# Another Cyclist dies at Bow Roundabout



## gaz (13 Nov 2013)

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/lond...ion-with-lorry-at-bow-roundabout-8936566.html



> A cyclist has died after a collision with a lorry at an east London roundabout.
> 
> Emergency crews attended the Bow roundabout at around 8.50am this morning.
> 
> ...


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## musa (13 Nov 2013)

third collision in 1 hour


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## martint235 (13 Nov 2013)

This is getting silly now. I'm not sure what can be done but surely Boris and TfL must recognise that *something* has to be done and soon.

As an aside, looking at the picture on the ES page, I thought Bow Roundabout had a flyover rather than an underpass?


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## Beebo (13 Nov 2013)

martint235 said:


> This is getting silly now. I'm not sure what can be done but surely Boris and TfL must recognise that *something* has to be done and soon.
> 
> As an aside, looking at the picture on the ES page, I thought Bow Roundabout had a flyover rather than an underpass?


 It has both.


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## martint235 (13 Nov 2013)

Beebo said:


> It has both.


Ah. Thank you. I've never noticed the underpass before.


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## cosmicbike (13 Nov 2013)

Whilst the report lacks significant details, the police have already decided not to take any action against the driver, even though he was on a hands free phone and failed to indicate? Surely careless driving as a minimum?


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## deptfordmarmoset (13 Nov 2013)

cosmicbike said:


> Whilst the report lacks significant details, the police have already decided not to take any action against the driver, even though he was on a hands free phone and failed to indicate? Surely careless driving as a minimum?


No, that was Svitlana's killer.


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## cosmicbike (13 Nov 2013)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> No, that was Svitlana's killer.


 
Yes, apologies, my bad. Thought it was a quick decision.


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## Davidsw8 (13 Nov 2013)

I see someone also got hurt on Millbank by Thorney Street yesterday, I notice there's a blue cycle superhighway wotsit there. Fat lot of good they seem to be!


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## gaz (13 Nov 2013)

Davidsw8 said:


> I see someone also got hurt on Millbank by Thorney Street yesterday, I notice there's a blue cycle superhighway wotsit there. Fat lot of good they seem to be!


That was this morning. Yesterday someone was injured in kennington on CS7 and someone died in Croydon. Another rider was also injured this morning on Vauxhall bridge. Less than a mile from the incident at millbank.


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## gaz (13 Nov 2013)

FYI: Talks about a protest ride this evening at bow. Will post more when I know about it.


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## deptfordmarmoset (13 Nov 2013)

gaz said:


> FYI: Talks about a protest ride this evening at bow. Will post more when I know about it.


Yes, it looks to be organised by LCC. 6pm ''Details to follow''


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## Twelve Spokes (13 Nov 2013)

Protesting against what?

There's a lot of issues here,not just bad layouts and dodgy cycle lanes.


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## Davidsw8 (13 Nov 2013)

gaz said:


> That was this morning. Yesterday someone was injured in kennington on CS7 and someone died in Croydon. Another rider was also injured this morning on Vauxhall bridge. Less than a mile from the incident at millbank.



These incidents always make my blood run cold but these ones over the past few days are all routes that I cycle through regularly and it's really starting to get to me now.

I wonder if there's something more than can be done other than these protest rides as no one appears to be listening? Boris is focused on those superhighways and segregation but the problem is so much bigger than those solutions. I'm drafting a letter to various people (Boris, my MP etc.) but not sure what good it can do...


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## totallyfixed (13 Nov 2013)

My thoughts go out to to the friends and relatives of the dead cyclist and a get well to the injured.
It's almost like reading about a war zone in a third world country. The lack of respect, courtesy and care taken on the roads, particularly in London seems hardly credible.
After spending time cycling around the Netherlands, in comparison we are a third world country. I feel both sad and angry in equal parts.


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## nilling (13 Nov 2013)

It's been a very sad couple of days; RIP fellow cyclists.


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## gaz (13 Nov 2013)

Info on the protest ride: http://lcc.org.uk/articles/lcc-urge...to-take-immediate-action-to-make-cycling-safe


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## gaz (13 Nov 2013)

Twelve Spokes said:


> Protesting against what?
> 
> There's a lot of issues here,not just bad layouts and dodgy cycle lanes.


#space4cycling. This was the 3rd person to die on Bow roundabout since the instillation of the 'superhighway'.
It was raised with TFL that this was going to be an issue before it was put into place, but they choose to ignore and installed it anyway.


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## fimm (13 Nov 2013)

Just how angry do you feel?
http://departmentfortransport.wordpress.com/2013/09/26/nazan-fennell-me-you-and-everyones-future/


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## Davidsw8 (13 Nov 2013)

gaz said:


> Info on the protest ride: http://lcc.org.uk/articles/lcc-urge...to-take-immediate-action-to-make-cycling-safe



I guess everyone is looking at it, the site seems to be down...


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## Twelve Spokes (13 Nov 2013)

Damn,can't make it.Working.

Good point there about the traffic light configuration.I made a mistake the first time I used it heading towards Stratford.After proceeding past the cyclist traffic light (at green) I went through the red (about ten yards further on) in front of two policemen who shouted at me.I went back to ask what the problem was and they informed me of what I have done.I don't generally go blasting through red lights even though I was checking to my right for traffic anyway.Im savvy to these lights now but I had done a long (early) shift on the seventh day of work and believe this contributed to my mistake.


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## mr_cellophane (13 Nov 2013)

The "normal" pair of traffic lights at Gant's Hill should have given a clue as to how confusing the ones at Bow would be. I have seen loads of cars pull away from the crossing ones when they turn green and then miss/ignore the red ones for the roundabout.


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## simon.r (13 Nov 2013)

My son has started commuting recently, from Stratford to near Liverpool Street. Is he likely to use this roundabout? He was knocked off his bike by a van on Monday evening (no serious injuries, just a few cuts and bruises), but when I spoke to him he wasn't sure of the exact location (i.e. road names etc).

If Bow roundabout is on his route is it worth avoiding (bearing in mind he is a relatively inexperienced cyclist)? Any locals know of a sensible alternative route?


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## gaz (13 Nov 2013)

simon.r said:


> My son has started commuting recently, from Stratford to near Liverpool Street. Is he likely to use this roundabout? He was knocked off his bike by a van on Monday evening (no serious injuries, just a few cuts and bruises), but when I spoke to him he wasn't sure of the exact location (i.e. road names etc).
> 
> If Bow roundabout is on his route is it worth avoiding (bearing in mind he is a relatively inexperienced cyclist)? Any locals know of a sensible alternative route?


Any alternative is a pretty huge diversion.


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## steveindenmark (13 Nov 2013)

It is terribly sad at any time, even worse this close to Christmas, if that is possible.

I think dishing out blame is premature. Just because we are on a cycling forum it does not follow that we are always right.

Again the need to keep away from large vehicles is made obvious.

As tragic as this all is, it will raise awareness as to the cyclists plight. 

Steve


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## ohnovino (13 Nov 2013)

What is it about Bow roundabout that makes it so dangerous? It is just sheer weight of traffic, or is there something uniquely lethal about the design?


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## spen666 (13 Nov 2013)

simon.r said:


> My son has started commuting recently, from Stratford to near Liverpool Street. Is he likely to use this roundabout? He was knocked off his bike by a van on Monday evening (no serious injuries, just a few cuts and bruises), but when I spoke to him he wasn't sure of the exact location (i.e. road names etc).
> 
> If Bow roundabout is on his route is it worth avoiding (bearing in mind he is a relatively inexperienced cyclist)? Any locals know of a sensible alternative route?




He will almost certainly use this roundabout. I use it everyday going the same route.

I do not know of a safe alternative route. There is possibly one that goes along the canals but I would leave that to someone else to advise about.

I personally use the flyover instead of the roundabout at Bow


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## ianrauk (13 Nov 2013)

ohnovino said:


> What is it about Bow roundabout that makes it so dangerous? It is just sheer weight of traffic, or is there something uniquely lethal about the design?



A flyover, an underpass, and many lanes and junctions of fast and turning busy traffic.
Just check out one of the pics linked.


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## Beebo (13 Nov 2013)

simon.r said:


> If Bow roundabout is on his route is it worth avoiding (bearing in mind he is a relatively inexperienced cyclist)? Any locals know of a sensible alternative route?


He probably does.


ohnovino said:


> What is it about Bow roundabout that makes it so dangerous? It is just sheer weight of traffic, or is there something uniquely lethal about the design?


There are very few east-west routes in that part of London, all of them are major routes, A11, A12, A13, there simply isnt any other viable alternatives. 
The Bow round about is the junction of two dual carriage ways, (urban motorways), so the junction is used by lots of heavy traffic. There is no room for expansion of the juction due to the proximity of the river and buildings, see the photograph I posted above.


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## Mile195 (13 Nov 2013)

Twelve Spokes said:


> Damn,can't make it.Working.
> 
> Good point there about the traffic light configuration.I made a mistake the first time I used it heading towards Stratford.After proceeding past the cyclist traffic light (at green) I went through the red (about ten yards further on) in front of two policemen who shouted at me.I went back to ask what the problem was and they informed me of what I have done.I don't generally go blasting through red lights even though I was checking to my right for traffic anyway.Im savvy to these lights now but I had done a long (early) shift on the seventh day of work and believe this contributed to my mistake.


I've never used the roundabout myself (and think I would probably prefer to stay away from it), but this is a problem in London in general. Far too much street furniture.
I've accidentely run red lights a number of time in the past, particularly where you have, say, a left turn. The lights go green, then immediately after you've turned there's another set of lights that are red for a pedestrian crossing that you can't see properly without looking through the sunroof.

The number of junctions controlled by traffic lights has just exploded over the last decade when at many simple Give Way lines would sometimes do and we now find ourselves in this position that there are so many lights, signs, road markings and such that even the most attentive and careful driver can have trouble taking them all in.

I can't comment on Bow roundabout though. The more I read about it, the more it just sounds like they need to rip the whole thing up and start again.


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## jdtate101 (13 Nov 2013)

If they can't make it safe they need to provide an alternative route that is either low traffic or preferably no traffic. AFAIK (and I don't live in London) the Bow interchange is a bit of a choke point if you are trying to get into the centre from the East? A nearby cycle overpass / footbridge or a like underpass over the A12, that people could take as a safe alternative would solve the problem, but I suppose the simplest ideas are too complicated for our politicians/planners to grasp...


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## Hitchington (13 Nov 2013)

Twelve Spokes said:


> *Protesting against what?*
> 
> There's a lot of issues here,not just bad layouts and dodgy cycle lanes.


 Aggressive motor vehicle drivers. London is riddled with them.


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## Davidsw8 (13 Nov 2013)

I don't know the area either but how do pedestrians negotiate this part of town? Maybe until this problem is sorted, anyone apprehensive could get off and use a pedestrian route just to get through. I know this isn't ideal and why should they walk when there's a road for them to cycle on but this place seems to be a deathtrap and I'd personally lose some moral high ground in order to preserve my safety.

I've gotten off my bike and walked it through the underpass on the south side of the Lambeth Bridge when it's been especially busy a few times now, that and the Vauxhall Bridge area are other parts of town that need some serious safety improvement.


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## Smurfy (13 Nov 2013)

Eight days, four deaths, four additional incidents.


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## Fab Foodie (13 Nov 2013)

YellowTim said:


> Eight days, four deaths, four additional incidents.



I hope Rod Liddle is reading this ....


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## deptfordmarmoset (13 Nov 2013)

YellowTim said:


> Eight days, four deaths, four additional incidents.


I hadn't see a picture of the lorry. Another tipper cull* day on London's roads.

*That's not a pun for laughs, it's something I sometimes need to do....


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## albion (13 Nov 2013)

Couldn't give a fark could they?

Even a 'Severe danger of death' sign would help. 
Some users simply don't know that the chance of it happening is too high to risk it.


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## ianrauk (13 Nov 2013)

This video give you an idea of how crap the roundabout and it's junctions and lights are.
Watch carefully the cyclist in red in front.


View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALXI4alojak


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## subaqua (13 Nov 2013)

one alternative is still closed with a horrible diversion. Greenway to Victoria park

then use the route i do into the city and follow the roads parallel to the canal to the A10 then orsman road pitfield street murray grove micawber street . hopefully this link will show you http://www.strava.com/activities/94632103


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## Monsieur Remings (13 Nov 2013)

Take care London commuters...and yes, it's about time for some non-violent, disruptive direct action. Count me in.


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## deptfordmarmoset (13 Nov 2013)

Monsieur Remings said:


> Take care London commuters...and yes, it's about time for some non-violent, disruptive direct action. Count me in.


I think some violence towards the vehicles is in order. Tyres are vulnerable and expensive....


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## RedRider (13 Nov 2013)

yet another tipper truck. This is getting way beyond coincidence.
i spoke to someone who witnessed the immediate aftermath today but I'll spare the details. they were not looking forward to cycling home via the roundabout. As per Ian's post up thread they mentioned how confusing the lights are. 
just awful. Did anyone make it to the demo?


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## RedRider (13 Nov 2013)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> I think some violence towards the vehicles is in order. Tyres are vulnerable and expensive....


Seriously, without prejudicing this morning's incident I'm beginning to think there really is no place for these trucks on our streets. If that's what it takes then...


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## Beebo (13 Nov 2013)

What route out of east London does fnrttc take when it goes to Southend?
DZ must have scouted a safe route, albeit after midnight reduces the traffic volumes.


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## ianrauk (13 Nov 2013)

Beebo said:


> What route out of east London does fnrttc take when it goes to Southend?
> DZ must have scouted a safe route, albeit after midnight reduces the traffic volumes.




Over the flyover...that time of night it's near deserted.


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## lukesdad (13 Nov 2013)

User13710 said:


> In fact, why not just walk everywhere in London and leave the bike at home? It would be much safer to leave the roads to the lorries and cars - don't they pay more for the privilege, or have I got that wrong?


 I thought you all did anyway, oh no silly me thats your usual riding pace


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## deptfordmarmoset (13 Nov 2013)

RedRider said:


> Seriously, without prejudicing this morning's incident I'm beginning to think there really is no place for these trucks on our streets. If that's what it takes then...


There's room for everyone who shares. But when they take the lion's share, when (tipper trucks, in particular) kill and cyclists are merely collateral damage (pennies for the driver, thousands for the operator, untold grief for the victims and their families) in Traffic flow London, you have to ask when the killing will stop. They're not designed for urban streets. Worse, they're completely unsuitable for urban streets. Statistics show that clearly. And the cost of insurance doesn't work as a disincentive because the cost of the deaths, the emergency treatment, is exported to the families and the NHS. And the law....

An FoI request just revealed that TfL's buses kill or injure one every day (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-24923609). More collateral, though it's not restricted to cyclists. 

I have wondered whether a ''We'll only hold you up when you knock us down'' campaign is overdue. Because it's true when it comes to cyclists. (And I note that the Bow roundabout has been holding up traffic all day since.) But I'm in a more of a ''Drive like *****, get taken off the road like *****'' mood right now.


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## RedRider (13 Nov 2013)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> There's room for everyone who shares. But when they take the lion's share, when (tipper trucks, in particular) kill and cyclists are merely collateral damage (pennies for the driver, thousands for the operator, untold grief for the victims and their families) in Traffic flow London, you have to ask when the killing will stop. They're not designed for urban streets. Worse, they're completely unsuitable for urban streets. Statistics show that clearly. And the cost of insurance doesn't work as a disincentive because the cost of the deaths, the emergency treatment, is exported to the families and the NHS. And the law....
> 
> An FoI request just revealed that TfL's buses kill or injure one every day (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-24923609). More collateral, though it's not restricted to cyclists.
> 
> I have wondered whether a ''We'll only hold you up when you knock us down'' campaign is overdue. Because it's true when it comes to cyclists. (And I note that the Bow roundabout has been holding up traffic all day since.) But I'm in a more of a ''Drive like *****, get taken off the road like *****'' mood right now.


Clearly unsuitable for sharing the roads in this city IMO.


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## totallyfixed (13 Nov 2013)

A change in the law as per cyclists in most of Europe enjoy is the only way forward, the only problem then is getting people to respect and obey the law. Hit a cyclist in Germany, Netherlands, Belgium or Denmark for instance and you are in big trouble, no questions asked.
I used to live in Berlin where quite frankly the drivers are bonkers, but never felt unsafe on my bike.


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## Dina (13 Nov 2013)

Thank you all for caring. It was my sister, Venera Minakhmetova. If some of you were there or might think of any friends being there around the time of accident, please, try to find out as much as you can and write me on dina.minakhmetova@gmail.com . My sister should be the last victim.


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## deptfordmarmoset (13 Nov 2013)

Dina said:


> Thank you all for caring. It was my sister, Venera Minakhmetova. If some of you were there or might think of any friends being there around the time of accident, please, try to find out as much as you can and write me on dina.minakhmetova@gmail.com . My sister should be the last victim.


 My deepest sympathy to you, Dina. I'm afraid I was nowhere near so can't help as a witness but that doesn't make me less angry.


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## deptfordmarmoset (13 Nov 2013)

[QUOTE 2767736, member: 30090"]You try that with a truck tyre and it goes wrong it may well kill you.[/quote]
Don't get it wrong and it's the same.


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## Kies (13 Nov 2013)

Can we stop with the sniping for one day folks - just for today P L E A S E!


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## RedRider (13 Nov 2013)

Dina said:


> Thank you all for caring. It was my sister, Venera Minakhmetova. If some of you were there or might think of any friends being there around the time of accident, please, try to find out as much as you can and write me on dina.minakhmetova@gmail.com . My sister should be the last victim.


Sincere condolences. I'm sending you a private message. You should get a little red flag near the top of your screen to alert you.


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## totallyfixed (13 Nov 2013)

I feel terrible for you and can empathise with what you are going through, I am sure you will receive masses of support from the cycling fraternity, and not just in London, there are a lot of us out there who would have been at the protest tonight but were prevented from doing so by distance. 
This isn't going to go away this time, enough is enough. If there is anything at all we can do as cyclists to help, we will. Some good people to contact are LFGSS [London Fixed Gear & Single Speed], they will definitely respond and help in any way they can.
I personally think another protest should be organised where every cyclist in the country should descend on London and bring the city to a standstill.
Good luck with everything and best wishes.


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## Brandane (13 Nov 2013)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> I think some violence towards the vehicles is in order. Tyres are vulnerable and expensive....


What exactly do you think this might achieve? It might cause some inconvenience and expense to the tipper owner, but not the drivers. Do you honestly think it will stop tippers coming into London? Not a chance, as long as there is a demand for their service, they will be there. How else do you plan on moving bulk quantities of whatever it is they are carrying?

What is happening is tragic, and too much of a coincidence that so many tippers are involved. I don't have the answers I'm afraid, but a campaign of vandalism is not going to work.


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## stowie (13 Nov 2013)

[QUOTE 2767301, member: 30090"]Walk the bike across the junction - job done and no need to divert anywhere.[/quote]

Beano, I don't know if you know the junction, but there are no pedestrian phases on the lights at all. One of the absolutely shameful things about this junction is that there is absolutely no pedestrian access. So wheeling the bike across the junction will still require fine timing between the two sets of lights with both sets of traffic crossing your path. The added problem is that the junction openings are wide to allow vehicles to continue at high speed through the roundabout.

Add in a pedestrian phase which co-incides with a cyclist phase could work (conflict between the two modes would be minimal for reasons I could go into but it would be a bit long winded!) but this won't happen since the traffic flow is prioritised above this. This was the reason why the "early start" (which means cyclists using the cycle lane get a guaranteed red light) was implemented as opposed to cycle lights. Again I know the mechanics of the "early start" since i use Bow often and can go into details but it is difficult to describe without long winded explanations.

Bow is one of those junctions where any pedestrian / cyclist improvement will have to come at the expense of traffic flow. And so far TfL have shown - through their actions - which they believe is more important.

Edit : Pedestrian access is so bad on this junction that pedestrians - especially those with Children and the less mobile will actually catch a bus on one side and disembark on the other. Complete madness.


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## RedRider (13 Nov 2013)

Brandane said:


> What exactly do you think this might achieve? It might cause some inconvenience and expense to the tipper owner, but not the drivers. Do you honestly think it will stop tippers coming into London? Not a chance, as long as there is a demand for their service, they will be there. How else do you plan on moving bulk quantities of whatever it is they are carrying?
> 
> What is happening is tragic, and too much of a coincidence that so many tippers are involved. I don't have the answers I'm afraid, but a campaign of vandalism is not going to work.


Someone posted a design for safer trucks on this site recently. I can't find it I'm afraid. Replacing the existing fleet with something like this would be a massive expense for construction companies and they would need encouragement to do so. Encouragement comes in many forms.


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## stowie (13 Nov 2013)

Dina, my sincere condolences for your loss. I cannot imagine what you are going through.

I use Bow regularly as do quite a few who post on this board. I have been away this week, so cannot help on witnesses, but will be very willing to help put pressure on making these horrible junctions more safe for cycling.


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## buggi (13 Nov 2013)

Dina so sorry for your loss. We all care very deeply and passionately about this.
in my opinion the only way to end this carnage here and all around the country is to simply get rid of super cycle highways and cycle lanes, introduce minimum overtaking distance and presumed liability with minimum prison term. Stop pissing around wasting public money on cycle lanes that do not work and only serve to give drivers some trumped up opinion that we are in their way and they own the frickin road!! And start punishing the drivers who are driving around with their frickin eyes shut.


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## Twelve Spokes (14 Nov 2013)

Hitchington said:


> Aggressive motor vehicle drivers. London is riddled with them.



Well I have always said this to my workmates,compared to cycling in Thailand,where I have just come back from the driving over here can be too damn aggressive and reckless.Over there they are more patient with cyclists,even in Bangkok.Though it's part of their culture I think.


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## deptfordmarmoset (14 Nov 2013)

RedRider said:


> Someone posted a design for safer trucks on this site recently. I can't find it I'm afraid. Replacing the existing fleet with something like this would be a massive expense for construction companies and they would need encouragement to do so. Encouragement comes in many forms.


This? http://lcc.org.uk/articles/lcc-chal...er-urban-lorry-to-reduce-lorry-cyclist-deaths


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## deptfordmarmoset (14 Nov 2013)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b03h6dlx/BBC_London_News_13_11_2013/


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## Fab Foodie (14 Nov 2013)

Dina said:


> Thank you all for caring. It was my sister, Venera Minakhmetova. If some of you were there or might think of any friends being there around the time of accident, please, try to find out as much as you can and write me on dina.minakhmetova@gmail.com . My sister should be the last victim.


Deepest Sympathy to you and your family.
I only hope we can make things better.


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## Crankarm (14 Nov 2013)

gaz said:


> #space4cycling. This was the 3rd person to die on Bow roundabout since the instillation of the 'superhighway'.
> It was raised with TFL that this was going to be an issue before it was put into place, but they choose to ignore and installed it anyway.



What needs to happen now is that TFL are seriously criticised by a Coroner for the provision for cyclists at this junction. Then the estates of the deceased need to sue TFL for negligence meaning they could be liable for millions. TFL will only then pull it's fingers out of it's ar5e and do some thing to end this awful slaughter. Money talks especially if it means you have to pay out huge sums for failing to carry out your duties properly.


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## kerndog (14 Nov 2013)

I do have to wonder if some of these deaths are not the cyclists fault. We all know those arrogant cyclists that think they own the road, cycling obstructively just because they see them selves as better than everyone else because they cycle. Or maybe just bad judgement on the cyclists part... its not always the vehicles fault


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## RedRider (14 Nov 2013)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> This? http://lcc.org.uk/articles/lcc-chal...er-urban-lorry-to-reduce-lorry-cyclist-deaths


That's the one. We've sent rockets to Mars so this should be easy.


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## Mile195 (14 Nov 2013)

Crankarm said:


> What needs to happen now is that TFL are seriously criticised by a Coroner for the provision for cyclists at this junction. Then the estates of the deceased need to sue TFL for negligence meaning they could be liable for millions. TFL will only then pull it's fingers out of it's ar5e and do some thing to end this awful slaughter. Money talks especially if it means you have to pay out huge sums for failing to carry out your duties properly.


I'm not sure that's really a way forward. TFL can't be held completely responsible for the design of the junction. Admittedly from the video above it's definitely lacking, but the heart of the problem is that the junction was only ever designed for motor vehicles and there's only so much you can retrofit and redesign to improve facilities for cyclists for something built 40 years ago.

Indeed money talks, but if TFL were found liable for millions, it's only money that would then be pulled out of other budgets (including cycling) next year. In a way, I think everybody would lose then.

Somebody else mentioned a seperate footbridge or overpass for cyclists. That would certainly be money well spent by the looks of it.


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## Origamist (14 Nov 2013)

kerndog said:


> I do have to wonder if some of these deaths are not the cyclists fault. We all know those arrogant cyclists that think they own the road, cycling obstructively just because they see them selves as better than everyone else because they cycle. Or maybe just bad judgement on the cyclists part... its not always the vehicles fault


 
Could you not pollute a rider down thread with this victim blaming rubbish - particularly one where the sister of the victim has posted. Please, show some compassion and human decency.


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## Twelve Spokes (14 Nov 2013)

kerndog said:


> I do have to wonder if some of these deaths are not the cyclists fault. We all know those arrogant cyclists that think they own the road, cycling obstructively just because they see them selves as better than everyone else because they cycle. Or maybe just bad judgement on the cyclists part... its not always the vehicles fault



Whatever I think of cyclists sometimes I don't know if I want to believe even red light jumpers think they are better than everyone else and believe me I don't particularly like RLJers but generally tolerate it.Perhaps they don't think or see the risks.(it wont happen to the syndrome).I see lots of dodgy behaviour of filtering up buses and lorries and must get to the front at lights.Some is inexperience.When you have a dodgy return you generally tend to change your behaviour.I just go for the quiet life now and take my time.

Im not accusing anyone in these incidents because we don't actually know the circumstances.


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## RedRider (14 Nov 2013)

kerndog said:


> I do have to wonder if some of these deaths are not the cyclists fault. We all know those arrogant cyclists that think they own the road, cycling obstructively just because they see them selves as better than everyone else because they cycle. Or maybe just bad judgement on the cyclists part... its not always the vehicles fault


People make bad judgements all the time no matter how they move around but it's always the heavy vehicle that inflicts the damage.


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## deptfordmarmoset (14 Nov 2013)

Origamist said:


> Could you not pollute a rider down thread with this victim blaming rubbish - particularly one where the sister of the victim has posted. Please, show some compassion and human decency.


Though, to be fair, a few of us, not least myself, have been guilty of discussing the problems caused by the junction and road behaviour on here. We should have started a parallel thread over in commuting, I suppose.


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## Markymark (14 Nov 2013)

I saw a cyclist this moirning on my commute undertake (no cycle lane) a tipper truck that was indicating to turn left as they both approached the lights. He (I assume he) managed to see her depsite around the blind spot and avoided hitting her. I caught up with her and said that was incredibly lucky and dangerous of her, especially after all the incidents of the last few days. She called me lots of names. I don't mind, I'm thick skinned, but I just hope that maybe she'll think twice about doing it next time. It really could have been another fatality. Cyclist need to be aware around such vehicles as so often these vehicles dont care about vunerable road users. Luckily, this time, one did.


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## Davidsw8 (14 Nov 2013)

To blame a victim seems a pretty futile, if they made a one-off mistake or if they habitually cycle inconsiderately then they've paid for it with their life but it's as much of a tragedy as if they did everything right.

The Bow roundabout aside, there are many problems on London's roads and the majority of these can be solved instantly and cost nothing - if EVERYONE on the roads followed the Highway Code and acted like decent, respectful human beings, we'd all be a lot less stressed and there'd be a massive reduction in injuries and fatalities.

Seriously, I know there are going to be some exceptions, but can't most problems be solved by simply being considerate and doing the right thing?


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## steveindenmark (14 Nov 2013)

Looking at that video clip, it looks like the cyclist jumped the second light into the oncoming lorry. 

It is not all about bad vehicle drivers. There are enough awful cyclists around as well. The only way to solve this problem is to separate cyclists and lorries/buses. How they do that in London is anyone's guess.

But it does nobody any good at all pointing the finger before all the facts are known. I certainly would not trust the newspapers to report the facts.

We have people on here talking about cutting tyres. How childish is that? Some people need to grow up.

Steve


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## 4F (14 Nov 2013)

steveindenmark said:


> Looking at that video clip, it looks like the cyclist jumped the second light into the oncoming lorry.
> 
> It is not all about bad vehicle drivers. There are enough awful cyclists around as well. The only way to solve this problem is to separate cyclists and lorries/buses. How they do that in London is anyone's guess.
> 
> ...



Or the lorry jumped the light into the cyclist, I would agree that it would be best to wait until the facts are known.

RIP Venera.


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## HLaB (14 Nov 2013)

I think this is one of the most depressing threads I've ever read


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## gaz (14 Nov 2013)

HLaB said:


> I think this is one of the most depressing threads I've ever read


It gets worse, another rider was killed last night on the same road as the one in the morning.


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## HLaB (14 Nov 2013)

gaz said:


> It gets worse, another rider was killed last night on the same road as the one in the morning.


 Like but dont like, I read about one cyclist getting hit by a bus in South Croydon and a hit and run by a truck outside the city


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## Crankarm (14 Nov 2013)

Mile195 said:


> I'm not sure that's really a way forward. TFL can't be held completely responsible for the design of the junction. Admittedly from the video above it's definitely lacking, but the heart of the problem is that the junction was only ever designed for motor vehicles and there's only so much you can retrofit and redesign to improve facilities for cyclists for something built 40 years ago.
> 
> Indeed money talks, but if TFL were found liable for millions, it's only money that would then be pulled out of other budgets (including cycling) next year. In a way, I think everybody would lose then.
> 
> Somebody else mentioned a seperate footbridge or overpass for cyclists. That would certainly be money well spent by the looks of it.



Eh??? You contradict yourself sir.

TFL has a duty of care to road users of this junction as the body now responsible for it's design. The fact that so many cyclists have been killed here MAY well put them ON NOTICE and the fact that they APPEAR to have done little to make it safer, even though cyclists are STILL being killed here, COULD be viewed as negligence. I think a case brought against them by the estate(s) of the deceased(s) against them will be the only way to get them to do something to improve safety for cyclists and peds using this junction. Looking at the pic posted by Beebo why can't the railings be removed and cyclists be permitted to use the pavement? There could be a cycle phased controlled crossing to allow cyclists to cross the road whilst traffic is stationary. Alternatively a separate segregated cycle lane with a high kerb to prevent vehicles crossing into the cycle lane as they negotiate the roundabout.


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## Amanda P (14 Nov 2013)

I heard about this spate of fatal collisions on the radio yesterday. That's the first time I've *ever* heard a news item concerning fatal collisions other than multi-vehicle motorway pile-ups.

I'm almost in tears reading all this, and very, very angry that there could be a junction like this anywhere with no provision for anyone not driving to cross it. Does not being in control of a motor vehicle make us sub-human, that we have to put our lives at the mercy of those who are? 

And it brings it all closer to home when a close relative of a victim chips in - thankyou so much for that, Dina. We sometimes need to be reminded that victims are not just statistics - they're someone's sister or mother or father or son or best mate...

The one chink of light is that the national media are starting to report these incidents. If people are constantly reminded, and can no longer pretend they're not happening, perhaps we'll finally begin to change attitudes and things will improve. Perhaps the time is approaching when an Amsterdam Museumplein-style protest in London will be appropriate and effective.


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## Linford (14 Nov 2013)

5 riders in 2 weeks....I'm normally a bit nonchalant about this sort of thing, but 5 riders in a couple of weeks....not good

I'm wondering if it is the time of year which is effecting things. We had 3 car users die in 2 different accidents on the same road on a single morning last week just above Gloucester.

I know there has been claims in the past that more cyclists actually make the roads safer for cyclists, but this is contradictory to the claims that there are 3 times as many cyclists in London now as there was 10 years ago....which one is right ?


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## ttcycle (14 Nov 2013)

Guys, posting as a moderator, can we bring this back on track and not trade personal insults? 
Cycling deaths are an emotive subject but please remember that on occasion relatives and friends of the cyclist might happen across this forum so please be respectful.


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## Buddfox (14 Nov 2013)

steveindenmark said:


> Looking at that video clip, it looks like the cyclist jumped the second light into the oncoming lorry.
> 
> It is not all about bad vehicle drivers. There are enough awful cyclists around as well. The only way to solve this problem is to separate cyclists and lorries/buses. How they do that in London is anyone's guess.
> 
> ...



They did... but the point is it's very confusingly laid out. Most road users don't expect a red light 3 metres further on from a light that has just changed green, so they assume (quite naturally IMHO) that the second red light is equivalent to the red light for the cars and just set at a position which allows it to be seen further back in traffic. Combined with the aggressive sequencing which sees an instant change for the traffic coming from the right, what has been created is an incredibly dangerous junction for cyclists and one where, even if a cyclist did run the red light, they could legitimately be claimed not to be at fault if they are hit by a vehicle coming from the right.


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## ManiaMuse (14 Nov 2013)

simon.r said:


> I'm wondering if it is the time of year which is effecting things. We had 3 car users die in 2 different accidents on the same road on a single morning last week just above Gloucester.


I think the time of year is definitely a factor. Last week the schools were back and the weather was fairly miserable so lots of people are back in their cars. Not a good combination in conjunction with the clocks going back catching out cyclists with no lights/cars with lights out.

People take a while to get used to driving/cycling in these conditions, especially at dawn/dusk. I've noticed the sun is at a very awkward angle in the sky as well when I commute in the morning.


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## jefmcg (14 Nov 2013)

ttcycle said:


> Guys, posting as a moderator, can we bring this back on track and not trade personal insults?
> Cycling deaths are an emotive subject but please remember that on occasion relatives and friends of the cyclist might happen across this forum so please be respectful.



We have a relative here on page 3, Dina, the victims sister. 

Under those circumstance, I think the more hostile responses should be purged, or spun off into a separate thread.

Dina, my heart goes out to you and your family. And your sister.


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## Platinum (14 Nov 2013)

If it doesn't take these tragic events of the last few days to spark Stop the Kindermort-type protests, then what will? How many deaths is the point when enough is finally enough?


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## Smurfy (14 Nov 2013)

I'm afraid BoJo appears to be out of his tree.

I don't live in London, but if I did I'd be well up for a protest every evening for the next month until our politicians take notice.


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## Mile195 (14 Nov 2013)

Crankarm said:


> Eh??? You contradict yourself sir.
> 
> TFL has a duty of care to road users of this junction as the body now responsible for it's design. The fact that so many cyclists have been killed here MAY well put them ON NOTICE and the fact that they APPEAR to have done little to make it safer, even though cyclists are STILL being killed here, COULD be viewed as negligence. I think a case brought against them by the estate(s) of the deceased(s) against them will be the only way to get them to do something to improve safety for cyclists and peds using this junction. Looking at the pic posted by Beebo why can't the railings be removed and cyclists be permitted to use the pavement? There could be a cycle phased controlled crossing to allow cyclists to cross the road whilst traffic is stationary. Alternatively a separate segregated cycle lane with a high kerb to prevent vehicles crossing into the cycle lane as they negotiate the roundabout.



I take your points. As I say, I don't really know the junction so I'm not that qualified to comment. I'd just hate to see money get taken out of future cycling budgets to cover compensation claims (no matter how deserved), but maybe that wouldn't be the case and it would come from insurers.
The best way to move forward now though seems to be to learn as much as possible from this and try to prevent any further casualties. It's still astounding how there were so many incidents in just one day. I've just seen there was another one late last night too. Quite shocking really. Makes me feel I ought to take the quiet route home tonight.


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## albion (14 Nov 2013)

YellowTim said:


> I'm afraid BoJo appears to be out of his tree.
> 
> I don't live in London, but if I did I'd be well up for a protest every evening for the next month until our politicians take notice.


I thought you had heard the same interview I heard.
He was telling us the good news about deaths going down, later throwing in the word 'percentage'.

I sometimes think the problem with protests is that politicians often see them as a challenge to their ego rather than a call to move safety forwards.


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## deptfordmarmoset (14 Nov 2013)

[QUOTE 2769000, member: 9609"]This is an incredibly bad idea; A truck is not like a car where it is obvious you have a flat, damage a tyre on twin wheel at the rear of an eight wheeler and the driver may not realise, that damaged tyre could fail or cause another failure when the truck is at speed or cornering - the consequences may not be what you intended.

May be a way forward would be to put pressure on the construction companies that hire in the tippers to ensure the tippers are driven without incident. In the same way publicans can be held responsible for idiots causing problems near their pubs, some responsibility should be put on the developers to ensure their hauliers are the best and safest money can buy[/quote]
I've gone on protest rides, written letters to MPs, signed petitions, done all the legal stuff. Result 5 dead in 9 days. It's not meant to be a ''good idea,'' it's an idea born of desperation, and as such is appropriate to the carnage down here. But I'll not discuss at any further on a public forum.


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## ComedyPilot (14 Nov 2013)

RIP....


Again.


Getting a little bit sick of this.......

When will our supposed leaders do ANYTHING to protect us?


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## subaqua (14 Nov 2013)

[QUOTE 2769000, member: 9609"]This is an incredibly bad idea; A truck is not like a car where it is obvious you have a flat, damage a tyre on twin wheel at the rear of an eight wheeler and the driver may not realise, that damaged tyre could fail or cause another failure when the truck is at speed or cornering - the consequences may not be what you intended.

*May be a way forward would be to put pressure on the construction companies that hire in the tippers to ensure the tippers are driven without incident. In the same way publicans can be held responsible for idiots causing problems near their pubs, some responsibility should be put on the developers to ensure their hauliers are the best and safest money can buy*[/quote]
responsible constructors like the one I work for do do this. there is also the FORS scheme run by TfL which you need to be a member of to work for most of the MCG ( main contractor group) Member companies.

its knee jerk reactions that cause long term problems but something does need to be done. I wish i knew what.

the justice system taking deaths and injuries and incidents involving cyclists seriously and using the powers available .

kill a cyclist get a caution , kill a dog get 6 months inside.

The suggestion of banning lorries to night time _may_ save a life but I doubt it , and do those cycling at night have any less right to life than those cycling in the day. If you move construction lorries to night then you will need sites to work nights and that means people getting into work at night. guess what. they include cyclists. and what next ban Buses at night too as they have killed a large proportion of the cyclists too.

you also have the issue of the Pollution act which prohibits noisy works at night such as loading a tipper. we cant fart after 6pm without the local residents kicking off. Thats in the centre of the city where not many people live in the grand scheme of things. try that in a residential area and its just not going to happen.

don't suggest the load up during the day and drive them at night - there is nowhere to park that amount of vehicles on a site and still be able to work. How far do take the rules on which company is responsible. You can have company A having spoil removed and company B receiving it using Lorry X . where does the responsibility lie - equally ? love to see the legals arguing that one out in court.

One death is too many, but this many on one stretch of road leads me to believe that its not just the road users that need to be looked at ( and that includes EVERYBODY) bu the actua infrastructure itself.

No responsible designer should be content with something that is leading to so many fatalities without wanting an independent review if only to show they are not at fault. and by independent I mean truly independent.


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## mark st1 (14 Nov 2013)

subaqua said:


> responsible constructors like the one I work for do do this. there is also the FORS scheme run by TfL which you need to be a member of to work for most of the MCG ( main contractor group) Member companies.



http://www.keltbray.com/news/keltbray-achieves-fors-gold

Dont think much of the scheme tbh. Shocked at the amount of accidents in the last few days. When they are making top billing on national radio surely the powers that be have to act.

RIP to the deceased.


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## MattyKo (14 Nov 2013)

Exceeding *SORRY* to hear of a *further* death of a person that always comes off the worse following contact with those that are in (and also on a lesser extent "on") motorised vehicles, in any adverse traffic event. (Not really accidents and collisions most definitely not).

As mentioned previously following the MILE END incident I hope that a serious discussion shall be listened to about the simple answers available to us to reduce and prevent future traffic events resulting in the same or similar consequences.

I understand from The Guardian newspaper either the Mayor or someone from TFL is already suggesting that although no conversation can express the sympathies to the families of those that have recently "passed" whilst travelling in the capital on a cycle, the figures for the year should be viewed with consideration to the threefold increase in cycle traffic over the past few years. 

As great as it is to see people on cycles (as great as it is to get onto a cycle); are all motorised vehicle journeys necessary, and are the goods vehicle drivers sufficiently aware and considerate to those that employ two feet to get about, rather than two feet to press pedals in vehicles they neither own nor bare the cost to insure.


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## Linford (14 Nov 2013)

If this were a pothole, then the highways would have a duty of care to put it right once notified, and if they failed to do that, then the would be left wide open for litigation.

This sounds like a duty of care issue now where they are concerned. They clearly need to look again at this one


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## Louie (14 Nov 2013)

I don't want it to look like I'm jumping to anyone's defence, but I drive around central London every day in a Tesco artic and feel like I really need eyes in the back of my head and up my a**e to be able to keep tabs on all the cyclists these days. We really need segregated lanes for bikes with a physical barrier so that these tragedy's become a thing of the past. It's great that so many people have taken up cycling (I'm one of them) but it seems that the infrastructure just isn't there to give cyclists the space and safety that they need.
Drove past the scene at Aldgate at 3am this morning where yet another cyclist had been killed and it made me wonder whether I really want to keep on chancing it myself when I'm out cycling.
So sad..........


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## gaz (14 Nov 2013)

HLaB said:


> Like but dont like, I read about one cyclist getting hit by a bus in South Croydon and a hit and run by a truck outside the city


Do you have a source on the one in South Croydon?
There was a cyclist by east croydon station that was hit by a bus on tuesday and unfortunately he died.


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## htid (14 Nov 2013)

gaz said:


> Do you have a source on the one in South Croydon?
> There was a cyclist by east croydon station that was hit by a bus on tuesday and unfortunately he died.



I'd like to know this too, as I also live in South Croydon and haven't heard anything. Croydon Guardian hasn't got anything either. Think he must mean East Croydon.


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## Linford (14 Nov 2013)

htid said:


> I'd like to know this too, as I also live in South Croydon and haven't heard anything. Croydon Guardian hasn't got anything either. Think he must mean East Croydon.



do they mean this one ?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-24910969


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## simon.r (14 Nov 2013)

simon.r said:


> My son has started commuting recently, from Stratford to near Liverpool Street. Is he likely to use this roundabout? He was knocked off his bike by a van on Monday evening (no serious injuries, just a few cuts and bruises), but when I spoke to him he wasn't sure of the exact location (i.e. road names etc).
> 
> If Bow roundabout is on his route is it worth avoiding (bearing in mind he is a relatively inexperienced cyclist)? Any locals know of a sensible alternative route?



Well, this has hit home. I've been talking to my son over the last few days and he has now confirmed that he was knocked off about 200 yards before the flyover (heading East) on Monday evening. It seems as if a van side-swiped him as it was swapping lanes from right to left, despite the fact that he was riding perfectly correctly on the left of the road. Fortunately he didn't suffer any serious injuries, but it could have been worse...

He's had the police around to take a statement but they're not going to take any action against the driver. What a surprise

He tells me that he rides over the flyover (rather than round the roundabout) as he sees lots of other cyclists do that and he thinks it's the safest way. I don't know the area at all so can't comment on that. 

Although my son's 24 and big and ugly enough to take care of himself it does bring home to me the fact that the poor young lady who died will have left grieving relatives and friends. My sincere condolences.


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## deptfordmarmoset (14 Nov 2013)

simon.r said:


> Well, this has hit home. I've been talking to my son over the last few days and he has now confirmed that he was knocked off about 200 yards before the flyover (heading East) on Monday evening. It seems as if a van side-swiped him as it was swapping lanes from right to left, despite the fact that he was riding perfectly correctly on the left of the road. Fortunately he didn't suffer any serious injuries, but it could have been worse...
> 
> He's had the police around to take a statement but they're not going to take any action against the driver. What a surprise
> 
> ...


That by far is the safest way, though in the past I've come across a string of speeding vehicles turning left making it impossible to get out of the left hand lane. Even then, being forced round the roundabout is safe enough if your riding is safe enough.


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## HLaB (14 Nov 2013)

gaz said:


> Do you have a source on the one in South Croydon?
> There was a cyclist by east croydon station that was hit by a bus on tuesday and unfortunately he died.


As bad as it sounds but hopefully its the same one and bad reporting :-(


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## gaz (14 Nov 2013)

It's been asked before, can people please not bicker over things in this thread. Especially about things that are not relevant with this incident.

In case you missed it, a family member of the cyclist has posted in this thread.


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## Shaun (15 Nov 2013)

Yes, please keep posts in this thread on topic. If any of you would like to discuss other incidents please post in the respective threads or start a new one.

Many thanks,
Shaun


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## Crankarm (15 Nov 2013)

Are there any white bikes at Bow Roundabout as memorials to the fallen? If not there should be, quite a few.


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## subaqua (15 Nov 2013)

mark st1 said:


> http://www.keltbray.com/news/keltbray-achieves-fors-gold
> 
> Dont think much of the scheme tbh. Shocked at the amount of accidents in the last few days. When they are making top billing on national radio surely the powers that be have to act.
> 
> RIP to the deceased.


 wre all of the last incidents by Keltbray ?

Not victim blaming or trying to defend any hauliers but nobody drives perfectlt 100% . even me. I try but it is impossible to be 100% at everything all the time.


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## Twelve Spokes (15 Nov 2013)

RedRider said:


> People make bad judgements all the time no matter how they move around but it's always the heavy vehicle that inflicts the damage.





subaqua said:


> wre all of the last incidents by Keltbray ?
> 
> Not victim blaming or trying to defend any hauliers but nobody drives perfectlt 100% . even me. I try but it is impossible to be 100% at everything all the time.



Same with my cycling.I try to be perfect but i know im not and make misjudgements and mistakes.


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## Davidsw8 (15 Nov 2013)

Louie said:


> I don't want it to look like I'm jumping to anyone's defence, but I drive around central London every day in a Tesco artic and feel like I really need eyes in the back of my head and up my a**e to be able to keep tabs on all the cyclists these days. We really need segregated lanes for bikes with a physical barrier so that these tragedy's become a thing of the past. It's great that so many people have taken up cycling (I'm one of them) but it seems that the infrastructure just isn't there to give cyclists the space and safety that they need.
> Drove past the scene at Aldgate at 3am this morning where yet another cyclist had been killed and it made me wonder whether I really want to keep on chancing it myself when I'm out cycling.
> So sad..........


 
I think there is room for massive improvement in the behaviour of everyone who uses the roads but I tend to agree with you here Louie. When I've been on buses going through Central London and the driver has half a dozen cyclists within inches of both sides of the bus, I think it's a miracle that at least one of them doesn't get at least knocked.

I really don't know if segregation is the answer but cyclists are so vulnerable and the competancy of them varies so wildly maybe it is the way to go.


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## gaz (15 Nov 2013)

Crankarm said:


> Are there any white bikes at Bow Roundabout as memorials to the fallen? If not there should be, quite a few.


To my knowledge there are none at bow.

A ghost bike was put in place in Croydon last year to remember the fatality that we had. However the council removed it


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## Crankarm (15 Nov 2013)

gaz said:


> To my knowledge there are none at bow.
> 
> A ghost bike was put in place in Croydon last year to remember the fatality that we had. However the council removed it



Thanks Gaz. There should be a memorial though the number of lives that have been lost here. Bow Roundabout Cemetery.

I just hope TFL or the Highways Agency get sued as they are clearly failing in their duty of care to make the junction safe for cyclists and other vulnerable road users to use.


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## Crankarm (15 Nov 2013)

3 cyclists now named. http://road.cc/content/news/99044-b...named-venera-minakhmetova-stewart-gandy-roger

So sad. RIP.


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## kmcyc (16 Nov 2013)

I arrived at the Bow Roundabout that morning about 20 minutes after the accident happened. A terribly sad day. I found it difficult to concentrate on anything else for most of it, particularly once I read the news. Only two weeks before at that same location I had a near miss with a lorry who failed to stop for their red signal: 
View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMtxGrfUdTU
. I have written to my MP, Boris, TfL, DfT, CTC, British Cycling requesting a review of the CS2 Extension design so that cyclists can again access the Flyover and have asked for a review on the restriction of the movement of large vehicles during peak travel hours. Lessons must be learned from the spate of tragedies that have happened this month.


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## Dina (17 Nov 2013)

Thank you all for your support. I wrote to reporters and I believe some witnesses will come forward.

kmcyc, I am glad you are all right, you are very lucky. Thank you a lot for being so active. I wish they had an opportunity to seriously consider these concerns before death of Venera.


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## glenn forger (17 Nov 2013)

You are not alone Dina, twenty five thousand people have now signed the petition.


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## glenn forger (17 Nov 2013)

http://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/save-our-cyclists


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## Bromptonaut (17 Nov 2013)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> My deepest sympathy to you, Dina. I'm afraid I was nowhere near so can't help as a witness but that doesn't make me less angry.


.Me too


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## Davidsw8 (18 Nov 2013)

glenn forger said:


> http://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/save-our-cyclists



Just signed and posted to facebook. Is 30,000 the minimum after which it can be submitted to Boris?


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## glenn forger (18 Nov 2013)

Interesting comment on the victim-blaming we're seeing:



> Often these details don't emerge until the inquest. The Evening Standard does a good job of reporting them for London deaths.
> 
> There's often a 'fog of war' effect here too. For example, there have been reports that shortly before being hit by a bus, the chap who was hit on November 13 and died in the small hours of November 14, had ridden the wrong way out of Leman Street. But it's not clear if that had anything to do with the collision, and the source is TfL, whose representatives were reported to be extremely robust in their defence of the original Cycle Superhighway design of Bow roundabout at the inquest in the death of Brian Dorling. TfL was warned by London Cycling Campaign and their own engineering consultants that the design of CS2 was dangerous, but they built it anyway.
> 
> ...



http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/nov/17/cyclists-dead-london-roads-safer?commentpage=1


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## albion (18 Nov 2013)

'Next to plastic bollards and white tape printed with, "Police inner cordon", one note reads..
"RIP to the lady killed here this morning and thoughts go to her family. TfL, you are to blame for this … The CS2 is not safe and you have allowed cyclists to die needlessly!! Shame on you." '


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## theclaud (18 Nov 2013)




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## Danny (18 Nov 2013)

Not Bow Roundabout, but another cyclist was killed in London today - see here.


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## albion (18 Nov 2013)

"More than 100 cyclists were stopped at Vauxhall Bridge Road over "concerns about their behaviour" such as cutting corners or wearing headphones while riding."

You really do wonder about the timing of this.


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## deptfordmarmoset (18 Nov 2013)

albion said:


> "More than 100 cyclists were stopped at Vauxhall Bridge Road over "concerns about their behaviour" such as cutting corners or wearing headphones while riding."
> 
> You really do wonder about the timing of this.


Is the quote on its own? I'm not sure what your source is. The Met Police's press statement is here - http://www.met.police.uk/pressbureau/Bur18/page10.htm and contains a fair bit more. I have to admit though that their press release about the man who died under a bus in Whitechapel ends with ''The cyclist was not wearing a helmet at the time of the collision.'' It's a _putain_ bus, for God's sake, what helmet is going to withstand that?


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## albion (18 Nov 2013)

Did you not 'see here' ?


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## deptfordmarmoset (18 Nov 2013)

albion said:


> Did you not 'see here' ?


Yes, I'd read that, it's just that I've read so much about events surrounding it that I didn't remember the source you were using. I think though that the Met link is where the quote was cut and pasted from.


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## Crankarm (18 Nov 2013)

albion said:


> "More than 100 cyclists were stopped at Vauxhall Bridge Road over "concerns about their behaviour" such as cutting corners or wearing headphones while riding."
> 
> You really do wonder about the timing of this.



Errr ......... no. I think the Police may be just as concerned as us cyclists about OUR SAFETY and the high loss of cyclist's lives recently. Here is the full text from which you cherry picked. I am sure the Police take no comfort from attending RTAs where a cyclist has been seriously injured / killed.




> The fatality came as Metropolitan Police traffic officers gave road safety advice to cyclists and more than 70 lorry drivers at Vauxhall Bridge Road, Whitechapel High Street and Albert Embankment.
> 
> More than 100 cyclists were stopped at Vauxhall Bridge Road over "concerns about their behaviour" such as cutting corners or wearing headphones while riding.
> 
> ...


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## albion (18 Nov 2013)

BBC.

As a quote from within the link prior it logically already acknowledged the source.


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## albion (18 Nov 2013)

Crankarm said:


> ...Here is the full text from which you cherry picked....


Yes I cherry picked but waiting a while before giving cyclists a talking to would inflame matters less. And that arse Boris was also playing the crowd hinting at 'they are to blame'. 

On one of my routes I have some I say 'no go' to. For safety reasons the council can't proclaim my narrow footpath alternative as a cycle route. But at least they are not stupid enough to make the dual carriageway a cycleway.


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## Crankarm (18 Nov 2013)

albion said:


> Yes I cherry picked but waiting a while before giving cyclists a talking to would inflame matters less. And that arse Boris was also playing the crowd hinting at 'they are to blame'.
> 
> On one of my routes I have some I say 'no go' to. For safety reasons the council can't proclaim my narrow footpath alternative as a cycle route. But at least they are not stupid enough to make the dual carriageway a cycleway.



Ehh? You mean police should wait a few days, a few weeks, a few months, how ever long would be needed so certain people, people like you, wouldn't become inflamed before giving them advice that just MIGHT save yours and others lives in the meantime. Wow, that would be callous! As much as I have been very critical of the police in the past they are trying to do something to improve things for cyclists with the limited resources they have. Presumably a police presence at hazardous junctions in itself would hopefully deter dangerous, reckless or careless driving or cycling and prevent further cyclists injuries and deaths. This has got to be a good thing.


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## albion (18 Nov 2013)

So have equally important safety 'danger' advice notices gone up at these death junctions?

In the exact place where it really matters.


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## deptfordmarmoset (18 Nov 2013)

Rightly or wrongly, police policy was to hit all road users. Advice to cyclists, advice to drivers in ASZs, and nicks for illegal truckers, all at the same time.


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## albion (27 Jan 2014)

Well, they apparently now have advance low level lights at Bow now.

Sadly this also means you can get a head start straight into the path of oncoming vehicle red light jumpers.


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## martint235 (27 Jan 2014)

albion said:


> Well, they apparently now have advance low level lights at Bow now.
> 
> Sadly this also means you can get a head start straight into the path of oncoming vehicle red light jumpers.


 Or they could look to their right before setting off......


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## albion (27 Jan 2014)

What changes to the existing proven dangers have been achieved.
How many deaths were caused by setting off too early or too late?

Is it just a placebo until the next fatality here?
Lots of questions.


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## albion (29 Jan 2014)

Not just me thinking it is as much a cosmetic addition.

http://www.itv.com/news/london/2014-01-27/fundamental-flaw-at-londons-first-cycle-light-junction/


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## stowie (29 Jan 2014)

martint235 said:


> Or they could look to their right before setting off......



Trouble is that you look right, wait for the red light jumping traffic from the right to clear by which time the traffic behind you has set off and you get left hooked by cars going onto the A12 northbound.

The fundamental flaw with the junction set up is that the "early start" is simply a deep ASL where the lights at the front of the ASL go green moments before the others. Get cars in the ASL or some f*ckw*t deciding to gun it hard and the cyclists will get left hooked. I have a video of a motorcyclist doing exactly this. Add to this that as more people use the lights then anyone not off very quickly (or at the back of the queue) will be still in the path of left turning cars.

This whole set up is a horrible mess. TfL act as if the junction, by some law of nature, is dangerous, but this isn't really true. The junction is a mess because TfL are prioritising motor traffic flow at the junction over cycling, and ignoring pedestrians completely. The solution of having a cycle and pedestrian only phase of the lights would work but would diminish motorised throughput and therefore TfL come up with this weird scheme that had a forest of lights beforehand. Adding in even more lights at a slightly different height isn't likely to make matters much better.


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## martint235 (29 Jan 2014)

So wouldn't it be better just left as a roundabout with lights? So if you're cycling and heading straight across you head for a suitable lane rather than sticking to the left on the blue tarmac thereby risking left turning traffic? Or better still put in a dedicated, segregated left turn lane for cars as has been done at other roundabouts?


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