# Does Cycling To Work Save You Money?



## Lovacott (19 Dec 2020)

The other day, one of the lads at work said "you must be saving a fortune on petrol now you're riding your bike" and I nodded and agreed.

But then a few seconds later, I piped up with "but"....

Although every 500 miles of cycle commuting saves me £60 on fuel, it takes me five weeks of cycling to do that 500 miles.

And in the last five weeks, I've spent way more than sixty quid on my bike.

Over the last five weeks, I spent out on two new tyres, new chain and freewheel, saddle bag, a couple of inner tubes, new pedals, a pair of ski gloves, can of WD40 and a chain checker tool.

So the answer to the question "you must have saved a lot of money...." is a resounding no.

But it was never the reason I started cycle commuting in the first place.

I'm not some kind of tight arse you know.

(I just wanted to have one).


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## ColinJ (19 Dec 2020)

@DCLane keeps a running count in his forum signature... currently showing "*Commutes to work*: *1169 *saving *£11690* in fuel and parking"!


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## classic33 (19 Dec 2020)

Often the biggest saving isn't monetary, but time.

Of what is listed,
_"I spent out on two new tyres, new chain and freewheel, saddle bag, a couple of inner tubes, new pedals, a pair of ski gloves, can of WD40 and a chain checker tool."_
how much of that will you be replacing in the next 500 miles? Starting out being the most expensive time/period on anything.


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## Lovacott (19 Dec 2020)

ColinJ said:


> @DCLane keeps a running count in his forum signature... currently showing "*Commutes to work*: *1169 *saving *£11690* in fuel and parking"!


I have free parking at work but not at home. There are 10 residents parking spots in our street of forty houses and all of us pay for permits to park.

Trouble is, that it's not often that you can find a spare spot and most weekdays, I have to leave the car in the town centre car park for £3.00 per day.

So most days I cycle to work, it costs me £3.00 before I even put my backside on the saddle.

Of course cycling is cheaper than driving, but only if you give up the car altogether and just use the bike.

For my ten years spent living in London, I never once owned a car (pointless in London). It was bike for work, bus, tube or walk for football or nights down the pub. I probably saved a fortune on car ownership but that was not my reason for not owning a car.

Living in Devon though, you kind of need a car (things are very far apart down here).

For me, saving money was never a motive when I recommenced cycle commuting eight months ago. 

I just wondered if I could do it and to answer my own question, I did it.

That's pretty much it.


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## Lovacott (19 Dec 2020)

classic33 said:


> Often the biggest saving isn't monetary, but time.
> 
> Of what is listed,
> _"I spent out on two new tyres, new chain and freewheel, saddle bag, a couple of inner tubes, new pedals, a pair of ski gloves, can of WD40 and a chain checker tool."_
> how much of that will you be replacing in the next 500 miles? Starting out being the most expensive time/period on anything.


Some things (like tools) I will never buy again (unless I lend them out and don't get them back!!!).

Tyres, they will probably be good for at least nine months to a year.

Chain and Freewheel would be an annual event.

The point I was trying to make in the OP was that people at work question my motive for cycling to work and many assume that I am simply trying to save money. Fact is, I've spent more on my cycling setup costs over the last eight months than I would have spent on a year of driving.

If I was looking to save money, I would go on compare meerkats and chop fifty quid off my house insurance.

I wouldn't get up at 4.30am and cycle up a 400 foot hill in the pitch black when it was pissing with wind and rain.


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## screenman (19 Dec 2020)

Lovacott said:


> The other day, one of the lads at work said "you must be saving a fortune on petrol now you're riding your bike" and I nodded and agreed.
> 
> But then a few seconds later, I piped up with "but"....
> 
> ...



There are far more costs to running a car than just the fuel alone, the average in the UK being around 40 per mile.


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## Lovacott (19 Dec 2020)

screenman said:


> There are far more costs to running a car than just the fuel alone, the average in the UK being around 40 per mile.


If I use my private car for work, I can claim back 28 pence per mile so if we take 28p as a baseline, cycling is cheaper than driving.

But I think you are missing the point.

Nobody gets up earlier to get soaked with rain and cut up by car commuters just to save a few pence per week.

I could save more by cancelling my NowTV and Netflix packages than I could ever save by cycling to work.


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## screenman (19 Dec 2020)

Lovacott said:


> If I use my private car for work, I can claim back 28 pence per mile so if we take 28p as a baseline, cycling is cheaper than driving.
> 
> But I think you are missing the point.
> 
> ...



Do you realize how tight some cyclist are? Believe me they would.


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## Lovacott (19 Dec 2020)

screenman said:


> Do you realize how tight some cyclist are? Believe me they would.


From what I see locally, you can't be considered a cyclist unless you have at least two grands worth of bike underneath you.


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## screenman (19 Dec 2020)

Lovacott said:


> From what I see locally, you can't be considered a cyclist unless you have at least two grands worth of bike underneath you.



You must live in a posh area, the majority of bikes being used daily are nothing like that, just that they may be the only one's that come to your attention. I wager 90% of the people on this forum do not own a bike anywhere near as costly as that.


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## Lovacott (19 Dec 2020)

screenman said:


> You must live in a posh area, the majority of bikes being used daily are nothing like that, just that they may be the only one's that come to your attention. I wager 90% of the people on this forum do not own a bike anywhere near as costly as that.


I'm talking about the club cyclists with all of the kit and the three grand road bike.

I'm not one of them. My bike is a shitty old 20" Apollo hard tail MTB with a few inexpensive upgrades and a fair bit of fine tuning.

While they may whizz up the hill past me in the summer months, they are strangely absent since it got dark and wet in the evenings?

Meanwhile, cheap as chips me will continue to build leg strength and stamina over the winter ready to whoop their arses in March.

Like I said earlier, it's not about the money.


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## Slick (19 Dec 2020)

I tend to agree with the OP as monetary savings were never my motivation and I've certainly spent more on my bikes than my cars although if you want to get precise, you need to factor in the purchase price for a fair comparison. 

As far as workmates go, they have given up trying to understand why I cycle in when it's lashing outside and I've given up trying to explain it. Just enjoy your own journey and every now and again pity them for theirs.


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## steveindenmark (19 Dec 2020)

This is a complicated issue. I dont look at it in monetary terms. If it were more expensive to ride a bike than drive a car. I would still have a bike. But not so many of them.


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## rivers (19 Dec 2020)

Lovacott said:


> If I use my private car for work, I can claim back 28 pence per mile so if we take 28p as a baseline, cycling is cheaper than driving.
> 
> But I think you are missing the point.
> 
> ...


 By cycling to work, I get to have a lie in (if you can consider getting up at 6:30 a lie in). I know how long it takes me to go to work cycling (1:08 this time of year, 1:01ish in the summer), whereas the car can be anything from 40 minutes to 2.5 hours depending on traffic. 
I save time and a small bit of money cycling to work (petrol and parking charges).
And don't get rid of netflix, get rid of your TV license. You'll save something like an extra £4/month.


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## rivers (19 Dec 2020)

Lovacott said:


> I'm talking about the club cyclists with all of the kit and the three grand road bike.
> 
> I'm not one of them. My bike is a shitty old 20" Apollo hard tail MTB with a few inexpensive upgrades and a fair bit of fine tuning.
> 
> ...



They're probably on their turbos zwifting away.


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## MontyVeda (19 Dec 2020)

Although I no longer cycle to work, I've mostly cycled to work for the last 20 years... so considering the cost of twenty years of insurance, VED, MOT, fuel, repairs and the actual cars... vs one bike costing a few hundred and twenty years of brake blocks, chains, tyres, wheels, cassettes and chain sets... I reckon I've saved a bit.


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## dave r (19 Dec 2020)

I'm retired now, but when i was working I cycled to and from work for over 30 years, and was car free for most of those years, it started out as a money saving exercise, I had a new girlfriend, wanted to get married and buy a house, I hadn't long passed my test in a car but realized I could afford the car or afford the mortgage I couldn't afford both so I went with the mortgage and cycled to and from work. I recon I saved a fortune over those 30 years by not running a car. In the last three years before I retired I was running a car but still cycled to work.


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## screenman (19 Dec 2020)

Lovacott said:


> I'm talking about the club cyclists with all of the kit and the three grand road bike.
> 
> I'm not one of them. My bike is a shitty old 20" Apollo hard tail MTB with a few inexpensive upgrades and a fair bit of fine tuning.
> 
> ...



That reads like a huge lot of green eyed going on there. Fine if you do not want a £2000 bike but not need to knock us that own them.


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## DCLane (19 Dec 2020)

I've not been able to commute by bike since March as my university's made me work from home. But when I do I'm faster into work by about 5 minutes and about 5-10 minutes slower back on average: I'm commuting into Leeds and the traffic there can be bad. So I've 'lost' about 150-200 commutes, which would be another £1500-2000 saved as a minimum.

The 'saving' is taken as parking plus petrol and maintenance costs. If I park at work it's now £16 a day (reduced from £25) but £8 if nearby and a 15-minute walk (which would mean I'm always quicker by bike). Plus petrol costs for the 20 mile round trip and maintaining the car.

The bikes I use I've put together myself for about £300 each and they've done thousands of miles, paying for themselves. Generally I'll replace a tyre every 2-3000 miles and chains every 600 (winter) 1500 (summer). Other issues are rare but I've had the odd puncture and cable to repair. Oh, and I got blown over once, damaging a frame beyond repair. My bikes are aluminium-framed road/cross frames for summer/winter as it's a road-only commute.

For me it's about fitness. But it also allows me to be less stressed and plan or reflect on the day and that's been commented on at work and home.

I've got the clothes so they're bought and paid for and buy parts ahead and often in bulk: I've got a year's worth of chains bought plus I'm working through a bulk purchase of tyres. Once you've made the major purchases it's done.


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## biggs682 (19 Dec 2020)

Lovacott said:


> From what I see locally, you can't be considered a cyclist unless you have at least two grands worth of bike underneath you.


That's just a load of tosh I have a garage full of bikes and the most expensive one cost less than £300 .

Yes you can save money

Well said @DCLane


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## Lovacott (19 Dec 2020)

DCLane said:


> I've not been able to commute by bike since March as my university's made me work from home. But when I do I'm faster into work by about 5 minutes and about 5-10 minutes slower back on average: I'm commuting into Leeds and the traffic there can be bad. So I've 'lost' about 150-200 commutes, which would be another £1500-2000 saved as a minimum.
> 
> The 'saving' is taken as parking plus petrol and maintenance costs. If I park at work it's now £16 a day (reduced from £25) but £8 if nearby and a 15-minute walk (which would mean I'm always quicker by bike). Plus petrol costs for the 20 mile round trip and maintaining the car.



I hear you and I fully understand that long term, ditching the motor and cycling to work is way much better for your wallet, your health and your sanity.

The point of this thread was to play devil's advocate but there is also a grain of truth in my argument.

Short term, there is no financial gain in cycling to work (which is what many at work seem to think I am after).

One of our lorry drivers said last week (after I'd pedalled through the gate in torrential rain), "Christ mate, you must be hard up riding a bike in this weather". The fact is, little did he know that I'd spent the best part of £100 in the last seven days keeping my bike on the road.

The last thing on my mind when I started cycle commuting was saving money.


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## Lovacott (19 Dec 2020)

DCLane said:


> If I park at work it's now £16 a day (reduced from £25) but £8 if nearby and a 15-minute walk (which would mean I'm always quicker by bike). Plus petrol costs for the 20 mile round trip and maintaining the car.



Back in the 1980's, I rented a two bedroom flat in Kingsdown in Bristol for £13 per week.

It was five minutes walk from the city centre and perched atop a hill with sweeping views towards the Cotswolds.

Something has gone wrong in this world.


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## I like Skol (19 Dec 2020)

The question should be "Does cycling to work make you a God amongst men?"

The financial side may or may not work in your favour depending on how you do it, but the inescapable truth is that it pays dividends for your health. In my experience, by far the strongest riders are the regular commuters. Non-commuters have to work long and hard, training to match the gritty stamina and strength of the hardened, all year round commuting cyclist.


Lovacott said:


> "Christ mate, you must be hard up riding a bike in this weather"


FTFY


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## Lovacott (19 Dec 2020)

Slick said:


> As far as workmates go, they have given up trying to understand why I cycle in when it's lashing outside and I've given up trying to explain it. Just enjoy your own journey and every now and again pity them for theirs.



It turns out that the other 30 people at work have been running a book on me. A sweepstake where the winner is the one who most closely guesses the number of days I cycle to work before throwing in the towel.

The longest guess was 200 days which is the barrier I broke through yesterday morning so they did the pay out to the winner yesterday afternoon. The winner was my boss and I suspect that the 200 day guess was him being diplomatic?

Some of them had put their fivers on me only lasting a week with the majority thinking I would give up once it started to get dark in the evenings.


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## Archie_tect (19 Dec 2020)

Lovacott said:


> I have free parking at work but not at home. There are 10 residents parking spots in our street of forty houses and all of us pay for permits to park.
> 
> Trouble is, that it's not often that you can find a spare spot and most weekdays, I have to leave the car in the town centre car park for £3.00 per day.
> 
> ...


I have the prefect answer Lovacott... leave your car at work with free parking during the week and save on the £3 a day parking at home... £15 a week saving right there on parking and £12 a week on fuel saved! + you have your car at work for business trips when you can recover 28p/mile. You have the car anyway so you aren't saving on the car's annual service, insurance, VED and running costs. [28p a mile is unreasonable ,your firm will be charging that out at the HMRC rate, which is still 45p a mile I think].


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## DCLane (19 Dec 2020)

Lovacott said:


> Back in the 1980's, I rented a two bedroom flat in Kingsdown in Bristol for £13 per week.
> 
> It was five minutes walk from the city centre and perched atop a hill with sweeping views towards the Cotswolds.
> 
> Something has gone wrong in this world.



Agreed. My student houses were £17 and £10 a week for a nice house by a beach in N. Ireland. Son no. 1 pays £400 a month for similar at the moment in Lincoln. And no, I'm not _that_ old.



Lovacott said:


> It turns out that the other 30 people at work have been running a book on me. A sweepstake where the winner is the one who most closely guesses the number of days I cycle to work before throwing in the towel.
> 
> The longest guess was 200 days which is the barrier I broke through yesterday morning so they did the pay out to the winner yesterday afternoon. The winner was my boss and I suspect that the 200 day guess was him being diplomatic?
> 
> Some of them had put their fivers on me only lasting a week with the majority thinking I would give up once it started to get dark in the evenings.



Well done. You'll find it makes you fitter without realising. Even when wet and cold. Colleagues will have a new-found respect for their nutty co-worker.

My colleagues did the same, with one saying he'd not timetabled me for September's teaching because I'd be dead by the end of the summer having started on May 31st.

Several others now ride into work by bike  . It does help that we've secure and dry underground bike storage - now doubled from 10 years ago - and a workshop we can use a few days a week, plus showers and lockers. Or we _did_ have before Covid made them shut it all.


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## Archie_tect (19 Dec 2020)

Lovacott said:


> It turns out that the other 30 people at work have been running a book on me. A sweepstake where the winner is the one who most closely guesses the number of days I cycle to work before throwing in the towel.
> 
> The longest guess was 200 days which is the barrier I broke through yesterday morning so they did the pay out to the winner yesterday afternoon. The winner was my boss and I suspect that the 200 day guess was him being diplomatic?
> 
> Some of them had put their fivers on me only lasting a week with the majority thinking I would give up once it started to get dark in the evenings.


You should have had an arrangement with someone to share the winnings... basic error! 😊


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## MichaelW2 (19 Dec 2020)

I recon on sending about £100/year on cycle maintenance for premium tyres, transmission parts etc. My 12 yr old bike cost about £800.
Total car costs are usually much higher than people estimate. Before you put any fuel in you have probably spent £2000 on tax, insurance, mot, tyres, servicing and parking.
Many people by cars on credit or lease which costs a fortune (£4000/year?)


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## glasgowcyclist (19 Dec 2020)

Saving cash has never been a primary motivation for me to cycle to work but a happy consequence.

Driving into Glasgow takes over 45 minutes and the cost of parking makes it prohibitively expensive. The cheaper option of public transport takes about an hour and costs £1000 per annum.

Cycling takes 30 minutes and for over twenty years I did that on an old mountain bike that cost me £400 new. Even if I spent the crazy amount of £100 a year in cycle maintenance etc, I’m still quids in by a huge amount over the other transport options. When you take into account the life-extending health benefits, reduced burden on the NHS and the environmental benefits as well, it’s crazy that people are choosing not to cycle.


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## sleuthey (19 Dec 2020)

Lovacott said:


> And in the last five weeks, I've spent way more than sixty quid on my bike.



I know people who have put their car through an annual service with MOT and added a zero to your figure. I know someone who had the engine rebuilt on their Seat Ibiza and added two zeros to your figure.


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## cyberknight (19 Dec 2020)

All of the above
Saving on the cost of buying a car , VED, insurance, wear and tear before you even put fuel in it for it to sit at work for 8+ hours a day unused.
My new commuter cost £400 on c2w , i actually had £450 to buy a few bits over a year and i usually spend around £30 a month ish in bits / clothes etc( but thats over 3 bikes used for work and leisure but costs are put in here ) so £67.50 a month , in fuel alone i would use at least £80 a month in total to run for a year and after that cost goes down to £30 a month when the bike is paid for .


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## Sharky (19 Dec 2020)

Cost wise not much in it. When I commuted into London, couldn't do it every day, so there was the dilema of the train season ticket. Should I buy a monthly or yearly to save money or not buy a season ticket at all and pay singles or drive into London (yes you could do that in the 70's) on the days you could not cycle.

When I was poor, I tried to not buy season tickets, but when I was in a better paid job, just bought an annual season ticket regardless. 

For me, it was never about cost saving, it was more about time saving. I could get 2 to 3 hours training in on the days I cycled, with out impacting too much on family life.


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## Archie_tect (19 Dec 2020)

sleuthey said:


> I know people who have put their car through an annual service with MOT and added a zero to your figure. I know someone who had the engine rebuilt on their Seat Ibiza and added two zeros to your figure.


Cor Sleuthey, you know people who are getting seriously ripped off by their car mechanics!


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## kingrollo (19 Dec 2020)

Lovacott said:


> The other day, one of the lads at work said "you must be saving a fortune on petrol now you're riding your bike" and I nodded and agreed.
> 
> But then a few seconds later, I piped up with "but"....
> 
> ...



IME no - the fun fitness and health are the gains. And petrol is the cheapest part of running a car.

I've been WFH and hating it - where as my colleagues love not having to commute - I miss it.


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## Lovacott (19 Dec 2020)

sleuthey said:


> I know people who have put their car through an annual service with MOT and added a zero to your figure. I know someone who had the engine rebuilt on their Seat Ibiza and added two zeros to your figure.


I'm getting shot to death here based on the thread title.

But if you read my content, you will see that I one hundred percent agree with every word you have just said.

I've never once owned a bike which needed a £1,000 gearbox replacement.


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## cyberknight (19 Dec 2020)

Lovacott said:


> I'm getting shot to death here based on the thread title.
> 
> But if you read my content, you will see that I one hundred percent agree with every word you have just said.
> 
> I've never once owned a bike which needed a £1,000 gearbox replacement.


indeed our last car was going to cost £800 as something was farked and i had read the engine was not much cop and tended to go after 40.000 miles


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## kingrollo (19 Dec 2020)

As a slight aside - the better cyclists at the club I am in - tend not to ride the boutique bikes. Boardman, Giant tend to dominate - it's as though the legs do the talking.

.....whilst I'm there on my flashy Italian thing ...farting around at 13mph !!!!


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## MichaelW2 (19 Dec 2020)

glasgowcyclist said:


> The cheaper option of public transport takes about an hour and costs £1000 per annum.



So many people think that any amount of money spent on cycling above the student/unemployed budget is somehow wasted or excessive. These are people who happily spend money on lifestyles in excess of student/unemployed level. The notion that any money spent on cycling is "wasted" begs the question, what is the cost of the alternative? As you say, public transport for poor people is not cost free. An annual bus pass starts at around £500. After 10 years which could be the amortised life of a bicycle, you have spent £5000.


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## Lovacott (19 Dec 2020)

DCLane said:


> Agreed. My student houses were £17 and £10 a week for a nice house by a beach in N. Ireland. Son no. 1 pays £400 a month for similar at the moment in Lincoln. And no, I'm not _that_ old.



My daughter is at Falmouth University and pays £400 a month for a houseshare with two others.

Insane.


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## Lovacott (19 Dec 2020)

MichaelW2 said:


> An annual bus pass starts at around £500.



But once you've got the bus pass, you are sorted. Meanwhile, us cyclists are forking out daily for GoreTex jackets and padded underpants.


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## Slick (19 Dec 2020)

Lovacott said:


> It turns out that the other 30 people at work have been running a book on me. A sweepstake where the winner is the one who most closely guesses the number of days I cycle to work before throwing in the towel.
> 
> The longest guess was 200 days which is the barrier I broke through yesterday morning so they did the pay out to the winner yesterday afternoon. The winner was my boss and I suspect that the 200 day guess was him being diplomatic?
> 
> Some of them had put their fivers on me only lasting a week with the majority thinking I would give up once it started to get dark in the evenings.


I reckon that is pretty standard fare in most work places. Probably, or certainly one main reason I took to cycle commuting was when the first time I did it, everyone laughed and said I wouldn't do it again. I moved house, about 15miles from work and they laughed again and because it was quite hilly they said I wouldn't cycle in from there. Then just like your mob they reckoned would give it upon winter but I just kept turning up on the bike, which is why it's rarely mentioned anymore. Eventually even the most ardent non believer is turned.


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## glasgowcyclist (19 Dec 2020)

Lovacott said:


> But once you've got the bus pass, you are sorted. Meanwhile, us cyclists are forking out daily for GoreTex jackets and padded underpants.



People who use public transport need coats, hats and umbrellas too.


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## dave r (19 Dec 2020)

Slick said:


> I reckon that is pretty standard fare in most work places. Probably, or certainly one main reason I took to cycle commuting was when the first time I did it, everyone laughed and said I wouldn't do it again. I moved house, about 15miles from work and they laughed again and because it was quite hilly they said I wouldn't cycle in from there. Then just like your mob they reckoned would give it upon winter but I just kept turning up on the bike, which is why it's rarely mentioned anymore. Eventually even the most ardent non believer is turned.



in most places I worked I was considered weird for cycling to work in all weathers, more so when people found out I had a driving license but didn't drive, two places I worked I used to drive the company vans.


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## sleuthey (19 Dec 2020)

Lovacott said:


> I'm getting shot to death here based on the thread title.
> 
> But if you read my content, you will see that I one hundred percent agree with every word you have just said.
> 
> I've never once owned a bike which needed a £1,000 gearbox replacement.



As @kingrolli says , the fuel is cheaper than the other aspects of running a car. I think you have just had a few weeks where your bike has required allot of maintenance all at once but from now if you keep riding as you have the price per mile will come down.


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## PapaZita (19 Dec 2020)

Lovacott said:


> But once you've got the bus pass, you are sorted. Meanwhile, us cyclists are forking out daily for GoreTex jackets and padded underpants.



Daily? Maybe I‘m just one of those typical tight cyclists, but I tend to wash the padded underpants and use them again.😀


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## dave r (19 Dec 2020)

Lovacott said:


> But once you've got the bus pass, you are sorted. Meanwhile, us cyclists are forking out daily for GoreTex jackets and padded underpants.



When I was commuting I did so in ordinary clothes, and I've never worn padding.


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## lazybloke (19 Dec 2020)

Significant savings if bikes replace cars completely.

We went from 2 cars to 1, so i get 'half' savings. Still, it pays for an extra holiday each year. Er, not this year.


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## MrGrumpy (19 Dec 2020)

Have I saved money cycling to work , hmmm probably but not as much as some on here


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## simongt (19 Dec 2020)

screenman said:


> average in the UK being around 40 per mil


I believe the AA quote 60p / mile. However, any bike will have occasions when there's a sizeable outlay, but even then, it's still cheaper way of transport and you should be healthier as a result. If cars were fitted with a taxi style meter showing the cost per mile of that respective model, I think maybe some habitual drivers would have second thoughts about venturing out so often.


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## Lovacott (19 Dec 2020)

DCLane said:


> Well done. You'll find it makes you fitter without realising.



Last night on the way home, I went up a pretty big hill which I couldn't get up at all in the first month. I'd get off about half way up and walk the rest.

After the first month, I managed to get all the way up on the bike but I could barely speak by the time I got to the top.

Last night, I got to the top without changing down and I took a call from my son and had a bit of a chat as I was nearing the peak.

I'm a million miles away from where I was back in March thanks to my bike.


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## SkipdiverJohn (19 Dec 2020)

MichaelW2 said:


> So many people think that any amount of money spent on cycling above the student/unemployed budget is somehow wasted or excessive.



Yep, that'll be me.  If cycling is costing you more than a few pence a mile when calculated over an extended period, you're doing it wrong. Bikes can be bought cheaply, even high quality ones. Refusing to pay more than £100 doesn't mean you have to ride a horrid BSO, it just means you have to find the bargains. DIY maintenance is cheap if you run durably engineered bikes, and your tyre wear rate ought to be no more than wearing out the leather on your shoes.
I've just fitted a salvaged tyre and salvaged inner tube to a salvaged bike. I reckon it's probably got at least a thousand miles left in it before I will need to fit yet another salvaged tyre to it. Despite my ultra frugal cycling regime, my main reason for riding is not to save money on travel, I just don't see any reason to waste money on cycling any more that I will waste money buying a new highly depreciating car every couple of years.


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## Rusty Nails (19 Dec 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Yep, that'll be me.  If cycling is costing you more than a few pence a mile when calculated over an extended period, you're doing it wrong. Bikes can be bought cheaply, even high quality ones. Refusing to pay more than £100 doesn't mean you have to ride a horrid BSO, it just means you have to find the bargains. DIY maintenance is cheap if you run durably engineered bikes, and your tyre wear rate ought to be no more than wearing out the leather on your shoes.
> I've just fitted a salvaged tyre and salvaged inner tube to a salvaged bike. I reckon it's probably got at least a thousand miles left in it before I will need to fit yet another salvaged tyre to it. Despite my ultra frugal cycling regime, my main reason for riding is not to save money on travel, I just don't see any reason to waste money on cycling any more that I will waste money buying a new highly depreciating car every couple of years.



Why would anyone waste money on food from Tesco when they can get damaged or discarded food only just out its sell by date skipdiving round the back of their local supermarket.

More money than sense, some people.


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## MichaelW2 (19 Dec 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Yep, that'll be me.  If cycling is costing you more than a few pence a mile when calculated over an extended period, you're doing it wrong. Bikes can be bought cheaply, even high quality ones. Refusing to pay more than £100 doesn't mean you have to ride a horrid BSO, it just means you have to find the bargains. DIY maintenance is cheap if you run durably engineered bikes, and your tyre wear rate ought to be no more than wearing out the leather on your shoes.
> I've just fitted a salvaged tyre and salvaged inner tube to a salvaged bike. I reckon it's probably got at least a thousand miles left in it before I will need to fit yet another salvaged tyre to it. Despite my ultra frugal cycling regime, my main reason for riding is not to save money on travel, I just don't see any reason to waste money on cycling any more that I will waste money buying a new highly depreciating car every couple of years.


You need a fair bit of skill or luck to find, select and acquire a fine old bike at cut price, and to know how to kit it out for pennies. I did that with my London commuter bike mainly to avoid tears after theft. The bike was so nice I still would have cried but it survived the mean streets.

"The more you carry, the less you need to know"


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## lane (19 Dec 2020)

screenman said:


> There are far more costs to running a car than just the fuel alone, the average in the UK being around 40 per mile.



The Government allow you to claim 45p a mile tax free to cover costs. Don't think it costs me that much or even 40p but it varies person to person.


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## SkipdiverJohn (19 Dec 2020)

Rusty Nails said:


> Why would anyone waste money on food from Tesco when they can get damaged or discarded food only just out its sell by date skipdiving round the back of their local supermarket.
> 
> More money than sense, some people.



That reminds me I found a tin of chilli con carne at the back of my cupboard the other week. It went out of date in 2016. Needless to say I opened it, and since it looked OK and smelled OK, I ate it. Delicious!


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## screenman (19 Dec 2020)

lane said:


> The Government allow you to claim 45p a mile tax free to cover costs. Don't think it costs me that much or even 40p but it varies person to person.



Are you including depreciation into your costs.


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## lane (19 Dec 2020)

screenman said:


> Are you including depreciation into your costs.



Yes but depreciation can be one of the biggest variables. My depreciation costs are much lower than some people. I think those I know with big SUV on a three year lease also have a much higher cost than me.


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## Moodyman (19 Dec 2020)

I like Skol said:


> The question should be "Does cycling to work make you a God amongst men?"
> 
> The financial side may or may not work in your favour depending on how you do it, but the inescapable truth is that it pays dividends for your health. In my experience, by far the strongest riders are the regular commuters. Non-commuters have to work long and hard, training to match the *gritty stamina and strength of the hardened, all year round commuting cyclist.*
> 
> FTFY



This often gets overlooked. The seasoned cyclists at my various workplaces were often the most laid back. I think once you've battled horizontal rain and wind, there not much that the average workplace can faze you with.


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## screenman (19 Dec 2020)

lane said:


> Yes but depreciation can be one of the biggest variables. My depreciation costs are much lower than some people. I think those I know with big SUV on a three year lease also have a much higher cost than me.



I did say average in my original post, I have in the past owned cars that would likely cost me at least couple of quid a mile to run now, if not more. My current one is costing about 17.5p per mile in depreciation, which is often more than it costs in fuel. Mind you depreciation also applies to bikes of a certain value.


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## Rusty Nails (19 Dec 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> That reminds me I found a tin of chilli con carne at the back of my cupboard the other week. It went out of date in 2016. Needless to say I opened it, and since it looked OK and smelled OK, I ate it. Delicious!



That's nothing. This year, in a box in the loft, I found a couple of unopened miniatures of coffee liqueur and Grand Marnier that I'd had since a holiday in Ibiza in the early 70s.

Almost 50 years on they still tasted good.

To my wife's disgust I don't throw old tins of food out without checking them to see if they're OK to eat. They almost always are.


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## geocycle (19 Dec 2020)

Depreciation of bikes is also relevant, my thorn rohloff in 2006 for an eye watering £1100, never spent so much on a bike. But, if I sold it now I’d want most of that back. Yes, I have spent lots on cycling over the years but far less than my Ford has depreciated in the last 4 years.


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## AndreaJ (19 Dec 2020)

I’ve been cycling to work for about 3 years now and when I started some of our regular customers and my boss were guessing how long I would stick it for, it ranged from a couple of weeks to the first winter- they have all had to admit that they were wrong although some still think It’s crazy to cycle in the rain when you have a car. It’s only between 4-7 miles depending on which way I go but has saved me quite a bit of money in diesel costs with the only extras I have bought being decent lights, rucksack and pro vis jacket.


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## bikingdad90 (19 Dec 2020)

DCLane said:


> Agreed. My student houses were £17 and £10 a week for a nice house by a beach in N. Ireland. Son no. 1 pays £400 a month for similar at the moment in Lincoln. And no, I'm not _that_ old.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Which university are you at? My brother teaches at Leeds College and until lockdown happened I used to frequent Kaplan professional college in Leeds City centre every few months for my studies. I miss popping into the Evan cycles and ChainReaction cycles with a 99p filter coffee from Pret on a lunchtime waiting for the hour to pass (normally got 30mins at work).


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## DCLane (19 Dec 2020)

bikingdad90 said:


> Which university are you at? My brother teaches at Leeds College and until lockdown happened I used to frequent Kaplan professional college in Leeds City centre every few months for my studies. I miss popping into the Evan cycles and ChainReaction cycles with a 99p filter coffee from Pret on a lunchtime waiting for the hour to pass (normally got 30mins at work).



I'm at Leeds Beckett (used to be Leeds Metropolitan / Leeds Poly) and have been there fore almost 20 years.


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## mjr (19 Dec 2020)

screenman said:


> You must live in a posh area, the majority of bikes being used daily are nothing like that, just that they may be the only one's that come to your attention. I wager 90% of the people on this forum do not own a bike anywhere near as costly as that.


Mine are priceless. To me.


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## classic33 (19 Dec 2020)

Lovacott said:


> But once you've got the bus pass, you are sorted. Meanwhile, us cyclists are forking out daily for GoreTex jackets and padded underpants.


Nay lad
I was doing an 181/2 mile commute into Leeds, 11 out of every 14 days, wearing pretty much the same as what I'm wearing now, footwear aside.

Later doing 250 miles over a four day weekend, split shifts, with the same setup. If I'd wanted to do this on public transport, it would when available have taken close on two hours each way. I was the "nutter" cycling into work, whatever the weather. And like you, they ran a book on how long I'd last doing it.

I can't drive, so my own transport was two legs or two wheels.


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## Jenkins (19 Dec 2020)

Saved me money? Not by a large amount given what I've spent on bikes and spares over the years, but the health benifits (physical & mental) far outweigh any monetary values.


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## lazybloke (20 Dec 2020)

geocycle said:


> Depreciation of bikes is also relevant, my thorn rohloff in 2006 for an eye watering £1100, never spent so much on a bike. But, if I sold it now I’d want most of that back. Yes, I have spent lots on cycling over the years but far less than my Ford has depreciated in the last 4 years.


Two of bikes were 2nd hand freebies, the other was a gift, so I don't worry about depreciation. 
I will spent money on occasional upgrades, although I tend to scour ebay for bargain prices, or wait for clearance sales.


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## slowmotion (20 Dec 2020)

A long time ago I used to drive five and a half miles to work each way across vaguely central west London. Then I discovered two wheels. It didn't save me a bean but it was a lot faster and a shed more fun.


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## RoubaixCube (20 Dec 2020)

Used to cost me about £8.50 a day or whatever the cap is

Bus to the station (£1.50)
Underground to work (2.80)

and same again in reverse when going home. 

In hindsight, I could have just gotten up a few hours earlier and rocked the bus all the way to work but the journey by bus is quite long winded and takes an hour at the least and is even longer depending on traffic and i dont like public transport very much but theres no way im paying congestion charge fees and £3p/h for parking in central london and I hate spending hours on the bus unless im stuck on it riding it to Timbuktu.

I worked 4 days a week so it didnt make sense for me to get a weekly pass where i could have saved more money.

Total journey times about 40-50mins on public transport - Cycling = 27mins on a really good day.

So yeah. Getting a bike did save me a tonne of money but most of that probably went on buying more useless loot for the bike


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## swee'pea99 (20 Dec 2020)

To answer the OP, not now. Coming downstairs is really cheap. But the thing that got me back into cycling, after a gap of what must now I think about it have been something like 15 years (I'd been keen as a teen, then got into motorbikes, then gave them up on account of kids) was when my monthly travelcard went up to £120. For the next 15 years or so I saved £120+ a month, every month. I had to buy new tyres every now & again, the odd brake block, chain, cable. I did all my own maintenance. I bought new bikes (well, new old bikes, off ebay) but always sold the old one, generally for what I'd paid for it, or more.

All in all, I'd say commuting by bike must have saved me somewhere a good way north of £20,000.

And I loved it. I really did. I miss it.


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## slowmotion (20 Dec 2020)

swee'pea99 said:


> And I loved it. I really did. I miss it.



So do I. Rain or shine, summer or winter. You got to work with a well oxygenated brain, and back home at night with a system full of endorphins. It was blooming good fun.


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## flake99please (20 Dec 2020)

Short answer..... Yes, and by some considerable amount.


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## screenman (20 Dec 2020)

Only if you cycle to work, I have 6 bikes hanging up here all going down in value, I have never owned a business that suited cycling to work on a regular basis, last time that I had a job and did so was 1974.


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## Lovacott (20 Dec 2020)

swee'pea99 said:


> To answer the OP, not now. Coming downstairs is really cheap. But the thing that got me back into cycling, after a gap of what must now I think about it have been something like 15 years (I'd been keen as a teen, then got into motorbikes, then gave them up on account of kids) was when my monthly travelcard went up to £120. For the next 15 years or so I saved £120+ a month, every month. I had to buy new tyres every now & again, the odd brake block, chain, cable. I did all my own maintenance. I bought new bikes (well, new old bikes, off ebay) but always sold the old one, generally for what I'd paid for it, or more.
> 
> All in all, I'd say commuting by bike must have saved me somewhere a good way north of £20,000.
> 
> And I loved it. I really did. I miss it.


I used to cycle commute in London to save on fares but I also saved on time as well.

My nearest station for the line I needed was a 20 minute walk with a 15 minute walk at the other end. 

I could cycle the route about ten minutes quicker door to door.

Like you, I stopped once kids came along and I'd got a new job with a vehicle thrown in.

Then I did a stint from 2000 to 2007 down here in Devon and I've just started again earlier this year.

I cycle commute now 4 days per week. I'm planning on keeping it up until retirement in about 8 years time.


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## Lovacott (20 Dec 2020)

rivers said:


> By cycling to work, I get to have a lie in (if you can consider getting up at 6:30 a lie in). I know how long it takes me to go to work cycling (1:08 this time of year, 1:01ish in the summer), whereas the car can be anything from 40 minutes to 2.5 hours depending on traffic.
> I save time and a small bit of money cycling to work (petrol and parking charges).
> And don't get rid of netflix, get rid of your TV license. You'll save something like an extra £4/month.


I was hoping that Boris would carry through with his promise of de-criminalising non licence paying but it hasn't happened yet. If it did happen, it would be the end of the BBC.

That said, there is no way that the BBC can prove in a court that you were watching terrestrial telly if you chose to simply deny it.


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## Ming the Merciless (20 Dec 2020)

AndreaJ said:


> I’ve been cycling to work for about 3 years now and when I started some of our regular customers and my boss were guessing how long I would stick it for, it ranged from a couple of weeks to the first winter- they have all had to admit that they were wrong although some still think It’s crazy to cycle in the rain when you have a car. It’s only between 4-7 miles depending on which way I go but has saved me quite a bit of money in diesel costs with the only extras I have bought being decent lights, rucksack and pro vis jacket.



It’s crazy to drive 4-7 miles when you have the option of a bike


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## Ming the Merciless (20 Dec 2020)

Buying goretex jackets every day. Absolute nonsense. I’m still using the cycle kit I bought in 2003.


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## SkipdiverJohn (20 Dec 2020)

MichaelW2 said:


> You need a fair bit of skill or luck to find, select and acquire a fine old bike at cut price, and to know how to kit it out for pennies. I did that with my London commuter bike mainly to avoid tears after theft.



I think it's patience more than anything, I've bought several high quality but silly cheap machines, each time watching a lot of overpriced examples and molested junk and just sat on my hands, waiting for the right one. My Royal tourer took over a year to turn up. It's not perfect but it's way better than I've any right to expect it to be for £30!

I've never had quality bargains from Inner London, just cheapo fixer-uppers. All the nice stuff has come from the outer fringes or around the M25 outside of London. The wealthier the area, the better the condition with less signs of high mileage, often one owner from new. It seems a bike from the middle of London will either be good but expensive or it will be hard-used and tired. I've never found a good but cheap one, probably too many people who can't drive all searching for bikes within a small geographic area. I suspect a lot of well-off people in the leafy, pleasant to ride in areas bought some quite pricey bikes in the pre-internet era, because their budget wasn't tight but then never actually rode them that much. Those bikes reappear during garage clear outs or because someone has given up riding due to age, and there is usually nothing much wrong with them beyond having flat tyres that have seen better days. Sometimes they look to be 100% original condition, like nothing has ever been replaced in over 30 years, meaning low miles and a lack of hard use.


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## Lovacott (20 Dec 2020)

YukonBoy said:


> Buying goretex jackets every day. Absolute nonsense. I’m still using the cycle kit I bought in 2003.


I prefer to take my chances and get soaked with rain rather than sweat.

I've only worn my Halfords rain jacket twice and I've regretted it both times. My skin was literally pissing out sweat. Much better to wear a tee shirt which you can wring out once you get to work.


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## Lovacott (20 Dec 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> I think it's patience more than anything, I've bought several high quality but silly cheap machines, each time watching a lot of overpriced examples and molested junk and just sat on my hands, waiting for the right one.



I was looking at second hand back in March and April but everybody was taking the piss with the prices they were asking and they were selling like hot cakes.

One bloke near me had a three year old Boardman hybrid listed at £250 over the price of a brand new model (which wasn't available due to lockdown). It sold in hours.

When the tips are fully open again, I will do a bit of shopping. Our local tip gets quite a few abandoned nearly new Halfords cheapies. People come down here, buy a boogie board and an Apollo MTB for £150 all in and then leave them lying around on the campsite when they go back.


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## Lovacott (20 Dec 2020)

Archie_tect said:


> You should have had an arrangement with someone to share the winnings... basic error! 😊


It was a very well kept secret so I didn't even know that the bet was on.


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## rivers (20 Dec 2020)

Lovacott said:


> I was hoping that Boris would carry through with his promise of de-criminalising non licence paying but it hasn't happened yet. If it did happen, it would be the end of the BBC.
> 
> That said, there is no way that the BBC can prove in a court that you were watching terrestrial telly if you chose to simply deny it.


We don't watch the BBC. No freeview, sky box, etc in our house. Just amazon prime and netflix. There is plenty to watch for free, and rentals on prime are generally pretty cheap as well (we usually rent a movie or two a month). There's also a few other free apps that came on our new tv that have loads of older shows and films as well for us to peruse at our leisure.


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## Archie_tect (20 Dec 2020)

I suppose with all the charges that Sky, Amazon, Netflix, other subscription and pay-per-view channels charge, the BBC licence is one step too far for some people... they do a monthly direct debit too.


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## Lovacott (20 Dec 2020)

Archie_tect said:


> I suppose with all the charges that Sky, Amazon, Netflix, other subscription and pay-per-view channels charge, the BBC licence is one step too far for some people... they do a monthly direct debit too.


I'm one of those co-operative type people who does what he's told to avoid breaking the law.

It pisses me off paying the licence fee, but at the moment, I'm legally obliged to do so.

Fact is, the BBC is world renowned and sells a lot of stuff overseas so it should be turning a decent net profit and we should all be getting free access.

.


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## Archie_tect (20 Dec 2020)

But if they ditch the licence fee they still have to charge for their services... and at least then they'll get the money instead of a grant from the Government who trouser the fees.

ah, sorry... where were we on the commuting to work thread!!


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## Ming the Merciless (20 Dec 2020)

Lovacott said:


> I prefer to take my chances and get soaked with rain rather than sweat.
> 
> I've only worn my Halfords rain jacket twice and I've regretted it both times. My skin was literally pissing out sweat. Much better to wear a tee shirt which you can wring out once you get to work.



So you haven’t been buying a goretex jacket every day. Why make that post then? Puzzling.


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## Lovacott (20 Dec 2020)

YukonBoy said:


> So you haven’t been buying a goretex jacket every day. Why make that post then? Puzzling.


Irony mainly.

It's a thing which you can only get to grips with if you are British and you've been to twelve football matches.


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## Ming the Merciless (20 Dec 2020)

Lovacott said:


> Irony mainly.
> 
> It's a thing which you can only get to grips with if you are British and you've been to twelve football matches.



More like nonsense. Fact is cycling to work saves you money. You are new to it, so won’t realise that benefit just yet.


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## swee'pea99 (20 Dec 2020)

Lovacott said:


> Irony mainly.
> 
> It's a thing which you can only get to grips with if you are British and you've been to twelve football matches.


Have you ever noticed how people who are keen to explain what irony means almost always then show they haven't a clue what it means. There ought to be a word for that. Um...


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## SkipdiverJohn (20 Dec 2020)

YukonBoy said:


> More like nonsense. Fact is cycling to work saves you money. You are new to it, so won’t realise that benefit just yet.



Not a fact at all. Like any activity compared against any other activity, the relative expense depends how you go about doing it. Some people buy expensive bikes and keep changing them so are paying multiple lots of VAT and losing multiple lots of depreciation. They also buy, expensive cycling kit, are too lazy to repair punctured tubes, farm out all their maintenance to the LBS - and quite possibly might spend more per year on average than I spend running a car.


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## screenman (20 Dec 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Not a fact at all. Like any activity compared against any other activity, the relative expense depends how you go about doing it. Some people buy expensive bikes and keep changing them so are paying multiple lots of VAT and losing multiple lots of depreciation. They also buy, expensive cycling kit, are too lazy to repair punctured tubes, farm out all their maintenance to the LBS - and quite possibly might spend more per year on average than I spend running a car.



Those people like myself often do not ride to work, vat and tax goes to provide services we all use.


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## SkipdiverJohn (20 Dec 2020)

screenman said:


> Those people like myself often do not ride to work, vat and tax goes to provide services we all use.



That's fine if you don't mind giving the government a load of your money so they can waste it on all sorts of shite that doesn't benefit the ordinary citizen, but it doesn't alter the fact that cycling ceases to be a cost-effective means of travel if you don't keep tight control of what you spend on doing it.
The marginal cost of me driving ten miles rather than riding them is pretty low if I've already laid out fixed expenses like road tax, insurance etc. It's basically just the fuel and a tiny bit of wear & tear. Very few people run a bike as their only means of travel, the majority will still have a car and may even be paying out for season tickets or bus passes. 
When I started work I wasn't old enough to drive, so it was ride 8 miles a day or 2 buses a day and a walk at each end. If the bus turned up the minute I got to the stop, the bus and the walk was marginally quicker than the ride. If I had to wait 10 or 15 minutes for the bus, the ride was quicker and more consistent. Once I was old enough to drive, I used to ride if it was nice out and drive if the weather was crap. Petrol was about £1.80 a gallon, and the fuel cost was about £2 a week, roughly the same as a weekly bus pass.


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## screenman (20 Dec 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> That's fine if you don't mind giving the government a load of your money so they can waste it on all sorts of shite that doesn't benefit the ordinary citizen, but it doesn't alter the fact that cycling ceases to be a cost-effective means of travel if you don't keep tight control of what you spend on doing it.
> The marginal cost of me driving ten miles rather than riding them is pretty low if I've already laid out fixed expenses like road tax, insurance etc. It's basically just the fuel and a tiny bit of wear & tear. Very few people run a bike as their only means of travel, the majority will still have a car and may even be paying out for season tickets or bus passes.
> When I started work I wasn't old enough to drive, so it was ride 8 miles a day or 2 buses a day and a walk at each end. If the bus turned up the minute I got to the stop, the bus and the walk was marginally quicker than the ride. If I had to wait 10 or 15 minutes for the bus, the ride was quicker and more consistent. Once I was old enough to drive, I used to ride if it was nice out and drive if the weather was crap. Petrol was about £1.80 a gallon, and the fuel cost was about £2 a week, roughly the same as a weekly bus pass.




I do not mind paying tax, I just wish everyone else paid their share as it would make the country a better place. When I started work like you it was 2 buses or walk, seeing as I was racing at the time the ride was non brainer and would always be faster than the buses, mind you 30 years later I was still racing but no longer riding to work. I would certainly do it now if my business suited it as I cannot understand people wanting to do a short journey in a tin box.


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## Lovacott (20 Dec 2020)

swee'pea99 said:


> Have you ever noticed how people who are keen to explain what irony means almost always then show they haven't a clue what it means. There ought to be a word for that. Um...


You've lost me there...


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## Lovacott (20 Dec 2020)

YukonBoy said:


> More like nonsense. Fact is cycling to work saves you money. You are new to it, so won’t realise that benefit just yet.


If you say so...


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## screenman (20 Dec 2020)

I can put my hand up and say in 54+ years of cycling I have never done it to save money.


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## Ming the Merciless (20 Dec 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Not a fact at all. Like any activity compared against any other activity, the relative expense depends how you go about doing it. Some people buy expensive bikes and keep changing them so are paying multiple lots of VAT and losing multiple lots of depreciation. They also buy, expensive cycling kit, are too lazy to repair punctured tubes, farm out all their maintenance to the LBS - and quite possibly might spend more per year on average than I spend running a car.



But those aren’t the costs of commuting by bike. They are the costs of chopping and changing bikes every year. A different cost benefit model.


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## Ming the Merciless (20 Dec 2020)

Lovacott said:


> If you say so...



Well I do have somewhat more decades experience of the matter than yourself. I have a somewhat longer term view of actual costs than yourself.


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## Archie_tect (20 Dec 2020)

YukonBoy said:


> Well I do have somewhat more decades experience of the matter than yourself. But don’t let experience get in the way of your view 😂😆😂


YB give the lad a break- he's kept up commuting to work despite all the challenges and ribbing - he deserves a pat on the back.


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## Ming the Merciless (20 Dec 2020)

Archie_tect said:


> YB give the lad a break- he's kept up commuting to work despite all the challenges and ribbing - he deserves a pat on the back.



We do need to challenge this notion that commuting by cycle has similar costs to doing the same by car. It may not be the primary reason, but it is much cheaper.


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## Archie_tect (20 Dec 2020)

YukonBoy said:


> We do need to challenge this notion that commuting by cycle has similar costs to doing the same by car. It may not be the primary reason, but it is much cheaper.


Agreed!


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## Lovacott (20 Dec 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> That's fine if you don't mind giving the government a load of your money so they can waste it on all sorts of shite that doesn't benefit the ordinary citizen, but it doesn't alter the fact that cycling ceases to be a cost-effective means of travel if you don't keep tight control of what you spend on doing it.



What makes the water a bit muddy is the fact that most cyclists also run a car and the costs of car ownership are very tangible (Tax,Insurance, MOT, Servicing, Parking Permits, Petrol).

Bike costs are a bit more fuzzy. Is the cost of a cycling helmet or a can of 3-1 part of the price of cycling? 

Is having to pay £3 a day to leave my car at home when I cycle to work, a cost of car ownership or a cost of cycle commuting?

Like the majority on here, I don't consider cost as a major driver of my cycle commuting habit.


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## WesternBikingGirl (20 Dec 2020)

When I was riding to work it was under 10 minutes by car or bike. Kind of a no brainer which to use.


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## Drago (20 Dec 2020)

On average a cyclist will live almost 7 years longer than a sedentary person, which is a very, very worthwhile saving.


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## Ming the Merciless (20 Dec 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Not a fact at all. Like any activity compared against any other activity, the relative expense depends how you go about doing it. Some people buy expensive bikes and keep changing them so are paying multiple lots of VAT and losing multiple lots of depreciation. They also buy, expensive cycling kit, are too lazy to repair punctured tubes, farm out all their maintenance to the LBS - and quite possibly might spend more per year on average than I spend running a car.



That is sod all to do with cycle commute costs. Some spend more than necessary and have more than one bike. That’s not a cycle commute cost.


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## Lovacott (20 Dec 2020)

Drago said:


> On average a cyclist will live almost 7 years longer than a sedentary person, which is a very, very worthwhile saving.


Sedentary people are not really alive.


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## DCLane (20 Dec 2020)

Lovacott said:


> Bike costs are a bit more fuzzy. Is the cost of a cycling helmet or a can of 3-1 part of the price of cycling?
> 
> Is having to pay £3 a day to leave my car at home when I cycle to work, a cost of car ownership or a cost of cycle commuting?



In my case the helmet / maintenance tools / etc are all part of the cost. They're on a big spreadsheet with bikes (plus value/type) along with the current value of everything I have (bikes/wheels and parts/tools/clothes). That's totalled and my number of commutes is taken off that.

What muddies things a bit is everything bike-related I sell is taken off the total spent as I've paid out and earnt back: most of my bikes are sold on for a profit which has reduced the cost. I've also got all my rides on there, weekly mileage totals and weight from 2011-2020, although I've not updated that since April as my mileage has dropped so I let Strava tackle it.

Currently having sold some bib longs today but bought a cassette and a replacement LH Ultegra crank:

Spent since April 2011: £12,070
Commutes to work 1169 at approx. £10 a day: £11,690 saved

Balance: - £380 (which if I'd commuted to work since March would be a big positive)

However I _still_ own the 12 bikes (dotted about in various places/lent out)/ wheels and parts/tools/clothes and my estimate is they're currently worth about £8620. So ... I'm over £8000 up in 9 years.

One note: three of the bikes were on Cycle2Work so I saved on the tax but lost out on pension contributions. I didn't factor that in, just the purchase price.

If you're paying to leave the car at home it's a car cost.


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## Archie_tect (20 Dec 2020)

Anything that stops you having to spend money, saves you money.


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## Lovacott (20 Dec 2020)

To be honest, the last thing I considered when deciding to cycle to work was financial cost.

I decided to cycle to work to save my circulatory system from clogging up and to give me something to focus on as my kids went to uni and we in turn descended into old age.

Probably the best decision I have ever made.


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## WesternBikingGirl (20 Dec 2020)

Money never entered into my mind when biking. But I do leave the car in the garage for a week at a time mostly. Feels good to almost never have to get gas for it.


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## DCLane (20 Dec 2020)

Lovacott said:


> To be honest, the last thing I considered when deciding to cycle to work was financial cost.
> 
> I decided to cycle to work to save my circulatory system from clogging up and to give me something to focus on as my kids went to uni and we in turn descended into old age.
> 
> Probably the best decision I have ever made.



Ditto: if I hadn't got fit back in 2011 and lost weight I'd be dead. The doctor gave me a year to live due to health complications and was surprised I did something about it _and_ stayed the journey: he'd warned me about 8 years earlier but I only behaved well for about 9 months before lapsing back.

What your colleagues won't realise in this weather is you end up with a toned physique. _That_ got some comments when I moved to commuting in lycra shorts. Or maybe it was just the shorts


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## Lovacott (20 Dec 2020)

DCLane said:


> What your colleagues won't realise in this weather is you end up with a toned physique.



To a lot of the apprentices, I was just an old fart in the office a year ago. Now, they ask me if I rode into work and how it went.

It's a really nice way to start the day.


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## Tom B (20 Dec 2020)

I have a bike bank account. I pay £25 a month into it and anything bike related comes out of it. From this I buy anything bike related I need. It currently has a balance of about £200 and I occasionally raid it for non bike stuff. It topped up a turbo for the car in 2018 and put a dent in the council tax last April. This account also benefits from any wheeling dealing I do.

This covers my commuter / knocking about bike and my MTB.

It is important to remember some of the things I buy I would be buying anyway irrespective of commuting or not.

If I'm driving to work I'd be filling the car with £60 or so a month. I now fill the car 3-4 monthly.

When the car insurance / not runs out I don't bother redoing it until I need it. So I've saved 6 months on insurance in the last few years.

As other have mentioned it's not just a monetary gain. For me there is a time saving when commuting at rush hour. The alone time is somewhat better on the bike and lets you get your head straight and there are of course the well documented feel good factor. If I have a week where I'm not commuting I really feel the difference in my wellbeing.


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## nonowt (20 Dec 2020)

I think your colleagues reaction is just typical of a group when someone breaks with the expected norms. On some subconscious level your cycling is a threat to the norm for them. They want you to fail - not out of meanness but just to restore the norm of driving. He's had he's daft moment but no he's back in 

Being a vegetarian in the 1980s was similar. Some people would endlessly go on about the smell of bacon and how it would lure you back soon enough and how much they loved steak, etc. After a while I realised this wasn't about my choice but about their choice 

On the money saving thing it reminds me of a guy who I was at college with who was notoriously tight. He was also really hard work as he never had much to say. After college I used to slightly reluctantly meet him for lunch when we were both working in central London. After a while he mentioned he'd switched to a bus pass from a travelcard to save money. A few months on he'd started walking the 9 miles a day to save even more money (even though his job wasn't badly paid). The very last time I saw him, desperately trying to fill another long silence I teased him gently about the clunky walking boots he had on with his suit. His reply: oh, its costing me fortune in shoes walking to work. As much as that amused me I never spent another lunchtime on him. 

Before the covid I used to half joke that the cycle to and from work were the best part of my day (even in bad weather). After a month or so of working from home I was feeling really flat. So now I do fake commute: leave the house around 8, ride a 5 mile loop, get home and start work. It's often the best part of my day.


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## JhnBssll (20 Dec 2020)

I don't think cycling to work really saves me anything, in fact I'm regularly significantly worse off for it. If my wife notices my car is in its space after I've gone in the morning she often takes it to work herself and her commute is 3 times further than mine  I know I've run out of diesel when she starts taking hers again


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## JhnBssll (20 Dec 2020)

nonowt said:


> Before the covid I used to half joke that the cycle to and from work were the best part of my day (even in bad weather). After a month or so of working from home I was feeling really flat. So now I do fake commute: leave the house around 8, ride a 5 mile loop, get home and start work. It's often the best part of my day.



I really need to start doing something like that, it's a great idea. My problem is I've started working earlier and am finishing later as my workload has ramped up. When the first lockdown started I put a couple of 90 minute lunchtime slots in to my calendar each week so I could do a quick loop on the bike but I've not even managed that for several months. I know you can always make time, I just need to work out how to redress the balance


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## DCLane (20 Dec 2020)

+1 for me as well.

Not commuting by bike has really started to get to me.


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## I like Skol (21 Dec 2020)

JhnBssll said:


> I really need to start doing something like that, it's a great idea. My problem is I've started working earlier and later as my workload has ramped up. When the first lockdown started I put a couple of 90 minute lunchtime slots in to my calendar each week so I could do a quick loop on the bike but I've not even managed that for several months. I know you can always make time, I just need to work out how to redress the balance


Off topic, but this is one of the BIG drawbacks of working at/from home. For every work shy slacker that plays the system and does as little as they can possibly get away with while being remotely supervised, there are an equal amount of people like yourself and my wife who are going into overdrive to try and make up for the failings of their lazy colleagues so that any poor performance of the team doesn't reflect badly on them.
In the short term this will be great for the employers as all this talk of not going back to an office based culture will mean they can make huge cuts in infrastructure costs (office space ain't cheap) and will quickly weed out the poor performers leaving them with a lower headcount/wagebill but still getting the same output from the remaining staff.
Unfortunately the inability of the remaining staff to control their work hours effectively will soon lead to many being burnt out. There is no definable start, finish or middle to the work day when working at home meaning the temptation to work ever longer days without breaks is ever present.


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## WesternBikingGirl (21 Dec 2020)

I've heard that from a lot of serious bikers. I notice it myself if I have a few days off.


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## JhnBssll (21 Dec 2020)

I like Skol said:


> Off topic, but this is one of the BIG drawbacks of working at/from home. For every work shy slacker that plays the system and does as little as they can possibly get away with while being remotely supervised, there are an equal amount of people like yourself and my wife who are going into overdrive to try and make up for the failings of their lazy colleagues so that any poor performance of the team doesn't reflect badly on them.
> In the short term this will be great for the employers as all this talk of not going back to an office based culture will mean they can make huge cuts in infrastructure costs (office space ain't cheap) and will quickly weed out the poor performers leaving them with a lower headcount/wagebill but still getting the same output from the remaining staff.
> Unfortunately the inability of the remaining staff to control their work hours effectively will soon lead to many being burnt out. There is no definable start, finish or middle to the work day when working at home meaning the temptation to work ever longer days without breaks is ever present.



You're absolutely right. I struggle to find a good balance when working from home, and often feel guilty when I do finish on time or take the lunch break I'm entitled to, even when I'm generally hitting the 40hrs I'm paid to do by Thursday morning 

I've just spent an hour doing some pre-work work and didn't even bat an eyelid, because a few hours of work on a sunday evening is somehow normal now  I don't mind weekend and evenings when workload is high, but I need to rethink my strategy in the medium term as you're right, I'll end up doing myself a mischief. I suspect many others are in this boat, a potential ticking timebomb for sure.


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## I like Skol (21 Dec 2020)

JhnBssll said:


> You're absolutely right. I struggle to find a good balance when working from home, and often feel guilty when I do finish on time or take the lunch break I'm entitled to, even when I'm generally hitting the 40hrs I'm paid to do by Thursday morning


The worst thing is the lunch break. In the good old days everyone would down tools and head to the canteen or nearby cafes unless something urgent was due in which case the person/people responsible would work through.
Now everyone is at home they are booking zoom/team meetings every lunchtime 'because everyone is available aren't they?' There is no visibility that people should be stopped for lunch and that time has just been swallowed up into the working day. I have repeatedly suggested to my wife that she should make a stand against this and book out her diary with set regular lunch times. Apparently 'it doesn't work like that' which is weird because it did when they were office based! I say they will soon get the message when she doesn't join some of these 'critical' meetings, she is one of the key players. I also say, the longer she leaves it the more ingrained this unhealthy culture will become.


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## icowden (21 Dec 2020)

Totally agree. I do the odd lunchtime meeting but I try to make sure that mostly I have some sort of lunch break and move from my "office" in the back of the house to the kitchen or living room for at least 30 minutes to have my lunch.


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## icowden (21 Dec 2020)

For me, I started commuting by bike to work as I was driving a mile and a half to the train station then paying £5 to park the car for the day. The car was used for almost nothing else. So we sold it and I got a bike. So I saved diesel, £25 a week on parking, road tax, insurance etc.

Of course, now I'm saving a lot more as I don't need to buy train tickets due to my commute being restricted from my bedroom to my office!


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## vickster (21 Dec 2020)

icowden said:


> For me, I started commuting by bike to work as I was driving a mile and a half to the train station then paying £5 to park the car for the day. The car was used for almost nothing else. So we sold it and I got a bike. So I saved diesel, £25 a week on parking, road tax, insurance etc.
> 
> Of course, now I'm saving a lot more as I don't need to buy train tickets due to my commute being restricted from my bedroom to my office!


Why didn’t you just walk the mile and a half?


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## Ming the Merciless (21 Dec 2020)

vickster said:


> Why didn’t you just walk the mile and a half?



Indeed. Driving 1.5 miles to park the car at a railway station makes the mind boggle.


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## vickster (21 Dec 2020)

Especially in the SE where it can take 20 mins to drive that distance!


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## Johnsco (21 Dec 2020)

I paid £5 for my Carlton in 1966.
The car cost £10,000 5 years ago.
It's not worth much these days - especially as it's a diesel
My cars wears out 4 tyres (not two) .... approx £150 each.
It wears out timing chains and thousands of other mechanical components.
It wears out brake pads, brake discs, brake hydraulic components .... all at enormous expense.
Try replacing a cracked alloy wheel - They cost a fortune.
For these and many reasons - There's no comparison.
The bike's a winner.


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## icowden (21 Dec 2020)

vickster said:


> Why didn’t you just walk the mile and a half?


Walking would take me about 40 minutes - it's closer to 2 miles. When you have a car sitting in the drive that can get you there in 5 minutes you don't think about walking. 40 minutes is a distance to walk that doesn't readily appeal to me, so the best thing I ever did was sell the car and get a folding bike.
It got me fitter and healthier. No need to use the tube once I got to Waterloo, just back on the bike to make my merry way.

These days, if I were still commuting I suspect that having got used(ish) to 40-50 mile rides on the weekend, I might well not bother with the train either!!


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## Tom B (21 Dec 2020)

I like Skol said:


> Off topic, but this is one of the BIG drawbacks of working at/from home. For every work shy slacker that plays the system and does as little as they can possibly get away with while being remotely supervised...



My cousin works making software or something.
He is working from home and hates it. I popped around to see my aunt a few weeks ago (while working) / to use her big. And he was on his mid afternoon 10 min break because he got chatting for 15mins he got a phone call.

Apparently the remote software they have looks for keyboard / mouse activity and reports back if there is none for X much time.



icowden said:


> Walking would take me about 40 minutes - it's closer to 2 miles. When you have a car sitting in the drive that can get you there in 5 minutes you don't think about walking.



Really? The local shops to me are about a mile and a half away... I don't think about using the car unless getting something bulky and then it's begrudgingly and usually after putting it off a few times. For me that distance is walk or cycle.

If nothing else it's really bad for the car.

I've been known to walk back with a couple of growbags or bags of sand and cement on my shoulders.

Having spent 10 years after passing my test doing 25k a year I'm soooo over driving.


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## John482 (21 Dec 2020)

Well, assuming you don't get hurt on your bike you're probably saving a ton of money in future medical bills due to much improved health. Definitely a very solid investment in the future.


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## SkipdiverJohn (21 Dec 2020)

Tom B said:


> He is working from home and hates it. I popped around to see my aunt a few weeks ago (while working) / to use her big. And he was on his mid afternoon 10 min break because he got chatting for 15mins he got a phone call.
> 
> Apparently the remote software they have looks for keyboard / mouse activity and reports back if there is none for X much time.



I'd have told them to f*** off then sat there for another half an hour in front of the computer without doing a stroke of work just to make a point. Diplomacy isn't my strongest point when it comes to dealing with people who get my back up! 



Tom B said:


> If nothing else it's really bad for the car.
> 
> I've been known to walk back with a couple of growbags or bags of sand and cement on my shoulders.



Yep, repeated short journeys slaughters your engine longevity and you get shite fuel consumption as a bonus. Loads of cold start wear and your engine full of black sludge because it doesn't get hot enough to boil off the condensation that forms on the metal surfaces. I avoid short journeys like the plague, and my engine oil is still clear on the dipstick when I come to change it yearly. What comes out is obviously still black, but it's thin not sludgy.
The old boy who used to have an allotment next to my mums used to carry his fertiliser bags hung over the crossbar of his ancient 3-speed Roadster. His onion harvest got taken home using the same method. Even if the sacks were too bulky to permit pedalling the bike, he still reckoned pushing it was easier than hoofing the bags around on his shoulder. Of course you need a proper bike to do this, with a horizontal top tube.....


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## RichardB (21 Dec 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> a proper bike ... with a horizontal top tube.....



Preach, bruthuh!


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## SkipdiverJohn (21 Dec 2020)

And the old boy was a methodist preacher too, as it happens.


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## Ming the Merciless (21 Dec 2020)

Hallelujah, praise be to the Lord


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## hatler (21 Dec 2020)

Public transport commute = £11/day.
Driving not an option.
I've paid for my bike and all associated maintenance and parts many many times over.


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## simongt (22 Dec 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> It went out of date in 2016.


'Best before' & 'Use by' dates are a massive con on a naive public. Back 'in't day when I were lad' there wasn't any such thing. If it looked okay, smelt okay and tasted okay, you ate it - ! Many's the occasion we've eaten 'out of date' food to no ill effects and we're still alive to tell the tale - !  The amount of perfectly consumable food that is dumped by either the retailer or the customer because it's 'out of date' is frightening. 
Have I hit on a sensitive point here I wonder - ?


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## byegad (22 Dec 2020)

screenman said:


> There are far more costs to running a car than just the fuel alone, the average in the UK being around 40 per mile.


When we had two cars, Lady byegad's was swapped for a new one every 3 yrs. Mine simply got older, so we used hers for holidays and longer runs and mine around the doors. I was cycling 4-5000 miles a year, my car did less than 3000. But to simply tax, insure, MOT and service my car was £800/annum without it turning a wheel. That would buy a basic commuter bike with change to spare. In the end I gave up on my car and sold it.


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## Drago (22 Dec 2020)

Not that I have need to commute any more, but heres howmit would work out for me...

Road tax - 30 sheets a month.

Servicing - 400 odd quid a year, so about 33 a month.

Fuel - just to my old workplace and back, no other journeys, would be about £100 a month.

Sundry motoring expenses averaged out over a year that wouldnt be covered by servicinf, such as tyres, brakes, unforseen running repairs etc - 50 notes.

Thats £213 a month. Averaging out the cost of bikes, tyres, frivolous accessories and toys, I still wouldn't habe got to 50 quid a month while i was cycling, so the savings would have been significant for me. Add in that our local town may soon be getting a workplace parking tax, then the savings would be even greater.

Add in the value of the time saved not being stuck in traffic, caluculated at off duty rates of Tx1.5, and it becomes a massive win for the bike, in my case at least.


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## screenman (22 Dec 2020)

Drago said:


> Not that I have need to commute any more, but heres howmit would work out for me...
> 
> Road tax - 30 sheets a month.
> 
> ...



What would the Volvo be going down by, I am guessing my Octavia by about £50 a week, if I had paid retail for it then more like £65.


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## Drago (22 Dec 2020)

Indeedy. If id paid for the Volvo instead of being gifted it id have had to factor in depreciation and rapahments.

Imforgotmto add insurance, which would be a further 20 sheets a months.


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## mjr (23 Dec 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> The marginal cost of me driving ten miles rather than riding them is pretty low if I've already laid out fixed expenses like road tax, insurance etc. It's basically just the fuel and a tiny bit of wear & tear.


Insurance varies with mileage, unless you pick a really crap deal. It is not a fixed cost. In the strictest sense, nor is vehicle tax because it varies with emissions. It is a motoring lobby lie that those are fixed costs and I am surprised to read it from @SkipdiverJohn who I thought was a clearer thinker than that!

And road tax doesn't exist!


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## Twilkes (23 Dec 2020)

5 years of train fares would have cost me around £5k.

Spent £1500 on bikes in that time, and probably £200 on tyres, £75 on tubes and patches, maybe £400 on clothes and kit/chains etc, £150 on lights, probably a few other bits and pieces too.

So £2-2.5k up. But I would likely have owned a lot of that stuff anyway, for weekend riding, so it's more like saving £4.5k.

And in my experience anyone who skives at home is equally as good at skiving in the office.


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## Lovacott (23 Dec 2020)

MichaelW2 said:


> You need a fair bit of skill or luck to find, select and acquire a fine old bike at cut price.



A bloke at work was telling me today how his daughter has just bought a few months old Specialized Allez for half the current listed price of £799.

The original buyer bought it for his wife to encourage her to come out on local rides with him. She wanted to get used to the bike first so used it indoors on a fitness rig for about a week before throwing in the towel and sticking it on Ebay. My workmates daughter was the highest bidder at £200.

My workmates daughter, chuffed to bits with her buying skills, has since ridden the bike once (to the end of the road and back) before putting it in the shed next to the lawnmower.

Do I now swoop in and offer £200?


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## Lovacott (23 Dec 2020)

mjr said:


> And road tax doesn't exist!



+1

Government spending is never paid for with taxes. It is paid for with "money" raised from bond issues and the bonds themselves are to be settled by some future generation. 

Taxation is simply a demonstration by the government that they are making some kind of effort to recover some of that "debt" so that they can continue to borrow in the future.


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## Twilkes (23 Dec 2020)

Lovacott said:


> +1
> 
> Government spending is never paid for with taxes. It is paid for with "money" raised from bond issues and the bonds themselves are to be settled by some future generation.
> 
> Taxation is simply a demonstration by the government that they are making some kind of effort to recover some of that "debt" so that they can continue to borrow in the future.



The stats I found showed that government spending was around £800bn while tax receipts were around £750bn, so over 93% funded by taxes (2017/18). Not really just 'some kind of effort'.

The post you were replying to was pointing out there is no road tax, just vehicle excise duty which goes into the general pot, not ring-fenced to pay for roads.


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## Lovacott (23 Dec 2020)

Twilkes said:


> The stats I found showed that government spending was around £800bn while tax receipts were around £750bn, so over 93% funded by taxes (2017/18). Not really just 'some kind of effort'.


You only mention structural deficit and forget to mention all of the government spending which went before it which hasn't been covered and never could be covered.


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## SkipdiverJohn (24 Dec 2020)

Splitting hairs about the legal definition of road tax is a diversionary irrelevance. You tax a vehicle, you pay X amount a year. It's a fixed cost. If the car doesn't do one mile all year and is just parked on the street, you are still paying. Insurance is exactly the same. When you do a proposal form it will normally ask you how many miles you are likely to drive a year. The resulting premium will not be reduced if it turns out at the end of the year you did less miles than you estimated you might do. The premium was based on the info that you gave at the start of the year. The cost is fixed. My MOT test is the same price regardless of how many miles I do between tests too. 
Most people are paying more in fixed motoring costs than they are in variable ones, hence the fact that it doesn't make much difference in the scheme of things to do a few extra miles. The regressive nature of VED actually encourages more car use, since you might as well "get your money's worth" out of it once you have paid for a year up front. A pure fuel duty system would reward restraint in car use, VED does the opposite. The problem then is if you scrap all VED, then the electric car drivers - who still cause the same amount of congestion and pollute remotely, get a free ride at the expense of everyone else.


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## Archie_tect (24 Dec 2020)

Skip's right... pay per mile with a variable rate according to the bhp of the vehicle, with an additional higher inner city congestion rate per mile as a further disincentive to unnecessary journeys.


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## Tom B (24 Dec 2020)

Archie_tect said:


> Skip's right... pay per mile with a variable rate according to the bhp of the vehicle, with an additional higher inner city congestion rate per mile as a further disincentive to unnecessary journeys.



Agreed, though not sure about the bhp aspect, I suppose you could use per kWh for electric cars. 
Or a multiplier based on the weight of the vehicle or more problematically the new price of a vehicle. The weight would probably be fairer to give an incentive for manufacturers to build lighter less damaging vehicles.

The way in which people approach cars and car "ownership" is changing. People are becoming more used to leasing or at least never owning cars and paying a monthly fee as driven by the god awful value (imho) pcps. This will persist into electric vehicles and or electric vehicle battery packs. I suspect that these will start to come with price per mile components, already many deals have a price per mile over a certain amount.

Black box insurance has been around for a while now and now you have insurance you can buy for an annual fee + a price per mile. Intended for low milage users.

I think of we built the rules and regs around motor vehicles now we'd do thing differently. MoTs every 10k miles or 12 months, insurance per mile with cards/disks, "road tax" replaced by a per mile basis. 

Motoring is a political hot potato, Brits are very attached to the motorcar and have a weird relationship with cars personifying them (I've washed and valeted my car to treat her somo she'llpass the MOT - mine gets that after the MOT donors not wasted if it gets scrapped. I have been known to present a car with a known fault to MOT to make sure there are no other faults and I'm not wasting money fixing the one I know about). 

The very vocal influencial baby boomer generation and their immediate generational neighbours. They've been brought up with the car as a God given right, as an extension big their personality and taken for granted. I include my father in this who drives the 200yrds to my aunt's and half mile to the local shops despite being retired and by his own admission bored. He looks at a bus or a train with scorn despite having a brief flirtation his bus pass. No amount of explaining the train is faster, cheaper and gets you to city centre will alter his preoccupation and desire to fill the car with fuel, drive and pay (and moan about doing so) to park. He's an intelligent man, he must understand but he insists on taking the tin box.

Interestingly my mother doesn't drive she does walk to the shops, and to work but increasingly dad insists on driving her everywhere. She pulls her face at the prospect of public transport. We was staying in Penrith prior to lockdown 1 and I invited her up for a few days. This would have meant her getting on a train at Bolton Station and Getting off the same train an hour later in Penrith. 
She point blank refused and wanted me to drive down to come and get her then drive back. She's tight as cramp but doesn't see the costs of driving. It's just a cost she thinks must be swallowed.

I doubt we'll ever get this generation out of their cars or away from their obsession or short minded relationship with the car. It seems these are the same people kicking up about the cyclelanes the council has proposed or installed locally.

I do see some change going on with younger generations being less reliant on the car and more willing to accept alternatives.


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## Drago (24 Dec 2020)

Tax cars on mileage, period. 

A single lorry does, quite literally, the damage of many thousands of cars, so there is little justification for doing it by a cars mass.

Similarly, BHP isn't a good indicator - an increase in volumetric efficiency does not automatically mean a rise in emissions.

Keep the taxes on road fuel for personal use, but add a mileage charge. Also apply taxes to the electricity used to charge electric vehicles, and add a mileage charge.

We simply need less unnecessary car use, and less cars, and anything that achieves that evenly across the board, is worthwhile. Aside from political problem in the eye of a generally uneducated public, electric cars solve little, and simply encouraging folk out of one type of car and into another doesn't help us a great deal. 

The bone-idle lazy won't do it of their own volition, so they must be forced to do it instead. The major hindrance is that the body responsible for achieving all of this is the government, and they rely on votes from those very same bone-idle lazy car drivers. Until someone grows a pair that conflict will never be resolved. Meanwhile, the planet and our society hurtle headlong to an oblivion that is going to be a lot more painful than the short term pain of simply getting on a bike today.

forgive me, I know i'm largely preaching to the choir on that one.


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## simongt (24 Dec 2020)

Agree with that Drago. The habitual car user lobby are percieved as being too influential by whatever government is in power to upset. Said lobby has for years been screaming that they are already taxed to the hilt, being charged unfairly from every angle, etc., etc., so any political party that is likely to get into power isn't going to get on the wrong side of that lot without being voted out at the next election - !
For my two penn'orth, scrap VED in its present form and put it on fuel prices. That way, no-one can avoid paying and it's paid in proportion to the number of miles covered by any given vehicle.


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## Archie_tect (24 Dec 2020)

Drago said:


> Tax cars on mileage, period.
> 
> A single lorry does, quite literally, the damage of many thousands of cars, so there is little justification for doing it by a cars mass.
> 
> ...


You have to have a multiplier on a cost per mile rate to encourage people to use more efficient vehicles... like the energy rating on white goods... an A rating has a lower multiplier than a G rating... if people only do short journeys when their internal combustion engine is cold it chucks out far more pollutants per mile.


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## Lovacott (24 Dec 2020)

Drago said:


> Tax cars on mileage, period.


Car ownership has become progressively more expensive with each passing decade. For most 18 year olds today, a car is an expense too far. 

Most cars spend the majority of their time doing nothing anyway.

The logical future path is that fewer and fewer will own cars, choosing to use services like Uber instead.

Uber will develop reliable, self driving cars pushing costs down and making the use of the service more cost effective.

Electric bikes will make cycle commuting more attractive and, if the government puts in some decent cycling infrastructure, more will adopt cycling as a form of daily transport.


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## Tom B (24 Dec 2020)

Archie_tect said:


> You have to have a multiplier on a cost per mile rate to encourage people to use more efficient vehicles... like the energy rating on white goods... an A rating has a lower multiplier than a G rating... if people only do short journeys when their internal combustion engine is cold it chucks out far more pollutants per mile.



We could have a cold start multiplier too!


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## mustang1 (24 Dec 2020)

If I commute 100 miles per week on the bike, I have to clean the bike every weekend. I also have to take extra clothes with me, eat extra food, take showers, service the bike every 6 months for about £100 plus a major service of £200 annually. New tyres every 2 years. *Edit: actually, with my weight, that's new tyres for my road bike every year.*

If I commute 100 miles per week on the car, the insurance I have to pay for anyway because it's the family car, I think about £400 per year. Servicing is every two years which costs £200.New tyres every 5 years or so.

The car is far cheaper and less time consuming both in terms of commute and maintenance. It's quicker to drive, dont need to shower, far more comfortable, dont need to change clothes thus convenience. So why do I ride the bike? IDK, some muppet told me it'd be cheaper (it's not), I'd be happier (debatable), I'd feel so fresh at work (uhm not really) and all that baloney (plenty). No sir, I just ride the bike coz I enjoy it.


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## glasgowcyclist (24 Dec 2020)

mustang1 said:


> If I commute 100 miles per week on the bike, I have to clean the bike every weekend. I also have to take extra clothes with me, eat extra food, take showers, service the bike every 6 months for about £100 plus a major service of £200 annually. New tyres every 2 years.
> 
> If I commute 100 miles per week on the car, the insurance I have to pay for anyway because it's the family car, I think about £400 per year. Servicing is every two years which costs £200.New tyres every 5 years or so.
> 
> The car is far cheaper and less time consuming both in terms of commute and maintenance. It's quicker to drive, dont need to shower, far more comfortable, dont need to change clothes thus convenience. So why do I ride the bike? IDK, some muppet told me it'd be cheaper (it's not), I'd be happier (debatable), I'd feel so fresh at work (uhm not really) and all that baloney (plenty). No sir, I just ride the bike coz I enjoy it.



I find it hard to believe annual servicing for a bicycle can be £400!

The costs of 100 mile/week commute between a car and a bicycle will always favour the bike.


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## Gravity Aided (24 Dec 2020)

You know, I had but one car and Mrs. GA and I have jobs in different directions from home, so she would drop me and the bicycle at work in the morning and I would ride the bike to where the car was at the end of the day, or ride on home. We saved enough during the depression of the twenty teens to buy a very fine second-hand auto for Mrs. GA. And pay our mortgage and bills on time. This was done by a lot of things, but commuting by bicycle definitely helped.


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## keithmac (24 Dec 2020)

This years commuting has cost me £8 (set of brake pads front and back).

Not bad going!.


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## Gravity Aided (25 Dec 2020)

simongt said:


> Agree with that Drago. The habitual car user lobby are percieved as being too influential by whatever government is in power to upset. Said lobby has for years been screaming that they are already taxed to the hilt, being charged unfairly from every angle, etc., etc., so any political party that is likely to get into power isn't going to get on the wrong side of that lot without being voted out at the next election - !
> For my two penn'orth, scrap VED in its present form and put it on fuel prices. That way, no-one can avoid paying and it's paid in proportion to the number of miles covered by any given vehicle.


That is how it is in my state, a goodly portion of my gasoline cost is made up of taxes. Round about 40 cents per gallon,but my gasoline cost is about 2.25 USD. So the motor fuel tax is more than a fifth and less than a sixth the price of a gallon of gas. Could stand a raise to fund things properly. If I had to pay what you guys pay for gasoline, I would ride a bicycle much more. But in The States, we do not have the passenger rail network Britain does. Population is less dense, and after WWII, when the railroads were worn out from the war effort, some less informed people (yes, I'm looking at you, Genl Eisenhower) thought as a reward, the railroads should be taxed to support competitive means of transport like trucks and air. Add to that the removal of postal business to trucks, and passenger service run at government whim, and it is no wonder we have few alternatives.


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## keithmac (25 Dec 2020)

Thank your lucky stars you're not in the UK..


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## mjr (25 Dec 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> . Insurance is exactly the same. When you do a proposal form it will normally ask you how many miles you are likely to drive a year. The resulting premium will not be reduced if it turns out at the end of the year you did less miles than you estimated you might do. The premium was based on the info that you gave at the start of the year. The cost is fixed.


The cost is not fixed. It varies with how many miles you say you'll do and while you might not get a refund if you drive less, you will be penalised if you consistently underestimate. So cycling more and driving less will make next year's car insurance a bit cheaper, even without installing a tracker.


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## Zanelad (26 Dec 2020)

It's the saving money theory that I used on Mrs K when I bought an e-bike to commute on. I save half a gollon of petrol each day. As the bike cost £2,500 I reckon 1,000 trips to work and it will have paid for itself. Trouble is that I will most probably be retired before I reach 1,000 commutes. There's other costs but I'll still incur them as I'll not get rid of the car amd the bike requires tyres, chains oils etc.. The wellbeing I feel by using the bike instead of the car cannot be valued. Anyway, you've got to spend your money on something. Better on bikes than booze or fags.


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## mustang1 (28 Dec 2020)

glasgowcyclist said:


> I find it hard to believe annual servicing for a bicycle can be £400!
> 
> The costs of 100 mile/week commute between a car and a bicycle will always favour the bike.



I think I mentioned £300 annually (£100 for 6 month play £200 for 12 months). for me, it also includes new tyres, the cost of a few inner tubes during flats, brake pads. 

But anyway, give me an example of servicing cost for an all weather bike ridden for a year, at a bike shop from your perspective.

By car, let's call it £150 over two years, so that's £75 annually. No new tyres required.


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## I like Skol (28 Dec 2020)

mustang1 said:


> No new tyres required.


??????
Do your car tyres not wear out?


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## Oldhippy (28 Dec 2020)

I have ridden my bike all year all weather for years. Oil the chain regularly, the odd cable for a couple of quid and a tyre every two years or so. Not even a penny a day.


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## SkipdiverJohn (28 Dec 2020)

Tom B said:


> The way in which people approach cars and car "ownership" is changing. People are becoming more used to leasing or at least never owning cars and paying a monthly fee as driven by the god awful value (imho) pcps. This will persist into electric vehicles and or electric vehicle battery packs.



The various finance/lease plans only exist because the secondhand owner driver market is there to mop up all the end of lease handbacks. Without the owner market there would be no residual values worth talking about, and leasing would get much more expensive and/or lease periods would have to be longer and mean lessees would have to stomach driving older cars, not almost new ones.
Unless you are running a car through a business, so can write off the monthly cost as a business expense against tax, I see leasing as something only mugs do. The cost isn't even that transparent since any cosmetic damage and high mileage will reduce residuals so incur excess charges.


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## glasgowcyclist (28 Dec 2020)

mustang1 said:


> I think I mentioned £300 annually (£100 for 6 month play £200 for 12 months). for me, it also includes new tyres, the cost of a few inner tubes during flats, brake pads.
> 
> But anyway, give me an example of servicing cost for an all weather bike ridden for a year, at a bike shop from your perspective.
> 
> By car, let's call it £150 over two years, so that's £75 annually. No new tyres required.



You definitely wrote that you serviced the bike every 6 months plus gave it a major service.



mustang1 said:


> service the bike every 6 months for about £100 plus a major service of £200 annually.



Even £300 in servicing is steep and, I would suggest, atypical.

I tend to do my own but, if pressed for time, my preferred professional for servicing is Willy Bain in Glasgow. He has a small workshop on the south side of the city and is constantly rammed full with bikes. He’s been going about 30 years and is well known. A full service there costs £45 or, if you’ve hammered the bike through a tough winter, he will do a complete strip down to component parts, regrease, replace bearings, AND do everything else covered by the full service for £85.

A basic annual service (oil & filter change only) for my car costs £184.


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## mjr (28 Dec 2020)

glasgowcyclist said:


> [...] He’s been going about 30 years and is well known. A full service there costs £45 or, if you’ve hammered the bike through a tough winter, he will do a complete strip down to component parts, regrease, replace bearings, AND do everything else covered by the full service for £85.


I'd assume that web page is not current because it shows a proTX logo, which became SagePay about a decade ago IIRC, which itself became opayo more recently.


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## Nebulous (29 Dec 2020)

I normally have a very short commute, but am now working from home. My office is city centre, so parking is £12 a day. We’ve toyed with two vehicles over the years, but with me cycling we can get by on one. My work cx bike cost £700 in 2014. It has had one new set of wheels since, as the standard wheels were rubbish and snapped several spokes. I wear work clothes and an Altura jacket which came in a big bag of second-hand cycling clothes I bought for £40. I change the chain once a year, cables have only been changed twice and I needed a replacement set of mudguards as the rivets holding the plastic to the stays gave way. My biggest expenditure in the last 6.5 years for commuting has been lights. All that means that cycle commuting is considerably cheaper than driving. 

But, and there is always a but, as well as a sub 2 mile commute, cycling became a big part of the rest of my life. A £2k steel audax bike, about £700 to fit it with new wheels and dynamo lights, expensive clothing, weekends away to take part in an event, preparation for and entry to PBP have cost a lot of money. To cap it all I really dislike my bikes being on the roof of the car while away with the caravan, so bought a van a year ago to keep them inside. Thankfully I don’t have a spreadsheet.


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## Lovacott (29 Dec 2020)

glasgowcyclist said:


> A basic annual service (oil & filter change only) for my car costs £184.



I'm a bit of an Excel freak and I keep track of things like car costs and so on.

On an average, the cost of buying a car accounts for £1,000 a year to start with.

Servicing including tyre replacements, oil changes, pads, discs, cam belt, battery etc etc averages out at £400 per year.

Then there's tax and insurance gobbling up another £450 a year.

Before you even put fuel in and drive your car, it's costing you nearly £40 per week just to own the thing.

During the ten years I cycled in London and didn't own a car at all, I would have saved at least £20,000.


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## cyberknight (29 Dec 2020)

Oldhippy said:


> I have ridden my bike all year all weather for years. Oil the chain regularly, the odd cable for a couple of quid and a tyre every two years or so. Not even a penny a day.


thats good going i get through a couple of pairs of tyres a year, crappy roas i ride eat them


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## Lovacott (29 Dec 2020)

cyberknight said:


> thats good going i get through a couple of pairs of tyres a year, crappy roas i ride eat them


My MTB tyres last me around 1500 miles on the road so if I stay on the current trajectory of 6,000 miles per year, that's four sets of tyres.

My tyres are only £12 a piece but that still equates to $96 per year.

I think anyone on here who claims that their car or bike only costs them pennies to run every year, needs to take a serious look at their accounting methods.


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## SkipdiverJohn (29 Dec 2020)

cyberknight said:


> thats good going i get through a couple of pairs of tyres a year, crappy roas i ride eat them



You must be running the wrong sort of tyres then because bomb proof touring/commuting tyres should be good for at least 5,000 miles, and they just laugh at the small stone and glass fragments that will cut up flimsy soft compound road tyres.


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## Lovacott (29 Dec 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> You must be running the wrong sort of tyres then because bomb proof touring/commuting tyres should be good for at least 5,000 miles, and they just laugh at the small stone and glass fragments that will cut up flimsy soft compound road tyres.


I get 1500 miles per tyre on my current commute but that is a predominantly country lane route with the usual gravel surfaces and potholes etc.

I replace my tyres when the "nobbles" in the centre are level with the surface of the tyre wall (by this stage, I'm also losing grip on corners).

A couple of sets of tyres per year is not out of the way for someone commuting bewteen fifty and one hundred miles per week.


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## Moodyman (29 Dec 2020)

If you ride with tougher rubber, you will get more miles. MTB tyres are softer compound as they're not designed for asphalt use. Touring or training tyres are good for several thousand miles. A Marathon Plus tyre I once commuted on did 7500 miles when the bike was nicked and it still had about 50% tread left.


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## SkipdiverJohn (29 Dec 2020)

Lovacott said:


> I think anyone on here who claims that their car or bike only costs them pennies to run every year, needs to take a serious look at their accounting methods.



I can honestly say I have not bought a single bike tyre or inner tube in the last 12 months. I did recently acquire a rideable Raleigh spares bike for £20, which had 2 almost new Schwalbes and inner tubes, so about £40 of tyres for £20 with a free bike thrown in. I also found two serviceable 700c hybrid back wheels in the scrap skip at work, one with a nearly new Schwalbe and the other with a Kenda, both good tubes. Those wheels & tyres are now in my spares pile for when I need one. 
I've replaced two 26" knobbly MTB tyres in the last couple of months as they were worn low and puncturing. The "new" tyres both came off skip salvages, so free. Literally zero cycling running cost spend this year, although I did buy a £25 workstand from Lidl several months ago. 



Lovacott said:


> I get 1500 miles per tyre on my current commute but that is a predominantly country lane route with the usual gravel surfaces and potholes etc.
> I replace my tyres when the "nobbles" in the centre are level with the surface of the tyre wall (by this stage, I'm also losing grip on corners).
> A couple of sets of tyres per year is not out of the way for someone commuting bewteen fifty and one hundred miles per week.



You are riding rural roads and need traction, and it's true knobbly MTB tyres wear out faster. I would have thought you would get more than 1,500 miles if you ran Schwalbe Land Cruisers though. I have a pair that are proving very hard wearing, although I got them used for £4 and I don't know the exact mileage on them.
@cyberknight is riding a Boardman road bike on road tyres. so he has the option of running long-life touring types that will not get shredded on crappy roads. I ride on really crap roads with all sorts of debris and potholes and my road tyres don't get destroyed.


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## Moodyman (29 Dec 2020)

What this thread shows is there are many ways to skin a cat.

Do your own maintenance, buy gear when on offer and run cheaper drivetrains (8, 9 or single sp) and it's perfectly possible to run a commuter on pennies.

Took me 3.5 years for the money saved by not paying for a yearly rail pass, to draw even with my cycling outlay. Since I still own the bikes and the majority of kit/tools I'm positively in the black.


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## cyberknight (29 Dec 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> I can honestly say I have not bought a single bike tyre or inner tube in the last 12 months. I did recently acquire a rideable Raleigh spares bike for £20, which had 2 almost new Schwalbes and inner tubes, so about £40 of tyres for £20 with a free bike thrown in. I also found two serviceable 700c hybrid back wheels in the scrap skip at work, one with a nearly new Schwalbe and the other with a Kenda, both good tubes. Those wheels & tyres are now in my spares pile for when I need one.
> I've replaced two 26" knobbly MTB tyres in the last couple of months as they were worn low and puncturing. The "new" tyres both came off skip salvages, so free. Literally zero cycling running cost spend this year, although I did buy a £25 workstand from Lidl several months ago.
> 
> 
> ...


commuter is my carrera still on the stock tyres atm running 28s these days


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## Lovacott (29 Dec 2020)

Moodyman said:


> Took me 3.5 years for the money saved by not paying for a yearly rail pass, to draw even with my cycling outlay. Since I still own the bikes and the majority of kit/tools I'm positively in the black.


I've spent a small fortune on my bike over the last nine months but that would not be reflective of a typical year.

To start with, it's a Halfords Apollo hardtail MTB which clearly wasn't built to last. Once I started to use the bike daily back in March, it started to fall apart. The bottom bracket bearings failed and a pedal split all within a few weeks. Since then, I've replaced/upgraded pretty much every moving part.

Then there are the other costs such as buying lights, rack, tools and cycle clothing.

I wouldn't expect to have to repeat that amount of spending over the following year.


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## gzoom (3 Jan 2021)

Currently through my first winter commuting on the bike, loving it so far. For the last 15 years+ I've only ridden a road bike, so enjoying the freedom to explore muddy tracks on the hybrid over the last few weeks....







Ofcourse, mud + rain + salt on the roads + pot holes = rusty chains, and knackered rear hubs. I've done 1300 commuting miles in 10 months, but the bike will be in need of a rear hub service/likely new chain soon. Components are cheap Deore level so I'm budgeting under £100 at the Halfords. So 7p per mile in maintenance costs is still far cheaper than using any car, though surprisingly my EV car is close at 5p per mile for fule+tyres but not counting insurance. But driving the car is simply no wear near as fun, plus I would not be able to eat like a pig without worrying about been too overweight for the frame of the bike .


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## SkipdiverJohn (3 Jan 2021)

gzoom said:


> Ofcourse, mud + rain + salt on the roads + pot holes = rusty chains, and knackered rear hubs. I've done 1300 commuting miles in 10 months, but the bike will be in need of a rear hub service/likely new chain soon. Components are cheap Deore level so I'm budgeting under £100 at the Halfords. So 7p per mile in maintenance costs is still far cheaper than using any car, though surprisingly my EV car is close at 5p per mile for fule+tyres but not counting insurance



To put in in perspective, your bike maintenance is still more per mile than my car maintenance, which usually involves nothing more than a DIY oil change, a quick look at the brakes, and topping up all the fluids as needed. Bike maintenance 1-2 p/mile max. 
I tend to use my MTB's rather than hybrids when the tracks get as soft and muddy as the ones you've been riding on. I find the 2" wide tyres float better, maintain better traction, and the bikes don't get into such a filthy state as riding through mud on road-oriented tyres then slipping and sliding and throwing mud up everywhere due to wheel spinning.. I use the same style of mudguard as you on MTB's.


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## simongt (3 Jan 2021)

Archie_tect said:


> if people only do short journeys when their internal combustion engine is cold it chucks out far more pollutants per mile.


and of course, as I've said in a post b4, the number of drivers of diesel engined vehicles ( yes, it only appears to be diesel engines ) who leave their engines running for up to half an hour at a time whilst the vehicle is stationary; for what reason - ?


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## SkipdiverJohn (3 Jan 2021)

People leave diesels running to warm them up and defrost their windows. (would you rather they left their windows frosty and took out more cyclists they couldn't see instead?) The downside of having a high thermal efficiency is slow warm up. If you're only driving say five miles in a diesel on a freezing day, the damn thing is barely warmed by the time you get to your destination.


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## glasgowcyclist (3 Jan 2021)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> People leave diesels running to warm them up and defrost their windows.



Have they never heard of scrapers or de-icer? And a car will warm up quicker when it’s driven.

People need to stop using their car like an overcoat.


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## SkipdiverJohn (3 Jan 2021)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Have they never heard of scrapers or de-icer? And a car will warm up quicker when it’s driven.
> 
> People need to stop using their car like an overcoat.



If you actually drive motor vehicles (and I seriously doubt some people on here ever have driven by some of the comments they make) then you will be well aware that a scraped windscreen will often refreeze as soon as the vehicle is driven unless it's electrically heated or has warm air blowing on it.
Cars cost a fair bit of money to own and run, so people expect a bit of comfort out of them in return for their outlay. If they fancied freezing their nuts off and getting rained on they would ride a bike instead wouldn't they?
In the eyes of the majority of the public, bikes are just for poor people who can't afford cars - much like buses. To use a bike is seen as a failure, not a positive.


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## glasgowcyclist (3 Jan 2021)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> If you actually drive motor vehicles (and I seriously doubt some people on here ever have driven by some of the comments they make) then you will be well aware that a scraped windscreen will often refreeze as soon as the vehicle is driven unless it's electrically heated or has warm air blowing on it.



I don’t have that problem, but then I use an appropriate concentration of de-icer in my windscreen washer bottle and use a £2.99 windscreen cover from Lidl on frosty nights.


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## Archie_tect (3 Jan 2021)

You can take a driver out of their comfy polluting car and get them on a bike but you can't make someone change their driver mansplaining mindset.


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## Johnsco (3 Jan 2021)

Archie_tect said:


> You can take a driver out of their comfy polluting car and get them on a bike but you can't make someone change their driver mansplaining mindset.


Not at 73 years old - in the middle of winter - you can't.
I cycle - That's why I'm here
BUT
On a day like this it would not end well for me.


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## 12boy (3 Jan 2021)

For the last 30 or so years of work there were lockers and a shower. For most of that I rode a 'Dale mtn bike and bought others later but just cause I wanted them. Maintenance was cheap because I did it myself and I live in high desert where rain isn't much of a problem. Sometimes I would drive for the job and often left my car in covered parking for weeks at a time. 
Besides the greatly reduced vehicle cost I benefited by:
Having an hour or so ride at the beginning and end of work kept me fit and allowed me to eat piggishly without gaining weight.
Reduced my stress a lot, both by riding and hours spent working on bikes, although those were giveaways. 
Never paid a penny for gym membership, although I do have some weights and a bench I've used for 45 years. 
Hardly ever sick and recovery from injuries has been a lot faster.
Replacing drinking and dope with a bike addiction has saved some money and my liver.
As a truly crap driver, riding instead of driving has maybe saved the lives of people I may have otherwise had accidents with.
All in all, bicycles have been good to me. 
..


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## Ming the Merciless (3 Jan 2021)

Archie_tect said:


> You can take a driver out of their comfy polluting car and get them on a bike but you can't make someone change their driver mansplaining mindset.



Carsplaining 😀


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## gzoom (3 Jan 2021)

12boy said:


> Having an hour or so ride at the beginning and end of work kept me fit and allowed me to eat piggishly without gaining weight.
> Reduced my stress a lot, both by riding and hours spent working on bikes, although those were giveaways.
> Never paid a penny for gym membership



Its -3 with wind chill for my commute tomorrow and I have access to car that lets me warm up the cabin to what temperature I want whilst I'm still in bed!! So you can imagine the temptation, and for a few days last month when it was pouring down with rain I gave in  

But for the reasons you stated above and because its 2020 the car wouldn't be touched this week!


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## classic33 (4 Jan 2021)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> If you actually drive motor vehicles (and I seriously doubt some people on here ever have driven by some of the comments they make) then you will be well aware that a scraped windscreen will often refreeze as soon as the vehicle is driven unless it's electrically heated or has warm air blowing on it.
> Cars cost a fair bit of money to own and run, so people expect a bit of comfort out of them in return for their outlay. If they fancied freezing their nuts off and getting rained on they would ride a bike instead wouldn't they?
> In the eyes of the majority of the public, bikes are just for poor people who can't afford cars - much like buses. To use a bike is seen as a failure, not a positive.


I don't own a car.
I don't drive. Nor can I.
If the cost of ownership of a car is excessive/expensive, maybe consider a different form of transport. Maybe even a car that costs less than £1000, outright. Less outlay, therefore less should be expected from them.
If you put laziness before safety, get off the road. Tank driver slits on windscreens are a danger to other road users, whatever your opinion of your driving skills.
If cycling is seen as a sign of failure, you have to question who has actually failed.
I was seen as "mad" for doing 250 miles a weekend, to & from work. I got there when those with cars were unable to. After the first winter, the opinion on cycling to work changed for most, but not all I worked with.
I can't remember freezing my nuts off* either. Like any activity, you dress according to the conditions.
When cycling, you're generating heat, as opposed to losing it sat in a car.
I cycled to work in temperatures well below zero, with no I'll effects.


*Nothing to do with losing them.


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## 12boy (4 Jan 2021)

Coldest I've ridden to work was -24C. The ice was cold enough to not be slick. Only 3 miles each way but no problems.


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## SkipdiverJohn (4 Jan 2021)

classic33 said:


> If you put laziness before safety, get off the road. Tank driver slits on windscreens are a danger to other road users, whatever your opinion of your driving skills.
> If cycling is seen as a sign of failure, you have to question who has actually failed.



Agreed, driving with out having clear windows is extremely dangerous. That's why the responsible drivers leave their engines running to warm up the heater and keep the windows clear when they drive off!. 
Believe me, to the vast majority of the population owning even a modest £3k car is viewed as a sign of greater achievement in life than owning a £3k carbon bike. Anyone who spends more on a bike than they could get the most ratty old beater of a car for, is considered to be downright weird.
The groups with the highest car ownership round my way are mostly Asians, and many of those came from poor backgrounds - or their parents did. As soon as they achieve success in running a business, or just get a half decent job working for someone else, they get themselves an expensive car. The more bling looking it is and the more performance it offers, the better they like it. They don't go out and buy fancy bikes!
Only a small minority of the public do any cycling out of choice, and the number that exclusively cycle out of choice and don't even have a car, is even smaller still. Any adults, especially males, who can't drive in their twenties are generally regarded as somewhat odd!


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## classic33 (4 Jan 2021)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Agreed, driving with out having clear windows is extremely dangerous. That's why the responsible drivers leave their engines running to warm up the heater and keep the windows clear when they drive off!.
> Believe me, to the vast majority of the population owning even a modest £3k car is viewed as a sign of greater achievement in life than owning a £3k carbon bike. Anyone who spends more on a bike than they could get the most ratty old beater of a car for, is considered to be downright weird.
> The groups with the highest car ownership round my way are mostly Asians, and many of those came from poor backgrounds - or their parents did. As soon as they achieve success in running a business, or just get a half decent job working for someone else, they get themselves an expensive car. The more bling looking it is and the more performance it offers, the better they like it. They don't go out and buy fancy bikes!
> Only a small minority of the public do any cycling out of choice, and the number that exclusively cycle out of choice and don't even have a car, is even smaller still. Any adults, especially males, who can't drive in their twenties are generally regarded as somewhat odd!


I'll remain _"downright weird"_ and _"somewhat odd"_ any day, if car ownership is the measure being used.

The owner of a local specialist heavy haulage company is a cyclist. Still prefers to cycle to & from work, rather than drive. But at times he has to drive.

To turnabout something you said, I doubt you even a own a bike, much less ride one. Basing this upon your replies that imply that bikes cost nothing to buy, nothing to keep running, and can easily be replaced if damaged or stolen. They're all typical driver response's to cycling as is the one above(Which neatly avoids nearly every point raised).

It matters not to me, if the person starting out cycling starts with one costing less than £100 or goes all in, having decided they'll have one bike only so spend that much more on it. That's their choice to make, not mine.

And a responsible driver wouldn't leave a car engine running when they are not near the vehicle. It's also illegal.
_"Stationary idling is an offence under section 42 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, which means leaving the car running with the heater on the windscreen is off-limits.

The Act enforces rule 123 of the Highway Code which states: "You must not leave a vehicle engine running unnecessarily while that vehicle is stationary on a public road."_


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## icowden (4 Jan 2021)

classic33 said:


> And a responsible driver wouldn't leave a car engine running when they are not near the vehicle. It's also illegal.
> _"Stationary idling is an offence under section 42 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, which means leaving the car running with the heater on the windscreen is off-limits.
> 
> The Act enforces rule 123 of the Highway Code which states: "You must not leave a vehicle engine running unnecessarily while that vehicle is stationary on a public road."_



Whilst I agree with you entirely, the Act does not appear to cover driveways, which is the main place a vehicle will be left idling to defrost the windscreen.


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## mjr (4 Jan 2021)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Agreed, driving with out having clear windows is extremely dangerous. That's why the responsible drivers leave their engines running to warm up the heater and keep the windows clear when they drive off!.


Run the engines to warm up the heater? Didn't we stop doing that in the 1990s once car batteries improved and we're now using 60Ah ones instead of 30? Or is the electric element in your heater broken? If so, maybe you should do a bit more maintenance on your car!


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## Johnsco (4 Jan 2021)

Car batteries come in many different capacities ... Mine is a 95Ah battery.
BUT
Car heaters work by circulating the liquid engine coolant thru the heater matrix and blowing air across it to heat the inside of the car.
At least ...... That's how every car I've ever had works .... and every car I've ever worked on - from an 850cc mini to a 5.7 litre chevrolet.
The warming up of the coolant is helped by the vehicle thermostat, which shuts off the main car radiator until working temperature is reached.


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## I like Skol (4 Jan 2021)

Johnsco said:


> Car batteries come in many different capacities ... Mine is a 95Ah battery.
> BUT
> Car heaters work by circulating the liquid engine coolant thru the heater matrix and blowing air across it to heat the inside of the car.
> At least ...... That's how every car I've ever had works .... and every car I've ever worked on - from an 850cc mini to a 5.7 litre chevrolet.
> The warming up of the coolant is helped by the vehicle thermostat, which shuts off the main car radiator until working temperature is reached.


Exactly. Some modern cars do have an auxiliary heater to speed up the process of providing warm air to the interior (like my wife's German saloon car) while others have excellent electric heated windscreens, but this is still a minority which mjr seems to have miscalculated?


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## MichaelW2 (4 Jan 2021)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> The groups with the highest car ownership round my way are mostly Asians, and many of those came from poor backgrounds - or their parents did. As soon as they achieve success in running a business, or just get a half decent job working for someone else, they get themselves an expensive car. The more bling looking it is and the more performance it offers, the better they like it. They don't go out and buy fancy bikes!
> Only a small minority of the public do any cycling out of choice, and the number that exclusively cycle out of choice and don't even have a car, is even smaller still. Any adults, especially males, who can't drive in their twenties are generally regarded as somewhat odd!



The paradox of cycling is that it is fairly cheap and accessible compared to all of the alternatives but is seen as too expensive and too cheap. It is seen as low status but only done by white middle class males. Bike infrastructure is objected to by petrol head conservatives but also seen as a warning sign of gentrification by poor ethnic minorities in inner cities. Cycling is regarded as slow and inefficient when it doubles up commute and excecise times and urban journeys are generaly quicker door to door by bike. Even the shower is classed as time wasted when taken by a cyclist but not by a driver at home or even in the gym.

People are not rational and don't know what is good for them. We need a cultural revolution. I would re-educate the lot in nice residential facilities at government expense. They will learn to recite the Little Red Book of Cycling during self criticism sessions.


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## simongt (5 Jan 2021)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> I found a tin of chilli con carne at the back of my cupboard the other week. It went out of date in 2016.


Hah, that's nothing - ! I have a can of WW2 issue dried eggs from the USA which I 'inherited' when my mum died last year. So, do I open the can and see what the contents are like or sell it on EBay - ? And no, I have no idea why she kept it all this time - !


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## mjr (5 Jan 2021)

I like Skol said:


> Exactly. Some modern cars do have an auxiliary heater to speed up the process of providing warm air to the interior (like my wife's German saloon car) while others have excellent electric heated windscreens, but this is still a minority which mjr seems to have miscalculated?


Maybe. It seems like VW cars (definitely Golf and Tiguan) have an electric heater that activates when it is cold outside, the engine is cold and the heater control is on maximum. VW own Seat and the heater parts I replaced were VW-marked, so this may explain why my 1990s Seat had it.

I'm surprised that pre-ignition demisting still isn't a required thing and I didn't find any estimate how many cars no longer force drivers to choose between fuming their neighbours or running them over by driving blind. What kind of barbarians are motorist regulators?


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## Anonymous1502 (5 Jan 2021)

Lovacott said:


> The other day, one of the lads at work said "you must be saving a fortune on petrol now you're riding your bike" and I nodded and agreed.
> 
> But then a few seconds later, I piped up with "but"....
> 
> ...


If you don't have a car at all it saves a lot more money as car insurance is expensive+ leasing costs if you are leasing the car.


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## simongt (6 Jan 2021)

I like Skol said:


> Some modern cars do have an auxiliary heater


'Modern' - ? Back in the early seventies, the VW 411 had an auxilary petrol powered cabin heater that worked independently so you could start it up a while before you set out and then get in to a toasty warm car without having to start the engine.


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## tyred (6 Jan 2021)

I know someone who puts a 2KW fan heater in the car for 10 or 15 minutes before leaving for work.


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## Cycling_Samurai (2 Mar 2021)

[QUOTE="Lovacott, post: 6237521, member: ]

I'm not some kind of tight arse you know.

(I just wanted to have one).
[/QUOTE]
I see what you did there.


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## Ste T. (6 Mar 2021)

Saves me £130 a month. 
£100 in bus fares and as its 40 minutes each way daily I've been able to save £30 a month Gym fees.


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## Ming the Merciless (6 Mar 2021)

Lovacott said:


> The other day, one of the lads at work said "you must be saving a fortune on petrol now you're riding your bike" and I nodded and agreed.
> 
> But then a few seconds later, I piped up with "but"....
> 
> ...



So your contention is that you’ll spend way more than £600 every year for the purposes of cycle commuting? Plus also you spend less than £600 per year on fuel for your car?


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## Lovacott (6 Mar 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> So your contention is that you’ll spend way more than £600 every year for the purposes of cycle commuting? Plus also you spend less than £600 per year on fuel for your car?


If I wanted to save money, I wouldn't have taken up busting a gut over ten miles of shitty cross country roads at god knows what time in the morning.

I would have simply cancelled my Netfilx or NowTV sports subscriptions and driven to work in my nice warm car.

Instead, I jump on my bike at 5.45am and hurtle along pitch black country lanes because it makes me feel good both physically and mentally. There's a cat in one of the villages I cycle though who sits and waits for me. That kind of thing doesn't happen when you are in a car.

Fact is though, everyone at work thinks I'm cycle commuting to save a few quid which couldn't be further from the truth. Hence this thread.


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## Ming the Merciless (6 Mar 2021)

Lovacott said:


> If I wanted to save money, I wouldn't have taken up busting a gut over ten miles of shitty cross country roads at god knows what time in the morning.
> 
> I would have simply cancelled my Netfilx or NowTV sports subscriptions and driven to work in my nice warm car.
> 
> ...



Can you answer the question rather than babble about Netflix 😂


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## Lovacott (6 Mar 2021)

Cycling_Samurai said:


> I see what you did there.




Well spotted. Shame 99% of the others didn't spot it.


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## Johnsco (6 Mar 2021)

In my late 20s (a very long time ago) I used to use the bike for the daily commute from home in North Leeds to work in South Leeds.
Easy cycling .... No big hills .... No problems.
There was no real cost saving.
I didn't sell the car .... The distance was only 4 miles.
I've never felt so fit or mentally-alive in my life.


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## Hicky (15 Mar 2021)

I save in a number of ways, diesel and time. I save the diesel as I'm not dragging a large Volvo in and out of Mcr at slowish speeds and time as I'm both quicker by car(if I factor in walking from the car park to work) and I don't have to take away time from my family to do exercise which if I didn't I'd be a fat duffer and less happy mentally having always been fit.


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## WesternBikingGirl (29 Mar 2021)

Going to fire up the car for the first time since the 4 March today to get a load of groceries. Been biking on all my errands since then. Feels great. Saving money? Sure, but that's not the point.


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## Lovacott (1 Apr 2021)

WesternBikingGirl said:


> Going to fire up the car for the first time since the 4 March today to get a load of groceries. Been biking on all my errands since then. Feels great. Saving money? Sure, but that's not the point.


I had to use my own car for some work stuff last week and I was reimbursed at the standard HMRC rate of 45 pence per mile. This rate is supposed to cover all costs like wear and tear, fuel and depreciation.

So you could say that every 20 miles cycled is £9.00 saved (if you take everything into account).


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