# Oi! Take your gel packets home with you!



## Accy cyclist (21 Sep 2016)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...l-packets-killed-deer-Richmond-Park-race.html

Now these cyclists ARE giving us a bad name! Surely we can't defend this?


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## jefmcg (21 Sep 2016)

They "cull" 400 deer each year in Richmond Park, so 5 more doesn't seem a huge problem. And it's probably not gel packets that are doing it.

However, I spoke to the official at RP who looks after events the day after RideLondon. Apparently the behaviour of the public (cycling and others) at these events is getting notably worse. He was particularly exercised about walker during ride London ignoring the road closure signs. I had the feeling they are close to the point of saying no to cycle events in the park.


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## screenman (21 Sep 2016)

I wonder how we all managed before gels, not that I have ever used them. We see the empty packets all over the countryside after any large sportive/pretend race around these parts.


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## LocalLad (21 Sep 2016)

If you can carry it full, you can carry it empty! I get that the odd one might be dropped accidentally, but people should at least try!


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## screenman (21 Sep 2016)

It should be illegal to buy them unless your postcode is stamped on them.


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## coffeejo (21 Sep 2016)

It's not cyclists who litter: it's *people*. I haven't done any litter picking for a while but I would fill two carrier bags a week with rubbish from the side of the road between my house and the village shops. And that was just one road.


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## Rooster1 (21 Sep 2016)

that is a disgrace


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## Pale Rider (21 Sep 2016)

It's the usual muddled thinking used by too many cyclists.

"The pro roadies do it, so I must do it as well."


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## winjim (21 Sep 2016)

LocalLad said:


> If you can carry it full, you can carry it empty! I get that the odd one might be dropped accidentally, but people should at least try!


Have you ever tried to put a used gel wrapper back in your pocket? It's fiddly and messy, you end up with sticky goo all over your hands and then the dregs seep through your jersey and make your back really uncomfortable. Much easier to just toss it.


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## PMarkey (21 Sep 2016)

Usual Daily Mail blame the cyclists tosh , obviously their is no condoning littering but I would imagine the main threat to deer is plastic bags and plastic ring holders for cans and not the top of gel packets  

Paul


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## Globalti (21 Sep 2016)

winjim said:


> Have you ever tried to put a used gel wrapper back in your pocket? It's fiddly and messy, you end up with sticky goo all over your hands and then the dregs seep through your jersey and make your back really uncomfortable. Much easier to just toss it.



This post has to be a wind-up, surely?

I've thought for long that there has to be a way of dealing with litter louts. If I was King of the World I would oblige drinks manufacturers and anybody selling takeaway food to use a high quality package that could be recycled and to charge a big deposit on it. This would create a market for discarded packaging and quite soon somebody would invent a way of collecting all that carp thrown away by selfish lazy to55ers and make money recycling it. Oh and a few well-publicised public floggings would help to educate the feckless as well.


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## wonderloaf (21 Sep 2016)

Globalti said:


> This post has to be a wind-up, surely?
> 
> I've thought for long that there has to be a way of dealing with litter louts. If I was King of the World I would oblige drinks manufacturers and anybody selling takeaway food to use a high quality package that could be recycled and to charge a big deposit on it. This would create a market for discarded packaging and quite soon somebody would invent a way of collecting all that carp thrown away by feckless lazy to55ers and make money recycling it. Oh and a few well-publicised public floggings would help to educate the feckless as well.


Already been done, as a kid in the sixties my main source of income was collecting all the discarded pop & beer bottles and taking them to the newsagent/off licence to get the deposit back.


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## mjr (21 Sep 2016)

winjim said:


> Have you ever tried to put a used gel wrapper back in your pocket? It's fiddly and messy, you end up with sticky goo all over your hands and then the dregs seep through your jersey and make your back really uncomfortable. Much easier to just toss it.


Put the empties in the foil or plastic that your panini (heroic) or rice cake (sky) was wrapped in, then shove it in your pocket... or as you don't have a team car or roadside swanny handing you refills as you ride, shove it in whatever stem or bar bag you're using to carry sufficient food.


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## mjr (21 Sep 2016)

jefmcg said:


> However, I spoke to the official at RP who looks after events the day after RideLondon. Apparently the behaviour of the public (cycling and others) at these events is getting notably worse. He was particularly exercised about walker during ride London ignoring the road closure signs. I had the feeling they are close to the point of saying no to cycle events in the park.


I don't agree with rewarding walkers for disrupting cycle events by stopping the cycle events. Surely if walkers won't behave, they should be closing the park to them when cycle events are on, like they do overnight during the deer culls.


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## fimm (21 Sep 2016)

Empty gel packets go up the leg of your shorts, obviously. Or in your bento box/tri bag/whatever you call the little container that goes at the front of your top tube to hold gels & such, which even has a separate space for the waste (why did I spell that waist?)


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## Rooster1 (21 Sep 2016)

You just put the gel wrappers in between the cabling on the handlebars, assuming you have some. That's what I do.


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## winjim (21 Sep 2016)

Globalti said:


> This post has to be a wind-up, surely?


Why? Do you dispute that gel wrappers are messy?


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## mjr (21 Sep 2016)

Rooster1 said:


> You just put the gel wrappers in between the cabling on the handlebars, assuming you have some. That's what I do.


How does that work unless you're so bad at cabling that the outers are rubbing as you ride?


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## Smokin Joe (21 Sep 2016)

Who the hell needs gels on a glorified leisure ride? A Mars bar and some fig biscuits would do just as well and neither tastes like wallpaper paste.


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## si_c (21 Sep 2016)

mjr said:


> Put the empties in the foil or plastic that your panini (heroic) or rice cake (sky) was wrapped in, then shove it in your pocket... or as you don't have a team car or roadside swanny handing you refills as you ride, shove it in whatever stem or bar bag you're using to carry sufficient food.


I don't see how hard it is to carry a sandwich bag you can put the empty wrappers in if they are so disgusting when empty. I've seen loads of cyclists with them for their phones.


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## MontyVeda (21 Sep 2016)

winjim said:


> Have you ever tried to put a used gel wrapper back in your pocket? It's fiddly and messy, you end up with sticky goo all over your hands and then the dregs seep through your jersey and make your back really uncomfortable. Much easier to just toss it.


just toss it then... tosser!


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## si_c (21 Sep 2016)

Smokin Joe said:


> Who the hell needs gels on a glorified leisure ride? A Mars bar and some fig biscuits would do just as well and neither tastes like wallpaper paste.


I prefer wine gums or tracker bars. Mars bars melt, then you have what is basically a gel. Same for any chocolate based snack.


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## John the Monkey (21 Sep 2016)

winjim said:


> Why? Do you dispute that gel wrappers are messy?


Whilst I hate to assume, I rather think that you've missed the point of contention here.


Smokin Joe said:


> A Mars bar and some fig biscuits would do just as well


Co-op wine gums for me, thanks.


> ...and neither tastes like wallpaper paste.


Quite so - gels are revolting, eating them is a sensation I can only imagine to be broadly similar to ingesting a heavily sugared slug.


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## TheJDog (21 Sep 2016)

The manufacturers should repackage them so they look like regular kit-kat wrappers or whatnot, then everyone would just shrug their shoulders because it's just regular littering, not littering by cycling scum.


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## CanucksTraveller (21 Sep 2016)

I find it very easy to empty a gel completely, roll up the packet, and stow it into the bottom of a pocket. Can't say I've ever noticed sticky hands, or pocket seepage. If it's oozing into your pocket, you clearly didn't finish it, ergo, you're doing it wrong.


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## Accy cyclist (21 Sep 2016)

On the subject of cyclists thinking they're pros in a race. The other month i saw a cyclist who's water bottle must've been empty, throw it across the road into some bushes, like the pros do for the fans to pick up as souvenirs.


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## TheJDog (21 Sep 2016)

CanucksTraveller said:


> I find it very easy to empty a gel completely, roll up the packet, and stow it into the bottom of a pocket. Can't say I've ever noticed sticky hands, or pocket seepage. If it's oozing into your pocket, you clearly didn't finish it, ergo, you're doing it wrong.



It's like taking a whiz - you never get those last few drops out.


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## GravityFighter (21 Sep 2016)

winjim said:


> Why? Do you dispute that gel wrappers are messy?



Do you dispute that people who litter are cretins?

No excuse for it, IMO. Obviously some stuff may be accidentally dropped, but deliberately throwing your detritus whilst on the bike is unacceptable. 

Typical Daily Fail article doesn't take account of any actual facts though.


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## JoshM (21 Sep 2016)

winjim said:


> Have you ever tried to put a used gel wrapper back in your pocket? It's fiddly and messy, you end up with sticky goo all over your hands and then the dregs seep through your jersey and make your back really uncomfortable. Much easier to just toss it.



While I'm sure you're trolling, even if they're sticky and fiddly why does that give you the right to litter?

If you find an energy source inconvenient, use something else. It's important that we all leave our green spaces as we find them, otherwise there will be no greenspaces left. Such green spaces aren't your playground to do with what you will. Nor mine. They're a shared space for all to enjoy and to assume your enjoyment is more important than mine, or the next person's is arrogant and rude.


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## coffeejo (21 Sep 2016)

User13710 said:


> And it's not like stuff getting blown out of a car window on a motorway, is it? I mean, if these events really aren't races, people can just stop (safely of course), go back, and pick their accidentally dropped sh1t up, can't they.


I'd make them crawl back on their hands and knees into oncoming traffic.


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## TheJDog (21 Sep 2016)

coffeejo said:


> I'd make them crawl back on their hands and knees into oncoming traffic.



I dropped my water bottle at the top of Leith Hill during the Ride 100 this year. It was a very intense game of Frogger going back for it.


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## Globalti (21 Sep 2016)

Deliberately dropping litter shows lack of social conscience and lack of ability to think in abstract terms, which for me are two top symptoms of idiocy.


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## winjim (21 Sep 2016)

John the Monkey said:


> Whilst I hate to assume, I rather think that you've missed the point of contention here.


There can be no other point of contention since that's the only point I made.



GravityFighter said:


> Do you dispute that people who litter are cretins?


I do dispute it, but not for the reasons you might think.



JoshM said:


> While I'm sure you're trolling, even if they're sticky and fiddly why does that give you the right to litter?


I didn't say it did. I said it was easier to toss it than to put it back in ones pocket. That is why they get tossed.


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## benb (21 Sep 2016)

No excuse at all. If you don't like dealing with the wrappers, do what I do and buy a couple of gel flasks. Easier to access too.


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## John the Monkey (21 Sep 2016)

winjim said:


> There can be no other point of contention since that's the only point I made.


Oh, this is one of those threads, is it? How jolly.


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## Glow worm (21 Sep 2016)

If you are worried about messy hands from empty gel wrappers, why not just carry a small plastic bag ( like the ones you put veg into in shops) and put the gel wrapper in that and then in your pocket to be binned later? I don't use gel but that's method I use for banana skins, sweet wrappers etc. It's no effort at all. Some folk are just utterly pathetic.


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## Soltydog (21 Sep 2016)

screenman said:


> It should be illegal to buy them unless your postcode is stamped on them.


The same should apply to all take away food too, the roads round here are often littered with McDs, Costa, KFC etc & there isn't any of these outlets for about 15 miles


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## huggy (21 Sep 2016)

The tear off tabs seem the main problem, I know I find them a fiddle and its tempting to spit them out (I don't), then easy to drop. Could they be designed so the tabs don't detach?


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## mjr (21 Sep 2016)

Soltydog said:


> The same should apply to all take away food too, the roads round here are often littered with McDs, Costa, KFC etc & there isn't any of these outlets for about 15 miles


There's still somewhere in this country where you can go 15 miles each way without a Costa?!?!  We've some branches around here where you can sit in and see another Costa...

Anyway, our verges are full of their products so I'm in favour of making it legal to take any of their litter to their nearest outlet and set fire to it in the entrance.


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## screenman (21 Sep 2016)

User13710 said:


> And it's not like stuff getting blown out of a car window on a motorway, is it? I mean, if these events really aren't races, people can just stop (safely of course), go back, and pick their accidentally dropped sh1t up, can't they.



I think for most who partake it is a race, unfortunately.


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## LocalLad (21 Sep 2016)

winjim said:


> Have you ever tried to put a used gel wrapper back in your pocket? It's fiddly and messy, you end up with sticky goo all over your hands and then the dregs seep through your jersey and make your back really uncomfortable. Much easier to just toss it.


Yes, I have many times. In fact, I put two away in my tri top on Sunday...at speed, and into much tighter pockets than a cycle top


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## JoshM (21 Sep 2016)

winjim said:


> There can be no other point of contention since that's the only point I made.
> 
> I do dispute it, but not for the reasons you might think.
> 
> I didn't say it did. I said it was easier to toss it than to put it back in ones pocket. That is why they get tossed.



So do you toss them, or are you offering a (totally unacceptable) reason for why other people do it? 

Either way it's not acceptable. As I said before its rude and arrogant to litter, presuming that your enjoyment of a public space is more important than anyone else's. If your choice of energy is inconvenient then chose something else. 

For clarity, I'm using you in the general sense, not you personally.


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## Kernow Cyclista (21 Sep 2016)

600 discarded cheap broken and unrecyclable bodyboards were dumped on just 3 Cornish beaches in one month and had to be cleared up by local (many volunteer) beach cleaners. Shameful. 
I don't know whether gel wrappers could be made out of fast biodegrading material but I do know holidaymakers could buy a better quality bodyboard that would last years and wouldn't break after 6 waves and end up a hazard to wildlife on some beach.
Dropping litter of any kind is sheer laziness, isn't it. And as Globalti says, a lack of social concience.


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## winjim (21 Sep 2016)

JoshM said:


> So do you toss them, or are you offering a (totally unacceptable) reason for why other people do it?
> 
> Either way it's not acceptable. As I said before its rude and arrogant to litter, presuming that your enjoyment of a public space is more important than anyone else's. If your choice of energy is inconvenient then chose something else.
> 
> For clarity, I'm using you in the general sense, not you personally.


There are some things which really ought to go without saying.



LocalLad said:


> Yes, I have many times. In fact, I put two away in my tri top on Sunday...at speed, and into much tighter pockets than a cycle top


Ah well, if you're doing tri then presumably your kit is wet from swimming, so you have somewhere to wipe your sticky hands.


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## JoshM (21 Sep 2016)

winjim said:


> There are some things which really ought to go without saying.
> 
> Ah well, if you're doing tri then presumably your kit is wet from swimming, so you have somewhere to wipe your sticky hands.



Indulge me then and answer the question directly despite how obvious the answer may be. I'm not very clever you see. Do you toss your gel wrappers, or are you just excusing those who do?


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## winjim (21 Sep 2016)

JoshM said:


> Indulge me then and answer the question directly despite how obvious the answer may be. I'm not very clever you see. Do you toss your gel wrappers, or are you just excusing those who do?


No and no.


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## mjr (21 Sep 2016)

winjim said:


> No and no.


and that will forever be known as the post where @winjim denies being a tosser...


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## benb (21 Sep 2016)

The fact is that some people are selfish fotzes who don't give a sh1t about anyone else.


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## JoshM (21 Sep 2016)

winjim said:


> No and no.


Why offer an explanation then?

Does having a reason for unacceptable behaviour male the behaviour less unacceptable? Or does it mean you shouldn't feel the consequences of your actions?


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## winjim (21 Sep 2016)

mjr said:


> and that will forever be known as the post where @winjim denies being a tosser...


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## winjim (21 Sep 2016)

JoshM said:


> Why offer an explanation then?
> 
> Does having a reason for unacceptable behaviour male the behaviour less unacceptable? Or does it mean you shouldn't feel the consequences of your actions?


You obviously disagree with my actions on this thread yet here you are asking questions to try and understand it.


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## keithmac (21 Sep 2016)

Anybody who drops litter is either lazy or has no respect for other people (or both!).

It boils my p1ss. 

My workmate years ago picked up a load of McDonald's litter dropped out of a car (possibly a taxi?), and pushed the bag back through the drivers window.

Should be done more often!.

Cigarette butts are another annoyance.


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## JoshM (21 Sep 2016)

winjim said:


> You obviously disagree with my actions on this thread yet here you are asking questions to try and understand it.



Let's not say disagree with your actions, especially since you've clarified you are not a tosser! Rather lets say confused as to why someone would offer a rationale apparently defending a course of action they don't condone or partake in and go no further and I wasnt sure if I was missing the point you were trying to make.

I'm certainly not having a dig at you personally, and unreservedly apologise if I've given that impression.


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## stephec (21 Sep 2016)

wonderloaf said:


> Already been done, as a kid in the sixties my main source of income was collecting all the discarded pop & beer bottles and taking them to the newsagent/off licence to get the deposit back.


What about shinning over the back wall of the shop to liberate the empties you took back earlier, then taking them to a different shop down the road?


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## screenman (21 Sep 2016)

stephec said:


> What about shinning over the back wall of the shop to liberate the empties you took back earlier, then taking them to a different shop down the road?



Or even back in the same shop.


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## fossyant (21 Sep 2016)

As folk have said, it's all walks of life where people drop litter. Even MTBers complain about people dropping gels on trails or remote tracks. Take it home.


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## winjim (21 Sep 2016)

JoshM said:


> Let's not say disagree with your actions, especially since you've clarified you are not a tosser! Rather lets say confused as to why someone would offer a rationale apparently defending a course of action they don't condone or partake in and go no further and I wasnt sure if I was missing the point you were trying to make.
> 
> I'm certainly not having a dig at you personally, and unreservedly apologise if I've given that impression.


You haven't given that impression at all . I'm mainly just being silly, but within the silliness there are a few serious points.

This subject crops up from time to time and always leads to several pages of people pointing out how naughty it is to drop litter, which is quite frankly stating the bleedin' obvious and rather boring so I'm having a little fun.
Gel wrappers _are_ fiddly and messy, and this is maybe one reason why people drop them, especially if they are pretending to race so daren't slow down to sort it out properly.
Only by attempting to understand bad behaviour can you hope to address it. This does not mean you have to excuse or condone it. That was the point I was trying to make above when I said you were asking questions of me. It's probably a bit heavy to apply to this situation but by then I was committed to the thread so in for a penny, in for a pound.
I refuse to take seriously any thread predicated on an article from the Daily Mail.
Winky face


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## Smokin Joe (21 Sep 2016)

Perhaps a £10 surcharge on every sportive entry fee would make people think twice about littering. Litter to be bagged up by marshals travelling behind the event and the surcharge returned if less than X bags is collected. Drop a wrapper then and prepare for a mouthful of abuse from other riders.


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## Lpoolck (21 Sep 2016)

keithmac said:


> Anybody who drops litter is either lazy or has no respect for other people (or both!).
> 
> It boils my p1ss.
> 
> ...



I was just saying the other day how dropping cigarette butts seems a socially 'acceptable' form of littering as most smokers I have seen and I know drop them, even those who are against littering!

There is no excuse for littering, including gel wrappers...sticky, difficult to put back in pocket or whatever lame excuse there is. If your fingers are sticky, squirt your water from your water bottle onto them and wipe on your shorts. Job done.


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## jefmcg (21 Sep 2016)

The original post was about the London Duathlon, which is a race. The cost of cleaning should be included in the entry fee. 

Does the Mail have articles in April about "litter lout runners"?


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## wonderloaf (21 Sep 2016)

stephec said:


> What about shinning over the back wall of the shop to liberate the empties you took back earlier, then taking them to a different shop down the road?


Never tried that, but we had Coca-Cola bottling plant near us, so we used to climb over the fence to acquire empty or full bottles. If they were full it was a double bubble as we got a drink as a bonus!


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## stephec (21 Sep 2016)

screenman said:


> Or even back in the same shop.


We weren't that cheeky.


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## Simontm (21 Sep 2016)

On a slightly related subject - how come on a Monday morning round Richmond Park I'm dodging spent air tubes? Why are they even on a road at all?


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## Soltydog (22 Sep 2016)

keithmac said:


> Anybody who drops litter is either lazy or has no respect for other people (or both!).
> 
> It boils my p1ss.
> 
> ...



On a similar note, at the beginning of the summer I was up at the wife's horses sorting out the stable roof, when a van when past & threw an empty coke can onto the verge. Obviously he hadn't seen me watching & not sure he heard me shouting "Tramp!" I managed to get the company name off the van & it turns out that it was a self employed contractor, so getting his address was quite easy. I retrieved the can & crushed it a little, put it in a large jiffy bag & posted it back to him with a note. I accidently put insufficient postage on the envelope, so hopefully the said contactor had to pay the post office excess to receive his own litter


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## Ajax Bay (22 Sep 2016)

Simontm said:


> air tubes


??????


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## Cubist (22 Sep 2016)

It's a daily wail article. 
The race was organised and had litter pickers laid on.
The litter pickers failed to pick the litter. 
The deer in the photo was wearing a Tesco bag.
The stomach contents from the dead deer were not gel wrappers.

BUT

In the minds of the average wail reader, cycling in Richmond Park kills deer. Fantastic.


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## Simontm (22 Sep 2016)

Ajax Bay said:


> ??????


Having a senior moment last night and couldn't think what an earth CO2 cartridges were called


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## Tim Hall (22 Sep 2016)

Simontm said:


> Having a senior moment last night and couldn't think what an earth CO2 cartridges were called


Are they CO2 cartridges or laughing gas cartridges? The latter are used by The Young People for recreational purposes and tend to be smaller than CO2 and discarded in greater quantities.


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## e-rider (22 Sep 2016)

cyclists up and down the country are dropping litter - such people exist in society and that will never change. Unfortunately when such people take up cycling as a hobby/sport the public are quick to label all cyclists with the same behaviour.

My biggest concern is how so many drivers these days target serious aggression towards me based on how other cyclists have made them feel. The roads are not a nice place to be for a cyclist these days and something needs to be done soon. I like the way West Midlands police are actively trying to improve things for vulnerable road users such as cyclists - perhaps there is hope for the future! What we need is central government to get serious about cycling but none of the big 3 parties have much interest in that right now


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## John the Monkey (22 Sep 2016)

e-rider said:


> My biggest concern is how so many drivers these days target serous aggression towards me based on how other cyclists have made them feel. The roads are not a nice place to be for a cyclist these days and something needs to be done soon.


Yes, although I feel that sometimes, that's a post-hoc rationalisation of their bad behaviour. E.g. they do something idiotic and impatient, because they simply are not considering the consequences, which they then justify by reaching into the grab bag of anti-cycling tropes. 

I think that in most cases, the idiotic behavior would probably still happen[1], tbh, regardless of whether they felt forced to justify it with some anti-cycling nonsense or not.

[1] Because, among other things, of a road culture that prioritises anything with a motor, that minimises and condones motoring crime/bad behaviour as less anti-social than that occuring in other spheres of life, and that holds as very important a sort of pointless alacrity in which it is vital to get to the next traffic bottleneck as quickly as possible, regardless of the minor (if any) improvement in overall journey time.


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## mjr (22 Sep 2016)

Simontm said:


> Having a senior moment last night and couldn't think what an earth CO2 cartridges were called


Oh I thought you meant inner tubes. There have been times when I've first noticed a new sportive route by the discarded inner tubes hung on garden fences  - usually it's the arrows that are put up and rarely removed after the event. I spotted an arrow from the 2015 Round Britain Bike Ride yesterday...


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## benb (22 Sep 2016)

keithmac said:


> Anybody who drops litter is either lazy or has no respect for other people (or both!).
> 
> It boils my p1ss.
> 
> ...



This is good.


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## mjr (22 Sep 2016)

benb said:


> This is good.


First one's just a bit naughty, throwing the ashtray in, but the others are just "I think you dropped this - have it back" ones


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## John the Monkey (22 Sep 2016)

Interesting article on the subject, which suggests that gel packets maybe the least of the poor devils' worries. That figure of 5, incidentally, is for *all* litter;

http://www.frp.org.uk/news/142-carelessness-costs-deer-lives


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## Old Steve (22 Sep 2016)

jefmcg said:


> The original post was about the London Duathlon, which is a race. The cost of cleaning should be included in the entry fee.
> 
> Does the Mail have articles in April about "litter lout runners"?


 I Am not sure if you are a Alamy live news/ stock photographer or not, if you are ....hello fellow news photographer..... if not are you aware that lifting a watermarked photograph from Alamy or any news site to which the copyright belongs to the photographer is breaking the law and is known as copyright infringement, the Image is not one of mine so doesn't effect me... But I was going to point out that I make more money per image ( a lot more ) by chasing copyright infringement ( theft ) than I do from licensing the images legitimately in the first place..
As I said not a problem to me and maybe you are a fellow news/stock photographer.. If not I expect that the other photographers do the same as me and check most days with Google reverse search or tin eye to see which of their images are getting ripped off and where they are being used.

Quick edit, I just checked the image and the photographer who owner the copyright is known to me....so maybe your name is Simon ....... But also possibly not.


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## mjr (22 Sep 2016)

Old Steve said:


> if not are you aware that lifting a watermarked photograph from Alamy or any news site to which the copyright belongs to the photographer is breaking the law and is known as copyright infringement


The source image has not been lifted or copied or "ripped off", so no, it's not known as that. Copyright trolls disgust me.  Photographers should be paid decently for photographing and not be expected to use artificial legal monopolies to try to compensate for being underpaid in the first place.

An instruction (bbcode) was placed in the comment telling browsers to load the image from Alamy's server - you can verify that by right-clicking and picking "View Image Info" in some browsers - and if Alamy has a problem with that, then they can block this site from their servers by various tactics. Or they might prefer the advertising from their branding on the bottom of the image.


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## Old Steve (22 Sep 2016)

mjr said:


> The source image has not been lifted or copied or "ripped off", so no, it's not known as that. Copyright trolls disgust me. Photographers should be paid decently for photographing and not be expected to use artificial legal monopolies to try to compensate for being underpaid in the first place.
> 
> An instruction (bbcode) was placed in the comment telling browsers to load the image from Alamy's server - you can verify that by right-clicking and picking "View Image Info" in some browsers - and if Alamy has a problem with that, then they can block this site from their servers by various tactics. Or they might prefer the advertising from their branding on the bottom of the image.


As I said it is not a problem to me... But it is not a link to the photo... It is a watermarked copy of the photo...


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## jim55 (22 Sep 2016)

Old Steve said:


> I Am not sure if you are a Alamy live news/ stock photographer or not, if you are ....hello fellow news photographer..... if not are you aware that lifting a watermarked photograph from Alamy or any news site to which the copyright belongs to the photographer is breaking the law and is known as copyright infringement, the Image is not one of mine so doesn't effect me... But I was going to point out that I make more money per image ( a lot more ) by chasing copyright infringement ( theft ) than I do from licensing the images legitimately in the first place..
> As I said not a problem to me and maybe you are a fellow news/stock photographer.. If not I expect that the other photographers do the same as me and check most days with Google reverse search or tin eye to see which of their images are getting ripped off and where they are being used.
> 
> Quick edit, I just checked the image and the photographer who owner the copyright is known to me....so maybe your name is Simon ....... But also possibly not.


Who gives a stuff re what / where that pic came from , the point still stands , are water bottles exempt from reporting on , its a good one and very valid


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## mjr (22 Sep 2016)

Old Steve said:


> As I said it is not a problem to me... But it is not a link to the photo... It is a watermarked copy of the photo...


It is not a copy. Please learn the difference between embedding/framing and copying.


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## winjim (22 Sep 2016)




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## jefmcg (23 Sep 2016)

Old Steve said:


> I Am not sure if you are a Alamy live news/ stock photographer or not, if you are ....hello fellow news photographer..... if not are you aware that lifting a watermarked photograph from Alamy or any news site to which the copyright belongs to the photographer is breaking the law and is known as copyright infringement, the Image is not one of mine so doesn't effect me... But I was going to point out that I make more money per image ( a lot more ) by chasing copyright infringement ( theft ) than I do from licensing the images legitimately in the first place..
> As I said not a problem to me and maybe you are a fellow news/stock photographer.. If not I expect that the other photographers do the same as me and check most days with Google reverse search or tin eye to see which of their images are getting ripped off and where they are being used.
> 
> Quick edit, I just checked the image and the photographer who owner the copyright is known to me....so maybe your name is Simon ....... But also possibly not.


You sir - and please don't take this the wrong way - are an idiot. I'd say well under half the images posted on this site are being shared by the copyright holder, or with the copyright holders permission yet as far as I can see, you have decided to single me out - you don't routinely harange people here for copyright infringement. As @mjr points out, I have not copied the image, but have hotlinked* it. That means

Alamy know I am doing this
Alamy could stop me doing it if they wanted. This is a trivial bit of code server side to only display images on their site.
But they don't want to stop me sharing their images, and I can guess why. Time for another short list!

They know anyone who is satisfied with a watermarked image is not about to buy an image and will not be using it commercially, so they are not losing a sale
They are getting free advertising! If anyone in the market for a stock image of a marathon drinks station finds this thread, and wants to license that image, it has all the information for them to buy the image. If you to alamy.com, and type in the code the search box, it takes you straight to http://www.alamy.com/search.html?qt=ekm4tc. @Shaun should be charging them. 
_Appendix
*Hotlink - if you don't know what I mean, either right click with your mouse on that image, or press and hold on it if you are using tablet/phone. When the menu pops up, choose "Open image in new tab" (or similar). Go to the new tab, check the address of the image. It is on alamy.com. I haven't copied or stolen anything, except bandwidth_


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## Old Steve (23 Sep 2016)

jefmcg said:


> You sir - and please don't take this the wrong way - are an idiot. I'd say well under half the images posted on this site are being shared by the copyright holder, or with the copyright holders permission yet as far as I can see, you have decided to single me out - you don't routinely harange people here for copyright infringement. As @mjr points out, I have not copied the image, but have hotlinked* it. That means
> 
> Alamy know I am doing this
> Alamy could stop me doing it if they wanted. This is a trivial bit of code server side to only display images on their site.
> ...



When I first posted in this thread, politely I might say, I also said you might be the copyright holder of the photograph and if so hello fellow Alamy photographer ( as I did not know if it was yours or not) and of not it was just a friendly chat saying that although it was not my image the copyright holder might be one of the many professional photographers who spend many thousands of pounds carrying out there profession who look regularly to see where there images turn up.. I know I do.. ( just a friendly heads up really ) as I also said it is not a problem with me as it is not one of mine.
Oh and one last thing, I am now 56 years old and have retired ( as I have now got to be where I want in life, ) apart from taking a few worthy pictures when I see them, I also have a large image and footage library which is spread across several stock libraries my work has paid for two properties, several cars and motorcycles as well as a few bicycles and I don't owe a penny to anyone.... So if that makes me a idiot bring it I am a fairly happy idiot


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## winjim (23 Sep 2016)

Old Steve said:


> When I first posted in this thread, politely I might say, I also said you might be the copyright holder of the photograph and if so hello fellow Alamy photographer ( as I did not know if it was yours or not) and of not it was just a friendly chat saying that although it was not my image the copyright holder might be one of the many professional photographers who spend many thousands of pounds carrying out there profession who look regularly to see where there images turn up.. I know I do.. ( just a friendly heads up really ) as I also said it is not a problem with me as it is not one of mine.
> Oh and one last thing, I am now 56 years old and have retired ( as I have now got to be where I want in life, ) apart from taking a few worthy pictures when I see them, I also have a large image and footage library which is spread across several stock libraries my work has paid for two properties, several cars and motorcycles as well as a few bicycles and I don't owe a penny to anyone.... So if that makes me a idiot bring it I am a fairly happy idiot


You're not happy really though are you? Not deep down, I can tell. Don't worry though, if you ever want to talk about it we're here for you.

Here, I think you could use a hug


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## Old Steve (23 Sep 2016)

winjim said:


> You're not happy really though are you? Not deep down, I can tell. Don't worry though, if you ever want to talk about it we're here for you.
> 
> Here, I think you could use a hug


 thanks for the hug, as to whether I am happy or not... well let me think, next week do me and the wife stay at our house on the beach or the one in the country ? shall i go out on one of my bicycles or a motorcycle ? should i maybe go away somewhere and take some photo's for pleasure ? perhaps i will go and buy some new toys or shall i start the new cabin project in the garden at my seaside house, phew thats a lot of choices so I don't really have time to be unhappy.....PS, I have worked very hard to get all that I have got and I still get up at 5.30 every morning to cram all the things that i want to do throughout the day.... retirement at fifty five eh, I dont know where people find the time.


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## Ajax Bay (23 Sep 2016)

Old Steve said:


> When I first posted in this thread, politely I might say,


Steve - I don't think you're an idiot and think you have been very polite and measured. But some people don't agree with your terminology and taken umbrage at your analysis. You've had to work hard/fight for recompense for the images you've captured, published and then others have used without 'permission' and approach this from that perspective.
To twist this into a 'positive' for all (hugs and happiness all round), please could you offer us (this thread) one of your favourite images (preferably cycling related)? A bonus would be that it's one which you've had to chase copyright infringers on. If you can offer a link which illustrates the challenge of photographers in this copyright are(n)a, that would be educational, and no more off topic than the 'spat' above.
I hope you chose the 'ride a bike' option today and you have (already had) a superb ride in this Indian Summer (YWMV).


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## winjim (23 Sep 2016)

Ajax Bay said:


> Steve - I don't think you're an idiot and think you have been very polite and measured. But some people don't agree with your terminology and taken umbrage at your analysis. You've had to work hard/fight for recompense for the images you've captured, published and then others have used without 'permission' and approach this from that perspective.
> To twist this into a 'positive' for all (hugs and happiness all round), please could you offer us (this thread) one of your favourite images (preferably cycling related)? A bonus would be that it's one which you've had to chase copyright infringers on. If you can offer a link which illustrates the challenge of photographers in this copyright are(n)a, that would be educational, and no more off topic than the 'spat' above.
> I hope you chose the 'ride a bike' option today and you have (already had) a superb ride in this Indian Summer (YWMV).


That's an admirably conciliatory tone, but I'm afraid he lost my respect for good when he decided to start bragging about his wealth. That's not polite at all.


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## Dogtrousers (23 Sep 2016)

I’ve just got around to reading the original article.

An important thing here is _“Gel packs, *particularly the tear-off opening strips* […] cleaning contractors used by the organisers to clear up failed to find these items.” _It’s the little bits of litter that are key here, and they are escaping the clean-up operations of the events.

Now, there may be a great many responsible gel users out there who take the wrapper home, but still discard the opening bit, thinking it irrelevant, or aren’t very careful when opening. As these people are already responsible, a bit of education there may be well received.



User14044mountain said:


> Energy gels are so unnecessary. In the old days, we kept a potato in our shorts and nibbled on it if we were hungry. I didn't get where I am today by consuming gel. And as for drinking bottles, when I'm thirsty, I suck on a stone. It seems to work fine.


A stone? When I was a lad there was nothing but lava.


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## Tim Hall (23 Sep 2016)

winjim said:


> That's an admirably conciliatory tone, but I'm afraid he lost my respect for good when he decided to start bragging about his wealth. That's not polite at all.


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## winjim (23 Sep 2016)

Tim Hall said:


>



Yeah, that did spring to mind


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## AndyRM (23 Sep 2016)

Nothing? Pah, you were lucky.


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## PK99 (23 Sep 2016)

User14044mountain said:


> Energy gels are so unnecessary. In the old days, we kept a potato in our shorts and nibbled on it if we were hungry. .



I keep nuts in my shorts.


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## Old Steve (23 Sep 2016)

winjim said:


> That's an admirably conciliatory tone, but I'm afraid he lost my respect for good when he decided to start bragging about his wealth. That's not polite at all.



Sadly mate you lost all of my respect when you said
*
Have you ever tried to put a used gel wrapper back in your pocket? It's fiddly and messy, you end up with sticky goo all over your hands and then the dregs seep through your jersey and make your back really uncomfortable. Much easier to just toss it.*

Edited, I cant even believe I am getting involved with a conversation like this..


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## winjim (23 Sep 2016)

Comprehension fail


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## Dogtrousers (23 Sep 2016)

Embarrassed silence.

Ahem. 

Now, about those gel wrappers. What do you think? A bloomin' disgrace, eh?


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## John the Monkey (23 Sep 2016)

Old Steve said:


> Sadly mate you lost all of my respect when you said
> *
> Have you ever tried to put a used gel wrapper back in your pocket? It's fiddly and messy, you end up with sticky goo all over your hands and then the dregs seep through your jersey and make your back really uncomfortable. Much easier to just toss it.*
> 
> Edited, I cant even believe I am getting involved with a conversation like this..


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## Ajax Bay (23 Sep 2016)

The fact that they (the FRP) did a post event litter sweep and collected a lot of gel wrapper tear off bits but very few wrappers could also suggest that the vast majority of competitors in the London Duathlon (or whatever event) did stow their wrappers (sticky or not) or that the organiser sweep up was pretty thorough. Perhaps we could benefit from an analysis (over a period) of the detritus extracted from the poor dead deer's stomachs to see what proportion of the plastic found is gel wrapper/tear offs and how much is shopping bags and general (ie not 'cyclist') litter? Cyclists need good technique to avoid ripping the tear off bit right off (in their teeth) so the wrapper complete can be stowed. Once the full rip off has been made, i suspect a lot of people will be tempted to just spit it away, even if they know they shouldn't. Fair to say the little tear offs are more difficult to spot when clearing up. Upthread it was suggested that a response/mitigation to this hazard could be redesign of the gel wrappers making one side (opposite the tear off 'nick') much stronger which would reduce the incidence of 'full tear off'.
For the avoidance of doubt, like most if not all on this thread, I depreciate the dropping of any litter and personally do my best not to, and embarras my children occasionally by remonstrating with litter droppers. Real food for me, not gels, anyway. 600km on gels will get a result, but probably not the one one looks forward to.

Think @Cubist had it about right:


Cubist said:


> It's a daily wail article.
> The race was organised and had litter pickers laid on.
> The litter pickers failed to pick the litter.
> The deer in the photo was wearing a Tesco bag.
> ...



If:
1) @winjim hadn't gone for the (personally I took it tongue in cheek / trolling for effect) admission he was a 'tosser' (subsequently denied, please note: see post #59)
and 2) after an image (assume of the Brighton (half?) marathon) was used to illustrate that in road running races (not a sportive) people toss paper cups (to be expected and cleared up by the organisers) funded by the exorbitant entry fee
and 3) you'd made the point about image copyright @Old Steve , with subsequent argument
and 4) @winjim ("I'm just being a bit silly") played the 'but you're not really happy' card and you reacted ill-advisedly
THEN we wouldn't have been able to enjoy 7 pages of this meandering thread.


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## mjr (23 Sep 2016)

John the Monkey said:


>


Are you aunt John or do you have their permission?


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## Dogtrousers (23 Sep 2016)

Stop abusing the image rights of cute kittens.


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## Smokin Joe (23 Sep 2016)

Anyone who can't manage to put an empty wrapper in their pocket while riding has one simple solution. Stop by the side of the road, eat your food and then put the wrapper in your pocket before you mount up again. 

Unless you're soft enough in the head to believe the Wobbly Wheelers sportive really is a road race, of course...


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## mjr (23 Sep 2016)

Smokin Joe said:


> Stop by the side of the road, eat your food and then put the wrapper in your pocket before you mount up again.


 That's why our sportive bikes look like this:




Annoys the heck out of roadies when we scalp them on the climbs, stop at the top and spread out the picnic blanket and check cloth...


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## briantrumpet (23 Sep 2016)

wonderloaf said:


> Already been done, as a kid in the sixties my main source of income was collecting all the discarded pop & beer bottles and taking them to the newsagent/off licence to get the deposit back.


One of my cheekiest moments was following finding a crate of Usher's beer, only about 3 bottles broken, at the side of a road on a bend - it truly had fallen off the back of a lorry, I reckoned. Anyway, I drank the beer, then took the bottles to a shop to claim the deposits (and got them). Well, I was much poorer then...


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## adamangler (23 Sep 2016)

winjim said:


> Have you ever tried to put a used gel wrapper back in your pocket? It's fiddly and messy, you end up with sticky goo all over your hands and then the dregs seep through your jersey and make your back really uncomfortable. Much easier to just toss it.




Sadly I agree. I hate putting the sticky thing in my back pocket.


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## mjr (23 Sep 2016)

adamangler said:


> Sadly I agree. I hate putting the sticky thing in my back pocket.


We were taking about gel packets, not contortionism!


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## Ajax Bay (23 Sep 2016)

adamangler said:


> Sadly I agree.


Please may I refer you to @winjim 's 'I'm being silly' policy statement at post #59, providing context to his early contribution to this thread and some serious (and imo valid) points.


winjim said:


> I'm mainly just being silly, but within the silliness there are a few serious points.


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## winjim (23 Sep 2016)

Ajax Bay said:


> Please may I refer you to @winjim 's 'I'm being silly' policy statement at post #59, providing context to his early contribution to this thread and some serious (and imo valid) points.


It's also become a nice little study to compare what people _think_ they have read to what they have _actually_ read.

In terms of the OP, the story seems to have become more interesting as more details have emerged throughout the course of the thread - see your post #100 and reference to @Cubist 's post. This information was unknown to me when I began my silliness as it wasn't presented that way in the OP and I wasn't about to dirty myself by following a link to the Daily Mail. It does bring up wider issues surrounding plastic waste, anti-cyclist attitudes, responsibilities of event organisers and participants etc etc


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## Smokin Joe (24 Sep 2016)

adamangler said:


> Sadly I agree. I hate putting the sticky thing in my back pocket.


As long as you don't drop the sticky thing on the floor where some poor bugger has to clear up your mess.


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## 400bhp (24 Sep 2016)

winjim said:


> Have you ever tried to put a used gel wrapper back in your pocket? It's fiddly and messy, you end up with sticky goo all over your hands and then the dregs seep through your jersey and make your back really uncomfortable. Much easier to just toss it.



Yes, it's really really easy to put back in your pocket without the gooey mess with a bit of practice. Perhaps try practicing first before being particularly selfish.


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