# Health, Fatness and Training



## GrumpyGregry (3 Sep 2012)

actually less of the training, it is, after all, a form of cheating.

The lovely Helen has ordained she would like me to lose the gut, the beer belly, the spare tyre, in short I am to put off the middle-aged middle I've spent years, an considerable expense, acquiring.

Not going to single mindedly try and lose weight, _per se_, more try redistribute what I already have, as I've some off-road goals that require better core/upper body condition. But inevitably weight will come off. I'm currently, and officially, according to my GP, one of the fat-fit. BMI is borderline obese and certainly overweight but it ain't stopping me doing owt and I've a pretty active lifestyle.

I have been given a copy of "How to lose your middle-aged middle" by one who has worked a remarkable transformation on himself by following its principles. It's basically a low-carb diet.

Hands up if you've done a low-carb diet and found it compatible with cycling? My normal workload is 40km/2 hours round trip three four times a week commuting and the odd 100 - 200km road ride once or twice a month at weekends, and a 50km road or 35km off road ride at least once each of the other weekends. I don't drink Sunday night to Friday afternoon. From the middle of this month I'll be helping out on a learn-to-run course three times a week (if my hip will let me).

What has been your experience of racking up the miles whilst dropping the pounds? Is low carb a no-no? Should I engage with the tedium that is calorie counting? Should I fast Tuesday and Thursdays? Do I just need to accept feeling hungry all the time?


----------



## srw (3 Sep 2012)

GregCollins said:


> Should I engage with the tedium that is calorie counting? Should I fast Tuesday and Thursdays? Do I just need to accept feeling hungry all the time?


Yes. No. No.

Strict, tedious calorie counting (whether weightwatchers points or pure calories) is the _only_ thing that has ever worked for me - to the tune of 5 or 6 stone over the same number of years. And we have similar physiques, similar likes and similar physical regimes (although you ride more and I go to the gym under the supervision of a PT).

I find that if I eat (and drink) less I _want_ to to eat less - although the desire for alcohol doesn't go away. So I have to be absolutely strict about cutting out the booze too (which is good for me in other ways).

I'm no great scientist, but low-carb diets sound to me like absolute junk science - especially for someone active. And now I've got LonJoG, my birthday and my ride to Paris out of the way I am due to start again with proper restricted eating.


----------



## Falwheeler (3 Sep 2012)

I find that keeping a food diary helps, be honest and put everything down. It's surprising but I find it works, even though you're the only one reading it
you think twice about picking up those crisps or chocolate knowing that it's has to go in the diary.


----------



## ttcycle (3 Sep 2012)

Greg, I really think that the low carb thing will be a very bad idea with your activity levels. By all means reduce the carb and portion size and introduce more protein and a bit more healthy fats (nuts/olive oil etc) Food diary Fatwheeler suggested sounds like a good idea - you might just be eating too much of things that aren't good for you.

If there's anyway to link up with others so that there's some sort of accountability with the weight loss? A buddy system or something online?

Good luck, this stuff isn't easy but you've lost a fair amount already- just the last bit and some solid discipline. You can do it!


----------



## srw (3 Sep 2012)

ttcycle said:


> If there's anyway to link up with others so that there's some sort of accountability with the weight loss? A buddy system or something online?


www.myfitnesspal.com

I have a suspicion the Fridays weight-loss circle might be forming itself - but first I've got some prosecco and a curry to eat and drink.


----------



## ttcycle (3 Sep 2012)

ta da! As if by magic!


----------



## rvw (4 Sep 2012)

srw said:


> www.myfitnesspal.com
> 
> I have a suspicion the Fridays weight-loss circle might be forming itself - but first I've got some prosecco and a curry to eat and drink.


+1. It was a very good curry.


----------



## Davidc (4 Sep 2012)

In my healthier and stronger past I found the best way to remove the Michelin Man spread was to cut out alcoholic drink - completely. If that wasn't fast enough then reducing fat intake was next. clearly the bad fats, the saturated ones, should be first out of the diet, but the others are also very high energy.

The one bit of the diet that I could never reduce much was carbs. I don't like sugary sweet things, and don't add sugar to tea or coffee, so that was never an issue, but if I cut out the bread and so on it's a disaster. Not enough energy to ride or even walk up hills properly, loss of stamina, and generally feeling rotten. At times when I've commuted to work by bike reducing carbs (intentionally or not) has always been very bad news.

It's good to get the excess weight off, by adjusting diet and exercise, but your body still needs good quality fuel to make it work properly.


----------



## subaqua (4 Sep 2012)

its the carbs in alcohol that do for me. christmas and summer are always a time where normal eating habiots go out the window.

if i can cut out cider on a Sun-Thur and only allow myself a few on Fri night and Sat then i can keep my weight and my bulge where i want it to be I.E not there!


----------



## VamP (4 Sep 2012)

I agree that the low carb diet is a bad idea, and that calorie counting is tedious to the extreme. I find having a good routine really helps, quality cereal or oat based breakfast, fruit and vegetables heavy lunch and very light supper. If I am trying to get to competitive weight - always a struggle especially if it coincides with a lot of high intensity training, as it's wont to do - then suppers get cut out entirely, although obviously recovery fueling needs to be maintained.

Don't be put off by the title and read this. It has a holistic approach that will leave you with lots of ideas of how to go about reconciling fueling needs with weight loss needs, and hints and tips to get around the need to calorie count all the time.

I have gone from 17ish to 12 and a half over the last two years, I also was one of the fat fit. It's amazing how much better being slim fit feels though.

As to your last question about feeling hungry all the time - that is really the crux of the matter - how to understand and use the very effective calorie intake mechanism that is the appetite. Fitzgerald has a very good chapter on this. It has changed the way I feel about what is being hungry, and what is merely wanting a little something.


----------



## Becs (4 Sep 2012)

Another vote for Myfitnesspal here - counting calories is tedious but it really works, and the phone app makes it really quick and easy. I believe Sitting Duck has lost loads using it (correct me if I'm wrong Ant) and I've lost nearly 3 stone since April using it without giving up anything I like, but massively cutting down the booze, white carbs and cheese. I'm doing a fair bit of exercise and haven't noticed a problem, but I am still eating "good" carbs like brown rice and I will eat normally the night before and during bigger rides (40mile +). The only thing I have found is that MFP is quite generous with its estimate of exercise calories so I try not eat everything it tells me I've burnt (unless I'm going out that night!). I definitely couldn't stick to a low carb fad diet but this appears to be working. The other thing that has really helped me over recent weeks is weight training and rowing in the gym - I've never done it before but the results are really noticeable and improving my core has fixed my back pain. Best of luck with it!


----------



## tadpole (4 Sep 2012)

srw said:


> www.myfitnesspal.com
> 
> I have a suspicion the Fridays weight-loss circle might be forming itself - but first I've got some prosecco and a curry to eat and drink.


 
Myfitnesspal, strava and portion control. As in eat everything you like but restrict the size of the meals, I cycle to work every day, and burn roughly 1300 calories per day, and have lost 100lb in the last two years, the last 8 months I've used strava to log my miles and it is mostly down to cycling faster and putting a lot more effort into my rides everyday that is responsible for my weight loss. I’ve found I can eat reasonably normal meals including bacon, cheese, steak chips pies, and the like, just not a much or as often as I use to. Riding to work and eating 2300 calories per day average, means I’ve lost 10lb last month and 9lbs the month before (when I was only cycling in to work 3 times a week)


----------



## Bodhbh (4 Sep 2012)

With those kind of miles, I think you would have to do very little bar cutting out the drink to loose weight. I found calorie counting, in a rough estimate kind of way is not tedious and you get a good feel for how much is in stuff after a while so don't need to keep looking things up. As long as your estimates are honest - there's no point kidding yourself. I know it's not far off, because I always seem to loose whatever weight per week I target when I do it.

Drink is terrible, at least for me when one pint leads to seven and a kebab to round off. Not just the calories in the booze, but what it does to your will power to stop eating and and/or go for rides.


----------



## MacB (4 Sep 2012)

Mate, your primary goal has to be finding a routine you can stick to. There's no point in any of the systems if you just give them a bash and then backslide as soon as you hit your goal or sooner.

I'd go for the obvious stuff first, try to take your carbs early in the day and try to avoid the late night meals/snacks. Look at the carbs you do use and then cut away the chips, crisps, etc.

Give yourself a break, relax on a Friday/Saturday...or whatever days suit, and go for it the rest of the week.

If you want a non bike based exercise that will give you the greatest return for the shortest amount of time, then put up a chin up bar...and use it. In the hallway near the toilet is a good spot, or anywhere you'll regularly pass, and just do one or two several times a day. Also hang from the bar and raise your legs to work your waist a bit more. By the way, I find this is about the only thing that really helps regarding some back issues I still carry from my rugby days.


----------



## Ghost Donkey (4 Sep 2012)

Low-ish carbs (low GI/GL from veg and fruit) most of the day, carbs during/after and sometimes before exercise works for me. I don't have the time to count calories. If I did I'd probably be leaner. At the end of your day your brain needs glucose if your sedentary. When you exercise you will need carbs at some point based on your training. Your body can synthesize from protein but eating it is more fun. Paleo diet for athletes has good advice for carbs around training. Again, don't be put off by the title.


----------



## Sittingduck (4 Sep 2012)

GregCollins said:


> What has been your experience of racking up the miles whilst dropping the pounds? Is low carb a no-no? Should I engage with the tedium that is calorie counting? Should I fast Tuesday and Thursdays? Do I just need to accept feeling hungry all the time?


 
First of all - good luck! Second of all, I wouldn't personally go with low carb. I have heard it can make you irritable or _grumpy_ if you cut carbs out 

I would think it's a case of perhaps re-balancing your intake, to be a bit less carbs, a bit more protein and a lot less booze. This is the approach I took, anyway. I also did/do calorie counting, using myfitnesspal. I found it to be very effective and motivational for me. It also really helped to get the momentum going and to sustain the progress I was making. I believe this is the key - it's mostly in the mind. Once you are in the habit of eating the correct amount of the correct stuff, it almost takes care of itself, on the food front anyway.

RE: the mileage - it certainly hasn't been negative, for me at least. I am definitely able to ride further and a lot faster then before. Oh and the best bit is hills... lovely lovely hills! 



Becs said:


> Another vote for Myfitnesspal here - counting calories is tedious but it really works, and the phone app makes it really quick and easy. I believe Sitting Duck has lost loads using it (correct me if I'm wrong Ant)
> 
> The only thing I have found is that MFP is quite generous with its estimate of exercise calories so I try not eat everything it tells me I've burnt (unless I'm going out that night!).


 
Yep - I had some good success with it, as Becs said. Realise though that what Greg is looking to do is a little different to me though. I dropped a large amount of weight in a reasonably short amount of time but it sounds like Gregs goals are different.

I also did a lot of stuff at the gym, when I was in massive calorie defecit every day, to try to minimise the amount of muscle loss and increase my lean mass / fat mass ratio. I believe this kind of worked, although I quit the gym due to financial strains! I don't miss weights, as I was doing them purely out of neccessity but I do miss spinning.

I would probably try a number of things and see how it is working out. Obviously everybody is different and have to figure out what is right for them and what doesn't work. These are just suggestions anyway (most of which worked for me)...

Yes - do calorie count. It probably doesn't matter how you do it - just do it.
Buy an electronic food scale for a tenner and weigh everything - at least in the beginning until you can accurately judge stuff.
Cut down on booze.
Lift weights.
Eat more protein.
Still eat carbs but perhaps less (if you already eat a fair bit). Especially stuff like white bread.
Drink more water!

Oh, and I realise I'm probably teaching you to suck eggs here, Greg. Particularly in ref to the weights stuff but thought I might aswell include it for others to see too


----------



## Ghost Donkey (4 Sep 2012)

VamP said:


> Don't be put off by the title and read this. It has a holistic approach that will leave you with lots of ideas of how to go about reconciling fueling needs with weight loss needs, and hints and tips to get around the need to calorie count all the time.


 
I've seen this recommended on here before (maybe by you in another thread  ). Ordered.


----------



## GrumpyGregry (4 Sep 2012)

What's a sensible calorie intake count then? 1500 a day?

Have started a food diary/exercise log and am heading back to the gym, after the summer break, this evening.... will contemplate complete abstinence from hooch for a period, say until Xtmas, I've past experience to suggest this can be a big factor (hic!) and see if I feel able to commit to such a thing.

Luckily very little in the way of backsliding has been involved. After last winters big push to get prepped for lonjog I only weighed about 4lbs less than I did at the start and I'm still weight that now. My body form changed, lost inches off my waist and a bit of my chest, and loads off my legs arms and face but my bmi stayed stable, i.e. I changed shape but stayed roughly the same weight, where I've more or less been since I got down from 17st + a few years back. Make of that what you will.

Lots of great suggestions and motivating stories so far peeps, keep em coming.


----------



## srw (4 Sep 2012)

GregCollins said:


> What's a sensible calorie intake count then? 1500 a day?


Myfitnesspal.com suggested a _net_ calorie intake of 1500 for me. It's probably about right for you too. At the risk of being patronising (surely not) _Net_ is important - 1500 calories is enough to enable a well-built man of about 6 foot in a sedentary lifestyle, not in an active one, to lose weight steadily.

I've previously had very bad experiences of eating less than 1500 calories a day, feeling like crap and not losing any weight.


----------



## Sittingduck (4 Sep 2012)

Depends on your size, target loss and how much exercise you do. 1500 sounds low to me. I was having 2000 - 2200 for the first few months and then upped it to 2500 - 2800.

I was dropping 4lbs/week for months and slowed down fairly quickly towards the end but was still dropping weight.

These figures are for the amount consumed, not net calories (which take into account exercise). As Becs said earlier, sites like MFP will over-estimate the amount you burn (so take it with a pinch of salt, or adjust the calories burned manually - I reduce mine by 20%). It's probably better that you use a bit of trial and error to find out what's a sensible amount, for you.

Eat and drink normally for a couple of days and figure out your current intake. Take a few hundred calories off this number and make that your initial target?


----------



## MacB (4 Sep 2012)

Sittingduck said:


> Depends on your size, target loss and how much exercise you do. 1500 sounds low to me. I was having 2000 - 2200 for the first few months and then upped it to 2500 - 2800.


 
Agreed, I think I was intaking close to 3000 when I was doing my best, though that was gross and not net, and excluded a more relaxed/binge approach at the weekends.


----------



## Trevrev (4 Sep 2012)

I've been low carb now for two months, and i've never felt better. No bread, no pasta, no sweets, crisps, avoid processed. Gone from white rice to brown. As for energy, i have a lot more now than i ever had. Don't get me wrong, the first week was hellish, but get over that and it's great.
I've even cut down on my real ale fetish, although i'll never stop that completely! Swapped drinking loads of ale to maybe a couple a night over the weekend, and just started drinking whiskey and carbonated water.
Lots of chicken, fish, salad, veg , eggs and fruit.
It's all about eating whole foods rather than processed.
I'm now 18.1% body fat.
I've just had my yearly MOT at the docs, due to bad family health history. and all is better than good.
I know most people poopoo, low carb but it's working for me.


----------



## MacB (4 Sep 2012)

Trevrev said:


> Don't get me wrong, the first week was hellish, but get over that and it's great.


 
I think this is important, I would imagine that not everyone responds the same but I strongly suspect that a lot of the dire reviews about low/no carbs are from those that didn't last long enough.


----------



## srw (4 Sep 2012)

MacB said:


> I think this is important, I would imagine that not everyone responds the same but I strongly suspect that a lot of the dire reviews about low/no carbs are from those that didn't last long enough.


 But reading what Trevrev actually eats (brown rice, beer, whisky, fruit, veg) - a lot of it is a good source of carbohydrate.


----------



## MacB (4 Sep 2012)

srw said:


> But reading what Trevrev actually eats (brown rice, beer, whisky, fruit, veg) - a lot of it is a good source of carbohydrate.


 
agreed, I wasn't advocating an Atkins approach and I think it's the processed stuff that does the real damage. But for weight loss I'd rate taking the carbs as low as you can and cutting out as much processed stuff as possible.

When the target weight is reached, or you're pretty close, then I think you need to pay more attention to energy requirements and exercise, especially if you're trying to alter/regain body shape.

As SD mentioned it really does depend on where you're starting from, what your goals are and your history of fitness/exercise.


----------



## Trevrev (4 Sep 2012)

srw said:


> But reading what Trevrev actually eats (brown rice, beer, whisky, fruit, veg) - a lot of it is a good source of carbohydrate.


 It's low carb, not no carb!
Whiskey has no carbs in it by the way! As for the beer, i'm not a saint. It's about moderation.
Some fruits are high in carbs, most aren't. The same with veg.
Complex carbs are better than simple carbs.


----------



## Becs (4 Sep 2012)

Trevrev said:


> It's low carb, not no carb!
> Whiskey has no carbs in it by the way! As for the beer, i'm not a saint. It's about moderation.
> Some fruits are high in carbs, most aren't. The same with veg.
> Complex carbs are better than simple carbs.


 
This is basically what I'm doing (with wine instead of beer). I have to say I've never felt better either, although that maybe the exercise rather than the diet - getting a little addicted. I would be careful about having too many relaxed days though - I find if I have a big weekend I put on 3-4lbs in water retention from the booze and chips and spend the rest of the week getting rid of that rather than actual weight - it's also rather demotivating!

Also I agree with SD re the grumpiness if the carbs go too low!


----------



## Andrew_P (4 Sep 2012)

I have lost lots of weight probably bordering on too much and really truthly I simply followed the move more, eat less diet.

I bought smaller dinner plates. 

I commute every day, sometimes Saturday too. I am always always working at it, not just riding I never arrive without a sweat on.

I truly couldn't be arsed to calorie count or any other specfic diet programme. I reduced my portions at my main meal I am ashamed to say did this by buying Sainsburys pre made mash (not the buttery one) as I found I couldn't resist topping the plate up with the home made. I stopped polishing off the kids left overs. I rarely eat red meat.

Although earlier I said I didn't calorie count, I quickly learnt that a minor change could make a big differnce over 4 weeks, a simple example 3 choc biscuits a day is 255 calories over a 30 day month its huge 7500+ or three whole days of a males suggested intake. Also they are fairly empty calories.

I haver reduced my booze, which really I should do..

Most important for me was to buy some expensive scales that measure weight, body fat, BMI and visceral fat. I now use weight as the guide but watch the others much more closely.


----------



## MacB (4 Sep 2012)

LOCO said:


> Most important for me was to buy some expensive scales that measure weight, body fat, BMI and visceral fat. I now use weight as the guide but watch the others much more closely.


 
no need I can tell from Janes reaction to me in lycra...at the moment that's avoiding meeting my eye


----------



## tadpole (5 Sep 2012)

LOCO said:


> IMost important for me was to buy some expensive scales that measure weight, body fat, BMI and visceral fat. I now use weight as the guide but watch the others much more closely.


Even the best/ most expensive scales are only accurate to around 1%, so I wouldn't worry about minor weight/fat/BMI fluctuation. They are not very accurate at calculating fat/BMI either, The scales work out fat/BMI by passing a small electrical current through the body from one pad to the other, (either foot to hand or hand to hand or foot to foot). The problem with this is if you are under hydrated you get a higher BMI reading and if you’ve had a lot to drink/ or even need to go to the toilet, you get a lower reading. (The current passes through liquid easier than through flesh/fat)
Take all readings with a hefty pinch of salt (unless on a low sodium diet)


----------



## GrumpyGregry (7 Sep 2012)

There is no other way to put this than....

"Bugger me, keeping a food diary is an enlightening (shocking) experience."


----------



## rvw (7 Sep 2012)

GregCollins said:


> There is no other way to put this than....
> 
> "Bugger me, keeping a food diary is an enlightening (shocking) experience."


+1. Especially when someone at work brings in cream cakes for their birthday...


----------



## GrumpyGregry (17 Sep 2012)

So far so good. Complete abstinence from booze. Near total abstinence from cheese, rigorous calorie counting/food&exercise diary Mon-Fri, slightly less rigorous but still being careful of a weekend. Saturday's off the bike as much as poss but doing other active stuff, Sunday's a club ride or off mtb'ing.

Two weeks in, half a stone gone. Back under 15 stone now, and gunning for fourteen-and-a-half. Gym programme starts this week, just core and upper body, and flexibility.


----------



## tadpole (17 Sep 2012)

GregCollins said:


> So far so good. Complete abstinence from booze. Near total abstinence from cheese, rigorous calorie counting/food&exercise diary Mon-Fri, slightly less rigorous but still being careful of a weekend. Saturday's off the bike as much as poss but doing other active stuff, Sunday's a club ride or off mtb'ing.
> 
> Two weeks in, half a stone gone. Back under 15 stone now, and gunning for fourteen-and-a-half. Gym programme starts this week, just core and upper body, and flexibility.


 Be warned, most ofthe weight you've lost in such a short time will be water weight, unless you've eaten/burnt 24,500 calories extra in the last two weeks. and when you join a gym it is easy to see your weight rise, (you'll start retaining water as you abuse/use your muscles) Ignore it, forget weighing yourself too often, once a month is more than enough (IMNSHO) warm up with a power walk, and then do your weight, then cardio (it's one way of feeling you've got your money's worth out of the gym), then cool down with a run/walk. Start Slow Have fun, keep going, Do you much, too soon, and you'll hate it and stop. YMMV


----------



## Sittingduck (17 Sep 2012)

Good start Greg. I don't agree with the above about expecting a gain when you start at the gym. If you carry on with the new regime, you will continue to drop, imho. I would also continue to weigh-in every week, to make sure you keep track and it will be motivational. I agree that the quick initial loss is probably mostly water weight, although the science says that if you carry on with deficits, you will carry on with losses, although they may be reduced, in scale.

Good luck.


----------



## tadpole (17 Sep 2012)

Sittingduck said:


> Good start Greg. I don't agree with the above about expecting a gain when you start at the gym. If you carry on with the new regime, you will continue to drop, imho. I would also continue to weigh-in every week, to make sure you keep track and it will be motivational. I agree that the quick initial loss is probably mostly water weight, although the science says that if you carry on with deficits, you will carry on with losses, although they may be reduced, in scale.
> 
> Good luck.


 
http://www.livestrong.com/article/351391-water-retention-in-muscles-after-exercise/

I love science.


----------



## GrumpyGregry (17 Sep 2012)

Good job I hydrate like a goldfish every day then.


----------



## tadpole (17 Sep 2012)

GregCollins said:


> Good job I hydrate like a goldfish every day then.


 Goldfish don't drink water, they absorb water through their skin...


----------



## GrumpyGregry (17 Sep 2012)

tadpole said:


> Goldfish don't drink water, they absorb water through their skin...


Which is why I said hydrate not 'drink'


----------



## Crankarm (20 Sep 2012)

It's not rocket science.

Eat less but a balanced diet of ALL food groups except kebabs and crisps. Don't totally cut out carbs. If you are truly active you need them unless you want to feel faint most of the time. Eat carbs in the morning when your body needs energy quickly. Think of carbs as your fuel. Don't fill up at the end of the day as you are not active and carbs will be stored as fat, unless you are deliberately carb loading.

Move more, more frequently, for longer and further.

Drink more instead of eating, water, not alcohol.

Do not eat late after 7pm, slob on the sofa then go to sleep.

Chin ups are very good for core muscles and back. As many as you can do.

Also go running.


----------



## tadpole (20 Sep 2012)

Crankarm said:


> It's *not* science.





Crankarm said:


> Don't fill up at the end of the day as you are not active and carbs will be stored as fat, unless you are deliberately carb loading.
> 
> Do not eat late after 7pm, slob on the sofa then go to sleep.



Fixed that for you

Your body does not have any clue as to the time, it doesn’t know if it’s 5pm or 11pm. “Calories in” is all that matters. If you eat a dozen doughnuts worth of calories over your daily need at 3pm or 7pm it will not make any difference to the amount of excess that is stored as fat. Eat too much and the excess will be stored even if you eat it all at midday and in one go. 
If you want to eat after 8pm, eat, just eat real food rather than junk food, so have grilled chicken wrap with salad, rather than pizza.


----------



## Crankarm (20 Sep 2012)

tadpole said:


> Fixed that for you
> 
> Your body does not have any clue as to the time, it doesn’t know if it’s 5pm or 11pm. “Calories in” is all that matters. If you eat a dozen doughnuts worth of calories over your daily need at 3pm or 7pm it will not make any difference to the amount of excess that is stored as fat. Eat too much and the excess will be stored even if you eat it all at midday and in one go.
> If you want to eat after 8pm, eat, just eat real food rather than junk food, so have grilled chicken wrap with salad, rather than pizza.


 
Sorry Tadople but your post is absolute rubbish. Peeps do not follow this advice.

Have you studied any biology in particular metabolism and nutrition because your post suggests you missed out on this?


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (21 Sep 2012)

Crankarm said:


> Sorry Tadople but your post is absolute rubbish. Peeps do not follow this advice.
> 
> Have you studied any biology in particular metabolism and nutrition because your post suggests you missed out on this?


Did you?


----------



## srw (21 Sep 2012)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Did you?


I don't need to have studied biology to know that my body knows that it's midnight. For one, I'm usually asleep. And if I'm not, I'm tired.

I don't know whether there's anything in the theory that it's better to eat earlier because otherwise food is more easily stored as fat, but dismissing the theory on the basis of nonsensical statements isn't very sensible.


----------



## G2EWS (21 Sep 2012)

Some really useful advise on this thread, thanks for all the contributors.



VamP said:


> Don't be put off by the title and read this. It has a holistic approach that will leave you with lots of ideas of how to go about reconciling fueling needs with weight loss needs, and hints and tips to get around the need to calorie count all the time.


 
Hi Vam, thanks for the link, I too had seen this recommended before, so have just bought and downloaded it to my iPad.

Regards

Chris


----------



## defy-one (21 Sep 2012)

Falwheeler said:


> I find that keeping a food diary helps, be honest and put everything down. It's surprising but I find it works, even though you're the only one reading it
> you think twice about picking up those crisps or chocolate knowing that it's has to go in the diary.



This has worked very well, and helped me to understand the relation of different foods/calorie value and my weight. Almost 2 stone down now


----------



## JoeyB (21 Sep 2012)

My diet during the week consists of (mostly) tuna wraps for lunch and a couple of chicken breasts with veg (sometimes rice) for dinner. Mid Morning and mid afternoon I have half a serving of fatty bum bum shake (mass gainer essentially). 

At the weekend I'm a lot less strict and make sure I carb up on a Saturday so I'm good for a run on Sunday morning!

I get plenty of exercise and my weight is starting to level out nicely. I've lost a stone since I starting training for the great south run.


----------



## VamP (21 Sep 2012)

G2EWS said:


> Some really useful advise on this thread, thanks for all the contributors.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




hope it works for you.


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (21 Sep 2012)

srw said:


> I don't need to have studied biology to know that my body knows that it's midnight. For one, I'm usually asleep. And if I'm not, I'm tired.
> 
> I don't know whether there's anything in the theory that it's better to eat earlier because otherwise food is more easily stored as fat, but dismissing the theory on the basis of nonsensical statements isn't very sensible.


Not quite sure what it was I dismissed


----------



## srw (21 Sep 2012)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Not quite sure what it was I dismissed


 My mistake - you didn't. Tadpole did. Consider my remarks aimed at that user, not at you.


----------



## tadpole (21 Sep 2012)

Crankarm said:


> Sorry Tadople but your post is absolute rubbish. Peeps do not follow this advice.
> 
> Have you studied any biology in particular metabolism and nutrition because your post suggests you missed out on this?


 
So let me get this right, eating after a quantifiable time at night (say 7pm) will change the calorific value of the food you eat and make it change instantly into stored fat?
 Or are you saying that people in a coma do not need to eat, as they are technically asleep and the body doesn’t burn calories when you are asleep? 

Your Basal Metabolic Rate (BMR) is the minimum amount of calories your body needs, just to live, not move about or sit up, just live. 24 hours a day 365.249 days a year. You know of course that you are burning calories all the time. Every second of every day

Next you multiply your BMR by a fixed amount to take into account your activity level 
Harris Benedict Equation

If you are sedentary (little or no exercise): Calorie-Calculation = BMR x 1.2
If you are lightly active (light exercise/sports 1-3 days/week) : Calorie-Calculation = BMR x 1.375
If you are moderately active (moderate exercise/sports 3-5 days/week) : Calorie-Calculation = BMR x 1.55
If you are very active (hard exercise/sports 6-7 days a week) : Calorie-Calculation = BMR x 1.725
If you are extra active (very hard exercise/sports & physical job or 2x training) : Calorie-Calculation = BMR x 1.9

This gives you your: Total Daily Energy Expenditure
The TDEE is used to calculate the amount of calories your body needs to function in a normal day, what you need to move about and live. 
So once you’ve worked out what you need to live your normal everyday life, you then calculate what you have to eat to lose weight. 
 There are two common ways to do this.
Either take your TDEE and subtract between 500 calories or 1000 calories (equates to between 1lb and 2lb per week)
Or 
Eat your BMR and add your exercise calories. 

MY TDEE is 2500 calories a day (that is what it takes to support/repair/fuel me in my sedentary life. 
 So I aim to eat 2000 calories per day on my “none exercise” days and 2000 + my exercise calories the rest of the time. TDEE minus 500 calories per day equals 1lb weight loss per week 
(Personally I don’t eat them all back as both calculating my BMR/TDEE, and the Calories in my food is a bit more black magic rather than science)

However, getting back to my point 
If I eat 4 meals at 500 calories per meal and burn 1000 calories doing exercise, I am in deficit, as I need to eat 2500 calories to live my sedentary life. So when I eat my chicken wrap at 9pm (380 calories) my body will use them to replace glucose and glycogen, and if there is any left over, then and only then, does it store them. 
Now between your liver and muscles you can store roughly 1400 to 1600 calories worth glycogen. So living in a permanent deficit situation - as you must, to lose weight- you never get to the point where there is anything left, after your 1200 calories (BMR) your exercise Calories 1000 and the recharging of the liver/muscle glycogen 1400. Calories in equals 2000 calories – out equals 3600. 

According to Columbia University Health Services. Calories you consume late at night have the same energy value as calories you consume at any other time. Some people have success reaching their weight loss goals by including an evening snack to stave off hunger and possible overeating the next day. For others, not eating after a certain time in the evening means successfully avoiding sugary or high-fat foods that can derail an otherwise healthy weight loss plan.
http://www.livestrong.com/article/440180-what-are-benefits-of-not-eating-before-bed/#ixzz275M5RNl7


Maintaining healthy nutrition is important for exercise because your muscles rely heavily on the foods, and primarily the carbohydrates, you eat daily. Your body digests carbohydrates into glucose (simple sugar), and either uses it for energy or stores it for later use. Extra glucose is stored mostly in the form of muscle glycogen (complex sugar). When you exercise, your body uses both glucose (quick, simple sugars) and glycogen (longer lasting, complex sugars)
http://health.columbia.edu/

There is no magic time after which the body stores fat. For instance, if you eat the same exact meal at 6 pm or at 8 pm, is one more caloric than the other? No, each meal has the same number of calories. What really matters is the total amount of food and drink you have over the course of a week, or a month or longer, and how much energy you expend during that timeframe. Excess calories will be stored as fat over time, regardless of whether they are taken in during the day or night.
When it comes to eating late at night and the potential for weight gain, there are several considerations: 
Portion sizes — waiting to eat could lead to consuming larger portion sizes 
Quality of food — after a long day of work or school, a few slices of pizza or a fast burger may seem easier than steamed vegetables and broiled fish 
"Mindless snacking" — evenings spent studying, out on the town, or watching TV may lead to excess calories from fast, sugary, on-the-go options 
Health concerns — consistent periods of going without food followed by a large meal can negatively impact the interaction between blood sugar and insulin and make you more vulnerable to Type 2 diabetes. 
http://goaskalice.columbia.edu/eating-night-weight-gain-myth-or-fact


I will restate that your body does not have any clue as to the time, it doesn’t know if it’s 5pm or 11pm.
 “Calories in” is all that matters.


----------



## tadpole (21 Sep 2012)

srw said:


> My mistake - you didn't. Tadpole did. Consider my remarks aimed at that user, not at you.


Your body does not know it is 7am or 7pm, it knows you are tired, it knows it is dark and so you should be asleep, it knows if you are hungry, it does not know that it Is 7 o'clock and it is time to change the laws of thermodynamics


----------



## srw (21 Sep 2012)

tadpole said:


> Your body does not know it is 7am or 7pm, it knows you are tired, it knows it is dark and so you should be asleep, it knows if you are hungry, it does not know that it Is 7 o'clock and it is time to change the laws of thermodynamics


 It knows that you are tired, it is dark and so you are or should be asleep. So _there is a possibility_ that it reacts differently to the food it digests, by diverting the energy into fat storage or into metabolism. Note that word - _possibility._ I am agnostic. No change to the laws of thermodynamics is involved. But I am sceptical of any explanation that does not recognise the body's diurnal rhythm.


----------



## tadpole (21 Sep 2012)

It has yet to be proven, but there is some research that claims that by feeding animals in a time window of 4 hours, the animals change their circadian clock to suit that window, so their metabolism becomes synchronized, their metabolism quickly becomes ‘anticipatory’ and starts to produce not only hormones and chemical responses, but also digestive enzymes for several hours in anticipation of being fed. By restricting outside influences such as non biological clocks (light and darkness) you can reset their circadian clock. So if you are a mouse and always eat between 1900 and 2400hrs you can reset your circadian clock to suit your life style. 
If you always eat at 8 pm then roughly 2 to 4 hours before hand, you body become more active, the body has more energy, body temperature increases, there is increased corticosterone secretion (involved in regulation of fuel, immune reactions, and stress responses) and control of gastrointestinal motility (peristalsis or the movement food through the digestive tract by rhythmic contractions), along with production and control of activity of digestive enzymes. You are more alert, more up for life. It is when the cycle is disrupted that problems occur, working in the rest period (as defined by your circadian clock, or sleeping in an activity period.


----------



## black'n'yellow (21 Sep 2012)

Tadpole - I notice your font has changed over the last few posts - is that because you are copying & pasting this stuff from google..?


----------



## GrumpyGregry (21 Sep 2012)

The French rarely eat before 19:00. The Spanish almost never do. I am considerably more obese than the avg. "insert politically incorrect names for Frenchmen or Spaniards".

I work until 18:00 most days. It take 50 mins to get home. Her indoors, for some trifling reason related to working full-time educating other people's children, never has a meal on the table for me when I get home. (I know it's shocking but there we are). I abhor microwaved ready meals and I like cooking.

How am I meant to eat before 19:00?


----------



## Sittingduck (21 Sep 2012)

Eat dinner when it's convenient or when you are hungry. Don't stress over timings - hitting your intake target and consuming the right balance of carb/protein/fat is far more important, imho. This approach certainly worked for me, anyway.


----------



## GrumpyGregry (21 Sep 2012)

Sittingduck said:


> Eat dinner when it's convenient or when you are hungry. Don't stress over timings - hitting your intake target and consuming the right balance of carb/protein/fat is far more important, imho. This approach certainly worked for me, anyway.


My post needed a sardonic smiley.

I eat when I want to, meetings at work allowing


----------



## MacB (21 Sep 2012)

Sittingduck said:


> Eat dinner when it's convenient or when you are hungry. Don't stress over timings - hitting your intake target and consuming the right balance of carb/protein/fat is far more important, imho. This approach certainly worked for me, anyway.


 
Listen to SpeedkingDuck this man has climbed the mountain


----------



## GrumpyGregry (21 Sep 2012)

MacB said:


> Listen to SpeedkingDuck this man has climbed the mountain


I'm listening.


----------



## Crankarm (21 Sep 2012)

tadpole said:


> So let me get this right, eating after a quantifiable time at night (say 7pm) will change the calorific value of the food you eat and make it change instantly into stored fat?
> Or are you saying that people in a coma do not need to eat, as they are technically asleep and the body doesn’t burn calories when you are asleep?
> 
> Your Basal Metabolic Rate (BMR) is the minimum amount of calories your body needs, just to live, not move about or sit up, just live. 24 hours a day 365.249 days a year. You know of course that you are burning calories all the time. Every second of every day
> ...


 
Absolute rubbish.

Anyway your posts are clear copy and paste jobs.

IIRC Tadpole not long ago you admitted to being of a rather heavy disposition which is not suprising if you practice what you copy and paste.


----------



## tadpole (21 Sep 2012)

Crankarm said:


> Absolute rubbish.
> 
> Anyway your posts are clear copy and paste jobs.
> 
> IIRC Tadpole not long ago you admitted to being of a rather heavy disposition which is not suprising if you follow the posts you have made above.


I think you will find they are called quotes, you'll find most of my posts are quotes, from the places I've included in the links, and, I'm a lardarse this is true, I've lost 100lb with 40lb to go, but I've lost 100lb eating 5 meals a day, the last one being after 7pm, everyday. finally in this is what I call "the winner", something you' need to think about, 
 If it is good enough real science for a reputable university to publish on its website as advice for people, then it is factually worth 100 times more than all your Broscience, opinions without any kind support for your own rebuttals. 
I’m fat because I ate too much, not because all my calories magically turned in to fat once second after 1900hrs.


----------



## Sittingduck (21 Sep 2012)

Crankarm said:


> Absolute rubbish.
> 
> Anyway your posts are clear copy and paste jobs.
> 
> IIRC Tadpole not long ago you admitted to being of a rather heavy disposition which is not suprising if you practice what you copy and paste.


 
Cut & Paste it may be but tell us Crankarm, exactly which aspects are absolute rubbish and why? I happen to think it's correct, in the main.


----------



## Crankarm (21 Sep 2012)

Sittingduck said:


> Cut & Paste it may be but tell us Crankarm, exactly which aspects are absolute rubbish and why? I happen to think it's correct, in the main.


 
Pretty much all of it which is perhaps why Tadpole is of a large disposition.

What you eat, how much and when during your day determines how successful you are at maintaining a normal weight and being healthy. If you want to stuff your face late at night with pizza, crisps and cake because they have the calories you require because you have not had breakfast, neither lunch thus starving yourself all day, then be my guest, but you will become an over weight slob and probably die prmaturely from a heart attack and definately become diabetic. Each to their own.


----------



## Crankarm (21 Sep 2012)

GregCollins said:


> The French rarely eat before 19:00. The Spanish almost never do. I am considerably more obese than the avg. "insert politically incorrect names for Frenchmen or Spaniards".
> 
> I work until 18:00 most days. It take 50 mins to get home. Her indoors, for some trifling reason related to working full-time educating other people's children, never has a meal on the table for me when I get home. (I know it's shocking but there we are). I abhor microwaved ready meals and I like cooking.
> 
> How am I meant to eat before 19:00?


 
My experience of living in France for 3 years was that French people had a proper lunch break, a sit down meal rather than eating a sandweech and drinking a Coke over their ordinateur while they work which is very much the British way.


----------



## Sittingduck (21 Sep 2012)

You're just taking things to extremes. Drama Queen, as usual. Nobody is suggest stuffing your face full of junk food. The bits about BMR and TDEE are quite acceptable and I maintain that as long as you have a consistent deficit - you will lose weight. If you were to stuff pizza, cakes, crisps every night - you most likely wouldn't be hitting your calorie target would you??

Furthermore, if you *were* to be in your target and eat nothing but junk at midnight everynight, then yes - you would still lose weight. It may not be healthy but you would lose.


----------



## tadpole (21 Sep 2012)

Crankarm said:


> Pretty much all of it which is perhaps why Tadpole is of a large disposition.
> 
> What you eat, how much and when during your day determines how successful you are at maintaining a normal weight and being healthy. If you want to stuff your face late at night with pizza, crisps and cake because they have the calories you require because you have not had breakfast, neither lunch thus starving yourself all day, then be my guest, but you will become an over weight slob and probably die prmaturely from a heart attack and definately become diabetic. Each to their own.


Nope not good enough, sorry but we want facts as to why you think my post is absolute rubbish, nothing you've posted answer the question. 
Stop avoiding answering the question or stop posting nonsense. 
So apply Rule #five and either admit you are wrong or post evidence supporting your opinion. 
Facts backed up with evidence not made up wrongheaded opinion.
Oh and I didn’t eat too late in the evening to get fat, I ate too much, end of story. I ate to many calories for the activity I was doing.


----------



## Crankarm (21 Sep 2012)

tadpole said:


> Nope not good enough, sorry but we want facts as to why you think my post is absolute rubbish, nothing you've posted answer the question.
> Stop avoiding answering the question or stop posting nonsense.
> So apply Rule #five and either admit you are wrong or post evidence supporting your opinion.
> Facts backed up with evidence not made up wrongheaded opinion.
> Oh and I didn’t eat too late in the evening to get fat, I ate too much, end of story. I ate to many calories for the activity I was doing.


 
I don't have to justify myself to you. I have posted on a number of threads where fat people have asked how to best lose weight. Perhaps if you had followed sensible nutritional advice from those of a normal healthy weight you wouldn't be carrying so much extra weight that you do now.

The proof is in the pudding really. I eat sensibly, at sensible times and avoid crap. This why I weigh 70kg. Probably could get down to 65kg, but at least I'm not a glutton who binge eats to excess late into the night who has unhealthy amounts of fat surrounding their vital organs and a huge belly. Euugh!!

Breakfast eat like a king, lunch eat like a prince and supper eat like a pauper.


----------



## BrianEvesham (21 Sep 2012)

Some of us have no choice but to eat later at night.


----------



## Crankarm (21 Sep 2012)

MacB said:


> Listen to SpeedkingDuck this man has climbed the mountain


 
What mountain is this?


----------



## tadpole (21 Sep 2012)

Crankarm said:


> This why I weigh 70kg. Probably could get down to 65kg, but at least I'm not glutton who binge eats to excess late into the night. Euugh!!


I’ve never said I supported binge eating, and you know that, in my first or second post I said swap a pizza for a chicken wrap. 

Depending on your height 70kg could be overweight and of course being fit and healthy has no bearing on what you weigh. 
If your body is the right weight and you have not enough LBM you are Skinny fat and that is unhealthy as being fat
However I guess you are not even interested in posting facts you are just a lowly troll bent on being as rude and annoying as you can, in that you’ve failed as you’ve amused me.


----------



## pubrunner (21 Sep 2012)

Crankarm said:


> What you eat, how much and *when during your day* determines how successful you are at maintaining a normal weight and being healthy.


 
When you eat during the day_ might_ affect your weight - if little exercise is taken; but it has been scientifically shown, that exercise does 'speed up' the metabolism for *many* hours afterwards.

I can't see how anyone *who exercises on a regular basis*, is going to be adversely affected by eating after 7pm. As stated already, the body doesn't know what time it is, but metabolic rate can be increased, simply by doing exercise . . . . . . . at any time of the day. Those who go to the gym soon after work in the early evening, need have no worries about eating long after 7pm.

The point that I'm trying to make, is that it is perfectly possible to increase metabolic rate at any time of the day or night.


----------



## MacB (21 Sep 2012)

Crankarm said:


> What mountain is this?


 
losing weight and getting fit Cranky, which also seems to be something Tadpole has been rather successful at as well.

Those of us of a 'chunkier' disposition do like to read about these success stories...inspirational is a word often used. Now, be fair, do you think that your contributions to these sorts of threads are ever going to inspire? I'm not claiming you need to do so but, apart from venting a bit, you're not really bringing anything to the party are you? Do you think that people like me are unaware of why we are overweight and how to fix it, or can you imagine that we're sometimes just looking for the right driver. Something that clicks and gets the ball rolling, or maybe just the knowledge of others success gives us some hope. You may feel that's melodramatic tosh, and you're probably right, but then you're not the one with a problem. But be very clear on this, there isn't an overweight adult in the land that hasn't heard the sort of advice you bring to the table.

I could easily haunt threads about drink or debt problems, pointing out that I have neither and how easy it is to avoid. But I don't see that as ever being a helpful contribution to make towards people that are struggling.

It's the net mate, we all get a bit challenged and a bit heated at times. I can look at some of my past contributions and think to myself...that was a bit wanky Al...sometimes I even remember and learn from this, or at least just avoid joining in on certain discussions.


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (21 Sep 2012)

Crankarm Are you just going to avoid all questions?

In fact you'll probably avoid this one too


----------



## Crankarm (22 Sep 2012)

tadpole said:


> I’ve never said I supported binge eating, and you know that, in my first or second post I said swap a pizza for a chicken wrap.
> 
> Depending on your height 70kg could be overweight and of course being fit and healthy has no bearing on what you weigh.
> If your body is the right weight and you have not enough LBM you are Skinny fat and that is unhealthy as being fat
> However I guess you are not even interested in posting facts _*you are just a lowly troll bent on being as rude and annoying as you can, in that you’ve failed*_ as you’ve amused me.


 
Now now tadpole, personal insults will get you no where and show you have lost the argument. Only a _lowly_ troll ....................

I thought human respiration and metabolism was part of the biology syllabus at school? Were you asleep. May be biology is no longer taught. Another casualty of dumbing down. Did you not study biology, human biology?

I am 5 feet 9 inches tall.


----------



## Crankarm (22 Sep 2012)

pubrunner said:


> When you eat during the day_ might_ affect your weight - if little exercise is taken; but it has been scientifically shown, that exercise does 'speed up' the metabolism for *many* hours afterwards.
> 
> I can't see how anyone *who exercises on a regular basis*, is going to be adversely affected by eating after 7pm. As stated already, the body doesn't know what time it is, but metabolic rate can be increased, simply by doing exercise . . . . . . . at any time of the day. Those who go to the gym soon after work in the early evening, need have no worries about eating long after 7pm.
> 
> The point that I'm trying to make, is that _*it is perfectly possible to increase metabolic rate at any time of the day or night*_.


 
Indeed, a mid-night spin or run.


----------



## pubrunner (22 Sep 2012)

Crankarm said:


> Indeed, a mid-night spin or run.


 
There really is no need to run at midnight.

I quote from an article on metabolic rate & exercise :

Most studies that have found an elevated resting metabolic rate have made their measurements within 24 hours of the exercise session. One investigation found that any *post-exercise increase in RMR faded between 24 and 39 hours*. Looking at the information available at present, it seems that to SIGNIFICANTLY boost energy expenditure after exercise, the activity needs to be intense (over 70% VO2max) and prolonged (over 90 minutes); *the effect will be most pronounced in the first 12 hours post-exercise*.

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0120.htm

and another :

. . .Anyway, getting (finally) to the point: *exercise boosted metabolism for the next 14 hours . . .*

http://sweatscience.com/metabolism-rises-for-14-hours-after-hard-exercise/


----------



## MattHB (22 Sep 2012)

Jeez, this was a really useful thread until recently.


----------



## Crankarm (23 Sep 2012)

pubrunner said:


> There really is no need to run at midnight.
> 
> I quote from an article on metabolic rate & exercise :
> 
> ...


 
So you contradict yourself.


----------



## tadpole (23 Sep 2012)

black'n'yellow said:


> Tadpole - I notice your font has changed over the last few posts - is that because you are copying & pasting this stuff from google..?


No, it's because I am using two different versions of word, one on my laptop and the other is on an xp machine. and I am looking up stuff on Google, as I have struggled to find a way of posting the information in a simple enough form that even Crankarm can understand.


quote="Crankarm, post: 2053162, member: 4995"
If you want to stuff your face late at night with pizza, crisps and cake because they have the calories you require because you have not had breakfast, neither lunch thus starving yourself all day, then be my guest, but you will become an over weight slob.

quote="Crankarm, post: 2053198, member: 4995
, but at least I'm not a glutton who binge eats to excess late into the night who has unhealthy amounts of fat surrounding their vital organs and a huge belly. Euugh!!

Calling you a troll is minor to what you have called me. And at least I am posting the truth, you on the other hand are just posting insults because you know you have failed to get a rise out of me.
This is my last post on this, as you are unable to answer the simplest of my my points, and I feel it is pointless to continue. I didn’t set out to win the argument or even educate people, I posted my opinion and you posted insults. I think anyone with even a modicum of intellect can see the difference.[/quote][/quote]


----------



## GrumpyGregry (23 Sep 2012)

jebus guys get a room or start your own thread to argue on


----------



## Crankarm (23 Sep 2012)

tadpole said:


> No, it's because I am using two different versions of word, one on my laptop and the other is on an xp machine. and I am looking up stuff on Google, as I have struggled to find a way of posting the information in a simple enough form that even Crankarm can understand.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

Errr ........ please when did I insult you? And just what are you implying I have called you? Nothing is the answer. It is all in your mind. But have you posted your opinion? All you seem to have done is copied and pasted from others.


----------



## Marshmallow_Fluff (25 Sep 2012)

GregCollins said:


> What's a sensible calorie intake count then? 1500 a day?
> 
> Have started a food diary/exercise log and am heading back to the gym, after the summer break, this evening.... will contemplate complete abstinence from hooch for a period, say until Xtmas, I've past experience to suggest this can be a big factor (hic!) and see if I feel able to commit to such a thing.
> 
> ...


 
From professional experience I would suggest not to reduce your caloric intake, but rather burn the excess (or maybe a combination of both for some days of the week). In other words, calculate the daily calories that you need in order to maintain your weight, and find ways to burn 500-700 calories/day. If it looks too fussy, let me know and I will do the calculations for you.. In regards to your nutrition, different ratios work for different people and you will need to be assessed in order to define the best for you, but as a general rule, if you can switch to healthier choices and minimize the usual suspects (white processed flour, sugar and alcohol), it shouldn't be a problem.. As I said, if you think a more strict regime can work better for you give me a shout and I will try something out (as "popping in" doesn't look like an option to me.. ) via the net.. Cheers!


----------



## GrumpyGregry (26 Sep 2012)

This week I'm house-sitting in Wales, looking after the Aged P. This is interesting from an exercise/diet perspective. He, at 92, is very much a breakfast - lunch - dinner kind of guy who can't have his routine disrupted. His main meal is lunch. This is a completely different regime to mine, and as one might expcet in the care of an elderly parent, a emotional roller-coaster.

No commutes and tbh I can't leave him for too long to go on any long rides and combined with the weather so far this week, I've only managed 6 miles!

So this week I'm just watching the calorie intake like a hawk and doing some body weight core exercises. Thus far I've succeeded on staying off the booze, avoiding the cheese and the white flour and sugar.

Fingers crossed.


----------



## GrumpyGregry (26 Sep 2012)

Marshmallow_Fluff said:


> From professional experience I would suggest not to reduce your caloric intake, but rather burn the excess (or maybe a combination of both for some days of the week). In other words, calculate the daily calories that you need in order to maintain your weight, and find ways to burn 500-700 calories/day. If it looks too fussy, let me know and I will do the calculations for you.. In regards to your nutrition, different ratios work for different people and you will need to be assessed in order to define the best for you, but as a general rule, if you can switch to healthier choices and minimize the usual suspects (white processed flour, sugar and alcohol), it shouldn't be a problem.. As I said, if you think a more strict regime can work better for you give me a shout and I will try something out (as "popping in" doesn't look like an option to me.. ) via the net.. Cheers!


Has to be a calorie cut back in the main, I think...

My normal working week consists of three or four days commutting 20km to/from work. I've stepped this up to five a week since the diet started. September - March I try to run three times a week and go to the gym twice a week too.

But obvs historically I've been taking in more than I've been putting out.


----------



## Sittingduck (26 Sep 2012)

Greg - You're on the right track, I reckon 

I didn't get _real_ results until the calorie intake thing was addressed. You can cycle all the miles you like but if you don't watch what you eat and cut the booze down, you can't lose over a long period, imho. Stepping up exercise alone may work for those who do little or none, in the first place but won't work as well for those already quite active.

It's a war that should be fought on two fronts equally. Increased Exercise and Reduced intake!


----------



## martint235 (26 Sep 2012)

I'm going to have to look at my diet. According to the scales, I put on a stone during my week off work. And I cycled the Olympic Road Race route during that time. I also swam quite a bit so I could just be building muscle but I think it's my diet needs looking at.


----------



## GrumpyGregry (26 Sep 2012)

martint235 said:


> I'm going to have to look at my diet. According to the scales, I put on a stone during my week off work. And I cycled the Olympic Road Race route during that time. I also swam quite a bit so I could just be building muscle but I think it's my diet needs looking at.


Pretty much what I'm worried about this week, get back home and find I've put back on everything I lost.


----------



## Sittingduck (26 Sep 2012)

Having slacked off slightly in recent weeks, I stepped on the scale on Monday morning and was gutted to see 86Kg. Had 2 good days (back to the old skool regime) and this morning I weigh 83, lol. Water retention is to blame, mefinks - because there is no way I have legitimally lost 3Kg in 2 days. These fluctuations can be misleading and the only thing that really matters are results, over a long period. I was down to around 80Kg in mid July and my ideal target is around 75.

I plan to knuckle down hard for the winter and consolidate at around 80 - 82. I'll push hard to reach goal, by late Spring. It's a long war and will be won, over time. The small battles are won and lost but I'll keep fighting


----------



## rvw (26 Sep 2012)

For me it has to be mainly the "eat less" bit of the equation too: I know from bitter experience that I don't burn up nearly as much as I think I do, even on the tours when S & I have been doing 60-80 miles per day for a week. 

Still, I managed to shed a pound and a half last week, despite the visit with my sister to see my mum - so things are beginning to move in the right direction.


----------



## Marshmallow_Fluff (26 Sep 2012)

GregCollins said:


> Has to be a calorie cut back in the main, I think...
> 
> My normal working week consists of three or four days commutting 20km to/from work. I've stepped this up to five a week since the diet started. September - March I try to run three times a week and go to the gym twice a week too.
> 
> But obvs historically I've been taking in more than I've been putting out.


 
well.. that was not exactly what I meant! Obviously regardless what your excersise regime is, if you don't lose weight that means only one thing: *you eat more than what you burn*! (unless there are other health issues) It is as simple as that! What I suggested thought was to calculate what your daily caloric intake _*should be*_ (what we call Basal Metabolic Rate [BMR] the calculation of which is consisted by your sex, age, body fat percentage and average approx daily activity) and stick with it in regards to your nutrition! If you stick to that (along with the changes I already mentioned) and you create your deficit by your exersice, you will have more effective _fat loss_ (and not just weight loss), you will eliminate the danger of plateau(s) and keep your metabolism going all day.. btw 1500 calories/day is too low even for a middle age female. But hey! What do I know?


----------



## martint235 (26 Sep 2012)

rvw said:


> For me it has to be mainly the "eat less" bit of the equation too: I know from bitter experience that I don't burn up nearly as much as I think I do, even on the tours when S & I have been doing 60-80 miles per day for a week.
> 
> Still, I managed to shed a pound and a half last week, despite the visit with my sister to see my mum - so things are beginning to move in the right direction.


 I have a feeling that the 12 magnums a week, large bags of cola bottle sweets and bottles of Cream Soda may have to go. At least for a little while.


----------



## GrumpyGregry (26 Sep 2012)

Marshmallow_Fluff said:


> well.. that was not exactly what I meant! Obviously regardless what your excersise regime is, if you don't lose weight that means only one thing: *you eat more than what you burn*! (unless there are other health issues) It is as simple as that! What I suggested thought was to calculate what your daily caloric intake _*should be*_ (what we call Basal Metabolic Rate [BMR] the calculation of which is consisted by your sex, age, body fat percentage and average approx daily activity) and stick with it in regards to your nutrition! If you stick to that (along with the changes I already mentioned) and you create your deficit by your exersice, you will have more effective _fat loss_ (and not just weight loss), you will eliminate the danger of plateau(s) and keep your metabolism going all day.. btw 1500 calories/day is too low even for a middle age female. But hey! What do I know?


 
Apologies....

BMR suggests 1900 - 2100 kcals for normal daily weekday activity _excluding_ exercise. I'm aiming at avg 2000 per day over five day working week and 2500 per day at weekends by way of cutting some slack and because I'm way more active excluding exercise on Saturday and Sunday. 

Lob in 200 - 250 km of bike commuting, a longish ride of a weekend, and a couple of gym sessions and a jog/run or three and I should be sorted. That said, getting the fuelling strategy right for day-in-day-out commuting is taking a bit of work; have had the odd 'jelly legs' moment on the way home.


----------



## Andrew_P (26 Sep 2012)

Well I cam back from Holiday and had put on 4lbs, even though I cycled a few hundred miles over the flatlands of Aquitaine, no big deal once I am back home it will drop off.

Two weeks in I was just maintaining my new weight, because I had slipped back in to old habits (even before I went away), Which is quite good as I now know that I can live quite a nice food lifestyle without putting on weight assuming I carry on my active lifestyle.

Anyway my sister has recently been diagnosed with type two diabetes, she is quite overweight, and I have been encouraging her to start cycling which she is doing ok with, I then started looking at diet it seemed low carb low sugar was the best, I thought the diet ideas looked ok, and gave it a shot for me, the weight has fallen off me (mostly water I would guess) although further up my scales were deemed to not be that accurate (I accept this but they are good at seeing things change) my scales are showing the rapid weight loss as an increase in body fat and decrease in muscle hence my assumption that it is mainly water being lost currently. I think I can feel it at the back end of my rides too, getting more tired legs etc..

So I am going to and cycle (pardon the pun) low carb 2 weeks normal carb 2 weeks and see how I get on. My Target weight is 11st 4-5lbs I am 12st 1lb today and this time last year pretty close to 17st if not a bit more. As Greg points out it really is less in and more out, at best I burn around 600 extra calories per day on my 30 miles per weekdays and I try and get a couple of rides in at the weekend. Its easy to kid myself that I can eat what I like as I am doing 30 miles a day but the reality is I can easily "secretly eat" those 500-600 calories in foods that I do not really need, treats as it were!

Sorry not sure this turned out as informational as I thought it would be!


----------



## Marshmallow_Fluff (26 Sep 2012)

LOCO said:


> Well I cam back from Holiday and had put on 4lbs, even though I cycled a few hundred miles over the flatlands of Aquitaine, no big deal once I am back home it will drop off.
> 
> Two weeks in I was just maintaining my new weight, because I had slipped back in to old habits (even before I went away), Which is quite good as I now know that I can live quite a nice food lifestyle without putting on weight assuming I carry on my active lifestyle.
> 
> ...


 
That is so true! Moderate cycling (say, 14-16mph) will on average (depends on sex, age, weight, fitness level etc) burn approx 500 calories/hour.. which equals.. errrr.. 2 slices of _low-fat_ cheese pizza or two -small- scoops of chocolate fudge B&J's ice cream or 1 tiny cupcake + 1 latte (with semi skimmed milk)!!!! That's why I maintain: be strict with your caloric intake!!
Personally I advise to ditch sugar (and be very careful because you will find sugar in foods you'd never think of.. crisps, most commercially prepared bread, most flavoured yogurt, cheese, canned and pre-packaged food.. you name it!! So READ THE LABELS people! You'll be amazed!). By that alone you can reduce your daily calories by 20-30%.. Go _unprocessed_ as much as possible is another good way! A general rule when reading the lebels is: "if you can't pronounce it, don't eat it"!!! (much debate about that, I know.. but I swear by it!)


----------



## Andrew_P (26 Sep 2012)

I think the low carb diet is good as it is best described as cave man diet. In fact you eat less as there is much less choice of foods to snack on, and apart from nuts it does not feel natural to snack on savoury so I end up eating far less than I would do normally. I am not convinved it is a sensible long term lifestyle though but I would really recommend it as a starter point of a diet, I think it will help me break some bad habits. In the long term I will add back fruits and a root vegetables but may stay away from the man made stuff bread, pasta etc and might stay away from potatoes.

I reckon my 50 odd minutes each way is around 300 calories each journey (despite Garmin suggesting otherwise)


----------



## Sittingduck (26 Sep 2012)

I can't eat low carb... although I don't buy bread anymore (only wholemeal pita). I cut down spuds but still eat rice and pasta (white, not brown). I go through a load of fruit, which is carb. I do try to eat more protein than I used to though, with greek yogurt, eggs, chicken and ham being my weapons of choice.


----------



## srw (26 Sep 2012)

martint235 said:


> I'm going to have to look at my diet. According to the scales, I put on a stone during my week off work. And I cycled the Olympic Road Race route during that time. I also swam quite a bit so I could just be building muscle but I think it's my diet needs looking at.


 The book referenced in the second post on the thread (very good, incidentally) suggests that unless you're specifically bulking up it's very unlikely that you'll be able to put on more than a pound or two of muscle _in a year._


----------



## srw (26 Sep 2012)

Marshmallow_Fluff said:


> : "if you can't pronounce it, don't eat it"!!!


That's quinoa out the window, then.


----------



## srw (26 Sep 2012)

rvw said:


> For me it has to be mainly the "eat less" bit of the equation too: I know from bitter experience that I don't burn up nearly as much as I think I do, even on the tours when S & I have been doing 60-80 miles per day for a week.


Although neither of us lost weight on tour, I think we both managed to lose weight very effectively in the first two weeks after getting back - despite still eating for touring miles. It's the month or two since that have been the real killer...


----------



## GrumpyGregry (26 Sep 2012)

srw said:


> Although neither of us lost weight on tour, I think we both managed to lose weight very effectively in the first two weeks after getting back - despite still eating for touring miles. It's the month or two since that have been the real killer...


yeahbut, you're still killing those smilies

a battle lost does not lose the war.


----------



## srw (26 Sep 2012)

GregCollins said:


> yeahbut, you're still killing those smilies
> 
> a battle lost does not lose the war.


 Embarrassing admission - I ought to have reinstated one. And I appreciate the sentiment!

Other useful things I've taken away from a first read of that book linked in the thread:
(a) Fat percentage measurements aren't perfect, but they're indicative if performed consistently.
(b) Because they're indicative they enable you to do a simple bit of maths to get a pure lean weight, and gross up for a target weight at a sensible fat percentage. In my case that's confirmed 13.5 stone as sensible, with 12.5 as a stretch.
(c) Weight training and callisthenics are extremely useful in weight loss - to balance bike rides and other activity. And my diet is actually pretty good fundamentally, but I'm not that disciplined.
(d) I may not be competitive, but with a resting heart rate in the 40s or 50s and the ability to do an 80 mile ride without really thinking about it (if I don't get bored) I've got the body of an endurance athlete - just an overweight one. I need to focus on weight loss.
(e) Nevertheless, a 20% fall in weight will make riding 20% easier.


----------



## GrumpyGregry (26 Sep 2012)

I was (well) below 15st pre-LonJOG.

I didn't lose any weight doing it, but my shape changed.Beer is a wonderful source of calories after all.

I put weight on in July and August. (see comment re Beer above)


----------



## andyg9053 (5 Oct 2012)

Great thread, even with a few upsets in the middle, my take on eating late, at night our metabolism goes into a form of hibernation as well, it slows down. That is why breakfast is so important, as it kick starts it back into action. The metabolism being slow means that all of its actions slow down including absobtion so everything tends to just sit waiting for your body to spring back to life. Therefore it doesnt matter when you eat just what you eat. Definitely not cut and pasted just an opinion.
2nd thought on loosing weight, turn off your heating, or at least turn it down, I used to be in the Army and on cold winter exercises even eating anything I could lay my hands on, probably over 4000 cal a day, i still lost weight. I took it to be my body making heat to keep me warm using all those excess cals. Just a thought.


----------



## karl61 (5 Oct 2012)

no magic solution to weight loss......calories in v calories out, simple as that.


----------



## VamP (6 Oct 2012)

There's nothing quite like turning up to a thread a month late and (re)stating the blindingly obvious...


----------



## GrumpyGregry (6 Oct 2012)

Well it is all going pretty well....

pint of water when I get up, along with my various meds and supplements
cup of strong black coffee
hit the road
shower at work get changed
second coffee and a couple of Nature Valley granola bars and a banana
third coffee at 11ish
sandwich - chicken breast on brown - no mayo, a yoghurt, and an apple for lunch - pint of water
another sandwich - again no mayo-ey stuff for a mid-afternoon snack, another hit of nature valley
half hour before leaving work another pint of water
ride home
(tues and thurs - go to jogging club and run about a bit, mon, weds, and sun gym)
evening meal with half a plate of salad no dressing and a calorie counted main based on balance of calories available on myfitnesspal*
decaff coffee made with milk and four 'squares' of chocolate for pudding
bed


*which I'm told overestimates calorie burn rate on cycling so I'm logging all cycling as one exertion/speed step below reality to compensate.

Anyway, 10 bike commutes of 20km a week on this regime, no jelly legs, still nail it on 4 of these per week, no feeling faint, even managed to go to the pub twice in the last week and stayed on the lime and soda. Sobriety is an interesting journey.

feel thinner, looking thinner, hills getting easier (to the extent I've just ordered a new chain ring to upgrade the gearing on the fixed) scales don't lie and say I am getting thinner.


----------



## GrumpyGregry (15 Oct 2012)

One climbed, soberly and thoughtfully, off the wagon on Saturday night as we were entertaining. I allowed myself the cheese course and a desert, and drank three glasses of wine and a large Talisker at the meal's end. (over 5 hours so pretty good going by my normal glug, glug, glug standards)

One climbed back on the wagon on Sunday.


----------



## martint235 (15 Oct 2012)

Without wishing to derail the thread too much, I often think about climbing off the wagon. Unfortunately I think I'm still at the stage where I'd just beat myself up about it the next day.


----------



## GrumpyGregry (15 Oct 2012)

martint235 said:


> Without wishing to derail the thread too much, I often think about climbing off the wagon. Unfortunately I think I'm still at the stage where I'd just beat myself up about it the next day.


My on wagon travels are strictly temporary, unless, once off the wagon post diet, my drinking gets more out of control again than I'm comfortable with in which case I may have to think about a permanent seat on there.


----------



## Andrew_P (15 Oct 2012)

GregCollins said:


> Well it is all going pretty well....
> 
> 
> second coffee and a couple of Nature Valley granola bars and a banana.



Good going, I know you didn't ask but I dropped those bars for two reason firstly it pished me off that they are packed in 2's and secondly the second on the list is plain old sugar quite high in fat as well. You could have similar to your lunch and be way better off.

Anyway it is working so I don't know why I am butting my nose in.


----------



## GrumpyGregry (15 Oct 2012)

LOCO said:


> Good going, I know you didn't ask but I dropped those bars for two reason firstly it pished me off that they are packed in 2's and secondly the second on the list is plain old sugar quite high in fat as well. You could have similar to your lunch and be way better off.
> 
> Anyway it is working so I don't know why I am butting my nose in.


Butt away. That's the point of forum thread's. If I didn't want input I wouldn't post stuff.

Nature Valley bars are not anywhere near a perfectly balanced foodstuff.... but I like them.


----------



## GrumpyGregry (9 Nov 2012)

For some reason felt compelled to mount the scales this morning. Fourteen-and-a-half stone. So that's one down and slightly more than half of one to go. Time to stiffen the sinew, summon up the blood and focus the mind I think, as this is usually the point/weight where, in the past I've lost interest and the bounce-back has started.

Daughter and live-in boyfriend have joined my gym. Apparently we are to visit together this winter.


----------



## VamP (9 Nov 2012)

Good going. Now would be a good time to post a good benchmark time on your favourite hill to help with the motivation as the nights draw in and the food gets yummy(er).


----------



## GrumpyGregry (9 Nov 2012)

VamP said:


> Good going. Now would be a good time to post a good benchmark time on your *favourite hill* to help with the motivation as the nights draw in and the food gets yummy(er).


what is this strange 'favourite hill' of which you speak?

I have no favourites, I hate them all equally.


----------



## VamP (9 Nov 2012)

GregCollins said:


> what is this strange 'favourite hill' of which you speak?
> 
> I have no favourites, I hate them all equally.


 
Come come now, there must me one you hate more than all the others


----------



## GrumpyGregry (9 Nov 2012)

VamP said:


> Come come now, there must me one you hate more than all the others


Bedham. On fixed, with the road covered in leaves.


----------



## VamP (9 Nov 2012)

GregCollins said:


> Bedham. On fixed, with the road covered in leaves.


 
Is this a downhill hate though? Cos it's the uphill kind that you need to embrace right now


----------



## GrumpyGregry (9 Nov 2012)

VamP said:


> Is this a downhill hate though? Cos it's the uphill kind that you need to embrace right now


The downhill is exhilarating at all times. The climb is hateful. I may pay a visit this weekend if I can get a pass.


----------



## abgailnelson (5 Jun 2013)

pubrunner said:


> There really is no need to run at midnight.
> 
> I quote from an article on metabolic rate & exercise :
> 
> ...


 

I don't run at midnight of course that would make my body become weaker since that time is the time to rest. This is just really a useful information here....


----------

