# Stand up and be counted.



## snorri (15 Nov 2018)

Apparently the number of aggressive cyclists on our roads has reached such a level that they now feature in a list of male motorists worries.
https://www.roadsafetysupport.co.uk/news/traffic-congestion-beats-social-media-drivers’-biggest-worry


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## classic33 (15 Nov 2018)

Maybe if they left us a bit more room, they'd have less to worry about us.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (15 Nov 2018)

Good.


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## Slioch (15 Nov 2018)

It's a shame the questions didn't seem to dig deep any deeper. It would have been illuminating to know what they think may be causing the cyclists aggression.


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## pjd57 (15 Nov 2018)

Do they define what an " aggressive cyclist " is ?

Is it their style of cycling or are they routinely peddling along hurling insults at timid motorists.?


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## derrick (16 Nov 2018)

pjd57 said:


> Do they define what an " aggressive cyclist " is ?
> 
> Is it their style of cycling or are they routinely peddling along hurling insults at timid motorists.?


Maybe taking primary position. Seems to upset a lot of motorist.


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## classic33 (16 Nov 2018)

derrick said:


> Maybe taking primary position. Seems to upset a lot of motorist.


If I feel it's not safe, for me, to let them past, I'll take & hold primary as long as I'm moving as quick as they are.

They don't like it, tough.


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## Shut Up Legs (16 Nov 2018)

derrick said:


> Maybe taking primary position. Seems to upset a lot of motorist.


Maybe they're existing. That seems to upset a lot of motorists.


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## Globalti (16 Nov 2018)

It's because drivers watch videos on YouTube, innit.


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## Drago (16 Nov 2018)

Quite an irony, seeing as aggressive motorists have been hitting bicycle sales for 3 decades or more.


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## Ian H (16 Nov 2018)

Aggression breeds aggression. And it works both ways.


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## classic33 (16 Nov 2018)

Drago said:


> Quite an irony, seeing as aggressive motorists have been hitting bicycle sales for 3 decades or more.


They can hit sales as much as they want, so long as they stop hitting folk. Hit last night whilst walking across a light controlled crossing, with them in my favour. Flashing amber and the driver was off.


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## Drago (16 Nov 2018)

Ian H said:


> Aggression breeds aggression. And it works both ways.



Don't be ridiculous. You want Some? Right, outside, now!


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## Milkfloat (16 Nov 2018)

Drago said:


> Quite an irony, seeing as aggressive motorists have been hitting bicycle sales *cyclists *for 3 decades or more.



FTFY


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## Smokin Joe (16 Nov 2018)

It's not "Cyclists" or "Motorists" or "Truckers", or whatever else. Many people are just more aggressive now and it does not matter what their mode of transport they will be peanuts. Of course the bigger the vehicle the more harm you can do, but I'd bet the finger wagging shout at everyone bike riders behave just the same when they drive a car.


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## glasgowcyclist (16 Nov 2018)

I've never once seen a cyclist be aggressive towards a motorist who hadn't first threatened or harmed the rider by some act.


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## Smokin Joe (16 Nov 2018)

glasgowcyclist said:


> I've never once seen a cyclist be aggressive towards a motorist who hadn't first threatened or harmed the rider by some act.


I have, though not often. I have seen plenty of cyclists who are aggressive towards pedestrians though.


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## nickyboy (16 Nov 2018)

"while some 45% still think it is alright to talk on a hands-free mobile phone."

It's not illegal is it? Unless they're referring to using a normal mobile phone in speaker mode, which is


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## glasgowcyclist (16 Nov 2018)

Smokin Joe said:


> I have seen plenty of cyclists who are aggressive towards pedestrians though.



I've seen that only rarely but it's horrible.


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## Heltor Chasca (16 Nov 2018)

Globalti said:


> It's because drivers watch videos on YouTube, innit.



While driving


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## Alan O (16 Nov 2018)

Smokin Joe said:


> I have, though not often. I have seen plenty of cyclists who are aggressive towards pedestrians though.


I've seen that, though rarely, too, with probably the worst last year on a mixed-use cycle path which is popular with all kinds of users - the Liverpool Loop line. I was on my bike at pootling speed, and there were walkers around too. A couple of riders in team kit came belting along shouting "coming through, coming through" and started swearing when the rest of us didn't obediently and instantly leap out of their way and they had to (shock, horror) slow down a bit.


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## classic33 (16 Nov 2018)

Heltor Chasca said:


> While driving


Possibly.


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## Ming the Merciless (16 Nov 2018)

Heltor Chasca said:


> While driving



And doing the crossword


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## mjr (16 Nov 2018)

nickyboy said:


> "while some 45% still think it is alright to talk on a hands-free mobile phone."
> 
> It's not illegal is it? Unless they're referring to using a normal mobile phone in speaker mode, which is


Not illegal, but it's not alright either because we've known for over a decade that it makes you drive almost as badly as a drunk. Alternative source

I don't go as far as the local police who suggest putting the switched-off phone in the boot to avoid temptation, but I would at least put it into voice mode and leave it in the bottom of the door bin, reading out any info you need and the names of missed callers and don't respond until you've stopped. If you miss something you needed, park up and use it then.


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## Dave Davenport (16 Nov 2018)

OK hands up, it was me. I often take out my frustration with car drivers by close passing them at speed or tailgating them whilst aggressively ringing my bell until they stop blocking the road and get out of my bleeding way!


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## classic33 (16 Nov 2018)

Dave Davenport said:


> OK hands up, it was me. I often take out my frustration with car drivers by close passing them at speed or tailgating them whilst aggressively ringing my bell until they stop blocking the road and get out of my bleeding way!


I'll admit to being less than pleased with the driver of the van that just had to get to the next set of lights, about 50 yards further up the road in Shipley.

Pulling up behind him, I gave the back end a tap, undid the clamp on the bottom bracket out front, and awaited the expected reverse that never came.

Pulled by a police officer who was curious about what I was riding at the time.


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## subaqua (16 Nov 2018)

pjd57 said:


> Do they define what an " aggressive cyclist " is ?
> 
> Is it their style of cycling or are they routinely peddling along hurling insults at timid motorists.?


I don’t have Tourette’s . The car drivers really are....


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## Drago (17 Nov 2018)

Smokin Joe said:


> It's not "Cyclists" or "Motorists" or "Truckers", or whatever else. Many people are just more aggressive now and it does not matter what their mode of transport they will be peanuts. Of course the bigger the vehicle the more harm you can do, but I'd bet the finger wagging shout at everyone bike riders behave just the same when they drive a car.



Yes, but especially the car drivers.


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## Johnno260 (17 Nov 2018)

classic33 said:


> If I feel it's not safe, for me, to let them past, I'll take & hold primary as long as I'm moving as quick as they are.
> 
> They don't like it, tough.



Yup I do this when I think someone may overtake on a sharp bend or unsafe piece of road, the insults start flying pretty swiftly.


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## User76022 (17 Nov 2018)

Slioch said:


> It's a shame the questions didn't seem to dig deep any deeper. It would have been illuminating to know what they think may be causing the cyclists aggression.


Some cyclists are just knobs. That's the way it is. Some motorists are too. Again that's the way it is. 

Now what is a much, much bigger problem, and one that makes it impossible to make things any better, ever, is this long standing feud that exists between 'the motorist' and 'the cyclist'. 

If people just saw other people rather than putting themselves and each other in neat categories, maybe we'd all show each other a bit more respect. 

We all know that some motorists disobey the rules and etiquette of the road. That's been discussed at length. But so do some cyclists. Except we're not allowed to say that. We're not allowed to say, for example, that some cyclists run red lights, or that some make no effort to make themselves visible at night, or that some weave in and out of busy traffic while every driver in said busy traffic is doing their best to not miss a single bit of the overwhelming volume of information coming at them from pedestrians, other motorists, cyclists, lane markings, road signs, signals etc. We're also not allowed to say things like that some cyclists who do consider visibility, don't think it through, like those with laser strobe / distress beacons angled straight at the eyes of oncoming motorists, who then become knobs as they allow their vehicle to wander out of the lane briefly as they do their best to make out the lane markings having just been temporarily blinded. 

For the feud to end, all sides have to look at themselves rather than constantly blaming each other and categorising people. 

I'm a motorist. I'm also a cyclist and a pedestrian. Above all I'm also a human being with a family. I try to do my best by everyone. Like absolutely every one of us, I sometimes make mistakes. I make mistakes in the car, and I make mistakes on my bike. And every time I do, I thank my lucky stars that nobody got hurt, and rather than passing the book, I look at what I did and try to learn from it with the goal of not making the same mistake again.


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## Rusty Nails (17 Nov 2018)

User76022 said:


> ............For the feud to end, all sides have to look at themselves rather than constantly blaming each other and categorising people.............



I agree 100% with your thinking, but unfortunately special interest forums like CC, whether cycling, motoring, walking or running, thrive on blaming others and minimising any possible contributory culpability of the membership group. They are not always the best source of balanced argument.


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## classic33 (17 Nov 2018)

Johnno260 said:


> Yup I do this when I think someone may overtake on a sharp bend or unsafe piece of road, the insults start flying pretty swiftly.


So long as that's all that flies in my direction, I'm safe.


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## snorri (17 Nov 2018)

User76022 said:


> For the feud to end, all sides have to look at themselves rather than constantly blaming each other and categorising people.


The feud, if there is one, is gleefully stirred by the media, and not buy individual drivers or cyclists.
It will not achieve anything for all sides to look at themselves because all sides are not on an equal footing from the start. A little research will soon show that wrong doing or recklessness of drivers results in a higher casualty rate than that of cyclists.


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## Johnno260 (17 Nov 2018)

Like User76022 said issue is people see other road users as the other side, combined with that fact respect and courtesy are non existent and people are always rushing it’s a poor situation. 

It’s also why I now leave for work over 1hr before I need to leave,and stay later to avoid the chaos.


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## Johnno260 (17 Nov 2018)

classic33 said:


> So long as that's all that flies in my direction, I'm safe.



True but sometimes they put the squeeze in you when they can pass as a way to retaliate.


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## Rusty Nails (17 Nov 2018)

snorri said:


> The feud, if there is one, is gleefully stirred by the media, and not buy individual drivers or cyclists.
> It will not achieve anything for all sides to look at themselves because all sides are not on an equal footing from the start. A little research will soon show that *wrong doing or recklessness of drivers results in a higher casualty rate than that of cyclists.*



That is obvious because of the disparity in speed/size between bikes/cars and the numbers of motorists/cyclists. It puts a much greater responsibility on motorists because of the potentially greater implications of their mistakes, but it does not absolve cyclists (or pedestrians) from their responsibilities on the roads. *Every road user, including cyclists*, must look at how they could contribute to improving safety or little will change.


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## User76022 (17 Nov 2018)

snorri said:


> A little research will soon show that wrong doing or recklessness of drivers results in a higher casualty rate than that of cyclists.


Will it really? Or will it show that whoever is at fault, or if there is no fault but just a pure accident, the cyclist usually comes off worst?


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## Smokin Joe (17 Nov 2018)

Rusty Nails said:


> That is obvious because of the disparity in speed/size between bikes/cars and the numbers of motorists/cyclists. It puts a much greater responsibility on motorists because of the potentially greater implications of their mistakes, but it does not absolve cyclists (or pedestrians) from their responsibilities on the roads. *Every road user, including cyclists*, must look at how they could contribute to improving safety or little will change.


Exactly.


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## classic33 (17 Nov 2018)

User76022 said:


> Will it really? Or will it show that whoever is at fault, or if there is no fault but just a pure accident, the cyclist usually comes off worst?


The heavier method tends to come out of any impact better.


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## Ming the Merciless (17 Nov 2018)

User76022 said:


> Will it really? Or will it show that whoever is at fault, or if there is no fault but just a pure accident, the cyclist usually comes off worst?



Yes, check the output of the Government analysis and the recklessness of car drivers in this regard.


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## adamangler (17 Nov 2018)

I just ignore them and carry on riding, who cares if someone swears at you. If they are that big they'll stop and get out at which point great let's tango.


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## snorri (18 Nov 2018)

User76022 said:


> Will it really? Or will it show that whoever is at fault, or if there is no fault but just a pure accident, the cyclist usually comes off worst?


I can't think of a form of collision where there is no fault and where the incident would be considered to be a "pure accident", which is why crashes nowadays are more frequently referred to as a road traffic collision (RTC) rather than a road traffic accident (RTA).
This link take you to some information regarding the dangers cyclists inflict on their fellow road users.
https://fullfact.org/health/cyclist-deaths/


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## User76022 (18 Nov 2018)

snorri said:


> I can't think of a form of collision where there is no fault and where the incident would be considered to be a "pure accident", which is why crashes nowadays are more frequently referred to as a road traffic collision (RTC) rather than a road traffic accident (RTA).
> This link take you to some information regarding the dangers cyclists inflict on their fellow road users.
> https://fullfact.org/health/cyclist-deaths/



I'm sure you're not suggesting that cyclists are never to blame and it is always the motorist at fall. 

My friend was telling me about a polite discussion he had in the pub after a car driver recognised him from an early incident. My friend, a cyclist at the moment of the incident, admitted error and asked for my advice, in my capacity as an experienced driver {he doesn't drive} on how to avoid a repeat incident. 

It went like this. There is a junction between his house and mine. It's not a blind junction but the layout is such that you can't see very far down on approach. He said he was going fast, checked, it looked clear, so he came straight out. At this point a car had to brake hard and beep at him. My mate rode on. 

From what I can gather, based only on my knowledge of that junction and my mate's honest account of the incident, the car driver did an excellent job of avoiding a collision with a cyclist, that would have been caused by said cyclist pulling onto the junction at speed without warning. If that motorist had been a bit less sharp with his reactions, or if my mate had crossed the give way lines half a second earlier, my mate would have become a statistic. Then every cycling forum in the UK could have a thread about naughty car drivers.


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## Drago (18 Nov 2018)

Rusty Nails said:


> I agree 100% with your thinking, but unfortunately special interest forums like CC, whether cycling, motoring, walking or running, thrive on blaming others and minimising any possible contributory culpability of the membership group. They are not always the best source of balanced argument.



Indeed. Plenty of bellends on the road, and too many people complaining that Challenger tank drivers should take extra care, blah, yadda, and use that as a justification for doing bugger all themselves.

I have a radical idea - If we stop sticking our noses into that which other people are doing, and each and every one of us pay attention to that which we are doing, then there would be no problem. No one has more or less responsibility - we can all kill with greater or lesser degrees of efficiency but more pertinently, each of us is just as vulnerable to being killed. 

Physics, blunt force trauma, major organ failure...none of these things care what you're doing when they come to visit, none of these things care how righteous you are.


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## glasgowcyclist (18 Nov 2018)

Drago said:


> each of us is just as vulnerable to being killed.



I disagree with this part. The casualty figures for each category of road user per billion miles travelled show that pedestrians, cyclists and motorcyclist are far more likely to be killed or injured than any other.







People in motor cars have sophisticated and effective protection systems that insulate them from harm to such a degree that, as drivers, they lose all perspective of the harm to which those outwith those cars are exposed.

I would also suggest that this insulation from harm engenders the bullying attitude so often seen in encounters between drivers and vulnerable road users. And by that I'm not talking only about collisions but the general interactions on the road. Drivers will often intimidate pedestrians at crossings by creeping forward or revving their engine, even though the pedestrian still has priority; fail to wait behind parked vehicles on their side when a cyclist is coming the other way; squeeze past a cyclist at a pinch point etc.

They flex their muscles this way through a sense of greater entitlement and importance and in the knowledge that, in the event of a collision, they are least likely to be injured.

So, while everyone has responsibility for road safety, those who bring the greater risk of harm bear greater responsibility.


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## Drago (18 Nov 2018)

Mr G, my human body is as vulnerable to blunt force trauma as yours or anyone elses. 

As I pointed out, if we each paid proper attention to what we are each doing ourselves, and stopped worrying about what everyone else was up to then there would be no problem to complain about. If I may respectfully say so, the attitude that one is worse than the other simply perpetuates the problem and does nothing to address it. 

Shouting "IT WAS MY RIGHT OF WAY!!!" as you're wheeled into an ambulance is wasted breath. The object of the game is to be alive, not to be righteous.

If you, I, my Mum, Shaun, Accy, everyone on the planet each take responsibility for our actions and pay attention to what we are doing, there will be no problem to complain about. The whole model collapses when just a single sector of society decides they are more important with respect to the model, and someone else should shoulder more blame or responsibility. While such attitudes prevail the problem will never go away. In fact, I confidently predict that such attitudes will prevail, society as a whole will fail to take responsibilty, and in 10 years time we'll still be here complaining about it. We will continue to reap that which we sow while such attitudes prevail.


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## Smokin Joe (18 Nov 2018)

The best advice I ever got was, "_It's none of your business_ _how other people drive, you have no control over that. Your duty is to use the road in a manner that does not endanger yourself or anyone else."_


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## classic33 (18 Nov 2018)

Drago said:


> Indeed.* Plenty of bellends on the road, and too many people complaining that Challenger tank drivers should take extra care, *blah, yadda, and use that as a justification for doing bugger all themselves.
> 
> I have a radical idea - If we stop sticking our noses into that which other people are doing, and each and every one of us pay attention to that which we are doing, then there would be no problem. No one has more or less responsibility - we can all kill with greater or lesser degrees of efficiency but more pertinently, each of us is just as vulnerable to being killed.
> 
> Physics, blunt force trauma, major organ failure...none of these things care what you're doing when they come to visit, none of these things care how righteous you are.


No-one tried to pass the Abbott SPG, staying below the 20mph limit recently. Didn't see anyone wanting to argue with the driver for going too slow either.


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## mjr (18 Nov 2018)

Rusty Nails said:


> That is obvious because of the disparity in speed/size between bikes/cars and the numbers of motorists/cyclists.


The difference in numbers of motorists/cyclists is negated by looking at rates instead of absolute numbers. The disparity in speed/size is a contributing factor, for sure, but we know from government research that motorists are found to be at fault in motorist-cyclist collisions more often than cyclists.



> It puts a much greater responsibility on motorists because of the potentially greater implications of their mistakes, but it does not absolve cyclists (or pedestrians) from their responsibilities on the roads. *Every road user, including cyclists*, must look at how they could contribute to improving safety or little will change.


Sure, and because we know from government research that so-called risky cycling (see, I mention it and acknowledge it exists) is rarely actually risky, our biggest contribution is to campaign for better motorist education and tougher enforcement.


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## glasgowcyclist (19 Nov 2018)

Drago said:


> Shouting "IT WAS MY RIGHT OF WAY!!!" as you're wheeled into an ambulance is wasted breath. The object of the game is to be alive, not to be righteous.



That's not an argument I'm making. I follow the advice of the HC and "always give way if it can help to avoid an accident".



Drago said:


> Mr G, my human body is as vulnerable to blunt force trauma as yours or anyone elses.



In the context of road traffic collisions? If that were true, the graph in my earlier tweet would be flat.


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## Rusty Nails (19 Nov 2018)

mjr said:


> The difference in numbers of motorists/cyclists is negated by looking at rates instead of absolute numbers. The disparity in speed/size is a contributing factor, for sure, but we know from government research that *motorists are found to be at fault in motorist-cyclist collisions more often than cyclists.*
> 
> 
> Sure, and because we know from government research that so-called risky cycling (see, I mention it and acknowledge it exists) is rarely actually risky, *our biggest contribution is to campaign for better motorist education and tougher enforcement*.




That's OK then. Nothing to see here, not our fault, move on and business as usual. 

I trust you are not saying our biggest contribution should be the only contribution.


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## Heltor Chasca (19 Nov 2018)

Until they ban all humans, nothing will be perfect.

*You listening god? If a member on here (though probably doesn’t pay the £9 Advert Block)


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## mjr (19 Nov 2018)

Rusty Nails said:


> That's OK then. Nothing to see here, not our fault, move on and business as usual.
> 
> I trust you are not saying our biggest contribution should be the only contribution.


Indeed I am not. Similarly, I trust you and others are not saying we should devote lots of focus to tiny nearly-irrelevant cyclist-only contributions and ignore the much bigger helpful contributions?


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## mjr (19 Nov 2018)

Heltor Chasca said:


> *You listening god? If a member on here (though probably doesn’t pay the £9 Advert Block)


God has been pwned when trying to upgrade his computer.


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## Rusty Nails (19 Nov 2018)

mjr said:


> Indeed I am not. Similarly, I trust you and others are not saying we should devote lots of focus to tiny nearly-irrelevant cyclist-only contributions and ignore the much bigger helpful contributions?



I am saying we can directly, quickly and easily ensure that our actions on the road are not exacerbating safety issues. Continuing to lobby for improved safety consideration (and appropriate legal sanctions) by motorists is vitally important, but is indirectly out of our control, and is a very slow-moving mechanism.


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## Shortandcrisp (19 Nov 2018)

User76022 said:


> Some cyclists are just knobs. That's the way it is. Some motorists are too. Again that's the way it is.
> 
> Now what is a much, much bigger problem, and one that makes it impossible to make things any better, ever, is this long standing feud that exists between 'the motorist' and 'the cyclist'.
> 
> ...



As our Saturday group leader puts it: “There’s no such thing as cyclists, just people who happen to ride bikes.”


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## Rusty Nails (19 Nov 2018)

Shortandcrisp said:


> As our Saturday group leader puts it: “There’s no such thing as cyclists, just people who happen to ride bikes.”



True, but not every person who rides a bike agrees. I remember a recent spat about the unfairness/bias of the BBC referring to a person who was riding a bike, and had shot someone, as a cyclist.


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## User76022 (19 Nov 2018)

Thinking about this, and this is just my own experience. The most scary form of road user seems to be the taxi driver. Most private vehicles, vans, buses, wagons, other cyclists and pedestrians mostly apply a good mix of rules and respect and courtesy. There are always exceptions of course. But I've come to notice that if someone tries to squash me, more often than not, it is a taxi. 

Of course I have no stats to support this. Its just my own observation. But it does seem ironic that a group of road users that have to pass some of the most stringent tests, and theoretically have the most driving experience, are also the aggressive on the roads.


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## glasgowcyclist (19 Nov 2018)

User76022 said:


> ... it does seem ironic that a group of road users that have to pass some of the most stringent tests



Driving a taxi is done with an ordinary driving licence, nothing more special than that, and that can hardly be called a stringent test.


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## Ming the Merciless (19 Nov 2018)

Most taxi drivers are related to taxi dermists. Must be why they drive the way they do.


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## User76022 (19 Nov 2018)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Driving a taxi is done with an ordinary driving licence, nothing more special than that, and that can hardly be called a stringent test.


They must've changed the law then. You used to need either a private hire license or public service vehicle license. Both required frequent retests.


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## Bazzer (19 Nov 2018)

User76022 said:


> They must've changed the law then. You used to need either a private hire license or public service vehicle license. Both required frequent retests.



Certainly in Salford, where I have the most interactions with private hire drivers, (who quite frankly are sh1te) so far as I am aware, an ordinary driving licence is all that is required. Admittedly a potential applicant undergoes some assessments, but I am unaware of any of these demonstrating driving skills or competencies.


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## Fab Foodie (19 Nov 2018)

snorri said:


> Apparently the number of aggressive cyclists on our roads has reached such a level that they now feature in a list of male motorists worries.
> https://www.roadsafetysupport.co.uk/news/traffic-congestion-beats-social-media-drivers’-biggest-worry


Bless....


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## User76022 (19 Nov 2018)

I'm going to confess my lack of understanding of the law here. I've just watched a video on YouTube. At just over 2 minutes in, some cyclists are in the bus lane, as I believe they are allowed to be, when a car that has been indicating for several seconds turns into the bus lane to cross it to gain access to the petrol station. Cyclists and car driver then do an awkward sort of dance as nobody seems sure who is right, all while the self righteous motorcyclist who has just nearly ranked a cyclist criticises. 

So at 2 minutes in, who has the right of way? I genuinely am unsure. 


View: https://youtu.be/nYOz86G_oYU


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## glasgowcyclist (19 Nov 2018)

User76022 said:


> They must've changed the law then. You used to need either a private hire license or public service vehicle license. Both required frequent retests.



The private hire licence is issued by the local council after background checks to establish you are a fit and proper person to operate a taxi, it is in no way related to an assessment of the holder's driving ability.


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## User76022 (19 Nov 2018)

glasgowcyclist said:


> The private hire licence is issued by the local council after background checks to establish you are a fit and proper person to operate a taxi, it is in no way related to an assessment of the holder's driving ability.


Must've changed. Mind I'm going back a lot of years. In fact probably getting on for 40 years when I think about it. How time flies. But anyway, i remember my dad being a commercial driver, and I remember he and his fellow driver buddies used to regular talk about their annual tests. It was definitely an extra driving test, because I remember my dad joking about the stupid questions the examiner used to ask while being driven around town for half an hour.


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## Alan O (19 Nov 2018)

glasgowcyclist said:


> The private hire licence is issued by the local council after background checks to establish you are a fit and proper person to operate a taxi, it is in no way related to an assessment of the holder's driving ability.


Whether you need a driving and/or medical test in addition to the "fit and proper person" thing appears to be a local council choice...
https://www.gov.uk/taxi-driver-licence
I don't think they're needed where I am.


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## Ming the Merciless (19 Nov 2018)

User76022 said:


> I'm going to confess my lack of understanding of the law here. I've just watched a video on YouTube. At just over 2 minutes in, some cyclists are in the bus lane, as I believe they are allowed to be, when a car that has been indicating for several seconds turns into the bus lane to cross it to gain access to the petrol station. Cyclists and car driver then do an awkward sort of dance as nobody seems sure who is right, all while the self righteous motorcyclist who has just nearly ranked a cyclist criticises.
> 
> So at 2 minutes in, who has the right of way? I genuinely am unsure.
> 
> ...




What is the motorcyclist doing sitting in the bus lane?


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## User76022 (20 Nov 2018)

YukonBoy said:


> What is the motorcyclist doing sitting in the bus lane?


Dunno. He is wrong at several points. I think I might have said that earlier. We can moan about the many displays of knobbery throughout the video, but that's kind of going over old ground. What I'd be interested to know though, not for pointing the finger of self righteous blame, but to minimise the risks if ever I find myself in a similar situation, is what are the rules in the situation we see at approx 2 mins and 5 seconds in.


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## mjr (20 Nov 2018)

YukonBoy said:


> What is the motorcyclist doing sitting in the bus lane?


Bus lane appears to be marked to allow motorcycles on the signs, but it's not 100% clear on my screen (edit: there are two blobs under the bus, the left one much heavier, which I think is m/cycle cycle in Diagram 958, rather than cycle taxi on the same line, which I'd expect to appear as blob and boxy shade - the boxy shade which I think is "taxi" is below it).

As for the car turning across the lane into the filling station, motorist is wrong, failing to give way to those in the bus lane http://highwaycode.info/rule/183 but that's little comfort to anyone knocked off.

And for all his words about anticipation, the motorcyclist seems to be close passing at speed with less caution than I'd like!


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## User76022 (20 Nov 2018)

mjr said:


> As for the car turning across the lane into the filling station, motorist is wrong, failing to give way to those in the bus lane http://highwaycode.info/rule/183 but that's little comfort to anyone knocked off.


Thanks for the info. I had thought that to be the case but wasn't 100% sure.


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## mustang1 (20 Nov 2018)

Stand up and be counted? I have no choice but to stand up on our overcrowded trains.


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## mjr (20 Nov 2018)

mustang1 said:


> Stand up and be counted? I have no choice but to stand up on our overcrowded trains.


If only there was some other mode of transport besides trains and cars(!)


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## snorri (20 Nov 2018)

mustang1 said:


> Stand up and be counted? I have no choice but to stand up on our overcrowded trains.


This thread has wandered off and on topic but the call to Stand and be Counted was to cyclists on the forum whose aggressive behaviour towards motorists has led to cyclists being described as a "worry" on a league table drawn up by an obscure road safety group. 
No one in the five pages of the thread has admitted to such behaviour, which is quite astonishing as I'm sure motorists would not complain about cyclists without good reason.


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## classic33 (20 Nov 2018)

snorri said:


> This thread has wandered off and on topic but the call to Stand and be Counted was to cyclists on the forum whose aggressive behaviour towards motorists has led to cyclists being described as a "worry" on a league table drawn up by an obscure road safety group. *
> No one in the five pages of the thread has admitted to such behaviour, which is quite astonishing *as I'm sure motorists would not complain about cyclists without good reason.


I admitted to it!


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## Bazzer (21 Nov 2018)

snorri said:


> This thread has wandered off and on topic but the call to Stand and be Counted was to cyclists on the forum whose aggressive behaviour towards motorists has led to cyclists being described as a "worry" on a league table drawn up by an obscure road safety group.
> No one in the five pages of the thread has admitted to such behaviour, which is quite astonishing as I'm sure motorists would not complain about cyclists without good reason.



I am Spartacus.


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## classic33 (21 Nov 2018)

Bazzer said:


> I am Spartacus.


But will you stand up an be counted?


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## Bazzer (21 Nov 2018)

classic33 said:


> But will you stand up an be counted?



Indeed I will.


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## User76022 (25 Nov 2018)

snorri said:


> Apparently the number of aggressive cyclists on our roads has reached such a level that they now feature in a list of male motorists worries.
> https://www.roadsafetysupport.co.uk/news/traffic-congestion-beats-social-media-drivers’-biggest-worry


Have a look around this forum. Even this thread. It shouldn't take very long at all to find the prejudice and hatred that exists towards motorists. Even ones that are also cyclists. I used to wonder why people can't just get on. Then I joined this forum and read a few posts. How can anyone expect car drivers to show them any respect whatsoever when so many cyclists express such utter contempt for anyone that drives?


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## Ming the Merciless (25 Nov 2018)

User76022 said:


> Have a look around this forum. Even this thread. It shouldn't take very long at all to find the prejudice and hatred that exists towards motorists. Even ones that are also cyclists. I used to wonder why people can't just get on. Then I joined this forum and read a few posts. How can anyone expect car drivers to show them any respect whatsoever when so many cyclists express such utter contempt for anyone that drives?



Anf every thread you join or start you paint this picture of the poor motorist. Is that the sole purpose of your joining a week ago? Come on you can do better than this.


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## User76022 (25 Nov 2018)

YukonBoy said:


> Anf every thread you join or start you paint this picture of the poor motorist. Is that the sole purpose of your joining a week ago? Come on you can do better than this.


No. I was just shocked to find such hatred. Foolishly I can't seem to just ignore it. I can't seem to find an option to close my account either. If the mods would like to sort that for me, that would be great.


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## Ming the Merciless (25 Nov 2018)

User76022 said:


> No. I was just shocked to find such hatred. Foolishly I can't seem to just ignore it. I can't seem to find an option to close my account either. If the mods would like to sort that for me, that would be great.



Care to point out this hatred you see? Please do enlighten everyone. Specific posts in context please.


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## glasgowcyclist (25 Nov 2018)

Standing by for a Grade B flounce....


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## classic33 (25 Nov 2018)

anf said:


> Have a look around this forum. Even this thread. It shouldn't take very long at all to find the prejudice and hatred that exists towards motorists. Even ones that are also cyclists. I used to wonder why people can't just get on. Then I joined this forum and read a few posts. How can anyone expect car drivers to show them any respect whatsoever when so many cyclists express such utter contempt for anyone that drives?


Try a driving forum and see how cyclists are viewed by what appears to be a majority of drivers. That includes some in the heaviest vehicles that we share the roads with, as cyclists.

It can often come down to the contempt that we as cyclists are treated with on the roads. 
We don't pay Road Tax -- Nor do car owners/drivers.
We slow them down -- At times we are travelling just as fast as they are.

I don't drive, so come at this from the pedestrian & cyclist point of view. As a pedestrian who was put into A&E by a driver, whilst crossing a road on pedestrian crossing on a road he shouldn't legally have been using. He failed to stop, but the car was found later having been caught on CCTV when the incident took place. 

I've been t-boned by another driver, whilst cycling. End result was loss of the job, due to the actions of the driver. He was prevented from going too far because I was on the bonnet, driven down to the engine block by the impact force of a body hitting sheet steel.


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## boydj (25 Nov 2018)

User76022 said:


> No. I was just shocked to find such hatred. Foolishly I can't seem to just ignore it. I can't seem to find an option to close my account either. If the mods would like to sort that for me, that would be great.



What I see is a strong dislike for bad driving - not for drivers as a group. I'd guess that the number of drivers who use this forum will cover the vast majority of the members, since most adult cyclists have driving licences and most of them will drive on a regular basis, myself included. 

While some cyclists have annoying habits - which probably doesn't apply to most on here - very few cyclists bring any danger to the roads for the simple reason that the most likely people to end up hurt are these cyclists. Perhaps if you cycled a bit more on busy roads you might understand this.


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## mudsticks (25 Nov 2018)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Standing by for a Grade B flounce....



Ooooh i'm on a face-book group which does actual gradings for *"You're all rubbish - so i'm off now"* _flounces. _

Does it happen here too ??? 

That's added to my affection for the place already.

Someone then often posts the
*
" This isn't an airport - so no need to announce your departure"* meme.

But I love a quality flounce - myself 

I've got this _crazy_ idea that _maybe_ we could _all_ just _try_ being at least 30% nicerer, and more considerate to each other, every day - whether on the road, or off, - 

how do i go about launching such a scheme?? - I do drive a car too btw - but i try not to be _too much_ of an idiot about it.


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## Pat "5mph" (25 Nov 2018)

User76022 said:


> No. I was just shocked to find such hatred. Foolishly I can't seem to just ignore it. I can't seem to find an option to close my account either. If the mods would like to sort that for me, that would be great.


PM on it's way.


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## Dbt (25 Nov 2018)

Johnno260 said:


> Yup I do this when I think someone may overtake on a sharp bend or unsafe piece of road, the insults start flying pretty swiftly.


I do this too, if it means an overtaking car may push me into the gutter or there really isn’t enough room for a car and me. I don’t care if I can’t cycle as quick as they can drive, my safety is my priority.


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## snorri (27 Nov 2018)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Standing by for a Grade B flounce....


Looks like we've had it!


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## al78 (29 Nov 2018)

There is only one fleeting mention of aggressive cyclists being a worry, so hardly worth discussing. The primary concerns are aggressive driving and mobile phone use at the wheel.


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## Smokin Joe (29 Nov 2018)

al78 said:


> There is only one fleeting mention of aggressive cyclists being a worry, so hardly worth discussing. The primary concerns are aggressive driving and mobile phone use at the wheel.


Any aggressive people on the road are a pain in the backside for everyone else, whether they are driving, walking or cycling.


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