# Should Turbo miles for your years final total?



## derrick (7 Jan 2019)

This has probably been discused so many times, Let's have a poll.
I know a few people who add them to there yearly tally. But looking at there rides, on the turbo they are averaging between 19 and 20 miles an hour. But when they get on the road and ride they average between 14 and 16 miles an hour, so you would spend less time on the turbo to cover the same road miles, so obviously a lot easier on the turbo. 
Your thoughts.


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## derrick (7 Jan 2019)

This has probably been discused so many times, Let's have a poll.
I know a few people who add them to there yearly tally. But looking at there rides, on the turbo they are averaging between 19 and 20 miles an hour. But when they get on the road and ride they average between 14 and 16 miles an hour, so you would spend less time on the turbo to cover the same road miles, so obviously a lot easier on the turbo.
Your thoughts.
*Cannot edit the title, i know it's wrong but you should get the idea.*


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## Racing roadkill (7 Jan 2019)

Turbo miles are junk miles. They keep your fitness parameters up, but other than that aren’t much use for actual road riding conditioning. Should they be included in yearly totals? Why not, if it makes them happy. Riding on an actual road is as different to riding on a Turbo , as a cat is from a monkey. They are both animals, but that’s about it.


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## ianrauk (7 Jan 2019)

Turbo is time, not miles imo


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## Gary E (7 Jan 2019)

Interesting question. People use Turbos in different ways and for different reasons. Some love them, some hate them.
This could easily turn into the new Helmet thread, people will never see eye to eye on this one 
You may as well say do miles on a road bike count when it's harder to get the same speed on a Hybrid / Mountain Bike / Unicycle.


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## derrick (7 Jan 2019)

Gary E said:


> Interesting question. People use Turbos in different ways and for different reasons. Some love them, some hate them.
> This could easily turn into the new Helmet thread, people will never see eye to eye on this one
> You may as well say do miles on a road bike count when it's harder to get the same speed on a Hybrid / Mountain Bike / Unicycle.


I don't see what differance the type of bike you ride, the heavier the bike the harder it will feel. but you are moving.


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## Pumpkin the robot (7 Jan 2019)

Let them have them. Only themselves thst they are cheating.


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## Jimidh (7 Jan 2019)

So long as you measure your miles the same way every year then I didn’t see the problem.

If you are using the turbo properly then those miles are usually harder than miles on the road anyhow.


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## Racing roadkill (7 Jan 2019)

You can use a Turbo to improve certain specific bits / weaknesses, using targeted drills, but most people I know with Turbos don’t use them like this. They just sit and churn away on Zwift et.al. Then wonder why they find the first Sportives that they enter hard work.


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## bridgy (7 Jan 2019)

Racing roadkill said:


> Turbo miles are junk miles. They keep your fitness parameters up, but other than that aren’t much use for actual road riding conditioning. Should they be included in yearly totals? Why not, if it makes them happy. Riding on an actual road is as different to riding on a Turbo , as a cat is from a monkey. They are both animals, but that’s about it.


You can do junk miles on a turbo and junk miles on the road - you can also do quality training and enjoy yourself on both. 

Like most things it's about how you do it and I know several examples of people who've prepared very successfully for long, hilly rides or sportive events almost exclusively on a smart trainer connected to Zwift or Bkool etc. There's also several well known examples of pros using turbos/Zwift to successfully prepare for racing after injury or as part of their training generally - most notably Mat Hayman before his Paris Roubaix win, and Steve Cummings before his road race and TT double at the British national championships in 2017. So it certainly can be a fair bit more useful and relevant to real world cycling fitness than you suggest.

In answer to the OP's question, I guess it's up to the individual - some people almost exclusively do "virtual" miles on a turbo so they would obviously count them! But you're right that most people go faster and therefore cover more miles in a given time on Zwift etc than in the real world - I know I do - so you should take that into account when comparing with your previous years or with other people. So the answer is, it depends!


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## Venod (7 Jan 2019)

derrick said:


> so obviously a lot easier on the turbo



I have stated this loads of times, but repeating it won't do any arm.

I have ridden courses on the turbo I have ridden in real life, if its a flat course the turbo is generally quicker, but not by much, no traffic, no potholes, no distractions, no freewheeling, no headwind, no tailwind.
.
If its an hilly course all my uphill times are slower on the turbo, but downhill is usually quicker, no slowing for bends or bottling it at high speed, so the rides usually end up about the same time and average speed.

Zwift and sportives are not my thing, but I find a couple of hours on the turbo is much harder than a couple of hours on the road.

I shall continue to count turbo miles in my yearly total, its my choice ?


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## Drago (7 Jan 2019)

How can it be mileage if you haven't moved an inch?


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## fossyant (7 Jan 2019)

I include then. Given the state I am in after each session. Reason, I no longer ride on the roads (following my broken spine) and getting out mid week in the filth of MTB isnt always practical. Killing myself on Zwift is a good way to keep fit, and its certainly aided my recovery.

I only did 1250 miles last year but half was off road, half on a turbo. Off road miles are done much slower than on smooth tarmac.

Its more about hours for me, so still counts.


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## NorthernDave (7 Jan 2019)

I don't include my turbo "miles" in my annual figure, but it's individual choice and not something that I'm going to worry about.


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## Sharky (7 Jan 2019)

They are seperate metrics. Both useful to monitor progress thru the season, but not interchangeable.


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## bridgy (7 Jan 2019)

Drago said:


> How can it be mileage if you haven't moved an inch?


Because it can be recorded as "virtual" mileage - if you want


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## FishFright (7 Jan 2019)

To your exercise total - Yes
To your cycling miles - No


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## Venod (7 Jan 2019)

derrick said:


> Cannot edit the title, i know it's wrong but you should get the idea.



Click on the thread tools box, then click edit title.


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## CXRAndy (7 Jan 2019)

I do 4500 miles indoors 1500 outdoors


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## bridgy (7 Jan 2019)

derrick said:


> This has probably been discused so many times, Let's have a poll.
> I know a few people who add them to there yearly tally. But looking at there rides, on the turbo they are averaging between 19 and 20 miles an hour. But when they get on the road and ride they average between 14 and 16 miles an hour, so you would spend less time on the turbo to cover the same road miles, so obviously a lot easier on the turbo.
> Your thoughts.


I think you have two duplicated threads going on? https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/should-turbo-miles-for-your-years-final-total.244327/#post-5494199


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## fossyant (7 Jan 2019)

I know of folk who have successfully raced at national level by mainly riding on a turbo. 

Maybe i should get at least double for off road miles.


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## Ming the Merciless (7 Jan 2019)

I have done virtually a million miles


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## dan_bo (7 Jan 2019)

I count em. 

Probs cos I'm a mile grabbing strava self-gratification artist.


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## Heltor Chasca (7 Jan 2019)

All my rides are done in my imagination and added to my tally. It’s between me, myself and I. I am not aware I’m in a competition with anyone else. 

Cycling outside is my sport/recreation. Audax (which is non competitive) and utility cycling.

Riding on my turbo is for fitness and health. It makes the above easier and more enjoyable. It makes my physical job as a gardener easier too. The crossover ends there.

I have a fascination for the stats that TrainerRoad furnishes me with. And having been involved in another sport (sailing) where I competed in two world champs and several national champs, I have an interest in sport nutrition, psychology and was once very competitive. The topics discussed on the TR podcast cover all these subjects in profusion.


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## AlanW (7 Jan 2019)

Once upon a time I would have agreed that turbo miles should not count. However, with the likes of Zwift, VR films and Smart trainers my opinion has since changed.

I did a Zwift 100km "audax" on Saturday, then did a 100km road ride the next day and I know for sure which one destroyed my legs the most! Furthermore, you ride up Alp du Zwift and then tell me it didn't hurt even if you didn't move an inch!

On the flip side, should a one mile ride down to the shops and back in jeans and trainers count as a real mile?


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## Corky Cyclist (7 Jan 2019)

No......turbo time is not mileage.

Mind you I've never been one for the quantified self. All this record keeping is a tad unhealthy IMO. Personally I've been far happier since I stopped logging times and speed for my rides. I now just keep a tally of my overall mileage.


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## berty bassett (7 Jan 2019)

I include them 
I work hard on a turbo to make outdoor rides easier - if I didn’t do the turbo time I wouldn’t be able to do the road time so personally I count them - it’s a unit of measurement - I don’t go out in real world and say I have done 2 or 3 hrs , I say so many miles , it keeps the same unit


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## mangid (7 Jan 2019)

Whatever floats your boat.


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## nickAKA (7 Jan 2019)

Given a choice, I wouldn't do any miles on the turbo at all. They'd all be done outside on nice, smooth, traffic free roads at a pleasant 18 degrees, gentle breezes at my back and noon sushine up above... 
As it is, the trainer will have to do some of the time so I count them, not to earn chufty badges off strangers or impress my mates - it's merely as a comparison tool, month to month, for me. If time wasn't at a premium then maybe I'd be less bothered with logging all this info, but being time poor (like most people) it's handy to compare & assess exactly where you're at bike-fitness wise to a relevant period in the past based on time / mileage put in. The 'miles' done on zwift are always done faster IME due to not having to steer, balance, avoid other road users, sit at junctions, apply the brakes, do a stint into a headwind, not having a 6 man draft etc etc etc but they're concentrated miles. I can maintain 22mph on the flat just the same on the road as I can on zwift given the right conditions but how often does this happen IRL? Personally I find riding an hour on zwift to be far harder physically than riding an hour on the the road so I feel no shame admitting it, but it's not compulsary to count them so do whatever *you* feel comfortable with, other people's opinions are just opinions.


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## numbnuts (7 Jan 2019)

An ebike on a turbo


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## JhnBssll (7 Jan 2019)

I count them  They're not as fun as 'real' miles but in my experience they tend to hurt more


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## CXRAndy (7 Jan 2019)

I count indoor miles. Being probably worth 1.5 times outdoor mileage, they are by far the best bang for your buck.

I do all riding indoor from September--April. Unless i go to warm places for a winter break. So 4500 indoors 1500 outdoor


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## MrPie (7 Jan 2019)

If I’m putting in the effort and turning the wheels then I’m claiming the miles


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## Ming the Merciless (7 Jan 2019)

bridgy said:


> You can do junk miles on a turbo and junk miles on the road - you can also do quality training and enjoy yourself on both.
> 
> Like most things it's about how you do it and I know several examples of people who've prepared very successfully for long, hilly rides or sportive events almost exclusively on a smart trainer connected to Zwift or Bkool etc. There's also several well known examples of pros using turbos/Zwift to successfully prepare for racing after injury or as part of their training generally - most notably Mat Hayman before his Paris Roubaix win, and Steve Cummings before his road race and TT double at the British national championships in 2017. So it certainly can be a fair bit more useful and relevant to real world cycling fitness than you suggest.
> 
> In answer to the OP's question, I guess it's up to the individual - some people almost exclusively do "virtual" miles on a turbo so they would obviously count them! But you're right that most people go faster and therefore cover more miles in a given time on Zwift etc than in the real world - I know I do - so you should take that into account when comparing with your previous years or with other people. So the answer is, it depends!



Outdoor miles are never junk.


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## booze and cake (7 Jan 2019)

Poll needs an option C, the who cares option.

I think if anyone feels disbelieving, cheated or deceived by the claimed mileage of anyone, they need to get our more. Oh the irony


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## derrick (7 Jan 2019)

booze and cake said:


> Poll needs an option C, the who cares option.
> 
> If you don't care why reply?


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## Drago (7 Jan 2019)

I've been on my knees plumbing in a new bath. I'm going to claim it as time spent at prayer to earn an extra swig of the communion wine.


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## booze and cake (7 Jan 2019)

@derrick obviously to highlight that neither option provided by the poll were sufficient, and there is a third way


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## Rusty Nails (7 Jan 2019)

I remember reading an article about a TV celebrity (can't remember her name) who said that she was very keen on cycling. It turned out that she didn't have a bike but was talking about her regular spin classes.

Regularly making love to blow-up dolls does not count as having a sex life.


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## bridgy (7 Jan 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> Outdoor miles are never junk.


Well the word junk isn't one I'd use myself, I was replying to a post that used it. I have enjoyed some rides on Zwift or bkool on a turbo than some outdoor rides though. But you can't beat a good outdoor road or mountain bike ride in my opinion - keeping fit on the turbo is what helps make this possible for me though


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## derrick (7 Jan 2019)

booze and cake said:


> @derrick obviously to highlight that neither option provided by the poll were sufficient, and there is a third way


You either agree or not, my poll my rules


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## steveindenmark (8 Jan 2019)

I used to think that they shouldnt count. But its your miles not mine. My target this year is 8000km. But it is outdoor mileage as I dont have an indoor trainer. I am not interested in what mileage other people ride. It serves me no purpose.

It means I have to ride in Winter but I find that to be a huge advantage as it makes the fair weather riding so much easier. Plus the fact we are having some glorious winter days this year.

I have voted yes because it is your choice what mileage you count.


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## PaulSB (8 Jan 2019)

I voted "No" but happily accept it's an individual choice. I do believe winter road miles are much better prepartion for spring than a turbo.

I'd guess turbo work does hurt more as has been suggested by some. On the other hand I did 65 miles, 4500 feet, 14.9avg on Sunday. I think one would be hard pressed to replicate the benefits of that while pedalling in the garage for 4+ hours!!!!


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## Jimidh (8 Jan 2019)

PaulSB said:


> I voted "No" but happily accept it's an individual choice. I do believe winter road miles are much better prepartion for spring than a turbo.
> 
> I'd guess turbo work does hurt more as has been suggested by some. On the other hand I did 65 miles, 4500 feet, 14.9avg on Sunday. I think one would be hard pressed to replicate the benefits of that while pedalling in the garage for 4+ hours!!!!



I have to disagree with that - a good structured training block over the winter using a mix of turbo and out door will see your average speed increase.

My turbo sessions on trainer road are usually between 60-90 minutes with a mix of threshold, sweet spot and Vo2 max. Mix that in with a couple of outdoor rides per week and more than ready for the spring.


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## Mugshot (8 Jan 2019)

Rusty Nails said:


> I remember reading an article about a TV celebrity (can't remember her name) who said that she was very keen on cycling. It turned out that she didn't have a bike but was talking about her regular spin classes.
> 
> Regularly making love to blow-up dolls does not count as having a sex life.


Sorry to hear that Rusty 
I hope 2019 turns things round for you.


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## PaulSB (8 Jan 2019)

Jimidh said:


> I have to disagree with that - a good structured training block over the winter using a mix of turbo and out door will see your average speed increase.
> 
> My turbo sessions on trainer road are usually between 60-90 minutes with a mix of threshold, sweet spot and Vo2 max. Mix that in with a couple of outdoor rides per week and more than ready for the spring.



I'm absolutely certain a proper training winter training programme, whether indoor or outdoor, will deliver more than straightforward riding. I'm sure you're correct. I don't follow or have an interest in doing this though I do go spinning for 90 minutes twice weekly.

I had interpreted the poll as should miles on a turbo be counted as miles ridden, perhaps I was wrong to do so. In terms of riding a bike I don't think they count.


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## steveindenmark (8 Jan 2019)

If I dream Ive done the miles. Does that count?


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## AlanW (8 Jan 2019)

steveindenmark said:


> If I dream Ive done the miles. Does that count?



If its not on Strava then it didn't happen...sorry


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## JuhaL (8 Jan 2019)

I count all the virtual kilometers. I have find many times that i ride harder effort indoors than outdoors. It’s hard work for me and thats why very reality as well.


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## mustang1 (8 Jan 2019)

I roll the car window down and hold the bike with one hand while driving .I couldn't that towards my Strava miles. 

Someone once accused me of cheating but I told him it's ok coz it's not an e-bike.


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## CXRAndy (8 Jan 2019)

PaulSB said:


> I voted "No" but happily accept it's an individual choice. I do believe winter road miles are much better prepartion for spring than a turbo.
> 
> I'd guess turbo work does hurt more as has been suggested by some. On the other hand I did 65 miles, 4500 feet, 14.9avg on Sunday. I think one would be hard pressed to replicate the benefits of that while pedalling in the garage for 4+ hours!!!!



You wouldn't need to ride for 4 hours to get tbe same or more TSS score. On a turbo you never stop pedalling. Freewheeling is a natural reaction to going downhill. 

Ive done 4 hour+ rides on a turbo in group rides and clocked up 100 miles with non stop pedalling. Utterly exhausted the first time i completed one. Also ive done zone 2 for upto 4 hours. You cannot get the same intensity or TSS from outdoor. 

That doesn't mean outdoor isnt pleasurable. I just use indoor to build fitness for outdoors. BTW I love indoor training


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## JuhaL (8 Jan 2019)

CXRAndy said:


> That doesn't mean outdoor isnt pleasurable. I just use indoor to build fitness for outdoors. BTW I love indoor training


That’s why here is many threads involved about indoor cycling, can’t be all bad hobby.


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## Venod (8 Jan 2019)

JuhaL said:


> That’s why here is many threads involved about indoor cycling, can’t be all bad hobby.



My 28.48 mile Turbo ride from this morning, very enjoyable even though I didn't leave the house.


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## derrick (8 Jan 2019)

CXRAndy said:


> You cannot get the same intensity or TSS from outdoor.


You really need to try harder on the road.


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## JuhaL (8 Jan 2019)

Afnug said:


> My 28.48 mile Turbo ride from this morning, very enjoyable even though I didn't leave the house.
> 
> 
> View attachment 446241


In december i ride almost 600 miles indoor, pretty close what i ride outdoors too. After i bought Elite Drivo 2 indoor training feels now much more realistic as it use to.


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## Rusty Nails (8 Jan 2019)

Mugshot said:


> Sorry to hear that Rusty
> I hope 2019 turns things round for you.



A blow-up doll would be a success for me.


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## Mugshot (8 Jan 2019)

Rusty Nails said:


> A blow-up doll would be a success for me.


At least you consider it making love, you old romantic


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## Ming the Merciless (8 Jan 2019)

Afnug said:


> My 28.48 mile Turbo ride from this morning, very enjoyable even though I didn't leave the house.
> 
> 
> View attachment 446241



Ended just before Mizen Head. Real thing is much better though you won't have the rough roads or winds or rain on your turbo.


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## JuhaL (8 Jan 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> Ended just before Mizen Head. Real thing is much better though you won't have the rough roads or winds or rain on your turbo.


Bkool Simulator wind conditions. With head wind resistance unit brakes and tail wind it loosens. You can clearly feel it but not for sure how realistic it is.


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## Venod (8 Jan 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> Ended just before Mizen Head. Real thing is much better though



I can't argue with that, I have driven (not cycled) up the west coast to Connemara, it was a memorable drive.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (8 Jan 2019)

I look at distance on Zwift because I know that if I choose my favourite course on Watopia(or anywhere), it's a measured mileage and it's the same every ride. I know where the ascents are and where I can rest, in the exact same way as a road ride I know where the first climb is because 1)I know the area,fs I've lived here 30+years and 2)Garmin

It(mileage) shouldn't count on totals, definitely shouldn't(and doesn't) count on Strava challenges unless specific to an indoor challenge, which Strava isn't really about.


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## CXRAndy (8 Jan 2019)

I thought Strava recently now accepted indoor mileage for challenge s whether outdoor or indoor


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## Milzy (8 Jan 2019)

If you use something realistic like a TacX Neo chances are the turbo miles will be harder than outside. Why not count it all together?


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (8 Jan 2019)

CXRAndy said:


> I thought Strava recently now accepted indoor mileage for challenge s whether outdoor or indoor


There was something about partner challenges but otherwise


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## Ming the Merciless (8 Jan 2019)

JuhaL said:


> Bkool Simulator wind conditions. With head wind resistance unit brakes and tail wind it loosens. You can clearly feel it but not for sure how realistic it is.



So it brakes and loosens all the time and sways your bike from side to side whilst spraying water over you. Cool.


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## huwsparky (9 Jan 2019)

CXRAndy said:


> I do 4500 miles indoors 1500 outdoors


Ah, that's where you're wrong. You may well do 1500miles outdoors but you don't indoors because you don't go anywhere.

Indoors, that's all that really matters is time and intensity. No one ever says they jumped on a spin bike and did 20 miles, being on a trainer on zwift or whatever is no different. They are both effectively static training bikes.

You may have a self justification thing going on but that doesn't change what's fact.


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## Drago (10 Jan 2019)

Let them do what they want. My personal view as it applies to me is no - it's a very similar activity in many ways, but it is simply not riding a bicycle. If another user views it differently then fair play to them.


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## fossyant (10 Jan 2019)

Its 50/50 so far for me in 2019 with regards time, slightly more miles on Zwift. I'm equally as knackered getting off Zwift as MTB. My back won't sustain all off road miles and as Im out at work 11 hours a day, Zwift is ideal for keeping fit for the fun stuff.

Those of us who are time stretched, and have permanent injuries, its the only option. 3 years ago i may have said something different, but a life changing injury from a stupid driver has changed that.

Turbo miles keep me away from becoming an eMTBer. I've suffered loads to get my fitness back and I won't ever get an eMTB unless i have some other serious condition. My spine has physically healed, although missing half the L1, but its the pain thats the issue. I just have to put up with it. MTB jets excruciating after an hour, but road bike position is impossible, especially with the vibration (hence a full sus MTB). At least there are no vibrations on a turbo.

I'd say try a race or fast group ride on Zwift, then decide. It's torture.


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## bridgy (10 Jan 2019)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> There was something about partner challenges but otherwise
> View attachment 446322


Partner challenges can choose whether or not to include indoor virtual miles for any challenge - so can potentially be a mix of indoor and outdoor miles. Currently challenges set up by Zwift themselves don't include virtual miles


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## Pat "5mph" (10 Jan 2019)

Mod Note:
I've just noticed there were two of the same threads running, merged now.


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## Dan B (10 Jan 2019)

Drago said:


> How can it be mileage if you haven't moved an inch?


By that argument, no session on a velodrome banked track can count for more than about 100m, because that's the furthest you'll ever get from the start line


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## bridgy (10 Jan 2019)

huwsparky said:


> Ah, that's where you're wrong. You may well do 1500miles outdoors but you don't indoors because you don't go anywhere.
> 
> Indoors, that's all that really matters is time and intensity. No one ever says they jumped on a spin bike and did 20 miles, being on a trainer on zwift or whatever is no different. They are both effectively static training bikes.
> 
> You may have a self justification thing going on but that doesn't change what's fact.


Have you ridden a bike connected to a good smart trainer on Zwift or similar software?


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## Venod (10 Jan 2019)

Following the thread merge the poll results are very different, perhaps we need to merge the 2016 vote with the 1972 one to solve the Brexit conundrum.


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## Ming the Merciless (10 Jan 2019)

Milzy said:


> If you use something realistic like a TacX Neo chances are the turbo miles will be harder than outside. Why not count it all together?



Much harder when it is cold and wet outside.


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## lazybloke (10 Jan 2019)

I don't doubt that Zwift (and other indoor training thingummies) are an excellent form of exercise. Especially if you're a bit sensitive to the cold.

I'm just trying to think of all the factors that have to be simulated to make the effort comparable to a real bike. Even if drivetrain losses and rear wheel rolling resistance are identical that still leaves: 

- aerodynamic drag dependent on your "tuck"
- front tyre rolling resistance 
- climbs and descents
- inertia / kinetic energy
- drafting

I can see how a combination of hardware and software can simulate these. Flywheels and variable resistance, computer control, kinect sensors to assess tuck, a motor for downhill acceleration. 

But from what I read in reviews, the simulation is limited both in range and granularity. OF course it only has to be _good enough,_ and I can see that the correct software could be a brilliant training tool for professional cyclists. 

Does it count towards annual mileage? Don't see why not if the modelling makes the energy expenditure comparable to a real bike, but it seems a weak substitute for the joy of being out in the real world.


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## CXRAndy (10 Jan 2019)

lazybloke said:


> I don't doubt that Zwift (and other indoor training thingummies) are an excellent form of exercise. Especially if you're a bit sensitive to the cold.
> 
> I'm just trying to think of all the factors that have to be simulated to make the effort comparable to a real bike. Even if drivetrain losses and rear wheel rolling resistance are identical that still leaves:
> 
> ...



I took up indoor cycling/training as a way to recovery from an accident. I took to it instantly. It initially offered an environment, where I could concentrate on my recovery. When I began to get stronger, I wanted more, so I improved the display from laptop to large monitor, also changing training platforms from BKool to Zwift. Riding indoor was still a static affair, until last year when the simple but easy to construct rocker boards started to appear. These allowed side to side motion, relieving static contact points allowing 1-2 hour rides into 3-4 hour sessions. Recently you can also get a device which allows the bikes forks to be elevated or lowered with the gradient changes within the Zwift software- even more comfortable added realism. More recently forward/rear motion has been added to rocker boards, complimenting the natural feel of outdoor riding. The setups now are so close that indoor training is booming in popularity. It's a fantastic environment to keep/ build fitness in safe, easy to go setup at anytime


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## Venod (10 Jan 2019)

I wonder if he will count these.

http://fal.cn/rGZy


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## berty bassett (11 Jan 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> Much harder when it is cold and wet outside.


i wouldn't have said harder when cold and wet - just not fun ! headwind i will admit is hard , but on a circular route you get tail wind somewhere - hopefully .
given the choice of going out in cold and wet , more than likely in the dark for me at this time of year , being blinded by car lights and not knowing if the next puddle is concealing a foot deep pot hole , getting soaked and froze and then having to clean bike , doing your bike no favours with the grit mud and salt 
OR running to the shed , turning the music on , racing with 1000 + at full tilt ( i wouldn't have thought advisable through cold and wet on road) , even on the coldest of nights it is shirt off door open fan on and heart rate damn near at max so i know i am definitely working harder 
i will agree it improves road skills on the road but its not harder just because its cold - and i didn't even mention ice !


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## huwsparky (11 Jan 2019)

bridgy said:


> Have you ridden a bike connected to a good smart trainer on Zwift or similar software?


Yes, I'm currently cycling about 6 hours a week on an elite direct drive trainer. Why you ask?


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## huwsparky (11 Jan 2019)

Dogtrousers said:


> Hmmm. Most of my routes are circular, ending up where they started. That means that when I go out for a ride I actually don't go anywhere. How depressing. That's just invalidated all my accumulated distance.


Oh dear....


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## CXRAndy (11 Jan 2019)

huwsparky said:


> Ah, that's where you're wrong. You may well do 1500miles outdoors but you don't indoors because you don't go anywhere.
> 
> Indoors, that's all that really matters is time and intensity. No one ever says they jumped on a spin bike and did 20 miles, being on a trainer on zwift or whatever is no different. They are both effectively static training bikes.
> 
> You may have a self justification thing going on but that doesn't change what's fact.



Ive nothing to justify. Pedals turns, chain rotates, to an accurate device which counts, miles, km or whatever your preferred measurement is. I actually prefer time/TSS score. Sometimes average power. Seen as most outdoor riding is measured in distance or time. Its just easier to talk to those who derive benefits and enjoyment from indoor training in those facts. We could talk in calories burnt, time at threshold.


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## johnblack (11 Jan 2019)

I use a spin bike for most of my indoor training, it only registers time, cadence and power and at this time of year I probably spend more time on that than outdoors, so I'm in the "it doesn't count" corner.


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## JuhaL (11 Jan 2019)

For me indoor cycling or should i say indoor training is real cycling enough and it's a gods bless to me because Finlands winter is too cold for outdoor rides to me. Some says there is no head wind, there is no tail wind either so calm weather is a good compromise. But do we know is there differnt kind of physics simulate for example in Zwift, something like density of air etc... At least something is calculate, riders weight matters, who knows maybe height as well, but do we know. Maybe we should ask from Team Zwift what element of physics is simulated.


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## fossyant (11 Jan 2019)

From Saturday to Wednesday I did about 90 miles. 45 off road, 45 on the turbo. That equated in time to about 4 hours off road, and two hours on the turbo. I use 'hours' on strava as an indication of the amount of time I'm training/keeping fit.

If folk are getting upset about 'indoor miles' then those of us doing 'off road' miles should get at least 'double' ! 

Hence 'time' is the best measurement. I have routes that are a killer 2 hours on the bike, are just 10 miles long, but climb 2500ft - but it's off road.


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## Sharky (11 Jan 2019)

Combine or keep separately, doesn't really matter, but when you look back over a season and reflect on the effectiveness of training routines to achieve PB's etc, it is probably better to keep the data separate. Along side the cycling, you might include records of gym work, swimming, walking or jogging and year on year you may want to tweak the balance of each activity. You might also want to include the number/frequency of rest days in your stats as well, especially in the days leading up to significant events.


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## Milkfloat (11 Jan 2019)

Power or TSS would be the closest to a global measurement of effort I think. Time is as meaningless as miles.


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## bridgy (11 Jan 2019)

huwsparky said:


> Yes, I'm currently cycling about 6 hours a week on an elite direct drive trainer. Why you ask?


Because you seemed to be comparing this with spin bikes, and I've done spinning as well as Zwift/Bkool on a Smart trainer and I find them very different. The whole point of smart trainers/Zwift is to replicate reality as much as possible with regards how your power relates to speed on a virtual road, and to adjust resistance to match the terrain etc - as you know. Spin bikes don't do this, or try to do this, so yes recording "mileage" done in a spin class for example would be a bit pointless and I wouldn't do this personally. Different thing to what we're talking about.

Obviously not the case with you, but I get the impression some people arguing against counting turbo miles are imagining spin bikes or spinning away on a dumb turbo trainer staring at a wall, rather than the much more realistic (both in terms of feel and measurement of virtual distance travelled) smart trainer/Zwift set up that I think most if not all people arguing they should be counted, are talking about.


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## huwsparky (11 Jan 2019)

CXRAndy said:


> Ive nothing to justify. Pedals turns, chain rotates, to an accurate device which counts, miles, km or whatever your preferred measurement is. I actually prefer time/TSS score. Sometimes average power. Seen as most outdoor riding is measured in distance or time. Its just easier to talk to those who derive benefits and enjoyment from indoor training in those facts. We could talk in calories burnt, time at threshold.
> 
> *Insult edited out - Mods*


Well, we are in agreement then. That's all really there is to go off indoors is time and intensity or TSS.

Of course I see riding a bike as cycling, when have I said other wise. You're a bit confused old boy.

Oh, and thanks for the insult, real classy guy you must be


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## fossyant (11 Jan 2019)

Now now kids !!


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## huwsparky (11 Jan 2019)

bridgy said:


> Because you seemed to be comparing this with spin bikes, and I've done spinning as well as Zwift/Bkool on a Smart trainer and I find them very different. The whole point of smart trainers/Zwift is to replicate reality as much as possible with regards how your power relates to speed on a virtual road, and to adjust resistance to match the terrain etc - as you know. Spin bikes don't do this, or try to do this, so yes recording "mileage" done in a spin class for example would be a bit pointless and I wouldn't do this personally. Different thing to what we're talking about.
> 
> Obviously not the case with you, but I get the impression some people arguing against counting turbo miles are imagining spin bikes or spinning away on a dumb turbo trainer staring at a wall, rather than the much more realistic (both in terms of feel and measurement of virtual distance travelled) smart trainer/Zwift set up that I think most if not all people arguing they should be counted, are talking about.


I occasionally use a spin bike and a Wattbike weekly too. Riding on zwift doesnt make me think automatically I should be counting milage just because I can. I'm just saying why I don't count milage on a static bike and why. That's what we're talking about here right....?


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## bridgy (11 Jan 2019)

huwsparky said:


> I occasionally use a spin bike and a Wattbike weekly too. Riding on zwift doesnt make me think automatically I should be counting milage just because I can. I'm just saying why I don't count milage on a static bike and why. That's what we're talking about here right....?


Well, to be fair you have gone a bit further than "just" saying that when you quite confidently said @CXRAndy was "wrong" to count his turbo miles.

And whilst everyone I've seen on here saying they do count turbo miles are meaning Zwift (or similar) miles on a smart trainer, you've brought up spin bikes which I don't think we were talking about actually (as I explained in my last post). To be clear, I can see a good reason why people might include Zwift miles on a smart turbo trainer, but I wouldn't lump in ANY form of static or spin bike to that (I don't even know how spinning sessions would calculate or record "miles" to be honest?)

I don't actually think about adding Zwift miles to my personal total by the way, it's just done automatically by Strava which I use to log all my rides - although you can easily split them out as they're recorded as virtual rides. It's then just data, to be used by people however it best suits them personally. Of course miles done on a turbo aren't the same as those done on the road, but then neither are miles done on a mountain bike. But if different types of miles make up your annual total and that means something to you then I don't see the problem.

That's just fine if you don't want to count miles you do on Zwift. I don't think you're wrong to not include them for yourself, but I do think you're wrong to tell other people they're wrong to do so.


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## Milkfloat (11 Jan 2019)

Just to confuse people - in my own mileage, I count my Zwift miles, but not my commuting miles, because I cannot be arsed to use my garmin and I ride in street clothes.


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## Salty seadog (11 Jan 2019)

Gary E said:


> Interesting question. People use Turbos in different ways and for different reasons. Some love them, some hate them.
> This could easily turn into the new Helmet thread, people will never see eye to eye on this one
> You may as well say do miles on a road bike count when it's harder to get the same speed on a Hybrid / Mountain Bike / Unicycle.




I see turbos as I see gyms, gyms bore me to tears and so would a turbo. I'd much rather have a game of squash, tennis, swim or go for a real world ride. I get no enjoyment from faking a sport.


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## CXRAndy (11 Jan 2019)




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## bridgy (11 Jan 2019)

Salty seadog said:


> I see turbos as I see gyms, gyms bore me to tears and so would a turbo. I'd much rather have a game of squash, tennis, swim or go for a real world ride. I get no enjoyment from faking a sport.


"Faking a sport"?? 

So what's your definition of a "real" non-fake sport then? Surely all sports are just a set of made up rules - they can be whatever you want


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## Salty seadog (11 Jan 2019)

bridgy said:


> "Faking a sport"??
> 
> So what's your definition of a "real" non-fake sport then? Surely all sports are just a set of made up rules - they can be whatever you want



Quick question, would you count turbo miles towards your seasons total?


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## Ming the Merciless (11 Jan 2019)

Cycling as a sport is a very small sub section of cycling. Vast majority of cycling going on has nowt to do with sport.


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## bridgy (11 Jan 2019)

Salty seadog said:


> Quick question, would you count turbo miles towards your seasons total?


When looking at my own stats on strava I take note of my total miles including virtual ones done on Zwift on the turbo yes - but I also look at the mix of virtual, road and mountain bike miles plus the time spent riding and the number of rides. 

If someone asked me (they never have!) I'd probably tell them the total but also what proportion of them that were done on the turbo - or at least point out that total included turbo miles


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## huwsparky (11 Jan 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> Cycling as a sport is a very small sub section of cycling. Vast majority of cycling going on has nowt to do with sport.


Yep, a very small percentage of people that cycle world consider it a sport, I agree.


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## Rusty Nails (11 Jan 2019)

Miles indoor are as real as miles on Sufferlandria.

I really thought the person who told me about that was pulling my plonker about the Knights of Sufferlandria, until I looked at the website. Is it popular in the UK or just a US thing?

Indoor cycling is a valid exercise and training activity that can compare effort to cycling, and use similar muscles, but it is not cycling any more than a gym stepper is climbing stairs or a rowing machine is going down the Thames.


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## Salty seadog (11 Jan 2019)

bridgy said:


> When looking at my own stats on strava I take note of my total miles including virtual ones done on Zwift on the turbo yes - but I also look at the mix of virtual, road and mountain bike miles plus the time spent riding and the number of rides.
> 
> If someone asked me (they never have!) I'd probably tell them the total but also what proportion of them that were done on the turbo - or at least point out that total included turbo miles



OK precious.....


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## bridgy (11 Jan 2019)

Salty seadog said:


> OK precious.....


Eh??


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## Salty seadog (11 Jan 2019)

bridgy said:


> Eh??



they shouldn't count.


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## bridgy (11 Jan 2019)

Salty seadog said:


> they shouldn't count.


Whatever 

Brilliantly articulated argument by the way - really persuasive


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## Salty seadog (11 Jan 2019)

bridgy said:


> Whatever
> 
> Brilliantly articulated argument by the way - really persuasive



Thank you.
Despite the fact they are not real miles.without real world conditions. If you want to count them then go ahead, just be sure to tell everyone that you have done it and separate them from road miles. just to be honest about it as some have differing opinions about their real world mileage .


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## Ming the Merciless (11 Jan 2019)

Milkfloat said:


> Just to confuse people - in my own mileage, I count my Zwift miles, but not my commuting miles, because I cannot be arsed to use my garmin and I ride in street clothes.



I am sure you know your commuting distance or at least the shortest version of it you do. Commutes are easy to add up provided you consistently commute by bike.


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## Salty seadog (12 Jan 2019)

bridgy said:


> Whatever
> 
> Brilliantly articulated argument by the way - really persuasive



they count in the exercise regime just not to suggest you have ridden more than you have.


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## berty bassett (12 Jan 2019)

i thought this started by the question of . do you count turbo miles or not 
me and a few others have said yes and offered reasons why we think this 
i would never have thought there would be people on here who felt so strong that figures only i see unless someone actually goes out their way to check strava would openly argue that i shouldn't ! 
i explained why i do include mine pages back , but never did i dream of saying you are totally wrong for not including yours 
my bike , my rules , my miles and my strava in my house and i don't wear a helmet !
i care not one jot what your thoughts are on my miles and i really don't concern myself with how many miles others do 
think this thread has about ran its course when then only answer is to say others are wrong because they don't think the same as you 
wish you many miles and a happy new year


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## Milkfloat (12 Jan 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> I am sure you know your commuting distance or at least the shortest version of it you do. Commutes are easy to add up provided you consistently commute by bike.



If it ain’t on Strava .......


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## Venod (12 Jan 2019)

berty bassett said:


> i thought this started by the question of . do you count turbo miles or not
> me and a few others have said yes and offered reasons why we think this
> i would never have thought there would be people on here who felt so strong that figures only i see unless someone actually goes out their way to check strava would openly argue that i shouldn't !
> i explained why i do include mine pages back , but never did i dream of saying you are totally wrong for not including yours
> ...



My thoughts exactly.



Salty seadog said:


> If you want to count them then go ahead, just be sure to tell everyone that you have done it and separate them from road miles.



See above post from berty basset.


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## Ming the Merciless (12 Jan 2019)

Milkfloat said:


> If it ain’t on Strava .......



Doesn't have to be. You are keeping a record for yourself not others.


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## rogerzilla (12 Jan 2019)

I don't keep mileage records; you're only as good as your next ride!

I don't think turbo miles should count. You're not dealing with the wind, rain, hills or errant car drivers.


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## CXRAndy (12 Jan 2019)

Salty seadog said:


> If you want to count them then go ahead, just be sure to tell everyone that you have done it and separate them from road miles



Why?
miles are miles, has someone shortened them? 
Outdoor miles are not the sacred and shall not be contaminated with indoor miles. 

I would never suggest those who commute or cycle leisurely are not adding up mileage compared those who train hard to build fitness on the road. Same goes for indoor mileage or outdoor. Its just a measurement by which Strava indicates how much time you've spent on a bike. If Strava and alike swapped their primary measuring stick for TSS, would you then argue outdoor TSS is only to be counted?




Salty seadog said:


> they count in the exercise regime just not to suggest you have ridden more than you have.



I count them as part of my total. Most people who ask me how is my cycling are non cyclists and understand instantly mileage, I then go onto describe my training involves mostly indoor work, by which point most have glazed over  My cycling buddies are overall impressed by the hours of time I ride indoors to their outdoor. When we meet up for sportives, tours, we are all pretty much fit as each other. Its just we all do it slightly differently.

Wow, I managed to complete a post and not say 'Door handle'


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## Salty seadog (12 Jan 2019)

CXRAndy said:


> Why?
> miles are miles, has someone shortened them?
> Outdoor miles are not the sacred and shall not be contaminated with indoor miles.
> 
> ...



....and you are free to. I wouldn't.


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## iandg (12 Jan 2019)

I don't use a turbo but used to use rollers. I logged minutes then rather than miles. Not sure how you can claim to cover any distance (or even elevation) on a stationary bike?


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## Venod (12 Jan 2019)

wicker man said:


> I don't use a turbo but used to use rollers. I logged minutes then rather than miles. Not sure how you can claim to cover any distance (or even elevation) when you don't move.



Have a go on a smart turbo and see what you think, they are not for everybody, but I for one am a convert, I found the old dumb turbos a form of self inflicted torture but am happy for a couple of hours or more on the new smart one's.

Here is an old post of mine, and I did log the miles.

https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/lejog-on-the-turbo.215976/


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## berty bassett (12 Jan 2019)

If I wanted to do an outdoor ride that was a tough 100 miles I can try a tough 100 miles on turbo to train . I can’t measure it in hours as I don’t know how long it will take , I don’t have pm on bike so pointless measuring in Watts - miles is a common unit and I know what is harder between turbo 100 and outdoor 100 , some don’t .
I include my evening rides through summer even though I get on and off my bike at the same point , I include downhill coasting , drafting behind others and wind assisted miles
Saying turbo miles are not hard can only come from someone who has never tried doing hard turbo miles . The brvr rides and alpe on Zwift are very very close to the real thing effort wise . The Zwift alpe and alpe d huez are suppose to be the same , I have tried them both and the times have been within minutes of each other
Rollers are a different beast , although I still count the miles on them I can see why others would be concentrating on watts and time , as well as trying to stay upright
If it makes any difference - I don’t know how many miles I did at all last year as I haven’t checked - they have gone and it’s a new year , I had a goal and did it but didn’t bother to see what final total was - that’s how much it should matter in my eyes


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## Rusty Nails (12 Jan 2019)

CXRAndy said:


> Why?
> *miles* *are* *miles*, has someone shortened them?
> Outdoor miles are not the sacred and shall not be contaminated with indoor miles.
> 
> ...



Exactly! And not one of them is done indoors, unless you are on a cycle track.

I am not criticising turbo 'miles' as a training tool as I know they can be a lot harder than real, outdoor cycling.


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## bridgy (12 Jan 2019)

rogerzilla said:


> I don't keep mileage records; you're only as good as your next ride!
> 
> I don't think turbo miles should count. You're not dealing with the wind, rain, hills or errant car drivers.


You do deal with hills on a smart trainer on Zwift or similar - the resistance changes with the terrain on the map you're riding. So by your logic miles done on still summer days off road shouldn't count either?


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## Pumpkin the robot (12 Jan 2019)

If indoor miles are so much harder, why are they faster? Surely if you are slower outdoors for the same effort, taking into account the wind etc outdooor miles are harder?


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## SpokeyDokey (12 Jan 2019)

Re: original question.

My first instinct was to say no - and I don't count mine as an aside.

But then I thought; if you 'drove' a car on a rolling road then you are putting miles (not sure if that's the right term) on the engine and drive-train so I'm now answering with a reluctant yes.

Although I don't think it would be in the spirit of things if static trainers were used on the various annual challenges on CC.


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## Ming the Merciless (12 Jan 2019)

We seem to be heading to "Are miles on a turbo equivalent to outdoor miles where you go somewhere , and if so, in what way?"


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## JuhaL (12 Jan 2019)

Maybe we don't need a thing indoor training as a ride like it sounds in this threat, i think it's better think as a simple training as it usually is. I am just too lazy separate indoor and outdoor cycling/training so i coun't them all together and it doesn't bother me.


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## Venod (12 Jan 2019)

Pumpkin the robot said:


> If indoor miles are so much harder, why are they faster? Surely if you are slower outdoors for the same effort, taking into account the wind etc outdooor miles are harder?



From this statement I guess you haven't tried one of the new generation of turbo trainers.

I doubt I manage to produce the same effort outside as indoors too many variants, traffic, wind (assistance as well as head) road junctions, freewheeling, road surface, distractions.

Anyway I am starting to repeat myself, see post #11


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## Milkfloat (12 Jan 2019)

Pumpkin the robot said:


> If indoor miles are so much harder, why are they faster? Surely if you are slower outdoors for the same effort, taking into account the wind etc outdooor miles are harder?



Actually when I am riding to exhaustion (a TT) my speed is pretty much the same as on Zwift when I am doing the same. A Sunday ride, even a club run is less effort than an indoor training ride done properly. I think that subconsciously outside I always hold a little in reserve to make sure I can get home, on a trainer I am already home so can give it my all safe in the knowledge that I can just stop and collapse,


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## CXRAndy (12 Jan 2019)

Pumpkin the robot said:


> If indoor miles are so much harder, why are they faster? Surely if you are slower outdoors for the same effort, taking into account the wind etc outdooor miles are harder?



There are a few parameters to bear in mind. The likes of Zwift, use wind simulation in their algorithm for speed based on power, weight, and size of rider. The wind speed is set at zero. I know when on a flat smooth road with no wind I cruise along at 20-22mph. That is about the same speed I attain within Zwift with my Tacx Neo 2. 

Indoor can be easier if you ride it that way. The better ride intensity comes from not needing to stop pedalling whilst cornering, stopping for junctions or any other interference on the road . I tried alot of zone 2 riding last autumn. I never thought pedalling non stop of 3.5hours could be so hard. It took a fair amount of determination physically to finish well in good form


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## bridgy (12 Jan 2019)

Pumpkin the robot said:


> If indoor miles are so much harder, why are they faster? Surely if you are slower outdoors for the same effort, taking into account the wind etc outdooor miles are harder?


Personally I wouldn't say outdoor miles are always easier - depends on terrain, weather etc. But most of my miles on Zwift are racing at or near 100% effort whilst outdoor riding generally isn't. The things @Afnug has mentioned can slow you down outside such as road conditions traffic freewheeling when slowing for corners, junctions etc. don't happen on Zwift so you tend to go a bit faster overall . But the absence of those things also means you work harder because you're never having to back off or freewheel at all


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## iandg (12 Jan 2019)

Afnug said:


> Have a go on a smart turbo and see what you think, they are not for everybody, but I for one am a convert, I found the old dumb turbos a form of self inflicted torture but am happy for a couple of hours or more on the new smart one's.
> 
> Here is an old post of mine, and I did log the miles.
> 
> https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/lejog-on-the-turbo.215976/



Sometime, when I get the chance I would love to but at my age I won't buy one (unless something happens that I can no longer ride outdoors). I'm fortunate that I can pick and choose when I go out. If I was trying to fit in training around a full time job I think it would be different.

I know what you mean about the original turbos, I had a fan resistance model many years ago and ditched it for rollers


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## Ming the Merciless (13 Jan 2019)

Pumpkin the robot said:


> If indoor miles are so much harder, why are they faster? Surely if you are slower outdoors for the same effort, taking into account the wind etc outdooor miles are harder?



Because the whole point of the turbo is to be able to ramp up the intensity in a safe environment. Think of your turbo sessions as an all out 100m sprint whilst your outdoor rides are more of a marathon. No one runs marathons at 100m pace. On flat sections of road with a good surface and no traffic or junctions my all out speed and heart rate are pretty close to my all out speed on the turbo. Of course out on real roads it rarely stays flat for long, and you often brake and freewheel. On the turbo there is no braking, no freewheeling, and no distractions. The nearest match to turbo intensity outdoors is when tackling up hills in the higher gears.

If you were measuring how difficult each is purely based on the intensity it would be the turbo (outside of proper short races and TTs). But the difficulty of outdoor rides is about much more than just intensity, and are often far longer than turbo sessions.


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## Pumpkin the robot (13 Jan 2019)

I managed to get under a 20 minute 10 a few times back in the day without doing any indoor training, so you can actually train on the roads quite effectively. I guess I am/was lucky to have all sorts of different gradients of long and short length to train on locally if I felt the need. (I do not anymore, my racing days are well in the past due to age and injuries)
I am just making a point that everyone I know that ride indoors (these are not very good physical specimans, and neither am I anymore) do not have the same pace when pushed, even if they are sat on my wheel, they cannot maintain 18+mph for an hour, where as they can easily do 20mph+ average on their indoor trainer.
Personally, I would ride outside on any given day as I am not that bothered about improving myself beyond what I am now.


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## HLaB (13 Jan 2019)

Virtual miles shouldn't be mixed with outdoors IMO. By all means count them but keep them separate. 

FWIW I don't count them as I think they are fairly meaningless. For instance on my current heavily damped turbo I can sprint at 17-19mph but on my older magnetic turbo the same sprint would see me at a theoretical 56mph. 
Similarly on the rollers I can fairly easily do a 20min theoretical 10 miles but my best 10miles TT on the road is only 23:57. 
Indoor trainers have their purpose but don't treat them the same as outdoors.


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## derrick (13 Jan 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> Because the whole point of the turbo is to be able to ramp up the intensity in a safe environment. Think of your turbo sessions as an all out 100m sprint whilst your outdoor rides are more of a marathon. No one runs marathons at 100m pace. On flat sections of road with a good surface and no traffic or junctions my all out speed and heart rate are pretty close to my all out speed on the turbo. Of course out on real roads it rarely stays flat for long, and you often brake and freewheel. On the turbo there is no braking, no freewheeling, and no
> _*movement*_ The nearest match to turbo intensity outdoors is when tackling up hills in the higher gears.
> 
> If you were measuring how difficult each is purely based on the intensity it would be the turbo (outside of proper short races and TTs). But the difficulty of outdoor rides is about much more than just intensity, and are often far longer than turbo sessions.


Sorted that for you.


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## CXRAndy (14 Jan 2019)

HLaB said:


> Virtual miles shouldn't be mixed with outdoors IMO. By all means count them but keep them separate.
> 
> FWIW I don't count them as I think they are fairly meaningless. For instance on my current heavily damped turbo I can sprint at 17-19mph but on my older magnetic turbo the same sprint would see me at a theoretical 56mph.
> Similarly on the rollers I can fairly easily do a 20min theoretical 10 miles but my best 10miles TT on the road is only 23:57.
> Indoor trainers have their purpose but don't treat them the same as outdoors.



You are talking about poor accuracy devices, where I and a lot of others use quality direct drive trainers with power meters accurate to 1 or 2% offering resistance upto 20% gradients. These units when connected to the likes of Zwift provide an accurate counter of miles(km), power, speed. When I go outside and ride 40 miles over rolling terrain. I take about 2hr10, its about the same time, therefore speed for a similar terrain within Zwift. These are solo rides so no benefit from drafting. The effort and time is very close to what you'd expect for shorter rides say 20miles , just a little over the hour. 

You maybe confusing the racing scene within Zwift where your average speed can be significantly higher for the same power effort, and the extremely popular big events where 5000 riders are racing together, it is a draft fest. I've experienced a similar speed boost when I did the Tour of Cambridge, where speeds were high 20's mph for very long periods especially in the early part of the event, much like Zwift.

I count all my miles as one, but Im happy to switch the count TSS instead of miles. I think I did 20,000 TSS last year. What was your TSS score?


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## derrick (14 Jan 2019)

CXRAndy said:


> You are talking about poor accuracy devices, where I and a lot of others use quality direct drive trainers with power meters accurate to 1 or 2% offering resistance upto 20% gradients. These units when connected to the likes of Zwift provide an accurate counter of miles(km), power, speed. When I go outside and ride 40 miles over rolling terrain. I take about 2hr10, its about the same time, therefore speed for a similar terrain within Zwift. These are solo rides so no benefit from drafting. The effort and time is very close to what you'd expect for shorter rides say 20miles , just a little over the hour.
> 
> You maybe confusing the racing scene within Zwift where your average speed can be significantly higher for the same power effort, and the extremely popular big events where 5000 riders are racing together, it is a draft fest. I've experienced a similar speed boost when I did the Tour of Cambridge, where speeds were high 20's mph for very long periods especially in the early part of the event, much like Zwift.
> 
> I count all my miles as one, but Im happy to switch the count TSS instead of miles. I think I did 20,000 TSS last year. What was your TSS score?


What is TSS?


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## fossyant (14 Jan 2019)

derrick said:


> What is TSS?



He's blinding you with science ! 

We'll be talking about FTP next ! Not that much of it makes a difference, only to yourself, if you can be bothered.


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## fossyant (14 Jan 2019)

I think folk get very upset - it's a bit like a helmet thread. 

If you haven't tried a smart trainer, I'd recommend someone to give it a go. It's worlds different from my original 'turbo' and the rollers. Things come into their own when linked to software. 

I used to do say 30 minutes on the 'original' turbo, and just log it as 10 miles. If I'd have had it hooked up to a garmin, it would have probably read 15 miles as you used to have to use a big gear to get the resistance. The new smart turbos make a huge difference. Zwift has a replica of Alpe D'Huez on it, and you certainly don't get very far in the 90 minutes it takes you to get to the top from the start of the ride - the main climb is about 60-70 minutes with a warm up. 

They are very useful bits of kit for those who are time constrained with work and family commitments (especially if you no longer commute to work).


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## HLaB (14 Jan 2019)

CXRAndy said:


> You are talking about poor accuracy devices, where I and a lot of others use quality direct drive trainers with power meters accurate to 1 or 2% offering resistance upto 20% gradients. These units when connected to the likes of Zwift provide an accurate counter of miles(km), power, speed. When I go outside and ride 40 miles over rolling terrain. I take about 2hr10, its about the same time, therefore speed for a similar terrain within Zwift. These are solo rides so no benefit from drafting. The effort and time is very close to what you'd expect for shorter rides say 20miles , just a little over the hour.
> 
> You maybe confusing the racing scene within Zwift where your average speed can be significantly higher for the same power effort, and the extremely popular big events where 5000 riders are racing together, it is a draft fest. I've experienced a similar speed boost when I did the Tour of Cambridge, where speeds were high 20's mph for very long periods especially in the early part of the event, much like Zwift.
> 
> I count all my miles as one, but Im happy to switch the count TSS instead of miles. I think I did 20,000 TSS last year. What was your TSS score?


Whatever floats your boat even with the best simulator indoor won't be the same outdoors. Im not confusing things I'm just using extremes to show they are not comparable but if you want to compare so be it, as said what ever floats your boat.


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## HLaB (14 Jan 2019)

derrick said:


> What is TSS?


Trees, Sunshine and Stressfree


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## Drago (14 Jan 2019)

I'm now going to start counting press ups as bench press reps, having a shower as swimming, and laying in bed as miles on the street luge.


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## Ming the Merciless (14 Jan 2019)

derrick said:


> What is TSS?



Total Sex Score


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## bridgy (14 Jan 2019)

HLaB said:


> Whatever floats your boat even with the best simulator indoor won't be the same outdoors. Im not confusing things I'm just using extremes to show they are not comparable but if you want to compare so be it, as said what ever floats your boat.


Not all outdoor miles are comparable either - eg an hour of riding a full TT bike vs road bike vs mountain biking etc. The only thing those have in common is they're done outdoors but they tend to all be lumped together in total mileage by most people. The modern smart trainers @CXRAndy was talking about do a good job of replicating road miles - they're more comparable to road miles than the other types of outdoor miles I mentioned above are to each other. 

I agree - whatever floats your boat but I do think they are comparable (on the right equipment)


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## Venod (14 Jan 2019)

If you run 10k on a treadmill is it equal to running 10k outdoors ?


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## HLaB (14 Jan 2019)

bridgy said:


> Not all outdoor miles are comparable either - eg an hour of riding a full TT bike vs road bike vs mountain biking etc. The only thing those have in common is they're done outdoors but they tend to all be lumped together in total mileage by most people. The modern smart trainers @CXRAndy was talking about do a good job of replicating road miles - they're more comparable to road miles than the other types of outdoor miles I mentioned above are to each other.
> 
> I agree - whatever floats your boat but I do think they are comparable (on the right equipment)


Your right; I keep different disciplines separate.
I'm not doubting simulators are getting better but they're still not the same; as track miles are not the same as mtb miles etc but folk can do what ever they want to do


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## derrick (14 Jan 2019)

It does not matter what type of bike you ride.TT MTB ROAD COMMUTER. BMX. You are actually moving.


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## Milkfloat (14 Jan 2019)

Afnug said:


> If you run 10k on a treadmill is it equal to running 10k outdoors ?



I would say you should set about 1 degree slope to make it match.


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## CXRAndy (15 Jan 2019)

Drago said:


> How can it be mileage if you haven't moved an inch?



You're being pedantic. 

Strava and all of the other activity recording sites generally use mileage as their measuring stick. Previously mentioned, but for the hard of hearing, you could use TSS, average power, whatever to record the activities. Cycling is cycling whether indoor or outdoor, neither is more precious, that it cant be used as a record of time spent cycling. 
I record most of my activities, but I must be really bad, I dont tend to record my mtb rides or leisurely rides into town, or compartmentalise all activities. 

This thread is akin the road cycling snobbery, where road riders wont wave and acknowledge MTB riders or leisure riders they see on road. 

So if it pisses you off with incandescent rage when you see a Strava user who just bunches their rides in one file, good


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## Heckler (15 Jan 2019)

I jump on my bike in the garage I choose a course on Bkool and ride flat out, doing daft things like chase down other riders and giving it beans up the inclines, then I jump off into the shower and on the couch. I get fitter over the winter and I don't have to ride miles at the beginning and end of the ride to get to the exact sort of ride I want to do.

Is this the same as riding outside, I honestly couldn't care less. It's riding, it's working the same muscles, it's improving my technique. Include it on your miles, don't include it, it's only important to you. If you feel so weighed down by the opinions of others then do what they do, but ultimately it's what it means to you.


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## bridgy (15 Jan 2019)

Indoor static rides that I record as miles (on strava), and understand why others might want to do so:
- Rides done on a smart trainer connected to Zwift or similar
Because:
1) the physical efforts are very similar to outdoor road rides - including replicating resistance for hills etc
2) my smart trainer + Zwift converts these efforts into a "virtual" mileage figure quite accurately
3) Zwift is connected to my Strava account so just automatically logs the rides as virtual miles in my total anyway (although easily separated out if I want)
4) based on this, whether or not my physical efforts propel my bike forward through space or not is pretty irrelevant as it's my comparative physical effort I'm most interested in measuring.

Indoor static rides I wouldn't record as miles personally:
- spinning on a dumb trainer/basic exercise bike/spin bike
Because:
I don't think those efforts can be easily or accurately converted to equivalent miles in the way a smart trainer+zwift does. 

Instead, if I did log these type of static rides on strava, it would be just time spent exercising if anything, not mileage. I used to do spinning classes, and still do occasionally, but they never go on Strava. I did a 12 hour charity "spinathon" on a spinning bike a couple of years ago and this I did record on Strava via my garmin (because it was a special event, and people who knew me on strava had sponsored me) - as a 12 hour indoor ride with zero miles.

I'm just clarifying this because think some (not all) of this discussion is people arguing with each other about slightly different things because there's more than one type of "turbo miles" as per the OP question


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## nickAKA (15 Jan 2019)

Had a terrible thought this morning - should I be logging running steps (outdoor, I'm not a millionaire ) as part of my 10,000 daily steps?
This thought genuinely occurred to me and I'm laying the blame squarely upon this thread...


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## Freelanderuk (15 Jan 2019)

I am going to use my trainer in the garden  no arguments then,I am outside riding


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## bridgy (15 Jan 2019)

Freelanderuk said:


> I am going to use my trainer in the garden  no arguments then,I am outside riding


I think the purists would still argue you're not "going anywhere". Can you get someone to push your trainer in circles around the garden or something while you ride?


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## Heckler (15 Jan 2019)

bridgy said:


> I think the purists would still argue you're not "going anywhere". Can you get someone to push your trainer in circles around the garden or something while you ride?



Well the clear way to settle the argument is to put the trainer on the back of a flat bed and have someone drive you and the trainer as you pedal the exact same distance, preferably in the same geographic location as the ride.


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## Drago (15 Jan 2019)

I'm going to start claiming time spent playing Call of Duty at extra time spent in the army.


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## Heckler (15 Jan 2019)

Drago said:


> I'm going to start claiming time spent playing Call of Duty at extra time spent in the army.



Be careful, if someone from the government hears you, they'll start including the Call of Duty players as 'on active duty' to plump up the numbers.


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## derrick (15 Jan 2019)

Dogtrousers said:


> The underlying gist of this thread is actually nothing to do with annual records. What it boils down to is that some people regard stationary indoor bicycle contraptions as self evidently a Bad Thing. As this is self-evident reasons are unnecessary, but from a careful review of this thread the key points seem to be:
> 
> Stationary indoor bicycle contraptions are not outside.
> Stationary indoor bicycle contraptions are not mobile.


Nobody is saying that. There is a place for turbos. Spin bikes and wat bikes. They serve a perpuse Great for exercizing on. Its just you do not go any where on them.


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## berty bassett (15 Jan 2019)

derrick said:


> Nobody is saying that. There is a place for turbos. Spin bikes and wat bikes. They serve a perpuse Great for exercizing on. Its just you do not go any where on them.


I don’t think anyone is saying you actually move on a turbo , but nowadays as the miles are made to feel so real with the chance of rocker boards , climbs etc and the fact that Zwift counts them in miles and not other units , it makes sense to count them as miles. I wouldn’t go outside and count a ride in minutes ! It makes everything easier having a universal measurement but I have said this before and feel that I could go go repeating myself sometime 
I know the turbo miles have helped me in the past and are helping me now 
I went out last night around dark lakes in pitch black with twists and turns and puddles and dog walkers walking in dark clothes with dogs on long leads - I know what benefits me more fitness wise 
But each to their own


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## derrick (15 Jan 2019)

berty bassett said:


> I don’t think anyone is saying you actually move on a turbo , but nowadays as the miles are made to feel so real with the chance of rocker boards , climbs etc and the fact that Zwift counts them in miles and not other units , it makes sense to count them as miles. I wouldn’t go outside and count a ride in minutes ! It makes everything easier having a universal measurement but I have said this before and feel that I could go go repeating myself sometime
> I know the turbo miles have helped me in the past and are helping me now
> I went out last night around dark lakes in pitch black with twists and turns and puddles and dog walkers walking in dark clothes with dogs on long leads - I know what benefits me more fitness wise
> But each to their own


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## bridgy (15 Jan 2019)

derrick said:


> Nobody is saying that. There is a place for turbos. Spin bikes and wat bikes. They serve a perpuse Great for exercizing on. Its just you do not go any where on them.


You know that indoor rowing is quite a big thing now as well? On rowing machines using very similar technology to smart turbo trainers + Zwift - e.g https://www.britishrowing.org/events/events-calendar/british-rowing-indoor-championships/. I only mention as they also use virtual distance as a measurement of their activities with the events being over 500m, 2000m and 4,000m. I assume you think they're wrong to use distance as a measurement because they're not going anywhere? What would you suggest they do instead?


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## CXRAndy (15 Jan 2019)

We, the family have got a concept row machine, it has a decent display for all your stats. However you can use a piece of software called RowPro.This then brings into virtual racing, just like Zwift, with riders all over the world. competing, training.


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## CXRAndy (15 Jan 2019)

Call of duty, dont laugh, these games are rockbed of specialists who probably go onto flying surveillance and attack drones in the forces. 
Virtual interactive exercise is massive and only going to get bigger more immersive


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## CXRAndy (15 Jan 2019)

derrick said:


> Nobody is saying that. There is a place for turbos. Spin bikes and wat bikes. They serve a perpuse Great for exercizing on. Its just you do not go any where on them.




We know they dont physically move, but the software and the accuracy of the trainer provides a real life comparison of work done, distance traveled, power etc. That is why Strava accepts their data for logging mileage


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## derrick (15 Jan 2019)

Dogtrousers said:


> Gosh really? I'd never noticed that.


Maybe you should try a real bike then.


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## Pumpkin the robot (15 Jan 2019)

CXRAndy said:


> We know they dont physically move, but the software and the accuracy of the trainer provides a real life comparison of work done, distance traveled, power etc. That is why Strava accepts their data for logging mileage



They do not accept static miles for their challenges though. Make of that what you will.


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## Shortandcrisp (15 Jan 2019)

CXRAndy said:


> We know they dont physically move, but the software and the accuracy of the trainer provides a real life comparison of work done, distance traveled, power etc. That is why Strava accepts their data for logging mileage



That’s true, but Strava accepts any data for logging miles. I’ve often manually inputted miles when the iPhone I use suffers one of its numerous glitches. 
I also link Zwift miles to Strava. It’s a little unrealistic in my opinion. There have been weeks when it’s not been possible to get outside on the bike and I’ve recorded 100+ miles at over 20mph average. Never gonna happen out on the road. But, hey ho, nobody dies as a result!


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## bridgy (15 Jan 2019)

Pumpkin the robot said:


> They do not accept static miles for their challenges though. Make of that what you will.


But they do accept them on third party challenges if the third party chooses to include them. Make of that what you will.


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## CXRAndy (15 Jan 2019)

Shortandcrisp said:


> There have been weeks when it’s not been possible to get outside on the bike and I’ve recorded 100+ miles at over 20mph average.



A bit vague, what turbo?

Ive done 100mile group rides at nearly 25 mph on a flat courss, but its no walk in the park with an average for me 240 W for 4 hours. Compare that wattage riding solo the speed is around 20-21mph.


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## Ming the Merciless (15 Jan 2019)

The peoples referendum has been held. The people spoke and we must respect their decision that turbo miles do not count. We will now enter a two year period as we invoke article 50 to withdraw from the turbo world.


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## berty bassett (15 Jan 2019)

oops - i was so uninterested in what people think to my miles i forgot to vote !


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## berty bassett (15 Jan 2019)

derrick said:


>


?


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## Ming the Merciless (15 Jan 2019)

berty bassett said:


> oops - i was so uninterested in what people think to my miles i forgot to vote !



Sound like that other vote!


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## Strathlubnaig (16 Jan 2019)

I track the turbo / spin / rollers km but do not include in my annual cycling totals, same with running and dreadmills. Each to their own though.


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## Zofo (2 Feb 2019)

Riding the turbo is better than not riding at all, but in my opinion and experience turbo riding doesn’t make you “Match Fit” You can spend the winter months churning away on the turbo only to find a soon as you ride out in the real world the fitness and endurance you thought you had just isn’t there.


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## huwsparky (2 Feb 2019)

Zofo said:


> Riding the turbo is better than not riding at all, but in my opinion and experience turbo riding doesn’t make you “Match Fit” You can spend the winter months churning away on the turbo only to find a soon as you ride out in the real world the fitness and endurance you thought you had just isn’t there.


I agree totally. You notice a lot of people put a lot of effort getting their 20min power good as this gives the bragging rights for w/kg-ftp but it's only a part of the story. Was looking at someone's power curve somewhere on this forum recently and after 20min the drop off to the hour was massive. What should be around 5% was about 25%. Obviously depends on what your goals are but having a good endurance base is gonna be pretty important for the majority of people who want to ride a bike quickly. Time is obviously an issue for most but there's no escaping the benefits of having a good base.


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## CXRAndy (2 Feb 2019)

Zofo said:


> Riding the turbo is better than not riding at all, but in my opinion and experience turbo riding doesn’t make you “Match Fit” You can spend the winter months churning away on the turbo only to find a soon as you ride out in the real world the fitness and endurance you thought you had just isn’t there.




I disagree, the level of fitness can be very high and only a smidge off peak if not peak. Depends on your preferred discipline, short, long events or TT to racing. 

There have been some remarkable results from Pro riders who have used a turbo to recover from injury to go and win titles off the back of major turbo training- Steve Cummings comes to mind.

If you have a comprehensive setup with a high end turbo, rocker board, multiple hour sessions are easily achieved indoors


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## Zofo (2 Feb 2019)

CXRAndy said:


> I disagree, the level of fitness can be very high and only a smidge off peak if not peak. Depends on your preferred discipline, short, long events or TT to racing.
> 
> There have been some remarkable results from Pro riders who have used a turbo to recover from injury to go and win titles off the back of major turbo training- Steve Cummings comes to mind.
> 
> If you have a comprehensive setup with a high end turbo, rocker board, multiple hour sessions are easily achieved indoors



Yeah, I was talking from the perspective of a typical weekend warrior MAMIL, so possibly different for those at the top end-marginal gains and what have you .....


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## CXRAndy (2 Feb 2019)

My fitness in spring is very high for me, where I dont need one or two months to build any further. Going outside then just adds a cherry on top. I ride indoors from September to March/April. I have for the last 3 years had winter trips to Tenerife with organised tour company. Great fun, extra sun, warm weather, lots of mountain climbing, breaks up the turbo sessions


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## huwsparky (2 Feb 2019)

Zofo said:


> Yeah, I was talking from the perspective of a typical weekend warrior MAMIL, so possibly different for those at the top end-marginal gains and what have you .....


Absolutely right. Comparing a typical mamil to a top end pro is totally pointless. The biggest strength of a pro is the biggest weakness of a weekend warrior.


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## CXRAndy (2 Feb 2019)

huwsparky said:


> Absolutely right. Comparing a typical mamil to a top end pro is totally pointless. The biggest strength of a pro is the biggest weakness of a weekend warrior.



No its not, if anyone puts the time and effort into turbo sessions, they will arrive at spring very fit. On the few occasions Ive gone on club runs earlier in the new year, my fitness has usually been much better than my club mates who ride outdoors all winter.


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## huwsparky (2 Feb 2019)

CXRAndy said:


> No its not, if anyone puts the time and effort into turbo sessions, they will arrive at spring very fit. On the few occasions Ive gone on club runs earlier in the new year, my fitness has usually been much better than my club mates who ride outdoors all winter.


To me that says more about what your mates are doing with their time than it does about you. Obviously, crap training is crap training no matter how you dress it up. And let's be honest, if your mates don't do any indoor training then they probably don't ride all that much anyway in winter.

BTW I do a fair bit of riding indoors, but I couldn't go through the boredom of 4+ hours weekly ride that i know i need to do be where I need to be for when i start the season. If you can block out the boredom and get those rides done indoors then I don't for one minute think they are more effective being done outdoors BTW.


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## Ming the Merciless (2 Feb 2019)

huwsparky said:


> To me that says more about what your mates are doing with their time than it does about you. Obviously, crap training is crap training no matter how you dress it up. And let's be honest, if your mates don't do any indoor training then they probably don't ride all that much anyway in winter.
> 
> BTW I do a fair bit of riding indoors, but I couldn't go through the boredom of 4+ hours weekly ride that i know i need to do be where I need to be for when i start the season. If you can block out the boredom and get those rides done indoors then I don't for one minute think they are more effective being done outdoors BTW.



Plenty enough riders do a reasonable amount of miles outdoors in the winter (with none indoors) . Maybe his mates are covering more than 200 miles a week during the winter. What do you call not very many miles when referring to @CXRAndy's mates?


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## huwsparky (2 Feb 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> Plenty enough riders do a reasonable amount of miles outdoors in the winter (with none indoors) . Maybe his mates are covering more than 200 miles a week during the winter. What do you call not very many miles when referring to @CXRAndy's mates?


How the hell can I answer that? I don't know them


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## Ming the Merciless (2 Feb 2019)

huwsparky said:


> How the hell can I answer that? I don't know them



So you do not know whether they do lots of outdoor miles or not. What would you say is enough outdoor miles for them?


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## huwsparky (2 Feb 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> So you do not know whether they do lots of outdoor miles or not. What would you say is enough outdoor miles for them?


No, I don't. But it sounds to me like their training isn't effective no matter how many miles they do. 

Depends on their goals, of course.


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## Ming the Merciless (2 Feb 2019)

huwsparky said:


> No, I don't. But it sounds to me like their training isn't effective no matter how many miles they do.
> 
> Depends on their goals, of course.



So going back to your statement, probably have not done many outdoor miles. Pretty meaningless and based on nothing then. Plus you do not say what you mean by not many outdoor winter miles. Care to put a number on that?


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## CXRAndy (2 Feb 2019)

huwsparky said:


> I couldn't go through the boredom of 4+ hours



That' s the point, you dont need to do 4+ hours indoors in one session, to replicate the outdoor stress score. As a general rule, you never stop pedalling whilst applying power indoors.


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## huwsparky (2 Feb 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> So going back to your statement, probably have not done many outdoor miles. Pretty meaningless and based on nothing then. Plus you do not say what you mean by not many outdoor winter miles. Care to put a number on that?


It doesn't matter on the number of miles, like I said. The amount of time anyone needs to train will be specific to their goals. That's all Andy has given us is that he's stronger than his mates when they go out riding after the winter. Maybe he's stronger all year, I don't know. 

But if the dude gives his mates a kicking after the winter is over where he usually doesn't, say in the summer, then it's pretty obvious to me that whatever his buddies are doing in the winter isn't as affective as what he's doing. Don't really know what more you're looking for here. 

And it's kind of ironic that all this is coming from someone who tells everyone almost daily that theyre working on their aerobic system which is pretty much exactly what I think is lacking in most recreational cyclists and what started this episode . And we don't really agree often, who would have though.


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## huwsparky (2 Feb 2019)

CXRAndy said:


> That' s the point, you dont need to do 4+ hours indoors in one session, to replicate the outdoor stress score. As a general rule, you never stop pedalling whilst applying power indoors.


Depends on your goals and how you respond to the training that you do. I do, because I monitor my training and know what works for me.


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## Shortandcrisp (3 Feb 2019)

My tuppence worth based on nothing more than personal experience.

Do lots of weightlifting. If I perform plenty of dumbbell curls I get very good at doing dumbbells curls, but this doesn’t necessarily mean I’ll be particularly great at another arm exercise I haven’t spent much time doing. 

If I spend most of the winter riding outside, come the Spring I’m better at riding outside than if I’d spent the whole winter riding a bike indoors. However, if I then rode on the turbo, I’d struggle to train at the threshold power from the previous winter’s indoor training. 

Conversely, if I spent the whole winter on the turbo, my threshold power would increase but, personally, this wouldn’t be replicated out on the road. At least not immediately.

There’s a big element of specificality involved in my opinion. But training is training, it’s just that there’s a period of adjustment or ‘acclimatisation’ involved when switching from one to the other.


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## Salty seadog (3 Feb 2019)

How far away from the TV do you travel on a turbo session? My guess is no miles or even inches cycled.....


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## Venod (3 Feb 2019)

huwsparky said:


> No, I don't. But it sounds to me like their training isn't effective no matter how many miles they do.



Have you considered your assumption about Andy's mates might be wrong and he is fitter than them by doing Turbo training, and your assumptions about Turbo training are wrong 
Andy's mates may be very fit with lots of outdoor winter miles, he may just be fitter with loads of Turbo miles.


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## CXRAndy (3 Feb 2019)

My club mates are generally seasoned mamils and older, some are very strong and faster, but younger. I dont keep a close eye on their training, but I would guess with most club riders they are riding mostly for pleasure whilst trying to maintain last years level of fitness. I know thats what im doing. At my age my fitness is never going to suddenly jump. Overall Im a better stronger cyclist for putting nearly 4 years of winter turbo training. I use spring and summer to enjoy my fitness, with one week foreign tours, sportives, club outings and local TTs.


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## cld531c (6 Feb 2019)

But if you count the miles, which miles? My Garmin will show a different figure than Bkool?
FWIW I log outdoor rides as miles, indoors as hours (well minutes!!!).


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## bridgy (6 Feb 2019)

cld531c said:


> But if you count the miles, which miles? My Garmin will show a different figure than Bkool?
> FWIW I log outdoor rides as miles, indoors as hours (well minutes!!!).


You would need to use the miles logged on the software (eg bkool or Zwift) not the garmin. Your garmin couldn't be used to measure speed or mileage accurately on a smart trainer connected to this kind of software as the software algorithm is making adjustments based on gradient etc that the garmin won't know about


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## cld531c (7 Feb 2019)

bridgy said:


> You would need to use the miles logged on the software (eg bkool or Zwift) not the garmin. Your garmin couldn't be used to measure speed or mileage accurately on a smart trainer connected to this kind of software as the software algorithm is making adjustments based on gradient etc that the garmin won't know about



And the software mileage is always higher!!!


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## bridgy (7 Feb 2019)

cld531c said:


> And the software mileage is always higher!!!


So? The speed/mileage on a speed sensor is irrelevant to the mileage recorded on the software. The speed sensor is simply recording the speed the wheel is turning, and not taking into account the gradient etc. whilst the software is calculating speed (& distance) based on power. Sometimes you may be going downhill and your in-game speed could be higher than your wheel speed because it's simulating the speed you'd gain from the affects of gravity. On the other hand you may be going uphill at a gradient that your trainer can't replicate the full resistance for, in which case it will take your power and adjust your speed (compared to your wheel speed) downwards. In both circumstances, wheel speed is irrelevant, but power is instead used to calculate what your speed would be in real life at that gradient etc.

As I said earlier in the thread, that's why I wouldn't use a mileage measurement from a spin bike or dumb trainer not connected to any virtual reality software, as there's no way of accurately measuring virtual speed and distance on these.


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## bbvelo (12 Feb 2019)

I'd say that the miles you do on a turbo training session should count, but going on the turbo specifically just to do 50 miles for example is just a bit pointless


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## CXRAndy (12 Feb 2019)

bbvelo said:


> I'd say that the miles you do on a turbo training session should count, but going on the turbo specifically just to do 50 miles for example is just a bit pointless



I use a turbo training and racing. Training i count time, watts and stress score. Racing i count Watts. Mileage is counted for me in both scenarios


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## FishFright (12 Feb 2019)

bridgy said:


> You would need to use the miles logged on the software (eg bkool or Zwift) not the garmin. Your garmin couldn't be used to measure speed or mileage accurately on a smart trainer connected to this kind of software as the software algorithm is making adjustments based on gradient etc that the garmin won't know about



Zero is pretty hard to resolve using gps


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## Ming the Merciless (12 Feb 2019)

I turbo outside and I do it in the winter. Now we all know winter miles count double and I count outdoor miles and turbo miles. So I am being time efficient by doing four times as many miles as I would do on the road.


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