# Recumbent Itch



## Sailorsi (10 Sep 2015)

Hello! Recumbent newbie in need of direction.
I have a recumbent itch that I'm in the midst of wanting to scratch but having tried half a dozen bikes and liked them all for different reasons. I guess my idea of a do it all bike was never going to be a true reality. I have test ridden (short up and down ride only) the following bikes, no mean feat in the UK, and must thank the individuals involved for their help and advice. My original plan was for a fast high racer that would keep up with a D/F bike but having ridden a few, I don't think I care as much about keeping up as I thought! It's a real joy to be out on a bike with a view in real comfort. That said I'm sure competitiveness would kick in when I get passed for the first time and I would struggle to let it go! 
I guess I'm after a day ride bike that's quick and fun and can handle the odd hill. Sportive type rides as oppose to Audax as I never seem to get the time for long distance travel.
I understand it's a pure personal choice, and a bike which suits one person may not be right for another, that said I would be interested in any positive or negative views of the bikes or other choices that I may wish to consider, from the vast experience on this forum. I have a short ish 40" X-seam but managed on these without too much of an issue. I will be sure to spend more time testing before jumping in which I think is the key. Thank you in advance!
I did get quoted that my 1st recumbent will not be my last and no matter how much I try to find the ideal bike I will end up with another! I guess N+1 always applies  

Bacchetta Giro 26 ATT - Great for ground contact, handled well, loved the discs
Challenge Fugin SL - Struggled as this was my 1st go on a tiller but liked the ground contact
Nazca Goucho - Probably in my top 3, air shock made a huge difference and wasn't bouncy at all. Good ground contact, quick but maybe not an all out race machine.
HP Street machine - Comfort tourer, handled great but felt the weight a bit.
Metabike - the version I tried was the tiller type and it felt a little twitchy but after 15mins I got used to it. I quick bike, slightly higher than the goucho but not too bad.
Schlitter Encore - Probably No1 - Handled great although, very quick and extremely light, on my limit of ground contact, made to measure, allows you to select components.


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## andytheflyer (10 Sep 2015)

I'm green with envy at your being able to try all those! I have the Performer Amigo (actually a TW 2006 model) - no longer made but there are similar (non-supension) versions badged as the TW which come up on Ebay. I think Laid Back Bikes may now be the UK agent for Performer - but they can be personally imported too. 






Mine's a bit slower than I would like, but have done a 100k audax on it and it is very comfortable. I fancy a 26" wheel bike, but I have short legs and restricted mobility and getting my leg over a seat any higher than about 525mm whilst wobbling on the other leg will be tricky. The suspension is nice as lying back over our potholes gives me a real jar, and a bike without suspension may be too much. The 20" front wheel restricts tyre choice - there are no (that I can find) skinny tyres that resist my local hawthorns (such as Gatorskins) to fit that wheel - so I use Marathons and I suspect that makes the bike a bit slower than I'd like. But I don't get (m)any punctures - in case the PF is listening.

I think you end up with a compromise. The rear suspension is nice because it absorbs the potholes (but maybe mine is set a bit too hard at the moment - must have a play). I don't notice the bounce when pedaling. Your X-seam is 3" less than mine, and I have the boom set right in - indeed have taken 10mm off it to get the BB a bit closer - could do with another 10-20mm off really as the boom is fully in - but don't want to compromise re-sale.

Glad to hear that the Bachetta ground contact was good - so the seat height with the 26" wheels was OK.

My suspicion is that to get high average speeds you need 26" or 700c wheels with 25c tyres (or similar) and no suspension. That gives you a higher seat height - which may be a problem if you are short legged (even shorter than me - my trousers are the shortest leg length that M&S list!). Hill climbing is all about gears and fitness - you can go very low with a triple and a 12-36 cassette - but it will still feel slow and hard work up hill - but you have to remember that you can make some of that up downhill and on the flat. I bottom out at about 3mph uphill on the recumbent compared to 4-5mph on my DF Defy road bike. Crank length also seems to be a variable to explore - there are those that say a std 170mm crank is too long on a recumbent, but that means you need to drop the gearing a bit too.

I fancy the Fujin, but not sure it will be very much quicker than my Performer . But I still fancy one...... 

@arallsopp is probably amongst the best sources of advice - no doubt he'll be along soon.


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## Simpleton (10 Sep 2015)

If you are after a quick bike for day rides that can handle hills, runs 700cc wheels (always a bonus) then I'd go with a front wheel drive system.
http://cruzbike.com
Winner of multiple records, the quickest recumbent out there imo.


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## Sailorsi (10 Sep 2015)

I nearly got the opportunity to try the performer but unfortunately ran out of time, the fugin for me was a little unstable but I think that was a practise issue being the 1st tiller bike I tried. My bike tests have been over the last 3 months, trying hard not to rush into a purchase despite the itch getting stronger! I had to use crank shortners on all of the bikes at around 155mm to prevent hard contact of pedals on the front wheel so would need shorter than standard supplied cranks. I found on the Encore (not that it was made for my size), I had to arch my back to place a foot firmly on the ground or sit up, where as the Goucho that I really liked, I could just place a foot down whilst laid back. The Bacchetta was fine on 26" wheels (they can still take a 28C tyre fine), I think the 700c wheels on a giro may have been too much. I suppose its worth considering how much stop start I will encounter in my planned use. Thanks for the post @andytheflyer I thought trying more bikes would help me decide but I didn't count on liking them all! It would be nice to have a selection of used bikes but they don't come up too often.


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## Sailorsi (10 Sep 2015)

I will have a look at the cruzbikes thanks for the pointer @Simpleton !


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## andytheflyer (10 Sep 2015)

Sailorsi said:


> I nearly got the opportunity to try the performer but unfortunately ran out of time, the fugin for me was a little unstable but I think that was a practise issue being the 1st tiller bike I tried. My bike tests have been over the last 3 months, trying hard not to rush into a purchase despite the itch getting stronger! I had to use crank shortners on all of the bikes at around 155mm to prevent hard contact of pedals on the front wheel so would need shorter than standard supplied cranks. I found on the Encore (not that it was made for my size), I had to arch my back to place a foot firmly on the ground or sit up, where as the Goucho that I really liked, I could just place a foot down whilst laid back. The Bacchetta was fine on 26" wheels (they can still take a 28C tyre fine), I think the 700c wheels on a giro may have been too much. I suppose its worth considering how much stop start I will encounter in my planned use. Thanks for the post @andytheflyer I thought trying more bikes would help me decide but I didn't count on liking them all! It would be nice to have a selection of used bikes but they don't come up too often.



You won't need the Sudocrem on a recumbent though! Unless you want to fend off the itch a bit longer.......


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## Tigerbiten (12 Sep 2015)

If you want to try out a range of recumbent bikes, try contacting Kevin at D-Tek. Link -> http://www.littlethetford.org/?page_id=529
He's based out of Little Thetford near Ely and I gather he has the biggest range of second hand bikes to try of anyone in this country.


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## ufkacbln (12 Sep 2015)

A mere amateur

Hasn't even scratched the surface of long wheelbase, tadpole trikes, delta trikes and the rest

Bad news is that each has its pros and cons and there is no ideal

I run a Challenge Hurricane, Street Machine, Catrike Expedition, Gekko and a Kettwiesel, yet there are still gaps in the stable


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## Sailorsi (12 Sep 2015)

Tigerbiten said:


> If you want to try out a range of recumbent bikes, try contacting Kevin at D-Tek. Link -> http://www.littlethetford.org/?page_id=529
> He's based out of Little Thetford near Ely and I gather he has the biggest range of second hand bikes to try of anyone in this country.



Thanks for the advice, not heard of little Thetford, deffinately worth a look.


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## Sailorsi (12 Sep 2015)

Cunobelin said:


> A mere amateur
> 
> Hasn't even scratched the surface of long wheelbase, tadpole trikes, delta trikes and the rest
> 
> ...



I think I was too hopful in looking for a one bike do it all. Just dont want to rush into the 1st one without trying lots out. I think the Encore is at the top of my lust so far, also liked the Gaucho


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## ufkacbln (12 Sep 2015)

You haven't tried stable and fast until you have ridden a Catrike 700 or ICE Vortex


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## Sailorsi (13 Sep 2015)

Cunobelin said:


> You haven't tried stable and fast until you have ridden a Catrike 700 or ICE Vortex




I will have to stop you in town one day and pester you for a look at your trikes! I do spot you on occasions heading past the creek. Hadn't really considered a trike, I think I would fall asleep they look so comfortable!


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## ufkacbln (13 Sep 2015)

Sailorsi said:


> I will have to stop you in town one day and pester you for a look at your trikes! I do spot you on occasions heading past the creek. Hadn't really considered a trike, I think I would fall asleep they look so comfortable!



Please do!


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## ufkacbln (13 Sep 2015)

Tomorrow I will be mostly riding....

The Gekko


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## arallsopp (15 Sep 2015)

andytheflyer said:


> My suspicion is that to get high average speeds you need 26" or 700c wheels with 25c tyres (or similar) and no suspension



I'm not sure I agree, to be honest. My issue on longer rides has been that fast 'on-the-track' does not always convert to fast 'on-the-road'. For out and out speed, yes, a 700c rigid frame and/or low racer is the way to go*, but I'm finding prolonged on the road speed is a combination of confidence, comfort, vision, stability and predictability.

This might be rather good news for the OP, I feel. For example, yes, my encore (rigid 700c, extremely nice) is fast out of the gate. And were I a better rider, it'd still be fast 200 miles later. But as its rider I am limited by the lights I've put on her (battery powered), my attitude to her (she's far too pretty to get rained on), her rigidity (chipseal buzz fatigues me) and a general unfamiliarity (been a tough year to get out). 

Compare this with my time on the 24" rear suspended Furai. The Furai is heavier, runs similarly skinny tyres at the same pressure (duranos), has a hub dynamo wired to front and rear, a large seatpack, etc. For a 200 mile ride, the lights will get me home at full beam, she's got proven reliability (well, now that we've got through a few cable tie related teething troubles), her suspension will soak up the worst of the road, and she's hugely sure footed. That seat pack will take lunch and a couple of drinks, as well as any tools I'm going to need. She's not as fast as the encore, but for the moment she'll take me further.

Now compare that with the classic 20/26 dual suspended Streetmachine. The SMGTe is heavier again (much heavier), runs wide tyres (marathons), has a hub dynamo, panniers, mudguards, etc. She's definitely not fast compared to the Furai, but she'll still keep up with most uprights (which considering how little I ride these days is proof that it is all about the bike). She gives me more miles than either of the others just because she's supremely robust. 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that 'fast' needs the following:

- a bike you can trust.
- a bike you want to ride.
- a bike that is comfortable / practical enough to let you get the training miles in.

For me, that has meant the Furai is my real world fastest bike. Ground is nice and close, but high enough to feel visible. Gearing on a 24" wheel (triple on the front, 11-36 on the back) is low enough to climb anything I've thrown her at, and high enough to touch 50mph chasing @ianrauk into Devils Dyke. She was my commuter for years which meant the muscle memory was already there when @martint235 had an idea about riding to Wootton Bassett. Dual 24" meant I could head out for multi-day rides with a single spare tube, and the possibilities this opens up have given me plenty of opportunities to really test myself.

Am I faster on the encore? Yes. Might I become faster still when I finally get the time to take her out properly? Yes. Is the encore my fastest two wheeler? Yes. Is it the bike I'm fastest on? Not yet...

Oh, and regards tiller steering: I can't do it at all. Despite going through an SMGTe, Furai, Seiran, and a velomobile in 7 years, I'd not actually managed to control any overseat steered bike more than 2 pedal strokes until I acquired the Nazca Quetzal at the end of 2013. That only came with OSS, so rather forced my hand. I'm getting more accustomed to the feel now, and the encore represents my continued development in the field. 

Every bike I've mentioned has disc brakes because, for me at least, how fast you can go is directly proportional to your confidence that you can stop.

Does that help at all?

* ok, so my actual fastest 'bent has dual 20" and a 26" at the back, but that is cheating.


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## StuAff (16 Sep 2015)

arallsopp said:


> * ok, so my actual fastest 'bent has dual 20" and a 26" at the back, but that is cheating.


I think it's the massive reduction in aerodynamic drag that does it


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## StuAff (16 Sep 2015)

arallsopp said:


> I guess what I'm trying to say is that 'fast' needs the following:
> 
> - a bike you can trust.
> - a bike you want to ride.
> - a bike that is comfortable / practical enough to let you get the training miles in.


Damn right. Though none of mine apply to this discussion (being upwrong) they are all of the above.


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## PaulM (16 Sep 2015)

Saliorsi, I've sent you a message (started a conversation) re my Metabikes which I might consider selling. Paul


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## Sailorsi (16 Sep 2015)

arallsopp said:


> I'm not sure I agree, to be honest. My issue on longer rides has been that fast 'on-the-track' does not always convert to fast 'on-the-road'. For out and out speed, yes, a 700c rigid frame and/or low racer is the way to go*, but I'm finding prolonged on the road speed is a combination of confidence, comfort, vision, stability and predictability.
> 
> This might be rather good news for the OP, I feel. For example, yes, my encore (rigid 700c, extremely nice) is fast out of the gate. And were I a better rider, it'd still be fast 200 miles later. But as its rider I am limited by the lights I've put on her (battery powered), my attitude to her (she's far too pretty to get rained on), her rigidity (chipseal buzz fatigues me) and a general unfamiliarity (been a tough year to get out).
> 
> ...



Really useful info, many thanks.


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## Sailorsi (17 Sep 2015)

Thanks for all of the advice guy's really appreciated and keep it coming. I will keep looking asking and testing until I find what I'm looking for! I can't wait to meet up with a few fellow recumbent riders when I get on the road. I'm sure whatever I end up with will make me smile and there is always the N+1 option.....( If only I had the funds to support it!)


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## cyberknight (18 Sep 2015)

I thought this was a thread about rubbing shorts .


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## Andrew1971 (18 Sep 2015)

It depends on where its rubbing


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## Sailorsi (19 Sep 2015)

arallsopp said:


> I'm not sure I agree, to be honest. My issue on longer rides has been that fast 'on-the-track' does not always convert to fast 'on-the-road'. For out and out speed, yes, a 700c rigid frame and/or low racer is the way to go*, but I'm finding prolonged on the road speed is a combination of confidence, comfort, vision, stability and predictability.
> 
> This might be rather good news for the OP, I feel. For example, yes, my encore (rigid 700c, extremely nice) is fast out of the gate. And were I a better rider, it'd still be fast 200 miles later. But as its rider I am limited by the lights I've put on her (battery powered), my attitude to her (she's far too pretty to get rained on), her rigidity (chipseal buzz fatigues me) and a general unfamiliarity (been a tough year to get out).
> 
> ...



You made some fantastic points which kind of back up my feeling that a do it all bike does not exist. If I went for an Encore would I put a dynamo hub, mud guards and luggage on her and ride it through the winter? Probably not. However for fast 5-8 hour day rides it would be fantastic. I need to decide if I'm initially looking for a slightly slower but capable commuter and overnighter or a fast fun weekend day ride bike. I guess I need two  Thanks for the info, I really enjoyed your book BTW - inspirational!


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## arallsopp (19 Sep 2015)

Thanks 

It's part of bike ownership's rich irony, I suppose. It is possible to get a "go anywhere, do everything" bike, but the associated costs and time required to curate such a steed mean there are places you won't take or ride it. 

If I were restricted to a single bike (and I say that in the safety of this remaining purely hypothetical) I'd probably still go for the encore. I'd rack it up with panniers , pair it with 36 spoke 26" rubber, a wide range cassette and (this is allowed, right?) have a second wheel set on hand for the low spoke count aero 700 tight geared stuff. 

Of course, best place to keep that spare 700c wheel set would be on another bike.. Maybe a Seiran. I mean, just to keep it out of the way, like... And to really make sure the panniers don't form a trip hazard when the encore is stripped down for racing, perhaps a Streetmachine too.. And... Well.. You can see where I'm going


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## Sailorsi (20 Sep 2015)

arallsopp said:


> Thanks
> 
> It's part of bike ownership's rich irony, I suppose. It is possible to get a "go anywhere, do everything" bike, but the associated costs and time required to curate such a steed mean there are places you won't take or ride it.
> 
> ...



I guess what you are saying is that N+1 is the best option I best get working some overtime! Thanks for your comments, they have been really helpful.


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## ufkacbln (20 Sep 2015)

Just being pedantic..... is a new trike N+1.5 due to the extra wheel?


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## Sailorsi (20 Sep 2015)

One thing is for certain - Recumbent riders are a friendly and trusting bunch. In my search for the right bike I have been trusted by shops and people I have not met before to test ride their bikes and just as important to me, pass on their recumbent experiences. Last week I met up with a fellow rider for a short ride, chat about his bikes and experiences followed by cake and coffee, Last night I was invited by a complete stranger to chat about bents and have a go on his very fine Metabike and RANs Stratus. My faith in humanity restored. Thank you


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## andytheflyer (20 Sep 2015)

arallsopp said:


> I'm not sure I agree, to be honest. My issue on longer rides has been that fast 'on-the-track' does not always convert to fast 'on-the-road'. For out and out speed, yes, a 700c rigid frame and/or low racer is the way to go*, but I'm finding prolonged on the road speed is a combination of confidence, comfort, vision, stability and predictability.



I've been thinking about your hypothesis re: speed and overall time, but not come to a conclusion, but....got the answer today. Did the Lincolnshire Wolds Audax (on my Defy because I wasn't sure I'd get up some of the steeper bits on my Performer - need not have worried as it turns out). Went off the line with a guy on a newish 700c Performer SWB. Good job we'd finished chatting when waved off because never saw him again....... Within 10 minutes he was at least a mile ahead. He was fast! Asked if he'd been seen at the second control at 45 miles in, he was long, long gone. Pity as the seat height looked similar to mine which means I might be able to ride a 700c - I was keen to throw a leg over it at the finish, if you see what I mean.


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