# Riders revenge



## tincaman (10 Aug 2010)

Coming home today downhill towards a large roundabout in Exeter, got buzzed by a small car, really really close. Caught up with him quite soon because of traffic, so thought I would have a word.
Went to his windows which he wound down:

"I shouldn't imagine you are a cyclist, do you know how close you came to me, it was really scary"

"You should have been on the cycle path"

"Are you saying you did that deliberately?"

"Yes, you should have been on the cycle path"

Anyway it quickly got a little heated as he wasn't going to apologise and didn't want to know why I wasn't on the cycle path.

Then I remembered a previous forum entry about grabbing the keys and throwing them across the road.

I reached in, turned off the engine and just about to pull the keys about when he grabbed my hand, which got wrenched downwards, snapping the key off in the lock.


"That'll slow you down" say I and left.............................


Looked behind after 200yds, nice set of hazards mate.


----------



## Spinney (10 Aug 2010)

(you could have got an injured arm, though...)


----------



## Lizban (10 Aug 2010)

Well done that will improve his opinion of cyclists.


----------



## BSRU (10 Aug 2010)

I bet he's a happy bunny, broken key stuck in the lock is going to cost.

I think that might have been my suggestion, although I would not have the wotsits to do it.


----------



## dodgy (10 Aug 2010)

This bit resonated with me:

"Are you saying you did that deliberately?"

"Yes, you should have been on the cycle path"

I honestly believe a lot of motorists think this is a legitimate thing to do, to "teach us a lesson".

Idiots.


----------



## BSRU (10 Aug 2010)

Lizban said:


> Well done that will improve his opinion of cyclists.



I think his opinion of cyclists is pretty low already considering his dangerous driving was deliberate.


----------



## StuartG (10 Aug 2010)

A complaint of criminal damage by the driver might get some traction with the rozzers. I would take a different route tomorrow ...


----------



## Lozatron (10 Aug 2010)

StuartG said:


> A complaint of criminal damage by the driver might get some traction with the rozzers. I would take a different route tomorrow ...


+1!


----------



## Lizban (10 Aug 2010)

BSRU said:


> I think his opinion of cyclists is pretty low already considering his dangerous driving was deliberate.



So before for no valid reason he drove too close.

Now (in his mind) he has a reason to hate cyclsits even more is he; 

a. Going to behave much better becasue that cheeky cyclist taught me a dammed good leason
b. Be more dangerous

PS To the original poster steer well clear for a while. He will be hopping mad


----------



## MartinC (10 Aug 2010)

StuartG said:


> A complaint of criminal damage by the driver might get some traction with the rozzers. I would take a different route tomorrow ...



As I understand it the driver broke the key by pulling the cyclist's hand. Of course there are no independent witnesses so criminal damage may be hard to prove anyway.


----------



## BSRU (10 Aug 2010)

StuartG said:


> A complaint of criminal damage by the driver might get some traction with the rozzers. I would take a different route tomorrow ...



Your assuming the driver goes to the Police, he might not be too keen to explain the circumstances leading up to the incident, and assuming the Police can be arsed to look for eyewitness's to corroborate the drivers complaint.

I'd go along with taking a different route.


----------



## Fab Foodie (10 Aug 2010)

Well done... you've been a great ambassador for cycling and cyclists...


----------



## taxing (10 Aug 2010)

StuartG said:


> A complaint of criminal damage by the driver might get some traction with the rozzers. I would take a different route tomorrow ...



He's got no proof, I'd be more worried that he'll run you over tomorrow. If not being on a cycle path deserves a close pass, I'd hate to think what a snapped key deserves.


----------



## Tinuts (10 Aug 2010)

dodgy said:


> This bit resonated with me:
> 
> "Are you saying you did that deliberately?"
> 
> ...


Yes, I've definitely had that occur to me.


----------



## Ben M (10 Aug 2010)

tincaman said:


> "Are you saying you did that deliberately?"
> 
> "Yes, you should have been on the cycle path"



He was lucky that you are a nice bloke, some might have punched him in the face or kicked off a wing mirror for that.


----------



## Headgardener (10 Aug 2010)

The question that has not been asked yet is, was there a cyclepath or lane ajacent to the incident?


----------



## BSRU (10 Aug 2010)

Headgardener said:


> The question that has not been asked yet is, was there a cyclepath or lane ajacent to the incident?



Because that question is not relevant, car drivers have no right to insist cyclist's use them, no matter how good or clean or close.


----------



## StuartG (10 Aug 2010)

Assuming the motorist thought (wrongly or rightly) you were in the wrong does not excuse his behaviour. Similarly thinking him in the wrong does not excuse yours.

You admit you attempted theft. He has a right to take reasonable defensive action and the result appears to be criminal damage. What you have written here (and some police are able to read you know) should be enough if they can be bothered to pursue you.

Of course if the station sergeant has experienced bad cyclist behaviour he might just be tempted to do so. I wouldn't blame him. Actions like yours just provokes even more resentment by other motorists which increases the danger to us all.

Thanks.


----------



## hackbike 666 (10 Aug 2010)

Motorist shouldn't have done it,it's paramount to bullying.

Apart from driving without due care...

Scumbags shouldn't use their car as weapons we all know that.


----------



## Tinuts (10 Aug 2010)

hackbike 666 said:


> Motorist shouldn't have done it,it's paramount to bullying.
> 
> Apart from driving without due care...
> 
> Scumbags shouldn't use their car as weapons we all know that.


Yes, and because he was a bullying, self righteous scumbag he certainly got what he deserved.


----------



## MartinC (10 Aug 2010)

StuartG said:


> Assuming the motorist thought (wrongly or rightly) you were in the wrong does not excuse his behaviour. Similarly thinking him in the wrong does not excuse yours.
> 
> You admit you attempted theft. He has a right to take reasonable defensive action and the result appears to be criminal damage. What you have written here (and some police are able to read you know) should be enough if they can be bothered to pursue you.
> 
> ...




Theft in law is permanently depriving someone of something. That's why there's a specific offence of Taking Without Consent for joyriding not larceny - because you can't establish any intention to permanently deprive. So there was no attempt to steal the keys - merely to to stop the driver using the car as a weapon. Similarly Criminal Damage would require some evidence beyond that the damage happened inadvertently during a struggle.

I agree that confrontations don't increase the quality of life for anyone. It's also seems ludicrous to suggest that illegal behaviour like deliberately using a vehicle to intimidate and threaten another road user should go unchallenged. There might be altenative suggestions as to the best way to achieve this but no-one has made any.


----------



## classic33 (10 Aug 2010)

Would the drivers initial reaction to the cyclist, close pass simply because the cyclist was using the road, not count as assault with intent/assault with a deadly weapon?

Reading the opening post the driver knew what he was doing & that his actions were deliberate.

I once took the wing mirror of a range rover being driven on the wrong side. Similar set of circumstances. He knew he what he was doing & why & he sufferred as a result of his actions. The only thing that stopped him coming back at me was the the fact that I was by this time pulling a 35mm out of the rucksack.


----------



## skudupnorth (10 Aug 2010)

Loved to have seen the little toss pots face when the key snapped ! I know they are very expensive working in the motor trade ! What would he have done if he had caused our fellow commuter to be splattered in the road and possibly in the path another car ? I know it has proberly not helped our cause but knobheads like this need to be shown we are not push overs and that close passes on purpose are not acceptable.To be honest the key removal and launching has been one of my thoughts too on many occasions.
I agree with most posters though,new route for a while.

On another note my commutes this week have been brilliant and have not had any cause to remove parts of cars because everyone has been nice !


----------



## ComedyPilot (10 Aug 2010)

In cases like this, I think cars (and vehicles as a whole) should have an external cut-out switch, similar to those fitted on buses.


----------



## gaz (10 Aug 2010)

If someone ticks me off like that. generally i just laugh as it really is amusing what some people say!


----------



## taxing (10 Aug 2010)

Someone shouted "I can see your fadge!" at me today as he passed in the opposite direction in his classy white van. If I could have shoved his key up his arse and snapped it off I would have.


----------



## ComedyPilot (10 Aug 2010)

I spoke on the 'phone with someone from Hull (Kingston Upon) today, she said '595', but it sounded like 'faarv, naarn, faarv'

Are you sure he didn't say, 'I can see your faarge', and you could have said, 'It's not a Faarge, it's a Pashley'


----------



## Sheffield_Tiger (10 Aug 2010)

ComedyPilot said:


> I spoke on the 'phone with someone from Hull (Kingston Upon) today, she said '595', but it sounded like 'faarv, naarn, faarv'
> 
> Are you sure he didn't say, 'I can see your faarge', and you could have said, 'It's not a Faarge, it's a Pashley'



Oi..leave our faarvs and our cerca-cerla and the like alone


----------



## Fab Foodie (10 Aug 2010)

[QUOTE 1155524"]
I disagree, if this would have been a simple mistake that escalated into what the OP did, then yeah the OP was out of order. But driving like that on purpose deserves to be 'dealt' with one way or the other. Maybe now the self-gratification artist of a driver will think twice before pulling a stunt like that despite knowing **** all about the law and riding on the pavement.
[/quote]
You're welcome to disagree, but the self-gratification artist of a driver will not think twice at all, the ignorant never do. All it will do is fuel his (and his mates when he tells them) anti-cycling fervour, hence making the roads more dangerous than before. 
No lessons are learnt and in a small town like Exeter the OP's gonna have to keep his head down a while. Great result. 
What we really don't need are more 'anti-cyclists' on the streets.


----------



## Fab Foodie (10 Aug 2010)

StuartG said:


> Actions like yours just provokes even more resentment by other motorists which increases the danger to us all.
> 
> Thanks.




Thank you for some common.


----------



## al78 (10 Aug 2010)

You're lucky you didn't get your face smashed in.


----------



## taxing (10 Aug 2010)

ComedyPilot said:


> I spoke on the 'phone with someone from Hull (Kingston Upon) today, she said '595', but it sounded like 'faarv, naarn, faarv'
> 
> Are you sure he didn't say, 'I can see your faarge', and you could have said, 'It's not a Faarge, it's a Pashley'



Did she ring you up thinking you were a takeaway? 'I want a chicken korma and faarv naans.'


----------



## Paul_L (10 Aug 2010)

i don't think turning the streets into a battle zone between cars and drivers does anyone any favours.

surely whatever the provocation, conflict should be the last thing on our minds.

whatever happened to retaining the moral high ground?


----------



## steve52 (10 Aug 2010)

full marks tincan man, never bend in submision to wrongdoing threats or suchlike evil triumghs when good men do nothing, to do nothing is cowardice, a popular hobby today it seems


----------



## aleksei (10 Aug 2010)

Does the driver now know that cyclists can ride wherever in the road just because some cyclist broke his car key?

NO, he hasn't learned anything. He only got validation of his attitude towards cyclist, now he has yet another reason to hate cyclists.

Yep! that'll do, exactly what other cyclists need!. Cheers!


----------



## Tinuts (10 Aug 2010)

Paul_L said:


> whatever happened to retaining the moral high ground?


Because that annoys the motons just as much as snapping their keys.........


----------



## MacB (10 Aug 2010)

Paul_L said:


> i don't think turning the streets into a battle zone between cars and drivers does anyone any favours.
> 
> surely whatever the provocation, conflict should be the last thing on our minds.
> 
> whatever happened to retaining the moral high ground?



You have a fair point as do the others highlighting the repercussion potential, but these are all after the fact and not heat of the moment. A really close pass is a scary thing and it's not often you get the chance to 'have a word'. To then be told that it was intentional due to a combination of ignorance and arrogance, would be enough to push many people over the edge. 

I've mentioned on other threads that I'm genuinely concerned by the lack of knowledge drivers have of the rights of other road users. If they don't know then how on earth did they ever pass a driving test? I love cycling orgnaisations for what they try to do but surely a national tv ad campaign, just covering the basics, would be a great investment.

As for using a ton+ of steel to 'chastise' others, that's just criminal in every sense of the word. It wouldn't have been a key I'd have been trying to snap.


----------



## 400bhp (10 Aug 2010)

taxing said:


> He's got no proof, I'd be more worried that he'll run you over tomorrow. If not being on a cycle path deserves a close pass, I'd hate to think what a snapped key deserves.



Perhaps next week when his car works

Guy deserved it.


----------



## HLaB (10 Aug 2010)

tincaman said:


> Coming home today downhill towards a large roundabout in Exeter, got buzzed by a small car, really really close. Caught up with him quite soon because of traffic, so thought I would have a word.
> Went to his windows which he wound down:
> 
> "I shouldn't imagine you are a cyclist, do you know how close you came to me, it was really scary"
> ...



I like to give folk the benefit of the doubt but his answer would of irked me too. Although funny and utterly deserved though I don't think the action you took will have done any good however, and perhaps harm to the next cyclist the muppet encounters.


----------



## dondare (10 Aug 2010)

http://www.yehudamoo...date=2008-04-16

(If you follow this cartoon you'll know that this doesn't end well. )


----------



## Sheffield_Tiger (10 Aug 2010)

HLaB said:


> I like to give folk the benefit of the doubt but his answer would of irked me too. Although funny and utterly deserved though I don't think the action you took will have done any good however, and perhaps harm to the next cyclist the muppet encounters.



To be honest, it's a bit of a no-win.

Back down after the instruction as to where a cyclist should be riding (in the motorist's own world and misunderstanding) and you possibly reinforce that misconception and encourage similar beghaviour with an "I sure showed that nuisance cyclist, I'll do the same to the next one"

Now there is (and people WILL convince themselves that they are right, regardless, especially men when it comes to driving (and I speak as a male driver) to criticise a man's roadcraft is akin to pointing and laughing when he stands at a urinal...don't know why but it kind of is. So the driver now has had some idiot on a bike wobbling around holding everyone up and then smashed their car rather than give way to a taxpaying motorist. No lesson will have been learned as regards driving habits.

Detached from the incident behind a computer it's easy to analyse things rationally but on my way home today I slapped a car that hit me with the wing mirror then moments later left hooked me and spewed forth a torrent of abuse as it sped off.

A little tip though, if it's a saab don't try grabbing the keys, you'll be laid across the driver's lap in avery compromising position trying to reach the keys next to the handbrake!


----------



## Shut Up Legs (11 Aug 2010)

As there were no independent witnesses (unless I misread the OP?), neither party can prove anything. Now, if the OP had been using a helmet-cam, that might have made things more interesting...


----------



## Andrew_P (11 Aug 2010)

I would avoid that route for a while. I also think that this forum temporarily raised my agitation with car drivers to a dangerous level, I have made a conscious effort to avoid confrontation and now relax when I feel the agitation come on with a dodgy driver. 

Cannot explain the forum raising my awareness other than possibly mass hysteria effect


----------



## Jezston (11 Aug 2010)

I don't think you should have reached in to grab his keys, resulting in them being snapped.

I think you should have reached in to grab his neck, resulting in that being snapped. 

That would have been the only way you could have improved his attitude towards cyclists.


----------



## magnatom (11 Aug 2010)

Whilst I can certainly understand your frustration at the driver, I can in no way condone reaching in for keys etc, which in this case resulted in criminal damage. 

I'm quite happy to question people, confront them about their poor behaviour/driving, but taking action like that is going too far.


----------



## John the Monkey (11 Aug 2010)

steve52 said:


> full marks tincan man, never bend in submision to wrongdoing threats or suchlike evil triumghs when good men do nothing, to do nothing is cowardice, a popular hobby today it seems



Hmm.

90Kg of rider & bike vs. 500kg of car.

I'd be wary of escalating things, personally.


----------



## Jezston (11 Aug 2010)

Hopefully while he was stuck in the middle of the road with cars going past honking their horns and hurling abuse at him as they passed he might realise how shitty that is that people do that to cyclists.

Hopefully the repair guys gave him a good piss taking when they turned up and he told them what happened.

If he did go to the police (unlikely), hopefully the police told him off for what he did and that he probably deserved it (not unlikely), and there's no way they could find the cyclist anyway let alone get a conviction out of it.

Hopefully he'll think twice about being a total douchebag.

F*ck it. I think he did the right thing. I'd do it myself.


----------



## DrSquirrel (11 Aug 2010)

I could still go to the Police and lie on his half - he isn't going to go "I almost hit a cyclist and he was unhappy at that... he must be crazy!"



aleksei said:


> Does the driver now know that cyclists can ride wherever in the road just because some cyclist broke his car key?
> 
> NO, he hasn't learned anything. He only got validation of his attitude towards cyclist, now he has yet another reason to hate cyclists.
> 
> Yep! that'll do, exactly what other cyclists need!. Cheers!



Why isn't anyone mentioning the opposite of this argument...

Maybe next time he will consider that a cyclist might have him square in the face?

tbh, cyclist punching a motorist would have been better for this than taking/breaking the keys.


----------



## Sheffield_Tiger (11 Aug 2010)

DrSquirrel said:


> tbh, cyclist punching a motorist would have been better for this than taking/breaking the keys.




Unless the enraged driver then floored it and rammed the cyclist.....


----------



## ManiaMuse (11 Aug 2010)

Lol that reminds of something I saw on one of those police shows.

There was a report that some burglars had broken into someone's garage and were loading stolen items into a van.

The police got there and managed to catch them in the act. However turned out they weren't burglars but were just loading audio equipment into the van for a gig.

After they went back to the police car the policeman then realised that in his haste to catch them in the act he had managed to snap the keyfob from the key which was still stuck in the barrel. Nice way to put an expensive police car out of service.

Anyway in your case I would have just cycled off as soon as you realised he was an ignorant and aggressive driver. Snapping the key could make you liable for criminal damage and there's always the chance you could come across him again if he's local. Plus doesn't do much to improve the image of cyclists, no matter how much a twat he is.

I tend to avoid confrontation although I might stick my fingers up if someone beeps or passes dangerously close. However before doing so I will check to make sure it is unlikely I will be filtering past him at junction shortly afterwoods. Being stationary on a bike is not the safest place to be next to an aggressive driver - I prefer to be rolling at least a little to be able to accelerate away quicker.

The ones who I will catch up and filter past are the ones who overtake pointlessly and subsequently cut me up coming up to traffic or lights. I will make a point of filtering past and then slotting in front of them just to prove how pointless their overtake was.


----------



## Sheffield_Tiger (11 Aug 2010)

[QUOTE 1155560"]
How? You would be by the side of the car talking to the driver, unless you mean after the incident of course. But that is not going to happen becasue the key broke off in the lock. LOL!
[/quote]



I mean after the incident, you are correct in that. However DrSquirrel's punch in the face was presented as an alternative action to a snapped key; in that scenario the car would still be very much mobile


----------



## BSRU (11 Aug 2010)

The problem with a punch in the face is the driver will have marks on his face, the puncher will have marks on his hand and it may make it easier for plod to prove some connection. Also, if the punch goes wrong you could end up with a broken hand and the car driver still has his weapon of choice.


----------



## DrSquirrel (11 Aug 2010)

Sheffield_Tiger said:


> Unless the enraged driver then floored it and rammed the cyclist.....





Sheffield_Tiger said:


> I mean after the incident, you are correct in that. However DrSquirrel's punch in the face was presented as an alternative action to a snapped key; in that scenario the car would still be very much mobile





Okay.

Break/take the keys THEN clobber them one 

Although I didn't mean immediately after the incident, in the future, with other cyclists etc.


----------



## John the Monkey (11 Aug 2010)

Remember this?

https://www.cyclechat.net/

This guy killed someone he *thought* was the cyclist who broke his wing mirror.

Sometimes it's hard to keep your cool, I agree. But you don't hold many good cards against the tin box if you escalate things.


----------



## DrSquirrel (11 Aug 2010)

John the Monkey said:


> Remember this?
> 
> http://www.cyclechat...d-rage-incident
> 
> ...



Mmm...

I guess the best thing is to make sure he cannot drive again... maybe blinding him with acid or something?


(yes, its just as not serious as me suggesting punching someone )


----------



## benb (11 Aug 2010)

Can I point out that it wasn't the intention of the OP to snap the key off, just to hurl them into the nearest bush.

I can quite understand how this escalated - the driver had explicitly said that he had deliberately used his car as a weapon to intimidate the cyclist. It's easy to read this account and say that he shouldn't have tried to take the keys, but it could easily be argued that the OP was defending himself and other road users.

So, I don't really approve of your actions, but I do understand them.


----------



## StuartG (11 Aug 2010)

We are losing the plot here. The problem with the motorist was not ignorance or misjudgement - it was road rage. Doing something in retaliation which cannot be justified even if the grievance was justified.

Dealing with road rage is inherently dangerous in itself. The most likely solutions are from repentance from the offender when threatened with judicial punishment - or failing that - get him off the road. Both ways require police action.

The good news is that road ragers are likely to have 'previous'. A cool report has a chance of the police checking and believing you and having 'words'. In this case nothing more because of lack of independent evidence. Is any other choice likely to have a better outcome (apart from the riders own enjoyment in revenge - road rage in itself!)?.

I think not. I have been around long enough to believe it will merely up the anti. That may cost someone else much more when this idiot next loses it.

But those who think a broken key will being true redemption please go ahead and give us some evidence ...


----------



## Origamist (11 Aug 2010)

I'd have just reported him to the police - it's a lot easier and less stressful. If you're lucky, he might get a knock on the door whilst watching Eastenders.


----------



## BSRU (11 Aug 2010)

Origamist said:


> I'd have just reported him to the police - it's a lot easier and less stressful. If you're lucky, he might get a knock on the door whilst watching Eastenders.



Waste of time, the Police are not interested, unless a collision occurs, especially when it is basically one persons word against another.


----------



## DrSquirrel (11 Aug 2010)

StuartG said:


> We are losing the plot here. The problem with the motorist was not ignorance or misjudgement - it was road rage. Doing something in retaliation which cannot be justified even if the grievance was justified.
> 
> Dealing with road rage is inherently dangerous in itself. The most likely solutions are from repentance from the offender when threatened with judicial punishment - or failing that - get him off the road. Both ways require police action.
> 
> ...




Then again there are people that constantly drive without the usual requirements, bans, billions of points, unpaid fines etc. And having a "few words", even from a judge with points etc doesn't mean it will work.

Not that everyone has "previous" like you mentioned, so maybe it would only work witht he softest of people - then again are these people likely to cause such reckless driving (purposely rather than out of just lack of judgement).



It's like they say about bullies in a lot of cases - only way to teach them a lesson is to punch back.


----------



## StuartG (11 Aug 2010)

DrSquirrel said:


> It's like they say about bullies in a lot of cases - only way to teach them a lesson is to punch back.


Aha - the Dick Cheney School of Diplomacy approach ...


----------



## Jezston (11 Aug 2010)

BSRU said:


> Waste of time, the Police are not interested, unless a collision occurs, especially when it is basically one persons word against another.



Not true.

I had a road rage incident which involved a taxi driver trying to run me off the road in retaliation for being so audacious as to move into the lane I needed to be in for a particular turning. 

Police took a statement from me the following day, then went and had a word with the driver that afternoon. And they would have taken it further had I asked them to.


----------



## Jezston (11 Aug 2010)

StuartG said:


> Aha - the Dick Cheney School of Diplomacy approach ...



I dunno, I got picked on at school for the second and most of the third year by a popular kid who saw me as a soft target. After he threw an apple at my head I snapped and went at him like a proper enraged 13 year old - i.e. rather pathetically. He was too freaked out to fight back, and suddenly I was a hero and his mates weren't his mates any more.


----------



## Origamist (11 Aug 2010)

BSRU said:


> Waste of time, the Police are not interested, unless a collision occurs, especially when it is basically one persons word against another.




It depends on the force and who you deal with - I've had more joy with neighbourhood police teams and traffic cops. You can't rely on the first port of call, usually a desk sergeant. I once escalated a complaint to the Met Commissioner, Sir John Stephens. It all depends how far you're prepared to go and how much time you have. 

If you're expecting him to be frogmarched to the station "yes", you're going to be disappointed, but there will a least be a record of the complaint - assuming the police log it and don't lose it (at the very least)

Roadsafe is very good in this repsect.


----------



## BSRU (11 Aug 2010)

Origamist said:


> It depends on the force and who you deal with - I've had more joy with neighbourhood police teams and traffic cops. You can't rely on the first port of call, usually a desk sergeant. I once escalated a complaint to the Met Commissioner, Sir John Stephens. It all depends how far you're prepared to go and how much time you have.
> 
> If you're expecting him to be frogmarched to the station "yes", you're going to be disappointed, but there will a least be a record of the complaint - assuming the police log it and don't lose it (at the very least)
> 
> Roadsafe is very good in this repsect.



My dealings were with the head of the local traffic unit, although he sympathised he indicated they did not have time for such "minor" traffic offences.

I imagine Police forces have different priorities and more importantly different budgets/resources hence they deal with things differently.

The only crimes I can report on line are burglary and ironically car crime.


----------



## perplexed (11 Aug 2010)

The thing that occurs to me, is regardless of what the driver now thinks of cyclists (and lets face it, his opinion doesn't seem to have been that high to start with), he has learned one valuable lesson. (Assuming he is half bright.)

If abuse of a cyclist occurs, he now knows will probably be caught at the next set of lights, and the outcome could be unpredictable...


----------



## DrSquirrel (11 Aug 2010)

StuartG said:


> Aha - the Dick Cheney School of Diplomacy approach ...



Yea.

Because talking it over, and slaps on the wirst fixes *EVERYTHING*. 


I actually think that view point (whether you are taking it or not) is pure ignorance.



And we're not exactly talking about foreign policy here.


----------



## John the Monkey (11 Aug 2010)

perplexed said:


> If abuse of a cyclist occurs, he now knows will probably be caught at the next set of lights, and the outcome could be unpredictable...



No, an unpredictable outcome is two people of roughly equal weight & height squaring off.

A Person on a Bike vs. a Person in a Car has a predictable outcome.


----------



## DrSquirrel (11 Aug 2010)

John the Monkey said:


> No, an unpredictable outcome is two people of roughly equal weight & height squaring off.
> 
> A Person on a Bike vs. a Person in a Car has a predictable outcome.




No it doesn't.

What is unpredictable is the person in the car doesn't know what the person on the bike will do or attempt - alas, unpredictable.

And having it occur to him(motorist) will(might) consider this more often.


----------



## Andrew_P (11 Aug 2010)

DrSquirrel said:


> No it doesn't.
> 
> What is unpredictable is the person in the car doesn't know what the person on the bike will do or attempt - alas, unpredictable.
> 
> And having it occur to him(motorist) will(might) consider this more often.




It may well teach him to be unbuckled and door opening on the approach of the said cyclist being better prepared.

IMO Even if he knew it was wrong the embarrasment factor alone makes the situation unpredictable, I certainly know one person whose reaction would have been very aggressive being approached by a cyclist at their window telling them how crap they were driving. You really do not know who is sitting inside so unless you are prepared to go the whole nine yards why bother?


----------



## HLaB (11 Aug 2010)

perplexed said:


> The thing that occurs to me, is regardless of what the driver now thinks of cyclists (and lets face it, his opinion doesn't seem to have been that high to start with), he has learned one valuable lesson. (*Assuming he is half bright*.)
> 
> If abuse of a cyclist occurs, he now knows will probably be caught at the next set of lights, and the outcome could be unpredictable...



Thats the thing the muppet didn't seem that bright, which same person would threaten somebody with a 2 ton weight. I doubt he learnt any lesson and has only had their hatred of cyclists confirmed and who knows at the next set of lights he may use his 2 ton weight again against a innocent cyclist in retaliation or mis interpret a slight move by the cyclist as a snatch for his key and over react.


----------



## John the Monkey (11 Aug 2010)

Oh well. 

If you're convinced you stand a chance winding up someone who's already proven that they don't give a shite about your safety, have at it, I suppose.


----------



## perplexed (11 Aug 2010)

I'm not condoning or condeming the OP. I wasn't there, and therefore cannot make a judgement.

All I'm saying is that the driver certainly didn't expect to happen, what did happen. I'm not suggesting at all that cyclists who are aggrieved should take some sort of physical action, on the whole, it's a bad idea.

But equally, as a by-product of the whole event, he is now aware of what could happen. That is just a bald statment of what I would imagine is running through his mind. We already know he doesn't think much of cyclists.


----------



## adscrim (11 Aug 2010)

Hopefully the driver won't think the 3 wrongs would make it even more right!


----------



## fossyant (11 Aug 2010)

Not going to comment other than change your route and clothing. South Devon is no Inner London, and if it's anything like South Manchester, you'll be an easy target to spot at some later point, and given the 'damage' caused, the driver may just wish to teach you another lesson....some weeks later.

There is a poster on here that remonstrated with a car full of 'lads', ended up removing the wing mirror, only to be jumped upon later. Result was a detatched retina and lying on his front face down for 'some time'....

By all means shout back, but don't take it further if clearly they are a loon. Even a simple 'whatch where you are going' can end up with you being sworn at and threttened with violence - been there. Do the smart thing and report them next time.


----------



## marzjennings (11 Aug 2010)

I don't think the OP has anything to worry about legally, if the story is true that the driver did attempt to run the rider off the road and then admitted to it when confronted as a deliberate act, I see no problem in the disarming the driver. If someone threatens you with a knife/bat/stick/banana and escape is impossible your next goal is to get rid of that weapon and disarm your attacker. I think the OP managed to successfully disarm their attacker without any injury to their person, nice job.


----------



## StuartG (11 Aug 2010)

marzjennings said:


> I don't think the OP has anything to worry about legally, if the story is true that the driver did attempt to run the rider off the road and then admitted to it when confronted as a deliberate act, I see no problem in the disarming the driver. If someone threatens you with a knife/bat/stick/banana and escape is impossible your next goal is to get rid of that weapon and disarm your attacker. I think the OP managed to successfully disarm their attacker without any injury to their person, nice job.


What was said by both parties and the original near miss are almost certainly not actionable because of the lack of independent evidence. However the damage that was done was inside the motorists car. It was the motorist who was in defensive mode seeking to disarm the attacker. The evidence points to a rider invading the car in a threatening manner and hereby justifying some reasonable defence.

The paradox here is that if the motorist wished to make an issue of it - he can claim damage and it is the cyclist who is on the backfoot. OK so the police might sensibly tell them they are both idiots. But the danger is, as above, he might want to make an issue of it extra-judicially.

Sure hope the people who think you scared him off are right and we are wrong. just think what you did was unwise. Very understandable in the heat of the moment but not in retrospect. And unwise encouraging others to follow the same path.


----------



## gaz (11 Aug 2010)

Damaging anyone's car whilst they are in it, is damn right foolish and you are asking for trouble.


----------



## BentMikey (11 Aug 2010)

Except that the cyclist didn't damage the moton's car - the moton did all the breaking. Thus no criminal damage.


----------



## hackbike 666 (11 Aug 2010)

Hmmm but if you were in the car you wouldn't just let someone nick your keys would you?


----------



## gaz (11 Aug 2010)

BentMikey said:


> Except that the cyclist didn't damage the moton's car - the moton did all the breaking. Thus no criminal damage.



Whilst that may be true, I would still say it is unwise. The vehicle owner will view it as the cyclist damaging his car.


----------



## al78 (11 Aug 2010)

DrSquirrel said:


> It's like they say about bullies in a lot of cases - only way to teach them a lesson is to punch back.



But on the other hand, it is foolish to get into a fight you have no hope of winning.


----------



## Brains (11 Aug 2010)

18 months ago I had a very similar situation (which can be read about in detail here)
https://www.cyclechat.net/

Basically involved in a hit an run, the offending vehicle was then blocked in by other cars until such time as I got up, cycled 200m to where the car had been blocked in, and approched the driver, who denied anything was wrong and made to drive off again, I reached in to get the keys, the key broke off in the lock, but I had the rest of the bunch.

I then phoned the police, it being the Friday before Xmas despite waiting around for 45 mins after the accident they cound not get a car there to take charge.

Eventually the despatcher said I had to give back the keys, and go to the cop shop and make an official complaint.

End result is nothing was done about the driver at all, police dropped the case (I had witnesses etc)

So whilst I would say I was on firmer ground than you were in removal and breaking the key, even I had to give them back.

I looked into the cost of barrel replacement (as apparently it's almost impossible to remove the remains of the key) as I was interested to know what the cost would be if they ever chased me for 'damage' (they didn't). Replacement of the barrel of a typical car is over 100 quid! as well as the issue of the car being undrivable until work is completed. So you have caused a fair bit of damage.


----------



## Jezston (11 Aug 2010)

£100? Haha excellent.


----------



## Moodyman (12 Aug 2010)

I recall a story (on here) where someone thought he'd be clever and kick the driver's wing mirror for perceived bad driving, the driver and his mates chased him down and kicked him black and blue.

He came onto this forum and told us about it. Perhaps getting cocky with someone in a 2 -tonne car is not as clever as we applaud.


----------



## PBancroft (12 Aug 2010)

I think that there are two ways I would look at this.

The first thought that springs to mind is that the driver did something bad and wrong, and without something being done about it is quite likely to continue to do bad and wrong things on the road up to and potentially including killing someone.

The second thought is... let's swing this around to look at it from another angle. Let us say a cyclist does something a motorist doesn't like (dangerous or not), and the motorist takes them to task for it. The cyclist gives as good as they get and doesn't want to apologise for something they don't see as being wrong. The arguments increase and culminate with the motorist leaning through the window grabbing a bunch of cables on the bike. The cyclist tries to pull away and in the ensuing struggle the cables come loose, leaving the cyclist without gears and/or brakes. One up to the driver as he pootles away.

I think I fall smack bang in the middle of my own dilemma. I don't think breaking someone's keys is the right way to respond to the OP's situation. But then I don't think letting people behave like dicks is appropriate either. I genuinely don't know how to deal with that kind of situation, and I think it is this frustration which causes a lot of road rage.

Solve that, and I think the road to work might be a happier place.


----------



## kevin_cambs_uk (12 Aug 2010)

Spot on mate


----------



## Tyres (12 Aug 2010)

With regard to the deliberate motives of the car driver, this is something I've witnessed more of in recent years during my commute. Some motorists must really think that by putting the 'frighteners' on cyclists simply for being on the road actually works! Many a time I've had car drivers blasting their horn, revving their engine and skimming me as they go past - one recent skimmer as I call them must have skimmed me at way over 70 mph! That shook me!

Heck I've even witnessed 2 cars trying to run each other off the road because neither one of them would give way when the road narrowed from 2 lanes to 1 - that was probably the last time I kicked off at a motorist - yes - I caught up with one of those drivers and gave him what for. But after seeing that I've decided to calm down - it's just not worth it any more. As my wife puts it, "you might be able to handle yourself, but there's always someone bigger than you". Personally, I wouldn't want to be in tincaman's situation right now even if do agree with some of his actions - but not all.


----------



## 661-Pete (13 Aug 2010)

Well the OP hasn't returned to this thread; I wonder how he's feeling about the very divided responses to his actions. Personally, I can't condone what he did, though I appreciate there was provocation, and I wonder what would happen if one day I 'lost it'. I know I have a short fuse, but thus far it's only ever got to 'verbal' (I did take a wing mirror off a car once, but it was purely accidental for my part). Sometimes I have visions about doing something similar to the OP.... I might do it if I suspected the driver was over the limit - the idea being to protect other members of the public.


----------



## tincaman (13 Aug 2010)

Took the cycle path the day after, what a pain, loads of junctions to navigate, bumpy, broken surface outside exeter, only added 5mins to my time though. 

I think the key to my response to his actions was how quickly I caught up with him afterwards. If it had taken me another minute I probably wouldn't have bothered.

I am not normally like this, the beast in me has obviously awakened.......


----------



## hackbike 666 (13 Aug 2010)

tincaman said:


> Took the cycle path the day after, what a pain, loads of junctions to navigate, bumpy, broken surface outside exeter, only added 5mins to my time though.
> 
> I think the key to my response to his actions was how quickly I caught up with him afterwards. If it had taken me another minute I probably wouldn't have bothered.
> 
> *I am not normally like this, the beast in me has obviously awakened.......*



It's called road rage.


----------



## ManiaMuse (13 Aug 2010)

Tyres said:


> Heck I've even witnessed 2 cars trying to run each other off the road because neither one of them would give way when the road narrowed from 2 lanes to 1 - that was probably the last time I kicked off at a motorist - yes - I caught up with one of those drivers and gave him what for.


Lol I've seen that before in slow moving traffic. I know it's good etiquette for vehicles to merge like a zip into one lane but when one driver doesn't do that it's better to drop back and merge behind them instead of sit in the path of oncoming traffic for half a mile.


----------



## DrSquirrel (13 Aug 2010)

Moodyman said:


> I recall a story (on here) where someone thought he'd be clever and kick the driver's wing mirror for perceived bad driving, the driver and his mates chased him down and kicked him black and blue.
> 
> He came onto this forum and told us about it. Perhaps getting cocky with someone in a 2 -tonne car is not as clever as we applaud.



A 2 tonne car is a 2 tonne car (a v.heavy one).

But the person inside can be 40kg or 100kg - so a "2 tonne car" is irrelevant.




Kaipaith said:


> I think I fall smack bang in the middle of my own dilemma. I don't think breaking someone's keys is the right way to respond to the OP's situation.




Yet breaking the keys was not the intention.

So he didn't respond by breaking the keys.


----------



## Ravenbait (13 Aug 2010)

Was that the big roundabout at the south end of Exeter where they've put that stupid cycle path on the pavement on the left? Bridge Road? I've had many a conflict with drivers there, particularly in the year after they put the cyclepath in. It was horrendous.

I dunno. Maybe the guy didn't realise you were going for the keys and thought you were after him. Remember that it has been shown (probably by the Institute for Studies) that drivers view their car as their personal space, so sticking your hand in through the window is roughly equivalent to shoving your hand down someone's shirt (or his trousers). Even if you don't mean to damamge anything while it's in there, it's still going to come as a massive shock and people's reactions are unpredictable in those circumstances. While I understand exactly what got you so mad -- been there myself, frequently -- it's not something I would ever suggest for the simple reason that someone that shocked can easily behave very agressively and you could be seriously hurt.

Sam


----------



## TwickenhamCyclist (13 Aug 2010)

Well done for showing such restraint – I’d have taken the keys, then covered the car in petrol and set fire to it, after locking the little prick in there…lol



Seriously though, since when has disarming someone who has attacked you with an offensive weapon become an offence? Did I miss a meeting or something…?



tincaman stuck up for himself, well done! 



Some posts state that the driver will now hate cyclists even more – so what? – you never know, he might have learnt his lesson and Exeter now has one anti cyclist twat who might think twice before buzzing us – the world’s a better place IMO.


----------



## BSRU (13 Aug 2010)

Is there not some requirement to prevent someone from breaking the law, hence taking the keys could have been the legal thing to do to prevent the driver using his car as a weapon again. Maybe similar to this, with regards to mobiles: In one of bored moments recently I read the amendment which outlawed the use of hand held mobiles in cars, it states that you should prevent anyone attempting to use their mobile while driving. 
No person shall cause or permit any other person to drive a motor vehicle on a road while that other person is using - (a) a hand-held mobile telephone

The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) (Amendment) (No. 4) Regulations 2003


----------



## Riding in Circles (13 Aug 2010)

Ben M said:


> He was lucky that you are a nice bloke, some might have punched him in the face or kicked off a wing mirror for that.



Me probably.


----------



## DaleB (13 Aug 2010)

Haha quality


----------

