# TFL Die In



## Rouge79 (27 Nov 2013)

So are any of the CC london contingent attending the #tfldiein this Friday evening?

I'm hoping to make it. Puffing my way up from NW9 along the A5 to get to it


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## deptfordmarmoset (27 Nov 2013)

I plan to be there, not that I really fancy lying around on cold road surfaces for the sake of a photo. It's a shame it's a Friday night. It would be a good occasion to repair to a bike friendly pub afterwards but if the pubs there have that Friday-after-work feel I might give that a miss.


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## Black Country Ste (27 Nov 2013)

I'm coming down on the train to Marylebone and joining the feeder ride at Victoria, if I can find the station.


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## wiggydiggy (27 Nov 2013)

User14044mountain said:


> I won't be there. I'm not sure that this will help, sadly.



I agree.

My local club is organising a ride to show solidarity, in the discussion leading up to deciding to do that we talked about standing/laying down and we decided a less antagonistic approach was needed. We need to show those that don't cycle we're not different, we're just mothers, fathers, brothers and sisters who use a bike to get to our destinations wherever that may be.

Also, 2 of their aims are these and I don't agree.


A ban on vehicles whose drivers cannot see adjacent road-users; and,
A full London-wide segregated network to be built urgently.

1) This has been done to death, going up the inside, but essentially I dont think blaming the driver all the time for not seeing/being unable to see someone on the inside is the way forward.
2) I don't think segregation is the answer, or even possible. Improve the junctions first, improve the roads first, improve driving standards and attitudes first. As more cyclists appear and we need more space that is when parts of the existing road network will become ours.


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## Spinney (27 Nov 2013)

wiggydiggy said:


> 2) I don't think segregation is the answer, or even possible. Improve the junctions first, improve the roads first,* improve driving standards and attitudes first*. As more cyclists appear and we need more space that is when parts of the existing road network will become ours.



If this was done, much of the rest would not be as necessary. All it needs is better policing, and police and magistrates to throw the book at drivers on phones, and inconsiderate driving in general. People would eventually get the point.


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## TwickenhamCyclist (27 Nov 2013)

User14044mountain said:


> I won't be there. I'm not sure that this will help, sadly.


Let's hope you're wrong!
There is evidence to suggest it does work...


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## SomethingLikeThat (27 Nov 2013)

Blocking things I think makes more of a statement than just riding around for a few minutes and then leaving as if nothing happened.


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## jarlrmai (27 Nov 2013)

I'll be having my own "die in" on the couch in my lounge.


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## Frood42 (27 Nov 2013)

Why is this so early? Starting at 17:00?
Its about 12 miles away from where I work, so I would have to leave about 16:00, not going to happen...

Well, good luck to those who attend, I shall have to make a contribution to this other ways (already signed the 38degrees and LCC petitions).
.


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## theclaud (27 Nov 2013)

Frood42 said:


> Why is this so early? Starting at 17:00?
> Its about 12 miles away from where I work, so I would have to leave about 16:00, not going to happen...
> 
> Well, good luck to those who attend, I shall have to make a contribution to this other ways (already signed the 38degrees and LCC petitions).
> .



Rush hour - got to time it for impact.

_Schedule:
5pm Vigil
5.30-5.45 Die-In
5.45-6.30 Rally and Vigil._

_https://m.facebook.com/events/568751353179586?_ft_&_rdr _


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## RedRider (27 Nov 2013)

Damn, damn just realised I'm on a late duty that night. If I can swap I'll be there but it's hard to get someone to swap a Friday night.


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## steveindenmark (27 Nov 2013)

As well as improving driving standards, there also needs to be a big improvement in cycling standards. All you need to do is spend 2 minutes looking on YouTube and you can see some dire cycling, by any stretch of the imagination. 

The sooner we all admit we are all at fault, the sooner things can start moving forward.

I don't think sitting on a road does any good at all.

Steve


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## theclaud (27 Nov 2013)

steveindenmark said:


> I don't think sitting on a road does any good at all.



_"With their very bodies they obstructed the wheels of injustice"_

http://www.sitins.com/story.shtml


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## Frood42 (27 Nov 2013)

theclaud said:


> Rush hour - got to time it for impact.
> 
> _Schedule:
> 5pm Vigil
> ...


 
Thank you  
.


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## steveindenmark (27 Nov 2013)

The Claud, the cut and paste specialist.

I got stuck behind something like this in Berlin a while back. I had no idea what they were protesting. But dozens of cyclists blocked the road, got the beers out and hung around for an hour. No attempt was made to interact with the drivers. No chat, no flyers, no nothing. What was the point? All it did was alienate them even more.

Steve


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## theclaud (27 Nov 2013)

steveindenmark said:


> The Claud, *the cut and paste specialist.*
> 
> I got stuck behind something like this in Berlin a while back. I had no idea what they were protesting. But dozens of cyclists blocked the road, got the beers out and hung around for an hour. No attempt was made to interact with the drivers. No chat, no flyers, no nothing. What was the point? All it did was alienate them even more.
> 
> Steve



Oooooh! The text, as a wise man once said, is a "tissue of quotations drawn from the innumerable centres of culture."

There will be flyers, banners etc on this one. I'd have thought critical mass or similar was the most likely explanation, althoughs those are usuallly moving - and if the purpose isn't self-explanatory it at least offers the opportunity to think about why drivers get annoyed by _cyclists _holding them up but take it for granted that _motor traffic_ will bring everything to a near standstill at least twice a day. But one might have thought, if you were stuck for an hour, that it might constitute an opportunity to talk to someone and find out what it was about...


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## steveindenmark (27 Nov 2013)

The problem with the Berlin event was that it didn't look as though the cyclists wanted to educate anyone about anything. It actually looked as though they just wanted to stop the traffic, prove a point and pixx everyone off. They certainly achieved their aims.

If there are going to be flyers and information, it could be an interesting experiment. Doing it on a Friday when everyone wants to get home is probably not the best idea though.

Who organises these events?

Steve


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## Frood42 (27 Nov 2013)

steveindenmark said:


> The problem with the Berlin event was that it didn't look as though the cyclists wanted to educate anyone about anything. It actually looked as though they just wanted to stop the traffic, prove a point and pixx everyone off. They certainly achieved their aims.
> 
> If there are going to be flyers and information, it could be an interesting experiment. Doing it on a Friday when everyone wants to get home is probably not the best idea though.
> 
> ...


 

IMO, I think that is the best time, or it will just be forgotten far too easily.
As long as it is marshalled properly then it shouldn't be a problem.

Have you seen some of the traffic queues that can build up in London when things like this aren't even happening?
I have seen queues all along Victoria Embankment, which made for some interesting filtering, I was very careful not to knock off any wing mirrors as well.
.


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## Frood42 (27 Nov 2013)

From: "Rhiannon Redpath via Campaigns by You" <campaignsbyyou@38degrees.org.uk>
Date: 27 Nov 2013 16:51
Subject: Friday

Dear friends,

*This Friday, over 2,000 cyclists, drivers and pedestrians* will lie down on Blackfriars Road in front of Transport for London’s HQ for what will be *London's largest ever Mass Cycle Die-In.*

[1] A quick glance at the newspapers this week will show you that the MET police, City Hall and political parties are starting to take notice.

[2] But to achieve the real change we want to see,* we need to keep up the pressure.*

By gathering in our masses for peaceful protest, we have a chance to clearly reveal the problem we face: the deaths of those who cycle. It gives us a chance to say ‘there is an alternative to this’. This action will help to send a powerful message not just to Boris, but to TfL, Borough councils, and to all Londoners.
The more people that are there, the bigger it will be. The bigger it is, the harder it will be to ignore. I’m going to be there. Will you join me?
*Friday, from 5pm, TfL's HQ at The Palestra Building, 197 Blackfriars Road (opposite Southwark Tube Station). *

Here is all the information you need:
*Join the event on Facebook:*http://www.facebook.com/events/568751353179586/?fref=ts
*Website:*www.stopthekilling.org.uk
*Use the hashtag:* #TfLDieIn

The Dutch didn’t just wake up one day with the cycle infrastructure they now have. They organised. They laid down on their streets in peaceful protest. They changed the way that their politicians think

[3]. We can do that too.

Look forward to seeing many of you there.

Cycle safe,
Rhiannon

P.S. The Mass Cycle Die-In is organised by un-affiliated grassroot cyclists who feel the recent tragedies mean that radical action now has to happen quickly to make London's roads safer for all Londoners. This is a peaceful protest.

NOTES:
[1] From 5:00pm, thousands will gather outside TfL Headquarters for a vigil in memory of those cyclists who have died. At 5:30pm, we will lie down on Blackfriars Road in front of TfL's HQ at The Palestra Building, 197 Blackfriars Road (opposite Southwark Tube Station).

[2] Of note, City Hall are hosting a Summit on CS2 tomorrow night: http://cityhalllabour.org/cycling-superhighway-2-safety-summit/ It is open to the public, and Andrew Gilligan will be attending. I’m going along, and have booked extra places - if you want to come along, hit reply to let me know and I’ll add you to the Save Our Cyclists list of attendees. Exciting!

[3] Bicycle Dutch, How the Dutch got their cycling infrastructure, http://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2011/10/20/how-the-dutch-got-their-cycling-infrastructure/

You received this email because you signed the petition 'Save Our Cyclists'.
.


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## Rouge79 (27 Nov 2013)

I used to agree with many of the sentiments above saying that "it won't make a difference"

However times are a changing and IMO and others now is the time to act!! So much press and TV coverage regarding cycling safety and with more exposure of this event on C4, hopefully the politicians will finally listen and start to make remedies.

I used to be 100% against CM but even with that i am now in favour.


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## newfhouse (27 Nov 2013)

There's a bit of confusion regarding the aims of this protest. Facebook lists these aims:


> - We need Amsterdam levels of money spent per person on London's Cycling Safety NOW.
> - Cycling Organisations need at least 2 formal Board Members on TfL Board.
> - We need ALL Boroughs to be spending at least 10% of their Mayoral approved transport budgets spent on cycling infrastructure.
> - We need all Borough and TfL Transport Heads qualified to deliver Dutch Style safety or be fired.
> ...



and http://stopthekilling.org.uk/ lists just these three:


> The Mayor and Boroughs to spend at least the same per person on cycling provision as The Netherlands (the UK spends about £1.25 per person – The Netherlands spends about £33 per person);
> A ban on vehicles whose drivers cannot see adjacent road-users; and,
> A full London-wide segregated network to be built urgently.


I'm not convinced that the call for full segregation is sensible or desirable but I still intend to attend this event to support the broad message.


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## Rouge79 (27 Nov 2013)

I too don't fully agree with all the aims. Total segregation can present its own issues. Cars and cyclists need to learn how to share road space.


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## deptfordmarmoset (27 Nov 2013)

Snippet from an email: 


> The Mass Cycle Die-In is organised by un-affiliated grassroot cyclists who feel the recent tragedies mean that radical action now has to happen quickly to make London's roads safer for all Londoners. This is a peaceful protest.


It's the unaffiliated and grassroots bit that counts. While more organised interests, LCC for example, consider segregation to be part of their aims, they are not leading the ride, they are participating in it. Being prepared to say ''stop the killing'' is all it needs in essence and don't believe that it's necessary to align yourself with the whole gamut of a participating organisation's policies.


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## gaz (27 Nov 2013)

I'll be there. Not sure what time though.


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## Kies (27 Nov 2013)

I will be there on the Dahon - come say hello if you see me


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## slowmotion (27 Nov 2013)

I recklessly promised, hereabouts, that I would sample a Critical Mass ride on the same evening. I'm getting cold feet about it, the more I discover. 
Might I be allowed to attend The Die In instead, and still maintain my thinly-smeared street cred? It sounds a lot more like my"cup of tea" than CM.
What say, Comrades?


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## RedRider (28 Nov 2013)

slowmotion said:


> I recklessly promised, hereabouts, that I would sample a Critical Mass ride on the same evening. I'm getting cold feet about it, the more I discover.
> Might I be allowed to attend The Die In instead, and still maintain my thinly-smeared street cred? It sounds a lot more like my"cup of tea" than CM.
> What say, Comrades?


I imagine the two mingling and you'll be able to claim both.


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## slowmotion (28 Nov 2013)

RedRider said:


> I imagine the two mingling and you'll be able to claim both.


 Being "Dead" and then "Critical" seems a bit "arse about tit".


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## RedRider (28 Nov 2013)

slowmotion said:


> Being "Dead" and then "Critical" seems a bit "arse about tit".


Ha. Just like Benjamin Button only more fun.


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## wiggydiggy (28 Nov 2013)

Spinney said:


> If this was done, much of the rest would not be as necessary. All it needs is better policing, and police and magistrates to throw the book at drivers on phones, and inconsiderate driving in general. People would eventually get the point.



How will sitting in the road achieve this?


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## Spinney (28 Nov 2013)

wiggydiggy said:


> How will sitting in the road achieve this?


My post was addressing point 2 in your post, not the effectiveness or otherwise of the die-in.


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## ManiaMuse (28 Nov 2013)

slowmotion said:


> I recklessly promised, hereabouts, that I would sample a Critical Mass ride on the same evening. I'm getting cold feet about it, the more I discover.
> Might I be allowed to attend The Die In instead, and still maintain my thinly-smeared street cred? It sounds a lot more like my"cup of tea" than CM.
> What say, Comrades?


Critical Mass doesn't set off until 7pm. Die in thing is scheduled to finish at 6.30pm so probably won't overlap.


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## Frood42 (28 Nov 2013)

[QUOTE 2793156, member: 1314"]Give me a shout as well. I won't be wearing anything on my head and will have a beard. And a burgundy and white striped rugby top.[/quote]

And the bike..?
.


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## deptfordmarmoset (28 Nov 2013)

Is that a Waitrose shopping bag under the saddle? (Just so I know whether it's you.)


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## deptfordmarmoset (28 Nov 2013)

[QUOTE 2793230, member: 1314"]
Anyway, it's Budgens. I spit on Waitrose.[/quote]
I hang my head in shame - there goes my boulevard cred!


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## Frood42 (28 Nov 2013)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> Is that a Waitrose shopping bag under the saddle? (Just so I know whether it's you.)


 
I thought it was an M&S bag, as the Waitrose bags are white  
Anyway, I thought all the Waitrose shoppers decided to defect to Lidl now 
.


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## Frood42 (28 Nov 2013)

[QUOTE 2793383, member: 1314"]I also spit on M&S.[/quote]

They do a lovely double choc swiss roll  
.


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## Frood42 (28 Nov 2013)

[QUOTE 2793406, member: 1314"]Actually, their 3 for a tenner Sunday lunch deal's ok.
Roast chicken, dessert and wine.[/quote]

You can have that, especially after you have spat in it  
.


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## Twelve Spokes (28 Nov 2013)

Rouge79 said:


> I too don't fully agree with all the aims. Total segregation can present its own issues. Cars and cyclists need to learn how to share road space.



It isn't actually a problem in other countries.


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## Kies (28 Nov 2013)

[QUOTE 2793156, member: 1314"]Give me a shout as well. I won't be wearing anything on my head and will have a beard. And a burgundy and white striped rugby top.[/quote]

PM me your number. Will be coming over from docklands , so along borough high street . Give you a call around 5 pm


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## RedRider (28 Nov 2013)

I swapped my shift so I can make it. I'm the one wearing the brand new Rapha jeans, discernible by their tasteful pink reflectives when turned up. (I might not have them turned up tho as I'm self-conscious about wearing the brand. So, good luck finding me!)


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## RedRider (28 Nov 2013)

[QUOTE 2794259, member: 1314"]Will they be blinking? [/quote]
They were blinking expensive.


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## Kies (28 Nov 2013)

[QUOTE 2794255, member: 1314"]My phone's died. See my thread in café! Could meet you outside the Blackfriars pub at 4.30? [/quote]

Make it 5pm then - the blackfriars sounds good - mines a pint of Guiness ;-)


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## slowmotion (28 Nov 2013)

Is that the pub on the north side of the bridge? Given that I am due to die thirty minutes later, I might feel in need of some final lubrication.

Don't wait for me though. I could be late.


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## Kies (28 Nov 2013)

Yes it's at the start of the bridge, on the opposite side to the unilever building. You will be able to find us as i'll be drinking Guiness on a Dahon. Leaving there are 5:15pm


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## slowmotion (28 Nov 2013)

Splendid!


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## deptfordmarmoset (29 Nov 2013)

An unfortunate set of circumstances has meant that I will be stuck in a car in traffic jams* when the die in is scheduled. 

*This will no doubt be due to some cyclist somewhere.


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## TwickenhamCyclist (29 Nov 2013)

Room for one more at the pub?


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## Kies (29 Nov 2013)

I should be at the pub by 5pm. Will wait outside the pub with my Dahon,on the wide pavement that faces the river. if we have time before can go for a beer, otherwise up for a pint after.


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## gaz (29 Nov 2013)

[QUOTE 2795121, member: 1314"]Can we meet at Blackfriars Pub at 5.15 and leave at 5.20 (!) I'm thinking traffic as cyclists build up...I will try and arrive for 5. Otherwise we can all go have a quick pint afters? Could be 4 or 5 of us. More if we bump into @gaz / @BentMikey[/quote]
What pub? Not sure what time i'll be there. I finish at 5 but trying to get out earlier.


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## Kies (29 Nov 2013)

The blacfriars. North side of the bridge. Hint: it's Called the BLACFRIARS LOL


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## fossyant (29 Nov 2013)

What's the betting none of you will make the protest ?


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## Frood42 (29 Nov 2013)

[QUOTE 2795662, member: 1314"]We can be part of it outside the pub. Whole road's closed off as it'll all be full of cyclists. Cold and sober in the road or cold and with a drink on the pub fore-court just off the road.[/quote]


Cold and sober in the road 

I cannot make it, cannot get away from work 


Can I just say thanks to the volunteers who were out in the cold last night handing out leaflets.
I met what seemed like a nice enough german accented fellow at some lights along Cable Street/CS3.
.


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## glenn forger (29 Nov 2013)

Good turn out, the cops doing a good job, cheerful singing going on.


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## Frood42 (29 Nov 2013)

glenn forger said:


> Good turn out, the cops doing a good job, cheerful singing going on.


 

Wow, thanks for posting this, looks busy there.
I really wish I could have come 

Enjoy the evening!
.


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## shouldbeinbed (29 Nov 2013)

glenn forger said:


> Good turn out, the cops doing a good job, cheerful singing going on.


 terrific turn out


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## cosmicbike (29 Nov 2013)

Looks to be a good showing, few more pics at the 'Stop The Killing' Facebook page


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## slowmotion (29 Nov 2013)

User13710 said:


> Any news of Crock's beard? Photo?


 Not on a family forum, please!


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## cosmicbike (29 Nov 2013)

Some reasonable coverage given on BBC London...


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## Sara_H (29 Nov 2013)

I wish I could have gone, today's the one year anniversary of my near death experience, so a due in would have been an appropriate celebration!


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## Kies (29 Nov 2013)




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## Kies (29 Nov 2013)

You mean he is normally bum fluff free?


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## Kies (29 Nov 2013)

[QUOTE 2796077, member: 1314"]Went to the wrong pub. Should've gone to the one opposite Southwark tube. Could've sneaked in an extra pint.[/quote]

Good to finally meet you and the other CC'ers


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## Kies (29 Nov 2013)

fossyant said:


> What's the betting none of you will make the protest ?



We certainly did .... I see you got there before us!


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## stowie (29 Nov 2013)

I was there, but managed to see no-one I would recognise from your pics on here - was around the side of the TfL building. I did see someone with a cyclechat shirt on but he was too far away to try to say hello.

I didn't see the naked man either - I must say that took courage in this weather...


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## deptfordmarmoset (29 Nov 2013)

Kies said:


> We certainly did .... I see you got there before us!
> View attachment 33352


I know it's mild for November but tell that naked chappie that it's still November!


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## TwickenhamCyclist (29 Nov 2013)

Great to take part and great to meet some fellow forum members.


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## stowie (29 Nov 2013)

Andrew Gilligans response to tonight's protest is here.

I must say I didn't attend because I am in a dialogue of the deaf. I attended because I use CS2 several times a week and TfL managed to spend a small fortune on something that is utter sh!t and frequently actually makes matters worse, not better for cyclists. And that their response to the danger at Bow was to instigate a confusing system which makes cyclists wait twice at the lights because traffic flow is more important than putting in decent cycle and pedestrian lights (which could be easily combined to make a very reasonable crossing). I also went because the response to cyclists dying in collisions with HGVS was to start fining cyclists and talking about high viz and plastic hats.

I don't agree with everything said at the rally - if you could find an agenda that over 1000 people agreed with in its entirety I would be surprised. But asking to not have to share the roads with lorries that don't have mirrors to eliminate blind spots in a crowded city like London doesn't sound like asking for the moon on a stick. Hell, it would be quite nice to not have to share the roads with some HGV drivers who have been found to be p!ssed, half blind, driving unlicensed or on the phone _after _they have killed someone.

Gilligan has a nerve. I gave the benefit of the doubt when he talked about knee-jerk reactions , although cyclists (and pedestrians) have been disproportionately dying with HGV collisions for years. But with this article he can fek off.


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## TwickenhamCyclist (30 Nov 2013)

I went to school with Gilligan (Greycourt School, Ham 80 to 85) he was a twat then as well.


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## TwickenhamCyclist (30 Nov 2013)

I must apologies about my above post.
I wrote it without reading Gilligan's piece.
I automatically assumed that, based upon his past journalistic endeavors, coupled with personal experience, what lead to the conclusion that his opinion was that of a total twat was somewhat justified. Having read the drivel, and remembered back bit more, I can conclude its total fiddle


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## Davidsw8 (30 Nov 2013)

Well done everyone who took part in this, it looked amazing on the news! Very proud of you.

I hope someone will pay some attention now, we need it.


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## Firestorm (30 Nov 2013)

A ban on vehicles whose drivers cannot see adjacent road-users
This is probably the best place to start from

All road users should not proceed further than they can observe the nearest road user , not the vehicle but the road user.
The onus being on the user who is not stationary having responsiblity not to manoevre 
their vehicle into a position where either they or the statonary road user can not observe them

I have seen large vehicles with signs on saying if you cant see my mirrors i cant see you.
This is an extension of that common sense approach


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## Black Country Ste (1 Dec 2013)

It was good to come down and take part in this. The focus is on London and the spate of recent deaths there but in the same period another five cyclists were killed across the country. Where the smoke goes, the rest of the country follows. It was important to add a body to the numbers for the sake of making UK roads fit for people.


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## stowie (1 Dec 2013)

Firestorm said:


> A ban on vehicles whose drivers cannot see adjacent road-users
> This is probably the best place to start from
> 
> All road users should not proceed further than they can observe the nearest road user , not the vehicle but the road user.
> ...



That would be interesting to see with car drivers who, using this rule, wouldn't be able to overtake lorries in the second lane of motorways, queue next to them or indeed wait less than around 15 feet behind them. How would lorry drivers in a multi-lane queue not put other vehicles in their blind spot as they moved faster relative to other lanes? If a lorry was first in the queue at a pedestrian crossing presumably pedestrians wouldn't be able to use the pedestrian crossing as they would go through the lorry's front blind spot (unless they have a front mirror fitted). As I cycle down a bus lane then I assume I wouldn't be able to progress past an HGV in the general traffic queue as it may mean I go through a blind spot?

The fact is that, in a busy city such as London, road users in all types of transport will be entering a large vehicle's blind spot as they negotiate the road. To completely avoid this would be impossible. One can do what one can such as not filtering left past HGVs at junctions and trying to wait outside the blind spot area, but I think everyone who cycles in London has had cases where the lorry has arrived as you are waiting in the ASL and you realise with dread that the driver now cannot possibly see you. And this is advice for survival not a blueprint for how the problem should be tackled. The makers and users of these large vehicles are building and using these vehicles and bringing this danger to other road users. It is their responsibility to mitigate this danger, something which can actually be done to a large extent without vast sums of money having to be spent.


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## arallsopp (2 Dec 2013)

stowie said:


> I was there, but managed to see no-one I would recognise from your pics on here - was around the side of the TfL building. I did see someone with a cyclechat shirt on but he was too far away to try to say hello.



Fairly likely that was me. If he looked extremely cold, it was definitely me. The CC attire is good for drawing out other members. I shared a few moments with @BentMikey and the Lady Jane.


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## TwickenhamCyclist (2 Dec 2013)

stowie said:


> Andrew Gilligans response to tonight's protest is here.
> 
> I must say I didn't attend because I am in a dialogue of the deaf. I attended because I use CS2 several times a week and TfL managed to spend a small fortune on something that is utter sh!t and frequently actually makes matters worse, not better for cyclists. And that their response to the danger at Bow was to instigate a confusing system which makes cyclists wait twice at the lights because traffic flow is more important than putting in decent cycle and pedestrian lights (which could be easily combined to make a very reasonable crossing). I also went because the response to cyclists dying in collisions with HGVS was to start fining cyclists and talking about high viz and plastic hats.
> 
> ...



There seems to be a fair few intelligent criticisms of Gilligan's response to the protest getting posted under his original blog entry (not that difficult when you consider what utter rubbish he wrote in the first place)
This one seems to sum it up pretty well:



"Instead of being rude and disparaging of well over a thousand people who protested this evening, perhaps going along to see what it was all about and listen would have been more effective than mouthing off prematurely?!

Many of us who went have lost loved ones and these comments are out of order.

The demand for a ban on vehicles that are blind to those around them is NOT a demand for all lorries to be banned 24/7. Either you are being very dim or disingenuous. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you just didn't 'get it'. As the brave, bereaved mother of a girl killed by an HGV in Birmingham said, equipment that costs just a few hundred pounds would save lives. Lorry drivers, by definition, do not have to be blind to all that is around them. As the Mayor and you both say you are working on imposing charges/restrictions on lorries without safety kit in London, you must know this. Cameras, well-designed cabs, sensors, warning alerts, proper training, etc can all enable lorry drivers to be aware of what is around them. Rush hour bans are also possible, and the Olympics proved that tough restrictions can be made to work.

The idea that those of us who protested are just out to set TfL up to fail is both absurd and offensive. We just want to be safe and we don't want to see any more people dying needlessly. The demands of the Dutch Cycling Union would seem ridiculous here, but it is the persistent demands for ever better facilities that have helped bring about the cycling revolution in The Netherlands - that didn't happen by people being grateful for every crumb tossed at them. It was this type of protest in The Netherlands that inspired tonight's 'Die in'. 'Stop child murder' was a pretty harsh slogan, but it worked.

When we complain about the crackdown on cyclists, we do so, not because we are blind to the dangers, quite the contrary is true. When cyclists make up such a small percentage of traffic, cause so few deaths and serious injuries, we object to the police issuing 40% of tickets to cyclists in the recent (otherwise welcome) crackdown. We don't say it is OK for people to flout the law however they travel, and as you note above, some infringements like stopping ahead of the line can often be done because cyclists are forced to do so by drivers abusing ASLs (which the CPS also seem to have acknowledged in their decision to drop a prosecution for that very situation).

We do object to being stopped and rudely told by the police to wear helmets, which are optional, and arguably dangerous (the CTC's excellent evidence review makes that very clear). All we are saying is that people should get their priorities right - that means sorting out HGVs as the main focus for action right now.

Whilst the plans for more cycle projects are welcome, we are too used to promises not being met. CS2 was delivered by this Mayor and he has taken too long to properly respond to concerns about it. He still expresses scepticism of the Go Dutch principles, despite signing up to them. We were promised CS5 by the end of the year, where is it - is TfL just going to back down to the crazies in Westminster Council again? Where is the big vision for a city where all main roads have safe, largely segregated cycle lanes and all side roads, residential streets and town centres have 20 mph limits? Why has the Safer Junctions review web page not been updated for 9 months and why are the few upgrades delivered so rubbish? Why are cycle campaigners still being told that motor traffic cannot be delayed to make junctions safer? We see too many vague promises. As the protest organiser said this evening 'it isn't rocket science' - just do what the Dutch do instead of finding endless excuses not to.

We appreciate change takes time, but we are seeing too little, delivered too late, evidence being ignored, promises being broken and no big vision for a fully cycle-safe and pedestrian-safe city.

Like any big group of people, there are a diversity of views and campaigning styles. As London's cycling commissioner, I hope that you make more effort to understand and unite London's many different current cyclists, those who want to cycle and other road safety campaigners. We need you firmly on our side, not playing piggy in the middle or sowing division.

Don't become part of the problem and don't let defensiveness lead you to fire off half-cocked.

Boris at least had the good sense to welcome the protest. I hope you will take the chance to apologise to all those you have offended and upset and start to see the cycle campaigners as part of your army, not your opposition. Work with us, don't patronise us."


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## Davidsw8 (2 Dec 2013)

TwickenhamCyclist said:


> There seems to be a fair few intelligent criticisms of Gilligan's response to the protest getting posted under his original blog entry (not that difficult when you consider what utter rubbish he wrote in the first place)
> This one seems to sum it up pretty well:
> 
> 
> ...



That's an annoying post from AG, it starts off interestingly with the LTDA's cretinous findings but then he's writing off the cycling campaigners desires for change by saying, 'we're doing enough already and they just want more and they don't even know what they want'. The fact is, they may feel like they're doing enough but they seem to be doing the wrong thing/s (which ends up as being nothing).

With reference to the LTDA's findings, maybe I'll stand on a street corner in Westminster and film how many cabbies never indicate or how many pick up/drop off fares on corners and junctions - I'm willing to put money on both figures being a damn sight higher than 53%!


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## TwickenhamCyclist (2 Dec 2013)




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## deptfordmarmoset (2 Dec 2013)

TwickenhamCyclist said:


> There seems to be a fair few intelligent criticisms of Gilligan's response to the protest getting posted under his original blog entry (not that difficult when you consider what utter rubbish he wrote in the first place)



The second part of his blog title was:


> *Cycling in London is becoming a dialogue of the deaf*


He's right though. We're talking but he's not listening and Boris certainly isn't either.


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## stowie (2 Dec 2013)

arallsopp said:


> Fairly likely that was me. If he looked extremely cold, it was definitely me. The CC attire is good for drawing out other members. I shared a few moments with @BentMikey and the Lady Jane.



Well it was nice to nearly meet you! 

I only saw one CC shirt so I guess it is a good possibility it was you. I did wonder if I should start waving through the mass of cyclists but seeing as you would have no idea who I was I thought it might look a bit odd...


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## MichaelO (9 Dec 2013)

So the source of potential cyclists being scared off London's roads.....is cyclists who want to improve things. What a warped world we live in.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-25298354


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## Frood42 (9 Dec 2013)

MichaelO said:


> So the source of potential cyclists being scared off London's roads.....is cyclists who want to improve things. What a warped world we live in.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-25298354



I don't believe they are scaring people off at all.

Boris doesn't like the attention they are bringing and is trying to deflect their efforts, as the more pressure they place on him the more he has to look like he is doing something (rather than just spouting crap about spending a drop in the puddle £931million, IMO).
.


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## HLaB (9 Dec 2013)

I do believe it does add to the incorectly peceived fears of some people. Its maybe being selfish but I also believe the issue is more important than a few people who might be discouraged and in all honesty would probably find some other excuse not to cycle anyway and needs to be highlighted.


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## deptfordmarmoset (9 Dec 2013)

What scares me is not the deaths or the serious injuries - they've been around for a long time - but it's the fact that nobody's prepared to do anything about it. 

When Jenny Jones repeatedly had to bring Boris back to the worsening KSI per journey figures, he accused her of ''hysterical scaremongering.'' So he's not prepared to look at the London problem. Gilligan later also used a similar tactic of only talking about deaths with a crowning flourish about not wanting to talk about deaths for fear of frightening people. The industries involved are not prepared to improve truck design. The authorities that licensed them to drive on public highways have already let us down. Hauliers have an appalling compliance on legal driving requirements and tippers are still operating without sidebars. Daily I see HGV drivers using hand held phones. The transport select committee asks questions about MOTs for bikes, rolled out the ''whatever happened to cycling proficiency?'' chestnut and generally displayed that their awareness of cycling issues ceased when they got a little badge for cycling around a couple of cones in the school playground 50 years ago. Oh and headphones!

Those are the things that really frighten me.


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## deptfordmarmoset (9 Dec 2013)

Interestingly, though, BJ appears to have backed away from blaming campaigners for scaring people off cycling. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-25298354


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## Kies (9 Dec 2013)

Like any politician, he wants the glory of getting London moving (by bike), but these deaths have brought his silly blue paint into focus. Changing these junctions will cost vast amounts of money - money he is not prepared to spend quickly.


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## glenn forger (9 Dec 2013)

> Mr Johnson said too that he was tackling the issue of dangerous lorries. He said: "We are driving up safety standards for all vehicles.
> 
> "All lorries contracted to Tfl, the GLA or our supply chains will have side bars, audible and visual warnings, driver training and other ways of reducing the risk of collision
> 
> ...



http://road.cc/content/news/100439-...ing-dangerous-junctions-overhauls-33-promised

Random checks and 14 vehicles were so dangerous or their drivers were breaking the law so badly the lorries were taken off the road.


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## slowmotion (10 Dec 2013)

The construction industry works at a brisk pace. Lots of muck-away tippers zipping about, skip trucks too. There is CrossRail, there is that new Sewer thing, and perhaps that HS2 bonkers madness to look forward to. I always thought that Tooley Street was some kind of "Death Alley" during the build up to the Olympics. Horrid. I think that there might be a change in lorry operators' attitude. I'm not entirely gloomy.


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## glenn forger (10 Dec 2013)

Boris is first and foremost a politician, necessarily compromised by the people who bend politicians' ears in this country. Freight and construction representatives donated £2m to the tories in 2011, Boris has two representatives of cabbies on the TFL board, he's not going to do anything silly like upset the powerful people who fund his party or decide transport policy in the capital.


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## Leodis (10 Dec 2013)

Black Country Ste said:


> It was good to come down and take part in this. The focus is on London and the spate of recent deaths there but in the same period another five cyclists were killed across the country. Where the smoke goes, the rest of the country follows. It was important to add a body to the numbers for the sake of making UK roads fit for people.



Ste, the issue is that the rest of UK cycling are trying to make the UK roads safer whereas London cyclists are looking after their own. I am sick to death of reading London related issues on CC.Road, even when a cyclist was killed in a hit and run in Harrogate they ignored this and kept on with the same old shite from Boris the twat.


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## Frood42 (10 Dec 2013)

Leodis said:


> Ste, the issue is that the rest of UK cycling are trying to make the UK roads safer whereas London cyclists are looking after their own. I am sick to death of reading London related issues on CC.Road, even when a cyclist was killed in a hit and run in Harrogate they ignored this and kept on with the same old s***e from Boris the twat.



The thing is, people will look to see what London is doing and what is happening in London as that is the capital.
Whether that is good or bad is another thing, but if you can make change happen and work in the capital it will be easier to do it elsewhere.

You also forgot Andew Gilligan, not really doing much either, considering he is the "cycling ambassador".
He should really be pushing Boris and TFL to do better, and instead, well, doesn't appear to be doing much at all...
.


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## deptfordmarmoset (10 Dec 2013)

@Leodis - I believe if things cannot get improved in London, where there is a greater proportion of cyclists on urban roads, more construction projects and a degree of budgetting, then they won't get sorted in any other urban centre either. 

Look away because, in unashamedly Londoncentric news, the KSI figures that BJ won't talk about have just reappeared....http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-25306281


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## Leodis (10 Dec 2013)

I know, reading cc.road makes me feel sick at times the bias there.


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