# Going carless



## Easytigers (9 May 2014)

This is long but just wanted to share if anyone else is thinking of getting rid of the car:
Around two weeks ago I declared to the staff at work that I was going carless for a few months. I'd discussed it with the wife...we get our shopping delivered, have shops etc in the village and can use the bus if we needed it to get to the local town. 
The car is a bit of a money pit...had to spend quite a lot on it over the last few years and the petrol gauge starts to go down as soon as you unlock the doors! MOT was due and there were more squeaks and groans than a .... I'll let you finish the analogy! I knew it was going to cost...a lot!
The car goes to the hubby of the cleaner at work who does MOTs to check it over and see if it's better to scrap it. The theory is that we scrap it, take a few months to save up enough to get a little run-around, and I cycle in everyday. Great theory! Crap execution!
First day without a car...had a meeting at work that finished at 10pm...cycled home then had to get back on the bike at 6.30 the next day...so tired!
Day three...cycled the 10 miles to work then had a meeting at another site that I had to cycle (suited and booted) 8 miles to...arriving sweaty and feeling horrible...the meeting only lasted 30 mins! Then had to cycle back to work, then later back to home
Day four: My son had to miss a birthday party as it was from 7-9pm at a soft play place that is miles from home and is a major faff for anyone to come over to where we live to pick him up...he's still not forgiven me!
Day six (weekend): realised that, although the village is nice, we tend to go out every weekend to stop getting 'cabin fever'....cabin fever sets in!
Day seven (still weekend): Local shop had run out of bread and had to cycle 6 mile round trip just to get a loaf (I actually enjoyed it but realised that that could happen quite a lot) 
Over the next few day I had another couple of late meetings and must say that I started to get up really feeling like not cycling (that NEVER happens normally when I've got the option to drive...I'd always choose the bike!)
The car went through the MOT and it only cost £95!!! Result!!!!
Got the car back (there's still a couple of things that need to be sorted but it's roadworthy!)...I hate to say it but it's sooooooooooo nice to be able to drive again.
The great experiment was an eye opener...I can do without a car...but its a real pain in the arse!!!


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## daSmirnov (9 May 2014)

Depends on your usage don't it. :-)

We don't have a car, work couple of miles away, two supermarkets about a mile away, town centre about a mile away. Mrs does the shop on her bike, she commutes a similar distance to her work by bike.

Do have a motorcycle for the odd times (handful of times a year) where I need to work at one of our other locations which can be 20-30 miles away.

Only rarely do we wish we had a car - the odd times when we need to transport a lot of stuff to her parents 50 miles away - but hardly worth the expense keeping it on the road.


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## sazzaa (9 May 2014)

How could you have put such little thought into this? I love the idea of going carless but in reality it's not even remotely possible! Did you really not think about meetings, ferrying kids about etc?


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## Easytigers (9 May 2014)

sazzaa said:


> How could you have put such little thought into this? I love the idea of going carless but in reality it's not even remotely possible! Did you really not think about meetings, ferrying kids about etc?


I know, I know!!! Was easy to decide on, sat on the sofa, romanticising about being fuel free etc! It didn't take long for me to realise though!!!


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## sazzaa (9 May 2014)

Easytigers said:


> I know, I know!!! Was easy to decide on, sat on the sofa, romanticising about being fuel free etc! It didn't take long for me to realise though!!!


It's actually quite funny, like the kind of daft badly thought out plans I make after a few pints :-)


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## Julia9054 (9 May 2014)

My car fell to bits about a month ago. I contemplated doing without for about an afternoon. We live in a rural-ish area and whilst it would probably be possible most of the time, it would be the loss of independence and having to ask favours and rely on others that I couldn't cope with.
I reluctantly bought another one.


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## SatNavSaysStraightOn (9 May 2014)

I know we could not live where we do now (or any of the places we have done in the past) without at least 1 car in the household, but rural life is much more dependant on needing one. Public transport here is 'interesting' and expensive, once you have actually found a bus stop (or walked to the railway station). I have tried using the bus once to get to my doctors when I was unable to cycle there and a round trip of 12.5 miles cost over £6 return and took me more than twice as long. I have long since given up trying to use public transport in the areas I have lived in - its fine in towns, but getting to my parents home some 22 miles away I find it quicker to cycle both ways than try public transport and I am not a fast cyclist.

Whilst I would love to return to not having a car, it is just not feasible where we live, nor with my health problems.


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## GrumpyGregry (9 May 2014)

I think to go carless as an individual you have to live within walking distance of everything you need to get to and have an alternative to cycling to work for when it just ain't all that. To do it as a family I think you need to have grown up kids and a partner who is equally willing to do without a car. TLH isn't. I'm carless and it suits me fine. She still has her car though we try to avoid using it at weekends. Some of our friends and family live in places, small villages mainly, that you just can't get to via public transport. So we use TLH's car, though sometimes I cycle there.


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## sazzaa (9 May 2014)

I reckon I could give up my car for a motorbike, does that still count as going carless or is it cheating?


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## Flying Dodo (9 May 2014)

I think it's a question of planning and being prepared to make some sacrifices. 

I got rid of my car 3 years ago (and my now ex-wife, but that's another story). Despite having 2 teenagers and living in a small village, I can get a week's shopping for 4 of us on a 6 mile round trip to the supermarket on my cargo bike, and every few months I do a large internet shop for bulky/heavy things like toilet rolls, cat food etc. The garage looks like we're expecting to have to survive a nuclear holocaust with the volume of stuff stockpiled at times! 

We probably end up using taxis a few times a month for when the buses don't run, such as after 6 pm, but the amount spent on those is peanuts compared to the approx. £200 pm the car used to cost me in fixed costs such as MoT, insurance, routine servicing, VED etc, simply sat on the drive.


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## sazzaa (9 May 2014)

My car cost less than a grand and seems to run on air, there's no reason to have a car that costs loads!


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## John the Canuck (9 May 2014)

sazzaa said:


> My car cost less than a grand and seems to run on air, there's no reason to have a car that costs loads!



£1000 is ok.....................'air' is not

- in reality
£1000 not saved
insurance
MoT
maintenance 
tyres - eventually
breakdowns

I did give up my car in January - bike to village, or buses are free [pensioner]
the ONLY drawback for me is transporting anything big
in a way - that's a cost saving too - canna buy any more bikes.............


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## screenman (9 May 2014)

sazzaa said:


> My car cost less than a grand and seems to run on air, there's no reason to have a car that costs loads!


I would disagree with you on that one. But I see no reason for anyone who needs a bike worth more than £100


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## mustang1 (9 May 2014)

My local supermarket is (each way:
8 mins walk away,
3.5 mins on bike inc locking time
1.5 mins on car inc parking time

I take the car every time not due to laziness, but time saved. Occasionally I walk though, but will never take the bike.
16 mins walk
7 mins bike
3 mins car
I live right next to excellent public transport links but won't give up the car. I use it very rarely, but I won't give it up.


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## screenman (9 May 2014)

I do about 100 miles a day in the car, I wish I could do some of them on the bike.


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## Mr Haematocrit (9 May 2014)

What about car n+1 ?


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## Cuchilo (9 May 2014)

I got rid of cars many years ago but i do have a van . A really big van  I hate driving and every time i go out in it i seem to put £20 of fuel in it . Personally i think i could do without it but business wise its needed . Not for my needs but for my customers .
Hmmmm delivery charges may start happening !


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## young Ed (9 May 2014)

being 15 i of course can't drive yet, and only rarely do i get a lift
i cycle to school most days of the week (15 mile roundtrip) and shopping would be possible with a trailer but parents do that in a vehicle 

i admit i will be learning to drive and getting a van when i am 17 probably though but mainly due to business needs and farming needs but will still ride to school etc
Cheers Ed


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## young Ed (9 May 2014)

Cuchilo said:


> I got rid of cars many years ago but i do have a van . A really big van  I hate driving and every time i go out in it i seem to put £20 of fuel in it . Personally i think i could do without it but business wise its needed . Not for my needs but for my customers .
> Hmmmm delivery charges may start happening !


sorry but being a van fan my self  i can't help but wonder what really big van you have? sprinter/vw crafter? iveco daily? what engine?
Cheers Ed


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## Cuchilo (9 May 2014)

young Ed said:


> sorry but being a van fan my self  i can't help but wonder what really big van you have? sprinter/vw crafter? iveco daily? what engine?
> Cheers Ed


A white one . Movano or something , high and long so im told by people that charge me money for it .


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## Cuchilo (9 May 2014)

I think you will find i did say that .


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## marzjennings (9 May 2014)

Mr Haematocrit said:


> What about car n+1 ?



That's more likely to happen for me than ever getting to n=0.


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## clid61 (10 May 2014)

Carless, wife needs car, always out working, i commute on bike 18 mile round trip and ride everywhere for little stuff except shopping ,everything else is less than 30 minute walk away, occasionally taxi back from shopping if i cant be arsed walikng with bags. Manchester and liverpool 45 minutes on train. Holidays train straight into ringway, happy days! Stress free life not sat behind wheel! Wonderful life hands on the hoods!


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## summerdays (10 May 2014)

I don't think we could manage at the minute, but I do have a friend at work who does. She has teenage children, and they are expected to walk/bike/bus themselves around with the occasional lift from friends parents, she has arranged a car share with a neighbour for some of the occasions she needs a car, or other times uses the city car scheme. And then for holidays she usually goes by train, she's been late into work a couple of times (I've covered for her it wasn't a problem), so that she could get the cheap train tickets for their holidays.

I think she worked out that even with taxis, fares etc it was still cheaper than having a car sat on the drive going nowhere.


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## L14M (10 May 2014)

User said:


> You don't say.


Atleast its not a black one with a sign that says free candy..


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## sazzaa (10 May 2014)

User said:


> You don't say.


Why are most vans, caravans and boats white anyway? Or worse, dirty cream?


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## Cuchilo (10 May 2014)

sazzaa said:


> Why are most vans, caravans and boats white anyway? Or worse, dirty cream?


They are cheaper  You have to pay a couple of thousand £ to get it sprayed a pretty colour . If its used for business that's a massive waste of money especially if you can get a vinyl wrap for a lot less .


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## gavroche (10 May 2014)

My car never sits on the drive going nowhere. It is always going somewhere. I wouldn't even contemplate not having one. The bike is for pleasure only and not practical for every day necessities.


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## EltonFrog (10 May 2014)

young Ed said:


> being 15 i of course can't drive yet, and only rarely do i get a lift
> i cycle to school most days of the week (15 mile roundtrip) and shopping would be possible with a trailer but parents do that in a vehicle ....
> Cheers Ed



This is very commendable in my opinion. Most of the teenagers I know get ferried everywhere by thier parents.


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## Ganymede (10 May 2014)

Cuchilo said:


> They are cheaper  You have to pay a couple of thousand £ to get it sprayed a pretty colour . If its used for business that's a massive waste of money especially if you can get a vinyl wrap for a lot less .



I didn't actually know that - I've had two wonderful vans in the past (long wheelbase white transit minibus with half the seats out and then a really long grey wheelbase Nissan crew van, both for touring theatre but brilliant for many things) and I LOVED driving them. Now no need for one and I split travel between a little car and the bike, though I'm still known to hire a van for moving props/sets/costume occasionally.

Re taxis - the OP could have used one for the party that his son missed, but I bet it would have seemed prohibitively expensive at the time. It's very hard to have a vision in advance of how rarely you will use taxis and I think the fear would be "omg I am going to be spending £50 every week on some trip or other". I'm thinking that you wouldn't be able to see whether it's going to be cheaper over time, compared to a car, until after a few months.


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## L14M (10 May 2014)

CarlP said:


> This is very commendable in my opinion. Most of the teenagers I know get ferried everywhere by thier parents.


Err...

To be fair i always offer to cycle. Recently i've started cycling to school, just as fast as the train but £1.25 a day cheeper. That's a new tyre every 2 weeks or 2 tyre levers a day. Or a innertube every 4 days. Thinking of it like this it always adds up!

Liam


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## EltonFrog (10 May 2014)

L14M said:


> Err...
> 
> To be fair i always offer to cycle. Recently i've started cycling to school, just as fast as the train but £1.25 a day cheeper. That's a new tyre every 2 weeks or 2 tyre levers a day. Or a innertube every 4 days. Thinking of it like this it always adds up!
> 
> Liam



Fair enough.


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## Cuchilo (10 May 2014)

Ganymede said:


> I didn't actually know that - I've had two wonderful vans in the past (long wheelbase white transit minibus with half the seats out and then a really long grey wheelbase Nissan crew van, both for touring theatre but brilliant for many things) and I LOVED driving them. Now no need for one and I split travel between a little car and the bike, though I'm still known to hire a van for moving props/sets/costume occasionally.
> 
> Re taxis - the OP could have used one for the party that his son missed, but I bet it would have seemed prohibitively expensive at the time. It's very hard to have a vision in advance of how rarely you will use taxis and I think the fear would be "omg I am going to be spending £50 every week on some trip or other". I'm thinking that you wouldn't be able to see whether it's going to be cheaper over time, compared to a car, until after a few months.



I like driving the van , i just hate driving it around London . Even the parking spaces are getting smaller so once you have spent two hours going five miles you then have to spend another two looking for a space big enough to fit the van in , then you have to move it after two hours and find another space 
I do have plans to kit it out and go off with the bike for a few day though . It would convert into a great camper


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## KneesUp (10 May 2014)

We have a car, and as work is in the same direction for the OH and I, we go in together with the bike in the boot (so I get to work clean, dry and sweat-free) and I cycle home.

Supermarket is 5 mins walk or the same time on the bike including locking-up time. I walk unless we need heavy stuff.

The car is invaluable for getting all of us around though, as our daughter is only 4. We walk to school though. I'd like to use the car less, and have in the past not had one and just hired cars when I've needed them, but we need it too often for that to be viable now, and nor do I see it being any less viable as daughter gets older. That said, most days it only does about 6 miles.

We don't have a lot tied up in the car though - it's worth less than a lot of C2W bikes, but is reliable and can easily fit 3 bikes and 3 people inside.


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## summerdays (10 May 2014)

CarlP said:


> This is very commendable in my opinion. Most of the teenagers I know get ferried everywhere by thier parents.


Not only that but mine get ferried by parents who take pity on them when they have to walk 10 mins from their child's house to mine! Note we don't offer the same service!!


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## Sara_H (10 May 2014)

When I was deciding about going carless I sorn'ed mine for six months first.

I didn't really miss it, so when it was written off a few weeks after putting it back on the road I made the decision not to replace it.

I much prefer life without the car. I live within five miles of work, and have very good amenities available within a couple of miles. I save a vast amount of money, have no hassles with MOT and insurance (the hassles I had with the insurance when I had to claim were one of the things that put me off owning a car again)

My OH does have a car, which I use occasionally (probably about once per fortnight) , so appreciate I'm not rally living the car free dream, but I'm of the mind that I save so much money by not using the car that the occasional taxi/car hire would make better sense to a lifestyle like mine.

The only downside for me is like an occasion in a few weeks time. I have to go to a day conference that's difficult to get to by public transport. I'm cadging a lift with a colleague, but if she wasn't going it'd either be car hire or a hotel the night before.

Getting my son to parties has been difficult at times, the popular party venue ATM is laser quest at the other side of the city in a shopping centre designed to be got to by car. This is one of those occasions where I splash out on a taxi.

The other thing is having to organise holidays and days out that are accessible by public transport. The worlds your oytster, but it does take more planning than just picking a spot on the map and driving straight there.


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## Octet (10 May 2014)

I don't like driving, so I never completed my test when I started to learn. I can't say I have never looked back, there are times when it would be advantageous for me to be able to drive, however in the long run I think I'm better off.

Living where I do, nothing is more than 10-15 miles away and there are plenty of corner shops which allow you to pick up your bread or milk without any fuss. The only disadvantage I would say about cycling is the hills, you either take the coastal road around but be pelted by the North Atlantic winds or you have to go up and over.

I might consider a motorcycle in the future (or if I moved to England), however for now I am more than content with my pushang.


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## Ganymede (10 May 2014)

Sara_H said:


> I save a vast amount of money,



Ain't this the truth. Last year, with a 7-mile round trip commute on 3 or 4 days a week, plus about another couple of 7-mile utility journeys, I saved well over £1000. That's just calculating using mileage (about 42p per mile, or 45, can't remember exactly which measure I used) and parking fees. The amount I saved in parking fees was more than I saved in petrol - daily parking at my commuting railway station costs £5.50 per day for a car. Plus, I have a lot of gaps in my work schedule so that was really only for about 38 weeks in the year.

I use the bike for some shopping but we do a supermarket shop in the car about every two weeks and my husband isn't a cyclist so he uses his car a lot more than I use mine. We live in a rural area and have elderly parents so there is always the threat of an emergency needing a car.


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## Sara_H (10 May 2014)

Ganymede said:


> Ain't this the truth. Last year, with a 7-mile round trip commute on 3 or 4 days a week, plus about another couple of 7-mile utility journeys, I saved well over £1000. That's just calculating using mileage (about 42p per mile, or 45, can't remember exactly which measure I used) and parking fees. The amount I saved in parking fees was more than I saved in petrol - daily parking at my commuting railway station costs £5.50 per day for a car. Plus, I have a lot of gaps in my work schedule so that was really only for about 38 weeks in the year.
> 
> I use the bike for some shopping but we do a supermarket shop in the car about every two weeks and my husband isn't a cyclist so he uses his car a lot more than I use mine. We live in a rural area and have elderly parents so there is always the threat of an emergency needing a car.


I think I read somewhere that it costs about £15 per day on average to run a car. So if I have to spend £15 to get my son home from a birthday party occasionally, I don't really care!

As there's only 3 of us at home, I can more or less do a weeks grocery shopping on my bike. I have two large panniers, a big front basket and bungees on the rack. The only time I use the car is when I need to buy dog food, he has the 20kg sacks of dry food, though I have brought this home by bus and trolley on occasion.

I've also recently got a second hand single seat child trailer to use as a cargo trailer. So far it's been used to tow my sons speedway bike to the track. Guess I could use this for the dog food.


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## screenman (10 May 2014)

Is it really only about saving money? Today I am taking rubbish to the skip 16 miles each way, picking up paint 10 miles other direction. Plus whatever else pops up, I would have to make a very large lifestyle change to go car less, including work.


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## Ganymede (10 May 2014)

Sara_H said:


> I think I read somewhere that it costs about £15 per day on average to run a car. So if I have to spend £15 to get my son home from a birthday party occasionally, I don't really care!
> 
> As there's only 3 of us at home, I can more or less do a weeks grocery shopping on my bike. I have two large panniers, a big front basket and bungees on the rack. The only time I use the car is when I need to buy dog food, he has the 20kg sacks of dry food, though I have brought this home by bus and trolley on occasion.
> 
> I've also recently got a second hand single seat child trailer to use as a cargo trailer. So far it's been used to tow my sons speedway bike to the track. Guess I could use this for the dog food.



I have just remembered my nephew used to have a Mule trailer and I bet he doesn't use it now... 

I do think it's easier for me because I'm in a two-person household, so we simply don't have that much shopping most of the time, apart from animal feed and bedding (chickens and sheep). We also have good farm shops, a little local shop and a large village with everything about 3.5 miles away. No buses means that most people here drive absolutely everywhere though I am seeing an increase in leisure cycling. People love that I ride around with a big wicker basket strapped to my rack, filled with potatoes etc. but they don't do it themselves!

btw A huge number of long-distance leisure cyclists drive down our lane - I'm always convinced there's a high percentage of CC-ers going past!


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## Ganymede (10 May 2014)

screenman said:


> Is it really only about saving money? Today I am taking rubbish to the skip 16 miles each way, picking up paint 10 miles other direction. Plus whatever else pops up, I would have to make a very large lifestyle change to go car less, including work.




Oh no! Never ONLY about saving money. But it can be surprising how much you save (and can therefore use on hire cars or taxis). LOVE the cycling!


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## Ganymede (10 May 2014)

screenman said:


> Is it really only about saving money? Today I am taking rubbish to the skip 16 miles each way, picking up paint 10 miles other direction. Plus whatever else pops up, I would have to make a very large lifestyle change to go car less, including work.



And soz, yes, realise what you're saying there - I wouldn't be able to go carless where I live, and there are always things you need motorised transport for I'm afraid. I mean, the carless take buses, taxis and trains and eat food delivered by lorries so we all need it in some way.


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## Sara_H (10 May 2014)

screenman said:


> Is it really only about saving money? Today I am taking rubbish to the skip 16 miles each way, picking up paint 10 miles other direction. Plus whatever else pops up, I would have to make a very large lifestyle change to go car less, including work.


No, not really.

I first started riding years ago because parking at my workplace wasn't possible and public transport was very difficult, impossible on a weekend, riding was the easiest option.

I actually don't like driving, especially on motorways and would always prefer to ride or take the train if I can. I got to a point where I so rarely used the car that it just seemed daft to keep it.

I acknowledge that this presented situations where it would just be easier to hop into a car, but with a bit of planning and investment in suitable equipment I've found a solution to most of the barriers.


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## KneesUp (10 May 2014)

The £15 per day cost of a car must include depreciation on the 'average' new car. Ours costs nothing like that - I get tax, insurance and depreciation to less than £2 per day, and then about 13p per mile in fuel. I guess you can add on a pound a day for servicing and repairs. Given that minimum bus fare for 1 person is £1.70 it's actually cheaper than public transport - which is absolutely ridiculous.


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## GrumpyGregry (10 May 2014)

mustang1 said:


> My local supermarket is (each way:
> 8 mins walk away,
> 3.5 mins on bike inc locking time
> 1.5 mins on car inc parking time
> ...


What do you do with the time you save?


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## Sara_H (10 May 2014)

KneesUp said:


> The £15 per day cost of a car must include depreciation on the 'average' new car. Ours costs nothing like that - I get tax, insurance and depreciation to less than £2 per day, and then about 13p per mile in fuel. I guess you can add on a pound a day for servicing and repairs. Given that minimum bus fare for 1 person is £1.70 it's actually cheaper than public transport - which is absolutely ridiculous.



I think it includes depreciation new or second hand - but you're right, it was an average. Some will spend much more, some much less.

Agree with you about bus fare - it's extortionate. It costs me £5.20 to get to the city centre and back with my son, a journey of four miles each way, so as a rule we go on the bikes!


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## dave r (10 May 2014)

I've just gone the other way, I brought a car about eighteen months ago, for the previous thirty years I was car free, we brought up our family without a car, we walked, used buses, occasionally got lifts and I cycled everywhere, for shopping we either used the bus or walked and used a large shopping trolley. holidays, we either took coach holidays or hired a car, now the kids have left, the mortgages are finished off, there's a little cash spare and we are now in our sixties and perhaps a little less mobile so a car makes sense.


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## young Ed (10 May 2014)

@L14M and @CarlP 
i cycle most places as i simply love it and prefer riding to sitting in a damn car! most people in my year would struggle with 10 miles or even 5, but having cycled now on and off for years comparatively my things are probably like elephants 

@Cuchilo 
one day will save the pennies and get a nice road bike and a nice kayak and a nice sprinter and kit it out as i camper and tour Scandinavia riding the long flat nice open roads and paddling the lakes and fjords!  
Cheers Ed


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## Ganymede (10 May 2014)

young Ed said:


> @L14M and @CarlP
> i cycle most places as i simply love it and prefer riding to sitting in a damn car!



Ah, Ed, you may change your mind a bit when you are old enough to actually be the driver... means you are in charge, not just sitting there! But I can tell you will never lose your love of cycling!


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## screenman (10 May 2014)

Ganymede said:


> Ah, Ed, you may change your mind a bit when you are old enough to actually be the driver... means you are in charge, not just sitting there! But I can tell you will never lose your love of cycling!


Not like that other guy who used to film everything.


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## young Ed (10 May 2014)

Ganymede said:


> Ah, Ed, you may change your mind a bit when you are old enough to actually be the driver... means you are in charge, not just sitting there! But I can tell you will never lose your love of cycling!


i would much, much rather be in a tractor than a car! thus why i will end up as a sheep farmer 
Cheers Ed


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## uclown2002 (10 May 2014)

L14M said:


> Err...
> 
> To be fair i always offer to cycle. Recently i've started cycling to school, just as fast as the train but £1.25 a day cheeper. That's a new tyre every 2 weeks or 2 tyre levers a day. Or a innertube every 4 days. Thinking of it like this it always adds up!
> 
> Liam



Do they not teach English at your school?


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## KneesUp (10 May 2014)

I have to do Sheffield-London-Sheffield tomorrow. To be honest I'm glad I'm not cycling, or travelling by tractor, @young Ed 

The alternatives are: 

train - takes too long to get to the train station on a Sunday morning / too expensive to park if I drive / trains always seem to be cancelled for engineering works on Sunday / 2 x returns to London are more than it costs to go by car / takes to long to get from train station to the bit of London I need to go to

coach - as train, except slower and less pleasant

Car it is then. Sometimes they're the only option.


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## young Ed (10 May 2014)

uclown2002 said:


> Do they not teach English at your school?


A few extra full stops and a non-capital 'I' and an before a vowel is all he's missed! 


KneesUp said:


> I have to do Sheffield-London-Sheffield tomorrow. To be honest I'm glad I'm not cycling, or travelling by tractor, @young Ed
> 
> The alternatives are:
> 
> ...


Why not the tractor?! some of them do 45mph or so and full air-con' and air suspension seats and they just crush any traffic or road works and you have full on board field mapping etc;very useful in London! 
Cheers Ed


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## cyberknight (10 May 2014)

Unfortunately a car is needed .
I do cycle commute to work 20 mile round trip although there is no public transport to where i work and i cant give an exact finish time as its work till done kind of job .
Wife has the main use of the car with me ans a named driver and she uses it mainly for shopping , erm mebbe 2-3 miles away for a family of 4 shop , ferrying kids one of whom has kidney problems and need regular check ups at children's hospital and the wife gets tired easily due to her medical issues .


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## John the Canuck (10 May 2014)

young Ed said:


> ............... thus why i will end up as a sheep farmer ..Cheers Ed



bad career move..!.....................


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## SWSteve (10 May 2014)

@young Ed FYI



> 826.5 miles this year *87%* of 1,000 mile target



826 is not 87% of 1000, it's 82.6% 


sorry, but that really got my goat


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## cyberknight (11 May 2014)

ItsSteveLovell said:


> @young Ed FYI
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As long as he can count the sheep in the field he will be fine , either that or he is to busy thinking about bikes to pay attention in class


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## screenman (11 May 2014)

Would he not fall asleep trying to do the first one?

No offense Ed.


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## cyberknight (11 May 2014)

screenman said:


> Would he not fall asleep trying to do the first one?
> 
> No offense Ed.


depends what else he has planned with the sheep on lonely night
























shearing of course!


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## ufkacbln (11 May 2014)

I cycle exclusively, and one of my "best" days at work was during the PFI build.

3 hours of meetings, 4 hours of cycling in the sun, and on each occasion, I beat my colleagues who were driving to the meetings!


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## sazzaa (11 May 2014)

I'd love to think I'd saved money by cycling, but the cycling clothes and accessories I seem to buy on a weekly basis fairly add up! It can also mean leaving work a bit earlier than I would in a car, so I lose a bit of a wage there.


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## Brandane (11 May 2014)

screenman said:


> Not like that other guy who used to film everything.


Whatever happened to him? Hated drivers, loved cycling. Then passed his driving test, bought a car, and .... disappeared .


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## cyberknight (11 May 2014)

Brandane said:


> Whatever happened to him? Hated drivers, loved cycling. Then passed his driving test, bought a car, and .... disappeared .


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## GrumpyGregry (11 May 2014)

I shall be walking to the shops in a minute.


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## Bodhbh (11 May 2014)

I got rid of my car a few years back and it was one of the best things I've ever done. Circumstances tho - I was 20 stone, no kids (so no problem there) and living just inside the M25. I lost 8 stone, took up this hobby here we talk about, and gained whole new outlook on life - getting out and about, backpacking, touring, *enjoying* walking 4miles and back to pick up 20kg of groceries, cycling 70 miles to catch a plane, etc.

Kids and even a partner changes things. Ill health is no fun in these circumstances either. I had a hernia op and suddenly was totally immobile and housebound. Still, I'd recommend anyone thinking about it to give it a crack.


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## KneesUp (11 May 2014)

Bodhbh said:


> I got rid of my car a few years back and it was one of the best things I've ever done. Circumstances tho - I was 20 stone, no kids (so no problem there) and living just inside the M25. I lost 8 stone, took up this hobby here we talk about, and gained whole new outlook on life - getting out and about, backpacking, touring, *enjoying* walking 4miles and back to pick up 20kg of groceries, cycling 70 miles to catch a plane, etc.



I stopped living in London a long time ago and since then I've found a car too useful to give up, but I wish I could go back and tell my younger self to not buy the expensive flashy saloon car and instead to buy a usefully sized car like a Berlingo or something plus three bikes (off-road, road and hybrid) and a tent to go in the back of it, and to have taken more holidays. It would have cost less and been much more fun.

I pass this advice on for the benefit of those young enough to not repeat my mistake


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## GrumpyGregry (11 May 2014)

I wish I could persuade TLH to have a Kangoo van as her 'car'. Having reflected on this thread the only time I really miss having a motor is when I want to sling an mtb in the back and drive to some distant hills. My mtb'ing is rather curtailed by where I can get to on a weekend in an hour by direct train; Sat/Sun South Downs/North Downs/Surrey Hills and Sun South Downs only really.


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## Nigeyy (11 May 2014)

EasyTigers, I really enjoyed the candidness of your post. I also would love to go carless, but I do know it's not a reality for me. The first problem is the kids; I really need motorized transportation to get them to various activities -or pick them up from school at times. The second problem is work. Having to go to work and working late at night in all sorts of weather just doesn't get my cycling juices flowing..... Then there is the weather -not just rainy, but extremely hot and humid in the summer and bitterly cold here in the winter with good levels of snowfall (would I want to be on the road then? From just a safety point of view, no way!). Lastly there is no real public transportation available where I live. I think almost any one of the above is very large nail in the coffin to the idea of going carless.

On the bright side, when the kids are off out in the world and I don't have to work or be somewhere (so my time isn't at a premium, and I don't mind waiting for public transportation) and I have a more practical choice as to where to live -well, I would love to give going carless a go then! As others have posted, it really depends on your own needs -usually dictated by whether you have kids, what kind of job you have, where you live and life choices.


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## young Ed (11 May 2014)

John the Canuck said:


> bad career move..!.....................


that's some nice icing sugar you have their! in Sweden where i will be farming we easily get a few feet of snow and have to keep the sheep inside in a proper sheep house for 4-5 months purely in silage and hay



ItsSteveLovell said:


> @young Ed FYI
> 
> 
> 
> ...


sorry, will fix in a tick but now i'm not sure if i have done 826 miles or 870???  can anyone remember what my old ticker was on?


cyberknight said:


> As long as he can count the sheep in the field he will be fine , either that or he is to busy thinking about bikes to pay attention in class


plenty of practice and it is bloody hard!


screenman said:


> Would he not fall asleep trying to do the first one?
> 
> No offense Ed.


in Sweden where i will be farming we drink lots of coffee for that reason!  


cyberknight said:


> depends what else he has planned with the sheep on lonely night
> 
> 
> 
> ...


nah, it's lambing at this time of year and it is damn hard work as i know from some lambing work during my easter holidays 
Cheers Ed


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## Ganymede (11 May 2014)

young Ed said:


> that's some nice icing sugar you have their! in Sweden where i will be farming we easily get a few feet of snow and have to keep the sheep inside in a proper sheep house for 4-5 months purely in silage and hay
> 
> 
> sorry, will fix in a tick but now i'm not sure if i have done 826 miles or 870???  can anyone remember what my old ticker was on?
> ...



I used to have some Swedish sheep - Gotlands. Lovely fleece but flighty like a lot of primitive breeds. I keep a tiny flock of 6 ewes a couple of which have Gotland blood and therefore amazing long curly white fleeces.

Completely off-topic though, especially as I don't think I would manage a bag of sheep cake on the back of my bike from the feed store!


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## .stu (12 May 2014)

Isn't the thing to do is to just leave the car on the drive as much as possible? If you make an effort not to use the car, and a conscious decision to not give in and make up poor excuses to justify using the car (there seems to be a lot of those in this thread), then maybe one day you might wake up to find the car has been on the drive unused for a month?


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## Ganymede (12 May 2014)

.stu said:


> Isn't the thing to do is to just leave the car on the drive as much as possible? If you make an effort not to use the car, and a conscious decision to not give in and make up poor excuses to justify using the car (there seems to be a lot of those in this thread), then maybe one day you might wake up to find the car has been on the drive unused for a month?



I actually have problems with my car from lack of use. The boot went a bit mouldy inside, and because the battery is never at the top of its charge, the terribly modern eco-thing which cuts out the engine at the lights doesn't always work. It's also filthy because I park it under a tree and then only realise when I get into it how disgusting it is, by which time I'm on a schedule and haven't time to clean it. Poor thing, should be taken into care really.


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## LCpl Boiled Egg (12 May 2014)

.stu said:


> Isn't the thing to do is to just leave the car on the drive as much as possible? If you make an effort not to use the car, and a conscious decision to not give in and make up poor excuses to justify using the car (there seems to be a lot of those in this thread), then maybe one day you might wake up to find the car has been on the drive unused for a month?



Our car failed it's MOT because we didn't use it enough - some part of the catalytic converter apparently. We were told we could fix it, and then make sure we used it regularly, or sell it and see how we got on without it. As we'd only used it six times in the previous year, we got rid. That was about five years ago, and we're still carless.


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## Ganymede (12 May 2014)

ABikeCam said:


> Our car failed it's MOT because we didn't use it enough - some part of the catalytic converter apparently. We were told we could fix it, and then make sure we used it regularly, or sell it and see how we got on without it. As we'd only used it six times in the previous year, we got rid. That was about five years ago, and we're still carless.


Ha! That's pretty cool. However, I use mine at least once a week so it's not quite so neglected. TBH I've never been a great one for washing my car anyway. I tend to just close the door and walk away without a backward glance, and not think about it until it's time to get back in it again. Possibly not the best policy!


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## KneesUp (12 May 2014)

.stu said:


> Isn't the thing to do is to just leave the car on the drive as much as possible? If you make an effort not to use the car, and a conscious decision to not give in and make up poor excuses to justify using the car (there seems to be a lot of those in this thread), then maybe one day you might wake up to find the car has been on the drive unused for a month?


We might (at a pinch) not use ours for four weeks in the school holidays (supermarket a walk/ride away, park the same) but when it comes to going away there are few alternatives to a car when your 1980s tent (reduce/reuse/recycle) weighs (literally) as much as you do!

Would we die without a car - no.
Would our lives be much harder and less fun without a car - yes. (and we'd see family less too)

It's a ridiculous situation when owning, running and maintaining a car (albeit a 10 year old car - but everything works as it should and there is no rust) is cheaper than using public transport for a family of three, but that is what privatising 'public' transport has done - if more peope used it, we'd all benefit even if we didn't use it ourselves (less pollution, less traffic) - and if we all benefit we should all pay - i.e. it makes sense to subsidise it. It does not make sense to subsidise it and let companies make profit from it.

For example - return to my parents house 3 x bus fares (would get 1 x family day ticket) £5. 3 x train fares (best price about £25 return) another £5 family bus ticket at the other end because it's a different city = £35 and a journey that is less flexible, takes longer and involves putting up with other people (and not taking much luggage)

Or we can go in the car for £15.


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## Ganymede (12 May 2014)

KneesUp said:


> We might (at a pinch) not use ours for four weeks in the school holidays (supermarket a walk/ride away, park the same) but when it comes to going away there are few alternatives to a car when your 1980s tent (reduce/reuse/recycle) weighs (literally) as much as you do!
> 
> Would we die without a car - no.
> Would our lives be much harder and less fun without a car - yes. (and we'd see family less too)
> ...


Too true, alas. I love the train....


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## GrumpyGregry (12 May 2014)

If you want to go carless you have to make other lifestyle choices that support that decision. Where you live, where you work, where you socialise, where your important rellies live, how you travel, are all things you have to think about and take into account. But, and this is always the controversial assertion, it is about choice and recognising the choices you have to make to go carless and the choices you make to stay a car user.*

*someone will be along in a bit to say something along the lines of "but I have no choice I need a car".


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## Ganymede (12 May 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> If you want to go carless you have to make other lifestyle choices that support that decision. Where you live, where you work, where you socialise, where your important rellies live, how you travel, are all things you have to think about and take into account. But, and this is always the controversial assertion, it is about choice and recognising the choices you have to make to go carless and the choices you make to stay a car user.*
> 
> *someone will be along in a bit to say something along the lines of "but I have no choice I need a car".


You have a point GG but I think where you work is one of the most important factors and this is often the most difficult to have much power of choice over, particularly if supporting a family. A free choice in everything would be lovely. I speak as one whose work would involve a lot of travel wherever I lived, although less if I lived in London, and that's purely down to the nature of the industry. I could just give up work, I suppose...


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## GrumpyGregry (12 May 2014)

Ganymede said:


> You have a point GG but I think where you work is one of the most important factors and this is often the most difficult to have much power of choice over, particularly if supporting a family. A free choice in everything would be lovely. I speak as one whose work would involve a lot of travel wherever I lived, although less if I lived in London, and that's purely down to the nature of the industry. I could just give up work, I suppose...


Did you not, at some point, choose to work in the industry you work in?


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## Ganymede (12 May 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> Did you not, at some point, choose to work in the industry you work in?


Yeah, when I was about 15... it's vocational.

I'm not disputing that people choose, and as I said, I could choose to give it up and do something else, but I still think that work is one of the least easy things to change if you have responsibilities (which I don't).


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## Kookas (12 May 2014)

ItsSteveLovell said:


> @young Ed FYI
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You rounded wrong, it would be 827.

Saying that, you'd be surprised at how often I see rounding errors in the answers on the mark schemes of Chemistry A-Level papers.


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## Flying Dodo (12 May 2014)

KneesUp said:


> We might (at a pinch) not use ours for four weeks in the school holidays (supermarket a walk/ride away, park the same) but when it comes to going away there are few alternatives to a car when your 1980s tent (reduce/reuse/recycle) weighs (literally) as much as you do!
> 
> Would we die without a car - no.
> Would our lives be much harder and less fun without a car - yes. (and we'd see family less too)
> ...


 
Except £15 isn't the cost to take the car - that's only the fuel cost. You need to factor in all the fixed costs such as VED, insurance, depreciation, cost of car loan, repairs etc. Now if your car was sat on the drive for weeks without going anywhere, as mine was, due to me deliberately trying to use the bike as much as possible, and planning ahead to buy ridiculously cheap advance train fares, it makes it easier to realise you don't really need the car.


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## KneesUp (12 May 2014)

Flying Dodo said:


> Except £15 isn't the cost to take the car - that's only the fuel cost. You need to factor in all the fixed costs such as VED, insurance, depreciation, cost of car loan, repairs etc. Now if your car was sat on the drive for weeks without going anywhere, as mine was, due to me deliberately trying to use the bike as much as possible, and planning ahead to buy ridiculously cheap advance train fares, it makes it easier to realise you don't really need the car.


If you'd read my previous posts you'd realise that my car doesn't meaningfully depreciate because I bought it as a fully serviced, fully functional, high mileage 9 year old car - so for £1200 I get a big boot, 40mpg, climate control, comfy seats and a full length sunroof.

As a worse case I can weigh it in for scrap and get £300 back - I think it's fair to assume it willl last at least another 6 months given it passed it's MOT with no advisories and runs very well - so worse case it will depreciate by £900 in 2 years, or £1.23 per day.

I paid cash for it, so there is no loan. It costs me about £300 per year in servicing and bits - wiper blades and so on - another 82p per day.

Car tax is 40p per day, and inusrance is another 96p.

I get that to a fixed cost of £3.41 per day. Diesel for the journey to my parents and back costs a bit over a tenner. Ergo a return trip for up to 5 people in my car to my parents is about £15. In total. Let's be generous and say I spend an extra £1500 a year on car bits that I've forgotten about - it's still less than £20 for that journey.

I've just checked on the trainline and the cheapest return rail fare (for 2 adults and a child) is £45.75. And we'd need bus tickets each end - another £10 - total cost of a slower, less convenient, less flexible and in my experience less reliable mode of transport = £55.75.

You will also note that I didn't say we would die without the car. I said it would make life less enjoyable and/or more expensive.


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## Alun (12 May 2014)

Not many people complain that running their car is too cheap, good for you KneesUp!


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## Sara_H (12 May 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> If you want to go carless you have to make other lifestyle choices that support that decision. Where you live, where you work, where you socialise, where your important rellies live, how you travel, are all things you have to think about and take into account. But, and this is always the controversial assertion, it is about choice and recognising the choices you have to make to go carless and the choices you make to stay a car user.*
> 
> *someone will be along in a bit to say something along the lines of "but I have no choice I need a car".


You're absolutely right. About 18 months ago I was in the midst of applying for a job outside Sheffield that was going to mean massive changes to my lifestyle. I may have had to buy a car, or I may have managed a bike/train/bike commute, I'm not sure. As luck would would have it I missed the interview as I was in hospital!
For the first time a couple of years ago my son and I went on a cycle camping holiday, and despite all the exotic holidays he's had in his little life, he rates those few days riding and camping in Derbyshire as the best holiday ever.
This year we're going to Robin Hoods Bay (our favourite place in the world. Train to bike and train to Scarborough then ride along the disused railway line from Scarborough to Robin Hood's Bay. Can't wait!


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## KneesUp (12 May 2014)

Alun said:


> Not many people complain that running their car is too cheap, good for you KneesUp!


Oi cheeky!

My complaint is that public transport is a public good - i.e. it's something we all benefit from, whether we use it or not. This means we should all pay for it and it should be run in the public's interest - not in the interests of shareholders.

Public transport will rarely be the fastest option for any journey unless you are going from a station to a station - in my example the city centre to city centre part of the journey to my parents is faster by train than car, but because neither my parents nor I live actually in the station, the journey from house to house is quicker by car.

It will rarely be the most comfortable option either - in my car I can set the temperature (to the nearest half a degree if the dash is to be believed) and I get to choose the music whilst getting a guaranteed window seat that has never had a strangers boots rested on it, sitting with people I like.

It will never be the most convenient because my car stops outside my front door and goes wherever I like. Even the bus stop is a 10 minute walk over a hill - the train is that walk plus a walk from the bus depot to the train station - which is at least covered by a roof now. Apart from the bit that isn't. And of course if I want to take the bikes I have to book them on in advance by phone - and then if I miss the train they're booked on I just have to give up.

In short, if you own a car there is little to persuade you to use public transport, and yet in other countries people do use it - because there it is cheap.

I used to get the bus home a few days a week before I had my bike, because we only run one car and it saved my partner having to come and collect me - but what is a 15 minute jounrey by car took 66% longer by bus - plus there was a 15 minute wait for the bus at the start and a 10 minute walk at the other which turned what would be a 15 minute jounrney costing about 40p in diesel into a 50 minute journey on a smelly bus that cost £1.70. In summer I used to just walk, but some people don't have that choice.

Public transport needs to be cheaper so people use it in greater numbers. This will benefit all of us. When I lived in Europe everyone used the tram - sure it was a bit less convenient than the car, but the trams stopped all over, and becuase so many people used them they ran realy frequently so you never had to wait long, and the cost per day if you bought a quarterly pass was a matter of pence - so even if people had cars they didn't use them to go on local journeys.


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## Ganymede (12 May 2014)

KneesUp said:


> Oi cheeky!
> 
> My complaint is that public transport is a public good - i.e. it's something we all benefit from, whether we use it or not. This means we should all pay for it and it should be run in the public's interest - not in the interests of shareholders.
> 
> ...


A million recommends to you, KneesUp.


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## Sara_H (12 May 2014)

KneesUp said:


> Oi cheeky!
> 
> My complaint is that public transport is a public good - i.e. it's something we all benefit from, whether we use it or not. This means we should all pay for it and it should be run in the public's interest - not in the interests of shareholders.
> 
> ...


Interesting when comparing car and public transport that one of the positives for the car is its door to door properties. But how often do you drive somewhere that you can't park close to where you're going and end up walking 15 minutes after you've parked? This was why I started riding.
No staff parking and very limited on street parking meant circling the area for an undefined length of time, then a long walk to/from the workplace, through some places that weren't all that nice to walk through at night at the end of a shift!


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## Easytigers (12 May 2014)

User said:


> Does it have the algae growing round the windows thing?


That happened to mine as well!


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## KneesUp (12 May 2014)

Sara_H said:


> Interesting when comparing car and public transport that one of the positives for the car is its door to door properties. But how often do you drive somewhere that you can't park close to where you're going and end up walking 15 minutes after you've parked? This was why I started riding.
> No staff parking and very limited on street parking meant circling the area for an undefined length of time, then a long walk to/from the workplace, through some places that weren't all that nice to walk through at night at the end of a shift!



I have a parking permit so I can always find somewhere to park within 2 or 3 minutes walk of work.I guess it varies a lot. I've only had two jobs where I've commuted by car (apart from this one) and there have been staff car parks at both, albeit one was barely big enough.


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## Alun (12 May 2014)

KneesUp said:


> It will rarely be the most comfortable option either - in my car I can set the temperature (to the nearest half a degree if the dash is to be believed) and I get to choose the music *whilst getting a guaranteed window seat* that has never had a strangers boots rested on it, sitting with people I like.


I would hope so if you are driving!


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## Ganymede (12 May 2014)

User said:


> Does it have the algae growing round the windows thing?


A bit... actually lichen...


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## GrumpyGregry (12 May 2014)

KneesUp said:


> Public transport will rarely be ... *It will rarely be the most comfortable option either - in my car I can set the temperature (to the nearest half a degree if the dash is to be believed) and I get to choose the music whilst getting a guaranteed window seat that has never had a strangers boots rested on it, sitting with people I like.*
> .
> .
> In short, if you own a car there is little to persuade you to use public transport, and yet in other countries people do use it - because there it is cheap.
> ...


I don't buy it and think you've got the equation the wrong way around. And I also think the bit in bold is why we love our private cars so much; hell is other people.

Anyway private car use, especially sole-occupancy needs to be made much more expensive and its convenience removed by ceasing the practise of designing our town centres, and out-of-town shopping centres, around the needs of the pampered private car user. 

Then public transport will be relatively cheaper AND more convenient.


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## Nigeyy (12 May 2014)

I think there's an amazing amount of personal choice in life if you think about it. However, whilst _theoretically_ true, _practically_ you usually have far less choices. 

Sure you could give up work (as I could!). But practically the prospect of not providing for your kids or sponging off someone else or becoming homeless just isn't really a practical choice for me.

I do think going carless must be much easier if you don't have kids who depend on you, don't have family medical issues and don't have to work.

I'm looking forward to one day possibly having an opportunity to try it though!



Ganymede said:


> Yeah, when I was about 15... it's vocational.
> 
> I'm not disputing that people choose, and as I said, I could choose to give it up and do something else, but I still think that work is one of the least easy things to change if you have responsibilities (which I don't).


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## vickster (12 May 2014)

I don't really need a car but I like having one and that's my choice. I realise it costs me oodles to sit on the drive but again that's my choice...can't take it with you and all that 

I also have three bikes, at least one of which I don't really need, but again...and given I am constantly injured from cycling it seems, (and I don't much like cycling when it's cold and wet) probably best not to give up the car just yet!


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## KneesUp (12 May 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> I don't buy it and think you've got the equation the wrong way around. And I also think the bit in bold is why we love our private cars so much; hell is other people.
> 
> Anyway private car use, especially sole-occupancy needs to be made much more expensive and its convenience removed by ceasing the practise of designing our town centres, and out-of-town shopping centres, around the needs of the pampered private car user.
> 
> Then public transport will be relatively cheaper AND more convenient.



Realistically no government is going to make travelling by car significantly more expensive in a short period. I think making the price difference larger by making public transport cheaper is a more realistic aim.


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## vickster (12 May 2014)

Can't see that happening either, in London it pretty much goes up by 5% or something annually. Ageing population, more and more people who actually use public transport don't pay for it, at least in London, so it'll probably get more expensive for the people who pay

Bit like the NHS I guess!


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## SWSteve (12 May 2014)

Kookas said:


> You rounded wrong, it would be 827.
> 
> Saying that, you'd be surprised at how often I see rounding errors in the answers on the mark schemes of Chemistry A-Level papers.



I didn't do any rounding


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## KneesUp (12 May 2014)

vickster said:


> Can't see that happening either, in London it pretty much goes up by 5% or something annually. Ageing population, more and more people who actually use public transport don't pay for it, at least in London, so it'll probably get more expensive for the people who pay
> 
> Bit like the NHS I guess!


The government doesn't set the prices though becuase for reasons best known to the Tories it's all been privatised, so now instead of a subsidised public good that was cheap we now have a subsidised public good that's privately owned and - in a way I've never understood - gets a subsidy and makes a profit.


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## summerdays (12 May 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> Anyway private car use, especially sole-occupancy needs to be made much more expensive and its convenience removed.


I cycle beside a dual carriageway where one lane is a 2+ lane in the morning. What I see every morning is that it is being totally abused and ignored by a significant number as nothing is done to penalise those who are flouting the rules. It seems pointless having the lane if it won't be policed as it then becomes a source of annoyance between rule-breakers, those with 2 people in the car using it legally, and those who follow the rules and have to watch the others making slightly better progress. I get annoyed at it and I'm not even on the road!!


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## GrumpyGregry (12 May 2014)

Nigeyy said:


> I think there's an amazing amount of personal choice in life if you think about it. However, whilst _theoretically_ true, _practically_ you usually have far less choices.
> 
> Sure you could give up work (as I could!). But practically the prospect of not providing for your kids or sponging off someone else or becoming homeless just isn't really a practical choice for me.
> 
> ...


Is the only choice between doing the job you currently do in the place(s) you do it vs not providing/sponging.

A startlingly binary life we lead!

btw those kids.... your choice too


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## .stu (12 May 2014)

KneesUp said:


> If you'd read my previous posts you'd realise that my car doesn't meaningfully depreciate because I bought it as a fully serviced, fully functional, high mileage 9 year old car - so for £1200 I get a big boot, 40mpg, climate control, comfy seats and a full length sunroof.
> 
> As a worse case I can weigh it in for scrap and get £300 back - I think it's fair to assume it willl last at least another 6 months given it passed it's MOT with no advisories and runs very well - so worse case it will depreciate by £900 in 2 years, or £1.23 per day.
> 
> ...



I think it depends how often you go to your parents tho. If you only go once a month and it's the only thing you really need a car for, then it will cost you a lot more than £15 per journey - more like £110 according to your calculations.

Personally, I prefer to catch the bus/train if possible when going out with the family, but that's because I am the only driver in the household, which can be very tiring sometimes. Also on the bus/train I don't get stressed from all the traffic, I don't have to worry about parking the car, I can actually take in the scenery and I can have a drink if I want. I could even rest my eyes if I so pleased (like the rest of family like to do in the car while I drive them home after a long day out). 

For a while I used a folder and cycled/bussed to work out in the sticks. This required getting up a bit earlier to get the bus, but also meant I put in an extra half hour overtime every morning. The journey took a fixed 50 mins instead of the 30-50 mins it took by car, but the best thing was I could chat with the other passengers, read the free newspaper, gaze out of the window, browse the internet on my phone and generally just chill out and let the driver get stressed dealing with the traffic. I had an old banger like kneesup at the time, and the fuel costs were more than my weekly bus pass.

Where I work they think I am mad tho, because they do not believe it is possible to cycle more than a mile - now I cycle regularly I can do the 13 mile journey in less than 40 minutes on a daily basis.


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## Nigeyy (12 May 2014)

I meant it more in the vein of you could just pack up your job and not work -strictly speaking there really isn't anything stopping you from actually doing that. But there are repercussions....

Absolutely my choice to have kids no doubt about it. Alas, having medical issues with one of my kids isn't a choice I made  and it necessitates easy access to large hospital-like medical care. But hey, such is life (I mean who said it was going to be easy?)

I don't think it's that binary though; I'm a bit of an optimist and I think you can change a lot in your life -you just have to be prepared to accept different (as in worse and better) stuff. But still no doubt for me: work, kids, medical stuff,etc really do effectively limit choices (and I don't mean that in a negative way either, more just as a statement of fact).

Reminds me of when my brother complained about paying his mortgage: I think he expected some sympathy but I replied that it was his choice to buy a house!




GrumpyGregry said:


> Is the only choice between doing the job you currently do in the place(s) you do it vs not providing/sponging.
> 
> A startlingly binary life we lead!
> 
> btw those kids.... your choice too


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## Crankarm (12 May 2014)

People have many different lifestyles and commitments, live in hugely different areas rural vs urban. If you are free and single then yes it might be possible to live without a car and just rely on your bicycle(s) and public transport or an occasional hire car to get around. Maybe you haven't even got a driving licence. If you don't have much money then perhaps you don't have the freedom to choose so the cheapest option is made for you. Without a car though your freedom to travel is rather more limited. Like or dislike cars they have given every one a much greater freedom of opportunity whether work wise or leisure. Perhaps when posters on CC write with glee that they have not used their cars for months and they are thinking of selling or disposing of them they are really trying to say how much they love cycling which being a cycling forum is like preaching to the converted. I live in a rural area and although love my bikes and cycling I couldn't do without a car. Life and opportunities would be so much more limited. Plus when it was absolutely shedding it down with rain and blowing a howling gale I couldn't take the car instead all the way into work, so would have to ride in all the way, get utterly soaked and be totally miserable and hacked off.


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## Pat "5mph" (12 May 2014)

Cuchilo said:


> A white one . Movano or something , high and long so im told by people that charge me money for it .


WVM  
When I needed a van for a girls outing with the bikes, I gave the job to a Red Van Man


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## Pat "5mph" (12 May 2014)

screenman said:


> Not like that other guy who used to film everything.


Don't be too harsh, he'll be back on his bike when he hits 30.


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## Sara_H (12 May 2014)

Interestin that we forget when the discussion starts about going carless, that some people never drive in the first place. 

I grew up in a mostly carless household, as my Mum never learnt to drive and my Dad died when I when I was 10. 

I also have two friends who have never learnt to drive and have managed to work, live and bring up children without driving a car.


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## sazzaa (12 May 2014)

Hardly any of the women in my family drive and they're a complete pain in the @rse, always needing lifts or having to plan things around not having a car. Really annoying for hospital visits etc, since there's no direct bus to the local hospital.


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## Nigeyy (13 May 2014)

Ooo that's a good point. Somehow you can survive without a car (still got to say that it makes life far easier and provides more choices though if you do have one!)



Sara_H said:


> Interestin that we forget when the discussion starts about going carless, that some people never drive in the first place.
> 
> I grew up in a mostly carless household, as my Mum never learnt to drive and my Dad died when I when I was 10.
> 
> I also have two friends who have never learnt to drive and have managed to work, live and bring up children without driving a car.


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## raleighnut (13 May 2014)

Sara_H said:


> Interestin that we forget when the discussion starts about going carless, that some people never drive in the first place.
> 
> I grew up in a mostly carless household, as my Mum never learnt to drive and my Dad died when I when I was 10.
> 
> I also have two friends who have never learnt to drive and have managed to work, live and bring up children without driving a car.


I too chose not to have a car but only because I've always been far too "lairy". As a child of 4 I learnt how to ride a bike by riding my 20" wheel trike on the drive side wheel and rode like that everywhere til I got a 2 wheeler, on which I terrified everyone. When I worked at the garage I raced "grasstrack" cars with one of the other lads and rode my motorbike on the principle that if you didn't fall off on the last bend you weren't trying hard enough.
Luckily a mortgage intervened so I returned to my Carlton on which my "trick" was "stoppies" until I snapped the forks and had to replace them.
My first Mountain bike coincided with the introduction of speed humps and they were treated as ramps to "catch some air"
So ,me, a car and the road "Too Risky" and I can do anything I need with my bike and trailer so don't have to ask for lifts from friends or relatives when fetching anything that would fit in a car boot


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## Flying Dodo (13 May 2014)

KneesUp said:


> If you'd read my previous posts you'd realise that my car doesn't meaningfully depreciate because I bought it as a fully serviced, fully functional, high mileage 9 year old car - so for £1200 I get a big boot, 40mpg, climate control, comfy seats and a full length sunroof.
> 
> As a worse case I can weigh it in for scrap and get £300 back - I think it's fair to assume it willl last at least another 6 months given it passed it's MOT with no advisories and runs very well - so worse case it will depreciate by £900 in 2 years, or £1.23 per day.
> 
> ...


 
Clearly you're lucky in having such a reliable car. I'm asuming you're not bothering about factoring in a cost of a replacement.

My ex-car, despite being a Honda, in its last 2 years started to have some serious mechanical issues.

I'll freely admit that going car free has caused more physical pain and effort, as I live on top of a hill! However, from a personal point of view, I just started to feel more guilty about running a car, and the wider damage it causes, plus I wouldn't have got the Circe Helios which I normally use as a my cargo bike, which is such fun to ride. Three years on, I'm about 10kg lighter and much fitter.


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## Sara_H (13 May 2014)

Flying Dodo said:


> Clearly you're lucky in having such a reliable car. I'm asuming you're not bothering about factoring in a cost of a replacement.
> 
> My ex-car, despite being a Honda, in its last 2 years started to have some serious mechanical issues.
> 
> I'll freely admit that going car free has caused more physical pain and effort, as I live on top of a hill! However, from a personal point of view, I just started to feel more guilty about running a car, and the wider damage it causes, plus I wouldn't have got the Circe Helios which I normally use as a my cargo bike, which is such fun to ride. Three years on, I'm about 10kg lighter and much fitter.


We live at the top of a hill. We have a cunning plan to move to the bottom of the hill when my son has left school.


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## SatNavSaysStraightOn (13 May 2014)

Sara_H said:


> We live at the top of a hill. We have a cunning plan to move to the bottom of the hill when my son has left school.


The only issue with moving to the bottom of a hill is that before you have warmed up, you get a steep climb if there is no flat available in the other direction - don't ask me how I know this...


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## biking_fox (13 May 2014)

Have never owned a car, nor has OtherHalf. The only real limiting issue is spontinaity. With a car you can always just jump in it and go. Without one you do have to think a bit in advance. But it doens't limit anything about travel. there are always taxis. Or even a hire car, although we haven't needed that yet. It is more a mindset than anything else, think about alternatives before deciding oh I need to do this by car. As above 'need' is such a varaible world.

That said. We did choose where to live based on the availability of public transport links, and ditto work. And don't have kids which would make it trickier. But there are a lot of options available.


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## Sara_H (13 May 2014)

SatNavSaysStraightOn said:


> The only issue with moving to the bottom of a hill is that before you have warmed up, you get a steep climb if there is no flat available in the other direction - don't ask me how I know this...


At the minute I have one mile steep downhill at the start of my ride to work. In winter I sometimes think I might freeze to death, have tears streaming down my face, fingers like ice cubes. I have to wear a load of layers, which I inevitably have to peel off when I get to the flat/uphill section! (this is why I like a basket, for the easy throwing in of hats, coats, gloves etc as I go along).
My problem is, my house is at the top of a hill, my work is at the top of a hill and in between lies a valley!


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## Sara_H (13 May 2014)

biking_fox said:


> Have never owned a car, nor has OtherHalf. The only real limiting issue is spontinaity. With a car you can always just jump in it and go. Without one you do have to think a bit in advance. But it doens't limit anything about travel. there are always taxis. Or even a hire car, although we haven't needed that yet. It is more a mindset than anything else, think about alternatives before deciding oh I need to do this by car. As above 'need' is such a varaible world.
> 
> That said. We did choose where to live based on the availability of public transport links, and ditto work. And don't have kids which would make it trickier. But there are a lot of options available.


This is my plan. We know the area we're moving to, good public transport links, good access to one of the cities major cycle routes that accesses the city centre, train station etc, good local amenities. Work will still be uphill, but coming home will be downhill and I'll eliminate the killer hill back to my current home every day.
Only problem I foresee is that my Mum will still be living at the top of the hill, but then there'll be a bus up with the Brompton on those days!


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## Nigeyy (23 May 2014)

Interesting link here: 

https://autos.yahoo.com/news/how-this-woman-saved--3000-a-year-by-ditching-her-car-170435412.html

I was reading it and remembered this thread. Of course, some of it is funny (read the "cutting out the cost of gas was also huge").


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## mustang1 (28 May 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> What do you do with the time you save?



Watch Breaking Bad.


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## GrumpyGregry (28 May 2014)

mustang1 said:


> Watch Breaking Bad.


Box set or netflix?


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## Ern1e (28 May 2014)

Got rid of my car and don't miss the beast at all ! like @biking_fox says there are plenty of alternatives to use.


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## screenman (28 May 2014)

Ern1e said:


> Got rid of my car and don't miss the beast at all ! like @biking_fox says there are plenty of alternatives to use.




Yes there are alternatives, but none of them would have got me 22 miles across Lincolnshire as quick as my car did tonight after a swim.

If you have the sort of lifestyle that can go car less then good for you, but in the few years I have left I want to get around a bit quicker thanks.

As for bikes, I am it seems a rarity in that I seldom really enjoy riding a bike, however I do enjoy the benefits it gives health wise.


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## mustang1 (28 May 2014)

KneesUp said:


> I stopped living in London a long time ago and since then I've found a car too useful to give up, but I wish I could go back and tell my younger self to not buy the expensive flashy saloon car and instead to buy a usefully sized car like a Berlingo or something plus three bikes (off-road, road and hybrid) and a tent to go in the back of it, and to have taken more holidays. It would have cost less and been much more fun.
> 
> I pass this advice on for the benefit of those young enough to not repeat my mistake


That is sage advice, sir.


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## hennbell (28 May 2014)

I don't know how it works in the UK but in Canada never let your drivers licence expire. 
If you do your insurance "experience" gets dropped. When you get your licence renewed no big deal but when you go to get insurance they rate you as a new driver and the cost shoot up. They tend to treat you like you have lost your licence for a DUI (Driving Under the Influence), the concept that someone would choose not to drive is somewhat foreign to the insurance company.


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## dave r (29 May 2014)

hennbell said:


> I don't know how it works in the UK but in Canada never let your drivers licence expire.
> If you do your insurance "experience" gets dropped. When you get your licence renewed no big deal but when you go to get insurance they rate you as a new driver and the cost shoot up. They tend to treat you like you have lost your licence for a DUI (Driving Under the Influence), the concept that someone would choose not to drive is somewhat foreign to the insurance company.



Its similar in the UK, I was car free for over 30 years and when I came back to driving I was treated as a new driver and caned on the insurance, I recently changed cars and they ramped it up again, I found somewhere a lot cheaper but found out they wanted over £80 to cancel the insurance, so as the policy hasn't got long left to run I'm taking the hit but will be moving when it expires.


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## SatNavSaysStraightOn (29 May 2014)

hennbell said:


> I don't know how it works in the UK but in Canada never let your drivers licence expire.
> If you do your insurance "experience" gets dropped. When you get your licence renewed no big deal but when you go to get insurance they rate you as a new driver and the cost shoot up. They tend to treat you like you have lost your licence for a DUI (Driving Under the Influence), the concept that someone would choose not to drive is somewhat foreign to the insurance company.


yep - all you need to do is not have a car for 12 months as the owner of a policy. The result is that you get charged much more than someone who continued with a policy even if you are a named driver on several other people's cars.


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## screenman (29 May 2014)

User said:


> There isn't a pool nearer than that?



The nearest is 12 miles away and again no bus route in the evenings, the Wednesday night session is with a Tri club and is always on my way home from a customer out that way.


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## KneesUp (29 May 2014)

There is no getting around the fact that cars are hugely convenient.

This morning I had to get to work, and the OH and our child had to get to the train station. The pubic transport option would have cost £6.80 even thought our child is free, and involved a 5-10 minute walk in the rain for all of us. Diesel in the car will cost no more than £1.50 to drop them off and pick them up, and parking at work is free. Of course I could have come on my bike, but I'd have arrived at work wet through, and it still would have cost my OH £3.40 on the bus (or more to park the car at the station).

Public transport cannot compete on convenience anywhere other than London, where the inconvenience of finding anywhere to park makes public transport a good choice despite the overcrowding and the dirt. 

It needs to be cheaper if we are to encourage more people to use it. Like it was up until 1986, when you could travel anywhere in this city for 2p (5p inflation adjusted for now)


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## hennbell (29 May 2014)

As for going carless in the Canadian prairies, it is impossible. Last week we went to the closest Indian restaurant for a take out. 550 km round trip 4.5 hours of driving. 
But seriously, the large distances combined with the cold winters make the notion of going totally without a car impossible. About the best that is realistic is a single vehicle home.


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## KneesUp (29 May 2014)

hennbell said:


> As for going carless in the Canadian prairies, it is impossible. Last week we went to the closest Indian restaurant for a take out. 550 km round trip 4.5 hours of driving.
> But seriously, the large distances combined with the cold winters make the notion of going totally without a car impossible. About the best that is realistic is a single vehicle home.


Our usual Indian restaurant will deliver if you spend over £10. I suppose that's not an option?


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## recumbentpanda (29 May 2014)

A few years back I was in a 'breakout group' in a works conference. Our mission was to discuss the organisation's transport policy. We began by telling each other how we got to work. My turn came, and I briefly and neutrally described my train/folding bike commute. 

Within seconds I was pinned to the back of my chair by a stream of people vehemently explaining to me how they couldn't possibly do anything like that, and that their cars were absolutely essential to their lifestyles. 

I hadn't said a word to imply that what I was doing was 'worthy' or to criticise their choices, but they all sprang onto the defensive as soon as I finished speaking.

Odd reaction . . . . I've noticed it elsewhere since :-)


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## Ganymede (29 May 2014)

recumbentpanda said:


> A few years back I was in a 'breakout group' in a works conference. Our mission was to discuss the organisation's transport policy. We began by telling each other how we got to work. My turn came, and I briefly and neutrally described my train/folding bike commute.
> 
> Within seconds I was pinned to the back of my chair by a stream of people vehemently explaining to me how they couldn't possibly do anything like that, and that their cars were absolutely essential to their lifestyles.
> 
> ...


When I used to be a vegetarian I learned never EVER to reply to the question "so.... why are you a vegetarian then?". Whatever you said, and however mildly, people would get defensive and start accusing me of lecturing them, even when I barely said a word. I started to respond thusly: "Oh, the usual reasons. So, what about the football/latest political idiocy/next door's new paint job etc".

And I absolutely SWEAR I never lectured anyone about it, and never ever suggested that anyone else present shouldn't eat meat. People are just insecure, that's all.


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## hennbell (29 May 2014)

As for going carless in the Canadian prairies, it is impossible. Last week we went to the closest Indian restaurant for a take out. 550 km round trip 4.5 hours of driving. 
But seriously, the large distances combined with the cold winters make the notion of going totally without a car impossible. About the best that is realistic is a single vehicle home.


User said:


> The problem arises when people extrapolate from extreme examples



This is regionally based issue. Here my reality is that I very well may have to take my child on a 300 km round trip to play in his Lacrosse league, mid week, on a school night. That may be an extreme example where you are, here it is not.


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