# The dangers of rechargeable lights



## User33236 (7 Aug 2017)

Mrs SG placed one of her USB rechargeable lights on chanrge in the kitchen yesterday and came back through to watch a bit of tv. The best part of an hour later she went back through to make a coffee and found her lightabout a foot and a half away from the charger in the centre of a burnt section of rug. Thankfully, although keep, the rug was made of fire resistant materials and had extinguished itself. 

The Li-ion battery within the light and the light itself has fared less well.


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## fossyant (7 Aug 2017)

What make was it ? It's fairly common issue with cheaper lights/batteries.


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## johnnyb47 (7 Aug 2017)

That was worrying to read. What make was the light buddy


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## User33236 (7 Aug 2017)

fossyant said:


> What make was it ? It's fairly common issue with cheaper lights/batteries.


Its not a brand generally regarded as cheap and those that know their lights might recognise it. She has contacted the manufacturer, more to make them aware than anything else, so I will avoid naming them at this time until we see if they react responsibly or not.


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## fossyant (7 Aug 2017)

Hmm, I think I know from the casing design. Begins with "L".

It also goes, be careful where you charge lights and don't leave them un-attended.


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## jefmcg (7 Aug 2017)

fossyant said:


> What make was it ? It's fairly common issue with cheaper lights/batteries.


Not only cheap ones. Samsung Galaxies were doing this.


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## User33236 (7 Aug 2017)

fossyant said:


> Hmm, I think I know from the casing design. Begins with "L".
> 
> It also goes, be careful where you charge lights and don't leave them un-attended.


Certainly wont be leaving any unattended from now on.


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## DaveReading (7 Aug 2017)

fossyant said:


> What make was it ? It's fairly common issue with cheaper lights/batteries.



And cheap chargers.


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## User33236 (7 Aug 2017)

DaveReading said:


> And cheap chargers.


In this situation it was plugged into a genuine Apple charger thus presumably, though wrong on that front, giving a charging combination that was, relatively, safe.


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## Drago (7 Aug 2017)

The Apple chargers made in China?

Looks unpleasant, lucky it didn't start a fire.


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## numbnuts (7 Aug 2017)

One of these comes to mind
Lithium Polymer Charge Pack 25x33cm JUMBO Sack

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/lithium-polymer-charge-pack-25x33cm-jumbo-sack.html


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## classic33 (7 Aug 2017)

fossyant said:


> What make was it ? It's fairly common issue with cheaper lights/batteries.


Vettel had similar problems in a Red Bull Renault. Only the pack was larger & he was sat on top of it doing close on 200mph at the time.


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## Drago (7 Aug 2017)

Have Boeing not had the occasional similar problem in the 787?


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## User33236 (7 Aug 2017)

Drago said:


> The Apple chargers made in China?
> 
> Looks unpleasant, lucky it didn't start a fire.


Designed in California though


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## johnnyb47 (7 Aug 2017)

I used to fly rc helicopters a few years back when lipo battery's were making there way into the rc scene..They could be quite unpredictable back then and would only charge them in a safe place well away from anything combustible


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## classic33 (7 Aug 2017)

Drago said:


> Have Boeing not had the occasional similar problem in the 787?


Quantas A380


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## Wobblers (7 Aug 2017)

User33236 said:


> In this situation it was plugged into a genuine Apple charger thus presumably, though wrong on that front, giving a charging combination that was, relatively, safe.



I presume that it being charged through a USB port? In which case, the light was being supplied with 5 Volts. The common lithium ion cells should be charged to a maximum of 4.2 V. My suspicion is that the charger circuit failed (short circuit is a very common failure mode), allowing the full 5 V to get to the battery. Even a high quality cell will go pop quite spectacularly if treated that way. 

If the light was made by who I suspect, then it's (should be) of reasonable quality. You ought to email them that photo, and explain what happened. It could be a design fault, or that they got a batch of counterfeit charge supervisor chips (that sort of thing is surprisingly common!).


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## User33236 (7 Aug 2017)

McWobble said:


> I presume that it being charged through a USB port? In which case, the light was being supplied with 5 Volts. The common lithium ion cells should be charged to a maximum of 4.2 V. My suspicion is that the charger circuit failed (short circuit is a very common failure mode), allowing the full 5 V to get to the battery. Even a high quality cell will go pop quite spectacularly if treated that way.
> 
> If the light was made by who I suspect, then it's (should be) of reasonable quality. You ought to email them that photo, and explain what happened. It could be a design fault, or that they got a batch of counterfeit charge supervisor chips (that sort of thing is surprisingly common!).


The manufacturer has been emailed the photo and the circumstances explained to them. As yet no answer has been received but it is still early days. 

The charger has been checked out (I am an engineer who has over 25 years experience repairing and servicing medical equipment so have ample access to test gear) and is operating correctly. However it has been quarantined at home pending a response from the manufacturer and an alternative charger is currently being used, under supervision, for the remaining lights we have.


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## User16625 (8 Aug 2017)

User33236 said:


> The manufacturer has been emailed the photo and the circumstances explained to them. As yet no answer has been received but it is still early days.
> 
> The charger has been checked out (I am an engineer who has over 25 years experience repairing and servicing medical equipment so have ample access to test gear) and is operating correctly. However it has been quarantined at home pending a response from the manufacturer and an alternative charger is currently being used, under supervision, for the remaining lights we have.



Still irresponsible not to name them. By naming the company you would be giving people a heads up, and the potential to avoid buying products with safety issues. 

Is it Lezyne?


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## User16625 (8 Aug 2017)

Lets assume its lezyne.


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## slowmotion (8 Aug 2017)

RideLikeTheStig said:


> Still irresponsible not to name them. By naming the company you would be giving people a heads up, and the potential to avoid buying products with safety issues.
> 
> Is it Lezyne?


Looks like a Lezyne Road Drive to me. I was just about to re-charge mine! They cost north of £20, don't they?

Edit: Sorry, Micro Drive.


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## User33236 (8 Aug 2017)

RideLikeTheStig said:


> Still irresponsible not to name them. By naming the company you would be giving people a heads up, and the potential to avoid buying products with safety issues.
> 
> Is it Lezyne?


Without carrying out a root cause analysis, which the manufacturer has been offered all the evidence and materials for them to carry one out, it is irresponsible to 'name and shame'. A responsible company will then organise a coordinated recall, if required, of any unit suspected of being unsafe.

In the meantime it is not unreasonable to suggest care is taken when recharging ALL lights as have already been mentioned in this thread. 

On the other hand if they don't respond...................


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## Tom B (8 Aug 2017)

If you are in the UK contact upgrade bikes who are the UK agent. I found most helpful when I had issues with my Lezyne light.

Lezyne will only point you to them anyway


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## oldfatfool (8 Aug 2017)

We had a G Ram vac charger blow out of the wall socket at approx 2 months old, all company did was replace charger.


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## hoopdriver (8 Aug 2017)

classic33 said:


> Quantas A380


It was the 787 that famously had the troubles with the lithium batteries

And Qantas does not have a U in it

QANTAS is an acronym for Queensland and Northern Territory Aerial Services


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## Jamieyorky (8 Aug 2017)

I have this light !


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## DaveReading (8 Aug 2017)

Drago said:


> Have Boeing not had the occasional similar problem in the 787?



You could say that.


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## emilyisfun (8 Aug 2017)

User33236 said:


> Mrs SG placed one of her USB rechargeable lights on chanrge in the kitchen yesterday and came back through to watch a bit of tv. The best part of an hour later she went back through to make a coffee and found her lightabout a foot and a half away from the charger in the centre of a burnt section of rug. Thankfully, although keep, the rug was made of fire resistant materials and had extinguished itself.
> 
> The Li-ion battery within the light and the light itself has fared less well.
> 
> View attachment 366684


was this some cheep china bought stuff? where did you buy it?


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## jefmcg (8 Aug 2017)

RideLikeTheStig said:


> Is it Lezyne?


My lucky find in RP is starting to seem less and less lucky


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## Johnno260 (8 Aug 2017)

I'm considering getting a light that takes AA or AAA cells.

Every light I get, I'm disappointed with anyway.

I think it was Hope that was suggested to me?


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## dodgy (8 Aug 2017)

I wonder if keeping lights in an unused biscuit tin while charging is a sensible precaution? Keeps them away from anything instantly flammable and buys you some time?


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## Johnno260 (8 Aug 2017)

dodgy said:


> I wonder if keeping lights in an unused biscuit tin while charging is a sensible precaution? Keeps them away from anything instantly flammable and buys you some time?



I charge mine in the kitchen, on a glass chopping surface, not a fan on enclosing them in case heat builds up.


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## the_mikey (8 Aug 2017)

McWobble said:


> I presume that it being charged through a USB port? In which case, the light was being supplied with 5 Volts. The common lithium ion cells should be charged to a maximum of 4.2 V. My suspicion is that the charger circuit failed (short circuit is a very common failure mode), allowing the full 5 V to get to the battery. Even a high quality cell will go pop quite spectacularly if treated that way.
> 
> If the light was made by who I suspect, then it's (should be) of reasonable quality. You ought to email them that photo, and explain what happened. It could be a design fault, or that they got a batch of counterfeit charge supervisor chips (that sort of thing is surprisingly common!).



Indeed, some phone chargers supply more than 5v dc, and whilst they should default to the 5v USB standard it's not inconceivable that the output might vary. When I charge USB lights I use a plain old 5v 500mA charger.


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## dodgy (8 Aug 2017)

Johnno260 said:


> I charge mine in the kitchen, on a glass chopping surface, not a fan on enclosing them in case heat builds up.



At least they won't roll off the surface as happened to the OP


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## Johnno260 (8 Aug 2017)

dodgy said:


> At least they won't roll off the surface as happened to the OP



true there is that, but it's the other reason I use the kitchen, nothing flammable on the sideboard, glass surface and tiled floor.

No way I trust these things near a wooden/carpeted floor etc.


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## CUBE CRD (8 Aug 2017)

I charge my lights with the usb lead supplied,on a non combustible surface and the charger plug is one of those surge protected jobbies from Masterplug.


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## classic33 (8 Aug 2017)

CUBE CRD said:


> I charge my lights with the usb lead supplied,on a non combustible surface and the charger plug is one of those surge protected jobbies from Masterplug.


The surge protection is there to protect anything plugged into them from a surge in supply. Not to prevent anything plugged into them delivering a power surge.


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## mjr (8 Aug 2017)

User33236 said:


> In this situation it was plugged into a genuine Apple charger thus presumably, though wrong on that front, giving a charging combination that was, relatively, safe.


Genuine Apple charger for what, though? Some of them are 2.1A output and some lights (anyone with the same Lezyne like to tell us what it says on an unmelted one) only want 0.5A (standard PC USB).

Anyway, always charge this stuff on a heatproof mat. Even some big brands use sadly cheap batteries or chargers.


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## CUBE CRD (8 Aug 2017)

classic33 said:


> The surge protection is there to protect anything plugged into them from a surge in supply. Not to prevent anything plugged into them delivering a power surge.



Yeah,i'm aware of that.I should have been a little clearer.
I try and use as safe a set up as possible,both to protect my equipment and the surrounding furnishings.


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## User33236 (8 Aug 2017)

dodgy said:


> At least they won't roll off the surface as happened to the OP


It didn't roll off a surface. It was pluged into a standad wall socket about a foot or so up from floor level and projectoed itself outwards from there.


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## Milkfloat (8 Aug 2017)

mjr said:


> Genuine Apple charger for what, though? Some of them are 2.1A output and some lights (anyone with the same Lezyne like to tell us what it says on an unmelted one) only want 0.5A (standard PC USB).



My understanding is that it is pull rather than a push - just because the charger can provide 2.1A does not mean that it has to - that is up to the device drawing the power?


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## User33236 (8 Aug 2017)

mjr said:


> Genuine Apple charger for what, though? Some of them are 2.1A output and some lights (anyone with the same Lezyne like to tell us what it says on an unmelted one) only want 0.5A (standard PC USB).
> 
> Anyway, always charge this stuff on a heatproof mat. Even some big brands use sadly cheap batteries or chargers.


Whiltst a charger may be able to deliver 2.1A there in no guarantee that a device will draw that and a resposible manufacturer would ensure their devices were designed to limit charge current to a safe level.

EDIT: @Milkfloat beat me to it 

I have another two, unmelted, lights of the same model. There is no writing on any to state charging voltage or current.


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## mjr (8 Aug 2017)

Milkfloat said:


> My understanding is that it is pull rather than a push - just because the charger can provide 2.1A does not mean that it has to - that is up to the device drawing the power?


Yes, but some Apple chargers did deeply non-standard shoot like sending voltages along the data lines to control the current supply. I don't trust any Apple or Samsung USB chargers to behave sensibly with dumb devices.



User33236 said:


> ...and a resposible manufacturer would ensure their devices were designed to limit charge current to a safe level.


Indeed, but I thought we were talking about Lezyne?


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## User33236 (8 Aug 2017)

mjr said:


> Yes, but some Apple chargers did deeply non-standard shoot like sending voltages along the data lines to control the current supply. I don't trust any Apple or Samsung USB chargers to behave sensibly with dumb devices.
> 
> 
> Indeed, but I thought we were talking about Lezyne?


Up until now I have not mentioned Lezyne anywhere in this thread 

However now you have brought Lezyne up in the context you did I presume you have evidence to defend yourself in any defamation lawsuit that may, hypothetically, result?


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## PhilDawson8270 (8 Aug 2017)

mjr said:


> Yes, but some Apple chargers did deeply non-standard shoot like sending voltages along the data lines to control the current supply. I don't trust any Apple or Samsung USB chargers to behave sensibly with dumb devices.
> 
> 
> Indeed, but I thought we were talking about Lezyne?



That's actually standard. 

There's a default low limit, which I believe is 5v 500mA. The charger will only supply more upon a successful handshake with the device via data lines to charger to enable higher currents, or higher voltages.


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## mjr (8 Aug 2017)

User33236 said:


> However now you have brought Lezyne up in the context you did I presume you have evidence to defend yourself in any defamation lawsuit that may, hypothetically, result?


I'm just saying who I thought we were discussing based on the posts above.

Anyway, whoever it is, is it a responsible company that has responded to a report of one of its products catching fire within a working day?


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## User33236 (8 Aug 2017)

mjr said:


> I'm just saying who I thought we were discussing based on the posts above.
> 
> Anyway, whoever it is, is it a responsible company that has responded to a report of one of its products catching fire within a working day?


Yes. Mrs SG received a message yesterday evening from the manufacturer asking for full contact details and will then pass it on to their UK supplier to investigate 'as a matter of urgency'.


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## jefmcg (8 Aug 2017)

User33236 said:


> Up until now I have not mentioned Lezyne anywhere in this thread
> 
> However now you have brought Lezyne up in the context you did I presume you have evidence to defend yourself in any defamation lawsuit that may, hypothetically, result?


Assuming it is lezyne, I don't think it's defamatory to say that their battery flew 45cm and burnt your rug, if it's true. Possibly making broader statements about their quality control might be, but no one has done that.

And if there was to be any suing, it's @Shaun, @fossyant, @Tom B, @RideLikeTheStig, and possibly you before @mjr.


fossyant said:


> Begins with "L".





Tom B said:


> If you are in the UK contact upgrade bikes who are the UK agent. I found most helpful when I had issues with my Lezyne light.
> 
> Lezyne will only point you to them anyway





RideLikeTheStig said:


> Lets assume its lezyne.


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## User33236 (8 Aug 2017)

jefmcg said:


> Assuming it is lezyne, I don't think it's defamatory to say that their battery flew 45cm and burnt your rug, if it's true. Possibly making broader statements about their quality control might be, but no one has done that.
> 
> And if there was to be any suing, it's @Shaun, @fossyant, @Tom B, @RideLikeTheStig, and possibly you before @mjr.


The latter, I am presuming jokingly, was the only one to appear to associate Lezyne as a brand that was not responsible.


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## classic33 (8 Aug 2017)

User33236 said:


> The latter, I am presuming jokingly, was the only one to appear to associate Lezyne as a brand that *was bot responsible.*


Those bots get everywhere.


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## classic33 (8 Aug 2017)

jefmcg said:


> And if there was to be any suing, it's @Shaun, @fossyant, @Tom B, @RideLikeTheStig, and possibly you before @mjr.


Why Shaun? Rules are quite clear
_"You are responsible for your own posts. If another member breaks rules, you may ignore them or report the problem to the moderators, but you may not use it as an excuse to break rules yourself"_


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## classic33 (8 Aug 2017)

User33236 said:


> Yes. Mrs SG received a message yesterday evening from the manufacturer asking for full contact details and will then pass it on to their UK supplier to investigate 'as a matter of urgency'.


Be careful with the light. Once it's sent back you lose all proof.


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## mjr (8 Aug 2017)

User33236 said:


> The latter, I am presuming jokingly, was the only one to appear to associate Lezyne as a brand that was bot responsible.


I've no qualms about repeating that I regard Lezyne as irresponsible due to selling "Drive" lights without marking them clearly as additional lights which do not satisfy the Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations, so are unsuitable for actually driving a bicycle on our roads. I'm pretty confident that calling them irresponsible for that is fair comment and it would be surprising if they started screaming defamation for what is basically a bad review! I'm surprised anyone would think they're so petty.


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## User33236 (8 Aug 2017)

classic33 said:


> Be careful with the light. Once it's sent back you lose all proof.


I plan to get my SLR set up and take plenty of photos of it before it leaves our possession


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## User33236 (8 Aug 2017)

mjr said:


> I've no qualms about repeating that I regard Lezyne as irresponsible due to selling "Drive" lights without marking them clearly as additional lights which do not satisfy the Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations, so are unsuitable for actually driving a bicycle on our roads. I'm pretty confident that calling them irresponsible for that is fair comment and it would be surprising if they started screaming defamation for what is basically a bad review! I'm surprised anyone would think they're so petty.


Don't forget my original post on this point had a  in it 

On your basis then I presume the vast majority of light brands in the UK are irresponsible?

Anyway lets not get distracted from the dangers of rechargeable lights. Lezyne in this case have been acting in a responsible and concerned manner to date, as one would expect, but they are not the only manufacturer to have instances of Li-ion batteries fail dramatically during charging.

I certainly am changing my charging practices in chargers used, location where there are charged, placing them in a fire resistance container whilst charging and finally, and probably most importantly, not having them on charge when I am not in the room.


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## fossyant (8 Aug 2017)

Any lipo battery can go bang. You just need to be careful. They carry 4.2volts and a fair amount of amps, not like your AA's. A shorted circuit, and they very quickly overheat.

Protection circuits that limit current/volts are a big cause of failures.


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## Supersuperleeds (8 Aug 2017)

If they want to they will be able to brush you off as I would wager that if you read the safety info that came with the light it will state you should only charge it with the supplied charger. A reputable company may offer you a free light on a no liability basis just to get rid of you and any potential problems.


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## jefmcg (8 Aug 2017)

Supersuperleeds said:


> it will state you should only charge it with the supplied charger.


Looks like they don't (at least not always) supply a charger
"Zecto is supplied with Micro USB to USB cable and easily charged from any USB plug. Charging indicators built into side LEDs."

(I'm pretty sure my non-Lezyne rechargeable came with a cable, but not a wall wart.)


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## Supersuperleeds (8 Aug 2017)

jefmcg said:


> Looks like they don't (at least not always) supply a charger
> "Zecto is supplied with Micro USB to USB cable and easily charged from any USB plug. Charging indicators built into side LEDs."
> 
> (I'm pretty sure my non-Lezyne rechargeable came with a cable, but not a wall wart.)



In which case I stand corrected.


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## fossyant (8 Aug 2017)

Most lights don't meet the RVLR recommendations, and neither I or the police are bothered. If you can clearly be seen, then fine ! Not one of my lights are RVLR. The Police, the third party's insurer all thought my cycle lights were more than adequate - just the driver did not meet minimum standards .


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## fossyant (8 Aug 2017)

jefmcg said:


> Looks like they don't (at least not always) supply a charger
> "Zecto is supplied with Micro USB to USB cable and easily charged from any USB plug. Charging indicators built into side LEDs."
> 
> (I'm pretty sure my non-Lezyne rechargeable came with a cable, but not a wall wart.)



Most don't - they rely on chips/resistors in the light to regulate the charge.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (8 Aug 2017)

4 pages and no mention of cree/chinese/ebay

It's early in the year I suppose


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## User33236 (8 Aug 2017)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> 4 pages and no mention of cree/chinese/ebay
> 
> It's early in the year I suppose


I could understand better if it was the li-ion batteries in the el-cheapo pack for my cree/chinese/ebay light that had gone pop. These have always been very closely monitored during charge


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (8 Aug 2017)

User33236 said:


> I could understand better if it was the li-ion batteries in the el-cheapo pack for my cree/chinese/ebay light that had gone pop. These have always been very closely monitored during charge


True. My annoyance with battery stories is that people often (usually battery/charging issues) inadvertantly blame cree, cree don't make self combusting lights or batteries, they make led chips..

All will become clear within the next two months


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## jefmcg (8 Aug 2017)

User33236 said:


> The latter, I am presuming jokingly, was the only one to appear to associate Lezyne as a brand that was not responsible.


Well, Lezyne would be morons to sue for that aside. I've got one of their pumps. They are not morons.


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## jefmcg (8 Aug 2017)

mjr said:


> without marking them clearly as additional lights which do not satisfy the Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations,


Forgive my ignorance, but I have never seen lights that either claimed they meet these regs or disclaim they don't. Do most of the other lights on the market do this?


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## User33236 (8 Aug 2017)

fossyant said:


> Any lipo battery can go bang. You just need to be careful. They carry 4.2volts and a fair amount of amps, not like your AA's. A shorted circuit, and they very quickly overheat.
> 
> Protection circuits that limit current/volts are a big cause of failures.


Best batteries I have come across for low internal resistance hence stonkingly high short circuit current were Cyclon batteries fitted to the old Graseby infusion pumps. As it was a medical device batteries not routinely changed during servicing. Even the old ones in a reasonably flat state would set the top of them on fire if shorted out for only a few seconds.


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## mjr (8 Aug 2017)

fossyant said:


> Most lights don't meet the RVLR recommendations, and neither I or the police are bothered.


And that's part of why this country's going to hell in a handbasket, but we've had the lighting laws discussion a few times before.



fossyant said:


> If you can clearly be seen, then fine ! Not one of my lights are RVLR. The Police, the third party's insurer all thought my cycle lights were more than adequate - just the driver did not meet minimum standards .


To be fair, a driver shouldn't hit an unlit person walking along/across the road either - so because their driving was substandard, your lights are basically irrelevant.



jefmcg said:


> Forgive my ignorance, but I have never seen lights that either claimed they meet these regs or disclaim they don't. Do most of the other lights on the market do this?


No, most lights sold in the UK are junk from irresponsible companies sold by irresponsible retailers. A market for lemons and caveat emptor - if the police ever do put their own house in order and start fining illegally lit vehicles, you ain't gonna get the money back from Half-odds, Evens or Wriggle-out-of-responsibility. Strangely, Chain Reaction point out that Lezyne lights aren't enough in Germany, but don't bother to mention that they're not enough in the UK either.


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