# Dipping a toe



## mythste (17 Feb 2016)

I love road riding, it has my heart and I like nothing more than looking at how many miles I've clocked up after a week of commuting and a Sunday morning dash.

However, it's a grind sometimes, and circumstances (Lady Mythste having to work weekends for the foreseeable future) mean i'm going to have 5-6 hours to kill weekend afternoons.

So I have 2 questions, I want to look at a second hand mountain bike to cut my teeth on. Hopefully not literally. I have £3-400 to spend and have no issues going second hand. What's important and what isn't? I have no issues buying something with a good old frame and upgrading components as and when I decide I'm into it. I think I want a hardtail. 

Secondly, I don't drive. what are the chances of me actually getting some decent off-road riding in via train in the northwest? I don't mind getting on a train for an hour, putting a few hours in somewhere, and getting the train home again at the end.

Any and all advice appreciated!

Thanks!

Stephen


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## HarryTheDog (17 Feb 2016)

Bit hard to say what is important to you, a experienced MTBer may immediately state things like
It has to be a 26 inch wheel size or 27.5 or 29 inch
Then ok I want 100mm of fork travel or 120 mm or 130mm, then the forks must be Fox or Rock shox etc.
Then gearing must be 1x11 or 2 x 10 or 3 x 9 etc and a minimum standard of slx etc. ( my preference would be 2 x 11)
Brakes must be hydraulic discs, not mechanical and not V-type etc.

When it comes to secondhand I have set things I want in my head then had a look around and gone for what I thought was a good deal.
I usually see if the bike I am looking at has a review on bikeradar or another site to see what others think.

There are a lot of views on wheel size, 26 inch more manouverable , but does not soak up the bumps so well, 29 inch less maouverable but faster on the ascents and flats. 27.5 in the middle etc.

depending on how rough you are going 100mm of fork travel is enough for most. Fork make some people will only use Fox or Rock Shox. I have Manitou as they were the lightest at the time, I am a very un-sensitive MTB rider and can hardly tell the difference between a 500 quid set of forks and a 100 quid set. If you are not going over that technical terrain you could get away with any old fork, though for me it Must have lockout, ie turn suspension off.
I am sure people will have other views on what is important.


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## mythste (17 Feb 2016)

HarryTheDog said:


> Bit hard to say what is important to you, a experienced MTBer may immediately state things like
> It has to be a 26 inch wheel size or 27.5 or 29 inch
> Then ok I want 100mm of fork travel or 120 mm or 130mm, then the forks must be Fox or Rock shox etc.
> Then gearing must be 1x11 or 2 x 10 or 3 x 9 etc and a minimum standard of slx etc. ( my preference would be 2 x 11)
> ...



Thats surprisingly useful - thanks!

I'm not going to be fussing over "minor" issues like fork travel and what not. I suppose I'm more interested in if anyone has any major do's or don'ts. What sort of groupset can I expect for that price etc.


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## Levo-Lon (17 Feb 2016)

Good reviews and a good starter bike..13.7kg which is ok for 350 quid bike
6061 frame truvative crankset and rockshox xc28 budget fork, shimano disc brakes and ok tyres..3x9 gears which is great for steep stuff and flat out speed..plus deore mech which is good for such a budget bike
abuse it and if you like mtb ..buy a quality bike next year..

the mbuk review says it all..brilliant

http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/calibre-two-two-alloy-hardtail-mountain-bike-p275612


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## HarryTheDog (17 Feb 2016)

@mythste MTB finshing kit tends to a mish mash of lots of manufacturers and not many stick to a complete groupset. The first thing I would decide on is what type of gears do you want. I used to race Xc and the racing snakes tended to argue about having either 2 x10 or 1 x 10 ( 1 x 10 ie not to want a front derailluer) in my day, what would be 1x 11 or 2 x11 nowadays. 
I am an oldie so want as big of a spread of gears as possible ie 2 x11. My current bike which is over 6rs old is a 3x9 which is one to many gear combinations up front for me to think about and usually cocks itself up with a missed gear change somewhere along the ride.


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## mythste (17 Feb 2016)

meta lon said:


> Good reviews and a good starter bike..13.7kg which is ok for 350 quid bike
> 6061 frame truvative crankset and rockshox xc28 budget fork, shimano disc brakes and ok tyres..3x9 gears which is great for steep stuff and flat out speed..plus deore mech which is good for such a budget bike
> abuse it and if you like mtb ..buy a quality bike next year..
> 
> http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/calibre-two-two-alloy-hardtail-mountain-bike-p275612



I think I'd rather go second hand for two main reasons;

1. bit more for my money. I'm pretty handy with a spanner so dont mind doing maintenence
2. If I find out for whatever reason it's really not for me or its too difficult to find fun places to ride I won't have lost too much in resale

Thanks though!


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## mythste (17 Feb 2016)

HarryTheDog said:


> @mythste MTB finshing kit tends to a mish mash of lots of manufacturers and not many stick to a complete groupset. The first thing I would decide on is what type of gears do you want. I used to race Xc and the racing snakes tended to argue about having either 2 x10 or 1 x 10 ( 1 x 10 ie not to want a front derailluer) in my day, what would be 1x 11 or 2 x11 nowadays.
> I am an oldie so want as big of a spread of gears as possible ie 2 x11. My current bike which is over 6rs old is a 3x9 which is one to many gear combinations up front for me to think about and usually cocks itself up with a missed gear change somewhere along the ride.



Good point, I certainly couldnt be dealing with a triple. I like a good climb so I suppose 2x would be a good starting point. Starting to build a picture in my head!


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## mythste (17 Feb 2016)

HarryTheDog said:


> depending on how rough you are going 100mm of fork travel is enough for most. Fork make some people will only use Fox or Rock Shox. I have Manitou as they were the lightest at the time, I am a very un-sensitive MTB rider and can hardly tell the difference between a 500 quid set of forks and a 100 quid set. If you are not going over that technical terrain you could get away with any old fork, though for me it Must have lockout, ie turn suspension off.
> I am sure people will have other views on what is important.



RE forks, A lot of the bikes im looking at that come in under budget have Rockshox, I guess I'm safe in those?

Do I remember people saying avoid suntour like the plague? Have I made that up?


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## HarryTheDog (17 Feb 2016)

The thing with secondhand MTB bikes the thing that is most likely to need service/repair is the forks, so be aware of that and ask when they were last serviced.Most manufacturers recommend they are serviced every year, some people dont bother as it costs. My secondhand Scott scale despite supoosedly having just been serviced ( shop demo bike) originally came with rockshox rebas ( I think they were Reba) within months they were leaking air. I put them in for service and apparently the internals were so scratched they leaked and were virtually un-repairable. But Rockshox, Fox or Marzochi seem to be the most common decent forks. I have Manitous which aren't that common but are decent, mine are super light RCD's, usually reviewers complain they flex but I am small and have not been a problem for me.
Yes Suntour seem to be be on a lot of budget bikes and "serious" MTBers look down their noses at them. Depends if you are going off massive drop-offs, taking air at every opportunity and bombing it through rock gardens.


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## bikeman66 (17 Feb 2016)

I'll bet there are quite a few second hand MTB's for sale near you. Personally, wouldn't go full suspension, as bearings and bushes may be an issue! A full set of these can really add up. I find my hard tail gets me everywhere I want to go without the weight and maintenance issues a full sus brings.

Would definitely lean towards hydraulic discs, as they can't be beaten in the mud and grime. Virtually maintenance free, and ample braking power on tap.

Most quality frames have anyway, but make sure it has a replaceable derailleur hanger. I've never broken mine, but have ridden with a couple of guys who have!!

If you have a mate who knows a bit about mountain bikes it is a sound idea to have him with you if you're looking second hand. All the basics of buying a used road bike apply. Make sure the bottom bracket feels OK by grabbing the cranks and wobbling them side to side. Any play, look deeper. Make sure the bars turn freely, but with no free play or grinding in the headset. If the bike has hydraulic discs, look for possible tell-tale signs of fluid leakage around the calipers or levers. Wheels run OK, without play in the hubs? Shifters work OK, and everything indexes satisfactorily? Definitely make sure any suspension forks are in good nick, as an overhaul can get quite costly.

If the adverts on my local bike buying Facebook group are any yardstick, I reckon you could get yourself a cracking 3-4 year old hard tail for the money you are looking to spend.

Once you've got the bike, just get out and open up another dimension to your cycling. I've had MTB's for years, and only fairly recently got myself back on to road bikes too. Love both types of riding, but the peace of a traffic free bridleway on a warm summer evening sure takes a bit of beating!

If you ever get as far as the Isle of Wight on a mountainbike, look me up. I'll be pleased to show you around some of the 240 miles of bridleways we've got down here!

Good luck with finding the bike.........you'll love it out there!


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## bikeman66 (17 Feb 2016)

HarryTheDog said:


> The thing with secondhand MTB bikes the thing that is most likely to need service/repair is the forks, so be aware of that and ask when they were last serviced.Most manufacturers recommend they are serviced every year, some people dont bother as it costs. My secondhand Scott scale despite supoosedly having just been serviced ( shop demo bike) originally came with rockshox rebas ( I think they were Reba) within months they were leaking air. I put them in for service and apparently the internals were so scratched they leaked and were virtually un-repairable. But Rockshox, Fox or Marzochi seem to be the most common decent forks. I have Manitous which aren't that common but are decent, mine are super light RCD's, usually reviewers complain they flex but I am small and have not been a problem for me.
> Yes Suntour seem to be be on a lot of budget bikes and "serious" MTBers look down their noses at them. Depends if you are going off massive drop-offs, taking air at every opportunity and bombing it through rock gardens.


I believe Marzocchi forks are no more!! Shame, as they did actually make some pretty decent stuff. Fox forks are well regarded by many, but in all honesty I've always been happy with my RockShox, so I suppose it's a case of stick with what you know. Had a Scale 20, years ago (2006 I think). Loved it. In fact, love Scott's full stop!


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## mythste (18 Feb 2016)

bikeman66 said:


> I'll bet there are quite a few second hand MTB's for sale near you. Personally, wouldn't go full suspension, as bearings and bushes may be an issue! A full set of these can really add up. I find my hard tail gets me everywhere I want to go without the weight and maintenance issues a full sus brings.
> 
> Would definitely lean towards hydraulic discs, as they can't be beaten in the mud and grime. Virtually maintenance free, and ample braking power on tap.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the super comprehensive reply! The mech hanger point is one I would have missed completely and you're right, very important. 

I've seen a couple of on-one imbreds around my price range that look nice, and also a Genesis Core 50 that I've taken a shine too but I'm not 100% convinced on the seller. I'll keep you all in the loop and can't tell you how much I appreciate the advice so far! 

Now, let's tell the Mrs...


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## MikeW-71 (18 Feb 2016)

mythste said:


> RE forks, A lot of the bikes im looking at that come in under budget have Rockshox, I guess I'm safe in those?
> 
> Do I remember people saying avoid suntour like the plague? Have I made that up?


The basic Suntour forks are extremely cheap. They are OK when they're brand new, and if you're not going over very rough/technical terrain, they'd be fine. Give them some punishment and they just give up and they'll never be the same again.

I did that with mine, and while they show no sign of actually breaking, they pretty much stopped working. I replaced them with a RockShox XC32 air fork, one of the cheapest ones, which is immensely better. If you can get a bike with any RockShox fork, you're at a far better starting point than Suntour.

To throw a spanner in that, the Suntour Raidon and Epicon forks are (I'm told) actually decent air forks.

Otherwise, my advice would be the same as above. Disc brakes are a must, preferably hydraulic. After you've felt their performance, you'll want them on your road bike


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## mythste (18 Feb 2016)

MikeW-71 said:


> The basic Suntour forks are extremely cheap. They are OK when they're brand new, and if you're not going over very rough/technical terrain, they'd be fine. Give them some punishment and they just give up and they'll never be the same again.
> 
> I did that with mine, and while they show no sign of actually breaking, they pretty much stopped working. I replaced them with a RockShox XC32 air fork, one of the cheapest ones, which is immensely better. If you can get a bike with any RockShox fork, you're at a far better starting point than Suntour.
> 
> ...



Thanks for that!

I'm going to aim for rock shocks for sure. I am going to try for trails and want something that'll see me safely through my progression. Buy cheap buy twice etc. 

I've got HY/RD on my roadie already. Wouldn't go back to rim brakes, don't worry!


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## Jody (18 Feb 2016)

Definately second hand if i had that kind if budget. Just been having a look and there are some cracking bargains. GT Zaskar on ebay for 350 as an example lot number 161975598682. Few years old, nice upgrades, solid bike, light and fun to ride. 

If your ok with spanners it's not too hard to do oil services on forks. Stripping the dampers is a bit more complex but still possible at home with the right setup. Watch for ANY wear or scratches on the stanchions as this is pretty terminal for the forks. They will still work but suffer from premature wear on the bushes and oil leaks.


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## rovers1875 (8 Mar 2016)

I have just bought one of these Voodoo Bizango (£430 second hand, only only one month old) and my first impressions are good. ( I'm in similar position ie roadie, and felt like having the odd bimble off road). Good luck with whatever you go for


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## fossyant (8 Mar 2016)

Be a MAN and get a rigid 90's MTB.

They are a hoot. They do stop us silly roadies getting too silly. An old Skool MTB does climb like a rat in a drain pipe with a roadie on it, but all that time you've gained waiting for the MTB lot uphill will be lost down hill in buckets.

I love my old Diamond Back Ascent. LX and XT equipped and it's done some stupid stuff, and even bent a car. Built out of Tange CroMo girders.


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## Motozulu (10 Mar 2016)

I loved my SS rigid - just stripped it though and selling off the bits as it was getting too hard on the joints - climbed like billy-o.


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## bikeman66 (13 Mar 2016)

fossyant said:


> Be a MAN and get a rigid 90's MTB.
> 
> They are a hoot. They do stop us silly roadies getting too silly. An old Skool MTB does climb like a rat in a drain pipe with a roadie on it, but all that time you've gained waiting for the MTB lot uphill will be lost down hill in buckets.
> 
> ...


Fantastic looking bike! Still love my 1993 rigid Kona Lava Dome MTB. Doesn't get ridden quite so much these days, but I could never part with it. Nostalgia on wheels! 

Certainly climbs like a mountain goat........and I managed 52mph down Butser Hill (basically a massive grassy descent on the South Downs Way). Straight bladed Project Two forks weren't the most forgiving in terms of comfort, and I was a bit beaten up by the time we reached Beachy Head, but what a machine.

Great to see your Diamond Back in such good nick!


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## bikeman66 (20 Mar 2016)

fossyant said:


> Be a MAN and get a rigid 90's MTB.
> 
> They are a hoot. They do stop us silly roadies getting too silly. An old Skool MTB does climb like a rat in a drain pipe with a roadie on it, but all that time you've gained waiting for the MTB lot uphill will be lost down hill in buckets.
> 
> ...


Fossyant. So impressed was I, with your Diamond Back, that I had to go and dig out a picture of my old Kona Lava Dome.

It's had a few mods over the years, but never really just for the sake of it. Mainly just replaced bits and pieces when they were worn out with tarty stuff. XTR V brakes with Avid Speed Dial levers replaced the original canti's, Middleburn chainrings were some of my favourites, and the "Hardcote" inner was a revelation. Merlin Cycles built me a pair of proper sexy wheels with Mavic rims on Hope hubs, complete with tarty red nipples. Would have loved to have kept the original thumb shifters, but an upgrade to 8 speed meant a change to Sachs Wavey Shifters.

Ridden thousands of miles on this thing, and 99.9% of them were pure joy........going over the bars during a race, straight in to a bed of stinging nettles being the exception!

Race you on the Diamond Back any time!!!


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## fossyant (20 Mar 2016)

bikeman66 said:


> Fossyant. So impressed was I, with your Diamond Back, that I had to go and dig out a picture of my old Kona Lava Dome.
> 
> It's had a few mods over the years, but never really just for the sake of it. Mainly just replaced bits and pieces when they were worn out with tarty stuff. XTR V brakes with Avid Speed Dial levers replaced the original canti's, Middleburn chainrings were some of my favourites, and the "Hardcote" inner was a revelation. Merlin Cycles built me a pair of proper sexy wheels with Mavic rims on Hope hubs, complete with tarty red nipples. Would have loved to have kept the original thumb shifters, but an upgrade to 8 speed meant a change to Sachs Wavey Shifters.
> 
> ...



A proper bike.


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## ozboz (27 Mar 2016)

I was lucky , got this GT XCR idrive for £120 from a LBS , 1997 bike , had it powder coated and lots of other stuff , had loads of fun on it , it had been a trade in . Worth a look at the bike shops


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## mythste (19 Oct 2016)

Right! I never actually got round to this because I somehow convinced myself into getting another road bike...

Anyyyyyway, There's some terrible part of me that wants to go and get muddy again. I've had to revise my budget to £250 so definitely second hand now.

Any of you with a keen eye spotted anything that might suit?


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## ChrisEyles (19 Oct 2016)

I like looking for mountain bikes on ebay  

Here's one that caught my eye in your area: 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SCOTT-MOU...931336?hash=item3d2849d108:g:Z6EAAOSwI-BWLNo~

looks pretty nice to me, and well within budget!

There's also this which looked great at first glance but reading the blurb sounds like it is probably stolen! Must go tonight indeed... Gotta love ebay.... 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2004-kona...620203?hash=item4d4d22fc2b:g:hQ0AAOSwCGVX98r3


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## Jody (20 Oct 2016)

mythste said:


> Any of you with a keen eye spotted anything that might suit?



I would say something like this GT below. Alloy frame, hyraulic discs etc. Should ride well and within budget

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Gt-avalan...989284?hash=item2374a77e64:g:EFYAAOSwFdtX0cMs


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## mythste (20 Oct 2016)

Something about those GT frames doesnt talk to me... I think I prefer a more XC looking setup (but hey, It's not like I can be too picky at my price point)

I've come across a couple of 4-5 year old Genesis Core models that really appeal to me, The only problem seems to be that they are running Suntour forks which puts me off. Would it be reasonable to try something with Suntour forks with a view to upgrading if I take a liking to being off road?

What would be the cost of a tiagra/105 equivalent fork (if that makes sense!)


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## mythste (20 Oct 2016)

At the top of my budget, but can anyone see anything drastically wrong with this?

http://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/2072787/


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## Jody (20 Oct 2016)

mythste said:


> At the top of my budget, but can anyone see anything drastically wrong with this?http://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/2072787/





mythste said:


> I think I prefer a more XC looking setup (but hey, It's not like I can be too picky at my price point)



Bit of a contradiction. The Reign is almost a DH bike and far from being an XC machine. It won't be heavy but isn't going to be a light bike and has 6"+ suspension front and rear so will bog down a bit when climbing. My mate has one and its a good bike, albeit a newer model. A Giant Anthem is an XC full suss (see my avatar pic). The running order from XC to DH for Giant is Anthem 4">Trance 5">Reign 6"> Glory 8"

The GT posted was a do it all XC hardtail that won't weigh too much and is within budget but only you will know what you want out of it.



mythste said:


> Would it be reasonable to try something with Suntour forks with a view to upgrading if I take a liking to being off road?
> What would be the cost of a tiagra/105 equivalent fork (if that makes sense!)



It makes sense but I don't know road tranmission hierarchy. You can swap a fork for what ever suits your budget and needs aslong as its roughly the same travel and steerer size/length. Too much of an increase in travel will alter the geometry, Normally you can sway approx 30mm without having too much of an effect on its handling. There is a lot too think about with forks from basic make/model, spring forks through to air, damping control, lock outs etc.


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## Nigeyy (20 Oct 2016)

First thing with that budget is very easy: unless somehow you stumble upon a bargain of the century, don't bother with full suspension. You are only likely to get a very heavy pogo stick with two wheels. 

The next question is, do you want front shocks? If you do, cross off bikes with 1 inch steerers -good suspension forks with 1 inch steerers are about non-existent and availability will get even worse. In fact, there's also a case to be made that 1 1/8 steerers are eventually going to be going that way as well, as tapered steerers are now far more common. However, based on your budget that may well not be a concern and there are still many great forks with straight 1 1/8 steerers -just so long as you are aware that long term that may cause an issue.

So you don't want suspension? The good news is that you should be able to find a really good quality mtb for that money. If you are pretty sure of that, then it really doesn't matter what kind of steerer diameter you have.

Are you bothered about wheel size? If you are, chances are you'll find bigger sized wheel bikes will be more expensive (at least that's the way it is over here).

Lastly, no matter what you buy, upgrade costs will almost always be uneconomical in comparison to spending a little more to get that bike that may have that component on!

Oh and the north west....over a 2 day train ride away


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## Crackle (20 Oct 2016)

You should be able to pick up a Boardman for under 300. They too had Suntour forks but they used the Radon ones which were at least usable.


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## mythste (20 Oct 2016)

So far my list of "must haves" comprises of;

- Front suspension
- Hydraulic Disks
- At least Deore drivetrain
- Don't really want a 29er

So I'm pretty open to anything other than that. I'm getting excited and nervous at the same time about picking up a higher spec older model, to find the forks have had it or something, hence looking at "worst case" replacement costs.


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## Jody (20 Oct 2016)

Crackle said:


> You should be able to pick up a Boardman for under 300. They too had Suntour forks but they used the Radon ones which were at least usable.



£400 ono on a local Facebook MTB/riders group. 12 months old and ticks all boxes.


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## Jody (20 Oct 2016)

Don't think anyone has asked the important question of how tall are you?


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## mythste (20 Oct 2016)

5'8 - Distinctly average! I think that puts me about 17-18" frame?


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## Jody (20 Oct 2016)

That opens up a lot of doors. The above is a medium and will give you some idea of what you can find given the time and location. It won't need upgrading and is a hell of a bike for £400


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## Nigeyy (20 Oct 2016)

Being pedantic, can I just throw out one thing.... hydraulic brakes. Being a bit nit picky here but I'd say just "good" disc brakes. There are some hydraulic brakes out there that certainly don't seem well reviewed or offer easy mainenance and reliability, similarly there are bad reviews for mechanicals. I'd say good hydraulics beat good mechanicals, but poor hydraulics don't beat good mechanicals (only had experience with Avid BB7s which aren't as good as my hydraulic brakes, but they are still reasonable.)

OK, pedantry finished..


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## mythste (21 Oct 2016)

Nigeyy said:


> Being pedantic, can I just throw out one thing.... hydraulic brakes. Being a bit nit picky here but I'd say just "good" disc brakes. There are some hydraulic brakes out there that certainly don't seem well reviewed or offer easy mainenance and reliability, similarly there are bad reviews for mechanicals. I'd say good hydraulics beat good mechanicals, but poor hydraulics don't beat good mechanicals (only had experience with Avid BB7s which aren't as good as my hydraulic brakes, but they are still reasonable.)
> 
> OK, pedantry finished..



That's a good and interesting point. 

Most of the older models I'm looking at have Deore or Avid Juicy brakes, whilst the newer ones have some relatively unbranded shimano (M3-something?) options on them. I certainly wouldnt shoot for something I don't recognise.


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## Jody (21 Oct 2016)

mythste said:


> Most of the older models I'm looking at have Deore or Avid Juicy brakes, whilst the newer ones have some relatively unbranded shimano (M3-something?) options on them. I certainly wouldnt shoot for something I don't recognise.



Without wanting to sound negative at £250ish you are going to have to take the rough with the smooth. A decent set of hydraulic brakes will set you back £70-80+ on their own.

You buy an older bike and it will need maintenance and upgrading as/when you see fit. Personally I would push your budget a little bit to buy something that suits and won't need money throwing at it or upgrading.


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## mythste (21 Oct 2016)

Jody said:


> Without wanting to sound negative at £250ish you are going to have to take the rough with the smooth. A decent set of hydraulic brakes will set you back £70-80+ on their own.
> 
> You buy an older bike and it will need maintenance and upgrading as/when you see fit. Personally I would push your budget a little bit to buy something that suits and won't need money throwing at it or upgrading.



I'm going to be pulling the trigger on something next weekend, because if I don't I fear I never will. It's such a fine line working out how much to spend on something I might simply not enjoy. done some sums and could *mayyyybe* stretch to £400 if something really caught my attention.

Maybe!


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## Nibor (21 Oct 2016)

If you are on Facebook look for Rivington MTB Bike Buy and Sell there are always some good ones on there and you caoul;s always post a wanted post. 
Also Rivington is a great area for off road riding and not far from Horwich which is on the main line from Mancehester..
Apparently Clayton Vale is good and is accessable from the national cycling centre.


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## Jody (21 Oct 2016)

mythste said:


> I'm going to be pulling the trigger on something next weekend, because if I don't I fear I never will. It's such a fine line working out how much to spend on something



I know the feeling. As you say its a fine line especially with bikes as you can keep spending well into the 000's and still not sure you will get the best for your money.


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## mythste (21 Oct 2016)

Nibor said:


> If you are on Facebook look for Rivington MTB Bike Buy and Sell there are always some good ones on there and you caoul;s always post a wanted post.
> Also Rivington is a great area for off road riding and not far from Horwich which is on the main line from Mancehester..
> Apparently Clayton Vale is good and is accessable from the national cycling centre.



Clayton Vale will be my first port of call. Plenty of people about in all weathers for when I break all of my bones!


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## Crackle (21 Oct 2016)

If you're going towards 400quid a calibre two.two or a voodoo Bantu is in your budget new and you should easily pick up a good 2nd hand bike at that price range. There's 2nd hand Whytes, Genesis and Boardmans which would all do the trick, on ebay. Another idea is to ring up trail centres and see what they've got going 2nd hand ex-hire, which is not as ropey as it sounds. They often keep them for a season only, maintain them and sell them on cheap. llandegla and Delamere often have stuff they're flogging on.


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## mythste (21 Oct 2016)

Spotted an On One 456 Carbon, 1x10 Zee and Marzocchi 55TST fork for £400... Just running through the due diligence "is it nicked" checks now!


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## Nibor (21 Oct 2016)

A lot of bike should it pass the tests


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## mythste (24 Oct 2016)

Nibor said:


> A lot of bike should it pass the tests



I've no reason to suspect it is stolen, but I'm just not 100% convinced on the current owner and its also been resprayed (very well, and with full on-one livery) so I'm gonna pass on it. It's that gut instinct thing.

The good news is, I'm going to view a Santa Cruz Chameleon with Fox 120mm 32s 1x10 XT and XT wheels on Saturday. Getting a little bit excited now and can't wait to go and fall off it.


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## Nibor (26 Oct 2016)

mythste said:


> I've no reason to suspect it is stolen, but I'm just not 100% convinced on the current owner and its also been resprayed (very well, and with full on-one livery) so I'm gonna pass on it. It's that gut instinct thing.
> 
> The good news is, I'm going to view a Santa Cruz Chameleon with Fox 120mm 32s 1x10 XT and XT wheels on Saturday. Getting a little bit excited now and can't wait to go and fall off it.


The Santa Cruz is very exciting.


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## mythste (28 Oct 2016)

This is the bike I'm off to see tomorrow, anything I should be obviously looking for? I'll do the usual roadie checks, true wheels, sturdy BB etc. 

Any tips on telling if the fork is shagged?


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## Jody (28 Oct 2016)

I really do like that! With it being a MTB don't be surprised of the wheels have a little wobble on the rims. 

As for the forks. Ask him when they were last serviced, by who and if there is any evidence. Its an easy enough job to do at home so don't be too alarmed as long as he has used good quality or genuine fluid. Check stanchion wear (scratches and deterioration in colour), seals are in good condition, knocks to the lowers etc. Put the break on and wobble front to back but also turn the wheel 90 degrees and do the same. Listen/feel for any knocks or any visual play. Check compression/rebound knobs do their thing. Lastly take it for a spin and do the car park bounce, try and get as much travel as you can but try and get the forks to top out on the way back. They wont top out but its more about trying to get the forks to return to the top (pull up like a little wheelie back into the sag portion of travel) without making any noise. Whilst doing this hit the brakes hard at speed (careful if you are not used to it) to make sure they don't knock under braking. 

Hope it goes well for you.


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## mythste (28 Oct 2016)

Jody said:


> I really do like that! With it being a MTB don't be surprised of the wheels have a little wobble on the rims.
> 
> As for the forks. Ask him when they were last serviced, by who and if there is any evidence. Its an easy enough job to do at home so don't be too alarmed as long as he has used good quality or genuine fluid. Check stanchion wear (scratches and deterioration in colour), seals are in good condition, knocks to the lowers etc. Put the break on and wobble front to back but also turn the wheel 90 degrees and do the same. Listen/feel for any knocks or any visual play. Check compression/rebound knobs do their thing. Lastly take it for a spin and do the car park bounce, try and get as much travel as you can but try and get the forks to top out on the way back. They wont top out but its more about trying to get the forks to return to the top (pull up like a little wheelie back into the sag portion of travel) without making any noise. Whilst doing this hit the brakes hard at speed (careful if you are not used to it) to make sure they don't knock under braking.
> 
> Hope it goes well for you.



She's a bit of a looker isn't she! In a wonderfully dirty way. 

That seems like good and logical advice. I really appreciate your help and I'll report back - hopefully with good news!


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## mythste (30 Oct 2016)

Got it!

Went over yesterday to see a the fella selling it. Lovely chap in fact. Only issue seemed to be that the brakes seemed to be, well, interesting. Almost no movement at the levers, they worked, but really needed a good bleed. So I got a little money off and went and bought a bleed kit - not as difficult as some make out!

Went up to Clayton Vale this afternoon with a guy who knows his stuff and it really is a whole different, and terrifying ball game to road riding isn't it...

I was a bit too excited and nervous to pay too much attention to what was actually going on, but the fork seems great, lockout is rock solid, and the rebound etc all seems very responsive. I think I set it a bit too slow for the very rocky little trails around clayton but my lack of ability was certainly the limiting factor. Bars are fashionably wide, not sure how I feel about them but we'll see.


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## Crackle (30 Oct 2016)

That's a beast.


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## mythste (30 Oct 2016)

Crackle said:


> That's a beast.



Thanks! Made the error of trying to use those semi-spd pedals with flats as I didn't know how comfortable I'd be. Error. Slipping all over the place. Back to the clips I know and love next time.


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## ChrisEyles (30 Oct 2016)

Nice! Bet you'll have a lot of fun times on that one


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## Crackle (30 Oct 2016)

mythste said:


> Thanks! Made the error of trying to use those semi-spd pedals with flats as I didn't know how comfortable I'd be. Error. Slipping all over the place. Back to the clips I know and love next time.


I ride flats but it varies amongst mtn bikers. Grippy flats and normally grippy outdoor boots are good enough for me. I've even ridden in my 4 season mountaineering boots. The trick to my feet not coming off is I don't spend all that much time on the saddle over the rough stuff. You might find your preferences change as you do more.


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## ChrisEyles (30 Oct 2016)

Wellgo v8 copies are so cheap (and good!) they're worth a go to see how you get on with them. I use a pair with walking boots or trainer type shoes and they're extremely grippy. They do hurt like a bastard if/when you slip off them though (learning to bunny hop was fun)!


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## mythste (30 Oct 2016)

I've done some research about the clips/flats convo and it's a topic I almost don't want to bring up 

I've ridden exclusively in clips on the road for the last 3 years and although a pair of skate trainers and those pedals pictured above probably aren't the best indication I really did feel well off balance. I think I'm going to see how I feel with the clips next time and work from there. I did have one moment where I missed the line on a bern today and got a foot out just in time - I'd have been arse over in clips! 

As my friend was shouting at the time - "LEAN AND LOW LAD!"


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## Jody (31 Oct 2016)

First of all well done for upping your budget and getting something that will be a joy to learn on. Looks like a cracking bike for the money. Looked after it will fetch nearly as much as it cost in the event you don't like MTBing. I think you hit the sweet spot without going overboard on your first foray into off roading.



mythste said:


> So I got a little money off and went and bought a bleed kit - not as difficult as some make out!



Depends what make and model. Some can be interesting to get right.



mythste said:


> Went up to Clayton Vale this afternoon with a guy who knows his stuff and it really is a whole different, and terrifying ball game to road riding isn't it...



Not sure about terrifying but I know where you are coming from. Iv'e never really done any road riding other than when I stick the slick wheels on my FS. For me road riding is OK for fiteness and keeping your legs spinning in winter but it bores the sh*t out of me



mythste said:


> I was a bit too excited and nervous to pay too much attention to what was actually going on, but the fork seems great, lockout is rock solid, and the rebound etc all seems very responsive. I think I set it a bit too slow for the very rocky little trails around clayton but my lack of ability was certainly the limiting factor. Bars are fashionably wide, not sure how I feel about them but we'll see.]



Ask your friend if he can help you set the forks up or check some online guides to fine tune them. It will pay dividends for your confidence when they are doing their job well.

What width are the bars? Are they stupid wide or just wider than you are used to on the road.



mythste said:


> I've done some research about the clips/flats convo and it's a topic I almost don't want to bring up



Its horses for courses but I would suggest doing a few rides on flats just to get your technique right and then switch back to SPD's


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## mythste (31 Oct 2016)

Thanks @Jody I'm glad I went this route as well. I'm a big believer that having a bike you actually want to ride is important! Even if it does mean I'm on the baked bean diet for the foreseeable 

The brakes are Avid Elixir 5. The rear is screaming like a banshee at the moment but both are comfortably operated with one finger, which youtube tells me is important. 

I've just googled, and the bars are these - http://www.on-one.co.uk/i/q/HBELGUANB/el-guapo-ancho-b-handlebar - which I think fall into the "stupid wide" catagory. I'll see how I get on, but my elbow and shoulders are a little sore today and I'm not sure if that's exasperated by the width.

The trails where slimy muddy rocks, and I'm so used to aiming for flat ground on the roadie I found myself aiming for the edge of the trail, when the going got rough. Didn't take too long to realise that was a stupid idea and the bike was more than capable, and actually had far more grip, on the lumpy bits in the middle!


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## mythste (31 Oct 2016)

Also, does anyone fancy taking a newbie out somewhere accessible via train from Manchester?


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## Crackle (31 Oct 2016)

mythste said:


> I've just googled, and the bars are these - http://www.on-one.co.uk/i/q/HBELGUANB/el-guapo-ancho-b-handlebar - which I think fall into the "stupid wide" catagory. I'll see how I get on, but my elbow and shoulders are a little sore today and I'm not sure if that's exasperated by the width.


I think mine are 720. Superstar can be a source of good and cheap mtn bike components. I went through two stems and two different bars before I settled on the current combo.


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## Jody (31 Oct 2016)

mythste said:


> The brakes are Avid Elixir 5. The rear is screaming like a banshee at the moment but both are comfortably operated with one finger, which youtube tells me is important.
> 
> I've just googled, and the bars are these - http://www.on-one.co.uk/i/q/HBELGUANB/el-guapo-ancho-b-handlebar - which I think fall into the "stupid wide" catagory. I'll see how I get on, but my elbow and shoulders are a little sore today and I'm not sure if that's exasperated by the width.
> 
> The trails where slimy muddy rocks, and I'm so used to aiming for flat ground on the roadie I found myself aiming for the edge of the trail, when the going got rough. Didn't take too long to realise that was a stupid idea and the bike was more than capable, and actually had far more grip, on the lumpy bits in the middle!




Elixir 5’s are OK but you may want to change them in time if/when you start suffering any problems. Me and two mates had bikes with them and they all got binned off for Shimano. The difference between them both is night and day. Noise from them is fairly common and difficult to remove, known as the Avid “Turkey Gobble”. On a plus I have some unused Kevlar pads, plus some lightly used sintered and Kevlar if you want some FOC?

760’s are a fairly common size at the moment and not too extreme (800+). They may take some time to get used to but will give you a good amount of control. You could always experiment by moving the grips in and seeing what feels natural for you before cutting them down.

You will soon get used to picking a line.


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## mythste (31 Oct 2016)

Jody said:


> Elixir 5’s are OK but you may want to change them in time if/when you start suffering any problems. Me and two mates had bikes with them and they all got binned off for Shimano. The difference between them both is night and day. Noise from them is fairly common and difficult to remove, known as the Avid “Turkey Gobble”. On a plus I have some unused Kevlar pads, plus some lightly used sintered and Kevlar if you want some FOC?
> 
> 760’s are a fairly common size at the moment and not too extreme (800+). They may take some time to get used to but will give you a good amount of control. You could always experiment by moving the grips in and seeing what feels natural for you before cutting them down.
> 
> You will soon get used to picking a line.



I'd love to take you up on the pads, where are you based? I've replaced the front with SRAM sintered and they are silent. The rear ones seemed to have some life left so I've left them in, but they do sound like a freighter horn!

Can we talk tyres? It currently has Tubeless tyres on but they dont look particularly mud friendly to me. Is there a universally accepted "alright" winter tyre that won't cost the earth? These have plenty of life left so I'll keep them for summer riding. I'm not particularly fussed on Tubeless, especially for seasonal wheels.


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## Jody (31 Oct 2016)

I'm in Sheffield but postage is only a quid and I have no use for them any more.

Edit: What tyres are you using?


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## mythste (31 Oct 2016)

Crackle said:


> I think mine are 720. Superstar can be a source of good and cheap mtn bike components. I went through two stems and two different bars before I settled on the current combo.



I'm looking forward to starting to fettle. I have decided that this evening will be dedicated to learning how to wheelie/manual. Even if it does feel like im riding a harley with bars that wide


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## Jody (31 Oct 2016)

mythste said:


> I'm looking forward to starting to fettle. I have decided that ̶t̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶e̶v̶e̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶ the next few years will be dedicated to learning how to wheelie/manual. Even if it does feel like im riding a harley with bars that wide



FTFY and word of warning, buy some flats if you are learning this. Trust me!


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## mythste (31 Oct 2016)

Jody said:


> FTFY and word of warning, buy some flats if you are learning this. Trust me!



Oh for sure! The pedals that are on there at the moment I can ride in skate shoes as long as its dry, they're supposed to be spd and flat compatible but with all the mud and slime last night I'm aware I was asking lots.


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## mythste (31 Oct 2016)

Current tyres are Maxxis LUST Crossmax?


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## Jody (31 Oct 2016)

I'm not very good with tyres but would pick something as an alrounder and run them tubeless. Mud tyres have a lot of drag. The ones you have on seem quite close in tread pattern so might start to squirm around when it gets muddy.


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## Crackle (31 Oct 2016)

mythste said:


> I'm looking forward to starting to fettle. I have decided that this evening will be dedicated to learning how to wheelie/manual. Even if it does feel like im riding a harley with bars that wide


If you get that done in an evening you can teach me!

I can get the front end up long enough to clear something. I can wheelie briefly before I, fall off the back, fall out the side, dump the front. I'm sure I could wheelie a chopper all the way down the road once. As Jody says, you don't want to be clipped in for that.

Tyres, I use Nobby Nics. I don't find them too draggy on the road, certainly not in comparison to earlier tyres like my old WTB Velociraptors. WTB Vigilante's seem to be good tyres too. They both come in tubeless if you want to stay that way, which you might once you've got several thorn punctures at once.


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## mythste (31 Oct 2016)

Crackle said:


> If you get that done in an evening you can teach me!
> 
> I can get the front end up long enough to clear something. I can wheelie briefly before I, fall off the back, fall out the side, dump the front. I'm sure I could wheelie a chopper all the way down the road once. As Jody says, you don't want to be clipped in for that.
> 
> Tyres, I use Nobby Nics. I don't find them too draggy on the road, certainly not in comparison to earlier tyres like my old WTB Velociraptors. WTB Vigilante's seem to be good tyres too. They both come in tubeless if you want to stay that way, which you might once you've got several thorn punctures at once.



I've ordered some wellgo V8s. £12 posted I cant complain. I've always wanted to be able to bunny hop so I figured now is the time! I'd hate to be the guy with a nice new MTB beind accused of "spud hopping" in my clips! I'll keep the SPDs for XC if and when I decide to go down that route...

Is there much good riding around the wirral @Crackle ? I'm on the lookout for good spots now.


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## Jody (31 Oct 2016)

mythste said:


> Is there much good riding around the wirral @Crackle ? I'm on the lookout for good spots now.



Isn't there some kind of trail centre in Manchester? Clayton Vale possibly @fossyant might be able to advise.

PS nothing wrong with spud hopping as long as you clear the obstacle.


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## mythste (31 Oct 2016)

Jody said:


> Isn't there some kind of trail centre in Manchester? Clayton Vale possibly @fossyant might be able to advise.
> 
> PS nothing wrong with spud hopping as long as you clear the obstacle.



That's where I went yesterday  - It'll be the place I get the basics down, but I dont want to get complacent as I'm sure you could "learn" the routes there in an afternoon.


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## Crackle (31 Oct 2016)

mythste said:


> Is there much good riding around the wirral @Crackle ? I'm on the lookout for good spots now.


Nothing on the Wirral besides horse trails and leisure paths. I wish there where but I have to travel into North Wales or Delamere with Llandegla being my closest trail centre.


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## Jody (31 Oct 2016)

#facepalm Thought it sounded farmilliar when I was typing it


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## mythste (31 Oct 2016)

Crackle said:


> Nothing on the Wirral besides horse trails and leisure paths. I wish there where but I have to travel into North Wales or Delamere with Llandegla being my closest trail centre.



Llandegla seems to be 7 miles out from Wrexham rail station which seems reasonable to do (And downhill on the way back!)

If you ever fancy a slow Sunday with a newbie round there please, let me know!


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## Ciar (31 Oct 2016)

nice looking bike you have there, if you do keep on with the muddy side of riding, buy yourself one item and one item only.... a dropper post! honestly best thing ever ;-) either way have fun it's the best type of riding for me personally.


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## Crackle (31 Oct 2016)

mythste said:


> Llandegla seems to be 7 miles out from Wrexham rail station which seems reasonable to do (And downhill on the way back!)
> 
> If you ever fancy a slow Sunday with a newbie round there please, let me know!


I will. I haven't been at all this year so I'm not the most prolific mtn biker but this is the time of year I start going.


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## ChrisEyles (31 Oct 2016)

Haha, I'm with Crackle, if you can learn to manual and wheelie in a day you're doing better than me! Good news is a decent front wheel lift is often all you need to clear an obstacle or launch a drop off and land on both wheels together. 

If learning the "proper" American bunnyhop is taking ages (I'm still not even close after months and have pretty much given up) I find the English hop really useful (google/youtube for instructions... but it's basically just a case of squat down to preload the suspension and tyres, then explode/jump upwards lifting the back wheel with you with your feet) and I managed to get that down in a long afternoon's practice. 

Hope you enjoy your V8's as much as I do


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## mythste (1 Nov 2016)

ChrisEyles said:


> Haha, I'm with Crackle, if you can learn to manual and wheelie in a day you're doing better than me! Good news is a decent front wheel lift is often all you need to clear an obstacle or launch a drop off and land on both wheels together.
> 
> If learning the "proper" American bunnyhop is taking ages (I'm still not even close after months and have pretty much given up) I find the English hop really useful (google/youtube for instructions... but it's basically just a case of squat down to preload the suspension and tyres, then explode/jump upwards lifting the back wheel with you with your feet) and I managed to get that down in a long afternoon's practice.
> 
> Hope you enjoy your V8's as much as I do



Didnt get as much practice as I'd like last night but the wheelie/manual thing seemed to evade my skillset completely, though im still blaming the slippery pedals until I get my hands (feet) on the V8s.

I was however managing to bunny hop! Which is a first! Proper front wheel up an over followed by the back up curbs and over grates! Perhaps I am english hopping now I think about it. I was following the GMBN tutorial of lowering your weight down and then back in a reverse "L" shape.

Baby steps.


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## Jody (1 Nov 2016)

Well done. Bunny hops aren't an easy skill to learn!


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## ChrisEyles (1 Nov 2016)

Nice one! A game I particularly enjoy at the moment is going out with a friend and seeing who can bunnyhop the big piles the horses have left behind en route - gives a good incentive but minus any danger! You can tell by the state of our back tyres that we need more practice


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## ChrisEyles (1 Nov 2016)

Nice one! A game I particularly enjoy at the moment is going out with a friend and seeing who can bunnyhop the big piles the horses have left behind en route - gives a good incentive but minus any danger! You can tell by the state of our back tyres that we need more practice


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## mythste (4 Nov 2016)

To whoever suggested the V8 copies from wellgo - Thanks! had a short round the block blast with them last night and they've made a huge difference!


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## Crackle (4 Nov 2016)

I've got the V8 copies on 3 bikes. They are copies, they will start clicking but for 12 quid......


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## mythste (4 Nov 2016)

Crackle said:


> I've got the V8 copies on 3 bikes. They are copies, they will start clicking but for 12 quid......



My thoughts exactly. I've only properly ridden the thing once, I'm reasonably spanner handy so I dont mind pulling it apart to regrease but if needs must, I'll part with the £30 for a "real" pair of pedals sometime


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## Jody (4 Nov 2016)

Good call on the cheap flats, they help no end when tricking about. You now have no excuse to stop you learning wheelies. 

Biggest tip I can give for wheelies and the first thing to get used to (once the bike is lifted far enough in the air) is back brake control. Its an essential thing to know for when the bike goes to far past the balance point, dab on the brake to either bring it back in line or just slam the front back on terra firma.


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## ChrisEyles (4 Nov 2016)

Glad you got on with them! I need to get a pair to replace the ones on full sus and will definitely go with the wellgo v8s again.


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## mythste (7 Nov 2016)

Went out over the moors by Burnley with Manchester Mountain Bikers yesterday.

The ride was slightly marred by horrendously cold weather and a rider that was probably well below skill and fitness that we had to wait for constantly (Not me! But no one complained, just one of those things) but I learnt a load! The pedals where much grippier than I'd expected which is great news. Not so great news is that they did indeed take a chunk out the back of my leg! I suppose I'm glad it was the back and not the front...

Definitely need some more winter friendly tyres, I was immediately outed as a roadie when they saw the Cross Max tyres and I was raelly struggling for traction, especially over the boggy stuff.

I've been told, (and I agree) that I need to work on my slow speed maneuvering. I'm in control over heavy ruts at something resembling speed but if I come up to something that I'm not sure about my instinct is still to stop and walk, which for the time being is probably sensible, but a lot of the other guys where track standing, assessing, then pumping the bike up and over or round.

All in all though, great fun, and I;m a much better mountain biker than I was when I started!


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## Crackle (7 Nov 2016)

That's proper stuff, well done. It's only a matter of time before those pedals get your shin, trust me.


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## Jody (7 Nov 2016)

Crackle said:


> That's proper stuff, well done. It's only a matter of time before those pedals get your shin, trust me.




Shhhhh. Don't tell him that!


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## mythste (7 Nov 2016)

Jody said:


> Shhhhh. Don't tell him that!



 It's okay, Road season is now in legwarmer mode, my scars will heal before the next leg shave!

Talking tires, are there any good value winter/mud options? All the options I've seen so far seem to cost a fortune! I like the look of the Schwalbe hans dampf (sp?) but I don't really know what I'm looking at.


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## Jody (7 Nov 2016)

CRC currently have a sale on and there are some reasonable tyres on offer. I wouldn't fret so much over a "mud tyre" but try to pick an all rounder. Proper mud tyres are skinny with chunky tread but don't roll well. Try and get to me thing in between. Hans dampf and Nobby Nic's are a good compromise that you can use all year round. I feel your pain with the price of tyres. They are nearly as expensive as car tyres. 35 quid is about right for one depending on carcass and compound type.


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## Crackle (7 Nov 2016)

CRC have wired Nobby Nics for 14 quid

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/...9q2VcxC7zkK6cp3AUGew2RoCDhPw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

No real problems with wired tyres, slightly heavier, slightly harder to get on but generally cheaper.


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## mythste (8 Nov 2016)

Managed to get a partially used Hans Dampf and Nobby Nic folding - £15 for the pair from a helpful local MTBer!

Excited for actual grip


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## Jody (8 Nov 2016)

Bargain for £15. I like Nobby Nics and run them myself but just be careful if taking a flat corner with loose material as they have a tendancy to washout without giving any warning. I have found reversing the tyre direction from manufacturers recommendation helped marginally but they still do it. Not sure if the Hands Dampf is any better for the front.


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