# Anyone else got a carlton?



## Black Sheep (15 Feb 2009)

My roadie is an old carlton that my dad bought while he was still at school in the 60's, just wondering if anyone else has a carlton at all?

from the days before Raleigh took them over 

while we're at it, anyone know exactly what mine is and can point me in the right direction of transfers for it, I'd like to re-paint it 










built up

Hallie is a 1960's Carlton, can't quite remember what i was told she is, case de primes or something and i'm aware i've mutilated her. 
she's orange for want of a better colour but i'd like to re paint her to look a bit more original. 
she's got a silver rack and black grip tape, she's retained her cotted cranks and i learnt to build wheels to put 27 inch wheels on (the ones fitted were shot and not the originals) she's also got a deore rear mech as its what was in my spares box. 

if anyone actually knows what colours she should be and what decals should be on her i'd be very glad to know (pm me please) 

might start a new thread to find out actually.


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## Chuffy (15 Feb 2009)

I believe that Bagpuss is the chap you need to speak to. The bike chappy, hangs around these parts, not the slightly moth-eaten old cloth cat.


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## hubgearfreak (16 Feb 2009)

here's a supplier for decals

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/nick_at_lloyds/


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## Black Sheep (16 Feb 2009)

I've had a look through that supplier before, however there's no mention of what i think my frame is and i've no idea what the decals should look like


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## Baggy (16 Feb 2009)

I used to have a Carlton, and tracked down the type it was through this http://oldroads.com/ forum, and also through looking at eBay for Carltons until one the same came up.

I can't see your pics for some reason...

Oh, this web page has links to pictures as well:
http://www.carltoncycles.me.uk/carlton-links.htm


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## Black Sheep (17 Feb 2009)

looking at the carlton cycles link the frames all seem the same (the mass produced ones anyway) and its the specification that makes it a different bike? would this assumption be correct?

thinking mines a corsa, i'm sure my dad said it was a corsa de something tho...
i know the blue, white and yellow is its original colours


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## Black Sheep (17 Feb 2009)

my dad says its a course de primes or corse de primes but thinks they were only made for a few years


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## Baggy (17 Feb 2009)

Pushing tin said:


> looking at the carlton cycles link the frames all seem the same (the mass produced ones anyway) and its the specification that makes it a different bike? would this assumption be correct?


No, the frames will have different geometry depending on whether they were for racing or touring etc, (ie, a racing bike will have more relaxed angle on the headset etc, giving a more relaxed ride) and the tubes they are made with will be different weights. Touring bikes will have eyelets for a rack etc.

Do the seat stays wrap over in front of the seat tube?

The Carlton Corsair is a 60's touring bike, but I can't find a Carlton Corasair de Primes, or a Corsa de Primes.


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## Black Sheep (17 Feb 2009)

yes the seat stays do wrap over the front of the seat tube, 
it came with cotted cranks and i presume just a 5 speed, only got routing for a single cable, 

Dad says its not a corsa but a course (or corse) de primes but i can't find any pics by that description on google


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## magnidec (25 Mar 2009)

*CARLTON COURSE DES PRIMES*

Hello Pushing tin,
Your bike is a Carlton Course Des Primes. It was made for a few years in the mid 60's only. Maybe 65-68. I bought one new as a teenager in 67 from Don Skeene in Cardiff. It wasn't, I'm afraid, made with 531 tubing but was an impressive spec. Mine was painted Tirian Mauve (very dark purple) and metallic Parma Violet. Chrome forks front and rear with fancy Crespera lugwork. I had it stolen after 11 months and after saving all year to build the bike from a bare frame I couldn't afford the insurance, doh! I saw one on e-bay last year which I bought instantly as they never come up for sale and there's next to no information on the web about them. I also have a b/w catalogue from 67/68 listing the bike though, and of course the frame I bought. I kept the frame but binned all the other parts as the plan is to rebuild the same bike I had, using the same parts as I did 40 years ago. It's a lot easier now sourcing stuff from the internet, but if I can help with anything, let me know, happy to oblige.


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## tyred (25 Mar 2009)

I have a Carlton, but from after the Raleigh takeover (1960 I think). It was made in May '77 according to the serial number.





Can any of the more knowledgeable folks on here identify what model? I may or may not repaint the frame later this year and the North road handlebars are a temporary fitment as the drops which came on the frame were unusually narrow and I felt very uncomfortable as a result.


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## Nigel-YZ1 (28 Apr 2009)

I've got an early 1980's Carlton Kermesse, given to me by a dying friend a couple of years ago. It's a metallic green/blue, with chromed forks, and until recently had the mythical Shimano 600ax Aero cranks.

I couldn't get on with the toe clips so Dave Marsh at the Universal Cycle Centre in Maltby put me regular 600 cranks and front rings on.
For the sake of interest he does full restorations, with the bike resprayed and labelled back to original spec by a former Carlton employee.

I'm primarily a mountain biker but this bike has introduced me to being a roadie too. I think I'm hooked.


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## PatrickPending (1 Jun 2009)

MY commuter is a 1974 carlton continental. Does approx 12000 km per year - well has done for the last 4, still going strong - well - now has 9 speed STI drivetrain and dual pivot brakes. Got it powdercoated 2 years ago, looks lovely


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## bagpuss (11 Jun 2009)

My Carltons.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/74418119@N00/sets/72157604673051032/

Yes I have far to many.


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## porteous (21 Aug 2009)

*Carlton Frames*

I have a chromed 1962 Carlton frame that looks very like Bagpuss's Carlton Capella. Is there any reference source to check using frame angles and the like? 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/31231726@N03/3769616008/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/31231726@N03/3769610952/


http://www.flickr.com/photos/31231726@N03/3769607978/in/set-72157621884224300/


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## Spokesmann (4 Jul 2010)

Ill get some pics of mine up soon, I have 8 of them.


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## jack the lad (8 Jul 2010)

I have a 1978 Carlton Pro-Am 12. Lovely bike to ride, and still original. Not sure whether to restore it - the paintwork is pretty tatty now, but it is such a lovely subtle pale pearlescent blue I would hate it if the paint shop didn't recreate it exactly. I've been put off by a friend who had a Bianchi restored by Bob Jacksons who didn't get the Celeste paint colour right at all. Might follow up the chap in Maltby and see what he says.

I wish I had seen this thread last week. I was in Rotherham on Monday!

I had a Corsair tourer too, but gave that away last year.


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## TheCyclingRooster (11 Jul 2010)

Hi to you all & in particular to blacksheep.The place to go/enquire is :- C&G Finishes,274,Smithdown Road,Liverpool.Merseyside.L15 5AH. tel :-0151-734-3088 (ask for Gerry Williams)
You will not be disappointed,indeed you will be guaranteed one of the best jobs around if not the best and at sensible money, all done to original spec' (white headstock & seat tube panel)with transfers.They have been in Liverpool doing high quality work from back in the 60's when frames were Stove Enamelled.They will sort out any Chrome Work if required.If you go onto RetroBike and look at Readers Road Bikes & For Sale & Wanted look for posts by :-cipolini,there is a restored Carlton Stadium for sale,paint work etc by C&G Liverpool.
Happy & Safe Riding to You All.


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## Spokesmann (12 Jul 2010)

Black Sheep said:


> My roadie is an old carlton that my dad bought while he was still at school in the 60's, just wondering if anyone else has a carlton at all?
> 
> from the days before Raleigh took them over
> 
> ...





Its a Carlton Criterium dating from around 1969. Worth saving too.


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## Spokesmann (12 Jul 2010)

1958 Constellation, 2 years before the baffoons at Raleigh got hold of Carlton.


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## wheelnut (1 Jan 2011)

Information on the Carlton marque from this link:-

http://www.carltoncycles.me.uk/home.htm


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## pubrunner (1 May 2011)

Hi All,

I've an entirely original Carlton Pro Am for about 1980.

It even has the original mudguards & wheels.

Since I've just about finished my other 'projects'. I'll soon be turning my attentions to the Carlton.

All it really needs, is a damn good clean - and then, to be used.

However, both front and rear wheels have broken spokes; should I (to keep it 'original') have the wheels re-built, or should I get some 'better' wheels second hand - such as Mavic Open Sport/Pro ?

The current wheels (700c) look nothing special; I'm not sure whether they are worth re-building - what would you do ?


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## pubrunner (3 May 2011)

jack the lad said:


> I have a 1978 Carlton Pro-Am 12. *Lovely bike to ride, and still original*.



That's very interesting !

I'd mentally classified it as a sort of poor man's Dawes Galaxy, rather more a tourer than a pure racer.

I've never been on my Pro Am.

What wheels do you have on yours ?


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## davehann (3 May 2011)

my carlton got folded in half in a head on with a car

but the insurance got me a nice new genesis :-)


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## besam (13 Jun 2011)

I've just picked up an April 1980 Carlton - I think its a Pro from this guy's pictures of lugwork http://www.flickr.com/photos/74418119@N00/2476060203/in/set-72157604673051032/ - but not certain. 
























Don't know whether these pics will come out but..
[font="'Times New Roman"]
[/font]
[font="'Times New Roman"]Would appreciate any link to 1980 catalogue too![/font]
[font="'Times New Roman"]
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[font="'Times New Roman"]Cheers[/font]


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## Baggy (18 Jul 2011)

This might be of some interest to Black Sheep - there's a Calton Course des Primes for sale on Ebay at the moment.


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## Black Sheep (18 Jul 2011)

Spokesmann said:


> Its a Carlton Criterium dating from around 1969. Worth saving too.



I'm not sure it is, the photos I can find of the criterium seem to have 'Carlton' spelt out down the downtube for the 1968 year,

the paint scheme has more in common with the e-bay link posted for the Carlton corse de primes


thanks for all your help people, will have a look into getting it re-sprayed by the place recommended earlier.


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## biggs682 (23 Nov 2011)

i have 2 one from early 60's just after they were brought by Raleigh and a very mint 80's Corsair


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## stevevw (24 Nov 2011)

I have a couple too. late 50's / Early 60's Franco D'Italia which is in storage awaiting restoration and this Corsa.





I am looking to pass this one on as I doubt I will ever get round to restoring it. Only the frame and fork i'm afraid. So any of you that want to collect you are welcome to it as long as you promise to not turn it in to a Hipster mobile.


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## curzons246 (24 Nov 2011)

Hi Steve,
i already have a Carlton Continental - I want to restore the frame but dont want to disrupt my riding so your frame could be just what i'm looking for - what size is the frame and whereabouts are you?


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## stevevw (25 Nov 2011)

curzons246 said:


> Hi Steve,
> i already have a Carlton Continental - I want to restore the frame but dont want to disrupt my riding so your frame could be just what i'm looking for - what size is the frame and whereabouts are you?


 
The frame is about 22" and I am in North Herts


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## curzons246 (25 Nov 2011)

stevevw said:


> The frame is about 22" and I am in North Herts


thanks Steve a bit short in the leg for me my continental is 25 1/2 thanks for the offer, Bill


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## stevevw (25 Nov 2011)

Nearly 65cm are you a giant? 
That is about 4" Bigger than the Carlton.


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## curzons246 (25 Nov 2011)

stevevw said:


> Nearly 65cm are you a giant?
> That is about 4" Bigger than the Carlton.


6'3" - it limits my choice - nothing new seems to fit but the Continental fits like a glove :-)


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## Chilli Mark (29 Feb 2012)

Hi, just found this thread last week.

I've got a Carlton Course Des Primes (U6566) that, as far as I can remember, I got for my 15th birthday in 1966 - 46 years ago now!
It was originally just as member 'magnidec' described his i.e. painted very dark purple, metallic violet, with some white and part chromed forks.

After a hard life with me at boarding school it needed major surgery and it's been reborn a couple of times since then (last time about 15 years ago) and now looks like this:-










With a lot of non-original items, not least being those to upgrade it from 5 to 10 speed.
Can anyone tell me if the frame lugs are Crespera or something else? They don't seem quite the same as any photos of Crespera that I've seen.


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## deptfordmarmoset (29 Feb 2012)

stevevw said:


> I have a couple too. late 50's / Early 60's Franco D'Italia which is in storage awaiting restoration and this Corsa.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I love the colour of that bike! I'm not after the bike but can I have the paint?


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## Spokesmann (29 Feb 2012)

The colour used was a polychromatic aqua green, although the colour could vary from a more yellowy green to a deeper bluey green


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## Baggy (29 Feb 2012)

Chilli Mark said:


> Can anyone tell me if the frame lugs are Crespera or something else? They don't seem quite the same as any photos of Crespera that I've seen.


The lugs look like Nervex Legere 48/161 according to this website!


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## Chilli Mark (1 Mar 2012)

Thanks Baggy, I think you've cracked it - they do look like the Nervex Legere 48/161 lugs. 
As a novice to all this I'd never even heard of them before!


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## raindog (1 Mar 2012)

Baggy said:


> The lugs look like Nervex Legere 48/161 according to this website!


Bloody hell, that fantastic site! Why wasn't I informed sooner? 
Thanks to that link I have now verified that the lugs on my Rory O'Brien are Nervex Professional.
Can't identify the fork crown though.
And the URL is now bookmarked.


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## alecstilleyedye (1 Mar 2012)

this is mine; a '58 frame (model unknown), original head badge but colour scheme and graphics more recent, as are the forks (previous owner crashed it).

is a bit of a mish-mash of components (it's the only bike i have with any campag; front wheel and rear ends), so nothing like in original form, and a fixie conversion to boot.

nice to ride though…


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## Spokesmann (2 Mar 2012)

Here is a well used Criterium from sometime around 72/73...
http://roadsofstone.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/carlton-criterium-1975-road-bike.jpg


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## Red Rose (6 Oct 2014)

I have two Carltons (and half a dozen Raleighs, all Worksop built, except for a very late Special Products Division 853 TT frame).

This Corsair came from the National Cycle Museum, when they sold off some bikes to raise funds. It's still got all its original parts (including the non-perished original tyres). I doubt it's been ridden more than a handful of times since new. The condition is so good, I have loaned it to my local Raleigh dealer (Dynostart in Carnforth) where it's hung on the wall in his small museum.





















I'll take some photos of the other Carlton soon. It has an interesting history and provenance.


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## Swifty (6 Oct 2014)

My 1975 carlton criterium is my first real bike since I was a teenager I am just about to buy a 79 criterium in mint green


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## Black Sheep (1 Oct 2018)

I've been debating what to do with the Carlton for a couple of years now. 

It served faithfully as my transport while at uni and a few years beyond before work resulted in me having to get the train or drive (and has continued to do so) along with a move to a much more hilly area where 5 1/2 speed is, along with a lower level of fitness, hard work. (I even had to put gears on the previously singlespeed mountain bike!)

The Carlton is too good to dispose of but in it's current state I don't think anyone who'd value it for what it is would want it. 

None of the parts on it are transferable to other bikes (except the Deore rear mech!) 

She is tired, the bottom bracket rocks (looks like knackered bearings as the cups are tight and don't move. 

This weekend I was support team for my wife and a friend doing the North West 'Pink Wave' triathlon where they finished 2nd and 21st respectively (out of 31 entries) for which I've agreed to join 'Team Jelly Legs' next year so it looks like Hallie will get the work done on her that she's not had so far. 


So, firstly, I want to strip her down and see what's in need of work doing, check that the bottom bracket shell is ok. I actually have a spare bottom bracket bearing and cups and a cotter axle and pins somewhere in my spares drawer having anticipated this a few years ago. 

Secondly, she needs paint and I'm skint. 
I've seen ''tractor enamel'' / ''brushing enamel'' which I can get in, roughly, her original colours, while I won't get a factory perfect finish, I'll get a presentable finish that looks far better than what she's worn for the past 10 years. 

Or would it be acceptable to put her in a period correct scheme that isn't quite correct? A flat colour with bands on perhaps.


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## gilespargiter (2 Oct 2018)

That Corsair of yours is identical to mine, albeit with a smaller frame Red rose. Beautiful pictures to - saved me having to photograph mine to record the decals, hope you don't mind?
It is my favourite bike and does many miles a year over these Welsh hills and beyond. It has a hard life with me and I often get told I should get a mountain bike. My usuall reply is that it goes a lot further a lot more easily over a lot more mountains than I ride my Mtb. bike over.
I shall have to have it re-enamelled before long, but shall probably have the decals done by hand by a truck sign writer.


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## Soltydog (3 Oct 2018)

For a while I've been thinking of getting an old steel bike, as a project for winter. Reading this thread over the last few days has got me reminiscing about my 'younger' years. In the 70s my dad had a Carlton & as soon as I was tall enough, I would always ask to ride it. Loved it & was far better than anything that was 'mine' as a kid. After a bit of googling it turns out he had a Carlton Kermesse, not that grand really, had 501 tubing, but rode really well. Doesn't seem to be too many about at the moment, so considering other Carltons & maybe off to view one this week if it's still available.

Here's a smart looking Kermesse


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## mikeymustard (3 Oct 2018)

The 501 Kermesse didn't come out til mid 80s I think. Your dad's being from the 70s was probably in 531 and a jolly nice bike (the 501 framed kermesse is a very nice bike too). Unless you're mistaken about what decade you grew up in?


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## Soltydog (3 Oct 2018)

mikeymustard said:


> The 501 Kermesse didn't come out til mid 80s I think. Your dad's being from the 70s was probably in 531 and a jolly nice bike (the 501 framed kermesse is a very nice bike too). Unless you're mistaken about what decade you grew up in?



I wish I was 10 years younger lol, Had a look online recently & the only colour scheme match was the Kermesse, & I thought I read it was 501 tubing  Wish he'd not sold it on, but it would probably be too small for me nowadays


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## midlife (3 Oct 2018)

The Kermesse of the 70's looked a million dollars, Blue with chrome forks . Tru well tubing in the early 70's as it was the cheaper brother to the Equipe which had 531main tubes. Disappeared for a few years but the name re appeared several years later in 501, frame design with oversize seat stay caps..chrome forks included


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## raleighnut (4 Oct 2018)

My 67 'Clubman'


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## mikeymustard (4 Oct 2018)

midlife said:


> The Kermesse of the 70's looked a million dollars, Blue with chrome forks . Tru well tubing in the early 70's as it was the cheaper brother to the Equipe which had 531main tubes. Disappeared for a few years but the name re appeared several years later in 501, frame design with oversize seat stay caps..chrome forks included
> 
> View attachment 432724


I could've sworn I've seen a 531 kermesse! I had a criterium in tru well tubing and I didn't realise until recently that it wasn't reynolds

Edited because of ducking autocorrect!


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## Illaveago (4 Oct 2018)

Soltydog said:


> For a while I've been thinking of getting an old steel bike, as a project for winter. Reading this thread over the last few days has got me reminiscing about my 'younger' years. In the 70s my dad had a Carlton & as soon as I was tall enough, I would always ask to ride it. Loved it & was far better than anything that was 'mine' as a kid. After a bit of googling it turns out he had a Carlton Kermesse, not that grand really, had 501 tubing, but rode really well. Doesn't seem to be too many about at the moment, so considering other Carltons & maybe off to view one this week if it's still available.
> 
> Here's a smart looking Kermesse
> View attachment 432711


That was the bike I was after in the 70's but couldn't find one and so ended up with my Holdsworth. I don't think the catologues mention the frames being made of Reynolds tubing.


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## Illaveago (4 Oct 2018)

Here is my Carlton Competition. I bought it as a frame, stem and cranks so I had to buy another frame for some donor parts.


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## Black Sheep (4 Oct 2018)

Think mine is going out for her last ride tonight with a view to stripping it down and re-building it for next September's triathlon.


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## Soltydog (4 Oct 2018)

Illaveago said:


> That was the bike I was after in the 70's but couldn't find one and so ended up with my Holdsworth. I don't think the catologues mention the frames being made of Reynolds tubing.



There's a scan of the 73 catalogue on retrobike http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v202/SPOKESMAN/BICYCLES/kermesse_equipe.jpg It's pictured alongside the Equipe which does mention 531 tubing, but as you say no mention of what tubing the Kermesse had. Thinking about the dates, it may have been the very early 80s when I was actually tall enough to ride it. Think I was 11 or 12 before I was as tall as my dad, so that would have been 80/81 & he'd had it a while then, he didn't buy it new so 73 model fits about right


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## midlife (4 Oct 2018)

Soltydog said:


> There's a scan of the 73 catalogue on retrobike http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v202/SPOKESMAN/BICYCLES/kermesse_equipe.jpg It's pictured alongside the Equipe which does mention 531 tubing, but as you say no mention of what tubing the Kermesse had. Thinking about the dates, it may have been the very early 80s when I was actually tall enough to ride it. Think I was 11 or 12 before I was as tall as my dad, so that would have been 80/81 & he'd had it a while then, he didn't buy it new so 73 model fits about right



That pic shows the Equipe with 531 tubing and alloy kit. The lower level Kermesse is above with steel chainset etc and made in a Carlton hi-tensile tubing. Both looking very smart


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## Oldfentiger (4 Oct 2018)

I have an 1970 Truwel and a 1986 Kermess (501 tubing). Both nice to ride.


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## BobS (5 Oct 2018)

Well I have a Carlton. Don't know it's exact vintage, but I knew the bike and it's rider in the 1970's. Still going strong as a fixed wheel bike. I converted it to straight handlebars when it became mine, rebuilt the wheels, new tyres, bike computer and off it went. It has a nice Philbrook rear hub and a campag front hub. Quite nice for a bit of bartering. It did a couple of years pulling a Rann trailer with the grandkids, now it has replaced my old claud butler fixed wheel bike (See elsewhere on this forum). Lovely to ride. Brakes only allow it to run on 27" wheels.

But why don't Halfords make those back mudguards long enough?


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## midlife (5 Oct 2018)

BobS said:


> Well I have a Carlton. Don't know it's exact vintage, but I knew the bike and it's rider in the 1970's. Still going strong as a fixed wheel bike. I converted it to straight handlebars when it became mine, rebuilt the wheels, new tyres, bike computer and off it went. It has a nice Philbrook rear hub and a campag front hub. Quite nice for a bit of bartering. It did a couple of years pulling a Rann trailer with the grandkids, now it has replaced my old claud butler fixed wheel bike (See elsewhere on this forum). Lovely to ride. Brakes only allow it to run on 27" wheels.
> 
> But why don't Halfords make those back mudguards long enough?
> 
> View attachment 432877



Capella lugs


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## GuyBoden (6 Oct 2018)

My early 70's Carlton Continental. 
(With modern stuff, especially decent brakes.)


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## Kempstonian (6 Nov 2018)

I rode many happy miles on my Carlton (pictured elsewhere in this section)... and a few not so happy ones (mainly in the winter!).

I've just bought a frame that the seller advertised as a Carlton (?), so I'll maybe find out when it arrives, hopefully tomorrow.

This site sells decals for Carlton bikes and many other makes - https://h-lloyd-cycles.myshopify.com/


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## Kempstonian (7 Nov 2018)

Well I've got the frame but there's no clue as to whether its a Carlton or not. It has been resprayed because blue paint is showing where the red has been chipped. This is it: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649

The chrome forks (which have cleaned up very well) have the name Elan on a label. Did Carlton use those? I'm not sure because the top surface of the forks is plain and flat.

I need a bit of help though. I have started to prepare it for a respray but I can't get this out...






Its on the right side, so does it have a left hand thread? Do I need a special tool to undo it?


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## midlife (7 Nov 2018)

It has all the hallmarks of a Carlton frame with the Trademark Crespera lugs and wrapover. The fixed cup has a left hand thread, there is a special tool but there is a trick with a big nut and bolt, I'm sure Biggs has posted pics.


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## Kempstonian (7 Nov 2018)

midlife said:


> It has all the hallmarks of a Carlton frame with the Trademark Crespera lugs and wrapover. The fixed cup has a left hand thread, there is a special tool but there is a trick with a big nut and bolt, I'm sure Biggs has posted pics.


Thanks... I'll try to find that post. I watched a couple of Youtube videos - one guy used a very large adjustable spanner but I don't have one.

I agree about the frame most probably being a Carlton but I don't know if the forks are. More research needed there but I'm not bothered either way because I won't be trying to restore it, just make a bike I can ride. I intend to take the bits of the Townsend bike I got from my brother in law that's too big for me. I want to put an alloy chainset on if I can find one at a decent price and some new wheels eventually. I want it to end up similar to the Carlton I used to own years ago.


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## midlife (7 Nov 2018)

Yup, I agree the forks don't seem to match but don't look too out of place. This will alert @biggs682 to the thread, I'm sure he's posted about using a big bolt on the fixed cup. Big spanner needed though. Your local bike shop should be able to whip it if for not a lot of money.

Are you looking out for a single or double chainset?


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## biggs682 (7 Nov 2018)

thanks @midlife here you go @Kempstonian 1966 Dawes Debonair[/URL

get at least a 12mm or imperial thread size nut & bolt and a couple of flat & spring washers poke the bolt with some washers into the bottom bracket shell and then at least a couple of flat and spring washers on the outside and start tightening them up once you have the nut tight keep going just be careful you dont slip then all of a sudden it will start to release the cup and hey presto .

if you are struggling give me a shout and come up and we can do it together


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## Kempstonian (7 Nov 2018)

midlife said:


> Yup, I agree the forks don't seem to match but don't look too out of place. This will alert @biggs682 to the thread, I'm sure he's posted about using a big bolt on the fixed cup. Big spanner needed though. Your local bike shop should be able to whip it if for not a lot of money.
> 
> Are you looking out for a single or double chainset?


A double I think. Not fussy what make it is.


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## Kempstonian (7 Nov 2018)

biggs682 said:


> thanks @midlife here you go @Kempstonian 1966 Dawes Debonair[/URL
> 
> get at least a 12mm or imperial thread size nut & bolt and a couple of flat & spring washers poke the bolt with some washers into the bottom bracket shell and then at least a couple of flat and spring washers on the outside and start tightening them up once you have the nut tight keep going just be careful you dont slip then all of a sudden it will start to release the cup and hey presto .
> 
> if you are struggling give me a shout and come up and we can do it together


Oh thanks! I'll see if I have the required bits in the shed and give it a go.

Thanks for the offer of assistance - I may well need it at some point!


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## midlife (7 Nov 2018)

Maybe have a look around bankruptbikeparts. Com for a cheap double, otherwise sjs cycles, spa cycles, merlin might have something cheap. Did you want something that looks period like Zenith? There's always evil Bay lol


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## Kempstonian (7 Nov 2018)

midlife said:


> Maybe have a look around bankruptbikeparts. Com for a cheap double, otherwise sjs cycles, spa cycles, merlin might have something cheap. Did you want something that looks period like Zenith? There's always evil Bay lol


I suppose I wouldn't want anything too modern but period ones might be a bit pricey, so I suppose anything that fits would be acceptable for now. It can always be swapped out later on.

I'll check those sites you mention. Thanks mate


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## midlife (7 Nov 2018)

Twenty five quid sjs jobby looks quite neat...


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## Kempstonian (8 Nov 2018)

midlife said:


> Twenty five quid sjs jobby looks quite neat...


Yes, its not in bad condition at all. No dents or rust on the frame at all. The paintwork is somewhat chipped but that doesn't matter as I'm currently removing it to do a respray. The red layer is very thin and coming off easily so I suspect somebody did a quick spray job using auto paint cans.

I took a look at (and registered with) the bankruptbikepart site. A good source of parts I think. My only quibble would be that it would be better if they organised it into sections. It would save wading through all the kids bike and mountain bike parts, which are numerous!


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## Kempstonian (8 Nov 2018)

I'm struggling with that bb end cup. I may have to consult the expert!


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## PHL67 (9 Nov 2018)

I have a 1966 Carlton Super Course currently being refinished. Picture took of when it was stripped down prior to leaving.


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## midlife (9 Nov 2018)

Ohhhh Victor seat stays . Classic Carlton signature detail


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## biggs682 (9 Nov 2018)

Kempstonian said:


> I'm struggling with that bb end cup. I may have to consult the expert!



oh dear


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## Kempstonian (9 Nov 2018)

biggs682 said:


> oh dear


Haha... well its not an insurmountable problem, Its just that I can't find a way to tighten the bolt up without it turning round. I have to find something to grip the bolt head that's inside the bb. I don't seem to have anything for that.


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## biggs682 (9 Nov 2018)

Kempstonian said:


> Haha... well its not an insurmountable problem, Its just that I can't find a way to tighten the bolt up without it turning round. I have to find something to grip the bolt head that's inside the bb. I don't seem to have anything for that.



depending on what size bolt you could try your car wheel nut removing tool


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## Kempstonian (9 Nov 2018)

I've just been to see a mate down the road and he's lent me a socket set with an extension bar, so I have now got what I needed... but so far its refusing to budge. Maybe a piece of scaffold pole is needed now? It had a liberal dosing of WD40 yesterday but I'll give it some more.


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## PHL67 (9 Nov 2018)

Kempstonian said:


> I've just been to see a mate down the road and he's lent me a socket set with an extension bar, so I have now got what I needed... but so far its refusing to budge. Maybe a piece of scaffold pole is needed now? It had a liberal dosing of WD40 yesterday but I'll give it some more.


Give it some heat.


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## Kempstonian (9 Nov 2018)

PHL67 said:


> Give it some heat.


Do you mean with a blowtorch or just put more effort into it? lol

I've found a piece of pipe and done a few more turns with that. Tomorrow I'll increase my efforts... I don't have a blowtorch!


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## Kempstonian (9 Nov 2018)

biggs682 said:


> depending on what size bolt you could try your car wheel nut removing tool


Yeah, the bolt head is about 18mm across. I tried the wheel nut remover for size and its quite a bit too big. The socket set I borrowed has one that fits, so that problem is sorted now. Next I just have to put some real force into it I think. Hope nothing breaks!


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## Steve-W (10 Nov 2018)

There is a very good Facebook page named " Carlton Cycles of Worksop" there are some very knowledgeable members there.


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## Kempstonian (11 Nov 2018)

I think I need a bigger bolt and a bigger spanner! All efforts have failed so far. The bolt head is looking a bit chewed up and the washers are all deformed.

I took a break yesterday and decided to strip the paint off. A couple of liberal coatings of paint stripper did the trick - well sort of... it easily took all the red off and left me with a blue frame! It has however revealed a frame number - WM7003597. I don't know much about frame numbers, so I have no idea if this helps to identify it as a Carlton or not.

This morning I decided to see if the guys who did a couple of excellent spray jobs on my car have the facility to shot blast the frame for me and give it a coat of primer. Then I'll mask it and get them to give it a coat of a single colour. After that I'll add accent colours myself.


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## midlife (11 Nov 2018)

W = Worksop
M = September
7 = 1977

The rest is a unique frame I'd. Is there any yellow on the frame along with the blue?


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## Kempstonian (11 Nov 2018)

midlife said:


> W = Worksop
> M = September
> 7 = 1977
> 
> The rest is a unique frame I'd. Is there any yellow on the frame along with the blue?


None at all, in fact there are no other colours, its just plain (metallic) blue. No indication of any logos or a name and the head tube hasn't had a rivetted badge on it either. Bearing in mind how old this frame must be I'm even thinking that the blue itself might even be a respray job, as its so unusual to have a plain all over colour on a bike of that age.


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## Kempstonian (15 Nov 2018)

Well I bought a bigger bolt and washers - and I'm back to square one! I have no socket that fits, so I can't stop it turning round when I tighten the bolt.

And just to add to my problems the new tyres I got don't seem right for the wheels. I might have bought the wrong tyres. 

Assembling a bike never used to be this hard...


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## Soltydog (16 Nov 2018)

I've bought one as a winter project. All stripped down now, apart from the BB & headset. I haven't got the tool for the BB so I'll pop it into LBS next week. Initially I was hoping to keep costs to a minimum, but think I'm going for a top respray job now, 
I'll post more details & pics once the build is complete


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## Kempstonian (16 Nov 2018)

New (correct size) tyres ordered!


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## EltonFrog (16 Nov 2018)

Do you really need to remove the fixed cup?


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## Kempstonian (16 Nov 2018)

CarlP said:


> Do you really need to remove the fixed cup?


Well maybe not I suppose... it had a cottered bb and I want to change that to a square one. Maybe I'll leave it in then!

I just hate to get beaten by a problem... lol

I don't suppose sand blasting will hurt it and I'll mask it off when I get the respray done.


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## EltonFrog (16 Nov 2018)

Kempstonian said:


> Well maybe not I suppose... it had a cottered bb and I want to change that to a square one. Maybe I'll leave it in then!
> 
> I just hate to get beaten by a problem... lol
> 
> I don't suppose sand blasting will hurt it and I'll mask it off when I get the respray done.



I couldn’t get my fixed cup out, but I wasn’t planning on changing to square. So I just cleaned the bejaysus out of it and replaced new bearings, sorted.


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## Kempstonian (16 Nov 2018)

I'm wondering now if the cups are the same? Maybe I'll HAVE to take it out!

Another quick trip to the 'about to close' Homebase in the morning I think, to buy a socket that fits. They had a lot the other day so I hope they haven't sold them all.


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## EltonFrog (16 Nov 2018)

It’s all part of the learning curve. ( for me it was more like a mountain)


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## Kempstonian (16 Nov 2018)

CarlP said:


> It’s all part of the learning curve. ( for me it was more like a mountain)


Indeed.

I just checked and the tyres I bought will fit on my Giant Defy 5... so I'll keep them.


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## Illaveago (17 Nov 2018)

I have a friend that has a Carlton. It is bright yellow!  And seems to have been painted with a yard broom! The paint is that thick that any signs of frame numbers have disappeared. It has Flyer painted on it but the lugs don't look very ornate. It has Weinmann Centre pull brakes and has the rear cable mounting to show that they originally came fitted . The rear mech is a Huret Svelto which seems to date it to post 63. Where the paint has chipped off the rear dropout I can see a copper colour.
I was wondering if it could be a Flyer?


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## Kempstonian (17 Nov 2018)

You could compare it to this:

http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/bikes/neil-carlton-rb.html


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## midlife (17 Nov 2018)

The Flyer came with a few lug choices etc but almost universally had the typical Flyer seat stay cluster, wrap round with the points just not quite meeting in the middle.


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## Illaveago (20 Nov 2018)

I said it was Yellow!


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## midlife (20 Nov 2018)

Yep, yellow lol. Not Crespera lugs, more Oscar Egg? Might be a bit older than you think. Any frame number?


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## Illaveago (20 Nov 2018)

midlife said:


> Yep, yellow lol. Not Crespera lugs, more Oscar Egg? Might be a bit older than you think. Any frame number?


 Can't see anything.The paint is that thick you should be able to feel it from where you are sitting.


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## midlife (20 Nov 2018)

Hmm, wrap round stays but those lugs.... Franco Italia? Blimey I wish my memory was better lol


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## Illaveago (20 Nov 2018)

midlife said:


> Hmm, wrap round stays but those lugs.... Franco Italia? Blimey I wish my memory was better lol


I wonder how much of the original gear came with it ? The stem has Ava on it. The brakes are Weinmann centre pulls and the rear mech is Svelto.


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## midlife (20 Nov 2018)

Illaveago said:


> I wonder how much of the original gear came with it ? The stem has Ava on it. The brakes are Weinmann centre pulls and the rear mech is Svelto.



Yep, that had me thinking too, on the surface its a 70's Carlton with a name beginning with "C" ..... If so it should have Crespera lugs.


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## Oldfentiger (20 Nov 2018)

My 1970 Carlton Truwel
Crespera lugs, Huret Svelto rear mech, Weinmann centre pulls.
Original colour was metallic gold, but thr green is original.
No wrap around seat stays.
Dunno if this helps.


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## Illaveago (20 Nov 2018)

I've just read about the "Death Stem". He is already pushing his luck by having it that far out. 
I'll take a closer inspection of the parts tomorrow to see if I can find a frame number.


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## Illaveago (20 Nov 2018)

Oldfentiger said:


> View attachment 439747
> 
> My 1970 Carlton Truwel
> Crespera lugs, Huret Svelto rear mech, Weinmann centre pulls.
> ...


Thanks! I have found gold/ copper in places underneath that glorious yellow paint.


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## Kempstonian (20 Nov 2018)

Illaveago said:


> I said it was Yellow!
> View attachment 439735


What size frame is that? It looks quite small.


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## Illaveago (21 Nov 2018)

Kempstonian said:


> What size frame is that? It looks quite small.


Yes, it feels small. I'll measure it later.


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## Illaveago (21 Nov 2018)

It is a 21 1/2 inch frame . I removed the saddle and felt down inside and found a seam, so I assume it could be Truwell or something similar.


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## flashspix (21 Nov 2018)

I have this 1967 Franco Italia in my collection.

It was a bare metal resto that I completed towards the end of summer.


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## Illaveago (21 Nov 2018)

flashspix said:


> I have this 1967 Franco Italia in my collection.
> 
> It was a bare metal resto that I completed towards the end of summer.
> 
> View attachment 439849


That looks really nice.


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## Kempstonian (22 Nov 2018)

flashspix said:


> I have this 1967 Franco Italia in my collection.
> 
> It was a bare metal resto that I completed towards the end of summer.
> 
> View attachment 439849


Nice job! Are they the original colours?


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## Kempstonian (22 Nov 2018)

CarlP said:


> It’s all part of the learning curve. ( for me it was *more like a mountain*)


Looks like I have joined the mountaineering club!

I don't think I can use that frame at all. Luckily I haven't spent a lot of money on it, just time in getting most of the paint off. Why I didn't check before I don't know - but there's no way I'll get a rear wheel with a 5 speed, 130mm axle in there. I just measured the rear stays gap and its only 112mm! I know the stays can be opened out but not that much.

So I'm looking for another frame now...


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## midlife (22 Nov 2018)

Kempstonian said:


> Looks like I have joined the mountaineering club!
> 
> I don't think I can use that frame at all. Luckily I haven't spent a lot of money on it, just time in getting most of the paint off. Why I didn't check before I don't know - but there's no way I'll get a rear wheel with a 5 speed, 130mm axle in there. I just measured the rear stays gap and its only 112mm! I know the stays can be opened out but not that much.
> 
> So I'm looking for another frame now...




If its 4.5 inches then that's good old Sturmey Archer 3 speed territory.....


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## Kempstonian (22 Nov 2018)

midlife said:


> If its 4.5 inches then that's good old Sturmey Archer 3 speed territory.....


Really? I've never had a bike with Sturmey Archer gearing. I was assuming it would be for a fixed wheel or single gear free wheel.

Live and learn...


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## midlife (22 Nov 2018)

Just remembered it has a braze on for a rear derailleur cable so scratch the 3 speed idea lol.


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## Kempstonian (22 Nov 2018)

midlife said:


> Just remembered it has a braze on for a rear derailleur cable so scratch the 3 speed idea lol.


Hmmm... yes, all the more strange then that the gap is so small. The frame looks straight enough, so I don't think it has been bent. Curious...


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## midlife (22 Nov 2018)

Kempstonian said:


> Hmmm... yes, all the more strange then that the gap is so small. The frame looks straight enough, so I don't think it has been bent. Curious...



Just checking, was it a typo and should be 121mm


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## Kempstonian (22 Nov 2018)

Nope. Just checked for the third time and its definitely 112mm.


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## biggs682 (22 Nov 2018)

Kempstonian said:


> Nope. Just checked for the third time and its definitely 112mm.



Sounds like it the rear stay or stays have been squashed to me 

Do you fancy a nice old Dawes ?


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## Kempstonian (22 Nov 2018)

biggs682 said:


> Sounds like it the rear stay or stays have been squashed to me
> 
> Do you fancy a nice old Dawes ?


Maybe... what size is it mate?


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## biggs682 (22 Nov 2018)

Kempstonian said:


> Maybe... what size is it mate?



22"


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## Kempstonian (22 Nov 2018)

biggs682 said:


> 22"


Well its the right size... do you have a pic? And how much?

You might be right about my frame. I've just looked more carefully and the drive side stay may be slightly bent inwards - but its very slight. Maybe 5 or 6mm at most.


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## biggs682 (22 Nov 2018)

Kempstonian said:


> Well its the right size... do you have a pic? And how much?
> 
> You might be right about my frame. I've just looked more carefully and the drive side stay may be slightly bent inwards - but its very slight. Maybe 5 or 6mm at most.



it's this one 1966 Dawes Debonair rides lovely an ideal winter bike or strip it and have it painted then rebuild your choice


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## Kempstonian (22 Nov 2018)

Yes, I'd be interested in that - have you taken it apart again now then, or are you selling the complete bike?


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## biggs682 (22 Nov 2018)

Kempstonian said:


> Yes, I'd be interested in that - have you taken it apart again now then, or are you selling the complete bike?



It's complete


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## biggs682 (26 Nov 2018)

CarlP said:


> Do you really need to remove the fixed cup?



It's out now


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## Kempstonian (26 Nov 2018)

Looking at the size of that bolt I can say the one I was using was nowhere near big enough!


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## mikeymustard (26 Nov 2018)

Kempstonian said:


> Looking at the size of that bolt I can say the one I was using was nowhere near big enough!


I think you're suffering bolt envy!


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## Kempstonian (27 Nov 2018)

mikeymustard said:


> I think you're suffering bolt envy!


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## Illaveago (27 Nov 2018)

Here is my Carlton Competition.


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## Black Sheep (28 Dec 2021)

Not the best photo as it's tucked in a cluttered corner (post Christmas sort out pending) 

But the rusty old bike from page 1, later orange now looks like this:





Kind of as it should, it's a bit 'Trigger's broom' in that the fork was replaced in the late 60's or early 70's having been split by my dad
Wheels built by me in the initial re-build at the start of this thread
Deraliurs (it's now got lugs for front gears) are Shimano arabesque and the Weinmann centre pulls have been replaced with Weinmann side pulls. 

I guess it makes it look like it's had a bit of a life with parts being replaced over the years when they've worn out. 

Just need to test ride, final adjustments and then bar wrap it.


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## Astore (4 Jan 2022)

Not currently got a Carlton, but I did have a Super Course during the 80s / early 90s. IIRC it was the top of the line when I bought it, round 1984.


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## DCLane (4 Jan 2022)

My son's Carlton Corsa fixie, which he'll take to university if he goes this September:


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## bagpuss (27 Jan 2022)

My International circa 1963 


Carlton International by rebalrid, on Flickr


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## JtB (28 Jan 2022)

This is my old Carlton Circuit that I bought in 1978 while I was still at school.


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## alchurch (28 Jan 2022)

lovely Carlton .mine had Weinmann 999 c/p brakes and a nice shiny campy g/s. despite all the changes and improvements to modern bikes, the vintage stuff is still my definition of nice


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## Kempstonian (28 Jan 2022)

I might have posted this before but I bought this...










...and after replacing the bent forks I turned it into this:










Previously I bought this






Which now looks like this:






Not original but at least they are rideable!


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