# Nearly wiped out a whole cycling club



## peedee (25 Apr 2016)

If you're going to cycle like an idiot - at least please don't do it whilst you're leading a group ride - it won't be just you that gets killed.

This is to the dozen club idiots who pulled straight out onto a roundabout near Woodside yesterday morning, two and three abreast, without slowing down. You caused me and the car behind to perform emergency stops. Good job we were awake.

/rantover


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## Scoosh (25 Apr 2016)

Do you know which club it was ?

A little note to the Secretary could/ should be useful ...


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## Accy cyclist (25 Apr 2016)

Another rant about cyclists "bad behaviour". If they'd been in single file and not 2 or 3 abreast they would've taken longer to pass and held you up even longer.


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## PhilDawson8270 (25 Apr 2016)

Accy cyclist said:


> Another rant about cyclists "bad behaviour".


Far less than the rants about drivers "bad behaviour"


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## Accy cyclist (25 Apr 2016)

PhilDawson8270 said:


> Far less than the rants about drivers "bad behaviour"




Some fogies were in the pub last night. "Do you know what gets me about them cyclists"? Here we go, i thought. They ride side by side slowing down all the traffic, and they don't even pay road tax"!!


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## peedee (25 Apr 2016)

Accy cyclist said:


> Another rant about cyclists "bad behaviour". If they'd been in single file and not 2 or 3 abreast they would've taken longer to pass and held you up even longer.



No - read the original post. I don't have a problem with two/three abreast. It was the whole "pelaton" just pulling straight out onto the roundabout in front of me and causing cars to do emergency stops that was the problem.


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## peedee (25 Apr 2016)

Accy cyclist said:


> Some fogies were in the pub last night. "Do you know what gets me about them cyclists"? Here we go, i thought. They ride side by side slowing down all the traffic, and they don't even pay road tax"!!


I may be a fogey now, but I do still ride.


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## rb58 (25 Apr 2016)

Accy cyclist said:


> Another rant about cyclists "bad behaviour". If they'd been in single file and not 2 or 3 abreast they would've taken longer to pass and held you up even longer.


I suggest you read the OP again.


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## peedee (25 Apr 2016)

Scoosh said:


> Do you know which club it was ?
> 
> A little note to the Secretary could/ should be useful ...



I wish I'd had time to take note but I was too busy expecting the car behind to run into the back of me.


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## Rohloff_Brompton_Rider (25 Apr 2016)

Accy cyclist said:


> Another rant about cyclists "bad behaviour". If they'd been in single file and not 2 or 3 abreast they would've taken longer to pass and held you up even longer.


Goodness me you can be a silly poster sometimes....as others suggest re-read the op.


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## Accy cyclist (25 Apr 2016)

just_fixed said:


> Goodness me you can be a silly poster sometimes....as others suggest re-read the op.





I couldn't see anything different the 2nd time i read it. Am i supposed to be shocked about the pulling onto the roundabout bit?


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## PhilDawson8270 (25 Apr 2016)

User said:


> How do we know you had priority on the roundabout? How do we know it wasn't just a case of you being a naff driver?
> 
> I often see drivers who fail to give priority to cyclists on roundabouts when they should.



By the OP I read it as he was already on the roundabout. Unless traffic light controlled, it's very rare to find one where traffic on the roundabout does not have priority, and priority is to the right.

I have experienced similar from clubs. I was on the way to work on a Sunday late morning in Macclesfield, the Knutsford/Chelford/Macclesfield area is popular for cycle races/events in Summer at the weekends.

https://goo.gl/maps/nYBv7GgtNqm

I was ON the roundabout, which is a typical roundabout, only to have to stop extremely quickly, as cyclists approaching from the left failed to even slow down. It was part of their race, and not a single one in the large chain reduced their speed at all. It could have been a very serious accident, but they all seemed more interested in their race than traffic that had priority. They were seriously moving, at a very impressive pace, but not one would have been able to stop.

I have only experienced this once in the 2 years I worked and commuted there, so I'm not claiming they're all guilty, far from it! But I am inclined to believe the same or similar happened with the OP's incident.


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## Racing roadkill (25 Apr 2016)

Where were you in the world when this happened?


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## PK99 (25 Apr 2016)

Accy cyclist said:


> Another rant about cyclists "bad behaviour". If they'd been in single file and not 2 or 3 abreast they would've taken longer to pass and held you up even longer.



FFS read the OP before knee jeerking a ridiculous defence of crappy cycling behaviour. How many abreast was not the issue, pulling out onto a roundabout without giving way was.


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## PK99 (25 Apr 2016)

User said:


> I find it difficult to believe that any driver on a roundabout (unless it was a very big roundabout) was going at such a speed that an emergency stop was necessary - that just smacks of a lack of observation and anticipation.



You can be a real prat at times. Why the "two wheels good, four wheels bad" obsession? The cyclist who was driving the car, described illegal, dangerous behaviour by cyclists failing to give way to traffic on a roundabout, yet you criticise the driver. FFS GET REAL!


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## Fab Foodie (25 Apr 2016)

Cyclists fcuk-up to .... some of us are human ....


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## PhilDawson8270 (25 Apr 2016)

User said:


> I find it difficult to believe that any driver on a roundabout (unless it was a very big roundabout) was going at such a speed that an emergency stop was necessary - that just smacks of a lack of observation and anticipation.



You really do post some garbage at times.


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## GrumpyGregry (25 Apr 2016)

peedee said:


> If you're going to cycle like an idiot - at least please don't do it whilst you're leading a group ride - it won't be just you that gets killed.
> 
> This is to the dozen club idiots who pulled straight out onto a roundabout near Woodside yesterday morning, two and three abreast, without slowing down. You caused me and the car behind to perform emergency stops. Good job we were awake.
> 
> /rantover


Were you already on the roundabout? ie your hard braking took place after you'd crossed the give way line?


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## Cuchilo (25 Apr 2016)

Oh man , its kicking off again


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## Racing roadkill (25 Apr 2016)

The 'pulling out onto a roundabout' debate, is going to be the new 'three abreast' debate.


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## Ajax Bay (25 Apr 2016)

User said:


> I find it difficult to believe that any driver on a roundabout (unless it was a very big roundabout) was going at such a speed that an emergency stop was necessary - that just smacks of a lack of observation and anticipation.


Do you go round roundabouts really slowly then, in case a car turns on to the roundabout, without right of way, right in front of you? I don't. I go round knowing it's a possibility but that's it. And if some car jumps out in front of me then 'emergency stop' it is. And the bloke in the car behind can look out for him/herself, in similar vein.

Cyclists on a club run should be specially well behaved and obey these rules of the road which exist for the benefit of the whole road user community. Leaders of runs will likely know there's a roundabout coming up and depending on the size of the group and the concentration of traffic, should try to ensure that the roundabout is approached at a speed where the group can stop if there's traffic on the roundabout, which HAS PRIORITY.


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## derrick (25 Apr 2016)




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## PhilDawson8270 (25 Apr 2016)

User said:


> The fact that you think it's garbage says a lot about your approach to driving...



The fact you think it's not garbage says a lot about your approach to cycling and road traffic laws....


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## Racing roadkill (25 Apr 2016)

[QUOTE 4250780, member: 9609"]Did the first rider have priority ?
Should a Pelaton just be treated as you would an articulated lorry as a long vehicle. As a driver I wouldn't expect them to break in the middle (even though by law they should)[/QUOTE]
Yes and no. The key difference between the long train / peloton of cyclists, and a lorry / bus, is that a lorry / bus can't make itself more accommodating to another road user, even if it wanted to, the peloton, can alter its size / shape, in order to not antagonise fellow road users unduly. All this "it's my right to ride 3 abreast, if I want to" is a crock. As a cyclist, using a public highway, you have a responsibility to ride in a manner that doesn't inconvenience other road users, whenever possible. It's even in the guide, that is the Highway Code.


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## derrick (25 Apr 2016)

Racing roadkill said:


> Yes and no. The key difference between the long train / peloton of cyclists, and a lorry / bus, is that a lorry / bus can't make itself more accommodating to another road user, even if it wanted to, the peloton, can alter its size / shape, in order to not antagonise fellow road users unduly. All this "it's my right to ride 3 abreast, if I want to" is a crock. *As a cyclist, using a public highway, you have a responsibility to ride in a manner that doesn't inconvenience other road users,* whenever possible. It's even in the guide, that is the Highway Code.


You hit the nail on the head with the high lighted bit.


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## PK99 (25 Apr 2016)

Ajax Bay said:


> Cyclists on a club run should be specially well behaved and obey these rules of the road which exist for the benefit of the whole road user community. Leaders of runs will likely know there's a roundabout coming up and depending on the size of the group and the concentration of traffic, should try to ensure that the roundabout is approached at a speed where the group can stop if there's traffic on the roundabout, which HAS PRIORITY.



I lead club runs, and it is an essential part of the leader's obligations to obey traffic law and to not lead the group into danger.

Any of our leaders who did what the op described would be taken to task by the group at the time and would be very unlikely to be asked to lead again.


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## glenn forger (25 Apr 2016)

How fast were you driving when you had to do am emergency stop? Which roundabout was it?


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## PhilDawson8270 (25 Apr 2016)

User said:


> I drive on a roundabout at a speed that is appropriate to the road conditions. I also observe and anticipate. YMMV.
> 
> I've never had to do an emergency stop on a roundabout.



As do I, both in a car, and on a bicycle.

I've never hit anything driving, nor have I cycled onto a roundabout at high speeds in front of a vehicle leaving very it very little time to stop.


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## glenn forger (25 Apr 2016)

PK99 said:


> Any of our leaders who did what the op described



The OP doesn't say which of the riders caused him to emergency stop. The leaders may have done nothing wrong.


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## PK99 (25 Apr 2016)

User said:


> I drive on a roundabout at a speed that is appropriate to the road conditions. I also observe and anticipate. YMMV.
> 
> I've never had to do an emergency stop on a roundabout.



Perhaps because you have never come across a group of cyclists acting illegal and dangerously. STOP DIGGING.


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## glenn forger (25 Apr 2016)

PhilDawson8270 said:


> nor have I cycled onto a roundabout at high speeds in front of a vehicle leaving very it very little time to stop.



We have no idea if that's what happened but don't let that stop you making stuff up.


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## Lonestar (25 Apr 2016)

peedee said:


> I wish I'd had time to take note but I was too busy expecting the car behind to run into the back of me.



If the driver behind you was any good then perhaps he would have been able to read ahead and see the hazard.


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## glenn forger (25 Apr 2016)

PK99 said:


> Perhaps because you have never come across a group of cyclists acting illegal and dangerously.



We have no idea if that's what happened. If you get this angry about cyclists you've never even bleeding seen I despair.


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## GuyBoden (25 Apr 2016)

Fab Foodie said:


> Cyclists fcuk-up to .... some of us are human ....


Yes, Humans are always at fault.


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## PK99 (25 Apr 2016)

glenn forger said:


> The OP doesn't say which of the riders caused him to emergency stop. The leaders may have done nothing wrong.



Not correct. The leader's duty of care to both the other riders and other road users mean that in the circumstances described, even if the lead rider had had nominal priority, he should stop.


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## glenn forger (25 Apr 2016)

I'm struggling to think of a roundabout in the country where you would fail to notice an entire peleton. I'm sure the op will provide full details.


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## Scoosh (25 Apr 2016)

*MOD NOTE:*
Please do not start arguing about the details of the circumstances which have been described by the OP. He was the only one there, so any speculation about the minutiae of the event is pointless and will only lead to further argument, which has a tendency to lead to raised heart-rates and abuse etc - which is not desirable. 

Thank you.


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## glenn forger (25 Apr 2016)

PK99 said:


> Not correct. The leader's duty of care to both the other riders and other road users mean that in the circumstances described, even if the lead rider had had nominal priority, he should stop.



Says who? What rule is that?


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## vickster (25 Apr 2016)

Maybe the OP can explain the situation better

However, all road users including cyclists should slow down approaching a hazard. Contrary to the belief of some on this forum, cyclists are not beyond reproach. 
Like the twat who recently failed to slow down as I stepped onto a zebra crossing and got uppity when I shouted at him that stopping also applied to cyclists


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## GrumpyGregry (25 Apr 2016)

User said:


> I find it difficult to believe that any driver on a roundabout (unless it was a very big roundabout) was going at such a speed that an emergency stop was necessary - that just smacks of a lack of observation and anticipation.


I don't regard the roundabouts around the 'sham as being of the very big variety but only last month I was, in the course of one weekend, forced to conduct two emergency braking manoeuvres as

nobber A, whom I had already sussed as knobjockey, serenely turned right in front of me whilst indicating a left turn. Unfortunately nobber B was in the process of overtaking me on the roundabout and collided with nobber A

nobber C, simply pulled out straight in front of me, clearly having an highly animated conversation on a handsfree mobile.

I wasn't going that fast in either case but needed the ABD to do its stuff.


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## GrumpyGregry (25 Apr 2016)

Racing roadkill said:


> Yes and no. The key difference between the long train / peloton of cyclists, and a lorry / bus, is that a lorry / bus can't make itself more accommodating to another road user, even if it wanted to, the peloton, can alter its size / shape, in order to not antagonise fellow road users unduly. All this "it's my right to ride 3 abreast, if I want to" is a crock. *As a cyclist, using a public highway, you have a responsibility to ride in a manner that doesn't inconvenience other road users, whenever possible.* It's even in the guide, that is the Highway Code.


Probs you get off the roads completely then, as any driver can claim to be inconvenienced by any cyclists, even a lone one,


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## glenn forger (25 Apr 2016)

I've never heard of that before. How on earth does the leader know where the stragglers are? Suppose a driver overtakes just before the roundabout so the peleton is split? That sounds like a made-up rule to me.

The OP bangs on about 2 or 3 abreast, which is not only lawful but often sensible at dangerous places like roundabouts. So the OP appears to resent cyclists and seems unwilling to provide further details on this incident. Ho hum.


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## GrumpyGregry (25 Apr 2016)

vickster said:


> Maybe the OP can explain the situation better
> 
> However, all road users including cyclists should slow down approaching a hazard. Contrary to the belief of some on this forum, cyclists are not beyond reproach.
> Like the twat who recently failed to slow down as I stepped onto a zebra crossing and got uppity when I shouted at him that stopping also applied to cyclists


Use your shoulder. Far more effective than shouting.


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## derrick (25 Apr 2016)

vickster said:


> Maybe the OP can explain the situation better
> 
> However, all road users including cyclists should slow down approaching a hazard. Contrary to the belief of some on this forum, cyclists are not beyond reproach.
> Like the twat who recently failed to slow down as I stepped onto a zebra crossing and got uppity when I shouted at him that stopping also applied to cyclists


He seams to explain it well, Don't understand a lot of the replies, Are you all just a bit bored, Maybe you should go for a ride.


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## GrumpyGregry (25 Apr 2016)

User said:


> ABD? Or ABS?


ABS!


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## PhilDawson8270 (25 Apr 2016)

glenn forger said:


> We have no idea if that's what happened but don't let that stop you making stuff up.



It's what happened in the incident I described prior in which my comment was based upon. But don't let that stop your attitude.


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## glenn forger (25 Apr 2016)

PK99 said:


> Not correct. The leader's duty of care to both the other riders and other road users mean that in the circumstances described, even if the lead rider had had nominal priority, he should stop.



Can you say where you got this rule from or not?


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## vickster (25 Apr 2016)

GrumpyGregry said:


> Use your shoulder. Far more effective than shouting.


He was doing about 20mph, had a clear view of the crossing, made no attempt to slow despite dry roads.


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## glenn forger (25 Apr 2016)

PhilDawson8270 said:


> It's what happened in the incident I described prior in which my comment was based upon. But don't let that stop your attitude.



How fast are you claiming the leaders were going?


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## PhilDawson8270 (25 Apr 2016)

PK99 said:


> Not correct. The leader's duty of care to both the other riders and other road users mean that in the circumstances described, even if the lead rider had had nominal priority, he should stop.



Each cyclist has a duty of care for themselves, and nobody else. Just because the ride leader has a clear, right of way, does not mean everybody following does.


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## sidevalve (25 Apr 2016)

First cyclist, second cyclist, thirty oddth cyclist makes NO difference TRAFFIC ON THE ROUNDABOUT HAS PRIORITY. Cyclists are NOT one vehicle they are lots of separate vehicles [just like cars] and when the r/about became occupied the following riders should have stopped [I assume of course that the 'cyclists are perfect and we'll find an excuse for breaking any traffic law wouldn't be dumb enough to follow the leader if he just ran into a river for example so why into the path of other vehicles going about their perfectly law abiding business ]. Why get angry - because they make it worse for me, the OP and every other rider out there. Pathetic TDF wanna be's an urban warriors who imagine they can do as they please and just get away with it. They're as crap as the car drivers they pretend to despise. perhaps selling the bikes and buying a german make of car would make them feel right at home.
U Tube video of some made up 'accident' and it's clearly a 100% true nailed on example of bad/dangerous driving by some motorist and we all believe it [really ?] but a comment by a cyclist about other cyclists actually doing something wrong [surely such a thing is impossible] and it's obviously total boXXXcks.
Some cyclists do dumb things - some cyclists break the law, so do car drivers but that doesn't make it ok
If you break the law don't cry when other people do the same.
Leaving this now to the cyclists can do no wrong zealots.


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## PhilDawson8270 (25 Apr 2016)

glenn forger said:


> How fast are you claiming the leaders were going?



It isn't possible to put a number on the speed of them since they were travelling perpendicular to me, and any number would be a guess.

But as an ESTIMATION, I would average around 16 to 17mph around those roads. They looked to be very experienced cyclists taking part in a race, and seemed to be going considerably quicker than I am capable of, plus in a group they would be more efficient also. So I'd say around 22-24mph at an estimation, but that is the best I can do.

I expect all road users to do something stupid, and prepare to not have a collision where possible. It has worked well for over a decade so I can't be that wrong. However, it doesn't stop us having a rant at others stupid behaviour. It's good to vent at times, even when you have prepare and stopped in time, it doesn't make the behaviour of others any better.


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## glenn forger (25 Apr 2016)

The entire thread could be summed up as "Waaah! I had to use my brakes!"


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## PhilDawson8270 (25 Apr 2016)

glenn forger said:


> The entire thread could be summed up as "Waaah! I had to use my brakes!"



The same can surely be said for when a cyclist has to stop for a car who failed to yield to a cyclist with priority.

Admittedly, the risks to each road user are not balanced. But the thread is essentially the same.


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## Dec66 (25 Apr 2016)

@peedee 

Which "Woodside" do you mean?

The one near Croydon? And if so, is the roundabout the big one near Shirley?


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## peedee (25 Apr 2016)

vickster said:


> Maybe the OP can explain the situation better



I was here (pretty much where the Google car was) about to take the next exit:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4...Z-MVfarhehyodK8IepsA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

Cyclists came from the exit road on the left, in a large bunch. Nowhere for me to go but stop, and quickly.

My main complaint is that if you do this when you are on your own, then fine, you might squeeze through ok, but you take the risk. But please don't do it if you are leading a group as you are going to get them killed.

I mainly posted here in the hope that maybe one of the riders might read this.


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## vickster (25 Apr 2016)

glenn forger said:


> The entire thread could be summed up as "Waaah! I had to use my brakes!"


Maybe the cyclists could have thought about doing so when they don't have priority


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## Crackle (25 Apr 2016)

I love these threads.


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## glenn forger (25 Apr 2016)

Never grow stale, do they? These "One time I saw a cyclist do something silly" threads that people regularly post on cycle forums.


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## vickster (25 Apr 2016)

Silly or dangerous?


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## glenn forger (25 Apr 2016)

No idea, wasn't there, don't trust the account of someone who mentions irrelevances to have a dig at people on bikes.


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## Dec66 (25 Apr 2016)

peedee said:


> I was here (pretty much where the Google car was) about to take the next exit:
> https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4...Z-MVfarhehyodK8IepsA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en
> 
> Cyclists came from the exit road on the left, in a large bunch. Nowhere for me to go but stop, and quickly.
> ...


Hmmm. Case closed, I think. 

Did the ride leader pile on and drag everyone else on?


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## glenn forger (25 Apr 2016)

Do you think you will ever recover?


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## nickyboy (25 Apr 2016)

As this is a cycling forum I guess it is to be expected that there is a certain element of pro-cycling/anti-car driving sentiment. As such I take some of the posts with a pinch of salt

However, in this case, having seen where this happened, there is very little to excuse what is just rank poor and dangerous cycling. The cars on the roundabout have priority so you stop and give way, regardless of whether other riders in your group have kept going


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## glenn forger (25 Apr 2016)

Or whether there's a muppet in a Ranger Rover up your backside playing with a mobile. I hate those sort of rab entrances, they encourage speeding, I'd imagine you have to take the lane. But still. Dab the brakes, the end.


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## winjim (25 Apr 2016)

nickyboy said:


> As this is a cycling forum I guess it is to be expected that there is a certain element of pro-cycling/anti-car driving sentiment. As such I take some of the posts with a pinch of salt
> 
> However, in this case, having seen where this happened, there is very little to excuse what is just rank poor and dangerous cycling. The cars on the roundabout have priority so you stop and give way, regardless of whether other riders in your group have kept going


Trouble is, a rider in the middle of a peleton can't just put the brakes on at 25mph without the whole bunch crashing down. That's why the leader needs to consider the group as a unit.


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## peedee (25 Apr 2016)

Dec66 said:


> Did the ride leader pile on and drag everyone else on?



Yes.

I was taken by surprise because they came down the inside of a queue of traffic that was stopped waiting to enter the roundabout. Hence, I didn't see them until the last second.


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## nickyboy (25 Apr 2016)

Well you could argue that it was the leader of the group that was at fault. Or it was those that followed him. The one person not at fault was the car driver already on the roundabout


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## Tim Hall (25 Apr 2016)

Racing roadkill said:


> All this "it's my right to ride 3 abreast, if I want to" is a crock. As a cyclist, using a public highway, you have a responsibility to ride in a manner that doesn't inconvenience other road users, whenever possible.* It's even in the guide, that is the Highway Code*.



You, as they say, got a cite for that?


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## PK99 (25 Apr 2016)

PhilDawson8270 said:


> Each cyclist has a duty of care for themselves, and nobody else. Just because the ride leader has a clear, right of way, does not mean everybody following does.



Everyone has a legal duty of care to anyone who may me affected by their actions.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_of_care_in_English_law 

Gives the general overview, and specific to these circumstances:

Is it fair, just and reasonable to impose a duty of care; are there precluding public policy concerns?
There are a number of distinct and recognisable situations in which the courts recognise the existence of a duty of care. Examples include


one road-user to another

Plus ctc ride leader guidelines : You have a duty of care to riders and the public...


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## glenn forger (25 Apr 2016)

nickyboy said:


> Well you could argue that it was the leader of the group that was at fault. Or it was those that followed him. The one person not at fault was the car driver already on the roundabout



Apart from the pollution spewed out by his penguin-killing death machine.


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## nickyboy (25 Apr 2016)

glenn forger said:


> Apart from the pollution spewed out by his penguin-killing death machine.



Quality


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## briantrumpet (25 Apr 2016)

glenn forger said:


> Apart from the pollution spewed out by his penguin-killing death machine.


I don't like cars either, but not killing penguins doesn't make the cyclists' actions in this instance sensible.


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## PK99 (25 Apr 2016)

winjim said:


> Trouble is, a rider in the middle of a peleton can't just put the brakes on at 25mph without the whole bunch crashing down. That's why the leader needs to consider the group as a unit.




...and slow the group when approaching potentially hazardous junctions such as a roundabout.


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## winjim (25 Apr 2016)

PK99 said:


> ...and slow the group when approaching potentially hazardous junctions such as a roundabout.


Indeed. I wonder if some of the riders were even aware of the cars on the roundabout. When you're in a bunch you're concentration is on the rider immediately ahead, and those either side. There's an amount of trust involved.

Edit: Just been back to the OP, and this particular group was only a dozen riders so my above comment is possibly not relevant. But for bigger groups it might be...


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## briantrumpet (25 Apr 2016)

winjim said:


> Indeed. I wonder if some of the riders were even aware of the cars on the roundabout. When you're in a bunch you're concentration is on the rider immediately ahead, and those either side. There's an amount of trust involved.


If you're in a bunch and not also aware of a the potential hazards of both a roundabout and a line of cars, then you probably shouldn't be riding in a bunch.


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## mickle (25 Apr 2016)

When I rode the World Naked Bike Ride (York) a couple of years ago we were told by the organisers that the Police now advise groups of riders to act 'as one' when encountering roundabouts, give way junctions and red lights. Keep together, it's safer.

It's not outwith the bounds of possibility that something like a slow moving articulated lorry (for instance) might set off from a roundabout junction - having ensured that the coast is clear - and then be half way across the junction to be met with a car wizzing around the roundabout which then has to apply the brakes.

I've come around a blind corner on a roundabout many times to discover my route blocked by stationery traffic in the junction. Luckily I know that driving no faster than a speed that allows me to stop in the distance I know to be clear means that I'll always be able to stop in time. And I think it's fair to expect the driver of the car directly behind me to drive with enough space between her/his vehicle and mine that (s)he'd be able to stop if I stop. What with it being one of the basics of passing the driving test and all.


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## Dec66 (25 Apr 2016)

peedee said:


> Yes.
> 
> I was taken by surprise because they came down the inside of a queue of traffic that was stopped waiting to enter the roundabout. Hence, I didn't see them until the last second.


If you know which club it was, maybe a little note dropped off to the secretary outlining what you'd encountered might be in order? No need for a flameogram, just state the facts as you saw them and request that the ride leaders exercise a bit more caution for everyone's sake?


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## Scoosh (25 Apr 2016)

Dec66 said:


> If you know which club it was, maybe a little note dropped off to the secretary outlining what you'd encountered might be in order? No need for a flameogram, just state the facts as you saw them and request that the ride leaders exercise a bit more caution for everyone's sake?


Good idea ...


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## Hacienda71 (25 Apr 2016)

peedee said:


> I wish I'd had time to take note but I was too busy expecting the car behind to run into the back of me.



Strava should tell us if you have approx times.


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## Mugshot (25 Apr 2016)

Dec66 said:


> If you know which club it was, maybe a little note dropped off to the secretary outlining what you'd encountered might be in order? No need for a flameogram, just state the facts as you saw them and request that the ride leaders exercise a bit more caution for everyone's sake?





Scoosh said:


> Good idea ...


Perhaps the OP could direct them to some of the well reasoned and sensible arguments and suggestions outlined in this thread


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## peedee (25 Apr 2016)

Dec66 said:


> If you know which club it was, maybe a little note dropped off to the secretary outlining what you'd encountered might be in order? No need for a flameogram, just state the facts as you saw them and request that the ride leaders exercise a bit more caution for everyone's sake?



Didn't get the name - hence posting here in the hope that the message might filter down. This was about 10:30am on Sunday. Good suggestion about looking on Strava - when I get chance.


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## AndyRM (25 Apr 2016)

This might be the club?


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## oldfatfool (25 Apr 2016)

User said:


> The fact that you think it's garbage says a lot about your approach to driving...


If cyclists want to be treated like equal road users then they should expect to slow down and be prepared to stop at a give way junction when there is something on the main carriageway, in the same way they should stop for red lights. If idiots continue to cycle in a manner you prescribe ie aggressively then you can only expect to receive the same from other road users, which is detrimental to us all.


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## oldfatfool (25 Apr 2016)

winjim said:


> Trouble is, a rider in the middle of a peleton can't just put the brakes on at 25mph without the whole bunch crashing down. That's why the leader needs to consider the group as a unit.


If they were travelling at 25mph up the inside of queuing traffic then I am surprised Darwin hasn't worked his magic long before this.


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## bladesman73 (25 Apr 2016)

its funny that the usual cockwombles turn up to threads like this, dont read the original message properly, then go into biases rants with their mates clicking like everytime they post! unless you come on here and say cyclists are never at fault they will be on you like a pack of hyenas. grow up


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## Mugshot (25 Apr 2016)

bladesman73 said:


> the usual cockwombles


Come on now, don't be shy!


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## Levo-Lon (25 Apr 2016)

glenn forger said:


> Apart from the pollution spewed out by his penguin-killing death machine.



how do you make a cup of coffee in that igloo @glenn forger

human singles out one form of polution...but never causes any himself..you are a Saint 
the cyclists were twats as is often the case


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## Ajax Bay (25 Apr 2016)

igloo . . . penguin


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## Dogtrousers (25 Apr 2016)

To lighten the mood a bit, not long ago I drove onto a roundabout (no one to my right) As I entered some riders on the opposite side of the roundabout entered (all OK). However, by the time I had trundled round one of them had had a clipless moment and was rolling around on the floor, much to the merriment of his mates. I just stopped an popped my hazard lights on while he got up. And quietly joined in the laughter.

No wrecks, and nobody drownded.


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## briantrumpet (25 Apr 2016)

Ajax Bay said:


> igloo . . . penguin


People who live in igloos shouldn't throw penguins?


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## jefmcg (25 Apr 2016)

GrumpyGregry said:


> Use your shoulder. Far more effective than shouting.


@vickster has just had shoulder surgery, so she better not or BUPA will cancel her policy.


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## glenn forger (25 Apr 2016)

I am going to start sending emails every time a road user makes me use my brakes. The nerve. May even put it on Twitter. Cant get away with this.


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## Profpointy (25 Apr 2016)

glenn forger said:


> I am going to start sending emails every time a road user makes me use my brakes. The nerve. May even put it on Twitter. Cant get away with this.



Emergency stop is not quite the same sentiment as had to brake a bit.

I had to do an emergency brake in very wet conditions to avoid ploughing into the back of a Range Rover (to meet one stereotype) who had just overtaken me then slammed on the brakes as couldn't pass a parked car. This is not the same as easing off slightly to, say, allow merging traffic.


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## boydj (25 Apr 2016)

I've seen this happen, including the emergency braking from cars with priority, in sportives where people seem to think they are racing and slowing for anything is a nono.

On club runs there would generally be a shout of 'Easy' from the front so that everybody is prepared to stop if necessary. If the bunch is split, then the leading group would soft-pedal until everybody was together again.


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## glenn forger (25 Apr 2016)

I had to do an emergency brake once. It was mundane and unremarkable. True story.


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## MontyVeda (25 Apr 2016)

glenn forger said:


> I had to do an emergency brake once. It was mundane and unremarkable. True story.


You're clearly disinterested in this thread... but you keep posting. Why would that be?


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## glenn forger (25 Apr 2016)

Learn what disinterested means and we'll talk.


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## mjr (25 Apr 2016)

@peedee - can you say what club colours were most commonly worn, or if there didn't seem to be any? You can often ID groups by knowing that and the area.



User said:


> I find it difficult to believe that any driver on a roundabout (unless it was a very big roundabout) was going at such a speed that an emergency stop was necessary - that just smacks of a lack of observation and anticipation.


Don't be silly: the Driver-nati Rules say that once you've crossed the line onto the roundabout, you boot the loud pedal and squeal around the centre island as hard as tyre grip permits! 



Ajax Bay said:


> Do you go round roundabouts really slowly then, in case a car turns on to the roundabout, without right of way, right in front of you?


Not really slowly, but slow enough that I can stop. I live close enough to a hospital and a fire station that blue light vehicles are pretty common, but drivers are still taught to be ready for even an out-of-control car rolling out. Why aren't you?



Racing roadkill said:


> As a cyclist, using a public highway, you have a responsibility to ride in a manner that doesn't inconvenience other road users, whenever possible. It's even in the guide, that is the Highway Code.


I'm pretty sure that is what is a crock. I join @Tim Hall in asking you to cite the Highway Code rules you think say that.



PK99 said:


> Not correct. The leader's duty of care to both the other riders and other road users mean that in the circumstances described, even if the lead rider had had nominal priority, he should stop.


It depends on the group and the practices they use, but it does sound rather like some cyclists should have given way to those already on the roundabout. Also, some of the cyclists may have been told to stop and not done so, which happens more easily when there aren't enough leaders to split into more manageable groups.


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## 400bhp (25 Apr 2016)

PhilDawson8270 said:


> As do I, both in a car, and on a bicycle.
> 
> I've never hit anything driving, nor have I cycled onto a roundabout at high speeds in front of a vehicle leaving very it very little time to stop.



The roundabout you posted up is on two TT courses, however I don't think it's part of a [proper] racing circuit.

Are uou sure it was a club? It could have been a sportive when some cyclists appear to lose their way of thinking for the duration of the ride.


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## 400bhp (25 Apr 2016)

BTW, I feel I must go onto the VW Golf forum to start a post about a feckin numpty that drove straight at me on a mini r'about, completely oblivious to my existence on Saturday.

On second thoughts I CBA.


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## Racing roadkill (25 Apr 2016)

mjray said:


> @peedee - can you say what club colours were most commonly worn, or if there didn't seem to be any? You can often ID groups by knowing that and the area.
> 
> 
> Don't be silly: the Driver-nati Rules say that once you've crossed the line onto the roundabout, you boot the loud pedal and squeal around the centre island as hard as tyre grip permits!
> ...



Must resist...... Must resist......


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## Tim Hall (25 Apr 2016)

Racing roadkill said:


> Must resist...... Must resist......


Nice picture. Anyway, I'm having trouble finding a reference in the Highway Code where it says


> As a cyclist, using a public highway, you have a responsibility to ride in a manner that doesn't inconvenience other road users,


Can you help?


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## PK99 (25 Apr 2016)

Tim Hall said:


> Nice picture. Anyway, I'm having trouble finding a reference in the Highway Code where it says
> Can you help?



This is close:

This section should be read by all drivers, motorcyclists, cyclists and horse riders. The rules in *The Highway Code* do not give you the right of way in any circumstance, but they advise you when you should give way to others. Always give way if it can help to avoid an incident.


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## vickster (25 Apr 2016)

jefmcg said:


> @vickster has just had shoulder surgery, so she better not or BUPA will cancel her policy.


And my surgeon, Physio and importantly my mum would shout at me


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## 400bhp (25 Apr 2016)

Tim Hall said:


> Nice picture. Anyway, I'm having trouble finding a reference in the Highway Code where it says
> Can you help?



But it does say


> be considerate of other road users


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## ChrisV (25 Apr 2016)

Just found the Ignore function


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## Kajjal (25 Apr 2016)

If you want to injured on a road bike go one on one with a car. Regardless of the niceties or otherwise there is a difference between confident and dangerous riding.

In mountain biking the equivalent is going on one with a horse or a tractor. It will not turn out well for you.


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## Mr Celine (25 Apr 2016)

mickle said:


> I've come around a blind corner on a roundabout many times to discover my route blocked by *stationery traffic* in the junction.



Stationary stationery traffic is even worse!


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## DRM (25 Apr 2016)

Mr Celine said:


> Stationary stationery traffic is even worse!


Someone should throw the book at that truck driver, theres plenty on the road for starters


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## Tin Pot (25 Apr 2016)

I nearly wiped out a family of four at a bus stop today!

Then, I took the key out of the ignition, left the car on my driveway and cycled to my destination instead.

Phew, close call!


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## TheJDog (26 Apr 2016)

sidevalve said:


> They're as crap as the car drivers they pretend to despise



Absolutely right, we're all fallible in our own ways no matter what our mode of transport.



briantrumpet said:


> People who live in igloos shouldn't throw penguins?



People who live in igloos live at the top of the planet, penguins at the bottom.


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## Fab Foodie (26 Apr 2016)

TheJDog said:


> Absolutely right, we're all fallible in our own ways no matter what our mode of transport.
> 
> 
> 
> People who live in igloos live at the top of the planet, penguins at the bottom.


There's a white Land Rover Defender nearby with all the macho 'off-road' bolt on goodies. Written across the back is : Antarctic Polar Bear Survey Vehicle.


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## jefmcg (26 Apr 2016)

TheJDog said:


> People who live in igloos live at the top of the planet, penguins at the bottom


Apparently there are penguins in the Arctic now, because people.


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## Cuchilo (26 Apr 2016)

jefmcg said:


> Apparently there are penguins in the Arctic now, because people.


Invited them to stay for a holiday ?
Coloured in some ducks to tempt them over ?


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## Tim Hall (26 Apr 2016)

jefmcg said:


> Apparently there are penguins in the Arctic now, because people.


Some time ago Penguin wrappers had the rib tickler "Q: What do you call a penguin in the desert? A:Lost." My inner pedant started jumping up and down. Surely, I thought, the Antarctic can be classified as a desert, as it's a region of low rainfall. Anyhoo, I was pleased to see recently that there's now an alternate side splitter: "Q: What do you call 500 penguins in Trafalgar Square? A: Lost.". Phew.


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## martint235 (26 Apr 2016)

peedee said:


> No - read the original post. I don't have a problem with two/three abreast. It was the whole "pelaton" just pulling straight out onto the roundabout in front of me and causing cars to do emergency stops that was the problem.


The one, and only, time I went out with a club something similar happened. The front of the ride just pulled straight onto a roundabout ignoring the car coming from the right. To then make matters worse, because the lady driver of the car declined to stop to let the rest of the group onto the roundabout, she was subjected to torrents of abuse from the cyclists in front of me. 

This, and the attitude of the ride leader when I rode up to be alongside him to tell him about this and why I wouldn't be continuing my ride with them, led me to write to the secretary of the club. "I wasn't there so I can't possibly comment. And it's more likely that the riders hurling abuse weren't actually from our club". Yes Gemini Bicycling Club, I'm looking at you here.

I've not felt the need to go out with a club since.


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## winjim (26 Apr 2016)

jefmcg said:


> Apparently there are penguins in the Arctic now, because people.


To be fair, there are penguins in Edinburgh.


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## jefmcg (26 Apr 2016)

> A truck driver is delivering some penguins to the zoo. But his truck breaks down in a dessert near the zoo. Luckily, a pickup truck soon comes by. The driver flags him down and hands him $300 saying, "Take these penguins to the zoo."
> 
> A few hours later he sees the same guy heading the opposite way with the penguins still in the back. He yells at the man, "You were supposed to take them to the zoo!"
> 
> The guy replies, "I did, but we had money left over so we're going to the movies."


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## glenn forger (26 Apr 2016)

The polar bears are moving south and there's talk of them mating with brown bears. The cubs are called growlers.


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## tyred (26 Apr 2016)

The last time I saw Penguins was in Iceland. They were on a BOGOF offer.


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## Tin Pot (26 Apr 2016)

Was the dessert a sorbet?


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## Dayvo (26 Apr 2016)

Tin Pot said:


> Was the dessert a sorbet?



That sounds like a bit of a _beau_ jest!


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## MiK1138 (26 Apr 2016)

User said:


> Edinburgh may be something of a cold, desolate wasteland.... but it isn't quite the Arctic.


It Bleddy felt like it at Pedal On Parliament last Saturday
I


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## MiK1138 (26 Apr 2016)

Got a mate who when chatting up Ladies tells them he is a penguin erector at Edinburgh Zoo. the chat is, because Ed. Zoo is on Ed. Airport flight path when planes are taking off the penguins will watch them and if they go right over the penguins head they fall over, and it is my mates job to stand them up again. He swears it works every time


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## briantrumpet (26 Apr 2016)

Tim Hall said:


> My inner pedant started jumping up and down. ....now an alternate side splitter...


I wouldn't mention it, if you hadn't mentioned your inner pedant. I've got one too.

Sorry.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (27 Apr 2016)

peedee said:


> It was the whole "pelaton"



[QUOTE 4250780, member: 9609"]Should a Pelaton just be treated as you would an articulated lorry [/QUOTE]



glenn forger said:


> I'm struggling to think of a roundabout in the country where you would fail to notice an entire peleton.





winjim said:


> Trouble is, a rider in the middle of a peleton can't just put the brakes on



It's peloton. As demonstrated below:


Racing roadkill said:


> The key difference between the long train / peloton of cyclists.


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## winjim (27 Apr 2016)

Marmion said:


> It's peloton. As demonstrated below:


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## winjim (27 Apr 2016)

To be fair, in this case it was a dozen cyclists out for a club ride, so not a _peloton_ anyway.


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## vickster (27 Apr 2016)

Petit peloton?


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## Sara_H (27 Apr 2016)

PK99 said:


> FFS read the OP before knee jeerking a ridiculous defence of crappy cycling behaviour. *How many abreast was not the issue*, pulling out onto a roundabout without giving way was.


Why was it mentioned then?


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## mickle (27 Apr 2016)

Hur. You said 'abreast'.


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## Bollo (27 Apr 2016)

winjim said:


>



And he probably wrote that in a strip club.


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## winjim (27 Apr 2016)

Bollo said:


> And he probably wrote that in a strip club.


Whilst playing the bongos.


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## Crandoggler (27 Apr 2016)

TheJDog said:


> Absolutely right, we're all fallible in our own ways no matter what our mode of transport.



End of discussion really. Probably the most sensible thing ever written on this forum about the matter.


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## jefmcg (27 Apr 2016)

Crandoggler said:


> End of discussion really. Probably the most sensible thing ever written on this forum about the matter.


Honestly, I think the penguin stuff was pretty sensible.


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## SpokeyDokey (27 Apr 2016)

What a great thread to read on a wet, snowy and very cold day - I know this as I just read it on a wet, snowy and very cold day.

Terrific entertainment - ta very much.


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## Apollonius (27 Apr 2016)

Difficult to say much about this incident without having seen it, but here goes anyway!

Now, assuming that everyone involved is a reasonable sentient human-being, which is, after all the necessity for our highly developed civilisation to function, I have a couple of speculations to offer.

Given the above, it is unlikely that a ride leader would willingly lead a group of cyclists into the path of a fast moving car on a roundabout. Possible explanation? maybe the way was clear for the leader but not clear by the time the rest of the group were on the roundabout. In that case, I would suggest that following riders should do their own observations and stop if necessary. Maybe the situation on the roundabout changed very quickly. Possible in the circumstances I outline below.

Now, I have noticed an increasing tendency (and I have done this myself), particularly when a major road intersects a lesser one at the roundabout, for drivers to approach the roundabout with the speed they have carried from the main road. They (I) expect to gain instant priority on the roundabout as nothing much joins from the driver's right and they rarely need to stop. Maybe, since cyclists tend to prefer minor roads, this explains the event here. Never experienced it on a bike, but certainly in a car, I have been hooted at and flashed by a car which wasn't even on the roundabout when I pulled out on to it. My feelings tend to be, if you can hoot and flash then you can brake. 

Maybe that is the key to the whole thing. Should vehicles be negotiating roundabouts at such a speed that unexpected events can only be dealt with by emergency stops? Possibly not. 

So, recommendations. 
Cyclists, look for yourself, don't blindly follow a leader.
Drivers, expect to brake if a vulnerable road user appears on a roundabout. In varying circumstances this could be cyclists, pram-pushers, pedestrians, dog-walkers. Remember who is operating the deadly machine, and is responsible for it. There is no such thing as right of way.


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## jefmcg (27 Apr 2016)

glenn forger said:


> The polar bears are moving south and there's talk of them mating with brown bears. The cubs are called growlers.




According to wikipedia
"A *grizzly–polar bear hybrid* (also *pizzly bear*, *polizzly*, *prizzly bear*, *P-Grizzle*, *nanulak*, *Polar-Grizz*[_citation needed_], or *grolar bear*[1][2])"

P-Grizzle!


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## winjim (27 Apr 2016)

jefmcg said:


> According to wikipedia
> "A *grizzly–polar bear hybrid* (also *pizzly bear*, *polizzly*, *prizzly bear*, *P-Grizzle*, *nanulak*, *Polar-Grizz*[_citation needed_], or *grolar bear*[1][2])"
> 
> P-Grizzle!


Fo' shizzle.


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## martint235 (27 Apr 2016)

Thinking about this and my commute, my personal bugbear around roundabouts is that everyone stops now. So driver approaching roundabout from my left sees me 10 yards away and stops. Driver coming towards me stops because he doesn't know what driver 1 is doing next. I stop cos driver 2 is indicating to turn right across me. If only driver 1 would recognise he has priority because he is at the roundabout, I'm not. He doesn't have to cede to me even though I'm on his right.


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## midliferider (2 May 2016)

You know, today I cycled 100km along Tallin to Riga main road, full of articulated trucks and oil tanks driving at high speed. There was no specific cycle lane. Many road cyclists went past me and I was not alone.
It was so good to see how they share the road. 
When will we ever learn to use the road in harmony...


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## simongt (4 May 2016)

User said:


> I find it difficult to believe that any driver on a roundabout (unless it was a very big roundabout) was going at such a speed that an emergency stop was necessary - that just smacks of a lack of observation and anticipation.


 An issue here is that most folk in the driver's position will be thinking / assuming that as he has the legal right of way that anyone approaching the roundabout from the driver's left will do the sensible and legal thing and GIVE WAY TO TRAFFIC ON THE RIGHT.  This causes hesitation / doubt in the driver's mind for a second or so until it's 'kin obvious that said approaching traffic has no intention of giving way to the right, by which time the driver has negotiated several metres of the roundabout and may have to take evasive action to allow for the behavior of said idiots. Let's face it, ALL of us have been in that type of situation occasionally.


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## Apollonius (4 May 2016)

simongt said:


> the legal right of way



What is this? I can find no mention of it in the Highway Code.


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## simongt (4 May 2016)

Okay, it may not be a 'legal requirement', but next time you come to a roundabout, just carry on and see what the tall men with shiny buttons have to say when you're broadsided by someone who's already on the roundabout approaching from your right - !


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## bozmandb9 (4 May 2016)

glenn forger said:


> I am going to start sending emails every time a road user makes me use my brakes. The nerve. May even put it on Twitter. Cant get away with this.


Hilarious. I can just see you taking exactly the same attitude when somebody opens a car door in front of you forcing you to make an emergency stop (or not). Or a car pulling out in front of you on a roundabout forcing you to come to a sudden stop. Or a pedestrian for that matter.


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## shouldbeinbed (4 May 2016)

glenn forger said:


> Apart from the pollution spewed out by his penguin-killing death machine.


Feathers McGraw from Wallace & Gromit, The Penguin gang in Madagascar films, The Penguin in Batman, Pingu is a bit of a git, that penguin in the British Gas adverts breaking into peoples houses vandalising their boilers and trying to sneak out disguised as cleaning utensils. They're evil creatures, anything that keeps their numbers down...

In fact I'm off to gratuitously boil the kettle and order some stuff that needs to be shipped from China


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## uclown2002 (5 May 2016)

peedee said:


> If you're going to cycle like an idiot - at least please don't do it whilst you're leading a group ride - it won't be just you that gets killed.
> 
> *This is to the dozen club idiots who pulled straight out onto a roundabout near Woodside yesterday morning, two and three abreast, without slowing down*. You caused me and the car behind to perform emergency stops. Good job we were awake.
> 
> /rantover


 


peedee said:


> Yes.
> 
> *I was taken by surprise because they came down the inside of a queue of traffic* that was stopped waiting to enter the roundabout. Hence, I didn't see them until the last second.


 
Two or three abreast down the inside of a queue of traffic? Something doesn't add up.


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## User6179 (5 May 2016)

uclown2002 said:


> Two or three abreast down the inside of a queue of traffic? Something doesn't add up.



Two lanes , queue of traffic in right lane going straight on , club in left lane turning left at first exit !?


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## mjr (5 May 2016)

bozmandb9 said:


> Hilarious. I can just see you taking exactly the same attitude when somebody opens a car door in front of you forcing you to make an emergency stop (or not). Or a car pulling out in front of you on a roundabout forcing you to come to a sudden stop. Or a pedestrian for that matter.


I don't know whether @glenn forger does or not, but I avoid riding close enough to car doors for them to be "forcing" me to stop because that's a very bad road position to be in. Similarly, don't go too close to the outside of roundabouts (despite what the highway code says) or pedestrians who may step out (which the highway code gets correct).


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## Ajax Bay (7 May 2016)

mjray said:


> Similarly, don't go too close to the outside of roundabouts (despite what the highway code says)


Interesting. I take the opposite view and approach: I *do* stay towards the outside of a (or the) lane on a roundabout as that puts me squarely in the view of the driver of the car/lorry waiting to pull onto the roundabout, and discourages any 'oh I can slip out here and they'll be able to keep right and leave me room' ideas.


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## mjr (7 May 2016)

Ajax Bay said:


> Interesting. I take the opposite view and approach: I *do* stay towards the outside of a (or the) lane on a roundabout as that puts me squarely in the view of the driver of the car/lorry waiting to pull onto the roundabout, and discourages any 'oh I can slip out here and they'll be able to keep right and leave me room' ideas.


I think we're saying the same thing: be where the driver of an oncoming car would be, where the driver of an approaching car is likely to look, not so close to the edge that they can knock you over if they move too soon.


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