# Improving average speed



## oliglynn (5 May 2011)

Looking here for some quick fixes to improve average speed for a friend of ours who's coming on a 3 day ~300 mile ride with us. 

He's a little slow - averaging 12-14mph, and holds the rest of the group (we usually average 17-19) back considerably. He rides a reasonable road bike - tiagra groupset & carbon forks etc just like the rest of us.

We've recommended getting a pair of cycling shorts and pedals with cleats and, as he currently rides in trainers & baggy trousers. How much average speed could this potentially add?

Also any other suggestions to get him faster quickly would be appreciated. May even take some of the advice myself!


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## amaferanga (5 May 2011)

Don't think the pedals and lycra will make a huge difference - certainly not 4-5mph.

He needs to get his power up. Threshold intervals and/or just riding at a pace above his comfort zone should make a difference (I think a lot of cyclists just pootle around at a comfortable pace all the time even on short rides).


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## marinyork (5 May 2011)

oliglynn said:


> We've recommended getting a pair of cycling shorts and pedals with cleats and, as he currently rides in trainers & baggy trousers. How much average speed could this potentially add?



About 0.5mph-1mph. Unless for some reason he's really not getting that much power down on flats and there's all this latent power waiting to be tapped.

Surely if he's been cycling some time and still doing 12-14mph (which you snobbily call slow) there's very little chance of him making such a gigantic improvement almost overnight (unless he's just not pushing hard enough).


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## marinyork (5 May 2011)

amaferanga said:


> (I think a lot of cyclists just pootle around at a comfortable pace all the time even on short rides).



I used to think this until I got my HRM on a few mates. The results were somewhat interesting - that some people who regarded themselves as 'reasonably fit' or 'average' were chronically unfit and some of the people that went on about being 'overweight' and not a good cyclist were actually very average fitness wise and not doing too badly.


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## JamesMorgan (5 May 2011)

marinyork said:


> I used to think this until I got my HRM on a few mates. The results were somewhat interesting - that some people who regarded themselves as 'reasonably fit' or 'average' were chronically unfit and some of the people that went on about being 'overweight' and not a good cyclist were actually very average fitness wise and not doing too badly.



Not sure how you could easily tell this from a HRM. Everyone has a different max HR - this is just genetic and not related to fitness. Your fitness will be indicated by what percentage of your max HR you are registering at an given exertion level (specifically your power output). So to measure fitness of an individual you really need to know their max HR, their actual HR and their power output. A HRM only gives you one of these. You could use speed as a proxy for power, but this is not very accurate if the riders are different weights, or are riding different types of bikes. Alternatively you could estimate fitness based on recovery time, but ideally this again should be recovery from a similar exertion level (based on a % of your max HR). Finally HR is heavily influenced by other factors. I know when I am going down with a cold before I get any symptoms as my HR will around 20 bpm higher for the same exertion level.


However, having said all of that, I agree with your overall view that lots of people don't have a very good idea of their actual fitness level.


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## Angelfishsolo (5 May 2011)

Bottom line is there are no quick fixes.


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## marinyork (5 May 2011)

JamesMorgan said:


> Your fitness will be indicated by *what percentage of your max HR you are registering at an given exertion level* (specifically your power output). So to measure fitness of an individual you really need to know their *max HR, their actual HR* and their power output. A HRM only gives you one of these. You could use speed as a proxy for power, but this is not very accurate if the riders are different weights, or are riding different types of bikes. *Alternatively you could estimate fitness based on recovery time*, but ideally this again should be recovery from a similar exertion level (based on a % of your max HR). Finally HR is heavily influenced by other factors. I know when I am going down with a cold before I get any symptoms as my HR will around 20 bpm higher for the same exertion level.



Only a mess about guide, but what else is there to go on (it's not like I can drag them down to the lab for tests, that would be really interesting for all of us)? Was riding similar sort of bike on the same route at similar sort of speed. Did this on a few occasions (even tried exercise bike for like for like). All right so I did assume that their max HR was about the same as mine, but the numbers registered on the HR monitor were so large compared to mine I'm not sure that this was as much of a flawed assumption as it sounds. When I got my HRM I found out the nuanced variances in it, which was why I did it a few times for other people - similar result every time. I just found it a bit scary not the high rest heart rate for mates but how it spiked massively as soon as they did anything whatsoever. For a gentle 'pootle' it was like them getting levels of exercise at 80% of max HR (or what I'm guessing theirs is). Even some mates that did a bit of exercise didn't come off that well, which doesn't necessarily mean they would be bad cyclists with a bit of work as they had the muscles for it (I don't).


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## JamesMorgan (5 May 2011)

marinyork said:


> Only a mess about guide, but what else is there to go on (it's not like I can drag them down to the lab for tests, that would be really interesting for all of us)?



The main issue you have with this approach is that whilst the standard formula for max HR is 220-age, the standard deviation is +/- 10. This means that 95% of the population will be +/- 20 from the mean. So for a 40 year old you would expect their max HR to be between 160-200, or their 80% figure to be between 128-160. So 2 individuals may both have the same level of fitness, but one will have a HR of 128 and the other 160 for the same level of exertion.


I accept this may all seem a little pedantic but the main point I was trying to make is that HR is not a very good way to compare fitness between 2 individuals.


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## oliglynn (5 May 2011)

marinyork said:


> About 0.5mph-1mph. Unless for some reason he's really not getting that much power down on flats and there's all this latent power waiting to be tapped.
> 
> Surely if he's been cycling some time and still doing 12-14mph (which you snobbily call slow) there's very little chance of him making such a gigantic improvement almost overnight (unless he's just not pushing hard enough).



This guy has been cycling for a while, but just not long distances. He commutes under 2 miles each way by bike, and has been for a while. He also goes to the gym quite a lot, and is a lot slimmer (and I would have thought fitter) than me. Not being snobby with the remarks about slowness, fact is he is (surprisingly) rather significantly slower than the rest of us, which we all find a tad frustrating as we can't seem to get into a good rhythm when we're out due to having to constantly slow down / stop and wait. We want to help him get his speed up so we all work better together, and can all enjoy our 3 day ride (planned for July) better. We ususally go out once a week, so ideas for helping get him faster whilst out together would be appreciated! Usually we get ahead of him and have to wait up or slow it down.


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## philhul (5 May 2011)

At only 2 miles I wouldn't have thought that he's using the commute for fitness, only for a means to getting to and from work. Why doesn't he extend either going to or coming home from work to 5 miles or more a couple of times a week and really push it pace wise so that he is doing a bit of the threshold training. He must be able to add a bit of speed by July doing that?


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## marinyork (5 May 2011)

JamesMorgan said:


> The main issue you have with this approach is that whilst the standard formula for max HR is 220-age, the standard deviation is +/- 10. This means that 95% of the population will be +/- 20 from the mean. So for a 40 year old you would expect their max HR to be between 160-200, or their 80% figure to be between 128-160. So 2 individuals may both have the same level of fitness, but one will have a HR of 128 and the other 160 for the same level of exertion.
> 
> 
> I accept this may all seem a little pedantic but the main point I was trying to make is that HR is not a very good way to compare fitness between 2 individuals.



To cut the story short as I can't particularly be bothered with a trivial calculation my point was that the differences were as high as 70bpm in some cases for supposedly similar levels of exertion, which was why I wasn't too bothered with the errors. I was mostly interested in how these spikes came about in people that might well be below average fitness. Their rest rates weren't too bad in the mid 60s and then spiked massively in some cases. Shouldn't really be happening to people in their teens and 20s. It might not be a great surprise that their average speeds were sometimes as low as 7mph.


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## JamesMorgan (5 May 2011)

oliglynn said:


> This guy has been cycling for a while, but just not long distances. He commutes under 2 miles each way by bike, and has been for a while. He also goes to the gym quite a lot, and is a lot slimmer (and I would have thought fitter) than me.



To average 17mph+ I would expect someone to be cycling at least 2-3000 miles/annum, and to be doing so for at least a year or two. It may be that he just doesn't have sufficient mileage under his belt. Depending on the type of his gym work he may not be building up cardio-vascular fitness. Weight isn't a good indicator of fitness. Ideally he should be doing significant cardio-vascular exercise of at least 30 min (preferably an hour) a few times a week


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## edindave (5 May 2011)

philhul said:


> At only 2 miles I wouldn't have thought that he's using the commute for fitness, only for a means to getting to and from work. Why doesn't he extend either going to or coming home from work to 5 miles or more a couple of times a week and really push it pace wise so that he is doing a bit of the threshold training. He must be able to add a bit of speed by July doing that?




+1

This sounds like a sensible suggestion to me, and easily achievable.


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## JamesMorgan (5 May 2011)

marinyork said:


> To cut the story short as I can't particularly be bothered with a trivial calculation my point was that the differences were as high as 70bpm in some cases for supposedly similar levels of exertion, which was why I wasn't too bothered with the errors. I was mostly interested in how these spikes came about in people that might well be below average fitness. Their rest rates weren't too bad in the mid 60s and then spiked massively in some cases. Shouldn't really be happening to people in their teens and 20s. It might not be a great surprise that their average speeds were sometimes as low as 7mph.



I agree, differences of 70 bpm will almost certainly be down to differences in fitness levels. From personal experience when I've had a forced lay off for a few months, it is surprising just how quickly you lose fitness and how high your HR rises with only modest levels of exercise. My body may still look fit, but my cardio-vascular system certainly isn't.


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## marinyork (5 May 2011)

oliglynn said:


> This guy has been cycling for a while, but just not long distances. He commutes under 2 miles each way by bike, and has been for a while. He also goes to the gym quite a lot, and is a lot slimmer (and I would have thought fitter) than me. Not being snobby with the remarks about slowness, fact is he is (surprisingly) rather significantly slower than the rest of us, which we all find a tad frustrating as we can't seem to get into a good rhythm when we're out due to having to constantly slow down / stop and wait. We want to help him get his speed up so we all work better together, and can all enjoy our 3 day ride (planned for July) better. We ususally go out once a week, so ideas for helping get him faster whilst out together would be appreciated! Usually we get ahead of him and have to wait up or slow it down.



I wouldn't have thought that level of cycling was anywhere near enough on paper to be getting those sorts of improvements. Nowhere near enough. I suppose he wouldn't have to go absolutely mad distance wise if he was doing targeted training rides 2-3 times a week.

As someone who actually is in that 'slightly slow' speed range, for all I know he might well have the same problem as me. I found it was pretty easy doing 30 milers and took a long time to get used to 60+ milers (still not really used to them). I think it's a bit misleading on here as too many people post in the newbies section saying I did whatever ride of 50-100 miles at a reasonable pace after only 2 months of cycling, it's easy to forget not everyone can do that. What sort of gears does he spin in and at what cadence? Perhaps trying to sustain 17mph he's having to churn a gear massively larger than what he's used to? I know if I was doing that as soon as it goes above 16mph I run into problems as the gearing gets too big and I can't spin fast enough to compensate.

If you're better riders than him surely he's getting benefit out of it though.


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## Tynan (5 May 2011)

drop him

end of

he's either not trying hard enough or not good enough or both


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## amaferanga (6 May 2011)

Drafting should give him a good couple of mph extra for free. Get him to sit on your wheels all the time - might make quite a difference.


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## oldgreyandslow (6 May 2011)

"drop him

end of

he's either not trying hard enough or not good enough or both"

Thats a bit harsh


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## Tynan (6 May 2011)

yes but as per OP he's spoiling things for the rest of the group and not enjoying himself either, holding up other people is no bloody fun


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## marinyork (7 May 2011)

Tynan said:


> yes but as per OP he's spoiling things for the rest of the group and not enjoying himself either, holding up other people is no bloody fun



I don't think there's much chance of the speed increases happening in such a short space of time. I do wonder why if they are going on tour they need to do so at such a rip roaring speed though. I could understand if you were doing 540 miles in 3 days riders nervously going on about the need to maintain 17,18,19mph average speed overall, but not 300. 

I would maintain all efforts at him doing a bit of speed training to try and maintain 14 or 15mph and do long 60 milers at the weekends for endurance and then whatever gains aren't made just shrug them off. He might enjoy it a lot and a year or two down the line fully able to keep up.


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## Glover Fan (7 May 2011)

Just an observation, but I can see this tour ending in tears.


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## oliglynn (9 May 2011)

Hah, cheers! Well with around 300 miles to do we're not looking to blast it quite as fast, but will ideally tone it down to a more sustainable speed of 15mph or so. However for our slower member this = effort. 

It's not really my call to drop him - this is a tour with people from work, so consequently there's a little more politics involved & we've already paid for accommodation. I have spoken to others, and they seem to agree that he will drive us a bit mad. If it were up to me we'd drop him - but if that's not going to happen we need to do our best to get him faster. I just hope the group sees sense!


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## 515mm (9 May 2011)

Ooo....

Good luck, it's a very tough one and I feel for you. 

I would get all the other guys in for a chat and work out a plan of action that sees a couple of you take this guy out on 'practise' rides three evenings a week and a long (4hr) one on the weekend. Get our hero to practise keeping a wheel and take it in turns to pace him back into the bunch when he gets dropped, keep to an agreed average speed on the flat roads, but wait for the whole group to assemble at the top of a climb. 
Never leave Hero on a climb - take turns to pace him up. Getting dropped then abandoned is soul destroying and Hero will get so pissed off he'll ruin your weekend because he'll stop trying and end up going much slower than he would if he had company. 

I suggest a competition where the most helpful 'domestique' on each day does not have to buy their own drinks that evening. It's up to you if you tell Hero about this or not!

I've another thought. Does Hero appear to be going well for a short while then suddenly become really slow? He may be going off too hard (to keep up with you quick guys), blowing up and then riding in the red zone for the rest of the day. Someone close to me used to do this - we had a horrible time 'till I learned to mentally relax and my pal learned to not worry about being slow and take it easy at the start. Our average speed was lower than I would achieve alone, but we covered the miles and had a nice time.


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## uphillstruggler (9 May 2011)

Angelfishsolo said:


> Bottom line is there are no quick fixes.




i would go along with this.

i have been back on the bike now for a couple of years and my average speed has been about 15/16 mph. i have been going to a spinning class a couple of times a week for about 6-8 weeks and really having a go at staying with the instructor on pedal strokes and also hitting the high resisitance also.

upshot is that i went out for an hour at the weekend and managed 18.8 miles on a fairly windy circuit that i use. it was just one of those days that everything went well and i felt pretty good.

sometimes you just have to put the effort in and take the pain if yoiu want to improve - does your riding mate want to push on - thats what you should be asking him/her.

good luck either way


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## Ajay (9 May 2011)

What does your mate say?
Does he actually want to be a faster rider or is he happy with his own pace?
Averaging 19mph on "proper" rides takes some doing, and is not everyones idea of fun.
If you are doing a tour (and not a race) then you should go at the pace of the slowest rider - otherwise you're not really mates, are you?!


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## oliglynn (9 May 2011)

Ok cheers guys that sounds like some good advice - will try and get him pushing on. We have a ride booked for tomorrow night with only 3 of us, so we will try and be a little more to the point with him and get him moving on a bit. Better now than later I figure. It looks like he's going to get himself some spd's soon, so will see if they help at all.



> I've another thought. Does Hero appear to be going well for a short while then suddenly become really slow?


Hero seems to be moving a bit slower from the beginning. Maybe a very short burst of being able to keep up (say 2 miles or so and then things become slow. We'll set it off nice and slowly tomorrow and see if that helps.


Spin classes are available here on Mondays, so will encourage some attendance.


Bring on the pain!


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## marinyork (9 May 2011)

oliglynn said:


> Hero seems to be moving a bit slower from the beginning. Maybe a very short burst of being able to keep up (say 2 miles or so and then things become slow. We'll set it off nice and slowly tomorrow and see if that helps.



If they mostly ride in terms of 2 mile journeys on their commute, this may not be coincidental in the least.

I've had what 515mm describes with cycling mates even slower than me. They'd start off pummelling it along with no warm up (they didn't see the need for one) and around the distance of their usual trip to the shops dramatically start to tail off for the rest of the journey and demand stops here and there. It's not particularly helpful as to this day they still believe them doing a 20 mile ride is physically impossible for them.


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## GrasB (9 May 2011)

Just a thought but 
13mph = 70w on the flat
18mph = 155w on the flat
That's one hell of a power jump to make. I'd be thinking that maybe you need to go out with him & do some hard interval training during the week then a long slow paced ride at the weekend. You've just about got enough time to get some gains but you're not going to see much really.


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## HLaB (9 May 2011)

I'm doing the Etape Caledonia at the weekend with my brother and his mate. From his description, his mate will really struggle not to get swept up by the broom wagon and he is determined that he'll drop him so as not to suffer the same fate. Tbh I could easily drop my brother (his rides are usually about 14.5mph, before stops; last year I did the Etape @ 19.1mph without training and without stops) but I couldn't do that to him! It depends how you are approaching the ride, I'm happy with some folk just to bimble along at their pace, yet other times I've let folk drop off the back of club runs/ sportives without noticing.


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## steve52 (9 May 2011)

so i have worked my ass of to do a ten in 28 mins and feel dead at the end, while others average 2 mph less for 100 miles? i sujest you start racing


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## steve52 (9 May 2011)

are we talking true averages as in t/d= v?


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## JonnyBlade (9 May 2011)

I'd like to bet on the 3rd day that the tortoise will come into his own


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## HLaB (9 May 2011)

steve52 said:


> are we talking true averages as in t/d= v?



For me on the Etape there was no lights, junctions and no stops, so yes we are talking about a true average buts its only 81 miles and pretty flat but that is slow compared to other folk. Some of my club mates are doing 10 centuries in 10 days, OK it was their first but they were averaging 20.5mph  when I last spoke to them they had done 6  

btw its v = d/t


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## Kirstie (10 May 2011)

He needs interval training in the week and progressively longer rides at the weekend - it's not going to happen without some pain and commitment from him, and some understanding from you, but there is still time. I've beasted myself on the intervals for several months now (3 1hr sessions per week) and it has totally worked - it was painful but I am chuffed to bits with the results. 

My ex-racing/training partner is really keen to get back into cycling after a couple of years 'in the wilderness' which has resulted in a bit of weight gain and a lot of fitness loss. I quite often go riding with her to get her back into it but the pace is never as high as I want to go and I end up waiting at every junction, but it's completely OK. I would rather spend time with her cycling than not. If I had a different attitude where i was pressurising her to go faster all of the time because it was annoying me, that would completely put her off cycling altogether and would also end our friendship. I wonder why she's not committing to training more but I don't ask - I just try and keep positive and encourage her. I don't know you or the guy you are trying to 'improve' but be careful about how you handle it because you could be making him feel like a total failure.


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## oliglynn (10 May 2011)

Kirstie said:


> be careful about how you handle it because you could be making him feel like a total failure.



I don't know the guy so well either, and am wary about this. Anyway, just about to take him out to climb some hills in a minute... whips at the ready!!!


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## oliglynn (11 May 2011)

Went out last night, and you know what, I think he's getting a little faster, especially up hills. We averaged a more respectable 14.8 on our ride.

How none of us noticed until yesterday that he's been going out on these 20-35 mile rides with us without any water or other drinks escapes me



, but needless to say we had a word about hydration!!

Hopefully that, combined with some SPDs will give us some improvement next week!


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## SquareDaff (11 May 2011)

JamesMorgan said:


> To average 17mph+ I would expect someone to be cycling at least 2-3000 miles/annum, and to be doing so for at least a year or two. It may be that he just doesn't have sufficient mileage under his belt. Depending on the type of his gym work he may not be building up cardio-vascular fitness. Weight isn't a good indicator of fitness. Ideally he should be doing significant cardio-vascular exercise of at least 30 min (preferably an hour) a few times a week


+1 for this. Have been cycling now for about 8 months at the distances mentioned. My average speed has crept up to 15-15.5 mph on a town commute from around 13-13.5mph. Fitness has increased as my resting heart rate has dropped from around the low 80's to the mid 60's. I have to really push now to hit my cardio max of around 165-168. I put my speed increase down to changes in cycling style as follows: a) increasing my cadence and b) riding further from the kerb (i.e. where the road is smooth rather than in the rough stuff where the tarmac is irregular) and losing weight - have lost about 3/4 of a stone just thru the increase in regular daily exercise.


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## ttcycle (11 May 2011)

I'd really echo what Kirstie wrote.

Everyone learns at their own rate and there has to be a certain amount of patience with riders otherwise it's easy to become despondent. A bit of patience.

I am really glad to hear that he made some gains on the hills - if he is into the idea of speeding up a bit; there's two things that need to happen - the long distance ride needs to be at a steady pace so that he builds up his capilleries (sp?) and internal organs to work more efficiently - this will take time and will also mean for the rest of you that you need to stick to his speed so that he's not overworking himself and pushing into zones that don't build up his stamina and overall fitness. That would be the compromise.

The speed building side - this will hurt, bigtime, it will also be hard to get big gains without the first step above of building up general fitness and stamina over longer distances and time. It's worth doing some shorter rides in the evenings of just riding and having one or two rides in the week where the plan is to work on intervals.

A fun way to do this is fartlek training - discuss it as a group beforehand. The plan is for one faster rider to ride off (for very fast and fit riders it won't be just riding off but sprinting off as fast as possible) and then the person to catch them up- you have to take into account that you'd need to not sprint off too fast as that would be too much for him. Then ride easy and at a slow pace to recover and then go again with another person riding off for him to catch up. 

The other way to do it is that if your route has traffic signals- you could decide that 5/8 metres before the next traffic signal to all sprint up to the sign as fast as possible until you reach it. Then ride to recover and go again for the next traffic signal.

There's traditional intervals of timed all out sprinting and then recovery periods but the above ways enable groups to do it.


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## HLaB (11 May 2011)

I forget where my brother was a year ago but I think rides were less than 13mph but with a change of bike (he's now on a light cyclocross, he was on a mtb) smooth tyres and clipless he improved to around 14.5mph. He's lately put lighter Planet X wheels and GP4000s on and I dragged him round 41miles at 15.7mph, he actually liked being dropped and being forced to work (PS don't tell him I held back for him  ) a considerable improvement in just a year though he was very fit as a kid (athletics) and has kept himself in shape over the last 20+ years.


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## marinyork (11 May 2011)

HLaB said:


> I forget where my brother was a year ago but I think rides were less than 13mph but with a change of bike (he's now on a light cyclocross, he was on a mtb) smooth tyres and clipless he improved to around 14.5mph. He's lately put lighter Planet X wheels and GP4000s on and I dragged him round 41miles at 15.7mph, he actually liked being dropped and being forced to work (PS don't tell him I held back for him  ) a considerable improvement in just a year though he was very fit as a kid (athletics) and has kept himself in shape over the last 20+ years.



This sounds a lot more normal and balanced and brings this thread back to earth - thanks for that.


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## ttcycle (11 May 2011)

ultimately, it will take him a while to be faster - bear that in mind and actually just think about enjoying the tour and sod the average speeds-have fun, watch the scenery and talk..that's the most important thing surely as it's not a race after all...


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## oliglynn (12 May 2011)

Cheers for advice - will get out as much as possible between now and the tour to help him build up a base, and do some intervals too. 

Will make sure he hydrates too. I'm always quite conscious of being well hydrated when riding, as I hear the losses in performance can be quite bad even if a little dehydrated. If anyone has any figures on hydration then i'd be interested to know.

And yes, we do want to have fun and take it easy on this tour. We'll be having plenty of pub stops on the way I hope



. It's just that taking it too easy becomes a bit of a chore, as you can't get into a good rhythm and you spend longer in the saddle!


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## User16625 (18 Jul 2012)

So tell him he cant come. Dont tell him its because hes too slow because that will hurt his feelins. Tell him he cant come because the places you plan on staying are fully booked or are reserved only for certain people etc. Make something up, its easy to lie.


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## black'n'yellow (18 Jul 2012)

thread revival..?


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## The Jogger (18 Jul 2012)

oliglynn said:


> Looking here for some quick fixes to improve average speed for a friend of ours who's coming on a 3 day ~300 mile ride with us.
> 
> He's a little slow - averaging 12-14mph, and holds the rest of the group (we usually average 17-19) back considerably. He rides a reasonable road bike - tiagra groupset & carbon forks etc just like the rest of us.
> 
> ...


 
Well, did he get faster?


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## tyred (19 Jul 2012)

I don't think it's fair to try and force someone to speed up. He may be happy to ride at the speed he's at. Cycling isn't all about speed and I enjoy my slow rides just as much (and possibly more as I can take in the scenery) as my fast rides.


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## GrasB (19 Jul 2012)

Fine in theory, however in a tour/group ride situation if you've got one rider substantially slower than the rest of the group it really does put a strain on things socially. Say you want to press on because of weather closing in you can't. If you get to a nice bit of road you want to let rip on you either leave him behind or wait for them etc. Basically he either needs to up his speed or bow out because he could very easily wreck the riding for the, much, stronger riders. 

Also this is a very different senario to having a mixed ability group where a large number of the riders aren't that strong & others are very strong.


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## VamP (23 Jul 2012)

I suspect that the ride has been and gone, but how about putting him on a tandem with one of the strong riders? Win win.


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