# Loophole to be closed on phone use at the wheel.



## Cycleops (1 Nov 2019)

Glad to see that legislation will be changed so that using a phone for any purpose while driving will result in prosection. Previously a driver who had his conviction quashed for filming an accident because he wasn't making a call;
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-50250730


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## winjim (1 Nov 2019)

Legislation hasn't been changed.


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## Cycleops (1 Nov 2019)

_Sorry, but will be changed._


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## twentysix by twentyfive (1 Nov 2019)

About time.


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## mjr (1 Nov 2019)

Cycleops said:


> _Sorry, but will be changed._


Will it? Is it going to get through before next Wednesday and Parliament is dissolved?


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## cyberknight (1 Nov 2019)

still got to catch em , so it will make fark all difference to people behavior


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## mjr (1 Nov 2019)

cyberknight said:


> still got to catch em , so it will make fark all difference to people behavior


Makes it slightly easier to catch 'em if you've no longer to prove that the phoney driver is using it to make a call or send a message. I hope they also outlaw the ones who leave the phone on their lap or prop it by the handbrake - there's good reason why instrument displays are mounted just below the windscreen, not by the driver's knees - and any display being mounted where it conceals part of the windscreen.


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## Banjo (1 Nov 2019)

Even if the phone is in a holder the driver is still distracted .In many places of work phones are not allowed for safety reasons and rightly so.


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## presta (1 Nov 2019)

I don't see why they shouldn't just extend it to cover any device that's not essential to driving the car or medical needs.


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## Phaeton (1 Nov 2019)

presta said:


> I don't see why they shouldn't just extend it to cover any device that's not essential to driving the car or medical needs.


Like radio's & cigarettes?


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## cyberknight (1 Nov 2019)

mjr said:


> Makes it slightly easier to catch 'em if you've no longer to prove that the phoney driver is using it to make a call or send a message. I hope they also outlaw the ones who leave the phone on their lap or prop it by the handbrake - there's good reason why instrument displays are mounted just below the windscreen, not by the driver's knees - and any display being mounted where it conceals part of the windscreen.


coppers aint that bothered though i gave details of a caller to the police , phone number van reg ,time, date etc outside of a school and plod didnt want to know .


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## mjr (1 Nov 2019)

cyberknight said:


> coppers aint that bothered though i gave details of a caller to the police , phone number van reg ,time, date etc outside of a school and plod didnt want to know .


I think you may be overgeneralizing but more encouragement for police to enforce this might help too.


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## Cycleops (1 Nov 2019)

cyberknight said:


> coppers aint that bothered though i gave details of a caller to the police , phone number van reg ,time, date etc outside of a school and plod didnt want to know .


Probably insufficient evidence. If you had footage of the offence it would make prosection easier I guess.


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## Phaeton (1 Nov 2019)

Cycleops said:


> Probably insufficient evidence. If you had footage of the offence it would make prosection easier I guess.


Unless you have this it's just a he said they said situation which would never get to court.


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## derrick (1 Nov 2019)

Who is going to police it. i see drivers on there phones all the time, No police to stop them, the ones that see them normally turn a blind eye.


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## Drago (1 Nov 2019)

Crush offenders cars, and a mandatory 28 day ban.


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## sheddy (1 Nov 2019)

FFS why didn't authorities sort this out when the fine went up ?


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## Bonefish Blues (1 Nov 2019)

derrick said:


> Who is going to police it. i see drivers on there phones all the time, No police to stop them, the ones that see them normally turn a blind eye.


Trials are beginning of cameras that will detect it. They are being used in Oz, IIRC.


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## Bonefish Blues (1 Nov 2019)

sheddy said:


> FFS why didn't authorities sort this out when the fine went up ?


Because poor drafting. Because Parliament seems always to be behind when it comes to matters technological (facial recognition springs to mind...)


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## tom73 (1 Nov 2019)

By the sounds of it this won't be coming till at the earliest spring next year. 
How many more will get off till then I wonder?


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## Shearwater Missile (1 Nov 2019)

People can`t be trusted in not using their phones whilst in control of a motor vehicle. I say shut the phone in the boot if it is only the driver of the vehicle as it seems they are the worst offenders. Only allow a phone for passengers but even then it is a distraction. The Aussies don`t allow alcohol inside a vehicle it has to be in the boot. I`am sure people will shoot me down on this one.


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## mjr (1 Nov 2019)

Shearwater Missile said:


> People can`t be trusted in not using their phones whilst in control of a motor vehicle. I say shut the phone in the boot if it is only the driver of the vehicle as it seems they are the worst offenders. Only allow a phone for passengers but even then it is a distraction. The Aussies don`t allow alcohol inside a vehicle it has to be in the boot. I`am sure people will shoot me down on this one.


If you add glove box, I'm ok with it. I seriously don't want to be opening the boot if I break down on the side of a main road - I just want to be getting clear of the car before it gets hit and calling rescue from a safe location.

Also, idiots will just connect bluetooth controllers to it, even in the boot. I'd expect to see bluetooth slave screen displays on sale within days if they're not also outlawed.


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## Shearwater Missile (1 Nov 2019)

mjr said:


> If you add glove box, I'm ok with it. I seriously don't want to be opening the boot if I break down on the side of a main road - I just want to be getting clear of the car before it gets hit and calling rescue from a safe location.
> 
> Also, idiots will just connect bluetooth controllers to it, even in the boot. I'd expect to see bluetooth slave screen displays on sale within days if they're not also outlawed.


Actually I was going to put glove box, you are right. It just needs to be easier to police so that there is no or little doubt. Just think though. Remember the days before mobile phones ? Life was a lot simpler then. Although like most devices that are supposed to may like easier but in fact actually make it worse. Just too many distractions whilst driving or cycling as I have seen cyclists ( people on bikes then) no hands on bars but operating their phones, now they are clever because I can`t do that !


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## mjr (1 Nov 2019)

Shearwater Missile said:


> Actually I was going to put glove box, you are right. It just needs to be easier to police so that there is no or little doubt. Just think though. Remember the days before mobile phones ?


Not really  How old are you? 

One difference is that before mobiles were everywhere, there were more breakdown phones and pay phones along main roads.



> Life was a lot simpler then. Although like most devices that are supposed to may like easier but in fact actually make it worse. Just too many distractions whilst driving or cycling as I have seen cyclists ( people on bikes then) no hands on bars but operating their phones, now they are clever because I can`t do that !


Shouldn't ban things just because you're jealous. Phoney cyclists are mainly a danger to themselves. Phoney drivers are a danger to everyone.


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## Drago (1 Nov 2019)

By law all,mobile phones should be fitted with semtex which detonates when a driver fiddles with it while driving. Not a large charge, just enough to blow a hand off and leave them with a reminder.


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## Profpointy (1 Nov 2019)

I never make phone calls whilst driving and whilst I previously had a proper car kit found making calls very distracting so haven't bothered getting one subsequently - yet I find the GPS map thing, especially the spoken directions version very helpful - is this to be banned too?

Ah well, back to map draped over the passenger seat I suppose


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## classic33 (1 Nov 2019)

mjr said:


> Not really  How old are you?
> 
> One difference is that before mobiles were everywhere, there were more breakdown phones and pay phones along main roads.
> 
> Shouldn't ban things just because you're jealous. Phoney cyclists are mainly a danger to themselves. Phoney drivers are a danger to everyone.


Anyone who uses a mobile, whilst in motion in or on a road vehicle is a danger to other road users, and themselves.

Reason, their attention isn't fully on the road in front of them. We, cyclists are no less prone to distraction than any other road user. From pedestrians upto articulated lorry drivers. You are "in charge" but not concentrating on keeping your vehicle.


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## Bonefish Blues (1 Nov 2019)

tom73 said:


> By the sounds of it this won't be coming till at the earliest spring next year.
> How many more will get off till then I wonder?


They aren't getting off anything. They aren't committing an offence.


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## Bonefish Blues (1 Nov 2019)

classic33 said:


> Anyone who uses a mobile, whilst in motion in or on a road vehicle is a danger to other road users, and themselves.
> 
> Reason, their attention isn't fully on the road in front of them. We, cyclists are no less prone to distraction than any other road user. From pedestrians upto articulated lorry drivers. You are "in charge" but not concentrating on keeping your vehicle.


And yet there seems to be no plan to ban the walkie talkie type of comms devices (cf Top Gear car to car communication). Is that because the police use them, I wonder?


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## classic33 (1 Nov 2019)

Bonefish Blues said:


> And yet there seems to be no plan to ban the walkie talkie type of comms devices (cf Top Gear car to car communication). Is that because the police use them, I wonder?


As do Paramedics in/on single crewed vehicles. Fire & Rescue, again in single crewed vehicles.

Multiple crewed vehicles tend to have a second person assigned to the radio, but not always. Ambulances on _"Blue and Twos"_ with a person in the back springs to mind.


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## Slick (1 Nov 2019)

Shearwater Missile said:


> People can`t be trusted in not using their phones whilst in control of a motor vehicle. I say shut the phone in the boot if it is only the driver of the vehicle as it seems they are the worst offenders. Only allow a phone for passengers but even then it is a distraction. The Aussies don`t allow alcohol inside a vehicle it has to be in the boot. I`am sure people will shoot me down on this one.


My work phone now won't accept calls if it senses I'm moving, even if I'm on a train. It will take the message and not notify me of the message or missed call until I'm stationary for some time. Probably more about their risk assessment than actually solving an issue, but still a bit of a clue as to where they're going.


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## tom73 (2 Nov 2019)

Bonefish Blues said:


> They aren't getting off anything. They aren't committing an offence.


Not under the current law no but equally they can still be charged with driving without due care and attention. 
Provided the boys in blue use the law we already have.


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## tom73 (2 Nov 2019)

Bonefish Blues said:


> And yet there seems to be no plan to ban the walkie talkie type of comms devices (cf Top Gear car to car communication). Is that because the police use them, I wonder?


Again already covered if it can be shown such use was unsafe then driving without due care and attention can be used.


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## NorthernDave (2 Nov 2019)

Of course, most new cars now come with a touchscreen in the middle of the dashboard that your mobile will connect to via Android Auto, Apple Car Play, or whatever.
So you can faff about with all the features your phone to your heart's content without taking it out of your pocket.

Just as distracting, possibly more distracting, but seemingly not covered by this change of law?


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## Phaeton (2 Nov 2019)

I have to admit I didn't know it wasn't illegal to film using your phone whilst driving.


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## G3CWI (2 Nov 2019)

Phaeton said:


> Like radio's & cigarettes?


Yes. Why not? Anything that distracts from the main task is bad.


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## Phaeton (2 Nov 2019)

G3CWI said:


> Yes. Why not?


I'm not arguing I'm just asking, but where do you stop, I've always thought smoking in a car should be banned, I also lost a friend back in 1976 at the inquest it was reported she hit the car coming the way because it appeared she wasn't looking at the road but down at the dashboard it is thought she may have been adjusting the radio but we will never know. But do you stop a driver eating, drinking, how about children? They can be a very big distraction, I've seen drivers looking over their shoulders whilst still driving forward.


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## Slick (2 Nov 2019)

G3CWI said:


> Yes. Why not? Anything that distracts from the main task is bad.


I know eating and drinking are classed as the same level of distraction as using the phone as is using hands free and if you have an accident whilst doing any of them you should be charged with dangerous driving.


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## mjr (2 Nov 2019)

All of you that have to look down at the dashboard instead of having speed, revs and so on projected onto the windscreen should be charged with careless driving!


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## Drago (2 Nov 2019)

Eating and drinking are not offences. The offence only occurs when the driver is demonstrably not in proper control. The mere act of simply lifting a kit kat finger to your lips while driving is not an offence in any way, but if the driver is looking at their lap for 10 seconds at a time while they prepare a fondue, or weaving all over the place while the wrestle with a recalcitrant Doritos packet then we do have an offence.

The camera technology does exist to catch people at it with phones and has been well tried and is reliable and mature. It is user to good effect in Australia, but can't be used here because that would be seen as a somehow unfair to the oppressed motorist.


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## Shearwater Missile (2 Nov 2019)

Phaeton said:


> I'm not arguing I'm just asking, but where do you stop, I've always thought smoking in a car should be banned, I also lost a friend back in 1976 at the inquest it was reported she hit the car coming the way because it appeared she wasn't looking at the road but down at the dashboard it is thought she may have been adjusting the radio but we will never know. But do you stop a driver eating, drinking, how about children? They can be a very big distraction, I've seen drivers looking over their shoulders whilst still driving forward.


 I remember a head on accident in the late 70`s just outside my house. The driver at fault had his head down playing with the radio, the radios in those days was a bit of an after thought and often mounted on the transmission tunnel or just above, which was the case here. It only took a few seconds averting the eyes from the road, drifting to the centre and a 90 degree bend approaching. The only saving grace here was that neither car was driving particularly fast so no major injuries, just a distraught couple who were the victims. Had it been today in the cocooned vehicles at speed it would have been worse.


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## G3CWI (2 Nov 2019)

Phaeton said:


> I've seen drivers looking over their shoulders whilst still driving forward.



Something that I do every time that I change lanes on a motorway. Like many vehicles, mine has a blind spot not covered by the mirrors.


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## Phaeton (2 Nov 2019)

G3CWI said:


> Something that I do every time that I change lanes on a motorway. Like many vehicles, mine has a blind spot not covered by the mirrors.


Nice snip, as a motorcyclist it's my natural way of doing it, however that has rock all to do with children in the back seats.


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## classic33 (3 Nov 2019)

mjr said:


> All of you that have to look down at the dashboard instead of *having speed, revs and so on projected onto the windscreen* should be charged with careless driving!


What would that stop you seeing though?


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## mjr (3 Nov 2019)

classic33 said:


> What would that stop you seeing though?


Nothing. As you can see, the display is in a corner and transparent.


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## Drago (3 Nov 2019)

HuD solves little in a car, where its isn't difficult to move our heads to view instruments due to G forces while manoeuvring. The brief period of attention diversion, and time taken to re-establish focus on the outside environment is not significantly different from time taken when viewing conventional instruments. Indeed, it has been shown that experienced motorists who dont drive around with the stereo turned up to 11 can hold speed extremely accurately without referent to the instruments at all, believed to be due to the subconscious wort of the brain keying onto the engine tone. That'll be problematic in electric cars with no such aural cues.


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## mjr (3 Nov 2019)

Drago said:


> HuD solves little in a car, where its isn't difficult to move our heads to view instruments due to G forces while manoeuvring. The brief period of attention diversion, and time taken to re-establish focus on the outside environment is not significantly different from time taken when viewing conventional instruments. Indeed, it has been shown that experienced motorists who dont drive around with the stereo turned up to 11 can hold speed extremely accurately without referent to the instruments at all, believed to be due to the subconscious wort of the brain keying onto the engine tone. That'll be problematic in electric cars with no such aural cues.


I'm pretty sure that bit about engine tone is not true for people with impaired or no hearing. We know about a quarter of drivers have eyesight too crap to drive so how many do you think have imperfect hearing?

And as you note, electrics don't have as noisy motors. I also think HuD is easier to notice change, especially when lots of segments extinguish, as they do going from 69 to 70(mph) or 109 to 110(km/h). I think it would be even easier for more limits if numbers ending zero were in a different colour but I've not seen one do that yet.


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## Arjimlad (4 Nov 2019)

This clot spent the whole time waiting at the red light scrolling up & down on his dash-mounted mobile phone, then when the lights changed carried on hunched forwards, flicking away at it. I have therefore reported him for not being in proper control.


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## glasgowcyclist (4 Nov 2019)

Phaeton said:


> Like radio's & cigarettes?





G3CWI said:


> Yes. Why not? Anything that distracts from the main task is bad.



Those are already in the non-exhaustive list of avoidable distractions while driving that could result in a prosecution. Just because there isn't a specific law against a specific act doesn't mean it's without consequence.
See https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/road-traffic-charging

_"The following examples of circumstances that are likely to be characterised as dangerous driving are derived from decided cases and the SGC Definitive Guideline:

•driving whilst avoidably and dangerously distracted such as whilst reading a newspaper/map, talking to and looking at a passenger, selecting and lighting a cigarette or by adjusting the controls of electronic equipment such as a radio, hands-free mobile phone or satellite navigation equipment;..."_


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## Bonefish Blues (4 Nov 2019)

Arjimlad said:


> This clot spent the whole time waiting at the red light scrolling up & down on his dash-mounted mobile phone, then when the lights changed carried on hunched forwards, flicking away at it. I have therefore reported him for not being in proper control.
> View attachment 491750


Unlikely to fly though, I think. Mounted up high, he's looking forward, and it's not (yet) illegal per se to do that on a phone in a holder.

Whether it should be (I think it should) is different, of course. I voice control things if I need to (not sure the last occasion when I had to, having said that), which works just fine.


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## Drago (4 Nov 2019)

You have to demonstrate an actual lack of control, eg, no hands on the wheel whilst in motion, the car weaving all over the place, etc. It has to be an actual lack of control, not a speculative one.


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## Arjimlad (4 Nov 2019)

Oh well, nothing ventured etc. 👍


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## RichK (5 Nov 2019)

Points need doubling from six to twelve so it's an instant ban (I'd be OK with 1-3 months for a first offense) with none of this "hardship" nonsense


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## Bonefish Blues (5 Nov 2019)

I'd settle for enforcement


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## Tenkaykev (5 Nov 2019)

If a driver is convicted of using a phone whilst driving and gets fined and has points put on his/her licence, does the money go to the exchequer? 

If so then perhaps increasing the amount that can be fined, with 50% going direct to the local Police Authority Budget might encourage the Police to enforce the law more often.


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## mjr (6 Nov 2019)

Tenkaykev said:


> If a driver is convicted of using a phone whilst driving and gets fined and has points put on his/her licence, does the money go to the exchequer?
> 
> If so then perhaps increasing the amount that can be fined, with 50% going direct to the local Police Authority Budget might encourage the Police to enforce the law more often.


Then you'll get a load of whining about "war on motorists" and "the police working on commission" in the newspapers until the politicians fold.

We've seen similar before: other countries have CCTV cars driving around and sending out tickets in the post for parking offences (including obstructing solid-line cycle lanes and cycle tracks) and England doesn't because Cameron's government put in law that a ticket has to be stuck to the windscreen in order to hinder enforcement. They can't find time to widen London's pavement parking ban to the whole country, but they can find time to do shoot like that.

And now another Conservative minister announces a loophole closure when it just happens to be too late to implement it? It is yet another load of Boris!


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## glasgowcyclist (6 Nov 2019)

mjr said:


> Cameron's government put in law that a ticket has to be stuck to the windscreen in order to hinder enforcement.



I read a recent tweet about this and the response was that there's no need to affix it to the windscreen specifically, and that in some areas the practise is to take a photograph and send the ticket by post. 

https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q725.htm
_"Some local areas may have different methods of notification and will not issue a parking ticket in this manner. For example, Officers/Wardens may take a photograph using a digital time stamp and issue the ticket via post. There are also CCTV systems covering parking places which work on the same principle."_


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## mjr (6 Nov 2019)

glasgowcyclist said:


> I read a recent tweet about this and the response was that there's no need to affix it to the windscreen specifically, and that in some areas the practise is to take a photograph and send the ticket by post.
> 
> https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q725.htm
> _"Some local areas may have different methods of notification and will not issue a parking ticket in this manner. For example, Officers/Wardens may take a photograph using a digital time stamp and issue the ticket via post. There are also CCTV systems covering parking places which work on the same principle."_


Doesn't that police answer only apply when Police Officers or Traffic Wardens are issuing tickets? That's only about 32 out of 370 districts/boroughs now.

Parking Civil Enforcement Officers are restricted by https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/1001/regulation/2/made which requires the ticket to be served "(a) by fixing it to the vehicle; or (b)by giving it to the person appearing to the civil enforcement officer to be in charge of the vehicle."


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## BoldonLad (6 Nov 2019)

Tenkaykev said:


> If a driver is convicted of using a phone whilst driving and gets fined and has points put on his/her licence, does the money go to the exchequer?
> 
> If so then perhaps increasing the amount that can be fined, with 50% going direct to the local Police Authority Budget might encourage the Police to enforce the law more often.



As much as I dislike use of mobile phone whilst driving, isn't the suggested approach a bit too close to the mess caused by cowboy clamping companies?


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## Drago (6 Nov 2019)

I dont thinking would, as u like the parking taliban individual bobbies wouldnt be incentivised - that would be unlawful.

But I disagree with that course any way. The dibble should be properly funded to enforce these laws in the first place.


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## glasgowcyclist (6 Nov 2019)

mjr said:


> Doesn't that police answer only apply when Police Officers or Traffic Wardens are issuing tickets?



I honestly don’t know.


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## classic33 (6 Nov 2019)

The parking ticket placement on the windscreen is a throwback to when there were Traffic Wardens, not Civil Enforcement Officers. Placed on the windscreen, with the wiper holding it in place. Now they use the adhesive "envelopes", to avoid claims of damage to the vehicle.

Local enforcement is done using both methods, with the windscreen envelopes being replaced entirely within the next year.


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