# Titanium ????



## Hedgemonkey (13 Mar 2018)

Is Titanium really worth the extra cost over a nice good steel frame, or are we just considering bling value. Yes I know it doesn't rust, but my old 853 mtb frame is over 10 years old and had a hard life and apart from the dents and scratches is still in good shape.


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## dan_bo (13 Mar 2018)

are you less than 11 stone? then yes.


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## Maenchi (13 Mar 2018)

when I got one there were two price brackets, £700 and £1400, I got a £700 frame......great !


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## Hedgemonkey (13 Mar 2018)

dan_bo said:


> are you less than 11 stone? then yes.



Just touching 12st why the weight ?


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## lazyfatgit (13 Mar 2018)

Hedgemonkey said:


> Is Titanium really worth the extra cost over a nice good steel frame, or are we just considering bling value. Yes I know it doesn't rust, but my old 853 mtb frame is over 10 years old and had a hard life and apart from the dents and scratches is still in good shape.


I spoke with a frame builder a few months ago and as @dan_bo says it depends on your weight. 

At 96kg an 6ft 2 I was advised my current carbon fibre setup was probably worth sticking with.


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## dan_bo (13 Mar 2018)

Hedgemonkey said:


> Just touching 12st why the weight ?


cos unless ypure light Ti gets wobbly. YMMV.


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## StuAff (13 Mar 2018)

I can't imagine any of the big Ti frame manufacturers having any problems with riders of that weight. 

BTW: Yes, you want a Ti bike


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## vickster (13 Mar 2018)

dan_bo said:


> cos unless ypure light Ti gets wobbly. YMMV.


Springy not wobbly


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## dan_bo (13 Mar 2018)

vickster said:


> Springy not wobbly


The hysteresis curve may not be what the designer intended.


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## vickster (13 Mar 2018)

The what?!!


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## Drago (13 Mar 2018)

Hysteresis. It means the designer can't have babies any more.


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## fossyant (13 Mar 2018)

853 and 10 years old, it's still like new.


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## Venod (13 Mar 2018)

12 to 12.5 stone depending on time of year I have had 5 Titanium frames, none of them none of them have been Wobbly all excellent rides, one of them did crack but was fine when welded, I have three at the moment, it's my favourite frame material.


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## Lozz360 (13 Mar 2018)

Hysteresis means lagging behind. Not a great attribute for club rides!


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## Trickedem (13 Mar 2018)

I am between 15 and 16 stone. I've had my titanium Van Nicholas Yukon for 7 years now. Absolutely no problems with it. Very comfortable and handles beautifully. I have also done 3 long tours with it loaded with 2 small panniers.


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## HLaB (14 Mar 2018)

My ti rides smoother than my old steel frame but that's probably due to the components. But its lighter and more robust than steel so I think its worth it.


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## hoopdriver (14 Mar 2018)

It appears to me to be a matter of fashion as much as anything - a well designed and wellconstructed bicycle frame will make for a great bike whatever the material happens to be, and will be appropriate for any rider unless they are of truly exceptional size. Titanium is popular and has many wonderful qualities, and gives a great ride. So does steel. So does carbon. Your choice depends as much on taste and aesthetics as anything else - and fashionability, of course.

Titanium can be trickier to work with so if you go that route you want to be sure to go to a good frame builder, one who specialises in titanium and knows what he or she is doing.

As far as rust goes, both Reynolds and Columbus make wonderful lightweight tube sets in stainless steel.


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## Globalti (14 Mar 2018)

The first time I ever rode a Ti bike I actually thought it had a rear wheel puncture, so smooth was the ride. I've had three Ti mountain bikes and loved them all. And titanium looks so sexy.


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## jowwy (14 Mar 2018)

dan_bo said:


> cos unless ypure light Ti gets wobbly. YMMV.


what??


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## dan_bo (14 Mar 2018)

jowwy said:


> what??


What?


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## Soltydog (14 Mar 2018)

16+ stone & have steel, alloy & Ti in the garage. Ti is by far the comfiest ride IMHO. Had a carbon bike & it was a close call between that & Ti, but Ti just edged it for me, although the carbon did feel better at climbing hills, but living in the flats of East Yorkshire that isn't very often


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## jowwy (14 Mar 2018)

dan_bo said:


> What?


im questioning your quote on Ti be wobbly if your not light


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## User169 (14 Mar 2018)

hoopdriver said:


> It appears to me to be a matter of fashion as much as anything - *a well designed and wellconstructed bicycle frame will make for a great bike whatever the material happens to be, and will be appropriate for any rider unless they are of truly exceptional size. Titanium is popular and has many wonderful qualities, and gives a great ride. So does steel. So does carbon.* Your choice depends as much on taste and aesthetics as anything else - and fashionability, of course.
> 
> Titanium can be trickier to work with so if you go that route you want to be sure to go to a good frame builder, one who specialises in titanium and knows what he or she is doing.
> 
> As far as rust goes, both Reynolds and Columbus make wonderful lightweight tube sets in stainless steel.



And so does (seemingly currently unfashionable) aluminium.


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## al-fresco (14 Mar 2018)

Last year I bought a Spa Audax Ti. It's not as light or fast as my carbon bike. (Not really a fair comparison as I don't inflict my Willier with mudguards and a big Carradice saddle bag.) I can't really say that the Ti is more comfortable, not definitively, all my bikes feel comfortable. But I love the Ti, wish I'd bought one years ago.


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## dan_bo (14 Mar 2018)

jowwy said:


> im questioning your quote on Ti be wobbly if your not light



Every Ti owner ive spoken to- of both modern and older Ti framed bikes and there's been a few-have said the same.


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## jowwy (14 Mar 2018)

dan_bo said:


> Every Ti owner ive spoken to- of both modern and older Ti framed bikes and there's been a few-have said the same.


Im 18st had 3 Ti bikes and have never had such an issue..........


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## FishFright (14 Mar 2018)

dan_bo said:


> Every Ti owner ive spoken to- of both modern and older Ti framed bikes and there's been a few-have said the same.




Oddly not one of the people I've talked to who ride Ti have said that , we they all really fat ?


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## dan_bo (14 Mar 2018)

FishFright said:


> Oddly not one of the people I've talked to who ride Ti have said that , we they all really fat ?


 Various!


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## Racing roadkill (14 Mar 2018)

Steel is real.


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## Heltor Chasca (14 Mar 2018)

Hedgemonkey said:


> Is Titanium really worth the extra cost over a nice good steel frame, or are we just considering bling value. Yes I know it doesn't rust, but my old 853 mtb frame is over 10 years old and had a hard life and apart from the dents and scratches is still in good shape.



I have a Spa Cycles Elan in Ti. The price wasn’t far off my Surly DT (steel) so price can be ruled out. It is lighter. It is faster. It is as comfortable as my tourer in a different way. And at 73kg (me not the bike) I have never noticed any wobblyness. For me, this bike was very much about getting something of beauty that would suit as an Audax bike. It has about 2k on the clock (km) and about the same used on my Kickr Snap. In my opinion I made a very good choice.

The ONLY thing which would make it more beautiful would be orange bar tape.


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## swee'pea99 (14 Mar 2018)

I'd love an 853 frame. I had a 653 onetime and it was a terrific ride. Looked great too!


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## MichaelW2 (14 Mar 2018)

The ride quality depends on the tube diameter, profile and wall thickness. Titanium can be built for ultralight riders or for heavyweights. The economics really depend on how much submarine and nuclear construction is going on. In downtimes, the material and the skilled welders are available for other products.


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## Hedgemonkey (14 Mar 2018)

Heltor Chasca said:


> I have a Spa Cycles Elan in Ti. The price wasn’t far off my Surly DT (steel) so price can be ruled out. It is lighter. It is faster. It is as comfortable as my tourer in a different way. And at 73kg (me not the bike) I have never noticed any wobblyness. For me, this bike was very much about getting something of beauty that would suit as an Audax bike. It has about 2k on the clock (km) and about the same used on my Kickr Snap. In my opinion I made a very good choice.
> 
> The ONLY thing which would make it more beautiful would be orange bar tape.



You have the bike, I'm dithering over, is yours the disc version ?


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## vickster (14 Mar 2018)

Hedgemonkey said:


> You have the bike, I'm dithering over, is yours the disc version ?


Do go look at it and ride. I considered it but the price certainly reflects the quality of the finish. The welds were messy compared to Enigna and J Guillem bikes I tested/considered 

PX also a decent option @ianrauk can help out on finish quality p


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## Rooster1 (14 Mar 2018)

Van Nicholas is such a classy brand, I drool when I see one - they are the Maserati of bikes IMO.


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## hoopdriver (14 Mar 2018)

Reilly makes some truly gorgeous titanium bikes


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## Heltor Chasca (14 Mar 2018)

Hedgemonkey said:


> You have the bike, I'm dithering over, is yours the disc version ?



Yes. Discs. I have Archetype H PLUS SON upgraded wheels and Schmidt Dynamo hub and brights. I also fitted a light Tubus rack. Such an adaptable bike and I love the aesthetics of the sloping top tube. For the price, it’s extraordinarily good value.


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## Globalti (14 Mar 2018)

Another option: a pal of mine rides a stainless steel Starley, made in Cheshire. It's super smooth:

http://road.cc/content/news/89237-sneak-peek-starley-jks-stainless-frameset

Oh, I've just remebered that I posted about this a few months ago:

https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/ive-just-ridden-a-stainless-steel-starley-bike-oh-my.211962/


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## ianrauk (14 Mar 2018)

Rooster1 said:


> Van Nicholas is such a classy brand, I drool when I see one - they are the Maserati of bikes IMO.



Well.. I'm not going to disagree with that statement


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## ianrauk (14 Mar 2018)

vickster said:


> Do go look at it and ride. I considered it but the price certainly reflects the quality of the finish. The welds were messy compared to Enigna and J Guillem bikes I tested/considered
> 
> PX also a decent option @ianrauk can help out on finish quality p




Thanks Vik.

Yep, the Planet X Ti bikes and frames are very well made, very clean and tidy welds. The finish is top notch imo.
They are designed by former Enigma man Mark Reilly and can be had for not a lot of money too. Either as frames or as bikes.
The Hurricane Audax disc frame is £600 at the moment which is a steal.



hoopdriver said:


> Reilly makes some truly gorgeous titanium bikes



As above

Frame as bought





And built up


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## Siclo (14 Mar 2018)

Globalti said:


> Another option: a pal of mine rides a stainless steel Starley, made in Cheshire. It's super smooth:
> 
> http://road.cc/content/news/89237-sneak-peek-starley-jks-stainless-frameset
> 
> ...



Not sure whats going on with Starley, the shop's disappeared recently to be replaced with a branch of 50 cycles, it's now listed as being round the corner in what was a house that was converted to an office. The website has gone too, taken together it don't look good.


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## Venod (14 Mar 2018)

Rooster1 said:


> Van Nicholas is such a classy brand, I drool when I see one - they are the Maserati of bikes IMO.



Any excuse to post a pic of my Van Nic Chinook.


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## ianrauk (14 Mar 2018)

Afnug said:


> Any excuse to post a pic of my Van Nic Chinook.
> 
> View attachment 399999


Oh ok then, why not indeed.


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## jayonabike (14 Mar 2018)

I’ve been riding my Ti quite a lot lately. Here it is on Mondays ride

Enigma Echo


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## Hedgemonkey (14 Mar 2018)

ianrauk said:


> Thanks Vik.
> 
> Yep, the Planet X Ti bikes and frames are very well made, very clean and tidy welds. The finish is top notch imo.
> They are designed by former Enigma man Mark Reilly and can be had for not a lot of money too. Either as frames or as bikes.
> ...



I was delivering steel just round the corner from PX warehouse yesterday, I could have picked one up. It could be a stable mate for my carbon Maratona.


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## boydj (14 Mar 2018)

I've had an original Kinesis GF-Ti for a few years. Lovely, smooth-riding bike. I've got carbon for fast club rides, but the titanium always get preferred for long solo rides.


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## colly (14 Mar 2018)

DP said:


> And so does (seemingly *currently unfashionable*) aluminium.



I have two bikes I ride atm, both in Aluminium so thank God for that, I wouldn't want to be seen on anything faddy.


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## Venod (14 Mar 2018)

boydj said:


> I've had an original Kinesis GF-Ti for a few years. Lovely, smooth-riding bike. I've got carbon for fast club rides, but the titanium always get preferred for long solo rides.



Another opportunity to post a pic, now with the stem flipped and permanent SKS Longboard Mudguards,


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## Venod (14 Mar 2018)

And just to round things off, here is my third Ti bike and my favourite, an On One Pickenflick.


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## Smokin Joe (14 Mar 2018)

jayonabike said:


> I’ve been riding my Ti quite a lot lately. Here it is on Mondays ride
> 
> Enigma Echo
> 
> View attachment 400007


Looks wobbly to me.


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## Jenkins (14 Mar 2018)

I've not ridden steel so I can't say if titanium frames are better or not, but you really should get out and try a couple. Just beware - it can be addictive...




(as we seem to be having a TI porn posting day!)


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## Siclo (15 Mar 2018)

Here's a rather poorly framed picture of my Sabbath and it was definelty wobbly that day



DSC_0550


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## Ajax Bay (15 Mar 2018)

Heltor Chasca said:


> I love the aesthetics of the sloping top tube.


With that saddlebag, it would also help you get your leg over, after a hard few hours in the saddle.


Afnug said:


> a pic, now with the stem flipped and permanent SKS Longboard Mudguards,


Love the 'permanent' invisible mudguard look. How do you do that?


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## Bonefish Blues (15 Mar 2018)

Ajax Bay said:


> Love the 'permanent' invisible mudguard look. How do you do that?


A very discreet installation indeed.


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## PpPete (15 Mar 2018)

Not ridden any 853 bikes, but my Van Nic Yukon is a way smoother ride than either of my 531 steelies.

And I'd love some of those invisible mudguards too....


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## Bonefish Blues (15 Mar 2018)

PpPete said:


> Not ridden any 853 bikes, but my Van Nic Yukon is a way smoother ride than either of my 531 steelies.
> 
> And I'd love some of those invisible mudguards too....


Just search "Emperor Brand" mudguards. They do ultra-sheer cycling clothing, too.


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## Melv (15 Mar 2018)

What is everyone's thoughts on paint on a titanium frame ? Sacrelige to some I'm sure but I do love the look of a part-painted Ti Frame.


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## ianrauk (15 Mar 2018)

Melv said:


> What is everyone's thoughts on paint on a titanium frame ? Sacrelige to some I'm sure but I do love the look of a part-painted Ti Frame.




For myself the beauty in titanium is that it is unpainted and untreated. As you use the bike the finish does tarnish in some places, shines and sparkles in others, and even gets scratched and looks all the better for it.
I can understand people who want to pain a Ti frame, but not the whole frame. Some must be left to show the beauty of Ti.


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## Crankarm (15 Mar 2018)

Why do titanium frames always appear to have carbon forks? Are titanium forks not possible?

If the OP is worried about weight and wobble and is considering replacing his old steel MTB with an expensive Ti frame which frankly is never going to happen given he currently has such a low value bike anyway and a good Ti bike in a decent spec is not cheap, why does he not consider instead an aluminium framed bike which is light strong and stiff to carry his weight and wobble?


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## ianrauk (15 Mar 2018)

Titanium forks are available but very few and far between. Burls makes Ti forks.


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## Siclo (15 Mar 2018)

Crankarm said:


> Why do titanium frames always appear to have carbon forks? Are titanium forks not possible?



Ti forks are possible and there's a couple of companies that do them, notably Burls, XACD and Rockbros but you need fairly large bore tubing to reduce the flex so where you do see them, and it's still pretty rare, is CX and rigid MTB's, where the flex serves a purpose and the large bore doesn't totally spoil the aesthetics.

Bit of a TMN to @ianrauk


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## HLaB (15 Mar 2018)

boydj said:


> I've had an original Kinesis GF-Ti for a few years. Lovely, smooth-riding bike. I've got carbon for fast club rides, but the titanium always get preferred for long solo rides.


Ive got the same bike but retired the carbon and the GF is my goto bike for fast club rides too :-)


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## mustang1 (15 Mar 2018)

When they make titanium wheels, I'll consider a titanium frame.


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## Soltydog (15 Mar 2018)

ianrauk said:


> Titanium forks are available but very few and far between. Burls makes Ti forks.


Enigma did a one off last year & painted the forks & stem it a very close match to brushed Ti, I very much liked the look of that.
I'd love Ti forks, but think they tend to look very old school & prefer the look of the wide carbon blade forks


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## HLaB (15 Mar 2018)

Crankarm said:


> Why do titanium frames always appear to have carbon forks? Are titanium forks not possible?
> 
> If the OP is worried about weight and wobble and is considering replacing his old steel MTB with an expensive Ti frame which frankly is never going to happen given he currently has such a low value bike anyway and a good Ti bike in a decent spec is not cheap, why does he not consider instead an aluminium framed bike which is light strong and stiff to carry his weight and wobble?


You can get Ti forks but I think it keeps the cost and weight down with Carbon and rides better too. IMO the black forks on silver look more eye catching anyway:-)


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## Venod (15 Mar 2018)

Ajax Bay said:


> Love the 'permanent' invisible mudguard look. How do you do that?



All I can say is I am also in that picture.


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## Ajax Bay (15 Mar 2018)

For those who have the endurance to do so, have a read of this 2015 thread on the use of titanium for frames: https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/in-praise-of-titanium-and-spa-cycles.183930/ ignoring the ad hominems, appeals to authority and strawmen; oh, and scroll through the discursive 'banter' and the OT tyre tread derailleur attempts
Taster:



Yellow Saddle said:


> Titanium in an inappropriate frame material. It has no benefits over steel, aluminium or carbon and is more expensive to manufacture than any of them.
> Titanium's reputation as a super-strong material is ill-founded. It is half as strong as steel but half as heavy. It is twice as strong as aluminium, but twice as heavy. Strength is not the crux of the story though since even aluminium (four times weaker than steel*) is strong enough.
> Titanium tubing is very expensive and it is an expensive material to work with. It readily work-hardens so that it's properties change as the piece is milled or drilled or bent. Without proper heat treatment, those pretty welds do crack and rather quickly too, if the job is not perfect.
> Other materials are better at doing the job of a modern frame. Aluminium can be hydro-formed into organic shapes (think smooth tapered head tube and special blending end-pieces where one tube meets up with another). Carbon is of course the ultimate organic-shapeable material. it can be made into just about any form and we see these smooth, flowing forms on today's carbon frames. By comparison, titanium frames are agricultural. The bottom bracket is just a piece of pipe, as is the head tube. Yes, they've fiddled a bit with the downtube nowadays but even that looks bolted on, it just doesn't mimic the organic forms we have come to love on modern bikes.
> ...





Yellow Saddle said:


> Yes and no. Firstly, titanium is not stronger than steel, only half as strong. Also half the weight in steel. But that's not the real issue here.
> The issue is how thin you can draw the tubing. Already, steel tubing is drawn to approximately 0.6mm (the Reynolds historians can help me out here). Tubing this thin, even when butted (made thicker at the ends) pose problems with welding, attaching fixtures such as water bottle cages etc. The drawing process also cannot proportionally thin out a material according to its strength to just any arbritary figure. There is a practical limit. I'll use an extreme example of some super-strength steel that's drawn so thin that you can squash the down-tube with your hand like a beer can.
> Although ti can be hydro-formed like aluminium, it is very expensive and difficult to do it, leaving us with limited shapes, tapers and butting. Hydroforming is a process where a piece of tube is put inside a mould and literally inflated by pumping liquid into it under pressure until it has stretched and conformed to the mould. Modern aluminium bicycles display nice examples of this technique where a slip top tube flares out to mate nicely against a fat head tube for a smooth, organic look. This is not only about looks but also about getting the weld interface just right. If you look at old Cannondales from the 1990s, you'll notice that they managed to get the fat downtube right but where I meets the slim head tube (which was just a straight piece of pipe), they had to do a lot of fillet welding to get it reasonable. Compare that to today's joints where both pieces are hydroformed.
> This restricts titanium to relatively small tubes and a distinctive style. part of the style is then a mismatched carbon fork. Ti forks of the right strength are heavy - as heavy as steel forks. Of course there is nothing wrong with the style but it is kinda retro and has an effect on sales.
> ...


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## StuAff (15 Mar 2018)

Ajax Bay said:


> For those who have the endurance to do so, have read of this 2015 thread on the use of titanium for frames: https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/in-praise-of-titanium-and-spa-cycles.183930/ ignoring the ad hominems, appeals to authority and strawmen; oh, and scroll through the discursive 'banter' and the OT tyre tread derailleur attempts
> Taster:


Oh yes, Mr Saddle…self-endorsed world expert on absolutely everything bicycle.


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## PpPete (15 Mar 2018)

Ajax Bay said:


> *For those who have the endurance to do so*, have read of this 2015 thread


I have endurance.... (I have to, to complete long events at my speed) but not the kind which is necessary for that!


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## Bollo (15 Mar 2018)

StuAff said:


> Oh yes, Mr Saddle…self-endorsed world expert on absolutely everything.


FTFY


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## PpPete (15 Mar 2018)

Some interesting and maybe pertinent comments about Titanium a little way down this page, from someone who actually does know what he's talking about

_...titanium is therefore and ideal choice for touring, longer day rides, audax and sportive bikes. Even though arguably they are a less valid choice for use as a race bike, they are still quite popular, as many do buy with a view to long term ownership...
_


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## 400bhp (15 Mar 2018)

Siclo said:


> Not sure whats going on with Starley, the shop's disappeared recently to be replaced with a branch of 50 cycles, it's now listed as being round the corner in what was a house that was converted to an office. The website has gone too, taken together it don't look good.



They are still going but have ditched the carbon frames and are sticking to steel.


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## Ajax Bay (17 Mar 2018)

PpPete said:


> Some interesting and maybe pertinent comments about Titanium a little way down this page, from someone who actually does know what he's talking about


Are you casting nasturtiums on the knowledge of posters on this thread? I have pasted below the section to which you refer, with my comments. Note that Paul Smith's CV says he has been heavily into titanium frames and selling them to riders for the last 17 years. But he's still riding steel.

*"Frames made of Titanium :* Until recently they were seen as expensive and rather exclusive, although they are starting to become very popular as the pricing now competes with many of the comparable alternatives." Very popular??
"Virtually no performance drop as they don’t even rust, comfortable, light, yet extremely robust, especially compared to carbon! So much so that although I personally don't believe that anything does last forever; Titanium probably comes the closest." Check.
"Race bike performance wise, . . . most will now chose carbon." (Shortened that paragraph)

"The down side is that Titanium is very hard to work/build with; so most manufacturers don't!" Check.
"On the upside because of this the workman ship simply has to be of top quality and it shows, most Titanium frames do look and are very well made." As you'd expect at those prices.
"Most common used when someone wants a fast, responsive, light comfortable yet robust, durable bike and of course *where price is not so much of an issue.*" My emboldening. Can we not use these adjectives about most decent frames?
"Titanium is therefore and ideal choice for touring, longer day rides, audax and sportive bikes." Fast? Responsive? Ideal? (as in better than other choices, taking all factors into account, or only when some factors are not taken into account)
"Even though arguably they are a less valid choice for use as a race bike, they are still quite popular" 'Quite' as in 'not very', presumably. And 'arguably' as 'I accept'.
"many Titanium frames have very classic designs that should not date in quite the same way that the ‘bang up to date styles of the moment’ may do." ie because of the welds needed and that the tubes need to be 'tubes' titanium frames look like frames of old (obviously they won't "date" - the design is perforce already dated), and can be enjoyed and valued by those who appreciate that style.
*"Frame material conclusion :*, Opinion is often much divided when it comes to frame materials and if it effects how the bike rides or not. Many will state that they can tell a huge difference and by the same token many will state that the frame material makes no difference at all. I would say I fall somewhere between both, I have ridden a huge variety over the years, when riding bikes similar in set up in nearly every respect apart from the frame material I would say that I can't tell a huge difference, but I can feel more than none that's for sure, a slight difference it may be, yet significant enough to play a part in my decision making when choosing a new frame."
'Yes' I fancy a titanium bike but I'd like to rely on good reasons, not marketing hype. I doubt I am alone. And 'yes' Pete, your titanium bike looked very smart - on the way into Moffat iirc. But my 531 frame has done me proud recently.


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## Hedgemonkey (17 Mar 2018)

This is precisely my conundrum, whilst my steel frame is a not the lightest in my stable, it is the most comfortable to ride. A titanium purchase will more than likely be made with very unscientific reasons, I just think it will be nice to own one.


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## ianrauk (17 Mar 2018)

Hedgemonkey said:


> This is precisely my conundrum, whilst my steel frame is a not the lightest in my stable, it is the most comfortable to ride. A titanium purchase will more than likely be made with very unscientific reasons, I just think it will be nice to own one.




..and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.


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## StuAff (17 Mar 2018)

ianrauk said:


> ..and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.


Indeed so.


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## airborneal (17 Mar 2018)

I can remember Lotto Adecco riding Litespeed Vortex bikes in 2002, interesting reads below. Rob McKewan won the TDF green jersey on one.
I've got two Airborne frames, one Lancer & Zeppelin. Love Titanium myself. Not sure which frameset to build and which to sell

http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/comment/icons-cycling-litespeed-vortex-311140

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/tech/2002/features/probikes/lotto.shtml


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## PpPete (17 Mar 2018)

Ajax Bay said:


> Are you casting nasturtiums on the knowledge of posters on this thread?.


Not all - It was a back handed 'dig' at the individual you quoted in one of your posts....



Ajax Bay said:


> Paul Smith's CV says he has been heavily into titanium frames and selling them to riders for the last 17 years. But he's still riding steel..


Paul may well own a steel bike, but he certainly has at least two Ti bikes.... that's his own Van Nic Yukon in the pictures on the page you link to.

I'm quite prepared to believe that some of the bespoke high-spec steel frames are better than mass-produced titanium, but that's not really comparing apples with apples. I love riding both my 531 bikes, but at the risk of repeating myself, neither is as comfortable nor as quick as the titanium.


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## bigjim (17 Mar 2018)

I don't think it is possible to catergorically state one frame material is better than another. There are just so many variables to affect ones decision. Tyres, wheels, saddle, frame design and of course rider weight. People talk about smoothness. How does one define that? All my bikes are steel. I've stayed away from aluminium because of it's reputation for harshness. Recently I bought for silly money a as new Aluminium framed bike. I bought it for the parts. I thought I would ride it around for a while. Hell! It is so smooth! I really enjoy it. It's good fun, very responsive and I've used it all through the winter for local and all day club rides. Maybe my almost 15 stone frame smooths things out. My steel bikes feel softer not smoother. Hard to describe. I ride full carbon in Mallorca which are great, but no better IMO, than my 531 steel road bikes. Anyway my bottom of the range smooth cheapo even has Ali forks. Ridiculous! Why isn't it a bone-jarring mess?


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## Paul_Smith SRCC (18 Mar 2018)

The saying "the sum of the parts" springs to mind.

Aluminium Alloy, Steel, Carbon and Titanium frames can all be designed for different types of bikes; get that design correct and finish it with the appropriate component choice then they should perform adequately in each role. Many will argue that Aluminium Alloy framed bikes can result in a harsh ride, but you can tune the frame geometry to offer more comfort, tube shapes, tube profiles and design features like Trek's Iso Speed decoupler can influence comfort, as can larger tyres and a more conservative bike fit, all are valid considerations. Focusing on the riding experience, how much difference each frame material makes for many is down to 'perception'; 'no difference' to one rider maybe a 'deal breaking difference' to another. As an analogy give me the highest quality tennis racket, snooker cue or set of darts and then a more budget but quality version of each and to me they'd probably feel all the same as their higher quality counterparts; I would not have the experience to tell the difference.

As referenced up thread I have two 10 year old Titanium bikes and four steel all aged between 20-30 years old. I like them all for different reasons, as all achieve what they are set up to do. My Titanium Van Nicholas Yukon and my winter steel fixed are the two I use the most, the latter simply because it's my commute bike, the former as it is by far my favourite bike to ride. My Yukon offers the perfect blend of super smooth comfortable ride, performance and light luggage carrying capabilities that suit my type of cycling. The riding experience is not the only consideration, for me personally I am influenced by robustness, aesthetics, price, and desire to name but four. I use my Titanium Yukon for touring and yes the riding experience played a massive part in why I chose it, but it doesn't lead a precious life, so the robustness was an attraction, as was having no paint to chip!

Referencing 'desire' to quote 'Hedgemonkey' "A titanium purchase will more than likely be made with very unscientific reasons, I just think it will be nice to own one"; for many a bicycle is not just a tool to go cycling on it's something they find pleasure in owning; something they buy with their heart as well as their head. I am someone who doesn't 'treat' myself very much on every level, as you can see from how long I've had them that includes my bicycles! But, this was an occasion my desire for wanting them was so great that I indulged and treated myself. In someways the fact that I do that so rarely makes it more special when I actually do. My Yukon reminds me of holidays and the life affirming memories that often go with them. I adore how it looks, I adore how it performs and I adore how it makes me feel.

I keep my two Titanium bikes in my bedroom, I love cycling and I love bicycles, they are my two wheeled friends, I smile every time I look at them and every time I ride them. So in conclusion 'Hedgemonkey' when I take into consideration the sum of their parts, "Is Titanium really worth the extra cost over a nice good steel frame", for me *personally; *yes it was.


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## froze (19 Mar 2018)

dan_bo said:


> are you less than 11 stone? then yes.



that is a nonsense answer, 154 pounds is what you think a titanium bike maximum rider weight limit is? get real man, I've seen clydesdales riding titanium, in fact titanium will hold up better with a heavy rider then CF will! There was only one titanium bike that had a low rider weight that was made and that was back in the early 80's with small tubed titanium, which I think the weight limit was 180 not 154, modern TI bikes are rated far greater than that, in fact the current lightest weight TI bike made is the Everti Eagle which has a 200 pound rider limit and that's for a 11.4 pound bike fully loaded, but what I don't know is if that rider limit is based on the frame or the Enve Composite wheels.

Moving on. Titanium is an excellent life long lasting frame material, it can out last CF and AL, and maybe even steel assuming no steel rust. It's also very comfortable to ride on, the TI tubing takes harsh road impacts and mutes it down better than steel or CF does, and smaller road imperfections that causes buzz is also muted similar to what CF does with the small stuff. TI does not corrode or rust, if you scratch it you can buff the scratch out, it's very durable, watch this video: 
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0eP-6j8d6s
The problem with TI is finding a competent frame builder, in the hands of a poor one and TI can break, but most of that have been resolved over the years even the low costing TI bikes out of ORA (they make the Motobecane TI frames) are made really well. I personally like Lynskey the best, it's what I got after much studying, Lynskey was the original owner of Litespeed and he pioneered a lot of manufacturing firsts that are now used by almost every TI builder in the world, so I put his experience up on a higher level than anyone else.


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## greenmark (19 Mar 2018)

froze said:


> that is a nonsense answer, 154 pounds is what you think a titanium bike maximum rider weight limit is? get real man, I've seen clydesdales riding titanium, in fact titanium will hold up better with a heavy rider then CF will! There was only one titanium bike that had a low rider weight that was made and that was back in the early 80's with small tubed titanium, which I think the weight limit was 180 not 154, modern TI bikes are rated far greater than that, in fact the current lightest weight TI bike made is the Everti Eagle which has a 200 pound rider limit and that's for a 11.4 pound bike fully loaded, but what I don't know is if that rider limit is based on the frame or the Enve Composite wheels.
> 
> Moving on. Titanium is an excellent life long lasting frame material, it can out last CF and AL, and maybe even steel assuming no steel rust. It's also very comfortable to ride on, the TI tubing takes harsh road impacts and mutes it down better than steel or CF does, and smaller road imperfections that causes buzz is also muted similar to what CF does with the small stuff. TI does not corrode or rust, if you scratch it you can buff the scratch out, it's very durable, watch this video:
> View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0eP-6j8d6s
> The problem with TI is finding a competent frame builder, in the hands of a poor one and TI can break, but most of that have been resolved over the years even the low costing TI bikes out of ORA (they make the Motobecane TI frames) are made really well. I personally like Lynskey the best, it's what I got after much studying, Lynskey was the original owner of Litespeed and he pioneered a lot of manufacturing firsts that are now used by almost every TI builder in the world, so I put his experience up on a higher level than anyone else.







I think that the durability of Ti is overstated. A lot of the myth of titanium’s lifespan came from when Ti frames were being sold as indestructible back in the 90s. Since then they’re no longer being sold as such.


If well-made then Ti frames have excellent fatigue life. But the problem is that it’s difficult to tell if they are made well and issues might only arise much much later, by which time it is difficult to prove that cracks came from a manufacturing defect.


Manufacturers now realise Ti has a limited lifespan and so don’t offer lifetime warranties for fatigue. Enigma only does 10 years. Kinesis is only 3 years. Moots and Seven cycles specifically excludes fatigue from their warranty. Van Nicholas, Litespeed and Lynskey say their warranties are for the “lifetime of the frame” – that means warranty is valid until the frame breaks.


Ti frames tend to be better than other materials on impact resistance and in letting you buff out scratches. But as for fatigue, don’t assume that Ti is a bike for life.


Disclaimer: My only bike is a Lynskey.


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## Ajax Bay (19 Mar 2018)

froze said:


> the TI tubing takes harsh road impacts and mutes it down better than steel or CF does


What are the physical characteristics of titanium alloy tubing which "mutes" the "harsh road impacts" (more than any other frame material)? Or is it frame design? If the latter, would a frame made of steel (say) to the same design (geometry) be better or worse; and why?


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## Heltor Chasca (19 Mar 2018)

Is it me? Or am I without any level of feeling? Two steel bikes, a Ti and an aluminium hardtail. I know I have spent ages fitting them to my size and riding style, but I’ve got to say I would never describe my ali bike as harsh or stiff. I can ride it all day and still feel good.

Geometry these days seems so well thought out that it wouldn’t surprise me if they have designed Ali frames to compensate for the metal’s characteristics to make the ride a pleasure. The science is beyond the likes of me though.

How much of the criticism on ride/material/metal character is based on what ‘the crowd’ says? And not on how it REALLY feels?


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## Hedgemonkey (19 Mar 2018)

Some fair points there about design and use, and as cyclists i would like to think, that we are a slightly away from " the crowd " and hopefully tend to question mass media indoctrines. But we do seem to order "toasted tea cakes"


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## PpPete (19 Mar 2018)

Ajax Bay said:


> What are the physical characteristics of titanium alloy tubing which "mutes" the "harsh road impacts" (more than any other frame material)? Or is it frame design? If the latter, would a frame made of steel (say) to the same design (geometry) be better or worse; and why?


I think I'm right in saying the Young's Modulus of titanium is behind a lot of the difference here. That's to say that for a given size and shape of sample, and a given load, the titanium deflects more than steel or aluminium (but still springs back when the load is removed).
I suspect that if you made a frame out of the most commonly used Titanium alloy (3% Aluminium, 2.5% Vanadium) but with exactly the same tube diameters and wall thicknesses as a good frame builder might use for, say, a Reynolds 531 frame; the titanium frame would be impossibly 'noodley'.
Conversely, a frame made from Reynolds or Columbus tubing, but to the same dimensions as a Ti frame would be very harsh, and if it had the same tubing wall thicknesses would be rather heavy.


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## Smokin Joe (19 Mar 2018)

There is only one material that matters on a frame, and that's the enamel they slap on the tubes. They can make this fecker out of anything they like and I'd still want one -


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## Ajax Bay (20 Mar 2018)

PpPete said:


> the Young's Modulus of titanium is behind a lot of the difference here. That's to say that for a given size and shape of sample, and a given load, the titanium deflects more than steel or aluminium (but still springs back when the load is removed).


The various YMs are: Aluminium = 69 GPa, Titanium = 110 GPa and steel = 210 GPa. So if that's the physical characteristic 'behind a lot of the difference' either Al or steel should be 'better': Ti can't be; well not if amount of deflection is the issue.

When considering the options for frame material I think it's sensible to compare bikes/frames at a similar price point. One may pay more for the frame and accept poorer components (in this context wheels, tyres, seat post and bars) or vice versa. A titanium framed bike will bury more, proportionately, in the frame.

Quoting from the other (2016) thread: "as for its shock-absorption properties. Those are non-existent. A double-diamond frame bike is essentially an inflexible truss that does not absorb shock due to its shape. It cannot be distorted (not enough to soak up bumps in anyway), so that is a myth. Most shock absorption properties of bikes and tyres are a psychological by-product of the acoustic feedback from the bike/tyres." I'd be keen to hear someone explain why this isn't correct, and why. You'd think the cycle industry would have done research and shared it, explaining why some frame materials are better than others, and why. I have looked, but not successfully.
I think we're looking for properties affecting shock-attenuation (rather than absorption) btw (they may be the same) but particularly the damping effect on vibrations of different materials.


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## Ian H (20 Mar 2018)

Ajax Bay said:


> Quoting from the other (2016) thread: "as for its shock-absorption properties. Those are non-existent. A double-diamond frame bike is essentially an inflexible truss that does not absorb shock due to its shape. It cannot be distorted (not enough to soak up bumps in anyway), so that is a myth. Most shock absorption properties of bikes and tyres are a psychological by-product of the acoustic feedback from the bike/tyres." I'd be keen to hear someone explain why this isn't correct, and why. You'd think the cycle industry would have done research and shared it, explaining why some frame materials are better than others, and why. I have looked, but not successfully.
> I think we're looking for properties affecting shock-attenuation (rather than absorption) btw (they may be the same) but particularly the damping effect on vibrations of different materials.



New materials tend to enter the chain in competition bikes with steep angles, short wheelbases, and narrow tyres on stiff wheels. This may affect perceptions of how they perform in terms of 'comfort'.


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## PpPete (20 Mar 2018)

Ajax Bay said:


> The various YMs are: Aluminium = 69 GPa, Titanium = 110 GPa and steel = 210 GPa. So if that's the physical characteristic 'behind a lot of the difference' either Al or steel should be 'better': Ti can't be; well not if amount of deflection is the issue.


That's me remembering it wrong then. Can't find the textbook in which I thought I'd read the supporting evidence.


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## Ajax Bay (20 Mar 2018)

"laterally stiff yet vertically compliant"
"this bike climbs like a monkey in a set of crampons, descends like a monkey in a set of crampons being dropped from a helicopter, handles corners like a prostitute, and accelerates like a particle in a particle accelerator that itself is just a tiny particle in a giant particle accelerator. Overall, the effect is like sitting in a caffe in a trendy Milan street while sipping a cappuccino and wearing fabulous clothes yet inexplicably traveling at or close to the speed of light. Pure Italian class."
Contributors to this thread might like this article: bikesnob-2008-dream-bike-shootout, - though regrettably, the shootout didn't include a bike with a frame made of titanium.


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## Venod (20 Mar 2018)

Ajax Bay said:


> the shootout didn't include a bike with a frame made of titanium



If you want to drool over some Ti follow this link.

http://road.cc/content/feature/213004-terrific-titanium-14-loveliest-titanium-road-bikes-weve-ridden


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## Ian H (20 Mar 2018)

I have two Ti frames, fixed and gears. I put their rideability down to the design rather than the material. In fact I'm convinced that if someone made frames with identical measurements out of steel or any other material, and asked me to ride them blindfolded, I'd fall off.


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## Paul_Smith SRCC (25 Mar 2018)

Ian H said:


> I have two Ti frames, fixed and gears.....


My fixed wheel bike was in my youth my go to bike, club runs, commute bike, even touring. I was much much fitter and healthier back then, these days I still use my fixed for commuting but that's all. It's 30 years old and I'm struggling now with the drop and reach to the bars, plus when I remove the BB a somewhat alarming amount of rust tumbles out so I am well aware that either 'it' or 'me' will at some time no longer be able to cope!

As and when I have to replace it I must admit I am in two minds as to how much I indulge and treat myself. If I keep to a budget then in steel I do quite like the Genesis Flyer, I can get just the 'fit' I need plus it takes guards and light luggage. But, I do have something of a desire for something custom in Titanium (based on my Van Nicholas Yukon), much more of an investment but I've not had a new bike in over 10 years and in short I want one; I don't deserve it but I don't care, I need it like I neeeeeeeeed chocolate....


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## Alan O (25 Mar 2018)

Paul_Smith SRCC said:


> My fixed wheel bike was in my youth my go to bike, club runs, commute bike, even touring. I was much much fitter and healthier back then, these days I still use my fixed for commuting but that's all. It's 30 years old and I'm struggling now with the drop and reach to the bars, plus when I remove the BB a somewhat alarming amount of rust tumbles out so I am well aware that either 'it' or 'me' will at some time no longer be able to cope!
> View attachment 401469


It would be a shame to have to part with such a beautiful looking bike. A shorter/higher stem perhaps? And don't worry about the rust until it starts showing through on the outside? 



Paul_Smith SRCC said:


> As and when I have to replace it I must admit I am in two minds as to how much I indulge and treat myself. If I keep to a budget then in steel I do quite like the Genesis Flyer, I can get just the 'fit' I need plus it takes guards and light luggage. But, I do have something of a desire for something custom in Titanium (based on my Van Nicholas Yukon), much more of an investment but I've not had a new bike in over 10 years and in short I want one; I don't deserve it but I don't care, I need it like I neeeeeeeeed chocolate....
> View attachment 401467
> 
> View attachment 401468


I must disagree with you on this one - you *do* deserve a new bike


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## Paul_Smith SRCC (25 Mar 2018)

Alan O said:


> It would be a shame to have to part with such a beautiful looking bike. A shorter/higher stem perhaps...


I agree, I think it's a lovely bike, Dave Yates was the builder for Pearson back then. I have two, one set up as that red fixed and another in blue with gears shown below during the Kent Castle 100.




Before I used my Yukon for tours I used that red bike, my Yukon was in effect a frame swap, I used many of the components off the red 'Pearson' that I had used for Lejog, Channel to the Med', London to Paris and Corsica, the latter had the Campagnolo gears and TA chain set that all got transferred across.

Since that picture I've replaced the stem with another 1cm shorter, I can probably go another cm shorter in time. I confess I felt a sense of guilt talking about replacing it; I've just said 'sorry' to it as I cleaned it ready for my commute tomorrow


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## Ian H (25 Mar 2018)

Paul_Smith SRCC said:


> As and when I have to replace it I must admit I am in two minds as to how much I indulge and treat myself.



I always thought of fixed-wheel as what you did with your old road frame. But long drop-outs fell out of fashion and usable frames were becoming older and rarer. 

I was planning to ride the 2015 Paris-Brest on fixed. so decided to go for it and specify a new frame. Only one company seemed to want to supply proper road drop-outs, so they got the job (Qoroz, who appear to have ceased trading). Measurements were based on my comfortable old Omega, and the result rides very well.


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## Paul_Smith SRCC (27 Mar 2018)

Ian H said:


> I always thought of fixed-wheel as what you did with your old road frame. But long drop-outs fell out of fashion and usable frames were becoming older and rarer.
> 
> I was planning to ride the 2015 Paris-Brest on fixed. so decided to go for it and specify a new frame. Only one company seemed to want to supply proper road drop-outs, so they got the job (Qoroz, who appear to have ceased trading). Measurements were based on my comfortable old Omega, and the result rides very well.


That's exactly what my fixed is, a traditional horizontal road drop out, works perfectly especially with guards as the wheel removal is easier than with a track drop out.

About ten years ago Van Nicholas did start using horizontal dropouts on the Yukon for a while for this reason as the 'fixed wheel' market was coming back into fashion and few bikes current at the time could take a fixed set up with full mudguards; the Pearson Touche had proved there was a demand for a bike that could offer both. Although I pushed for this amendment and for that very reason, Van Nicholas felt that the majority preferred a dropout that held the wheel in place more securely.


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## GuyBoden (28 Mar 2018)

Is it easy to weld Titanium?


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## Paul_Smith SRCC (28 Mar 2018)

GuyBoden said:


> Is it easy to weld Titanium?
> View attachment 401859


Titanium is arguably the opposite of easy to weld.

Enigma make their signature range here in the UK and often undertake repairs; Max and Joe are first class craftsmen, they rival any work I have seen; I worked there for three years and can assure you how fastidious they are. That looks like a failure at a common stress point, I would imagine that if they had the frame in their workshop they would suggest new stays-rear triangle, simply welding over that crack may not a long term fix.


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## Soltydog (28 Mar 2018)

Paul_Smith SRCC said:


> Enigma make their signature range here in the UK and often undertake repairs; Max and Joe are first class craftsmen, they rival any work I have seen; I worked there for three years and can assure you how fastidious they are.



You'd have no hesitation in recommending them then? Top of my list for N+1 at the mo


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## FishFright (28 Mar 2018)

Ajax Bay said:


> The various YMs are: Aluminium = 69 GPa, Titanium = 110 GPa and steel = 210 GPa. So if that's the physical characteristic 'behind a lot of the difference' either Al or steel should be 'better': Ti can't be; well not if amount of deflection is the issue.
> 
> When considering the options for frame material I think it's sensible to compare bikes/frames at a similar price point. One may pay more for the frame and accept poorer components (in this context wheels, tyres, seat post and bars) or vice versa. A titanium framed bike will bury more, proportionately, in the frame.
> 
> ...



Really ? I'd like to see the peer reviewed literature on this one because it goes against what a frame builder / designer told me .


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## Paul_Smith SRCC (29 Mar 2018)

Soltydog said:


> You'd have no hesitation in recommending them then? Top of my list for N+1 at the mo


There are quite a few Titanium brands worthy of consideration, Enigma are definitely one of them. Other brands popular and readily available in the UK worth considering are Genesis, J Guillem, Kinesis, Lynskey, Sabbath and Van Nicholas. 

Although they are the most readily available there are plenty to choose from, brands like Baum, Boardman, Moots, Planet X, Ribble, Reilly, Spa, Varuu to name just a few!


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## Soltydog (29 Mar 2018)

Paul_Smith SRCC said:


> There are quite a few Titanium brands worthy of consideration, Enigma are definitely one of them. Other brands popular and readily available in the UK worth considering are Genesis, J Guillem, Kinesis, Lynskey, Sabbath and Van Nicholas.
> 
> Although they are the most readily available there are plenty to choose from, brands like Baum, Boardman, Moots, Planet X, Ribble, Reilly, Spa, Varuu to name just a few!



At 6'5" I may be going bespoke. Some of the above mentioned brands are a little small on their sizing for me  & the warranties on some are quite limited. One of the listed offers an 8 year warranty, but will only replace the bike once during that period, when you read the small print  This will be a 'once' in a lifetime purchase for me, so would like a reassuring warranty & a UK company would be a bonus for me too


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## Paul_Smith SRCC (29 Mar 2018)

Soltydog said:


> At 6'5" I may be going bespoke. Some of the above mentioned brands are a little small on their sizing for me  & the warranties on some are quite limited. One of the listed offers an 8 year warranty, but will only replace the bike once during that period, when you read the small print  This will be a 'once' in a lifetime purchase for me, so would like a reassuring warranty & a UK company would be a bonus for me too


At 6'5" yes that is probably near the limit for an off the peg frame-bike, each manufacturer should be able to advise if your bike fit will work on whatever model you may be considering. If the conclusion is that you do need to go custom then many of those I have listed will offer bespoke, even though they may not actively promote it. Of the popular brands I listed for a surcharge Van Nicholas and Enigma definitely do, as I imagine would Baum, Reilly, Spa and Varuu.

When they know what bike fit data they need to accommodate most will be able to show you how the custom design will match that 'fit' on a BikeCAD drawing, an example as below.


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## Ajax Bay (30 Mar 2018)

* "A double-diamond frame bike is essentially an inflexible truss that does not absorb shock due to its shape. It cannot be distorted (not enough to soak up bumps in anyway)*, so that is a myth." I'd be keen to hear someone explain why this isn't correct, and why. You'd think the cycle industry would have done research and shared it.


FishFright said:


> Really ? I'd like to see the peer reviewed literature on this one because it goes against what a frame builder / designer told me .


If you'd like to see the 'peer-reviewed literature' on this, please find it and share it. As I said, "I'd be keen to hear someone explain why this isn't correct, and why" (the original quote is not mine but I can see why it may be true). (Perhaps 'a frame builder/designer' could help with the science/research which would back up what he/she told you.


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## FishFright (30 Mar 2018)

Ajax Bay said:


> * "A double-diamond frame bike is essentially an inflexible truss that does not absorb shock due to its shape. It cannot be distorted (not enough to soak up bumps in anyway)*, so that is a myth." I'd be keen to hear someone explain why this isn't correct, and why. You'd think the cycle industry would have done research and shared it.
> 
> If you'd like to see the 'peer-reviewed literature' on this, please find it and share it. As I said, "I'd be keen to hear someone explain why this isn't correct, and why" (the original quote is not mine but I can see why it may be true). (Perhaps 'a frame builder/designer' could help with the science/research which would back up what he/she told you.



I am genuinely interested that's why asked you


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## Ajax Bay (30 Mar 2018)

Genuinely interested x 2. 
Extracts from "Bicycle Frame" Wikipedia:
"Stiffness (or elastic modulus) can in theory affect the ride comfort and power transmission efficiency. In practice, because even a very flexible frame is much more stiff than the tires and saddle, ride comfort is ultimately more a factor of saddle choice, frame geometry, tire choice, and bicycle fit. Lateral stiffness is far more difficult to achieve because of the narrow profile of a frame, and too much flexibility can affect power transmission, primarily through tire scrub on the road due to rear triangle distortion, brakes rubbing on the rims and the chain rubbing on gear mechanisms."

"While many riders claim that steel frames give a smoother ride than aluminum because aluminum frames are designed to be stiffer, that claim is of questionable validity: the bicycle frame itself is extremely stiff vertically because it is made of triangles. Conversely, this very argument calls the claim of aluminum frames having greater vertical stiffness into question."

"Titanium is perhaps the most exotic and expensive metal commonly used for bicycle frame tubes. It combines many desirable characteristics, including a high strength to weight ratio and excellent corrosion resistance. Reasonable stiffness (roughly half that of steel) allows for many titanium frames to be constructed with "standard" tube sizes comparable to a traditional steel frame, although larger diameter tubing is becoming more common for more stiffness. Titanium is more difficult to machine than steel or aluminum, which sometimes limits its uses and also raises the effort (and cost) associated with this type of construction."

and from Sheldon:

*Vertical stiffness*
"(Since this article deals with frames, the issue at hand is road shock transmitted from the rear tire to the saddle. Ride qualities experienced at the handlebars are to a large extent determined by the fork, as well as geometry, and flex in other bolt-on parts, but are unrelated to the choice of frame material.)
Much of the commonplace B.S. that is talked about different frame materials relates to imagined differences in vertical stiffness. It will be said that one frame has a comfy ride and absorbs road shocks, while another is alleged to be harsh and make you feel every crack in the pavement. Virtually all of these "differences" are either the imaginary result of the placebo effect, or are caused by something other than the frame material choice.

"Bumps are transmitted from the rear tire patch, through the tire, the wheel, the seatstays, the seatpost, the saddle frame, and the saddle top. All these parts deflect to a greater or lesser extent when you hit a bump, but not to an equal extent.

"The greatest degree of flex is in the tire; probably the second greatest is the saddle itself. If you have a lot of seatpost sticking out of a small frame, there's noticeable flex in the seatpost. The shock-absorbing qualities of good-quality wheels are negligible...and now we get to the seat stays. The seat stays (the only part of this system that is actually part of the frame) are loaded in pure, in-line compression. In this direction, they are so stiff, even the lightest and thinnest ones, that they can contribute nothing worth mentioning to shock absorbency.

"The only place that frame flex can be reasonably supposed to contribute anything at all to "suspension" is that, if you have a long exposed seatpost that doesn't run too deep into the seat tube, the bottom end of the seatpost may cause the top of the seat tube to bow very slightly. Even this compliance is only a fraction of the flex of the exposed length of the seatpost."


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## Mr Celine (30 Mar 2018)

Ajax Bay said:


> * "A double-diamond frame bike is essentially an inflexible truss that does not absorb shock due to its shape. It cannot be distorted (not enough to soak up bumps in anyway)*, so that is a myth."



Hooke's law. Stress is proportional to strain. If the frame is stressed by a bump in the road, it must strain accordingly. Here's another infexible truss, the deck of the Forth Road Bridge, which under load can clearly be seen to be flexible. 





Whether or not you'd notice the deflection on a bike frame is a different question.


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## Ajax Bay (30 Mar 2018)

Just so I'm clear: you're agreeing with the quote (as in 'does not absorb shock' [in the vertical plane]); right?


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## jowwy (31 Mar 2018)

Thought this thread was about buying a titanium frame.....quite a lot gone hugely off topic


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## Smokin Joe (31 Mar 2018)

Anyone else just go by the colour and don't give a stuff what it's made of?


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## ianrauk (31 Mar 2018)

Smokin Joe said:


> Anyone else just go by the colour and don't give a stuff what it's made of?




One of the main reasons I bought a Ti bike is because it has no colour, just bare metal. I also took off all the graphics. My Van Nick is just a plain metallic looking frame.
I am also toying with the idea of stripping down a painted Alu frame to the bare metal but I am guessing that you would need some sort of protectorate over the frame to stop it from rusting.


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## Venod (31 Mar 2018)

ianrauk said:


> I am also toying with the idea of stripping down a painted Alu frame to the bare metal but I am guessing that you would need some sort of protectorate over the frame to stop it from rusting.



I had a Genesis MTB that was bare aluminium it just had a clear lacquer coat for protection, it looked very nice, but the lacquer did start peeling which spoilt its appearance.


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## Pale Rider (31 Mar 2018)

ianrauk said:


> One of the main reasons I bought a Ti bike is because it has no colour, just bare metal. I also took off all the graphics. My Van Nick is just a plain metallic looking frame.
> I am also toying with the idea of stripping down a painted Alu frame to the bare metal but I am guessing that you would need some sort of protectorate over the frame to stop it from rusting.



My understanding is aluminium 'rusts' in the sense a naked tube will form an oxide, which has the look of a light, almost powdery, coating.

What it won't do is 'rust through' like steel.

I reckon your bare ally bike would work, but you might not be keen on the look of it.


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## Bonefish Blues (31 Mar 2018)

Pale Rider said:


> My understanding is aluminium 'rusts' in the sense a naked tube will form an oxide, which has the look of a light, almost powdery, coating.
> 
> *What it won't do is 'rust through' like steel.*
> 
> I reckon your bare ally bike would work, but you might not be keen on the look of it.


Tell that to my aluminium trowel I left in a bag of fertilizer by mistake. Fair ate it


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## Pale Rider (31 Mar 2018)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Tell that to my aluminium trowel I left in a bag of fertilizer by mistake. Fair ate it



It might depend on constitution of the 'aluminium' and what it is alloyed with.

I had a hand in building a modsports racing car years ago, largely from sheets of what we called aluminium, held together with hundreds of pop rivets.

The sheets lasted for years and never rusted even though they were left bare.


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## Bonefish Blues (31 Mar 2018)

Pale Rider said:


> It might depend on constitution of the 'aluminium' and what it is alloyed with.
> 
> I had a hand in building a modsports racing car years ago, largely from sheets of what we called aluminium, held together with hundreds of pop rivets.
> 
> The sheets lasted for years and never rusted even though they were left bare.


I agree - I have seen "aluminium" which has just crumbled away to powder, whereas I thought that the oxidised layer protected the metal from further corrosion.


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## Pale Rider (31 Mar 2018)

Bonefish Blues said:


> I agree - I have seen "aluminium" which has just crumbled away to powder, whereas I thought that the oxidised layer protected the metal from further corrosion.


 
I understood the same, the oxidised layer is the 'rust', but it has a protective effect.

Thus people will say an aluminium car body 'doesn't rust' because you won't see holes appear in the panels.


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## Ajax Bay (31 Mar 2018)

Hedgemonkey said:


> Is Titanium really worth the extra cost over a nice good steel frame, or are we just considering bling value.





jowwy said:


> Thought this thread was about buying a titanium frame.....quite a lot gone hugely off topic


I refer the honourable member to the first sentence of the OP. Very few posters have offered an answer to that question.


ianrauk said:


> the idea of stripping down a painted Alu frame to the bare metal


My '81 ALAN is 'bare (brushed?) aluminium' tubes (no decals), glued and screwed into cast aluminium lugs (with Nuovo Record derailleurs and SR Apex chainset 50-40). When I bought it in '83 I'm sure the publican I bought it off said it was titanium alloy but several years later I discovered that that was well before titanium's time (although I suspect the way the frame was fastened to together could have been used with titanium tubes (the aluminium tubes were the same size (external diameter) as 'normal' steel frame (tubes).
The aluminium tubes seem to have no apparent lacquer finish or any 'oxidation'.


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## Alan O (31 Mar 2018)

Aluminium can be anodized, which provides a surface that is hardier and more resistant to corrosion - I think it effectively produces a cleaner, thicker and tougher oxide film than would happen by normal exposure to air and moisture.

I've no idea if it's used for bike frames or if it's the reason why some apparently untreated frames have lasted well, but I thought I'd throw it in in case it's relevant.

Wikipedia's take on it is at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anodizing.


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## dnrc (15 Apr 2018)

ianrauk said:


> One of the main reasons I bought a Ti bike is because it has no colour, just bare metal. I also took off all the graphics. My Van Nick is just a plain metallic looking frame.



Exactly what I did to my van nic euros. Looks fantastic.

I have 2 titanium bikes, there are various arguments for stiffness, lightness blah blah.

I bought them mainly because they look absolutely beautiful.


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## Steve T (15 Apr 2018)

I've got 2 Ti Bikes both bought at a reasonable price second hand - both fantastic machines and definitely have a 'bling' factor but I'm not sure either offers much over the carbon bikes I've owned though and seem to command a hefty premium for it.


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