# Hills - Should you back off as you get older ?



## kingrollo (16 Aug 2017)

Im 54 in a couple of weeks - Ive always been a pretty crap cyclist, probably due to my lungs. I do (or did) pride myself on always getting over even the steepest of hills ...like 20% .....Im not fast but I always get there...

Anyway I stumbled on an unknown - but absolute monster of hill - it was a very tight narrow and small lane- I was blowing and groaning like nobodies business - then I spotted someones driveway sadly I bottled it and got off .......part of it was fear of car coming the other way - the road was just to damm narrow - and I didn't fancy ending up on my arse...

My question is at 54 is it dangerous to push yourself when your feel your heart coming out of your jersey ?


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## Nigel-YZ1 (16 Aug 2017)

I tend to push myself quite hard, but at times just have a feeling that it's just not right and back off.
I've done a few Holmfirth runs lately and had to bail out of one part of the climb a few times, so my answer is that if it starts to feel wrong, then back off.

For my own safety I'd welcome a medical opinion!


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## kingrollo (16 Aug 2017)

Had it been a wide open road and I could see the top I reckon I could have made it (easy to say now!!!!) - but it was not knowing how long it went on for ....and I had encounted a few cars on narrow roads earlier in the day......


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## numbnuts (16 Aug 2017)

Lower your gearing and sit and spin and pace yourself
Fit an electric motor, I did


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## S-Express (16 Aug 2017)

If you have a heart condition (diagnosed or not) - then it's obviously dangerous. If you don't - it isn't. If you have a healthy heart, then there is no issue in red-lining it at any age and certainly not at 54.


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## Milkfloat (16 Aug 2017)

I think age is unrelated - it is all fitness. If you cannot get up in one go or without walking then stop. I know plenty of very old riders who destroy me on hills.


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## byegad (16 Aug 2017)

I was never a good climber, too fat to ever trouble anyone on hills IMHO. At 54 I did give myself enough work to get me hot, sweaty and out of breath at the top of big hills*, now at 66, and getting back into my normal riding after a 10 month layoff due to a really bad chest infection I'm giving myself far less of a workout on any kind of hill even a gentle slope. Hopefully next year I can get back to my previous hill climbing technique of going hard enough to be out of breath on bigger hills. 

Around here big is anything of 20% and steeper.


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## Sharky (16 Aug 2017)

Can't remember 13 years back, but I still push myself as hard as I can. The body's natural defense mechanisms kick in and stop you going to extreme efforts. 

Hence you go a bit slower and not as far and might need a lower gear.


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## Team carbon (16 Aug 2017)

Maybe use a heart monitor and know your limits I tend to have a push anything over 180 bpm especially climbing leath hill it doesn't take to long to drop back down


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## Ian H (16 Aug 2017)

Ten years older and not dead yet.


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## kingrollo (16 Aug 2017)

I was in easiest the gear and standing up ! - the cadence was of course very low - but as fast as I could muster - I'm just gutted I got off !


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## Yellow Saddle (16 Aug 2017)

Team carbon said:


> Maybe use a heart monitor and know your limits I tend to have a push anything over 180 bpm especially climbing leath hill it doesn't take to long to drop back down



No need for gadgets. Your body knows its limits and won't allow you to go beyond.


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## Rooster1 (16 Aug 2017)

I've been doing the same hills for years and my aim (at 48) is to go faster and faster.
I know I can beat my best time of last year because I know I ate too much on holiday and I need to shed a few lbs.

So no, i'm not for backing off just yet anyhow.


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## ozboz (16 Aug 2017)

I am 64 , hills are only a problem on my road bike , it's 20 speed 11-25 , deffo for a fitter of younger rider , however , not to be be out done , I'm having an 11-34 fitted very shortly , then , bring em on ! 
( hopefully the Gung Ho will not see me off !!)


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## gavroche (16 Aug 2017)

There are at least three hills round here that I wouldn't dream of doing because I know I wouldn't be able to. I know my limits and sticks to it. No worth a heart attack.


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## Jason (16 Aug 2017)

pushing really hard isn't going to induce a heart attack. your lungs will not have enough oxygen to continue, and the body will stop said activity.
try and get fitter, and add a bigger cog , but no shame in stopping, or pausing for a moment as i often do :-)


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## KneesUp (16 Aug 2017)

Jasonbourne said:


> no shame in stopping, or pausing for a moment as i often do :-)


I was looking at the view ...


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## GlasgowFinn (16 Aug 2017)

My biggest concern is running out of legs before running out of hill and being unable to unclip!


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## mjr (16 Aug 2017)

S-Express said:


> If you have a heart condition (diagnosed or not) - then it's obviously dangerous. If you don't - it isn't. If you have a healthy heart, then there is no issue in red-lining it at any age and certainly not at 54.


How do you know whether you've an undiagnosed heart condition?


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## mjr (16 Aug 2017)

GlasgowFinn said:


> My biggest concern is running out of legs before running out of hill and being unable to unclip!


There's an easy solution to that...


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## S-Express (16 Aug 2017)

mjr said:


> How do you know whether you've an undiagnosed heart condition?


You don't. But you still have it, regardless.


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## welsh dragon (16 Aug 2017)

Everyone is different. Don't worry about not being able to get up a certain hill if you have to walk, then so be it.


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## jefmcg (16 Aug 2017)

Jasonbourne said:


> pushing really hard isn't going to induce a heart attack. your lungs will not have enough oxygen to continue, and the body will stop said activity.


And you got your medical degree where?

Ride London:
2014: 36 year old male, cardiac arrest
2015: 55 year old male, cardiac arrest
2016: 48 year old male, cardiac arrest
2017: 67 year old male, cardiac arrest

I'm not saying the risk is huge, and I don't know if any of these people would have survived the year out if they had not done the ride, or indeed if cycling gave them a longer life than they would have had, but you can't just say there is no risk of dying from exertion cycling. 

I agree with most of the other posters. Do what you feel comfortable with. If you want to keep pushing it but feel concerned, then talk to you GP.

_Disclaimer: I know cardiac arrest and heart attack aren't the same thing._


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## S-Express (16 Aug 2017)

jefmcg said:


> And you got your medical degree where?
> 
> Ride London:
> 2014: 36 year old male, cardiac arrest
> ...



A bit unfair to criticise someone for making a medically unqualified statement and then doing precisely the same thing yourself. You have no idea of the medical histories of those individuals without studying coroners' reports or other related information.


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## jefmcg (16 Aug 2017)

S-Express said:


> A bit unfair to criticise someone for making a medically unqualified statement and then doing precisely the same thing yourself. You have no idea of the medical histories of those individuals without studying coroners' reports or other related information.


No, and I have no idea of the OPs medical history or access to his coroners report**.

All I was doing was saying that it is not impossible to have your heart stopped due to exertion. 

**sorry, @kingrollo - hope you realise i am trying to be light hearted.


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## gbb (17 Aug 2017)

GlasgowFinn said:


> My biggest concern is running out of legs before running out of hill and being unable to unclip!


We don't really have hills here but I remember once turning round a bend as I was carrying some speed. ..to be confronted by a short sharp hill...the worst I've seen round here.
I attacked it....uurrrrgh, half way up I'd nearly ground to a halt and thought 'jesus how the heck am I going to unclip'.
I fought on and made it...but only only just.


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## IBarrett (17 Aug 2017)

Hills are a strange thing. Some of our fastest club riders avoid them like the plague and struggle with them. I love them, see them as a challenge and possibly because of that I'm pretty good at climbing,

Look at techniques for climbing if you really want to improve. Shifting your position rests certain muscles and makes a difference. Standing is bloody hard work and inefficient so should be done in bursts.

Get lower gears and use them. If you have a spare wheel you could try a different cassette on that and go for a play.

All this is if you WANT to climb hills quickly. 
If you're happy plodding or even walking up that's OK because you're out there doing what you love and should enjoy doing it. 
Personally, I enjoy torturing myself

I'm 54, 13st 5lb and been riding almost 2 years


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## oldwheels (17 Aug 2017)

I am much older than the op and just spin up hills and get off for 2 foot gear if cannot turn the pedals. I get different advice from various doctors which seems to depend if they know anything about cycling or not. Having said that I have been heart scanned and have slight aortic stenosis but nobody seems unduly concerned. My advice would be to get checked out anyway. If no reason for the problem is found it is just down to lack of fitness for the hills tackled.


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## Oldfentiger (17 Aug 2017)

18 months ago I was puffing like an old steam engine and failing to crest most of the climbs around here. I went and got checked out, had some tests and was diagnosed mild asthmatic.
I tried the inhaler and found it didn't help so binned it and just persevered with the hills.
Fast forward to now. I'm 20 lbs lighter and have conquered all of the toughest climbs in my locality. Asthmatic my @rse. It was just a fitness issue.
On the subject of heart rate, the climbs that were defeating me had me up in the high 180s. Same climbs I now am in the 150s and hardly blowing.
I'll be 65 in October


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## Roadhump (17 Aug 2017)

Oldfentiger said:


> 18 months ago I was puffing like an old steam engine and failing to crest most of the climbs around here. I went and got checked out, had some tests and was diagnosed mild asthmatic.
> I tried the inhaler and found it didn't help so binned it and just persevered with the hills.
> Fast forward to now. *I'm 20 lbs lighter* and have conquered all of the toughest climbs in my locality. Asthmatic my @rse. It was just a fitness issue.
> On the subject of heart rate, the climbs that were defeating me had me up in the high 180s. Same climbs I now am in the 150s and hardly blowing.
> I'll be 65 in October



If you are mastering the hills around Pendle you are doing well. I live in Southport and do most of my cycling around S. W. Lancs and Merseyside which is a very flat area. My wife and I occasionally have a trip out to the Pendle / Bowland area and to say the hills there are challenging compared to here is an understatement.

I was speaking to an old schoolmate a couple of years ago, who now lives up that way and reckons that, as a result of cycling round there for many years, he can breeze up most hills, but isn't too quick sprinting in flat areas - maybe its a case of how your body trains itself in its usual environment?

Round here, you have to get out towards Parbold / Wigan before meeting anything resembling a real hill, and about a year ago, I started going that way deliberately to improve my "hill skill". I have noticed an improvement and I would say consistently challenging yourself without over-exerting yourself will bring improvement.

P.S. How did you lose the 20lbs, was it a deliberate thing, or a side effect of your cycling? I only ask because despite my cycling, I still carry quite a bit of excess weight.


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## reacher (17 Aug 2017)

jefmcg said:


> And you got your medical degree where?
> 
> Ride London:
> 2014: 36 year old male, cardiac arrest
> ...



I agree your asking for trouble, when squash was popular in the 90s I played a lot and their was no end of people having heart attacks and that was a typical sport where people went to the limit on heart rates


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## Oldfentiger (17 Aug 2017)

Roadhump said:


> If you are mastering the hills around Pendle you are doing well. I live in Southport and do most of my cycling around S. W. Lancs and Merseyside which is a very flat area. My wife and I occasionally have a trip out to the Pendle / Bowland area and to say the hills there are challenging compared to here is an understatement.
> 
> I was speaking to an old schoolmate a couple of years ago, who now lives up that way and reckons that, as a result of cycling round there for many years, he can breeze up most hills, but isn't too quick sprinting in flat areas - maybe its a case of how your body trains itself in its usual environment?
> 
> ...


100% agree with your theory that the body responds to the type of cycling you do.

I've had some help with the weight loss. Mrs OFT has been attending Slimming World since February and has lost 2st 10lbs.

Every evening she's in the kitchen with her Slimming World recipes, with me acting as sous chef.
I've been eating the same evening meals as her. The food is tasty so I couldn't see any point in preparing different meals for me.
I have porridge for breakfast and a sandwich for lunch. I indulge in the odd chocolate bar, sometimes cake so it doesn't feel like hardship. In fact I've never eaten so much and still lost weight! Actually just worked out that I've dropped 25lbs in 18 months.
I appear to have reached my "fighting weight" now, as I've hovered around 11st 2lbs for the last 6 weeks or so. I'm 5' 8" tall.


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## reacher (17 Aug 2017)

First off its a completely pointless thing to do, the upshot is your red lining at an age that's dangerous to do so, any half wit would realise that, theirs no benifet to it as regards training as its a one off and it's not going to make you any faster or fitter. With modern gears and bikes and with proper training you don't need to put yourself in that position climbing anyway. Far better to get off recover and go some more, no prizes awarded for dead heroes.


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## jefmcg (17 Aug 2017)

[QUOTE 4920782, member: 9609"]and the moral of the story ? have a sex change before its too late[/QUOTE]


But ridelondon is only 20% female, so it could all even up in 2018.


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## kingrollo (17 Aug 2017)

O/P here.
I am a pretty bad asthmatic - my peak flow measures 300 - 350 - I don't have asthma attacks as such - but my chest really tightens on the hills and I start wheezing. GP pretty disinterested TBH.
The thing about unclipping because you are going so slow is a real problem for me - although that fears gets me over some stonking hills - I just can't get off ! 

This is the hill that beat ME
https://www.strava.com/segments/14249994

but I know I can get up this one
https://www.strava.com/segments/5498746

These are seriously steep sections - the charts there don't do them justice TBH.


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## reacher (17 Aug 2017)

The point is, their is no point to doing this, unless your training for something specific then modern gears allow you to train very efficiently at all ages on all types of hills, training should benifet you not push you to the brink of a heart attack or worse.


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## kingrollo (17 Aug 2017)

reacher said:


> The point is, their is no point to doing this, unless your training for something specific then modern gears allow you to train very efficiently at all ages on all types of hills, training should benifet you not push you to the brink of a heart attack or worse.



I want to be able to get up that hill - I am not fast on hills but manage to get over most things albeit slowly.


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## reacher (17 Aug 2017)

Then carry on pushing yourself to the limit, I don't see why your aking the question if you have already decided that no matter the risk your going to keep on red lining, how steep is it anyway ?


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## kingrollo (17 Aug 2017)

reacher said:


> Then carry on pushing yourself to the limit, I don't see why your aking the question if you have already decided that no matter the risk your going to keep on red lining, how steep is it anyway ?



Just getting peoples thoughts. If its winding u up choose another thread - no disrespect intended.

I don't know the risk - hence Im asking - hence the variety of replies

Its listed at 10% - but for quite long sections its 17-18% - As I say I think part of the problem was the narrow road - if a car came either way - Id be off - I wouldn't have time to unclip.
I run a 25 rear sprocket - but have ordered a 28 - see how that goes. Another question I can't see how to train for such a hill without riding such a hill ! - most of my rides include 2500ft of elevation - but does doing lesser hills prepare (to any great extent) for steeper hills


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## Red17 (17 Aug 2017)

kingrollo said:


> but for quite long sections its 17-18% -
> 
> I run a 25 rear sprocket -



For me (at 56) you have the answer there already


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## Oldfentiger (17 Aug 2017)

My two modern bikes have 30 and 32 tooth rear sprockets, and I think you should consider these also, if only for the steep bits.
I can tackle most stuff around here on the 28 tooth sprocket, but resort to the easier ones where necessary.


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## jefmcg (17 Aug 2017)

kingrollo said:


> I am a pretty bad asthmatic - my peak flow measures 300 - 350 - I don't have asthma attacks as such - but my chest really tightens on the hills and I start wheezing. GP pretty disinterested TBH.


This isn't good enough. Asthma can usually be controlled. If you GP is really disinterested, try calling Asthma UK 0300 222 5800 and see what they can suggest.

(I had undiagnosed asthma as a child, and I thought I was just terribly unfit. It would totally prevent you getting up hills, the way it prevented me from running all the way around the oval)

And you might want to fill out this survey if the link works, so your poor level of treatment can at least be noted.


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## kingrollo (17 Aug 2017)

Red17 said:


> For me (at 56) you have the answer there already



What the hill is no go ? - or a 28 tooth sprocket is the 'answer'


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## kingrollo (17 Aug 2017)

jefmcg said:


> This isn't good enough. Asthma can usually be controlled. If you GP is really disinterested, try calling Asthma UK 0300 222 5800 and see what they can suggest.
> 
> (I had undiagnosed asthma as a child, and I thought I was just terribly unfit. It would totally prevent you getting up hills, the way it prevented me from running all the way around the oval)
> 
> And you might want to fill out this survey if the link works, so your poor level of treatment can at least be noted.



What my GP implies is that its peak flow technique as I wouldn't be doing what I do with an actual PF of 300 !


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## Red17 (17 Aug 2017)

kingrollo said:


> What the hill is no go ? - or a 28 tooth sprocket is the 'answer'



You just need a bigger sprocket Imo


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## Roadhump (17 Aug 2017)

Red17 said:


> You just need a bigger sprocket Imo


Yep, 11-32 for us more mature, well nourished types.


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## jefmcg (17 Aug 2017)

kingrollo said:


> What my GP implies is that its peak flow technique as I wouldn't be doing what I do with an actual PF of 300 !


This is well outside my knowledge (my asthma in remission at the moment, and I've never had to monitor flows) but this sounds like nonsense. (S)he's administering a test, and then just ignoring the results. It sounds to me (not a doctor!) that the rest of your CV system must be in stonking shape, as you have the normal lung capacity of an 85 year old woman according to a chart I found online. But it's also with the normal range of a short women your age, and short mid fifties women can conquer hills so it's not impossible to be able to ride a bike, just a lot less than you are capable of.

Ring the number for Asthma UK. Apparently it's manned by asthma nurses, who will be able to clarify what could be going on and what you should do.


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## kingrollo (17 Aug 2017)

Roadhump said:


> Yep, 11-32 for us more mature, well nourished types.



28 is an easy swap - much (anything) above that and I need a bigger cage etc - see how the 28 goes...


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## reacher (17 Aug 2017)

kingrollo said:


> Just getting peoples thoughts. If its winding u up choose another thread - no disrespect intended.
> 
> I don't know the risk - hence Im asking - hence the variety of replies
> 
> ...



Why would it wind me up, I'm not the one asking if it's going to kill me red lining, the answer is yes it's possible to do that. What you should be asking is why can't I get up it in a reasonable state and the answer to that is for your current level of ability your useing the wrong gearing


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## kingrollo (17 Aug 2017)

reacher said:


> Why would it wind me up, I'm not the one asking if it's going to kill me red lining, the answer is yes it's possible to do that. What you should be asking is why can't I get up it in a reasonable state and the answer to that is for your current level of ability your useing the wrong gearing





reacher said:


> Why would it wind me up, I'm not the one asking if it's going to kill me red lining, the answer is yes it's possible to do that. What you should be asking is why can't I get up it in a reasonable state and the answer to that is for your current level of ability your useing the wrong gearing



you sound irritated - weakness of the written word I suppose. no problem.
Yes - Ive been pondering changing the sprocket for some time - its on order now


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## reacher (17 Aug 2017)

Would be irritated if it was me couldn't get up it, but seeing as its not me, then no I'm not


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## reacher (17 Aug 2017)

Btw, you can't train by failing at something, that's not training it's a test


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## jefmcg (17 Aug 2017)

reacher said:


> Btw, you can't train by failing at something, that's not training it's a test


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Training_to_failure


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## S-Express (17 Aug 2017)

reacher said:


> First off its a completely pointless thing to do, the upshot is your red lining at an age that's dangerous to do so,



This is simply just alarmist nonsense. Hitting mhr at age 54 (or any other age) is perfectly safe if your heart is healthy, as any cardiologist will tell you. No idea why you think otherwise.

Hundreds/thousands of 'older' racing cyclists do this every day, ffs.


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## S-Express (17 Aug 2017)

reacher said:


> Btw, you can't train by failing at something, that's not training it's a test



As above, training to failure is a well established method of establishing aerobic limit or threshold. It's still training.


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## toontra (17 Aug 2017)

I'm 62 & started cycling as a sport 11 years ago. I can ride up hills faster now than I could at 51 (or any time previously). Being unable to climb a particular hill without stopping, or being overtaken, were my motivators to get fitter. I train on a local loop of all the steepest climbs combined. I am now rarely overtaken on hills by anyone of any age (descending is another matter) and on audaxes, sportives, etc I can judge my hill-climbing ability directly against others.

I monitor my heart rate on most rides but not out of concern - just for curiosity. The fitter I am the lower my heart rate stays for the same effort and the faster it reduces. I had my heart checked out with a scan several years ago just to make sure there wasn't a latent problem - seemed like a sensible precaution.

Age is certainly not a limiting factor for me - in fact the reverse. I just see it as another challenge.


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## reacher (17 Aug 2017)

S-Express said:


> This is simply just alarmist nonsense. Hitting mhr at age 54 (or any other age) is perfectly safe if your heart is healthy, as any cardiologist will tell you. No idea why you think otherwise.
> 
> Hundreds/thousands of 'older' racing cyclists do this every day, ffs.


Really, so those squash players I used to see dropping dead on the court were dying of tiredness ? Feel free to test your theory on yourself then. On the training point what I'm saying is you could more effectively train to climb that hill in other ways with a better result than just trying to ride up it and failing


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## screenman (17 Aug 2017)

I am 62 in March and can blast up all the hills within 10 miles of my house.


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## Crackle (17 Aug 2017)

screenman said:


> I am 62 in March and can blast up all the hills within 10 miles of my house.


Whatever you do, don't play squash though.


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## S-Express (17 Aug 2017)

reacher said:


> Really, so those squash players I used to see dropping dead on the court were dying of tiredness ? Feel free to test your theory on yourself then.



Can't believe you're equating deaths on squash courts and somehow drawing what you think is a valid parallel. Those people didn't die because they were in their 50s, they died because their hearts were diseased or otherwise congenitally defective. Go along to any veterans' squash tournament and witness many players in their 50s, 60s and beyond playing squash and - crucially - not dieing. 

As for myself, I raced well into my 50s and I know many others older than me still training at a high intensity and still racing. And it's not my 'theory', incidentally - it happens to be scientific fact. The nice thing about facts is that they remain true, regardless of how much you might like to disagree with them.


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## screenman (17 Aug 2017)

Crackle said:


> Whatever you do, don't play squash though.



Arthritis in right knee stops that one, I do swim 6 miles a week and spend 3 hours in the gym. I know of plenty of 70+ year old guys putting 200 to 300 miles a week in.


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## reacher (17 Aug 2017)

I think theirs a differance between trying to ride up a hill and to quote the op, my heart was coming out of my chest, and riding at a max heart rate that's some way below your absolute limit of red lining and having to get off the bike simply because you can't go any further because your heart is at its limit, the parallel between squash and exercise is that it's a game where you very easily can go beyond normal high level heart rates to extreme ones is all. No ones implying that training at high heart rates is dangerous that's your take on it not mine what's dangerous is red lining the heart


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## S-Express (17 Aug 2017)

I don't think you get this at all. By redline I mean hitting mhr. By definition, it is not possible to exceed mhr.


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## jefmcg (17 Aug 2017)

How many of those boasting of how hard they push themselves have a poorly controlled chronic disease of the respiratory system?


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## S-Express (17 Aug 2017)

jefmcg said:


> How many of those boasting of how hard they push themselves have a poorly controlled chronic disease of the respiratory system?


Is that a trick question?


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## screenman (17 Aug 2017)

jefmcg said:


> How many of those boasting of how hard they push themselves have a poorly controlled chronic disease of the respiratory system?



17


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## jefmcg (17 Aug 2017)

Am I really the only one who believes the first thing the op should do is get his asthma under control?


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## toontra (17 Aug 2017)

jefmcg said:


> How many of those boasting of how hard they push themselves have a poorly controlled chronic disease of the respiratory system?



Haven't seen any "boasting" here - just people saying how they approach fitness as relates to hill-climbing.

I suppose I am "lucky" in that I don't have any chronic or overly-debilitating diseases (that I'm aware of), but I tell you something - the more I train the luckier I get.


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## reacher (17 Aug 2017)

S-Express said:


> I don't think you get this at all. By redline I mean hitting mhr. By definition, it is not possible to exceed mhr.


What he said was he had to stop and get off because his heart was coming through his chest, that implys to me that he has gone to the absolute limit of what he is capable of not max heart rate, its only my opinion that doing that is pointless, training at max heart rates is not, you really need to read what i'm saying before trying to pick it apart, for sure you can train at very high levels no ones saying you cant, trying to induce a heart attack is not training in my opinion


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## mjr (17 Aug 2017)

jefmcg said:


> Am I really the only one who believes the first thing the op should do is get his asthma under control?


No.


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## mjr (17 Aug 2017)

screenman said:


> I am 62 in March and can blast up all the hills within 10 miles of my house.


There are no hills within 10 miles of March, but I thought you were in Lincolnshire, parts of which are almost as bad


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## S-Express (17 Aug 2017)

reading your stuff is hard work, unfortunately, reacher. Either way, a maximal effort to failure usually equates to a maximum heart rate. It would help if you understood the terminology you use.


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## screenman (17 Aug 2017)

mjr said:


> There are no hills within 10 miles of March, but I thought you were in Lincolnshire, parts of which are almost as bad



Damn, found out.


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## kingrollo (17 Aug 2017)

jefmcg said:


> Am I really the only one who believes the first thing the op should do is get his asthma under control?



Personally I think that is the issue. Ive persuaded a few of mates to take up cycling - and they get better than me on much less time and miles - especially on the hills - and they are just cycling not following any training programs etc.

I don't have a great relationship with my GP - I fought and won a 3 year battle with my GP - when they told me my hip \ backside pain was down to arthritis and nothing could be done. I didn't make myself popular with self diagnosis and winning many battles to get scans - referrals etc. In the end I was right - got it sorted - and got back on my bike. All time I was off the bike I missed it greatly and thought if only I could tootle round at 12 mph for a couple of hours - but now I can - I want more ! - 
Pretty sure the GP'S at surgery haven't forgot those battles - anyway I have an appointment with one of the better gps in around 3 weeks (thanks Theresa M) - so will get the ticker checked out - and push for more astma treatment..


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## S-Express (17 Aug 2017)

You've had spirometry?


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## toontra (17 Aug 2017)

Good luck with it, kingrollo.


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## screenman (17 Aug 2017)

S-Express said:


> You've had spirometry?



I had one, put me 9 years younger.


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## reacher (17 Aug 2017)

S-Express said:


> reading your stuff is hard work, unfortunately, reacher. Either way, a maximal effort to failure usually equates to a maximum heart rate. It would help if you understood the terminology you use.



ok, i take your point its probably not well written, so what actually are you saying, that going up a hill until you can no longer function on the bike and you have to get off and you collapse in a heap on the floor and your heart is going like a big base drum is good or bad ? 
because as i understand it thats what he is asking, and to me thats not sensible nor is it training, 
i'm not looking to prove a point here just giving my opinion on what can and cannot in terms of extreme exercise can potentially be dangerous depending on age and problems that you cant possibly know you may have with the heart or other vessells in the head which can lead to strokes etc, as you get older you are taking risks that have no benefit to training or health or other wise, in other words its a pointless thing to do just train differantly to over come that hill on another day or change the gearing


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## kingrollo (17 Aug 2017)

S-Express said:


> You've had spirometry?



A while back yes. From memory that gave readings more in line with my age/weight/height - but like a say it was around 10 years ago. What is spirometrey measuring ?


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## Oldfentiger (17 Aug 2017)

mjr said:


> There are no hills within 10 miles of March, but I thought you were in Lincolnshire, parts of which are almost as bad


I went to school in March


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## mjr (17 Aug 2017)

Oldfentiger said:


> I went to school in March


And the rest of the year, you worked in the fields digging drains, life was harder back then, had to get up two hours before you went to bed, 27 children living in a matchbox, etc etc...


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## kingrollo (17 Aug 2017)

reacher said:


> ok, i take your point its probably not well written, so what actually are you saying, that going up a hill until you can no longer function on the bike and you have to get off and you collapse in a heap on the floor and your heart is going like a big base drum is good or bad ?
> because as i understand it thats what he is asking, and to me thats not sensible nor is it training,
> i'm not looking to prove a point here just giving my opinion on what can and cannot in terms of extreme exercise can potentially be dangerous depending on age and problems that you cant possibly know you may have with the heart or other vessells in the head which can lead to strokes etc, as you get older you are taking risks that have no benefit to training or health or other wise, in other words its a pointless thing to do just train differantly to over come that hill on another day or change the gearing



Thanks reacher.
What would you suggest as training for that hill though. I live in quite a hilly area - so go up a fair few hills -Im never great at it - but though most hills are a struggle there is never any danger of me not getting over them. Would climbing more but less steep hills prepare for that one ? - I don't know the answer - but I suspect not. Its as almost as though the shock to the system is part of the problem.
Anyway I got over the 2nd of those 2 hills in the link tonight - it wasn't pleasant or easy. That would suggest a combination of the unknown, the narrow road, and fear of motor coming the other way played a part.....? sound feasible..?


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## Oldfentiger (17 Aug 2017)

mjr said:


> And the rest of the year, you worked in the fields digging drains, life was harder back then, had to get up two hours before you went to bed, 27 children living in a matchbox, etc etc...


Oh no. It was much harder than that. We couldn't afford a matchbox.


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## S-Express (18 Aug 2017)

kingrollo said:


> A while back yes. From memory that gave readings more in line with my age/weight/height - but like a say it was around 10 years ago. What is spirometrey measuring ?


Spirometry measures lung capacity and function and is usually performed when conditions like asthma or others are suspected. However, if you didn't have asthma then, you probably don't have it now. I would suggest that what you are actually experiencing when going up that climb is simply a lack of cardiovascular fitness and nothing more.


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## S-Express (18 Aug 2017)

reacher said:


> ok, i take your point its probably not well written, so what actually are you saying, that going up a hill until you can no longer function on the bike and you have to get off and you collapse in a heap on the floor and your heart is going like a big base drum is good or bad?



As I said before, it's only bad if you have a heart or pulmonary condition for which high levels of cv stress would be dangerous. If you don't, then you are simply riding a bike harder than your body can cope with, but what you aren't doing is risking your life by doing it.

The only other thing I would add is that your thoughts on 'training' in your post #87 seem very confused, to the point where I can only assume you have very limited knowledge/understanding of the topic. No offence.


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## S-Express (18 Aug 2017)

Finally, to the OP - it simply sounds as though you don't have the most appropriate gearing in relation to your current level of fitness. So change gearing, improve fitness, or both.


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## reacher (18 Aug 2017)

S-Express said:


> As I said before, it's only bad if you have a heart or pulmonary condition for which high levels of cv stress would be dangerous. If you don't, then you are simply riding a bike harder than your body can cope with, but what you aren't doing is risking your life by doing it.
> 
> The only other thing I would add is that your thoughts on 'training' in your post #87 seem very confused, to the point where I can only assume you have very limited knowledge/understanding of the topic. No offence.



No offence taken, however the way I ride seems to say the opposite so far, I dont think I will taking your advice on it anytime soon, No offence


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## S-Express (18 Aug 2017)

reacher said:


> No offence taken, however the way I ride seems to say the opposite so far, I dont think I will taking your advice on it anytime soon, No offence



You obviously have concerns about your own health - you should get them checked out.


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## Alan O (18 Aug 2017)

Yellow Saddle said:


> No need for gadgets. Your body knows its limits and won't allow you to go beyond.


I have to say I disagree with the second part of that - people frequently do push themselves beyond what is safe and do actually die as a result of it (and the way the body expresses its knowledge of its limits and its refusal to go beyond them is, often, by stopping permanently).

But though I love my gadgets as much as the next bloke (and I can't resist looking down workmen's holes... fnarr), I do agree with the first part. I wear a Fitbit Surge whenever I'm out on my bike, but it's largely to keep a record for later perusal - keeping a record and looking back on my progress gives me a big psychological boost.

But when I'm out, all I look at is the screen that shows my time, distance and average speed - I almost never check my heart rate. The thing is, what would it mean? If I'd seen the maximum 171bpm that occurred on yesterday's ride (when the 220-age guideline would suggest 162bpm as my max), would I have paused to let it settle or just continue? I felt fine at the time.

With hindsight, I'm pleased that my max HR is actually significantly better than 220-age (I've had 180+ on numerous occasions), but it's the kind of thing that could get people panicking.

I had a heart attack 10 years ago (the anniversary of which I celebrated by doing the Liverpool-Chester-Liverpool 100-mile ride in July), which led to a quadruple bypass, and it happened when I was lying in bed watching the telly. What would an HR monitor have told me at the time? I'm sure it would have shown a low HR and given no indication of any problem whatsoever.

Gadgets are fun, but when deciding whether to power up hills (and I use the word "power" reservedly in my case), I go on how I feel.

Alan


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## reacher (18 Aug 2017)

S-Express said:


> You obviously have concerns about your own health - you should get them checked out.



No ones invincible unfortunately, not even people who train very hard, perhaps you would care to share your thoughts on how the op should be training then, rather than trying to just be top dog on every subject


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## reacher (18 Aug 2017)

S-Express said:


> Finally, to the OP - it simply sounds as though you don't have the most appropriate gearing in relation to your current level of fitness. So change gearing, improve fitness, or both.



My apologies, I didn't see this insightful post on how to train from you, all those pages and pages from so called experts on training and you have it nailed down in one sentence


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## Alan O (18 Aug 2017)

reacher said:


> No offence taken, however the way I ride seems to say the opposite so far, I dont think I will taking your advice on it anytime soon, No offence


You should obviously never take the advice of any random person on the internet*, as the vast majority have no medical training (and those who do would almost never offer advice on any specific condition without being able to examine the patient).

Alan
*at least not regarding health - things like what size axle nuts to get are obviously less risky


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## kingrollo (18 Aug 2017)

S-Express said:


> Spirometry measures lung capacity and function and is usually performed when conditions like asthma or others are suspected. However, if you didn't have asthma then, you probably don't have it now. I would suggest that what you are actually experiencing when going up that climb is simply a lack of cardiovascular fitness and nothing more.



I had bad asthma as a kid - whole days gasping for breath - weeks of school in the winter - back then the advice if you have asthma don't excercise. I was always last at running, etc. 
Now I haven't had an out and out ashtma attack for years - but it does seem to kick in when climbing hills and generally pushing it on my bike.


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## Crackle (18 Aug 2017)

kingrollo said:


> I had bad asthma as a kid - whole days gasping for breath - weeks of school in the winter - back then the advice if you have asthma don't excercise. I was always last at running, etc.
> Now I haven't had an out and out ashtma attack for years - but it does seem to kick in when climbing hills and generally pushing it on my bike.


I developed asthma as an adult. Sometimes I go out and forget my inhaler or sometimes I need to double it up because I'm struggling a bit in cold weather or with an infection. The difference between it being controlled and uncontrolled is night and day. I really don't feel I can get a full lungful of air with it flaring. When it's controlled my breathing is largely normal, I don't notice it except as a consequence of effort. What i mean is, there is a distinct difference between breathing hard from effort and not being able to get my breath.


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## reacher (18 Aug 2017)

Alan O said:


> You should obviously never take the advice of any random person on the internet*, as the vast majority have no medical training (and those who do would almost never offer advice on any specific condition without being able to examine the patient).
> 
> Alan
> *at least not regarding health - things like what size axle nuts to get are obviously less risky



Not sure what your suggesting here but my advice was to not do what everyone else seems to be suggesting he does, it has nothing to do with medical qualifications or training on my part,nor was it suggested or implied that it was, its just common sense.


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## reacher (18 Aug 2017)

S-Express said:


> Spirometry measures lung capacity and function and is usually performed when conditions like asthma or others are suspected. However, if you didn't have asthma then, you probably don't have it now. I would suggest that what you are actually experiencing when going up that climb is simply a lack of cardiovascular fitness and nothing more.



unlike this post, which if the op has any common sense at all will completely ignore


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## Alan O (18 Aug 2017)

reacher said:


> Not sure what your suggesting here but my advice was to not do what everyone else seems to be suggesting he does, it has nothing to do with medical qualifications or training on my part,nor was it suggested or implied that it was, its just common sense.


No specific implications, just general advice.


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## Tin Pot (18 Aug 2017)

kingrollo said:


> Just getting peoples thoughts. If its winding u up choose another thread - no disrespect intended.
> 
> I don't know the risk - hence Im asking - hence the variety of replies
> 
> ...



Just grind slowly up the hill in the 25, stay seated, huff a bit.

Stop if you feel unwell, obviously.

End thread?


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## Tin Pot (18 Aug 2017)

Oh and what hill is it, so we can all say "that's nothing, I can do that backwards, double speed on a fixie."


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## arch684 (18 Aug 2017)

I'm 66 had a heart attack at 53 still taking medication,but i' live in a very hilly area no escaping them.I think my heart is in much better condition now.I just take it slowly up the hills but i think that is more to do with age and not fittness


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## S-Express (18 Aug 2017)

reacher said:


> unlike this post, which if the op has any common sense at all will completely ignore


Please explain which parts of my post were wrong, in your opinion, and why.


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## S-Express (18 Aug 2017)

Alan O said:


> But when I'm out, all I look at is the screen that shows my time, distance and average speed - I almost never check my heart rate. The thing is, what would it mean? If I'd seen the maximum 171bpm that occurred on yesterday's ride (when the 220-age guideline would suggest 162bpm as my max), would I have paused to let it settle or just continue? I felt fine at the time.
> 
> With hindsight, I'm pleased that my max HR is actually significantly better than 220-age (I've had 180+ on numerous occasions), but it's the kind of thing that could get people panicking.



220-age has no basis in cardiology, the only way to establish your mhr is to test individually. To that end, most people's mhr is significantly higher than their 220 figure (mine is 15bpm higher), so 'backing off' when you hit your theoretical mhr is in most cases completely unnecessary. There are no excuses for panic through a lack of understanding of something so important.


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## S-Express (18 Aug 2017)

kingrollo said:


> I had bad asthma as a kid - whole days gasping for breath - weeks of school in the winter - back then the advice if you have asthma don't excercise. I was always last at running, etc.
> Now I haven't had an out and out ashtma attack for years - but it does seem to kick in when climbing hills and generally pushing it on my bike.


Exercise-induced asthma may not show up on regular spiro tests, for obvious reasons. But it would most likely kick in whenever you increased effort, particularly in cold or cooler weather. Get it investigated if it concerns you...


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## reacher (18 Aug 2017)

S-Express said:


> Please explain which parts of my post were wrong, in your opinion, and why.


 Because its a pure guess, you said it yourself in the advice you gave, quote I would suggest what you are experiencing is a lack of cardiovascular fitness and nothing more, 
What if your wrong ? I'm not suggesting you are wrong but the point is you have no way of knowing. Your trying to tell people that riding until they can no longer sustain the effort is not dangerous and to continue doing so will actually improve performance when clearly these people are not in a condition to do so. Anyhow I'm not here to get into a copy and paste pick out parts of posts debate about how it's worded etc just so that you can prove a point. Makes no differance to me I'm not the one who will be following your advice to keep going up climbs until I pass out.


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## S-Express (18 Aug 2017)

reacher said:


> Because its a pure guess, you said it yourself in the advice you gave, quote I would suggest what you are experiencing is a lack of cardiovascular fitness and nothing more,
> What if your wrong ? I'm not suggesting you are wrong but the point is you have no way of knowing. Your trying to tell people that riding until they can no longer sustain the effort is not dangerous and to continue doing so will actually improve performance when clearly these people are not in a condition to do so. Anyhow I'm not here to get into a copy and paste pick out parts of posts debate about how it's worded etc just so that you can prove a point. Makes no differance to me I'm not the one who will be following your advice to keep going up climbs until I pass out.


You're tieing yourself up in knots here. Of course it's a guess, just like your own comments. But what isn't a guess is my comments about mhr and the fact that in a healthy heart, hitting mhr is categorically not dangerous like you seem to think it is. An effort to failure is not dangerous in that context. If you disagree with that, then respond with something worth debating, and not just more of your own misconceptions.


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## toontra (18 Aug 2017)

I have taken 3 VO2 max tests in NHS hospitals over recent years. These are, by definition, efforts until failure. I was in my 60's. I think it's highly unlikely that the medics present would have encouraged me to participate in something life-threatening (although I guess I was in the right place if they mis-calculated ).


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## jefmcg (18 Aug 2017)

toontra said:


> I have taken 3 VO2 max tests in NHS hospitals over recent years. These are, by definition, efforts until failure. I was in my 60's. I think it's highly unlikely that the medics present would have encouraged me to participate in something life-threatening (although I guess I was in the right place if they mis-calculated ).


Almost all medical procedures have risks. Just because a doctor did a test doesn't mean it's safe. It's a matter of balancing the risks and benefits. Obviously there were some benefits to knowing your VO2 which out weigh the risks. Also doing something 3 times with medical supervision does not mean you should necessarily do it weekly on your own. Take - for example - colonoscopy


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## Tin Pot (18 Aug 2017)

toontra said:


> I have taken 3 VO2 max tests in NHS hospitals over recent years. These are, by definition, efforts until failure. I was in my 60's. I think it's highly unlikely that the medics present would have encouraged me to participate in something life-threatening (although I guess I was in the right place if they mis-calculated ).



You mean RAMP tests? VO2 max is not an until-failure test, it's your maximum rate of oxygen use/consumption beyond which your output doesn't increase.


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## Tin Pot (18 Aug 2017)

User13710 said:


> A surprising number (sorry, I can't be bothered to look it up) of sudden deaths occur while people are sitting on the toilet, straining. It seems that somehow their bodies just don't let them know that they are about to experience a life-terminating incident. So the moral is probably that, as we all get older, we should back off from sitting on the toilet as much as we possibly can.



And conversely increase consumption of alcohol, class As and sexual promiscuity.

I can't wait for my seventies!


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## toontra (18 Aug 2017)

Tin Pot said:


> You mean RAMP tests? VO2 max is not an until-failure test, it's your maximum rate of oxygen use/consumption beyond which your output doesn't increase.



They were ramp tests - to failure - to determine, amongst other things, my VO2 max. Better for you? Jees.

I posted here to try and give some encouragement to the OP from my own personal experience but (as is so often the case) there are some who are more interested in winning their own little internet argument than the matter in hand. I'll leave you to your games.


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## Ming the Merciless (18 Aug 2017)

[QUOTE 4920782, member: 9609"]and the moral of the story ? have a sex change before its too late[/QUOTE]

Maybe they already had?


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## JtB (18 Aug 2017)

kingrollo said:


> My question is at 54 is it dangerous to push yourself when your feel your heart coming out of your jersey ?


3 years ago at the age of 53 I ended up with a pacemaker and during a followup consultation I asked the cardiologist whether I should get a heart rate monitor to restrict myself on the hills. His advice was not to bother and to just listen to what my body was telling me. I told him that my philosophy had always been "no pain no gain" to which he responded "exactly" and no more was said. I should mention that he is also a keen cyclist.


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## reacher (18 Aug 2017)

S-Express said:


> You're tieing yourself up in knots here. Of course it's a guess, just like your own comments. But what isn't a guess is my comments about mhr and the fact that in a healthy heart, hitting mhr is categorically not dangerous like you seem to think it is. An effort to failure is not dangerous in that context. If you disagree with that, then respond with something worth debating, and not just more of your own misconceptions.


No thanks i'l give it a miss, you can have it


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## Alan O (18 Aug 2017)

S-Express said:


> 220-age has no basis in cardiology, the only way to establish your mhr is to test individually. To that end, most people's mhr is significantly higher than their 220 figure (mine is 15bpm higher), so 'backing off' when you hit your theoretical mhr is in most cases completely unnecessary. There are no excuses for panic through a lack of understanding of something so important.


Yes indeed, I agree totally - my intended point (as you appear to agree) is that using technology to compare your health indications with pseudo-norms is pretty much meaningless.

But at the same time, I do think it is valuable to consider the physical effort we put into exercise in terms of our age. The older we are, the more we are afflicted by arteriosclerosis (as an example), and the greater the chance of a heart attack when pushing at higher heart rates. The other side of that, of course, is that regular cardiovascular exercise can significantly improve our expected longevity (and the quality of the time we have). How can we win? Surely it requires a sensible balance.

My approach (having an impressive scar up the front of my chest, and now aged 58) is to push my exercise (including, but not exclusively, cycling) to what feels like a comfortably testing level - but I won't go into discomfort levels. If something starts hurting, I stop.


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## Tin Pot (18 Aug 2017)

toontra said:


> They were ramp tests - to failure - to determine, amongst other things, my VO2 max. Better for you? Jees.
> 
> I posted here to try and give some encouragement to the OP from my own personal experience but (as is so often the case) there are some who are more interested in winning their own little internet argument than the matter in hand. I'll leave you to your games.


Me?

Ha ha!


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## slowmotion (18 Aug 2017)

I was on a night ride to Brighton, five years ago. I felt pretty dreadful just getting to the start, and nearly bottled out at Clapham Common. Somewhere in Mitcham (I think), there was a small railway bridge ahead and I thought "There's no way I can get over that!", and turned for home. Three weeks later I was under the knife having a double coronary bypass, a completely undiagnosed condition until four days before the operation. I guess my body had spoken on the way to Brighton. Anyway, I managed Ditchling Beacon for the first time in my life six months later, and I've wheezed up it a few times since. Just ride your bike and enjoy it.


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## slowmotion (18 Aug 2017)

User13710 said:


> A surprising number (sorry, I can't be bothered to look it up) of sudden deaths occur while people are sitting on the toilet, straining. It seems that somehow their bodies just don't let them know that they are about to experience a life-terminating incident. So the moral is probably that, as we all get older, we should back off from sitting on the toilet as much as we possibly can.


Sadly, Evelyn Waugh shuffled off that way, according to Auberon.


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## midlife (18 Aug 2017)

slowmotion said:


> Sadly, Evelyn Waugh shuffled off that way, according to Auberon.



Tldr as they say but that's a problem with the val salva maneuver.


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## slowmotion (19 Aug 2017)

midlife said:


> Tldr as they say but that's a problem with the val salva maneuver.


I had to look that up on Wiki. Anyway, it seems to work if you are sitting on the khazi.........

_"and patients may note floaters in their visual field"...._


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## midlife (19 Aug 2017)

slowmotion said:


> I had to look that up on Wiki. Anyway, it seems to work if you are sitting on the khazi.........
> 
> _"and patients may note floaters in their visual field"...._



It's a long story but it was my job to check the toilets after medical / dental student exams to make sure everybody made it home safe.,..


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## S-Express (19 Aug 2017)

reacher said:


> No thanks i'l give it a miss, you can have it
> View attachment 368696


It's a pity you see this as some kind of pi55ing contest, rather than a discussion about heart rates and safety. If you've got nothing, don't be embarrassed to say so.


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## S-Express (19 Aug 2017)

Alan O said:


> Yes indeed, I agree totally - my intended point (as you appear to agree) is that using technology to compare your health indications with pseudo-norms is pretty much meaningless.


This is precisely what I said earlier, in response to one of your posts in which you were doing exactly that.


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## Alan O (19 Aug 2017)

S-Express said:


> This is precisely what I said earlier, in response to one of your posts in which you were doing exactly that.


What I intended to point out is that I do indeed track health/fitness/exercise measurements using technology, but that I don't put any store on how they compare with pseudo-norms and that I don't judge my level of exertion on them but instead on how I feel. As I pointed out, I don't even look at such measures until after I'm back home.


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## CXRAndy (19 Aug 2017)

I'm a little younger but the wrong side of 50. I regularly red-line on hills and sprints(zwift races) if you're fit and healthy no reason not to work hard. If your heart pops, at least you died doing something hopefully you enjoy.

Aside note our club captain, who is in his mid 60's and still beats the pants off most of our other club riders, on the club runs of 60-70 miles.


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## CXRAndy (19 Aug 2017)

I made a mountain/tourer road bike. I did my research on gearing, speed, cadence and my weight. I ended up with a bike that has a 40/28 crankset, and use either 11-32t cassette for UK riding and a 11-40t for Europe's mountain climbs. Now this allows me spin at a high cadence on the very steepest of climbs(80+rpm), it protects my knees.

So I can ride up the steepest of climbs in relative comfort, but there is also another plus side, I use it for club runs. There was much interest(jocularity) from the other club members thinking I couldn't keep up with the pack. This gearing allows me to attain 30 mph @ 110 rpm on the flats which is the fastest pace I need for club runs and also climb 20% hills without getting off. I'm pretty fit and can haul my 95kg around reasonably well.

The fashion of 50/34 cranks and 11-28 cassettes is not for the heavier riders who like to climb

Try http://www.bikecalc.com work out what gearing you need for your type of riding


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## jefmcg (19 Aug 2017)

slowmotion said:


> Sadly, Evelyn Waugh shuffled off that way, according to Auberon.


And Elvis, though I don't believe Auberon commented on it.


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## jonsablue (21 Aug 2017)

kingrollo said:


> Im 54 in a couple of weeks - Ive always been a pretty crap cyclist, probably due to my lungs. I do (or did) pride myself on always getting over even the steepest of hills ...like 20% .....Im not fast but I always get there...
> 
> Anyway I stumbled on an unknown - but absolute monster of hill - it was a very tight narrow and small lane- I was blowing and groaning like nobodies business - then I spotted someones driveway sadly I bottled it and got off .......part of it was fear of car coming the other way - the road was just to damm narrow - and I didn't fancy ending up on my arse...
> 
> My question is at 54 is it dangerous to push yourself when your feel your heart coming out of your jersey ?



I had a heart attack two years ago at 45 years young! No history in the family but I had really abused myself during my early years. I actually just woke up in the morning one day and did it. I had one stent fitted and my recovery has been good. Fortunately no muscle damage and no residual angina. Cardiac arrests whilst exercising are quite rare (but not unheard of obviously). I'd say at your age your ok if you've not got any symptoms. Even the top guys struggle up the hills, they just make it look prettier than us haha

I had really subtle symptoms prior to the actual event, jaw ache and neuralgia as well as a dull ache in the center of my chest during exercise. If you're not getting any of that then I'd say your good to go. Unless you have a history of premature CVD in the family (heart attack/stroke etc) in which case might be an idea to get yourself checked over anyway.

Not exercise is counter productive to a healthy heart. What I would say is this though, if you're not enjoying it don't do it! Unless your training for an event why put yourself through it? 

I've been back cycling now 18 months. I'm far fitter than I was was prior the event, I can cycle further and harder than before and I love a hill! Trust me I huff and puff up them whilst the fitter lads fly past but I don't care! I get up any hill through sheer determination knowing that I'm doing myself the world of good whilst doing it and its a great challenge. If I didn't enjoy it, I wouldn't do it! I've nothing to prove!


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## kingrollo (22 Aug 2017)

jonsablue said:


> I had a heart attack two years ago at 45 years young! No history in the family but I had really abused myself during my early years. I actually just woke up in the morning one day and did it. I had one stent fitted and my recovery has been good. Fortunately no muscle damage and no residual angina. Cardiac arrests whilst exercising are quite rare (but not unheard of obviously). I'd say at your age your ok if you've not got any symptoms. Even the top guys struggle up the hills, they just make it look prettier than us haha
> 
> I had really subtle symptoms prior to the actual event, jaw ache and neuralgia as well as a dull ache in the center of my chest during exercise. If you're not getting any of that then I'd say your good to go. Unless you have a history of premature CVD in the family (heart attack/stroke etc) in which case might be an idea to get yourself checked over anyway.
> 
> ...



Does anyone enjoy cycling up hill ? - or any other strenuous exercise - I get satisfaction from it, but when I going up a hill Im not actually enjoying it - same as working out in the gym - satisfaction not really enjoying that last rep with more weight than you've done previously. 

Anyway fitted the new sprocket - booked an appt with gp - going to call the asthma uk nurses today to go through current medication.

I am also going to swallow my pride and go out with the touring section of a local club -Id been holding off hoping to get fit enough to go with the faster groups - but while my peak flow is 350 don't think that is happening....

Many thanks for all the responses...


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## Roadhump (22 Aug 2017)

Good point / question. I am off out in the next half hour or so, and intend heading out to Ashurst Beacon near Skelmersdale, one of the more challenging hills around here. Thinking about your question, no I won't enjoy it as my heart pounds and my lungs gasp, but the endorphin glow when I have finished will be worth it, I hope, it usually is. Good luck.


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## ianrauk (22 Aug 2017)

I learnt to really enjoy hills on a trip to Spain last year. Well I say hill's. They were mountains. We climbed 36000 feet in 290 miles. Including the Pico De Veleta at 11500 ft over 30 miles. 
I found the trick was to get into the mindset of , 'OK it's here, I'm on it so let's take it easy and get on with it'. Not to push it too hard and just try to enjoy it. For me that worked. I did actually enjoy the climbing. 

But... that's in Spain. Totally different to climbing the Kent Downs and a cold, wet, dark sunday


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## kingrollo (22 Aug 2017)

Roadhump said:


> Good point / question. I am off out in the next half hour or so, and intend heading out to Ashurst Beacon near Skelmersdale, one of the more challenging hills around here. Thinking about your question, no I won't enjoy it as my heart pounds and my lungs gasp, but the endorphin glow when I have finished will be worth it, I hope, it usually is. Good luck.



For all you're 'not enjoying' - I am bit jealous sitting here in the office. Have a good ride mate.


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## Donger (22 Aug 2017)

I'm nearly 57, and have only really started taking on big hills/mountains in the last few years. I guess I'm probably much heavier than you (as I'm taller and heavier that the vast majority of people), so I totally get your concerns about overdoing it. I have done pretty much what @ianrauk and some of the others above have mentioned, and just sat back and enjoyed the hills at my own pace. I've opted for a bike with a granny ring on the front and a dinner plate of a 34T cassette at the back, and I just pace myself steadily.

Whenever my breathing seems to be getting out of control, I ease right off in the lowest gear I've got .... or even stop for a breather if absolutely necessary. On club rides, when we hit the big hills, I'm usually about the 8th or 9th man up out of 10 of us, but who cares? And a couple of others will have either put a foot down or taken the walk of shame at some point. I once took the opportunity to check out what deep, steady breathing does for you physiologically while using a gym bike, and it is remarkable how it can keep your heart rate under control. Of all the techniques I have used for surviving the hills, I think consciously keeping control of your breathing and easing off on the pedals when necessary is the best advice I can give you.


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## S-Express (22 Aug 2017)

Breathing is controlled by the autonomic nervous system - it should never be 'out of control'.


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## Donger (22 Aug 2017)

Meant to say "whenever my breathing is clearly insufficient to maintain a safe heart rate". When you find yourself gasping and your chest pounding, ease off and breathe deeper.


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## S-Express (22 Aug 2017)

Donger said:


> Meant to say "whenever my breathing is clearly insufficient to maintain a safe heart rate". When you find yourself gasping and your chest pounding, ease off and breathe deeper.


Unless you have been directed by a clinician to stay below a certain HR, then there is no such thing as an 'unsafe' HR. Your body will do it automatically.


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## Alan O (22 Aug 2017)

S-Express said:


> Breathing is controlled by the autonomic nervous system - it should never be 'out of control'.


Generally yes, but I think that needs some qualification. It's driven by CO2 levels and not by O2 levels (iirc - I researched it before an Everest base camp trek some years ago), so in cases when CO2 is being removed efficiently but O2 is still not sufficient, the autonomic system can lose control a little. It's partly why people suffer from altitude sickness, and why I needed to consciously breathe harder at high altitudes than my instinct told me in order to prevent feeling faint and dizzy. It's a really weird feeling - I didn't feel breathless, but my body was behaving as if it didn't have enough O2 (which it didn't).


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## Alan O (22 Aug 2017)

S-Express said:


> Unless you have been directed by a clinician to stay below a certain HR, then there is no such thing as an 'unsafe' HR. Your body will do it automatically.


I presume you don't mean to imply that people who actually do have a heart problem but have not been directed by a clinician (eg those with undiagnosed conditions) don't have an unsafe HR?

I don't mean to just be pedantic here, but when I was being treated for my heart condition I met many who had previously been totally unaware of their problems for years before they were diagnosed (as I was), some of whom had been dangerously over-exerting themselves (as I was).

If you have any reason to suspect a heart problem (age-related or not), I'd strongly advise avoiding excess exertion without getting yourself checked out.


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## S-Express (22 Aug 2017)

Alan O said:


> I presume you don't mean to imply that people who actually do have a heart problem but have not been directed by a clinician (eg those with undiagnosed conditions) don't have an unsafe HR?


Like I said before, if you don't know you have a heart condition, then there's not much you can do to mitigate.


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## Alan O (22 Aug 2017)

S-Express said:


> Like I said before, if you don't know you have a heart condition, then there's not much you can do to mitigate.


Sure, and I had no reason to suspect mine at all - but I'd just implore anyone who has any suspicion at all to get checked out.


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## kingrollo (22 Aug 2017)

Donger said:


> I'm nearly 57, and have only really started taking on big hills/mountains in the last few years. I guess I'm probably much heavier than you (as I'm taller and heavier that the vast majority of people), so I totally get your concerns about overdoing it. I have done pretty much what @ianrauk and some of the others above have mentioned, and just sat back and enjoyed the hills at my own pace. I've opted for a bike with a granny ring on the front and a dinner plate of a 34T cassette at the back, and I just pace myself steadily.
> 
> Whenever my breathing seems to be getting out of control, I ease right off in the lowest gear I've got .... or even stop for a breather if absolutely necessary. On club rides, when we hit the big hills, I'm usually about the 8th or 9th man up out of 10 of us, but who cares? And a couple of others will have either put a foot down or taken the walk of shame at some point. I once took the opportunity to check out what deep, steady breathing does for you physiologically while using a gym bike, and it is remarkable how it can keep your heart rate under control. Of all the techniques I have used for surviving the hills, I think consciously keeping control of your breathing and easing off on the pedals when necessary is the best advice I can give you.



I don't understand enjoy at your own pace! - these are 3/4 miles short but very steep climbs (18-25% in places) - I am already out of the saddle or else the bike wouldn't go forwards !


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## Oldfentiger (22 Aug 2017)

kingrollo said:


> I don't understand enjoy at your own pace! - these are 3/4 miles short but very steep climbs (18-25% in places) - I am already out of the saddle or else the bike wouldn't go forwards !


@Donger told you about his gearing, and that's the difference here.
My lowest gear is 34/32, which enables me to climb 20% gradients while still seated. If I feel like standing up I select 34/28 as it's actually easier!


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## Ian H (22 Aug 2017)

I quite enjoyed my Sunday ride over Exmoor and the Quantocks, mostly in pouring rain. Several arrowed roads and a 6km climb on to the moor. I did have to wait for my two, younger, companions (or, a couple of times, ride back down to meet one of them). See my post in 'Your ride today'.

I wasn't feeling all that fit at the beginning of the year, but a few long rides seem to have cured that.


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## CXRAndy (22 Aug 2017)

Oldfentiger said:


> @Donger told you about his gearing, and that's the difference here.
> My lowest gear is 34/32, which enables me to climb 20% gradients while still seated. If I feel like standing up I select 34/28 as it's actually easier!



What Cadence on these 20% hills? Do you like spin or grind with pedalling? I like to keep above 80 rpm where possible


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## Oldfentiger (22 Aug 2017)

CXRAndy said:


> What Cadence on these 20% hills? Do you like spin or grind with pedalling? I like to keep above 80 rpm where possible


Not much idea of cadence tbh. I'd guess between 60 and 80. Only works for me on short climbs of that gradient though .
I usually alternate between standing and sitting, and I suppose I'm somewhere between a grinder and a spinner. Is there a particular cadence which separates grinding and spinning?


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## kingrollo (22 Aug 2017)

Oldfentiger said:


> Not much idea of cadence tbh. I'd guess between 60 and 80. Only works for me on short climbs of that gradient though .
> I usually alternate between standing and sitting, and I suppose I'm somewhere between a grinder and a spinner. Is there a particular cadence which separates grinding and spinning?



Surely you can't spin while standing up ?


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## Oldfentiger (22 Aug 2017)

kingrollo said:


> Surely you can't spin while standing up ?


Which is why I go up a couple of cogs before getting out of the seat


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## CXRAndy (22 Aug 2017)

Oldfentiger said:


> Not much idea of cadence tbh. I'd guess between 60 and 80. Only works for me on short climbs of that gradient though .
> I usually alternate between standing and sitting, and I suppose I'm somewhere between a grinder and a spinner. Is there a particular cadence which separates grinding and spinning?



Spinning on the flat would be 90+rpm and grinding <75rpm, same for hills. Unless you're a lightweight, less than 12 stone or a youngster then general standard gearing 50/34 or 53/39 aren't sufficiently low enough to allow climbing hills comfortably at a candence of say 80 rpm. Triple cranks are still popular but becoming rarer. I went the other way and built a road bike around MTB gearing so have 40/28 crank. Being a bigger rider it allows me to stay in my comfort zone for spinning even on the steeper climbs or mountain climbs where staying at a pace and cadence which you can maintain for 2-3 hours


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## Shut Up Legs (22 Aug 2017)

kingrollo said:


> Does anyone enjoy cycling up hill ?


I do, in fact I find it more enjoyable than the descents.


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## Roadhump (23 Aug 2017)

Shut Up Legs said:


> I do, in fact I find it more enjoyable than the descents.


Indeed, descents can be quite hairy and dangerous, especially on a poor road surface. I came down a steep one yesterday and was constantly on my brakes, my thumbs and forefingers were aching like mad. It was tempting to let go of the brakes but apart from a couple of short stretches, would have been too dangerous to do so.


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## ianrauk (23 Aug 2017)

Roadhump said:


> Indeed, descents can be quite hairy and dangerous, especially on a poor road surface. I came down a steep one yesterday and was constantly on my brakes, my thumbs and forefingers were aching like mad. It was tempting to let go of the brakes but apart from a couple of short stretches, would have been too dangerous to do so.




Yep. I'm also one of those that although I do like descending at speed. It's only if I have great sight lines with not too many bends, corners or junctions. I really do not like descending round corners at speed.


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## Shut Up Legs (23 Aug 2017)

Roadhump said:


> Indeed, descents can be quite hairy and dangerous, especially on a poor road surface. I came down a steep one yesterday and was constantly on my brakes, my thumbs and forefingers were aching like mad. It was tempting to let go of the brakes but apart from a couple of short stretches, would have been too dangerous to do so.


Yes, my descent from Passo di Gavia to Bormio on 25th July was like that: it's quite a long descent, and my hands and wrists were a bit sore at the end of it. The fact that the road surface on that road is very poor didn't help, either. Don't get me wrong, though: I still enjoyed it, because it beats the hell out of cycling in Australia.


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## jonsablue (23 Aug 2017)

kingrollo said:


> Does anyone enjoy cycling up hill ? - or any other strenuous exercise - I get satisfaction from it, but when I going up a hill Im not actually enjoying it - same as working out in the gym - satisfaction not really enjoying that last rep with more weight than you've done previously.
> 
> Anyway fitted the new sprocket - booked an appt with gp - going to call the asthma uk nurses today to go through current medication.
> 
> ...



I do enjoy them haha might sound cliche but climbing makes me feel alive. It's an adrenaline rush going up and getting over them! Like I say.. If you don't enjoy them, why do them? We've nothing to prove have we, don't know about you but I'm not about to challenge Cav to a race anytime soon haha. Stick to the flats and build a good avg up over them instead!


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## jonsablue (23 Aug 2017)

Roadhump said:


> Good point / question. I am off out in the next half hour or so, and intend heading out to Ashurst Beacon near Skelmersdale, one of the more challenging hills around here. Thinking about your question, no I won't enjoy it as my heart pounds and my lungs gasp, but the endorphin glow when I have finished will be worth it, I hope, it usually is. Good luck.



Where abouts do you live? I'm off up ashy myself later but I usually approach it from shevi. Up bank brow, crow lane then down to hunters or Parbold! We're spoilt for climbs round here!


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## Roadhump (23 Aug 2017)

jonsablue said:


> Where abouts do you live? I'm off up ashy myself later but I usually approach it from shevi. Up bank brow, crow lane then down to hunters or Parbold! We're spoilt for climbs round here!


I live in Southport and usually get over there via Burscough and Newburgh. I have done Parbold Hill but being the main road to the M6 it is very busy and an artic got stuck behind me as I struggled up at about 7 to 8 mph. I actuallly felt sorry for the lorry driver, not only did he have a big hill slowing him down, but he was also stuck behind me which slowed him down even more. I decided that in future I would go up Hunter's Hill instead. I did that yesterday, then turned right into Stoney Lane at the Rigbye Arms, which is the steep descent I was on about in #158. It looks like it would be a hellish climb, even more so than Hunter's Hill.

As you probably know, from the bottom of Stoney Lane, you can drop into Parbold, which I did, then went up to the Beacon, turning round at the Prince William and heading home via Skem and Aughton where I climbed Clieves Hill, thus completing my mini South West Lancs 3 peaks.

Some of those other climbs you mention - Bank Brow (Bank Top?), Crow Lane, also Roby Mill nearby - are reputedly brutal and make the beacon look easy, might need a bit more practice before taking them on.


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## jonsablue (24 Aug 2017)

Roadhump said:


> I live in Southport and usually get over there via Burscough and Newburgh. I have done Parbold Hill but being the main road to the M6 it is very busy and an artic got stuck behind me as I struggled up at about 7 to 8 mph. I actuallly felt sorry for the lorry driver, not only did he have a big hill slowing him down, but he was also stuck behind me which slowed him down even more. I decided that in future I would go up Hunter's Hill instead. I did that yesterday, then turned right into Stoney Lane at the Rigbye Arms, which is the steep descent I was on about in #158. It looks like it would be a hellish climb, even more so than Hunter's Hill.
> 
> As you probably know, from the bottom of Stoney Lane, you can drop into Parbold, which I did, then went up to the Beacon, turning round at the Prince William and heading home via Skem and Aughton where I climbed Clieves Hill, thus completing my mini South West Lancs 3 peaks.
> 
> Some of those other climbs you mention - Bank Brow (Bank Top?), Crow Lane, also Roby Mill nearby - are reputedly brutal and make the beacon look easy, might need a bit more practice before taking them on.



Yes bank top! Its a very small but horrendous climb. However if I'd go up there over hunters anyday haha hunters is an horrendous climb. That final push is crazy. I actually go up parbold hill to avoid it. I went up it on the same day as the iron man comp few weeks back and got a round of applause from people sat outside the pub at the top of it haha I just waved and pretended I was an iron man.. ! yeah Stoney is a really nasty and long climb I believe. Not tried it yet but its on my to do list. Crows isn't too bad. It has some hard bits, but its just going up it after bank which is the hard part. Next time you go up to the beacon, take a right down hillock or dungeon lanes and at the bottom do a right onto Lee's lane. Follow that to the bottom then hang a right, that takes you straight onto bank top, climb that then stop at the pub at the top for a pint or four before carrying on. Take your first right again and that leads onto crow which will take you back to Dalton! Honestly if you can get up hunters you'll manage those ok!
Do you ever get over to rivington?


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## Roadhump (24 Aug 2017)

jonsablue said:


> Yes bank top! Its a very small but horrendous climb. However if I'd go up there over hunters anyday haha hunters is an horrendous climb. That final push is crazy. I actually go up parbold hill to avoid it. I went up it on the same day as the iron man comp few weeks back and got a round of applause from people sat outside the pub at the top of it haha I just waved and pretended I was an iron man.. ! yeah Stoney is a really nasty and long climb I believe. Not tried it yet but its on my to do list. Crows isn't too bad. It has some hard bits, but its just going up it after bank which is the hard part. Next time you go up to the beacon, take a right down hillock or dungeon lanes and at the bottom do a right onto Lee's lane. Follow that to the bottom then hang a right, that takes you straight onto bank top, climb that then stop at the pub at the top for a pint or four before carrying on. Take your first right again and that leads onto crow which will take you back to Dalton! Honestly if you can get up hunters you'll manage those ok!
> Do you ever get over to rivington?


Never been over to Rivington on the bike - I have progressed from the South West plain to the foothills, but not moved on the West Pennines yet . Me and Mrs Rh occasionally go over there walking, and I have seen people cycling around there and between there and Belmont - some real challenging stuff round there.

I'll keep popping over to the Parbold area to develop my "hill skill" and hopefully conquer some of those you mention. Another formidable couple of hills round there are the ones either side of Appley Bridge village (one of which I think is Bank Top), It is another place we walk around (Mrs Rh doesn't cycle) and looks quite daunting. Another thing about Hunter's Hill is that when you get to the Farmer's Arms at the bottom and scan the scenery, you can see the wall alongside the road as it ascends the hill, the gradient looks horrendous. It is as if someone is saying, "Come and have a go if you think you're hard enough" and laughing at you.

If you Google the names of these hills, you should find blogs and write ups about them from the Harry Middleton Cycling Club from Ormskirk who use them a lot, they are quite good to read.

Anyway, I am doing a nice gentle run down through Maghull and over to Crosby and back today as it's a westerly wind - any excuse to wimp out, although I will go via Clieves Hill, but that's a baby compared to Dalton and Parbold.


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## 3narf (24 Aug 2017)

Attack and keep attacking, until you feel ill or it isn't fun any more!


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## david k (26 Aug 2017)

kingrollo said:


> Im 54 in a couple of weeks - Ive always been a pretty crap cyclist, probably due to my lungs. I do (or did) pride myself on always getting over even the steepest of hills ...like 20% .....Im not fast but I always get there...
> 
> Anyway I stumbled on an unknown - but absolute monster of hill - it was a very tight narrow and small lane- I was blowing and groaning like nobodies business - then I spotted someones driveway sadly I bottled it and got off .......part of it was fear of car coming the other way - the road was just to damm narrow - and I didn't fancy ending up on my arse...
> 
> My question is at 54 is it dangerous to push yourself when your feel your heart coming out of your jersey ?



My doctor told me not to push it, he said doing so can be bad for you, peop,e think it's good as it makes them feel better, high achievement and all but it's not actually good to push to hard as you get older


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## S-Express (27 Aug 2017)

david k said:


> My doctor told me not to push it, he said doing so can be bad for you, peop,e think it's good as it makes them feel better, high achievement and all but it's not actually good to push to hard as you get older



Sounds like your doc is bit short on specifics..


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## david k (27 Aug 2017)

S-Express said:


> Sounds like your doc is bit short on specifics..



I didn't think so, he said don't do a triathlon, seems clear to me


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## screenman (27 Aug 2017)

david k said:


> I didn't think so, he said don't do a triathlon, seems clear to me



Maybe he would rather you sat on the sofa all day eating, unless you have a medical condition why should you not, jog, swim and cycle.


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## screenman (27 Aug 2017)

This nearly 62 year old still likes to get his heart working a lot.


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## jefmcg (27 Aug 2017)

david k said:


> I didn't think so, he said don't do a triathlon, seems clear to me


Well, it may have been specific in the room, but it's not here.

Did he mean no one should do a triathlon, no one over a certain age or just you?

And did he mean an sprint, olympic, long, half-ironman, ironman or ultra-ironman distance?

And if your doctor believes you couldn't train safely to enter a sprint triathlon (750m Swim, 20km Bike, 5km Run) aiming to finish not win, then you have serious underlying medical conditions I hope you are getting investigated and/or treated.


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## S-Express (27 Aug 2017)

david k said:


> I didn't think so, he said don't do a triathlon, seems clear to me



But did he say why?


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## jefmcg (27 Aug 2017)

User13710 said:


> David k has a heart condition, AF I think.


OK, and he should listen and follow his doctor's advice of course (as should anyone who has been given specific advice, or at least seek out a qualified person to give a second option).

But re-reading post #167, it still reads as if he feels that advice should apply to @kingrollo too.


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## david k (27 Aug 2017)

Apologies if my posts were misleading or lacked some history.

I've had AF but it's been sorted through a heart ablation, so yes his advice was probably in that context.

However he was talking more generally, and from memory it was the heart consultant at Liverpool hospital, he was referring more towards, long hard triathalons and pushing myself to the limit, rather than don't train within your limits.
I'm mid 40s and his advice if I recall correctly was about middle aged men pushing themselves very hard over sustained periods could do damage. Not that training within yourself isn't beneficial, and this followed a conversation about cycling, so he was probably just being cautious. I felt this was an additional insight into 'how much to push yourself' and IME working within my limits just feels better for me. 
Obviously this is just one opinion for people to consider, there may be other views from different people and doctors etc.


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## kingrollo (8 Sep 2017)

OP Here.
Went to GP explained the situation showed her 2 weeks of peak flow reading I was expecting all sorts of excuses and at best they would tweak my in inhalers. I was somewhat taken aback with how seriously she took it - I am now booked in for blood tests and a chest xray with a lung function test to follow dependent on the results of those.
I pushed for some sort of provisional diagnosis she said:-
1.Those with asthma\reliever inhaler use for many years some times the lungs go brittle and as such don't respond to inhalers
2.It might be a problem with small airways obstruction - and not really asthma at all
3.Worst of all and she was keen to stress this was only a theory - that cycling in built up areas is actually damaging the lungs due to pollution....

bit gutted by it all to be honest.


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## Duffy (9 Sep 2017)

kingrollo said:


> OP Here.
> Went to GP explained the situation showed her 2 weeks of peak flow reading I was expecting all sorts of excuses and at best they would tweak my in inhalers. I was somewhat taken aback with how seriously she took it - I am now booked in for blood tests and a chest xray with a lung function test to follow dependent on the results of those.
> I pushed for some sort of provisional diagnosis she said:-
> 1.Those with asthma\reliever inhaler use for many years some times the lungs go brittle and as such don't respond to inhalers
> ...



That's a bit of a sore one, here's hoping that she's just erring on the side of caution and that it's not as bad as that!


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## petek (9 Sep 2017)

65 here and my bike is heavy.
Hills had seemed to get steeper of late so traded up from a 3-speed to a 5-speed hub that has a kinder 1st gear.
Was getting off and pushing the bike up one slope, can ride it up there again now.
As long as someone is fit then by all means -with decent gearing- 'push yourself'.
Any doubts or twinges though, probs best to check with the doc first.


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