# Winter Tour to Northern Norway (Alta)



## whodabear (28 Aug 2010)

Calling all cold-weather crazy cyclsits :

I'm considering riding to Alta, Norway, to arrive in time for an expedition medicine course starting in mid February 2011. Although I've ridden a bit and am confident with my riding and my bike, this level of cold will be new to me. Norway is also new territory. I'll be riding alone, and camping / snow-holing where possible, but am likely to head for warm stays here and there.

I've been reading various bits on this forum and gained some knowledge from the Iditabike stuff, but I still have lots of questions before I am happy to commit to this ride and start buying in the necessary kit.

Thanks for reading, and any help with the questions below will be much appreciated. I will, of course, keep you all posted if I decide to do it.

1. Clothing suggestions:
I'm thinking of wearing synthetic base layers with power-stretch fleece bib and jacket over when riding (I know that sweating is to be avoided, and I do tend to get hot easily), with light-weight shells over if necessary, and a big, fat down jacket to put on when I'm stopped. Boots, however, I have no idea about. I'm going to use flat pedals with Powergrip extra-long foot gripper things, so I can go with a big, non-cycle specific boot. Any suggestions as to what type of boot? Ski-touring boot perhaps?

2. Terrain / road conditions:
I'm going to be on metal spiked tyres (haven't decided which ones yet - there is a good forum topic for that). Hard-pack snow, ice, and slush I figure I can handle, but do you get deep snow on the roads in Norway? Are they frequently ploughed? My low-loader front rack and panniers will turn my bike into an un-ridable snow plough at about 20cm of snow (I'm guessing that much less than that would see me pushing anyway, but 20cm and I'm definitely knackered).

3. Route suggestions:
I've not looked at this at all as yet. Any suggestions anyone? Places / routes to avoid?

4. Bike prep:
I've got lots of useful info from the Iditabike pages (see All Weather Sports, amongst others). These suggest various modifications including stripping and re-greasing moving parts with cold-weather grease, using water-proof cable housings etc. Does anyone have any other specific tips for super-cold bike prep?

5. Camping:
I'm probably going with a TerraNova Laser. I've already got it, and reckon its a good tent. Although I'm not in the market for yet another tent, does anyone think this is an disasterous choice of tent? Or maybe I should bivvy rather than tent it? Does anyone have any suggestions on this?

6. Other kit I intend taking (please let me know if you think any of this is a rubbish idea...
Ortlieb luggage, RAB down sleeping bag (probably the expedition 1000), Primus omnifuel, Brooks leather saddle, Camelback for water (inside the outer layers), Exped Downmat 7. 


I'm at an early stage of the planning (as I'm sure you can tell), but I'm pretty up for this trip.

Thanks in advace, all you cold-weather bikers.

WhoDaBear


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## willem (28 Aug 2010)

Unless you have serious arctic experience from e.g. a stint in the Royal Marines or living in the American North East (I did live there), I think this is pretty suicidal - literally. Have a look here for some of the basics: http://www.princeton.edu/~oa/winter/wintcamp.shtml In addition, northern Norway is pitch dark for much of the day in that time of year. Great idea, but pretty daft, I am afraid (unless you were with the SAS).
Willem


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## whodabear (28 Aug 2010)

willem said:


> Unless you have serious arctic experience from e.g. a stint in the Royal Marines or living in the American North East (I did live there), I think this is pretty suicidal - literally. Have a look here for some of the basics: http://www.princeton.../wintcamp.shtml In addition, northern Norway is pitch dark for much of the day in that time of year. Great idea, but pretty daft, I am afraid (unless you were with the SAS).
> Willem



Hi Willem,

I appreciate any and all advice - including the "don't be an idiot - you'll die" variety. I have no intention of dying on a bike ride, or for that matter, sacrificing any extremities to a cold-weather biking project.

I'm still trying to work out whether or not this trip is viable - and I hear you clearly voting a "no!" - fair enough.

I am going to be meeting with a friend who has trekked to the South Pole tomorrow, and getting in touch with a Norweigan guide he knows soonafter to chat more about it.

In the mean time, I'm still keen to hear from other folks, both on the "don't be an idiot" vs. "give it a try" vote, and, perhaps more helpfully, on the "well, if I was going to do it I would do it like this..." front.

Thanks again for the advice so far.

I look forward to hearing more from you and others.


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## Telemark (28 Aug 2010)

whodabear said:


> I look forward to hearing more from you and others.



As for "what to take" - cross-country skis  and a sled trailer (INSTEAD of the bike  )

When the snow gets a little deep (and it doesn't need to get much above your tyres) and it's the "wrong kind of snow", your bike may decide it doesn't want to move anymore ... or it could start "floating" in really light powdery snow ... or it could be icy if the temperature is around zero or has been in the past ... 
Personally, I'd steer well clear of cycling in such extreme conditions, if you must have an adventure, take the skis  
You can always go back there with the bike once the snow is gone ...

Of course, you could end up with clear & well gritted roads all the way, and the snow is just there beside the road, pretty to look at (and soft to sleep on in your tent), but equally you could end up in a white-out ...
T


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## jay clock (28 Aug 2010)

Firstly, utterly bonkers, but it looks like you have had a serious stab at thinking of some of the issues. Better than some people who come on here. I recall a young lad who was going to cycle from Sicily to the UK doing 120 miles a day sleeping in hedges. But he did it, so maybe you will. The cold will be terrible but I think the dark will be the killer....

Do look at crazyguyonabike.com....

Jay


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## toroddf (29 Aug 2010)

Off the most stupid ideas.............. 

Well, parts of this route was attempted two years ago and almost ended up with two fatalities. Those two guys gave up after one day and with a serious warning to others never to try this suicidal task again. 

The reason is the thing you have forgotten to think about: The cars. Or rather the trucks. During the winter, the Norwegian roads is developing into single tracks, literary speaking. The line between the yellow marking and the white marking, that's the road shoulder, develops into two grooves. One groove for the right tires and one groove for the left tires. The bit nearest to the white stripe/the road shoulder, where you are supposed to be, is developing into a 45 degree steep icy snow boulder. That part is impossible to cycle on. It is even close to impossible to walk on this bit of the road and I have many times been scared witless by having to walk along a road at this time of the year. It is in fact luck that I am able to write these lines. Many others has not been that lucky......... and we are talking about walking here with suitable shoes. 

You cannot move to the road shoulder where you spend your time at the summer time. You will therefore end up in the right groove (they drive on the right side in Norway) where you will get in conflict with the cars and the 50 feet long, multi tonnes big trucks. Guess who will win in that conflict ? The trucks cannot move out of their grooves because they will loose control over their vehicles. If there is oncoming traffic, that means personal injury or fatalities. You cannot move out of the groove because of the 45 degrees steep icy boulder you have to climb. You are stucked in the right groove. If the truck is closing in at you in bad light and in 50 miles an hour, guess who is in trouble ? Answers on a headstone, please.  

The darkness and very bad light also makes this, at best, a suicidal journey. The worst case scenario is if you put anyone's else life in danger or terminates their lives due to the chaos you will create on the road.

There is simply things in life you don't do. This is one of these things.


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## elduderino (29 Aug 2010)

Here's a journal of a guy who cycled the ice roads of Estonia in mid-winter *http://tinyurl.com/34q3ya7* it might be worth a read to you. He also has a seperate post containing his winter gear. He used Schwalbe Marathon Winter tyres.

I also once read of someone doing a coast to coast across Canada in winter, but I forget the link to that one.

Good luck, sounds like an adventure.


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## Rohloff_Brompton_Rider (29 Aug 2010)

the best bike for the job is a surly pugsley, with large marge rims and endomorph tyres. cheap to build as well. good luck, hope you don't suffer too badly.


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## Crankarm (29 Aug 2010)

willem said:


> Unless you have serious arctic experience from e.g. a stint in the Royal Marines or living in the American North East (I did live there), I think this is pretty suicidal - literally. Have a look here for some of the basics: http://www.princeton.../wintcamp.shtml In addition, northern Norway is pitch dark for much of the day in that time of year. Great idea, but pretty daft, I am afraid (unless you were with the SAS).
> Willem




+1.

To the OP - LoL  is it April 1st????? What utter madness to contemplate such a trip at that time of year on a bike. Surely a candidate for the Darwin Awards if you don't have kids.

Are you heading for the Nordkapp?

Even in the summer months it can be pretty cold and there can be snow closing roads. At least there isn't perpetual darkness. How cold do you think it gets in winter within the Arctic Circle? Have you considered wind chill? Nearly as mad as Rob Lilwall trying to cycle through Siberia in Winter.

If you do go you will need a sled and huskies or a snow mobile and all the equipment you would need treking to the North or South Poles. The transmission of your bike would just freeze in those low temperatures.


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## whodabear (29 Aug 2010)

toroddf said:


> Off the most stupid ideas..............



Thank you Toroddf. I like to think of myself as ignorant (as yet ignorant of the facts, hence researching) instead of stupid (I'm not).




> Well, parts of this route was attempted two years ago and almost ended up with two fatalities. Those two guys gave up after one day and with a serious warning to others never to try this suicidal task again.




Good Beta as we say in the UK (info from previous folks who have done / attempted what you youself are considering).




> The reason is the thing you have forgotten to think about: The cars. Or rather the trucks. During the winter, the Norwegian roads is developing into single tracks, literary speaking...




Not forgotten about - answers to questions like these are why I'm on this forum. Again, good information, and much appreciated.




> There is simply things in life you don't do. This is one of these things.




This may be, as you suggest, one of those things that can't be done. Again, thats why I'm on this forum four months or so before the possible start of the trip.


Toroddf - you seem to have some knowledge of the roads in Northern Norway in winter.


Question for you - or anyone else - is this trip all the way up to Alta really is not possible on a bike in winter, how far North would be maybe passable by bike before the roads deteriorate into the cyclist-death-traps that you describe? I'm keen to cycle as far North as possible, and then, if necessary, continue on by other transport.


Could a bike make it from Bergen as far up as Trondheim perhaps? I note that SAS flies from Trondheim to Alta in the winter... 


Still keen to hear more from people on this project, especially those from Norway.


Thanks.


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## Crankarm (29 Aug 2010)

whodabear said:


> Calling all cold-weather crazy cyclsits :
> 
> I'm considering riding to Alta, Norway, to arrive in time for an expedition medicine course starting in mid February 2011. Although I've ridden a bit and am confident with my riding and my bike, this level of cold will be new to me. Norway is also new territory. I'll be riding alone, and camping / snow-holing where possible, but am likely to head for warm stays here and there.
> 
> ...



............ it's a rubbish and foolhardy idea.

Err ............... I don't think you have grasped what is safe cold weather cycling and what is just suicidal.

What happens when your excessively sweaty clothes cannot keep you dry as they are soaked in sweat which is unable to evaporate as it's too cold? How are you going to dry them if camping? And your bike will seize up in the extreme cold.

Unbelievable ..................


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## whodabear (29 Aug 2010)

Crankarm said:


> Even in the summer months it can be pretty cold and there can be snow closing roads. At least there isn't perpetual darkness. How cold do you think it gets in winter and have you considered wind chill?




-26[sup]o[/sup]C February this year, though I note Alta a little milder than some of the surrounding areas. And yes, I've heard it feels colder when its windy.




> The transmission of your bike would just freeze in those low temperatures.



I note the Rohloff speed-hub I run is guaranteed down to -30[sup]o[/sup]C if the transmission oil is thinned with 50% cleaning oil. I assume that you are not referring to the rest of the chainset?

Anyone have any further helpful information? There have been some really useful posts so far, though sadly, Crankarm, yours not one of them.


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## Crankarm (29 Aug 2010)

whodabear said:


> -26[sup]o[/sup]C February this year, though I note Alta a little milder than some of the surrounding areas. And yes, I've heard it feels colder when its windy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If mine or any of the other rational replies persuade you against you hair brained idea then they will have achieved something. They will probably have saved your life and those of others trying to rescue you when you get into difficulties. If it was simply your life that you put at risk attempting this idiotic endeavour then I would say go, but unfortunately in these scenarios it never is.

I wouldn't be worried to much about the bike but my own extremities such as hands, fingers, feet, toes. Frost bite will be a very real and a serious problem. You do realise that if frost bite is serious then the only remedy is amputation?

It's not a case of getting a little bit cold feet and hands as in cycling in a UK winter even as cold as -8C feels. That you can warm your feet when you get home and not suffer any ill effects. The very low temperatures you will experience should you go ahead will have very serious implications for your survival.

As I say ............. unbelievable.


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## whodabear (29 Aug 2010)

Crankarm said:


> ............ it's a rubbish and foolhardy idea.
> 
> Err ............... I don't think you have grasped what is safe cold weather cycling and what is just suicidal.
> 
> ...




Yes - I am aware that sweat can not evaporates if its too cold, fouls your down layers, reducing their insulation, and hence kills you if cold enough. Hence the Innuit saying "If you sweat, you die". This effect is a major problem if camping for prolonged periods in extreme cold.


I have no intention of camping all the time, the indoor time being used to melt, and then to dry the insulating layers. Another approach being to use vapour barrier layers, though I'm sure you know this already.


As for the bike. I note the Iditabike folks recommend stripping and re-greasing where possible, all parts with a cold-temperature compatible grease (please see previous link).


But to be honest, I'm here for the informed and useful suggestions, rather than the insults Crankarm.


That doesn't mean you have to agree with me. Infact, I will likely find more use in posts that suggest I'm wrong about something rather than confirming what I already know.


Now. Back to business, especially on the question of:
OK, so how far North can you get in Norway before the roads become un-bikable in winter?


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## Crankarm (29 Aug 2010)

I think you are an idiot if you think you are being insulted. I merely state your idea is mad, hairbrained ..........
which it clearly is. You asked for thoughts and to say if anyone thought your idea rubbish. I did.

Well I'm fairly thick skinned. There are all sorts of nutters on cycling forums posting hair brained schemes such as yours.

As I say if mine and others' responses at least make you think about the real practical problems you will face trying to stay alive or avoid serious physical impairment as a result then they will have achieved something.

You have obviously decided to embark on this trip. If it all goes tits up for you which is a distinct possibilty I hope no one else is injured or loses their life encountering or rescuing you. Maybe you just disappear and your frozen body is found next year when the snows melt? Maybe you are never found .................... 

Anway your first problem will be trying to ride in deep snow working out where the road goes if you deviate from the main roads or decide to go beyond the road closed signs.


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## whodabear (29 Aug 2010)

Crankarm said:


> I think you are an idiot if you think you are being insulted. I merely state your idea is mad, hairbrained ..........
> which it clearly is. You asked for thoughts and to say if anyone thought your idea rubbish. I did.
> 
> Well I'm fairly thick skinned. There are all sorts of nutters on cycling forums posting hair brained schemes such as yours.
> ...




Again, un-helpful.

Again - anyone have any information on how far North in Norway the roads may be passable by bike in winter?

Thank you to all those with useful replies so far.


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## willem (29 Aug 2010)

I have never been there in winter (only in summer), but I have been in the north east of the US and Canada in winter, which is why I warned you. You go outside, and you have 15 minutes before your eyes start to freeze, that sort of thing. I did ride my bike in the snow in the US, and it was fun at minus 5 or 10, and near home. It was also hard work. 
As for your tent, of course the Laser is not good enough. It cannot cope with more than a little bit of snow, and it is too small for bulky winter gear. You will need a larger geodesic tent from Hilleberg or Helsport.
Willem


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## whodabear (29 Aug 2010)

willem said:


> I have never been there in winter (only in summer), but I have been in the north east of the US and Canada in winter, which is why I warned you. You go outside, and you have 15 minutes before your eyes start to freeze, that sort of thing. I did ride my bike in the snow in the US, and it was fun at minus 5 or 10, and near home. It was also hard work.
> As for your tent, of course the Laser is not good enough. It cannot cope with more than a little bit of snow, and it is too small for bulky winter gear. You will need a larger geodesic tent from Hilleberg or Helsport.
> Willem




Willelm:

Thank you - useful recommendations on the tent. I was banking on storing the vast majority of the gear outside the tent in the various panniers and dry-bags, but I agree that the geodesics are much more resilient in wind and snow than single hoop-designs such as the Laser.

I do understand that the cold is a fierce and dangerous beast.

However.

I'm going to Alta to complete a course which includes two nights out snow-holing as well as ice-water immersion and self-rescue drills in Alta, in Feb. I know that it is possible to spend time measured in days rather than minutes outside in these conditions, but I realise that I don't yet have the kit - or the knowledge for this trip. I am however, working on it.

The road conditions do sound un-bikable in the North of Norway - this advice gratefully accepted, and assuming that my other Norweigan source agrees on this, which I'm sure he will, the Northern parts of this journey are well and truly "off".

Still wondering how far North I can get the bike, with a view to finishing the journey by other means.

Still all-ears for further information on the road conditions.

Thanks.


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## toroddf (29 Aug 2010)

Whodabear.

I have lived in Norway in the first 27 years of my life. I was living in the Troms to Alta area during one winter. That means, the final 200 miles of that route. I have cycled through Alta on my way south during a tour. I know this road and area very well. I also have friends living in this area, including truck drivers who drive through Alta 4-5 times a week, 52 weeks a year. That also includes the winter months.

The reason why you are committing suicide or even worse; maiming, hurting or killing someone else, is not the effective minus 40 to 50 degrees you will encounter. It is not even the weather. Neither is it the climate and neither is it the snow. The snow is actually your only friend up there. 

The one thing that will kill you and/or maybe someone else is the roads. Let me take an example: Go down to a railway. Stand in the middle of a railway when a train is approaching. Did the train swerve to avoid you ? No, it ran straight over you. Why ? Because it runs on the same type of grooves (socalled rail tracks) as you will find on *all *the roads in Norway and Scandinavia during the winter. These roads are reduced to grooves which it is very difficult to escape from. Both for you and both for cars and trucks. Due to high snowbanks, you cannot escape onto the road shoulder. Who do you think will be hurt most when a car or a truck hits you ? Go down to a motorway and find out. 

I don't mind you going up there. I think your idea is what Charles Darwin called _Natural Selection_. But I do mind if, or rather when, a car/truck swerves to avoid you and then kill someone coming from in the opposite lane because he/she has lost control over the car/truck. For that reason, I am warning you against this adventure. For what you are planning is irresponsible to the extreme. 

But deep inside, I also do not want you to die because of this very foolish idea.  

....... And that is what I guess the police will too. I think they will soon serve a persona non grata order on you which will last you for ten years, put you on a front page of a newspaper with the caption "another braindead idiot from abroad" (and Daily Mail will do that here too), serve you with a very hefty fine, relieve you from your bike & your gear and then return you back to the living room you should never have left in the first place. This as an act of mercy towards both you and the lives your expedition has put in grave danger.


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## Danny (29 Aug 2010)

Crankarm said:


> As I say ............. unbelievable.



But one of the funniest threads I have read on CC in a long time.


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## Rohloff_Brompton_Rider (29 Aug 2010)

how far north did the german fella go? the one in the link a few posters ago. he seemed to manage ok.


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## toroddf (29 Aug 2010)

bromptonfb said:


> how far north did the german fella go? the one in the link a few posters ago. he seemed to manage ok.


Estonia is what the people in Alta call "the tropics". Although the Baltics is harsh (x amount Russian/German troops perished there during WW2 due to the cold), it is nothing like the Northern part of Norway. I should know. 

This whole thread reminds me about a story a train driver on the Trondheim to Oslo railway told me one year ago. For some reason, there is a lot of pretty big bisons (called *moskus*, which translates to musk) living in that area. This is 400 kilos big animals with horns, a very short temper, a lot of hormones and not an awful lot of common sense. Some of the young males looses whatever common sense they have during a period during the winter and challenge anything that comes their way. 

So the train my friend was driving turned a corner in a pretty good speed one early morning on the top of a mountain pass and was confronted by one of these stupid hormones driven four legged fur-balls some hundred meters ahead. The train immediate put all the brakes on. The moskus dug his feet down and took a threatening posture. The train tried to stop, but was still rapidly approaching the moskus. Which off course the moskus took as a grave insult. So the moskus charged straight at the train at full speed, who was now desperate braking to avoid this confrontation. It goes without saying who the winner of this show-off was. 

That story was a sidetrack from the topics in this thread.


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## Rohloff_Brompton_Rider (29 Aug 2010)

i was only asking. how about the iditabike? is that further south? i'm only asking because i'm too busy to do any serious research and you seem knowledgeable.


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## willem (29 Aug 2010)

Well, for one thing, it is a tad shorter.
Willem


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## Crankarm (29 Aug 2010)

toroddf said:


> Whodabear.
> 
> I have lived in Norway in the first 27 years of my life. I was living in the Troms to Alta area during one winter. That means, the final 200 miles of that route. I have cycled through Alta on my way south during a tour. I know this road and area very well. I also have friends living in this area, including truck drivers who drive through Alta 4-5 times a week, 52 weeks a year. That also includes the winter months.
> 
> ...




Well if he doesn't heed your advice toroddf, you being a native, then he is indeed *bonkers.

*Some one has to save him from himself even if he can't .............. But the problem is not him coming to a cold miserable end, it is as you say the consequences his plan has for others ................

It's surely got to be a wind up, surely?

Why doesn't he contact Ray Mears who might offer some advice on his intended trip?


As Danny says this is the funniest thread on CC at the moment. 

It's made my BH weekend  .


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## toroddf (29 Aug 2010)

bromptonfb said:


> i was only asking. how about the iditabike? is that further south?



I guess it is just south of Alta, although in Alaska.

That's a race one totally different type of roads than the ones in Norway again. The things that will kill in Norway is the roads, in effect the trucks and the cars. Not the cold, not the snow and not the darkness. 

On the other hand or rather on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean....... That Iditabike ride seems like good fun and the ideal Arctic adventure.


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## Ticktockmy (29 Aug 2010)

I have to say, I always admire an adventurer, to some your plan would seem, foolhardy or even bloody stupid. I think you need as you have said, to really do an in depth risk assessment, from all the info given by people here and do in depth research.

You would be surprised by the amount of people who you see cycling through Norway during the winter months ( Locals I would point out).. You need to choose your routes well, as some roads are snow ploughed to the tarmac surface, some; well the greater percent are only ploughed to provide a useable surface. As has been pointed out to you the HGV traffic will cut deep groves, which help the truckers to keep their trucks on the road. For sure if the police think it is unwise for you to use a road they will stop you.

You biggest problem is going to be the cold, and believe me cold kills very slowly and silently.

The locals who cycle wear a vast arrangement of different wear, but basically they work to the layer system, base layer, intermediate layers, and wind proof outer layer, that include the head which can lose 70% of body heat, because we have major arteries and veins passing through the neck. Most of us UK cyclist already practice in winter riding and understand the layer principles, for Norway you just need to have bigger and better layers..

During the winter Norway does not get that cold, a maximum high on average being minus 5-6 deg C and a minimum on average -16, a temperature the human body can handle quite well.

What is the problem is the wind-chill factor, as an example: if you cycle at Minus 5 deg C at 20 Km/ph you will experience a wind chill factor of Minus 20 deg C. At Minus 16 deg C at 20 Km/Ph you will experience a wind chill factor of Minus 30 Deg C at that wind chill factor your flesh will freeze in one minute. Very easy to not notice the onset of frostnip and frostbite.

Likewise, your bike will be subject to the same factors, rubber cracks like human flesh, grease likewise has to be chosen to allow for the cold, alloy parts become brittle

Cycling by yourself would in my opinion be extremely foolhardy, so easy to get sideswiped by a truck or car, and no one would be any the wiser.

I can only say good luck in your adventure, just remember a lot of cyclist have come up in the past with what the majority consider to be foolhardy, but have gone ahead with it and proven them wrong.


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## toroddf (29 Aug 2010)

And you off course have a lot of examples of Norwegians cycling on these roads at mid winter ? Have you ever seen those roads, btw ? I have yet to see or even hear about Norwegians cycling that road at mid-winter. Never. But I have seen those roads many times over at mid-winter. 

I am cruel to be nice or even a life saver. And I am by no means joking in my many posts.  

Anyway; this thread is purely academic. This adventurer who started this thread will not be able to even leave the airport before being arrested and then probably deported for his own good and due to the safety of the other road users.


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## Ticktockmy (29 Aug 2010)

toroddf said:


> And you off course have a lot of examples of Norwegians cycling on these roads at mid winter ? Have you ever seen those roads, btw ? I have yet to see or even hear about Norwegians cycling that road at mid-winter. Never. But I have seen those roads many times over at mid-winter.
> 
> I am cruel to be nice or even a life saver. And I am by no means joking in my many posts.
> 
> Anyway; this thread is purely academic. This adventurer who started this thread will not be able to even leave the airport before being arrested and then probably deported for his own good and due to the safety of the other road users.



I can answer yes to all your questions, and indeed know and understand more about Norway than you would possible guess. LOL.

But the subject of this thread is not about who or what I know other than the subject matter relative to the guys query. I was trying to offer some sensible information to the guy in a friendly and non-emotive manner. If you had read my remarks you will or should have understand I really had not said anything much different than yourself just in a different form of words, and in a more calm and friendly manner. 

And as you said, whatever the guy plans, you know and I know that the appropriate authority will take him to one side and gently whisper in his shell like ear, and suggest that he might like to reconsider his plans, which of course he can as he intentions are to ride the route so that he can attend a expedition medicine course starting in mid February 2011.

You portray the police as being rather aggressive, ready to deport people because they think of doing something foolhardy, I guess there first words will be “You want to do What” and then roll about with laughter. As I said they will just give good advice and suggest he uses another form of transport.

Sorry whodabaer that this thread has gone a tad off course.


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## toroddf (29 Aug 2010)

Ticktockmy said:


> I can answer yes to all your questions, and indeed know and understand more about Norway than you would possible guess.  LOL.
> 
> But the subject of this thread is not about who or what I know other than the subject matter relative to the guys query.   I was trying to offer some sensible information to the guy in a friendly and non-emotive manner.  If you had read my remarks you will or should have understand I really had not said anything much different than yourself just in a different form of words, and  in a more calm and friendly manner.
> 
> ...


Sorry, I don't like people getting killed in the middle of their best years of their lives. Hence, that makes me and my writing emotional. I am certain that this expedition idea is a very dangerous undertaking indeed. Both for him and in particular; other road users. 

The police would not suggest. They would forcefully stop this expedition and fine the offender like they have done many times before. I have personal experience. 

Anyway, I should move onto more productive matters. Nuclear fission for example.


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## Ticktockmy (30 Aug 2010)

whodabear said:


> 5. Camping:
> I'm probably going with a TerraNova Laser. I've already got it, and reckon its a good tent. Although I'm not in the market for yet another tent, does anyone think this is an disasterous choice of tent? Or maybe I should bivvy rather than tent it? Does anyone have any suggestions on this?



The Terra Nova Laser is far from suitable for the conditions you want to use it in, it is in the main a temperate climate, 3 season tent (March to November), i.e., UK and Europe and similar worldwide. However I like a lot of other backpackers have used my TN laser Comp. In January and February both in the Cairngorms and the lake district, camping above the snowline, and whilst it ok for a few days in those conditions about minus 10 deg C night time temperatures , the condensation is bad, the zips freeze up which when you are trying to get out for a pee in the middle of the night which can be dammed inconvenient.

You will need a 5 season tent arctic tent, designed to withstand the cold, the wind and high levels of snowfall, and also providing low levels of condensation;

Here is a company which make some nice kit, which would be ok for what you want:

http://www.baffin.co...sp?idProduct=75

As to what boots to wear, maybe something like these

http://www.baffin.co...sp?idProduct=75


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## Brains (30 Aug 2010)

I've only done winter training and survival courses for walking and climbing in these conditions, so I am unable to comment on the cycle/road conditions.

However winter camping at these temperatures is possible

The tent: As previous posters have said, the Laser is not suitable.
You will require a full geodesic tent, at least 4 poles, with snow valences.
Have tried quite a number over the years I find the best two for snow conditions are North Face and Terra Nova.
The North Face Mountain 25, a cozy 2 man tent would be my first choice with the Terra Nova Quasar (the full mountain model) 2nd.

You will need a fair bit of kit and whilst one night in a tent in these conditions can be a laugh with a bunch of mates, by night three, on your own, being in the tent for 16 hours at a time due to the darkness the novelty will have worn off.


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## jay clock (30 Aug 2010)

I love the link to the boots from Baffin.... rated to -100deg C!


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## Ticktockmy (30 Aug 2010)

Ticktockmy said:


> The Terra Nova Laser is far from suitable for the conditions you want to use it in, it is in the main a temperate climate, 3 season tent (March to November), i.e., UK and Europe and similar worldwide. However I like a lot of other backpackers have used my TN laser Comp. In January and February both in the Cairngorms and the lake district, camping above the snowline, and whilst it ok for a few days in those conditions about minus 10 deg C night time temperatures , the condensation is bad, the zips freeze up which when you are trying to get out for a pee in the middle of the night which can be dammed inconvenient.
> 
> You will need a 5 season tent arctic tent, designed to withstand the cold, the wind and high levels of snowfall, and also providing low levels of condensation;
> 
> ...



hee hee I am a silly old bugger meant to put this link for the tents
http://www.lightwave.uk.com/


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## Crankarm (30 Aug 2010)

Maybe whodabear is getting cold feet about his trip ........................  .


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## Danny (30 Aug 2010)

jay clock said:


> I love the link to the boots from Baffin.... rated to -100deg C!


It doesn't say whether you can fit cleats to them though.


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## andyfromotley (30 Aug 2010)

As pointed out sweat could be a real killer. But to be fair its not as if Norway has many hills which would make one sweat..................


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## Crankarm (30 Aug 2010)

Danny said:


> It doesn't say whether you can fit cleats to them though.


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## Stephenite (31 Aug 2010)

I cycle regularly in Norway in winter. I don't know what all the fuss is about.  

.

.

.

.

.

Commuting though. For about an hour at a time, and stick mostly to cycle paths. I'm reluctant to use the road for, precisely, the same reasons Torudd has (vigorously!) explained. Ooops, back to work..


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## whodabear (1 Sep 2010)

Dear All, First - thanks for the many useful responses - lots of kit recommendations etc. 

I think there has been useful information-share; surely the point of forums. 

I will not be attempting this trip, but will be spending a decent amount of time in Northern Norway this winter, where I will learn about conditions for myself, I guess. 

The summary seems to be:

1. The cold and dark are full-on, and dangerous enemies to the rider 
_Problems with solutions here, some useful suggestions in posts._

2. Effects on the bike: 
Some parts will become brittle and prone to cracking.
Any parts with water in them will freeze (hence dry it first, don't bring it in from the cold, sealed cable lines etc.)
Some lubes will not be suitable for the cold (strip, degrease, re-grease with approved cold-temp lubes)
Rohloff hubs are likely ok down to -30deg. or so if prepared with thinner lube.
_Problems with solutions here, and knowledge gained from Iditabike and others elsewhere_

3. Winter camping: Use a geodesic design tent with snow-valance_
Again, problems with solutions here. Other kit advice available in posts, though best forums for this likely elsewhere_

4. Roads:
Those not graded-down to tarmac are likely bike-able due to deep ice ruts caused by heavy traffic.
Some are graded down to tarmac, and may bike-able (some responses claiming winter-biking experience in Norway)
_No detailed information about where these different roads are in posts_

Lastly, sadly, *I will not be using this forum again*.

Although there has been lots of useful information, it has not been a very nice experience for me. Posts have often been pretty unpleasant; more "you idiot" than "that won't work, here's why", with some notable exceptions.

If there are things I didn't know, about road conditions etc., _then thats why I asked_.

I have done a fair bit of cycling that others have considered foolhardy in the past (white-guy commuting through Soweto, South Africa en route to work at the Bara Trauma Unit springs to mind). This one is too "to out there" for me to consider, but it ought to be possible to ask these questions, no?

Anyway. Sadly, signing off - I'll not be reading any further posts here, and I would advise other adventurer / dreamer types to stick instead to asking questions that others find more acceptable (choice of lights / panniers etc.).

See you out on the roads / the off roads, but not on the forums I guess.

WhoDaBear


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## Rohloff_Brompton_Rider (1 Sep 2010)

i don't blame you for this post, or the disappointment you feel. if you read this post, good luck on future adventures. i too feel saddened by the tone of some replies. 

i too am signing off. 

to all those that know me or want to contact me for future rides, you have email address. 

goodbye.


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## Ticktockmy (1 Sep 2010)

whodabear said:


> Lastly, sadly, *I will not be using this forum again*.
> 
> Although there has been lots of useful information, it has not been a very nice experience for me. Posts have often been pretty unpleasant; more "you idiot" than "that won't work, here's why", with some notable exceptions.
> 
> ...



Well, if you are like me you will look back in sometime to see what guys have said about your departure.

Very sad you have decided to leave the forum, however I can understand your reasons, I can only wish you luck with your course... You know we really are a well meaning bunch of guys on here, and a lot of knowledge to be had.
Some peeps can be a little prickly at times, as I have found out sometimes in my postings. But that life, make the forum more the merrier.

hee hee I once did the total immersion thingy as part of my training, many years ago when I was a hardy teen.
Not very pleasent, more so if things go wrong you know you will die..lol.. but that what make life enjoyable.


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## toroddf (1 Sep 2010)

I was maybe a bit harsh in my replies. But I am not an irresponsible liar who let people go onto adventures who is likely to end up in fatalities. Sorry, but *your* life is far too precious to be ended on a piece of icy road in Norway. 

It is better to hate me or any others than being dead. And feel free to brand me everything under this sun for crushing your dreams and saving your life. Go on. Go on.  

I wish you good luck in other forums where you are being told what you want to hear. Then you will need all the luck in the world........ and a lot more.


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## Danny (1 Sep 2010)

WhoDaBear, I would also be sorry to see you leave. 

Your OP actually attracted some very thoughtful and well informed responses - I had no idea we had people who were so knowledgeable about winter cycling conditions in northern Norway.

I think most of the posts you felt were "unpleasant" were actually more akin to leg pulling - in part occasioned by your apparent unwillingness to take heed the warnings about the impracticalities of such a journey. I am genuinely sorry if you felt this was unpleasant, but I can only say that some CC regulars have had a much more severe leg pulling in the past over some of their planned tours.

I really don't think any of this was meant to be malicious, and I am sure we would all like to hear about your next planned adventure.


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## Kirstie (1 Sep 2010)

It looked like me that the majority of the comments were made out of concern - I'm sorry that whodabear got the hump.
It was an interesting thread - about time we had a bit of fire (and ice, it seems) in T&E!!


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## Dayvo (1 Sep 2010)

Hope you see this as an unlogged-in 'lurker', WhodaBear!

Pity I didn't see this earlier as I have lived in Scandinavia for nigh on 20 years and am familiar with snow, the cold and winter cycling! 

Seems some people who think cold weather is -20! 

PM me if you like, for a civil and informed/unbiased reply!

Good luck whatever you choose to do.


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## Crankarm (1 Sep 2010)

Hang on a minute .............. Whodabear who has very few posts comes on here asking for opinions on what can only be generously described as a very risky trip he has got planned. The chap asked for opinions. It wasn't as if he was going cycle touring in the Lake District in May/June but was intending to embark on a cycle tour in a very inhospitable and life threatening environment. What did he think the responses would be? Either he is extremely niave, didn't really consider the likely responses he might receive or that having received responses he finds they don't meet with his expectations and doesn't like them. 

Now forgive me for thinking this a little churlish or even spiteful to then post the final post that he did. The guy only has 12 posts, the majority of which were on this thread. So to say this guy will be missed, missed for what, I don't know? Entertainment value? Well at least he states that we have now put him off his cycling trip in Norway in deepest winter. We achieved something. It really was totally impractical and certain suicide. Maybe when he has been to Norway for medical training he referred to he will appreciate just what we were trying to tell him and come back on here to post a full apology to all including eating lots of humble pie in the process. Some how I won't hold my breath.


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## andyfromotley (1 Sep 2010)

whodabear, stop behaving like a sulky teenager! You are welcome on here and have livened T & E up no end. Your suggestion for an epic tour provoked some lively responses but if that has driven you from the forum then i think you are being tad over-sensitive. C'mon back wont you?


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## Jakey Rowling (2 Sep 2010)

Crankarm said:


> Hang on a minute .............. Whodabear who has very few posts comes on here asking for opinions



Well I realise that I fall firmly in to the category of those who have 'very few posts' but I would like to point out that the OP did not come on here asking for opinions on his tour idea but rather came on to seek answers to six very specific questions. IMO he did receive some very good answers but unfortunately a number of people who didn't really have any answers to his questions decided they'd chip in with their opinions anyway...


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## Kirstie (2 Sep 2010)

Jakey Rowling said:


> Well I realise that I fall firmly in to the category of those who have 'very few posts' but I would like to point out that the OP did not come on here asking for opinions on his tour idea but rather came on to seek answers to six very specific questions. IMO he did receive some very good answers but unfortunately a number of people who didn't really have any answers to his questions decided they'd chip in with their opinions anyway...




WELCOME TO THE INTERNET


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## Crankarm (2 Sep 2010)

Jakey Rowling said:


> Well I realise that I fall firmly in to the category of those who have 'very few posts' but I would like to point out that the OP did not come on here asking for opinions on his tour idea but rather came on to seek answers to six very specific questions. IMO he did receive some very good answers but unfortunately a number of people who didn't really have any answers to his questions decided they'd chip in with their opinions anyway...



:troll: .


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