# Abusive motorists



## TallMan (30 Mar 2021)

Just recived a torrent of abuse for following the HC from 3 different motorists and a one guy who cut across me on busy roundabout and didnt even had the decency to look once to his right


----------



## cougie uk (30 Mar 2021)

Three in one go ? That's unusual. What did you do ?


----------



## TallMan (30 Mar 2021)

that was over a 2 hour ride , but got so fed up with it felt like it was neverending , and all i did was basiclley follow the highway code.its a shame your average car driver doesnt.


----------



## Moodyman (30 Mar 2021)

Your post and the fact you're a new joiner suggests you might have recently taken up road cycling. Welcome to two wheel propulsion.

Whilst you're perfectly entitled to be on the road, many motorists don't see it that way. Look up 'cycling roadcraft' and you'll see hints and tips to getting comfortable on the road. A more assertive and confident riding technique goes a long way.


----------



## gbb (30 Mar 2021)

Dont let it (or try to anyway) spoil your day, it will occasionally happen, just a fact of life I'm afraid.
Be alert, read the road, read drivers (and peds...and occasionally other cyclists) and you begin to manage your surroundings. You cant win sometimes though, sometimes it just happens, shrug your shoulders and ride on, the good days far far outweigh the bad ones IME.


----------



## DCLane (30 Mar 2021)

@TallMan

It happens. Some days I have lots of those and then nothing for weeks. Commuting into/out of a city is probably the cause. Don't go too close to the kerb, make your intentions known and keep vigilant.

I'm also guessing it's happening more currently because the roads have been quiet and many drivers haven't driven much in weeks, if not months.


----------



## chris-suffolk (30 Mar 2021)

It's still the same vehicle types that I nearly always have issues with though - Audi, BMW or 4x4 - 95%+ of the time.


----------



## Drago (30 Mar 2021)

cougie uk said:


> Three in one go ? That's unusual. What did you do ?


He was riding nude while eating a dead hobos arm and whistling the Anthem of Europe.


----------



## Rocky (30 Mar 2021)

@TallMan ..... sorry you got all that abuse. It can really grind you down after a day at work. Hopefully, as @DCLane says, you'll now go weeks before you get any more. There seems to be a lot of aggression about at the moment. I've certainly seen it on the roads round here.

Don't let it put you off......remember cycling is the best sport in the whole wide world.


----------



## TallMan (30 Mar 2021)

How did you guess cougie .. also i was rideing about 5 feet from the kerb which seemed to upset evrybody. these guys need to read the highway code before they start with abuse


----------



## flake99please (30 Mar 2021)

Just think of this song.


View: https://youtu.be/HNBCVM4KbUM


Life really is too short to get worked up by the idiots out there on the roads.


----------



## HMS_Dave (30 Mar 2021)

Remember, you're not suppose to exist on the road. You don't pay road tax, Insurance and neither do you have an MOT. How very dare you! Move aside peasant and get a job!


----------



## gavgav (30 Mar 2021)

TallMan said:


> Just recived a torrent of abuse for following the HC from 3 different motorists and a one guy who cut across me on busy roundabout and didnt even had the decency to look once to his right


Unfortunately the sun seems to bring the morons out, there were plenty on my ride this evening as well.


----------



## Rusty Nails (30 Mar 2021)

I got abuse from a car driver yesterday because I stopped at lights that had changed to red at least 15 metres before I got to them.

I was also driving a car, but nobber motorists don't worry too much about who they abuse. Cyclists, pedestrians, car drivers, lorries, caravans; they're all fair game.


----------



## winjim (30 Mar 2021)

My wife informs me that 'angry bald man in a convertible*' has once again been spotted back in his natural habitat. A sure sign of spring and it'll certainly brighten things up as we queue in turn for the single lane entrance** to our road.


*I mean a specific ABMiaC, although I'm sure they exist as a genre.
**It's actually a fairly broad double lane but you know, parked cars and shoot.


----------



## boydj (30 Mar 2021)

Assume drivers have either not seen you, seen you and not registered your presence, or are actively anti-cyclist and will ignore your presence. Most drivers are ok, but a minority will fit one or the other of these groups.

You need to ride assertively, but defensively, when riding in traffic to control the space around you. Big hand signals, taking the lane when required and reading the traffic are all skills you'll have to develop. Roundabouts are the most problematic area for cyclists. Read up on Bikeability and vehicular cycling for some formal guidance. You'll soon develop a sixth sense for when a situation is developing.

Above all, enjoy your cycling - it can become addictive.


----------



## Adjunct Satyr (30 Mar 2021)

That’s been the biggest learning curve... taking command to control the space (ie right turns at a roundabout).


----------



## steveindenmark (31 Mar 2021)

I never get this. I feel as though I am missing out on some of cycling best bits


----------



## si_c (31 Mar 2021)

I've had far fewer problems with motorists since I started to behave more like a car, I ride fairly centrally most of the time, which means I have space to move left if I need to and still allows drivers to pass on the outside. I can go weeks without any problems - and I ride most days - but sometimes you just have a particularly bad ride where everyone seems completely oblivious to your presence.


----------



## Arjimlad (31 Mar 2021)

I did 18 miles yesterday on a mix of mainly country roads, there were loads of cyclists out enjoying the sunshine, and I had nothing to report to the police the whole ride. It was lovely ! Maybe it could've been different riding in town - luck of the draw whether you cross paths with a knobber, as always. Hope you can enjoy your rides regardless.


----------



## snorri (31 Mar 2021)

*



TallMan said:



Just recived a torrent of abuse for following the HC from 3 different motorists and a one guy

Click to expand...




TallMan said:



that was over a 2 hour ride ,

Click to expand...

I'm fascinated, you've had more abuse in two hours than I have had in 30 years. How was this abuse delivered?
I'm not denying I may have annoyed some drivers in that period but due to the speed they were travelling at they they only responded with a 'beep' on the horn which I would not describe as a torrent of abuse. *


----------



## Milkfloat (31 Mar 2021)

I very rarely have a problem at all and when I do it due to the driver feeling that I am either slowing them down my a second or two or that I am getting an advantage by overtaking them in a queue of traffic. Sunday morning was different, it was just for existing at all. I was waiting to join a roundabout, around the roundabout came a knackered Peugeot with the driver simultaneously shouting something about an anchor and shaking his wrist. He then proceeded to get stuck in a queue of traffic exactly the way I was going. 

It is not often you get a chance to have a reasoned debate over the merits of cycling and a chance to change someone's mind and this was not one of those times, but I tried. We had a fairly fruitless discussion over why cyclists exist at all, including his opinion that cycling is dangerous because he is driving a 2 ton car and I am just on a bicycle. We also had a short debate over his opinion that I was poor because I was cycling, that ended fairly quickly when I told him my bike was worth about twice as much as his car and is considerably prettier. Unfortunately we did not have time to talk about the road tax he pays, how cyclists block the road and the merits of cycle lanes but at least he was able to teach his young boy in his child seat some new words that would make a sailor blush. Maybe in a future encounter we can cover the missing topics in the game of peanut driver bingo.


----------



## Faratid (31 Mar 2021)

HMS_Dave said:


> Remember, you're not suppose to exist on the road. You don't pay road tax, Insurance and neither do you have an MOT. How very dare you! Move aside peasant and get a job!



....and if you do get into any discussion about 'road tax', feel free to point out that there is _no such thing as road tax. _All roads, except motorways and some trunk roads, are funded by council tax. Vehicle tax does not fund the roads specifically, and does not confer a divine right for motorists to use the roads exclusively. The roads are there for all of us to use.


----------



## GuyBoden (31 Mar 2021)

winjim said:


> My wife informs me that 'angry bald man in a convertible*' has once again been spotted back in his natural habitat. A sure sign of spring and it'll certainly brighten things up as we queue in turn for the single lane entrance** to our road.
> 
> 
> *I mean a specific ABMiaC, although I'm sure they exist as a genre.
> **It's actually a fairly broad double lane but you know, parked cars and shoot.


Unfortunately, I had the displeasure of meeting 'angry bald man in a convertible*' yesterday, I was stopped at the traffic lights, the ABMiaC was in a BMW that squeezed through a small gap to be at the front of the queue, about an inch from my bike, I asked him did he think it was a good idea to squeeze past and he called me a W**ker. He then drove on and was extremely close to another cyclist, who understandably shouted abuse at him. Luckily, it's only a small minority of drivers who behave badly in my experience, but maybe a sunny day must make them jealous, when they are stuck in their metal boxes and we're out on our bikes enjoying the sun.


----------



## Profpointy (31 Mar 2021)

Faratid said:


> ....and if you do get into any discussion about 'road tax', feel free to point out that there is _no such thing as road tax. _All roads, except motorways and some trunk roads, are funded by council tax. Vehicle tax does not fund the roads specifically, and does not confer a divine right for motorists to use the roads exclusively. The roads are there for all of us to use.



Yebbut it's a pretty specious argument that the tax paid on motoroised road vehicles is not road tax.

No such thing as beer tax, it's been alcohol excise duty since 1066


----------



## Johnno260 (31 Mar 2021)

Time of day can be a factor, it's why I go out early before rush hour and it's bliss.

There will always be some idiots, but those people are idiots regardless of what you're using.

Best one I had recently was an abused looking Fiesta ST driven by a kid, he did a close pass and pulled in and brake tested the cyclist in front of me, that guy then gave him a universal greeting hand signal, the other cyclist turned off, I then saw the same ST stopped on the side of the road with a turning behind him, so spidey sense was tingling, he shouted wtf did you say to me, I had stopped behind him and said it was the other guy sorry, he said come here and say that as my reverse doesn't work, so I turned up the side road, then watched him drop the car in a ditch trying to do a U turn! haha priceless


----------



## mustang1 (31 Mar 2021)

Attack them before they attack you: just ride around with a finger stuck up at various drivers at random.


----------



## swee'pea99 (31 Mar 2021)

Rusty Nails said:


> I got abuse from a car driver yesterday because I stopped at lights that had changed to red at least 15 metres before I got to them.
> 
> I was also driving a car, but nobber motorists don't worry too much about who they abuse. Cyclists, pedestrians, car drivers, lorries, caravans; they're all fair game.


I stopped to let people cross at a zebra crossing, got beeped from behind. Ignored it, thinking someone had just stumbled - it happens. But no - got another, longer beep from behind. I remonstrated with him - "There are people on the zebra crossing!", but he wasn't impressed. He was in a hurry, and I was holding him up. Beeeeeeep!


----------



## ren531 (31 Mar 2021)

I think its a symptom of an overloaded road network and a frenzied live style most people live, result is bearly contained anger, us cyclist in the meantime are blissfully unaware what troubles them.


----------



## CanucksTraveller (31 Mar 2021)

swee'pea99 said:


> I stopped to let people cross at a zebra crossing, got beeped from behind. Ignored it, thinking someone had just stumbled - it happens. But no - got another, longer beep from behind. I remonstrated with him - "There are people on the zebra crossing!", but he wasn't impressed. He was in a hurry, and I was holding him up. Beeeeeeep!


Incredible isn't it! I got a sarcastic shout from a motorist while _walking across a zebra crossing _once, as I got just over halfway across he shouted "Yeah you're welcome!" I'm guessing my crime was not saying thank you to him for stopping. I asked if he should need to be thanked for performing a mandatory stop. He called me a rude name. Self-entitled cook. 

Back to cyclist abuse... My own cycling's actually been really pleasant and incident free lately, just about everyone seems to be giving a wide berth (car width at least). I have to go back to last summer to recall my last truly close pass, which escalated quite badly when I had the temerity to raise a palm to the sky (in a questioning "EH? Really mate?") kind of gesture... clearly a questioning gesture is the world's most offensive thing ever, and definitely worth getting into a fight over where you use your vehicle as a weapon. The silly old fart.


----------



## Arjimlad (31 Mar 2021)

It can be quite satisfying running cameras sometimes.

Knowing you can upload footage to the rozzers of any dangerous drivers (who will receive a warning, fixed penalty or prosecution to encourage them to turn their sad little lives around) can be satisfying .. it can also help one to remain unfailingly polite if the opportunity to engage in conversation arises.


----------



## matticus (31 Mar 2021)

Milkfloat said:


> It is not often you get a chance to have a reasoned debate over the merits of cycling and a chance to change someone's mind and this was not one of those times


----------



## contadino (31 Mar 2021)

I've only been back on my bike for the last couple of months, but have noticed that drivers are more aggressive and abusive than a year ago. However, I've been exploring routes comprising of little back lanes, bridleways, byways and fire tracks which means I spend less time near cars and more time enjoying the scenery.

It does mean I get to meet more (mostly friendly) dog walkers but have now experienced their ire too. Fortunately, I'd stopped for a drink right next to one of those blue signs with a picture of a pedestrian, a bike and a horse, so could retort to the "it's called a footpath for a reason. Clear off." with a "get some glasses, you prick".


----------



## All uphill (31 Mar 2021)

ren531 said:


> I think its a symptom of an overloaded road network and a frenzied live style most people live, result is bearly contained anger, us cyclist in the meantime are blissfully unaware what troubles them.


I agree, it's no excuse but the shockingly poor cycling and walking infrastructure in most of our towns leads inevitably to conflict. I hope that increasing numbers of cyclists in my local town gradually help people see us as normal, and behave accordingly. 

I experience fewer issues on the country lanes here in the south west.


----------



## Drago (31 Mar 2021)

Profpointy said:


> Yebbut it's a pretty specious argument that the tax paid on motoroised road vehicles is not road tax.
> 
> No such thing as beer tax, it's been alcohol excise duty since 1066


Its a pollution tax, not a road tax. 

Cars with no tailpipe pollutants don't pay it any more than non pollutung bicycles do, yet that doesn't stop motorists using them upon the Queen's highway.


----------



## Profpointy (31 Mar 2021)

Drago said:


> Its a pollution tax, not a road tax.
> 
> Cars with no tailpipe pollutants don't pay it any more than non pollutung bicycles do, yet that doesn't stop motorists using them upon the Queen's highway.



It isn't really though, since you don't have to pay "pollution tax" for burning stuff to heat your house, nor for using "red diesel" for various off-road purposes. So it's only payable for using the road - qefd


----------



## rockyroller (31 Mar 2021)

fwiw - I always get wary of auto traffic during changes of seasons. driver behavior escalates dangerously. my favorite time f year to ride the roads is July, during vacation season, when there is less commuter traffic. wishing you safe travels ...


----------



## Eric Olthwaite (31 Mar 2021)

GuyBoden said:


> Unfortunately, I had the displeasure of meeting 'angry bald man in a convertible*' yesterday, I was stopped at the traffic lights, the ABMiaC was in a BMW that squeezed through a small gap to be at the front of the queue, about an inch from my bike, I asked him did he think it was a good idea to squeeze past and he called me a W**ker.



But you've got to admire the bravery of a man who sits stationary in a queue of traffic in a convertible and calls the cyclist next to him a w****r. I mean, what could possibly go wrong?


----------



## GuyBoden (1 Apr 2021)

Eric Olthwaite said:


> But you've got to admire the bravery of a man who sits stationary in a queue of traffic in a convertible and calls the cyclist next to him a w****r. I mean, what could possibly go wrong?


He was stupid, like his driving, not brave, if I was an aggressive person there could have been a serious incident. 


Road Rage incident.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-56586907

"A 35-year-old man could lose his sight after he was seriously injured in a road rage attack, police have said.
A fight between two male drivers broke out after a sports utility vehicle (SUV) pulled out in front of a van on a slip road in Devon."


----------



## Solocle (1 Apr 2021)

Eric Olthwaite said:


> But you've got to admire the bravery of a man who sits stationary in a queue of traffic in a convertible and calls the cyclist next to him a w****r. I mean, what could possibly go wrong?


The advantage of ABMiAC when driving is, if they decide to tailgate you, the weather can change at a squidge of the windscreen washers


----------



## Lozz360 (1 Apr 2021)

I'm not sure whether it is just an Oxfordshire thing or it happens in other parts of the country. When the weather is warm and sunny, and cars are often being driven with the windows down, occasionally one will overtake and a male passenger will scream loudly as they pass. It also happens with the driver screaming as car passes in the opposite direction. I have had two unrelated incidents of this on the same 20-mile ride. I can only think that the point of this is to startle the cyclist so they might lose control and fall off (What a laugh that would be?). Fortunately, I am not easily startled and and can do nothing more than just ignore it. It's not exactly a torrent of abuse but just seems weird.


----------



## winjim (1 Apr 2021)

I once got hollered at to 'get a car' by some scrub hanging out the passenger side of his best friend's ride.


----------



## HMS_Dave (1 Apr 2021)

winjim said:


> I once got hollered at to 'get a car' by some scrub hanging out the passenger side of his best friend's ride.


That is a fan favourite. I've not had much crap my way but I have had been told to "get a job" and "can't you afford a car!?"
On both occasions I was humoured...


----------



## Johnno260 (1 Apr 2021)

Lozz360 said:


> I'm not sure whether it is just an Oxfordshire thing or it happens in other parts of the country. When the weather is warm and sunny, and cars are often being driven with the windows down, occasionally one will overtake and a male passenger will scream loudly as they pass. It also happens with the driver screaming as car passes in the opposite direction. I have had two unrelated incidents of this on the same 20-mile ride. I can only think that the point of this is to startle the cyclist so they might lose control and fall off (What a laugh that would be?). Fortunately, I am not easily startled and and can do nothing more than just ignore it. It's not exactly a torrent of abuse but just seems weird.



Not happened to me but I have witnessed it happening to cyclist while out on a walk a few times.

I have had a passenger in a white transit lean out and try and push me, I turned left as he went to shove he had no seat belt on, I stopped in a drive and the old boy cutting his hedge row yelled at them.


----------



## confusedcyclist (1 Apr 2021)

So long as the joy of riding outweighs the irksome behaviour of chimp-brained motorists, keep pedalling.

A stoic-like attitude always helps. God knows it's not the idiots that make it pleasurable. I've been known to get very angry, but experience tells me that dwelling on it just makes me feel bad, and nothing good can come of it. That said, there's nothing wrong with expressing frustration, just choose your moments wisely. Our transport system needs a rethink, but getting angry and losing it on the side of the road will get you nowhere but in bother with the law or someone with the means and motivation to do you harm.


----------



## CanucksTraveller (1 Apr 2021)

Not an abusive motorist (or at least I don't believe they were), but I definitely had a slightly weird pass last week:
I was on a quiet country road (national speed limit), pootling along (not even in primary), no traffic about at all, other than the car coming up behind me doing maybe 40mph. Then from a couple of hundred yards behind me, he or she leaned on the horn for what, 6-8 seconds as they came up behind until they were well past. The pass was generous, they went entirely over into the other lane. I have no idea what that was about. Giving me warning of approach? No idea. Sometimes you want to politely enquire what they're thinking... just to satisfy that itch and understand what the thought process was. It was mildly startling, that's for sure.


----------



## Toshiba Boy (4 Apr 2021)

Lozz360 said:


> I'm not sure whether it is just an Oxfordshire thing or it happens in other parts of the country. When the weather is warm and sunny, and cars are often being driven with the windows down, occasionally one will overtake and a male passenger will scream loudly as they pass. It also happens with the driver screaming as car passes in the opposite direction. I have had two unrelated incidents of this on the same 20-mile ride. I can only think that the point of this is to startle the cyclist so they might lose control and fall off (What a laugh that would be?). Fortunately, I am not easily startled and and can do nothing more than just ignore it. It's not exactly a torrent of abuse but just seems weird.



Generally fairly good down here in sleepy West Somerset, but I did have the above happen to me when riding down a B-road into a small town a couple of years ago. Window down, teenager in the front passenger seat leaned out and screamed something totally unintelligible at me as they zoomed by far too closely. Their mistake, as traffic backed up at small roundabout as they entered the town, I drew up alongside, leaned slightly in, and, totally ignorining the tw*t in the passenger seat said to the now slightly worried looking teenage driver, "'Ere mate, I think your boyfriend fancies me in all me lycra" and then blew them all a kiss, much to the amusement of the two further teenagers in the back seat. 

N.B. I had already scoped my left turn exit with a potential bike/pedestrian only through section 20 yards away if it had been required (which it wasn't).


----------



## Faratid (5 Apr 2021)

Profpointy said:


> Yebbut it's a pretty specious argument that the tax paid on motoroised road vehicles is not road tax.
> 
> No such thing as beer tax, it's been alcohol excise duty since 1066


No it isn't a specious argument. There is no such thing as road tax, and the roads are not paid for from vehicle tax.


----------



## Profpointy (5 Apr 2021)

Faratid said:


> No it isn't a specious argument. There is no such thing as road tax, and the roads are not paid for from vehicle tax.



alcohol tax doesn't fund government alcohol either.

Apart from being a specious argument it isn't going to convince anyone but instead convince them even more that cyclists are twats


----------



## Drago (5 Apr 2021)

ren531 said:


> I think its a symptom of an overloaded road network and a frenzied live style most people live, result is bearly contained anger, us cyclist in the meantime are blissfully unaware what troubles them.


It's a generous thought, but I don't buy into it. The very motorists who kick off are the ones who are contributing to the road network being so overloaded. They are the problem.

If they can't handle the stress and emotional pressure of navigating the overcrowded highways, overcrowding of which they are a part, then they're not fit to be in charge of upwards of a ton of kinetic weapon.


----------



## al78 (7 Apr 2021)

Faratid said:


> No it isn't a specious argument. There is no such thing as road tax, and the roads are not paid for from vehicle tax.



I agree, but perception trumps logic where humans are concerned, and people only believe or accept what they want too. That is why stupid, careless and dangerous decisions and actions are taken regularly. What we need is a justice field surrounding Earth which ensures consequences only happen to the perpetrators.


----------



## al78 (7 Apr 2021)

Drago said:


> It's a generous thought, but I don't buy into it. The very motorists who kick off are the ones who are contributing to the road network being so overloaded. They are the problem.



In my locality, it is not just the number of motorists, it is the Horsham unwritten law which states that roadworks which necessitate temporary traffic lights must take a minimum of a month, even when they have been scheduled for two or three weeks. The length of time the roadworks take should be inversely proportional to the magnitude of inconvenience to the road users (cyclists included). The green phase should be a maximum of 12 seconds, especially if the temporary traffic lights are only a hundred meters away from a primary traffic light controlled junction.


----------



## snorri (7 Apr 2021)

I've come to the conclusion that the OP was simply trolling and the motorist abuse never happened.
The OP made three posts on two days on this thread, there has been no response to the question of what form the abuse took, and no details of the location, road layout etc. have been given. The OP has not posted on any other thread in the forum.
We have enough genuine complaints against motorists without needing false claims which do more harm than good when it comes to getting along amicably with other road users.


----------



## confusedcyclist (8 Apr 2021)

Drago said:


> If they can't handle the stress and emotional pressure of navigating the overcrowded highways, overcrowding of which they are a part, then they're not fit to be in charge of upwards of a ton of kinetic weapon.



Don't blame the gullible, blame the marketing departments selling the myth that motoring buys freedom in the form of steering wheel shaped manacles. Our humble peers have been duped into believing they need to travel often ridiculous distances from where they live and work, burning finite fuels all in order to to earn a pay cheque for the car payment, the road tax _(sic)_, the polluting oil extraction industry, deep sea oil wells, the leaky container ships, the contaminated land, the asphalt roads, road building, pothole repair, DVLA, the road police units and the (sadly ineffectual) criminal justice system. All this, when the humble bicycle could do it at a fraction of the price, and 100x the joy.

Actually, blame the gullible too, just don't forget the consumerist system is geared up to extract as much wealth as it can at every step in order to absorb any possibility of overproduction and inevitable deflationary collpase of the economy. If it never leads anyone to question why, it is winning. There has to be another way.... if only we knew how?

 🚶‍♂️🏃‍♂️🚶‍♀️🏃‍♀️


----------



## Drago (8 Apr 2021)

While I hear what youre saying Brother, I do blame the gullible.

Sure, the advertised myth of freedom and sex appeal are clearly bullpois, but people actually want to buy into it and do so gleefully.

No one is twisting their arm into buying a Ford Tippex GiT, instead of a much cheaper but deeply uncool Dacia that will easily reach eacppxactly the same speed limits of the slickly marketed alternatives. They actually _want _to be misled and to ne seen to do so. They actually _want _to spend money they haven't got, to buy cars they can't afford, to impress people they don't know, and then get frustrated when the self-perceived status they've bought turns out to be of no tangible advantage. Not only do they want to buy into the myth, they're desperate to do so

Sympathy quotient = zero.

PS, you're completely bang on about the rest of it and had me nodding sagely while reading your wise words.


----------



## confusedcyclist (8 Apr 2021)

Drago said:


> No one is twisting their arm into buying a Ford Tippex GiT
> _SNIP_
> Sympathy quotient = zero.



I doubt you of all people, Drago, underestimate the average human's level of stupidity, but I suspect your tendency to blame the individual leads you to _underestimate _each person's vulnerability to manipulation by external factors. I don't blame you though, this was an attitude I once held myself. Not only do people feel compelled to participate because of the state of the economy, but as I'm sure you can concede there is an entire industry devoted to fabricating desires in people, who, if it were not for clever psychological manipulation, might never have considered signing themselves up to a life of servitude of credit repayments for some goods they likely would never never come across.

To be so impervious to such tricks, takes a level of agency that the majority of humans rarely posses, and our culture does a poor job of instilling such agency, because rallying against consumerism would collapse the living standards of those who depends on that very system for their income. Even those of us who have practiced and honed our skills and are able to operate on the fringes of this culture for our own financial wellbeing do sometimes suffer moments of weakness. It only needs to be such fleeting moments, and the industry trying to manipulate you otherwise finds a way in. Short of living like a monk, with no screens, personal computing devices and away from towns and cities*, it's almost impossible to avoid their attempts at manipulation, so don't be too judgemental of the folk who fall prey.

Unfortunately our market economy requires sustained growth, and so the system is desperately trying to dupe us all in to being good consumers. Being mindful of this, is really the best defence, and degrowth economics is our only real means of fighting back. Those links are to a dictionary on lean logic by David Fleming, I thoroughly recommend anyone interested in these topics considers having a good look.

*There's nothing wrong trying, I radically limit my consumption of consumer goods and services, but I'm not so good at the spiritual stuff


----------



## Drago (8 Apr 2021)

Oh, don't worry - they positively queue up to be manupulated. Even better, if they can't afforded to have market forces manipulate them they can get a PCP plan which allows them to be manipulated.

Most folk aren't wealthy enough to casually submit to such market manipulation, and actually have to put a fair bit of effort into it.


----------



## confusedcyclist (8 Apr 2021)

I don't doubt that individuals do silly things, but the culture in which our children are moulded, if we let it, is definitely skewed to encourage submission to the consumerist mentality. That's where agency, knowledge and alternative culture comes in. It takes a quite radical attitude to go against the grain in that regard.


----------



## Drago (8 Apr 2021)

In my case its pragmatism. Mr Money Mustache is a man after my own heart, and shows what you can do instead if youre not chucking money up the wall in the pursuit of consumer happiness.


----------



## al78 (9 Apr 2021)

confusedcyclist said:


> Unfortunately our market economy requires sustained growth ...



Which is unsustainable. You can't have infinite growth on a finite planet with finite resources.


----------

