# Mercedes cars - what a disappointment!



## Globalti (12 Sep 2019)

We've been hiring cars regularly from Enterprise recently and have been upgraded to an A class and today, a C class. The A class was horrible, it had a ghastly bling interior with a digital display like a tart's boudoir and a weird fault where something seemed to grab the front OS wheel causing the car to falter and swerve with a graunching noise. We couldn't understand the controls or switch off the display. The engine and gearbox were good though. Today we have a C class, which is less vulgar but has a highly tuned 1500cc petrol engine so driving it is like walking a greyhound on amphetamines. Neither car has a feel of quality, the paintwork is poor and the finishing around the edges of the bodywork is crap. The C class has lots of road noise from the rear and the gearbox and handbrake are illogical and not intuitive at all.

What a massive disappointment. I can only assume Mercedes have dumbed their cars down for the PCP buyer and are making them somewhere like Romania or Bulgaria.


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## Slick (12 Sep 2019)

Was the weird fault lane control that takes steps to correct your road position if your drifting?


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## CharlesF (12 Sep 2019)

The bling is the pull of the Chinese market, also evident in the huge grills on BMW and Audi. Only Alfa seem to a resisted.


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## sleuthey (12 Sep 2019)

CharlesF said:


> The bling is the pull of the Chinese market, also evident in the huge grills on BMW and Audi. Only Alfa seem to a resisted.


That is also apparently why Ford have swapped to using 1.0 and 1.5 engines because they tie in nicely with the VED bands in China


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## I like Skol (12 Sep 2019)

I have lusted after a powerful diesel C class for a long time after loving the perfection of Merc vans. I finally almost realised my dream when I test drove a C350cdi 2012 model in 2015. What a massive disappointment, loads of power and a super gearbox, but that was it. Unintelligible controls and felt like being sat in a squalid, dark bathtub, not a nice place to be.
I was so upset, in theory it should have been the best regular car in the world, but Mercedes had turned it into the ultimate post-coital disappointment. Modern cars are not what they should be. I think Homer Simpson has a hand in their design....


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## fossyant (12 Sep 2019)

The flat TFT dash, that is a display is a massive issue. It's OK having the extra's on it, but not speed/revs as the sun bounces off - main information should be easy to see....


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## RussellZero (12 Sep 2019)

Seems to be a common theme - been a BMW owner for 15 years and just switched to a 2013 Merc E class 350D, I found BMWs have all become bland and the same, so to get some variety gone for a different brand! You have to go for high specs to get something that feels nice or slightly different.


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## Richard A Thackeray (13 Sep 2019)

I don't like the models for the past 10-15 years, but would love a 'W123' (shape) estate, with the chrome roof-rails, & colour-coded hubcaps
(a diesel/manual though!)

OR, an original G-Wagon (not the arty-farty. pimpmobiles, they've become)

Failing that, can I have a Uni-Mog. p-l-e-a-s-e!!??


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## Oldfentiger (13 Sep 2019)

Mrs OFT has been driving a C220d for the last 3 years and she absolutely loathes it, mainly because she finds the seat excruciating on any trips longer than an hour. Only 12 months left on the lease, so she’s looking at the company car list for her next choice.
Front runner at the moment is the Mazda CX-5 Sport Nav + Auto.
Loaded with useful toys, and will pull our caravan with ease (and it’s comfortable).
I had one of these when they first appeared and loved it.
She won’t entertain BMW because of the knobs that sell them, and the cocks that drive them.


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## Globalti (13 Sep 2019)

Interesting comments. Maybe I've been spoiled by spending the last 12 years or so driving Passat estates, the B6, the B7 and now the B8 with wonderful DSG. The car pootles along on tickover and you can pull away smoothly with bags of power and no screaming revs, the interior is sober, simple and intuitive and you sit high with a light cabin and plenty of glass around you. There's good reason why it's the best selling mid-sized saloon and popular with taxi drivers.


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## biggs682 (13 Sep 2019)

CharlesF said:


> The bling is the pull of the Chinese market, also evident in the huge grills on BMW and Audi. Only Alfa seem to a resisted.



You must live in cloud cuckoo land an Alfa would never make it to china without breaking down about 12 times at least


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## Dec66 (13 Sep 2019)

I have a two year old C200D estate, with the Premium pack, and I love it to bits.

I find the interior is a lovely place to be.

So there.

(You're right about the A class though, I drove one of those and didn't like it at all)


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## Drago (13 Sep 2019)

They used to be the favoured cars of dictators worldwide, from Hitler to Saddam to Mussolini to Marco's and Pinochet, bit no longer.


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## Globalti (13 Sep 2019)

Oldfentiger said:


> Mrs OFT..... won’t entertain BMW because of the knobs that sell them, and the cocks that drive them.



So true. I'd be mortified to be seen driving a BMW although my Dad had a 2002 back in the 70s. Nobody knew what they were then.


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## slowwww (13 Sep 2019)

Oldfentiger said:


> Front runner at the moment is the Mazda CX-5 Sport Nav + Auto.
> .


I test drove that too, but found it was a wallowy old Hector to drive. I instead chose its sister model the 6 Sport Nav auto that has a much bigger boot and is far more pleasant to drive.


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## Phaeton (13 Sep 2019)

Drago said:


> from Hitler to Saddam to Mussolini to Marco's and Pinochet, bit no longer.


That's because they are all dead & no longer need a car


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## Drago (13 Sep 2019)

All dead as a result,of Mercedes!

Hitler, suicide because his Merc broke down again.

Mussolini, shot by angry cyclists and hung by his heels.

Marcos, murdered by Extinction Rebellion for polluting the air with his 600 Grosser.

Pinochet, died of old age with a Mercedes picnic rug over his legs.


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## Dec66 (13 Sep 2019)

Drago said:


> All dead as a result,of Mercedes!
> 
> Hitler, suicide because his Merc broke down again.
> 
> ...


Mussolini drove an Audi, then?


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## Drago (13 Sep 2019)

Yeah, but was the wifes.


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## Cycleops (13 Sep 2019)

Phaeton said:


> That's because they are all dead & no longer need a car


Are you sure? Mugabe had one for his final trip!


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## Richard A Thackeray (13 Sep 2019)

Oldfentiger said:


> She won’t entertain BMW because of the knobs that sell them.


Rather curiously, I called at the local Skoda dealer, whilst I was out on the CGR on Tuesday, to enquire about a new service book (as mine will be full at the next service)
Some lad (mid-late 20s?) came to me, after simply looking at me, standing by the door, waiting with the bike
_"Yes, mate!?"_
I had expected, at least; _"Good morning, can I help you?"
_






Globalti said:


> Interesting comments. Maybe I've been spoiled by spending the last 12 years or so driving Passat estates, the B6, the B7 and now the B8 with wonderful DSG. The car pootles along on tickover and you can pull away smoothly with bags of power and no screaming revs, the interior is sober, simple and intuitive and you sit high with a light cabin and plenty of glass around you. There's good reason why it's the best selling mid-sized saloon and popular with taxi drivers.


Likewise, with my Octavia
(re-mapped, 1.6Tdi)


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## Electric_Andy (13 Sep 2019)

I follow a guy on Youtube who's been a mechanic for 50 years. According to him (I have little personal experience) Merc, BMW and VW's are not the well-built machines they used to be. He only rates Honda, Toyota and Lexus now. I didn't surprise me that nearly every Honda Civic I looked at for sale had more than 100k miles on. For me, that's a sign that people keep them and put trouble-free miles on them.

My ex had a Merc A-class. I didn't like it, it looked like a space ship inside and she had to scrap it at 80k miles because the automatic gearbox went bang


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## Electric_Andy (13 Sep 2019)

Richard A Thackeray said:


> I had expected, at least; _"Good morning, can I help you?"_


 off topic but I find professional courtesy sadly lacking these days


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## Grant Fondo (13 Sep 2019)

Oldfentiger said:


> Mrs OFT has been driving a C220d for the last 3 years and she absolutely loathes it, mainly because she finds the seat excruciating on any trips longer than an hour. Only 12 months left on the lease, so she’s looking at the company car list for her next choice.
> Front runner at the moment is the Mazda CX-5 Sport Nav + Auto.
> Loaded with useful toys, and will pull our caravan with ease (and it’s comfortable).
> I had one of these when they first appeared and loved it.
> She won’t entertain BMW because of the knobs that sell them, and the cocks that drive them.


Sir, I am not a cock, alas I did buy from a knob.
Yours
G Fondo esq


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## gbb (13 Sep 2019)

Electric_Andy said:


> I follow a guy on Youtube who's been a mechanic for 50 years. According to him (I have little personal experience) Merc, BMW and VW's are not the well-built machines they used to be. He only rates Honda, Toyota and Lexus now. I didn't surprise me that nearly every Honda Civic I looked at for sale had more than 100k miles on. For me, that's a sign that people keep them and put trouble-free miles on them.
> 
> My ex had a Merc A-class. I didn't like it, it looked like a space ship inside and she had to scrap it at 80k miles because the automatic gearbox went bang


I suspect ive seen the same videos. My son IL is a qualified garage mechanic, my Polish colleague is a many years experienced mechanic who loves his German cars, particually Mercs and i've heard from many other (particually US) youtubers, and many agree, German cars just aint what they used to be. Overpriced, over complex, unreliable in some cases and will bankrupt you with the high end models when/ if they go wrong.


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## gbb (13 Sep 2019)

Richard A Thackeray said:


> Rather curiously, I called at the local Skoda dealer, whilst I was out on the CGR on Tuesday, to enquire about a new service book (as mine will be full at the next service)
> Some lad (mid-late 20s?) came to me, after simply looking at me, standing by the door, waiting with the bike
> _"Yes, mate!?"_
> I had expected, at least; _"Good morning, can I help you?"_
> ..........)



That's because he saw you on a bike and realised you're not an up yourself nobber. I'd take it as a compliment


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## vickster (13 Sep 2019)

gbb said:


> will bankrupt you with the high end models when/ if they go wrong.


That's nothing new though


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## Joey Shabadoo (13 Sep 2019)

gbb said:


> I suspect ive seen the same videos. My son IL is a qualified garage mechanic, my Polish colleague is a many years experienced mechanic who loves his German cars, particually Mercs and i've heard from many other (particually US) youtubers, and many agree, German cars just aint what they used to be. Overpriced, over complex, unreliable in some cases and will bankrupt you with the high end models when/ if they go wrong.



My company run Passats which are fine but because my wife is in a wheelchair they broke with their policy and got me a Touran. It's ok but it has a really annoying flaw built in. The rear tyres scrub off the inside shoulder and after about 15k the noise is appalling, sounds like worn bearings. I complained a few times to the dealership and they always said nothing was wrong but then one of their mechanics confided that it's because the rear suspension geometry is set up to make it corner better at the expense of the tyre. There's no way around it other than rotating tyres front to back every 10,000 miles to minimise the pain.

Pretty shoddy imo.


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## Richard A Thackeray (13 Sep 2019)

gbb said:


> That's because he saw you on a bike and realised you're not an up yourself nobber. I'd take it as a compliment


Maybe an inverse compliment, but not good manners, towards a potential customer surely?



Diogenes said:


> My company run Passats which are fine but because my wife is in a wheelchair they broke with their policy and got me a Touran. It's ok but it has a really annoying flaw built in. The rear tyres scrub off the inside shoulder and after about 15k the noise is appalling, sounds like worn bearings. I complained a few times to the dealership and they always said nothing was wrong but then one of their mechanics confided that it's because the rear suspension geometry is set up to make it corner better at the expense of the tyre. There's no way around it other than rotating tyres front to back every 10,000 miles to minimise the pain.
> 
> Pretty shoddy imo.



My Octavia was the same on the original tyres; Dunlop SP Sport , they _'castellated'_ (wear on alternate blocks - like the stonework on a turret) & sounded awful


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## Racing roadkill (13 Sep 2019)

I remember when all this was fields.


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## MarkF (13 Sep 2019)

Richard A Thackeray said:


> I don't like the models for the past 10-15 years, but would love a 'W123' (shape) estate, with the chrome roof-rails, & colour-coded hubcaps



Yes! In petrol green please.

All German cars mean to me today is r.u.s.t. Would never buy one.


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## Globalti (13 Sep 2019)

My Passat B6 and B7 both had the problem of sawtooth wear of the inside edges of the rear tyres and a droning noise. When you drive behind those cars you can see the camber on the wheels. I got a photo of the tyre spinning on a balancing jig, which clearly showed the loss of rubber from the inside quarter of the tread. I sent it to VW UK and kicked up a fuss and after a battle they agreed to pay to realign the rear subframes, my reasoning being that if the tyres run on their inside edges but not 100% parallel you'll get scrubbing and wear. Interestingly, a few months later I got a phone call out of the blue from a German engineer from VW saying: "I hear you've got a rather good photo of Passat tyre wear... would you mind emailing it to me?"

My B8 doesn't have the problem so they must have re-designed the rear suspension.


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## Phaeton (13 Sep 2019)

MarkF said:


> All German cars mean to me today is r.u.s.t. Would never buy one.


You appear to be stuck in the past, there is a bad period 2000-2004 but outside of that they are no worse than any other car


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## Cycleops (13 Sep 2019)

MarkF said:


> Yes! In petrol green please.
> 
> All German cars mean to me today is r.u.s.t. Would never buy one.


Don't you mean t.r.u.s.t. ?


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## screenman (13 Sep 2019)

MarkF said:


> Yes! In petrol green please.
> 
> All German cars mean to me today is r.u.s.t. Would never buy one.



Never see it and I work on German cars most days.


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## Oldfentiger (13 Sep 2019)

Grant Fondo said:


> Sir, I am not a cock, alas I did buy from a knob.
> Yours
> G Fondo esq


Read my post more carefully and you will see that it’s Mrs OFT’s opinion. She wouldn’t be thrilled to be addressed as “Sir”.


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## gbb (13 Sep 2019)

vickster said:


> That's nothing new though


Tis true. Circa 2001 a colleague brought a BMW 330 convertible...he loved it but bugger he said, everything cost a fortune come service or repair time.


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## Grant Fondo (13 Sep 2019)

Oldfentiger said:


> Read my post more carefully and you will see that it’s Mrs OFT’s opinion. She wouldn’t be thrilled to be addressed as “Sir”.


If you could pass on my apology to the good lady OFT it would be appreciated.


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## Electric_Andy (13 Sep 2019)

gbb said:


> I suspect ive seen the same videos.


 Scotty Kilmer. I'm strangely entertained by him. He seems impartial though


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## Cycleops (13 Sep 2019)

Electric_Andy said:


> Scotty Kilmer. I'm strangely entertained by him. He seems impartial though


Bit like Clarkson on steroids.


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## vickster (13 Sep 2019)

gbb said:


> Tis true. Circa 2001 a colleague brought a BMW 330 convertible...he loved it but bugger he said, everything cost a fortune come service or repair time.


My brother has a now elderly Alpina B3.3 Touring. It’s a gorgeous car, a lovely beast but it’s quite costly to maintain (at specialist).
He fancied an M5 or S8 but those could have done terrifying costs


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## MarkF (13 Sep 2019)

screenman said:


> Never see it and I work on German cars most days.



I have to walk 15 mins into work (since my m/bike was stolen), it's in BD9 which is German car city. I park up my 2002 Ford and go boggle eyed as I walk past far newer VAG cars rusty as hell, it's always VAG cars that I notice. There are a lot of E46 coupes, all rusted up wings, Passats bubbled up, an V6 Audi a convertible, 05 or 06, has holes that you can poke your fingers through on both front wings, how much was that car new £35/40K, blimey!


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## fossyant (13 Sep 2019)

biggs682 said:


> You must live in cloud cuckoo land an Alfa would never make it to china without breaking down about 12 times at least



Aye, but everyone must have one to kill the itch. The 2.0 147 Selespeed I had was great to drive, shame it was in the garage lots - fortunately a company car.


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## otek59 (13 Sep 2019)

biggs682 said:


> You must live in cloud cuckoo land an Alfa would never make it to china without breaking down about 12 times at least


harsh but sadly true, at least they look lovely at the side of the road while it’s waiting to be fixed


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## otek59 (13 Sep 2019)

Cycleops said:


> Bit like Clarkson on steroids.


Actually that sounds quite scary


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## Cycleops (13 Sep 2019)

otek59 said:


> Actually that sounds quite scary


Heres one of his videos, you'll see what I mean.


View: https://youtu.be/stgbkISNhF8


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## Cletus Van Damme (13 Sep 2019)

I had a 2017 E Class Estate E220D AMG Line as a company car. I don't know why I got that, as it's above my pay grade. For a 43K car it was really average. I've always had Japanese cars that I bought around 6 years old. I certainly wasn't blown away by a Merc in any shape or form. It was comfortable, the drivers seat is the best I have been in for comfort, although a Nissan Navara is very close. It was reasonably quick for the size of it, handled fairly well for a big car, but it was just lifeless, no feeling in the steering at all. The ride wasn't great with the Pirelli run-flats. The rear ones did about 11,000 miles and they had totally had it, £275 a corner. It had a really bad squeak from the rear parcel cover. The only way I could stop it was getting a piece of packing material from the stores at work and stuffing it in-between the cover and it's mounting. It was also horrendous to park and hard to judge it's mammoth size, I kerbed one of the massive wheels.

I've also been in an A Class, a 2017 and I just didn't get that car at all. It was no better than an Astra to me. Really cheap looking dash, the newer ones are better. The owner of the car totalled a wheel in a pothole, and used the MB SOS service. This was an AMG line so had flash alloys, it was £1250 for a new alloy and tyre off MB, fortunately the council paid up.

I think these cars, like most German cars are sold on image. I'd imagine a Skoda Superb is a better car than a lowish model E-Class. I now have a 2018 Golf GTD, it's a way, way better car than the E-Class, in every department. More so as I don't need the space of such a huge car. It's a lot better built. It certainly doesn't set your soul on fire, but it's reasonably quick, comfortable and handles pretty well. The steering has little feedback at all, but I've found that with a lot of electric power steering cars I've driven, plus I used to have an MX5, you kind of feel every single thing that is going on with one of those, due it's size and complex suspension setup (Mk3 NC) I'd imagine that a Focus ST is a better drive than a Golf GTD/GTI, but possibly not as comfortable or as well built. If I was buying privately, I'd get a Skoda Octavia VRS, as it looks identical, except for the boot, cheaper also. But then again I'd probably get a Kia or Hyundai, or possibly a Toyota instead, as I'd imagine they are more reliable than any of the German cars and "prestige" branding means little to me though, as in my experience it's a bit of a fallacy. Could be wrong though..


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## keithmac (13 Sep 2019)

Not heard a good word said about Mercedes cars recently!.

As said you cannot go wrong with anything Japanese built, car or motorcycle wise.


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## Simon1234 (13 Sep 2019)

Have a 12 plate e class cabriolet and it is a solid car with no problems in 3 years. They are over engineered according to mechanic, and do well in reliability surveys. But had a c class hire car recently and definitely a step backwards in quality and NVH. Looked at c class cab recently and poor interior. Push the button assembly and it moves, and plastics are cheap. For 40k new! So the accountants have taken over again. But no way am going near a VAG product and so narrows the field...


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## fossyant (13 Sep 2019)

I've been impressed with my lads Skoda Fabia Monte Carlo (current model). We got it for a good price as it's got nearly 70k on it (4 years old) but it's got everything in it and will do over 55mpg despite the fact it's bloody quick (1.2 turbo petrol), although the suspension and tyres are too hard for me.

We have Nissans, and I've been really happy with the reliability - I'd happily buy a used 370Z. Their small cars aren't great at present (other than the new Micra) so we got the Fabia for my son. 

Some of these fancy dashboards don't work though - why have everything on a digital display that is affected by sunlight


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## fossyant (13 Sep 2019)

Simon1234 said:


> Have a 12 plate e class cabriolet and it is a solid car with no problems in 3 years. They are over engineered according to mechanic, and do well in reliability surveys. But had a c class hire car recently and definitely a step backwards in quality and NVH. Looked at c class cab recently and poor interior. Push the button assembly and it moves, and plastics are cheap. For 40k new! So the accountants have taken over again. But no way am going near a VAG product and so narrows the field...



Skoda ! Cheaper, but seem much more reliable. Yes there are some cheaper plastics in it than the VW.


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## Simon1234 (13 Sep 2019)

Yes, we had 2 Skoda roomsters. For the bikes - they have an interior bike rack. First one needed a new gearbox at 60k outside of warrantee. 2.5 k repair. Second had a water leak and was 1.5k repair under warantee. All Audi drivers I know have had major issues inside 3 years. German reliability is a myth.


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## Spoked Wheels (13 Sep 2019)

Globalti said:


> my Dad had a 2002 back in the 70s



mmmm I guess your Dad must be driving a 2050 now


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## screenman (14 Sep 2019)

MarkF said:


> I have to walk 15 mins into work (since my m/bike was stolen), it's in BD9 which is German car city. I park up my 2002 Ford and go boggle eyed as I walk past far newer VAG cars rusty as hell, it's always VAG cars that I notice. There are a lot of E46 coupes, all rusted up wings, Passats bubbled up, an V6 Audi a convertible, 05 or 06, has holes that you can poke your fingers through on both front wings, how much was that car new £35/40K, blimey!



I do not work on older cars, certainly those around 14 years old have a problem. After market panels fitted to older cars do not last long either.


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## screenman (14 Sep 2019)

fossyant said:


> Skoda ! Cheaper, but seem much more reliable. Yes there are some cheaper plastics in it than the VW.



That is news to me, I drive a Skoda a and do work for a VW agent, the plastic seems the same.


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## screenman (14 Sep 2019)

I would add that Japanese cars are not as reliable as they once were. Material and paint quality along with many engine problems have changed my opinion of them, looking for a Fabia at the moment as a second car after many years of having Japanese vehicles for that purpose, the current Mazda is breeding rust.


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## Mo1959 (14 Sep 2019)

screenman said:


> I would add that Japanese cars are not as reliable as they once were. Material and paint quality along with many engine problems have changed my opinion of them, looking for a Fabia at the moment as a second car after many years of having Japanese vehicles for that purpose, the current Mazda is breeding rust.


I've had a few Toyotas and they have been reliable, but I agree that, like most cars now they are becoming much less solidly built than the older ones. No doubt everything is so lightweight and plasticy to get the weight down to boost their mpg figures, but personally, I would rather have a few mpg less and have a more substantial car.

I asked the garage I go to for servicing about car reliability and he still rates the Toyotas though.


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## screenman (14 Sep 2019)

Mo1959 said:


> I've had a few Toyotas and they have been reliable, but I agree that, like most cars now they are becoming much less solidly built than the older ones. No doubt everything is so lightweight and plasticy to get the weight down to boost their mpg figures, but personally, I would rather have a few mpg less and have a more substantial car.
> 
> I asked the garage I go to for servicing about car reliability and he still rates the Toyotas though.
> 
> I used to rate Toyota's up until the Avensis is replaced the Carina, does your mechanic work on new Toyota's the techs I know that do are not happy, as there seems like most makes they have many hard to find faults.


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## CharlesF (14 Sep 2019)

This is all you need


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## Joey Shabadoo (14 Sep 2019)

CharlesF said:


> This is all you need
> View attachment 485017



Because the rest of the car will have rusted away?


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## CharlesF (14 Sep 2019)

Show me a rusted Alfa, I never seen one on the road!


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## Globalti (14 Sep 2019)

If you go anywhere in Africa, where people will run a car until it actually breaks apart and where the terrible roads and lack of maintenance destroy everything, there's only one name: Toyota. Many trucks are very old Bedfords because they can be fixed by the roadside by a bush mechanic.


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## Jimidh (14 Sep 2019)

Oldfentiger said:


> Mrs OFT has been driving a C220d for the last 3 years and she absolutely loathes it, mainly because she finds the seat excruciating on any trips longer than an hour. Only 12 months left on the lease, so she’s looking at the company car list for her next choice.
> Front runner at the moment is the Mazda CX-5 Sport Nav + Auto.
> Loaded with useful toys, and will pull our caravan with ease (and it’s comfortable).
> I had one of these when they first appeared and loved it.
> She won’t entertain BMW because of the knobs that sell them, and the cocks that drive them.


I used to have a CX-5 and it was a great car. I would thoroughly recommend one.


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## Joey Shabadoo (14 Sep 2019)

CharlesF said:


> Show me a rusted Alfa, I never seen one on the road!



Friends came to a barbecue this summer in their Alfasud, but there was a shower and we didn't get it under cover in time.


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## Dirk (14 Sep 2019)

CharlesF said:


> Show me a rusted Alfa, I never seen one on the road!


You've answered your own question.


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## gavroche (14 Sep 2019)

My wife has had her 4 year old Nissan Juke for a month now and I must say it has been reliable so far after driving it about 400 miles. No problems. 
On the other hand , my also 4 year old now Renault Captur which has done 46000 miles has been faultless and 100% reliable too. 
You are welcome to your expensive Mercs and BMWs, not for me.


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## biggs682 (14 Sep 2019)

fossyant said:


> Aye, but everyone must have one to kill the itch. The 2.0 147 Selespeed I had was great to drive, shame it was in the garage lots - fortunately a company car.



I use to work at an Alfa dealership and believe you me that was enough to kill the itch for sure


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## Drago (14 Sep 2019)

I have to say the Smart has been great!

The bodywork is plastic, won't rust. The metal structure (AKA the Tridion) is made from steel with a very high Boron content (higher than Volvo use in the rollover structures of their cars) and is powder coated, so won't rust unless you actually damage it.

The weak link on the original 450 Smarts like mine is...the Mercedes engine! Well known for hand grenading at about 60,000 miles, and while it's an easy rebuild it's a ballache. Clued up owners fit bigger radiators and oil coolers to prevent this (a previous owner has already done this to mine, so I'm lucky) but it's interesting that the bits designed by a Swiss watch manufacturer with no previous experience of car design are absolutely top drawer, but the bit designed and manufactured by a so called "prestige" car maker is the bit liable to explode at any given moment.


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## gbb (14 Sep 2019)

Electric_Andy said:


> Scotty Kilmer. I'm strangely entertained by him. He seems impartial though


Strangely entertained..I like that, I kinda feel the same, hes mildly annoying but his videos are for the most part based on long term experience and common sense.


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## gbb (14 Sep 2019)

Globalti said:


> If you go anywhere in Africa, where people will run a car until it actually breaks apart and where the terrible roads and lack of maintenance destroy everything, there's only one name: Toyota. Many trucks are very old Bedfords because they can be fixed by the roadside by a bush mechanic.


Some years ago (mid 1990s say) I worked for a company with the biggest fleet of Mercedes HGVs in the country at that time. Inevitably some became shunters as their working life came to an end then if something big went, clutch, gearbox etc, they were sold at auction and usually went to Africa. They sold for £6k each which seemed preposterous given the state of them but the fleet manager explained, they will be stripped to the last nut and bolt, everything is used in Africa to keep vehicles on the road.


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## Globalti (14 Sep 2019)

You'll see guys swarming over an old truck right in the road where it stopped, causing traffic mayhem for several days. They'll drop the sump and the crankshaft onto the road then somebody will head off on the back of a motorbike with the crankshaft on his head - yes! - then they'll rebuild it and drive off.


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## gbb (14 Sep 2019)

Globalti said:


> You'll see guys swarming over an old truck right in the road where it stopped, causing traffic mayhem for several days. They'll drop the sump and the crankshaft onto the road then somebody will head off on the back of a motorbike with the crankshaft on his head - yes! - then they'll rebuild it and drive off.


Off topic a bit...forgive me...
It's a reminder we throw stuff away far too quickly in the west.
I had a working trip to Uruguay 2007. During an installation they blew an expensive, complicated PCB on our machine. Back home this would have meant sending it back to Spain and getting it repaired. But no problem the Uruguayans said, we'll send it to Montevideo and get it repaired....and 2 days later it reappeared, working.
I took that mentality back with me and we started investigating what components were being damaged on other boards we regularly used to have fail...and usually it was a two quid component, saving hundreds of pounds compared to the way we were doing it.


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## SpokeyDokey (14 Sep 2019)

Dirk said:


> You've answered your own question.



It was a joke.


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## CharlesF (14 Sep 2019)

Diogenes said:


> Friends came to a barbecue this summer in their Alfasud, but there was a shower and we didn't get it under cover in time.
> 
> View attachment 485019



My only new car, ever, was an AlfaSud bought in Cape Town. It had started off as a standard model when half down the line some GL extras were fitted. As it was neither fish nor fowl, they were selling it really cheaply. Many years of enjoyment. Only thing wrong was the the engine smoking when new. Eventually the factory took it back and re-bored the oil passages which solved the problem. It never rusted, really, and was a joy to drive. A true story!


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## gavroche (14 Sep 2019)

I just want to go back to why Japanese cars are so reliable. I think it is part of their culture. Japanese people are very proud and honour is high on their list so making cars that are not reliable would be a big black stain on their beliefs and unforgivable. Maybe we lack a bit of that in the west and focus too much on profitability rather than pride in what we produce .


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## Drago (14 Sep 2019)

That's plausible at face value, but seeing as the bulk of "Japanese" cars aren't actually made in Japan I don't think the idea holds water.


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## gavroche (14 Sep 2019)

Drago said:


> That's plausible at face value, but seeing as the bulk of "Japanese" cars aren't actually made in Japan I don't think the idea holds water.


But they are made using Japanese manufacturing processes and quality control.


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## vickster (14 Sep 2019)

gavroche said:


> But they are made using Japanese manufacturing processes and quality control.


QC? They do seem to have a fair number of recalls though on Toyotas, Hondas


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## colly (14 Sep 2019)

Slightly off the point, Mrs Colly bought another car about 15 months ago and while we were looking round I came across a big Merc that was a 6 seater. It was too big for us but even though it wasn't that old the price was very reasonable for a car that would have been £50000 plus when it was new, possibly more.
Mentioning this to a guy I do work for who it in the motor trade he said that yes used Mercs are cheap because they have a habit of rusting. I'm not sure if that's right and it surprised me tbh but maybe that's true.


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## Pumpkin the robot (14 Sep 2019)

vickster said:


> QC? They do seem to have a fair number of recalls though on Toyotas, Hondas



Maybe that is because the Japanese find a fault and fix it, whereas everyone else just ignores it?


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## Drago (14 Sep 2019)

Pumpkin the robot said:


> Maybe that is because the Japanese find a fault and fix it, whereas everyone else just ignores it?



And when they do break the Japanese brands are more likely to take their warranties seriously. Mrs D's recently departed Kia was a good example of a manufacturer giving a 7 year warranty, then giving every excuse in the book to try not to honour it.


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## screenman (14 Sep 2019)

gavroche said:


> But they are made using Japanese manufacturing processes and quality control.



You may not have seen as many nearly new Mazda engines in bits as I have. As for recalls, let's just say enough for the Mazda garage I do work for had to employ a full time tech just for recall work.


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## CharlesF (14 Sep 2019)

Globalti said:


> If you go anywhere in Africa, where people will run a car until it actually breaks apart and where the terrible roads and lack of maintenance destroy everything, there's only one name: Toyota. Many trucks are very old Bedfords because they can be fixed by the roadside by a bush mechanic.



And Peugeot 404 in my day, a brilliant car.


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## vickster (14 Sep 2019)

Pumpkin the robot said:


> Maybe that is because the Japanese find a fault and fix it, whereas everyone else just ignores it?


But surely if the cars are so well designed and QCd before they leave the test track and factory, a fault leading to the recall of hundreds of thousands of cars already on the road shouldn’t happen...and certainly not time and time again and major faults at that

@cyberknight builds cars for Toyota, maybe he can illuminate how it still happens


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## Drago (14 Sep 2019)

This is, I'm afraid, rot.

The biggest recall of recent years for Toyota was to do with faulty airbags originating from a subcontractor. Unless every Toyota was crashed at speed into a tree while on its factory test drive they would have no manner by which the problem could be identified in advance. A quick lap of a track, 2 minutes on the rollers, and a close squint by a man in white gloves will not discover such faults.

Toyota were actually pretty reasonable in replacing millions worldwide and at great cost to themselves - the airbag manufacturer went to the wall so Toyota had no one to extract compensation from. Compare this with, say, Hotpoint, who were happy to let peoples houses burn down and still didn't issue a recall for 4 or 5 years, and who still have failed to comprehensively refund or replace affected units.


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## Joey Shabadoo (14 Sep 2019)

One reason post war German cars got a reputation for build quality was they had excellent quality control procedures - developed during the war when they had to monitor work done by slave labour and possibly sabotaged.


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## gavroche (14 Sep 2019)

In his trade ( installing wind farms offshore) , my son has worked with many German engineers and is always amazed to see that they are completely lost and don't know what to do when a fault doesn't fall within the procedure they have been told to follow.


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## vickster (14 Sep 2019)

Drago said:


> This is, I'm afraid, rot.
> 
> The biggest recall of recent years for Toyota was to do with faulty airbags originating from a subcontractor. Unless every Toyota was crashed at speed into a tree while on its factory test drive they would have no manner by which the problem could be identified in advance. A quick lap of a track, 2 minutes on the rollers, and a close squint by a man in white gloves will not discover such faults.
> 
> Toyota were actually pretty reasonable in replacing millions worldwide and at great cost to themselves - the airbag manufacturer went to the wall so Toyota had no one to extract compensation from. Compare this with, say, Hotpoint, who were happy to let peoples houses burn down and still didn't issue a recall for 4 or 5 years, and who still have failed to comprehensively refund or replace affected units.


What about all the other ones?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009–11_Toyota_vehicle_recalls


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## DCBassman (14 Sep 2019)

As someone who has an older Merc, 2004, and has delivered many newer ones up to 2016, I do prefer mine to the newer ones. And mine has the last German built MB engine**. They're all MB/Renault/Peugeot etc combines these days. Mine certainly has its problems, but I paid 4k for a car that I've had for over 6 years and covered 100,000 miles in, to a total for the car of 270,000. That's not too pricey in my eyes, and at 3.2l and 2 tonnes, it's relatively economical to boot, although the later versions improved on this considerably.

**Not the *Actual Last One...*


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## skudupnorth (14 Sep 2019)

I worked for a Merc and Brabus dealer and can definitely say the new cars were total crap compared to the likes of the 190’s, W124’s and of course the un-chaved G-Wagons ! What shocked me more were the aweful add on Brabus kits which really made the original cars look like over priced Halfords special’s


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## Drago (14 Sep 2019)

vickster said:


> What about all the other ones?
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009–11_Toyota_vehicle_recalls



What about them? The question is rather non specific.


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## vickster (14 Sep 2019)

Drago said:


> What about them? The question is rather non specific.


Were they missed by Toyota’s QC or the fault of a third party supplier too? Just interested


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## Cletus Van Damme (14 Sep 2019)

The other issue my 2017 E Class had was closing the bonnet. Granted it was a huge piece of metal. Due to the size of it, it had 2 catches one at either side instead of just one central one like most cars. To shut it, you had to slam it from a great height, and I mean SLAM. If you didn't an alarm would go off, as only one of the catches would make On the first occasion I couldn't get it to shut after numerous attempts, and suffered that alarm for 40 miles, driving me insane, thinking it must have a fault (as it's a quality Benz...). When I got to work somebody had a look and you could see it slightly moving at one side. So he just lifted it and slammed the sh1t out of it and the catch was made. It wasn't my car so that is just what I did every time I added washer fluid or oil, as it used some oil. If it was not a company car I'd be livid, then again if I had 43K to spend on car, I think that car wouldn't even get on the list...


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## gavroche (14 Sep 2019)

Cletus Van Damme said:


> The other issue my 2017 E Class had was closing the bonnet. Granted it was a huge piece of metal. Due to the size of it, it had 2 catches one at either side instead of just one central one like most cars. To shut it, you had to slam it from a great height, and I mean SLAM. If you didn't an alarm would go off, as only one of the catches would make On the first occasion I couldn't get it to shut after numerous attempts, and suffered that alarm for 40 miles, driving me insane, thinking it must have a fault (as it's a quality Benz...). When I got to work somebody had a look and you could see it slightly moving at one side. So he just lifted it and slammed the sh1t out of it and the catch was made. It wasn't my car so that is just what I did every time I added washer fluid or oil, as it used some oil. If it was not a company car I'd be livid, then again if I had 43K to spend on car, I think that car wouldn't even get on the list...


If I had £43k, I certainly wouldn't spend it on a car.


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## Pumpkin the robot (15 Sep 2019)

vickster said:


> Were they missed by Toyota’s QC or the fault of a third party supplier too? Just interested



It is not as easy as that. It is very hard to replicate the conditions that parts of any vehicle go through day to day. What may be fine in say the uk, may not be in Australia, different conditions, different roads, tarmac etc can all make one part of a car prone to wear and failure. 
Some recalls may be for a failure that has only occured once, in a one off situation that mmay never happen again, but because (for example) set the car on fire, the car will berecalled to fix the fault (Unless you are Vauxhall and need loads of heaters to set on fire before you will acknowledge there is a problem)
Car paint is tested for 7 years before it is used, so that they can do real world testing, not just accelerated wear testing. The manufacturers try to predict what will be in fashion, as although the paint can be tested, different pigments could cause a failure. now multiply that for every component and you can see why some things slip through testing.


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## Joey Shabadoo (15 Sep 2019)

There's also the degree to which the manufacturers care which is linked to money. Examples are Ford ignoring the known problems with the petrol tank in the Pinto because it would cost too much to set right. Or Dulux advertising that a paint will last 12 years "or your money back" knowing it will last 5 years tops but the cost of refunds will be less than the value of increased sales.


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## Pumpkin the robot (15 Sep 2019)

And that was the point i was trying to make, the Japanese probably care more about their product and image, so they have more recalls.

Of the top 8 cars in the what car? most reliable cars, 6 are Japanese. The other 2 are an Audi and a Seat.


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## screenman (15 Sep 2019)

gavroche said:


> If I had £43k, I certainly wouldn't spend it on a car.



But if you had £2,000,000 you might be more tempted.


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## keithmac (15 Sep 2019)

I had a go in a £90k Range rover last Sunday. 

It was a lovely car (2l Diesel with electric assist, 460bhp) BUT cost as much as our house did!.

Can't imagine having that sort of money in a car, but as screenman says it's all relative..


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## Globalti (15 Sep 2019)

No, I wouldn't waste any money on a big swinging-dick Alpha male car, new or used. I simply wouldnt want anybody to think I was such a shallow person that I needed a big car to make me look good. I once had a colleague who aspired to having a chalet on The Warren at Abersoch where, in his words: "People are nice, they drive BMWs, Mercedes, Audis and so on." He was embarrassed that his company car was a poxy little Golf and told me: "I won't be happy until I've got a Beemer on my drive." He went to tell the boss what he wanted and the boss said: "You get the same car as all the others. If you don't like it, there's the door." So my colleague walked, got himself a job at a competitor and got the BMW M Series he so craved. Subsequently he paid £95,000 for an old chalet on The Warren that was due for replacement then another £45,000 for the new chalet. What a pillock.


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## Slick (15 Sep 2019)

Globalti said:


> No, I wouldn't waste any money on a big swinging-dick Alpha male car, new or used. I simply wouldnt want anybody to think I was such a shallow person that I needed a big car to make me look good. I once had a colleague who aspired to having a chalet on The Warren at Abersoch where, in his words: "People are nice, they drive BMWs, Mercedes, Audis and so on." He was embarrassed that his company car was a poxy little Golf and told me: "I won't be happy until I've got a Beemer on my drive." He went to tell the boss what he wanted and the boss said: "You get the same car as all the others. If you don't like it, there's the door." So my colleague walked, got himself a job at a competitor and got the BMW M Series he so craved. Subsequently he paid £95,000 for an old chalet on The Warren that was due for replacement then another £45,000 for the new chalet. What a pillock.


I don't get why any of that makes him a pillock. Was it the fact he went after a better job with better perks or the fact he now has the chalet that he always wanted?


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## gavroche (15 Sep 2019)

screenman said:


> But if you had £2,000,000 you might be more tempted.


To be honest, no. I am quite happy and would be quite happy with a normal priced car. If I had that sort of money, I would help my own kids first. Very expensive cars are just a status symbol, look at me type of people. Not for me.


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## Globalti (15 Sep 2019)

I used to enjoy driving my Land Rover 90 because it made you invisible as it didn't rank anywhere in the big car hierarchy. That's the reason why the Great Train Robbers made off slowly in an old 109" Land Rover and were ignored by the Police rushing to the scene.


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## Joey Shabadoo (15 Sep 2019)

Globalti said:


> No, I wouldn't waste any money on a big swinging-dick Alpha male car, new or used. I simply wouldnt want anybody to think I was such a shallow person that I needed a big car to make me look good. I once had a colleague who aspired to having a chalet on The Warren at Abersoch where, in his words: "People are nice, they drive BMWs, Mercedes, Audis and so on." He was embarrassed that his company car was a poxy little Golf and told me: "I won't be happy until I've got a Beemer on my drive." He went to tell the boss what he wanted and the boss said: "You get the same car as all the others. If you don't like it, there's the door." So my colleague walked, got himself a job at a competitor and got the BMW M Series he so craved. Subsequently he paid £95,000 for an old chalet on The Warren that was due for replacement then another £45,000 for the new chalet. What a pillock.




I had a friend at a company I worked at for whom image was everything - Mont Blanc pen in a leather case at meetings, Versace folio case etc. We were given a budget to choose our cars from and most went for Insignias and the like (I had a great Astra Estate with a big engine and all the extras before getting a Hyundai i40). But she wanted an Audi, any Audi. Eventually she discovered she could get a bare bones A1 (or A3, I can't remember) on our budget so that's what she plumped for. It was horrible - underpowered on the motorways, uncomfortable with basic seats and with absolutely no extras - analogue radio, no aircon, no cruise control, no fog lights, no automatic anything. She loved it because she got an Audi-badged key which she made sure to leave on show at meetings.


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## screenman (15 Sep 2019)

gavroche said:


> To be honest, no. I am quite happy and would be quite happy with a normal priced car. If I had that sort of money, I would help my own kids first. Very expensive cars are just a status symbol, look at me type of people. Not for me.



To be honest unless you have that sort of money you have no idea of what you would do with it, why have a colour tv when black and white will do, why have 3 bedrooms when 1 will do, it is only willy waiving in certain peoples minds not all. I can tell you it is a lot nicer travelling in an Audi A8 than a Trabant. You have to be careful helping kids, it is possible to help them too much.


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## Moodyman (15 Sep 2019)

There are many examples of billionaires living comparatively frugal lives: the late Ingvar Kamprad, Bill Gates and Warren Buffet to name a few.

A study in the USA, identified the majority of the country's millionaires were normal people 'living next door' - i.e. you would never guess they were millionaires from their house, car, lifestyle.


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## Slick (15 Sep 2019)

Moodyman said:


> There are many examples of billionaires living comparatively frugal lives: the late Ingvar Kamprad, Bill Gates and Warren Buffet to name a few.
> 
> A study in the USA, identified the majority of the country's millionaires were normal people 'living next door' - i.e. you would never guess they were millionaires from their house, car, lifestyle.


Spot on.


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## Cycleops (15 Sep 2019)

Diogenes said:


> There's also the degree to which the manufacturers care which is linked to money. Examples are Ford ignoring the known problems with the petrol tank in the Pinto because it would cost too much to set right.


The truly shocking fact was that it was cheaper to pay compensation to victims that we're killed or maimed than to recall or put the cars right.


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## tyred (15 Sep 2019)

keithmac said:


> I had a go in a £90k Range rover last Sunday.
> 
> It was a lovely car (2l Diesel with electric assist, 460bhp) BUT cost as much as our house did!.
> 
> Can't imagine having that sort of money in a car, but as screenman says it's all relative..



460BHP? 

Jackie Stewart won 3 F1 World titles with less. I don't know what modern regulations are but when I watched rallying Group A Sierras and the like were limited to 300 BHP. 

Why on earth would anyone need a road car with 460bhp?  

Just about any mass produced car of the past 40 or 50 years (with the possible exception of the Fiat 126 and Citroen 2CV) will exceed the speed limits.


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## Dirk (15 Sep 2019)

tyred said:


> Why on earth would anyone need a road car with 460bhp?


What's 'need' got to do with it?
What car do you use?


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## Globalti (15 Sep 2019)

Willy waving again. Most of the cars on the road have far too much power and many of those have too small a brain in control.


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## vickster (15 Sep 2019)

Globalti said:


> Willy waving again. Most of the cars on the road have far too much power and many of those have too small a brain in control.



Same goes for motorbikes


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## Globalti (15 Sep 2019)

The sad irony is that as we trundle towards gridlock the only thing you need is comfortable seats and an auto gearbox to save your left leg. Oh and AC to make the jams bearable on hot days. 

Or you could take the train but my ordeal at the hands of poxy Northern Fail this morning getting back home from Leeds tells me I'd still rather take my chances with traffic .


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## tyred (15 Sep 2019)

Dirk said:


> What's 'need' got to do with it?
> What car do you use?


I have an 1100cc Peugeot.

It's modest 60bhp will get me to my destination in the same time that a 460bhp car will unless you are prepared to break a few laws. 

No doubt the 460bhp car will have all sorts of driving aids and electronics to keep the driver out of trouble and flatter him/her into believing they have the driving skills of Lewis Hamilton when quite frankly they don't.

I am not anti high performance cars and have driven and enjoyed a few in my time but the power available in some cars now is just simply too much to be used safely in a public place by unskilled drivers.


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## Pumpkin the robot (15 Sep 2019)

Globalti said:


> The sad irony is that as we trundle towards gridlock the only thing you need is comfortable seats and an auto gearbox to save your left leg. Oh and AC to make the jams bearable on hot days..



Or a bike. Motor optional.


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## screenman (15 Sep 2019)

Moodyman said:


> There are many examples of billionaires living comparatively frugal lives: the late Ingvar Kamprad, Bill Gates and Warren Buffet to name a few.
> 
> A study in the USA, identified the majority of the country's millionaires were normal people 'living next door' - i.e. you would never guess they were millionaires from their house, car, lifestyle.



There are also a lot of people who live a millionaire lifestyle who are actually skint.


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## screenman (15 Sep 2019)

Moodyman said:


> There are many examples of billionaires living comparatively frugal lives: the late Ingvar Kamprad, Bill Gates and Warren Buffet to name a few.
> 
> A study in the USA, identified the majority of the country's millionaires were normal people 'living next door' - i.e. you would never guess they were millionaires from their house, car, lifestyle.



Have you seen Bill Gates house, only worth $125,000,000. From a quick google.


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## vickster (15 Sep 2019)

screenman said:


> Have you seen Bill Gates house, only worth $125,000,000. From a quick google.


But surely that's frugal if you're worth as much as him


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## screenman (15 Sep 2019)

Moodyman said:


> There are many examples of billionaires living comparatively frugal lives: the late Ingvar Kamprad, Bill Gates and Warren Buffet to name a few.
> 
> A study in the USA, identified the majority of the country's millionaires were normal people 'living next door' - i.e. you would never guess they were millionaires from their house, car, lifestyle.



My bil is a retired dustman who happens to be close to being a millionaire, with his pension lot he likely is.


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## screenman (15 Sep 2019)

vickster said:


> But surely that's frugal if you're worth as much as him



True, we also do not know what sort of house Moodyman lives in.


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## screenman (15 Sep 2019)

tyred said:


> 460BHP?
> 
> Jackie Stewart won 3 F1 World titles with less. I don't know what modern regulations are but when I watched rallying Group A Sierras and the like were limited to 300 BHP.
> 
> ...



Most push bikes will go faster than you can make it go.


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## tyred (15 Sep 2019)

screenman said:


> Most push bikes will go faster than you can make it go.



You are 100% correct and build and spec my bikes for touring rather than speed anyway but I am unlikely to be any more of danger to the public on a top of the range road bike than I would be on a 3 speed Raleigh.

A seriously high performance car in the wrong hands is a danger to the public (although that's true of any car I know).


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## screenman (15 Sep 2019)

tyred said:


> You are 100% correct and build and spec my bikes for touring rather than speed anyway but I am unlikely to be any more of danger to the public on a top of the range road bike than I would be on a 3 speed Raleigh.
> 
> A seriously high performance car in the wrong hands is a danger to the public (although that's true of any car I know).



Is there any proof that percentage wide faster more expensive cars are likely to be involved in a collision over a lower prices smaller one? At 70 mph the £95,000 car will handle better and could well stop faster than your little Peugeot. I should add that I dislike large 4x4 cars, but I do work on and drive lots of different cars daily.


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## tyred (15 Sep 2019)

screenman said:


> Is there any proof that percentage wide faster more expensive cars are likely to be involved in a collision over a lower prices smaller one? At 70 mph the £95,000 car will handle better and could well stop faster than your little Peugeot. I should add that I dislike large 4x4 cars, but I do work on and drive lots of different cars daily.



I really couldn't say and I perfectly understand your point of view. To be honest, I would think that expensive cars will get crashed less as they are likely bought by more mature people who have the money and will respect it. But the expensive car will depreciate and potentially end up in the wrong hands one day.

I'm just thinking out loud and trying to understand what makes people think they need over 400 bhp. Unless you do track days or something it just seems an utter waste and completely excessive.


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## midlife (15 Sep 2019)

My colleague has bout a Merc as his retirement car, expecting it to last him out lol

I had a 400 plus BHP Impreza


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## Moodyman (15 Sep 2019)

Globalti said:


> Willy waving again. Most of the cars on the road have far too much power and many of those have too small a brain in control.



As someone on a car forum said when discussing the ever-increasing bhp, "having a two-foot manhood is great for bragging, but totally useless for its intended purpose".

Our towns and cities are now so congested, one wonders if cars over 150-200 bhp are necessary.


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## screenman (15 Sep 2019)

Moodyman said:


> As someone on a car forum said when discussing the ever-increasing bhp, "having a two-foot manhood is great for bragging, but totally useless for its intended purpose".
> 
> Our towns and cities are now so congested, one wonders if cars over 150-200 bhp are necessary.



Cars are seldom necessary, where do we draw the line?


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## MarkF (15 Sep 2019)

screenman said:


> My bil is a retired dustman who happens to be close to being a millionaire, with his pension lot he likely is.



Does he drive a £20k rusty 2011 Merc to deflect attention?


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## screenman (15 Sep 2019)

MarkF said:


> Does he drive a £20k rusty 2011 Merc to deflect attention?



He has never owned a car, he oddly enough was the driver for over 30 years.


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## MarkF (15 Sep 2019)

screenman said:


> He has never owned a car, he oddly enough was the driver for over 30 years.



BTW there was a Merc 2016 SLK in Skipton car park today, roof wouldn't close, ok she was on a camber but it was miles out, driver said it'd been getting worse for a while. Of course my 1992 Eunos took a swing of my arm and 3 seconds to close......


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## vickster (15 Sep 2019)

MarkF said:


> BTW there was a Merc 2016 SLK in Skipton car park today, roof wouldn't close, ok she was on a camber but it was miles out, driver said it'd been getting worse for a while. Of course my 1992 Eunos took a swing of my arm and 3 seconds to close......


Did you have a hairdresser on hand to help with your car, they being the experts on MX-5s?


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## Globalti (15 Sep 2019)

The car industry is in a serious crisis, one glance at the huge numbers of cars stockpiled at ports, in fields and on dealer forecourts will tell you that. The industry's last gasp before the elastic breaks is PCP, which allows almost any driver to drive a high performance car and has staved off the inevitable collapse. I believe PCP will be the next mis-selling scandal when people begin to realise they're locked in and the media get interested.


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## MarkF (15 Sep 2019)

vickster said:


> Did you have a hairdresser on hand to help with your car, they being the experts on MX-5s?



It's a Eunos Roadster thank you, rising in value faster than any hairdressers bouffant.


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## vickster (15 Sep 2019)

MarkF said:


> It's a Eunos Roadster thank you, rising in value faster than any hairdressers bouffant.


Up to £3.50 now?


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## MarkF (15 Sep 2019)

Globalti said:


> The car industry is in a serious crisis, one glance at the huge numbers of cars stockpiled at ports, in fields and on dealer forecourts will tell you that. The industry's last gasp before the elastic breaks is PCP, which allows almost any driver to drive a high performance car and has staved off the inevitable collapse. I believe PCP will be the next mis-selling scandal when people begin to realise they're locked in and the media get interested.



I agree, anybody can afford what they can't afford to "buy" nowadays, so BMW's, Mercs etc once the preserve of those with cash, can be "owned" by any oik, thus their perceived quality/status/USP is gone. 

It's incredibly cheap (because of the PCP deals) to buy a car in the UK used, I was browsing ads in a local paper in Alicante last week, a £5k car there might fetch £2/3k in the UK. I can buy a far better car for £2k now than I could with £2k in 1995!


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## Globalti (15 Sep 2019)

Mrs Gti inherited from her parents and decided to splash out on a nice car, used of course so as not to take the hit on the initial depreciation. Once dealers heard she wanted to pay cash and not take PCP they lost interest and had nothing to offer her. Our local dealer Adil has now been renamed Nodeal in our household.


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## screenman (15 Sep 2019)

Globalti said:


> Mrs Gti inherited from her parents and decided to splash out on a nice car, used of course so as not to take the hit on the initial depreciation. Once dealers heard she wanted to pay cash and not take PCP they lost interest and had nothing to offer her. Our local dealer Adil has now been renamed Nodeal in our household.



I think there may be more to this story, certainly the dealer would prefer you buy on finance, but none that I know would refuse to sell you a car for cash, once the checks have been put in process. Just reminded me I have some dents to play with at an Audi dealership tomorrow


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## keithmac (16 Sep 2019)

tyred said:


> 460BHP?
> 
> Jackie Stewart won 3 F1 World titles with less. I don't know what modern regulations are but when I watched rallying Group A Sierras and the like were limited to 300 BHP.
> 
> ...



To be fair I can't comment on that having a 550bhp Mitsubishi GTO Twin Turbo sat on the drive but the Rangerover was a big heavy well built car, need the oomph to move the weight.

I've ridden motorcycles with 240bhp (stock from the factory) and they are shockingly quick, pointless for 99% of riders but good pub talk!.


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## RoadRider400 (16 Sep 2019)

Unless you are buying an E class or S class, you are just paying money for a fancy badge.


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## mustang1 (17 Sep 2019)

Drago said:


> They used to be the favoured cars of dictators worldwide, from Hitler to Saddam to Mussolini to Marco's and Pinochet, bit no longer.



Eco warrior dictators drive a Mercedes Smart.


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## Pale Rider (17 Sep 2019)

mustang1 said:


> Eco warrior dictators drive a Mercedes Smart.



And the wife's gas guzzling Volvo.


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## Salty seadog (17 Sep 2019)

CharlesF said:


> Show me a rusted Alfa, I never seen one on the road!



Open goal.


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## Salty seadog (17 Sep 2019)

vickster said:


> QC? They do seem to have a fair number of recalls though on Toyotas, Hondas




Continued QC. I had my 17 year old Toyota Corolla in for a recall this week. It was to upgrade an earlier recall some 5 years ago on the passenger side airbag that they had improved on.

I'm going Japanese next time... Probably Toyota again. This one ought to give me at least another 5 years.


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## Globalti (17 Sep 2019)

MarkF said:


> I have to walk 15 mins into work (since my m/bike was stolen), it's in BD9 which is German car city. I park up my 2002 Ford and go boggle eyed as I walk past far newer VAG cars rusty as hell, it's always VAG cars that I notice. There are a lot of E46 coupes, all rusted up wings, Passats bubbled up, an V6 Audi a convertible, 05 or 06, has holes that you can poke your fingers through on both front wings, how much was that car new £35/40K, blimey!



It just strikes me that being hilly and surrounded by hills, Bradford probably gets more than its share of road salt in the winter, which would help explain the high rate of attrition from rust.


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## mustang1 (17 Sep 2019)

I know someone who buys different cars and has had a problem with every single one. Audi, problem. Toyota, yes, Toyota, continuous problems. 

I know someone else: not even a single problem from some of the most reputedly unreliable cars like range rover and Aston.

You lot are a bunch of whingers. Keep it coming!


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## fossyant (17 Sep 2019)

Pale Rider said:


> And the wife's gas guzzling Volvo.



And his guzzling Volvo - the Smart's going.


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## screenman (17 Sep 2019)

At a Audi dealership now working, the workshop does not look busy considering how many cars they sell.


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## vickster (17 Sep 2019)

fossyant said:


> And his guzzling Volvo - the Smart's going.


I think these Swedish behemoths might be electric....although of course that has to be produced as does the car in the first place...and I don’t think they make Volvos out of recycled newspaper so the environmental impact of the parts and manufacturing must be pretty significant for two large cars?!
And aren’t cars and especially SUVs the work of the devil himself??


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## stephec (17 Sep 2019)

screenman said:


> At a Audi dealership now working, the workshop does not look busy considering how many cars they sell.


Probably gone to an independent the prices they charge.


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## screenman (17 Sep 2019)

stephec said:


> Probably gone to an independent the prices they charge.



Possibly, but I doubt that high a percentage do of cars less than 3 years olf, many have service plans in place.


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## Andy in Germany (17 Sep 2019)

Interesting conversation today about Mercedes, which for us is a local company. Opinion here seems to be that they are stuck because older middle and upper managers have several years to go until retirement, and they are pretty safe from being fired because of the nature of contracts in Germany, so they've got complacent and aren't really keeping the quality and innovation in the company.

The company can't get rid of them so they can't move on.

I have no idea if this is accurate, or if it applies equally to other companies, but it was interesting bearing in mind the comments on here.


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## Globalti (17 Sep 2019)

I'd be prepared to swallow the bit about older managers because my own employer has the very same problem but I do think Mercedes have innovated, they've just done it by dumbing down their cars to mass market quality levels in an effort to hook younger European and Asian buyers. Maybe the bigger more expensive cars are better quality, I don't know.


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## fossyant (17 Sep 2019)

Dumbed down the cars, because the others rusted.... ?

Not many early 2000's E Class around..... The Bosses got E Class Company cars, I had a Nissan I bought..... Guess which car is still like new and not in a scrap yard.

The new car market is based on leases....


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## Oldfentiger (17 Sep 2019)

Globalti said:


> Maybe the bigger more expensive cars are better quality, I don't know.


On a visit to Kwikfit, they managed to reverse Mrs OFT’s C Class into another customer. The insurance company provided a replacement car for the week it took to repair the bodywork.
350 CSL.
Different animal altogether. Well put together, luxurious, smooth and fast as f**k. Couldn’t fault it tbh. Around £50K to buy one though.


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## Fab Foodie (18 Sep 2019)

Drove the latest C class in Germany a few weeks ago bit of a curate’s egg. Think they’re trying to be all things to all men from aspiring boy racer to old and failing. Their answer to the i-drive is way too complex. Handling was a bit wayward.
The A class is horrible inside.
The Alfa Guilia I had was a huuuge dissapointment, dreadful jamdling, bland interior.
Most of the big luxo 4x4 are also torrid to drive with unpleasant handling.
Golf and surprisingly to me an Astra estate were absolute joys.

Dacia Logan update: just short of 80k miles so far, averaging 58 to 60 mpg. Still comfy enough, nothing rattling or falling apart yet. Aircon died but IME this has been common on all my cars over around 60k miles. Can’t be arsed to have it fixed (regassing did not work).
Only downside now, it’s not the only one in T5 Business parking amongst the wankpanzers....I’m the only smart cheapskate in the airport!


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## stephec (18 Sep 2019)

screenman said:


> Possibly, but I doubt that high a percentage do of cars less than 3 years olf, many have service plans in place.


It still amazes me why people lash out such amounts on new cars, I've had company cars for the last twenty years and when I look at the P11D every year there's no way I'd pay that out of my own pocket.

Give me a well looked after four year old car after someone else has taken the hit on depreciation.


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## screenman (18 Sep 2019)

stephec said:


> It still amazes me why people lash out such amounts on new cars, I've had company cars for the last twenty years and when I look at the P11D every year there's no way I'd pay that out of my own pocket.
> 
> Give me a well looked after four year old car after someone else has taken the hit on depreciation.



I am with you on that one, I buy my cars direct from Motability at the end of their 3 years, what you have to consider is that a lot of vehicles are bought for company use and that 800,000 cars under 3 years old are Motability vehicles.


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## mustang1 (18 Sep 2019)

Ferraris, Lexuses and Porsches have caught fire. Iirc Ferrari and Porsche replaced the faulty parts.

You were lucky if you had a Lexus though because they got you a brand new car.


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## mustang1 (18 Sep 2019)

Do not buy a big swinging dick car. Or watch. Or clothes. Or house. Or anything. 

But do be a big swinging dick by telling everyone that you are in fact not a big swinging dick.


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## Cavalol (18 Sep 2019)

Imagine the faces on those who found their Mercedes 1.5 diesel had the engine from a Renault?

Agree with Russellzero, BMWs have become so bland these last few years. Rather than being a stand out premium brand, they all look the same pretty much and are quite dull.
I wonder if Mercedes and BMW trade on past glories or just clever advertising like VW and get people actually believing they're better than similar cars form different makers? Out of a reasonable number of cars over the years, every VW and Audi I had was absolute rubbish, really really don't see the attraction to be honest. 


(Actually own an elderly T25 thing at the moment, the scene tax boys and 'dubbers' might want to pretend they're the best thing slice bread, but they're not a patch on the old Transit Di.)


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## mustang1 (18 Sep 2019)

tyred said:


> 460BHP?
> 
> Jackie Stewart won 3 F1 World titles with less. I don't know what modern regulations are but when I watched rallying Group A Sierras and the like were limited to 300 BHP.
> 
> ...



It's not about the speed limit. It's about how you get there. 

Those 300hp cars were light and had light engines, light flywheel, stuff like that. A 300hp rally engines car is not the same as a 300hp road car. 

I see Japanese sports cars have horse power but no torque. They're a doozy to drive in comparison to the German stuff.


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## mustang1 (18 Sep 2019)

Cavalol said:


> Imagine the faces on those who found their Mercedes 1.5 diesel had the engine from a Renault?
> 
> Agree with Russellzero, BMWs have become so bland these last few years. Rather than being a stand out premium brand, they all look the same pretty much and are quite dull.
> I wonder if Mercedes and BMW trade on past glories or just clever advertising like VW and get people actually believing they're better than similar cars form different makers? Out of a reasonable number of cars over the years, every VW and Audi I had was absolute rubbish, really really don't see the attraction to be honest.
> ...



I think the same about (push) bikes. A USD10000 bike looks very similar to a USD1000 bike, save for a flashier colour scheme and deep section wheels. More dick swinging?


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## Globalti (18 Sep 2019)

Fab Foodie said:


> The A class is horrible inside.
> The Alfa Guilia I had was a huuuge dissapointment, dreadful jamdling, bland interior.
> Most of the big luxo 4x4 are also torrid to drive with unpleasant handling.
> Golf and surprisingly to me an Astra estate were absolute joys.
> !



So true on the A class - absolutely ghastly, really bling and completely impossible to understand the controls, in fact I'd say the screens are a dangerous distraction. I really hate seeing that aggressive radiator grill looming in my mirror because the car is sure to be driven by a cock.

Golf has always been a great car to drive, I had one when I lived in France 1985-87 and loved it. 

The best car for driving that we've hired in the last year of frequent trips to Scotland was the Astra, a great little car. Just behind that was the Ford Fiesta.


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## vickster (18 Sep 2019)

I can’t fault my 7 year old low mileage Fabia VRS estate


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## mustang1 (18 Sep 2019)

Andy in Germany said:


> Interesting conversation today about Mercedes, which for us is a local company. Opinion here seems to be that they are stuck because older middle and upper managers have several years to go until retirement, and they are pretty safe from being fired because of the nature of contracts in Germany, so they've got complacent and aren't really keeping the quality and innovation in the company.
> 
> The company can't get rid of them so they can't move on.
> 
> I have no idea if this is accurate, or if it applies equally to other companies, but it was interesting bearing in mind the comments on here.


I think the least "corporate" cultures company out of the big manufacturers is BMW. That's why they brought out i3/i8 models, they took a risk. 

The other companies seem very corproate-like. The Mercedes satnav says "please turn right".who the heck says please in a satnav?


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## Andy in Germany (18 Sep 2019)

mustang1 said:


> The Mercedes satnav says "please turn right".who the heck says please in a satnav?



It's subliminal conditioning, a desperate attempt to teach Mercedes drivers manners.


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## Joey Shabadoo (18 Sep 2019)

Fab Foodie said:


> Golf and surprisingly to me an Astra estate were absolute joys.



I got an Astra Estate with one company - loved it. OK, I wrote the first one off when it was just 10 days old but the replacement was great.


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## DRM (1 Oct 2019)

I was watching a YouTube video the other day where a bloke had taken a 51 plate Merc S500 to a specialist for a repair quote, the thing was rotten along the wheel arches, bottoms of all four doors, leaky diff, air springs gone etc, the quote was £8200, yesterday there was a 51 plate S320 on an industrial estate where I was working, it had clearly been abandoned and was so rusty it was literally dissolving, in all the same areas as above, these were supposed to be the top of the range for Mercedes, I shudder to think what they cost new, when I got back to the van there was a 52 plate Polo parked next to the merc, not pampered but not a bit of rust to be seen on it


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## DCBassman (5 Oct 2019)

DRM said:


> I was watching a YouTube video the other day where a bloke had taken a 51 plate Merc S500 to a specialist for a repair quote, the thing was rotten along the wheel arches, bottoms of all four doors, leaky diff, air springs gone etc, the quote was £8200, yesterday there was a 51 plate S320 on an industrial estate where I was working, it had clearly been abandoned and was so rusty it was literally dissolving, in all the same areas as above, these were supposed to be the top of the range for Mercedes, I shudder to think what they cost new, when I got back to the van there was a 52 plate Polo parked next to the merc, not pampered but not a bit of rust to be seen on it


Around that time, MB had been using inferior steel, and it came back to bite them, big time. My W211 series E Class has some rust, but acceptable for a car heading for 300,000 miles.


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