# My (almost) run in with the law



## gaj104 (28 Jan 2012)

Cycling into work yesterday morning, nice and clear, and saw a quartet of police motorbikes in pairs coming out of a side road. First pair come out, no probs. Second pair wait for what I thought for me to pass. Gave me the fright of my life when one decides to pull out right out in front of me.

No ides of the number plate or the constabulary but wondering is it worth reporting? And if so how would I go about it?


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## gaz (28 Jan 2012)

gaj104 said:


> Cycling into work yesterday morning, nice and clear, and saw a quartet of police motorbikes in pairs coming out of a side road. First pair come out, no probs. Second pair wait for what I thought for me to pass. Gave me the fright of my life when one decides to pull out right out in front of me.
> 
> No ides of the number plate or the constabulary but wondering is it worth reporting? And if so how would I go about it?



This was in London?
Submit it on the road safe london website with the time, date and location and they should be able to track down who it could have been.
As the officers that run road safe london are traffic officers who are experienced with motorbikes, hgv's and cars, they will take great interest in this.


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## sheddy (28 Jan 2012)

Does anyone think this was a training session for novices ? 
They all look like regular BiB to me


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## Herzog (28 Jan 2012)

1700331 said:


> That is sub optimal...


 
That's a polite way of saying it...


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## G-Zero (28 Jan 2012)

Definitely in need of some driver training methinks, unless he was actually on a training course and has already had a good bollocking off his instructor.

If not on a training course, then.... Oh Dear !!....

No emergency lighting to excuse being in such a hurry to exit the junction and even if he was using emergency equipment it was still too close, unless it was obvious you were conceding priority.

Positioning was crap in the junction, on the wrong side of his lane markings, which would have caused problems if there had been an artic entering the junction and needed the width of the opposing lane to safely make the turn.

Kept rolling on when his (more alert) partner had come to a stop.

Made the decision to keep going from too far back in the junction, before having a really good look. He was in view around the time you cleared the telephone kiosk and even though there was an advertising board, a waste bin and several poles partly obscuring his view, a good police advanced driver would have still picked you up at that point.

Failed to see and/or give way to you.


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## 400bhp (28 Jan 2012)

Deffo send it off. The officer involved will get the pish ripped out of him for a long time because of that.


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## growingvegetables (28 Jan 2012)

Just a thought - is it worth making the video "unlisted"? Fair enough the guy gets ragged silly at work - no problem ........ but making it unlisted spares the guy (and the police in general) from a possible public Youtube pillorying?

Dunno - up to you. I know I would here in Leeds - but that's because we don't have Roadwatch and I'd hate to jeopardise the friendly cooperation I get despite that.


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## 400bhp (28 Jan 2012)

That seems a sensible suggestion.


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## gaj104 (28 Jan 2012)

Thanks Gaz, not too far from Elephant & Castle. Will check out roadsafe.

Growingvegetables, happy to make it unlisted, though not sure theres enough details in the video to pinpoint the rider.

Thanks everyone else for your replies.

Funny, as dont usually have my camera, but thought i'd put it on that day.


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## CopperCyclist (28 Jan 2012)

Police motorcyclists should be advanced drivers already, so no excuse really. Probably worth a mention, though the possibility of a training course is a good one, in which case it should be mentioned anyway!


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## BentMikey (28 Jan 2012)

What about asking if they can do some Bikeability cycle training instead? I'm sure the rider knew he made a mistake and already learned from it, but I also bet he doesn't know much about cycle riding and could do with the education.


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## xpc316e (28 Jan 2012)

CopperCyclist said:


> Police motorcyclists should be advanced drivers already, so no excuse really. Probably worth a mention, though the possibility of a training course is a good one, in which case it should be mentioned anyway!


 
Officers can join the Traffic section of the Met as Standard Riders, without any advanced driving qualifications. Many new recruits to Traffic will not even be Standard Drivers, and a motorcycle will be the first Police vehicle they have used.

As a former instructor at Hendon Driving School, I would very much doubt that these four riders were on any sort of course. Courses do not usually enter central London.


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## G-Zero (28 Jan 2012)

xpc316e said:


> Many new recruits to Traffic will not even be Standard Drivers, and a motorcycle will be the first Police vehicle they have used.


 
Hard to believe and frightening !!

DofT to Police Advanced ??


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## xpc316e (28 Jan 2012)

G-Zero said:


> Hard to believe and frightening !!
> 
> DofT to Police Advanced ??


 
Why is it hard to believe?


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## CopperCyclist (28 Jan 2012)

xpc316e said:


> Officers can join the Traffic section of the Met as Standard Riders, without any advanced driving qualifications. Many new recruits to Traffic will not even be Standard Drivers, and a motorcycle will be the first Police vehicle they have used.
> 
> As a former instructor at Hendon Driving School, I would very much doubt that these four riders were on any sort of course. Courses do not usually enter central London.



Ah, I stand corrected then. Different to my force, all the motorcyclist are already confirmed Traffic Officers - i.e. advanced drivers.

No excuses for him then!


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## BlackPanther (28 Jan 2012)

One thing's for sure. If it was you pulling out so late on a bike cop he'd have pulled you up and given you a loooooong lecture. I'd be tempted to take my lap top to the station to show the desk 'Sarge' or 'Maam', and let them have a copy.

Is Desk Sarge/Maam right? Forgive me, my cop knowledge is limited to crap early 80s T.V. "We're the Sweeney, Son, and we've haven't had any dinner yet".


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## Lurker (28 Jan 2012)

CopperCyclist said:


> Ah, I stand corrected then. Different to my force, all the motorcyclist are already confirmed Traffic Officers - i.e. advanced drivers.
> 
> No excuses for him then!


 
Not sure what the level of training of a police officer has to do with it - surely this would be an instant fail for ANYONE, if they had done this during their driving test?


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## xpc316e (28 Jan 2012)

One does expect high standards from Police drivers & riders, and rightly so. However, one cannot reasonably expect perfection from them. This rider made a mistake, a bad mistake, but no harm was done. Had the boot been on the other foot, the Police Officer would probably have given a verbal warning to the motorist. A prosecution for WDC would probably only follow an actual crash in these circumstances. 

If the OP does report this, it is hardly likely to be 'in the public interest' to prosecute the Police rider. Although he did pull out in front of the cyclist, the cyclist was not forced to brake too hard as we can see his right hand raised in a 'WTF' gesture as the rider crosses his path. I'd put this incident down to experience, and hope that the Police rider has learnt a lesson.


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## Dave W (28 Jan 2012)

Lurker said:


> Not sure what the level of training of a police officer has to do with it - surely this would be an instant fail for ANYONE, if they had done this during their driving test?



Not really, the cyclist didn't have to slow down or alter course. Looks like the motorcyclist made good progress to me.

Now my flame proof coat is on and I'm going to hide.


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## Canrider (28 Jan 2012)

Interesting. I note the stopped rider is visibly checking L/R while waiting at the line as the cyclist passes (can see the helmet turn between frames). Obviously not clear what the 'straight on' rider was doing as the bicycle approached as the range is too great, but as has been said, if they looked then, they looked too early unless they were in hot pursuit. Definitely worth taking a copy in to see what they say!


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## col (28 Jan 2012)

The one that carried on pulling out never really stopped, maybe he was good enough to know he wouldnt effect the cyclist? The one that stopped had missed the window so waited till he passed?


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## GrasB (28 Jan 2012)

Though it wasn't a big problem for the cyclist it is disconcerting for the cyclist to have that happen to them. I personally wouldn't report this my self.


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## col (28 Jan 2012)

I dont see how it could be disconcerting, if I saw a pair of police bikes come from a juncion in front of me, and then another couple approaching, Id be watching for just what happened, I definitely wouldnt keep on pushing then wave at them for not effecting my direction or speed.


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## GrasB (28 Jan 2012)

He pulled out a little late to be comfortable really. Certainly at that distance & the speed I perceive the rider to be going at it feels tight in the video. If I was to pull out like that on my RoSPA exam it certainly wouldn't go down well at all & I'd expect to have it specifically brought up by the examining officer.


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## col (28 Jan 2012)

I disagree with it being uncomfortable in this instance. There was enough room so as not to make it what the cyclist seems too. In a test it may be mentioned, but in this case I dont see a problem with the police bike.


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## Nebulous (29 Jan 2012)

I'm not sure anyone is suggesting he be prosecuted. I would have felt uncomfortable with it. 

Not that I've got a camera - but my approach would be submit it, make it unlisted and say. "this felt uncomfortable to me, I'd like you to bring my concern to the driver involved, and I'd also be interested in your view on the manoeuvre." That then puts the onus on the police to either apologise or explain it.


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## G-Zero (29 Jan 2012)

xpc316e said:


> Why is it hard to believe?


 
IMO it's a leap too far and from memory, I believe it breaches guidelines, which advocate 3 years as a standard driver before moving on to advanced; and for very sound safety reasons.


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## Peteaud (29 Jan 2012)

BlackPanther said:


> One thing's for sure. If it was you pulling out so late on a bike cop he'd have pulled you up and given you a loooooong lecture.


 
Agreed. I would send them a copy and ask for a reply.


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## BlackPanther (29 Jan 2012)

col said:


> I disagree with it being uncomfortable in this instance. There was enough room so as not to make it what the cyclist seems too. In a test it may be mentioned, but in this case I dont see a problem with the police bike.


 

As cyclists I'm sure we've all lost count of the amount of times people have pulled out in front of us. In this case, there wasn't any chance of a collision, but it was close enough to be scary. What if the 'offender' had started to pull out, then seen the cyclist and stopped causing the cyclist to brake hard, swerve and maybe fall off.......and slide into oncoming traffic? Unlikely, but this is the problem we face when people pull out. We have to assume that they will do the unpredictable, and plan accordingly which is what the majority of motorists don't understand. At the very least, the officer should be made to watch the video. He really really really should know better.


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## GrasB (29 Jan 2012)

1701362 said:


> col said:
> 
> 
> > I disagree with it being uncomfortable in this instance. There was enough room so as not to make it what the cyclist seems too. In a test it may be mentioned, but in this case I dont see a problem with the police bike.
> ...


I'd go further. Anything that's you think maybe worthy of comment in a test is bad driving & shouldn't be done on the road. As I said if I did that on a RoSPA exam then I'd expect the examining officer to specifically mention it on the drive review. I say this as a driver who hovers on the borderline between gold/silver standard RoSPA advanced driver. The driving standards RoSPA use are the same ones that the police use & as such I'd expect better from a police rider. This is not a bad error by the police rider in question, maybe a momentary lack of concentration, but certainly one which makes a (motor)bike rider uncomfortable when they are the subject of this error.


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## User269 (29 Jan 2012)

That was very close, and unacceptable behaviour. The offender overtook his colleague who was stopped, and who was also blocking his view of anything approaching from the left. Why has he ignored his stopped colleague and just driven out? Because he's taking a gamble, based on his training and experience. I''m not expecting there should be a major enquiry, but I think a complaint is in order, and some reassurance that the offender will be given some feedback and advice regarding his experience and training. Why? Because I don't see why the public should be exposed to such risks or even so much as a fright, by those whose job it is to protect and help us to feel safe.


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## xpc316e (29 Jan 2012)

G-Zero said:


> IMO it's a leap too far and from memory, I believe it breaches guidelines, which advocate 3 years as a standard driver before moving on to advanced; and for very sound safety reasons.


 
In this instance the riders are most probably Standard Riders as the Met runs very few Advanced Motorcycle courses. As Standard Riders they are entitled to ride Traffic bikes and answer emergency calls with lights and sirens. There is no practical difference in the Met between what Standard and Advanced Riders are allowed to do. Advanced Riders can ride unmarked bikes on surveillance duties in some departments, but in others Standard Riders do the same. Entry into Traffic does not need Advanced Rider status; I was in Traffic for many years as a Standard Rider and never even got a sniff of an advanced course.


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## Lurker (29 Jan 2012)

User269 said:


> That was very close, and unacceptable behaviour. The offender overtook his colleague who was stopped, and who was also blocking his view of anything approaching from the left. Why has he ignored his stopped colleague and just driven out? Because he's taking a gamble, based on his training and experience. I''m not expecting there should be a major enquiry, but I think a complaint is in order, and some reassurance that the offender will be given some feedback and advice regarding his experience and training. Why? Because I don't see why the public should be exposed to such risks or even so much as a fright, by those whose job it is to protect and help us to feel safe.


 
Well put. Nobody's asking for a prosecution - simply for the Police to take action to ensure that the individual concerned learns from his mistake and that it doesn't happen again.


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## G-Zero (29 Jan 2012)

User269 said:


> Why? Because I don't see why the public should be exposed to such risks or even so much as a fright, by those whose job it is to protect and help us to feel safe.


 
I find myself in full agreeance with that comment and although on this occasion, the OP was confident enough to react with a hand wave, we don't know if he backed off pedalling and it may be that a less experienced cyclist may have reacted by diving on the brakes or swerving.

I don't think there's anywhere near enough to warrant a prosecution, but there is a definite learning point for that motorcyclist.


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## G-Zero (29 Jan 2012)

xpc316e said:


> In this instance the riders are most probably Standard Riders as the Met runs very few Advanced Motorcycle courses. As Standard Riders they are entitled to ride Traffic bikes and answer emergency calls with lights and sirens. There is no practical difference in the Met between what Standard and Advanced Riders are allowed to do. Advanced Riders can ride unmarked bikes on surveillance duties in some departments, but in others Standard Riders do the same. Entry into Traffic does not need Advanced Rider status; I was in Traffic for many years as a Standard Rider and never even got a sniff of an advanced course.


 
That explains the confusion at my end.... "Traffic" tends to have a different meaning in the NE forces and refers to the (_car based)_ Road Policing Units, with "Bike Sections" remaining separate (advanced) entities. 

I take it that the Met haven't yet adopted allowing a potentially inexperienced DSA car driver, to get straight on to a high speed advanced course, which is the impression I took from your earlier comment.


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## benb (29 Jan 2012)

col said:


> I disagree with it being uncomfortable in this instance. There was enough room so as not to make it what the cyclist seems too. In a test it may be mentioned, but in this case I dont see a problem with the police bike.


 
If the OP felt it was uncomfortable, then it was.


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## col (29 Jan 2012)

benb said:


> If the OP felt it was uncomfortable, then it was.


 Your point being? I said what the cyclist seems to make it. But there still wasnt a dangerous situation here, well not by the police bike.


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## col (29 Jan 2012)

1701362 said:


> Then you are too accepting of low standards. Anything that would be worthy of comment in a test is equally worthy of comment in real life.


 If you feel that, but looking at the vid again it seems the cyclist moves further out in the road to close the gap even more to the police bike. No he made a mountain out of a molehill.


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## col (29 Jan 2012)

1701657 said:


> Sorry Col but you are talking bollocks there. Moving out is a perfectly reasonable thing to do, it makes you more visible and shows that you are claiming your bit of road assertively.
> 
> Ask yourself a question, would the motorcyclist have done the same had it been a car coming down the road?


 Im happy you have your opinion too.


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## benb (29 Jan 2012)

col said:


> Your point being? I said what the cyclist seems to make it. But there still wasnt a dangerous situation here, well not by the police bike.


 
Just because no-one was hurt doesn't mean it was dangerous. A second later and it would have been a much more serious situation. In any case the riding was clearly sub-standard and we should expect more from professional drivers.


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## col (29 Jan 2012)

benb said:


> Just because no-one was hurt doesn't mean it was dangerous. A second later and it would have been a much more serious situation. In any case the riding was clearly sub-standard and we should expect more from professional drivers.


 A second later could apply to most things, and what if ect. Glad you agree though.


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## BentMikey (29 Jan 2012)

I don't recall any positive opinions by you Col, of any other cyclist, ever. Am I mistaken, or are you just a Bloodbus member here to snipe at cyclists. I'm not even convinced you're actually a cyclist, to be frank.


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## sheddy (29 Jan 2012)

Riding in a dead straight line makes you invisible - which is why the MC pulled out
Still his fault of course


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## HovR (29 Jan 2012)

Silly mistake really - You'd expect better from an officer, especially as he is also a motorcyclist. Not the worst pull-out ever, but certainly not a good one!


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## BSRU (29 Jan 2012)

The motorbike rider made mistakes,
they didn't appear to look right properly, notice the guy who stopped looking right looking at the cyclist,
they are on the wrong side of the road,
they compound their mistake by cutting the turn and bringing themselves closer to the cyclist,
they do not follow the good example of the motorbike rider who stopped,
the motorbike rider that stopped was blocking his view to the left and hence he could not safely proceed.

The lens of the camera will make objects appear to be further away than they really are.


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## Origamist (29 Jan 2012)

Dave W said:


> Not really, *the cyclist didn't have to slow down or alter course.* Looks like the motorcyclist made good progress to me.
> 
> Now my flame proof coat is on and I'm going to hide.


 

You can't easily tell whether the cyclist slowed/braked from the footage. However, you can see that the cyclist moves a foot or two to the right on the approach to the junction in order to make himself more conspicuous.

As the frame grab below highlights - it's v close and it was poor judgement by the police motorcyclist. IME, this is unusual as it's cyclists and motorcyclists who bear the brunt of motorists' inattentional blindness (looming, motion camouflge etc).





Personally, I'd not report it and hope that the more savvy police rider (who stopped at the junction and appears to have clocked what happened) would have a word in his ear.


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## GrasB (29 Jan 2012)

col said:


> A second later could apply to most things, and what if ect. Glad you agree though.


A fair few years ago I was driving along minding my own business when someone pulls out from a side road when I'm too close, close enough that I'm not going to be able to stop by the junction. At this point it's not a huge problem just annoying to have to jump on the brakes very hard because someone couldn't be bothered to wait for a proper space. However this time the rules change, the car doesn't accelerate away at all & actually slows down - I'd guess he had spun the inside front up & then changed up, the engine then partially stalled/miss fired as the next gear was fed in which caused noticeable engine braking. I know I can't stop before the junction he pulled out of, I can't pull into the oposite lane because that's a head on collision, no the safest option is to go down the road he'd just pulled out of. Through some skill & luck I manage to chuck the car into the turning he came out & slid/spun to a halt turning the car through about 230 degrees from my orignal direction of travel. He was lucky he picked to pull out on me, had he done that with most drivers they would have frozen on the brakes & t-boned him. So an annoyance turned into a real problem because just one thing happened... this is why you don't take big risks, because some times s**t happens & even a relatively safe speeds it happens quickly.


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## benb (29 Jan 2012)

col said:


> A second later could apply to most things, and what if ect. Glad you agree though.


Oh do shut up, it's obvious I don't agree with you, and equally obvious that the motorcycle pulled out when he shouldn't.

If that's how you decide whether something's safe, you should play russian roulette. There's a 5/6 chance of it being perfectly safe.


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## col (29 Jan 2012)

BentMikey said:


> I don't recall any positive opinions by you Col, of any other cyclist, ever. Am I mistaken, or are you just a Bloodbus member here to snipe at cyclists. I'm not even convinced you're actually a cyclist, to be frank.


 Well frank, I gave my opinion and you accuse me of something as usual, with an insult thrown in. As well you know, Iv looked on bloodbus at the same time magnatron did, until he lost his temper because I had an opinion about some of his vids that he didnt like. But havnt been on it for a long while, as its mostly one sided in favour of buses strangely enough. As for not being a cyclist, your really trying to flame and bait as usual. So frank, if you cant handle my opinion with out spitting your dummy out, dont read it. Pleeeese put me on ignore if thats the only way you can control your temper tantrums. Oh and Iv probably been cycling longer than you have been out of nappies, which doesnt seem like it might be that long, going on your reaction to me lately? Chin up and keep smiling young un


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## col (29 Jan 2012)

benb said:


> Oh do shut up, it's obvious I don't agree with you, and equally obvious that the motorcycle pulled out when he shouldn't.
> 
> If that's how you decide whether something's safe, you should play russian roulette. There's a 5/6 chance of it being perfectly safe.


 I was being sarky, seems to be the prefered thing by some  But your highlighted words did invite it


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## col (29 Jan 2012)

GrasB said:


> A fair few years ago I was driving along minding my own business when someone pulls out from a side road when I'm too close, close enough that I'm not going to be able to stop by the junction. At this point it's not a huge problem just annoying to have to jump on the brakes very hard because someone couldn't be bothered to wait for a proper space. However this time the rules change, the car doesn't accelerate away at all & actually slows down - I'd guess he had spun the inside front up & then changed up, the engine then partially stalled/miss fired as the next gear was fed in which caused noticeable engine braking. I know I can't stop before the junction he pulled out of, I can't pull into the oposite lane because that's a head on collision, no the safest option is to go down the road he'd just pulled out of. Through some skill & luck I manage to chuck the car into the turning he came out & slid/spun to a halt turning the car through about 230 degrees from my orignal direction of travel. He was lucky he picked to pull out on me, had he done that with most drivers they would have frozen on the brakes & t-boned him. So an annoyance turned into a real problem because just one thing happened... this is why you don't take big risks, because some times s**t happens & even a relatively safe speeds it happens quickly.


 I do agree with you G, but some will keep pushing on no matter what. Again it seems I might be the only one , but I generally slow and treat junctions as possible danger areas. And if i see anything there I expect them to pull out.


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## col (29 Jan 2012)

Origamist said:


> You can't easily tell whether the cyclist slowed/braked from the footage. However, you can see that the cyclist moves a foot or two to the right on the approach to the junction in order to make himself more conspicuous.
> 
> As the frame grab below highlights - it's v close and it was poor judgement by the police motorcyclist. IME, this is unusual as it's cyclists and motorcyclists who bear the brunt of motorists' inattentional blindness (looming, motion camouflge etc).
> 
> ...


 I would agree with you here, if it wasnt for the fact he did his move out at the last second. I wonder why?


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## Origamist (29 Jan 2012)

col said:


> I would agree with you here, if it wasnt for the fact he did his move out at the last second. I wonder why?


 
It is one aspect of what is known "SMIDSY Evasion" - it is recommended that you move more to the right, than to the left (but still weave) on the approach.

There was little point changing lateral position earlier as the motorcyclist was not looking to his right then.


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## BentMikey (29 Jan 2012)

Remind us Col, why are you even a member here if you only ever seem to criticise cyclists? Are you just trolling and looking for reactions?


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## col (29 Jan 2012)

BentMikey said:


> Remind us Col, why are you even a member here if you only ever seem to criticise cyclists? Are you just trolling and looking for reactions?


 Trolling and reactions?Thats your job frank. If I see something that looks a little off to me , I tend to say . Funny that dont you think frank, on a forum that posts for other peoples opinions?


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## BentMikey (29 Jan 2012)

Your goal for the week is to see if you can post something positive about some cycling from someone on here.


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## col (29 Jan 2012)

1701894 said:


> And your thoughts about how it would have been had it been a car rather than a cyclist coming down the road?


 Probably a different scenario Involving faster speeds and larger vehicles. Whats your opinion on this?


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## col (29 Jan 2012)

Origamist said:


> It is one aspect of what is known "SMIDSY Evasion" - it is recommended that you move more to the right, than to the left (but still weave) on the approach.
> 
> There was little point changing lateral position earlier as the motorcyclist was not looking to his right then.


 So moving closer to the vehicle your waving at for being too close is the way to go? If done further down the road yes, but not at the so called danger, or possible impact point. Thats just making the situation worse, especially if your claiming you havnt been seen. My reaction if I dont think Iv been seen, is to slow and keep away.


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## spen666 (29 Jan 2012)

to say if the op felt it was uncomfortable then it was uncomfortable is plainly nonsense

If I say I feel you are a pillock, does that mean you are a pillock or does it just mean I feel you are a pillock.

You are applying a nonsensical approach to something.

If the police officer was traced and said he felt it was not uncomfortable, then does that mean on your test that it was not uncomfortable?


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## col (29 Jan 2012)

BentMikey said:


> Your goal for the week is to see if you can post something positive about some cycling from someone on here.


 I accept your mission sir, now hang on while I get out of the way while it self destructs
Now that wasnt difficult was it? Being pleasant instead of not.


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## lukesdad (29 Jan 2012)

It would seem the movement to the right came when the hand came off the bar.


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## Origamist (29 Jan 2012)

col said:


> So moving closer to the vehicle your waving at for being too close is the way to go? If done further down the road yes, but not at the so called danger, or possible impact point. Thats just making the situation worse, especially if your claiming you havnt been seen. My reaction if I dont think Iv been seen, is to slow and keep away.


 
As I said, changing your trajectory earlier is only an advantage if the motorcyclist was looking to his right - he wasn't. What's more, there is an advertising hoarding obscuring sight lines at the juncion approach. The cyclist moves to his right (possibly instinctively/unabalanced, or to give himself more space - a "safety bubble", or to avoid the pot-holes, or to make himself more visible against the background) - he does not know that the motorcyclist will a) pull out, b) the speed of the motorcycist if he does emerge, or c) the line he will take (he cuts the corner for example) all of these will affect collision dynamics and the point of impact. Moving left, slowing holding the same line, moving further right etc might have had different consequences, but not necessarily better and potentially worse.


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## col (29 Jan 2012)

Origamist said:


> As I said, changing your trajectory earlier is only an advantage if the motorcyclist was looking to his right - he wasn't. What's more, there is an advertising hoarding obscuring sight lines at the juncion approach. The cyclist moves to his right (possibly instinctively/unabalanced, or to give himself more space - a "safety bubble", or to avoid the pot-holes, or to make himself more visible against the background) - he does not know that the motorcyclist will a) pull out, b) the speed of the motorcycist if he does emerge, or c) the line he will take (he cuts the corner for example) all of these will affect collision dynamics and the point of impact. Moving left, slowing holding the same line, moving further right etc might have had different consequences, but not necessarily better and potentially worse.


 Exactly why i treat junctions with caution.


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## Origamist (29 Jan 2012)

lukesdad said:


> It would seem the movement to the right came when the hand came off the bar.


 
He had moved further right before that (look at the frame grabs at 7 and 9secs respectively), but there is a further move right that coincides with his right hand lifting off the bars:



7 sec by Kierkegaard, on Flickr




9 secs by Kierkegaard, on Flickr


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## 400bhp (29 Jan 2012)

Take a step back from this forum and look back in.

It's incredible how (non?) incidents are dissected.


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## lukesdad (29 Jan 2012)

This may be in fact right Im no expert in frame grabs


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## Origamist (29 Jan 2012)

400bhp said:


> Take a step back from this forum and look back in.
> 
> It's incredible how (non?) incidents are dissected.


 
If you can hack it in here, a cross-examination by a QC or a police interview would be a doddle. Consider it a primer...!

Don't worry, when I get to 4000 posts I enter the CC carousel, (as in _Logan's Run) _and that will be the end of me.


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## 400bhp (29 Jan 2012)

Origamist said:


> If you can hack it in here, a cross-examination by a QC or a police interview would be a doddle. Consider it a primer...!
> 
> Don't worry, when I get to 4000 posts I enter the CC carousel, (as in _Logan's Run) _and that will be the end of me.


 
When you think about it, it is crazy. Why anyone would want to post a clip of their riding on here is beyone me. Life and get, not in that order.


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## boydj (29 Jan 2012)

spen666 said:


> to say if the op felt it was uncomfortable then it was uncomfortable is plainly nonsense


The standard used in workplaces for harassment or bullying is that if the recipient perceives the words or actions as bullying or harassment, then the behaviour has to be treated as such. So if the OP felt the police biker's action made him uncomfortable, then we have to accept that as a fact.


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## col (29 Jan 2012)

boydj said:


> The standard used in workplaces for harassment or bullying is that if the recipient perceives the words or actions as bullying or harassment, then the behaviour has to be treated as such. So if the OP felt the police biker's action made him uncomfortable, then we have to accept that as a fact.


 Mmmm Im uncomfortable with that.


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## Bicycle (29 Jan 2012)

400bhp said:


> When you think about it, it is crazy. Why anyone would want to post a clip of their riding on here is beyone me. *Life and get*, not in that order.


 
Life get and?

Do I win a prize?


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## col (29 Jan 2012)

1702147 said:


> OP "gave me the fright of my life". That comes across as a bit more that uncomfortable.


 Do you carry on as normal when you get a fright of your life?


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## 400bhp (29 Jan 2012)

Yes, you win a prize.

An opportunity to buy a helmet cam and post non events on t'internet.


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## Origamist (29 Jan 2012)

400bhp said:


> When you think about it, it is crazy. Why anyone would want to post a clip of their riding on here is beyone me. Life and get, not in that order.


 
Sometimes it's a diverting sub-CSI circus, othertimes it's a distasteful blood sport when someone has been injured.


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## col (29 Jan 2012)

[QUOTE 1702161, member: 45"]The biker pulled out when he shouldn't have.

He took an abysmal line.

It's not really a big deal, but might be worth mentioning to the scuffers.

Ignore col, he's clouded by an agenda.[/quote]
Your franks and mags mate arent you, how unexpected

What agenda is that then paul?


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## lukesdad (29 Jan 2012)

400bhp said:


> When you think about it, it is crazy. Why anyone would want to post a clip of their riding on here is beyone me. Life and get, not in that order.


 Answer A

To highlight road safety issues

Answer B

To impress CC commutings High Command 

Take your pick.


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## col (29 Jan 2012)

1702184 said:


> Oi Col, I'll make it easy for you. Do you think the copper would have done the same had it been a car coming down the road at that speed? Yes or no?


 Got the vid?


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## col (29 Jan 2012)

1702191 said:


> What vid? It was a simple question, only needed a yes or a no.


 Now you know your wrong there. Your trying to get me to comment on something that hasnt happened, its a minefield I tell you Now if you had a vid to show me, I would happily have a look and give you my opinion.


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## GrasB (29 Jan 2012)

col said:


> Do you carry on as normal when you get a fright of your life?


Oddly enough most people do just with a far heightened level of adrenaline that they're trying to control which makes the more likely to make rash & seeming illogical decisions....


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## col (29 Jan 2012)

GrasB said:


> Oddly enough most people do just with a far heightened level of adrenaline that they're trying to control which makes the more likely to make rash & seeming illogical decisions....


Ah so the attempt at a high five with the rozzer is explained in some way then.
So not as normal then.


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## lukesdad (29 Jan 2012)

1702214 said:


> It was an exercise in imagination. Still your answers thus far say enough to be honest.


I thought that wasn t allowed.


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## col (29 Jan 2012)

1702214 said:


> It was an exercise in imagination. Still your answers thus far say enough to be honest.


 Why thank you whats going on ? even frank has been nice to me tonight, paul hasnt though, he wont even answer his accusation he made about me


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## col (29 Jan 2012)

1702230 said:


> Desperate times call for desperate measures and I am really trying to understand Col's position here which, I'm sure you will agree, is a pretty desperate thing to attempt.


 No one ever got anywhere without putting effort into it


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## Bicycle (29 Jan 2012)

I haven't really followed this thread, but I watched at the footage. I know a little about how Police motorcyclists are trained, whom they select and the benefit that society as a whole derives from that training.

I think it was a slightly poor piece of riding; the rider won't be proud of it. No-one would be.

It's the sort of thing that happens regularly when I cycle in london (although not involving Police riders).

I'm slightly surprised the footage was posted, but it was. It happened. No-one was hurt. Not paintwork was exchanged.


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## Dave W (29 Jan 2012)

No one got hurt though, the motorcyclist cut it very fine through either skill or lack of judgement and the cyclist appeared to veer towards the motorcyclist whilst simultaneously remonstrating with arm gestures. 

The cyclist didn't need to do anything, the motorcyclist could have waited but didn't with zero consequences. Is it really worth 5 pages of discussion and personal accusations? Really?


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## col (29 Jan 2012)

Dave W said:


> No one got hurt though, the motorcyclist cut it very fine through either skill or lack of judgement and the cyclist appeared to veer towards the motorcyclist whilst simultaneously remonstrating with arm gestures.
> 
> The cyclist didn't need to do anything, the motorcyclist could have waited but didn't with zero consequences. Is it really worth 5 pages of discussion and personal accusations? Really?


 no


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## BentMikey (29 Jan 2012)

That was a bit more than slightly bad riding by that rozzer, it was rather a close call IMO. It's a fairly wide angle camera, which makes it look further away than in reality, and it looks bad enough even before you take the wide angle lens into consideration.


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## Bicycle (29 Jan 2012)

1702273 said:


> Doesn't it make sense that we do whatever we can to make our roads better before someone gets hurt?


 
Well, that's an interesting notion.

I think you and I might draw the line in different places. Everything we can means _*'everything we can'*._ Many people using that phrase mean_ 'everything we can, according to *my* priorities and judgement'._

I do not for a moment suggest that you mean it so, but many do. 

That incident lies beneath the threshold of my Givafukkometer and I would take it no further. Others may want to make an issue of incidents that are below the threshold of your Givafukkometer.

Some may say that it makes sense to report every jay-walker, every driver who rolls gently over a solid white STOP line on an empty road in broad daylight, every motorist driving at 42mph in a 40 limit....

I wouldn't. Some might. By writing as I do i might give the impression that I give not one fig about road safety. The opposite is true; I and my whole family cycle and I care a great deal aout it. 

But to me that was a non-event, a non-issue, a non-incident.

I quite respect the views of those who think otherwise, but the needle of my Givafukkometer didn't even flicker as I watched the footage.


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## lukesdad (29 Jan 2012)

Adrian have you had a bang on the head, whats with all this imagination stuff ?


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## Dave W (29 Jan 2012)

1702299 said:


> We should tolerate substandard driving on our roads?



I didn't say that did I?

Regardless, whether the driving/riding was substandard is a matter of opinion anyway.


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## Bicycle (29 Jan 2012)

1702344 said:


> Is that a lack of imagination or do you just metaphorically shrug your shoulders when you get someone pull out in front of you that close?


 
That may be a loaded question, as most people would be reluctant to admit to a lack of imagination. 

But it's a fair thing to ask. I do get annoyed sometimes by poor driving and I do think the motorcyclist in the footage made an error. It might have annoyed me had I been cycling there. I was a motorcycle courier myself once and was a keen motorcyclist until parenthood made me think again. I still have my first (and favourite) proper motorcycle - coveted by my daughter.

Would I take it further? No. It wouldn't even cross my mind to do so. Is that a metaphorical shrug of the shoulders? I don't know.

I do fair mileage in cars and on bicycles and have done for many, many years. I make a judgement (as we all do) about where the line is. For me, that one didn't cross the line. If that is a lack of imagination, then that's what I have.


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## gaj104 (29 Jan 2012)

Wow, a lot of replies there, and some in depth micro analysis, and appreciate everyone's feedback. All I wanted was a bit of advice from a friendly forum, no ulterior motive. I sometimes question how friendly this forum can be at times though?!

I found a lot of video postings from fellow members extremely helpful in how to be a better rider and would hope they help others in their daily travels to get from A to B safely. At the end of the day, that's the most important thing to me, and hope it is to you. So the suggestion of getting a life holds very true, it maintains mine 

From posted videos I like to think I've vastly improved my cycling positioning, with an example being at junctions I like to ride a bit wider to ensure people can see me. I alternate most days between cycling and being on my scooter and know mistakes can happen, but would hope that people learn from their mistakes. In my opinion, if that were test conditions for the motorcyclist it would have been a fail, and the camera, as a wide angle lens, doesn't necessarily give the proximity of that motorbike. Had the tables been turned, I would have expected a firm telling off by the police. Agree, no actual harm was done, but an important lesson can be learned.

Video been put up as unlisted, and hope we can all learn something new today  Safe cycling all, and will continue to watch the various videos.


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## spen666 (30 Jan 2012)

boydj said:


> The standard used in workplaces for harassment or bullying is that if the recipient perceives the words or actions as bullying or harassment, then the behaviour has to be treated as such. So if the OP felt the police biker's action made him uncomfortable, then we have to accept that as a fact.


 
Firstly, I don't think the allegation is the police officer was either harassing or bullying the op in his workplace, so the analogy is irrelevant.

Secondly, I do not deny the op felt uncomfortable ( I am not in a position to dispute how the op felt), but just because the op felt it, it doesn't mean it was. What someone feels and what is fact are not necessarily the same.


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## 400bhp (30 Jan 2012)

gaj104 said:


> Wow, a lot of replies there, and some in depth micro analysis, and appreciate everyone's feedback. All I wanted was a bit of advice from a friendly forum, no ulterior motive. I sometimes question how friendly this forum can be at times though?!
> 
> I found a lot of video postings from fellow members extremely helpful in how to be a better rider and would hope they help others in their daily travels to get from A to B safely. At the end of the day, that's the most important thing to me, and hope it is to you. So the suggestion of getting a life holds very true, it maintains mine
> 
> ...


 
A nice post, but I have highlighted one thing I am unsure of.

What lesson is that then, and who is the lesson for?


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## benb (30 Jan 2012)

I think what col needs to bear in mind, is that while we can watch the video back as many times as we want and analyse everything we see in minute detail, the actual incident happened just once, and took just a few seconds, so most of the reactions will have been instinctive.

col is heavily implying, just as he did on my thread (that he succeeded in getting locked, thanks for that), that the cyclist deliberately swerved towards the motorcycle in order to construct an incident where there was none. That's seems absurd to me, and it's certainly not something that I've ever done.

At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter why the cyclist moved to the right. Maybe they were startled by the motorcycle, maybe there was a pot hole, maybe there was a gust of wind. Other road users need to be aware of, and allow for, the fact that cyclists may need to change direction suddenly and unexpectedly, and give enough room for that to happen. The cyclist was still well within their lane, which just reinforces the point that the motorcycle pulled out when he should have waited - he was simply too close.

It looks to me as though the motorcyclist simply didn't check properly, and never even saw the cyclist until they were already committed to the manoeuvre.


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## classic33 (30 Jan 2012)

If the situation were reversed & the cyclist happenned to be a police officer & the motorcyclist an ordinary motorcyclist. What would be the view from the police officers point of view?

Police motorcyclist cut the corner, failed to obey the stop line markings & failed to give way to traffic that was already on the main road. He's also placed himself on the wrong side of the road, at a junction. The posistion from which he then emerges onto the main road.

Anyone who can say that there's nothing wrong with that doesn't know what they're talking about.


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## col (30 Jan 2012)

benb said:


> I think what col needs to bear in mind, is that while we can watch the video back as many times as we want and analyse everything we see in minute detail, the actual incident happened just once, and took just a few seconds, so most of the reactions will have been instinctive.
> 
> col is heavily implying, just as he did on my thread (that he succeeded in getting locked, thanks for that), that the cyclist deliberately swerved towards the motorcycle in order to construct an incident where there was none. That's seems absurd to me, and it's certainly not something that I've ever done.
> 
> ...


 Bent got the thread closed, and you were debating as keenly as I  I instinctively move closer to something that is too close? Yeah ok  I should make myself more clear, I felt it looked like he moved closer to the police bike at the last second, you can answer that if you like, but I wondered why? Also the simple answer for me is, he decided to keep pushing towards the junction. He wants to stop that and be cautious at junctions, because one day someone wont see him and there will be a collision.


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## col (30 Jan 2012)

1703306 said:


> Col what you haven't considered is that the move is quite possibly away from the last police rider.
> 
> As for your last bit, we should be effectively giving way to traffic on the side roads?


 Not giving way to side roads, just being ready for pull outs.


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## Bicycle (30 Jan 2012)

benb said:


> col is heavily implying, just as he did on my thread (that he succeeded in getting locked, thanks for that)


 
I frequently find that Col's posts do not align at all with my own views and there is often the whiff of playful provocation about the wording (in which regard he is not alone).

However, it would be wrong to blame the closure of the earlier thread on him. Two or more contributors were enjoying some healthy online fencing, there was a shot across the bows from Admin and then a belly-ache from another contributor.

You may want to blame many things on Col, but he did not close the earlier thread and he was one of two members who were toe-to-toe at the time it was locked. Neither seemed to be seeking or offering quarter.

I was saddened by the locking as I'd just posted a view that had the OP had some experience driving PSVs and HGVs through heavily parked urban traffic, he might have given way instead of grasping his right to proceed. My point harked back to an earlier question I'd asked about whether it was helpful to have experience driving or riding several vehicle types. I am pretty sure that anyone who'd negotiated urban streets in an HGV or a PSV would have yielded for the bus.

However, as the thread was locked (not by Col) the point was lost in the thinning mists.


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## col (30 Jan 2012)

1703326 said:


> There is a limit to that. Everytime you come to a side road with someone waiting you can assess it right up to the point where it would be too late to do anything if the driver does move. Up to it you can watch them, make eye contact etc. Once you have reached that point though you pretty much have to rely on their having seen you and ate not moving.


 This is true, but Id rather be going slower than faster if there is a pull out.


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## Origamist (30 Jan 2012)

col said:


> This is true, but Id rather be going slower than faster if there is a pull out.


 
Do you ride in the middle of the lane when you pass side roads, Col?


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## col (30 Jan 2012)

Origamist said:


> Do you ride in the middle of the lane when you pass side roads, Col?


 Depends if there are parked cars, but generally no. I favour secondary.


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## Origamist (30 Jan 2012)

col said:


> Depends if there are parked cars, but generally no. *I favour secondary*.


 
I guess that would generally put you closer to cars that would pull out - maybe it's time to get a helmet cam?!


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## col (30 Jan 2012)

Origamist said:


> I guess that would generally put you closer to cars that would pull out - maybe it's time to get a helmet cam?!


 I dont see how it would put me closer? Possibly further away from the line the pull out most probably is heading for? No thanks, I can see the positives to them, but I couldnt justify the cost , even if I did want one.


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## Origamist (30 Jan 2012)

col said:


> I dont see how it would put me closer? Possibly further away from the line the pull out most probably is heading for? No thanks, I can see the positives to them, but I couldnt justify the cost , even if I did want one.


 
You're closer to the give way line and have less of a safety bubble if traffic pulls out in front of you. 

I thought you might like a camera as you could evaluate your own riding with the same vigour that you analyse the cycling of others.


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## col (30 Jan 2012)

Origamist said:


> You're closer to the give way line and have less of a safety bubble if traffic pulls out in front of you.
> 
> I thought you might like a camera as you could evaluate your own riding with the same vigour that you analyse the cycling of others.


 I dont doubt I make mistakes too, but isnt that what posters of vids are asking?


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## BentMikey (30 Jan 2012)

Isn't that a whole day spent now without anything positive said about someone else's cycling, Col? You only have 6 more.


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## Origamist (30 Jan 2012)

col said:


> I dont doubt I make mistakes too, but isnt that what posters of vids are asking?


 
What do you think are your major faults when riding a bike, Col?

Here's a few of mine:

1.Riding too fast for the conditions (particularly in bus lanes when undertaking traffic in the offside lane).
2.Filtering too often
3. Passing other cyclists too close.
4. Not looking back enough.
5. General complaceny.

I think hope people who upload film are looking for constructive criticism. However, your default position seems to be that most people who post film online try to manipulate the situation to make it look worse than it is. This clouds your judgement and often detracts from your other arguments.


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## lukesdad (30 Jan 2012)

BentMikey said:


> Isn't that a whole day spent now without anything positive said about someone else's cycling, Col? You only have 6 more.


If you tried reading other parts of the forum it might open your mind a little


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## col (30 Jan 2012)

BentMikey said:


> Isn't that a whole day spent now without anything positive said about someone else's cycling, Col? You only have 6 more.


 You and paul are up to mischief


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## col (30 Jan 2012)

Origamist said:


> What do you think are your major faults when riding a bike, Col?
> 
> Here's a few of mine:
> 
> ...


 I think some do yes. Not sure I understand the rest of your post though?


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## col (30 Jan 2012)

[QUOTE 1703422, member: 45"]Me?? You asked me to post one of my vids for your expert analysis. I did.[/quote]
Never mentioned expert once, there you go again I think your getting ideas from someone who did make things worse for cam results, who shall not be named eh voltamort


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## BentMikey (30 Jan 2012)

Link your post, or it didn't happen.


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## col (30 Jan 2012)

BentMikey said:


> Link your post, or it didn't happen.


 What didnt happen?


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## BentMikey (30 Jan 2012)

p.s. and it needs to be in commuting to count.


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## BentMikey (30 Jan 2012)

You don't seriously expect us to believe that you don't understand what I'm referring to?


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## col (30 Jan 2012)

BentMikey said:


> You don't seriously expect us to believe that you don't understand what I'm referring to?


 What are you referring too?


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## BentMikey (30 Jan 2012)

I'm looking for the post in commuting where you've been nice and positive about someone else's cycling. Remember that little bet? I was hoping you might manage to do this at least once in the next week.


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## col (30 Jan 2012)

BentMikey said:


> I'm looking for the post in commuting where you've been nice and positive about someone else's cycling. Remember that little bet? I was hoping you might manage to do this at least once in the next week.


 I think I have, but not because of your mission, but because the cyclist handled himself well.


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## BentMikey (30 Jan 2012)

Well, link to it then, please?


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## col (30 Jan 2012)

BentMikey said:


> Well, link to it then, please?


 No


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## dawesome (30 Jan 2012)

col said:


> No


 

Can you link to any evidence that justifies your claim that motorists are always blamed here?


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## col (30 Jan 2012)

dawesome said:


> Can you link to any evidence that justifies your claim that motorists are always blamed here?


 Why do you ask?


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## col (30 Jan 2012)

1703570 said:


> Is that because it is in cafe rather than commuting?


 No, I just wasnt going to make it easy for him


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## col (30 Jan 2012)

BentMikey said:


> I'm looking for the post in commuting where you've been nice and positive about someone else's cycling. Remember that little bet? I was hoping you might manage to do this at least once in the next week.


 You didnt say in commuting.


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## dawesome (30 Jan 2012)

col said:


> Why do you ask?


 
Because if you can't (or if you duck the question like you just did) then it means you're posting stuff you know isn't true.


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## BentMikey (30 Jan 2012)

I'd accept a post in cafe, if you'd link it. There's a limit to how much time I want to spend on here, some of us have lives outside of cycling forums, you know.


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## dawesome (30 Jan 2012)

"Col" rhymes with another word.


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## Bicycle (31 Jan 2012)

I had a kitten who simply could not resist a screwed up ball of paper tossed across the floor. He'd leap at it as soon as it moved.

Nothing reminds me of the responses of that kitten so much as the way one or two members here rise to the playful joshing of Col.

The kitten didn't take itself at all seriously, but apart from that little fact the similarities are extraordinary.


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## Origamist (31 Jan 2012)

Bicycle said:


> I had a kitten who simply could not resist a screwed up ball of paper tossed across the floor. He'd leap at it as soon as it moved.
> 
> Nothing reminds me of the responses of that kitten so much as the way one or two members here rise to the playful joshing of Col.
> 
> The kitten didn't take itself at all seriously, but apart from that little fact the similarities are extraordinary.


 
I think quite a few people would like to see Col banned and that is why they are happy to play along...


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## Origamist (31 Jan 2012)

1704186 said:


> Or better to gently lead him to see the error of his ways and thus become a better person.


 
You are a sucker for a Sisyphean task, Adrian.


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## Herzog (31 Jan 2012)

Origamist said:


> You are a sucker for a Sisyphean task, Adrian.


This threads got enough problems without introducing greek mythology...


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## Dave W (31 Jan 2012)

"Cyclechat, a fun and friendly online cycling community"

Really.


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## Origamist (31 Jan 2012)

Dave W said:


> "Cyclechat, a fun and friendly online cycling community"
> 
> Really.


 


That doesn't apply to Commuting - it's about as fun and friendly as badger baiting.


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## BentMikey (31 Jan 2012)

It could be nicer, though. I really hope col does manage to prove me wrong and make at least one nice post this week. Then maybe he'll manage two next week, I'd be ecstatic!


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## lukesdad (31 Jan 2012)

Origamist said:


> That doesn't apply to Commuting - it's about as fun and friendly as badger baiting.


......and there are a lot of badgers


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## BSRU (31 Jan 2012)

lukesdad said:


> ......and there are a lot of badgers


I wonder if it has been selected by the government for the proposed badger cull.


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## Rancid (31 Jan 2012)

Can i get my status to read 
"Col thanked me once"
Not because he has (or i have given him reason too) but because it would make me look badass for sure.


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## Origamist (31 Jan 2012)

lukesdad said:


> ......and there are a lot of badgers


 
I abandoned badger baiting in favour of posting here - it's far more mindless and sadistic. After retiring from CC commuting, my final perversion will be to buy a green cycle cape and then I have truly entered the centre of the Ninth Circle of Hell...


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