# Canti's vs Mini V's?



## euanc (16 Mar 2013)

I have been looking at getting a CX bike (not for racing, just casual road/offroad use) and although I would prefer discs as I come from a MTB background my budget might not stretch to them.

I have read that canti's are pretty poor, especially in the wet so are Mini V's any better? Why do people seem to not recommend them for racing, is it because they have less mud clearance?

Thanks in advance!


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## RecordAceFromNew (16 Mar 2013)

There is quite a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding regarding cantis/mini-Vs around based more on heresay than science imho. I might write an article on the subject in Knowhow some day if I get round to it.

In the meantime assuming you are using drop bar road levers if I were you I would avoid Mini-Vs if the model's cable attachment on the arm to pivot is more than 2x the distance between pads and pivot. If you are getting cantis I would suggest picking ones with a wide frog leg profile (i.e. like those on Helen Wyman's bikes below). It is essentially about matching mechanical advantage of brakes and levers within an optimal zone of power vs pad clearance, and assuming that is sorted, cabling is good and wheels are true, wet performance is then down to choice of pads and rim surface condition.

Hope it helps.


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## Si_ (16 Mar 2013)

get a frame with disc mounts and you can always run avid bb5 road calipers later on as an upgrade. ...my set were forty quid off ebay. Already had the wheels so no biggy. Discs really are not as expensive nowadays as they once were.


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## SpokeyDokey (16 Mar 2013)

In my experience Canti's are prone to shudder which is a PITA.

I have TRP CX9's Mini V's on my Giant and they are superb. I too was used to MTB disc brakes and was worried about rim brakes. The TRP's have as much stopping power as you will ever need.

The CX9's are designed to be used with Shimano drop bar brifters. The CX8.4's which are similar are for SRAM/Campy I believe.

The CX9's come with road cartrdiges - mine squealed but the fix is to change them for assymetric V brake cartridges.

They look gorgeous too - a number of people have commented on how great they look

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=t...HK4AT064CIDg&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAQ&biw=1241&bih=595


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## RecordAceFromNew (16 Mar 2013)

SpokeyDokey said:


> I have TRP CX9's Mini V's on my Giant and they are superb. I too was used to MTB disc brakes and was worried about rim brakes. The TRP's have as much stopping power as you will ever need.
> 
> The CX9's are designed to be used with Shimano drop bar brifters. The CX8.4's which are similar are for SRAM/Campy I believe.


 
With 90mm long arms they will have a mechanical advantage (MA) of more than 3. Combined with typical drop bar levers MA of 4+, those brakes will have to be set up with tight rim to pad clearance, and therefore perfectly true wheels or else levers will bottom out hitting the bars before the pads bite. It is so because for every inch of pull at your levers the pads will move towards each other by only 2mm - that is assuming there is no play or cable housing compression at all within the system (which of course is never true). But sure if set up like that successfully they will be powerful - those brakes' MA is not far from conventional V brakes which have ~100mm arms and MA of 4.



SpokeyDokey said:


> In my experience Canti's are prone to *shudder* which is a PITA.


 
That is usually caused by flexi brake cable hanger and/or forks/steerer, which don't come into play the same way to cause judder with V brakes, mini or otherwise.


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## SpokeyDokey (16 Mar 2013)

RecordAceFromNew said:


> With 90mm long arms they will have a mechanical advantage (MA) of more than 3. Combined with typical drop bar levers MA of 4+, those brakes will have to be set up with tight rim to pad clearance, and therefore perfectly true wheels or else levers will bottom out hitting the bars before the pads bite. It is so because for every inch of pull at your levers the pads will move towards each other by only 2mm - that is assuming there is no play or cable housing compression at all within the system (which of course is never true). But sure if set up like that successfully they will be powerful - those brakes' MA is not far from conventional V brakes which have ~100mm arms and MA of 4.
> 
> 
> 
> That is usually caused by flexi brake cable hanger and/or forks/steerer, which don't come into play the same way to cause judder with V brakes, mini or otherwise.


 
Yes the clearance is tight. I have the pads set about 2mm (maybe a tad closer but had to see) off the rim either side. Wheels are true and do not rub. I have Shimano 105 brifters and they are full on at around 60% of the lever stroke.

My worry about them esp' with the bigger surface area Ashima V brake cartridges was that they would be grabby. Fortunately they are not and work very smoothly. Really impressed with them and they are a doddle to set up.


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## RecordAceFromNew (17 Mar 2013)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Yes the clearance is tight. I have the pads set about 2mm (maybe a tad closer but had to see) off the rim either side. Wheels are true and do not rub. I have Shimano 105 brifters and they are full on at around 60% of the lever stroke.


 
For those brakes and for those levers, if there is indeed 2mm of pad clearance each side, it will require 2 inches of lever travel before the pads can even touch the rim. While powerful, the consequence of its characteristic is likely to include: a) compressionless housing preferred if not required, b) frequent adjustment necessary as pads wear, c) relatively draggy in muddy condition. It is not my intention to knock them, but you found it a doddle to set up probably only because your bike is in tip top condition - based on its geometry, this seems a fair and comprehensive review to me.


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## SpokeyDokey (17 Mar 2013)

RecordAceFromNew said:


> For those brakes and for those levers, if there is indeed 2mm of pad clearance each side, it will require 2 inches of lever travel before the pads can even touch the rim. While powerful, the consequence of its characteristic is likely to include: a) compressionless housing preferred if not required, b) frequent adjustment necessary as pads wear, c) relatively draggy in muddy condition. I have no intention to knock them, but you found it a doddle to set up probably only because your bike is in tip top condition - based on its geometry, this seems a fair and comprehensive review to me.


 
I can get a credit card (old Nectar points card in truth) in either side without too much effort. Pads are set flat as they don't need any toe. Pads hit rims with about 1" lever pull (at the tip) on the front and a quarter inch further at the rear. Neither are squidgy.

Yes I've read that review. Does seem fair although I did not have any hassle with the rear brake setting as the author has. I can't get my levers anywhere near my drops even with a hard pull.

Nice brakes do the job. Maybe not for someone who races - I just use my bike on the road (wuss!).


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## Howard (18 Mar 2013)

It may be that the CX9s are designed to be used with the new shimano brifters which pull more cable than previous versions and so have less mechanical advantage, all things equal.

As I understand it, anyway.


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## euanc (19 Mar 2013)

Thanks for the info, I shall keep it all in mind! I'm looking to buy a complete bike as it will be cheaper than building one up from scratch and completes with discs seem to go for more than rim brakes.


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## SpokeyDokey (6 Apr 2013)

Howard said:


> It may be that the CX9s are designed to be used with the new shimano brifters which pull more cable than previous versions and so have less mechanical advantage, all things equal.
> 
> As I understand it, anyway.


 
Only just read this and yes, you are right, they are designed for the newer shifters.

I altered my cable run for the rear brake yesterday as the LBS had not done a very good job (cable exited the interrupters too sharply) and they felt a bit 'sticky'.

For whatever reason, now I have adjusted them, they are now on full at exactly the same point as the fronts.

So both are full on (pulling hard) with about 1" lever movement at the tip - and they have a long way to go before they would touch the bars.

I have got the newer TRP adjustable noodles too so brake wear is easy to compensate for.


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## Eljay76 (15 Apr 2013)

euanc said:


> I have read that canti's are pretty poor, especially in the wet so are Mini V's any better?


 
I got my CX bike from a retired pro cyclist who was in the Tour de France and was the world champion in cyclo-cross racing three times. He has a bike shop now. I asked him if I could get Mini-V brakes but he just ignored my request, saying that Cantis are better. Who wants to argue with a world champion? Having said that, I only use my CX bike as a road bike with road tires and I wasn't too pleased with the Canti brakes so I switched to Mini-V brakes( Tektro RX5) at the end with SwissStop brake pads. I would say that my bike feels like I have disc brakes now. Cantis are probably better if you do actual cyclo-cross racing on muddy roads but if you mainly ride on the street, Mini-Vs are better from my experience.
The only down-side is that I don't really dare to go to that bike shop anymore because I feel a bit embarrassed to show up with my Mini-V brakes


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## Alun (16 Apr 2013)

+1. Sounds like he just couldn't be bothered.
I have RX5s and swissstops, but find there isn't enough clearance to "flip" the arms wide open when changing a wheel, as the pads catch on the fork/seatstay. Do you have that trouble? I only ride on roads and gravel paths as well.


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## Eljay76 (16 Apr 2013)

Alun said:


> +1. Sounds like he just couldn't be bothered.


 Hehe, you're right, he's this 75 year old retired pro cyclist who probably has been using Cantis since the 50's.


Alun said:


> I have RX5s and swissstops, but find there isn't enough clearance to "flip" the arms wide open when changing a wheel, as the pads catch on the fork/seatstay. Do you have that trouble? I only ride on roads and gravel paths as well.


What I do is let the air out completely before I remove the wheel and then I always manage to squeeze it through but I do it gently.


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## SpokeyDokey (16 Apr 2013)

Alun said:


> +1. Sounds like he just couldn't be bothered.
> I have RX5s and swissstops, but find there isn't enough clearance to "flip" the arms wide open when changing a wheel, as the pads catch on the fork/seatstay. Do you have that trouble? I only ride on roads and gravel paths as well.


 
Have you got more than one washer on the pad side of the arm? If you have, could you remove one and still meet cable set up criteria?


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## Alun (16 Apr 2013)

Eljay76 said:


> What I do is let the air out completely before I remove the wheel and then I always manage to squeeze it through but I do it gently.


I have to do that with my 35mm (actually 32mm) tyres, but it's a faff, I'm back to using 28mm tyres which just squeeze through, esp when toeing in the pads steals a couple more mm.


SpokeyDokey said:


> Have you got more than one washer on the pad side of the arm? If you have, could you remove one and still meet cable set up criteria?


 It's the pads which catch on the forks/seatstays and prevent the arms "flipping" wide open, so unfortunately washers wouldn't alter that.


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## SpokeyDokey (17 Apr 2013)

Alun said:


> I have to do that with my 35mm (actually 32mm) tyres, but it's a faff, I'm back to using 28mm tyres which just squeeze through, esp when toeing in the pads steals a couple more mm.
> It's the pads which catch on the forks/seatstays and prevent the arms "flipping" wide open, so unfortunately washers wouldn't alter that.


 
Ignore me - dopey moment!


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## Eljay76 (17 Apr 2013)

Alun said:


> I have to do that with my 35mm (actually 32mm) tyres, but it's a faff, I'm back to using 28mm tyres which just squeeze through, esp when toeing in the pads steals a couple more mm..


 
Actually I have 28s. I do it gently but they go thru rather quick, so it's not a big hassle to get my wheel off.


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## Moss (25 Apr 2013)

4ZA Mini V's with Ultegra Levers on my Ridley X-Ride. There is quite a bit of lever travel when braking on the drops! But when braking while hands are positioned on the hoods, the travel is a lot less; and the bite reaction is quicker.


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## SpokeyDokey (25 Apr 2013)

Moss said:


> 4ZA Mini V's with Ultegra Levers on my Ridley X-Ride. There is quite a bit of lever travel when braking on the drops! But when braking while hands are positioned on the hoods, the travel is a lot less; and the bite reaction is quicker.


 
That's a nice bike you have there. I quite fancied one myself (my LBS stocks them) but was advised that they are slightly racier than my Giant TCX1.

That fork on The Ride is a beast!


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## Moss (26 Apr 2013)

SpokeyDokey said:


> That's a nice bike you have there. I quite fancied one myself (my LBS stocks them) but was advised that they are slightly racier than my Giant TCX1.
> 
> That fork on The Ride is a beast!


 
The X-ride is Alloy framed Tripple Butted and the forks are carbon; it's reputed to be the lightest alluminium cyclo cross bike in the world? According to Ridley! Must say though - it's lighter than some full carbon bikes I've ridden. Only use mine occasionally; and only on the road.


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## Alexis Holwell (1 Jun 2013)

I've been running with the cheap standard cantilever brakes on my Giant since last November and i've never had any faith in them especially during the wet. I only use the bike on the road as a commuter. I did upgrade my pads to Koolstops which did make a big difference but even still, going down any incline in the wet necessitated me keeping the brakes pretty much full on to guarantee I could stop at the bottom.

Finally bit the bullet and installed some CX9 Mini V's yesterday. I'm pretty much a beginner when it comes to bike maintenance (learning all the time) so it did take me a good couple of hours to get them installed and set up. Took them for a quick spin round the block yesterday and for a ride this morning and the difference is spectacular. There's so much more power with these brakes. Only time will tell once I ride them i the wet if they were worthy of the £82 I paid for them though.


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## SpokeyDokey (1 Jun 2013)

Nice one Alexis!

Quite easy to install as you say - not much to it really.

Mine are great in the wet although I never did get to try the TRP road cartridges in the rain - I use these:

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/ashima-v-brake-4-function-brake-shoes/

Apart from being totally silent they need zero toe-in which makes for an easy life setting up.


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## Sillyoldman (2 Jun 2013)

I considered mini v's for my cross check but decided to go for Avid Shorty Ultimates with Swiss Stop Flash Pro green pads. I really like the simple old school look and they don't half work effectively. No squeal or judder. I have then set up on the narrow angle power setting and set them up so I can flip them open when I need to drop the wheels off. Very pleased.


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## VamP (2 Jun 2013)

Sillyoldman said:


> I considered mini v's for my cross check but decided to go for Avid Shorty Ultimates with Swiss Stop Flash Pro green pads. I really like the simple old school look and they don't half work effectively. No squeal or judder. I have then set up on the narrow angle power setting and set them up so I can flip them open when I need to drop the wheels off. Very pleased.


 

These are great. I have them on both my cross bikes. They are, however, nearly twice the price of the mini Vs discussed herein.


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## Sillyoldman (2 Jun 2013)

good point well made


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## RolandsuperX (4 Aug 2013)

Using TRP CX8.4s with ultegra 6700 levers and the stopping powers enough to lock either wheel, the CX8.4s give slightly better rim clearence than the CX9`s...

btw, wheel removal is simple ( mavic ksyriums with 35mm panaracer cinder cross )


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