# Idiot politicians - who elects them?



## .stu (21 Jan 2014)

http://www.worcesternews.co.uk/news...lists_to_register__says_politician/?ref=var_0

My colleague at work's first comment was, "Has she never seen cyclists with rucksacks?" Personally I think they should go the whole hog and put little arrows on them as well.


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## Roadrider48 (21 Jan 2014)

Hi vis does nothing for anybody IMHO. She has a slight point about RLJ's. 
I for one won't be registering my details simply for the privelage of riding my bike.
"Occasional cyclist"....My arse!


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## MontyVeda (21 Jan 2014)

my dad would probably agree with every word of that, as he's one of a great number of people who see cyclists as unwelcome intruders on 'their' roads. I've tried to educate him, but he's only shifted his stance marginally by claiming, "there's only one decent cyclist and that's my son!"

Fact of the matter is, like the obese and the unemployed, cyclists are one of the last remaining minorities people feel free to have a dig at. Her ignorant 'hardline' stance will find plenty of agreement from a great many people.


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## ComedyPilot (21 Jan 2014)

Dear Nikki Sinclaire.......

I don't agree in the strongest term possible.

* swearing removed


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## oldstrath (21 Jan 2014)

Who elects them? Easy - the same people who every day break one or more laws in their cars, and who would vastly prefer there to be no hindrances to their desperate rush to who knows where.


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## ComedyPilot (21 Jan 2014)

Why * should I dress up like Bob the * Builder......?

Why not dress all vehicles up in hi viz?

And pedestrians...joggers....dogs, cats, horses, sheep, trees, walls, buildings, fences.....infact anything and everything that vehicle drivers crash into due to THEIR lack of basic observation.....

*Unnecessary swearing removed


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## Accy cyclist (21 Jan 2014)

One comment following the article,and it's from a wonker!
*Geoffery1966* says...

"Absolutely agree, well said that woman ! Push bikes in the main are a menace on the road".


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## Roadrider48 (21 Jan 2014)

Accy cyclist said:


> One comment following the article,and it's from a wonker!
> "*Geoffery1966* says...
> 
> Absolutely agree, well said that woman ! Push bikes in the main are a menace on the road".


We all know what we think of Geoffrey1966, don't we?


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## ComedyPilot (21 Jan 2014)

Accy cyclist said:


> One comment following the article,and it's from a wonker!
> *Geoffery1966* says...
> 
> "Absolutely agree, well said that woman ! Push bikes in the main are a menace on the road".


To* Geoffery1966.......

Why * should I take notice of someone that can't even spell their own * name...?

Swearing removed


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## azraphale (21 Jan 2014)

I'm not sure how a cyclist who jumps a red light and gets hit by, or crashes into a car, is suddenly going to jump up and pedal away into the sunset to be honest. I wouldn't object to cyclists doing some form of compulsery basic training though to ride on the roads. I think that would help a lot of cyclists with road position and confidence.


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## Dragonwight (21 Jan 2014)

Typical politician spot a bandwagon and jump on it. Cyclist don't make me laugh, more like a pedestrian who owns a bike.


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## inkd (21 Jan 2014)

Looks like she? is loving the ride.


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## TheDoctor (21 Jan 2014)

Ex UKIP MEP says something stupid shock horror!


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## ComedyPilot (21 Jan 2014)

inkd said:


> View attachment 36707
> 
> Looks like she? is loving the ride.
> View attachment 36707


Those pictures exemplify all that is WRONG with UK cycling...... Nervous, H&S hi-viz and pudding bowl, daring to be on 'their road'......

Dear Nikki and all other cycling commentators, may I introduce 'normal everyday cycling':






I think people that can't see cycling as being 'normal' are completely barking, certifiable, swivel-eyed loons.......


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## Shut Up Legs (21 Jan 2014)

ComedyPilot said:


> I think people that can't see cycling as being 'normal' are completely barking, certifiable, swivel-eyed loons.......


You mean completely  ?

Has anyone contacted this politician yet to list the reasons why this registration wouldn't be viable?

Too costly to administer.
Wouldn't change much. After all, motor vehicle registration hasn't exactly turned all motorists into fully law-abiding saints, has it?
Hi-vis clothing doesn't seem to help some motorists see cyclists, so perhaps more motorist education on sharing the roads is needed instead?
The scheme would encourage more cyclists to stop cycling and use cars, hence increasing congestion (mentioned in the article, I know, but worth repeating).
Paraphrased from the article: "it can be enormously frustrating when you are on a bicycle and see motorists jump red lights".
I'm sure we could add more to the above list.


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## deptfordmarmoset (21 Jan 2014)

She's a colourful character alright. Born a man, changed gender and became a lesbian, arrested last year for European Parliament expenses fraud, got thrown out of UKIP, took them to a tribunal for sex discrimination and won because UKIP didn't contest the case, did a one-man show at the last Edinburgh fringe and founded the We demand A Referendum Party (WARP, though she probably calls it the WDRP). Stark raving bonkers, if you ask me. But entertaining.


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## ComedyPilot (21 Jan 2014)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> She's a colourful character alright. *Born a man*, changed gender and became a lesbian, arrested last year for European Parliament expenses fraud, got thrown out of UKIP, took them to a tribunal for sex discrimination and won because UKIP didn't contest the case, did a one-man show at the last Edinburgh fringe and founded the We demand A Referendum Party (WARP, though she probably calls it the WDRP). Stark raving bonkers, if you ask me. But entertaining.





......WHAT...?


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## ComedyPilot (21 Jan 2014)

.....now awaiting a mod's PM..........


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## deptfordmarmoset (21 Jan 2014)

ComedyPilot said:


> ......WHAT...?


Yes, it's not every day that a man comes out as a lesbian!


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## ShipHill (21 Jan 2014)

The superb motorists of Worcestershire elected her.

Every car driver in this fine shire drives superbly and with full regard to the law, never uses their mobiles whilst operating their vehicles, never plays annoyingly loud music and never treats the A38 like Santa Pod.

They also don't sit in huge queues texting their dopey mate along the City Walls Road. They all know how to negotiate the Big Roundabout at Droitwich too.

Oh yes they're brilliant drivers round here so it's only fair they have a pop at Joe Schlub on his pushbike.


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## ComedyPilot (21 Jan 2014)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> Yes, it's not every day that a man comes out as a lesbian!


I posted a pic of that person, and it's been deleted (not by me) where I made a possibly offensive comment about people wearing hi viz to identify them......


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## deptfordmarmoset (21 Jan 2014)

ComedyPilot said:


> I posted a pic of that person, and it's been deleted (not by me) where I made a possibly offensive comment about people wearing hi viz to identify them......


So I see. Or don't see. If you see what I mean. Odd.


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## inkd (21 Jan 2014)

wondered where the pic went?


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## Linford (21 Jan 2014)

ComedyPilot said:


> I posted a pic of that person, and it's been deleted (not by me) where I made a possibly offensive comment about people wearing hi viz to identify them......



Comments questioning the gender of a transsexual don't go down very well here


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## ComedyPilot (21 Jan 2014)

It's a fair cop.....


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## green1 (21 Jan 2014)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> Yes, it's not every day that a man comes out as a lesbian!


Last one I can think of is Eddie Izzard.


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## deptfordmarmoset (21 Jan 2014)

green1 said:


> Last one I can think of is Eddie Izzard.


He's a cross dresser, isn't he? She's gender reassigned.


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## Roadrider48 (21 Jan 2014)

inkd said:


> View attachment 36707
> 
> Looks like she? is loving the ride.
> View attachment 36707


Lol! That is a tight little hat on that big face.


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## Roadrider48 (21 Jan 2014)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> She's a colourful character alright. Born a man, changed gender and became a lesbian, arrested last year for European Parliament expenses fraud, got thrown out of UKIP, took them to a tribunal for sex discrimination and won because UKIP didn't contest the case, did a one-man show at the last Edinburgh fringe and founded the We demand A Referendum Party (WARP, though she probably calls it the WDRP). Stark raving bonkers, if you ask me. But entertaining.


Calling that "colourful" is being too kind!


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## Roadrider48 (21 Jan 2014)

ComedyPilot said:


> I posted a pic of that person, and it's been deleted (not by me) where I made a possibly offensive comment about people wearing hi viz to identify them......


Offending someone somewhere is easy. It's the way of the world these days. I wouldn't worry.


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## Roadrider48 (21 Jan 2014)

2884976 said:


> That is reminiscent of the BHIT woman's helmet photo, way to far back to be ideal. Still I expect it will qualify under the every little helps and a badly fitted helmet is better than none rule.


It's more like her face will protect the helmet from impact.
A Jewish keypar(badly spelled) looks bigger than that.


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## Scoosh (21 Jan 2014)

MOD Note:

Keep it On Topic and away from the appearance/gender issues, please.


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## clockman (21 Jan 2014)

I don't understand her argument about cyclists flouting the Highway Code. There are very few people who use the highway that have ever read the Highway Code. I see numerous people, daily and to be honest (in my job), hourly flouting it. Cyclists and motorists.
Very few people own a copy, let alone have read it! 
Basically, just a sad politico, jumping on a bandwagon, hoping to gain votes by attacking a minority, who are being let down by an ignorant minority within that minority.


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## oldroadman (21 Jan 2014)

Observation. The Euro elections are due in May. The person pictured is currently an MEP, ex-UKIP, not essentially without a party. The Monster Raving Loony has probably got more members (use that term carefully, too!). You really do have to be daft/offensive/staggeringly stupid to get thrown out of the collection of very strange people that is UKIP.
Now, if you want to get re-elected by a mainly disinterested electorate (about 20% max turnout for Euro elections) then you need to get publicity. And some people think any publicity if good. These people are called unelectable idiots, which I hope the good citizens of the region she is standing to represent will recognise. Always rememebr though, the old saying that we get the politicians we deserve.


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## slowmotion (21 Jan 2014)

Scoosh said:


> MOD Note:
> 
> Keep it On Topic and away from the appearance/gender issues, please.


 Would such sensitivity be extended to the appearance of Lord Rennard? I'm genuinely curious about that, not just stirring it.


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## deptfordmarmoset (21 Jan 2014)

Scoosh said:


> MOD Note:
> 
> Keep it On Topic and away from the appearance/gender issues, please.


Oh, alright then! 

So, she wants to see Boris bikes in the West Midlands. How exactly is this hi-vis with number plates supposed to work with hire bikes? Does she expect hire bike users to carry their own hi-vis tabards with registration numbers printed on them just on the off chance they might hire a bike? Now, that's really going to work, isn't it?


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## Roadrider48 (21 Jan 2014)

Nobody can joke anymore!


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## Brandane (22 Jan 2014)

Scoosh said:


> MOD Note:
> 
> Keep it On Topic and away from the appearance/gender issues, please.


Surely the topic is about the politicians character ("idiot politicians" is in the thread title), and his/her gender issues are not unconnected with that?
I would have to question his/her judgement when he changed to she and then declared herself a lesbian. It begs the question, why did he bother to change to she? Probably at public expense, too.


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## coffeejo (22 Jan 2014)

Some of the attitudes on this thread towards trans people are pretty shocking. I can only assume that - thankfully - many of you don't know what it's like to live with the fear of what others will think, say or do to you because you're different, because you don't fit into society's neat little boxes of what it is to be male or female.


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## uclown2002 (22 Jan 2014)




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## Linford (22 Jan 2014)

coffeejo said:


> Some of the attitudes on this thread towards trans people are pretty shocking. I can only assume that - thankfully - many of you don't know what it's like to live with the fear of what others will think, say or do to you because you're different, because you don't fit into society's neat little boxes of what it is to be male or female.



I guess she won't be heading to Uganda for a holiday any time soon then...We do live in a very tolerant and conservative society in the UK.


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## Roadrider48 (22 Jan 2014)

I know exactly what it is....a man is a man and a woman is a woman. Simple really!


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## Linford (22 Jan 2014)

Roadrider48 said:


> I know exactly what it is....a man is a man and a woman is a woman. Simple really!



If only life were so simple....


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## DiddlyDodds (22 Jan 2014)

Another waste of space MEP sat on the gravy train cash cow we call Europe, spouting crap just to get column inches and her face in the news in the hope of raising her profile.
She will no doubt be on some TV reality show next.


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## RichK (22 Jan 2014)

oldroadman said:


> Observation. The Euro elections are due in May. ....


 
Oh goody. I'll get a chance to not vote for her.


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## Brandane (22 Jan 2014)

Linford said:


> I guess she won't be heading to Uganda for a holiday any time soon then...We do live in a very tolerant and conservative society in the UK.


Or if you prefer; we pamper to the supposed needs of attention seeking nobbers.


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## 400bhp (22 Jan 2014)

ABC


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## ufkacbln (22 Jan 2014)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> Yes, it's not every day that a man comes out as a lesbian!



Trans-gender changes are complex.

Quite often a same sex relationship will continue with one partner changing their "role as well as their gender. For instance a lesbian partnership may become a "husband and wife with a male role being adopted by the trans-gender partner

Equally some heterosexual couples may remain together and become a "same sex" relationship when one partner changes gender and becomes the same sex as their partner

I think it is summed up by a quote from an article in the Gay and Lesbian Times:



> When you’re male-to-female, people automatically assume [you] want to be with a man. But in reality, that isn’t what always happens. In fact, one third of us end up with other women, one third with men and about a third end up with other trans persons. What people don’t take into account is that it’s really about the person you fall in love with, not the body parts.



The complete article gives a variety of experiences and roles and may give some understanding of the complexities


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## Linford (22 Jan 2014)

Cunobelin said:


> Trans-gender changes are complex.
> 
> Quite often a same sex relationship will continue with one partner changing their "role as well as their gender. For instance a lesbian partnership may become a "husband and wife with a male role being adopted by the trans-gender partner
> 
> ...



If the body parts are not important, why go to the bother of getting them altered ?. I saw a series of documentaries a few years ago which had a lesbian couple who both wanted sex changes. One went through with it, but the other bottled. The relationship fell apart after the one became too masculine, and the other only really fancied women. 

Everyone to their own, but the butch lesbian thing strikes as someone who doesn't really know what they are or want to be.


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## ufkacbln (23 Jan 2014)

Their lives, their decisions - it is called freedom of choice.... 

As for the "Butch lesbian" stereotype, says more about the bigotry and closed minded attitudes of others rather than the relationship of the individuals


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## Melonfish (23 Jan 2014)

i purposely spoil my ballot papers in protest. i care not for which party sees power or which mp gets the local seat as they are all as ignorant as the next. yes men and women all who will rob peter to pay paul whilst denouncing another politician of the opposing party for robbing paul to pay peter...


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## Linford (23 Jan 2014)

Cunobelin said:


> Their lives, their decisions - it is called freedom of choice....
> 
> As for the "Butch lesbian" stereotype, says more about the bigotry and closed minded attitudes of others rather than the relationship of the individuals



Are you saying that there aren't really any Butch Lesbians, or that other peoples perception of the life choices of these women are wrong ?

Note..I'm not confusing them with Women with GID


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## Roadrider48 (23 Jan 2014)

Linford said:


> Are you saying that there aren't really any Butch Lesbians, or that other peoples perception of the life choices of these women are wrong ?
> 
> Note..I'm not confusing them with Women with GID


I think he's objecting to the fact that you had the nerve to actually write "butch lesbians".
It's quite a common phrase. But hey ho,this is 2014.


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## Linford (23 Jan 2014)

Roadrider48 said:


> I think he's objecting to the fact that you had the nerve to actually write "butch lesbians".
> It's quite a common phrase. But hey ho,this is 2014.



i'm perhaps not questioning why Butch Lesbians want to dress and act in a given way, but more why other women are attracted to them...after all, if I were a woman looking for a relationship with another woman (because they are a woman), I'd probably start with someone who makes an effort to look like one.

Did you see the series 'Ladyboys' on TV where the strapping heating engineer from Oop North got a Thai Ladyboyfriend (Pang) and did after a while fess up that he might be Gay, but found it easier to come out with a man who acts like a woman, than going for the Freddy Mercury type beefcake...He admitted that he was in denial.

We may be in 2014, but the reality is that people are still judged by others by their appearances.

Going back to this Woman in the OP, shre she does still look like a bloke, but imagine having to live like that..Such a tough life she must have had before and after the op !


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## brodiej (23 Jan 2014)

Linford said:


> .......if I were a woman looking for a relationship with another woman (because they are a woman), I'd probably start with someone who makes an effort to look like one.
> 
> 
> 
> We may be in 2014, but the reality is that people are still judged by others by their appearances....



I think you've just proved your own point


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## Linford (23 Jan 2014)

brodiej said:


> I think you've just proved your own point



You mean that some women are in denial so find it easier to come out by forming relationships with women who butch up ?

I've got a few friends who are lesbians, a couple who are in a very loving relationship, one butch, one mother of 5 kids. The Butch one is the most lovely person with an absolute heart of gold Who I have already and would continue to go that extra mile for. The Mother has a very hard shell butthen she has been throgh the mill (and some). Other couple both very girly girl stellar opposites. I'm certainly not condemning anyone for their life choices (especially if it gives them great happiness..which it clearly has), more intrigued what drives someone to decide they need to butch up.


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## Linford (23 Jan 2014)

2887919 said:


> You and your ludicrous optimism.




Don't ask me any queations if you won't answer mine Adrian Okaaaay !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## brodiej (23 Jan 2014)

Linford said:


> You mean that some women are in denial so find it easier to come out by forming relationships with women who butch up ?
> 
> .



No I definitely didn't mean that.

You said "We may be in 2014, but the reality is that people are still judged by others by their appearances." whilst making judgemental comments about people's appearance.

I was merely pointing out your hypocrisy.


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## Linford (23 Jan 2014)

brodiej said:


> No I definitely didn't mean that.
> 
> You said "We may be in 2014, but the reality is that people are still judged by others by their appearances." whilst making judgemental comments about people's appearance.
> 
> I was merely pointing out your hypocrisy.



Going Butch doesn't for one minute change someones personality or sexuality ...I'm just intrigued as to why someone would want to behave or dress in a masculine way ?


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## Linford (23 Jan 2014)

2887976 said:


>




Did you jump before being pushed Adrian ?


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## Roadrider48 (23 Jan 2014)

If a woman is attracted to women in the gay sense of the word, why would another woman dress up and look like a man to attract a woman? It seems like a fair question to me.


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## ufkacbln (23 Jan 2014)

People make the best of what they have and what they are

If someone has a gender change, they are not all going to be beautiful, perfect specimens of they gender

However being called a butch lesbian simply because you maintain some masculine traits in your personal appearance is derogatory and unacceptable


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## Roadrider48 (23 Jan 2014)

Cunobelin said:


> People make the best of what they have and what they are
> 
> If someone has a gender change, they are not all going to be beautiful, perfect specimens of they gender
> 
> However being called a butch lesbian simply because you maintain some masculine traits in your personal appearance is derogatory and unacceptable


That's not what we're saying. Plus, that is a widely used term on tv and many other places.
What the question is, is why do some lesbians make there self manly if they want to attract another woman who fancies woman? I am not homophobic btw.


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## ufkacbln (23 Jan 2014)

Read the article I posted....


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## Roadrider48 (23 Jan 2014)

User3094 said:


> Some lesbians might want to dress as purple flamingos....Some as Willy Bloody Wonka...... who fricking cares?! Its up to them


I don't care! So why are you telling me?
Anyway, that isn't what the question was. It's a fair question. Why can't anyone answer in some way without going all hyper PC defensive all the time?


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## Roadrider48 (23 Jan 2014)

User3094 said:


> What you have to ask yourself is why your even asking it?


Curiosity.


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## Joey Shabadoo (23 Jan 2014)

Melonfish said:


> i purposely spoil my ballot papers in protest. i care not for which party sees power or which mp gets the local seat as they are all as ignorant as the next. yes men and women all who will rob peter to pay paul whilst denouncing another politician of the opposing party for robbing paul to pay peter...



At the Election count, just before the result is announced the Assistant Returning Officer shows the spoiled papers to the candidates and their agents. At a Glasgow count I was at, one voter marked his paper thusly:

Candidate A - _*fiddle*_
Candidate B - _*fiddle*_
Candidate C - *fiddle*
Candidate D - *Good Guy*
Candidate E - *fiddle*

Candidate D's Agent tried to argue that this was indeed a positive endorsement for his man, but the Returning Officer was sadly having none of it.


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## Roadrider48 (23 Jan 2014)

2888185 said:


> The simplest answer is that our appearance and our sexuality don't have to match up in an easy codified way.


I get that Adrian. I was just asking a genuine question. But most answers are always swaying towards the fact that you shouldn't even have the cheek to ask in the first place and that you are automatically some kind of homophobe by default.


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## Linford (23 Jan 2014)

Cunobelin said:


> People make the best of what they have and what they are
> 
> If someone has a gender change, they are not all going to be beautiful, perfect specimens of they gender
> 
> However being called a butch lesbian simply because you maintain some masculine traits in your personal appearance is derogatory and unacceptable



That was not what I was implying Cunobelin.

Lesbian = Genetically a Woman, attracted to other women. 
Transgender = Male or female who has had Gender realignment surgery/Hormone treatment and is not living as the gender which they were born with.
I'm amazed you managed to get offended by your misunderstanding of what is being discussed here.
Others just seem to like being offended for the sake of it


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## coffeejo (23 Jan 2014)

What TMN said.

Do we really need to understand *why* someone falls in love with or is sexually attracted to another person? I question it when friends fall for someone who treats them badly but otherwise it's none of my business why they love that person, just that they do and are loved back and are happy.


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## midliferider (23 Jan 2014)

It appears that there is some misunderstanding of nomenclature used in describing sex.
Sex is a very complicated subject. I will try and simplify it.
Genetic sex- It is what your chromosome shows. Usually, it is XX which is a female and XY which is a male. Sometimes foetus end up with extra X or Y chromosomes. It could be for example XXY.
Phenotypical sex- what is the appearance of external genitalia. That is a male has a penis and female has a vulva and vagina. It does not always correlates with your genetic sex.
Gender identity is how a person would like to identify themselves as, man, woman or even neutral
Transgender is independent of one's sexual orientation
If you read about this subject, you will start to understand that it is very difficult to define who is a man or a woman. There is a theory which says that it best given as a percentage. Say one is 75% man and 25% woman.

After the dinner, I will try and see whether I can correlates this to cycles so that CC users can understand easily.


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## Roadrider48 (23 Jan 2014)

User13710 said:


> Do you think you could you define 'manly' for us? Are you suggesting it's possible to determine/define someone's sexuality by what they wear and how they look? Because if you are, it's not that you 'have a cheek', it's more that it's just an idiotic question. Adrian's answer is more reasoned than it deserves.


I know the difference, so no need for an explanation. 
But you on the other hand seem to have trouble in distinguishing between men and women if you have to ask.
Or maybe in your world there are no sexes and everyone is the same?


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## deptfordmarmoset (23 Jan 2014)

midliferider said:


> It appears that there is some misunderstanding of nomenclature used in describing sex.
> Sex is a very complicated subject. I will try and simplify it.
> Genetic sex- It is what your chromosome shows. Usually, it is XX which is a female and XY which is a male. Sometimes foetus end up with extra X or Y chromosomes. It could be for example XXY.
> Phenotypical sex- what is the appearance of external genitalia. That is a male has a penis and female has a vulva and vagina. It does not always correlates with your genetic sex.
> ...


And all that's without factoring in the algorithms of attraction.


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## midliferider (23 Jan 2014)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> And all that's without factoring in the algorithms of attraction.



This is *one* of the reasons why it is ludicrous to discriminate people on the basis of their sex or sexual orientation. It is not possible to be specific as to what category that a person belongs to.
This is similar to South African apartheid policy. It is simply not possible to categorise people to black or white.


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## midliferider (23 Jan 2014)

To explain this further in cycling terms
I have B Twin Triban 3. Decathlon manufactured and sell it as a road bike. That is like its genetic sex.
It has the appearance of a road bike or its phenotype is a road bike.
Now I have put 25 c tyres and mudguards and flip over the handle bar. Now it look like a hybrid. Its phenotype has changed.
Then I put a saddle rack and take it on tour. So it identity has now changed to a touring bike.
If you meet me on the road, you can not say whether it is a Road, Hybrid or Tourer.
It is just a bike.
Sex is like that. Forget what it is and just treat the person like any other person.
Can we get back to talk about what this person said about cyclists?


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## ComedyPilot (23 Jan 2014)

> cyclists should be forced to wear fluorescent jackets emblazoned with a registration number, much like a car.



I don't break the law, I don't break highway code 'rules', I aren't a danger to myself or other vulnerable road users, and frankly I am very sick of my pastime/transport mode/hobby being hijacked by so-called politicians to further their voting pool/cause controversy/promote their bile....


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## ufkacbln (24 Jan 2014)

Linford said:


> Going Butch doesn't for one minute change someones personality or sexuality ...I'm just intrigued as to why someone would want to behave or dress in a masculine way ?






Linford said:


> That was not what I was implying Cunobelin.
> 
> Lesbian = Genetically a Woman, attracted to other women.
> Transgender = Male or female who has had Gender realignment surgery/Hormone treatment and is not living as the gender which they were born with.
> ...



This again shows a misunderstanding, please read the article I posted

If a male changes gender to female then that is a choice they make, they are not genetically female, but to all intents and purposes have chosen to act, live and "be" female.

A lesbian relationship or same sex relationship is an appropriate term to describe this.

Your statement that you can only be a lesbian if you are genetically female is ill informed at best

The point is that we do not need to "understand" the way someone acts, chooses to dress, how masculine or feminine they want to appear, who they decide to have a relationship with or whether they consider themselves male or female.... it is a personal decision and often one taken with a lot of deep soul searching, unhappiness and trauma , recognise that and accept them for what they are


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## Linford (24 Jan 2014)

Cunobelin said:


> This again shows a misunderstanding, please read the article I posted
> 
> If a male changes gender to female then that is a choice they make, they are not genetically female, but to all intents and purposes have chosen to act, live and "be" female.
> 
> ...



When a man lives as a woman, but hasn't had the surgery, then you are saying he can be classed as a woman because he has made that lifestyle choice ?

And conversely, a female to male sex change cannot be a true sex change because they cannot anatomically alter the female sex organs to mimic those of the genetic male sex organs...the best they might hope for is a bit of erm.... 'window dressing'


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## Linford (24 Jan 2014)

User13710 said:


> Don't be silly. You didn't define what you mean by 'manly' though.



That would be dressing like a bloke, getting a blokey style hair cut, attempting to mimic the manerisms of a bloke with tone of voice and experssion to suit (not in an Alan Carr sort of blokey way) ... sort of the opposite of a Ladyboy/TV


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## theclaud (24 Jan 2014)

I think Linford's posts in this thread tell us all that we need to know about the fragile, socially-constructed edifice of masculine identity, so I don't propose to get more involved. What was this thread about again, anyway?


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## coffeejo (24 Jan 2014)

I've just read a lovely PM from someone who said they like me for who I am, as I am.

And after a night of not being able to stop thinking about this thread (thanks for that), I'm starting to wonder if the assertion that it's not about homophobia is correct. I think it's about sexism. I think there are people in this world/community/forum who don't like that some men stop being men and choose to become members of the weaker/lesser sex. They don't like that some women reject men as the objects of their sexual desire. And they don't like women who not only appear to take on so-called masculine traits by "butching" themselves up, but also attract women who should be sleeping with men! 

That's just the way I see it. 

Which takes me back to that PM. Like many of the things said in this thread, it brought me to tears. But this time in relief. Acceptance for who I am. No questions about my hair cut, choice of clothes, who I do or don't fancy. Just the ability to look past differences and see the things we have in common. And that person - and all the others - are worth 100 of those who are narrow minded and who get on their high horses if you dare to suggest that it's this attitude and not gender/sexuality that makes for a lesser being.


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## theclaud (24 Jan 2014)

User3094 said:


> Respect where its due, he's now got the Racist / Misogynist / Homophobe hat trick.


Now?


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## Linford (24 Jan 2014)

coffeejo said:


> I've just read a lovely PM from someone who said they like me for who I am, as I am.
> 
> And after a night of not being able to stop thinking about this thread (thanks for that), I'm starting to wonder if the assertion that it's not about homophobia is correct. I think it's about sexism. I think there are people in this world/community/forum who don't like that some men stop being men and choose to become members of the weaker/lesser sex. They don't like that some women reject men as the objects of their sexual desire. And they don't like women who not only appear to take on so-called masculine traits by "butching" themselves up, but also attract women who should be sleeping with men!
> 
> ...




Accepting a person for who they are is not the same as understanding or not understanding why someone would make those life choices.

If you identified with the subject matter, and were offended because of that, then on my part it certainly wasn't intentional or targetted....I've never met you or seen a pic (sorry if you felt it was)

It is more for me just curiosity about how those life choices come about in specific groups, and not that I would expect anyone to look or behave any differently because there is a gap in knowledge or understanding.


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## coffeejo (24 Jan 2014)

Linford said:


> Accepting a person for who they are is not the same as understanding or not understanding why someone would make those life choices.
> 
> If you identified with the subject matter, and were offended because of that, then on my part it certainly wasn't intentional or targetted....I've never met you or seen a pic (sorry if you felt it was)
> 
> It is more for me just curiosity about how those life choices come about in specific groups, and not that I would expect anyone to look or behave any differently because there is a gap in knowledge or understanding.


What a pity you didn't say that 5 pages ago.


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## Linford (24 Jan 2014)

coffeejo said:


> What a pity you didn't say that 5 pages ago.



If someone makes a choice to live this way, then that will be a life where others will be puzzled by those choices. At least we live in a society where people might understandably ask these questions, but still gives freedom to exercise this choice....In much of the world, many societies take a totally different approach to trying to understand the differences....they just don't !


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## Markymark (24 Jan 2014)

Quite how gay people choose to act will influenced by society. For lesbians to butch-up, this will most likely have strong links to how gay people have been treated for decades of being marginalised and adjusting their behaviour to gain further acceptance. I would suggest that how gay people behave(whether being camp, butch, macho) has changed through the centuries and throughout the world as is this case for all other humans.

For example, gay men have typically taken up female characteristics as perhaps as a group they would gain better acceptance. However, after the AIDS epidemic became the focus of media, it became fashionable for some gay men to be seen as strong and macho to show they didn't show some of the characteristics of AIDS sufferers (weaker, thinner etc).


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## coffeejo (24 Jan 2014)

I've not had nearly enough coffee to get my head around @0-markymark-0's comment, but on the topic of choice, for me, the only choices I make about my gender and sexuality are the same choices that everyone makes, whether they're male, female, straight, gay, bi, from the little choices about clothing/fashion to the ones about whether to respond in the affirmative if asked out, etc.

I did spend most of my childhood wishing I was a boy but as I grew older, I realised that was actually about how little girls were treated and expected to behave - I wanted the right to wear shorts/trousers to school, to play with cars and diggers and climb trees and do all the exciting things that my boy friends did. Aside from periods and risking a black eye whenever I run, I'm happy as a woman. And when it comes to sex, at no point have ever, ever wished I had a penis. So when it comes to my gender, there is no choice for me, just like there's no choice for any of us. I'm just lucky to be in the vast majority whose sense of self fits into the body it was born with.

Despite some rather cruel comments made when I came out, being a lesbian has nothing to do with my parents or my childhood or my preference for climbing (and falling out of) trees. It just is. I've got blue eyes, ridiculously little hands and am sexually attracted to women. I chose to come out, to live my life being honest, but it's not a lifestyle. I know women and men who got married and had kids when they were younger because that's what they were expected to do, and only admitted (or discovered) the truth (for want of a better description) when they were in their 50s or later. I know others who have never slept with a person of the opposite gender.

And whenever I'm asked about that, my answer is simple. How do YOU know your sexual preferences?

HTH


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## Roadrider48 (24 Jan 2014)

User13710 said:


> Don't be silly. You didn't define what you mean by 'manly' though.


A man! To look like a man. Can you not tell the difference?


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## Roadrider48 (24 Jan 2014)

coffeejo said:


> I've not had nearly enough coffee to get my head around @0-markymark-0's comment, but on the topic of choice, for me, the only choices I make about my gender and sexuality are the same choices that everyone makes, whether they're male, female, straight, gay, bi, from the little choices about clothing/fashion to the ones about whether to respond in the affirmative if asked out, etc.
> 
> I did spend most of my childhood wishing I was a boy but as I grew older, I realised that was actually about how little girls were treated and expected to behave - I wanted the right to wear shorts/trousers to school, to play with cars and diggers and climb trees and do all the exciting things that my boy friends did. Aside from periods and risking a black eye whenever I run, I'm happy as a woman. And when it comes to sex, at no point have ever, ever wished I had a penis. So when it comes to my gender, there is no choice for me, just like there's no choice for any of us. I'm just lucky to be in the vast majority whose sense of self fits into the body it was born with.
> 
> ...


For what it's worth....I never meant to insult or offend anyone. It was supposed to be a genuine question.
If you feel offended by anything I have said here, I sincerely apologise; that was not my intention.
For the record, I am not racist, homophobic, sexist or any other. Sometimes I get carried away and talk bollocks but that's about it.


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## Roadrider48 (24 Jan 2014)

User13710 said:


> What, you mean like ... wearing trousers? Good grief! You'll be telling me women are allowed to ride bicycles next.


only stepthroughs!


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## Frood42 (24 Jan 2014)

User3094 said:


> Man:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I never knew Jeremy clarkson had so many sides to him 
I thought Jeremy just went about making "brum", "brum" noises...

Isn't the second picture of that artist fellow? I forget his name...

How does dressing like that identify you as a woman..?

Clothes aren't a gender identifier.
.


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## ufkacbln (24 Jan 2014)

But do we really need to "understand" an individual's choices, especially where each one is exactly that an individual and will have come to that choice for different reasons.

The implication is that you can "understand" person A, but cannot "understand" person B because they came to the same decisions by a different route.

An individual is who they are now and that there is no need for anyone to understand how they became that person to accept them for who they are.


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## Linford (24 Jan 2014)

coffeejo said:


> I've not had nearly enough coffee to get my head around @0-markymark-0's comment, but on the topic of choice, for me, the only choices I make about my gender and sexuality are the same choices that everyone makes, whether they're male, female, straight, gay, bi, from the little choices about clothing/fashion to the ones about whether to respond in the affirmative if asked out, etc.
> 
> I did spend most of my childhood wishing I was a boy but as I grew older, I realised that was actually about how little girls were treated and expected to behave - I wanted the right to wear shorts/trousers to school, to play with cars and diggers and climb trees and do all the exciting things that my boy friends did. Aside from periods and risking a black eye whenever I run, I'm happy as a woman. And when it comes to sex, at no point have ever, ever wished I had a penis. So when it comes to my gender, there is no choice for me, just like there's no choice for any of us. I'm just lucky to be in the vast majority whose sense of self fits into the body it was born with.
> 
> ...



You might find it strange, but I really do totally get this.

The way I see it is you are either attracted to someone of the same gender or you are not. It is hard wired into your personality. I can see that many women can and do find beauty easily in the form of other women...perhaps because we are surrounded by examples of that, and society and industry is geared around beautifying women, and there was and still is enormous pressure on people to suppress their true self to conform to peer pressure or expectations of their families and society as a whole. I suspect that they haven't really discovered the truth, but instead lived a lie until it consumed them, and the felt their mortality creeping up on them before realising that this life they are living is not a rehearsal for the next one.

Do you actually have to experience a same sex or opposite sex experience to know what or who you are drawn to ?....I don't think so, and by the sounds nor do you.

Back to the Gender issue, I don't think there is a single person dead or alive who might have not wanted to experience what it could be like to have the gender of the opposite sex for a day (without the surgery). I guess that really could open a whole can of worms though as they may actually like the experience too much to reclaim their biological gender.


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## Frood42 (24 Jan 2014)

User13710 said:


> Let us know when you find out what is.



You may be waiting for sometime for an answer to that.
A person is who they are, whatever baggage they may or may not come with, whether they identify male or female, whether their genes identify them as male or female or if their "parts" do.

If a person wears what are considered by "normal" society to be male or female clothing items who am I to judge?
I can have an opinion on that, but it would be wrong of me to condemn a "bloke" for a wearing a skirt or a "lass" for wearing trousers.

If a person is happy and comfortable with who they are then I am happy for them.

I am far, far, far from perfect, but I would hope I see the person rather than wondering what category they fit into.

Of course there is also the side of me that looks at a woman in a skirt and appreciates if she has nice legs or not. 
.


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## ComedyPilot (24 Jan 2014)

User13710 said:


> Yes. Indefinitely of course, as there is no such thing [as a gender identifier]. Contrary to what some people seem to think, it's not possible to look at someone and see what gender they are - no matter how 'manly' or 'womanly' they might appear. We could hazard a guess at what sex they are, *but even then we might be mistaken*. So all the stuff about 'why do these people want to look this way?' and 'reclaiming one's biological gender' is just ill-informed rubbish, as usual.



I was........


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## Frood42 (24 Jan 2014)

2890568 said:


> Quite right, you don't want to alienate loads of Scotsmen.



 quite right indeed

They can throw those cabers quite a long way 
.


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