# Older Bikes - Originality, does it matter ?



## pubrunner (6 Nov 2009)

I recently acquired an old (50s I guess) Viking Mileater frame with 531 butted tubing.

Should I seek to build it up with original fittings or should I fit modern dual-pivot brakes, 700c wheels, modern cranks etc etc ? 

Is 'originality' important ?

To give an example, I sold my 1958 Rory O'Brien to a guy in the Veteran Cycle Club. He told me that it was very rare to come across a bike in such original condition. He pleaded poverty and stated that he 'really wanted the bike'. He chiselled me down in price and in a fit of generosity, I sold it to him for a massive £80 (Original asking price was only about £100). He told me that he intended to use it for 'club runs' and stated that his friends would be envious of his new steed in such original condition.

The following week, I was irritated to see the frame and parts for sale on Ebay. Obviously, he was quite entitled to do so, but I was annoyed that despite him exalting the virtues of 'originality', the profit motive was higher in his list of priorities. The 'original' fittings were worth more broken up and he ended up selling frame and bits for £170. 

So he pulled an entirely original bike apart for the sake of £90 - he is a high-profile member of a cycling club where 'originality' is very important. 

I notice that he has sold nearly £1,500 worth of parts/frames/bikes on Ebay in just the last month - all tax free I'd imagine. He is a prolific dealer on Ebay and sells dozens of old parts each month. Of course, he will extoll the virtues of originality - especially if he can sell the parts . 

The 'need' for 'originality' appears to be the main force in keeping the market for old parts so buoyant. These old parts can be very expensive to buy; some members of various vintage cycle clubs seem to be making a tidy sum doing just that.

I wonder if the new owner of the Rory O'Brien frame will seek to fit the parts 'required' to keep it 'original' - possibly leading to another old bike being pulled apart to provide the fittings.


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## PpPete (6 Nov 2009)

I am one who dis-assembles older bikes and sells on the components.

My motivation is not profit though. ( It would be nice to make a profit, but it isn't ever going to happen ) 

I personally like 531 frames, and I've found that they can be the basis of a really cracking bike when fitted with modern componentry. 

I'm not saying they are not nice bikes with the original components, just that, *for me*, it is possible to do better.

So, some of the components come off and the better ones go into into my "parts bin", the things for which I cannot conceive of any future use go on Ebay....to fund the purchase of newer, better quality components. 

My "parts bin" has been growing lately, and I have sold off a few items to forum members, in response to posts in the "wanted" section. 

Do I feel guilty about destroying an "original" .... well yes slightly, but in many cases it's been more a case of turning a neglected, mis-treated, bodged, rusty heap of sh*t, into a bike that I, or a family member, can ride and appreciate.

Do I think pubrunner should build his Viking back up as original as possible?
I can't honestly say.. each to his own... but if I did express an opinion I woudl have to "declare an interest" because I've just sold him a chainset


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## pubrunner (6 Nov 2009)

Hi Pete,

I'd like some advice if possible; the rear dropouts on the Viking are only 115mm apart, by how much can they safely be widened by cold-setting ?

FWIW, I share your views - I think that 531 frames/bikes are great when fitted with modern components.


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## pubrunner (6 Nov 2009)

porkypete said:


> I am one who dis-assembles older bikes and sells on the components.



Yes, but you don't 'see the need' for originality; the guy that bought and sold my Rory O'Brien specifically stated to me that "old bikes should be kept original". I told him that I had considered fitting some modern components and he told me that would 'spoil' the bike.


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## pubrunner (6 Nov 2009)

porkypete said:


> My "parts bin" has been growing lately, and I have sold off a few items to forum members, in response to posts in the "wanted" section.



Let me know if you have any 700c wheels available.


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## Norm (6 Nov 2009)

porkypete said:


> Do I think pubrunner should build his Viking back up as original as possible?


Slightly off-topic, I have an old Viking which I bought new just before my O levels in 1978, which I've just got back on the road again.

I went through it in '94, fitted new chain rings and back wheel, this time round, it's just needed a new BB and tyres. I should put some bar tape on it as well, but I rather like the bare metal on the drops. 

I also like the "dual-lever brakes" as they were called back then, and I don't agree with the current fashion for calling them "suicide levers".

It's pretty much as it was back in the day, though, although I've also added 30 years worth of rust to the frame. I can't decide whether to tart up the visuals or leave it with the patina of age which it has earned in my tender mis-care.

Back on topic, whether to keep original or not depends on what you want to use it for. If it's to place on the mantel-piece and admire, then keep it original. If you want to use it, then there's no point in making life hard for yourself so get modern stuff. IMO.


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## PpPete (6 Nov 2009)

pubrunner said:


> Yes, but you don't 'see the need' for originality; the guy that bought and sold my Rory O'Brien specifically stated to me that "old bikes should be kept original". I told him that I had considered fitting some modern components and he told me that would 'spoil' the bike.




Yes - his actions were dishonest and utterly reprehensible in my opinion.

Can you "name & shame"? Not his real name of course, just his ebay name. I would like to block him from bidding on any of my items.


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## dan_bo (6 Nov 2009)

I also run a old viking ('63 ss-T, lovely)

It should have clements tubs, a chater-lea crankset, GB handlebars, period rim tape etc etc etc......

However, It runs just fine with velocity deep V rims, a cinelli stem, tiny saddle and '09 Dura-Ace track cranks.

Do what you see fit. It's your bike.


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## PpPete (6 Nov 2009)

pubrunner said:


> Let me know if you have any 700c wheels available.



No old 700c available at the moment.... but I do have a pair of alloy 27" x 1-1/4" - sort of a Westrick pattern rim.

If you are interested I can take some pics.


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## threebikesmcginty (6 Nov 2009)

I built up an old 1978 531c frame with modern components and it's a lovely ride, well worth doing.

Your club member who sold the bike on sounds like a piece of work - I'd ask him why he did that.


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## dan_bo (6 Nov 2009)

My apologies I didn't read the OP. Obviously. 

the guy's a blag artist. I'd (quietly) let him know I was on to him.


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## Rhythm Thief (6 Nov 2009)

I have a feeling it weas someone my girlfriend's dad knows who bought your Rory O'Brien. I don't think he'd have broken it for bits though as he has a fantastic collection of old bikes, mostly complete and original. 
Personally, while I didn't hesitate to kit out my old Dawes Galaxy with modern components, I wouldn't want to actually break an original old bike for the bits. The same dilemma exists with old electric guitars: one of mine is worth far more in bits than complete, but I wouldn't sell it like that.


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## pubrunner (6 Nov 2009)

threebikesmcginty said:


> Your club member who sold the bike on sounds like a piece of work - I'd ask him why he did that.



He said that "it wasn't quite what he expected".

He is a long-time and highly regarded member of the V-CC, whilst I've only joined in the last 18 months. He is such a fanatic about 'originality' that he even wears period clothing for club rides; I don't so much mind that he made a profit on the bike, it is the hypocrisy that narks me. 

He is very much involved and influential in the activities of his local section (sadly, the nearest one to me) and is considered to be something of a 'guru' on old bikes. I know very little about old bikes/bike components and automatically, that gives me no 'standing' within the V-CC.

I have mentioned it to some V-CC members, but basically, they weren't interested. As I've already mentioned, (unlike PorkyPete), some of them do make very good money from Ebay.


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## Hilldodger (6 Nov 2009)

That's why I don't want to be a member of the VCC any more because too many people use it to further their business. If it wasn't for the Boneshaker magazine I wouldn't bother.


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## pubrunner (6 Nov 2009)

Rhythm Thief said:


> I have a feeling it weas someone my girlfriend's dad knows who bought your Rory O'Brien. I don't think he'd have broken it for bits though as he has a fantastic collection of old bikes, mostly complete and original.



I can assure you that it *was* someone that your girlfriend's Dad knows and the bike *was* 'broken for bits'. Your girlfriend's Dad is fully aware of what happened.

I have emailed your girlfriend's dad quite a few times and have found him to be incredibly helpful, friendly and knowledgeable. He has 'gone out of his way' to provide advice and assistance - he is a person for whom I have the *utmost respect -* a thoroughly decent man. He was, I think, embarrassed and 'put-out' at what occurred; he felt that he was 'put in a difficult position', because the buyer of my bike is a 'long-standing friend'.

*The matter is long since closed*. I've mentally 'forgiven' the buyer of the bike - his attitude towards dealing in old bikes and originality is just different from my own. No point in harbouring grudges; life goes on and all that. 

I've only used that real-life experience to query whether 'originality' is so important.


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## PpPete (6 Nov 2009)

pubrunner said:


> *The matter is long since closed*. I've mentally 'forgiven' the buyer of the bike - his attitude towards dealing in old bikes and originality is just different from my own. No point in harbouring grudges; life goes on and all that.
> 
> .



I admire you for taking that attitude. 
Much as I'd try not to let it, an experience like that would stay with me for a very long time indeed.


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## Rhythm Thief (6 Nov 2009)

pubrunner said:


> I can assure you that it *was* someone that your girlfriend's Dad knows and the bike *was* 'broken for bits'. Your girlfriend's Dad is fully aware of what happened.
> 
> I have emailed your girlfriend's dad quite a few times and have found him to be incredibly helpful, friendly and knowledgeable. He has 'gone out of his way' to provide advice and assistance - he is a person for whom I have the *utmost respect -* a thoroughly decent man. He was, I think, embarrassed and 'put-out' at what occurred; he felt that he was 'put in a difficult position', because the buyer of my bike is a 'long-standing friend'.
> 
> ...



Sorry Pubrunner, I wasn't trying to imply there was any bad feeling on his part, or on yours. In fact, I do seem to recall him saying something about this a while back and I got the impression he wasn't happy then. He is a nice bloke and he knows his onions (especially regarding Major Nicholls and Paris Galibier bikes). I'll see if I can get some pics of his collection one of these days.


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## pubrunner (6 Nov 2009)

Rhythm Thief said:


> *He is a nice bloke* and *he knows his onions (especially regarding Major Nicholls and Paris Galibier bikes)*. I'll see if I can get some pics of his collection one of these days.



*+1*


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## pubrunner (6 Nov 2009)

porkypete said:


> I admire you for taking that attitude.
> Much as I'd try not to let it, an experience like that would stay with me for a very long time indeed.



Just part of the learning curve.

Wish I'd kept the bike though, it would be nicely modified by now !!!


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## pubrunner (6 Nov 2009)

dan_bo said:


> I also run a old viking ('63 ss-T, lovely)
> 
> It should have clements tubs, a chater-lea crankset, GB handlebars, period rim tape etc etc etc......
> 
> ...



Hi dan bo,

Which model of Viking do you have ?

Did you have spread the rear dropouts to fit modern running gear ?


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## threebikesmcginty (6 Nov 2009)

porkypete said:


> I admire you for taking that attitude.
> Much as I'd try not to let it, an experience like that would stay with me for a very long time indeed.



Yes, commendable. It would grate with me too.


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## pubrunner (6 Nov 2009)

Hilldodger said:


> That's why I don't want to be a member of the VCC any more because *too many people use it to further their business*. If it wasn't for the Boneshaker magazine I wouldn't bother.



The guy who bought my Rory O'Brien is going to be the Chairman of his local section during 2010 for the V-CC. He will be the first point of contact for many people - some of whom may ask advice and help about the best place to *value* or *sell* their bikes. I'm sure that he'll be only too pleased to 'help' them.

I wonder how many bikes have been stripped to provide the parts that he has sold ? He doesn't sell in the V-CC magazine; just on Ebay - so far as I know. What was astonishing, was the speed of his actions. He picked up the bike from me on a Friday evening and the next Wednesday, I spotted the frame on Ebay.

I've genuinely 'got over' the experience, but I think that it is useful to relate my experience as a cautionary tale.


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## urbanfatboy (6 Nov 2009)

Yeah, reckon he was dishonest, especially after knocking you down on price. If he really was dissatisfied with it, he coulda contacted you, see if you wanted it back. The galling thing is it sounds like you did him a favour because of his ethos, he used that to cut you. Probably planned to do it all along.


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## pubrunner (6 Nov 2009)

urbanfatboy said:


> Yeah, reckon he was dishonest, especially after knocking you down on price. If he really was dissatisfied with it, he coulda contacted you, see if you wanted it back. The galling thing is it sounds like you did him a favour because of his ethos, he used that to cut you. *Probably planned to do it all along*.



I did him a favour, *entirely* because he was/is a fellow member of the V-CC. I didn't realise that he was entirely motivated (in this instance) by profit. Yes, I'm certain that he planned to do it all along.

He told me that he intended to use the bike for Club Runs. I told him that I planned to do some and that I hoped I'd see him riding the Rory O'Brien on them - gotta laugh at that. Made me feel a 'right wally' at having said that, when I saw the bike on Ebay just a couple of days later. I laugh about it now though !


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## pubrunner (6 Nov 2009)

Hey urbanfatboy,

That's a great place where you live !

We stayed over for a night in the Kings Head Hotel. Took the kids to Mother Shipton's Cave in Knaresborough, The Forbidden Corner and Lightwater Valley. The kids loved the sweet shop opposite The King's Head - spent a fortune in there. All in all, we had a great time.

10 or 12 years ago, I stayed at The Buck at Thornton Watlass; we called in for a pint and whilst the beer was fine, I thought it seemed more 'run-down' than previously.

My & the Missus (a strong cyclist) plan to go up to Masham next year - perhaps you'd be up for a spin out somewhere ?


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## urbanfatboy (6 Nov 2009)

I don't live in Masham. I can't even remember why i put that in. Sorry, it was long ago.


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## peanut (6 Nov 2009)

its a very difficult dilema isn't it . Do you keep the bike original or upgrade the frame with modern components which will doubless make the bike safer to ride and probably more enjoyable to ride if the truth were known.

I think if you turned up for a Sunday club run 10 years ago with a 1970's classic ,sporting original componants you'd be in for a fair 'bit of stick '

In the past 2-3 years or so with the huge increase in interest in fixed the old classic frames have made a huge come back and I'd go as far to say its more likely now that a club cyclist is going to have one than not. 

My own feelings are I suppose mixed.. If I had a rare frame from the 50's or 60's I would do my utmost to conserve it . I doubt that I would build and ride it and would probably hang the frame on the wall in my sitting room like I would a piece of fine art

If it was an interesting but reasonably common frame ie 70's-80's I might be tempted to build with modern components provided I could do so without modifying or damaging the frame. 

I have a 1980's 653 Ribble which is as common as muck but a nice frame all the same. I'm not in the least bit precious about it and will hang anything on it in order to enjoy riding it. It's probably going to be built as my TT bike for next season .I love it to bits and would never part with it . It represents the peak period of my passion and fitness in cycling and holds many good memories .

My Dad who is now 88 has come to stay with us and his stories of his early cycling days and working opposite Hobbs of barbican and saving up for his first bike has rekindled my interest and I shall be looking out for a nice early frameset to restore soon . I shall be building that with completely original equipment and half the enjoyment will be the endless search for just the right part.

Wish that I'd bought one of those lovely frames that Hilary recently sold on ebay from his enormous collection

My Ribble Dibble awaiting a new life


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## Arch (6 Nov 2009)

I think it comes down to what you want the bike for - to ride, or to look at? If the parts are original and they work, although maybe they aren't cosmetically perfect, then leave them on and use the bike like that. If they are original but knackered (or don't work for you, maybe the gearing is too high or something), and you want to use the bike, replace them. If it's all rare, and you only want to use it everyso often, that's fine, but if the parts aren't functional, you're looking at a tubular piece of ornament - which is fine if you want that, but a bike deserves the chance to get out, I think. Just as vintage cars should be driven, or vintage aircraft flown, even it it means making the odd compromise. Unless it's one of the last few of it's kind, keep it out of a museum.

I'm building up my Galaxy (not sure of date, maybe 80's) on the basis of what I can afford balanced against what suits me - but it lost any pretence of originality long ago when we resprayed it.


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## peanut (6 Nov 2009)

funny how some of the folk that were not in favour of a classic bike section and argued long and hard against it are now posting here  funny that


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## Rhythm Thief (6 Nov 2009)

peanut said:


> funny how some of the folk that were not in favour of a classic bike section and argued long and hard against it are now posting here  funny that



Seems to be a good thread for special interests to me.


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## peanut (6 Nov 2009)

Rhythm Thief said:


> Seems to be a good thread for special interests to me.



ahem...cough .... are we still talking about bikes ?


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## Rhythm Thief (6 Nov 2009)




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## pubrunner (6 Nov 2009)

Arch said:


> but a bike deserves the chance to get out, I think.



+1

The most important point of all imo.


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## porteous (8 Nov 2009)

*Originality vs updating*

Tricky really. I think it depends on how complete a bike is and how rare it is. A good old complete bike deserves to be kept intact. A damaged or incomplete one might help another be rescued. Any old good old frame deserves to be rebuilt with modern components or original components. I don't think any old and complete bike deserves stripping just to make a few extra bob on e-bay. In general conservation is better than destruction any day of the week. If you upgrade a rare old bike in order to make it more rideable then perhaps keeping the original components is a good idea?

I have been wanting to recreate a childhood bike for some years and now have the frame (only). After thinking about it for a while I have decided to keep the original cylo derailleur 4speed but upgrade to a contempory(ish) double chainwheel and modern crankset combined with a cyclo suicide changer which will, I hope, be the way the bike would look now if I hade kept it for the last 45 years. (I hope this makes sense!).

On the other hand I have spent a year sourcing bits to rebuild a 1949 Rudge Clubman to original spec. Not a rare bike, but a nice ride.

There you have it, for what its worth!


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## TheCyclingRooster (14 Dec 2009)

My heartfelt feelings go out to you pubrunner.It happened to me with an unrelated matter to cycles.There is however one likely course of action even at this late stage!.Create a little effigy and mini bicycle,mount the effigy and repeat the following several times over the following 24hrs:- I hope your balls get saddle sore,then turn square and fester in the corners.This act of deception is a bit like the moaning hard up,hard done to pensioner brigade that could buy & sell most of us time & time again.Happy & Safe Riding to you All.


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## chris667 (15 Dec 2009)

I had a lovely old frame, early 70s, with a Cinelli internally brazed fork, a Pista chainset, and draped in early Record.

Gorgeous, but I took it to bits because I was scared of using the frame (really, it was coke can thin and I'm BIG), and I swapped the frame with a mate.

The bits I'm keeping onto not because they're worth a lot of money (they are, if I used Ebay), but because I like them, and will enjoy taking them out of their box and polishing them sometimes until I find another old frame for them to hang on. My mate has a really nice, unusual fixed gear that he uses all the time and swapped them for a mountain bike frame I like and will use. Splitting bikes need not be the end of the world.

Really, I think the money some people will pay for old bike stuff spoils it. We should not get so hung up on originality, so long as the bikes are still used sometimes that's enough.


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## Happiness Stan (15 Dec 2009)

Its all down to you. There isn't a right or wrong answer. I alwys admired Sheldon Brown for cobbling together a variety of components slapping them on to an ultra rare frame in order to be able to RIDE a bike. That is what it is all about after all.


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## armand71 (11 Jan 2010)

Happiness Stan said:


> Its all down to you. There isn't a right or wrong answer. I alwys admired Sheldon Brown for cobbling together a variety of components slapping them on to an ultra rare frame in order to be able to RIDE a bike. That is what it is all about after all.



I completely agree. I usually swap out the wearing parts for contemporary parts if they are rare and ride it with no worries.


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## atb (12 Jan 2010)

If it's just a frame and you are wanting to built up to ride, put the parts on for your needs and budget.


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## Freddie (20 Jan 2010)

So the motto is, just because x is a cyclist doesn't mean he isn't slimy.


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## Wocce Racer (21 Jan 2010)

pubrunner said:


> I recently acquired an old (50s I guess) Viking Mileater frame with 531 butted tubing.
> 
> Should I seek to build it up with original fittings or should I fit modern dual-pivot brakes, 700c wheels, modern cranks etc etc ?



If you can find them, GB made a dual pivot break in the early 60's called the syncros. It does have quite a deep reach though. Because this and that they were (I believe) the first dual pivot in full production, they do not have the same effect as the dual pivots of today.


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