# Outbound Lighting Road Edition for Brompton?



## CEBEP (29 Nov 2021)

I like good lights and don't like when bike light beam is designed as flashlight. I understand that lights for mountain bikes and road bikes serve different purpose and I think lights need to be marketed as such. I also like StVZO certified lights not only because they don't blind incoming traffic and pedestrians but also because they put all light where it's needed for the road bike. I spent quite some time searching for a good light for my Brompton. With all above in mind it wasn't easy. STVZO certified lights are mainly available in Germany and are mostly not available for delivery to Turkey. I checked other options form the like of Kreptonine and StVZO certified cat eye models (yes they also exist) but couldn't find perfect option.

Monsters from Lupine and Supernova were insanely expensive with pretty big battery packs that I wasn't sure would fit my Brompton.

And then I came across Outbound Lighting in one of the forums. While it's not StVZO certified, it's designed by the same principle with light cutoff and wide spread. So I decided to give it a try as it also looked like battery pack is not too big and could fit under the frame.

Well, it just came in! While I'm yet to make pictures outside of the beam pattern I'm very happy to say that it fits my Brompton. And it fits perfectly! Gopro mount design by outbound lightening is very smart and ensures low profile while mounted with huge gap between the bag mounted on the front carrier block! Looks slick too. I figured best place for battery will be under the front portion of the frame but will need to see how it will fold this way and if cable will rub it too much.

Beam pattern to the wall:




Even though I took my phone camera to manual exposure which didn't change its still not possible to make picture exactly the same as what human eye sees. You see more light than on these pictures but it would give an impression of beam pattern on the ground. Beam pattern would probably be better if the light would've been mounted on the handlebar. Min and Max settings:







Light on TRIGO bracket using gopro friction mount adaptor on the light:







With mounted battery:













Bike folds with this setup just fine.


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## cougie uk (29 Nov 2021)

Light looks good. Your bike is stunning. Love that copper finish.


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## ExBrit (1 Dec 2021)

CEBEP said:


> And then I came across Outbound Lighting in one of the forums. While it's not StVZO certified, it's designed by the same principle with light cutoff and wide spread. So I decided to give it a try as it also looked like battery pack is not too big and could fit under the frame.


How about some links, CEBEP?


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## CEBEP (1 Dec 2021)

ExBrit said:


> How about some links, CEBEP?



https://www.outboundlighting.com/


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## ExBrit (1 Dec 2021)

CEBEP said:


> https://www.outboundlighting.com/


Which one did you buy and what did you use to mount it?


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## CEBEP (1 Dec 2021)

ExBrit said:


> Which one did you buy and what did you use to mount it?



Unless you're not doing trails with your Brompton it's Road Edition. It also includes gopro mount adaptor in the box. 

https://www.outboundlighting.com/products/road-edition

There are several mount brackets available for Brompton on Aliexpress, Aceofix, TWTOPSE but I purchased TRIGO which seemed to me the sturdier one

https://a.aliexpress.com/_vZbdHw

These brackets use gopro friction mount which would allow you to use any adaptor for almost any light brand should you wish to change it.


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## ExBrit (1 Dec 2021)

This is really interesting. I have been looking for a good battery light with a dynamo beam pattern for years. There was one on the market for a while that I tried but it had a crap mount and flew off while I was on a bike path. I even thought about building a small inverter but they're really inefficient. I guess I could have gutted a cheap dynamo light (is there such a thing) and bypassed the rectifier but I never got around to it. This looks like a high quality product with a good mount.

Thanks


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## CEBEP (1 Dec 2021)

No worries. There are few nice reviews of this light on YouTube. All other points aside dynamo light will never be as bright as high capacity battery lights. Just went outside to make a beam shots only to notice that I forgot my smartphone home. Another day then. But what I can tell is mounting it on the handlebar will most likely give better beam pattern as the way I mounted it it's much closer to the ground. But I plan to upgrade my phone mount which will most probably accommodate whole available real estate on the handlebar. Besides, it will most probably interfere with fold mounted on the handlebar. Mounting on the fork bracket makes it unnoticeable. 

Anyways, it folds with full setup just fine. I've added Zefal skin armor protection tape along the area where battery is mount as I've put the cables there which will eventually rub against the paint. May also consider to maybe secure light cable to the fork to make sure it doesn't interfere with fold clip.


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## berlinonaut (1 Dec 2021)

ExBrit said:


> I have been looking for a good battery light with a dynamo beam pattern for years.


There are dozens of StVZo-conform battery lights on the market but indeed not so many that 

1.) play well with the Brompton, 
2.) deliver a decent amount of light and 
3.) do have a mount that works. 

Especially the latter has been a notorious problem for many years. However, it seems the situation is getting better bit by bit. Searching for a really decent battery light I ended up buying a Supernova Airstream a while ago despite the price and the not-so-convincing mount. The light is expensive (but well made), but by far not as good as I would like in various aspects. Just that there was no real alternative for me back then.

In the meantime at least two lights hit the market that I find interesting. If there's a good mount available has to be checked. I do not know any of the two in practice - on paper they do both look interesting:

There is the Leyzene 500 and 550: https://ride.lezyne.com/collections/led-lights-stvzo
And there is the new Supernova M99proB54: https://supernova-lights.com/m99-mini-pro-b54/

Maybe worth a look.


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## CEBEP (1 Dec 2021)

Beside significant difference in prices and other factors, top models from these brands have low and high beams. Since I don't do trail or touring, high beam was an overkill for me. Outbound Road Edition was my choice here. And currently at USD 175 you get alot of light for the money.


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## berlinonaut (1 Dec 2021)

Obviously needs differ. For me, living in Germany, a light w/o conformity to StVzO is not a valid option. So this factor alone outrules the Outbounding light. Obviously, in other countries you don't have that limitaton. Regarding the Lights from Leyzene and Supernova the two differ massively: The Leyzene 550 has a RRP of 149$ (with the street price being considerably lower), so it is even cheaper than the Outbounding. 
The Supernova on the other hand is super expensive: At a RRP of 579€ I would consider the price pretty outragous. From my experience, the Supernova lights are nice but far from perfect (apart from the Airstream 2 along with the fitting rear light I do own a E3pro togehter with the Supernova dynamo rear light as well) and personally I do clearly prefer the SON lights and dynamos despite the Supernovas being more expensive and on paper having more light output. 

The Outounding's technical data state 1500-1600 Lumens which seems *very* high for a light with a dynamo/StVzO-like pattern. On the other hand lumens are not a realy viable number to judge on lights.
The Leyzene states 290 lumens in low beam and 550 lumens in high beam while being StVZo conform. This still sounds rather high for the low beam, but within reach. Supernova states for low beam 75 lumen / 30 lux in eco mode and 450 lumen / 150 lux in standard mode. High beam is 425 lm/70 lx (eco), 1.150 lm/ 260 lx (standard) and 1.600 lm, 275 lx (max mode). Note that the high beam is NOT usable w/o blinding others. 

So I do have my doubts about the numbers of the Outstanding, while it may still be a good and proper light. On the other hand comparison is difficult - in gerneral lux is more reliable here than lumens as stated lumen numbers are often theoretical values or even plain phantasy.


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## CEBEP (1 Dec 2021)

I didn't buy this light because of lumens as lumens values stated by any light manufacturer don't mean much. I bought it because one of the founders of Outbound was ex front light optic designers for cars. I went through alot of reviews both on the website and YouTube. It's not how many lumens light have, it's how much light it outputs on the road where you need it. And most importantly the beam pattern and area of beam hot spot and how wide the beam pattern is distributer. I've seen some reviews of the stvzo certified lights. While beam cutoff is common feature, the beam spread and hot spot differ significantly. Based on reviews I've went through Outbound Road Edition had one of the beast beam design for my needs. While I didn't have chance to check myself yet the light body made of magnesium dissipate heat very successfully. Another key factor for me was the gopro mount, which I didn't find on most of StVZO lights. 

Another few reason why I've chose separate battery light is light weight of the light body. If I would put a huge light with built in battery on the fork mount, it would most probably breake the bracket pretty quick. Also separate battery would allow me to charge the light much less frequent compared to my Fenix light.

Hope this info will help members who consider such option for their Bromptons.


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## CEBEP (1 Dec 2021)

berlinonaut said:


> Leyzene 550 has a RRP of 149$ (with the street price being considerably lower), so it is even cheaper than the Outbounding.



To my knowledge it's an ebike light without battery, so I don't see how it compares to Outbound Rider.


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## berlinonaut (1 Dec 2021)

CEBEP said:


> To my knowledge it's an ebike light without battery, so I don't see how it compares to Outbound Rider.


I read to fast on the Leyzene Webpage. In this case take the 500 - not that much of a difference powerwise: https://ride.lezyne.com/collections/led-lights-stvzo/products/power-hb-drive-stvzo-500


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## rogerzilla (1 Dec 2021)

I got a battery B&M Ixon IQ Premium (80 lux) a few years ago, when Amazon were knocking them out for £25. A bit plasticky, especially the mount, and the output does not compare well to a 70 lux dynamo IQ-XS, but ok for what I paid.

I use a B&M Cyo (60 lux, quite old now) on the Brompton. It is very good.


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## ExBrit (1 Dec 2021)

rogerzilla said:


> I got a battery B&M Ixon IQ Premium (80 lux) a few years ago, when Amazon were knocking them out for £25. A bit plasticky, especially the mount, and the output does not compare well to a 70 lux dynamo IQ-XS, but ok for what I paid.


That's the model that self-destructed on the bike path. I would not recommend it.


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## CEBEP (2 Dec 2021)

rogerzilla said:


> I got a battery B&M Ixon IQ Premium (80 lux) a few years ago, when Amazon were knocking them out for £25. A bit plasticky, especially the mount, and the output does not compare well to a 70 lux dynamo IQ-XS, but ok for what I paid.
> 
> I use a B&M Cyo (60 lux, quite old now) on the Brompton. It is very good.



This is the one I was seriously considering. Premium version had wider beam pattern compared with older one so it was a good choice. It even had replaceable batteries which is a huge plus in my books. But it was a little on bulkier side and I wasn't sure it would fit to the fork bracket, but most importantly no gopro mount adaptor. Which was a nogo for me.


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## rogerzilla (2 Dec 2021)

ExBrit said:


> That's the model that self-destructed on the bike path. I would not recommend it.


It certainly feels as if the battery compartment could spring open at any time, and the bar mount is pathetic


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## berlinonaut (2 Dec 2021)

CEBEP said:


> Another few reason why I've chose separate battery light is light weight of the light body. If I would put a huge light with built in battery on the fork mount, it would most probably breake the bracket pretty quick. Also separate battery would allow me to charge the light much less frequent compared to my Fenix light.


It is always a fun exercise to compare the weight of a battery light (expecially one with an external battery pack) with the weight of a hub dynamo powered solution. Most people assume that battery lights would save a lot of weight. In practice, especially when using a battery front light with decent output and thus a relatively gib battery pack, the weight saving is often minimal (less than 100g) and sometimes a hub dynamo solution is even considerably lighter. Definitively it is less hassle im terms of mounting, less hassle in terms of usage and more stress free - a fire and forget solution. Thus I only use battery lights on bikes that I do ride only rarely and even more rarely in the dark as then the advantage to switch the lights in between multiple bikes comes into account. In all other scenarios I clearly favor hub dynamos. Personal taste in the end - your mileage may vary.


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## berlinonaut (2 Dec 2021)

rogerzilla said:


> I got a battery B&M Ixon IQ Premium (80 lux) a few years ago, when Amazon were knocking them out for £25. A bit plasticky, especially the mount, and the output does not compare well to a 70 lux dynamo IQ-XS, but ok for what I paid.
> 
> I use a B&M Cyo (60 lux, quite old now) on the Brompton. It is very good.


This reflects my experience as well. In practice, the beam patterns of dynamo lights seem to be far better than the ones of battery lights in most cases plus the fit is more reliable so that they do not need readjustment all the time. I do own the Ixon Premium as well for many years - at the time when it came out it was possibly the most decent battery light. Today it is bulky and overtaken by other lights. Also the Cyo is I think about 10+ years old from it's design and technology has moved on - it's newer siblings Cyo Premium and the various newer lights from BUMM and others clearly outperform it. Still, it is still way better than many battery lights in my eyes.



CEBEP said:


> I wasn't sure it would fit to the fork bracket,


It does, but it is a bulky unit. If I would not own it already I would not go for it today as over the last ten years technology has moved on and you get the same and better light amounts in less bulkier packages.


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## CEBEP (2 Dec 2021)

berlinonaut said:


> It does, but it is a bulky unit. If I would not own it already I would not go for it today as over the last ten years technology has moved on and you get the same and better light amounts in less bulkier packages.



It still looks like it'll rub on mounted bag.


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## berlinonaut (2 Dec 2021)

CEBEP said:


> It still looks like it'll rub on mounted bag.


That's just the perspective. It works, but only just.


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## CEBEP (2 Dec 2021)

berlinonaut said:


> It is always a fun exercise to compare the weight of a battery light (expecially one with an external battery pack) with the weight of a hub dynamo powered solution.



I didn't compare the weight with hub dynamo. Since I don't do trails and always have access to the electricity I didn't even consider buying a hub dynamo with light.

I was considering the weight of the light I'd mount on the work bracket. Last thing I wanted is light to break the bracket and fall down in the middle of the road.


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## CEBEP (2 Dec 2021)

Few worlds about customer support of Outbound Lighting. After I placed the order I sent them an email asking to send me EU plug charger. Package received had Australian one 




I emailed Tom again and while he also couldn't understand how AU charger ended up been sent to me they immediately shipped new EU charger to me. And to my question whether or not batteries are user replaceable here was the answer:

_In regards to your battery question, the cells are not userserviceable, as that would have made it much bulkier and more prone to failure, leading to a worse product, which we didn't want, so we just cover any battery issues you have for free, rather than forcing you to come to us and charging you crazy fees for it._

They provide 3 years warranty, no nonsense about not shipping here or there or "please talk to your local distributor" etc. Here are their warranty terms on their website:

*3-YEAR WARRANTY - AND BEYOND*
_In short: we got you. Whatever problem you're having, just send us an email and we'll respond (typically the same day) and get you taken care of. We don't think our customers should have to pay money out of pocket beyond the initial purchase to keep their lights running for at least 3 years, but we know shoot happens out there, and we'll stand behind the product no matter what. Honestly, if you're nice to us, we'll gladly support you for the life of the product for free, we just call it our "Don't Be A Dick Warranty Extension Policy."

*LOVE IT OR RETURN IT GUARANTEE*
We truly believe in the products we develop, as we use them everyday. We are so convinced that they're beyond anything you've currently used that we give you 30 days to return the product for a full refund as long as it's still in good condition, we'll even cover the shipping for domestic orders!_


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## CEBEP (2 Dec 2021)

Updated first post with beam shots.


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## berlinonaut (2 Dec 2021)

CEBEP said:


> I didn't compare the weight with hub dynamo. Since I don't do trails and always have access to the electricity I didn't even consider buying a hub dynamo with light.


As said before: Needs and opinions differ as do experiences. I don't do trails on my Brompton. Still, in the past, I've often enough ended up with flat batteries, a light that was left at home and stuff like that. Especially for an urban utility bike I personally do consider a hub dynamo solution much superior than any battery lights. It is always there, it always works, fire and forget. Again, your mileage may vary.


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## shingwell (2 Dec 2021)

On the subject of dynamo lights and batteries, I have found that decent quality LED dynamo lights will work off a rechargable USB battery pack which is smaller, lighter and longer lasting than "old fashioned" batteries. The trick is to take a USB charging cable, cut off the end that _isn't_ going to be plugged into the battery, and wire the exposed red and black cores to to the light + and -, cutting off any other exposed cores. I once had a cheap chinese light that didn't work in this way, but all the good makes I have tried have worked (dynamos are 6 volts nominal but varies widely according to speed, USB is 5 volts). Of course you still have to find somewhere to mount the battery where water doesn't go down the USB connector.


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## rogerzilla (2 Dec 2021)

The last Brompton lighting setup I did (on a friend's bike) was a s/h Shimano hub, B&M Myc headlight* and B&M Flat S Plus rear light. Cost about half what the Brompton kit would (I reused his front rim, as it was unworn) but it has twice the lux output and the rear light is much more visible than the one Brompton use, where the illuminated strip tends to be hidden by the rear brake. I was following someone with that light in London and it's invisible from a distance.

*the Brompton bracket has a reputation for breaking, so we modified (bent) a standard B&M medium bracket to go under the front carrier block.


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## CEBEP (5 Dec 2021)

@berlinonaut what would you say the best option today for dynamo and light for Brompton? The best light which delivers best and brightest beam? Only front light. For dynamo what would you say the best option in terms of minimal drag resistance when light is off and lower drag when used?


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## berlinonaut (5 Dec 2021)

CEBEP said:


> @berlinonaut what would you say the best option today for dynamo and light for Brompton? The best light which delivers best and brightest beam? Only front light. For dynamo what would you say the best option in terms of minimal drag resistance when light is off and lower drag when used?


The best hub dynamo is no doubt the SON. The best light is a bit a matter of taste. In my opinion it is still the Edelux, though the Bumm IQ-X is a bit brighter and the Supernova E3-pro claims to be in the same range. I do know all three in practice on the Brompton and clearly prefer the Edelux - in my eyes it has the best beam of the three. Clearly better than the Supernova. The IQ-X can - when sorrowfully adjusted - be as good (or depending on your taste maybe even a bit better) but adjustment of the IQ-X is a pita plus it is mechanically prone to failures (mine died after 1,5 years and I am not alone while my Edeluxes last since I bought them many years ago) plus the IQ-X has a switch that is completely useless. I also prefer the light color of the Edelux over the very cold one of the IQ X. In opposite to the IQ X the Exelux clearly has the best usability and the best mechanical quality - do run currently three, one first generation one and two second generation ones.
Be aware that you can buy the Edelux in a normal version, intended for the position near the front brake, but also in a hanging version that you can mount under the bars if you prefer that.

If you leave the range of lights compatible to German StVo Supernova offers the E3 triple3 which should be recognizably brighter than the legal ones. I do not have personal experience with it but know people that are convinced by it. There are also the k-lite Bikepacker Ultra and Bikepacker Pro from Australia which claim to be the brightest dynamo bike light (intended for MTB-use). Again, no personal experience.


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## CEBEP (5 Dec 2021)

@berlinonaut thanks for detailed response. Would you call starbike.com a reliable website to buy stuff? I've ordered MKS pedals from them and am waiting my order to be shipped.


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## berlinonaut (5 Dec 2021)

CEBEP said:


> Would you call starbike.com a reliable website to buy stuff? I've ordered MKS pedals from them and am waiting my order to be shipped.


I don't know that shop and it's from my perspective at the exact opposite side of the country.  Looks like a shop in a small town offering many high level components. So not one of the commonly known shops but no obvious sings that should make one suspicious neither.


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## u_i (5 Dec 2021)

I have ordered from starbike many times, had friendly exchanges with them and never any problems.


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## CEBEP (7 Dec 2021)

After using the light for a week I decided to return it. The beam hot spot is concentrated right in front of the back and throw is much shorter than I would expect. Not comfortable for me to ride at speed. The issue is mounting point. Turns out the beam was designed to be mounted at the handlebar hight and not to the fork of 16' Brompton. I agree with others that it would've been useful if mounting hight would've been indicated in Outbound website. Sent this suggestion to Tom. 

I'll move forward with dynamo hub + light. Have ordered SON bub with Brompton rim + Edelux II as suggested by @berlinonaut I was really, really tempted to order IQ-X but after reading more reviews decided to stick with Edelux II. It seems like this setup of SON hub and light will be solid as a tank. Just what I need to set it and forget it. Interestingly enough it was difficult for me to find Edelux II in black color with 36cm cable from websites I know which ship to Turkey. Starbike.com have them on pre-order with no shipping date and bike24.com had last one on stock which I snagged immediately


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## CEBEP (7 Dec 2021)

Interestingly I did find much info about it in the internet but Brompton should be much better using dynamo. Normally dynamo capacity etc is described at speeds, when you reach 15 km/h it will reach this capacity etc. But Brompton wheel does about twice as much rotation as a normal bike's wheel which should cut that speed when you reach dynamo's full capacity in half. Unless SON SX designed for Brompton out less magnets to keep drag down and match speeds of normal bikes. I'm wandering how my setup will perform at lower speeds. Absence of rear light connected to dynamo should help as well.


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## berlinonaut (7 Dec 2021)

CEBEP said:


> Unless SON SX designed for Brompton out less magnets to keep drag down and match speeds of normal bikes. I'm wandering how my setup will perform at lower speeds. Absence of rear light connected to dynamo should help as well.


The XS is designed specifically for smaller wheels (that's why it's called "XS" ). It will perform well at lower speeds. Absence of a dynamo rear light doesn't make a noticable difference. The Edelux is easy to adjust on the Brompton (you'll obviously need a Brompton light bracket or one that fits the Brompton). It is - as far as I know - based on the Cyo Premium reflector (a from today's perspective older design) but performs way better due to the better heat design and general better craftmanship and more strict selection of parts when constructing and building the lamp. On my touring Brompton I fitted an additional lamp to the handlebar to have a high beam - in practice I never used it so it is gone again already for a while. I had hoped for an Edelux III for a while already but Mr. Schmidt has been busy doing other things and now he has moved his production workshop to a new location recently, so they are really busy with other tasks.


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## rogerzilla (7 Dec 2021)

All small wheeled bikes should have special low pole count dynamo hubs (it makes no difference with bottle dynamos, as they are always driven at road speed). SP make S- versions for up to 20" wheels, and P- versions for larger wheels. Shimano also make hubs with fewer poles for small-wheeled bikes but their nomenclature is less obvious.

The old Sturmey-Archer Dynohub was the same for any size wheel, so was pretty unsuitable in the original Moultons it was often fitted to (349 tyres, same as Brompton). If you find yourself with one of these, a voltage regulator would certainly be a good idea to save on new bulbs; hubs don't saturate as much as bottle dynamos, so the voltage can really get out of hand at high speeds. Most voltage regulators use a zener diode pack to dump the excess voltage into a resistor and save no power at all, so it is best not to generate too much power in the first place.


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## CEBEP (7 Dec 2021)

berlinonaut said:


> The XS is designed specifically for smaller wheels (that's why it's called "XS" ). It will perform well at lower speeds. Absence of a dynamo rear light doesn't make a noticable difference. The Edelux is easy to adjust on the Brompton (you'll obviously need a Brompton light bracket or one that fits the Brompton). It is - as far as I know - based on the Cyo Premium reflector (a from today's perspective older design) but performs way better due to the better heat design and general better craftmanship and more strict selection of parts when constructing and building the lamp. On my touring Brompton I fitted an additional lamp to the handlebar to have a high beam - in practice I never used it so it is gone again already for a while. I had hoped for an Edelux III for a while already but Mr. Schmidt has been busy doing other things and now he has moved his production workshop to a new location recently, so they are really busy with other tasks.



@rogerzilla has valid point regarding higher voltage. As far as I know IQ-X has high voltage protection, do you know whether or not Edelux II has one as well? I'd like to think that I should not have any issues with SON hub and light assuming they designed both to be paired.


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## berlinonaut (7 Dec 2021)

According to the manual of the Edelux:

_Overvoltage Protection The electronics within the Edelux II limits the output at the rear light to 8 Volt and in this way protects LED-rear lights of overvoltage. Rear lights with bulbs should not be applied together with the Edelux II._

Also: _Battery-powered use of the Edelux II is not recommended. Voltage higher than 7.2 V – even for a very short time – may damage electronics and LED. Though voltage lower than 6.5 V is uncritical, it reduces brightness._

Running the Edelux w/o a rear light is ok according to manual and FAQ. I would completely trust Mr Schmidt only to sell stuff that is absolutely fit for purpose. So no worries.


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## CEBEP (9 Dec 2021)

Thanks @berlinonaut 

I wander what experience other users have with dynamo back lights. Trying to decide whether to keep my battery back light or install a dynamo one. 

My thought process for Dynamo vs battery:

Pro's for battery: 
- can be mounted higher under the seatpost - better visibility 
- day/night modes with different blinking patterns 
- no hassle with installation, no cables 

Cons:
- remember to charge it 

Pro's for dynamo back light:
- install once and forget. 

Cons:
- as far as I know there are no blinking models. Either on or off. 
- installed much lower, in my case behind the rack - lower visibility. I'm aware of under the seatpost dynamo lights but will not do it with cable.


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## berlinonaut (9 Dec 2021)

Not too much to say about dynamo rear lights. They are simply fire and forget and brand as well as type do not matter to much as long as the light fits the Brompton (which probably 90+% do). You can use the SON rear light if you like as it is small, well made and really nice to look at (but more expensive than most others). In combination with the Edelux you should avoid the Supernova tail light as it's stand light only works in combination with supernova dynamo front lights.
Regarding "no blinking": I do see this as an advantage. A blinking light makes it much harder for anyone behind you to calcultat the distance to you . close to impossible. Furthermore they are totally annoying if ride close behind someone with a blinking light (i.e. in a cycle lane). 
I other aspects battery and dynamo rear lights are at level regarding the light output. Batteries in rear lights tend to last for years, so not too much risk of ending up with no light. On the other hand there's no disadvantage of a dynamo rear light - it completes the fire and forget scenario. The only thing is the missing option to mount t on the seat post due to the cable. In practice this has never turned out to be a problem. On the Brompton the mounting point has been where it is since the early 80ies and 700.000 bikes. I am not aware of a single incident or accident that was caused by the low mounting point of the rear light.


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## CEBEP (9 Dec 2021)

SON tail light Black with clear lens doesn't seem to be available anywhere, on Bike24 it's out of stock. 

Any experience with B&M Toplight Breake Plus? It seem to sense when hub slows down and increase brightness, that of Edelux II will still supply AC current to the rear.


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## shingwell (9 Dec 2021)

I have always used two lights front and back on my bikes. If the rear one in particular fails in use you will not know and you can be practically invisible to cars. If the front one fails in use you will know about it, but you might be in a ditch by then (I really did help someone out of a ditch down a dark country lane once who suffered this very reason).

On a B it can be difficult to arrange two lights each end but I use dynamo lights for the main lights and the little round strap-on rechargable lights as my backup lights - the strap can fit round the handlebars and seatpost.

If you only ever cycle in a streetlit city perhaps it's not so bad, but the lanes where I live can get very dark on some nights.


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## rogerzilla (9 Dec 2021)

The main problem with a dynamo rear on a Brompton (and why I don't have one on my S6L) is the vulnerability of the wiring when folding. Brompton provide instructions for how to route the cable (it is non-intuitive, so you need to read the .pdf carefully) and it needs to be taped/ziptied securely to avoid loose parts that could get snagged. You might want to use SON Koaxial cable for maximum life when the bike is folded twice daily.

I ride at night sufficiently rarely that I'm happy with a battery rear light (can last all winter with lithium AAAs). I do like a dynamo headlight, though, as headlights either eat batteries or require some sort of charging regime - annoying when the bike is used intermittently.


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## berlinonaut (9 Dec 2021)

Hmm, didn't and don't find the wiring in any way complicated or confusing and never suffered from vulnerability. Do second the hint regarding the SON coax-cable, I do use it as well.


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## CEBEP (9 Dec 2021)

I didn't find much info about SON Coaxial cable. My understanding is it's slimmer (one inside the other) and also connections to the hub have quick disconnect plugs. But I didn't understand what I'll need to order to have front (and if necessary rear) light to use coaxial cables. Could anyone elaborate?


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## berlinonaut (9 Dec 2021)

"Normal" cables are two separate copper wires. The SON coax cable is - well - a coaxial cable where both phases do share a single housing. It is more flexlible and more robust and especially on a folder better as the cable will not break as easily. Also, in the meantime there are optionally more elegant connectors available for it than for "normal" cables. https://nabendynamo.de/en/products/wiring/ On the Brompton you would in most cases not use the quick-connector plugs. Still, from experience the cable is preferable over the "normal" ones.

It is clearly not necessary to use it, it just one of those things that are better than ordinary, make life easier, look better and are in the area of the last 20% to perfection, that many people don't care about while other people value it.


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## ExBrit (9 Dec 2021)

CEBEP said:


> SON tail light Black with clear lens doesn't seem to be available anywhere, on Bike24 it's out of stock.
> 
> Any experience with B&M Toplight Breake Plus? It seem to sense when hub slows down and increase brightness, that of Edelux II will still supply AC current to the rear.


I have both the brake and non-brake versions of the Toplight and I like them. I'm not sure the brake feature is that useful - a rider behind you will see the gap close before they register the light getting brighter. Although two cues are better than one. It is reasonably bright for a 0.6 Watt light with good all-round visibility. The reflector adds a lot to its visibility too. Stand light (with Edelux II) is above average in my experience.

I ride this in combination with a battery, daylight visible, tight spot, Cygolite tail light. The combination makes you visible to drivers behind you during the day and also visible from behind and the side at night. You can always turn the Cygolite solid and dim it at night if you are in a group. Or you can use it as an excuse to draft the pack because no-one wants to ride behind you


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## Kell (10 Dec 2021)

WRT lights, I'm very much belt and braces. 

In the past I've lost a back light (or two) over the years. So I always run two (for most of the reasons above). Loss or failure of one is mitigated by having a spare. 

One the rear, I've actually got three (Belt, braces and an extra piece of string). As I also replaced the rear reflector for one with an integrated (battery) light. 

Plus I have two of these - one mounted on the seatpost as shown, and they also do the same light but with a mounting system that attaches to the seat rails. They're great value too at less than £15. I remove them and charge them at work (USB Cable) so they're always charged for the home journey. I think I have about four now in total. They're great.

These glow more when you slow down and I've not lost one so far. (Picture is clickable and should take you to Amazon)


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## CEBEP (10 Dec 2021)

Decided to go with SON Rear dynamo light. What the heck, I'm already installing a hub and a front light, so why not hook up a rear light and forget about batteries. While my research I've seen some negative feedbacks regarding B&M rear light dying in users after 6-12 months. So decided to go with SON. It seems like it will come with coaxial cable already. Any tips on wiring back light? I'll mount it on a rack.


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## u_i (11 Dec 2021)

B&M dying had been pretty straightforward. The backup capacitor was a bit heavy for the leads a broke off after a while. The fix was to open the light and solder the capacitor back. As I understand, B&M corrected the issue so those posts likely pertained to the lights bought earlier. I have a Toplight Line on the Brompton for long enough to state that it passed. The only issue I had was when I put a folded Brompton into a shower cabin to wash off a thick layer of mud and the upside down light got flooded. It lingered getting back to life, apparently slow to dry, but after a while it was all good.


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## CEBEP (11 Dec 2021)

u_i said:


> B&M dying had been pretty straightforward. The backup capacitor was a bit heavy for the leads a broke off after a while. The fix was to open the light and solder the capacitor back. As I understand, B&M corrected the issue so those posts likely pertained to the lights bought earlier. I have a Toplight Line on the Brompton for long enough to state that it passed. The only issue I had was when I put a folded Brompton into a shower cabin to wash off a thick layer of mud and the upside down light got flooded. It lingered getting back to life, apparently slow to dry, but after a while it was all good.



And SON Rear Light is water sealed and SON gives 5 year warranty on their products which tells me that lights they do are in different category quality wise. My understanding is that SON is alot smaller than B&M yet products they do have higher quality and are built like a tank. My idea is to set this whole dynamo light system up once and forget about it. That's why I'm following @berlinonaut advise and am sticking up with SON.


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## u_i (11 Dec 2021)

CEBEP said:


> And SON Rear Light is water sealed and SON gives 5 year warranty on their products which tells me that lights they do are in different category quality wise. My understanding is that SON is alot smaller than B&M yet products they do have higher quality and are built like a tank. My idea is to set this whole dynamo light system up once and forget about it. That's why I'm following @berlinonaut advise and am sticking up with SON.



I have no experience with the SON Rear Light, so I may be a bit overstretching here, but I think the issue is more complicated. When you deal with a housing you need to consider the issue of pressure difference between inside and outside. An opening allows for the pressures to even out. A way around it is to make the housing compact, so rigidity of the enclosure can cope with the pressure difference. However, for a light there is a price to pay as a more spread out light makes it easier for the viewer to assess the distance to the light. Also SON lacks a reflector that you need to bother with separately.


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## CEBEP (11 Dec 2021)

u_i said:


> I have no experience with the SON Rear Light, so I may be a bit overstretching here, but I think the issue is more complicated. When you deal with a housing you need to consider the issue of pressure difference between inside and outside. An opening allows for the pressures to even out. A way around it is to make the housing compact, so rigidity of the enclosure can cope with the pressure difference. However, for a light there is a price to pay as a more spread out light makes it easier for the viewer to assess the distance to the light. Also SON lacks a reflector that you need to bother with separately.



Can't really say about pressure difference issue really but I know that body is CNC machined from aluminum slab and I can only assume it should cope with pressure difference. After all this is what these guys are doing for life - bike lights and hubs, so I assume they sorted it out. Another point is that water tight unit doesn't mean it's air tight as air molecules are smaller, so there might be a workaround to allow air to escape evening out the pressure while maintaining water tightness. Specially considering the light is not designed to be submerged so it's lower IP rating I assume.

Reflector is not an issue, my Brompton comes with rear reflector already which SON thoughtfully allows you to reuse adding this bracket for EUR 3.28


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## berlinonaut (11 Dec 2021)

The SON rear light is definitively fire and forget and a beauty in terms of craftsmanship. Absolutely no issues whatsoever. It is indeed missing a reflector which you could include but honestly: With the SON lights I don't use one, neither on the front nor on the rear as these lights simply never stop working. So in my personal opinion no need for a reflector.
There is a way cheaper similar sized rear light available from BUMM, the Toplight line small: https://www.bumm.de/en/products/dynamo-rucklichter/parent/53234/produkt/53234ask.html?

It is however cheaply made and i managed to crack the mounting points already when mounting the light.


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## rogerzilla (11 Dec 2021)

The red rear reflector is mandatory in the UK, as are pedal reflectors for bikes made from 1985 onwards. I admit this law is not particularly well-observed but it could give the defence a bit of ammunition after an accident.


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## u_i (11 Dec 2021)

CEBEP said:


> After all this is what these guys are doing for life - bike lights and hubs, so I assume they sorted it out.



I have a SON dynamo on a full size bike and have a personal connection to Schmidt Maschinenbau and do not doubt their professionalism. Still even the best in the field can slip - didn't Union fold because of the teething problems in the Schmidt designed dynamo that evolved with time into SON?



CEBEP said:


> Reflector is not an issue, my Brompton comes with rear reflector already which SON thoughtfully allows you to reuse adding this bracket for EUR 3.28
> 
> View attachment 621536


That is nice.



berlinonaut said:


> So in my personal opinion no need for a reflector.



A reflector is a legal requirement in many countries. Isn't it the case in Germany? When a reflector is illuminated with bright car lights it is usually brighter than any powered bike light which I can attest riding in the dark behind others. In my experience it is imprudent to get out without one, even when having other light. It is an insurance, for one, that costs nothing in terms of weight.


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## Tenkaykev (11 Dec 2021)

u_i said:


> I have a SON dynamo on a full size bike and have a personal connection to Schmidt Maschinenbau and do not doubt their professionalism. Still even the best in the field can slip - didn't Union fold because of the teething problems in the Schmidt designed dynamo that evolved with time into SON?
> 
> 
> That is nice.
> ...


Very much the rear reflectors. They are scattering back the light from the vehicles light source and as such are “free “ illumination for the cyclist.


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## CEBEP (11 Dec 2021)

berlinonaut said:


> The SON rear light is definitively fire and forget and a beauty in terms of craftsmanship. Absolutely no issues whatsoever. It is indeed missing a reflector which you could include but honestly: With the SON lights I don't use one, neither on the front nor on the rear as these lights simply never stop working. So in my personal opinion no need for a reflector.
> There is a way cheaper similar sized rear light available from BUMM, the Toplight line small: https://www.bumm.de/en/products/dynamo-rucklichter/parent/53234/produkt/53234ask.html?
> 
> It is however cheaply made and i managed to crack the mounting points already when mounting the light.



None of these are available in local market here in Turkey. So anything I order adds international shipping + import tax. Can't risk with lights going offline in a year, hence ordering the best quality I can.


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## CEBEP (12 Dec 2021)

I couldn't find much info about drag value of SON XS under load. As far as I know without load it's drag value is 0,7W. Assuming both front and back lights will load full 3W of electrical load on the dynamo what would the drag be?


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## u_i (12 Dec 2021)

It is below what body can realistically sense when pedalling.


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## rogerzilla (12 Dec 2021)

Generally, drag will be about 5-6W. It depends on speed, though.


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## berlinonaut (12 Dec 2021)

CEBEP said:


> I couldn't find much info about drag value of SON XS under load. As far as I know without load it's drag value is 0,7W. Assuming both front and back lights will load full 3W of electrical load on the dynamo what would the drag be?





u_i said:


> It is below what body can realistically sense when pedalling.





rogerzilla said:


> Generally, drag will be about 5-6W. It depends on speed, though.


As u_i said: You won't recognize it. When dealing with Watts:

Do you _know_, how many Watts _you_ need on _your_ bike for a certain speed?
Do you _know_ how many Watts you are able do deliver continuously?
Do you _know_ which parts of your bike consume how many of those Watts (that thus cannot be used for speed)?
Do you _know_ how much of the necessary Watts at a given speed are caused/consumed by rolling resistance, how many by aerodynamics and how many by friction losses?
If not, a discussion about what amount of Watts a certain dynamo consumes is pretty pointless as you neither have an idea what effect it really has nor if there are other areas for optimization...  It also helps to have a rough idea of the connection between electrical power, current and resistance in a bike lightening setup to better understand the amount of power needed from the rider on the input side.

Regarding the SON XS: There was a test of a prototype of the SON XS along with other dynamo hubs back in 2004 and these were the outcomes on a 20"/Etro 406 wheel:

Losses when idle (you should have in mind that a dynamoless hub would have losses, too):






Efficiency under load:





Current produced:





There's a newer test which includes other dynamo hubs as well (like the SP8) but does not include the SON XS (but other SON dynamo hubs) and it was performed on 28" wheels: https://fahrradzukunft.de/14/neue-nabendynamos-im-test

Here you see the losses when idle again:






Here is the electrical power produced at different speeds:





Here is the power consumed under load at different speeds to produce the results from above graphic:





If you want to get a ballpark idea of how much power you need to maintain a certain speed on your bike you should have a look at Kreuzotter: http://kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm
It helps to have in mind that roughly up to about 25 km/h rolling resistance is the dominating factor and above that speed wind resistance takes over more and more. Obviously other forces like friction in the hubs, the drivetrain with things like chain tensioner, hub gears or a filthy chain take their toll as well.


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## CEBEP (12 Dec 2021)

I don't understand why dynamo hub producers don't publish this data. It's all measurable after all and I'd be interested to know what efficiency the hub I'll want to buy will have and what drag.


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## CEBEP (12 Dec 2021)

@berlinonaut you will not be able to tell the difference being outside between - 18 or - 19 Co considering it will feel different if it's dry or humid, windy or still. Yet you are still checking exact temperature value before you go out. Since watts is the measure value for drag it absolutely makes sence to know this value to be able to compare with other hubs, even if I don't know how much W I input. Which I can calculate within 3 seconds though.

Charts you've posted are interesting. I've also looked through several reviews and hub tests but didn't find much info particularly about SON XS model. It seems like it's ideal drag at 10km/h is 0,7W and as far as I know the wheel hub will have 0,5W drag. So it's almost the same which is awesome since I don't do and don't plan to do night long rides. XS also seems to be among the most efficient hubs out there among wide range of speeds.


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## rogerzilla (13 Dec 2021)

Samples vary. I have a lot of dynamo hub wheels built over 20 years or so. With lights on, a spin test doesn't show much difference between SON, SP or Shimano 3N80 in the appropriate-sized wheel. Lights-off drag varies far more as bearing and seal friction are a larger percentage.

A Shimano 3N80 I have is better than the original "tin can" SON28. I have an SP SV-8 which is quite draggy but an SV-9 is much freer. Shimano hubs use cup and cone bearings and the more affordable ones, made outside Japan, tend to be very tight out of the box, so should be checked and adjusted before use.

My preference on a performance/cost basis is Shimano for 700c wheels but SP for smaller ones (I don't think the Shimano 74mm/8mm axle Brompton hub is still available - it was very heavy but otherwise excellent). SON hubs are very nicely made and would be my preference if I did huge mileages on a small-wheeled bike, since the bearings usually last better than SP's.


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