# Best Brompton Saddle?



## housebotanist (19 Jan 2019)

I have recently got myself a Brompton H6L and I love it, I have added a few accessories to it to make a tiny bit lighter but, oh my the seat is not the comfiest. I was wondering what seats people use, I have tried looking and the one that comes up the most is Brooks B66 but I was wondering if this was the best one and if Brooks are the only ones that fit the Brompton and/if you need a pentaclip? Any help would be great and some accessory recommendations would be much appreciated.


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## Banjo (20 Jan 2019)

Saddles are so individual its hard to offer any advice .

I fitted a B17 to my ML6 and found it comfortable Im not sure what a pentaclip is but didn't need any accessories to fit the B17.

I have refitted the Brompton saddle now as I wanted the B17 on my tourer. I find the Brompton seat fine for the mostly sub 10 mile rides I do on it.


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## Tenkaykev (20 Jan 2019)

housebotanist said:


> I have recently got myself a Brompton H6L and I love it, I have added a few accessories to it to make a tiny bit lighter but, oh my the seat is not the comfiest. I was wondering what seats people use, I have tried looking and the one that comes up the most is Brooks B66 but I was wondering if this was the best one and if Brooks are the only ones that fit the Brompton and/if you need a pentaclip? Any help would be great and some accessory recommendations would be much appreciated.



Hello house botanist, Firstly welcome to the Forum, I'm quite new here myself but I've found that they are a friendly bunch who don't bite :-)

My wife is quite a keen cyclist. She describes herself as a " Carthorse, not a Racehorse " ( her words, not mine! )
She has successfully cycled LEJOG, and from home here on the South Coast to our daughter who lives in Edinburgh, all self supported.
She swears by her Selle SMP TRK saddle which she used on her Roberts Bike.

She has just started riding a Brompton. She says the saddle is " OK " but I ordered a New Selle SMP TRK to fit to her Brompton.
It appears that I ordered the wrong size as the one that arrived was a bit smaller than the one on her Roberts, I've managed to find one the correct size ( Large ) and will fit it when it arrives.
The Selle looks a bit strange in that it has a turned down nose ( you'll understand what I mean if you look at a picture of them )

The " Pentaclip " is the gubbins that attaches the saddle rails to the seat post so you already have one on your Brompton.

HTH

Kevin


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## 12boy (20 Jan 2019)

Any rail type saddle will fit. Unless you have an aftermarket seat post with an integral clamp you wil need a pentaclip. This is an aluminum version of the steel clamps found on old bikes and cheap ones. The steel ones are heavy but stout and they do fit the Brompton seat post. Brooks does make ladies' saddles (B 17 Imperial, B18) and so does Terry, the Terrys being a much lighter conventional saddle. The problem is that what looks and sounds good on paper may feel uncomfortable in practice. If you can find an LBS that will allow you to try them before purchase that would be great. Or , try your friends' saddles. For myself, nothing beats the right leather saddle even if they are twice as heavy.


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## Tenkaykev (20 Jan 2019)

12boy said:


> Brooks does make ladies' saddles (B 17 Imperial, B18) and so does Terry, the Terrys being a much lighter conventional saddle. The problem is that what looks and sounds good on paper may feel uncomfortable in practice. If you can find an LBS that will allow you to try them before purchase that would be great. Or , try your friends' saddles. For myself, nothing beats the right leather saddle even if they are twice as heavy.


I bought a ladies Brooks B17 as a Christmas present for my wife a couple of years ago. She did persevere with it for several months but ended up refitting the Selle.
As you say, saddles are a very individual thing.


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## CopperBrompton (20 Jan 2019)

B17 Special here. If you're new to Brooks, be prepared for it to be uncomfortable for the first 50 miles, and to gradually soften up thereafter. Should be very comfy from around 200 miles and just get better from there.


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## Kell (21 Jan 2019)

I fancied the idea of a Brooks, but with a Lime Green Brommie, it didn't really suit in my opinion. 

Mine's OK for commuting and up to about 7-8 miles. Afte rthat, I do think it's a bit uncomfortable. 

Certainly, the 17 mile trip that I made down a (mostly) unpaved canal path let me know just how uncomfy.


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## Tenkaykev (21 Jan 2019)

CopperBrompton said:


> B17 Special here. If you're new to Brooks, be prepared for it to be uncomfortable for the first 50 miles, and to gradually soften up thereafter. Should be very comfy from around 200 miles and just get better from there.



Do you need to use the proofide on a regular basis and does it speed up the " breaking in " process.
As my wifes Brooks B17 is sitting in the cupboard I'm tempted to try it although I'm not sure about the geometry.


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## 12boy (21 Jan 2019)

Unless it is a ladies B17 the geometry issues are....
The rails on a Brooks are short and do not allow for a lot of fore and aft. 
The conventional wisdom I have heard is broader saddles are best for an upright position, such as M bars on a Brompton and narrower saddles best in a bent position, as with drop bars. B17s are a fairly broad saddle. 
Having said that I prefer a narrow saddle for all my bikes since they suit the sitbones best. I would suggest giving the B17 a try and seeing for yourself how it feels on your sitbones.


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## chriscross1966 (21 Jan 2019)

Tenkaykev said:


> Do you need to use the proofide on a regular basis and does it speed up the " breaking in " process.
> As my wifes Brooks B17 is sitting in the cupboard I'm tempted to try it although I'm not sure about the geometry.


Proofride about once a year, one tin will likely last your children long enough to bequeath it to your grandchildren...


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## Tenkaykev (22 Jan 2019)

Just to update, on closer inspection the saddle is B17s Ladies and looks a bit too short.
Of course I found this out after I'd removed the Brompton saddle and being a bit thick by completely removing the pentaclip bolt and dumping all the plates and washers on the floor :-(


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## Tenkaykev (22 Jan 2019)

12boy, 
I see what you mean about the length of the rails on the Brooks saddle, very short indeed.


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## Kell (22 Jan 2019)

Tenkaykev said:


> Just to update, on closer inspection the saddle is B17s Ladies and looks a bit too short.
> Of course I found this out after I'd removed the Brompton saddle and being a bit thick by completely removing the pentaclip bolt and dumping all the plates and washers on the floor :-(



https://trade.brompton.com/Uploads/QPart/QPart-Datasheets/ds-pentaclip.pdf

Scroll down to the bottom for the exploded diagram.


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## Tenkaykev (22 Jan 2019)

Kell said:


> https://trade.brompton.com/Uploads/QPart/QPart-Datasheets/ds-pentaclip.pdf
> 
> Scroll down to the bottom for the exploded diagram.



Thanks Kell,
I printed it out and got it all back together correctly.


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## 12boy (22 Jan 2019)

The pentaclip relies on a steel bolt tightening to the AL side of the clip. To avoid stripping the soft Al I got a slightly longer bolt and put a nut on it as well. Probably totally unnecessary, but it hasn't hurt anything except the massive weight gain. Also replaced the hex head bolts on the brake cable clamps with Allen head bolts so as not to need a 10mm wrench with me. Can't leave well enough alone.


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## rogerzilla (22 Jan 2019)

Since you have to carry the thing sometimes, a Brooks is probably the worst option. Any light saddle is better.


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## Ian H (22 Jan 2019)

If it's for normal Brompton use – say, less than 30 miles at a time – I wouldn't have thought the saddle was that critical.


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## Tenkaykev (22 Jan 2019)

Ian H said:


> If it's for normal Brompton use – say, less than 30 miles at a time – I wouldn't have thought the saddle was that critical.



And there's the rub.
As well as being relatively new to cycling I'm sort of commited to a 70 mile trip towards the end of May.
I'm getting out as often as I can and perhaps a more comfortable saddle might help although I can see that it would be difficult to know what is the discomfort caused by my body adapting to a new discipline and that caused by a saddle that might not be optimal.


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## Ian H (22 Jan 2019)

Three things to consider together: arse, shorts, and saddle. Softer is not better for any of those. The first is cured (or at least alleviated) by miles; the other two are very much personal choice. But what ever you get will take getting used to.


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## mitchibob (24 Jan 2019)

The best saddle is the one that's most comfortable for you. 

I'm actually relatively happy with the standard saddle, although a part of me longs for a Brooks (I really wanted to get a colt in my youth, but a B17 would do me now). Another part of me is wondering about something with more of a groove down the middle, or even something like one of those ISM saddles.

Thing is, none of them let you easily attach the cool Cateye rear light that goes into the 2016+ Brompton saddles and I've done some reasonably long rides on them. The brompton saddle does make a better handle to carry the bike, but I always grab from the tube now anyway. Titanium seatpost might've affected centre of gravity.


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## Tenkaykev (25 Jan 2019)

12boy said:


> Any rail type saddle will fit. Unless you have an aftermarket seat post with an integral clamp you wil need a pentaclip. This is an aluminum version of the steel clamps found on old bikes and cheap ones. The steel ones are heavy but stout and they do fit the Brompton seat post. Brooks does make ladies' saddles (B 17 Imperial, B18) and so does Terry, the Terrys being a much lighter conventional saddle. The problem is that what looks and sounds good on paper may feel uncomfortable in practice. If you can find an LBS that will allow you to try them before purchase that would be great. Or , try your friends' saddles. For myself, nothing beats the right leather saddle even if they are twice as heavy.



Just to update on the Selle SMP TRK to fit on my wifes Brompton.
It arrived earlier today so I set about switching it for the Brompton saddle.
There's a " gotcha " the Selle saddle is deeper so unless you are really lucky with the required position the extra saddle depth prevents access to the pentaclip bolt for tightening in all but the furthest back position on the rails.


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## u_i (25 Jan 2019)

Tenkaykev said:


> Just to update on the Selle SMP TRK to fit on my wifes Brompton.
> There's a " gotcha " the Selle saddle is deeper so unless you are really lucky with the required position the extra saddle depth prevents access to the pentaclip bolt for tightening in all but the furthest back position on the rails.



Yes, I encountered that too, but you have the option of putting the rails through the upper pentaclip grooves, at the cost of increasing the height of the folded bike.


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## cougie uk (26 Jan 2019)

I quite like the standard saddle . comfortable for me but I do get on with most saddles.


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## yoho oy (17 Jan 2022)

Old post, but let me pitch in here... Obviously saddle is personal choice. Your bottom part might go on strike despite you bought the latest and greatest tech from the most respected saddle maker. I have some issues with Brooks C17. It is fine for very short slow ride, but anything longer and faster and my bottom part hurts like hell for days. 

I also tend to ride almost at 90 degrees, and most of the time I push the seat post a little bit lower than ideal for my height. It is not great- since after longer ride my knees are hurting too. On other hand when seat post is pulled all way up till my ideal setting I find Brompton is quite unstable, especially on higher speeds. Perhaps this will get better with time as I will ride bike more. It is not about Brompton being more twitchy than other normal bikes, it has to do with how light Brompton is and has smaller wheels. Riding down hill while pedalling was really exciting, but I felt the limits of the bike... It is like attaching Ferrari engine to the original Mini... Perhaps it is OK in closed circuit, but really not safe with narrow streets, frequent traffic lights and a lot of other action going on...

So I went to Decathlon to mock try some saddles and get some ideas. This one is like a sofa. Price was £24.99. I cannot comment on ride quality, since I did not mounted the saddle on a bike, but gel feels quite responsive and probably would soften encountered road imperfections. Also you will not feel as if you are sitting on razor blade. But this saddle is just massive. At 21cm width it is not made for a folder. It would be much harder to handle the bike when it is folded with this saddle.







Much better option was this:




You can see Brooks C17 peeking underneath. Made by DDK, branded as Decathlon. £12.99 and the width is 19.5cm. I think it is about the maximum size that does not look ridiculous for a folder and is quite comfortable for big bottoms. Again, I did not tested so no comment on actual ride quality. It felt firmer than city 900, yet responsive to the touch.

I am getting DDK one, branded as DDK shipped. It is a bit more expensive and narrower than Decathlon. Will see how it goes. Was debating between DDK, Decathlon and Selle SMP TRK Large one. Selle had good reviews, but then it had this weird design with a hole in the centre, was most narrow from the 3 of them and most expensive. Plus good reviews might just end up good reviews for someone else but me...

Like I said before. Saddles are personal. I specifically went for Brooks saddle when I purchased my bike since reviews were positive. On other hand I cannot wait to take it off from my bike. Only the fact that it is winter and I haven't done much longer distance riding slowed me down. I suspect regular or wide Brompton saddle is more comfortable than Brooks C17. Overall the trend for many bicycle manufacturers is to put razor blade wide saddles. Many saddles sold these days are very narrow too. I really hate this trend. I don't think it is very good for general public on so many levels. The bottom part is sore in so many places on such saddles.


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## u_i (17 Jan 2022)

From my personal experience, the saddles can be too wide as far as comfort is concerned. I.e., after going down in the width for the same seat model, I found the riding to get more pleasant. In spite of the criticism of the rigid determination of an optimal saddle width from sit bone spacing, it is a reasonable starting point for tweaking. The spacing can be found by sitting on a cardboard.


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## berlinonaut (18 Jan 2022)

yoho oy said:


> my bottom part hurts like hell for days (...) I also tend to ride almost at 90 degrees, and most of the time I push the seat post a little bit lower than ideal for my height. It is not great- since after longer ride my knees are hurting too. (...) trend for many bicycle manufacturers is to put razor blade wide saddles. Many saddles sold these days are very narrow too. I really hate this trend. I don't think it is very good for general public on so many levels. The bottom part is sore in so many places on such saddles.


Saddles and other settings on the bike are clearly personal preference in the end. On the other hand one should be aware about biomechanics - being the "motor" of the bike (the most efficient machine mankind has invented until now) has some consequences regarding ergonomics and most efficient use of human power. Some of them are counterintuitive and, as the whole bike is a system, one component/setting on the bike influences each other. What is counterintuitive is that wide and plush saddles are in fact not only less ergonomical but also less efficient than slimmer ones (that typically are formally harder, too). But if you have your handlebars to high and your saddle too low (which seems to be the case to a massive extent judging from your description) your butt will hurt on a slimmer saddle as forces are distributed in an unergonomic manner. If you knees hurt this is also a sure sign that something is badly wrong. Maybe this pdf is a good general entry point to get an understanding about the basic ergonomic and biomechanical aspects of bike riding: https://junik-hpv.de/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Bike_Ergonomics_for_All_People.pdf


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## ExBrit (18 Jan 2022)

Even though saddles are very personal, I would suggest a Brooks B17 if you weigh > 160lbs or a Sella Anatomica if you weigh less. They are both leather saddles so they need to be treated with saddle wax periodically (twice a year or if it gets soaked) and should be protected from rain. It's like polishing shoes. The Brooks takes some breaking in, the Sella less so. Note: The Brooks saddle wax is no better than regular horse saddle wax, just 10x more expensive. Hope this helps.


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## yoho oy (18 Jan 2022)

Thanks, but no thanks on Brooks. I think a sample of one was enough. Yesterday went on longer ride and my bottom will be hurting for a week. There is a lot of philosophies on bike sadle with sitbones, etc. Back in a day all bike saddles were wide. Most people were OK with that. Now even mainstream bikes are super slim. As if everyone is race driver on track going 35 km per hour. Ridiculous. Also I don't really want to spend that much money on a saddle. £40 is about max I would want to pay.

My discomfort with C17 has nothing to do with seat being too low. I tried many seat-post positions using this saddle, but the problem is that it is very hard, too narrow and curves to the sides, so there is even less contact surface with bottom part. I have pain in my tail bone, sitbones, lower back and even my front part is hurting. I lower seatpost a little bit more that I should because I like more upright sitting position and if I don't and lean forward it feels as if I have less control with a bike. The feeling is as if my body is tipping over the handrail. Might be I could mount saddle a little bit back... I tried tilting it a little bit back and forward, but haven't tried pushing it a little bit back on rails. Anyway I will soon replace this saddle and let you know how things are.


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## Kell (18 Jan 2022)

yoho oy said:


> Thanks, but no thanks on Brooks. I think a sample of one was enough. Yesterday went on longer ride and my bottom will be hurting for a week. There is a lot of philosophies on bike sadle with sitbones, etc. Back in a day all bike saddles were wide. Most people were OK with that. Now even mainstream bikes are super slim. As if everyone is race driver on track going 35 km per hour. Ridiculous. Also I don't really want to spend that much money on a saddle. £40 is about max I would want to pay.
> 
> My discomfort with C17 has nothing to do with seat being too low. I tried many seat-post positions using this saddle, but the problem is that it is very hard, too narrow and curves to the sides, so there is even less contact surface with bottom part. I have pain in my tail bone, sitbones, lower back and even my front part is hurting. I lower seatpost a little bit more that I should because I like more upright sitting position and if I don't and lean forward it feels as if I have less control with a bike. The feeling is as if my body is tipping over the handrail. Might be I could mount saddle a little bit back... I tried tilting it a little bit back and forward, but haven't tried pushing it a little bit back on rails. Anyway I will soon replace this saddle and let you know how things are.


The problem is, you're compounding the problem. Sitting more upright is loading even more weight on to your arse and will, ultimately make it more uncomfortable. 

You're also unloading the front end of the Brompton, which most people say is skittish at the best of times and most people say handling is improved when carrying loads on the front block. 

So you're making the bike more unstable *and *giving your back more problems.


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## berlinonaut (18 Jan 2022)

Honestly said the C17 is nor a very slim saddle - it is a touring saddle after all. It fits many people averagly well though not necessarily very good And some do not like it at all. You should not draw general conclusions from one saddle to all saddles because this would be an oversimplification that cannot hold true. Not even to other Brooks saddles. The leather saddles feel and behave totally different and even within the range of the slimmer Brooks leather saddles there are huge differences to the point where one model is unrideable for a certain person whereas another one that looks pretty similar works perfectly. Even worse: Even the same model can be different. I do i.e. own two Brooks professional, one feels like a piece of wood , the other one like a sofa. But Brooks are special anyway with their wear-in period. The Selle Anatomica saddles that @ExBrit mentioned are very comfy from day one, though a bit on the heavy side. Off the non leather saddles my personal favorite is a predecessor of the Terry Arteria Fly model. Others like SQLab saddles and others something different. BTW: You can claim that the seating position would have nothing to with pain on the lower back - still ergonomics proof you wrong. Same with the bar height. It is counterintuitive. On a bike you need to have body tension, a good weight distribution between lower back and hands and for the legs the correct angle to make use of your body power. You do have to build up the necessary muscles to maintain body tension and to care a bit to avoid a round back. If all that is a given you will have no pain. If only one factor lacks you will have pain. With your seating position you do have far too much weight on the saddle and due to the upright position it is on the wrong contact points as well. Even worse on a saddle that is intended for a different seating position. Completely logical that you do have pain.

Imagine you would start freshly out with a new sport, let's say rowing or skiing. Would you then also insist on your first gutt feel for comfort or follow the advice of people how found out what positon and behavior works best for the sport in question?


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## Profpointy (18 Jan 2022)

Brooks B17 or Team Pro presumably; just the same as for a normal bike


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## yoho oy (18 Jan 2022)

u_i said:


> Yes, I encountered that too, but you have the option of putting the rails through the upper pentaclip grooves, at the cost of increasing the height of the folded bike.


You mean saddle can be mounted on bottom part of pentaclip grooves too? When I fold my bike I have to push the seatpost quite a bit in order to fit in Ikea dimpa bag. I was wondering is it because I got extended seatpost, even it said regular...


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## berlinonaut (18 Jan 2022)

Depending on when you got the bike: As far as I know (would not swear on it) at least with the new models (C-line etc) the short seatpost is gone and the former "extended" is the new standard. Possibly this has happened earlier last year already, also on normal models. I am pretty sure that the B75 may have had this even from it's invention.


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## berlinonaut (18 Jan 2022)

yoho oy said:


> You mean saddle can be mounted on bottom part of pentaclip grooves too?


Absolutely.


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## yoho oy (18 Jan 2022)

Oh yah, I see now. Just watched Brilliantbikes video about pentaclip. My pentaclip is rotated upside down (compared with Brilliant bikes video) and saddle rails go trough top part... That is how it was assembled in a shop. Hmmmm...

Edit - brompton logo on pentaclip is projected correctly- bike stands on wheels. So I guess just the sides of pentaclip are rotated upside down.


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## u_i (19 Jan 2022)

yoho oy said:


> You mean saddle can be mounted on bottom part of pentaclip grooves too? When I fold my bike I have to push the seatpost quite a bit in order to fit in Ikea dimpa bag. I was wondering is it because I got extended seatpost, even it said regular...


Yes, of course, you can mount on top or bottom of the pentaclip. When you mount on the bottom, the pentaclip dives deeper into the saddle and leaves you less space for manipulating the bolt and you may need to be inventive in tightening it. I eventually switched to one with a hexagonal head as it was easier to turn it from the side. And, yes, mounting on the bottom makes the fold a tad more compact.


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## u_i (19 Jan 2022)

yoho oy said:


> Oh yah, I see now. Just watched Brilliantbikes video about pentaclip. My pentaclip is rotated upside down (compared with Brilliant bikes video) and saddle rails go trough top part... That is how it was assembled in a shop. Hmmmm...
> 
> Edit - brompton logo on pentaclip is projected correctly- bike stands on wheels. So I guess just the sides of pentaclip are rotated upside down.



There is no right or wrong there. You orient it whichever way you need to achieve your goal.


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## yoho oy (19 Jan 2022)

u_i said:


> There is no right or wrong there. You orient it whichever way you need to achieve your goal.


No, I just was wondering why it is not that compact when folded- saddle and seatpost is sticking out quite a bit. After googling images, it seems that most people mount C17 on the top rail part, while some on bottom. Once I will get new seat I will take off pentaclip, pull out seatpost and measure. It might be extended rather than standard...


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## rogerzilla (19 Jan 2022)

Extended as standard reflects the fact that people have got taller and need the longer post, but you won't get the smallest folded size. I think the telescopic post goes down further when folded, but it is rather heavy.


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## ExBrit (19 Jan 2022)

rogerzilla said:


> Extended as standard reflects the fact that people have got taller and need the longer post, but you won't get the smallest folded size. I think the telescopic post goes down further when folded, but it is rather heavy.


If you only needed an extra inch over the standard seat post, could you get the extended one and chop off the length you don't need? I assume you would need to take it off the bottom.


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## rogerzilla (19 Jan 2022)

You couldn't, as the bottom is flared.


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## yoho oy (20 Jan 2022)

Got the new saddle. http://www.activeddk.com/index.php?module=product&mn=1&f=content&tid=181469
Went for a ride. What a difference!!! No more saddle sore, no more saddle discomfort when riding! No more break in period or whatever! DDK makes some saddles in collaboration with Selle SMP and the saddle really feels and looks like quality product. Maximum width is at the bottom, saddle goes a little bit like a pyramid at the left and right edges in the back part. This one https://www.decathlon.co.uk/p/90-gel-bike-saddle/_/R-p-174606?mc=8389349 is a little bit wider, probably less padding as it is not gel, but almost 2 times less expensive.

Here it is in comparison with Brooks C17.







It is not that much bigger than C17, It is just shaped more comfortable, at least for me. Don't have scales to weight it, but C17 feels a little bit heavier.


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## yoho oy (20 Jan 2022)

New DDK saddle has enough clearance and easy access to mount it either on top or bottom of a pentaclip.


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## Tenkaykev (20 Jan 2022)

yoho oy said:


> Got the new saddle. http://www.activeddk.com/index.php?module=product&mn=1&f=content&tid=181469
> Went for a ride. What a difference!!! No more saddle sore, no more saddle discomfort when riding! No more break in period or whatever! DDK makes some saddles in collaboration with Selle SMP and the saddle really feels and looks like quality product. Maximum width is at the bottom, saddle goes a little bit like a pyramid at the left and right edges in the back part. This one https://www.decathlon.co.uk/p/90-gel-bike-saddle/_/R-p-174606?mc=8389349 is a little bit wider, probably less padding as it is not gel, but almost 2 times less expensive.
> 
> Here it is in comparison with Brooks C17.
> ...


The C17 is 14 grammes heavier and about 20mm narrower


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## CEBEP (20 Jan 2022)

We had serious depreciation of Turkish Lira and there is still some stock which was imported under previous rate of exchange with very attractive prices.

Couldn't resist to order another Brooks saddle today. Decided to keep my flame laquer all black except the frame and rivets, so ordered B17 Special Titanium black. It's 410gr, about a 100gr lighter than B17.


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## yoho oy (20 Jan 2022)

CEBEP said:


> We had serious depreciation of Turkish Lira and there is still some stock which was imported under previous rate of exchange with very attractive prices.
> 
> Couldn't resist to order another Brooks saddle today. Decided to keep my flame laquer all black except the frame and rivets, so ordered B17 Special Titanium black. It's 410gr, about a 100gr lighter than B17.


It this fits you, then great. I honestly think that leather saddle probably is a bit more comfortable than rubber C17. Personally I would probably go with a tad wider B67... Now the question is - would I risk at least £80-90-100+ to find out? But back in a day I had a bicycle with leather saddle (was not Brooks) and it was very comfy, a bit on firm side, but lasted a lifetime without any maintenance. Another think is leather saddle is a bit on heavier side (at least cheaper non -titanium version). Sure I would prefer comfort over the weight, but little by little weight adds up... There is a certain point of weight why I bought Brompton over brand XYZ.


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## yoho oy (21 Jan 2022)

I guess for those who complain about prices (pointing at myself ) Brooks looks like a bargain compared to French leather saddles  https://berthoudcycles.fr/en/125-city-saddles 152- 233 euros!!!


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## berlinonaut (21 Jan 2022)

yoho oy said:


> I guess for those who complain about prices (pointing at myself ) Brooks looks like a bargain compared to French leather saddles  https://berthoudcycles.fr/en/125-city-saddles 152- 233 euros!!!


You do really have an unhealthy fixation on prices...  Maybe one day you will look at the product and the value it delivers first and only then on the price. There are more or less a handful of "branded" manufacturers of leather saddles in the area of touring and racing (there are a couple more but a lot are gone, like i.e. lepper seems to be):
Brooks, Selle Anatomica, Rivet and Berthoud. Brooks is by far the oldest of the four. I don't own a Rivet but I do own several Brooks, Selle Anatomica and one Berthoud. All are different, each with it's strengths and downsides, but all deliver high quality. USP of the Berthoud is i.e. that they are bolted rather than riveted (and therefor easier to repair) and that they are a lot lighter than the competiton w/o making a compromise in quality. USP of Selle Anatomica is that they fit almost everyone and are comfy from day one. USP of Brooks is the tradition and the wide range of products.
There are a bunch of cheaper manufacturers of leather saddles and a lot of brands that buy from them and rebrand it with their own name, like probably i.e. SPA does with their own branded leather saddles. Once more you may be lucky with such a saddle or have bad luck. Typically there are differences in craftmanship and quality, but maybe not relevant to you or for your needs. In the end it is always "you get what you pay for".
A more expensive product is not necessarily better than a cheaper one nor does it automatically fit your needs better but chances are that it will be of higher quality (that you may recognize and value or not). But clearly true is also that a product that costs more is only rarely recklessly priced or only on the same quality level as the cheapest product in the market. So if the price is your only criteria you will make bad buying decisions one after the other.


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## Kell (21 Jan 2022)

berlinonaut said:


> You do really have an unhealthy fixation on prices...  Maybe one day you will look at the product and the value it delivers first and only then on the price. There are more or less a handful of "branded" manufacturers of leather saddles in the area of touring and racing (there are a couple more but a lot are gone, like i.e. lepper seems to be):
> Brooks, Selle Anatomica, Rivet and Berthoud. Brooks is by far the oldest of the four. I don't own a Rivet but I do own several Brooks, Selle Anatomica and one Berthoud. All are different, each with it's strengths and downsides, but all deliver high quality. USP of the Berthoud is i.e. that they are bolted rather than riveted (and therefor easier to repair) and that they are a lot lighter than the competiton w/o making a compromise in quality. USP of Selle Anatomica is that they fit almost everyone and are comfy from day one. USP of Brooks is the tradition and the wide range of products.
> There are a bunch of cheaper manufacturers of leather saddles and a lot of brands that buy from them and rebrand it with their own name, like probably i.e. SPA does with their own branded leather saddles. Once more you may be lucky with such a saddle or have bad luck. Typically there are differences in craftmanship and quality, but maybe not relevant to you or for your needs. In the end it is always "you get what you pay for".
> A more expensive product is not necessarily better than a cheaper one nor does it automatically fit your needs better but chances are that it will be of higher quality (that you may recognize and value or not). But clearly true is also that a product that costs more is only rarely recklessly priced or only on the same quality level as the cheapest product in the market. So if the price is your only criteria you will make bad buying decisions one after the other.



I agree with some of that, and it may be more true of items that you use (by 'you' I mean collectively) or have to perform a function. And there is a huge difference between cost and value.

But there are tonnes of examples of things that are vastly overpriced for what they are. Like Balenciaga.

£825 for some trainers that are both ugly and look pre-worn.







https://www.balenciaga.com/en-gb/runner-trainers-white-656065W3RA19000.html


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## berlinonaut (21 Jan 2022)

Kell said:


> I agree with some of that, and it may be more true of items that you use (by 'you' I mean collectively) or have to perform a function. And there is a huge difference between cost and value.
> 
> But there are tonnes of examples of things that are vastly overpriced for what they are.


That's absolutely true - overpricing does exist. And - even worse: The higher you climb in the price range the smaller is often the gain in additional value that you get with the next price level. So the price step from a cheap to a decent product may be relatively small but bring loads of additional value but the step from a close-to-top end quality product to the absolute best in class may gain only little value but cost a fortune. As always: it depends.


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## 12boy (21 Jan 2022)

The saddle sold by Spa has also been sold by Rivendell and Velo Orange. I have 4 of them, all for at least 5 years and much prefer them to Brooks as I find them more robust. My model is very narrow, the saddle sides join above the rails to prevent the sides from splaying, the undesaddle has a waterproof plastic mesh and the flat part of the rails are a bit longer, so more fore and aft adjustment is possible. The leather seems thicker than a Brooks. As we have already recognized, which saddle works for one person may be torture for another. I rarely get saddle sores when using these saddles.


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## ExBrit (21 Jan 2022)

12boy said:


> The saddle sold by Spa has also been sold by Rivendell and Velo Orange. I have 4 of them, all for at least 5 years and much prefer them to Brooks as I find them more robust. My model is very narrow, the saddle sides join above the rails to prevent the sides from splaying, the undesaddle has a waterproof plastic mesh and the flat part of the rails are a bit longer, so more fore and aft adjustment is possible. The leather seems thicker than a Brooks. As we have already recognized, which saddle works for one person may be torture for another. I rarely get saddle sores when using these saddles.


I've been scanning through this thread for a link to the Spa saddle that people are talking about but I don't see one. Could you provide a link, please?

Thanks


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## Rocky (21 Jan 2022)

ExBrit said:


> I've been scanning through this thread for a link to the Spa saddle that people are talking about but I don't see one. Could you provide a link, please?
> 
> Thanks


https://www.spacycles.co.uk/m18b0s204p0/Saddles/Saddles-Leather

Scroll down the page and you'll see the range that they do


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## ExBrit (21 Jan 2022)

Rocky said:


> https://www.spacycles.co.uk/m18b0s204p0/Saddles/Saddles-Leather
> 
> Scroll down the page and you'll see the range that they do


Thanks - they don't ship to US 
But I'll be in the UK in July, COVID willing


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## GeekDadZoid (21 Jan 2022)

ExBrit said:


> Thanks - they don't ship to US
> But I'll be in the UK in July, COVID willing


I have two Spa Nidds now and very happy with them. Seem to handle the weather well too.


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## Schwinnsta (21 Jan 2022)

*😄In the past, l road Selle Antomica. They are comfortable but one of ways they achieve that is by using longer rails. Over a relatively short period of time, my rails of the saddle bent. I am not particularly heavy, 175 pounds. Others have reported this as well. They claim to have fixed this. I have gone back to the stock saddle and have no issues with it. I do like the built handle.*


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## berlinonaut (21 Jan 2022)

Interesting. I don't have that problem (and like the longer rails). Two Selle Anatomica Saddles in use for years (though both actually not ridden on a daily basis but for a couple of years they were on my two main bikes). I find them a bit heavy and there was an early and regular need to rise the tension (which did not cause problems). Can't say anything against them.


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## CEBEP (22 Jan 2022)

berlinonaut said:


> That's absolutely true - overpricing does exist. And - even worse: The higher you climb in the price range the smaller is often the gain in additional value that you get with the next price level. So the price step from a cheap to a decent product may be relatively small but bring loads of additional value but the step from a close-to-top end quality product to the absolute best in class may gain only little value but cost a fortune. As always: it depends.


Exactly why one can find decent quality bags for Brompton on Aliexpress.


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## u_i (22 Jan 2022)

CEBEP said:


> Exactly why one can find decent quality bags for Brompton on Aliexpress.


Are you stating this based on some actual personal experience or just on browsing vendor pages? When I was looking for a pouch to hold a chain lock, the pouch that came from AliExpress had edges and straps so stiff that you could cut your hand and yet overall the bag was so weak that I would not entrust my chain to it. I could go at length about experiences with bag and other bike items out of fabric purchases while in China, so I am just asking .


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## CEBEP (22 Jan 2022)

u_i said:


> Are you stating this based on some actual personal experience or just on browsing vendor pages? When I was looking for a pouch to hold a chain lock, the pouch that came from AliExpress had edges and straps so stiff that you could cut your hand and yet overall the bag was so weak that I would not entrust my chain to it. I could go at length about experiences with bag and other bike items out of fabric purchases while in China, so I am just asking .



I have handlebar bag from Aliexpress which is awesome. I have gopro mounts, mud flaps, front light bracket, Ti seatpost, pedal holder, kickstand and few other things. All of good quality, all that I use and enjoy. And yeah, you need to read reviews before you buy.


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## u_i (22 Jan 2022)

CEBEP said:


> I have handlebar bag from Aliexpress which is awesome. I have gopro mounts, mud flaps, front light bracket, Ti seatpost, pedal holder, kickstand and few other things. All of good quality, all that I use and enjoy. And yeah, you need to read reviews before you buy.


Oh, my experiences are dramatically opposite and yes I read reviews anywhere I can and also write them. I would say that more than 50% of first time purchases are unusable and I am so to say resigned to that. Those that are usable are on the OK side. Maybe we differ in standards . Also I talk about the first-time purchases because, when something actually works, I may buy it again. I also wonder, in the context of your claimed experiences, why mainland Chinese are sometimes ready to buy a foreign-branded product at a cost few times higher than nearly identically looking domestic product. Do they have access to some mysterious knowledge that, under commonplace circumstances, they just look at a domestic vs foreign label???


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## u_i (22 Jan 2022)

P.S. Ever few times, when buying on AliExpress, the delivered item is different from that advertised, so that much for the reviews.


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## CEBEP (23 Jan 2022)

u_i said:


> Oh, my experiences are dramatically opposite and yes I read reviews anywhere I can and also write them. I would say that more than 50% of first time purchases are unusable and I am so to say resigned to that. Those that are usable are on the OK side. Maybe we differ in standards . Also I talk about the first-time purchases because, when something actually works, I may buy it again. I also wonder, in the context of your claimed experiences, why mainland Chinese are sometimes ready to buy a foreign-branded product at a cost few times higher than nearly identically looking domestic product. Do they have access to some mysterious knowledge that, under commonplace circumstances, they just look at a domestic vs foreign label???


 
If, unlike mine, your standards are so high, why order anything from Aliexpress in the first place? You could have ordered bag for your chain from Brooks or some other well known, none Chinese brand. No? 

I've ordered SON Edelux II which is supplied with fork bracket suitable for Brompton. I actually didn't know the bracket will be supplied in the box so during the process of placing the order I've ordered stand alone SON fork bracket suitable for Brompton. So now I have 2. It places light so high up that its too close to the bag when mounted on the front carrier block making light unusable for me making me go and order alternative bracket. German company, product bought off a German website, produced in Germany, shipped from Germany. 

And the Brompton specific TRIGO fork mount I previously ordered from Aliexpress for battery powered headlight worked like a charm. From China, made in China. 

So yeah, experiences differ.

I've ordered $65 titanium seatpost from Aliexpress which was listed as 600mm which is exactly the length of my stock seatpost. The one I received was perfect, except it was 580mm. I've made few pictures showing the length difference and sent them to the seller. They apologized and immediately sent another one, asking me to keep or sell the 580mm seatpost I received. Your experience can definitely be different, just as your experience with any retailer in the world. 

Would I buy a Rolex watch from China over the internet? Probably not. A bag for bicycle? Will definitely give it a try.


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## u_i (23 Jan 2022)

My account shows close to 150 purchases on AliExpress, so the statistical record is pretty solid with all kinds of cases. I have no intention to discuss it further beyond what I said. The discussion will not change what is there.


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## yoho oy (23 Jan 2022)

Have zero experience with AliExpress and you can find reviews of that store going both directions. I don't know what to think about it and because of that I am still reluctant to try that store. Judging from reviews some of the items shipped in very poor packaging and arrive quite mangled. That is additional worry. Many items that are found on AliExpress can be also be found on Ebay. Some of them have even very similar prices. If a price is very close, one should think about what is more important - shipping speed or price. When looking at items on Ebay one should check where does item ships from- some of them ships from China. Amazon lately became more expensive on many items compared with Ebay. Plus Ebay has free shipping on quite a few things despite order value while Amazon most of the time force you to buy more or get Amazon prime.


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## berlinonaut (23 Jan 2022)

yoho oy said:


> Have zero experience with AliExpress and you can find reviews of that store going both directions. I don't know what to think about it and because of that I am still reluctant to try that store.


AliExpress is not a store but a marketplace. So there is no "standard" but it depends from the individual seller. Sellers there come and go/disappear quickly. There are a couple that have been there for years, sell their own products and are serious people but there are also a shitload of gamblers that sell about anything and do not have any clue what they are selling (and don't care as well). Customer service on AliExpress (the platform) has become worse and worse over the last years, so if you have a problem with a seller you are pretty much out of luck and fully dependent from the seller himself. A lot of selling on Aliexpress is via the most competitive prices, so in the end it is a massive gamble what you end up with. The problem that the attitude towards quality and business behaviour seems to differ between Europe and China massively doesn't make things better. Typically you have no idea what you will end up with: Something good, something bad, a counterfeit product that doesn't live up to expectations or a bargain. Or something completely different from what you have ordered or what was advertised.


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## u_i (23 Jan 2022)

berlinonaut said:


> AliExpress is not a store but a marketplace. So there is no "standard" but it depends from the individual seller. Sellers there come and go/disappear quickly. There are a couple that have been there for years, sell their own products and are serious people but there are also a shitload of gamblers that sell about anything and do not have any clue what they are selling (and don't care as well). Customer service on AliExpress (the platform) has become worse and worse over the last years, so if you have a problem with a seller you are pretty much out of luck and fully dependent from the seller himself. A lot of selling on Aliexpress is via the most competitive prices, so in the end it is a massive gamble what you end up with. The problem that the attitude towards quality and business behaviour seems to differ between Europe and China massively doesn't make things better. Typically you have no idea what you will end up with: Something good, something bad, a counterfeit product that doesn't live up to expectations or a bargain. Or something completely different from what you have ordered or what was advertised.



Exactly! And what I have been hearing approached the claims of a beginning roulette player that when you put your chips on red you are bound to win, just need to do enough research into the black repeating itself sufficiently many times, the red is bound to come out. Advice from other players what to bet on is also good. In addition the house gives you bonuses from time to time, so life is good and they are about to quit their job and make their living off playing roulette.

Incidentally, I was shocked last week when AliExpress gave me a full refund for an item that arrived completely dead, documented by filming - I cannot remember any such a refund case from before. Maybe it has something to do with the Covid advice in China to avoid mail from abroad.


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## u_i (24 Jan 2022)

berlinonaut said:


> The problem that the attitude towards quality and business behaviour seems to differ between Europe and China massively doesn't make things better.



Actually, inside China I had quite pleasant experiences with JD.com, the main on-line retailer there. I used local help to order. They delivered within 2 days anywhere in China and it might have been free for my order. They did not mind delivering to a hotel and, when the item was not yet there before my departure hour, when I was on the move, they just changed the delivery address to my next destination, completely on the fly. When I decided to go for a higher model of the particular item, the replacement was for free, just payment of the difference, and they sent out the replacement immediately after I turned in my original item to shipping and the latter just meant turning in the item to the hotel reception desk. The level of service was well beyond what I was used to up to that moment. The hotels I stayed in were nothing particularly fancy to call for special service - the locals told me that what I was experiencing was the norm with JD.com.


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