# CS7 Blue cycle route London - The Police are watching you



## l4dva (23 Jul 2010)

This morning I got pulled over after jumping a red right.... the road was perfectly clear I was in no danger to myself or any other road users but I blatently jumped the light and got fined £30!! I was in the wrong shouldn't of jumped the lights blah blah sh*t happens.... or dose it! 

The copper tells me boris spent X amount of money on these blues lanes blah blah we are here patroling the entire route for the next 6 weeks - so basically they are picking up anyone who jumps lights etc and giving them a fine. I continued my journey to see 2 other cyclists pulled over by police officers on motorbikes issuing tickets to them. 

Lets face it we all jump lights - I do it when I know its safe I take the risk and jump them to save time.... just like every other cyclist - everyone knows this. Over six weeks the police are going to pick up bucket loads of cash in fines. It's unjust, it feels like to me they are just recovering money spent on the blue cycle lanes and now they are just targeting cyclists to foot the bill! 

We all commute to work for our own reasons, but in doing so we are all helping the environment etc etc etc the government try to promite this by setting up the cycle lanes but then why police them in such a way that they are giving with one hand and then taking straight back with the other! 

Please any one who uses this cycle route be very carefull for the next 6 weeks and stop at the lights, I don't know where that copper was hiding because I didn't see him at the lights but he saw me. They are out there to get you!!!


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## Trevrev (23 Jul 2010)

Now the floodgates will open !!
You've admitted, here, on cyclechat, that you jump red lights!!
And you've assumed we all jump lights !!!
You naughty boy!
You're going to upset a few people on here with those comments.
I'll keep an eye on this thread....................Could be very funny reading.................LOL


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## 4F (23 Jul 2010)

l4dva said:


> Lets face it we all jump lights - I do it when I know its safe I take the risk and jump them to save time.... just like every other cyclist - everyone knows this.



Popcorn is ready


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## dodgy (23 Jul 2010)

In London the majority jump red lights, elsewhere not so true.


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## BentMikey (23 Jul 2010)

Good, I hope they fine you every time you jump a light. I hate you 'kers who jump lights. One of you caused my friend a serious back injury after crashing into him, and I'm tired of taking the blame for your p1$$ poor riding from every ranty motorist.

There are loads of good riders who don't jump lights. It's only a bad minority like yourself that cause these problems. Now go and play in the traffic or something.


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## BentMikey (23 Jul 2010)

dodgy said:


> In London the majority jump red lights, elsewhere not so true.



Not according to that recent TfL study, no.


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## StuartG (23 Jul 2010)

I feel like shooting the plod for giving the game away. Be good for six weeks then wayhay! That's equivelent to cars braking and accelerating away from GATSOs (and why average checks will replace them).

Its good news that blatant RLJers question the wisdom of their misdemeanours. Boris trying to instill a culture of respect for traffic controlled junctions must be a good thing. I hope it lasts beyond six weeks and possibly spreads. The trouble with these campaigns is that they are often all or nothing. RLJing a junction in front of traffic is NAGT. Whereas ambling across a pedestrian crossing with no pedestrians in sight and no one watching beyond a hidden plod should be within the discretion of the law.


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## fossyant (23 Jul 2010)

The numpty that jumped 3 sets of lights in the space of a mile this morning would be skint if that happened up here. I passed him every time. The only set he didn't jump was the one that crosses a busy dual carriageway hmmm.

All I will say is.................... ha ha ha ha ha !!!!


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## mcshroom (23 Jul 2010)

If you jump a red light you are breaking the law so if you get fined then tough as far as I'm concerned. If you don't want to pay the fine don't RLJ. Bit like motorists cmplaining bout speed cameras imho.


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## 2Loose (23 Jul 2010)

l4dva said:


> Lets face it we all jump lights - I do it when I know its safe I take the risk and jump them to save time.... just like every other cyclist - everyone knows this.



No we don't. Some cyclists follow the rules of the road, out of consideration for themselves, others and the law.


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## 2Loose (23 Jul 2010)

BentMikey said:


> I'm tired of taking the blame for your p1$ poor riding from every ranty motorist.



+1 
The Metro paper has a load of vitriolic anti-cyclist letters in it today, tarring all cyclists with l4dva and other RLJ'ers brush.


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## martint235 (23 Jul 2010)

BentMikey said:


> Good, I hope they fine you every time you jump a light. I hate you 'kers who jump lights. One of you caused my friend a serious back injury after crashing into him, and I'm tired of taking the blame for your p1$$ poor riding from every ranty motorist.
> 
> There are loads of good riders who don't jump lights. It's only a bad minority like yourself that cause these problems. Now go and play in the traffic or something.




+1 many times over

Couldn't have put it better myself Mikey.

I also agree with the other poster (can't figure out multi-quote) that it's a shame the copper said it was only for 6 weeks. It should be possible to police the CSH (and I wish all the other junctions but I'll settle for CSH) all the time and I think the fine should be upped to at least £100. 

So please tell us, now you've been fined will you be modifying your behaviour or can I expect a welcome reduction in my council tax bill thanks to your donations?


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## Sheffield_Tiger (23 Jul 2010)

l4dva said:


> I was in the wrong shouldn't of jumped the lights


No, you shouldn't HAVE jumped the lights...



l4dva said:


> Lets face it we all jump lights


No we don't. Won't say I never have but there has been some unusual reason for the very few times I have felt the need to, and it has been for my safety, not convenience



l4dva said:


> I do it when I know its safe I take the risk and jump them to save time.


That's your lookout then



l4dva said:


> ... just like every other cyclist


Not the case



l4dva said:


> everyone knows this


"Everyone" being "Mr Irate Motorist writing to the Daily Mail". What you mean to say is that many people incorrectly assume this after seeing you do so, and then have a pop at the rest of us because "everyone knows we all do it". Garbage!



l4dva said:


> They are out there to get you!!!


No they are not. They are out to get YOU! And good luck to them!


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## Femto (23 Jul 2010)

*Highway Code Rule 71:*
You *MUST NOT* cross the stop line when the traffic lights are red. Some junctions have an advanced stop line to enable you to wait and position yourself ahead of other traffic (see Rule 178).

*[Laws RTA 1988 sect 36 & TSRGD regs 10 & 36(1)]
*


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## marinyork (23 Jul 2010)

I see a RLJer about once a month, I do wish the rest of you would calm down and stop exaggerating. It gives cycling a very bad image that people constantly exaggerate it.


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## Matthames (23 Jul 2010)

l4dva said:


> This morning I got pulled over after jumping a red right.... the road was perfectly clear I was in *no danger* *to myself or any other road users* but I blatently jumped the light and got fined £30!! I was in the wrong shouldn't of jumped the lights blah blah sh*t happens.... or dose it!
> 
> *Lets face it we all jump lights* - I do it when I know its safe I take the risk and jump them to save time.... just like every other cyclist - everyone knows this. Over six weeks the police are going to pick up bucket loads of cash in fines. It's unjust, it feels like to me they are just recovering money spent on the blue cycle lanes and now they are just targeting cyclists to foot the bill!
> 
> ...



Firstly, we all don't jump lights and for very good reasons. Just because loads of other people do it, doesn't make it right. For instance loads of people speed and park on double yellow lines, but it doesn't make it right though. Jumping red lights gives us law abiding cyclists a bad wrap from the anti cycling lobby.

The assertion you made about not being a danger to yourself and other road users is clearly wrong given what you said. You couldn't spot a policeman at a set of lights on a road that as you say was perfectly clear. I am afraid to say that to carry on jumping red lights, one day your luck is going to run out and you are going to end up dead. 

Just my thoughts on the matter.


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## martint235 (23 Jul 2010)

marinyork said:


> I see a RLJer about once a month, I do wish the rest of you would calm down and stop exaggerating. It gives cycling a very bad image that people constantly exaggerate it.




Once a month? Do you live on a farm or something? 

I will frequently see 2 or 3, sometimes more, at one red light particularly on my way in to work.


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## Femto (23 Jul 2010)

I agree that only a few do it in Bradford, where I find myself a lot of the time but I would say that there aren't many days where I don't see *anyone* jump a red.


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## Sheffield_Tiger (23 Jul 2010)

l4dva said:


> This morning I got pulled over after jumping a red right.... the road was perfectly clear I was in no danger to myself or any other road users
> .............
> I don't know where that copper was hiding because I didn't see him at the lights but he saw me. They are out there to get you!!!




Right...so let's get this right

You know the road was clear
You knew the light was red
You didn't see the full grown policeman

Now let's say that policemen was a kid crossing the road, knowing the road was clear and the light to be against the cyclist, steps out from wherever the copper was...

If you couldn't see a policeman then there may have been another hazard that you couldn't see...get my drift?


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## martint235 (23 Jul 2010)

4F said:


> Popcorn is ready




I've had my say. Any popcorn left?


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## mcshroom (23 Jul 2010)

martint235 said:


> Once a month? Do you live on a farm or something?
> 
> I will frequently see 2 or 3, sometimes more, at one red light particularly on my way in to work.



I'd be surprised if I saw one that often, then again their aren't may lights to jump in rural Cumbria. It's like riding without lights; the lack of street lighting tends to persuade most cyclists not to take the ninja approach


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## ianrauk (23 Jul 2010)

Try a morning commute through London Paul.... You will see a whole years worth in on one at certain lights.




marinyork said:


> I see a RLJer about once a month, I do wish the rest of you would calm down and stop exaggerating. It gives cycling a very bad image that people constantly exaggerate it.


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## JamesAC (23 Jul 2010)

BentMikey said:


> Good, I hope they fine you every time you jump a light. I hate you 'kers who jump lights. One of you caused my friend a serious back injury after crashing into him, and I'm tired of taking the blame for your p1$ poor riding from every ranty motorist.
> 
> There are loads of good riders who don't jump lights. It's only a bad minority like yourself that cause these problems. Now go and play in the traffic or something.



+1. If you break the law, and get caught and fined, don't winge .


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## SatNavSaysStraightOn (23 Jul 2010)

Never jumped a red light and don't like cyclists who do. But I have stopped for a green traffic light  which made the pedestrain's day when my response to 'it's green!' was 'missed that one!' 

If you drive, would you go through on red in a car, or should that read 'do you drive through red lights in a car? No, then why as a cyclist? Serious shame the police office gave the game away though.


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## 4F (23 Jul 2010)

martint235 said:


> I've had my say. Any popcorn left?




Yep, here you go ....


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## mr_cellophane (23 Jul 2010)

I hope they are also on Cable Street where RLJ cyclists are a danger to themselves (not that I really care about that), other cyclists and motorists.

Only 6 weeks, should be a permanent presence.


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## Jezston (23 Jul 2010)

aramok said:


> Never jumped a red light and don't like cyclists who do. But I have stopped for a green traffic light  which made the pedestrain's day when my response to 'it's green!' was 'missed that one!'



LOL I've done the same! I think I get confused when you get pedestrians crossing even when the light is green (and the man red) when there's no cars around and end up stopping. And waiting for it to turn red. Then realising I'm a numpty.

But back to the OP - I can understand your anger having just got fined for something you don't think was wrong. Hopefully from the responses you've read here you'll realise the miriad reasons why you were wrong, and won't do it again.


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## Eoin Rua (23 Jul 2010)

l4dva said:


> Lets face it we all jump lights...just like every other cyclist



Sounding like an echo, but no we don't...sometimes think it funny when I'm stopped at lights (young guy, clad in lycra, race bike) and older (30+) men and women in hi-vis, panniers, old bikes just cruise through reds, all I can say is good luck to you!

_edit:_ And if you do get fined for breaking the law then fair enough, you deserve it!


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## marinyork (23 Jul 2010)

martint235 said:


> Once a month? Do you live on a farm or something?
> 
> I will frequently see 2 or 3, sometimes more, at one red light particularly on my way in to work.



No, I live in a major metropolitan area and see plenty of cyclists. They don't jump lights. I have however in 2010 seen a fair bit pavement cycling. You're putting forward your view that it's the end of civilisation as we know it, I'm putting forward the view that people jumping red lights in london and people going on about it all the time gets us outside London a lot of aggro for something that is pretty rare. 

I would have thought it obvious that if someone thinks a lot of people are going to be using the smurf highways that the police will be out patrolling them at some point.


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## 4F (23 Jul 2010)

marinyork said:


> No, I live in a major metropolitan area and see plenty of cyclists. They don't jump lights. I have however in 2010 seen a fair bit pavement cycling. You're putting forward your view that it's the end of civilisation as we know it, I'm putting forward the view that people jumping red lights in london and people going on about it all the time gets us outside London a lot of aggro for something that is pretty rare.
> 
> I would have thought it obvious that if someone thinks a lot of people are going to be using the smurf highways that the police will be out patrolling them at some point.



I wouldn't say it is rare at all. I don't see many other cyclists on my commute through Ipswich but would say that on average half of them RLJ


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## Femto (23 Jul 2010)




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## BSRU (23 Jul 2010)

l4dva said:


> This morning I got pulled over after jumping a red right.... the road was perfectly clear I was in no danger to myself or any other road users but I blatently jumped the light and got fined £30!! I was in the wrong shouldn't of jumped the lights blah blah sh*t happens.... or dose it!
> 
> The copper tells me boris spent X amount of money on these blues lanes blah blah we are here patroling the entire route for the next 6 weeks - so basically they are picking up anyone who jumps lights etc and giving them a fine. I continued my journey to see 2 other cyclists pulled over by police officers on motorbikes issuing tickets to them.
> 
> ...



So can I burgle your house tomorrow when your out, I will not break anything or steal anything just have a poke around, I know it is against the law but no-one will get hurt.


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## Lizban (23 Jul 2010)

In London what % do you think RLJ?

I'd guess 35% any offers?


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## BentMikey (23 Jul 2010)

ISTR that TfL report suggesting that on the junctions measured, 84% would wait for red, so about half your guess, Lizban.


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## Tinuts (23 Jul 2010)

BentMikey said:


> Good, I hope they fine you every time you jump a light. I hate you 'kers who jump lights. One of you caused my friend a serious back injury after crashing into him, and I'm tired of taking the blame for your p1$ poor riding from every ranty motorist.
> 
> There are loads of good riders who don't jump lights. It's only a bad minority like yourself that cause these problems. Now go and play in the traffic or something.




So true. Witness the rash of anti-cyclist letters in today's Metro (London) if you want to see the effect RLJing has on the public's perception of cyclists . 

I'm not defending any of the letter writers - in fact I've just banged off a response to one who spouted the usual "road tax" nonsense argument - but it just amazes me that some cyclists don't *get* RLJing in the same way that some motorists don't *get* using a mobile whilst driving! And guess who comes off worse in the press..........?


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## Davidc (23 Jul 2010)

Pity the fine isn't a lot higher. Hope they catch a load more RLJing cyclists over the next few weeks.

When I'm in London I see far too many, and more than anywhere elso I go.


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## gaz (23 Jul 2010)

l4dva said:


> Lets face it we all jump lights - I do it when I know its safe I take the risk and jump them to save time....* just like every other cyclist* - everyone knows this. Over six weeks the police are going to pick up bucket loads of cash in fines. It's unjust, it feels like to me they are just recovering money spent on the blue cycle lanes and now they are just targeting cyclists to foot the bill!



that is unfair. you are saying it's ok because everyone else does it.. open your eyes and look around. I don't jump red lights, plenty of others don't as well.
The police aren't just targeting cylists either. They are targeting all road users on the route, if you brake the law, you brake the law and you should take the fine and just move on.

To sum it up, RLJ if you want, but don't moan when you get a fine. and you won't get any respect from the rest of us.
[/rant]


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## benb (23 Jul 2010)

With a little tweaking:



l4dva said:


> This morning I got pulled over after speeding... the road was perfectly clear I was in no danger to myself or any other road users but I blatently went over the speed limit and got fined £30!! I was in the wrong shouldn't of sped blah blah sh*t happens.... or dose it!
> 
> Lets face it we all break the law from time to time - I do it when I know its safe I take the risk and speed to save time.... just like every other driver - everyone knows this. After all, I'm more capable of deciding a safe speed to drive at than the people who set the speed limits. Plus I only ever have 3 pints, maybe 4, plus one for the road when I'm driving.
> 
> They are out there to get you!!!



No offence, but you're an antisocial selfish idiot.


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## 2Loose (23 Jul 2010)

gaz said:


> The police aren't just targeting cylists either. They are targeting all road users on the route, if you break the law, you break the law and you should take the fine and just move on.
> [/rant]



That sounds good. 
I guess they'll be catching all of the dangerous road users, including mobile phone using drivers. Just glad they will not be excluding other road users and just targetting RLJ'ers.


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## sunnyjim (23 Jul 2010)

benb said:


> With a little tweaking:
> 
> 
> 
> No offence, but you're an antisocial selfish idiot.






Absolutely.




OTOH, of course, it could  be a short hairy chap possibly of scandinavian extraction...?


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## ianrauk (23 Jul 2010)

l4dva is no troll, however he is certainly very misguided on this as many posts have pointed out. 



sunnyjim said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## gaz (23 Jul 2010)

2Loose said:


> That sounds good.
> I guess they'll be catching all of the dangerous road users, including mobile phone using drivers. Just glad they will not be excluding other road users and just targetting RLJ'ers.


They just target rlj cyclists in the city. I think they give 1 ticket to other vehicles for every 5 they give to cyclists


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## Soltydog (23 Jul 2010)

TBH there's no defence for RLJing, but I think the police time would be better spent at various junctions where motor vehicles jump red lights. They are a bigger danger to the general public than RLJ cyclists


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## 4F (23 Jul 2010)

ianrauk said:


> l4dva is no troll, however he is certainly very misguided on this as many posts have pointed out.



L4dva is actually a quite decent chap and donated a frame to me for a ongoing fixed project but I would agree that on this point he is misguided.


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## sunnyjim (23 Jul 2010)

ianrauk said:


> l4dva is no troll, however he is certainly very misguided on this as many posts have pointed out.



I bow to your knowledge- but still have difficulty accepting that anyone could be such a tit.


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## kevin_cambs_uk (23 Jul 2010)

I see 5 -6 every day in cambridge, it boils my blood, they should all be fined, they give the rest of us a bad name


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## skrx (23 Jul 2010)

martint235 said:


> I think the fine should be upped to at least £100.


But £100 is the fine for a car driver crashing into a cyclist. To be proportionate the fine for RLJing should be at least £1000. At least, according to the likes of the Daily Mail.


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## clarion (23 Jul 2010)

I can't stand RLJers. They're just admitting their failure to ride properly.

I've seen a lot of cyclists pulled over by the filth on CS7 in hte last week. And one car. Heaven only knows what you have to do as a motorist to get pulled over in this campaign, because I've pointed out motorised infractions to not otherwise busy Officers who have ignored them. Perhaps that one wiped his bum on a photo of the PC's mother or something.

I saw a cyclist setting off from an encounter this morning and, if he hadn't had earphones in (and been fiddling with his ipod as he was riding along, FFS!) I'd have asked him how it went when I caught up with him.

Just to reiterate: I am very happy that RLJers are being ticketed. If only they did it for all those who crash through junctions wrapped in a ton of metal, I'd be even happier.


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## Domeo (23 Jul 2010)

l4dva said:


> Lets face it we all jump lights -



I don't and tough luck.


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## gaz (23 Jul 2010)

So far, I've seen 4 motorists pulled over and one cyclist. So from my point of view they aren't targeting us.
I've got a contact in the met, and I have been aware this policing would take place for sometime. They are there to make the roads safe for everyone, so they will fine the people they see doing wrong.

It's also not like these coppers are pcso's. They are traffic officers with great knowledge of the road. If given the chance, be polite and you may get some advice you can't buy.


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## SavageHoutkop (23 Jul 2010)

marinyork said:


> I see a RLJer about once a month, I do wish the rest of you would calm down and stop exaggerating. It gives cycling a very bad image that people constantly exaggerate it.



You have a nice commute then. I have at least one a commute, almost every commute, and many more if you count those who like wobbling halfway into the junction while attempting to trackstand. And, of course, if you count pedestrian crossings, the number skyrockets - I'd estimate half the people I see daily see pedestrian crossings as fair game (irrespective of whether pedestrians are walking across at the time).


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## SavageHoutkop (23 Jul 2010)

BentMikey said:


> ISTR that TfL report suggesting that on the junctions measured, 84% would wait for red, so about half your guess, Lizban.



but wouldn't the junctions measured be fairly busy ones (just because you wouldn't monitor a boring one?). So, taking into account other minor junctions, I'd expect the number to be higher [note, I haven't read the report, so can't be sure how they chose them].


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## ComedyPilot (23 Jul 2010)

They could be on every traffic light, every day for a year / 2 years etc, they'd NEVER catch me or fine me, because I don't RLJ - simple. 

Fair play to the police for doing it, but I would want pressure putting on the govt to use the money from the fines to be used on cycling infrastructure........




[was that a pig flying past my window...?]


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## trsleigh (23 Jul 2010)

Lizban said:


> In London what % do you think RLJ?
> 
> I'd guess 35% any offers?



Some mornings I'd say 40%
RLJ really annoys me too.
I expect the OP has got the message by now.


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## XmisterIS (23 Jul 2010)

I ride on the pavements when they are empty and the police don't care. Seriously, I have ridden on the pavement straight past a police car, on several occasions, and they don't do anything.

I think it's different in London because there are so many people. Where I live, you can ride for a mile and see perhaps five cars and one pedestrian.

I don't jump red lights ... because there aren't any!






I do live in darkest 'aaaaampshur though.


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## PBancroft (23 Jul 2010)

As has been said so many times before on this thread, we don't all jump red lights. I don't. In all honesty I do get a little offended when people assume I do - I get this quite often when people want to find a reason to criticise my choice of cycling (rather than driving) somewhere. Sure, I don't live in a big City, but still - there's really no need. It's selfish behaviour, potentially dangerous, and paints other people in a bad light.

For what its worth, however, I do see more cars run red lights than cyclists. True, I see more cars than bikes on the road, but the point remains. On this pedestrian crossing, for example, I regularly see at least one car run the red whilst a pedestrian is about to cross. The other week I counted three cars run through it, one whilst the pedestrian (me!) was halfway across the road. Maybe the motorist hadn't seen me, and thought it was "safe" to go through. Even if so a moment later and there would have been a dead or seriously injured Kaipaith. What makes me most sad about this is a matter of metres away there is a Children's Home and in the other direction there is a Sixth Form... in other words chances are when someone is hit it's going to be a kid.

I find it very hard to have any sympathy for anyone caught jumping red lights, no matter how "biased" the Police are being to one road group over another. You deserved the fine, and I hope they carry on doing it beyond six weeks.


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## hackbike 666 (23 Jul 2010)

2Loose said:


> No we don't. Some cyclists follow the rules of the road, out of consideration for themselves, others and the law.




Plus one billion.



Soltydog said:


> TBH there's no defence for RLJing, but I think the police time would be better spent at various junctions where motor vehicles jump red lights. They are a bigger danger to the general public than RLJ cyclists




Why the f&ck don't they sort those morons out driving with a mobile phone glued to their ears...Im all for this busting RLJers but what about one of the biggest dangers? Mobile phones.

My guess is they all do it anyway so it's easier to turn a blind eye to motorists using mobile phones while driving.

Yes I saw the comments in the metro...How many of those hypocrites dash across the road when crossing against the red man with mobile phone glued to their ears.Morons.


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## l4dva (23 Jul 2010)

Wow didn't realise you guys were so touchy about this subject - wish I didn't mention anything now! I was mearly trying to point out to all the hundreds that do jump lights in london (myself included) that the police are patroling that route! 

I know I was in the wrong, I didn't put up a fuss or anything and acepted the fine. and no i didn't see any problem with jumping lights until now, I used to do it (in my opinion safely) but we could argue that forever and not get anywhere. People in London jump traffic lights a hell of a lot (not everyone before someone picks up on that), I didn't jump lights so much in birmingham but since moving here I guess I've picked up a bad habit! 

To those I have affended today... well I'll think twice about jumping lights next time and ill think twice about warning others of the conquences if they do so as well!


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## 4F (23 Jul 2010)

l4dva said:


> Wow didn't realise you guys were so touchy about this subject - wish I didn't mention anything now! I was mearly trying to point out to all the hundreds that do jump lights in london (myself included) that the police are patroling that route!
> 
> I know I was in the wrong, I didn't put up a fuss or anything and acepted the fine. and no i didn't see any problem with jumping lights until now, I used to do it (in my opinion safely) but we could argue that forever and not get anywhere. People in London jump traffic lights a hell of a lot (not everyone before someone picks up on that), I didn't jump lights so much in birmingham but since moving here I guess I've picked up a bad habit!
> 
> To those I have affended today... well I'll think twice about jumping lights next time and ill think twice about warning others of the conquences if they do so as well!



You were such a nice bloke when you were in Brum, that's what London does to people


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## hackbike 666 (23 Jul 2010)

l4dva while I dislike rljers immensely I dislike mobile phones even more...in fact I dislike mobile phones bordering on hatred.


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## martint235 (23 Jul 2010)

ComedyPilot said:


> They could be on every traffic light, every day for a year / 2 years etc, they'd NEVER catch me or fine me, because I don't RLJ - simple.
> 
> Fair play to the police for doing it, but I would want pressure putting on the govt to use the money from the fines to be used on cycling infrastructure........
> 
> ...



You found the right thread then........


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## hackbike 666 (23 Jul 2010)

I think they spend quite a bit on cycling infrastructure.....We have some lovely cycle lanes.


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## gaz (23 Jul 2010)

l4dva said:


> Wow didn't realise you guys were so touchy about this subject - wish I didn't mention anything now! I was mearly trying to point out to all the hundreds that do jump lights in london (myself included) that the police are patroling that route!



It was mentioned in another thread at least a week ago that they would be out there for 6 weeks on the CSH


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## tr85858 (23 Jul 2010)

What a sanctimonious bunch of comments. I'd rather the police spent their time on something worthwhile like catching bike thieves, drug dealers or rapists than picking on cyclists who jump red lights.
In many other countries it's perfectly acceptable to go through a red light if you're turning right - we should have the same system here on left turns for all traffic including cars.
In this case the law is an ass. Wouldn't life be boring if everyone followed it to the letter without ever asking why...or bravely doing their own thing


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## ferret fur (23 Jul 2010)

Wow it surely is fantastic to see the independent revolutionary spirit of youth is still aflame in this country. Such a _courageous_ action as 'jumping red lights' for the good of all humanity! It makes you proud to be British


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## Arch (23 Jul 2010)

tr85858 said:


> In many other countries it's perfectly acceptable to go through a red light if you're turning right - we should have the same system here on left turns for all traffic including cars.



But we don't, so bog off and live somewhere else.

I passed a chap today on the way home - middle aged, riding a really nice unusual cargo bike - the sort with a big frame out the front, with a big wooden box on it, the bike in green metal flake finish. Really pretty. Was surprised I didn't know him since the bike was so distinctive.

First red we came to, he came past me, and over the line and hung about until there was a gap and then went - it was so busy that he could only go about a second before the lights changed anyway. Second red (ped crossing) he just sailed through. Lost him in town, then waiting at a red near home, he sailed past me on the outside and turned left through the red. Utter Tw*t - and in the end he didn't get very far, did he, if I saw him 3 times?

You jump lights, you get caught - good!

(I also wish a few more drivers would get done for phones and so on - but them getting away with it doesn't mean cyclists should)


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## Brains (23 Jul 2010)

Are you sure it was Boris ?
If you were in the City of London, then the area is not in Boris's bailiwick.

In 2009 11% of the City traffic was cyclists
700 and something motor vehicles got fines for misdemeanors (RLJing, Mobiles, no mot/tax/insurance,, drunk driving, speeding, seatbelts, driving without due care, dangerous driving ......)
1,200 cyclists were also fined for various misdemeanors (errr, RLJ'ing and um er .....)

Go figure why the other 12,000+ motor vehicle drivers were not fined


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## 400bhp (23 Jul 2010)

What exactly is it that people dislike so much?

Deeper than the statement "I don't like people jumping red lights" please.


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## ferret fur (23 Jul 2010)

400bhp said:


> What exactly is it that people dislike so much?
> 
> Deeper than the statement "I don't like people jumping red lights" please.



Er..

1: It is illegal
2: As you_ may_ have spotted from all the above: It allows all sorts of crap drivers to justify their crap driving by claiming that 'all cyclists jump red lights' Therfore all cyclists are selfish, smug w@nkers . Therefore it doesn't matter how crappily the crap driving is driving as it can't be as bad as the cyclist they have just left hooked & left lying in a heap in the road.


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## ComedyPilot (23 Jul 2010)

martint235 said:


> You found the right thread then........


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## joolsybools (23 Jul 2010)

Jezston said:


> LOL I've done the same! I think I get confused *when you get pedestrians crossing even when the light is green (and the man red)* when there's no cars around and end up stopping. And waiting for it to turn red. Then realising I'm a numpty.
> 
> But back to the OP - I can understand your anger having just got fined for something you don't think was wrong. Hopefully from the responses you've read here you'll realise the miriad reasons why you were wrong, and won't do it again.




I tend to find that carrying on regardless (whilst giving death stares) gets pedestrians to stop when they are crossing at red lights and its your right of way. However tinkling on the bell tends to make them stride out. Conclude from that what you will. 

In regards to OP:

JUMPING RED LIGHTS IS ILLEGAL AND GIVES CYCLISTS A BAD NAME - STOP IT!


Gosh this thread just keeps on growing!


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## al78 (24 Jul 2010)

tr85858 said:


> What a sanctimonious bunch of comments. I'd rather the police spent their time on something worthwhile like catching bike thieves, drug dealers or rapists than picking on cyclists who jump red lights.



http://en.wikipedia....i/False_dilemma



tr85858 said:


> Wouldn't life be boring if everyone followed it to the letter without ever asking why...or bravely doing their own thing



No. I think you will find that crime, and fear of crime is one of the bigger drains on quality of life in this country.


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## gaz (24 Jul 2010)

tr85858 said:


> What a sanctimonious bunch of comments. I'd rather the police spent their time on something worthwhile like catching bike thieves, drug dealers or rapists than picking on cyclists who jump red lights.



Because traffic cops are known for catching rapists.


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## hackbike 666 (24 Jul 2010)

We have traffic cops?

Oh yeah...we have traffic cops...probably no t the same cops nicking cyclists though eh?



ferret fur said:


> Er..
> 
> 1: It is illegal
> 2: As you_ may_ have spotted from all the above: It allows all sorts of crap drivers to justify their crap driving by claiming that 'all cyclists jump red lights' Therfore all cyclists are selfish, smug w@nkers . Therefore it doesn't matter how crappily the crap driving is driving as it can't be as bad as the cyclist they have just left hooked.



Definitely...all the time I get this...Road tax and why don't any of us stop at red lights...Seems selfish and pointless to me and doesn't really save a lot of time.

I have been thinking for a long time that although at times the human race can be very clever...I think the stupidity aspect ruins it a bit...Cyclists jumping red lights is the same mentality as motorists doing a dangerous pass to save a few seconds (and rushing up to the next traffic jam)......also how many times have you had a comedian jump a red light only to catch them up and be stuck behind them?

Also RLJing didn't exist when I first started commuting.AFAIK


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## hoski (24 Jul 2010)

tr85858 said:


> In this case the law is an ass. Wouldn't life be boring if everyone followed it to the letter without ever asking why...or bravely doing their own thing



Yes, because breaking traffic laws is SO EXCITING.


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## ufkacbln (24 Jul 2010)

This morning I got pulled over after jumping a red right.... the road was perfectly clear I was in no danger to myself or any other road users but I blatently jumped the light and got fined £30!! I was in the wrong shouldn't of jumped the lights blah blah sh*t happens.... or dose it! 

The copper tells me boris spent X amount of money on these roads blah blah we are here patroling the entire route for the next 6 weeks - so basically they are picking up anyone who jumps lights etc and giving them a fine. I continued my journey to see 2 other motorists pulled over by police officers on motorbikes issuing tickets to them. 

Lets face it we all jump lights - I do it when I know its safe I take the risk and jump them to save time.... just like every other driver - everyone knows this. Over six weeks the police are going to pick up bucket loads of cash in fines. It's unjust, it feels like to me they are just recovering money spent on the road networks and now they are just targeting motorists to foot the bill! 

Please any one who uses this cycle route be very carefull for the next 6 weeks and stop at the lights, I don't know where that copper was hiding because I didn't see him at the lights but he saw me. They are out there to get you!!!


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## ufkacbln (24 Jul 2010)

Foundan organisation called "SafeLights" and prove how dangerous lights are because you have to look out for them instead of looking at the road


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## Andrew_P (24 Jul 2010)

I have jumped an empty pedistrian lights, I have also bumped up on to the pavement and gone round using the green man on empty pavements and no cars. I feel dirty now. At least thread has deciphered what not seems pretty obivous RLJ couldn't figure it out.


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## summerdays (24 Jul 2010)

If you are really desperate not to wait for the lights to change - and just occasionally I am that desperate ... then hop off your bike ... walk it across the junction and get back on the other side.... its only really worth it when you are really really late, or really big queue in a narrow road that you can't filter to the front.

Occasionally pedestrians at pedestrians lights tell me to go anyway - but I've normally stopped by then anyway.


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## hackbike 666 (24 Jul 2010)

I think i've put myself under too much stress in the past by just not giving myself enough time...or it's just too tight to get to work...so I have found on occasions that time is tight and I have had to rush...although I have never been a RLJer...When I was ill and struggling on the bike for two years I started giving myself an extra fifteen minutes to commute...Now I am better I still give myself the same amount of time as when I was ill....meaning I have time to park the bike...change/get a drink and sit down/chat for fifteen minutes before I go out on my first job.


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## BSRU (24 Jul 2010)

RLJ's are missing out on the excellent workout from starting from lots of standing starts.


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## Matthames (24 Jul 2010)

BSRU said:


> RLJ's are missing out on the excellent workout from starting from lots of standing starts.



Not to mention trying to impress people with track stands as you wait for the lights to change


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## Bird Brain (25 Jul 2010)

I jumped a red traffic light or was that flew over it.


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## Mad Doug Biker (25 Jul 2010)

I was wondering if the original post was a slight p**s take, but, anyway. 

I, as a rule don't jump red lights because I feel that, with people in vehicles watching me, I should keep my dignity and be seen to be doing the right thing.

That said, I have on VERY rare occasions jumped reds, BUT, what I am talking about is at a completely deserted junction at about 4am with myself not being able to trigger the traffic light sensors, and, to be fair, I do stop and wait for a while in the vain hope that the lights change


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## summerdays (25 Jul 2010)

Mad Doug Biker said:


> That said, I have on VERY rare occasions jumped reds, BUT, what I am talking about is at a completely deserted junction at about 4am with myself not being able to trigger the traffic light sensors, and, to be fair, I do stop and wait for a while in the vain hope that the lights change



That* isn't jumping a red light* - if you are unable to trigger the light then the light isn't deemed to be working - for you - and you can jump the light. I have several around my area that I can't trigger but normally there is another vehicle and that's ok. The one where its really annoying is one where if I don't trigger it, it leaves me on red, but gives oncoming traffic able to go straight ahead and turn right (normally the right turns have to wait for traffic coming from my direction) - so the first I know that it hasn't been triggered its already too late to try jumping the light. And yes I have reported that I can't trigger those signals.


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## Matthames (25 Jul 2010)

Mad Doug Biker said:


> I was wondering if the original post was a slight p**s take, but, anyway.
> 
> I, as a rule don't jump red lights because I feel that, with people in vehicles watching me, I should keep my dignity and be seen to be doing the right thing.
> 
> That said, I have on VERY rare occasions jumped reds, BUT, what I am talking about is at a completely deserted junction at about 4am with myself not being able to trigger the traffic light sensors, and, to be fair, I do stop and wait for a while in the vain hope that the lights change



Those lights I hate with a passion. There is one of those near where I live that is ironically on a national cycle route. If there are no cars around to set them off, you are left stranded on the junction. Your only real option then is to get off the bike and use the ped crossing instead. 

You can make it more likely for those sensors to pick you up if you ride along the lines of the loop that is buried under the tarmac. Another neat trick is to fit a magnet to the bottom of your bottom bracket.


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## alasdairgf (25 Jul 2010)

summerdays said:


> That* isn't jumping a red light* - if you are unable to trigger the light then the light isn't deemed to be working - for you - and you can jump the light.


Is this the law? Or simply common sense? (Common sense unfortunately not being admissible in court, I believe...!)


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## Flyingfox (25 Jul 2010)

As a car driver and cyclist, I wonder what cyclists would say if I drove up to a red light in my car and went through it because I saw the junction clear and would be of no danger to anyone. The majority would say I should be fined and have points deducted because I broke the law. Rules are there for all road users not just those with engines.


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## summerdays (25 Jul 2010)

alasdairgf said:


> Is this the law? Or simply common sense? (Common sense unfortunately not being admissible in court, I believe...!)



I was told that it was within the law to treat the lights as broken if I can't trigger them - as they are not set up correctly and therefore not working - which doesn't mean sailing through them ... but going cautiously as drivers from other directions may not be expecting you to go.



There is another set of lights that I do intentionally jump the last 3 seconds on red - as the traffic engineers in their infinite wisdom have set the cycle lights to go green to turn right down the A38 to be on at exactly the same time as traffic joining from the cyclist's immediate right join as well - except half of them are crossing the A38. So most car drivers don't realise that you have a green light and that you are technically on the main road just before them and assume you are jumping the light when you aren't. If I jump the light just before it goes green - I avoid the carnage that can result. I have complained and so have the local cycle campaign.


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## marinyork (25 Jul 2010)

Flyingfox said:


> As a car driver and cyclist, I wonder what cyclists would say if I drove up to a red light in my car and went through it because I saw the junction clear and would be of no danger to anyone. The majority would say I should be fined and have points deducted because I broke the law. Rules are there for all road users not just those with engines.



Er, motorists do do this and do it much more often than cyclists do!


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## atbman (25 Jul 2010)

As someone who' been on local radio a time or several, I'd recommend anyone who justifies RLJing, (on the grounds that they only do it safely), or hops on pavements, (otgttodis), to try and support cyclists on a phone-in programme.

Before you can get to make your points about the benefits of cycling to the individual and to society and to traffic generally, you'll have to wade thro' umpteen callers who are incandescent about the law-breaking behaviour of cyclists. The fact that they very rarely cause injuries, still less fatalities, nor do they hold up other traffic, gets lost in the static.

I have no doubt that, if such riding was extremely rare, drivers would still moan about us, but it would be much more obvious that their arguments didn't hold water. Unfortunately, RLJers and pavement riders do it sufficently often to provide non-cycling members of the public with grounds for valid criticism.

The OP's argument that he knew what was and wasn't safe is exactly the same as those drivers (safespeed anyone?) who moan about being done by a speed camera (or PC?) they didn't see and about how they know exactly when it's safe to break the speed limit.

The argument that it's safer to RLJ is nonsense. I never did it and suffered less than a handful of hooks or other dangerous behaviour over several decades of 2wheel commuting and neither did I annoy drivers by my actions. RLJers spout self-justifying rubbish - basically, it's about "saving" time and, by and large, it doesn't.


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## Bird Brain (25 Jul 2010)

marinyork said:


> Er, motorists do do this and do it much more often than cyclists do!



Rubbish.


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## wafflycat (25 Jul 2010)

Bird Brain said:


> Rubbish.




Certainly in my neck of the woods I see far more motorists jumping red lights than cyclists. That's not to say that I never see a RLJ-ing cyclist; I do. But more often than not, it's motorists doing it. And that's irrespective of the mode of transport I'm using (feet, pedals or motor)


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## DrSquirrel (25 Jul 2010)

l4dva said:


> Lets face it we all jump lights




No we don't.

Try talking for yourself not for us all.

If you were sure it was that clear - there would have been no Police to catch you, or you would have seen them and waited.


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## mcshroom (25 Jul 2010)

wafflycat said:


> Certainly in my neck of the woods I see far more motorists jumping red lights than cyclists. That's not to say that I never see a RLJ-ing cyclist; I do. But more often than not, it's motorists doing it. And that's irrespective of the mode of transport I'm using (feet, pedals or motor)



I think this is a London/the rest of us issue. I remember it being standard for at least two cars to go through the lights after they had gone red, in fact I almost had a taxi rear end me once because I stopped as the light went red. Since moving to Cumbria (and also when visiting family in Rotherham) I've seen far less car RLJing.

Also the lights seem (to me anyway) to have a longer period when all sides are on red in London than elsewhere, which I would suggest is a reaction to the amount of RLJing going on.


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## wafflycat (25 Jul 2010)

Go to Cambridge & the RLJ-ing is horrendous - motor & pedal cycle alike. But nearer to home, in Norfolk, I see far more motoring RLJ-ing going on, even in Norwich itself.


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## marinyork (25 Jul 2010)

atbman said:


> *I have no doubt that, if such riding was extremely rare, drivers would still moan about us*, but it would be much more obvious that their arguments didn't hold water. Unfortunately, RLJers and pavement riders do it sufficently often to provide non-cycling members of the public with grounds for valid criticism.



Grow up. Cyclists are an outgroup. Your basic idea is completely wrong. A shouty group of car drivers will complain loudly irrespective of danger caused/frequency/whether another group does it. It'd be big up if you'd actually acknowledge that not everybody believes the 'if cyclists behaved better we'd be respected stuff'.


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## Arch (25 Jul 2010)

marinyork said:


> Grow up. Cyclists are an outgroup. Your basic idea is completely wrong. A shouty group of car drivers will complain loudly irrespective of danger caused/frequency/whether another group does it. It'd be big up if you'd actually acknowledge that not everybody believes the 'if cyclists behaved better we'd be respected stuff'.



Um, I think you're basically violently agreeing with abtman - there are some people who'll complain, no matter what.


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## marinyork (25 Jul 2010)

Arch said:


> Um, I think you're basically violently agreeing with abtman - there are some people who'll complain, no matter what.



Good. I see things more of a case of I'd really rather people didn't do it.


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## Midnight (25 Jul 2010)

l4dva said:


> Lets face it we all jump lights



Nope, I don't.

I see many other road users RLJing, motorists, motorbikes, taxis and cyclists every day but I just smile smuggly to myself knowing that I'm far less likely to have an accident or be fined. If others want to take the risk, then more fool them!


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## BentMikey (25 Jul 2010)

Flyingfox said:


> As a car driver and cyclist, I wonder what cyclists would say if I drove up to a red light in my car and went through it because I saw the junction clear and would be of no danger to anyone. The majority would say I should be fined and have points deducted because I broke the law. Rules are there for all road users not just those with engines.



In reality, lots of drivers go through red lights - I see more drivers than cyclists doing this on my commute, 45 mile round trip in and out of London. The difference is cyclists are an outgroup, so are panned for it, whilst most people tend to either ignore or forgive the motons.


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## wafflycat (25 Jul 2010)

BentMikey said:


> In reality, lots of drivers go through red lights - I see more drivers than cyclists doing this on my commute, 45 mile round trip in and out of London. The difference is cyclists are an outgroup, so are panned for it, whilst most people tend to either ignore or forgive the motons.




As any fule noe, it's only Lycra-Lout-Psychlists wot jump red lights. Legitimate road users pay road tax and are law-abiding, much maligned and put-upon, as well as being a source of revenue for guv'n'mint. Any fule thinking they've seen a motorist RLJ must surely be fibbing or what they've seen is a psychlist in disguise!


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## hackbike 666 (25 Jul 2010)

On my route more cyclists jump red lights than motons.In fact it's a different type of jump...whereas they stop (if lucky) then proceed to...but most blatantly ignore the lights.Whereas the motons I see just jump through at either amber or red at speed.


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## Sheffield_Tiger (26 Jul 2010)

wafflycat said:


> Certainly in my neck of the woods I see far more motorists jumping red lights than cyclists. That's not to say that I never see a RLJ-ing cyclist; I do. But more often than not, it's motorists doing it. And that's irrespective of the mode of transport I'm using (feet, pedals or motor)



I agree that more motorists RLJ than cyclists.

The confusion arises because it's more common I reckon to see a cyclist carry on through a light that has been red for some time than a car (though certainly not unknown), whereas most motorised RLJs are the 1 2 or 3 cars that go through what they would always claim as "on amber" (for their "on amber" read "was already red")

No difference in that it is still RLJing but it does get percieved differently (incorrectly)


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## DrSquirrel (26 Jul 2010)

BentMikey said:


> In reality, lots of drivers go through red lights - I see more drivers than cyclists doing this on my commute, 45 mile round trip in and out of London. The difference is cyclists are an outgroup, so are panned for it, whilst most people tend to either ignore or forgive the motons.



You can often tell other lights are turning red as cars come through faster and closer.


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## 400bhp (26 Jul 2010)

ferret fur said:


> Er..
> 
> 1: It is illegal
> 2: As you_ may_ have spotted from all the above: It allows all sorts of crap drivers to justify their crap driving by claiming that 'all cyclists jump red lights' Therfore all cyclists are selfish, smug w@nkers . Therefore it doesn't matter how crappily the crap driving is driving as it can't be as bad as the cyclist they have just left hooked & left lying in a heap in the road.



1. Not enough for any intelligent person to have utter hatred of something.
2. Are you intimating that RLJ make car drivers more likely to drive into a "law abiding" cyclist?


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## 400bhp (26 Jul 2010)

BentMikey said:


> whilst most people tend to either ignore or forgive the motons.



I disagree mike. For example I use[d] several motor enthusiasts forums and spend a lot of my spare time around cars/racetracks etc and one of the largest amounts of vitroil is directed at car RLJ's (perhaps the largest is middle lane morons/poor lane discipline).

Car RLJ is generally far more dangerous than bike RLJ and is one area I am happy for cameras to be located a traffic lights.


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## BentMikey (26 Jul 2010)

Except that's not in line with reality. Everyone complains about cyclists jumping red lights, and we hardly ever hear about motons jumping them. What I said about the out group is exactly right.


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## 400bhp (26 Jul 2010)

BentMikey said:


> Except that's not in line with reality. Everyone complains about cyclists jumping red lights, and we hardly ever hear about motons jumping them. What I said about the out group is exactly right.



I've not disagreed with your point about the out group. Perhaos _you_ hear about "everyone" complaining about cyclists because you are directly affected (interestingly, ignoring this website I don't recall anyone complaining about cyclists RLJ). I probably hear more than the average of people complaining about car RLJ. I'm not convinced one outweighs the other in the general populace. 

Perhaps different in inner city London.


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## DrSquirrel (26 Jul 2010)

400bhp said:


> I disagree mike. For example I use[d] several motor enthusiasts forums and spend a lot of my spare time around cars/racetracks etc and one of the largest amounts of vitroil is directed at car RLJ's (perhaps the largest is middle lane morons/poor lane discipline).
> 
> Car RLJ is generally far more dangerous than bike RLJ and is one area I am happy for cameras to be located a traffic lights.



I reckon better would come from Red Light Cameras instead, though even better, speed cameras on the other side so you can stop people going extra fast not to get caught by the red 

After all - its more dangerous to speed through a junction than it is going above 30/40mph on a large dual carriage way 




BentMikey said:


> Except that's not in line with reality. Everyone complains about cyclists jumping red lights, and we hardly ever hear about motons jumping them. What I said about the out group is exactly right.



I do hear a lot of car owners moaning about the lights personally.


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## BigSteev (26 Jul 2010)

I think it serves you right for using these stupid cycle lanes anyway.


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## DrSquirrel (26 Jul 2010)

BigSteev said:


> I think it serves you right for using these stupid cycle lanes anyway.



When a blue strip covers more than half of the lane - how easy would it be NOT to "use" them...


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## Dan B (26 Jul 2010)

400bhp said:


> I disagree mike. For example I use[d] several motor enthusiasts forums and spend a lot of my spare time around cars/racetracks etc and one of the largest amounts of vitroil is directed at car RLJ's (perhaps the largest is middle lane morons/poor lane discipline).


I suspect "motor enthusiasts" view the majority of drivers as "cycling enthusiasts" view POBs. The largest amounts of vitroil I see directed at bike RLJ's is on bike forums ...


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## hackbike 666 (26 Jul 2010)

BentMikey said:


> Except that's not in line with reality. Everyone complains about cyclists jumping red lights, and we hardly ever hear about motons jumping them. What I said about the out group is exactly right.




I blame the press...it seems they have hyped it up into a frenzy.


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## schlafsack (26 Jul 2010)

hackbike 666 said:


> I blame the press...it seems they have hyped it up into a frenzy.



I'm not so sure it's a new thing. My dad still turns apoplectic over the topic of London cyclists, despite having moved to deepest, darkest Scotland over ten years ago. He's unable to pin down exactly why they anger him so much, but red light jumping was definitely on the list.


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## ferret fur (26 Jul 2010)

400bhp said:


> 1. Not enough for any intelligent person to have utter hatred of something.
> 2. Are you intimating that RLJ make car drivers more likely to drive into a "law abiding" cyclist?



1: Obviously. But unfortunately there are a lot of not very intelligent people out there who we all have to deal with.
2: Yes. 

maybe not deliberately, but if a car driver has a lack of respect for a cyclist's right to be there then they are likely to treat them accordingly. Acting illegally legitimises car drivers attitudes. This is rather brilliantly demonstrated by the Daily Mail's treatment of Jon Snow as reported on another thread. I'm not saying the avearge Mail reader would suddenly turn into a cyclist loving vegetarian but they get reinforcement of their prejudices every time some selfish idiot decides the law doesn't apply to them.


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## Twiggy (26 Jul 2010)

I'll freely admit I've jumped red lights. 

Like at two in the morning on a sensor based light, with no traffic around and I'd been sitting there for ten minutes. 
Or that time a pedestrian had crossed, and the lights changed afterwards to allow them to cross. 
Or that time when I was pelting down a hill and I couldn't bring myself to a stop till I was past the crossing. (aren't they supposed to change slowly btw?)


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## 400bhp (26 Jul 2010)

ferret fur said:


> 1: Obviously. But unfortunately there are a lot of not very intelligent people out there who we all have to deal with.
> 2: Yes.
> 
> maybe not deliberately, but if a car driver has a lack of respect for a cyclist's right to be there then they are likely to treat them accordingly. Acting illegally legitimises car drivers attitudes. This is rather brilliantly demonstrated by the Daily Mail's treatment of Jon Snow as reported on another thread. I'm not saying the avearge Mail reader would suddenly turn into a cyclist loving vegetarian but they get reinforcement of their prejudices every time some selfish idiot decides the law doesn't apply to them.



1. You quoted this as a reason. Are you retracting it now?

2. You are suggesting that RLJ is wrong because it upsets Daily Mail readers.  

I see where you are coming from; RLJ gives us a bad name in some sections of the populace but that's dumbing down to suit the lowest common denominator (the populace who are too stupid to realise that such actions befit the individual, not the fact they are riding a bike). 

In some circumstances and where common sense is applied I don't see it as a problem.


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## Davidc (26 Jul 2010)

Twiggy said:


> I'll freely admit I've jumped red lights.
> 
> *Like at two in the morning on a sensor based light, with no traffic around and I'd been sitting there for ten minutes. *
> Or that time a pedestrian had crossed, and the lights changed afterwards to allow them to cross.
> Or that time when I was pelting down a hill and I couldn't bring myself to a stop till I was past the crossing. (aren't they supposed to change slowly btw?)




The bold one's a faulty traffic light so its legal to pass it at red.


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## Number14 (26 Jul 2010)

l4dva said:


> This morning I got pulled over after jumping a red right.... the road was perfectly clear I was in no danger to myself or any other road users but I blatently jumped the light and got fined £30!! I was in the wrong shouldn't of jumped the lights blah blah sh*t happens.... or dose it!
> 
> The copper tells me boris spent X amount of money on these blues lanes blah blah we are here patroling the entire route for the next 6 weeks - so basically they are picking up anyone who jumps lights etc and giving them a fine. I continued my journey to see 2 other cyclists pulled over by police officers on motorbikes issuing tickets to them.
> 
> ...



Is this what they call a _stealth_ tax - Policemen in yellow fluorescent jackets dishing out fines or is it a _tax on the stupid_?


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## Sheffield_Tiger (26 Jul 2010)

Can we have our own variant of the Daily Mail bleating on about a "War on Cyclists"..now that the "War on Motorists" is being ended by not bothering to enforce speed limits anymore, beginning with Oxon?


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## Jezston (27 Jul 2010)

[QUOTE 1138535"]
It's a fact of life that people jump red lights, get over it. And please stop with the ''it annoys motorists and the way they drive towards cyclists.'' This is complete nonsense. [/quote]

No it isn't, it's a very real and widespread attitude problem which would have no reason to exist were it not based on real behaviour. It's the first thing motorists say against cyclists. Stop trying to justify your own bad road behaviour and the making of our lives that little more difficult by casually and innaccurately dismissing something very real as 'complete nonsense' just because that's what you want to believe.


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## Origamist (27 Jul 2010)

After this enforcement blitz is over, I'll be asking the mayor for a breakdown of the FPNs that were dished out, and to whom.


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## clarion (27 Jul 2010)

I think that would be helpful information.

I saw two motorbike cops yesterday morning - one waiting on the pavement at the lights between Tooting Bec & Balham where farkwits tend to use the pavement as a bypass lane for the lights. The other was at Stockwell booking a cyclist. Last night, I didn't see any, but I got off the CS just after Clapham because I was pigged off with the selfish gits sitting on it in their hunks of useless metal.

This morning, the same - two cops; first at Tooting Bec, the second booking a cyclist in Stockwell.

There weren't any motorised offences serious enough to point out to the static cops on either day (which they would have ignored anyway, most likely).


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## MacB (27 Jul 2010)

Maybe we just need some 'sticky' threads set up for these things, for helmets. RLJing, speed cameras, etc.


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## sunnyjim (27 Jul 2010)

MacB said:


> Maybe we just need some 'sticky' threads set up for these things, for helmets. RLJing, speed cameras, etc.




A selection of ready made posts to choose from, supporting particular points of view and rubbishing everybody else woud be handy too - save having to make them up.


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## scouserinlondon (27 Jul 2010)

The funniest part of CS7 is that the effing blue paint runs out on what I consider to be the most dangerous part of it. That's the southbound interchange from the a23 to a3. I don't RLJ, but it's a joke that the fuzz are patrolling the CS7 with increased vigour. What they give with one hand they take with the other etc.


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## martint235 (27 Jul 2010)

[QUOTE 1138542"]
Absolutely, the first thing a motorist said to me the last time I almost come a cropper was ''Yeah but no but yeah, but you RLJ.'' I think not some how.

Telepathy is not mine or yours' strong point Jeezbob however logic is - mine. And I doubt that there are motorists out there who *hate* cyclists just because they RLJ just the same as I don't *hate* BMW drivers.
[/quote]


Lee I kind of accept your point but not totally. The topic of RLJing cyclists is at the forefront of drivers' minds. For example, whenever the topic of cycling comes up at work or in a pub and people find out that I cycle you can guarantee that someone will say "I bet you just ignore red lights don't you?". They may or may not add suitable expletives to the end depending on the person but there is a definite perception among non-cyclists that the majority of cyclists do ignore red lights.

Now I'm not sure whether this perception affects the way that people operate their cars in my vicinity, I would tend to think not but it does mean that I have to defend myself in conversation and all because some people can't be a***d to obey the law. The penalty needs to be toughened and the chances of being caught increased until people do start to obey the law, this applies to all laws that are regularly broken because people believe they can get away with it.


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## peteoc (27 Jul 2010)

The question is what do you refer to as a RLJer? I myself am possibly one, at all lights where there is no box for a cyclist I edge forward of the stop line to give me that extra bit of space to clip in before the drivers try mow me down. This is by law, wrong however as a cyclist what do you lot think?


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## martint235 (27 Jul 2010)

peteoc said:


> The question is what do you refer to as a RLJer? I myself am possibly one, at all lights where there is no box for a cyclist I edge forward of the stop line to give me that extra bit of space to clip in before the drivers try mow me down. This is by law, wrong however as a cyclist what do you lot think?




Why don't you either wait in the middle of the lane in front of the first car (if you're there first) or wait in the queue like a normal road user?


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## Gandalf (27 Jul 2010)

There is one junction on my commute where I do the same. 

It is an A road crossing four lanes of dual carriageway. Unless you have an internal combustion engine or are Sir Chris Hoy, the lights have gone red again before you are safely across.

If I try to get to the front of the queue to take pole position in primary, some twonk will always scream past me at the last moment.


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## Trevrev (27 Jul 2010)

peteoc said:


> The question is what do you refer to as a RLJer? I myself am possibly one, at all lights where there is no box for a cyclist I edge forward of the stop line to give me that extra bit of space to clip in before the drivers try mow me down. This is by law, wrong however as a cyclist what do you lot think?




I always hover over the stop line.......! 
I'm waiting to get hung, drawn and quartered......LOL.


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## Jezston (27 Jul 2010)

You do love your RLJ threads don't you Trev.


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## JoysOfSight (27 Jul 2010)

I'm a proliferate red light jumper. 

I almost never enter an ASL via the little gutter death channel, preferring to ride straight into it (even if I'm first to a red light) rather than change lanes to the left lane, go through the little dotted bit, and then ride back across the ASL to the ahead lane again.

But you can't have your cake and eat it. This is breaking the law, to exactly the same degree as riding right through - the law only has one offence, for failing to stop at the first line when the light is not green.

People whining about being busted for jumping red lights amuse me. I think the idea that motorists will somehow love cyclists if only we stopped jumping red lights is stupid, but that doesn't change the simple fact that you're failing to obey a pretty basic law.

It's just like motorists who insist that in their judgement they are fine to drive X pints over the limit. For all I care they may be right, but I'd still have their licence for it.


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## CopperBrompton (27 Jul 2010)

Soltydog said:


> TBH there's no defence for RLJing, but I think the police time would be better spent at various junctions where motor vehicles jump red lights.


They do both in the City. At one set of lights popular for RLJing, I came through one morning and they'd pulled three or four cyclists, two cars, a van and _a bus_ all at the same time!


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## Arch (27 Jul 2010)

Ben Lovejoy said:


> They do both in the City. At one set of lights popular for RLJing, I came through one morning and they'd pulled three or four cyclists, two cars, a van and _a bus_ all at the same time!



Oh, I'd love to have seen that!


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## Bandini (27 Jul 2010)

l4dva said:


> This morning I got pulled over after jumping a red right.... the road was perfectly clear I was in no danger to myself or any other road users but I blatently jumped the light and got fined £30!! I was in the wrong shouldn't of jumped the lights blah blah sh*t happens.... or dose it!
> 
> The copper tells me boris spent X amount of money on these blues lanes blah blah we are here patroling the entire route for the next 6 weeks - so basically they are picking up anyone who jumps lights etc and giving them a fine. I continued my journey to see 2 other cyclists pulled over by police officers on motorbikes issuing tickets to them.
> 
> ...



I always stop at lights, mainly because it gives cyclists a bad name if you don't. No offence, but you earnt that ticket, just like the motorists who moan about speeding cameras earnt theirs.


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## CopperBrompton (27 Jul 2010)

Arch said:


> Oh, I'd love to have seen that!


Hopefully you will next time.  I'm having brackets made up for the POV1.5 on both trike and Brommie, so then I'll be able to video my rides as a matter of routine.


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## CopperBrompton (27 Jul 2010)

I used to be a 'safe RLJer'. That is, most of the time I didn't RLJ, and would almost always come to a halt first, but would then sometimes proceed through a red. For example, at a pedestrian crossing, I'd stop to let peds cross, then set off as soon as the crossing was clear.

The argument that changed my attitude (and thus my behaviour) was someone, on here I think, arguing that if we want to be treated as traffic, we have to be seen to be behaving as traffic - and that means waiting at red lights even if it would be 100% safe to proceed.


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## hackbike 666 (27 Jul 2010)

Ben Lovejoy said:


> I used to be a 'safe RLJer'. That is, most of the time I didn't RLJ, and would almost always come to a halt first, but would then sometimes proceed through a red. For example, at a pedestrian crossing, I'd stop to let peds cross, then set off as soon as the crossing was clear.
> 
> The argument that changed my attitude (and thus my behaviour) was someone, on here I think, arguing that if we want to be treated as traffic, we have to be seen to be behaving as traffic - and that means waiting at red lights even if it would be 100% safe to proceed.



That may be bo55ox but that's exactly how I see it...so I whip out my mobile phone at the first opportunity.(Not really)


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## Peter10 (28 Jul 2010)

In the job I do, I have seen cyclists killed on the roads because of them jumping lights. You take your life into your hands when you do it. I would much prefer a £30 fine and a strong word in my ear, which may make me think about doing it again than being hit by a car or truck. One particular person I have seen hit said the road was totally clear, but he didn't see the motorbike doing 40mph coming from the left. Both were lucky.


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## Shut Up Legs (28 Jul 2010)

l4dva said:


> Lets face it we all jump lights - I do it when I know its safe I take the risk and jump them to save time.... just like every other cyclist - everyone knows this.


So _*why *_do you run red lights?  All it saves you is a fraction of 1 minute. If you're in such a tearing hurry to get to your destination, perhaps you should either leave earlier or re-evaluate your time-management priorities?

I'm with some of the others on this thread: you've only yourself to blame, plus you're causing other cyclists to bear the brunt of aggression from those motorists too shortsighted to see that all cyclists _aren't_ the same.


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## summerdays (28 Jul 2010)

JoysOfSight said:


> I'm a proliferate red light jumper.
> 
> I almost never enter an ASL via the little gutter death channel, preferring to ride straight into it (even if I'm first to a red light) rather than change lanes to the left lane, go through the little dotted bit, and then ride back across the ASL to the ahead lane again.
> 
> But you can't have your cake and eat it. This is breaking the law, to exactly the same degree as riding right through - the law only has one offence, for failing to stop at the first line when the light is not green.




I admit that I enter the ASL from the right mostly as well - but sometimes they don't have a feeder lane at all - I wish they would change the design or rules for them to make it legal.


Does having an ASL and seeing lots of bikes stopped in it help to change drivers perceptions of cyclists (which is what I hope) or does it provide a good point to RLJ from in the middle of a red (rather than a very late amber)?


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## Jezston (28 Jul 2010)

Most of the ASLs I stop in have no feeder lane. ASLs could really do with legal clarification.


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## CopperBrompton (28 Jul 2010)

No legal clarification is required: it is already perfectly legal for cyclists to cross the first stop line:

_Highway Code Rule 178:

Advanced stop lines. Some signal-controlled junctions have advanced stop lines to allow cycles to be positioned ahead of other traffic. *Motorists*, including motorcyclists, *MUST* stop at the first white line

_(My emphasis)

The requirement to stop at the first stop line is specific to motor vehicles, it does not apply to cyclists.


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## 2Loose (28 Jul 2010)

Ben Lovejoy said:


> No legal clarification is required: it is already perfectly legal for cyclists to cross the first stop line:
> 
> _Highway Code Rule 178:
> 
> ...




But surely this only applies when there is a *second* stop line too, as in ASL?


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## CopperBrompton (28 Jul 2010)

2Loose said:


> But surely this only applies when there is a *second* stop line too, as in ASL?


Of course, which is what the rule says.

Many cyclists seem to think they cannot cross the first stop line at ASL junctions, and thus must enter from the feeder-lane on the left. This is not the case.


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## benb (28 Jul 2010)

Ben Lovejoy said:


> No legal clarification is required: it is already perfectly legal for cyclists to cross the first stop line:
> 
> _Highway Code Rule 178:
> 
> ...



True as far as it goes, but it is illegal for cyclists to filter into the ASL (i.e. passing traffic) by any means other than the feeder lane on the left. If there is an ASL without a feeder, then it's illegal for a cyclist to enter if it would mean filtering at all. In other words, you can filter up to the first stop line, but can only then enter the ASL by means of the filter lane. If the lane is completely clear, then you can enter it and stop at the second stop line.

ASLs are a good idea, but as with most cycling infrastructure in the UK, are muddled and frequently badly thought out.


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## crumpetman (28 Jul 2010)

benb said:


> True as far as it goes, but it is illegal for cyclists to filter into the ASL (i.e. passing traffic) by any means other than the feeder lane on the left. If there is an ASL without a feeder, then it's illegal for a cyclist to enter if it would mean filtering at all. In other words, you can filter up to the first stop line, but can only then enter the ASL by means of the filter lane. If the lane is completely clear, then you can enter it and stop at the second stop line.
> 
> ASLs are a good idea, but as with most cycling infrastructure in the UK, are muddled and frequently badly thought out.



That sounds crazy! I use a couple of ASLs where there is no filter lane but when there is a lot of traffic I just filter to the front and wait in the ASL. It just doesn't make sense to me. If there was no ASL then I could still filter all the way to the front so what difference does it make to go into the ASL from say the middle of two lands of traffic facing the same direction?


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## 400bhp (28 Jul 2010)

benb said:


> True as far as it goes, but it is illegal for cyclists to filter into the ASL (i.e. passing traffic) by any means other than the feeder lane on the left. If there is an ASL without a feeder, then it's illegal for a cyclist to enter if it would mean filtering at all. In other words, you can filter up to the first stop line, but can only then enter the ASL by means of the filter lane. If the lane is completely clear, then you can enter it and stop at the second stop line.



Can you show me where this information comes from?


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## CopperBrompton (28 Jul 2010)

benb said:


> True as far as it goes, but it is illegal for cyclists to filter into the ASL (i.e. passing traffic) by any means other than the feeder lane on the left.


You're mistaken: read the Highway Code rule again. 

All traffic must stop at the second stop line. Only motorised traffic must stop at the first one.


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## benb (28 Jul 2010)

crumpetman said:


> That sounds crazy! I use a couple of ASLs where there is no filter lane but when there is a lot of traffic I just filter to the front and wait in the ASL. It just doesn't make sense to me. If there was no ASL then I could still filter all the way to the front so what difference does it make to go into the ASL from say the middle of two lands of traffic facing the same direction?



You're right, it is mental.



400bhp said:


> Can you show me where this information comes from?



I'll try and dig out where I read it, can't remember right now.



Ben Lovejoy said:


> You're mistaken: read the Highway Code rule again.
> 
> All traffic must stop at the second stop line. Only motorised traffic must stop at the first one.



AFAIK, that only applies where you're approaching an ASL with a red signal and there is no traffic in front of you. If you have to filter, then you MUST use the filter lane on the left to enter the ASL. If there is no filter lane then you cannot enter the ASL.

I'll try and find the actual source for what I think I know!!


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## crumpetman (28 Jul 2010)

Found this on http://bicycle-train...ne_for_cyclists



> *Entrance by Bikes into the Cycle Reservoir*
> This may sound strange, but in the main bikes are governed by the same rules as cars when it comes to cycle reservoirs. Cyclists can only technically enter the reservoir if there is a feeder bike lane, with a dotted line, which filters into the reservoir. If there isn't a feeder lane, and just a solid stop line that the cars are stopped at, as a cyclist you are supposed to stop there to.
> 
> Of course, common sense dictates that this is a frankly ridiculous situation, as it negates any purpose assigned to the advanced stop line and cycle reservoir. General usage, and logic, therefore means that it's unlikely anyone will ever be fined or given a talking to for riding into a cycle reservoir without a feeder lane.


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## CopperBrompton (28 Jul 2010)

benb said:


> AFAIK, that only applies where you're approaching an ASL with a red signal and there is no traffic in front of you. If you have to filter, then you MUST use the filter lane on the left to enter the ASL.


There is no such concept in law as 'filtering', it is simply 'overtaking'.

Technically, cyclists break many of the Highway Code rules on overtaking when they filter (you can argue, for example, that filtering up to a traffic light is overtaking close to a junction), but there is nothing in law or the HC that specifies how cyclists are to enter an ASL box.


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## BentMikey (28 Jul 2010)

benb said:


> AFAIK, that only applies where you're approaching an ASL with a red signal and there is no traffic in front of you. If you have to filter, then you MUST use the filter lane on the left to enter the ASL. If there is no filter lane then you cannot enter the ASL.
> 
> I'll try and find the actual source for what I think I know!!



Benb is right, roughly. Sometimes it pays not to be so self-assured but wrong.


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## CopperBrompton (28 Jul 2010)

crumpetman said:


> Found this on http://bicycle-train...ne_for_cyclists
> 
> [/font][/font]


Which is the common myth I refer to. In law, the first stop line _does not exist for cyclists._ It exists only for motorised traffic.


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## benb (28 Jul 2010)

http://www.cityoflondon.police.uk/CityPolice/Advice/TrafficTravel/ontheroad.htm#stoplines



> Cyclists are required to enter this Advanced Stop Box area by the prescribed cycle lane



In other words, if the light is red, and either there is no filter lane, or that lane is blocked, you are committing an offence if you cross the first stop line. You'll notice that where there is a filter lane the first stop line doesn't go all the way to the left, so by using the lane you don't actually cross the first stop line.


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## crumpetman (28 Jul 2010)

Ben Lovejoy said:


> Which is the common myth I refer to. In law, the first stop line _does not exist for cyclists._ It exists only for motorised traffic.



Yep, I can't find anything else to say that cyclists cannot enter the ASL without using a feeder lane. On my route I do not usually make use of the feeder lane anyway as it is not particularly safe.


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## hackbike 666 (28 Jul 2010)

victor said:


> So _*why *_do you run red lights?  All it saves you is a fraction of 1 minute. If you're in such a tearing hurry to get to your destination, perhaps you should either leave earlier or re-evaluate your time-management priorities?
> 
> I'm with some of the others on this thread: you've only yourself to blame, plus you're causing other cyclists to bear the brunt of aggression from those motorists too shortsighted to see that all cyclists _aren't_ the same.



That's the problem...you jump a red and cause an accident then it's your fault and should get the book thrown at you.....I doubt in todays blameless society that the RLJer would admit being at fault (or take any blame) as they are almost as stupid as mobile phone wielding motorists.

At least some of the RLJing I have seen has been mind boggingly stupid...and why? To save a few seconds....Now what does that remind me of?

Yes of course,the motorist doing the close overtake to race up to the next set of lights....Reminds me I have some vids to check over.


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## crumpetman (28 Jul 2010)

benb said:


> http://www.cityoflon...d.htm#stoplines
> 
> 
> 
> In other words, if the light is red, and either there is no filter lane, or that lane is blocked, you are committing an offence if you cross the first stop line. You'll notice that where there is a filter lane the first stop line doesn't go all the way to the left, so by using the lane you don't actually cross the first stop line.



That's not what is says though. The text on that site is clearly aimed at motorists, not cyclists. It does not state what a cyclist can or should do presented with an ASL with no feeder lane.


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## benb (28 Jul 2010)

Ben Lovejoy said:


> Which is the common myth I refer to. In law, the first stop line _does not exist for cyclists._ It exists only for motorised traffic.



I think you're wrong. I can't find the specific legislation though.


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## 400bhp (28 Jul 2010)

benb said:


> http://www.cityoflon...d.htm#stoplines
> 
> 
> 
> In other words, if the light is red, and either there is no filter lane, or that lane is blocked, you are committing an offence if you cross the first stop line. You'll notice that where there is a filter lane the first stop line doesn't go all the way to the left, so by using the lane you don't actually cross the first stop line.



I believe they hav e made this up. There doesn't appear to be any reference to this in the legislation.


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## benb (28 Jul 2010)

http://www.opsi.gov....20023113.htm#43


> <a name="43">Where the road marking shown in diagram 1001.2 has been placed in conjunction with light signals, "stop line" in relation to those light signals means -
> 
> 
> (a) the first stop line, in the case of a vehicle (other than a pedal cycle proceeding in the cycle lane) which has not proceeded beyond that line; or
> ...


So, the stop line is defined as the first stop line for all vehicles, or the second stop line for bicycles *proceeding in the cycle lane*. So if there is no cycle lane, or if you are not in the cycle lane for any reason, the first stop line is *the* stop line.


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## Origamist (28 Jul 2010)

ASL enforcement and access to the reservoir is confusing. The HC is pretty clear on the subject (different lines for different classes of vehicles). However, there is not a specific ASL encroachment offence, it comes under the general offence of contravening an automatic traffic signal. 

In London, there has been an ongoing debate about cyclists entering the ASL reservoir if they do not use a filter lane or “gate” (a stubbie cycle lane), or what to do if neither is present. 

This Bill clarifies/muddies the water further in London: *London Local Authorities and Transport for London (No. 2) Bill *

_



Clause 28 deals with two general issues relating to advanced stopping areas for cyclists.

The first is that technically it is an offence for a cyclist to enter the stopping area if there

is no cycle lane marked on the highway that feeds into the stopping area. The clause

would have the effect of clarifying that where there is an advanced stopping area but

no feeder lane, then no offence is committed by cyclists who enter the stopping area at

a red light signal.



The second issue dealt with by Clause 28 is related. It provides that in cases where there

is a feeder lane, a cyclist would not commit an offence if he had to enter the stopping

area by crossing the first stop line, if the feeder lane is obstructed.

Click to expand...

_http://www.publicati...2_11_07/017.pdf


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## crumpetman (28 Jul 2010)

Ok, so we are back to it being a technicality and not something that you would get pulled over/fined for. IT IS ridiculous though. I still cannot believe it is the case, there must be some legislation that is not so vague, something that specifically mentions bicycles and ASLs with no feeder lane.


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## CopperBrompton (28 Jul 2010)

benb said:


> http://www.opsi.gov....20023113.htm#43


I stand corrected!

Personally, I am happy to rely on the HC rule, and it also for me passes the test of being seen to act properly if we enter the box in any fashion and then stop at the second line.


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## CopperBrompton (28 Jul 2010)

As an aside, on a practical note, if there are only two or three cars waiting at the lights, I will typically slot in behind them rather than go to the front of the lights. The approach some cyclists seem to have that they _must_ get to the front at traffic lights even when there's no real benefit reminds me of those drivers who _must_ overtake a cyclist even if they have to stop three seconds later.


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## benb (28 Jul 2010)

The whole thing is madness though. The need to change the legislation, so that bicycles can enter an ASL by whichever route they like.

I also won't bother if there's only a few cars ahead, it just doesn't save that much time.


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## Dan B (28 Jul 2010)

Ben Lovejoy said:


> I stand corrected!
> 
> Personally, I am happy to rely on the HC rule, and it also for me passes the test of being seen to act properly if we enter the box in any fashion and then stop at the second line.



So in fact it's not actually breaking the law that bothers you, it's doing things that upset _people who don't even know the law_?

This morning a taxi driver told me that riding two abreast was illegal. Should I stop doing this just because he's an ignorant fool?


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## CopperBrompton (28 Jul 2010)

coruskate said:


> So in fact it's not actually breaking the law that bothers you


Breaking a law _per se_ doesn't bother me at all. I eat mince pies on xmas day with a clear conscience.


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## Dan B (28 Jul 2010)

Ben Lovejoy said:


> Breaking a law _per se_ doesn't bother me at all. I eat mince pies on xmas day with a clear conscience.



What a welcome breath of fresh air. (No, I am not being sarcastic)


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## Sheffield_Tiger (28 Jul 2010)

In my opinion the whole ASL thing is academic whilst configurations like this one exist.

Bad road markings are a whole different kettle of fish to passing throuh a FINAL stop line at red, so no hypocrisy on my part

Yes, I jumped the red light on the way to Pets at Home, if we are being technical. However if stopped I would certainly refuse to pay any spot fine and be willing to contest the issue in a court of law (since I stopped within the ASL to go straight ahead which has no legal point of entry). And any car drivers who don't like my "illegal behaviour" can sod of back to pepipoo.com and go back to discussing loopholes to get out of driving and parking offences through a mm of spacing on a signpost.

I use the road rather than the cycle path because {a} I want to go faster than 18mph and {b} I want to cross ONE set of traffic lights and not three


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