# Hi-Viz jackets and cycling in France?



## Chrisz (28 Apr 2009)

Anyone know the requirements please?

I'm doing a sponsored ride very soon in France and the topic has reared it's ugly head - some clarification needed on the actual laws please?


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## yello (28 Apr 2009)

Compulsory at night, or in poor visibility, outside of towns.

Obligation pour tout cycliste circulant hors agglomération, de nuit ou de jour si visibilité mauvaise , de porter un gilet er rétro-réfléchissant à partir du 1 septembre 2008. L’obligation s’applique aussi au passager éventuel.


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## Chrisz (28 Apr 2009)

Cheers mate,

That's how I interpreted it but needed to make sure


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## jay clock (28 Apr 2009)

"hors agglomération" has a specific legal meaning. It means when you see a sign with the name of the town crossed out in red, you have left the built up area. So when you go into town, the sign giving the name means the vest is no longer needed


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## Chrisz (29 Apr 2009)

Confused again now. Jackets required outside of town regardless of daylight/visibility??


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## andym (29 Apr 2009)

No. Jackets required outside of cities/towns/villages at night and in poor visibility. Not required in cities/towns/villages even at night or in poor visibility. Common sense rule of thumb: where there's no street lighting.

Edit: D'Oh! I thought misread the previous post - what yello said.


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## yello (29 Apr 2009)

Chrisz said:


> Confused again now. Jackets required outside of town regardless of daylight/visibility??



Don't be confused! Your original interpretation is correct. The hi-viz needs only be worn at night/poor visibility outside of towns.

jc is just clarifying the legal boundary of a town (agglomération). You see those signs marking the legal boundary when entering/leaving a town. All he's saying is that you can take off your high-viz (if you wish!) at that point... *if* you had been wearing one because it's night or poor visibility.


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## MockCyclist (29 Apr 2009)

OK, now we've had the legal definition of a town, what actually constitutes hi-viz?

I have a yellow waterproof cycling jacket which is the same shade of yellow as a hi-viz Hertz waistcoat I have. It doesn't have reflective strips (nor does the waistcoat). Will it count as hi-viz ?


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## grhm (29 Apr 2009)

I suspect (but would get clarification) that the "rétro-réfléchissant" part means the jacket has to have some retro reflectives on it. This is usally a mandated-width tape on hi-viz jackets - I see nothing about the shade, colour, or flouresence in what Yello has posted (but my French is rusty and IANAL).


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## Bodhbh (29 Apr 2009)

MockCyclist said:


> OK, now we've had the legal definition of a town, what actually constitutes hi-viz?
> 
> I have a yellow waterproof cycling jacket which is the same shade of yellow as a hi-viz Hertz waistcoat I have. It doesn't have reflective strips (nor does the waistcoat). Will it count as hi-viz ?


I was wondering this. I have a yellowish waterproof with a v small amount of thin reflective trimming, and a cameo jacket with lots of trimming all over and great reflective backpanels. Neither one I think might be technically high-viz, athough both are probably fine at night with all the lights and reflectives on the bike.


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## andym (29 Apr 2009)

IIRC the requirement for the hi-viz gilet was brought in as an addon to a regulation requiring motorists to carry these and use them in the event of a breakdown. The motorists regulation does call up the European standard but the cyclists requirement doesn't. Personally I think the simplest solution is to just carry a little reflective gilet is - my Decathlon cheap one weighs in at 150 grams, but you can get mesh ones that are probably even lighter.


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## yello (29 Apr 2009)

andym said:


> IIRC the requirement for the hi-viz gilet was brought in as an addon to a regulation requiring motorists to carry these and use them in the event of a breakdown.



It certainly came in at the same time but I can't honestly say that I know whether the requirements are the same. I suspect they are so if you get a legal 'breakdown' gilet it will probably also suffice for bike use. I have seen/read an actual document on the web stipulating the width and number of reflective stripes... I'll see if I can find it again.

From memory, the yellow-fluro bit is as you like, it's the reflectives stripes that make the gilet legal or otherwise. 

They're sold all over the place, not just bike stores so you should have no difficulty getting one here... but they're not the best fitting of garments! I had my wife cut down and re-sew my old motorbike one (from the UK) because I hated it flapping around!


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## andrew_s (30 Apr 2009)

From what I remember when I looked up the legislation, the jacket has to meet EN417.
All of the workman style ones are OK, but there aren't many that you would wear as a cycling gilet in the UK. I've seen a Santini one on a French website, but that's all (link somewhere in the CTC forum).


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## ASC1951 (30 Apr 2009)

yello said:


> L’obligation s’applique aussi au passager eventuel.


Does this mean les flics will have a crack squad to chase down tandems?


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## andym (30 Apr 2009)

I've uploaded the pdf of the guidance from the French government (thanks to http://www.thisfrenchlife.com/thisfrenchlife/2008/05/warning-triangl.html).

There is detailed guidance for drivers, which among other things says that the gilet must be CE-marked.

The guidance for cyclists is in a separate section and says:



> ET NOS AMIS CYCLISTES ?
> Obligation pour tout cycliste circulant hors agglomération, de nuit ou de jour si visibilité mauvaise , de porter un gilet
> rétro-réfléchissant à partir du 1er septembre 2008. L’obligation s’applique aussi au passager éventuel.



There is no reference to the EN - I don't know whether this reflects the text of the original réglementation. However given that in the rest of the document the authors have specified the need for equipment to conform to European standards, there may well be a reason why they are not mentioned here. On the other hand I'm not sure I'd want to argue the point at the end of a long day. As it is, my Decathlon gilet is CE marked as conforming to EN471-03 so I'm alright Jack. 

My gilet is very similar to other cycling gilets, and I suspect that most cycling high-vis gilets available in the UK meet the EN.

EDIT: OK if anyone wants to get really geeky about this the obligation comes from a decision taken at a meeting of the Comité Interministériel de la Sécurité Routière on the 18 February. The press dossier is here:

http://www2.securiteroutiere.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf/DP_cisr_13_02_08.pdf

The important bit is on page 12. 

Interestingly (or confusingly, if you're the original poster) the wording of the decision is different:



> Les cyclistes sont très peu visibles de nuit, tout particulièrement hors agglomération en l’absence d’éclairage public.
> 
> Le Comité interministériel de la sécurité routière décide de rendre obligatoire le port d’un gilet rétro-réfléchissant par tout cycliste de nuit hors agglomération à compter du 1er septembre 2008.
> 
> Les cyclistes qui ne porteraient pas de gilet seront passibles d’une contravention de la deuxième classe.



.. no reference to poor visibility.

The requirements for drivers stem from a European directive (hence the reference to European standards) while the requirements for cyclists are purely national so it is possible that the legal requirments are indeed different. But it's probably still simpler to carry a gilet for emergencies.


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## Danny (30 Apr 2009)

Is this law actually enforced, and why doesn't it apply to cycling in towns?


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## andym (4 May 2009)

Danny said:


> Is this law actually enforced, and why doesn't it apply to cycling in towns?



Cyclists outside towns were perceived to be at greatest danger because of the lack of street lighting.


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## andrew_s (4 May 2009)

andrew_s said:


> From what I remember when I looked up the legislation, the jacket has to meet EN417.
> All of the workman style ones are OK, but there aren't many that you would wear as a cycling gilet in the UK. I've seen a Santini one on a French website, but that's all (link somewhere in the CTC forum).



The actual legislation (here, Article 20) reads


> Lorsqu'ils circulent la nuit, ou le jour lorsque la visibilité est insuffisante, tout conducteur et passager d'un cycle doivent porter hors agglomération un gilet de haute visibilité conforme à la réglementation et dont les caractéristiques sont prévues par un arrêté du ministre chargé des transports.



"At night, or during the day if the visibility is poor, all cyclists must wear a hi-viz jacket outside built-up areas "

Santini gilet (at €60).


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## yello (4 May 2009)

EN471 is the standard that any hi-viz gilet/jacket must conform too. Simply google EN471 and you'll get loads of hits... this one for instance.

They are sold in France for as little as €2.50 for a basic, no-frills version but you can spend a great deal more... €150 for a waterproof jacket for instance


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## andym (4 May 2009)

yello said:


> EN471 is the standard that any hi-viz gilet/jacket must conform too. Simply google EN471 and you'll get loads of hits... this one for instance.
> 
> They are sold in France for as little as €2.50 for a basic, no-frills version but you can spend a great deal more... €150 for a waterproof jacket for instance



Yello - sorry to be pedantic, but your post actually illustrates why it's not a hypothetical issue: the jacket you link to actually meets EN 1150 and _*not*_ EN471 (download the _fiche produit_) . The article that Andrew links to (great detective work Andrew) does not include any reference to EN471 - and simply provides for the the minister to issue an arrêté. As the article stands, the jacket/gilet you link could well be legal even though it doesn't conform to EN471 .


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## yello (4 May 2009)

With regard to cyclists being done for not wearing one, I have not heard/read of it happening. Doesn't mean it hasn't though! I reckon you're more likely to be 'on the spot' sold a gilet rather than fined. 

You will see _a lot_ of drivers with the gilet over the seat, much to the amusement of some newspaper columnists. There's even a piss-take name given to such drivers! It started when police were randomly stopping drivers to check they had the gilet, triangle, etc - people wanted to avoid being stopped I guess.


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## yello (4 May 2009)

andym said:


> Yello - sorry to be pedantic, but your post actually illustrates why it's not a hypothetical issue: the jacket you link to actually meets EN 1150 and _*not*_ EN471 (download the _fiche produit_) . The article that Andrew links to (great detective work Andrew) does not include any reference to EN471 - and simply provides for the the minister to issue an arrêté. As the article stands, the jacket/gilet you link could well be legal even though it doesn't conform to EN471 .



Now that's interesting. I took the link from an article on the regulations in the FFCTs monthly mag. It was that article that said EN471, I wouldn't know one EN number from another! (FFCT is France's CTC). If the FFCT are getting it wrong then there is confusion!

Edit: Just looked at the mag again. EN1150 is a different standard, the basic and legal €2.50 gilet conforms to EN471. What the difference between the 2 standards is, I don't know... but you've got me interested now and I'm going to find out!


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## andym (4 May 2009)

yello said:


> Now that's interesting. I took the link from an article on the regulations in the FFCTs monthly mag. It was that article that said EN471, I wouldn't know one EN number from another! (FFCT is France's CTC). If the FFCT are getting it wrong then there is confusion!



Well they are probably in a much better position than I am to say, and I don't know whether there's an arrété a or what it says. Certainly there would be a problem if a cyclist bough a gilet that complied with EN1150 and then found that it didn't meet the French law.

For the record, after a quick look at EN 1150 it seems to require 25 square centimetres of retroreflective material with a minimum width of 25mm (so that rules out reflective piping), while according to the document you linked to, EN 471 requires that a garment has to have 0.13 square metres of refective material. Now it's near my bedtime, but I think this equals 130 square centimetres.

http://www.safeways.nl/files/Word en tekst bestanden/DIN EN 1150_engl (2).pdf


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## andym (4 May 2009)

I've just seen your edit. in terms of reflectiveness, I don't think it is correct to say that EN1150 is a higher standard (assuming my maths is correct!).


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## yello (4 May 2009)

Blimey, this is getting weirder! I'm not sure there is actually a legal standard encoded in French law! Only that the hi-viz must conform to *a* standard 

Further, the 2 EN standards are quite different in purpose, though dealing with similar issues; that is, visibility . EN471 applies to professional usage hi-viz (road workers etc I guess) and EN1150 is non-professional use. 

I have seen text stating (here for instance) stating that it's either/or situation... so long as your hi-viz conforms to one or the other standard then it's fine. 

But I've also find reference to a requirement to adhere to a European directive 89 / 686 / EEC.... this is to do with personal safety equipment... but I'm getting tired and baffled! I shall continue my search tomorrow!!

In short, I reckon you'd be okay with either 471 or 1150.


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## yello (4 May 2009)

Okay, not "higher" standard... just different! There certainly seems to be more reflective strip on a 471 than a 1150... but whether that's better/worse/faster/stronger etc, who knows!


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## Chrisz (4 May 2009)

Cheers guys but feck all that pallava!!

I have gone and got myself some self-adhesive reflective tape (love ebay sometimes) of roughly the correct width which I have studiously applied to my flo-yellow shower jacket in a vague gilet-style manner. It won't conform to any EU stndard number but I have figured that there will be some 300-odd of us on the road each day so les flics will hopefully leave us alone


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## andym (4 May 2009)

yello said:


> But I've also find reference to a requirement to adhere to a European directive 89 / 686 / EEC.... this is to do with personal safety equipment... but I'm getting tired and baffled! I shall continue my search tomorrow!!
> 
> In short, I reckon you'd be okay with either 471 or 1150.



I think you're probably right on the first point. Apart from anything else, if the French government did require that people had to wear gilets complying with EN 471 and not EN 1150 then manufacturers of cycling kit in other countries could complain that this was a barrier to trade and the European Commission/European Court could, potentially, rule it invalid as in breach of European treaties.

As to the directive on personal protective equipment. I think the short answer to this is that it's a red herring. This directive is the counterpart to another european directive on the use of persoanal protective equipment at work Basically this latter directive was intended to ensure that all workers in the European Union were subject to the minimum safety standards. If for example you require all building workers to wear hard hats then clearly you need to ensure that there is a common minimum standard for helmets. This is where the product safety directives come in, but IIRC they only apply to people at work. So for example there are different standards for cycle or riding helmets or high-viz clothing for runners and cyclists.


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## yello (5 May 2009)

I couldn't see that the reference to the European directive was directly relevant either. But I'm coming to the conclusion that there is no directly applicable standard or regulation for a cyclist's hiz-viz anyway! So I reckon several where kind of rounded up and thrust forward as options. Then different authorities and advisory bodies have tried to be conclusive and it's kind of just confused the situation.

I do think though that in practice the situation is simply stated as either EN471 or EN1150. 



Chrisz said:


> I have gone and got myself some self-adhesive reflective tape (love ebay sometimes) of roughly the correct width which I have studiously applied to my flo-yellow shower jacket in a vague gilet-style manner.



And that'll be ok too I reckon! 



> It won't conform to any EU stndard number but I have figured that there will be some 300-odd of us on the road each day so les flics will hopefully leave us alone



They'll be concerned for your safety only. They'll not be bothered if your gilet doesn't quite conform, so long as it's visible.

French laws are often differently interpreted region-by-region anyway, very 'laissez faire' in practice. It sounds like a recipe for disaster, and it sometimes can be!, but if you just chill out and go with it then it all works out.


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## willem (5 May 2009)

There are two European standards for professional use: EN 471 class 2 and the more demanding EN 471 class 3. The less demanding EN 1150 standard is for non professional use only, such as in sports. There are also closely corresponding American ANSI and Canadian standards, but they are quite irrelevant in the European market (though most professional products meet both EN 471 and Ansi, since they are so similar). I have no idea what the French law viz bicycling presupposes, but I would guess EN 1150. However, most professional gear meets at least EN 471 class 2, and ussually even class 3 (apart from many gilets and t shirts that are simply not large enough to meet class 3 requirements, but make do with class 2).
Instead of worrrying about what you can get away with, I think the smart thing to do is to get the best there is: EN 471 class 3. It does not cost any more, and it is designed for the most demanding situations for road side workers - that is precisely the gear a cyclist wants, I think.
The practical problem is that there really is hardly any cycling specific gear that meets these standards. There is clothing with a hi viz yellow colour, but nothing that also has reflective striping of the kind required by any of the standards. All you can hope for is a bit of piping and small reflective details.
The question is what to do, other than wear an EN 471 vest at all time. I have chosen to buy some hi viz yellow Brooks Nightlife running shirts, socks, and a jacket. As sports clothing I have been very happy with the stuff, and as long as you are riding in day time or at dusk, the dayglow colour is magnificently visible. The problem comes at night. Then the fluo colour no longer works, and you really need the reflective striping. Since that is also the colder time of day, the absence of such striping on my thin shirts does not really bother me: I will be wearing some jacket in any case. I have stuck some reflective stripes on my Goretex and Windstopper cycling jackets, and that does a decent job, even if it does not meet any standards. To really meet those standards, I either need to wear a professional workwear vest, or buy an EN 471 Goretex workwear raincoat. The bad news is that the latter really are rather heavy.
So I make do, in the absense of serious cycling specific clothing that meets EN 471 standards, not even class 2. The fact that there is none (at least that I know of), really is a disgrace.
Willem


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## theloafer (14 May 2009)

g/f got me one yesterday for my trip to france its en471 ceit should do only cost £2.50... ....from w.boyes


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## psmiffy (14 May 2009)

Of course if you do get EN471 class 3 then they must be long sleeved and have at least on reflective stripe on the sleeve - I assume they must be saffron yellow (this is irrelavant but I just wanted to say it - the thing that confuses me is that in the UK highway activities is yellow and rail activites are orange - something to do with not being confused with the signals) on the continent it is the other way round - course there is now a school of thought that saffron yellow is only good in the daylight - not good under sodiums - and an orange/yellow hybrid is being introduced - I no problem finding a vest for cycling in - I have a great big bag of decent ones that do not conform to this or that standard/local rules etc - buy shares in hi viz manufacturers?


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## psmiffy (14 May 2009)

Willem - if you want the best then there are some very nice class 3 goretex hi viz jackets that would be OK for cycling in - tres expence - no idea where you get them as way out of my leauge - only seen them on the backs of people who arrive in large black BMWs or Daimlers


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## andym (14 May 2009)

psmiffy said:


> in the UK highway activities is yellow and rail activites are orange



Mining is orange too. No consensus about which is best.


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## willem (14 May 2009)

In fact, the hi viz goretx jackets as apparently worn by the BMW crowd of the story are not necessarily that expensive. The only ones I know after extensive searching are professional workwear, and these goretex jackets are significanly cheaper than the goretex jackets commonly foun din outdoor shops. Their biggest disadvantage is that they are very heavy and probably not very breathable.
Willem


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## psmiffy (14 May 2009)

willem - I do not know - but I picked up one that belonged to a geezer that I was at an induction with and it was gorgous thing


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