use the motorbike "marker" method whereby you have a ride leader who stays at the front, and a tail end charlie bringing up the rear. At each junction, the person behind the leader stays and "marks" the junction if required by the leader, and waits until tail end charlie comes along. Marker then joins the ride ahead of tail end charlie and can then make there way back towards the front if they so desire. Meantime, next rider behind the leader marks the next junction, and so on....


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## dodgy (19 Jun 2020)

Blimey, us cyclists know how to take the fun out of a bike ride don't we!?

We used to joke years ago about how clubs are formed, at first it's a few mates who enjoy each other's company. One day, Fred invites Trevor from accounts to come along, all is well. Then Trevor invites Paul from HR, all is well. Then one day someone turns up with a clipboard, before we know it there's a Chairman and secretary and we're now a club and that's when the fun gets sucked out of it.


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## Drago (19 Jun 2020)

Brandane is correct. They won't be out with me unless their skills have been assessed, or they are known to me and I already have knowledge of their abilities. The live environment is not the place to discover someone is dangerously lacking. What kind or ride leader simply rolls up to a meeting point in a car park and rides off in public with a group of riders they've never met or assessed?

1 to 8 is uncontrollable. For a start, the human brain has only 7 memory registers, so when monitoring safety critical functions cannot effectively manage more than 7 pieces of datum simultaneously. 4 is the safe and effective limit for one leader/instructor, 6 with a qualified safety officer (who will also be FAST aid and trauma management trained, essentially the same level as an NHS first repsonder)


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## Brandane (19 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> Clearly you don’t understand, so don’t tire yourself out trying to explain it to me ( a very experienced Accredited ride leader, with many years, and rides under his belt).



Normally this one is reserved for our @Drago , who really IS awesome, obviously ; but for the above post have this......







All those wonderful qualifications, and so much experience - yet you still don't understand just how much THAT video (now deleted, unsurprisingly) of your altercation with the Sainsbury's van completely and utterly destroyed any credibility you might have had. The one about ASL's and you crossing the stop line didn't help much either. How can YOU lead ANY bike ride when you clearly fail to understand the basics of the Highway Code?


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## I like Skol (19 Jun 2020)

Drago said:


> Having safely stopped and dismounted, what is the first thing you should do?


Check your trousers haven't fallen down again?


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## Drago (19 Jun 2020)

I like Skol said:


> Check your trousers haven't fallen down again?


Damn, you're good!



Brandane said:


> Normally this one is reserved for our @Drago , who really IS awesome, obviously ; but for the above post have this......
> 
> View attachment 530912


I am awesome - I don't charge SAR teams for training and pay my own expenses for working with them. On the rarer occasions these days I do Trumpton, NHS or Dibble I invoice them, on the basis that Boris can afford it.

It's all up in the air until at least October, which is when I've the 3 day course to renew my ticket - It was due in April, but MIAS extended it beause of the virus, but no one is wanting professional level training at the moment anyway (i've not failed a requal since I started in 2008, so I'm pretty confident I'll get another 2 years).

To be honest, I don't really mention it often outside of the circle of associates who are fellow instructors. I only trot it out when amateur BC and CUK ride leaders, who may have done as much as 16 hours of training(!), start believing their own guff.


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## matticus (19 Jun 2020)

Roger Longbottom said:


> What I can't comprehend is why people need someone to take them on a ride.
> Can't they just get on their bike and go and ride for themselves? It's not hard is it?
> It really is beyond me!


Some people pay for dancing lessons. That's something I've been doing since before I could solve quadratic equations, mostly unsupervised.


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## Racing roadkill (19 Jun 2020)

Drago said:


> Brandane is correct. They won't be out with me unless their skills have been assessed, or they are known to me and I already have knowledge of their abilities. The live environment is not the place to discover someone is dangerously lacking. What kind or ride leader simply rolls up to a meeting point in a car park and rides off in public with a group of riders they've never met or assessed?
> 
> 1 to 8 is uncontrollable. For a start, the human brain has only 7 memory registers, so when monitoring safety critical functions cannot effectively manage more than 7 pieces of datum simultaneously. 4 is the safe and effective limit for one leader/instructor, 6 with a qualified safety officer (who will also be FAST aid and trauma management trained, essentially the same level as an NHS first repsonder)


This is why certain controls are put in place. Ride suitability criteria are assigned, the routes are designed and assessed with this in mind, and from experience, usually the right sort of riders turn up to the right sort of ride. People with little or no experience turn up to “easy going” routes, which are generally completely off of main routes / traffic free ( usually short bimbles around parks and the like). “Steady rides” pretty much attract people with a bit more experience, and are usually routed mainly on infrastructure, where exposure to roads / traffic is minimised. “Challenging” rides generally attract more experienced cyclists and include more normal roads / traffic conditions, and are up to 30 miles in length. And “challenge 60” rides are only lead by more highly trained ( level 2 ) leaders, and can be over 60 miles in length and include remote or challenging terrain. Before the ride commences, there are subtle things the leaders can do, to asses any riders there are doubts about, “words of guidance and encouragement“ can be given to said rider(s) and if needs be ( it’s only happened once on a B.C. ride I was involved with) the rider can be encouraged to rethink their participation.


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## Racing roadkill (19 Jun 2020)

Brandane said:


> Normally this one is reserved for our @Drago , who really IS awesome, obviously ; but for the above post have this......
> 
> View attachment 530912


I get that a lot, you’re welcome.


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## Racing roadkill (19 Jun 2020)

Brandane said:


> WTF? Talk about over complicating something as simple as a bike ride! Anyone who rides a bike and goes on one of these "social rides" should be capable of dealing with a junction without someone holding their hand. If marking junctions is really necessary for navigation purposes in the event of a large ride getting strung out, then why not use the motorbike "marker" method whereby you have a ride leader who stays at the front, and a tail end charlie bringing up the rear. At each junction, the person behind the leader stays and "marks" the junction if required by the leader, and waits until tail end charlie comes along. Marker then joins the ride ahead of tail end charlie and can then make there way back towards the front if they so desire. Meantime, next rider behind the leader marks the next junction, and so on....


That’s pretty much what does happen, only it’s a little bit more regimented for insurance / liability reasons.


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## dodgy (19 Jun 2020)

2 leaders/instructors/whatever poles apart on a thread about leading bike rides, but both with a complete unswerving belief in themselves 🤷‍♂️


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## Racing roadkill (19 Jun 2020)

dodgy said:


> 2 leaders/instructors/whatever poles apart on a thread about leading bike rides, but both with a complete unswerving belief in themselves 🤷‍♂️


I’ve got the backing / endorsement of the official governing body of sports cycling in the U.K. though ( formerly the British Cycling Federation). That’s good enough for me. If this was a game of top trumps, I’d win.


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## freiston (19 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> At last you’ve ( sort of ) got it. On a ride social that ride leader is still an accredited leader, and still gets the L, just not an official separate bit.* But they are still leading the ride.* I was one of the original leaders who were asked to trial the ride social idea, the key difference used to be that we didn’t get paid to do ride socials, and we did get paid to do guided rides. We now don’t get paid to do either, so getting paid or not used to be the only real difference, now there essentially is no difference, if an accredited leader sets up a ride social or guided ride ( other than the restrictions on size of group / leader to participant ratio / risk assessment and route distance / terrain ). Clearly you don’t understand, so don’t tire yourself out trying to explain it to me ( a very experienced Accredited ride leader, with many years, and rides under his belt).


I've emboldened the bit that you have got wrong.


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## classic33 (19 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> I’ve got the backing / endorsement of the official governing body of sports cycling in the U.K. though ( formerly the British Cycling Federation). That’s good enough for me. If this was a game of top trumps, I’d win.


Social riding a sport now?


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## I like Skol (19 Jun 2020)

I suppose within the pool of available BC trained ride leaders there must be members that will gladly team up and work together on ride management, while conversely there must be individuals that the other leaders fall over themselves to avoid working with? I guess the less popular ride leaders often end up trying to lead rides on their own, resulting in the farcical and frantic shuttling back and forth, trying to lead from the back while controlling the ride from the front () as described above.


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## Drago (19 Jun 2020)

No? No one?

1. Immediately put your bike between yourself and the traffic, ideally with the drivertrain facing away you.

2. Unfasten your lid. If you're attacked or fall and become entagled in the bike it can choke you, or worse. Only have it fastened while riding.

3. If at all possible, remain at least 3 metres from the edge of the road when pushing the bike. If you trip and fall you'll likely go on top of the bike and have no control about where you're going. 3 metres prevents you ending up in the carriageway. Geography doesn't always make this possible, but as an aspirational safety measure it's worth doing. Do not push a bike along narrow towpaths for the same reason - either ride it, where you'll likely come off cleanly if it goes wrong, or go around.


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## Racing roadkill (19 Jun 2020)

freiston said:


> I've emboldened the bit that you have got wrong.


Half credit, what I should have said is the leader is only really the leader if it’s a ride they’ve planned and posted, another accredited ride leader _could _join, get the purple L, but not strictly be a leader, because it’s not their ride / route. However I was specifically talking about me leading my ride.


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## Algarvecycling (19 Jun 2020)

Wow! Never heard of these type of rides before where you need a Leader/Nanny. On non-race Sundays, I will join Club rides, no special organisation etc required, no 'leaders' or anything like that, we just wait for the slowest to catch up occasionally, agree where to meet, stop for a drink, whatever. 

We also have much larger rides officially organised and advertised by the local bike shops called 'GPS Rides' for both road and MTB rides. These attract many Clubs and individuals and can run into the 100's of participants. Leaders?  We simply download the GPS file the evening before, pitch up at the meeting point, listen to any special instructions/advice/warnings re roadworks etc/special attention sections and the like and then we are off! No waiting for anyone, everyone goes off at their own pace and if you have an issue, a friend/s or teammate/s help you. Insurance? That's down to the individual cyclist, no different to any other ride.

Basically, unless you join a specific Tour Group as a tourist, there is no nannying, you just meet up with friends, teammates or as a larger group and get on with enjoying the ride.


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## Racing roadkill (19 Jun 2020)

I like Skol said:


> I suppose within the pool of available BC trained ride leaders there must be members that will gladly team up and work together on ride management, while conversely there must be individuals that the other leaders fall over themselves to avoid working with? I guess the less popular ride leaders often end up trying to lead rides on their own, resulting in the farcical and frantic shuttling back and forth, trying to lead from the back while controlling the ride from the front () as described above.


Yes, that’s a fair assessment. It’s still leaders prerogative whether to proceed or not. Personally, I’ve only had to do it as a solo leader with 8 riders, twice. they were both “challenge 60“ rides, so all the riders in the group knew what they doing, and it wasn’t a problem. I’ve got no issues with pulling a ride, if it goes tits up because of a lack of support. The ones that do go tits up, are usually if the weather suddenly deteriorates and no one wants to come out, usually at short notice.


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## Racing roadkill (19 Jun 2020)

Algarvecycling said:


> Wow! Never heard of these type of rides before where you need a Leader/Nanny. On non-race Sundays, I will join Club rides, no special organisation etc required, no 'leaders' or anything like that, we just wait for the slowest to catch up occasionally, agree where to meet, stop for a drink, whatever.
> 
> We also have much larger rides officially organised and advertised by the local bike shops called 'GPS Rides' for both road and MTB rides. These attract many Clubs and individuals and can run into the 100's of participants. Leaders?  We simply download the GPS file the evening before, pitch up at the meeting point, listen to any special instructions/advice/warnings re roadworks etc/special attention sections and the like and then we are off! No waiting for anyone, everyone goes off at their own pace and if you have an issue, a friend/s or teammate/s help you. Insurance? That's down to the individual cyclist, no different to any other ride.
> 
> Basically, unless you join a specific Tour Group as a tourist, there is no nannying, you just meet up with friends, teammates or as a larger group and get on with enjoying the ride.


You’re clearly far too pro ( said no one, ever). Which pro team do you ride for? ( said no one, ever )


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## cyberknight (19 Jun 2020)

Club is having a committee meeting Monday to discuss how they are going to plan this


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## Racing roadkill (19 Jun 2020)

cyberknight said:


> Club is having a committee meeting Monday to discuss how they are going to plan this


It’s going to be very tricky to get this right. ‘Challenges and adventures’ is the phrase, I believe.


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## Algarvecycling (19 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> You’re clearly far too pro ( said no one, ever). Which pro team do you ride for? ( said no one, ever )



Seriously? That's your considered response to my experiences being different to yours and expressing some surprise?

We have very social riders on the rides I described including kids. What does being 'pro' have to do with not needing a 'Leader' on an organised ride? I am simply stating that it surprises me to hear that organised rides in some parts of the World need Leaders and the like.

Edited to add:
I understand that a Tour Group unfamiliar with a place they are visiting would need a Guide/Leader. Equally, an instructional Group teaching new cyclists the ropes. But general social events? New to me. I'm not suggesting it is wrong, if some folks need a nanny on their rides to keep them in check then fine but it really wouldn't be for me or anyone I know. Still, interesting to hear about what others like.


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## freiston (19 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> Half credit, what I should have said is the leader is only really the leader if it’s a ride they’ve planned and posted, another accredited ride leader could join, get the purple L, but not strictly be a leader, because it’s not their ride / route. However I was specifically talking about me leading my ride.


By jove, I think you've almost got it! Now all you need to get your head around is that there are no ride leaders _of_ Ride Socials - just ride organisers - and everyone is a "participant" - no rules, no leaders. Admittedly, if the organiser is the only one that knows the route, they might have to go up front or shout out the turns required - but they're not the "leader".



Algarvecycling said:


> Wow! Never heard of these type of rides before where you need a Leader/Nanny


It seems that some "ride leaders" believe they are leading any ride that they go on, just because they've got a ride leader "badge".


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## DCLane (19 Jun 2020)

cyberknight said:


> Club is having a committee meeting Monday to discuss how they are going to plan this



My club's already come out and stated no group rides and are waiting for 4 July. Others in Yorkshire have followed suit.

This is more about social groups and training; my son's team is looking at doing 1:5 training sessions which this now permits.


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## Dave Davenport (19 Jun 2020)

I did the instructor course with BC a few years ago, it wasn't supposed to be but it definitely was a 'do the course and you're qualified' job as at least 3 or 4 of the 12 on the course weren't safe to ride on their own, let alone instruct others but everyone 'passed'. 
As for RR, if any more proof were needed that he's got a few 'issues' this and his last few threads would be it, which wouldn't matter if it was just putting a load of guff on the tinternet, but the thought of him interacting with people like this in the real world as a leader / instructor in anything is quite concerning.


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## PaulSB (19 Jun 2020)

cyberknight said:


> Club is having a committee meeting Monday to discuss how they are going to plan this


We've already discussed this in my club committee and concluded as a club committee we can achieve BC's requirements and issue guidance to our members. We cannot though ensure these requirements will be adhered to. This is not because we have a bunch of irresponsible members but because the BC guidelines/requirements aren't practical for club rides.

The club won't be putting on any "official" events on the back of BC's The Way Forward.

We've already had to cancel our hill climb championship, open TT10 and the track Race Day is at best 50/50. Very disappointing.


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## PaulSB (19 Jun 2020)

Drago said:


> No? No one?
> 
> 1. Immediately put your bike between yourself and the traffic, ideally with the drivertrain facing away you.
> 
> ...


Thanks. I didn't I know this as safety recommendations. No. 1 is instinctive for me. No. 2 I have never considered. No. 3 is something I naturally do when stopped, I can't recall when I last pushed, but 3 metres as you say is difficult to achieve.


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## matticus (19 Jun 2020)

Algarvecycling said:


> I am simply stating that it surprises me to hear that organised rides in some parts of the World need Leaders and the like.


I'm in the UK - like the ride leader here. Most organised rides here don't require leaders. No need to thank me for this information.



> Edited to add:
> I understand that a Tour Group unfamiliar with a place they are visiting would need a Guide/Leader. Equally, an instructional Group teaching new cyclists the ropes. But general social events? New to me. *I'm not suggesting it is wrong*, if some folks need a nanny on their rides to keep them in check then fine but it really wouldn't be for me or anyone I know. Still, interesting to hear about what others like.


You're not suggesting it's wrong, but you _are _being very rude about a small segment of cyclists who do things differently to you.


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## Algarvecycling (19 Jun 2020)

matticus said:


> I'm in the UK - like the ride leader here. Most organised rides here don't require leaders. No need to thank me for this information.
> 
> 
> You're not suggesting it's wrong, but you _are _being very rude about a small segment of cyclists who do things differently to you.


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## dodgy (19 Jun 2020)

Drago said:


> No? No one?
> 
> 1. Immediately put your bike between yourself and the traffic, ideally with the drivertrain facing away you.
> 
> ...



Kill me now.


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## Randomnerd (19 Jun 2020)

Lads. The stench of testosterone in here is choking me. What a willy-waving contest. Oh dear. You are all so awesome. Makes me feel so inadequate that I havent got more than my Cycling Proficiency Test certificate from 1976. Is the OP aware he rubs everyone up the wrong way when he starts these threads? If so, shouldnt he be put on the naughty step to think about his actions? Naughty boy. Sit there and don't argue. There. Or you'll not get any cake.


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## Phaeton (19 Jun 2020)

Randomnerd said:


> Is the OP aware he rubs everyone up the wrong way when he starts these threads?


Yes, but he gets paid extra for it on a Saturday night


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## Drago (19 Jun 2020)

Randomnerd said:


> Lads. The stench of testosterone in here is choking me. What a willy-waving contest. Oh dear. You are all so awesome. Makes me feel so inadequate that I havent got more than my Cycling Proficiency Test certificate from 1976. Is the OP aware he rubs everyone up the wrong way when he starts these threads? If so, shouldnt he be put on the naughty step to think about his actions? Naughty boy. Sit there and don't argue. There. Or you'll not get any cake.


I had do do mine on a girls bike, because the Raleigh Chopper was considered to dangerous to use for the CPT. I've been over compensating ever since.


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## matticus (19 Jun 2020)

Am I allowed to post without a CP certificate? Or should I mention this inadequacy in my signature, full disclosure and all that.


(I do have some passes in 'ologys.)


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## steve292 (19 Jun 2020)

I can drive an 1100 MW power station all on my own. I'm sure I don't need someone to tell me how to ride my bike.

Edited for the Pedantic Society, or is it the Society of Pedants?


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## Drago (19 Jun 2020)

Isn't 1100 milliwatts, well, not really a lot?


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## Racing roadkill (19 Jun 2020)

Randomnerd said:


> Lads. The stench of testosterone in here is choking me. What a willy-waving contest. Oh dear. You are all so awesome. Makes me feel so inadequate that I havent got more than my Cycling Proficiency Test certificate from 1976. Is the OP aware he rubs everyone up the wrong way when he starts these threads? If so, shouldnt he be put on the naughty step to think about his actions? Naughty boy. Sit there and don't argue. There. Or you'll not get any cake.


Meh.


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## Racing roadkill (19 Jun 2020)

classic33 said:


> Social riding a sport now?


Always has been. “the real race is on the road”


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## Racing roadkill (19 Jun 2020)

PaulSB said:


> Thanks. I didn't I know this as safety recommendations. No. 1 is instinctive for me. No. 2 I have never considered. No. 3 is something I naturally do when stopped, I can't recall when I last pushed, but 3 metres as you say is difficult to achieve.


They aren’t really “safety recommendations”. Common sense ( although there really is no such thing) maybe. However we are told to never stop and get off in a live carriageway, unless there’s been an ‘off’ in the pack, which is a) far more sensible and b) far more sensible. So it’s a case of “if you stop in a live carriageway ( which you won’t unless you’re stupid, or someone has crashed) put the bike between you and the traffic, and keep your lid on, because it might choke you if you do something we’ve advised you never to do”. It’s not rocket science really.


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## classic33 (19 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> Always has been. “the real race is on the road”


As I said before, I'd question why you're doing what you claim to be doing. And, in the light of the recent videos now deleted, whether you should be "leading any ride". It seems that you're more interested in having yourself marked as as ride leader, than actually being bothered about those on the rides. I'm not certain if there's a " leaderboard" on who has led the most rides, but you've answered almost as though there is. With this being more important to you, than the actual rides. 

It'd be interesting to know if they still ask people who have taken part in such rides, what they thought of the ride.

Just because a governing body is the "umbrella" for your activities, does not release you from your obligations to those who may end up being on an activity led by you.


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## Racing roadkill (19 Jun 2020)

classic33 said:


> As I said before, I'd question why you're doing what you claim to be doing.


Mostly to get the insurance and money off deals that come with B.C. membership for free.



classic33 said:


> And, in the light of the recent videos now deleted, whether you should be "leading any ride".


Those were all solo ‘balls out efforts’ to get to work on time, and that’s how I always ride them, you’ve never seen one of my lead rides, so can’t comment.


classic33 said:


> It seems that you're more interested in having yourself marked as as ride leader, than actually being bothered about those on the rides. I'm not certain if there's a " leaderboard" on who has led the most rides, but you've answered almost as though there is.


nothing could be further from the truth, and no there isn’t.


classic33 said:


> With this being more important to you, than the actual rides. It'd be interesting to know if they still ask people who have taken part in such rides, what they thought of the ride.


They do, I frequently get mentions, by name, about how much the riders enjoyed my rides, I make sure it’s obvious what the level of ride is ( normally challenge 60 ) and I’ve been specifically asked for, by organisations who partner with B.C. for any rides they want to put on ( the multi day challenge rides we’ve been doing for local charities for example). This was a lead / training ride I did for the charity ‘scope’ a couple of years ago. I became one of their ‘poster boys’ for their Ride London campaign, because I’m just _that _good.


























That’s the poster, with me in front of me, at the Excel centre before the Ride London 2018.


classic33 said:


> Just because a governing body is the "umbrella" for your activities, does not release you from your obligations to those who may end up being on an activity led by you.


I know, I’ve never had any complaints about my rides, and I’ve done loads, so I must be doing something right.




Here’s me with another charity ride ( I’m kneeling on the right) after a 3 day charidee ride from Huddersfield to Southampton. Just looooook at their happy smiling faces ( bless them).


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## Brandane (19 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> I became one of their ‘poster boys’ for their Ride London campaign, because I’m just _that _good.


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## I like Skol (19 Jun 2020)

What a tit! I really do not need to comment on any more of RRs threads or posts from now on. He has summed it all up perfectly himself, without doubt.


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## Racing roadkill (20 Jun 2020)

I like Skol said:


> What a tit! I really do not need to comment on any more of RRs threads or posts from now on. He has summed it all up perfectly himself, without doubt.


It takes one to know one. I don’t care what you think, I reckon no one else does either.


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## CanucksTraveller (20 Jun 2020)

Jesus. Sweet Jesus. Mawkish level 11.


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## Randomnerd (20 Jun 2020)

Worra dyc.


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## icowden (20 Jun 2020)

Darius_Jedburgh said:


> OK. Think you had a post deleted yesterday for being a bit of a ****
> I'll rephrase the question...
> Please explain how Zoom is better or different from all the other video conferencing facilities out there? Why is it better than say Skype?


Late to the party but...

It's not necessarily better but...
It's very simple to use and does not require registration by the attendees. If you want to set up a quick meeting and invite people all they need is the link and a web browser. Audio is easy to adjust so it works reasonably well for remote music lessons also. It's free to use for 1:1 meetings and group meetings less that 40 mins.

Skype is a pain to set up,and you have to go through a registration process. Businesses tend to go for MS Teams but that can also be a pain when trying to find each other.


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## Gazjacko (20 Jun 2020)

Late to the party too but (grabs coat and makes for the door) WTF ! How can a serious subject thread be hijacked by petty infighting?
I’ve been impressed generally with the assistance and helpful attitude with the forum but this? Come on fellas you’re better than that!


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## winjim (20 Jun 2020)

Gazjacko said:


> Late to the party too but (grabs coat and makes for the door) WTF ! How can a serious subject thread be hijacked by petty infighting?
> I’ve been impressed generally with the assistance and helpful attitude with the forum but this? Come on fellas you’re better than that!


It was never a serious subject thread.


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## Brandane (20 Jun 2020)

Gazjacko said:


> Late to the party too but (grabs coat and makes for the door) WTF ! How can a serious subject thread be hijacked by petty infighting?
> I’ve been impressed generally with the assistance and helpful attitude with the forum but this? Come on fellas you’re better than that!


I know. Why can't these nobbers discuss Zoom in an adult fashion?
Yours,
Disgusted of Ayrshire.


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## dodgy (20 Jun 2020)

Best. Thread. EVAR!!!111one


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## Drago (20 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> It takes one to know one. I don’t care what you think, I reckon no one else does either.


I care. Mr Skol is wise and insightful and his words give me pause for thought. Even when I disagree with him I know he has spoken with honesty and integrity. 

In fact, it's time to come clean. I simply love that man. There, I've said it.


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## dodgy (20 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> View attachment 531071
> 
> 
> View attachment 531082
> ...



Aero helmet with peaked cap underneath. Brilliant 

Do you think the final pic with your [bless them] caption might be construed as ever so slightly patronising? But then again, they were in the presence of brilliance.


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## Mark pallister (20 Jun 2020)

Phaeton said:


> THAT^^^^^ does not sound like a social ride


Sounds like herding sheep


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## Mark pallister (20 Jun 2020)

Algarvecycling said:


> Wow! Never heard of these type of rides before where you need a Leader/Nanny. On non-race Sundays, I will join Club rides, no special organisation etc required, no 'leaders' or anything like that, we just wait for the slowest to catch up occasionally, agree where to meet, stop for a drink, whatever.
> 
> We also have much larger rides officially organised and advertised by the local bike shops called 'GPS Rides' for both road and MTB rides. These attract many Clubs and individuals and can run into the 100's of participants. Leaders?  We simply download the GPS file the evening before, pitch up at the meeting point, listen to any special instructions/advice/warnings re roadworks etc/special attention sections and the like and then we are off! No waiting for anyone, everyone goes off at their own pace and if you have an issue, a friend/s or teammate/s help you. Insurance? That's down to the individual cyclist, no different to any other ride.
> 
> Basically, unless you join a specific Tour Group as a tourist, there is no nannying, you just meet up with friends, teammates or as a larger group and get on with enjoying the ride.


But how to you manage to survive ?
no leaders ? No one with enough letters after there name to start a new alphabet ?
it seems the so called experts are trying to take over ,everyone is trying to squeeze a few ££ out of cycling 
just get on your bike and ride


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## Mark pallister (20 Jun 2020)

Drago said:


> I had do do mine on a girls bike, because the Raleigh Chopper was considered to dangerous to use for the CPT. I've been over compensating ever since.


Did you pass ?


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## Drago (20 Jun 2020)

Mark pallister said:


> Did you pass ?


I did, still have the badge! Unfortunately, having passed the Cycling Proficiency test on a Raleigh Denim, with pink handlebar tassels and multiple flower decals, means I'm now over qualified to be a ride leader for either BC or CUK. That girls bike ruined my whole life.


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## Racing roadkill (20 Jun 2020)

dodgy said:


> Aero helmet with peaked cap underneath. Brilliant
> 
> Do you think the final pic with your [bless them] caption might be construed as ever so slightly patronising? But then again, they were in the presence of brilliance.


Quite.


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## Racing roadkill (20 Jun 2020)

Mark pallister said:


> Sounds like herding sheep


It’s more like trying to herd cats, and about as easy as baptising a cat sometimes.


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## Racing roadkill (20 Jun 2020)

winjim said:


> It was never a serious subject thread.


It was, what makes you think differently? Don’t answer, it’s a rhetorical question, I don’t care what you think.


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## Dave Davenport (20 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> Mostly to get the insurance and money off deals that come with B.C. membership for free.


Yep, look after the pennies and before long you can afford to splash twelve thousand quid on a bike


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## Dave Davenport (20 Jun 2020)

You'd have thought BC would have done some sort of diversity training for it's 'employees' (RR's self description).
https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/hmm-no-black-lives-matter-thread.262711/page-22


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## MarkF (20 Jun 2020)

Gazjacko said:


> Late to the party too but (grabs coat and makes for the door) WTF ! How can a serious subject thread be hijacked by petty infighting?
> I’ve been impressed generally with the assistance and helpful attitude with the forum but this? Come on fellas you’re better than that!



If you are not accepted as being "on message" here then there is a lot of insiduous bullying, a person with an alternative view quickly finds himself fending off multiple posters, all with nothing new to add, and the outlier only has one life............


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## fossyant (20 Jun 2020)

Drago said:


> I had do do mine on a girls bike, because the Raleigh Chopper was considered to dangerous to use for the CPT. I've been over compensating ever since.



I did my cycling proficiency on my Chopper - skilz... they were dangerous bikes though, yet still razzed round the woods - my mate had a Grifter though... grrrr.


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## Brandane (20 Jun 2020)

MarkF said:


> If you are not accepted as being "on message" here then there is a lot of insiduous bullying, a person with an alternative view quickly finds himself fending off multiple posters, all with nothing new to add, and the outlier only has one life............


An alternative view? Come on, that's far from the issue here, and on other posts. It's the arrogance and refusal on HIS behalf to see other peoples point of view. You surely can't defend his stance on the Sainsburys van video? Yet despite being pretty much at odds with every other poster, he stood his ground. Then posts more tripe about ASL's. He can't be a troll, he's been around too long for that. So he gets called out for what he is. What did he expect on a public forum about cycling? I thought that was the general idea of forums, to put forward ones point of view on matters under discussion? It's hardly bullying to tell someone they are wrong, is it? Or have we become so sensitive now that even telling it like it is isn't allowed? Might as well close the forum then.


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## Ming the Merciless (20 Jun 2020)

fossyant said:


> I did my cycling proficiency on my Chopper - skilz... they were dangerous bikes though, yet still razzed round the woods - my mate had a Grifter though... grrrr.



Dud mine on a Gresham Flyer


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## freiston (20 Jun 2020)

YukonBoy said:


> Dud mine on a Gresham Flyer


Did mine on a Triumph Rodeo (single speed version) :-)


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## PeteXXX (21 Jun 2020)

On last night's ride..
Yep, we're getting back to 'normal'


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## ianrauk (21 Jun 2020)

PeteXXX said:


> View attachment 531370
> 
> 
> On last night's ride..
> Yep, we're getting back to 'normal'


Walking through a couple of parks yesterday morning with jnr I noticed the increased amount of litter that has now reappeared. Quite shoot really.


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## I like Skol (21 Jun 2020)

Commented on this yesterday when on a ride into the Peak District. The fastfood wrappers were much in evidence climbing out of the Manchester bowl and up the Snake Pass 
It is shoot. I guess it is the same brainless morons that set the moorland on fire with their disposable BBQs


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## Mugshot (21 Jun 2020)

Sad but true. 
Yesterday noticed KFC and McDs wrappers slung on the side of the road.


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## glasgowcyclist (21 Jun 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> If you think they are all wrong, chances are it’s actually you that’s got it wrong.



If only you’d applied that way of thinking on your deleted video threads.


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## DRM (22 Jun 2020)

Was working on the Team Valley Retail Park this afternoon, shops open, car park rammed, social distancing a, pardon the pun , distant memory


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## I like Skol (22 Jun 2020)

DRM said:


> Was working on the Team Valley Retail Park this afternoon, shops open, car park rammed, social distancing a, pardon the pun , distant memory


Because of my shift pattern I ended up doing the family shop on Saturday afternoon. The store wasn't particularly busy and the shelves were reasonably stocked but I was shocked and disgusted by the number of couples and families that were shopping together when the recommendation is still very much to shop alone and maintain distance. Most appeared to be treating the trip as an outing and one family of 5 or 6 members were like a bl00dy swarm, all over the bloomin place, getting up close and then congregating in a group effectively blocking whole isles at a time while they deliberated about what they wanted. I'm surprised the staff let them in, clearly a few of the group should have waited in the car while 1 or 2 at most did the shopping! 
Just a whiff of lockdown easing and people have gone nuts, totally disregarding the situation.


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## DRM (22 Jun 2020)

Yes it’s a nightmare doing the food shop, me and my son go for ours , he has grandparents list, I’ve got ours, we split up and crack on, then queue at the till and I pay for it, seems to be the quickest way to get it done, but back to this afternoon there was 6 women some with babies in push chairs at the car next to me have a really good gossip/catch up, definitely not one family!


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## Mugshot (22 Jun 2020)

I like Skol said:


> Because of my shift pattern I ended up doing the family shop on Saturday afternoon. The store wasn't particularly busy and the shelves were reasonably stocked but I was shocked and disgusted by the number of couples and families that were shopping together when the recommendation is still very much to shop alone and maintain distance. Most appeared to be treating the trip as an outing and one family of 5 or 6 members were like a bl00dy swarm, all over the bloomin place, getting up close and then congregating in a group effectively blocking whole isles at a time while they deliberated about what they wanted. I'm surprised the staff let them in, clearly a few of the group should have waited in the car while 1 or 2 at most did the shopping!
> Just a whiff of lockdown easing and people have gone nuts, totally disregarding the situation.


We went for a shop on Sunday. Tesco here is still doing the one at a time rule. Ended up traipsing round behind a couple that had two trollies (you're not fooling anyone you know!). My wife is in a wheelchair so we can go in together. Anyway, stood behind this couple for blooming ages while they looked at gluten free cornflakes, then managed to skirt past them an aisle or so later and ended up at the reduced counter before them, which has a two metre cordon marked on the floor, spent 10 seconds or so picking up a couple of reduced pork pies () then noticed that the woman was standing right behind me rifling through the ready meals.

"Seriously?" says I, "Why do you think they've marked the floor out?"
"You should move a bit quicker then shouldn't you son?" Says he. ("Son" )

I did my best Paddington impression and gave him a very hard bear stare, then pointed to the newspaper in his trolley and said;

"I see you read the Mail."

He gave me evils for the rest of the shop, which was nice.

But yes, social distancing and lockdown is officially over.


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## Drago (23 Jun 2020)

The roads here in rural Poshshire are still very quiet. Cycling on the road is a relatively pleasant experience at the moment, although the number of potholes gives me cause to suspect that Elon Musk may be practising Mars surface EVA's in the area quite soon.


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## LeetleGreyCells (23 Jun 2020)

Going by the way people were acting in the supermarket this morning, the lockdown must be long over. People brushing past others, ignoring the one-way system, reaching over each other to pick up products off the shelves. I even saw two people give each other a hug while exclaiming, "It's good to see you!" - not an expression you'd expect to hear from people living in the same household for 3 months.


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## classic33 (23 Jun 2020)

LeetleGreyCells said:


> Going by the way people were acting in the supermarket this morning, the lockdown must be long over. People brushing past others, ignoring the one-way system, reaching over each other to pick up products off the shelves. I even saw to people give each other a hug while exclaiming, *"It's good to see you!"* - not an expression you'd expect to hear from people living in the same household for 3 months.


Play this the next time you hear those words.

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cgKpYfGNvN0


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## Phaeton (23 Jun 2020)

Dave Davenport said:


> Yep, look after the pennies and before long you can afford to splash twelve thousand quid on a bike


Who would be so stupid? What is the gain?


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## vickster (23 Jun 2020)

Phaeton said:


> Who would be so stupid? What is the gain?


About half a centimetre (albeit subconsciously)?


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## Phaeton (23 Jun 2020)

vickster said:


> About half a centimetre (albeit subconsciously)?


Even if I won the lottery £65+ million I would never spend that kind of money on a bike, even if the half centimetre was a physically gain


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## vickster (23 Jun 2020)

Phaeton said:


> Even if I won the lottery £65+ million I would never spend that kind of money on a bike, even if the half centimetre was a physically gain


That’s your choice 
I probably wouldn’t either as I’m sure I could have my dream bespoke and unique bike for much less


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## Dave Davenport (23 Jun 2020)

Phaeton said:


> Who would be so stupid? What is the gain?


Who indeed.


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## Phaeton (23 Jun 2020)

vickster said:


> That’s your choice


It is, but at the end of the day, the bike is only as good as the engine & my engine is knackered


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## Algarvecycling (23 Jun 2020)

Phaeton said:


> Even if I won the lottery £65+ million I would never spend that kind of money on a bike, even if the half centimetre was a physically gain



That's your choice and a 100% valid one but the OP's choice to buy a top flight machine is his, equally valid and he doesn't need any further 'justification' than he wanted to because he likes it. We shouldn't belittle other's choices and dictate how they spend their disposable income. It's no different to someone wanting a Bugatti instead of a Kia. If they can afford it, it is their money and if makes them happy, great. I dislike alcohol but I'm not going to diss someone for spending a fortune on fine wine or whiskey. 

As for the gains high end bikes can deliver, they are tangible. Marginal yes, even more so when ridden by someone who is not in peak physical condition and who would not realise the difference or doesn't chase fractions in time. I have taken two overall KOM's this week on my Madone that I repeatedly failed to do on my Wilier - which has helped me to over 70 since August last year. Now, the difference is aero vs light-weight in this case, the aero bike proving faster in the sprint for me. A matter of seconds. Nothing of any importance to anyone not interested in marginal gains, of course. We are the engines that provide the power, sure, but different bikes can help us achieve greater speed and/or endurance. I'd suggest a £1500 bike will deliver the most in terms of quality vs performance for most but if you are physically at the top of your game and striving for more, marginal gains may be important to you. We all have different goals and enjoy the common interest in cycling in different ways.


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## vickster (23 Jun 2020)

Phaeton said:


> It is, but at the end of the day, the bike is only as good as the engine & my engine is knackered


12k e-bike


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## winjim (23 Jun 2020)

Algarvecycling said:


> That's your choice and a 100% valid one but the OP's choice to buy a top flight machine is his, equally valid and he doesn't need any further 'justification' than he wanted to because he likes it. We shouldn't belittle other's choices and dictate how they spend their disposable income. It's no different to someone wanting a Bugatti instead of a Kia. If they can afford it, it is their money and if makes them happy, great. I dislike alcohol but I'm not going to diss someone


Buy what you want, but if you're going to make a point of ostentatiously posting the price of it and making sure that everybody knows exactly how much you spent, you can expect people to form, and express, certain opinions about the purchase, and that behaviour.


View: https://youtu.be/jOlbOZ9w84I


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## dodgy (23 Jun 2020)

If I won £65 million quid on the lottery, I wouldn't be spending much time figuring out if I should buy a £12k bike or not, it wouldn't be worth the thinking time. I'd just buy what the hell I fancied and couldn't give a stuff if it made me faster or not.
I suppose there are some lottery winners who say "it won't change me" and carry on working in the abbatoir because "they love the people they work with".
pfft


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## Algarvecycling (23 Jun 2020)

winjim said:


> Buy what you want, but if you're going to make a point of ostentatiously posting the price of it and making sure that everybody knows exactly how much you spent, you can expect people to form, and express, certain opinions about the purchase, and that behaviour.
> 
> 
> View: https://youtu.be/jOlbOZ9w84I




It was a different thread to this. A different topic and while I'm relatively new here, clearly there is some history I'm unaware of between some posters. But I know what you are saying. Still, someone posting what they paid for a high end machine is no different from someone posting what a cracker of a discount they got or how much they saved buying second-hand etc. In that case he wanted us all to know it is a top-of-the-range machine and it doesn't hurt anyone so I'm ok with that. The OP paid, what, £12k? Full RRP. Same bike can be had for £10k or less online but he chose not to shop around Europe because he didn't have to, evidently, and that's also his choice. 

My neighbour across the road has one of those EV Porsches, the Taycan. Proud as punch of it. Worked hard, let me know how much it cost him. He didn't do that to make me feel he is wealthier or his car is better than mine. He's just a happy chap with a new toy that cost him a pretty penny and, yeah, fished for a 'well-done you'. All good. In this case, the OP showed us his nice new bike, it cost a lot. He splashed out a bit. No harm done.


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## steve292 (23 Jun 2020)

Ahem.....he hasn't shown us the 12k bike. Just told us he has it.


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## AndyRM (23 Jun 2020)

steve292 said:


> Ahem.....he hasn't shown us the 12k bike. Just told us he has it.



He's put a few pics on the 'Photo of the day' thread an it's a lovely looking bike, but as @winjim said, there's ways of interacting on here, and generally OP has gone for what I reckon is a needlessly abrasive approach, which is why he gets the flak that he does. But as he's said more than once, he doesn't care, so it is what it is.


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## Ming the Merciless (23 Jun 2020)

steve292 said:


> Ahem.....he hasn't shown us the 12k bike. Just told us he has it.



If I had a £12k bike I’d want it to go faster. I wonder if the brakes rubbing might explain his average speeds?


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## postman (23 Jun 2020)

Drago said:


> The roads here in rural Poshshire are still very quiet. Cycling on the road is a relatively pleasant experience at the moment, although the number of potholes gives me cause to suspect that Elon Musk may be practising Mars surface EVA's in the area quite soon.


Now make your mind up.I thought your butler did your cycling,just so you did not get a sweat on.


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## steve292 (24 Jun 2020)

AndyRM said:


> He's put a few pics on the 'Photo of the day' thread an it's a lovely looking bike, but as @winjim said, there's ways of interacting on here, and generally OP has gone for what I reckon is a needlessly abrasive approach, which is why he gets the flak that he does. But as he's said more than once, he doesn't care, so it is what it is.


 I stand corrected.


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## PaulSB (24 Jun 2020)

Phaeton said:


> Even if I won the lottery £65+ million I would never spend that kind of money on a bike, even if the half centimetre was a physically gain


Oooh. No. If I won that sort of money I'd have a bespoke bike from the frame upwards. I have a daydream from time to time, walking in to my LBS and saying "Right guys, money no object, let's build a bike!" As much as anything a reward for 20+ years of help, advice and service.

Sounds indulgent I know but after buying my kids a house each the vast bulk of such a sum would go to charity. I couldn't conceive of spending it........


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## Phaeton (24 Jun 2020)

PaulSB said:


> Oooh. No. If I won that sort of money I'd have a bespoke bike from the frame upwards.


But I still don't understand how any bike could conceivably cost that kind of money, what is it you can add or not add that can take the price up there & as said ultimately what determines its usefulness is the engine. It doesn't matter how much lightness you add, I could never ride a bike up the alps,


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## PaulSB (24 Jun 2020)

Phaeton said:


> But I still don't understand how any bike could conceivably cost that kind of money, what is it you can add or not add that can take the price up there & as said ultimately what determines its usefulness is the engine. It doesn't matter how much lightness you add, I could never ride a bike up the alps,


Yes, I understand this and I agree it's the engine which counts. I feel what I'm talking of here is personal pleasure and owning something beautiful. At very close to 66 the circumstances of huge personal wealth would, for me, be irrelevant.

I'd love to set my kids up. A house and a reasonable sum in trust of some form so they could retire at say +/- 55. I'd pay a decorator to paint my house. I'd like a nice car, not big, £30k on a nice all electric. When we go away we could stay in better B&B's.

So things I could add to my life would be very small and the best bike I could imagine would give me more pleasure than the £65m.

Hope this makes sense?


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## roubaixtuesday (24 Jun 2020)

Phaeton said:


> I could never ride a bike up the alps,



Sure you could. Get some very low gears, start early, spin away. Failing that, an ebike. Alpine climbs aren't generally all that steep, just long. 

Every cyclist has one alpine climb in them!


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## classic33 (24 Jun 2020)

Phaeton said:


> But I still don't understand how any bike could conceivably cost that kind of money, what is it you can add or not add that can take the price up there & as said ultimately what determines its usefulness is the engine.* It doesn't matter how much lightness you add, *I could never ride a bike up the alps,


Wouldn't adding something extra make it heavier?


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## figbat (24 Jun 2020)

classic33 said:


> Wouldn't adding something extra make it heavier?


Looks like someone isn't a Colin Chapman fan.


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## Algarvecycling (24 Jun 2020)

Phaeton said:


> But I still don't understand how any bike could conceivably cost that kind of money, what is it you can add or not add that can take the price up there & as said ultimately what determines its usefulness is the engine. It doesn't matter how much lightness you add, I could never ride a bike up the alps,



It really isn't that hard to understand though surely?  Clearly, you are not the target market for such a machine, which is fair enough. I wouldn't pay the hundreds of euros for some of the bottles of wine for sale in my local supermarket. Or the 250 euros per kg for the Wagyu steak. But I appreciate some folks will and do so because they can afford to, because they can taste the subtle differences and know that the creation time was lengthier and involved more work.

You might not be able to ride a 6.8kg climbing bike with the best quality components for durability up the Alps but others can. Some of them want to get up those climbs as fast as they can and beat their previous times. Some of them will pay for the marginal gains that 6.8kg bike with more exotic materials that involved greater research to produce and advance their personal best times by seconds or minutes, as the case might be, over their less light 8 or 9kg bike. Same engine. Same course. Different times due to...the bike.


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## roley poley (27 Jun 2020)

Algarvecycling said:


> It really isn't that hard to understand though surely?  Clearly, you are not the target market for such a machine, which is fair enough. I wouldn't pay the hundreds of euros for some of the bottles of wine for sale in my local supermarket. Or the 250 euros per kg for the Wagyu steak. But I appreciate some folks will and do so because they can afford to, because they can taste the subtle differences and know that the creation time was lengthier and involved more work.
> 
> You might not be able to ride a 6.8kg climbing bike with the best quality components for durability up the Alps but others can. Some of them want to get up those climbs as fast as they can and beat their previous times. Some of them will pay for the marginal gains that 6.8kg bike with more exotic materials that involved greater research to produce and advance their personal best times by seconds or minutes, as the case might be, over their less light 8 or 9kg bike. Same engine. Same course. Different times due to...the bike.


I also think there is quite a placebo effect on thinking you are on the best of the best but would have no idea how to do a blind field test to prove it


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## Ming the Merciless (27 Jun 2020)

roubaixtuesday said:


> Sure you could. Get some very low gears, start early, spin away. Failing that, an ebike. Alpine climbs aren't generally all that steep, just long.
> 
> Every cyclist has one alpine climb in them!



Indeed you’ll ride much steeper hills in the UK than you’ll ride in the alps.


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## Algarvecycling (27 Jun 2020)

roley poley said:


> I also think there is quite a placebo effect on thinking you are on the best of the best but would have no idea how to do a blind field test to prove it



Hmmm. Dunno. I appreciate that there will be a placebo effect on riders not chasing faster times and who ride relatively slowly anyway, so that the benefit is perhaps less than imagined and the joy is simply in riding a machine that feels great to ride. However, actual time records don't lie and repeated attempts on the same course on different bikes can tell a story. Personally speaking, I see a difference in Strava times between my own bikes. Not all bikes handle exactly the same even at the equivalent price point so there is an element of finding the right bike on a personal level too.

My two road bikes have a weight difference of 2.6kg and a big aero difference too - they handle very differently in terms of acceleration, how they maintain speed, general feel, easier or harder to climb with, faster to sprint on etc. There is nothing placebo about which is best for which route I want to do; the heavier more aero bike is notably faster on less lumpy routes whereas the lighter bike gets me Strava KOM's on steep gradients the aero machine has failed to match. That said, I have collected KOM's that on the lighter bike I struggled to get by sprinting on the aero bike. Same engine. We are talking seconds here. Marginal. Utterly irrelevant to most cyclists. But even as a 51 year old racer, the difference between me being on the podium or not is fine margins and so the bike best suited to me for a particular course can help me achieve what I want.

So...yeah, I firmly believe that while the engine is first and foremost to get in shape, a bike can make a difference too.


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## Ajax Bay (28 Jun 2020)

Algarvecycling said:


> the difference between me being on the podium or not is fine margins


Do share what this podium is, of which you speak. Is there a hazard of falling when you step off or will the applauding crowds mitigate that risk?


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## Algarvecycling (29 Jun 2020)

Ajax Bay said:


> Do share what this podium is, of which you speak. Is there a hazard of falling when you step off or will the applauding crowds mitigate that risk?



Have I offended some extremely delicate nerve in you somehow?  Your frankly stupid, sarcastic reply demonstrates you know what I mean; I like racing and I like being in the top 3 - ideally winning. If I find that the tools I use make a difference then I would obviously choose the one that makes the biggest difference. Why is that a problem for you? Grow up.


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## Ajax Bay (29 Jun 2020)

I was enquiring, in a light-hearted chatty way, whether the over 50s podium you're amazingly interested in is virtual or real. What is your current tool of choice? Pictures of tools are always appreciated on CycleChat.


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## Phaeton (29 Jun 2020)

Ajax Bay said:


> Pictures of tools are always appreciated on CycleChat.


Is that a request for everybody to post a "Selfie"


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## Mugshot (29 Jun 2020)

Phaeton said:


> Is that a request for everybody to post a "Selfie"


I've noticed you're leading the way there @Phaeton


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## Phaeton (29 Jun 2020)

Mugshot said:


> I've noticed you're leading the way there @Phaeton


Takes one to know one  meet me behind the bike sheds a break, I have some B&H's


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## Mugshot (29 Jun 2020)

Phaeton said:


> Takes one to know one  meet me behind the bike sheds a break, I have some B&H's


I was only referring to selfies not tools


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## matticus (29 Jun 2020)

Ajax Bay said:


> I was enquiring, in a light-hearted chatty way, whether the over 50s podium you're amazingly interested in is virtual or real. What is your current tool of choice? Pictures of tools are always appreciated on CycleChat.


How about pictures of tools on a podium?


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## Phaeton (29 Jun 2020)

Mugshot said:


> I was only referring to selfies not tools


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## vickster (29 Jun 2020)

matticus said:


> How about pictures of tools on a podium?


Do a Google image search for Polish cycling team  Plenty of 'tools' visible...


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## Ajax Bay (29 Jun 2020)

Are you being Polist, @vickster ?


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## vickster (29 Jun 2020)

Ajax Bay said:


> Are you being Polist, @vickster ?


No


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## Ajax Bay (29 Jun 2020)

@Phaeton @Mugshot @matticus "Your frankly stupid, sarcastic replies demonstrate you knew what I mean[t]".


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## Phaeton (29 Jun 2020)

Ajax Bay said:


> @Phaeton @Mugshot @matticus Your frankly stupid, sarcastic replies demonstrate you knew what I meant.


No please explain what "Pictures of tools are always appreciated on CycleChat." means, as clearly what you meant was not interpreted the way in which is was intended


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## Mugshot (29 Jun 2020)

Ajax Bay said:


> @Phaeton @Mugshot @matticus Your frankly stupid, sarcastic replies demonstrate you knew what I meant.


Blimey @Ajax Bay I was only having a bit of a giggle with @Phaeton


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## matticus (29 Jun 2020)

vickster said:


> Do a Google image search for Polish cycling team  Plenty of 'tools' visible...


noooooo thankyou - once seen, never forgotten!


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## Ajax Bay (29 Jun 2020)

Phaeton said:


> No please explain





Mugshot said:


> Blimey @Ajax Bay I was only having a bit of a giggle with @Phaeton


Please scroll back up the thread (not far) to read our south Portugal resident's assessment of my enquiry about the nature of his podia. I have edited my 'text' to insert quotation marks, for the avoidance of doubt.


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## Phaeton (29 Jun 2020)

Ajax Bay said:


> Please scroll back up the thread (not far) to read our south Portugal resident's assessment of my enquiry about the nature of his podia. I have edited my 'text' to insert quotation marks, for the avoidance of doubt.


CBA unless you provide the permalink


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## Ajax Bay (29 Jun 2020)

Phaeton said:


> provide the permalink


https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/it-looks-like-we’re-getting-back-to-normal-a-bit-quicker-than-i-thought.263228/page-17#post-6052438


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## Mugshot (29 Jun 2020)

Ajax Bay said:


> Please scroll back up the thread (not far) to read our south Portugal resident's assessment of my enquiry about the nature of his podia. I have edited my 'text' to insert quotation marks, for the avoidance of doubt.


Nah, I wasn't even talking to you, I was having a little leg pull with @Phaeton about his corporal Jones "selfie", which he responded to in an equally light hearted manner.

Edit : Understood now I've seen your link post, could I suggest a smilie would've given a quick indicator at the time though? 👍


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## Phaeton (29 Jun 2020)

Ajax Bay said:


> https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/it-looks-like-we’re-getting-back-to-normal-a-bit-quicker-than-i-thought.263228/page-17#post-6052438


I'm clearly thicker than @Mugshot but that has been proved on many occasions, but I still have no clue as to what you're getting your Y-fronts in a twist about, or are you a new man & wear boxers?


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## Mugshot (29 Jun 2020)

Phaeton said:


> I'm clearly thicker than @Mugshot but that has been proved on many occasions, but I still have no clue as to what you're getting your Y-fronts in a twist about, or are you a new man & wear boxers?


🤔

Ajax was using Algarve's exact wording to continue, I'm assuming, the jovial bantz. Unfortunately it all went horribly wrong for various reasons. So we should all just back away, whistling nonchalantly and pretend none of it ever happened.


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## Phaeton (29 Jun 2020)

Mugshot said:


> So we should all just back away, whistling nonchalantly and pretend none of it ever happened.


What happened now? What have I missed, I'm sick of this work thing always getting in the way.


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## Ajax Bay (29 Jun 2020)




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## winjim (9 Jul 2020)

So...

It's been a while since this thread was started, everyone seems to have bored off and done other things, besides which we're now into July so the guidance will have changed, but I've got a little update to share. Towards the beginning of the thread there seemed to be some confusion as to whether the BC Ride Social rides had leaders as such, and if the guidance therefore was that qualified BC ride leaders could go out and 'lead' rides again. As I'm a member of BC I thought I'd drop them a line asking for some clarification. This is what they had to say:





So it looks like both sides were correct. Ride Social rides don't have to have a leader, a qualified Ride Leader isn't necessarily the leader of the ride, and athough they could take on that level of responsibility if they wished to, it seems not to be encouraged and that BC would rather the Ride Leaders set up Guided Rides instead.

Also, I like to think I'm a man of my word (mostly). I did mention upthread that I was going to cancel my BC membership. This was in response to my querying the OP's manner in presenting their brand, which he seemed to suggest that they knew about, and were therefore, one would presume, happy with. So rather than just cancel my membership in a fit of pique, and as I was emailing them anyway about the Ride Social business, I thought I'd run it by them. I'm also aware that several contributors to the forum have expressed concern about certain aspects of the OP's roadcraft, particularly as it relates to his status as a BC Ride Leader, so I mentioned that too. This is how they responded:




So I think that's fair enough. I've never met the OP in real life and it's perfectly possible that his online persona is markedly different from his actual real world attitude and personality. I'm sure that applies to most of us, online we're all just ciphers onto which we project certain aspects of ourselves, it's just up to us which particular aspects we choose to promote.

Finally, and relating to the concerns about roadcraft, they wrote this:


In a way that's probably fair enough. BC is a big organisation so it must be logistically quite difficult to carry out any sort of continuous competency assessment of their Ride Leaders. I don't know how stringent the qualification requirements are in the first place, but what's good to know is that there is some extra support available if required. I guess it must be up to the individual to access that support but it's reassuring to know that it is there.

And that's what BC themselves have to say on the matter. I thought it was a reasonable response, so I'll remain a member for the time being...


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## Slick (9 Jul 2020)

winjim said:


> So...
> 
> It's been a while since this thread was started, everyone seems to have bored off and done other things, besides which we're now into July so the guidance will have changed, but I've got a little update to share. Towards the beginning of the thread there seemed to be some confusion as to whether the BC Ride Social rides had leaders as such, and if the guidance therefore was that qualified BC ride leaders could go out and 'lead' rides again. As I'm a member of BC I thought I'd drop them a line asking for some clarification. This is what they had to say:
> 
> ...


Gee whizz, it's more complicated than the CDM regulations who's responsible for what when riding a bike.


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## Algarvecycling (10 Jul 2020)

Ajax Bay said:


> I was enquiring, in a light-hearted chatty way, whether the over 50s podium you're amazingly interested in is virtual or real. What is your current tool of choice? Pictures of tools are always appreciated on CycleChat.



 Surely you can't truly believe your posts don't reek of condescension? What is your problem with cyclists who enjoy a bit of competition?

There is room for all types of cyclists - why attack those who share a common enjoyment of cycling in general by being small-minded and holding a weird grudge against some who use bicycles as a sport? 

To answer the previously not obvious question, I race both road and MTB, not virtually. Marginal gains are significant to me because I can and do get into the top 3 at races that are closely contested. At training and Club level I ride and compete with local Pro's, ex-Pro's and Elite younger riders - as perverse as it may sound to you, I enjoy being able to give them a good challenge despite my age.


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## Ajax Bay (10 Jul 2020)

Algarvecycling said:


> the lighter bike gets me Strava KOM's on steep gradients the aero machine has failed to match. That said, I have collected KOM's that on the lighter bike I struggled to get by sprinting on the aero bike. Same engine. We are talking seconds here. Marginal. Utterly irrelevant to most cyclists. But even as a 51 year old racer, the difference between me being on the podium or not is fine margins





Algarvecycling said:


> I like racing and I like being in the top 3 - ideally winning. If I find that the tools I use make a difference then I would obviously choose the one that makes the biggest difference.





Algarvecycling said:


> I race both road and MTB, not virtually. Marginal gains are significant to me because I can and do get into the top 3 at races


Good effort, old chap. I hope your selected tool continues to give you satisfaction.
I invited you to show us your tools but see that you shared a list elsewhere: pasted so others can see your selection.
2019 KTM Kapoho e-MTB
2019 KTM Scarp Sonic MTB
2019 Wilier Zero.6 Sram Red eTap
2020 Trek Madone SLR 6



Algarvecycling said:


> Enjoy and don't mind the pathetic comments from those who clearly need to seek professional counselling; some issues Forums aren't going to solve for them other than give them space to spew snide, immature drivel


Reeking of condescension; moi?


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## Algarvecycling (10 Jul 2020)

Ajax Bay said:


> Good effort, old chap. I hope your selected tool continues to give you satisfaction.
> I invited you to show us your tools but see that you shared a list elsewhere: pasted so others can see your selection.
> 2019 KTM Kapoho e-MTB
> 2019 KTM Scarp Sonic MTB
> ...



Cheers. Ultimately, I'm only relaying my own experiences and findings. If I come across as a bit of a knob for being a tad enthusiastic about racing etc, then...yeah, no worries about thinking of me in that way, I'd get sick of me too harping on about 'marginal gains' when it means stuff all to the vast majority.  

I am just stoked that despite a 15-odd year absence from cycling competitively, I have bounced back to a decent level in the last year and this no doubt colours my posts - I'm no cycling God though, I am not nearly as strong or fast as many who post on these Forums but locally where I live, I do well enough and that's a major boost for my ego, rightly or wrongly. 

In so far as the tools I use to help me, well, yeah, I need all the help I can get! There is a definite difference in how my two road bikes can help me. The MTB is great, wouldn't change it. I'm bloody useless technically and scared of fast downhills so rely upon hills to catch up! Happily, I still seem to manage to do well. 

I'm a born-again cyclist.  That will make me a bore to many but hey, we all love our cycling and I'm only here on this Forum to express my own experiences and enjoyment of it.


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