# Back Wheel Keeps Going Out of Alignment



## JtB (12 Jul 2009)

When travelling over particularly rough terrain, the alignment of my back wheel seems to change slightly such that the disc starts to rub against the disc brakes. As a consequence I'm having to stop quite regularly to re-align the back wheel. The quick release mechanism on the wheel itself is as tight as I can make it and the disc brake mountings are also tight.

Anyone seen a similar problem? And is there a solution?


Shaun.


----------



## Steve Austin (12 Jul 2009)

it can happen for a variety of reasons, more so on mtb's as they get bumped about.
biggest culprit, ti skewers or poor skewers.
ti skewers flex so can allow wheel to jump.
the best vfm skewers are shimano. they are the best for the cash and can be bought real cheap on ebay or stw

your wheel shouldn't be jumping if the skewers are tight


----------



## Cubist (13 Jul 2009)

Shaun said:


> When travelling over particularly rough terrain, the alignment of my back wheel seems to change slightly such that the disc starts to rub against the disc brakes. As a consequence I'm having to stop quite regularly to re-align the back wheel. The quick release mechanism on the wheel itself is as tight as I can make it and the disc brake mountings are also tight.
> 
> Anyone seen a similar problem? And is there a solution?
> 
> ...



Is it a new bike? Have you recently changed the pads? My guess is that the calipers need centering on the discs. You say the mounting bolts are tight? Have you got them torqued properly? Overtightening the mounts can send the calipers out of centre. It could just be that the pads are bedding in, in which case you may have to recentre the calipers a couple of times before the rubbing stops. Some disc brake systems do this every few rides, in exactly the same way as your cables need tightening as your pads wear on v brakes, it simply becomes part of routine maintenance. Mine go out of true especially if I do a lot of steep downhill and get them hot.


----------



## JtB (19 Jul 2009)

Thanks both.

The bike is new. I tried a different skewer this week and took extra care centering the calipers on the disc. Went for quite a rough ride on the South Downs yesterday and I didn't have any problems with the bike.

Previously when I've centered the calipers, I've only had to lock the brakes a couple of times and the pads are rubbing again on the discs.

Not sure why a different skewer should make a difference, but anyway, lets see how it goes.

Thanks again.


----------



## Mr Pig (19 Jul 2009)

How are you centering the wheel? 

You should _not_ be trying to line the wheel up with the brake caliper. You should be making sure that the axle of the wheel is tight into the dropouts (slots in the frame). _Then_ move the brake caliper to line up with the disk.

If the wheel is not right into the dropouts it will move. If it is right into the dropouts it almost certainly won't.

We had a Giant bike that had totally squint dropouts, the wheel was right off to one side if you put it fully home. I'll never buy a Giant bike again.


----------



## JtB (19 Jul 2009)

My bike is a Claud Butler and the user manual is next to useless. So the method I've evolved (rightly or wrongly) is to loosen the calliper mounting bolts, back off the brake pads completely and as you say make sure the axel of the wheel is tight into the dropouts. I then tighten up the brake pads against the disc such that the callipers are centred on the disc, tighten the calliper mounting bolts and then back off the brake pads again to give some clearance.


----------



## Mr Pig (19 Jul 2009)

That should work but not all brakes will centre up that way. Some push more from one side than the other. I think you're better doing it by eye.

It's unlikely the wheel is moving, it's probably the brake calliper. What kid of brakes are they?


----------



## JtB (8 Aug 2009)

Had a puncture this weekend and had to remove the rear wheel. Then all the problems with the wheel alignment started again. But I think I've finally found a technique that works. After setting the wheel and aligning the calipers (as per above), I then need to ride the bike for a few miles and re-align the calipers. Once I do that it seems to sort itself.


----------



## Globalti (9 Aug 2009)

Something is wrong as you shouldn't need to do this.

Are you sure both brake pads are moving freely and equally? Remove the wheel and gently squeeze the brake lever then watch as the pads move - do they move equally or is one sticking or even jumping out and staying? The movement you see is in the flexibility of the piston seals but if one piston is actually able to slip slightly through its seals it will stay in the new position and rub on one side. You could probably resolve this by stripping the calipers, giving everything a good clean and even polishing the pistons then reassembling, fitting new seals if necessary. If you haven't done this for a year or so the pistons will be clogged up with grey mud and pad dust and will need servicing anyway.

The second possibility is play in your wheel bearings.


----------



## JtB (9 Aug 2009)

The bike is only a few months old and it doesn't seem to be a problem with the brake pistons/pads. After riding the bike a couple of miles the disc can be seen to be rubbing on the side of the caliper. I can only conclude that I'm unable (for whatever reason) to seat the wheel in its natural position and that I need to ride the bike for the wheel to find its own natural position.


----------



## Globalti (10 Aug 2009)

As I wrote, this is definitely wrong, the wheel should not move once the axle is seated in the dropouts and the QR tightened. How tight are you doing the QR?


----------



## Jonathan M (10 Aug 2009)

Is it a mechanical disc? If so, are the adjusters loosening as you ride, hence the need for adjustment? Would give the symptoms you describe, and I recall such uselessness from some ridiculosuly cheap mechanical discs I had many moons ago.

The fix on that IIRC was to use a zip tie to prevent the adjusters moving.


----------



## JtB (10 Aug 2009)

The QR is as tight as I can make it. Also, I didn't realise there were adjusters on the actual disc itself, I will take a closer look tomorrow. I think I'll also contact Mail Order Cycles (the supplier) to see if they can offer any advise.
Thanks all,
Shaun.


----------



## billflat12 (12 Aug 2009)

*wheel alignment*

have you checked the axle ? on my old shimano fh475 rear hub the bearing support was insufficient and the axle got bent slightly, causing the problems you have.


----------



## Globalti (12 Aug 2009)

Is the axle BROKEN? It's not uncommon, it's happened to me twice.


----------



## JtB (12 Aug 2009)

I doubt the axel is broken since I've had this problem ever since the bike was delivered new 2 months ago.

The following pictures were taken of the rear wheel alignment after my last ride. On previous rides, whenever the rear wheel went out of alignment I would realign the wheel such that it was sat tight in the drop outs. However, after another mile or so the wheel would always go back out of alignment again and I'd end up having to repeat this procedure many times during a single ride. However, on my last ride, when the rear wheel went out of alignment, instead of realigning the wheel, I realigned the brake calipers instead. This alignment is what is shown in the following pictures:

This shows the quick release lever on the left hand side of the bike.







This shows the brake alignment which is good.





This shows the other end of quick release on the right hand side of the bike.






After taking the above pictures, I then removed and replaced the rear wheel again (sitting it tight in the drop outs) and tightened the quick release lever. The resulting alignment is what is shown in the following pictures:

This shows the quick release lever on the left hand side of the bike.






This shows the other end of quick release on the right hand side of the bike.






This shows the brake alignment which is bad.






In the above picture I backed the brake pads right off and you can see the disc is still rubbing on the left hand side of the caliper (note: before I started tightening the quick release lever, the brake alignment was good, but as I started to tighten it, the rear part of the cycle frame started to flex inwards and that seemed put the brake out of alignment). My only option now (after having removed and replaced the rear wheel) is to re-align the brake caliper again, but previous experience with this bike has shown that it will be out of alignment again after another mile or so.

After taking the above pictures I then removed the skewer and took the following pictures:

This shows the axel on the left hand side of the bike.






This also shows the axel on the left hand side of the bike (with the bike upside down).






This shows the axel on the right hand side of the bike (with the bike upside down).






This shows the loosened skewer on the left hand side of the bike (with the bike upside down).





This shows the loosened skewer on the right hand side of the bike (with the bike upside down).






I don't know if the above pictures help or not.

Many thanks all,
Shaun.


----------



## billflat12 (13 Aug 2009)

what model rear hub is fitted ? the pictures seem to show some metal filings around ends of the axle suggesting the wheel is defiantly moving in the frame, you could try changing wheels with a friend to compare notes, if your wheel moves in another frame i,d go with a bent axle or poor quality bearings , if the other wheel moves in your bike i,d go with the brake adjusters or frame alignment. also your suggesting that tightening the skewers pulls the frame over , could just be your missing a spacer (or washer) on one side of the hub which takes up the slack to centre your wheel. 
I hope my suggestions make sense & helps clear your problem up soon .


----------



## Globalti (13 Aug 2009)

I agree - the pic of the LH dropout speaks volumes to me as a lifelong bodger of bikes and other wheeled vehicles. The paint has been worn off in a way that suggests movement of 2-3mm up and down in the dropout. That imprint of the back of the QR on your paint should be a clean circle with defined notches showing that the QR sits in exactly the same place every time. 

How tight are you actually closing the QR? It should be tight enough that once the lever has moved fully "over the top" beyond the point where the camming action is tightest, it is still too tight to move or rotate without a 3-4 finger effort from the right direction.

Generally I would always set up my brakes with the QR done up tight in the knowledge that the QR will clamp the frame together and bring everything into alignment. I would never attempt to adjust the caliper with the QR undone.

Added later: Why in picture 7 is the axle not sitting at the end of the slot on the dropout? If you took the picture with the bike upside down the axle should be firmly lodged at the end of the slot by the weight of the wheel.


----------



## JtB (13 Aug 2009)

Thanks all for hanging in there with me on this one, even my wife has finally lost her patience with me and my bike.

Well I think I now know what's happening, but I don't know why.

My son has the 2007 version of my bike which is the 2009 model and so I swapped wheels on the 2 bikes and the problem stuck with my bike frame. Both wheels on his bike frame were ok and both wheels on my bike frame caused a problem. So armed with this knowledge, I looked a bit closer at what was going on.

First of all with the calipers loosened and the brake pads backed right off I sat the wheel firmly in the drop outs and tightened the quick release lever as tight as I could. Then I aligned the calipers and adjusted the brake pads. After a couple of minutes of cycling up and down the curb and braking hard the back wheel started rubbing.

When I looked at the caliper I could see it was rubbing as indicated:





I then carefully loosened the quick release levers and could see that the axel was no-longer seated firmly in the right hand drop out. In fact the axel had moved in the direction shown:





Anyway, I re-seated the axel in the drop out and re-tightened the quick release lever as tight as I could and the caliper became perfectly aligned again. I repeated this simple test several times and the same thing happened each time.

Well that's what's happening. Anyone got any ideas why it's happening and how I can stop it?

On a final note, if instead of re-seating the axel in the drop outs, I re-align the caliper to the misaligned wheel, then the wheel doesn't seem to go out of alignment with the brakes anymore. However, because the rear cassette is slightly at an angle I've noticed problems with my gears (especially using the high gear at the front combined with the low gear at the back) so that's not really an option.

Once again, many thanks all,
Shaun.


----------



## billflat12 (14 Aug 2009)

ok , looks like an alignment problem with the frame, don,t know your spec. looks like a standard 135mm axle, measure this by checking the spacing of the frame after tightening the QR with the wheel in , you may just need a 1-2mm shim (spacer/washer) on the brake disc side to the centre the wheel correctly. if the spacing is correct and wheel is centred ok you may have poorly aligned disc caliper mounts on the frame. you can fine tune caliper alignment by using readily available shims, 
see http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=356

other fork shape types are available like the ones with these caliper bolts http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=17907

You could also just have an informal chat with your nearest local bike shop, i find most local bike shops are more than willing to help , some may even help you out with a few shims as most are keen cyclists themselves.

oh, on a final note a chain runs at a slight angle to a cassette high and low cogs, gear cable adjustments and alignment of a chain line should always be done with the chain on the centre cog.


----------



## JtB (14 Aug 2009)

billflat12 said:


> you may just need a 1-2mm shim (spacer/washer) on the brake disc side to the centre the wheel correctly.


 You may just have hit on something there, because I noticed there is a small gap between the 'drop outs' and the hub which results in the bike frame flexing inwards as I tighten the QR. Presumably this flexing will put the 'drop outs' out of alignment with each other and hence the axel will have a tendency to shift within the 'drop outs'. Presumably though, so long as the gap can be filled by the spacer(s) and the calliper can be centred on the disc it shouldn't matter which side the spacer(s) are located. The only reason why the disc is rubbing on the inner calliper is because the axel is slipping on the opposite side to the calliper thereby twisting the disc towards the inner calliper.


----------



## JtB (14 Aug 2009)

Well it was a fantastic idea, but spacers on the wheel didn't stop the axel from shifting under load. So returning to my earlier observation, the only way I can ride this bike is to align the caliper the the wheel after it's become misaligned.


----------



## Cubist (14 Aug 2009)

Daft question, but are you absolutely sure the axle is not bent?

The frame should flex in a few mm at the dropouts when you tighten the QR skewers, so that's perfectly normal, but if the axle shifts downwards there's an outside chance it's bent. Also, is there an equal amount of threaded axle showing either side of the cone locknuts?


----------



## JtB (14 Aug 2009)

Not sure if the axel is bent, but when I took the skewer out that was a little bent. However, I've tried a wheel off another bike and I get the same results. Also, my wheel on the other bike is fine. So whatever the problem, it seems to be associated with the bike frame.

I was wondering though whether the natural position for the rear wheel always has to be with it fully inserted into the dropouts. With my old Carlton racer, the natural position is no-where near fully inserted into the dropouts (but QR wasn't even invented then).


----------



## Cubist (14 Aug 2009)

Shaun said:


> Not sure if the axel is bent, but when I took the skewer out that was a little bent. However, I've tried a wheel off another bike and I get the same results. Also, my wheel on the other bike is fine. So whatever the problem, it seems to be associated with the bike frame.
> 
> *I was wondering though whether the natural position for the rear wheel always has to be with it fully inserted into the dropouts*. With my old Carlton racer, the natural position is no-where near fully inserted into the dropouts (but QR wasn't even invented then).




Yes. My old ten speed needed adjusting within the dropouts to align the wheel, and was temperamental. Your QR setup on the other hand should be fully inserted into the dropout, and as you do up the skewer, the frame will squeeze against the locknuts. Just try making sure it's pushed home fully and the skewers tight (the lever should make an impression on the palm of your hand as you push it closed), then undo the brake caliper mounts enough so that the caliper moves left and right when you wiggle it. Then hold the brake lever on, and do up the bolts a bit at a time, holding the lever on all the time. Once you've done this the brakes should be centred. As long as the discs are not bent, this should last for a few rides at least until you need to adjust them again. If the brakes rub after that, then there's a chance the pistons aren't returning properly, due to seized seals etc. A quick squirt of brake cleaner should do the trick. It may even be that the pads aren't installed properly.


----------



## JtB (15 Aug 2009)

After all the investigation, I've concluded the rubbing brakes are no more than a symptom of the problem, while the root cause is the frame not being able to hold the wheel in place. The bike is 2 months old and I've had this problem since the day the bike was delivered. I think its time now for the bike supplier to provide the solution, would you all agree?


----------



## billflat12 (15 Aug 2009)

*have frame checked professionally ?*

Think it may be poor frame manufacture, you may need an expert on your side before you contact supplier , if they try to stall you contact http://www.thecyclingexperts.co.uk/


----------



## Jonathan M (17 Aug 2009)

They are mechanical discs, and the cheap & nasty formula mach discs that I used to have had an adjuster that worked loose as you rode, changing the pad alignment. 

Does the problem occur with the outer pad or the inner pad tend to get into contact with the disc? Which ever pad is closing on the disc (might even be both) needs the adjuster "fastening". I used a bodge of a narrow zip tie to hold the adjuster in place and prevent them turning. I assume you have one adjuster for the outer pad, one for the innder pad, that is what the phot's appear to show??

You describe:

Setting the bike up, it runs fine

After a while your brakes rub.

Your wheel in anothr bike OK, so it isn't the wheel.

Another wheel in your frame, wheel rubs, so you've isolated it to frame or components. Without being nasty to the quality of the component, I would look closely at the brake caliper as being at fault. Any chance you can swap with the caliper on your sons bike and see what happens then?


----------



## JtB (26 Sep 2009)

Well it looks like this thread has a happy ending at last.

The bike supplier collected my bike, examined it, sent it back to the manufacturer and sent me a new replacement (which arrived yesterday). I set it up this morning, went for a short ride and didn't experience the rear wheel going out of alignment.







10 out of 10 (full marks) to the bike supplier for customer service.

Thanks all for your advise and for hanging in with me on this one.

All the best,
Shaun.


----------

