# Bike weight limits



## stuarttunstall (10 May 2018)

Hi

Can someone advise... I am getting a Scott Sub Cross 10 2018 next week which has a weight limit according to the specification of 120KG... Now although I am on a weight loss program, getting down from 27 stone to about 19/20 stone now which puts me on the limit or maybe just over ...FOR NOW... I am still loosing 

Evans Cycles say I will be OK but will need to maybe get the wheels serviced more regular...

My question is if I am over the 120KG still as I have not weighed myself recently, is there a safe margin like all weight related things... i.e it is rated at 120KG what they say is 100% safe but will actually be safe to ride higher, maybe 130KG ? Evans Cycles assistant does say they include a safe margin which would make sense 

As I say I am still loosing and it seems quite quick at the moment with 4 days gym 

Stu


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## Slick (10 May 2018)

Congratulations on the continued weight loss. You will be fine on the bike but as you have already been told, you may need to keep a closer eye on the wheels or even better, upgrade to hand built to suit your weight currently. There's a number of people out there who could probably do with the same advice including myself.


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## Vantage (10 May 2018)

I reckon you'll be ok. Bikes are overbuilt to take the strain of not only the riders weight but also incase said rider decides to be adventurous or daring...jumps etc.
Scott state the bike is built to take on touring trips so there's the added strength needed for heavy panniers too.
The wheels may need tweaking from time to time but that depends on your use and how well built they are.


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## stuarttunstall (10 May 2018)

Thank you ... At my last diabetic check up a couple of months ago I was 133KG on there scales, but since then I have pressed on well and suspect I will be getting to around the 120KG now but at most I would say I am around 125-127KG mark ...

Note to self... Use scales at gym and find out lol


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## stuarttunstall (10 May 2018)

Vantage said:


> I reckon you'll be ok. Bikes are overbuilt to take the strain of not only the riders weight but also incase said rider decides to be adventurous or daring...jumps etc.
> Scott state the bike is built to take on touring trips so there's the added strength needed for heavy panniers too.
> The wheels may need tweaking from time to time but that depends on your use and how well built they are.



That is what Evans Cycle said... I am hoping I will get below the "limit" of 120KG before too long  I seems to be doing well going by my cloths looking massive again, oh and my trousers falling down easy and another notch used on my belt lol 

I think most stuff that has a weight limit is what they guarantee as safe but the item can be designed to take more... just in case...


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## Slick (10 May 2018)

This guy is pretty cool, his staff are much the same and they understand exactly what's required. Not much use to you in York but more for anyone else in the area looking for a proper job. 

http://www.wheelcraft.net


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## the_craig (10 May 2018)

As highlighted above, the frame will support you no problem but it will be the wheels that will suffer the most. Speaking to a custom wheel builder means that they will build a wheel that will be pretty much bullet proof with the added back up of fixing any issues.



Slick said:


> This guy is pretty cool, his staff are much the same and they understand exactly what's required. Not much use to you in York but more for anyone else in the area looking for a proper job.
> 
> http://www.wheelcraft.net



As Slick mentioned, Big Al is a fantastic wheel builder. He told me that he made a wheelset for someone who weighed 30st. I’m sure he does wheels for the British para-athletes too. I’m 100kg and the rear wheel he build me is solid, I’m just waiting on payday to get a new front wheel.


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## GuyBoden (10 May 2018)

Spa cycles Harrogate might be nearer for you, they build strong wheels for touring.
https://www.spacycles.co.uk/m2b0s178p0/Parts-and-Accessories/Wheels-Handbuilt-Wheelsets-(700c)

Spa cycles Harrogate, 
48A Camwal Road, 
Harrogate, 
HG1 4PT, 
Tel:01423 887003

Google map Location: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place...44b14f164f3a1675!8m2!3d54.000885!4d-1.5015852


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## Drago (10 May 2018)

Until recently I was a whisker under 117 and had no problems on any bikes or wheels, old or new. Just be sure you get an appropriate frame size and don't ride around on a toddler with acres of seat post showing, as all that leverage and a nice big weight can cause frames to fail around the crossbar/seat tube junction. Other than that, you'll be absolutely fine.


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## si_c (10 May 2018)

I'd not worry about it at all, especially if your weight is trending down. The bike frame should be more than sufficiently well built to handle that sort of weight, the issue is, as Evans said, the wheels. 

Speaking of wheels - yes potentially you might run into problems down the road, they may fatigue quicker leading you to replace the spokes sooner than might otherwise be the case. Also worth considering is how you ride the bike, if you keep to smoother road surfaces and bike paths then no problem, but if you are in the habit of jumping off curbs or bunny hopping speed bumps then you'll further reduce the lifespan of the wheels.

Ultimately if you're just getting into cycling, it's not something I would worry about or give too much consideration to. Buy the bike you want and then just keep it maintained.


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## Kajjal (10 May 2018)

It has fairly wide tyres and looks fine. Just ride it and see what happens, trying to keep off anything rough and don’t go off road for the moment. It’s mainly sharp, sudden impacts that can cause problems.


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## stuarttunstall (10 May 2018)

Thank you for all the advice, I am mainly going on roads and at 53 tooooooo old for anything cross country lol .... I think I am only just above the weight limit stated really, and decreasing... must weight myself really to see how well I am doing... 

I will keep an eye on things... 

Must say I NEVER thought I would become a cyclist again after 35 years plus, but I am looking forward to it...especially now as I had a message from Evans Cycles when I asked if it would arrive earlier now the website say's in remote warehouse  

This is the reply.... 

*"Hello Stuart, The status you see online "remote warehouse" means supplier stock, so they have stock ready and waiting to be sent over to us once an order gets placed. The good news about your bike, is its due in to our main warehouse from the supplier tomorrow. So you should hear from the store next week ( most likely Tuesday) to arrange a collection appointment. Glad to hear you are excited, its a good feeling when you know the bike is just around the corner. Thanks. Jack"*

I must say I am impressed with the quality of service I have received from Evans by Email, Facebook messages and in the York store, I would recommend them.. as I would this forum... great advice


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## Ming the Merciless (10 May 2018)

Are Evans willing underwrite anything breaking if you are over the 120kg limit? If they are confident then they will put it in writing as part of the sale. If jot, then they are just after a sale. I would expect the manufacturer to say no if you need to make a claim.


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## Ianboydsnr (10 May 2018)

YukonBoy said:


> Are Evans willing underwrite anything breaking if you are over the 120kg limit? If they are confident then they will put it in writing as part of the sale. If jot, then they are just after a sale. I would expect the manufacturer to say no if you need to make a claim.



They will be confident that it’s upto the task, but not enough to warrant it.


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## Ming the Merciless (10 May 2018)

Ianboydsnr said:


> They will be confident that it’s upto the task, but not enough to warrant it.



The manufacturer are not confident however and I would be loath to take the word of a salesman who is basing their assessment on what exactly?


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## stuarttunstall (10 May 2018)

I will ask the question when I go in and raise my concerns before leaving...


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## Elysian_Roads (10 May 2018)

Great news on the weight loss. As for "at 53 tooooooo old for anything cross country lol ..", never say never! I'm the same age, into cycling the most seriously I have ever been over the last year, and enjoy a mix of road and trail. It can get addictive.....

Looking forward to hearing some of your cycling stories. Cheers.


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## Ianboydsnr (10 May 2018)

YukonBoy said:


> The manufacturer are not confident however and I would be loath to take the word of a salesman who is basing their assessment on what exactly?



The manufacturer probably are confident and the limit will have a large safety margin built in, but the limit is there to limit warranty claims, so they won’t warrant it,

He has the choice take the risk himself, don’t buy, or buy something used cheap until his weight is below the limit and take the risk that the used cheap bike survives.


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## Ming the Merciless (10 May 2018)

Ianboydsnr said:


> The manufacturer probably are confident and the limit will have a large safety margin built in, but the limit is there to limit warranty claims, so they won’t warrant it,
> 
> He has the choice take the risk himself, don’t buy, or buy something used cheap until his weight is below the limit and take the risk that the used cheap bike survives.



If they were confident they would warrant it as it would not lead to an increase in claims.


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## stuarttunstall (10 May 2018)

I think the first thing I need to do is actually confirm my exact weight which I will do at the gym over the next few days... I may be surprised as I have lost some.. I suspect that although I will be close too, or maybe a little over the 120KG rated for this bike I need to check first.. If I am upto say 5KG over, say 125KG I can then speak to Evans and see what they say.. It was my choice to go for this bike and no pressure was put on me... I know some of the Specialized go up to 136KG so that may be an option if needed...

I have just emailed Scott to see what they have to say, I am confident if I am above 120KG iat worst/max I will be between 120-127 KG may even surprise myself when I get weighed but if so still hopefully in that "safe margin" for a short while anyway

Thanks for all the advice, I will keep you informed what Scott say


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## stuarttunstall (11 May 2018)

Just looking at what other bikes, if needed go higher.... this https://www.specialized.com/gb/en/crosstrail-elite-alloy/p/134283?color=239902-134283 looks to be rated at 136KG which would be better, now a question... I presume the weight limit is to do with the wheels? if so this has 14g spokes and the Scott Subcross 10 has 15g spokes... Now I know nothing about bikes, but does this mean the Scott has stronger, albeit very slightly spokes/wheels? but is rated less....

I have no idea how they calculate the limit and I am waiting for both Scott and Evans to reply to messages.... so I will keep you informed 

Oh and getting myself on the scales today I hope to get a better idea


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## Slick (11 May 2018)

stuarttunstall said:


> Just looking at what other bikes, if needed go higher.... this https://www.specialized.com/gb/en/crosstrail-elite-alloy/p/134283?color=239902-134283 looks to be rated at 136KG which would be better, now a question... I presume the weight limit is to do with the wheels? if so this has 14g spokes and the Scott Subcross 10 has 15g spokes... Now I know nothing about bikes, but does this mean the Scott has stronger, albeit very slightly spokes/wheels? but is rated less....
> 
> I have no idea how they calculate the limit and I am waiting for both Scott and Evans to reply to messages.... so I will keep you informed
> 
> Oh and getting myself on the scales today I hope to get a better idea


The heavier spooked wheel would not necessarily be stronger but it could be an indicator. I always count the spokes but it's not always just as simple as that either.


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## Ianboydsnr (11 May 2018)

stuarttunstall said:


> Just looking at what other bikes, if needed go higher.... this https://www.specialized.com/gb/en/crosstrail-elite-alloy/p/134283?color=239902-134283 looks to be rated at 136KG which would be better, now a question... I presume the weight limit is to do with the wheels? if so this has 14g spokes and the Scott Subcross 10 has 15g spokes... Now I know nothing about bikes, but does this mean the Scott has stronger, albeit very slightly spokes/wheels? but is rated less....
> 
> I have no idea how they calculate the limit and I am waiting for both Scott and Evans to reply to messages.... so I will keep you informed
> 
> Oh and getting myself on the scales today I hope to get a better idea



I thought that like sheet metal, the smaller the number of gauge, the thicker the spoke,
I am possibly wrong though.


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## DCBassman (11 May 2018)

Ianboydsnr said:


> I thought that like sheet metal, the smaller the number of gauge, the thicker the spoke,
> I am possibly wrong though.


If that's how they're measuring them, correct.


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## si_c (11 May 2018)

stuarttunstall said:


> Just looking at what other bikes, if needed go higher.... this https://www.specialized.com/gb/en/crosstrail-elite-alloy/p/134283?color=239902-134283 looks to be rated at 136KG which would be better, now a question... I presume the weight limit is to do with the wheels? if so this has 14g spokes and the Scott Subcross 10 has 15g spokes... Now I know nothing about bikes, but does this mean the Scott has stronger, albeit very slightly spokes/wheels? but is rated less....
> 
> I have no idea how they calculate the limit and I am waiting for both Scott and Evans to reply to messages.... so I will keep you informed
> 
> Oh and getting myself on the scales today I hope to get a better idea



Spoke gauge is counter intuitive as I understand it. Double butted (thinner) spokes fatigue less than straight gauge spokes as they are more flexible so spread the load across the whole spoke meaning they are less likely to fail at the elbow or nipple.

Go with the bike you want, which will help you lose the weight as you'll ride it more, and don't worry about the weight limit, unless you're an elephant it's probably not massively relevant. Both those bikes will be comfortably able to accommodate your weight without any difficulty.


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## stuarttunstall (11 May 2018)

Thanks for all the help and advice, I have good and bad news... lol 

Bad news is I an heavier still than I thought I was, just been to the doctors with my Mom and looking on there scales (asked if I could use them) which I know over read from past checks, I am actually 130KG so a little more than expected, but good news is I have lost half a stone in two months  

I have also just been into Evans and discussed this with him, and whilst he has said he cannot guarantee I will, will not have wheel issues they have assured me that when/if I do they will look after me and sort any issues out, and rightly or wrongly I believe they will based on the service so far... So the Sub Cross 10 it will be.... He did say he has seen bigger blokes on a bike with no issues.... but said they can look at options when/if they arise... i.e custom built wheels ... 

SO, fingers crossed all will be OK, I am only going on tarmac roads and avoiding tracks and pot holes etc... 

Funny enough he said the same as si_c said get the bike you want, the way you are loosing weight I will soon be at a safer range and will not regret buying something I did not really want  

Will let you know how I get on.... more tales to come...

Stu


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## MiK1138 (11 May 2018)

Are you riding anything at the moment? If not you see the weight drop off once you are on the bike and getting the miles in.


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## stuarttunstall (11 May 2018)

MiK1138 said:


> Are you riding anything at the moment? If not you see the weight drop off once you are on the bike and getting the miles in.



No, just the gym 4 times a week, bike, after a short 35 years not riding lol will be Friday, Saturday and Sunday exercise when I am off work... disappointed I am heavier than expected, but very happy at the half stone loss in two months, so like you say should go quicker once extra exercise starts next weekend hopefully 

I have just emailed Spa Cycles as suggested to see about a cost of more suitable wheels to suit if needed


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## stuarttunstall (11 May 2018)

As I suspected for legal reasons Scott will not commit to anything.... great reply from Spa Cycles, and a good price as well.... so I will see how it goes.... 

*Hello Stuart

The guys in your shop are probably right. Those rider weight limits are pretty conservative so I think you should be OK on your current wheels. If you do want to upgrade then a handbuilt set with Shimano Deore hubs, Exal DC19 rims and Sapim spokes would cost £195 (+£8 extra if you wanted black spokes).

Regards

Sam

Spa Cycles*


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## Ming the Merciless (11 May 2018)

Ask Evan's for a big discount as they are selling you a bike without a warranty that will cover you against breakages whilst over the 120kg limit. I would hate for you to see the frame break and then have no comeback.


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## stuarttunstall (11 May 2018)

From everyone I have spoken to, including Evans I dont think the frame will be the issue, it will, if anything be the wheels... I suppose that there has to be a large margin after all I only found out it was 120KG when I looked on the Scott website out of curiosity... what happens if a man off the street just walks in a shop and say's "I'll take that one" they have to allow for people, and cover themselves for people who just buy and jump on I expect...

I must say speaking to Evans and I will try to get it in writing when I go in next week, is they will honour any warranty, after all they would not have to tell anyone what I weigh IF I have issues... we will see what happens  At least I am getting lighter... lol


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## bigjim (11 May 2018)

I wouldn't worry. Bikes these days are designed with the large American Mamil in mind. Probably their biggest market. I doubt they would chance the litigation of a frame failure.


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## stuarttunstall (11 May 2018)

Funny enough that was what one said to me lol

I expect it is like a wire rope, they say it has a safe working load of "x" but has actually been tested much higher, just in case you do use it higher....

Looking around most Hybrid biles seem to be between 125 and 136 when I was searching so maybe Scott quote lower.... who know's, fingers and everything else crossed.... and hopefully I can get down quick 

In fact MOST cycle shops online do not even state a weight anywhere on the site, if anything it is only the manufactures sites that do....

As I have been bored tonight I have been doing a bit of research and almost every store does not mention any sort of weight limit on bikes either online or high street chains... In fact I also looked at a lot of cycle manufacturers do not even state them on there sites, well not as I can see  Scott, Specialize and Trek seem to list them...so some but not all... 

Oh Well I will see what happens  still looking forward to getting on the bike and some nice gentle exercise.....


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## gds58 (12 May 2018)

Stuart, are you related to Nigel Mansell? Uncanny resemblance!


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## stuarttunstall (12 May 2018)

gds58 said:


> Stuart, are you related to Nigel Mansell? Uncanny resemblance!



I am afraid not lol


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## Drago (12 May 2018)

I don't think wheels will give you trouble. As aforementioned, at my peak I was 117, but loaded up with lunch, porn mags and a weeks worth of uniform on the commute the payload was likely North of 130, suffered nary a problem. Ok, I read the road surface well and ride pretty light on the contact points, but there's nothing stopping any other rider doing the same.


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## stuarttunstall (12 May 2018)

Thanks for all the comments, I do appreciate them.... I was reading this last night https://theamazing39stonecyclist.wordpress.com/am-i-too-heavy-for-a-bike/ which must say something to reassure me lol

That is what a few have said, just avoid bad road surface, pot holes and off road and it should be fine, if I do I can always go down the Spa Cycles hand built wheel route which at £195.00 a a pair seems a bargain... BUT I am loosing weight so after a few weeks/months I should be down quite a bit, especially once I add cycling to my gym routine


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## Ticktockmy (13 May 2018)

stuarttunstall said:


> Thank you for all the advice, I am mainly going on roads and at 53 tooooooo old for anything cross country lol .... I think I am only just above the weight limit stated really, and decreasing... must weight myself really to see how well I am doing...



Ohhh, Dear, you might think 53 is too old for cross country, but you wait and see, cycling does strange and magicial things to you, and that little country lane becomes a quite smooth bridleway. Then you are trapped and soon you will be finding yourself being more adventurous


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## dantheman (17 May 2018)

stuarttunstall said:


> Thanks for all the comments, I do appreciate them.... I was reading this last night https://theamazing39stonecyclist.wordpress.com/am-i-too-heavy-for-a-bike/ which must say something to reassure me lol
> 
> That is what a few have said, just avoid bad road surface, pot holes and off road and it should be fine, if I do I can always go down the Spa Cycles hand built wheel route which at £195.00 a a pair seems a bargain... BUT I am loosing weight so after a few weeks/months I should be down quite a bit, especially once I add cycling to my gym routine


I have limited knowledge really, but I think if wheels are built well and you look out for the worst on the road then generally things are fine, just keep a (loving) eye on your bike and parts.. I weigh 110kg+ (approx) - I had problems with badly made Alex rim wheels, but I'm riding prolite bracciano wheels now (openly marketed towards lighter cyclists) and have had no problems.... I do slow for bumps and avoid potholes wherever possible but have also hit a few bad potholes at 25mph+.


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## spiderman2 (17 May 2018)

Ticktockmy said:


> Ohhh, Dear, you might think 53 is too old for cross country, but you wait and see, cycling does strange and magicial things to you, and that little country lane becomes a quite smooth bridleway. Then you are trapped and soon you will be finding yourself being more adventurous




very true I started cycling again at 55 and now 62 still adding bikes


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## User66445 (19 May 2018)

A word of caution. The limit Scott gives is for the all up weight: that's you, clothes, bags, any accessories, water bottles etc.

I was in the same position as you when I bought my new carbon frame bike, whose limit I found on reading the manual was around 110kg. Rather than risk a new and expensive toy, I opted to diet and ride my other bike until I was below 95kg. As a footnote I'm now within my recommended BMI, and only wish I'd lost the weight years ago. You've no idea how much easier cycling is with 25kg less fat to carry around !


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## froze (28 Jun 2018)

STOP! Evans is lying to you to sell you a bike! No Scott bike by the manufacture themselves is not rated for anyone over 243 pounds/110 kgs/17 stone. And to say the wheels will need more maintenance? try new rims in short order! You need to lose the weight first before looking for another bike, use the new bike as incentive to lose weight. But if you buy that bike and it starts to have problems the warranty won't cover anything due to weight limits being exceeded, plus you'll be spending money to replace stuff. 

If you are dead set on getting a new bike BEFORE you lose the weight than your choices are extremely limited, the only place that I could find that can make bikes handle 300 plus pound and do so without higher than normal failure rates is ZIZE Bikes, see: https://zizebikes.com/ I would either call or email them with your weight and height and let them tell you what they recommend.


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## stuarttunstall (29 Jun 2018)

froze said:


> STOP! Evans is lying to you to sell you a bike! No Scott bike by the manufacture themselves is not rated for anyone over 243 pounds/110 kgs/17 stone. And to say the wheels will need more maintenance? try new rims in short order! You need to lose the weight first before looking for another bike, use the new bike as incentive to lose weight. But if you buy that bike and it starts to have problems the warranty won't cover anything due to weight limits being exceeded, plus you'll be spending money to replace stuff.
> 
> If you are dead set on getting a new bike BEFORE you lose the weight than your choices are extremely limited, the only place that I could find that can make bikes handle 300 plus pound and do so without higher than normal failure rates is ZIZE Bikes, see: https://zizebikes.com/ I would either call or email them with your weight and height and let them tell you what they recommend.



Evans were not the only people to say I should be OK, I was advised by quite a few... including other stores. one or two not even Scott dealers.


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## DCBassman (29 Jun 2018)

froze said:


> STOP! Evans is lying to you to sell you a bike! No Scott bike by the manufacture themselves is not rated for anyone over 243 pounds/110 kgs/17 stone. And to say the wheels will need more maintenance? try new rims in short order! You need to lose the weight first before looking for another bike, use the new bike as incentive to lose weight. But if you buy that bike and it starts to have problems the warranty won't cover anything due to weight limits being exceeded, plus you'll be spending money to replace stuff.
> 
> If you are dead set on getting a new bike BEFORE you lose the weight than your choices are extremely limited, the only place that I could find that can make bikes handle 300 plus pound and do so without higher than normal failure rates is ZIZE Bikes, see: https://zizebikes.com/ I would either call or email them with your weight and height and let them tell you what they recommend.



Way off the beam. There's not a problem here. There's ALWAYS a margin over, if only for litigation's sake. It's entirely likely, from a stress engineering point of view, that the frame (although probably not the wheels) could cope with double that weight.


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## SkipdiverJohn (29 Jun 2018)

DCBassman said:


> Way off the beam. There's not a problem here. There's ALWAYS a margin over, if only for litigation's sake. It's entirely likely, from a stress engineering point of view, that the frame (although probably not the wheels) could cope with double that weight.



Road bike manufacturers have a very good reason for having low weight limits - and it's got little to do with engineering or safety, and they aren't going to admit it either. They simply prefer it that large fat people are not seen riding their products for image reasons, just the same as the high end women's fashion industry produces clothing in sizes that most women are NOT going to be able to comfortably fit into.
The road cycle industry and fashion have a lot in common; they want to portray an image where their products are bought and used by fit athletic looking people. One industry can achieve this through sizing, the other by discouraging large heavy people from buying their products by setting a weight limit that excludes them for "safety" reasons.


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## stuarttunstall (29 Jun 2018)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Road bike manufacturers have a very good reason for having low weight limits - and it's got little to do with engineering or safety, and they aren't going to admit it either. They simply prefer it that large fat people are not seen riding their products for image reasons, just the same as the high end women's fashion industry produces clothing in sizes that most women are NOT going to be able to comfortably fit into.
> The road cycle industry and fashion have a lot in common; they want to portray an image where their products are bought and used by fit athletic looking people. One industry can achieve this through sizing, the other by discouraging large heavy people from buying their products by setting a weight limit that excludes them for "safety" reasons.



There is a lot of truth in that ... 

I do expect there will be a limit of some description, like you say maybe the wheels rather than the frame... One of the people I spoke to was Spa cycles when I asked about custom wheels to take my weight as I was 6 weeks ago... The reply is below... 

I was 130KG just before the bike arrived, I have been working hard and I suspect I am now around the 125KG (must get weighed again) so getting closer.. 

So far I have had no issues and the roads I use are not the smoothest lol ... 

I don't think the store was "just after a sale" after all I was going to buy a bike and Specialized do one rated at 136KG so I could have changed for that and they had that in stock at a dearer price so I think they were being fair... 

In fact when I did some research very few manufactures or stores even state a weight limit.... 

This is Spa's reply

*Hello Stuart

The guys in your shop are probably right. Those rider weight limits are pretty conservative so I think you should be OK on your current wheels. If you do want to upgrade then a handbuilt set with Shimano Deore hubs, Exal DC19 rims and Sapim spokes would cost £195 (+£8 extra if you wanted black spokes).

Regards

Sam

Spa Cycles

Yes, they're built to potentially take a big rider, with full camping gear over rough terrain. So you'll be fine!

Best

Sam



*


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## SkipdiverJohn (29 Jun 2018)

stuarttunstall said:


> There is a lot of truth in that ...



Of course there is, but in the PC snowflake world we live in, they aren't going to come out and say that openly!.
Reason being they don't want a bunch of stroppy "size acceptance campaigners" (yes there really is such a thing) picketing outside their shops brandishing placards and urging customers to boycott their products.
It's easier just to "design out" the sort of customer you'd rather not have associated with your product.


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## stuarttunstall (29 Jun 2018)

I can see that in a lot of industries...price and size to the market you prefer and try to get rid or prevent good customer....


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