# What old cycling technology etc would you like to see return?



## davidphilips (16 May 2021)

With new technology replacing old, list is almost endless what would you like to see a return of?

My first choice has to be a return of head badges, no function value but a nice bit of bling.


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## Slick (16 May 2021)

Maybe not Litespeed being but my Genesis does still come with a head badge.


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## Drago (16 May 2021)

Metal crank linkages instead of chains.


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## gavroche (16 May 2021)

None, new technology means improvement on the old.


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## purpan (16 May 2021)

Downtube shifters. Much more elegant and hardly difficult to use.


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## Justified_Sinner (16 May 2021)

davidphilips said:


> My first choice has to be a return of head badges, no function value but a nice bit of bling.



Think of the grams!


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## biggs682 (16 May 2021)

Woolen cycling jerseys


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## Justified_Sinner (16 May 2021)

biggs682 said:


> Woolen cycling jerseys



OH YES!
I have a Vulpine modern Merino jersey and it is lovely.


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## rogerzilla (16 May 2021)

Internally-geared hubs on kids' bikes.

Saddlebag loops on saddles.

9 speed in better groupsets - it is the sweet spot between "not close enough gears" and "too fussy and expensive".

Triple chainsets.

Horizontal dropouts on lightweight frames (and decent QRs).

Rigid MTBs.

Straight bars on MTBs - riser bars are a joke.


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## bladesman73 (16 May 2021)

purpan said:


> Downtube shifters. Much more elegant and hardly difficult to use.


I have an 80s steel dawes racer with downtube shifters, I love them more than my 105 shifters on my new carbon bike. So easy to use and fine tune, plus it stops me changing gear everytime the terrain goes up or down by 0.001%


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## GuyBoden (16 May 2021)

Grease ports on hubs and BB.


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## GuyBoden (16 May 2021)

5 speed chains and sprockets lasted much longer.


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## GuyBoden (16 May 2021)

The longer frame pumps and their connectors brazed onto frames.


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## GuyBoden (16 May 2021)

purpan said:


> Downtube shifters. Much more elegant and hardly difficult to use.


For true downtube friction shifters, only the rachet type seem to be the longest lasting, Suntour power shifter or Simplex Retrofriction seem to be good, the other makes seem to wear and don't hold in place over 50+ years. 

Indexed downtube shifters are modern, different and slightly more complex.


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## avecReynolds531 (16 May 2021)

Lugged frames with standard 1" - 1/8" - 1/8" dimensions and horizontal top tubes.


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## GuyBoden (16 May 2021)

gavroche said:


> None, new technology means improvement on the old.


Clearly, not always true.


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## avecReynolds531 (16 May 2021)

That Suntour had been rewarded for their fair business practices and brilliant products... and didn't go bust:

_'In 1975, SunTour introduced the Cyclone derailleur, which was a lighter, polished version of the SunTour V. SunTour's policy was to add a markup to production cost to set a "fair" price. They did not charge what the traffic would bear. In 1975, a Cyclone cost $16.00, a Campagnolo Nuovo Record or a Huret Jubilee cost $40.00 and a Shimano Crane cost $20.00. The Nuovo Record and Crane both weighed about 200 grams and the Jubilee weighed 140 grams. The Cyclone weighed 175 grams and it shifted best.

The result of SunTour's pricing policy was that their top derailleurs were specified for medium-priced bicycles, while their competitor's top derailleurs were found on top-of-the-line bicycles. With 20-20 hindsight, SunTour should have charged more for their top lines and invested more on research and development. SunTour never had more than twenty people working on research and development and this was simply not enough to design and develop and test new products for the 1980s marketplace.'*_

*Courtesy of Frank J. Berto - 'Sunset for Suntour'


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## fossyant (16 May 2021)

purpan said:


> Downtube shifters. Much more elegant and hardly difficult to use.



Seconded. Got Indexed downtube shifters on both road bikes, excellent.


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## fossyant (16 May 2021)

GuyBoden said:


> For true downtube friction shifters, only the rachet type seem to be the longest lasting, Suntour power shifter or Simplex Retrofriction seem to be good, the other makes seem to wear and don't hold in place over 50+ years.
> 
> Indexed downtube shifters are modern, different and slightly more complex.



My Dura Ace DT indexed shifters are 30 years old.


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## Ming the Merciless (16 May 2021)

rogerzilla said:


> 9 speed in better groupsets - it is the sweet spot between "not close enough gears" and "too fussy and expensive".
> 
> Triple chainsets.



I run 9 speed xtr triple on my recumbent. Admittedly it isn’t available as new these days.


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## Ming the Merciless (16 May 2021)

GuyBoden said:


> The longer frame pumps and their connectors brazed onto frames.



I have a pump peg and frame fit pump on my recumbent.


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## Ming the Merciless (16 May 2021)

fossyant said:


> Seconded. Got Indexed downtube shifters on both road bikes, excellent.



I have bar end shifters but run both front and rear on friction for 9 speed rear.


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## Blue Hills (16 May 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> I have a pump peg and frame fit pump on my recumbent.


my recent Ridgeback Expedition came with a long pump and pegs as well - but I prefer my Topeak Morphs.


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## Ming the Merciless (16 May 2021)

I’d like to see the utility roadster return to the mainstream in the UK.


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## Ming the Merciless (16 May 2021)

Blue Hills said:


> my recent Ridgeback Expedition came with a long pump and pegs as well - but I prefer my Topeak Morphs.



Because?


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## PeteXXX (16 May 2021)

A kickstand so I don't have to find a kerb or hedge to lean my bike against when I stop for a Jimmy riddle.


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## Blue Hills (16 May 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Because?


Personally find them easier to use - I like the mini track-pump design - no chance of weak-armed cack-handed me tearing a valve. Just personal.
(I'd also worry about a frame mounted pump being nicked from a parked tourer - and a bit big to carry around - not a problem on a dayride bike of course)


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## Ming the Merciless (16 May 2021)

Blue Hills said:


> Personally find them easier to use - I like the mini track-pump design - no chance of weak-armed cack-handed me tearing a valve. Just personal.
> (I'd also worry about a frame mounted pump being nicked from a parked tourer - and a bit big to carry around - not a problem on a dayride bike of course)



You can get frame fit with a flexible hose. Old school style.


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## davidphilips (16 May 2021)

Lugged frames, avecReynolds531, Even better than my choice of head badges for a nice looking bike.


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## All uphill (16 May 2021)

bladesman73 said:


> I have an 80s steel dawes racer with downtube shifters, I love them more than my 105 shifters on my new carbon bike. So easy to use and fine tune, plus it stops me changing gear everytime the terrain goes up or down by 0.001%


Bar end shifters for me, please!


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## battered (16 May 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> I’d like to see the utility roadster return to the mainstream in the UK.


I think it will, as an e-bike.


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## MichaelW2 (16 May 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> I run 9 speed xtr triple on my recumbent. Admittedly it isn’t available as new these days.


9 speed was an interim solution as the sprocket race got started. 8 speed was a universal standard for decades , worked at every groupset level and was available in every bike shop.


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## Blue Hills (16 May 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> You can get frame fit with a flexible hose. Old school style.


yes i know - still wouldn't trust myself.


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## Drago (16 May 2021)

gavroche said:


> None, new technology means improvement on the old.


Cough. Rapid rise. Cough. Elastomer suspension. Cough. Non floating rear suspension. Cough. 29'er MTB's. Cough. Indicators. Cough. ISIS. Cough. 

None are necessarily a bad thing (other than indicators) but none represent an automatic improvement upon that which went before, and those that do bring an improvement in one area often bring serious shortcomings in others, such as external bearing BB's.


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## Blue Hills (16 May 2021)

MichaelW2 said:


> 9 speed was an interim solution as the sorocket race got started.


An interim I'm stopping at - built up another 9 speed just a few weeks ago - nice new XT rear mech (admittedly discontinued) - don't think I'll have any problems keeping my 9 speeds running. 9 speed has one advantage over 8 for tourers - a nice 12-36 rear cassette at a reasonable price to make the 1x ers weep.

edited for typos.


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## Eric Olthwaite (16 May 2021)

Horizontal top tubes
Quill stems


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## SkipdiverJohn (16 May 2021)

Suicide levers for drop bars. Very useful when pootling around.


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## Ming the Merciless (16 May 2021)

MichaelW2 said:


> 9 speed was an interim solution as the sprocket race got started. 8 speed was a universal standard for decades , worked at every groupset level and was available in every bike shop.



Not really decades, more like a single decade. 5 speed was alive and common in the 80s. 9 speed arrived by end of 90s.


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## Ming the Merciless (16 May 2021)

battered said:


> I think it will, as an e-bike.



Unnecessary complication. Keep it simple, keep it maintenance free


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## SkipdiverJohn (16 May 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> I’d like to see the utility roadster return to the mainstream in the UK.



So would I, preferably with a nice lightweight quality double butted steel frame and alloy rims. That way I wouldnt be forced to build my own from a 531 touring frame!



battered said:


> I think it will, as an e-bike.



Most utility e-bikes I see are way too heavy and lardy. Big thick frames, suspension forks, fat heavy tyres. The assistance is used as an excuse to let weight control go out of the window.


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## purpan (16 May 2021)

I’m in two minds about bar end shifters. I have them on an old Galaxy, but there’s a sticky-out inelegance about them that you don’t get with diwntube shifters.


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## avecReynolds531 (16 May 2021)

...Seeing decals like these again...


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## Teamfixed (16 May 2021)

These 9 speed Dura Ace work brilliantly, so precise.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (16 May 2021)

Rim brakes


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## rogerzilla (16 May 2021)

MichaelW2 said:


> 9 speed was an interim solution as the sprocket race got started. 8 speed was a universal standard for decades , worked at every groupset level and was available in every bike shop.


105 was only 8 speed for five years, so quite short-lived, really. It was 9 speed for nine years.

10 speed jumped the shark for the long-standard Shimano cable pull ratio, and was less reliable when dirty. 11 speed broke the standard and increased the pull ratio, so works better than 10 speed, but gives you a more expensive and fussy chain for a couple of extra sprockets you won't use.


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## Low Gear Guy (16 May 2021)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Suicide levers for drop bars. Very useful when pootling around.


Hmmm. Why exactly were they called suicide levers?


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## battered (16 May 2021)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> So would I, preferably with a nice lightweight quality double butted steel frame and alloy rims. That way I wouldnt be forced to build my own from a 531 touring frame!
> 
> 
> 
> Most utility e-bikes I see are way too heavy and lardy. Big thick frames, suspension forks, fat heavy tyres. The assistance is used as an excuse to let weight control go out of the window.


Heavy and lardy are what e bike customers want. What they don't want is pedal it yourself. Will it do 10mph in town, with minimal effort on my part? Good enough.


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## battered (16 May 2021)

purpan said:


> I’m in two minds about bar end shifters. I have them on an old Galaxy, but there’s a sticky-out inelegance about them that you don’t get with diwntube shifters.


I don't like downtube shifters. They're in the wrong place. You don't put a car's gearshift behind the passenger seat, after all. Years ago I had a 10 speed bike with the shifters moved to the stem. I never knew why they weren't more popular. They were very close to being thumbies before thumbies were invented.


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## GuyBoden (16 May 2021)

More heavy durable components, most cyclists don't need light weight components, we're not in the TdF.

I prefer old stove enamelled painted frames, not this thin modern paint that so easily scratches.

Too much Seat post showing on modern bikes needs addressing, too much seatpost puts unnecessary stress onto the frame.


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## GuyBoden (16 May 2021)

battered said:


> I don't like downtube shifters. They're in the wrong place. You don't put a car's gearshift behind the passenger seat, after all. Years ago I had a 10 speed bike with the shifters moved to the stem. I never knew why they weren't more popular. They were very close to being thumbies before thumbies were invented.


Apparently, they stuck into your chest when you braked suddenly and were propelled forward.

Bar ends can hit your knees on small frames and are more easily broken when put into the car or other transportation.

Downtube friction levers work on any number of gears and are easily fixed. That's why a lot of world expedition touring cyclists still use friction shifters, you can't replace a sti lever in the middle of nowhere.


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## classic33 (16 May 2021)

Low Gear Guy said:


> Hmmm. Why exactly were they called suicide levers?


Not much use at speed. On the flat, when you're going slower, they'll slow you.

Badly set up brakes and limited lever movement were a "suicidal" combination.


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## battered (16 May 2021)

GuyBoden said:


> Apparently, they stuck into your chest when you braked suddenly and were propelled forward.


 Not when I had them on my bike. I never got close to it happening, even during any number of teenage crashes.



> Downtube friction levers work on any number of gears and are easily fixed. That's why a lot of world expedition touring cyclists still use friction shifters, you can't replace a sti lever in the middle of nowhere.


That's as may be if you are planning a trip round the world. I'm not, I live in Yorkshire and don't need to put up with a more difficult solution that may be a good idea if I break down in Afghanistan. I don't have to put up with a Land Rover every day so that I can drive off road either. If either of these situations changes, I'll review it, but my road bike would be useless in Afghanistan for any number of reasons, the shifters would be the least of my worries.


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## Eric Olthwaite (16 May 2021)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Suicide levers for drop bars. Very useful when pootling around.



I believe they exist in an improved form and are not uncommon on CX bikes.
They're called 'interrupter levers' or 'in line levers' and act on the cable directly rather than via a mechanical linkage to the primary brake levers.
This gives them the not inconsiderable benefit of actually being capable of hard braking.


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## Ming the Merciless (16 May 2021)

Low Gear Guy said:


> Hmmm. Why exactly were they called suicide levers?



They work perfectly fine in non emergency braking situations. I never had a situation where they didn’t stop me safely in plenty of time.


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## matticus (16 May 2021)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Rim brakes


haha - I was going to post that! They are, after all, extinct according to many ...


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## Eric Olthwaite (16 May 2021)

32 spoke wheels


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## Ming the Merciless (16 May 2021)

battered said:


> I don't like downtube shifters. They're in the wrong place. You don't put a car's gearshift behind the passenger seat, after all. Years ago I had a 10 speed bike with the shifters moved to the stem. I never knew why they weren't more popular. They were very close to being thumbies before thumbies were invented.



pfffft, I used down tube shifters for 18 years and they worked perfectly all that time. Riders have no problem reaching for water bottles which are lower down and more awkward to handle.


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## matticus (16 May 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> They work perfectly fine in non emergency braking situations.


That sounds like a good description of most utterly crap brakes.


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## Drago (16 May 2021)

Frame mounted pumps.


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## battered (16 May 2021)

matticus said:


> haha - I was going to post that! They are, after all, extinct according to many ...


Rim brakes nearly made me extinct coming off Ventoux. It was filthy weather, couldn't see 10 metres, heavy rain. I was wearing everything I had, 5 layers, and I was freezing. I had to stop and run up and down halfway down the descent. 10mph was an absolute maximum speed until we dropped out of the cloud, so my pal and I were both hard on the brakes. Both of us needed new rear blocks at the bottom, and mine had been nearly new.


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## Ming the Merciless (16 May 2021)

Eric Olthwaite said:


> 32 spoke wheels



I am running 36 spoke wheels on my recumbent. Guess what, they haven’t slowed me down vs. lesser spoked wheels.


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## Drago (16 May 2021)

Leather faced brake blocks.


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## battered (16 May 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> pfffft, I used down tube shifters for 18 years and they worked perfectly all that time. Riders have no problem reaching for water bottles which are lower down and more awkward to handle.


Yes, and my parents grew up in houses with outside lavatories and no heating until the fire was lit. I don't. I have gas CH and indoor facilities, and I don't crap in the garden. Just because you could, or used to, it doesn't mean that you have to now.


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## Ming the Merciless (16 May 2021)

battered said:


> Yes, and my parents grew up in houses with outside lavatories and no heating until the fire was lit. Just because you can, it doesn't mean that you have to.



When people choose to, instead of STI. Doesn’t it make you question why they are considered superior to STI?

If downtube is the outside lav then STI is the hole in the ground.


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## matticus (16 May 2021)

battered said:


> Rim brakes nearly made me extinct coming off Ventoux. It was filthy weather, couldn't see 10 metres, heavy rain. I was wearing everything I had, 5 layers, and I was freezing. I had to stop and run up and down halfway down the descent. 10mph was an absolute maximum speed until we dropped out of the cloud, so my pal and I were both hard on the brakes. Both of us needed new rear blocks at the bottom, and mine had been nearly new.


That's just bad braking technique for long hills. 

(I had similar weather descending Col du Glandon - except it was warm enough to keep riding, July; then Tourmalet in October. I stopped to do star-jumps instead of your running trick! )

Anyway, the rim vs disc debate has taken up Gb of bandwidth already. I don't want to rehash it all, except to say it's absurd to write-off rim brakes now; even if you think *they're useless/lethal*, it's pretty clear enough of us WILL keep them viable for a few years yet. So there :P


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## Ming the Merciless (16 May 2021)

Cycle clothing that isn’t padded and isn’t black


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## GuyBoden (16 May 2021)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Suicide levers for drop bars. Very useful when pootling around.


Yes, I agree, I was pootling around on my old Galaxy this afternoon with Suicide levers, I use them all the time, they're great for slowly, slowing down for corners, things of interest, etc. I get on the drops for any serious stopping.

Below is a pic of probably the best simple engineering solution for gear levers ever created, Simplex Retrofriction.


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## Ming the Merciless (16 May 2021)

Cycling capes and a deer stalker for head protection.


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## Ming the Merciless (16 May 2021)

Rolled up blankets, with a bottle of whisky in the middle, strapped to the bars for bike packing.


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## battered (16 May 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> When people choose to, instead of STI. Doesn’t it make you question why they are considered superior to STI?
> 
> If downtube is the outside lav then STI is the hole in the ground.


It's just hairshirted purism to choose downtube shifters over well set up STI. I have both, and especially on a flatbar bike I'd never have downtube shifters. If you want to differ, be my guest. It's your bike, and mine is mine.


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## Teamfixed (16 May 2021)

You're all way off...
Chamois lined shorts!
Wallop!!!!!!


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## Ming the Merciless (16 May 2021)

battered said:


> It's just hairshirted purism to choose downtube shifters over well set up STI. I have both, and especially on a flatbar bike I'd never have downtube shifters. If you want to differ, be my guest. It's your bike, and mine is mine.



Nothing hair shirt about it. It’s just a far better engineered gearing solution. Tried STI, it was shoot in so many ways. If it suits you fine, but don’t mistake that for it being superior.

In summary something does not become hairshirt or a poor solution because it’s an older one. Good solutions remain just that. Good.


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## battered (16 May 2021)

matticus said:


> That's just bad braking technique for long hills.


Nope, I was cycling from one rim to the other to avoid them overheating. Not that they ever would, it was freezing and wet through. The problem is the gritty water coming up from the front tyre, there's no getting away from that. Your choices are that you use the brakes or walk down. It's a bloody long way down Ventoux.


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## GuyBoden (16 May 2021)

Perhaps we've got too soft nowadays.


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## battered (16 May 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Nothing hair shirt about it. It’s just a far better engineered gearing solution. Tried STI, it was shoot in so many ways. If it suits you fine, but don’t mistake that for it being superior.
> 
> In summary something does not become hairshirt or a poor solution because it’s an older one. Good solutions remain just that. Good.


No, it's a poor solution because it's more difficult to use. It works, but so does lighting a fire when you need to heat your house.


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## GuyBoden (16 May 2021)

battered said:


> It's just hairshirted purism to choose downtube shifters over well set up STI. I have both, and especially on a flatbar bike I'd never have downtube shifters. If you want to differ, be my guest. It's your bike, and mine is mine.


Have you ever tried fixing a STI dual lever, their complexity is why they're nearly always replaced and never fixed. 

The metal parts in a STI wear and become unusable overtime, I have a few non-working older STI sets in my garage, they are not durable like downtube shifters.


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## matticus (16 May 2021)

battered said:


> Nope, I was cycling from one rim to the other to avoid them overheating. Not that they ever would, it was freezing and wet through. The problem is the gritty water coming up from the front tyre, there's no getting away from that. Your choices are that you use the brakes or walk down. It's a bloody long way down Ventoux.


Overheating isn't the problem - wearing your blocks out was. Better technique could avoid that. Gritty water is quite common on wet descents, it shouldn't cause you a big problem.

But you switched to discs - whatever makes you happy! I have to say, I've seen lots of people use up their disc brake pads on rides, but never seen rim-brake pads die. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, it just seems to be much much rarer.


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## Drago (16 May 2021)

Ordinarys.

Solid rubber tyres.

Acetylene lighting.


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## matticus (16 May 2021)

GuyBoden said:


> Perhaps we've got too soft nowadays.
> View attachment 589103


They smoked cos they knew the next descent would probably kill them. And if that didn't, riding without a helmet _certainly _would!


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## Ming the Merciless (16 May 2021)

battered said:


> No, it's a poor solution because it's more difficult to use. It works, but so does lighting a fire when you need to heat your house.



Difficult to use . In the same way a cup is difficult to use for a drink 😂😂😂😂


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## GuyBoden (16 May 2021)

The spectators aren't as good looking nowadays.


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## Drago (16 May 2021)

Plus fours and tweeds. 

Handlebar pipe holders.

Manufacturers with proper names, like Excelsior and Cecil.


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## Rusty Nails (16 May 2021)

Legs were much stronger 50 years ago.

I'd like to see a return of mine.


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## battered (16 May 2021)

matticus said:


> Overheating isn't the problem - wearing your blocks out was. Better technique could avoid that. Gritty water is quite common on wet descents, it shouldn't cause you a big problem.
> 
> But you switched to discs - whatever makes you happy! I have to say, I've seen lots of people use up their disc brake pads on rides, but never seen rim-brake pads die. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, it just seems to be much much rarer.


Well, I didn't switch to discs. The bike's the same.


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## Drago (16 May 2021)

Cyclemotors.

White painted sections on rear muguards.

Jose Ferrer riding a stolen 3 speed in The Cockleshell Heroes.


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## SkipdiverJohn (16 May 2021)

battered said:


> Rim brakes nearly made me extinct coming off Ventoux. It was filthy weather, couldn't see 10 metres, heavy rain. I was wearing everything I had, 5 layers, and I was freezing. I had to stop and run up and down halfway down the descent. 10mph was an absolute maximum speed until we dropped out of the cloud, so my pal and I were both hard on the brakes. Both of us needed new rear blocks at the bottom, and mine had been nearly new.



If the weather was that shite, then why did you go for a ride in the first place? I don't look out of the window, wait until it's really pissing down, then choose that moment to go out for a stroll!


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## Juan Kog (16 May 2021)

Drago said:


> Leather faced brake blocks.


With chrome rims ..........in the rain .


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## Ming the Merciless (16 May 2021)

matticus said:


> That sounds like a good description of most utterly crap brakes.



Yes rim brakes eh!


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## Juan Kog (16 May 2021)

battered said:


> Yes, and my parents grew up in houses with outside lavatories and no heating until the fire was lit. I don't. I have gas CH and indoor facilities, and I don't crap in the garden. Just because you could, or used to, it doesn't mean that you have to now.


If D/T levers and rim brakes are the cycling equivalent of outside lavs and no central heating . Riding fixed I’m still living in a cave and eating mammoth stew .


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## classic33 (16 May 2021)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> If the weather was that shite, then why did you go for a ride in the first place? I don't look out of the window, wait until it's really pissing down, then choose that moment to go out for a stroll!


And if it starts on your way back home, what do you do?


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## battered (16 May 2021)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> If the weather was that shite, then why did you go for a ride in the first place? I don't look out of the window, wait until it's really pissing down, then choose that moment to go out for a stroll!


Have you been to Ventoux? The weather in the valley was fine. The summit's 2000m, so 2 x Ben Nevis. The summit's another world. In addition, we had to get over or round to get to the next night's accommodation of the tour so there was little choice.


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## Juan Kog (16 May 2021)

fossyant said:


> My Dura Ace DT indexed shifters are 30 years old.


I couldn't afford Dura ace 30 years ago.  My D/T levers are only 7 speed shimano 600 tricolor and 8 speed 105.


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## goldcoastjon (16 May 2021)

I'd like to see the return of the classic *FRENCH* component makers like MAFAC, Stronglight, Simplex, Ideale (recently reincarnated, come to think of it), Tressostar, etc. 

(If nothing else, for the old-look/old-style SL chain rings for SL 99s and 93 cranksets, MAFAC brake parts, etc.) 

And yes, I *already* know I'm crazy for wanting this... ;-)


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## Smokin Joe (16 May 2021)

Polished aluminium chainsets, brakes and gears.

Black should be banned.


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## MichaelW2 (16 May 2021)

Downtube friction levers are more difficult to use in the sense that a violin is more difficult to play than a Stylophone.
I commuted on DT friction levers for many years and could shift in an instant with no delay. I could shift front and rear simultaneously with one hand.
The one drawback was an unwillingness to shift when going fast down twisty roads.
Nowadays I use indexed thumb shifter on Alfine hub gears. I have used Campagnolo and Shimano indexed drop bar levers. The Campy had a much better micro indexed front mech system. There was always a bit of a delay and a remote feeling but fully loaded downhill was safer. As a touring backup I carried a Suntour micro-indexed rear DT lever that could shift any system.


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## MichaelW2 (16 May 2021)

Drillium.


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## SkipdiverJohn (16 May 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> Wheel nuts.



They never went away on basic machines.


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## MichaelW2 (16 May 2021)

Ever ready bike lights.

No can we move that one to the Jokes section. Any lighting system between carbide and LED is POS.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2MTxg6zC9o


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## postman (16 May 2021)

Those mile counter things with the little window.


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (16 May 2021)

MichaelW2 said:


> Ever ready bike lights.
> 
> No can we move that one to the Jokes section. Any lighting system between carbide and LED is POS.



My old Miller sidewall dynamo lights were fine, as long as you were moving. The headlight bulb brightness also acted as a crude form of speedometer.


----------



## Juan Kog (17 May 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> Wheel nuts.





SkipdiverJohn said:


> They never went away on basic machines.


Oi !!!  I don’t consider my Surly Steamroller ( with track nuts) a basic machine. .


----------



## Ming the Merciless (17 May 2021)

Those speedometer style bike computers with the big analogue displays


----------



## scoobs (17 May 2021)

Raleigh Chopper or cow horn handle bars 🤣


----------



## GilesM (17 May 2021)

Proper shaped handle bars Cinelli 65 or 66 depending on your own preference (65 was always my choice), much more beautiful than badly shaped narrow ones of today, especially the aero ones more of the pros are starting to use.

Maximum 28 tooth rear sprockets, the big ones just look so bad, especially on a road bike.


----------



## Oldhippy (17 May 2021)

Old thinking that a cycle is perfectly good transport and not just a three grand toy for the weekend that needs loads of expensive clothing to use.


----------



## Darius_Jedburgh (17 May 2021)

Juan Kog said:


> shimano 600 tricolor


I've just finished trawling Ebay to complete a 600 tricolor groupset for my retro build. Good stuff when it was new, and still good today.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (17 May 2021)

MichaelW2 said:


> Downtube friction levers are more difficult to use in the sense that a violin is more difficult to play than a Stylophone.
> I commuted on DT friction levers for many years and could shift in an instant with no delay. I could shift front and rear simultaneously with one hand.
> The one drawback was an unwillingness to shift when going fast down twisty roads.



Learning to play a violin is somewhat harder than using downtube shifters. In fact getting a tune out of a stylophone is somewhat harder than using DT shifters. Nothing could be simpler to get the grasp of than the DT shifter. Where as dual control causes all sorts of problems and no visible sign of what gear you are in.


----------



## GuyBoden (17 May 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> Wheel nuts.



The fashion for QR wheels made them easier to steal, so locking QR were invented, thus defeating the purpose of QR.

The new fangled cycling technology invention of a "thru Axle" are simply a nut and bolt, but £13 each.


----------



## GilesM (17 May 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> They haven't gone away.
> 
> Just fewer people are willing to pay the price in terms of misery. (Popularity of big sprockets is also probably related to the relative decline of the triple)
> 
> (Happy user of a 34T sprocket here, with bad memories of 28T)



The wonders of the modern double ultra compact chainsets with nice ring sizes like 30/46 mean we shouldn't need big sprockets for the road, although the ultra compact chainset is not exactly new, TA used to do a good range with all sorts of options.


----------



## GuyBoden (17 May 2021)

Darius_Jedburgh said:


> I've just finished trawling Ebay to complete a 600 tricolor groupset for my retro build. Good stuff when it was new, and still good today.


I have a complete (Ultegra) 600 Tricolor group set, including hubs, on my 531 competition bike. Very well made stuff, I sold the STI levers, but have the downtube levers.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (17 May 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> I find very little difference with DT shifters. It takes me about an hour or two's riding to reprogram my arms to using them & once I've done that then things are normal. Overall I think I probably prefer brifters, but not by a massive amount. The visual indication of gear on a DT shifter requires a downward look, so it's not really all that much different to looking back at the cassette.



A quick glance at downtube is far easier than glancing back and down at cassette to check gear 😆


----------



## Ming the Merciless (17 May 2021)

I’d like to see a return to more things that are simple enough to service yourself and keep going for years. Shimano do at least still use cup and cone bearings.


----------



## Milkfloat (17 May 2021)

Honestly - there is no cycling technology that has gone away that I would like to see return, anything I want for my retro bikes still exists. I ride my retro bikes to remind me of my youth, if I actually want a fast comfortable ride then I use my modern bikes. Like music, people tend to have rose tinted glasses for an era when they were in their prime. I have never had a prime, so no rose tinted glasses.


----------



## Darius_Jedburgh (17 May 2021)

GuyBoden said:


> I have a complete (Ultegra) 600 Tricolor group set, including hubs, on my 531 competition bike. Very well made stuff, I sold the STI levers, but have the downtube levers.


I went the other way. Got rid of DT in favour of brifters. Just so much better to use.


----------



## GuyBoden (17 May 2021)

Darius_Jedburgh said:


> I went the other way. Got rid of DT in favour of brifters. Just so much better to use.


The 600 STI are ok, until they wear and can't be fixed.

I'll admit that STI were quicker for racing.


----------



## Cycleops (17 May 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Learning to play a violin is somewhat harder than using downtube shifters. In fact getting a tune out of a stylophone is somewhat harder than using DT shifters. Nothing could be simpler to get the grasp of than the DT shifter. Where as dual control causes all sorts of problems and no visible sign of what gear you are in.


Some of us are veritable Yehudi Menuhins on the old downtube shifters 

As for knowing what gear you’re in there’s always your legs and your brain telling you.


----------



## GuyBoden (17 May 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> I'm definitely not of the luddite / nostalgic persuasion, and I tend to like newfangled and different stuff just for the sake of it being new and different, but the popularity of QRs always puzzled me.
> 
> I don't take my wheels off very often, and when I do I'm rarely in a tearing hurry. I know some people find them very useful eg when regularly transporting a bike, but they always struck me as a bit pointless. Or if not quite pointless, not very pointy. Even most hybrids come equipped with QRs.
> 
> I suppose it does mean you don't need to carry a spanner. Or maybe it's more to do with manufacturing standardisation.


The axles with wheel nuts are solid not hollow like QR, so are stronger too. I have a 15mm spanner in my kit.


----------



## fossyant (17 May 2021)

Can't agree about QR - no messing - love them. Easy for maintenance, and transporting bike in the car. No fiddling with adjusting - undo lever, drop wheel out - PS no lawyer tabs on my road bikes !

Through axel's are a bit of a pest, they aren't really quick release, but you don't need tools unless you've got a 'stealth' version which uses a hex key. But there is a reason for them - increased load from discs and 'suspension' (MTB).


----------



## Trickedem (17 May 2021)

Bring back lights that use rechargeable batteries. Preferably AAs. A much better solution for long distance riding and commuting that a crappy usb charged, lithium powered light.


----------



## fossyant (17 May 2021)

Trickedem said:


> Bring back lights that use rechargeable batteries. Preferably AAs. A much better solution for long distance riding and commuting that a crappy usb charged, lithium powered light.



Hope Vision 1 -


----------



## GuyBoden (17 May 2021)

fossyant said:


> Through axel's are a bit of a pest, they aren't really quick release, but you don't need tools unless you've got a 'stealth' version which uses a hex key. But there is a reason for them - increased load from discs and 'suspension' (MTB).



They remind me of a motorbike thru axle, that's probably where the idea came from.


----------



## fossyant (17 May 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> I don't feel terribly strongly on the subject. I can see how they are handy if you transport your bike often.
> 
> In fact, on the general subject of what would I like to see return - nothing.
> 
> ...



My road bikes were raced - so they were in/out/on top of a car regular, and they both have a chain hanger braise on for when the wheel is out. Even now, it's handy for cleaning & maintenance - especially the MTB's - much easier with the wheels off and bike in a bike stand.

Road bikes really haven't moved on massively, OK lighter etc and discs which have a couple of advantaged (wet weather and not wearing out rims).

MTB's though - I'll stick with the new stuff - far more capable, so I'll take suspension, dropper posts, geometry changes and advancement in tyres and, of course disc brakes, especially 4 pots !


----------



## dickyknees (17 May 2021)

postman said:


> Those mile counter things with the little window.



Tick, tick, tick,tick.


----------



## Illaveago (17 May 2021)

Standardisation !


----------



## matticus (17 May 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> A quick glance at downtube is far easier than glancing back and down at cassette to check gear 😆


Considerably so! But also, you can feel the shifter position in your hand - either to check it, or as extra info/feedback when you are changing. Don't get that with brifters (or indeed the funky modern thumb-shifts for flat bars).

DTs are SUCH a simple, elegant mechanism. "Upgrades" would need to give me much better performance/convenience to be worthwhile.
(Yes, I've ridden 10s of K with various brifters - probably more than with DTs by now ... )


----------



## Drago (17 May 2021)

Raleigh Grifters with the front 2 inches of sest foam snapped off.


----------



## matticus (17 May 2021)

GilesM said:
_The wonders of the modern double ultra compact chainsets with nice ring sizes like 30/46 mean we shouldn't need big sprockets for the road, although the ultra compact chainset is not exactly new, TA used to do a good range with all sorts of options._

There is always someone either with more luggage than you, or lower power-to-weight. And remember UK cycle-tourists used to simply accept a stroll up the steepest bits of their route.
So 30+ teeth (on the back) have their place, even though I could happily do plenty of riding with just 26 or 28!


----------



## Trickedem (17 May 2021)

fossyant said:


> Hope Vision 1 -


A great light. Unfortunately no longer made


----------



## matticus (17 May 2021)

Trickedem said:


> Bring back lights that use rechargeable batteries. Preferably AAs. A much better solution for long distance riding and commuting that a crappy usb charged, lithium powered light.


I think this is a real green issue. For commuting the usb charging works pretty well, but you have to accept binning the things far earlier in their life than should be necessary. 

Of course dyno-hubs are your friend too, that's the good news! 

(but yeah, for long-distance - touring/audax/whatever, AAs beat everything. All this recharging power-banks is just a solution to a needless problem ... )


----------



## Smokin Joe (17 May 2021)

GuyBoden said:


> The axles with wheel nuts are solid not hollow like QR, so are stronger too. I have a 15mm spanner in my kit.


Hollow axles are less prone to bending than solid ones.


----------



## Hover Fly (17 May 2021)

Hollow axles are larger diameter than solid, putting more material on the outside.
With a qr , if the axle breaks in two the skewer clamps the broken pieces together, in fact you might not even notice that it’s broken. Ive had one or two cases when I got home with a broken rear axle. With a solid axle and nuts I would have been in trouble.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (17 May 2021)

matticus said:


> Considerably so! But also, you can feel the shifter position in your hand - either to check it, or as extra info/feedback when you are changing. Don't get that with brifters (or indeed the funky modern thumb-shifts for flat bars).
> 
> DTs are SUCH a simple, elegant mechanism. "Upgrades" would need to give me much better performance/convenience to be worthwhile.
> (Yes, I've ridden 10s of K with various brifters - probably more than with DTs by now ... )



That as well. You can put your hand on the lever in the dark and know where your gears are at.


----------



## Milkfloat (17 May 2021)

I am not sure I get this fascination for knowing which gear you are in, my legs tell me if it is too easy or too hard.


----------



## matticus (17 May 2021)

Milkfloat said:


> I am not sure I get this fascination for knowing which gear you are in, my legs tell me if it is too easy or too hard.


"_Fascination_"? Where did you get that from? It's just another useful thing to know. It's VERY useful for certain situations with more than 1 chain-ring. 
(and don't you like to know on a climb if you have any gears left??)


----------



## matticus (17 May 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> I believe that with DI2 you can get your current gear displayed on your head unit. Now * that's * progress.
> 
> (Puts on tin hat, runs away and hides)


Is this a head-up display on my helmet visor? If not, I'm not buying ...


----------



## Drago (17 May 2021)

Top trumps cards held against the spokes with a clothes peg to make motorbike noises.


----------



## Kajjal (17 May 2021)

For mountain biking going back to calliper "brakes", 3 x 7 gearing, 2" tyres, no suspension, bar ends on very narrow handlebars, biopace chain rings (who needs knees) and map + compass only. The joy of being shaken to bits and while lost climbing up a hill to see where you are is lost on the youth of today. Once we finished in the early 1990's your hands would be locked in the holding the grip position for a while until they loosened up again. Then you had to drive home with no sat nav


----------



## Milkfloat (17 May 2021)

matticus said:


> "_Fascination_"? Where did you get that from? It's just another useful thing to know. It's VERY useful for certain situations with more than 1 chain-ring.
> (and don't you like to know on a climb if you have any gears left??)


I keep going until the lever wont move anymore - and then I either swear a lot or fall off.


----------



## hoopdriver (17 May 2021)

battered said:


> It's just hairshirted purism to choose downtube shifters over well set up STI. I have both, and especially on a flatbar bike I'd never have downtube shifters. If you want to differ, be my guest. It's your bike, and mine is mine.


Ever tried repairing STI shifters on a tourer in the middle of nowhere? Neither have I - and I don't want to. Bar ends of down tubes for me.


----------



## T4tomo (17 May 2021)

the beauty of a bar end or DT shifter (friction or indexed) is that its just one continuous pull with no complex ratchets. To my mind both are pretty similar to operate, one advantage of DT is you can operate them with the "wrong" hand if you so wish (i.e. whilst braking).

my Ultegra RH shifter broke after 6 years of use, it should be very fixable (its just a spring somewhere, except shimano treat it as a disposable part, and they are damn expensive to replace, plus they bring out a new "series" so often, unless you find one on ebay, you're looking at a new pair for £250+


----------



## battered (17 May 2021)

hoopdriver said:


> Ever tried repairing STI shifters on a tourer in the middle of nowhere? Neither have I - and I don't want to. Bar ends of down tubes for me.


As I said earlier, if I wanted to cycle across Afghanistan this might be a consideration. But I don't. If I change my mind, I'll get a bike that suits. And have you ever had a Shimano shifter break down, ever? No, neither have I.
I don't get this fixation with being able to mend the thing in the middle of Uzbekistan using only bent wire and yak droppings, when none of the protagonists have ever been there, or will. The same goes for my car - I live in Leeds. Ah yes, but you'd have no chance repairing the ECU on that halfway across the Paris-Dakar rally, would you? No, but by the same token I don't want to go there, so I don't need a Bowler Wildcat just in case on my way to Asda.


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (17 May 2021)

How about a return to having a piece of rope tied around your axle to keep it clean??

As for lights - those nice one I had when I was a kid that took 2 U2 batteries?


----------



## battered (17 May 2021)

T4tomo said:


> the beauty of a bar end or DT shifter (friction or indexed) is that its just one continuous pull with no complex ratchets. To my mind both are pretty similar to operate, one advantage of DT is you can operate them with the "wrong" hand if you so wish (i.e. whilst braking).


As opposed to the advantage of STI being that you can operate both shifters without taking either hand off the bars, while braking or not.
There's a reason why motorcycles abandoned hand gear shifters in the 1920s or 1930s, and why they were called "suicide shifters".


----------



## MichaelW2 (17 May 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> I'm definitely not of the luddite / nostalgic persuasion, and I tend to like newfangled and different stuff just for the sake of it being new and different, but the popularity of QRs always puzzled me.
> 
> I don't take my wheels off very often, and when I do I'm rarely in a tearing hurry. I know some people find them very useful eg when regularly transporting a bike, but they always struck me as a bit pointless. Or if not quite pointless, not very pointy. Even most hybrids come equipped with QRs.
> 
> I suppose it does mean you don't need to carry a spanner. Or maybe it's more to do with manufacturing standardisation.


QR skewer keeps a hollow axle under compression. If the axle snaps it may still be rideable. A solid axle with nut is under tension so if the axle cracks everthing falls out. More useful to expedition riders in back of beyond.


----------



## Teamfixed (17 May 2021)

Wheel carriers.


----------



## T4tomo (17 May 2021)

battered said:


> As opposed to the advantage of STI being that you can operate both shifters without taking either hand off the bars, while braking or not.
> There's a reason why motorcycles abandoned hand gear shifters in the 1920s or 1930s, and why they were called "suicide shifters".


You selectively quoted my post there. I agree brifters are slightly easier to use as with hands on the hoods (usual position for most people /time) you can shift and brake with out moving your hand, I never suggested otherwise. I disagree with your much repeated point that DT and Bar end shifter are the work of the devil to operate and may result in death.

My point was brifters are almost too complex for their own good and expensive when they break, which they ultimately will. i suspect its no coincidence that my 11 spd one broke, yet my 10 spd ones, on a bike sold to a mate, are still going strong for now.

Bar end and DT shifters are much less likely to break and are cheaper to replace when they do.

I use all 3 types on my fleet and a SA 3 speed shift. they all do the job fine.


----------



## Darius_Jedburgh (17 May 2021)

Teamfixed said:


> Wheel carriers.


Like these?


----------



## hoopdriver (17 May 2021)

battered said:


> As I said earlier, if I wanted to cycle across Afghanistan this might be a consideration. But I don't. If I change my mind, I'll get a bike that suits. And have you ever had a Shimano shifter break down, ever? No, neither have I.
> I don't get this fixation with being able to mend the thing in the middle of Uzbekistan using only bent wire and yak droppings, when none of the protagonists have ever been there, or will. The same goes for my car - I live in Leeds. Ah yes, but you'd have no chance repairing the ECU on that halfway across the Paris-Dakar rally, would you? No, but by the same token I don't want to go there, so I don't need a Bowler Wildcat just in case on my way to Asda.


I have actually been obliged to repair a shifter (bar end) in the middle of the Great Sandy Desert - either repair it (the handle broke) or ride in scoching heat and stiff headwinds in the same gear for the next 300 miles. I had no Yak droppings, alas, but I was able to whittle a serviceable handle that functioned well enough. I doubt I could have whittled a new brifter...


----------



## roubaixtuesday (17 May 2021)

davidphilips said:


> My first choice has to be a return of head badges, no function value but a nice bit of bling.



Some makers still do 'em. On my Swallow...


----------



## simongt (17 May 2021)

PeteXXX said:


> A kickstand


Still avaiable in t'net at least - !


----------



## PeteXXX (17 May 2021)

simongt said:


> Still avaiable in t'net at least - !


In carbon, or steel 😉


----------



## avecReynolds531 (17 May 2021)

Agree with headbadges on frames - seem to be part of a bike's identity. Including these photos of a stainless steel headbadge - with the cutout then silver soldered onto the seat tube. (One beautiful frame in Reynolds 853.)

Headbadges were something Grant Petersen considered important when Rivendell was started. 

There's a great article here - which fits well with this thread - about the influence of GP and Rivendell promoting steel frames during a time when other materials were very much more popular: https://www.renehersecycles.com/1995-rivendell-turning-the-tide/


----------



## andrew_s (17 May 2021)

matticus said:


> Overheating isn't the problem - wearing your blocks out was. Better technique could avoid that.


Care to describe the correct braking technique?
(bearing in mind that the OP was inside the clouds at the time, aka thick fog)


----------



## Ming the Merciless (17 May 2021)

battered said:


> As opposed to the advantage of STI being that you can operate both shifters without taking either hand off the bars, while braking or not.
> There's a reason why motorcycles abandoned hand gear shifters in the 1920s or 1930s, and why they were called "suicide shifters".



Something to do with 80mph speeds and the human brain struggling to keep up with deluge of new information


----------



## Ming the Merciless (17 May 2021)

battered said:


> And have you ever had a Shimano shifter break down, ever? No, neither have I



Yes, had brifters break twice and there was zero ability to fix, either myself or when I next got to a bike shop. Leaving me in shitty gear choices for the terrain. This in Europe and no there wasn’t a bike shop on every corner. Replacement brifters just one side over £100 if you can source them. An over complicated solution looking for a problem that didn’t exist.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (17 May 2021)

battered said:


> As opposed to the advantage of STI being that you can operate both shifters without taking either hand off the bars, while braking or not.
> There's a reason why motorcycles abandoned hand gear shifters in the 1920s or 1930s, and why they were called "suicide shifters".



If you are trying to change gear, both front and rear, whilst simultaneously braking; then you’ve farked up big time.


----------



## Shack (17 May 2021)

battered said:


> I don't like downtube shifters. They're in the wrong place. You don't put a car's gearshift behind the passenger seat, after all. Years ago I had a 10 speed bike with the shifters moved to the stem. I never knew why they weren't more popular. They were very close to being thumbies before thumbies were invented.


I've had bar end shifters on a couple of short owned bikes and never really got on with them my old tourer still has downtube shifters and my gravel has grifters. I lover the brifters but change gear sooooo much more that means probably everything will wear out in a fraction of the time through over use.


----------



## Ian H (17 May 2021)

Nearly all the 'retro' stuff can still be found. I specced my last but one bike as rim brakes, triple, bar-end levers. It's a steel 650B tourer cum do-anything bike.


----------



## andrew_s (17 May 2021)

MichaelW2 said:


> QR skewer keeps a hollow axle under compression. If the axle snaps it may still be rideable. A solid axle with nut is under tension so if the axle cracks everthing falls out. *More useful to expedition riders in back of beyond*.


Not particularly - an unrideable bike is a problem any time you go further than walking distance from home.
The law of sod being what it is, such a failure is most likely to happen on a Sunday, on a weekend that your domestic rescue service has gone off to visit Aunt Bessie at the other end of the country.


----------



## GuyBoden (17 May 2021)

Smokin Joe said:


> Hollow axles are less prone to bending than solid ones.



Apparently, not if they both have the same diameters.

"If you're talking about the bending strength of a hollow vs. solid rod there are really two answers.

For a constant outside diameter the solid rod is much stronger. There is a lot more material to take the force.

However, for a given weight or amount of material the hollow rod is much stronger. A hollow rod that weighs the same as a solid rod will be much wider so the force will be spread over a much larger area.

Bending strength in this case is proportional to the moment of inertia which for a constant mass is higher if the mass is distributed further away from the center.

In a situation where weight or material cost is a concern you're better off using the largest diameter hollow rod you can. If weight or cost is not a problem than the biggest solid rod will be the strongest thing you can use.

I should note that there is a practical limitation to this. If you make the tube wall thin enough and apply the force over a small enough area the tube will "dimple" forming a small depression around where the force is applied. As soon as the tube loses its nice round shape its strength dramatically decreases and failure becomes much more likely."


----------



## Smokin Joe (17 May 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> An over complicated solution looking for a problem that didn’t exist.



Or a massive improvement which makes gear changing easier and quicker.

It's all a matter of what suits, I've used brifters since Campag introduced them on the affordable Veloce groupset early nineties and I never had one give trouble.


----------



## HLaB (17 May 2021)

Everready lights 🙄


----------



## tyred (17 May 2021)

I want my Kellogg's Corn Flakes spoke reflectors


----------



## TheDoctor (17 May 2021)

Let's look at my upcoming build.
531ST - Yes!
Downtube shifters - Yes!
Rim brakes - Yes!
Nice wide 32mm tyres - Yes!
9 speed 11-36 cassette - Yes!
Single chainring - Yes!
I know they're uber-trendy now, but they've always been around.
Thinking about it, I appear to be building a gravel bike, when it's actually a touring bike...


----------



## Illaveago (18 May 2021)

tyred said:


> I want my Kellogg's Corn Flakes spoke reflectors


What about Smartie tops ?


----------



## Mike Ayling (18 May 2021)

I might have missed it but I take it that nobody wants to see the return of cotter pins!


----------



## Illaveago (18 May 2021)

The gear changing issue I find that I have more problems with indexed as opposed to down tube gear levers . A quick change can be done with a hard pull or push, top to bottom or vice versa . With indexed you have to keep going through the sequence .
Has anyone had the experience of coming to a halt and almost falling off as you have forgotten which way the brifters work. Is it thumb or finger for up or down and which way is it for the other side ? The chain hasn't a clue what is going on and ends up straddled across all the sprockets !


----------



## dave r (18 May 2021)

MichaelW2 said:


> QR skewer keeps a hollow axle under compression. If the axle snaps it may still be rideable. A solid axle with nut is under tension so if the axle cracks everthing falls out. More useful to expedition riders in back of beyond.



I've ridden home on a broken rear solid axle, about 10 miles, it took ages and the wheel was very wobbly, but I got home on it.


----------



## Drago (18 May 2021)

Path racers.


----------



## GilesM (18 May 2021)

Darius_Jedburgh said:


> Like these?
> View attachment 589268



I remember riding to Cross events as a schoolboy and carrying my cross wheels with knobbly tubs like that.


----------



## Blue Hills (18 May 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> I’d like to see a return to more things that are simple enough to service yourself and keep going for years. Shimano do at least still use cup and cone bearings.


It's still possible to ride and maintain stuff like that though isn't it?
I have the feeling that you do.


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (18 May 2021)

Mike Ayling said:


> I might have missed it but I take it that nobody wants to see the return of cotter pins!



I'd be happy to see a return of cotter pins, so long as the chainsets were lightweight hard alloy and not steel ones that weigh a ton. If you put them in properly, and they are correctly dimensioned, they don't work loose and lead to a wobbly crank.
Square Taper, for all it's engineering elegance, does have an annoying habit of coming loose if either of the tapers is worn and mismatching. I sometimes have to give my ST cranks a whack with a mallet then nip up the retaining bolt. OK, it only takes a few minutes, but it's an annoyance all the same - and if one came right off out on the road it's a ride-spoiler.


----------



## battered (18 May 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Something to do with 80mph speeds and the human brain struggling to keep up with deluge of new information


In the 1920s? 80mph on a standard machine of the time? That would have been a good trick.


----------



## Blue Hills (18 May 2021)

fossyant said:


> Hope Vision 1 -


Discontinued isn't it?

edit - i see @Trickedem beat me to it.
It's not the best beam pattern though - my fear is that the better beam from that B&M unit will dump something as sensible as rechargeable battery power.
I have two Hope Vision 1's but don't really use them much anymore.


----------



## Blue Hills (18 May 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> Beat me to it. I've got a few rechargeable battery lights. Hope Vision 1. A smallish front light that takes 2 AAs (not sure what make) and little cateye AAA powered rear ones.


I bought up a few Cateye battery rears as stock - became clear to me that the industry is intent on dumping them.


----------



## fossyant (18 May 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> If you are trying to change gear, both front and rear, whilst simultaneously braking; then you’ve farked up big time.



You see this a lot on sportives - folk hit a hill then are scrabbling for gears. Look ahead. I change front and rear with my down tube shifters, one handed. Quite easy. Front first then either 2 clicks up or down on the rear.


----------



## fossyant (18 May 2021)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> I'd be happy to see a return of cotter pins, so long as the chainsets were lightweight hard alloy and not steel ones that weigh a ton. If you put them in properly, and they are correctly dimensioned, they don't work loose and lead to a wobbly crank.
> Square Taper, for all it's engineering elegance, does have an annoying habit of coming loose if either of the tapers is worn and mismatching. I sometimes have to give my ST cranks a whack with a mallet then nip up the retaining bolt. OK, it only takes a few minutes, but it's an annoyance all the same - and if one came right off out on the road it's a ride-spoiler.



I've never had any cranks come lose. Cotter pins are ugly.


----------



## GilesM (18 May 2021)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> I'd be happy to see a return of cotter pins, so long as the chainsets were lightweight hard alloy and not steel ones that weigh a ton. If you put them in properly, and they are correctly dimensioned, they don't work loose and lead to a wobbly crank.
> Square Taper, for all it's engineering elegance, does have an annoying habit of coming loose if either of the tapers is worn and mismatching. I sometimes have to give my ST cranks a whack with a mallet then nip up the retaining bolt. OK, it only takes a few minutes, but it's an annoyance all the same - and if one came right off out on the road it's a ride-spoiler.



The problem is that a cotter pin really does need to be held in a vice to be filed (did too many when I worked in my LBS as a kid) and lots of people don't have a vice, or anywhere to put one, which makes a very simple job virtually impossible for lots of people.


----------



## fossyant (18 May 2021)

I for one do like cartridge bearings on wheels. I've got both, but one bike is DA cup and cone and it has grease ports - why the heck these aren't more common - life is so easy with them.

Cartridge bearings are good where the bike get's a hard life - e.g MTB. Easy enough to re-grease (pop the seal off) then when worn, they come out easy and can be replaced. If cup and cone get knackered, it's often a new hub as the hub race get's pitted. My rear wheel on my MTB get's regularly re-greased as all the crap get's thrown at it.


----------



## Blue Hills (18 May 2021)

fossyant said:


> I've never had any cranks come lose.


Nor me - just check the tightness/tighten up once or twice a bit after first putting the cranks on. Easy with just an allen key.


----------



## fossyant (18 May 2021)

Blue Hills said:


> Nor me - just check the tightness/tighten up once or twice a bit after first putting the cranks on. Easy with just an allen key.



They all have their pro's/cons. Square taper and isis need the extractor tool and a good socket to fit/remove, GXP/Hollowtech2 just needs an allen key (and a plastic preload tool for hollowtech).


----------



## Milkfloat (18 May 2021)

This thread has jumped the shark with a request for cotter pins to return. I almost get the wish for DT shifters on your Russian agricultural lumps of pig iron , but cotter pins - come on, be serious .


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (18 May 2021)

GilesM said:


> The problem is that a cotter pin really does need to be held in a vice to be filed (did too many when I worked in my LBS as a kid) and lots of people don't have a vice, or anywhere to put one, which makes a very simple job virtually impossible for lots of people.



I must be a bit unusual then because I've got four metalworking vices, three decent Records and a rough old Paramo that is fitted to a skip salvaged workmate frame with a bit of scrap 3/4" ply bolted to the top


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## fossyant (18 May 2021)

Milkfloat said:


> Russian agricultural lumps of pig iron



Oi, I'll send the Mafia (not the Russian Mafia, finest Sicilian) round - how dare you dis the finest Italian Columbus SLX tubing - they did tube rifling before the plastic rubbish started doing it.


----------



## battered (18 May 2021)

Shack said:


> I've had bar end shifters on a couple of short owned bikes and never really got on with them my old tourer still has downtube shifters and my gravel has grifters. I lover the brifters but change gear sooooo much more that means probably everything will wear out in a fraction of the time through over use.


Use your bike for its intended purpose. Over time, parts wear out. So replace them. My road bike has had the same set of 105 brifters for 15 years. I'll live with that.


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## T4tomo (18 May 2021)

fossyant said:


> You see this a lot on sportives - folk hit a hill then are scrabbling for gears.


No amount of technology will save those people from their own incompetence though! It does give great entertainment when they grind to a halt, forget to unclip and slowly tumble off.


----------



## Blue Hills (18 May 2021)

hoopdriver said:


> Ever tried repairing STI shifters on a tourer in the middle of nowhere? Neither have I - and I don't want to. Bar ends of down tubes for me.


As an ex ride leader I well remember one guy turning up off the train. In the station car park he found that his brakes wouldn't work. And couldn't figure out what the problem was, fiddle as he might with his brifters. As a flat-bar bod (I use rapidfires separarate from the brakes and they are not only incredibly reliable but compact and easy to fit so you could always carry a spare on a long tour) I just couldn't understand how the interface between a brake lever and brake via a cable could be so complex. He got back on the train.


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## Grant Fondo (18 May 2021)

I would like to see proper cycling media technology return, good old fashioned paper rather than this new-fangled 3D stuff.


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## matticus (18 May 2021)

andrew_s said:


> Care to describe the correct braking technique?
> (bearing in mind that the OP was inside the clouds at the time, aka thick fog)


I didn't see any mention of fog.
(You can be in very wet rain - or even in the cloud - up a mountain without it being fog; it's the norm on UK mountains :P
Reduced visibility for sure, but fog is fog.)
And I don't think Ventoux is a technical descent by any means - admittedly I've only seen videos/TV, but it's nothing like a classic switchback climb, or a tricksy Welsh/Cumbrian road.


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## T4tomo (18 May 2021)

matticus said:


> I didn't see any mention of fog.
> (You can be in very wet rain - or even in the cloud - up a mountain without it being fog; it's the norm on UK mountains :P
> Reduced visibility for sure, but fog is fog.)
> And I don't think Ventoux is a technical descent by any means - admittedly I've only seen videos/TV, but it's nothing like a classic switchback climb, or a tricksy Welsh/Cumbrian road.


Its got a heck of a lot of turns on it, some classic switchbacks nearer the top and a more regular corners of of varying severity thru the woods and 6-10% gradient all the way. In reduced visibility and wet roads, you'd need to be alternating on the brakes for pretty much all the 23km of descent.


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## cyberknight (18 May 2021)

Milkfloat said:


> I keep going until the lever wont move anymore - and then I either swear a lot or fall off.


Trouble is on SRAM road shifters do that and once you get to to easiest gear and click for an easier one it shifts up


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## Ian H (18 May 2021)

So far I've had two people ask me how old this bike is, and look puzzled or surprised when I say a few months. This one has Ergo levers, but the other one, the 650B tourer, has bar-end levers. It's all stainless steel, a mixture of Columbus & KVA.


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## Milkfloat (18 May 2021)

cyberknight said:


> Trouble is on SRAM road shifters do that and once you get to to easiest gear and click for an easier one it shifts up


Crazy Americans with their double tap nonsense.


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## GilesM (18 May 2021)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> I must be a bit unusual then because I've got four metalworking vices, three decent Records and a rough old Paramo that is fitted to a skip salvaged workmate frame with a bit of scrap 3/4" ply bolted to the top



I am in vice envy, I only have one old, but very sound Paramo (blue of course) which sits pride of place on my garage bench, as much as I enjoy using it, I'm not too unhappy about not having cotter pins to file.


----------



## MichaelW2 (18 May 2021)

fossyant said:


> I for one do like cartridge bearings on wheels. I've got both, but one bike is DA cup and cone and it has grease ports - why the heck these aren't more common - life is so easy with them.
> 
> Cartridge bearings are good where the bike get's a hard life - e.g MTB. Easy enough to re-grease (pop the seal off) then when worn, they come out easy and can be replaced. If cup and cone get knackered, it's often a new hub as the hub race get's pitted. My rear wheel on my MTB get's regularly re-greased as all the crap get's thrown at it.


Some older high end hubs had replaceable bearing cups.


----------



## rogerzilla (18 May 2021)

Thumbshifters on MTBs! Light, reliable, out of the firing line for mud, totally intuitive. Shimano invented Rapidfire, though, and hated the fact that racers (and Kona) stuck to thumbies, so decided we weren't allowed them any more.


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## TheDoctor (18 May 2021)

matticus said:


> I didn't see any mention of fog.
> (You can be in very wet rain - or even in the cloud - up a mountain without it being fog; it's the norm on UK mountains :P
> Reduced visibility for sure, but fog is fog.)
> And I don't think Ventoux is a technical descent by any means - admittedly I've only seen videos/TV, but it's nothing like a classic switchback climb, or a tricksy Welsh/Cumbrian road.


To be fair, Ventoux is one hell of a descent. I've been down on a nice sunny day, and again at dusk, but I'd hate to do it in low visibility. You'd be braking the whole time.
Sit upright and you'll slow (!!) to about 30 mph. Brake hard, lean hard and you'll go round the bend. But you can't ride like that on wet roads and/or poor visibility.


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## TheDoctor (18 May 2021)

rogerzilla said:


> Thumbshifters on MTBs! Light, reliable, out of the firing line for mud, totally intuitive. Shimano invented Rapidfire, though, and hated the fact that racers (and Kona) stuck to thumbies, so decided we weren't allowed them any more.


Still available new, although only for 5/6/7 speed rear ends (based on a quick Google) and triple fronts. 7 speed cassettes are still a thing though.


----------



## Chislenko (18 May 2021)

I'd like to see the legs I had at 18 years of age, these new fangled 65 year old ones just don't cut it!


----------



## DCBassman (18 May 2021)

rogerzilla said:


> Thumbshifters on MTBs! Light, reliable, out of the firing line for mud, totally intuitive. Shimano invented Rapidfire, though, and hated the fact that racers (and Kona) stuck to thumbies, so decided we weren't allowed them any more.


If by thumbshifters, you mean not integrated with the brakes, I disagree. Fully integrated Rapidfires are the best type of shifters there are, IMHO. But I take your point about mud, which I resolutely refuse to interact with...


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## DCBassman (18 May 2021)

TheDoctor said:


> Still available new, although only for 5/6/7 speed rear ends (based on a quick Google) and triple fronts. 7 speed cassettes are still a thing though.


Recently bought STI-capable integrated Rapidfires for 2x8, very unusual.


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## Ian H (18 May 2021)

I'm reminded that when combined levers*, Ergos & STIs, first appeared. there seemed to be an increase in riders complaining of hand, wrist, shoulder & neck problems. The reason seemed to be that they were staying in the same position for much longer.

* I hate the word 'brifter', combining as it does 'brake' & the US English 'shifter'. GB English has 'levers'.


----------



## purpan (18 May 2021)

A good point. If we’re going to mix languages, why not mix English and French and put a « britesse » on the bars?
To be serious, there‘s something ugly about the word « brifter ». I suppose that in that sense it’s fitting.


----------



## battered (18 May 2021)

T4tomo said:


> Its got a heck of a lot of turns on it, some classic switchbacks nearer the top and a more regular corners of of varying severity thru the woods and 6-10% gradient all the way. In reduced visibility and wet roads, you'd need to be alternating on the brakes for pretty much all the 23km of descent.


Got it in one. Not technical? If that's not technical I'd like to know what is. As you say it's a classic switchback, it was thick cloud at the top, just like we get in the UK, which is indistinguishable from fog because, guess what, it's the same stuff. Max safe speed was about 10 mph, and it was raining hard. As you rightly point out, I was alternating brakes all the way down until we dropped out of the clouds and I could see where I was going. As for the worn out brakes being poor technique, it must be that both of us are equally inept because we both had worn out rear brakes. The rear of course collects the dirty water thrown up by the front. I'd like someone to tell me how you can get down that mountain without braking. On anything this side of a parachute.


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## battered (18 May 2021)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> I must be a bit unusual then because I've got four metalworking vices, three decent Records and a rough old Paramo that is fitted to a skip salvaged workmate frame with a bit of scrap 3/4" ply bolted to the top


I'm down to two. The one I use most may be pre -war, I rescued it from a factory yard. I recently made a new handle to replace the old bent one.


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## battered (18 May 2021)

TheDoctor said:


> Still available new, although only for 5/6/7 speed rear ends (based on a quick Google) and triple fronts. 7 speed cassettes are still a thing though.


I use 7 speed thumbshifters on an 8 speed cassette. Works fine, without shifting to friction. TBH I'd consider this on a round the world bike, if I wanted such a thing. Then agin, I'd choose flat bars and bar ends for a round the world bike, problem solved.


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## SkipdiverJohn (18 May 2021)

battered said:


> I'm down to two. The one I use most may be pre -war, I rescued it from a factory yard. I recently made a new handle to replace the old bent one.



You can't have too many workholding tools! By best one is a 6" Record engineers, and looks hardly used. I also have a 3 1/2" Record QR, and a 3" regular engineers. 
The latter is small and light enough to bolt to the lid of a wooden tool chest and stick in the back of my Land Rover. The Paramo I inherited and has been very well used and abused. Really it needs new jaw inserts, but it's just my rough outdoor use vice.
No modern easy-break chinese rubbish though!


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## Ming the Merciless (18 May 2021)

battered said:


> In the 1920s? 80mph on a standard machine of the time? That would have been a good trick.



The Brough Superior SS100 (Super Sports) had a 980cc V twin engine with a 3 speed gearbox.

The SS100 superseded the Brough Superior SS80 which was built from 1920.

Every Brough Superior was hand built and the purchaser was encouraged to provide input into the build. It was said no two Brough Superiors were the same.

Each Brough Superior SS100 came with a certificate guaranteeing it had achieved a speed above 100mph over a quarter mile sprint. The SS80 was guaranteed to reach 80mph, hence the names.


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## Ming the Merciless (18 May 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> I've been thinking. Always a bad idea.
> 
> Brifters are indeed a very complex engineering solution but from an ergonomic point of view they knock spots off DT levers. Just look at the level of adoption. Is that because Big Cycling has brainwashed everyone into buying an expensive but suboptimal solution? Or is it because they are a better product that is easier to use? Probably a smidge of the former and predominantly the latter.
> 
> ...



I use bar end on friction front and rear on my recumbent. It is 9 speed and fine. Occasionally I have the 10 speed wheel from my road bike fitted. It works just fine with 10 speed as well. You soon enough develop muscle memory as to how much to move the levers. If you want to change 5 or more gears quickly that’s also really easy.


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## taximan (18 May 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> Replace "far" with "slightly" and I'd agree.
> Neither is exactly hard.



Depends how old you are


----------



## Blue Hills (18 May 2021)

DCBassman said:


> If by thumbshifters, you mean not integrated with the brakes, I disagree. Fully integrated Rapidfires are the best type of shifters there are, IMHO. But I take your point about mud, which I resolutely refuse to interact with...


Got to disagree. I associate rapidfires and brakes on the same mount with cheaply kitted out bikes. And any saving is immediately wiped out if one bit of the combined get-up fails. Also far more of a problem on a tour. Brake and gear units should be separate In my view - see upthread about brifter issues.
Nothing wrong with rapidfires i stress, you can even get trimmable left ones for triples.


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## Ming the Merciless (18 May 2021)

Ian H said:


> I'm reminded that when combined levers*, Ergos & STIs, first appeared. there seemed to be an increase in riders complaining of hand, wrist, shoulder & neck problems. The reason seemed to be that they were staying in the same position for much longer.
> 
> * I hate the word 'brifter', combining as it does 'brake' & the US English 'shifter'. GB English has 'levers'.



You also see on the longer audaxers where riders are barely able to change gear with STI as they have hand and wrist weakness after so long without properly moving their hands.


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## matticus (18 May 2021)

battered said:


> The rear of course collects the dirty water thrown up by the front. I'd like someone to tell me how you can get down that mountain without braking. On anything this side of a parachute.


- Then use your rear as little as possible.(I assume you have mudguards)
- Hmmm, I would expect to use quite a lot of brakes, not none! But wearing through blocks? No.
- Your body IS a parachute. That's part of the trick.

Don't drag-brake; do all your braking in a big hit, almost to a standstill. Then let the bike get up some speed and use your god-given air-brake  If you're lucky you can time the dead-stops with the corners (harder in mist, obviously).

You need a little extra nerve to build up a decent speed in those crappy conditions, but I'm not talking about 40mph for a mile - in fact I haven't looked at my speedo in those situations so I can't say what speed I'd do, but it's a lot more than 10mph. I _love _descending in the dry, but I'm basically a coward and do NOT like wet descents. Trust me, I take due care.

This will turn into a silly dong-waving contest soon, but I'll just say that despite not being a super-experienced alpine rider, I've descended off hills taller than Ventoux, and a few long ones in the pi55ing rain. Plus plenty of really nasty UK descents.
Brake wear issues? Never. I suppose it's possible you had some dodgy materials involved (some mainstream blocks are really rubbish).

I'm sure this a pointless _noone-back-down_ type discussion now, but I think this technique might be useful advice to someone reading CChat. (I learned it from that nice engineering cycling and physics expert at the CTC - thankyou Chris!)


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## matticus (18 May 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> You also see on the longer audaxers where riders are barely able to change gear with STI as they have hand and wrist weakness after so long without properly moving their hands.


A British RAAM rider once crashed out due to this problem! Hopefully a rare occurence, but demonstrates the Law of Unintended Consequences.


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## taximan (18 May 2021)

Anyone remember 'Bike Riders Aids' free in most LBS


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## MichaelW2 (18 May 2021)

Electronic shifting solves the ergonomic and mechanical issues of brifters. "Where we're going we don't need cables"


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## GuyBoden (18 May 2021)

I don't remember getting as many punctures during my early 1980's halcyon cycling years. Were tyres better, was there just less glass and debris on the road, or am I just imagining things through better quality, well made, older, rose tinted glasses.
.......................................................................................................................................................................


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## GuyBoden (18 May 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> So bring back the lost days of no-punctures.



Yes, bring back the lost days of no-punctures.


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## matticus (18 May 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> Or maybe the danger of Extrapolating Wildly from a Single Data Point


It's not extrapolation; it's confirmation that these designs create the problem seen by hundreds of PBP etc riders described by Ming, and that _occasionally _this will spiral into a worse problem. Which would never have occurred with downtube/bar-end/Rapidfire levers!
M x


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## MichaelW2 (18 May 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> This ^
> 
> I did quite a lot of touring in the 70s and 80s. I had no idea of the brand or type of my tyres, they were just the right size tyres that I got from Halfords or somewhere. No wondering whether to have Schwalbe this or Conti that, or Gator the other, I just got some tyres. Probably the cheapest.
> 
> ...


The CTC did a survey of crank breakage. In answer to the question "Where does the crank break" the answer was, apparently, in France.


----------



## dave r (18 May 2021)

GuyBoden said:


> Yes, bring back the lost days of no-punctures.



I remember punctures in the 1980's and 1990's, but they were very rare, I remember the first puncture resistant tyres from the 1990's, Hutchinsons I think they were, the tread had a habit of parting company with the carcass of the tyre after a couple of years, but even less punctures.


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## rogerzilla (18 May 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> You also see on the longer audaxers where riders are barely able to change gear with STI as they have hand and wrist weakness after so long without properly moving their hands.


I've had that with STI (where a real hand stretch is needed to get a bigger chainring) and with DT levers. Not with bar-end shifters.


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## matticus (18 May 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> You've seen or heard of some people having hand problems - _and some of those people were using combined levers_. Ergo there must be a causal connection. There just must be. You heard of one guy crashing out of RAAM and it follows that this must have the same cause.
> 
> I suspect that there may possibly be a touch of confirmation bias at work here. But I could be wrong.
> 
> But hey, you choose products that work for you, and I'll do the same.


I'm not telling anyone to use anything. I've finished PBP and LEL with Ergos and little-to-no hand problems*. (and one PBP with DownTube shifters). I am aware that some design "flaws" just make certain problems more _likely_. On balance I prefer DT shifters - but everything has Pros and Cons. I have opinions on these - I have not stated them as cast-iron Laws of Physics**

Jeez, it's a good thing I didn't mention Jehovah ...


*Perhaps cos I was pre-warned of the issues and move my hands around a lot, I don't know.
** Drag when descending is a lot more at higher speeds - that would be more like a law of physics.


----------



## DCBassman (18 May 2021)

Of course, I have to point out that I only use flat bars. DT shifters are next to useless in that setup, in my experience, they are just too far away from the hands. And the brifters used when I did have drops weren't nearly so snappy as any thumbshifters. I've only had one bike, briefly, with separate thumbies and hydraulic discs. They were just not ergonomic for me, but of course, that's just me. I've used several sets of integrated Rapidfires/EZ-Fires, never had a problem with any, and they all just worked. The only hassle I've had is on the Scott roadie, where the MTB biased ST-EF65-9left doesn't want to play well with the pure road Sora mech. But that's it.


----------



## Smokin Joe (18 May 2021)

GuyBoden said:


> I don't remember getting as many punctures during my early 1980's halcyon cycling years. Were tyres better, was there just less glass and debris on the road, or am I just imagining things through better quality, well made, older, rose tinted glasses.
> .......................................................................................................................................................................


I've found the opposite. I think modern tyres out perform the older ones in every department, including puncture resistance. Of course as clinchers have become closer to tubulars as regards weight (No one raced on clinchers back in the day, they were far too heavy) they became more puncture prone because of the thinner carcasses but like for like modern tyres are better. I picked up many a puncture on the old tractor tyres we used on non race bikes and many a clubrun included a stop or two after a burst of bad language from somewhere down the peloton indicated that someone had found a sharp object.


----------



## tyred (18 May 2021)

As I sit looking out the window at grey skies and drizzle I have fond memories of the endless bright, warm summers of my childhood when it never rained when I went out on my bike.

They don't make weather like they used to.


----------



## Chris S (18 May 2021)

tyred said:


> I want my Kellogg's Corn Flakes spoke reflectors





Illaveago said:


> What about Smartie tops ?


Or a card stuck in the spokes to make a motorbike sound.


----------



## Drago (18 May 2021)

taximan said:


> Anyone remember 'Bike Riders Aids' free in most LBS


Of course, modern retroviral drugs mean those afflicted can still live a long life.


----------



## battered (18 May 2021)

matticus said:


> - Then use your rear as little as possible.(I assume you have mudguards)
> - Hmmm, I would expect to use quite a lot of brakes, not none! But wearing through blocks? No.
> - Your body IS a parachute. That's part of the trick.
> 
> ...


Yep, I did all this. The conditions were grim, and trust me, nobody would have been doing much better than 10mph unless they had a deathwish. You just couldn't see where the road went. I sailed past the Tommy Simpson memorial without even seeing it. There's no body parachute at that speed, and I was sitting up on a flat bar bike. Bear in mind that both of us needed new brakes at the bottom, and the tale is told. Anyone who thinks that they can do better, he my guest.


----------



## battered (18 May 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> The Brough Superior SS100 (Super Sports) had a 980cc V twin engine with a 3 speed gearbox.
> 
> The SS100 superseded the Brough Superior SS80 which was built from 1920.
> 
> ...


The Brough Superior, a standard machine? You must be joking. They were the Ferrari of the day, and every one built to order, by hand, to a specific customer specification. Standard machine, my eye. They now fetch £500k upwards. One of TE Lawrence's machines cost £150, which at that time was more than a house. Suggesting this is representative of any normal motorcycle is farcical. Most bikes of the time would do 40-50.


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## Ming the Merciless (18 May 2021)

battered said:


> The Brough Superior, a standard machine? You must be joking. They were the Ferrari of the day, and every one built to order, by hand, to a specific customer specification. Standard machine, my eye. They now fetch £500k upwards. One of TE Lawrence's machines cost £150, which at that time was more than a house. Suggesting this is representative of any normal motorcycle is farcical. Most bikes of the time would do 40-50.



Most would do 70 and were mostly the preserve of the rich


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## matticus (18 May 2021)

battered said:


> Yep, I did all this. The conditions were grim, and trust me, nobody would have been doing much better than 10mph unless they had a deathwish. You just couldn't see where the road went. I sailed past the Tommy Simpson memorial without even seeing it. There's no body parachute at that speed, and I was sitting up on a flat bar bike. Bear in mind that both of us needed new brakes at the bottom, and the tale is told. Anyone who thinks that they can do better, he my guest.


Well maybe I do have a deathwish! But the fact is I would have no concern about getting down a wet (Euro) mountain on either of my good rim-braked bikes. That is based on my experience thus far. I might be bloody miserable* , but I would have faith in my brakes. I've read quite a few accounts of folks who have drag-braked down big hills and regretted it in hindsight - I'm probably just lucky that I acquired the right knowledge before I needed to use it.

And as I said, I've seen a number of people (on UK rides) in need of new *disc*-brake pads. I cannot speak for how they came to be in that state, just saying what I've seen.

*(especially if I didn't have the right clothes, a mistake I admit to making in the past...)


----------



## Paulus (18 May 2021)

Eric Olthwaite said:


> Horizontal top tubes
> Quill stems


Don't you mean crossbars?


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## Paulus (18 May 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> Wheel nuts.


Wing nuts.


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## battered (18 May 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Most would do 70 and were mostly the preserve of the rich


70 mph? Most wouldn't, you know, pre war. The biggest machines of the inter war period might get to 70, eventually, but the vast majority of bikes were 250-350cc, and 70 was a dream. I chatted to someone recently with a 1930s Royal Enfield, 225c.f. 2 stroke, he said it would do 35 fairly comfortably, 40 at a stretch. Similarly the Ariel D, a 350 single, might see 60 with a following wind and plenty of road, but 50 was less likely to result in the thing exploding. We all know about the poster children of the time, the Broughs and Vincents, but these really were the preserve of the rich.


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## Drago (18 May 2021)

False neutrals between SA gears, jsut as you're standing on the pedals.

Dipped enamel paintwork.

Hand painted gold coachlining.


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## Ian H (18 May 2021)

These modern sloping top-tubes are awful.


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## houblon (18 May 2021)

Drago said:


> False neutrals between SA gears, jsut as you're standing on the pedals.
> 
> Dipped enamel paintwork.
> 
> Hand painted gold coachlining.



"You all right Drago? You look like you've just taken a boot in the orchestras!"
"Not so good mate, I just Sturmeyed my Archers"


----------



## battered (18 May 2021)

matticus said:


> Well maybe I do have a deathwish! But the fact is I would have no concern about getting down a wet (Euro) mountain on either of my good rim-braked bikes. That is based on my experience thus far. I might be bloody miserable* , but I would have faith in my brakes. I've read quite a few accounts of folks who have drag-braked down big hills and regretted it in hindsight - I'm probably just lucky that I acquired the right knowledge before I needed to use it.
> 
> And as I said, I've seen a number of people (on UK rides) in need of new *disc*-brake pads. I cannot speak for how they came to be in that state, just saying what I've seen.
> 
> *(especially if I didn't have the right clothes, a mistake I admit to making in the past...)


It's nothing to do with concern for getting down, and everything to do with not being able to see where the road goes. I do know how to avoid drag braking, what I don't know is where the road goes at 25-30 mph when I can't see 10 yards. You can acquire all the knowledge you want, but unless you can do switchbacks at 25mph blind or slow down a bike by telepathy, you're not getting down that bill in those conditions without taking out most of a set of brake blocks.


----------



## Hover Fly (19 May 2021)

gavroche said:


> None, new technology means improvement on the old.


W-cut chainwheels, 10 mm pitch chains, dyna-drive pedals, delta brakes, just a few items of “new“ technology from the last 30 or so years you might have difficulty getting now.


----------



## GuyBoden (20 May 2021)

It was sad to here that the superior quality Shimano UN55 BB's are not being manufactured anymore. 
(I might grab some while they are still available as old stock)


----------



## matticus (20 May 2021)

Hover Fly said:


> W-cut chainwheels, 10 mm pitch chains, dyna-drive pedals, delta brakes, just a few items of “new“ technology from the last 30 or so years you might have difficulty getting now.


and I never got to ride L-shaped cranks :'(


----------



## TheDoctor (20 May 2021)

Hover Fly said:


> W-cut chainwheels, 10 mm pitch chains, dyna-drive pedals, delta brakes, just a few items of “new“ technology from the last 30 or so years you might have difficulty getting now.


Objection! Delta brakes look amazing.
If only they actualy, you know, _worked_.


----------



## proletaratOne (20 May 2021)

rogerzilla said:


> Internally-geared hubs on kids' bikes.
> 
> Saddlebag loops on saddles.
> 
> ...


Rigid mtb
Isnt that just a gravel bike now


----------



## proletaratOne (20 May 2021)

Oldhippy said:


> Old thinking that a cycle is perfectly good transport and not just a three grand toy for the weekend that needs loads of expensive clothing to use.


Yeah I started biking as an eco friendly no consumer why to get around the city

it ended with expensive bikes shipped from all over the place, expensive electronics, and I now pack up my bike in my jeep to get out of city to find more suitable courses to train for up coming races

wtf .... I may have taken a wrong turn


----------



## dave r (20 May 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> Along the lines of things that are no longer manufacturered: Altura Winter Cruisers.
> 
> I've got some New Balance tracky bottoms as a replacement but they aren't anywhere as good.



I'm still using those, I've got a couple of pairs, I've got a couple of pairs of summer cruisers as well.


----------



## matticus (20 May 2021)

The most common [Shimano] failure I hear about is gear cable ends breaking at the end in the shifter.
(I've got a 2nd-hand 10sp brifter _combined lever_ which has just ... well, sort of worn out. The indexing or something has just got sloppy, hard to describe. No idea how many miles the bike did before me!)


----------



## proletaratOne (20 May 2021)

Eric Olthwaite said:


> Horizontal top tubes
> Quill stems


Why horizontal top tubes
Looks or something else

just curious


----------



## GuyBoden (20 May 2021)

proletaratOne said:


> Why horizontal top tubes
> Looks or something else
> 
> just curious


Obviously, because, it's makes it so much easier to squash your bo!!ocks.


----------



## matticus (20 May 2021)

proletaratOne said:


> Why horizontal top tubes
> Looks or something else
> 
> just curious


I know (100% certain) that they look better.

I believe that sloping ones were just a convenience for manufacturers, that they attempted to sell to us as an improvement on vvvvvvvery nebulous engineering ideas around stiffness.
[See also - dropped seat-stays. But I'm hoping they will be extinct in 10 years so we won't need to argue about those  ]


----------



## rogerzilla (20 May 2021)

Blame Brodie (MTBs) and Dave Lloyd (road bikes).

I agree - top tubes that slope backwards make the bike look slow. Car design for the last 30 years has gone the other way, with beltlines sloping up towards the rear to make the car look more dynamic (even if rear visibility is compromised).

Bikes with forward-sloping top tubes do exist, and they look fast.


----------



## GuyBoden (20 May 2021)

proletaratOne said:


> Why horizontal top tubes
> Looks or something else
> 
> just curious


My serious answer, is that I believe that too much seatpost showing puts more stress on the frame.


----------



## davidphilips (20 May 2021)

Just had a look at some of my older bikes and thought how nice the old engraved h/bars where.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (20 May 2021)

battered said:


> It's nothing to do with concern for getting down, and everything to do with not being able to see where the road goes. I do know how to avoid drag braking, what I don't know is where the road goes at 25-30 mph when I can't see 10 yards. You can acquire all the knowledge you want, but unless you can do switchbacks at 25mph blind or slow down a bike by telepathy, you're not getting down that bill in those conditions without taking out most of a set of brake blocks.



This is where GPS helps as you can see the hairpins, in advance, even in thick fog. So know at what point you’ll need to brake for them.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (20 May 2021)

Proper bells , none of these crappy substitutes they provide now.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (20 May 2021)

Cards and pegs on wheels so they sound like motorbikes.


----------



## southcoast (20 May 2021)

Drago said:


> False neutrals between SA gears, jsut as you're standing on the pedals.



Especially when combined with a chopper gear stick! Lol


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (20 May 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Proper bells , none of these crappy substitutes they provide now.


Took me ages to find one like that

When I got it I was disappointed to find the spinny thing and cogs were all plastic rather than metal but it works just fine to warn people
and people associate that sound with a bike - plus with some practise I can vary the noise to be more or less assertive.


----------



## tyred (20 May 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Proper bells , none of these crappy substitutes they provide now.


They're still available. I bought one for my Brompton in Halfords a few months ago and eBay is full of them.


----------



## GuyBoden (20 May 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Proper bells , none of these crappy substitutes they provide now.


You probably really need a horn with the amount of pedestrians wearing headphones.

One of these might do.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (20 May 2021)

GuyBoden said:


> You probably really need a horn with the amount of pedestrians wearing headphones.
> 
> One of these might do.
> View attachment 589741



I used to have a Tigger horn on my bike. But it sounded too much like a duck and pedestrIans would look up in the sky when I used it.


----------



## Blue Hills (20 May 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> This is where GPS helps as you can see the hairpins, in advance, even in thick fog. So know at what point you’ll need to brake for them.


Very true - i find it very useful for night riding, even with good lights.


----------



## avecReynolds531 (23 May 2021)

Centre pull brakes seem to have a timeless elegance and work well (in my experience).


----------



## davidphilips (23 May 2021)

avecReynolds531 said:


> View attachment 590262
> 
> Centre pull brakes seem to have a timeless elegance and work well (in my experience).


Really like centre pull brakes. Have said many times about there set up and how easy it is to get them to work. at least as well as the best duel pivot calipers.


----------



## fossyant (23 May 2021)

davidphilips said:


> Just had a look at some of my older bikes and thought how nice the old engraved h/bars where.



All my old Dura Ace kit has engraved "Dura Ace" on each part. The new stuff is just paint.


----------



## avecReynolds531 (24 May 2021)

This morning I read a brilliant and funny US review of a 70 + year old bike - written from the perspective of: '_The bike is almost 70 years old, but it’s so much fun to ride that it might as well have been built yesterday. So I thought it would be fun to review it as if it had.'_

Highlights include: '_Drysdale eschews run-of-the-mill carbon fiber and instead builds with an exotic ferrous material known as “steel.” The tubeset he employs is branded as “Reynolds 531” and is joined together by means of artfully sculpted junctions called “lugs,” into which the tubes are brazed.'

'The components on the Drysdale Special are no less innovative than the frame. In lieu of complicated and expensive-to-replace shifting mechanisms, the shifters on the Drysdale are entirely divorced from the brake levers and instead reside on the downtube, where the rider changes gears by means of a pair of simple, lightweight, and beautifully ornate aluminum stalks.'_

There are other comic descriptions of brakes and bottle cages.

The full piece is worth reading and has already been linked and posted at CC: https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/drysdale-special.238626/


----------



## GuyBoden (24 May 2021)

avecReynolds531 said:


> View attachment 590262
> 
> Centre pull brakes seem to have a timeless elegance and work well (in my experience).


I have centre pulls on my old Galaxy, they work well, but I brake earlier on the centre pulls. My Shimano 600 tricolor (Ultegra) are dual pivot caliper brakes and are truly excellent. Both are not as good as hydraulic disc brakes for stopping ability. 

I like the feel of the centre pulls with suicide levers, I use them to slow down way before a corner or junction, I just use them earlier.


----------



## tyred (24 May 2021)

I always think so-called suicide levers get bad press. They have a place and are convenient for controlling speed when just cruising along.


----------



## davidphilips (24 May 2021)

Only my view but i find the more modern ancillary brake levers work as well as the STIs, the only suicide lever that i could not get on with where on the gears of vintage bikes. The rear gear levers more than the front just hated them , also the front did not seem to make much of a difference only a few teeth.


----------



## taximan (24 May 2021)

Its a long time since I used those.😲


----------



## matticus (25 May 2021)

GuyBoden said:


> I like the feel of the centre pulls with suicide levers, I use them to slow down way before a corner or junction, I just use them earlier.


Yes - preferably as you are leaving the previous junction.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (26 May 2021)

I’d like to see more people wearing cycle caps


----------



## matticus (26 May 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> Some brake levers in those days had a little button to introduce a bit of slack in the system to make this easier, but not all.


Those are brilliant. (and of course Campag brifters have them too, but don't work as well). I hadn't seen them until I acquired my commuter - 2nd-hand - 4 years ago. And they're "auto-close", unlike Campag's, which is safer and quicker to work with.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (26 May 2021)

The chain guard on single speeds and hub geared bikes.


----------



## matticus (26 May 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> I’d like to see more people wearing cycle caps


In general? Or just at parties, etc?


----------



## Ming the Merciless (26 May 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> Some brake levers in those days had a little button to introduce a bit of slack in the system to make this easier, but not all.



You can still get trp levers with those buttons.


----------



## matticus (26 May 2021)

Ooh - you can indeed! Who could resist this description, I might need a lie down ..


Spoiler: Oooh



The RRL SR transcends the ages by offering a race quality lever without an integrated shifter. The classic styling trademarked by heroes of decades past make this a stylish lever for single speeds, fixed gear or custom applications. Th ergonomically shaped lever is drilled to enhance beauty while reducing weight. Hoods are flat and textured for enhanced grip. A built-in push button quick release system provides cable slack for quick wheel removal or additional tire clearance when conditions get muddy.


----------



## Drago (26 May 2021)

matticus said:


> In general? Or just at parties, etc?


During sex.


----------



## Oldhippy (26 May 2021)

Not technology as such but the view that you don't need a load of special clothing to ride a bike.


----------



## Profpointy (26 May 2021)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Suicide levers for drop bars. Very useful when pootling around.



Not sure I agree. The new style "cross
stop" levers which interrupt the
cables work extremely well, but the old extension levers didn't


----------



## Profpointy (26 May 2021)

classic33 said:


> And if it starts on your way back home, what do you do?



Stop at a nice restaurant and get your valet to fetch you in the Bentley presumably


----------



## Profpointy (26 May 2021)

Illaveago said:


> Standardisation !



Standards are great; let's have lots of 'em


----------



## Ming the Merciless (26 May 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> There's nothing stopping you from holding that view though. It's not like they've stopped selling ordinary clothes.
> 
> I suppose that's a bit like saying there's nothing stopping you from buying NOS downtube levers.



But it’s more than that. It’s a return to the majority understanding that riding a bike in your normal clothing is a perfectly fine thing to be doing. No special measures required.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (26 May 2021)

Drago said:


> During sex.



Cyclists wearing caps have better more frequent sex, go to the best parties, and are the most charismatic. Helmet wearers are the geeks of the party world, sitting quietly in the corner nursing half a lemonade.


----------



## davidphilips (26 May 2021)

Oldhippy said:


> Not technology as such but the view that you don't need a load of special clothing to ride a bike.



Some whatabe racers hold that view for sure, have been told a few times that i should wear Rapha or Castelli or some other bit of kit to look like a propper cyclist mostly because i use whatever bike i want and wear whatever i want.

My view is a proper cyclist is some one who cycles regardless of what they wear, what type of bike they use or how fast or fit they are.


----------



## Oldhippy (26 May 2021)

I think it possibly even puts a good chunk of potential cycling for transport people off as they think they need loads of day glo clobber, helmet etc before they even venture out.


----------



## davidphilips (26 May 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Cyclists wearing caps have better more frequent sex, go to the best parties, and are the most charismatic. Helmet wearers are the geeks of the party world, sitting quietly in the corner nursing half a lemonade.



Lol, Have to take issue with you there Ming, wear a helmet but when at a party i have a few full glasses of lemonade and not even the no added sugar lemonade.


----------



## LarryDuff (26 May 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Cyclists wearing caps have better more frequent sex, go to the best parties, and are the most charismatic. Helmet wearers are the geeks of the party world, sitting quietly in the corner nursing half a lemonade.


What about cyclists who wear a cap under their helmet?


----------



## tyred (26 May 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> The chain guard on single speeds and hub geared bikes.


I mostly rode my vintage Rudge roadster (with full chain case) over the winter this year and all I did was occasionally hose it down and a few drops of oil in the hubs. It's a shame that they went out of fashion.


----------



## houblon (27 May 2021)

Drago said:


> During sex.


Oh thank you Drago. I now have an image of noted Belgian Eddy Merckx, complete with sideburns and Molteni cap, addressing himself vigorously to an unshaven young lady in a third-generation VHS copy of an "adult" movie...


----------



## Mike Ayling (27 May 2021)

Metal tyre levers, the plastic ones are crap.

Mike


----------



## Blue Hills (28 May 2021)

Mike Ayling said:


> Metal tyre levers, the plastic ones are crap.
> 
> Mike


nothing at all wrong with the Blue Park ones as far as I can see. Don't bend, don't break.


----------



## ianrauk (28 May 2021)

Blue Hills said:


> nothing at all wrong with the Blue Park ones as far as I can see. Don't bend, don't break.


Agreed. Tough old buggers they are...


----------



## Blue Hills (28 May 2021)

ianrauk said:


> Agreed. Tough old buggers they are...


bloody hell, a response from the blue thing.
Yes, I have bought various supposedly clever things over the years, things that promise to make getting the tyre off easier. Many just bend. The park ones don't promise/offer the greatest leverage, they are positively stubby, but at least I know they won't bend or break. Never broken one. Surprisingly cheap for Park. No need to use anything else.
(offers for my various clever tyre levers considered)


----------



## TheDoctor (29 May 2021)

Yes, I remember those C+ levers. Still got them somewhere.
I can say that cyclists who don't wear helmets can hold their beer better, are excellent cooks, outstanding engineers, and considerate and enthusiastic lovers. Unless we've had to cycle up Preston / Benington Hill [insert local bar steward hill here].


----------



## davidphilips (30 May 2021)

Just spent ages fixing rivnuts that had come loose on a caad 9 know most if not all modern steel and titanium frames have propper threaded bosses and only my view but they where far better and never gave any trouble.


----------



## Punkawallah (2 Jun 2021)

gavroche said:


> None, new technology means improvement on the old.


Respectfully disagree. The scrapheap of history is littered with 'improvements' that weren't. The ones _we_ see are just the ones that catch on :-)

GCN have an amusing video on the topic.


----------



## Lozi (5 Jun 2021)

26" wheels so i can find tyres for my bike again


----------



## Ming the Merciless (5 Jun 2021)

LarryDuff said:


> What about cyclists who wear a cap under their helmet?



Worst of both worlds left in corner of party nursing a shandy


----------



## Ming the Merciless (5 Jun 2021)

TheDoctor said:


> Yes, I remember those C+ levers. Still got them somewhere.
> I can say that cyclists who don't wear helmets can hold their beer better, are excellent cooks, outstanding engineers, and considerate and enthusiastic lovers. Unless we've had to cycle up Preston / Benington Hill [insert local bar steward hill here].



At least they both have pubs near the top


----------



## TheDoctor (5 Jun 2021)

Indeed they do. My only gripe with the Bell at Benington is that I'd go past the Pug and Whistle at Aston to get there...


----------



## Ming the Merciless (5 Jun 2021)

TheDoctor said:


> Indeed they do. My only gripe with the Bell at Benington is that I'd go past the Pug and Whistle at Aston to get there...



But then you can stop at Pig on the way back


----------



## Punkawallah (6 Jun 2021)

Currently riding an ‘86 Dawes Renown, so have all the old tech already :-)

If I had to, I’d go for ‘style’. Carbon + Aero = Ugly. After a hot, sweaty, draining ride at least the bike would look good!


----------



## Illaveago (6 Jun 2021)

Has anyone mentioned the handlebar mounted twin bottle cages ?
When I was young I thought they were the biz!


----------



## davidphilips (6 Jun 2021)

Illaveago said:


> Has anyone mentioned the handlebar mounted twin bottle cages ?
> When I was young I thought they were the biz!



Perhaps a silly question but wonder why they are not in fashion now, they would be very easy to use?


----------



## Blue Hills (6 Jun 2021)

davidphilips said:


> Perhaps a silly question but wonder why they are not in fashion now, they would be very easy to use?


Folk would dribble over their wahoos - even more than normal.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (6 Jun 2021)

davidphilips said:


> Perhaps a silly question but wonder why they are not in fashion now, they would be very easy to use?



Because it would slow down wannabe racers by 0.000001 mph. God forbid their bike isn’t aerodynamically perfect.


----------



## Paulus (6 Jun 2021)

davidphilips said:


> Perhaps a silly question but wonder why they are not in fashion now, they would be very easy to use?


Not very aero for the carbon fibre road warriors.


----------



## Paulus (6 Jun 2021)

Fausto Coppi looking cool, with a handlebar mounted bottle holder.


----------



## Illaveago (6 Jun 2021)

davidphilips said:


> Perhaps a silly question but wonder why they are not in fashion now, they would be very easy to use?


I think I used neoprene tubing to run from the bottle so that I could drink from them on the move .


----------



## Punkawallah (6 Jun 2021)

Paulus said:


> View attachment 592460
> 
> Fausto Coppi looking cool, with a handlebar mounted bottle holder.



Coppi would make a Brompton look cool :-)


----------



## Illaveago (6 Jun 2021)

D


Punkawallah said:


> Coppi would make a Brompton look cool :-)


Did he like applying stickers to his bikes like we did when we were young ?


----------



## Ming the Merciless (6 Jun 2021)

I would like to see updated 1:100,000 cycle touring maps, like what used to be available. Great for planning and great on the road when following your nose and being flexible in your route.


----------



## Punkawallah (6 Jun 2021)

Illaveago said:


> D
> 
> Did he like applying stickers to his bikes like we did when we were young ?


Bikes applied stickers of _him_ :-)


----------



## Blue Hills (6 Jun 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> I would like to see updated 1:100,000 cycle touring maps, like what used to be available. Great for planning and great on the road when following your nose and being flexible in your route.


like goldeye maps?
pretty close scale.
Being reissued it says here.
https://www.bikeridemaps.co.uk/goldeneye-cycle-maps/
I have a few of the older ones.
I use GPS these days but they are good for seeing the big picture when sat in a pub - or getting home if a nuclear strike/battery failure interferes with your satellite comms.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (6 Jun 2021)

Blue Hills said:


> like goldeye maps?
> pretty close scale.
> Being reissued it says here.
> https://www.bikeridemaps.co.uk/goldeneye-cycle-maps/
> ...



I find GPS only good if following pre planned. They don’t add much to a tour otherwise. Certainly not nearly as much as a good scale map.


----------



## Blue Hills (6 Jun 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> I find GPS only good if following pre planned. They don’t add much to a tour otherwise. Certainly not nearly as much as a good scale map.


agree that they are no good for the big picture - for that I use a map or OSMand on a tab.


----------



## Drago (6 Jun 2021)

Two stroke cyclemotors and belstaff jackets.


----------



## cougie uk (6 Jun 2021)

GuyBoden said:


> My serious answer, is that I believe that too much seatpost showing puts more stress on the frame.



Have you broken many frames with your seatpost ? 
I've not heard of any problems.


----------



## Drago (6 Jun 2021)

Every frame failure i have personally seen, bar one, has been at the top tube/seat tube junction. A lad I went to school with is manager of a Giant franchise and he reports that is where he sees the majority of failures on metal frames.


----------



## matticus (7 Jun 2021)

Illaveago said:


> Has anyone mentioned the handlebar mounted twin bottle cages ?
> When I was young I thought they were the biz!


I think these died out in the peloton long before current aero focus, so I think there's more to it than that. We need a racing tech historian!


----------



## Illaveago (7 Jun 2021)

Punkawallah said:


> Bikes applied stickers of _him_ :-)


Ah! But we're they like skull and cross bones or Moon eyes ?


----------



## Illaveago (7 Jun 2021)

Adult bikes . Not kids bikes with 6ft seat posts.


----------



## Hover Fly (7 Jun 2021)

matticus said:


> I think these died out in the peloton long before current aero focus, so I think there's more to it than that. We need a racing tech historian!



Rene Vietto in 1939, supposedly to give better balance, he had one on the bars centrally, and one lower down. Before that it had been two on the bars giving not only a higher centre of gravity but unbalanced if one was empty and one full. See also perforated shoes, another of his innovations.


----------



## Profpointy (7 Jun 2021)

Adjustable handlebars. These modern ones can only be adjusted downwards, and even then not easily as you then have to re-adjust the bearings as well. The older style ones could go up and down with just an allen key, and without undoing the headset preload to do it. 

Granted being able to remove the bars easily is an improvement over the slit-it-and-nip-it style, but that could easily have been incorporated into the old style. OK the new type is theoretically stronger, but I never had any problems with wear or adjustment with the old style


----------



## chriswoody (7 Jun 2021)

Illaveago said:


> Has anyone mentioned the handlebar mounted twin bottle cages ?
> When I was young I thought they were the biz!



You can still buy them, not sure about the availability in the UK, but their available online here in Germany:

https://www.bike-components.de/en/Elite/L-Eroica-Double-Bottle-Cage-p47776/


----------



## Blue Hills (8 Jun 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> And with A-headsets you set your max height by cutting the steerer, and there's no going back from that (unless you want a conning tower with a stack of spacers on top of your stem). With an old style one you can go up and down as you like.
> 
> I know that there are significant engineering (and probably manufacturing) benefits to modern headsets. But I'm not an engineer and they go over my head.


Thorn seem to go for the conning tower approach with new "made to measure" bikes - looks ugly to me and have never understood - am sure being Thorn that they their theories - anyone care to pass them on?
I'm also a bit vague about the advantages of aheadsets.
Clearly you can do what you need to do with an allen key, but on tour i carry pretty compact tools that can adjust a threaded headset if needed - i once did it on a forest track north of Bury.


----------



## Drago (8 Jun 2021)

Illaveago said:


> Adult bikes . Not kids bikes with 6ft seat posts.


You got my vote.


----------



## Blue Hills (8 Jun 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> When I picked up my bike from Spa it had a stack of spacers on top of the stem. The guy said "I've left a few spacers on ..." and gave me a menacing look "... for when your back goes".
> 
> In the years since buying it I've fiddled around and moved the bars up and they are all underneath now.
> 
> ...


sorry misunderstood you - i was thinking of the stack of spacers Thorn seems to like to leave below, when I would just go for a bigger frame - but that's a separate issue of course.
On keeping the steerer with the conning tower until your back goes, is there a risk of impaling yourself on the thing?
I have two ahead bikes - both essentially cut - and several threaded headset bikes/builds - will admittedly probably have to buy new stems with latter as Ridgeback in their wisdom supplied short stem columns (or whatever they are called) as standard.
An adjustable stem would have sorted your back issues if the steerer had been cut?
I know some folk object to them - I don't.
German outlets tend to have a good range - but problematical these days of course.


----------



## Blue Hills (8 Jun 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> Some super aero bikes have integrated seat posts that are cut to height so saddle height adjustment is limited. We had a thread on here recently from someone who had bought one second hand and was having problems.


That is madness itself - remember looking at a bike recently and thinking "what if" - madness unless you are a Pro with a mega sponsorship deal. Am assuming the person you are referring to went for personal surgery as a cost-effective practical solution. Or frankenstein monster boots.


----------



## pawl (8 Jun 2021)

matticus said:


> I think these died out in the peloton long before current aero focus, so I think there's more to it than that. We need a racing tech historian!




They had tubes sticking out of the stopper.No need to remove the bottle from the cages .Good idea til you bent forward to drink.One tube up your noise the other squered your eye ball


----------



## matticus (8 Jun 2021)

chriswoody said:


> You can still buy them, not sure about the availability in the UK, but their available online here in Germany:
> 
> https://www.bike-components.de/en/Elite/L-Eroica-Double-Bottle-Cage-p47776/
> 
> View attachment 592644


Never mind the eye injuries, the biggest thing putting me off that thing is the "_L'Eroica_" branding.


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## matticus (8 Jun 2021)

Yeah but you can get top-caps with your name, or inspirational quotes embossed. We never had THAT with quill stems, did we? Hmm?!


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## chriswoody (8 Jun 2021)

Forget your messages and compasses, you can buy stem caps that will open a bottle of beer. 

Now try doing that with a quill stem!


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## Oldhippy (8 Jun 2021)

Not that's what I call a good idea!


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## Oldhippy (8 Jun 2021)

Now I meant.


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## C R (8 Jun 2021)

chriswoody said:


> Forget your messages and compasses, you can buy stem caps that will open a bottle of beer.
> 
> Now try doing that with a quill stem!
> 
> View attachment 592818


Though opening the bottle like that is going to pour half of it down the head tube.


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## Ming the Merciless (8 Jun 2021)

Bottle opener on key ring. None of this headcap rubbish


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## Blue Hills (8 Jun 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> It may be a better design from a bearing engineering point of view, as those who like to go on about false brinelling and water ingress and so on will be keen to tell you, but it's definitely inferior from an adjustability point of view.


have never had a bearing issue with threaded, despite at times scandalous lack of maintenance.
grease and passable seals will avoid water issues - helped of course if you use mudguards.
Only time i have ever had a headset bearing issue was on an integrated ahead-style headset with cartridge bearings on a dahon sports bike - they totally disentegrated.
In my view the toughest headsets use ball bearings on steel races. near bombproof.


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## Ajax Bay (8 Jun 2021)

@davidphilips - you deserve a (lauding) clap on the back for this thread:
What old cycling technology etc would you like to see return?
which captures the zeitgeist of CycleChat 2021 - 25 pages!


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## houblon (8 Jun 2021)

Blue Hills said:


> sorry misunderstood you - i was thinking of the stack of spacers Thorn seems to like to leave below, when I would just go for a bigger frame - but that's a separate issue of course.
> On keeping the steerer with the conning tower until your back goes, is there a risk of impaling yourself on the thing?
> I have two ahead bikes - both essentially cut - and several threaded headset bikes/builds - will admittedly probably have to buy new stems with latter as Ridgeback in their wisdom supplied short stem columns (or whatever they are called) as standard.
> An adjustable stem would have sorted your back issues if the steerer had been cut?
> ...


Friend of mine just got a new bike from Thorn and, right enough, there's a Pisa Tower of spacers under the stem. Ugly as ugly can be, why not a longer head tube? Me, I like the Aheadset but it does mean you have to buy the right size frame. As of course you did with quill stems that weren't all that adjustable, really, regardless of the look back bores.


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## Illaveago (9 Jun 2021)

Polished alloy large flange hubs . I think they add a nice finishing touch to a classic bike .


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## Smokin Joe (9 Jun 2021)

houblon said:


> Me, I like the Aheadset but it does mean you have to buy the right size frame. As of course you did with quill stems that weren't all that adjustable, really, regardless of the look back bores.


You are right there, they had very little adjustment available.


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## Ming the Merciless (9 Jun 2021)

27 x 1 1/4 “ wheels. Let’s take back control.


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## houblon (9 Jun 2021)

Ajax Bay said:


> @davidphilips - you deserve a (lauding) clap on the back for this thread:
> What old cycling technology etc would you like to see return?
> which captures the zeitgeist of CycleChat 2021 - 25 pages!


Aye. I was much faster and thinner when my bike had quill stems, downtube shifters and Delta brakes, so bring em back! Along with the good tunes from the 60s/70s/80s (select according to which decade I lost my virginity)


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## matticus (10 Jun 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> I always used to think those band things on hubs were elastic bands put there by wheelbuilders as a kind of ship-in-a-bottle how-did-that-get-there puzzle.


I'm the world's worst diy, craftsman OR model-maker - yet even *I* can see how the wheelbuilder would fit such a thing!


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## GuyBoden (3 Apr 2022)

I liked the screw on the old front derailleur cage, that allowed you to remove the front derailleur, without removing the chain.

Having removed and installed a new front derailleur today, this feature would have made it simpler.


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## Ming the Merciless (3 Apr 2022)

GuyBoden said:


> I liked the screw on the old front derailleur cage, that allowed you to remove the front derailleur, without removing the chain.
> 
> View attachment 638469



You still can by undoing the bolt that holds the two sides of the cage together. That bolt hasn’t gone away, least not on the front derailleur I have.


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## Ming the Merciless (3 Apr 2022)

matticus said:


> I'm the world's worst diy, craftsman OR model-maker - yet even *I* can see how the wheelbuilder would fit such a thing!



Something to do with putting rubber band round hub before you lace wheel up methinks.


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## GuyBoden (4 Apr 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> You still can by undoing the bolt that holds the two sides of the cage together. That bolt hasn’t gone away, least not on the front derailleur I have.


That's good to know, but it's not a feature available on the five new(ish) FD's I have.


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## galaxy (4 Apr 2022)

Nice road surfaces


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## Cycleops (4 Apr 2022)

GuyBoden said:


> That's good to know, but it's not a feature available on the five new(ish) FD's I have.


With nearly all chains coming with a spring/quick link now it's an outdated feature.


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## GuyBoden (4 Apr 2022)

Cycleops said:


> With nearly all chains coming with a spring/quick link now it's an outdated feature.


Yes, I thought that too.


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