# trust your base training



## JasonHolder (19 Apr 2014)

I see so many guys meaning to go out and do some long miles, yet let the wheels touch the road and they search out a mountain and end it after 40miles and call it HIT. 
Trust your miles, they won't ever let you down. You'll do so much more later on with the harder training avec some steady long rides In The bank. 
Set your base period and ignore the HIT stuff till you're strong and fit.
I haven't ridden over the winter so I've got another 7weeks base yet. Big miles don't break knees-big gears do. Happy spinning


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## L14M (19 Apr 2014)

I just ride my bike.


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## 50000tears (19 Apr 2014)

I have an idea of the level you have ridden at so your numbers will be very different to mine. Can you give an indication though of the kind of miles you are doing per week for your base and perhaps what an aspiring club rider should be aiming for? 

Interested in this myself as having had a lot of my winter work, having only started riding properly in September, being done on a stationary bike and interval based (largely due to the crappy weather) I am now looking to build a solid base myself over the next ten weeks. My last week was just over 160 miles but that was helped by a Sportive ride, but am thinking along the lines of 150 miles a week for the ten weeks.


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## 400bhp (19 Apr 2014)

Base is bollox.


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## 400bhp (19 Apr 2014)

Oh and what's with the preachy style - doesn't bode well.


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## 50000tears (19 Apr 2014)

400bhp said:


> Base is bollox.



Well clearly not given that pros will still do a base building block of training before the season starts. The real question is how it fits into everyday life for the 99% of the cycling population that cannot give the time to spend several hours a day on the road. For them another way needs to be sought.


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## 400bhp (19 Apr 2014)

50000tears said:


> Well clearly not given that pros will still do a base building block of training before the season starts. The real question is how it fits into everyday life for the 99% of the cycling population that cannot give the time to spend several hours a day on the road. For them another way needs to be sought.



It was slightly tongue in cheek given the cringeworthy prose of the OP.

Albeit there are quite a few peeps (pros included) that seem to be moving away from base training.

Plus it depends upon what you are training for.


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## 50000tears (19 Apr 2014)

400bhp said:


> It was slightly tongue in cheek given the cringeworthy prose of the OP.
> 
> Albeit there are quite a few peeps (pros included) that seem to be moving away from base training.
> 
> Plus it depends upon what you are training for.



True enough on all counts.

For me it is just spending time out on the bike to get my fitness up. I am not too good at this steady riding stuff and tend to push as hard as I can for as long as I am out. Also due to all the hills around my ,riding long easy base miles is difficult when every few minutes you are faced with yet another climb.


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## cyberknight (19 Apr 2014)

50000tears said:


> Well clearly not given that pros will still do a base building block of training before the season starts. The real question is how it fits into everyday life for the 99% of the cycling population that cannot give the time to spend several hours a day on the road. For them another way needs to be sought.


http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/193403083X
Upshot of the 1t edition is go like the clappers for whatever time you have


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## 50000tears (19 Apr 2014)

cyberknight said:


> http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/193403083X
> Upshot of the 1t edition is go like the clappers for whatever time you have



Is it worth getting. Funnily enough was looking at this earlier but was a little put off by the mixed reviews. Also without a HRM or a power meter which I understand is almost a requirement to get the most out of the training.


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## montage (19 Apr 2014)

Can I hear a hallelujah!

...careful where you preach from!



What is base? If you're a racing base is probably hard tempo and lower threshold work. If you aren't racing, then fitness is fitness and the concept of periodisation goes out the window. If you're a TTer base is probably what you listen to in your oversized headphone trying to look swag on your turbo whilst warming up!!


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## cyberknight (20 Apr 2014)

50000tears said:


> Is it worth getting. Funnily enough was looking at this earlier but was a little put off by the mixed reviews. Also without a HRM or a power meter which I understand is almost a requirement to get the most out of the training.


Indeed , a HRM can be had for £15 from argos .I got my copy from ebay for a couple of quid but tbh if you take my commuting times ( maybe 6 hours on a full week ) i might get 1-3 hours of time to train atm .


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## Rob3rt (20 Apr 2014)

Guy's, he rides at an (undisclosed) high level... he is throwing us a bone, we should be thankful.


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## Joshua Plumtree (20 Apr 2014)

cyberknight said:


> http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/193403083X
> Upshot of the 1t edition is go like the clappers for whatever time you have



Haven't got the time to read this stuff, too pre-occupied with becoming a time crunched athlete!


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## JasonHolder (20 Apr 2014)

My base has been 400 miles in the last week. All below threshold and a long way below. 100m Friday and 100m today.
Sorry for sounding garish as some guys have pointed out. 
I am a git.


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## JasonHolder (20 Apr 2014)

400bhp said:


> It was slightly tongue in cheek given the cringeworthy prose of the OP.
> 
> Albeit there are quite a few peeps (pros included) that seem to be moving away from base training.
> 
> Plus it depends upon what you are training for.


Everyone does base. Simply don't realise it. You don't just jump into heavy workouts intervals/hills whatever... After having ridden nothing do you? Or maybe you do, in that case you should take note.


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## JasonHolder (20 Apr 2014)

[QUO50000tears, post: 3035941, member: 33243"]I have an idea of the level you have ridden at so your numbers will be very different to mine. Can you give an indication though of the kind of miles you are doing per week for your base and perhaps what an aspiring club rider should be aiming for?

Interested in this myself as having had a lot of my winter work, having only started riding properly in September, being done on a stationary bike and interval based (largely due to the crappy weather) I am now looking to build a solid base myself over the next ten weeks. My last week was just over 160 miles but that was helped by a Sportive ride, but am thinking along the lines of 150 miles a week for the ten weeks.[/QUOTE]
Hi
Personally for me its 5-6 hour rides that I feel give me the best return. ⁴ hours you can sort of run tempo hard. 3 is a heavy hill climb day later on. 
If you start at 150miles. That's 2x75 mile rides. and bear in mind we aren't grinding gears here. So your muscles arent being minced every ride.
Id probably put another 3 rides in there of maybe 50miles a piece or build them up from say 20 or 30 a piece. That's already 300 slow steady miles. Nothing mad. 
Just my opinion but I don't know you so gauge for yourself.

150miles a week is just 30 miles a day split over 5 days. Not endurance really. 

10 weeks disciplined base is pretty hard unless you like riding slow for hours and hours just to get out the house. Boredom must not be underestimated. 

Drink well, eat well, ride well paced and you can do any distance you like


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## cyberknight (20 Apr 2014)

Nice , chance would be a fine thing ! 
2 young kids , wife with health issues and shift work are not the best ways to get the miles in .


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## 50000tears (20 Apr 2014)

Agree with Cyber. Whilst I would love to have the time for those type of rides they are not realistic for me. Also wife 2 kids and a full time job. Throw dog walking duties in and finding time for longer rides is hard. 2 hours an evening during the week with hopefully more at the weekend is best time allows.

At the moment those 150 miles would be split over 5 days. Whilst that might not sound much I do live in a hilly area so even trying to avoid the tougher hills a 50 mile ride would still involve 4-5,000 ft of climbing. Hard to stay in level 2 with so many hills. Back to back long rides are tough due to this and of course my current fitness level.


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## JasonHolder (20 Apr 2014)

Endurance base still remains the foundation for a long-term improvement. Not clowns who do 2 HIT sessions, think they're the nuts and then disappear because they are unprepared.



400bhp said:


> Base is bollox.


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## Cuchilo (20 Apr 2014)

I'm interested in why you think doing mileage on a flat course for 100 miles is good rather than mixing it up over less miles ?
I don't really train for anything but I ride a fair bit . If there isn't a hill in the ride to make me realise im pathetic then whats the point ?


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## JasonHolder (20 Apr 2014)

The point is you don't require a base because you have no targets.(base is what gets guys who have targets in a condition to train hard enough to reach them.)
And that's fine. I realise this thread isn't for the everyday guy. Please try and realise this too


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## Cuchilo (20 Apr 2014)

I'm no every day guy baby 
I understand that you are doing hills after a few flat days but I still cant see the point in hitting 100 miles on flats .


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## 50000tears (20 Apr 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> The point is you don't require a base because you have no targets. And that's fine. I realise this thread isn't for the everyday guy. Please try and realise this too



Cuchilo makes a fair point though. Can you clarify as to why lots of easy miles is more beneficial than a more testing shorter course which demands more of a mix in training intensity? 

The need for pros and *cough* national level riders to have a proper base of lots of high mileage days is clear due to the demands of the events they take part in. But for the club rider who may not aspire to such lofty heights with long single rides being something done just a few times a year rather than week on week, then surely there are more efficient ways to boost their fitness and performance for the far lower demands a club riding season will place on them?


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## Cuchilo (20 Apr 2014)

Mr Tears .
I am 40 years old and have spent all my working life in the building trade . I have seen pumped up men bigger than trucks turn up on sites and they are bloody useless when given any kind of task . All they know is what they know from training .
Base train for what you want to do , Lifting a bag of sand 300 times a day is fine but lifting it and walking 300ft is another thing .


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## JasonHolder (20 Apr 2014)

I dont think he does. As both club riders and pro guys both ride bikes.

If you want to be the best you can for your Sunday clubs. Then do a good base period. Then move onto the shorted harder stuff so you can actually function and not be limping for 3 days after your pace work.

And I'd like to just add. I work on cadence alot. And upping your cadence just doesn't stick when you ride short. Its when you master it that it becomes efficient too. Not the firdt time. First time you tried I bet you were slower just like me. And blew up just like me.


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## Cuchilo (20 Apr 2014)

"I dont think he does. As both club riders and pro guys both ride bikes."
I will have to take a look into that one and get back to you if that's ok


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## Rob3rt (20 Apr 2014)

Cuchilo said:


> You seem to say that a lot . Does someone need a cuddle ?



I need a hard surface against which to bang my head... that is what I need!


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## Pro Tour Punditry (20 Apr 2014)

I've not read so much horsecrap for a long time


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## uclown2002 (20 Apr 2014)

This could be fun while it lasts


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## JasonHolder (20 Apr 2014)

[="Marmion, post: 3038369, member: 33185"]I've not read so much horsecrap for a long time[/QUOTE]

Youre lost. Rate my gardening thread is in a different section .


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## 400bhp (20 Apr 2014)

http://www.30bananasaday.com/profile/jasonholder?xg_source=activity


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## JasonHolder (20 Apr 2014)

400bhp said:


> http://www.30bananasaday.com/profile/jasonholder?xg_source=activity



Yes its me


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## cyberknight (21 Apr 2014)

Worth a read .
Helgerud et al. 2007; Wisløff, Ellingsen & Kemi 2009
http://files.meetup.com/3391872/HIIT vs. HVT.pdf
http://experiencelife.com/article/steady-state-cardio-vs-high-intensity-interval-training/
http://www.unm.edu/~lkravitz/Article folder/HIITvsCardio.html
http://alainlambert.wordpress.com/

short version.
Both types of training have their merits and you should dependent on time available include both in your training program.


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## Andrew_Culture (21 Apr 2014)

I never had any bass training, I just ended up playing bass because my singing voice alarmed the local wildlife.


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## winjim (21 Apr 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> Yes its me


Blimey, how did you cope as a vegan in the Paras? I wouldn't have thought the two lifestyles were very compatible.


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## vickster (21 Apr 2014)

30bad is a fruit-focused vegan internet community which promotes a high carb fruit based vegan lifestyle free of any animal products. Our forum does not tolerate encouragement of anything contrary to this. Nor do we allow endorsement of non-vegan items or practises which involve the imprisonment, exploitation, abuse or murder of sentient beings. We also require our members to post with proper netiquette. Therefore, please indicate your intention:
*I will comply because I like totally agree with all this
*
I am liking the masterful reasoning.
How does potentially killing people as part of your job fall into the philosophy? Interested as veganism is often linked with pacifism.


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## JasonHolder (21 Apr 2014)

jim said:


> Blimey, how did you cope as a vegan in the Paras? I wouldn't have thought the two lifestyles were very compatible.


Start a new thread please


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## JasonHolder (21 Apr 2014)

E="vickster, post: 3038615, member: 10217"]30bad is a fruit-focused vegan internet community which promotes a high carb fruit based vegan lifestyle free of any animal products. Our forum does not tolerate encouragement of anything contrary to this. Nor do we allow endorsement of non-vegan items or practises which involve the imprisonment, exploitation, abuse or murder of sentient beings. We also require our members to post with proper netiquette. Therefore, please indicate your intention:
*I will comply because I like totally agree with all this
*
I am liking the masterful reasoning.
How does potentially killing people as part of your job fall into the philosophy? Interested as veganism is often linked with pacifism.[/QUOTE]
Thats like saying how did you cope being a non smoker when you smoked.


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## winjim (21 Apr 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> Start a new thread please


Learn how to use quotes please.


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## Doyleyburger (21 Apr 2014)

L14M said:


> I just ride my bike.


^^^^just this^^^^^

This thread is cracking me up.
Enjoy riding your bikes people....
That is all !!


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## uclown2002 (21 Apr 2014)

Doyleyburger said:


> ^^^^just this^^^^^
> 
> This thread is cracking me up.
> Enjoy riding your bikes people....
> That is all !!


+1
Almost as funny as that thread promoting eating a lorry-load of bananas each day.


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## Cuchilo (21 Apr 2014)

Ive just bought two bananas from Tesco . We all have to start somewhere .


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## ianrauk (21 Apr 2014)

Captain Banana's is back then...


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## ayceejay (21 Apr 2014)

It took me a while but I got the thirty bananas a day down, NOW I have to ride 100 miles a day and I have a logistics problem.
Do I have to eat the bananas and ride at the same time or do I eat them all before I go out? How do I carry them on the bike? Do I need some Assos colostomy shorts?


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## Archie_tect (21 Apr 2014)

Can't ypu go out the night before and hide them in hedges along the route?


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## montage (21 Apr 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> Start a new thread please



Bloody hell.
Who do you think you are?
And what are you peaking for starting your base now, an October intermediate club run ride?

My advice is to stop using base as an excuse for doing nice long slow easy rides and put some effort in, you might get somewhere. Your basic point about not overdoing things too quickly, especially as a beginner is valid - but the rest of this thread, especially the arrogant manner in which you have portrayed yourself (with zero credentials one might add) has about as much relevance to the cycling community as a gnat taking a dump on your neighbour's car bonnet.


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## Joshua Plumtree (21 Apr 2014)

Archie_tect said:


> Can't ypu go out the night before and hide them in hedges along the route?


 
Slippery slope, I'm sorry to say, you'd have banana trees sprouting up all over the countryside and that's something none of the right minded silent majority could tolerate. 

And gawd help us, what is all this bitching about.  Everyone just get out there and ride yer bikes and stop telling the rest of us how it should or shouldn't be done!


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## Archie_tect (21 Apr 2014)

So plumtrees are OK but not bananatrees? That's sounds like prejudice to me.... tsk.


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## Joshua Plumtree (21 Apr 2014)

Archie_tect said:


> So plumtrees are OK but not bananatrees? That's sounds like prejudice to me.... tsk.



In my experience plums almost always taste sweeter.


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## JasonHolder (21 Apr 2014)

montage said:


> Bloody hell.
> Who do you think you are?
> And what are you peaking for starting your base now, an October intermediate club run ride?
> 
> My advice is to stop using base as an excuse for doing nice long slow easy rides and put some effort in, you might get somewhere. Your basic point about not overdoing things too quickly, especially as a beginner is valid - but the rest of this thread, especially the arrogant manner in which you have portrayed yourself (with zero credentials one might add) has about as much relevance to the cycling community as a gnat taking a dump on your neighbour's car bonnet.



Just got back from France 2 weeks ago after serving in the French foreign legion please excuse me for starting base this late.


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## L14M (21 Apr 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> Just got back from France 2 weeks ago after serving in the French foreign legion please excuse me for starting base this late.


Why would you go from the paras to the ffl?


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## montage (21 Apr 2014)

L14M said:


> Why would you go from the paras to the ffl?



If you were his boss....where would you send him?


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## Joshua Plumtree (21 Apr 2014)

Oh - Ok then, excuse accepted.

I'm off to the General Cycling forum. This thread is becoming much too intensive for me, or should that be extensive!


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## L14M (21 Apr 2014)

montage said:


> If you were his boss....where would you send him?


To the butchers.. No that's mean


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## yello (21 Apr 2014)

Joshua Plumtree said:


> This thread is becoming much too intensive for me, or should that be extensive!



You've obviously not done the required base training 

You should start slowly and steadily, a couple of hundred posts in P&L (or whatever it's now called) should do it, before venturing into here.


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## Joshua Plumtree (21 Apr 2014)

I'm back. They're all goin' on about Springer Spaniels in the General Cycling forum.


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## JasonHolder (21 Apr 2014)

L14M said:


> Why would you go from the paras to the ffl?



It gets complicated but I was on a murder charge


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## Cuchilo (21 Apr 2014)

Did you get to wear one of those funny hats with the ear flaps ?


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## JasonHolder (21 Apr 2014)

Cuchilo said:


> Did you get to wear one of those funny hats with the ear flaps ?



Issued jungle floppies? Yes. Disgusting


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## montage (21 Apr 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> It gets complicated but I was on a murder charge





Bye guys!


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## ayceejay (21 Apr 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> It gets complicated but I was on a murder charge


Surely you are only _suggesting_ mega miles/bananas they can't charge you for that can they, or did you *make* somebody do it?


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## JasonHolder (21 Apr 2014)

montage said:


> Bye guys!



Run out of stupid shoot to say? Fantastic


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## Adam4868 (21 Apr 2014)

Jason which ones you in your avatar ?


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## jack smith (21 Apr 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> Just got back from France 2 weeks ago after serving in the French foreign legion please excuse me for starting base this late.



I see your TRF IS 2 para... I'm surprised you have enough time to be doing all these rides. after being MD'd from 3 para myself last July I don't see how you have the time to do them all nevermind be bitching on the forum lol


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## montage (21 Apr 2014)

Adam4868 said:


> Jason which ones you in your avatar ?


 the tit


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## uclown2002 (21 Apr 2014)

montage said:


> the tit


That's still a 50/50 
Left or right?


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## Pro Tour Punditry (21 Apr 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> It gets complicated but I was on a murder charge





You are a complete doofus


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## oldfatfool (21 Apr 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> Just got back from France 2 weeks ago after serving in the French foreign legion please excuse me for starting base this late.


Should have taken your bike, you might have found a few hills to complement your (slow) easy spinning on the flat.


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## Joshua Plumtree (21 Apr 2014)

Can someone explain to me what's goin'' on? Just back from a stroll out with her indoors and all hell's broken loose in my abscence! 

What's even worse, I also appear to have forgotten how to spell absense?!


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## cyberknight (21 Apr 2014)

oldfatfool said:


> Should have taken your bike, you might have found a few hills to complement your (slow) easy spinning on the flat.


I hear Ventoux is a steady ride


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## Rob3rt (21 Apr 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> *Run out of stupid **** to say?* Fantastic



It's a shame you haven't.


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## oldfatfool (21 Apr 2014)

cyberknight said:


> I hear Ventoux is a steady ride


It is the way I ride it


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## JasonHolder (21 Apr 2014)

Couldn't help myself 


Marmion said:


> You are a complete doofus


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## Cuchilo (21 Apr 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> It gets complicated but I was on a murder charge


Did you top a carrot ?


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## jack smith (21 Apr 2014)

@JasonHolder so whats this with the FFL why leave the para's


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## uclown2002 (21 Apr 2014)

jack smith said:


> @JasonHolder so whats this with the FFL why leave the para's



If you read this thread you will see!


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## jack smith (21 Apr 2014)

Murder inquiry... Seriously? Excuse the language


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## JasonHolder (21 Apr 2014)

jack smith said:


> Murder inquiry... Seriously? Excuse the language
> View attachment 43051


NO I was taking the piss. 
I'm not the first Reg lad to go that way. A couple of guys I know have gone over. Its a life choice I guess. If you arent happy with civ st.


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## jack smith (21 Apr 2014)

So why are you back? Not enough base training to hack selection?


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## Hacienda71 (21 Apr 2014)

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bCyIAsSid8

This thread reminds me of this.


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## JasonHolder (21 Apr 2014)

jack smith said:


> So why are you back? Not enough base training to hack selection?


Not enough to hack selection no.
Totally different breed.


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## vickster (21 Apr 2014)

montage said:


> If you were his boss....where would you send him?


Not France, the Sahara 

I thought the French Foreign Legion went to foreign places which isn't France for the French 

Must be hard to be vegan in France, they will literally eat anything...


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## vickster (21 Apr 2014)

Adam4868 said:


> Jason which ones you in your avatar ?


The he-she in the bra?


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## vickster (21 Apr 2014)

Cuchilo said:


> Did you top a carrot ?


I thought he was a soldier, not a Masterchef contestant?


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## vickster (21 Apr 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> Not enough to hack selection no.
> Totally different breed.


Can't speak French? Je mange trente bananes par jour...


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## uclown2002 (21 Apr 2014)

vickster said:


> The he-she in the bra?



Ouch


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## Joshua Plumtree (22 Apr 2014)

Used to work on a chicken farm during the school holidays many, many moons ago.

Placid little birds you might think, busily pecking and clucking away in the afternoon sun. Until one of their number gets injured, that is, and starts hopping around on one leg; at the first sign of weakness the rest of the birds would pick on the lame individual and, given the chance, literally tear it to shreds.

At which point, they'd simply return to pecking and clucking away in the afternoon sun as though nothing had happened!


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## Tin Pot (22 Apr 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> I see so many guys meaning to go out and do some long miles, yet let the wheels touch the road and they search out a mountain and end it after 40miles and call it HIT.
> Trust your miles, they won't ever let you down. You'll do so much more later on with the harder training avec some steady long rides In The bank.
> Set your base period and ignore the HIT stuff till you're strong and fit.
> I haven't ridden over the winter so I've got another 7weeks base yet. Big miles don't break knees-big gears do. Happy spinning



Well said.

My personal opinion on HIT tends to agree with what I hear from moderates in the industry - you get your 5%-10% HIT naturally anyway. I use an HRM to check the intensity I'm working at, because I'm not yet willing to buy into a power metre, and cycling for a few hours at low intensity has seen my bike fitness increase well.

I understand this to be similar to the reasons that base training for running is great - essentially, the long easy work outs get the right muscles to improve, whereas doing to much at too high a level damages them too much for optimal improvement.


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## Rob3rt (22 Apr 2014)

The OP might be doing "base miles" to some end but for most racers, what the OP is doing is riding a bike. That isn't base mileage, that's junk milage. For a sportiver, club rider or general fitness cyclist, riding a bike is all that is required, full stop!

The biggest issue is that the OP assumes some authority, based on "riding at a high level" as stated somewhere or other, yet fails to qualify this with stating exactly what this is. Now a pissing contest is a waste of time, as we all know, but if someone is going to assume authority and advise/or indeed mislead based on a statement such as this, others should be given the details so as to make an informed decision on whether to take notice, or if they really feel like pissing, dispute it based on their credentials! There are a lot of smart people on here, but there are also a lot of people who could quite easily take things as written and do themselves a mischief!



Tin Pot said:


> *Well said.*
> 
> My personal opinion on HIT tends to agree with what I hear from moderates in the industry - you get your 5%-10% HIT naturally anyway. I use an HRM to check the intensity I'm working at, because I'm not yet willing to buy into a power metre, and cycling for a few hours at low intensity has seen my bike fitness increase well.
> 
> I understand this to be similar to the reasons that base training for running is great - essentially, the long easy work outs get the right muscles to improve, whereas doing to much at too high a level damages them too much for optimal improvement.



You must be the 1st person I have "met" who enjoys being patronised!


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## Archie_tect (22 Apr 2014)

Twice.


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## Stu Plows (22 Apr 2014)

Somebody say base?


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## michaelcycle (22 Apr 2014)

_Bass! How low can you go?
Death row. What a brother knows.
Once again, back is the incredible
The rhyme animal..._

I don't see the point of this thread really.

All fitness is, at its heart, is stress and recovery. Increase the stress (miles, intensity, blindfolds*) in whatever way you can in a way that does not injure you, allow some rest, rinse and repeat.

For most people that translates to: ride your bike more.

*kidding


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## Rickshaw Phil (22 Apr 2014)

Stu Plows said:


> Somebody say base?



View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=IfeyUGZt8nk


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## Tin Pot (22 Apr 2014)

Rob3rt said:


> You must be the 1st person I have "met" who enjoys being patronised!



That's an odd statement...


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## 400bhp (24 Apr 2014)

Where's Bananaman gone?


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## vickster (24 Apr 2014)

Algeria?


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## Herzog (24 Apr 2014)

400bhp said:


> Where's Bananaman gone?



Busy abandoning base training


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## 400bhp (24 Apr 2014)

Not very fast is he.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (24 Apr 2014)

Has anyone found out what this "high level" is?


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## jack smith (24 Apr 2014)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Has anyone found out what this "high level" is?


from the little bit of digging ive done..... racing when he was a junior....basically whizzing around the street with his kneepads on


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## gam001 (25 Apr 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> My base has been 400 miles in the last week. All below threshold and a long way below. 100m Friday and 100m today.
> Sorry for sounding garish as some guys have pointed out.
> I am a git.
> 
> ...


Ha - some of these comments are cracking me up...
One of these rides is labelled "160km spinning below LT" 
No sh1t - of course it was below LT, I mean who could ride pretty much continuously for 160km / 6 hours at (or above) threshold?? 
By definition, in simple terms LT is roughly "as hard as you can go for around 1 hour".
Next it will be "7 hour ride - below sprinting pace" 
Keep them coming though


----------



## jack smith (25 Apr 2014)

gam001 said:


> Ha - some of these comments are cracking me up...
> One of these rides is labelled "160km spinning below LT"
> No **** - of course it was below LT, I mean who could ride pretty much continuously for 160km / 6 hours at (or above) threshold??
> By definition, in simple terms LT is roughly "as hard as you can go for around 1 hour".
> ...



Hilarious aren't they basically he is terrible and slow and covers it up with big ride names haha


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## Rob3rt (25 Apr 2014)

Only 19mph at threshold...? Too much of a beast? LMAO!


----------



## Rob3rt (25 Apr 2014)

BTW, the above it not something I would say in general, I am only mocking/teasing because of the comments regarding riding at a high level and the self proclamation of being "Too much of a beast" thing


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## Rob3rt (25 Apr 2014)

gam001 said:


> Ha - some of these comments are cracking me up...
> One of these rides is labelled "160km spinning below LT"
> No **** - of course it was below LT, I mean who could ride pretty much continuously for 160km / 6 hours at (or above) threshold??
> By definition, in simple terms LT is roughly "as hard as you can go for around 1 hour".
> ...



Yeah, I laughed at the ride titles too, mostly because spinning below threshold could mean anything from a recovery ride to a tempo ride pretty much


----------



## gam001 (25 Apr 2014)

My brother used to be in the paras...you have to take your hat (beret) off to them...although they are a few sandwiches short of a picnic 

Funnily enough, my brother used to be a PTI in the paras and is now a personal fitness trainer and mainly advocates *interval training*! His philosophy is to start with no. of hours per week available to train (usually only between 4 and 8 for his clients) and work backwards from that. To get a training load sufficient to stress the body for improvement off few hours, he says that it mainly has to be intensive work. He only uses lower intensities for recovery weeks (or a recovery month after several consecutive hard months). Obviously, if you have (say) 15+ hours a week to train, then that's obviously a different story, and more lower intensity can be used early on to build a "base", but he would still build in at least some interval work. This all seems logical and reasonable to me.

Given how much Rob3rt has improved recently and how fast he is compared to most ameteur cyclists (he did 10 miles in 20minutes at weekend, off what seems to be only around 6-8 hours per week training), I'd probably be asking him for advice if I were you


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## Mr_K_Dilkington (28 Apr 2014)

Rob3rt said:


> BTW, the above it not something I would say in general, I am only mocking/teasing because of the comments regarding riding at a high level and the self proclamation of being "Too much of a beast" thing



Hah, had only just seen that. I can beat this by a good few mph after only riding for 3 months without any exercise for years prior (let alone being in the paras) and I would definitely not call myself a beast or presume to lecture others on how to train.


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## JasonHolder (28 Apr 2014)

Mr_K_Dilkington said:


> Hah, had only just seen that. I can beat this by a good few mph after only riding for 3 months without any exercise for years prior (let alone being in the paras) and I would definitely not call myself a beast or presume to lecture others on how to train.


Well done


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## Cuchilo (28 Apr 2014)

shoot hes back . Run for it lads !


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## ianrauk (29 Apr 2014)

Cuchilo said:


> **** hes back . Run for it lads !




Mind the banana skins.


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## JasonHolder (29 Apr 2014)

Settle down lads. It's not like I'm saying slaughter a chicken and perform a woowoo rain dance am I.


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## vickster (29 Apr 2014)

I'd rather do that than eat 30 bananas a day on the advice of some Australian whack job


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## JasonHolder (29 Apr 2014)

Mmmmm bananas.


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## brand (1 May 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> My base has been 400 miles in the last week. All below threshold and a long way below. 100m Friday and 100m today.
> Sorry for sounding garish as some guys have pointed out.
> I am a git.


Okay I am an old fart but that sounds like over training. Clearly a great Way to lose lard but....?


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## Rob3rt (1 May 2014)

brand said:


> Okay I am an old fart but that sounds like over training. Clearly a great Way to lose lard but....?



Do you know what over training is?


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## 4F (1 May 2014)

Rob3rt said:


> Do you know what over training is?


31 bananas a day ?


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## JasonHolder (1 May 2014)

I would think not. But he seems nice enough. Teach someone something rob. That's what this thread started out as in the first place before the banana throwing contest started


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## brand (1 May 2014)

Rob3rt said:


> Do you know what over training is?


Yes When your average time starts to fall and the same for weight training. There you go, you have learnt something today... isn't the internet wonderful?


----------



## brand (1 May 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> I would think not. But he seems nice enough. Teach someone something rob. That's what this thread started out as in the first place before the banana throwing contest started


Any particular reason you think that?


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## Rob3rt (1 May 2014)

brand said:


> Yes When your average time starts to fall and the same for weight training. There you go, you have learnt something today... isn't the internet wonderful?



Incorrect


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## brand (1 May 2014)

Rob3rt said:


> Incorrect


Not much of a counter argument! Bit week on specifics. Do enlighten me. As 2 para suggests.


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## brand (1 May 2014)

User13710 said:


> brand and Rob3rt sitting in a tree ...



Sorry mate absolutely no idea what you mean, enlightenment me.


----------



## uclown2002 (2 May 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> My base has been 400 miles in the last week. All below threshold and a long way below. 100m Friday and 100m today.
> Sorry for sounding garish as some guys have pointed out.
> I am a git





brand said:


> Okay I am an old fart but that sounds like over training. Clearly a great Way to lose lard but....?



Why would he be overtraining?


----------



## Joshua Plumtree (2 May 2014)

Don't you just love it when people
come on here and say things like - "you're wrong there fella!" But then decide not to tell us why! 

As Bob Dylan said (showing my age now), maybe they're: "trying to hide something they don't know to begin with"


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## Rob3rt (2 May 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> I would think not. But he seems nice enough. Teach someone something rob. *That's what this thread started out as in the first place* before the banana throwing contest started



Did it? If that is the case what exactly were you trying to teach us? If there was anything of value in there it was lost in translation due to the stylistic choice of "patronising monologue".



brand said:


> Not much of a counter argument! Bit week on specifics. Do enlighten me. As 2 para suggests.



It wasn't meant to be a counter argument, it was a declaration that you were incorrect.

Your "definition" of overtraining was simply one potential "symptom" of overtraining. A symptom which would be attributed to one of many things.

Over training is not something which occurs when someone does an arbitrary number of miles, such as you suggest with your assessment that "2para" sounds like he is overtraining because of his mileage. It occurs when your workload exceeds your ability to recover, and not in the short term, in the medium to long term! In the short term, you are over reaching and this is desirable and indeed a requirement in order to improve!


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## brand (2 May 2014)

You simply said your "wrong" with out expanding on why. That is basically saying I am right and and I don't need to back it up. Hopefully you won't take this badly but that is rather grandiose view of yourself.
grandiose is my word for the day


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## Rob3rt (2 May 2014)

brand said:


> [Rob3rt, post: 3058874, member: 9127"]Did it? If that is the case what exactly were you trying to teach us? If there was anything of value in there it was lost in translation due to the stylistic choice of "patronising monologue".
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It is absolutely the case that I did not feel that I needed to "back it up", the reason being that the definition of overtraining and over reaching is well known and if not known, it is adequately accessible in order for any interested party to look it up within a minute or two (in probably less time than it would take for me to explain) and realise for themselves why your post was incorrect.

For reference, "2para"'s workload would equate to about 900 training stress score (TSS) with an intensity factor (IF) of about 0.6, if his description of the activity is indeed representative of what he was actually doing.


----------



## Rob3rt (2 May 2014)

User13710 said:


> _brand and Rob3rt, sittin' in a tree
> K-I-S-S-I-N-G
> First comes love, then comes marriage
> then comes baby with a baby carriage
> ...



Where did the biggest legs come into it?


----------



## vickster (2 May 2014)

User13710 said:


> _brand and Rob3rt, sittin' in a tree
> K-I-S-S-I-N-G
> First comes love, then comes marriage
> then comes baby with a baby carriage
> ...


Not sure it's about leg sizes....well not the first two anyhow!


----------



## totallyfixed (2 May 2014)

I never come into HF&T, and cannot for the life of me begin to explain why I did this time. After this [I had to read the whole thread but the whole surreal experience has left me feeling like I fell down a rabbit hole] the only words that spring to mind are "mad as a box of frogs". If anyone was being serious on here I would think about booking a medical appointment. Soon.


----------



## brand (2 May 2014)

User13710 said:


> _brand and Rob3rt, sittin' in a tree
> K-I-S-S-I-N-G
> First comes love, then comes marriage
> then comes baby with a baby carriage
> ...



Just gave you a like.
I should stress that I am definitely not overtraining as making sure I remain under 8 miles an hours allows me to visit a multitude of pubs on a 60 mile ride while enjoying the view. Although it does become a bit blurred towards the end (joking mister pig)
On the other hand I probably have got more muscular legs than Rob3rt but I will keep that to myself!!!

.


----------



## Rob3rt (2 May 2014)

brand said:


> Just gave you a like.
> I should stress that I am definitely not overtraining as making sure I remain under 8 miles an hours allows me to visit a multitude of pubs on a 60 mile ride while enjoying the view. Although it does become a bit blurred towards the end (joking mister pig)
> * On the other hand I probably have got more muscular legs than Rob3rt but I will keep that to myself!!!*
> 
> .



You probably do, it is no secret I have skinny legs!


----------



## brand (2 May 2014)

Rob3rt said:


> It is absolutely the case that I did not feel that I needed to "back it up", the reason being that the definition of overtraining and over reaching is well known and if not known, it is adequately accessible in order for any interested party to look it up within a minute or two (in probably less time than it would take for me to explain) and realise for themselves why your post was incorrect.
> 
> For reference, "2para"'s workload would equate to about 900 training stress score (TSS) with an intensity factor (IF) of about 0.6, if his description of the activity is indeed representative of what he was actually doing.



Narh you read to many books. Your overtraining when you are not recovering each day and your times start to go down day after day. You also you start to feel ruff even to the extent that you don't fancy a beer. Obviously the latter is gross overtraining. Overtraining of course isn't always too many miles you could reduce miles and cycle faster and still end up overtraining. Stop reading books and feel your body but not while watching porn!!!!
Reading to many books is also overtraining but in this case your brain.


----------



## 50000tears (2 May 2014)

brand said:


> Narh you read to many books. Your overtraining when you are not recovering each day and your times start to go down day after day. You also you start to feel ruff even to the extent that you don't fancy a beer. Obviously the latter is gross overtraining. Overtraining of course isn't always too many miles you could reduce miles and cycle faster and still end up overtraining. Stop reading books and feel your body but not while watching porn!!!!
> Reading to many books is also overtraining but in this case your brain.



For the reasons Robert has already stated this is wrong and entirely misleading. Before putting statements down that may misinform others you should really be checking your facts and your own understanding of how training works.


----------



## uclown2002 (2 May 2014)

brand said:


> Narh you read to many books. Your overtraining when you are not recovering each day and your times start to go down day after day. You also you start to feel ruff even to the extent that you don't fancy a beer. Obviously the latter is gross overtraining. Overtraining of course isn't always too many miles you could reduce miles and cycle faster and still end up overtraining. Stop reading books and feel your body but not while watching porn!!!!
> Reading to many books is also overtraining but in this case your brain.


Troll


----------



## Pat "5mph" (2 May 2014)

User13710 said:


> He speaks as someone who keeps his speed below 8 mph. I think so.


Still faster than me 

@Rob3rt please quantify short, medium, long term.
Not training for anything btw, just interested because I'm still tired from last week's forum ride 
Rob3rt said: "It occurs when your workload exceeds your ability to recover, and not in the short term, in the medium to long term!"


----------



## Rob3rt (3 May 2014)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Still faster than me
> 
> @Rob3rt please quantify short, medium, long term.
> Not training for anything btw, just interested because I'm still tired from last week's forum ride
> Rob3rt said: "It occurs when your workload exceeds your ability to recover, and not in the short term, in the medium to long term!"



It can't be quantified in an absolute sense since people recover at different rates.

Short term, day's (i.e. if you train hard for a few days on the trot, you will become tired, ache, performance might drop, but you are not overtrained), maybe even a few weeks (similar to with the days scenario, a training block lasting several weeks can leave you feeling pretty bad too).

Medium to long term would likely be several weeks to months.

A distinct difference between overtraining and over reaching is seeing what happens when you ease back, if you train properly (for you) after a hard block (in which you may experience some things that lots of people think mean you are overtrained) when you ease up for a week or two, you will recover and performance will improve beyond what it was previously. Typically with over training it will not, the recovery will take a disproportionate amount of time and fitness will not increase.

If you are interested do a little reading on training periodization.


----------



## brand (3 May 2014)

User13710 said:


> He speaks as someone who keeps his speed below 8 mph. I think so.



True but my 2 Carradice C rear panniers are sometimes full of apples or Sloes or elderberries (light really) or cider (which sometimes gets lighter if it explodes) and if lucks is in a Muntjac swapcey.
And sometimes I pull a trailer full of wood or apples but no nobody ever gives me a swapcey of Roe deer for the apple but I do swap them for beer.
Life is sweet on the Wolds. Townies your life is sh*t!


----------



## brand (3 May 2014)

Rob3rt said:


> It can't be quantified in an absolute sense since people recover at different rates.
> 
> Short term, day's (i.e. if you train hard for a few days on the trot, you will become tired, ache, performance might drop, but you are not overtrained), maybe even a few weeks (similar to with the days scenario, a training block lasting several weeks can leave you feeling pretty bad too).
> 
> ...



Yep when I used to do a 3 day weight training routine twice a week (instead of the normal once a week) I had huge muscles although they were invisible ones! and I had difficulty lifting a cup of tea.

"You need to feel the inner you" There you go that last statement means we both talk bollocks.

As an aside
On the 12 mile wibly wobly cycle ride home last night, with my head down and arse up and my panniers full of all sorts of goodies, I managed to put in a better than average time. I was home by 1.45am. I would have done better despite having no problems with Badgers If it had not been a top night for doggers. They love a starry clear moonlit night I think it enchase the romanticism in there relationship BUT they should not drive off with steamed up windows!!


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## Pikey (5 May 2014)

brand said:


> True but my 2 Carradice C rear panniers are sometimes full of apples or Sloes or elderberries (light really) or cider (which sometimes gets lighter if it explodes) and if lucks is in a Muntjac swapcey.
> And sometimes I pull a trailer full of wood or apples but no nobody ever gives me a swapcey of Roe deer for the apple but I do swap them for beer.
> Life is sweet on the Wolds. Townies your life is sh*t!



Wtf? I love this post, it's made my morning!


----------



## brand (5 May 2014)

Pikey said:


> Wtf? I love this post, it's made my morning!


Pikey??? Not great a choice of names Unless you live in a caravan and collect scrap metal.
PS I was going to offer you some apples to make apple sauce to go with the pig BUT pig appears to be a rabbit (I am on a 7" tablet). I would suggest a Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall recipe of pork and rabbit stew which I highly recommend
http://www.channel4.com/4food/recipes/chefs/hugh-fearnley-whittingstall/rabbit_stew
I can of course supply the cider although it doesn't travel well!


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## NormanD (5 May 2014)

What do you mean you people have flat areas to do base training  I must live in the wrong part of the country


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## Pikey (5 May 2014)

brand said:


> Pikey??? Not great a choice of names Unless you live in a caravan and collect scrap metal.
> PS I was going to offer you some apples to make apple sauce to go with the pig BUT pig appears to be a rabbit (I am on a 7" tablet). I would suggest a Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall recipe of pork and rabbit stew which I highly recommend
> http://www.channel4.com/4food/recipes/chefs/hugh-fearnley-whittingstall/rabbit_stew
> I can of course supply the cider although it doesn't travel well!



Ok, erm, it was meant appreciatively as a fellow rural dweller, no offence meant, but never mind.

Hey, knock my user name and heritage, feel free, but leave the bunny out of it or I might be making a big pot of long pig and apple stew...


----------



## brand (5 May 2014)

Pikey said:


> Ok, erm, it was meant appreciatively as a fellow rural dweller, no offence meant, but never mind.
> 
> Hey, knock my user name and heritage, feel free, but leave the bunny out of it or I might be making a big pot of long pig and apple stew...


No offence meant. Personally I like bunnies although possibly not in the same way you do!
Reference Pikey just letting you know, in case you didn't know that it is a deragotary name for a traveller!
How do you put your location/photos in the box?


----------



## JasonHolder (6 May 2014)

Cuchilo said:


> I'm no every day guy baby
> I understand that you are doing hills after a few flat days but I still cant see the point in hitting 100 miles on flats .


Oh really? LOL do a few hundred milers flat and then start adding in elevation.


----------



## JasonHolder (6 May 2014)

jack smith said:


> Hilarious aren't they basically he is terrible and slow and covers it up with big ride names haha


Yes im just terrible. First time back, 900miles in 28days.
I can name a handful on this forum who do (900 right up to 3 times that) they know who they are.


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## Hacienda71 (6 May 2014)

Have you ever thought of anger management?


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## JasonHolder (6 May 2014)

Hacienda71 said:


> Have you ever thought of anger management?


Not seriously no lol


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## vorsprung (6 May 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> Yes im just terrible. First time back, 900miles in 28days.
> I can name a handful on this forum who do (900 right up to 3 times that) they know who they are.
> The rest of you gobshites do sod all but make me rage. Take your 400 miles and talk bully somewhere else.



I must say this whole discussion, from page 1 to here has not been a meeting of minds

And I say this as someone that can see both sides


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## JasonHolder (6 May 2014)

vorsprung said:


> I must say this whole discussion, from page 1 to here has not been a meeting of minds
> 
> And I say this as someone that can see both sides


I agree.


----------



## Rob3rt (6 May 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> Yes im just terrible. First time back, 900miles in 28days.
> I can name a handful on this forum who do (900 right up to 3 times that) they know who they are.
> The rest of you gobshites do sod all but make me rage. Take your 400 miles and talk bully somewhere else.



At the end of the day, mileage means very little, it is the time you dedicate to training/riding and what you do with that time that makes the most significant difference.

If the thread had started off a little less ridiculous, maybe some of that would have come out without all of the bickering (guilty as charged).


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## jack smith (6 May 2014)

400 miles for someone who is constantly busy monday-friday and that is just these past 28 days where ive been off the road bike isnt too bad for me  mot to mention i need to squeeze in running swimming and an extra part time job ontop of what i already do i only started cycling last august


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## Peter Armstrong (6 May 2014)

Base mileage is utter crap (For me ) For my body to react and change I need to inflict some pain. Hill Sprints anyone?


----------



## Rob3rt (6 May 2014)

Peter Armstrong said:


> Base mileage is utter crap (For me ) For my body to react and change I need to inflict some pain. Hill Sprints anyone?



I would bet it isn't necessarily that base mileage is crap for you, I'd bet it is the overall training composition when you include more base mileage that slows your progress. Training composition is the key to making progress, not individual sessions. Although it could also be your understanding of base mileage that is the culprit 

I always shunned low intensity work, determined to make as much pain as possible in a 6 hour training week, it worked to a degree, to the point I went from never raced to being in the top 15-20 in open time trial events with fields of 100+ riders, top 3 regularly in club events with fields of 30-40 riders and a good result in the National HC, i.e. went from nothing to fairly good in about 9 months of racing.

However since I started working with a coach, my training composition has changed a lot, even though many of the key sessions still remain in one guise or another, it still doesn't include much low intensity work, but has less overall time spent riding on the limit and I've only been outside the top 10 in one race this year and that was because I stood around taking my jacket off on the start line and set off 12 seconds late! Even with that penalty, I went over a minute faster than I ever had done in a 10 before and subtracting the penalty, it was a 30+ mph ride!

It is about knowing how hard to go, how long to go that hard and what to do when you aren't going hard!


----------



## Peter Armstrong (6 May 2014)

I probs do about 6 hour training week, If I feel fresh I mite say... blast some hill sprints, the next day I mite do 10 mile as fast as I can, no Sprints, next day maybe easy with some flat random sprints thrown in. Then at weekend a good clud ride or race. Basicly no structure just going off what I feel like doing and mixing it up. But no base miles for sure, Sufferfest HITT videos over winter pushed me from sportives to crit racing.


----------



## JasonHolder (6 May 2014)

jack smith said:


> 400 miles for someone who is constantly busy monday-friday and that is just these past 28 days where ive been off the road bike isnt too bad for me  mot to mention i need to squeeze in running swimming and an extra part time job ontop of what i already do i only started cycling last august


Absolutely not having a plough at you here mucka. Airbornes are tough as fark regardless. 

Robert i agree. However- in the first month or 2 you cant be doin quality intensive stuff im sure you conceed that.
And that follows nicely to mr armstrong, willing to be proved wrong that when you started ridig with a plan you A either had many miles in your legs or B did many miles to get ready for all these hard sessiins that now make you so good". If you put these sessions onto someone without a base. They burn out and die.


----------



## Peter Armstrong (6 May 2014)

And die, Jesus!


----------



## JasonHolder (6 May 2014)

Peter Armstrong said:


> And die, Jesus!



Good god you are so pedantic


----------



## Rob3rt (6 May 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> Absolutely not having a plough at you here mucka. Airbornes are tough as **** regardless.
> 
> Robert i agree. However- in the first month or 2 you cant be doin quality intensive stuff im sure you conceed that.
> And that follows nicely to mr armstrong, willing to be proved wrong that when you started ridig with a plan you A either had many miles in your legs or B did many miles to get ready for all these hard sessiins that now make you so good". If you put these sessions onto someone without a base. They burn out and die.



I haven't stated otherwise. However, I would say, what some people call HIIT is not the same thing I would call HIIT. I would also say, whilst newbies or people who have had a long lay off should not jump in with very high intensity riding, there is no harm in riding hard in moderation and there are various ways to build a "base", no need to just ride around clocking up hundreds of junk miles, which is essentially what you are advocating.


----------



## JasonHolder (6 May 2014)

I am not advocating junk miles. I never did outline anything in my very first post. Re-read it. I appreciate what you have to say rob3rt. 

I'll be the first to admit smart intensity during base is wise, as well as necessary because weeks of boring junk would kill mind. However even then, since when did HR zone 2 endurance rides become junk. You're all turning an endurance sport into a joke of 60min HIT crit workouts who can't manage a hundred miler without asking bone questions about what food what drink etc. If you did the mileage you would know.


----------



## 400bhp (6 May 2014)




----------



## brand (6 May 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> Absolutely not having a plough at you here mucka. Airbornes are tough as **** regardless.
> 
> Robert i agree. However- in the first month or 2 you cant be doin quality intensive stuff im sure you conceed that.
> And that follows nicely to mr armstrong, willing to be proved wrong that when you started ridig with a plan you A either had many miles in your legs or B did many miles to get ready for all these hard sessiins that now make you so good". If you put these sessions onto someone without a base. They burn out and die.


HAT?


----------



## JasonHolder (6 May 2014)

brand said:


> HAT?


No both para reg blokes


----------



## potsy (6 May 2014)

Why is this not a 'featured' thread yet?


----------



## Peter Armstrong (6 May 2014)

I can do small hard 10-15 mile sessions all week then easy bust out a 100 mile rolling in zone 2/3 anytime,


----------



## Spinney (6 May 2014)

*Mod message*: please stick to the topic, otherwise the thread will be locked.


----------



## brand (6 May 2014)

Spinney said:


> *Mod message*: please stick to the topic, otherwise the thread will be locked.



Me?


----------



## 400bhp (6 May 2014)

Spinney said:


> *Mod message*: please stick to the topic, otherwise the thread will be locked.



Sorry, what exactly is the topic?

Big picture - don't get it.


----------



## brand (6 May 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> I am not advocating junk miles. I never did


What are junk miles? If you mean going to the pub and back then you clearly you have no idea how hard that can be, specially on the way back.


----------



## Cuchilo (6 May 2014)

I have no idea what junk miles are but then I don't know what all the other sayings are .
I guess I am training to get better on my rides but not to prove a point to anyone . I'm not even doing it to prove a point to myself as I know I can work hard if I have too .
I enjoy the rides and yes I would love to compete at some point . I would assume my rides are " base miles " but now " junk miles " have been introduced I'm confused even more .


----------



## JasonHolder (7 May 2014)

400bhp said:


> Sorry, what exactly is the topic?
> 
> Big picture - don't get it.


Look at the original post


----------



## Rob3rt (7 May 2014)

Cuchilo said:


> I have no idea what junk miles are but then I don't know what all the other sayings are .
> I guess I am training to get better on my rides but not to prove a point to anyone . I'm not even doing it to prove a point to myself as I know I can work hard if I have too .
> I enjoy the rides and yes I would love to compete at some point . I would assume my rides are " base miles " but now " junk miles " have been introduced I'm confused even more .



Junk miles is simply a term used to describe miles done for the sake of miles, it offers very little physiological benefit yet takes up loads of time, i.e. it is a waste of time, it is junk. Why ride around for 6 hours when you can get the same benefit or greater in 90-120 minutes... (I am talking in training terms here, not just riding for "enjoyment")


----------



## Peter Armstrong (7 May 2014)

Rob3rt said:


> I would bet it isn't necessarily that base mileage is crap for you, I'd bet it is the overall training composition when you include more base mileage that slows your progress. Training composition is the key to making progress, not individual sessions. Although it could also be your understanding of base mileage that is the culprit
> 
> I always shunned low intensity work, determined to make as much pain as possible in a 6 hour training week, it worked to a degree, to the point I went from never raced to being in the top 15-20 in open time trial events with fields of 100+ riders, top 3 regularly in club events with fields of 30-40 riders and a good result in the National HC, i.e. went from nothing to fairly good in about 9 months of racing.
> 
> ...


 
I tried to understand this but what do you mean by Training composition?


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## Rob3rt (7 May 2014)

Peter Armstrong said:


> I tried to understand this but what do you mean by Training composition?



In short, how the individual components of your training fit together in order to elicit the desired changes i.e. what sessions you do, when you do them and in what proportion of the total training time you do them for. I'll give an example when I am on a computer rather than my phone.


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## Rob3rt (7 May 2014)

Rob3rt said:


> In short, how the individual components of your training fit together in order to elicit the desired changes i.e. what sessions you do, when you do them and in what proportion of the total training time you do them for. I'll give an example when I am on a computer rather than my phone.



Okay, I'm at a pc now so will try to explain what I mean a little clearer hopefully). Quite frankly, it is a hard thing to get into the detail on a forum post, but there are tonnes of books and websites out there on training periodization etc which will explain this much more clearly than I can, I am just trying to put it simply and in laymans terms!

Generally, many people will just look on the internet or ask a club mate, or other racer what sessions they do then go and do them. This means they will likely go away doing some combination of 2x20 min threshold efforts, 6x3 min VO2 max efforts, some shorter high intensity efforts, maybe a long ride on the weekend etc, all classic sessions that most people do some version of. All good workouts in their own right. BUT, what they won't consider is, the purpose of each session, if they should they be doing it in the 1st place (are they at a stage they can take the load? Is it a session that will benefit their discipline? e.g. a good session for a track sprinter won't be a good session for a time triallist), when they should be doing each session (I mean both short term, as in where in the week they should be doing it, and long term, i,e. when in the season they should be doing it), how each session will subsequently effect their ability to complete other sessions in the week and loads of other things.

When I talk about training composition, what I mean is really answering these questions (and others) and piecing together your training accordingly, i.e. choosing the right sessions to suit your aims and working out when to do them, both long and short term.

A couple of examples.

Short Term:
You might have decided on 3 key sessions in a week (you've chosen your sessions), say a VO2 max session, a threshold session and a tempo session. You will want to do them in an order that lets you complete these key sessions to the required intensity, for example, you may choose to do the VO2 max session the day after a rest day, so you are fresh and can hit the highest numbers, then do the threshold session the day after, since you should still be able to hit the required numbers, even carrying a little fatigue, however, if you do the threshold session the day after a rest and follow it with a VO2 max session the next day, your top end power will be compromised and chances are your final few reps will be below the intensity required.

Long Term:
Long term, training composition mostly refer to what type of session you give emphasis at different times in the year. For example should you be doing VO2 max intervals in December when you are not racing until March? Maybe one session every few weeks would be good but the emphasis will not be on this kind of work instead the emphasis will be on something steadier (but not pissing about at 10 mph), i.e. 60 min sweetspot efforts thus altering the composition of your training in favour of longer less intense efforts, as you approach the racing season you would make your training more and more race like i.e. emphasising efforts that simulate the efforts you will be doing in your races i.e. the composition will change from mostly steady longer efforts with a bit of high intensity, to mostly higher intensity work and less long efforts, you would probably also reduce volume, adding in more rest.


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## Peter Armstrong (7 May 2014)

Boomshakalaka!
Thank you for that, kind of what I’m doing now. (Ish but with more spriting)
“I probs do about 6 hour training week, If I feel fresh I mite say... blast some hill sprints, (VO2 MAX SESSION) the next day I mite do 10 mile as fast as I can, no Sprints, (THRESHOLD SESSION) next day maybe easy with some flat random sprints thrown in(TEMP SESSION). Then at weekend a good clud ride or race. Basicly no structure just going off what I feel like doing and mixing it up. But no base miles for sure, Sufferfest HITT videos over winter pushed me from sportives to crit racing.”
And seen as tho I’m just doing crits at the mo, I only have short term goals.


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## JasonHolder (7 May 2014)

Rob3rt said:


> Okay, I'm at a pc now so will try to explain what I mean a little clearer hopefully). Quite frankly, it is a hard thing to get into the detail on a forum post, but there are tonnes of books and websites out there on training periodization etc which will explain this much more clearly than I can, I am just trying to put it simply and in laymans terms!
> 
> Generally, many people will just look on the internet or ask a club mate, or other racer what sessions they do then go and do them. This means they will likely go away doing some combination of 2x20 min threshold efforts, 6x3 min VO2 max efforts, some shorter high intensity efforts, maybe a long ride on the weekend etc, all classic sessions that most people do some version of. All good workouts in their own right. BUT, what they won't consider is, the purpose of each session, if they should they be doing it in the 1st place (are they at a stage they can take the load? Is it a session that will benefit their discipline? e.g. a good session for a track sprinter won't be a good session for a time triallist), when they should be doing each session (I mean both short term, as in where in the week they should be doing it, and long term, i,e. when in the season they should be doing it), how each session will subsequently effect their ability to complete other sessions in the week and loads of other things.
> 
> ...


Youre a great poster on here rob3rt. Thanks for taking the time and adding value!  personally as a beginner again, I'll speak as a beginner. The classic 2x20 etc you think a club member would recommend is absolutely right, good workouts depending on what youre after Too. however my body is not ready for that, and I wouldn't expect any other begginers to be half as ready.


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## Rob3rt (7 May 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> Youre a great poster on here rob3rt. Thanks for taking the time and adding value!  personally as a beginner again, I'll speak as a beginner. The classic 2x20 etc you think a club member would recommend is absolutely right, good workouts depending on what youre after Too. however my body is not ready for that, and I wouldn't expect any other begginers to be half as ready.



A complete beginner might not want to undergo a full 2x20 minute effort at threshold, however most people could ride at a sustainably hard pace (the sort of pace where you can speak only a few words at a time, as a crude measure) for 20 minutes.

Then there are also ways to progress to a full 2x20 threshold effort, such as either doing shorter efforts (2x10 mins, 3x7 minutes etc) and increasing the number of reps and/or increasing the duration of each rep (ideally a combination of both) until a full session can be completed. Or they could do it at a reduced intensity. Maybe 20 minutes at tempo then keep increasing the duration until they can go an hour, then up intensity and do 2 lots of 20 minutes at Sweetspot instead of the hour at tempo etc.

These methods are at least equally as effective, if not more so, especially if speed is of concern and do not take up huge amounts of time.


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## 50000tears (7 May 2014)

I will chip in as I can class myself as a beginner as defined by Jason. I have only been cycling since late June last year and only training since late September.

In September I signed up for an epic sportive which I didn't just want to complete but do so at a good average speed. As one of those time limited cyclists doing lots of long rides was never an option so I had to find the best way to get as fit as I could with the time available.

I did feel that there was a need to do longer rides when I could, but this was partly for gaining a training base and partly so that I could build up my distance in prep for the sportive. I still believe that having a good number of miles in the legs is the best base for building on when you do then move on to do HIIT work.

Training through the winter, with all the wet weather we had, did mean that interval work made up a lot of my training. At first this frustrated me until I quickly realised that I was able to work far harder in these efforts than I ever could on the road. The intervals were often very very tough to get through and there were a few I was unable to complete. And as Robert pointed out almost all of them would involve increasing the interval length over the weeks. I know from my progress that these sessions gave a big bang for the time spent.

Over a 7 month period my training was probably 60% or thereabouts interval work with 40% on the road of which about half of that were long steady miles. The rest were 20-30 mile efforts at tempo or slightly faster. Not going to suggest that my training was always optimal but I know that my fitness and efforts I can do on a bike now are a world away from what I could do just 6 months ago. Interestingly enough, although I can say with certainty that HIIT work has played a huge roll in this, I am ironically in a purely base building phase of training again, in an attempt to better condition my legs as well as further improve fitness, where I am doing 150 miles+ of mostly tempo riding per week but some at level 2. This is just for a few weeks though then I will switch back to a chunk of interval type training.

My personal conclusion is that HIIT without a base of good general fitness is progress built on shifting sand where it all could collapse at any time. But also that nothing but long steady miles is both a waste of time and far from optimal in terms of progression.


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## uclown2002 (7 May 2014)

It would appear I've done 6787 junk miles in 2014.


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## JasonHolder (7 May 2014)

uclown2002 said:


> It would appear I've done 6787 junk miles in 2014.


I just cant understand it lol


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## Hacienda71 (7 May 2014)

I like junk miles. You can have a fry up or cake half way through a junk session.


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## 50000tears (7 May 2014)

uclown2002 said:


> It would appear I've done 6787 junk miles in 2014.



And I haven't done any so that means I _should _be fitter than you!! I just don't get it .............


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## brand (9 May 2014)

uclown2002 said:


> It would appear I've done 6787 junk miles in 2014.


So you cycle to the pub a lot!! Respect. 
I used to regularly do ride on a relatively flat road with minimal traffic (at least after the 9.30am school run) where I simply looked at my heart rate monitor and worked at 90 % maximum heart rate up to or greater than 100% for 10 minutes followed by minimal effort until it came down to 60% (I think that is right) and then back up again. I doubt that was very healthy (there is difference between health and fitness) and when I get back into it (if my knee is capable) I will do it again although I think I will probably try to keep it below 80%. Now does that count as quality miles? Note I did it for no more than 20 miles so as to cool down for the next 5 miles before getting to the pub. I am sure you can guess that the return would not count as quality miles?


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## brand (9 May 2014)

Hacienda71 said:


> I like junk miles. You can have a fry up or cake half way through a junk session.




Therefore not get heart burn?


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## Joshua Plumtree (9 May 2014)

uclown2002 said:


> It would appear I've done 6787 junk miles in 2014.



If you're Chris Froome perhaps; for the rest of us who just love to cycle, no mile is a junk mile.


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## JasonHolder (22 May 2014)

montage said:


> Can I hear a hallelujah!
> 
> ...careful where you preach from!
> 
> ...


@50000tears
Read this thread thread again. This post in particular for pacing and intensity for base. You can go too easy in base. Just keep it comfortable. I would get a HRM if you're struggling with intensity. Pretty please get an HRm.


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