# HGV Fatality



## Origamist (10 Feb 2010)

"Cyclist killed in Tower Bridge Road lorry collision"

http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/4337


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## ttcycle (10 Feb 2010)

Oh my God. Another cyclist.

I don't know what to say. I was there yesterday and for the old work would commute that route. There are always lorries etc down that part of Tower Bridge.

RIP

I haven't forgotten the HGV report back from LCC meeting with Charlie Lloyd- just trying to get a few things done first.


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## MacB (10 Feb 2010)

Not good, I see they still persist in describing these things as collisions between cyclist and xxxxxx. I note that it's a skip lorry, I doubt that a whole peleton of cyclists could make a dent in that.


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## Fab Foodie (10 Feb 2010)

MacB said:


> Not good, I see they still persist in describing these things as collisions between cyclist and xxxxxx. I note that it's a skip lorry, I doubt that a whole peleton of cyclists could make a dent in that.



IIRC haven't the most fatalities in similar circumstances involved skip lorries or tipper trucks?
Looks like a left turn is implicated as well.

Very Sad, RIP.


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## Origamist (16 Feb 2010)

"David Vilaseca-Perez, 46, professor of Hispanic studies and critical theory at Royal Holloway University, died after becoming trapped beneath the lorry following the collision."

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...killed-after-lorry-hits-bike-on-south-bank.do


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## davidg (16 Feb 2010)

User3143 said:


> Another left turning lorry



why people undertake things that are moving is beyond me....

esp lorries when you look at the stats

are these two the same incident though?


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## Origamist (16 Feb 2010)

davidg said:


> why people undertake things that are moving is beyond me....
> 
> esp lorries when you look at the stats
> 
> are these two the same incident though?



We do not know what happended here, let's not speculate. 

Yes, they refer to the same fatality.


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## davidg (16 Feb 2010)

fair point, but we do know that there are a fair amount of these...

I cringe every time I see someone go up the left hand side of one on my way in


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## MacB (16 Feb 2010)

davidg said:


> why people undertake things that are moving is beyond me....
> 
> esp lorries when you look at the stats
> 
> are these two the same incident though?



I was just about to criticse some of the comments on the article and now we get this. Do you happen to know the cyclist undertook? Could it not be possible that the cyclist was already waiting to turn left and the lorry came up the outside of him and swung across, never seeing him?

I've had a lorry decide to overtake me, realise there wasn't enough room, and swing back into me. That was on a clear, straight, road, in light overcast morning conditions. I was lucky but the driver didn't stop or make any acknowledgment.


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## davidg (16 Feb 2010)

MacB said:


> I was just about to criticse some of the comments on the article and now we get this. Do you happen to know the cyclist undertook? Could it not be possible that the cyclist was already waiting to turn left and the lorry came up the outside of him and swung across, never seeing him?
> 
> I've had a lorry decide to overtake me, realise there wasn't enough room, and swing back into me. That was on a clear, straight, road, in light overcast morning conditions. I was lucky but the driver didn't stop or make any acknowledgment.



hopefully you have seen my post above just before you posted yours...

I wasnt looking to judge this accident, just making more of a general observation

quite clearly anything can happen out there, and dont want to jinx myself either!!


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## dellzeqq (16 Feb 2010)

skip lorry. Again.

Ron Smith Recycling of Feltham. The very company that I called after the Babe was trailed up the hill at Smithfield. The very one.


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## Riverman (16 Feb 2010)

davidg said:


> hopefully you have seen my post above just before you posted yours...
> 
> I wasnt looking to judge this accident, just making more of a general observation
> 
> quite clearly anything can happen out there, and dont want to jinx myself either!!



I kinda agree. Most of the fatalities we've heard about have involved a left hand turn. It's no co-incidence, not that you're implying it is Mac.


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## classic33 (17 Feb 2010)

dellzeqq said:


> skip lorry. Again.
> 
> Ron Smith Recycling of Feltham. The very company that I called after the Babe was trailed up the hill at Smithfield. The very one.



A number of HSE Enforcement Notices served
http://www.hse.gov.uk/notices/breach/breach_list.asp?ST=B&SN=F&EO==&SF=RID&SV=4179882


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## Origamist (17 Feb 2010)

classic33 said:


> A number of HSE Enforcement Notices served
> http://www.hse.gov.uk/notices/breach/breach_list.asp?ST=B&SN=F&EO==&SF=RID&SV=4179882



Thanks for that link - I did not realise you could search the HSE website for enforcement notices.


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## Origamist (11 Mar 2010)

Two fatalities in two days:

http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/4401

http://www.hackneygazette.co.uk/con...=newshkyg&itemid=WeED10 Mar 2010 10:49:31:683


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## Origamist (11 Mar 2010)

"Mayor and TfL announce *ambitious* plans for improving cycle safety" (my bolds):

http://www.london.gov.uk/media/pres...nounce-ambitious-plans-improving-cycle-safety


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## Origamist (12 Mar 2010)

Origamist said:


> "Cyclist killed in Tower Bridge Road lorry collision"
> 
> http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/4337




Obituary here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2010/mar/11/david-vilaseca-obituary


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## Origamist (12 Mar 2010)

Origamist said:


> http://www.hackneygazette.co.uk/con...=newshkyg&itemid=WeED10 Mar 2010 10:49:31:683



More detail here: 

"The family of a singer crushed to death by a skip lorry as she cycled to work paid tribute today to the “vibrant and creative” musician.

Shivon Watson, 28, was killed at a roundabout in east London after being trapped between the lorry and railings as they both turned left..."

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...ight-say-family-of-cyclist-killed-by-lorry.do



Origamist said:


> http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/4401



More detail here:

"Friends of a medical student who was crushed to death in a collision with a tipper truck while cycling to lectures paid tribute to an “incredibly talented” young man today.

Muhammad “Haris” Ahmed, 21, died instantly in the collision near London Bridge on Tuesday morning."

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...n-cyclist-killed-on-bike-safety-launch-day.do


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## Origamist (12 Mar 2010)

Origamist said:


> "Mayor and TfL announce *ambitious* plans for improving cycle safety" (my bolds):
> 
> http://www.london.gov.uk/media/pres...nounce-ambitious-plans-improving-cycle-safety



CTC response to the above TFL strategy:

http://www.ctc.org.uk/resources/Campaigns/0912_CTC-TfL_CSAP_con.pdf


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## Origamist (17 Mar 2010)

*Deaths sound alarm bells for London's 'Year of Cycling'*

http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/deaths-sound-alarm-bells-for-londons-year-of-cycling-25393


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## Origamist (31 Mar 2010)

Captain Jonathan Allen, 29, was cycling home from his base when he was hit by a lorry as he swerved to avoid the 15ft long "crater" on the A338 on Salisbury Plain, Wilts. 


Read more: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...led-by-pothole-on-the-A338.html#ixzz0jl0xRmOz


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## Origamist (31 Mar 2010)

User3143 said:


> He should have checked over his shoulder



How do you know he didn't?


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## Origamist (31 Mar 2010)

User3143 said:


> How do you know that he did?



I don't know what he did or didn't do, but it is *you *who is speculating that he *did not* look over his shoulder. If you do not have evidence to support such conjecture, I'd retract those comments as it is both unhelpful and hurtful to the family of the deceased.


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## Rhythm Thief (31 Mar 2010)

Origamist said:


> How do you know he didn't?



It's a reasonable supposition, given that he "swerved" to avoid a pothole and was then hit by the truck. But if no one knows either way, a series of posts saying "did" "didn't" "did" "didn't" etc is unlikely to help us reach a conclusion.


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## Origamist (31 Mar 2010)

Rhythm Thief said:


> But if no one knows either way, a series of posts saying "did" "didn't" "did" "didn't" etc is unlikely to help us reach a conclusion.



Indeed - then why this:



Rhythm Thief said:


> *It's a reasonable supposition*, given that he "swerved" to avoid a pothole and was then hit by the truck.


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## Sh4rkyBloke (31 Mar 2010)

Looking at that picture (I know, I visited the website... the shame!) I'd say the HGV driver had no business trying to overtake there anyway - the road's not wide enough and has double solid lines down the middle. Unless the cyclist was doing less than 10mph it was an illegal manoeuvre.

RIP.


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## Origamist (31 Mar 2010)

Sh4rkyBloke said:


> Looking at that picture (I know, I visited the website... the shame!) I'd say the HGV driver had no business trying to overtake there anyway - the road's not wide enough and has double solid lines down the middle. Unless the cyclist was doing less than 10mph it was an illegal manoeuvre.
> 
> RIP.



As we do not know the speed of the cyclist, we do not know if the HGV driver was legally allowed to overtake or not.

As always in these cases, we will never know the full picture.


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## Rhythm Thief (31 Mar 2010)

Rhythm Thief said:


> But if no one knows either way, a series of posts saying "did" "didn't" "did" "didn't" etc is unlikely to help us reach a conclusion.





Origamist said:


> Indeed - then why this:





Rhythm Thief said:


> It's a reasonable supposition, given that he "swerved" to avoid a pothole and was then hit by the truck.



Because I was answering this post:



Origamist said:


> How do you know he didn't?



Which was made in response to this post:



User3143 said:


> He should have checked over his shoulder




My point being that, given the use of the word "swerved" in the description of the cyclist avoiding a pothole - and who knows how accurate that is, but never mind that for now - it is a reasonable supposition that the cyclist should have looked over his shoulder. Note that "reasonable supposition" means just that, not "this was all the cyclist's fault". And, as I thought I'd made clear, we don't know what happened and there's likely to be little profit in spending pages and pages arguing about it.


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## Sh4rkyBloke (31 Mar 2010)

Origamist said:


> *As we do not know the speed of the cyclist, we do not know if the HGV driver was legally allowed to overtake or not.*
> 
> As always in these cases, we will never know the full picture.


True, hence me saying "*unless *the cyclist etc.". However, if the overtake was legal, how much room was the HGV driver *not *giving in order that a swerving cyclist (and not swerving too far judging from the width of the pothole and assuming he wasn't almost touching the verge) ended up under his wheels?


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## Origamist (31 Mar 2010)

Rhythm Thief said:


> My point being that, given the use of the word "swerved" in the description of the cyclist avoiding a pothole - and who knows how accurate that is, but never mind that for now - it is a reasonable supposition that the cyclist should have looked over his shoulder. Note that "reasonable supposition" means just that, not "this was all the cyclist's fault". And, as I thought I'd made clear, we don't know what happened and there's likely to be little profit in spending pages and pages arguing about it.



I'm not arguing, I'm asking you to desist with your so called "reasonable supposition" line which is little more than a fancy linguistic wrapper for speculation and second guessing. 

I think you would do better to heed your own advice about unnecessarily prolonging this line of unilluminating and unedifying debate.


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## Origamist (31 Mar 2010)

Sh4rkyBloke said:


> True, hence me saying "*unless *the cyclist etc.". However, if the overtake was legal, how much room was the HGV driver *not *giving in order that a swerving cyclist (and not swerving too far judging from the width of the pothole and assuming he wasn't almost touching the verge) ended up under his wheels?



Sharky, we simply do not know the causal/proximal factors, their relative importance and how they coalesced in this fatal collision. 

Apologies for repeating myself, but there is simply not enough detail in the reports to try to piece together what happened. Hence, why I'm not willing to speculate and why I do not think it is productive.


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## Rhythm Thief (31 Mar 2010)

Origamist said:


> I'm not arguing, I'm asking you to desist with your so called "reasonable suppositions" which are little more than a linguistic wrappers for speculation and second guessing.
> 
> I think you would do better to heed your own advice about unnecessarily prolonging this line of unilluminating and unedifying debate.



There seems little point in asking me a question, then having a go at me when I answer it.


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## Origamist (31 Mar 2010)

Rhythm Thief said:


> There seems little point in asking me a question, then having a go at me when I answer it.



I'm not having a go and I'm sorry if that's the way it's coming across. I just do not think that suppositions (even if you think they are reasonable) are appropriate or helpful given the dearth of available info.

My last comments on the matter.


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## Origamist (26 May 2010)

Another HGV/cyclist fatality: 



> A cyclist was killed in Pimlico on Saturday, following a collision with a lorry.
> Police were called at around 11.30am to reports that a cyclist had collided with a lorry at the junction of Vauxhall Bridge Road and Drummond Gate.
> The cyclist, who was pronounced dead at the scene, was named as 48-year-old Everton Smith, from Fulham.
> 
> ...


http://www.fulhamchronicle.co.uk/fu...lled-after-being-hit-by-lorry-82029-26517737/ 
http://www.fulhamchronicle.co.uk/fu...lled-after-being-hit-by-lorry-82029-26517737/


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## Origamist (27 May 2010)

Origamist said:


> Another HGV/cyclist fatality:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.fulhamchronicle.co.uk/fu...lled-after-being-hit-by-lorry-82029-26517737/



A bit more info: 

http://www.fulhamchronicle.co.uk/fu...opens-into-tragic-cycle-death-82029-26528811/


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## Origamist (1 Jun 2010)

"Family of cyclist killed by truck call for HGV rush-hour ban"

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...ipper-truck-call-for-rush-hour-ban-on-hgvs.do


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## Aperitif (1 Jun 2010)

Ken Livingstone or other might pick it up as a mayoral election 'tool' perhaps?
'Night time' lorry action might make it similarly hazardous for night time riders I suppose. 
Sad about the flatmate of the deceased - she has known four cyclists killed!
And I remember that day because I cycled past shortly after the accident - it was awfully silent.


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## Origamist (2 Jun 2010)

User3143 said:


> There's a ghost bike in Notting Hill for the above fatality - saw it on Sunday. As for a rush hour ban this has been debated before I think.



I attended the memorial ride for Eilidh Cairns and I wish the family all the best in their quest for justice and continued campaigning on behalf of vulnerable road users.


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## Origamist (16 Jun 2010)

Origamist said:


> A bit more info:
> 
> http://www.fulhamchronicle.co.uk/fu...opens-into-tragic-cycle-death-82029-26528811/



*Cyclist father of three killed on road where bike lane ‘is too tight’*

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...illed-on-road-where-bike-lane-is-too-tight.do

And LCC (with Gaz's vid): 
http://www.lcc.org.uk/index.asp?PageID=1845


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## magnatom (21 Jun 2010)

Origamist said:


> *Cyclist father of three killed on road where bike lane ‘is too tight’*
> 
> http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...illed-on-road-where-bike-lane-is-too-tight.do
> 
> ...




I found this quote quite interesting:



> She said: “Where cycle lanes are less than 1.5 metres in width, it is because the road is too narrow to introduce a wider lane. The green tarmac at these locations helps cyclists to navigate and is designed to alert motorists to their presence.”



How does an inadequate lane help cyclists to navigate, obviously it didn't on this occasion. In general (not talking about this case particularly) cyclists on roads where there is limited space should be taking a more prominent position, not riding in the gutter. In my mind it is certainly possible that the lane was contributory.

This is the sort of case where relatives should be suing the council, IMO.


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## gaz (17 Jul 2010)

magnatom said:


> I found this quote quite interesting:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And what is interesting, is that most of the cycle lanes in Pimlico are of that width or smaller.


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