# Am I a bad bad person?



## Blue Hills (30 Apr 2021)

Confession

Being a firm believer in keeping cycling stuff simple

I sometimes click "follow" on threads about problems/issues/puzzles to do with more "advanced" bits.


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## Lovacott (30 Apr 2021)

Blue Hills said:


> Confession
> 
> Being a firm believer in keeping cycling stuff simple
> 
> I sometimes click "follow" on threads about problems/issues/puzzles to do with more "advanced" bits.


I do the same. It's mainly so that I can feel a bit smug about the fact that my spare parts don't cost three figures.


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## Blue Hills (30 Apr 2021)

Lovacott said:


> I do the same. It's mainly so that I can feel a bit smug about the fact that my spare parts don't cost three figures.


good to see that I won't be damned alone.
Yep, I must admit to a warm glow at times to do with issues on:
strange noises
supply issues, even in normal times, of parts and their components
fraught compatibility issues
stuff being discontinued no time after introduced
other stuff


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## biggs682 (30 Apr 2021)

@Blue Hills i am with you all the way and i think that's what makes our cycling so enjoyable


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## Drago (30 Apr 2021)

Im all for keeping it fairly simple. I draw the line at anything that needs software, or clever engineering solutions to problems that didn't exist until someone created the problem in the first place.


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## Venod (30 Apr 2021)

Lovacott said:


> I do the same. It's mainly so that I can feel a bit smug about the fact that my spare parts don't cost three figures.



I would have been with you on this, all my working life I have never been extravagant on my cycling spending, I never bought top end of anything, but strangely since retiring, I am spending more than ever on cycling , I think its the realisation that I am not here forever and money is for spending even though I have less spare.


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## Drago (30 Apr 2021)

No pockets in a shroud.


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## Ming the Merciless (30 Apr 2021)

I don’t own a supercomputer


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## Lozz360 (30 Apr 2021)

Venod said:


> I would have been with you on this, all my working life I have never been extravagant on my cycling spending, I never bought top end of anything, but strangely since retiring, I am spending more than ever on cycling , I think its the realisation that I am not here forever and money is for spending even though I have less spare.


It’s not strange at all. All the time we are working we are encouraged to save money for the future. Therefore, we feel guilty about treating ourselves. When we eventually retire we get to spend the money we have been saving. The future is finally here! Many people find it difficult to change the mentality of switching from saver to spender once retired. Sounds like you have it sussed instinctively.


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## raleighnut (30 Apr 2021)

Yep save for when you're old so the government can claw it back, I for one expect this to change shortly in order to 'kickstart'the economy


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## Cycleops (30 Apr 2021)

I’m a believer in the KISS maxim so I have to admit to feeling a warm glow of satisfaction reading another thread about why my Di2 is playing up again.


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## Juan Kog (30 Apr 2021)

Blue Hills said:


> Confession
> 
> Being a firm believer in keeping cycling stuff simple
> 
> I sometimes click "follow" on threads about problems/issues/puzzles to do with more "advanced" bits.


Sorry Blue Hills you are a very bad cyclist. You should take out a subscription to Cycling Plus immediately, so you can keep up with latest Advances in cycling technology.


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## Blue Hills (30 Apr 2021)

Just to clarify, in case some of the usual folks turn up, though I share @Lovacott 's pleasure at not having to spend a bundle on bits, this isn't really about money - just sheer simplicity, not having to frett about stuff that i feel I don't need for cycling pleasure, less time trawling the web for solutions and buying options and just riding sweetly running bikes I can easily fix.


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## Venod (30 Apr 2021)

Cycleops said:


> I have to admit to feeling a warm glow of satisfaction reading another thread about why my Di2 is playing up again.



Now this is a bit of topic, I have nothing against Di2 and if you want one why not, but I have considered it on several occasions and can't see any benefits for my use, I have spent a lifetime repairing mechanical things and a well maintained normal gear system just works, with no battery, remembering to charge etc involved, Di2 you press a button it changes gear, I move a lever it changes gear.

Another off topic bit, car electrical fuel injection is obviously universal nowadays, but the mechanical injection system on my lads early 1980s Sirocco was a match for any modern system, and a interesting thing to work on.


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## Blue Hills (30 Apr 2021)

Juan Kog said:


> Sorry Blue Hills you are a very bad cyclist. You should take out a subscription to Cycling Plus immediately, so you can keep up with latest Advances in cycling technology.


when i got into cycling I subscribed for several years - used to really look forward to it dropping through the letter box and as a self employed consultant would quite often sit down to hungrily devour it when I should have been working - I still have the bound copies - but gave up after it became focussed on the latest wonder machine/device I was supposed to be buying. It used to be a very broadly based mag. For cyclists.


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## Milkfloat (30 Apr 2021)

Ever thought that you lot are just bunch of moaning old men stuck in the past?  You will be complaining about that new fangled pop music next.


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## Blue Hills (30 Apr 2021)

Milkfloat said:


> Ever thought that you lot are just bunch of moaning old men stuck in the past?  You will be complaining about that new fangled pop music next.


who's moaning?
anything but.


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## Paulus (30 Apr 2021)

Blue Hills said:


> when i got into cycling I subscribed for several years - used to really look forward to it dropping through the letter box and as a self employed consultant would quite often sit down to hungrily devour it when I should have been working - I still have the bound copies - but gave up after it became focussed on the latest wonder machine/device I was supposed to be buying. It used to be a very broadly based mag. For cyclists.


Same here, I subscribed for over 15 years until I realised that it had left me behind in the latest technology and what to buy stakes.


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## roley poley (30 Apr 2021)

keeping it simple works for me ,any new starter is dazzled by technoporn when all they need is simple utility


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## BalkanExpress (30 Apr 2021)

But one person's simple is another's complicated.

I would fully agree with @Drago on staying clear of electronics (except lights) but my lack of mechanical skills means that I even consider bar tape as a clever engineering solution: as a consequence so I have to "complicated" on a regular basis


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## weareHKR (30 Apr 2021)

Must admit, at some point, I would like to try disc brakes, but disc brakes on a bicycle.... why?
Fair enough the old canties can be a tad hit & miss but V brakes are very capable.... even when wet!


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## a.twiddler (30 Apr 2021)

I concur with what @Bluehills said. I sometimes follow threads about stuff I've never heard of having problems I wouldn't have a clue how to fix and wonder what was the issue it was designed to solve in the first place? Every product has to have its test pilot to take the financial hit until it's refined and becomes mainstream or falls by the wayside. Someone had to try disc brakes when they first came out, LED lights, tubeless tyres etc and they are mainstream now. Then old farts like me get to enjoy the benefits (well, not been motivated to try tubeless yet). 

But on the whole, I must be a bad bad person because I too like to keep it simple without too much complication, or involvement of electronics. I must be a bit Old Skool in that way. I always think, "could I fix it at the roadside, or at least bodge it so I could get home?" Maybe I'm even a Badass, if only a tiny bit.


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## Blue Hills (30 Apr 2021)

weareHKR said:


> Must admit, at some point, I would like to try disc brakes, but disc brakes on a bicycle.... why?
> Fair enough the old canties can be a tad hit & miss but V brakes are very capable.... even when wet!


I find v brakes a wonder, even tho i was a bit slow to really appreciate them. Can be fitted from scratch pretty easily even by the likes of me, cheap, simple quality - all of shimanos various V brake bits whatever the branding are good quality, spares of everything including generic easily available, have often seen in foreign supermarkets. Billions must have been made. Even if global production stopped this teatime there would be no problem getting bits for decades.


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## HMS_Dave (30 Apr 2021)

I have great interest in technology and my job is quite "techy" but i have no interest in turning my bike into a data mining machine. Not against people that do either. I just like to view my cycling as a disconnect from it all.


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## DCBassman (30 Apr 2021)

Then I'm bad, bad too. Simple always better, wherever possible. I even keep pondering going down to just one simple bike...


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## Arrowfoot (30 Apr 2021)

In the world of cycling, there are 3 brands that can stand up and be proud of themselves. Shimano, Campagnolo and Sram. This is pure engineering. If something goes wrong, you can tell straight away.

The frame markers however are heavy into hype and marketing and leading the charge are 3 well known North American Brands. Helping them are cycle media running magic carpet reviews. As of late the proliferation of irrelevant R&D data is not only in the official product brochures and websites but also in the cycling media. One American brand was plagued with creaky bottom bracket for years but the favourable reviews continued.

For ride comfort, it's the wheels, tires, saddle, bike fit and geometry first and foremost. And geometry is pretty much identical for all bikes for the same use ie road, mountain etc

Aeronautics is one particular favourite area of the hype. The main areas of drag are rider's weight, rider's posture, the front wheels and the helmet. The frame comes a distinct 5th. The frame will make a difference for top end TT guys but not for 99.9% of us.

Yes, keep it simple as it cover 95% of your biking needs.


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## fossyant (30 Apr 2021)

Luddites the lot of you !


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## simongt (30 Apr 2021)

We subscribed to Cyling + for several years, but when it was obviously geared up for roadies and their passion for fancy clobber, we stopped. There was a really good mag in the late '90's; 'On Your Bike' for a while which concentrated on general cycling and was very good. Trouble was it didn't sell enough, was taked over by some MTB nuts and then disappeaed without trace.


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## Lovacott (30 Apr 2021)

Venod said:


> Now this is a bit of topic, I have nothing against Di2 and if you want one why not.


Call me old fashioned, but I've always seen the bike as being a purely mechanical way of getting from A to B and the introduction of electronics seems a move away from that?


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## Lovacott (30 Apr 2021)

Milkfloat said:


> Ever thought that you lot are just bunch of moaning old men stuck in the past?  You will be complaining about that new fangled pop music next.


I listen to modern music I'll have you know. That Fleetwood Mac lot are pretty good.


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## a.twiddler (30 Apr 2021)

Blue Hills said:


> I find v brakes a wonder, even tho i was a bit slow to really appreciate them. Can be fitted from scratch pretty easily even by the likes of me, cheap, simple quality - all of shimanos various bits whatever the branding are good quality, spares of everything including generic easily available, have often seen in foreign supermarkets. Billions must have been made. Even if global production stopped this teatime there would be no problem getting bits for decades.


Even the cheapest no name V brakes seem to work well. Probably the biggest unrecognised improvement in bike brakes of the last few decades. The drawback being, that as fitted usually to MTBs the extra power helps to grind the environment into the rims, which doesn't help with rim longevity. Hence the move to discs on anything but a basic model nowadays. On a general purpose hybrid or round town type MTB, not such a problem, and a good brake.


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## swee'pea99 (30 Apr 2021)

Venod said:


> I have nothing against Di2 and if you want one why not


Why not? Ask the bloke I saw at the start of the etape in (literally) tears of anguish, having brought his bike all the way from Canada only to have the gears have a hissy fit which no-one at the helpful mech tents could figure out...


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## weareHKR (30 Apr 2021)

a.twiddler said:


> Even the cheapest no name V brakes seem to work well. Probably the biggest unrecognised improvement in bike brakes of the last few decades. The drawback being, that as fitted usually to MTBs the extra power helps to grind the environment into the rims, which doesn't help with rim longevity. Hence the move to discs on anything but a basic model nowadays. On a general purpose hybrid or round town type MTB, not such a problem, and a good brake.


Yeah, good info ... 👍


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## Drago (30 Apr 2021)

Milkfloat said:


> Ever thought that you lot are just bunch of moaning old men stuck in the past?


Ah, but we're moaning old men who get where we are going, even when the shops are shut, pandemic supplies are tight, batteries are flat, and electronics aren't behaving.


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## Teamfixed (30 Apr 2021)

Some of my bikes have a clicky thing that means you can stop pedalling down hill.
Can't see THAT catching on???


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## TheDoctor (30 Apr 2021)

The next bike I build up will probably have downtube levers. I've given up on more than 9 gears too.


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## Venod (30 Apr 2021)

TheDoctor said:


> The next bike I build up will probably have downtube levers.



Now that is one thing I don't miss, brifters are one of the better cycling improvements.


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## Teamfixed (30 Apr 2021)

These are indexed!!! Whatever next?


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## Drago (30 Apr 2021)

I think what some folk are trying to say is refinement and improvement is good, complication in the pursuit of those ends is not.


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## Juan Kog (30 Apr 2021)

Teamfixed said:


> These are indexed!!! Whatever next?
> View attachment 586511


You have a bike fitted with one if those new fangled derailing devices .


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## ColinJ (30 Apr 2021)

weareHKR said:


> Must admit, at some point, I would like to try disc brakes, but disc brakes on a bicycle.... why?
> Fair enough the old canties can be a tad hit & miss but V brakes are very capable.... even when wet!


Well... 



a.twiddler said:


> The drawback being, that as fitted usually to MTBs the extra power helps to grind the environment into the rims, which doesn't help with rim longevity.


Indeed! 



ColinJ said:


> Do you do many long, wet, muddy rides on those wheels? I found on some of the killers round here that I could wear brake blocks out in a few such rides and the worn blocks had slithers of alloy in them so the rims were also taking a battering. I wore one pair of blocks through mid-descent, but it was too dangerous to stop braking. By the time I got to the bottom, my wheel rim had been destroyed!


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## Drago (30 Apr 2021)

But then im heavier than just about anyone else hereabouts and ive never work out a rim. Too many people dont know how to ride and comfort brake everywhere, same as they do in the car.


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## ColinJ (30 Apr 2021)

Drago said:


> Too many people dont know how to ride and comfort brake everywhere, same as they do in the car.


Long, steep offroad descent, ruts, boulders, gravel, bends, huge near-vertical drop off to one side into a river... I chose to comfort brake and _*LIVE*_!


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## Venod (30 Apr 2021)

ColinJ said:


> Long, steep offroad descent, ruts, boulders, gravel, bends, huge near-vertical drop off to one side into a river... I chose to comfort brake and _*LIVE*_!



Giant had a closed hydraulic system at one time, if you was on the brakes for a long descent in warm weather the would stay on giving you an automatic comfort brake, the first time it happened I was struggling to pedal on a steep descent.


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## ColinJ (30 Apr 2021)

Venod said:


> Giant had a closed hydraulic system at one time, if you was on the brakes for a long descent in warm weather the would stay on giving you an automatic comfort brake, the first time it happened I was struggling to pedal on a steep descent.


The Hope C2s on my MTB did that. There were rotary thumb dials that could be used to compensate but that could lead to a potentially lethal mistake...

Scary descent #1, heavy 'comfort' braking, brake fluid heating up, use thumb dials to back off the brakes, more braking, more heating, more backing off...

Reach valley floor, steep climb to next summit. Fluid cools on climb. *THIS IS WHERE I FORGOT TO COMPENSATE IN THE OTHER DIRECTION*...

Scary descent #2, dive down precipitous slope, brake-brake-brake, I said BRAKE-BRAKE-BRAKE, _*WTF - BRAKE-BRAKE-BRAKE!!!!! *_

At the last possible moment I realised why my brakes were not working and span the adjustment dials to move the pads back into their working positions...


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## Lovacott (30 Apr 2021)

a.twiddler said:


> Even the cheapest no name V brakes seem to work well. Probably the biggest unrecognised improvement in bike brakes of the last few decades. The drawback being, that as fitted usually to MTBs the extra power helps to grind the environment into the rims, which doesn't help with rim longevity. Hence the move to discs on anything but a basic model nowadays. On a general purpose hybrid or round town type MTB, not such a problem, and a good brake.


Horses for courses.

On muddy back roads, you can't beat discs but they cost a bit to maintain.

On proper roads, you are better off with rim brakes.

For stopping power, I can't notice any difference between the rim brakes on my road bike and the discs on the MTB?

That said, my judgement is slightly skewed because I never take the road bike out in the wet.

That's the joy of having more than one bike (as of today, my bike count is three and the missus is talking divorce).


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## Blue Hills (30 Apr 2021)

ColinJ said:


> Do you do many long, wet, muddy rides on those wheels? I found on some of the killers round here that I could wear brake blocks out in a few such rides and the worn blocks had slithers of alloy in them so the rims were also taking a battering. I wore one pair of blocks through mid-descent, but it was too dangerous to stop braking. By the time I got to the bottom, my wheel rim had been destroyed!


I'm assuming that this is on road riding - not offroad MTBing, where I can see the point of discs.

But assuming this is on road, don't you clean your rims regularly/check the pads for bits?


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## Drago (30 Apr 2021)

Venod said:


> Giant had a closed hydraulic system at one time, if you was on the brakes for a long descent in warm weather the would stay on giving you an automatic comfort brake, the first time it happened I was struggling to pedal on a steep descent.


The Giant MPH system was like that. I was safety officer (2IC) on a course with a team from Lincs Police. The sun came in quite strong early lunchtime, and within an hour all their brakes had locked on. Fiddling with the dial malarkey did bugher all. Luckily a twizzle of the bleed nipple to relieve the pressure fixed them, but a bit of a poor show for the all conquering walking on water disc brake.


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## Lovacott (30 Apr 2021)

Drago said:


> The Giant MPH system was like that. I was safety officer (2IC) on a course with a team from Lincs Police. The sun came in quite strong early lunchtime, and within an hour all their brakes had locked on. Fiddling with the dial malarkey did bugher all. Luckily a twizzle of the bleed nipple to relieve the pressure fixed them, but a bit of a poor show for the all conquering walking on water disc brake.


I've never ridden a hydraulic disc brake bike but I've just bought one.

I'd have preferred a cable set up for ease of maintenance but the bike I wanted only had the hydraulic option.

The main advantage with a disc is that it is away from the worst of the crap on muddy roads and tracks and performs the same in the wet or the dry. 

A couple of the guys at work are seriously into off road mountain biking (a big thing in places like Exmoor) and they swear by discs.

I can't see the point of discs on a road bike though? I've yet to see a club cyclist with discs on a road bike.

Like I said earlier, it's horses for courses.


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## Andy in Germany (30 Apr 2021)

Lovacott said:


> I do the same. It's mainly so that I can feel a bit smug about the fact that my spare parts don't cost three figures.



I have that experience every time work colleagues discuss car maintenance...


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## Andy in Germany (30 Apr 2021)

TheDoctor said:


> The next bike I build up will probably have downtube levers. I've given up on more than 9 gears too.



I fitted those on the tourer, to see how they worked: I prefer then to trigger shifters now.


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## ColinJ (30 Apr 2021)

Blue Hills said:


> I'm assuming that this is on road riding - not offroad MTBing, where I can see the point of discs.
> 
> But assuming this is on road, don't you clean your rims regularly/check the pads for bits?


That was on my first mountain bike and offroad. The replacement MTB has disk brakes. 

That reminds me - the MTB needs a lot of work doing, especially to the brakes. My cousin gave me a box of parts including improved brakes. I'll have to get to work on it.


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## FishFright (30 Apr 2021)

So in conclusion we all need to be more spendy than the skipdiver but not buy anything too nice things because of what the other wallet guarders may think (and boy do they pile on when anyone mentions dura-ace)


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## Drago (30 Apr 2021)

I don't think its an expense thing. I'll merrily spend more than is wise on cycling fripperies. Its a simplicity thing, and simplicity, lack of unnecessary complication, and elegance of function and design can be found at any price point.


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## swee'pea99 (1 May 2021)

Drago said:


> I don't think its an expense thing. I'll merrily spend more than is wise on cycling fripperies. Its a simplicity thing, and simplicity, lack of unnecessary complication, and elegance of function and design can be found at any price point.


Absolutely. I've never understood the demise of the quill stem in favour of the A-head for that very reason. But that's another story...


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## raleighnut (1 May 2021)

Lovacott said:


> I listen to modern music I'll have you know. That Fleetwood Mac lot are pretty good.


Although rumours are they're gonna have wimmin singers on the new stuff.


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## Blue Hills (1 May 2021)

FishFright said:


> So in conclusion we all need to be more spendy than the skipdiver but not buy anything too nice things because of what the other wallet guarders may think (and boy do they pile on when anyone mentions dura-ace)


not about money - one of my self-builds (original core cost £21) has a brand new XT rear mech on it - I know it will last/give good simple reliable service. Another of my self-builds (original core cost £30) has an Ultegra rear mech - it is on its second bike though with new jockey wheels. Another (original core cost £30) has Spa handbuilt wheels. All have other quality components, some second-hand as they'd been discontinued. All 9 speed. All simple - don't see any serious maintenance issues with any of them - have spare bits ready for any that wear out.


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## Andy in Germany (1 May 2021)

Blue Hills said:


> not about money.



I can confirm that, as I'm already planning the next elderly bike refurb, even though I don't actually _need _another bike...

...Or do I?


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## davidphilips (1 May 2021)

Like Blue Hills and Drago like to keep with simple cycling technology as Drago said, lack of unnecessary complication, if it works its reliable and easy to maintain thats what i like.

TBH i fail on the spending as i do spend/buy a lot of nice bits but as i dont drink smoke or gamble, drive a used cheap car so why not? 

Andy in Germany, you have the same problem as myself N+1 usually means owning bikes that would last 100 life times.


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## Blue Hills (1 May 2021)

davidphilips said:


> Like Blue Hills and Drago like to keep with simple cycling technology as Drago said, lack of unnecessary complication, if it works its reliable and easy to maintain thats what i like.
> 
> TBH i fail on the spending as i do spend/buy a lot of nice bits but as i dont drink smoke or gamble, drive a used cheap car so why not?
> 
> Andy in Germany, you have the same problem as myself N+1 usually means owning bikes that would last 100 life times.


I'd definitely go ahead and build @Andy in Germany - if the stuff is all nice and simple it can all be taken apart again later in life if needed and used on other bikes, unlike the componentry of some of the more advanced concoctions - three of my bikes (2 bought new, 1 built) use the same 12-36 9 speed cassette but they are quite different bikes.


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## Blue Hills (1 May 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> Why would that make you bad? Surely it will just enable you to be better informed about advanced bits.
> 
> You don't have to use something to find it interesting. I've followed a number of DI2 threads in some detail, fascinating stuff. Disk brakes, yes I know a fair bit about them from here. Never owned them though.


I think maybe you missed my admission of sin/feelings of slight guilt at the following, and that I have little desire to fit the stuff.
ie - motivated for that warm glow by what you might term schadenfreude.

Maybe those germans, masters of the simple tough and practical, could come up with a more specific bike related word for the sin.


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## Andy in Germany (1 May 2021)

Blue Hills said:


> I think maybe you missed my admission of sin/feelings of slight guilt at the following, and that I have little desire to fit the stuff.
> ie - motivated for that warm glow by what you might term schadenfreude.
> 
> Maybe those germans, masters of the simple tough and practical, could come up with a more specific bike related word for the sin.



It would probably be 37 letters long and have a capital letter. I'll see what I can find.


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## Blue Hills (1 May 2021)

Andy in Germany said:


> It would probably be 37 letters long and have a capital letter. I'll see what I can find.


quite possibly - pretty much the only word i remember from my school german is Geschwindigkeitsbegrenzung - speed limit.


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## Andy in Germany (1 May 2021)

Blue Hills said:


> I'd definitely go ahead and build @Andy in Germany - if the stuff is all nice and simple it can all be taken apart again later in life if needed and used on other bikes, unlike the componentry of some of the more advanced concoctions - three of my bikes (2 bought new, 1 built) use the same 12-36 9 speed cassette but they are quite different bikes.



I work on a similar principle: nearly all of my bikes are 26" wheeled Steel MTB rebuilds with roughly the same components so I can swap them, which helped my one day when I had a V-Brake fail* when I was supposed to be going to an interview: ten minutes later I had a working bike again.

The only problem with this policy is that to my astonishment the tourer I built a couple of years ago, whilst a lovely lightweight and fast bike, is possibly a bit on the small side, something I've never experienced with a bike before. I've been contemplating a version 2.0 based on a frame for 700cc wheels.

It occurs to me that taking a new job working partly in a bike shop that exists to recycle old bikes may be a rather dangerous decision...

*_By fail, I mean I broke it while trying to set it..._


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## Andy in Germany (1 May 2021)

Blue Hills said:


> Maybe those germans, masters of the simple tough and practical, could come up with a more specific bike related word for the sin.



Geringeßelbstschulgefühlewegenkomponentenverwandeterproblemenanderen.

"Slight feeling of self guilt about other people's component related problems"


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## tyred (1 May 2021)

Juan Kog said:


> You have a bike fitted with one if those new fangled derailing devices .


I'll have you know that I have state-of-the-art four speed Cyclo-Benelux on my Raleigh Trent.


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## Lovacott (1 May 2021)

Blue Hills said:


> ..unlike the componentry of some of the more advanced concoctions - three of my bikes (2 bought new, 1 built) use the same 12-36 9 speed cassette but they are quite different bikes.



As you all already know, there is non linear increase in performance with a higher priced component. Paying ten times more for something might only give you a 5% performance gain.

I've got the Apollo for commuting (new £140), the Boardman Carbon Road bike (new £1000) and now the Voodoo for dry day commuting (new £450).

I'd say that the Voodoo is about 40% better than the Apollo for performance with the Boardman being about 15% better than the Voodoo.

The Apollo is cheap to fix. It has a Shimano Tourney groupset and the components are so cheap, I've got a complete set of spares so that if anything goes wrong, I won't need to wait for parts. The Tourney set up works quite well and is easy to maintain and set up. The groupsets on the Voodoo and the Boardman are double and triple in price compared to the Apollo but maybe only 10% and 20% sweeter. I'm not about to spend ten grand on a new bike for maybe a 10% increase in performance.

But like with anything we buy, one mans expensive is another mans cheap.

You won't see Simon Cowell lining up at Halfrods to collect his £135 Indi Mtb.

And you won't see me riding around on a £16,500 Swindon Powertrain .

But, bottom line is, if I won the lottery tonight, I'd probably go out and buy the most expensive and advanced bike ever made and I'd throw my peasant bikes to the local poor people.


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## Juan Kog (1 May 2021)

TheDoctor said:


> The next bike I build up will probably have downtube levers. I've given up on more than 9 gears too.





Andy in Germany said:


> I fitted those on the tourer, to see how they worked: I prefer then to trigger shifters now.


I always have D/T levers on a touring bike . Less vulnerable in the event of accident or bike simply falling over and easier to sort problems on the road .


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## Lovacott (1 May 2021)

Juan Kog said:


> I always have D/T levers on a touring bike . Less vulnerable in the event of accident or bike simply falling over and easier to sort problems on the road .


I grew up with levers.

No indexing and forward meant up and backward meant down.

When I say no indexing, the position of each cog was stored in my brain rather than hard set into a brifter, twist or trigger shift. As a result, I could apply "fuzzy logic" to any shift and adjust to the conditions and workload when required.

The only gear adjustment you'd ever make was to the limit stops. 

I'd have friction levers on all of my bikes today if it were an option.


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## Andy in Germany (1 May 2021)

Lovacott said:


> I grew up with levers.
> 
> No indexing and forward meant up and backward meant down.
> 
> ...



On the tourer the back cassette is indexed and the front is friction, which I find the perfect combination.


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## Lovacott (1 May 2021)

Andy in Germany said:


> On the tourer the back cassette is indexed and the front is friction, which I find the perfect combination.


My daughters Apollo has twist grips with the front mech/left grip being non indexed.

I find it really easy to use, she hates it and relies entirely on the indexed back gears whilst leaving the chain permanently on the front middle ring.


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## battered (1 May 2021)

I like to have bikes, and other stuff, that's fit for purpose without being excessive. If I wanted to go touring in the Alps I'd have no objection to having a £2000 bike with eleventy -seven gears, bespoke luggage and brakes that would stop Guy Martin's bike. But I wouldn't then use that for commuting, it's a waste. I've just been out to the post box, used my £35 single speed hybrid. It was great. But I'm not stupid enough to don a hair shirt and take it up Pool Bank every day. The same goes for tents etc, for winter in Scotland or high mountain use I want the top of the shop, but I wouldn't then use it in a pub field in summer, collecting UV damage and getting peed on by passing dogs.


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## Lovacott (1 May 2021)

battered said:


> I like to have bikes, and other stuff, that's fit for purpose without being excessive. If I wanted to go touring in the Alps I'd have no objection to having a £2000 bike with eleventy -seven gears, bespoke luggage and brakes that would stop Guy Martin's bike.


I'm the same with the car and the house. If it does what it says on the tin, I'm happy enough.

Do I really need a 20 bed mansion to live in? Probably not.

Do I need a £2000 bike for a work commute? Probably not.


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## ColinJ (1 May 2021)

Blue Hills said:


> pretty much the only word i remember from my school german is Geschwindigkeitsbegrenzung - speed limit.


The one that stuck in my mind was _luftfahrtgesellschaft - _airline. Mainly because I made a joke about my flatulent schoolmate having a very active one...


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## simongt (1 May 2021)

Lovacott said:


> That Fleetwood Mac lot are pretty good.


Indeed. I understand that some lads who go under the moniker of 'The Rolling Stones' are doing quite well - !


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## Juan Kog (1 May 2021)

I’m growing increasingly concerned, 6 pages in to this thread . Where’s @SkipdiverJohn . Maybe some should pop round to see if he is OK .


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## SkipdiverJohn (1 May 2021)

Juan Kog said:


> I’m growing increasingly concerned, 6 pages in to this thread . Where’s @SkipdiverJohn . Maybe some should pop round to see if he is OK .



Give us a chance! The thread has only been going for two days and I hadnt noticed it until you mentioned my name like a coven summoning the Devil.
It won't come as any surprise that I agree completely with the philosophy that cycling should always be simple., reliable and preferably cheap into the bargain.
Rather than just buy cheap low end bikes at cheap prices, I prefer to leverage my spend and get superior quality secondhand bikes at cheap prices, and the low end ones at pull out of skip prices or not very much more.
Shiny new retail therapy desn't float my boat I'm afraid. New and shiny doesn't last long, and it's an expensive way of getting a short term feelgood factor. Like a car with the latest reg plate, six months later it's old hat. My cars don't have year-letter plates on them. Age doesn't matter, condition does.


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## Lovacott (2 May 2021)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Shiny new retail therapy doesn't float my boat I'm afraid. New and shiny doesn't last long, and it's an expensive way of getting a short term feelgood factor.



I grew up getting hand me downs and the first brand new bike I ever bought was the Boardman on the cycle to work scheme two months ago.

I've just picked up a brand new Voodoo Marasa as a fun bike/ good weather commuter.

There's something about being the first person on Earth to ride a particular machine. Hard to explain.


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## Arrowfoot (2 May 2021)

Blue Hills said:


> not about money - one of my self-builds (original core cost £21) has a brand new XT rear mech on it - I know it will last/give good simple reliable service. Another of my self-builds (original core cost £30) has an Ultegra rear mech - it is on its second bike though with new jockey wheels. Another (original core cost £30) has Spa handbuilt wheels. All have other quality components, some second-hand as they'd been discontinued. All 9 speed. All simple - don't see any serious maintenance issues with any of them - have spare bits ready for any that wear out.


Picking a decent priced frame and putting on quality components resonates with me. I did the same with my last 2 bikes. Also admittedly I do like tinkering.


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## SkipdiverJohn (2 May 2021)

Lovacott said:


> I grew up getting hand me downs and the first brand new bike I ever bought was the Boardman on the cycle to work scheme two months ago.
> 
> I've just picked up a brand new Voodoo Marasa as a fun bike/ good weather commuter.
> 
> There's something about being the first person on Earth to ride a particular machine. Hard to explain.



I've bought the odd wheeled vehicle brand new, but not very often. Two bikes and one car over a 40 year period. In all three cases the reason I went ahead is I thought I was getting a very good deal for the price I was paying.


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## Andy in Germany (2 May 2021)

Arrowfoot said:


> Picking a decent priced frame and putting on quality components resonates with me. I did the same with my last 2 bikes. Also admittedly I do like tinkering.



I know what you mean: I feel the same about taking a frame others see as "junk" and making it into a useful bike, then going on adventures on said "junk" bike...


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## Lovacott (2 May 2021)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> I've bought the odd wheeled vehicle brand new, but not very often. Two bikes and one car over a 40 year period. In all three cases the reason I went ahead is I thought I was getting a very good deal for the price I was paying.


I've never bought a new car. I tend to go for well maintained vehicles around the five year old mark.

Cars take a massive depreciation hit the second they have an owners name in the logbook. Car logbooks and odometers tell you a lot about a vehicle.

Bikes don't have mileage records or logbooks, so you'd need a very keen eye to spot things like a drivetrain on the cusp of being knackered.

If I was going to buy a second hand bike, I'd buy it for the frame and wheels only and I'd expect to have to renew the rest.


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## Reynard (2 May 2021)

Andy in Germany said:


> I know what you mean: I feel the same about taking a frame others see as "junk" and making it into a useful bike, then going on adventures on said "junk" bike...



This ^^^

I'm getting such a kick out of riding Max the MTB. And get an even bigger kick when folks on posh bikes say "nice bike" to me. 

Makes all the work in putting the whole thing together worthwhile. Not bad for a £25 clunker picked up at the local tip - although I did have to put in a fair bit of investment (time and money) into the project. But at the end of the day, I've a bespoke bike that's a hoot to ride. Just need to do something about the tatty seatpost and bars now, but that's not urgent.

My other two bikes are safely mid-range, though only the Rouen was bought new.

Grandad Arthur used to say "I'm too poor to buy cheap stuff" - and I agree. But on the flip side, I'm never going to be a strong enough / good enough cyclist to warrant spending silly money.

Funny thing though, my bikes always get admiring glances, so I must've done *something* right


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## Andy in Germany (2 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> This ^^^
> 
> I'm getting such a kick out of riding Max the MTB. And get an even bigger kick when folks on posh bikes say "nice bike" to me.
> 
> ...



I've had people stop and ask me about my touring bike fairly often and ask lots of questions, chief amongst them being "where do you get bikes like that?"

On the other hand I remember riding my tourer (of downbar lever fame) near Stuttgart, and passing a few erm... older people on very expensive looking Ebikes. One lady looked at me and said to her friend: "Gosh, that poor man even has those really old gear levers..."


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## Reynard (2 May 2021)

Andy in Germany said:


> I've had people stop and ask me about my touring bike fairly often and ask lots of questions, chief amongst them being "where do you get bikes like that?"



That's actually really cool. I haven't had anyone ask me that *YET* about the MTB, but that's a regular question with the roadie. People think I'm funning them when I say Halfords...



> On the other hand I remember riding my tourer (of downbar lever fame) near Stuttgart, and passing a few erm... older people on very expensive looking Ebikes. One lady looked at me and said to her friend: "Gosh, that poor man even has those really old gear levers..."



On the flip side, if something goes *ping* on your bike, chances are you'd be able to bodge a repair to get you home. On those fancypants e-bikes, that's much less likely, I'd wager...


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## Moon bunny (2 May 2021)

As long as my bike gets me where I want to go and back without breaking I’m happy. Other people can worry about spending £lots to improve the numbers as they ride around in a big circle if that’s their thing.


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## Tribansman (2 May 2021)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Rather than just buy cheap low end bikes at cheap prices, I prefer to leverage my spend and get superior quality secondhand bikes at cheap prices, and the low end ones at pull out of skip prices or not very much more.


Generally agree and is mostly my approach, but I guess we're fortunate that there are those who want to buy and keep buying new bikes, or there wouldn't be many superior quality secondhand bikes at cheap prices to pick up!


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## SkipdiverJohn (2 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> Grandad Arthur used to say "I'm too poor to buy cheap stuff" - and I agree.



There's certainly an element of truth in this, that if you go for the lowest priced junk with the most features per pound, you will probably end up spending more overall than if you had gone up the quality ladder just a rung or two. 
I recently bought a 1-2" micrometer, and the easy option would have been a cheapo new Chinese one as I'm only going to use it now and then, so I don't want to pay megabucks. However I bided my time until a very nice used Moore & Wright mic came up at sensible money, and bought that instead. Still in its original wooden box with adjusting tools, paperwork and it's 1" precision ground calibration disc. I'm pretty sure its pre-WW2 so over 80 years old but still better than a brand new one and its accuracy is spot-on as I recieved it. It will outlast me just like it outlasted its original owner, no doubt about it. Buy good quality, buy once.


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## DCBassman (2 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> This ^^^
> 
> I'm getting such a kick out of riding Max the MTB. And get an even bigger kick when folks on posh bikes say "nice bike" to me.
> 
> Makes all the work in putting the whole thing together worthwhile. Not bad for a £25 clunker picked up at the local tip - although I did have to put in a fair bit of investment (time and money) into the project. But at the end of the day, I've a bespoke bike that's a hoot to ride. Just need to do something about the tatty seatpost and bars now, but that's not urgent.


This this! My bikes and my bass are like this, custom-built for me, by me. 'Tis the only way to go.


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## Reynard (2 May 2021)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> There's certainly an element of truth in this, that if you go for the lowest priced junk with the most features per pound, you will probably end up spending more overall than if you had gone up the quality ladder just a rung or two.
> I recently bought a 1-2" micrometer, and the easy option would have been a cheapo new Chinese one as I'm only going to use it now and then, so I don't want to pay megabucks. However I bided my time until a very nice used Moore & Wright mic came up at sensible money, and bought that instead. Still in its original wooden box with adjusting tools, paperwork and it's 1" precision ground calibration disc. I'm pretty sure its pre-WW2 so over 80 years old but still better than a brand new one and its accuracy is spot-on as I recieved it. It will outlast me just like it outlasted its original owner, no doubt about it. Buy good quality, buy once.



Is it OK to admit that I now have tool envy? 

There are very few more satisfying things than working with really nice tools. 

Edited to add, my 1941 Singer 99k sewing machine is much the same. Even today, it's a joy to use, even though all it does is sew a straight seam. Mind you, a straight seam covers a *lot* of sewing.


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## postman (2 May 2021)

Mrs P will agree with you.She got me second hand tarnished and broken way back in 89,she lavished care and love on me and I am still going nearly 31 years later.Things creak a little more than they did and I go a lot slower but she got a bargain.


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## CharleyFarley (2 May 2021)

My foray into the cycling world began after I retired. Six or seven years ago I was thrilled to buy an aluminum framed single speed beach cruiser with a coaster brake. It didn't take me long to wish I had something with gears on it, and normal brakes. I bought a bottom of the line fat bike from a bike shop and soon began to see where it fell short. Cutting a long story short, I now have two bike shop quality bikes, both aluminum framed, a fatty and a beach cruiser with gears.

Around the same time I began to frequent a bike forum where it seemed to be necessary to keep up with the Joneses. Then came a cycling mag which only made me feel like a pauper. How was I ever to be like the big guys? Why did I want to be like them? Then slowly I began to see that much of what I was reading was B.S. probably from guys who did more bragging than riding.

I'm glad to keep things simple. My only electronic purchase apart from lights was a bike computer, just the simple kind that doesn't have street maps. I'm sure some of the elite cyclists would scorn my rides but I'm happy with them, and I have no ambition about buying better bikes. They ride very well, and I've modified them a bit but nothing expensive. And as for cyclings mags, they're a thing of the past. In all things learn to be content, then you won't have to look for happiness.


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## SkipdiverJohn (2 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> Is it OK to admit that I now have tool envy?
> There are very few more satisfying things than working with really nice tools.
> 
> Edited to add, my 1941 Singer 99k sewing machine is much the same. Even today, it's a joy to use, even though all it does is sew a straight seam. Mind you, a straight seam covers a *lot* of sewing.



Its OK to 'fess up to tool envy, I really appreciate the decent stuff even though I often use cheaper tools if they're getting left in vehicles etc. I'm of the opinion the best British stuff was made from the early years of the 20th century up until the end of the 60's or maybe just a bit later.
Good tools were never cheap, but they were made properly to last a lifetime. Pride of place in my tool shed, when I finally get it properly organised & set up, will be a 1954-ish Myford Super 7 centre lathe. It cost me almost as much used as a new cheap & nasty modern Chinese machine, but you can't compare the two. Pretty much the Gold standard for hobbyist engineers or small scale machine shop use for decades. Made in Nottingham, just like Raleigh bikes, and also outlasted their makers factory too.


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## Reynard (3 May 2021)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Its OK to 'fess up to tool envy, I really appreciate the decent stuff even though I often use cheaper tools if they're getting left in vehicles etc. I'm of the opinion the best British stuff was made from the early years of the 20th century up until the end of the 60's or maybe just a bit later.
> Good tools were never cheap, but they were made properly to last a lifetime. Pride of place in my tool shed, when I finally get it properly organised & set up, will be a 1954-ish Myford Super 7 centre lathe. It cost me almost as much used as new a cheap & nasty modern Chinese machine, but you can't compare the two. Pretty much the Gold standard for hobbyist engineers or small scale machine shop use for decades. Made in Nottingham, just like Raleigh bikes, and also outlasted their makers factory too.



Oh, I totally get the "use cheaper tools in the possible presence of sticky fingers thing"

Outside of that, though... It's the same with camera lenses - good glass isn't cheap, but it does stand the test of time. The youngest of my lenses is approaching 20 years old and is still pin sharp. Most of my glass is pro quality, but the one lens where I did compromise was on a 300 2.8. I couldn't justify dropping the money on the Canon version * for something that would get the least use out of all my glass, so I bought a secondhand Sigma off a colleague who upgraded. It's nowhere near as good, but it's good to have it when I *do* need it.

* I also couldn't hand hold it, as it was simply too big and heavy...


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## SkipdiverJohn (3 May 2021)

Are you doing your photography purely as a hobby though, or is it part of earning a living? I'm afraid my snapping is just mobile phone quality, and instamatic back in the days of analogue & film. I'm no David Bailey! 
I do appreciate others good 35mm photos though, especially pin sharp black & white. For some reason they always seem far more atmospheric to me than colour.


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## Reynard (3 May 2021)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Are you doing your photography purely as a hobby though, or is it part of earning a living? I'm afraid my snapping is just mobile phone quality, and instamatic back in the days of analogue & film. I'm no David Bailey!
> I do appreciate others good 35mm photos though, especially pin sharp black & white. For some reason they always seem far more atmospheric to me than colour.



The latter, though these days it's very much the former.


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## swee'pea99 (3 May 2021)

I buy everything second hand apart from food. Twice as much for half the money!

Apart from underwear. And white t-shirts.

You can't put a price on dignity.


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## Reynard (3 May 2021)

There's no shame in buying second hand. I've picked up many a bargain from charity shops / boot sales etc.

I go yellow stickering. That's very much sharpen the elbows and leave the dignity at the door.


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## CharleyFarley (4 May 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> A bike is a complicated machine. If you want simplicity, you should walk...



The Ministry of Silly Walks would have a fit if they saw your statement. Walking is much more than just swinging one leg and then the other. The ministry exists because of the complications that can arise through day to day ambulating.


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## Blue Hills (4 May 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> A bike is a complicated machine. If you want simplicity, you should walk. But for cycling pleasure you really do need a bike.
> 
> So you need to draw an arbitrary line in the sand that is your benchmark for simplicity, and say "This is complicated enough, it's the sweet spot, beyond that is _too_ complicated". Where do you draw it? Pneumatic tyres? Fixed wheel? Gears? Cotter pins? Indexed gears? GPS? and so on. It's just a matter of personal taste.
> 
> ...


mm - i fear you are after an argument mr dogtrousers or dissing me as an old git shouting at clouds. I assure you that I have tried a fair few more "advanced" options since I got into cycling. Suspension hub anyone?

I also disagree with you in that I don't think bikes complicated - they are essentially very simple - or can be. If I can sort mine on the kitchen floor they must be.

Now your walking for instance - that is complicated - take a look at the ankle, the knee, all those tendons etc etc. Doesn't bear thinking about. Self surgery not a realistic proposition.


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## simongt (5 May 2021)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> I'm pretty sure its pre-WW2


I stil have my late dad's prismatic compass that he was issued with when he volunteered in WW2. And this particular compass had, according to the date stamp on the base, been originally issued in 1914 - ! 
Still works a treat - !


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## Lovacott (9 May 2021)

Venod said:


> I have spent a lifetime repairing mechanical things and a well maintained normal gear system just works, with no battery, remembering to charge etc involved, Di2 you press a button it changes gear, I move a lever it changes gear.


+1.

I grew up with non indexed downtube levers where you could fine tune your gearing in real time and there was no such thing as indexing your gears.

If I were going to upgrade my current gears, I'd go back in time to downtube levers.


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## SuperHans123 (9 May 2021)

I think disc brakes are so ubiquitous now as to be classed as bog standard as v brakes. I like both, easy to fit and maintain. Definitely prefer disc brakes in terms of stopping power and feel.


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