# Britain is built for cars



## User76022 (25 Nov 2018)

Do we think there's any real liklihood of this changing in our lifetimes? 

For my commute to work, the car is the only practical option. Sure I could cover the 30 miles by getting a bus or riding my bike the 2 miles to the nearest train station, where I could get the first of 2 trains, before walking the 3 miles from the station to work. But its hardly practical to do every day. 

Or my frequent leisure bike rides. I like to plan loop routes. I really don't like riding to somewhere just to come back the way I came. But in planning such loops, I like to factor in the liklihood of actually not being killed. That rules out many sections of would be loops. 

Worse than all of this, I think about the world my kids are growing up in. I want then to enjoy cycling. But even some of the routes I'll do are strictly off limits if my kids are with me. For example, there's some good routes in some nearby woods. My eldest son and I rode up there yesterday. Our route there was very safe. Mostly designated cycle paths, with pedestrian crossings on the two busy roads we had to cross. When it was time to come back, I considered the 2 or 3 mile fun descent on offer to us in the woods, that would have brought us out at a different entrance to the woods, then another 2 miles of descent on quiet roads. But then no, then we'd have to cross a busy dual carriageway.

That same dual carriageway has a footbridge over it to get to the entrance of the woods that we used to get in, but at the other end, you're on your own. Every man for himself.


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## Drago (25 Nov 2018)

It won't change. 

The government think economic expansion relies on submerging the land under ever increasing roads in the name of "improving capacity". That is a pointless, never ending, economically suicidal endeavour. If I did things the Government way then when my dustbin was full, I'd simply place another dustbin next to it and fill that one up. And then another. Eventually this reaches a limit where it simply becomes impossible to sustain, yet that's what the government are doing with our roads. 

The sensible person empties the bin when it becomes too full to be useful and considers a different strategy for dealing with the rubbish, such as recycling, repurposing, or simply creating less rubbish in the first place.

I can see some changes around the edges with fossil fuel depletion, electric cars, self driving technologies, etc, but we won't see large scale wholesale changes until the government's attitudes to economic expansion is revisited. That doesn't look likely to happen in my lifetime.

Never say never, but I dont think things will improve markedly in my lifetime, and will probably worsen. Meanwhile, an increasingly bloated population will put more strain on the NHS and councill services, but the government will still refuse to address the cause, and will continue to pour petrol on the fire and wonder why the flames get bigger.


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## Globalti (25 Nov 2018)

People who frequent web fora like this generally forget that the rest of the population are mostly too thick or too selfish to be concerned about the effects of their car obsession.

If we could undo what Beeching did to branch railways in the 60s the new housing estates growing up around outlying towns and villages could now provide sufficient passengers to make the lines viable again. Then all we would need would be to adopt the Dutch model of keeping a cheap town bike at each end of the journey and using the train for the long-distance bit in the middle. This has the unintended consequence of mountains of abandoned or lost or forgotten bikes around transport hubs but that's a small price to pay.


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## Moodyman (25 Nov 2018)

I think things will change, certainly in the big cities. Due to ever increasing traffic congestion cycling has been promoted as a viable alternative round here (Leeds-Bradford). We have the Superhighway, development of the local canal path and several cycle paths to avoid the busiest roads. There has been an upsurge in cycle commuting.

But, for this to work Dutch style, cycling has to be seen as means of getting around and not simply an exercise/ leisure activity.

London has seen a huge transformation, and I expect other cities are playing catch up.


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## Slick (25 Nov 2018)

Moodyman said:


> I think things will change, certainly in the big cities. Due to ever increasing traffic congestion cycling has been promoted as a viable alternative round here (Leeds-Bradford). We have the Superhighway, development of the local canal path and several cycle paths to avoid the busiest roads. There has been an upsurge in cycle commuting.
> 
> But, for this to work Dutch style, cycling has to be seen as means of getting around and not simply an exercise/ leisure activity.
> 
> London has seen a huge transformation, and I expect other cities are playing catch up.


I agree, I think things are changing all the time, not fast enough for me or most on here but they are changing. More and more people are becoming increasingly aware of pollution and alternative choices available to us all. 

Could you take the bike on the train for example and instead of getting the second train, cycle?


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## Globalti (25 Nov 2018)

Folding bikes are limited in their use. 

The last few times I've been to that London I've been impressed at the cleanliness of the air. It must make for more pleasant cycling than when I commuted by bike there in the early 80s.


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## classic33 (25 Nov 2018)

Slick said:


> I agree, I think things are changing all the time, not fast enough for me or most on here but they are changing. More and more people are becoming increasingly aware of pollution and alternative choices available to us all.
> 
> Could you take the bike on the train for example and instead of getting the second train, cycle?


Depends on Northerns attitude, with regards the post quoted. They are looking at no wheeled transport on their services. Moreso when the new rolling stock is safe to use.

To @User76022, is there any reason why the distance is too far, or does it come down to route as well?


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## Phaeton (25 Nov 2018)

User76022 said:


> Do we think there's any real liklihood of this changing in our lifetimes?


My lifetime I doubt it, within my grandchildren's hopefully, or there won't be any world left for my great great grandchildren


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## Slick (25 Nov 2018)

classic33 said:


> Depends on Northerns attitude, with regards the post quoted. They are looking at no wheeled transport on their services. Moreso when the new rolling stock is safe to use.
> 
> To @User76022, is there any reason why the distance is too far, or does it come down to route as well?


Didn't know that. As far as I know you can take a bike on just about any train up here but you do have to watch some commuter services.


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## classic33 (25 Nov 2018)

Slick said:


> Didn't know that. As far as I know you can take a bike on just about any train up here but you do have to watch some commuter services.


That should have been peak hour services. First thing till 9am & 4pm - 6:30pm(possibly 7pm).

My error.

Parent company Arriva looking to do the same on all services they operate.


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## Johnno260 (25 Nov 2018)

I can’t see it changing anytime soon, attitudes towards cyclists sucks, I get ridiculed at work for cycling.

Electric cars may change things a little, but I can’t see that we have the capacity within the national grid to charge a huge amount of electric cars, and these are still cars.

Railways and cycling each end is difficult as many rural stations and lines are gone.


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## User76022 (25 Nov 2018)

classic33 said:


> To @User76022, is there any reason why the distance is too far, or does it come down to route as well?


Sorry, I'm not sure I understand what you're asking?

If you kean the commute, I think 30 miles is a bit much. That's not 30 miles round trip. 30 miles each way. It would mean if I were fit enough to sustain my best average speed, twice per day, 5 days per week, it would be over 2 hours each way. 

If you meant the loop route I wanted to do with my son, distance was no problem, but just the nature of one road we'd have to get across. There would be no way round it other than either go back by the same route, which we did, or add on about 10 more miles of road work to get to the next point where you can safely cross with kids on bikes.


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## pjd57 (25 Nov 2018)

Too many people are car bound.
Bring this up on any other non cycling forum and it soon descends into the usual abuse of cycling/ cyclists, even if you don't mention them.


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## Racing roadkill (25 Nov 2018)

This isn’t Holland, never will be.


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## lane (25 Nov 2018)

I'll tell you what's happening where I live. Certain streets do not meet the EU pollution targets. Plan is to transfer traffic to other other nearby routes and spread the pollution around a bit more so all roads are below the threshold. No real aim to reduce pollution overall. Bad enough but the staggering thing is as part of the plan thy are removing cycling infrustructure to allow cars to travel with less delay. I am not very optimistic.


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## User76022 (25 Nov 2018)

pjd57 said:


> Too many people are car bound.
> Bring this up on any other non cycling forum and it soon descends into the usual abuse of cycling/ cyclists, even if you don't mention them.


But that's the point isn't it. Too many people are 'car bound' at least partly because Britain is designed for cars. 

If we had laws that were stronger and more favourable to cycling for example, and a better infrastructure to support cycling, then perhaps fewer people would be 'car bound'.


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## NorthernDave (25 Nov 2018)

The government (whoever is in charge) make too much money from the motor car to ever seriously consider reducing reliance on them.

As @Moodyman mentions upthread, we've had the hideously expensive Cycle Super Highway (CSH) put in, and if I wanted to I could virtually cycle from my door into Leeds and then on to Bradford on it. I won't though as huge sections of it are either shared path and too narrow, or frankly crap and should never have been signed off. 
Sections where you're forced into the door gap against parked cars, road intersections which are crossed with several toucan crossings, none of which link up so you have to stop at all of them. Bits where it simply doesn't fit so they've painted a narrow cycle lane on the side of a 40 mph dual carriageway to link other bits together. Add in the fact that it's not even the most direct route and you start to see the problem.
Get to the centre of Leeds and it just stops - no signs, nothing. They are now working on putting provision in place, but guess what - more toucan crossings and work proceeds at a glacial place. The city centre section wasn't included in the original back of a fag packet plan, apparently.

If I want to use public transport (and provision, on paper at least, is fairly good around here) then buses and trains don't tie up - First runs the buses, Arriva the local trains and the PTA are unable to get any sort of joined up service or ticketing plan in place. And as @classic33 has mentioned, the railway seem determined to make taking a bike on the train as difficult as possible.

Using the car to work takes 45 minutes, public transport (on the occasions it works) takes double that.


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## Globalti (25 Nov 2018)

The description above sounds terrible but if you've ever attended a county council or even parish council meeting and witnessed the arse-covering, the dithering, misinterpretation and obfuscation that goes on you'll understand why it takes years to get stuff changed. 

I once attended a meeting of my local parish council and suggested they set up a website, which all the councillors thought a splendid suggestion. They've just opened it, about five years later.


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## classic33 (25 Nov 2018)

When it's actually quicker by bike than either public transport or private vehicle, to and from the same points, you see the advantage.

The advantage is one thing. Getting more people to actually cycle is harder.

Cars are seen as just as essential to modern travel as central hearing is in the modern household. Anything else is outdated and too much hardship for most.


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## Drago (25 Nov 2018)

No public tranport to my village any more. The local government stopped subsidising it to save money, while the national government pays extra for increased pollution, roadbuilding and maintenance. Duh.


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## screenman (25 Nov 2018)

Motability leases around 700,000 cars to disabled people, it would be sad if they come off the road.


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## Drago (25 Nov 2018)

I always make exception for disabled motorists who genuinely have little alternative when I'm off ranting about motorists, pollution, and general 4 wheels bone idle laziness.


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## Milzy (25 Nov 2018)

I’m not cycling 10 miles there & 10 back everyday. It would become junk miles & after a hard days slog just awful. Also it’s quite dangerous in the winter. 
I’m driving a 1.2 petrol so I’m not going to feel too guilty.
I like to cycle my own routes my own way, if I cycled to work I’d not want to go out in the evening or bother with Zwift. I have 3 car spaces at my house & it’s a cheap car to run. 
I often think a KTM Duke 125 motorcycle would be a lot of fun though.


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## Milzy (25 Nov 2018)

Drago said:


> I always make exception for disabled motorists who genuinely have little alternative when I'm off ranting about motorists, pollution, and general 4 wheels bone idle laziness.


Like fat Jim who lives near me, drives 60 metres to the shop for a case of Carling the lazy slob. His car is a Range Rover which makes it even worse.


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## JtB (25 Nov 2018)

Basingstoke near where I live is like any other ghastly new town; business parks for earning, retail parks for spending, swing/leisure parks for playing and housing estates for sleeping, all interconnected by dual carriageways for driving. It may look a dream on an architect or town planner’s drawing board but the reality is that it’s a soulless nightmare of a place to live and I don’t see that changing anytime soon. Basingstoke’s only redeeming feature is the surrounding countryside for cycling.


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## Drago (25 Nov 2018)

Milzy said:


> I’m not cycling 10 miles there & 10 back everyday. It would become junk miles & after a hard days slog just awful. Also it’s quite dangerous in the winter.
> I’m driving a 1.2 petrol so I’m not going to feel too guilty.
> I like to cycle my own routes my own way, if I cycled to work I’d not want to go out in the evening or bother with Zwift. I have 3 car spaces at my house & it’s a cheap car to run.
> I often think a KTM Duke 125 motorcycle would be a lot of fun though.



I used to cycle commute (between 8 and 18 miles each way, depending on where I was stationed) and rarely felt like passing on an evening ride or a weekend trip out on the bike. I was just a normal Joe in his 30s and 40s, didn't feel the need to make cycle commuting or cycling pleasure exclusive of one another.


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## Johnno260 (25 Nov 2018)

I frequently do a partial cycle commute, the fast dangerous roads I use the car, I stop in a village close to the main town where I work take the bike out the boot and cycle in.

On a major plus what takes me 25-30mins due to traffic takes me sometimes 10mins by bike.

I know I’m still using a car, but the traffics choked high pollution roads I’m not contributing.


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## Ming the Merciless (25 Nov 2018)

screenman said:


> Motability leases around 700,000 cars to disabled people, it would be sad if they come off the road.



Who will make less than 0.1% of all journeys


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## screenman (25 Nov 2018)

YukonBoy said:


> Who will make less than 0.1% of all journeys



Maybe but that 0.1% can be very important.


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## Drago (25 Nov 2018)

By and large britain is actually very badly designed for cars, and the roads in much of the south are over capacity. It's just the lazy arriss majority that make the car the default transport option, and that's despite our road network, not because of it.


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## Ming the Merciless (25 Nov 2018)

screenman said:


> Maybe but that 0.1% can be very important.



Point is they can still make those jouneys. It is removing as much if the other 99.9% as possible. For instance I have seen a figure that approx 90% of trips are less than five miles. Ideal for bike distance trips.


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## screenman (25 Nov 2018)

YukonBoy said:


> Point is they can still make those jouneys. It is removing as much if the other 99.9% as possible. For instance I have seen a figure that approx 90% of trips are less than five miles. Ideal for bike distance trips.



I completely agree, I hate seeing half a mile of cars parked outside our small village school at school run times.


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## Drago (25 Nov 2018)

I went to a fundraising bazaar thing in our community centre today. The community centre is about 1/3 of the way along the village.

Now, our village is barely a third of a mile long. Even at a leisurely pace taking time to let Muttley sniff and wee it takes about 12 minutes to walk from one end to the other. 

The car park at the community centre was full, and the lemmings were lining up on the kerb outside. Half of those inside were fat bloaters I can't think why.


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## User76022 (25 Nov 2018)

Drago said:


> By and large britain is actually very badly designed for cars, and the roads in much of the south are over capacity. It's just the lazy arriss majority that make the car the default transport option, and that's despite our road network, not because of it.


I wondered how far this thread would get before it became blatantly prejudiced against car drivers.

For the record, I drive my car, sometimes for fun when I don't even need to, and I don't feel even the slightest tinge of guilt when I do so.

That out the way, I actually disagree with the implication that most people are fundamentally lazy. There is an abundance of evidence that while although of course some are lazy, it's not the majority. The thriving fitness industry is proof of that. 

Some people are genuinely lazy. But many are simply brainwashed. I wonder how many here have ever applied for a job, any job, and not been asked if they have a full clean driving licence. Then there's the fear factor. I used to live and work in a city. My work was a measly 2 miles from my house. When I first moved there for the job, I'd get the bus to work. I was frequently late, as the bus would either be late, not turn up, or drive straight past because it was too full. So I started to walk it. Great, until I witnessed several acts of violence in the rough patch I had to walk through, and was even threatened myself once, just for being there. So, I considered my bike, and I considered the absolutely crazy city centre traffic. So I finally concluded, I'd rather be in a steel box than a wooden box, and started taking my car. Ironically, the local authority, having realised that patch of town didn't really work well, invested millions in a revamp. I saw the plans. Not a single metre of new cycle path. So I started a bit of a one man campaign, pointing out they have a one off chance to get this right. They just argued that the city already has so many thousand miles of cycle path or some such.


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## Drago (25 Nov 2018)

I am a car driver, so any prejudice is well considered and observed. I am a member of the group that I criticise.

However, I drive the smallest, least polluting, least impactful to manufacture car I can, and I drive it as little as possible (about 1400 miles last year, and nearly a thousand of those were Search and Rescue related - potentially life saving duties).

The reason so many cyclists die is because of the "rather in a tin box.." attitude you illustrate. That doesn't avoid the problem, it actually creates it. You choose to become part of the problem, to add to it, to perpetuate it.

Instead of whittling on about prejudice, I try to set an example. Maybe you could try it? This is a cycling forum, after all.


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## User76022 (25 Nov 2018)

Drago said:


> You choose to become part of the problem, to add to it, to perpetuate it.


That much I can't deny. But that's because as much as I'd like to see a more sensible and holistic approach to transportation, work and leisure, I'm not prepared to give my life for it.


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## lane (25 Nov 2018)

It's not always easy or practicable though. Easier when retired of course to do little mileage. As noted up thread clean driving licence required for lots of jobs. My job I am required to travel between locations and expected to be able to drive if there is no public transport. I used to cycle with someone who was a social worker - had to drive to work in the city which took loads longer than cycling but was required to have her car at work in case she needed it.


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## Ming the Merciless (25 Nov 2018)

Indeed stop making excuses for driving stupidly short distances in a tin box.


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## Drago (25 Nov 2018)

User76022 said:


> That much I can't deny. But that's because as much as I'd like to see a more sensible and holistic approach to transportation, work and leisure, I'm not prepared to give my life for it.



That is, if I may respectfully say so, rot. That's an excuse, not a reason. The reason we're in this situation because of people that trot out that excuse. 

I spent several years of my career scraping tin box drivers limbs, organs and occasionally brain matter off the tarmac - your attitude didn't do them any favours.

By cycling you actually increase your lifespan by several years. You're exchanging the near certainty of an increased lifespan for the massive unlikelihood of dying on two wheels. Simple statistics shows your excuses for what they are I'm afraid.


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## User76022 (25 Nov 2018)

Drago said:


> That is, if I may respectfully say so, rot. That's an excuse, not a reason. The reason we're in this situation because of people that trot out that excuse.


If I may respectfully say so, your ideas of right and wrong are not the final authority. Unless you've experienced every conceivable situation, you have no right to judge others.


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## mudsticks (25 Nov 2018)

A lot of it is apathy, combined with generalised fear.

Cycling to commute still seems to have this slightly earnest - lefty image around it. 

When we know, it can be fun, when drivers aren't being thoughtless idiots. 

And it doesnt really rain as much in the UK as some people think. 

But there does seem. to be a massive lack of civility, on our roads all round. 

"My journey is more important than anyone elses"

Seems to be the de facto attitude. 

And a lot of our roads are too narrow to accommodate everyone comfortably. 

The infernal combustion engine is still King, while fuel is so relatively cheap, and the environmental effects of burning all those fossil fuels is still a 'green fringe' issue - rather than arguably, the most important issue of our time.


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## Globalti (25 Nov 2018)

When i lived in France I was 2 kms from my office along pleasant, flat, leafy boulevards yet I drove very day for two years. It never occurred to me to walk or cycle, I just kidded myself that I needed the car for work. 

There's another reason why we prefer to sit in traffic jams, which is antisocial behaviour. Everybody has had the experience of being stuck in a bus or a train with a bunch of rowdy hooligans and said to themselves "Never again... next time I'll take the car!"


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## Ming the Merciless (25 Nov 2018)

Indeed many like User76022 like to cause traffic jams. Doing their part.


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## I like Skol (25 Nov 2018)

Am I the only one to see the elephant in the room?



User76022 said:


> For my commute to work, the car is the only practical option. Sure I could cover the 30 miles by getting a bus or riding my bike the 2 miles to the nearest train station, where I could get the first of 2 trains, before walking the 3 miles from the station to work. But its hardly practical to do every day.


A 30 mile impractical commute. Either you bought a house too far from work, or accepted a job with an unreasonable commute, and now you are whining about how driving 60 miles a day is screwing up the planet but is you only option?
The solution seems obvious to me, but may mean making some sacrifices for your cause. Or you could carry on as you are just paying lip service to the issue and continue putting the blame on anyone else but yourself.....


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## snorri (25 Nov 2018)

User76022 said:


> That much I can't deny. But that's because as much as I'd like to see a more sensible and holistic approach to transportation, work and leisure, I'm not prepared to give my life for it.


You don't need to give your life for it, you just need to devote time and energy to campaigning for motorists to pay the full costs to government of their motoring habit and improvements to public transport.


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## boydj (25 Nov 2018)

User76022 said:


> I wondered how far this thread would get before it became blatantly prejudiced against car drivers.
> 
> For the record, I drive my car, sometimes for fun when I don't even need to, and I don't feel even the slightest tinge of guilt when I do so.
> 
> ...



Far too many car drivers just fail to see or contemplate any alternative to driving, no matter how short the distance. It may not be laziness, it's more likely a complete blind spot to alternatives. A couple of examples :

I have witnessed somebody get their car out of a garage, drive ~200 metres to the local primary school, then return and park outside their house. They would have been quicker walking the child to school, not to mention setting the child's attitude to travelling short distances.

At the local David Lloyd gym you'll see people drive around the car park looking for a space as close to the building as possible before attending their fitness class.


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## Slick (25 Nov 2018)

Your not kidding. I was visiting the MIL today and read this.

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/3536813/frank-mcavennie-column-scottish-sun-cyclists-blast/


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## mudsticks (25 Nov 2018)

Years ago when I was a jobbing gardener i used to cycle six miles to a clients house, spend about three hours walking up and down her lawn pushing a mower, then cycle home again..

At some point during the morning she would come out to give me a cheque for my trouble, before jumping in her 4wd to drive to the gym.

Nice little earner - and the biscuits weren't too bad either


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## classic33 (25 Nov 2018)

User76022 said:


> I wondered how far this thread would get before it became blatantly prejudiced against car drivers.
> 
> For the record, I drive my car, sometimes for fun when I don't even need to, and I don't feel even the slightest tinge of guilt when I do so.
> 
> ...


Have you ever considered why there are so many gyms nowadays.

We have less actual physical activity in our everyday lives. If we were to increase the physical activity, maybe there'd be fewer gyms open.

We'd also be removing the fashion behind gyms.


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## Globalti (26 Nov 2018)

Look at any old film from as recently as the 70s and you'll hardly see a fat person. Even Police officers look quite fit.


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## mudsticks (26 Nov 2018)

Globalti said:


> Look at any old film from as recently as the 70s and you'll hardly see a fat person. Even Police officers look quite fit.



You got a thing about people in uniforms then?

We've become addicted to refined carbohydrates in all forms - including sugar - and the hydrocarbons we put in our vehicles.

I used to walk, or cycle my kids all of less than a mile to their primary school - and was often told how 'brave' I was to do it.. The other parents often said they wouldn't do it because the roads were so dangerous with "all the cars" 

There seems to be a distinct inability to link cause and effect nowadays - what we probably need is a few more studies to understand what's really going on here.


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## MontyVeda (26 Nov 2018)

Racing roadkill said:


> This isn’t Holland, never will be.


This isn't the USA either... that's a country that really is built for cars. In comparison to the USA, the UK is a mecca for cycling


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## Johnno260 (26 Nov 2018)

MontyVeda said:


> This isn't the USA either... that's a country that really is built for cars. In comparison to the USA, the UK is a mecca for cycling



This is quite true, when I visited New Jersey for work, they were horrified I walked from the hotel to the offices there, all of about 500m.... they had organised a car to pick me up lol


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## Cavalol (26 Nov 2018)

Things will definitely change (for the better, for cyclists) in towns and cities but to me there’s s couple of other issues.
Firstly, (and I’d buy one myself, so not slating them for the sake of it) you can’t really hear electric cars, so would think we’ll see more accidents with cyclists and pedestrians.
Secondly, can’t see them spending to widen a-roads to help us. The point made about dangerous roads is very valid, I expect we all have routes we’d love to cycle but it’s just not safe to do so.


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## Johnno260 (26 Nov 2018)

Cavalol said:


> Things will definitely change (for the better, for cyclists) in towns and cities but to me there’s s couple of other issues.
> Firstly, (and I’d buy one myself, so not slating them for the sake of it) you can’t really hear electric cars, so would think we’ll see more accidents with cyclists and pedestrians.
> Secondly, can’t see them spending to widen a-roads to help us. The point made about dangerous roads is very valid, I expect we all have routes we’d love to cycle but it’s just not safe to do so.



There are a few electric cars near me and you're right you can't hear them at all, I know you should look but I have seen people step out in front of electric cars in car parks numerous times, and its due to them no hearing a car so not looking.

One electric car driving guy who I didn't move over for very quickly was quite nice, at the traffic lights I said sorry I didn't hear him, he said they should put a speaker on them to make some noise, I said if I'm in front of him in the future please just a little toot on the horn to let me know he is there, which he now does every time.


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## Globalti (26 Nov 2018)

In many countries people drive everywhere because they feel unsafe walking thanks to street crime. My colleague in Lagos says his shoes never wear out. There's also the danger of unlit streets and open storm drains. My cycling buddy fell in one in India, up to his neck in crap


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## mudsticks (26 Nov 2018)

[QUOTE 5452752, member: 9609"]Not quite, we're always about 20 years behind and very eager to copy them. 

cars are a catastrophy and the world is obsessed by them. We have even put one in space to circle the solar system for ever - bbc link- I guess it will serve as a sign to any future alien visitors that there was once a civilisation here that destroyed itself with a pointless 4 wheeled obsession[/QUOTE]

I think it was Ghandi who quipped back, when questioned as to what he thought about "Western Civilisation"

"That sounds like a _very _good idea"

We have enormous amounts of clever tech, and 'scientific knowledge'

But woeful amounts of 'wisdom' when it comes to putting them to good use for the benefit of everyone, rather than the mega profits of the few - I'm always hoping, that at some point enough of us will wake up to the fact that we've taken a massively wrong turning, in terms of always chasing short term gain, over long term wellbeing.

Sometimes hope is all you have 


whatever you political 'color'
This raised a hollow laugh for me

https://outabouter.com/2018/10/16/e...by-conservatives/?fbclid=IwAR1nTXBXD5zBvOMLVn


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## MartinQ (26 Nov 2018)

Just a (quiet) shout out for Boardman who has been working hard recently to do just this in Manchester.
https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...g-walking-masterplan-routes-chorlton-14930463
Got to admire his ability to keep calm and rational on social media (twitter) about this scheme :-).


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## mudsticks (26 Nov 2018)

MartinQ said:


> Just a (quiet) shout out for Boardman who has been working hard recently to do just this in Manchester.
> https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...g-walking-masterplan-routes-chorlton-14930463
> Got to admire his ability to keep calm and rational on social media (twitter) about this scheme :-).



Yes especially given that it must be such a deeply personal subject for him..

I avoid twitter where i can - it looks like it often sinks to the very lowest common denominator - in terms of personal interactions.


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## classic33 (26 Nov 2018)

Dogtrousers said:


> I think the problem is that reluctant box ticking and really rubbish facilities is probably the best we're ever going to get. And I suspect that any targets or standards will be eroded over the coming years and even the reluctant box ticking may go away.
> 
> If it changes (and it _will _change, but not necessarily for the better) it won't be driven by the irrelevant "cycling and walking commissioners". It will be driven by changes in the energy market, and in attitudes to ownership versus service models. More electric cars, more automation, less car ownership more services in the Zipcar/Uber mould. More home deliveries, fewer in town stores. Quite what impact these will have I don't know, but cycling/walking will be absolutely at the back of the queue, apart from a few "quirky" brands who will make a big deal of things like electric cargo bikes for delivering niche high markup goods.


I took the old washer down to the recycling centre, then went to pick its replacement up. I wasn't paying for removal or delivery, when I could do both myself.


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## Johnno260 (26 Nov 2018)

I think a lot of the issue with cycling is it’s perception, people think it’s odd. 

In my office when I commute or partially commute I’m ridiculed, they honestly can’t grasp the advantage as I pass them all when they’re stuck in traffic. 

I think it’s also seen as a poor mans mode of transportation. 

When the talk of holiday came up and I said where we planned to go all I got was puzzled looks, as it was booked with cycling in mind as well as being family friendly, mountains and lakes perfection to me. 

They honestly couldn’t grasp why I wasn’t in a resort, and why I wanted that location.


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## Ming the Merciless (26 Nov 2018)

They also won't grasp why they are decrepid as they enter their 60's and blame it on ageing...


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## Smokin Joe (26 Nov 2018)

I like Skol said:


> Am I the only one to see the elephant in the room?
> 
> 
> A 30 mile impractical commute. Either you bought a house too far from work, or accepted a job with an unreasonable commute, and now you are whining about how driving 60 miles a day is screwing up the planet but is you only option?
> The solution seems obvious to me, but may mean making some sacrifices for your cause. Or you could carry on as you are just paying lip service to the issue and continue putting the blame on anyone else but yourself.....


For many people it is just not possible to work close to where they live.


Globalti said:


> Look at any old film from as recently as the 70s and you'll hardly see a fat person. Even Police officers look quite fit.


Diet.

It is 99% what and how much people eat that determines how much they weigh. I am constantly astonished at the number of overweight cyclists I see.


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## dave r (26 Nov 2018)

Johnno260 said:


> I think a lot of the issue with cycling is it’s perception, people think it’s odd.
> 
> In my office when I commute or partially commute I’m ridiculed, they honestly can’t grasp the advantage as I pass them all when they’re stuck in traffic.
> 
> ...



I was a cycle commuter for over thirty years, and the fact that I had a driving license but didn't have a car confused some people, I did two jobs in that time where I drove company vehicle's, small lorries and vans. Three years before I retired I brought my first car and a lot of people I worked with were totally confused about why I continued to commute by bike and only used the car when it was wet.


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## 400bhp (26 Nov 2018)

Smokin Joe said:


> For many people it is just not possible to work close to where they live.


You’ve pretty much made an assumption that materialism trumps quality of life by putting work as the determining factor.


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## classic33 (26 Nov 2018)

400bhp said:


> You’ve pretty much made an assumption that materialism trumps quality of life by putting work as the determining factor.


A similar length commute was considered impossible by those in the office. So I went out and did it, to see if it wasn't. 

Once I'm away from home, headed East, it flattens out.


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## Johnno260 (26 Nov 2018)

Dogtrousers said:


> Many years ago mum would walk the four or five miles to the nearest big town to do the shopping, and get the bus back. It was a very pleasant walk along a canal, and she'd regularly turn down offers of a lift from well meaning neighbours. The neighbours thought she was decidedly odd. (Actually, they weren't wrong but that's another story).



It’s the same with the school run, I can remember walking to the other side of town to get to school, when I was old enough I rode. 

I would maybe get a bus if the weather was utterly horrific but that was a rare occasion. 

I have seen a school run where the person has pulled out their drive, traveled three houses turned into a side road where the entrance is and dropped the kids off, I know the person so it isn’t a mobility issue. 

Also if my wife’s grandma can do it anyone can, she has just handed her bike in, she just turned 95, and would cycle to the local store for her daily bits and pieces, it was maybe a 3-4 mile round trip.


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## hoppym27 (27 Nov 2018)

It's all about public opinion and attitude, I get ridiculed and even abused sometimes as a cyclist. If I was given the same treatment for my race, sexuality or my gender it would be a hate crime. However the media and people like that idiot Clarkson make it acceptable....opinions will change over time though I hope....I still remember when Bernard manning was acceptable once upon a time and now quite rightly he is considered appalling


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## kingrollo (27 Nov 2018)

On the content title I would disagree this country is built for cars. Sure its the default mode of transport for most folk. But almost everywhere you go, football match, theatre, restaurant, parking is a nightmare, - probably around every 10 miles you will be held up in roadworks, and in general rush hour traffic makes travelling above 11mph a novelty. 
When my son passed his driving test - I brought him a car - he sold it six months later - said it was totally pointless - the time in traffic and the hassle parking it made his journey slower - The Uni he went to give him a free bus pass - he's not a cyclist or an eco warrior - he just couldn't see it worth the money/hassle.


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## mudsticks (27 Nov 2018)

I used to commute to work by bike when possible, but now I live at work, so it's harder to fit in daily rides, Im thinking maybe i should do a loop at the beginning and end to bookend the working day


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## mudsticks (27 Nov 2018)

kingrollo said:


> On the content title I would disagree this country is built for cars. Sure its the default mode of transport for most folk. But almost everywhere you go, football match, theatre, restaurant, parking is a nightmare, - probably around every 10 miles you will be held up in roadworks, and in general rush hour traffic makes travelling above 11mph a novelty.
> When my son passed his driving test - I brought him a car - he sold it six months later - said it was totally pointless - the time in traffic and the hassle parking it made his journey slower - The Uni he went to give him a free bus pass - he's not a cyclist or an eco warrior - he just couldn't see it worth the money/hassle.



Certainly old town centres weren't built for cars - they were built mainly for pedestrians, and horse and carts.
Hence the endless snarl ups 

Sort your son out mate... Why him not an eco warrior? He doesnt want a livable planet for his future??


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## confusedcyclist (27 Nov 2018)

I have great hope the next round of oil crises will bring about an end to the motor dominance of the roads. We missed the opportunity following the 70s OPEC oil embargos. Whilst the Dutch realised that energy intensive transport dependent on foreign imports was never going to be sustainable, we had the north sea to tide us over... for a few decades. Not much left there these days. Change might be closer than many suspect.


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## snorri (27 Nov 2018)

dave r said:


> I brought my first car and a lot of people I worked with were totally confused about why I continued to commute by bike and only used the car when it was wet.


An ex colleague of mine who cycled to work every day bought a brand new car which he kept in a garage beside his house. He immediately used the car for daily travel to work, unless it was raining, when he reverted to the bicycle.


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## Ming the Merciless (27 Nov 2018)

The roads were certainly not built for these lorries that cannot turn right from the correct lane. Sounds like lorries are being sent onto roads they should never be on, creating danger for those using transport modes more suited to those roads.


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## mjr (27 Nov 2018)

Racing roadkill said:


> This isn’t Holland, never will be.


Yes it is! Well, part of Britain is Holland. It says it on the O on the top of the road signs, "Holland County Council".



Globalti said:


> There's another reason why we prefer to sit in traffic jams, which is antisocial behaviour. Everybody has had the experience of being stuck in a bus or a train with a bunch of rowdy hooligans and said to themselves "Never again... next time I'll take the car!"


I haven't. Why doesn't everybody have my experience of having some fascinating conversations with strangers on buses and trains and platforms? On the way back from the Cyclenation/CyclingUK conference on Saturday, I had a somewhat confused chat on the platform at noisy New Street and a better one on the train home. Probably the main reason there wasn't much chat on the way in was that the train was very quiet until Leicester and anyway I was failing to fix a puncture (burst tube). And that sort of stuff happens most journeys on my own, unlike motoring where I'm all alone with only the radio for company - that sort of isolation happening too frequently can't be good for people, can it?



Johnno260 said:


> I think it’s also seen as a poor mans mode of transportation.


Except when discussing transport policy, when cycling is seen as for "the privileged bourgeoisie" 



Dogtrousers said:


> Many years ago mum would walk the four or five miles to the nearest big town to do the shopping, and get the bus back. It was a very pleasant walk along a canal, and she'd regularly turn down offers of a lift from well meaning neighbours. The neighbours thought she was decidedly odd. (Actually, they weren't wrong but that's another story).


We used to have the same, living in Kewstoke and going into Weston-super-Mare. More often I rode the 3 miles around the hill, but it's only 1⅓ miles from the edge of Kewstoke to the High Street in Weston and a lovely walk up the 20' carriageway (actually a bridleway!) through the woods, down some posh hillside streets and through Grove Park (which contains the Jill Dando memorial garden). Yet it was very rare we saw any other villagers walking it and not unusual to be offered a lift during our short walk from our house to the edge of the village. 

Britain is not built for cars. As others have said, most settlements were built for people, horses and carts and are ill-suited to cars. Much better for cycles, but we need our dear leaders to realise that before they butcher all our historic places and rebuild them for cars - probably just as their unsustainability is driven home hard!


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## confusedcyclist (27 Nov 2018)

YukonBoy said:


> The roads were certainly not built for these lorries that cannot turn right from the correct lane. Sounds like lorries are being sent onto roads they should never be on, creating danger for those using transport modes more suited to those roads.


And yet modern society is dependent on them. Literally everything bought in retail and manufacturing gets somewhere on the back of HGVs. Modern society isn't possible without them. Even tap water and electrical energy is dependent on them. See http://energyskeptic.com/2017/when-trucks-stop-running-civilization-stops-running/


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## Globalti (27 Nov 2018)

Our problem is the sheer density of the population, which means lots of short routes. France has roughly the same population spread over double the space. To compliment that spread, the visionary Napoleon saw the need for straight routes connecting towns and cities as well as properly engineered highways crossing mountain passes for defensive purposes so France has a superior road network to Britain's half-baked pot pourri of overgrown packhorse trails. In fact most of the world does because pack horses determined our roads centuries ago.

Did you know that Holloway in that London is named after the hollow way, a massive V groove worn in the ground by millions of hooves of ponies bringing goods into and out of the city?


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## mjr (27 Nov 2018)

Globalti said:


> Our problem is the sheer density of the population, which means lots of short routes. France has roughly the same population spread over double the space. To compliment that spread, the visionary Napoleon saw the need for straight routes connecting towns and cities as well as properly engineered highways crossing mountain passes for defensive purposes so France has a superior road network to Britain's half-baked pot pourri of overgrown packhorse trails. In fact most of the world does because pack horses determined our roads centuries ago.


The major rivers and the Roman roads and a few of the packhorse trails (Icknield Way comes to mind) could make a network almost as good as the Napoleonic roads (many of which now seem to exist as long-bypassed back roads running straight between places no longer important) except that modern highways engineers have stolen some (Watling Street?), sliced-and-diced some (Ermine Street) and mostly ignored others (Camlet Way).


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## rogerzilla (27 Nov 2018)

Also, Ermin Way runs between Gloucester (ok, useful), Cirencester (a bit marginal), skirts the edge of Swindon (ok) and finishes at...er...Silchester (not very useful at all).


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## Globalti (27 Nov 2018)

"Yeah we're going to concrete over all those old Roman roads..." I can hear about a dozen conservation and historic Britain societies absolutely doing their nuts!


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## mjr (27 Nov 2018)

Globalti said:


> "Yeah we're going to concrete over all those old Roman roads..." I can hear about a dozen conservation and historic Britain societies absolutely doing their nuts!


Most of them have been continuously-used roads so I suspect almost all have been tarmacked over at some point in the last 120ish years. Maybe not the exact old road, but near enough to be useful.

We're now getting to the point where several of them have been mostly replaced by modern quasi-motorways and the historic route could be good mostly-on-road cycling if we could build cycle lanes alongside the remaining few parts and bypass braindead bypass block-offs like M11 J8 that blocks Stane Street and sends NCN Route 16 off on a 1.2 mile gravel detour around it the north.

I hope conservation societies would be delighted at the historic routes getting more publicity, popularity and visitors!


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## Globalti (27 Nov 2018)

You speak from the perspective of someone with brains, education, articulacy and imagination. Most of your fellow citizens do not possess these qualities, they just want to get to their destination with the minimum hassle and haven't a clue about the history of our roads.


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## classic33 (27 Nov 2018)

mjr said:


> Most of them have been continuously-used roads so I suspect almost all have been tarmacked over at some point in the last 120ish years. Maybe not the exact old road, but near enough to be useful.
> 
> We're now getting to the point where several of them have been mostly replaced by modern quasi-motorways and the historic route could be good mostly-on-road cycling if we could build cycle lanes alongside the remaining few parts and bypass braindead bypass block-offs like M11 J8 that blocks Stane Street and sends NCN Route 16 off on a 1.2 mile gravel detour around it the north.
> 
> I hope conservation societies would be delighted at the historic routes getting more publicity, popularity and visitors!



Neither the Roman Highway or the pack horse roads in the area have been tarmaced/concreted over.


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## Edwardoka (27 Nov 2018)

Rode a fair chunk of the Fosse Way a few years ago (mistakenly believing that as fosse meant ditch the way would be flat  and being Roman that it wouldn't be suitable for cars)
I presumed they'd just paved over it since I didn't see anything remotely resembling a Roman road and this was before everyone had a smartphone so I just got on with it without ever knowing. Got me through the West Midlands without having to go through any cities so it wasn't all bad


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## MontyVeda (28 Nov 2018)

Johnno260 said:


> There are a few electric cars near me and you're right you can't hear them at all, I know you should look but I have seen people step out in front of electric cars in car parks numerous times, and its due to them no hearing a car so not looking.
> 
> One electric car driving guy who I didn't move over for very quickly was quite nice, at the traffic lights I said sorry I didn't hear him, he said they should put a speaker on them to make some noise, I said if I'm in front of him in the future please just a little toot on the horn to let me know he is there, which he now does every time.


People just need to learn to use their eyes as well as their ears... Stop, Look and Listen, in that order. 

I oppose putting 'noise' on electric vehicles.


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## Rusty Nails (28 Nov 2018)

MontyVeda said:


> People just need to learn to use their eyes as well as their ears... Stop, Look and Listen, in that order.
> 
> I oppose putting 'noise' on electric vehicles.



Cigarette packets clicking on the wheels is a cheap alternative.

(other card alternatives are available for the more health conscious among us).


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## I like Skol (28 Nov 2018)

[QUOTE 5454895, member: 9609"](I will be amazed if anyone has the foggiest what I'm going on about)[/QUOTE]
I do 

You're not the only cycling petrolhead!


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## mjr (28 Nov 2018)

Dogtrousers said:


> Visually impaired people have been campaigning for additional noise. For obvious reasons. I'm not visually impaired and am not well informed on the subject so I have no opinion.


I feel the underlying problem there is that visually impaired people have no trust in motorists not to run them over, or on the legal system to give motorists sufficient incentive not to run them over. This changeover really does highlight how messed up things have become.


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## Johnno260 (28 Nov 2018)

MontyVeda said:


> People just need to learn to use their eyes as well as their ears... Stop, Look and Listen, in that order.
> 
> I oppose putting 'noise' on electric vehicles.



Yup always look as well, it's just some seem pre-programmed to not look if they don't hear something.

On the bike I struggle to hear them, but my hearing isn't the greatest, I just check over my shoulder more regularly now, but this time of year lights make it easier.


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## MontyVeda (28 Nov 2018)

Dogtrousers said:


> Visually impaired people have been campaigning for additional noise. For obvious reasons. I'm not visually impaired and am not well informed on the subject so I have no opinion.


Are they also campaigning for our bicycles to be noisier too?


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## Ming the Merciless (28 Nov 2018)

MontyVeda said:


> Are they also campaigning for our bicycles to be noisier too?



Yes every bike will be fitted with clothes pegs and cards...


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## mudsticks (28 Nov 2018)

MontyVeda said:


> Are they also campaigning for our bicycles to be noisier too?



I have found it quite useful having a bell sometimes - particularly on shared with pedestrians cyclepaths.

If you call out it can seem a bit aggressive - but no one can be offended by the sweet tinkling of a bell can they??

Yes, yes, i know, _maybe_ some folks suffer with 'bicycle bell misphonia' - in which case i apologise in advance -

please don't stab me


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## mjr (28 Nov 2018)

MontyVeda said:


> Are they also campaigning for our bicycles to be noisier too?


No, they usually campaign for cycling to be banned - or rather, for the cycling bans contrary to the national policy since 1987 to allow cycling in pedestrianised areas (like in much of Europe) to be continued  and for no more shared-space schemes to be built (I've mixed feelings on that).


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## classic33 (28 Nov 2018)

Dogtrousers said:


> Visually impaired people have been campaigning for additional noise. For obvious reasons. I'm not visually impaired and am not well informed on the subject so I have no opinion.


Blind, his description, stoker on a tandem hears a lot more than I did, and had a better ability to say where the noise was coming from. Including distance.


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## Ascent (29 Nov 2018)

The thing about saying Britain is built for cars suggests that there was some kind of joined up thinking involved. Quite frankly it's a bodge job of different people with different ideas over a period of decades if not centuries in changing circumstances.

Quite frankly it's amazing it works as well as it does.


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## al78 (29 Nov 2018)

Globalti said:


> People who frequent web fora like this generally forget that the rest of the population are mostly not interested in cycling and the car is by far the most practical mode of transport for them.



FTFY


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## Ming the Merciless (29 Nov 2018)

If it was built for cars then there would be no more road building, no more widening, no need for motorways to be built...


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## Globalti (29 Nov 2018)

Ascent said:


> The thing about saying Britain is built for cars suggests that there was some kind of joined up thinking involved. Quite frankly it's a bodge job of different people with different ideas over a period of decades if not centuries in changing circumstances.
> 
> Quite frankly it's amazing it works as well as it does.



You're right... British roads are amongst the safest in the world in relation to weight of traffic. Generally traffic continues to move safely with almost no supervision thanks to the good level of cooperation amongst road users, despite the actions of a few bad ones.


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## snorri (29 Nov 2018)

Globalti said:


> British roads are amongst the safest in the world in relation to weight of traffic.


I don't believe it, do you have any stats to back up your statement?


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## Globalti (29 Nov 2018)

Yawn... 'ere we go again! Make a statement and somebody pops up demanding full peer-reviewed evidence. It's one of the slightly irritating aspects of life in the CC virtual pub.

Edited: is this good enough for you? UK ranks 180 out of 183 countries:

https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/road-traffic-accidents/by-country/


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## snorri (29 Nov 2018)

Globalti said:


> Yawn... 'ere we go again! Make a statement and somebody pops up demanding full peer-reviewed evidence. It's one of the slightly irritating aspects of life in the CC virtual pub.
> 
> Edited: is this good enough for you? UK ranks 180 out of 183 countries:
> 
> https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/road-traffic-accidents/by-country/


And it annoys me a little when people make contentious statements but are unwilling to discuss calmly, but just forget about it.


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## mjr (29 Nov 2018)

Globalti said:


> Yawn... 'ere we go again! Make a statement and somebody pops up demanding full peer-reviewed evidence. It's one of the slightly irritating aspects of life in the CC virtual pub.
> 
> Edited: is this good enough for you? UK ranks 180 out of 183 countries:
> 
> https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/road-traffic-accidents/by-country/


Nothing about weight of traffic in that.

So sorry to ask for small things like accuracy and honesty instead of barroom bluster(!)


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## I like Skol (29 Nov 2018)

mjr said:


> Nothing about weight of traffic in that.


I would expect we have a massively greater weight of traffic than Kiribati or Micronesia?


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## Brandane (29 Nov 2018)

Maybe Britain's roads have low death rates BECAUSE of the weight of traffic? 
If traffic spends all day stuck in jams on the M25, M6, M8 and other major routes, then it's hardly a surprise that fewer people are dying as a result of crashes. The dodgems travel faster!


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## confusedcyclist (4 Dec 2018)

[QUOTE 5455093, member: 9609"]I will have you know it's diesel that flows in my veins - the fuel of gods[/QUOTE]
I'll let you down slowly, diesel is petroleum.


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## confusedcyclist (4 Dec 2018)

Brandane said:


> Maybe Britain's roads have low death rates BECAUSE of the weight of traffic?
> If traffic spends all day stuck in jams on the M25, M6, M8 and other major routes, then it's hardly a surprise that fewer people are dying as a result of crashes. The dodgems travel faster!


Actually it's mostly because everyone has given up trying to get about by any other means. No doubt the 'gummit likes to claim its their amazing efforts, though, despite everyone else feeling more intimidated than ever.


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## Brandane (4 Dec 2018)

confusedcyclist said:


> Actually it's mostly because everyone has given up trying to get about by any other means.



So far this winter on Scotrail, we've had the usual regular weather related disruptions on my local line to Glasgow. This happens every time we get strong winds as the sea gets blown over the electrified lines. Chaos at the weekend caused by staff shortages. This morning some of our staff at work were late (again) after 2 people were electrocuted on the line overnight, causing closure of the line. Unlike London, if our one line is closed, it's not possible to take a slight diversion. 

As always, horses for courses. If I lived in London, I wouldn't want the stress of car ownership, unless of course I had my own private garage for the Bentley in the basement of my Mayfair penthouse. Living in any rural area of Britain, I wouldn't want to be reliant on public transport.


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## IBarrett (4 Dec 2018)

I'm hoping in my lifetime we see the end of the land huggers and have some kind of automated flying things.

It will make room for my classic car and bicycle


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## rogerzilla (4 Dec 2018)

Cars are like beachfront houses - they're great until everybody wants one.


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