# Braking on the hoods



## david1701 (2 May 2011)

Hi all,

I've just gotten a tricross with Tektro Canti brakes (wide front, narrow back) and both cross levers and normal ones. I haven't tried braking hard from the fronts as yet but today I very nearly hit a car deacelerating in front of me while I was on the hoods because I just couldn't stop hard enough (I finally stopped level with his rear wheel on the inside as he was quite far out). I tried afterwards and I can lock up and stop quick from the tops (on the cross levers) but the hoods just slow me down some instead :s

Is this because V brakes are shitty, I'm holding them wrong or just don't try to stop using the hoods?

My current plan is to stay on the tops in urban areas but thats not great long term really.


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## corshamjim (2 May 2011)

That's one reason I'm not a great fan of drops. For me, braking on the hoods is never as positive as ordinary brake levers. Heck, I even preferred the Weinemann extension levers to braking on the hoods.

That said, you should be able to stop. Maybe try different brake pads, or check the adjustment?


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## david1701 (2 May 2011)

nb it has had maybe a hundred miles done so far so they could be bedding in, but year I'd like to be able to stop 

so decent pads for V brakes....... (goes to forum search)


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## buggi (2 May 2011)

What type of brake levers have you got? chances are, it's not because Vee brakes are shoot, it's because they are not designed to go with the type of brake levers that are for caliper brakes (such as 105) which are standard on drop handlebars. caliper brakes require less pull on them so you need to get a cable adjuster or a "travel agent" put on the brake cable, which is a small gadget that will increase the pull/travel of the cable when you pull the brake lever. 

i have got caliper brake levers and vee brakes, with a cable adjuster and my brakes work fine, even when i'm on the hoods. The guy in the bike shop recommended the travel agent, but i'd already had the cable adjuster fitted, so i think either is fine. 

Also, are you used to these type of brake levers ? have you had drop handlebars before? i also thought they were shoot when i first used them, but someone told me they are not designed to stop you dead like normal brake levers, as road bikes are much faster than moutain/hybrid bikes and you'd just go over the handlebars if they stopped you dead. made sense to me and you quickly become used to the fact that they stop you slower, and you anticipate the traffic better. also, your hands will strengthen up to compensate for this.


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## mcshroom (2 May 2011)

Save you searching - Koolstop Salmons are the normal suggestion 

Are you sure you want v-brake pads not cantilever pads though? The Tricross is normally specced with canti brakes
Try and reach lower down on the drop bar levers as you get much better braking lower down the lever.


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## david1701 (2 May 2011)

I am a fool, I thought they were canti's and got into a minor 'discussion' with a friend who was sure they were Vs and made me doubt, just grabbed a spec and they're tektro cantis  will change OP in a sec

so are we on not broken in? I'm quite seriously considering calling the shop I bought it from as I picked it up last Tuesday and they were in general dead helpful

I'm with you on getting more force by having more leverage further down but I can't really reach that far? Or is it something you get used to as I've been riding on drop bars for 4 days now 

I have realised that I was going way faster than I normally would have been as I was doing 20-25 on a slight downhill in traffic (cars make me ride faster) so maybe that has something to do with it, as does coming from having a front disk so I should have been further back...


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## kilf (2 May 2011)

Rough the pads up with emery cloth an make sure your rims are clean ...but to be fair I've heard Tektro pads are shite my Secteur dont exactly stop on a dime ( same brake makers )

What make are you STI levers you can either bring them closer via adjustment (download Pdf from brake manufacturer) or fit shims to bring them closer which you should have.


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## david1701 (2 May 2011)

cheers kilf


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## MacB (2 May 2011)

Well if the crosstops work fine then it's either a loss problem between there and the full levers or the full levers are pulling effectively a different amount of cable, or a combination of the two. The crosstops work by compressing the cable outer but, if you look, there'll be nice clean runs from them to the brake. But from the crosstops to the main lever the cable has to take lots of twists and tight turns.

When I was setting up my road mechanical discs with aero levers and crosstops I followed a recommendation to use compressionless brake cable outer, I chose Goodridge(you can buy by the metre at CRC). I've since ditched the crosstop for the rear brake as I only really wanted them for modulation if didn't want to move my hands and the front is fine for that. Also, as the rear is a full cable outer run, I'm happier without a break in the cable outer run. I've worked with normal cable outers and Goodridge ones and the difference is very noticeable, that stuff is stiff. It could be worth doing an experiment and replacing the cable outer, for your front brake, between the crosstop and the main lever, probably needs around 20cm of outer.

There're lots other things you can try around setup but it's not unusual to read about people getting rid of crosstops to improve main lever performance. I've read claims about how they can get the brake adjusted so that one or the other lever works fine but not both of them. If your problem is compression in the last bit of cable run then something like the Goodridge could fix it.


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## slowmotion (2 May 2011)

david1701 said:


> I'm with you on getting more force by having more leverage further down but I can't really reach that far? Or is it something you get used to as I've been riding on drop bars for 4 days now




I feel your pain. After being used to a straight bar hybrid, I have found that the last three months on drop bar brakes a bit of a challenge. There is no way that I can put any great force onto the brake levers when on the hoods (or the drops, for that matter). Maybe road bikes are not designed for sharp braking. Is that theory correct?


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## HLaB (2 May 2011)

Its maybe teaching granny to suck eggs David, apologies if it is but could it possibly have been your braking technique, I find its better to feather control speed with the rear brake but then use the front brake to actually stop.


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## david1701 (3 May 2011)

@MacB its brand spanking new so if theres a main brake-cross brake issue I'll be taking it back in angry fashion 

@slowmotion I have that but I'm missing disks too 

@HLaB don't worry about that, I've been properly into cycling for months and on a road type bike for days  I've to date just kinda hit both brakes to stop/slow. Whats the reasoning behind using the rear for speed and front to stop? Oh and what would you be doing in that particular circumstance (cruising behind car at decent pace and he slows then stops (I hit both brakes from the hoods and slowed then stopped too slowly)

This help is much appreciated guys.


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## HLaB (3 May 2011)

david1701 said:


> @MacB its brand spanking new so if theres a main brake-cross brake issue I'll be taking it back in angry fashion
> 
> @slowmotion I have that but I'm missing disks too
> 
> ...



This might explain it, its all about getting maximum efficiency out of your brakes and control; although I probably feather more with my rear brake than the article suggest.


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## MacB (3 May 2011)

david1701 said:


> @MacB its brand spanking new so if theres a main brake-cross brake issue I'll be taking it back in angry fashion



I know, I don't think it's a setup issue just that regular brake cable outer may not lend itself well to aero levers and crosstops. It could be something else entirely and, as I haven't done a comparison on the same brakes with both types of cable outer, I can't make any definite claims about improvements. Just thought I'd throw it into the mix as a possible issue or possible fix.


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## david1701 (3 May 2011)

read it cover to cover, going to go and practice now. It all makes perfect sense, rear to slow or off road and front to actually stop you. Not like in cars where you use both 70:30


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## chugsy (3 May 2011)

Did you not test the bike before buying? I recently road tested a Kona Jake and the brakes were shocking going downhill - on the hoods nothing and on the drops I could only slow down gradually - no wheel locking at all. The bike I chose in the end has calipers which were better in the I could slow down kinda from the hoods but could not muster the strength or leverage to stop the bike on a dime. I accepted this and bought the bike anyway - looked on this forum for advice on replacement pads which have made all the difference. Sometimes you have to accept that new bikes need upgrades immediately - like tyres for instance 

It also doesn't help if your previous bike had hydraulic disc brakes (like mine) it's a bit of a culture shock to say the least!


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## david1701 (3 May 2011)

I had cable disks and I tested 3 bikes that day and this had the best brakes  its just that now I go faster and need to stop quicker (coupled with the reduction in power)


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## chugsy (3 May 2011)

If nothing else at least you'll increase your road awareness skills to compensate for poorer brakes


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## John the Monkey (3 May 2011)

Tektro pads are crap - Koolstop Salmon, or Fibrax Extreme are what you need.

Also - if the brakes are the type with a link wire rather than a traditional straddle, generally junking the link wire & using a traditional straddle (I like the triangular Tektro ones) will give you more adjustment.


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## BentMikey (3 May 2011)

You should be able to do a stoppie from the hoods.


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## buddha (3 May 2011)

I've had exactly the same experience as the OP: 

Canti's on my Pompino + new to drop bars = stopping between kerb and car's rear wheel. Made me think about getting liability insurance.

However, a few months later I'd become used to braking on the hoods and haven't had a major problem since. In my case I started to use the 'ring finger' (next to little-finger) more. Rotating the levers up a few degrees also helped with reach.

Then, when I switched to koolstop pads, braking was further improved.

I admit though, in comparison, canti's are rubbish.


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## Cletus Van Damme (3 May 2011)

I've got a Secteur Sport that had Tektro pads on and they were utter shoot. I just could not stop the bike safely whilst on the drops or the hoods and was tempted to change the Tektro calipers but decided to try pads first. I changed mine to Clarks CPS240 and the difference is like night and day. Never tried Koolstops but these are cheaper and very good for the money, although they are difficult to get hold of.


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## tincaman (3 May 2011)

if its a new bike then the pads are likely to be low quality. Change them now! Look for koolstops


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## fossyant (3 May 2011)

BentMikey said:


> You should be able to do a stoppie from the hoods.




+1.

I generally ride on the hoods, certainly in traffic, and you should be able to stop on a sixpence. 

Better pads.


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## ColinJ (3 May 2011)

And make sure your rims are clean too. I was having scary braking problems until I scrubbed my rims. It turned out that I'd got oily crap on the them which had reduced brake efficiency to about 10% of what it is now.


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## tyred (3 May 2011)

I used to always find brakes on all drop bars were shoot but practice, and seemingly building a little more strength in my hands mean I can now stop safely from the hoods, even with antique Weinmann brake levers.


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## ColinJ (3 May 2011)

tyred said:


> I used to always find brakes on all drop bars were shoot but practice, and seemingly building a little more strength in my hands mean I can now stop safely from the hoods, even with antique Weinmann brake levers.


I don't have strong hands but I can stop my bike so quickly from the hoods that I'd be in danger of going over the bars. 

If good brakes are set up properly, decent quality brake blocks are used and the wheel rims are clean, easy braking from the hoods should be considered the norm.


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## Wankelschrauben (3 May 2011)

Here I was thinking road brakes and drop levers were incredibly good.


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## numbnuts (3 May 2011)

BentMikey said:


> You should be able to do a stoppie from the hoods.


+2 big hands help


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## 3narf (3 May 2011)

Why do cyclocross bikes still have cantilever brakes? They were obsolete on mountain bikes 18 years ago.


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## BentMikey (3 May 2011)

numbnuts said:


> +2 big hands help



I have wimpy arms and hands, LOL!


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## John the Monkey (3 May 2011)

3narf said:


> Why do cyclocross bikes still have cantilever brakes? They were obsolete on mountain bikes 18 years ago.



1) The UCI has only just approved discs for competition - expect a lot more disc braked crossers soon.
2) No other sort of rim brake that works with road levers has the clearances required for 'cross.


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## gaz (3 May 2011)

From my personal experience of going from mountain bikes to road bikes. I found at first my hands where not strong enough to give a good pull on the leaver from the hoods. And i found it difficult to stop at first. But after a few weeks it was fine.

As others have said you should be able to stop pretty quickly with the hoods.


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## Davidc (3 May 2011)

John the Monkey said:


> Tektro pads are crap - Koolstop Salmon, or Fibrax Extreme are what you need.



Yes.

The dual compound Koolstop ones seem to be recommended for cantilever brakes and I've found them excellent. I do still have one of the sets of original Tektro ones on the back where they are adequate.

I left my originals on for a couple of months. When I changed to Koolstops on the front I'd got used to the originals and had the back wheel off the ground several times! 

Also agree with ColinJ about cleaning the rims. I do mine now as part of the fortnightly routine maintenance.

I can't verify it but was told years ago by an LBS that not only do clean rims work better, but they also last longer, especially if you also use emery board to clean up the pads and get rid of embedded grit.


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## MacB (3 May 2011)

Pad advice is all well and good but the OP said that his brakes performed well from the crosstops but not well from the main levers. While clean rims and new pads are advisable for the future I'd suggest they won't resolve that discrepancy.


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## david1701 (3 May 2011)

MacB said:


> Pad advice is all well and good but the OP said that his brakes performed well from the crosstops but not well from the main levers. While clean rims and new pads are advisable for the future I'd suggest they won't resolve that discrepancy.



I think the cross tops being better is because I have more strength in that kind of pull.

I've been riding today and imo my brakes are getting better, I'm gonna clean the rims and order some new koolstops for the front when I order my sisters tyres (when these invoices get paid)


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## John the Monkey (3 May 2011)

MacB said:


> Pad advice is all well and good but the OP said that his brakes performed well from the crosstops but not well from the main levers. While clean rims and new pads are advisable for the future I'd suggest they won't resolve that discrepancy.



Could be technique - leverage from the hoods can be different to in the drops, depending on where on the lever you apply the force.


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## ACS (3 May 2011)

MacB said:


> Pad advice is all well and good but the OP said that his brakes performed well from the crosstops but not well from the main levers. While clean rims and new pads are advisable for the future I'd suggest they won't resolve that discrepancy.



I own 2 Tricross Sport (long story) one has suicide levers fitted (56cm) the other (58cm) has had them removed and I find myself agreeing with the OP braking using the main leavers on the 56cm is atrocious. However main lever performance is vastly improved with top levers removed.

I use the 56cm for commuting and find myself using the top levers almost all the time. Whereas the 58cm is used as a 'weekend-audax' type machine so I rarely mix it with town traffic. 

Echo what others have said brake pad choice is critical. I use Aztec pads for commuting and Koolstops on the 58cm. I did purchase some Clarks pads and they where useless.

Another factor is brake set up I find I have to tweak the 56cm every two weeks or so, reduce the gap slightly just to keep the brakes sharp.


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## MacB (3 May 2011)

Now don't start calling them suicide levers, they were a very different thing to the modern crosstops. I actually agree with everything being said about pads, rims, hand positions for braking etc, but I also believe it's perfectly possible to have main lever issues due to poor cabling between the two levers.

Still it's a very easy thing to check, if you touch the main lever there should be an immediate reaction at brake caliper, if there isn't, if the lever travels before actuation begins then you have losses. I've suggested a compressionless outer between the two levers as a fix, but another option may be to move the crosstop lever slightly. A mm or two in either direction may be all that it needs, if you have main lever losses that is.

However if this simple test shows some losses, as it's a new bike, I'd pop back to the shop and get them to sort it. If you act aggrieved enough you may even get some better pads thrown in


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## ColinJ (3 May 2011)

MacB said:


> Pad advice is all well and good but the OP said that his brakes performed well from the crosstops but not well from the main levers. While clean rims and new pads are advisable for the future I'd suggest they won't resolve that discrepancy.


I can lock my wheels braking from the drops using one finger on each lever. From the hoods, it takes me three fingers. That leaves one spare on each hand! 

It is definitely _harder_ to brake from the hoods, but it shouldn't be _difficult_!


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## MacB (3 May 2011)

ColinJ said:


> I can lock my wheels braking from the drops using one finger on each lever. From the hoods, it takes me three fingers. That leaves one spare on each hand!
> 
> It is definitely _harder_ to brake from the hoods, but it shouldn't be _difficult_!



That would be my thoughts, using the main lever all you're doing is pulling the cable, hopefully with as little friction as possible. But the crosstop works by pushing on the cable outer, so a harder thing to do, certainly mine needs more effort than my main lever.


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## ColinJ (4 May 2011)

MacB said:


> That would be my thoughts, using the main lever all you're doing is pulling the cable, hopefully with as little friction as possible. But the crosstop works by pushing on the cable outer, so a harder thing to do, certainly mine needs more effort than my main lever.


Ah, I wondered how they worked - now I know!


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## greenmark (4 May 2011)

The geometry in cantis mean that you only need to make some very small changes in the set up to hugely affect the mechanical advantage. Changing brake pads help but often much of the improvement people get with the kool stops is from the changes in geometry that happen from inserting the new brake shoes, not from the pads themselves. Based on http://www.circleacy...ti-geometry.pdf you can maximise braking power in Tektro cantis by doing the following: 

Step 1: set up the shoe arm so that it is perpendicular with the rim when the brake pad touches the rim.

Step 2: attach the canti arms to the shoe arms so that they are as wide as possible when the brakes are closed.
Basically this means attaching the canti arms as far out along the brake shoes as possible while at the same time still making sure that you keep the shoe arms perpendicular to the rim.

Step 3: lower the yoke on the main cable so that the straddle wire is as short as possible and the yoke is as low as you can get it while giving you clearance for your tyre or mudguard.

The set up above will be somewhat similar with Super-wide arm cantis but you need to move the yoke further up the brake cable. This isn't likely to apply to even the Tektro wide arm cantis... it's only to _super-_wide arm cantis.


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## smokeysmoo (7 May 2011)

My Focus Mares AX 1.0 has Avid Shorty 4's and no cross top levers. Orignally the brake performance was pretty poor, swopped the pads and it's now perfectly acceptable, still not as good as any of the road calipers on my other bikes, but good enough none the less.

I had thought of fitting cross top levers, but as I'm used to braking on the hoods I can't be @rsed


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## smokeysmoo (16 May 2011)

3narf said:


> Why do cyclocross bikes still have cantilever brakes? They were obsolete on mountain bikes 18 years ago.




Mud clearance. Apparently they are perfect for what they are meant for, ie: tearing across muddy fields in cyclo cross. Then you put one the road, and wahey, you can't freakin' stop!


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## mcshroom (16 May 2011)

I seem to be able to stop well enough on mine


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## gbs (19 May 2011)

This thread prompted me to experiment and I found that

start from the default positon on the hoods ie the V between thumb and index finger is centred on the hood top
 slip the hand down and around so that the thumb knuckle now rests on the hood top
this gives better accesss to the end of the lever and hence more leverage
I have not yet tried this in an emergency and I have not attempted to replicate an emergency but certainly this works for me in ordinary circumstances.


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