# The Olympic Road Race 2012 - Post Mortem



## Rob88 (4 Aug 2012)

Now that all the hype and fuss has died down about the Olympic Road Race and the GB Cycling gurus have vindicated their existence with more predictable track & time trial (clockwork) gold, let's try and have a grown up discussion about what went wrong with the real cycling - the road race, because I don't know about the rest of you but I am furious about the idiotic squandering of our hopes. History repeats itself , British lions led by donkeys.

Let's have some real analysis - no quarter - no reputations

Rules of discussion - do not even think about contributing unless you have won a 1st Cat Road Race or are a county level chess player and happen to understand road cycling. ie no managers, no couch potatoes, no wannabees, no sun glasses.

National Expectations - We wanted a British winner.
The press banged on about Cav and it must be said that the thought of him sprinting down the Mall like the Champs Elysee became a national fantasy but in reality it was always 50/50. The course favoured a breakaway.

Item 1.
No Surrey rider who has ever ridden Box Hill, Woldingham, Cut Mill, White Downs or Leith Hill 8 or more times would think that Cavendish would have or deserve a cat in hell's chance of winning on a Surrey Hill's course in the company of world class single day riders.

Item 2.
GB had arguably the finest 5 man team on form in the world on the start line
The best climber- Froome
The best Sprinter- Cavendish
The best tester - Brad (possibly solo attack / solo win
One of the best Roadman-Sprinters – Millar (Canny, can test and outsprint small Group)
The Best Team Rider – Stannard (Solid as a rock)

Item 3.
Team GB publicly made clear that their plan was to make it happen for Cavendish.
The Tour de France team would repay Cavendish for loyalty.
It was Cav’s turn.
Was this a brilliant bluff or was it a true signal of intent?
I did so hope it was a double bluff.

Item 4 . Alternative Race Strategies:

1. Conventional Plan for Hilly Course – Your best sprinter is ALWAYS Plan B

If team is mediocre - Plan A is to mark every serious move – get 1/2 men into every break – tap through then do the old one two at the death.

If team is exceptional – PLAN A : you expect 2 or 3 of yours placed amongst first 6 then you must take the initiative and make them chase you. Champs (Chimps?) don’t chase but Chumps do in amateur races - all the time.

With small pro teams on the road at the Olympics it is just like top class amateur road racing, an experience that successful track riders turning back to road at a higher level or their managers perhaps do not fully appreciate? 

Item 5. Tactics

First priority - recognize the true favourite – it was Cancellara
What is the greatest tactic in the book ? - Surprise

The greatest surprise the GB team demonstrated – was how surprised they were when everyone else did not roll over and play ball.

Item 6. What if - “Management” had said:

1. We will have a two plus two plus wild card plan. Cav has Stannard to get him to finish. Millar and Froome will police all breaks. Millar will join attacks before climb - Froome will attack on climb to break it up and link with Millar group and drive. Force other teams to chase. Above all they must co –ordinate attacks with true favourite – Cancellara

Wild Card is Wiggins – what will he do and when will he do it? Can he win a Classic?

The only real hope for getting Cav to the finish would be to have other teams chasing GB and his opportunism plus good minder could get him up there.

Item 7. In the Land of the Blind – The One Eyed Man is King

Despite having the “Dream Team” Brailsford failed.
He did not apologise to the nation for this failure of judgement, he said on the BBC he would do it again – as though there was no alternative. He has achieved much but he should take this as a warning – he will not get away with it next time.

The flunkies on the BBC don’t yet understand cycling and they let him off the hook. They understand doping but they don’t understand the other even murkier commercial side of professional cycling. My favourite from the British team on that day, on that course, in that situation was Millar from a 10 man break. The problem with scenario was :
a) his background story
b) he does not ride for Sky

Item 8. Professional Judgement

There was another failure of judgement on the Tour when Sky reined in Froome when Wiggo looked very close to cracking. The race was won, the stage could have been won and glorious history made but the suits froze and battened down the hatches because the sudden glimpse frightened them. They hadn’t discussed it – no contingency plan for this. Froome didn’t help himself much by his theatrics either it must be said, less a signal to Wiggo more a signal to future sponsors.

Item 9. The Mark of a Champion

I was on the Box Hill circuit, I saw the troops following stupid orders to the point of exhaustion. When the Cancellara group made their move and our boys let them go or could not go with them it was obvious the game was up. That much talent up the road was never going to be seen again. It was obvious the group would split and sub-divide 
but the winner was in there for sure. At that point in the game all was virtually lost, a true champion would have gone to the front and helped his team and perhaps with blunted speed sprinted for the bronze and at least gone down fighting.
This did not happen, instead we were offered the sight and sound of a sorrowful man moaning about the Germans and Aussies….a truly whinging Pom.

The last group in a road race is called the laughing group for the trackies who might not know that. Well I know our boys weren’t laughing but I bet a lot of others were.

There is nothing further that needs to be said. I am sure Cavendish will regret those words in the years to come. In the early years of British lone pros making their way in the peletons of Europe the English speakers automatically sought one another out and whether they became true friends or not they generally got on. I fear the legacy of Cav’s emotional outburst will import some of the cricketing animosities for the Aussies into the cycling world and we do not need that.

Item 10. Psycho – Babble
Britain has always produced great cyclists. World beating one-offs. What we have now with tracks, facilities, resources and money - is a production line. Let’s give credit for all the hard work to those that made it finally happen, but gentlemen please remember not to disappear up your own ar—h-l-s and save the intelligent noises for your after dinner engagements. Remember, to win a one day road race requires heart, lungs, and legs all no doubt measurable – but wisdom and experience are something else. That is the true beauty of road racing.


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## Noodley (4 Aug 2012)

It's one of those things, move on


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## Dayvo (4 Aug 2012)

Rob88 said:


> Let's have some real analysis - no quarter - no reputations
> 
> Rules of discussion - *do not even think about contributing unless you have won a 1st Cat Road Race* or are a county level chess player and happen to understand road cycling. ie no managers, no couch potatoes, no wannabees, no sun glasses.
> .


 
Well that rules out virtually everyone on this forum, then!

Team Sky GB used the wrong tactics and overestimated the role of the other teams nations, in that they assumed they would be helped in pulling at the front of the chasing group, it's that simple, IMO.

And apologies, I don't play chess either.


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## rich p (4 Aug 2012)

Where've you been mate. We finished talking about this last week.


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## aJohnson (4 Aug 2012)

Because people who don't do, cant judge, right?


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## threebikesmcginty (4 Aug 2012)

Dayvo said:


> Well that rules out virtually everyone on this forum...



I get ruled out on the couch potato rule too - not that I give a flying f**k!


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## threebikesmcginty (4 Aug 2012)

Rob88 said:


> peletons


 
Oh, I've got another rule - you have to be able to spell peloton. You fail.


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## Smokin Joe (4 Aug 2012)

I actually agree with most of what yer man has to say, but I daren't tell him that as I have never won a first cat road race.

(Does a 10 mile TT count?)


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## Noodley (4 Aug 2012)

Rob88 said:


> ... let's try and have a grown up discussion...
> 
> ...I am furious about the idiotic squandering of our hopes...lions led by donkeys.


 
Off to a flyer....


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## Noodley (4 Aug 2012)

...and where were you when all the rest of us were speaking about it pre-race? 

A bit of a cop-out to come in now and tell us all about what "should" have happened with the benefit of hindsight. But well done on your chess-playing prowess.


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## rich p (4 Aug 2012)

I won the Kicking Donkey Half-Marafun in 1996, against 3 men and a dog, but Roger Dawtrey presented the prizes so I guess I'm qualified to post?


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## redcard (4 Aug 2012)

Noodley said:


> ...and where were you when all the rest of us were speaking about it pre-race?
> 
> A bit of a cop-out to come in now and tell us all about what "should" have happened with the benefit of hindsight. But well done on your chess-playing prowess.



Took him a few days to read opinions around the net, then come shoot it all out here in one long post like the hero that he is.


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## GetAGrip (4 Aug 2012)

Am I able to express my likes for members who have posted in this thread Sir? Even though they (according to your specifications) don't qualify to bring any comments to the table what so ever.
I know, I know, balshy little b*ggers, the lot of them!! But there, what can you do with 'em eh!!


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## deptfordmarmoset (4 Aug 2012)

I couldn't possibly comment, never having raced a cat. I don't even like them.


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## rich p (4 Aug 2012)

Incidentally, if the half-marafun glory doesn't entitle me to comment would a Mod be so kind as to delete my posts. Thanks.


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## Smokin Joe (4 Aug 2012)

Please all kneel down together now, after three...

*WE ARE NOT WORTHY *(Repeat endlessly)


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## Risex4 (4 Aug 2012)

I thought we lost because they guy in the blue jumper peddled faster than the guys in the strange blue-white shirts?

We were abandoned by the other nations who showed a distinct lack of Olympic spirit in helping us to win what was rightfully ours.

Cavandish was knackered from the Tour. Or more probably was still in the habit of looking behind him for the team car to fetch some water.

Wiggins was more preoccupied with the upcoming time trial and the possiblity of lucrative shampoo endorsements.

Froome sat up in his deck chair after 3 Km, possibly distracted by the references to his dog being scribbled all over the road, and no doubt disappointed that there was a distinct lack of "proper hills" to show his team-mates up on.

Millar isn't Sky and therefore isnt TeamGB either, so as he was aiming to lead out neither a team-member of compatriot, probably just enjoyed a nice summer ride instead.

And the other guy, I forget his name, probably has a valid reason for underperforming aswell.

Also, whats a 1st Cat?


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## rich p (4 Aug 2012)

Smokin Joe said:


> Please all kneel down together now, after three...
> 
> *WE ARE NOT WORTHY *(Repeat endlessly)


 You speak for yourself Joe!


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## rich p (4 Aug 2012)

Risex4 said:


> Also, whats a 1st Cat?


 
I think it may be one of the lions being led by a kicking donkey in the OP.


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## Cheshire Celt (4 Aug 2012)

I have never seen his cat racing is it legal do the RSPCA know about IT


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## Risex4 (4 Aug 2012)

To be fair, I have tried racing my cat before. But it was unfair as she wouldn't take her pull, just sat off the back more-or-less asleep.


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## Smokin Joe (4 Aug 2012)

Risex4 said:


> To be fair, I have tried racing my cat before. But it was unfair as she wouldn't take her pull, just sat off the back more-or-less asleep.


You should have partnered her in a Madison, one good hand-sling and she'd have done a very quick lap.


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## rich p (4 Aug 2012)

I'm going to dip out of this one now until or unless Rob2FatLadies comes back on to give us some more ammunition.


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## Crackle (4 Aug 2012)

What an op. Was he hoping for a serious response?


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## Risex4 (4 Aug 2012)

rich p said:


> I'm going to dip out of this one now until or unless Rob2FatLadies comes back on to give us some more ammunition.


 
Aww, I thought this thread was proving to be revolutionarily insightful.

So far we've established that chess isn't popular (at a laymans guess because the tendency to chase the break-away pawns leaves the king exposed); couch potatoes will generally win in spelling competitions, first lions don't do well when led-out by kicking donkeys; cat racing seems to be niche and generally opposed as they are poor road racers, ignoring concerns over the legalities of such events (although there plausibly may be a potential place for them in future track events); and dogs are an unknown entity given that their form in half marathons is highly questionable.

You won't get that level of technical analysis anywhere else!

Yeh, Ok, now I'm bored with it...


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## raindog (4 Aug 2012)

can't wait for the Vuelta


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## Dayvo (4 Aug 2012)

raindog said:


> can't wait for the Vuelta


 
We have to analyse_ last year's_ Vuelta first.


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## ianrauk (4 Aug 2012)

Who did win the race anyway? I guess it was one of those bleedin' foreign Johnnies. A bloody disgrace. Didn't the other bicyclists know that it's the London 2012 Olympics. In Great Britain. It's just not cricket.

I haven't got a Cat, but the last Cat I had (called Smokey), he didn't do any racing. He was far too fat.


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## Smokin Joe (4 Aug 2012)

My cat had kittens once and I though it would be a good idea to teach all six of them to swim at one day old.

It wasn't.


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## Risex4 (4 Aug 2012)

Liked. But going to hell for it.


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## dellzeqq (5 Aug 2012)

Rob88 said:


> Item 1.
> No Surrey rider who has ever ridden Box Hill, Woldingham, Cut Mill, White Downs or Leith Hill......


I've ridden up White Downs, Woldingham (presuming you mean the tougher ride up to the Camp), Leith Hill and Box Hill many many times and

- the race didn't go up Leith Hill, Woldingham or White Downs
- Box Hill is easy-peasy for me, let alone a bunch of pros who are half my age and superfit. 

so I'm not entirely sure that I find the case for the Surrey Hills entirely compelling.........


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## lukesdad (5 Aug 2012)

I lay the blame for this thread firmly on one particular members doorstep.............


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## Hip Priest (5 Aug 2012)

Wow Rob 88, give yourself a pat on the bac...oh, you already have.


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## Ajay (6 Aug 2012)

Rob88 said:


> Item 10. Psycho – Babble


 
You need to put your chimp back in its box


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## GrumpyGregry (6 Aug 2012)

The fault is in the IOC and UCI. Had they allowed the British team to ride high wheelers or, at the very least, fixies like real men we would surely have won. Provided the riders handlebar moustaches didn't get caught in the spokes.


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## GrasB (6 Aug 2012)

As far as I'm concerned Team GB had a plan & seemed to be unable to deviate from that plan be it from physical exhaustion, over commitment to the plan & lacked the willingness to deviate from it or simply not reading the situation properly. Tactically they got it wrong. I feel sorry for Cav being left out of the medals again but that's how the whole thing played out.



Rob88 said:


> Item 1.
> No Surrey rider who has ever ridden Box Hill, Woldingham, Cut Mill, White Downs or Leith Hill 8 or more times would think that Cavendish would have or deserve a cat in hell's chance of winning on a Surrey Hill's course in the company of world


... where I TT & race that course is the *definition* of a sprinters course! FYI I train with & race against cat 1 & 2 riders.


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## User16625 (8 Aug 2012)

I know nothing about cycling and despite what you said about the types of people allowed to contribute to this topic, im gonna do so anyway coz im ignorant.

It seems to me the reason why cav/team gb didnt win was because he/they didnt cycle faster than the winner of the road race. Perhaps cav had a cold or something that reduced his performance. As humans our performance on one day may not necessarily be as good on another day. Dont know if that applies to cav tho.


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## Andy_R (8 Aug 2012)

Does anyone want to swap two guinea pigs or a flat hedgehog for a cat so I can comment in this thread?


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## Cheshire Celt (8 Aug 2012)

Andy_R said:


> Does anyone want to swap two guinea pigs or a flat hedgehog for a cat so I can comment in this thread?


Are the guinea pigs flat too Pmsl


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## Andy_R (8 Aug 2012)

Cheshire Celt said:


> Are the guinea pigs flat too Pmsl


No, just noisy.


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## Ian H (8 Aug 2012)

I have raced as a 3rd cat, but never as a guinea-pig.


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## asterix (9 Aug 2012)

Rob88 said:


> Rules of discussion - do not even think about contributing unless you have won a 1st Cat Road Race or are a county level chess player and happen to understand road cycling. ie no managers, no couch potatoes, no wannabees, no sun glasses.
> 
> .


 
Permission to speak?

(i once beat my brother at chess and he was a pub champion and I don't have a sofa. Having said that I'd never be any good at team cycle racing since I'd want to beat EVERYONE and to hell with being in a team. Teams are all about money and sponsorship, IMO )

They cocked up. That's all you need to know. Having PMs changes nothing.

And anyway did you know that a fit cat can run faster than Usain Bolt? But probably in the opposite direction?


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## oldroadman (9 Aug 2012)

Perhaps the first post should have said no-one should comment who has not raced as a pro, and knows what actually goes on. Which the poster clearly has no idea about. Hindsight is a wonderfully exact science. Criticism is easy, good alternative ideas are harder.
The race was not hilly by pro standards, made for a sprinter, GB played their hand, and it's reasonable to expect the race to play out like a proper pro race, which it did in a way. Aussies and Germans both had sprinters who were at least podium prospects, but failed to ride for them. It did look, as a friend put it, "as if the rest of the peloton decided that a TdF win and World Cjhampion was all that GB were going to get", so rode against them, even to their own detriment. The only thing they didn't see coming was who would win, which was not the best result for anyone except an unrepentent Kazach.
Silly comments about DB, he has constructed what is seen as the strongest team (Sky) in the peloton from a standing start in 3 years. That takes commitment, management skill, and vision.


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## Thomk (9 Aug 2012)

As the only person seemingly qualified to contribute to this thread I will tell you what I think went wrong.

As is often the case when the peloton is chasing a breakaway the riders/teams in the peloton are playing a game of prisoners dilemma. It is of benefit to all teams in the peloton to contribute effort into catching the breakaway as that is the only way to have a chance of winning a medal. If none contribute then all in the peloton lose. However....if team GB commit to the cause and the others (e.g. the Germans) don't then there is a chance of greater benefit to the Germans (and others) i.e. the Brits knacker themselves out so much in catching the breakaway that their leadout train fails giving the big German bloke a chance of getting gold. But there is a great danger in this and this is what happened. The Brits were not capable of catching the large and talented breakaway on their own and by the time the others caught on and began helping it was too late.

So in short - we did not have the opportunity to win the race because:

We were not strong enough on our own to catch the breakaway
The other teams gambled and failed in their gamble not to help the Brits
The breakaway was too big and talented to catch without other teams helping
The Brits did not conceive that the other teams would have such bad judgement (which in itself is bad judgement)


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## Monsieur Remings (10 Aug 2012)

If Wiggins was a chess piece, would he be a King or a Queen (given the strange analogy between chess and road cycling)?


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## Rob88 (11 Aug 2012)

Thank you “oldroadman” and “Thomk” for taking the trouble to reply courteously to what doubtless appeared to be a high handed and arrogant posting. Your comments certainly merit a reply below but first I must unreservedly apologise to you both and the other 1,000 or so people who viewed this thread and did not rise to the bait. Please allow me to explain why I started my rant the way I did.

When I decided to post my viewpoint I was very conscious of the likely reaction by many of this forums habitual contributors. I followed the latest Lance Armstrong court case correspondence and was appalled by some of the toxic postings. I decided that should my opening gambit be presented like a red rag to a bull I would be able to flush out at the outset the people best avoided. I waited to respond until I got replies from people who cared enough about the sport to focus on the message rather than sledge the messenger – it took longer than I expected.

I have to say the whole process was quite absorbing from an anthropological viewpoint. The early attackers probed at first, uncertain of the reaction then as more of their familiars joined in the attack they gained confidence as the pack gathered. Then the feeding frenzy really got going as they convinced themselves it was justifiable cruelty and contempt. Then they all lost interest as the cause of their annoyance appeared lifeless. I suppose that’s how bullying works. 

Needless to say the subject is open to all and I welcome serious discussion from all new contributors. I certainly still have strong views on the subject and if someone can convince me otherwise it may help the grieving process…

Oldroadman
You are correct to surmise I have never raced as a pro but I have raced several times against British pros and many times against national teams. 
You throw the old adage about hindsight 20/20 vision etc into the mix rather unfairly I think. I concede the point that it may look as though I chose Cancellara as the favourite with benefit of hindsight but since he crashed out it negates this somewhat. If we are going to learn from our mistakes we have to understand as best as possible what happened and why, that is the whole point of the exercise. The only accusation I make about the business in hindsight, is anger at myself and my own surprise when GB let the first break go unmarked on the flat out of London and then it dawned on me there was no bluff, GB really were nailing themselves to the public plan.

You wrote:
“it's reasonable to expect the race to play out like a proper pro race, which it did in a way. Aussies and Germans both had sprinters who were at least podium prospects, but failed to ride for them.”

Well I have two problems with that, first one is weak in this context second a show stopper:

The first commandment in amateur road racing is “Thou shalt not chase your own team-mates” if you have someone up the road, even if you have a better prospect trapped behind.
More importantly, the last thing the other teams wanted was a bunch sprint, they knew that even if his team was in shreds and lead out uncertain Cavendish would have got up there whatever it took. Why should they put it on a plate for him?

You accuse me of making “silly comments about DB”
I don’t think this was fair - this is what I actually said:

“Despite having the “Dream Team” Brailsford failed.
He did not apologise to the nation for this failure of judgement, he said on the BBC he would do it again – as though there was no alternative. He has achieved much but he should take this as a warning – he will not get away with it next time.”

It was watching DB say this on TV that prompted me to file this rant in the first place. He did not take responsibility for the monster error of judgement as I think he should have.
Had he said “I screwed up, it was a big gamble and it did not come off, the boys rode their hearts out. I take full responsibility for it.” I would have said fair enough, he is big enough to admit his mistakes and I would have had even more respect for him and my comments would never have been posted.

We all know what he has achieved and I assure you I admire him as much as you do but not unreservedly.We all screw up but if you cannot admit it, you – and those around you have a problem.

Subsequent to making my posting I saw him give another interview on the BBC with Gary Lineker at the height of all the gold medals pouring in from the track teams. He very deservedly received high praise for this and admitted that he had been approached by various interested parties for his undoubted managerial/motivational skills. When pressed, he clearly stated he would not take these offers up, he knew cycling and that is where he would stay. When I heard this I was rather surprised, he is the man of the moment and could write his own contracts. This was the classic time to move onto something else when you are at the top of your game, remember (Sir) Clive Woodwood after the Rugby World Cup?

Then it dawned on me, I realized what he saw in four years time in Rio. If we almost cleaned up on the track this time with the Manchester track to play with, what could we (he) do in four years time with another centre of excellence in the London track. Over the next four years every world track record will be broken by the British trackies in Manchester competing with the flood of new talent in London. The competition to get into the GB track squad will look like the world championships in itself. Why not – if the Chinese can totally dominate a sport like table tennis and clean up all the medals why can’t we? GB has the edge, the resources, the will power and best of all the organization in place already – thanks to Brailsford. The world is playing catchup but we have just doubled our track facilities, and I bet we double our funding after the games – the future in this respect looks stupendous.

Well this is all just great, but there is just this little bit of grit in my eye. So what happens when we win every track gold in Rio and still mess up the road race- who do we blame then? Better not blame the Aussies again the Queen will never forgive us if they finally quit the Commonwealth

Thomk
I agreed more or less completely with your own analysis but with different emphasis;

You say:
“2. The other teams gambled and failed in their gamble not to help the Brits”
The riders left with the GB group as they left the Boxhill circuit all knew the Brits were finished, they also knew that the best guys were a minute up the road and they were not coming back. Why should they chase their own riders? They had more chance of a gold in the lottery of the breakaway than by towing Cavendish up there. Yes I am sure there was an under-current of professional pleasure of seeing the Brits squirming on the hook of their own making but that’s what happens when you fail to treat your rivals with respect. In reality they simply did not ride to help us, many more injudicious comments from our boys and heaven help us if they truly ride against us.


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## lb81 (11 Aug 2012)

An observation regarding the DB discussion on the Olympics programme:

When Lineker asked if his talents would work for other sports his answer was that the 'model' would work for any sport and indeed in other walks of life. He also said that it was about making an individual the best they can be, as part of an ongoing cycle of peaks at the right times for major events and clearly he and the rest of the BC team have got it spot on.

The way i see it, in regard to the road the focus was on the TDF and for the Olympics it was the track.

All our key guys are in the form of their lives in line with DB's master plan as above. The problem was they had clearly decided that they were going to deliver Cav to the mall to sprint home for gold and that was that. There was no plan B and if it didnt work then so be it.

They knew they had shown their hand. If it worked then the glory would have matched the hype. As it was, it didnt work out and they got the glory anyway by cleaning up pretty much everything else.

In the wake of such massive success, i would say that DB has nothing to apologise for whatsoever. If the plan was to simply 'win the road race' we would have smashed it, of that there is no question in my mind based on current form. It was lost because the entire team dedicated themselves to one member in the same way Team Sky dedicated themselves to BW during the TDF. 

I was gutted about the road race, but in light of other success there is no grit left in my eyes, although i might need my shades due to the glare coming from all the gold the team have around their necks...


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## raindog (11 Aug 2012)

Rob88 said:


> When I decided to post my viewpoint I was very conscious of the likely reaction by many of this forums habitual contributors. I followed the latest Lance Armstrong court case correspondence and was appalled by some of the toxic postings. I decided that should my opening gambit be presented like a red rag to a bull I would be able to flush out at the outset the people best avoided. I waited to respond until I got replies from people who cared enough about the sport to focus on the message rather than sledge the messenger – it took longer than I expected.


What pompous, arrogant tosh. It's this kind of bollox that could put newcomers to the forum off posting in here.


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## Noodley (11 Aug 2012)

Rob88 said:


> ... a high handed and arrogant posting.


 
Thats's the first valid point you have made.


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## Flying_Monkey (11 Aug 2012)

Summary: Rob88 thought he was too good for the existing discussion on the road race, which had already discussed all of the points he made within his patronising OP, first was rightfully ridiculed for his attitude, then got pwned by oldroadman (an actual ex-pro cyclist) and finally was forced to backtrack, concede many of his points, and pretend it was all an anthropological experiment.

Another serving of humble pie, anyone?


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## redcard (11 Aug 2012)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Summary: Rob88 thought he was too good for the existing discussion on the road race, which had already discussed all of the points he made within his patronising OP, first was rightfully ridiculed for his attitude, then got pwned by oldroadman (an actual ex-pro cyclist) and finally was forced to backtrack, concede many of his points, and pretend it was all an anthropological experiment.
> 
> Another serving of humble pie, anyone?



You're being stupid. This is obviously the second stage of his experiment.


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## mcshroom (11 Aug 2012)

Strangely I do qualify as a county (and as a junior, international) class Chess player.

My reading of what happened was that the breakaway got a jump on the last climb as they would have to if they didn't want to set up a parade for Cavendish. Team Sky were too far back in the bunch going up a narrow road and were not able to pull back in such a large group.

You would have expected the Gemans and others to have worked a bit harder in pulling that break back in, but if the GB team had positioned themselves better at Box Hill on the last climb where the attack was likely to come then they may not have needed to pull in a break at all.

In summary, it's racing and they missed the break - it happens.


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## Rob88 (14 Aug 2012)

For the benefit of the early contributors coming back for another bite the clue was in the opening.
In chess the word "transpose" means shifting the game on to a different opening track from that on which it started. Players sometimes use transpositions deliberately in order to avoid variations they dislike, lure opponents into unfamiliar or uncomfortable territory or simply to worry and unbalance them.

Glad to hear from a chess player as I was struggling to typify GB's opening reaction to the first attack which revealed to all their absurd game plan and set the scene for the whole disaster. How would you describe it Mcshroom, perhaps Queens Gambit Declined?


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## Chris-H (14 Aug 2012)

All i want to know is does anyone know when it'll be repeated,me and the mrs missed it


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## mcshroom (14 Aug 2012)

I would personally describe it as neglecting an opponents attack on your king as you are too busy protecting your knight, due to a belief that you will win by material superiority alone, regardless of actual position


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## rich p (14 Aug 2012)

Rob88 said:


> For the benefit of the early contributors coming back for another bite the clue was in the opening.
> In chess the word "transpose" means shifting the game on to a different opening track from that on which it started. Players sometimes use transpositions deliberately in order to avoid variations they dislike, lure opponents into unfamiliar or uncomfortable territory or simply to worry and unbalance them.
> 
> Glad to hear from a chess player as I was struggling to typify GB's opening reaction to the first attack which revealed to all their absurd game plan and set the scene for the whole disaster. How would you describe it Mcshroom, perhaps Queens Gambit Declined?


 You have some serious self-esteem issues here. Have you thought about seeing a trick cyclist?

Alternatively and a mite cheaper, I might add, just set up a poll on here as to how many think you're wickedly clever and able to manipulate others at will and how many think you're a prick. I'm undecided as yet by the way.


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## Dayvo (14 Aug 2012)

rich p said:


> Alternatively and a mite cheaper, I might add, just set up a poll on here as to how many think you're wickedly clever and able to manipulate others at will and how many think you're a prick. I'm undecided as yet by the way.


 
Ooh, you fibber! You made your mind up after reading the very first post!


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## Risex4 (14 Aug 2012)

Nuts to it, I'll bite again and take the flame wrap.

What a cretin.

Firstly before we get into things; strategy 101. Simplcity. Whether its war, politics, cycling or some weird-ass pseudo ploy rubbish about flushing out toxic posters, you keep things simple. A needlessly over-complicated and convoluted plan is a plan more prone to failure or yield freak results (ie results not of the planner's design). And is often the mark of an incompetent strategist ironically enough. Thats a freebee for you.

You're opening grand oration. 3,517 words can be condensed down into about four sentances;
Despite having the 'best riders' (a matter of opinion, not fact. Debating 101 freebee; don't present opinion as out-and-out fact - logical fallacies invaldiate any argument), we didn't meet the expectations of winning the race (expectations you rather presumptuously attribute to "the nation", and then consequently get 'expectations' mixed up with 'hopes' or 'aspirations'), a fault which can be wholly layed at Dave Brailsford's door on the fact that he got the tactics wrong amd should have known better (solidly linking failure in achieving a goal to failure of tactical planning. These two things are never, ever, in a mutually exclusive relationship when you have external variables. Like other riders).

You then go on to set out the grand master plan of tactics which would have surely yielded a different result, and pose counter-factual scenerios. All rather splendid, but in reality holds about as much merit in arguing at length as wondering what the world be like if man had evolved wings. If Hitler hadn't dithered between marching directly on Moscow and splitting Army Group Centre up constantly chasing multiple objectives, might we all now be speaking German and looking forward to the Rennen rund um das Reich?

The waffle about the BBC was irrelevant and superfluous to the debate you were trying to initiate (see #over complication). Therefore I choose to ignore it.

As far as DB not appologising; who to? You? Im glad he hasnt done anything so crass. Its the mark of a man who knows what he's doing, accepts the fluidity of the game he plays and knows he will (along with his charges) learn and improve. Winners don't appologise for losing - ever - because they know it losing is part of winning.

As I was evidently a bully first time around, please allow me to retort properly. As strong a line up as we TeamGB put out, there are no certainties in competitive action. You can only plan to mitigate your weaknesses and your opponents strengths. Sometimes these plans are enough, sometimes they aren't. Could we have tried something different? Of course. Is the outcome of that destined to be different to reality? Who knows? What if we had chased down the break-away? Maybe got the peleton over excited into saturation attacks which the four guys protecting Cav would have ran out of steam trying to consistently ward off? And yielded the same result? Ultimately DB says he wouldn't have done anything different, and Im personally inclined to take the evaluation of someone who has achieved what he has achieved. As you yourself conceed.

Ergo, this is sport. Shyte most definately happens. The most well laid plans of mice and men lead to Man United being knocked out in the 3rd Round of the League Cup by York City.

You're second dissertation. I can't be bothered to go on much longer, but the problem with guys who exhibit Napoleon Complex is that they of course are very rarely Napoleon. I saw no bullying or attacking mentality. A discussion (which as I've already said, invalidated itselt from the off) merely delved into a bit of light hearted ribbery. A man of skill could have remedied the situation rather easily. If you were looking to stimulate a high-level debate, somehow by stirring up a hornets nest... how do I put this? Oh, thats simple. Tactically, you got it wrong.

This is all of course assuming that a debate was your actual aim as you stated? Hmm.
Here's the thing though. If you are such a tactical genuis on unsurpassed bredth of experience, Im sure you will maintain an equally highly qualified peer group. Which begs the question why are you here in the first place? If you are "appalled" by a society's expression and commentary, why insert yourself into said society? To change it? To mend its wicked ways and put it on the path to enlightenment? What a noble crusade. Or, alternatively, you're not merely a troll are you? Trolls get ridiculed. And bullied. With justification.

As a man of undoubted superior interlect, consider the following; "The most ignorant of peasants makes the wisest of kings."

Now, stop being an ass and chat nicely. You just may be surprised by what mere mortals can add to a discussion.

This post was fuelled with 80% alcohol and 20% chicken korma. No llamas were harmed during the construction of this reply.


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## mcshroom (14 Aug 2012)

Risex. I may agree with most of what you say, but as someone may have just posted, simplicity is the way to go


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## Noodley (14 Aug 2012)

Whatever it was supposed to be, it turned out as 100% nobbery


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## Risex4 (15 Aug 2012)

mcshroom said:


> Risex. I may agree with most of what you say, but as someone may have just posted, simplicity is the way to go


 
 Zinged myself proper.

I can't half talk some tripe at times.


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## raindog (15 Aug 2012)

Risex4 said:


> Zinged myself proper.
> 
> I can't half talk some tripe at times.


don't we all


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## Ian H (15 Aug 2012)

It was a moderately entertaining race. The best man on the day won. The women's race was far more aggressive and exciting. I really can't get worked up about nationalities and home riders.


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## yello (15 Aug 2012)

When I first read the OP a few days back I thought it could actually be an educational thread for me. I'll happily admit to knowing next to nothing about racing tactics so thought I might learnt something. I did think the tone of the OP would upset a few but hoped that'd get ignored (I am hopefully naive sometimes) in the name of an interesting discussion between experts. It is a shame it didn't happen.

I think FM was right. The discussion in the original thread covered the bases and was, for me, more informative.


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## LarryDuff (15 Aug 2012)

Just read the OP and first thought is the author is a bit of an arse.

Do you have to be an expert on a subject before you can have an opinion,

Does that I can't discuss international football, rugby or cricket because I've never played any of those above a mediocre club standard?


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## oldroadman (15 Aug 2012)

Amongst all this fascinating exchange of opinion, somewhere along the line the women's race was mentioned. Where on the first pass of Box Hill, Emma Pooley put the big hammer down, and promptly Lucy Martin (who was a lead out rider for Lizzie Armistead) was out of the back. Lap 2 of Box Hill, and Nicole Cooke is out of the back through the village, and only regained the peloton by clinging to another riders wheel for several kms, then spent plenty of time in the back half of the peloton. So, 2 from 4 selected were not any use to the cause. However Emma rode well in defence when Lizzie slipped away in a group of 4, reduced to 3 by a puncture in the truly horrible conditions. In a sprint with Vos, Lizzie would maybe win 1 in 20, so a silver placing was the best likely, and she got it.
Observations:

Cooke was a mistake, and maybe got selected on the basis of being able to "rise to the occasion". She didn't, despite the post-race comment about defending. Hard to do from the back.
Martin was too young and badly positioned for the pace set on the first climb. Tactics may have been a bit adrift, it's not the plan to lose your sprinters lead out rider if possible.
Sharon Laws rode a stormer in the Nationals, and would have been my pick in place of Cooke.
Tactics would be a bit changed, before Emmas hard ride on the first climb, Lucy needed to be near the front to a) let a gap open, and b) ensure she was still in the peloton by the hill top. Then sit tight and wait for others to chase a known good climber/time trialist, move up the peloton, and sit out the second climb. She then may have been able to defend or help Lizzie.

All that said, it was a race of attrition in foud weather for the second half, with a little element of luck (regarding punctures). In those conditions, Lizzie proved she is the best we have when the going gets tough. Overall, with hindsight, 8/10 for tactics, 7/10 for selection (reduce because of the Cooke/Laws error), 10/10 for courage from the riders.
Overall result a definite 9/10, only because 2nd is good, even when a win is unlikely
All observations based on watching the race from the inside, in a priviledged position.


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## Noodley (15 Aug 2012)

Oh FFS it was weeks ago! Let it go!!!


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## oldroadman (15 Aug 2012)

[QUOTE 1986355, member: 1314"]First post in the Pro-cycle room but as I've cycled the Olympic course with some peeps from here, I can speak from experience. Team GB did not win for 3 obvious reasons - diet, attitude and equipment.

Diet: They did not stop off at that nice pub in Gomshall for a beer and a pie (though bangers and mash would've done),

Attitude: As they passed through Kingston Wiggo gave a wave and smile to my 9 year old. He needs to toughen up and stop being so nice.

Equipment: The tops don't have pockets for storing wallets. Which is why they couldn't stop off at Gomshall.

My CV is already in to work alongside Brailsford.[/quote]


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