# Selling a house that's in need of modernisation



## fossyant (4 Nov 2019)

MIL is in a nursing care home. We're currently organising the deferred charge on the house, but think we might hit a small snag/additional expense as it's not registered with the land registry - bought before the time it should be registered. 4 bed detatched, brick conservatory, garage and reasonable sized gardens.

The house was built in 1969. The Kitchen and bathroom are old and knackered and needs completely re-doing. Downstairs loo has a specialist toilet (will need swapping back to the standard one). Wiring, whilst it has a newish consumer unit, might need completely re-wiring. Carpets and decor is old fashioned, and has polystyrene tiles in a couple of upstairs rooms. We will have to strip out the disability 'aids' and stair lift and front ramp etc.

We are all 'time crunched' - two sisters self employed & my wife full time. Would you aim to sell as it is (nothing wrong and livable) or attend to stuff like a re-wire (it's a spaghetti junction TBF). We'd leave the kitchen and bathroom as people have their own taste.

The house needs 'emptying' as well, and I suspect this will take a few months. Depends upon if a stack of work will recover cost. MIL has limited savings though to complete this work (could do a £5k re-wire) , and none of the family can invest 000's into it.

Tempted to clear and clean it and sold as seen.


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## Milkfloat (4 Nov 2019)

My personal view is to do exactly as you say 'to clear and clean it and sold as seen. ' Anyone that buys the house will want to put their own touch on it and unless you can do the work at a cut price you are unlikely to see any of it back. You also need to think about tax implications such as Stamp Duty if you do increase the value.


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## vickster (4 Nov 2019)

As above. Don’t spend anything beyond the bare minimum


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## slowmotion (4 Nov 2019)

fossyant said:


> MIL is in a nursing care home. We're currently organising the deferred charge on the house, but think we might hit a small snag/additional expense as it's not registered with the land registry - bought before the time it should be registered. 4 bed detatched, brick conservatory, garage and reasonable sized gardens.
> 
> The house was built in 1969. The Kitchen and bathroom are old and knackered and needs completely re-doing. Downstairs loo has a specialist toilet (will need swapping back to the standard one). Wiring, whilst it has a newish consumer unit, might need completely re-wiring. Carpets and decor is old fashioned, and has polystyrene tiles in a couple of upstairs rooms. We will have to strip out the disability 'aids' and stair lift, front tramp etc.
> 
> ...


I think that most people who buy a house want to knock it about and personalise it. Personally, I don't think that spending money on it to tart it up makes financial sense.

Edit: Sorry, I missed the previous posts that say the same.


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## fossyant (4 Nov 2019)

£5k at a re-wire is silly money considering we'd not benefit, might get cost back, but sockets etc might not suit the new owner (plus pointless if kitchen needs changing).


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## HarryTheDog (4 Nov 2019)

Another vote for leave it as it is, someone will buy it. I bought a house a year ago and it was in a real state ( electrical cables hanging out of the walls and holes in the kitchen ceiling) but was over 10K below market price. I have only just started getting around to getting all the work done. Brand new kitchen, complete kitchen re-plaster all the electrics re-done and utility room plastered and new toilet/washbasin. Roughly 15k, but its will be to my taste. I am doing NONE of the work ie using a builder. So if the previous owner had done similar he would not have got his money back.


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## Chris S (4 Nov 2019)

All houses are 'sold as seen'.


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## sleuthey (4 Nov 2019)

Unless the buyer commissions a bespoke electrical survey, I think it is extremely unlikely that any surveyor will go testing the circuits when doing one if the surveys commonly undertaken. They will just report on the type of consumer unit and no. Of sockets in each room etc.


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## Phaeton (4 Nov 2019)

If as you say it was built in 1969 it will not have anywhere near the number of sockets required for today's world, so re-wiring unless it's dangerous is just a waste of money. Let somebody look at the bare bones & buy it as is, if they want to spend the money let them. It's also like the boiler unless it's brand spanking new the surveyor will also probably mark it down.


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## Dave7 (4 Nov 2019)

Chris S said:


> All houses are 'sold as seen'.


I thought that if you sold a house, KNOWING there was a hidden problem eg drains but did not disclose that problem, then the buyer could claim against you.


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## fossyant (4 Nov 2019)

Phaeton said:


> If as you say it was built in 1969 it will not have anywhere near the number of sockets required for today's world, so re-wiring unless it's dangerous is just a waste of money. Let somebody look at the bare bones & buy it as is, if they want to spend the money let them. It's also like the boiler unless it's brand spanking new the surveyor will also probably mark it down.



Funny thing is, my missus is round the house now waiting for the BG engineer for the boiler. It's packed up after a power trip and won't re-start. Another reason to sell, the house has been empty 10 months.


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## Rickshaw Phil (4 Nov 2019)

Chris S said:


> All houses are 'sold as seen'.


That's what I thought too. Unfortunately there is a little known rule that means that the new owner can come back anything up to 6 years after the sale if anything has been "misrepresented".


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## Beebo (4 Nov 2019)

A developer will snap it up. 
No point wasting time or money on it.


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## Lozz360 (4 Nov 2019)

Chris S said:


> All houses are 'sold as seen'.


Or subject to survey.

I get the impression that there are very few properties now that are sold "in need of modernisation". Thanks to TV programmes such as Homes Under the Hammer everyone is an amateur property developer and houses that someone can add value to by installing a cheap kitchen and bathroom and decorate throughout, then sell on for a profit seem to be in short supply. At least they are where I come from. If you haven't got the time, money or inclination to do this, then as others have said, sell it as it is.


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## vickster (4 Nov 2019)

Beebo said:


> A developer will snap it up.
> No point wasting time or money on it.


Depending on where it is of course


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## Archie_tect (4 Nov 2019)

Unless you can save labour costs by doing it yourself best just sell as seen.

Ring British Heart Foundation. They do a House Clearance service which cost me £300 for dad's house to take everything in a lorry and they sort and sell what they can. Take care to remove anything really valuable first to sell separately. BHF will even take carpets and fixtures if you ask them. £300 compared to hiring a skip which would cost you around £250 for a week and you'd have to empty the house yourself which would take at least a couple of days.


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## Levo-Lon (4 Nov 2019)

Sell as is, its a classic property developer house. 
You’ll get a decent price as these are very sought after.

Why work and spend on it.
Get what you can and use the saved time to do your own stuff.


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## tom73 (4 Nov 2019)

fossyant said:


> clear and clean it and sold as seen.


Totally I've done the same twice less hassle all round. As for total clear out not everyone wants big items I ended up clearing what I could and the left rest.


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## fossyant (4 Nov 2019)

There isn't anything structurally wrong, or any damp, it's just outdated. Getting nephew round ASAP to take the fridge and some of his furniture that's stored in the garage now he's sorted his flat. Will see if any of the nieces and nephews need garden tools etc.

The cash is all going to go towards MIL's nursing fees - over a grand a week - blooming shame when you've worked all your life (but that's another thread).

Righty, now to get the family together for a clear out. I've been drafted in to fix a cupboard and drawers one night this week.


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## tom73 (4 Nov 2019)

Good idea get them round and more hand and all that. 
As for the rest let them take what they want and do what you can with the what's left. 
In the end it's just stuff that rightly or wrongly won't change anything. 
Another idea for furniture wise is see if you have a local community furniture resell project.


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## ColinJ (4 Nov 2019)

My house needed probably £20k+ spending on it to bring it up to a decent modern standard. I couldn't afford that so I sold it at a realistic price, which was about £25k less than similar properties that had already had the work done. It saved me a lot of stress and a struggle to raise the money to modernise it.


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## Phaeton (4 Nov 2019)

ColinJ said:


> My house needed probably £20k+ spending on it to bring it up to a decent modern standard. I couldn't afford that so I sold it at a realistic price, which was about £25k less than similar properties that had already had the work done. It saved me a lot of stress and a struggle to raise the money to modernise it.


Sound advice


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## Cuchilo (4 Nov 2019)

Dont bother doing anything . You will be asked for all kind of certificates for any electric or plumbing work you carry out .
Take anything that is dear to you and your family and let the buyer deal with the rest .


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## alicat (4 Nov 2019)

Dave7 said:


> I thought that if you sold a house, KNOWING there was a hidden problem eg drains but did not disclose that problem, then the buyer could claim against you.



No, it's up to the buyer to get a survey.



Rickshaw Phil said:


> That's what I thought too. Unfortunately there is a little known rule that means that the new owner can come back anything up to 6 years after the sale if anything has been "misrepresented".




Your solicitor is paid to make sure that nothing is misrepresented.


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## Rickshaw Phil (4 Nov 2019)

alicat said:


> ......
> 
> Your solicitor is paid to make sure that nothing is misrepresented.


I can't give details because the case is ongoing but sometimes it doesn't work out as simple as that.


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## Bazzer (4 Nov 2019)

My sister and I sold our Mum's house earlier this year. The options we had:
1. Sold as seen.
2. Modernise
3. Do sufficient work to let it.
We went for 1. 
The problem with 2 was incurring costs a potential buyer might not appreciate. The kitchen was the obvious thing. For example my sister's and her husband taste for kitchen fittings is very different to that of my wife and I.
The problem with 3 was the amount of work would pretty much bring it into 2's range and would be expensive. (Edwardian 4 bed detached house).
In the event, the buyer could see the development potential, (part of which we built into the sale price).

Clearance was a ball ache. Don't underestimate how long it will take and how much stuff there might be. For example the garage in my Mum's house was my responsibility. Two transit vans later and we still had stuff for a man and van.

Look carefully for personal stuff you or other family members might want to keep. 

Organisations BHF will help with the clearance, but IME, they only take what they want, i.e think they can sell. Anything with fabric on it, such as chairs, BHF will not touch unless you can provide evidence of fire certificates. 

Gumtree and Freecycle were very useful, for stuff BHF wouldn't touch. - For example our Mum had a walnut dining suite BHF wouldn't take (fabric on the chairs), which because it was dark wood auction houses wouldn't touch, (not fashionable) and would have been criminal to skip. For their cost of a hired van, a family got some lovely furniture.


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## Salad Dodger (4 Nov 2019)

We were in the same situation as ColinJ when we sold our last house. We sold for probably 20k under what anyone else in the road would have asked, knowing that it needed that sort of sum spent to refurbish it. And if we had spent the money ourselves, our house would have commanded a higher price, but then buyers might well have been more particular, and may not have liked our choice of new kitchen or bathroom, if it wasn't to their taste. Better to let it be the new owners problem.....


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## ColinJ (4 Nov 2019)

Bazzer said:


> My sister and I sold our Mum's house earlier this year. The options we had:
> 1. Sold as seen.
> 2. Modernise
> 3. *Do sufficient work to let it.*
> ...


My sisters and I went for option 3 with our late mum's house... _Nightmare!_

We had a dispute with the tenants who ended up refusing to pay the rent. It took us months to get them out, during which time we found out they were spending the rent money doing up another property to move into! When they _finally _moved out (having completed the repairs on _their _property with _our _rent money!) they left a load of stuff behind which my sister tried to arrange for them to pick up. We changed the locks after they moved out. Rather than answer text messages, emails or phone calls, they simply went round the back and smashed a window to get in! The police refused to get involved, saying it was a civil dispute...


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## ColinJ (4 Nov 2019)

Salad Dodger said:


> We were in the same situation as ColinJ when we sold our last house. We sold for probably 20k under what anyone else in the road would have asked, knowing that it needed that sort of sum spent to refurbish it. And if we had spent the money ourselves, our house would have commanded a higher price, but then buyers might well have been more particular, and *may not have liked our choice of new kitchen or bathroom, if it wasn't to their taste.* Better to let it be the new owners problem.....


The one part of my house that _had _been modernised was the kitchen. I saw all of the newish units in a skip outside the property a couple of weeks after completion!


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## tom73 (4 Nov 2019)

Same thing with my mums house had a brand new one fitted which turned out to be a few weeks before she died. 
The whole lot get ripped out once sold.


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## steveindenmark (5 Nov 2019)

I used to buy 'do up' houses and sell them. My only advice is be realistic about the price. I dont mean what the estate agent thinks is realistic. They are on commission and will want to sell it for the most money and dont care how long it takes. Sell it cheap and get it off your hands.

As for clearing the house. Won't charity shops do that?


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## fossyant (5 Nov 2019)

I think there is far too much sentimental 'crap' in the house to get someone in - it needs a family member to empty it - we've specifically said we don't want anything as we haven't got room, other than a small dryer (ours is rusting to bits it's that old) and I'll have my "nanny cam" back, and make it a "bike cam" for my garage !! 

Think we have family agreement to do no renovations, and just clear it. MIL accepting the house needs to go - it's effectively a liability standing unoccupied.


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## Profpointy (5 Nov 2019)

steveindenmark said:


> <snip>
> . My only advice is be realistic about the price. I dont mean what the estate agent thinks is realistic. They are on commission and will want to sell it for the most money and dont care how long it takes.
> 
> <snip>



I don't think the above is right, or at least only partly right. Estate agents are essentially selling twice: they are selling their services to you, and then they are selling your house to the buyer. They need to puff up the claimed price to entice the seller, then try and squeeze the price down to get the sale with as little work as possible. The extra commission for getting an extra £10k would only be a couple of hundred quid so they are far better off selling quickly for a a much lower price and getting their £5k in the bag.


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## wormo (5 Nov 2019)

As mentioned earlier empty and sell. I wouldn't bother incurring unecessary costs. I'm sure a property developer would snap it up.


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## Archie_tect (5 Nov 2019)

Fossyant,

If you pay The British Heart Foundation £300 for their House Clearance Service [ring 0808 250 0040] they will clear the house completely and then sell what they can. They then let you know how much they've raised from the sale. So they got £300 to clear + raised another £680... it's a cause I'm pleased to support.

Cheers.


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## ColinJ (5 Nov 2019)

Archie_tect said:


> If you pay The British Heart Foundation £300 for their House Clearance Service [ring 0808 250 0040] they will clear the house completely and then sell what they can. They then let you know how much they've raised from the sale. So they got £300 to clear + raised another £680... it's a cause I'm pleased to support.


Now there's a coincidence... I am sitting on a sofa that I bought from the BHF furniture store in Halifax and a mate has just texted me to ask if I want my old 2-seater sofa back. (I gave it to him when I bought this one.) I told him to drop it off at the BHF store if he doesn't want it any more.


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## fossyant (11 Nov 2019)

Bit of progress. Cleared a car's load of crap out of the house, had it valued (for the council's deferred payment attachment) and got rid of the medical bed.

Mrs F has got confirmation of the difference between her mum being in the nursing home via council funding (i.e. keeping the house with a deferred payment) or funding directly (i.e. selling the house).

Wait for it:-

If we enter into a 'private' agreement should we sell the house, this would cost us an additional £1,500 per month, so £18k per year difference.

So we are not selling the house, and will chip away at clearing it out.


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## Archie_tect (11 Nov 2019)

@fossyant 

You can get the rates on an empty house stopped for 6 months which is a big help.

Is there any benefit in looking at alternative ideas- eg: take out an interest only loan to release equity from the house to pay nursing home fees so you keep the house as is- you then get tax relief on the interest on the loan, but keep the asset?


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## nickyboy (11 Nov 2019)

Archie_tect said:


> @fossyant
> 
> You can get the rates on an empty house stopped for 6 months which is a big help.
> 
> Is there any benefit in looking at alternative ideas- eg: take out an interest only loan to release equity from the house to pay nursing home fees so you keep the house as is- you then get tax relief on the interest on the loan, but keep the asset?


Equity release loans are priced at a significant premium to the normal mortgage market as the lender has no idea when they will get their money back. Maybe tomorrow, maybe in 20 years. As the amount drawn down compounds over time it can become a real problem. You should get professional advice on this matter

FWIW, we have just sold my Mum's house after she passed away earlier this year. The house was in reasonable condition but had an accumulation of 53 years of stuff. This is what we did:
1) Take out anything valuable asap as the house would be unoccupied (you have to let the house and contents insurer know it's unoccupied anyway. Failure to do so could invalidate the policy)
2) Declutter the surfaces but leave all the furniture in place to give it a lived in feel for sale
3) When close to completion, hired a skip and arrange for British Heart Foundation to take a number of items (in hindsight we should have paid them to do the full house clearance)
4) Took out the remaining things of use or of sentimental value, skipped the rest, leaving an empty house for the new owners

We spent nothing on the house itself. I think unless you're looking to hold onto it for rent then any money spent would be lost in the sale process.


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## Levo-Lon (11 Nov 2019)

Be very weary of getting them sharks involved @fossyant compound interest can make 20k a100k in a few yrs. 

Lots of people suddenly finding the house they used is now a millstone


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## Bazzer (11 Nov 2019)

Archie_tect said:


> @fossyant
> 
> You can get the rates on an empty house stopped for 6 months which is a big help.
> 
> Is there any benefit in looking at alternative ideas- eg: take out an interest only loan to release equity from the house to pay nursing home fees so you keep the house as is- *you then get tax relief on the interest on the loan,* but keep the asset?



Are you sure? 
This is not a loan for business purposes. It is not the asset upon which the loan is raised which is relevant but the purpose to which the loan is used.


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## fossyant (11 Nov 2019)

We are arranging a deferred charge on the house via the council (so no finance companies involved) - the fees are pretty minimal and it should fund her Nursing home place for about 4-5 years (assuming she lasts that long) by then she'll have nothing and it will be the state that pays. Not renting it out as the house needs updating, and we don't have the time.


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## PaulSB (12 Nov 2019)

As an aside are people aware one can put property in to trust? The trust becomes the legal owner and the occupants tenants for life. There are advantages, mainly no property owned for the LA to chase, if one has to go in to care.

I'm still talking to the solicitor about what I see as potential pitfalls but overall this seems sensible longer term planning.


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## Beebo (12 Nov 2019)

PaulSB said:


> As an aside are people aware one can put property in to trust? The trust becomes the legal owner and the occupants tenants for life. There are advantages, mainly no property owned for the LA to chase, if one has to go in to care.
> 
> I'm still talking to the solicitor about what I see as potential pitfalls but overall this seems sensible longer term planning.


I think that loop hole was closed a few years ago. The LA can recover costs if the significant reason for entering the Trust was to avoid paying care fees.


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## PaulSB (12 Nov 2019)

Beebo said:


> I think that loop hole was closed a few years ago. The LA can recover costs if the significant reason for entering the Trust was to avoid paying care fees.



This is true. However we have no significant reason to avoid fees. Our solicitor has made it clear she will not act for us if that's the intention.


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## fossyant (12 Nov 2019)

PaulSB said:


> As an aside are people aware one can put property in to trust? The trust becomes the legal owner and the occupants tenants for life. There are advantages, mainly no property owned for the LA to chase, if one has to go in to care.
> 
> I'm still talking to the solicitor about what I see as potential pitfalls but overall this seems sensible longer term planning.



We were way too late for any of that when FIL died quite quickly, and MIL already had 4 x carers a day, plus FIL's care. We missed the boat, but I still think the Council can get the funds - I think we discussed 'trusts' some years ago as FIL was clued up on all this but they both refused.

We've done well to keep her in her home for the last 5 years - no chance now as she hasn't 'stood up' for nearly a year (gave up after illness), so no chance of improvement now, plus her heart/lungs struggle with any movement.


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## fossyant (16 Dec 2019)

Selling is on hold. If we keep the house and have a deferred charge applied, then it works out at £50k a year via the council. If we sell, and fund the place directly, then the cost rockets up to £68k as the fee isn't capped like it is through the council. Blimey. 

SIL has removed all the polystyrene ceiling tiles, but has left a right mess. Ceiling will need sanding and skimming. Looks worse that leaving it.


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