# Wheels



## jowwy (1 Sep 2013)

The budget is circa 1K - looking for lighweight, strong wheels for climbing in the welsh valleys.

I am a big lump at around 230lbs , can hold down the power on the flats and rolling terrain, but looking for some lighweight climbers to help on the steeper climbs.

So throw them at me guys......ideas so far are. 

Zipp 101's 

shimano dura ace c35/50


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## VamP (1 Sep 2013)

The 101s are neither light, nor particularly good. They won't stretch your budget either as they are around £400. Zipp's failed cynical foray into alu wheel market. 

Can you live with tubs?

Are you looking for carbon? I am guessing yes at your price point.

Your budget won't stretch to the premium brands (Zipp, Enve etc) but a set of handbuilt Gigantex tubs will come in at around 1300g and £600-700 for a 50 mm rim, and a bit less for a 38mm. That's where I'd look.

Getting them handbuilt means you can specify spoke count, if you want to beef them up.

Still, at 230lbs, don't expect miracles from a saved 300 grams.


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## Milzy (1 Sep 2013)

If I was your weight I'd budget £300 on hand builts from Harry Rowland. But it's your money!


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## jayonabike (1 Sep 2013)

If your budget can stretch up a fair bit Merlin Cycles are currently selling Zipp 202 Firecrest Carbon Clinchers for £1499. They're knocking out Zipp 101s for £825 as well. I think vamP might be thinking of the Zipp 30s rather than the 101s which are around £500

I have the 202's and I weigh around 95 - 100 kg and have no issues at all. I am also considering the 101's for my next project. I would also give Harry a ring and ask about handbuilts.


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## VamP (1 Sep 2013)

jayonabike said:


> If your budget can stretch up a fair bit Merlin Cycles are currently selling Zipp 202 Firecrest Carbon Clinchers for £1499. They're knocking out Zipp 101s for £825 as well. I think vamP might be thinking of the Zipp 30s rather than the 101s which are around £500
> 
> I have the 202's and I weigh around 95 - 100 kg and have no issues at all. I am also considering the 101's for my next project




I was thinking of these.

The 202s are decent wheels, but you can save a lot of weight and some money with these instead of the clinchers.


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## Spoked Wheels (1 Sep 2013)

jowwy said:


> The budget is circa 1K - looking for lighweight, strong wheels for climbing in the welsh valleys.
> 
> I am a big lump at around 230lbs , can hold down the power on the flats and rolling terrain, but looking for some lighweight climbers to help on the steeper climbs.
> 
> ...




What weight are you looking at?

Sub 1500g at your weight you would be throwing your money away. Just MHO


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## jowwy (1 Sep 2013)

jayonabike said:


> If your budget can stretch up a fair bit Merlin Cycles are currently selling Zipp 202 Firecrest Carbon Clinchers for £1499. They're knocking out Zipp 101s for £825 as well. I think vamP might be thinking of the Zipp 30s rather than the 101s which are around £500
> 
> I have the 202's and I weigh around 95 - 100 kg and have no issues at all. I am also considering the 101's for my next project. I would also give Harry a ring and ask about handbuilts.



i have just bought the 202 firecrest from merlin cycles - thought 1499 was a bargain - i already have handbuilts on the bike from dcr wheels which will be transfered to my defy 4 commuter/winter bike


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## jowwy (1 Sep 2013)

RRSODL said:


> All things considered I'd would concentrate
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i like honest opinions, but as its my money its also my choice whether to spend it or not - with 5k of bikes in my stable i think a nice set of carbons will add to the smile the sabbath already puts on my face.


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## jowwy (1 Sep 2013)

VamP said:


> I was thinking of these.
> 
> The 202s are decent wheels, but you can save a lot of weight and some money with these instead of the clinchers.



thats 500 just for the front wheel


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## jayonabike (1 Sep 2013)

Yes it is, 101s are around a grand a pair


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## jowwy (1 Sep 2013)

VamP said:


> I was thinking of these.
> 
> The 202s are decent wheels, but you can save a lot of weight and some money with these instead of the clinchers.



also the tubs have a limit of 225lbs


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## Rob3rt (1 Sep 2013)

Don't a lot of wheels have a claimed weight limit of around 90kg?


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## jayonabike (1 Sep 2013)

Worth a read (Zipp 101 review)


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## jowwy (1 Sep 2013)

Rob3rt said:


> Don't a lot of wheels have a claimed weight limit of around 90kg?



zipp have a rider limit of 250lbs on all their wheels according to their website


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## VamP (1 Sep 2013)

jowwy said:


> thats 500 just for the front wheel




OMG you're right. What a horrific rip off.


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## VamP (1 Sep 2013)

jayonabike said:


> Worth a read (Zipp 101 review)




So they are heavy and not aero. Well worth a grand.


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## VamP (1 Sep 2013)

jowwy said:


> zipp have a rider limit of 250lbs on all their wheels according to their website




Except the tubs? That's fishy, as tubs are generally much stronger due to simplicity of construction.


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## Spoked Wheels (1 Sep 2013)

jowwy said:


> i like honest opinions, but as its my money its also my choice whether to spend it or not - with 5k of bikes in my stable i think a nice set of carbons will add to the smile the sabbath already puts on my face.



Fair point.


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## jowwy (1 Sep 2013)

@Mr Haematocrit will be happy with my recent purchase too i think


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## musa (1 Sep 2013)

HED Jet 6 C2 i got going free im to get some c50 shortly 

if interested


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## jayonabike (1 Sep 2013)

VamP said:


> So they are heavy and not aero. Well worth a grand.


Sometimes, just sometimes, it's not all about the weight. The O.P hasn't said he wants them for racing, he has said he weighs over 100 kg so an extra 150g or so aint going to make much difference, a couple of bananas in your back pocket weigh more. Of course your right, there are lighter more aero wheels out there for less money, but he's not after that. They're well built by one of the leading wheel manufacturers and in a sale at £825 they're certainly a pair of wheels worth considering.


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## Mr Haematocrit (1 Sep 2013)

jowwy said:


> @Mr Haematocrit will be happy with my recent purchase too i think



The 202 firecrest IMHO is possibly one of the best all round wheels I have ever ridden, in terms of pure areo they are not far behind 404 yet they spin up and climb exceptionally well, descend amazing and just inspire confidence.
If someone lined up my 202, 404, 808, Lightweights or EVNE wheels in front of me and said I could only have one set it would be the 202 without doubt.

Find a nice hill jowwy with a bit of a twisty descent and the grins come faster than the corners


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## jowwy (1 Sep 2013)

Mr Haematocrit said:


> The 202 firecrest IMHO is possibly one of the best all round wheels I have ever ridden, in terms of pure areo they are not far behind 404 yet they spin up and climb exceptionally well, descend amazing and just inspire confidence.
> If someone lined up my 202, 404, 808, Lightweights or EVNE wheels in front of me and said I could only have one set it would be the 202 without doubt.
> 
> Find a nice hill jowwy with a bit of a twisty descent and the grins come faster than the corners



i got plenty of hills to choose from thats for sure


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## Mr Haematocrit (1 Sep 2013)

Remember to get some pictures of the bike up when they are fitted


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## VamP (1 Sep 2013)

jayonabike said:


> Sometimes, just sometimes, it's not all about the weight. The O.P hasn't said he wants them for racing, he has said he weighs over 100 kg so an extra 150g or so aint going to make much difference, a couple of bananas in your back pocket weigh more. Of course your right, there are lighter more aero wheels out there for less money, but he's not after that. They're well built by one of the leading wheel manufacturers and *in a sale at £825 they're certainly a pair of wheels worth considering*.



Well it's your money...


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## jowwy (1 Sep 2013)

VamP said:


> Well it's your money...


dont worry vamp i went for firecrest 202's at 1499 which are superb wheels at that price point


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## Rob3rt (1 Sep 2013)

jayonabike said:


> *Sometimes, just sometimes, it's not all about the weight*. The O.P hasn't said he wants them for racing, he has said he weighs over 100 kg so an extra 150g or so aint going to make much difference, a couple of bananas in your back pocket weigh more. Of course your right, there are lighter more aero wheels out there for less money, but he's not after that. They're well built by one of the leading wheel manufacturers and in a sale at £825 they're certainly a pair of wheels worth considering.





> looking for lighweight, strong wheels for climbing in the welsh valleys.



So other than "strong" which is a given requirement in wheels, no-one wants fragile wheels, Jowwy wants wheels that are lightweight for climbing, i.e. it is all about the weight, regardless of whether he is racing or not.


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## jowwy (1 Sep 2013)

Rob3rt said:


> So other than "strong" which is a given requirement in wheels, no-one wants fragile wheels, Jowwy wants wheels that are lightweight for climbing, i.e. it is all about the weight, regardless of whether he is racing or not.


and jowwy has got them - zipp firecrest 202's on the reccomendation of @Mr Haematocrit


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## Rob3rt (1 Sep 2013)

Enjoy!


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## jowwy (3 Sep 2013)

The wheels have come with brake pads - can i just put these into my own brake pad holders or do i need specific holders for them - sorry if its a stupid question


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## Rob3rt (3 Sep 2013)

The former.

The brake pads are carbon specific, do not use them on your aluminium rims, as they will get small bits of metal embedded which will then damage the carbon braking surface.


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## jowwy (3 Sep 2013)

Thanks rob and no they won't be used on alu rims - Jowwy


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## VamP (3 Sep 2013)

Rob3rt said:


> The former.
> 
> The brake pads are carbon specific, do not use them on your aluminium rims, as they will get small bits of metal embedded which will then damage the carbon braking surface.



I see as many claiming that as disputing it. I suspect it might be received wisdom that perpetuates, I'm not noticing any adverse wear and use my yellow kings on both carbon and metal. Maybe I will in time...


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## Rob3rt (3 Sep 2013)

You would be well advised to listen to the manufacturer when it comes to ££££ wheels, even if there are no adverse effects, if they decide to try to get out of a warranty claim, you are only giving them fuel by ignoring such advice.


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## e-rider (3 Sep 2013)

jowwy said:


> The budget is circa 1K - looking for lighweight, strong wheels for climbing in the welsh valleys.
> 
> I am a big lump at around 230lbs , can hold down the power on the flats and rolling terrain, but looking for some lighweight climbers to help on the steeper climbs.
> 
> ...


take a diet - far more effective for climbing faster than any wheel upgrade will ever be (and much cheaper)
lightweight climbing wheels will suffer under your weight. esp the rear wheel and you'll probably have many problems with it not staying true


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## Rob3rt (3 Sep 2013)

e-rider said:


> take a diet - far more effective for climbing faster than any wheel upgrade will ever be (and much cheaper)



Too late, he already bought them and he will enjoy them!


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## jowwy (3 Sep 2013)

e-rider said:


> take a diet - far more effective for climbing faster than any wheel upgrade will ever be (and much cheaper)
> lightweight climbing wheels will suffer under your weight. esp the rear wheel and you'll probably have many problems with it not staying true


never had a problems with wheels staying true before - and telling somebody who you don't know anything about and do not know what they are doing to alter their weight and get fit, personally i think is rather rude............but then i expect that from some people on this forum and your one of them. Now go fourth


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## e-rider (3 Sep 2013)

jowwy said:


> never had a problems with wheels staying true before - and telling somebody who you don't know anything about and do not know what they are doing to alter their weight and get fit, personally i think is rather rude............but then i expect that from some people on this forum and your one of them. Now go fourth


didn't you say that you were 230lbs?
Unless you are over 7 feet tall you are overweight! Assuming that you are under 6'3" you could save a lot more weight by taking a diet than buying some fancy new wheels. Being the correct weight not only saves weight for climbing but also makes the body function better too - a double winner.
If you want to remain the same weight and buy some new wheels then fine, but the improvements you notice will be very minimal.


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## vickster (3 Sep 2013)

Being welsh and all, perhaps he is a extremely well muscled professional rugby player?


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## jowwy (3 Sep 2013)

e-rider said:


> didn't you say that you were 230lbs?
> Unless you are over 7 feet tall you are overweight! Assuming that you are under 6'3" you could save a lot more weight by taking a diet than buying some fancy new wheels. Being the correct weight not only saves weight for climbing but also makes the body function better too - a double winner.
> If you want to remain the same weight and buy some new wheels then fine, but the improvements you notice will be very minimal.


you still making the assumption that i'm.not already dieting and training to get my weight down.


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## jowwy (3 Sep 2013)

yeeeeeeaaaaahhhhhhhhh


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## avsd (3 Sep 2013)

Enjoy and do lots of  on them


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## PaulSecteur (3 Sep 2013)

OPEN THE BOXES!!! OPEN THE BOXES!!!

Then put some tyres and take them for a spin... put your old wheels in the boxes, santa will never know!


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## jowwy (3 Sep 2013)

PaulSecteur said:


> OPEN THE BOXES!!! OPEN THE BOXES!!!
> 
> Then put some tyres and take them for a spin... put your old wheels in the boxes, santa will never know!



i have opened them and im working my magic on swmbo - reckon they will be on the bike by sunday


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## PaulSecteur (3 Sep 2013)

Take pics before they have to be wrapped up


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## jowwy (3 Sep 2013)

will try nd get pics tomorrow


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## Mr Haematocrit (3 Sep 2013)

Tease.. lol

Fantastic wheels


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## jowwy (3 Sep 2013)

they do look very nice - hope they do my titanium beauty proud @Mr Haematocrit


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## jowwy (4 Sep 2013)

SWMBO has cracked already - so the wheels will be fitted tonight ready for its first ride on sunday @PaulSecteur @Mr Haematocrit @Rob3rt


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## Mr Haematocrit (4 Sep 2013)

Nice one @jowwy .... when do you think it will be the right time to try to swing Di2 past her


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## jowwy (4 Sep 2013)

Mr Haematocrit said:


> Nice one @jowwy .... when do you think it will be the right time to try to swing Di2 past her


thats on the cards for xmas or possible birthday in april.......slowly slowly catch a monkey


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## jowwy (4 Sep 2013)

They have now been fitted


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## PaulSecteur (5 Sep 2013)

Looks good!!!
I wanted beyond black but they had sold out.


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## Dusty Bin (5 Sep 2013)

Nice wheels. Presumably you are still waiting for new tyres to arrive? Hence the reason for the GP4 seasons...? The Conti is a good, sturdy winter tyre, but it's a shame to be negating some of the benefits that the 202s potentially offer by fitting heavy winter tyres that won't do justice to the (high) cost of the wheels. Just my opinion.


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## jowwy (5 Sep 2013)

Dusty Bin said:


> Nice wheels. Presumably you are still waiting for new tyres to arrive? Hence the reason for the GP4 seasons...? The Conti is a good, sturdy winter tyre, but it's a shame to be negating some of the benefits that the 202s potentially offer by fitting heavy winter tyres that won't do justice to the (high) cost of the wheels. Just my opinion.


heavy tyres - they only weigh about 220grammes as they are folders not wire bead


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## Dusty Bin (5 Sep 2013)

Yes, but it's like using dumper tyres on a Ferrari. A set of GP4000S, Open Corsa or Veloflex would make more sense, especially if these are 'best' wheels, which I presume they are.


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## Rob3rt (5 Sep 2013)

Still could do with something nice and supple, IMO. But do as you like, as they say, your money


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## Spoked Wheels (5 Sep 2013)

Dusty Bin said:


> Yes, but it's like using dumper tyres on a Ferrari. A set of GP4000S, Open Corsa or Veloflex would make more *sense*, especially if these are 'best' wheels, which I presume they are.



Sense, keyword. Some people have too much money and very little sense


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## Mr Haematocrit (5 Sep 2013)

@jowwy that looks amazing, really cool.
Hope you think they ride like it looks.


S-works Turbo 24c is the Tyre to run IMHO.


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## jowwy (5 Sep 2013)

Dusty Bin said:


> Yes, but it's like using dumper tyres on a Ferrari. A set of GP4000S, Open Corsa or Veloflex would make more sense, especially if these are 'best' wheels, which I presume they are.


gp4000s have already been ordered just awaiting delivery - so will use 4seasons for now


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## jowwy (5 Sep 2013)

RRSODL said:


> Sense, keyword. Some people have too much money and very little sense


sense is correct i have plenty - but u talk lots of NON sense on times


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## jowwy (5 Sep 2013)

Mr Haematocrit said:


> @jowwy that looks amazing, really cool.
> Hope you think they ride like it looks.
> 
> 
> S-works Turbo 24c is the Tyre to run IMHO.


how good is the fairy protection on those tyres


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## Mr Haematocrit (5 Sep 2013)

I've no idea other than stating I have not had a puncture since running them on all my bikes, this includes the recent rain drenched Brighton fnrttc where many people got punctures and I did not.

You can read my thoughts and links to other reviews at the following URL
http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/specialized-s-works-turbo-24c-x-700.132842/


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## Dusty Bin (5 Sep 2013)

Let's hope they're better than the original Turbo S from the 90s. I've still not a NOS pair in my spares box and that's where they're staying...


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## Mr Haematocrit (5 Sep 2013)

Dusty Bin said:


> Let's hope they're better than the original Turbo S from the 90s. I've still not a NOS pair in my spares box and that's where they're staying...



Best place for them is the bin, they might get a puncture in your box..... my goodness that old compound was dire..think they shared it with marigold.


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## Dusty Bin (5 Sep 2013)

Mr Haematocrit said:


> Best place for them is the bin, they might get a puncture in your box..... my goodness that old compound was dire..think they shared it with marigold.



compound? - I've got t-shirts with thicker fabric than those tyres..


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## goody (6 Sep 2013)

Mr Haematocrit said:


> I have not had a puncture since running them on all my bikes, this includes the recent rain drenched Brighton fnrttc where many people got punctures and I did not.


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## jowwy (6 Sep 2013)

OK - whats the difference between the 4 seasons and the 4000s - they are both the same weight so i can't see why one would be quicker then the other 


unless it just down to the chilli compound


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## Dusty Bin (6 Sep 2013)

jowwy said:


> OK - whats the difference between the 4 seasons and the 4000s - they are both the same weight so i can't see why one would be quicker then the other
> 
> 
> unless it just down to the chilli compound



Composition, ply, compound - the difference between the two is like chalk and cheese. Weight isn't actually that much of an issue in terms of how well a tyre rolls - or how it feels once under way.


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## jowwy (6 Sep 2013)

Dusty Bin said:


> Composition, ply, compound - the difference between the two is like chalk and cheese. Weight isn't actually that much of an issue in terms of how well a tyre rolls - or how it feels once under way.


i see it still has the vectran breaker for fairy protection - so i have ordered them


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## jowwy (6 Sep 2013)

just been out on a quick 11mile loop - they are awesomely smooth and quick - wait til i get the dumper tyres removed and proper boots fitted. 

One happy zipp owner - yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh


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## Mr Haematocrit (6 Sep 2013)

The 202s are great wheels, never cease to impress, with latex tubes and fast rubber they simply fly along.


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## jowwy (6 Sep 2013)

Mr Haematocrit said:


> The 202s are great wheels, never cease to impress, with latex tubes and fast rubber they simply fly along.


just need to lose some midrif timber now @Mr Haematocrit and keep my power to weight ratio high and then i will be one happy bunny.


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## e-rider (6 Sep 2013)

jowwy said:


> heavy tyres - they only weigh about 220grammes as they are folders not wire bead


_only_ 220 grams! you'll be telling us next that you have standard tubes too! Why spend a fortune on these wheels and then fit heavy tyres and probably heavy tubes too?


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## Rob3rt (6 Sep 2013)

It is only a handful of grams heavier than a GP4000s.


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## jowwy (6 Sep 2013)

e-rider said:


> _only_ 220 grams! you'll be telling us next that you have standard tubes too! Why spend a fortune on these wheels and then fit heavy tyres and probably heavy tubes too?


gp4000s in 25mm are 230grammes - so what u getting at??????


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## fossyant (6 Sep 2013)

I use the 4 Seasons as my commute tyre. I run Pro Race 4 on the best bike with latex tubes, and my, do they fly. 4 seasons are about the best all round lightweight tyre for all round use, including commuting. The Pro Race 4's are in a different class and sub 200g - they feel much more responsive on the road. The GP4000's are also good.

Down side is the conti's have a brown sidewall - can you can get black GP4000's?


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## jowwy (6 Sep 2013)

e-rider said:


> _only_ 220 grams! you'll be telling us next that you have standard tubes too! Why spend a fortune on these wheels and then fit heavy tyres and probably heavy tubes too?


and too answer your question - because i wanted them and can afford them


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## Rob3rt (6 Sep 2013)

fossyant said:


> I use the 4 Seasons as my commute tyre. I run Pro Race 4 on the best bike with latex tubes, and my, do they fly. 4 seasons are about the best all round lightweight tyre for all round use, including commuting. The Pro Race 4's are in a different class and sub 200g - they feel much more responsive on the road. The GP4000's are also good.
> 
> Down side is the conti's have a brown sidewall - can you can get black GP4000's?



As far as I know, my GP4000s are all black bar the logo's. CBA to walk in the other room to see if I am right, lol


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## User6179 (6 Sep 2013)

fossyant said:


> I use the 4 Seasons as my commute tyre. I run Pro Race 4 on the best bike with latex tubes, and my, do they fly. 4 seasons are about the best all round lightweight tyre for all round use, including commuting. The Pro Race 4's are in a different class and sub 200g - they feel much more responsive on the road. The GP4000's are also good.
> 
> Down side is the conti's have a brown sidewall - can you can get black GP4000's?


 
My gp4000s are all black!


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## fossyant (6 Sep 2013)

Thought they might be. That's the only down side with the 4 season, but it doesn't show the brake/alloy crap in the wet like black (or coloured does).

I find the 4 season doesn't make a whoosh sound though. Pop on some lighter tyres with latex tubes, and add in carbon rims - they will sound ace - they sound fantastic on alloy rims.


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## jowwy (6 Sep 2013)

ok so what latex tubes should i buy?????


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## e-rider (6 Sep 2013)

jowwy said:


> ok so what latex tubes should i buy?????


Go for normal butyl tubes but the lightweight options such as the Continental Supersonic, latex tubes require very frequent pumping (like everyday)


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## jowwy (6 Sep 2013)

at the moment i am using conti race lights - just weighed one ans its 84grammes - so i dnt think 25g less will make much of a difference


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## Rob3rt (6 Sep 2013)

That's 25g per wheel, 50g total! Leave the dust caps and any of those annoying little washer knut things (these things are utterly pointless and only serve to work loose and make noises which confuse and annoy) off too!


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## jowwy (6 Sep 2013)

is 50grammes goin to make that much diff in the grand scheme of things


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## Rob3rt (6 Sep 2013)

No, but why carry an extra 50g around when you don't need to, that's 50g worth of extra sweets you can carry without a penalty!


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## jowwy (6 Sep 2013)

Rob3rt said:


> No, but why carry an extra 50g around when you don't need to, that's 50g worth of extra sweets you can carry without a penalty!


good answer, thats the best one i have heard all day


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## VamP (6 Sep 2013)

It's not the weight so much, as the reduced rolling resistance and better handling that's the main bonus with latex. Pumping up wheels before every ride is a valid trade-off except for the very lazy.

Latex tubes also puncture less easily.


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## PaulSecteur (6 Sep 2013)

VamP said:


> Latex tubes also puncture less easily.



Is this true?

Mine (Michelin) feel very fragile when being handled. (Not had a visit yet, but that's me cursed!)


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## VamP (7 Sep 2013)

PaulSecteur said:


> Is this true?
> 
> Mine (Michelin) feel very fragile when being handled. (Not had a visit yet, but that's me cursed!)



I have only had 1 puncture since I started using them ( nearly 5k miles) all on racing Vittoria Open Corsas, which are not particularly puncture resistant by themselves, and that was a slow puncture that took about 10 minutes to run down. Others with latex report similarly reduced puncture incidence. Something to do with higher elasticity of latex over butyl apparently...


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## Dusty Bin (7 Sep 2013)

I've never really bought into the latex tube argument. Realistically, I don't know how much 'reduced rolling resistance' a latex tube will give you, given that it is the tyre which is in contact with the road, not the tube. I've tried both butyl and latex tubes and can't tell the difference - and I've managed to go the whole of this year without a puncture yet, on butyl tubes.


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## VamP (7 Sep 2013)

Dusty Bin said:


> I've never really bought into the latex tube argument. Realistically, I don't know how much 'reduced rolling resistance' a latex tube will give you, given that it is the tyre which is in contact with the road, not the tube. I've tried both butyl and latex tubes and can't tell the difference - and I've managed to go the whole of this year without a puncture yet, on butyl tubes.




I don't want to get all evangelical about it, in fact if we ever come up against one another in a race, I'll be glad of my secret advantage, but if you have access to a power meter and rollers it's really easy to test for yourself. The difference is bigger than you'd think on perfectly smooth rollers, and bigger still on rough tarmac.

Fundamentally though, the rolling resistance of a tyre is a function of its construction, and the tube is a part of that. Why do you think race tyres have higher thread counts?


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## Mr Haematocrit (7 Sep 2013)

As @VamP says the difference is noticeable with Latex tubes, it is measurable and changes the way the entire wheel/tyre set feels.


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## Dusty Bin (7 Sep 2013)

Sorry - the difference is not noticable to me at all. That's not to say there isn't one - simply that I personally can't detect it. The tube, however, is self-evidently not part of a tyre's construction - unless we are talking about tubs, but that's a whole different discussion. The purpose of any tube is to keep the tyre inflated - nothing more.



VamP said:


> in fact if we ever come up against one another in a race, I'll be glad of my secret advantage,



The only advantage that matters is a better power/weight ratio


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## PaulSecteur (7 Sep 2013)

Dusty Bin said:


> ...The tube, however, is self-evidently not part of a tyre's construction...



Not part of its construction, but when in place and inflated its going to be as good as.

Im about to swap the conti race inners to my Michelin latex ones (with 202s and s-works turbo tyres). I think the effect will be more noticeable for lighter riders, but latex tubes do seem to go along with a pleasant "zimmm"


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## Mr Haematocrit (7 Sep 2013)

Dusty Bin said:


> The only advantage that matters is a better power/weight ratio



Take the brakes of your bike, it makes the bike lighter so increases your power to weight ratio.  The performance gains are most noticeable when descending.


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## Rob3rt (7 Sep 2013)

Dusty Bin said:


> Sorry - the difference is not noticable to me at all. That's not to say there isn't one - simply that I personally can't detect it. The tube, however, is self-evidently not part of a tyre's construction - unless we are talking about tubs, but that's a whole different discussion. The purpose of any tube is to keep the tyre inflated - nothing more.
> 
> 
> 
> *The only advantage that matters is a better power/weight ratio *



Nope!


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## Dusty Bin (7 Sep 2013)

Mr Haematocrit said:


> The performance gains are most noticeable when descending.



You mean they roll better. If that's your experience with them, then I can't dispute it - but like I said, I have genuinely never noticed any difference.



Rob3rt said:


> Nope!



I personally can't think of a better advantage than an improved power/weight ratio. Isn't that what everyone is striving for?


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## Rob3rt (7 Sep 2013)

Dusty Bin said:


> I personally can't think of a better advantage than an improved power/weight ratio. Isn't that what everyone is striving for?



Whilst good power/weight ratio is never a bad thing, it is not always of paramount importance. For example in a flat time trial, power/CdA would be the primary focus.


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## VamP (7 Sep 2013)

Dusty Bin said:


> The tube, however, is self-evidently not part of a tyre's construction - *unless we are talking about tubs*, but ...




The vast majority of tubs* have a separate latex tube sown up inside, it is no more a part of their 'construction' (if you want to get pedantic about it) than a latex tube inside a clincher. In both cases the tyre and the tube work together to define the rolling characteristic of the wheel.

*The only exception AFAIK to that are TUFO tubs which integrate the tube in the construction of the tyre in a unique design.


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## Dusty Bin (7 Sep 2013)

Rob3rt said:


> Whilst good power/weight ratio is never a bad thing, it is not always of paramount importance. For example in a flat time trial, power/CdA would be the primary focus.



For you perhaps - but my focus is crits/circuits, which is why I can't think of a better advantage than power/weight..


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