# Hips rocking?



## gazza81 (14 Apr 2020)

Ive read that its a bad thing, I'm not sure if this is my hips rocking or back movement somewhere

I have had a bike fit but the seat was a lot higher than it is currently I lowered it as it felt too high and I got an injury to the back of my knee last summer.

I tried various height and my back does exactly the same movement no matter how low or high I go

I've not noticed any aches or pains from it so is it a bad thing?

View: https://youtu.be/t41YTEH-Kcc


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## TissoT (14 Apr 2020)

The saddle still looks high. Do you have cycling shoes ? try it again with shoes on and with a side view.


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## gazza81 (14 Apr 2020)

No I cycle with flat pedals, I don't think it's too high if anything it's on the low side.
I did try going lower and it still happened I tried going higher and it still happens to


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## TissoT (14 Apr 2020)

It could be the saddle is to wide for you.


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## CXRAndy (14 Apr 2020)

From the knee flex, saddle looks just about right. 

Comment

I didn't know you were riding flats, 

To help with your pedalling technique, learning to spin(winter goal) clip in pedals will be better


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## Baldy (14 Apr 2020)

When you're at the bottom of your peddle action, your leg is still quite bent. It should be straight. Other than that I couldn't see anything wrong.


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## OldShep (14 Apr 2020)

its not a pretty sight but doesn’t necessarily mean your saddle is the wrong height. I always think you must be more prone to saddle sores/ rubbing when rocking like that.
You could well benefit from some Pilates or Yoga and get those hip joints working correctly.

edit : to add I’ve just seen Baldy's post and your leg should definitely not be straight at bottom of stroke.


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## MontyVeda (14 Apr 2020)

Baldy said:


> When you're at the bottom of your peddle action, your leg is still quite bent.* It should be straight*. Other than that I couldn't see anything wrong.


As i understand it, there should be a slight bend at the knee when the pedal's at the bottom.


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## Rusty Nails (14 Apr 2020)

MontyVeda said:


> As i understand it, there should be a slight bend at the knee when the pedal's at the bottom.



I have read that, as a rule of thumb, to set the saddle at the right height your leg should be straight when the heel is on the pedal.


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## Randomnerd (14 Apr 2020)

Cant fathom why you’d have a bike fit and then change what they set you up with. Seems a waste of cash. You need to work on core strength and hip flexibility to deliver optimum power to the pedal stroke, and everything has to be nicely lined up if you reckon maybe 5000 revs of the hip per hour, to avoid joint damage long term. Stronger abductor muscles on the outside of your hips and knees will help, as will improved core work. Yoga, swimming, weights and plenty of miles.
You shouldn’t bottom out with a stiff leg. That’s just nonsense.
Only my opinion.


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## cyberknight (14 Apr 2020)

Rusty Nails said:


> I have read that, as a rule of thumb, to set the saddle at the right height your leg should be straight when the heel is on the pedal.


indeed .
http://wheel-easy.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/bike-set-up-2017a.pdf
i find heel on pedal gives me the same result as the lemond method but be aware lemonds calculation of .883 x inseam is based on 175 mm cranks so as i use 170s i add 5 mm to it .


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## gazza81 (14 Apr 2020)

Randomnerd said:


> Cant fathom why you’d have a bike fit and then change what they set you up with. Seems a waste of cash. You need to work on core strength and hip flexibility to deliver optimum power to the pedal stroke, and everything has to be nicely lined up if you reckon maybe 5000 revs of the hip per hour, to avoid joint damage long term. Stronger abductor muscles on the outside of your hips and knees will help, as will improved core work. Yoga, swimming, weights and plenty of miles.
> You shouldn’t bottom out with a stiff leg. That’s just nonsense.
> Only my opinion.



I had the fit last year, got knee injury which put me out from may to November, not because it was really bad but just gave up really, disappointed as i was just starting to do some good miles.
posted up here with alot of comments saying fit looks all wrong.
So decided to go by feeling comfy rather than what some kid in evens set me up with, lowered my saddle and so far knee has been fine.
I do strength training and stretching, 2/3 times a week, thats not to say the right areas are flexible enough but im not super stiff, i did wonder if the rocking was a flexibility issue somewhere.

My seat height feels comfy and turns out is bang on the height of LeMond method which i stumbled on while looking at different methods, so seems like its in the right area


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## Yellow Saddle (14 Apr 2020)

A rocking pelvis isn't so easy to spot, especially when wearing loose clothes. Have a helper stand behind you and use two pointing fingers to touch the left and right side of your pelvis at its widest point before disappearing into your waist. Now pedal. The helper's hands will now show whether your pelvis is actually rocking and by how much. It shouldn't rock, just jiggle a bit.


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## SkipdiverJohn (14 Apr 2020)

cyberknight said:


> i find heel on pedal gives me the same result as the lemond method but be aware lemonds calculation of .883 x inseam is based on 175 mm cranks so as i use 170s i add 5 mm to it .



Try the calculation using Ballantine's formula of 1.09 x inside leg = saddle top to pedal dimension. If I set a saddle by trial and error for comfort and lack of knee pain, then measure it after, I find both the Ballantine and Lemond method numbers are very similar to my actual empirical adjustment.


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## Randomnerd (14 Apr 2020)

Feeling comfy is a good start, certainly if you’ve had knee gripes 
Bike fit by a proper fitter is another thing ( cf helmet debate - some are pro fit, others not). 
Clipped in spinning would help, by keeping your foot still.
Maybe don’t overthink it. If you’re feeling comfortable, just enjoy your riding.


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## gazza81 (14 Apr 2020)

Yellow Saddle said:


> A rocking pelvis isn't so easy to spot, especially when wearing loose clothes. Have a helper stand behind you and use two pointing fingers to touch the left and right side of your pelvis at its widest point before disappearing into your waist. Now pedal. The helper's hands will now show whether your pelvis is actually rocking and by how much. It shouldn't rock, just jiggle a bit.


I tried to feel my hips and im not sure they were "rocking" but theres alot of movement in my back which i wasn't sure was a good thing!


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## gazza81 (14 Apr 2020)

Randomnerd said:


> Feeling comfy is a good start, certainly if you’ve had knee gripes
> Bike fit by a proper fitter is another thing ( cf helmet debate - some are pro fit, others not).
> Clipped in spinning would help, by keeping your foot still.
> Maybe don’t overthink it. If you’re feeling comfortable, just enjoy your riding.


Yes you're right! I guess if i start to get pain then look at my form


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## Yellow Saddle (14 Apr 2020)

gazza81 said:


> I tried to feel my hips and im not sure they were "rocking" but theres alot of movement in my back which i wasn't sure was a good thing!


Get a helper. This is not a DIY job.


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## CXRAndy (14 Apr 2020)

Dont over think the situation. If its comfortable, then its ok. When you get into bigger miles, any niggles can be addressed by small incremental adjustments. 

You do these one by one, *IF *and when they arise


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## matticus (14 Apr 2020)

About a year ago someone informed me my hips were rocking. I've since watched a lot of pro-racing, and it's vv common for a little rockin' to occur, mile after mile with some riders.
So I decided not to worry about it - I've ridden many 300km days with no problem, so I don't want to bu99er about and create new problems.

From the vid I'd say there is minimal rocking, but it's hard to say with loose-fitting clothes.


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## fossyant (14 Apr 2020)

The movement in your back is your muscle. Certainly saved my spine from worse injury when it got broken. Specialist commented on the back muscles either side of my spine. It's good exercise. Listen to yellow saddle.

Your seat height looks ok. My bikes are all set up with Bernard Hinaults book on racing and training. Can't remember the formula, but two of my bikes are from 30 years ago so I just measure them and apply it to my other bikes including the MTB's


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (14 Apr 2020)

There's not an awful lot that looks wrong in that video


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## boydj (14 Apr 2020)

I don't think your hips are rocking. I think the movement you see is because the saddle is a bit low and your knees and therefore your thighs are coming up too high. I'd gradually move the saddle up a little at a time until you get to the right height going by the heel on pedal test which should hopefully be somewhere near the bike fit setting. It does take time for a new saddle height to feel right if you've been at the wrong height for a long time.


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## Globalti (15 Apr 2020)

Rusty Nails said:


> I have read that, as a rule of thumb, to set the saddle at the right height your leg should be straight when the heel is on the pedal.



Wrong. With the pedal at the bottom of its stroke the leg should be in what's called the "naturally cocked" position, meaning hanging loose rather than stretched straight. In this position the heel should just contact the pedal when swung gently back and forth.

This thread contains some of the worst advice I've ever seen collected together in one CC thread. 

FWIW the hip movement in the OP's video doesn't look abnormal to me. What you're seeing is the muscles moving. A video shot properly in landscape (hence taking up the entire screen) with the rider's hip area in lycra shorts and top or even just underpants and bare top would tell us more. There will always be hip movement when making an effort so in the landscape video, ride with normal effort.


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## OldShep (15 Apr 2020)

I’m used to viewing such things with an eye level atop a bike. Would having the camera higher show the hips better?


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## cyberknight (15 Apr 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Try the calculation using Ballantine's formula of 1.09 x inside leg = saddle top to pedal dimension. If I set a saddle by trial and error for comfort and lack of knee pain, then measure it after, I find both the Ballantine and Lemond method numbers are very similar to my actual empirical adjustment.


i find 1.09 is 5 cm short


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## Venod (15 Apr 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Try the calculation using Ballantine's formula of 1.09 x inside leg = saddle top to pedal dimension. If I set a saddle by trial and error for comfort and lack of knee pain, then measure it after, I find both the Ballantine and Lemond method numbers are very similar to my actual empirical adjustment.



The Ballantine and Lemond method should give you two different results if done correctly.

http://veloptimum.net/Velop/documents/1-choisir/RBR15juil10.htm

I have always found the heel on pedal with straight leg works for me, with cleats,

In the op Video the saddle looks a touch low,


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## cyberknight (15 Apr 2020)

Venod said:


> Shouldn't you be subtracting 5mm ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think your mixed up i run shorter cranks so to get to the right measurement i need to add the difference.


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## Venod (15 Apr 2020)

cyberknight said:


> I think your mixed up i run shorter cranks so to get to the right measurement i need to add the difference.


Yes its early for me, now deleted.


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## Randomnerd (15 Apr 2020)

Globalti said:


> This thread contains some of the worst advice I've ever seen collected together in one CC thread.


Maybe you could elucidate, sensei?


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## matticus (15 Apr 2020)

gazza81 said:


> I tried to feel my hips and im not sure they were "rocking" but theres alot of movement in my back which i wasn't sure was a good thing!


Here's a thought: to get a feel for this, try putting your saddle up in fairly large steps until it is vv obvious that your hips are rocking (there comes a point when it is totally unavoidable!)

That might help you "sense" it when the saddle is at a more rideable height.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (15 Apr 2020)

Making changes in large steps is never the recommended thing to do. Adjustments are minute, a mm or two at a time


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## matticus (15 Apr 2020)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Making changes in large steps is never the recommended thing to do. Adjustments are minute, a mm or two at a time


If that's in response to my post, then you've musinderstood it!


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## gazza81 (15 Apr 2020)

Yeah i know what you ment, just raise it up while on the trainer untill its obviously too high that my hips are rocking to give me a sense of what it feels like when lowered to the correct height.

I think im just going to go with the if it aint broke dont fix it route

Thanks


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (15 Apr 2020)

matticus said:


> If that's in response to my post, then you've musinderstood it!


Not really, I did this once entirely by accident and nearly tore my Achilles off the bone


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## matticus (15 Apr 2020)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Not really, I did this once entirely by accident and nearly tore my Achilles off the bone


I don't really like you suggesting I've given advice that could lead to that.​


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (15 Apr 2020)

matticus said:


> I don't really like you suggesting I've given advice that could lead to that.


I didn't.


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## matticus (15 Apr 2020)

Luckily the person I aimed the suggestion at did actually have 2 brain cells, so understood what I meant.


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## vickster (15 Apr 2020)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Not really, I did this once entirely by accident and nearly tore my Achilles off the bone


The OP is using flat pedals so easier to disengage feet


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## matticus (15 Apr 2020)

I'd say _extremely _easy!


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (15 Apr 2020)

matticus said:


> Luckily the person I aimed the suggestion at did actually have 2 brain cells, so understood what I meant.


Is there any need to descend into insults?


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (15 Apr 2020)

vickster said:


> The OP is using flat pedals so easier to disengage feet


Which while relevant also isn't. Saddle too high is saddle high


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## vickster (15 Apr 2020)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Which while relevant also isn't. Saddle too high is saddle high


But less likely to rip achilles off bone presumably


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (15 Apr 2020)

vickster said:


> But less likely to rip achilles off bone presumably


Perhaps 🤔


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## Rusty Nails (15 Apr 2020)

Globalti said:


> Wrong. With the pedal at the bottom of its stroke the leg should be in what's called the "naturally cocked" position, meaning hanging loose rather than stretched straight. In *this position the heel should just contact the pedal when swung gently back and forth.*
> 
> This thread contains some of the worst advice I've ever seen collected together in one CC thread.
> 
> FWIW the hip movement in the OP's video doesn't look abnormal to me. What you're seeing is the muscles moving. A video shot properly in landscape (hence taking up the entire screen) with the rider's hip area in lycra shorts and top or even just underpants and bare top would tell us more. There will always be hip movement when making an effort so in the landscape video, ride with normal effort.


I said 'straight', not 'stretched out'! What is the effective difference between just contacting the pedal and the heel being on the pedal with the leg straight? A few mm!
I'm not sure you fully understand what rule of thumb means (_a broadly accurate guide or principle, based on practice rather than theory)._ There is no one size fits all 100% correct measurement for the saddle height/leg to be and there will be slight differences for riders based on physiology and history of injuries/knee problems, and possibly type of riding. As such, I am pleased to tell you that your rule of thumb for correct saddle height is OK as well. 
Once a rider has got a saddle height by whichever rule of thumb they choose it will usually need a few minor tweaks following practice before it is completely right for them.

_Disclaimer: I am not a professional bike fit practitioner, nor a professional physiologist/physiotherapist. So my views are just as likely as other people who are not to be bollux._


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## Randomnerd (15 Apr 2020)

Lockdown meltdown. 
Threads where posters claim “all the posters on this thread are idiots; only I know best!”
Threads where chunks start flying re someone potentially rolling their hips leading to three less watts per mile.
Come on! This is supposed to be a grown-up place where we help out.
OT, I have a new vacuum cleaner, a Sebo, and the house has never been less dusty. I am a bit worried about my forearm action though....may post a vid.


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## MontyVeda (15 Apr 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Try the calculation using Ballantine's formula of 1.09 x inside leg = saddle top to pedal dimension. If I set a saddle by trial and error for comfort and lack of knee pain, then measure it after, I find both the Ballantine and Lemond method numbers are very similar to my actual empirical adjustment.


I tend to use the heel on pedal method, but was interested by this... my trouser inside leg is 34" x 1.09 = 37.06" ...measured pedal to seat and it's 38", which means my actual inside leg is two inches longer than i previously thought, which means I'm even lankier than I'd assumed .


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## matticus (15 Apr 2020)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Is there any need to descend into insults?


Always! 
please stop criticizing my advice when it's been patiently+politely explained to you why you are wrong. Simples!


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## OldShep (15 Apr 2020)

MontyVeda said:


> I tend to use the heel on pedal method, but was interested by this... my trouser inside leg is 34" x 1.09 = 37.06" ...measured pedal to seat and it's 38", which means my actual inside leg is two inches longer than i previously thought, which means I'm even lankier than I'd assumed .


Forget your trouser leg measurement that’s not how you do it. Stand up against a wall, bare feet, holding a book between your crotch. Measure from top of book to floor thats the measurement if you need it. 
Like you I use heel on pedal pedalling backwards with no rock to reach down to pedals.


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## dodgy (15 Apr 2020)

First few replies varied from "seat too high" to "seat too low", all this from a video taken from the rear.

Anyway, I think the saddle is too low, post a video from the side instead.


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## MontyVeda (15 Apr 2020)

OldShep said:


> Forget your trouser leg measurement that’s not how you do it. *Stand up against a wall, bare feet, holding a book between your crotch. Measure from top of book to floor thats the measurement if you need it.*
> Like you I use heel on pedal pedalling backwards with no rock to reach down to pedals.


that would put my saddle up another four and a half inches using the _1.09 x inside leg_ method i was referring to, which is way too high.


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