# TdeF 2015



## raindog (21 Oct 2014)

released on twatter 24 hours before the official presentation
someone's in for a bollocking


----------



## Dogtrousers (21 Oct 2014)

Livarot! One of my favourite cheeses!


----------



## gavgav (21 Oct 2014)

A flat grand depart then if it's in Holland!!


----------



## Berk on a Bike (21 Oct 2014)

Just the one individual TT...?


----------



## Strathlubnaig (21 Oct 2014)

Alpe d'Huez summit finish... old skool nice one.


----------



## Berties (21 Oct 2014)

A nice selection of Northern France stages for us Brits to get in on , I will be staying in the area from 9th


----------



## John the Canuck (21 Oct 2014)

too many air miles ----wimps.!


----------



## The Couch (22 Oct 2014)

Froome is suggesting he might focus on Giro (and Vuelta) instead of Tour

I believe contradicting what he said 2 years ago (when I believe he made the comment the next 7? years he would totally focus on the Tour)


----------



## RobNewcastle (22 Oct 2014)

The Couch said:


> Froome is suggesting he might focus on Giro (and Vuelta) instead of Tour
> 
> I believe contradicting what he said 2 years ago (when I believe he made the comment the next 7? years he would totally focus on the Tour)



60km of TT in the Giro and the desire to beat Contador might be a big factor. Good tour route for Quintana


----------



## Beebo (22 Oct 2014)

The Couch said:


> Froome is suggesting he might focus on Giro (and Vuelta) instead of Tour


Yep, here's a BBC link.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/29721147


----------



## rich p (22 Oct 2014)

If Froome does that, we still won't see the anticipated clash of the 'big four'. Shame.


----------



## RobNewcastle (22 Oct 2014)

rich p said:


> If Froome does that, we still won't see the anticipated clash of the 'big four'. Shame.



Agree it would be a shame. Although we'd still get a proper head to head of Froome and Contador at the Giro and then Nibali, Quintana and Contador at the Tour, still pretty decent. You'd have to think Nibali will definitely want to defend at the tour seeing as nobody has done it in years (Armstrong wins wiped out) and the route is well suited to Quintana. Contador has already said he'll give the Giro/tour double a bash.


----------



## cd365 (22 Oct 2014)

A finish in Fougeres, right near my house in France, Rennes is not far away either. Though the Mur de Bretagne finish is near my mates house so might watch that instead of the start in Rennes.


----------



## smutchin (22 Oct 2014)

gavgav said:


> A flat grand depart then if it's in Holland!!



Stage 3 looks like it could be pretty tasty though.


----------



## 400bhp (22 Oct 2014)

cd365 said:


> A finish in Fougeres, right near my house in France, Rennes is not far away either. Though the Mur de Bretagne finish is near my mates house so might watch that instead of the start in Rennes.



Bl00dy hell, Fougeres again-twas there 2 years ago My mother used to live in St Brice De Llandelles.

Holiday awaits...gah, pesky kid is at school until 23 July :sulk:


----------



## User169 (22 Oct 2014)

gavgav said:


> A flat grand depart then if it's in Holland!!


 
If it's windy, stage 2 could be good. Unfortunately though, most of the "excitement" in Dutch road racing is provided by the road furniture.


----------



## Dogtrousers (22 Oct 2014)

I was touring through that bit of N France last year. I really wanted to go via Livarot, for the cheese, but various other considerations meant that I took the route elsewhere. Monsieur Prudhomme is obviously made of sterner stuff than me when it comes to cheese.


----------



## coffeejo (22 Oct 2014)

Don't know how to embed tweets here but Cav's just said:



> Was at @letour 2015 presentation today. Great route next year! Going to be some exhausted legs, but a good few stages for @opqscyclingteam


----------



## dragon72 (22 Oct 2014)

Not a parcours to tempt Sir Wiggins out of grand tour retirement either. It would need a week's worth of ITT for that to happen.


----------



## Doc333 (22 Oct 2014)

One thing that is bound to be a bit controversial on here is any talk about Froome. Yes at least 50% on here love him and want his babies, but not me. DB should have been able to see right through this bloke in 2012, and lets be frank here, SKY are nowhere these days because of it, and the only success has really been G. Froome had a huge part in the decline of Brad and got rid of his mojo, and it also blew away the fantastic team spirit of Sky, because it changed to team Chris and fook the rest. Sorry folks but we're all entitled to an opinion, and now we won't see a competitive Sky next year


----------



## RobNewcastle (22 Oct 2014)

Doc333 said:


> One thing that is bound to be a bit controversial on here is any talk about Froome. Yes at least 50% on here love him and want his babies, but not me. DB should have been able to see right through this bloke in 2012, and lets be frank here, SKY are nowhere these days because of it, and the only success has really been G. Froome had a huge part in the decline of Brad and got rid of his mojo, and it also blew away the fantastic team spirit of Sky, because it changed to team Chris and fook the rest. Sorry folks but we're all entitled to an opinion, and now we won't see a competitive Sky next year



And the other 50% adores Wiggins to the detriment of sensible balanced posts, lol. I like both riders to but to say that Froome had a huge part in Wiggins decline is rubbish. Froome could and possibly should've won the 2011 Vuelta, he was stronger and there's an argument to say he was close to winning the tour in 2012. If anyone has been hampered by the other it's a Froome by Wiggins. Wiggins is a great rider, he rode a brilliant tour on a route which suited him but it's no wonder Froome has been chosen to lead the team. He's a brilliant climber and can TT, it's natural selection, simple as. Sky has lost it's way a bit the last couple of seasons but considering what they've achieved winning two tours coming from nowhere, it's difficult to over criticise them really.


----------



## zimzum42 (22 Oct 2014)

Pretty transparent attempt by the Frogs to get a French winner after this year's podium. Just a shame that it won't happen for them (I say shame, but it's a joy...)

My money's on Bertie, don't reckon Nibali will manage two...
Might be worth a punt on Majka if the odds are good...


----------



## Peteaud (22 Oct 2014)

Sky have not lost their way, the other have just caught up.

Back to the op

Nothing in the middle of France?


----------



## zimzum42 (22 Oct 2014)

Peteaud said:


> Sky have not lost their way, the other have just caught up.
> 
> Back to the op
> 
> Nothing in the middle of France?


Correct, there is nothing in the middle of France, not worth going there...


----------



## raindog (22 Oct 2014)

zimzum42 said:


> (I say shame, but it's a joy...)


classy.....


----------



## zimzum42 (22 Oct 2014)

raindog said:


> classy.....


Come on, the ongoing failure of the French to win their own race is one of the best things in modern pro cycling


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (22 Oct 2014)

Almost a whole page without it descending into SKY/Wiggo/Froome guff


----------



## rich p (22 Oct 2014)

This section seems to be attracting trolls or trollish posts lately. Discussion and disagreement are fine and dandy but pathetic points scoring we can do without.
Keep it to P&L eh?


----------



## albion (22 Oct 2014)

Froomes comments do suggest that it is Wiggos turn.

Froome failed so if Wiggo does take part and win. then only a retirement gets Froome back as tour leader.


----------



## zimzum42 (22 Oct 2014)

albion said:


> Froomes comments do suggest that it is Wiggos turn.
> 
> Froome failed so if Wiggo does take part and win. then only a retirement gets Froome back as tour leader.


But it's even less of a Wiggo course than it is a Froome course, so I don't reckon that makes sense. I reckon all the Brits will have to aim for is some Cav stage wins...


----------



## RobNewcastle (22 Oct 2014)

I'd like to see Quintana win


----------



## albion (22 Oct 2014)

zimzum42 said:


> But it's even less of a Wiggo course than it is a Froome course..


I'm not sure Froome has a course. I'd like to see a Brit win and only Wiggo will know if he can.


----------



## zimzum42 (22 Oct 2014)

albion said:


> I'm not sure Froome has a course. I'd like to see a Brit win and only Wiggo will know if he can.


Froome's course would be along a tram track so he could stare at his stem for the whole race...


----------



## albion (22 Oct 2014)

Below the belt. Froome won a lot of fans but really needed a win at the Vuelta.
Wiggos style is similar.


----------



## Dogtrousers (22 Oct 2014)

Bit Brad has said he definitely isn't doing any more GTs. And we know he never changes his mind or announces bizarre conflicting plans. So Wiggo it is (unless he's doing BMX or something next year).

Anyway, enough of this Froome v Wiggo nonsense. What about the _*cheese?*_


----------



## 400bhp (22 Oct 2014)

blah blah Wiggo blah blah Frooome blah blah stem blah blah


----------



## NorvernRob (22 Oct 2014)

albion said:


> I'm not sure Froome has a course. I'd like to see a Brit win and only Wiggo will know if he can.



One short ITT and loads of mountains - Wiggins has absolutely zero chance of winning that tour unless at least half a dozen others all get ill or fall off. Froome has a good chance of winning it but it's not ideal. The Giro is better for him with a long TT, and the possibility to do a Giro/Vuelta double and become one of the few to win all 3 GT's must be tempting. 

I still can't see him skipping the Tour, but you never know.


----------



## Pedrosanchezo (22 Oct 2014)

Berti, Froome or Nibbles. Sounds good to me........


----------



## Berk on a Bike (22 Oct 2014)

zimzum42 said:


> Might be worth a punt on Majka if the odds are good...


50/1 is best price at the moment. Bung the housekeeping on it.


----------



## Buddfox (23 Oct 2014)

Isn't this tailor-made for Quintana, with so few TT miles? Can see why Froome would skip it...


----------



## Flick of the Elbow (23 Oct 2014)

The Giro's a much classier race than the Tour, it would be great to see Froome winning it. I'm not at all bothered that he's missing the Tour.


----------



## Strathlubnaig (23 Oct 2014)

So if Froome skips the TdF because it is too hard not his kind of route then who do Team Sky have as a GC contender ? Or will they be going for individual stage wins a la OPQS ?


----------



## rich p (23 Oct 2014)

Strathlubnaig said:


> So if Froome skips the TdF because it is too hard not his kind of route then who do Team Sky have as a GC contender ? Or will they be going for individual stage wins a la OPQS ?


Exactly. Nobody with a realistic chance unless Porte or Henau step up a notch or two. I can't see Froome missing the Tour for a reserve team race like the Giro. (tongue in cheek)
The sponsors will surely want Froome at the biggest televised race of the year.


----------



## User169 (23 Oct 2014)

rich p said:


> Exactly. Nobody with a realistic chance unless Porte or Henau step up a notch or two. I can't see Froome missing the Tour for a reserve team race like the Giro. (tongue in cheek)
> The sponsors will surely want Froome at the biggest televised race of the year.


 
He's just keeping Bertie et al. on their toes! I'd be amazed if he isn't in Utrecht.


----------



## Dogtrousers (23 Oct 2014)

Maybe this is just another not terribly meaningful press statement that can't be taken too seriously. Maybe it represents the Sky management using Froome to shake its fist at Prudhomme. "Grrr! If you set a parcours that doesn't suit our main rider, we won't come, so there!".

As @rich p says, I can't imagine Sky (the sponsors, not the team) want to be paying £££ for a team to pull its star (ahem ... sorry, its _*co-*_star  ) rider out from the annual premier event that has by far the biggest coverage and public interest.


----------



## adscrim (23 Oct 2014)

I think I might put a tenner on Quintana being Yellow, White and Spotted come the end.


----------



## jowwy (23 Oct 2014)

i think its a good parcour for quintana and contador - but i'm also going to have my 2 cents worth on froome debate

in 2012 people stataed on here that wiggo only won that tour cause froome pulled back his attack on whatever stage it was ( can't remember now) and that froome should have won that year, but those same people have never chastised froome for taking an illegal gel from richie porte, that could have blown apart his whole grand tour winning ambitions as he was very very very very close to the bonk - just saying like


----------



## Hont (23 Oct 2014)

I'm with Rich P and Dogtrousers, I can't see Froome being allowed to skip the Tour by the sponsors especially as most of the UK mainstream media don't even know other bike races exist. However, I can absolutely see why he would not want to ride. The course plays into the hands of Quintana and Contador particularly and I don't imagine Froome would relish braving the Sky hating hordes on Alpe D'Huez after last time either.

To those suggesting that Wiggins might ride instead: he won't.

On a more general note, I don't like courses that are tipped so much in the balance of one type of rider (TTer v Climber). We've seen from climb heavy Giros that we invariably know who is going to win after the first big climb and the gap just grows as the race goes on. Or some obvious doper suddenly reaches peak form in week 3. Or both. Either way it's not great.


----------



## Crackle (23 Oct 2014)

Is there any more detail other than that overview and what's on the Tour Site?


----------



## Shadow (23 Oct 2014)

If, and I accept its a reasonably big if, CF does not ride Le Tour, Sky always have a great GC contender in L Konig - remember he finished this year 7th, 11 places higher than the top Sky rider. With a non-WT team.


----------



## The Couch (23 Oct 2014)

DIdn't think my Froome remark would turn this thread into yet another Froome vs. Wiggo debate 

Anyway back to the Tour 2015....
What hasn't been mentioned yet is that they also changed the point system (for the Points/Green jersey), so that the winner gets more points vs. the runner-ups.
This to help the "true sprinter" take the jersey (instead of Sagan taking it a couple of years in a row now).

Has anybody has done the math yet what the result would have been this year with next year's point system?
...cause if there are still a couple of "mediujm-mountain" stages with like a Cat 3 or Cat 2 climb in the last 20km before the finish, there will still be enough points for the all-rounders like Sagan and Kristoff (I am leaving Degenkolb out of it, since he won't be able to take points in the flat sprints if he is pulling for Kittel)


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (23 Oct 2014)

I think Carlos Sastre will win


----------



## rich p (23 Oct 2014)

The Couch said:


> Has anybody has done the math yet what the result would have been this year with next year's point system?


I had wondered that too but I'm far too lazy (and incompetent) to do it. Sort of thing @smutchin would be good at but he's still labouring over the pro-pundit scores


----------



## KneesUp (23 Oct 2014)

It will be interesting to see who is the Sky leader if Froome doesn't enter. 

They've signed Nicolas Roche, Leopold Konig for next year. I think it unlikely they'd go with Porte after his disappointing showing this year, but they also have Neive and Thomas - but really no names that leap out. I'd guess @Shadow is right and the leader will be Konig, who looked impressive this year.


----------



## Doc333 (23 Oct 2014)

I agree that the Froome/Wiggo thing is garbage now and needs putting to bed, even if I know which side of the bed I'd be in. Sky has some serious questions to answer though and I hope DB's latest recruits were brought in because they are able to cope with a different GT season than they expected. Neither Froome nor Brad would do any good on this course, but Sky need to have a plan, because they haven't had one all season. How many times have we seen a bit of Richie, followed by a day of G, and then Swifty etc, instead of having a plan and making it work. 2012 was awesome watching the Sky train, 2013 was also pretty much there, but since then we've seen everyone blow up and leave unprotected individuals busting their balls and crashing backwards down the field. Yes I suppose other teams have stepped up their game, but DB and his ethics should have ensured their was still a point of difference. This last season has showed just how good teams who have no real GC rider can be. Cav has missed most of the season but his team have excelled without him and have almost taken the top step on the podium. We always thought of them as sprinters who could win on different courses, and always had brilliant lead out trains. Sky haven't had that in reality for a couple of years. I'm patriotic and want to see us do well. Maybe its time DB brought back a sprinter for the TDF as he has no GC rider


----------



## The Couch (24 Oct 2014)

By the way, does anybody else also agree that the bonus seconds rule (of only using them from stage 2 to 8 seems... arbitrary 

There isn't that much logic in it across the 7 stages (since the type of stages are quite different) and why stop at the 8th stage?
(I guess they are assuming the GC-race will be pretty much over after the first high-mountain stages, but still.. a little consistency in rules/regulations would be nice, instead of just "selecting the rules" they seem fit for this year)

I believe there is more interest to be gotten in the first week by choosing a good route (like they did e.g. in 2012 and it seems this year as well), then by just trowing some extra rules in (with e.g. bonus seconds).


----------



## KneesUp (24 Oct 2014)

I think the bonuses are early on to encourage a bit more competition - it's a three week race so the real contenders aren't going to bust a gut for a few seconds here and there so early on - having the bonuses on the early stages means we might see a few changes of yellow jersey and a few teams competing to have it for a day or so, which all gives more publicity to the Tour and generates interest, so that when the really interesting bits start, a lot more people will be aware that the race is on. And of course more publicity means the sponsors are happier.


----------



## The Couch (24 Oct 2014)

KneesUp said:


> I think the bonuses are early on to encourage a bit more competition - it's a three week race so the real contenders aren't going to bust a gut for a few seconds here and there so early on - having the bonuses on the early stages means we might see a few changes of yellow jersey and a few teams competing to have it for a day or so, which all gives more publicity to the Tour and generates interest, so that when the really interesting bits start, a lot more people will be aware that the race is on. And of course more publicity means the sponsors are happier.


I am sure you are right in explaining their thinking... I was more commenting on the (lack of?) defining of the rules behind this change.
(and there are many counterarguments to be made that continuing the bonuses in the mountains/beyond 8 stages can give interesting time differences as well - as seen in Giro and Vuelta - or that editions in the past have seen enough jersey changes without time bonuses)

Also, I believe that if you have an "Ardennes-finish" 2 days in the race, that'll do the trick as well of changing the yellow jersey around on it's own.
Follow that up with a "tiny Paris-Roubaix" stage, there is again chance it'll change
(Purely because of stage choices)


----------



## Hont (24 Oct 2014)

The Couch said:


> I was more commenting on the (lack of?) defining of the rules behind this change.


It is getting quite gimicky isn't it?

Can't wait for the unicycle stage in 2016.


----------



## Hont (24 Oct 2014)

The Couch said:


> Has anybody has done the math yet what the result would have been this year with next year's point system?



Er...I have. 

Unsurprisingly it would have made very little difference. Depending on which stages they would have called definite sprint stages and awarded the different points tally (I did it for stages 1,3,4,6,12,15,21) I get the following final totals for the top four:

Sagan 386 (-45)
Kristoff 265 (-17)
Kittel 238 (+16)
Cocquard 225 (-46)

So the only change in order is that Kittel leapfrogs Cocquard for third place. Sagan is still miles ahead and did not lose as many points as Cocquard.

It looks like one of those rule changes that no-one really thought through (like when F1 doubled the points for each position thinking it would reward the winner more). If the object is to stop it being a Sagan walkover, on this year's evidence, it won't work.


----------



## rich p (24 Oct 2014)

Hont said:


> Er...I have.
> 
> Unsurprisingly it would have made very little difference. Depending on which stages they would have called definite sprint stages and awarded the different points tally (I did it for stages 1,3,4,6,12,15,21) I get the following final totals for the top four:
> 
> ...


Good work!


----------



## The Couch (24 Oct 2014)

Hont said:


> Er...I have.
> 
> Unsurprisingly it would have made very little difference. Depending on which stages they would have called definite sprint stages and awarded the different points tally (I did it for stages 1,3,4,6,12,15,21) I get the following final totals for the top four:
> 
> ...


That's what I had thought... still would have thought that it would have brought them closer together than that

The only 2 ways I see is 

they could take out the intermediate points of the Green jersey (and make that a side competition), but they ain't gonna do that (for money, spectacle, ... and whatever other reasons they make up)
make it a flat-sprinter preferred Tour (so lots of flat sprint stages and keep the cobbelstone/Ardennes/Medium-mountain stages to a minimum or at least behind a bunch of flat sprints, so the green jersey wearer is motivated to protect it against the all-rounder sprinters)
Personally I don't have an issue that the Points jersey doesn't end up with the "fastest sprinter", but with the more all-round type of riders
There'll be years that the Tour route will be more like described in point 2 or even (a) year(s) where Sagan will get unlucky as well and will fall out of the race.

Already him riding with Tinkoff will make a big difference I believe (vs. the Cannondale years)... can't see that team riding as much for him when they have true GC-candidate in their midst that they'll have to ride for in the high mountains as well.
But with Kristoff (and Bouhanni) getting better each year, of course they might be interested in giving the Green a go to


----------



## w00hoo_kent (24 Oct 2014)

Dogtrousers said:


> As @rich p says, I can't imagine Sky (the sponsors, not the team) want to be paying £££ for a team to pull its star (ahem ... sorry, its _*co-*_star  ) rider out from the annual premier event that has by far the biggest coverage and public interest.


Not a thing. Sky spend a ridiculously small amount of their marketing budget on the whole of their cycling interests. They really have much bigger things to bother about.


----------



## Hont (24 Oct 2014)

Since I'd put the spreadsheet together it was no more than a couple of minutes work to do the same for 2013. Cav would have lost to Sagan by 74 points instead of 97.


----------



## Hont (24 Oct 2014)

w00hoo_kent said:


> Not a thing. Sky spend a ridiculously small amount of their marketing budget on the whole of their cycling interests. They really have much bigger things to bother about.


That doesn't mean they quite happy to flush £15m (?) down the toilet. If you're not getting exposure for your sponsorship expenditure, there's no point in doing it. And they're not the only sponsors of the cycling team.


----------



## woohoo (24 Oct 2014)

w00hoo_kent said:


> Not a thing. Sky spend a ridiculously small amount of their marketing budget on the whole of their cycling interests. They really have much bigger things to bother about.


+1 re budget. IIRC, it was 0.5% of their total marketing budget a couple of years ago. Also, IIRC, Sky (the TV/media company) is making a major push into the Italian market in 2015, so a bit of high profile exposure on the Giro would be beneficial.


----------



## w00hoo_kent (24 Oct 2014)

Agreed, £15m doesn't look so much when the budget is 1 billion. It's a bit like worrying whether to buy a snickers, or a snickers duo at lunch time. The feeling I got at one of the talks at the bike show was that they're willing to do quite a bit of experimenting to see what works there.


----------



## Dogtrousers (25 Oct 2014)

Jeez if they're that uncaring about their money, they could sponsor me. I'd wear Sky kit for only a few thou. And I guarantee I wouldn't lose any races.


----------



## montage (27 Oct 2014)

The thing is - Froome actually pulled back time on the steeper climbs in the Vuelta, and lost it on the not so steep ones. Same in the 2013 TDF, he blew the race apart on the earlier steeper climbs, and suffered to the more explosive climbers on the less steep ones (ish) towards the end. He has also has a great kick at the end of a long climb. I don't understand what all the fuss is about.


----------



## SWSteve (27 Oct 2014)

http://www.cyclingnews.com/blogs/ro...our-de-france-he-needs-to-change-his-approach

Someone may have already left this here...


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (27 Oct 2014)

Should we maybe have 2 separate threads for every new topic - one SKY free and another to discuss a team that won't win much


----------



## SWSteve (27 Oct 2014)

Marmion said:


> Should we maybe have 2 separate threads for every new topic - one SKY free and another to discuss a team that won't win much



BMC?


----------



## Hont (28 Oct 2014)

montage said:


> Froome...suffered to the more explosive climbers on the less steep ones (ish) towards the end.


Towards the end he may have had less blood in his system than others. 



montage said:


> I don't understand what all the fuss is about.



You have a point but if you're the best TTer out of the GC contenders, you're going to want long TTs in the route.


----------



## Hont (28 Oct 2014)

The Couch said:


> Personally I don't have an issue that the Points jersey doesn't end up with the "fastest sprinter", but with the more all-round type of riders


Nor me. The sprinters get enough glory with the stage wins, when they're only in the wind for 250 metres. However I can see that the ASO might not want to have the polka dot jersey go to someone who is not the best climber* AND the green jersey go to someone who doesn't win a stage.

*Quintana aside when was the last time the dots went to the meilleur grimpeur? Chiapucci?


----------



## smutchin (28 Oct 2014)

I am totally in favour of them doing everything in their power to stop Pierre Rolland getting the KOM jersey.


----------



## Berk on a Bike (29 Oct 2014)

Let's face it, who wouldn't want to wear a maillot jaune with a cock on it...?







Well, technically, two cocks including the manufacturer's logo


----------



## The Couch (29 Oct 2014)

Hont said:


> ...I can see that the ASO might not want to have the polka dot jersey go to someone who is not the best climber* AND the green jersey go to someone who doesn't win a stage.


Without actually Google-ing it...I believe probably the same might apply to the Yellow jersey
Hasn't it (or making it a bit more broad, the leader jersey in one of the 3 GTs) been won without winning any stages either? So someone wins a Grand Tour, but never crossed the line first  (I believe one of the biggest struggles for the "newbies" who start watching pro-cycling)


Hont said:


> *Quintana aside when was the last time the dots went to the meilleur grimpeur? Chiapucci?





smutchin said:


> I am totally in favour of them doing everything in their power to stop Pierre Rolland getting the KOM jersey.


Still...most of the time the ones going for the KOM jersey make it an interesting spectacle (e.g. *Winky* Majka ) and probably in many instances they do manage to win one of the climbing stages as well.
But of course I do agree, the KOM jersey wearer mostly ain't the best climber either indeed


----------



## smutchin (29 Oct 2014)

The Couch said:


> Hasn't it (or making it a bit more broad, the leader jersey in one of the 3 GTs) been won without winning any stages either?



Classic pub quiz question. Firmin Lambot is the answer.

Actually, I just looked it up and there have been a few more (can't believe I forgot Lemond). Roger Walkowiak in 1956 is apparently the only TdF winner to have never won a stage...



> His name entered the French language in the phrase "à la Walko", which means "won by an undeserving or unknown rider".



I don't recall Ryder Hesjedal winning a stage when he won the Giro but I checked and of course Garmin won the TTT. Does that count? Was Ryder the first Garmin rider across the line?


----------



## The Couch (29 Oct 2014)

smutchin said:


> I don't recall Ryder Hesjedal winning a stage when he won the Giro but I checked and of course Garmin won the TTT. Does that count? Was Ryder the first Garmin rider across the line?


Does that count... not really 
(although to be fair at least he was most likely one of the driving forces in the team, unlike TTT where the GT rider doesn't have to do anything)

Was he the first rider to cross the line... no (but it wouldn't have made a difference to me anyway )


----------



## rich p (29 Oct 2014)

Didn't Armstrong win once only winning a TT?
Maybe Wiggo too?
I appreciate that TTs are stage wins but...


----------



## raindog (29 Oct 2014)

Surely Indurain won his Tours with TT wins only?
Not got time to look it up.....


----------



## zimzum42 (29 Oct 2014)

raindog said:


> Surely Indurain won his Tours with TT wins only?
> Not got time to look it up.....


He generally had the grace to allow someone else to win mountain stages that he had essentially won. One of the reasons he remains my favourite rider


----------



## The Couch (29 Oct 2014)

rich p said:


> Didn't Armstrong win once only winning a TT?
> Maybe Wiggo too?
> I appreciate that TTs are stage wins but...


A timetrial win is a personal win, so for me that counts definitely as a stage win
A team time trail isn't really a personal win, putting e.g. put Andy Schleck together with Martin, Wiggo, Phinney, Froome, Dennis and Kwiatkowski they'll most likely win the (long) TTT, but I wouldn't count it as a stage win for Schleck

Anyway, sorry for the diversion of the topic


----------



## rich p (29 Oct 2014)

The Couch said:


> Anyway, sorry for the diversion of the topic


It's the silly season, so divert away till TdU or San Luis!


----------



## smutchin (29 Oct 2014)

The Couch said:


> A team time trail isn't really a personal win, putting e.g. put Andy Schleck together with Martin, Wiggo, Phinney, Froome, Dennis and Kwiatkowski they'll most likely win the (long) TTT



Do you think so? Surely they'd shell Andy out the back within a few km.


----------



## smutchin (29 Oct 2014)

raindog said:


> Surely Indurain won his Tours with TT wins only?
> Not got time to look it up.....



Yes, Indurain never won a road race stage of the TdF. Quite a few near misses though...


View: http://youtu.be/_pD1e605x80



View: http://youtu.be/gAx5JVW7iis


Goes uphill rather quickly for such a big unit, doesn't he?


----------



## zimzum42 (29 Oct 2014)

smutchin said:


> Goes uphill rather quickly for such a big unit, doesn't he?


Indeed, those massive lungs and that massive heart helped!

I doubt very much Mig wasn't juiced, everyone was back then - but it's interesting comparing Mig to other recent multiple Tour winners. He always kept to himself and never made a big fuss about himself, and virtually no one ever talks about him doping. Now, compare that to LA...

Massive respect for the dude, still my favourite champion, no ego whatsoever...


----------



## briantrumpet (29 Oct 2014)

Damn, damn, damn. Going through my playground on Stage 16, and I'm working that day. Darn those pesky kids. But looks like a nice bit of activity down in that bottom right-hand corner. http://unanglaisendiois.blogspot.co.uk/2014/10/tour-de-france-2015.html


----------



## gavroche (29 Oct 2014)

Flick of the Elbow said:


> The Giro's a much classier race than the Tour, it would be great to see Froome winning it. I'm not at all bothered that he's missing the Tour.


That maybe but the TdF has more prestige and is the most yearly sport watched on tv worldwide.


----------



## Hont (30 Oct 2014)

zimzum42 said:


> I doubt very much Mig wasn't juiced, everyone was back then - but it's interesting comparing Mig to other recent multiple Tour winners. He always kept to himself and never made a big fuss about himself, and virtually no one ever talks about him doping. Now, compare that to LA...



I agree he did appear to be a classy guy, but if you're a doper, you're a doper. What kind of guy he was doesn't alter the fact that he cheated.


----------



## Hont (30 Oct 2014)

smutchin said:


> Yes, Indurain never won a road race stage of the TdF. Quite a few near misses though...



Are you sure? I remember him sucking LeMond's wheel all the way up Luz Ardiden before popping past for the stage win. That would have been in 1990. I need to check that, because I don't remember anyone being up the road (but it was a long time ago).

Edit. Phew my memory is fine. Stage 16. And he also won Stage 9 the year before too, but I don't remember anything about that (despite owning the DVD) - so maybe my memory's not fine.

I think the stat is that he didn't win any road stages during the five Tours that he won.


----------



## zimzum42 (30 Oct 2014)

Hont said:


> I agree he did appear to be a classy guy, but if you're a doper, you're a doper. What kind of guy he was doesn't alter the fact that he cheated.


I'm not suggesting it does, or should. But it does affect the way people treat him. If Lance hadn't been such an egomaniac he might still have a few jerseys on the wall...


----------



## Dogtrousers (30 Oct 2014)

I may try and get over and find a spot to watch a bit of the Livarot - Fougères stage. I note that they've done a dog leg on this route, avoiding the Suisse Normande. What a bunch of wusses, are they afraid of a few hills?


----------



## smutchin (30 Oct 2014)

Hont said:


> Are you sure? I remember him sucking LeMond's wheel all the way up Luz Ardiden before popping past for the stage win. That would have been in 1990. I need to check that, because I don't remember anyone being up the road (but it was a long time ago).
> 
> Edit. Phew my memory is fine. Stage 16. And he also won Stage 9 the year before too, but I don't remember anything about that (despite owning the DVD) - so maybe my memory's not fine.
> 
> I think the stat is that he didn't win any road stages during the five Tours that he won.



Well remembered!


----------



## Hont (30 Oct 2014)

zimzum42 said:


> If Lance hadn't been such an egomaniac he might still have a few jerseys on the wall...


Well I certainly agree with that. I'm not sure that it's right, though.


----------



## Hont (30 Oct 2014)

smutchin said:


> Well remembered!


 

It stuck in my mind because all the Basques where giving Indurain water and doing everything they could to help him whilst he sucked LeMond's wheel. Yet all anyone ever says about that Tour was that LeMond didn't win a stage. IMO he was robbed of one.

But this is getting very OT now.


----------



## zimzum42 (30 Oct 2014)

Hont said:


> It stuck in my mind because all the Basques where giving Indurain water and doing everything they could to help him whilst he sucked LeMond's wheel. Yet all anyone ever says about that Tour was that LeMond didn't win a stage. IMO he was robbed of one.
> 
> But this is getting very OT now.


Mig more than made up for it by allowing random breakaway riders suck his wheel to the top and claim the victory! Can't knock the man!


----------



## rich p (2 Dec 2014)

rich p said:


> Exactly. Nobody with a realistic chance unless Porte or Henau step up a notch or two. I can't see Froome missing the Tour for a reserve team race like the Giro. (tongue in cheek)
> The sponsors will surely want Froome at the biggest televised race of the year.





Delftse Post said:


> He's just keeping Bertie et al. on their toes! I'd be amazed if he isn't in Utrecht.



It looks like we were right then!

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/froome-confirms-he-will-target-the-2015-tour-de-france


----------



## Berk on a Bike (6 Mar 2015)

Quick thread bump. ASO have announced that time bonuses will apply to all road stages not just the openers. http://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme-sur-route/Actualites/Les-bonifs-temps-de-retour/541079


----------

