# Is a hub gear less bother than a derailleur?



## Pale Rider (16 Feb 2013)

Hub gears are said to be lower maintenance than derailleurs, but is that true?

I like to keep the bike maintained properly, but I'm not obsessional about it.

I've never done much to the derailleur bikes I've had, basically the occasional clean and cable tensioning, so I wonder if I would do a lot less to a hub geared bike.

It's a general question, but in my case it's between XT derailleurs or an 11-speed Alfine hub on a hybrid bike for leisure use.


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## Chris S (16 Feb 2013)

I don't know about Alfine 11-speeds but Sturmey Archer 3-speeds usually outlast the bike. SRAM (Sachs) have an even better reputation, probably because they're manufactured to a higher standard. They change perfectly every time.

I think there is one dodgy Shimano hub but I'm not sure which one it is. I'm sure somebody will be along shortly to let us know.


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## Bromptonaut (16 Feb 2013)

The Alfine would add quite a lot of weight cp a derrailleur. While I love the hub gears on my Bromptons I don't think I'd choose one on a utility bike where dr is possible and far enough above road to be out of danger. Yes it needs a bit more maitenance but only to extent of spray of lube and a good clean now and then.

Hubs can be finicky to set up and a pain when punctured.


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## Herzog (16 Feb 2013)

Bromptonaut said:


> Hubs can be finicky to set up and a pain when punctured.


 
Indeed! My winter bike used to have a hub gearing. Getting a puncture in the depths of winter with semi numb hands, trying to undo all of the gubbins that come with a hub gear is not fun.


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## snorri (16 Feb 2013)

Derailleurs are great if you have some sort of fetish for chain and cog cleaning and gear adjustment tweaking, otherwise, hub gears are the way to go.


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## Mushroomgodmat (16 Feb 2013)

my wife has a hub gear on her run around - its true its probably less work than a standard rear derailleur adjustment is hardly rocket science.


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## Shortmember (16 Feb 2013)

Chris S said:


> I don't know about Alfine 11-speeds but Sturmey Archer 3-speeds usually outlast the bike. SRAM (Sachs) have an even better reputation, probably because they're manufactured to a higher standard. They change perfectly every time.
> 
> I think there is one dodgy Shimano hub but I'm not sure which one it is. I'm sure somebody will be along shortly to let us know.


 
I think the dodgy hub you're referring to is the Nexus 8.I had a Carrera Subway fitted with one and it
lasted just 12 months of easy commuting and then it literally fell apart.


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## Rohloff_Brompton_Rider (16 Feb 2013)

I had a bwr on my last Brompton and it was a pain in the ass from the first week until the last 200 km (of the 19,000 miles it did) i did with pennine_paul. I constantly had to strip and clean/ replace the main bearings. The inner tolerances were too tight to run with grease. It only worked with a little bit of thin oil.

I've now got a standard sturmey 3 speed hub, lubed with grease and its great so far, it has a reputation of never needing to be touched for tens of thousands of miles. I'm going to couple it with a schlumpf mountain drive I've got on order to give me 6 evenly spaced gears.


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## Night Train (16 Feb 2013)

[QUOTE 2316956, member: 259"]No, definitely the Nexus 7.[/quote]
Isn't that the one with the very large diameter loose bearing in one side that has a dust shield that traps water in the bearing resulting in corrosion in a bearing that can't be changed?
Daft design.

I much prefer enclosed gears for the lack of maintenance and being able to shift while stopped.

I am very, very tempted by the BB gearbox, particularly on a recumbent trike.
http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Pinion-gearbox-first-ride-2011.html


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## gaz (16 Feb 2013)

Having used a hub gear and a single speed quite a bit in the last 3 years and having recently gone back to a derailure setup for my commuter. I can safely say it's much easier to get the wheel out with a derailure.


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## Pale Rider (16 Feb 2013)

Thanks for the replies.

It seems from a maintenance point of view there's no strong reason to choose one system or the other, so I can make my selection on the one I most fancy using.

Ease of wheel removal is a good point, but one I'm not too worried about.

My puncture per mile rate is probably the same as everyone else, but since I don't do thousands of miles a year, punctures don't come around very often.


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## Moodyman (16 Feb 2013)

I own a bike with Alfine 8 and a two with derailleurs. The hub geared bike is far lower maintenance, but if you live in an area with varying terrain you're often not in quite the right gear due to the gaps in-between gears.

Also if both bikes are fitted with mudguards then there is little difference in maintenance though hub geared is still slightly quicker to clean.

Also bear in mind that hubs need an annual overhaul which not everyone can do.

Whilst wheel removal can be tricky I use puncture resistant tyres and punctures are very rare.


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## SatNavSaysStraightOn (16 Feb 2013)

We have a bike each with Rohloff hubs, removing the rear wheel involved 1 extra action, turn a knock to disconnect the external gear changer and you can then remove the wheel as normal (though our wheels are not on quick release levers, but need an allen key instead), so I guess it depends on the bike on how easy it is to remove the rear wheel.

As for less maintenance - definitely and parts last much longer as well. As standard KMC chain on my rohloff hub bike lasted me 14,500km cycling over the course of 1 year. the front & rear sprockets were changed at 5,000km due to changing terrain (from flat to mountains) so the set I wore out lasted 9,500km before needing changing. This included at least 1/3 of that time on dirt roads/tracks. Oil changes took 10-15 mins per bike every 5,000km.


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## Pale Rider (17 Feb 2013)

@Moodyman

Gearing is a thought, but I don't change a lot so should be OK with 11.

I had read something about an overhaul/oil change, as you say I doubt many bike shops can do it properly, so that could be a consideration.

@SatNavSaysStraightOn

By common consent, the Rohloff hub is far superior to the others, so I don't think we are comparing like with like.

A Rohloff and belt drive appeals to me greatly, but paying for such a set-up could be a problem.


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## Mary Poppins (21 Feb 2013)

Hello bike people. I have recently bought a genuine dutch bike with 8 speed sturmey archer hub gears. I took it for a test ride and found it very difficult to get past gear 5 on the flat and found it very difficult to get up a very moderate incline in 1st gear. Now I'm not the fittest but could it be that the gears are set too high? Can they be adjusted so that the lowest gear is even lower. I know nothing about gears! Please help!


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## Ningishzidda (21 Feb 2013)

If hub gears were lighter, it was easier to remove the wheel and the owner could adjust the individual ratios, they'd be on every bike in the Tour de France, but they're not.


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## Ningishzidda (21 Feb 2013)

Mary Poppins said:


> Hello bike people. I have recently bought a genuine dutch bike with 8 speed sturmey archer hub gears. I took it for a test ride and found it very difficult to get past gear 5 on the flat and found it very difficult to get up a very moderate incline in 1st gear. Now I'm not the fittest but could it be that the gears are set too high? Can they be adjusted so that the lowest gear is even lower. I know nothing about gears! Please help!


 
Either, change the front ring for a smaller one, change the rear sprocket for a larger one, or both of these.
Tip. Gear 5 ought to be 52" +/- 2". This then makes the middle ratio equivalent to Starley's Safety Rover. It requires the rear sprocket to have half the number of teeth of the front ring.


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## avalon (21 Feb 2013)

I don't know much about modern hub gears but when I was a bicycle mechanic (over 30 years ago) I repaired a few sturmey archer hub gears, the damage was, as far as I can remember, always due to bad or no maintenance. With correct adjustment and a good quality oil they will go on for years without letting you down.


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## al78 (21 Feb 2013)

Ningishzidda said:


> If hub gears were lighter, it was easier to remove the wheel and the owner could adjust the individual ratios, they'd be on every bike in the Tour de France, but they're not.


 
Hub gears are aimed at the utility market, not racing. Just because they are sub-optimal for racing doesn't mean they aren't better in other applications.


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## snorri (21 Feb 2013)

Ningishzidda said:


> If hub gears were lighter, it was easier to remove the wheel and the owner could adjust the individual ratios, they'd be on every bike in the Tour de France, but they're not.


 If I had a support vehicle with bike mechanics and a full set of spares following me every mile of the way...........................................................


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## Rickshaw Phil (21 Feb 2013)

Mary Poppins said:


> Hello bike people. I have recently bought a genuine dutch bike with 8 speed sturmey archer hub gears. I took it for a test ride and found it very difficult to get past gear 5 on the flat and found it very difficult to get up a very moderate incline in 1st gear. Now I'm not the fittest but could it be that the gears are set too high? Can they be adjusted so that the lowest gear is even lower. I know nothing about gears! Please help!


Hi and .

As it is the 8 speed Sturmey Archer, is is very possible it has been set up over-geared.

The 8 speed hub interested me so I've been taking a look at the specifications with the idea of building up something special of my own at some time (I can't afford it but I can dream.)

This hub was designed to be used on small wheel bikes such as folders and shoppers so 1st gear is 1:1 ratio and all the others are geared up from there. (Specifications here) This is different from most other hubs where it's the middle gear that is 1:1.

What it means is that you have to gear it low to start with to get a nice range. For the build I had in mind I'd have had to use a 28 tooth chainring and the largest available sprocket, which is 25 tooth. (Giving a range of approx 30 to 98 gear inches for those who'd like to know).

If you count the number of teeth on your chainwheel and the sprocket, it's possible to work out what your gearing is currently.


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## snailracer (21 Feb 2013)

Mary Poppins said:


> Hello bike people. I have recently bought a genuine dutch bike with 8 speed sturmey archer hub gears. I took it for a test ride and found it very difficult to get past gear 5 on the flat and found it very difficult to get up a very moderate incline in 1st gear. Now I'm not the fittest but could it be that the gears are set too high? Can they be adjusted so that the lowest gear is even lower. I know nothing about gears! Please help!


If you are having trouble engaging the high gears, it's possible the gear shifter cable is grossly misaligned and you are missing several of the lower gears - it would also explain why you are having difficulty climbing in 1st gear (because it might actually be 3rd gear!). Try adjusting the shifter cable to see if you can get all 8 gears.


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## tyred (21 Feb 2013)

The Sturmey AW is definitely reliable, I can't comment on any other as I haven't owned them (yet!).

To prove the point, I did 40 hilly miles on my 63 year old AG (AW with dynamo attached) hub on Sunday. 

I've grown to love the SA hub and now that I think about it, I haven't rode any of my derailleur geared bikes since last August.

An AW with correct (for the rider and terrain) gear ratios will cover about 95% of the cycling most people will ever do and require a lot less maintenance than any of those irritating dangling things that seem to have been designed to collect as much muck as possible.


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## Mary Poppins (21 Feb 2013)

Thank you for your reply, would I need to take it to a specialist bike shop to have the gears adjusted?


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## SatNavSaysStraightOn (21 Feb 2013)

Mary Poppins said:


> Thank you for your reply, would I need to take it to a specialist bike shop to have the gears adjusted?


probably is the best answer, but if you can give us a rough idea where in the country you are, there may be one or two of us that can help you.


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## Ningishzidda (21 Feb 2013)

tyred said:


> The Sturmey AW is definitely reliable, I can't comment on any other as I haven't owned them (yet!).
> 
> To prove the point, I did 40 hilly miles on my 63 year old AG (AW with dynamo attached) hub on Sunday.
> 
> ...


 
I'd be Impressed if the bike had 53 ring and 15 sprocket.


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## snailracer (21 Feb 2013)

http://sheldonbrown.com/sturmey-archer_8-spd.html


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## MacB (21 Feb 2013)

It will depend on how much 'bother' you take with a derailleur setup and how much gear range you want/need. For anything less than a Rohloff or Alfine 11 then you could easily just run a 1x8 or 1x9 derailleur setup. This could be cheap easy and long lasting with minimal maintenance.

I have Rohloff, SRAM I-9, Alfine 8 and did have a Sturmey 3 speed - wheel removal with a hub gear just means an extra step as you need to disconnect the gear cable before removing the wheel in the normal manner. This is easiest with the SRAM I-9, then Rohloff then Alfine 8 and finally SA 3 speed. Both Rohloff and I-9 are so easy as to be not even a consideration and the Alfine isn't far behind. However rohloff then wins out, for me, on being able to have a QR skewer. There is a weight penalty on anything over the 3 speed but this is only significant with a high end derailleur setup, at the lower end of the scale it's a lot less though still there.

If I'm honest you can go through a long list of pros and cons both ways but for me it really came down to riding style. I tend to favour varying cadence and getting out of the saddle in short bursts so that suits a hub gear. But over and above everything else I love the ability to change gear when not pedalling. In fact I probably make most of my gear changes in this way particularly on familiar routes when freewheeling in preparation for something I know is coming.

Savings on maintenance and replacement parts are a cumulative effect that builds up over time. Eventually any hub gear can pay for itself but this can take years in the case of a rohloff. It also may never be viable if you're talking a simple 1xX derailleur drive train.

Right now a rohloff wheel and all fittings would set you back about £1k an Alfine 11 about £5-600 and an 8 about £250-300. I'm still wary of the A11 though, I recently ordered an A8 and got an A11 in error I was then given the option of keeping the A11 for the price of the A8....I returned it for the A8.


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## snorri (21 Feb 2013)

Pale Rider said:


> had read something about an overhaul/oil change, as you say I doubt many bike shops can do it properly, so that could be a consideration.


The oil change is a simple enough job, annually or every 5000km., instructions come with the oil. Overhauls should not be necessary, just the usual checks of cables.


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## tyred (21 Feb 2013)

Ningishzidda said:


> I'd be Impressed if the bike had 53 ring and 15 sprocket.


No! I generally gear my Sturmey bikes to have a 72" top gear. I don't need anything higher on the sort of routes I usually ride. On Sunday, I was riding 44/22 on a 28" wheeled roadster, all 45lb of it. I also have 46/18 on a 20" wheeled folder, 46/22 on 26" wheeled sports roadster and 46/22 on my 3 speed Kalkhoff road/touring bike.


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## Profpointy (21 Feb 2013)

Pale Rider said:


> Hub gears are said to be lower maintenance than derailleurs, but is that true?
> 
> I like to keep the bike maintained properly, but I'm not obsessional about it.
> 
> ...



Have to say, i'm not a believer in hub gears, at least not in the old Sturmey archer 3 speeds, having very nearly lost my bollocks on the crossbar on more than one occasion when the wretched thing slipped out of gear grunting uphill in top. Whilst I may or may not have maintained it that well, I was only a kid, and doing a fraction of the mileage I do now and bought the bike new. And on another, admittely clapped out bike, lost all but third gear with 15 miles of a very hilly 45 mile run left to go - was not fixable either. Not impressed! All that said, a Rohloff is likely a whole different level of quality, but serious wonga.

Hywel


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## Crankarm (21 Feb 2013)

MacB said:


> It will depend on how much 'bother' you take with a derailleur setup and how much gear range you want/need. For anything less than a Rohloff or Alfine 11 then you could easily just run a 1x8 or 1x9 derailleur setup. This could be cheap easy and long lasting with minimal maintenance.
> 
> I have Rohloff, SRAM I-9, Alfine 8 and did have a Sturmey 3 speed - wheel removal with a hub gear just means an extra step as you need to disconnect the gear cable before removing the wheel in the normal manner. This is easiest with the SRAM I-9, then Rohloff then Alfine 8 and finally SA 3 speed. Both Rohloff and I-9 are so easy as to be not even a consideration and the Alfine isn't far behind. However rohloff then wins out, for me, on being able to have a QR skewer. There is a weight penalty on anything over the 3 speed but this is only significant with a high end derailleur setup, at the lower end of the scale it's a lot less though still there.
> 
> ...


 

Great post MacB.

I have seen the Avanti Inc 3 which has an Alfine 11 IHG with belt drive and disc brakes which is tempting me. But the lack of bosses on front fork for pannier rack is not, neither the concentric BB instead of horizontal rear drop outs or the matt blak frame colour.

I am also considering a Surly Troll frame and fork, build myself with Rohloff hub, disc brakes, with chain and full enclosing guard to tkeep crud out. But I emailed SJS about a Rohloff wheel build and they told me I need an axle plate £22 even with horizontal drops out and a solid axle with traditional nuts as QR cannot be used according to SJS. What you think MacB? It's either orange (last year), aubergine purple or black for the frame colour.


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## MacB (21 Feb 2013)

Crankarm said:


> I am also considering a Surly Troll frame and fork, build myself with Rohloff hub, disc brakes, with chain and full enclosing guard to tkeep crud out. But I emailed SJS about a Rohloff wheel build and they told me I need an axle plate £22 even with horizontal drops out and a solid axle with traditional nuts as QR cannot be used according to SJS. What you think MacB? It's either orange (last year), aubergine purple or black for the frame colour.


 
I'm not a fan of the Surly options for hub gears the only one I rated was the Crosscheck with horizontals and rim brakes. Two of my sons have Karate Monkeys with derailleurs which are great bikes. But I did experiment with putting a Rohloff on one to see how it would fair as an allround tourer. You instantly run into issues with the disc brakes and mudguards for wheel removal and the orientation of the OEM2 axle plate adds complexity as well. The rear caliper mount is slotted to move with the wheel but it means you have to be pretty precise with alignment to avoid rubbing. It is improved on later KMs and the Troll etc as earlier models you actually had to loosen the disc brake caliper to remove the wheel in some positions.

That's not to say it doesn't work very well for some it really depends on the level of faff you can/will tolerate. For me the rohloff attraction was immediately diminished by the need for the OEM2 plate and having to go to a nutted axle. So I decided that if I'd shelled out the dosh on a rohloff then I wanted to maximise the benefit and needed a frame appropriate to this. I would actually rather use vertical dropouts and a tensioner than go back to using track ends with a hub gear.

My personal preference would be a swing style vertical dropout, my frames have the Paragon Machineworks Rockers which places the disc caliper between the stays and allows normal rack and guard fittings. Salsa do production frames with their Swing dropouts and with either sort you can opt for a rohloff specific dropout to accommodate the OEM plate. The Salsa ones place the disc caliper on the seatstay as do most of the sliding dropouts which would be my next choice. After that it would be a toss up between vertical dropouts and tensioner or vertical dropouts and eccentric bottom bracket. But mainly because I have an irrational dislike of an EBB. My final choices would be horizontal dropouts and lastly track ends.

I know Shand cycles offer the rocker dropouts as a build option and they have a reputation, though pricetag to match, that I would trust for any sort of build. I did look at seeing if I could modify a Surly to the different dropouts but it worked out to more than it was worth. If you wanted to supply the dropouts yourself I reckon you could get a frame done for about £700 all in but can't see it being much less.

I use Wheelcraft in Scotland for my wheelbuilds and Big Al there is extremely helpful and will advise and keep costs down for you. If I was buying a Surly frame for a Rohloff then I'd go for a LHT disc version and use an OEM2 plate with a chain tensioner or one of the mini EBBs that fit a standard size shell. I have the LHT disc forks on one bike and they are very nice.

For a custom frame or an off the peg that can come with rohloff dropouts there's Shand, Roberts, Dave Yates, Mercian, Argos, Bob Jackson and plenty of others - most of their rohloff offerings will be standard sliding dropouts or EBBs but I'd imagine they could build with a different style of dropout if requested, I know Dave Yates would.


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## Mary Poppins (22 Feb 2013)

SatNavSaysStraightOn said:


> probably is the best answer, but if you can give us a rough idea where in the country you are, there may be one or two of us that can help you.





SatNavSaysStraightOn said:


> probably is the best answer, but if you can give us a rough idea where in the country you are, there may be one or two of us that can help you.


Thanks again. I'm in Leeds, England.


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## SatNavSaysStraightOn (22 Feb 2013)

Mary Poppins said:


> Thanks again. I'm in Leeds, England.


You are probably a touch far for me to be able to assist, with me being closer to Chester on the Cheshire Plains.

Any of the others here over towards Leeds. I was wondering if the gear changer and hub were not set to the same gear - something we could easily check out for our new member...


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## Ningishzidda (22 Feb 2013)

tyred said:


> No! I generally gear my Sturmey bikes to have a 72" top gear. I don't need anything higher on the sort of routes I usually ride. On Sunday, I was riding 44/22 on a 28" wheeled roadster, all 45lb of it. I also have 46/18 on a 20" wheeled folder, 46/22 on 26" wheeled sports roadster and 46/22 on my 3 speed Kalkhoff road/touring bike.


 I have a 20" shopper with 46/20.I have a half link in the chain to get the spindle in a sensible position.
My 26" roadster has 46/24. I like top in the 60s.


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## tyred (22 Feb 2013)

Ningishzidda said:


> I have a 20" shopper with 46/20.I have a half link in the chain to get the spindle in a sensible position.
> My 26" roadster has 46/24. I like top in the 60s.


 
I own a 24t sprocket and really wanted to put it on the Rudge but it doesn't fit in the chaincase.


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## Chris S (22 Feb 2013)

Mary Poppins said:


> Hello bike people. I have recently bought a genuine dutch bike with 8 speed sturmey archer hub gears. I took it for a test ride and found it very difficult to get past gear 5 on the flat and found it very difficult to get up a very moderate incline in 1st gear. Now I'm not the fittest but could it be that the gears are set too high? Can they be adjusted so that the lowest gear is even lower. I know nothing about gears! Please help!


 
Sturmey Archer 8-speed hub gear ratios range from 1.0 to 3.2. This is about the same range as a conventional bike.8-speed bike and should give you the same over all performance.

The first thing you should check is your seat height - if it's too low then pedalling will be difficult on any bike. There should just be a slight bend in your knee when the pedal is at the bottom of its range.

Then check that all 8 gears are selecting correctly. This video shows you how to do it:

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-QCrUZ7W88


If all this is correct then you can always lower the gearing on your bike by putting a bigger sprocket on the back. Most SA hubs have 18-tooth sprockets. 22-tooth sprockets are readily available of the internet and make a huger difference. Shimano and SRAM sprockets will also fit Sturmey Archer hubs. Shimano make a 24-tooth sprocket which will lower the gearing even further.


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## snailracer (22 Feb 2013)

tyred said:


> I own a 24t sprocket and really wanted to put it on the Rudge but it doesn't fit in the *chaincase*.


It's not clear that a hub gear is any less bother than a derailleur until the operating conditions are considered. If a bike is stored outdoors exposed to the elements, a chaincase provides a significant benefit that is not available to derailleur bikes. A derailleur bike that lives a relatively pampered life in a shed, tended by a rider who cleans and oils it regularly, will also provide reliable service.
The reputation of the quality hub-geared bikes of old was also related to their use of hub brakes, 1/8" chain, stout frames, steel rims, materials and finishes that were suited to bikes that were expected to be kept outdoors, etc. - these design features, each of which provides a cumulative measure of added durability, are rather uncommon in the contemporary UK bike market.
So, it's too simplistic to automatically assume that hub gear = less bother. Other design features and the conditions of use will determine how true that assertion is.


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## Crankarm (23 Feb 2013)

MacB said:


> I'm not a fan of the Surly options for hub gears the only one I rated was the Crosscheck with horizontals and rim brakes. Two of my sons have Karate Monkeys with derailleurs which are great bikes. But I did experiment with putting a Rohloff on one to see how it would fair as an allround tourer. You instantly run into issues with the disc brakes and mudguards for wheel removal and the orientation of the OEM2 axle plate adds complexity as well. The rear caliper mount is slotted to move with the wheel but it means you have to be pretty precise with alignment to avoid rubbing. It is improved on later KMs and the Troll etc as earlier models you actually had to loosen the disc brake caliper to remove the wheel in some positions.
> 
> That's not to say it doesn't work very well for some it really depends on the level of faff you can/will tolerate. For me the rohloff attraction was immediately diminished by the need for the OEM2 plate and having to go to a nutted axle. So I decided that if I'd shelled out the dosh on a rohloff then I wanted to maximise the benefit and needed a frame appropriate to this. I would actually rather use vertical dropouts and a tensioner than go back to using track ends with a hub gear.
> 
> ...


 
A supremely helpful post MacB. Thank you so much for taking all the time to write it, sharing your knowledge and experience.

Much of what you write I had also thought about especially having a custom made frame made (Roberts Rough stuff or Hewitt) but the cost is prohibitve compared to off the shelf especially when planning to use a Rohloff rear hub which is a cost £1,100 alone. I know one would end up with a beautiful frame such as Roberts can make but it would totally blow my budget at present. Maybe some time in the future. So I have currently ended up at the Surly Troll frame as it has DB mounts (in the right place on the rear for easy rak mounting) and sliding rear drop outs and Surly actually specifically state that they have designed it for those users who want to fit a Rohloff hub although you need to fit the Rohloff hub fixing plate. I would prefer QR but I have been advised that QR is not strong enough to hold the axel in place in a horizontal drop out set up. Plus the Troll has all the bosses/mounts for racks front and rear plus bottle cage mounts. One could even fit a susp fork if one wanted for rough roads ................. The thing I don't like is the bike name. I have looked closely at pics of the frame and it appears in quite small script so will attempt to cover it! What a crap name for a bike. Name selection fail! However I can get the Troll frame for £386.10 in orange 2012 model. A black one (2013) which might be better as black is non descript and wouldn't stand out so much, although I like the idea of orange, for £404.10. The 2013 frames have more bosses/mounts for bottle cages - a third set under the main tube for a bottle and more on the front fork. I also looked at a Salsa Fargo but couldn't see a way to easily fitting a Rohloff, perhaps I was mistaken, but I thought it just wouldn't work plus it's a 29 inch wheel not the best in the back of beyond. The one I really liked was the Civia Bryant - perfect frame even with break in rear drop out for belt drive, strikingly simple solution, neat and really quite clever, but the spec was crap and Civia refused to sell me the frame and fork only. What f%*^&rs! Perhaps they are making so much money they can afford to turn away cash and f^&*£ a customer off. A great business model that is.

Anyway I am hopefully taking a look at a Surly troll frame (16" orange 2012) in the flesh middle of next week. I have never seen one let alone ridden one, so it will be suck it and see.


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## Cush (23 Feb 2013)

As I have pointed out in other posts I am not totaly happy with my Dawes Nomad and the Alfine 11 hub gear but I am stuck with it, as SWMBO would kill me if I traded it in for a big loss (which I fear is what would happen). It is due for it's first years service in April but I am willing to fetch this forward to March. A question or two for the hub specalists. (1)Is there a bike shop near Carlisle that understands the Alfine hubs (I can travel as far Kendal, Newcastle or Glasgow as they all have direct trains from Carlisle) (2) Can I change the gearing to make it more suitable for hill work (3) I like butterfly bars would these work on the Nomad.


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## MacB (23 Feb 2013)

Cranky, it may be worth a step at a time for example getting the Rohloff wheel first, I bought a 36h black DB OEM plate version(generally the most expensive configuration) from Bike24 last week and it worked out to £895 shipped. I had them send it directly to Wheelcraft for building and expect my final price tag to be approx £1k including the Rohloff specific disc rotor. This will be built into a Mavic TN719 36h black disc only rim - just to give you an idea of the price differential out there, I reckon that's £200+ less than SJS - however I'm fairly close to Head for the Hills in Dorking so have Rohloff/hub gear expertise nearby.

The Troll will work very well with the Rohloff it just doesn't give me the QR hub gear heaven I wanted  But if you invest in a good wheelbuild via somewhere like Wheelcraft, I opt for a tandem strength build, then the wheelset(especially if disc brake) could outlive several frames. I reckon you could do that, build up the Troll and see how you like it. A Troll frame would be fairly easy to shift on if you decide on a change at a later date.


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## MacB (23 Feb 2013)

Cush said:


> As I have pointed out in other posts I am not totaly happy with my Dawes Nomad and the Alfine 11 hub gear but I am stuck with it, as SWMBO would kill me if I traded it in for a big loss (which I fear is what would happen). It is due for it's first years service in April but I am willing to fetch this forward to March. A question or two for the hub specalists. (1)Is there a bike shop near Carlisle that understands the Alfine hubs (I can travel as far Kendal, Newcastle or Glasgow as they all have direct trains from Carlisle) (2) Can I change the gearing to make it more suitable for hill work (3) I like butterfly bars would these work on the Nomad.


 
I think Kinetics in Glasgow specialise in hubs quite a bit or could at least point you to someone that could help.

Butterfly bars I have a love hate relationship with, they are really comfortable out on the sides but it's really hard, and looks lousy, getting controls out there. That makes the hand position with access to gears and brakes very narrow and I found it the least comfy of the various hand positions available. They are also quite tricky to get reach correct on depending on which model you go for. I now prefer to use a swept back flat bar with stubby barends inboard of the grips and, depending on how big the sweep is, either Ergo grips with outboard barends or just plain Ergos.


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## Cush (23 Feb 2013)

Thanks for that MacB I will look up Kinetics and give them a ring. I fitted Butterflys to my Karakum and realy liked them. Now I see they are fitted as standard.


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## Crankarm (24 Feb 2013)

MacB said:


> Cranky, it may be worth a step at a time for example getting the Rohloff wheel first, I bought a 36h black DB OEM plate version(generally the most expensive configuration) from Bike24 last week and it worked out to £895 shipped. I had them send it directly to Wheelcraft for building and expect my final price tag to be approx £1k including the Rohloff specific disc rotor. This will be built into a Mavic TN719 36h black disc only rim - just to give you an idea of the price differential out there, I reckon that's £200+ less than SJS - however I'm fairly close to Head for the Hills in Dorking so have Rohloff/hub gear expertise nearby.
> 
> The Troll will work very well with the Rohloff it just doesn't give me the QR hub gear heaven I wanted  But if you invest in a good wheelbuild via somewhere like Wheelcraft, I opt for a tandem strength build, then the wheelset(especially if disc brake) could outlive several frames. I reckon you could do that, build up the Troll and see how you like it. A Troll frame would be fairly easy to shift on if you decide on a change at a later date.


 
Thanks MacB.

Don't SJS do good wheel builds? I thought with the large numbers of people who buy their Thorns with Rohloff hubs for expeditions then they would be the place to go or not as you seem to be suggesting.

The wheel rim I was going to use was a Mavic 719 for disc but not sure which one. Was also thinking of a Schimdt Son 28 dynamo hub for the front wheel or maybe just get a Hope Evo 2 hub and use my Max D front lights. It would be cheaper and also mean a ligher front wheel. I am thinking black would be a far better frame colour - unassuming.

Have also seen this Avanti Alfine 11 spd disc brake bike.
http://www.avantibikes.com/nz/bikes/path/urban-road/inc-3/


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## Pale Rider (24 Feb 2013)

Crankarm said:


> Have also seen this Avanti Alfine 11 spd disc brake bike.
> http://www.avantibikes.com/nz/bikes/path/urban-road/inc-3/


 
Belt drive and a hub gear, a quiet, dry bike - nice.

I can't see how they've engineered the gap in the rear triangle to get the belt on.

I suspect the pics have been tampered with, there's no valves visible on the rims.

Bit cheeky if that's the case, the bike you get won't appear quite so stealthy.


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## MacB (24 Feb 2013)

Of the Mavic 719 rims then basically the A719 has a brake track and the TN719 doesn't, oh and I think the latter is slightly lighter. As far as I know SJS build excellent wheels and I have used them I was only being critical on their pricing, as in I can get a complete Rohloff wheel and fittings for less than they sell the hub on its own.

Front wheels I have a SonDelux and a couple of Hope Pro IIs I'd rate either of them.

I'm still steering clear of the Alfine 11 as I'm not yet seeing the love for it that you can find around the Alfine 8 or the rohloff. I'm also not smitten by the idea of belt drives but that's probably just my own natural resistance to change.


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## mattsr (24 Feb 2013)

Shortmember said:


> I think the dodgy hub you're referring to is the Nexus 8.I had a Carrera Subway fitted with one and it
> lasted just 12 months of easy commuting and then it literally fell apart.


 
I had exactly the same experience. It was absolutely hopeless.

After about a year of commuting, it fell apart, as you say. I had a new hub fitted, which cost over 200 quid. When that one went belly up, about 18 months later, I brought a new bike. With a derailleur.


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## snorri (24 Feb 2013)

Cush said:


> Thanks for that MacB I will look up Kinetics and give them a ring.


I wouldn't touch them with a bargepole, broken promises re delivery, broken promises re fitting time, broken spokes after completion. I had to send my hub to SJS to get the wheel built properly, and no problems since.


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## Cush (24 Feb 2013)

Yuk, thanks for that Snorri you have saved me a trip to Glasgow but its left me in a bit of a quandary, I dont think the LBS that I got the Nomad off understands hub gears but I do want the bike serviced and ready for odd three and four day tours by the end of March and the Alfine gears will not stop in 2nd or 5th and I need both for touring.


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## Crankarm (24 Feb 2013)

Pale Rider said:


> Belt drive and a hub gear, a quiet, dry bike - nice.
> 
> I can't see how they've engineered the gap in the rear triangle to get the belt on.
> 
> ...


 
The break is in the seat stay about half way up to get belt on and off. Belt has a centre track so cannot slip.

Kingsway Cycles in Cambridge does Avanti and I had a quick ride on an Inc 3. It was a tad too big for me as it was an XL frame but I got the feel for the bike. A very very light frame 7005 tubing, the Alfine 11 hub worked perfectly and disc brakes spot on. The ride was firm and manuevrability excellent given it was a big frame for me.The only think I didn't like about the bike was the front fork has no bosses for mounting a front rack and the fork is very oval/flat in profile so making brackets/clamps would be difficult. Also the eccentric BB as the drop outs are vertical. Frame colour is a flat matt black which looks awful IMHO. But apart from this the bike was good to ride. Very quiet and smooth transmission with the belt drive and Alfine 11 IHG. If the front fork had mounts for a front rack I'd buy one but it doesn't so this is why I consider building my own spec using Surly Troll frame.


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## MacB (24 Feb 2013)

snorri said:


> I wouldn't touch them with a bargepole, broken promises re delivery, broken promises re fitting time, broken spokes after completion. I had to send my hub to SJS to get the wheel built properly, and no problems since.


 
wow, thanks for that, funnily enough I've only looked at Kinetics online and did once send an e-mail about something but no response so I never followed up.

I was about to suggest the Shimano Service Centre programme to find somebody but that's currently suspended pending a relaunch.

SJS do quality work as do Wheelcraft in Glasgow but I only went with hub gears as I had my LBS that knows the old ones well and I'd trust to have a go at an Alfine. Then a bit further away for a Rohloff service but still inside 20 miles. I would have found a long distance mechanics relationship a bit testing.

Maybe you could ring round local shops that stock alfines and see?


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## snorri (24 Feb 2013)

MacB said:


> and did once send an e-mail about something but no response .


That was your lucky day
I'm not surprised, I really should have taken the hint earlier, but had travelled a long way and just didn't fancy the idea of starting from scratch again to look for a supplier who I knew would be even further away from my home.


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## Rohloff_Brompton_Rider (24 Feb 2013)

I've read so many bad things about Ben it's unbelievable, but I've had nothing but excellent top quality service from him. I've currently got a hired bb chamfering tool and he did loads of work on my last brommie including fitting a schlumpf.

I wonder why I'm the only one who sings his praises....


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