# Brompton gear upgrade



## srw (29 Feb 2016)

My classic 3-speed Brompton is beginning to get a bit tired. The gear feels as if it needs a good clean, and the aluminium rack has snapped. Now that I'm working in London much less I'm tempted to convert it from a pure commuting folder into a commuting-touring hybrid folder - with half an eye on the Fridays' tour and my irregular trips to Munich. Unlike some people (mentioning no names) I don't particularly fancy touring on a 3-speed.

Mrs W didn't sound impressed when I suggested getting a second Brompton, so I'm looking at the various upgrade options from Tiller or Kinetics. Does anyone have experience of any of them? I know various people (@GrumpyGregry, @Trikeman) have bought ready-converted bikes, but both Tiller and Kinetics are in geographically inconvenient places. And I'm not ready to engineer my own solution just yet.

I was reading one of the pages provided by one or other of the suppliers, which claimed a 30-minute conversion time. That sounds somewhat optimistic..


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## velovoice (29 Feb 2016)

Tiller Cycles, hands down. Kinetics was a nightmare: you can read about my experiences and those of the blogger at Pedalitis (and read the comments). Pedalitis Bob and I both had lots of problems with Kinetics, needing all sorts of modifications to get it to work. One of his readers ditched Kinetics for Tiller and found it worked great. Bob soldiered on with further modifications to the Kinetics kit and ended up happy with the result. I ditched Kinetics altogether for the JTEK 3-speed conversion kit from SJS Cycles. It doesn't have the same range of course but it's much lighter than Brompton's 3-speed system and works very smoothly. In fact.....

We're going touring in Provence in June and the Brompton is the bike I'm taking. 


ETA: The Kinetics 8-speed rear wheel and hub is unbelievably heavy.


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## GrumpyGregry (29 Feb 2016)

User said:


> As I recall, Greg bought a single speed and a kit to do the job.


True dat! Kinetics. Plug'n'play. Worked fine from the off. Still works - or did last time I was in sthlm.


velovoice said:


> The Kinetics 8-speed rear wheel and hub is unbelievably heavy.


I was aware of the weight. It doesn't stop my carrying Rhubarb the sorts of distances I need to carry him. But I am what some people call 'a big unit'.


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## GrumpyGregry (29 Feb 2016)

srw said:


> I was reading one of the pages provided by one or other of the suppliers, which claimed a 30-minute conversion time. That sounds somewhat optimistic..


Kinetics takes about two hours ime, and you need replacement grips.


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## srw (29 Feb 2016)

GrumpyGregry said:


> Kinetics takes about two hours ime, and you need replacement grips.


I see that @velovoice and Pedalitis went for the SA 8-speed, which doesn't require a frame adjustment. Is yours the same SA model or the Shimano alfine version, which does? Kinetics supply a replacement rear triangle, while Tiller (which, having looked at a map is less geographically inconvenient than I thought) bends the frame.


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## GrumpyGregry (29 Feb 2016)

srw said:


> I see that @velovoice and Pedalitis went for the SA 8-speed, which doesn't require a frame adjustment. Is yours the same SA model or the Shimano alfine version, which does? Kinetics supply a replacement rear triangle, while Tiller (which, having looked at a map is less geographically inconvenient than I thought) bends the frame.


SA, no frame bending needed. Just drops straight in.


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## Flying Dodo (29 Feb 2016)

Re the conversion, I think about 2 hours was right for the length of time it took to upgrade @velovoice 's Brompton. Less than an hour for the actual work, and at least an hour to understand the instructions!

That Brompton is now 3 speed again, courtesy of the cheap & specifically light weight J-Tek wheels sold by SJS. The 8 speed Sturmey Archer hub is now on my converted flat bar Bickerton. Even with the extra weight from that wheel (1.5kg), the bike still weighs less than a Brompton! And slightly off topic, I think they must have spotted me cycling around on it, as they've decided to bring back the classic design, but updated like mine (although I wouldn't want a rear dérailleur).


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## CopperBrompton (1 Mar 2016)

Tiller offers a collect-and-return service at a good price – that's what I was going to do until he offered me a deal on an already-converted new bike made for a customer who went AWOL. I can't recommend the SA-8 highly enough: the combination of close-range gears and twist-grip shifting is a joy.

It is heavy, it's true, but the beauty of a Brompton is you never have to carry it more than up/downstairs. The rest of the time, use the Easy Wheels if it's a smooth surface or just unfold and wheel otherwise.


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## PaulM (1 Mar 2016)

I bought my upgrade kit from kinetics, and yes I had to wait a bit. It works well. Yes, you do need to check clearance of the swing arm and the chainset, and the modified rear derailleur and the rotary gear adjuster on the hub, but simple enough to fix I think if needed. I agree with what Trikeman says, much better gearing and shifting at the penalty of a bit more weight. I'm not a Brompton enthusiast but it's a good upgrade. Heaven knows why the factory doesn't supply it as an option.


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## srw (1 Mar 2016)

So the consensus is that the SA 8-speed conversion works well, but there's disagreement about whether Kinetics is a reliable supplier. At £395 it's decent value for a 325% gear range (according to Kinetics, for the X-RF8(W), which I think is the version that GG has got). The Shimano Alfine is either 309% or 406% depending on whether you get 8 or 11 speed, and you're paying about £100 to £300 more and have to bend or replace the frame. Which, in my book, are decent reasons not to go down that route.

Tiller cycles is recommended by you lot, but his website (http://www.tillercycles.co.uk/index.html) is discouraging of new customers and he only appears to offer the Alfine versions these days rather than the SA versions.

According to a random calculator online the standard Kinetics kit offers a lowest gear roughly equivalent to a 1:1 ratio derailleur on a 700c wheel. Which is pretty damn good - lower than my lovely titanium bike with a triple but not quite as good as the tandem's wall-climber. I'm less bothered by the top end!

@GrumpyGregry - I can't find your gallery referred to in this post:
N+1 Got my brompton this afternoon

Can you direct me to it, please - or post a couple of Scandinavian photos?

Thanks all - food for thought! I'm reasonably capable of getting things right if I take them slowly. If I didn't do this upgrade myself I'd be looking at laying out £200 or so to replace grips, rebuild rear wheel (second time inside a year) and a general service.


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## PaulM (1 Mar 2016)

The direct bottom gear of the X-RF8(W) is a real joy. I pedalled up a long hill in it tonight and it felt wonderfully efficient.


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## GrumpyGregry (1 Mar 2016)

Try these, apologies for the poor quality of some....

https://www.cyclechat.net/media/users/grumpygregry.5193/albums


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## GrumpyGregry (1 Mar 2016)

So... it is all a bit heath robinson, and I think a little undergeared for me tbh, but it works. I no longer use the Brompton folding pedal btw, I've gone over to the MKS swappable jobbies.

Edit. The chain does sometimes catch on the triangle when folding indicating the crank is about 1mm to far inboard and not flat as it doesn't do it every time. I live with it.


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## GrumpyGregry (2 Mar 2016)

@srw be warned the crank on the folding pedal side is not a thing of beauty. Basically he reprofiles it with an angle grinder.


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## CharlieB (11 Apr 2016)

Flying Dodo said:


> The 8 speed Sturmey Archer hub is now on my converted flat bar Bickerton. Even with the extra weight from that wheel (1.5kg), the bike still weighs less than a Brompton! And slightly off topic, I think they must have spotted me cycling around on it, as they've decided to bring back the classic design, but updated like mine (although I wouldn't want a rear dérailleur).



I quite like this, though, @Flying Dodo …


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## srw (22 Apr 2016)

As an update - I've just pushed the button on a Kinetics SA8 conversion kit. Yes, the one that @Flying Dodo struggled with and the one that @GrumpyGregry got to work. I'll keep this thread posted on how I get on.

It's not entirely coincidence that as I was riding along this evening my 3-speed gear cable snapped. Fortunately the rides I _have_ to do tomorrow and Sunday are flat and reasonably short, so pushing the top gear along won't kill me. Unfortunately it does mean that my plan to do a bit of a tour ride on Sunday will have to be postponed.

It _is_ entirely coincidence that I discovered today that the pockets on a Brompton touring pannier are absolutely perfect for carrying a couple of 500ml bottles of beer.


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## GrumpyGregry (23 Apr 2016)

Made to work, and using daily in cph.


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## shouldbeinbed (23 Apr 2016)

@srw Best of luck, I'd be interested to hear how the SA 8 performs.

I'm happy with the 3 on my Brommy but very disappointed with 5 SP I have fitted to my Birdy. Thebhad a poorer rap than the 3 or 8 but still many positive reviews, so I took the plunge: I hope it improves as it gets well bedded in because right now its not brilliant, it seems to be very much more clunky between gears, less robust and very needy of constant attention to keep running not just just right but reliably at all and with accurate shifting.


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## Flying Dodo (24 Apr 2016)

It's a very nice range on the 8 speed. I run it with a 40 tooth chainring at the front and 20 cog at the back. I only struggled a bit installing the unit, as the instructions were so bad, as the diagrams weren't very good and it took a while to work out what was actually required. However, swapping it over to the Bickerton was fine, as I did that without looking at the notes.


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## cisamcgu (27 Apr 2016)

srw said:


> As an update - I've just pushed the button on a Kinetics SA8 conversion kit. Yes, the one that @Flying Dodo struggled with and the one that @GrumpyGregry got to work. I'll keep this thread posted on how I get on.
> 
> .



I have been considering this too - I would be very interested in how you get on with it


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## srw (13 May 2016)

Look what has appeared on my desk!


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## Pale Rider (13 May 2016)

srw said:


> View attachment 128193
> 
> 
> Look what has appeared on my desk!



I bet the light in there is very bright.


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## srw (13 May 2016)

Pale Rider said:


> I bet the light in there is very bright.


It says BUMM on the box.

*snigger*


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## GrumpyGregry (13 May 2016)

srw said:


> View attachment 128193
> 
> 
> Look what has appeared on my desk!


You are allowed deliveries at work?


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## srw (13 May 2016)

GrumpyGregry said:


> You are allowed deliveries at work?


We are a decent employer.


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## srw (13 May 2016)

User said:


> Not when I delivered him something they didn't. The receptionist was most reluctant to accept it.


That was the other office, which we don't control. Although in theory we're allowed deliveries there too.


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