# Toe dipping, best bent



## Jugular (19 May 2010)

Hi,

I'm just starting to be come aware of recumbent bikes, and trikes and want to find out more. Can you 'bentonauts tell me where I can find more information.

To perhaps generate a bit more interest, what's your ideal recumbent?


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## Riding in Circles (19 May 2010)

I'm biased as I am the Catrike importer/distributor but I chose Catrike as an enthusiast, I love trikes and could never imagine having a two wheeler only, Catrike Expedition is my steed of choice just because I find it so versatile, in the past I have had Hase, Windcheetah, Trice and they were all good and all had and have advantages common to the particular brands, I am not the kind of person to slag off other brands unless they are actually naff. Personally I don't see suspension as something I want, I have had two wheelers with suspension and have prefered them without, I have ridden trikes with and without and prefer without, other people will tell you suspension is vital, a lot of it is down to personal choice. I think we are recumbenteers by the way although I may be wrong.


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## Arch (19 May 2010)

Another Catrike owner here, mine's a Dash. Before that I had a venerable old original Trice (from the pre-ICE days.) Both lovely, in different ways - the Trice was a stately old thing, although still fun, the Dash is much lighter and nippier.

I think it comes down to deciding what you want, just like with an upright: speed, luggage capacity, position (very low, not very low, very laid back, quite upright) etc. and then looking at the ranges of the various manufacturers, and eventually getting to try a few. 

At the risk of a little self (work) promotion, here's a list of some of the major names.

http://www.velovision.com/links.html#Recumbents

To try a range, go to somewhere like D-tek in Ely, or London Recumbents or, oh heck, here we go again:

http://www.velovision.com/links.html#SpecialistdealersUK

I think if I had the money, and space, I'd like a 'bent bike too, but I don't know if I'd ever go completely over to the dark side - sometimes just jumping on a nice ordinary, unremarkable upright is what you need to get to the shops....

There is nothing quite like the feel of a 'bent trike though. Preferably downhill on smooth tarmac on a road where you can see well enough ahead to just let the brakes go....

It's like this:


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## arallsopp (19 May 2010)

SMGTe and Challenge Furai owner here. The SMGTe is a fantastic fail safe, ultra rugged beast of burden. Takes all the crud I can throw at it and more. 8k miles. No servicing. The Furai is a flighty little tart. Loves the miles. Throws a tantrum once in a while. 8kgs lighter than the SMGTe and all the faster for it. Love them both.


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## Arch (19 May 2010)

arallsopp said:


> The Furai is a flighty little tart. Loves the miles. Throws a tantrum once in a while.



Mostly fixable with zipties....


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## 3tyretrackterry (20 May 2010)

Trice explorer here excellent workmanship had it just over a year and had no problems bought secondhand from D Tek reccomend going there if you want to try one


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## squeaker (20 May 2010)

*ideal?*



Jugular said:


> what's your ideal recumbent?


A rather open question methinks  Horses for courses, and all that.

At the mo:

Grasshopper for comfortable mile eating / load carrying with reasonable speed
ICE 'S' for (slower, but more relaxed) miles when tired - not having to balance on hills or worry about gravel / dodgy road edges when stopping is a real bonus
Raptobike - something (relatively affordable) for the weekend


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## Jugular (20 May 2010)

I guess I can only blame myself for asking the wrong questions if I don't quite get the answers I'm after. I looked up a number of pros and cons of recumbents. Most of them flipped between trike and bike pros and cons versus uprights. What are the differences between recumbent bikes and trikes in terms of pros and cons? 

Am I right in thinking that everyone above owns their ideal bikes/trikes... I find that hard to believe, which are your ideals!?


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## Arch (20 May 2010)

Jugular said:


> Am I right in thinking that everyone above owns their ideal bikes/trikes... I find that hard to believe, which are your ideals!?



Well, unless I could try every trike there is, I don't know. I do know that it suits me (albeit with a little customising).

Pros and cons re: bike/trike.

Well, it all comes down to that extra wheel, really. Trikes are more stable, esp at slow speed - indeed, speeds down to 0mph, at which point you have a comfy chair to have your picnic in. If, like me, you are overly cautious on two wheels, you can let yourself go faster on three.

They are, of course, heavier and bulkier to store or transport.


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## Riding in Circles (20 May 2010)

Jugular said:


> Am I right in thinking that everyone above owns their ideal bikes/trikes... I find that hard to believe, which are your ideals!?



Lee and Arch both have their ideal trikes and me of course, everyone else is just riding an interim trike/bike until they get their Catrike or Catbike, obvious innit?


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## squeaker (21 May 2010)

*Trike vs Bike*

IME 

Trike:


slower than similar (role) bike by ~10% (e.g. ICE 'S' vs Grasshopper) unless fully faired (see Quest)
sit lower than a bike so:
more road spray / splash from passing vehicles
more dazzle from oncoming traffic at night (a problem for me in rain - have to wear specs - but at least on a trike you're not going to wobble and fall off...)

more awkward to park (don't forget to put the brake on, either)
easy to carry big loads (with rack + side bags + trailer etc.)
can go up hills very slowly when laden (providing gearing is right)
3 wheel tracks so potholes more problematic, ditto central grass on white roads
no problems with loose surfaces e.g. freshly chipped roads
no need to remove front wheels to repair a tube, just tip onto it's side
more awkward (if allowed) on trains
ground clearance on low trikes can compromise route
loose pebbles can get pinged into the main frame and chip the paint 
if you prefer drifting, instead of carving, turns then a trike's for you
Bike:


you have to balance 
steep hills can get 'interesting' e.g. wheel spin on FWD Raptobike on wet, bumpy hills
starts / stops can get interesting on loose surfaces

single track, so easy to find smooth bit of rough roads
SWB like Grasshopper is about the same length as a DF bike so fits on trains OK (when allowed)
Others will no doubt disagree


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## Jugular (21 May 2010)

Thanks for the response squeaker, but I didn't understand:


squeaker said:


> ...FWD Raptobike ...
> ...SWB like Grasshopper ...
> ...DF bike ...


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## Riding in Circles (21 May 2010)

Jugular said:


> Thanks for the response squeaker, but I didn't understand:



FRONT WHEEL DRIVE

SHORT WHEEL BASE

UPWRONG!


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## NickM (21 May 2010)

I have a Kingcycle - an excellent "day bike", fairly light, a good climber, and with a really useful weatherproof tailbox. BUT... no longer made. You would have to find a secondhand one, and they are increasingly rare. Plus you would need to get the fork modded to accept a 20" wheel instead of the obscure French size it was originally made for, and for which you can't get decent tyres nowadays.

I also have a Challenge Fujin SLII, which is a lovely machine (very light for a recumbent, at ~19lbs), fast, comfortable and not so low as to be impractical on UK roads. But it gets exercised rarely, because it makes me too fast for the company I keep when riding.

And I have a Raptobike lowracer, but that is set up purely for racing on flat circuits, with no low gears. It's pretty good for its targeted use, but in my opinion (others differ) lowracers are not for recumbent beginners - not on UK roads, anyway. My SO has a Catrike Pocket trike, which she adores - but she isn't as fast on it as on an upright bike.

What I would recommend you look at for a first recumbent, assuming that you want an all-rounder, is something with a good balance of the virtues of Kingcycle and Fujin, the Challenge Mistral SL. You will notice that this is _not cheap!!_ Light recumbents aren't! A cheaper alternative is the Bacchetta Giro 20, which is closely analagous to the Kingcycle - as are quite a few other short wheelbase recumbents, showing that Miles Kingsbury, the Kingcycle designer, got it pretty well right back in 1985 

If the budget is tight, or you don't want to splash out on what may prove to be just an experiment, a secondhand recumbent would be a good taster. You might like to keep an eye out on eBay and the For Sale pages of the Velovision and British Human Power Club forums for a Speed Ross/Orbit Crystal (they are virtually the same thing). One in good condition should cost you less than £500.

PS another thoroughbred all-rounder for the fairly well-heeled is the Burrows Ratcatcher. It's just as well that I have my Kingcycle, or I'd be tempted!


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## NickM (21 May 2010)

Some more recumbent-related words:

USS - under seat steering - found on touring-orientated bikes, generally speaking, along with suspension
ASS - above-seat steering, which can be TILLER, "Tweener" (as on the Kingcycle and Bacchetta Giro) or "Open Cockpit"

Sporty recumbents tend to have a chain which runs from chainset to cassette with a minimum of associated hardware in between. More sedate machines may use lengthy sections of chain tube to route the return run of the chain (and even the power side, sometimes - ugh!). I don't like chain tubes. They are like power-robbing vampires.


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## Riding in Circles (21 May 2010)

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mxld4jJD0SI


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## LeeW (21 May 2010)

Catrike UK said:


> Lee and Arch both have their ideal trikes and me of course, everyone else is just riding an interim trike/bike until they get their Catrike or Catbike, obvious innit?



The Quest is a very nice trike, although I would not say it is my ultimate ideal trike. It does have some drawbacks, the main one being it is way too big for me, being made for a 6' 8" dutch man. Quest are going to bring out a smaller version at some point which I hope will be ideal.
As for suspention I find I need it. That could be because the roads on my commute consists of mostly chip seal, potholes, ruts, badly filled potholes and trenches etc.


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## PalmerSperry (21 May 2010)

LeeW said:


> The Quest is a very nice trike, although I would not say it is my ultimate ideal trike. It does have some drawbacks, the main one being it is way too big for me, being made for a 6' 8" dutch man. Quest are going to bring out a smaller version at some point which I hope will be ideal.



I've vaguely come to the conclusion that my ultimate ideal trike would be a Sinner Mango Sport, possibly fitted with a Bionx motor. Alas I've yet to work out (a) how I'd afford this and ( how I'd get it from Austria to the start of the LEL in 2013 (& back) if I figured out part [a].

Therefore I suspect it's more likely I'll end up with either a Trice (that fold looks useful for things like part * above) or a Catrike Speed (and invest in some cardboard and bubblewrap for part ).*


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## squeaker (22 May 2010)

LeeW said:


> As for suspention I find I need it. That could be because the roads on my commute consists of mostly chip seal, potholes, ruts, badly filled potholes and trenches etc.


Or the speed that Quests seem to travel at 
IME keeping your wheels in contact with the road is generally a good idea....


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## Riding in Circles (22 May 2010)

LeeW said:


> The Quest is a very nice trike, although I would not say it is my ultimate ideal trike. It does have some drawbacks, the main one being it is way too big for me, being made for a 6' 8" dutch man. Quest are going to bring out a smaller version at some point which I hope will be ideal.
> As for suspention I find I need it. That could be because the roads on my commute consists of mostly chip seal, potholes, ruts, badly filled potholes and trenches etc.



Vanity Lee, I was talking about the Lee who had already been on this thread.

As for the rest of your post, suspension on a velomobile is important as you are a larger vehicle, you cannot see the potholes so easily with all the bodywork and the whole vehicle is generally a heavier than a standard trike.

The WAW would have been better for you, it was for people under 6'2".

There is a british velomobile under development so I hear.


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## arallsopp (22 May 2010)

Jugular said:


> Can you 'bentonauts tell me where I can find more information.



Here's my regular reading list:
BROL: http://www.bentrideronline.com/
BROL: forums http://www.bentrideronline.com/messageboard/index.php
The 'other place': http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?board=10.0
blog: http://www.recumbentblog.com/
journal: http://www.recumbentjournal.com/

I also follow a few blogs of homebuilders, but the above should give you enough to go on


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## Arch (22 May 2010)

PalmerSperry said:


> I've vaguely come to the conclusion that my ultimate ideal trike would be a Sinner Mango Sport, possibly fitted with a Bionx motor. Alas I've yet to work out (a) how I'd afford this and ( how I'd get it from Austria to the start of the LEL in 2013 (& back) if I figured out part [a].



a) rob a bank?

 ride it there...(and back)


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## PalmerSperry (22 May 2010)

Arch said:


> a) rob a bank?



Alas, there's only one bank in the village and all the members of staff know (a) my name, ( my address and (c) my account number. I feel this might cause some problems with the "getting away with it" side of the equation?



Arch said:


> B) ride it there...(and back)



Well if I successfully pulled off part (a) then I suppose I wouldn't have to worry about getting enough time off work for part (B)?


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## Arch (22 May 2010)

PalmerSperry said:


> Alas, there's only one bank in the village and all the members of staff know (a) my name, ( my address and (c) my account number. I feel this might cause some problems with the "getting away with it" side of the equation?



I suppose.....

Lazy so and so, rob a bank in the _next_ village!

BTW, did you see the little clip of the Mango Sport in my SPEZI video on Velo Vision? I had a sit in it, but it was set up about right for Pete, so about 8 feet too long for me. I did manage to get it up and down the road by pushing at one pedal... I imagine it would be a lot of fun!


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## CopperBrompton (23 May 2010)

Jugular said:


> Am I right in thinking that everyone above owns their ideal bikes/trikes


I certainly do. I test-rode seven or eight of them, and as I figured that whatever I bought I'd keep for life, there wasn't any sense in compromising. Although I spent significantly more originally planned, the additional cost per mile is trivial.


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## CopperBrompton (23 May 2010)

squeaker said:


> more awkward to park


I disagree with that one. Because you don't need to lean them up against anything, they're actually easier to park. If I want to park it against railings, I do have to remove the rear mudguard (as I stand it on the rear wheel with a U-lock through the cross part off the cruciform), but for casual cafe stops, where it's within sight, I just need something to attach to the rear wheel.

For me the really big benefit of a trike is it's like a grown-up go-kart: fun, fun, fun. :-)


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## ufkacbln (23 May 2010)

PalmerSperry said:


> Alas, there's only one bank in the village and all the members of staff know (a) my name, ( my address and (c) my account number. I feel this might cause some problems with the "getting away with it" side of the equation?
> 
> 
> 
> Well if I successfully pulled off part (a) then I suppose I wouldn't have to worry about getting enough time off work for part (?



Totally OT...

This happened...

When I was at school in the 70's we had a "bad girl" in our yearwho fell in with a dodgy crowd. They decided to rob the bank on Market Day when all th takings were in.

So the girl goes in and cashes a cheque to suss the place out, comes back 5 minutes later with a stocking mask, boyfriend and his brother with shotguns. Rob bank and make getaway.

When the Police arrive, the cashier identifies the robberess as she was at school with her younger sister and a regular customer. Gives address. Police go round and there they are counting the money in the sitting room.

We all found it hilarious!


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## Fiona N (26 May 2010)

PalmerSperry said:


> ... Sinner Mango Sport, possibly fitted with a *Bionx motor*. ..to the start of the LEL in 2013 (& back)



But surely, if you had a motor, you wouldn't be allowed to ride LEL (officially, at any rate)


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## Riding in Circles (26 May 2010)

Fiona N said:


> But surely, if you had a motor, you wouldn't be allowed to ride LEL (officially, at any rate)



So battery would last so little time relative to the events distance that it would just end up being ballast.


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## PalmerSperry (26 May 2010)

Catrike UK said:


> So battery would last so little time relative to the events distance that it would just end up being ballast.



True, but I wasn't think of having a motor for LEL ... More for getting around some of the local hills, particularly if I was doing any kind of touring which involved the Großglockner Hochalpenstraße for instance! (~12.5km of an average ~10.5% gradient!).

I recall, but can't currently find, an online article about someone who was experimenting with low powered electrical assistance. Instead of 200-250W he was using just enough to help compensate for the extra weight of the machine.


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## GuyY (26 May 2010)

I have a Seiran 24 with 47-507 tires, underseat stearing, and the seat angled up as much as possible. This gives me a relatively safe/steady ride and it feels a good straight line machine, tight curves however.... A recumbent with 20" narrow tires, above seat stearing, and a raked back seat seems to do the opposite (having experienced minor adrenaline rushes with a bike in that combination at London Recumbents). My previous recumbent (that some skallywag nicked from work) had a 26"/20" combination and felt more manoverable at lower speeds than my Seiran, probably due to the 20" front. It was lighter as well and the difference in weight (with some contribution from the tire size differences) seems quite noticeable in terms of acquiring momentum on the road. So go for light and then either safe or twitchy! Well that's my ha'penny's worth.


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## swscotland bentrider (16 Jun 2010)

I've tried a few 'bent bikes and owned four. All had above seat steering. Two had 'tiller' steering which I eventually rejected in favour of a more conventional set up. My current bike is a Giro 20. Of them all this is the most stable and everyday usable bike. My test is to achieve a state where I use a bike 'unthinkingly' like I do with my Thorn Sherpa. The Giro is not particularly fast but it is comfortable with a springy steel frame that acts like suspension. My trike (an ICE Q26) on the other hand is probably my all round favourite.


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## NickM (16 Jun 2010)

swscotland bentrider said:


> My test is to achieve a state where I use a bike 'unthinkingly' like I do with my Thorn Sherpa...


That's a good test. My Kingcycle certainly passes it for pleasure cycling, but for commuting I'm still riding an upright. I find that I read traffic better from saddle height, and my neck and shoulders can tolerate about 45 minutes of upright cycling at one go!


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