# Puncture "proof" tyres for rock



## lulubel (1 Nov 2012)

And I really do mean rock. Solid rock, loose rock, gravel, grit. The whole range in all shapes, sizes and variations of sharpness. Occasionally, there's the odd patch of earth between the rock! (Actually, there are a few deeper sections, sand, and even some mud, but it's the rock that's caused me a problem.)

The tyres on my old cheap MTB are just marked "Camel" (along with the usual size and pressure info) so I don't know much about them, but I do know I've been running them very soft for over 1,000km off-road without a puncture. I went out today on my new bike with Racing Ralph Evos (pumped up harder because I know they're fragile) and had a pinch flat within 20 minutes of hitting the trails.

I need something that has really good puncture protection, particularly in the sidewalls and against pinch flats.

Of course, everyone would like lightweight tyres, but I'd rather be riding the bike than stopped at the side of the trail changing a tube, so puncture protection comes first, weight comes second.

I don't have a budget. If they're tough, and they last a long time, it doesn't matter if they're expensive.

(Today was my first puncture in 4 years, and it came as a bit of a shock!)


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## marzjennings (1 Nov 2012)

For real tough tyres that'll take a beating from rocks I'd look at DH specific tyres, like a Maxxis High Roller II. I've had a few sets of tyres from Maxxis and I've always been impressed with how almost bullet proof they are. But, they are not light and you may be looking at adding .5 kg to each wheel.

If the extra weight isn't something you want, then I'd look for at least a 2.2" tyre with aggressive tread pattern and something tubeless, to really avoid pinch flats.


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## screenman (1 Nov 2012)

Tubeless is the way to go to avoid pinch punctures as there is not tube to pinch. You can get an easy conversion using Stan's no tube kit.


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## Cubist (1 Nov 2012)

And then shoe it with Schwalbe Nobby Nic Snakeskin Evos. They are pretty light, (595g quoted, but on my kitchen scales they failed to reach 580g) but have sidewall protection.
They cost us UK mortals a minimum of £44 each, but those pesky Germans have undercut everybody and are knocking them out at less than 28 euros each. Make sure you go to Bike-Discount and put Nobby Nic in the search bar, rather than following the tyres links, 'cos you can get the same 2.25" tyres at two different prices.
http://www.bike-discount.de/shop/k371/a45205/nobby-nic-evo-pacestar-235-tl-ready-folding.html

Edit: I biought some last week, exactly the same, which were £25 each. These work out at £23 each according to the GBP version
http://www.bike-discount.de/shop/k3...-ready-folding.html?lg=en&country=226&cr=GBP#


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## Panter (1 Nov 2012)

+1 on the tubeless but if not an option, get some decent tyres and run them at a higher pressure if it happens again.


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## lulubel (1 Nov 2012)

Cubist said:


> And then shoe it with Schwalbe Nobby Nic Snakeskin Evos.


 
And they're a better choice than Conti Mountain Kings (the puncture protection version)? The best price I've seen for the Contis is actually higher, so price isn't a factor, but they were the ones I came across when I did a bit of searching.


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## Cubist (1 Nov 2012)

lulubel said:


> And they're a better choice than Conti Mountain Kings (the puncture protection version)? The best price I've seen for the Contis is actually higher, so price isn't a factor, but they were the ones I came across when I did a bit of searching.


I have no experience of Mountain Kings. I use the Nics because I feel they grip well on the rocky sort of stuff I ride. I like the weight, the price, the grip (fast middle, softer grippier shoulders) and the Snakeskin version have resisted the rippage that cost me a brand new Ralph Evo in one outing at Llandegla (big scuff in the sidewall) 

I run them tubeless on both bikes on Stans rims, 2.4 on the Canyon (Flows) and 2.25 on the Cotic (Arch Ex). They went on and sealed up tubeless with very little faffage using a floor pump onto both rims. And of course, for a protected sidewall tyre they aren't all that heavy.

There's a guy called Tim Kirkus, who runs a MTB holiday company in Grenada. He may well have some recommendations.... he posts on Singletrackworld occasionally, but may be worth a phone call to see what he would recommend.... if his fleet of hire bikes can survive the Sierrra Nevada he probably has a favourite tyre!
http://www.puremountains.com


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## GrumpyGregry (1 Nov 2012)

Mountain Kings, or really any ProTection Conti, are pretty robust tyres. But I'm a Conti fanboy.

Only pinch flat proof tyres is tubeless. IF you go tubeless via the conversion route do make sure your LBS will work on wheels/tyres sloshing with sealant. At least one around here refuses to do so and they are by no means unique.


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## GrumpyGregry (1 Nov 2012)

As Cubist said; for rock you want a sticky compound too.


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## billflat12 (1 Nov 2012)

marzjennings said:


> For real tough tyres that'll take a beating from rocks I'd look at DH specific tyres, like a Maxxis High Roller II. I've had a few sets of tyres from Maxxis and I've always been impressed with how almost bullet proof they are. But, they are not light and you may be looking at adding .5 kg to each wheel.
> 
> If the extra weight isn't something you want, then I'd look for at least a 2.2" tyre with aggressive tread pattern and something tubeless, to really avoid pinch flats.


never got on with Conti Mountain Kings, lost the front end twice on mates marin doin a 2hr red hardpack ride , he converted them with stans and sidewalls tore at wolftracks scotland so +1 for maxxis dh specific, maybe run 2 front minions for just dry rock in spain, rollers are more an intermediate for any wet mud as they dont clog up as quick. if you want to avoid tubeless maxxis also do heavy duty tubes that suffer the extra weight penalty.


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## lulubel (2 Nov 2012)

After some more research, I think I'm going to go for the Mountain Kings. Those and the Nobby Nics are the ones that get directly compared most often on forums, and from what I've read, the only thing separating them seems to be that the NNs are marginally better in the wet and the MKs are marginally better in the dry. Since practically all my riding is on dry surfaces - even when there is mud, like now, it's small patches on flat sections of trail - the MKs seem to make more sense to me.

I didn't really notice yesterday because I was irritated about having to change a tube, but the original tubes are VERY fragile compared to the Contis I normally use. I weighed the punctured one against a new Conti today (both with dust caps off) and the original tube weighs 133g compared to the Conti's 201g. The hole in the tube is a pinprick that took me ages to find, and I suspect, had the tube been one of my Contis, I'd still be riding around in soft-tyred bliss, thinking the Ralphs must be tougher than they seem.

So, it's going to be Conti tyres with Conti tubes for now, and I'll see how I get on. If I get another puncture, the next step will be tubeless, but having done a lot of off-road miles with a soft tyre and tube combination that didn't puncture, I know such a thing exists, and I'd rather stick with what I'm familiar with if I can.

I've found a MK set of 2 tyres/2 tubes on Bike Discount for €68 (£57), which seems a reasonable price, so it looks like they'll be getting my custom again.


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## RecordAceFromNew (4 Nov 2012)

lulubel said:


> After some more research, I think I'm going to go for the Mountain Kings. Those and the Nobby Nics are the ones that get directly compared most often on forums, and from what I've read, the only thing separating them seems to be that the NNs are marginally better in the wet and the MKs are marginally better in the dry. Since practically all my riding is on dry surfaces - even when there is mud, like now, it's small patches on flat sections of trail - the MKs seem to make more sense to me.
> 
> I didn't really notice yesterday because I was irritated about having to *change a tube*, but the original tubes are VERY fragile compared *to the Contis* I normally use. I weighed the punctured one against a new Conti today (both with dust caps off) and the original tube weighs 133g compared to the Conti's 201g. *The hole in the tube is a pinprick* that took me ages to find, and *I suspect, had the tube been one of my Contis, I'd still be riding around in soft-tyred bliss, thinking the Ralphs must be tougher than they seem.*
> 
> ...


 
Have only just noticed this - looks like you are revisiting some options discussed before... 

Thinking through the mechanics of pinch (or indeed any) flats, I won't be so sure if a heavier/thicker tube would have made any difference - we are talking about a fraction of a mm of soft rubber.

Just one more option you might want to consider since: a) you had a pinch flat not a cut in the tyre, b) you already have Conti tubes which generally have removable valve cores, c) depending on version MKs can be quite a bit heavier than RRs - if not unlikely to be more p resistant, you could consider putting 70g of Stans sealant IN each Conti tube inside the RR instead for no comparative weight penalty, low as you dare (without rim damage) pressure, and no/little sticky mess/soapy water/CO2 cartridges etc.

If the resulting p resistance (in terms of the RR against long/deep cut sealant won't cure) is acceptable, it could then be a relatively familiar and simple step to install Stans tapes (which weigh nothing) and junk those tubes to drop 200g per wheel!

Just a thought.


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## lulubel (4 Nov 2012)

Yeah, I thought I'd start a new thread because my question was very specific now, and resurrecting the old one would have just led to people answering the original question.

The Conti tubes are definitely more than 1mm thick, although I can't tell you exactly how thick because I haven't got a damaged one to dissect. But the road tubes I've chopped up are more than 1mm thick, so I can't imagine the MTB tubes are any thinner. They certainly don't feel like it. By contrast, the tube I took out feels like paper. I think Conti tubes are pretty tough, and I suspect you'd agree if you saw me putting a road tyre on a rim. It isn't a subtle process and I don't have the luxury of taking care not to trap the tube with the tyre lever.

Anyway, hopefully the new combination will work for me. If not, I suppose I'll end up going tubeless, much as I don't want to.

The weight isn't that much of a concern to me. As I said, I'd rather be riding the bike than fixing punctures. The MK Protection, which is what I've ordered, is actually heavier than the Nobby Nic snakeskin, so they're probably considerably heavier than RRs.


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## RecordAceFromNew (4 Nov 2012)

lulubel said:


> The Conti tubes are definitely more than 1mm thick, although I can't tell you exactly how thick because I haven't got a damaged one to dissect. But the road tubes I've chopped up are more than 1mm thick, so I can't imagine the MTB tubes are any thinner. They certainly don't feel like it. By contrast, the tube I took out feels like paper. I think Conti tubes are pretty tough, and I suspect you'd agree if you saw me putting a road tyre on a rim. It isn't a subtle process and I don't have the luxury of taking care not to trap the tube with the tyre lever.
> 
> The weight isn't that much of a concern to me. As I said, I'd rather be riding the bike than fixing punctures. The MK Protection, which is what I've ordered, is actually heavier than the Nobby Nic snakeskin, so they're probably considerably heavier than RRs.


 
Normal (i.e. not superlight) road tubes are usually no lighter than half the weight of normal mtb tubes, but road tyres are c25mm diameter while mtb tyres are c50mm, so mtb tubes are likely thinner when pumped up!

Maxxis' Ultralight are amongst the lightest, readily available mtb tubes at c100g, they are 0.6mm thick. 200g tubes may give another c0.6mm of "protection" - hence my reluctance to believe tubes do very much to help keeping the fairy at bay. Tyres, on the other hand, are a different story altogether from the way they are put together.

However I suspect thicker, heavier tyres, if they are supple, should have little effect on pinch flat protection - tubes an extra 0.6mm thick aren't going to help much surviving the impact between rim and tyre if pressure is low and obstacles lumpy.

It is to a certain extent skill (e.g. install without tyre levers, and slightly inflate tube before squeezing tyre to free tube inside once all in), but I think it is easier to avoid pinch flats from installation for mtbs because there is more room in the tyres.


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## lulubel (4 Nov 2012)

RecordAceFromNew said:


> It is to a certain extent skill (e.g. install without tyre levers, and slightly inflate tube before squeezing tyre to free tube inside once all in), but I think it is easier to avoid pinch flats from installation for mtbs because there is more room in the tyres.


 
My point was, I don't get pinch flats from installation, and getting the last bit of a road tyre on for me is a process of wriggle tyre lever under edge of tyre until I can hook it over the rim, then brace the wheel and use most of my strength to "flip" the tyre lever, so the tube pops on (I've broken quite a few tyre levers doing that, until I got some with metal cores). I go round afterwards squeezing the tyre and peering down between the tyre wall and the rim to check there isn't any tube trapped before I inflate, but the likelihood of the tube being trapped by the lever when I put the last bit of tyre on is probably pretty high.


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## Alun (4 Nov 2012)

I've got Nobby Nic Evos and they are great for British mud, they are kevlar bead and go on my rims without any fighting. I think for Spanish conditions, you could get away with a lighter tread though. I would go for puncture protection and wouldn't use lightweight tubes due to all the thorny foliage. Have you tried Co2 cylinders, I'm a convert, but still won't go out without a pump.


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## lulubel (5 Nov 2012)

Alun said:


> Have you tried Co2 cylinders, I'm a convert, but still won't go out without a pump.


 
To be honest, I can't see the point of them for MTBing. I can pump the tyre up harder than I need with a hand pump, so using a throw-away cartridge seems like a waste of money.

Road is a different matter, but I haven't needed to change a tube at the roadside since I started using Vittoria Rubino Pro tyres (around 4 years ago), so I've always just carried a "get me home" pump. I have changed to wider tyres now, though, and the Rubino Pros only go up to 25mm, so I've had to get something different. Hopefully, I've made a good choice, and I'll continue with no punctures on the road bike.


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## Alun (5 Nov 2012)

lulubel said:


> To be honest, I can't see the point of them for MTBing. I can pump the tyre up harder than I need with a hand pump, so using a throw-away cartridge seems like a waste of money.


I'm sure you can, but if you're going to get punctures, then a tyre that goes on and off the rim easily and a CO2 cylinder that can inflate the tube without pumping makes life a bit easier. If you buy the cylinders in bulk they're quite cheap www.co2cartridges.co.uk


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## lulubel (5 Nov 2012)

Alun said:


> I'm sure you can, but if you're going to get punctures, then a tyre that goes on and off the rim easily and a CO2 cylinder that can inflate the tube without pumping makes life a bit easier.


 
Well, the point of getting new tyres is to not get punctures, but thank you for the information.


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## Alun (5 Nov 2012)

I've always associated pinch flats (if the same as "snakebite" punctures) with too low a pressure in the tyre, would a higher pressure help?


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## screenman (5 Nov 2012)

Alun, yes higher pressure would help, but going tubeless would help more.


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## lulubel (5 Nov 2012)

Alun said:


> I've always associated pinch flats (if the same as "snakebite" punctures) with too low a pressure in the tyre, would a higher pressure help?


 
Yes, it would, and that's what I've done for now, but it doesn't make for a very comfortable - or controlled - ride.


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