# Kinetics Brompton Rohloff kit?



## rafiki (4 Mar 2020)

Has anyone here bought a Kinetics Brompton Rohloff kit and fitted it themselves?


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## Pale Rider (4 Mar 2020)

A couple of members have Rohloff Bromptons - not sure if they are still with us.

While I'm on, have you considered the Alfine 11?

Much cheaper, and it has recently been beefed up so no worries about reliability.

Electronic shifting as well, as @JhnBssll could explain.

I've had/ have had both on ebikes.

The Rohloff has a better range, but I reckon the Alfine 11 would be more than adequate and sturdy enough for a Brommie.


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## Cycleops (4 Mar 2020)

Plus you can keep both kidneys


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## rafiki (4 Mar 2020)

Thanks. I haven't looked at the Alfine. I have a Rohloff hub on my Thorn Sterling MTB and like it a lot so haven't been looking elsewhere but I will now you mention it.

I'm interested in chatting to anyone who has fitted the Kinetics kit. The rear triangle looks simple enough to replace and I am confident with the Rohloff setup as I recently replaced the shifter and cables on my Thorn Rohloff without problems. Kinetics mention they sometimes have problems unfastening the hinge bolts but I tried mine and they are not stuck.


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## Pale Rider (4 Mar 2020)

I can't help with the kit, but contact with Kinetics is a bit hit and miss.

Nothing dodgy, it's just they don't always answer emails, sometimes for weeks.

I see there's a note on the website saying the owner will be 'away from the shop' for a couple of weeks.

You being in Spain could add up to a difficult transaction.


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## rafiki (4 Mar 2020)

Yes, I am in contact with them but getting more detail has been slow hence my quest for first hand experience.


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## Pale Rider (4 Mar 2020)

Hopefully someone will be along to help.

In the meantime, I was interested to read you have a Rohloff on an MTB.

The original Herr Rohloff designed the hub because he was doing what we would now call mountain biking and got fed up with smashing derailers.

That's why he made the hub so robust, to the point of being agricultural.

It was designed to be thrashed in adverse conditions.


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## rafiki (4 Mar 2020)

I've had this one for about 10 years. In fact Thorn stopped making an MTB a few years ago but continue to fit them to their tourers. Just last year I took my wheel to Bridgwater and SJS replaced the oil seals, one of which had begun to leak quite noticeably. At my age, these days, I don't thrash anything but I do appreciate fine engineering and the Rohloff is way up there. It is used daily and has never let me down.


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## Cycleops (4 Mar 2020)

I have a 8 speed Alfine hub on my folding kiddywheeler and it suits me fine.


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## Threevok (4 Mar 2020)

I was considering a Rohloff, when first building my current (single-speed) MTB

My mate had one on his Charge Duster, which (for him) was easier than going down the single-speed route, plus he got to keep gears

Had I gone for a frame with vertical dropouts, I think I would have done the same.


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## Pale Rider (4 Mar 2020)

rafiki said:


> I've had this one for about 10 years. In fact Thorn stopped making an MTB a few years ago but continue to fit them to their tourers. Just last year I took my wheel to Bridgwater and SJS replaced the oil seals, one of which had begun to leak quite noticeably. At my age, these days, I don't thrash anything but I do appreciate fine engineering and the Rohloff is way up there. It is used daily and has never let me down.



The seals are designed to be slightly porous.

Some stories of Rohloffs seeping oil in aircraft holds.

Rohloff point out you can run the hub 'without oil' because even after draining, there's still a coating left on the moving parts.


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## oldwheels (4 Mar 2020)

Pale Rider said:


> I can't help with the kit, but contact with Kinetics is a bit hit and miss.
> 
> Nothing dodgy, it's just they don't always answer emails, sometimes for weeks.
> 
> ...


I find Ben ok on a face to face basis but he does tend to be a bit eccentric. I don’t think he is in any way dodgy but is an interesting character. He fell out with Brompton as he was very critical of some of their engineering and cannot sell conventional Bromptons but seems to get them to convert in interesting ways.
My last purchase was an Ice Recumbent and I found him fair to deal with.


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## Pale Rider (4 Mar 2020)

He's not the first to fall out with Brompton.

The owner of Spa Cycles did, although he could have a fall out in an empty room.

Brompton also refuse to supply bikes to Nano for their ebike kit.

You can understand that in a way, except Nano were doing kits for years while Brompton faffed around trying to get a factory one to market.


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## berlinonaut (4 Mar 2020)

rafiki said:


> I'm interested in chatting to anyone who has fitted the Kinetics kit. The rear triangle looks simple enough to replace and I am confident with the Rohloff setup as I recently replaced the shifter and cables on my Thorn Rohloff without problems. Kinetics mention they sometimes have problems unfastening the hinge bolts but I tried mine and they are not stuck.


I do not own a Kinetic Rohloff Brompton but I have ridden one. The bike was converted by Ben in his workshop and the owner is very happy with it - it also has the front fork and disk brakes. I consider the rear triangle good engineering (personally I'd go for the version with integrated rack but that's a matter of taste) and would assume the swap is not different from an ordinary swap of the rear triangle or a change of the rear hinge bolt. It is however a bit of an expert job.

Regarding the Rohloff on the Brommi: I do own a couple of bikes with a Rohloff hub and this is for a reason. The thing is bullet proof, close to maintenance free and never let me down. And for me clearly the best of all geared hubs currently available, avoiding the downsides of derailleur setups while being almost as efficient. For the Brommi however I considered it to be an overdose (and to a degree still do). Just that I do not like the alternatives too much including the Alfine 11. So in the meantime I own a Rohloff Brompton, too. It is definitively a bit of an overdose as I never needed the lowest gears until today (which obviously depends from the terrain you are riding), it is expensive, it is heavy and my 2-speed is way faster and much lighter, so I clearly prefer it in everyday life and for my commute. But for a touring setup I'd consider the Rohloff a good choice. Not necessary and a bit of a luxury, but hey. Typically with 50/13 or 54/13.

Regarding the sourcing: Ben is a bit famous for deadlines and delivery times passing by. I've never dealt with him personally but have heard endless stories from people who have. But he is a honest and nice guy as people agree and the things he makes are solid and good work. Just that it may take a loooooong time until your order is done - he is a one man band and has a lot of work, so things are not always running smoothly in regards of communication and time scheduling. So possibly it helps to be a _very_ relaxed person to deal with him.  Other than that you can buy his rear triangele from SJS as well - they do sell Kinetics parts. Stock and color vary but they are usually delivering fast if they have the desired item in stock.
There is also a ti-triangle for the Rohloff available from Vostok, in case you want to go for alternatives.


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## rafiki (5 Mar 2020)

Pale Rider said:


> The seals are designed to be slightly porous.
> 
> Some stories of Rohloffs seeping oil in aircraft holds.
> 
> Rohloff point out you can run the hub 'without oil' because even after draining, there's still a coating left on the moving parts.



Yes, mine oozed a little for years. Early last year when it began to drip it was time to act, if only to stop the mess! (Not overfilled, I always put only 15ml Rohloff oil in during a change.)


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## Pale Rider (5 Mar 2020)

rafiki said:


> Yes, mine oozed a little for years. Early last year when it began to drip it was time to act, if only to stop the mess! (Not overfilled, I always put only 15ml Rohloff oil in during a change.)



Same here.

If I hammer down a gravel track, fine particles cover the hub, stuck to it by a mist of oil.

It is a beautifully engineered piece of kit.

As an example, the little filler plug has a conical taper on it to make it almost impossible to cross thread, unlike the Shimano ones which are chopped off square.


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## rafiki (6 Mar 2020)

I'm thinking about the gearing for the Brompton conversion. The first thing I had to do was learn how to do the calculation! My Thorn Rohloff-equipped MTB has a 44T chainring and 16T sprocket. It's a 26" wheel. This gives about 71 gear inches. The gearing is just right for my normal daily rides. A standard 50T chainring on a Brompton with a 13T sprocket gives 61 gear inches. If I specified a 54T chainring that would still give only 66 gear inches. To achieve similar gearing to the Thorn I would need a 58T chainring on the Brompton. My question is this: between two very dissimilar bikes such as these will 71 gear inches feel the same on each or are there other forces in play?


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## Kell (6 Mar 2020)

There are other forces at play. 

Shorter crankarms means that pushing bigger ratios is more difficult. 

The position of your knee over the pedals will be different too. 

The upright position means aero will slow you down so you might not need such high gearing.

These last two are pretty much linked. 

Factory supplied Bromptons all seem to have the seat pushed as far forward on the rails as it will go. 







This obviously means that you sit more upright. And it means that your knees are at least somewhere close to the optimum point of being directly above your pedal spindle when that pedal is at its foremost point. (Although I found mine were still behind by some margin.)






Pushing the seat back makes you slightly more aero, but takes your knees further away from the ideal.

Maintaining speed is harder on a Brommie too due to less momentum of smaller wheels. So you have to keep pedaling way more than you would on a road bike.


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## rafiki (6 Mar 2020)

Much food for thought there. I will have a look at both bikes as I have set them up for me and compare with the above in mind. the Thorn used to be 39/16 but I found that to be too low by about 1 Rohloff gear. Changing to 44/16 put that right. I guess there will be some trial and error with the conversion. Thanks very much for your input.

Edit: I just checked and both bikes have 170 mm cranks.


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## Pale Rider (6 Mar 2020)

The Rohloff has a famously wide range so it ought to look after you even if the front or back gearing is less than optimum.

Gearing range on small wheeled bikes does seem to be a problem.

My view is Brompton tend to sacrifice a low enough bottom gear to give a high enough top.


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## 12boy (6 Mar 2020)

Kinda with Kell on this....My Brompton with 58/13 chain ring and sprocket is 71.7and my Surly Steamroller with 48/18 is 72.5. I feel overall effort is similar but the B accelerates and loses momentum more quickly and is more sensitive to uneven, broken surfaces. The Steamroller accelerates more slowly but holds speed more easily. The handling is very different as well. So, they are very similar in effort once underway but the riding experience is very different. I enjoy both equally.


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## rafiki (6 Mar 2020)

12boy said:


> Kinda with Kell on this....My Brompton with 58/13 chain ring and sprocket is 71.7and my Surly Steamroller with 48/18 is 72.5. I feel overall effort is similar but the B accelerates and loses momentum more quickly and is more sensitive to uneven, broken surfaces. The Steamroller accelerates more slowly but holds speed more easily. The handling is very different as well. So, they are very similar in effort once underway but the riding experience is very different. I enjoy both equally.



Good to know. Thank you.


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## rafiki (6 Mar 2020)

Pale Rider said:


> The Rohloff has a famously wide range so it ought to look after you even if the front or back gearing is less than optimum.
> 
> Gearing range on small wheeled bikes does seem to be a problem.
> 
> My view is Brompton tend to sacrifice a low enough bottom gear to give a high enough top.



I love my Bromton bike but I find the gear changing a pain, literally. I have mild arthritis in both thumbs so I tend to plan gear changes carefully to avoid any unnecessary movements. My old 1994 Dawes Mean Street XT hybrid had lovely Shimano XT Rapidfire shifters but I changed them last year for cheap and cheerful twist shifters which made life a lot more comfortable. I am looking forward to the Rohloff shifter on the Brompton, I have no problems with it on the Thorn.


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## Pale Rider (6 Mar 2020)

What do you make of the Rohloff shifter in comparison to the Shimano?

I have both on bikes and find the Shimano a bit better.


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## rafiki (6 Mar 2020)

The newer Rohloff 'Wave' shifter is better than the old Rohloff triangular shifter I think. Both can be a bit clunky as you probably know but one gets used to that. Keeping the shifter and Ex Box well lubricated helps a lot of course. The Shimano derailleur XT Rapidfire ST-M738 3x8 shifter combo was very slick and very fast. It was very well made. I was sad when I needed to change it for twist grips.


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## Pale Rider (6 Mar 2020)

A bit clunky is how I would describe the Rohloff shifter.

Sounds like I may have an older one.

Much as I like the hub, that is one of the few minor negatives.


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## rafiki (6 Mar 2020)

The older model had raised embossed, rubber, unpainted numbers (which wear off).The newer shifter has indented, painted numbers (which still wear off). I just got accustomed to 'clunky' and don't think about it anymore. Probably easy for me as I drive an older Land Rover Defender! Now *that* is clunky...


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## Nibor (6 Mar 2020)

@Rohloff_Brompton_Rider


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## rafiki (6 Mar 2020)

Nibor said:


> @Rohloff_Brompton_Rider


I saw his posts about his bike and have messaged him but we haven't connected yet.


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## Nibor (6 Mar 2020)

I have met him and he seemed very happy with his ( it was a while ago though)


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## Pale Rider (6 Mar 2020)

rafiki said:


> The older model had raised embossed, rubber, unpainted numbers (which wear off).The newer shifter has indented, painted numbers (which still wear off). I just got accustomed to 'clunky' and don't think about it anymore. Probably easy for me as I drive an older Land Rover Defender! Now *that* is clunky...



Yes, my numbers wore off quite quickly.

I've put a couple of blobs of paint on the shifter.

The little blob is low gear and the big blob is about in the middle.

I used to glance at the numbers, although it's fair to say you couldn't if riding in the dark.

A few reports of the shifter failing.

It probably is the weakest link of a Rohloff installation.


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## u_i (6 Mar 2020)

Pale Rider said:


> Yes, my numbers wore off quite quickly.
> 
> I've put a couple of blobs of paint on the shifter.
> 
> ...



I glue neoprene pieces on twist shifters, both the moving and fixed parts, that I can feel with fingers in the dark.


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## Schwinnsta (6 Mar 2020)

The reason for less speed on smaller wheels is that they are more jarring and ride harsher due to their smaller attack angle. These jolts are absorbed by the rider. The rider becomes the shock absorber with jarring energy dissipated in friction within the body.


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## berlinonaut (7 Mar 2020)

rafiki said:


> I'm thinking about the gearing for the Brompton conversion. The first thing I had to do was learn how to do the calculation! My Thorn Rohloff-equipped MTB has a 44T chainring and 13T sprocket. It's a 26" wheel. This gives about 71 gear inches. The gearing is just right for my normal daily rides. A standard 50T chainring on a Brompton with a 13T sprocket gives 61 gear inches. If I specified a 54T chainring that would still give only 66 gear inches. To achieve similar gearing to the Thorn I would need a 58T chainring on the Brompton. My question is this: between two very dissimilar bikes such as these will 71 gear inches feel the same on each or are there other forces in play?


My thoughts go as follows:
- you are set on the wheel size
- you are basically set on the 13t sprocket (to achieve a usable development with 349 size wheels)
- so your only variable is the size of the chainring.

The Rohloff's direct gear is the 11th, though there's no real relevant difference in drag between the gears. Still it seems a good idea trying to have the 11th (or close to it) as the standard gear for your typical riding in the flat (als you then have enough room to go higher with three more gears and massive to go lower when it get's hilly). The lower end is not really a problem with the Rohloff on a Brompton - it will basically always be short enough in real life. I'd try to avoid the 7th for typical riding as it is the noisiest gear.
So, depending from your typical speed and your typical favorite cadence you can find the appropriate size of the chainwheel. I use ritzelrechner for that where you have a lot of vaiables, a good visiualization and you can compare two different setups, too: https://ritzelrechner.de/?GR=RLSH&K...DV=gearInches&GR2=RLSH&KB2=54&RZ2=13&UF2=1330

Here I set the cadence to 75rpm (which is about my personal standard, your's may be different) and as I rather use meters of development than gear inches I created two screenshots:






Here we go with meters of development and km/h for the same setup:






Following the 11th gear rule I'd have to go to something like a 60t chainring to align my typical speed and cadence for the Brommi (in the sense to have my favorite meters of development in 11th). In reality I am running the 50t quite happily at the moment but consider to go a little higher (but not as high as 60t, maybe 54) longterm. Just that it would be a bigger operation as I currently run the old bottom bracket along with the old fixed chainwheel on that bike and a change is not urgent, so I avoid all that hassle for the time being.  With 60t my highest gear would be ridiculously high as well - I'd never use it. To have some reserve for a real steep ascent seems more reasonabe to me.


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## rafiki (7 Mar 2020)

What a great resource, thank you for that. For the new conversion my hunch is to go for 54/13 and then play it by ear from there. 

I haven't asked Kinetics yet but a new Rohloff hub is supplied with a default 16T sprocket. I preume they order their stock with the 13T option.

BTW my Thorn MTB setup is 44/16 not 44/13 as I originally posted. I have corrected the typo.


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## rafiki (9 Apr 2020)

Well the Rohloff kit arrived with some delays but that was to be expected. I had a little trouble removing one of the rear triangle hinge bolts but with Kinetics advice and a mini butane torch it came away cleanly. Refitting the rear carrier to the new triangle needed a bit of fiddling but it went on fine eventually. No problems with the Rohloff shifter and cabling. Even that dreaded ex box pulley wound on and inserted with only a few swear words. We are in a severe lockdown in Spain so I can't take it out to test it properly yet which is very frustrating but it looks good. Running it up on the stand it seems to work fine but we'll see when we are released. 

I haven't decided what to do about the grips. The brake lever has a large protrusion for mounting the useless bell and prevents further movement to the left and the Rohloff shifter takes up so much space there is only 60 mm left for the grip which isn't enough. I'm looking at three options to make more space. I could grind off the bell support bulge thus clearing the way but that could be messy/unsightly or I could purchase a pair of replacement levers without any hindering protrusions or, perhaps, purchase a third party H bar with a greater width although I'd have to watch the fold.


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## berlinonaut (9 Apr 2020)

rafiki said:


> watch the fold.


Not particularily useful for your problem, but this could be a great marketing claim for Brompton


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## rafiki (9 Apr 2020)

berlinonaut said:


> Not particularily useful for your problem, but this could be a great marketing claim for Brompton



It's a 'flight check' I guess every Brompton owner gets imprinted on their subconscious after doing a mod or two then going back to the drawing board!  Fitting the Quad Lock to the bar to hold my phone/GPS took some trial and error.


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## rafiki (10 Apr 2020)

I've worked out a couple of ideas for the grips/Rohloff shifter with the help of the guys at SJS Cycles. The first and easier is to buy a SRAM 'shorty' grip for the right hand bar and a matching 110 mm grip for the left. The shorty is 60 mm which is the exact length I have to fill so it remains to be seen if that short length works well with the shifter. The grips are cheap so worth a try. If that doesn't feel right I shall get a Joseph Kuosac mid-riser bar and replace the original. I'll lose about 20 mm height but I don't think that will be a problem. The JK is 600 mm wide giving me an extra 40 mm space on each side.
It may need trimming a bit if the fold catches the floor but I have a rack and Eazy wheels which they think gives enough room.


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## 12boy (10 Apr 2020)

That bike is way too pristine.​


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## rafiki (10 Apr 2020)

For the moment it is. We are in total lockdown here in Spain until at least the end of this month and probably mid-May. We have already been confined for a month! Nothing would give me greater pleasure than to dirty it up! I still have bookings to ride it on the Camino de Santiago - Camino Frances in northern Spain at the end of May. 350 km over 6 days from León to Santiago de Compostela but as the weeks pass with this damned virus it looks less and less likely to happen. I envy those who are allowed out each day to exercise but not us I'm afraid.


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## 12boy (11 Apr 2020)

I feel bad for mentioning it. As soon as I do something to my bike I've gotta try it out.


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## rafiki (11 Apr 2020)

Oh, please don't feel bad, what we are going through is very necessary and beginning to show results. The infection and death rates are on an encouraging downward trend in Spain. I have to be careful because, at 75 years of age, I am well into the high risk population. I am more fortunate than most as limited dog walking is permitted so I can walk my three pooches three times a day but only close to the house. I hope at the end of the month some of the restrictions will be lifted so that I can at least cycle out into the countryside and take the dogs into the forest but we shall see.


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## Gunk (11 Apr 2020)

rafiki said:


> I've worked out a couple of ideas for the grips/Rohloff shifter with the help of the guys at SJS Cycles. The first and easier is to buy a SRAM 'shorty' grip for the right hand bar and a matching 110 mm grip for the left. The shorty is 60 mm which is the exact length I have to fill so it remains to be seen if that short length works well with the shifter. The grips are cheap so worth a try. If that doesn't feel right I shall get a Joseph Kuosac mid-riser bar and replace the original. I'll lose about 20 mm height but I don't think that will be a problem. The JK is 600 mm wide giving me an extra 40 mm space on each side.
> It may need trimming a bit if the fold catches the floor but I have a rack and Eazy wheels which they think gives enough room.
> 
> View attachment 514061



That is beautifully engineered bit of kit (but it should be for the price 😮) It is however a lot of an additional weight, Is the trade off worth it?


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## rafiki (11 Apr 2020)

800 grammes allegedly. I have had a Rohloff hub on my Thorn Sterling MTB for 10 years and I love it. Having ridden the Brompton from new on tarmac and gravel in standard 6 speed format I really didn't like the gear system and decided quite quickly I wanted a Rohloff on that too.


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## Gunk (25 Apr 2020)

This has been really interesting and you’ve got me really thinking about future upgrades to my 2001 Brompton, I’ve pouring over the Kinetics website and I really fancy the 8 speed Alfine conversion with a dynamo front wheel. I would have the crankset changed at the same time for new spider version with a sealed JIS BB. For bombing around Oxford that would be a perfect bike, with the older tatty frame it wouldn’t draw attention to itself.

It would essentially look exactly as it does now.


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## rafiki (25 Apr 2020)

It looks very presentable to me. The Alfine sounds like a good plan.


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## PaulM (25 Apr 2020)

I had the kinetics sturmey archer 8-speed kit on mine. It worked well, 325% of gear range with a 1st gear direct drive. I don't have any Alfine 8 experience so I can't compare the feel and shifting. I always paused when down shifting and soft pedalled when upshifting. 4th gear was initally noisy but quietened down with use.


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## Gunk (25 Apr 2020)

rafiki said:


> It looks very presentable to me. The Alfine sounds like a good plan.



It is a very nice bike and great to ride, however it is slightly limited to city hopping with the original Sturmey Archer hub, plus they are the original 19 year old wheels. There is nothing wrong with it but it would transform it into a much more modern and flexible bike, plus it would just be something a little bit different.


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## rafiki (25 Apr 2020)

I know what you mean. On the very limited opportunities I have had to ride my Brompton Rohloff (short shopping trips allowed) since I built it it is much different from the original, more lively and smoother. Can't wait for this lockdown to be eased so i can take it for a good test ride . It's been two months now and it will be a least another two weeks but even then it's not definite it will be relaxed.


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## flake99please (25 Apr 2020)

Have you had any issues (breakages) with the rear wheel spokes since fitting the Rohloff?


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## rafiki (25 Apr 2020)

I haven't, but, as I say, I have not been allowed out to try it very much yet.

EDIT: I just heard - so long as the Covid statistics continue to improve we will be free to go for walks, exercise and sports from 2nd May. Whoopeee!


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## rualexander (25 Apr 2020)

I was interested to notice recently that Ben at Kinetics has now got a Brompton/Rohloff conversion using the original Bromton rear triangle which he has presumably widened and otherwise modified to accept the Rohloff hub.
Don't know for sure, but it must be a cheaper conversion than his existing stainless steel custom Rohloff/Alfine rear triangles.
The one in the instagram post below has the titanium triangle but presumably available with standard steel one also.

View: https://www.instagram.com/p/B-6eXTOAznw/?igshid=tkuy44q4ecje


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## rafiki (25 Apr 2020)

Ben doesn't make a titanium rear triangle for Rohloffs so I guess it's attractive for those who already have a Ti rear triangle and want to keep it. As he says the Brompton doesn't have the torque arm that his ss triangle has and, of course, the original dropouts have been modified.


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## rualexander (4 May 2020)

I noticed that Ben at Kinetics is now doing Brompton conversions using the Kindernay 14 speed hub.


View: https://www.instagram.com/p/B_xmSrmDjP5/?igshid=418bib8uxkk7



View: https://www.instagram.com/p/B_r_v0JFGvH/?igshid=1ltqptgezpjjq



View: https://www.instagram.com/p/B_rhnXHgmup/?igshid=12o9mzbi0ac1q


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## rafiki (5 May 2020)

Ben mentioned this in a Twitter post this morning. IHG comparisons. Despite being able to transfer the hub between bikes the Kindernay is not as simple as it sounds.


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## CopperBrompton (31 May 2020)

I adore my Rohloff Brompton. Next-to-stepless changes, no adjustment ever needed, next to maintenance-free.


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## MrM83 (4 Aug 2022)

I realise this thread is a couple of years old but in case anyone was considering a Rohloff hub I thought it might be useful to put my experiences in here.

I purchased my Brompton from Fudge Cycles in London in 2011 which was sold new with a widened factory rear triangle and fitted with an Alfine 11 hub. On testing this bike vs standard models at the time, it was an easy sell given the gear range the Alfine 11 offered and the gear shift was incredibly sweet. However, as I recall, I had issues from the start with the hub leaking oil from seals and returned it to Fudge's who ended up building a new wheel with a new hub in it. As I got used to the bike I enjoyed the 11, but as a package it felt underbraked to me.....

And so I stumbled across Kinetics in 2012 and the disc brake solutions Ben was offering online. I ordered up a new front fork and rear triangle, together with 160mm Hope discs and levers that he was offering at the time. It was a relatively simple job to switch out the parts and I was up and running. The Hope brake setup is nothing short of phenomenal and, frankly, transforms the bike. Their customer support when I have needed it is also truly awesome. 

After putting a couple of thousand km on the bike and as I rode the bike more I found I craved more speed. I barely had need to use gears 1-6 on the Afline 11 (standard 54T chainring and as small as I could fit on the Alfine 11, I think 13T from memory), which seemed something of a waste. Anyhow, it wasnt long before the Alfine started crunching a bit and playing up. I cant remember the exact circumstances, but I read that the Alfine 8 was more reliable so had a wheel built and trialed this setup for a bit to see if it was any more versatile. The hub felt more robust, gear changes were great, but again, on flat London cycle highways, I was missing the top end speed, so ended up going back to the 11. Things didnt get better with regards to the 11, I moved house and the Brompton wasnt needed for a while....

I came back to it recently and gave it some TLC including an oil change for the hub. In the time it had sat largely unused the hub seems to have become "sticky" and there feels a lot more resistance when pedaling. As I learned, there is no servicing to be done on the 11 beyond the oil change. When freewheeling the cranks turn, which they never used to. It didnt feel like I remembered it. I swapped back to the 8 which felt much more free, but same old speed issue. 

So I bit the bullet recently and ordered a Rohloff wheel from Ben, together with a few other upgrade bits to modernise the old girl as I decided to use the bike for part of my commute post COVID. I wasnt sure if the outlay would be worth it but I felt I was in for a penny, in for a pound on this journey. The kit arrived, Ben's workmanship is second to none and a few nights tinkering had me up and running. He had to make me a bespoke speedbone to fit the Rohloff as I apparently had an early Alfine prototype rear triangle of his. To his credit, he had kept an example and the kit fitted easily. I cant praise his work enough.

Ive probably now done a hundred or so km on the Rohloff and its been good. Top end gearing and speed (54T/13T) feels on par with the Alfine 11, maybe a little more at top end. I have to admit, I dont like the grip shift as much as thumb shifters. It takes more effort to change gear. The movement doesnt feel as natural and convenient to me, but I appreciate the simplicity of the gripshift which seems part of the Rohloff mantra. 

But you guessed it, I'd want more speed. I find myself using gears 9-14 on the Rohloff for 99% of the time. I have a couple of mild inclines on my commute and but find no need to drop any lower, which again, just feels a bit of a waste. Im no power cyclist, but I cant really see where I would ever have need to use gears 1-8 in my current use for the bike. On flats I get up to gear 14 quickly and cruise. In my foolhardy quest to get the most out of this bike, Im considering pulling the trigger on a wider bottom bracket and a 60T chainring, which is ultimately as much as I can do, and Im hoping this will open up the usable range a bit more.

So back to Rohloff vs Alfine. The Rohloff isnt cheap, its multiples the price of the Alfine 8. The internal indexing of the Rohloff makes it a simple proposition to setup and feels really robust. The Alfine shifted really sweetly until it didnt, but would occasionally miss gears and feel a bit strange. On another bike where gearing wasnt an issue, Id personally pick the 8 over the 11 every time. The 11 has just felt too delicate, to fussy and sadly, too unreliable. I plan to sell my Alfine 8 wheel and the original Fudge's widened frame and bin the 11. The Rohloff inspires confidence, but the grip shift is a bit awkward. I dont regret the Rohloff purchase as for a commuter bike I want reliability. It feels high quality and despite loving thumb shifters, Im not sure I want to go down that route with the Rohloff (and suffer the expense). There is little discernible difference in weight between all hubs as far as I can tell. Coupled with the hydraulic Hope's, its a truly wonderful ride.

I just hope the 60T chainring gets me to where Id love this bike to be.....


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## ExBrit (4 Aug 2022)

I'm very tempted by the Alfine hub because it only needs one shifter, freeing up the other side to install an electronic dropper post on my Brompton.


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## Cycleops (4 Aug 2022)

ExBrit said:


> View attachment 655756


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## Gunk (5 Aug 2022)

MrM83 said:


> I realise this thread is a couple of years old but in case anyone was considering a Rohloff hub I thought it might be useful to put my experiences in here.
> 
> I purchased my Brompton from Fudge Cycles in London in 2011 which was sold new with a widened factory rear triangle and fitted with an Alfine 11 hub. On testing this bike vs standard models at the time, it was an easy sell given the gear range the Alfine 11 offered and the gear shift was incredibly sweet. However, as I recall, I had issues from the start with the hub leaking oil from seals and returned it to Fudge's who ended up building a new wheel with a new hub in it. As I got used to the bike I enjoyed the 11, but as a package it felt underbraked to me.....
> 
> ...



Some photos would be really useful


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## MrM83 (5 Aug 2022)

Gunk said:


> Some photos would be really useful



I can try and put some up, anything specific?


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## Tom... (5 Aug 2022)

Gunk said:


> Some photos would be really useful



@MrM83 Yes please!


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## MrM83 (5 Aug 2022)

I understand as a new joiner I won’t be able to post any pics for a while and each post I submit is being held back for review. I’ll post pics when I can I guess.


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## MrM83 (5 Aug 2022)

Attempting to post some pics for reference


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## MrM83 (5 Aug 2022)

Pics of the bike with the new Rohloff fitted. I recently replaced the cranks, headset, handlebar, front reflector, pedals (MKs quick release) and mudguards. I used Ergon GA2 grips which are specifically designed for use with a grip shift mechanism. Some of which adds new functionality but mostly to freshen the look up a bit.

Getting the rear mudguard to fit is a bit fiddly but achievable.

The eagle eyed will notice I’ve had to space the drive side crank so that the chainring doesn’t foul the rear frame when folded. This is a stock bottom bracket but I’d replace with a 127.5mm Shimano one to give me the clearance I need if I went with the 60T chainring.

Hope this helps for anyone considering this option.


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## MrM83 (5 Aug 2022)

And a pic of the unused rear triangle that was widened by Fudges to take a 135mm hub in case of interest


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## Gunk (6 Aug 2022)

MrM83 said:


> Attempting to post some pics for reference
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Stunning

whats the weight like?


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## MrM83 (6 Aug 2022)

I weighed the bike when the Alfine 8 was last on it, but before I switched to the Rohloff and replaced various bits. It tipped the scales at 12.9kg. I’m guessing it’s marginally heavier now.

It’s just about tolerable to carry for the distances I need to carry it.

A colleague had a standard Brompton he bought recently and claimed to be unable to tell a discernible weight difference when he picked it up.

Realised there was no pic of full bike


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## MrM83 (10 Aug 2022)

I’ve just fitted a Shimano 127.5mm bottom bracket which was cheaper than the Brompton one I’d just bought. It gives much more comfortable clearance of the chainring with the frame when folded and I think will be fine for 60T if I pull the trigger without need to modify the front wheel hook. Frankly if anyone is in the mkt for a new bottom bracket I’d be inclined to give the Shimano ones a look, the main benefit being the collars are made of metal and not plastic so a bit more robust when tightening. I’ve still used 2x3mm spacers and the 127.5 now aligns well with the rear sprocket on the Rohloff.

I’ve put a few more miles on it. Smoothness of hub is wonderful, still not convinced about the grip shifter though. My desire to fork out for another solution is next to zero.


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## rogerzilla (19 Aug 2022)

Isn't the chainline off? Even if the chain tolerates this, it will cause asymmetric wear of the sprocket and chainring.


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## berlinonaut (19 Aug 2022)

rogerzilla said:


> Isn't the chainline off? Even if the chain tolerates this, it will cause asymmetric wear of the sprocket and chainring.



With the Rohloff the chainline is further out. 


> 135/142mm O.L.D. SPEEDHUB with splined sprocket: 13-21 tooth = 57mm chain-line (Carrier 8540)


It does work with the standard bottom bracket, however, a somewhat wider one than standard seems possibly better.


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## berlinonaut (20 Aug 2022)

MrM83 said:


> I’ve just fitted a Shimano 127.5mm bottom bracket which was cheaper than the Brompton one I’d just bought. It gives much more comfortable clearance of the chainring with the frame when folded and I think will be fine for 60T if I pull the trigger without need to modify the front wheel hook.


BTW: I have been running a 60t chainring on the original spider cranks with the original bottom bracket w/o issues or mods of the front wheel hook for years. It even has an integrated guard for the chainwheel. Works on my 2-speed with original ti-rear frame, not tested if it would also work with the Kinetics rear frame.


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## MrM83 (23 Aug 2022)

rogerzilla said:


> Isn't the chainline off? Even if the chain tolerates this, it will cause asymmetric wear of the sprocket and chainring.



As suggested above the opposite is actually true, the 127.5mm BB brings the chain line into line with the Rohloff. Standard BB leaves it out by some way.

I’m struggling to find a 60T chainring with guard if anyone knows of one available?


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## berlinonaut (23 Aug 2022)

MrM83 said:


> I’m struggling to find a 60T chainring with guard if anyone knows of one available?



Can be found at recumbent and velomobile dealers or -producers. I bought mine from Alligt (http://alligt.nl/) at the Spezi a couple of years ago. On their webpage (dutch only ) you find them under "onderdelen" and then scroll a little down.
Also Gebhardt should possibly be able to deliver. Their webpage is in czech - even more fun than dutch.  In the UK possibly going through the list of i.e. ICE's dealers could help: https://www.icetrikes.co/dealers. Also, Ben of Kinetics could be worth a try: https://www.kinetics-online.co.uk/
If all that doesn't help possibly Jtec could have an idea for sourcing locally: http://www.jtekengineering.com/


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