# Bad drivers - a mini rant



## simon.r (12 May 2018)

I’d guesstimate I get *very nearly* hit by a car about once every 500 miles of road riding. Today was the latest occasion. 

I spent the rest of my ride thinking about how close it was and what the implications would have been had I been injured. I’m still thinking about it, 8 hours later. 

The point of the post - I’m getting increasingly angry about drivers. Not all of them, but the drivers who just can’t drive, the able-bodied drivers who insist on driving half a mile to the shops, the drivers on mobile phones, the drivers who routinely pull into ASL’s...I could go on. 

As a result I’ve started to become an overly assertive cyclist. Doing things like getting in front of cars that pull into an ASL when there’s no advantage, taking the lane when I don’t really need to...that sort of thing. 

Which is daft, really, as I’m putting myself at more risk. 

Bloody drivers...it gets to me sometimes!


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## Tail End Charlie (12 May 2018)

If you do those things, be prepared for once every 250 miles. 

Or you could relax a bit and develop a sense of when it pays to be assertive, and when not. You'd probably end up enjoying riding more.


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## simon.r (12 May 2018)

Tail End Charlie said:


> If you do those things, be prepared for once every 250 miles.
> 
> Or you could relax a bit and develop a sense of when it pays to be assertive, and when not. You'd probably end up enjoying riding more.



I know. Just need to put it into practice!


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## stuarttunstall (12 May 2018)

I am returning to cycling after 35 years, but I must say it works both ways and respect should be both ways.......

Round here we see a lot of cyclists, especially at weekends, and a large number, but not all ride like complete idiots who think they have more right to be there than a motorist... Some are very professional and I respect that as a driver doing about 30000 miles a year... 

We have cycle paths which are just there for show, cyclist would sooner ride in the road next to the lane that is put there for there safety... in those cases cyclists should be prepared for the worst and accept it ... maybe I will feel different once i get on my bike next week lol

I will admit I rant at cyclist around here who show no respect for the motorist, in fact when I said I was getting a bike more than one said "what! you a cyclist" lol


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## snorri (12 May 2018)

stuarttunstall said:


> We have cycle paths which are just there for show, cyclist would sooner ride in the road next to the lane that is put there for there safety... in those cases cyclists should be prepared for the worst and accept it ... maybe I will feel different once i get on my bike next week lol


I sincerely hope you do start to feel differently after a few hundred miles on your new steed, or at least have an understanding as to why cyclists may not use infrastructure supposedly provided for their safety.


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## roadrash (12 May 2018)

stuarttunstall said:


> in those cases cyclists should be prepared for the worst and accept it



I really do hope you realise how wrong that statement is when you start to ride next week


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## derrick (12 May 2018)

simon.r said:


> I’d guesstimate I get *very nearly* hit by a car about once every 500 miles of road riding. Today was the latest occasion.
> 
> I spent the rest of my ride thinking about how close it was and what the implications would have been had I been injured. I’m still thinking about it, 8 hours later.
> 
> ...


Let it go. you could make yourself ill if you worry about it. Happens to us all.


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## stuarttunstall (12 May 2018)

The comment applies equally to motorists or anything really, if YOU choose not to use things that are put there for YOUR SAFETY then accept the consequences when things go wrong.... 

Comment not intended to cause arguments


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## roadrash (12 May 2018)

I'm sure you may think that all cycle paths have been put there for cyclists safety, but some/lots are downright dangerous


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## stuarttunstall (12 May 2018)

roadrash said:


> I'm sure you may think that all cycle paths have been put there for cyclists safety, but some/lots are downright dangerous



As I said may feel different when I get out there, I have never used one so I have no idea what they are like....


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## stuarttunstall (12 May 2018)

[QUOTE 5241961, member: 9609"]I like a man with balls

@smutchin I think we have the hat trick[/QUOTE]

Meaning what?


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## Ming the Merciless (12 May 2018)

stuarttunstall said:


> I have no idea



Please do return when you do.


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## Ianboydsnr (12 May 2018)

stuarttunstall said:


> I am returning to cycling after 35 years, but I must say it works both ways and respect should be both ways.......
> 
> Round here we see a lot of cyclists, especially at weekends, and a large number, but not all ride like complete idiots who think they have more right to be there than a motorist... Some are very professional and I respect that as a driver doing about 30000 miles a year...
> 
> ...



Things you will learn pretty quickly,

Road bikes are not really suitable for shared cycle lanes, you don’t want cyclists doing 30mph in among people walking their dogs, or with children running around,

Cycle lanes are full of glass, road signs, cars parked, speed detection vans, and dog poo, either in or out of bags

Cycle lanes rarely go where people want to go, or protect cyclists in the places where they need protection.
Cyclists have as much right to be there as other vehicles, even if a cycle lane is right next to the road,
Why should they be prepared for the worst and accept it?

You will attempt to get out of vehicles way, by riding close to the gutter, right up until a car or lorry skims past you doing 60mph 100mm off your right arm,

You will realise it’s perfectly legal to ride two abreast and cyclists are not breaking any laws, in doing so,

Respect is a two way street,but cars are harder than cycles.

You will get lots of negative comments, especially saying you should have a number plate and pay tax and insurance.


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## boydj (12 May 2018)

stuarttunstall said:


> As I said may feel different when I get out there, I have never used one so I have no idea what they are like....



Stuart, it's great that you have come here to ask for advice, and hopefully taken most of it on board. However, it's a bit rich to start preaching at experienced cyclists about the use or not of cycle paths when, as you say yourself, you've never used them and know nothing about them.

I hope you enjoy your cycling and stick with it as I'm sure you'll come to understand some of the reasons cyclists do the things they do that annoy certain motorists.


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## stuarttunstall (12 May 2018)

boydj said:


> Stuart, it's great that you have come here to ask for advice, and hopefully taken most of it on board. However, it's a bit rich to start preaching at experienced cyclists about the use or not of cycle paths when, as you say yourself, you've never used them and know nothing about them.
> 
> I hope you enjoy your cycling and stick with it as I'm sure you'll come to understand some of the reasons cyclists do the things they do that annoy certain motorists.



Hi

I was not preaching to anyone, I was just stating my opinion which was not meant to cause offence... 

I have received great advice from here so far and appreciate it... and as I said I may feel different when I do get out there.. If I do I will be the first to come on here and say so..


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## Lonestar (12 May 2018)

Waste of time trying to explain it....methinx.


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## stuarttunstall (12 May 2018)

Lonestar said:


> Waste of time trying to explain it....methinx.



Not a waste of time at all, I have not been on a bike for 35 years or more, I welcome people explaining things... 

One thing I have learnt is if you have an opinion "keep it to yourself" which, if I stay a member of, and use this forum I will limit my participation to asking questions until such time I know enough and keep my opinions to myself


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## Pumpkin the robot (12 May 2018)

I had a bad accident nearly four years ago. When I got back on a bike I was angry at the slightest infringement that motor vehicles commited. I got angry at drivers in ASLs, drivers getting too close, drivers jumping red lights. The list was endless. I got angry at myself for getting angry about bad driving. 
I have recently finished a course of CBT and it has changed my whole demeanor. I now realise I cannot influence other people and how they drive. I can now see that subconciously I am riding defensively andI am doing as much as I can to stop myself having another accident.


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## Milkfloat (12 May 2018)

@stuarttunstall I hope you stick with cycling and come back to this thread in a years time and realise, how can I put this politely ‘what a nobber’ you were. Sadly, your current thought process matches that of many motorists, who see ‘infrastruture’ for cyclists and somehow think it is ok to bully people into using it, sometimes with incredibly serious consequences. Fair play for having the balls to say it, but after you have experienced both the ‘infrastructure’ and drivers you may think very differently.


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## Nigel-YZ1 (12 May 2018)

I'll just leave this here: http://wcc.crankfoot.xyz/facility-of-the-month/May2018.htm
I love Facility of the Month.


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## bladesman73 (13 May 2018)

If I choose to use the road instead of a cycle path I have every right to do so..motorists can eff off


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## Seevio (13 May 2018)

stuarttunstall said:


> Not a waste of time at all, I have not been on a bike for 35 years or more, I welcome people explaining things...
> 
> One thing I have learnt is if you have an opinion "keep it to yourself" which, if I stay a member of, and use this forum I will limit my participation to asking questions until such time I know enough and keep my opinions to myself


Nah, if you have an opinion please share it. Pay no heed to the more shoutier members, it doesn't mean that you are wrong because they disagree.

What you must do, however, is be prepared to back up any arguments you have with facts. (Links to the daily mail or guardian do not count) What will get you most respect, is if someone does happen to prove you wrong, stand up and admit it. Doesn't happen to me but I'm prepared for if it, if it should happen.


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## Lonestar (13 May 2018)

stuarttunstall said:


> Not a waste of time at all, I have not been on a bike for 35 years or more, I welcome people explaining things...
> 
> One thing I have learnt is if you have an opinion "keep it to yourself" which, if I stay a member of, and use this forum I will limit my participation to asking questions until such time I know enough and keep my opinions to myself





stuarttunstall said:


> We have cycle paths which are just there for show, cyclist would sooner ride in the road next to the lane that is put there for there safety... in those cases cyclists should be prepared for the worst and accept it ... maybe I will feel different once i get on my bike next week lol



I should just accept 5h1t driving then? Like I have suffered recently from the self entitled?

No cycle lanes down some of the roads I have had the crap on,not that it would have made much difference.....The attitude out there sometimes is appalling...Punishment passes,disgraceful.

I've had this argument with a self entitled one at work when I just walked into a room and he started on me with this bu115h1t.

I don't agree with your second comment but yes you should say what you think just like I do.

I'm just sore after the crap I had to put up with on the return commute back yesterday.It was not good at all.

They let these people drive? Where's H+S when you need them?


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## Accy cyclist (13 May 2018)

simon.r said:


> the able-bodied drivers who insist on driving half a mile to the shops,



Half a mile?! That's a marathon run to many of the lazy gits! I once said to another one who thinks most motorists are tossers that if they could drive around a supermarket,just sticking their arms out the window to grab stuff they would do. Notice how more are parking in supermarket "Loading Only" bays,so they can get as close as possible to the shop,meaning they save on walking those few extra steps.


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## Randy Butternubs (13 May 2018)

Being angry at someone who seems to have an open mind isn't helpful.



stuarttunstall said:


> I am returning to cycling after 35 years, but I must say it works both ways and respect should be both ways.......
> 
> Round here we see a lot of cyclists, especially at weekends, and a large number, but not all ride like complete idiots who think they have more right to be there than a motorist... Some are very professional and I respect that as a driver doing about 30000 miles a year...
> 
> ...



Here are some points that might help inform you:

*1. The perception that cyclists are dangerous scofflaws is inaccurate. *
A TFL study a few years ago found that only 16% of cyclists ran red lights. I cant find motorist red light jumping stats but from the CTC - “Of pedestrians injured in London in a collision caused by red light jumping only 4% involve cyclists, whereas 71% occur when a car driver jumps a red light and 13% when a motorcyclist does.", which would indicate that a significant proportion of car drivers jump red lights and that (obviously) it is more dangerous when they do it. I see motorists run red lights frequently. Add to that the ubiquitous speeding, widespread phone use and still common drink-driving and it is hard to argue that motorists are more law abiding than cyclists. It is _impossible _to argue that they are not more dangerous given the death toll on our streets and around the world.

Here's a link: http://cyclinginfo.co.uk/blog/4756/cycling/stats-red-lights/index.html

*2. Cyclists don't want to be in your way.*
There's this weird idea that cyclists enjoy holding up drivers. A few seconds thought will reveal how silly this is - people do not like having fast, two-tonne objects behind them that are driven by impatient, fallible humans.

Beginner cyclists often try to keep as far to the left as possible but soon realise that this encourages close passes. More experienced cyclists will tend to move out further into the road in order to make themselves more visible and to make drivers change gear mentally and do a proper overtake rather than skimming past. It's a shame since it would be nice if one could just keep to the far left and rely on drivers to overtake safely. We are not doing it to annoy you.

Cycling two abreast is perfectly legal and usually makes safe overtakes easier. Unless a road is unusually wide, car drivers must move at least partially into the oncoming lane to safely overtake a cyclist. Riding two abreast means drivers have to move fully into the oncoming lane but reduces the amount of time they must spend in it as it makes the group of cyclists shorter.

As a side note: even if there is just one cyclist please move as far over to the right as possible when overtaking. We really appreciate it.

*3. Bad cycling infrastructure is worse than nothing.*
As a non-cyclist it might not be obvious to you that our cycling infrastructure is typically very poor. On-road cycle lanes are generally too narrow and often funnel cyclists directly past parked cars which leads to a risk of dooring. Shared paths adjacent to the road generally require the cyclist to give way at every side road. This not only makes them slow and inconvenient, but adds the risk of collision at every side road since drivers don't expect to see you there. Both on-road and off-road paths are often dangerously muddy or contain wet leaves or broken glass. Both types tend only to exist only on the straight sections where you don't need any help, but terminate just as you reach a dangerous junction.

Again, a few seconds of common-sense thought should be illuminating. People would rather not mix with cars, therefore if this cycling infrastructure was actually any good then people would use it. In my experience the vast majority of cycling infrastructure in the UK is both dangerous and inconvenient.

*4. Collective responsibility is nonsense.*
This isn't something you touched on specifically in your post but many people see cyclists as a homogeneous group and ascribe guilt from one individuals' wrongdoing to the whole. This is clearly wrong since I have no control over, or responsibility for, the actions of a complete stranger. This kind of thinking is the source of racism by the way, and is known as the out-group homogeneity effect. Start here if you are interested: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out-group_homogeneity .

*5. What does "mutual respect" really mean?*
Phrases like "mutual respect" and "shared responsibility" (between drivers and cyclists) seem reasonable at first glance but are really an attempt to shift responsibility from those who bring danger on to the vulnerable. The argument usually goes something like this: "Cyclists want respect but they jump red lights. If they cant obey the rules they shouldn't complain." Note that points 1 and 4 apply here. The fact that some people break rules doesn't give people the right to drive dangerously around me. Even if I specifically break the rules of the road (I don't) that doesn't make it ok for someone to run me over. "Respect" isn't really the issue - dangerous driving is.

I recently read a really good article which explained this more eloquently than I can but annoyingly I can't find it. Here is a slightly less good one instead: http://mccraw.co.uk/hoy-cyclists-collective-responsibility/

*Finally:*


stuarttunstall said:


> We have cycle paths which are just there for show, cyclist would sooner ride in the road next to the lane that is put there for there safety... in those cases cyclists should be prepared for the worst and accept it



I hope on reflection you realise what a seriously nasty thing this is to say. You seem to believe that because someone mildly inconveniences you by riding on the road instead of a substandard path, that person deserves to be killed or injured. This is why you have provoked angry reactions.

I've probably missed a bunch of things out but this has already taken me much longer to write than I intended.

Edit: *Oh, and one last thing*
If you are wondering why cyclists get so worked up by this kind of thing it's because we are subjected to aggressive and incompetent driving and abuse on the road and then are told that it's our own fault. It feels rather like the bully's old "why are you hitting yourself" routine. 

I've had people pull out in front of me, pull directly into the side of me, overtake me while I was turning right, lean on the horn, shout obsceneties, and throw things at me. In one case I even had someone stop their car so they could spit at me. Perhaps you can understand then that it boils my piss when otherwise-rational people blame cyclists for their troubles and make fun at our expense - such as when a policeman at a (motor)bike-safe course I attended made me the butt of his joke about cyclists running red lights (something which I have never done).


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## smutchin (13 May 2018)

POTD to @Randy Butternubs


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## chriscross1966 (14 May 2018)

roadrash said:


> I'm sure you may think that all cycle paths have been put there for cyclists safety, but some/lots are downright dangerous


I cycle a lot in Swindon and Oxford. Swindon has some brilliant cycling infrastructure, in a lot of cases you can get about town without touching a road except to cross it. Oxford has cycling infrastructure that in a lot of cases is a joke, a painted line 18 inches from the kerb delineating a space full of badly maintained road furniture, cracked parallel overbanding and wheel cracking pot holes is not a cycle lane.


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## steveindenmark (14 May 2018)

The thing that niggles me is when a driver beeps at me. Most the time I have no idea what they are beeping at. It would help if they stopped and discussed what they though I was doing wrong, so I could tell them why I am doing it.

Until that happens, I will pretend they are all my friends and give them a cheery wave.


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## Drago (14 May 2018)

stuarttunstall said:


> We have cycle paths which are just there for show, cyclist would sooner ride in the road next to the lane that is put there for there safety...



The lanes are not put there for safety. They're put there to get those inconvenient cyclists out the way of motorists. According to CyclingUK, the statistical risk of being killed or seriously injured is higher on cycling infrastructure than it is on the road, such is the dire level of design and maintenance typically found on UK cycling infrastructure.


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## Nigel-YZ1 (14 May 2018)

Cycling infrastructure?
Oh yes... Cyclists Dismount...Cyclists Dismount...Cyclists Dismount...Cyclists Dismount...Cyclists Dismount...Cyclists Dismount...Cyclists Dismount...Cyclists Dismount...Cyclists Dismount...

Can't be having those cyclists riding past the all important residential driveways!

Oops! lamp post, railings, glass, comms cabinet, post box...etc etc


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## derrick (14 May 2018)

We have cycle lanes in Enfield. Hardly anyone uses them. They are dangerous. I would always ride on the roads.


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## raleighnut (14 May 2018)

steveindenmark said:


> The thing that niggles me is when a driver beeps at me. Most the time I have no idea what they are beeping at. It would help if they stopped and discussed what they though I was doing wrong, so I could tell them why I am doing it.
> 
> Until that happens, I will pretend they are all my friends and give them a cheery wave.


I too wave at 'beepers', I may not use my entire hand to do so though.


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## steveindenmark (14 May 2018)

raleighnut said:


> I too wave at 'beepers', I may not use my entire hand to do so though.


The problem with that is it may be someone you know just beeping to say hello. On the other hand you could end up getting stabbed to death.


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## raleighnut (14 May 2018)

steveindenmark said:


> The problem with that is it may be someone you know just beeping to say hello. On the other hand you could end up getting stabbed to death.


I've had the former happen a couple of times, never the latter.........................................yet


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## Bazzer (14 May 2018)

stuarttunstall said:


> I am returning to cycling after 35 years, but I must say it works both ways and respect should be both ways.......
> 
> Round here we see a lot of cyclists, especially at weekends, and a large number, but not all ride like complete idiots who think they have more right to be there than a motorist... Some are very professional and I respect that as a driver doing about 30000 miles a year...
> 
> ...



Stuart, without wishing to carry on catching the same splinter, but when you get your bike, your perceptions, not just of cycle lanes, but of other aspects of motorist road behaviour should also change. ASLs have been mentioned, as have close passes and RLJ ing. But out of your metal cage, unless of course you live in an area where there is a brilliant cycling infrastructure and you intend to use only it, when you do cycle on roads, your awareness will be heightened of:
Your own vulnerability.
Your own speed and the inappropriate speeds of some drivers.
The number of drug drivers.
Road positioning of vehicles, particularly in slow moving traffic having just passed a cyclist.
The number of cars for which indicators seem to have been an unticked option box when the car was new.
Just how crap road surfaces are.


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## stuarttunstall (14 May 2018)

Randy Butternubs said:


> Being angry at someone who seems to have an open mind isn't helpful.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thank you for the explanation, I do really appreciate it and it does make better sense now a member has taken the time to explain this .... 

On reflection as you say I could have worded my comment a lot better so I do apologies for making people angry... I was just stating my observations, and as I say I may think different when I get out there, in fact I dare say I will...


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## Milkfloat (14 May 2018)

stuarttunstall said:


> Thank you for the explanation, I do really appreciate it and it does make better sense now a member has taken the time to explain this ....
> 
> On reflection as you say I could have worded my comment a lot better so I do apologies for making people angry... I was just stating my observations, and as I say I may think different when I get out there, in fact I dare say I will...



When you do get out there make sure you enjoy yourself - it is not a battlefield (all the time).


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## Roadhump (14 May 2018)

Good luck with your cycling @stuarttunstall, hope you enjoy it and stick with it.

If you do, as you get more experience, you will probably begin to understand and sympathise with some of the reactions to your post. 

It might be worthwhile looking around for tips on safe cycling to help you along. 

To me your comments seem typical of ingrained attitudes that we are conditioned into from an early age, and IMHO cause much of the unawareness among motorists, and ill feeling between motorists and cyclists; e.g. that cyclists should stick as close to the kerb as possible, and should always use cycle lanes where available, even though many are unsuitable, dangerous or both. If you begin to cycle on the roads with such a mindset, you may well find things more difficult than they need to be. Up until about 5 years ago, I thought similar to you, but since then I have learned a great deal from a number of sources, such as Cycling UK and British Cycling websites, much from Cyclechat, a few decent books and qualifying as a cycle instructor. I am now much more confident and, I believe, safer as a result.

Good luck.


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## Will Spin (14 May 2018)

simon.r said:


> I’d guesstimate I get *very nearly* hit by a car about once every 500 miles of road riding. Today was the latest occasion.
> 
> I spent the rest of my ride thinking about how close it was and what the implications would have been had I been injured. I’m still thinking about it, 8 hours later.
> 
> ...



It's good to be assertive when cycling, but not aggressive, this takes a bit a practice and one needs to build up confidence. If I was "*very nearly* hit" by a car every 500 miles this would be at least twice a month in my case, which would be unacceptable. Having said that I do have "incidents" from time to time and I find it helps to spend a little time analysing exactly what happened to see if there is anything I could have done to avoid it such as - position, visibility, speed, route and general interaction with other road users.


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## GuyBoden (14 May 2018)

Enjoy your cycling @stuarttunstall

I find that quieter country lanes are the most enjoyable for cycling. Keep away from busy roads when you can.


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## Alan O (14 May 2018)

Just a few observations about cycle lanes since I've been back cycling in this area for a couple of years. The upside is that in the years since I was last cycling here when previously there were almost none (and what few there were were mostly unmaintained and unrideable) the situation has improved enormously.

The best cycle lanes are the ones set apart from the road - notably mixed-use ones (with walkers), following old railway routes and cross-country tracks. Some that were purpose-built alongside A roads decades ago have now been rebuilt and are pretty good - and at roundabouts and junctions they merge with pedestrian/cyclists crossings (which are far enough apart to not impede progress too much).

Having said that, there are still some dreadful ones. One in particular is well placed alongside a single-carriageway A road with narrow lanes, but its surface is terrible. Lots of bumps, and parts are made from slabs, and it seems to have just the right resonant frequency to shake my bike and bones apart if I exceed around 5mph. I do actually use that one because the road is a bit dangerous.

Some have been built on wide pavements, and they're extremely variable. At best you potentially have to stop at every side road, where on the road you'd have priority. At worst they're obstructed by pavement furniture and have poor visibility. I reckon they can easily slow a cyclist to half their on-road speed, and in most cases the roads are just as safe to ride on anyway.

Then we have quite a few that are just painted along the sides of roads, and some of them look like they've been placed by a child who has been given a map and a paintbrush and told to have fun. Frequently they're too narrow and place the cyclist practically in the gutter, which is more dangerous than being properly placed in the road lane. They tend to be along the straight and safe parts of roads and disappear when you get to junctions where they'd be helpful. And they often just start and stop apparently at random, leaving you stranded and badly positioned.

I even saw one yesterday that was about 2-feet wide, with 2 lanes!

So I use cycle lanes when they're good and I think they're safer than the road, and I use the road when I think it's a better option.


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## Apollonius (14 May 2018)

Point of information: Cyclists DO have more right to be on the road than powered vehicles like cars. Cyclists, horse traffic and walkers have an absolute right to us the highway, whereas inferior modes of progression must be licensed.


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## stuarttunstall (14 May 2018)

Apollonius said:


> Point of information: Cyclists DO have more right to be on the road than powered vehicles like cars. Cyclists, horse traffic and walkers have an absolute right to us the highway, whereas inferior modes of progression must be licensed.



I was aware of the horses but not the other two


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## dantheman (14 May 2018)

It's important to note that there are bad cyclists and bad drivers, but from my experience 98% of road users are not out there to be pr#cks and will be mindful of other road users, I very often am given way to at roundabouts and crossings and such even when the law would give priority (nobody has "right of way") to the motorist who has waited for me - and it's very important to thank them.. 

There are moments where idiots are idiots and also where Road users make a mistake, cyclists do get seen by a lot of people as though they have no right to be on the road and I honestly believe that road riding is something every driver should have to do before being handed a license to drive a ton of metal at breakneck speed deliberately close to another person just because they feel they shouldn't be held up by 10 seconds... After cycling or motorcycling you realise there is real threat to being placed in gutters, riding into potholes and riding over painted Road markings (especially in the wet) that car drivers just do not realise about.. 

This whole subject always brings up bad feelings and comments for the opposite side (drivers vs cyclists) but what the cyclist has that the driver doesn't is the knowledge that no matter who is right or wrong when there is a collision between a car and a cyclist, the cyclist is the one who is in mortal danger... If a cyclist rides like a d*#k then 99% of the time they just put themselves in danger.. If a motorist acts like a d*#k then they put everybody around in danger, yet cyclists or pedestrians have but a tiny effect on them being in danger while they're acting that way.. 


Ride safe and enjoy.. I remember reading on here when I began cycling regularly along the lines of "it takes 1000 miles of cycling until you get really confident on the road, but after the next thousand that confidence will drop as you realise how over confident you were - then it will be more realistic confidence"


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## stuarttunstall (14 May 2018)

I know all about "idiot" motorists, see loads of them on my 40 mile each way trip to work 4 days a week, mobile phone, texting, driving in excess of the speed, drinking coffee, and one actually driving down the motorway at 70 MPH steering with his knees and holding a salad bowl in one hand just under his chin and a fork in the other ! 

One tonight, 5 times I watch him cut in front of other cars, including me to overtake ...


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## dantheman (14 May 2018)

I'm hoping you weren't cycling on the motorway  

I was nearly hit myself today as a woman in a BMW (just an observation, not putting women or all BMW drivers in a group) thought it not important to give way to the right at a roundabout (or even look to the right).. But I'm by no means perfect (though plenty of others would argue I'm pretty close) myself.. I did shout something, I'm sure it was very polite..


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## stuarttunstall (14 May 2018)

Not yet lol bike not arrived yet 

Funny enough I had a women in a BMW almost run into my car twice texting and looking down... On a dual carriageway drifted towards me looking down, I blasted my horn.. she looked up and carried on, then cut in front of me to turn off just in time, still texting looking down so blasted her again and used a few well chosen words... looked at me as if to say "what am I doing wrong"....

The one eating his dinner I was following him at 70 and he was drifting to the hard shoulder... then lane 2, I thought T*** on a mobile... how wrong was I... he was eating his dinner lol


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## DaveReading (14 May 2018)

stuarttunstall said:


> I will limit my participation to asking questions until such time I know enough and keep my opinions to myself



If you're saying you're only going to offer informed opinions in future, nobody can argue with that.

Though the usual suspects will try.


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## Drago (14 May 2018)

Car drivers are usually very courteous towards me for some reason.


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## gavgav (15 May 2018)

stuarttunstall said:


> The comment applies equally to motorists or anything really, if YOU choose not to use things that are put there for YOUR SAFETY then accept the consequences when things go wrong....
> 
> Comment not intended to cause arguments


I smell a rat!


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## stuarttunstall (15 May 2018)

gavgav said:


> I smell a rat!



Not really.... read my comment further down after someone took there valuable time to explain things to me ....


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## Drago (15 May 2018)

WHY all the SUDDEN use OF capital LETTERS? We can all read, thank you. I'm sure it's done with intent to emphasise certain points, but to those like me with dyslexia it makes things harder to read and understand, so THUS has the OPPOSITE effect TO that INTENDED.


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## stuarttunstall (15 May 2018)

Now changed....


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## Ajax Bay (15 May 2018)

Drago said:


> We can all read, thank you. I'm sure it's done with intent to emphasise certain points, but to those like me with dyslexia it makes things harder to read and understand, so THUS has the OPPOSITE effect TO that INTENDED.


Grumpy @Drago  Finish your breakfast and get out for a ride in the sunshine.


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## Ajax Bay (15 May 2018)

Nigel-YZ1 said:


> I'll just leave this here: http://wcc.crankfoot.xyz/facility-of-the-month/May2018.htm
> I love Facility of the Month.


Nigel - thank you for sharing. I'm sure some who are into this stuff have seen this for years, but for those who haven't, I second your appreciation of and recommendation to dip into 'Facility of the Month'
Also a simple piece on
The Effect of Cycle Lanes on Cyclists' Road Space
_ A report showing how a cycle lanes reduce the amount of road-space available to cyclists_


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## gavgav (15 May 2018)

stuarttunstall said:


> Not really.... read my comment further down after someone took there valuable time to explain things to me ....


Fair enough. Just don’t think coming onto a cycling site and telling those who don’t use cycle paths that they are asking for trouble is the best way of coming across


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## raleighnut (15 May 2018)

gavgav said:


> Fair enough. Just don’t think coming onto a cycling site and telling those who don’t use cycle paths that they are asking for trouble is the best way of coming across


He'll be banging on about Helmets next.


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## Alan O (15 May 2018)

I get frustrated by drivers who criticize cyclists who don't use cycle lanes, but I do think it's mostly due to genuine lack of understanding rather than anything malicious. If you don't read any of the cycling press or discussions on cycling forums (and don't cycle yourself), I reckon you could be forgiven for assuming that cycle lanes are well planned and are safe and good to use.

As an example, I have a friend who is an ex driving instructor and has been driving for a living for most of his life - I'd say he's the safest and most clued-up driver I know. But he's asked me, with genuine puzzlement, why so many cyclists don't use the cycle lanes that have been put there for their safety and convenience.

I've explained the reasons I know of, and he's since looked more closely at cycle lane implementation - and he's come to agree how bad and unsafe a lot of them are, and understands why so many don't use them.

Education is the answer, not confrontation - but how to educate those who design and build cycling infrastructure is a task that is beyond me.


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## Profpointy (15 May 2018)

raleighnut said:


> He'll be banging on about Helmets next.



And they don't pay road tax, wobblin' abaht in the middle of the road holding up traffic whilst cycling too fast on the pavement


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## Lonestar (15 May 2018)

gavgav said:


> Fair enough. Just don’t think coming onto a cycling site and telling those who don’t use cycle paths that they are asking for trouble is the best way of coming across



Definitely...Wasn't sure whether this was a WUM...but with the trouble I've had at work recently (and in the past) due to the same sort of thing and the poor reputation cyclists seem to have this was never going to go down well with me.


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## DCBassman (15 May 2018)

As he's already put his hand up and apologised, time to ease off, methinks.


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## bigjim (15 May 2018)

Cycle lanes are not there for your safety. They are there to spend money that has been bid for and to fulfil gov targets on how many cycle lanes have been created, That is why you often come across ridiculous cycle lanes that only run for about 20 yards then spit you back out into the traffic. These all add up to the miles of cycle lanes that the authority can claim as having created so justifying the money requested from central government. Yes, I've worked for a local authority


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## stuarttunstall (15 May 2018)

You have no need to worry I have requested Shaun delete my account....

Thank you to all those that have answered my questions.. they have been vet helpful and I appreciate it..

Ps at 53 I am an not, and never have been a wind up merchant... thanks!

Stuart has now logged out....


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## Tail End Charlie (15 May 2018)

And so, another person who was interested enough to think about taking up cycling and joined a forum has been put off. So he may have used some poorly phrased terms, so what, he admitted his errors and seemed genuine enough. Some posters on this thread should be ashamed.


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## User10119 (15 May 2018)

Alan O said:


> Education is the answer, not confrontation



I occasionally get a lift to work at one site from a colleague - and previously used to get a lift to the same place from a different colleague who has now moved on to a new job elsewhere. Both know that I cycle, and that I sometimes cycle to that site although the route is pretty meh, with rubbishy sightlines and narrow lanes and patches of truly shocking surface and far too much speeding traffic, including quite a lot of HGVs. With both I had conversations at various pointsabout why cyclists don't and shouldn't ride in the gutter* and why we will sometimes choose to take a strong primary** and so on.

Both commented a few weeks afterwards that they'd been looking a bit differently at the cyclists they'd encountered, and the roads they were cycling on, and now they understood. Last week I had a conversation with the very kind colleague who currently gives me an occasional lift about riding two abreast and she had a bit of a light bulb when I explained the 'half the length of overtake, half the time to complete the manoeuvre" thing...


*"Look at that massive pothole there, the one that you can feel when you hit it in the car - if I hit that on my bike it'd probably have me off and sprawled in the road and that would really delay your journey!"
**"See this series of blind corners? If someone overtook a bike here and there was an oncoming vehicle is there *any* way at all to avoid an accident? See, that's why I go right out because then nobody can try to 'squeeze' past."


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## Soltydog (15 May 2018)

simon.r said:


> I’d guesstimate I get *very nearly* hit by a car about once every 500 miles of road riding. Today was the latest occasion.
> 
> I spent the rest of my ride thinking about how close it was and what the implications would have been had I been injured. I’m still thinking about it, 8 hours later.
> 
> ...



I don't get 'near misses' that often, maybe 1 every 2-3k miles? but I still get pee'd off by car drivers who sit in ASL's or drive in cycle lanes & given the chance I'll get in front of them & make them move over, just to prove a point 



dantheman said:


> It's important to note that there are bad cyclists and bad drivers, but from my experience 98% of road users are not out there to be pr#cks and will be mindful of other road users,



I reckon there's a small % of the population that don't give a $h1t about anyone but themselves, sometimes they are in a car, sometimes on foot & sometimes on a bike. Had 1 this morning on my commute, been sat at a red light for about 30 seconds when another 'cyclist' passed me crossed to other carriage way & jumped onto the footpath  just as the lights on the road to the left were changing to green! (Ferking idiot!!!)


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## DCBassman (15 May 2018)

stuarttunstall said:


> You have no need to worry I have requested Shaun delete my account....
> 
> Thank you to all those that have answered my questions.. they have been vet helpful and I appreciate it..
> 
> ...



Well, I for one, Stuart, ask that you reconsider.


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## pjd57 (15 May 2018)

If motorists expect cyclists to always be in cycle lanes, even if the cycle lane doesn't go to your destination, I think it's only fair to ask motorists to always use the motorway.


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## Drago (15 May 2018)

Or even to stay off the path.


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## dantheman (15 May 2018)

Drago said:


> Or even to stay off the path.


Lol. I one time as I reached work, looked over my shoulder and then signalled right, moved into center of road and the guy behind decided to overtake at this point - he actually went not only into the lane oncoming, but actually mounted the kerb past it...


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## Lonestar (16 May 2018)

Tail End Charlie said:


> And so, another person who was interested enough to think about taking up cycling and joined a forum has been put off. So he may have used some poorly phrased terms, so what, he admitted his errors and seemed genuine enough. Some posters on this thread should be ashamed.



No not ashamed at all.I hate bullies on the road (and at work) and I've encountered quite a few of the recently...I doubt they are ashamesd at their 5h1t dangerous driving.His first comment just about sums up the general attitude out there and in my messroom at work.Why should I get blamed for other peoples cycling habits and not using crap cycle lanes?


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## Heltor Chasca (16 May 2018)

We don’t really know what happened here. I personally think Stuart was wearing his heavy typing hands on the day he started this thread. He probably didn’t have much experience of cycling forums and had no idea of the emotive and very real feelings regular cyclists have about our car centric culture and hideous infrastructure. He wouldn’t have realised the backlash his comments would have.

But he held his hands up and was thoughtful in his apology. He wanted to learn and move on. Although the initial post alluded to bullish behaviour, I don’t think Stuart is a bully. By nature, bullies do not apologise. But as it is with the nature of the internet, people only read his initial posts and piled on with the onslaught.

We probably won’t really ever get to know what experience, humour and ideas Stuart could have brought to the forum. I am also sad he went in this manner.

EDIT : Clarification of the subject forumite.


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## Lozz360 (16 May 2018)

Heltor Chasca said:


> We don’t really know what happened here. I personally think the OP was wearing his heavy typing hands on the day he started this thread. He probably didn’t have much experience of cycling forums and had no idea of the emotive and very real feelings regular cyclists have about our car centric culture and hideous infrastructure. He wouldn’t have realised the backlash his comments would have.
> 
> But he held his hands up and was thoughtful in his apology. He wanted to learn and move on. Although the initial post alluded to bullish behaviour, I don’t think the OP is a bully. By nature, bullies do not apologise. But as it is with the nature of the internet, people only read his initial posts and piled on with the onslaught.
> 
> We probably won’t really ever get to know what experience, humour and ideas the OP could have brought to the forum. I am also sad he went in this manner.


Just for a bit of pedantic clarity. I assume you are referring to Stuart not the OP?


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## Heltor Chasca (16 May 2018)

Lozz360 said:


> Just for a bit of pedantic clarity. I assume you are referring to Stuart not the OP?



Yes. Sorry. My bad. I’ll go in and fix it. Thanks.


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## Drago (16 May 2018)

He'll be back. He struck me as a decent enough sort, open to new - to him - ideas. Once he's ridden his bike a few times and he's experienced the reality he will be hooked, and also he will know first hand the problems we face. He will then want to talk about this. Ergo, he will return here to do so.


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## raleighnut (16 May 2018)

Drago said:


> He'll be back. He struck me as a decent enough sort, open to new - to him - ideas. Once he's ridden his bike a few times and he's experienced the reality he will be hooked, and also he will know first hand the problems we face. He will then want to talk about this. Ergo, he will return here to do so.


Maybe.


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## User10119 (16 May 2018)

raleighnut said:


> Maybe.


Yeah, I dunno. Is CycleChat such an important place that someone who's actually gone to the bother of deleting their account would then go to the bother of re-registering? I guess time will tell.


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## Drago (16 May 2018)

Yes. I mean, whats the alternative? Go to YACF or the CyclingUK forum and that rabidly anti CyclingUK bloke - wotsisname, Robin Hood? I forget - will jump down his throat. Brokeradar is crap. He'll be back.


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## ianrauk (16 May 2018)

[QUOTE 5245418, member: 10119"]Yeah, I dunno. Is CycleChat such an important place that someone who's actually gone to the bother of deleting their account would then go to the bother of re-registering? I guess time will tell.[/QUOTE]


You would be surprised at how many do come back. But it is mainly those that have been registered for a while rather then new registrations.


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## Lonestar (16 May 2018)

I'm honestly sorry he left.I didn't want that.

He's still welcome here as far as I (and many others) are concerned.


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## boydj (16 May 2018)

Lonestar said:


> I'm honestly sorry he left.I didn't want that.
> 
> He's still welcome here as far as I (and many others) are concerned.



Me too. I'd like him to come back and share his experiences once he's had a few weeks cycling on his new bike to tell us about.


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## User10119 (17 May 2018)

Drago said:


> Yes. I mean, whats the alternative? Go to YACF or the CyclingUK forum and that rabidly anti CyclingUK bloke - wotsisname, Robin Hood? I forget - will jump down his throat. Brokeradar is crap. He'll be back.


Or he might just ride his bike a bit and think that cyclists on the internet are a chippy bunch that he's not that fussed about and can't be bothered with.

Which seems a shame, because I, for one, have made some excellent friends over the years among the cyclists of the internet. A few of them here, quite a lot elsewhere too.


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## Lonestar (17 May 2018)

User said:


> And people suggest that "News and Current Affairs" is the 'nasty' part of the forum...



He may find out a few things on the road as well.


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## Pale Rider (17 May 2018)

I'm struggling to move in the latter part of this thread for all the pots and kettles.


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## roadrash (17 May 2018)

stuarttunstall said: ↑
in those cases cyclists should be prepared for the worst and accept it

I said
I really do hope you realise how wrong that statement is when you start to ride next week

nothing malicious intended,


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## Phil Fouracre (17 May 2018)

I'm no expert:-) but, seemed like a reasonable thread to me, someone says something, and others reply, what's new? We are all 'consenting adults'. Perhaps it's old age, but, I'm constantly amazed that 'offence' can be taken at every opportunity, see Steve Hughes, Aussie comedian, for the ultimate response:-)


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## Phil Fouracre (17 May 2018)

Yup! I agree entirely - he comes out with a crap comment like that, he's got to expect a response! Just a bit pathetic to then 'chuck his toys out of the pram' when people come back at him! 
Had something similar myself today, twunt in a white bmw convertible (perfect combination) close passed me blasting his horn, lovely! Afraid I lost it, it spoilt a beautiful day, single finger salute, and an embarrassing string of very loud expletives followed. Would you believe it, he stopped and harangued me for swearing in front of his children! Had a short discussion about how he had perhaps deserved it, we agreed to differ!!!!


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## Pat "5mph" (17 May 2018)

stuarttunstall is no longer an active member of CC and is therefore unable to reply.

Whilst positive and fun threads reflecting on previous members are allowed, threads questioning and/or assassinating the character of ex-members don't reflect well on our community, and on that basis this thread is now closed.


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