# Mickle Method with Dry Lube?



## EasyPeez (17 Mar 2015)

Hi,

First off apologies - I realise I've posted a few threads on here over the past weeks about various aspects of bike cleaning, and I realise that these are rather dull, and are making me seem a bit OCD! But the answers have been very helpful and I now have my required products all bought and my cleaning regime all sorted....except for one thing...

I like a pristine bike, but realise that the most important thing is to keep it well lubed and working properly. So while I would love a shiny chain to match the rest of my shiny bike, I'm happy to sacrifice that for a less-shiny but better lubed and maintained chain. So, my plan was to use the Mickle method. But as I only ride my summer bike in the dry I want to use dry ceramic lube and I'm not sure this is compatible with 'the method'.

Also, I have been reliably informed by a seemingly very knowledgeable poster or two on another thread that to use dry lube you must first remove the chain and rid it of all factory lube with white spirit, then dry it out. If not the factory lube will prevent the dry lube adhering. This seems to make sense. But when I put this to my LBS mechanic as my chosen plan at the weekend he was horrified. He said he would never use degreaser on a chain, white spirit, Muc-Off, Fenwick's GT85 or otherwise, and esp not clean out the factory lube as this will have penetrated deep into the rollers in a way that the dry lube I'll be adding won't do. His advice was just to wait until the chain needs lubing, then give it a good wipe over with a rag and add dry lube. Then repeat the wipe and lube at regular intervals.

So now I'm all confused and would appreciate answers to any or all of the following -
1) Is dry lube compatible with the method?
2) Do I need to strip the chain of all existing lube by soaking it in white spirit before I can use dry lube?
3) Is it still ok to clean the cassette and chainrings with a bit of GT85, then rinse it off and clean/dry it with a rag while using the method, so long as GT85 and water stay off the chain?
3) Is there a way of cleaning out the chain (the bits of dirt that get between the pins) when using the method? As it doesn't seem possible to clean between the pins by wiping with the rag alone. I normally like to use a chainbrush (http://www.evanscycles.com/products...gclid=CN3kk8vCr8QCFQQFwwod5LMANA&gclsrc=aw.ds) to get between the pins but don't want to undermine what I'm trying to achieve by mickling, or my brush to get covered in sticky lube and gunk.


Thanks. And I promise after this I will never trouble these boards with a bike-cleaning post ever again!
Andy


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## Yellow Saddle (17 Mar 2015)

EasyPeez said:


> Hi,
> 
> First off apologies - I realise I've posted a few threads on here over the past weeks about various aspects of bike cleaning, and I realise that these are rather dull, and are making me seem a bit OCD! But the answers have been very helpful and I now have my required products all bought and my cleaning regime all sorted....except for one thing...
> 
> ...


Don't apologise but do fire your bike mechanic. He is misleading you and sadly, out of ignorance.

The grease on the new chain is a good and sufficient lubricant. However, lubricant, once contaminated, has to be washed out completely and replaced with fresh, grit-free lubricant. The best lubricant for this job is of the flowing variety (i.e. not grease) and not too thin nor too thick. It is easy to find the right consistency by experimenting. Try different motor oils (yes, standard engine oil is perfect) until you find one that neither leaves splatter on your rear rim (too thin), nor little honey-treacle trails (too thick).

Lubricant gets inside the chain by capillary action and it does so very, very quickly. One revolution of the crank and the insides are saturated with oil. It is impossible to prevent oil going inside because of this fluid force. Grease is too thick to get sucked in by capillary action and gets injected at the factory under pressure or melted. You can't replicate that at home.

Lots of people watch too many hair product adverts on TV and then equate chains with hair. Unlike hair (so I'm told) it is desirable to completely strip a chain of all contaminated oil before re-lubricating. The cloth wipe story is merely cosmetic too. The grit that's inside the chain and doing harm isn't scared of a little wipey cloth on the outside.


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## palinurus (17 Mar 2015)

I Mickled during a short period of using dry lube, worked fine. I stopped using dry lube because of poor wet weather performance (it was summer use, but it rained enough to make me reconsider), I'd use it if I lived in California. I degreased the chain beforehand based on LBS and manufacturer advice but I don't know whether this was necessary.

I'm somewhat suspicious of this idea that there's some special lube deep inside the chain that must never be washed out.


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## EasyPeez (17 Mar 2015)

Yellow Saddle said:


> Don't apologise but do fire your bike mechanic. He is misleading you and sadly, out of ignorance.


Thanks for putting me straight. I value your input based on advice offered in other threads; you obv have far more understanding of the science and experience with bike maintenance than I do, so it's good to be able to learn from that.



Yellow Saddle said:


> The best lubricant for this job is of the flowing variety (i.e. not grease) and not too thin nor too thick. It is easy to find the right consistency by experimenting. Try different motor oils (yes, standard engine oil is perfect) until you find one that neither leaves splatter on your rear rim (too thin), nor little honey-treacle trails (too thick).


I've just shelled out for some ceramic dry lube - it is (or so it seems to me) flowing, but not too thin or too thick, as you describe - would you discount that? I'm not keen to go to the expense of buying a variety of motor oils, some of which I'll then have no need of again, if I can avoid it. 



Yellow Saddle said:


> Unlike hair (so I'm told) it is desirable to completely strip a chain of all contaminated oil before re-lubricating. The cloth wipe story is merely cosmetic too. The grit that's inside the chain and doing harm isn't scared of a little wipey cloth on the outside.


So in essence, you'd back the idea of thoroughly degreasing the chain once the factory lube has started to wear off/become contaminated with muck? And from your quote I assume you don't rate the Mickle method at all, and would recommend a periodical full de-grease, dry, and re-lube as part of the maintenance routine? Or have I misunderstood you?
Thanks, Andy


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## EasyPeez (17 Mar 2015)

palinurus said:


> I degreased the chain beforehand based on LBS and manufacturer advice


Thanks for your feedback. 
There is no advice with my dry lube about degreasing the chain first, and I find it hard to imagine most people who buy the stuff would properly degrease a chain before using it. But then maybe I'm being naive. Or maybe lots of people are doing it wrong! Anyway, based on your post and Yellow Saddle's it seems a full degrease isn't such an unlikely proposition so maybe that is the way to go, followed by Mickling day-to-day to keep the rot away and a periodical full degrease and re-lube. Thanks.


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## vickster (17 Mar 2015)

@mickle


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## Yellow Saddle (17 Mar 2015)

EasyPeez said:


> I've just shelled out for some ceramic dry lube - it is (or so it seems to me) flowing, but not too thin or too thick, as you describe - would you discount that? I'm not keen to go to the expense of buying a variety of motor oils, some of which I'll then have no need of again, if I can avoid it.


I have no idea what ceramic lube is. The word "dry" also worries me. Like I said, the best oil is motor oils. Fortunately this is free. Simply go dumpster diving at a garage and you'll find lots of oil cans there with enough oil in to keep you going for a long time. No-one has time at a garage to wait until all the oil has drained from the little top-up bottles we buy when topping up. Hence the free oil.

Nevertheless, if your ceramic oil is within the two parameters I listed initially (splatter versus honey trails), then it is fine. It is oil, isn't it? Not just some solvent with a bit of oily residue in it?



EasyPeez said:


> So in essence, you'd back the idea of thoroughly degreasing the chain once the factory lube has started to wear off/become contaminated with muck? And from your quote I assume you don't rate the Mickle method at all, and would recommend a periodical full de-grease, dry, and re-lube as part of the maintenance routine? Or have I misunderstood you?
> Thanks, Andy


Yes, degrease it because that's the only way you'll get the grit out. Even oiling your chain between washes is bad for it since it only helps the surface grit to get inside. However, we can't always degrease nor do we exactly love the job, so re-oil only in emergencies and degrease and re-lube as a matter of course.

I have no idea what the Mickle method is.


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## mjr (17 Mar 2015)

I've messed around with various things. I'll not use motor oil on the chain again. Inside the gears, OK, but on a chain it picks up muck like a muck-magnet: crickle crackle.

I'm also in no hurry to bathe a chain in degreaser again - I think some must lurk inside where the sun don't shine because the wear went through the roof afterwards. I'm currently back to my old regimen of applying a little intermediate basic lube (TF2 liquid lately), wiping off anything it flushes out, then letting it dry before riding. So:


EasyPeez said:


> 1) Is dry lube compatible with the method?
> 2) Do I need to strip the chain of all existing lube by soaking it in white spirit before I can use dry lube?
> 3) Is it still ok to clean the cassette and chainrings with a bit of GT85, then rinse it off and clean/dry it with a rag while using the method, so long as GT85 and water stay off the chain?
> 3) Is there a way of cleaning out the chain (the bits of dirt that get between the pins) when using the method?


1) Yes AFAIK
2) No, not unless you're switching between completely incompatible lubes (usually wax and anything else)
3) Yes I think so.
3) Yes, apply lube to the inside of the bottom run and let it rinse through.

IMO. Your chains remain yours.


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## Davidc (17 Mar 2015)

To see what dry and wet lube actually mean look at the Finish Line specs (on the web).

I use their dry lube all year and it's excellent, I Mickle the chain once the original stuff gets dirty and the dry lube does the job, usually with 3 applications though it's at least 4 sometimes 5 first time.

Wet lube works better, in my not very humble experience, for many other parts of the bike.

As above - engine oil is also a fine lubricant for transmissions on bikes.

Watch out though, even thinking about WD40 will make your chain go rusty. Stick to GT85 if you must use one of those products.

The previous post is good advice (IMNVHO)


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## mickle (17 Mar 2015)

Lordy. I don't get paid for this you know.

:-)


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## mickle (17 Mar 2015)

'oil' is not oil is not chain lube. Just as floor wax and surfboard wax and beeswax and ear wax are not candle wax. They're formulated differently for different applications. Basil infused extra virgin is also oil but has limited use as a chain lube. Car engine oil is not suitable for bicycle chains.


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## mickle (17 Mar 2015)

Chain decreasing is for losers.


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## Kestevan (18 Mar 2015)

I use a properly "dry" lube on the summer bike (Muc Off C3 Ceramic) as I find it works well (with caveats - see below) and keeps the chain/cassette sparkling clean.
It's not oil... It's a liquid solvent carrier with a ceramic "wax". the solvent penetrates the rollers then evaporates and leaves behind the waxy coating.

I've found that it works best if the chain is cleaned and de-greased before initial application. I generally spray the chain with brake/clutch cleaner before use and allow it to dry out. Then apply several coats of C3, allowing each one to dry out for a few hours (or overnight).

Once lubed the chain feels slippy, but has no oily residue. It runs completely cleanly and doesn't pick up the black gunk/grinding paste an oil based lube generates. The chain, cassette and jockey wheels stay new looking and shiny and chain wear rates are no worse than using oil. Then all that's needed is a quick re-lube every week or so, as a bonus, as there's no gunk the weekly cleaning is a simple wipe with a dry cloth and re-apply.

However (there's always a however), it only works when it's not raining..... rain washes out the lube very quickly and leaves the chain with little protection.
Oh and the stuff is stupidly expensive.... although a small bottle does last for ages as you need very little.


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## Yellow Saddle (18 Mar 2015)

Kestevan said:


> I use a properly "dry" lube on the summer bike (Muc Off C3 Ceramic) as I find it works well (with caveats - see below) and keeps the chain/cassette sparkling clean.
> It's not oil... It's a liquid solvent carrier with a ceramic "wax". the solvent penetrates the rollers then evaporates and leaves behind the waxy coating.



I avoid the term "dry lube" because it has no firm definition. It could be graphite, molybdenum disulphide, boron nitride, PTFE (Teflon) or even wax. All these substances are solids an thus technically dry. A solid lubrication inside a chain has very limited life because once it has been displaced between two surfaces it has to means of flowing back. Any solid in a volatile carrier suffers from that problem. It simply will not lubricate a chain as long as an oil. Oil flows back between pressure "incidents". We know this because it carries with it black steel residue and the fact that the oil turns black tells us that it is being recycled and pumped throughout the chain's tension and slack runs. Wax for instance doesn't turn black because the steel particles remain a the surface where they come from and never disperses into the rest of the lubricant.

However, I cannot ignore the term "dry" because it is so prevalent in bicycle lore. I prefer the term solid lubricant. This could also include the solvent-based waxes described by you that are technically liquid when applied but solid once the carrier has evaporated. All these suffer from longevity, as I described. Obviously this is not a problem if your re-lube intervals are short. How short? It depends on how solid the lubricant is. Wax allows metal to slide on metal within 10 kilometers or so. This is easy to observe since the chain makes a different sound as soon as the wax is displaced from the pressure faces inside the chain. A trained ear can quickly pick up that point.



Kestevan said:


> I've found that it works best if the chain is cleaned and de-greased before initial application. I generally spray the chain with brake/clutch cleaner before use and allow it to dry out. Then apply several coats of C3, allowing each one to dry out for a few hours (or overnight).



It goes without saying that lubricating a clean chain makes infinitely more sense than re-lubricating a dirty chain, but so many people never thing about it that it is perhaps worth repeating. The oil in a chain has no filtering mechanism and grip just builds up inside the old lubricant. Wash out all the old stuff and replace. Do this as often as your patience, available time and budget allows.

Applying several coats is unnecessary since extra lubricant serves no purpose. A solid lubricant is quickly pressed out of the interface and having more of it floating around doesn't help. It can't flow back and will only irritate you by settling in thick globs on your derailer pulleys.



Kestevan said:


> Once lubed the chain feels slippy, but has no oily residue. It runs completely cleanly and doesn't pick up the black gunk/grinding paste an oil based lube generates. The chain, cassette and jockey wheels stay new looking and shiny and chain wear rates are no worse than using oil. Then all that's needed is a quick re-lube every week or so, as a bonus, as there's no gunk the weekly cleaning is a simple wipe with a dry cloth and re-apply.



I have explained why it runs clean. Because it is a bad lubricant. Oil does not generate black substances, the chain and sprockets do and you want to move that away from the interface and dilute it in the oil. Wax concentrates it at the point of generation. Re-lubing makes no sense, as I've explained. Saying there is no gunk is disingenuous. Where does the wax go then? It certainly cannot be wiped off. It has to be scraped off.



Kestevan said:


> However (there's always a however), it only works when it's not raining..... rain washes out the lube very quickly and leaves the chain with little protection.
> Oh and the stuff is stupidly expensive.... although a small bottle does last for ages as you need very little.



Water is a better lubricant than depleted wax. A clean chain will not squeak when ridden in the wet but as soon as it dries out, a dozen chirping birds emerge.

Stupid expensive. Collectively and separately these words ring true. I rest my case.


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## gbb (18 Mar 2015)

Yellow Saddle said:


> I have no idea what ceramic lube is. The word "dry" also worries me. Like I said, the best oil is motor oils. Fortunately this is free. Simply go dumpster diving at a garage and you'll find lots of oil cans there with enough oil in to keep you going for a long time. No-one has time at a garage to wait until all the oil has drained from the little top-up bottles we buy when topping up. Hence the free oil.
> 
> Nevertheless, if your ceramic oil is within the two parameters I listed initially (splatter versus honey trails), then it is fine. It is oil, isn't it? Not just some solvent with a bit of oily residue in it?
> 
> ...


 
Dry lube is simply lubricant that is used in dry conditions, it will wash out quickly in wet conditions.
I used to use motor oil, very good, cheap lubricant, cheaper than any special products, but as you say, this can and does lead to spatter on the rims however well you wipe the chain. Modern motor oils are thin, this makes it worse. Perhaps an older grade oil would be better. 

Regarding the grit Eezy...i wouldnt get too obsessed with it.
When i was commuting, i was fortunate enough to store my bike in my workshop. This left various bits of the day to keep the bike clean etc ect. on a weekly basis, sometimes more often I used to remove chain, wipe clean, lay on a bench and blast all the dirt out of the chain with a HP airline, you'd be amazed how much comes out, and keeps coming out. Once clean, i'd lay it in an oil bath for half an hour, then hang on a nail to drip excess off, then wipe wipe wipe and fit back to the bike.
Sounds like a faff and it would be at home, but i was at work and each operation only takes a few minutes so no loss to me.
I had a lovely clean, well oiled chain.....did it last any longer than just oiling and wiping...no, it didnt make a jot of real difference (i'm a bit sad like that, i used to record whaich make chain (tried em all), and what mileage i got out of it. No difference whatsoever in my experience.


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## palinurus (18 Mar 2015)

mickle said:


> Basil infused extra virgin is also oil but has limited use as a chain lube..


 
Quite right, volatiles in the basil reduce the viscosity of the oil. I use an unadulterated single-estate Tuscan oil on my Colnago.


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## Panter (18 Mar 2015)

In my humble opinion, you're over-thinking it. 
Wipe chain with rag, slap some lube on, wipe again with rag, enjoy bike!


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## Pale Rider (18 Mar 2015)

@EasyPeez 

You like a clean, shiny chain, and are prepared to spend some time and a little money to achieve this.

So use nothing other than GT85 and a rag after every ride.

I don't claim this will make the chain last the longest time, but that's not what you are after.

It will give you a shiny chain that runs smoothly and silently.

At worst, the chain may wear out slightly faster than using other methods.

But I have no evidence of that, my chains last OK and in any case they are a consumable item and not expensive.

I also wash the cassette with wash'n'wax car wash solution, so that's nice and shiny as well.


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## Cuchilo (18 Mar 2015)

I just run the chain through a baby wipe , add dry lube and then run through a baby wipe again . If the chain is really dirty I use more baby wipes and do it a few times .


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## EasyPeez (19 Mar 2015)

Well, if I was confused before I asked the questions....!
I guess from the diverse responses this is one where there is no definitive solution, but where different cyclists have different opinions/systems/preferences.


Panter said:


> In my humble opinion, you're over-thinking it


I'm coming to that conclusion myself now! And after all, the chain is a cheap and relatively short-lived component anyway so it's not worth worrying about much in itself. But I guess I'm just keen to preserve my cassette and more especially chainrings as long as poss, and for the whole drivechain to look, feel, and sound spot on when zipping along.


Pale Rider said:


> So use nothing other than GT85 and a rag after every ride


That's all you use?! No wet or dry lube at all? It sounds beautifully simple, but I'm surprised it offers enough lubrication for a decent day's ride. Have you had no probs with cassette/chainring wear?



mjray said:


> 2) No, not unless you're switching between completely incompatible lubes (usually wax and anything else)


I think the factory lube and the ceramic Muc Off lube I have prob are incompatible? So I prob should degrease first.


mjray said:


> 3) Yes, apply lube to the inside of the bottom run and let it rinse through


Why didn't I think of that?! Thanks 



gbb said:


> When i was commuting, i was fortunate enough to store my bike in my workshop. This left various bits of the day to keep the bike clean etc ect. on a weekly basis, sometimes more often I used to remove chain, wipe clean, lay on a bench and blast all the dirt out of the chain with a HP airline, you'd be amazed how much comes out, and keeps coming out. Once clean, i'd lay it in an oil bath for half an hour, then hang on a nail to drip excess off, then wipe wipe wipe and fit back to the bike.
> Sounds like a faff and it would be at home, but i was at work and each operation only takes a few minutes so no loss to me.
> I had a lovely clean, well oiled chain.....did it last any longer than just oiling and wiping...no, it didnt make a jot of real difference (i'm a bit sad like that, i used to record whaich make chain (tried em all), and what mileage i got out of it. No difference whatsoever in my experience


That sounds like a fantastic routine for someone of my OCD tendencies - i'd love to be able to do that! It's been suggested by some of our staff that we should have a shower room on site so I might push for the boss to get an airline and oil bath installed too 
Interesting (and I guess reassuring) to hear that none of this improved your chain life though. Maybe we're all getting too hung up about these differences in regimes.


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## EasyPeez (19 Mar 2015)

Kestevan said:


> I use a properly "dry" lube on the summer bike (Muc Off C3 Ceramic) as I find it works well (with caveats - see below) and keeps the chain/cassette sparkling clean.
> It's not oil... It's a liquid solvent carrier with a ceramic "wax". the solvent penetrates the rollers then evaporates and leaves behind the waxy coating.
> 
> I've found that it works best if the chain is cleaned and de-greased before initial application. I generally spray the chain with brake/clutch cleaner before use and allow it to dry out. Then apply several coats of C3, allowing each one to dry out for a few hours (or overnight).
> ...



That's the same lube I've bought, @Kestevan and your application and maintenance regime is exactly what I was hoping to follow myself. Sounds like it's working for you, and as I won't be riding this bike in the wet the 'however' poses no worries for me. I am sorely tempted to follow your lead. And surely these products must have been developed through lots of research and testing, so should work well if used as directed?


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## EasyPeez (19 Mar 2015)

Yellow Saddle said:


> Oil flows back between pressure "incidents". We know this because it carries with it black steel residue and the fact that the oil turns black tells us that it is being recycled and pumped throughout the chain's tension and slack runs. Wax for instance doesn't turn black because the steel particles remain a the surface where they come from and never disperses into the rest of the lubricant.
> 
> However, I cannot ignore the term "dry" because it is so prevalent in bicycle lore. I prefer the term solid lubricant. This could also include the solvent-based waxes described by you that are technically liquid when applied but solid once the carrier has evaporated. All these suffer from longevity, as I described. Obviously this is not a problem if your re-lube intervals are short. How short? It depends on how solid the lubricant is. Wax allows metal to slide on metal within 10 kilometers or so. This is easy to observe since the chain makes a different sound as soon as the wax is displaced from the pressure faces inside the chain. A trained ear can quickly pick up that point.


But then this seems to make a lot of sense. I'd never thought that oil turns black because of the residues that it moves out of the chain rather than just because of the gunk it collects from the road. 
@Yellow Saddle - the claims in the description here seem at odds with your assessment of dry/solid lubes - https://muc-off.com/lube/179-c3-dry-ceramic-lube.html

I'm not even sure if this C3 Ceramic stuff counts as a wax or not. I don't mind frequent re-lubes but 10km is just stupid, as you imply yourself. I can't find a full list of constituent ingredients anywhere but it mentions Flouro polymers and Boron Nitride. Looking that that would you say the claims of "reducing metal to metal contact to a groundbreaking low level" is just advertising bunkem? Or could this ceramic stuff be a better bet than wax and serve as well as oil but without the mess?


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## Pale Rider (20 Mar 2015)

EasyPeez said:


> That's all you use?! No wet or dry lube at all? It sounds beautifully simple, but I'm surprised it offers enough lubrication for a decent day's ride. Have you had no probs with cassette/chainring wear?



Yes, GT85 and a rag after every ride, although I sometimes dispense with the GT85 if I'm feeling mean.

The drivetrain runs smoothly and quietly, although it will sometimes become noisier towards the end of a longer ride.

No particular problems with chain or cassette wear.

I don't clam to do millions of miles, and those miles are split over three bikes.

Neither do I claim my method will eke out the last kilometre from a chain.

It's not designed to, it's designed to do a reasonable lube job while leaving the chain appearing clean and shiny - which is what you asked for.

I did run my lube method past my mate Chris the bike mechanic.

"Good as any," was his slightly world weary response to such a fresh and interesting question.

I think he liked the little and often approach as much as the method itself.


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## Yellow Saddle (20 Mar 2015)

EasyPeez said:


> But then this seems to make a lot of sense. I'd never thought that oil turns black because of the residues that it moves out of the chain rather than just because of the gunk it collects from the road.
> @Yellow Saddle - the claims in the description here seem at odds with your assessment of dry/solid lubes - https://muc-off.com/lube/179-c3-dry-ceramic-lube.html
> 
> I'm not even sure if this C3 Ceramic stuff counts as a wax or not. I don't mind frequent re-lubes but 10km is just stupid, as you imply yourself. I can't find a full list of constituent ingredients anywhere but it mentions Flouro polymers and Boron Nitride. Looking that that would you say the claims of "reducing metal to metal contact to a groundbreaking low level" is just advertising bunkem? Or could this ceramic stuff be a better bet than wax and serve as well as oil but without the mess?



It seems to me from reading the description, that the ceramic in this product (boron nitride) is used as an additive inside an oil base. It can of course be added to a solid, like was as well. Boron Nitride is a solid and it is used in powder form when used as a lubricant. LIke graphite, it has weak links between its crystalline planes which readily shear and shift over each other. On its own on a chain, it will quickly fall off and float away, hence the trick of trapping it in oil.

Will it improve the chain's performance? Yes, but only if it is used on a chain that can be kept perfectly clean, like in a crank case with filtered oil. On a bicycle the lowest common denominator is road grit and attempting to improve lubricity in such a miniscule way whilst you have relatively large and hard bits of silica (sand) floating around in the oil is useless.

Just like graphite and diamond which both have exactly the same components - carbon, boron nitrate also comes in two forms, cubic and hexagonal. The former is a hard abrasive substance, the latter used as a lubricant just like graphite. It is used instead of graphite where colour is important (it is white) and where electrical conductivity is undesirable. Graphite is conductive. It has its place in industry and it is cheap and therefore a great product to add to oil and boast about its space age properties and the fact that it is used in space and inside high temperature machines. However, that does not mean its application is valid on bicycle chains. Bicycle chains are low-tech devices which work equally well with just about any lubricant (including water and wax) but benefits from something that has longevity and can be cleaned out quite easily. The biggest benefit is cleanliness, not marginally improved lubricity.

This is all very anal and I don't blame people who just don't care. But I would argue that there is benefit in for them if only in saving money by not falling for the claims of expensive dedicated products.


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## gbb (20 Mar 2015)

Pale Rider said:


> Yes, GT85 and a rag after every ride, although I sometimes dispense with the GT85 if I'm feeling mean.
> 
> The drivetrain runs smoothly and quietly, although it will sometimes become noisier towards the end of a longer ride.
> 
> ...


 Assuming you can compare GT85 with WD40, they're much the same in use, but in actual properties...i don't know, but..
Having read the lengthy arguements re this and that, i prefer to make my own way and come to my own conclusions..So, some years ago i sprayed my chain almost daily with WD40, i had the most gloriously clean chain...*which did circa 700 miles before it was cream crackered*, instead of the 1200-1500 miles i normally get.

Like PaleRider, there is another member (apologies i can't remember who) who swears by WD40 and he avidly believes it works well. I'm not going to poo poo it...to do so is effectively calling that person a liar, just my experience (with logged chains and mileage achieved) is completely the opposite.

TBF, chain life isnt THAT important to me personally. 700 miles...i shrugged my shoulders and fitted a new chain. I consider them a consumable (which of course they are)...and would rather fit one too soon and protect more expensive components like the cassette etc. It was a worthwhile experiment (WD40)...i tried, but even the fact you're spraying the stuff daily isnt ideal from just an environmental perspective. Back to oil then for me at that time..


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## LouiseSJPP (20 Mar 2015)

What on earth is the Mickle method??

I've always been very unsure about how to clean and lube chains, and I'm an engineer! Having spent many years running an MTB every day over sandy moors and through a ford, which combination had the brake pads wear straight through the wheel rims, I settled on a quick and easy method, on the basis that quick and easy would get done. Use old cardboard behind chain wheels and chain, and underneath, spray copiously with good ol' WD40, spinning the pedals around, then apply a light oil on top. My hopes were, and still are, that the light WD40 will wash at least some crap away while not doing that nasty degreasing thing, and the light oil will then make it's way where it should. A light wipe with a cloth afterwards, bad in that it will force any surface grit back into the joints, but good because you need to not have excess oil on the chain for more crud to stick to. 

This seemed to work in that the chain and cassette lasted as well as I would have expected. I mention the cassette, @gbb because a worn chain takes the sprockets with it as the link length effectively increases. With an over-long link length, the chain's load all falls on the last sprocket tooth as it drags off it instead of being distributed over several and letting go gently.


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## Pale Rider (20 Mar 2015)

gbb said:


> Assuming you can compare GT85 with WD40,..



I believe there are relevant differences in their properties.

GT85 leaves some lubrication behind after it has evaporated - spray and wipe the frame with it and water 'beads' afterwards.

WD40 does not do that and, to me, feels almost sticky which is the last think you want on a chain.

Using only GT85 I an certainly doing a lot better than 700 miles from a chain.


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## Yellow Saddle (20 Mar 2015)

Errecaldia said:


> This seemed to work in that the chain and cassette lasted as well as I would have expected. I mention the cassette, @gbb because a worn chain takes the sprockets with it as the link length effectively increases. With an over-long link length, the chain's load all falls on the last sprocket tooth as it drags off it instead of being distributed over several and letting go gently.



"As well as I would have expected" is subjective and tells you absolutely nothing about your drivetrain's life. Also, an elongated (worn) chain will not even mesh with a good sprocket on a bicycle because it enters under slack rides on top (skates) rather than engage. Therefore, it does not have an effect on sprocket wear as you describe. It is different for a chainring though since the chain enters that in tension. (I use the term sprocket for the rear and chainring for the front to distinguish between the two).


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## gbb (20 Mar 2015)

Errecaldia said:


> What on earth is the Mickle method??
> 
> I've always been very unsure about how to clean and lube chains, and I'm an engineer! Having spent many years running an MTB every day over sandy moors and through a ford, which combination had the brake pads wear straight through the wheel rims, I settled on a quick and easy method, on the basis that quick and easy would get done. Use old cardboard behind chain wheels and chain, and underneath, spray copiously with good ol' WD40, spinning the pedals around, then apply a light oil on top. My hopes were, and still are, that the light WD40 will wash at least some crap away while not doing that nasty degreasing thing, and the light oil will then make it's way where it should. A light wipe with a cloth afterwards, bad in that it will force any surface grit back into the joints, but good because you need to not have excess oil on the chain for more crud to stick to.
> 
> This seemed to work in that the chain and cassette lasted as well as I would have expected. I mention the cassette, @gbb because a worn chain takes the sprockets with it as the link length effectively increases. With an over-long link length, the chain's load all falls on the last sprocket tooth as it drags off it instead of being distributed over several and letting go gently.


 
As an engineer myself, the truth is a chain is a consumable. Generally speaking, you can slightly shorten or lengthen the life of one, but would be hard pushed to make any discernable difference without some serious input from a maintenance point of view. 
This is a general observation Erreca (hope the shortening is ok) , not aimed at you...a chain costs what, £10, £15, maybe £20. How much effort do you have to put in to extend its life, it is to me a disposable item, something that benefits from being changed more often than perhaps we'd like. Thats why i said i'd rather change a chain too early, to protect the cassette etc, you're right on that Erreca.

WD to clean it ?...well...you can but as its a solvent, it is very good at breaking down dirt and oil, BUT, that solvent is going to get into the roller pins (the MOST important part of a chain...and you don't even see them) and break down the oil you put on shortly after thus undoing your good work.

If your system works to your satisfaction....its working. Nothing can change that. Someone will have a different opinion or method...very few are outright wrong, just different. It MAY be shortening the chain life a bit...so what i'd think. 
Oil it, wipe it, do it regularly. I'm happy to replace a chain twice a year if i'm doing the mileage, once if i'm not. If only i was doing the mileage right now...if only


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## Pale Rider (20 Mar 2015)

Seems to me bike type also has an impact.

The chain on my Alfine 11 hub gear bike looks like it's going to last forever - no detectable wear on the bike shop's gauge after a couple of thousand miles.

Much as I would like to claim this as a vindication of my maintenance regime, I don't think it is.

The higher chain line on a bike without a derailleur keeps the chain out of the worst of the road dirt, the chain always runs in a perfect line chain ring to sprocket, and the wear caused by dragging the chain across a rear cassette is absent.


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## derrick (20 Mar 2015)

I use WD40 after every ride to clean of the muck, then GT85 before every ride in the summer, but a proper chain oil (Finish line wet lube)in the winter, Chains seem to last well enough, as said before they are a consumable item, got through three chains last year, just over 7000 miles.


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## EasyPeez (20 Mar 2015)

Pale Rider said:


> "Good as any," was his slightly world weary response to such a fresh and interesting question.


I like that! I wonder why it is that bike mechs are such an excitable bunch...


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## EasyPeez (20 Mar 2015)

gbb said:


> Thats why i said i'd rather change a chain too early, to protect the cassette etc



This suggests that you don't change the chain and cassette together? The bike mech (whose advice I am willing to overlook given that I have been warned on this thread that he doesn't know his onions!) said they always recommend changing cassette and chain together once chain reaches .5 to .75 wear. I guess they would say that as it's more profit for them, but is it the best thing to do?

Before getting this new bike I rode (albeit it very much on and off) my old MTB for 14 years without a new cassette, chain or set of brake blocks...I never saw this level of expense and maintenance coming when I bought my new machine!


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## Turbo Rider (20 Mar 2015)

Depends how worn the cassette is. I've heard it said that if you change your chain on .75 wear, you can go through 3 chains before you need a new cassette. Not sure myself. Messed mine right up by not checking my chain at all for 8 months and the result was a messed up everything. Started going wrong after about 3 or 4 months though and though I could hear it, I just put up with it, so by that rationale, I'd say you should be able to hear and feel when you need a new cassette. They also look a bit different when worn. Bit sharper. If in doubt, buy both and compare the new cassette to the existing one...I use the same method to check my cleats...always a good thing to keep new spares...


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## mjr (20 Mar 2015)

Pale Rider said:


> The higher chain line on a bike without a derailleur keeps the chain out of the worst of the road dirt, the chain always runs in a perfect line chain ring to sprocket, and the wear caused by dragging the chain across a rear cassette is absent.


Plus many of them use thicker 1/8" chains, have chain guards or full cases and have only one thicker chainring. The drawbacks are lower theoretical maximum efficiency and some bad bike shops refusing to repair them. Price worth paying?


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## derrick (20 Mar 2015)

I change cassette every other chain. that's on a 10 speed.


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## gbb (20 Mar 2015)

EasyPeez said:


> This suggests that you don't change the chain and cassette together? The bike mech (whose advice I am willing to overlook given that I have been warned on this thread that he doesn't know his onions!) said they always recommend changing cassette and chain together once chain reaches .5 to .75 wear. I guess they would say that as it's more profit for them, but is it the best thing to do?
> 
> Before getting this new bike I rode (albeit it very much on and off) my old MTB for 14 years without a new cassette, chain or set of brake blocks...I never saw this level of expense and maintenance coming when I bought my new machine!


 Its a general rule, and a very accepted one, that one cassette SHOULD last three chains, assuming those chains are changed before too much wear has set in.
Chain and cassette every time...only if the chain was sooo stretched it had worn out the cassette. A proper regime would prevent that, that would be some serious abuse.


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## S.Giles (20 Mar 2015)

My chain is _*dirty!*_


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## LouiseSJPP (21 Mar 2015)

@gbb, the Zen art of bicycle maintenance  

From Wiki, on WD40: "The long-term active ingredient is a non-volatile, viscous oil which remains on the surface, providing lubrication and protection from moisture.[5] This is diluted with a volatile hydrocarbon to give a low viscosity fluid which can be sprayed and thus penetrate crevices. The volatile hydrocarbon then evaporates, leaving the oil behind. A propellant (originally a low-molecular weight hydrocarbon, now carbon dioxide) provides gas pressure in the can to force the liquid through the spray nozzle, then evaporates away". 

The water-displacement property, the ability to penetrate crevices and to leave oil behind are, I think, useful properties in chain care. I like to wipe over with lightish oil afterwards, having had rust problems in the arduous mountain biking days, but this was probably from trying a dry lube, which did not work out well. But deep down, I believe that the wiping of oil over the chain probably does more damage than anything else, as it just smears any dirt on the chain into the joints. It's an emotional thing, it doesn't feel right not to wipe it!


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## Pale Rider (21 Mar 2015)

Errecaldia said:


> @gbb, the Zen art of bicycle maintenance
> 
> From Wiki, on WD40: "The long-term active ingredient is a non-volatile, viscous oil which remains on the surface, providing lubrication and protection from moisture.[5] This is diluted with a volatile hydrocarbon to give a low viscosity fluid which can be sprayed and thus penetrate crevices. The volatile hydrocarbon then evaporates, leaving the oil behind. A propellant (originally a low-molecular weight hydrocarbon, now carbon dioxide) provides gas pressure in the can to force the liquid through the spray nozzle, then evaporates away".
> 
> The water-displacement property, the ability to penetrate crevices and to leave oil behind are, I think, useful properties in chain care. I like to wipe over with lightish oil afterwards, having had rust problems in the arduous mountain biking days, but this was probably from trying a dry lube, which did not work out well. But deep down, I believe that the wiping of oil over the chain probably does more damage than anything else, as it just smears any dirt on the chain into the joints. It's an emotional thing, it doesn't feel right not to wipe it!



Looks like WD40 would do a similar job to GT85 as a chain lube.

I prefer GT85 because it's a bit more versatile, a spray and wipe over the rest of the bike (not the disc brake rotors) lifts light greasy marks and leaves a nice shiny finish on the wheels and paintwork.

I also have a standing price of £2 a tin with the bike shop, so GT85 is more cost effective for me.

I've tried wiping the chain with a tiny bit of motor oil on a rag, but the chain picks up dirt as soon as I start a ride.

That doesn't happen to anything like the same degree with just GT85.


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## mjr (21 Mar 2015)

Of the two, I also prefer GT85 for bikes because WD40 (which I use on some things around the garden) sometimes leaves a slightly polished surface finish which I'm not sure about on a chain.


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## gbb (21 Mar 2015)

Do what I do (or did)...try what you fancy, WD, engine oil, cycle specific oil, chainsaw oil...whatever, but unless you monitor mileage achieved, you really have no idea how one does against the other.
Some of my past experience..
SRAM, 105, Veloce and KMC, they all performed much of a muchness with regular cleaning and oiling, be it cycle specific oil or engine oil...they all did IRO 1200 to 1500 miles before I replaced them using a chain guage at .5 or thereabouts.
The only noticeable difference was WD40, chain lasted roughly 700 miles. Short mileage, but gloriously clean chain. 
Swings and roundabouts, you can't have it all...you decide.

I always get 3 chains to one cassette, the only chainrings ive replaced were at 6000 miles ish.


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## EasyPeez (23 Mar 2015)

3 chains to one cassette sounds a bit more like it! Do most of you order chains online and fit yourself or take it into the LBS for a new chain? Are most chains as good as one another or should I be looking for certain ones when it's time to replace (got a Shimano on currently)? Thanks for the feedback.

Lube-wise I'm still on the factory stuff at the moment but seeing as I've bought this ceramic gubbins I'm going to degrease next weekend and try that, with regular wiping and re-application during the week and a full degrease and re-lube every month or two depending on mileage/muck levels. I'll see how that pans out first then consider some of the other regimens suggested on here.

I love GT85 for the cassette and frame. If I don't get on with the ceramic stuff I'll try your method next and use just that on the chain too @Pale Rider.

Thanks for the help with this, everyone.


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## Pale Rider (23 Mar 2015)

EasyPeez said:


> 3 chains to one cassette sounds a bit more like it! Do most of you order chains online and fit yourself or take it into the LBS for a new chain? Are most chains as good as one another or should I be looking for certain ones when it's time to replace (got a Shimano on currently)? Thanks for the feedback.
> 
> Lube-wise I'm still on the factory stuff at the moment but seeing as I've bought this ceramic gubbins I'm going to degrease next weekend and try that, with regular wiping and re-application during the week and a full degrease and re-lube every month or two depending on mileage/muck levels. I'll see how that pans out first then consider some of the other regimens suggested on here.
> 
> ...



GT85 will clean your cassette, but I would be inclined to use car wash and wax solution.

You want to avoid GT85 coming into contact with the ceramic lube, GT85 is a solvent and it will attempt to dissolve the lube, possibly leaving you with a sloppy mess on the chain.

The wash and wax is a detergent, so should lift the cassette dirt - stiff brush required - if you then dry the cassette with a rag, you can lube the chain without fear of the lube doing anything you don't want it to.

No need to lube the cassette individually, what's on the chain will see to that.

Chain replacement and brand could make another fascinating thread, but KMC are well recommend on here and by my local bike shop.

Yet more choice even if you restrict yourself to KMC.

No point in buying the dearest, equally probably best to avoid the cheapest.

Ten speed chains are a bit dearer than eight, but one for £15 or a bit less should do the job.

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/kmc-x10-93-10-speed-chain/rp-prod120676

Easy enough to do yourself, although you will need a chain breaker.

This Park Tools one for a tenner is excellent.

Chris my bike mechanic mate told me one has lasted well in their workshop, so it will last you a lifetime.

It's also small enough should you decide to carry it - and a quick link - on the bike.

I've never had a chain snap, but compromise by carrying mine on longer rides - if I remember to pick it up.

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/...gclid=CMXKgovtvcQCFfQatAodKVUAPw&gclsrc=aw.ds


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## mickle (23 Mar 2015)

A good quality cassette will last a decade of everyday use if you treat your chains right and replace them often enough.


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## EasyPeez (23 Mar 2015)

Pale Rider said:


> GT85 will clean your cassette, but I would be inclined to use car wash and wax solution.
> 
> You want to avoid GT85 coming into contact with the ceramic lube, GT85 is a solvent and it will attempt to dissolve the lube, possibly leaving you with a sloppy mess on the chain.
> 
> The wash and wax is a detergent, so should lift the cassette dirt - stiff brush required - if you then dry the cassette with a rag, you can lube the chain without fear of the lube doing anything you don't want it to.



Thanks for putting me straight on that. I currently use wash n wax in some hot water with a stiff brush to clean the cassette, then have been drying it with a rag, then giving it a light buff with a rag squirted with GT85 wrapped around a CD. I'll leave the GT85 off the rag once I start using the ceramic lube. Thanks.

I'll give those KMC chains a look. I hear that some come with 'quick links' these days, so that might even negate the need for a chain breaker? Or is there some downside to quick links?



mickle said:


> A good quality cassette will last a decade of everyday use if you treat your chains right and replace them often enough.


Seriously? That's kind of what I expected based on my use (and abuse) of my old bike tbh, but a few searches on here suggests many people are getting through one every few thousand miles. Is it just something you can judge based on the appearance of the teeth and how well the chain is engaging rather than need to trust the mech's advice on?


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## Pale Rider (23 Mar 2015)

You will need the chain breaker to remove a few links in the new chain to make it match the length of the old one.

Quick links rarely fail, although opinions vary as to how many times they can be used.

Not a problem for most riders who install the chain, cycle until it's worn out, then install a new chain with a new quick link.

A worn cassette is indicated by pointy teeth, but as has been said, you could easily get three chains to one cassette.

The time to look at the cassette is if the gears skip with a new or relatively new chain.


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## mjr (23 Mar 2015)

EasyPeez said:


> I hear that some come with 'quick links' these days, so that might even negate the need for a chain breaker? Or is there some downside to quick links?


No downside but there is a knack to opening them and make sure you fit them the correct way round (inside on the inside of the chain loop).

I only get a couple of years out of a cassette at best but the fens are awful for sand and road salt and modern cassettes seem less tough (even without going to the thinner 10+speed ones).


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## Dogtrousers (23 Mar 2015)

mickle said:


> Basil infused extra virgin is also oil but has limited use as a chain lube.


From my experience of observing discussions on this subject I full expect that not only will someone appear and swear by basil infused extra virgin olive oil as a chain lube, but that they will get into a bitter argument with someone who insists that rosemary-infused oil is far superior.


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## winjim (23 Mar 2015)

Dogtrousers said:


> From my experience of observing discussions on this subject I full expect that not only will someone appear and swear by basil infused extra virgin olive oil as a chain lube, but that they will get into a bitter argument with someone who insists that rosemary-infused oil is far superior.


A sage observation, this discussion comes up thyme and thyme again.


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## EasyPeez (23 Mar 2015)

winjim said:


> A sage observation, this discussion comes up thyme and thyme again.


I don't think either are ideal. I prefer to keep my chain in _mint _condition; to keep the rust at _bay_ my preference is garlic chilli oil. Then I give it a good going over with a rag to keep it in fine_ fennel_. That way I can use my bike in confidence every day and put the _caraway_ in the garage. 

Ahem. I'll get me coat.


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## EasyPeez (23 Mar 2015)

Pale Rider said:


> You will need the chain breaker to remove a few links in the new chain to make it match the length of the old one


Ah, I never thought of that. I really owe you a pint of GT85 for all this good advice!



Pale Rider said:


> The time to look at the cassette is if the gears skip with a new or relatively new chain.


Good to know I can trust my eyes/judgement then and not have to just shell out on a cassette every time I get a new chain cos the mech says I should. Thanks.



mjray said:


> I only get a couple of years out of a cassette at best


That doesn't sound too bad. What does a couple of years equate to in miles for you? I think my fine-weather riding plus all the flat around here should mean my chain and cassette probably take a fair bit less hammer mile on mile than yours. Cheers.


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## bpsmith (23 Mar 2015)

I use this, although I believe it's frowned up if you have a Shimano drivetrain...


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## winjim (23 Mar 2015)

EasyPeez said:


> ...and put the _caraway_ in the garage.


Oh I like that one!


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## mjr (23 Mar 2015)

EasyPeez said:


> What does a couple of years equate to in miles for you?


I think the cassette lasts under two years so maybe 6000 miles.


> I think my fine-weather riding plus all the flat around here should mean my chain and cassette probably take a fair bit less hammer mile on mile than yours.


 Neither the fens nor the levels are exactly short of flat... although I have ventured onto the ridge and the Mendips sometimes.


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## EasyPeez (23 Mar 2015)

winjim said:


> Oh I like that one!


Yeah, I'm still feeling pretty pleased with myself about that one tbh!


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