# Does the bike brand matter?



## Anonymous1502 (1 Jul 2020)

Are bikes that cost similar amounts are pretty much the same even if they are different brands? If not what brands are good and which ones aren't in your opinion?


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## raleighnut (1 Jul 2020)

Anonymous1502 said:


> Are bikes that cost similar amounts are pretty much the same even if they are different brands? If not what brands are good and which ones aren't in your opinion?


Aye they're all pretty much the same crap knocked up in East Asia.


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## Cycleops (1 Jul 2020)

Not only are they pretty much the same they could even actually be the same with a different paint job and a few other twists. Giant makes for a lot of major brands so similar bikes could have come from the same factory. Other producers do the same. 
A German compan may make a lot out of being a European brand but the bikes will likely be completely made in the Far East or just assembled in Germany from parts made there.


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## vickster (1 Jul 2020)

Anonymous1502 said:


> Are bikes that cost similar amounts are pretty much the same even if they are different brands?


Yes. But it comes down to geometry and the colour you like!


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## Anonymous1502 (1 Jul 2020)

vickster said:


> Yes. But it comes down to geometry and the colour you like!


What exactly is bike geometry? I hope this is not a stupid question


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## vickster (1 Jul 2020)

Anonymous1502 said:


> What exactly is bike geometry? I hope this is not a stupid question


Google is your friend. The angles of the frame etc that make it more aggressive a position to ride (head low down) or less so (more upright). Sometimes referred to as sporty/race vs relaxed/endurance


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## Gunk (1 Jul 2020)

There are only a handful of factories in Taiwan manufacturing frames so your Specialized Allez may well be made on the same production line as your Triban.


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## Drago (1 Jul 2020)

...or the same production line as your new Bianchi.


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## Gunk (1 Jul 2020)

Drago said:


> ...or the same production line as your new Bianchi.



Very true


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## Brandane (1 Jul 2020)

I am assuming that the OP is going to university in Edinburgh to do a PhD in cycling trivia? 
Anyway, to answer the question; Genesis bikes are the best. No, wait. Specialized are. Hold on, no, it's Trek, yeh, Trek are great. But then, so are Ridgeback, I forgot about them. Silly me, forget all that, Merida, yes Merida; they are the dogs B's.. Actually all those mentioned are great bikes, as are most others. Anything above BSO rating are good in their own way.


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## Brandane (1 Jul 2020)

Anonymous1502 said:


> What exactly is bike geometry?


The angles inside the triangle formed by the seat tube, seat stays, and chain stays will add up to 180 degrees. 
Not bad considering the last time I looked at a maths exam was 1978 .


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## gunja99 (1 Jul 2020)

I think this is a great question and as being relatively new to cycling good to see the answers. Speaking with friends there doesn't seem to be a bad brand or so and some recommended Boardman, Evans and decathlon home brands which surprised me tbh!

Seems snobbery in cycling wasn't there as I expected, or is that reserved just to the lightness of your brake pads and spokes etc hah (that is tounge in cheek to some extent!)


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## raleighnut (1 Jul 2020)

gunja99 said:


> I think this is a great question and as being relatively new to cycling good to see the answers. Speaking with friends there doesn't seem to be a bad brand or so and some recommended Boardman, Evans and decathlon home brands which surprised me tbh!
> 
> Seems snobbery in cycling wasn't there as I expected, or is that reserved just to the lightness of your brake pads and spokes etc hah (that is tounge in cheek to some extent!)


Nah some of us are very snobbish, I for instance wouldn't ride a Carbon framed bike but then I realise not everyone can afford a quality steel framed bike made by craftsmen.


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## Shreds (1 Jul 2020)

Bike frames have always been subject to being badged up for other brands, even back in the day when we used to have lots of frame builders in this country. 

Relatively few remain and are generally well respected. Mercian etc. The rest are just branded stickers. 

The extra money you pay for a true custom build is undoubtedly worth it in the long term but not if you always want ‘this years fashion colour or promoted name’. But you will then never experience the pleasure of riding a bike that goes on and on and lasts a lifetime.

Sadly we live in a disposable age and so many bikes end up rotting away in the shed or garage once the initial enthusiasm wanes. (Probably because the bike is too heavy or goes wrong).

Knowing how to mend the bike yourself is vital both on the road and back at base too!


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## CanucksTraveller (2 Jul 2020)

As an aside, I've worked out that over 17% of new threads on Cycle Chat in the last week have been started by Anonymous 1502. Make of that what you may. 😄


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## Blue Hills (2 Jul 2020)

Drago said:


> ...or the same production line as your new Bianchi.


Well remember being in an italian bike shop a few years ago and asking where a mid-price bianchi was made. Was told the entire thing was made in italy. Like hell!


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## Drago (2 Jul 2020)

Personally I'm not bothered where the frames are made, so long as they're decent bits of kit and no one is being exploited. My Felt had a Made in the Sticker on it, but the frame was made by Kinesis in the Far Eat I'm I'm pretty sure that very little was ever bolted together Stateside.

But I do wonder why folk buy bikes from Colnago, Bianchi etc and then rattle on about their Italian heritage, etc. My toe nail clippings have about as much claim to be Italian. By and large they're just brand names rather than genuine brands - such as Genesis, plucked out of thin air by Madison - and that's not necessarily a bad thing at all, but buyers should be wary of believing their own guff.


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## vickster (2 Jul 2020)

gunja99 said:


> I think this is a great question and as being relatively new to cycling good to see the answers. Speaking with friends there doesn't seem to be a bad brand or so and some recommended Boardman, Evans and decathlon home brands which surprised me tbh!
> 
> Seems snobbery in cycling wasn't there as I expected, or is that reserved just to the lightness of your brake pads and spokes etc hah (that is tounge in cheek to some extent!)


It might be tongue in cheek but it’s also real, check out weightweenies!
https://weightweenies.starbike.com/


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## Blue Hills (2 Jul 2020)

Drago said:


> But I do wonder why folk buy bikes from Colnago, Bianchi etc and then rattle on about their Italian heritage, etc. My toe nail clippings have about as much claim to be Italian. By and large they're just brand names rather than genuine brands - such as Genesis, plucked out of thin air by Madison - and that's not necessarily a bad thing at all, but buyers should be wary of believing their own guff.


May have changed but the last thing i knew bianchi was owned by some swedish conglomerate. Wandered onto a bianchi stand awash with italian flags and colours at a london bike show and was assured that the head of this conglomerate had some italian blood on one side of his family. Probably loves tomatoes as well?
Genesis i have good impressions of as they are from the same family as ridgeback, which i rate.


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## Cycleops (2 Jul 2020)

Drago said:


> But I do wonder why folk buy bikes from Colnago, Bianchi etc and then rattle on about their Italian heritage, etc.


it is still the heritage though that attracts people innit. A Ferrari might be a Fiat but It’s still a Ferrari.


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## Oxo (2 Jul 2020)

If it's not red it's a Fiat.


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## RoadRider400 (2 Jul 2020)

I dont think it makes much difference. Cycling seems to have lots of brand snobs with plenty of disposable income. This allows companies to charge way OTT for things with their name on. Clothing is probably even worse for excessive pricing than the actual bikes.


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## avecReynolds531 (2 Jul 2020)

There's an excellent article at The Inner Ring website about this: https://inrng.com/who-makes-what/


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## Drago (2 Jul 2020)

Cycleops said:


> it is still the heritage though that attracts people innit. A Ferrari might be a Fiat but It’s still a Ferrari.


The difference being that Ferraris are made in Italy by Italian people, who cry tears of Italian joy as their latest masterpiece rolls out of the Italian factory and on to the roads of Modena, in Italy.

Its possibly that someone in the Taiwanese factory where the Bianchi frames were made once ate ravioli, or possibly saw a broken down Fiat at the roadside, but that's as close to Italy as that product ever got.


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## Algarvecycling (2 Jul 2020)

It largely depends upon the Brand and even the hierarchy of the model within the Brands line. Many bikes are identical with different labels, it's true. 

Yes, the Far East has the factories in which most bikes are made but the original design, research and finish for the top, better Brands is done by the Brands themselves in many cases. Trek for example make the Madone, their flagship, at their Wisconsin base from scratch but farm out the rest but to their exact specifications. Some of the major Brands finish the higher end flagships that are returned to them from the factories but the bikes are to their design etc. It is not always a case of going to a Taiwanese factory and finding Mr Chen putting Bianchi stickers on one bike and Colnago on another from the same frame production line. Anyone who has ridden a Venge, Propel, Madone etc can see and feel that the bikes are different, that their geometry is not the same and that the research and design is different.


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## wafter (2 Jul 2020)

As others have said the defacto condition is that the vast majority of frames come from the far east; typically the better end from Taiwan and the cheaper stuff China. Some manufacturing concerns are owned by the actual brands, many are independent and manufacture under contract / commission. The brands' input ranging anywhere from designing the frame from the ground up and speccing every detail to selecting a pre-designed frame off the shelf and slapping thier branding on it.

Brands may well select different manufacturing facilities for different quality products at different price points, so just because a company's top-end stuff is fantastic doesn't mean this can be applied to its mid or entry-level bikes, and vice-versa. Same with date of manufacture too; just because last year's model X is great doesn't mean this year's will be too.

Like most consumer product markets the bike world is run on bullshit - the marketing man is king and perception reigns supreme over substance. Many, many bikes are sold off the back of utterly false, misleading, nebulous claims about their facets (country of manufacture being one amongst many). Most "reviewers" will have an agenda that renders them far from objective, so beware when buying.

Be very cautious of any brands owned by investment groups / vulture capitalists - their MO is usually to slash production costs and inflate prices; continuing to sell increasingly sub-par products to unwary consumers off the back of misplaced brand loyalty / faith and more marketing rubbish.

Be aware that as the world's economies continue to circle the drain and wealth disparity grows, manufacturers are increasingly desperate to exploit the filthy rich, with eye-wateringly expensive products that offer very little value in terms of cost of production versus retail price.

While conceptually the bike has changed little in a hundred years brands increasingly rely on fabricating change and arbirtrary performance goals while shortening product life to keep consumers buying - so be aware that "the next big thing" might not be the revelation it was sold to you as, the real-world difference performance between old and new / cheap and expensive bikes is often far less than implied, and that new tech often hides many disadvantages behind the benefits it claims to bring.

Despite liberal coatings of marketing rubbish product quality control (especially on composite frames) seems to leave a lot ot be desired, but unless you're buying right at the top end of the market from one of the few who actually manufacturer in-house you're unlikely to be able to identify which these are or how to avoid them.

Basically, just like most other walks of life nothing's as it seems, most people are out to screw you for their own personal gain and it pays to trust nobody, do your own research and come to your own conclusions.

Personally I find all of this hugely stressful / demoralising so seek to minimise my exposure to this crappy state of affairs by buying a bike that should last me a lifetime - A glorious steel ride from British company Genesis; made from thoroughly British Reynolds steel tube (and manufactured in Taiwan for a brand that's owned by the dubious-sounding "H Young Holdings" ).

Basically unless you're paying thousands for a custom-build by a local bloke in a shed you're unlikely to ever know much about the origins of your frame, the people who made it, the ethics involved, the manufacturing standards adhered to, the value for money you've received or whose pockets your lining...


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## gunja99 (2 Jul 2020)

RoadRider400 said:


> I dont think it makes much difference. Cycling seems to have lots of brand snobs with plenty of disposable income. This allows companies to charge way OTT for things with their name on. Clothing is probably even worse for excessive pricing than the actual bikes.


I am amazed at the cost of jerseys, etc. And being new to cycling using my running gear for now (including shorts, and amazingly no bottom issues even with 3 hours on the saddle yet!). I would like a jersey for no reason other than having a back pocket, but holding out, and just couldn't believe the prices of most (not just some!)


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## Mo1959 (2 Jul 2020)

As much as I like my Specialized bikes, I would be the first to admit that they are overpriced compared to similar specs on other brands. Mine were bought at the end of the year when they were getting reduced prior to the next years bikes coming out. At least the price is a bit more comparable then.


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## wafter (2 Jul 2020)

RoadRider400 said:


> I dont think it makes much difference. Cycling seems to have lots of brand snobs with plenty of disposable income. This allows companies to charge way OTT for things with their name on. Clothing is probably even worse for excessive pricing than the actual bikes.


Indeed; that's the clothing world all over though isn't it? The extreme end of a model that sees dirt-cheap products made with borderline slave labour in emerging markets and sold at obscene margins while using the totally manufactured, false construct of "fashion" to drive consumption, and turnover through implied obsolescence.



Mo1959 said:


> As much as I like my Specialized bikes, I would be the first to admit that they are overpriced compared to similar specs on other brands. Mine were bought at the end of the year when they were getting reduced prior to the next years bikes coming out. At least the price is a bit more comparable then.


Indeed.. seem to have a bit of a (typically yank) hard-edged, litigeous corporate nature too, which made them an easy one for me to discount personally when I was looking for a new bike.


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## Algarvecycling (2 Jul 2020)

This Article provides a reasonably good explanation: 

https://www.cyclist.co.uk/in-depth/1252/viva-italia-inside-wilier


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## PaulSB (2 Jul 2020)

CanucksTraveller said:


> As an aside, I've worked out that over 17% of new threads on Cycle Chat in the last week have been started by Anonymous 1502. Make of that what you may. 😄



Well there are two possibilities:

1. As a newcomer to CC and, I think, to cycling he's enthusiastic and embracing our sport.

2. You have too much time on your hands. 

😄😄


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## PaulSB (2 Jul 2020)

Back to the question, yes I do feel brand or make matters. The two best bikes I've owned are my Cervelo and Dolan. I would go back to both without hesitation. Where the frame was made etc. is irrelevant it's the overall quality of the bike which counts.


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## Moodyman (2 Jul 2020)

All of the above applies to bike frames. Add in the components attached to that frame and it becomes even more globalised.

I recall a thread while back about British cycling brands and think the conclusion was only Carradice could be deemed truly British. They used UK sourced bits like cotton duck 'n leather and assembled them in Lancs


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## raleighnut (2 Jul 2020)

gunja99 said:


> I am amazed at the cost of jerseys, etc. And being new to cycling using my running gear for now (including shorts, and amazingly no bottom issues even with 3 hours on the saddle yet!). I would like a jersey for no reason other than having a back pocket, but holding out, and just couldn't believe the prices of most (not just some!)


Check out Altura for Jerseys/Jackets etc. good quality and reasonable prices.


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## Ming the Merciless (2 Jul 2020)

Brandane said:


> The angles inside the triangle formed by the seat tube, seat stays, and chain stays will add up to 180 degrees.
> Not bad considering the last time I looked at a maths exam was 1978 .



They don’t study maths at school anymore, hence the OPs question about geometry.


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## Moon bunny (2 Jul 2020)

Drago said:


> Personally I'm not bothered where the frames are made, so long as they're decent bits of kit and no one is being exploited. My Felt had a Made in the Sticker on it, but the frame was made by Kinesis in the Far Eat I'm I'm pretty sure that very little was ever bolted together Stateside.
> 
> But I do wonder why folk buy bikes from Colnago, Bianchi etc and then rattle on about their Italian heritage, etc. My toe nail clippings have about as much claim to be Italian. By and large they're just brand names rather than genuine brands - such as Genesis, plucked out of thin air by Madison - and that's not necessarily a bad thing at all, but buyers should be wary of believing their own guff.


What is so good about “Italian heritage” anyway? It. Is not as if they invented the bicycle, do people believe Michelangelo had a hand in designing their color schemes?


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## avecReynolds531 (2 Jul 2020)

Anonymous1502 said:


> If not what brands are good and which ones aren't in your opinion?


Yes, I think the manufacturer is important: are their products good value? Does their wealth & marketing budget mean they receive more exposure than others? How do they treat their workers, subcontractors & fellow manufacturers/ competitors?
One example: https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/sinyard-takes-responsibility-and-apologises-to-cafe-roubaix-owner/

Why a company think they can trademark the name of a place is another question

Also, Greg Lemond received a settlement agreement from another big cycling company.

For some people, where the frame is made isn't relevant: some of us might want to support smaller or local companies: (steel) frames _built in the UK _don't have to be eye watering in price: Bob Jackson off the peg models, Steve Goff in Skelmersdale...

We choose who to support with our buying & we can choose whether this is important or not too


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## Fab Foodie (2 Jul 2020)

Moon bunny said:


> What is so good about “Italian heritage” anyway? It. Is not as if they invented the bicycle, do people believe Michelangelo had a hand in designing their color schemes?


These days of modern CAD aided design and manufacture, nothing at all.
But in the history of cycle racing when these things were much more hand-made and designed by experience the Italians were probably leaders (with France probably coming second) in bicycle frame building, artwork/finish and component design, in fact most things cycling; Campagnolo, Pinarello, Colnago, Bianchi, De Rosa etc. Not to mention clothing companies....
These things still make some of us drool just a little bit.


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## rogerzilla (2 Jul 2020)

What would you rather ride? A carbon bike with Bianchi on the downtube or with Boardman on the downtube? The bikes will probably perform identically once adjusted to fit you.

95% of cyclists would probably take the Bianchi if they could afford it. As has been said elsewhere, "if value for money were the only thing that mattered, we'd all drive Hyundais".


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## Cycleops (2 Jul 2020)

rogerzilla said:


> 95% of cyclists would probably take the Bianchi if they could afford it. As has been said elsewhere, "if value for money were the only thing that mattered, we'd all drive Hyundais".


......and buy our bikes in Decathlon.


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## Ian H (2 Jul 2020)

Some bikes handle better/are more comfortable than others, which is down to the knowledge and skill of the frame designer. It's a combination of getting the frame geometry right for a particular size of frame, and the quality of construction.


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## wafter (2 Jul 2020)

rogerzilla said:


> As has been said elsewhere, "if value for money were the only thing that mattered, we'd all drive Hyundais Hondas".


Fixed that for you 



Cycleops said:


> ......and buy our bikes in Decathlon.


I'd disagree with that to an extent; while the Decathlon stuff is doubles great value, getting good value doesn't necessarily have to mean cheap (although I freely admit that a lot of the "higher-end" offerings appear to offer abysmal value).


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## RoadRider400 (2 Jul 2020)

gunja99 said:


> I am amazed at the cost of jerseys, etc. And being new to cycling using my running gear for now (including shorts, and amazingly no bottom issues even with 3 hours on the saddle yet!). I would like a jersey for no reason other than having a back pocket, but holding out, and just couldn't believe the prices of most (not just some!)


Check out didoo on Ebay. I am pleased with mine, its a slightly looser fit so possibly not the sort of thing if you want fully skin tight.


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## gunja99 (2 Jul 2020)

RoadRider400 said:


> Check out didoo on Ebay. I am pleased with mine, its a slightly looser fit so possibly not the sort of thing if you want fully skin tight.


I dont have the body for "skin tight", so no worries there. 

Rode with a running water proof the other week that flapped everywhere, so will need to bite the bullet soon!


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## Gravity Aided (2 Jul 2020)

I think as well that most frames are made by Giant and maeda and a few other makers in Asia. Some makers have a great deal of quality control because they have representatives who enforce quality and acceptance limits for them. O thers may not be so strict. Look at Specialized. I think they have always contracted their frame builds, yet their product is excellent. Others, not so much. I saw a frame at the co-op with such undercutting on the welds that we sent the frame for recycling then and there. Even though I had seen the fellow who owned it commute to work on it for several years. Because there is no insurance quite like good quality. And no liability like poor quality control. Three recommendations, which i have learned from my slight experience
1- Learn what good quality and poor quality look like, so you can tell the difference. Look at the low end and high end of good branded bike production, and look for things in common on both. Or just ask some fellows at the local bike shop (LBS).
2- Try to see what the difference in price among bicycles is caused by. Is it truly quality? or quality of components, hung on the same frame? If so, you may buy a cheaper bike, and upgrade components as skill and finances permit. This will be more expensive, but may be more affordable for you.
3- Realize that mail order, while perhaps giving you a good bicycle, does not offer you the luxury of inspecting the machine before you buy it. Also, some bicycle shops fit you to the bicycle, which is very important to the end result, but which can also be researched online. This research will provide you, as the rider, insights which will be very helpful to your own enjoyment.


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## Algarvecycling (2 Jul 2020)

rogerzilla said:


> What would you rather ride? A carbon bike with Bianchi on the downtube or with Boardman on the downtube? The bikes will probably perform identically once adjusted to fit you.
> 
> 95% of cyclists would probably take the Bianchi if they could afford it. As has been said elsewhere, "if value for money were the only thing that mattered, we'd all drive Hyundais".



I agree and disagree.  It is easy to be dismissive with cost vs perceived benefit where that benefit doesn't make sense to you personally - it is very subjective.

The Bianchi may be made of a higher quality carbon. It may be lighter or more aero or both or all. While the sum of the whole package incl. parts is very significant, even if we only look at a Bianchi Oltre XR4 frame vs Boardman's finest, the Bianchi is the better frame in terms of real measurable benefits depending upon what you are looking for. Naturally, to most, those benefits won't ever come into play but for some they will make a tangible, even if relatively small, difference - whether that is worth it and therefore represents reasonable additional cost is up to the individual concerned to decide. 

The Bianchi would represent a poor choice in terms of value for money to someone who would not benefit from the advantages it may offer or if the person buying one had to stretch somewhat to afford it. Value for money depends largely upon the value of that sum of money vs income to the individual. Still, I would agree that the Bianchi would be regarded by most as being of less value for money vs the Boardman.


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## Cycleops (2 Jul 2020)

RoadRider400 said:


> Check out didoo on Ebay. I am pleased with mine, its a slightly looser fit so possibly not the sort of thing if you want fully skin tight.


Ooh matron!


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## Milzy (2 Jul 2020)

Pinnerello made in China crap.


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## Gravity Aided (2 Jul 2020)

I think carbon bicycles would be a point where quality control would be critical. And hard to determine, as well.


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## wafter (2 Jul 2020)

Gravity Aided said:


> I think carbon bicycles would be a point where quality control would be critical. And hard to determine, as well.


Indeed; this is why I'll never buy another... having been blinkered by naivity and lack of knowledge first time around. I love the bike for what it is, but there's always that nagging doubt in the back of my mind.

Steerer-tube failure seems an especially popular cause of CFRP-specific catastrophe but there's unsurprisingly little appetite on the part of the manufacturers or their lapdog industry media to acknowledge and address these issues; seemingly taking the time-honoured route of keeping a lid on the incidents that do occur and buying off those involved with out-of-court settlements. 

As wonderous as CFRP is as a material, I think it's intrinsically unsuited to safety-critical consumer products; especially at the entry level where owners and suppliers are unlikely to be aware of / respect the material's perculiarities and attitudes necessary to stave off premature failure.


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## figbat (2 Jul 2020)

Another angle on brand choice is after-sales service and backup, availability of parts and servicing options, warranties etc. Some manufacturers do this better than others - and it isn't necessarily the boutique ones that come out best.


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## Cycleops (2 Jul 2020)

Carbon is used in race bikes where weight and performance is critical but for leisure road Machines it really doesn’t offer much advantage . Team bikes only last one season so are essentially disposable. Some people will always want to ride what the pros are riding so consumer machines are sold on the back of that.
You’re really better off getting a steel or aluminium frame and the actual difference is actually very small.


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## rogerzilla (2 Jul 2020)

I don't actually like carbon much. I appreciate the weight but the big tubes make the bikes noisy on rough roads and they can feel dead. My Boardman Team Carbon - not the top end of the market, I appreciate - has too much flexibility at the rear to be able to use the biggest sprocket. This may be down to the wheels and I'm going to build a more conventional 32-spoke set to see if that solves the problem. If if doesn't, I'll get a steel frame and swap the bits over.


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## Grant Fondo (2 Jul 2020)

Anonymous1502 said:


> Are bikes that cost similar amounts are pretty much the same even if they are different brands? If not what brands are good and which ones aren't in your opinion?


Are you thinking of buying one?


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## Ajax Bay (2 Jul 2020)

She's bought one already. At uni (even in Edinburgh), noone will give a tupenny f' except if it looks nice with a recognisable brand they 'll think "That's likely to get pinched".


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## MichaelW2 (2 Jul 2020)

It is wrong to assume that Asian made frames are crap. The high end ones are as good as it gets and the standard Taiwanese factory frame is well made no matter whose brand it bares. Low end and BSO Chinese frames are sticker branded shite

Not sure how high end China can get at the moment but underestimate at your peril.


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## Blue Hills (2 Jul 2020)

Moon bunny said:


> What is so good about “Italian heritage” anyway? It. Is not as if they invented the bicycle, do people believe Michelangelo had a hand in designing their color schemes?


There was a discovery a while ago of a Leonardo drawing of a bicycle. But it turned out to be a hoax.


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## confusedcyclist (2 Jul 2020)

Some brands come with lifetime frame warranties etc, others don't. It's not always are clear cut as it seems. Some offer better after sales support, etc. Choose wisely.


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## wafter (2 Jul 2020)

rogerzilla said:


> I don't actually like carbon much. I appreciate the weight but the big tubes make the bikes noisy on rough roads and they can feel dead. My Boardman Team Carbon - not the top end of the market, I appreciate - has too much flexibility at the rear to be able to use the biggest sprocket. This may be down to the wheels and I'm going to build a more conventional 32-spoke set to see if that solves the problem. If if doesn't, I'll get a steel frame and swap the bits over.


Sounds like you're putting out more power than I'm capable of!

To be fair ride-wise I really like my Team Carbon and so far the ownership experience has been good (cack, hastily-replaced brake calipers aside). Objectively / idealistically I'm less keen on the PF bottom bracket, cheapo chainset and prospect that it's been assembled by an un-caring and poorly-trained Halfords chimp... while I live in perpetual fear of the fork folding beneath me thanks to a few horror stories on the net.

I can't bear to get rid of it, but knowing when I bought it what I do now I'd have looked at something like a used Equilbrium disc instead.


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## confusedcyclist (2 Jul 2020)

Shreds said:


> Knowing how to mend the bike yourself is vital both on the road and back at base too!



Sadly, knowing how to mend a bike also means knowing how to upgrade a bike. I have spent a few $$$ in my time


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## Blue Hills (2 Jul 2020)

figbat said:


> Another angle on brand choice is after-sales service and backup, availability of parts and servicing options, warranties etc. Some manufacturers do this better than others - and it isn't necessarily the boutique ones that come out best.


That's why it's best to use bikes with pretty straightforward industry standard bits then you can sort everything yourself. I have ventured in the past into bikes with clever clever bits (looking at you dahon and cannondale) but lessons learned.


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## Mr Celine (2 Jul 2020)

Cycleops said:


> Carbon is used in race bikes where weight and performance is critical but for leisure road Machines it really doesn’t offer much advantage . Team bikes only last one season so are essentially disposable. Some people will always want to ride what the pros are riding so consumer machines are sold on the back of that.
> You’re really better off getting a steel or aluminium frame and the actual difference is actually very small.


Someone else has said the OP is in Edinburgh. 
In which case they shouldn't buy steel as winter road salt will wreck it in short order. It also wrecks aluminium but takes a bit longer.


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## vickster (2 Jul 2020)

Mr Celine said:


> Someone else has said the OP is in Edinburgh.
> In which case they shouldn't buy steel as winter road salt will wreck it in short order. It also wrecks aluminium but takes a bit longer.


London now but going to Uni in Edinburgh - already has a bike

Not sure why @Ajax Bay thinks the OP is a she? Could be of course!


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## Ajax Bay (2 Jul 2020)

@vickster I'm surprised at you. Would you have commented if I had said: "He's bought one already"?
ETA: Do you think all these questions (brand, locks, bikes stolen, accidents) fit a 18 year old male stereotype or a 21 year old female stereotype, or neither?
Just chatting


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## vickster (2 Jul 2020)

Ajax Bay said:


> @vickster I'm surprised at you. Would you have commented if I had said: "He's bought on already"?


I just wondered, as I don't recall the OP indicating gender  
Plenty of forum members automatically seem to assume that all posters are male  (granted only a small number of us aren't  )


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## Gunk (2 Jul 2020)

MichaelW2 said:


> It is wrong to assume that Asian made frames are crap. The high end ones are as good as it gets and the standard Taiwanese factory frame is well made no matter whose brand it bares. Low end and BSO Chinese frames are sticker branded shite
> 
> Not sure how high end China can get at the moment but underestimate at your peril.



the Taiwanese have known for high quality mass produced frames for years. Most of the top brands are made there.


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## raleighnut (2 Jul 2020)

wafter said:


> Sounds like you're putting out more power than I'm capable of!
> 
> To be fair ride-wise I really like my Team Carbon and so far the ownership experience has been good (cack, hastily-replaced brake calipers aside). Objectively / idealistically I'm less keen on the PF bottom bracket, cheapo chainset, and prospect that it's been assembled by an un-caring and poorly-trained Halfords chimp... while I live in perpetual fear of the fork folding beneath me thanks to a few horror stories on the net.
> 
> I can't bear to get rid of it, but knowing when I bought it what I do now I'd have looked at something like a used Equilbrium disc instead.


If you want to check out an engineers perspective on carbon frame bottom brackets and the general poor quality of the construction look up 'Hambini'* on t'internet but be warned he swears a lot.

* the guy makes BB adapters for all kinds of CF frame/crankset combinations and is used to tolerances in microns in his work.


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## wafter (2 Jul 2020)

raleighnut said:


> If you want to check out an engineers perspective on carbon frame bottom brackets and the general poor quality of the construction look up 'Hambini'* on t'internet but be warned he swears a lot.
> 
> * the guy makes BB adapters for all kinds of CF frame/crankset combinations and is used to tolerances in microns in his work.


Thanks - I'm a fan of his work and while some dislike his blunt and sweary delivery I very much appreciate his educated, insightful, and agenda-free assessment of the frames he encounters. 

Luscher Technic (sp?) on youtube is also well worth a watch re. assessment and testing of composite bike bits, if you weren't already familiar


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## Ajax Bay (2 Jul 2020)

raleighnut said:


> check out an engineer's perspective on carbon frame bottom brackets and the general poor quality of the construction look up 'Hambini'* on t'internet


Rather than 'generally poor', I think it's reasonable to say that this is specifically an issue with (and difficulty of) the quality control and assurance element of manufacture of BB shells in carbon frames in a factory remote from brand manufacturer oversight. This, combined with a percentage game of choosing to save on net costs by skimping on QC/QA and accepting that the few poor ones that 'slip through' (poor enough to cause aggravation and be recognised as such) will require warranty replacement and the resultant cost.
Some brands seem to get the balance right: others less so (see the last 5 minutes of the videos for the 'quality'  scale. I think the graphs showing the different brands and their tolerances and range are informative (if you're going for a carbon frame). And paying more is no assurance of quality.


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## freiston (3 Jul 2020)

gunja99 said:


> I am amazed at the cost of jerseys, etc. And being new to cycling using my running gear for now (including shorts, and amazingly no bottom issues even with 3 hours on the saddle yet!). I would like a jersey for no reason other than having a back pocket, but holding out, and just couldn't believe the prices of most (not just some!)


I like to cycle in the long sleeved t-shirts sold for walking/hiking (tbh, I like to wear them almost all the time, on or off the bike). To compensate for lack of back pockets, I use a small waist pack/bumbag. It's not good for getting stuff in and out on the move but it keeps my phone, wallet, keys etc. safe and relatively easy to get to.


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## mustang1 (3 Jul 2020)

Bike geo: there are three contact points you make with the bike. Backside, hands, feets. DO you generaly like the bars higher for a more relaxed position or lower for aerodynamics? Do you like the sitting horizontally close to the pedals thus putting more pressure on the feet or for the saddle to be further back thus giving a more relaxed position. That kind of stuff.

As to bikes made in same factory or production line: true, but the implication shouldn't be they are the same bike. They could be, or they might not be,

The brand itself: if you ride a £5k pinarello or a 5k BTwin then, wait, no BTwin even made a £5k bike? Are Pinarello making a huge profit on that bike? Sure they are. Are BTwin making a huge profit on any of their bikes? Sure they are. That's why companies exist. Do these brands send out different vibes? Yup. Should they? Dunno, up to the observer.

Do the frames feel different? I was VERY skeptical of this until I tried out some frames while using the same wheelset, tyres, tyre pressure, and back-to-back and I was amazed at the differences. The slightly more comfortable yet much stiffer bike was far more expensive than the harsher riding one. Is it worth the difference? Well this is where market segmentation comes into play. If you can afford the more expensive bike, you will justify it's purchase. If you cannot, then you will justify why you dont need the more expensive bike. There are those who can "afford" it but choose not to.

There are those who say to test-ride as many bikes as you can. Yeah, but you won't be buying a bike for a couple of years then. So I normally just go to my favourite bike shop and buy from their selection. Oh, magazine reviews.... don't worry about them. 

Edit: lol i just realized i wrote "feets" but I'll leave it there for comedic value if you are so inclined.


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## Anonymous1502 (3 Jul 2020)

Grant Fondo said:


> Are you thinking of buying one?


Not anytime soon. I already have 1.


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## Anonymous1502 (3 Jul 2020)

mustang1 said:


> Bike geo: there are three contact points you make with the bike. Backside, hands, feets. DO you generaly like the bars higher for a more relaxed position or lower for aerodynamics? Do you like the sitting horizontally close to the pedals thus putting more pressure on the feet or for the saddle to be further back thus giving a more relaxed position. That kind of stuff.
> 
> As to bikes made in same factory or production line: true, but the implication shouldn't be they are the same bike. They could be, or they might not be,
> 
> ...


Thank you for your reply, I am not quite sure yet as to what it is I want from a bike as I don't have much experience riding various bikes. I like to cycle long distances and I appreciate lightweight bikes. That is what I know so far. I am relatively new to cycling so I want to find out as much as possible so I won't have any misconceptions.


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## Grant Fondo (3 Jul 2020)

Anonymous1502 said:


> Not anytime soon. I already have 1.


Ok, but what are you looking for in your second bike? Lets face it, we all need at least three


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## Anonymous1502 (4 Jul 2020)

Grant Fondo said:


> Ok, but what are you looking for in your second bike? Lets face it, we all need at least three


After doing some more research last night hydraulic breaks seem to be seen as better and I would like to have a better groupset as it seems to be important. I really do wonder what is the difference in riding a bike with a more expensive groupset is like and whether there is actually any difference. I also never tried an aerobike so that's another thing I am curious about.


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## raleighnut (4 Jul 2020)

Anonymous1502 said:


> After doing some more research last night hydraulic breaks seem to be seen as better and I would like to have a better groupset as it seems to be important. I really do wonder what is the difference in riding a bike with a more expensive groupset is like and whether there is actually any difference. I also never tried an aerobike so that's another thing I am curious about.


I've always had cable* Brakes* and they work fine.


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## Anonymous1502 (4 Jul 2020)

raleighnut said:


> I've always had cable* Brakes* and they work fine.


thank you for the reassurance that I am not missing out on anything


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## vickster (4 Jul 2020)

Disc brakes are potentially better in wet conditions in traffic on steep hills. Otherwise, keep your rims clean and brake pads in good order.

Some rim brakes are relatively poor though so an upgrade to 105 with better pads might be worthwhile if you have entry level Tektro or Promax at the moment and are finding the braking power lacking.
What bike do you have?


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## Velochris (4 Jul 2020)

Manufacturer alone means little. Sometimes Company A will outsource production of their high end frames to Factory A. Their other frames to Factory B... Company B also use Factory A for their frames, so on and so forth.

The manufacturer should specify the tolerances etc. This is where buying a frame can be a gamble. 

No matter what company, if a production line operative has a bad day, you get a bottom bracket out of line undersized, oversized... and poor quality control lets it out of the favtory. You then have creaks etc.

What really matters is the quality control, and that can vary from factory to factory, regardless of brand.

Slight exception are French brand Time. They make their carbon a different way to most. 

For me, find a bike that fits, you like the look of, and is backed up by a good (and actually supported) warranty.

As stated above, have a look at Hambini and others on YouTube. 

Finally, take media reviews with a pinch of salt. They will make out minor changes in bikes make night/day differnce.

Spoken as somebody who got back riding 18 years ago, believed the hype etc for a while. Yes, modern bikes are great, but your fitness and mood have more of an influence on how you ride.


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## Anonymous1502 (4 Jul 2020)

vickster said:


> Disc brakes are potentially better in wet conditions in traffic on steep hills. Otherwise, keep your rims clean and brake pads in good order.
> 
> Some rim brakes are relatively poor though so an upgrade to 105 with better pads might be worthwhile if you have entry level Tektro or Promax at the moment and are finding the braking power lacking.
> What bike do you have?


I have specialized allez e5.


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## Gunk (4 Jul 2020)

vickster said:


> Disc brakes are potentially better in wet conditions in traffic on steep hills. Otherwise, keep your rims clean and brake pads in good order.
> 
> Some rim brakes are relatively poor though so an upgrade to 105 with better pads might be worthwhile if you have entry level Tektro or Promax at the moment and are finding the braking power lacking.
> What bike do you have?



What you want is a set of 60 year old Weinmann centre pulls, rubber brake blocks, a chrome rim and a light splattering of rain, it was interesting this morning, a long time since I pulled a lever and the bike didn’t stop!


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## Ajax Bay (4 Jul 2020)

Anonymous1502 said:


> After doing some more research last night hydraulic breaks seem to be seen as better and I would like to have a better groupset as it seems to be important. I really do wonder what is the difference in riding a bike with a more expensive groupset is like and whether there is actually any difference. I also never tried an aerobike so that's another thing I am curious about.


"seem" "seen" "better" "seems" "important" "is there actually a difference?"
Disc brakes offer advantages over rim brakes but there are disadvantages too. Research it yourself including simply searching on here (Cyclechat).
Why would you like a "better" groupset? What improvements are you seeking? Does it matter TO YOU - what other people think?
Differences: very slightly better performance, maybe; lighter; more expensive (and btw therefore better easy resale value and thus more likely to be stolen without the owner's due care - especially in cities like London and Edinburgh); consumables (chains, cassettes) much more expensive (so running costs higher).
Aerobike. Minimal actual difference unless you plan to be averaging at least 30kph and riding one will feel no different. Look for many other aero bangs for your buck (this link just the first I found: there will be others better) not in order: deep section wheels with correct width tyres, aero handlebars, tight (ie non-flapping) clothing and shoe covers, choice of helmet.


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## Gunk (4 Jul 2020)

Fit a decent pair of 105, Ultegra or Dura ace calipers and really IMO that’s all the braking you’ll ever need on a road bike, I’ve never felt that my road bike with 105 5800 rim brakes needed more.

However on a down hill mountain bike I want big powerful hydraulic disc brakes


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## Anonymous1502 (4 Jul 2020)

Ajax Bay said:


> "seem" "seen" "better" "seems" "important" "is there actually a difference?"
> Disc brakes offer advantages over rim brakes but there are disadvantages too. Research it yourself including simply searching on here (Cyclechat).
> Why would you like a "better" groupset? What improvements are you seeking? Does it matter TO YOU - what other people think?
> Differences: very slightly better performance, maybe; lighter; more expensive (and btw therefore better easy resale value and thus more likely to be stolen without the owner's due care - especially in cities like London and Edinburgh); consumables (chains, cassettes) much more expensive (so running costs higher).
> Aerobike. Minimal actual difference unless you plan to be averaging at least 30kph and riding one will feel no different. Look for many other aero bangs for your buck (this link just the first I found: there will be others better) not in order: deep section wheels with correct width tyres, aero handlebars, tight (ie non-flapping) clothing and shoe covers, choice of helmet.


I have still a long way to learn I think it will take time for me to understand what matters to me in a bike. Thanks for your reply.


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## Blue Hills (4 Jul 2020)

raleighnut said:


> I've always had cable* Brakes* and they work fine.


agree.
After for years using magura hydraulic rim brakes on a bike.
Worked very well but after years of zero hassle I encountered pressure loss and got bored of trying to sort it.
So I retired the system.
Cables from now on.
With V brakes I can stop anything.
Have a supply of brake cables, takes no time to change and can't actually remember the last time I changed one on my 8 to 10 bikes.


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## Blue Hills (4 Jul 2020)

Anonymous1502 said:


> I have still a long way to learn I think it will take time for me to understand what matters to me in a bike. Thanks for your reply.


I think the first thing you need to decide is what you might want to use this second bike for.
Then folks can offer real advice.


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## roubaixtuesday (4 Jul 2020)

wafter said:


> Basically unless you're paying thousands for a custom-build by a local bloke in a shed you're unlikely to ever know much about the origins of your frame, the people who made it, the ethics involved, the manufacturing standards adhered to, the value for money you've received or whose pockets your lining...



Top rant 

https://www.bicycles-by-design.co.uk/


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## Vantage (4 Jul 2020)

Cycleops said:


> it is still the heritage though that attracts people innit. A Ferrari might be a Fiat but It’s still a Ferrari.




View: https://youtu.be/GVlyGejQSi0


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## Cycleops (4 Jul 2020)

Vantage said:


> View: https://youtu.be/GVlyGejQSi0



Yeahbut Lauda demands a race car that is sorted to the n th degree, regular users just want something to look cool and pose in .


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## freiston (4 Jul 2020)

vickster said:


> Disc brakes are potentially better in wet conditions in traffic on steep hills. Otherwise, keep your rims clean and brake pads in good order.
> 
> Some rim brakes are relatively poor though so an upgrade to 105 with better pads might be worthwhile if you have entry level Tektro or Promax at the moment and are finding the braking power lacking.
> What bike do you have?


+1!
I have cantilever brakes and still manage to lock my wheels in the wet (did it on Thursday when a car surprised me coming round the bend of a single track lane). imho, a lot of the popularity of disc brakes is down to a significant number of people not having their rim brakes set up properly or using poor/worn pads and also memories/tales of poor performance when steel rims were commonplace. There might be an element of technique involved too.


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## mustang1 (5 Jul 2020)

Anonymous1502 said:


> Thank you for your reply, I am not quite sure yet as to what it is I want from a bike as I don't have much experience riding various bikes. I like to cycle long distances and I appreciate lightweight bikes. That is what I know so far. I am relatively new to cycling so I want to find out as much as possible so I won't have any misconceptions.


Imho for long distance a well-fitted road bike would be very efficient or a gravel bike is quite efficient and also adds comfort.


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## PaulSB (6 Jul 2020)

@Anonymous1502 some of your needs seem similar to mine. My criteria are these, in order:

must be a very good fit for me only needing minor adjustment, not a make do by changing x,y,z
comfortable over long distances
help me achieve the level I need to stay with riders perhaps 20 years younger
look good - this is very important to me
After meeting those criteria I would have to include high quality wheels and disc brakes. Good wheels, for me, are worth 2-3 mph on the flat, more when descending. I like the faster braking discs give in an emergency but this is rarely called for. Again for me the real benefit of discs is I find they give me greater control, a very light application will gently vary my speed just enough. I find this gives me greater confidence.

If money was no object I would happily put it in to the very best components. However I do have budgets so for example would chose 105 over Ultegra and put the saving in to wheels and tyres. I don't believe 2-300g less weight makes a huge difference at my level. It's cheaper to shift a couple of kilos off my waist.

Once you've set a budget I suggest you create two lists of essential and desireable. Once the essential is ticked off with the very best you can afford move on to the desireable list.

My current summer bike was £3000. A year later my LBS handed me two wheels and said these will make you go faster. Cost me £600+ but boy what a difference.


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