# Steel framed MTBs



## Mr Pig (26 Jun 2008)

I'm going to go and ckeck out a few new bikes, the Rockhopper and Genesis Core but out of left feild comes the Genesis Altitude!

http://www.genesisbikes.co.uk/index.php?bikeID=16&show_bike=TRUE

Cr-Mo steel frame, looks like a lovely bike and is two Kg 'lighter' than the Rockhopper! Anyone out there got or used a steel frame MTB? I like the sound of a steel frame, seems like a good idea to me, but obviosly I won't be able to thrash a shop's bike down a hillside so opinions welcome :0)


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## User482 (26 Jun 2008)

I have a steel framed Breezer of 1992 vintage so I doubt longevity is a problem. Steel is considerably stronger than aluminium, but is also heavier. Without wishing to start another debate on the merits of different frame materials, if you use the bike for its intended purpose (e.g. don't jump off cliffs if you're on a light XC bike) I can't see that you'll have any problems.


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## Flying_Monkey (26 Jun 2008)

If you are going to go steel-framed, you cannot do better than the tried and tested On-one Inbred from Britain's quirkiest MTB company. They are also much cheaper (£160) than the Genesis (not being made from 853, which On-one have tried and don't recommend). Only problem is that they haven't got any in stock right now - call them if I were you.


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## User482 (26 Jun 2008)

Flying_Monkey said:


> If you are going to go steel-framed, you cannot do better than the tried and tested On-one Inbred from Britain's quirkiest MTB company. They are also much cheaper (£160) than the Genesis (not being made from 853, which On-one have tried and don't recommend). Only problem is that they haven't got any in stock right now - call them if I were you.



The original Inbreds were made from 853, do you know why they changed? I rather like the look of the Cotic Soul myself, but they are more expensive.


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## mickle (26 Jun 2008)

User482 said:


> Steel is considerably stronger than aluminium, but is also heavier.



Steel _is_ 'stronger' than aluminum but I don't think you can say that steel frames are stronger than aluminum ones which is what might be inferred from your post.


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## User482 (26 Jun 2008)

mickle said:


> Steel _is_ 'stronger' than aluminum but I don't think you can say that steel frames are stronger than aluminum ones which is what might be inferred from your post.



True enough - the OP seemed to be under the impression that steel might be too weak, and this definitely not the case.


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## Mr Pig (26 Jun 2008)

User482 said:


> True enough - the OP seemed to be under the impression that steel might be too weak, and this definitely not the case.



I'm sure both types of frame will be more than strong enough, what I was thinking of is the more compliant ride of steel.


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## Mr Pig (26 Jun 2008)

I had a look at the in-bred site but I can't see how it's cheaper, they don't sell standard bikes by the look of things? You're also back to the idea of buying a bike without having ridden it. How are you suposed to know what type of stem, bars etc to order without trying the bike?!


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## ColinJ (26 Jun 2008)

Mr Pig said:


> I'm sure both types of frame will be more than strong enough, what I was thinking of is the more compliant ride of steel.


I have a Rock Lobster from Merlin Cycles (Leyland Lancs, not the US Merlin!). Its frame is made of 853 steel. 

I bought my MTB in 2001 and it arrived 2 days after the great Foot and Mouth epidemic started so I wasn't able to ride it off-road for many months... 

Merlin Cycles are selling an updated version of my bike and it looks good value - link.

_'Compliant ride of steel'_? I'm sure that I might trigger off the old debate again, but as far as I'm concerned my steel Basso isn't any more comfortable than my aluminium Cannondale on the road. I can make the Basso unbearable to ride (on rough Yorkshire roads) by pumping the tyres up too hard. I can make the Cannondale comfortable enough by running lower pressures.

As for off-road riding on the Rock Lobster... I ride great big 2.3 inch knobbly tyres and choose tyre pressures that are low enough to be comfortable and high enough to make _snakebites_ a rarity even though I'm pretty heavy. I also have nice plush Marzocchi suspension forks and a USE suspension post so comfort isn't an issue for me.

The amount of 'compliance' you'll get from (suitably set up) tyres and suspension will greatly overshadow that of a frame of any material. 

I don't fancy the catastrophic failure mode of carbon-fibre for off-road use so I wouldn't choose that material. I always fancied titanium but it was more expensive than steel. If you can afford it, why not go for Ti over steel since it has even better properties? Aluminium has to be the best-value option and it is lighter than steel, but I cracked my Al Bianchi road-frame so that rather put me off Al for off-road, even though I'm sure that most people have no problem with it. It'd just be worrying hearing rocks bouncing off the frame tubes on gnarly descents if you didn't trust the material !

*PS* In summary - if I'd had the cash I'd have chosen Ti but I didn't and 853 seemed like a good compromise - I've not regretted it. My MTB is a bit on the heavy side but it is tough and reliable and I've enjoyed riding it.


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## Flying_Monkey (26 Jun 2008)

User482 said:


> The original Inbreds were made from 853, do you know why they changed? I rather like the look of the Cotic Soul myself, but they are more expensive.



The story is on the website somewhere... in the FAQs perhaps. Cotics are lovely - and the Rock Lobsters are great by all accounts. You see a lot of them an XC events. 

Mr Pig - the only things you are going to be able to test ride are readily available commercial and probably aluminium bikes. If you are going to go for a steel hardtail, you pretty much should know what you are looking for already and why you want one. What will be important to you is the geometry and set-up - you can get yourself measured up on a jig in any good bike shop, and if you know what your preferred riding position is, then you can look at the various geometries and set-ups. A good do-it-all basic hardtail MTB frame is going to be highly adjustable anyway - you can change the saddle height, stem lengths, there will be a variety of suspension forks that will be suitable. In short you can make it how you want it - that' why On-one sell the bikes the way that they, and I think Merlin and Cotic do it similarly. 

If you aren't comfortable doing this, or don't understand what I am going on about, you are probably better off sticking with a commercially available steed!


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## Tim Bennet. (26 Jun 2008)

> The amount of 'compliance' you'll get from (suitably set up) tyres and suspension will greatly overshadow that of a frame of any material.


Absolutely.


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## Mr Pig (26 Jun 2008)

Thank you again for the good advice.

I spoke to a guy in the hire shop at Glentress and he rates the Genesis Altitude. He also says they've been using the Tora fork for about a year and a half, they seem bombproof and the Shimano disk brakes on the Altitude are fantastic. All good and I'm looking forward to trying one out at the weekend.

The Rock Lobster looks great but it's too expensive for me. 

A friend of mine has just bought a Viper frame, knowing him it'll be from Chain Reaction and my bet is that it's a carbon one. What worries me is that the Viper carbon frames are literaly half the price of everyone elses carbon frames! I don't know but if it was me and I was going to ride a carbon frame off road I'd want a good one!!


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## Flying_Monkey (26 Jun 2008)

Just one word about carbon off-road frames for anything except XC racing: No!


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## Mr Pig (26 Jun 2008)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Just one word about carbon off-road frames for anything except XC racing: No!



Why's that? Maybe he's not bought one, but I bet he has.


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## Mr Pig (28 Jun 2008)

Well that was a waste of a day!

I was looking for a shop that stocked both the Rockhopper and the Altitude, so that I could try them back to back. I found a shop in Stirling called '*Stuart Wilson Cycles*' who had both so I dragged my wife and two of the kids up there today to try them out.

After chatting to the nice salesman for a while I said 'so can I take the Genesis for a spin then?'. And he said 'No, we don't allow that!'. 

'What??' said a pig. 'That was the whole point of me driving up here'. He said 'You're welcome to ride it round the shop (which isn't that big) but we don't allow people to take bikes outside.

I said 'Every other bike shop I've ever used is happy to let you try bikes'. I've bought about half-a-dozen bikes out of dales in Glasgow and they let you take the different sizes of bike out to make sure you get the right size. But that was Stuart Wilson's policy, and it cost them a sale.

I said 'Well, that's it then. There's no way I'm spending six-hundred pounds on a bike I've never even tried'. It was so frustrating. I'd wasted the day trailing up there, stood right next to the bikes I was aiming to buy and learned nothing. It would've been helpful if they'd at least told me over the phone that when they said I could 'try' the bike they meant only inside the shop!

Pretty pissed off when I got home but I looked up the dealer list again and phoned a shop called *Gear Bikes* in Glasgow. Their attitude couldn't have been more different. They said 'Yeah, of course you can take the Genesis for a run, we're quite near Kelvin Grove Park, you can have good blast and get a proper feel for it in there'. !!

Incidentally, my mate has bought a Viper frame which is made of aluminium but has carbon fibre seat stays. Now I'll be honest, I don't see the point of that. You've still got the weight of aluminium but with the vulnerability of carbon on a mountain bike, kind of the worst of both worlds?

He's done a great job on the build though. Sticking to Deor componants makes it look shop bought and he's made a tidy job of putting it all together, looks great.


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## MichaelM (29 Jun 2008)

I've got a Genesis IO, which is a singlespeed version of the altitude. They are nice frames for the money, maybe lacking in the "image" of say Cotic.

You could ring Sandy Wallace cycles to see if they've got a demo - I know there's an Altitude in the shop window.

Also, On-One are very helpfull, and the inbreds are bloody good frames for not a lot of money. Give the a call/e-mail, they'll give you all the advice you want about size/stem etc etc


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## Mr Pig (29 Jun 2008)

I phoned Sandy Wallace but they seem to be closed today. I looked at the On-One site but they're too expensive and most of their frames are out of stock. Plus I wouldn't be able to try the bike first, bit of a downer if you built a bike up yourself and found you didn't like it! ;0)

Image don't bother me at all. I want a bike to ride, not pose on ;0)


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## Jonathan M (29 Jun 2008)

Do Cove still have a steel hardtailin their line up?

A few years ago I looked back to back at the Merlin Rock Lobster & a Cove Handjob at Leisure Lakes, and in terms of frame only price I'm afraid to say that while there was only £30 or so in it, the Merlin was a lot rougher around the welds, and also sizing was a bit odd - one to try before you buy for certain. 

I ended up buying the Cove frame, becuase it was on a sale weekend at LL, but I'm afraid to say it hasn't had the use it should have.Might change that this summer,or else it'll probably appear on the bay!


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## barq (30 Jun 2008)

I built up a steel hardtail from an On One frame and parts I had lying around. Pretty nice, I'd happily buy from them again.

Another alternative: I'd never normally recommend Halfords, but they do stock the Voodoo Wanga. Not sure what their test ride policy is but it might be worth a thought. If I recall correctly Voodoo's designer used to work for Kona and designed some of their classic steel hardtails.


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## Mr Pig (30 Jun 2008)

The Voodoo is £800 which is more than I've got to spend. Although knowing Halfords you'll get it for £2:50 in the sale!

One of the things I like about the Altitude range is that all three steel frames have exactly the same geometry. So you can buy the cheapest one then upgrate to the better frame later on. The top frame costs £350 on its own.



> I'm afraid to say 'the cove' hasn't had the use it should have.



Well you could always sell it to me? ;0)


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## MichaelM (30 Jun 2008)

Mr Pig said:


> One of the things I like about the Altitude range is that all three steel frames have exactly the same geometry. So you can buy the cheapest one then upgrate to the better frame later on. The top frame costs £350 on its own.




What a barking idea!

Other than cost/budget, why would you buy the cheapest one - with associated cheapest wheels, forks, components - with the intention of upgrading the frame at a later date?

My IO is the 520 frame - I wouldn't bother upgrading it to the 853 now that I've got it. The 520 frames are perfectly decent frames.


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## Mr Pig (30 Jun 2008)

The Altitude 00 is also the 520 frame, isn't the 853 frame a lot lighter? The full bike is a LOT lighter, although I know the components will have a lot to do with that. 

I can't aford to buy the better frame then buy the bits needed to go with it. Cost/Budget is the only reason some of us need! ;0)

As the frames have the same geometry you could change the frame, as well as other components, without altering the fit of the bike. Isn't it just like upgrading any other part of a bike?


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## Flying_Monkey (30 Jun 2008)

Mr Pig said:


> As the frames have the same geometry you could change the frame, as well as other components, without altering the fit of the bike. Isn't it just like upgrading any other part of a bike?



It isn't really - that is rebuilding the entire bike. You should get the best frame you can afford and keep it. And with a steel frame, you keep it until it rusts away. It isn't a disposable item...


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## Mr Pig (30 Jun 2008)

Flying_Monkey said:


> It isn't really - that is rebuilding the entire bike.



So? You're just swapping the bits over, not a big deal. 

I agree about buying the best frame you can afford but it doesn't make sense to stick with that frame forever if it's not that great a frame. I have a Hardrock right now, which was a good buy at the time, but I wouldn't see the point in fitting top components to the Hardrock frame. I think you'd be better with lesser components on a better frame. Don't you agree?


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## Flying_Monkey (30 Jun 2008)

Mr Pig said:


> I think you'd be better with lesser components on a better frame. Don't you agree?



Yeah, but that was my point, not yours!


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## Mr Pig (30 Jun 2008)

But I can't afford to put components on a better frame, which I thought I had explained? If I buy a £350 frame I can't buy the rest of the bits for £250. Could you?


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## Jonathan M (30 Jun 2008)

If you've only got £600 then you'll struggle to buy a decent frame and equip it. 

The theory of buy the best frame possible and put cheaper bits on it makes a bit more sense than buy a cheap frame, put cheap bits on it, then upgrade the frame later - you won't get much back for a second hand frame, plus by the time you are going to replace the frame then various parts will also need replacing - headset, BB, chain, maybe cassette & chainset even.

Have you thought about new frame, components off the Hardrock to get you mobile, then replace bits as you can?


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## MichaelM (30 Jun 2008)

Jonathathan beat me to it....

Buy an Inbred frame, fit a headset, and buy any parts that don't fit from the Hardrock (maybe seatpost & front mech). 

Count change from the price of a Genesis 00.

Upgrade wheels/forks.

Sorted :-)

Oh, and there are lots of Inbred frames in stock - not sliding dropout is what you want.


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## Mr Pig (30 Jun 2008)

I know you're trying to help, and it is a good idea, but I have thought about this.

My Hardrock already needs new parts, which is one of the reasons why I'm going to buy a new bike. The chain, gears and dérailleurs are very worn. They still work ok but with the use I give them I'd have to replace them relatively soon. The wheel rims are also pretty worn (V brakes) as are the calliper pivots.

Were I to fit these parts to a new frame I'd have to replace them before long. Plus I don't want to buy a frame with 'V' brake lugs and be left with them when I fitted disks later. To avoid that I'd have to buy both disk brakes and disk-compatible wheels from the off. Those two items alone would take the cost up to nearly £600.

While it could be done...just, it would result in a heavily compromised 'new' bike and importantly a non-functional Hardrock. If I buy a whole brand new bike the Hardrock gets to live on, which is ideal as my eldest son is in need of a bigger bike. Giving it to him saves the cost of buying him a new one, and as he uses his bike so little the worn transmition will probably do him for ages. 

I'm not taking chances on it though. I'm replacing the full braking system with new, getting the fork checked and serviced and checking the frame for cracks. The whole bike will be stripped bare and checked out, but it'll still cost a lot less than a new bike. 

He's quite happy. He's tried the bike and can't believe how nippy it is. I'm quite looking forward to tidying the bike up for him, it'll be getting more attention than it got when I was using it ;0)


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## MichaelM (1 Jul 2008)

In which case buy a Genesis 00.

The frame is good - once you've got it you won't really want to upgrade (at least until you have a large surplus of cash/son leaves home). Deore kit is perfectly good (I use XT due to being a snob - not because I can tell the difference!), One of my bikes has aftermarket deore brakes - they're better than twice the price Hope Minis. The new RockShox forks I believe are pretty much the same internally through the range - Toras may not have external floodgate - but they have the same internals higher range forks.

Buy it, rag it, upgrade things as they wear. 

If the hardrock needs new rims/chain etc take a look at Merlin cycles and consider transferring the wheels/drivetrain from the Genesis to the Hardrock. You can pick up HTII chainsets/wheels relatively cheap. (also check out Chain Reaction).

Now go and buy the Genesis - you know you want to.


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## Mr Pig (1 Jul 2008)

MichaelM said:


> In which case buy a Genesis 00.



It's top of my list and I hope it's nice to ride. I am going to try the Rockhopper too though.

I totally agree with you about the spec of the 00, it looks very well thought out, although the Tora is the basic version without lockout or air damping. Those brakes are suposed to be superb, everyone says so. Just a shame that both bikes are heavier than the bike I have now, although being three-stone over weight I can't moan too much ;0)

The Hardrock wheels will be fine for now. They're still dead straight and they've taken a fair pounding over the years. I was planning to buy an extra set of wheels for the new bike though, so that I could have a set with road tyres on. Where's the cheapest place to get wheels from? The Woolly Hat Shop looks cheap, have you tried them? 

Hopefully try the bikes this weekend and let you know. Incidenty, demand for the Genesis Atitude has been so high that Ridgback have run out of all but the base 00 model.


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## ColinJ (1 Jul 2008)

Mr Pig said:


> The Hardrock wheels will be fine for now. They're still dead straight and they've taken a fair pounding over the years. I was planning to buy an extra set of wheels for the new bike though, so that I could have a set with road tyres on.


I had that idea once and bought a second pair of wheels for my old MTB. A year later I decided to put the slick-shod wheels on the bike for a while, only to discover that...








... the rims were different shapes and the V-brakes needed major adjustments every time I swapped the wheels - not really very convenient ! I'd suggest buying wheels using the same type of rim as your originals. I'm assuming that you don't have disk brakes of course.


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## bigguy (3 Jul 2008)

Many years ago, having no bike, I bought a rock bottom basic 'Concept Leader' light steel frame no suspension mountain bike to take the kids out for rides and for short commutes to the shop etc. Since then it has been up forest tracks, across fields, thrown in the back of work vans, car boots, etc. It has had 4 sets of tyres fitted and new brake cables recently. its still going strong, dispite what everyone foretold me at the time i bought it, ( it was a piece of shoot..It wouldnt last!) I love that bike, cos its one that can be abused and still does the job! I know its not fancy but has to be appreciated for what it is... like a land rover.. so to speak.

My advice... go for what you fancy... and it doesnt have to be expensive!


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## Mr Pig (3 Jul 2008)

I'm hoping to buy a bike that will last me indefinitely. I don't see why it shouldn't. 

I think the new bike 'will' have disk brakes, unless I go for the Rockhopper in which case I might get the base model, but I'll probably spring for the disk one.


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