# Gaz down in Streatham



## BentMikey (16 Dec 2010)

Apparently been hit by a car, with cops and waiting for the ambo. He says "Should be fine". I hope so, and I hope the bike is also OK!


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## gbb (16 Dec 2010)

Bugger...hope it pans out ok.


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## Jezston (16 Dec 2010)

yikes, hope he really is ok and his nice new bike isn't a write off!


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## potsy (16 Dec 2010)

Fingers crossed he's OK, thanks for letting us all know BM.


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## Origamist (16 Dec 2010)

Bugger. If he needs anyone to get his bike or check up on him in hospital, let me know as I can get there easily enough, if I know where he is.


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## Dayvo (16 Dec 2010)

It's bad enough when any cyclist is down, but when it's one of us, it makes it 'more real and personal!'

Hope he's OK and it's nowt serious or painful


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## BentMikey (16 Dec 2010)

Just posted he's fine - damaged front wheel and bruised elbow. Phew, I was fearing much worse.


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## Origamist (16 Dec 2010)

BentMikey said:


> Just posted he's fine - damaged front wheel and bruised elbow. Phew, I was fearing much worse.



Good news.


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## magnatom (16 Dec 2010)

Eek! But good news he is ok..ish. Fingers crossed there are no injuries that show up later.


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## downfader (16 Dec 2010)

BentMikey said:


> Just posted he's fine - damaged front wheel and bruised elbow. Phew, I was fearing much worse.




Was reading through this and fearing the worst, like broken bits or something. 

GWS Gaz! Wheels and bikes can be replaced...


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## Sheffield_Tiger (16 Dec 2010)

downfader said:


> GWS Gaz! Wheels and bikes can be replaced...



This

Though they shouldn't have to be...

Still, hope the bike is okay too of course save for the wheel


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## ianrauk (16 Dec 2010)

just got to this thread. Glad to hear the Gazster is ok.


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## ComedyPilot (16 Dec 2010)

Hope Gaz is OK, and I hope the vehicle's a write-off.


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## As Easy As Riding A Bike (16 Dec 2010)

Glad to hear Gaz is not badly hurt.

Get well soon!


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## gaz (16 Dec 2010)

Ta for the wishes everyone.
I'll get the video up shortly as i think that will speak louder than anything i have to say
Driver is to blame but i doubt the police will do anything as it's just one of those things.
At present all that hurts is my right forearm which went through his bonnet and landed on the engine block.


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## BentMikey (16 Dec 2010)

Through his bonnet? 'k me gently, that's hard as nails that is.


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## Bollo (16 Dec 2010)

Origamist launches video of the year and Gaz augers in on the same day?! Coincidence? ;-)Glad you're not too badly hurt Gaz. Take it easy.


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## downfader (16 Dec 2010)

Sheffield_Tiger said:


> This
> 
> Though they shouldn't have to be...
> 
> Still, hope the bike is okay too of course save for the wheel




I completely agree. I still miss my Marin Fairfax (lost to a pothole breaking the frame) and my Sausilito (lost to plebian driver on a RAB)


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## downfader (16 Dec 2010)

gaz said:


> Ta for the wishes everyone.
> I'll get the video up shortly as i think that will speak louder than anything i have to say
> Driver is to blame but i doubt the police will do anything as it's just one of those things.
> At present all that hurts is my right forearm which went through his bonnet and landed on the engine block.




If you're claiming off his insurance then leave the vid private and blur faces, reg etc if you do post it.


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## Origamist (16 Dec 2010)

Bollo said:


> Origamist launches video of the year and Gaz augers in on the same day?! Coincidence? ;-)Glad you're not too badly hurt Gaz. Take it easy.



Yeah, what would Col say about that, eh - CHOREOGRAPHY.


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## Arch (16 Dec 2010)

Blimey, hope you're not to sore Gaz, and get well soon...


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## GrumpyGregry (16 Dec 2010)

GWS


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## gaz (16 Dec 2010)

[media]
]View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqCwjC2VIXw[/media]

It's still processing at the time of uploading.

The reason i didn't seen this coming is the car in front of the white van just moved forward as i got to the white van. As the gap had only just formed i wasn't expecting someone to be coming through straight away.


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## gb155 (16 Dec 2010)

Gaz, Hope you are ok dude, Gaz


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## slowmotion (16 Dec 2010)

Oh dear. Best wishes for a swift recovery.


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## clarion (16 Dec 2010)

Sorry to hear about that Gaz.

Hope you GWS, and get the bike sorted.


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## dave r (16 Dec 2010)

[QUOTE 1269975"]
I think that could be ruled as 50/50 in terms of blame and I recall Origamist posted a link to a load of case law regarding filtering - I might be wrong of course.

I would not have been going that fast with the traffic that heavy TBH and GWS.
[/quote]


Best wishes for a speedy recovery Gaz. I have to agree with User3143, to much speed in a bus lane on the left of almost stationary traffic, almost certainly 50/50. I got caught like that a few years ago, in a cycle lane on the left of stop/start traffic carrying too much speed, seen the car coming, couldn't do much about it, tried to turn down the entrance on my left, the one he was turning into, went into him sideways and face planted on his bonnet, looked like I'd gone 10 rounds with Lenox Lewis the next day.


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## Coco (16 Dec 2010)

Sorry to hear about this Gaz. Get Well Soon!


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## As Easy As Riding A Bike (16 Dec 2010)

dave r said:


> Best wishes for a speedy recovery Gaz. I have to agree with User3143, to much speed in a bus lane on the left of almost stationary traffic, almost certainly 50/50. I got caught like that a few years ago, in a cycle lane on the left of stop/start traffic carrying too much speed, seen the car coming, couldn't do much about it, tried to turn down the entrance on my left, the one he was turning into, went into him sideways and face planted on his bonnet, looked like I'd gone 10 rounds with Lenox Lewis the next day.



Not sure about 50/50.

The driver is crossing the bus lane. The onus is surely on him to check it is clear. 

Perhaps Gaz was carrying a little too much speed, but that looks like the gap suddenly appeared, and the driver went for it - and went for it without checking. Even when Gaz appears, it doesn't look like he clocks him. There's no sudden braking at all before collision.

But I expect this will run and run...


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## mr Mag00 (16 Dec 2010)

gws


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## DrSquirrel (16 Dec 2010)

Gaz - what was the attitude of the driver?



dave r said:


> Best wishes for a speedy recovery Gaz. I have to agree with User3143, to much speed in a bus lane on the left of almost stationary traffic, almost certainly 50/50. I got caught like that a few years ago, in a cycle lane on the left of stop/start traffic carrying too much speed, seen the car coming, couldn't do much about it, tried to turn down the entrance on my left, the one he was turning into, went into him sideways and face planted on his bonnet, looked like I'd gone 10 rounds with Lenox Lewis the next day.



I thought the speed of Gaz was pretty sedate, if anything the car was going too fast probably faster than Gaz himself...!

Bullshit to 50/50!


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## As Easy As Riding A Bike (16 Dec 2010)

DrSquirrel said:


> Bullshit to 50/50!



That's what I was thinking - but I expressed it a little more politely! 

The driver has just assumed the bus lane would be clear. Given that he should be giving way to a lane he is crossing, he is at fault.


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## fossyant (16 Dec 2010)

Erm.......100% driver............

Gaz was in a 'huge' bus lane, not a bit of paint........... 

Check the shoulder out in about 2-3 days, then a week or two more................... and the elbow.............. it won't hurt now..... it will shortly...............


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## Headgardener (16 Dec 2010)

DrSquirrel said:


> Gaz - what was the attitude of the driver?
> 
> 
> 
> ...






WheelyGoodFun said:


> That's what I was thinking - but I expressed it a little more politely!
> 
> The driver has just assumed the bus lane would be clear. Given that he should be giving way to a lane he is crossing, he is at fault.



I agree with both of those comments, Gaz was probably not doing more than 15mph. The driver didn't even look just saw the gap and went for it. IMO 100% drivers fault.

P.S. Sorry forgot to add "Get Well Soon Gaz".


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## ianrauk (16 Dec 2010)

I had the exact same accident last year. 
The driver who hit me admitted responsibility.

The driver would have seen it was a bus lane, his sight lines would have been blocked so should have proceeded with caution expecting that a vehicle, (Bus, Motorbike, Car or Cycle) could have been travelling along there.
They decided to chance the turn too fast without looking, with the expected result.

No way was it Gaz's fault.


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## Marbler (16 Dec 2010)

I agree. The driver should be looking out for traffic moving along the bus lane even though the traffic in the right hand lane was static. The driver was responsible for checking the road was clear before driving over two lanes. Gaz was simply "minding his own" and riding in a single lane although we generally don't do that and will try to anticipate these things happening by slowing down being aware this can happen.


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## fossyant (16 Dec 2010)

Bird Brain said:


> 50/50 Defensive cycling would probably have avoided that.



And what Planet are you on ?


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## gaz (16 Dec 2010)

Everyone is entitled to there opinion on whose fault it is. Lets not turn this into a slagging match like some of the other threads.


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## As Easy As Riding A Bike (16 Dec 2010)

Some people seem to be thinking that, because Gaz might have been able to avoid that accident if he had 

a) been crawling along and/or 
b) stopping and checking that some muppet isn't going to come ploughing into him every time there's a gap in traffic, 

he is just as responsible as the driver. 

Their logic is slightly faulty.


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## summerdays (16 Dec 2010)

Hope you aren't feeling too bad and that you quickly recover ... wouldn't want your Christmas plans spoilt. Hope the bike is a quick fix too.


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## Tynan (16 Dec 2010)

good, about time someone else had an accident on here

it's the one I dread, there's very little you can do to really avoid this one other than stay at home


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## Peter88 (16 Dec 2010)

Sorry to hear about tha crash Gaz

Hope the bike ain't too badly damaged,

But most importantly I hope you are back up and riding soon.


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## campbellab (17 Dec 2010)

It definitely seems avoidable, until you read gaz's comment about the car infront just moving off and rewatch it. The driver attacked the gap at speed with a big white van blocking his view..!


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## 2Loose (17 Dec 2010)

Ow! GWS Gaz. Glad you are well enough to post - good sign!


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## Keith Oates (17 Dec 2010)

Only just seen this Gaz, I hope all goes well for you and there is no delayed action in the cuts and bruises situation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## eddiemee (17 Dec 2010)

GWS Gaz. Glad nothing is broken.

Without resorting to slanging, I can't understand the perception some people have that this was anything less than 100% driver's fault. Gaz was proceeding legally along the bus lane, did not deviate from his course, was not filtering or undertaking. How can people therefore think he shares any blame?

One could argue that you should hit the brakes every time you notice a gap in traffic to your right, and sure that might have prevented THIS incident, but then you increase the risk of getting rear-ended because following bikes/buses would not be expecting you to brake when the route is clear.

The driver did not check that the bus lane was clear before crossing it, and as a result caused a collison. I can't see how it's anything more complicated than that.


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## barongreenback (17 Dec 2010)

Glad you're ok and back on the bike soon. Whether it was a bus or bike, there would have been an accident. Can't help thinking that the car driver was damned lucky it was a cyclist he hit and not the number 63.


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## Simba (17 Dec 2010)

That could have been much worse. Glad nothing is broken and get well soon.


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## Ste T. (17 Dec 2010)

The lengths some people will go to, to get some decent footage.
How many times did you have to re do the junction until somebody hit you ?  

Get well soon Gaz.


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## BSRU (17 Dec 2010)

Get well soon Gaz, in my opinion driver completely at fault, rushing to cross a line of traffic without looking at what might be in the oncoming bus lane, they would have collided with whatever was in the bus lane. They will probably be done for driving without due care and attention.


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## BenM (17 Dec 2010)

With my tongue firmly in my cheek I would just like to say that Gaz must have been somehow signalling to the driver to hit him because Gaz was wearing a camera and the only reason cyclists wear cameras is to encourage motorists to drive to a poor standard. I though everyone knew that!

Much more seriously - hope the bruising isn't too bad and that if your elbow bent the bonnet down to touch the engine block I hope you didn't get burned either... if you elbow actually did go through the bonnet I would take it to an x-ray machine (along with the rest of you)!

Recover quickly - unfortunately it will probably take a little more than a week 

B.


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## lukesdad (17 Dec 2010)

Bus Lane, Waazzzzzzz that then ?.......Like a motorway for cyclists  Speedy recovery M8


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## turnout (17 Dec 2010)

Driver's fault. If the driver says it was the van driver's fault for flashing him on I recommend killing both drivers with sticks and fire.


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## dave r (17 Dec 2010)

Bird Brain said:


> 50/50 Defensive cycling would probably have avoided that.



Could have not would have.




gaz said:


> Everyone is entitled to there opinion on whose fault it is. Lets not turn this into a slagging match like some of the other threads.



+1

How are you feeling this morning Gaz?


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## Origamist (17 Dec 2010)

Bird Brain said:


> 50/50 Defensive cycling would probably have avoided that.



Do you think if a bus had have hit the car (turning across its path), the insurers would have settled for a 50/50 liability split? Get real.

GWS, Gaz.


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## Rhythm Thief (17 Dec 2010)

While I take your point Lee - and agree to an extent - the driver really should have been proceeding much more cautiously. That's what I'd have done in the same circumstances: you can't see through Transit vans after all. He was lucky Gaz wasn't driving a bus.


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## BentMikey (17 Dec 2010)

100% driver fault. No question about it - he was turning right and failed to make sure that the second lane he was crossing was clear.

As for more defensive cycling, that's a whole different debate. I would say that was one of the harder ones to spot though, IME.


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## Vikeonabike (17 Dec 2010)

Man up ya wuss....it's not serious...totally agree with the defensive cycling bit...should have beeon on the footpath (walking your bike). Accident would have been totally avoidable!




Get well soon dude..
Totally Drivers fault, he has not looked to see what was coming down the bus lane, just gone for the gap, possibly been waved through but that counts for nothing!
Vike


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## BentMikey (17 Dec 2010)

Gaz is considerably more careful when riding than you are, Lee, having ridden with you both. Your posts on this topic are just a tad hypocritical.


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## turnout (17 Dec 2010)

[QUOTE 1270015"]
Oh please, this coming from someone who thinks that being on a RAB gives them automatic rights with respect to not having to give way. Try and keep this on topic and not act the idiot. I've explained my position if you want to counter this then crack on but please dispense with the comments of me being a hypocrite.
[/quote]


User never said that, you are spoiling the thread by arguing pointlessly.

Did an ambulance attend gaz? What was the driver's attitude?


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## turnout (17 Dec 2010)

Bent mikey never said that either.

Be quiet you silly dishonest person.


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## turnout (17 Dec 2010)

I know with filtering blame may be shared. This wasn't filtering. Cyclists are allowed to use bike lanes. Had the driver been more cautious the collision would have been averted.

100% driver fault.


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## Alien8 (17 Dec 2010)

Yes, even more defensive cycling could have avoided what was in the end quite a light-weight collision but I guess it depends how defensive you want to be - stop at every side-road, check, and then proceed?

I guess you need to workout how far the motorist needed to proceed through the turn before they could see down the bus lane.


Anyway, Gaz seems to have taken it on the chin - so I can't see the point in having another handbags at dawn fight.


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## Aperitif (17 Dec 2010)

OK - get well soon Gaz.

Looking at the video, I offer this: (Remember it is me riding, not Gaz  ) I'm heading down the bus lane - all good, nice and clear, not too fast. I see a car in front poking it's nose out too far for me to be comfortable holding my line and I veer outward (in my friendly bus lane...going 'fast' enough that I know no-one is going to be overtaking me etc..) - 'all' my concentration is to the left and. Bang! The traffic line to my right was stationary and my junction attention was lacking. It was as much my fault as the driver who 'got the nod', didn't see a huge bus, and thought all was ok. 50/50 I would think to myself and walk away - although I would be dealing with stuff like that a lot slower,( and watching the left hand car's wheels like a hawk) so possibly could have avoided trouble...

That would be my line of thinking if I was in Gaz's position. I'm not good enough to tell people what to do, and I certainly daydream at times. It must be hard to keep seeing errors everywhere, which is why, sometimes, we avoid spotting our own.

Speedy recovery Gaz - and everyone be careful - please.

Oh - and I don't think Lee is being untoward in his comments either. IMO he is an honest rider who contributes knowledge and experience (when he's not stirring  ) - like so many on this forum. So, be careful.


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## BentMikey (17 Dec 2010)

That's a good post wrt the attention to the car on the left in the minor road, Aperitif.

Can't agree on the 50/50 though - that would only be the case if there had been a single lane of standing traffic that Gaz was filtering along. The presence of a bike or bus lane completely changes that, and places all the onus on the turning driver to check that both lanes are clear. He didn't check, and just accelerated through the gap despite not being able to see down the nearside lane.


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## Spinney (17 Dec 2010)

BentMikey said:


> That's a good post wrt the attention to the car on the left in the minor road, Aperitif.
> 
> Can't agree on the 50/50 though - that would only be the case if there had been a single lane of standing traffic that Gaz was filtering along. The presence of a bike or bus lane completely changes that, and places all the onus on the turning driver to check that both lanes are clear. He didn't check, and just accelerated through the gap despite not being able to see down the nearside lane.



Agree - Gaz was not filtering.

And the _whole point _of bus lanes is that things (buses, taxis, bicycles) _will be_ moving along them when other lanes of traffic are stationary. So the car turning right should have been even more careful than just turning right through a line of stationary traffic.


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## malkie (17 Dec 2010)

Can`t agree that this is 50/50 .

Trouble is we get so good at avoiding these muppets 999 times out of 1000 that when we don`t we end up blaming ourselves.

Victim blaming and it`s us victims doing it ... remarkable


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## magnatom (17 Dec 2010)

Hindsight - It turns average drivers/cyclists into perfect drivers/cyclists.


There is absolutely no doubt that had Gaz being cycling slower, had he been more cautious, had he taken a different route, had he realised 5 minutes into his ride that he had no shorts on and so hurried home and hid behind his sofa all day through embarrassment, etc that this incident would not have happened. It is sooooo easy for us to look at video footage and say, I would have done this, I would have done that. the truth is, you wouldn't. Because if there is one thing I have learned through collecting and publishing helmet camera footage, is that you aren't anywhere near as good as you think you are.

When it comes to fault in this incident, it is quite clear, 100% driver as the driver did not ensure that it was safe to cross the lane. As someone else has pointed out, who would have been at fault had Gaz been a bus? Does size change the burden of fault?

Glad you're ok Gaz!


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## Origamist (17 Dec 2010)

malkie said:


> Can`t agree that this is 50/50 .
> 
> Trouble is we get so good at avoiding these muppets 999 times out of 1000 that when we don`t we end up blaming ourselves.
> 
> Victim blaming and it`s us victims doing it ... remarkable



Indeed: the 50/50 liability position is bollocks, frankly. People are confusing defensive cycling and traffic cues, with insurance liability. 

Gaz was established in the bus lane and proceeding forward, the driver has a statutory duty of care to ensure that it was safe to change his/her position in the road before actually moving.


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## magnatom (17 Dec 2010)

Bird Brain said:


> Now this is where it gets silly.



Not really, I'm illustrating a valid point. by caricature. 

On my oil tanker video I had people suggest that all cyclists should stop before entering roundabouts that I should always slow down to an almost standstill on roundabouts, that I should cycle slowly around the edge of roundabouts, all of which might well of prevented my incident. Yet, I can assure you the tanker driver was 100% at fault. 

The same applies here.


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## SavageHoutkop (17 Dec 2010)

Bird Brain said:


> I never at any time said stop,perhaps slow down yes.



Looking at the footage, I'm not sure that slowing down would have helped. That car was obscured from view until it was too late, and I think it would have been too late at any speed. I probably cycle a lot slower than Gaz does and that car would have hit me if I'd been in that lane.

I would probably have slowed anyway in anticipation of the white van with its indicator on deciding to take a run for it in the bus lane (perhaps they behave a bit better in London with that type of thing, but in Manchester I'd expect it); but that wouldn't have avoided the collision. 

Re apportioning blame to Gaz, I just don't see it. As others have said, what if he was a bus?


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## addictfreak (17 Dec 2010)

First off, glad to hear your ok Gaz. Hows the bike?

That is almost a carbon copy of my mates accident about 6 weeks ago. Unfortunately he is still off work and having big problems with a shoulder injury.

The driver in his case was charged with driving without due care.


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## Sh4rkyBloke (17 Dec 2010)

Bl**dy car drivers!! 

Glad to hear you're okay Gaz. Should have no problems with a claim as the driver is, as I'm sure you're aware, 100% at fault for crossing a lane of traffic (not just a pithy cycle lane attached to the side of the road, a whole f*cking bus lane!!!!) without ensuring it was safe to do so.

Goes to show how quickly these things happen... be careful out there everyone!


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## magnatom (17 Dec 2010)

[QUOTE 1270039"]
Not being funny but I am though, straight away I saw the car with it's LHS indicator and the car up ahead looking to turn right - but that's just me.

Maybe it's six years of HGV driving that have perfected what was already extremely good riding with respect to riding defensively.
[/quote]

Ah, you're one of the 80% who think they are above average...


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## Alien8 (17 Dec 2010)

What if it were a bus? What's that got to do with anything?


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## Jezston (17 Dec 2010)

Did I get a post deleted in this thread or did I just forget to hit 'post'?


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## GrumpyGregry (17 Dec 2010)

Gaz

if it is any consolation I once had almost the exact same thing happen whilst riding a motorbike some years ago. (except I was in a filter lane not a bus lane) some BMF/AIM friends suggested a more defensive approach WOULD have avoided it, I countered that it only COULD have done so, as the only thing that would have avoided it was my having stayed in bed that morning. 

As in your case the driver was looking for a bus, probably a double decker, and nothing else. Had you/I been driving a cab the damage to his car would have been considerable. In my case the large expensive italian motorcycle bounced, nay cartwheeled, off the car turning across me and hit/went through the drivers door area of the car waiting at the give way. It put the driver of that car in hospital alongside me, wrote itself off and did considerable damage to that car.

The insurers and police deemed all liability was with the twonk who tried to cross the filter lane without looking having been flashed by wvm.

50/50? in your dreams!


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## gaz (17 Dec 2010)

As i said before, people are entitled to there opinion, so lets not turn this into a slagging match.

I put in the video description last night, that on a better day i probably would have seen this coming. And i'll stand by that, i would have seen that gap develop and slowed down. But all it takes is for you to miss that gap because you are watching someone else, such as the white van indicating left at the start or the car looking to pull out of the side road, and you have been hit as i did. I wouldn't say i'm 50% at fault, as that would suggest i did something wrong on the road, which i don't feel like i did. I'll stand by what i said, i could have read the road better. but i will also point out that we are not all 100% perfect and missing this tiny detail will cause something like this to happen.

I've looked over my bike, and the only damage i can see is the front wheel. Quite badly buckled that it won't freely move at any point but thats due to my mudguards. I expect it will be a new wheel. I can't see any damage to the frame but thats probably due to some heavy cosmetic damage to my pedals.

As for after the incident. The driver was extremely shocked, he said nothing to me but thats partly down to him not speaking any english. At first i wasn't going to call the police, as i thought i could ride my bike home if i removed my mudguard. But when i found out he didn't speak english and i wasn't sure he would report this to the police station even though i said he should, i had to call the police.

The police turned up and everything was by the book after that. A witness (the car driver pulling out of the side road) who originally drove off but came back, gave his statement, and all 3 of our statements matched. And all the statements match the video.
I did request for an ambulance to come when i rang the police, due to the adrenaline at the time i had no pain but being in this situation before i know how quickly things can become painful. BUT the ambulance was going to take around 2 hours to come as all of them where already out on call and there where lots of jobs backed up. I asked the police officer just to cancel it as i didn't want to wait and i could tell by then that i didn't have any serious injuries.

Last night all that was painful was my forearm where it hit his engine block though his bonnet. But today my lower back is hurting quite a bit. I've tried to book an appointment with my doctor but everything is fully booked until monday, i will explained to them what happened and i will keep trying with them to see if someone has cancelled.

At present i don't want to go to hospital, as i know i'll be sitting there for 3hours + if it gets any worse i can go to the NHS walk in clinic near to me.


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## Ravenbait (17 Dec 2010)

Just found this. Can't see the video at the moment, but glad you're okay. I'm not going to get involved in any pointless debate about who was at fault. What's improtant right now is that you're not seriously hurt.

But I just need to check... Your arm went through the bonnet? Are you made of adamantium, dude? What, did you put a massive dent in it or did it rip right through?

My brain is boggling.

Sam


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## Jezston (17 Dec 2010)

[QUOTE 1270043"]
You had a post deleted, I don't like being labelled something when I am not.
[/quote]

LOL. Well, I suppose I was being one myself there so fair enough. 

Gaz - good luck getting it all sorted. 2 hours for an ambulance?!? Damn good thing you weren't seriously hurt! Was the driver licensed, insured etc? Do you know if he was charged with anything, or does that get decided later?


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## gaz (17 Dec 2010)

Ravenbait said:


> Just found this. Can't see the video at the moment, but glad you're okay. I'm not going to get involved in any pointless debate about who was at fault. What's improtant right now is that you're not seriously hurt.
> 
> But I just need to check... Your arm went through the bonnet? Are you made of adamantium, dude? What, did you put a massive dent in it or did it rip right through?
> 
> ...



Bonnets are designed to have some flex, so if a pedestrian gets hit it absorbs some of the pressure and hopefully they get less injuries. But all my weight went on the bonnet and my arm made contact with the engine block underneath.


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## magnatom (17 Dec 2010)

gaz said:


> Last night all that was painful was my forearm where it hit his engine block though his bonnet. But today my lower back is hurting quite a bit. I've tried to book an appointment with my doctor but everything is fully booked until monday, i will explained to them what happened and i will keep trying with them to see if someone has cancelled.
> 
> At present i don't want to go to hospital, as i know i'll be sitting there for 3hours + if it gets any worse i can go to the NHS walk in clinic near to me.



Just remember to log everything and take photos of any bruising. I take it you weren't cycling today?!


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## BentMikey (17 Dec 2010)

magnatom said:


> Ah, you're one of the 80% who think they are above average...



Well, having ridden with both of them, I think Lee is a good rider, but not at Gaz's standard. It's also really funny that Lee thinks he'd have spotted that - easy when watching afterwards on film isn't it!

The truth is that I feel Lee took a lot of risks when I rode with him, whilst Gaz is a conservative and careful rider. If Gaz didn't manage to avoid this one, in my mind there's a good chance that in the same situation Lee would have had a faster and more damaging crash.

Lee, I think that you're not only a hypocrite but you're behaving badly on this topic.


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## Origamist (17 Dec 2010)

Alien8 said:


> What if it were a bus? What's that got to do with anything?



The mode of transport established and proceeding in the bus lane is moot (as long as it was allowed in the bus lane) as is the mode of transport that turns across the path of the bus (cycle, car, van, HGV etc). However, some cyclists take a harder line on their fellow cyclists, regardless of who is liable. 

Victim blaming is comforting for us skilled, defensive, quick-witted Cycle Chat cyclists as it helps us to convince ourselves that we, in a similar situation, would have been able to avoid the collision. When we're on the bike we know we're vulnerable, but seeing another cyclist crash makes us feel even more vulnerable on the roads - so what do we do? We try to convince ourselves that in identical circumstances we would have been capable of exercising forethought, sound judgment and defensive riding skills - this results in diminished perceptions of vulnerability and we jump back on our bike...


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## jdrussell (17 Dec 2010)

good to hear you are ok, get well soon !

<div><br></div><div>(edited to add first person)</div>


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## gaz (17 Dec 2010)

magnatom said:


> Just remember to log everything and take photos of any bruising. I take it you weren't cycling today?!



That was my last commute of this year, but i expect i won't be getting on the bike for a while now anyway.


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## BentMikey (17 Dec 2010)

You at work today Gaz? I would hope you took the day sick and are recovering at home.


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## gaz (17 Dec 2010)

BentMikey said:


> You at work today Gaz? I would hope you took the day sick and are recovering at home.



Off now till the 4th of jan.


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## BentMikey (17 Dec 2010)

p.s. which bike was it?


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## Sh4rkyBloke (17 Dec 2010)

[QUOTE 1270057"]
That's simply rubbish and I don't think I would have somehow. I've been in Gaz's situation many times and each time I've *not so much slowed down but been aware and covered the brakes*.

As for the second part of your post - humour me. How am I being a hypocrite and how am I behaving badly on this thread?
[/quote]

Even with covered brakes and slamming them on when he saw the car he'd have had no chance of avoiding it within the distance he has available.


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## benb (17 Dec 2010)

People seem to be getting very confused.

Yes, maybe Gaz could have avoided it (and on another day he may well have). That doesn't make the incident even 1% his fault.

If someone took a short cut through a dark alley and got mugged, is that 50/50 their fault?


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## Ravenbait (17 Dec 2010)

gaz said:


> Bonnets are designed to have some flex, so if a pedestrian gets hit it absorbs some of the pressure and hopefully they get less injuries. But all my weight went on the bonnet and my arm made contact with the engine block underneath.



Dude, you are well hard. Respect! You win the Juggernaut Prize, previously known as the Thulsa Doom Award, given to those who demonstrate the power of flesh to destroy property.

(Someone else will have to link to the well-known viral videon on YouTube in order to present Gaz with his well-deserved prize, because I can't from here.)

Sam


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## BentMikey (17 Dec 2010)

Yeah, Gaz is almost as hard as my mate Evil Alan, destroyer of taxis. Although in this case, I believe it was entirely Alan's fault. Bombing down Pentonville Rise, on skates, at 30mph, and the lights went red. He thought there was a gap alongside the taxi, and there wasn't. He left a very large Alan shaped dent in the door. The Cabbie got out, white and shaking. Alan paid for it mind.


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## magnatom (17 Dec 2010)

[QUOTE 1270057"]
That's simply rubbish and I don't think I would have somehow. I've been in Gaz's situation many times and each time I've not so much slowed down but been aware and covered the brakes.

[/quote]

Lee, BM's version of what would have happened to you is just as valid as your version of what would have happened, that is, neither is valid. By that I come back again to hindsight. We all underestimate its power and how empowering it can be to have it at our disposal. There is no way in the world you can transport yourself into that situation and know what you would have done. 

For all you know you may have been distracted by the indicating vehicles, you might have noticed a bit of ice on the road, you might have just remembered that you'd left the gas on, you might have noticed a spectacular offer in one of the shop windows, you might have noticed the dancing monkey etc. 

(Yes its another caricature...)


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## Origamist (17 Dec 2010)

magnatom said:


> For all you know you may have been distracted by the indicating vehicles, you might have noticed a bit of ice on the road, you might have just remembered that you'd left the gas on, you might have noticed a spectacular offer in one of the shop windows, you might have noticed the dancing monkey etc.
> 
> (Yes its another caricature...)



They're not "caricatures" as you put it, Mags. Gaz could have just checked his shoulder, looked down for potholes, spotted pedestrian movement to his left, wiped snow from his eyes, had issues with glare etc etc. I'm not saying any of these possibilites played a part, but we should not forget that our brains are tying to make sense of competing stimuli *and *prioritise accordingly. When we know what's happened we can easily stitch things together and forget about other factors that might have played a part at the time, but cannot be so easily dismissed when you're *actually* cycling as opposed to watching 720 vids at home.

Watching a vid over and over again allows you to piece cues and clues together - in real time, in a dynamic traffic situation you will not always get it right; as a cyclist  human being you *must * expect a degree of cognitive failure or overload, no matter how defensively you think you ride. If anyone thinks otherwise, they're deluding themselves.


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## BentMikey (17 Dec 2010)

Jezston said:


> Did I get a post deleted in this thread or did I just forget to hit 'post'?



I saw the post that was removed, and I think that's unacceptable moderation since the post was mild and inoffensive, and also completely true IMO.

Why do the moderators have this apparent bias in favour of Lee? I'm sceptical of your fairness.


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## Origamist (17 Dec 2010)

[QUOTE 1270066"]
Not at all, if all else fails reduce your speed which gives you more time to react. And if you can;t see a car 40 yards ahead with the front already over the give way markings therefore giving a strong intention that they intend to pull out then that is a problem.
[/quote]

You've missed the point, Lee - people are fallible (they miss cues or wrongly prioritise them) - even you.


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## StuartG (17 Dec 2010)

Dare I say there is a lot of confusion about who was in the right and commentary on Gaz's riding style.

Right is what you need in court. It isn't what you need in hospital. This is a case where the driver is clearly in the wrong. But does that give riders cart blanche to ride anyway they want provided it is within the law?

I believe not. That car could just as easily have been a kid running between stationary vehicles (or being waved across by the white van driver). The kid would have been in the wrong and the ratio of damage may well have been reversed. Do we have no responsibility as opposed to blame there?

IMHO the opening up of the road by the introduction of bus lanes has been probably the greatest thing to have happened to bike commuting in London. But I fear it does give a false sense of security to riders which results in speeds I find disturbing. And like motorists on a motorway it is hard to resist the peer pressure of faster riders. None of us like being zapped. And we want to get to work fast and the whole point to many of us is it is faster than by car (or public transport).

Speeds have crept up. I would argue that 40 years ago Gaz's speed may have been seen as excessive (albeit with no bus lane he would be cruising down the centreline). Nowadays many of you including Gaz would see it as normal, nay even conservative. But the risks of unexpected vehicles/pedestrians crossing your path are not a lot different.

And that's the point. We all want to be cycling in 40 years time. Being safe (and maybe a bit slower) rather than right may be the determinant.


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## BentMikey (17 Dec 2010)

Even Lee, LOL? When I rode with him, he took waaay more chances than I've ever seen Gaz take. Besides, Gaz has far more riding experience than Lee, I think.


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## Origamist (17 Dec 2010)

[QUOTE 1270070"]
When?
[/quote]

My mistake, Lee is infallible.


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## e-rider (17 Dec 2010)

hope no lasting injuries result from this crash

the crash was clearly 100% the fault of the driver.

someone cycling at 7mph might have avoided it but that doesn't really change anything - Gaz did nothing wrong and the driver is clearly to blame for crossing the bus lane without looking. If Gaz was a Bus there would have been a bigger crash!


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## Origamist (17 Dec 2010)

StuartG said:


> Dare I say there is a lot of confusion about who was in the right and commentary on Gaz's riding style.



You can, as I and a few others have made precisely that point!


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## Bollo (17 Dec 2010)

magnatom said:


> Ah, you're one of the 80% who think they are above average...



AKA the Lake Wobegon effect 

Having been there, I'd agree with maggers and O that hindsight is a wonderful, rose-tinted, time-travelling X-ray thing. Saying that you would have avoided that incident is like me watching Lost In Translation and then describing what I'd do to Scarlett Johansson if I'd have played the aging actor instead of Bill Murray. Irrelevant, pointless, wishful thinking and not in great taste.


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## BentMikey (17 Dec 2010)

I've answered them both at least twice, Lee. I thought you had an IQ of 133, else you'd know that too. You're starting to act like a troll again, completely justifying Jezston's post.


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## mgarl10024 (17 Dec 2010)

Just spotted this thread, and feared the worst. 
Am relieved to hear that Gaz is ok, as where would I be without his silly-cyclist videos.


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## Banjo (17 Dec 2010)

Glad your injuries werent too bad GAZ get well soon.

IMHO Gaz was riding in acordance to the highway code perfectly legally in a bus lane. The car crossed that lane without checking so should be fully liable and 100% responsible for the accident.

BUT in that situation the presence of the van should have set alarm bells ringing in Gazs head. It was obvious he would have been invisible to drivers of anything coming across from the right, 

I am not claiming I would have done any better hopefully we can all learn something from the video.


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## Flying_Monkey (17 Dec 2010)

Glad you're okay, Gaz... 

And, the 'fault' lies squarely with the driver. Sure, one can always hope to anticipate the idiocy of others and we all try, but the fact that we are not perfect at doing so, does not makes us morally or legally to blame... someone turning across two lanes of traffic must make sure that both lanes are safe to cross. In this case, the driver had no clear view of the second lane, but decided to take a chance. That's a chance he's taking with other people's lives. 


... although, clearly if you'd had better lights, the driver would have seen you.










Seriously, very glad you came out of this alive and reasonably well.


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## BentMikey (17 Dec 2010)

Hey Gaz, could you tell us a bit about whether the driver noticed your camera? Did you try to film his face for identification, and film everything around to record it?

What did the police have to say about your footage?


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## arallsopp (17 Dec 2010)

Really sorry to read this, Gaz. Hope you make a swift recovery.


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## thomas (17 Dec 2010)

As I said on youtube, get better! Sounds like you're ok and will be riding soon so that's great 

This accident was completely the driver's fault. They should of checked the bus lane was clear before driving across. Even if you were filtering through the cars it would still be their fault imo.

From a arm chair (or hungover in bed) critic, I would say that in the future it might be wise to look across junctions like this before proceeding. I know it's probably a faff in London, but got to be worth it! I know on one of the police motorbike training videos I watched before doing my CBT it showed them slowing or stopping at junctions when they couldn't see if someone was going to do something silly like what happened to you.

I'm not saying stop at every junction and check, but just make sure that someone doesn't do something like this to you again!

Anyway, those views aren't blaming you at all. This was completely the drivers fault for not checking it was safe to go. All this 50/50 is nonsense!!


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## Origamist (17 Dec 2010)

Bollo said:


> AKA the Lake Wobegon effect
> 
> Having been there, I'd agree with maggers and O that hindsight is a wonderful, rose-tinted, time-travelling X-ray thing. *Saying that you would have avoided that incident is like me watching Lost In Translation and then describing what I'd do to Scarlett Johansson if I'd have played the aging actor instead of Bill Murray*. Irrelevant, pointless, wishful thinking and not in great taste.




Missed this. I imagine in my case, premature ejac.....ohhh, not in great taste, sorry.


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## Tynan (17 Dec 2010)

if you allow for cars turning right through gaps in traffic then you might as well get off and push, there's so much stopped traffic, so many turnings, so many cars turning through traffic without bothering to allow for cycles that you've have to slow down to a crawl endlessly

I do my best to open the gap by moving to the left, slowing a bit but you simply can't protect yourself every time, sometimes a gap opens and someone turns through it at speed at once, perhaps triggered by a nod from the driver that you can't see

it's a terrible maneuver and I have no idea how any sensible driver can possibly justify it, it's the single accident that I dread, one that i at least feel you can;t avoid when the circumstances align against you


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## Lizban (17 Dec 2010)

Drivers fault and it also highlights why we all should be careful in bus lanes by junctions. Defensive cycling can help but sometime it's just that your luck is out.

Most importantly I hope Gaz is recovering well.


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## gaz (17 Dec 2010)

Flying_Monkey said:


> ... although, clearly if you'd had better lights, the driver would have seen you.


As it is, the driver said he wasn't sure if i had lights on, but this is just down to how fast it happened and how you forget certain things in stressful situations. I said to the police officer that i haven't touched my lights since we collided. Do you think i had enough? he sniggered. I had my steady helmet light on and a flasher and constant light on my handle bars. and 2 steady and 3 flashing lights on the rear (not that they apply in this case)





BentMikey said:


> Hey Gaz, could you tell us a bit about whether the driver noticed your camera? Did you try to film his face for identification, and film everything around to record it?
> 
> What did the police have to say about your footage?


I got clear images of his face on camera but i could have got a better shot of the crash scene. You can just see how his car was and where my bike was lying.

The police that came to the scene weren't traffic, which was a shame, but they where interested in the video and my whole setup. Unfortunately we couldn't view the footage there and then. They put it in the notes that i have CCTV evidence so hopefully it gets passed to traffic and they will want to see it. It would be interesting if it went to the head office in fulham and i get one of the traffic officers dealing with it that work on road safe london. But i expect it will either go to croydon or catford.


In answer to your previous question, it was my genesis day one.


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## perplexed (17 Dec 2010)

Spinney said:


> Agree - Gaz was not filtering.
> 
> And the _whole point _of bus lanes is that things (buses, taxis, bicycles) _will be_ moving along them when other lanes of traffic are stationary. So the car turning right should have been even more careful than just turning right through a line of stationary traffic.




This is the thing. Gaz was behaving himself and minding his own business.

The car driver just went for it without being able to see properly because the vans in his sight line.

Your average taxi driver would have been going down there at a fair rate of knots. That would have made a big bang.

Drivers fault.


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## 400bhp (17 Dec 2010)

Tynan said:


> if you allow for cars turning right through gaps in traffic then you might as well get off and push



Exactly.

Drivers fault - he should have been edging across but didn't.

Anyway, that's not the point. Gaz is OK and lives to tell the tale.

Accidents do happen. I suspect more than half of all drivers do the same kind of thing when crossing traffic.


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## 400bhp (17 Dec 2010)

It's an interesting point though. Does the risk of cycling in a bus lane such as that outweigh the benefit?

Is it worth filtering on the right??

Don't know as I don't know the roads involved.


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## Sh4rkyBloke (17 Dec 2010)

400bhp said:


> It's an interesting point though. Does the risk of cycling in a bus lane such as that outweigh the benefit?
> 
> *Is it worth filtering on the right??*
> 
> Don't know as I don't know the roads involved.



IMO I'd say not - you have to keep an eye both on the traffic you are overtaking (u-turns / right turns / letting traffic out from side roads etc.) as well as being wary of oncoming traffic which may have to alter their line to overtake parked cars / cyclists etc. I'd also be inclined to think that you'd have less of a leg to stand on if you are involved in a similar type of accident (with traffic pulling out in front of you to join the oncoming traffc from a side road perhaps) due to your position too. 

The bus lane is wide, used by other vehicles and should therefore be safer in terms of people checking what's in it before they cross/use it. As can be seen though, not every driver checks.


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## dellzeqq (17 Dec 2010)

benb said:


> People seem to be getting very confused.
> 
> Yes, maybe Gaz could have avoided it (and on another day he may well have). That doesn't make the incident even 1% his fault.
> 
> If someone took a short cut through a dark alley and got mugged, is that 50/50 their fault?


thankyou. It's taken me a while to get to this, but it was worth the trawl. The law can do with the fault thing. The 'could Gaz have done anything different' bit is a different thing entirely.

Which junction was this on Gaz?


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## dellzeqq (17 Dec 2010)

400bhp said:


> It's an interesting point though. Does the risk of cycling in a bus lane such as that outweigh the benefit?
> 
> Is it worth filtering on the right??
> 
> Don't know as I don't know the roads involved.


No and no is the short answer.

the longer answer is that they vary. The layout of the A23 (which was, I think, the road that Gaz was on) restricts visiblity. There are more side streets, and, therefore, more turning across, than the adjacent A24/A3/CS7. If there's a traffic jam on the A23 I will crawl down the bus lane (this is an out-and-out lie, but it's one I repeat to Susie frequently), whereas I feel free to pound along almost all of the A24, however thick the traffic. I'd never right filter down the A23 (that bit is true).

(Gaz will probably react to this by saying that Streathamudlians are just naturally thick, and should not be used for reproductive purposes, but, Gaz, if we are so thick, why do you traverse our fine suburb?)

And get well soon


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## gaz (17 Dec 2010)

dellzeqq said:


> thankyou. It's taken me a while to get to this, but it was worth the trawl. The law can do with the fault thing. The 'could Gaz have done anything different' bit is a different thing entirely.
> 
> Which junction was this on Gaz?


Hobart road (sp). The one opposite the ice rink or the first left after the traffic lights by the train station when travelling south.


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## dellzeqq (17 Dec 2010)

Oh - and I've no problem with Lee's cycling. Other than when I'm chasing him down at five in the morning.


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## BentMikey (17 Dec 2010)

I think the bus lane is usually the better option than filtering on the offside, 400bhp. Those of us who ride in London go through thousands of situations similar to this, although mostly with no contact.


Here's one I had, with the driver looking down in his footwell, which explains why he could not see a MaXx-D 4 x 3W front LED headlight on flash:

[media]
]View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVFAyNaozCo[/media]


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## BentMikey (17 Dec 2010)

dellzeqq said:


> Oh - and I've no problem with Lee's cycling. Other than when I'm chasing him down at five in the morning.



Oh, I did say he's a good cyclist, didn't I? He's just rather more of a riskophile than Gaz, making his comments on here ill-judged and hypocritical I think.


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## gaz (17 Dec 2010)

dellzeqq said:


> (Gaz will probably react to this by saying that Streathamudlians are just naturally thick, and should not be used for reproductive purposes, but, Gaz, if we are so thick, why do you traverse our fine suburb?)
> 
> And get well soon


Are Croydonians any smarter?
Unfortunately streatham neighbours the amazing Croydon. And if I want to head into central London, it is the fastest way. Otherwise I avoid at all costs


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## dellzeqq (17 Dec 2010)

Hopton Road? Just around the corner. You should have popped in for tea.

I know this will all sound a bit far-fetched to some of you, but there is, in my opinion, a character to some roads. Whether it's because Streatham High Road is so jammed up so much of the time, or whether it is because the populace aren't that bright, or whether there are so few cyclists on the road (compared to the A24) cyclists don't seem to figure in the imagination of drivers turning right - indeed drivers, taken as a whole, seem just a few spark plugs short of a cylinder block. 

Tarte Tatin was 'right-hooked' outside Norbury Station.

I genuinely do take it much, much easier along parts of Streatham High Road than I do on (say) Clapham Road.


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## As Easy As Riding A Bike (17 Dec 2010)

Out of curiosity, are motorbikes allowed to use this bus lane? I shudder to think of the consequences of the same collision occurring with a motorbike travelling at a slightly higher speed than Gaz. 

And - without wishing to delve too much into stereotypes - I would echo the question raised by someone above, about what kind of licence this guy held, given his complete lack of English.


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## dellzeqq (17 Dec 2010)

gaz said:


> Are Croydonians any smarter?
> Unfortunately streatham neighbours the amazing Croydon. And if I want to head into central London, it is the fastest way. Otherwise I avoid at all costs


it's a close-run thing. On average I'd say that our knuckles are a little closer to the ground. And our eyebrows that little bit more mono.


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## dellzeqq (17 Dec 2010)

WheelyGoodFun said:


> Out of curiosity, are motorbikes allowed to use this bus lane? I shudder to think of the consequences of the same collision occurring with a motorbike travelling at a slightly higher speed than Gaz.
> 
> And - without wishing to delve too much into stereotypes - I would echo the question raised by someone above, about what kind of licence this guy held, given his complete lack of English.


Well, a high proportion of Streatham Vale residents have little or no English. And, since a lot of them drive mini-cabs, it may be that they have licenses.

Motorbikes are a boon on the A23 bus lane. They enable one to travel at a steady 29mph at some fifteen yards behind them. It works for me. As in it really has worked for me. Keerrrr-annngggg. 

I entirely appreciate that a lot of cyclists don't want them in the bus lanes, and I'd support that entirely, but if you want to travel quickly then they offer that little bit of front-facing protection.


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## As Easy As Riding A Bike (17 Dec 2010)

What I meant was whether it is even possible to get a UK driving licence if you can't speak English? The examiner will be telling you what to do - if you can't understand him/her, it's going to be a little difficult. Ditto the theory test.


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## campbellab (17 Dec 2010)

You dont always need to requalify with a UK license, definitely not if you are european, and you can have international ones transferred?


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## gaz (17 Dec 2010)

dellzeqq said:


> Hopton Road? Just around the corner. You should have popped in for tea.
> 
> I know this will all sound a bit far-fetched to some of you, but there is, in my opinion, a character to some roads. Whether it's because Streatham High Road is so jammed up so much of the time, or whether it is because the populace aren't that bright, or whether there are so few cyclists on the road (compared to the A24) cyclists don't seem to figure in the imagination of drivers turning right - indeed drivers, taken as a whole, seem just a few spark plugs short of a cylinder block.
> 
> ...



As you live in the area, you are clearly aware of the cycling traffic numbers through streatham. It is very low in comparison to other main roads in the surrounding area. And i think this has a big part to play in this.
As you say/do, in this area i take a little bit more ease as i know these things can happen and drivers won't think about cyclists if there isn't one wizzing past every 10 seconds. But it wasn't enough ease in this case to make a difference.


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## dellzeqq (17 Dec 2010)

well, if the mini-cab drivers have licenses it must be possible - somehow. 

(I suppose it could be the case that the driver's lack of English was affected, at least in part).


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## Dan B (17 Dec 2010)

I'd be surprised if you can't arrange to have an interpreter present when you sit your driving test


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## benb (17 Dec 2010)

dellzeqq said:


> I suppose it could be the case that the driver's lack of English was affected, at least in part



Affected by what?


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## StuartG (17 Dec 2010)

coruskate said:


> I'd be surprised if you can't arrange to have an interpreter present when you sit your driving test


I guess Welsh speakers can take the test in Welsh (in Wales). BSL folks also get licences so speaking English is not a strict requirement. Also my command of Spanish, French & Serbo-Croat may possibly desert me if I prang over there! ...


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## Aperitif (17 Dec 2010)

> And - without wishing to delve too much into stereotypes - I would echo the question raised by someone above, about what kind of licence this guy held, given his complete lack of English.



If the guy had decanted from his vehicle and asked "I say old boy, are you ok?" Gaz would have held him at arm's length while he described youtube in detail..!


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## Amanda P (17 Dec 2010)

BentMikey said:


> Here's one I had, with the driver looking down in his footwell, which explains why he could not see a MaXx-D 4 x 3W front LED headlight on flash:



That video, and Gaz's, point out clearly to me the extra nuisance of drivers exiting from turns to the left not stopping at the stop line but waiting half-way out into the nearside lane. One more hazard to be avoided, and one which forces a cyclist towards the outside of the lane, where they're more vulnerable to numpties approaching from the right - where they can't always be seen.

If it's hard to see out, a little "creep 'n' peep" is OK, but in neither video was it hard to see out. They just couldn't be bothered to stop where they should.

Bad luck Gaz. Hope you get back on the bike right soon.


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## cyberknight (17 Dec 2010)

Just seen this as i am on night shift.

Wishing you a speedy recovery !!

And sod Gaz he can heal is the bike ok? .

From the clip i would say its the drivers fault, he could not see if the route was clear and would probably have hit a bus if it had been there, i am sure gaz was cycling responsibly.


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## ttcycle (17 Dec 2010)

Only just seen this mate - Gaz hope you have a speedy recovery


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## Tollers (17 Dec 2010)

As for apportioning blame. Gaz it's clearly your fault as you had the perfect opportunity to look cool by bunny hopping over his bonnet  Perhaps we need some jump ramps in cycle lanes before each junction? 

Hope the back's ok.

M


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## As Easy As Riding A Bike (17 Dec 2010)

Bird Brain said:


> Christ knows.



Let me remind you. It flows directly from your claim that the accident was a "50/50". 

Someone was asking you whether - if the driver in question had, without checking whether the bus lane was clear, turned across the path of a bus driving along it, and had been smashed into - you would still maintain it was a "50/50".

Would you?


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## As Easy As Riding A Bike (17 Dec 2010)

Bird Brain said:


> Gaz was hidden from the car and vice versa.(by the van) That's why I say 50/50.



Utter tripe.


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## BentMikey (17 Dec 2010)

When a vehicle is turning right across three lanes of traffic, Hackers, who is supposed to give way? The oncoming traffic, or the vehicle turning right?


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## downfader (17 Dec 2010)

Bird Brain said:


> Christ knows.




Not really. There is just as much danger to drivers from buses. Taking a turn across a junction like that is immesurably stupid and wreckless. Many years back I saw a bus sat on top of a car bonet where a driver made a similar mistake (the road layout as it had been is now different so unfortunately I cant show you on google streetview the viewpoint of the driver)

A car with a low seating position will not be able to see over a transit van to see oncoming cyclists, motorcyclists and yes even single decker and low profile buses. Motorised buslane users will be doing between 20-25mph on average, and with a for bit of unstoppable weight behind it. A black cab is near 1 ton in weight iirc, due to the body work, disabled access etc.

He would then be facing at the least a charge of without due care for endangering not only the other driver but many passengers. I have been on a bus that has had to take such a hard brake to avoid an idiot like this, that people flew out of the chairs. I would imagine he's facing that now.

Some people here are confusing risk mitigation with fault. The driver legally and morally is responsible for ensuring that he takes the turn safely, does not force others to deviate or brake, or collide with them. Rule 180 of the Highway Code covers this. So do other aspects of it. 

People are just human beings. Gaz, the same as any other rider (whether thats me, you BB, Lee or just that bloke you often see out and about) is never going to have avoided that, all the more reason for a driver to take care in adverse conditions - the cold, dark and wet is distracting enough to drivers, let alone some cyclists.

Even if the van driver has flashed him out, it is still the responsibility of the driver who wishes to turn to make sure that it is safe to proceed. The responsibility does not pass on to the van driver, the van driver is meerly indicating to the other that "I wont advance, you can attempt a turn if you wish."

There is no insurance firm on the planet that would professionally assess that as 50/50. They may try their luck, but they know where fault lies.


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## As Easy As Riding A Bike (17 Dec 2010)

No, I'm sorry. I'm not going to respect your opinion. I respect your _right _to have an opinion, but that does not compel me to treat whatever you say with deference. 

So, to repeat - what you have written is tripe.

Two motorists are driving along a dual carriageway, side by side. Both of them have impaired visibility of the situation - perhaps because of the low sun. Driver A moves into driver B's lane, causing a collision.

According to you, this would be a "50/50" because both parties have impaired visibility.

This is complete nonsense.


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## As Easy As Riding A Bike (17 Dec 2010)

Bird Brain said:


> Im talking about this incident im not talking about other incidents.



Obviously.

I have applied your logic directly to another, hypothetical, situation. It's called an analogy. 

You think the impaired visibility of two parties automatically makes them equally responsible for a road collision, regardless of who should be giving way to who.

If you don't like me pointing out how absurd that opinion is, I suggest you change it.


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## downfader (17 Dec 2010)

WheelyGoodFun said:


> Obviously.
> 
> I have applied your logic directly to another, hypothetical, situation. It's called an analogy.
> 
> ...




LOL!! Sorry but that is brilliant!

I agree with you, if something is wrong it needs to be dissected and shown why. I think you and others on here have done well in that, though I think this is going to be like blood from a stone..


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## addictfreak (17 Dec 2010)

If it was me cycling along the bus lane, I would like to think I would anticipate this kind of thing happening. But as Gaz said the gap opened quite quickly and the offending vehicle came through *without due care *and Gaz was unable to stop in time. 
IMHO not Gaz's fault at all and certainly not 50/50.


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## As Easy As Riding A Bike (17 Dec 2010)

Bird Brain said:


> I couldn't care less.Im not changing it for you.



That's fine by me. Probably not so great for the people who might be sharing the road with you.

I'll certainly be steering well clear of "Trafalgar Square".


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## As Easy As Riding A Bike (17 Dec 2010)

Bird Brain said:


> I don't get how because im rating it as 50/50 that is worse for everybody who shares the road with me when im trying my utmost to avoid this or any other sort of incident.




Quite simple.


It is because you think that someone who moves across, or into, another lane without being able to see whether or not it is clear to do so, is as equally culpable for the resulting collision as the innocent person they hit, if that person's visibility is also impaired.


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## Tollers (17 Dec 2010)

I think the most constructive action moving forward will be to put both Gaz and the driver on trial. Death by cyclechat....the charge? Failure to Bunnyhop


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## gaz (17 Dec 2010)

Tollers said:


> I think the most constructive action moving forward will be to put both Gaz and the driver on trial. Death by cyclechat....the charge? Failure to Bunnyhop



Before i am sentenced to that, i want to see you bunny hop over a moving car on your road bike!


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## Tollers (17 Dec 2010)

gaz said:


> Before i am sentenced to that, i want to see you bunny hop over a moving car on your road bike!



Hehehehe. If Danny MacAskill can. So can Gaz  That's be seriously impressive from the helmetcam!


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## dellzeqq (17 Dec 2010)

BentMikey said:


> When a vehicle is turning right across three lanes of traffic, Hackers, who is supposed to give way? The oncoming traffic, or the vehicle turning right?


we know that it's the numpty turning from the right. But, as Downfader and Ben point out, fault is one thing and practice another. I find these videos difficult to interpret, so I'm not for a second suggesting that Gaz was overdoing it.

But, and you'll be absolutely shocked to read this, BM, but there are times when I whizz along bus lanes at a rate of knots. I take a chance. If some idiot turns right across me and I go in to his or her car I'll be thinking two things

a) 'what a tosser - revenge will be mine!'
b) 'whoops, that was a mistake!'

(actually, when I went over the front of a taxi my first thought was '**** me this is spectacular - I hope somebody's watching!'


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## 400bhp (17 Dec 2010)

Bird Brain said:


> Probably because if the bus couldn't stop he'd probably have been going too fast.



Another one on here to put in the low IQ box.


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## GrasB (17 Dec 2010)

A little late to the party but GWS Gaz & glad you seem to have escaped with only minor injuries.

As for the bunny hopping a road bike, over it might be a push. However you should be able to bump up onto bonnet then gracefully drop off the other side & nonchalantly ride away as though it was nothing a bit like this...


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## BentMikey (17 Dec 2010)

BentMikey said:


> When a vehicle is turning right across three lanes of traffic, Hackers, who is supposed to give way? The oncoming traffic, or the vehicle turning right?




Come on Hackers/Bird Brain, which one is it?


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## Moderators (17 Dec 2010)

OK everrbody, cut out the personal insults. If it carries on then the thread will be locked.
Please keep the thread on topic.


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## Bollo (17 Dec 2010)

Bird Brain said:


> <br />I'd put you in the dickhead box.<br />


I thought dickheads came in a tube?


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## 400bhp (17 Dec 2010)

Bird Brain said:


> I'd put you in the dickhead box.



Point proved.


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## downfader (17 Dec 2010)

Bird Brain said:


> Not quite.He diidn't see Gaz but we don't actually know why?
> 
> Did he look or didn't he look? *(1)
> *
> ...




1 Could be target fixation, could be other issues, only through talking to the driver will the Police find out. We can but speculate and its now down to Plod.

2 As above, he could have been completely focussed on the gap and the destination rather that being safe. With situations/drivers like that you're never going to win, just be glad the chances of it happening are so slim. 

3 I would seriously disagree that Gaz was rushing. Compare and contrast to other riders I have seen in the cold, dark and wet (youtube and in real life) and that was pretty sedate riding. Knowing his camera I'd say he was sub-20mph, pos. 15. By my own strada in those conditions I average 10-15mph to increase braking capacity and give myself time to assess hazards. In the dry and the day I could double that average when I feel its safe...

(Gaz, what did your Garmin say, if it was in use?)

4 Exactly. You can take all the safety measures you like, the only thing that would ever stop this is complete removal from cycling on the roads or near them. Since that aint going to happen these things will still continue.


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## HLaB (17 Dec 2010)

Jeez I'm just coming to this now, I hope you are OK Gaz?


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## PhunkPilot (17 Dec 2010)

Not getting involved as I believe the thread was started merely to inform us of Gaz's accident and for people to express their best wishes.............

Glad its not too serious Gaz. Get well soon.


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## 400bhp (17 Dec 2010)

Bird Brain said:


> You all do actually gang up on people who see it in a different way.Gang up/bully.
> 
> Things don't change on here.I have a low I.Q because I had different reasoning?
> 
> You know nothing about me.



If you talk bollox in public expect to be villified for it.

If you don't like it don't post.


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## ferret fur (17 Dec 2010)

Glad Gaz is ok:

I work in aviation. We have an ethos we work with known as a 'just safety culture' When things go wrong the idea is that we don't go around blaming everyone else & looking for scapegoats. If there is an incident then learn from it, without trying to apportion blame. Quite frankly I think this is something the forum could do with.

What you can say from this incident is that one person did something wrong: By turning across a bus lane without being able to see properly. Fine. People do that & if what the driver has done is deemed sufficiently negligent they will get charged. The question is what Gaz & the rest of us learn from it? To me this is not a completely unavoidable accident. This _does not_ mean that Gaz is in any way to blame. He was entitled to be doing what he was doing, but what I learn from this is:

1: If there is any sort of a gap in the traffic there is a risk that someone will turn through it. 
2: If there are multiple risks ahead you have to treat each one on its merits. A technique we use at work is once you have identified a hazard be aware of it but then look for the next one. Ok there are cars looking to pull out, but what else is a potential threat? 

I don't think it is enough to say that Gaz couldn't see past the van & had other things to think about therefore it was impossible to anticipate that a car might appear from the right. I suspect that 99% of us might have got caught out by what happened.. even some of the riding gods on this forum could have been distracted by the particular circumstances shown in the video. Quite frankly it doesn't really matter & it is hard to tell from a video how you might react . However we can all use Gaz's experience to better inform us what can happen out there - and it might just make us better riders.


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## gaz (17 Dec 2010)

Moderators said:


> OK everrbody, cut out the personal insults. If it carries on then the thread will be locked.
> Please keep the thread on topic.



Please do cut out the personal insults. You will gain no respect from other forum members by winning an internet argument over something fairly trivial. Be the bigger person and just let it be.

I would like to thank all of you for your wishes.


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## Flying_Monkey (17 Dec 2010)

Bird Brain said:


> I was insulted first.I shouldn't have to take this bollox.
> 
> Whether you disagree or not.



Please take the advice of the moderators. Nobody benefits from this.


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## Peter10 (17 Dec 2010)

campbellab said:


> You dont always need to requalify with a UK license, definitely not if you are european, and you can have international ones transferred?



They must apply for a UK license after 1 year on an International I believe. I'm 100% sure of that on international (unless law changed in last 6 months) not sure on EU.


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## Sheffield_Tiger (18 Dec 2010)

Bird Brain said:


> Plus how do you know the driver didn't check?
> 
> Perhaps he did and didn't see Gaz.



Then he didn't check ADEQUATELY

In fairness though Gaz should have been more defensive and left the bike at home since roads are for cars and dangerous for cyclists.

Defensive cycling to it's logical conclusion


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## Origamist (18 Dec 2010)

dellzeqq said:


> But, and you'll be absolutely shocked to read this, BM, but there are times when I whizz along bus lanes at a rate of knots. I take a chance. If some idiot turns right across me and I go in to his or her car I'll be thinking two things
> 
> a) 'what a tosser - revenge will be mine!'
> b) 'whoops, that was a mistake!'
> ...



Yep, that's pretty much my take. I know the risks; I know the cues for a potential hook, and yet I still take the odd chance - this means bonnet surfing is a possibility. 

I've watched the vid a few times now and I don't think I have learnt anything from it and I can't see my riding style changing. Like Dell, I roll the dice from time to time...


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## BentMikey (18 Dec 2010)

dellzeqq said:


> we know that it's the numpty turning from the right. But, as Downfader and Ben point out, fault is one thing and practice another. I find these videos difficult to interpret, so I'm not for a second suggesting that Gaz was overdoing it.
> 
> But, and you'll be absolutely shocked to read this, BM, but there are times when I whizz along bus lanes at a rate of knots. I take a chance. If some idiot turns right across me and I go in to his or her car I'll be thinking two things
> 
> ...



Why would I be shocked by that, LOL? It's not hypocrisy after all, not even slightly. 

I think we all take chances sometimes, and we all come across this situation thousands of times in any year of commuting in London. Where there's an occasional muppet driver that does what the one in Gaz's video does, most of us also manage to correct and avoid that driver's mistake. Not always though, and I'm not sure I could have done any better than Gaz.

My specific point was to Hackers though, who seems to be a little confused about the highway code, and the driver clearly being at fault here without the slightest of doubt. More careful and more defensive riding, as you correctly point out, is a completely different matter. OTOH, I'm sure you'll excuse my scepticism of Lee and Hackers' posts when I've seen just how risk loving they can both be.


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## Jezston (18 Dec 2010)

I like a bit of Risk, with family, round the dining table at Christmas. Much better than Monopoly.


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## 661-Pete (18 Dec 2010)

very late on this thread (yesterday was a bit of a distraction...). Take care of yourself Gaz and look after that arm (and the back, if it still hurts). Mighty glad we don't have a Gaz-less forum! 



Vikeonabike said:


> Totally Drivers fault, he has not looked to see what was coming down the bus lane, just gone for the gap, possibly been waved through but that counts for nothing!


Hesitate to argue with a copper, but doesn't waving someone through count for some of the blame, assuming it can be pinned on anyone? I remember during a driving lesson (all those years ago!) waving someone across my path, and my instructor immediately snapped at me "if you do that on the Test, instant fail!" I still do it sometimes (well we all do) but I know I could be taking a risk...



magnatom said:


> Ah, you're one of the 80% who think they are above average...


[pedant moment]"Mode", maybe, rather than "average". A bit like saying, "99.9% of people have more than the _average_ number of legs" (which is perfectly true).[/pedant moment] 




gaz said:


> Are Croydonians any smarter?
> Unfortunately streatham neighbours the amazing Croydon. And if I want to head into central London, it is the fastest way. Otherwise I avoid at all costs


Glad to hear it. Having once attempted to navigate from Croydon into Central London via NCN signage _(and getting lost in the environs of DZ's sometime alma mater..)_ I can vouch that the A23 route is the *only* way I'd try that journey - traffic or no traffic! Because I'd get hopelessly lost otherwise.


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## HLaB (18 Dec 2010)

661-Pete said:


> Hesitate to argue with a copper, but doesn't waving someone through count for some of the blame, assuming it can be pinned on anyone? I remember during a driving lesson (all those years ago!) waving someone across my path, and my instructor immediately snapped at me "if you do that on the Test, instant fail!" I still do it sometimes (well we all do) but I know I could be taking a risk...



I think the waving (flashing Not what fnarr thinks  ) is morally to blame and shouldn't do it (so yes it would be a fail) but the driver is responsible for their own actions; to put it simply its a bit like saying its not my fault the big lad told me to do it.


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## PBancroft (18 Dec 2010)

Only just seen this thread, but for more than one reason, _blimey_. People.






Gaz, you're damn lucky its not more serious, and considering the people I've seen acting like monkeys behind the wheel lately sadly there probably will be more serious incidents. Get well soon.


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## downfader (18 Dec 2010)

Just seen someone comment on another forum about this and how annoyed they were by the comments..

I go on his video's page and see stuff like this:


> you should pay for any damage to that car. you showed no sign of slowing down,driving without due care and attention,,even if it was﻿ just a bicycle you were on.I would make you pay for a full respray and I would of claimed whiplash against you.
> 
> TheSnow2day 8 hours ago





> get﻿ a car!
> 
> badboykilroy 1 hour ago


(the usual)



> that was all your﻿ fault d***head stop at junctions
> 
> Weeman44444444444444 2 hours ago





> lol, so funny, dont care﻿ who's fault.
> 
> graybum 3 hours ago





> You shouldn't be in a bus lane. you should be with the other traffic. but people like you think the roads are﻿ all yours.flying around like that.you knew the traffic had stopped but you didn't give a shoot.full pelt into a junction when you could not see what was happening .Selfish b@stardTheSnow2day 7 hours ago





> no the﻿ car driver needs compensating,the bike rider was 100% at fault for speeding down a busy road. If he hit my car I would have to get out and knock him out ...TheSnow2day 1 hour ago



TheSnow2day is obviously trolling but it winds me up that some p**** can just go online, effectively slander someone and not have some comeback. If anyone ever said such a thing to my face regarding my off from 2008 I'm afraid I would lose my temper.  Start clicking "spam" on the comments?


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## HLaB (18 Dec 2010)

downfader said:


> TheSnow2day is obviously trolling but it winds me up that some p**** can just go online, effectively slander someone and not have some comeback. If anyone ever said such a thing to my face regarding my off from 2008 I'm afraid I would lose my temper.  Start clicking "spam" on the comments?



I think you tube used to have a mark post as abusive (or was it unsuitable) but they've removed it now, it seems to be changing every 2 weeks :-(


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## downfader (18 Dec 2010)

HLaB said:


> I think you tube used to have a mark post as abusive (or was it unsuitable) but they've removed it now, it seems to be changing every 2 weeks :-(




Theres a little drop-down menu for flagging and thats it.. You can only flag for spam. 

Just got this on there:



> You speak of "onus" and "legally". Pretty﻿ sure the driver just wanted to get home asap. You also come across as a bit of an arrogant peanut, banging out your opinion at everyone who doesn't agree with it? Kinda like trolling?SozzledTerror 1 minute ago



My reply was thus:
""Arrogant" etc is your choice of words... I however can back up what I say with the highway code and the law (and a fair bit of experience). If you're wrong I will challenge you. The question is: can you prove me wrong with the Highway Code or the Road Traffic Act?
We all want to get home in those conditions, the point is we all have responsibility to do so safely. Several people on here have blamed the victim. The driver did not act with due caution."


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## gaz (18 Dec 2010)

downfader said:


> Just seen someone comment on another forum about this and how annoyed they were by the comments..



Which forum?

I've removed most of the crappy comments, kept the ones by snow w/e as they are clearly very stupid and are getting pwned.


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## thomas (18 Dec 2010)

downfader said:


> Just seen someone comment on another forum about this and how annoyed they were by the comments..
> 
> I go on his video's page and see stuff like this:
> 
> ...





I wouldn't worry. I doubt the people making those comments are old enough to drive


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## downfader (18 Dec 2010)

gaz said:


> Which forum?
> 
> I've removed most of the crappy comments, kept the ones by snow w/e as they are clearly very stupid and are getting pwned.



I think it might have been Bikeradar.. I forget now (was an hour or two back)  



thomas said:


> I wouldn't worry. I doubt the people making those comments are old enough to drive



I think we should be worried at times.. if it becomes the "accepted wisdom" to the point that insurers and the Police/Courts start to think along those lines. Perhaps that has already started to happen though.


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## PBancroft (19 Dec 2010)

OK, I've just watched the video. Now, Gaz, please don't shoot me but... I think you might be partially responsible. The gap, as you say, had only just formed however the side road had always been there, and the traffic was pushing forward and it is conceivable that one may form. The driver does not cross a solid white line, but enters the side road (admittedly across traffic). In that regard perhaps it is arguable that it is good practice to expect such a manoeuvre and should slow down in anticipation of needing to stop suddenly - this isn't the same as riding ultra-defensively to the point of making no progress, but similar to how one might expect car drivers to behave too.

HOWEVER. Do I think you are to blame? No. The ideas above apply equally to the driver - just because a gap has suddenly formed he should still move carefully forward in anticipation of traffic in the next lane, which indeed there was. As somebody else said, you could have been a bus and they still would have hit you. The major difference is you weren't exactly going like a bat out of hell, when a bus/taxi could have easily got the 30+ down there... and caused a MUCH more serious situation from the driver's point of view. The situation is most certainly not 50/50, but if it happened to me and I were in your situation, I would find it difficult to argue that the driver was 100% to blame. 

I'm going to go hide for a bit now...


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## BentMikey (19 Dec 2010)

Again, in the highway code, when you are turning right across three lanes of traffic, who has to give way? You, or the oncoming traffic?


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## PBancroft (19 Dec 2010)

BentMikey said:


> Again, in the highway code, when you are turning right across three lanes of traffic, who has to give way? You, or the oncoming traffic?



Absolutely, which is why I say I don't think Gaz is to blame, but theoretically he should have been prepared for it. We all know that theory is very different in the real world of course.

I don't think I made the distinction clear in my OP, so I'll haphazardly try to clarify. I remember when learning to drive my instructor drilling into me the idea of priority over right of way. Just because you are driving down a road, it doesn't really mean you have right of way, it just means you have priority, and that can be taken away at any time. By changing traffic signals, a car pulling out or an unforeseen hazard etc.

Meh, maybe bad choice of words on my part, but I stand by my intent.


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## BentMikey (19 Dec 2010)

Gaz's priority hasn't been taken away. He still has priority over the turning car, who is 100% to blame for the collision.

I think what you're trying to say is that Gaz could have ridden and anticipated potential for the driver's mistake, i.e. done better defensive riding, but that in no way puts Gaz at fault. I'd like to think I could have anticipated that, and clearly many posters on here do too, but the reality check is that if Gaz missed it, the chances are very good quite a few of us would have missed it too, all else being the same.

I think Origamist is spot on where he posts that it's human nature to try to blame Gaz for this in order to justify our own riding choices and how we wouldn't have the same collision in the same circumstances, or something to that effect.


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## 400bhp (19 Dec 2010)

Mike I agree [For once] and you have hit the nail on the head.

It's at best naive to think Gaz was in any way at fault.

But the internet is full of morons - no different than real life.


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## marcw (19 Dec 2010)

Gaz could you let us know what the insurance outcome is please. My thinking is that this is two lanes of traffic and the car pulls out from a blind position with no ability to check for oncoming traffic. Riding in a bus lane isn't filtering. If the police/ insurance co see differently then I guess I'll rethink a large part of my daily commute and not use empty bus lanes.


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## gb155 (19 Dec 2010)

BentMikey said:


> Again, in the highway code, when you are turning right across three lanes of traffic, who has to give way? You, or the oncoming traffic?



This is pretty much a Carbon copy of what happened to me

the main difference was mine was in day light and there was no cars in front or to my right, the Van driver was charged at the scene by the police but his insurance company initially blamed me for the accident, they have since seen the light, good luck Gaz


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## Mista Preston (19 Dec 2010)

Just seen this and then read the thread.......


Glad you are ok Gaz. Rest up and enjoy your Christmas !


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## BentMikey (19 Dec 2010)

gb155 said:


> This is pretty much a Carbon copy of what happened to me
> 
> the main difference was mine was in day light and there was no cars in front or to my right, the Van driver was charged at the scene by the police but his insurance company initially blamed me for the accident, they have since seen the light, good luck Gaz



Well yes, insurance companies are very likely to try and misdirect blame in order to save themselves money. Glad to hear they've rolled over and surrendered in your case, gb155 (avoids using Gaz to not confuse the topic .

Anyway Vike has already confirmed that as a policeman, he would have put 100% of the blame on the driver in Gaz's video in this topic.

And I don't think Kaipath is a moron, not even slightly.


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## dellzeqq (19 Dec 2010)

gb155 said:


> This is pretty much a Carbon copy of what happened to me
> 
> the main difference was mine was in day light and there was no cars in front or to my right, the Van driver was charged at the scene by the police but his insurance company initially blamed me for the accident, they have since seen the light, good luck Gaz


that's what you need 3rd party insurance for. Insurance companies attempt to intimidate people claiming against their drivers if they think that the other party has no insurance.


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## stowie (19 Dec 2010)

dellzeqq said:


> that's what you need 3rd party insurance for. Insurance companies attempt to intimidate people claiming against their drivers if they think that the other party has no insurance.



Couldn't agree more. The reason I have 3rd party insurance is so that, in the event of an accident, the car's insurance company cannot try to walk all over me by using their resources. They get away with stuff because an individual will often not pursue a claim involving court costs etc. It is why "strict liability" would even up the playing field a bit.

BTW - I hope Gaz is recovering well. These side turnings are really tricky for cyclists and even worse for motorcyclists.


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## BentMikey (19 Dec 2010)

dellzeqq said:


> that's what you need 3rd party insurance for. Insurance companies attempt to intimidate people claiming against their drivers if they think that the other party has no insurance.




*Points to CTC membership* YES!!!

(Well, BC or LCC would also do the job, and are also worthy organisations).


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## cyberknight (19 Dec 2010)

BentMikey said:


> *Points to CTC membership* YES!!!
> 
> (Well, BC or LCC would also do the job, and are also worthy organisations).



Indeed !

I went with BC as with their promo code i got it for £12 for the year with the same legal cover and similar discount at wiggle and a discount for halfords etc.The CTC for me was a bit overpriced for the services i would use as i have yet to find the time to go out with the local group etc.
If the CTC offered different levels of cover i would have been more inclined to stay with them , not that they are not good just i found BC gave me what i needed cover wise at a price i could afford this close to x mas .

I am glad to see this thread has calmed down a bit as i was close to unsubscribing what with all the mudslinging that was going on, many people getting very rude to other members who all have valid opinions in a thread that should (in my opinion) have concerntrated more on the wellbeing of gaz rather than saying "********* !!! i am right "


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## NormanD (19 Dec 2010)

Gaz! Gaz! Gaz! what are we to do with you?, Not content with doing falling stunts in the streets, you've chosen to do them on the roads too, I'm afraid we've no choice but to send your bikes to me for looking after for say 20 years ( you can keep the broken one as a reminder) 

Glad to know you're ok mate


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## Peter10 (19 Dec 2010)

The first thing I was taught when I learned to drive was that you always give way to a car if you need to cross it's path e.g. Turning right. 

Hope you get well soon and I'm glad it wasn't worse especially this time of. Year.


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## Panter (19 Dec 2010)

Glad you're Ok Gaz, hope you're back on the bike soon


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## taxing (20 Dec 2010)

I missed this (lucky for me, seems like I missed all of the mudslinging). Hope you get well soon Gaz.


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## As Easy As Riding A Bike (20 Dec 2010)

The mudslinging came mostly from one person, who, having claimed that the responsibility for the collision was "50/50" between Gaz and the driver, became increasingly hostile when this view was challenged. All his posts seem to have been deleted. 


Anyway, hope Gaz is on the mend.


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## BentMikey (20 Dec 2010)

LOL @ Lee. See magnatom's .signature.


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## downfader (20 Dec 2010)

[QUOTE 1270191"]
No I don't agree. If what happened to Gaz was a one off never-to-be-repeated event then I'd agree but what happened didn't.

If you can't see a car with their LHS indicator, see the intention of a driver turning right out of a side those front of the car is already over the give way line and a gap develop then that is a problem. Sweet FA to do with hindsight and plastering over peoples faults as a cyclist. These type of things I see almost daily and deal with by slowing down. 'Tis blind and misgiving to assume, and I don't see what me taking risks has to do with defensive riding and you are confusing fact (about my riding) with your own opinion, but let's face it this is not the first time either so I would not expect anything else TBH.
[/quote]


Keep trying to hammer those nails home - you aint even got a hammer, mate. Lee, you're not perfect, you, as with I and any other rider, would have been hit by that driver. There is no mitigation of risk other than coming to a completely unnecessary standstill just on the offchance, or the driver actually doing THEIR part and not flying through as speed. 

Gaps develop all the time. Most drivers dont fly through them blindfold. Sometimes the responsibility comes from others.


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## BentMikey (20 Dec 2010)

Besides, Lee was hardly the most careful of riders when I rode with him.


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## downfader (20 Dec 2010)

[QUOTE 1270196"]
Has a look in one's toolbox and looks at a lovely ball hammer he bought from Wickes a while back.

The other highlighted bit is utter tosh. You don't have to reduce your speed to a 'standstill' as you put it at all - merely reduce your speed to the point where you could come to a standstill if need be. The other bits in bold are pure speculation and is both ignorant and offensive to me and other cyclists out there saying we all 'would have been hit by that driver.' I would suggest a retraction..
[/quote]


Lee. You're being facetious now. Stop being a mary and leave it. You aint superman just the same as the rest of us. Sometimes I wonder if you get off on this? It gets offensive.


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## gaz (21 Dec 2010)

Lee is entitled to his opinion, people may not agree with it, but isn't that just part of life?

It is easy to watch the video and see everything unfold. But lee, can't you accept that sometimes we will miss something? I'm certainly not perfect and clearly i missed the gap emerging in the traffic where the car appeared from. What has happened has happened. Now lets learn from it.
Do you really think that the left indicating WV was a danger?


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## Sh4rkyBloke (21 Dec 2010)

It may be my eyesight but it looked (to me) as if Gaz did actually slow down as he approached the car on the left (although it seemed to be more in response to the van indicating left from the lane to his right). Not a huge reduction in speed bu enough to be able to stop if the car on the left pulled out as he would have seen it earlier... the car from the right was out of the blue though, and had no intention of making any attempt to check for traffic down the bus lane. Cr*p driving!!


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## HaloJ (21 Dec 2010)

Been off the site for a few weeks sorting my life out and I get dragged back when Road.CC post a grisly crash on my RSS feed! Glad to know that you're OK Gaz. 

Abs


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## HaloJ (21 Dec 2010)

[QUOTE 1270204"]
What's been 'appening Abs?
[/quote]

Everything! 

Cat died, redundancy, painful dental work, other halfs redundancy, other cat is diagnosed diabetic and costing a fortune then to top it all one of our PS3s died. 

Still smiling though and I'm sure everything will work out. 

Abs

EDIT : Oh yeah I forgot I also cycled into the arse of the most expensive jag I could find.


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## gaz (21 Dec 2010)

[QUOTE 1270201"]
From your POV of course this is experience and I hope (forgive if I sound patronising) that you watch out in slow moving traffic. People are a lot more inclined to stop to let traffic in and out then they would do if the traffic is free flowing, and watch for those cars coming out of junctions.
[/quote]

One reason i got my camera, was to learn from it (being able to review incidences and see where i could improve) and having recently watched over old footage i can see how much of a better rider i have become in traffic environments. This incident is one that i can definitely learn from. And your point about drivers more likely to let other drivers cross there path in slow moving traffic is an excellent one. Definitely one to think about in future.

From a cyclists point of view about defensive cycling and riding safely, i see your point about 50/50. But i don't think that would apply to any insurance claims.


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## GrumpyGregry (21 Dec 2010)

gaz said:


> From a cyclists point of view about defensive cycling and riding safely, i see your point about 50/50.




Really? Fair enough. We will let you have, say, 5% for the valuable learning experience. So fault wise it was 5%/95% you/driver. Still a hell of a long way from 50/50


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## gaz (21 Dec 2010)

GregCollins said:


> Really? Fair enough. We will let you have, say, 5% for the valuable learning experience. So fault wise it was 5%/95% you/driver. Still a hell of a long way from 50/50



I said i see lee's point. Not that i agree with it.


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## Aperitif (21 Dec 2010)

I see why you wear a camera Gaz.


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## szygy (22 Dec 2010)

While it is wise and desirable to try and predict the stupidity and poor driving/cycling/walking of others, it does seem silly trying to reduce an analysis of this complex incident to a simple ratio of blame. I think the driver was fully at fault, but that some foresight may have helped avoid or reduce the impact speed. 
Gaz, regarding your frame, I would get it ultrasound tested to check its OK. To be honest I would not feel happy to sell that frame if it were mine, but might well be tempted to ride it. Would you sell it as OK, if not then get a new one on their insurance. 

Gaz I hope your OK healthwise and no further injury has developed.


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## Shut Up Legs (27 Dec 2010)

Gaz - only just saw this thread. I haven't read the entire 17 pages, but I hope the medical, legal, etc. issues work out fine for you . Hope you got it all on your helmet-camera .

I always hate to read about fellow cyclists (on this forum or the BV forum) coming a cropper on the roads, because I'm painfully aware that if I let my guard down I could be the next one . That tends to make it more personal.

All the best,

--- Victor.


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## Origamist (23 Jun 2011)

UPDATE: 



> The case went to court nearly 7 months after the incident and I heard about the results yesterday, the driver was charged with Careless or Inconsiderate driving, got a £350 fine, 6 points on their license and ordered to pay £100 court fees. That is certainly a good result.



http://croydoncyclist.wordpress.com/


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## BSRU (23 Jun 2011)

That's an excellent result.


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## Jezston (23 Jun 2011)

Saw this thread and thought for a moment oh no it's happened again!

Glad to hear it's good news rather than bad


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## HLaB (23 Jun 2011)

Jezston said:


> Saw this thread and thought for a moment oh no it's happened again!
> 
> Glad to hear it's good news rather than bad


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## suecsi (23 Jun 2011)

+1 - I joined Cyclechat after the original incident, and was worried for a while there when this popped back up! Gaz and his website have been such a great learning tool for someone coming back to cycling and having to commute in urban areas.


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## crazy580 (23 Jun 2011)

A brilliant result


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## cloggsy (23 Jun 2011)

Geez 

Get well soon Gaz!


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## Jezston (23 Jun 2011)

cloggsy said:


> Geez
> 
> Get well soon Gaz!



There was always going to be one


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## Night Train (23 Jun 2011)

That's good news that it was properly resolved. 

The only bummer, from a purely personal perspective, is that the fine and points were the same as given to the driver that killed my brother 20 years ago.


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## 2Loose (23 Jun 2011)

Good news indeed.


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## Adasta (23 Jun 2011)

Well done, Gaz. 

I think you should write a post/make a blog entry chronicalling the whole thing. Particular attention should be focused on how you made the claim because I think the legal process can vex a lot of injured cyclists.


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## gaz (23 Jun 2011)

Sorry I didn't update this personally. I did not have the time to do it this morning and I'm currently away from a computer.
I will keep my blog updated with details that follow. I have been though this process before and hopefully it is fairly straight forward.


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