# Some advice on Night Cycling?



## Andy OC (22 Oct 2009)

Hello everyone,
I've got into cycling in the past couple of months or so and am loving it; a few weeks ago I broke 60 miles on a trip to York. I've been stepping it up gently - not so many long trips but plenty of 20-30 mile capers around Newcastle and Durham, and am going to aim for my first century this weekend - Newcastle to Bradford to meet a friend at uni there.
Now a fair bit of this cycle will be at night; think I sorted with regards to lighting - a solid and a flashing light on both ends and plenty of reflective clothes - (though any / all advice gratefully received) but was wondering what other things I should look out for on a night ride that I will no doubt have overlooked?
Would it be a wise idea, for example, to take a trangia and sachet of soup or hot chocolate or suchlike? As I'm pretty sure nowhere is going to be serving anything at 11pm! 
I suppose I'm just looking for some general advice on the various challenges of cycling on out-of-town roads at night.

Cheers
Andy


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## slowmotion (22 Oct 2009)

Welcome Andy,

You cannot have too much visibility! Better to look like a prat ( as some would see it) , than be a dead hero , IMVVHO. Hi Viz cuffs are probably a good idea so that you can be seen when indicating turns. Oh yes, a helmet..

I speak as an aged beginner wimp with an advanced sense of his own mortality by the way.


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## Andy OC (22 Oct 2009)

Thanks for the welcome Slowmotion,
Thanks also for the advice; I tend to agree with you regarding visibility! I've got myself some armbands with reflective material on - are these the 'cuffs' you referenced? 

Cheers
Andy


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## lit (22 Oct 2009)

Helmets just give you the illusion of safety, most people who wear helmets aren't confident riders.


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## darkstar (22 Oct 2009)

lit said:


> Helmets just give you the illusion of safety, most people who wear helmets aren't confident riders.


Don't turn this into a debate on Helmets
I suppose you should take some food and water but there are plenty of 24 hour supermarkets/garages that you'll be able to pop into, maybe have a few planned before hand? 
Good luck!


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## slowmotion (22 Oct 2009)

lit said:


> Helmets just give you the illusion of safety, most people who wear helmets aren't confident riders.



I never claimed to be one, and I am certainly not, and if you do not want to wear one, that is fine with me, and I respect your decision.

Ride safely.


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## lit (22 Oct 2009)

I wasn't referring to you specifically, just my thoughts from my observations of other cyclists, I could be wrong, who knows.

I think if someone did try it without a helmet they'd enjoy it more, depends on the person really.


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## slowmotion (22 Oct 2009)

lit said:


> I wasn't referring to you specifically, just my thoughts from my observations of other cyclists, I could be wrong, who knows.
> 
> I think if someone did try it without a helmet they'd enjoy it more, depends on the person really.



Fair point. I love the wind in my (thinning) hair, and when not riding in traffic, I tend not to wear one. My take is simply that , at night, on a road, cyclists get killed for loads of reasons. I think that a helmet might stack the odds a bit in my direction, and I wear one. I would much rather not do so. 

Ride safely


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## threefingerjoe (22 Oct 2009)

Use good lights...not just to be seen, but something that you can actually SEE by.


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## Tony B (22 Oct 2009)

I would have back up lights, at least 2 on the front and back, the more the merrier, also if you going at night wrap up warm, if you get to hot you can remove a layer, but by not wearing enough you'll get colder,


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## Randochap (22 Oct 2009)

Pretend you're a Christmas tree.


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## Fab Foodie (22 Oct 2009)

Good lighting to see and be seen-with plus spare batteries and back-ups. Site lligts at different positions at the rae, have one solid and one flashing.
Reflectives, ankle and wrist bands are cheap and available (e.g. - slap-wraps at Halfords) ankle bands are particularly effective at night.
Peaked cap is very useful like a cycle cap (Prendas £6 ish) which can be worn under a helmet if desired is good to keep the glare from oncoming lights out of your eyes.
Flexible clothing's good, temperatures can change rapidly at night. Buffs are useful too.
Cold feet are a killer, overshoes are brill, but sandwich bags work as a cheap and lightweight alternative (over your socks).
Hot drink? Take a flask.
Remember to drink and eat also, I find at night I tend to do this less than during the day, don't quite know why.
Night riding's ace.

Edit: A good head torch such as a Petzl Tikka plus is a great addition, allows you to scan the hedgerows and gives a high level point of light to oncoming road users. One of my best purchases.


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## jimboalee (22 Oct 2009)

Yup, a lamp that uses AA batteries with plenty of spares. The lamp should be removeable so it can be positioned to illuminate a puncture repair.

Darkstar's recommendation of researching the 24 hour garages is a MUST.


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## lit (22 Oct 2009)

slowmotion said:


> Fair point. I love the wind in my (thinning) hair, and when not riding in traffic, I tend not to wear one. My take is simply that , at night, on a road, cyclists get killed for loads of reasons. I think that a helmet might stack the odds a bit in my direction, and I wear one. I would much rather not do so.
> 
> Ride safely



Fair point, I do find myself looking over my shoulder at night more than the day.

As long as we all enjoy our riding is the most important thing.


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## jimboalee (22 Oct 2009)

Come to think about it, I've been 'night cycling' every weekday morning for the last two months.


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## mr Mag00 (22 Oct 2009)

i slip a smart style light into the adjustable strap at the base rear of the helmet. i have read some bollocks on here but I have to say this takes the crown


> Helmets just give you the illusion of safety, most people who wear helmets aren't confident riders.


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## tyred (22 Oct 2009)

I agree with FF about the peaked cap. I always wear a baseball cap at night and can use it to prevent glare from oncoming headlamps by dipping my head slightly. You can't make yourself too visible. A good bright front light, correctly set, will "encourage" drivers to dip their headlamps earlier...


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## lit (22 Oct 2009)

mr Mag00 said:


> i slip a smart style light into the adjustable strap at the base rear of the helmet. i have read some bollocks on here but I have to say this takes the crown



I was asked not to turn this into a helmet thread so you're welcome to pm me WHY you think it's "Bollocks".


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## Wheeledweenie (22 Oct 2009)

I fell in love with night cycling through the FNRttC (check them out in the CC and informal rides section). They're the best guys to give tips and the best ones they gave me were:
Layers; distance means you'll dip into cool and warm spots so be prepared. 
Lights; put them on and carry spare batteries.
Brakes; make sure they're fresh as darkness can hide things until the last minute.
Food and water; you'll so need it.
Make sure someone knows where you are.
Repair kit and inner tubes; make sure you have them!


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## HJ (22 Oct 2009)

slowmotion said:


> Welcome Andy,
> 
> You cannot have too much visibility! Better to look like a prat ( as some would see it) , than be a dead hero , IMVVHO. Hi Viz cuffs are probably a good idea so that you can be seen when indicating turns. Oh yes, a helmet..
> 
> I speak as an aged beginner wimp with an advanced sense of his own mortality by the way.



Speaking as an experienced cyclist, there is no substitute for a really bright set of lights. Hi Viz is much over rated, _in theory_ it is a good idea, but in practice many drivers don't look for it and therefore don't see it. The same motorist will look out for a bight light(s) as this something which might do them harm.

As for a helmet, it is a total red hering, wear one if you like the _look_, but don't expect it to make any difference to your safety, because it won't.


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## Rhythm Thief (22 Oct 2009)

If you're going to be doing a lot of night cycling (and it is fun), it's worth investing in a good dynamo system. They're not cheap, but they're reliable and you never find yourself running out of batteries in the middle of nowhere. Mine is backed up by flashing LEDs at both ends.


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## Norm (22 Oct 2009)

HJ said:


> As for a helmet, it is a total red hering, wear one if you like the _look_, but don't expect it to make any difference to your safety, because it won't.


Even a vociferous lid-sceptic like you would have problems supporting that stance!

Depending on the circumstances, it _might _make a difference, it _might not_ make a difference, it _might even _make things _worse_, but you write that it _won't_ make a difference? That seems a strange thing to say.

Not that I find it strange that you say it, as you seem to do your best to divert any thread which mentions helmets, however abstractly, into an anti-helmet rant and argument. Sadly, I realise that I've just assisted you in your crusading endeavours.


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## palinurus (22 Oct 2009)

Good lights (with long-enough runtimes if you are using rechargebles), warm-enough clothing (takes experience, better to be too warm). Flask of coffee.


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## Arch (22 Oct 2009)

Keep an eye on your local pound shop. I got an ankle band with 5 flashing LEDs from mine, doubles as a trouser clip. For a quid, it's a bargain. I'm waiting for them to have some more. Not only goes round the ankle, but could be velcro'd to the bike, or hanging from the loop on your jacket....

Plus one for dynamos. And a flask - take plain hot water, then you can make soup, tea or coffee (assuming you have all those with you.) Probably quicker then setting up a stove.


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## Chamfus Flange (22 Oct 2009)

All the items suggested above are good (with exception to losing the helmet). In addition keep some contact details and give the person you heading for an intended route map and arrival time. These are even more important if you're doing the run on your own.



.


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## Andy OC (22 Oct 2009)

Thanks everyone for your comprehensive replies. I've got myself the biggest Cat Eye lights I could get my hands on and will be also using my slightly crummier flashing lights so i get a solid and a flashing light at both ends. I've also invested in some Hi-Vis armband / cuff things. My pannier's back ends have reflective material on too. 

I'll be taking plenty of food and plenty of clothes - as many as are practicable, anyway. Good idea about the flask - no idea why I didn't think of that! I've plotted my service stations out too, so I can dive in there should I need it. People have a copy of my route too.

Thanks again to everyone who has replied; I'll let you know how it goes!

Cheers
Andy


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## al78 (22 Oct 2009)

If you are cycling on unlit country lanes, being dazzled by oncoming traffic is a real hazard. You night vision can temporarily go and you lose all contrast between the road and the verge so that all you will see is a bright light surrounded by blackness. To avoid this when a car is approaching look downwards and towards the side of the road until it has gone past to avoid getting temporarily blinded. This is also important when approaching a road summit - when a car comes over the brow from the other side its lights will be momentarily aimed right in your face.


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## al78 (22 Oct 2009)

Norm said:


> Even a vociferous lid-sceptic like you would have problems supporting that stance!
> 
> Depending on the circumstances, it _might _make a difference, it _might not_ make a difference, it _might even _make things _worse_, but you write that it _won't_ make a difference? That seems a strange thing to say.



On average, there is no evidence to show that helmets make a significant difference to cyclists safety. This is supported by data from countries that introduced helmet compulsion laws that showed that although helmet wearing shot up after the law was passed, there was no corresponding drop in cyclist head injury rates.


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## wafflycat (22 Oct 2009)

Where I cycle, the roads are unlit, so it's important to see as well as be seen. I work on the low-flying UFO principle when cycling at night. I have acres of reflectives on the bike and on me. I also have a minimum of three rear lights and three front lights. One of the best things I have to aid 'being seen' by oncoming motorists is to use an LED headtorch on my lid. It was noticeable, from the first time I used a lid-mounted light, that I was seen by oncoming traffic sooner than when I wasn't wearing it. Lights were dipped sooner. It's also exceedingly useful for lighting up signposts and for highlighting the verge. Plus, if an oncoming driver doesn't dip headlights, you can do a swift and brief direct look to where the driver would be - it grabs the attention. Also useful when there's traffic at a side road - again a swift/brief look at where the driver would be grabs the attention to let them register your presence.

Oh, and at Christmas I wear flashing Santa earrings...

Edit: mustn't forget... always check that your lights are working before you set off. Replace batteries if lights are dim, and always, but always, take spare batteries with you (if you're not running a dynamo setup)


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## HJ (22 Oct 2009)

My major objection to helmets, it that they make people think that cycling is a dangerous activity, which it isn't. You really don't need to wear one, no you don't, and I strongly object to the bullying attitude of those who keep insisting that we all should. As al78 has just pointed out "there is no evidence to show that helmets make a significant difference to cyclists safety". If you are not convinced try visiting Denmark or the Netherlands, far more cyclist that you see here, and hardly a helmet in sight, although Bell Sport would love to change all that. [rant mode] Cycle helmets are a con! The Emperor has no clothes on! Wake up and see that you are being fleeced!!
[/rant mode]

As for Hi-Viz, it is a good idea in theory, but sadly in practice there are drivers out there who just don't look for it. If you really want to be seen at night (or even in the day) there really is no substitute for a really good set of lights. Of course this doesn't guarantee that you will be seen (some people pull out in front of big red trucks which are lit up like christmas trees, and it pees of the fireman driving it when they do), but it gives you a much better chance...


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## ufkacbln (22 Oct 2009)

Don't take this as a negative, as it is not meant that way.

Do beware of Chavesque activities at chucking out time. Cyclists can be a bit of a target or boozed up morons in Chavriolets.

Apart from thet I think you have things about right, my only other suggestions would be t make sure you are confident in your route as navigating at night has decreased visibility removing many landmarks and reference points, secondly with any long route have a couple of escape routes should anything adverse happen


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## Cubist (22 Oct 2009)

Can't help adding to the lights v hi-viz debate.
1. At night hi viz yellow on its own makes no difference**. Use good lights front and back.
2. It doesn't matter what colour your clothing is, under darkness and headlights no one colour other than possibly white will make you be seen any quicker. Use good quality lights front and back.
3. Reflective detail IS worth wearing. I just dropped Cubester off at the MTB club, and followed the group up the road in my car. Cubester was wearing shoes with reflective heels, tights with reflective strips on the lower leg, a rain jacket with reflective piping on all the rearward facing seams, and reflective piping on his gloves. He literally glowed like a silver outline. His good quality lights, front and rear helped too. 

**Hi-viz jackets with scotchlite strips however are excellent.


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## Rhythm Thief (22 Oct 2009)

al78 said:


> On average, there is no evidence to show that helmets make a significant difference to cyclists safety. This is supported by data from countries that introduced helmet compulsion laws that showed that although helmet wearing shot up after the law was passed, there was no corresponding drop in cyclist head injury rates.



Look, be quiet about helmets, pro and anti. This thread is about night cycling, not helmets. Although in fairness I should point out that you've made some good posts on night cycling too.


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## al78 (22 Oct 2009)

Rhythm Thief said:


> Look, be quiet about helmets, pro and anti. This thread is about night cycling, not helmets. Although in fairness I should point out that you've made some good posts on night cycling too.



Sorry, whilst I appreciate helmets are an emotive subject, I feel that if someone asks for some advice on something and someone else responds with something that is best highly controversial and in all likelihood false then it needs to be pointed out, out of respect for the OP if nothing else.

Anyhow, I have made my point and shall say no more on the subject.


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## Sam Kennedy (22 Oct 2009)

Woot another person from Newcastle on here 
Where abouts in Newcastle do you live? If you really wanted to, you could come out with the Gosforth Road Club on the weekend


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## Lazy-Commuter (23 Oct 2009)

wafflycat said:


> Where I cycle, the roads are unlit, so it's important to see as well as be seen. I work on the low-flying UFO principle when cycling at night. I have acres of reflectives on the bike and on me. I also have a minimum of three rear lights and three front lights. One of the best things I have to aid 'being seen' by oncoming motorists is to use an LED headtorch on my lid. It was noticeable, from the first time I used a lid-mounted light, that I was seen by oncoming traffic sooner than when I wasn't wearing it. Lights were dipped sooner. It's also exceedingly useful for lighting up signposts and for highlighting the verge. Plus, if an oncoming driver doesn't dip headlights, you can do a swift and brief direct look to where the driver would be - it grabs the attention. Also useful when there's traffic at a side road - again a swift/brief look at where the driver would be grabs the attention to let them register your presence.
> 
> Oh, and at Christmas I wear flashing Santa earrings...
> 
> Edit: mustn't forget... always check that your lights are working before you set off. Replace batteries if lights are dim, and always, but always, take spare batteries with you (if you're not running a dynamo setup)


Another vote for some sort of head-mounted torch. I find this especially helpful off road and on narrow lanes in the dark: you get light where you're looking, rather than just where your front lights happen to be pointing.

Not sure how much of an issue that'll be on your planned route but it's also useful for all the things wafflycat pointed out.

There's a use for a helmet: you can fix the light on it.


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## siadwell (23 Oct 2009)

As well as the advantages of using a headtorch as outlined by Wafflycat, research by Honda has shown that vertically separated lights on motorcycles improved perception of their speed and distance by motorists (see "flashing cycle lights" thread).


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## Lazy-Commuter (23 Oct 2009)

And you can at least see what you're doing to fix stuff on the bike, should you have to ..


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## g00se (23 Oct 2009)

Lazy-Commuter said:


> And you can at least see what you're doing to fix stuff on the bike, should you have to ..



Big reminder from this post - take as many tools and spares as you can comfortably carry. And a fully charged mobile.


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## Crankarm (23 Oct 2009)

Spare tube and pump which should be a given. Several front lights one of which should be pointed at the area directly in front of your bike so you can avoid potholes, poor road surfaces, dead animals any other debris ready to unseat you or knacker your wheels. 




HJ said:


> As for Hi-Viz, it is a good idea in theory, but sadly in practice there are drivers out there who just don't look for it.



Hi Viz is excellent. If you believe drivers don't notice it, you're not wearing true Hi-Viz. 

Any true Hi-viz surface ie Scotchlite will glow in the dark if light is shone on it. One cannot fail to notice it. If it's crap why do the emergency services wear Hi-Viz clothing? There is no accounting for how thick some people are .


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## g00se (23 Oct 2009)

Call me thick . Reflective will 'glow' with the smallest amount of incidental light on it - but hi-vis is just 'day-glo' (a bright colour). So in the dark, hi-vis is still hard to see unless a lot of light is falling on it.

Saying that though, it's very good in dawn/dusk (and also dull rainy days) when everything else seems grey. So it's worth it as the OP will be cycling in those conditions too.


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## Arch (23 Oct 2009)

g00se said:


> Call me thick . Reflective will 'glow' with the smallest amount of incidental light on it - but hi-vis is just 'day-glo' (a bright colour). So in the dark, hi-vis is still hard to see unless a lot of light is falling on it.
> 
> Saying that though, it's very good in dawn/dusk (and also dull rainy days) when everything else seems grey. So it's worth it as the OP will be cycling in those conditions too.



I suppose it's a matter of defintion, but to me 'Hi-Vis' will have both a dayglo colour *and* reflectives. Just like the emergency service garb. If it hasn't got reflectives, to me, it's just 'bright coloured'*.

Of course, Hi-vis is no _replacement_ for lights, but who ever said it was? I don't understand why people have to be so tetchy on that point. You just have both.

*But even that helps. Apart from anything else, a bright jacket identifies something ahead as 'probably a cyclist'. Riding last weekend, over an undulating moor road in clear sunlight, I spied well ahead what looked at first glance to be black sheep walking along the road. A few more seconds looking revealed it to be a member of my group, on his recumbent**. He was wearing all dark colours. If he'd had something yellow, or red, or orange or bright green on, I'd have spotted straight away what he was. Ok, there wasn't a safety aspect in that moment, but I'd have immediately known it was a cyclist.

**It took me ages to catch him up


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## HJ (23 Oct 2009)

Lazy-Commuter said:


> Another vote for some sort of head-mounted torch. I find this especially helpful off road and on narrow lanes in the dark: you get light where you're looking, rather than just where your front lights happen to be pointing.
> 
> Not sure how much of an issue that'll be on your planned route but it's also useful for all the things wafflycat pointed out.



A head torch is useful as a supplementary light, but don't be tempted to use it as your only front light. Other road users will look for lights at a lower level (unless it is either very bright or you are on a recumbent), so make sure you also have at least one light either on the handlebars or front forks...


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## wafflycat (23 Oct 2009)

g00se said:


> Call me thick . Reflective will 'glow' with the smallest amount of incidental light on it - but hi-vis is just 'day-glo' (a bright colour). So in the dark, hi-vis is still hard to see unless a lot of light is falling on it.
> 
> Saying that though, it's very good in dawn/dusk (and also dull rainy days) when everything else seems grey. So it's worth it as the OP will be cycling in those conditions too.



Yup - 'hi-viz' is IME used to refer to *fluorescent* colours, so effective during the day. What is required at night is *reflective* materials. Combination of the two on one garment is useful and it seems that 'hi-viz' is being used more to describe the two in conjunction. Of course, lights are still required.


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## Fab Foodie (23 Oct 2009)

HJ said:


> A head torch is useful as a supplementary light, but don't be tempted to use it as your only front light. Other road users will look for lights at a lower level (unless it is either very bright or you are on a recumbent), so make sure you also have at least one light either on the handlebars or front forks...


Agreed.
They're particularly good in the urban environment for catching looking at and catching the eyes of somebody pulling-out of a side road for example (in a way that fixed lights will not). Also really useful when looking for stuff in your bag, fixing p*nctures, camping, working in the loft, painting, wiring..... etc!


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## Lazy-Commuter (23 Oct 2009)

HJ said:


> A head torch is useful as a supplementary light, but don't be tempted to use it as your only front light. Other road users will look for lights at a lower level (unless it is either very bright or you are on a recumbent), so make sure you also have at least one light either on the handlebars or front forks...


Absolutely. I have two front lights, bar mounted: on lit roads, I have one flashing and one steady, on unlit roads I have them both on steady, off road and on darker roads, I add the head torch. Sorry, I didn't make it clear that the head torch was a supplement ..


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## fossyant (23 Oct 2009)

lit said:


> Helmets just give you the illusion of safety, most people who wear helmets aren't confident riders.



Whatever chuck !


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## SavageHoutkop (23 Oct 2009)

Speaking of Christmas Trees....


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## Davidc (23 Oct 2009)

Good advice on here.

See, be seen, keep warm, food, drink, phone, lights, tools, reflecting bits, head torch is useful especialy if anything needs mending, enjoy it.


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## ufkacbln (23 Oct 2009)

Rhythm Thief said:


> Look, be quiet about helmets, pro and anti. This thread is about night cycling, not helmets. Although in fairness I should point out that you've made some good posts on night cycling too.



Attaching a light bracket to your helmet hurts less than attaching a light bracket to your head..... conclusive proof that helmets are essential at night!


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## HJ (23 Oct 2009)

Cunobelin said:


> Attaching a light bracket to your helmet hurts less than *attaching a light bracket to your head*..... conclusive proof that helmets are essential at night!



Why? Just wear a head band with the light on, like this...


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## Rip Van (23 Oct 2009)

lit said:


> Helmets just give you the illusion of safety, most people who wear helmets aren't confident riders.




Erse!


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## wafflycat (23 Oct 2009)

lit said:


> Helmets just give you the illusion of safety, most people who wear helmets aren't confident riders.



That's a damning verdict on the entire peleton...


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## Banjo (23 Oct 2009)

Fab Foodie said:


> Good lighting to see and be seen-with plus spare batteries and back-ups. Site lligts at different positions at the rae, have one solid and one flashing.
> Reflectives, ankle and wrist bands are cheap and available (e.g. - slap-wraps at Halfords) ankle bands are particularly effective at night.
> Peaked cap is very useful like a cycle cap (Prendas £6 ish) which can be worn under a helmet if desired is good to keep the glare from oncoming lights out of your eyes.
> Flexible clothing's good, temperatures can change rapidly at night. Buffs are useful too.
> ...



I considered putting my feet in two tesco bags the other day but didnt think it would look the part ,I didnt think of putting them inside the shoes but over the socks. 2 Sandwich bags going on the bike tommorow


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## lit (24 Oct 2009)

wafflycat said:


> That's a damning verdict on the entire peleton...



*Most*, nice try though.


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## wafflycat (24 Oct 2009)

Right then... that's a damning verdict on *most* of the peleton..


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## Fab Foodie (24 Oct 2009)

wafflycat said:


> Right then... that's a damning verdict on *most* of the peleton..


 ... Don't they _have_ to wear them under UCI rules?


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## roundisland (24 Oct 2009)

I've just started using a helmet after my first 6 months on the road and when i get cycling I hardly know i have it on.

If helmets are not benifical why do the pro cyclists ware them, cant be coz they enjoy having the extra weight on there bikes, do they have to ware them?


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## lit (24 Oct 2009)

wafflycat said:


> Right then... that's a damning verdict on *most* of the peleton..



I said cyclists not peletons, I still stand by what I said so good luck with where you are taking it.


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## fossyant (24 Oct 2009)

lit said:


> I said cyclists not peletons, I still stand by what I said so good luck with where you are taking it.



You are talking a load of rubbish...sorry. Most of the cyclists I know wear helmets - all experienced. Some don't, but that's their choice.


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## lit (24 Oct 2009)

Explain to me how I am talking rubbish?


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## Banjo (24 Oct 2009)

I usually wear one on the road but would hate to see them become mandatory. One I have didnt cost much and I barely know its on when riding.

No point arguing amongst ourselves about it its your head make your own decision.


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## wafflycat (24 Oct 2009)

lit said:


> Explain to me how I am talking rubbish?



The vast majority of cyclists I know - which includes those doing touring, audaxes, club level competition to Olympic level competition, wear lids, either through choice or due to competition rules - they are experienced, confident cyclists. It's erronous, IMO, to suggest, as you did, that, _"most people who wear helmets aren't confident riders."_


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## GrasB (24 Oct 2009)

g00se said:


> Call me thick . Reflective will 'glow' with the smallest amount of incidental light on it - but hi-vis is just 'day-glo' (a bright colour). So in the dark, hi-vis is still hard to see unless a lot of light is falling on it.


Bright coloured materials are okay but day-glo when exposed to any reasonably powerful light will be brighter. You then you have reflective which reflects light in all directions, this is good for using light sources such as street lights for highlighting a road user. With that said, the big one for other road user is retro-active materials, they have some kind of lensing effect build into the reflective material which sends back almost all the light in almost the same direction, it's even brighter than reflective materials. All of these are armoury you can use to be seen, mixing all 3 of the hi-viz options together should give you good visibility no matter what the situation. With that said the final thing is lights, none of these materials substitute having bright 'be seen' lights on your bike.

Below are 2 photos of a normal bright orange (though it was a plastic bag so brighter than normal cloth), high viz yellow in gortex & lycra/nylon, a reflective band & retro-active high lights. On the left without flash but a 25w equivalent bulb 2m away & with flash to the right.


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## Fab Foodie (24 Oct 2009)

roundisland said:


> I've just started using a helmet after my first 6 months on the road and when i get cycling I hardly know i have it on.
> 
> *If helmets are not benifical why do the pro cyclists ware them, cant be coz they enjoy having the extra weight on there bikes, do they have to ware them*?



I think because they have too. Certainly in the TDF helmets are mandatory.


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## lit (24 Oct 2009)

wafflycat said:


> The vast majority of cyclists I know - which includes those doing touring, audaxes, club level competition to Olympic level competition, wear lids, either through choice or due to competition rules - they are experienced, confident cyclists. It's erronous, IMO, to suggest, as you did, that, _"most people who wear helmets aren't confident riders."_



Now you've offered a quality response I see where you are coming from, but I thought it'd be clear I was talking about commuters as quite clearly you don't become a professional by not being confident.


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## HJ (24 Oct 2009)

roundisland said:


> I've just started using a helmet after my first 6 months on the road and when i get cycling I hardly know i have it on.
> 
> If helmets are not benifical why do the pro cyclists ware them, cant be coz they enjoy having the extra weight on there bikes, do they have to ware them?



Because they have to, and if the rules didn't make them, then the sponsors would as there is a lot of money to be made from cycle helmets. They cost £2.50 to make and distribute, then retail for £40 +, nice fat profit margin and they are easy to sell. Fear sells, keep telling people the cycling is really dangerous and that they must wear a helmet and the mugs will keep of buying!


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## Arch (24 Oct 2009)

HJ said:


> Because they have to, and if the rules didn't make them, then the sponsors would as there is a lot of money to be made from cycle helmets. They cost £2.50 to make and distribute, then retail for £40 +, nice fat profit margin and they are easy to sell. Fear sells, keep telling people the cycling is really dangerous and that they must wear a helmet and the mugs will keep of buying!



Look, you don't have to wear one, but stop trying to suggest that those who do are in some way stupid. I wear one, sometimes. It depends on what sort of ride I'm doing and the conditions. Partly I have one to keep my Mum happy. Sometimes I wear it because I'm wearing all the kit, and it's part of the 'uniform'. I'm perfectly confident on a bike, I commute, I ride for fun, I tour. I don't appreciate you sneering at me for having a helmet.


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## Rip Van (24 Oct 2009)

lit said:


> I said cyclists not peletons, I still stand by what I said so good luck with where you are taking it.



Erse! Becoming bigger!


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## lit (24 Oct 2009)

Rip Van said:


> Erse! Becoming bigger!



You seem like a little dog that won't let go, i'm embarrassed for you.


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## Fab Foodie (24 Oct 2009)

lit said:


> You seem like a little dog that won't let go, i'm embarrassed for you.


Are you son of simoncc perchance?


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## lit (24 Oct 2009)

No but I'm not a fool


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## lit (25 Oct 2009)

> Look, you don't have to wear one, but stop trying to suggest that those who do are in some way stupid


 He's not saying they are stupid, he is just saying people are being conned into thinking cycling is dangerous when it isn't.


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## Rip Van (25 Oct 2009)

lit said:


> No but I'm not a fool



That, my friend(sic), is for others to decide.

Oh! Topic, lights are a good idea when it's dim!


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## lit (25 Oct 2009)

Well I can assure you i'm not, I'm not bothered what "others" think.


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## Rip Van (25 Oct 2009)

lit said:


> Well I can assure you i'm not, I'm not bothered what "others" think.



Good for you. Mind your head.
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.12060
Great light! Brighter than some car headlights.
I use a fenix velcro block for this but there's cheaper on deal extreme that look quite good.

Downside is you need 1 "18650" battery (rechargeable) & charger, plus spare?
Also on DX.


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## lit (25 Oct 2009)

you too, take care out there.


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## roundisland (25 Oct 2009)

Fab Foodie said:


> I think because they have too. Certainly in the TDF helmets are mandatory.




Ok thanks wasn't sure if it was mandatory or not.


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## andrew_s (25 Oct 2009)

Rip Van said:


> Good for you. Mind your head.
> http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.12060
> Great light! Brighter than some car headlights.
> I use a fenix velcro block for this but there's cheaper on deal extreme that look quite good.
> ...



Try this one
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.29489

Apart from a UK plug adapter it's got everything you need, even a head/helmet mount. 3h on max power.
beamshots here, as "Magicshine HA-III" under Road and Road2


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## johnr (25 Oct 2009)

Plus one for lights and reflective clothing. I use a Foska skeleton jacket when it gets cold enough, cars stay well away from me. Aldi reflective strips also make a noticeable difference.

Plus one for glare protection - my worst nightmare.

As you're going a long way, might be worth doing a bit of research on the route. At this time of year the falling leaves and the rubbish washed onto roads are encroaching on the cycling line and the best lights won't enable you to distinguish quickly between piles of leaves and chunks of fallen branch - not too much of a problem on the flat, but the devil if you're going downhill at speed.

Enjoy! I love cycling at night.


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## fossyant (25 Oct 2009)

lit said:


> you too, take care out there.



"lit"...I do hope you aren't the same person from 'another forum' who has an expensive Italian machine, that can't do much other than maybe fix a puncture on it....... 

So..wearing helmets means you aren't confident.... and the rest..... 

Riding an expensive bike means you know what you are doing.....eh...  if flippin doesn't......does it..... ......

PS I'm Experienced, wear a lid (my choice - sweat control actually), and have a few expensive bikes...some of which are vintage and very well looked after, and have never been near a bike shop......


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## HJ (26 Oct 2009)

Arch said:


> Look, you don't have to wear one, but stop trying to suggest that those who do are in some way stupid. I wear one, sometimes. It depends on what sort of ride I'm doing and the conditions. Partly I have one to keep my Mum happy. Sometimes I wear it because I'm wearing all the kit, and it's part of the 'uniform'. I'm perfectly confident on a bike, I commute, I ride for fun, I tour. I don't appreciate you sneering at me for having a helmet.



Arch, I am not saying you are "in some way stupid", but I would ask when you started wearing one and why. It is clear from you statement that you wear one out of habit rather that any feeling of need. 

If your Mum is worried about you why not take some time to explain to her that cycling is not dangerous and you really don't need one. She probable cycled when she was younger, ask her did she wear then, did she make you wear one when you wear a child? The death rate on the roads for cyclist and pedestrians has droped steadily over the last 30 years, although the rate of decline in cyclist fatalities slowed relative to that of pedestrians in the mid 1990's.



lit said:


> He's not saying they are stupid, he is just saying people are being conned into thinking cycling is dangerous when it isn't.



Yes and that it sends out the wrong message to would be cyclist, personally I would like to see more people get on their bikes and I against anything which causes a barrier to that, such as negative images of cycling.

It is very odd that in all forms of motor sport helmets are worn, but no one uses this as an argument that motorist should wear helmets, even though the rate of head injury is far higher (per Km traveled) than cyclist. Therefore anyone who says cyclist should wear helmets for safety and doesn't wear a motoring helmet while traveling in a car, is either being hypocritical or is ignorant of the facts.


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## Andy OC (26 Oct 2009)

Well I made it there and back alive!
Thanks everyone for your advice and suggestions, very much appreciated! I must say I was very pleasantly surprised by night cycling. 
I found my £60 quid Cat Eyes were more than up to the task of illuminating the road ahead (at least at my somewhat steady 12mph!) which was a nice surprise. In retrospect, +1 for the helmet mounted light - I didn't get one in time, and I agree it would have been useful for spotting signposts et&c. 

I set off around 4pm from Newcastle and despite early evening commuter traffic found it a very enjoyable cycle through almost to Darlington, when I took a silly wrong turning and ended up in the back lanes of Stillington Racecourse. In the end I had to knock on some poor chaps door and ask him directions. Very obliging though he was I couldn't help but feel a tad embarrassed. 
Had a cuppa in Darlington railway station and set off to Northallerton. Another badly signposted junction (honestly!) had me heading up what felt like a mountainside for six or seven miles before ending up on the Northbound A19. An almost direct backtrack and I found the road to Ripon via Bedale. All in all it cost me about 30 miles.
At Bedale service station I stopped for a break, food and drink, and the very kind attendant bought me a cup of coffee which, considering I hadn't seen a soul for an good hour, I thought very good of him. 
From then it was a straight run through Ripon and Harrogate and up to Leeds Bradford Airport, which is a cruel, seemingly endless bank. If I do it again I'd add ten more miles to avoid that bank without a shadow of a doubt. 
Despite the weather, which got torrential at times, what a satisfying feeling to eventually arrive in Bradford for breakfast! Very pleased I 'risked' a night cycle, and thanks to everyone for the advice. 

Cheers
Andy


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## Fab Foodie (26 Oct 2009)

Well done Andy! Not without it's navigational and metereological challenges it seems but glad you enjoyed the experience.
I went out for my first night ride for weeks last night, nice clear but warmish evening with good visibilty of the moon and stars... until around April aver 90% of my riding will now be at night... Fabulous!


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## Fab Foodie (26 Oct 2009)

HJ, Lit, Arch... please take the pedantic and tedious helmet debate elsewhere (OK I'm guilty of a couple brief comments and hoped it would go away). This is a new posters thread on an interesting topic with a lot of valuable advice. Start a thread elsewhere on helmets if it's that important, the debate's been done to death frankly, there are never winners, just differing opinions.


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## Arch (27 Oct 2009)

HJ said:


> *If your Mum is worried about you why not take some time to explain to her that cycling is not dangerous and you really don't need one.* She probable cycled when she was younger, ask her did she wear then, did she make you wear one when you wear a child? The death rate on the roads for cyclist and pedestrians has droped steadily over the last 30 years, although the rate of decline in cyclist fatalities slowed relative to that of pedestrians in the mid 1990's.



Ok, apologies, this is absolutely my last word on this. 

HJ, you haven't met my Mum. The only way to stop her worrying about me cycling is not to tell her I'm doing it!

As a matter of fact, she cycled for a little while a few years ago, when I got her a bike. She lost confidence when she came off on a cattle grid and broke her wrist. And no, she wouldn't dream of wearing a helmet! But Mums ain't always logical. If I'm not home, sh rings my mobile to find out where I am. But can I convince her to have her mobile on at any time except when she's making a call, so I can check where she is?

Anyway, well done Andy, that's an epic! Sounds like you're ready for a FNRttC. I'd like to do one one day. I just mustn't tell my Mum in advance...


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## beachcaster (30 Oct 2009)

*really*



lit said:


> Helmets just give you the illusion of safety, most people who wear helmets aren't confident riders.



Like those riders I have seen in the tour fe france??

barry


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## HJ (30 Oct 2009)

beachcaster said:


> Like those riders I have seen in the tour fe france??
> 
> barry



Do you wear a helmet when travelling in a car? All the F1 drivers do. Travelling in a car you are more at risk of head injury that cycling on the road, have a look a the road accident figures...


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## Arch (30 Oct 2009)

Come on, come on, truce now...


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## Fab Foodie (30 Oct 2009)

Jeez, it's like watching a moth and a lightbulb...


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## Arch (30 Oct 2009)

Fab Foodie said:


> Jeez, it's like watching a moth and a lightbulb...



Should Moths Wear Helmets?


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## Fab Foodie (30 Oct 2009)

Arch said:


> Should Moths Wear Helmets?



Them that see fit bang their heads against brick walls round here should


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## HJ (30 Oct 2009)




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## Telemark (30 Oct 2009)

Fab Foodie said:


> Jeez, it's like watching a moth and a lightbulb...



or a bull and a red rag?  

Back on topic - night cycling with good lights to see by (and be seen), on a country road in the middle of nowhere, possibly with a full moon (ok then the lights might just distract from the views a wee bit) is absolutely magical .. everybody should try that at least once 

T


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## Fab Foodie (30 Oct 2009)

I love the serenity of late night cycling in both town and country. A full nightride is a thing of wonder.


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