# Sparky advice.



## Milzy (18 Oct 2022)

I’m getting two new ovens in a new kitchen in a few weeks. Cables probably 10mm need to run a short distance through the roof from the main consumer unit board. 
The worry is my consumer unit is made out of plastic and is about 17 years old. I’ve heard new regs mean you should have a metal box now? 
Do I need a new box for the electrician to sign off my hob & oven?


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## Phaeton (18 Oct 2022)

I don't think there is anything that says you must for existing CU's but new instals I believe have to be metal, but as this will fall under Part P minimum ask the person who is going to sign it off.

Although all this Part P, NICC & the rest of them as just a con


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## jowwy (18 Oct 2022)

Milzy said:


> I’m getting two new ovens in a new kitchen in a few weeks. Cables probably 10mm need to run a short distance through the roof from the main consumer unit board.
> The worry is my consumer unit is made out of plastic and is about 17 years old. I’ve heard new regs mean you should have a metal box now?
> Do I need a new box for the electrician to sign off my hob & oven?



If im not mistaken, doesnt it need to be metal if placed near an exit to the property???

Also if people have to do retrofits every time a new reg came out, then no house would be valid


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## Cycleops (18 Oct 2022)

I should be led by your electrician, he'll know what the standard required is now.


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## si_c (18 Oct 2022)

Unless there is insufficient space in the CU then they won't change it, the regs apply to new installations, re-wires or replacements where unsafe. An existing CU is covered by the regs in place at the time of installation.

This is why you can have the old CUs with wired fuses still in place in older buildings. The exception to this is I believe for certain appliances such as EVs which may require a particular breaker type in which case the CU may need replacing, although I'm not a electrician so take that with a huge dose of salt.


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## slowmotion (18 Oct 2022)

Cycleops said:


> I should be led by your electrician, he'll know what the standard required is now.



Ahem. Let me fix that for you.....

......." he'll know how to fool you into spending a lot more money by giving bogus advice about The Regs."


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## Milzy (18 Oct 2022)

I’m getting an EV charger in next year so may need to re do the mains wires anyway. A sparky I used to work with said if it was him he’d keep the old plastic box. The metal box reg is supposed to stop firemen breathing plastic fumes in. They already have air masks on & theres other plastics burning besides. Joke man.


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## I like Skol (18 Oct 2022)

Looks like you have the same/similar consumer unit as me (installed in 2012-13 as part of a property extension project) and you appear to have two spare slots that would take a couple of 16A breakers to feed your ovens.

Not familiar with regulations, but can't see any practical reason why your existing CU won't be adequate for the cooker upgrade.


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## Lozz360 (18 Oct 2022)

You will probably need a bit more than 16A supplies for ovens. I guess you already knew that as you mentioned 10mm cables. It’s correct that you won’t need to replace the CU just because it is plastic. It’s new installs that need to be metal. You have two spare ways at 7 & 8, so you should be OK for the two additions. You already have a supply marked “cooker”. Does this mean you will have three ovens installed? Is this a dwelling or a cafe? Just curious.


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## I like Skol (18 Oct 2022)

I would be surprised if the individual ovens suck more than can be supplied by a 16A breaker. I stand to be corrected.


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## Lozz360 (19 Oct 2022)

You are correct in that if they are just ovens with no hobs then 16A should suffice. But when people refer to an oven they mean an oven combined with a hob. Or at least that’s what I pictured.


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## si_c (19 Oct 2022)

Also depends on the size of the ovens, a double oven might need a 32A or 50A breaker.


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## lazybloke (19 Oct 2022)

I think a decent induction hob draws more like 40 amps.

My dual electric oven range thing only draws 13 amps, and has a standard plug. 
Edit: it has a gas hob , otherwise it would draw more current.


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## cosmicbike (19 Oct 2022)

Standard ovens are 13A or less. Good practice for ovens is a fixed supply via fused connection units (fused spurs), switched or unswitched your choice. For me I'd be having a single 10mm feed from a 32A breaker, split out behind the ovens into a pair of FCU's fused at 13A each, one for each oven.
Any electrician installing a single new circuit into an existing installation is responsible for that circuit only. They may have a view on your current DB being 'non-compliant' with latest Regs (18th Edition), but cannot make you replace it. 
If you are getting an EV install next year then I would ask your electrician to check your head fuse, if it's 80A you are pushing your luck even with diversity, so you may need to have a natter with your DNO for a 100A upgrade.


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## fossyant (19 Oct 2022)

Ah, the cheeky buggers buying MIL's house have said the CU isn't up to current specs - it won't be, as was put in over 20 years ago - hmm trying to get us to cough up for a new one.


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## Phaeton (19 Oct 2022)

fossyant said:


> Ah, the cheeky buggers buying MIL's house have said the CU isn't up to current specs - it won't be, as was put in over 20 years ago - hmm trying to get us to cough up for a new one.



We're in the process of selling my wife's aunts house, they moved in new in the 50's I'm expecting a few of those type of queries.


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## fossyant (19 Oct 2022)

Phaeton said:


> We're in the process of selling my wife's aunts house, they moved in new in the 50's I'm expecting a few of those type of queries.



We've had loads - asking for £15k off ! £1800 for a severe cracking in a ceiling (was old wallpaper with too much paint on it) 

No earth strap on the gas meter either - asking for a new one - was up to regs on installation.


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## Milzy (19 Oct 2022)

Lozz360 said:


> You will probably need a bit more than 16A supplies for ovens. I guess you already knew that as you mentioned 10mm cables. It’s correct that you won’t need to replace the CU just because it is plastic. It’s new installs that need to be metal. You have two spare ways at 7 & 8, so you should be OK for the two additions. You already have a supply marked “cooker”. Does this mean you will have three ovens installed? Is this a dwelling or a cafe? Just curious.



Well it’s a micro & oven and the one already labelled will have an induction hob so I do have 2 spare breakers. 
What you say is correct but if I sell the house there’s no fresh certification for 18 regs. But who’s to say we get it to 18 regs then 19 regs comes along. *rolls eyes*


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## neil_merseyside (19 Oct 2022)

si_c said:


> Also depends on the size of the ovens, a double oven might need a 32A or 50A breaker.



2 double ovens would be an impressive installation and damn costly to run!


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## Milzy (19 Oct 2022)

neil_merseyside said:


> 2 double ovens would be an impressive installation and damn costly to run!



The range will be sold soon. It’s only a new single oven, microwave oven & induction hob been fitted so probably no difference in reality. 
Going for the metal CB so there’s no selling issues down the line. Ridiculous regs though, so fire crews don’t breathe in plastic fumes when they have air masks on & plastics would be burning in a house anyway.


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## CXRAndy (20 Oct 2022)

Some ovens are rated at 13A, but it's best practice to install fixed hardwired connections.

You should be ok for EV even with 80A, vast majority of charging is overnight so very little else drawing large current. Anyhow it's only 32A the charger will draw.


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## Lozz360 (20 Oct 2022)

Milzy said:


> The range will be sold soon. It’s only a new single oven, microwave oven & induction hob been fitted so probably no difference in reality.
> Going for the metal CB so there’s no selling issues down the line. *Ridiculous regs though, so fire crews don’t breathe in plastic fumes when they have air masks on & plastics would be burning in a house anyway.*


That’s not the reason. The change in the regs was due to a high number of electrical fires starting within the CU. Plastic being combustible encouraged the fire to spread. Therefore, new installations must have a non-combustible (such as steel) CU or a plastic CU fully enclosed in a non-combustible enclosure. These regs are not retrospective but other rules, such as Landlord’s requirements, mean that rented dwellings need to comply.

A good guide I found is here https://www.elec-inn.co.uk/the-number-1-question-on-eicrs-plastic-consumer-units/


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## Hicky (20 Oct 2022)

Lozz360 said:


> That’s not the reason. The change in the regs was due to a high number of electrical fires starting within the CU. Plastic being combustible encouraged the fire to spread. Therefore, new installations must have a non-combustible (such as steel) CU or a plastic CU fully enclosed in a non-combustible enclosure. These regs are not retrospective but other rules, such as Landlord’s requirements, mean that rented dwellings need to comply.
> 
> A good guide I found is here https://www.elec-inn.co.uk/the-number-1-question-on-eicrs-plastic-consumer-units/



Yep, I had to change the CU in my rental property for this reason(plastic to metal) on inspection.


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## MrGrumpy (20 Oct 2022)

Milzy said:


> I’m getting two new ovens in a new kitchen in a few weeks. Cables probably 10mm need to run a short distance through the roof from the main consumer unit board.
> The worry is my consumer unit is made out of plastic and is about 17 years old. I’ve heard new regs mean you should have a metal box now?
> Do I need a new box for the electrician to sign off my hob & oven?


Ok we had our kitchen replaced back in summer with two ovens and two warming drawers added ( posh as f… I know and costly if all running ) . Those are wired into the kitchen ring main on 16 amp switches sockets , the drawers are 13 amp plug sockets. Our induction hob was wired in the other side with the old oven cable extended. So zero work done at the CU box , however sparky did say it should be upgraded to provide better protection on all circuits .


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## MrGrumpy (21 Oct 2022)

also didn’t know plastic CU was a thing ? However according to the regs, no need to change. Unless a new installation .


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## Milzy (21 Oct 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> also didn’t know plastic CU was a thing ? However according to the regs, no need to change. Unless a new installation .



Correct but if you’re selling up & after a dream home you don’t want to lose, your buyer could potentially spot the plastic box and ask for money knocked off or just delay you. I’ve seen minor defects & buyer be like knock me 10 k off? When you’re rushing to secure a new house they can get you by the balls.


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## CXRAndy (21 Oct 2022)

They can't force you to upgrade, unless it's a major upgrade to the wiring or problem with CU itself.

Metal CU don't cost the earth to buy. I would go with one with RCBO circuit breakers. 

I had this done a few years ago to a plastic CU. Helped sell my house with new electrical building regulations cert to hand


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## MrGrumpy (21 Oct 2022)

Milzy said:


> Correct but if you’re selling up & after a dream home you don’t want to lose, your buyer could potentially spot the plastic box and ask for money knocked off or just delay you. I’ve seen minor defects & buyer be like knock me 10 k off? When you’re rushing to secure a new house they can get you by the balls.



Maybe down south but don’t think I’ve ever bothered to look at a CU in a house before. Mind you all my houses have been 80s onwards . Last house my Father swapped out the cartridge fused CU in for MCB type but RCBO is new standard I believe. 

May get the main CU unit upgraded in this house at some point. Garage id planned to do myself


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## Milzy (6 Nov 2022)

Hi folks. I’ve got some more sparky chat. 
I bought some switches ages ago that are overkill. Double pole. Probably can’t take them back now. I want to use them for bedroom light switches. I know they are meant for appliances with heavy loads but am I right in thinking they will be ok to use just for the ceiling lights? Here’s a picture.
Thanks.


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## Phaeton (6 Nov 2022)

They will be fine, if they can switch 20A they can switch 3A


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## newts (6 Nov 2022)

You'll probably need a deeper back box fo a 20A switch.


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## si_c (6 Nov 2022)

Yeah you might need a deeper back box, but might not - check the packaging it'll tell you the minimum needed.

Otherwise should be fine, you'll just need to wire up one of the two poles.


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## MrGrumpy (6 Nov 2022)

newts said:


> You'll probably need a deeper back box fo a 20A switch.



Some of the switches are quite shallow now ! I just fitted one myself .

Not as light switch I should add ! 
Just get the right one !


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## I like Skol (6 Nov 2022)

Might be a bit stiff to switch? Such heavy rated switches for appliances are not routinely operated as they are more about isolating the appliance during maintenance or when not needed for long periods of time so the extra effort doesn't matter but does make for a more definite switching action that can cope with the higher current requirements.


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## Milzy (7 Nov 2022)

What’s the best way to bring the old method into this new switch?


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## Milzy (7 Nov 2022)

Also this other combo ?


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## I like Skol (7 Nov 2022)

Not being funny, and I could tell you what to do, but maybe you should get someone who knows what they are doing on the job, before you injure yourself or burn the house down!


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## Milzy (7 Nov 2022)

I like Skol said:


> Not being funny, and I could tell you what to do, but maybe you should get someone who knows what they are doing on the job, before you injure yourself or burn the house down!



Just checking to make sure it’s right that’s all.


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## si_c (7 Nov 2022)

Milzy said:


> Just checking to make sure it’s right that’s all.



That looks about right to me, for the second combo, just wire up one side.

Edit to add: Pick the brown side, that's the side you wire up in the same way as the original socket.


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## Phaeton (7 Nov 2022)

I like Skol said:


> Not being funny,


I beg to differ I think it's bloody hilarious that you took the time to tell somebody that you're not going to tell them


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## Milzy (7 Nov 2022)

si_c said:


> That looks about right to me, for the second combo, just wire up one side.
> 
> Edit to add: Pick the brown side, that's the side you wire up in the same way as the original socket.


So one in Common and the other 3 all in the same. 
So one wire in live in and 3 in live out? 

Or one in live out & 3 in live in? 

Or did you mean put 3 in live in & 1 in neutral next to it?


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## I like Skol (7 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I beg to differ I think it's bloody hilarious that you took the time to tell somebody that you're not going to tell them



I took the time to tactfully (or maybe not so tactfully, it's not really my thing to hold people's hand) suggest that the OP doesn't have a scooby-doo and may be better served getting in 'a man wot does' on this occasion.

I have said similar in the past about other safety related questions and there are always a few who step up to say 'don't be so insulting' but actually in reality some people can't be trusted to carry a pair of kids safety scissors, and while these people may be super sharp accountants or amazing retail business managers, the simple truth is that their brains are just 'wired' differently and this kind of thing just isn't in their skill set. Someone has to be the one to point this out, regardless of how uncomfortable it might make sensitive souls feel.


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## Phaeton (7 Nov 2022)

Milzy said:


> Just checking to make sure it’s right that’s all.


This is incorrect


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## I like Skol (7 Nov 2022)

I like Skol said:


> their brains are just 'wired' differently



By the way, see what I did there. It wasn't an accident.


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## Phaeton (7 Nov 2022)

I like Skol said:


> I took the time to tactfully (or maybe not so tactfully, it's not really my thing to hold people's hand) suggest that the OP doesn't have a scooby-doo and may be better served getting in 'a man wot does' on this occasion.
> 
> I have said similar in the past about other safety related questions and there are always a few who step up to say 'don't be so insulting' but actually in reality some people can't be trusted to carry a pair of kids safety scissors, and while these people may be super sharp accountants or amazing retail business managers, the simple truth is that their brains are just 'wired' differently and this kind of thing just isn't in their skill set. Someone has to be the one to point this out, regardless of how uncomfortable it might make sensitive souls feel.



Must be cold up there on that pedestal that you put yourself on, but back in the real world.


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## I like Skol (7 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> This is incorrect



This is exactly why I said pass on the job. Someone who can't spot two x 2 way switches even though they are upside down to each other really should step away from the wires!


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## Milzy (7 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> This is incorrect



Yes, I preferred not to go with it.


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## I like Skol (7 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Must be cold up there on that pedestal that you put yourself on, but back in the real world.



Look mate, I know you like a good argument in an empty room, it's one of your clearly obvious qualities, but while I may be lacking in plenty of other areas I certainly can get my head around how domestic wiring works so don't start trying to be a smart As if I point out that someone should reconsider taking on a task they don't understand.

BFN.....


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## Phaeton (7 Nov 2022)

I like Skol said:


> Look mate, I know you like a good argument in an empty room, it's one of your clearly obvious qualities, but while I may be lacking in plenty of other areas I certainly can get my head around how domestic wiring works so don't start trying to be a smart As if I point out that someone should reconsider taking on a task they don't understand.
> 
> BFN.....



Before you start throwing our insults maybe you ought to look in the mirror

p.s. I ain't your mate


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## Milzy (7 Nov 2022)

I like Skol said:


> Look mate, I know you like a good argument in an empty room, it's one of your clearly obvious qualities, but while I may be lacking in plenty of other areas I certainly can get my head around how domestic wiring works so don't start trying to be a smart As if I point out that someone should reconsider taking on a task they don't understand.
> 
> BFN.....


My Sparky is busy until next week. You could teach me how to do 2 ways safely though?


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## I like Skol (7 Nov 2022)

Milzy said:


> My Sparky is busy until next week. You could teach me how to do 2 ways safely though?



Cooking tea at the mo. You ain't wiring up two ways, I'll get back later....


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## fossyant (7 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Before you start throwing our insults maybe you ought to look in the mirror
> 
> p.s. I ain't your mate



I'd wind your neck in...


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## Phaeton (7 Nov 2022)

Milzy said:


> Yes, I preferred not to go with it.


If you look at the old switch the COM are at the same end, if you look on the new switch they are opposite ends. The wires that go into the COM on the old switch need to go into the COM on the new switch. Your Feed/Live needs to go into L11 & strapped to L21 OR into L12 & strapped to L22, this maybe determined by which way up the switch goes on the wall. You can test continuity with a multimeter if you have one.


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## Phaeton (7 Nov 2022)

fossyant said:


> I'd wind your neck in...


Oh no, best not go behind the bike sheds at playtime.


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## Milzy (7 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> If you look at the old switch the COM are at the same end, if you look on the new switch they are opposite ends. The wires that go into the COM on the old switch need to go into the COM on the new switch. Your Feed/Live needs to go into L11 & strapped to L21 OR into L12 & strapped to L22, this maybe determined by which way up the switch goes on the wall. You can test continuity with a multimeter if you have one.



I understand this.
Still not 100% on the second one. 
One is in neutral & other 3 all in the same side? Out or in or either?


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## MrGrumpy (7 Nov 2022)

I wrote out a big reply and just deleted, bothers me that your asking if this is how to wire it. I you want to keep it simple , go to Screwfix £1.81 for a light switch. Swap like for like, job done. No confusion for someone further down the line, seeing your work.


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## Milzy (7 Nov 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> I wrote out a big reply and just deleted, bothers me that your asking if this is how to wire it. I you want to keep it simple , go to Screwfix £1.81 for a light switch. Swap like for like, job done. No confusion for someone further down the line, seeing your work.



Yeah they need swapping. They can be used but May as keep it like for like to avoid future confusion. The first 2 way is sorted though 👍


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## CXRAndy (8 Nov 2022)

Milzy said:


> I understand this.
> Still not 100% on the second one.
> One is in neutral & other 3 all in the same side? Out or in or either?



The new switch is a double pole switch. It makes and breaks the connections on both live and neutral. 

You can wire it up, by ignoring the neutral side and just connect three wires to input, single wire to the out live connection


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## Milzy (8 Nov 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> The new switch is a double pole switch. It makes and breaks the connections on both live and neutral.
> 
> You can wire it up, by ignoring the neutral side and just connect three wires to input, single wire to the out live connection



Thanks Andy. Skol told me this. It’s working but the little LED doesn’t light up. I’m guessing you need the other pole connected for this to work.


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## CXRAndy (9 Nov 2022)

Yes it would need a neutral to light it up


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## Milzy (9 Nov 2022)

If your ceiling spotlights are a few years old & use drivers would they use more electricity than a new modern light set. 
I don’t know if I should keep my 12 light set up or replace it?


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## CXRAndy (9 Nov 2022)

What are the wattage of the lamps? Are they LED or older Halogen bulbs? Quality LED down- light lamps are £ 20 per fitting trade price. Around 4-6 Watts per lamp


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## si_c (10 Nov 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> What are the wattage of the lamps? Are they LED or older Halogen bulbs? Quality LED down- light lamps are £ 20 per fitting trade price. Around 4-6 Watts per lamp



You can get decent downlights at screwfix or toolstation for about £7 per fitting, at around 6W per light.


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## Phaeton (10 Nov 2022)

But it's a rabbit hole to go down, we have 12 in our kitchen/dining area 2 banks of 6. but as 6 of them are in the kitchen they have (or should) be at least IP44 (I think) or better still IP65 so the cheap ones are £7.48 from Screwfix, £90 in total, these are also round our existing ones are square, ceiling will then need decorating, that is assuming that the holes of the existing ones are 72mm like these. Then there's the hassle of fitting them & then the big one, how long is the ROI & is it worth it.


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## MrGrumpy (10 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> But it's a rabbit hole to go down, we have 12 in our kitchen/dining area 2 banks of 6. but as 6 of them are in the kitchen they have (or should) be at least IP44 (I think) or better still IP65 so the cheap ones are £7.48 from Screwfix, £90 in total, these are also round our existing ones are square, ceiling will then need decorating, that is assuming that the holes of the existing ones are 72mm like these. Then there's the hassle of fitting them & then the big one, how long is the ROI & is it worth it.



I’ve one room still with 12v Halogen . It’s due a make over as it’s the bathroom , so holding off for now. It’s not like they are on all the time . Every other light however in my house is LED .


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## newts (10 Nov 2022)

ROI is quite short as you'd be using approximately 1/10th of the elcetricity. 
12 x 50w watt downlight is using alot of £ over a year at current prices.


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## Phaeton (10 Nov 2022)

newts said:


> ROI is quite short as you'd be using approximately 1/10th of the elcetricity.
> 12 x 50w watt downlight is using alot of £ over a year at current prices.


12x 30w & each bank is on for less than an hour a day I would think, were they highly used I would agree


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## Milzy (10 Nov 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> What are the wattage of the lamps? Are they LED or older Halogen bulbs? Quality LED down- light lamps are £ 20 per fitting trade price. Around 4-6 Watts per lamp



I bought these, cheap as chips. 

View: https://www.amazon.co.uk/ALUSSO-Recessed-Downlights-Waterproof-Spotlights/dp/B09WMH63VZ?th=1&psc=1


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