# First 4 hours with my new Garmin GPSmap 60Csx GPS unit and City europe mapping



## Bigtallfatbloke (4 Jul 2008)

*First 4 DAYZ with my new Garmin GPSmap 60Csx GPS unit and City europe mapping*

(I also posted this in the reviews as well but it is locked so I am posting it here as well for a more..erm...interactive experience)



..I don't know if it's of any interest but here are a nobs initial experiences/thoughts about this unit and the Garmin city navigator europe sd maps. I will try to avoid the negativity I feel right now and be honest:

1) The buying experience was horrendous. No easy to understand info from manufacturer or dealer. I give Garin 3/10 and the dealer 0/10 for customer help during the sales process. Hopeless. Thank gawd for Cycle chat forummers.

2) The courier who deleivered was a ****ing tosser...excuse my french but he was.

3) ok...the unit itself. Smaller than I thought, look cool. manual is the usual mix of promises and incompetent discriptions /directions. I found it easier to staret pushing buttons.

4) No batteries included...hmmm...easy enough to load some up though...but..
5) the memory card is located under the battery cover...boy talk about fiddly and fragile...not ideal.
6)The handlebar mounts work ok...I had to get the oversized version for my Galaxy bars. I will however still tie the GPS onto the bike as I dont trust it not to jump out of the clamp and fall under a tractor or something.
7)The compass isnt as good as my £2 job from Decathlon...I dont trust it yet. It has to be totally flat to operate, which is a pita because the unit cannot be fitted horizontal to the bars because of the bar bag, not to mention ease of viewing the screen in the light. It also gets affected by the steel frame and does not indicate where I know true north
to be unless held away from th ebike frame and horizontal...therefore useless to ride along a compass bearing.
8) The base maps are fine if you are a 747 pilot, but for a cyclist they are pathetically useless.
9) I have yet to manage to be able to navigate even around the corner on this thing yet. The map thing isn't anywhere near as easy to read as even a basic motorists tom tom screen.I am hoping I can get used to it .
10)Using the find facility did not throw up any of the two campsites withing 5 miles of my house, just hotels under accomodation, again not much use (this with City europe installed)
11) the City europe card box contains a big warning saying not to save routes to this disc because it will over write and cannot be undone. Great. How hard would it have been for them to disable over writing on this disc 9or at least offer an option)...I am bound to forget which disc is installed as they both look exactly the same.
12)There are a lot of superfluos options on this unit for me...like anchor dragging for boats, star wars games etc
13) It has some reasonable colour display options if you like lilac or sapphire I guess.
14)the new batteries I installed are already 2/3rds depleted and I dont have the back light on.
15) the trip page has some useful fields/options..I hav eyet to learn how to set them corecctly...so right now I am tempted to get a cheap normal wired bike computer i CAN TRUST.
16) It came with abelt clip and a usb cable if anybody is interested.

...I have to say that after so much hassle to buy this thing, I was looking forward to its arrival. The shitty attitude of the courier just compounded an already dreadful buying experience. The unit has a BIG learning curve and I am definatly going to have to take all the paper maps as well 'cos I do not trust this unit yet (or my ability to drive it).
So right now I am disappointed and wishing I still had my £300 in my pocket.

However, I have yet to install the mapsource Cd...hopefully that will help. Also I am aware that this is just the initial few hours and hope that the experience will improove with practice.

My thoughts at the moment are that for a cyclist this unit is akin to using a sledge hammer to bang in a drawing pin...way to complicated and full of unecessary stuff.

I wish Tom Tom just did a the same unit as my wifes car sat nav with longer battery life, that would be vastly superior for my needs I feel.

...anyway next stage is to install the CD and try and plan a route on th epc, 'cos looking this I would categorically say that it is impossible to plan a route on the unit alone in what is left of my lifetime.

Frankly if this doesnt become a LOT easier tomorrow I will ask for my cash back...which I wont get 'cos the Garmin dealer is an arse, so it'll go on ebay and I'll take a serious hit and put it down to another shitty hi tech life experience.


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## Bigtallfatbloke (4 Jul 2008)

What i dont understand is how to get the pre planned routes from bike route toaster into the GPS unit. I have mapped out a route in bikeroute toaster, saved it to a GPX file on my c drive, installed trip and waypoint manager on my pc, installed city navigater sd card maps in the GPS. I have managed to open the gpx file in waypoint manager and that is a s far as I have got.

The waypoint mamage rmap is nowhere near as detailed as the bike route toaster map (very disappointing). 

I am afraid to take the next step of connecting the USB cable supplied and uploading the route from waypoint Manager to the gps because of the warning notice displayed on the inside of the City europe SD card box which clearly states:

"Caution: pre- programmed micro SD cards should not be used for saving mapsource maps. The pre programmed data will be lost. |Please ensure you have a blank data card inserted into your Garmin GPS before transferring mapsource data."

...I thought the entire point was to allow me to take the map from bike route toaster, into waypoint manager and then have it overlay the route points onto the city navigator maps so i can follow my pre programmed line/route as I ride. Clearly i have misunderstood again...hmmm...Garmin support FAQ's didt seem to cover this point and they dont answer the phones...any body in Cyclechat land have any words of wisdon (except 'i told you so')?


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## piedwagtail91 (4 Jul 2008)

all you're sending from waypoint manager is a "line" which shows the roads you've plotted on brt. it's not a map.
i'd continue to plot on brt, save as gpx, load into waypoint manager and then send to gps.mapsource are maps , just like your city navigator , but have to be loaded manually and they are also loaded into the pc to give a more detailed map than waypoint manager.
it can take some getting used to but once you've got the hang of it , it's great.
you can use the waypoint manager to save your routes on. also when you get to a favourite place such as a cafe, bike shop etc insert a waypoint into the gps, when you get home download and save it to build up a file of all cafes, bike shops, summits etc.

i use tracklogs mapping to plot on as all the web based route plotting sites only became available after i'd shelled out a small fortune!

i use a zoom level of 500 ft or less on the gps, that gives enough detail.


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## jags (4 Jul 2008)

say btfb why dont you grab some teenager throw him or her a tenner for a hour on how to work that bloody thing you will fiddle around with it all night you need someone to show you how it works


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## yello (4 Jul 2008)

Bigtallfatbloke said:


> "Caution: pre- programmed micro SD cards should not be used for saving mapsource maps. The pre programmed data will be lost. |Please ensure you have a blank data card inserted into your Garmin GPS before transferring mapsource data."



*I think* that what it is saying is don't use an SD card that has any software or non-mapsource data (i.e. routes) it - but a blank SD card is fine OR (and this is my reading of it) an SD card that already has mapsource data on it. I reckon you can store as many mapsource routes as the card will hold. 

I'm guessing that the format of a mapsource data card is specific to mapsource/Garmin and the first map you put to it will also 'format' the card accordingly (and hence loose anything that might already be on it). Thereafter, additional mapsource data can be added.

If you have a blank SD card then just give it a go. There's nothing to loose.


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## Bigtallfatbloke (4 Jul 2008)

Ok...let me get this straight.. I have Garmin city navigator europe SD card maps installed in the gPS unit. Can I now try to take a GPx file into the GPS unit from the trip and waypoint manager without any risk that it will delete/overwrite my city europe maps? That is what notht he Garmin dealer and Garmin told me I can do, but this label definatly reads differently to me.

I have two teenagers in the house...no wait three if you include the Polish lad...none of whom can do anything except balls up whayt I have already set.


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## yello (4 Jul 2008)

I personally would not risk storing the gpx on that particular SD card. I reckon you'd loose all of the map data. 

Take the card out of the GPS first and then send the gpx. The GPS should have sufficient internal memory to store a number of routes. I suspect that's what the dealer meant. Perhaps you'll be given the option of loading the gpx to internal memory or to SD card, I don't know, but if you don't have the map data card in then there is no risk. 

If you're planning to plot your entire Europe trip before setting out then I reckon that's where you'll need another (blank) SD card. Because the GPS unit won't have sufficient internal memory/storage for that many routes. On the road, it'd be a matter of loading the required route(s) for the day/week off of your 'gpx routes' SD card and into internal storage before then putting the map SD card back in. Does that make sense?


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## MockCyclist (4 Jul 2008)

BTFB, this is my take on the sd card problem.

Your gps will always record a tracklog when its turned on, whether you like it or not. The tracklog is saved in internal memory and when it runs out of tracklog memory it re-uses the oldest logs. 

In additon, you can elect to save the tracklogs to the sd card, so that you always have a record of where you've actually been.

Now, it seems to me that if you have the sd card mapping, and you are told not to write to the card, you must make sure that "Log Track to Data Card" is off. See page 27 of the instructions.

Now, your route. You've got it loaded in MapSource and you can see it? Connect up the gps with usb, then select Transfer > Send to Device. Routes do not get saved to the sd card, they're stored in the internal memory, so I'm as certain as I can be that uploading a route won't spoil you map card. (What would be the point of the unit otherwise?)


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## MockCyclist (4 Jul 2008)

Just for the avoidance of doubt - you don't upload a route by copying it to the sd card. You do it in MapSource (or some of the other software that can also do it) and the route is sent to internal memory and appears in the "routes" icon. It isn't written to the sd card by MapSource.


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## MockCyclist (4 Jul 2008)

More on the sd card thing: When you do the transfer from MapSource, you get a dialogue where you tick send Maps, Routes, Waypoints or Tracks. In your case, NEVER tick send maps. (It isn't ticked by default).

You only use Send Maps when you've got dvd maps and not sd card maps.


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## MockCyclist (4 Jul 2008)

Sorry to bulk out this thread, just trying to get some concepts across so you can better understand what's going on:

You sd card wil contain a file named gmapsupp. That is your mapping file.

When you use MapSource to send a map to the gps, it sends a NEW gmapsupp and it OVERWRITES the one on the card. For users with dvd mapping installed in MapSource this isn't a problem because you can re-send your map any time. But once you use the send map feature to sd card mapping, which you don't have in any other format, you effectively overwrite your purchased map.


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## MockCyclist (4 Jul 2008)

Bigtallfatbloke said:


> The waypoint mamage rmap is nowhere near as detailed as the bike route toaster map (very disappointing).



Quite so, the Trip & Waypoint Manager mapping is very basic, I covered this in an earlier reply. You can't get you sd card mapping into MapSource.

When you upload your route to your gps, it will be overlaid onto the City Navigator and you should see plenty of detail.



Bigtallfatbloke said:


> 5) the memory card is located under the battery cover...boy talk about fiddly and fragile...not ideal.



I've only ever installed my sd card once and I've never touched it since.



Bigtallfatbloke said:


> 7)The compass isnt as good as my £2 job from Decathlon...I dont trust it yet. It has to be totally flat to operate, which is a pita because the unit cannot be fitted horizontal to the bars because of the bar bag, not to mention ease of viewing the screen in the light. It also gets affected by the steel frame and does not indicate where I know true north
> to be unless held away from th ebike frame and horizontal...therefore useless to ride along a compass bearing.



Yes but once moving the compass works by satellite



Bigtallfatbloke said:


> 15) the trip page has some useful fields/options..I hav eyet to learn how to set them corecctly...so right now I am tempted to get a cheap normal wired bike computer i CAN TRUST.



I too have a normal wired odo. Don't forget the gps records all movement, including when you take it into a shop for security. You might use it for walks. I put my gps in my pocket if I wander off with my camera, so that I can correctly geo-locate my photos later. So the Total Distance Travelled doesn't reflect pedalling time.


I'll re-visit this thread next week.


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## Bigtallfatbloke (4 Jul 2008)

Thanks again chaps for 'being there',much appreciated indeed.

Ok this is what I did .
Jus tto be on the totally safe side I took out the Euro map sd card and re loaded the blank one supplied with the GPS unit. I then plugged in the USB cable from the GPS to my pc and ran the wizard it threw up. I then selected send to device and my GPS was recognised. There were four tick box options but only the Track box was able to be ticked, the other three were not possible to tick. I hit th etit and it took just a second to upload.

I turned the gPS back on and went to the main menu>tracks >map and up came a high level map of the Bodensee...Friedrichshafen to Basel which was cool. So i guess that is how to get a route into the gizmo.

Now then...what next...hmm...I need a more accurate maps so I guess I am going to have to do this with the Euro map card inserted instead of the blank one....ok...P 27 you say...


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## MockCyclist (4 Jul 2008)

OK, finally tonight ... I think that my remark about not saving Tracklog to Card doesn't actually apply. It's the saving of a map, that overwrites your purchased map, that's a no-no. I'd say you COULD save tracklogs to the card as they're .gpx files and they can reside there along with gmapsupp.

Possibly that's something you could research and double check. For the moment you can leave the feature off.

Not sure why you've ended up with a Track, and not a Route, but that's for another day.


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## Bigtallfatbloke (5 Jul 2008)

..I am not sure I know the difference?..tracks are the breadcrumb trail right?...a route is the way I have yet to tread?
...maybe I did something wrong in BR toaster??

..anyway, I put the city nav europe card back in and now I can pull up a much more detailed 'track' of the route from Friedrichs hafen to Basel...it just kept the track line and put the more detailed map underneath it...good stuff.

So now I need to figure out why a track and not a route...and try to import the route from waypoint manager while the city europe card is in the GPS...I dont fancy having to keep swapping cards on tour in a dark tent or on a windy roadside.

Any ideas on where i can get some detailed infor on campsites to put in as POI's? I hav einstalled POI from the Garmin site but am unsure what to do do next...do i ned to seek out my own POIs and then store them somewhere and upload them...or is there a cache of POI's ready made so to speak I can just access and put into the GPS??


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## yello (5 Jul 2008)

Thanks for helping out here MockCyclist. I was working blind, not knowing the particular GPS that btfb was using. Sounds like he's got it sussed now, or is certainly well on the way to it!


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## Bigtallfatbloke (5 Jul 2008)

I think I just managed to use the GPS unit to programme a route between two waypoints on my usual loop...only it is taking me a different (more hilly) way than I usually go....I guess this is where closer waypoints are needed?..unless I kust accept the route.
This thing is eating batteries...gone through 4 already! I have a solar charger with me to re charge the batteries, but although I left it on charge all last night they were dead this morning...must have done something wrong I suppose. ...this is good, I'd rather cock up now and fix it, than cock up on tour and face a long days ride with no clue where I am going.


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## yello (5 Jul 2008)

As an aside, I got my FreeLoader solar charger out a few days back to test it. Now, it's been nearly a year since I last used it but it took 3 DAYS to fully charge it! Certainly not the 6 to 7 hours I seem to remember that was quoted. (In fairness, that has fully charged my Edge 305 but I can drain that in a day.) Maybe it'll do better with future recharges.


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## Bigtallfatbloke (5 Jul 2008)

Mine charges quicker..well it did yesterday in the sun and I have the larger panel extension as well. My problem was getting the power from the free loader into the re chargeable batteries via the battery pack. I think I may just have had some duff batteries.

Right now i am trying (and failing miserably)to find POI files compatible with Garmin GPS map60csx containing German and Fench campsite locations, so i can upload them using POI Loader which I downloaded. I did manage to get som poi message saying congratulations you hav ejus tuploaded 1238 poi into waypoint manager but then i can find a single one of those in waypoint manager...hmmmI wonder if I'll ever have time to ride a bike again..

...so I just found something called 'Highway'....which looks more like th eTom Tom display as you travel...a big moving arrow to follow ....erm but without the streets...hmm...


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## Bigtallfatbloke (5 Jul 2008)

I mamaged to plot my local loop into this thing via mapsource. Only it is still listed under tracks and not routes. My son figured out that if he went back over each waypoint int mapsource with the route tool and then took it into the GPS it would save as a route...but that is hellish time consuming. I then went back to bikeroutetoaster and re did the route using the red course points instead of the blue track points...and each time it allowed me to fill in a comment on the point...I then took it into mapsource expecting it to allow me to take routes into the GPS...but it did not and I still am only allowed to take tracks into the GPS.
Garmin help is only Mon Fri 9-5...anybody know the answer a bit quicker??
Ta.


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## CopperBrompton (5 Jul 2008)

These things are always difficult to diagnose remotely. Your best bet is to bring it along to a meet where there are other Garmin users. It's really very simple once you know what you're doing.

But I do recommend that people buy the City Navigator mapping on DVD rather than card.

Ben


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## Bigtallfatbloke (5 Jul 2008)

yep...I think that would have been easier...although Garmin and the dealer told me it wasnt any easier and was just a waste of my money!
...two days in and I am wishing I had never heard of a GPS unit.


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## yello (5 Jul 2008)

Bigtallfatbloke said:


> two days in and I am wishing I had never heard of a GPS unit.



Yes, I know what you mean! I've been there! But hang in there, it's just a learning curve. Once you know what you're doing and have done it a few times, it'll all seem straight forward.


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## Bigtallfatbloke (5 Jul 2008)

ok I just did my first ever GPS 'ride'...just 10 km though to test the unit on the move.
I had loaded a route I programmed in bike route toaster and put into the Garmin. The Garmin still only recognises it as a track not a route.
I treied to follow the map minimised to 50m. I got about 100m when it missed a turn ( well I am sure I did programme the turn but I suppose pilot ewrror is more likely than unit error at the moment).
I had it re calculate and off I went still trying to follow th emap. I was kind of ok but not ideal.
I then hit the 'Highway' icon and the route line was in front of me like i was looking at the road (i.e not a crows eye view but a cyclists view). This was much better. The map does not display the surrounding streets on this option, just the road you are supposed to be following. It does throw up the name of the street you are on and the street you are looking for next as you ride...all of which is good.
BUT...when you make a turn the unit defaults back to the crows eye map view whilst you make the turn and then does not orientate itself back again...so for a while I was cycling along in the opposite direction to the on screen arrow even though I knew I was riding in the correct direction...very odd.

Another thing...although it had newly charged batteries before I left, they are already showing30-40% useage and a simple 10km ride!...really not good....that cannot be right, I must be doing something wrong. I have th eback screen light off and am using the correct type of re chargeable batteries.

The thing I really need to get around now is how to import the gpx files as ROUTES not tracks. 

Then I need to get this thing to re orientate itself quicker on the turns somehow.

Then I still need to get some decent POI campsite files installed for Germany and France. Any ideas where I can get this info anybody?

Thern I need to spend a long time programming in my routes a smuch as I can.
The idea being that I will navigate through Germany on Paper maps and a wing and a prayer whilst learning how to drive this unit fully. I may ned it to dig me out of a few holes in the towns but mostly it wont be needed. If I do decide to carry on down into France then I would like to have installed the routes before I leave next weekend so i can follow them easily, as by then I will be riding alone.

The screen view was pretty clear out there today even with shades on and no back light. I am slightly concerned about the vibrations through the handlebarmount sthow...that cannot be good for it over the kind of distances this thing i s about to travel.

So all in all the learning curve is HIGH and it is frustrating, but I will get there i am sure and it will all have been worth it.


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## RedBike (5 Jul 2008)

tracks are a bread-crumb trails of every twist and turn of the trail. 
When using tacks I always use the screen below (instead of the map). The arrow points out every twist and turn. It's obvious when you've gone wrong because the arrows pointing in the wrong direction. 






With routes you have a waypoint at every major turn in the route and these waypoints are then linked by straight lines, (regardless of how much the path twists and turns between points). 

To turn a track into a route with Garmin map source is relatively easy if a little time consuming. You just right click on one of the track points and select "begin route". You then left click at every major turn plotting a waypoint there. The software automatically joins these waypoints up into a route.


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## Bigtallfatbloke (6 Jul 2008)

> With routes you have a waypoint at every major turn in the route and these waypoints are then linked by straight lines, (regardless of how much the path twists and turns between points).



Ok...so how close do the way points need to be to the actuall road route....i mean what constitutes a 'major turn'? Would that perhaps be say from one street to the next, or one village to the next, or maybe town to the next? Or are we talking about any change in direction ? I think I have a limit of 50 wayponts per route for me to be able to navigate it or something..or at least I think thats what I read in the manual.



> To turn a track into a route with Garmin map source is relatively easy if a little time consuming. You just right click on one of the track points and select "begin route". You then left click at every major turn plotting a waypoint there. The software automatically joins these waypoints up into a route.



I just did this a moment ago...






again what constitutes a 'major turn'....I mean I could do any loop with just 3 waypoints but I doubt that is enough or anywhere near close enough to the actual road (track).

Also when I tried to upload this route to the GPS I got a route error not enough memory....am I right to assume this means I need to break the route down into smaller componet 'legs'? What would be a good length of route to save for each leg roughly? I was thinking of say 100km blocks, with each route containing a max of 50 waypoints...does this seem reasonable ?

My favor ite thing on this so far is th ehighway thing...

..another question...this thing allows me to have pressure displayed in millibars on the barometer field. I know this is an indication of wether changes, but what doe sit tell me specifically? I mean right now it shows 1008Millibars...now is that high or low? will it rian or be sunny and warm? What can I assume from this reading?

Thanks for helping


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## Bigtallfatbloke (6 Jul 2008)

I tried again this morning to upload this route into the GPS:





But I got an error message att eh end of 3 minutes calculating saying there was not enough memory in the gPS for this route.

OK now I am worried. This is just one days ride (poss 2) on a 4-6 week tour. If I cannot figure out why this thing cannot store the routes then I have a problem because I dont have access to a PC with Mapsource installed en route.
AT NO POINT HAS GARMIN EVER STATED THIS WAS NECESSARY. IN fact the bloke on the phone said it was possible to store such routes on the unit before I bought it.

...right now this thing is looking like a seriously expensive nightmare.

Also when It does manage to take in smaller routes (say 40km) I cannot seem to name those routes in a user freindly way, say I wanted to call the route Pub to Home for arguments sake...at the moment it reads something like...City to 02 or similar nonsense.


Also I cannot delete individual routes..it seems like I can only delete all of them or nothing!

Also I tried to put in a waypoint of a campsite for which I have the GPS co ordinates...but the Co ordinate format is totally different on the gPS to that on the Ppaer map...so i can tdo that either.

...anybody got a hammer...I feel like ending it's life.

..I dont suppose there is any way I can just increase this things memory to MEGA proportions is there?


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## Bigtallfatbloke (6 Jul 2008)

Garmin online support sucketh...how user unfriendly can a help page get???
http://www.garmin.com/garmin/cms/home/support/searchsupport


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## yello (6 Jul 2008)

btfb, I fear you're getting too wound up by the GPS. Put it down, forget about it for a while. Get the other bits and pieces sorted for your tour. Take the GPS with you and play with it, get to know it but don't rely on it. Seriously, I reckon right now it's something you just don't need to concern yourself with.


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## dodgy (6 Jul 2008)

I've just come back from a week's holiday in the Lakes, so have missed this thread. A chap on another thread recommended I pop in to try and help, which I'm more than happy to 

Can I ask how you came to the conclusion that Garmin GPSmap 60Csx was the right tool for the job (touring)? I'm struggling to understand why you didn't go for the more obvious Garmin Edge cycle specific range?

Dave.

Dave.


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## yello (6 Jul 2008)

Oh Dave.... really good of you to offer help. Others, myself included, recommended that btfb exclude the Edge from his shortlist. It has functionality that he doesn't need and, hence, didn't need to afford.

Are you able to help with the route v track issue that btfb is having?


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## Bigtallfatbloke (6 Jul 2008)

> I'm struggling to understand why you didn't go for the more obvious Garmin Edge cycle specific range?


The 605 and the 705 units are cycle specific in so much as they have stuf fon them like cadence, heart rate monmiters etc...well I dont need those on a tour. I also looked at the etrex vista units but Garmin said the GPSmap was better at recieving a signal in built up areas like towns....also my unit has buttons on th efront which are better for use while riding.

..any way, I have what I have...I cannot change it, and i certainly cannot change it before my tour in time.
To be honset I am sure it is a good unit, if somewhat 'complicated' to drive. I am getting through the learning curve bit by bit which is why I am asking so many questions...Yello, hi. Yes it's dam frustrating and I will do as you say. I just wan tto get to grips with this thing as much as I can (especially the uploading of routes) before I go.

...the ironic thing her eis that I bought this to save weight and hassle of paper maps...now I have weight and hassle of paper maps AND GPS and all the bits like the Manual to carry!

...I am still convinced that Garmin should make it totally clear that this unit cannot do all they claim unless you have FULL unlimited access to a PC with internet connection every 50-100km or so...which is totally impractical.
Had I known that I would not hav ebought it..or indeed any GPS.

...anyway Time to stop moaning Big blke and move on...so does anybody have any suggestions for the issues/questions I raised above?


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## dodgy (6 Jul 2008)

Ah I see, well nothing wrong with choosing one model over another, was just interested in the thought process.

First of all, let's think about the Garmin terminology concerning routes, waypoints, tracks and courses. You'd think we'd only need one term for describing a cycle ride, but not so 

*Route*:

This is what you use to follow a series of waypoints. This can be fairly limiting due to the number of waypoints you may use to describe your route.

*Waypoints*:

On most Garmin devices, only 100 waypoint memory, check your manual. A Waypoint is a point in space, a spot on a map. It doesn't carry much more information such as distance, speed, heart rate. It's just a location marker, some of the newer devices can autoroute based on waypoints.


*Courses*:

A Garmin course is a ride that you have completed and recorded on your device. You can convert tracks and .gpx files to courses using 3rd party software, but Garmin expects a course to be a ride that you have already recorded and can follow the course at a later date (because you have already ridden it). Courses can be 13000 trackpoints (13000 gives you the required granularity to accurately describe a fairly long ride).

*GPX*:

The accepted standard for sharing gpx positional data. I believe Garmin follow the accepted standard.

Once you've got your head around that stuff up there ^^^, then you can start to think about how you want to use your device.

FWIW, I plan all my routes on my PC using Mapsource with an appropriate map, I use and recommend City Navigator 2008 Europe (DVD version) as it has autorouting and an excellent amount of detail for the whole of Europe. If you buy the SD card version of this map, you can't plan rides on your PC.
When I used a Garmin Edge 305 (no possibility of displaying maps on this device), I used to create my maps on bikeroutetoaster (Google is your friend) or download rides from motionbased. With various jiggery pokery you can make just about any format work as a navigational riding aid.

So what are the specific questions that remain unanswered? I know there'll be a few 

PS - For a really good overview of route planning, take a look at Frank Kinlan's blog (an acquaintance of mine) at http://frank.kinlan.co.uk , in particular the route planning tutorial.

Dave.


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## Bigtallfatbloke (6 Jul 2008)

Thankyou..I will take some time to 'digest' all of that. Cheers.

I am using bikeroute toaster to draw my routes out. It follows the smaller roads nicely. I am then saving the gPX file to my c drive. I then open up Mapsource and browse to the gpx file and open it. I see the dotted route line ona REALLY basic high level map. I am right clicking on the first waypoint and drawing the 'pink' line a sclose to the route as I can putting in a point at each major turn in direction (not every junction though). I am then sending this file to my Garmin.

I have succeeded in doing this with a small local 40km loop I ride each day. However I have plotted a longe rroute in bikeroute toaster (Friedrichtshafen to Basel) which si some 180km ish. I followed th esame proceddure and th eGPS started to import the route...it takes a few minutes and then displays an error message saying there is not enough memory in the gPS for this longer route.

So...how do I get around this? I know I ned to reduce th eroute distance and probably the waypoints in the route but I need to do it so I dont lose accuracy. 
Also this route is just one tiny part of a BIG tour. I had hoped to be able to store many routes (of say 100km rides) in the GPS and ride one a day. 
I would still like to do this.



> If you buy the SD card version of this map, you can't plan rides on your PC.



I was ready to buy the DVD. I spoke to Garmin support and th edealer. Both of whom effectively told me I would be wasting my money with the DVd and should buy the SD card instead. They said that using bikeroutetoaster or mapmyride etc, mapsource and the GPS unit would give me th esame results much cheaper, which is why I did not buy the DVD version. Having spent the cash on the SD card I can now not afford the DVD version...due to their bad advice.

I am finding mapsource very difficult and use runfriendly compared to say google maps for example or bikeroute toaster. I also struggle with the terminology used in the pdf manual, which should be in plain speaking english imho.

So...whilst there are many other questions I have, the main thing I need to do (and do QUICK as I leave in 5 days time) is to plot a series of 100km routes in bike route toaster in such a way as to be able to take them into the GPS via mapsource so i can 'ride the list' as it were. Would i be right in saying that I need to limit my waypoints mapsource to a maximum of 50 per route? I think that is the limit on this thing?

I have to say that if it wasnt for the kind peeps on this site Garmin would have recieved th eunit back with a strongly worded letter by now. I feel badly advised by them, al I wanted to do wa sbuy a good reliable easy to use GPS for a cycle tour. i was reay to pay for the DVD and told them so. I was clearly sold the wrong mapping product I feel.

Thanks for helping.


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## dodgy (6 Jul 2008)

Hi BTFB, I understand what you're trying to do.

What you need to do is to remove some of the granular detail on your routes to overcome the limitations of your particular GPS. If you think about it, it really isn't necessary to have a very detailed 'bread crumb' trail to follow when riding a bike on the road. You only need to know when to turn. Have you tried planning a very basic ride in bikeroutetoaster or Mapsource and simply placing markers (rt tn or lt tn) at the appropriate junctions?

Dave.


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## Bigtallfatbloke (6 Jul 2008)

It's good of you to help. specially on a Sunday...many thanks

here is a pic of what I just did in mapsource..it's my short local loop which I plotted in bikeroutetoaster.





First I added some waypoint markerflags on what i thought would be general direction changes. Then I joined the marker flags with the route tool (pink line) and took the file into my gPS. Does this picture seem to you as if I am adding th ewaypoints at sensible distances/places? could they be further apart and not affect accuracy?




> What you need to do is to remove some of the granular detail on your routes to overcome the limitations of your particular GPS. If you think about it, it really isn't necessary to have a very detailed 'bread crumb' trail to follow when riding a bike on the road. You only need to know when to turn. Have you tried planning a very basic ride in bikeroutetoaster or Mapsource and simply placing markers (rt tn or lt tn) at the appropriate junctions?



OkI will try to do this.
One reason I didt do it was because my plan is to ride along the rivers for the most part as close as i can (more scenic and flatter)

So apporoximatly how far apart is th erealistic maximum I should place a waypoint flag/marker....say i put one in th emiddle of London and the next in say Southend essex for argument s sake ...would thta be unworkable ?? I suspect they need to be MUCH closer right?...say...every junction?

...edit: I just found this on a google search:
http://motorcycleinfo.me.uk/mapsource/mapsource_for_dummies_part_one.htm
which looks useful.


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## dodgy (6 Jul 2008)

Hi BFTB,

I would add waypoints only at road junctions and name them appropriately, for example 'lt tn' for a left turn. I think bikeroutetoaster includes functionality to label a junction with a turn flag?

Dave.


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## Bigtallfatbloke (6 Jul 2008)

ok thanks.

The route above that I loaded nto the GPS sent me on some really odd and wrong directions...like sending me down a road then telling me to do a u turn and head right back up the same road in th eopposite direction etc...not what i progrmmed at all.

The thing is that when I am in Mapource I cannot see the road turnings, just the dotted line from bikerotetoaster...so i am guessing where th ejunctions are at that point. But I know htis route REALLY well and I know those waypoints are correctly placed...the GPS STILL takes that info and sends me off on a route that is not the same as what I have told it to do...so again...lots of U turns and then off on a route it cleary feels is better , but isnt.

The entire process is totally unworkable I feel without the DVD mapping....which I why I am pretty *******off with Garmin support and their dealer.

Why would the GPS change a route that I have sent to it when it calculates prior to navigation?


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## piedwagtail91 (6 Jul 2008)

personally i think you're going about it the wrong way by using routes.
they are far more restrictive than tracks/tracklogs.
your gps is superior to mine so should be able to do at least as much as mine.
i have all my century rides and a few more saved as tracklogs in my gps, about 20 in total which must cover the best part of 2000 miles..
I've never used a route as i find tracklogs(the breadcrumb trail ) better.
you could try planning your route on brt, save as gpx, import to the waypoint software and then without doing anything else send it to your gps.
I've been using the track method for years by following both the breadcrumb trail it displays and the arrow,. any waypoints are sent to the gps separately and when following a track are unnecessary, apart from poi, as the tracklog/breadcrumb trail shows every turn.see if you can do the above, then in your gps go to your saved tracks/tracklogs page and select your ride from there and get it on screen( you should be able to select a colour for your track, select a bright one) and follow it, either but simply watching the display as you're moving or by letting the gps navigate and tell you when to turn.
mine will do this so yours should, I've only ever used tracklogs for plotting rides , but will try sending a gpx to my unit to make sure it works.

EDIT, I've just imported a gpx file to my gamin pc software and sent it to my gps as a track, it's shown on the gps so i would guess it will be the same on yours.
if i wanted to follow it i'd just select it and simply follow it as it's a local ride and i know the turns. 
if it was in an unfamiliar area i let the gps navigate it and tell me when to turn.you shouldn't need to make any alterations or add any turn waypoints if you use a track.
waypoints take up a lot more room than the trackpoints in a track as they contain a lot more info. that could be why you got the memory error message.

for a tour i'd plot the days ride on brt and get it to the gps as a saved track,doing the same for each day saving them as day 1, 2 etc. i don't know how many yours will store but it should be around 20.
you can have tracks with up to 500 points which is plenty to cover the 100 mile rides i've saved.


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## MockCyclist (6 Jul 2008)

yello said:


> Thanks for helping out here MockCyclist. I was working blind, not knowing the particular GPS that btfb was using. Sounds like he's got it sussed now, or is certainly well on the way to it!



Thanks also due to NickM for posting the link to aukweb which had some really useful stuff for gps geeks:
http://www.aukweb.net/mag/index.htm

BTFB:

Battery life: I found a paid of AA batteries would last me a day and a half - probably 12 hours. 

Route v. tracks. Ideally you need to be uploading routes to your gps. BikeRouteToaster produces tracks. It's possible to convert them to routes using gpsbabel. You can navigate using a track but you lose some of the functionality of the unit.



MockCyclist said:


> You can store 50 routes, but I *think* the 1000 waypoint limit is for all 50.



That's wrong and if I'd thought about it properly I would have realised I have already had much more than that in my unit already. In fact I've successfully done a test upload of 50 routes with 241 points each and still had waypoint memory left. Really, you aren't likely to have any problem with capacity but using tracks isn't the way to go. 

When navigating using your own routes, you don't really want to be using Auto Routing so you won't be limited to 50 points per route.

Auto Routing (on the gps, not on BikeRouteToaster) is best reserved for use with the "find" feature when you just want to get to your destination without having any input on the road you take.

Pretty much all the frustration you're having since my last post is down to trying to use a track. I'll try and put down a workflow for using bikeroutetoaster if I can (I don't use that site) but if you want to get a bit further in the short term I would suggest you create a route using MapSource, upload that and experiment with it.

To get you going, this is what to do:

On your gps, delete all your routes and tracks. Press the Find button, select Waypoints, and if you've got any, press Menu and delete the lot. Start clean.

In MapSource, go to Edit > Preferences > Routing tab. Select "Use Direct Routes".

Click the Route tool and draw yourself a route, by clicking on junctions or turns, these should be joined up with STRAIGHT lines. Start the route from where you have gps lock, in other words, from your home I presume.
In MapSource, of the four tabs Maps, Waypoints, Routes, Tracks, you should end up with a line on the Routes tab only.
Upload the Route to your gps and it should appear under the Routes icon.

Now, if you press Find, Waypoints, you MAY find that you have some waypoints even though you didn't have any before and you didn't select to transfer any. That's ok.

You must be able to get to this stage before you can proceed. When you do, select the Route and pick Navigate. Select Off road (that's important).

You should then end up with a map of your home area with a pink line starting your route. It will start as a straight line and may not follow your chosen road precisely.


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## MockCyclist (6 Jul 2008)

Bigtallfatbloke said:


> here is a pic of what I just did in mapsource..it's my short local loop which I plotted in bikeroutetoaster.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is looking good. I can see the wiggly line track and it's listed on the Tracks tab. But don't upload this to the gps.

Putting your own waypoints in and joining them up is a good way to do this. You can re-name the waypoints to something useful. However - if you create a user waypoint at each turn or junction you will probably run out of capacity.

You don't need to specify any waypoints at all to follow a route and if you're short of time I would suggest you don't bother with them. Just use the Route tool to join up the turns and junctions with straight lines.

If the green track shown was a bridleway on the map, I would probably put two or three more points in to describe the route slightly better.

I would put two more to the top right to define two changes of direction, and another in the shaded area bottom left to pull the line toward the path a bit better. 

Otherwise, it's ok, but don't upload the track.


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## Bigtallfatbloke (6 Jul 2008)

Hi, and thanks again for sticking with me...



> Select Off road (that's important).



I have the follow road option selected in the GPS...so i switch that off right?

The route verses track thing is somewhat confusing to me at the moment. Imay try out both ideas as I do need to get over 2000 miles of routes(or tracks?) into this thing PDQ.If you take a look at the pictures I have posted above you can see the purple straight line between waypoints. That is the line I drew in mapsource using the routing tool...so I assume from that , that I am importing ''routes' currently. Indeed I see routes to select under the routing icon in the gps and have managed to get it to navigate a route I put into it from BRT and Mapsource...however it does change the route a bit (like it has a mind of its own) and tells me to do a lot of unecessary U turns ( I have the avoid U turns option ticked)

...I learned how to upload custom POIs tonight using POI loader and some free POIs that Brock kindly pointed me in the direction of...which is good....I now have a few campsites to head to..indeed i have managed to select a french farm and get it to navigate me there from Essex...which is a result, although again it is a GPS calculated route and not one I put in myself...which is what i need to be able to do comfortably and so that I can trust my routes/tracks.



> Otherwise, it's ok, but don't upload the track.



How do I NOT do that then...I will look for an option in mapsource meantime.

This is a great help all, many thanks indeed.


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## Bigtallfatbloke (6 Jul 2008)

Any better?










I cant see any routing option...maybe it's called somethings else?


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## MockCyclist (6 Jul 2008)

Bigtallfatbloke said:


> ok thanks.
> 
> The route above that I loaded nto the GPS sent me on some really odd and wrong directions...like sending me down a road then telling me to do a u turn and head right back up the same road in th eopposite direction etc...not what i progrmmed at all.
> 
> ...



This could be down to Routing settings and the use of Auto-Routing when you don't want it.

On your gps, go to Settings > Routing.

Guidance method, pick Prompted (but we're working on Off-Road for now)
Follow Road method, pick Prompted
Next Turn Pop-up, On.

Follow Road Options:
Off Route Re-calculation, pick Prompted


The Auto-Routing thing drove me nuts at first and almost caused me to chuck the gps in the nearest ditch ... there's perhaps a tendency to think that Auto-Routing is what you want, after all you've bought a gadget and auto must be better ... but in fact, when you've plotted your own route you want it to follow that, not its idea of a better way home.

Auto-routing is for when you don't know the way, and you want it to work it out. I think I already said something like that.




Ah, we're cross-posting again ... I'll try and keep up

If you have Follow Road option turned on, the unit will try and get you on a road or track that your mapping is aware of, so that option is useless if you want to follow a bridle path that it is not aware of.

However, you may want to Follow Road when you are using Auto-Routing, that's why you want the option to be Prompted.

A really silly outcome of picking the wrong options: Ask it to Auto-Route to some destination, but pick Off-Road. You'll get a straight line between where you're standing and where you want to go. Fine if your bike has wings.


To avoid uploading the track, you just untick the Track box on the Transfer dialogue in MapSource.


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## Bigtallfatbloke (6 Jul 2008)

> To avoid uploading the track, you just untick the Track box on the Transfer dialogue in MapSource.



Ah!...so simple and staring me right in the face

Ok I have Guidance method =off road
Follow road method=promted
Next turn pop up = on

follow road options
Off route calculation= promted
claculation method =quicket calculation
Calculate routes for = bicycle
avoid = (I ticked all5 boxes here)

all the routes and tracks are deleted now.


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## MockCyclist (6 Jul 2008)

Ah, you don't have a Routing tab because you don't have a routable map in MapSource - you have the basic mapping. So ignore me on that one. You're using Direct Routes by default.

I think you should be able to do a successful gps navigation of your existing loop route, as long as the corrrect options are set. When you pick the route and select Navigate, the gps should not calculate anything at all - if it does, something is wrong. You should be able to cycle your loop, see the roads on the map and the pink route line. It will beep when you approach a waypoint, other than that, it's up to you to follow the line and compare it with the map.

The gps pointer will show where you actually are, which will be the road of course, but it won't necessarily be following the pink line precisely. Only when you get to a waypoint will it correspond.


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## Bigtallfatbloke (7 Jul 2008)

I tried plotting a route in mapsource without using bikeroutetoaster first...so I just used the basic map, put in some waypoints at the towns en the route and then used the routing tool to link the waypoints by following the red line on the map as closely as I could between the waypoints/towns. I then took it into the gPS (without th etracks because there were none), however all I get in there is the pink/purple straightline route line overlayed on th emap but no line that closely follows the smaller roads ,or indeed any roads at all. I couldnt navigate to that.


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## Bigtallfatbloke (7 Jul 2008)

so ...I then went back into Bikeroute toaster and plotted the route (or is it a track?) in there without adding any waypoints except at the start and end (but it shows over a thousand track points in the summary page).
I then saved the GPX file and took it into Mapsource, where I didnt have to use the routing tool because it automatically came up as a pink (route) line. Here is what I saw at each stage:




BRT view just before I saved to GPX



Mapsource view just before I saved to the GPS

When saving to the GPS I could not select th etrack option as it was blocked. Just route and waypoint were ticked.

In the gPS I then went to routes>Friedrichshafen>enter and up came a map of where i live in Essex!...I used the toggle button to go over to Germany and found Friedrichshafen and zoomed in. However again I see only the pink route line overliad on the map and no detailed track following the roads I plotted in BRT (!st pic above)...so again I can 't navigate to that.

I've missed something here I know it...only I dont know what 'IT' is


I want to have the GPS guide me along the same track path that I plotted in BRT...street by street...I would like to use the 'Highway' view on the gPS whilst riding and just have it playback the track I plotted in BRT as I ride along it. At the moment that pink line over th emap is too 'high level'....to be honest i may as well jus thave a paper map on a bar bag and a rough marker pen line roughly drawn on the plastic cover map holder....I mean it would work, but I bought the gPS so that I dont have to stop all the time to read a map...I just want to follow the line on the highway option and enjoy the scenery.

..so i then went back and re plotted the track in BRT and took it into mapsource which then looked like this just before I took it into the GPS:





In the gPS i then went to Tracks and selected the only track listed (track 001)...I selected a fetching green for the track line and ticked 'show on map'. When I select the map I see the black dotted line overlaid in green running street my street, and a purple/pink 'route line' roughly following it (strange as I didnt use the route tool in mapsource this time)...I am guessing that this pink line relates to the previous time when I took the 'route ' into the GPS...Under the route icon I see just one listed, I called it 'friedrichshafen'....perhaps that is why? (if I select 'backtrack'..I see the same lines...but I cannot get his to navigate itself on the track page.

...(takes a breather) ..So...that is where I guess I need to use the route tool in mapsource and take a route in and not just atracl right?...so i hav eit 'navigate ' the route which is actually a detailed street by street 'route' (..man all this terminology...)


Then I went back to mapsource and added some waypoints and used th erouting tool to connect them up. This is what i saw just before trying to upload it to the GPS:





The GPS recievd the info and I had it 'navigate' the route...it started but then I got a route calculation error message saying that there was not enough memory (again).

So....thats where i am at 2:38 in the morning after another full day in the GPS saddle!

So what did I do wrong here....'cos I'm thinking neither routes or tracks are working...I know it's pilot error and not the machine, but blimey, this is WAY WAY to complicated.


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## yello (7 Jul 2008)

Hang in there btfb! You're on that learning curve and I reckon you're doing bloody well! I reckon you've just about cracked it.

I'm following this with interest and learning stuff too. So thanks for asking the questions!


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## piedwagtail91 (7 Jul 2008)

you're making life very hard for yourself converting a usable track from br toaster to a route.
try a ride without planning anything, switch on the gps and let it record your ride.when you get back transfer the tracklog you've just made to waypoint manager and br toaster, it should fit perfectly over the roads in br toaster.(i've never used brt so am guessing)thats a track log it works both ways, gps to pc and pc/brt to gps.
you could plan your tour using 500 trackpoint sections, send them all to the gps as tracks, select them all to be shown on screen and highlight them the same colour.
on tour you wont have to do anything other than change the battery and switch the gps on , your ride will be displayed for the entire tour.


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## MockCyclist (7 Jul 2008)

There's something going on here I don't understand. You say screenshot 2 is MapSource with the brt gpx file loaded - but MapSource is showing a Route.

Then in screenshot 3 you say you loaded MapSource up with another brt route, but this time it's a Track.

How do you do that ?


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## Bigtallfatbloke (7 Jul 2008)

> you could plan your tour using 500 trackpoint sections, send them all to the gps as tracks, select them all to be shown on screen and highlight them the same colour.
> on tour you wont have to do anything other than change the battery and switch the gps on , your ride will be displayed for the entire tour.



This sounds likewhat i want...a simple life...so I could store 10+ 100km rides say as tracks and simply have the gps navigate me along those tracks each day? is that what you mean?...That is what i need
Thing is I just tried that by plotting the track in BRT and taking it into Mapsource and, without changing anyhting in mapsource, straight away took it into the GPS (see above pics)...I couldnt manage to get the gps to navigate along the track it imported though...(back to the manual BTFB)..I will try the ride thing when it stops raining.



> here's something going on here I don't understand. You say screenshot 2 is MapSource with the brt gpx file loaded - but MapSource is showing a Route.
> 
> Then in screenshot 3 you say you loaded MapSource up with another brt route, but this time it's a Track.
> 
> How do you do that ?



Dunno...as soon as I took the GPX file into mapsource it automatically displayed the line as a pink route line. (EDIT)...I just mchecked my settings in BRT (see pic above) and I had it on autu routing to follow the roads easier when plotting. Could that be the reason??

I am going to go through both processes again this morning...I'm not going to surrender

(edit):

Ok I went back to BRT and removed the auto routing. Then I plotted a (I am going to call it a line) by clicking on each junction and turn in the road to keep it as close to the road as possible. I saw this in mapsource just before taking it into the GPS:






In the gPS I went to tracks and selected this track. I changed the colour to green (easier to see) and selected map. I now see the map with the loop (as above) super imposed onto the city europe map in the GPS...but I still cannot get the gPS to navigate me along that track at all...how do I do that?


*ANOTHER question if i may:*

_Is there any way I can by pass mapsource and take th etrack/route directly into the gPS from the pc? I cannot see any option for this in BRT...how about if I plotted the route on some other site...say google maps/earth....? I am thinking that if I can do that then I will be able to use cyber cafes en route to plan and upload rides to the GPS?_

*And another*

How do i delete INDIVIDUAL routes & tracks from the GPS? _Currently I only see an option to delete ALL of the routes or tracks._


*And another*
_What should my map settings in the gPS be? Currently I have them set like this:
Orientation Track up
Below 8m
Auto zoom on
Detail Normal
Lock on road on_

...getting there..getting there...


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## piedwagtail91 (7 Jul 2008)

not sure about routes but if you go to the saved tracklog screen and highlight a track you get the option to delete just that tack.
my setting are
track up
below 3m
zoom off
detail most
lock on road off

I've Had a quick go on brtoaster and like you say there doesn't seem to be an option for save to gps only to a file.


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## MockCyclist (7 Jul 2008)

Hmmm ... I tried creating a route in b r toaster with Auto Routing to see if that made the difference - it didn't. So I just don't understand how you ended up with a Route (although that's what I'm aiming for !)

Your last try and it's a track again ... as I would expect.

I think what piedwagtail91 is getting at is to just follow the dotted line on the gps screen. That's fine, if that's what you want to do. I've never done that as such, except by default really when I've gone back on somewhere I've just been.

You have capacity for 20 tracks of 500 points each, a bit less than 50 routes of 250 points each. Aukweb says: "...20 tracks of up to 500 points each - enough to cover about 1000km in total, in normal circumstances". 

and of routes it says

"...50 Routes of 250 Routepoints each, totalling 12,500 points which equates to *about 12,500km of navigated road"*


But - when following a track, you don't get some of the gps features, you don't get Distance to Next, Distance to Destination, and probably some other stuff. Tracks aren't meant for navigating.

Re uploading from a cyber cafe, I don't know ... we had the earlier post that said you can use gpsbabel, I've never used it for upload to gps, but I agree that it runs stand-alone so if you can get it on a memory stick it might work. But then, what if cyber cafe doesn't have the Garmin gps drivers in Windows, you could run into some insurmountable problem that spoils it.



Bigtallfatbloke said:


> Any better?



Can you get back to this, which is a Route, upload it and follow it, using Off Road ?



You can delete an individual route, I think you highlight it in the route list, press Menu and Delete.

_What should my map settings in the gPS be? Currently I have them set like this:
Orientation Track up 
Below 8m
Auto zoom on
Detail Normal
Lock on road on_

I much prefer orientaton with North up. The map doesn't annoyingly rotate and you know at a glance whether you are pedalling North South, etc.

Auto zoom - turn it OFF. Another annoying feature. Just use In and Out on the gps till the scale suits you..

Lock on Road - I have it turned OFF. Hmmm, I wonder if that feature will compensate for the difference between your straight Route line and the twisty road? I'll try it sometime, but I doubt it will work when my route follow a canal towpath which my mapping doesn't know about.

I still think you can navigate the above Route. 



Unless you can tell me how you got the b r toaster to appear as a Route, my workflow will be:

1) Prepare route using B R Toaster, without Auto-Routing. Limit 250 points. Save as gpx
2) Open gpx file in gpsbabel, convert Track file to Route file (easy)
3) Open converted gpx file in MapSource, it should appear under Routes.
4) Transfer Route to gps
5) Navigate using Off-Road


I've got to know if your navigation of your circular Route will work for you, as you expect.


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## Bigtallfatbloke (7 Jul 2008)

Ok...I am reading and 'digesting' that last post...meantime...I wonder if you would have any idea why I am unable to upload these POI files to my gPS? I am unsure what format my GPS needs for POI files and if these are compatable?



http://www.gps-data-team.com/poi/germany/accommodation/ACSI_DE.html

http://www.gps-data-team.com/poi/france/accommodation/Camping_fr.html

http://www.gps-data-team.com/poi/france/accommodation/Aire_Camping_Car.html


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## piedwagtail91 (7 Jul 2008)

i would disagree that tracks aren't meant for navigating, they're far less hassle than routes.
most of the stuff down loadable from the internet is a track/tracklog.
if you use a track in conjunction with waypoints for poi, cafes shops or whatever you can get the distance to the next waypoint on the route, providing the gps is set up correctly.
the advantage is that you don't have to start putting waypoints in at turns and having a gps full of redundant waypoints afterwards.
I've used all the gps features following our clubs 150 mile ride, i had all the summits in as well as stops and it wasn't a problem getting the info.
but I as using a saved track, not a route.
the only waypoints I've ever needed are cafes summits and bike shops ,along with a few poi's.
a clubmate. before he emigrated, would ring midweek and say plan a ride in the peak district/lake district/wales and give a few place names to visit, so i'd waypoint them on tracklogs and then join them up into a 50 mile ride and save it as a tracklog. when we drove out to the start it was a case of switch on the gps and follow the trail, we never got lost or took a wrong turn.
most of the time we didn't use the navigate a route feature, i just looked at the screen when a junction came into view and followed the track displayed on the screen.it couldn't be easier.


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## Bigtallfatbloke (7 Jul 2008)

> You have capacity for 20 tracks of 500 points each, a bit less than 50 routes of 250 points each. Aukweb says: "...20 tracks of up to 500 points each - enough to cover about 1000km in total, in normal circumstances".
> 
> and of routes it says
> 
> "...50 Routes of 250 Routepoints each, totalling 12,500 points which equates to about 12,500km of navigated road"



Ok...so (correct me if I am wrong)...this means that I can plot 20 tracks in BRT with a maximum of 500 track point markers in each track (ride lets say) and save then all to my GPS? This would allow me to follow (manually) the green track line on my GPS but not allow my to hav eit navigate me along those tracks right? 

As i need the GPS to navigate me along my pre programmed 'rides' am I right then to say that the only way I can achieve this is to use th erouting tool and plot the route points in mapsource before taking into the gPS?

If this is the case then I would need to know the maximum number of track points in BRT, AND th emax number of waypoints on the map source route I can use per 'ride'. That way i can ensure that the GPS can accept a series of rides/routes that i can then have it navigate me along each day.

Does that make sense??


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## yello (7 Jul 2008)

You've got me reaching for my 305 manual now! I'm not sure which I use; track, route or course! After sending the gpx to the 305, I look it up under 'courses' so I'd always assumed that was what it was! Maybe 'course' is specific terminology to Garmin? I don't bother with waypoints/trackpoints or anything, if there's a turning ahead I just look at the unit and see which way the breadcrumbs go.

Darn you btfb, you've got me playing with GPSs now!!


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## Bigtallfatbloke (7 Jul 2008)

..I havent ridden my bike properly since I got this thing!

...piedwagtail...thanks for helping. 
Can i ask...with your 'method' are you simply looking at the screen on your gps and following the track line or is the map moving as you move?

The way i understand what you are doing is that it is the same as taking a paper map, marking where you want to ride on it with a marker pen and then simply looking at tit at each junction...am i right?

I can do that...no problem but I bought the gPS unit so that I didnt have to stop to look at maps as I rode. I want it to navigate along a pre programmed 'ride' so that the map is moving as I ride along the green line.

Can i have the unit navigate me along my ride by using tracks like you suggest? I cannot get mine to do that.


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## just jim (7 Jul 2008)

I love this thread! It's like the Da Vinci Code but for GPS. Or something.


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## Bigtallfatbloke (7 Jul 2008)

I aim to pleeze


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## yello (7 Jul 2008)

just jim said:


> I love this thread! It's like the Da Vinci Code but for GPS. Or something.



In all seriousness, it is a good thread. Btfb is asking the questions that many would, I expect, be afraid to! Or should I rephrase that... that _*I*_ would be afraid to!!


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## just jim (7 Jul 2008)

If I ever purchase a Garmin this thread will be my first stop.


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## Bigtallfatbloke (7 Jul 2008)

> If I ever purchase a Garmin this thread will be my first stop




DON'T DO IT!!!...unless you are a very young man with many years ahead of you & nothing better to do with your life

Seriously peeps...I really REALLY appreciate all th einput from everybody... I am a nob, and I ask nob questions sometimes, that is how I learn. One day I hope I will have this thing under my command instead of me under it's. Then i will do all i can to help put back some of the help I am getting here when somebody else heads across to the Dark Side


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## Bigtallfatbloke (7 Jul 2008)

whilst i am still trying to figure all this out I came up with a plan for my tour...I think waht i will be doing is using th epaper maps to show me roughly where the towns are on the river banks I intend to follow. Then I will add each town as a waypoint into the GPS and have it navigate me between those towns as I ride.
If i keep the distances of each 'navigation' to about 50km it should do the job. Ok it still won't be taking me exactly where i decide and I will be under it's command still, however my main reason for wanting to pre programme rides is to avoid BIG hills and motorways and bigger roads where possible. Clinging to the river banks should do that pretty much and offer a more scenic ride.
The only thing it wont achieve is to have me ride along the actual footpaths next to the rivers as I suspect they arnt even on the map mostly. Also I won thave a log of where I went for my trip 'log'/ memories etc.

However I think it will get me where i want to be, and will be particularly useful at getting me through the towns and out the other side.

I have th eGPS set to use a 'Bicycle' routing option. However it is still selecting some very busy roads like the A127 from Southend to Romford/London for example...ok it's not a motorway/highway but it is a KILLER road for cyclists. Also it has no way of avoiding hills, except by me choosing my waypoints from a topographical map, or (as I am doing) following natural features like rivers which last time I looked dont flow across valleys!

I am still going to persist with this route planning and try to store routes still. I think the key lies in understanding exactly what the maximum track, route and waypoints are that i can use in a single 'ride' so that the routes can be loade dinto the GPS without me getting continuos memory insufficiant error messages.

I am going to ask a BIG favour here now...I hope thats ok.

What would really help me here would be if someone could kindly go into Bike route toaster and plot a ride using the maximum number of track points/waypoints possible , so that if that route were stored into the GPS 20 times it would have enough memory to accept all of those routes (rides). Then post a screen shot of the Map page and the summary page for that 50km ride(1000km/20 tracks @500points max?)

Then take it into Mapsource and do what needs doing in there as far as route tools and waypoints are concerned and post a screen shot of that as well.

That way I (and others ) will be able to see what it looks liek as well as which options/settings were selected in both BRT and Mapsource.

I know that is asking a LOT, but I think a picture speaks a thousand words sometimes and this is probably one of those times.

...so ...(gets down on knees) ...can anybody do this for me?


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## Magna (7 Jul 2008)

Sounds like you're having a right old time with this gadget. Time to call it a day on your efforts I wonder? Am watching with great interest to see if you can get value out of this as I WAS interested in the idea of getting one myself. Good luck.


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## MockCyclist (7 Jul 2008)

When we say "navigate" it is actually nothing more that looking at the gps screen and making sure the little current position thingy, ie the bike, is actually following a line. The Routing line is kind of pink and solid, and is usually a straight line which approximately follows the road. The track line is a thinner dotted line which may well represent a more accurate position.

So, "Navigation", in either mode, is basically similar. 

If BTFB just wanted to do a few days of touring I'd probably say oh, go with tracks; my concern is that there's insufficient capacity to do his big tour - what is it going to be - 2000 miles?



piedwagtail91 said:


> most of the stuff down loadable from the internet is a track/tracklog.



Yes that's right, the mappping sites use track format as well.



piedwagtail91 said:


> ... you don't have to start putting waypoints in at turns and having a gps full of redundant waypoints afterwards.



OK, but you can plan a route without using "waypoints" as well, in fact I don't usually position ANY waypoints on my routes, I just plan the route as a series of mouse clicks joined by straight lines.





Bigtallfatbloke said:


> I have th eGPS set to use a 'Bicycle' routing option. However it is still selecting some very busy roads like the A127 ...



Yes, that's why I think planning your own route is more or less essential. If you're going to accept the gps' planned routes, you don't need to do any route planning - just use Auto-Routing, Follow Road, that's it. Don't even need a pc.



Bigtallfatbloke said:


> What would really help me here would be if someone could kindly go into Bike route toaster and plot a ride using the maximum number of track points/waypoints possible , so that if that route were stored into the GPS 20 times it would have enough memory to accept all of those routes (rides). Then post a screen shot of the Map page and the summary page for that 50km ride(1000km/20 tracks @500points max?)



I did this on Friday I think. I duplicated a 241-point route 50 times, ie the same route with 50 different names, and uploaded the whole lot to my unit. I still had some waypoint memory left. There *may* be a saving by having 50 sets of 241 identical route points, I just don't know, obviously planning 50 different 250-point routes is a massive task ... unless someone can automate a slight variation in the co-ordinates of each .gpx file



Bigtallfatbloke said:


> ... the maximum track, route and waypoints are that i can use in a single 'ride' so that the routes can be loade dinto the GPS without me getting continuos memory insufficiant error messages.



I'm not convinced that Insufficient Error messages are down to straight overloading of waypoints as such. Are you getting this message when you do a Route Calculation? If so I *think* it might be an internal overload error. When you try to upload a route with too many waypoints, you get a pop-up says "Route Truncated" and the route just stops at 250 points in. 

Regarding the number of points, MapSource has an in-built facility to reduce the number of waypoints. I downloaded routes (oh, tracks, actually) from GPStracks, joined them up into a massive circular route, divided it into 100 km sections, then down-sampled each section to 250 points or less. Converted to route, upload to gps. That's it. No messing about with waypoints. 

So you needn't be too concerned if you end up with a route with too many points - this can be dealt with.


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## Bigtallfatbloke (7 Jul 2008)

Ok...thanks...again.
While I am reading that, let me post this:









BRT views 






Mapsource view after adding waypoints and using routing tool to join them up.

Hopefully you can see what i have done here. I decided to limit the number of trackpoints in BRT by turning off autorouting and spacing my clicks further apart..pretty much town by town approx.
I then took it into Mapsource, added waypoint markers and used th erouting tool, then took it into the gPS.
When I asked it to 'navigate' it started calculating...ran for about a minute and then displayed the all to familier insufficiant memory error again.

Looking at the map I can see th estraight pink route line and the black track line. The track line does not follow th eroads at all (in fact some of it is over water!). It is a reasonable 'highlevel' route, similar to those i have seen on small aircraft GPS screens, but it would be useless for street my street navigation in a busy town.

Whay is confusing me is why I am running out of memory when if you look at the summary sheet for the BRT page it shows only 19 trackpoints.


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## Bigtallfatbloke (7 Jul 2008)

> Are you getting this message when you do a Route Calculation? If so I *think* it might be an internal overload error. When you try to upload a route with too many waypoints, you get a pop-up says "Route Truncated" and the route just stops at 250 points in.




No, I only get the message when I have imported a route and told the gPS to 'navigate' it. I hav ejust selected a waypoint in central london and the unit easily 'navigated' to it from my home some 50 miles ish away without any error messages.

I hav ebeen getting 'TRACK truncated' messages on almost all of the rides I have imported to the GPS from mapsource, including the 40 km short loop around my home.



> Regarding the number of points, MapSource has an in-built facility to reduce the number of waypoints



ok I will try to find it...where should I look to look?


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## MockCyclist (7 Jul 2008)

I just don't know whay you're getting an error message, and I just don't know why you're even getting a "calculating" message at all. When you navigate a route that you've planned, you simply don't want the unit to do any calculating - you just want it to display it with a pointer which represents you on yer bike. Are you SURE you've got the routing options set correctly? 

I think maybe there's some old stuff in there. Maybe you should go to the Trip Computer page, Menu, Reset everything.

I planned your route in b r toaster, 1256 points, downloaded it to MapSource, downsampled it to 229 points. It's in b r toaster, public, you should find it if you search for "Basel to Friedrichshafen". Can you get that file, get it into MapSource, then into your gps? It should go in effortlessly as a track. I just did it. See if you could navigate that route on your gps, do you see the track overlaid on the roads ?


I'm losing sight of the problem because you seem to be getting errors and results that defy explanation. No way should you get a Truncated message on your short loop, something is amiss. 

You shouldn't have to do any of this planning a route on top of a track stuff, all you do is click the mouse wherever you think you want to flag a direction change, and it all joins up with straight lines. Make sure you have less than 250 points. Save as gpx. I can flag as many changes of direction I need, including streets in towns, and get a good length of ride in 250 points.

The only slightly tedious bit is converting the Track to a Route using gpsbabel.

Then you use MapSource to upload it to the gps.

Navigate. Off Road. No calculation. Just a solid pink line on your gps map and a black triangle which you maintain on top of the pink line. s'easy.

You need to test this with your local loop, the simple route you did ages ago, because your gps won't match up Basel to a black triangle in Essex.


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## MockCyclist (7 Jul 2008)

Ding !!!!!

You're asking your gps to get you from your front door to Basel. It's a long way and how many small roads do you think your gps will have to evaluate to get you there ?

You gotta test this with your local loop route.


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## piedwagtail91 (7 Jul 2008)

I've used both methods for navigating. for my 100 mile rides which are fairly local i look at the screen when i get near a turn and check which way to go. if i'm somewhere I've not been before i let the gps navigate me with the pop up screen and warning bleep.( using a tracklog) because i want to view countryside i ahven't seen before.
we used that method in my daughters car last year to get from newquay to port Isaac it's just like sat nav.

i think it's good that you've got two differnt appraoaches from different people to help you, i've never used routes but may try one to at least learn how it's done in case i need it!

i agree with mockcyclist test everything out to get confident with it on your local rides.use both methods, both are right you just have to choose which you prefer.


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## Bigtallfatbloke (7 Jul 2008)

> downsampled it to 229 points



how do I do that?

I will search for your file on BRT.

Ok...ref 'DING!'....When I select the route in the gps I then see two options at the bottom of the screen...'Navigate' and 'map'.
I push Navigate because I want it to navigate me ALONG that route. If i push Map, then I see the track line in black and the route line in purple overliad on the map.

When I select navigate...it seems to try to calculate how to get me from my house to Basel (not what I want) and it is then that I get the error code. I want to see the little black arrow at the start waypoint on my route (so Friedrichshafen town centre) ready to take me along the BLACK line (i.e the same ride I put into BRT).

I spoke to Garmin today. The chap was helpful and basicaly he had me turn off th eunit and re fprmat/set it whilst turned off by holding the enter and menu leys down at the same time whilst re starting the unit. I lost my POIs which I have now re uploaded, and I have re set up the unit the way I liked it (i.e 24 hour clock, km not miles etc).

He then said that I should use the auto routing feature in BRT to plot the ride, save to a gpx file and upload into mapsource. Then he said I should only need to have 2 waypoints..START & Finish, and join the two via a single route line with the routing tool. He also confirmned that the unit cannot navigate/follow a track, only a route. H etold me to ensure that mapsource was set to 'follow roads' by going to preferences>routing (ther eis no tab which I can see like we already discussed) and auto route...which i cannot do..it seems...because I do not have th eDVD.

I did exactly what he said and th emapsource screenshot lookes like this:






...edit: I treid to find your file on brt...but see no seach option...???


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## piedwagtail91 (7 Jul 2008)

the bicycle option is pretty meaningless , i took it up with garmin, but they haven't done anything.
all it appears to do is alter the timings for the "time to next waypoint".
i thought it may avoid killer junctions but no such luck.


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## Bigtallfatbloke (7 Jul 2008)

I agree it's pretty hopeless for a cyclist really.

I still can tsee any option to reduce/limit the waypoints in Mapsource..I read th ehelp section and still cant figure out how to do it. Does the fact that I only have th ebase map in there make any difference?

...this is driving me nutz...right now I am still regretting evry penny I spent on it. I am seriously considering not even taking it on tour at all....all it means to me at the moment is an extra 200+g to carry...plus the manual of course.

Time to take a break and clear my head.


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## dodgy (7 Jul 2008)

You could try reducing waypoints with something like GPSbabel or GPSVisualiser?

Dave.


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## Bigtallfatbloke (7 Jul 2008)

Th elast route I took into the GPS had just 4 waypints in it & th eone before that just 2 and it still showed a Track truncated message on upload.

I have looked at that gps bable but I jus tcant ge tmy head around it, and I cannot get the mapsource to reduce waypoints because ther eis no option I can find at all to do so. Like I already said I am not working on a map imported into mapsource I can only see the poor detail of the base map.

I have spent three solid days and mos tthe night on this and right now I have to say I am pretty peeved with Garmin. Sorry , but this thing is just not user fiendly at all, really, if there is anybody out there considering getting this gizmo then my advice is simple...save your shekkles...there wont be emough days of your life left to waste on this hi teck box of false promises.


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## MockCyclist (7 Jul 2008)

Bigtallfatbloke said:


> Th elast route I took into the GPS had just 4 waypints in it & th eone before that just 2 and it still showed a Track truncated message on upload



It was probably a track and had more than 500 points even though it might have had only 4 user, visible, waypoints. I have no other explanation for it.

To downsample a track, you double-click its title under Tracks in MapSource. Select Filter, set Maximum Points to 250.

I think you've got to have a log-in for BikeRouteToaster to search other public files.

Ref the errors you are getting, the penny dropped for me when I realised your gps is finding a way to get you to the start of your route.




Bigtallfatbloke said:


> I want to see the little black arrow at the start waypoint on my route (so Friedrichshafen town centre)



That can only happen when you get to Friedrichshafen town centre with your gps.



Bigtallfatbloke said:


> ... use the auto routing feature in BRT to plot the ride



I've covered this. Auto-Routing gives you zillions of points and follows a road that you might not want to take. You can down-sample it in MapSource if you want but why not just use your gps to do this when you get to Basel ?



Bigtallfatbloke said:


> H etold me to ensure that mapsource was set to 'follow roads' by going to preferences>routing



I've covered this. You can't do Auto-Routing in MapSource because you don't have a routable map, City Navigator, installed in MapSource.


If that screenshot is of a b r toaster route you picked Start and Finish but had Auto Routing turned OFF. 

You would get exactly the same result using your gps, if you asked it to navigate a route between Basel and F??? with Off Road selected ... it assumes you can find a direct route between the two points.

You'll get the same result in MapSource if you just click 2 points for a route - a straight line.



The answers you got from Garmin, are the ones I would give if I'd been asked how to make the gps operate like a tom tom. The question is, do you want to have any input to your route preparation for your tour or are you content to accept your gps' or bikeroutetoasters route?


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## Bigtallfatbloke (7 Jul 2008)

..erm...like I have been trying all along I want to be able to plot my own detailed rides on a street by street basis and then have the GPS play that ride back to me as I ride along it keeping my little black arrow on the 'guide line' as I go.

I have no problem getting this thing to select it's own routes for me, but that is not what i want from it for the most part.

TOM TOM are far easier to work imho, they have a touch screen interface and even my wife can work it within minutes of opening the box. The only thing it doesnt have is battery life...but as I am discovering niethe rdoes this GPS...it is still eating up batteries at an unbelieveable and unacceptable rate....in fact I would say that it's probably no better than my wifes tom tom on battery use.

I will persevere with this..but frankly I'd rather have my money and the last three days of my life back.

I will try to find that waypoint limiter...

Thanks.


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## MockCyclist (7 Jul 2008)

Bigtallfatbloke said:


> ...I want to be able to plot my own detailed rides on a street by street basis and then have the GPS play that ride back to me as I ride along it keeping my little black arrow on the 'guide line' as I go



Well, it will do that, and you're not so far away. But don't get bogged down with Auto-Routing and Follow Road.



MockCyclist said:


> ... my workflow will be:
> 
> 1) Prepare route using B R Toaster, without Auto-Routing. Limit 250 points. Save as gpx
> 2) Open gpx file in gpsbabel, convert Track file to Route file (easy)
> ...



This will do it. Possibly using tracks is another approach. Ok, so the gpsbabel isn't so user-friendly but the options that you pick are sticky once you set them (I think).


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## Bigtallfatbloke (7 Jul 2008)

..erm...hold on...(quickly grabs large wooden object).....it looks like...erm...yes...(puts on glasses for closer inspection)....that after running the waypont limiter in mapsource....that I have three routes (different titles) from Fredharbour to Basil in the gPS...all with a full track line and route line.....yes they are definatly in there...

...so assuming that the balck arrow will arrive at the staret point when I get over there like you said I should (crosses fingers and adopts praying position) by able to play back the routes as I ride them whilst looking at the direction line under the highway option right?


PLeeeeeeeeeeese say that's correct

If it is then all I need to do now is plot all the rides in one by one (I see saome late nights coming my way before Friday!)


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## MockCyclist (7 Jul 2008)

I don't know if you have a route or a track. You can only use the Highway page with a route.

I guess you have a track with less than 250 points. This screenshot shows how I convert my tracks to routes.

In MapSource, save your track as a gpx file. In fact it's the gpx file that you get from b r toaster, it's a track file. In gpsbabel, that's the input file. I create a second file by changing the filename slightly on the Output side.

Click the Filter button to bring up the window to transform a track to a route.

You should end up with a gpx file which you can open straight back in MapSource and it should appear on the Routes tab.

This is the route that you transfer. 

You are going to do a test run with a local route, aren't you? It took me a lot more than a week to perfect (?) all this.

Tip: Give each route a numeric prefix so that they appear in the Route list on your gps in the order that you will be riding them. in MapSource, double-click the route name, something like RPT001 to RPT229, and call it 00) Basel


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## Bigtallfatbloke (7 Jul 2008)

Ok thanks..

I think I have routes listed in the gPS, n fact they are routes because they are listed under 'routes' right? I see the black dotted track line as well as the pink route line when I call up the route map. I converted the track to a route in mapsource by clicking the routing tool on the start and at various points along the loop ride (a bit like the old dot to dot pictures i had as a kid!)...so the file I saved was a route file. However your method sounds quicker as it appears it will simply convert the entire track line into a route line in one or two clicks right? 

It wa sby using the filter in mapsource that managed to upload several day long ride routes into the GPS without memory issues or track truncated messages.

For thoise watching this thread on the sideline:





..well one of them anyway.

Ok , I am going to try to convert the next BRT track into a route as per your suggestion and see how I get on.

Am i going to do a test ride with the GPS...yep...thats the plan...I will ride my normal loop but follow the route in the gPS...then I will pick somewhere at randon and have it guide me there, then I will try to pick up the route I was riding from where i left off or a new point further along say (after a detour) and then get home. Hopefully all will work.

If I can do all that in the highway option I will happier.


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## Bigtallfatbloke (7 Jul 2008)

..I have managed to get gps bable to open and have set it just as in your screen shot. I got a success message saying I had converted gpx to gpx. I then opened this gpx file in mapsource expecting it to me a route, but it wasnt, it was still a track.....erm...I know it's something obvious....erm....??

Now you have got me around this memory issue hopefully I am much happier with the unit...I can see that it can do what I was told it can do. I even had some success finding campsites near Meersburg just for fun my hitting find and pulling up the custom POI's I uploaded from the site Brock suggested...pretty neat really.

*Ok...so what have I learnt so far?*

A LOT!

This is basically the process I am following now for pre planning routes which may or may not be right(??) but seems to work for me:

1) I use www.bikeroutetaoster.com to plan out the rides. The line I draw on the map is called a 'TRACK'. I don't bother adding any waypoints or anything at this point.

2)I go to the summary page on BRT and save the TRACK of my ride. I then Hit the GPX icon and it saves this TRACK as a GPX file to my c drive where I have set up a folder specifically for my BRT .gpx files

3)I have installed Mapsource trip & waypoint manager on my PC (it came with the GPSmap 60Csx unit). I open this up and open the .gpx file I just saved. I see the TRACK line on the mapsource base map now, it looks like a row of black dots.

4) i then select the waypoint tool and place a waypoint (I use a green flag icon) at the start of the TRACK. I then place a red flag Way point marker at the end of the TRACK line. If it is a longer route I may place intermediate waypoint markers (at say each town i pass through for example).

5) I then select the routing tool and join up the Waypoint markers I just placed with a straight ROUTE line which is a delightful shade of vomit pink! 

(I still need to figure out how to use GPSbabel to convert the TRACK into a ROUTE in one click, which is clearly a quicker and better option)

6) I then double click on the track window on the left of my screen to bring up the track properties box. here i can change the name of the TRACK. I am addeing a numeric reference to my TRACK names (i.e 1 Pub, 2, Home, 3 hospital, 4, Police station etc..)

7) Now this is the IMPORTANT part. Whilst in the track properties page I select 'filter' and ensure that it limits the Way points to a max of 250 (in my case) as the GPSmap 60CSx has a max of 1000 waypoint memory. Dont forget to select ok and have it run and reduce the waypoints.

8) I double click on the route icon on the left of my screen and change the name of the ROUTE (I use the same stoopid names as those I just gave to my tracks)

9) I then save this ROUTE as a .GPX file to a specific folder on my C drive called Mapsource ROUTES

10) with my GPS unit connected to the USB port of my PC (and recognised) I tell mapsource to send the .gpx ROUTE file to my GPS. This takes less than 2 seconds.I then re vist point 1) and plan and second ride and a third etc etc...an dfollow th eprocess back to this point. I then look in my ROUTES and my TRACKS icons in the GPS and see the stoopid names I gave my ROUTE and TRACK files in numeric order (because I will ride one a day in sequence hopefully).
I pull up ROUTE 1 PUB when I am in the Rose n' Crown and hit 'map'. I see a little black triangle (representing me on my bike) and off i go along the ROUTE I just programmed.


...well that is how I think it's working right now...I am sure there are other (better?) ways and I may have got something confused or wrong in this little summary still(??) as I have only just learn't it myself...with a LOT of help from my friends


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## Bigtallfatbloke (8 Jul 2008)

Am I right in saying that although my route line does not need to be exactly the same as my track line, that when I navigate along a ride the unit will take me along the route line or is it the track line?

I have a route in the gPS...Basel to Besancon inFrance (it's a long ride of some 140km ish) I see a black track line accuatly reflecting the ride I planned in BRT, and I also to the pink route line which is basically a straight line between two waypoints (Basel and Besancon or the start and end of this ride)...this line does not stick close to the track line. I would want to follow the black line in this case on the ground as the pink line is to high level.

I am still failing to get any joy with that gpsbabel track > Route converter (get a success message but when I then load the gpx file into mapsource it is dispalyed as a track still and I see no routes listed in the route box)...so my route lines are not 'clinging' to my track lines...does this matter?...when I start to ride I dont want this thing taking me off down the high level pink route line...I'll need it to follow theblack track line.


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## CopperBrompton (8 Jul 2008)

That seems an incredibly complicated way to do a very simple job. If I were you, I would reject the kit you have bought as of Unsatisfactory Quality, then buy either the same thing or (better) the eTrex Vista HCx but with City Navigator on DVD.

That way, you simply do all the routing in Mapsource and just transfer it to your device. No multiple software packages, no conversions, no hassles.

Ben


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## dodgy (8 Jul 2008)

If you bought it mail order you can send it back with no reason under distance selling rules (not sure on time limits though). I honestly think a Garmin Edge would be less hassle.

Dave.


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## Bigtallfatbloke (8 Jul 2008)

...i think there will always be alternatives, some may be better, some may not...but I leave on Saturday so I have to go with what i have, and what I have is a top class hand held gps, I just have to figure out how to drive it properly. Once i have done so I will have a class set up. i can always get the DVD some other time maybe...but I have a feeling that I wont need it as soon as I can figure out why I cant convert a track to a route in gpxbabel. I am getting to grips with the actual gps unit well now...it's jus tthe planning of rides on th epc that is a bit ropy still...but I've only had it 4 days now....so although i've hit a huge learning curve, at least i have hit it hard and am still getting up the hill so speak.

I am sure that when i return from this trip I will be an expert in this thing....I may even fly th eplane home myself with it!


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## MockCyclist (8 Jul 2008)

Currently this is over-complicated but there are some redundant steps and still a bit of misunderstanding.

I think we already established that an eTrex would do the same thing in a different body, but an Edge won't, as it doesn't have sufficient waypoint capacity for touring.

The DVD mapping, without a doubt would have been a better option. 

BTFB:

Steps 1,2 and 3 are fine.

At step 3 - we have a track which piedwagtail91 says just go ahead and use for your navigation. I'd like to say so as well but according to the stuff I've read you're going to run out of capacity at 1000 km. So i feel compelled to say, you've got to get that track converted to a Route and it's still not there yet.

gpsbabel: You're sure you clicked the "Filter" button, ticked Transform > Tracks to Routes ? And after a successful conversion, you opened the converted file, not the original one by mistake ? 

Steps 4,5 and 6. Are you adding waypoint markers in lieu of converting to Route? Because you don't need them at all.

Step 7: The path you draw in b r toaster must not exceed 250 points, but you can get a long long way if you're clicking along your route and joining up straight lines of maybe 1km each on average or so. So when you go to the summary page of b r toaster, see how many track points you have, as long as it's less than 250 to start with then don't do the Filter in MapSource. 

gps navigation: You don't want the Track to be uploaded to the gps, just the Route. You're navigating by the Route. Get rid of the Tracks in your gps.

Defining your path in bike route toaster: This is the key to getting satisfactory navigation. I try to imagine myself cycling along that road, which I've never seen before, and ask myself, where would I need to be reminded that I'm in the right place? I find in practice that my gps Off Course field varies between 0m and 30m, that's a 60m wide path which hopefully the actual road falls within ... if it exceeds 30m and the black arrow (me) has clearly left the pink line I start to think I've missed something. So you won't be following the pink line precisely at all times but it should always be visible on your screen. 

You have got Auto-Routing turned off in b r toaster ?


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## dodgy (8 Jul 2008)

MockCyclist said:


> Currently this is over-complicated but there are some redundant steps and still a bit of misunderstanding.
> 
> I think we already established that an eTrex would do the same thing in a different body, but an Edge won't, as it doesn't have sufficient waypoint capacity for touring.



Not quite right actually, the latest Edge's have Micro SD storage, I have a 2GB one in mine and it is nowhere near exhausting the space available - on checking I've used up 232MB which comprises 230MB of maps (bits of my favourite parts of the country in both City Navigator Topo GB and some open source maps). My routes take up 1,104KB which comprises of about 1000 miles of routes with turn by turn instructions.

I only posted this to help the next person who reads this thread, perhaps after searching on Google. The Edge is still the best tool for this if you can get it charged every night or have a power-monkey or similar instead.

Dave.


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## dodgy (8 Jul 2008)

Just in case of confusion, that really is 1,104KB (kilo bytes).

Dave.


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## Bigtallfatbloke (8 Jul 2008)

Ok..thanks again...just a few more tweaks and I'll have it for good I feel.

So is this ride in BRT looking good? The auto thing is off and I am clicking reasonably close to the road although it does go off th eroad a touch in places.









One thing i dont understand...if I use the auto feature in BRT there are more track points than I need...but i cam reduce those to 250 or less afterwards and be left with a track line that is closer to the roads...erm ..isnt that better? I am assuming that the Track to route feature in gpsbabel would then give me a route line exactly on the roads and under 250...????

anyway..then I took the gpx file from BRT and opened it in gpsbabel and converted it (on this one i didnt reduce the point sbecause its already under 250)...this is the success message i got:





Now when I opein it up in mapsource I still only see a track and no route. So am I uploading the right file you ask...well...I think so....I only see one file with this name...so my question is, does gpsbabel alter and save the origional gpx file, or does it create a copy? If it creates a copy then I reckon i'm uploading the origional in error...but I don tknow where the route gpx file has been saved...hmm...I'll keep at it.


so I went into mapsource and overlaid the route exactly over the track line by clicking the routing tool on each point like this:





Looking at the route in my GPS now I see the track line and the route line exactly matching....however they are not on th eroad that i will ride along...they are off....which is where I am thinking it might be better for me to use the auto road in BRT initially and remove the points later??

I think I need the route to follow the roads much closer if not exactly....

...I think th epenny is dropping about points...the auto road creates so many track points, and switching it off reduces th epoints to th esame numbe rof clicks I make manually right?

I can see how doing it without auro raod will allow me to get more routes stored for a LONG tour like this...but I am thinking I do want the purple route line in Highway mode to follow the road pretty dam close ...cant i get the bes tof both worlds here by using the auto road in BRT then reducing points?...probably not I guess or I am sure you would have said already.

So maybe I should keep the auto road off still and just click the track points closer together and keep them on the road at all times?


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## MockCyclist (8 Jul 2008)

That route looks good to me.

Using Auto-Routing and then filtering ... yes ! You could do that and it might work better. You could always check the result by re-importing your filtered gpx file and see if it's still made a reasonable job of following your path.

gpsbabel- not sure what's going on there but the Output file name looks greyed out. You should put your target filename in there, then open that file in MapSource when it's converted.

quote:
"the auto road creates so many track points, and switching it off reduces the points to the same number of clicks I make manually right?"

Yes

I reckon if you can get the conversion sorted out you're just about there.

Auto-routing and filtering to reduce the points, of course the original file will follow the road precisely, but once you've filtered it it's going to lose that accuracy a bit. Try it and see if works for you. I haven't used Auto Routing but that's partly because I will usually include some off-road paths that aren't in Google maps.

I haven't used the Highway page, so I don't know how useful it is.

PS looking at that gpsbabel screenshot it looks as though the output is going to the window. There must be an option for that, but you need it to go to a file


PPS Your route line will sometimes leave the road, but you've got to ask yourself if it matters. When I started out I put far too many points in. You *may* find the map view more useful than the highway view.


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## Bigtallfatbloke (9 Jul 2008)

Thanks.
Ok...I think I have managed some progress...

I used auto road in BRT and saved the GPX file.
I then opened the gPX file in gpsbabel and converted the track to a route and filtered the points down to below 250.
Then I copied and pasted the file location from the input file box into the output file box and hit 'lets go'.
What it then did was overwrite the origional gpx track file with a gpx route file...which I feel is ok as I should only ever need route files in the gPS right?
I then took this new route gpx file into mapsource where it came up as a route file (pink line etc). Here I changed the name in the route and track windows adding the numeric prefix as you suggested so they appear in the correct order on the GPS route list.
I now have a route in the GPS which isnt exactly overlaying the roads I will ride on, but is close enough to the roads so that I should be able to navigate by keeping my little balck arrow (me) on the road as close to the Purple route line as I can....*that is how it works right*?

I ploted a ride between Meersburg and Basel which is a pretty long (2 day ride). Fistly I limited th epoints to 250 and took it into th eGPS...I got a message in a red box on the gPS saying that only routes with 50 points can use the follow road function....confused I went back and filterd the points back down to 50 on the same route file and took that into the gPS. This 50 point route does not 'cling' as close to the roads as the 250 point one does...so i would need to be more careful when riding to keep an eye on the e purple line.

*So my question here is...what exactly does the 'follow road' function do for me when I am riding this route compared to riding it without 'follow road' activated? *I am wondering if this has something to do with if I can/cannot not use the Highway feature on a route with more than 50 points? Because if that is it, I am thinking it might be better for me to plot a series of 5 smaller 50 point routes to cover th esame distance so that I can use th ehighway option and still remain within the 250 points for this stretch of my tour. Make sense??

One thing I have just discovered is the satellite and hybrid views in BRT when plotting a ride they are useful for zooming right down to see if it's worth a small detour off the main route etc.

another question if I may:

I want to plot a waypoint (it's a campsite) in by giving the gPS co ordinates I have. I tried to do this following the steps in the manual which are clear. However I notice that the 'format' of the co ordinates of the campsite do not seem to match the format of the co ordinates my GPS is using. The coordinates for the campsite have degrees and Long and lat etc...but my gPS just seems to have a list of numbers...and does not recognise the campsite coordinates when i type them in....any thoughts On how I can get around this? I have a good book of German campsites with GPS coordinates.. i would like to put the relevant ones into the GPS by using this coordinates printed in this book.


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## MockCyclist (9 Jul 2008)

You've got your Track converted to a Route - your method is fine.

Follow Road - no! Won't work. It'll go and re-calculate your route and will ignore yours. Maybe that's a good reason not to use the Highway page.

Positioning waypoints: In MapSource, go to Preferences, Position. Change the Grid to match the method your campsite is quoted. It will be one of the 3 Lat/Lon options.

Then I pick the Waypoint tool and dump a waypoint anywhere on the map, it doesn't matter if it lands on Timbuctoo. This brings up Waypoint properties. Change the position co-ordinates to match your campsite and the waypoint will then move to the right spot. Sometimes you need to move the N & E letters, MapSource likes to see it like this: N52.11640 E4.60582

There's a gps option to use whatever position format you want, but I've never done it on the gps. I just Transfer my waypoints from MapSource.


Your path positioning: Here's a shot of a path I took which is typical of my course selection and is probably like yours on your screenshot. I have my Map view customised to show:
Distance to Next (point)
Distance to Destination (ie this Route)
Off Course (25m in this case)
Pointer which tells me which way to go to stay on track. It's not North, I have my map view always North up, so i'm going due West and the pointer is saying go ever so slightly to the left. That's because the pink route line is to the left of the actual road where I am.

But how can I possibly go wrong? It's obvious that I'm on track. The only way it could be "wrong", is if I had routed to a cycle path at the side of the road and I'd missed it and was cycling on the road instead. Yeah, occasionally that happened but I didn't get lost.

So don't get too hung up about following your road so precisely. 








Here's the actual route before I uploaded it:






I drew the route in Mapsource and uploaded the gpx file to Bikely so you can see how it's represented in Google maps.

I wonder if someone will make this thread sticky ... or turn it into a tutorial for Garmin ... or something


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## Bigtallfatbloke (9 Jul 2008)

Yes that is how mine looks on my GPS screen when I ride a route.
I think the penny has now dropped!
I wont use th efollow road option then...and that means I should use the 250 limited version of a route and not a 50 point version as I wont be using follow road option anyway and I would rathe rhave the route line accuracy instead.

I will try to get those campsites into th eway point as described thanks. However I am going to have to learn how to do it on th egPS unit itself because I will be doing much of the 'adding ' campsites in my tent in the evening on tour.

I have now set my data fields the same as yours in the pic of you gps screen. I like the idea of the pointer...I never knew what that did before. I may change the dist to next for speed or something as the plotted waypoints dont mean much to me really except if one of them was a user waypoint like say a campsite.

...wow..are we done?? Most excellent!!

I can't thank you enough (and the others who chimed in)..I would not have been able to do this without your kind help and patience...many thanks indeed.



> I wonder if someone will make this thread sticky ... or turn it into a tutorial for Garmin ... or something



...Ha!..I think Garmin support might benefit immensely


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## andrew_s (10 Jul 2008)

You were asking about not being able to "find" campsites near the beginning of the thread.

As you've found, Garmin's idea of accommodation is hotels and such. However they have made it possible to add your own points of interest (POIs), which you can use to make campsites findable.
1) you need to download POILoader from Garmin
2) You need to find on the interweb a file of campsite locations that some helpful chap has made available. I'd suggest the "euro12000" set from http://archiescampings.eu/eng2/ for starters.
This has the same data in various formats for different GPS and Satnav units. You want "Garmin CSV".
I've also come across listings for the Camping & Caravanning Club, though these include, but don't distinguish, all the small members only sites, so are of limited use if you aren't a member.
3. When you've used the POILoader, you get a new Find category for "Custom POIs" that contains your campsites.

On the card, if you look at it in a card reader, there is a folder "Garmin" that contains a large file "gmapsupp.img". This is your mapping data. The POILoader created a new folder "Garmin/Poi", in which there was a file "poi.gpi".

For further interest, the track logs that are written to card when you set that active are written to top level on the card (G: or whatever). You may find that logging tracks to card is OK, and that it's only an attempt to send mapping data to the card that will damage a preloaded card. If this is so, it's only a question of how much free space is left on the card. (The poi.gpi file was about 75 kB, I think)

Caution: I've got the DVD maps, so I don't have a problem with zapping my mapping data. However, on an SD card with maps that I'd previously written to card, everything carried on working normally afterwards.

PS. If you've a set of GPS coordinates for campsites you want, you can look at the layout of the euro12000.csv file, and type your own version for your own campsites using notepad or excel or whatever.


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## Keith Oates (10 Jul 2008)

I have not contributed to this thread because I don't have a GPS and know very little about them, but I must say I'm impressed with the way everything has been handled and clarified. This is a good example of how threads can help all the forum members!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Bigtallfatbloke (10 Jul 2008)

I just got in from riding my loop and can report that generally the GPS did it's job of guiding me along the exact route I had programmed it to take me. I say generally because there were a few things that would have confused me had I not been familier with the ride already:

1)On two occssions the pink route lone cleary indicated a left turn needed to be made, however the written directions were telling me to turn right at the same junction

2)The highway function does not work with pre programmed routes, but it did a good job of finding a point on th emap I selected, had it calculate a route and then guided me to it.

3)One thing I found annoying was the constant alerts that I was at a waypoint...these things are marked with a weird reference like WRP 125c or something like that...means nought to me and I dont need to see them because the pink line is all I need to stay on course and these things just clutter the view, even with the de clutter function on.. 
4) Because of point3) it Beeps a lot more than I need it to.

5) I turned the unit off for about 10km and then turned it back on...it instantly located me and I could carry on along the route....not sure what it would have done had I deviated from the route whilst it was turned off though... I should have tested that as well I suppose.
6)on the trip computer page the unit seems to have only recorded 36.6km on the odometer for a ride I know to be longer...I assume this reflects the section where I turned the unit off??..the thing is still recording 'stopped' time even now, I suppose i ned to remember to turn it off when I finish th edays ride...it's a little confusing as it doesnt seem to work like a normal bike computer...well not one I have used anyway.
7) the bike mount is solid, but this thing really takes a rattling on a bumpy road...so I tie it onto the bars with the hand loop jobby thingamyjigwotsname jus tin case.
8)I know this thing claims to be waterproof, but in the deluge I just went through I decided not to risk it and i put a polybag over it....like cling wrap...at which point I could no longer see the screen at all...so i hope it is as waterproof as they claim .
9) At first I was seeing a black track line and the route line...confusing...so i deleted the tracks and things got simpler...one line=go this way10) on this 40k+ ride the battery indicater dropped one mark running on alkaline batterys.
10) the compass worked well while riding even though th eunit was not horizontal on my handlebars...I suppose that is the benefit of an electronic compass....another good thing was that whilst riding with the compass the map cut back in automatically to show me that I was approaching a turn I needed to make..useful 'cos I was day dreaming and would have missed it.

one thing that was strange was that as I returned home the route finished to early...this matched the pont when I planned the ride where the track line was going bck over itself (I ride down one street on the way out and back along it in the other direction on the way back)...so it seems that over laying track lines in BRT confuses the unit into thinking you have arrived at your destination.

BUT I am not blaming the unit here. I am sure all of this is novice pilot error and can be sorted out by changeing the way I have the unit set up, and by what I do in th eride programming stages. I jus tned to know what changes to make though


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## MockCyclist (10 Jul 2008)

Some good tips from andrew_s. You beat me to it about the tracklog recording, I was going to remind BTFB to turn it back on, but perhaps check with Grmin support first that it's ok. It would be a great shame not to record the entire tour for review later. It doesn't affect the capacity for routes etc.


A few last minute tips for BTFB to avoid gps hell:

If you're forced to leave your route line, zoom the display out and hopefully it will become visible again.

Because you haven't put any user waypoints in, on my suggestion in the interests of getting you up and running, there's a small issue that you don't have anything to "Find" your way back to if you go off route. So it could be useful to "Mark" when you leave the route then you can always use Follow Road to get you back to that Mark.

If you use the Find function, and select a campsite, say, and you pick Shortest Route, you've gotta have quite a bit of faith because you can end up being taken left right and all over the place through some really dodgy areas to get you there - but get you there it will. Been there done that.

Don't forget the Pointer is only accurate when you're moving, once you stop, even swinging the bike around onto the verge will cause the pointer to swing around and lose its way.

Your latest post:

I think you can turn the beep off, try Setup > Tones > Message Beep.

Oh, forgot to mention about out and back routes. I've had some infuriating times when it kept telling me to go back home when I've only just set off, to be honest I don't know what the solution is. It seems to pick up the return leg and lock onto that instead of picking up the out leg. If you find the answer let me know.

Thank you for you kind personal message. Good luck with the tour.


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## andrew_s (11 Jul 2008)

Comment
7) Always use the lanyard (wrist loop) to secure the thing to the bars. I have had a mount snap on me (Belgian cobbled roads), and it did its job
(it was the cradle that clips onto the back of the 60CSx that broke).
8) Mine's had a really good soaking on several occasions (Wednesday, last July's floods etc) and it's never shown any sign of letting the water in.
10) Battery life: I've got 3 days/18h from freshly charged 2500mAh rechargeables, and 2.5 days/15h from 2100mAh Hybrio-type rechargeables the last week. You'll have to get used to how the indicator marks reflect remaining life for each battery type. The 2500s gave 4 bars for about 14h, then 3-2-1 in relatively short order. The 2100s seemed to struggle to make 4 bars even when fresh in, but had a much more even drop afterwards, so 1h on 4 bars, 6h on 3, 4h on 2, and 4h on 1 bar.

Out & back routes: I have also had it doing weirdnesses on occasion. The only conclusion I've come to is that it doesn't do to put the start point in as a route point. (Note that I use routes & waypoints with follow road navigation, rather than tracks).


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## Treadly (24 Jul 2008)

*Tracback*

Bring up a track from the Tracks menu, then use TracBack to follow a track. Make sure that Guidance Text is switched on. There will now be instructions as to where to go and where turns are.
That's how my GPS60CSx works. Using tracks is much more efficient than routes. Routes are clunky. Also some mapping software is better than others, there's a lot of free ones around. The Garmin software is amongst the worst in my opinion.


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## Bigtallfatbloke (3 Aug 2008)

Ok...moving on...now I am back i have a few ridden tracks in the GPS and it would be cool to be able to upload them and see them in bikeroutetoaster etc. I managed to upload the tracks into mapsource (although it would only take the tracks and not the waypoints and maps etc)

But when i try to import the gpx file into BRT it fails. Google earth is a non starter for me because I jus thave th ebasic version which does not support GPS uploads.

Looking at the tracks I can see the sections where I left the GPS on and th esections I had it off to save battery life. but it's still worth trying I think.

So ...what am I doing wrong here?


This is what i see in mapsource having imported a track of the latter part of my recent tour:


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## bigjim (3 Aug 2008)

So he has bought the Garmin and it now possesses him? Is that correct? fascinating thread. can you imagine the weight of batteries to cover a 2 week journey? But surely if the thing ever works you miss out on stopping people to ask the way and those conversations with locals, being offered hospitality etc. I think it would make a touring holiday a lonelier experience as it cuts you off from human contact although I admit, constantly stopping to read maps is frustrating. Plus it is something else that I would not like to get nicked. Nobody nicks a £2 map.

Jim


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## Bigtallfatbloke (3 Aug 2008)

actually the reverse is true. I spoke to more people about durections than ever on this last tour, especially in Scaffhausen where I found myself fluent in German french and Swiss Deutche extremely quickly!

I really dont think it would make a solo tour any the more lonly, you can still ask directions etc...my line in Germany & Switzerland was...

Hallo,
Entschuldigen zie... es tut mir lieht aber ich bin ein bissen verlorhen hier...ich komme aus england und mein bloede GPS ist kaput...wissen zie wo das Radweg nach Basel ist?

that usually got a laugh and some proper directions. In fact on two occassions th ecyclists I asked deviated from their own route to get me back on mine.


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## Bigtallfatbloke (6 Aug 2008)

Here is a site with some cool POI files for europe as well as all over the globe. It has some camp site poi files which seem very useful. I installed the french, german, english and dutch camp site listings and ...well they seem to work, and they cost nought and weigh nought !

http://www.poiplaza.com/index.php?p=co


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## Bigtallfatbloke (9 Aug 2008)

My request of Garmin:



> Problem Description: How can I upload a series of POI files so that I see seperate POI folders in the menu when I push FIND?
> Additional Details: Currently every POI folder I upload overwrites the installed custom POI folder. I need to install several custom POI folders so that in the menu I see several custom poi folders and not just one. So for example I want my campsite poi then another custom poi folder saying bike shops for example...or even having them all mixed up would work as long as each new upload did not overwrite the previously installed custom POI folder but added/merged to it. How do i do this?? I am off on a tour very soon so an early reply would be most useful. Many thanks.



...I wonder if they will reply before I get the answer from somebody on this board?


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## yello (9 Aug 2008)

Garmin can take WEEKS to reply, so I feel safe in the suggestion that one of the good folk of CycleChat will be first with an answer.


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## Bigtallfatbloke (10 Aug 2008)

..true...in the meantime does anybody know how to remove the stoopid motorway toilet icons which appear all over the screen, I assume so the 4x4 drivers can take use the gps to take a leak...


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## CopperBrompton (10 Aug 2008)

Bigtallfatbloke said:


> or even having them all mixed up would work as long as each new upload did not overwrite the previously installed custom POI folder but added/merged to it. How do i do this??


Just copy all your POI files into a single folder, then point POI Loader to that folder - job done.

Ben


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## andrew_s (11 Aug 2008)

Bigtallfatbloke said:


> My request of Garmin:
> 
> 
> > Problem Description: How can I upload a series of POI files so that I see seperate POI folders in the menu when I push FIND?
> ...



From info I posted on this thread: Creating your own POI files

1) If you load a POI file campsites.gpx (or .csv), the loader creates a file G:garminpoipoi.gpi on the SD card.
You can just rename this file to campsites.gpi either using USB mass storage mode, or a card reader. You can then load a completely separate category of POIs from a file bikeshop.gpx to create a new poi.gpi file on the card, and rename this to bikeshop.gpi the same way.

2) Find -> Custom POIs gives you a jumbled list of the closest bikeshops and campsites. If you then press the Menu key, you get a context menu with an option "Select Database" on it, containing an entry for each of the .gpi files you have on the SD card. Selecting an option restricts the list of POIs to just those in that category.
Note:
a) You have to choose the category each time you go into Custom POIs - it doesn't get remembered.
 the name on the Select Database list is the name of the original GPX file, not the name of the renamed GPI file.


Keeping a single folder with all your GPX POI files in, and reloading the lot every time would allow the jumbled list of all types of POI, but not selecting a category (AFAIK - I've not tried it).


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## Kirstie (26 Aug 2008)

On my recent LEJOG I had multiple GPS failure but I worked out that this was due to tracklogs downloading bum data rather than the unit itself.

Helpfully, I'd taken 2 GPS units, unfortunately both with the same bum data downloaded onto it. We managed though, as some of the routes were still intact. By far the funniest moment was turning on the spare unit on day 1, after the original failed, to find that it was telling me I was 3000 miles off course, and that I should, in fact be on the border of South Egypt/Libya in the middle of the desert


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## Bigtallfatbloke (28 Aug 2008)

Thankyou Andrew ...I have just managed to do it , in fact I could have done it all along by just hitting menu select data base as when i do that the poi files appear separtly...wouldh have been veryu useful in Germnay anmd france...oh well, I live and learn


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## bonj2 (28 Aug 2008)

all sounds very complicated...have you mastered the device now and are comfortable with its ability to direct you around the place?


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## Bigtallfatbloke (29 Aug 2008)

I hav enot 'mastered' it. However I am a LOT further down the learning curve than I was. On my recent ride across France this thing was invaluable to me, mainly for getting me through towns and finding and homing me into camp sites.
Getting around Lyon was abreeze because of this thing.
HOWEVER...I still do not trust it's ability to calculate it's own routes in such a way as suit my needs on the ground best...just getting it to work out it's own routes often throws up some very odd choices of route. These are not so apparent when you sit at home messing witht he thing but when you are out there on the ground sometimes it's choices leave something to be desired. 
I planned in my own routes before I went using BRT, mapsource and gps babel (as I dont have the Euocity nav DVD just the SD card). I filtered the routes to 50 points max so it could navigate them and limited each route to 100km (ish). This worked.
But to do all that (as a beginner) took me 12 days at the PC...3 more than it took me to ride across france!


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## andrew_s (29 Aug 2008)

How I create routes quickly and easily...

a) Decide where I want to go, and what roads I want to use to get there.
 Use my skill and judgement to place a small number of waypoints along the road, such that the shortest way between each pair of waypoints is where I want to go.
c) Upload to the GPS, having first saved as a GPX file if necessary (it isn't necessary for routes created in Mapsource or Memory Map).
d) Navigate the route in "Follow Road" mode.

I get full directions, despite having only specified a few waypoints.

Example - Gloucester to Worcester, by the best cycling route...
(zoom out as required)
a) 9-point route as created.
 Full 52km route, as navigated by the GPS.
This didn't go the quite right way, as the GPS doesn't know about the cycle track cutting the corner after reaching the Worcester ring road. Google maps doesn't know about it either. I'd just ignore the GPS prompts at this point. It would resume navigating me as soon as I'd passed the last bike-only section.

I generally use waypoints instead of routepoints, as I can adjust the route on the fly if necessary by adding and removing waypoints using the GPS buttons. A route created using routepoints can't be fiddled with away from the PC, AFAIK.

Another advantage of preparing routes this way is that you can do it directly on the GPS, so it becomes possible to set up a route out on tour when you don't have a PC. It takes me about 1min per waypoint plus a couple of minutes.

EDIT:
When navigating in follow road mode, it's best to have the routing options set to "car" or "delivery". If you set it to "bicycle", it will put in quite large detours to avoid short bits of main road, so it's difficult to anticipate what route it will choose when you are placing your few waypoints.
Bicycle works quite well for routes into and out of larger towns. There are generally plenty of smaller roads not too far off the direct main road route that it will avoid.


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## Bigtallfatbloke (9 Sep 2008)

Thanks Andrew, I am going to try that..sounds like it does the job.

By th eway I hav ejust recieved a reply from Garmin..a month late:



> Thank you for contacting Garmin(Europe)Ltd.
> 
> Sorry for the delay in responding. There is no way to have seperate
> folders for POIs as the unit will only look in one location. Every time
> ...


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## Andy in Sig (22 Sep 2008)

Is the mapping for GPS generally restricted to roads? I'm thinking of established cycling routes as if you could buy the electronic mapping of them with the route marked, that would probably be 90% of what most tourists want. All you would need in addition is street mapping of the towns on the route to help when tracking down your hotel. I suppose really that in the case of Germany, that means the Bikeline guides being made available electronically.


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## andrew_s (23 Sep 2008)

My 60CSx expired on Friday, at the lunch stop in Cassel (between Dunkerque and Ieper). It wouldn't turn off, so I pulled the batteries out, after which it wouldn't turn on. At least it was an opportunity to rediscover the fine old art of navigating off a map in the back pocket

On return home, I checked out the cost of sending it off to Garmin for repair ($150 flat rate for out of warranty repairs), and decided to have a go at fixing it myself, since it was probably a switch that had become displaced rather than anything complicated.

In case anyone else needs to take theirs apart, this is what I did... 

To disassemble:
1) remove the 6 screws holding the back on (2 at top end, 4 under battery compartment lid). The port covers can remain in place
2) prise up the back half of the case, inserting small screwdriver between back case and seal, and twisting. 
3) At the top end, the top part of the case and aerial cover is glued down. Break the rear case section free of the glue (quite easy - it's sealant rather than structural).
4) Reach under the rear case and unplug the 4-wire mini-USB port connection. Leave the coax for the external aerial connected - there's sufficient slack.
5) The main circuit board is held in place by a transparent plastic clip that covers most of the top half. At the bottom end, unclip each side with a small screwdriver - insert, twist, and lever up. You have to bow the sides of the main case outwards slightly. With the lower end of the clip unclipped on both sides, lift a little and pull downwards to get the top end out from under the case mouldings, after which it may be removed.
6) The main circuit board may then be removed by prising up the bottom end so it just clears the end of the case, and sliding it downwards so the aerial is pulled out of the tube in the top half of the casing.

As I had thought, there was a small microswitch that had been bent down. I straightened it, and added a small piece of plastic between the back of the switch and the top of the display as a brace, and reassembled. I've just pressed the top rubber cover back down rather than trying to re-glue. It's outside the main waterproof seal, and the existing glue seems to have been tacky enough to just stick back under finger pressure. I expect I'll just have to wait and find out whether I've disturbed the waterproofing too much.


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## bertie_boy (8 Nov 2009)

MockCyclist said:


> I don't know if you have a route or a track. You can only use the Highway page with a route.
> 
> I guess you have a track with less than 250 points. This screenshot shows how I convert my tracks to routes.
> 
> ...


I have been following this thread with great interest. I am at the stage above where I am trying to get my track into GPSbabel and out as a route. I can get this to happen but when I open up the file in Mapsource the pink route is full of little black flags, how do I lose the flags?


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## andym (8 Nov 2009)

bertie_boy said:


> I have been following this thread with great interest. I am at the stage above where I am trying to get my track into GPSbabel and out as a route. I can get this to happen but when I open up the file in Mapsource the pink route is full of little black flags, how do I lose the flags?



The black flags are the trackpoints from the original track. 

You could try opening the two files (ie the before and after) in a text editor and comparing them. It could be that the conversion hasn't happened (so you won't see any routepoints in the GPX file) or the conversion has included the trackpoints as well as the routepoints. Presumably there is an option in GPSBabel that let's you choose whether or not to include the trackpoints in the route file in which case you might want to turn it off.


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## bertie_boy (8 Nov 2009)

andym said:


> The black flags are the trackpoints from the original track.
> 
> You could try opening the two files (ie the before and after) in a text editor and comparing them. It could be that the conversion hasn't happened (so you won't see any routepoints in the GPX file) or the conversion has included the trackpoints as well as the routepoints. Presumably there is an option in GPSBabel that let's you choose whether or not to include the trackpoints in the route file in which case you might want to turn it off.


Thanks for reply. I can confirm it has converted because the track now appears under the route tab in Mapsource. I cant see how within GPSBabel you can lose the black flags. I have downloaded latest version but still cant see how to do it (its gonna be something simple I know)


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## MockCyclist (8 Nov 2009)

Well, possibly it depends upon where the track file originated from.

The post to which you replied talked about a track from bike route toaster.

I've just successfully converted a track downloaded from bike route toaster into Garmin format and there are small black squares at each waypint, but no flags.

Using gpsbabel, I converted from (Input) GPX XML to (Output) Garmin MapSource - gdb. Tick "what?" Tracks only (de-select Waypoints and Routes). Under the "filter" button, transform Tracks > Routes.


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## bertie_boy (9 Nov 2009)

MockCyclist said:


> Well, possibly it depends upon where the track file originated from.
> 
> The post to which you replied talked about a track from bike route toaster.
> 
> ...


Hi
Thanks for reply. I have created a file in Toaster, saved as a GPX. Then followed your instructions for GPSBabel. Still get same problem (see image below)






I dont know if its a setting within mapsource that is causing the problem. Any clues?


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## MockCyclist (9 Nov 2009)

That's a bit of a puzzle if you have the same gpsbabel settings as me. I'm not getting those flags. You de-selected Waypoints and Routes?

In toaster, I picked Download, File, gpx. Your MapSource is a later version than the one I use but I'd be surprised if that makes any difference. 

The flags are a nuisance on the screen - I have seen them - but have you actually tried uploading the route to your gps? Do the flags transfer?

As a last resort you may be able to save your route with flags as .gpx then hack it with a text editor to remove the flag icon. I think you can safely strip out all the <sym> lines. It all gets a bit geeky though.


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## bertie_boy (11 Nov 2009)

Hi
When I upload the flags do dissappear but I get a RPT001 RPT002 label on the GPS. I did a search on this problem and it seems its a bug in the version of Mapsource that I am running. It is a known but that is going to be sorted https://forums.garmin.com/showthread.php?t=1165


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