# special lube?



## Blue Hills (4 Jun 2021)

I know little about ebikes, don't have one (yet), but I was intrigued by this which popped up from an ebay seller I use for leg powered stuff sometimes.








https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/144025021559?hash=item21888f6c77:g:Vg4AAOSwGAJgjAbh

so do you really need special lube for ebikes?


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## Pale Rider (4 Jun 2021)

The notion of a (legal) ebike having a high torque drivetrain is surely nonsense.

On my Bosch ebike, I can just about match a fit club roadie on a climb.

The likes of Bernal would leave me for dust.

So if anyone needs a special lube, it's him.


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## Ridgeway (4 Jun 2021)

Pretty sure Muc Off do a similar product


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## Specialeyes (4 Jun 2021)

That lube is a derivative of a very rare form of snake oil!


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## Ming the Merciless (4 Jun 2021)

Made from Black Mambas


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## Drago (4 Jun 2021)

Pale Rider said:


> So if anyone needs a special lube, it's him.


Whatever turns him on. It's not for me to judge!


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## Legomutton (4 Jun 2021)

Well...some crank drives claim to add 300% or more to the rider's effort. That is presumably torque limited so wouldn't really add 300% to Bernal's efforts but with a higher powered MTB motor it could get transmission loads pretty high.

In my case I use mainly Eco (40% addition to a weak cyclist's efforts), even on hills now I am getting my legs back so I don't think I would qualify but riders who habitually use the higher assist modes could well be giving the drive train an unusually hard time - as I have no doubt Bernal does, and I expect he has a new chain every day.

I still think it's just marketing - are they saying that 'normal' chain oil is deliberately made to a lower standard? It happens with Nurofen -
Targeted pain relief or targeted marketing?

The weak link could however be the wheels, and the lubricant won't help that much.

I hate chain cleaning and the muck that oil hangs on to, and I'm a fair weather on-road cyclist, so I have started using 'dry' wax.


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## fossyant (4 Jun 2021)

Snake oil. Finish Line Ceramic wet is my fave as it runs pretty clean and is easy to wipe off (not because of 'ceramic' in the name). Also Muck Off Wet from Aldi is pretty clean running and a little cheaper


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## Drago (4 Jun 2021)

Legomutton said:


> Well...some crank drives claim to add 300% or more to the rider's effort. That is presumably torque limited so wouldn't really add 300% to Bernal's efforts but with a higher powered MTB motor it could get transmission loads pretty high.


The claims are utter garbage. Some are claiming 70 or 80NM, as much as some small cars produce. That's clearly guff. Tow a small car with a bicycle chain using sufficient torque to get it moving and its doubtful the chain would survive, which just shows how preposterous the effort and power claims are.

The issue is there is no legislative or industry standard, so manufacturers are free to make up whatever they want without consequence.

Paley is, as usual, correct. I can outclimb ebikes with little difficulty, so I am capable of producing more effort in a shorter period of time than an ebike (including my own) and Ive managed my 50 year riding career without any special lubes.


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## Blue Hills (4 Jun 2021)

So it's garbage then as I suspected.
Slightly disappointed I must say to see weldtite indulging in this sort of stuff but I suppose it's the way of the cycling world.
I actually use their TF2 chain lube for non ebikes which I think excellent.
I bought a litre for a very decent price.
And I also often wonder whether it's exactly the same as the stuff sold by wilco.

This:
https://www.wilko.com/en-uk/wilko-a...lon-surface-protect-protector-100ml/p/0344046

I use the both the TF2 and wilco stuff 


Next week I suppose they launch post-ebike-ride-balm for ebike bums.


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## Legomutton (4 Jun 2021)

Drago said:


> The claims are utter garbage. Some are claiming 70 or 80NM, as much as some small cars produce. That's clearly guff. Tow a small car with a bicycle chain using sufficient torque to get it moving and its doubtful the chain would survive, which just shows how preposterous the effort and power claims are.



A bit iffy as an unqualified claim, but not necessarily a lie. It's quite possible that a 250W rated bike motor could produce the same torque at its crankshaft as a small car. The missing bit of the equation is rpm.

kW = 0.105 x Nm x rpm / 1000. So your small car with 80Nm @ 5000 rpm will produce 42kW, about 56bhp. Your 80Nm bike, at a cadence of 60, would produce 0.5kW or 500W, which is just about credible as a peak power figure for a motor with a continuous power rating of 250W.

Watts = Amps * Volts so at 36V, you'd need 14A to produce half a kW. That also sounds credible - 15A - 20A controllers wouldn't be unusual, would they?

If the pedaller was only maintaining a cadence of 30, then 80Nm would produce c. 250W, the rating of the motor. What they don't quote (there is as you say no standard) is the rpm at which peak torque is produced.

I don't entirely disagree with your drift because there will undoubtedly be conditions in which the motor can't add 300% - because the rpm are too low perhaps, or the rider input is very high. But 40-80 Nm is quite on the cards at the cranks.

EDIT - you can do similar sums for a person. It's said that a fit cyclist can produce around 250W. If he or she is doing that at a cadence of 60, then they are applying torque of about 40Nm. To deliver 250W at a cadence of 30 would require the magic 80Nm.

I think it's reasonable to claim that an e-bike typically applies significantly more torque (force) to the drive train than an average Sunday cyclist. Inexperienced cyclists are probably the worst for the drive train because they tend to use low cadence (therefor more torque for the same power).

P.P.S. - 10 Newtons is equivalent to 1 Kilogram force. I Don't know how much you weigh, but if you can apply 50Kg. of your weight to a 170mm crank at the horizontal then at that moment you are applying about >80 Nm. to the crank yourself - 500 Newtons at 0.17 metres being 500 x 0.17 = 85Nm. Of course, if the crank was stationary you would be producing 85Nm. but no power at all.


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## Legomutton (4 Jun 2021)

This calculator might help in understanding how torque relates to power, and why a bike motor can feasibly exert the same torque as a small car.

Torque-RPM-Power calculator

It also illustrates why the way to get the best support out of a EAPC is to keep cadence up.


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## fossyant (4 Jun 2021)

@Legomutton a fit rider can out power a legal e-bike. No need for special oil, unless you take into account many e-bike users aren't regular cyclists, and might need thicker oils as they don't maintain the bikes anyway. 

I say 'many' as most on here use both types of bikes. E-bikes are the new thing at Trail centres - let's in-experienced riders get to the top of big mountains, then come down with a very heavy bit of kit.


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## Legomutton (4 Jun 2021)

fossyant said:


> @Legomutton a fit rider can out power a legal e-bike. No need for special oil, unless you take into account many e-bike users aren't regular cyclists, and might need thicker oils as they don't maintain the bikes anyway.



I don't doubt it, particularly for short periods, especially if you specify power rather than torque (experienced riders tend to have decent cadence). But a crank-drive e-bike is still going to put more torque through the crank than the same rider on an unassisted bike, because the motor's contribution is additional to the rider's own input; and the rider is probably also using a higher gear because of the assistance.

To say that the average e-bike doesn't have a high-torque drive train compared with a fit roadie or Bernal is fair, but I'm pretty sure Bernal goes through a lot of chains.

I, on the other hand, am a physically weak cyclist who uses mainly Eco (and low gears) rather than whacking it into Turbo mode, so even on my e-bike I think my chain has an easy time. 

I agree it's unlikely the oil is special, I think it's marketing.

I'm sorry if I laboured the point that the e-bike torque claims can't be dismissed just because a small car has the same torque figure. Torque and power are not the same thing. The car can have the same torque even though it has 100 x the power. The reason is that it has 100 x the revs.

And I liked the calculator toy so I passed it on. 

Peace.


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## Pale Rider (5 Jun 2021)

Legomutton said:


> but I'm pretty sure Bernal goes through a lot of chains.



There is that, and I understand there is a complex relationship between torque and power which I don't fully understand.

But given the ebiker gets up the climb at roughly the same pace as the fit roadie, it seems very unlikely the stress on the respective drivetrains can be a great deal different.

The ebiker's cadence will typically be lower, although increasingly there are roadie-style ebikes which will attract roadies used to a higher cadence.

As a flat bar plodder, my cadence is probably about 60rpm, less on steep climbs.

Would a 90rpm+ cadence for the same speed significantly reduce the stress on a drivetrain?

The total weight the ebike chain has to shift will almost always be greater, which suggests to me a greater strain on it, but I doubt that amounts to much given the relatively small differences involved.


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## Legomutton (5 Jun 2021)

Pale Rider said:


> The ebiker's cadence will typically be lower, although increasingly there are roadie-style ebikes which will attract roadies used to a higher cadence.
> 
> As a flat bar plodder, my cadence is probably about 60rpm, less on steep climbs.
> 
> Would a 90rpm+ cadence for the same speed significantly reduce the stress on a drivetrain?



Going from 60 to 90 at the same total work rate (rider effort plus motor) would reduce torque by 1/3. The difference sounds more impressive if you say dropping your cadence from 90 to 60 increases torque requirement by 50% 

There will be a small proportion (I'm guessing) who habitually use very low cadence and whack the bike into Turbo for hills, which is probably the worst case but I agree it's a bit theoretical and a much more important predictor is probably whether the chain is lubricated (with anything) or not.

Isn't there is a school of thought that believes the factory grease is very good and no further lubrication is necessary?


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## Mike_P (5 Jun 2021)

The only specific ebike bike shed thing required is a suitable water free cleaner such as that provided by Finish Line for cleaning around the electric bits.


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## gzoom (5 Jun 2021)

Drago said:


> I can outclimb ebikes with little difficulty.



Are you seriously claiming you can climb faster than the current UK hill climbing champion, whom was able to take 30 seconds off a 2 mintue 30 climb when given an eBike.

Do you have any acutal figures to support your claims?


View: https://youtu.be/L8BgAbisp_I


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## Salty seadog (5 Jun 2021)

Blue Hills said:


> I know little about ebikes, don't have one (yet), but I was intrigued by this which popped up from an ebay seller I use for leg powered stuff sometimes.
> 
> View attachment 592090
> 
> ...



No.


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## Ming the Merciless (5 Jun 2021)

Why would higher crank torque require different chain lubrication. What’s the engineering think behind that?


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## gbb (10 Jun 2021)

Formerly discussed in this forum was the differences between rear hub drive and crank drive...it seems generally accepted that crank drive will wear a chain quicker primarily because its pulling the chain which is under tension. Not sure that's actually torque but anyway...
I assume this lube is perhaps aimed at mitigating the extra wear an ebike chain can encounter.

Whether it does actually work or not is entirely debatable...


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## Bobario (10 Jun 2021)

At first glance I thought it was Marmite e-Lube. No wonder it's divided opinions on here.


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## ebikeerwidnes (10 Jun 2021)

I would think that ebike lube would not really make much difference to the wear based on the power through the chain

Based on my extensive knowledge of the subject (i.e. I have watched lots of Wheeler Dealer episodes) I thin heat is the main problem for lube rather than power

I would imagine that a 'better' chain would be a better answer
Although nothing special - just something that a good pro would use
I am pretty sure that me (60+ old fat etc etc etc) plus a 250W motor puts a damn site less load on a chain that a good pro does
so the technology is out there

My chain wore out (according to the LBS) after about 3000 miles - the LBS said they replaced it with a 'better quality one' - which was not expensive
I shall see if it lasts any longer!


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## gbb (11 Jun 2021)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> I would think that ebike lube would not really make much difference to the wear based on the power through the chain
> 
> Based on my extensive knowledge of the subject (i.e. I have watched lots of Wheeler Dealer episodes) I thin heat is the main problem for lube rather than power
> 
> ...


'Better quality' chain is difficult to quantify, .
On my 10 speed roadie (no longer used) i went through Shimano, Campag, SRam and KMC chains on it, didnt matter which i fitted, i always got between 1200 and 1600 miles before the wear indicator suggested a new one was in order. Price ranges in those chains were all moderate, neither expensive nor cheap. 
I only ever fitted one 'very cheap' chain to a bike and it fared very poorly. 

TBF, i'd take 3000 miles on any bike, road, MTB or ebike, i never achieved it on anything i owned.  Even my ebike (rear hub drive) is on its second chain at 3300 miles.


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