# Worth upgrading?



## lulubel (13 Aug 2012)

After spending the last month or so whizzing around on my new road bike, the Olympic MTB events inspired me to get out on the MTB again yesterday, and I was amazed and delighted by how much I enjoyed it.

(I used it as my main bike for 4 months while I was without a road bike, and most of my riding was on road because I knew I was wrecking the cheap wheels and couldn't afford to replace them, so I kept off the rough stuff, with the result that it was really quite dull. Yesterday, I took it up the mountain behind town and on some new trails that I haven't explored before, and I loved every moment, and can hardly wait to get out on it again.)

The MTB is a BH Over-X hardtail, it's nearly 3 years old, and it's barely been used except March - June this year, when I managed to cover over 2,500km on it. It cost €260 when I bought it, so it's pretty low end. Maintenance has been the occasional clean, a bit of chain lube and adjusting cables when necessary.

I'm lucky in that I have (literally) hundreds of kms of natural trails practically on my doorstep, and I really want to take advantage of them. I've looked at quite a few bikes up to the €1,000 (about £800) price range, and there are some really lovely ones, but I've just built myself a road bike, and buying something "off the shelf" that I'd then probably want to tweak doesn't really appeal. Also, €1,000 is quite a lot to splash out in one go.

So, I'm wondering about spending the money on my cheap BH instead, by upgrading components over time, mostly as they wear out. I like the frame a lot. It's tiny - the smallest women specific frame - and easy to handle. I think anything bigger would be "too much bike" for me. I also weighed it this morning, and I was surprised to find it "only" weighs 13.6kg. At that price point, I did expect it to be heavier, to be honest, and my guess is replacing the wheels and forks would reduce that significantly.

I can't find my camera to take a photo, but this is the closest I could find online.






According to the description that was with the photo, this one has an 8-sp cassette (mine is 7-sp) and the forks have a lockout option (mine don't). But it looks like my bike, except that my frame is smaller, so that the top tube and seat stays almost make a straight line.

My ultimate goal would be to get some lightweight wheels that will roll well, good quality forks with remote lockout (Rock Shox Reba, maybe?), and a mostly XT groupset - I have an XT rear mech on my road bike, and it changes so smoothly, it's the closest I've ever been to being in love with a bike component. Plus a less naff looking stem, some wider, straighter bars that will suit my riding position better, and a more comfy saddle. So, basically, I'd be replacing everything except the frame.

Is that a really stupid thing to do with a bike that only cost €260? Or is it worth it to stick with a frame that I'm very attached to?


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## Rickshaw Phil (13 Aug 2012)

I think that really it is a question only you can answer. Financially it doesn't make sense, _*but*_ there is a lot of pleasure to be had from building a bike to your own spec which can't be measured monetarily.

If it is a frame that you are attached to and you will be doing it a bit at a time, then why not?

Before you spend any money on wheels, do check that the frame has the right spacing for the rear axle. Although there are plenty of 7 speed cassettes around, it is currently more common for 7 speed to be a screw-on freewheel which might use a shorter axle length. You need 135mm between the dropouts for a cassette type wheel to fit.


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## RecordAceFromNew (13 Aug 2012)

I agree with everything Phil said, but I think it would be very unlikely that your bike doesn't have 135mm rear dropout spacing. The vast majority of mtbs made over the past 20 years have.

However it is quite likely that you have a freewheel (since they are cheaper), they are considerably heavier than cassettes generally. Assuming saving a couple of kgs while upgrading for superior performance for a few hundred euros is what you want, if I were you what I would do is to do a quick assessment of the key existing components' weights. The key components where reasonable weight saving is likely available easily are wheels, tyres and tubes, saddle, seatpost, pedals, forks and chainset/bb. You usually don't have to remove pedals, forks and chainset to weigh them, if you have the make and model their weights are likely available through searches. It might also be worthwhile going round the components with a magnet to assure the handlebar e.g. is not steel. Once you have the existing weights it becomes relatively easy to assess what saving and performance enhancement is available at what cost.

I wish I had a few hundreds of kms of natural trails on my doorstep...


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## lulubel (13 Aug 2012)

Thanks for the replies, and - yes - I suppose it doesn't make a great deal of sense from a financial point of view, other than being able to spread the cost out by doing it this way.

Part of my reasoning behind keeping the frame, even though I could get something better in performance terms, is that I built my road bike around a hefty steel frame and forks, but with decent and relatively lightweight components. It came in at 0.8kg heavier than my old road bike, but my average speeds on it are around 2-3k/h faster. Some of that speed increase can probably be explained by increased strength from riding the MTB, but not all, so I put the rest of it down to wheels that - if I had paid full price for the components and had them professionally built rather than shopping around and then building them myself - would have cost nearly as much as my old bike. I've come to the conclusion that wheels are the single most important aspect in performance/how easy a bike is to ride, and I'm hoping the same will hold true in the MTB world. I've also discovered I like building wheels, and would welcome an excuse to build more.

I'll definitely measure the rear dropouts because that could be the difference between the project happening or not.

RecordAce, thanks for the suggestion to check component weights online. I wouldn't have thought of that.

This is getting quite exciting. I love a project.


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## Crackle (13 Aug 2012)

Those Suntour forks will weigh nearly 2.5kg at least, probably nearer 3. Even a cheap pair of Rock Shox will weigh less and perform better. Keep an eye on On One, they often have excellent fork deals.

One of the things that would put me off is not being able to move to discs on it. I go through V brake pads very quickly off road and discs are so much better that my next mtn bike will definitely have them.

There is though, a certain joy in upgrading a bike you have owned and used, even if it doesn't make sense economically. When I do get a new mtn bike and retire my Marin, it will retire to touring and I don't care too much if it doesn't make economic sense, we've been through too much together.


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## lukesdad (13 Aug 2012)

I'd only do it if you really love the frame.


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## Rickshaw Phil (13 Aug 2012)

You'll probably find that the wheels will make a big difference the same as with a road bike and as you say, being able to build them yourself will make the project more affordable. (Chapeau on that by the way - I can replace spokes and true a wheel but haven't built any of my own yet ).

You obviously have the skills. This sounds like it'll be a fun build.


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## RecordAceFromNew (13 Aug 2012)

Crackle said:


> One of the things that would put me off is not being able to move to discs on it. I go through V brake pads very quickly off road and discs are so much better that my next mtn bike will definitely have them.


 
Good point - in fact it is going through expensive wheels/rims rather than pads that hurts most, although there is nothing to stop the OP having disc up front (cable operated, such as BB7, if lever symmetry is important), since it is practically certain that new forks would have disc tabs. Indeed most quality forks today aren't available with rim brake bosses any more. The front is also usually where rim wear is worse.

On that same subject, most of the best mtb rims and indeed nearly all quality factory mtb wheels are no longer available with braking surface, which is probably worth to be borne in mind by the OP.

One can theoretically retrofit rear disc brake tabs on most mtb frames (look up A2Z bracket), but it is a kludge.

Equipment performance enhancement in general, and weight reduction in particular, is imho more rewarding on mtbs than on road bikes.


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## lulubel (13 Aug 2012)

Crackle said:


> One of the things that would put me off is not being able to move to discs on it. I go through V brake pads very quickly off road and discs are so much better that my next mtn bike will definitely have them.


 


RecordAceFromNew said:


> Good point - in fact it is going through expensive wheels/rims rather than pads that hurts most, although there is nothing to stop the OP having disc up front since it is practically certain that new forks would have disc tabs.
> 
> On that same subject, most of the best mtb rims and indeed nearly all quality factory mtb wheels are no longer available with braking surface, which is probably worth to be borne in mind by the OP.


 
That has crossed my mind, but if it came to the point where the rims needed replacing and I couldn't get any with a braking surface, I suppose I would have to either do a bit of a bodge job or replace the frame.

Since I'll rarely be riding it in the rain, and the ground doesn't stay wet long enough here for the braking surfaces to get clogged up with mud, I think the performance benefits of discs will be minimal. Plus the rims and pads won't be suffering the same amount of wear as if they were getting caked with mud and grit all the time. The idea of putting disc on the front and rim on the back is interesting, though.



lukesdad said:


> I'd only do it if you really love the frame.


 
The thing about the frame is that it fits me so perfectly, and none of my research has shown up anything with so much standover or such a short reach. I'm not confident on technical descents as it is, although I'm getting better, and I know being able to just hop off the bike so easily if it gets too difficult is a big factor in my increasing confidence. (The annoying thing about it is that it will only fit one - short and squat - 500ml bottle and I hate having anything on my back, so I've been having an interesting time exploring hydration options.)



Rickshaw Phil said:


> You'll probably find that the wheels will make a big difference the same as with a road bike and as you say, being able to build them yourself will make the project more affordable. (Chapeau on that by the way - I can replace spokes and true a wheel but haven't built any of my own yet )


 
Thanks. I'm the opposite, in that I've never trued a wheel that I didn't build, and I find the idea of that quite intimidating! If you can replace spokes and true a wheel, you can build one from scratch. It's just a case of following the instructions and putting the spokes in the right holes!


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## Lancj1 (14 Aug 2012)

To be honest having read what I have over recent times about bike frames being made in Far Eastern factories by the same welder, I would guess that they must all be the same, more or less ? By that I mean 60__ alloy is what it is. They dont tell people to weld badly because this is going to be bottom end - do they....? I have a Giant Boulder 2008 and its a really solid frame. My plan is to upgrade as I need to. I don't like disk brakes and prefer V so have already put new Deore Vs on front and back. Next its the fork - probably a Recon, then Deore chainset, and wheels as they break. 

Works for me - yes more expensive over time but if you haven't got the £ lump to drop on a new bike in one go, that's missing the point ?


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## lukesdad (14 Aug 2012)

Seat post mounted bottle ?


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## lulubel (15 Aug 2012)

Lancj1 said:


> Works for me - yes more expensive over time but if you haven't got the £ lump to drop on a new bike in one go


 
That's partly where I was coming from as well. And I'll also get some experience from riding the bike, and have more idea of what suits me as I upgrade bits (rather than buying a whole new bike that might not be exactly what I want).



lukesdad said:


> Seat post mounted bottle ?


 
I've ordered a Topeak seatpost/handlebar mount that I hope will do the job. I'll probably try it up front to begin with and see how I get on with it - less chance of the bottle bouncing out there with the suspension forks smoothing the ride - plus, I'm not sure what I'd do with the stuff that's currently in my under-saddle pack. (Having been in a crash that left me with bruising on my back, I value my kidneys too much to put anything sharp or hard in my jersey pockets.)


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## VamP (15 Aug 2012)

I did a similar thing recently - great fun. Few thoughts:

1. What is the headtube diameter on that frame? Looks really petite in that pic, and obviously if it's not 1 and eighth, then whatever forks you get will not transfer to an upgrade frame in the future.

2. I would not be scared to put a disc up front, and keep the V on the back. The front does 80% of the braking anyway. When you build your wheels use a six-bolt hub for the rear as well. There's no reason why you can't use a rim with a braking strip, even if that will ultimately become redundant. 

3. Weigh the frame once you've got it stripped down, that will give you a better idea of future frame upgrade upside.

4. Just to give you an idea on weights - my Pace framed build with a mixture of SLX, XT componentry and Rebas comes in at 10.9 kg, that's with a good but not exceptionally light wheelset and in Large size. The frame itself comes in at 1.6 kg.

5. The best price for Rebas that I found was on Merlin. Around £260 IIRC.

6. Rebas are amazing. They will transform your notion of what MTBing is about. Make sure that you learn how to set them up properly, the RS instructions for this are inadequate.


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## lulubel (15 Aug 2012)

VamP said:


> 1. What is the headtube diameter on that frame? Looks really petite in that pic, and obviously if it's not 1 and eighth, then whatever forks you get will not transfer to an upgrade frame in the future.


 
Good point, although I think it's probably chunkier than it looks. The downtube is diamond shaped, which makes it look very hefty, so all the other tubes look small by comparison. I'll see if the headset is marked with its size or, failing that, measure.

The 10.9kg weight is interesting. That's 0.1kg heavier than my Surly Crosscheck. If I can get mine to come in at that kind of weight (which I should be able to, with decent components and given the small size of the frame) I'll be very happy.

Everything I've read about the Rebas so far has made me want them. It does seem kind of crazy to consider spending more on forks than I spent on the whole bike, but crazy can also be a lot of fun!


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## GrumpyGregry (15 Aug 2012)

lulubel said:


> I've ordered a Topeak seatpost/handlebar mount that I hope will do the job. I'll probably try it up front to begin with and see how I get on with it - less chance of the bottle bouncing out there with the suspension forks smoothing the ride - plus, I'm not sure what I'd do with the stuff that's currently in my under-saddle pack. (Having been in a crash that left me with bruising on my back, I value my kidneys too much to put anything sharp or hard in my jersey pockets.)


Camelbak do a runners bumbag thing called a ?Daleney? that takes two water bottles. It sits really low. I've used it on long (road) rides on a bike with no bottle mounts and off-road when I've not wanted to lug a bladder around. I've landed on it and it has done no harm so far. This is the one bottle version....


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## RecordAceFromNew (15 Aug 2012)

lulubel said:


> Everything I've read about the Rebas so far has made me want them. It does seem kind of crazy to consider spending more on forks than I spent on the whole bike, but crazy can also be a lot of fun!


 
If you are considering the Reba you might also want to consider SID. I am suggesting them because they are sometimes not that much more expensive than the Reba but lighter and often more tune-able. My SID is no longer the current version, but I think the comparison table below is up to date:








I don't think either is available stock with rim brake bosses any more. If that is important to you I think one of the best, if not the best still available is the Manitou R7. I also happen to have a pair and while not as tune-able as the above they are plenty plush enough (they were considered amongst the bees knees 5 years ago) and fairly maintenance free. They are also relatively inexpensive.


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