# #TooCloseForComfort kickstarter



## Spinney (9 Mar 2017)

Cycling UK have started a kickstarter campaign to raise £12 000 to buy 'safe passing mats' for police forces.

Worth sticking in a tenner, or money wasted?


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## Drago (9 Mar 2017)

Money wasted for multiple reasons.


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## theclaud (9 Mar 2017)

Can't they just chalk it on the tarmac????


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## Pro Tour Punditry (9 Mar 2017)

Send me £12,000 and if any driver gets too close to me I'll shout at them, that'll learn them...


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## EltonFrog (9 Mar 2017)

What @theclaud said. She is the voice of all reason.


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## martint235 (9 Mar 2017)

Looks like Cycling UK doing their typical nobbishness. Best to stay clear.

as TC says, what's wrong with a bit of chalk


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## steveindenmark (9 Mar 2017)

Have they abolished taxes in the UK?


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## winjim (9 Mar 2017)

Use a piece of chalk and it runs the risk of not looking official enough and the police will just get accused of making it up. A proper piece of kit makes it all correct, calibrated and consistent so people might pay more attention. Remember that bad drivers will look for excuses to justify their driving and "it was just some copper with a piece of chalk" would provide just that excuse.

If the fuzz really do decide they need it then it should be funded out of driving penalty fines or something though. Maybe even general taxation if it's a genuinely useful policing tool. What's next, crowdfunded tasers?


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## martint235 (9 Mar 2017)

winjim said:


> Use a piece of chalk and it runs the risk of not looking official enough and the police will just get accused of making it up. A proper piece of kit makes it all correct, calibrated and consistent so people might pay more attention. Remember that bad drivers will look for excuses to justify their driving and "it was just some copper with a piece of chalk" would provide just that excuse.
> 
> If the fuzz really do decide they need it then it should be funded out of driving penalty fines or something though. Maybe even general taxation if it's a genuinely useful policing tool. What's next, crowdfunded tasers?


If you're pulled to one side by a copper who then demonstrates the correct distances by using a piece of chalk, how can you claim that wasn't official?

Also how many times can these mats be driven over before they fall to bits?

It's typical Cycling UK "look at us, look at us, this is what we're doing for you the poor, lowly cyclist" b******cks


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## winjim (9 Mar 2017)

martint235 said:


> If you're pulled to one side by a copper who then demonstrates the correct distances by using a piece of chalk, how can you claim that wasn't official?


Does the chalk come with a calibration certificate?


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## martint235 (9 Mar 2017)

winjim said:


> Does the chalk come with a calibration certificate?


Is the motorist going to ask to see one? How does the motorist know that any particular certificate applies to that particular mat? What happens if there'd been an error in the manufacturing process?

The chalk will come with a tape measure marked B+Q in the traditional way.


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## Milkfloat (9 Mar 2017)

I can just see the average Plod HQ receiving these mats and lobbing them in the back of a cupboard somewhere to be forgotten about - then in 5 years times someone gets them out to use them to beats a new recruit with some naked oily wrestling.

The mats themselves are useless if the Police don't supply the much needed manpower and willingness.

Oh - and I disagree with the 75cm line on the mat to show how close the cyclist should be to the curb. If I want to ride in primary I will.


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## winjim (9 Mar 2017)

martint235 said:


> Is the motorist going to ask to see one? How does the motorist know that any particular certificate applies to that particular mat? What happens if there'd been an error in the manufacturing process?


Quality management, innit. People have got off drink driving charges due to poor analyser quality control record keeping on the part of the police.

Anyway, my point is really that the aim of the exercise is driver education. I think a lot of drivers might be reluctant to have their driving ability scrutinised, so it might be necessary to employ a bit of theatre so they realise it's a big deal.


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## winjim (9 Mar 2017)

User said:


> Do the mats?


Maybe not, but they _look_ like they do, which might be the important bit.

Agree with @Milkfloat about the 75cm line being bollocks though.


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## Sharky (9 Mar 2017)

Pledged £10.
I always say - "if your not part of the solution, you must be part of the problem"


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## martint235 (9 Mar 2017)

Sharky said:


> Pledged £10.
> I always say - "if your not part of the solution, you must be part of the problem"


I don't suppose you want to buy a bridge??

I don't have a problem with the idea of showing motorists in a graphical way just how much room should be given (similar to the videos showing cyclists just how wide the door zone can be) but even if this was the best way to do this, I would still be extremely loathe to give £10 to Cycling UK for it. I'm loathe to pay them affiliated subs let alone give them more money to waste.


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## glasgowcyclist (9 Mar 2017)

User said:


> I don't think that's what it's there for - I think it's demonstrating the minimum distance from the kerb that the cyclist should be.



The problem is that its intention is unclear and open to different interpretations.

The 0.75m bit should be removed because it doesn't matter where the cyclist is positioned, it's the passing distance given by the driver that matters.


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## Spinney (9 Mar 2017)

The 0.75 m bit could be there as it is easier to think of the safe passing distance as twice the distance between the bike and the kerb. I don't think many drivers (probably including me) really know what 1.5 m beyond my vehicle looks like.

Of course, that idea means that a kerb-hugging cyclist could well get a very close pass...


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## glasgowcyclist (9 Mar 2017)

User said:


> Absolutely - but without somewhere to measure that passing distance from, the mat as an infographic won't work...



I don't follow your reasoning, the passing distance is measured from cyclist to car, nothing else matters.


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## Phaeton (9 Mar 2017)

winjim said:


> Quality management, innit. People have got off drink driving charges due to poor analyser quality control record keeping on the part of the police.
> 
> Anyway, my point is really that the aim of the exercise is driver education. I think a lot of drivers might be reluctant to have their driving ability scrutinised, so it might be necessary to employ a bit of theatre so they realise it's a big deal.


The thought of an office having to pull somebody over, take a mat out of the back of the patrol car, lay it on the ground, position his/her car in the right place, nab a passing cyclist or will they also have a bike in the boot? Sorry but the suggestion is totally laughable.

These ought to be set-up at the VOSA/DVLA depots around the country, using a piece of existing kerb, the lines could be painted on the tarmac correctly. When an officer sees somebody who they believe has passed too closely they can be pulled over & made to attend an awareness course/lecture within x weeks or face a fine for non-attendance. I'm sure that there are a few reasons why this is not feasible currently, but there is no reason why it couldn't be made to happen.


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## martint235 (9 Mar 2017)

Phaeton said:


> The thought of an office having to pull somebody over, take a mat out of the back of the patrol car, lay it on the ground, position his/her car in the right place, nab a passing cyclist or will they also have a bike in the boot? Sorry but the suggestion is totally laughable.
> 
> These ought to be set-up at the VOSA/DVLA depots around the country, using a piece of existing kerb, the lines could be painted on the tarmac correctly. When an officer sees somebody who they believe has passed too closely they can be pulled over & made to attend an awareness course/lecture within x weeks or face a fine for non-attendance. I'm sure that there are a few reasons why this is not feasible currently, but there is no reason why it couldn't be made to happen.


That's a bit close to common sense!!! You realise you're still on CycleChat don't you??


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## Phaeton (9 Mar 2017)

martint235 said:


> That's a bit close to common sense!!! You realise you're still on CycleChat don't you??


Sorry I'll go stand in the corner


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## winjim (9 Mar 2017)

Phaeton said:


> The thought of an office having to pull somebody over, take a mat out of the back of the patrol car, lay it on the ground, position his/her car in the right place, nab a passing cyclist or will they also have a bike in the boot? Sorry but the suggestion is totally laughable.
> 
> These ought to be set-up at the VOSA/DVLA depots around the country, using a piece of existing kerb, the lines could be painted on the tarmac correctly. When an officer sees somebody who they believe has passed too closely they can be pulled over & made to attend an awareness course/lecture within x weeks or face a fine for non-attendance. I'm sure that there are a few reasons why this is not feasible currently, but there is no reason why it couldn't be made to happen.


It was done in West Mids with plain clothed coppers on bikes recording close passes with a uniformed copper with mat, flagging offenders down a bit further up the road. So it was a semi-permanent setup. I think the plain clothed coppers on bikes are a necessary lure, if they just drove around town looking out for drivers close passing cyclists I can't see it working.

Why would they need a bike for the demo though? The mat / chalk / whatever shows the position of the bike, that's the point of it. Although I do agree it would be better with a real bike. Factor in the dynamic envelope, a set of panniers and the odd wobble, and a bike can get pretty wide, which I don't think you can really show all that well with a line on the road.


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## Phaeton (9 Mar 2017)

Advantage of having it as a permanent site is also you could force the perpetrator to ride the bike whilst Police cars go pass them at 30mph


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## srw (9 Mar 2017)

It's a witty, cheap bit of publicity material, not an attempt to change the world. The concept isn't the CTC's, it's West Midlands Police's - it's part of their highly successful campaign to make roads feel safer by reducing close passing. It's part of encouraging people to cycle on the roads.

Given all that, I think some people are allowing their knee-jerk negative response to anything involving the CTC to override their logical minds.

After a couple of hours, 73 people have contributed over £1,000. There are still bath mats, mouse mats and The Office Matt available, but the beer mats have gone.


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## Milkfloat (9 Mar 2017)

A police bike with a 1.5m sharp stick attached sideways off the rear should do it. That way he policeman can just ride around and 'key' any driver who is too close. No need to worry about a mat or the 75cm line.


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## glasgowcyclist (9 Mar 2017)

User said:


> how does it do that without actually having marks on it to show where the cyclist is and where the car should be? And how does it convey all the different scenarios? And not inadvertently reinforce negative messages?



Maybe something like this?


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## jefmcg (9 Mar 2017)

Milkfloat said:


> I can just see the average Plod HQ receiving these mats and lobbing them in the back of a cupboard somewhere to be forgotten about .



Yes.

"We've already been speaking with police forces across the UK to gauge the attraction of having a close pass mat, and have the support of the officers behind West Midlands Police original initiative."

Shouldn't they get buy-in from the forces they plan to give these mats to, before asking for money? What happens if they are funded, but no other police force wants the mats?


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## jefmcg (9 Mar 2017)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Maybe something like this?


Seeing the accompanying photo suggests the cyclist is on the line rather than inside it as the mat and this image seem to indicate, I'd suggest this:


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## mjr (9 Mar 2017)

I've mixed feelings about this. Cyclists shouldn't have to fund this sort of stuff - it seems too close to paying twice (aka keeping a dog and barking oneself), as cycling isn't getting its fair share of transport and policing budgets.

Also, I felt that it was mostly-urban constabularies that were most likely to imitate Operation Close Pass, while rural ones seemed keener on North Wales's Operation Snap (bike and dash cam evidence), so this seems like CTC/CUK urban bias again.

I guess city cyclists may feel it's worth funding but it seems like a distraction to me.


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## snorri (9 Mar 2017)

User said:


> I don't have a drawing package to hand...but I'd simply have the cyclist 'any distance' bit covering the whole of the lane and make it clear that the motor vehicle should go into the other lane to overtake. Then it's plain and simple.


Which is my interpretation of the existing Highway Code advice for drivers overtaking cyclists.


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## glasgowcyclist (9 Mar 2017)

jefmcg said:


> Seeing the accompanying photo suggests the cyclist is on the line rather than inside it as the mat and this image seem to indicate, I'd suggest this:
> View attachment 341535



Why have you done a half-finished drawing of the crucifixion!?


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## Markymark (9 Mar 2017)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Why have you done a half-finished drawing of the crucifixion!?


Jesus's half brother?


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## Markymark (9 Mar 2017)

User said:


> Have you been reading Dan Brown again?


My 5 year old is half way through one of his. She's using it as a stepping stone before tackling the harder book about a hungry caterpillar.


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## jefmcg (9 Mar 2017)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Why have you done a half-finished drawing of the crucifixion!?


Yeah, it's not ideal, but my google fu let me down trying to find an overhead image of a cyclist.


User said:


> At which point, the mat becomes redundant because it is quite correctly clearance from where the cyclist is, not from the gutter.



I thought the point of the mat was to show a driver how far 1.5m. Instead of saying to a driver "you have to stay 1.5 metres from a cyclist" which might get an honest, if incorrect "yeah, I did", the police can say "you have to stay *THIS* far" and show them.

The .75m thing seems like a distraction.


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## Spinney (9 Mar 2017)

User said:


> I don't have a drawing package to hand...
> 
> but I'd simply have the cyclist 'any distance' bit covering the whole of the lane and make it clear that the motor vehicle should go into the other lane to overtake. Then it's plain and simple.


Not all roads have another lane. So the passing distance _is _relevant for drivers on such roads.
And on an urban roads with parked cars, just going into the other lane is likely to be too close. So the passing distance _is _relevant in some situations on roads with a lane each way as well.


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## Spinney (9 Mar 2017)

User said:


> Those are so few as to be something of a diversion really. I live in an area where there are quite a few roads like that and I have little if any problems with drivers on those roads - as they face the same issues with other drivers - and they tend to give plenty of room. It's the roads with lane markings that are the real issue.


I live in an area where there are quite a few roads with no lane markings in the middle. I ride on them a lot and rarely get close passes. But I _do_ get the occasional one and I don't agree that this kind of road is not the issue.


> If you can't get into the other lane properly, then don't overtake.


My point was that even if you can get into the other lane properly, you could be too close if the cyclist is cycling past parked cars. If they are allowing enough space to be outside the door zone, they could be cycling almost on the centreline of the road, in which case on many roads a car overtaking could be too close even if completely in the other lane.



> The problem with giving specific distances is that they are difficult to judge when you are in a vehicle.


I assume the police could invite the car driver to place their car on/near the mat to let them see what that distance looks like from their car? As others have said, though, it would be helpful if there was a bike there.


> It also gives the impression that is all that you should give.


Presumably up to the coppers to emphasize this is a minimum distance.


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## jefmcg (10 Mar 2017)

It's going to get funded. Any minute now.


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## Sharky (10 Mar 2017)

Looks like the £12k target has been reached!


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## subaqua (10 Mar 2017)

How about buying a lot of 4x2 the correct size , then getting the driver to kneel how close he thinks is safe or the distance he was judged to be at from a starting point , then swinging the 4x2 from the start point . 

That would sort it sharpishi think


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## Drago (10 Mar 2017)

Excellent news. Now they can buy a a quarter of a policeman to go use them


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## marknotgeorge (10 Mar 2017)

Markymark said:


> My 5 year old is half way through one of his. She's using it as a stepping stone before tackling the harder book about a hungry caterpillar.


Look, if you're going to borrow the kids' books, leave them where they can reach them when you've finished!


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## hatler (11 Mar 2017)

About the only positive thing to say about this is that at least they're not wasting their own money.


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## theclaud (12 Mar 2017)

Chris Juden is unamused:

_"Fed up with dangerous overtaking that's too close for comfort?" Says Paul Touhy in a recent circular email.

Yes Paul, I am. That's why I voted FOR motion 14 at the last AGM, calling for a legal minimum passing distance. Where were you on that one Paul? Oh I remember, you got your tame Councillors to stamp all over it! First with a disagreeable response in Cycle magazine, secondly at the meeting and thirdly, in spite of having lost the argument not only with those in the room but also 'postal' votes, by dumping all of the unthinking votes vested in the Chair, onto the hitherto almost empty NO side of the balance! 

Having been told by your "reluctant to specify" Council that "even 1.5m may not be enough in some circumstances and we don't want to give drivers the idea that it is." I find that picture of you enthusiastically specifying precisely 1.5m, quite ironic. Please explain why this is a terribly bad idea when it comes from the CTC grassroots, the members who pay your wages Paul, in case you forgot, but a terribly good idea when it's yours?

I remember the days when CTC was a bottom-up organisation, when I for one was proud to serve the members. Seems to me that CUK is well and truly top-down, with members mere foot-soldiers in campaigns directed by staff. 

But wait, it isn't your idea is it Paul. You got this from Manchester Police. CTC would've and CUK could've led the way, if only staff and council didn't have a knee-jerk response to anything suggested by long-time CTC members. But instead taking the initiative in this and so many recent campaigns, CUK is reduced to the status of a 'waggoner'! 

So: you want a tenner from me do you Paul, for this campaign that was such a bad idea only ten months ago? Some cheek! If you'd asked me before the 7th May 2016, you'd have got it. But if you want my money now you're going to have to eat some humble pie, apologise on behalf of Staff and Council for their short-sighted and unnecessarily damning response to Colin Clarke's popular and non-controversial motion, and promise to pay more heed in future to people who've been members of CTC a whole lot longer than you._​


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## Milkfloat (12 Mar 2017)

Ouch.


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## Milkfloat (12 Mar 2017)

User said:


> Temporarily maybe. If it gets us back the CTC, all to the good.



I think that ship sailed a long time ago.


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## srw (12 Mar 2017)

Milkfloat said:


> Ouch.


How to win friends and influence people...


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## hatler (12 Mar 2017)

Cool letter. Oh that I could pen something so sharp.


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## ufkacbln (13 Mar 2017)

I remember back in the day when they used to put cardboard Police cars on flyovers and "stopping bays" to enforce road safety

I would have thought that a cutout Police Officer would have been a better investment


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