# Building leg strength without hurting the knee's



## montage (5 Jun 2009)

Well I may be off the bike for a while...are there any ways to build up my leg muscle, especially the thighs, without involving the knee's so much?

Cheers


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## BIGSESAL (5 Jun 2009)

Almost all weight bearing exercise will push forces through the knee. Swimming can be a good way to build up muscle without putting pressure on the knees.


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## cheadle hulme (5 Jun 2009)

You're a bit stuck as the knee is crucial to most exercises. Stiff legged dead lifts mainly work the lower back, but the thighs need to be well tensed to carry the opposite force, so they may help. Still puts force through the knee, if not moving force.

What have you done anyway?


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## Jim_Noir (5 Jun 2009)

Loads and loads of squats with weights ski squats too, lunges with weigths and burpes. Get a heavy bag and kick the living day light out it. stiff-legged Dead lifts and steap-ups with weights.... and ye old standing calf raise followed by tibia raises. Also if you can do them them donkey calf raise, but videio yourself doing these and post the vid 

Just don't lock the knees out and keep them bent a bit, even doing the deadlifts.


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## montage (5 Jun 2009)

I got some annoying thing where the kneecap isnt lining up properly.... I am seeing physio on monday...so thanks for the recommendations Jim Noir....but those excersizes will destroy my knees


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## col (6 Jun 2009)

montage said:


> I got some annoying thing where the kneecap isnt lining up properly.... I am seeing physio on monday...so thanks for the recommendations Jim Noir....but those excersizes will destroy my knees



Unfortunately due to your knee you cant really build muscle , you need that sorting first as there needs to be considerable pressure on the knees to get any real results. Light exercises as long as it doesnt hurt can keep you ticking over though until your knee is sorted.


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## ASC1951 (6 Jun 2009)

Jim_Noir said:


> Loads and loads of squats with weights


I'd be very careful about that. Check with the physio first - it's easy to cause further knee damage doing squats with weights.

I think you're much safer with swimming, especially with training fins or no-hands i.e. with a float.


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## montage (6 Jun 2009)

ASC1951 said:


> I'd be very careful about that. Check with the physio first - it's easy to cause further knee damage doing squats with weights.
> 
> I think you're much safer with swimming, especially with training fins or no-hands i.e. with a float.



I know that this will damage my knees further. I can go swimming (got to wake up earlier though  ) .... just can't really be bothered to go 4/5 times a week to maintain fitness lol. Will ankle weights do anything for me?


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## I am Spartacus (6 Jun 2009)

You might be surprised when your physio .. if he or she is any good , prescribes strength training for your legs then won't you?


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## montage (6 Jun 2009)

I am Spartacus said:


> You might be surprised when your physio .. if he or she is any good , prescribes strength training for your legs then won't you?



nope.
If I have a muscle imbalance then the physio will correct that with strengthening excersizes...


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## Will1985 (6 Jun 2009)

Have cleat shims been suggested at all? They can help correct pronation/supination at the ankle, knee and hip. If not, a trip to CycleFit may be worth it.


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## fossyant (6 Jun 2009)

What have you done to your knee then ?

Cycling is mainly cardio efficiency (yeh leg strength, but the CV system is where it's at) - see what the physio mentions - maybe rowing in a gym, but without the leg movements....


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## Dan B (7 Jun 2009)

montage said:


> I got some annoying thing where the kneecap isnt lining up properly.... I am seeing physio on monday...


If it's a kneecap tracking thing, there's a good chance it's due to an imbalance between your inner and outer thigh muscles, and *any* exercise to build up the outers will therefore be counterproductive.

Do the exercises Mr Physio gives


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## magnatom (7 Jun 2009)

montage said:


> nope.
> If I have a muscle imbalance then the physio will correct that with strengthening excersizes...




I bet this is a weakness in your Vastus Medialis Obliquus (VMO). I'm no expert, but I had problems with this following knee surgery. If this is the case then it is likely that the physio will have you doing exercises that require short squats, i.e. only bending you leg slightly. It is in this range of movement, that you use your VMO apparently. The VMO is the muscle on the inside front of the thigh that should pull your patella (knee cap) over to the centre 

Sound like you might have Chondromalacia Patellae.


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## Jim_Noir (7 Jun 2009)

If you don't want to put a load on your knee but work the thighs then get a football. Pump it up, lie on your back with the ball between your thighs and try and burst the ball. if you hold your legs up straigh off the ground you will work the abs too.
Also, no I not good at explaining this so bare with me . Go on all 4s, lift your leg as if you are a dog doing a pee, do it to the count of 4 or slower, and do as many reps on each leg as you can. also doggy style, push one leg behing you straight about an inch off the groundthen bend the knee to work the hammie, straighten leg and lower.
Lie on your side top leg is out at 90o from your hip, knee bent, lift the back leg (which is straight) about an inch off the ground, then lower. Do them slow and controlled.

The knee is the weak joint and if you can build the muscle around it. Yoga and pilates are a good send for the hips, core, knees and ankles. I used to have hellish problems after fights with my left ankle, not had one problem since taking up yoga and pilates. Also rosehip, tesco do it cheap as chips, is wonderfull for the joints.


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## 02GF74 (7 Jun 2009)

squars with heavy weights will explode your knees if you already have probs, even if you strap up, I wouldn't recommend it.

Can you do squats without any weights without pain in the knees?


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## Bill Gates (8 Jun 2009)

Sit against a wall with your back straight and nothing to support you but your thighs which should be horizontal and your calfs vertical. Start off with 30 seconds and work up from there. Your thighs will burn like mad and when you stop you will be very stiff for a few minutes . 

When I was racing many years ago I used this exercise to simulate the burn and the suffering I wanted to experience in my legs for a short TT. Hard to believe now but over time I was able to manage the exercise for 10 minutes. It won't replace CV training though.


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## willhub (8 Jun 2009)

Uh oh... , I never realized you have to take lots of time off for the knee cap not lining up correctly, I'm waiting for the results of my MRI scan and I think I may have the same problem! The doctors will probs take ages to refer me to a physio :


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## montage (8 Jun 2009)

Well my issue is IT band whatsitmajig. So lots of spespfic stretching, then later excersizes to reduce the musle imbalance. Allowed on the bike once a week aslong as I keep it to 30 mins and spin (I think we can stretch this to twice a week  ) .....so I guess it is time to hop in the local swimming pool every morning. Cheers for all the ideas, something to strongly consider (though I don't want to increase the muscle imbalance)


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## Jim_Noir (8 Jun 2009)

Up here in Glasgow, and I would think all of the UKs NHS would be the same, you just go along (for my local hospital it's a Wednesday) an wait for a physio to see you. Sure you could be there all day, but better than waiting months on end. To be honest when I had my ankle issue I found the Physio at the hospital shite... well more the fact she said stop running and stop your training. I then went to a ciropractor and two sessions with her helped (she was the one that told me to do yoga and pilates) and since then I have had not one joint or muscle issue (touch wood)


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## montage (8 Jun 2009)

Jim_Noir said:


> *Up here in Glasgow, and I would think all of the UKs NHS would be the same,* you just go along (for my local hospital it's a Wednesday) an wait for a physio to see you. Sure you could be there all day, but better than waiting months on end. To be honest when I had my ankle issue I found the Physio at the hospital shite... well more the fact she said stop running and stop your training. I then went to a ciropractor and two sessions with her helped (she was the one that told me to do yoga and pilates) and since then I have had not one joint or muscle issue (touch wood)



Not a chance is it the same!!

I have had to go private (get it really cheap though as I am a student  ) - and it is infact a chiropracter... but chiropracter...physio....same old same old


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## Jim_Noir (8 Jun 2009)

montage said:


> Not a chance is it the same!!
> 
> I have had to go private (get it really cheap though as I am a student  ) - and it is infact a chiropracter... but chiropracter...physio....same old same old



I thought a Physio was muscle and a chirpracter was bones... or is it a chiropracter can charge more, for the same!


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## montage (8 Jun 2009)

Jim_Noir said:


> I thought a Physio was muscle and a chirpracter was bones... or is it a chiropracter can charge more, for the same!




No idea, but seeing she knows the business about IT and is part of my cycling club....so it is all good.


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## magnatom (9 Jun 2009)

No a physio bases their work on science and best practice, a chiropractor bases their work on mumbo jumbo and hearsay....


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## Jim_Noir (9 Jun 2009)

Is this why she had raven feathers and nordic runes on my ankle?


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## col (9 Jun 2009)

magnatom said:


> No a physio bases their work on science and best practice, a chiropractor bases their work on mumbo jumbo and hearsay....




You obviously have proof to make that statement?
All these practices have their uses.


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## Dan B (15 Jun 2009)

col said:


> You obviously have proof to make that statement?


Yes, you need cast-iron proof and a deep pocket if you want to say anything about chiropractic that they don't like, otherwise they may sue you for libel

http://www.senseaboutscience.org.uk/index.php/site/project/333/

You may disagree with me, but I think this is pretty crap: if they have a defensible position they should defend it in debate, not try to silence their critics


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## col (15 Jun 2009)

coruskate said:


> Yes, you need cast-iron proof and a deep pocket if you want to say anything about chiropractic that they don't like, otherwise they may sue you for libel
> 
> http://www.senseaboutscience.org.uk/index.php/site/project/333/
> 
> You may disagree with me, but I think this is pretty crap: if they have a defensible position they should defend it in debate, not try to silence their critics




No I agree with you, but if they do have a defensible position, why shouldnt they use the law. its what its for isnt it? After all isnt that what most libel is? someone not liking what others have said?
Just the fact that they can sue shows they do have a defence doesnt it?


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## Ashtrayhead (16 Jun 2009)

magnatom said:


> I bet this is a weakness in your Vastus Medialis Obliquus (VMO). I'm no expert, but I had problems with this following knee surgery. If this is the case then it is likely that the physio will have you doing exercises that require short squats, i.e. only bending you leg slightly. It is in this range of movement, that you use your VMO apparently. The VMO is the muscle on the inside front of the thigh that should pull your patella (knee cap) over to the centre
> 
> *Sound like you might have Chondromalacia Patellae*.




I think I had that in an Italian restaurant once!


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## dellzeqq (18 Jun 2009)

kneecaps - pah! Who needs them?

I'm puzzled by the question. During and after the removal of my left kneecap the orthopaedic surgeon recommended cycling - as an alternative to steroid therapy which, it transpired, damaged a lot of children with the same condition (Still's Disease) beyond repair. 

So I'm not sure how critical the alignment of a kneecap is to muscular effort.

*The weight weenies on this forum will doubtless be doing their little sums. About 75gm is my best guess.


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