# Ban Surface dressing of roads, sign the Petition



## tincaman (15 Aug 2014)

Ban Surface dressing of roads, link to HMGovernment petition page


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## MrWill (15 Aug 2014)

They have just done about half the roads within 20 miles of me like this. Nightmare. My cars got loads of little nicks and new bike tyres are not far from ruined after a few weeks.


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## ianrauk (15 Aug 2014)

Signed.
I hate that stuff.. it's downright dangerous.


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## winjim (15 Aug 2014)

I think maybe "encourage other methods of road maintenance" might be better than "ban". There has to be a credible alternative proposed.

Petition could also do with tidying up for grammar and the statements in it could do with backing up. It reads like someone's got a chip* on their shoulder.


*See what I did there?


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## _aD (15 Aug 2014)

Once councils get enough money from the government to repair and upkeep the roads, then I will agree with the sentiment, but my understanding is that funds for roads are well below what each council needs so they have to make do. I don't like surface dressing either, but it does eventually bed down and with a finite amount of cash, councils often do the best they can.


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## Wafer (15 Aug 2014)

Yeah, it's either surface dressing in a lot of areas or nothing, the costs of proper resurfacing are a hell of a lot higher. You'd get people moaning about roadworks more as well!


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## EltonFrog (15 Aug 2014)

Done


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## Bobby Mhor (15 Aug 2014)

Done...
Shredded a back tyre recently on a newly done back road...
Roads here are being slowly repaired more dependant on post code than state of road... 
Our council roads dept. admit they haven't a clue what they have done and still need to do....


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## youngoldbloke (15 Aug 2014)

Done - it is a complete waste of money, roads are bald and in a worse state within a year or so. All too often the roads are top dressed without any remedial work being done first = holes full of chippings. The passage of traffic is supposed to help bed-in the chippings but on single lane roads it simply results in drifts of loose chipping in the middle, and in the gutters. I loath the stuff. It makes local lanes impassable for weeks


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## jack smith (15 Aug 2014)

Chipped my s works frame twice within its first day of riding on teh horrible stuff they also did all the roads at the same time, 3 tyres ruined, no pavements or anything to bypass it all i couod do wqs slow to a snails pace


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## mcshroom (15 Aug 2014)

_aD said:


> Once councils get enough money from the government to repair and upkeep the roads, then I will agree with the sentiment, but my understanding is that funds for roads are well below what each council needs so they have to make do. I don't like surface dressing either, but it does eventually bed down and with a finite amount of cash, councils often do the best they can.


When? I'm still waiting for the mounds of stones to disappear from a set of roads they dressed round here in 2012


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## ColinJ (15 Aug 2014)

The council here waited for the TdF peloton to have passed through before surface dressing the A646 between Hebden Bridge and Mytholmroyd. The road surface was pretty nasty for a few days. The improvement after that was so sudden that I think they must have swept the road. What they didn't sweep was the strip of road inside the solid white line towards here. I use that as an informal cycle path because cars keep outside it and I can often go faster than them in relative safety.


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## raleighnut (16 Aug 2014)

Why don't they run a road roller over it afterwards, surely that would help bed in the new stone. Its almost like they've done half the job.


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## Garethgas (16 Aug 2014)

The site tells me that it may take up to 4 hrs to send me an email link,
Jeez!


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## Shut Up Legs (16 Aug 2014)

I would have signed, but they only allow UK citizens to sign it. Good luck with the petition, people .


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## geocycle (16 Aug 2014)

Just come back from France and Spain, why can't we have road surfaces like they do? Wonderful silky smooth Tarmac. I was in the mountains so it's not just weather. They also don't seem to be so patched up, if it needs repair they shut the road and do the lot.


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## dickyknees (16 Aug 2014)

Done


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## marknotgeorge (17 Aug 2014)

Signed. Wish they'd sort the roads round here properly. Kedleston Road is truly awful.


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## numbnuts (17 Aug 2014)

If you get it banned it would be a cop-out for the councils to do sod all


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## marknotgeorge (17 Aug 2014)

numbnuts said:


> If you get it banned it would be a cop-out for the councils to do sod all


Like what they do already? Kedleston Road hasn't even been tarred and chipped for donkeys' years.


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## GrasB (17 Aug 2014)

numbnuts said:


> If you get it banned it would be a cop-out for the councils to do sod all


In all honesty that's a better option. I know of several locations which have been surface dressed many times. The result is that suddenly huge chunks of surface detach and move about in the hole. At least with a proper pothole you can actually see the fact the surface is degraded.

I'd also mention that I ended up drifting my bike round a recently dressed corner at about 10mph, I put my front wheel on the very narrow line of cleared line but this just caused the rear wheel to roll through the uncleared stones Next thing I know is I've got opposite lock on and I'm using the front brake to keep me upright! The rider behind me didn't have good bike handling skills and went in faster so hit the deck quite hard.


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## Soltydog (17 Aug 2014)

Signed & shared so hopefully get a few more sigs


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## montage (18 Aug 2014)

_aD said:


> Once councils get enough money from the government to repair and upkeep the roads, then I will agree with the sentiment, but my understanding is that funds for roads are well below what each council needs so they have to make do. I don't like surface dressing either, but it does eventually bed down and with a finite amount of cash, councils often do the best they can.



You tend to see a spike in surface dressing towards the review of the budget. Council budgets tend to work on a use it or lose it philosophy - so if they don't use their road maintenance budget up, they get a reduced budget next year. Councils' solution - spend the budget on surface dressing as a quick fix. Hence why you see perfectly good quality roads being resurfaced - nobody has inspected them, it's just office politics. There would be enough money if you removed the mismanagement


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## Wafer (18 Aug 2014)

Not sure I quite believe that.... Surface dressing (and resurfacing) tends to happen in the summer when the weather should be better. I certainly don't think it is used as a way of spending money that they can't otherwise find a home for, road maintenance budgets are tight enough as it is without having surplus.

If places aren't being inspected properly before surface dressing it's probably got more to do with lack of staff to do them.

One of the most common reasons people contact the County Council here is about 'problems on the highway', it might be that people have complained about an area and, whether you agree with it or not, they might be surface dressing to address some complaints/comments.

That's certainly my experience round here, other local authorities may differ I guess.


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## snorri (18 Aug 2014)

I've started a petition to increase Road Tax in order to raise sufficient funds to improve the roads.


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## Bollo (18 Aug 2014)

snorri said:


> I've started a petition to increase Road Tax in order to raise sufficient funds to improve the roads.


You scamp!


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## Bollo (18 Aug 2014)

Not a huge believer in petitions, but I hate surface dressing more. Signed.


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## John the Monkey (18 Aug 2014)

raleighnut said:


> Why don't they run a road roller over it afterwards, surely that would help bed in the new stone. Its almost like they've done half the job.


Mostly because the action of traffic, properly managed, does the job of rolling.

A lot of the problems in the UK stem from improper application, failure of traffic to obey the posted limits, and lack of aftercare. Cheshire East, to their credit, at least swept the carriageway done recently near me. 

Traffic routinely ignored the 20mph limit though, so this application will be knackered in no time at all (and the drivers will moan about how the council wasted money on it, and it chipped their cars, and blah blah).

This article was a bit of an eye opener for me; http://www.highwaysmaintenance.com/SDtext.htm


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## youngoldbloke (18 Aug 2014)

Yes, I've read that too. I think a major problem _is_ improper application, and a failure to follow through with sweeping surplus grit, especially a problem on single track roads where the action of traffic will never work in compacting the surface, the result being drifts of chippings, in the centre and sides of the road. Recently a lot of this stuff has ended up deposited across roads on bends at the bottom of hilly stretches, washed down by the torrential rain showers we've had - extremely dangerous if you are on two wheels.


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## Leaway2 (19 Aug 2014)

Done. The road on the commute lasted less than 6 months. Then it was bald in the car tracks, with mounds at the edges.


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## John the Monkey (19 Aug 2014)

youngoldbloke said:


> Yes, I've read that too. I think a major problem _is_ improper application, and a failure to follow through with sweeping surplus grit, especially a problem on single track roads where the action of traffic will never work in compacting the surface, the result being drifts of chippings, in the centre and sides of the road. Recently a lot of this stuff has ended up deposited across roads on bends at the bottom of hilly stretches, washed down by the torrential rain showers we've had - extremely dangerous if you are on two wheels.


Definitely! But I can think of two recently done stretches locally that the treatment was ideal for too - allowing the road to be opened sooner, and surfaced at lower cost. The council even did their bit by sweeping after application. Drivers were nowhere near the 20mph limit though, so I have my doubts about its longevity.

The problem I have with the petition, and its call for a total ban is that it fundamentally misunderstands the process, and its effect on vehicles. (For the petitioner, vehicles don't get damaged if you don't ignore the temporary limits). 

Surface dressing isn't suitable everywhere, and has to be done properly, but that applies to pretty much every other surfacing methodology too.


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## youngoldbloke (19 Aug 2014)

Agree it is not a perfectly worded petition, but I signed it out of frustration. I can't think of any top dressed road around my way which has become more pleasant to ride on after treatment. There are a number of long stretches which were a joy for 12 - 18 months after resurfacing, and then the dreaded yellow codes appeared sprayed on the road heralding imminent surface dressing, and unpleasant riding over the months and years to come. It may 'improve' roads for motor vehicles - surface texture, skid resistance etc etc, but NOT for cycling


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## I like Skol (19 Aug 2014)

GrasB said:


> I'd also mention that I ended up drifting my bike round a* recently dressed corner* at about 10mph, I put my front wheel on the very narrow line of cleared line but this just caused the rear wheel to roll through the uncleared stones Next thing I know is I've got opposite lock on and I'm using the front brake to keep me upright! The rider behind me didn't have good bike handling skills and went in faster so hit the deck quite hard.


Isn't there an element of responsibility on the road user to cycle/drive at an appropriate speed for the conditions? I'm not saying I like the surface dressing method but to be fair, it is more inconvenient rather than dangerous if you pay attention and watch where you are going. The situation above is more of an admission of poor observation and lack of anticipation rather than an inherent fault with the process. the recent application should have been clear to see and gives enough time to slow down to a suitable speed where the surface condition can be assessed and an appropriate line chosen?


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## John the Monkey (19 Aug 2014)

I like Skol said:


> Isn't there an element of responsibility on the road user to cycle/drive at an appropriate speed for the conditions? I'm not saying I like the surface dressing method but to be fair, it is more inconvenient rather than dangerous if you pay attention and watch where you are going.


I can think of a couple of roads with severe camber in Cheshire where the drifted chippings aren't noticeable unless you *really* know the road well (they look like the normal surface until they "grab" your wheel. Ironically, they're part of NCN/RCN routes, so fairly likely to be chosen as "safe" routes by people who don't know the area.

@youngoldbloke - the Crewe Green end of Crewe Road was dressed fairly recently, and is actually pretty good now, despite the best efforts of local drivers. Similarly Wilmslow Road between Heald Green and Handforth (done 6 months + ago) isn't bad. I could do without the couple of weeks with drifts of chippings, and the damned things being thrown into you by drivers doing 40mph on the newly dressed bits, but the surfaces aren't bad now. (They're wide roads without severe camber, with heavy traffic).


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## buggi (19 Aug 2014)

Done. Saw a really bad car accident about a month ago on the roads near my work bcoz they did this at the top of a hill on a corner on a national speed limit road. The skid risk sign was right on top of it so no time for the driver to react. So its not just us it affects. And besides anything else, it discourages people getting on bikes when the government is supposed to be encouraging it!


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## marknotgeorge (19 Aug 2014)

John the Monkey said:


> Mostly because the action of traffic, properly managed, does the job of rolling.
> 
> A lot of the problems in the UK stem from improper application, *failure of traffic to obey the posted limits*, and lack of aftercare. Cheshire East, to their credit, at least swept the carriageway done recently near me.
> 
> ...



Is this surprising when (a) most of the road-using public don't know that they're supposed to be acting as unpaid road rollers, and (b) it seems the signs are quite often left up for far too long. So the temporary limit's going to be ignored as it's seen as elf and safety backside covering.


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## John the Monkey (20 Aug 2014)

marknotgeorge said:


> Is this surprising when (a) most of the road-using public don't know that they're supposed to be acting as unpaid road rollers, and (b) it seems the signs are quite often left up for far too long. So the temporary limit's going to be ignored as it's seen as elf and safety backside covering.


In one way no - a significant minority of motorists here seem very adept at completely ignoring a posted limit and bleating later about any adverse consequences (for them). 

On the other hand, sustaining that level of self deception would, you'd think, be tricky under the racket of the chippings pinging off their vehicles, and the cries of the pedestrians, cyclists that they're inconsiderately flinging the blasted things at. 

Not knowing the reason for a limit isn't really justifiable either, in a world where pretty much all the information there's ever been is (literally) at everyone's fingertips. Further, if they don't know the reason, why is the default to ignore the limit? Why not proceed cautiously?


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## screenman (20 Aug 2014)

For some of us there is an upside to top dressing.


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## raleighnut (20 Aug 2014)

Some of em round here treat them like rally stages.


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## PK99 (20 Aug 2014)

geocycle said:


> Just come back from France and Spain, why can't we have road surfaces like they do? Wonderful silky smooth Tarmac. I was in the mountains so it's not just weather. They also don't seem to be so patched up, if it needs repair they shut the road and do the lot.



France uses the same tar and top dressing syste we do.


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## PK99 (20 Aug 2014)

youngoldbloke said:


> Agree it is not a perfectly worded petition, but I signed it out of frustration. I can't think of any top dressed road around my way which has become more pleasant to ride on after treatment. There are a number of long stretches which were a joy for 12 - 18 months after resurfacing, and then the dreaded yellow codes appeared sprayed on the road heralding imminent surface dressing, and unpleasant riding over the months and years to come. It may 'improve' roads for motor vehicles - surface texture, skid resistance etc etc, but NOT for cycling



Like it or not the purpose of top dressing is to seal surface cracks to prevent water ingress followed by freeze thaw cycles initiating potholes.


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## GrasB (20 Aug 2014)

I like Skol said:


> Isn't there an element of responsibility on the road user to cycle/drive at an appropriate speed for the conditions? I'm not saying I like the surface dressing method but to be fair, it is more inconvenient rather than dangerous if you pay attention and watch where you are going. The situation above is more of an admission of poor observation and lack of anticipation rather than an inherent fault with the process. the recent application should have been clear to see and gives enough time to slow down to a suitable speed where the surface condition can be assessed and an appropriate line chosen?


You don't consider that for a surface that will be in existence for several days if not weeks that having a safe speed of somewhat less than 10mph for a two wheeled vehicle is appropriate? Personally I was taken by surprise by how little grip there was, that sort of behaviour is the reserve of polished ice & slick mud. It's worth mentioning that this corner I'd normally take at 35-40mph without any problems.


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## srw (20 Aug 2014)

PK99 said:


> France uses the same tar and top dressing syste we do.


 It also uses proper tarmac, but seems to be able to lay it very quickly and efficiently.


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## youngoldbloke (20 Aug 2014)

PK99 said:


> Like it or not the purpose of top dressing is to seal surface cracks to prevent water ingress followed by freeze thaw cycles initiating potholes.


Perhaps it's time to develop a better method, or to make sure that the process is used appropriately and performed correctly?


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## John the Monkey (20 Aug 2014)

PK99 said:


> France uses the same tar and top dressing syste we do.


Yep - I saw it in both the Pas De Calais, and Champagne-Ardennes. I didn't see much traffic on the roads in the former, but in the latter (on, I think, the D1, a fairly major link to other towns from where we were staying) drivers were obeying the temporary limit through the treated sections. I think we saw it on the D3 too (again, the section I'm remembering had good adherence to the temporary limit), but I might be confusing the two roads.

Application on those roads was ongoing as we were driving on them, and the traffic was being routed around a vehicle trailing the application vehicles. That might have helped move traffic across the newly laid surface, bedding it in more evenly? (In the applications I've seen in the UK, the whole road section is closed until application is completed).

I can only remember drifted chippings being an issue in one section (a corner of a small road in the Pas De Calais) but obviously, as a tourist, I had no idea how recently the road had been treated. Signage was generally pretty good, with ample warning of the change in surface, and speed limit, in both the Pas De Calais and Champagne-Ardennes.


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## Hacienda71 (20 Aug 2014)

Cheshire East no longer maintain their roads it is subcontracted to a private Co. Which may explain why their top dressing has improved over the last couple of years. They use a computer modelling programme to decide which roads to do. 
I talked to one of their chaps a year or so ago who admitted to me that the budget was insufficient and it was really a fire fighting exercise. Top dressing was seen as a cost effective short term fix. 
All that said I hate the bloody stuff.


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## guitarpete247 (20 Aug 2014)

I remember when I was at school (40 years ago) I had a paper round. All was good until they pebble dashed the road. The heavy paper bike was lethal on wet, glassy pebbles they used in and around Doncaster in those days.
They did the Green, out here where I now live, about* 3 years* ago. I'm still getting a car full of granite chippings and we are still having them brought into the house.


Any way. I filled in petition last night and clicked confirmation this morning.


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## spen666 (20 Aug 2014)

Ban this and pay 3 times the council tax? Strange the cost issue isn't mentioned


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## Origamist (20 Aug 2014)

Part of the problem is the lack of a proper sweeping regimen, IME. There are two stretches of road on my commute that have had surface dressing in the last 3 months and the surplus gravel can prove to be a bigger hazard than some of the holes and cracks that were previously there...


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## screenman (20 Aug 2014)

Origamist said:


> Part of the problem is the lack of a proper sweeping regimen, IME. There are two stretches of road on my commute that have had surface dressing in the last 3 months and the surplus gravel can prove to be a bigger hazard than some of the holes and cracks that were previously there...



You are bang on right there, according to a large national company whose owners I chatted to about this the roads should be swept 3 times after top dressing, but because the councils highways seldom check they often miss 1 or 2 to save/make more money on the job. Civil servants not doing the job properly, so why should they was what I was told.


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## phil_hg_uk (20 Aug 2014)

Signed

They just did our road, what a mess.


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## I like Skol (20 Aug 2014)

There is an alternative to the tar/chippings/roller/sweep method that my local authority used on my lane and quite a few other roads across the borough several years ago. They used it mostly on the less major roads but it appears to have stood the test of time well so far for what is at best a patch up job of an otherwise end of life surface. I don't know how well it would stand up to high traffic use but on the low and medium use roads I have witnessed it's application to, it does seem quite effective at halting the break-up of the surface and preventing damage from the freeze/thaw cycle that wreaks havoc on older roads.

The treatment consists of some kind of emulsion of tar, finer chippings and maybe a solvent too. It is spread on the surface almost like a thick paint or polyfilla and is dry/set within hours with none of the loose residual gravel that is the issue you all have with the more common method. I'm no expert and have no idea of the comparative cost of this alternative method but on the face of it does appear to be an elegant solution to the problem of road surface dressing that lasts well, is quick to apply and provides a firm, grippy surface that does not polish up along the driven line in hot weather. Perhaps the petition should have suggested an alternative like this instead of, as someone has suggested early on, just asking for the chippings to be banned?


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## screenman (20 Aug 2014)

Adrian, I was stating the guys words, in my opinion 2 wrongs do not make it right.


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## cd365 (20 Aug 2014)

Signed


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## Hip Priest (20 Aug 2014)

They did it to two of my favourite fast roads in Northumberland recently. It's a right bummer when you're looking forward to a fast, flowing country lane and you end up having to tiptoe round it at 10mph in order to stay shiny side up.


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## I like Skol (20 Aug 2014)

Hip Priest said:


> They did it to two of my favourite fast roads in Northumberland recently. It's a right bummer when you're looking forward to a fast, flowing country lane and you end up having to tiptoe round it at 10mph in order to stay shiny side up.


Wuss! Pick up the speed, hang on tight and enjoy the ride (that's what I do ). They did one of the roads on my commute about a year ago and it was all good as long as I remembered to wear my shades to protect from the thrown stones.


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## John the Monkey (21 Aug 2014)

I like Skol said:


> Perhaps the petition should have suggested an alternative like this instead of, as someone has suggested early on, just asking for the chippings to be banned?


Or called for it to be used appropriately (not on roads with severe camber, not on roads with low traffic volumes, not on roads the council/contractor are unwilling to sweep, etc etc) that temporary limits are enforced, that the public are better informed[1] about why this treatment is used, I could go on. 

The problem (for me) is that the petitioner seems not to understand the process, the effect traffic has on it, or that it can be a good, possibly the best, option in some circumstances.

[1] Although, as I pointed out (I think) earlier, it's staggeringly easy to find this out.


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## PK99 (21 Aug 2014)

John the Monkey said:


> Yep - *I saw it in both the Pas De Calais, and Champagne-Ardennes.* I didn't see much traffic on the roads in the former, but in the latter (on, I think, the D1, a fairly major link to other towns from where we were staying) drivers were obeying the temporary limit through the treated sections. I think we saw it on the D3 too (again, the section I'm remembering had good adherence to the temporary limit), but I might be confusing the two roads.
> 
> Application on those roads was ongoing as we were driving on them, and the traffic was being routed around a vehicle trailing the application vehicles. That might have helped move traffic across the newly laid surface, bedding it in more evenly? (In the applications I've seen in the UK, the whole road section is closed until application is completed).
> 
> I can only remember drifted chippings being an issue in one section (a corner of a small road in the Pas De Calais) but obviously, as a tourist, I had no idea how recently the road had been treated. Signage was generally pretty good, with ample warning of the change in surface, and speed limit, in both the Pas De Calais and Champagne-Ardennes.



a friend we were staying with in Normandy last week commented that is is common place there -- with exactly the same issues as here.


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## PK99 (21 Aug 2014)

John the Monkey said:


> -
> The problem (for me) is that the petitioner seems not to understand the process, the effect traffic has on it, or that it can be a good, *possibly the best, option in some circumstances*.
> .



On a road surface that is not potholed but has cracks or incipient cracks, tar spraying is the best option - leaving the cracks unprotected, allows in water and a winter of freeze/thaw results in potholes


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## david k (23 Aug 2014)

just resurfaced our road and there was nothing wrong with it????

Oddly, the road round the corner is terrible, but hasnt been done?


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## Dragonwight (25 Aug 2014)

Council contracted the lot out in our area its all being done under a PFI now, haven't seen any surface dressing done since it was. All the work I have seen done involves scraping the road up and laying smooth tarmac. The logic they use for doing roads though is a mystery as some seem perfectly ok roads, while others are a total state. Aint cheap either it costs the local tax payer 18 million a year and that's with 62k households for council tax.


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## Drago (26 Aug 2014)

My bro in law is a civil engineer, and he bucks the councils official "it's a cheap way of improving a road surface'" line. He reckons it only very briefly makes an improvement, weeks, months at the most, then as the chips start to loosen they themselves provide an abrasive medium between tyres and the road surface which actually accelerates the wear of the road surface.

My biggest personal bugbear is thwen the chips have worn off, usually on a corner or junction where the load through the car tyres is greatest, leving a slick, glass smooth bitumen surface which is dodgy in the dry and like ptfe in the wet.


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## david k (30 Aug 2014)

is that the quality of the job rather than the surface?
the new surface near me is very good, only the corners look terrible were they took little care, if that leads to an issue thats the job not the surface


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## Drago (30 Aug 2014)

I'm not sure how easy it is to influence the quality of the job. They spray the Marmite, they sprinkle the rice crispies. It'd be pretty hard to muff up either process.


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## Hacienda71 (30 Aug 2014)

I fecking hate it when they top dress without properly filling all the potholes first, makes it even harder to spot the buggers.


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