# Sportives - are they out of control?



## oldroadman (7 Oct 2013)

Reading reports about disruption of sportives by locals, actual attempted sabotage, and constant complaints from resident, are sportives simply too big and out of control?
Are there simply too many in some areas (New Forest, Surrey around Box Hill, for instance)?
Are some very stupid riders treating the events as a "5th category road race" (very dangerous and inconsiderate to all)?
Are these events harming the image of cycling?
And if all this is not fixed, is legislation likely to be the outcome, so that a sportive will need a proper risk assessment, permit, and officials with powers to penalise up to DQ, just like a road race?

I ask because it is looking likely that if enough influential people (please don't shout NIMBY!) get brassed off, legislation which we won't like might get imposed.

Discuss SENSIBLY....(posted in hope).


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## Archie_tect (7 Oct 2013)

The Cyclone was disrupted 2 years ago by tack throwing morons passing Newbiggin...


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## mcshroom (7 Oct 2013)

It's amazing how irate people can get if they get to a road junction to find it closed or get to a road and find they have to follow cyclists. It's as if you are personally insulting them by using a road and not cowering out of their way.

The mud on road thing strikes chord with me as a local farmer leaves a cycle path I would like to use like that for months on end, on a 90 degree bend too.


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## the_mikey (7 Oct 2013)

Sportives are no worse than the constant trail of cars that would take up the road if they weren't temporarily interleaved with people on bikes.


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## michaelcycle (7 Oct 2013)

The majority tend to get a bit irate when a minority group want to share their toys...


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## 400bhp (7 Oct 2013)

As I said yesterday.

Balls to em. (locals and car drivers).

So long as the cyclists aren't being anti social it is what it is - a bunch of people doing like minded leisure activities on a weekend.


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## Banjo (8 Oct 2013)

As a commited cyclist who commutes does club , audax and CC rides I can still see the problems of mass participation events.

Locals are seriously inconvenienced by events, tons of crap such as gel wrappers old innertubes etc are left behind.

IMHO events should be limited to 1000 riders set off at intervals.


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## PK99 (8 Oct 2013)

oldroadman said:


> Reading reports about disruption of sportives by locals, actual attempted sabotage, and constant complaints from resident, are sportives simply too big and out of control?
> *Are there simply too many in some areas *(New Forest, *Surrey around Box Hill*, for instance)?
> *Are some very stupid riders treating the events as a "5th category road race" (very dangerous and inconsiderate to all)?*
> Are these events harming the image of cycling?
> ...



I rode a number of Sportives 3 or 4 years ago with a various members of my club. I stopped when a smidsy and 9 months off the bike made a rather large dent in my fitness. Fitness is now back to what it was and i spoke to the keenest of the sportive riders, noting that she did not do so many these days but was riding as much as ever. Her view "A few years ago Sportives were 'a good day out on the bike', now they have been taken over by wannabe racers who can't hack it in the real thing. They are aggressive and dangerous"

Plus in the past 3 weekends I've ridden two 70 mile Charity rides in Surrey. On each ride we criss-crossed a number of other sportives/organised rides covering the same terrain. I can certainly see how overuse of some roads could be very frustrating for locals.


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## slowmotion (8 Oct 2013)

Lots of cyclists, blinged up on narrow roads on a regular basis, piss people off. It isn't that hard to work out, is it? It might seem unreasonable, but if you can't see why it happens, you lack an understanding of human nature.


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## fossyant (8 Oct 2013)

I suppose its how often these events run in a particular area and the numbers involved. That said, places like the New Forrest are full of tourist traffic, so what's a few bikes ?

Admittedly, there are riders who treat these events like races, and will aggressively ride and not allow others to join their group on the road. These aren't my type of event.

Part of the reason I joined my club was to partake in friendly events and club runs rather than the huge Sportives.


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## Globalti (8 Oct 2013)

We gave up family Sky rides thanks to the terrifying behaviour of a small number of cyclists, though they were usually teenagers on BSOs rather than wannabe racer MAMILs. My elderly mother had a sportiff pass through her Wiltshire village last weekend and she was shocked at the behaviour of a small number of the cyclists; she even telephoned me to complain about them!


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## Born2die (8 Oct 2013)

I Nearly got wiped out Sunday by a landy on a single track lane local race going one way me the other not enough gap to overtake safely but guess what numpty did yup I wound up going off-road at speed


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## DiddlyDodds (8 Oct 2013)

id shoot the lot of them ,,, cyclist and locals .... I blame it on the government and the rise in self tanning booths in rural areas.
If only we could all live together in harmony, share our coke (the drinking kind) and wrap a blanket of happiness around the shoulders of the non believers and golfers .

I blame it on Henry Ford , he said any colour as long as its black , well that's the mood we are all in on the queens highway a very black one, with flashes of brightness.

Bring back penny chews , that's the answer I tells ya.


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## Boris Bajic (8 Oct 2013)

My feeling (and my experience) suggests that many Sportive riders are 'high net worth' individuals who are happy to pay and happy to live with the dichotemy of a race which is pretending not to be a race.

I do not do them, but many cyclists I know are keen Sportive riders. They are generally more_ 'golf cl_ub' than_ 'cycling club'_ - indeed almost nobody at my son's relatively traditional cycling club does them. 

Activities pursued by this slice of socoety tend not to attract broader public hostility. There will be fringe contras who rail and moan and shout about them, but the press and the broadcast media will not get behind any sort of campaign for legislation and the moaners themselves will not have the gumption. 

Most of us on these pages are motorists and cyclists and can see both sides of the coin. The inconvenience is relatively small and seasonal and the activity that would be subject to any legislation is currently surfing a massive wave of public adoration.

I think there will be dark mummerings, but no action will be taken.


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## Dan B (8 Oct 2013)

Boris Bajic said:


> I think there will be dark mummerings


Othello?


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## oldroadman (8 Oct 2013)

Speaking to some friends down south, the local BC people were called in by police and the upshot wass that while the police could do nothing about the sportives/charity rides/etc using the New Forest almost EVERY WEEK from April to September (and beyond) they could stop proper races. Which has happened. No races there after April and before October - so effectively almost nothing. So there is a direct effect on competition. The local moaners only see people on bikes with numbers on, to them it's a race, and having personally witnessed the minority lunatic fringe who treat it as such, I can see why they are moaning!
As I said already, I suspect that if we (as the sport and pastime) don't get our own house in order, someone will step in and the results will not be good for cycling.
I do agree (having visited during the week) that the Forest roads are busy and plenty of 4x4 and Volvo types are in evidence, sometimes going too fast for the conditions, but that's real life I'm afraid, and the culture change to shift that will take time and government will to do something. The Dutch managed it but it took many years, it didn't just happen.


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## User169 (8 Oct 2013)

oldroadman said:


> The Dutch managed it but it took many years, it didn't just happen.


 
There are similar issues re sportives in NL. The numbers of events taking place in the Limburg may well be restricted in the wake of increasing complaints from locals. I think sportives actually got cancelled in Belgium this year because the organisers couldn't get permission to run the event (at least that was what a colleague told me who couldn't ride an event he'd been riding for years).


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## Hacienda71 (8 Oct 2013)

I received the following email from a friend yesterday. It is tongue in cheek before all the sportive riders on the forum take offence although having ridden a couple of sportives it did make me smile.

* have been sent this and thought of your safety!*


*How to stay safe around Sportivists. A Guide*

We want cyclists to stay safe when cycling near other vehicles, especially larger ones, like sportive riders. The safety advice is simple, “Stay safe, stay away”.

The “Stay safe, stay away” advice applies to cyclists when cycling near to moving Sportive riders or approaching any stationary Sportivists on the road, at junctions, traffic lights, on climbs or at feed stations. It's important to stay out of the risk zone and get into a position where the sportive rider can see you over their Garmin.

Follow our tips below to find out how to protect yourself.Safety tips

Cycle sensibly and assertively to help yourself. Stay safe, especially at traffic lights, junctions, corners, straight roads, climbs, descents, and anywhere that might be a Strava segment. 

* Recognise that sportive riders may not be able to see you, and are often oblivious to your presence.

*Never cycle up the left side of a sportivist riding in the middle of the road.

*Look out for sportive riders wandering left or right for no reason in front of you.

*If a rider comes up behind you, move forward enough merely to ensure you are in the sportivist’s field of vision and in no way to try and drop them. 

*In front of a Sportive rider is often the safest place to be. When you need to overtake a large sportivist, do so on the right-hand side at speed, so that the rider can’t keep up with you.Be Aware

The risk zone area can be the full length and width of the road, with the sportivist unable to see anyone cycling beside them on the left, or the right.

*Both new and experienced cyclists have been hurt in collisions with sportivists. This often happens when a sportive rider veers left to stop on a climb, to look at the view, to take off his gilet, to put on his arm-warmers or turn into a feed zone, hitting innocent cyclists on the nearside.

*Don't assume any large gap between sportivists is safe. When veering across the road for no reason large riders often wobble over to the right before they swing sharply across to the left to stop.


**Don't risk your life by trying to pass sportive riders when they are stopped at junctions, they may simply be confused by the event direction arrows and could suddenly turn either left or right. Wait until they have moved on, and turn the other way.

“Stay safe, stay away” is dedicated to reducing sportivists danger to cyclists through the use of awareness and reliability trials.*


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## ColinJ (8 Oct 2013)

2697874 said:


> You are saying that motoring being out of control is real life but we, in the sense of cyclists, have to put our house in order? Why?


Two wrongs don't make a right, perhaps ...?


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## oldroadman (8 Oct 2013)

I simply stated what is the situation at present. It may change, I don't know. What I do know is that the lunatic fringe are damaging to the cause of sensible and safe shared use of the road by acting in a silly manner and as if they are in a race - which would be much more a controlled environment with lead cars, motos, commissaires, etc. A sportive is a "sporting ride" where you are testing yourself against a prescribed course, not race. Given the chance I would remove all timing chips and anything that could be related to a "result" where person A can say the "beat" person B. Look at the legal definition of a race or time trial, "a trial of speed", the danger is sportives are becoming exactly that for cycling idiots.
If you want to come from a position of strength on the roads, first be the sensible and legal users, assert your right to be there, but keep it sane and sensible. Militantcy where a 8kg bike and 70kg rider is against a 1000kg metal object does not sound a contest that can be won. A "charm offensive" on the other hand leaves the NIMBYs with nowhere to go. In the end we all have to co-exist in this imperfect world, and realism, thinking about how best the change things without getting into pointless fights, would seem to be the most sensible thing. What is not sensible is having 1,000 plus people of which perhaps 20-40 are acting stupidly, aggravating other legitimete road users, who then tag the other 96-+ as lunatics as well. What good does this do cycling?


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## alecstilleyedye (8 Oct 2013)

apologies if i missed it, but also there have also been concerns about the etiquette of group riding. experience of this comes from club riding where new members are introduced to the unwritten rules of the road (alluded to in the veluminati's rules) that are primarily about keeping the bunch safe (even pros in races point out pot holes etc.), but anyone who has never ridden in a group can front up at a sportive and make a nuisance of themselves and compromise the safety of themselves and others.

I know whose wheel to follow and whose wheel to avoid on the club run; no chance of that on a sportive...


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## totallyfixed (8 Oct 2013)

Purely from observation as we only ever rode one sportive, the London to Canterbury before the TdF and vowed never to do another because of the idiots who spoiled the ride by ignoring most of the rules of the road. I see three major problems with them, firstly they have got too big, secondly they are timed, which in effect makes them a race for many, and third there is little or no regulation / policing on the day.
After saying all that Sportives have probably got more bums on saddles than ever, it's just that a lot of those bums don't have much experience. If you could buy a car and without any instruction and no test imagine the daily carnage on the roads, and yet you can do this with a bike, ok I know it obviously can't do the damage a car can but nevertheless it is a vehicle on a public road and if ridden by a clueless individual can be potentially lethal, multiply that by several hundred and it is not surprising there are problems.
A Sportive this summer came through Rutland and passed through Oakham town center, we were out shopping on foot and saw many of the riders going through the lights at the crossroads on red, as we got nearer one bloke came through at red and I shouted at him, the street was full of people walking but it didn't stop him from looking back and yelling f***k off. Wish I had been on my bike.
A week or so later I had to take the car to the local garage and the owner, who knows I am a club cyclist told me that this same Sportive came through the village [Ashwell] and that there were road work traffic lights on a blind bend just outside the garage and in his words, none of the riders stopped when the lights showed red. This was embarrassing for me because I didn't really have an answer.
So long as no one sticks a pin in the Sportive bubble, they will continue to grow, because for promoters they make a lot of money.
I have no wish to stop mamil's taking up cycling or anyone else, indeed just the opposite, but if you are going to behave like a twunt it will tar us all with the same brush and this I do not accept.


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## 400bhp (8 Oct 2013)

totallyfixed said:


> . I see three major problems with them, firstly they have got too big, secondly they are timed, which in effect makes them a race for many, and third there is little or no regulation / policing on the day.
> .



The timing is bonkers and I'm really surprised the insurers (for which the organisers will need public liability) allow it-albeit they probably heavility caveat the insurance stipulations with things like x number of ambulances on standby/police authorisation. 

I can't see the timing lasting to be honest. It will take a couple of deaths before timing is banned I guess.


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## RichK (8 Oct 2013)

Globalti said:


> We gave up family Sky rides thanks to the terrifying behaviour of a small number of cyclists, ...


 
Not just you. My son asked to not go this year for the same reason.



Globalti said:


> ... though they were usually teenagers on BSOs rather than wannabe racer MAMILs. ...!


 
except in our case it was wannabe racers & not teenagers.


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## Hacienda71 (8 Oct 2013)

They should also ban Strava. Loonies everywhere trying to achieve silly times in non race situations.


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## mcshroom (8 Oct 2013)

Perhaps we could run rides that only published a list of finishers instead of times. Perhaps even have a maximum speed of, say 30km/h, and of course we'd need a minimum speed of something like 15km/h.

To prevent the problem of people taking down route signs we could supply them with a sheet of suggested directions, and a set of points (lets call them 'controls') they have to pass through. Perhaps these controls could be placed in cafes. This woud mean that instead of expensive timing chips, all a rider might need to carry would be a sort of 'brevet' card to stamp at these controls.


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## phil_hg_uk (8 Oct 2013)

2698086 said:


> Brooks saddles, Caradice bags, mudguards, sandals, and optional beards?



and that is just the women


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## mcshroom (8 Oct 2013)

All optional, on my last one of these events I had exactly none of those


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## slowmotion (8 Oct 2013)

2698086 said:


> Brooks saddles, Caradice bags, mudguards, sandals, and optional beards?


 
I like it! Trash the gel sachets too.........


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## Banjo (8 Oct 2013)

mcshroom said:


> Perhaps we could run rides that only published a list of finishers instead of times. Perhaps even have a maximum speed of, say 30km/h, and of course we'd need a minimum speed of something like 15km/h.
> 
> To prevent the problem of people taking down route signs we could supply them with a sheet of suggested directions, and a set of points (lets call them 'controls') they have to pass through. Perhaps these controls could be placed in cafes. This woud mean that instead of expensive timing chips, all a rider might need to carry would be a sort of 'brevet' card to stamp at these controls.


Thats ridiculous,it could never work.Next you will be suggesting that riders could eat the full english at cafes or even have a pint on the way round. Crazy idea.


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## ianrauk (8 Oct 2013)

Banjo said:


> Thats ridiculous,it could never work.Next you will be suggesting that riders could eat the full english at cafes or even have a pint on the way round. Crazy idea.



And I bet that included in the miserly riding fee, some of the start and finishing controls will have real food available, Jacket potatoes, Pasta, selection of rolls, biccies, tea and coffee etc rather then just Banana's and Gels.


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## ColinJ (8 Oct 2013)

2697904 said:


> One wrong, significantly more harmful than the other, so which do we address?


It isn't an either/or question.

Bad driving needs to be sorted out

Bad cycling needs to be sorted out
I was descending Holme Moss on the Brian Robinson Sportive once when I caught up 2 slower riders. I could tell that were inexperienced and feared what they might do as I overtook them so I had a good look ahead to check that the road was clear, and looked back up the hill to make sure all was clear behind me, called out, and then overtook them as far to the right as I could go. Just as I passed, the second rider veered out 2/3 of the way across the road to overtake the first, without checking what was behind him ... If I hadn't anticipated that he was going to do that, a great deal of harm would have been done to both of us


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## Globalti (8 Oct 2013)

Nearest I've come to dying on my bike was when I overtook a group of kids on BSOs and one of them suddenly veered into my path without looking over his shoulder. I bounced off him, hit the kerb and somersaulted, smacking the back of my head hard enough on the pavement that I saw black and my helmet broke clean down the middle.


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## DCLane (8 Oct 2013)

The Wiggle White Peak on Sunday is likely to be one of my final sportives*.

Why? Mostly because of the behaviour of riders on them. As @ColinJ put earlier, their riding skills are often appalling. No shoulder checks, lines all over the place, weaving, stopping, etc.

This year's Brian Robinson ride had riders stopping on their new (probably unridden) Pinarello Dogma's in full Sky kit at the first, albeit steep-ish, hill. What made it worse was they stopped all over the road, causing a hazard for everyone, not just the other riders.

The Dragon Ride had some really bad descending; riders weaving all over at low-ish speeds (30-40mph) when others like me were passing them**. The same happened in the Etape Pennines last year.

The Manchester Great Cycle had riders all over the place and some very slow riders on the 52-mile route being a mid-lane mobile hazard.

Of those I've done this year the only decent one was the Etape du Dales*, possibly because it's longer and harder together with a smaller number of riders so they're spaced out.

* I've put 'likely to be' as I _may_ do the Etape du Dales again next year.
** Yes, you could argue that it's my fault for passing them, but on a wide, straight descent surely you should be able to keep a straight-ish line!


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## ColinJ (8 Oct 2013)

2698159 said:


> I agree that it is not either/or. I just get a little bit fed up with calls for cycling to put its house in order lest drivers and/or wider society take against us. It is such a mote beam issue that our side of it is almost insignificant.


I agree that drivers are generally more of a threat to us than other cyclists, but I have seen really appalling riding on most of the sportives that I have done.

On the Manchester 100 route there is a singletrack bridge over a canal, access controlled by traffic lights. I saw a large group of riders go through a red light, turn onto the bridge and then force oncoming traffic to stop. The riders went by on both sides of the first car, screaming abuse at the poor driver, sticking their fingers up at him, and some even banged on the car roof as they passed. Bloody mob mentality! (They didn't even have the excuse of
being inexperienced - they were riding in club jerseys and looked pretty fit.)



Globalti said:


> Nearest I've come to dying on my bike was when I overtook a group of kids on BSOs and one of them suddenly veered into my path without looking over his shoulder. I bounced off him, hit the kerb and somersaulted, smacking the back of my head hard enough on the pavement that I saw black and my helmet broke clean down the middle.


I gave an old bike to my ex's brother. He loved it. I asked him about it a couple of years later and he said that it was a write-off after an accident similar to yours!


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## jarlrmai (8 Oct 2013)

Mob mentality takes over and the safety of the group gives rise to a release of built up frustration at car drivers, I enjoyed the 52 mile GMC which was on closed roads but I think being too near the front would have made it less enjoyable. I really don't want to deal with "those riders" on a main road with cars as well as cyclists all trying to be Cancellara without the actual skill.


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## PK99 (8 Oct 2013)

DCLane said:


> The Dragon Ride had some really bad descending; riders weaving all over at low-ish speeds (30-40mph) when others like me were passing them**. The same happened in the Etape Pennines last year.



some would argue that calling 30-40mph lowish speed is just the wannabe racer behaviour that is being criticised. It might be best to keep those sorts of speeds for real races or club runs with equally competent riders - not when mixing it with hobby riders out on a ride.

Thr club colleague I quoted earlier in the thread specifically commented on the aggressive cycling she saw on the Dragon Ride


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## the_mikey (8 Oct 2013)

2698086 said:


> Brooks saddles, Caradice bags, mudguards, sandals, and optional beards?



Last audax I rode there was a rider, with a steel framed touring bike, brooks saddle, beard and had a pint of ale in his hand at the first control point.


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## Globalti (8 Oct 2013)

I saw one of those this summer in Whalley; he was the stereotypical long-haul guy on a steel bike with saddlebag, old-style toeclips, Brooks saddle and downtube shifters. Skinny as a rake and a pudding-basin helmet perched uselessly on the back of his noggin. He was accompanied by his two teenage children, both on bikes the wrong size for them, both exhausted (this was at 5.00 in the afternoon) both badly sunburned and both looking surly and unhappy as hell. They had ridden from Chorley and were on their way to spend the night at Slaidburn YHA. It didn't look like a happy family outing to me.


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## User269 (8 Oct 2013)

oldroadman said:


> Reading reports about disruption of sportives by locals, actual attempted sabotage, and constant complaints from resident, are sportives simply too big and out of control?
> Are there simply too many in some areas (New Forest, Surrey around Box Hill, for instance)?
> Are some very stupid riders treating the events as a "5th category road race" (very dangerous and inconsiderate to all)?
> Are these events harming the image of cycling?
> ...




I find this deeply depressing. Where l live we are plagued by endless vintage and veteran car and motorcycle rallies, causing extra traffic and a great deal of noise. In addition to the organised events there are large groups of 'rolling traffic jam' motorcyclists riding in excess of the speed limit, again noisily. And people choose to take action against a cycling event??


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## DRHysted (8 Oct 2013)

Strangely the worst riding I saw on Sunday were all from groups in team kits. The overtaking was done with only a few inches between handle bars (they may be comfortable with this but I'm not), there were no shoulder checks to ensure they had past me, they just cut in when they wanted, and no warning they were coming.
Personally I do nearly all my riding alone (so far sportives are my only experiance of group riding). If I'm overtaking I call "passing on the right" or similar, I always give a few feet of distance, and I always check I am some distance ahead before I tuck back in.
From what I have seen from the groups passing my house to get to the New Forest this club riding style is not reserved for sportives, which is one of the reasons I have not looked into joining a club.


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## totallyfixed (8 Oct 2013)

Take a country lane that is for the sake of argument 5 miles long before another junction is reached, even if all the riders on a large Sportive are behaving reasonably but are strung out in a long line, the car will not be able to overtake because there would be nowhere to safely pull in again if another vehicle comes the opposite way, for the driver an eight or nine minute journey becomes one of twenty with the added pressure of being surrounded by cyclists [I use the term loosely] There is a good reason why club cyclists ride in tight compact groups other than for drafting purposes and instinctively know when to "single out", they are all part of the etiquette of group riding.
Another phenomena has also occurred, on another forum a thread has been running about how club riding in many parts of the country is under threat from "Sportive" riders joining the clubs and disrupting what used to be an enjoyable social ride into a free for all, with these riders unwilling to take on the wisdom of the senior club men and women.
I am with oldroadman on this, I think something is going to give somewhere, but at present I honestly think that despite the increased number of "cyclists" out there, skill, etiquette and simple good manners are in shorter supply.


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## PK99 (8 Oct 2013)

DRHysted said:


> *Strangely the worst riding I saw on Sunday were all from groups in team kits.* The overtaking was done with only a few inches between handle bars (they may be comfortable with this but I'm not), there were no shoulder checks to ensure they had past me, they just cut in when they wanted, and no warning they were coming.
> .



Snap!

On the charity ride (not even a Sportive ffs!) there was a group of very fit very fast riders in a tight group all in the same kit (linked to the charity) who swept past slower riders in a tight double line. When they passed me, I could have put my hand on the guys bars he was that close.


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## TonyEnjoyD (8 Oct 2013)

2697025 said:


> Sounds like locals, residents etc out of control to me.


Was that not the GNR Arch?


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## oldroadman (8 Oct 2013)

Interesting run of comment. Clearly some people are nervous of close passes, although if you are able to ride in a reasonably straight line there should be no problem. Comments about descending skill (lack of) I can bvelieve, it takes confidence and experience to be a good safe descender, and whilst confidence may abound skill and experience clearly do not.
I stated that in order to start criticising others (it's really boring how people criticise "drivers", thus type casting them in the same way as everyone who rides a bike is a "cyclist") in a constructive fashion, first ensure you are not in a glass house throwing stones. The rest of the comments on this thread would seem to evidence this. So I repeat, unless sportives get a grip of the issues, someone will propose and get through some very challenging legislation, then what?


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## PK99 (8 Oct 2013)

oldroadman said:


> Interesting run of comment. Clearly some people are nervous of close passes, although *if you are able to ride in a reasonably straight line there should be no problem*.
> ?



The same could be said about close passes by cars.......


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## Hip Priest (8 Oct 2013)

2698831 said:


> What sort of legislation do you envisage?



Blanket ban on 3XL Team Sky jerseys.


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## Shut Up Legs (8 Oct 2013)

oldroadman said:


> Clearly some people are nervous of close passes





User13710 said:


> You say that as if it is a bad thing.


It is. With close passes, the chance of a collision occurring is higher. Unless the cyclists know each other, neither can be sure about the other's ability to hold a straight line, so close passes are risky.


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## oldroadman (8 Oct 2013)

2698831 said:


> What sort of legislation do you envisage?


 No idea, but looking back there has been none that made things easier!


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## Rob3rt (9 Oct 2013)

Whilst I am pro people riding bikes, I sympathise with people who live in a location which is very popular with sportive routes, much like I am to those who have races running through their village weekly (my local TT league uses the same couple of courses week in week out, despite there being loads of courses around).

I think that sportives should be regulated to the same extent road racing is. Of course the regulations will need to be made relevant, but the extent should be equivalent!


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## pawl (10 Oct 2013)

I was out for a ride on Sunday at various junctions there were red directional arrows,nothing on them to indicate what they referred to.I was without warning passed a group of ten riders so close i could have touched there bars.

I was not aware there was a Sportive taking place in the area . No warning signs that a cycle event was taking place.Perhaps Cyling Weekly /Cycling Plus by in some there reports referring to the event as a race.I am an experienced cyclist but was taken by surprise to be overtaken by this fast moving group.


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## Dmcd33 (11 Oct 2013)

I must say, I've completed a few sportives this year with no bother. A recent good idea from the promoters was if you hand in a gel sachet, then they give you a free one back.

There are multiple spoting events that impact on people's lives and there is little or no way round it. I do agree that they should be spread out across the country a bit to minimise distruption. Cyling three abrest knowing that cars are behind you is also a bug bear of mine. As people say, it's a sportive, not the Tour!

Cycling does become the fall guy for a lot of peoples frustrations though generally, not just in sportives. The whole "banning" thing gets silly though, as we all have the liberty of deciding how we behave in general (driving, alcohol consumption) and banning things is never the answer.

I am personally in favour of behaving well and giving the moaners little to point the finger at (however, one red light jumper in their eyes makes us all guilty??)


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## alecstilleyedye (11 Oct 2013)

few in my local club bother with the local sportive rides; why pay £30 to ride a route we can do on a club run for the princly sum of £12 per year?

maybe sportive organisers should issue some etiquette advice on how to ride in groups when the place is booked…


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## adamhearn (12 Oct 2013)

I dislike the whole sportive concept. I'd do a local ride to support something or other but not these pretend races. There does seem to be a whole lot of 'em organised over the past couple of years.


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## DRHysted (12 Oct 2013)

adamhearn said:


> I dislike the whole sportive concept. I'd do a local ride to support something or other but not these pretend races. There does seem to be a whole lot of 'em organised over the past couple of years.



Yes they do seem to be taking off quite well, and the demand is outstripping supply. But please don't call them a race, how can we get the general public to accept them as a "run ride" (same concept as the fun runs I used to take part in), if we (the people who should know) refer to them as races.


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## Hill Wimp (13 Oct 2013)

I don't see the point of the timing chips when most people have some sort of GPS record of all their rides anyway. These in themselves give the impression of a race.


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## jdtate101 (13 Oct 2013)

I ride quite a few sportive's per yr (typically about 5-8) and I always make sure I'm in the first batch to go off in the morning so I can avoid all the numpties. You do see an awful lot of people who have no idea how to group ride, spread themselves all over the road and weave dangerously. These tend to be the people newer to the sport and have yet to learn the rules of the road. I usually go out hard, distance the main bunch then settle in and enjoy the ride. I will get caught but only by other fast riders who generally know what they are doing. I'm starting to do less of them as I think they are getting a bit out of control, especially the mass one's (the worst one I've been on being the Dragon Ride, with lots of idiots riding beyond their abilities and ending up crashing, some with serious injuries).
Although saying that the attitudes in other regions in the country are very different. The rampant anti-cycling lobby seems to be far more vocal in the south...


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (13 Oct 2013)

alecstilleyedye said:


> few in my local club bother with the local sportive rides; why pay £30 to ride a route we can do on a club run for the princly sum of £12 per year?
> 
> maybe sportive organisers should issue some etiquette advice on how to ride in groups when the place is booked…


One of the biggest(if not the biggest sportive here) did just this via facebook/twitter and leaflets in the registration pack.

The majority of the day was the worst riding I've ever seen so advice was neither read nor understood. These people were actually complaining about organised club groups going faster than them!


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## Hip Priest (13 Oct 2013)

DRHysted said:


> Yes they do seem to be taking off quite well, and the demand is outstripping supply. But please don't call them a race, how can we get the general public to accept them as a "run ride" (same concept as the fun runs I used to take part in), if we (the people who should know) refer to them as races.



I was leafing through Cycling Plus yesterday, and they had some 'top sportive riders' giving advice about how to prepare ahead of a 'big race'. It made me laugh. A sportive is nothing like a bike race.

I've done a couple of local sportives, but they're a bit of a pain. I'd much rather go out with the club.


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## Arrowfoot (13 Oct 2013)

Have to agree with the comments here to get our own house in order. 

We should be delighted that it is popular and still growing. Let's therefore pay attention to the conduct of participants, bringing locals onside by various communicative means and working with other sportive clubs to coordinate rides to avoid overuse of the same patch and share experiences that reduces the nuisance factor. 

We will never win over all but we can sure make an efforts to do more to get this weekend activity recognised.


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## 400bhp (13 Oct 2013)

Hip Priest said:


> I was leafing through Cycling Plus yesterday, and they had some 'top sportive riders' giving advice about how to prepare ahead of a 'big race'. It made me laugh. A sportive is nothing like a bike race.



+1. That mag is getting odder.


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## Hip Priest (13 Oct 2013)

400bhp said:


> +1. That mag is getting odder.



It's terrible. Just a big advertising supplement aimed at the cycling-is-the-new-golf set.


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## 400bhp (13 Oct 2013)

Hip Priest said:


> It's terrible. Just a big advertising supplement aimed at the cycling-is-the-new-golf set.



Absolutely spot on. So so true.

Have you noticed the subtle introduction of Decathlon stuff


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## Hill Wimp (13 Oct 2013)

I did an all female Sportive today in the New Forest. Only saw a couple of bits of daft riding and overall it was good but there were a few that insisted on riding 2-3 abreast and kept getting hooted at by cars and wondering why.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (13 Oct 2013)

Hill Wimp said:


> I did an all female Sportive today in the New Forest. Only saw a couple of bits of daft riding and overall it was good but there were a few that insisted on riding 2-3 abreast and kept getting hooted at by cars and wondering why.


Impatient or illinformed driver who thinks riding 3abreast is illegal?


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## Linford (13 Oct 2013)

2698159 said:


> I agree that it is not either/or. I just get a little bit fed up with calls for cycling to put its house in order lest drivers and/or wider society take against us. It is such a mote beam issue that our side of it is almost insignificant.



The bottom line is that there a 2 different types of cyclist. One which has had some sort of train in road craft, and plays the game, and the other sort who has learned ride a bike but is an accident waiting to happen and either ignores the obvious dangers which they create to themselves and others around them, or just doesn't see them.


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## Hill Wimp (13 Oct 2013)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Impatient or illinformed driver who thinks riding 3abreast is illegal?



It is if the conditions don't allow for it.

Riding dangerously or carelessly
If a cyclist is on a ‘road’ (that includes a pavement on a public highway) and is riding dangerously or carelessly, they are committing an offence under sections 28 and 29 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, as amended.
The definition of ‘dangerous cycling’ given in section 28 is if the way one rides “rides falls far below what would be expected of a competent and careful cyclist, and it would be obvious to a competent and careful cyclist that riding in that way would be dangerous”. In this context, “dangerous” refers to danger either of injury to any person or of serious damage to property. What would “be obvious to a competent and careful cyclist” in a particular case includes not only the circumstances of which he could be expected to be aware but also to any circumstances shown to have been within the knowledge of the accused.
The definition of ‘careless and inconsiderate cycling’ given in section 29 is that *“if a person rides a cycle on a road without due care and attention, or without reasonable consideration for other persons using the road, he is guilty of an offence”.*
The maximum fine for dangerous cycling is £2,500 and for careless or inconsiderate cycling it is £1,000. It is also an offence under section 31 of the 1988 Act for a person to promote or take part in an unauthorised race or trial of speed of cycles on public highways. It is an offence to cycle through red traffic lights under section 36 of the Act.

They were not being considerate to the drivers coming face on and behind, in effect they were blocking the road. The drivers were not being impatient at all.


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## jdtate101 (13 Oct 2013)

I think that starting to ride a bike in groups is also a bit like starting out your driving career. You tend to act rashly and a bit of a tit until you have an accident or close shave, then you calm down a bit and behave.


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## User6179 (13 Oct 2013)

Hill Wimp said:


> It is if the conditions don't allow for it.
> 
> Riding dangerously or carelessly
> If a cyclist is on a ‘road’ (that includes a pavement on a public highway) and is riding dangerously or carelessly, they are committing an offence under sections 28 and 29 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, as amended.
> ...


 
Sounds like to many riders bunching up , pedal for Scotland was like this but the roads were quite empty of cars so was not much of a problem.


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## alecstilleyedye (13 Oct 2013)

Eddy said:


> Sounds like to many riders bunching up , pedal for Scotland was like this but the roads were quite empty of cars so was not much of a problem.


a few suzuki 650s though


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## Boris Bajic (14 Oct 2013)

DRHysted said:


> Yes they do seem to be taking off quite well, and the demand is outstripping supply. But please don't call them a race, how can we get the general public to accept them as a "run ride" (same concept as the fun runs I used to take part in), if we (the people who should know) refer to them as races.



I know nobody who does sportives who does not tacitly accept that they are races. They are races.

That is why people call the races.

As some very astute poster above said, there are plenty of club runs for people who want a group ride that is not a race.

One day the bubble will burst and supply will again outstrip demand, but for now there is a market for these races and nature (and commerce) abhor a vacuum.


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## DRHysted (14 Oct 2013)

Boris Bajic said:


> I know nobody who does sportives who does not tacitly accept that they are races. They are races.
> 
> That is why people call the races.
> 
> ...



Well now you know there is at least one who doesn't call it a race, There are many others that I know who don't think it's a race, and that includes organisors.
But then that is because Sortives are not races!


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## Berties (14 Oct 2013)

Three events in the new Forest yesterday ,and other than the weather was a great day saw no littering,even poked my head in at another food stop and was offered a drink whilst waiting for catch up,I always descend with care and respect and give it beans in open areas ,I did see a rider not bother to slow for animals,the ponies are curious and do come towards you and the sheep congregate in the road,dropping speed for 20 seconds won't affect your time,I still kept a good average time,and still took time to pose for piccies with the black donkey!and tea with the other riders


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## Dusty Bin (14 Oct 2013)

Boris Bajic said:


> I know nobody who does sportives who does not tacitly accept that they are races. They are races.
> 
> That is why people call the races.
> 
> ...



If they were actually 'races' then they would come under the _'Cycle Racing on the Highways Regulations, 1960'_ - but they don't. If they did come under those regulations, most of the sportive organisers would go out of business overnight. Most, if not all, sportives do not in any way conform to those regs and most sportive organisers are very careful to avoid references to 'racing' - because if they did, the police and the local BC region would be down on them like a ton of bricks. 

Start calling them races - start making the organisers run them under the same rules and regs that *real* races have to abide by - and watch the organisers quietly disappear.


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## Boris Bajic (14 Oct 2013)

Dusty Bin said:


> If they were actually 'races' then they would come under the _'Cycle Racing on the Highways Regulations, 1960'_ - but they don't. If they did come under those regulations, most of the sportive organisers would go out of business overnight. Most, if not all, sportives do not in any way conform to those regs and most sportive organisers are very careful to avoid references to 'racing' - because if they did, the police and the local BC region would be down on them like a ton of bricks.
> 
> Start calling them races - start making the organisers run them under the same rules and regs that *real* races have to abide by - and watch the organisers quietly disappear.


 
That is the sound of a nail being hit on the head. Dead centre. Very hard. 

But they are races (literally) in all but name.

If a few participants buy into the flannel about them not being races, that's lovely and should be commended. But it is still flannel.


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## Dusty Bin (14 Oct 2013)

2709263 said:


> So, once some influential verderer in the New Forest works this out and persuades a senior police officer to test it out in a court, we could have an answer.



The thing is, anyone could find out this stuff after about 5 minutes on google. All the sportive organisers have to do is avoid anything which might give the impression of a race and the police are largely powerless. Sportives do not even need police permission in order to run. There was a classic case a couple of years ago where a 'proper' and long-standing road race had to be cancelled at the last minute, because the organising club discovered that a new sportive was going to be run on the same day, using part of the race circuit. Because of that, the police had no option but to withdraw permission for the race (for safety reasons), because the sportive organiser didn't bother to check. Ironically, the sportive was able to continue, because it didn't need police permission.


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## Dusty Bin (14 Oct 2013)

2709295 said:


> Like the times and placings?



Yes. BC advice to sportive organisers is NOT to publish results in finishing order and not to award 'podium' prizes. Timing info can be used, but I believe this must not be in chronological order either. 

http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/zuvvi/media/Cycle_Sportive_Event_Guidelines_V2_April2013_FINAL.pdf

Having said that, I know of at least one large sportive which breaks most of these rules.


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## Dusty Bin (14 Oct 2013)

2709313 said:


> If it is important, a court could decide. Seeing as they only annoy two groups of people, proper racers and car drivers, though I don't think that it is.



It would be a disaster if some clueless judge had to set a precedent which could potentially affect the future of cycle racing in this country. It would be a start if all sportives were made to run under the BC calendar and guidelines..


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## VamP (14 Oct 2013)

2709313 said:


> If it is important, a court could decide. Seeing as they only annoy two groups of people, proper racers and car drivers, though I don't think that it is.


 
I don't even think that they annoy proper racers all that much. With the exception of those whose race got cancelled obviously.


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## Boris Bajic (14 Oct 2013)

Back in the Eighties, tracks and clubs ran track days for motorcyclists. This was before the recent (last two decades?) explosion in these events.

Scutineering was fairly severe (wired sump plugs, wired side stands, taped lamps, removal of indicators, centre stand and so on) and leathers had to be worn (although not one-piece in those enlightened days).

At every turn, the organisers and club officials (IMOC etc) would stress that this was not racing; it was just a day of track experience.

Those track days made a noise like a duck and they walked a lot like a duck. They even looked like a duck, but they were not a duck because we were told they were not a duck. I think that sportives also have something of the duck about them in manner, voice, appearance and gait. But they are not ducks either.


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## Dusty Bin (14 Oct 2013)

2709338 said:


> Are you sure? There are posts in this thread that suggest otherwise.



'proper' racers probably do get annoyed with them being called races - because they are not races.. 

Car drivers also get stuck behind proper races - as well as getting stuck behind sportive groups. In both cases, all car drivers see is a group of cyclists and are probably unconcerned as to the exact classification of the event that they are stuck behind.


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## PK99 (14 Oct 2013)

DRHysted said:


> Well now you know there is at least one who doesn't call it a race, There are many others that I know who don't think it's a race, and that includes organisors.
> But then that is because Sortives are not races!



The very fact that there are Gold/silver/bronze awards for times achieved, often with age categories, suggests there is a degree of self deception in not admitting they are races in all but name. they cannot be called races or referred to as races by organiser as that would lead to an automatic ban.


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## snorri (14 Oct 2013)

Dusty Bin said:


> _'Cycle Racing on the Highways Regulations, 1960'_


Some might say ripe for revision


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## Dusty Bin (14 Oct 2013)

snorri said:


> Some might say ripe for revision



They were last revised in 1995, but they're probably due again. There is currently a lobby for a completely new law, in any case...


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (14 Oct 2013)

*spor·tive *
/ˈspôrtiv/
Adjective
Playful; lighthearted.
Synonyms
playful - sportful - frolicsome - gamesome - frisky


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## VamP (14 Oct 2013)

2709338 said:


> Are you sure? There are posts in this thread that suggest otherwise.


 

Pretty sure.


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## Dusty Bin (14 Oct 2013)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> *spor·tive *
> /ˈspôrtiv/
> Adjective
> Playful; lighthearted.
> ...



words you would not normally associate with sportives...


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## jowwy (14 Oct 2013)

I have read through a few replies in this thread and find them quite funny

i ride sportives, do i think they are a race - NO. 

but we could say that people riding without due care and attention to the road cause they are chasing a KOM or fastest section on STRAVA would be racing without being in a race

a sportive is what an individual makes of it, some will treat it as a mass group ride to enjoy with like minded others, some others will treat it as a race and try to finish first. But all the sportives i have ridden in have never had people stand on a podium and accept medals for 1,2 or 3rd and none of them have listed the timings in this order either.

WHY - cause its not a race SIMPLES


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## DRHysted (14 Oct 2013)

jowwy said:


> I have read through a few replies in this thread and find them quite funny
> 
> i ride sportives, do i think they are a race - NO.
> 
> ...



Don't think I could put it any better.

Me and everyone I meet at the Sportives, will continue buying into the flannel that they are not races, because they are not races. If they were we would be racing, and I know I'm not!!!


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## Hacienda71 (14 Oct 2013)

Then to confuse the issue further you have events like The Great Manchester Cycle and Ride London which are closed road events but are not races, despite certainly in the case of the GMC having timing chips, published results, both by overall rank and age category rank. It was also ridden by a fairly large number of people who are actively racing or time trialling at other times. Iirc it was sponsored by BC. Sort of a no man's land between racing and sportives. I suppose as the GMC was organised by a company affiliated to Brendan Foster it took inspiration from athletics mass participation rather than cycling. In both instances average speeds of the faster guys was 24 to 25 mph which is not disimilar to many intermediate Cat road races.


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## Hill Wimp (14 Oct 2013)

DRHysted said:


> Don't think I could put it any better.
> 
> Me and everyone I meet at the Sportives, will continue buying into the flannel that they are not races, because they are not races. If they were we would be racing, and I know I'm not!!!



If i thought they were races i wouldn't be entering them as i don't want to race any more. Did a bit when i was a lot younger and moved on to something else. Now i just enjoy somebody else choosing the route in another part of the country and meeting up with friends from around the country. If my entrance fee goes to charity then thats a bonus.


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## ColinJ (14 Oct 2013)

jowwy said:


> But all the sportives i have ridden in have never had people stand on a podium and accept medals for 1,2 or 3rd and none of them have listed the timings in this order either.
> 
> WHY - cause its not a race SIMPLES


Sorry, but I have seen many sportive websites list the results in finishing order, with times - example.


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## jowwy (14 Oct 2013)

ColinJ said:


> Sorry, but I have seen many sportive websites list the results in finishing order, with times - example.


i have just clicked onto that link colin - would you class 72 riders a sportive - maybe you would and its the first time i have seen them listed in that way (as in rider time order)


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## mcshroom (14 Oct 2013)

So now a sportive has to have a minimum size?


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## ColinJ (14 Oct 2013)

jowwy said:


> i have just clicked onto that link colin - would you class 72 riders a sportive - maybe you would and its the first time i have seen them listed in that way (as in rider time order)


They were the _fastest_ 72. I think there were actually over 300 riders in the full length event.


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## VamP (14 Oct 2013)

ColinJ said:


> Sorry, but I have seen many sportive websites list the results in finishing order, with times - example.


 
All the Evans sportives list riders in finishing order too. I think it's fairly ubiquitous.

I think all the guys protesting that they are not a race should have a reconsideration about their own motivations for riding sportives. Why travel long distances, pay high entry fees, be confined to a pre-determined and crowded routes, endangered by poor riding, wear a timing chip and have your time recorded, just to claim that they are not racing?

What do you get out of it? Not judging, just puzzled.


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## Hill Wimp (14 Oct 2013)

Its a good place to meet up with friends from all over the country that are into cycling so you can ride and achieve a distance together. Yes you could organise it yourself but we all have busy lives and the organisation is taken away from you and done, including feeding you. Plus you can make a weekend of it and see the area around a bit.
Couldn't care a hoot what my time was or where i came in the list of riders.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (14 Oct 2013)

Must be a mainland thing, very few here are timed.


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## Leodis (14 Oct 2013)

Doesnt the dragon ride supply time chips for people? I do think though when you are having 3000 people turn up to use open roads a bit much, spesh when they are charging huge amounts to enter.


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## ColinJ (14 Oct 2013)

Hill Wimp said:


> Its a good place to meet up with friends from all over the country that are into cycling so you can ride and achieve a distance together. Yes you could organise it yourself but we all have busy lives and the organisation is taken away from you and done, including feeding you. Plus you can make a weekend of it and see the area around a bit.
> Couldn't care a hoot what my time was or where i came in the list of riders.


That's why I got into organising forum rides like this one and this one, and riding other people's like this one and this one!


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## VamP (14 Oct 2013)

Hill Wimp said:


> Its a good place to meet up with friends from all over the country that are into cycling so you can ride and achieve a distance together. Yes you could organise it yourself *but we all have busy lives and the organisation is taken away from you and done, including feeding you*. Plus you can make a weekend of it and see the area around a bit.
> Couldn't care a hoot what my time was or where i came in the list of riders.


 
This is the part I don't get. How hard is to get together for a ride with just your friends and do EXACTLY what you want, rather than some other dude's idea of what you should do? For free. And without all the annoying testosterone. And rubbish food.


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## Saluki (14 Oct 2013)

Hill Wimp said:


> If i thought they were races i wouldn't be entering them as i don't want to race any more. Did a bit when i was a lot younger and moved on to something else. Now i just enjoy somebody else choosing the route in another part of the country and meeting up with friends from around the country. If my entrance fee goes to charity then thats a bonus.


Same here.
I too used to race but had a 250cc 2 stoke engine to help me along.


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## Rob3rt (14 Oct 2013)

Sportives straddle a line that needs clarifying and regulating.


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## jowwy (14 Oct 2013)

VamP said:


> This is the part I don't get. How hard is to get together for a ride with just your friends and do EXACTLY what you want, rather than some other dude's idea of what you should do? For free. And without all the annoying testosterone. And rubbish food.


horses for courses VamP


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## jowwy (14 Oct 2013)

Leodis said:


> Doesnt the dragon ride supply time chips for people? I do think though when you are having 3000 people turn up to use open roads a bit much, spesh when they are charging huge amounts to enter.


i'm sure this years first ever london ride 100 also used timing chips for its 20,000 riders. it might have been on closed roads but it was still a sportive not a race.


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## Rob3rt (14 Oct 2013)

jowwy said:


> i'm sure this years first ever london ride 100 also used timing chips for its 20,000 riders. it might have been on closed roads but it was still a sportive not a race.



Isn't that the event where that rather comical picture of some doofus crashing during the "bunch sprint" originated from? lmao!


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## jowwy (14 Oct 2013)

Rob3rt said:


> Isn't that the event where that rather comical picture of some doofus crashing during the "bunch sprint" originated from? lmao!


aint got a clue - didnt watch it


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## Rob3rt (14 Oct 2013)

Basically Sportive organisers need to decide, do they want to promote a ride or a race (considering they want to make money, a race for amateur athletes is not likely to be what they want to be promoting). If the former, then they need to strip away any of the race-like aspects completelly. If the latter, then they need to just make the jump into organising a full blown race rather than create a race like event but state often "it is not a race" to dodge regulations.

At present too many of them get away with straddling the line, they get as close to creating a race as they possibly can, leaving only enough swivvel factor to dodge the regulations.


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## VamP (14 Oct 2013)

jowwy said:


> horses for courses VamP


 
What does that mean?


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## jowwy (14 Oct 2013)

VamP said:


> What does that mean?


some people prefer to pay for organised rides, some people prefer to organise their own. horses for courses


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## Rob3rt (14 Oct 2013)

The cost or the worth of the sportive experience for the individual is of minor importance to the debate IMO.


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## Hip Priest (14 Oct 2013)

VamP said:


> This is the part I don't get. How hard is to get together for a ride with just your friends and do EXACTLY what you want, rather than some other dude's idea of what you should do? For free. And without all the annoying testosterone. And rubbish food.



Because you don't get to go home and spend £40 on a picture of yourself labouring up a minor ramp on your featherweight carbon bike wearing your XXXL Sky jersey.


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## Leodis (14 Oct 2013)

jowwy said:


> i'm sure this years first ever london ride 100 also used timing chips for its 20,000 riders. i*t might have been on closed road*s but it was still a sportive not a race.



That is the whole point isnt it, Sportives were 3000+ turn up can be a problem for other road users.


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## jowwy (14 Oct 2013)

Hip Priest said:


> Because you don't get to go home and spend £40 on a picture of yourself labouring up a minor ramp on your featherweight carbon bike wearing your XXXL Sky jersey.


not all sportive riders are overweight MAMILS hip priest. the same as not all cyclists are pavement hopping, red light jumpers and idiots of the road.


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## jowwy (14 Oct 2013)

Leodis said:


> That is the whole point isnt it, Sportives were 3000+ turn up can be a problem for other road users.


have you ridden the dragon ride - the route isnt exactly rush hour traffic its in pretty rural wales. seen more cars in a formula one race


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## VamP (14 Oct 2013)

jowwy said:


> some people prefer to pay for organised rides, some people prefer to organise their own. horses for courses


 
So sportives are for people who don't like racing, but like to pay to ride? While surrounded by others who would like to race, but are unable? You're not helping me understand.


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## Hip Priest (14 Oct 2013)

jowwy said:


> not all sportive riders are overweight MAMILS hip priest. the same as not all cyclists are pavement hopping, red light jumpers and idiots of the road.



I know, but sometimes it's fun to play around with stereotypes.


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## jowwy (14 Oct 2013)

VamP said:


> So sportives are for people who don't like racing, but like to pay to ride? While surrounded by others who would like to race, but are unable? You're not helping me understand.


i just said it was horses for courses, im not here to help you understand.


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## Leodis (14 Oct 2013)

Hip Priest said:


> Because you don't get to go home and spend £40 on a picture of yourself *labouring up a minor ramp on your featherweight carbon bike wearing your XXXL Sky jersey*.



Its team Wiggle Honda actually!!


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## jowwy (14 Oct 2013)

Hip Priest said:


> I know, but sometimes it's fun to play around with stereotypes.


fun for you maybe


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## VamP (14 Oct 2013)

jowwy said:


> i just said it was horses for courses, im not here to help you understand.


 
It's a game of two halves.


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## jowwy (14 Oct 2013)

VamP said:


> It's a game of two halves.


yup so is football and rugby


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## Dusty Bin (14 Oct 2013)

Personally, I don't care if sportive riders 'think' they are racing or not. I also don't care who rides them. I've ridden a few myself when there's been nothing else on - as do a lot of other 'racing' cyclists. Nothing wrong with it.

My only issue is with the organisation of them - and the impact that may or may not have on the general public and the racing calendar. And the cost..


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## User6179 (14 Oct 2013)

jowwy said:


> not all sportive riders are overweight MAMILS hip priest. the same as not all cyclists are pavement hopping, red light jumpers and idiots of the road.


 
Most are MAMILS jowwy


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## Rob3rt (14 Oct 2013)

That went bonkers pretty rapid!


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## jowwy (14 Oct 2013)

2710494 said:


> Can I have second dibs if he doesn't want them?


im not selling them


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## Hip Priest (14 Oct 2013)

I've apologised to jowwy and resolved to stop making childish remarks on t'internet.


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## Rob3rt (14 Oct 2013)

Hip Priest said:


> I've apologised to jowwy and resolved to stop making childish remarks on t'internet.



LMFAO!


----------



## michaelcycle (14 Oct 2013)

Hip Priest said:


> stop making childish remarks on t'internet.



Isn't that the whole point of the internet?


----------



## Hip Priest (14 Oct 2013)

michaelcycle said:


> Isn't that the whole point of the internet?



I couldn't possibly comment.


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## User6179 (14 Oct 2013)

michaelcycle said:


> Isn't that the whole point of the internet?


 
The whole point of tinternet is to show how petty we all are


----------



## michaelcycle (14 Oct 2013)

Eddy said:


> The whole point of tinternet is to show how petty we all are



It's obviously working.

And cat gifs. Always cat gifs...

As for sportives I guess they are like any mass participation event. It's as much as simply being part of something rather than anything else, a grand day out. They do seem to suffer from a lack of clear identity though.


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## jowwy (14 Oct 2013)

the point of this thread was to debate sportives - not berate, chastise or sully the equipment purchase of others for their own self worth.


----------



## User6179 (14 Oct 2013)

jowwy said:


> the point of this thread was to debate sportives - not berate, chastise or sully the equipment purchase of others for their own self worth.


 

Jealousy is a strong emotion


----------



## lukesdad (14 Oct 2013)

Sounds rather like a lot of sour grapes to me, a minority chastising a majority for enjoying themselves. The minority seeming to be mainly BC license holders, how very predictable .


----------



## Dusty Bin (14 Oct 2013)

lukesdad said:


> Sounds rather like a lot of sour grapes to me, a minority chastising a majority for enjoying themselves. The minority seeming to be mainly BC license holders, how very predictable .



Just in case that was directed at me - as I said earlier, I don't have an issue with people riding bikes on organised events. But I do want to see better co-ordination of them so that nobody (riders, race organisers, local residents) is worse off as a result. If you don't like BC licence holders, maybe you should not enter any BC events.


----------



## Hip Priest (14 Oct 2013)

lukesdad said:


> Sounds rather like a lot of sour grapes to me, a minority chastising a majority for enjoying themselves. The minority seeming to be mainly BC license holders, how very predictable .



The vast majority of those against sportives aren't even cyclists.


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## jowwy (14 Oct 2013)

Eddy said:


> Jealousy is a strong emotion


yes it is - im jealous of a lot of peoples bikes within this forum, but i dont berate or chastise them for owning it.


----------



## lukesdad (14 Oct 2013)

Dusty Bin said:


> Just in case that was directed at me - as I said earlier, I don't have an issue with people riding bikes on organised events. But I do want to see better co-ordination of them so that nobody (riders, race organisers, local residents) is worse off as a result. If you don't like BC licence holders, maybe you should not enter any BC events.


You have a problem with the Merlin or tour of pembs events? Both are scheduled well in advance and are well organised


----------



## Dusty Bin (14 Oct 2013)

lukesdad said:


> You have a problem with the Merlin or tour of pembs events? Both are scheduled well in advance and are well organised



Have you looked at the way the Merlin displays the results?


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## lukesdad (14 Oct 2013)

Dusty Bin said:


> Have you looked at the way the Merlin displays the results?


...and? I think you are confusing a race with a long distance time trial and as you will know from your history it's not the first time this debate has existed in the sport in this country.


----------



## Dusty Bin (14 Oct 2013)

lukesdad said:


> ...and? I think you are confusing a race with a long distance time trial and as you will know from your history it's not the first time this debate has existed in the sport in this country.



You don't seriously think the Merlin is a long distance TT? Like I said earlier - BC guidelines require that organisers do not do anything to give the impression of 'competition' - including publishing the results in finishing time order and awarding placings. That is what the organisers have done, or did you miss that bit?

The event was billed as a sportive under BC regulations - not a long distance time trial. BC goes out of its way to define sportives as 'non-competitive' and CTT don't do sportives. Not yet anyway...


----------



## Hip Priest (14 Oct 2013)

jowwy said:


> yes it is - im jealous of a lot of peoples bikes within this forum, but i dont berate or chastise them for owning it.



Can't believe you're still going on about it. It was a joke, I apologised to you, get over yourself.


----------



## jowwy (14 Oct 2013)

Hip Priest said:


> Can't believe you're still going on about it. It was a joke, I apologised to you, get over yourself.


im just replying to a comment made - i accepted your apology i have nothing to get over.


----------



## lukesdad (14 Oct 2013)

Hip Priest said:


> The vast majority of those against sportives aren't even cyclists.


That'll be any cycling event they're against.


----------



## Hill Wimp (14 Oct 2013)

and I thought I was ignoring the CAD thread


----------



## Hip Priest (14 Oct 2013)

lukesdad said:


> That'll be any cycling event they're against.



That's probably true, to an extent. But it's the frequency of sportives in some areas of the country that has prompted some people to take action.


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## jowwy (14 Oct 2013)

[QUOTE 2711101, member: 30090"]What bike have you got? Full spec and pictures please.

Ta Mulchy[/quote]its in the photo gallery - show me your titanium


----------



## DRHysted (15 Oct 2013)

VamP said:


> All the Evans sportives list riders in finishing order too. I think it's fairly ubiquitous.
> 
> I think all the guys protesting that they are not a race should have a reconsideration about their own motivations for riding sportives. Why travel long distances, pay high entry fees, be confined to a pre-determined and crowded routes, endangered by poor riding, wear a timing chip and have your time recorded, just to claim that they are not racing?
> 
> What do you get out of it? Not judging, just puzzled.



Enjoyment.
Is that a crime.
And it's not a flaming race.
If it was a race would we all be stopping at the food stops, having a chat, looking at the elevation profile. No we'd only stop if need be, and then the stop would be as fast a possible. Would groups stop at the top of steep hills, to cheer others on, Hell no we'd be charging on, don't want others catching up.

The only conclusion I can draw is that you are entering races, whereas I am entering sportives (which are not races ffs).


----------



## DRHysted (15 Oct 2013)

Leodis said:


> Doesnt the dragon ride supply time chips for people? I do think though when you are having 3000 people turn up to use open roads a bit much, spesh when they are charging huge amounts to enter.



The thing is the ones I have been on it's 3000 over two days, so 1500 per day (and that's if everyone that paid turns up). Shockingly the media are distorting the numbers slightly. Also it seems to be only the commercial ones that are being hammered, we had the cycletta last weekend, and there was not a peep from the media (in fact there were 3 events here last weekend, but because none of them had Wiggle in the title nothing happened)


----------



## VamP (15 Oct 2013)

DRHysted said:


> Enjoyment.
> Is that a crime.
> And it's not a flaming race.
> If it was a race would we all be stopping at the food stops, having a chat, looking at the elevation profile. No we'd only stop if need be, and then the stop would be as fast a possible. Would groups stop at the top of steep hills, to cheer others on, Hell no we'd be charging on, don't want others catching up.
> ...


 

The only conclusion I can draw is that you have trouble comprehending the written word and conducting polite discourse.


----------



## Leodis (15 Oct 2013)

DRHysted said:


> Enjoyment.
> Is that a crime.
> And it's not a flaming race.
> If it was a race would we all be stopping at the food stops, having a chat, looking at the elevation profile. No we'd only stop if need be, and then the stop would be as fast a possible. Would groups stop at the top of steep hills, to cheer others on, Hell no we'd be charging on, don't want others catching up.
> ...



I can understand your attitude been from the New Forest with the yokels around there.


----------



## PK99 (15 Oct 2013)

DRHysted said:


> Enjoyment.
> Is that a crime.
> And it's not a flaming race.
> If it was a race would we all be stopping at the food stops, having a chat, looking at the elevation profile. No we'd only stop if need be, and then the stop would be as fast a possible. Would groups stop at the top of steep hills, to cheer others on, Hell no we'd be charging on, don't want others catching up.
> ...



The point being made is that *some* people do regard sportives as a race, not all, some. It is the behaviour of that sub set that risks damaging the enjoyment of the rest.


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## Dusty Bin (15 Oct 2013)

Calm down everyone - they're not races - they're actually long distance time trials..


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## lukesdad (15 Oct 2013)

Dusty Bin said:


> Calm down everyone - they're not races - they're actually long distance time trials..


A long distance ride timed and the times published, you're right I believe CTT run something similar !


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## Dmcd33 (15 Oct 2013)

Clarifying what sportives are misses the point I think? If you want to race then so be it. If you want to take it easy then you can. They do disrupt certain areas of the county and not everyone plays by the rules (sound familiar to anyone- red light jumping, cars going at 75 in a 60 zone etc...) they could be reduced in numbers, but I suppose the point is the organisation that suits some people, along with the fact that it is a lot easier to meet up with people from around the country, who you wouldn't necessarily get to a Sunday ride with you without the pull of an organised event.

I think if you choose to race (I would call it push yourself) then you have a responsibility like anyone else. This includes doing 80 in the outside lane. It illegal, but everyone does it when safe to do so.


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## Rob3rt (15 Oct 2013)

Dmcd33 said:


> *Clarifying what sportives are misses the point I think?* If you want to race then so be it. If you want to take it easy then you can. They do disrupt certain areas of the county and not everyone plays by the rules (sound familiar to anyone- red light jumping, cars going at 75 in a 60 zone etc...) they could be reduced in numbers, but I suppose the point is the organisation that suits some people, along with the fact that it is a lot easier to meet up with people from around the country, who you wouldn't necessarily get to a Sunday ride with you without the pull of an organised event.
> 
> I think if you choose to race (I would call it push yourself) then you have a responsibility like anyone else. This includes doing 80 in the outside lane. It illegal, but everyone does it when safe to do so.



Does it? I don't think it does. I think clarifying what they are is necessary in order to regulate them appropriately.


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## Dmcd33 (15 Oct 2013)

Rob3rt said:


> Does it? I don't think it does. I think clarifying what they are is necessary in order to regulate them appropriately.


 
What I meant was the practicalities involved in stopping people racing in sportives. The only things that are possible to remove are the timing chips and list times at the end. Otherwise it would be impossible to stop people going over a certain speed or riding three or four abrest, therefore leaving the problems that people often complain of.

I think they have a place in cycling, but would agree that there has been an explosion of them recently, which has led to less clarity on what the are, who they are for etc..


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## Hill Wimp (15 Oct 2013)

Commercialisation of them has not helped with the image of them but has helped some of the charities such as Macmillan with the Cyclettas. That cannot be bad.I also like the fact with the Cyclettas that they run a Scooterthon for children at the same time. I don't have kids myself but it's a great idea to enable mum to cycle in her bit and the kids to do theirs plus it encourages a healthy lifestyle.

I have no doubt they will blow themselves out in 2-3 years and we can go back to the bigger Randonees etc that some of the bigger clubs have always run for anyone to enter. In a few years time there will be a thread on here "Does anyone remember the sportives?"


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## Dusty Bin (15 Oct 2013)

lukesdad said:


> A long distance ride timed and the times published, you're right I believe CTT run something similar !


Except a time trial is a competitive speed event - which is where your theory kind of falls a bit flat.


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## jowwy (15 Oct 2013)

riding/racing/pushing yourself. timing chips, start times within in a sportive is just like owning a ferrari/porsche/lamburghini etc etc

your not supposed to race or break the rules - but many many many many people do - its called life, you live by the rules or you break the rules

which one you stand by is entirelly upto the individual performing the task


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## jowwy (15 Oct 2013)

2711793 said:


> We do have laws to govern what constitutes acceptable behaviours in many areas of life and racing on public highways is one of them.


correct we do - doesn't stop people breaking those laws though does it - sportives also have rules, in which it states "this is not a race" - Job done


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## Dusty Bin (15 Oct 2013)

jowwy said:


> riding/racing/pushing yourself. timing chips, start times within in a sportive is just like owning a ferrari/porsche/lamburghini etc etc
> 
> your not supposed to race or break the rules - but many many many many people do - its called life, you live by the rules or you break the rules
> 
> which one you stand by is entirelly upto the individual performing the task



Very noble, but missing the point. The issue is not with riders thinking they are races - it is with organisers making them look like races and doing nothing to discourage it.


----------



## dellzeqq (15 Oct 2013)

I'm with DCLane and 400bhp on this.

The Wiggle Dragon Ride is inherently unsafe. What's on the risk assessment, heaven alone knows. Recceing for the South Wales FNRttC we found one junction that was so unsafe I had to re-think the route - and that was for 50 riders, none of whom were in a hurry who would have been told to signal to each other and give the people in front some room (and would have been told the error of their ways had they got it wrong). Sure enough - come the Dragon ride there was a pile-up at the junction, and, according to somebody who rode away without looking back, horrifying screams. Equally...descending over cattle grids at high speed on slick tyres is a dumbass thing to do, and yet they piled over (and, in at least one case, had a serious off), at thirty miles an hour.

One of these fine days somebody (or somebody's relatives) will take Human Race (the organisers) apart in the courts.


----------



## jowwy (15 Oct 2013)

Dusty Bin said:


> Very noble, but missing the point. The issue is not with riders thinking they are races - it is with organisers making them look like races and doing nothing to discourage it.


what can they do - let the riders tyres down, remove the computers, gps what???? people will race whether its within the confines of the rules or not - its called life


----------



## Rob3rt (15 Oct 2013)

Dusty Bin said:


> Very noble, but missing the point. *The issue is not with riders thinking they are races - it is with organisers making them look like races and doing nothing to discourage it.*



Absolutely, many make it look like a race, but then say "it is not a race" over and over again, such as to dodge the laws regarding cycle racing on the public highways. If they truly are not races (which is the case) then organisers need to stop dressing them up like a race, since this won't happen voluntarily, johnny law really ought to step in and regulate them to force the stripping away of these aspects.


----------



## jowwy (15 Oct 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> I'm with DCLane and 400bhp on this.
> 
> The Wiggle Dragon Ride is inherently unsafe. What's on the risk assessment, heaven alone knows. Recceing for the South Wales FNRttC we found one junction that was so unsafe I had to re-think the route - and that was for 50 riders, none of whom were in a hurry who would have been told to signal to each other and give the people in front some room (and would have been told the error of their ways had they got it wrong). Sure enough - come the Dragon ride there was a pile-up at the junction, and, according to somebody who rode away without looking back, horrifying screams. Equally...descending over cattle grids at high speed on slick tyres is a dumbass thing to do, and yet they piled over (and, in at least one case, had a serious off), at thirty miles an hour.
> 
> One of these fine days somebody (or somebody's relatives) will take Human Race (the organisers) apart in the courts.


pro's ride over cattle grids at break neck speeds - i know cause i have watched them do it - i also have to ride over cattle grids at high speed, cause they are on a very downhill high speed stretch of road - there's nothing that can be done about it - its upto each individual person how they ride these events/sportives/audaxes/time trials call them what you want. i'm sure on here there are plenty of club riders that go over cattle grids in groups at break neck speeds too


and i'm pretty sure its not just the Dragon Ride and Human race that do these sportives, but lets use them as arguing point cause they are well known.


----------



## Rob3rt (15 Oct 2013)

jowwy said:


> what can they do - let the riders tyres down, remove the computers, gps what???? people will race whether its within the confines of the rules or not - its called life



You can't remove the mentality from the individual, but you can strip away aspects which will offer a tangible "reward" for such behaviour!


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## jowwy (15 Oct 2013)

Rob3rt said:


> You can't remove the mentality from the individual, but you can strip away aspects which will offer a tangible "reward" for such behaviour!


so what would you strip??


----------



## Dusty Bin (15 Oct 2013)

jowwy said:


> what can they do - let the riders tyres down, remove the computers, gps what???? people will race whether its within the confines of the rules or not - its called life



Once sportive riders are on the open road, they are subject to the same highway code as all other vehicular traffic. That means waiting at junctions, stopping at red lights and generally observing the rules of the road. The same is not true within a race convoy.


----------



## dellzeqq (15 Oct 2013)

jowwy said:


> pro's riding over cattle grids at break neck speeds - i know cause i have watched them do it - i also have to ride over cattle grids at high speed, cause they are on a very downhill high stretch peice of road - there's nothing that can be done about it - its upto each individual person how they ride these events/sportives/audaxes/time trials call them what you want. i'm sure on here there are plenty of club riders that go over cattle grids in groups at break neck speeds too


you're missing the point. If I design a building I have to assess the risk. If I design a bicycle ride I have to assess the risk. In fact I use the same approach to both - prioritising elimination of the risk, and then mitigation, and, if that's not possible, highlighting the risk to those constructing and managing the building or those taking part in the ride.

And......the junction to the east of Cwmafan was an accident waiting to happen. So I took the FNRttC a different way. Human Race decided the way to mitigate the risk was to have someone waving a flag (unseen by my friend, but let's suppose it was there). A flag isn't the most eloquent of warnings, and, in this case, didn't warn people sufficiently of a traffic light round a left hand bend.

As for the cattle grids - it's perfectly possible to have a slowing down zone to mitigate the risk.

Bear in mind that these are third party risks. The person who piles around a blind corner and hits a stationary cyclist at a red light isn't simply taking a chance on (usually) his behalf. He's risking the people he slams in to.


----------



## jowwy (15 Oct 2013)

Dusty Bin said:


> Once sportive riders are on the open road, they are subject to the same highway code as all other vehicular traffic. That means waiting at junctions, stopping at red lights and generally observing the rules of the road. The same is not true within a race convoy.


so the regulations are all ready in place then - why add more


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## jowwy (15 Oct 2013)

2711830 said:


> If only life were so simple.


life can be as simple as you make it - yes there are outside mitigating circumstances that can make it difficult and beyond our personal control

bet when entering a sportive you ride it how you see it, i see it as a non race


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## Rob3rt (15 Oct 2013)

jowwy said:


> so what would you strip??



Just for sake of making a point (there are probably more eloquent ways to approach the problem), timing!


----------



## jowwy (15 Oct 2013)

Rob3rt said:


> Just for sake of making a point (there are probably more eloquent ways to approach the problem), timing!


----------



## jowwy (15 Oct 2013)

2711846 said:


> I think we all understand that you see sportives as not races. We all also know that the organisers are careful to say that they are not races. That doesn't necessarily mean that they are not races though.


they are only races for the small amount of individuals that think they are - do we know how many people that think they are races - NO

i would remove two things from sportives if it helps people think that its not a race and thats timing chips and numbers on bikes.


----------



## Dusty Bin (15 Oct 2013)

jowwy said:


> so the regulations are all ready in place then - why add more



Do you even understand what this thread is about?


----------



## jowwy (15 Oct 2013)

Dusty Bin said:


> Do you even understand what this thread is about?


yes - next question


----------



## Rob3rt (15 Oct 2013)

jowwy said:


> they are only races for the small amount of individuals that think they are - *do we know how many people that think they are races - NO*
> 
> i would remove two things from sportives if it helps people think that its not a race and thats timing chips and *numbers on bikes*.



It doesn't matter how many participants think they are taking part in races or not.

Numbers on bikes are not a problem, this allows them to record who completed and who didn't. They could then list who finished the event on their website. But with no times and no indication of finishing order they would be removing the tangible reward for the faux-racer (i.e. their name up on the internet with their time and their position, to show how many people they beat).


----------



## jowwy (15 Oct 2013)

Rob3rt said:


> It doesn't matter how many participants think they are taking part in races or not.
> 
> Numbers on bikes are not a problem, this allows them to record who completed and who didn't. They could then list who finished the event on their website. But with no times and no indication of finishing order they would be removing the tangible reward for the faux-racer (i.e. their name up on the internet with their time and their position, to show how many people they beat).


and this i would agree with Rob3rt


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## lukesdad (15 Oct 2013)

Dusty Bin said:


> Except a time trial is a competitive speed event - which is where your theory kind of falls a bit flat.


Not a race tho' eh ?


----------



## Rob3rt (15 Oct 2013)

The comparison between a sportive and a time trial is a none starter.


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (15 Oct 2013)

Rob3rt said:


> The comparison between a sportive and a time trial is a none starter.


This is cyclechat. If it doesn't fit, crowbar it in


----------



## Dusty Bin (15 Oct 2013)

lukesdad said:


> Not a race tho' eh ?



It's a race, because it is a test of speed over a defined distance, with the objective of establishing a winner. We are not here to debate whether TTs are races, because they patently are - they're just not 'bunch' races. What exactly is your point anyway?


----------



## potsy (15 Oct 2013)

TT rider






Sportive rider


----------



## lukesdad (15 Oct 2013)

A time trial ? Oh I see there is only one type of time trial... Silly me.


----------



## jowwy (15 Oct 2013)

potsy said:


> TT rider - Professional Racer on closed roads
> 
> 
> 
> ...


FTFY


----------



## Rob3rt (15 Oct 2013)

jowwy said:


> FTFY



Like a stone.....


----------



## jowwy (15 Oct 2013)

Rob3rt said:


> Like a stone.....


like you said the two aren't comparable


----------



## Rob3rt (15 Oct 2013)




----------



## lukesdad (15 Oct 2013)

Dusty Bin said:


> It's a race, because it is a test of speed over a defined distance, with the objective of establishing a winner. We are not here to debate whether TTs are races, because they patently are - they're just not 'bunch' races. What exactly is your point anyway?


My point is get on with what you do and let them get on with what they do. Simples.


----------



## Dusty Bin (15 Oct 2013)

lukesdad said:


> My point is get on with what you do and let them get on with what they do. Simples.



What a revelation. Thanks for that.


----------



## Dusty Bin (15 Oct 2013)

lukesdad said:


> A time trial ? Oh I see there is only one type of time trial... Silly me.



Go on then, I'll bite - what other types of 'time trial' are there?


----------



## Tim Hall (15 Oct 2013)

jowwy said:


> pro's ride over cattle grids at break neck speeds - i know cause i have watched them do it - i also have to ride over cattle grids at high speed, cause they are on a very downhill high speed stretch of road - *there's nothing that can be done about it* - its upto each individual person how they ride these events/sportives/audaxes/time trials call them what you want.



No brakes on your bike?


----------



## User6179 (15 Oct 2013)

11 pages and I do not think I have read what the problem is with sportives even if some of the riders are racing !?


----------



## Puddles (15 Oct 2013)

Peoples... What are they? Sportives, I mean, what do you do on one? I am assuming it is more involved than a few people cycling around chatting & waving at each other?

Yes, I am being serious what is a Sportive? and for that matter what is an Audax? and is a TT done on a road or in one of the velo stadium type thingies?


----------



## Dusty Bin (15 Oct 2013)

Eddy said:


> 11 pages and I do not think I have read what the problem is with sportives even if some of the riders are racing !?


Several problems, judging by some of the more coherent posts on the thread. Unfortunatly, lukesdad seems to have missed the OP's request to 'discuss sensibly'...


----------



## Dusty Bin (15 Oct 2013)

Puddles said:


> Peoples... What are they? Sportives, I mean, what do you do on one? I am assuming it is more involved than a few people cycling around chatting & waving at each other?
> 
> Yes, I am being serious what is a Sportive? and for that matter what is an Audax? and is a TT done on a road or in one of the velo stadium type thingies?


 Can you not just google the terms - or start another thread?


----------



## User6179 (15 Oct 2013)

Puddles said:


> Peoples... What are they? Sportives, I mean, what do you do on one? I am assuming it is more involved than a few people cycling around chatting & waving at each other?
> 
> Yes, I am being serious what is a Sportive? and for that matter what is an Audax? and is a TT done on a road or in one of the velo stadium type thingies?


 

A sportive is a non competitive competition between non racing cyclists racing each other , hope that helps


----------



## Berties (15 Oct 2013)

sportive,tt or audax all should have care and consideration for each other ,other road users,animals on the road and verges as in the new forest,respect for local residents and don't litter,we all look at average times speeds etc and will compare to others,its part of being competitive,yes its not a race,but if the average is 14 for the course for a 100km audax i would aim for more for a good time ,still staying safe and considering road conditions


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## lukesdad (15 Oct 2013)

Dusty Bin said:


> Go on then, I'll bite - what other types of 'time trial' are there?


We'll start with a hill climb shall we ?FFS it's a time trial!


----------



## lukesdad (15 Oct 2013)

Rob3rt said:


> The comparison between a sportive and a time trial is a none starter.


If you test yourself against the clock it becomes a time trial,if you test yourself against the clock in a sportive the same applies. What part of that do you not understand?


----------



## Rob3rt (15 Oct 2013)

lukesdad said:


> If you test yourself against the clock it becomes a time trial,if you test yourself against the clock in a sportive the same applies. What part of that do you not understand?



The part where you equated a sportive to a time trial!


----------



## lukesdad (15 Oct 2013)

...an. Mtb downhill is a time trial....


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## lukesdad (15 Oct 2013)

For the majority of riders in a sportive it's a test against the clock, to them it's a time trial, maybe not as you may envisage one but its still a time trial none the less.


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## phil_hg_uk (15 Oct 2013)

Its all about how quickly you can get from one feed stop to the next


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## Puddles (15 Oct 2013)

Eddy said:


> A sportive is a non competitive competition between non racing cyclists racing each other , hope that helps



Thank you that makes perfect sense, sounds to me like they are out of control with that description 



Dusty Bin said:


> Can you not just google the terms - or start another thread?



Oh sorry I would have done had I realised that it would offend your delicate sensibilities.

Your sunglasses are on your head aren't they?


----------



## Fab Foodie (15 Oct 2013)

lukesdad said:


> ...an. Mtb downhill is a time trial....


This thread's becoming a time trial ....


----------



## Hill Wimp (15 Oct 2013)

Fab Foodie said:


> This thread's becoming a time trial ....


----------



## Rob3rt (15 Oct 2013)

This thread is no more testing than the endless supply of back patting threads!


----------



## 400bhp (15 Oct 2013)

jowwy said:


> they are only races for the *small amount of individuals that think they are* - do we know how many people that think they are races - NO
> 
> i would remove two things from sportives if it helps people think that its not a race and thats timing chips and numbers on bikes.



Nope-most think they are. Have a look in most of the sportive threads and it's "I completed it in this time".

Openly many may not think they are races but subconsciously they clearly do.


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## 400bhp (15 Oct 2013)

Dusty Bin said:


> Several problems, judging by some of the more coherent posts on the thread. *Unfortunatly, lukesdad seems to have missed the OP's request to 'discuss sensibly*'...



Are you surprised?


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## jowwy (15 Oct 2013)

400bhp said:


> Nope-most think they are. Have a look in most of the sportive threads and it's "I completed it in this time".
> 
> Openly many may not think they are races but subconsciously they clearly do.


They did it in a time, but they didnt ask or state what position they came in as its not a race.


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## 400bhp (15 Oct 2013)

Look again.


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## Dusty Bin (15 Oct 2013)

Puddles said:


> Oh sorry I would have done had I realised that it would offend your delicate sensibilities.



Well, it clearly offended yours, hence your reply. Just google it.


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## Dusty Bin (15 Oct 2013)

lukesdad said:


> We'll start with a hill climb shall we ?FFS it's a time trial!



Yes, I think most people get that already and I'm suprised you felt the need to point it out. I don't think anyone here thinks that TTs are only ridden on flat roads. Anything ridden against the clock is a time trial - up down, road, mtb, whatever. Sportives, however, are not time trials, because time trials (of any sort) are races - and sportives aren't (races, that is). I'm pretty sure that's been said already. The objective of a TT is to be the fastest, which is why it's a race. The objective of a sportive is to complete the course within a generous time allowance - which is why it is not a race. Just because some people choose to ride sportives as fast as they can does not make them races. 

The fact that you feel it is necessary to point out stuff that most people already take for granted is a bit odd. This was a good, interesting, progressive discussion until you turned up.


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## Dmcd33 (16 Oct 2013)

Just a thought. Would removing the timing chips and bike numbers greatly reduce the number of people trying to get around in a specific time? if it were me I would just put strava on and check my time afterwards. It would take the responsibility away from the organiser and put it with the rider? Still going to have people Racing/pushing it.

I have done 5 Sportives this year and witnessed no issues at all with poor behaviour.


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## Rob3rt (16 Oct 2013)

Dmcd33 said:


> Just a thought. Would removing the timing chips and bike numbers greatly reduce the number of people trying to get around in a specific time? if it were me I would just put strava on and check my time afterwards. It would take the responsibility away from the organiser and put it with the rider? Still going to have people Racing/pushing it.
> 
> I have done 5 Sportives this year and witnessed no issues at all with poor behaviour.



People would be able to track via Strava and some would still "race", however the sportive organiser would no longer be promoting this behaviour or perpetuating it, by providing a reward such as leader boards etc. No one can stop you timing yourself, but if everyone is timing themselves, comparing results becomes a lot harder therefore the competitive element is reduced.

Rather alarmingly, I have just seen on another forum this morning a thread about a sportive organised that is actually giving prizes to the fastest riders. How they can claim this is not a race and avoid the laws regarding racing on the highways is rather baffling, "Prizes for the fastest riders, but remember, it is NOT a race" erm...


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## Dmcd33 (16 Oct 2013)

Rob3rt said:


> People would be able to track via Strava and some would still "race", however the sportive organiser would no longer be promoting this behaviour or perpetuating it, by providing a reward such as leader boards etc. No one can stop you timing yourself, but if everyone is timing themselves then comparing results becomes a lot harder therefore the competitive element is reduced.
> 
> Rather alarmingly, I have just seen on another forum this morning a thread about, a sportive organised that is actually giving prizes to the fastest riders. How they can claim this is not a race and avoid the laws regarding racing on the highways is rather baffling, "Prizes for the fastest riders, but remember, it is NOT a race" erm...


 

Giving prizes for the fastest promotes dangerous cycling. This should be kept to closed roads, tracks etc..


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## Rob3rt (16 Oct 2013)

Dmcd33 said:


> Giving prizes for the fastest promotes dangerous cycling. This should be kept to closed roads, tracks etc..



Most racing in the UK is done on the open roads, whether that racing is time trials or bunch races such as road racing. These events have winners and prizes and are highly competitive. Racing does inherently increase risk, more so for some individuals than others, however there are laws that govern such events in order to mitigate such risks. 

As much as I do love racing on a closed road, I don't think racing should be confined to only being carried out on closed roads, I think current regulation and new schemes such as the BC Accredited marshal scheme are making sufficient strides to maintain and increase safety in such events. In 40 or so races this year that I have taken part in on the open roads, I know of only 1 accident, a rider came off on a bend, he was riding solo, there was no outside interference, no-one else involved in the incident, arguably he wouldn't have crashed had he not been pushing hard during a race, but that is 1 rider, in 40 events, of which each will have had at least 50 participants. So 1 in about 2000. Probably quite a bit less when you factor in some of the events had over 100 participants.

I am not arguing anti-sportive, I am arguing that there should be equivalent legislation surrounding sportives as there are road racing or other mass start competative events.


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