# Bike storage at work... who's liable for damage?



## MontyVeda (10 Sep 2019)

Hypothetical question. 

We used to store our bikes in the boiler room, but apparently we can't because of H&S so we've been storing them in the staff canteen until today. 

Now the area manager says we have to store them in the warehouse where they'll be more at risk to damage from day to day work going on around them. The next time i see the area manager I'll share my concerns with him and make it perfectly clear that if my bike has to be stored in the warehouse, it's stored at my employers risk rather than my own... question is, where does the liability actually lie?


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## Drago (10 Sep 2019)

Why is the warehouse considered a less risky storage arrangement than the boiler room?


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## DCLane (10 Sep 2019)

How busy is the warehouse? Where's it being stored?

When I worked in one the agreement was that the bike would go into a quiet storage area away from the main access.

Liability-wise it's probably not down to them I'm afraid, just as a car in the car park isn't.


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## MontyVeda (10 Sep 2019)

Drago said:


> Why is the warehouse considered a less risky storage arrangement than the boiler room?


no idea.... i think the H&S thing about the boiler room is nonsense.


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## Slick (10 Sep 2019)

MontyVeda said:


> no idea.... i think the H&S thing about the boiler room is nonsense.


Almost definitely. You could ask for a dedicated storage facility. Probably the least an employer could do, especially if they have a car park.


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## Slow But Determined (10 Sep 2019)

The heat from the boiler might melt a carbon bike….......


Fetches tin hat!


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## MontyVeda (10 Sep 2019)

DCLane said:


> How busy is the warehouse? Where's it being stored?
> 
> When I worked in one the agreement was that the bike would go into a quiet storage area away from the main access.
> 
> Liability-wise it's probably not down to them I'm afraid, just as a car in the car park isn't.


there's nowhere out of the way in the warehouse. It's very small and as xmas approaches, we can barely fit all the stock in it. 

They're best stored in the boiler room, out of the way, safe and secure. 
If I'm forced to store it where it might get damaged and it does get damaged, I'll be putting a claim in and we'll see what happens. Hopefully, having a word with the area manager and pointing out that a buckled wheel will cost £100 and a damaged frame will cost upwards of £1500 will stop him from being a nobber. He likes flexing his managerial muscles every now and than, and this is just another one of his moments.


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## MontyVeda (10 Sep 2019)

Slick said:


> Almost definitely. You could ask for a dedicated storage facility. Probably the least an employer could do, especially if they have a car park.


They can't even park cars in the car park, that's for customers. The drivers park in the car park of a restaurant next door
No chance of a dedicated storage facility. The shop's being knocked down next year. Hopefully the new store will have something better.


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## Slick (10 Sep 2019)

MontyVeda said:


> there's nowhere out of the way in the warehouse. It's very small and as xmas approaches, we can barely fit all the stock in it.
> 
> They're best stored in the boiler room, out of the way, safe and secure.
> If I'm forced to store it where it might get damaged and it does get damaged, I'll be putting a claim in and we'll see what happens. Hopefully, having a word with the area manager and pointing out that a buckled wheel will cost £100 and a damaged frame will cost upwards of £1500 will stop him from being a nobber. He likes flexing his managerial muscles every now and than, and this is just another one of his moments.


How often is the area manager in?


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## Slick (10 Sep 2019)

MontyVeda said:


> They can't even park cars in the car park, that's for customers. The drivers park in the car park of a restaurant next door
> No chance of a dedicated storage facility. The shop's being knocked down next year. Hopefully the new store will have something better.


Ah, my manager tried to take my storage spot off me at my workplace a while back, but he's gone now and I'm the boss now.


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## Sixmile (10 Sep 2019)

MontyVeda said:


> no idea.... i think the H&S thing about the boiler room is nonsense.



Not so. We are under very strict instructions from the fire service and the independant fire assessors, that boilerhouses are not to be used as storage and they take a very dim view on anything being stored in there, whether flammable or not.


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## MontyVeda (10 Sep 2019)

Sixmile said:


> Not so. We are under very strict instructions from the fire service and the independant fire assessors, that boilerhouses are not to be used as storage and they take a very dim view on anything being stored in there, whether flammable or not.


the boiler room is also the cleaning cupboard, and is also the access to the secure storage room. We do have random visits from some H&S bods who point out this and that. To my knowledge they've never had issue with the boiler room being a cleaning cupboard or stuff being stored in there... only the area manager seems to have that issue.


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## MontyVeda (10 Sep 2019)

Slick said:


> How often is the area manager in?


erratic and sporadic visits... at least once a week.


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## tom73 (10 Sep 2019)

Have you had a quiet word with the safety rep? Can't see them being happy with bike cluttering up the work place. 
Making it known the cost of damage to your bike maybe coming his way may move him.
If not sowing the idea of a claim for injury if someone got injured by them being left on the shop floor at his instruction may well focus the mind.


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## fossyant (10 Sep 2019)

It's at your risk. I can imagine a corner of the warehouse being safer than in the canteen from the H&S Elf's point of view.


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## MontyVeda (10 Sep 2019)

tom73 said:


> Have you had a quiet word with the safety rep? Can't see them being happy with bike cluttering up the work place.
> Making it known the cost of damage to your bike maybe coming his way may move him.
> If not sowing the idea of a claim for injury if someone got injured by them being left on the shop floor at his instruction may well focus the mind.


I'm guessing the safety rep is the store manager, who's answerable to the area manager. 

The AM didn't like bikes cluttering up the boiler room. 
Now he doesn't like them cluttering up the staff canteen so they'll be cluttering up the warehouse instead.


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## MontyVeda (10 Sep 2019)

fossyant said:


> It's at your risk. I can imagine a corner of the warehouse being safer than in the canteen from the H&S Elf's point of view.


if you'd seen our warehouse, you'd see that there's no quiet corner. It's the worst place in the premises to put them.


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## fossyant (10 Sep 2019)

MontyVeda said:


> if you'd seen our warehouse, you'd see that there's no quiet corner. It's the worst place in the premises to put them.



Any chance of getting bike racks ? Many employers are crap. When I was at a construction company, I had to lock the bike in a store, but not the best place as it was within the workshop, and out of bounds to us office types...


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## MontyVeda (10 Sep 2019)

fossyant said:


> Any chance of getting bike racks ? Many employers are crap. When I was at a construction company, I had to lock the bike in a store, but not the best place as it was within the workshop, and out of bounds to us office types...


I spoke to the store manager about it today who mentioned getting some wheel benders fitted. But what's really needed is a heavy duty metal barrier to keep the electric pallet trucks well away from them. The delivery drivers don't give a f**k what they smash into.


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## vickster (10 Sep 2019)

Where do shop customers park their bikes? Is this a supermarket?


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## Phaeton (10 Sep 2019)

There is no requirement for any employer to provide any form of storage for employees cars or cycles


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## DSK (10 Sep 2019)

I would also say that its generally at the owner risk. 

Its typical of all types of parking these days, airports, car parks, work, for all forms of transport. You use their parking facility at your own risk and this effectively (at a high level anyway) eliminates the parking space people being responsible for damage/claims against them.

We have had all sorts from people squirting ketchup, dropping biscuits on bikes and you shudder to think that you are working with well educated, professional people......


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## Drago (10 Sep 2019)

MontyVeda said:


> no idea.... i think the H&S thing about the boiler room is nonsense.



Actions taken in the vague name of H and S usually are.


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## Phaeton (10 Sep 2019)

If the boiler room also has the gas shut-off & the electricity distribution board clear access is needed in the event of the Fire Brigade needing access


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## MontyVeda (10 Sep 2019)

vickster said:


> Where do shop customers park their bikes? Is this a supermarket?


on the racks outside. There's space for 6 bikes. 

when we were told we couldn't use the boiler room anymore, we were told to use the racks outside instead... but after pointing out that would only leave a couple of spaces for the customers to use, the canteen was the compromise.


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## MontyVeda (10 Sep 2019)

Phaeton said:


> If the boiler room also has the gas shut-off & the electricity distribution board clear access is needed in the event of the Fire Brigade needing access


the corner of the boiler room we used to keep them didn't block anything. 
But then again, the odd member of staff would just open the door and chuck their bike in rather than parking it properly.


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## classic33 (10 Sep 2019)

I kept mine in the building having asked if they'd be prepared to replace it, if it was nicked from outside.

Small walled yard out the back, but shared access and a lock that was easy to open. Also the fire escape route out for one of those on shared access.


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## DRM (10 Sep 2019)

I would ask to see the risk assessment regarding the boiler house, if as I suspect you work in some kind of store, the warehouse is the worst place as they don’t usually have room to swing a cat in there, plus there is the combination of trained chimp/fork truck risk of damage, the manager sounds like an arse who probably think your bike was £100 new and would think the actual cost of a decent bike was unbelievable


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## MontyVeda (10 Sep 2019)

DRM said:


> *I would ask to see the risk assessment regarding the boiler house*, if as I suspect you work in some kind of store, the warehouse is the worst place as they don’t usually have room to swing a cat in there, plus there is the combination of trained chimp/fork truck risk of damage, the manager sounds like an arse who probably think your bike was £100 new and would think the actual cost of a decent bike was unbelievable


I would but I'm 100% certain there isn't one. 

I'll have to try my best not to be an arse regarding this. For a company that promotes the C2W scheme as a perk, it's a bit odd that the area manager is actively discouraging cycling to work by taking away the sensible places to park our bikes.


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## Drago (10 Sep 2019)

Does the company have a car park?

If so, ask why they're happy to spend mo ey on car parking (business rates will reflect that), yet arent prepared to spend it on proper cycle parking. Very pertinent too, seeing as ar driving has passed its zenith and the numbers will now only ever dwindle.


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## vickster (10 Sep 2019)

Drago said:


> Does the company have a car park?
> 
> If so, ask why they're happy to spend mo ey on car parking (business rates will reflect that), yet arent prepared to spend it on proper cycle parking. Very pertinent too, seeing as ar driving has passed its zenith and the numbers will now only ever dwindle.


He says not for staff


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## vickster (10 Sep 2019)

MontyVeda said:


> I would but I'm 100% certain there isn't one.
> 
> I'll have to try my best not to be an arse regarding this. For a company that promotes the C2W scheme as a perk, it's a bit odd that the area manager is actively discouraging cycling to work by taking away the sensible places to park our bikes.


That’s the company’s stance, presumably not his specifically (maybe he’s on a power trip or this has really come from on high)

Can you go to his boss and ask for a discussion around this. Request a health and safety risk assessment as part of that


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## Thomson (10 Sep 2019)

This is the reason I have a work bike and a good bike. There’s a bike rack at my work inside the building round the back for four bikes. There’s only two off us who cycle in every day and another guy is a few times a week. And a couple off summer day cyclists. But leave there bikes in there work sheds. On the few occasions I have took my good bike I put it in a very small office (hardly used) locked. Having a work bike for me really puts my mind at ease . There is a bike rack at the front off our office staff buildings ave maybe seen a couple bikes there and a bike chained to the fence next to the side door a few times.


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## MontyVeda (10 Sep 2019)

vickster said:


> That’s the company’s stance, presumably not his specifically (*maybe he’s on a power trip *or this has really come from on high)
> 
> Can you go to his boss and ask for a discussion around this. Request a health and safety risk assessment as part of that



I think he (the area manager) is on a bit of a power trip. A few months ago he tried to ban us from drinking water unless we're on our break. We kicked up a fuss and he then gave us 'permission' to drink water under certain conditions. We kicked up a fuss and told the store manager to tell the area manager that he can't pick and choose which basic employment rights we're allowed. The drinking ban was dropped and a few weeks later he banned us from listening to music on headphones when the store's closed... H&S grounds, we mightn't hear the fire alarm!


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## Drago (10 Sep 2019)

Christ, you could be listening to Motorhead on 11 and still hear a fire alarm.

Sounds like a lot of people out there take their management tips from David Brent.


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## DRM (10 Sep 2019)

MontyVeda said:


> I would but I'm 100% certain there isn't one.
> 
> I'll have to try my best not to be an arse regarding this. For a company that promotes the C2W scheme as a perk, it's a bit odd that the area manager is actively discouraging cycling to work by taking away the sensible places to park our bikes.


That’s my point, show why in black & white in a proper risk assessment, or it’s BS dressed up as H&S


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## Moodyman (10 Sep 2019)

I had my bike stolen from the head office of a blue chip. The bike was locked outside to a sheltered Sheffield stand. 

Whilst being sympathetic, they said their insurance did not extend to employees' belongings.


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## sleuthey (10 Sep 2019)

Phaeton said:


> If the boiler room also has the gas shut-off & the electricity distribution board clear access is needed in the event of the Fire Brigade needing access


Also. Have you ever got your bike out of a rack and had to give it a Yank as it's wedged against another bike? I expect there are concerns about doing this in close proximity to gas pipes or electrical cables as it could cause hazards.


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## steveindenmark (11 Sep 2019)

I dont think an employer has any legal obligation to provide any type of parking facility.

If your bike gets damaged I would imagine its your responsibility.

Ask your employer. But you know the answer.


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## Drago (11 Sep 2019)

Strictly speaking, unless it's an emergency, the person causing the damage is the person liable. Of course, who's ever going to fess up?


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## MontyVeda (11 Sep 2019)

steveindenmark said:


> I dont think an employer has any legal obligation to provide any type of parking facility.
> 
> If your bike gets damaged I would imagine its your responsibility.
> 
> Ask your employer. But you know the answer.


I know they don't have to provide parking but there's two places within the store that we could park our bikes where they'd be less at risk of damage than the warehouse.

If my bike is damaged by a member of staff doing their job, I'll be putting a claim in for damages against my employer.

I'm not planing on asking the area manager anything... I'm going to tell him that in the event of any damage to our bikes, we'll be putting claims in.


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## Milkfloat (11 Sep 2019)

MontyVeda said:


> I know they don't have to provide parking but there's two places within the store that we could park our bikes where they'd be less at risk of damage than the warehouse.
> 
> If my bike is damaged by a member of staff doing their job, I'll be putting a claim in for damages against my employer.
> 
> I'm not planing on asking the area manager anything... I'm going to tell him that in the event of any damage to our bikes, we'll be putting claims in.



You run the risk of having your bikes banned anywhere on the premises at all. You need to be aware of the situation you are in before you go in all guns blazing.


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## Phaeton (11 Sep 2019)

MontyVeda said:


> If my bike is damaged by a member of staff doing their job, I'll be putting a claim in for damages against my employer.


If i was the owner of the business I'd advise you that the bike should not have been on the premises & it's your own fault it was damaged. (playing Devil's advocate)


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## MontyVeda (11 Sep 2019)

Phaeton said:


> If i was the owner of the business I'd advise you that the bike should not have been on the premises & it's your own fault it was damaged. (playing Devil's advocate)


but they're not saying our bikes shouldn't be on the premises... they're telling us to put them in a place where they could be damaged rather than letting us keep them somewhere they likely wouldn't be (i.e. staff canteen or boiler room)


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## Sixmile (11 Sep 2019)

MontyVeda said:


> but they're not saying our bikes shouldn't be on the premises... they're telling us to put them in a place where they could be damaged rather than letting us keep them somewhere they likely wouldn't be (i.e. staff canteen or boiler room)



At least it's an option all the same. The warehouse probably isn't ideal by the sounds of things but your employer probably thinks it's a reasonable compromise. 

After a failed theft attempt of my bike on work premises (it was locked to a rail in our pass protected rear alleyway) I was told by H&S to 'find somewhere' to put my bike in future. We're severely limited in space, outside was no longer an option, I'd unsuccessfully inquired about the boiler house and eventually made do with a very tight cleaners store near the rear exit. It makes things a little awkward for the cleaner but she has been most accommodating and now thankfully I've a semi-decent store out of sight of anyone.


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## Gravity Aided (11 Sep 2019)

As a past area manager in retail, I wonder that such mundane little items are worthy of scrutiny. You guys must be doing a great job in all other aspects for these sort of picayune management concerns to voiced. Place where we had a more urban store, I just made a bike rack from pipes and secured it to the building, as more employees rode there.


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## steveindenmark (11 Sep 2019)

MontyVeda said:


> I know they don't have to provide parking but there's two places within the store that we could park our bikes where they'd be less at risk of damage than the warehouse.
> 
> If my bike is damaged by a member of staff doing their job, I'll be putting a claim in for damages against my employer.
> 
> I'm not planing on asking the area manager anything... I'm going to tell him that in the event of any damage to our bikes, we'll be putting claims in.


If that was the case and I was the manager it would make me ask who gave you permission to bring bikes in to begin with and secondly I would be making it clear that you did not have permission to bring them in again.

The best person to ask is your manager and then put them where he tells you.


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## Drago (11 Sep 2019)

What you need is a lever, some kind of incriminating evidence that the manager is doing something he should be doing, then I'm sure he'll be glad to let you back in the boiler room.


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## cyberknight (11 Sep 2019)

I think the crux of this is a car park is designed for parking cars whilst at work. shopping etc , unless they can provide somewhere where there is little chance of damage then they haven't a leg to stand on , sticking in a busy overcrowded space is asking for trouble


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## SkipdiverJohn (12 Sep 2019)

MontyVeda said:


> If I'm forced to store it where it might get damaged and it does get damaged, I'll be putting a claim in and we'll see what happens. Hopefully, having a word with the area manager and pointing out that a buckled wheel will cost £100 and a damaged frame will cost upwards of £1500 will stop him from being a nobber



What will likely happen is your employer will tell you to go take a running jump, and then will ban ALL bicycles from being brought on site. I'm sure that will make you popular with your colleagues. You chose to use an expensive bike to commute on, that's your lookout. You could just as easily have bought a £25 hack bike and ride that to work instead. The self-entitled "I ride an expensive bike so I demand to park it wherever I want" attitude wouldn't cut any ice with me. I'd tell you in no uncertain terms to leave your bike out on the street if you used that approach on me. 



tom73 said:


> Making it known the cost of damage to your bike maybe coming his way may move him..



The simplest solution to potential liability issues is to simply prohibit personal property like bikes being bought on to work premises. Problem solved.



MontyVeda said:


> I'm not planing on asking the area manager anything... I'm going to tell him that in the event of any damage to our bikes, we'll be putting claims in.





steveindenmark said:


> If that was the case and I was the manager it would make me ask who gave you permission to bring bikes in to begin with and secondly I would be making it clear that you did not have permission to bring them in again.



You're just asking for trouble. Management could just ban storing bikes at work. You then try to bring a bike in regardless or complain if it gets damaged, and it could become a disciplinary matter for misconduct. On the other hand you could ride a cheap hack bike, park it wherever the manager will tolerate it, and don't rock the boat. If you insist on shitstirring because you want to prove a point, you'll likely come off the loser.


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## classic33 (12 Sep 2019)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> What will likely happen is your employer will tell you to go take a running jump, and then will ban ALL bicycles from being brought on site. I'm sure that will make you popular with your colleagues. You chose to use an expensive bike to commute on, that's your lookout. You could just as easily have bought a £25 hack bike and ride that to work instead. The self-entitled "I ride an expensive bike so I demand to park it wherever I want" attitude wouldn't cut any ice with me. I'd tell you in no uncertain terms to leave your bike out on the street if you used that approach on me.
> 
> The simplest solution to potential liability issues is to simply prohibit personal property like bikes being bought on to work premises. Problem solved.
> 
> You're just asking for trouble. Management could just ban storing bikes at work. You then try to bring a bike in regardless or complain if it gets damaged, and it could become a disciplinary matter for misconduct. On the other hand you could ride a cheap hack bike, park it wherever the manager will tolerate it, and don't rock the boat. If you insist on shitstirring because you want to prove a point, you'll likely come off the loser.


One problem is the C2W scheme, under which the bike was purchased. @MontyVeda can correct me on this part, if I've misread his posts. Bike purchased under the scheme has to be new, from a recognised retailer operating the scheme, and then it's expected to be used to cycle to work.

Rules out getting a "hack bike" for £25, or thereabouts, from someone selling secondhand, to get rid off it. Not certain of the distance travelled to work, but "hack bike" or not, if damaged at work to the extent that it was unrideable, how is he supposed to get home?

Not everyone works only when public transport is running or where it may be running. Are you suggesting he stays at work if the bike is damaged at work, if he's no public transport.

It would save him the trip back the following shift that much is true.


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## SkipdiverJohn (12 Sep 2019)

If I employed you to do a job, I'd agree to pay you X amount of wages in return for you turning up for work and doing Y amount of hours. How you get to and from work, and what means of transport you use, is your problem not mine. C2W is an irrelevance.


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## tom73 (12 Sep 2019)

That's the spirit chain them to shop floor and sent the kids up the chimney and down the mines. 
That will teach these pesky workers to ask for a bike rack.


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## MontyVeda (12 Sep 2019)

One of the deputy managers is refusing to park his bike (recently purchased on C2W) in the warehouse because of the increased risk of damage. Mine wasn't purchased on the C2W scheme, but that's beside the point. I am currently parking my bike in the warehouse as instructed until i speak with the area manager to share my concerns. If the AM gets arsey about it, I'll just start looking for work elsewhere. He's not the only employer in town.

edited to add... bike is the only feasible means of transport for me. There's no buses at 5.30 am and given the choice between a 10 minute ride or a 35 minute walk, I'll just go somewhere else.


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## classic33 (12 Sep 2019)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> If I employed you to do a job, I'd agree to pay you X amount of wages in return for you turning up for work and doing Y amount of hours. How you get to and from work, and what means of transport you use, is your problem not mine. C2W is an irrelevance.


The employer is party to the C2W scheme, so relevant to the means of transport used.


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## MontyVeda (12 Sep 2019)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> .... If you insist on shitstirring because you want to prove a point, you'll likely come off the loser.



it's not to prove a point, it's to keep my bike somewhere that it's safe from damage and theft.


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## Drago (12 Sep 2019)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> If I employed you to do a job, I'd agree to pay you X amount of wages in return for you turning up for work and doing Y amount of hours. How you get to and from work, and what means of transport you use, is your problem not mine. C2W is an irrelevance.



I'm sure the cream or the crop will be queueing around the block to work for a caring employer like you.


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## BurningLegs (12 Sep 2019)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> If I employed you to do a job, I'd agree to pay you X amount of wages in return for you turning up for work and doing Y amount of hours. How you get to and from work, and what means of transport you use, is your problem not mine. C2W is an irrelevance.


I agree to a point, but good employers would recognise that good staff will be recruited and retained more easily if you accommodate their needs. 

This example is bike storage, but there are lots of others e.g ability to work from home, flexible hours, on site facilities e.g canteen or showers etc. The list goes on, and I don’t think employers should be forced to provide these “extras” but the good ones will recognise the value in doing so. 

As an employee this would be something that makes me consider leaving the company to work elsewhere.


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## Gravity Aided (12 Sep 2019)

Some employers actually pay you to ride your bicycle to work, over here. We have an outside rack, but also a security camera. There is actually a fellow rides a Brompton and locks it up outside. I get a report from the security guards every now and again, X and So were looking at the tricycle, pulled on the lock, and left.


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## vickster (12 Sep 2019)

classic33 said:


> The employer is party to the C2W scheme, so relevant to the means of transport used.


A Government scheme presumably included in the benefits package at Head Office/Corporate level, presumably not a store to store decision. Maybe the OP should take it to the top on that basis if corporate CSR policy is to encourage cycling. Large businesses usually welcome employee engagement. I assume it’s not the Partnership organisation Waitrose?


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## vickster (12 Sep 2019)

MontyVeda said:


> it's not to prove a point, it's to keep my bike somewhere that it's safe from damage and theft.


Would a £20 clunker not be perfect for a 10 minute ride and save the worry. I don’t usually agree with Skippy’s philosophy!


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## MontyVeda (12 Sep 2019)

If i had room for two bikes in my 1st floor flat, I might have two bikes. As things are, I have one bike.


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## Phaeton (12 Sep 2019)

Chain it up outside so it gets used to being at work


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## confusedcyclist (12 Sep 2019)

MontyVeda said:


> I am currently parking my bike in the warehouse as instructed until i speak with the area manager to share my concerns. If the AM gets arsey about it, I'll just start looking for work elsewhere. He's not the only employer in town.


That's exactly the right attitude. If employers treat their staff like market labour, employees can do the very the same with their employer. A good buisness operates with a social conscience, those ones that don't will not retain their best staff and their business (effectiveness and productivity) will eventually suffer as a result. In a market economy, that means the competition attract better staff, and you go out of buisness. Very short sighted attitude portrayed by @SkipdiverJohn

It's no coincidence I have stuck with my present employer longer than any other, they may not offer the absolute best price for my labour, but then again, they pay in other ways as they are incredibly flexible with working hours which means I don't need to pay for childcare (which often means you have to sell your first born to pay for), they offer a range of facilities for commuter cyclists, which keeps me fit and engaged in the workplace. It's a win win arrangement for the employer/employee.


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## vickster (12 Sep 2019)

MontyVeda said:


> If i had room for two bikes in my 1st floor flat, I might have two bikes. As things are, I have one bike.


You can leave the clunker outside?


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## MontyVeda (12 Sep 2019)

vickster said:


> You can leave the clunker outside?


Chained to nothing but itself... doubt it'd last very long.


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## vickster (12 Sep 2019)

MontyVeda said:


> Chained to nothing but itself... doubt it'd last very long.


No stands closeby?


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## MontyVeda (12 Sep 2019)

vickster said:


> No stands closeby?


there's a lamp post on the pavement... but buying a crap bike to leave chained to it is not the solution I'm looking for.


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## vickster (12 Sep 2019)

MontyVeda said:


> there's a lamp post on the pavement... but buying a crap bike to leave chained to it is not the solution I'm looking for.


Fair enough


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## SkipdiverJohn (12 Sep 2019)

BurningLegs said:


> I agree to a point, but good employers would recognise that good staff will be recruited and retained more easily if you accommodate their needs. .



The employer isn't refusing to allow bikes on the premises, they are simply dictating where they will be allowed - and the OP doesn't like this because they have an expensive machine and a precious attitude. At the end of the day, the employer runs the show, not the employee. Accept it or be your own boss.
The argument about recruitment and retention only holds water up to a point. It depends on the nature of the job, skills, experience, and the hassle and cost factors of replacing staff who leave. If I was employing staff, I would obviously like to keep hold of good reliable ones, but it wouldn't extend to tolerating anyone who was intent on simply being a pain in the arse.


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## classic33 (12 Sep 2019)

And if after leaving the bike in the place, as pointed out, it being there is given as the cause of an accident, who should be blamed.

Pretty certain there will be "clearways" in any warehouse that are required to be kept clear for forklift and pallet truck movement. Have those driving the forklifts/pallet trucks been informed about the new arraingments?


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## MontyVeda (12 Sep 2019)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> The employer isn't refusing to allow bikes on the premises, they are simply dictating where they will be allowed - and the OP doesn't like this because they have an expensive machine and a precious attitude. At the end of the day, the employer runs the show, not the employee. Accept it or be your own boss.
> The argument about recruitment and retention only holds water up to a point. It depends on the nature of the job, skills, experience, and the hassle and cost factors of replacing staff who leave. If I was employing staff, I would obviously like to keep hold of good reliable ones, but it wouldn't extend to tolerating anyone who was intent on simply being a pain in the arse.


yeah but, judging by your inflexible attitude towards your hypothetical employees... it'd be the staff choosing whether to stay or go rather than you. You're not going to win employer of the year anytime soon I'm afraid.


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## tom73 (12 Sep 2019)

I'd not bother too much about employing staff as you'd probably go bust from high recruitment cost even poor staff cost money. 
Or been taken to the cleaners by some tribal or another.


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## Smokin Joe (12 Sep 2019)

I agree with Skipdiver on this, I don't think the employer is being unreasonable.

Funny old cove Skipdiver, every post he makes I either sneeringly disagree with or completely do agree with. I wish he'd post something neutral as the stress is killing me.


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## Drago (12 Sep 2019)

Not to mention that some people can be quite sadistic, and jf you treat staff like crap then nasty things can happen. Chap I know works at a major airport and was telling me about a guy that was an utter nodder. First someone simply chinned him, and that didn't get the message across. Then when he was inside an aircraft they decided to do some kind of fuselage test and accidentally took him to a simulated 40,000 feet and the message didn't get across. Then as he was stepping out of one aircraft the boarding ramp thing was accidentally moved and he fell 25 feet and broke both legs...and he still didn't get the hint.

Pithing people off at work unecessarily is dodgy cos theres always some sociopath who'll do something unpleasant back.


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## Pat "5mph" (12 Sep 2019)

Drago said:


> Pithing people off at work unecessarily is dodgy cos theres always some sociopath who'll do something unpleasant back.


I'm sure none of us thinks @MontyVeda is one of them sociopaths


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## SkipdiverJohn (12 Sep 2019)

Drago said:


> Not to mention that some people can be quite sadistic, and jf you treat staff like crap then nasty things can happen. Pithing people off at work unecessarily is dodgy cos theres always some sociopath who'll do something unpleasant back.



I wouldn't disagree about going out of your way to piss people off for no reason - but at the end of the day if you work for someone you have to accept that they are the ones who set the rules and you either live with them, or you go and work somewhere else. You of all people will understand that you can't have staff choosing which rules they fancy complying with and which ones they don't. There's a bit of give and take in most situations, but in this case the OP wants it all his own way. He's previously got away with storing his bike somewhere that suits him, and when that arrangement is changed by someone higher up the food chain than himself, he's spat his dummy and had a tantrum. hence all the "if my bike gets damaged I'll be sticking a claim in" stuff. The employer would probably rather not have any bikes in the building at all in case someone falls over one and has an accident, so the concession of allowing them in the warehouse would have been considered a more than fair compromise by them. However, the response by the OP is just that to be expected by those who insist on taking expensive bikes into risky locations. They think because they have spent a couple of grand or more on their bike, not twenty quid, that they should be afforded special privileges like getting to choose where you park it. It's exactly the same attitude displayed by those cyclists who ride a really valuable bike and expect to be permitted to take it inside a shop or café with them, rather than leave it at risk outside with all the cheaper machinery.


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## Drago (12 Sep 2019)

Pat "5mph" said:


> I'm sure none of us thinks @MontyVeda is one of them sociopaths



He is a lovely chap. 




























Did I say that right Monty?


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## roadrash (12 Sep 2019)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> They think because they have spent a couple of grand or more on their bike, not twenty quid, that they should be afforded special privileges like getting to choose where you park it




can you point out where the op has said this ,or even hinted that he should have special privileges JUST BECAUSE they paid more than twenty quid for a bike,...….it would be helpful if you could because ive reread the thread but I cant find it. he says he wants somewhere safe from theft and damage but doesn't state how expensive/inexpensive his bike was.


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## vickster (12 Sep 2019)

roadrash said:


> can you point out where the op has said this ,or even hinted that he should have special privileges JUST BECAUSE they paid more than twenty quid for a bike,...….it would be helpful if you could because ive reread the thread but I cant find it. he says he wants somewhere safe from theft and damage but doesn't state how expensive/inexpensive his bike was.


Post #7 gives an indication of wheel and frameset replacement costs (unless also purely hypothetical)


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## SkipdiverJohn (12 Sep 2019)

roadrash said:


> can you point out where the op has said this ,or even hinted that he should have special privileges JUST BECAUSE they paid more than twenty quid for a bike,...….it would be helpful if you could because ive reread the thread but I cant find it. he says he wants somewhere safe from theft and damage but doesn't state how expensive/inexpensive his bike was.



Read the bit about repairs to a damaged frame costing £1500. True, he doesn't state exactly how much the bike cost, but any bike with a frame in that price range is an expensive bike, and I very much doubt it's been built up with low-price mechanical components either. 
No-one in their right mind would wear a top of the range Swiss watch for a shift working on a building site, they'd buy a £10 one from Argos, so they wouldn't cry too much if it got damaged. Same goes for commuting bikes. If there's a real risk of someone driving into it when parked and making it resemble a banana. you don't take your Sunday best one to work. You make do with an old rat bike and if it gets wrecked you take the £20 hit on the chin and go and get another cheap hack to replace it.


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## vickster (12 Sep 2019)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Read the bit about repairs to a damaged frame costing £1500. True, he doesn't state exactly how much the bike cost, but any bike with a frame in that price range is an expensive bike, and I very much doubt it's been built up with low-price mechanical components either.
> No-one in their right mind would wear a top of the range Swiss watch for a shift working on a building site, they'd buy a £10 one from Argos, so they wouldn't cry too much if it got damaged. Same goes for commuting bikes. If there's a real risk of someone driving into it when parked and making it resemble a banana. you don't take your Sunday best one to work. You make do with an old rat bike and if it gets wrecked you take the £20 hit on the chin and go and get another cheap hack to replace it.


He does also say he only has room in his home to keep one bike. And who only wants a rat bike in that situation (except maybe you?)


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## classic33 (12 Sep 2019)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> I wouldn't disagree about going out of your way to piss people off for no reason - *but at the end of the day if you work for someone you have to accept that they are the ones who set the rules* and you either live with them, or you go and work somewhere else. You of all people will understand that you can't have staff choosing which rules they fancy complying with and which ones they don't. There's a bit of give and take in most situations, but in this case the OP wants it all his own way. He's previously got away with storing his bike somewhere that suits him, and when that arrangement is changed by someone higher up the food chain than himself, he's spat his dummy and had a tantrum. hence all the "if my bike gets damaged I'll be sticking a claim in" stuff. The employer would probably rather not have any bikes in the building at all in case someone falls over one and has an accident, so the concession of allowing them in the warehouse would have been considered a more than fair compromise by them. However, the response by the OP is just that to be expected by those who insist on taking expensive bikes into risky locations. They think because they have spent a couple of grand or more on their bike, not twenty quid, that they should be afforded special privileges like getting to choose where you park it. It's exactly the same attitude displayed by those cyclists who ride a really valuable bike and expect to be permitted to take it inside a shop or café with them, rather than leave it at risk outside with all the cheaper machinery.


As is the manager, who seems to have a point to make.

The value of the bike is irrelevant to the situation. The bike is a means of transport to and from work.

I spent three and a half years travelling to work at unsocial hours, on roads where there was no public transport. Taxi four times a day to cover the same distance would have cost more than I was being paid. And it'd have been no quicker, using the same roads I was using.

Stop fixating on what price may have been paid by others, purely and simply because they may have spent more than you approve of. It's quite easy get a cheap bike. I've given away more than I care to think about over the years. To people who then used them as their introduction to cycling.

One problem we, as cyclists, face is that we are seen as not able to cover the distances we do.

I've used the cycles, and parked them at work, where one manager decided it should be once I got there. I'd then another manager complaining about where it was left. Place approved by another manager, but not where they wanted it leaving. Choice was theirs, they could follow H&S, do a risk assessment and prove it wasn't safe. Insist on it being left outside, blocking shared access and a fire exit, whilst looking for someone else to cover the early morning start. I was one of two willing, and able to get there out of 11 other employees. The other didn't last long.


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## roadrash (13 Sep 2019)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Read the bit about repairs to a damaged frame costing £1500. True, he doesn't state exactly how much the bike cost, but any bike with a frame in that price range is an expensive bike, and I very much doubt it's been built up with low-price mechanical components either.
> No-one in their right mind would wear a top of the range Swiss watch for a shift working on a building site, they'd buy a £10 one from Argos, so they wouldn't cry too much if it got damaged. Same goes for commuting bikes. If there's a real risk of someone driving into it when parked and making it resemble a banana. you don't take your Sunday best one to work. You make do with an old rat bike and if it gets wrecked you take the £20 hit on the chin and go and get another cheap hack to replace it.





yes I know all that, but once again , as per the watch or rat bike analogy, anyone doing something that YOU wouldn't do is wrong,
now can you show me where the op says he wants special treatment,(now here comes the phrase) ...JUST BECAUSE...his bike was expensive,....maybe ...just maybe he would want his bike safe from theft or damage whatever its worth, but once again because he paid more than you would , you tell him hes wrong and he should have bought a cheap bike.
you really do seem to have a problem with people spending their own money however they choose, not once has he asked for special treatment for the reason you regularly trot out


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## Drago (13 Sep 2019)

The OP needs to get himself promoted, then he can set the rules. One of the beauties of being in charge of the office when I worked is I could stick my bike where I liked, and that was usually next my desk.


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## MontyVeda (13 Sep 2019)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> I wouldn't disagree about going out of your way to piss people off for no reason - but at the end of the day if you work for someone you have to accept that they are the ones who set the rules and you either live with them, or you go and work somewhere else. You of all people will understand that you can't have staff choosing which rules they fancy complying with and which ones they don't. There's a bit of give and take in most situations, but in this case the OP wants it all his own way. He's previously got away with storing his bike somewhere that suits him, and when that arrangement is changed by someone higher up the food chain than himself, he's spat his dummy and had a tantrum. hence all the "if my bike gets damaged I'll be sticking a claim in" stuff. The employer would probably rather not have any bikes in the building at all in case someone falls over one and has an accident, so the concession of allowing them in the warehouse would have been considered a more than fair compromise by them. However, the response by the OP is just that to be expected by those who insist on taking expensive bikes into risky locations. They think because they have spent a couple of grand or more on their bike, not twenty quid, that they should be afforded special privileges like getting to choose where you park it. It's exactly the same attitude displayed by those cyclists who ride a really valuable bike and expect to be permitted to take it inside a shop or café with them, rather than leave it at risk outside with all the cheaper machinery.


it's not just me... today another deputy manager said he won't store his bike in the warehouse either. What you fail to understand is the warehouse is the worst place to put them, so please, climb down of your high horse.


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## MontyVeda (13 Sep 2019)

roadrash said:


> can you point out where the op has said this ,or even hinted that he should have special privileges JUST BECAUSE they paid more than twenty quid for a bike,...….it would be helpful if you could because ive reread the thread but I cant find it. he says he wants somewhere safe from theft and damage but doesn't state how expensive/inexpensive his bike was.


my bike is a 90's orange P7, cost around £700 new. Todays price for that model is upwards of £1500. If i were to put a claim in, it'd be for a new bike, not a 2nd hand one.


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## Gravity Aided (13 Sep 2019)

Folding bike might be nice, keep it in the flat, ride it to work, fold it up where specified.


MontyVeda said:


> it's not just me... today another deputy manager said he won't store his bike in the warehouse either. What you fail to understand is the warehouse is the worst place to put them, so please, climb down of your high horse.


P.S., Let's not get too personal.
_Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!_


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## classic33 (13 Sep 2019)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Read the bit about repairs to a damaged frame costing £1500. True, he doesn't state exactly how much the bike cost, but any bike with a frame in that price range is an expensive bike, and I very much doubt it's been built up with low-price mechanical components either.
> No-one in their right mind would wear a top of the range Swiss watch for a shift working on a building site, they'd buy a £10 one from Argos, so they wouldn't cry too much if it got damaged. Same goes for commuting bikes. If there's a real risk of someone driving into it when parked and making it resemble a banana. you don't take your Sunday best one to work. You make do with an old rat bike and if it gets wrecked you take the £20 hit on the chin and go and get another cheap hack to replace it.


How often would you replace a 'hack bike" before you realised that the amount being spent was more than the price for one bike.

Using your watch analogy as an example. I bought a £40 watch for everyday wear, including work. Which was wide and varied manual work. 

There's a saying about buy cheap, buy twice.


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## vickster (13 Sep 2019)

classic33 said:


> How often would you replace a 'hack bike" before you realised that the amount being spent was more than the price for one bike.
> 
> Using your watch analogy as an example. I bought a £40 watch for everyday wear, including work. Which was wide and varied manual work.
> 
> There's a saying about buy cheap, buy twice.


£40 is still a cheap watch. You can easily spend £4k. That’s your £40 hack bike and your 4K carbon roadbike (high mid range)


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## Gravity Aided (14 Sep 2019)

classic33 said:


> How often would you replace a 'hack bike" before you realised that the amount being spent was more than the price for one bike.
> 
> Using your watch analogy as an example. I bought a £40 watch for everyday wear, including work. Which was wide and varied manual work.
> 
> There's a saying about buy cheap, buy twice.


I might recommend the inexpensive Casio.W218H. Mine was less than $20, and keeps time to an anorak level of accuracy. Last a good long while.


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## classic33 (14 Sep 2019)

Gravity Aided said:


> I might recommend the inexpensive Casio. Mine was less than $20, and keeps time to an anorak level of accuracy. Last a good long while.


I bought a Casio. Main requirement was it needed to be a waterproof watch.


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## Gravity Aided (14 Sep 2019)

Reminds me of the scene in _Planes, Trains, and Automobiles._
"I have two dollars, and a Casio..."


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## srw (14 Sep 2019)

MontyVeda said:


> my bike is a 90's orange P7, cost around £700 new. Todays price for that model is upwards of £1500. If i were to put a claim in, it'd be for a new bike, not a 2nd hand one.


"Please evidence that we were negligent - without negligence on our part we are not liable for any damage to your property. If you can demonstrate to our insurer's satisfaction that we were negligent then you will be eligible for compensation to the value of damage done to your property - a bike which is now 20 years old."

You're at liberty to try, but I don't rate your chances of success very highly.


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## Drago (14 Sep 2019)

If damage is caused, there are 3 scenarios;

A. Accident. Genuine, unforseen happenstance.

B. Negligence.

C. A deliberate act.

In all scenarios an insurer of a person causing such damage is liable to be, erm, liable.


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## srw (14 Sep 2019)

Drago said:


> In all scenarios an insurer of a person causing such damage is liable to be, erm, liable.


Erm. No.

https://www.abi.org.uk/products-and...rance/business-insurance/liability-insurance/

As the old ads had it - "Where there's blame, there's a claim"

If it's a genuine accident, there's no liability, and no claim.
If it's negligence* on the part of the employer, there's a claim, but for the value of the property damaged, not any more.
If it's a deliberate act by a different employee without negligence on the part of the employer, there's a claim, but on the different employee, not on the employer - and for the value of the property damaged, not more.

*"A failure to take proper (or reasonable) care in doing something, resulting in damage or injury to you or someone else." says the ABI.

Anyone who's concerned that their property might be damaged, lost or stolen in circumstances where there is no negligence, or where the cost of replacement is higher than the cost of the item, might want to consider getting their own property insurance.


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## Gravity Aided (14 Sep 2019)

And it seems that all insurance problems and chancery cases could be resolved, in advance, by simply letting the bicycles remain where they were.


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## SkipdiverJohn (14 Sep 2019)

Gravity Aided said:


> And it seems that all insurance problems and chancery cases could be resolved, in advance, by simply letting the bicycles remain where they were.



Not quite so simple if the previous storage blocked safe access to something else. The Fire Brigade especially will get very stroppy indeed if they do a visit and find obstructing objects stored in places where they may need access if called out on an emergency. They aren't going to care about someone's £2k bike being at risk of being bent by a clumsy fork lift driver, but they will care about possibly tripping over said bike in a smoke-filled room with no lights.
The easiest solution for the employer is a simple blanket ban on bicycles being brought into the building, and this is the risk that staff who want to rock the boat are taking.


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## srw (14 Sep 2019)

Gravity Aided said:


> And it seems that all insurance problems and chancery cases could be resolved, in advance, by simply letting the bicycles remain where they were.


Although since failure to provide a safe working environment is a criminal offence, once it's identified that it's unsafe for a bike to be stored in a boiler room it would be a brave move not to ban them.


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## Gravity Aided (14 Sep 2019)

Few are the buildings I have seen that don't have some place adaptable for the storage of bicycles in a safe manner to both the bicycle and those using the building. You know, I always found good employees to be a great asset, and what you do for them comes back to the business.


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## classic33 (14 Sep 2019)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Not quite so simple if the previous storage blocked safe access to something else. The Fire Brigade especially will get very stroppy indeed if they do a visit and find obstructing objects stored in places where they may need access if called out on an emergency. They aren't going to care about someone's £2k bike being at risk of being bent by a clumsy fork lift driver, but they will care about possibly tripping over said bike in a smoke-filled room with no lights.
> The easiest solution for the employer is a simple blanket ban on bicycles being brought into the building, and this is the risk that staff who want to rock the boat are taking.


The agreed place has been changed. 

Enviromental Health would take a dim view of a canteen/food area being used as storage space. Possibly ordering the closure until such time as the area has been cleaned, to their satisfaction.

To be able to change the agreed storage place, a proper assessment needs to be carried out, with a copy of the results held on file.

A boiler room fire, the fire service wouldn't enter the room until the supply(gas or electric) had been cut. The rooms themselves have to be kept clear of all combustible materials. Any smoke will therefore be coming from the boiler(s).

The person who is "rocking the boat" is the one who has changed the agreed place of storage. Insisting that henceforth storage will be in the warehouse. I'm presumbing that this will have been checked, report made/filed and a copy naade available for all concerned.


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## MontyVeda (18 Sep 2019)

Progress... this morning was a notice on the board stating "Bikes can now be stored in the old high security room"


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## DRM (19 Sep 2019)

MontyVeda said:


> Progress... this morning was a notice on the board stating "Bikes can now be stored in the old high security room"


Result!!!


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## MontyVeda (19 Sep 2019)

DRM said:


> Result!!!


The power of whining


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