# A question on ladies cycling



## ClichéGuevara (29 Jul 2013)

I hope this doesn't sound disrespectful, it's really not meant to be. I'm just watching the cycling show, which tonight is focusing on womens cycling.

I have read strong arguments offered on here that I can't quite grasp fully, that say if you're strong enough to walk up stairs, you've got more than enough leg strength to cycle up any (rideable) hill _eventually._ What stops us getting up is fitness.

I do circuit training, running and gym work and there are plenty of women there that are fitter than me.

Now that being the case, and accepting the huge generalistion, why can't women cycle as fast as men?


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## vickster (29 Jul 2013)

I am assuming it's down to power, strength, muscle size, anatomy...we are however superior in every other way


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## Hill Wimp (29 Jul 2013)

Are they actually ever tested together? I only ever see mens races or womens races.


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## vickster (29 Jul 2013)

There is a campaign for women to be allowed in the TDF next year


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## Hill Wimp (29 Jul 2013)

vickster said:


> There is a campaign for women to be allowed in the TDF next year


 

My understanding is that they won't be racing together but before the men. Is that not right?


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## ianrauk (29 Jul 2013)

Hill Wimp said:


> My understanding is that they won't be racing together but before the men. Is that not right?


 


That's my understanding.


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## vickster (29 Jul 2013)

No idea, a colleague of mine just asked me if I'd signed the petition


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## Hill Wimp (29 Jul 2013)

It would be interesting to see Chris Hoy V Victoria Pendleton or Wiggo against Laura Trott as a one off exhibition show.


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## Hill Wimp (29 Jul 2013)

Respect to those that cyclocross both men and women. Just seen it on the cycle show for the first time.


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## Hill Wimp (29 Jul 2013)

Just seen some female extreme mountain bikers that competed in the US against men.


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## deptfordmarmoset (29 Jul 2013)

Hill Wimp said:


> Respect to those that cyclocross both men and women. Just seen it on the cycle show for the first time.


I did a bit of cyclocross watching this winter (lots of livestreams from the low countries and the UCI championships in the USA) and you can't watch the sport for long without coming across Marianne Vos. She is truly immense - and that's not just in cyclocross!

That Wyman lassie isn't half bad either. Nice to see her on the Cycle Show alongside Jo Rowsell tonight. Oh, let's not forget Hannah Barnes either!

In other news, I see United Healthcare over in the States have just set up a pro women's cycling team for next year. It's progress, along with the UK's Wiggle-Honda.


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## srw (29 Jul 2013)

ClichéGuevara said:


> Now that being the case, and accepting the huge generalistion, why can't women cycle as fast as men?


You're confusing a single data point (you vs specific women) with a statistical generalisation (men vs women). The fastest men are faster than the fastest women, but that's saying something about a tiny handful of people. The fastest women are still considerably faster than almost everyone else in the world.


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## Hill Wimp (29 Jul 2013)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> I did a bit of cyclocross watching this winter (lots of livestreams from the low countries and the UCI championships in the USA) and you can't watch the sport for long without coming across Marianne Vos. She is truly immense - and that's not just in cyclocross!
> 
> That Wyman lassie isn't half bad either. Nice to see her on the Cycle Show alongside Jo Rowsell tonight. Oh, let's not forget Hannah Barnes either!
> 
> In other news, I see United Healthcare over in the States have just set up a pro women's cycling team for next year. It's progress, along with the UK's Wiggle-Honda.


 


I have to say Jo Rowsells and Laura Trotts comments earlier about how cycling has changed in such a short time are spot on. I did some club racing years ago and i was only one of 2 girls. Now there really are a lot. But i agree with the cyclocross girl the prize money is pants for the girls and i don't know why sponsors don't want to fork out. Look at the crowds those girls pulled in York the other day.


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## ClichéGuevara (29 Jul 2013)

srw said:


> You're confusing a single data point (you vs specific women) with a statistical generalisation (men vs women). The fastest men are faster than the fastest women, but that's saying something about a tiny handful of people. The fastest women are still considerably faster than almost everyone else in the world.


 

I can see what you're saying and I don't disagree, but I reckon that in a general group, the males will tend to be faster than the females at cycling. I'd also say that if it was as you say, me vs specific women, I'd be backing the women. 

My question's more why should this be the case if it's fitness rather than strength? I'm not saying the argument about leg strength is wrong, I'm more trying to understand it more clearly.


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## Hill Wimp (29 Jul 2013)

Perhaps we should ask Wiggo and Vicky to do a Cycle Chat special comp for us.


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## Hill Wimp (29 Jul 2013)

Who lives near Wiggo and can knock on his door and who lives near Vicky and can knock on her door ??


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## deptfordmarmoset (29 Jul 2013)

Hill Wimp said:


> I have to say Jo Rowsells and Laura Trotts comments earlier about how cycling has changed in such a short time are spot on. I did some club racing years ago and i was only one of 2 girls. Now there really are a lot. But i agree with the cyclocross girl the prize money is pants for the girls and i don't know why sponsors don't want to fork out. Look at the crowds those girls pulled in York the other day.


Not only that but Jo and Laura have, I believe, been big agents of change in UK women's cycling, broadening out the Victoria Pendleton spearhead. But if Wiggle-Honda are now sponsoring a team here in the UK and UHC are picking things up in the USA, then I reckon it's moving in the right direction. And was it Hannah Barnes talking about how women's cycling was going out on national TV? Sponsors will follow, I'm sure. First, because it'll be relatively cheap, then because it's the new big thing.


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## Hill Wimp (29 Jul 2013)

True i watched Hannah on the TV win that race in York, it was great to see and long may it continue.

Earlier i was watching Lance " im a liar" Armstrong on You Tube and his interview with Oprah. Linked to one of the threads was an interview someone from the International Olympic Commitee who said that due to all the doping they had considered stopping cycling all together as an olympic sport. Im not sure that there has been any suspicion on womens cycling but the more they come to the for they may just help the cleaning of the image of the sport.


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## Rob3rt (29 Jul 2013)

Hill Wimp said:


> It would be interesting to see Chris Hoy V Victoria Pendleton or Wiggo against Laura Trott as a one off exhibition show.


 
Hoy would smash Pendleton and Wiggo would smash Trott!

Just look at the raw speeds and times, male athletes are faster than female athletes, bar the odd exception, usually occurring during ultra endurance events.



ClichéGuevara said:


> I can see what you're saying and I don't disagree, but I reckon that in a general group, the males will tend to be faster than the females at cycling. I'd also say that if it was as you say, me vs specific women, I'd be backing the women.
> 
> *My question's more why should this be the case if it's fitness rather than strength? I'm not saying the argument about leg strength is wrong, I'm more trying to understand it more clearly.*


 
Genetics.


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## deptfordmarmoset (29 Jul 2013)

Hill Wimp said:


> True i watched Hannah on the TV win that race in York, it was great to see and long may it continue.
> 
> Earlier i was watching Lance " im a liar" Armstrong on You Tube and his interview with Oprah. Linked to one of the threads was an interview someone from the International Olympic Commitee who said that due to all the doping they had considered stopping cycling all together as an olympic sport. Im not sure that there has been any suspicion on womens cycling but the more they come to the for they may just help the cleaning of the image of the sport.


To be fair, women's cycling doesn't carry the same burden. The only woman I can think of who's been caught up in doping intrigues that I can think of is Jeannie Longo, those BC/Olympics girls seem beyond any whiff of suspicion. 

(Maybe that's why the men are faster......only joking....)


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## buggi (29 Jul 2013)

Hill Wimp said:


> Just seen some female extreme mountain bikers that competed in the US against men.


i would imagine that mountain biking (presumably downhill) is more about technique than strength and therefore no reason why women couldn't compete alongside the men. however, as a woman, i would imagine that with general road cycling, it's to do with strength/power in the muscle. i don't think any female cyclist will match the best man on power/strength. even the worlds best body building woman would not be able to compete with the worlds best bodybuilding man. so road cycling will probably always be a separate competition for the men and women.
No reason at all why they can't have a female TDF. it doesn't need to be less tough either. that would be the insult, not the fact that they can't compete with the men.


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## vickster (29 Jul 2013)

buggi said:


> even the worlds best body building woman would not be able to compete with the worlds best bodybuilding man.


 
Only on looking equally and utterly vile


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## ClichéGuevara (29 Jul 2013)

buggi said:


> i would imagine that mountain biking (presumably downhill) is more about technique than strength and therefore no reason why women couldn't compete alongside the men. however, as a woman, i would imagine that with general road cycling, it's to do with strength/power in the muscle. i don't think any female cyclist will match the best man on power/strength. even the worlds best body building woman would not be able to compete with the worlds best bodybuilding man. so road cycling will probably always be a separate competition for the men and women.
> No reason at all why they can't have a female TDF. it doesn't need to be less tough either. that would be the insult, not the fact that they can't compete with the men.


 

But that's precisely my point, it's argued on here that leg strength is largely irrelevant to cycling, it's purely down to fitness.


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## vickster (29 Jul 2013)

Seems wrong, who is arguing this? Although how you measure fitness holistically in two different human beings, I don't know


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## ClichéGuevara (29 Jul 2013)

vickster said:


> Seems wrong, who is arguing this? Although how you measure fitness holistically in two different human beings, I don't know


 

I'll have a rummage to see if I can find the thread. I agree it seems wrong, but the people arguing it are convincing. The basic thrust is that to climb stairs, you effectively lift your body weight on one leg which takes more strength than any cyclist uses up any hill, so therefore if you can walk upstairs, the limiting factor when cycling up any hill is fitness. I think one confusing factor is the distinction between strength and power.


Edit....here's A link to one thread on the topic. It's a poor example because it gets too personal, but I think it presents the basis of the argument.

http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/cadence-speed-and-hill-climbing.109691/#post-2010654


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## Rob3rt (29 Jul 2013)

vickster said:


> Seems wrong, who is arguing this? Although how you measure fitness holistically in two different human beings, I don't know


 

I would argue it to some degree! You don't need to be strong to be powerful. Pedalling a bike is a continuous application of hugely sub maximal efforts and is ultimately limited by your aerobic capacity.


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## vickster (29 Jul 2013)

So men have bigger lungs than women? I understand not a jot what you posted


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## Rob3rt (29 Jul 2013)

vickster said:


> So men have bigger lungs than women? I understand not a jot what you posted


 

They probably do yes, being generally larger, however I was not commenting in relation to the male vs female debate in that particular post, I was commenting in relation to leg strength not being particularly limiting in terms of cycling performance (unless you are a track sprinter!).


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## Alun (29 Jul 2013)

ClichéGuevara said:


> But that's precisely my point, it's argued on here that leg strength is largely irrelevant to cycling, it's purely down to fitness.


If that were true, you'd wonder why these 2 bother with the leg exercises. BTW the skinny one is Griepel
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ol...re-monster-thighs-and-picture-goes-viral.html


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## Rob3rt (29 Jul 2013)

Alun said:


> If that were true, you'd wonder why these 2 bother with the leg exercises. BTW the skinny one is Griepel
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ol...re-monster-thighs-and-picture-goes-viral.html


 
Sprinters.

It is only natural that you will develop some leg strength and possibly some muscle mass through cycling, however unless you are a sprinter, where you will be applying (near) maximal efforts for a very short duration and need to have a "jump" i.e. very fast sudden acceleration, generated from applying a high instantanious torque to the cranks, it is unlikely that leg strength will be a primary limiter.


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## ColinJ (29 Jul 2013)

Alun said:


> If that were true, you'd wonder why these 2 bother with the leg exercises. BTW the skinny one is Griepel
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ol...re-monster-thighs-and-picture-goes-viral.html


They are both sprinters ...

(Forstermann is incorrectly described as a mountain biker rather than a track sprinter, presumably because of the sneaky trick used to get an extra rider into the German Olympic squad by registering him for the MTB team, but letting him race on the track!)


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## Ningishzidda (30 Jul 2013)

Testosterone.


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## Ningishzidda (30 Jul 2013)

Climbing up one flight of stairs should not be a problem for any individual, even those who live in a bungalow.
When it becomes a chore is when the duration of the exercise extends to longer than the individual is accustomed to.
Take 14 flights of a tower block. The person who can leap up to the first floor in their house will find it more difficult to leap up the stairway of all fourteen floors. Although the instantaneous intensity is the same, muscle fibres tire. The small group of fibres that do the first bit of work tire and others which have less capillarisation and are less trained are asked to continue. They have less oxygen and fuel supply, are not trained and tire quicker. This goes on until most of the person’s muscle fibres have been recruited, tired and stopped working. Then the person collapses in a heap.

A purpose training regime will enable the person to leap up all 14 flights, or, their muscles develop due to repetitive attempts.

Why are men generally stronger, more durable and faster than ladies? The hormone which encourages muscular growth is about 15 – 20 times more abundant in males than females.


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## Ningishzidda (30 Jul 2013)

vickster said:


> Seems wrong, who is arguing this? Although how you measure fitness holistically in two different human beings, I don't know


 VO2 uptake.

Watts for O2 uptake.


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## buggi (31 Jul 2013)

ClichéGuevara said:


> But that's precisely my point, it's argued on here that leg strength is largely irrelevant to cycling, it's purely down to fitness.


well, as a woman, i would say i would love a bit more strength in my legs to get up the hills, my lungs are fine. i think it's all things combined, heart, lung and muscle capacity. i know when i'm cycling with my male friends that it's the strength in my legs that lets me down. take our Sunday morning rides, i always drop back on two of the hills and then i'm playing catch up until the next coffee stop. If it was flat all the way, no problem. Therefore, i reckon is down to pure muscle strength that separates the ladies from the men. i'm sure there are women that have more strength in their legs than me and can compete with above average men at top club riding level, but pit the best olympic standard woman against the best olympic standard man and i reckon she'd have the same problem. the man would just have the edge.

i don't think i'm being sexist or letting my side down when i say that. From what i remember, men have 57% muscle and women have something more like 27% muscle in their body (can't remember the exact figures but it's something like that). and that's the starting point. you can only build on what you've got. also women have a higher fat ratio (to protect our offspring) so another thing we have to fight harder. we are genetically different, although there are variations of course. but basically we're working twice as hard to be just as good.

So, the only way they are ever going to really sort it is to put a female team in the TdF. something i'd love to see!!!

(of course, if we have to work twice as hard to be just as good, just because of our genetics, this does, in fact, mean we're better!)


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## lesley_x (31 Jul 2013)

I don't think leg strength is irrelevant. My brother in law is an absolute tank and puts out 1600W on the powerwatt machine. He is so fast it's untrue because he does squats and has massive legs. He flies round the velodrome track despite not being terribly fit in aerobic terms. 

Look at the legs on Chris Hoy







I mean it has to play a part, right?


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## Rob3rt (31 Jul 2013)

Key word again, SPRINTER! It is a very specific discipline in which, by its very essence, very short, maximal efforts are applied. In any other discipline, this is not the case.


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## ufkacbln (31 Jul 2013)

It simply isn't true!

Sooner or later every tourist will be in the following situation:

You are struggling up a hill on your wonderfully equipped toutring bike

A little old lady of small stature and riding a sit up and beg roadster of 50 year (or more years) vintage will creep up alongside you

Then she will overtake you and bimble up the hill she has travelled every day and fade into the distance


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## Rob3rt (31 Jul 2013)

Cunobelin said:


> It simply isn't true!
> 
> Sooner or later every tourist will be in the following situation:
> 
> ...


 

Not comparing like for like.

Compare world records for the same disciplines:

Flying 200m
Men: 9.572 seconds
Women: 10.643
Winner: Men by 1.071 seconds

Flying 500m
Men: 24.758 seconds
Women: 29.655 seconds
Winner: Men by 4.897 seconds

Hour record
Men: 49.7 km
Women: 46.065 km
Winner: Men by 3.635 km

Looks to me like the men are faster both in sprint and longer duration events! It is a fact of life, it doesn't make women's sports any less exciting or credible though!

It would be good to compare over other disciplines too (just for completeness, but the picture would not change), but men and women tend not to compete over the same distances in other events such as team sprint, team pursuit, individual pursuit etc.

If you dropped a female team in the male peloton of a grand tour like the TdF, you would likely do more damage to the image of women's cycling than you would improve it's status and it would just highlight the gap between the genders.


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## zizou (31 Jul 2013)

At amateur level mixed sex races are not uncommon particularly in development road races where it tends to be Cat 3 / 4 males, Juniors (16 and 17) and open category women. It is also common in track leagues.



Hill Wimp said:


> It would be interesting to see Chris Hoy V Victoria Pendleton or Wiggo against Laura Trott as a one off exhibition show.


 
There wouldnt be any competition i'm afraid the gap is just too big.

That doesn't mean women racing other women isn't exciting to watch.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (31 Jul 2013)

lesley_x said:


> I don't think leg strength is irrelevant. My brother in law is an absolute tank and puts out 1600W on the powerwatt machine. He is so fast it's untrue because he does squats and has massive legs. He flies round the velodrome track despite not being terribly fit in aerobic terms.
> 
> Look at the legs on Chris Hoy
> 
> ...


A perfect argument from ignorance. Track disciplines are not comparable to road disciplines, the physical requirements and training differ entirely.


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## ufkacbln (31 Jul 2013)

Rob3rt said:


> Not comparing like for like.


 
Your insight is amazing...... who would have guessed that a tourist on a modern well equipped bike was not comparable with a geriatric on a 50 year ld sit up and beg


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## phil_hg_uk (31 Jul 2013)

Hill Wimp said:


> True i watched Hannah on the TV win that race in York, it was great to see and long may it continue.


 
I was stood right next to the finish line for that. When the main peloton came through I had my camera ready to take a pic of Hannah winning as they where only a few seconds from lapping them, but they had gained that much time on the last lap that I thought the breakaway was going to run right up the arse of the peloton they were that close and I missed getting the picture


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## Hill Wimp (31 Jul 2013)

phil_hg_uk said:


> I was stood right next to the finish line for that. When the main peloton came through I had my camera ready to take a pic of Hannah winning as they where only a few seconds from lapping them, but they had gained that much time on the last lap that I thought the breakaway was going to run right up the arse of the peloton they were that close and I missed getting the picture


 


It looked excellent and those streets looked so tight but im glad it was shown on normal TV rather than Sky/Eurosport etc. I wish the BBC/ITV would just dedicate a channel to any sport other than football and athletics as they are already well covered and then sports like cycling, canoeing and sailing would get far more coverage and encourage a whole new generation which would be fitter, take the strain off the health service and be able to live independently to a ripe old age.

Have i covered all our problems in this country ?


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## phil_hg_uk (31 Jul 2013)

Hill Wimp said:


> It looked excellent and those streets looked so tight but im glad it was shown on normal TV rather than Sky/Eurosport etc. I wish the BBC/ITV would just dedicate a channel to any sport other than football and athletics as they are already well covered and then sports like cycling, canoeing and sailing would get far more coverage and encourage a whole new generation which would be fitter, take the strain off the health service and be able to live independently to a ripe old age.
> 
> Have i covered all our problems in this country ?


 

Yes it was a good race. you don't realise just how fast they are going until you see them doing it live and try to take a picture 

I also went to the Otley Cycle Racing a few weeks earlier and tried a few times to get a picture but in the time between pressing the button and it actually taking a picture they are 100 yards down the road  Hannah was also racing then but her chain came off just before the finish line which was a shame.


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## Hill Wimp (31 Jul 2013)

There's a thread on here somewhere, think its hidden with the pros, asking people to give a heads up to cycling coverage on TV. Shame that isn't a sticky so we can all see it and show our support by raising the TV ratings. I must admit i only spotted the racing in York by pure chance, so glad i did. Bit like the elite triathlon coverage, found that just before i was due to go out and never got where i was supposed to be.


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## deptfordmarmoset (31 Jul 2013)

Hill Wimp said:


> There's a thread on here somewhere, think its hidden with the pros, asking people to give a heads up to cycling coverage on TV. Shame that isn't a sticky so we can all see it and show our support by raising the TV ratings. I must admit i only spotted the racing in York by pure chance, so glad i did. Bit like the elite triathlon coverage, found that just before i was due to go out and never got where i was supposed to be.


Click into the ''cycling on TV'' link in my signature. Bookmark it or put a link into your own signature. It's chiefly drawn from athleticsontv.org.uk and procyclinglive.com. Oh, and to make it easier to read the calendar, use the tab for week view. I've tried but failed to get it to open on anything but ''agenda'' view.


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## Hill Wimp (31 Jul 2013)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> Click into the ''cycling on TV'' link in my signature. Bookmark it or put a link into your own signature. It's chiefly drawn from athleticsontv.org.uk and procyclinglive.com. Oh, and to make it easier to read the calendar, use the tab for week view. I've tried but failed to get it to open on anything but ''agenda'' view.


 


Cheers for that, its an excellent idea well done.


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## phil_hg_uk (31 Jul 2013)

Hill Wimp said:


> There's a thread on here somewhere, think its hidden with the pros, asking people to give a heads up to cycling coverage on TV. Shame that isn't a sticky so we can all see it and show our support by raising the TV ratings. I must admit i only spotted the racing in York by pure chance, so glad i did. Bit like the elite triathlon coverage, found that just before i was due to go out and never got where i was supposed to be.


 

Just found out that the cycling from the Ryedale GP that was on last sunday will be on Eurosport on Saturday 3rd August at 3pm, doesnt say if the womens race will be on but it probably will be as Hannah won it 

I was going to cycle over and watch that but when I woke up a 5:30am there was a heavy storm so I didnt go


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## deptfordmarmoset (31 Jul 2013)

phil_hg_uk said:


> Just found out that the cycling from the Ryedale GP that was on last sunday will be on Eurosport on Saturday 3rd August at 3pm, doesnt say if the womens race will be on but it probably will be as Hannah won it
> 
> I was going to cycle over and watch that but when I woke up a 5:30am there was a heavy storm so I didnt go


The Elite series events at Abergavenny and Beverley are on at the same time on Eurosport tomorrow and Friday.


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## Rob3rt (31 Jul 2013)

Cunobelin said:


> Your insight is amazing...... who would have guessed that a tourist on a modern well equipped bike was not comparable with a geriatric on a 50 year ld sit up and beg


 

So you had no point then...............


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## Rob3rt (31 Jul 2013)

User13710 said:


> Didn't Beryl Burton hold a record over the men for several years in the 1960s? What can have changed I wonder?


 

Yes, a 12 hour record. Nothing changed! She was an exception to the rule, something that is more common in "ultra" endurance events.


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## ufkacbln (31 Jul 2013)

Rob3rt said:


> So you had no point then...............


 
But I do have a sense of humour!


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## Chris Norton (31 Jul 2013)

I cannot see the argument on men v women. Different genders, different speeds etc.

Did I scream less at my TV when the 3 girls were smashing the world record in the pursuit because it was slower than the men? was my disappointment in Pendleton's poor tactics more because she was a women? No, I think I screamed like a banshee at the pursuit and screamed equally at Pendleton's poor choice because it was simply great sport.

Same as the TDF. Let's have a ladies one and show the bastard world that Ladies on bikes are equally competitive (maybe more so) and just as entertaining, just a wee bit slower than the mens version.

It's just sport.


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## Ningishzidda (1 Aug 2013)

Women hold many fishing world records.
Explain that !


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## Ningishzidda (1 Aug 2013)

What happened to Le Grande Boucle?

You know, that Ladies cycle race round France that Nicole Cooke won twice and Emma Pooley won as well.


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## deptfordmarmoset (1 Aug 2013)

Ningishzidda said:


> What happened to Le Grande Boucle?
> 
> You know, that Ladies cycle race round France that Nicole Cooke won twice and Emma Pooley won as well.


I only know the wiki stuff - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tour_de_France_Féminin


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