# No lights or reflectives on a dark busy road in the rain.



## Arjimlad (15 Mar 2016)

http://www.gazetteseries.co.uk/news...he_A403_near_Aust__inquest_hears/?ref=mr&lp=7

Sad. I know this road, it is in heavy use by HGVs. No way I would ride on it at night without proper reflectives & lights.


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## MontyVeda (15 Mar 2016)

Very sad. 

I guess that same old debate is on the way.


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## numbnuts (15 Mar 2016)

And lights are not expensive RIP


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## Milkfloat (15 Mar 2016)

I know others will be along to lay complete blame at the driver for not driving at a speed that allows him to spot the sheep/tree that jumps out at him, but I am a firm believer of cyclists helping themselves and obeying the law as well.

On a plus note, from a media point of view, the comment was about reflectives and lights and the word high vis are not mentioned.


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## Lonestar (15 Mar 2016)

R.I.P.


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## Mile195 (15 Mar 2016)

I remember when I was a teenager my mother used to bang on and on about wearing this god-awful reflective sam brown belt thing she bought me. I flatly refused because "I don't need it - cars have lights so they'll see me anyway". I had some lights, but the batteries were usually so close to dead they were pointless anyway.
Not until I started driving did I realise why she used to go on about it, and just how invisible you are with no lights, or at least something reflective.

I think some cyclists genuinely don't realise the importance of lights because they haven't been "on the other side of the wheel" so to speak. Sounds like this lad was one of them, and neither party is really to blame for what happened. Real shame though - so easily avoidable.


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## steve50 (15 Mar 2016)

Poor lad and his family, RIP, I can also empathise with the driver of the wagon, he is going to have to live with the death of that lad on his conscience for the rest of his life.


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## RoubaixCube (15 Mar 2016)

Its sad news indeed and the blame cant be placed with the driver at all. I often wonder about the cyclists who i pass on my commute home with no lights or reflective clothing know how much risk they are putting themselves in but a lot of the main roads here in london are fairly well lit but a flashing light has helped me noticed by drivers who would of otherwise pulled out directly in front of me quite a few times already


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## steveindenmark (15 Mar 2016)

Exactly the same thing happened to a family friend a couple of years ago on a piece of road that was straight for over a mile. No lights, no viz vest, no reflectors.

It's very sad. It is even worse when you think of the price of a rear light a viz vest and a couple of reflective stickers.

RIP


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## Mrs M (15 Mar 2016)

Very sad news, poor lad.
Also feel sorry for the driver, he'll never forget this.


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## mjr (15 Mar 2016)

I've driven that road but never ridden it. I wouldn't fancy riding it on a dark wet night even with my good lights unless I was really stuck - I'd be following the cycle route along back roads and tracks despite the extra distance.



Milkfloat said:


> I know others will be along to lay complete blame at the driver for not driving at a speed that allows him to spot the sheep/tree that jumps out at him, but I am a firm believer of cyclists helping themselves and obeying the law as well.


Not complete blame (the law says the bike should have been lit+reflectored), but well, a driver should be able to see unlit objects in the carriageway, shouldn't he?

Also, "he thought his lorry had hit a deer or a horse and carried on to the company’s depot" - potentially leaving a dead horse in the road for following motorists to hit?!?  "Given the weather conditions I didn’t think it was safe to pull over at that time" - why? Surely it's better that his huge well-lit lorry stops to deal with the dead "horse" than some poor old pensioner in a Ford Ka has to? Doesn't that road have fairly good visibility on the Aust-Pilning stretch anyway? No sharp bends or anything until you get nearer to Avonmouth. It feels like there's something more there - possibly it's only that lots of motorists drive too fast along there (maybe on its 50mph limit even in bad weather) but does anyone know whether Farm Foods drivers are rewarded for meeting tight schedules?

(edited to remove duplication and elaborate on why the lorry should have stopped)


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## summerdays (15 Mar 2016)

I remember it on the local news when it happened, it's not a nice road and I think it was pretty close to the motorway roundabout based on a comment from a local person. It's really dark around there, especially after coming off the motorway, and not a road I would ride on in the dark with lights even (you could take a combination of other less direct roads and the fairly rubbish cycle path which runs part but not all of the way). Poor lad and poor driver.


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## theclaud (15 Mar 2016)

FFS. Which bit of being able to stop within the distance you can SEE TO BE CLEAR can motorists not get through their self-centred little heads?


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## sidevalve (15 Mar 2016)

theclaud said:


> FFS. Which bit of being able to stop within the distance you can SEE TO BE CLEAR can motorists not get through their self-centred little heads?


Which bit of 'a cyclist MUST carry lights in times of poor visibility or darkness' can cyclists not get through their self-centered little heads ? We hear complaints of motorists with defective lights - speeding - parking in cycleways [which nobody seem to use anyway] and yet when a cyclist breaks the law it's always somebody else's fault if something goes wrong. Sorry but no - growing up means taking responsibility - if you can't do that then buy a bus ticket.


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## fossyant (15 Mar 2016)

I feel sorry for the van driver. RIP indeed, but it's Darwen's Award time if you don't use lights in wet conditions, especially at night. Super bright lights in the day don't work sometimes.


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## fossyant (15 Mar 2016)

User said:


> And why is that?



Thought that was obvious. Drivers don't look. Riding in the dark with no lights makes your chances of being hit quite high.


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## Glow worm (15 Mar 2016)

sidevalve said:


> Which bit of 'a cyclist MUST carry lights in times of poor visibility or darkness' can cyclists not get through their self-centered little heads ? We hear complaints of motorists with defective lights - speeding - parking in cycleways [which nobody seem to use anyway] and yet when a cyclist breaks the law it's always somebody else's fault if something goes wrong. Sorry but no - growing up means taking responsibility - if you can't do that then buy a bus ticket.



No one is saying cyclists shouldn't have lights, but just that drivers really ought to try a bit harder to stop driving into stuff, in particular people.


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## fossyant (15 Mar 2016)

User said:


> So the problem is the not looking, and our taking increasing levels of responsibility by using lights in daylight conditions is no answer.



Aye, but in the rain, riding in black, no reflectives makes it very difficult to see a cyclist. By law you have to have lights at night. I'm making the point that even using lights in daylight doesn't get you seen, so what chance have you at night without any.


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## numbnuts (15 Mar 2016)

I use bright lights during the day and I do get noticed and being a trike rider that is more important to me


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## ufkacbln (15 Mar 2016)

The real point is that the cyclist is "at fault" for not having lights, but the driver is equally "at fault" for failing to see' and also for failing to stop

Neither side comes out of this smelling of roses


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## ufkacbln (15 Mar 2016)

sidevalve said:


> Which bit of 'a cyclist MUST carry lights in times of poor visibility or darkness' can cyclists not get through their self-centered little heads ? We hear complaints of motorists with defective lights - speeding - parking in cycleways [which nobody seem to use anyway] and yet when a cyclist breaks the law it's always somebody else's fault if something goes wrong. Sorry but no - growing up means taking responsibility - if you can't do that then buy a bus ticket.



Highly recommended for many of the motorists you mention

As you say growing up means taking responsibility for your standard of driving as well as of cycling

Can we just confirm that all these drivers should also be bus tickets, not just the cyclists


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## Drago (15 Mar 2016)

How can't a life be worth a fiver for lights? Even £1.99 on a rear alone might have saved him. How selfish to put his family and friends through all that for the sake of a couple of quid.


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## MontyVeda (15 Mar 2016)

Drago said:


> How can't a life be worth a fiver for lights? Even £1.99 on a rear alone might have saved him. How selfish to put his family and friends through all that for the sake of a couple of quid.


You never know... it was a newish job and maybe he didn't realise his shift would take him home after dark. I've found myself having to ride unlit country lanes without lights in the past (as I'm sure others have), but luckily I'm here to tell the tale. Don't be so quick to judge.


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## steve50 (15 Mar 2016)

Drago said:


> How can't a life be worth a fiver for lights? Even £1.99 on a rear alone might have saved him. How selfish to put his family and friends through all that for the sake of a couple of quid.


We don't know the lads circumstances other than he had just started a new job, he didn't set out that night to cause an incident / accident anymore than the wagon driver did. 
Quote from the article, 
Collision investigator PC Richard Hignett said except for a sticker on the rear of his bike, the 20-year-old cyclist would not easily have been seen.

*“There were no lights on the bike and Mr Shaul presented drivers with very little visual clues to his position on the road,*” said PC Hignett.

*“There was no contrast, making it very difficult for drivers to see him.” *

In a statement read to the court, Farm Foods delivery driver Francis Hold said he thought his lorry had hit a deer or a horse and carried on to the company’s depot a few minutes away in Avonmouth. He said he had no idea it was a person until he returned to the scene later that evening.

“Before reaching the single carriageway section of the road, I recall my attention being drawn to a car oncoming which had its full beam headlights and fog lights on,” he said. “In the next split second I heard a bang. 

None of us either in our cars or bikes set out to cause an accident or become victims of incidents on the roads but it happens and will carry on happening because we cannot educate everyone to the standards required to totally eliminate the possibility of road traffic incidents.


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## Drago (15 Mar 2016)

MontyVeda said:


> You never know... it was a newish job and maybe he didn't realise his shift would take him home after dark. I've found myself having to ride unlit country lanes without lights in the past (as I'm sure others have), but luckily I'm here to tell the tale. Don't be so quick to judge.


Being later, should that have been the case, out of work than expected in no way justifies endangering your life. 

There are no excuses for risking your most precious commodity for the sake of a set of bike lights. None whatsoever.


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## raleighnut (15 Mar 2016)

I'd have expected the driver to at least stop no matter what he'd hit.


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## ufkacbln (15 Mar 2016)

Drago said:


> How can't a life be worth a fiver for lights? Even £1.99 on a rear alone might have saved him. How selfish to put his family and friends through all that for the sake of a couple of quid.



Actually that is part of the problem

All too many "cyclists" will take exactly this position and buy a set of invisible, inadequate lights from a pound shop or E Bay and think they are adequate

Here is a classic example. Green LEDs are a twenty year old technology that was inadequate at the time and has been superseded. Yet the RAC still sells them 







An "educated" cyclist or one with experience would realise they are a waste of money and ineffective, but how many people will buy them because of the cheap price and RAC endorsement?


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## mjr (15 Mar 2016)

Drago said:


> How can't a life be worth a fiver for lights? Even £1.99 on a rear alone might have saved him. How selfish to put his family and friends through all that for the sake of a couple of quid.


Those lights wouldn't be legal either.

Actually, how sure can we be that he didn't have a set of pathetic cheap lights? It's not like they'd stay on the bike and working when hit by a lorry and there's plenty of scrub and long grass for them to land in along that road if it's the one I think it is. But maybe I'm letting my past bad experience of Avon and Somerset Police's attitude towards cyclists influence me.


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## MontyVeda (15 Mar 2016)

[QUOTE 4197129, member: 259"]I don't know what WGAF means. He did not say anything that could be connected with "Some people on here constantly leap in to make excuses for drivers. Some people on here constantly blame cyclists for their misfortunes. Some people on here are sick of both stuck-records."[/QUOTE]
The first post from @Drago commented only on the cyclist's lack of lights. His 2nd post also mentioned noting at all about the driver possibly not paying enough attention whilst driving in adverse weather conditions or not stopping when he knew he'd hit something. Whilst I'm not blaming the driver or the cyclist, it's errors on both sides that led to this tragic accident... so to only speak of one party's errors of judgement and not the other, does suggest a certain bias. A bias worth addressing i think.


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## Tin Pot (16 Mar 2016)

Arjimlad said:


> http://www.gazetteseries.co.uk/news...he_A403_near_Aust__inquest_hears/?ref=mr&lp=7
> 
> Sad. I know this road, it is in heavy use by HGVs. No way I would ride on it at night without proper reflectives & lights.



Opening sentence:

"Shaul was almost invisible to drivers ..."

What a load of shoot. I can see everything on the road when I'm driving, EVEN UNLIT NO HIVIZ "INVISIBLE" PEDESTRIANS.


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## MontyVeda (16 Mar 2016)

[QUOTE 4197227, member: 259"]I'm sure, but I was referring to the quotation I made,, which was pretty bloody obvious. It was:

"So a driver makes an error of judgement and that is understandable, but when a cyclist does so it never is? All the excuses seem to run one way in cases like this, usually among people who love their cars a lot."

Which was absolutely _not _what Drago said. I'm far from being his apologist, but he didn't say that.[/QUOTE]
So you keep saying. It's like we're in a cavern.


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## Banjo (16 Mar 2016)

How Sad that a young lad gets himself a job then it ends in such a tragedy.

I ride the A403 quite often. Its OK to get from A to B but the heavy amount of HGV traffic makes it unpleasant.
On a dark Wet night with no lights I wouldn't ride it or any similar road for a million pounds.


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## steve292 (16 Mar 2016)

Very very sad. It's an awful road. I work at the power station between Pilning and the Hallen turn off, and its one of the very few sections of road that I would support segregation on.
There is a massive programme of upgrading on the A403 currently in progress that includes new cycle paths and upgrades to the existing ones.
http://severnnet.org/workareas/tran...andrews-road-and-a403-highway-reconstruction/
and TBF the ones that have been finished are decent enough.

Having said all that I see loads of so called ninja cyclists. seeing being the operative word, my car has lights. unless this chap magically appeared from nowhere, I would place the blame on the driver. i don't for one minute suppose he meant to do it, but not stopping? When he hit something substantial enough to cause "significant damage". come on, he had to ask his boss to take him back, how badly was his vehicle damaged?


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## summerdays (16 Mar 2016)

I normally see ninja cyclists.... But I don't know why I find that area really dark..... For example at the roundabout your car and lights aren't pointing to where traffic is coming from though luckily it's pretty rare for cyclists to come across there as you can cross further up in the underpass. I would like to see street lights at the roundabout at least. And given the speed of that road and the high number of lorries on that road I agree it would be good to have an alternative cycle path/footpath for people in that area.


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## steve292 (16 Mar 2016)

summerdays said:


> I normally see ninja cyclists.... But I don't know why I find that area really dark..... For example at the roundabout your car and lights aren't pointing to where traffic is coming from though luckily it's pretty rare for cyclists to come across there as you can cross further up in the underpass. I would like to see street lights at the roundabout at least. And given the speed of that road and the high number of lorries on that road I agree it would be good to have an alternative cycle path/footpath for people in that area.


The speed limit is coming down, at least by the station and the new wasteburner, it's going to be 40 I believe.
The lorries are a fact of life there, as it's from the port to the rest area at Aust & there are large numbers of tipper trucks from various companies along that road.


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