# He's doesn't own a Fiat Punto



## thom (18 Oct 2012)

Gazetta report today on the Padua case being brought against Ferrari.
No translation other than through Google but this could be huge .

"It is the largest investigation doping in sports history, far beyond the Operacion Puerto. Thousands of pages of documents, reports, and environmental wiretaps, searches and international letters rogatory in Switzerland, the Principality of Monaco and Spain."

Looks like they are exposing a cross border system of payments that amounts technically to money laundering, in order to give payment to Ferrari.
Scarponi fingered. Astana and Radioshack as teams. About 20 teams have had to submit their rider contracts for scrutiny in order to trace the flow of cash.

Anyone got a good translation ?

Edit : cycling news write up


----------



## rich p (18 Oct 2012)

This could be massive if it nails team doping and names riders too. The peloton could be short of a few riders nextyear. I'm going to start training now.
Operacion Puerto is still rumbling away too IIRC.


----------



## Flying_Monkey (18 Oct 2012)

The rider specifically implicated include: "Michele Scarponi, Denis Menchov, Alexandre Kolobnev, Vladimir Gusev, Vladimir Karpets, Mikhail Ignatiev, Evgeni Petrov and Alberto Ongarato." There does seem to be one obvious statistical observation one could make there... if of course that were all the riders, which I don't think it is by a long shot. It may say more about the Gazzetta's willingness to finger Italians other than Scarponi, who everyone already knows is dodgy. But I can't say anyone will be surprised about the large number of riders from ex-Soviet states with all their special programs that would hardly have just melted away with the collapse of communist regimes.


----------



## thom (18 Oct 2012)

Popovich & Pellizotti too


----------



## Crackle (18 Oct 2012)

No real surprises in the names so far.


----------



## thom (19 Oct 2012)

Scarponi, Menchov (ex Rabobank), Astana, RadioShack:
"(Scarponi) tells Ferrari that he could have won the Giro and Ferrari replies that if he'd had another bag, he could have had a chance," _Gazzetta_ reports the police report as saying.


----------



## Crackle (19 Oct 2012)

I was just going to post that story. All on tape from his campervan being bugged, whoops.


----------



## thom (19 Oct 2012)

Crackle said:


> I was just going to post that story. All on tape from his campervan being bugged, whoops.


It's amazing. Not having a test for autologous blood doping, you have to find a different route to get convictions but it's a bit snazzy. I wonder how they managed to bug Ferrari's camper van. 
It's great the Italian judiciary are going for this - there seems to be stronger laws in play here rather than Spain. 
But as far as blood doping goes, detection via profiling seems to be about odd jumps in reticulocyte levels or other components as indicators and perhaps an additional overlay of expected deterioration of oxygen carrying capacity over 3 weeks. If a rider were to dope a small amount on a daily basis through 3 weeks, you probably would never be able to detect it. Unless the plasticisers from the bags shows up.

Makes you very sceptical about Grand Tour winners (and I don't mean Brad, despite the cyclismas thing a couple of days ago...).


----------



## Red Light (19 Oct 2012)

thom said:


> Makes you very sceptical about Grand Tour winners (and I don't mean Brad, despite the cyclismas thing a couple of days ago...).


 
I suspect Wiggo is now out of the SPOTY - the public are just not going to vote for cycling.


----------



## johnr (20 Oct 2012)

thom said:


> Scarponi, Menchov (ex Rabobank), Astana, RadioShack:
> "(Scarponi) tells Ferrari that he could have won the Giro and Ferrari replies that if he'd had another bag, he could have had a chance," _Gazzetta_ reports the police report as saying.


 Now getting 'page not available on our server' message... perhaps someone sent the boys round to have a quiet chat?


----------



## thom (20 Oct 2012)

johnr said:


> Now getting 'page not available on our server' message... perhaps someone sent the boys round to have a quiet chat?


fixed


----------



## johnr (22 Oct 2012)

thom said:


> fixed


 Thanks. Doesn't get any better does it?

It's looking more and more like root and branch reform is all that can be entertained. Whether in the US or Europe, the sport seems riddled, not just with cheats, but out and out crooks.


----------



## ufkacbln (22 Oct 2012)

thom said:


> It's amazing. Not having a test for autologous blood doping, you have to find a different route to get convictions but it's a bit snazzy. I wonder how they managed to bug Ferrari's camper van.


 
There is a test, but it is unfortunately not yet fully accepted.

There are various agents in the blood that change once blood is taken outside the body. In stored blood these deteriorate, so levels are lower.

Low levels in a blood test indicate blood transfusion, whether it is from the rider themselves, or a donor is realy irrelevant.


----------



## thom (29 Oct 2012)

Tony Rominger denies involvement in money laundering etc.


----------



## johnr (30 Oct 2012)

I think we should make Mandy Rice Davis (she of the quote in the Profumo affair: 'well he would, wouldn't he') patron saint of the forum.


----------



## thom (31 Oct 2012)

Inrng article on blood doping & Michele Lamborghini : DIY Dracula


----------



## asterix (31 Oct 2012)

thom said:


> It's great the Italian judiciary are going for this - there seems to be stronger laws in play here rather than Spain.


 
I wouldn't mess with any judiciary that can pin Silvio Berlusconi to the wall..


----------



## thom (1 Nov 2012)

Apparently 17 riders, 12 current, have been implicated in the Padua investigation.


----------



## johnr (2 Nov 2012)

thom said:


> Apparently 17 riders, 12 current, have been implicated in the Padua investigation.


I once spent 8 hours memorising 'io o il mal de gola' (I have got a sore throat) from a phrase book. I was in Bari waiting for a ferry. That's all the Italian I know. But thanks for the post.

When the pharmacy opened, I only got as far as 'io o...' before the assistant said, '... il mal de gola?'.

My Italian is obviously impeccible.


----------



## thom (3 Nov 2012)

The Padua investigation is shedding light into other dark corners of cycling, in particular a story about Vino paying Kolobnev to let/help him win Liege/Bastogne/Liege in 2010:
Through the google translator:

The first € 100,000 dated July 12, 2010, the second of 50 000 of 28 December. For the prosecution of Padua there is enough to conclude that "the task has gathered conclusive evidence - written power of attorney in the attached document to the file sent to the Belgian and Swiss -, Vinokourov to Kolobnev has promised and paid 150 000 euro to to ensure victory in the competition, so as to reach a different result from the proper and fair conduct of the competition. "


----------



## rich p (3 Nov 2012)

What are the rules regarding deals struck on the road?


----------



## ColinJ (3 Nov 2012)

rich p said:


> What are the rules regarding deals struck on the road?


I don't know what the rules say about it, but it is bad enough having dopers cheating clean riders of wins, without having dopers bribing other riders to let them win!

If they get away with this kind of thing, we might as well say that the races are redundant and the winner will be the person willing to risk injecting the most toxic cocktail of drugs and in the case of a tie, the winner will be the person with the most money!


----------



## rich p (3 Nov 2012)

Well, that's always gone on to a certain extent, albeit with smaller amounts, but I'm interested to know what the rules are and whether they were broken.


----------



## ColinJ (3 Nov 2012)

rich p said:


> Well, that's always gone on to a certain extent, albeit with smaller amounts, but I'm interested to know what the rules are and whether they were broken.


UCI rules:

*12.1.004 (1) Anyone who behaves in an incorrect or dishonest fashion with regard to any other, or who fails*
*to keep a promise or to meet contractual or other obligations in the domain of cycling shall be*
*penalised by a suspension of up to three months and/or a fine of between CHF 100 and CHF*
*10,000. *

*12.1.005 Anyone subject to UCI Regulations shall be suspended for a minimum of one and a maximum of six*
*months, who:*
1. behaves in a violent manner or uses defamatory or abusive language to or about a commis-
saire, a UCI body or its members or, in general, anyone performing a function provided for in
the UCI Constitution or Regulations,* or*
*2. behaves in such a way as to blemish the image, the reputation or the interests of cycling or the*
*UCI, *or
3. without valid reason, fails to respond when convened or summoned by a UCI authority or disci-
plinary body.


----------



## rich p (3 Nov 2012)

A bit woolly that. I'm not condoning it but I just want to clarify the breakage of the rules.


----------



## ColinJ (3 Nov 2012)

rich p said:


> A bit woolly that. I'm not condoning it but I just want to clarify the breakage of the rules.


That's the best I could find in hundreds of pages of waffle, without spending hours reading every word of it!


----------



## thom (3 Nov 2012)

2133168 said:


> Taking a wild guess here, I'd suggest waiting till he is not in it, break in and plant the listening devices.


Great insight. Do the police need a warrant in the UK if they want to break into a vehicle (as opposed to a house) ? Might just be an external bug - who knows ?


----------



## rich p (3 Nov 2012)

ColinJ said:


> That's the best I could find in hundreds of pages of waffle, without spending hours reading every word of it!


Thanks for your efforts Col! More legwork than I could be bothered to do. CyclingNews or inrng will have a précis soon enough!


----------



## johnr (3 Nov 2012)

I think the main thing about the Liege-Bastogne-Liege fix is the sum involved. It takes it out of the realm of deals on the road and into the realm of criminal activity. The payment schedule involved perhaps indicates a sophisticated system of premeditated race-fixing (unless those people on the motorbikes are accountants and lawyers of course).. This could be the cycling equivalent of Italian football scandals.

Anone know if there are betting syndicates covering cycling in the same way?


----------



## thom (3 Nov 2012)

2133290 said:


> My understanding is that, in this country, putting a device into a person's vehicle is intrusive surveillance in the same way as if it were their house, they are both environments where a person has a reasonable expectation of a high degree of privacy. The property interference requires a Police Act authority. The resultant surveillance requires a RIPA authorisation.Putting a device externally is not considered intrusive and would only require a RIPA authority. Other countries would have different laws but within the EU it all stems from Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights, so should be similar. Monkey is the expert on this stuff though.


Wow, 6 sentences, I feel like this is a record for an @User reply ;-)


----------



## Flying_Monkey (3 Nov 2012)

2133290 said:


> My understanding is that, in this country, putting a device into a person's vehicle is intrusive surveillance in the same way as if it were their house, they are both environments where a person has a reasonable expectation of a high degree of privacy. The property interference requires a Police Act authority. The resultant surveillance requires a RIPA authorisation.Putting a device externally is not considered intrusive and would only require a RIPA authority. Other countries would have different laws but within the EU it all stems from Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights, so should be similar. Monkey is the expert on this stuff though.


 
That's pretty much how I would read it. In the US, there has been a lot more back and fro in the courts about whether police use of GPS tracking constitutes an unlawful search under the 4th Amendment to the Constitution, and therefore would need a judicial warrant. The Supreme Court ruled in January that the placing of a GPS tracking device on a vehicle does need a warrant. However the Appeals Court ruled in August that they do not need a warrant to monitor a cellphone's GPS signal.


----------



## johnr (4 Nov 2012)

The story makes the mainstream press
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/nov/03/alexandr-vinokourov-cycling-classic


----------



## rich p (4 Nov 2012)

johnr said:


> I think the main thing about the Liege-Bastogne-Liege fix is the sum involved. It takes it out of the realm of deals on the road and into the realm of criminal activity. The payment schedule involved perhaps indicates a sophisticated system of premeditated race-fixing (unless those people on the motorbikes are accountants and lawyers of course).. This could be the cycling equivalent of Italian football scandals.
> 
> Anone know if there are betting syndicates covering cycling in the same way?


 
_The first email was sent on 26 April 2010, the day after the race, from Kolobnev, 31, who rides for Team Katusha, to Vinokourov. Kolobnev allegedly wrote: "Remember well, I had a great chance … I didn't do it for the contract but rather for the situation you found yourself in_

This suggests that the first email was actually after the event so it doesn't preclude an 'on-the-road' fix but the translation is a bit clunky and may hint at a premeditated contract I suppose.
If it nails Vino, I won't be unhappy whatever!


----------



## Crackle (4 Nov 2012)

Same story in roadcc

http://road.cc/content/news/69949-vinokourov-paid-rival-emails-and-bank-transfers-prove

120K for a classic


----------



## Noodley (4 Nov 2012)

I wonder if he'd pay me some cash for not entering the race in the first place thereby making his win easier?


----------



## johnr (4 Nov 2012)

From the roadcc story:

_UCI spokesman Enrico Carpani said the governing body had asked L'illustre for evidence of the case two years ago but were turned down. "It's a very old story," he told the Guardian_.

Well that's a relief. A thorough probe, file closed. I wonder whether Vino had a trip to Geneva to make a donation to the UCI's gumshoe department?

This is fantastic: UCI's total lack of concern for criminality in their sport; a doper with powerful government connections buys a classic; plucky little Belgium humiliated (again); no obvious international investigative body to interfere with pesky rules - this one will run and run.

PS will Sky be asking to see Uran Uran's post olympics bank staqtements?


----------



## ufkacbln (4 Nov 2012)

Interesting article here

This suggests that it is covered by the UCI



> *1.2.081* Riders shall sportingly defend their own chances. Any collusion or behaviour likely to falsify or go against the interests of the competition shall be forbidden.


 
This seems to be the popular consensus as to the committed offence

What is going to be a real question as posed by the article is whether in the purest form two teams working together in a breakaway is "collusion". The article cites other examples as well


The other angle is the gambling one, but again it is unclear as to whether this applies if it was not part of a gambling sting



> *1.2.030* Anyone subject to the UCI regulations may not be involved directly or indirectly in the organisation of bets on cycling competitions, under penalty of a suspension of between 8 days and one year and/or a fine of CHF 2,000 to 200,000.


----------



## thom (4 Nov 2012)

2134470 said:


> I would have thought most would see that as the best way to defend their individual interests at that time. It is how they behave when it comes to the sprint at the end that matters.


The temporary road alliances that form and play out on the road are there for all to see - chess on wheels etc... Swiss bank transfers are less obvious.


----------



## thom (5 Nov 2012)

The UCI are launching an investigation into Vino's alleged antics.
Through google translate :
"We have the file well received by the public prosecutor of Padua and it will open an investigation. Messrs Vinokourov and Kolobnev be as fast as possible, invited to be accountable," said the UCI.


----------



## Orbytal (5 Nov 2012)

Mr Ferrari has already managed to evade charges in the past albeit on appeal! Maybe he has a secret formula?

Also Russian money being chased by a Court in Italy all makes the mind boggle, both do not have great images of being too wholesome in the past!


----------



## johnr (8 Nov 2012)

This is the UCI press release
http://www.uci.ch/Modules/ENews/ENe...s/UCI/UCI8/layout.asp?MenuID=MTYzMDQ&LangId=1


----------



## rich p (10 Dec 2014)

Astana and Vino may still get nailed for team sponsored doping
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/astana-accused-of-systematic-doping

It surely makes their licence application a bit more doubtful


----------



## ColinJ (11 Dec 2014)

rich p said:


> Astana and Vino may still get nailed for team sponsored doping
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/astana-accused-of-systematic-doping
> 
> It surely makes their licence application a bit more doubtful


Apparently not!


----------



## wam68 (8 Jan 2015)

rich p said:


> This could be massive if it nails team doping and names riders too. The peloton could be short of a few riders nextyear. I'm going to start training now.
> Operacion Puerto is still rumbling away too IIRC.


Very good. I'll do domestique. Any other bidders out there.


----------

