# Vegetarianism means low sports performance ..... ?



## Crankarm (27 Jun 2010)

Is being vegetarian incompatiable with being a serious athlete? Is one destined to lose out to competitors who are meat eaters as they have a much better source of high protein thus giving them more strength and stamina?

I suggest this as the veggie TdF team sunk without trace.

Also I was veggie for about 11-12 years gave up in 2004-2005 as I was constantly getting injuries and having no energy or explosive power. It is now almost 5 years after eating meat that I have finally regained what I feel is a proper level of power and endurance. Obviously I'm over 15 years older but I don't feel like I am falling apart anymore when trying to do a serious level of sport cycling, running or any other high intensity sport which is most. Though I still don't eat roasts eg beef or steaks .

If you're an average sedantry person your body can easily cope with the physical demands placed on it if you are vegetarian, but once you start high level intense work outs your body needs much more protein but your diet cannot deliver it so you are destined to fail against competitors who eat meat plus a veggie diet simply cannot provide your body iwth sufficient protein to match the increased physical demands you are placing upon it.


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## Ravenbait (27 Jun 2010)

Not at all.

http://www.richroll.com/

He's vegan, never mind vegetarian.

But it doesn't work for everyone. Everyone is different. I think the trick is to find what works for you, and if being vegetarian doesn't work for you, then that doesn't mean there's something wrong with you.

Sam


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## marinyork (27 Jun 2010)

Horizon did a programme on this.


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## Crankarm (27 Jun 2010)

Ravenbait said:


> Not at all.
> 
> http://www.richroll.com/
> 
> ...



Only for 6 months it would appear unless that was race preparation or since commencing the diet?

How many pro sportsmen and woman are veggies?

Cyclists, track and field - sprinters, swimmers, tennis players? Just interested as I feel so much better and stronger now I eat meat.


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## Crankarm (27 Jun 2010)

marinyork said:


> Horizon did a programme on this.



And?

Didn't Horizon get the chop?


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## jimboalee (27 Jun 2010)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serine_protease

If I'm reading this correctly, these are ensymes that break down protien molecules.

The controversial one amongst them is Elastase, the enzyme secreted by the pancreas that breaks down Elastin, or animal connective tissue.

Biologically, to me at least, this proves humans have evolved to eat other animals.


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## JNR (27 Jun 2010)

Lance eats meat!

Here is a list of 'athletes' who are, apparently, vegetarian.

I pulled this off Yahoo Answers so it could be totally rubbish.

Muhammed Ali - Prizefighter
Ruth Heidrich, Three-Time Ironman
Debbie Lawrence, 5k Record Holder
Jim Kaat, Baseball Player
Tony Larussa, Baseball Manager
Hank Aaron, Baseball Player
Bill Pearl, Bodybuilder
Marv Levey, Buffalo Bills Coach
Robert Parnish, Center (Bulls)
Joe Namath, Football Player
Lawrence Phillips, Football Player (49ers)
Steve Bellamy, Founder of the Tennis Channel
Surya Bonaly, French Figure Skater
Brendan Brazier, Ironman Triathlete
Sally Eastall, Marathon Runner
Andreas Cahling, Mr. International Bodybuilder
Carl Lewis, Olympic Track Star
Edwin Moses, Olympic Champion
Leroy Burrell, Olympic Champion
Murray Rose, Olympic Swimmer
Pat Reeves, Power Lifter
Bill Manetti, Powerlifting Champion
Ed Templeton, Pro Skateboarder
Mike Manzoori, Pro Skateboarder
Brian Anderson, Pro Skateboarder
Jamie Thomas, Pro Skateboarder
Forest Kirby, Pro Skateboarder
Brian Sumner, Pro Skateboarder
Andrew Reynolds, Pro Skateboarder
Jen O'brien, Pro Skateboarder
Matt Field, Pro Skateboarder
Chris Lambert, Pro Skateboarder
Brad Staba, Pro Skateboarder
Geoff Rowley, Pro Skateboarder
Rick Mc Crank, Pro Skateboarder
Moses Itkonen, Pro Skateboarder
Sergei Trudnowski, Pro Skateboarder
Laban Pheidas, Proskater
Steve Berra, Proskater
Anastasia Ashley, Surfer
Martina Navratilova, Tennis Player
Bille Jean King, Tennis Champion
Peter Burwash, Tennis Champion
John Salley, Toronto Raptors
Lucy Stephens, Tri-athlete
Stan Price, World Record Bench Press
Killer Kowalski, Wrestler



Some big names there!


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## jimboalee (27 Jun 2010)

Crankarm said:


> And?
> 
> Didn't Horizon get the chop?



Lamb chop or Pork chop?


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## Crankarm (27 Jun 2010)

jimboalee said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serine_protease
> 
> If I'm reading this correctly, these are ensymes that break down protien molecules.
> 
> ...



For sure. So vegetarianism is a lifestyle choice or because in some population groups the availaibility of other animals/protein to eat is low or of poor quality - unless one is Bear Grylls .


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## piedwagtail91 (27 Jun 2010)

i've been vegetarian almost since i was born, (52 now) i've no problems stamina wise or strength wise. I raced and been under the hour and had several placings in road races.
maybe these aren't at the highest level but i don't think i've missed out by being vegetarian.


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## Crankarm (27 Jun 2010)

JNR said:


> Lance eats meat!
> 
> Here is a list of 'athletes' who are, apparently, vegetarian.
> 
> ...



Only ones I recognise afer a quick skim is Mohammad Ali, Carl Lewis, Edwin Moses and Billie Jean King. Were they vegetarian whilst competing?

Does founding the Tennis Channel require tennis skill or any sporting ability for that matter?


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## HLaB (27 Jun 2010)

JNR said:


> Lance eats meat!
> 
> Here is a list of 'athletes' who are, apparently, vegetarian.
> 
> ...


Add Robert Millar, KoM 1984 TdF to that list 

IIRC he was a vegetarian not for ethical reasons but it was better/ more easily processed by his system.


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## JNR (27 Jun 2010)

Absolutely no idea on that I'm afraid. They might not even be actual vegetarians at all, it's just a list of the internetz.


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## Crankarm (27 Jun 2010)

Does any one on here have personal experience of what I ask?


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## Crankarm (27 Jun 2010)

piedwagtail91 said:


> i've been vegetarian almost since i was born, (52 now) i've no problems stamina wise or strength wise. I raced and been under the hour and had several placings in road races.
> maybe these aren't at the highest level but i don't think i've missed out by being vegetarian.




Interesting. How do you deal with making sure you get enough protein? Fish or a lot of eggs?

I must admit I found it a real struggle which in the end became a real chore. I've had placings in road races not at the front though! I don't eat lots and lots of meat but without it I'd feel cream crackered like I used to when a veggie. Perhaps I wasn't eating the right veggie foods. Some times I would feel pretty good out on the bike or out running but invariably I'd end up with an injury or severe lethargy.


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## Ravenbait (27 Jun 2010)

Crankarm said:


> Only for 6 months it would appear unless that was race preparation or since commencing the diet?


Er, no? He has been vegan since 2006. He's an elite endurance triathlete who recently completed 5 Ironman distance triathlons in under a week and is a top placer in the Ultraman event. So he's hardly a hobby sportsman. He's certainly not the only vegan triathlete out there, either.

I'm not saying that it's necessarily better to be vegan or vegetarian, but then it's fairly obvious that it's not a surefire way to ruin an athlete's performance, either. It's a question of the individual biochemistry. I know athletes who prefer to be vegan. I know athletes who not only prefer to be vegan but stick as much as possible to raw foods and it works for them.

If not eating meat doesn't work for you, enjoy your flesh. That doesn't mean that it won't work for others, though.

Sam


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## Will1985 (27 Jun 2010)

Wasn't Wiggins on Linda McCartney just before it folded?


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## Crankarm (27 Jun 2010)

Ravenbait said:


> Er, no? He has been vegan since 2006. He's an elite endurance triathlete who recently completed 5 Ironman distance triathlons in under a week and is a top placer in the Ultraman event. So he's hardly a hobby sportsman. He's certainly not the only vegan triathlete out there, either.
> 
> I'm not saying that it's necessarily better to be vegan or vegetarian, but then it's fairly obvious that it's not a surefire way to ruin an athlete's performance, either. It's a question of the individual biochemistry. I know athletes who prefer to be vegan. I know athletes who not only prefer to be vegan but stick as much as possible to raw foods and it works for them.
> 
> ...



I'm not out to knock vegetarian sportsmen and women who compete at the highest levels. I mean an Iron/Ultra man is as hard as it gets, so the diet might work for them if they genuinely don't eat any meat. I am just curious if there are sportsmen and women who are vegetarian and at the top of their sport such as cycling, athletics or swimmers. Perhaps I needed to do some Googling.

What happened to the vegetarian TdF team? Did it fold for lack of money, politics or they just couldn't keep up? I guess they weren't exposed to the same performance enhancing hormones that the meat eaters were getting ....


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## darkstar (27 Jun 2010)

I think it would be fine so long as they get enough protein through shakes etc.


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## Crankarm (27 Jun 2010)

Will1985 said:


> Wasn't Wiggins on Linda McCartney just before it folded?



Can't remember, well actually, I don't know.


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## Crankarm (27 Jun 2010)

jimboalee said:


> Lamb chop or Pork chop?



Heheheeeee .


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## Ravenbait (27 Jun 2010)

According to the BBC, LM team fell apart because of infighting:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/front_page/4135289.stm

Sam


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## Ravenbait (27 Jun 2010)

Oh, and Robert Millar was vegetarian, apparently.

Sam


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## sarahpink (27 Jun 2010)

i eat mainly a vegetarian diet and get if not more than my daily recommended allowance of protein etc, things like soya protein tofu, *chicken style pieces* lol all have loads of protein some more than what you would think. i cant answe your question in terms of power, stamina etc but a vegetarian diet can still be high in protein. vegans are another story though.


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## piedwagtail91 (27 Jun 2010)

Crankarm said:


> Interesting. How do you deal with making sure you get enough protein? Fish or a lot of eggs?
> 
> I must admit I found it a real struggle which in the end became a real chore. I've had placings in road races not at the front though! I don't eat lots and lots of meat but without it I'd feel cream crackered like I used to when a veggie. Perhaps I wasn't eating the right veggie foods. Some times I would feel pretty good out on the bike or out running but invariably I'd end up with an injury or severe lethargy.



i do eat eggs a few times a week, drink a bit of semi skimmed milk and eat mixed nuts. but mainly i just eat what i fancy, to me food is food i don't divide it up!
I used to have some protein drinks when i was doing more weight training but gave up on them and switched to skimmed milk and eggs which was a lot cheaper. now i don't bother and have changed the way i do weights and done more walking and bike riding to get down from 16 stone (not much fat)to 12 simply to climb better.


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## summerdays (27 Jun 2010)

I know a vegan cyclist who is very good, but he does struggle with his iron levels and every now and again it gets very bad and ends up on a drip.


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## HLaB (27 Jun 2010)

Ravenbait said:


> Oh, and Robert Millar was vegetarian, apparently.
> 
> Sam


Yip; he's interview in the 'highlife' documentary about it. IIRC When he asked he replied 'it wasn't for ethical reasons it just better for his system' 

Bah, youtube has disabled part 1, only part 2 of the documentary is still on the web


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## Riverman (28 Jun 2010)

Here's another good example of a powerful vegan. 







http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB120122116182915297.html

"The 247 lb. Vegan
NFL star Tony Gonzalez is out to answer a question: Can a football player live entirely on plants?"



> There's no evidence a vegan diet can improve an athlete's performance, says David Nieman, a professor of health and exercise at Appalachian State University. His 1988 study of vegetarian runners found they ran as well as their meat-eating rivals but no better. Although the vegetarian athletes in his study also ate eggs and dairy foods, he says, "there is scientific evidence that veganism, when done right, won't hurt performance." But, he adds, there is only


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## automatic_jon (28 Jun 2010)

My flat mate is a vegamatarian, and a bloody fussy one at that. We pool our meagre resources when it comes to food so I persist mainly on vege food day to day, although under duress.

I don't seem to recover as quickly when I'm here as when I'm visiting my folks and eating a more balanced, omnivorous, diet. As for longer term effects I can't comment as this is just my anecdotal experience.


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## Fiona N (28 Jun 2010)

I used to be vegetarian when I was racing in Australia - I didn't eat meat as I'd got out of the habit and then found that even quite small quantities hard to digest so I just carried on not eating it (bit of a bummer for barbies, though). I also didn't eat cheese or drink milk and I'm not exactly a fan of beans and pulses - I just really like fruit and vegetables - and bread. 
The problem was that this 'diet' didn't supply nearly enough protein, (useable) iron or available calcium and I started to get problems with anaemia, especially when training hard. After talking to a dietitian who preferred to modify diet rather than hand out supplements, I started to eat fish once or twice a week and also yoghurt, and increase the number of eggs I ate. Soya milk, preferably with added Ca (although there is low uptake of Ca in this form), I drank by the gallon and I also made my own bread using triticale flour (old, low yield, form of wheat which is higher in protein than modern varieties) with lots of seeds and nuts. Also in Perth, you could get really good fresh tofu and tempeh, so high quality soy protein was easy to include in addition to soya milk.
This solved the problem and I ended up with a well-balanced diet - even the fish became optional - but it does require a bit more effort than the 'meat and 2 veg..' approach.


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## Ravenbait (28 Jun 2010)

I'm following the same sort of diet as Fiona outlined above, but it's relatively recent because of digestive upsets. I just can't digest meat very well at the moment. Prior to this we didn't eat a lot of meat (maybe once every couple of weeks to once a month), and I've been on restricted dairy for more than a year. I can't really comment on how it's affecting my performance because I ruptured the plantar fascia in my right foot during my last race (a biomechanical issue that has nothing to do with diet) and I've been off serious training since then. I will let you know how I get on but I feel, if anything, better than before and my digestion has improved.

It's a question of being careful to balance the various nutrients and, as I said earlier, having a biochemistry that is amenable. I'll reintroduce meat into my diet if and when I feel like I want some, but I'm not going to force myself to eat it if it's not what my body wants.

Sam


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## arallsopp (28 Jun 2010)

IIRC, aperitif of this parish is vegetarian. Its probably why he's got such skinny little legs.


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## montage (28 Jun 2010)

Vegetarianism is cureable dont worry.

Robert Millar was a vegey


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## Riding in Circles (28 Jun 2010)

I could not imagine being veggie or vegan, however I know at least one vegan who cycles huge distances, it has a lot more to it than just not eating meat, there are sources of vegetable protein etc... like any diet you need to find what works. I also know a few fat veggies.


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## Rob3rt (28 Jun 2010)

Catrike UK said:


> I could not imagine being veggie or vegan, however I know at least one vegan who cycles huge distances, it has a lot more to it than just not eating meat, there are sources of vegetable protein etc... like any diet you need to find what works.* I also know a few fat veggies*.



I dont know what your friends are like, but fat veggies is not uncommon, junk food vegans and veggies, who eat vegeratian pasties and cheese savoury sandwiches, pizza's etc end up being tubby quite often.

As I see it, to have a balanced diet as a vegetarian it requires a little more forethought, hence being a bit more work than a meat eating diet. So a lot of people who go veggie fall into the trap of convenient veggie foods, and either end up not so healthy one way or another, whether this be anaemia, or obesity. I tried being vegetarian, I fell into the convenience trap and ended up feeling very tired all the time and being highly unmotivated and had poor mood about 4 months down the line. Queue a return to eating meat and feeling much better.

But you can do it perfectly healthily if you are inclined to do the work!


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## longers (28 Jun 2010)

Interesting thread, I don't buy a lot of meat but do fill my boots if someone else is cooking/offering. I do sometimes get a craving for protein and mix quinoa in when doing a batch of porridge. I think it helps.


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## longers (28 Jun 2010)

arallsopp said:


> IIRC, aperitif of this parish is vegetarian. Its probably why he's got such skinny little legs.



Yes, puny!


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## ColinJ (28 Jun 2010)

I eat a near-vegetarian diet (veggie except for fish once or twice a week) but I started cycling a few years after adopting that diet so I don't know how much difference eating meat would or wouldn't make to me. 

My current lack of cycling fitness is due to too much weight on me and not frequent enough me on the bike. In other years I have been very strong on the bike, with big chunky legs so I don't think lack of meat-eating has been an issue.

I don't intend to start eating meat again to see what difference it makes!


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## ChrisBD (28 Jun 2010)

Bear #### Grylls (like him or not-I'm in the latter camp) eats a predominently veggie diet. While not an athlete per se; Everest, Antarctic etc, still some serious endurance.

Carl Lewis
Bruce Lee

When training for the Polar Challenge I cut out meat as part of a plan to change body composition. I drew my "bulk" protein from sea food, whey and egg whites.

Did I perform better without meat? I've no idea, but by cutting heavy foods including white pasta and rice, spuds and breads - as well as meat, I was able to reach my fitness (composition) and endurance goals quickly while building a clean "system".


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## ShinSplint (29 Jun 2010)

Personal experience...

I've been veggie most of my life, no red meat or chicken since age of 8. At the age of 30 its only been the last 4-5 years when i've been into sport - started with running, and now a very keen cyclist.

I decided to give up running when injuries, hence name, took over. I believe this was down to overtraining for a specific event, but I wouldnt rule out the possibility of lack of protein - at the time I wasn't eating enough protein foods, and I didn't use protein shakes for muscle recovery, I do now and find it helps a lot with my cycling.

I'm finding that I can progress quickly with cycling, providing I get enough protein, so I have a protein shake after a hard ride, drink a fair amount of milk, and make sure most meals have a decent amount of protein. I also eat fish which I would never give up. Seems to work for me.

I have found though, if I have a particularly hard training session, say 4-6 hours with LOTS of hard climbing and sprinting, it can take a few days to fully recover - maybe the recovery process would be quicker if I ate meat.

I'm about to buy my next tub of protein. This time im going to try a weight gain type with carbs as well as protein - two reasons - i've been losing too much weight due to some long sessions, and i've also been told that carbs are also very important after a workout.

The only real way I would find out of meat helps would be to start eating it again, but im happy as I am so i'll stick to my veggie diet.

Hope that helps.


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## theclaud (29 Jun 2010)

Let's settle this thread with a race between Crankarm and Aperitif...


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## Crankarm (29 Jun 2010)

ShinSplint said:


> Personal experience...
> 
> I've been veggie most of my life, no red meat or chicken since age of 8. At the age of 30 its only been the last 4-5 years when i've been into sport - started with running, and now a very keen cyclist.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your post very interesting. You've summed up very succinctly my thoughts as well. Except I started eating meat, not lots, but enough say 4/5 times a week and have to say I feel a whole lot better.

Thanks to every one else for contributing to the thread.


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## Sheffield_Tiger (30 Jun 2010)

Haven't eaten meat for 21 years but I still manage to put lard round my middle! 

On the topic however, I agree with points made about convenience diets being quite unhealthy perhaps even more so if veggie or vegan - there are a lot of tasty treats out there these days that are pretty unhealthy despite their being sold in "health food" shops.

HOWEVER..

My prompt to exercise was an experiment with raw-food-ism last August-ish and I do need to try to go back to being part-raw because I suddenly had all this energy that came seemingly from nowhere. I WANTED to burn off some energy instead of having to motivate myself

It might not sound like conventional wisdom but for me it worked. Perhaps it was just encouraging my body to do something with it's stores built up over the years, and maybe it would be a very bad thing for someone who didn't carry around fuel surplus around their midriff.


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## theclaud (1 Jul 2010)

Crankarm said:


> Thanks for your post very interesting. You've summed up very succinctly my thoughts as well. Except I started eating meat, not lots, but enough say 4/5 times a week and have to say I feel a whole lot better.
> 
> Thanks to every one else for contributing to the thread.



Not up for the race then, Crankers?


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