# Ortlieb panniers or ...?



## Tim330 (18 Dec 2017)

After my last week tour along the Danube with my budget panniers in the rain, I promised myself a set of the rubbery yellow things all the Germans who passed me seemed to be using. With the hope of keeping my kit dry I’m now in a position to spend some money.

I’m planning next years trips and thinking I want the space for a two week minimum tour, using guest houses, B&B etc so if I go longer I’ll have access to washing facilities and don’t need to pack a tent etc.

I’m looking at the Ortleib back rollers but what size would do? Don’t want to get too small. Would the 40l be sufficient for a European tour, not off the beaten track?

Anything else worth considering? The Overboard looked OK but only in a smaller size.


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## Heltor Chasca (18 Dec 2017)

Perfect for your needs. The smaller, front panniers are ok for a long weekend.

I find my pack list for a long weekend or a 2 week tour aren’t a lot different, but I camp.

EDIT: My rear Ortlieb Classics are probably about 15 years old. In great shape. Investment.


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## slowmotion (18 Dec 2017)

I can't sing the praises of Back Roller Classics too highly. They are tough as old boots and really are waterproof. Well worth every penny.


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## Spiderweb (18 Dec 2017)

‘Buy cheap buy twice’ invest in Ortlieb bags.


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## Thorn Sherpa (18 Dec 2017)

I can vouch for ortlieb top notch quality


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## MichaelW2 (18 Dec 2017)

The white Ortliebs look better if you want to stay classy. Also easier to find things inside.


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## Crankarm (18 Dec 2017)

Tim330 said:


> After my last week tour along the Danube with my budget panniers in the rain, I promised myself a set of the rubbery yellow things all the Germans who passed me seemed to be using. With the hope of keeping my kit dry I’m now in a position to spend some money.
> 
> I’m planning next years trips and thinking I want the space for a two week minimum tour, using guest houses, B&B etc so if I go longer I’ll have access to washing facilities and don’t need to pack a tent etc.
> 
> ...



I have a new and unused brand new pair of Vaude Aqua Plus rear panniers, the ones with the extra side pocket which is really useful, which are surplus to requirements as they were a gift earlier in the year and I already have a pair. They are better than Ortliebs as they have a hard back meaning they do not flex and are more rugged, plus the closing straps and fastening hooks are easier to get on with than Ortliebs which I have as well. They are every bit as good in fact better than Ortlieb. They are totally waterproof and just like Ortlieb panniers RTW cyclists take them around the world with no problems. Make me an offer.
Info at https://www.rosebikes.co.uk/article/vaude-aqua-back-plus-rear-panniers/aid:510206
https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/?o=1mr&page_id=303541&v=1pf


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## Tim330 (18 Dec 2017)

Message on its way, thanks,


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## gaijintendo (19 Dec 2017)

Crankarm said:


> I have a new and unused brand new pair of Vaude Aqua Plus rear panniers, the ones with the extra side pocket which is really useful, which are surplus to requirements as they were a gift earlier in the year and I already have a pair. They are better than Ortliebs as they have a hard back meaning they do not flex and are more rugged, plus the closing straps and fastening hooks are easier to get on with than Ortliebs which I have as well. They are every bit as good in fact better than Ortlieb. They are totally waterproof and just like Ortlieb panniers RTW cyclists take them around the world with no problems. Make me an offer.
> Info at https://www.rosebikes.co.uk/article/vaude-aqua-back-plus-rear-panniers/aid:510206
> https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/?o=1mr&page_id=303541&v=1pf


I am also an Ortlieb user, but I was going to say with respect to the "or...?" people seem to like Vaude and Carradice.


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## Blue Hills (19 Dec 2017)

If you do go for Ortleibs Tim (they are good) make sure that you don't end up with oold stock QL2 hooks - the things with the piggin' inserts that keep dropping out. After years of adverse comments (countered by some who insisted on worshipping everything Orrtlieb did) the German maestros finally hit on the obvious answer - make the inserts slide in from the side, rather than slide in/out from the bottom, exactly in line with the forces of removing the panniers from the rack.

And so, lo, the QL2.1 was born.

I bought a new set of hook/handle assemblies for my bikepacker Pluses, which are otherwise excellent. Have had them 15 years and despite some tough use they still look pretty much new.


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## Dave 123 (19 Dec 2017)

Tim330 said:


> After my last week tour along the Danube with my budget panniers in the rain, I promised myself a set of the rubbery yellow things all the Germans who passed me seemed to be using. With the hope of keeping my kit dry I’m now in a position to spend some money.
> 
> I’m planning next years trips and thinking I want the space for a two week minimum tour, using guest houses, B&B etc so if I go longer I’ll have access to washing facilities and don’t need to pack a tent etc.
> 
> ...




We did 2 weeks in France with one 40l Ortlieb each and a bar bag for other stuff on the tandem.


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## Blue Hills (19 Dec 2017)

Dave 123 said:


> We did 2 weeks in France with one 40l Ortlieb each and a bar bag for other stuff on the tandem.


surely one is 20 litres?

Must admit I wish the standard ortliebs were bigger, I could do with at least 50 litres for a pair on the back.


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## MossCommuter (19 Dec 2017)

Crankarm said:


> as they have a hard back



My Ortlieb Back Roller Classic are hard backed.

Advice: put plumbers' tape or similar on the back, wherever the bag comes into contact with the rack, so as to avoid wear.


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## Bodhbh (19 Dec 2017)

Blue Hills said:


> Must admit I wish the standard ortliebs were bigger, I could do with at least 50 litres for a pair on the back.



There are a 70l pair available now, Backroller Pros. I've got a pair, mainly for transporting stuff as I don't drive, rather than touring. I recommended them if you need that much space...tbh I'm starting to prefer them even if I don't need that much. They have compression straps so you can trim the size according to your needs and generous web pockets for anything you need handy. They also seem to hold the weight further down and keep the centre of gravity low.

Regarding Orliebs in generally, yeap their great. However, in contrast to others, I've had a couple of pairs start to split and they need repairing (puncture patch seems to work). They're all getting on for 10yrs old and get used daily on the commute/shopping/etc as well as touring (not so much now) so not bad innings. As other have said also, you can get the hooks etc seperately so are repairable if things break.


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## Tim330 (19 Dec 2017)

I thought 40litres and the small bar bag would be enough. Any more and I pack too much because I have the space.


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## Bodhbh (19 Dec 2017)

Tim330 said:


> I thought 40litres and the small bar bag would be enough. Any more and I pack too much because I have the space.



Yep if you're not camping I think that would be plenty. And I'm sure some would probably make do with small panniers with a bar bag.


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## Blue Hills (19 Dec 2017)

Bodhbh said:


> There are a 70l pair available now, Backroller Pros. I've got a pair, mainly for transporting stuff as I don't drive, rather than touring. I recommended them if you need that much space...tbh I'm starting to prefer them even if I don't need that much. They have compression straps so you can trim the size according to your needs and generous web pockets for anything you need handy. They also seem to hold the weight further down and keep the centre of gravity low.
> 
> .


Yes I know about those - have been considering as my less than discjplined packing means that I struggle a bit at times with Ortlieb's normal 40 litre rear capacity.

How are they to ride with when completely full? Rack and bike feel OK?


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## Bodhbh (19 Dec 2017)

Blue Hills said:


> Yes I know about those - have been considering as my less than discjplined packing means that I struggle a bit at times with Ortlieb's normal 40 litre rear capacity.
> 
> How are they to ride with when completely full? Rack and bike feel OK?



If I'm honest, while I've had more than 40l of luggage in them and things like 20kg bags of coal, I've never come close to actually filling them - so I can't really comment on the effect of handling on that. The extra capacity come both from making them taller and making them deeper (i.e. width when looking at the bike from the back). On the back I don't think it's anything you'd notice - it can be on the front as you're putting weight quite far out from the rotation of the forks, which causes a bit of flop. You can reduce the depth with the compression straps in anycase and I doubt many would put them on the front.


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## Dave 123 (19 Dec 2017)

Blue Hills said:


> surely one is 20 litres?
> 
> Must admit I wish the standard ortliebs were bigger, I could do with at least 50 litres for a pair on the back.




Probably. I may have got that wrong.
I knew what I meant....


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## Crankarm (19 Dec 2017)

MossCommuter said:


> My Ortlieb Back Roller Classic are hard backed.
> 
> Advice: put plumbers' tape or similar on the back, wherever the bag comes into contact with the rack, so as to avoid wear.



Sorry to disappoint you but no they are not, not like the hard plastic moulded back of the Vaude Aquas. Ortlieb panniers can bend and flex. The Vaude Aqua pannier backs are rigid. Period.


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## Heltor Chasca (19 Dec 2017)

Crankarm said:


> Sorry to disappoint you but no they are not, not like the hard plastic moulded back of the Vaude Aquas. Ortlieb panniers can bend and flex. The Vaude Aqua pannier backs are rigid. Period.



I may be misunderstanding your post, but for clarification for the OP: 

Ortlieb Back Roller Classics have a thick, rigid, plastic insert integrated and bolted into the inside of the pannier. Yes you can flex this if you wish, (wouldn’t know why) but it is more than sufficiently rigid for a bike pannier. Not overly heavy either. HTH.


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## Heltor Chasca (19 Dec 2017)

MossCommuter said:


> My Ortlieb Back Roller Classic are hard backed.
> 
> Advice: put plumbers' tape or similar on the back, wherever the bag comes into contact with the rack, so as to avoid wear.



Ortlieb panniers eat any decent rack alive. The best solution I have found is to remove the inserts on the hooks. Then fit air hose (black if that’s the colour of your rack) to the contact points on the rack. Split the hose down one side and cable tie to the rack. It also makes the set up super quiet. The only sound you’ll hear will be the dulcet tones of your Trangia bouncing about.


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## Blue Hills (19 Dec 2017)

Crankarm said:


> Sorry to disappoint you but no they are not, not like the hard plastic moulded back of the Vaude Aquas. Ortlieb panniers can bend and flex. The Vaude Aqua pannier backs are rigid. Period.


I can confitm that they flex and it can be a lot. My Bikepacker Pluses flex a lot and in fact I wondered whether this was why the soddin' things kept detaching themselves on a recent camping trip. Had to resort to a ball bungee between them to at least catch one that tried to fall off into the traffic. Hopefully the new 2.1 hooks I have fitted will sort this but I'm taking no chances - the ball bungee stays.


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## Blue Hills (19 Dec 2017)

Heltor Chasca said:


> Ortlieb panniers eat any decent rack alive. The best solution I have found is to remove the inserts on the hooks. Then fit air hose (black if that’s the colour of your rack) to the contact points on the rack. Split the hose down one side and cable tie to the rack. It also makes the set up super quiet. The only sound you’ll hear will be the dulcet tones of your Trangia bouncing about.


You may have provided this before but do you have a link for the correct hose? Are the standard hooks without inserts 16mm? Is this the outer diameter of hose you need? Any sourcing complications with regard to the inner diameter you need to fit your particular rack.

Am I right in thinking that the inserts for the new QL 2.1 hooks (the inserts that go in from the side) are meant to be specced to reduce/cut this rack wear? I just fitted some QL 2.1 hooks and inserts to my Ortliebs today and the insert material did seem different.


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## Moodyman (19 Dec 2017)

Crankarm said:


> Sorry to disappoint you but no they are not, not like the hard plastic moulded back of the Vaude Aquas. Ortlieb panniers can bend and flex. The Vaude Aqua pannier backs are rigid. Period.



Crankarm is right. The Vaude are as good, if not better, than the Ortlieb. The Vaude hard back is on the outside of the pannier and stops abrasion against the rack.


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## Heltor Chasca (19 Dec 2017)

Blue Hills said:


> You may have provided this before but do you have a link for the correct hose? Are the standard hooks without inserts 16mm? Is this the outer diameter of hose you need? Any sourcing complications with regard to the inner diameter you need to fit your particular rack.
> 
> Am I right in thinking that the inserts for the new QL 2.1 hooks (the inserts that go in from the side) are meant to be specced to reduce/cut this rack wear? I just fitted some QL 2.1 hooks and inserts to my Ortliebs today and the insert material did seem different.



I’ve been using Tubus racks for the last few years which all have 10mm rails and stays. I went onto EBay and bought a few metres of airhose with a 10mm INTERNAL diameter. The hose I bought fitted the inside of the hooks exactly but only if I removed the inserts. My aging rear panniers have the QL1 system and my 3 year old (I think) front panniers have the newer QL 2.1 system. This also wore hot spots into a Surly front rack I have (also 10mm) so I didn’t mess about and swapped them out as soon as I could.

Like you, I have had a bag detach late one night, lost somewhere in a forgotten European town. Not what I needed. And it tore off a buckle on my pannier. Cable ties to the rescue, but Ortlieb sell all the spares you need. I have not had this happen since I started using airhose. You can’t really notice the airhose on the racks when you aren’t using panniers. Good adaptation I think.

EDIT: In very hot weather, the top plastic rail/strut that the top pannier hooks slide along has become soft, resulting in a bowed rail/strut. Easy enough to leave in the sun and straighten up.

@Tim330 : I did meet a young German lady on tour using Brooks panniers. They looked very nice, but I have no idea what the long term reviews or specs are.


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## John Peel (20 Dec 2017)

Made up with my front and rear Ortlieb made for KOGA bags, and my 49 litre Rack-Pack. Not a drop of water in them in nearly 2 weeks of constant rain in the UK. Thrown them around a bit and only one small hole near the bottom from when the bike fell over on some really rough ground, which I repaired with a tube patch.


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## Tim330 (20 Dec 2017)

John Peel said:


> Made up with my front and rear Ortlieb made for KOGA bags, and my 49 litre Rack-Pack. Not a drop of water in them in nearly 2 weeks of constant rain in the UK. Thrown them around a bit and only one small hole near the bottom from when the bike fell over on some really rough ground, which I repaired with a tube patch.
> 
> View attachment 387843



Just seen your post about your RTW trip, sorry you had to break it off, hopefully off again soon?

I may have acquired Crankarms spare Vaude bags now, so looking forward to setting them up and trying them out over the next few months.


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## John Peel (20 Dec 2017)

Tim330 said:


> Just seen your post about your RTW trip, sorry you had to break it off, hopefully off again soon?
> 
> I may have acquired Crankarms spare Vaude bags now, so looking forward to setting them up and trying them out over the next few months.



Yes, it wasn't good, but I return to where I left off in Marseille in the new year and I'm looking forward to getting back out there. All the best on your travels. Steve


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## Blue Hills (20 Dec 2017)

John Peel said:


> Made up with my front and rear Ortlieb made for KOGA bags, and my 49 litre Rack-Pack. Not a drop of water in them in nearly 2 weeks of constant rain in the UK. Thrown them around a bit and only one small hole near the bottom from when the bike fell over on some really rough ground, which I repaired with a tube patch.
> 
> View attachment 387843


Ah that great gift to cyclists, the lych gate. Spent a bit of time sheltering in them. Originally designed for sheltering coffins apparently. Hang on god, you aren't getting me yet , a few more years pedalling.


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## graham bowers (21 Dec 2017)

I've been very pleased with my 40 litre classic backrollers. They were new this summer but have had quite a few wet days, some very wet, and didn't let a drop in.


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## froze (7 Jan 2018)

If you want the best get the Ortliebs, but they are expensive and I've heard from a few tourists that they wear out after about 2 years on the road. As far as I'm concerned, I can't see spending that kind of money for Ortliebs only to have them last only 2 years, so the heck with them I buy cheaper Axiom, I got the Monsoons because they hold 45 liters total. The Axiom's are NOT as water tight as the Ortliebs, but I sprayed my bags with a water repellant (which I'll do twice a season), then I put anything I don't want to get wet in zip lock bags, and so far no problems even in a downpour the inside of the bag didn't get wet, and the Monsoons don't have an optional water proof cover. I paid $129 for mine but the Orts would have cost me twice that. The Axiom seems to be a decently made product too. I haven't had them long enough to see how long they'll last but someone I ran into had his for 2 years and he was still using them but his has a different model from the Monsoons I got, his model is no longer made, so I'm not sure how his experience will reflect on how long mine will last, I don't recall what model he had. Another trick you can do to water proof a water resistant bag (proof and resistant are not the same), is simply take a plastic trash bag with cinch cord and line your pannier then put your stuff in.

I don't have front panniers, haven't needed them yet, they make stuff so light and small nowadays I only need rear panniers. I do have a front handlebar bag, which again I went cheap only because the reviews were high, and they were right it is a good bag, anyway it's the Ibera large model that only cost $43.

I also use a Topeak Aero Wedge large saddle bag which I always carry on the bike touring or not, but after 5 years it has a rub area on the seam that opened the seam up just a bit, so I'm going to try a cheaper saddle bag by BV and get the large version, it got high reviews and it cost half as much as the Topeak.

You can watch You Tube and gain a wealth of information on backpacking and bike touring, the good ones are the ones that show you how to do it real cheap. Here in America we have Walmart, and many experience tourists, and those on You Tube get a lot of their stuff from Walmart because they find it to be almost if not just as good as the more expensive stuff but cost at least half as much. I example after watch You Tube I got a small camping fry pan, a pot, lid, handle, and a plastic cup in a kit for $8 and it works good and it's lightweight. Walmart also has a cook kit that is nonstick but it is quite a bit heavier then the one I got, but you only get a pot with a lid and a spatula, but the price on that one wasn't bad either at $15. Only problem with Walmart is that some of the stores will carry more of this sort of stuff then others, and it's seasonal, so you have to go now if you want to make sure you get a decent selection.


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## HobbesOnTour (7 Jan 2018)

Tim330 said:


> I’m looking at the Ortleib back rollers but what size would do? Don’t want to get too small. Would the 40l be sufficient for a European tour, not off the beaten track?
> 
> Anything else worth considering? The Overboard looked OK but only in a smaller size.



40 l sufficient? It all depends on what you want to bring! 
But I think the Ortliebs are great! My first self-supported tour half my panniers were full of books! 
My back roller classics have clocked up over 10,000km are are still in perfect working order.
A friend has the Vaude Aqua Plus and while I love the idea of pockets, it's a pain in the ass to stop and cover the bags with the raincovers when it's raining (especially when they also have to cover themselves up at the same time! Plus, off the bike care needs to be taken to keep them dry on wet ground. Once my ortliebs are closed I have no worries.

Don't overpack the Ortliebs because you do need to roll them down a few times to make sure they stay water-tight.

I carry my stove & food in my front panniers and here the waterproofing can be an issue because rain can get in as these are open more times in a typical day. Then they stay wet! 



Blue Hills said:


> If you do go for Ortleibs Tim (they are good) make sure that you don't end up with oold stock QL2 hooks - the things with the piggin' inserts that keep dropping out. After years of adverse comments (countered by some who insisted on worshipping everything Orrtlieb did) the German maestros finally hit on the obvious answer - make the inserts slide in from the side, rather than slide in/out from the bottom, exactly in line with the forces of removing the panniers from the rack.
> 
> And so, lo, the QL2.1 was born.
> 
> I bought a new set of hook/handle assemblies for my bikepacker Pluses, which are otherwise excellent. Have had them 15 years and despite some tough use they still look pretty much new.



I have the old system and for anyone having the same problem a handy hint is to remove the inserts altogether and instead put some high-pressure tubing (from any hardware store) on your rack. It protects the rack, removes all vibration and you need never lose an insert again.

Frank


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## Blue Hills (7 Jan 2018)

@froze, not sure where you are getting reports of ortlieb's wearing out after 2 years from. Had my bikepacker pluses for getting on for 20 years. Still look good as new. I wouldn't use semi waterproof panniers of any sort for touring. They often get put down on wet ground and if i am wildcamping or bivvying they are sometimes just left out in heavy rain. Which they are fine with.

Your experience/feedback doesn't seem to match that of many folk on here. Or other touring forums.


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## furball (13 Jan 2018)

There is no guarantee that the materials used in the manufacture of new panniers are the same as those used 20 years ago.
Having used other panniers before Ortliebs I'm not an Ortlieb fan. There are better designed pannier on the market.


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## Blue Hills (13 Jan 2018)

furball said:


> There is no guarantee that the materials used in the manufacture of new panniers are the same as those used 20 years ago.
> Having used other panniers before Ortliebs I'm not an Ortlieb fan. There are better designed pannier on the market.


How do you think it has changed? For the worse?
What do you think are the problems with Ortliebs?
Honest questions.


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## Gravity Aided (13 Jan 2018)

Perhaps Arkel? Not that I have any issues with most panniers. Buy something nice, and you only buy once. Tried cheap panniers, and an experience with them does a good job of sellling Vaude, Ortlieb, and Arkel.


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## gom (12 Feb 2018)

For myself, I recommend the Ortlieb add-on pockets https://www.ortlieb.com/en/Outer Pocket/
I have them on my rear panniers (see avatar) and now on the front ones as well. Size small in both cases. 
You have to punch 4 small holes in the pannier which seemed a bit alarming, but the fittings are tight and I’ve had no problems. 
4 pockets may seem a bit much, but I’ve found them all useful - sun hat, sun cream, waterproofs, pains aux chocolats, cans of drink, ...


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## Blue Hills (13 Feb 2018)

No problems with punching holes and subsequent damage to the pannier from subsequent loading of the pockets, chucking the panniers around? I ask because my ortlieb backpacker pluses have lived a tough life the last close on 20 years. Used for lots of heavy shopping including tins, often left outside overnight when camping or bivvying. Totally waterproof and I like the lighter more flexible plus material. Are your panniers the thicker "classic" material?

I have been very well pleased with mine them but am wary of spoiling them.

The other reason I ask is that though Ortlieb stuff is great, they do get it wrong sometimes. Their original QL2 hook is poor - inserts wear and keep dropping out, so much so that on two recent trips I was plagued by the panniers detaching themselves. Fortunately the new hook appears to solve this and can be simply retrofitted - congratulations on that Ortlieb but I remain surprised that it didn't realise from the start that inserts that went in from the bottom and were so lightly attached was a very poor idea.


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## gom (13 Feb 2018)

I’ve had no problems with the holes for the pocket fittings. The panniers have survived several trips in the hold of the European Bike Express and general use without special care. I have front and rear roller classics, both more than 10 years old. 

The fitting for 1 pocket is 2 pairs of fairly flexible plastic rails that screw together, for each pair: one inside and one outside the pannier. This provides a good seal. The pockets clip on these, and I’ve had no issues with them coming off. 

They can be sort of seen here https://www.ortlieb.com/en/Outer Pocket/ under “more images”, or look at the downloadable instructions.


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## Blue Hills (13 Feb 2018)

Many thanks for the comprehensive reply gom. I didn't realise that the puncturing was just for a mount and that the pockets just clipped on to these mounts, I had the idea that they were permanently attached.

So you can pierce, put the mounts on and sometimes use the panniers without the pockets?

I suppose them possibly coming off unseen on a ride might concern me but I assume that it's possible to rig up a failsafe restraining cord of some sort?


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## gom (13 Feb 2018)

Yes, the pockets are easily removed/attached. 
I’ve never had one come off in years of use.


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## Mike Ayling (14 Feb 2018)

I have both rollers and bike packer classics and I find the bike packers easier to open and close than the rollers.

Mike


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## Blue Hills (14 Feb 2018)

Mike Ayling said:


> I have both rollers and bike packer classics and I find the bike packers easier to open and close than the rollers.
> 
> Mike


Yes, agree. I have front roller c!assics and bike packer rears and find the bike packers way easier. This might be partly because the rears are the plus material which i think is worth the extra** as it is both lighter and more flexible/easier to wrestle with, whilst i understand actually being stronger. ** May not be the case with the front bikepacker pluses, called the "sport" or something. A pretty fearsome price for small front panniers these days, so might stick with my front roller classics which also serve as occasional rear panniers, they are great around town for holding my heavy D lock. Don't think you can go far wrong with ortliebs.


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## PJ520 (14 Feb 2018)

One grouse about Ortliebs is that they don't have compartments - everything is in one bag making it difficult to find anything.The answer to that that is packing cubes like those made by Eagle Creek


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## Blue Hills (17 Feb 2018)

No need to spend that much. I have a few cubes and bought some more to use with the ortliebs, but now don't use them. They sure aren't going to stay anything like a cube once rammed into the panniers. I find various sizes of mesh bags with tops fastened with a cord and toggle far more practical and flexible. And way cheaper.


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## aegis (19 Feb 2018)

[QUOTE 5154081, member: 45"]Cheap...

AmazonBasics Packing Cubes - Small, Medium, Large, and Slim (4-Piece Set), Black https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B014VBGUCA/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_sT.HAb623KXFQ[/QUOTE]

But not as cheap as Ikea.

http://www.ikea.com/gb/en/products/...ravel/förfina-pack-bag-set-of-6-art-90328178/


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## Heltor Chasca (19 Feb 2018)

I have a couple of Amazon’s cubes and they are great. However my old mesh kindling bags are even better. And they are orange. I like orange.


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## Kurious (23 Feb 2018)

Switching from the Karrimor Kalahari, I thought I would miss the external pockets, but not at all. I still take drybags to avoid damp contamination when throwing in damp stuff. 
Second the idea of gaffa taping any rubbing areas on the racks.
Remained waterproof after a vicious fight with an Alp (the Alp won) although one detached completely from the rack & did some off-piste downhilling on its own. 
Tough old things.


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## Blue Hills (24 Feb 2018)

Kurious said:


> .
> Remained waterproof after a vicious fight with an Alp (the Alp won) although one detached completely from the rack & did some off-piste downhilling on its own.
> .



Which pannier?

Did it use the QL2 hooks where the insert goes in from the bottom?


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## rollingthru (6 Jan 2019)

PJ520 said:


> One grouse about Ortliebs is that they don't have compartments - everything is in one bag making it difficult to find anything.The answer to that that is packing cubes like those made by Eagle Creek


I would agree about the compartments. My wife has the Lone Peak bags made in the USA & I’ve been a bit envious ever since.


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## Gravity Aided (7 Jan 2019)

I have just a seat bag made by Lone peak, and I can testify to their quality. They run from a bit over 100 USD to 200 USD. They also sell the little kit by which you can make kitty litter containers into hard side panniers.
https://lonepeakpacks.com/index.php/packs/panniers.html


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## steveindenmark (7 Jan 2019)

It all depends how much gear you take with you. That is your starting point.

I used to ride with Ortleib back rollers. They are massive and I would make sure I filled them because I had the space. Then I reduced the kit and only used front rollers on the back. Much better. Then I reduced the kit even more. I now have a Restrap holster with a drybag on the back and a home made holster on the front with a drybag. I can travel indefinately with that.

If you are carrying cooking and camping kit you obviusly need more storage space. But luggage on a bike are like cupboards at home. The bigger they are. The more stuff you will find to put in them. If you dont have the space, you need to be more selective.


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## HobbesOnTour (7 Jan 2019)

steveindenmark said:


> It all depends how much gear you take with you. That is your starting point.
> 
> I used to ride with Ortleib back rollers. They are massive and I would make sure I filled them because I had the space. Then I reduced the kit and only used front rollers on the back. Much better. Then I reduced the kit even more. I now have a Restrap holster with a drybag on the back and a home made holster on the front with a drybag. I can travel indefinately with that.
> 
> If you are carrying cooking and camping kit you obviusly need more storage space. But luggage on a bike are like cupboards at home. The bigger they are. The more stuff you will find to put in them. If you dont have the space, you need to be more selective.



Hi Steve,
I'm curious about how you did this.
Did you reduce the size/volume of the gear (eg smaller tent/sleeping mat etc.) or
Did you reduce the amount of gear? eg drop cooking gear?

Thanks!


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## mudsticks (7 Jan 2019)

steveindenmark said:


> It all depends how much gear you take with you. That is your starting point.
> 
> I used to ride with Ortleib back rollers. They are massive and I would make sure I filled them because I had the space. Then I reduced the kit and only used front rollers on the back. Much better. Then I reduced the kit even more. I now have a Restrap holster with a drybag on the back and a home made holster on the front with a drybag. I can travel indefinately with that.
> 
> If you are carrying cooking and camping kit you obviusly need more storage space. But luggage on a bike are like cupboards at home. The bigger they are. The more stuff you will find to put in them. If you dont have the space, you need to be more selective.



I would agree - the bigger the bags the more you take -

This is my set up including tent, sleeping bag, and mat, stove, food for at least three days , electricals. book, spare clothes, including all waterproofs, ( this is Scotland after all) and a rudimentry repar kit and so forth... There's quite a lot of laundry hanging off the back there - mobile clothes line type effect !!

Total weight inc bags not in excess of 12 kg 



mudsticks said:


> View attachment 443356
> 
> 
> 
> ...





It also means you can load the whole lot easily onto a train - and even hang it up fully clothed in one of them dinky bike wardrobes as in Virgin trains.

Anything that really needs to stay dry goes in a dry bag - even though the back ones are allegedly waterproof - you've still got to get the stuff to the tent - and i prefer to keep the bags on the bike .

I think I'm ready to replace the front panniers - mainly due to their age - but they don't need to be any larger.

I've not yet had the luck to get away for more than about 18 days at a time yet - but i see no reason why the same luggage wouldn't do me for much longer trips .


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## Blue Hills (7 Jan 2019)

Can't help but ask who the woman is.

As for the bike loading, I carry way more than that on the rear when touring 

My first mini tour I think I took three or four stoves 

though I only now and again front panniers.

Am seriously thinking of getting ortleibs monster rears.

https://www.spacycles.co.uk/m2b0s74p3427/ORTLIEB-Back-Roller-Pro-Plus

as my very nice bikepacker pluse rears are only 40 litres the pair.

Why ortlieb in their germanic wisdom don't do something between these and the monsters I don't know.


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## mudsticks (7 Jan 2019)

Blue Hills said:


> Can't help but ask who the woman is.
> 
> As for the bike loading, I carry way more than that on the rear when touring
> 
> ...


 


Why _on earth _did you take three or four stoves ??

I do a bit of rudimentary cooking along the way, a few sauteed veg before adding dried ingredients - and so on but i don't cater for more than just me ..

I'm quite savouring all the possibilities of new front panniers though - i'm not a big buyer of gear usually - so when i do its a big deal.
i'm inexplicably drawn to those dotty ones the Americans have - I know its just for show n all - but still. 

the picture caption says - its a glamorous woman - who liked the idea of standing next to my bike in front of some water


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## Blue Hills (7 Jan 2019)

Will remember that line.

If I get my panniers chucked in the lake will blame you 

The multiple stoves - they were different systems and I was trying to ensure that I was covered. One of the gas cartridge top stoves was from my car camping days - very good but seemed to be made of cast iron. These days I take a small remote gas stove (with preheat coil) and a collection of small adaptors which means I can use four different types of gas cannister. Plus a Trangia with a meths bottle on the underside bottle mount using the wonderful Bike Buddy. For added resilience/redundancy/ability to sit out a nuclear winter I did also buy a Trangia gas adaptor but haven't taken that yet. If all that fails, in the UK at least, my plan would be to pedal like fury to the nearest spoons.


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## mudsticks (7 Jan 2019)

Ah a belt and braces kinda guy ..

I'm afraid i like to live life on the edge - and take only one _very lightweight_ meths stove set up - Trangia are _heavy
_
i too make merry with any available eateries along the way.

Sorry - why is it that you are going to get your panniers chucked in a lake??


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## steveindenmark (7 Jan 2019)

HobbesOnTour said:


> Hi Steve,
> I'm curious about how you did this.
> Did you reduce the size/volume of the gear (eg smaller tent/sleeping mat etc.) or
> Did you reduce the amount of gear? eg drop cooking gear?
> ...


I dont take a tent. I have a bivvy bag and a poncho which doubles up as a basha. my airbed is an Exped Air ultra light. I found a lot of the heavy kit I carried was electrical charging gear. I now have a SON 28 dynamo and an Igaro D1 and so I dont need charging kit.


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## HobbesOnTour (7 Jan 2019)

steveindenmark said:


> I dont take a tent. I have a bivvy bag and a poncho which doubles up as a basha. my airbed is an Exped Air ultra light. I found a lot of the heavy kit I carried was electrical charging gear. I now have a SON 28 dynamo and an Igaro D1 and so I dont need charging kit.


Thanks for the reply.
Is it the case that you used to use a tent or has it always been the bivvy bag? What's the most number of nights in a row that you've used the bivvy bag?
And cooking gear? Did you drop that or just never carry it?

I don't mean to come across as picky - I'm just genuinely curious about how people "slim down" from panniers to a bikepacking setup.

For example, I too have a Son dynamo and a usb charging unit. The only packing advantage it delivers is that I don't need to carry a plug - but for anything longer than a weekend I would carry a plug anyway because mains charging is quicker (when available).
I have a pretty good bivvy bag and I have enjoyed a few nights in it, but I could not imagine heading off for anything longer than a weekend without the security of a tent.

And where do you carry things like a camera, phone, wallet, passport, snacks etc.? I'm assuming that the front pack means there is no handlebar bag for these things?

I can imagine using a bikepacking setup for a well planned weekend trip, but I just don't see the viability for an "indefinite" trip. I know I *could *do it that way, but I don't see myself being particularly comfortable while doing it.
Convince me!  Please!


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## Blue Hills (7 Jan 2019)

mudsticks said:


> Ah a belt and braces kinda guy ..
> 
> I'm afraid i like to live life on the edge - and take only one _very lightweight_ meths stove set up - Trangia are _heavy
> _
> ...


you gave the impression that you met a woman along the way - that you told her she was gorgeous enough to pose in front of your bike, panniers and camping clobber. Maybe I misunderstood.
all the best


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## rogerzilla (7 Jan 2019)

I have a set of front and back rollers. They're ok, they go on and off easily but they're not the easiest things to fasten (the clue's in the name).


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## mudsticks (7 Jan 2019)

Blue Hills said:


> you gave the impression that you met a woman along the way - that you told her she was gorgeous enough to pose in front of your bike, panniers and camping clobber. Maybe I misunderstood.
> all the best



I think she already knew she was _gorgeous enough..._
Not that I would disbar folks from standing by my bike based on looks.. 

But I still don't get the panniers in the lake thing?? Is it a Cycle Chat ritual I've not come across yet??

I really hope not, I can swim OK but not that brilliant at diving...


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## Blue Hills (8 Jan 2019)

As in offended at/rejecting a line mudsticks.


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## mudsticks (8 Jan 2019)

Blue Hills said:


> As in offended at/rejecting a line mudsticks.



Aha - all these uber chunky, super waterproof ortlieb panniers are starting to make sense now - 

Insurance against, and added buoyancy too, should they get thrown off a bridge, when ones advances are misjudged.

I'd love to know, if such a thing has actually ever happened to anyone. 

In the meantime - Back to the lighter weight panniers.


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## uphillstruggler (8 Jan 2019)

I borrowed a mates ortlieb panniers a while ago. they were a massive step up from some I bought from Halfords, one handed removal and refitting. the clips were good too.

I set about looking for something similar without the price tag and found these - Altura Sonic 40 Waterproof Pannier. I haven't toured with them yet but I have had both loaded fully when out shopping and they work just as well, one handed operation, robust and fully waterproof. time will tell but at the £70 I paid for the pair, it was worth the gamble. even If they prove not to be as waterproof, the money I saved can pay for lots of liners.

I will post a review when I have used them fully later this year.

not sure if any of that helps though


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## Pat "5mph" (8 Jan 2019)

On the by, for folks looking to buy the real Ortliebs cheaper, Ebay sometimes has second hand ones for sale, little used.
I got a pair for £50 delivered a couple of years ago, with straps, hooks in different sizes, a repair kit.
All I had to do was to give them a wipe, I am pretty sure they will outlive me!
Downside on a second hand Ortlieb bargain is, imo, the best buys are always black or yellow items.
I prefer red, but beggars can't be choosers


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## Blue Hills (8 Jan 2019)

uphillstruggler said:


> I borrowed a mates ortlieb panniers a while ago. they were a massive step up from some I bought from Halfords, one handed removal and refitting. the clips were good too.
> 
> I set about looking for something similar without the price tag and found these - Altura Sonic 40 Waterproof Pannier. I haven't toured with them yet but I have had both loaded fully when out shopping and they work just as well, one handed operation, robust and fully waterproof. time will tell but at the £70 I paid for the pair, it was worth the gamble. even If they prove not to be as waterproof, the money I saved can pay for lots of liners.
> 
> ...


Good find.

These I assume:

https://www.evanscycles.com/altura-sonic-40-waterproof-panniers-pair-EV312812

I see that they have the better Altura fastening system - the one with the red button. That is possibly better than Ortlieb's system - definitely better than the systems before 2.1 with the drop-out inserts.

I wouldn't expect them to leak.


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## Mike Ayling (9 Jan 2019)

MichaelW2 said:


> The white Ortliebs look better if you want to stay classy. Also easier to find things inside.


Depends where you ride:
On a coach tour in outback Queensland our driver stopped to offer water to a touring cyclist when the temperature was 40C.
I can tell you that the white Ortliebs don't look too flash when coated with red outback dust! Red would be much more suitable in these circumstances!

Mike


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## uphillstruggler (9 Jan 2019)

Blue Hills said:


> Good find.
> 
> These I assume:
> 
> ...



That's the ones, I don't expect them to leak either but can't say for sure yet as I haven't been caught out with them

I'm pleased with them quality wise though.


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## Blue Hills (9 Jan 2019)

Pat "5mph" said:


> On the by, for folks looking to buy the real Ortliebs cheaper, Ebay sometimes has second hand ones for sale, little used.
> I got a pair for £50 delivered a couple of years ago, with straps, hooks in different sizes, a repair kit.
> All I had to do was to give them a wipe, I am pretty sure they will outlive me!
> Downside on a second hand Ortlieb bargain is, imo, the best buys are always black or yellow items.
> I prefer red, but beggars can't be choosers


Yes. I got a pair of backrollers for £30, now my favourite shopping panniers. As you say they wear very well, my 20 year old backpackers still look like new. I did recently upgrade the hook system to 2.1 - another good thing about ortliebs - easy availability of spares. My three sets of ortliebs will also doubtless outlive me. Better get writing that will I suppose.


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## mudsticks (9 Jan 2019)

Blue Hills said:


> Yes. I got a pair of backrollers for £30, now my favourite shopping panniers. As you say they wear very well, my 20 year old backpackers still look like new. I did recently upgrade the hook system to 2.1 - another good thing about ortliebs - easy availability of spares. My three sets of ortliebs will also doubtless outlive me. Better get writing that will I suppose.




Could I be a total nerd and ask you how much those ortlieb weigh??

I'm hoping before tooo long, to do longer trips, in more remote places, so although I'm always looking to keep weight down, I might want sturdier too.

Rock ripped panniers, spilling their contents, miles from anywhere might not be so clever..


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## Blue Hills (9 Jan 2019)

I could weigh them mudsticks but judging by the mounting system they are quite an old model so I use them for shopping, not touring. I would check online, if all else fails on the ortlieb site. To tell the truth, I don't think weight is an issue with touring panniers, definitely not with my style of packing.


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## Blue Hills (9 Jan 2019)

Mike Ayling said:


> Depends where you ride:
> On a coach tour in outback Queensland our driver stopped to offer water to a touring cyclist when the temperature was 40C.
> I can tell you that the white Ortliebs don't look too flash when coated with red outback dust! Red would be much more suitable in these circumstances!
> 
> Mike


Quite, but at least we now know the "classy" iindividual responsible for the white ones. Bivvying or even tenting I often leave the ortliebs outside, even if rain is expected. For of course they won't leak. Pretty sure they wouldn't look great in the morning if white, might get some askance looks from folks looking at the soiling or what they imagined to be something worse.


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## mudsticks (9 Jan 2019)

Blue Hills said:


> I could weigh them mudsticks but judging by the mounting system they are quite an old model so I use them for shopping, not touring. I would check online, if all else fails on the ortlieb site. To tell the truth, I don't think weight is an issue with touring panniers, definitely not with my style if packing.



Thanks Blue Hills I'm just being lazy.. More online research needed.

But can't agree re weight.. You can go further (or even the same distance) for much less effort, with reduced weight of stuff.. 

Plus you don't have to spend time managing it all. 
Keeping track of four stoves, must be a full time job for you, on the road 


(Where's our emoticon with panniers please mods??)


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## Blue Hills (9 Jan 2019)

Now now mudsticks, the four stove mini tour was a one off


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## mudsticks (9 Jan 2019)

Blue Hills said:


> Now now mudsticks, the four stove mini tour was a one off



So how many have you pruned to now??


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## Blue Hills (9 Jan 2019)

mudsticks said:


> So how many have you pruned to now??


Answered that upthread mudsticks.


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## Pat "5mph" (9 Jan 2019)

mudsticks said:


> Could I be a total nerd and ask you how much those ortlieb weigh??


Just got the scales out for you: 1kg each.


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## mudsticks (9 Jan 2019)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Just got the scales out for you: 1kg each.



Thanks Pat 
Might have to go the mid - way
That's quite heavy x 4.
Further research required - when time allows.


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## froze (19 Jan 2019)

Blue Hills said:


> @froze, not sure where you are getting reports of ortlieb's wearing out after 2 years from. Had my bikepacker pluses for getting on for 20 years. Still look good as new. I wouldn't use semi waterproof panniers of any sort for touring. They often get put down on wet ground and if i am wildcamping or bivvying they are sometimes just left out in heavy rain. Which they are fine with.
> 
> Your experience/feedback doesn't seem to match that of many folk on here. Or other touring forums.



I just saw this, sorry it took so long. Apparently there were certain years of versions that were having wear issues on the corners, the older ones were bulletproof; see: https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/how-to-repair-ortlieb-pannier-fabric/
and: https://cyclocamping.com/blog/2016/01/29/field-test-ortlieb-back-roller-classic/

I didn't mean to imply that Ortliebs are a junk bag, no, I think they are indeed among the best, I just don't think they're _the_ best, but I don't think any bag is coming out ahead as _the_ best, just different styles of bags that are similar to others that tie them for the best.


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