# Oh. My. God! Who's to blame?



## Sh4rkyBloke (24 May 2011)

Just seen this posted over on Bike Radar.... words fail me. I'd be interested in seeing how different people dissect it to apportion blame for what happens.

Video is here


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## Jezston (24 May 2011)

Damnit! I'd just come here to post the same video after seeing it on Reddit 


I was going to title the thread "stupid fakenger muppet almost gets himself killed" which shows how I feel about who was at blame!


I can't see how any blame at all could be apportioned to anyone else.Too many people riding like that in the cities these days.


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## XmisterIS (24 May 2011)

Captain Nut-Nut on bicycle + bus + mini truck = splat. Simples.


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## Clive Atton (24 May 2011)

I hope he has to pay for the respray of the pickups nearside. What a tw*t.


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## BentMikey (24 May 2011)

Well 'k me!! What a horrible thing to see, and I'm so glad he wasn't seriously injured or dead. Stupid 'kwit on a bicycle though.


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## tyred (24 May 2011)

There's only one person to blame there and he wasn't driving a bus or a pickup truck.


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## MacB (24 May 2011)

definite case of seeing a gap, or not


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## TwickenhamCyclist (24 May 2011)

Well – at least he walked away! I don’t think you can blame the bus driver for this one. In my opinion you overtake when it’s safe to do so... Can’t see why the bus is taking that angle – poor judgement on behalf of the cyclist – putting yourself between 2 vehicles (especially when one is a moving bus) is not advisable. 

And lets face it, if a bus or a car driver had tried to squeeze through a gap with a moving cyclist on the left, we’d all be calling for his/her licence to be taken away... and some


Cyclist fault – glad he’s ok – feel sorry for the pickup driver’s paint work!


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## monkeypony (24 May 2011)

Cyclist is a complete twat. Talk about asking for it!

If there was such a thing as a 'cycling license' he would deserve to loose it for that.


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## MrHappyCyclist (24 May 2011)

Good grief, I feel sick now.



Sh4rkyBloke said:


> I'd be interested in seeing how different people dissect it to apportion blame for what happens.



The cyclist, 100%. I hope it's knocked some sense into him.


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## SquareDaff (24 May 2011)

The cyclist totally to blame! What a kn0b! The bus is moving and the cyclists aims for a gap that's getting smaller all the time and doesn't make it!! 
Glad he's OK - even though I hope his testicles got irrepairably damaged. That idiot shouldn't be allowed to have children!


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## SW19cam (24 May 2011)

Cyclist's fault. The 3 foot concept works both ways...(!!)


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## TwickenhamCyclist (24 May 2011)

Anyone else notice the other muppet going up the gap at around 36 seconds in...?


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## lit (24 May 2011)

I love how some drivers start beeping despite someone possibly suffering serious injury or worse, cyclists fault though for riding like a idiot.


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## yello (24 May 2011)

There we have it. Proof positive that some cyclists are total planks too. He was bloody lucky, that could have been very nasty. What the hell was he thinking?

Amazed also that another cyclist then takes the same route! Dear lord.


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## Angelfishsolo (24 May 2011)

Is that the same courier who has posted videos of himself jumping red lights and generally behaving like a bell end? Either way the cyclist is most certainly in the wrong and if I was the truck driver I would have f'ing chinned him (out of camera shot as I would have been )


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## Simba (24 May 2011)

When will people learn to not try and squeeze a tenth of a second off their journey by taking suicidal risks is beyond me. Cyclist 100% at fault there.


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## Chilternrides (24 May 2011)

Another vote for the plum on a bike; his minimal check before sweeping out into the outside of the traffic had me worried to begin with, and then to go for an ever-diminishing gap at that speed...well it's all been said already.

I'd rather not think about the slow learner who had just witnessed that and went for the same route anyway; obviously keen to occupy a wooden box sooner rather than later...


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## Andrew_P (24 May 2011)

Simba said:


> When will people learn to not try and squeeze a tenth of a second off their journey by taking suicidal risks is beyond me. Cyclist 100% at fault there.




This why I stopped racing the Garmin, I found myself taking a few risks (nothing like that twat though)


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## mog35 (24 May 2011)

Chilternrides said:


> Another vote for the plum on a bike; his minimal check before sweeping out into the outside of the traffic had me worried to begin with



That's what I thought, that he'd collide headlong with a bus coming the other way.

But as others have said, entirely his fault. I really don't understand why people take such risks, whether they're on a bike or in a car. Is it really worth it? And I couldn't believe the other rider who also decided to take that route.

At 0:47 you see him prop his bike up against that black building on the corner. His front wheel looks pretty mangled. Hopefully he's learned his lesson.


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## zacklaws (24 May 2011)

LOCO said:


> This why I stopped racing the Garmin, I found myself taking a few risks (nothing like that twat though)



The cyclists a complete idiot to take a risk like that, but is it also the culture of many cyclists of "racing" others on your commute to work and this childish mentality of scalping, that you may be "scalped" or try to "scalp" others that can make cyclists take risks that way. Was he trying to race the cyclist with the camera?

Before the incident with the bus, what would have happened if a pedestrian suddenly appeared from between the vehicles crossing the road, or even pedestrians in the gap between the vehicles he cut through, or even a passenger door opening in his face. Undertaking traffic, even though it may be a cycle lane is a perilous undertaking at times, only this year I had a car pull into the cycle lane in front of me unexepectantly which gave me a fright, but in towns and cities, I always keep my speeds low for the conditions and just stick with the flow.


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## Jezston (24 May 2011)

mog35 said:


> Hopefully he's learned his lesson.




That or he'll be down the pub afterwards with all his fakenger mates going on about how awesome it was and how hardcore he is and they'll all slap each other on the backs and continue riding like c***s.


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## GrasB (24 May 2011)

What a twat! But that said I see people taking similar risks every time I go into town.

One thing that interests me is that the fastest cyclists always seem to be overtaking the same slower cyclists when riding across town.


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## HLaB (24 May 2011)

Bejesus, I thought I was seeing a death there, I was amazed and glad to see them reappearing, even if it was completely stupid nobody deserves to be hurt. I'm also relieved for the bus & truck drivers, through no fault of theirs they were almost wrapped up in something that would have haunted them for the rest of their lives.


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## Asprilla (24 May 2011)

zacklaws said:


> The cyclists a complete idiot to take a risk like that, but is it also the culture of many cyclists of "racing" others on your commute to work and this childish mentality of scalping, that you may be "scalped" or try to "scalp" others that can make cyclists take risks that way. Was he trying to race the cyclist with the camera?



Are you a subscriber to the Daily Mail or one of their actual journalists?


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## ThePainInSpain (24 May 2011)

The bloke is total twat and should be shot.

What about the trauma caused to the drivers and witness. Inconsiderate moron.

As a cyclist, Motorist (NOT moton, thank you) and a scooterist I sometimes find it satisfying to see things like this, to show some of you out there, it's NOT ALWAYS the fault of somebody else.


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## Origamist (24 May 2011)

The guy made a serious error (the gap was only going to get smaller), but I'm glad he was able to walk away from the incident.


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## zacklaws (24 May 2011)

Asprilla said:


> Are you a subscriber to the Daily Mail or one of their actual journalists?



Neither, don't buy papers as they are usually full of shite, but why do you ask?


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## MrHappyCyclist (24 May 2011)

ThePainInSpain said:


> I sometimes find it satisfying to see things like this, to show some of you out there, it's NOT ALWAYS the fault of somebody else.


Good grief, you may be onto something there!


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## LosingFocus (24 May 2011)

What's a "fakenger"?


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## gaz (24 May 2011)

I think this guy has watched a few too many lucas brunelle videos and is trying to copy him.




zacklaws said:


> The cyclists a complete idiot to take a risk like that, but is it also the culture of many cyclists of "racing" others on your commute to work and this childish mentality of scalping, that you may be "scalped" or try to "scalp" others that can make cyclists take risks that way. Was he trying to race the cyclist with the camera?



Whilst you may think it is childish. If you take the time to read the rules, then it can only take place on non congested roads, basiclaly no filtering and it has to be done safely.


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## HLaB (24 May 2011)

LosingFocus said:


> What's a "fakenger"?



Somebody who tries to copy (Fake) the bike Messenger style because the think its trendy.


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## dellzeqq (24 May 2011)

strange to say the video starts at Helmet Row....

anyroadup - all power to the boy. He's clearly speedy and quite durable. One suspects that he'd just come out of 'Look Mum...' fortified by one of their 'flat whites' and needed to be in Broadway Market to buy himself some socks - it's tragic that, after only a year of Coalition government, young people are enduring sock shortages. And, yes, I have screamed down Old Street at warp five, but always, always, always on the wrong side of the road.........


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## Alien8 (24 May 2011)

I blame the women on the mobile just about to cross the road - she clearly distracted him.


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## HLaB (24 May 2011)

If he had been wearing a helmet would he have been more reckless (risk compensation) or would it have been more likely he'd made worse contact with the bus leading to injury


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## Sh4rkyBloke (24 May 2011)

<Full on sarcasm mode> Blimey... spend some time away doing some work and come back to find everyone blaming the poor victim!!! </Full on sarcasm mode>

Yup, complete f*ckwit on the bike... I'd be livid if I was in the truck as clearly that will require some remedial paint work/dent removal (as well as stain removal on the driver's seat I would think!!) and I'm quite surprised the filming cyclists didn't stop to leave his details as a witness and make the people aware that there is video evidence should it be required.

The only other thing I will say is that the bus came veeeeeeeeeery close to the back of the truck when starting off... anyone have any ideas why as the gap looked pretty big!

Made me laugh the way the idiot throws his bike onto the pavement when he's stopped by the corner building... like it's the bike's fault! Muppet!


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## marinyork (24 May 2011)

Sh4rkyBloke said:


> Just seen this posted over on Bike Radar.... words fail me. I'd be interested in seeing how different people dissect it to apportion blame for what happens.
> 
> Video is here



25% bus driver, 10% pick up, 65% cyclist. I apportioned the blame to the cyclist mostly on the ridiculous speed he does it at on top of committing identical stupidities that the bus driver does. I'm not a fan of people making up absurd excuses like "I only had 8 seconds to see him guv" as often blights these sort of things, but in this case you can see there was a 2 second window for both cyclist and bus driver to react and it was too late for the cyclist, and the bus driver probably couldn't even see him until even less than that.


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## LosingFocus (24 May 2011)

Maybe he needs some back brakes on his fixie...


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## MacB (24 May 2011)

It does make you think though, had it been a tragic outcome and had there been no video of the incident....what would people be saying?

It's a good reminder of just how willfully stupid some people can be, cyclists included.


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## Asprilla (24 May 2011)

zacklaws said:


> Neither, don't buy papers as they are usually full of shite, but why do you ask?



Mainly the fact that you clearly don't understand silly commuter racing, and yet have immediately linked it to this scenario on the basis of no evidence whatsoever. It's typical of the shite, as you put it, that is generally found in newspapers like the Daily Mail.


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## postman (24 May 2011)

If i had been the driver of the truck .Minding my own ,that twat would be wearing both wheels as a necklace now .What an idiot .I hope he offered to pay for the damage ,sure tohad been some paint damage .Numpty .


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## Sh4rkyBloke (24 May 2011)

marinyork said:


> *25% bus driver, 10% pick up, 65% cyclist*. I apportioned the blame to the cyclist mostly on the ridiculous speed he does it at on top of committing identical stupidities that the bus driver does. I'm not a fan of people making up absurd excuses like "I only had 8 seconds to see him guv" as often blights these sort of things, but in this case you can see there was a 2 second window for both cyclist and bus driver to react and it was too late for the cyclist, *and the bus driver probably couldn't even see him until even less than that*.



I'm intrigued to see how/why the truck driver gets any blame in this.. and also some reasoning for the 25% for the bus driver when you then go on to say that he probably couldn't have seen the cyclist until the last second anyway. Have I misunderstood something in what you put?


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## MacB (24 May 2011)

Asprilla said:


> Mainly the fact that you clearly don't understand silly commuter racing, and yet have immediately linked it to this scenario on the basis of no evidence whatsoever. It's typical of the shite, as you put it, that is generally found in newspapers like the Daily Mail.



a little harsh there, I think it's quite easy to tie a link between 'time saving' risk taking and SCR - yes, I know there are rules for SCR but there are rules for lots of things, doesn't mean they get followed.


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## dellzeqq (24 May 2011)

marinyork said:


> 25% bus driver, 10% pick up, 65% cyclist. I apportioned the blame to the cyclist mostly on the ridiculous speed he does it at on top of committing identical stupidities that the bus driver does. I'm not a fan of people making up absurd excuses like "I only had 8 seconds to see him guv" as often blights these sort of things, but in this case you can see there was a 2 second window for both cyclist and bus driver to react and it was too late for the cyclist, and the bus driver probably couldn't even see him until even less than that.


not fair on the bus driver. They have a lot to do, and, by an large, look out for cyclists in a big way. I don't even think the pick-up driver had much to do with it.......

All I can say, from the standpoint who has been hauled off to A+E six times (and, five times out of six it was my fault) that riding a bike sometimes gets the better of your judgement. And, in this case, a decent set of brakes would have helped. 

What's really striking is the bloke in the blue top going through the gap after him..


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## TwickenhamCyclist (24 May 2011)

marinyork said:


> 25% bus driver, *10% pick up,* 65% cyclist. I apportioned the blame to the cyclist mostly on the ridiculous speed he does it at on top of committing identical stupidities that the bus driver does. I'm not a fan of people making up absurd excuses like "I only had 8 seconds to see him guv" as often blights these sort of things, but in this case you can see there was a 2 second window for both cyclist and bus driver to react and it was too late for the cyclist, and the bus driver probably couldn't even see him until even less than that.



How?


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## BentMikey (24 May 2011)

I can't see how any blame could be placed on either the pickup driver or the bus driver in that video clip. It's blatantly 100% the cyclists' fault.


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## Camgreen (24 May 2011)

Surprised no one has picked up on the cyclist in purple (36 secs in) who exhibits almost as poor judgement in using the same gap, albeit at a much more cautious pace; he/she must've seen what had just happened but blithely followed suit. Amazing.


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## semislickstick (24 May 2011)

His front wheel looked a bit mangled, I expect thats why he chucked it....he couldn't wheel it. Do you think it got run over or the sudden stop? His rear wheel almost goes over him.

So are both those lanes for straight on into a single lane? Is anything from the bus lane supposed to merge into the right lane(and signal)? Is the bus/left lane for turning left and the right lane for right turn and straight on? 

Bus was getting a bit close to the van! Lucky lad. Lucky, lucky lad. 'Put some money on the lottery' lucky.


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## Asprilla (24 May 2011)

MacB said:


> a little harsh there, I think it's quite easy to tie a link between 'time saving' risk taking and SCR - yes, I know there are rules for SCR but there are rules for lots of things, doesn't mean they get followed.



Did anyone ask the chap in this clip if he was playing SCR or even knows what it is? No, so it's just speculation. This was a guy cycling too quickly for conditions and going for a rapidly closing gap that he didn't make.

It's not easy to tie a link, it's lazy. If a journalist tied a link between this video and all cycle accidents we'd be up in arms.


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## MacB (24 May 2011)

Asprilla said:


> Did anyone ask the chap in this clip if he was playing SCR or even knows what it is? No, so it's just speculation. This was a guy cycling too quickly for conditions and going for a rapidly closing gap that he didn't make.
> 
> It's not easy to tie a link, it's lazy. If a journalist tied a link between this video and all cycle accidents we'd be up in arms.



the link is not if he's indulging in SCR it's if he's indulging in risk taking to shorten his journey time, which I think he clearly is. I'm sure you are an exemplary example of playing SCR strictly by the rules and only indulging when it's safe to do so. But surely you can see there might be a link between the existence of SCR and increased risk taking?


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## marinyork (24 May 2011)

TwickenhamCyclist said:


> How?



The positioning of the pick up truck appears to be poor. Contrary to popular myth, a stationary vehicle does not absolve people completely and utterly from responsibility - it just reduces it drastically. You do have a duty to position your vehicle as well as possible in such scenarios. Sadly that doesn't happen in real life every single time and you get someone aggressive come along and you get situations like this - very similar with car v car.


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## Origamist (24 May 2011)

It's the junction with Old St and Central St and Golden Lane (the pick-up was trying to go right into Central St). Two narrow lanes (bus lane, traffic lane) into one traffic lane and a cylce lane when you're through the junction. It creates a pinch point.

The bus lane ends before the junction and most left turning cars move into the left lane and most cars going straight on stay right. However, if there is a right turning vehicle blocking the junction, most cars move from the right lane, to the left in order to go straight ahead (squeezing cyclists usually). When you're through the junction it's a cycle lane and traffic lane.


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## marinyork (24 May 2011)

Sh4rkyBloke said:


> I'm intrigued to see how/why the truck driver gets any blame in this.. and also some reasoning for the 25% for the bus driver when you then go on to say that he probably couldn't have seen the cyclist until the last second anyway. Have I misunderstood something in what you put?



About the pick up see my other post, as for the bus driver lanes, space and markings matter. The very short version is the bus driver gets some of the blame because he executed a very poor manoeuvre moving over into the virtual other lane (just) with a change of direction and he didn't even indicate (which some would say he should do and others not). We all know why he was doing this and it's very laudable, but it still doesn't change that it is a bloody stupid thing to be doing both undertaking and overtaking traffic when you have a bad junction and a badly slung pick up truck. A bus is a large and wide vehicle and has a particular care of duty overtaking. Strictly speaking there's not that much wrong with the hipsters movement, if you look carefully he's back in lane before the junction. He might as well have let the bus go though. So we're left with other factors - about 6-8 seconds from the lights going green to the collision that's a very small amount of time to take in such huge distance and so many vehicles. The reason why I'm sympathetic to the bus driver is it is a busy urban setting with many vehicles and in that context it's a very narrow window to take a lot in. The bus driver is not driving with greatly excessive speed either and as been typical of when I've riden in London, allows a good weighty amount of time before pulling out.

I know people often query this when I say it, but lanes and overtaking really do matter. So if you run into a ninja cyclist it's partially your fault, if a vehicle is doing 100mph behind you and you pull off a stunt of overtaking someone else and then 100mph vehicle ploughs into the back of you in spectacular fashion then again it's partly your fault. A simpler 2 or 3 vehicle scenario is different to one with about 10 or 15 like here. This is why I apportion little blame to the bus driver in this scenario. I was just contrasting it with the excusemongers who come up with stuff for much simpler happenings and then say they didn't have time to react.


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## Rhythm Thief (24 May 2011)

Contrary to Marinyork's rather ridiculous assertion, the pickup truck driver wasn't doing anything wrong. Neither the bus driver. Blame there lies solely with the cyclist, who is clearly an idiot and will shortly be wearing a wooden overcoat if he carries on riding like that. If you ever find yourself wondering why everyone hates cyclists and thinks they're dangerous loonies, you have only to watch this video.


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## marinyork (24 May 2011)

Rhythm Thief said:


> Contrary to Marinyork's rather ridiculous assertion, the pickup truck driver wasn't doing anything wrong. Neither the bus driver. Blame there lies solely with the cyclist, who is clearly an idiot and will shortly be wearing a wooden overcoat if he carries on riding like that. If you ever find yourself wondering why everyone hates cyclists and thinks they're dangerous loonies, you have only to watch this video.



And it's very nice to see you too. Unlike the contrarian RT who likes to wind people up and post unthought out and provocative things as he knows he can get away with it as a moderator I've briefly explained what I think. Any particular reason why you think this? Do you actually think about things at all? Any processes in there? 

Is it all right to have poor road positioning at junctions? Is it all right to be pulling out in to other virtual lanes? Is it all right to be overtaking and undertaking at junctions simultaneously? Is it all right to be doing this when you can see a problem ahead like the pick up truck?


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## Rhythm Thief (24 May 2011)

marinyork said:


> ... as for the bus driver lanes, space and markings matter. The very short version is the bus driver gets some of the blame because he executed a very poor manoeuvre moving over into the *virtual other lane* (just) with a change of direction and* he didn't even indicate* (which some would say he should do and others not). We all know why he was doing this and it's very laudable, but it still doesn't change that it is a bloody stupid thing to be doing both undertaking and overtaking traffic when you have a bad junction and a badly slung pick up truck. *A bus is a large and wide vehicle and has a particular care of duty overtaking.* Strictly speaking there's not that much wrong with the hipsters movement, if you look carefully he's back in lane before the junction. He might as well have let the bus go though. So we're left with other factors - about *6-8 seconds from the lights going green to the collision that's a very small amount of time to take in such huge distance and so many vehicles.*The reason why I'm sympathetic to the bus driver is it is a busy urban setting with many vehicles and in that context it's a very narrow window to take a lot in. The bus driver is not driving with greatly excessive speed either and as been typical of when I've riden in London, allows a good weighty amount of time before pulling out.



The problem with this is that it's utter bollocks. "Virtual other lane"? What are you talking about? "Didn't even indicate"? Why would he? All he was doing was pulling away from traffic lights which had just changed. Do you indicate to go straight on at traffic lights? "Particular care of duty (_sic_) overtaking"? Well, apart from the fact that I think you mean "duty of care", the fact is that this is absolutely true but irrelevant in this case since the bus driver wasn't actually overtaking anything. Finally, if you're excusing the suicide jockey on the bike on the grounds that "6-8 seconds [is] a very small amount of time to take in such a huge distance and so many vehicles", then you should really cut the bus driver rather more slack than you have on the grounds that some cocksponge on a bike appearing next to his back wheel with perhaps two seconds' notice gives him even less time to react. Besides, it's a feeble excuse anyway: if the cyclist is unable to process the information he's got in the time available, then a) he's riding too fast, and b) he probably shouldn't really be riding around in a busy urban environment in the first place. Perhaps a red and yellow tricycle in the sandpit is more his level of ability.


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## Rhythm Thief (24 May 2011)

marinyork said:


> And it's very nice to see you too. Unlike the contrarian RT who likes to wind people up and post unthought out and provocative things as he knows he can get away with it as a moderator I've briefly explained what I think. Any particular reason why you think this? Do you actually think about things at all? Any processes in there?
> 
> Is it all right to have poor road positioning at junctions? Is it all right to be pulling out in to other virtual lanes? *Is it all right to be overtaking and undertaking at junctions simultaneously?* Is it all right to be doing this when you can see a problem ahead like the pick up truck?



I'm baffled as to why you think the pickup truck was positioned poorly. He was turning right, he'd positioned his vehicle in the right hand lane with the indicator on. What, incidentally, is the "problem _ahead" _that the pickup driver should be able to see? The only problem here comes charging in from behind, going for a gap which was too small to begin with and was only ever going to get smaller. I've explained why I think the bus was doing nothing wrong above, but I'd be interested to hear what this "virtual lane" is that you keep mentioning. 
As for the bit I've put in bold ... well, no it isn't. And the only person doing that here was the cyclist. 

Petty jealousy about my not-very-secret mod status will get you nowhere.


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## 4F (24 May 2011)

100% fault with the cyclist, one word muppet.


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## LosingFocus (24 May 2011)

*applauds RT*


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## BentMikey (24 May 2011)

Yes, I'm with RT, but could you both tone it down a bit please? Your posts are both getting a trifle heated, and that would never do.


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## jugglingphil (24 May 2011)

I'm another who blames the cyclist. 

I've watched it back after reading Marinyork's comments about bus and pickup. I do know what Marinyork is saying, positioning and lane discipline are important, but not sure I agree. Road positioning on pickup isn't bad. Perhaps the pickup is partly to blame for driving an unnecessarily large vehicle in town. The bus does move slightly to the right/middle of of lane, but as we can't see (and neither can fakenger) what is happening to the front-left of the bus. It looks to me that the bus is moving out slightly to avoid traveling in the cycle lane which starts again after the junction. Indicating for such small road positional change is likely to confuse other users at the junction.

The cyclist must take into account the road layout and traffic and can not expect to travel at full-speed. Why not cruise up behind the bus and taxi, stay in the bus/cycle lane, would have only been slowed down by a few seconds.


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## BentMikey (24 May 2011)

Heated trifle is only for crazy people, after all...


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## Asprilla (24 May 2011)

MacB said:


> the link is not if he's indulging in SCR it's if he's indulging in risk taking to shorten his journey time, which I think he clearly is. I'm sure you are an exemplary example of playing SCR strictly by the rules and only indulging when it's safe to do so. But surely you can see there might be a link between the existence of SCR and increased risk taking?



Of course there might be a link between scr and increased risk taking, but (whisper it) there may also be a link between cycling and increased risk taking. Generally though, there isn't. SCR is more to do with stopping yourself from pootling when there is no need to; you see a cyclist in the distance and you try to cycle quicker than them in order to give yourself a target. Anyone who has any visions of anything akin to an actual race is deluding themselves; that's why it's called 'silly'.

That guy was just riding like a twonk. I'm willing to bet that if there hadn't been another cyclist for 100 miles the accident still would have taken place.


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## Moodyman (24 May 2011)

Nice bike, shame about the cyclist


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## Rhythm Thief (24 May 2011)

Moodyman said:


> Nice bike, shame about the cyclist



Nah, it's knackered. Wants a new front wheel at least.


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## HLaB (24 May 2011)

Rhythm Thief said:


> Nah, it's knackered. Wants a new front wheel at least.


The brakes are good though


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## Norm (24 May 2011)

Might want a new saddle as well, or at least a thorough clean of the one which is on it.


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## slowmotion (24 May 2011)

Sorry, but what is this "SCR" of which you speak?


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## LosingFocus (24 May 2011)

slowmotion said:


> Sorry, but what is this "SCR" of which you speak?



I think its "Silly Commuter Racing". I had to Google it earlier too.


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## slowmotion (24 May 2011)

LosingFocus said:


> I think its "Silly Commuter Racing". I had to Google it earlier too.



Aha! Thanks LF.


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## Jezston (24 May 2011)

MacB said:


> It does make you think though, had it been a tragic outcome and had there been no video of the incident....what would people be saying?



There would have been witnesses stating some guy rode up between a moving bus and pickup truck. Details would have emerged that he was riding a brakeless fixie. Perhaps not immediately, but eventually the same conclusions would have been drawn I expect.


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## Tynan (24 May 2011)

is there anyone not blaming the cylclist, someone's been watching that London Calling vid too many time I suspect

what a bloody mong, I'd have said that about him cutting to the outside just prior too with no idea what was coming into that channel from either direction

see riders like that regular going at all sorts of speeds, he was just going quick enough to leave himself no margin of error at all


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## marinyork (24 May 2011)

Rhythm Thief said:


> I'm baffled as to why you think the pickup truck was positioned poorly. He was turning right, he'd positioned his vehicle in the right hand lane with the indicator on. What, incidentally, is the "problem _ahead" _that the pickup driver should be able to see? The only problem here comes charging in from behind, going for a gap which was too small to begin with and was only ever going to get smaller. I've explained why I think the bus was doing nothing wrong above, but I'd be interested to hear what this "virtual lane" is that you keep mentioning.
> As for the bit I've put in bold ... well, no it isn't. And the only person doing that here was the cyclist.



We have a classic junction with a pinch point so it's important to be as far over to the right as is possible, it's not a very hard concept to understand. There are junctions up and down the land like this. People get it slightly wrong all the time and a lot of the time it amounts to nothing. Other times there are a lot of near misses (see it often enough). The pick up truck should have been slightly further forward and definitely slightly further to the right. It's difficult to get right, we don't know why he was positioned like that. He did have his indicator on, unlike the bus, which is why I gave him 10% blame. He obviously wasn't overtaking anything or undertaking anything. It seems a fair assessment of the portion. 10% is not very responsible. 

The bus was both undertaking the taxi and cyclist who collided and trying to overtake other cyclists. I know why the bus driver did what he did, and he knew a cycle lane started on the other side of the junction and 2 standard lanes become one so he'd have to move further over to the right. It still counts as an overtaking manoeuvre and a change of course though and he is partially to blame. That he waited a few seconds and did it at low speed (sensible as a lot to take in at the junction) I have assigned 25% to the driver in contrast to the cyclist whose manoeuvre is technically nowhere near as bad as people are making out (was in lane going into the junction if you look carefully) was doing it at such a speed he had about 2s to assess whether some slightly daft bus driver pulling out rather shoddily in a junction was going to close in on the gap. If the cyclist had been where he was about the 12s mark for a few seconds, then obviously it would even more heavily be the bus driver's fault. I've given a bit of the benefit of the doubt to the bus driver as to his course and where the virtual lanes/lines would be.

You haven't explained why you think the bus did nothing wrong, you just said so by reference to the cyclist. Well yes that's fine, but I'm not very interested in trivial solutions, even more so when they are actively so disagreeing with someone else.



Rhythm Thief said:


> Petty jealousy about my not-very-secret mod status will get you nowhere.



It's not jealously (certainly not interested in being a moderator with the unpleasant cafe clique that runs this place), it's you being rumbled for your bad behaviour on a number of occasions. I know it's not secret, it's the way you flaunt it around, misbehave and then run for cover when your bad behaviour gets rumbled that irritates people. It's a double standard, as a moderator you should behave yourself and have posts of the highest intellectual standard and manners way above everyone else. It's normally in threads like this where you 'avoid conflict'. If you think I'm singling you out unfairly I've said exactly the same of TheDoctor and Td1nka when they've misbehaved and Arch and even User, it's you that tends to do it on commuting threads though (User used to be a naughty boy).

P.S. thank you for the strawman and colourful language.


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## dellzeqq (24 May 2011)

Tynan said:


> is there anyone not blaming the cylclist, someone's been watching that London Calling vid too many time I suspect
> 
> what a bloody mong, I'd have said that about him cutting to the outside just prior too with no idea what was coming into that channel from either direction
> 
> see riders like that regular going at all sorts of speeds, he was just going quick enough to leave himself no margin of error at all


and you've never done this? Never shot through between two buses as the light turned green? 

I recall getting a tow from a bus on Brixton Road and using the speed to attempt an undertake on the truck to my right. Then, all of a sudden, the bus driver stopped at a bus stop! WTF was the man on - didn't he realise that he was serving a Higher Purpose? Abort undertake, brake like crazy, big, big skid, hit back of bus, rotate forward and give myself a heck of a bang on my (helmeted) head. 

Now, all I'm saying is that I would rather have had that happen than not. I would rather have gone over the top of a cab travelling at right angles to me in Pimlico (the traffic light was out) than not. It's all part of that happy library of cycling memories, including sensational slaloming downhills, that will warm the cockles of my heart if I ever get to my old age. I might just miss out on the busted hip, but, then again, _I was racing a man half my age and winning.....

_Maybe, Tynan, you've never done this stuff and don't fancy giving it a try. Fair enough - you're a better, more sobersided man than I. But I don't intend changing........(other than when leading extremely respectable rides, of course)


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## Red Light (24 May 2011)

MacB said:


> It does make you think though, had it been a tragic outcome and had there been no video of the incident....what would people be saying?
> .



"A helmet would have saved his life" ?


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## Rhythm Thief (24 May 2011)

marinyork said:


> We have a classic junction with a pinch point so it's important to be as far over to the right as is possible, it's not a very hard concept to understand. There are junctions up and down the land like this. People get it slightly wrong all the time and a lot of the time it amounts to nothing. Other times there are a lot of near misses (see it often enough). The pick up truck should have been slightly further forward and definitely slightly further to the right. It's difficult to get right, we don't know why he was positioned like that. He did have his indicator on, unlike the bus, which is why I gave him 10% blame. He obviously wasn't overtaking anything or undertaking anything. It seems a fair assessment of the portion. 10% is not very responsible.



Well, it's more responsibility than I'd have allocated to him, given that he's innocently sitting there waiting to turn right when some twonk rides into his rear nearside. He's not positioned badly at all, he's just in the right turn lane. 



> The bus was both undertaking the taxi and cyclist who collided and trying to overtake other cyclists.



Now this I am baffled by. I suspect we might be watching different videos, to be honest. The only taxi I can see in that clip is immediately behind the bus; the only cyclist I can see near the bus is the one who tries his hardest to crawl under the rear wheel of it. Where is the taxi the bus is undertaking? and where are the cyclists that the bus is overtaking? You certainly can't see them on the video. 



> I know why the bus driver did what he did, and he knew a cycle lane started on the other side of the junction and 2 standard lanes become one so he'd have to move further over to the right. It still counts as an overtaking manoeuvre and a change of course though and he is partially to blame. That he waited a few seconds and did it at low speed (sensible as a lot to take in at the junction) I have assigned 25% to the driver



I know why the bus driver did what he did, too. It's because the lights changed, he did a quick mirror check and off he went. Straight on, so no indication necessary. He doesn't move over, he doesn't pull out to overtake anything and he doesn't undertake anyone. All that happens to make this different from thousands of similar manoevres carried out every day is the cyclist appears at warp factor 5 going for a gap which isn't there. 



> You haven't explained why you think the bus did nothing wrong, you just said so by reference to the cyclist. Well yes that's fine, but I'm not very interested in trivial solutions, even more so when they are actively so disagreeing with someone else.



I don't really understand this. The whole incident is caused by the cyclist (at least, without him there is no incident, just a bus pulling away from some traffic lights); with reference to what else would I be discussing it? What "trivial solutions" are you on about? Solutions to what? 




> ... it's you being rumbled for your bad behaviour on a number of occasions.



Only by you, though. No one else has ever said anything. 



> P.S. thank you for the strawman and colourful language.



Colourful language, yes (though I think you'll agree "cocksponge" is a masterly insult) but I'm struggling to see where I've made a strawman.


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## Tynan (24 May 2011)

dellzeqq said:


> and you've never done this? Never shot through between two buses as the light turned green?
> 
> I recall getting a tow from a bus on Brixton Road and using the speed to attempt an undertake on the truck to my right. Then, all of a sudden, the bus driver stopped at a bus stop! WTF was the man on - didn't he realise that he was serving a Higher Purpose? Abort undertake, brake like crazy, big, big skid, hit back of bus, rotate forward and give myself a heck of a bang on my (helmeted) head.
> 
> ...



Serious?

I've had a couple bad smashes from riding too fast to read the road ahead well enough, mostly when younger and foolisher, so these days I don't push my luck, I'd never ever have ridden into that 'gap' between those two vehicles, that was death with a billboard inviting someone in to die

I still like to go as fast as I can but not through spaces that I can't rely on to stay wide enough and not when I don't know what's going on at the other end of the space, ie peds stepping out or another vehicle pulling out in the certain knowledge that nothing can be coming

Anyone that wants to do that sort of thing is welcome too but it's still reckless and imho to do that in London rush hour traffic means they won;t still be riding after a few years


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## JonnyBlade (24 May 2011)

A need for patience will preserve life


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## dellzeqq (24 May 2011)

Tynan said:


> Serious?


not really


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## Norm (24 May 2011)

dellzeqq said:


> not really


That's a shame, I was going to use some of that, with minor amendments, in the firearms thread. 

The cyclist was 100% in the wrong, unlike Marinyork who is only 35% in the wrong.

IMO.


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## Borbus (24 May 2011)

I love how another cyclist goes through the gap afterwards...

I think we know what's going be at number 1 in the next episode of Silly Cyclists!


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## Adasta (24 May 2011)

The most chilling part of this video is the reaction from the pedestrian who thinks she has just witnessed somebody die.

Of all the things to be levelled at wreckless cyclists, I think the impact their wrecklessness wreaks on others is of paramount concern. Why should anyone have to stand at the side of the road and bear witness to something like that?


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## fossyant (24 May 2011)

Cyclist is a twit. Had he scratched my nice pick up I might have driven it over his head for being such a fool. Stupid cycling full stop - he was lucky not to be killed


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## Bman (24 May 2011)

I wouldnt "blame" anyone there except the cyclist, but the two other vehicles involved could have been positioned better, to allow other road users (cyclists mainly) to get past. 

The cyclist just did the foolish thing by going for the gap. He should have waited. The second cyclist to go through that gap probably saw the gap open up and saw the road ahead (of the bus and black truck) clear. Still, I wouldnt have done that!

Lucky, lucky man.


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## 400bhp (24 May 2011)

monkeypony said:


> Cyclist is a complete twat. Talk about asking for it!
> 
> If there was such a thing as a 'cycling license' he would deserve to _loose_ it for that.



And lose it too.


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## 400bhp (24 May 2011)

fossyant said:


> Cyclist is a twit. Had he scratched my nice pick up I might have driven it over his head for being such a fool. Stupid cycling full stop - he was lucky not to be killed



Absolutely.

See how he swerved earlier in the vid.

Nice to see the camera operator just ride off  London's great innit.


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## 400bhp (24 May 2011)

Adasta said:


> wreckless cyclists, I think the impact their wrecklessness



Bloody hell, is the W key stuck in the "on" position.


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## 400bhp (24 May 2011)

marinyork said:


> 25% bus driver, 10% pick up, 65% cyclist.



Ah, another Columbus on the site.


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## fossyant (24 May 2011)

400bhp said:


> Bloody hell, is the W key stuck in the "on" position.



Are you Jonathan WRoss ?


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## yello (24 May 2011)

How anyone can apportion blame to anyone other than the cyclist is beyond me. Whatever you may think of the positioning of the pick up and/or bus, it is a completely separate issue that the cyclist didn't need to involve himself in. The cyclist slowed, looked and decided to head for the smallest of gaps. Whether that gap should have been bigger,smaller, not there at all, whatever is beside the point. The cyclist needn't have involved himself in that equation at all. That he did is completely down to him imo.


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## ferret fur (24 May 2011)

Apart from the fact that the idea of virtual lane changing is complete tosh .. the bus does indeed go straight ahead. Look at the metal studs in the road. The bus follows a straight line past them. He starts off six studs from the left and the body of his vehicle never goes over them. The idea that he moves slightly right comes from the camera perspective. Even if he had moved _slightly_ right it is still 100% the tragic hipster's fault. There really are some idiots about . The internet is a depressing place at times.


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## betty swollocks (24 May 2011)

Anyone see it coming and can't watch?
What a tit.


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## nich (24 May 2011)

Eeek! Horrible. What a twit of a cyclist, he was probably buzzing on adrenaline and just went for it. 100% his fault.

He doesn't even shoulder check when he moves out from the bus-lane. Lucky he didn't get splatted by a motorcycle or fellow cyclist filtering before he did this stupid move.


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## joebingo (24 May 2011)

marinyork said:


> The bus was both undertaking the taxi and cyclist who collided and trying to overtake other cyclists.



What? The cyclist who collided was overtaking a bus who was overtaking a cyclist, if that was even the case, which it wasn't. You can't overtake someone on the inside if they're behind you, sheesh.


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## steve52 (24 May 2011)

cyclist no question, a lot of pepole semm to be asking what was he thinking ? ans = he wasent


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## Mr Celine (24 May 2011)

ferret fur said:


> Apart from the fact that the idea of virtual lane changing is complete tosh .. the bus does indeed go straight ahead. Look at the metal studs in the road. The bus follows a straight line past them. He starts off six studs from the left and the body of his vehicle never goes over them. The idea that he moves slightly right comes from the camera perspective. Even if he had moved _slightly_ right it is still 100% the tragic hipster's fault.



Also before the collision the rear of the bus can be seen moving parallel to, and within, the lane markings which end at the stop line.

The pick up is correctly positioned for turning right. It couldn't have got much further to the right without hitting the kerb of the traffic island. 
I can't see how anyone can blame anyone other than the cyclist.


I wonder how big the flat spot is on his back tyre.


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## Adasta (24 May 2011)

400bhp said:


> Bloody hell, is the W key stuck in the "on" position.



Come on 400bhp, don't be such a whiny little...


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## fossyant (24 May 2011)

I've freeze framed the vid...... 100% toss pot on the bike. Going for a gap that did not exist - road in front of bus is clear - so drive.... expect due care and attention of other road users...  not even James Bond could have slid his Aston in that gap.....  or even Danny McAskill ?

I too felt for the lady on the crossing..... oh my.... .. not nice.


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## Sheffield_Tiger (24 May 2011)

Regardless of how anyone puts percentages of blame...

That cyclist was one prize numpty

I hope he is okay, I'm not wishing harm, but here am I getting annoyed because I can't ride my bike thanks to someone pulling across in front of me in an unavoidable (for me) collision, whilst laddo probably just needs a new wheel and he can go on his merry (and hopefully more careful) way again


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## Shaun (25 May 2011)

... phew!!!

He was on a roll. Simple as that really. He didn't want to check his pace and very nearly paid with his life.

I was both surprised _and _relieved to see him walk away from it, and he'll likely have had more than a bent wheel to contend with (_it usually hurts like hell later in the day or the next day!!_) as I'm sure I saw his back wheel in the air at one point (_so him and his bike must have been in an odd position for a little while there_).

Hopefully his only major injury is to his pride (which is getting off lightly when you try to take a bus on and lose!).

Impatient commuter on two wheels this time, instead of four.

Glad he's okay though. Lucky beggar!!  

Cheers,
Shaun


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## slowmotion (25 May 2011)

I'm glad the hipster survived and I hope he has learned a valuable lesson. He was stupid. Never mind that.

What really made his riding unforgiveable is that there could have been two drivers, bus and pick-up, who spent the rest of their lives wondering if they had a hand in an idiot being killed. He was being shamefully selfish.


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## mumbo jumbo (25 May 2011)

I can't be reading 7 pages of this thread just now but, in answer to the OP, cyclist is 100% at fault here. Looks to me like he was trying to emulate that courier racing vid. Complete utter plonker.

mj


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## asterix (25 May 2011)

WRT the bus driver, you can't expect such drivers to be looking in the mirror at the exact time a cyclist going that fast might appear. The alleged cyclist in this case probably thought he was very clever and if that happens a lot in London then we know why cyclists are being given a bad name.


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## MacB (25 May 2011)

slowmotion said:


> *I'm glad the hipster survived* and I hope he has learned a valuable lesson. He was stupid. Never mind that.



ar you sure, I thought it was culling season?


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## Melonfish (25 May 2011)

again, 8 pages TLDR. BUT in response to OP 100% cyclists fault, he's just managed to avoid becoming a statistic.
then what got me mind was the other cyclist who went through that gap too. clearly there are more morons out there then first thought...


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## cd365 (25 May 2011)

100% the cyclists fault, how anyone can see it anyother way bemuses me. If he continues to ride like that he will end up dead with everyone blaming the moton


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## Bicycle (25 May 2011)

I have it as 100% down to the cyclist.

I was a motorcycle courier in London in the 80s and still ride a bicycle there.

I think I'm pretty nimble in traffic, but that chap seems to leave no margin at all.

When swinging out in front of the large white 'Newman' van he appears not to look.

He glances to the rear a couple of times as he approaches the van, but appears not to look again as he swings out.

There would have been no margin had anyone approached from either direction.

I'm not sure whether it's a fixed-gear (and he locks the rear before getting sandwiched) or a single-speed (and he's freewheeling while braking).

I suspect it's fixed-gear... Either way, it doesn't seem to have much in the way of brakes... 

London cycling (at speed) seems to me to be much like the riding in my courier days. A lot of it is about margins and options.

This chap seems to offer himself no margin and no options.

Scary, scary, scary... and near-miss versions of that video are a daily sight in the Smoke. 

Now, where did I put my pipe and my Daily Mail?


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## caesar (25 May 2011)

Just to point out that by the time the second bloke (blue top) went through the same gap, it was quite a bit wider - vehicles must have moved apart.


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## TwickenhamCyclist (25 May 2011)

caesar said:


> Just to point out that by the time the second bloke (blue top) went through the same gap, it was quite a bit wider - vehicles must have moved apart.



Maybe I’m just a big girl’s blouse, but unless I was absolutely certain it was one monumental traffic jam that wasn’t going anywhere for hours I would never position myself between a bus and a pickup, especially seeing as either could move at any moment – as for the gap being “quite a bit wider” – well compared to the first gap, even Victoria Beckham is quite a bit wider… still too risky for me


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## MrHappyCyclist (25 May 2011)

cd365 said:


> If he continues to ride like that he will end up dead with everyone blaming the moton


Or even the motorist!


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## caesar (25 May 2011)

TwickenhamCyclist said:


> Maybe I’m just a big girl’s blouse, but unless I was absolutely certain it was one monumental traffic jam that wasn’t going anywhere for hours I would never position myself between a bus and a pickup, especially seeing as either could move at any moment – as for the gap being “quite a bit wider” – well compared to the first gap, even Victoria Beckham is quite a bit wider… still too risky for me



Yes, I don't think I would have done it but its hard to say without seeing it from his point of view.


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## MrHappyCyclist (25 May 2011)

Tynan said:


> I've had a couple bad smashes from riding too fast to read the road ahead well enough


Now I'm really glad that my brakes are so much stronger than my legs! I knew there must a good reason for that.

I think the cameraman ought to have done a shoulder check when moving to the outside as well.


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## ferret fur (25 May 2011)

& of course both of them should not have passed so close to the white van before they move out. In point of fact the standard of their cycling is so crap the incident at the end has the air of inevitability about it.


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## marinyork (25 May 2011)

[QUOTE 1406399"]
I've just watched it a few times properly on the big screen. There was absolutely nothing wrong with the positioning of the two vehicles. If you look at the back of the bus at the end of the clip the left side is about 2 feet from the curb, only just out from when it started moving. The truck couldn't have been any further right (look it his line to where he was and he was close enough to the island) and was the right distance forwards to make the turn.

[/quote]

Yes, I have this funny magical power that you only seem to think you have too . There was certainly things wrong with the positioning of both vehicles. The pick up truck should have been up to about two foot further to the right at points, as I've said I put this down to a minor error. The bus similarly but much more importantly should have been further to the left by about eighteen inches. This is absolutely crucial and is why I have attributed some blame to the bus driver.

Other people are entitled to their opinions, but there's no point us arguing when some people are saying the bus driver is driving 'straight' and yet I can clearly see him veering to the right rather carelessly by quite a large margin. If people who disagree with me want a simple and easy to understand reason as to why the bus driver is partially responsible, it is this veering? Anyone not understand that?


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## ferret fur (25 May 2011)

Marin..look at the road, at the lane markings and the metal studs. The bus is moving straight. But, quite clearly, everyone but you is wrong

You need to realize that it is a wide angled lens on the camera. Therfore things at the side of the picture appear to move more inwards the closer they get to the centre of the frame. You might as well blame the bus driver for shortening his vehicle as he moves off. Its part of the same optical effect.


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## MrHappyCyclist (25 May 2011)

It looks to me as though the bus driver failed to indicate before setting off, but I really don't think that contributed to the incident.


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## mickle (25 May 2011)

Very serious error of judgement by the cyclist - he gets off lightly. 

I personally don't think comments suggesting he aught to be shot, chinned or 'made to wear his wheels around his nec' are necessary or appropriate.

Interestingly that is the exact spot where twenty or so years ago I ripped off a driver's radio aerial and whipped her car with it in response to a punishment pass.


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## marinyork (25 May 2011)

ferret fur said:


> Marin..look at the road, at the lane markings and the metal studs. The bus is moving straight. But, quite clearly, everyone but you is wrong
> 
> You need to realize that it is a wide angled lens on the camera. Therfore things at the side of the picture appear to move more inwards the closer they get to the centre of the frame. You might as well blame the bus driver for shortening his vehicle as he moves off. Its part of the same optical effect.



As I sadly seem to be saying more and more often on here as posters get more and more arrogant and assume everyone else is an idiot:-

trivially.


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## marinyork (25 May 2011)

[QUOTE 1406420"]

What you seem to not understand is that, fundamentally, no-one had any influence on the riders actions. He, and only he, chose to try to make a gap that it was clear that he couldn't. And because of that he is solely to blame.
[/quote]

I do understand this, it is just a some might say moronically simple view on things lacking in thought. That's fine for a bit of banter, that's fine trying to be funny (if it is) and even for someone posting an 'oh gosh' and sympathy post. It's not fine for assessing an accident.


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## mumbo jumbo (25 May 2011)

I hope this makes it into the next edition of Silly Cyclists ("silly" just isn't the word for this one, as I think most of us agree!)


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## asterix (25 May 2011)

The cyclist was heading for a narrowing gap, he could have braked but decided to go for it.

It was, to quote the video, 'really stupid' riding. 

(I think marinyork just likes arguing. End of.)


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## marinyork (25 May 2011)

[QUOTE 1406425"]
That's twice now you've interpreted something you didn't like as being 'funny'. Odd. As odd as interpreting the correct view as moronic.[/quote]

No, I did not say I regarded post 122 as funny, that is simply factually incorrect and in your imagination. I was talking in general terms about this thread and even others of a similar nature in commuting.

[QUOTE 1406425"]It's a simple view, yes. And the right one. You came up with your percentages based on a scenario that doesn't exist. The bus isn't veering anywhere, the truck couldn't physically have positioned himself any further to the right, and there's apparently a taxi somewhere which the bus is trying to overtake.

It is simple. The cyclist made several mistakes when he decided to make for the gap. The truck and the bus are in acceptable positions.

[/quote]

It's not that simple. I do no see why people try to shy away from things and simplify things. If people want an 'oh gosh' thread that is fine, but they should really say so. 

The bus was not actually going completely straight, it's not by what some would regard as a very big amount, but as I've tried to make clear with a pick up truck slightly blocking a large and slightly wide vehicle from getting past (still much less the pick up fault's than the buses), what do you do in such a situation? Answers on a post card.


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## Jezston (25 May 2011)

I'm not wanting to appeal to any clique here or whatnot, but honestly I cannot fathom where Marinyork is coming from here. Bus overtaking taxi? Undertaking the truck? Truck not further right? I really honestly don't see what he's getting at.


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## asterix (25 May 2011)

Looking further along the video, there is a cycle lane the other side of the junction.

Now if I was driving a bus, it's clear that I am going to have to move over a bit to avoid driving in it. 

I think it is obvious that is what the driver was doing. In other words he wasn't changing lane or pulling away from the kerb but moving over to allow space for cyclists. In which case he should not indicate.

What's more, he is actually giving room to cyclists on his left and probably that is where he expects cyclists to appear. 

The bus driver is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.


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## Asprilla (25 May 2011)

I don't see how it matters that the bus was going straight or not. He was within his lane and he's entitled to use all of the lane. He was already moving when the cyclist swooped in from the left and he doesn't have to leave a gap for filtering. I doubt he was aware of the cyclist until the sound of impact. Even if he was aware he had no reason to expect the cyclist to go for the (lack of) gap.

The car turning right was positioned within his lane for turning right. That is all that his demanded of him (he wasn't blocking any other lanes) and he did it.

The bus driver and pick-up driver did absolutely nothing wrong.


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## marinyork (25 May 2011)

asterix said:


> (I think marinyork just likes arguing. End of.)



I read the hierarchical set of some several hundred ideas otherwise known as the highway code and in a few hundred very predictable scenarios on the road and say my views from them when assigning blame. Other people's responses are very predictable I know what many of them are going to say, why would I wish to argue in that scenario (it isn't like I get much out of it)? It is merely encouraing people to think. I don't see how repeating oh goshes really helps in a discussion, but they are free to if they wish - I'm not particularly going to wish some ill will on someone like some on here might. If anyone reads many of my posts they'll know I'm not very good at this sort of behaviour of piling in some light sentiment in a thread, why I keep away from the cafe as much as possible (and here to an extent). 

When discussing road accidents my views are fairly consistent on manoeuvres, lanes, marking and discipline, I will tend to judge things in a more harsh way for people that don't follow it than other people on this forum does so for example I was much less sympathetic to the orthodox view of a very heated debate on here that got locked about a cyclist being killed (again a very unpopular view).

I think I will probably leave it there. I doubt the life expectancy of the cyclist is that long and if such a future scenario happened I expect that without video evidence as in this case tending to apportion some blame towards other parties in my view, would conclude that it was 100% the cyclists fault.


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## Asprilla (25 May 2011)

Can you tell us which points of the HC were broken by the bus driver and the pick-up driver?


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## Midnight (25 May 2011)

asterix said:


> Looking further along the video, there is a cycle lane the other side of the junction.
> 
> Now if I was driving a bus, it's clear that I am going to have to move over a bit to avoid driving in it.
> 
> ...



Just what I was thinking. He's just left a bus lane, but there's no bus lane ahead so he's manoeuvring clear of the cycle lane ahead.

Let's not forget that from this perspective, none of us can see what the bus driver and pick-up driver sees, and it'd be easy to make the wrong assumption about their road positions. I've watched the video over and over, and IMO the cyclist was careless and wholly responsible. It was an error of judgement, and I get the impression the cyclist realised his mistake and was trying to brake, but far too late to be able to stop.

On balance, how many of us have never made a silly mistake on a bike, on the road? Cyclists or motorists, we're all human (though I often have my doubts about the latter)


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## Dan B (25 May 2011)

[QUOTE 1406423"]
Should he have indicated?
[/quote]
I can't say from the video with any certainty whether he was going in a straight line or not. But: if he was pulling out to avoid the cycle lane that starts just the other side of the junction, then yes he should have indicated. If he wasn't trying to avoid the cycle lane that starts just the other side of the junction, then why wasn't he?

Either way, though, it's a side-issue. It's hardly a grievous sin, and we can only speculate as to whether the cyclist would even have seen the indicator or done anything differently if he had. I agree with the majority view that the cyclist was to blame here


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## LosingFocus (25 May 2011)

Google Maps Street View shows the route the bus took to be straight.


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## Dan B (25 May 2011)

Wow, there was a street view car present? I didn't see that in the video


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## MrHappyCyclist (25 May 2011)

[QUOTE 1406423"]
Should he have indicated?
[/quote]

Actually, no. I thought he had set off from a bus stop, but I see he didn't. The bus driver did nothing wrong.


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## Asprilla (25 May 2011)

Dan B said:


> I can't say from the video with any certainty whether he was going in a straight line or not. But: if he was pulling out to avoid the cycle lane that starts just the other side of the junction, then yes he should have indicated. If he wasn't trying to avoid the cycle lane that starts just the other side of the junction, then why wasn't he?



I've just had a quick search of the HC and since he was staying in lane I can't find any instruction that he should have indicated.

As has been mentioned, if he was joining traffic from parked / stopped then, yes he should have, but he was in lane so there was no need to indicate.


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## LosingFocus (25 May 2011)

Dan B said:


> Wow, there was a street view car present? I didn't see that in the video



Fnarp.


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## Dan B (25 May 2011)

Asprilla said:


> I've just had a quick search of the HC and since he was staying in lane I can't find any instruction that he should have indicated.
> 
> As has been mentioned, if he was joining traffic from parked / stopped then, yes he should have, but he was in lane so there was no need to indicate.



This really is a side-issue, but I would suggest that if he is changing course/direction, then "use them to advise other road users before changing course or direction, stopping or moving off" (rule 103) pretty much covers it. You could argue that he was staying in lane, but given that (1) he's going straight on in what is actually a left-turn-only lane[*], (2) the lane itself moves rightwards to accommodate a left-hand cycle lane, it would have been polite for him to have done so.


[*&] albeit one which, if you know the area, approximately everyone ignores the road markings and treats as a going-straight-on lane


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## RedRider (25 May 2011)

1. You live (if you're lucky) and learn. Fairly sure I've never done anything so brainless on my bike, certainly never been scraped like that, but I'm a lot more aware having seen and had a couple of near misses in more reckless times. 

2. Don't think the bus driver did anything wrong but I bet they're shaken enough to check, check and check their mirrors again in future. At least for the next week. On that level, does idiotic cycling make things safer for the rest of us?

3. Sickening moment when the first cyclist disappears from view but I'm reserving my biggest headshake for the one in blue. When I first moved to London I quickly ditched the tube for my bike 'cos (among other things) I didn't like the way the rush hour underground changed people into anti-social, impatient loons. Sad to say the affect persists in rush hour cyclists.


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## marinyork (25 May 2011)

Dan B said:


> This really is a side-issue, but I would suggest that if he is changing course/direction, then "use them to advise other road users before changing course or direction, stopping or moving off" (rule 103) pretty much covers it. You could argue that he was staying in lane, but given that (1) he's going straight on in what is actually a left-turn-only lane[*], (2) the lane itself moves rightwards to accommodate a left-hand cycle lane, it would have been polite for him to have done so.



Yes, which I've said people will interpret in different ways. Why people other than yourself seem to be going over the same ground as it is new is beyond me. Nor did I say the lack of indication was the most important factor, I mentioned it.


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## Dan B (25 May 2011)

RedRider said:


> 2. Don't think the bus driver did anything wrong but I bet they're shaken enough to check, check and check their mirrors again in future. At least for the next week. On that level, does idiotic cycling make things safer for the rest of us?


I ride (and skate) along that road regularly, and I have to say most bus drivers on that route are already very good about checking their mirrors. More than once I've stopped behind a bus driver in what I subsequently realised was his blind spot and the bus driver has then remained stationary when the lights go green because he doesn't know I didn't ride up along his nearside.


It's a major cycle-commuter route (further into town it becomes Clerkenwell Road and then Theobalds Road) and I'd expect that every bus driver who drives that road regularly is well acquainted with the full range of cyclists - idiot and otherwise.


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## marinyork (25 May 2011)

[QUOTE 1406433"]
And now you're backtracking. Earlier you claimed that it was veering. Now you're saying the same as everyone else.[/quote] I said by what some would regard is. As a few people on here have said they can't decide whether it is going straight or not or is small in their view as to dismiss it. Easy enough to understand? If I was backtracking I would have said the bus was going bang on straight like others have. I've given the bus driver the benefit of the doubt, but he isn't going bang on straight in my view. As I said if people want the simple and light view, this is why I've attributed a small amount of blame to the bus driver. If you want to think about it a bit more you can see asterix and Dan B's posts which I think sum things up reasonably well from other people. 

[QUOTE 1406433"]What would I do? What anyone with basic road sense would do. I'd hang back and not try a dangerous overtake in the middle of a junction and through a gap that isn't wide enough. 

What would you do? Die and then blame someone else?
[/quote]

I was talking about the bus driver. Nowhere in that paragraph did it mention the cyclist. Any normal person who can read would regard that as talking about the bus driver. I am very sorry you are unable to understand this and choose to attack my character implying that I would cycle in the manner of the hipster.

Apart from not even being able to cycle that fast I would only do any sort of filtering manoeuvre whatsoever of any kind on a junction I was extremely familiar with on a daily basis. It really isn't for me to say in general terms how people ride. If someone was crazy enough to ask for advice off me about that junction I would say stay bang on in primary behind the bus and other vehicles in the left hand lane and wait till the bus had cleared at least half of the junction and was accelerating away at a fair old speed before switching to a strong position towards the cycle lane, bearing in mind that someone will probably undertake you anyway on a bike, so don't do it too suddenly.

There are plenty of bad things and I've always viewed it as 'I'd really rather you didn't' than prescriptive ten commandment stuff. If someone comes a cropper then it certainly has nothing to do with me.


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## thomas (25 May 2011)

lit said:


> I love how some drivers start beeping despite someone possibly suffering serious injury or worse, cyclists fault though for riding like a idiot.



I think the beeps were people just trying to make sure that the driver(s) had realised and did not move/crush the guy.

Could be wrong, but if I were behind I'd probably hoot/do something to make sure that the guy didn't come of any worst.

Oh well. Teach the guy to eat that big curry the night before and think he can still fit through those tight gaps


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## RedRider (25 May 2011)

Dan B said:


> It's a major cycle-commuter route (further into town it becomes Clerkenwell Road and then Theobalds Road) and I'd expect that every bus driver who drives that road regularly is well acquainted with the full range of cyclists - idiot and otherwise.



I expect you're right. But speaking of Theobald's Rd and idiotic cyclists...one time in those glorious days before he became mayor, Boris Johnson jumped a red light on it and had it not been for some sharp breaking on my part would've bumped right into me as I crossed from Red Lion St.


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## Bimble (25 May 2011)

marinyork said:


> Yes, which I've said people will interpret in different ways. Why people other than yourself seem to be going over the same ground as it is new is beyond me. Nor did I say the lack of indication was the most important factor, I mentioned it.



In all seriousness do you think anyone _other than_ the cyclist is to blame?

If so, what is your reasoning. I'm genuinely interested.

Here's what I see (and I presume most others do as well): 
the bus is on the inside lane moving forward in the line of traffic it is _already established in_ - going with the flow of traffic and moving along in an expected way with the rest of the traffic, and not wildly or unexpectedly veering off in any particular direction
the truck at the head of the outside lane of traffic, stationary and indicating it's intention to turn right
the cyclist overtaking on the *outside* of the outer lane (where the traffic is stopped waiting behind the turning truck) at a greater speed than the rest of the traffic in the scenario, and in a position where the bus driver would have (I assume again) difficulty seeing him approaching (or at least reacting to him "going for the gap").
The truck driver is stopped. He's indicating, and is in a reasonable and expected position to perform the manouver.

The bus driver is proceeding in a straight, low speed, and expected way, with the truck stopped and so a "clear" right side.

The cyclist is moving at greater speed than those around him, is crossing lanes, and is swerving around the back of the truck and in front of the bus (or not, in this case).

Unfortunately the cyclist mis-times his approach, does not slow down to make an assessment of the situation and ends up in between the two vehicles.

I'm curious how it could be interpreted in a different way, but if you have experience in accident assessment and feel it is not so, "black and white" then I'd be interested to hear what you have to say.

Is it more of a technical/phrasing sort of thing, or are you thinking that the vehicles were party to the cause of the accident?

Sorry if you have laready covered this.


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## Bimble (25 May 2011)

Sorry I spent so long typing I think you covered this.


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## Tommi (25 May 2011)

Dan B said:


> (1) he's going straight on in what is actually a left-turn-only lane[*]
> 
> [*&] albeit one which, if you know the area, approximately everyone ignores the road markings and treats as a going-straight-on lane


Apparently the lane markings are only advisory. At least that's what RoadsafeLondon replied when I complained about a car on left/straight-only lane making a right turn across straight/right-only lane, uncomfortably near traffic going straight IMO.


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## fossyant (25 May 2011)

Blah blah. Cyclist was an idiot. Simples.


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## joebingo (25 May 2011)

marinyork said:


> As I sadly seem to be saying more and more often on here as posters get more and more arrogant and assume everyone else is an idiot:-
> 
> trivially.



I'm sorry Marin, but you're the only person in this thread who's doing this.

A lot of the time, we complain about drivers who make the choice to overtake us too closely. Fact is, in most cases, we could move further over to the left when we see it about to happen and it wouldn't be a problem. If I were to go into one of those threads and say "Nah, you're 35% to blame for this incident", I would be (rightfully) battered down by every following post.

There are times when apportioning blame in RTCs is appropriate, this is not one of them. Everyone in the video, apart from the cyclist was acting within the law and the highway code. The person who is making an overtake, is always 100% responsible for whether or not it is safe to overtake at any given time. This cyclist got it wrong.


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## Little yellow Brompton (25 May 2011)

Sh4rkyBloke said:


> Just seen this posted over on Bike Radar.... words fail me. I'd be interested in seeing how different people dissect it to apportion blame for what happens.
> 
> Video is here





97% the cyclist for being a twat. 2% the bus driver, moving when another road use was there ( wasn't he looking in his mirror going through such a small gap?), 1% the pickup driver, moving for no real reason, with nowhere to go and closing the gap.


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## Brahan (25 May 2011)

The small gap was there before the cyclist. Irrespective of what caused it, it was there before the rider arrived. The cyclist should be prepared to navigate safely around any potential obstacles (if that's how you want to classify this scene) but he wasn't. What a tosser. A very luck tosser but a tosser none the less.

<div><br></div><div>EDIT: 100% rider's fault.</div>


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## dand_uk (25 May 2011)

100% idiotic cyclist fault


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## Guvnor (25 May 2011)

marinyork said:


> 25% bus driver, 10% pick up, 65% cyclist. I apportioned the blame to the cyclist mostly on the ridiculous speed he does it at on top of committing identical stupidities that the bus driver does. I'm not a fan of people making up absurd excuses like "I only had 8 seconds to see him guv" as often blights these sort of things, but in this case you can see there was a 2 second window for both cyclist and bus driver to react and it was too late for the cyclist, and the bus driver probably couldn't even see him until even less than that.



Are we watching the same video? the only person at fault is the muppet on the bike. Neither the bus driver or the truck do anything wrong at all. Theres always one that thinks the sun shines out of a cyclists arse no mater how bad they ride.....


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## Maz (25 May 2011)

Alien8 said:


> I blame the women on the mobile just about to cross the road - she clearly distracted him.


+1
He was her flatmate.


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## davefb (25 May 2011)

Little yellow Brompton said:


> 97% the cyclist for being a twat. 2% the bus driver, moving when another road use was there ( wasn't he looking in his mirror going through such a small gap?), 1% the pickup driver, moving for no real reason, with nowhere to go and closing the gap.



that makes no sense, there isnt a gap , there never will be one, one bloke has positioned himself to turn right, correctly

a bus is crossing a junction..

for some insane reason the cyclist wants to just swing through everyone... 

i cant understand why anyone would think you would be looking behind in case a total baffoon would try that move? 'sorry mate for running you over, but i drove onto the pavement because a cyclist was going at 20mph for a tiny gap that wasnt there' .

lets face it , the cyclist wasnt looking in case a numbskull in a lambo was driving at 90 on the wrong side of the road...


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## davefb (25 May 2011)

Maz said:


> +1
> He was her flatmate.










[glad hes okay though!]


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## Mr Celine (25 May 2011)

marinyork said:


> the bus driver gets some of the blame because he executed a very poor manoeuvre moving over into the virtual other lane





marinyork said:


> I read the hierarchical set of some several hundred ideas otherwise known as the highway code....



Which rule covers 'virtual lanes'? Do real vehicles have to keep within them or only virtual vehicles?

Just curious.


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## Wankelschrauben (25 May 2011)

I laughed and found the video rather comical.


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## ferret fur (25 May 2011)

> I am here.


Well, clearly you are here. If you weren't here then you couldn't be typing anything.

A poor joke I know, but I feel that you are at least 26% responsible for it.


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## Shaun (25 May 2011)

An interesting thread, but one that I feel is probably best drawn to a close now.

Thanks,
Shaun


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