# Bike imports into UK fall to 10 year low



## Cycleops (31 Aug 2019)

But e-bikes have increased their share. Maybe it's a sign of a downturn in the economy or perhaps the market is saturated? Or are people hanging onto their bikes for longer?

https://cyclingindustry.news/first-half-bicycle-imports-into-uk-lowest-for-for-over-a-decade/


----------



## Ming the Merciless (31 Aug 2019)

You missed the obvious, our currency is weaker than recent years so UK imported bike prices are rising. That aside they shouldn't be looking to have something like the car market where you replace what you have every few years. Well made bike will last decades, with just the odd consumable to be replaced. If you don't ride that much then the chain will also last decades.

My 80's racing bike that I had till 2003 was still on its original chain, 5 speed block and chain rings. It just did daily commuting duty and short rides of no more that 30 miles or so at weekends. I had yet to discover long distance cycling back then.


----------



## DCLane (31 Aug 2019)

There's probably a wide range of reasons, including:

- We didn't win anywhere near as many cycling medals in the last Olympics
- People keeping hold of spare cash in case of Brexit issues
- Many came into cycling as the 'new golf' and then found it was harder than golf, so went back to hitting little balls
- Lots of new bike purchases and replacements need to have a significantly greater benefit that may just not be there
- e-bikes are still developing faster than other bikes: my LBS is selling a lot of these
- Import prices as @YukonBoy added just before me, making the overall cost/spec argument weaker

The second-hand market for bikes also seems to have slowed, although parts sales are good.


----------



## screenman (31 Aug 2019)

You missed the Biggie, computer games.


----------



## Shadow121 (31 Aug 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> You missed the obvious, our currency is weaker than recent years so UK imported bike prices are rising. That aside they shouldn't be looking to have something like the car market where you replace what you have every few years. Well made bike will last decades, with just the odd consumable to be replaced. If you don't ride that much then the chain will also last decades.
> 
> My 80's racing bike that I had till 2003 was still on its original chain, 5 speed block and chain rings. It just did daily commuting duty and short rides of no more that 30 miles or so at weekends. I had yet to discover long distance cycling back then.


You might as well buy a second hand car where I live as a bike, bike prices are simply
too high for what you get, and the electric bikes are outrageous for anything decent,
bike prices here in Ireland are rising at an alarming rate, just like car price fixing
has effected the market, there is no way to get motorists to leave the car at home
when they do the maths and find an electric bike will be just as expensive over time,
such as replacing batteries regularly, as they only can take so many charges before
they are useless, Some brands 1000, some brands as low as 500 cycles.
It looks like the usual suspects (importers) are getting set up to rip people off
as the pressure to get rid of the car will be put into full swing.

The economy is not in great shape either, and am quite sure most people
won’t be buying a bike when there are more pressing needs. 
Did anyone see the add on tv where some car brand are giving the equivalent of
the vat rate off the price of a new car, looks like the first shots in the battle to
keep the car on the road begins.


----------



## Crackle (31 Aug 2019)

A bike shop owner told me last year that sales had dramatically gone down and he was selling things to the same people who always rode, no one new coming through the door.

I'm definitely seeing more e-bikes though. Used by older people and commuters. I expect that trend to continue and diversify. Some of the commuter ones have definitely been tinkered with, i thought as I looked down at my Garmin as one screamed past me into a headwind, "There's no fecking way that's restricted to 15mph".


----------



## Globalti (31 Aug 2019)

Yes, I was about to chip in saying that it was the generation who played sport at school and enjoyed working up a sweat and were worried about impending middle age, who bought into the new more comfortable plastic bikes. They discovered a sport that was enjoyable and sociable and got them very fit indeed without the pettiness that dogs many established sports clubs.

The Game Boy generation are now at their physical and economic peak but maybe they don't share the concern about fitness or have much experience of amateur sport.

PCP has also made it possible to drive a powerful German saloon car. I'm convinced though that PCP is going to be the next mis-selling scandal.


----------



## Shadow121 (31 Aug 2019)

Crackle said:


> A bike shop owner told me last year that sales had dramatically gone down and he was selling things to the same people who always rode, no one new coming through the door.
> 
> I'm definitely seeing more e-bikes though. Used by older people and commuters. I expect that trend to continue and diversify. Some of the commuter ones have definitely been tinkered with, i thought as I looked down at my Garmin as one screamed past me into a headwind, "There's no fecking way that's restricted to 15mph".


I actually see more people getting into cycling on e bikes than ordinary bikes here, but even at that cycling is almost completely in the hands of the sports and health orientated mindset here, the general public are not interested at all.

I would say the electric motorbike will end up more popular than the e bike
when legislation to get rid of cars is introduced, the government will of course
gain in road tax and the insurance companies will get a new life line from them too.
I can only assume this is the reason the powers that be aren’t pushing the e bike,
there’s nothing it in for them.


----------



## Shadow121 (31 Aug 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> You missed the obvious, our currency is weaker than recent years so UK imported bike prices are rising. That aside they shouldn't be looking to have something like the car market where you replace what you have every few years. Well made bike will last decades, with just the odd consumable to be replaced. If you don't ride that much then the chain will also last decades.
> 
> My 80's racing bike that I had till 2003 was still on its original chain, 5 speed block and chain rings. It just did daily commuting duty and short rides of no more that 30 miles or so at weekends. I had yet to discover long distance cycling back then.


Totally agree, but business is about money, far cry from the old companies like Lister
Peters, Blackstone etc, whose products are running in every corner of the world @ 100
years after they were made.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (31 Aug 2019)

Globalti said:


> The Game Boy generation are now at their physical and economic peak.



I will probably drop to the Game Boy generation physical peak when I go into the care home, aged 127 years and 4 months.


----------



## screenman (31 Aug 2019)

Shadow121 said:


> Totally agree, but business is about money, far cry from the old companies like Lister
> Peters, Blackstone etc, whose products are running in every corner of the world @ 100
> years after they were made.



Are you suggesting those companies were not about making money?


----------



## Cycleops (31 Aug 2019)

Shadow121 said:


> Totally agree, but business is about money, far cry from the old companies like Lister
> Peters, Blackstone etc, whose products are running in every corner of the world @ 100
> years after they were made.


Looks like Brompton is heading that way too.


----------



## Shadow121 (31 Aug 2019)

No, saying you got an amazing product that just kept on going,
as opposed to the throw away products of today that are designed
to fail or become too expensive to fix, necessitating another purchase.


----------



## Shadow121 (31 Aug 2019)

Cycleops said:


> Looks like Brompton is heading that way too.


Sad when you see a good company giving in to make it today make it again tomorrow cash cow
mentality.


----------



## Smokin Joe (31 Aug 2019)

It's probably new hobby fatigue. They've done the sportives and they are on STRAVA but reached their physical limit and the average ride speeds are not showing the improvement they used to do. Most of them got into cycling as a performance sport on the back of the Olympic and TdF successes but never learned to ride a bike for the enjoyment of just cycling somewhere for it's own sake. Like any "New thing" which has a meteoric rise, the fall will be just as severe.


----------



## Shadow121 (31 Aug 2019)

Smokin Joe said:


> It's probably new hobby fatigue. They've done the sportives and they are on STRAVA but reached their physical limit and the average ride speeds are not showing the improvement they used to do. Most of them got into cycling as a performance sport on the back of the Olympic and TdF successes but never learned to ride a bike for the enjoyment of just cycling somewhere for it's own sake. Like any "New thing" which has a meteoric rise, the fall will be just as severe.


Agreed, these sorts don’t need a bike, never did, it was just a phase they were going through,
the only good thing about this phase was the amount of good second hand bikes available 
at very affordable prices.


----------



## Cycleops (31 Aug 2019)

We'll probably never know the sales figures for Brompton but I suspect they have held up reasonably well compared to bike sales in general. 
Brompton is not really a bike company but one of urban commuter transportation so not a fair comparison, but they are selling a premium product.


----------



## pawl (31 Aug 2019)

I have three bikes 
A Ribble unable to remember what year I bought it but was prior to them building with carbon forks.
Giant OCR aluminium Carbon fork .Nine speed Campag.Bought2003.
Planet X pro carbon bought2016

Have no plans to replace any of these bikes,

For someone new to cycling the range of bikes can be confusing.Sportive bikes gravel bikes.Endurance bikes Mountain bikes full suspension hard tail.Time trial electronic gear mechs.

The current crop of magazines in my opinion don’t help and the prices make even my eyes water.

I bought my first bike.in1955,a Dawes Clansman 3 speed Benelux gears.I used this bike for club runs Touring,Rough stuff,OK some of the climbs and descents had to be walked.

I rode my first 25 TT on this bike and did a 1hour 8 mins and won first handicap As someone on this sight says it’s about smiles per mile

Any one asking me for advice about bikes go on to Cycle Chat and get the advice of the experienced cyclists on this sight.


----------



## derrick (31 Aug 2019)

screenman said:


> You missed the Biggie, computer games.


You mean laziness.


----------



## AuroraSaab (31 Aug 2019)

I think the effect of UK Olympic success on bike sales is probably very significant. There are a lot of people with substantial disposal incomes who would think they fancied giving cycling a go and who would go straight to a new carbon bike at £1k+ rather than a £200 used bike, simply because they can afford to. There is a similar effect every time a Brit does well at Wimbledon. To some people buying a bike is like getting a new gadget. With the additional excitement of buying all the clothes and extra gear (me included).

I don't think cycling is any different to other hobbies though. People who fancy a go at photography or guitar playing will buy a £500 SLR or a Fender Strat if they can afford it, it's human nature. 

Some will stick with it, others won't, but it does mean there is less of a return market in that many people are not upgrading their bikes, because the one they have is still in the shed. I include myself in this description, as I have a 40 year old Raleigh Pursuit that has gone further on the back of a removal van than it ever went on the road - which is why I bought a used bike this time round.


----------



## AuroraSaab (31 Aug 2019)

This is an old graphic, but it gives you some idea of the effect national success has on interest in a particular sport:







I am not sure how you could turn around the decline in interest in cycling. There has never been as much choice of bikes, and so many ways to purchase a cheap bike, used or new, like Gumtree and eBay and Decathlon. For me, only having loads more cycle ways where you can cycle far more safely would make a big difference.


----------



## pjd57 (31 Aug 2019)

Maybe people are holding on to their bikes for longer and looking after them better, rather than seeing them as disposable.

I think there are more bikes on the roads and paths around Glasgow than there were a few years ago.


----------



## Shearwater Missile (31 Aug 2019)

I certainly see far more cyclists at weekends than I have ever done, so they were bought somewhere but when. As pjd57 said perhaps people just look after them better, of course you get the odd one or two that don`t. I have two bikes, one 9 years old and the other a mere 4 years. I have no inclination to replace either, why should I, if they are well looked after ? My bike prior to that was a steel framed bike which I loved until the fork broke, metal fatigue and thought that`s it. It was over 35 years old. The Olympic effect did instigate a lot of new riders, some I am sure still ride but others I dare say have since given up. Cycling is like any sport or hobby in so much as you make it what you want it to be and enjoy it.


----------



## Nebulous (31 Aug 2019)

It's a mature market. Look at what's happening with mobile phones. Lots of people needed/wanted the newest iphone. Apple kept introducing new gimmicks to persuade them to buy. Now people are still using mobiles, but not upgrading as often as they used to. Our club is in rude good health. It has a pleasing increase in female members / participation. Yet people aren't buying as many new new bikes. I feel no urge to splash cash on a bike, despite spending a fair bit on components / upgrades / clothing etc.


----------



## Cycleops (31 Aug 2019)

I guess there's some truth in that @Nebulous . Mobile phones have really gone about as far as they can do with regard to development, much like bikes so apart from the odd tweak and paint job last year's model I'd much the same as the 2020 one. Plus of course a Yorkshireman is like an Aberdonian with the generosity squeezed out . People can't see any reason to splash out so hold onto their cash and bike.


----------



## biggs682 (31 Aug 2019)

Still seeing very lightly used 2 - 3 year old machines for sale and this week i picked up a 2 yr old Voodoo Limba that had only been ridden once in that time for less than 5 miles !!


----------



## Cycleops (31 Aug 2019)

It's true I see a lot of ads for newish bikes which have hardly been used. Dont know if this a trend.


----------



## screenman (31 Aug 2019)

Shadow121 said:


> Agreed, these sorts don’t need a bike, never did, it was just a phase they were going through,
> the only good thing about this phase was the amount of good second hand bikes available
> at very affordable prices.



I disagree, there are way more benefits to your so called phase. "These sorts"


----------



## screenman (31 Aug 2019)

I would rather people try cycling and find it is not for them, rather than not trying it at all.


----------



## the_mikey (31 Aug 2019)

I would like a new bike, but it doesn't seem a good time to buy , I'm considering selling my brompton to fund a new audax frame.


----------



## Cycleops (31 Aug 2019)

the_mikey said:


> I would like a new bike, but it doesn't seem a good time to buy , I'm considering selling my brompton to fund a new audax frame.


Now that does sound sensible.


----------



## screenman (31 Aug 2019)

I am sinful, I used to water ski behind my own boat, I used to windsurf and owned several boards and sails, I used to kayak, plus loads other things. See what I am getting at.


----------



## DCBassman (31 Aug 2019)

Well, pretty soon, I suspect, the average punter who needs a bike*** will have to do what me and @SkipdiverJohn do, get something old and renovate it. SDJ maybe doesn't *need* to do this, but I do...Barring consumables and renovating the mixte, that's my lot of buying even new bits for at least another year, maybe more...

* that isn't a BSO...


----------



## Ming the Merciless (31 Aug 2019)

Maybe you can get @SkipdiverJohn to give you his cast offs?


----------



## Cycleops (31 Aug 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> Maybe you can get @SkipdiverJohn to give you his cast offs?


Hmm, dont know you could do an awful lot with them;


----------



## Shadow121 (31 Aug 2019)

biggs682 said:


> Still seeing very lightly used 2 - 3 year old machines for sale and this week i picked up a 2 yr old Voodoo Limba that had only been ridden once in that time for less than 5 miles !!


I cried all the way home Saturday week, saw a cracker of a bike in a trailer heading for the
dump, was a bank holiday weekend and roads crawling with cars so no hope of getting turned to follow it.


----------



## steveindenmark (1 Sep 2019)

[QUOTE="Cycleops, post: 5724644, member: 23409"
Brompton is not really a bike company but one of urban commuter [/QUOTE]


----------



## steveindenmark (1 Sep 2019)

Electric bikes have taken off so well in Denmark that the new big thing to steal in Copenhagen is electric bike batteries.


----------



## Smudge (1 Sep 2019)

Crankarm said:


> The increase in sale of lazE-bikes is because 1) people are frikin lazy and 2) they don't give a crap about the damage they are doing to the planet.



I agree.... I think i'll give up using my ebike for longer distances and hauling shopping home, and just go back to using my car.


----------



## BurningLegs (1 Sep 2019)

Smudge said:


> I agree.... I think i'll give up using my ebike for longer distances and hauling shopping home, and just go back to using my car.


Exactly. I think a lot of people are buying ebikes for their commute. An ebike is not a ‘zero harm’ option but clearly a dramatic improvement over a car for both fitness and environmental benefit.


----------



## Smudge (1 Sep 2019)

BurningLegs said:


> Exactly. I think a lot of people are buying ebikes for their commute. An ebike is not a ‘zero harm’ option but clearly a dramatic improvement over a car for both fitness and environmental benefit.



Yup, not to mention those that have a disability or health issues.
How dare they use something that enables them to carry on cycling.


----------



## Levo-Lon (1 Sep 2019)

Ive lost more money owning one new car in one year than ive lost buying 10 new bikes..

Half the trouble is people go to Halfords and buy a piece of junk for 200 quid.
Ride it up the road and then think fook that, shed filler.

Ebike sales would improve vastly if you could actually get the bike that's advertised.
Stock levels are terrible. Check Rutland cycles website ect to se how many are out of stock.

Another big put off is when the would be save the planet cycle convert leaves the safety of the car and suddenly realise how bad the car drivers are, how bad our roads are.
So this also puts bikes in the shed again.

My 7 mile cycle commute is nearly all cycle ways with half a mile on road.
Peterborough cycling is quite good.

Maybe infrastructure is also a big turn off


----------



## Levo-Lon (1 Sep 2019)

Smudge said:


> Yup, not to mention those that have a disability or health issues.
> How dare they use something that enables them to carry on cycling.




My wife only cycles because she has an ebike, she couldn't manage the hills or fitness anymore. 
Medicle conditions and riding with people 20 odd years younger.
She loves going out again now, instead of worrying about spoiling others ride


----------



## Ming the Merciless (1 Sep 2019)

Cycleops said:


> Hmm, dont know you could do an awful lot with them;
> 
> View attachment 482891



You say that but I bet there's rather a lot can be salvaged from that.


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (1 Sep 2019)

Shadow121 said:


> No, saying you got an amazing product that just kept on going,as opposed to the throw away products of today that are designed
> to fail or become too expensive to fix, necessitating another purchase.



You mean like the good old steel Raleighs and Dawes that I own? 



Cycleops said:


> Plus of course a Yorkshireman is like an Aberdonian with the generosity squeezed out . People can't see any reason to splash out so hold onto their cash and bike.



You just made me spill hot coffee all down my jeans laughing at that.....
I must have some Yorkshire tendencies as well, because I don't see any reason to splash out cash on new bikes either when my 20/30/40 year old bikes are still going strong. 



Cycleops said:


> It's true I see a lot of ads for newish bikes which have hardly been used. Dont know if this a trend.



Maybe it's getting even more common, but there have always been numerous well-intentioned "lose weight/get fitter" types who have gone out and bought new quality bikes - then hardly ever used them once they realised that riding can involve physical exertion. I have a '94 Raleigh Sabre MTB and a '88 Raleigh Gemini hybrid, both one previous owner and still in virtually as new time warp condition. The MTB was ridden down a canal path no more than a handful of times then put in a shed. The Gemini is Reynolds 531 and would have been expensive, yet didn't even get used enough to wear out the original Michelin World Tour tyres in 30 years! 



screenman said:


> I would rather people try cycling and find it is not for them, rather than not trying it at all.



So would I. It keeps the market flooded with hardly used secondhand bikes at bargain prices.



DCBassman said:


> Well, pretty soon, I suspect, the average punter who needs a bike*** will have to do what me and @SkipdiverJohn do, get something old and renovate it. SDJ maybe doesn't *need* to do this, but I do....



I could go out and buy any new bike I want, but 99% of what is being sold today just doesn't appeal to me at all, from the £100 suspension BSO right up to the £6k carbon roadies.
Fat frame tubes, garish decals all over the frame and wheels, and a foot of seatpost sticking out of a silly small sized frame doesn't do it for me I'm afraid. That's before you consider the rubbish engineering at both the BSO and super bike end of the market.


----------



## TheDoctor (1 Sep 2019)

Thread cleaned up.
This is not the place to argue about who needs an Ebike.
Please keep it friendly and on topic.
[/Mod hat]


----------



## Shadow121 (1 Sep 2019)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> You mean like the good old steel Raleighs and Dawes that I own?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree, good old steel bikes, had them too, wish I kept them, and you have to love the second hand super bikes
that were just too heavy for their first owner.


----------



## screenman (1 Sep 2019)

I have a nice 653 Barron from the early nineties, it has been attached to the turbo for about 6 years, it is just starting tourist though in a couple of places.


----------



## Shadow121 (1 Sep 2019)

Steel does take a bit more care, keep warmer outside the tubes, and keep
the tubes clean.


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (1 Sep 2019)

screenman said:


> I have a nice 653 Barron from the early nineties, it has been attached to the turbo for about 6 years, it is just starting tourist though in a couple of places.



What a waste running a good Reynolds steel frame on a turbo trainer. It should be put on the road, and used for real cycling. It always makes me laugh when I see adverts for Zwift etc, and it shows the rider sitting atop an expensive top of the range road bike with no back wheel. As if the light weight of all the super expensive parts makes a blind bit of difference to a gym exercise machine that isn't actually going anywhere! There's one born every minute.....


----------



## screenman (1 Sep 2019)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> What a waste running a good Reynolds steel frame on a turbo trainer. It should be put on the road, and used for real cycling. It always makes me laugh when I see adverts for Zwift etc, and it shows the rider sitting atop an expensive top of the range road bike with no back wheel. As if the light weight of all the super expensive parts makes a blind bit of difference to a gym exercise machine that isn't actually going anywhere! There's one born every minute.....



It is your money thing again, have you thought that it is a good idea to train in the exact position you race in.


----------



## fossyant (1 Sep 2019)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> What a waste running a good Reynolds steel frame on a turbo trainer...



Just so happen to have a 653 with Ultegra sat on my Zwift set up. After years of a road cyclist I've ditched road cycling due to life changing injuries caused by drivers. The bike is too good for the turbo, but it fits me. 

I have a very nice custom built for me, Columbus SLX bike with full Dura Ace 7400 that's not moved for 4 years, other than a wipe the dust off it.


----------



## Smokin Joe (1 Sep 2019)

I have a steel Raleigh (501) fixed permanently attached to a turbo.


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (1 Sep 2019)

screenman said:


> It is your money thing again, have you thought that it is a good idea to train in the exact position you race in.



I suppose it depends on how seriously you view the benefit of gym bikes! I never have and never will, equate riding a gym bike as being anything like riding a real bike on a real road surface.
To get even a rough approximation of real world conditions like gradients, you need a pretty sophisticated machine, and even that cannot recreate the effects on the human rider of different ambient temperatures and wind direction. Resistance training is not cycling.


----------



## screenman (1 Sep 2019)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> I suppose it depends on how seriously you view the benefit of gym bikes! I never have and never will, equate riding a gym bike as being anything like riding a real bike on a real road surface.
> To get even a rough approximation of real world conditions like gradients, you need a pretty sophisticated machine, and even that cannot recreate the effects on the human rider of different ambient temperatures and wind direction. Resistance training is not cycling.



Yes I suppose it does, not a racer are you so you may not appreciate the benefits.


----------



## AuroraSaab (1 Sep 2019)

Shadow121 said:


> I cried all the way home Saturday week, saw a cracker of a bike in a trailer heading for the
> dump, was a bank holiday weekend and roads crawling with cars so no hope of getting turned to follow it.



The number of times I have seen people throwing decent kids bikes away at the tip is heartbreaking, some look nearly new. You are not allowed to fish stuff out of the giant skips, which is fair enough, but I wish they had an area for bikes like they have for furniture and tv's etc.


----------



## Nebulous (1 Sep 2019)

AuroraSaab said:


> The number of times I have seen people throwing decent kids bikes away at the tip is heartbreaking, some look nearly new. You are not allowed to fish stuff out of the giant skips, which is fair enough, but I wish they had an area for bikes like they have for furniture and tv's etc.


I once put two children's bikes on Freecycle. We were messed about for days by people wanting to come and see them, wanting us to confirm sizing etc and no-one took them. Put them on eBay and got £7 for one and £37 for the other, which was a Giant, so a better recognised brand. It was interesting that it was easier to get some money than to give them away. We are on quite a busy street and have also left a bike outside with a note saying. "We no longer need this bike. Help yourself if it is any use to you." It disappeared very quickly, with a nice thank you appended to our note.


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (1 Sep 2019)

screenman said:


> not a racer are you so you may not appreciate the benefits.



That's true I'm not remotely interested in racing. Strictly non-competitive leisure and utility cycling for me. Still enjoy it most of the time though, including the DIY tinkering needed and it helps keep me in better shape than I would be if I didn't ride at all.


----------



## Blue Hills (2 Sep 2019)

Cycleops said:


> Looks like Brompton is heading that way too.


Into making disposable stuff? If so can you enlighten me cyclops? **
Am a bit out if touch in that area. My brommie from last century is still running ok.
** Trust you won't tell me to google it as one soul did on here the other day. An honest question.


----------



## Blue Hills (2 Sep 2019)

the_mikey said:


> I would like a new bike, but it doesn't seem a good time to buy , I'm considering selling my brompton to fund a new audax frame.


I'd hang on to the brommie if at all possible. You in later life or a family member may well get into it later/find a use for it - shopping, integrate it with your senior bus pass. If cash strapped, others have pointed out upthread that there are good secondhand bikes to be had.


----------



## Cycleops (2 Sep 2019)

Blue Hills said:


> Into making disposable stuff? If so can you enlighten me cyclops? **
> Am a bit out if touch in that area. My brommie from last century is still running ok.
> ** Trust you won't tell me to google it as one soul did on here the other day. An honest question.


Quite the opposite, I think @Shadow121 was talking about products being unchanged for 100 years. That's what I was referring to.


----------



## Blue Hills (2 Sep 2019)

Cycleops said:


> Quite the opposite, I think @Shadow121 was talking about products being unchanged for 100 years. That's what I was referring to.


ah ok - wrong end of stick this end - after having had a (nominally more expensive) dahon it's one of the things I value about the brommie - though they did change the frame length after mine.


----------



## All uphill (2 Sep 2019)

My personal theory (eg no evidence), for falling sales is the gap between many consumers' reasonable expectation that a bike should be usable and reliable from the day it is bought for at least a year and the patchy ability of the bicycle retailers to meet that expectation.


----------



## Mo1959 (2 Sep 2019)

All uphill said:


> My personal theory (eg no evidence), for falling sales is the gap between many consumers' reasonable expectation that a bike should be usable and reliable from the day it is bought for at least a year and the patchy ability of the bicycle retailers to meet that expectation.


Wonder if this is partly due to them getting a bit more complex with the ever increasing number of gears, etc? Not sure they seem to run for as long without maintenance.


----------



## Smokin Joe (2 Sep 2019)

We're all looking for reasons that bikes don't sell, poor retailers, wrong bike, dangerous roads etc. But it is simply that most people don't really like cycling, everyone has ridden a bike, some seriously for a few years, but after X length of time the majority lose interest and don't bother any more. Our game is a minority pursuit, the odd spike aside, so let's just rejoice in being geeks and stop trying to be crusaders for the cause.


----------



## Shearwater Missile (2 Sep 2019)

All uphill said:


> My personal theory (eg no evidence), for falling sales is the gap between many consumers' reasonable expectation that a bike should be usable and reliable from the day it is bought for at least a year and the patchy ability of the bicycle retailers to meet that expectation.


 When I was in the tv repair trade until I retired it was the same. The salesmen would sell the dream ie 60" screen tvs with the perfect picture but when it did`nt live up to expectation the customer would call the service centre for a service call thinking it was faulty, for a multitude of reasons. As an engineer it was difficult to tell a customer that is the way it is. Of course you may get an odd tv or whatever that is genuinely faulty and would be changed over without question. As I said the salesmen would sell the dream tv and did`nt wan`t to hear that it was`nt faulty.
Getting back to the topic. With any product it is driven by sales revenues albeit the latest this the latest that with the must have technology such as disc brakes etc etc. This was the same in the TV trade, remember Ceefax & Oracle and NICAM stereo sound and then widescreen tvs, just to mention three things, there are more that were introduced and of course to sell more. So basically the question is Where do we go from here ?


----------



## Dogtrousers (2 Sep 2019)

I've only just skimmed this thread so perhaps this has already been raised: Have bike imports gone down relative to other stuff?

Is it necessarily a bike-related phenomenon or something that's affecting the economy as a whole? For example, are sales of golf bats holding up? Things like the recent transformation of the Pound Sterling into the British Lira will have affected all kinds of import markets.


----------



## screenman (2 Sep 2019)

Childhood obesity is rapidly on the increase as is adult, that may give you an answer, culture has changed over many years it is unlikely to change back very fast.


----------



## the_mikey (2 Sep 2019)

Smokin Joe said:


> We're all looking for reasons that bikes don't sell, poor retailers, wrong bike, dangerous roads etc. But it is simply that most people don't really like cycling, everyone has ridden a bike, some seriously for a few years, but after X length of time the majority lose interest and don't bother any more. Our game is a minority pursuit, the odd spike aside, so let's just rejoice in being geeks and stop trying to be crusaders for the cause.




I used to cycle to get to work, but the experience wasn't encouraging, in the 90's I was riding a heavy Raleigh MTB frame three miles to work , and back again in the evening, I would often end up pushing it up hills. In 1998 I bought a car, and drove it 3 miles to work and back and didn't miss that old bike one bit. 

It was only a change of life circumstances that led me back to cycling, I found myself free to do whatever I pleased, so I bought a road bike, in 2009 road bikes seemed to be perfect, gloriously simple rim brakes, 9 speed cassette and STI shifters, I couldn't believe how simple and yet amazing this machine was, my first ride was a short ride around the block, a few weeks later I made plans to try to cycle a couple of miles and then the distance and frequency gradually increased, I was hooked! But I wonder if I would have been hooked if I had bought the wrong bike? If I was in the same situation now what would I have chosen? Would I have been put off by a salesman trying to sell me disc brakes or tubeless, or 12 speed derailleurs, or hydraulic braking, none of which I would be prepared for, or would I have bought the £99 bike from a sports shop and wondered why it was so hard to ride and struggled to understand how anyone else would do it, only to leave it in the shed and quietly forget about cycling...


----------



## Slow But Determined (2 Sep 2019)

Cycling after the Olympics / TDF success was probably a bit like all the sheep who went out and bought the Three Tenors cd after Italia 90. They probably played it once then stuck it in the glovebox.


----------



## screenman (3 Sep 2019)

Slow But Determined said:


> Cycling after the Olympics / TDF success was probably a bit like all the sheep who went out and bought the Three Tenors cd after Italia 90. They probably played it once then stuck it in the glovebox.



Cyclist who cannot seem to write a few words without insulting somebody may put some people off. Have you never tried something and found it not to your liking, what boring life you have led if you have not.


----------



## Slow But Determined (3 Sep 2019)

screenman said:


> Cyclist who cannot seem to write a few words without insulting somebody may put some people off. Have you never tried something and found it not to your liking, what boring life you have led if you have not.



Not insulting mate, perfectly true, people get swept up in a wave of excitement with a current fad. As my example pointed out doesn't just apply to buying a bike.

How many thousands of Breville Sandwich Makers are rotting away in the back of people's kitchen cupboards?


----------



## Blue Hills (3 Sep 2019)

Yes - don't know if it happens anymore, but the council tennis courts used to suddenly fill when wimbledon was on. Then within days it seemed the wonky rackets went to the back of the wardrobe. I can understand how this would happen with racing machines in particular.


----------



## screenman (3 Sep 2019)

Slow But Determined said:


> Not insulting mate, perfectly true, people get swept up in a wave of excitement with a current fad. As my example pointed out doesn't just apply to buying a bike.
> 
> How many thousands of Breville Sandwich Makers are rotting away in the back of people's kitchen cupboards?



Funny how the reader can see an insult and the writer not see one, love a cheese toasty.


----------



## vickster (3 Sep 2019)

Slow But Determined said:


> Not insulting mate, perfectly true, people get swept up in a wave of excitement with a current fad. As my example pointed out doesn't just apply to buying a bike.
> 
> How many thousands of Breville Sandwich Makers are rotting away in the back of people's kitchen cupboards?


I still use mine when I fancy a toastie 
(Although it's a Swan not Breville)


----------



## Slow But Determined (3 Sep 2019)

screenman said:


> Funny how the reader can see an insult and the writer not see one, love a cheese toasty.



Ok I give up, a totally innocuous post by me turns into a witch hunt.

Leave it with you.


----------



## Shearwater Missile (3 Sep 2019)

Slow But Determined said:


> Ok I give up, a totally innocuous post by me turns into a witch hunt.
> 
> Leave it with you.


I did play the three tenors more than once though, twice at least !


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (3 Sep 2019)

Smokin Joe said:


> it is simply that most people don't really like cycling, everyone has ridden a bike, some seriously for a few years, but after X length of time the majority lose interest and don't bother any more. Our game is a minority pursuit, the odd spike aside, so let's just rejoice in being geeks and stop trying to be crusaders for the cause.



Fundamentally, that's the bottom line. Most people see cycling as hard work, and would rather drive around in a nice air-conditioned car listening to their tunes, than slogging their guts out getting up a hill on a bike and arriving in a sweaty dishevelled state.
The cost of top spec road bikes doesn't do anything to "sell" cycling to the masses either. They just look at a £2/3/4/5k price tag and go "how much?? for a push bike? - I can get a car for less than that!!"


----------



## Blue Hills (3 Sep 2019)

I can actually understand that.

Folks do often undervalue bikes, thinking a good new one should cost no more than £137, but there are some bonkers prices for bikes that really are only for Pros.

By the bye, have never understood or liked the term "push bike" - if you are pushing you are either seriously out of condition or have the wrong gears for the job.

Not criticising you I stress skipdiver.


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (3 Sep 2019)

People see bicycles as simple machines, therefore there is no complication to them that justifies them being expensive. They are also a mature product; the dimensions that matter and the optimal geometry for each type of use, was discovered and refined decades ago. Unlike a complex product like an iPhone or new car, it costs very little in terms of development to design a bike. I could probably pen a half decent frameset on the back of an envelope, using the established rules for head/seat angles, fork offset and the various major dimensions - and it would likely ride fairly well without the need to build & test a single prototype. 

Owners of expensive bikes often point the finger at cheap bikes for putting people off cycling. It might have some truth in the case of the very worst types of BSO, but a cheap bike can still prove to be both functional and long lasting, like my old 90's Apollo MTB. It hasn't put me off cycling; in fact I cover the most miles on my least valuable and lowest quality machines because I will risk using them in situations where I wouldn't use a "good" bike..


----------



## Ming the Merciless (3 Sep 2019)

Back on topic I am rescuing imports. A recumbent frame I ordered before the latest weakening of the pound has cleared customs today. Hopefully in the next couple of days I'll be getting a phone call to say it's on the way to my house. Then I get the enjoyment of planning and beginning the build.


----------



## Smokin Joe (3 Sep 2019)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Owners of expensive bikes often point the finger at cheap bikes for putting people off cycling. It might have some truth in the case of the very worst types of BSO, but a cheap bike can still prove to be both functional and long lasting, like my old 90's Apollo MTB. It hasn't put me off cycling; in fact I cover the most miles on my least valuable and lowest quality machines because I will risk using them in situations where I wouldn't use a "good" bike..



I agree with that. Too often cyclists keep looking for excuses as to why there aren't more of us when the answer is uncomplicated and obvious.


----------



## HMS_Dave (3 Sep 2019)

No matter, manufacturers will adjust their planned obsolescence strategies accordingly...Seriously though, coming back into cycling myself my primary concern other than my unfit, overweight body wasn't cost as I realised I could even get a trike for less than £1000 (which I plan to get soon) but safety and the anti-cycling lobbyists. Its put me off for some time truth be told as I dont want to end up being twisted around the axles of an HGV. The way I've settled my mind is that I either die a miserable obesity related death or I die trying to rectify that but also have some faith. Time will ease my concerns im sure, but most people of whom cycling crosses their minds I reckon are put off by this aspect. General cycling networks surely must improve to combat this?


----------



## kingrollo (6 Sep 2019)

quality control and press fit bb's !!!!

I have been told that my 1 year old bike is creaking due poor maintenance on my part. I keep the bike clean, and do the basics lubing etc - not really an icentive to buy another high end bike. You reap what you sow.


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (6 Sep 2019)

kingrollo said:


> quality control and press fit bb's !!!!
> 
> I have been told that my 1 year old bike is creaking due poor maintenance on my part. I keep the bike clean, and do the basics lubing etc - not really an icentive to buy another high end bike. You reap what you sow.



This is why I refuse to embrace modern junk cycling technology and insist on riding steel bikes with DIY-serviceable ball bearings and quill stems. I'm happy to be called a dinosaur, but none of my BB's creak and I can keep everything running smoothly with a pot of grease and a squirt of oil. Modern road bikes are designed for cheapness of assembly by the manufacturer, not reliable long service for the owner. It's ironic that these days, a low end hybrid or MTB, will have a threaded BB and headset that will likely outlast that fitted to a high priced road bike costing 10 or even 20 times as much new!


----------



## kingrollo (7 Sep 2019)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> This is why I refuse to embrace modern junk cycling technology and insist on riding steel bikes with DIY-serviceable ball bearings and quill stems. I'm happy to be called a dinosaur, but none of my BB's creak and I can keep everything running smoothly with a pot of grease and a squirt of oil. Modern road bikes are designed for cheapness of assembly by the manufacturer, not reliable long service for the owner. It's ironic that these days, a low end hybrid or MTB, will have a threaded BB and headset that will likely outlast that fitted to a high priced road bike costing 10 or even 20 times as much new!




Yes , I feel a ppi style case maybe looming for bike manafacturers - £2.5k for a bike that creaks like hell - I am told by the manufacturer it's my fault for not greasing the BB every other weekend !!!


----------



## screenman (7 Sep 2019)

You lot sound like your dads.


----------



## screenman (7 Sep 2019)

Smokin Joe said:


> I agree with that. Too often cyclists keep looking for excuses as to why there aren't more of us when the answer is uncomplicated and obvious.



So people on expensive bakes are putting people off of buying bikes? no way have I ever seen anything like that happen.


----------



## Blue Hills (7 Sep 2019)

kingrollo said:


> quality control and press fit bb's !!!!
> 
> I have been told that my 1 year old bike is creaking due poor maintenance on my part. I keep the bike clean, and do the basics lubing etc - not really an icentive to buy another high end bike. You reap what you sow.


 Cripes that's amazing. All hail the (reassuringly) heavy UN55.
Time to minimise those imports rollo and search ebay and particularly gumtree for something that has already been dragged into the country.


----------



## Blue Hills (7 Sep 2019)

screenman said:


> You lot sound like your dads.


I realise this is a regular line of yours but you do have the option of addressing the technical issue raised by rollo. We may learn something. I might as I have no experience of press fit BBs. Do they have any advantages? Over to you.


----------



## pawl (7 Sep 2019)

Slow But Determined said:


> Not insulting mate, perfectly true, people get swept up in a wave of excitement with a current fad. As my example pointed out doesn't just apply to buying a bike.
> 
> How many thousands of Breville Sandwich Makers are rotting away in the back of people's kitchen cupboards?




Probably in the same cupboard as the bread maker and the soda stream.9


----------



## screenman (7 Sep 2019)

Blue Hills said:


> I realise this is a regular line of yours but you do have the option of addressing the technical issue raised by rollo. We may learn something. I might as I have no experience of press fit BBs. Do they have any advantages? Over to you.



Well to be honest I have never had a problem with any of the 3 bikes that have press fit, despite using the jet wash on them, old style used to wear out faster in my humble.


----------



## Dogtrousers (7 Sep 2019)

screenman said:


> Well to be honest I have never had a problem with any of the 3 bikes that have press fit, despite using the jet wash on them, old style used to wear out faster in my humble.


Wow, do you have no shame? Press fit BB *and* jetwash. You bring shame upon yourself


----------



## Slow But Determined (7 Sep 2019)

pawl said:


> Probably in the same cupboard as the bread maker and the soda stream.9



Yes reminds me a lot of when the wife's parents died and we cleared their house. Her old man could not resist a gadget, usually from one of them advertising magazines that came with the Sunday papers, a sort of down-market JML.

Most of the gadgets / latest must haves looked as if they had been experimented with once then chucked in a draw.


----------



## screenman (7 Sep 2019)

pawl said:


> Probably in the same cupboard as the bread maker and the soda stream.9



Bread makers are great, ours get used. Better to have tried something's in life a found them not too your liking than go through life wondering.


----------



## kingrollo (7 Sep 2019)

screenman said:


> Well to be honest I have never had a problem with any of the 3 bikes that have press fit, despite using the jet wash on them, old style used to wear out faster in my humble.



That's why I think mine is defective. I clean and lube the bike regularly - but I don't dismantle the thing every few and grease all the contact points - if you need to do that IMO you are sticking a plaster on a faulty bike.

You've got a non faulty one - I've got a dud. !!!


----------



## Shearwater Missile (7 Sep 2019)

kingrollo said:


> That's why I think mine is defective. I clean and lube the bike regularly - but I don't dismantle the thing every few and grease all the contact points - if you need to do that IMO you are sticking a plaster on a faulty bike.
> 
> You've got a non faulty one - I've got a dud. !!!


It has to be fit for purpose and is expected to last a reasonable amount of time. Now before anyone shoots me down, I know it is hard to define what is reasonable but I am sure that Martin Lewis would agree on that one. The onus has to be on the shop really to prove that it is faulty, unless someone says otherwise. We should not have to put up with faulty goods what ever they are. Sometimes you just get the odd one, sometimes perhaps a batch problem. You only wish that the manufacturers would come clean if there is a problem. Good luck anyway.


----------



## HMS_Dave (7 Sep 2019)

Shearwater Missile said:


> It has to be fit for purpose and is expected to last a reasonable amount of time. Now before anyone shoots me down, I know it is hard to define what is reasonable but I am sure that Martin Lewis would agree on that one. The onus has to be on the shop really to prove that it is faulty, unless someone says otherwise. We should not have to put up with faulty goods what ever they are. Sometimes you just get the odd one, sometimes perhaps a batch problem. You only wish that the manufacturers would come clean if there is a problem. Good luck anyway.



This is why disputes are often difficult and expensive to solve. Generally we rely on good faith all round to solve any issues as that is the best course all parties. But unfortunately, many choose the difficult route. If the shop wants no part in it then you have to decide whether to pursue matters further. Often just the threat of action can shake the tree enough but more often than not you could end up in a lengthy potentially costly dispute with no guarantee of success.


----------



## Shadow121 (7 Sep 2019)

pawl said:


> Probably in the same cupboard as the bread maker and the soda stream.9


And the pram marked urgent delivered as a wedding present.


----------



## Shadow121 (7 Sep 2019)

Shearwater Missile said:


> It has to be fit for purpose and is expected to last a reasonable amount of time. Now before anyone shoots me down, I know it is hard to define what is reasonable but I am sure that Martin Lewis would agree on that one. The onus has to be on the shop really to prove that it is faulty, unless someone says otherwise. We should not have to put up with faulty goods what ever they are. Sometimes you just get the odd one, sometimes perhaps a batch problem. You only wish that the manufacturers would come clean if there is a problem. Good luck anyway.


Modern society seems to take a lot of rubbish not fit for purpose,
the manufacturers get away with way too much, press fit is a cheaper
option to manufacture, that’s why they do it, if they had to make the press fit
to a high enough tolerance that would guarantee less problems with creaking,
then it would be easier to go back to threaded bb types, because the same amount
of tolerance that would make a press fit bb creak would have no effect on a threaded bb.

It’s all about the money saved doing it wrong instead of right.


----------



## Blue Hills (7 Sep 2019)

Is that the reason for them then shadow? For I did ask screennan, who raged against dads, what the advantages of them were.
But noted that he didn't answer the question.


----------



## Paulus (7 Sep 2019)

Back to the thread title,
I think the downturn in sales is partly due to the actual amount of people who have come into cycling over the last ten to fifteen years has now plateaued, and those who have bought low or high end bikes are keeping them and maintaining them, either themselves or at bike shops. There are a finite amount of new people who want to cycle each year, and this has been reached. There has been a meteoric rise in cycling, but that rise will inevitably come to an end. This is not to say that bike sales will stop, but not continue at the rate it has been. 
There are lots of cyclists around my way, particularly an increase in women riding dutch/ Miss Marple style bikes doing the shopping at the local shops. I find this encouraging.


----------



## kingrollo (7 Sep 2019)

HMS_Dave said:


> This is why disputes are often difficult and expensive to solve. Generally we rely on good faith all round to solve any issues as that is the best course all parties. But unfortunately, many choose the difficult route. If the shop wants no part in it then you have to decide whether to pursue matters further. Often just the threat of action can shake the tree enough but more often than not you could end up in a lengthy potentially costly dispute with no guarantee of success.




Its not just the shop - the manufacturer s of the bike are adamant there is no problem and has said it creaks "because I am an idiot"
Finally I got a shop to say it could possibly be a frame fault. The manafacturer then got in touch with shop - don't know what was said but the shop then denied saying it was a frame fault.
My plan is to ride the bike at a lot of busy events when someone says " your bikes making a racket" I will say " no all carbon bikes are like that per the name on the side of my bike"


----------



## Smokin Joe (7 Sep 2019)

Paulus said:


> Back to the thread title,
> I think the downturn in sales is partly due to the actual amount of people who have come into cycling over the last ten to fifteen years has now plateaued, and those who have bought low or high end bikes are keeping them and maintaining them, either themselves or at bike shops. There are a finite amount of new people who want to cycle each year, and this has been reached. There has been a meteoric rise in cycling, but that rise will inevitably come to an end. This is not to say that bike sales will stop, but not continue at the rate it has been.
> There are lots of cyclists around my way, particularly an increase in women riding dutch/ Miss Marple style bikes doing the shopping at the local shops. I find this encouraging.


The boom in cycling has been largely down to the middle aged well heeled. That forms by far the largest demographic you see out on "Serious" bikes and wearing all the kit. The percentage of youngsters into cycling is tiny in comparison so when the older ones get fed up or grow too old there will be few coming through to take their place. The whole thing mirrors the motorcycle boom of the mid nineties which lasted for around fifteen years and then collapsed, taking a huge number of retailers with them. And the age demographic was exactly the same.


----------



## screenman (7 Sep 2019)

Blue Hills said:


> Is that the reason for them then shadow? For I did ask screennan, who raged against dads, what the advantages of them were.
> But noted that he didn't answer the question.



Good reason for that, in truth never having had a problem I have never needed to give it any thought. The dad's thing was a bit tongue in cheek, but you got too admit it holds a little truth.


----------



## screenman (7 Sep 2019)

Smokin Joe said:


> The boom in cycling has been largely down to the middle aged well heeled. That forms by far the largest demographic you see out on "Serious" bikes and wearing all the kit. The percentage of youngsters into cycling is tiny in comparison so when the older ones get fed up or grow too old there will be few coming through to take their place. The whole thing mirrors the motorcycle boom of the mid nineties which lasted for around fifteen years and then collapsed, taking a huge number of retailers with them. And the age demographic was exactly the same.



I am surprised at that, I agree some middle aged guys come back to cycling but never would have thought that made that much difference to bike sales overall. Obesity is another reason, obese parents are unfortunately encouraging the same in their children, very few obese people ride bikes, sadly.


----------



## Smokin Joe (7 Sep 2019)

screenman said:


> I am surprised at that, I agree some middle aged guys come back to cycling but never would have thought that made that much difference to bike sales overall. Obesity is another reason, obese parents are unfortunately encouraging the same in their children, very few obese people ride bikes, sadly.


If you look at those you see out and about that seems to be the case. They have the money to splash out 2k or more on a bike plus all the kit that goes with it.

I don't know how overweight you have to be to qualify as obese, but ride a sportive and at least half the field will be "Generously proportioned". Taking up cycling will have very little impact on a persons weight, that is nearly all done to what is shoved down the throat. Only a small amount of fat is shed through exercise. Even pro cyclists who ride considerably further and harder than the rest of us have to starve themselves if the want to get up the mountains quickly.


----------



## screenman (7 Sep 2019)

Smokin Joe said:


> If you look at those you see out and about that seems to be the case. They have the money to splash out 2k or more on a bike plus all the kit that goes with it.
> 
> I don't know how overweight you have to be to qualify as obese, but ride a sportive and at least half the field will be "Generously proportioned". Taking up cycling will have very little impact on a persons weight, that is nearly all done to what is shoved down the throat. Only a small amount of fat is shed through exercise. Even pro cyclists who ride considerably further and harder than the rest of us have to starve themselves if the want to get up the mountains quickly.



The average price of a bike sold in the UK is less than £250, so you can see why I doubted the impact of the middle ages cyclist. Yes you will see larger people on bikes, but obesity is on the increase and generally obese people are not as active as less obese people. Also Sportive riders make up a very small percentage of bike owners in the UK.


----------



## Blue Hills (7 Sep 2019)

Smokin Joe said:


> I but ride a sportive and at least half the field will be "Generously proportioned"..




Yep a fair few of those around - the ones that make me smile are the ones around town - generously proportioned, suffering with a backpack in case a fashion policeman pulls them over to weigh the superlight bike hidden under them.


----------



## screenman (7 Sep 2019)

Blue Hills said:


> Yep a fair few of those around - the ones that make me smile are the ones around town - generously proportioned, suffering with a backpack in case a fashion policeman pulls them over to weigh the superlight bike hidden under them.



So a cyclist laughing at another cyclist for not obeying his rules, and we wonder why less people are taking it up. Why should a heavy person not ride a nice light bike, I would love to know.


----------



## Smokin Joe (7 Sep 2019)

screenman said:


> The average price of a bike sold in the UK is less than £250, so you can see why I doubted the impact of the middle ages cyclist. Yes you will see larger people on bikes, but obesity is on the increase and generally obese people are not as active as less obese people. Also Sportive riders make up a very small percentage of bike owners in the UK.


But the boom is not in the sub £250 end of the market, people who buy those bikes are almost all casual riders with little interest in cycling. The big upsurge in cycling is at the performance end of the market.

Sportive riders do indeed make up a small percentage of cyclists, but they are all committed riders who have trained for the distance and if many or most of them are overweight then it shows how little exercise matters in terms of weight loss. Ride hard for 100 miles and some weight will come off, but stop for a double cheeseburger and fries on the way home and many times more of that will go back on.

I'm afraid I'm a cynic when it comes to "Booms", whether it is in cycling or anything else. They are fashion led and they die as suddenly as they start.


----------



## screenman (7 Sep 2019)

My point being it is the average bikes that make up the numbers, if it was the more expensive then the average would be higher.


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (7 Sep 2019)

screenman said:


> My point being it is the average bikes that make up the numbers, if it was the more expensive then the average would be higher.



There's a substantial chunk of the market that only buys £100-150 bikes, not bikes costing £250. A lot of the real low-end bikes will get ridden very few miles, compared with the "serious" MAMIL brigade who tend to use their bikes more and therefore are a more visible presence on the roads.


----------



## pawl (7 Sep 2019)

I was in York last November and was suprised at the numbers commuting by bike. York appeared to me during my short visit to be a cycle friendly city.I don’t have much experience of city cycling but it appears that If sensibly infrastructure is provided people will use the bike not only as a leisure pastime but as a means of commuting .

I tried cycling into Leicester some time ago got to the Fosse park area and changed my mind . It scared me to death on that enormous traffic island


----------



## screenman (7 Sep 2019)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> There's a substantial chunk of the market that only buys £100-150 bikes, not bikes costing £250. A lot of the real low-end bikes will get ridden very few miles, compared with the "serious" MAMIL brigade who tend to use their bikes more and therefore are a more visible presence on the roads.



We are talking about fewer number of bikes sold in UK, mamils make very little difference.


----------



## Shadow121 (7 Sep 2019)

Blue Hills said:


> Is that the reason for them then shadow? For I did ask screennan, who raged against dads, what the advantages of them were.
> But noted that he didn't answer the question.


They say they are lighter, I say they could make a threaded one of similar weight
using Aluminium where they could, or titanium, but even a steel one will at least
be solid and you won’t loose any input due to flexing / creaking.


----------



## Smokin Joe (7 Sep 2019)

screenman said:


> We are talking about fewer number of bikes sold in UK, mamils make very little difference.


But they make a lucrative business as far as the industry is concerned, £150 bikes do few miles, get nothing spent on them in the way of parts, accessories or clothing. One committed enthusiast will outspend the casual cyclist a hundred times over and when they disappear the trade will take a massive hit.


----------



## screenman (7 Sep 2019)

Smokin Joe said:


> But they make a lucrative business as far as the industry is concerned, £150 bikes do few miles, get nothing spent on them in the way of parts, accessories or clothing. One committed enthusiast will outspend the casual cyclist a hundred times over and when they disappear the trade will take a massive hit.



I agree, but the percentage is very small.


----------



## Shadow121 (7 Sep 2019)

Nearly all the bikes I see on the roads here are expensive ones, children
of non cyclists are the only ones who have the cheap bikes, thus I rarely see
a cheap bike that did not start life as an expensive one.


----------



## AuroraSaab (7 Sep 2019)

I would be interested to know what percentage of bike sales are kids bikes. Every child I know had a bike when my kids were younger, but like mine didn't carry on cycling after about 10 or 11. If these are included in the stats it would bring the average price spent on a bike down quite a bit. 

Most kids still get at least one or two bikes during their childhood, and if those purchases aren't dropping, then the drop in sales must be in the sales of adult bikes.


----------



## Blue Hills (8 Sep 2019)

Shadow121 said:


> They say they are lighter, I say they could make a threaded one of similar weight
> using Aluminium where they could, or titanium, but even a steel one will at least
> be solid and you won’t loose any input due to flexing / creaking.


I like solid


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (8 Sep 2019)

AuroraSaab said:


> I would be interested to know what percentage of bike sales are kids bikes.
> Most kids still get at least one or two bikes during their childhood, and if those purchases aren't dropping, then the drop in sales must be in the sales of adult bikes.



The percentage of kids bikes has got to be pretty high. For a start, kids grow out of their bikes, which limits their useful life before they become hand-me-downs or end up in the scrap. That isn't the same for adult bikes, and once you have got one that fits you well, it could be made to last a lifetime.


----------



## Shadow121 (8 Sep 2019)

Children here are glued to iPhones, very few bikes in their yard, except for the
ones who can’t afford or are not allowed phones, and that’s a small number.

Every trip to the doctors amazes me, wall to wall woman and children
staring at their phones, the zombie apocalypse has arrived, it’s just in a
different format than we expected, phone in one hand, neck bent with
eyes locked on to a screen as they limp their way around obstacles / navigate.


----------



## screenman (8 Sep 2019)

Shadow121 said:


> Nearly all the bikes I see on the roads here are expensive ones, children
> of non cyclists are the only ones who have the cheap bikes, thus I rarely see
> a cheap bike that did not start life as an expensive one.



Maybe you live in a more affluent area, seldom see anybody ride an expensive bike to work or school etc in this area.


----------



## Shadow121 (8 Sep 2019)

screenman said:


> Maybe you live in a more affluent area, seldom see anybody ride an expensive bike to work or school etc in this area.


Not too many ride any kind bike to work here, it’s mainly sportier people
who are health conscious, and they do have expensive bikes.

The rest of us are not well off, but it’s the same mindset that are on the bikes,
the rest are on iPhones.


----------



## screenman (8 Sep 2019)

Shadow121 said:


> Not too many ride any kind bike to work here, it’s mainly sportier people
> who are health conscious, and they do have expensive bikes.
> 
> The rest of us are not well off, but it’s the same mindset that are on the bikes,
> the rest are on iPhones.



but as we can see but the average price of bikes sold, the top end makes little difference. Out of interest what area are you and how the hell do you get to see how expensive the bikes are, I have cycled or driven past maybe a hundred+ bikes today without knowing what they are worth.


----------



## Shadow121 (8 Sep 2019)

screenman said:


> but as we can see but the average price of bikes sold, the top end makes little difference. Out of interest what area are you and how the hell do you get to see how expensive the bikes are, I have cycled or driven past maybe a hundred+ bikes today without knowing what they are worth.


Well I get to price a lot of what I can’t afford, a lot of bragging goes on too.


----------



## screenman (8 Sep 2019)

Shadow121 said:


> Well I get to price a lot of what I can’t afford, a lot of bragging goes on too.



What percentage of bikes out there do you think are expensive one's, what is expensive? How do you mean you get to price them.


----------



## Shadow121 (8 Sep 2019)

screenman said:


> What percentage of bikes out there do you think are expensive one's, what is expensive? How do you mean you get to price them.


Well am only reporting what I see as I pass the day, can’t afford to set up a poll to
give exact figures, and expensive means just that, your looking for information no ordinary
person possesses, my comments are only based on what I see, beyond that, I can’t help you.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (8 Sep 2019)

We have an obese rider who has started riding our CTC social evening rides. Yes he has the lightweight carbon bike, yes he has a wheel with low spoke counts, yes his wheel was out of true first time he came. The wheel went the other week, and needed repairing. But do you know what he's good company, loved seeing my recumbent last week and he's out riding. You can only be welcoming to new riders you encounter. Be wary of offering advice unbidden, an easy way to put someone off. If something becomes a problem I am sure they'll welcome advice from someone who has been friendly and welcoming to them.


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (8 Sep 2019)

screenman said:


> What percentage of bikes out there do you think are expensive one's, what is expensive? How do you mean you get to price them.



Most people would probably consider something as expensive if it is outstandingly more costly than a utilitarian benchmark, therefore does not appear to represent good value for money.
For example, I could buy a perfectly practical 1 litre new car as a runabout and have change left over from £10k. If someone tries to convince me to pay £20k for a different model of 1 litre car that is going to do exactly the same job, I am going to consider it expensive for what it is. More price without much, if any, more functionality.


----------



## Dogtrousers (8 Sep 2019)

screenman said:


> but as we can see but the average price of bikes sold, the top end makes little difference. Out of interest what area are you and how the hell do you get to see how expensive the bikes are, I have cycled or driven past maybe a hundred+ bikes today without knowing what they are worth.


A good point. I see someone riding on a road bike, I generally don't know - or indeed care - if it's a £300 Halfords or Decathlon Claris bike or a £2.5k fancy DI2 job. 

To price something takes a. market knowledge and b. close examination, which requires you to be a. well informed and b. a bit weird.


----------



## Blue Hills (9 Sep 2019)

screenman said:


> So a cyclist laughing at another cyclist for not obeying his rules, and we wonder why less people are taking it up. Why should a heavy person not ride a nice light bike, I would love to know.


Loosen up and see where my comment came from in the thread.
Am not trying to discourage anyone from cycling at all - hell i have lead loads of open access rides for a london cycling group where all sorts of folks, experienced cyclists and not, dressed in all sorts of ways (one guy on a london brighton ride i lead turned up in flipflops and made it fine) on all sorts of bikes. All welcomed. But i reserve the right to smile at fashion victims, entirely reasonable.
The dangers of momentary fashion for bike sales and continued cycling are also one of the themes of this thread. So loosen up, ride your bike.


----------



## Shadow121 (9 Sep 2019)

Blue Hills said:


> Loosen up and see where my comment came from in the thread.
> Am not trying to discourage anyone from cycling at all - hell i have lead loads of open access rides for a london cycling group where all sorts of folks, experienced cyclists and not, dressed in all sorts of ways (one guy on a london brighton ride i lead turned up in flipflops and made it fine) on all sorts of bikes. All welcomed. But i reserve the right to smile at fashion victims, entirely reasonable.
> The dangers of momentary fashion for bike sales and continued cycling are also one of the themes of this thread. So loosen up, ride your bike.


I smile too, every time I see the guys in the field below me, with up to 5
very costly modern tractors burning hundreds of gallons of diesel, when the last
owner of the land spent less time with his 37 hp tractor planting and saving the same crop,
these guys even turned up in the pouring rain Three days ago and put out fertiliser.


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (9 Sep 2019)

Shadow121 said:


> I smile too, every time I see the guys in the field below me, with up to 5 very costly modern tractors burning hundreds of gallons of diesel, when the last owner of the land spent less time with his 37 hp tractor planting and saving the same crop, these guys even turned up in the pouring rain Three days ago and put out fertiliser.



The well-worn phrase "all the gear, no idea" applies to pretty much every walk of life and every trade. You need a certain level of aptitude to successfully do anything, regardless whether your kit is old and ratty or new and shiny. Splashing the cash on new gear doesn't miraculously turn a clueless person into a competent one.


----------

