# More positive news



## Drago (9 May 2020)

The world is slowly turning our way. Whether it will turn very far very fast remains to be seen, but enough little pebbles and one day we'll have an avalanche...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-52592421


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## roley poley (9 May 2020)

I think what holds people back is the distance of a commute has grown further than they can walk or cycle


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## Phaeton (9 May 2020)

It's very quiet on the roads today, maybe due to it being the day after the BH, but I did 30 miles this morning, probably 12 miles on the road & I reckon I saw more bikes than cars, clearly very unscientific & maybe I had a biased view.


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## Drago (9 May 2020)

roley poley said:


> I think what holds people back is the distance of a commute has grown further than they can walk or cycle


Yeah, I hear that a lot from people who work 6 or 7 miles away.


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## newfhouse (9 May 2020)

roley poley said:


> I think what holds people back is the distance of a commute has grown further than they can walk or cycle


Perhaps in some cases further than they *think* they can walk or cycle, and that thought can sometimes be changed with the right incentives.


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## tom73 (9 May 2020)

I really hope so some great stuff is going at the moment sadly not round my way. 
I asked my local council about this and what safe cycle ways they had planned.
After a few emails later I got called a zealot all I did was try and explain that white paint or a few blue signs are not safe or good to anyone.
I also tried explaining that a bike is more than a thing for a Sunday afternoon potter down the park.
They say having spoken to cycle groups they got told they prefer to cycle off road. I asked what inc the 2 road clubs.
So from that they think it will get more people cycling if they fund off road routes. Instead of "making already congested roads "safe" "
I may try the metro mayor but he's more a blame game man than let's see what we can do man.


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## rogerzilla (9 May 2020)

Will people keep cycling in foul winter weather when the roads are full of careless and aggressive drivers again? It takes a particular kind of hard nut to cycle-commute all year round.


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## HMS_Dave (9 May 2020)

As always. i will believe it, when i see it...


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## newfhouse (9 May 2020)

rogerzilla said:


> Will people keep cycling in foul winter weather when the roads are full of careless and aggressive drivers again? It takes a particular kind of hard nut to cycle-commute all year round.


There’s bound to be a drop off, but once you establish it as a habit, and if workplaces see the benefits and become a bit friendlier towards it, I hope we will maintain at least some of the gains.


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## Phaeton (9 May 2020)

Drago said:


> Yeah, I hear that a lot from people who work 6 or 7 miles away.


I think that's a simplistic view, to walk that's 2 hours each side of your day, assuming you are fit enough to walk 30-40 miles a week, do you? Riding 6-7 each way is still a commitment, it's going to be an hour each way with potential change of clothes, maybe having to shower/dry out. My Grandfather tried 8 miles each way in the early 1920's then doing a days work on his feet all day, he managed it for around 6 months & then moved house to be within walking distance of less than a mile, not everybody has that choice.

I'm hoping that all those that have worked from home have found it successful, that their employees have found it has worked, or has found what needs to happen to make it work, then hopefully introduce it as the norm & rotate the staff that needs to come into the office. Hopefully 40-60% of the staff can work at home for any one day & only have to go in 1-2 times a week.


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## NorthernDave (9 May 2020)

It's a positive sign, let's hope it's better implemented than the much vaunted but ultimately frustrating and underused Leeds-Bradford super cycle way which for all the good sections is frankly horrendous in far too many places.

I've not seen it mentioned much, but a more effective long term way of reducing the number of cars on the road might be to have people working from home for 2 or 3 days a week. It's already been proved it can be done and that big companies don't need all their staff in huge office buildings. 
A bit of common sense could easily see traffic levels reduced by a third or more.


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## HMS_Dave (9 May 2020)

Phaeton said:


> I think that's a simplistic view, to walk that's 2 hours each side of your day, assuming you are fit enough to walk 30-40 miles a week, do you? Riding 6-7 each way is still a commitment, it's going to be an hour each way with potential change of clothes, maybe having to shower/dry out. *My Grandfather tried 8 miles each way in the early 1920's then doing a days work on his feet all day, he managed it for around 6 months & then moved house to be within walking distance of less than a mile, not everybody has that choice.*
> 
> I'm hoping that all those that have worked from home have found it successful, that their employees have found it has worked, or has found what needs to happen to make it work, then hopefully introduce it as the norm & rotate the staff that needs to come into the office. Hopefully 40-60% of the staff can work at home for any one day & only have to go in 1-2 times a week.



What your Grandfather did was wholeheartedly sensible. I don't think it's entirely beyond the realms of possibility to still move today. But not only that Bicycles are by far more rider friendly as in they are lighter have lower gears and have less rolling resistance these days. In addition we also now have E-bikes which are perfect for such a job. There is the weather naturally, but that comes down to the person. In saying that mind, I don't think anybody who hates a drop of rain is ever going to be changed....


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## Shut Up Legs (9 May 2020)

Drago said:


> The world is slowly turning our way. Whether it will turn very far very fast remains to be seen, but enough little pebbles and one day we'll have an avalanche...
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-52592421


What worries me the most is what was mentioned in the article: people will be afraid to use public transport, and so the roads will end up being choked with even more cars than before, making cycling less safe.  Australia will be no different to the UK in this regard, as car use is just as entrenched here.


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## snorri (9 May 2020)

roley poley said:


> I think what holds people back is the distance of a commute has grown further than they can walk or cycle


Private car usage is the problem.
The distance of commutes has increased due to the relatively low cost of private motoring, the increased volume of motor traffic has made cycling a less attractive option even over shorter distances.


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## Phaeton (9 May 2020)

HMS_Dave said:


> What your Grandfather did was wholeheartedly sensible.


It was, but the world has moved on since then, he came out of school, did his apprenticeship, went off to war, came back, got a job with a firm, stayed for only a few months, moved to another & then spent the next 40+ years there. That rarely happens now, in fact Linkedin suggest people will have 10 different jobs before they are 40 & between 12 & 15 in their lifetime. are you expecting them to move each time? We bought our house 35 years ago, I've had multiple jobs since but never felt secure enough in any of them to uproot my family & move.



snorri said:


> Private car usage is the problem.
> The distance of commutes has increased due to the relatively low cost of private motoring, the increased volume of motor traffic has made cycling a less attractive option even over shorter distances.


Although I agree with your first point, I'm not sure it's the cost, it's more than that, it's the culture, both my kids could drive at 12, they were taught to drive on airfields, at 17 there was already a car sat on the drive with L-plates on, they both passed their tests within a month of turning 17, they are both good drivers although they both have issues with speed limits outside of 30 zones. But to them it's a way of life, yep caused by me & the wife, we are to blame, but that was the way is was 15+ years ago.


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## HMS_Dave (9 May 2020)

Phaeton said:


> It was, but the world has moved on since then, he came out of school, did his apprenticeship, went off to war, came back, got a job with a firm, stayed for only a few months, moved to another & then spent the next 40+ years there. That rarely happens now, in fact Linkedin suggest people will have 10 different jobs before they are 40 & between 12 & 15 in their lifetime. are you expecting them to move each time? We bought our house 35 years ago, I've had multiple jobs since but never felt secure enough in any of them to uproot my family & move.



No, i never said they should either, that would be preposterous for each job. But those that want to move to be closer to their employment, still could...

Also, that study by linkedin doesn't take into account distance to job. It is entirely possible to have 10 jobs within a very reasonable commuting distance in most large towns and cities...


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## newfhouse (9 May 2020)

Shut Up Legs said:


> What worries me the most is what was mentioned in the article: people will be afraid to use public transport, and so the roads will end up being choked with even more cars than before, making cycling less safe.  Australia will be no different to the UK in this regard, as car use is just as entrenched here.


It’s a worry so both carrots and sticks need to be deployed.

Carrots: 
Enhance the existing tax free cycle to work scheme to cover a sensible amount for e-bikes.
Give employers tax advantages for installing and maintaining workplace facilities - showers, lockers, bike parking etc.

Sticks:
Tax employers and employees for on site private car parking spaces.


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## numbnuts (9 May 2020)

I think it all depends on what your job is, if your a pen pusher well yes, but I was a Blacksmith and after a 10 hour shift the only thing I could do was to stagger down the the car park, if you wanted me to cycle 10-15 miles you would have found me dead on the road with fatigue.


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## Drago (9 May 2020)

rogerzilla said:


> Will people keep cycling in foul winter weather when the roads are full of careless and aggressive drivers again? It takes a particular kind of hard nut to cycle-commute all year round.


I am, or was, that nutter. Both traffic volume and average speeds rise on the good weather, so any thoughts that you're safer from being wiped out by a car on a nice day are decidedly wrong.


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## All uphill (9 May 2020)

The government will know that many commuters will not want to use mass transit this summer. Some of the commuters may be able to wfh, others not, and are likely to jump in their cars causing huge congestion.

The quickest and cheapest solution is to encourage cycling and walking. 

Unfortunately my local county council suffers from Not Invented Here syndrome.
We, in the local campaign group, are keeping up the pressure!


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## Phaeton (9 May 2020)

I also think that after this is all over there will be a lot who will just be happy to have a job, no matter how far they have to commute.


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## Brandane (9 May 2020)

I remember years ago having a lengthy "discussion" on this forum with certain members who used to be regulars on the politics board, but have mostly flounced off now. Hallelujah . It was regarding whether or not I "needed" a car to get to work. At the time I was doing agency work, driving HGV's. No fixed routine with regards to hours or even workplace. I was regularly doing 6/7 am starts, 25 miles away from home (at best), and shifts varying from 10 to 15 hour days. A 25 mile each way commute on busy, narrow trunk roads (A760 Haylie Brae if anyone knows it ), in the dark and probably wind and rain too as this is the west of Scotland. Not a chance in hell of me risking my life and health on that one.

I think what I'm trying to say is that everyone's circumstances are different. The days of moving house to be closer to work are gone, too. That's thanks to short term contracts, or NO contracts. Jobs for life seem to be a thing of the past, we need to keep upskilling or whatever the feck they call it this week, then moving on when the next lot of redundancies come along. I've had to do it myself several times in recent history, and each reskilling has been expensive. £2000 for a clean but utterly useless HGV class 1 licence, anyone? It allows me the privilege of driving artics for about £11 per hour (less 45 minutes for statutory and compulsory break). Feck that. Especially when they make you do CPC training every 5 years, another £400 down the drain (not including the 5 days loss of earnings for actually attending the courses)..

I now work as a part time handyman at a care home 1 mile from home. In February, in case we've all forgotten, there was hardly a day when there weren't gale force winds and heavy rain. Even for a reasonably keen and weather beaten cyclist, I was sorely tempted to take the car some mornings. Actually, being an honest type, there were mornings when I did take the car.

Mass cycle commuting outside of the big cities? Pie in the sky idea.


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## Phaeton (9 May 2020)

But there are things that could be done, let's start early & think of the change in the future, there are 2 primary schools in the village (do they even call them primary anymore?) neither of them have an secure facilities for scooters or bikes, neither are accessible safely by scooter or bike. From the age of about 6 I walked myself to school. over a corn field, or the long way round down the road, but it was perfectly safe with no roads to cross. Both schools in the village could have shelters built, all the roads that need to be crossed could have pedestrian crossings.


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## newfhouse (9 May 2020)

Brandane said:


> Mass cycle commuting outside of the big cities? Pie in the sky idea.


Most of the population lives and works in the big cities, so let’s start where it *is* possible to make a change.


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## Phaeton (9 May 2020)

newfhouse said:


> Most of the population lives and works in the big cities, so let’s start where it *is* possible to make a change.


That's an interesting statement, do they, I have always envisaged that more people live over 8+ miles from a city centre, be interesting to know which is fact


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## Slick (9 May 2020)

numbnuts said:


> I think it all depends on what your job is, if your a pen pusher well yes, but I was a Blacksmith and after a 10 hour shift the only thing I could do was to stagger down the the car park, if you wanted me to cycle 10-15 miles you would have found me dead on the road with fatigue.


There was the longest time when I did all sorts of hours and was only fit for my bed when they were done, so I get exactly what you mean.


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## Slick (9 May 2020)

Phaeton said:


> That's an interesting statement, do they, I have always envisaged that more people live over 8+ miles from a city centre, be interesting to know which is fact


I did wonder myself if even there would be a difference between north and south.


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## newfhouse (9 May 2020)

Phaeton said:


> That's an interesting statement, do they, I have always envisaged that more people live over 8+ miles from a city centre, be interesting to know which is fact


I guess it depends on how you define cities. My point was that there are millions of people within easy (e-)bike range of work, even if many are not.


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## Slick (9 May 2020)

Brandane said:


> I remember years ago having a lengthy "discussion" on this forum with certain members who used to be regulars on the politics board, but have mostly flounced off now. Hallelujah . It was regarding whether or not I "needed" a car to get to work. At the time I was doing agency work, driving HGV's. No fixed routine with regards to hours or even workplace. I was regularly doing 6/7 am starts, 25 miles away from home (at best), and shifts varying from 10 to 15 hour days. A 25 mile each way commute on busy, narrow trunk roads (A760 Haylie Brae if anyone knows it ), in the dark and probably wind and rain too as this is the west of Scotland. Not a chance in hell of me risking my life and health on that one.
> 
> I think what I'm trying to say is that everyone's circumstances are different. The days of moving house to be closer to work are gone, too. That's thanks to short term contracts, or NO contracts. Jobs for life seem to be a thing of the past, we need to keep upskilling or whatever the feck they call it this week, then moving on when the next lot of redundancies come along. I've had to do it myself several times in recent history, and each reskilling has been expensive. £2000 for a clean but utterly useless HGV class 1 licence, anyone? It allows me the privilege of driving artics for about £11 per hour (less 45 minutes for statutory and compulsory break). Feck that. Especially when they make you do CPC training every 5 years, another £400 down the drain (not including the 5 days loss of earnings for actually attending the courses)..
> 
> ...


I know exactly where you are and cycling the Haylie Brae on a cold and wet January morning are not for me.


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## Brandane (9 May 2020)

newfhouse said:


> Most of the population lives and works in the big cities, so let’s start where it *is* possible to make a change.


Really?
Scotland's population is approximately 5.5 million.
We have 3 big cities, Glasgow (population 600,000), Edinburgh (500,000) and Aberdeen (210,000).
So from a total of 5.5 million, 1,310,000 live in the 3 largest cities. Over 4 million don't.


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## newfhouse (9 May 2020)

Brandane said:


> Really?
> Scotland's population is approximately 5.5 million.
> We have 3 big cities, Glasgow (population 600,000), Edinburgh (500,000) and Aberdeen (210,000).
> So from a total of 5.5 million, 1,310,000 live in the 3 largest cities. Over 4 million don't.


Fair enough, but within the UK I think that’s probably an unusual population distribution.
I confess that my direct experience is of working in London, which is less of a city and more an agglomeration of towns that probably account for about a quarter of the (English) total. My substantive point is that active travel may not suit everyone, but it could be made to work for many, so let’s start there.


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## HMS_Dave (9 May 2020)

Brandane said:


> Really?
> Scotland's population is approximately 5.5 million.
> We have 3 big cities, Glasgow (population 600,000), Edinburgh (500,000) and Aberdeen (210,000).
> So from a total of 5.5 million, 1,310,000 live in the 3 largest cities. Over 4 million don't.


Indeed, but that doesn't mean 4 million live out in the sticks in a 'last of the summer wine' scenario...

Large towns would make up the bulk of most situations in many developed countries.

Like i say, moving with your job is possible and many still do, but im not saying i would expect people to do that either, as you rightly point out, job security is a mitigating factor.


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## Phaeton (9 May 2020)

newfhouse said:


> I confess that my direct experience is of working in London,


Yep I figured that, eventually you will realise that London is not the be-all & end-all of the UK or even England, you live in a bubble which contains 15% of England & bears no relevance to what the other 85% do.


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## Brooks (9 May 2020)

I live in London and I've just heard the minister on the radio saying 50% of all journeys in London are 3 miles or under. So there's massive untapped room to get more people walking and cycling, I think a lot of people will be wary of getting back on public transport. Fingers crossed they can get this right as its a once in a lifetime opportunity to make some valuable changes.


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## Brooks (9 May 2020)

Phaeton said:


> Yep I figured that, eventually you will realise that London is not the be-all & end-all of the UK or even England, you live in a bubble which contains 15% of England & bears no relevance to what the other 85% do.


But if we can lead by example in London other towns and cities would follow the lead. We can only hope for meaningful improvement all round.


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## Slick (9 May 2020)

Brooks said:


> I live in London and I've just heard the minister on the radio saying 50% of all journeys in London are 3 miles or under. So there's massive untapped room to get more people walking and cycling, I think a lot of people will be wary of getting back on public transport. Fingers crossed they can get this right as its a once in a lifetime opportunity to make some valuable changes.


He didn't say London, that stat was UK wide.


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## dodgy (9 May 2020)

I worry that the government delivers on its promise for more active travel money, but in return we'll get a load of Local Authority road paint, ill thought out plans, bad practices ultimately being a complete and utter waste of time. OK if you have someone like Chris Boardman in Manchester as a figurehead to bang heads on it.


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## Brandane (9 May 2020)

I've just been listening to some of the Government plans for cycling. All good IMHO, but I feel they should be more brutal and tell the public that they are going to be actively discouraging private car use, rather than just coming across as pro cycling. Tell them it's going to be much more expensive and inconvenient to drive, and they might just sit up and listen.


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## tom73 (9 May 2020)

Brandane said:


> I've just been listening to some of the Government plans for cycling. All good IMHO, but I feel they should be more brutal and tell the public that they are going to be actively discouraging private car use, rather than just coming across as pro cycling. Tell them it's going to be much more expensive and inconvenient to drive, and they might just sit up and listen.



Don't want to frighted the horses just yet go all out now and we may end up. Going backwards in what ever gains we can get out this situation.


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## Phaeton (9 May 2020)

https://www.smmt.co.uk/industry-topics/uk-automotive/ this is the reason it's not as simple as we would like to think, 



> The UK automotive industry is a vital part of the UK economy worth more than *£82 billion turnover* and adding *£18.6 billion value *to the UK economy.
> 
> With some *168,000* people employed directly in manufacturing and in excess of *823,000* across the wider automotive industry, it accounts for *14.4% of total UK export of goods*, worth *£44 billion*, and invests *£3.75 billion* each year in automotive R&D.


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## newfhouse (9 May 2020)

Phaeton said:


> Yep I figured that, eventually you will realise that London is not the be-all & end-all of the UK or even England, you live in a bubble which contains 15% of England & bears no relevance to what the other 85% do.


I already know it’s not the whole country, thanks, but I think pretending that we don’t have anything in common is unhelpful. I believe there are other well populated towns and cities that would benefit from increased active travel too. I‘d be surprised if we didn’t agree about that.

Like it or not, the area inside the M25 accounts for a substantial fraction of the working population. Arguing whether it is 15 or 20% misses the point. London is very well suited to cycle commuting yet has arguably some of the worst traffic congestion and car derived pollution in the country. There are ways to at least partly fix that.


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## matticus (9 May 2020)

Phaeton said:


> https://www.smmt.co.uk/industry-topics/uk-automotive/ this is the reason it's not as simple as we would like to think,


Of course no-one else knew that the motor industry was a big thing. Thanks for your input 👍


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## snorri (9 May 2020)

Brandane said:


> I've just been listening to some of the Government plans for cycling.


That'll be the plans for cycling in England, I suspect.
The sooner England gets its own parliament the better, it would clear up a lot of things.


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## Slick (9 May 2020)

snorri said:


> That'll be the plans for cycling in England, I suspect.
> The sooner England gets its own parliament the better, it would clear up a lot of things.


Definitely, they made that clear from the outset. Hopefully it will put a bit of pressure on the Scottish government to come up with something similar. We can but hope.


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## snorri (9 May 2020)

Slick said:


> Definitely, they made that clear from the outset. Hopefully it will put a bit of pressure on the Scottish government to come up with something similar. We can but hope.


They came up with it last month.


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## Slick (9 May 2020)

snorri said:


> They came up with it last month.


This? 

https://www.transport-network.co.uk...m-for-pop-up-cycling-and-walking-routes/16621


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## classic33 (9 May 2020)

rogerzilla said:


> Will people keep cycling in foul winter weather when the roads are full of careless and aggressive drivers again? It takes a particular kind of hard nut to cycle-commute all year round.


I did for the best part of three years, day and night/early morning. Nearly all of it on "A" roads.


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## snorri (9 May 2020)

Slick said:


> This?
> 
> https://www.transport-network.co.uk...m-for-pop-up-cycling-and-walking-routes/16621


Yes


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## matticus (9 May 2020)

rogerzilla said:


> Will people keep cycling in foul winter weather when the roads are full of careless and aggressive drivers again? It takes a particular kind of hard nut to cycle-commute all year round.


Who knows? And what is the problem with getting more riding in the good weather?
(the countries with lots of cyclists still seem to get loads in winter. I'm sure you've seen plenty of examples)

(have you joined the _grumpy old bastartds, with nothing but negativity to contribute_ club? God knows you'll have plenty of company here ... )


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## classic33 (9 May 2020)

Phaeton said:


> But there are things that could be done, let's start early & think of the change in the future, there are 2 primary schools in the village (do they even call them primary anymore?) neither of them have an secure facilities for scooters or bikes, neither are accessible safely by scooter or bike. From the age of about 6 I walked myself to school. over a corn field, or the long way round down the road, but it was perfectly safe with no roads to cross. Both schools in the village could have shelters built, all the roads that need to be crossed could have pedestrian crossings.


Local primary schools, 100 yards & 800 yards from where I am, had cycle storage removed by the governors. One of whom was a ward Councillor. Similar situation in other local schools, no cycle parking. 

I caught a bus to infant/junior school, just outside the town centre. 10 minute walk from the town centre to school, alongside what was an extended work in progress on an "A" road. Phase 2 still to be completed. Parking was a problem them, two schools on opposite sides of the road. Now it's got buses as well.


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## Brooks (10 May 2020)

matticus said:


> Who knows? And what is the problem with getting more riding in the good weather?
> (the countries with lots of cyclists still seem to get loads in winter. I'm sure you've seen plenty of examples)
> 
> (have you joined the _grumpy old bastartds, with nothing but negativity to contribute_ club? God knows you'll have plenty of company here ... )


LBC were talking about it for a couple of hours today, got the usual idiots phoning up saying they work too far away to cycle (that one was only 3 miles) but talked about the weather as well. I'm not being funny but for me cycling generates warmth when I'm cycling in the winter. I'm far warmer cycling than waiting at a train station or bus stop. Everything was negative, " we need a shower after cycling" gawd knows those people can whine!😀


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## Blue Hills (10 May 2020)

roley poley said:


> I think what holds people back is the distance of a commute has grown further than they can walk or cycle


True, going to be a mega problem. Many many folk are going to have little chance of cycling into work in london. Ever since the 30s at least many folk have lived a long way from work. House prices have also driven many miles and miles out. The years have long gone when the inner city was full of poorer folk.
Of course lots more folk should cycle to work but i really wonder what this is going to do to london and other major cities.


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## sheddy (10 May 2020)

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/2-billion-package-to-create-new-era-for-cycling-and-walking

e-scooter trials ? 
eeek !


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## Phaeton (10 May 2020)

Free Park & Ride with lockers to store bikes (with a charging point) would be a good first step, with then safe traffic separated routes into the centre of the town/city


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## Slick (10 May 2020)

sheddy said:


> https://www.gov.uk/government/news/2-billion-package-to-create-new-era-for-cycling-and-walking
> 
> e-scooter trials ?
> eeek !


That was coming anyway, they have only brought that forward from next year. 

Should prove interesting on some bike lanes.


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## Phaeton (10 May 2020)

Slick said:


> That was coming anyway, they have only brought that forward from next year.
> 
> Should prove interesting on some bike lanes.


Depends what kind of e-scooter they are talking about, are they the stand on ones, the Go-ped type or are they the proper moped style scooters?


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## Drago (10 May 2020)

I see the Daily Mail have decried this emphasis on getting people out of their cars as a stark choice between catching coronavirus on public transport, or being "crushed to death" by a lorry while riding a bicycle. Their opinion, doubtless deliberate to inflame the masses and boosts readership, and influence is as dangerous as David Icke and 5G, or the anti vaccination crowd, and they really should be stopped.


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## tom73 (10 May 2020)

The statutory guidance which is effective as of yesterday. Makes things pretty clear what the government is asking for. 
"The government therefore expects local authorities to make significant changes to their road layouts to give more space to cyclists and pedestrians" The good old "mandatory cycle lane" get's a mention but explains that without added physical barrier it wont meet the changers needed. Can statutory guidance be used to get a council to do something or can they just file it and move one ?


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## tom73 (10 May 2020)

Phaeton said:


> Depends what kind of e-scooter they are talking about, are they the stand on ones, the Go-ped type or are they the proper moped style scooters?



The stand on type via street rental. Trial In 4 "future of transport zones" West Midlands Portsmouth and Southampton, the West of England Combined Authority, and Derby and Nottingham.


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## Slick (10 May 2020)

Phaeton said:


> Depends what kind of e-scooter they are talking about, are they the stand on ones, the Go-ped type or are they the proper moped style scooters?









I'm not sure if there will be additional restrictions but I think it's the stand on ones.


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## Drago (10 May 2020)

I like that - "no region is better equipped than the west midlands to test, review and implement trials..."

The same west midlands that screams blue murder when once a year some roads are closed for between 90 minutes and 4.5 hours to accommodate a cycling event? The same west midlands that ignores the road closures and deliberately runs marshals over? I can't think of a region morally or intellectually less suited to such trials.


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## Blue Hills (10 May 2020)

Drago said:


> I see the Daily Mail have decried this emphasis on getting people out of their cars as a stark choice between catching coronavirus on public transport, or being "crushed to death" by a lorry while riding a bicycle. Their opinion, doubtless deliberate to inflame the masses and boosts readership, and influence is as dangerous as David Icke and 5G, or the anti vaccination crowd, and they really should be stopped.


Did they offer any positive suggestions as to how crushings by lorries might be minimised?


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## Drago (10 May 2020)

No, alas, they simply suggested it as an inevitable consequence of not driving a car 2 miles to work.

BTW, I don't browse the mail because I approve of it. I read it on a know thy enemy basis, and because their reporters always make their excuses and leave when they realise they're in a knocking shop.


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## pawl (10 May 2020)

When I visited York last year I was surprised to see how many people were cycling at rush hour.Certainly appeared the local authorities had spent some cash marking cycle lanes.and I didn’t see any conflict between motorists and cyclists


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## dodgy (10 May 2020)

matticus said:


> Of course no-one else knew that the motor industry was a big thing. Thanks for your input 👍



Why the snottiness? @Phaeton made a valid point and included a link to pertinent information. I hadn't realise how big the numbers were actually.


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## NorthernDave (10 May 2020)

Drago said:


> I see the Daily Mail have decried this emphasis on getting people out of their cars as a stark choice between catching coronavirus on public transport, or being "crushed to death" by a lorry while riding a bicycle. Their opinion, doubtless deliberate to inflame the masses and boosts readership, and influence is as dangerous as David Icke and 5G, or the anti vaccination crowd, and they really should be stopped.


Look on the bright side - it's only a matter of time before they start calling for e-scooters to be registered, pay road tax, etc and call for them to be banned.
Might mean they leave cyclists alone for a few weeks...


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## tom73 (10 May 2020)

pawl said:


> When I visited York last year I was surprised to see how many people were cycling at rush hour.Certainly appeared the local authorities had spent some cash marking cycle lanes.and I didn’t see any conflict between motorists and cyclists



That will be the same LA who to make a pavement wider cones off the cycle lanes. 
https://road.cc/content/news/york-cones-cycle-lanes-widen-pavement-273165


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## Phaeton (10 May 2020)

dodgy said:


> Why the snottiness? @Phaeton made a valid point and included a link to pertinent information. I hadn't realise how big the numbers were actually.


It's his/her MO, just ignore like I do, they have a troll symbol on my system.


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## tom73 (10 May 2020)

Phaeton said:


> It's his/her MO, just ignore like I do, they have a troll symbol on my system.


Saves so much time a system like that


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## roley poley (10 May 2020)

pawl said:


> When I visited York last year I was surprised to see how many people were cycling at rush hour.Certainly appeared the local authorities had spent some cash marking cycle lanes.and I didn’t see any conflict between motorists and cyclists


The vale of York was blessed with flat land in god's own county so he could skew the figures and have a laugh


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## matticus (10 May 2020)

Chris Boardman has a diplomatic streak that I greatly envy!

I heard him say yesterday that this was a great time to try out various infra, traffic-restrictions etc, during this "unusual" crisis; see how it goes, if we* don't like it, we can always wind things back once pandemic/lockdown is over.

*which I suspect is code for car-owners!


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## matticus (10 May 2020)

Phaeton said:


> That's an interesting statement, do they, I have always envisaged that more people live over 8+ miles from a city centre, be interesting to know which is fact





newfhouse said:


> I guess it depends on how you define cities. My point was that there are millions of people within easy (e-)bike range of work, even if many are not.


2018 had 55.3mill living in "urban" areas; of course not all those are in "cities", but they will have jobs within ebike range:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/984702/urban-and-rural-population-of-the-uk/

We can argue about the finer points of this, but clearly there *is *a market there, so let's be positive!


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## matticus (10 May 2020)

Brandane said:


> Who you calling a G.O.B.? I've earned that right through life experience; and by the way *I haven't even f'in started yet*. One man's negativity is another man's realism.


Bring it on - there's nothing better than a bit of negativity, dressed up as "realism", justified by "life experience". I can't wait! 

(p.s. dont try to piggy-back on other's disputes - if you want an argument, have the decency to start your own, my dear old thing.)


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## dodgy (10 May 2020)

Blocked.


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## IaninSheffield (10 May 2020)

matticus said:


> 2018 had 55.3mill living in "urban" areas; of course not all those are in "cities", but they will have jobs within ebike range:
> https://www.statista.com/statistics/984702/urban-and-rural-population-of-the-uk/
> 
> We can argue about the finer points of this, but clearly there *is *a market there, so let's be positive!


Viewing those data would seem to need a premium account?
The figures here from gov.uk, albethey somewhat dated (2014), indicate an urban/rural split _in England _of 83/17%.


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## DRM (10 May 2020)

pawl said:


> When I visited York last year I was surprised to see how many people were cycling at rush hour.Certainly appeared the local authorities had spent some cash marking cycle lanes.and I didn’t see any conflict between motorists and cyclists


As Roley Poley said, York & the Vale of York are flat, by comparison most of West Yorkshire is very lumpy, which can quite easily be perceived as being just too hard to commute, do a days work and then commute home again, similarly Hull is quite flat, so quite a few regularly commute by bike there too, i think geography can also be off putting for new cycle commuters, in fact when on holiday last year in the Poitou-Charentes region of France,which is also quite flat, my average speed went up by 1.5 mph despite the head winds the area is famed for.


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## Brandane (10 May 2020)

dodgy said:


> Blocked.


Likewise; first for many years .


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## Phaeton (10 May 2020)

Brandane said:


> Likewise; first for many years .


Be good when the schools open again


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## classic33 (10 May 2020)

DRM said:


> As Roley Poley said, York & the Vale of York are flat, *by comparison most of West Yorkshire is very lumpy, which can quite easily be perceived as being just too hard to commute, do a days work and then commute home again, *similarly Hull is quite flat, so quite a few regularly commute by bike there too, i think geography can also be off putting for new cycle commuters, in fact when on holiday last year in the Poitou-Charentes region of France,which is also quite flat, my average speed went up by 1.5 mph despite the head winds the area is famed for.


Once you get used to it though the flatter, eastern end makes it easier.


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## Drago (11 May 2020)

matticus said:


> Chris Boardman has a diplomatic streak that I greatly envy!
> 
> I heard him say yesterday that this was a great time to try out various infra, traffic-restrictions etc, during this "unusual" crisis; see how it goes, if we* don't like it, we can always wind things back once pandemic/lockdown is over.
> 
> *which I suspect is code for car-owners!


Chris Boardman who won't ride a bike on the road? I don't question his motives on that, but an ambassador for an activity in which he declines to partake makes him a bit of a straw man.


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## matticus (11 May 2020)

Citation? (This is totally news to me!)


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## Dogtrousers (11 May 2020)

matticus said:


> Citation? (This is totally news to me!)


Assuming you're looking for info on CB not riding on roads, and assuming this is what @Drago was referring to (lots of assumption there) then this might be what you're looking for

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeand...a-bike-on-uk-roads-feels-too-dangerous-for-me

_“The roads are statistically safe, but it doesn’t look it and it doesn’t feel it. Now I try to do more of my riding off-road, which is sad,” _

I sympathise with that. I may start commuting into central London after this is over, but I do not enjoy city riding one bit. It may be statistically safe but it certainly doesn't feel it to me. No amount of denominator neglect graphics will change that feeling for me.


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## matticus (11 May 2020)

Assumption correct! EDIT: It definitely talks about him riding on roads, but prefers off-road. There is some VERY significant context in there:

"Boardman’s mother, Carol, was killed last year while riding her bike in Connah’s Quay, Deeside. For months afterwards, he stopped cycling and has only recently got back in the saddle."
"He said he stopped cycling for a while afterwards because he “just didn’t want the conflict”.

“I don’t want to see people behaving on a road in an aggressive way because, more than making me angry, it makes me depressed to see human beings treating each other that way. To see a human being treat someone who is vulnerable as an obstacle and give them no more thought than that. So I just avoid putting myself in that situation.”
"


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## snorri (11 May 2020)

rogerzilla said:


> Will people keep cycling in foul winter weather when the roads are full of careless and aggressive drivers again?


Yebbut there won't be "careless and aggressive" drivers anymore, they will have beeen converted to careful and law abiding cyclists, if we just keep to the plan.


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## dodgy (11 May 2020)

Drago said:


> Chris Boardman who won't ride a bike on the road? I don't question his motives on that, but an ambassador for an activity in which he declines to partake makes him a bit of a straw man.



I pass him on the road (both cycling) about 3 times a week.


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## newfhouse (11 May 2020)

dodgy said:


> I pass him on the road (both cycling) about 3 times a week.


Chapeau.


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## matticus (11 May 2020)

snorri said:


> " rogerzilla said:
> Will people keep cycling in foul winter weather when the roads are full of careless and aggressive drivers again?"
> Yebbut there won't be "careless and aggressive" drivers anymore, they will have beeen converted to careful and law abiding cyclists, if we just keep to the plan.


I'm going to presume that is a sarcasm emoji in this context (happy to be corrected):
The WHOLE POINT of this is to convert some drivers into cyclists. You can either buy into this, or not. Hence the thread name: "positive".

Meanwhile, I don't really see that winter weather makes a lot of difference to the "aggresive driver" count. Sure, there will be _some _more drivers in the winter - but they won't be a statistically significant difference in terms of danger; there are many many more significant factors. IMO the more drivers that cycle in fair weather, the less careless they will be as drivers - that's reasonable, isn't it?


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## Dogtrousers (11 May 2020)

Not read the whole thread so apols if already posted.

Statutory guidance for local authorities DfT 9 May

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...04-network-management-in-response-to-covid-19

_Local authorities in areas with high levels of public transport use should take measures to reallocate road space to people walking and cycling, both to encourage active travel and to enable social distancing during restart _


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## Phaeton (11 May 2020)

Maybe they should just close the inside lane of the Motorways & allow cyclists & pedestrians, let face it cars don't use the 'Slow' lane.


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## matticus (11 May 2020)

dodgy said:


> Why the snottiness? @Phaeton made a valid point and included a link to pertinent information. I hadn't realise how big the numbers were actually.


OK, fair point - that comment was unjustified. on review, I had a "Hancock moment" and misjudged the tone. Apologies to Mr @Phaeton.

( I stand by every other comment on this thread. So far! )


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## snorri (11 May 2020)

matticus said:


> I'm going to presume that is a sarcasm emoji in this context (happy to be corrected):


No, it's not a sarcasm emoji, it is labelled as an OK emoji.
I used it as in...... 'let's keep to the plan ok' ....ie the plan to get more people cycling.


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## Brandane (11 May 2020)

dodgy said:


> I pass him on the road (both cycling) about 3 times a week.


I assume that the word "pass" in this context means meet while going in different directions, rather than overtake?


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## dodgy (11 May 2020)

Brandane said:


> I assume that the word "pass" in this context means meet while going in different directions, rather than overtake?


Think you know the answer 😜 Still perplexed why Drago thinks Chris doesn’t ride on the road 🤷‍♂️


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## Dogtrousers (11 May 2020)

dodgy said:


> Think you know the answer 😜 Still perplexed why Drago thinks Chris doesn’t ride on the road 🤷‍♂️


Be perplexed no more! https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/more-positive-news.260906/page-6#post-5990548

At least I assume that's what he was referring to.


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## dodgy (11 May 2020)

Dogtrousers said:


> Be perplexed no more! https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/more-positive-news.260906/page-6#post-5990548
> 
> At least I assume that's what he was referring to.



Right, he does more riding off road but that doesn't mean he *doesn't *ride on road (I know you know this), talk about jumping to conclusions.
Also, that article is 2 years old. I would imagine Chris was keen to drive home that if even he is nervous of riding on road, what about the masses of would-be cyclists. He's done a fantastic job, the person you most want to be on the other end of a debate about cycling.

And anyway, even it he didn't ride on roads at all anymore, does that invalidate the campaigning he's doing? I'd say it strengthens it imo.


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## Dogtrousers (11 May 2020)

dodgy said:


> Right, he does more riding off road but that doesn't mean he *doesn't *ride on road (I know you know this), talk about jumping to conclusions.


I think at the time CB was trying to get over the message "I understand people's fears and concerns. Even I can find it tiring/intimidating riding in traffic, I'm not some pro superman who finds it easy". But I think it came out as - "I've given up trying to ride on the road".


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## matticus (11 May 2020)

Dogtrousers said:


> I think at the time CB was trying to get over the message "I understand people's fears and concerns. Even I can find it tiring/intimidating riding in traffic, I'm not some pro superman who finds it easy". But I think it came out as - "I've given up trying to ride on the road".


Good work Mr Trousers! If you are bored, you could tell Mr Dodgy about this post https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/more-positive-news.260906/post-5990554 , I'm sure he'd be grateful :P


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## classic33 (11 May 2020)

matticus said:


> I'm going to presume that is a sarcasm emoji in this context (happy to be corrected):
> The WHOLE POINT of this is to convert some drivers into cyclists. You can either buy into this, or not. Hence the thread name: "positive".
> 
> Meanwhile, I don't really see that winter weather makes a lot of difference to the "aggresive driver" count. Sure, there will be _some _more drivers in the winter - but they won't be a statistically significant difference in terms of danger; there are many many more significant factors. IMO the more drivers that cycle in fair weather, the less careless they will be as drivers - that's reasonable, isn't it?


Thing is many drivers don't change their driving when winter does come around. Be it just heavy rain, which can actually make them drive faster, or in low temperatures or snow.


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## Drago (10 Sep 2020)

4 days in to the trial of e acooters in Northampton and one rider has been charged with driving without a licence, failing to stop following an accieent, careless driving and driving without insurance.

Nice to see that right acrose the UK the trial is going so well. Not.


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