# Statutory rights



## TonyD163 (21 Nov 2022)

Hi all I bought 2 hybrid bikes 2 months ago for our motorhome wasn't looking to spend loads as won't be used alot after the first outing and being fully charged they both ran out around the 10 mile mark took them both back tyres were on 20 psi not 40 and 1 charger was faulty and changed went out yesterday 1 bike on low setting the other on medium we both weigh nearly the same
Hers Ran out 10.4 miles on medium
Mine ran out 10.9 miles on low (there were no hills totally flat)

The selling point on these bikes were 20miles and reviews were showing that it was 4th in performance value for money etc out of 27 electric hybrid bikes 
They for us are no good can I return them for a full refund used twice 2 months old thanks people


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## ebikeerwidnes (21 Nov 2022)

I find tyre pressures make a big difference
as do thetype of tyres - knobbly ones look good and are great on muddy tracks - no so good at saving power on nice flat roads

obviously hills make a difference as well - as does how hard you are pedalling and how fast you go

but those ranges sound very low anyway

what makes and model are they?


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## Sharky (21 Nov 2022)

You may be getting into a grey area for returning the bikes. If you were buying goods from the big stores, they usually have a no quibble returns policy for so many days. Once the no quibble period has expired, they would no doubt exchange or refund faulty items. 

But in your example, the return is being based on the range being only 10 miles compared to an advertised 20 miles. So it's going to depend on the exact wording in the T&C's. The 20mph quote, could be stated as a "typical" range, based on a substantial amount of riding being above 15mph, when the electric motor would cut out. If your style of riding is predominantly electric powered, then a range of 10 miles might be within expectations. 

Was it a walk in shop or an online retailer you bought it from?


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## tom73 (21 Nov 2022)

+1 for what @Sharky said may all come down to fine print.


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## fossyant (21 Nov 2022)

It's also colder at the moment and batteries don't last long. What bikes are they ?


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## Ming the Merciless (21 Nov 2022)

What speed were you travelling at, and what was wind doing? The range will vary based on that, if flat.


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## TonyD163 (21 Nov 2022)

Sharky said:


> You may be getting into a grey area for returning the bikes. If you were buying goods from the big stores, they usually have a no quibble returns policy for so many days. Once the no quibble period has expired, they would no doubt exchange or refund faulty items.
> 
> But in your example, the return is being based on the range being only 10 miles compared to an advertised 20 miles. So it's going to depend on the exact wording in the T&C's. The 20mph quote, could be stated as a "typical" range, based on a substantial amount of riding being above 15mph, when the electric motor would cut out. If your style of riding is predominantly electric powered, then a range of 10 miles might be within expectations.
> 
> Was it a walk in shop or an online retailer you bought it from?



Halfords
They have just got the bikes back this morning no refund after 28 days but are fully testing them even they thought about 18 miles so now having to wait for their report


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## TonyD163 (21 Nov 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> I find tyre pressures make a big difference
> as do thetype of tyres - knobbly ones look good and are great on muddy tracks - no so good at saving power on nice flat roads
> 
> obviously hills make a difference as well - as does how hard you are pedalling and how fast you go
> ...



Both bikes have 40psi as per 
Assist is the bike name Halfords on label in-store show upto 20 online 10 to 15 average
In the manufacture hand book 15 to 20 
Totally flat ridden and have to peddle all the time as bike motor only pulls you along a few metres before you need to pedal again max range in low mode constantly peddling 10.4 miles


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## TonyD163 (21 Nov 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> What speed were you travelling at, and what was wind doing? The range will vary based on that, if flat.



Hi I'm 61 not fit peddling quite slowly I'm in lowest setting there are no gears on Halfords assist bike not windy and totally flat 
Speed possibly 10mph
Battery is 4.7ah 24v( 115 w I think)
Manufacture hand book shows 15 to 20
Halfords on line show average 10-15 upto 20
In-store which is why I purchased only shows with price upto 20 miles and store said about 18-20


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## TonyD163 (21 Nov 2022)

tom73 said:


> +1 for what @Sharky said may all come down to fine print.



Unfortunately no fine print to read on the sales ticket


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## TonyD163 (21 Nov 2022)

fossyant said:


> It's also colder at the moment and batteries don't last long. What bikes are they ?



Tried in October when warmer and yesterday bikes kept inside lol


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## KnittyNorah (21 Nov 2022)

What everyone else has said. 

However.

I bet the small print says something like 'Up to 20 miles range under optimum conditions'. 
This could easily be a perfectly genuine - if somewhat misleading - claim for a very small battery on a heavy bike as it depends what those 'optimum conditions' are! The 'optimum conditions' described - if indeed they are described anywhere - are probably highly unlikely to be attained by any normal person in north western Europe at any time of the year unless they are riding on a climate-controlled test track. Surface. Tyre pressure. Saddle height. Slope. Position of rider. Wind speed and direction. Temperature. Weight of rider. Cadence of pedalling. Usage of gears. Altitude. Air pressure. Probably humidity, angle of the sunshine and phase of the moon are all specified under 'optimum conditions' as well as the rider's body proportions, percentage of fat/muscle/bone and length of limbs. And what they had for breakfast. Meet all those conditions and THEN expect to get a little less (they did say 'up to') than 20 miles ..

I did extensive research on e-bikes last year, travelling to several places in the country to try out different ones, and sadly came to the conclusion that most (not saying all, I haven't seen them all) of those in the lower price ranges were little more than expensive, heavy toys rather than tools for truly practical use. So I bought a non-e-bike as I live in a flat area, and I continue to look into the possibilities for a useful conversion.


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## cougie uk (21 Nov 2022)

TonyD163 said:


> Hi all I bought 2 hybrid bikes 2 months ago for our motorhome wasn't looking to spend loads as won't be used alot after the first outing and being fully charged they both ran out around the 10 mile mark took them both back tyres were on 20 psi not 40 and 1 charger was faulty and changed went out yesterday 1 bike on low setting the other on medium we both weigh nearly the same
> Hers Ran out 10.4 miles on medium
> Mine ran out 10.9 miles on low (there were no hills totally flat)
> 
> ...



Even 40psi sounds low to me - presumably they're something like 40mm tyres ?

As has been said - temperature will lower the range. As will the effort you're putting in. And headwinds and bulky clothing. 

I'm sure you'll get a better range in the summer. 

What size batteries do you have ?


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## BoldonLad (21 Nov 2022)

TonyD163 said:


> Hi all I bought 2 hybrid bikes 2 months ago for our motorhome wasn't looking to spend loads as won't be used alot after the first outing and being fully charged they both ran out around the 10 mile mark took them both back tyres were on 20 psi not 40 and 1 charger was faulty and changed went out yesterday 1 bike on low setting the other on medium we both weigh nearly the same
> Hers Ran out 10.4 miles on medium
> Mine ran out 10.9 miles on low (there were no hills totally flat)
> 
> ...



As others have said, tyre pressures (we use 70psi), temperature, wind direction/speed, speed, weight of rider (and luggage, if any), terrain, surface type all have an impact on Battery Range. However, 20 miles range seems exceedingly low, most have (claimed) ranges of 50 miles+. What brand and model are the bikes, what sort of price range, what is the battery size?

Personally, I think your chances of a successful refund depend very much on where you bought them, and, how you paid for them (Credit/Debit may provide some redress).


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## fossyant (21 Nov 2022)

Erm,

Assist E20 bike:-

The blurb on the Halfords site does actually say average range is 10-15 miles, so it's correct. Pop a bit more air in those tyres and see how far you get next time.

They are very very cheap for electric bikes, and things like the motor and battery won't be the best.


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## fossyant (21 Nov 2022)

It's also a tiny battery at 4.8Ah !


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## KnittyNorah (21 Nov 2022)

Honestly that is a toy, and probably not a very well-made toy at that.


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## tom73 (21 Nov 2022)

fossyant said:


> It's also a tiny battery at 4.8Ah !



oh that's a problem.


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## ebikeerwidnes (21 Nov 2022)

Given the price and stated range then I can see what you mean now I have looked at the spec on the Halfords website

I suspect the low tyre pressure might not help. I suspect that this is due to cheap tyres fitted as standard and putting better tyres on with a much higher pressure range would help a bit - but given the cost it may not be worth it until the current tyres wear out

It is the battery that is the problem. It is very low capacity - which is to be expected at that price and the expected range confirms it.
It would be possible t have it re-celled with more and better cells - which would increase the range but comes at a cost of over £200 - which shows why the bike is so cheap.

As you have said - the bike is single speed - which is another point showing they have made it down to a price. Fitting gears (if possible) would help if the electronics detect how much effort you are putting in and reacts to it - but cheap ebikes I have tried just seem to detect that the pedals are going round and kick the motor in - so you get about the same power delivered whether you are just gently pushing the pedals around or pushing them as hard as you can.
A more expensive ebike would have a torque detector that reacts to your effort..
I am sounding like I am saying it is a rubbsih bike - but in reality it looks like a pretty good attempt to produce a useable ebike at a low price - albeit having to produce a range of only about 10-15 miles in order to do it


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## Dadam (21 Nov 2022)

TonyD163 said:


> Both bikes have 40psi as per
> Assist is the bike name Halfords on label in-store show upto 20 online 10 to 15 average
> In the manufacture hand book 15 to 20
> Totally flat ridden and *have to peddle all the time as bike motor only pulls you along a few metres* before you need to pedal again max range in low mode constantly peddling 10.4 miles



What you typed above (I've bolded) is correct. Legal ebikes in the UK only give pedal _assist_. You have to pedal all the time to get the assist. The pedals aren't just to get you moving and then the motor takes over, that's not how they are designed to work.

Re stautory rights. Have a read of this:

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/r...g's faulty – in other,, repair or part-refund.

It seems to me the bikes were as described, as you were getting within the range stated on the website which seems to be 10-15 miles, albeit only just. But then again if you were expecting to just set off on the pedals and then coast on the motor assist, the motor would be working harder and would give a lower range.
Even so you might be able to argue a case on the basis of the bikes being not fit for your purpose, especially if the salesman led you to expect 20 miles. 

If you bought them on credit card, you could claim a Section 75 refund from the credit card company and you're sorted. If not you'll have to argue your case with Halfords.


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## CXRAndy (21 Nov 2022)

Cold weather will have a huge impact on range. Charging to full just before you go out for a ride is a method of getting the most out of the range. Having the battery warm by keeping them indoors greatly helps. Wrapping the battery to keep them from wind chill will also help a little 

Here are our batteries -now stored indoors until may April/May next


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## CXRAndy (21 Nov 2022)

Rule of thumb- if you want 20 miles get a bike that has a range of 50 = no disappointments


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## Alex321 (22 Nov 2022)

TonyD163 said:


> Hi I'm 61 not fit peddling quite slowly I'm in lowest setting there are no gears on Halfords assist bike not windy and totally flat
> Speed possibly 10mph
> Battery is 4.7ah 24v( 115 w I think)
> Manufacture hand book shows 15 to 20
> ...



Unfortunately, without evidence, store staff saying 18-20 isn't going to mean much.

Up to 20 means that is the maximum, which will only be achievable with a lightweight rider who is pedalling fairly effectively.

As you say, online it says 10-15 miles, and your 10 is within that. I doubt you really have any comeback, beyond relying on the goodwill of th store.
They do also say only :

*Range*:*
All electric bikes indicate a maximum mileage range that they can cover on a single battery charge. *This is the furthest range in ideal conditions*; however, this range can be impacted by a number of factors:

• The combined weight of the rider and any luggage.
• The assistance mode selected.
• The cycling route (e.g. type of terrain and inclines).
• Temperature and climate (e.g. cold weather will decrease the performance of the battery).
• Tyre pressure.
• Wind speed and direction.


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## icowden (22 Nov 2022)

TonyD163 said:


> Unfortunately no fine print to read on the sales ticket



Actually there should be. By that range claim there is an asterix indicating that there should be a footnote on the ticket giving more detail. You could pick them up on that and point out that as printed, it is reasonable to assume a 20 mile range as the detail of the "up to" is not elucidated.

I would imagine that the footnote says something like "20 miles achievable in testing by a 7 stone adult on the flat with a tail wind and severe flatus".

Actually - I just spotted that @Alex321 has found the asterisk.


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## fossyant (22 Nov 2022)

Unfortunately the bike is cheap as chips rubbish. Yes its not cheap, but everything about it is. Decent batteries and motors cost more than £500


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## tom73 (22 Nov 2022)

As others have said at that price point it's as good as you're going to get. If you did ask questions and told what turns out to not add up then you may have a chance of getting something back. All down to Halfords and if paid by card the card issuer the chance is on the face of its slim.


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## BoldonLad (22 Nov 2022)

fossyant said:


> Unfortunately the bike is cheap as chips *rubbish.* Yes its not cheap, but everything about it is. Decent batteries and motors cost more than £500



That is, IMHO, a trifle harsh. The bike is fit for purpose, for some users, but, it would appear, not for the intended use of the purchaser, in this instance.

I do hope the OP gets some redress, perhaps, Halfords will take the bikes back, and do a deal on one of their eBikes with a more powerful battery, and, higher specification motor?


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## CXRAndy (22 Nov 2022)

If Halfords wont give you back you money. The next best option is to get a bigger battery pack 24V 500-750W, then the bike will do what you require. 

Chinese site Alibaba has batteries listed-£100 plus delivery, taxes. 

Would require a bracket making or modifying to work and new connection. Doable if practical


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## fossyant (22 Nov 2022)

BoldonLad said:


> That is, IMHO, a trifle harsh. The bike is fit for purpose, for some users, but, it would appear, not for the intended use of the purchaser, in this instance.
> 
> I do hope the OP gets some redress, perhaps, Halfords will take the bikes back, and do a deal on one of their eBikes with a more powerful battery, and, higher specification motor?



Hardly harsh. True. You've got to spend double that to get a useable electric bike.

£500 would have got a decent lightweight hybrid pedal bike. Money is just lost there with a heavy bike and crap motor and poor battery. Bet its a pig to pedal with no assist.


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## roubaixtuesday (22 Nov 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Unfortunately, without evidence, store staff saying 18-20 isn't going to mean much.
> 
> Up to 20 means that is the maximum, which will only be achievable with a lightweight rider who is pedalling fairly effectively.
> 
> ...



The range quoted is 10-15 miles; you got 10. It's exactly what I would have expected. 

Claiming mis-selling in shop if they quoted 20 is your only recourse. 

There's also, sadly, a more general lesson: the very cheapest model of anything is likely to be rubbish.


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## icowden (22 Nov 2022)

roubaixtuesday said:


> Claiming mis-selling in shop if they quoted 20 is your only recourse.


And the problem there is that the label that @Alex321 posted clearly states "up to 20 miles". That "up to" is very important.


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## tom73 (22 Nov 2022)

icowden said:


> And the problem there is that the label that @Alex321 posted clearly states "up to 20 miles". That "up to" is very important.


The * is clearly shown so the range was never going to be a given. 



fossyant said:


> Hardly harsh. True. You've got to spend double that to get a useable electric bike.
> 
> £500 would have got a decent lightweight hybrid pedal bike. Money is just lost there with a heavy bike and crap motor and poor battery. Bet its a pig to pedal with no assist.



Your only telling the truth 
I thought the same decent e-bike for less than decent hybrid was never going to happen. Be like a tank once the powers gone.


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## fossyant (22 Nov 2022)

icowden said:


> And the problem there is that the label that @Alex321 posted clearly states "up to 20 miles". That "up to" is very important.



It's something I've advised my dad about - take the upto with a pinch of salt. You want double realistically to guarantee you'll get back - PS he's mid 70's and likes to ride up the seafront in North Wales - 5-6 miles each way, but I said one with a range of 40 miles will get you home on high assist if it's blowing a strong headwind (wind changes on the tide often).


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## icowden (23 Nov 2022)

fossyant said:


> It's something I've advised my dad about - take the upto with a pinch of salt.


"Up to" is a very clever marketing technique. A mostly meaning less statement that allows you to make a legitimate claim under minimal circumstances.

For example

"UP TO 90% OFF IN OUR SALE!!!!"

Translation:-

"We have at least one product in the sale which is 90% cheaper that it was originally when we sold it. Yes, it is the product that nobody bought because it's horrible / useless / pointless. Everything else is just 10% off."


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## bonzobanana (24 Nov 2022)

I saw a couple of these the other day while I was walking seemed pretty decent casual type ebikes. For quite sometime Halfords sold these at £299 without being a discount offer and then as we all know prices started to increase dramatically due to various world events. Where as most ebikes are well over 250W despite their rating this is one of the few ebikes that is actually below it. It's realistically between 140-180W and would peak at 250W at best momentarily. I think the torque level is around 10-15Nm perhaps 20Nm absolute peak. 

You have to factor in the battery is only 24V which is quite rare now and only a very small capacity of 4.8Ah so likely 2 cells in parallel (2400mAh) x 8 in series (8S2P) this won't be able to provide much current to the motor. A quick look at some 2400mAh cells show less than 5A for maximum continuous current draw (which you wouldn't want to do) and 2x5Ax24V is 240W absolute peak output. We know the bike only lasts about 10 miles realistically and I guess this bike might travel at 12-15mph average? You need 250Wh to power a motor for 250W for an hour and this is less than half of that plus you have to leave some reserve capacity in the battery to protect it. 

I thought at £299 it was a very good deal as long as you understand the limitations. As its single gear very little maintenance but also means no high gearing meaning many cyclists will use electric power constantly because the bike speed unassisted is limited by the gearing.

Possible upgrades a 3 speed hub on the rear and of course a bigger battery as stated already. Then perhaps a great little commuting bike with extremely good reliability and all weather use plus with a bigger battery a very high range. The issue here is it only provides light assistance and a single gear so really you need to have a reasonable level of fitness. It's effectively two wheel drive, motor at the front and you at the rear and the motor works independently of the drivetrain so massively extends chain and sprocket lifespan. The motor being on the front means less weight on the bearings and there is not enough power here to worry about lack of grip at the front. It looks fairly non-proprietary so no issues customising the bike as you wish and extending its life with replacement parts both for the bike itself and the electrical parts. 

It's got a lifetime warranty on the frame and forks and a high 120kg rider weight rating. Many so called quality ebikes are 120kg total load (including ebikes weighing over 20kg so rider weight is well below 100kg) and often have shorter warranties on the frame. This ebike however is structurally very strong but very weak for motor power.


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## BoldonLad (24 Nov 2022)

bonzobanana said:


> I saw a couple of these the other day while I was walking seemed pretty decent casual type ebikes. For quite sometime Halfords sold these at £299 without being a discount offer and then as we all know prices started to increase dramatically due to various world events. Where as most ebikes are well over 250W despite their rating this is one of the few ebikes that is actually below it. It's realistically between 140-180W and would peak at 250W at best momentarily. I think the torque level is around 10-15Nm perhaps 20Nm absolute peak.
> 
> You have to factor in the battery is only 24V which is quite rare now and only a very small capacity of 4.8Ah so likely 2 cells in parallel (2400mAh) x 8 in series (8S2P) this won't be able to provide much current to the motor. A quick look at some 2400mAh cells show less than 5A for maximum continuous current draw (which you wouldn't want to do) and 2x5Ax24V is 240W absolute peak output. We know the bike only lasts about 10 miles realistically and I guess this bike might travel at 12-15mph average? You need 250Wh to power a motor for 250W for an hour and this is less than half of that plus you have to leave some reserve capacity in the battery to protect it.
> 
> ...



Exactly.


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## gbb (27 Nov 2022)

I saw one of these bikes in a cycle shed at our local hospital yesterday, tbf, it looked ok.
The thing is, if the owner lives say 4 or 5 miles away, that commute is easy with such a bike, charge it every day, no problem.
Its probably an OK bike for the money but it must be brought for the right circumstances. I'd tend to think 15 miles was the absolute max and never assume I'd realistically push it that far.


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## ericmark (28 Nov 2022)

I paid £750 second hand, it has a 12 Ah 48 volt battery, the gearing will only allow you to travel at 16 MPH simply can't turn the pedals any faster. It folds and will fit inside my Honda Jazz, although not in boot, but between front and rear seats, in the main carry it with the Kia Sorento with the bike rack, although it will fit inside with one rear seat folded. Not sure if legal as peak power 350 watt, but rules say continuous power not to exceed 250 watt, and likely within that, the software can be configured and I have it to allow throttle use, this is permitted under 4 MPH but the software does not actually cut out, so if a pedantic PC stopped me, he could likely say it was illegal.

I think this is unlikely unless I do something daft, but I am aware it could be a problem. It folds which means I can get it inside my cars and train, and without the electric it is still a reasonable mountain bike. 

The 16 mile trip Welshpool and back it will just about do, the battery is at a point where the last hill to home is a problem, but it will just about do it with some hard pushing on my part.

I did try Shrewsbury to Welshpool following Google maps, which avoided most of the main roads, direct route 18.7 miles, Google route more like 25 miles, I did not make it, had to cycle last 4 miles without assistance. Lucky flat bit. But this is with a 12 Ah 48 volt battery, so far larger than you have. 

Not tried the Shrewsbury to Welshpool with wife's bike, her has a mid motor which works through the gears, but looking at £1750 so expect more, however the dirt tracks google took me on, not sure her bike is realy man enough for the trip? 

But the range you are getting with such a small battery is quite impressive seems a really good buy.


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