# Giving way to cars



## Markymark (31 Oct 2011)

Ok, am a driver and commuting cyclist but wondered who really should give way heere so please forgive the long-winded scenario!!

So, a car wants to come out of a left turning from a side road, the traffic on the main road is slow moving (crawling). A car flashes to let the car out of the turning to join the main road. There are a couple of cyclists who are slowly moving up the inside on the main road and are a few car lengths away from the car wanting to turn out in front of them. It would require them to slow down but certainly not a heavy brake.

It would appear that the car turning onto the road has seen the cyclists but figures they are far enough away for them to slow down safely. However, the cyclsist do not slow down making the car stop half way through its manouver and the cyclits to swerver aroudn the car.

My question is, is it unreasonable for the driver to assume the the cyclists will slow down when a car in front has allowed him to come out or should the driver wait for all cyclists to pass, or the cyclists to signal they agree to allow the car to pass out in front of them?

Hope this all makes sense!!


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## apollo179 (31 Oct 2011)

The car should give way to the cyclists / not pull out / wait till the cyclists have passed . However if the car does pull out then the cyclists should just do the sensible thing and give way / let a fellow road user out.
Simples.


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## Hip Priest (31 Oct 2011)

It is a tricky one. If it were me, undertaking traffic, I'd probably slow and let the car out.


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## MissTillyFlop (31 Oct 2011)

0-markymark-0 said:


> Ok, am a driver and commuting cyclist but wondered who really should give way heere so please forgive the long-winded scenario!!
> 
> So, a car wants to come out of a left turning from a side road, the traffic on the main road is slow moving (crawling). A car flashes to let the car out of the turning to join the main road. There are a couple of cyclists who are slowly moving up the inside on the main road and are a few car lengths away from the car wanting to turn out in front of them. It would require them to slow down but certainly not a heavy brake.
> 
> ...



I have been in the situation where a car has stopped and flashed another car through and I simply haven't seen there is a car waiting to turn and I have gone through.

This is usually when cars are turning right rather than left though.

If I see them the definitely stop - I hate it when noone will let you out!


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## ohnovino (31 Oct 2011)

Legally, the car coming out of the side road has to give way to all traffic, irrespective of how many wheels they have or whether someone else has flashed them out. However, any cyclist who filters at speed towards a junction thinking "it's okay, I've got the law on my side" is in the running for a Darwin Award.

I'd always slow/stop and let the car out, but then I'm a _very_ cautious filterer.


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## Toshiba Boy (31 Oct 2011)

ohnovino said:


> Legally, the car coming out of the side road has to give way to all traffic, irrespective of how many wheels they have or whether someone else has flashed them out. However, any cyclist who filters at speed towards a junction thinking "it's okay, I've got the law on my side" is in the running for a Darwin Award.
> 
> I'd always slow/stop and let the car out, but then I'm a _very_ cautious filterer.




+1


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## benb (31 Oct 2011)

In an ideal world I would expect the car to give way.

In the real world I will slow down and cover the brakes ready to slam on the anchors when they pull out, and am pleasantly surprised if they don't.

The worst ones are the ones that can only get half way out so completely block your path.


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## Mad at urage (31 Oct 2011)

0-markymark-0 said:


> Ok, am a driver and commuting cyclist but wondered who really should give way heere so please forgive the long-winded scenario!!
> 
> So, a car wants to come out of a left turning from a side road, the traffic on the main road is slow moving (crawling). A car flashes to let the car out of the turning to join the main road. There are a couple of cyclists who are slowly moving up the inside on the main road and are a few car lengths away from the car wanting to turn out in front of them. It would require them to slow down but certainly not a heavy brake.
> 
> ...


So, you are pulling out in front of me as I cycle along the main road (Whether a car has flashed its headlights at you means precisely nothing)?
I'll cover the brakes and ride around you. If you have to stop half-way through a manoevre you shouldn't have started, that's tough on you.


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## byegad (31 Oct 2011)

Wot Mad@urage sed! 

The prannet who flashed the car out was also in the wrong.


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## Mozzy (31 Oct 2011)

apollo179 said:


> The car should give way to the cyclists / not pull out / wait till the cyclists have passed . However if the car does pull out then the cyclists should just do the sensible thing and give way / let a fellow road user out.
> Simples.



100% +!


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## soulful dog (31 Oct 2011)

byegad said:


> The prannet who flashed the car out was also in the wrong.


It's not wrong, it's called courtesy.

Obviously he has no legal right to do so, but it's up to the driver who is pulling out of the side road to be aware of anyone else on the road and not just accept it's clear because another driver has flashed his lights to let him out. He should see the cyclists and wait to see if they are going to allow him to pull out too.

Then another +1 to what apollo179 said.


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## Fiona N (31 Oct 2011)

Basically why I don't filter down the inside of cars but overtake down the middle of the road - obviously still requires care so you're not in the wrong place when there's oncoming traffic but I feel very trapped on the inside, not to mention vulnerable to the dim door-openers, the right-turners into a gap in the traffic etc. I like to be out where I can see what's going on.


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## Mr Celine (31 Oct 2011)

I find it worrying that someone who is a driver and cyclist does not understand what 'give way' means.


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## MissTillyFlop (31 Oct 2011)

Fiona N said:


> Basically why I don't filter down the inside of cars but overtake down the middle of the road - obviously still requires care so you're not in the wrong place when there's oncoming traffic but I feel very trapped on the inside, not to mention vulnerable to the dim door-openers, the right-turners into a gap in the traffic etc. I like to be out where I can see what's going on.



Not necessarily filtering though - if you're in the cycle/bus lane, then many cars will stop in the lane next to you, obscuring turning traffic.


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## Rob500 (31 Oct 2011)

A driver emerging from a side road has to decide for themselves if it is safe. The flashing of lights actually means nothing.


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## Bicycle (31 Oct 2011)

The question is a perfectly reasonable one.

My thoughts:

1. Be wary at all times of someone 'flashing a driver out'. The flashing of headlights does not (under law) mean anything other than "I'm here". This despite the fact that almost all of us use it otherwise.

2. Those who have said that the car shouldn't pull out until all traffic has given way are right. So the cyclist has every right to continue.

3. Sometimes (shock horror) bicycles are hard to see, so don't be surprised at being missed in this instance. A low sun may not help at this time of year, or the fact that after dark your lights will be almost invisible next to a car's dipped beams... or your silhouette may be hidden by street furniture behind you. Even the car's pillars may partially obscure you.

4. Generally, the more people I let out into traffic, the better my day. I think there is much to be said for just being universally lovely to all other road users. So I'd stop even though you have (in the case you cite) no legal obligation to do so.


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## gaz (31 Oct 2011)

I have this scenario everyday, including having it from the right.
The best thing to do is slow down and let the car go, it's not worth proving your self right if you get your self knocked over.


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## Black Sheep (31 Oct 2011)

I went into the side of a car that was pulling out, having been flashed - thankfully no damage and the driver was not ranting and raving but did ask why I didn't stop since a car had flashed her out 

"I didn't know she'd flashed" was my reply. 

as has already been said, flashing the lights means nothing, it can be used as warning of presence in place of a horn, in Spain it means "oi you <swear filter>" but it is often regarded as "after you" in the situation we're talking about. 

however, it is heavily stressed in the highway code (which is not always law) that regardless of what anyone else is doing / saying, you must check and decide for yourself if it is safe to go.


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## rowan 46 (31 Oct 2011)

courtesy is a strange thing. with some motorists it means what cyclists do to make their lives easier. My partner drives not myself but when I have been in the car I have pointed out to her that it's harder to get a bike going after stopping on a hill than it is for the bike to keep going. She now in my presence at least gives the cyclist a lot more time most especially in inclement weather, as she pointed out "I'm in a nice dry warm car look what those poor devils are having to put up with" I think that's courteous thinking of others discomfort.


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## Svendo (31 Oct 2011)

Taking another perspective, in civil court cases deciding liability following such incidents that led to a collision and consequent claims (admittedly usually involving motorcycles filtering rather than bicycles) the liability is often split as filtering is a risky practice and extra care should be taken, especially regarding traffic turning into or across queuing traffic. Some examples here.
Remember also the Highway Code says that you should always give way when doing so would prevent an accident, and common sense suggests to me that it is wise to expect drivers to be rubbish (and be happily suprised when they're not!).


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## Edge705 (31 Oct 2011)

OK I'll throw another scenario into the ring and this happened to me not more than two weeks ago WHAT IF in the same situation there was a cycle lane on the left hand side of the road and to give the car drivers a clue its in red tarmac with pictures of bikes painted into the road so the car pulling out would have to cross or obstruct the cycle lane to be on its way?

I disagree the cyclist must slow down the car driver must wait until the cyclists have passed he can only move forward if it is safe to do so in this case and mine it may have endangered other road users

I agree the car flashing it out is also in the wrong but this happens all the time and whilst it may be perceived as a kind gesture it can put other road users in trouble this is also a cyclists nightmare and happens more often than it should 

Im convinced if I was not a car driver of many years experience I rekon I would have been in quite a few accidents as a commuting cyclist the two serious ones I have had have been as a result of road defects/maintenace and not an impact with other road users.


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## Little yellow Brompton (31 Oct 2011)

0-markymark-0 said:


> Ok, am a driver and commuting cyclist but wondered who really should give way heere so please forgive the long-winded scenario!!
> 
> So, a car wants to come out of a left turning from a side road, the traffic on the main road is slow moving (crawling). A car flashes to let the car out of the turning to join the main road. There are a couple of cyclists who are slowly moving up the inside on the main road and are a few car lengths away from the car wanting to turn out in front of them. It would require them to slow down but certainly not a heavy brake.
> 
> ...



The road markings say "give way" , if there are no marking then he gives way to traffic on the right. Whichever way you look at it he waits.

The real problem of course is the muppet in the car that flashes their lights, makes all sorts of weird hand signals and subverts the establsihed rules of the road.


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## Little yellow Brompton (31 Oct 2011)

Mad@urage said:


> So, you are pulling out in front of me as I cycle along the main road (Whether a car has flashed its headlights at you means precisely nothing)?
> I'll cover the brakes and ride around you. If you have to stop half-way through a manoevre you shouldn't have started, that's tough on you.



+1


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## Little yellow Brompton (31 Oct 2011)

soulful dog said:


> It's not wrong, it's called courtesy.



courtesy to who? The cyclsits in the traffic around him, the traffic waiting behind him, the one vehicle who will now not get through the next light change?

If you think it's courtesy, I suggest you try it the next time you are in a line at the till in Tesco's , see what the people behind you think about your courtesy.


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## Bay Runner (31 Oct 2011)

Bicycle said:


> The question is a perfectly reasonable one.
> 
> My thoughts:
> 
> 1. Be wary at all times of someone 'flashing a driver out'. The flashing of headlights does not (under law) mean anything other than "I'm here". This despite the fact that almost all of us use it otherwise.




+ 1


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## slowmotion (31 Oct 2011)

If there is a gap in slow-moving traffic near a side turning, I usually suspect that someone is going to use it, either from the left or from the right. I slow slown, cover the brakes and expect the worst. I don't consider my "rights". I've got the same attitude to left and right hooks. I just want to stay alive and not spend too much time being angry.

OMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM.


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## BikeLiker (1 Nov 2011)

Legally the car should give way - the give way sign cannot be voided by another driver flashing their lights which is supposed to be a warning anyway although most people, me included, use it as a signal to pull out.
Out of courtesy though, the cyclists might want to slow.
The problem is what this leads to. I had a similar experience descending a steep hump back bridge on wet roads following a car doing about 25mph. Although the road wasn't particularly busy the car in front braked suddenly and flashed a car out of a side road, which began to pull out. I was too close to stop (my fault) so bellowed more in fear than anger and after some hesitation the emerging car stopped. This is the problem with pulling out - just because one driver lets you go doesn't mean others will and the driver who crosses the give way will ALWAYS be in the wrong as far as the law is concerned.


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## Bicycle (1 Nov 2011)

Little yellow Brompton said:


> courtesy to who? The cyclsits in the traffic around him, the traffic waiting behind him, the one vehicle who will now not get through the next light change?
> 
> If you think it's courtesy, I suggest you try it the next time you are in a line at the till in Tesco's , see what the people behind you think about your courtesy.




It is courtesy. It's courtesy towards other road users.

The OP had said that traffic was crawling. The only way under these circumstances that traffic has any chance of joining from side roads is if other road users let it in.

In doing so, many drivers will flash or make unusual hand signals. That doesn't make the driver a muppet. It is courteous and to be applauded.

However, the driver who flashes (however we interpret the signal) cannot say "We are all letting you out". He or she is at best just saying "I for one am happy for you to emerge".

At crawling speed it is to be expected that drivers will let other vehicles into the traffic stream. Indeed, it is to be hoped for. 

A cyclist should therefore expect people waiting at side turnings to be 'flashed out'. Notwithstanding what I've already said about flashing meaning very little under law, it is one of the commonly used methods for letting vehicles into traffic.

The comparison with a queue at Tesco is an odd one. It does not mirror the scenario. Checkouts at supermarkets work perfectly well without anyone letting other shoppers 'push into' a queue already formed.

The implication of your Tesco comparison is that every driver behind the courteous one would feel somehow frustrated at being moved back in the 'queue' by one vehicle length. I think anyone who has driven for more than seven minutes will accept both the inevitability of this and the wider benefit to traffic flow that compensates for the ten seconds added to a journey.

In rush hour, traffic systems would grind to a halt fairly quickly if no-one let anyone else in. Letting other vehicles into a stream of traffic is common courtesy and I think most drivers both benefit by it and accept the need for it.


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## cd365 (1 Nov 2011)

Little yellow Brompton said:


> courtesy to who? The cyclsits in the traffic around him, the traffic waiting behind him, the one vehicle who will now not get through the next light change?
> 
> If you think it's courtesy, I suggest you try it the next time you are in a line at the till in Tesco's , see what the people behind you think about your courtesy.



Wow, what an attitude to have. Yes it is courtesy to let another car out of the side road, in this instance the person who pulled out was not coreous to the cyclists because they should have seen them and waited until it was safe to pull out, that was just bad driving. But the person who was kind enough to pause to let them out was a good citizen.

I have let people push in front of me in the line at Tesco's when they have a small number of items and I have a trolley full.

Treat others how you expect to be treated.


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## Hip Priest (1 Nov 2011)

The Tesco analogy is misleading. Letting someone jump a queue is not equivalent to letting someone join a line of traffic from another direction. I agree with the post above - our traffic system would grind to a half if nobody let anybody out of junctions.


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## Hip Priest (1 Nov 2011)

cd365 said:


> I have let people push in front of me in the line at Tesco's when they have a small number of items and I have a trolley full.



An old lady did that to me in M&S last week as I only had a sandwich. Of course I replied 'No! It is your right to go before me. Read the supermarket code! Look yourself up on Youtube!'


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## vernon (1 Nov 2011)

cd365 said:


> Wow, what an attitude to have. Yes it is courtesy to let another car out of the side road, in this instance the person who pulled out was not coreous to the cyclists because they should have seen them and waited until it was safe to pull out, that was just bad driving. But the person who was kind enough to pause to let them out was a good citizen.
> 
> I have let people push in front of me in the line at Tesco's when they have a small number of items and I have a trolley full.
> 
> Treat others how you expect to be treated.



Some people have low expectations.......


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## martint235 (1 Nov 2011)

Yep in the OP legally the cyclist has priority (as stated flashing of lights means nothing and even if it did, it's not the car's priority to give away). However it all depends on how I'm feeling, if it's been a good day, I'll signal to the car that I'm also happy for them to move across me. If it's not been a good day, I'll go around his bonnet and give glares to the driver pulling out and the driver who flashed.

It is courtesy but how courteous I am depends on my day. If it is a bad day, my justification will be how many cars would stop to allow a cyclist to perform the same manouevre.


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## PK99 (1 Nov 2011)

Hip Priest said:


> The Tesco analogy is misleading. Letting someone jump a queue is not equivalent to letting someone join a line of traffic from another direction. I agree with the post above - our traffic system would grind to a half if nobody let anybody out of junctions.



In a slow traffic queue i regularly let cyclists join from a side road


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## benb (1 Nov 2011)

I don't think anyone is suggesting that no-one should let traffic join from a side road. But the car joining needs to check that it's safe, regardless of whether they have been flashed or not. It may well be the case that the cyclist will allow them out, but they shouldn't assume it, and (again in an ideal world) the cyclist should be able to rely on the car not to come out until it is safe to do so.

In the real world, we should all anticipate that a car will come out if they have been flashed, but that doesn't make it right.


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## Hip Priest (1 Nov 2011)

benb said:


> I don't think anyone is suggesting that no-one should let traffic join from a side road.



Err...Little Yellow Brompton seemed to be suggesting exactly that.


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## Markymark (1 Nov 2011)

The reason I asked this is becuase, as a cyclist, I rarely see other cyclsists let anyone out. The car trying to join the main road will be stuck there unless someone is courteous enough to let them out. The scenario I was trying to give, but maybe not completely clear, was that the cyclists were far enough away that them just slowing down would be enough to let the car out. 

It would appear that some of the posters here would not allow this and would keep cycing at current speed as is their right...although maybe I gave the scenario to be understood as the cyclsists would have to quickly stop.


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## snailracer (1 Nov 2011)

*HC Rule 151:*
_In slow-moving traffic. You should...

_
_allow access into and from side roads, as blocking these will add to congestion_
_be aware of cyclists and motorcyclists who may be passing on either side_
PS To me, "allow access" means not blocking the side road, it doesn't mean cyclists should give way.


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## freecyclist (1 Nov 2011)

Little yellow Brompton said:


> courtesy to who? The cyclsits in the traffic around him, the traffic waiting behind him, the one vehicle who will now not get through the next light change?
> 
> If you think it's courtesy, I suggest you try it the next time you are in a line at the till in Tesco's , see what the people behind you think about your courtesy.



Idiotic Nonsense.


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## benb (1 Nov 2011)

Hip Priest said:


> Err...Little Yellow Brompton seemed to be suggesting exactly that.



Where?


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## benb (1 Nov 2011)

0-markymark-0 said:


> The reason I asked this is becuase, as a cyclist, I rarely see other cyclsists let anyone out. The car trying to join the main road will be stuck there unless someone is courteous enough to let them out. The scenario I was trying to give, but maybe not completely clear, was that the cyclists were far enough away that them just slowing down would be enough to let the car out.
> 
> It would appear that some of the posters here would not allow this and would keep cycing at current speed as is their right...although maybe I gave the scenario to be understood as the cyclsists would have to quickly stop.



I would happily let a car join, as long as there is room for them to get all the way out and not block my route. What I object to is them assuming we're going to let them out, or simply forcing their way out with no consideration for us.


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## Hip Priest (1 Nov 2011)

benb said:


> Where?



Err...the post where he claims that letting people out is discourteous and akin to allowing someone to jump a supermarket queue.


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## akb (1 Nov 2011)

Ive been in this position before, but in my car. Was night time, traffic was chocka and a car was indicating to turn across the lane, so I flashed to let him in. Being a cyclist I always check mirrors before doing this to make sure that there is no one filtering on my left (which IMHO is a no-no anyway, but people still do it) and it proved clear. 
Just as the other driver was about to complete his maneuver, Ninja cyclist appears at my wing mirror. Luckily the mrs had her window open so I managed to shout stop to him, which he fortunately did. 
Then questioned the lack of lights and his filtering position; he was oblivious to breaking the law without any lights on as I had just proven and didnt seem to understand my concern at his safety. 

So my point is this: I am sure, that if you drive, there will be times when you flash someone without checking for cyclists. Ive only been cycling for a year now, and in the above situation, before cycling I dare say that I wouldn't have checked my mirrors for cyclists. 

My 2p worth.


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## gaz (1 Nov 2011)

0-markymark-0 said:


> The reason I asked this is becuase, as a cyclist, I rarely see other cyclsists let anyone out. The car trying to join the main road will be stuck there unless someone is courteous enough to let them out. The scenario I was trying to give, but maybe not completely clear, was that the cyclists were far enough away that them just slowing down would be enough to let the car out.
> 
> It would appear that some of the posters here would not allow this and would keep cycing at current speed as is their right...although maybe I gave the scenario to be understood as the cyclsists would have to quickly stop.


It's a little harder for a cyclist to let someone out.
For starters we don't have brake lights so we first have to warn drivers behind us we are stopping or slowing.
Then we have to indicate to other road users that we are letting them out.
Flashing your lights is common in a car but not do easy on a bike. Any sort of flash from a bike is just percieved as being your light.


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## akb (1 Nov 2011)

> Any sort of flash from a bike



You flash a lot then Gaz?


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## Dan B (1 Nov 2011)

I don't flash people to let them out. I may stop for them, but then they can make their own mind up whether it's safe to proceed or not.


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## Chris S (1 Nov 2011)

Having right of way is no good if you end up dead or injured. Give way unless it's safe not to do so.


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## benb (1 Nov 2011)

Hip Priest said:


> Err...the post where he claims that letting people out is discourteous and akin to allowing someone to jump a supermarket queue.



It seemed to me that LYB meant that cars shouldn't assume they can come out just because someone flashed them out.
I could be wrong though, maybe LYB would care to clarify.


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## Little yellow Brompton (1 Nov 2011)

cd365 said:


> Wow, what an attitude to have. Yes it is courtesy to let another car out of the side road, in this instance the person who pulled out was not coreous to the cyclists because they should have seen them and waited until it was safe to pull out, that was just bad driving. But the person who was kind enough to pause to let them out was a good citizen.
> 
> I have let people push in front of me in the line at Tesco's when they have a small number of items and I have a trolley full.
> 
> Treat others how you expect to be treated.




He was a "good citizen" by altering the highway code and the RTA whilst not bothering looking for other traffic( The cyclsit). If that's a "good" citizen I shudder to think what a bad one is!

As for treating others etc... That's exactly what I do, I don't expect to be let out, I normally ignore people who are making tits of themselves flashing , hooting, waving, gesticulatingf etc...

IME these muppets come in two categories:-

Those that don't bother looking in the mirror to see the traffic that they are delaying by pushing people back , one by one by one.
Those that don't look in their mirror to notice that there is no traffic at all behind them and that everyone else would get around much easier if they just got on with life rather than tryign to seek a warm glow for being nice.

The really intersting ones are those that flash, but then don't wait, or even more interesting are the ones that flash when there are two vehicles trying to occupy the same space from opposing difrections . Life would be so much simpler if people just stuck to the HC and what they were taught rather than inventing some misplaced idea that they owe courtesy to those behind the giveway line and none to those behind them.


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## Little yellow Brompton (1 Nov 2011)

benb said:


> It seemed to me that LYB meant that cars shouldn't assume they can come out just because someone flashed them out.
> I could be wrong though, maybe LYB would care to clarify.




I mean it's a very narrow point of view to see "courtesy" as only being in one direction. The HC was written for a reason, it's not courtueous to start using a personal version of it. The muppets that flash, wave, etc are the same ones that effectivley reduce motorways to two lanes for a mile around every junction, by pulling into the middle lane rather than allowing the traffic in the two outer lanes to proceed and the traffic joining to find a space. Actions extend in all directions not just the one that you are trying to be courteous to.


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## Bicycle (1 Nov 2011)

Little yellow Brompton said:


> I mean it's a very narrow point of view to see "courtesy" as only being in one direction. The HC was written for a reason, it's not courtueous to start using a personal version of it. The muppets that flash, wave, etc are the same ones that effectivley reduce motorways to two lanes for a mile around every junction, by pulling into the middle lane rather than allowing the traffic in the two outer lanes to proceed and the traffic joining to find a space. Actions extend in all directions not just the one that you are trying to be courteous to.




I'm not sure anyone on this thread does see courtesy operating only in one direction. 

As to the Motorway point, I keep to the inside lane unless passing, but when approaching a sliproad I have a look for traffic joining the Motorway. If there is traffic and its speed and likely direction are taking it towards a place whose proximity to the projected location of my vehicle is likely to present a hazard, I check my mirror, indicate and move to the middle lane (or on the M50 the only other lane).

Sometimes I have to accelarate to achieve this. Sometimes a vehicle behind me and travelling faster will move across to the outside lane to let me in. 

When approaching a junction on a Motorway, I expect to see cars in the inside lane moving to the right to allow joining traffic unimpeded access. I do quite a lot of Motorway miles and am not familiar with the 'reduction of a Motorway to two lanes' that you refer to.

At peak times the M5 and M4 (inter alia) can be a bit of a bore, but that is not because of courteous drivers allowing traffic to join the road.

I've read your posts on this topic LYB - and I am beginning to think you might be pulling our legs.

If so, it's been huge fun and you win!

If not.... I find I disagree with the driving style you advocate.  

Do tell. Was it a wind-up?


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## Hip Priest (1 Nov 2011)

I took a motorway lesson after passing my test and was advised to move over to allow traffic to join from the sliproad. Letting people in and out of junctions is one of the few nice things strangers do for each other in this country. It's a shame that such a friendly act is considered muppetry by some.


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## Little yellow Brompton (1 Nov 2011)

Bicycle said:


> I'm not sure anyone on this thread does see courtesy operating only in one direction.
> 
> As to the Motorway point, I keep to the inside lane unless passing, but when approaching a sliproad I have a look for traffic joining the Motorway. If there is traffic and its speed and likely direction are taking it towards a place whose proximity to the projected location of my vehicle is likely to present a hazard, I check my mirror, indicate and move to the middle lane (or on the M50 the only other lane).
> 
> ...




Lots of people seem to have got wound up about it.


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## Dan_h (1 Nov 2011)

User said:


> So give in to bullying behaviour you mean?



I kind of feel that on a bike we are not on an even footing with someone in a car. If the individual indulging in the bullying is surrounded by a ton of metal and able to cause a lot of damage with it (either intentionally or just through impatience and stupidity) then I would give the bully their way. Also if they are trying to ignorantly push their way out are they really someone you want to overtake you further down the road?


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## Bicycle (1 Nov 2011)

User said:


> So give in to bullying behaviour you mean?



Was a reply to the following from Chris S:

_"Having right of way is no good if you end up dead or injured. Give way unless it's safe not to do so."
_
I'm not sure the two notions are mutually inclusive. Giving way unless it's not safe to do so does not imply giving in to bullying behaviour.

I agree with Chris that having right of way is no good if you're dead or injured. I also generally give way. This is usually not to prevent injury or death, but because it seems courteous.

(Having said that, I recall only one time when I was subjected to bullying behaviour and I was driving a car at the time. So was the other party.)


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## PK99 (1 Nov 2011)

Little yellow Brompton said:


> I mean it's a very narrow point of view to see "courtesy" as only being in one direction. The HC was written for a reason, it's not courtueous to start using a personal version of it. The muppets that flash, wave, etc are the same ones that effectivley reduce motorways to two lanes for a mile around every junction, by pulling into the middle lane rather than allowing the traffic in the two outer lanes to proceed and the traffic joining to find a space. Actions extend in all directions not just the one that you are trying to be courteous to.



If following the highway code there is no need to flash or signal to let someone out of a side road in queued traffic as you should already have stopped such as to leave access into and out of the side road clear.


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## roadrunner20 (1 Nov 2011)

apollo179 said:


> The car should give way to the cyclists / not pull out / wait till the cyclists have passed . However if the car does pull out then the cyclists should just do the sensible thing and give way / let a fellow road user out.
> Simples.



As he said, the driver should let the cyclists pass as they dont "have to" let him come out.

But most people /cyclists will let the car out if he is allready coming out.


I say this but you must be careful as the cyclists cannot see the car in front flashing and such doesnt know you being "let out", so slowly move out if being let out by another road user.


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## Mad at urage (1 Nov 2011)

Little yellow Brompton said:


> I mean it's a very narrow point of view to see "courtesy" as only being in one direction. The HC was written for a reason, it's not courtueous to start using a personal version of it. The muppets that flash, wave, etc are the same ones that effectivley reduce motorways to two lanes for a mile around every junction, by pulling into the middle lane rather than allowing the traffic in the two outer lanes to proceed and the traffic joining to find a space. Actions extend in all directions not just the one that you are trying to be courteous to.


When driving, I'll flash lights at other vehicles to draw attention to my road position, including if I'm stopped with a gap for them in front of me. I don't expect them to rely on that to decide to pull out. When flashed or waved at by vehicles or the drivers/riders I don't let that inform my decision about whether it is safe to pull out. I don't hog the centre lane, I do however move out to the centre lane to allow vehicles off the entry ramp, as they will otherwise be in danger of running out of acceleration room at the end of the ramp which is dangerous for them and for those on the motorway, when they try to enter from 0mph.

The fact that one driver flashed at another meant precisely nothing, except that at that instant his lights were working; his switch may have been malfunctioning, producing a flash - or he might, at that instant have been prepared to let the driver out.

As I said I'd cover my brakes and proceed. I have every right to maintain my pace and stop-starting is more problematic for cyclists in terms of journey time, than it is for motor vehicles. There is however a reason would cover the brakes... Generally I overtake rather than filtering up the inside* anyway, unless there is clearly a lane provided for me to proceed with caution. 


*Except when filtering between two lanes of traffic moving in the same direction.


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## Little yellow Brompton (1 Nov 2011)

PK99 said:


> If following the highway code there is no need to flash or signal to let someone out of a side road in queued traffic as you should already have stopped such as to leave access into and out of the side road clear.



Exactly! So I ask again, by using the lights in a manner not intended by either the RTA or the HC , by inventing new hand signals of dubious clarity, by fostering an expectation that the give way line is optional, who is being courteous to who?


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## Little yellow Brompton (1 Nov 2011)

PK99 said:


> If following the highway code there is no need to flash or signal to let someone out of a side road in queued traffic as you should already have stopped such as to leave access into and out of the side road clear.



Exactly! So I ask again, by using the lights in a manner not intended by either the RTA or the HC , by inventing new hand signals of dubious clarity, by fostering an expectation that the give way line is optional, who is being courteous to who?


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## PK99 (1 Nov 2011)

Little yellow Brompton said:


> Exactly! So I ask again, by using the lights in a manner not intended by either the RTA or the HC , by inventing new hand signals of dubious clarity, by fostering an expectation that the give way line is optional, who is being courteous to who?



Ah I see it now: you are saying it is right to allow people out from the side road to join the queue as the highway code suggests (counter to your post earlier in the thread about queues in tesco) it is just the flasing part ypu object to?


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## Little yellow Brompton (1 Nov 2011)

PK99 said:


> Ah I see it now: you are saying it is right to allow people out from the side road to join the queue as the highway code suggests (counter to your post earlier in the thread about queues in tesco) it is just the flasing part ypu object to?



There is a major difference between following the HC and allowing space for others to join the road , and not following the HC, clogging up the junctions, negating the give way signs, holding up traffic behind and around you, and causing dangerous confusion by making unrecognised signals.

I would still sugggest that you would have a problem with the people behind you in Tesco's if you stopped, mimed to someone to go infront of you, whilst the cashier waited, holding up everyone else, they let somone else go in front of them etc... just to get a little warm glow for yourself.


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## Hip Priest (1 Nov 2011)

Little yellow Brompton said:


> I would still sugggest that you would have a problem with the people behind you in Tesco's if you stopped, mimed to someone to go infront of you, whilst the cashier waited, holding up everyone else, they let somone else go in front of them etc... just to get a little warm glow for yourself.



Isn't there something in the scouting promise about doing good deeds for others?


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## Little yellow Brompton (1 Nov 2011)

Hip Priest said:


> Isn't there something in the scouting promise about doing good deeds for others?



You seem , again, to be focusing in only one direction. Is it a "good deed" to save 1 person time if holding up X people, and endangering Y people?


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## PK99 (1 Nov 2011)

Little yellow Brompton said:


> There is a major difference between following the HC and allowing space for others to join the road , and not following the HC, clogging up the junctions, negating the give way signs, holding up traffic behind and around you, and causing dangerous confusion by making unrecognised signals.
> 
> I would still sugggest that you would have a problem with the people behind you in Tesco's if you stopped, mimed to someone to go infront of you, whilst the cashier waited, holding up everyone else, they let somone else go in front of them etc... just to get a little warm glow for yourself.



The Tesco comparison is a straw man completely of your own invention and adds nothing to the discussion.
As is your comment here about clogging up junctions and holding up traffic behind you as the whole point of the thread is not clogging up junctions and giving way.


In slow moving/queued traffic where a road joins from the left, the unauthorised signals of which you complain are in practice simply a signal that the driver is actually going to follow the highway code. ie the traffic behind is not further delayed in any way.


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## Bicycle (1 Nov 2011)

Little yellow Brompton said:


> There is a major difference between following the HC and allowing space for others to join the road , and not following the HC, clogging up the junctions, negating the give way signs, holding up traffic behind and around you, and causing dangerous confusion by making unrecognised signals.



I won't get into the Tesco analogy - I and others questioned its relevance earlier in the thread.

I understand the semantic distinction beteween allowing traffic in (correst and sanctioned) and flashing/using hand gestures (not officially recognised but widely practised).

However, I'm not sure where the above HC rant leaves you in terms of your earlier statement that drivers moving right to let vehicles onto a Motorway were muppets who inconvenience those behind them and reduce three lanes effectively to two.

Everyone I know considers it courteous, correct and admirable both to allow traffic in from side roads when vehicles are crawling and to move right at a Motorway junction to allow traffic to join smoothly.

You differ. Have you thought of using another supermarket? Customers at Morrison's and Asda are ghastly, I'm told. They would probably approve of your queueing etiquette.


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## Little yellow Brompton (1 Nov 2011)

Bicycle said:


> Everyone I know considers it courteous, correct and admirable both to allow traffic in from side roads when vehicles are crawling and to move right at a Motorway junction to allow traffic to join smoothly.



The motoring public are reknowned for not reading the HC since one hour before their driving test and thinking that they are above average drivers, everyone you know seem to fall into this category.


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## Little yellow Brompton (1 Nov 2011)

PK99 said:


> The Tesco comparison is a straw man completely of your own invention and adds nothing to the discussion.
> As is your comment here about clogging up junctions and holding up traffic behind you as the whole point of the thread is not clogging up junctions and giving way.
> 
> 
> In slow moving/queued traffic where a road joins from the left, the unauthorised signals of which you complain are in practice simply a signal that the driver is actually going to follow the highway code. ie the traffic behind is not further delayed in any way.



Of course they are. In the correct technique the vehicle joining is the road width ahead of the car on the main road, if both vehicles started moving at the same time and accelerated at the same rate the jling vehcile slips into the gap. With the incorrect technique the vehicle in front starts moving, muppet on mai nraod starts hisi flash dance, whilst this is happening neither car is moving, then the joining vehicle moves out and wastes time doing the t"hank you so much how would I ever have got anywhere if you kind kind kind courteous sir hadn't let me out " waving dance, then the warm glow hunter waves back before eventaully moving off. Repeat ad naseum along ,lenght of road and tell me that courtesy is being shown to the poor sap at the end of the loooong line


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## PK99 (1 Nov 2011)

Little yellow Brompton said:


> Of course they are. In the correct technique the vehicle joining is the road width ahead of the car on the main road, if both vehicles started moving at the same time and accelerated at the same rate the jling vehcile slips into the gap. With the incorrect technique the vehicle in front starts moving, muppet on mai nraod starts hisi flash dance, whilst this is happening neither car is moving, then the joining vehicle moves out and wastes time doing the t"hank you so much how would I ever have got anywhere if you kind kind kind courteous sir hadn't let me out " waving dance, then the warm glow hunter waves back before eventaully moving off. Repeat ad naseum along ,lenght of road and tell me that courtesy is being shown to the poor sap at the end of the loooong line



You really do have this straw-man lark down to a fine art don't you?


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## snorri (1 Nov 2011)

Little yellow Brompton said:


> Of course they are. In the correct technique the vehicle joining is the road width ahead of the car on the main road, if both vehicles started moving at the same time and accelerated at the same rate the jling vehcile slips into the gap. With the incorrect technique the vehicle in front starts moving, muppet on mai nraod starts hisi flash dance, whilst this is happening neither car is moving, then the joining vehicle moves out and wastes time doing the t"hank you so much how would I ever have got anywhere if you kind kind kind courteous sir hadn't let me out " waving dance, then the warm glow hunter waves back before eventaully moving off. Repeat ad naseum along ,lenght of road and tell me that courtesy is being shown to the poor sap at the end of the loooong line



I'll condense that for you,"Having painted myself into a corner, I'd rather just forget about the whole thing"


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## Little yellow Brompton (1 Nov 2011)

snorri said:


> I'll condense that for you,"Having painted myself into a corner, I'd rather just forget about the whole thing"



Is that a long winded way of saying " I have no response"?


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## Bicycle (1 Nov 2011)

Little yellow Brompton said:


> The motoring public are reknowned for not reading the HC since one hour before their driving test and thinking that they are above average drivers, everyone you know seem to fall into this category.




Ha ha ha ha....  

The cycling public, on the other hand, are paragons of every virtue known to man. Perhaps.

Your use of massive generalisation about the driving public and my entire social group is consistent if nothing else.

I've put my case and stand by every word I've contibuted to this thread.

We appear to disagree. That suits me very well. 

I shall continue to let other road users into slow-moving traffic from side roads and continue to move to the right to allow other drivers onto Motorways.

If I didn't have my groceries delivered to my door, I'd also be happy to let little old ladies with one tin of cat food in front of my in the supermarket queue.

Sometimes I'm surprised by how little aggression I attract on the highway. Sometimes I'm not surprised at all.


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## soulful dog (1 Nov 2011)

This thread is just a reminder that you should never expect anything from other road users. Logic, common courtesy, road sense, whatever, it's all subjective.

Oh, and that the world is apparently made up of LyB and the remaining 6.99 billion of us are muppets!


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## Little yellow Brompton (1 Nov 2011)

soulful dog said:


> This thread is just a reminder that you should never expect anything from other road users. Logic, common courtesy, road sense, whatever, it's all subjective.
> 
> Oh, and that the world is apparently made up of LyB and the remaining 6.99 billion of us are muppets!




I'm glad you see it my way!


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## snailracer (2 Nov 2011)

Bicycle said:


> ...
> Sometimes I'm surprised by how little aggression I attract on the highway. Sometimes I'm not surprised at all.


Next you'll be claiming you attract less incompetence.


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## calibanzwei (2 Nov 2011)

Rob500 said:


> The flashing of lights actually means nothing.



A non-driver here, but I understand that within the highway code the flashing of lights is a warning not a courtesy 'come on then'? 
In slow moving traffic I've slowed to allow a car to come from the left, only to have some dick driver behind gun his engine and pass - I'll take that as me as riding too close to the kerb and giving them the room


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## John the Monkey (2 Nov 2011)

benb said:


> The worst ones are the ones that can only get half way out so completely block your path.



Also known as the "Rusholme Turn". A frequent occurrence on Wilmslow Road, ime.


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## Chris S (2 Nov 2011)

In this case, yes. 



User said:


> RE: Having right of way is no good if you end up dead or injured. Give way unless it's safe not to do so.
> 
> So give in to bullying behaviour you mean?


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## Arrowfoot (3 Nov 2011)

The issue is not right of way. The right of way by law favours both the cyclist and any other car in other lanes that are not blocked. It more an issue of courtesy as the poor chap might be stuck in sideline in slow moving traffic. 
Motorists in other lanes will slow down when a car in a lane closests to the curb stops in slow moving traffic and as most anticipate that it is courtesy leeway that is being offered for those stuck in side lanes. I am sure most cyclist do that as well.


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## benb (3 Nov 2011)

Arrowfoot said:


> The issue is not right of way. The right of way by law favours both the cyclist and any other car in other lanes that are not blocked. It more an issue of courtesy as the poor chap might be stuck in sideline in slow moving traffic.
> Motorists in other lanes will slow down when a car in a lane closests to the curb stops in slow moving traffic and as most anticipate that it is courtesy leeway that is being offered for those stuck in side lanes. I am sure most cyclist do that as well.



I think most people would agree that it's courteous to let people out, but it's not always safe or practical to do so, and the driver joining certainly shouldn't assume that everyone is letting them out just because one person has flashed them. What annoys me is drivers that either don't see me at all, or just force themselves out anyway.

If I am far enough away that I won't need to slam on my brakes, and it is safe for me to do so, I'll always let cars out into slow traffic. I normally won't do it in medium or fast moving traffic, as by the time I've checked behind me to see if there's room, I'll already be past the junction.


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## John the Monkey (3 Nov 2011)

Arrowfoot said:


> ...an issue of courtesy as the poor chap might be stuck in sideline in slow moving traffic.



The bike isn't "slow moving traffic". The bike can generally make headway quite nicely, as its rider hasn't chosen to join the popular Critical Mass style choking of the roads that drivers participate in in most cities during rush hour(s).

I leave plenty of time for my journey, am a nice bloke, and don't filter quickly, so I tend to let people in, if its safe. Sometimes I don't if I'm making good time, or have a cyclist whose behaviour I can't predict following close behind.

Note also, as the Highway Code says, that if ceding priority can help to avoid an accident, you should do so.


> Motorists in other lanes will slow down when a car in a lane closests to the curb stops in slow moving traffic and as most anticipate that it is courtesy leeway that is being offered for those stuck in side lanes. I am sure most cyclist do that as well.



Depends. In situations where one lane is slow, and one fast (some filter lanes, for example) drivers in the moving lane seem entirely happy to ignore their suffering compatriots trying to join their lane. I see this frequently in some parts of Manchester and Crewe. Letting people in is more common where a single lane moves slowly, or all lanes move slowly.


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## subaqua (3 Nov 2011)

Mad@urage said:


> So, you are pulling out in front of me as I cycle along the main road (Whether a car has flashed its headlights at you means precisely nothing)?
> I'll cover the brakes and ride around you. If you have to stop half-way through a manoevre you shouldn't have started, that's tough on you.




this


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## Wankelschrauben (3 Nov 2011)

I despise the attitude that some "safe and sensible" drivers have in these situations.

There is nothing safe about slowing and flashing, it is unexpected and therfore dangerous.

It should be taught to all drivers that people behind can not see a flash of the lights, that people behind can not see the car in the side junction and that people behind are not expecting the change of speed without prior warning.

Being stationery in traffic and allowing someone to move in, or even filtering from side lanes at minor speeds where no unexpected change of speed to those behind is required, that's different, that is to be expected.

The toss pots who slam on their brakes to allow every Tom, Dick and Harry out at every junction they pass, they're dangerous and should be removed from the road.

It is expected for drivers to expect to wait and pull out when clear to do so.


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## Dan_h (3 Nov 2011)

Mad@urage said:


> So, you are pulling out in front of me as I cycle along the main road (Whether a car has flashed its headlights at you means precisely nothing)?
> I'll cover the brakes and ride around you. *If you have to stop half-way through a manoevre you shouldn't have started, that's tough on you.*



The only problem I can see with this approach is that you may assume the driver has got to stop, but what if they don't? What if they genuinely have not seen you or just don't care that you are there? What if their attitude is "At some point if I keep going then the cyclist will have to stop" ?

I know it says that you would cover the brakes, but there is a point where if you have not used them then it is too late. I personally think that it may be better to slow down or even stop and let the car out then end up either having a shouting match with the driver or worse ending up laying in the road. Even if "right" is on our side it does not always help.


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## Inertia (3 Nov 2011)

Wankelschrauben said:


> I despise the attitude that some "safe and sensible" drivers have in these situations.
> 
> There is nothing safe about slowing and flashing, it is unexpected and therfore dangerous.



+1 This is one reason why moving out into the middle lane is a good thing, it keeps the traffic flowing.




Wankelschrauben said:


> It should be taught to all drivers that people behind can not see a flash of the lights, that people behind can not see the car in the side junction and that people behind are not expecting the change of speed without prior warning.



We should invent some way for the people behind to know the car in front is slowing..we could call them brake lights 

I do agree though, if it will cause you to have to slow down abruptly you shouldn't do it, the person waiting will have to wait. To quote someone else 

_"Always keep a good distance between you and the vehicle in front, at least a two second gap on a dry day. If you see brake lights ahead then ease off the accelerator. Sudden braking on a motorway can be dangerous. It can cause vehicles behind to also slam on the brakes. This causes tailbacks and even collisions."_


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## Bicycle (3 Nov 2011)

Wankelschrauben said:


> I despise the attitude that some "safe and sensible" drivers have in these situations.
> 
> There is nothing safe about slowing and flashing, it is unexpected and therfore dangerous.
> 
> ...




In the situation described by the OP, taffic was at crawling pace.

I think that's the situation most of us are discussing.

If there's a turning on the left and cars are waiting to emerge from it, this will be obvious to everyone on the road in slow-moving traffic. There is therefore nothing unexpected about someone making space for one of those cars.

I have never (in 40 years on a bicycle) seen a car flash and brake heavily from speed to allow someone in from a side road. I agree with you that it would be a barmy thing to do, but I've never seen it or heard of it.

The driver allowing traffic in should be aware of what is behind and beside him. When there are bicycles and motorcycles around it may be best to roll right across the junction.


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## Arrowfoot (3 Nov 2011)

I do agree. It's a practice that is fraught with danger if not applied well. Drivers coming out of side lanes sometimes assume that they have the right, do not check and go straight ahead. 


benb said:


> I think most people would agree that it's courteous to let people out, but it's not always safe or practical to do so, and the driver joining certainly shouldn't assume that everyone is letting them out just because one person has flashed them. What annoys me is drivers that either don't see me at all, or just force themselves out anyway.
> 
> If I am far enough away that I won't need to slam on my brakes, and it is safe for me to do so, I'll always let cars out into slow traffic. I normally won't do it in medium or fast moving traffic, as by the time I've checked behind me to see if there's room, I'll already be past the junction.


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## Arrowfoot (3 Nov 2011)

Safety and preservation comes first. The moment I see the car next to me slow down or stop, I am on my guard and ready to stop even when I see that its clear ahead. Not worth even thinking about right of way. As the eye contact naturally occurs between the driver of the car stopping and the driver of the car in the side lane, attention is further compromised by the wave of thanks. Too many ifs and buts to hold on to the line of right of way.


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## Mad at urage (3 Nov 2011)

Dan_h said:


> The only problem I can see with this approach is that you may assume the driver has got to stop, but what if they don't? What if they genuinely have not seen you or just don't care that you are there? What if their attitude is "At some point if I keep going then the cyclist will have to stop" ?
> 
> I know it says that you would cover the brakes, but there is a point where if you have not used them then it is too late. I personally think that it may be better to slow down or even stop and let the car out then end up either having a shouting match with the driver or worse ending up laying in the road. Even if "right" is on our side it does not always help.


I'd be covering the brakes and filtering at an appropriate speed. I certainly am not going to stop 'in case' someone pulls out, but I'll be traveling at a speed where (if he does ignore the fact that I have priority and still pulls in front of me) I will remain safe (and the damage to his car is likely to be more than the damage to me and the 'bike*).

As I also said, I'm unlikely to be filtering down the nearside by the kerb anyway.

*Commuting bike, dates back to '80s London ...very tough, very useful.


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## John the Monkey (3 Nov 2011)

Does this decency among motorists (letting each other out of side roads out of the goodness of their hearts, and all) count for allowing right indicating busses out of stops too, btw? 

Precious few of the drivers along Wilmslow Road could be bothered with such niceties in the 10mph crawl out of Manchester City centre this evening. In general, the bus would force it's way in, or I'd stop (in primary) to allow them out.


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## Hip Priest (3 Nov 2011)

I always let buses out when driving, providing it is safe to do so.


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## John the Monkey (3 Nov 2011)

Hip Priest said:


> I always let buses out when driving, providing it is safe to do so.



Likewise, when driving or cycling (I freely admit that self preservation plays a role in the latter - Finglands, in particular, I want ahead of me. A long way ahead of me).


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## Wankelschrauben (4 Nov 2011)

John the Monkey said:


> Does this decency among motorists (letting each other out of side roads out of the goodness of their hearts, and all) count for allowing right indicating busses out of stops too, btw?



You don't want to get stuck behind one of those bloody things.... 

Depends on the situation, if you're already in a position to move past and it would be dangerous to stop, or are already moving past, then you overtake. If the bus is indicating out of the stop as you approach then the law dictates you let it out.

Bus drivers that pull away whilst still indicating left, then force other drivers out of the lane are complete tools, so much so that I will not overtake a bus at a stop whilst on my bike anymore.


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