# Non cyclists need recalibrating



## Drago (27 Oct 2018)

Interesting story here about supposedly poor amenities for those in new build housing...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45970349

One guy moaning that his nearest shop is a mile away. The second geezer bleating that it's a 20 minute walk to his local shop. Even worse than that, the Beeb think such laziness is commendable and worthy of a news story.

I'd think nothing of walking either of those journeys for a paper and a pint of cow juice, or hopping on my bike. In fact, this is ideal bike journey territory for otherwise non-cyclists. Why isn't BBC journalism mentioning that not everyone feels the need to drive 1 mile journeys in a car, and present a balanced piece of reporting for a change.

More proof that society and the planet are doomed, and when civilisation does collapse the Beeb will report on how unfair it is that people's nearest escape rocket to Mars is a 20 minute walk away.


----------



## snorri (27 Oct 2018)

Perhaps some people need to be informed regarding the convenience of having a litre of UHT in the cupboard to cover the 'no milk' emergencies.
There was another BBC article recently commenting on the fact that newbuild schemes encouraged driving because their design was both pedestrian and cycle unfriendly. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-45956792
We can't always blame the residents for using cars for every journey.


----------



## tom73 (27 Oct 2018)

Yes had a read of this early on. I did think just walk and can't you just get a bike ? Can see it being an issue for elderly or disabled but most new builds are clearly marketed at the "yummy mummy" market. The shoe boxers that are going up near me have adverts full of nice looking families all white and all "normal" 2 pt 4. Old , disabled , ect need not apply. Walking is clearly an issue for this new estate too only last week spotted one driving her kids to brownies. It's only 5 mins up the road.


----------



## alicat (27 Oct 2018)

I would be annoyed if my nearest shop were a mile away. Not every location suits every person: we are all individuals.


----------



## Alan O (27 Oct 2018)

The obvious question to me is - if you want to live near shops, why buy a house a long way away from them?


----------



## LeetleGreyCells (27 Oct 2018)

tom73 said:


> Yes had a read of this early on. I did think just walk and can't you just get a bike ? Can see it being an issue for elderly or disabled but most new builds are clearly marketed at the "yummy mummy" market. The shoe boxers that are going up near me have adverts full of nice looking families all white and all "normal" 2 pt 4. Old , disabled , ect need not apply. Walking is clearly an issue for this new estate too only last week spotted one driving her kids to brownies. It's only 5 mins up the road.


We walk my daughter to Brownies every week and every week we see people who live closer than we do driving there. It’s a 5-minute walk for us.


----------



## tom73 (27 Oct 2018)

Alan O said:


> The obvious question to me is - if you want to live near shops, why buy a house a long way away from them?



So true and you'd think they'd look into this stuff. Saying that the info re the new ones near me tell's buyers the closest train station is the one that closed under Beeching.


----------



## BeardyAndyM (27 Oct 2018)

I live in a 70s ex council house (1st time buyer, needs must) and the pedestrian infrastructure is great, a maze of footpaths and subways. Developers today are too worried about squeezing another property in to care about getting from A-B!


----------



## screenman (27 Oct 2018)

BeardyAndyM said:


> I live in a 70s ex council house (1st time buyer, needs must) and the pedestrian infrastructure is great, a maze of footpaths and subways. Developers today are too worried about squeezing another property in to care about getting from A-B!



That could be down to land prices, as much as profit need.


----------



## Phaeton (27 Oct 2018)

Alan O said:


> The obvious question to me is - if you want to live near shops, why buy a house a long way away from them?


Or to rephrase one of my pet hates, why buy a house near a race track if you don't like the sound of race cars


----------



## Pale Rider (27 Oct 2018)

Drago said:


> Interesting story here about supposedly poor amenities for those in new build housing...
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45970349
> 
> ...



It is the resident who thinks 20 minutes to walk to the shops is too far, not the BBC.

You may think that's lazy, but you need to nip round to the bloke's house and tell him.

Moaning at the BBC just because they report views with which you disagree is the worst form of shooting the messenger.


----------



## NorthernDave (27 Oct 2018)

I've posted this before, but we have a Co-op an 8 minute walk away that covers all the basics and emergency stuff, and a Tesco Extra about a 10 minute walk in the other direction that has all the consumables a person could ever need on a retail park that is a nightmare to get in and out of in a car at busy times (which seems to be the design brief for retail parks these days).
Yet we have neighbours who will get the car out and drive to either rather than walking, even in the height of summer. 
I really couldn't be doing with all the faff.
I've been in the Co-op and found a neighbour next to me in the queue who has asked "Where's the car?" and then on finding I've walked expressed surprise bordering on shock and offered me a lift back and been equally surprised when I've politely declined....


----------



## Mo1959 (27 Oct 2018)

NorthernDave said:


> I've posted this before, but we have a Co-op an 8 minute walk away that covers all the basics and emergency stuff, and a Tesco Extra about a 10 minute walk in the other direction that has all the consumables a person could ever need on a retail park that is a nightmare to get in and out of in a car at busy times (which seems to be the design brief for retail parks these days).
> Yet we have neighbours who will get the car out and drive to either rather than walking, even in the height of summer.
> I really couldn't be doing with all the faff.
> I've been in the Co-op and found a neighbour next to me in the queue who has asked "Where's the car?" and then on finding I've walked expressed surprise bordering on shock and offered me a lift back and been equally surprised when I've politely declined....


Not even very good for the car starting it up for such short journeys. Not long back from the Co-op myself. I'm inclined to just pop round two or three times a week to get what I need and use two bags. Probably about three quarters of a mile there and back. Hardly ever take the car unless I'm using it anyway and just stop in on the way home.


----------



## Shut Up Legs (27 Oct 2018)

I walk to my local shopping centre every Saturday and Sunday to do grocery and other shopping, and the round trip is over 3 miles at least. I suspect I'm an atypical 50+ year old for my area, though, because all my neighbours clearly have more cars than they can fit into their driveways, and I don't see many other people walking in my area.
Recently, a local newspaper ran an article making all these dire statements about how a large percentage of people in my part of the Melbourne metropolitan area have inadequate access to trains and buses, but I've done the walk to my nearest train station heaps of times with no problems. Of course, it's about a 30 minute walk for me (perhaps 40 for others), and the very prospect of such a walk would have my neighbours hyperventilating in shock.


----------



## Gary E (27 Oct 2018)

We have a Tesco express 3 doors up from us. Really convenient for us from a shopping perspective but the downside is the constant amount of cars parked around the shop, often blocking our driveway. The annoying thing is that after some of these people get home and park outside their house we can still see them from ours!!!


----------



## Drago (27 Oct 2018)

Strangely. I never felt hard done by walking 4 miles each way to school every day. Soon there people won't be able to take a dump without driving to the loo. I'm beginning to think the film Wall:E is a documentary.


----------



## gbb (27 Oct 2018)

BeardyAndyM said:


> I live in a 70s ex council house (1st time buyer, needs must) and the pedestrian infrastructure is great, a maze of footpaths and subways. Developers today are too worried about squeezing another property in to care about getting from A-B!


To be fair I live in a similar sounding estate myself and while we moan about several things, the rabbit warren style particually...theres no denying the Development Corparation at the time, late 1960s, got it nearly bang on.
Yes some houses overlook each other far too closely but the grassed areas, trees, meandering paths and cycleways, availability of shops (although a good few have gone now), doctors, dentists, etc make it so almost everything you need for a day to day existence is within walking distance. And to boot, house prices are quite affordable. There are negatives of course and a good few of them but even so.


----------



## Slick (27 Oct 2018)

I live in an out of town new build within an existing small village where the closest shop is almost 4 miles away but it was a deliberate choice as whilst it feels like I'm in the middle of nowhere, I could cycle to the centre of Glasgow in under an hour. Mrs Slick often cycles to the shops and loves her new panniers.


----------



## snorri (27 Oct 2018)

Alan O said:


> The obvious question to me is - if you want to live near shops, why buy a house a long way away from them?


Because the houses are cheaper, and after buying a car running it is considered inexpensive by many?


----------



## kynikos (27 Oct 2018)

Yusuf, the first guy in the article, works in Birmingham but chooses to buy a house in Leicester from where he has a one and a half hour commute and then complains about how far away the nearest shop is and how, with the cost of fuel rising, this is adding to his cost of living!


----------



## Alan O (27 Oct 2018)

snorri said:


> Because the houses are cheaper, and after buying a car running it is considered inexpensive by many?


If they'd built more amenities like shops near the houses, they presumably wouldn't be as cheap.


----------



## NorthernDave (27 Oct 2018)

There is a mounting problem near us with regard to lack of services.
Where I live is on the edge of the city - I can just, if I lean at the right angle, see fields from the upstairs windows at the back of the house - but not for much longer. A new link / relief road is planned which will fill the green gap between here and a couple of villages as plans include development to fill in either side of the new road.
I fully agree that we need more affordable housing, but a GP surgery nearby closed recently and our GP practice have just closed their books to new patients. The NHS dentists that are left aren't taking on new patients and I'm told the schools are also at capacity.
The plans, which include 1,000s of new houses don't appear to include any of those facilities and there appears to be no real plan to integrate any sort of public transport into the new developments, or even practical links into the much vaunted Cycle Super Highway.


----------



## DCBassman (27 Oct 2018)

Drago said:


> Strangely. I never felt hard done by walking 4 miles each way to school every day. Soon there people won't be able to take a dump without driving to the loo. I'm beginning to think the film Wall:E is a documentary.


It's certainly a tad prophetic, if nothing else...


----------



## Slick (27 Oct 2018)

They won't get planning permission if there is insufficient infrastructure to support any proposed new development unless it includes said infrastructure.


----------



## Drago (27 Oct 2018)

And Chris Grayling, The Cyclists Friend, wants to build a super conurbation from Oxford to Cambridge, encompassing MK and Northampton in the middle. All his talk is of major roads, and more motor vehicle capacity, and when asked about how this is reconciled against the recent urgent warnings about climate change he dodged the question and talked about 'growth' instead. I wonder how much the growth will help when that part of the country is underwater by the end of the century?


----------



## pjd57 (27 Oct 2018)

March this year was the only time I've seen most of my neighbours walk out of our street.
Beast from the east closed the only road in and out for several days.
Only option was on foot. Most seemed to manage to get their boots on and make it to Asda, about 15-20 minutes away.

But they can't make it without a car when the sun is shining.


----------



## tom73 (27 Oct 2018)

NorthernDave said:


> There is a mounting problem near us with regard to lack of services.
> Where I live is on the edge of the city - I can just, if I lean at the right angle, see fields from the upstairs windows at the back of the house - but not for much longer. A new link / relief road is planned which will fill the green gap between here and a couple of villages as plans include development to fill in either side of the new road.
> I fully agree that we need more affordable housing, but a GP surgery nearby closed recently and our GP practice have just closed their books to new patients. The NHS dentists that are left aren't taking on new patients and I'm told the schools are also at capacity.
> The plans, which include 1,000s of new houses don't appear to include any of those facilities and there appears to be no real plan to integrate any sort of public transport into the new developments, or even practical links into the much vaunted Cycle Super Highway.



We too live on the edge of town and had the same thing at the back of us two large fields been after the land for years the two farmers sold up and the planned 112 homes has now via extra planning up to 350. Taking to the lads doing the roads and services they have been told to make it fit for 450. The promise of play area and leaving the bottom of the site open green space for walking and wildlife long forgotten. We have no services either all the near by GP's and dentist's don' t have open lists and the two local primary school's no placer's. I and other's raised the point with planning officer about no infrastructure to support the application. His reply was "they will have to find some" So I said how the services have no money to open any more reply " they will have to" Over the years around me we have had 14 fields large and small go to housing 12 in the last 10 years. No extra services for them either. 

The whole thing was one big game to the builders they asked for advice from planning then put in an application they knew would be turned down. Then summited a new one which got passed. Knowing if they said no they could show they had summited a plan in keeping with advice given so they'd win any appeal. 

The best bit is the very fields once home to wildlife have gone and they go and name the roads( Barn owl close, kestrel lane to name two) after the very
animals they made move out. 

Yes we need homes but if we can't plan them better and provided services to support them and above all affordable , with a good mix of social housing along side. Then It's just going to get worse.


----------



## pawl (27 Oct 2018)

tom73 said:


> So true and you'd think they'd look into this stuff. Saying that the info re the new ones near me tell's buyers the closest train station is the one that closed under Beeching.





Does no body check out the area where they are considering moving to.Not a lot of use moving then moaning about lack of amenities.As for pedestrians not all i hasteyto add prey we could have a new law Of using a mobile phone in a dangerous manner, eg ot looking where you are going
n


----------



## Drago (27 Oct 2018)

It's like these chumps that buy a house, and then realise the day they move in they have to dump their car in the street and inflict it on the rest of us.


----------



## ColinJ (27 Oct 2018)

A new Lidl store has just opened about a mile from my house. I don't drive so _ALL _of my local shopping trips are on foot or by bike.

I cycled over to check it out the day it opened and discovered that there is about 50% more car parking than the old store had. There is also a fast recharging station for electric vehicles. What there does _NOT _appear to be is _ANY _official provision for cyclists! I rode round all of the car parking bays and could not see anywhere set aside for bikes... 

One trusting cyclist just leaned his bike against the wall and left it there while he shopped.

Another option would be to lock a bike to the handrail on the steps up from the pavement below the car park, but I bet people would rightly soon complain about that.

All of the lampposts for the car park lighting have large metal guard hoops either side of them to protect them from careless parkers. I discovered that my massive D-lock is JUST big enough to lock my bike to one of them, so that is what I will do until my forthcoming campaign for Lidl to fit bike stands is successful! (I'm going to start the campaign by emailing Lidl UK HQ with a photograph of the bike stands next to the entrance of the Morrisons store round the corner! )


----------



## colly (27 Oct 2018)

Slick said:


> They won't get planning permission if there is insufficient infrastructure to support any proposed new development unless it includes said infrastructure.



You think ? That may be what is intended and in fact it may even be a requirement but I know of at least one and probably two major developments that don't meet that criteria.


----------



## tom73 (27 Oct 2018)

pawl said:


> Does no body check out the area where they are considering moving to.Not a lot of use moving then moaning about lack of amenities.As for pedestrians not all i hasteyto add prey we could have a new law Of using a mobile phone in a dangerous manner, eg ot looking where you are going
> n



Clearly not I think many stop after seeing the big glossy sign telling them how much they can get off the price by the builders offer and the state backed home buying ISA.


----------



## Globalti (27 Oct 2018)

What's this "shop" people keep mentioning? Our food is brought to the door by a nice man with a van and every morning a couple of bottles of fresh milk appear on the doorstep, empty bottles also get taken away for reuse. This leaves us free to concentrate on the important things like cycling, walking etc.


----------



## simonali (27 Oct 2018)

There's a retail park in Trowbridge where you can turn left or right at a mini roundabout as you enter it in a car. I've lost count of how many times I've seen lazy gits driving from one side to the other.


----------



## LeetleGreyCells (27 Oct 2018)

simonali said:


> There's a retail park in Trowbridge where you can turn left or right at a mini roundabout as you enter it in a car. I've lost count of how many times I've seen lazy gits driving from one side to the other.


I know exactly what you mean. People do the same in the retail park near me. I find it incomprehensible.


----------



## StuAff (27 Oct 2018)

Far more people at work use cars than bikes (human or engine-powered) or public transport. Majority of the staff live in Southampton/Eastleigh area- admittedly sprawling, but central Southampton is four or five miles, Eastleigh under two. Public transport options are not lacking- we're right next door to Southampton Airport Parkway station, there are bus stops right outside…and I bet my Honda uses less fuel for my 40 mile round trip than most of the local cagers' commutes....


----------



## classic33 (27 Oct 2018)

ColinJ said:


> A new Lidl store has just opened about a mile from my house. I don't drive so _ALL _of my local shopping trips are on foot or by bike.
> 
> I cycled over to check it out the day it opened and discovered that there is about 50% more car parking than the old store had. There is also a fast recharging station for electric vehicles. What there does _NOT _appear to be is _ANY _official provision for cyclists! I rode round all of the car parking bays and could not see anywhere set aside for bikes...
> 
> ...


There's "lockable" bicycle parking there. Ten bicycles according to the council.

Unless you're headed West to get to it.


----------



## screenman (27 Oct 2018)

Maybe some people have more time than others. Not that I am a fan of short car journeys, but many people may not have that extra hour a day to walk.

Our local Co-op runs out of eggs on a Saturday with the next delivery Wednesday, they keep red wine in the chiller and the white in the warm.


----------



## Johnno260 (27 Oct 2018)

Buy a house closer to shops if it bothers them.

Or explore the area where you are considering the purchase. 

I’m a country bumpkin so no issue hopping on the bike for a pint of milk, I live rural as I can’t stand large towns or cities, it’s why I don’t complain about the crap mobile phone signal. 

Human race is too car focused and with carbon emissions out of control it’s pretty much game set and match, it’s too expensive to save the planet.


----------



## tom73 (27 Oct 2018)

I see your point but many of the "time poor" are the same ones who find the time to be on SM for hours or sending endless one word text's backwards and forwards with someone.


----------



## ColinJ (27 Oct 2018)

classic33 said:


> There's "lockable" bicycle parking there. Ten bicycles according to the council.
> 
> Unless you're headed West to get to it.


Perhaps it is hidden behind a bush... I cycled round the car park twice and didn't spot it! 

I'll go and take another look for it tomorrow.


----------



## classic33 (27 Oct 2018)

ColinJ said:


> Perhaps it is hidden behind a bush... I cycled round the car park twice and didn't spot it!
> 
> I'll go and take another look for it tomorrow.


It's on the plans submitted!


----------



## ColinJ (27 Oct 2018)

classic33 said:


> It's on the plans submitted!


I thought the flood plan was too, but they built the store first and then took a year to sort that out ... Maybe they aim to build the bike storage in 2019?


----------



## pjd57 (27 Oct 2018)

RealLeeHimself said:


> I know exactly what you mean. People do the same in the retail park near me. I find it incomprehensible.


Happens everywhere.
If the car park is too small they complain. If it's huge it becomes too far to walk for the carbound


----------



## Johnno260 (27 Oct 2018)

tom73 said:


> I see your point but many of the "time poor" are the same ones who find the time to be on SM for hours or sending endless one word text's backwards and forwards with someone.



Is time poverty a thing now?.....


----------



## Daddy Pig (27 Oct 2018)

Tbh I'm surprised those complaining haven't got themselves a mobility scooter those lazy bar stewards...


----------



## ColinJ (27 Oct 2018)

classic33 said:


> It's on the plans submitted!


I just did a search and found this plan showing 139 spaces, including 4 P&C (parent and child?) spaces, 10 *disabled *spaces, and 2 electric vehicle charging spaces. No mention of bike spaces!

PS The charging spaces are in a different place to where they are shown on that plan. Maybe there is a more recent document than that one?


----------



## Pat "5mph" (27 Oct 2018)

Johnno260 said:


> Is time poverty a thing now?.....


Well, yes if you work irregular hours with irregular days off.
Lucky here in Scotland all is open mostly 24/7, with a bit of organization and with the internet I manage fine to feed myself, the cat, buy unnecessary stuff even when I am on shift 2 weeks in a row.
Once we had an unplanned event at work, I left for half an hour to go to my hairdressers appointment (just as well she was on site), while another colleague went home (10 min walk), took his Tesco delivery in, came back to work 
I have an agreement with my postman to leave parcels in a safe place, I also make extensive use of the click and collect services, pick up the stuff on my way home with the bike.
There is a local shop just across my door, opens long hours, still some weeks I leave before they open, get back after they close.
Not condoning the short distance driving, btw: I don't have a car, and the (less than a) mile to Aldi's gets walked unless I'm already out on the bike.


----------



## Johnno260 (27 Oct 2018)

I would imagine most people have time constraints, I work, have 2 children, and a wife who is an NHS nurse working shifts.

I plan ahead is all, cycle in the mornings before work, like you said with delivery’s I make use of Amazon lockers on my route home things like that.


----------



## snorri (27 Oct 2018)

ColinJ said:


> Maybe there is a more recent document than that one?


Get in touch with the Local Authority Planning Department and ask them why the store was permitted to open without cycling parking. My Planning Office gave me a contact at Lidl and after a friendly conversation their new buildings department promptly installed covered secure cycle parking with adequate capacity.


----------



## ColinJ (28 Oct 2018)

snorri said:


> Get in touch with the Local Authority Planning Department and ask them why the store was permitted to open without cycling parking. My Planning Office gave me a contact at Lidl and after a friendly conversation their new buildings department promptly installed covered secure cycle parking with adequate capacity.


I'm going there again tomorrow so I'll have a good look to make sure that I didn't cycle straight past some bike stands. If I still can't find them, I'll see if I can speak to a manager and find out if there is a plan to fit some. If I don't get any joy then I'll contact the council.

The new store's trolley storage area has a nice roof over it. I'll suggest that the cycle parking should be covered too. I will also emphasise that for bike security it would be good to have any stands near the store's entrance and not tucked away in the far corner of the car park. There is a rear entrance to the car park from the Rochdale canal towpath, which I think is a good thing, but it would also be a good way for would-be bike thieves to nip in and nick bikes if they were located over there.


----------



## snorri (28 Oct 2018)

ColinJ said:


> I'm going there again tomorrow so I'll have a good look to make sure that I didn't cycle straight past some bike stands. If I still can't find them, I'll see if I can speak to a manager and find out if there is a plan to fit some. If I don't get any joy then I'll contact the council.


IME, the local store manager had minimal awareness of site construction works, that was the responsibility of a dedicated group based in a central office somewhere.
I had hoped the LA Planner would have leaned on Lidl, instead he gave me the contact number for the new building construction group who cooperated fully.


----------



## Globalti (28 Oct 2018)

It's not simply laziness, there's a multitude of reasons why people wouldn't dream of cycling.

Imagination: I don't mind admitting that when I lived just outside Paris I was 2km from my office along flat, quiet, leafy boulevards yet for two years I drove every day even though it could take 40 minutes thanks to traffic on the main road. It simply never occurred to me to get a bicycle because I kidded myself that I needed the car for work. I walked one day when it snowed.

Culture: the son of my Pakistan agent, a student in the UK, rang to ask my advice on buying a car. Once I'd explained that you need insurance (!) I suggested he bought a cheap bike to ride to college. The hiss of indrawn breath and the shock was palpable. A bike is poor man's transport so he was horrified at the idea. Most people judge their position in society by the car on their drive, which is why they are such suckers for boot badges and willy-waving sporty upgrades and accessories.

Discomfort: most people tried cycling as a child and did not have the luxury of a correctly-sized and fitted bike so they dont know how easy it is to ride a good bike and cycling remains something they did for play for a few years as a child.

Luggage: "How would I carry all the shopping/children/dog/etc.?"

Distance: more than childhood distances look impossible. My colleagues are astonished when I cycle 22 miles from my neighbouring town, which is another world to them.

Security: the bike would be stolen.

Safety: "There are so many idiots on the road; I want solid metal around myself/my spouse/my kids."

Weather: "What if it rains?"

Clothing: "I have to wear a suit/skirt/posh shoes/a smart hairstyle to work. How could I cycle?"

Fitness: "Riding a bike makes you hot and sweaty because it's difficult and anyway I've got this dodgy hip/shoulder/knee."

And so on.


----------



## Milkfloat (28 Oct 2018)

The BBC article talks about the guy from Leamington Spa who won’t ride a mile to his nearest supermarket because it is too dangerous. About 90% of that journey is along fairly decent shared infrastructure and the missing gap in the middle everyone rides on the pavement anyway as it alongside an industrial estate. I think a lot of people are just looking for excuses.


----------



## screenman (28 Oct 2018)

I had a few months this year when I could not have walked to our local shop, let us not judge everybody.


----------



## Nigel-YZ1 (28 Oct 2018)

Penistone is turning into an open car park. Second cars are starting to fill pavements on both sides of every road. 2500 houses are planned. 3 banks have closed, so now there's none. The post office wants to convert to a pub to stay open.
It's new high price housing for commuting to Barnsley and Sheffield. Local amenities mean nothing as it's access to cities with the dream of the countryside that's being sold.
There's two primaries and a secondary school which will soon be at capacity.
The roads can't cope, older residents feel betrayed. Big SUVs rule.
We're moving out.


----------



## s7ephanie (28 Oct 2018)

My nearest shop is 8 miles away, I often cycle there if I only need a couple of things, the lady in phamacy there thinks I'm either mad or a hero !
Ps I'm not young either, just a little old lady on a bike


----------



## Drago (28 Oct 2018)

Everyone has time constraints, but the complainers are guaranteed to still spend several hours an evening watching mindless TV, or looking on Twitbook.


----------



## Johnno260 (28 Oct 2018)

Well my wife’s Grandma jacked in cycling to the local grocery store in her late 80’s early 90’s, it was several miles each way and she did it most days to pick up the paper and day to day items. 

If she can do it, people a fraction of that age have no excuse.

If you have an injury or recovering from an op that’s different, but most people complaining are more concerned about losing screen time.


----------



## Randomnerd (28 Oct 2018)

Built-up land area of England stands at 8.8% 

https://figshare.com/articles/A_Land_Cover_Atlas_of_the_United_Kingdom_Document_/5266495

Our country, however, lacks real vision for how people can live and work and move happily and well. Will Alsop, visionary architect who died this year, was the first guy to come up with a master plan. Cf Alsop Supercity 2004.

House of Lords and Commons rammed with members with vast vested interests in land; lawmakers ultimately control what is built where.

Vast swathes of brownfield land in the north. - a part of which I’ve been involved in remediating - remains undeveloped, while a one million home corridor is proposed between Oxford and Cambridge.

Locally, cycling infrastructure for me is fantastic. The human mindset locally is entirely welded to the car. Maybe ten in nine hundred households use a bike for work travel. No children cycle to school. My neighbour drives 650 yards to take kids to school. 

Solution? No idea. Chip all cars and charge higher road tax for short, useless journeys via pay to play road tax? Reward walk-to-schoolers with free stuff, e.g. council tax rebate (every car mile costs local authority in repairs, and NHS in fat kids and asthmatic parents etc)

What not to do? Sit waffling on about it on a forum. I’m off to buy some milk. Now, where did I put the keys to the Range Rover. “Darling!”


----------



## Drago (28 Oct 2018)

Milkfloat said:


> The BBC article talks about the guy from Leamington Spa who won’t ride a mile to his nearest supermarket because it is too dangerous. About 90% of that journey is along fairly decent shared infrastructure and the missing gap in the middle everyone rides on the pavement anyway as it alongside an industrial estate. I think a lot of people are just looking for excuses.



I did some training around Leamington Spud in the summer, and used the town centre for the advanced road skills session. It's fine, the guy is taking out his arris. 

If he'd rather have a coronary, then that's fine with me, but I do wish his sort would keep their lame excuses to themselves.


----------



## Randomnerd (28 Oct 2018)

The meejah are a big fly in the ointment here. Sticking a camera or mike in someone’s face isn’t getting to the truth of anything. It’s just fodder to fill webpages. 
Sadly, there remains very little serious journalism about here, about where we live. Most of it is bollox. We’re all too busy worrying about Brussels or Washington.


----------



## Edwardoka (28 Oct 2018)

Shut Up Legs said:


> it's about a 30 minute walk for me (perhaps 40 for others), and the very prospect of such a walk would have my neighbours hyperventilating in shock.


Two words: Drop bears. 



pjd57 said:


> March this year was the only time I've seen most of my neighbours walk out of our street.
> Beast from the east closed the only road in and out for several days.
> Only option was on foot. Most seemed to manage to get their boots on and make it to Asda, about 15-20 minutes away.


I remember going to the supermarket about a mile away on foot during that. Lots of cars stuck halfway up a 1% hill. The bread and milk aisles were completely emptied, except for almond and soya milk, which most people picked up and then put back down. Realising that people are unthinking slaves to habit and almost entirely incapable of change was a pretty bleak epiphany but I cheered myself up by taking a lovely walk through the park in knee-deep snow.



classic33 said:


> It's on the plans submitted!


Were these plans by any chance on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying "Beware of the Leopard."?


----------



## keithmac (28 Oct 2018)

Lazy people will always find an excuse and if children see their parents driving everywhere they'll follow the same lead..

I know a woman who arrives at school 1/2 an hour early so she can get the space closest to the gates (less walking..).

My two have always walked in, we had a discussion why the woman over the road spent 15mins deicing her car to drop her kid off at school and drive back again and none of us could work it out!.

Sometimes the simplest solution is true, bone idleness more.often than not.


----------



## byegad (28 Oct 2018)

tom73 said:


> Yes had a read of this early on. I did think just walk and can't you just get a bike ? Can see it being an issue for elderly or disabled but most new builds are clearly marketed at the "yummy mummy" market. The shoe boxers that are going up near me have adverts full of nice looking families all white and all "normal" 2 pt 4. Old , disabled , ect need not apply. Walking is clearly an issue for this new estate too only last week spotted one driving her kids to brownies. It's only 5 mins up the road.


Well we moved into a new build estate in 2016. There are lots of people within 10yrs of our age and a very few with children or likely to produce children. Sadly even in 'cheap' NE England the 80k for the cheapest 2 bed semi is beyond young workers. I sold our old terraced house cheap to my youngest son as he was effectively homeless after a divorce. I'm 67 and by no means the oldest on the estate, I'd guess the average age on the estate is about 50.

As to amenities, I can walk to the far end of the village in under 20 minutes, and I walk badly with a stick. Two of our three convenience stores are in the middle of the village, as is the Primary school, yet at school time the roads are filled with cars trying to park right at the school gates. A neighbour drives to the shop for some milk  I really do despair of people.


----------



## classic33 (28 Oct 2018)

Edwardoka said:


> Two words: Drop bears.
> 
> I remember going to the supermarket about a mile away on foot during that. Lots of cars stuck halfway up a 1% hill. The bread and milk aisles were completely emptied, except for almond and soya milk, which most people picked up and then put back down. Realising that people are unthinking slaves to habit and almost entirely incapable of change was a pretty bleak epiphany but I cheered myself up by taking a lovely walk through the park in knee-deep snow.
> 
> ...


Nah, they could well have been held in such a place though. The flood plain mentioned doesn't flood.


----------



## Julia9054 (28 Oct 2018)

An estate of new houses has just been built on the very outskirts of Tinytown where I live. As I rode past it this morning I thought "who the hell would want to live here?"
Tinytown is about 45 minutes walk end to end. There are no shops near to this estate - a 25 minute walk to the centre of town. I live near to the centre of town - it is 5 minutes walk to the shops/pub and 10 minutes to the bus and railway station. This suits me. This estate does not feel like part of the town but neither is it in the countryside so why would someone want to live there?


----------



## ColinJ (28 Oct 2018)

ColinJ said:


> I'm going there again tomorrow so I'll have a good look to make sure that I didn't cycle straight past some bike stands. If I still can't find them, I'll see if I can speak to a manager and find out if there is a plan to fit some. If I don't get any joy then I'll contact the council.
> 
> The new store's trolley storage area has a nice roof over it. I'll suggest that the cycle parking should be covered too. I will also emphasise that for bike security it would be good to have any stands near the store's entrance and not tucked away in the far corner of the car park. There is a rear entrance to the car park from the Rochdale canal towpath, which I think is a good thing, but it would also be a good way for would-be bike thieves to nip in and nick bikes if they were located over there.


There are DEFINITELY no bike stands!

I spoke to my checkout operator today. He turned out to be a cyclist and I know that there are at least 2 other employees who cycle to the store because I have seen them arriving or leaving by bike in the past. He had been similarly surprised by the lack of bike stands too and said that he'd raise the issue with the store manager next time he spoke to him. I said that I'd contact Lidl UK and see what they had to say about it.

There are no direction arrows in the car park so drivers are guessing which way to go and ending up driving straight at each other. There is an evident need for a one-way system to protect them (and pedestrian/cyclist shoppers) from each other.

There is a support for the trolley bay roof which looked to be a suitable bike-locking point but I nearly broke the glass side of the bay when my bike flopped against it. I decided not to risk it so I locked my bike on the lamppost-protecting hoop next to the trolley bay again today. Nearly all of the other posts and their hoops are either located in flower beds or so close to parking bays that any bike locked to them would probably get driven into by careless drivers (such drivers being why the hoops are there in the first place)!

Let's see how long it takes my '_Make Todmorden Lidl cyclist-friendly_' campaign to bear fruit ...


----------



## Will Spin (28 Oct 2018)

ColinJ said:


> There are DEFINITELY no bike stands!
> 
> I spoke to my checkout operator today. He turned out to be a cyclist and I know that there are at least 2 other employees who cycle to the store because I have seen them arriving or leaving by bike in the past. He had been similarly surprised by the lack of bike stands too and said that he'd raise the issue with the store manager next time he spoke to him. I said that I'd contact Lidl UK and see what they had to say about it.
> 
> ...


Can you not just wheel your bike into the shop and when challenged by security, ask them where the bicycle parking is?


----------



## Drago (28 Oct 2018)

Julia9054 said:


> An estate of new houses has just been built on the very outskirts of Tinytown where I live. As I rode past it this morning I thought "who the hell would want to live here?"
> Tinytown is about 45 minutes walk end to end. There are no shops near to this estate - a 25 minute walk to the centre of town. I live near to the centre of town - it is 5 minutes walk to the shops/pub and 10 minutes to the bus and railway station. This suits me. This estate does not feel like part of the town but neither is it in the countryside so why would someone want to live there?



Alas, too many buyers are dense and consider nothing more than finding a gaff within their budget. Car parking, proximity to amenities etc is all too often an afterthought, if indeed its a thought at all. As long as there are legions of buyers out there this daft then developers won't face any market pressure to change their approach.


----------



## Johnno260 (28 Oct 2018)

guy I work with bought a new build last year and there is nothing close by and he complains a lot about it, also it took the developers and open reach close to 6 months to get him a phone and internet connection. 

When we bought our current house we scouted the area beforehand. 

Another place we scouted out had a kind of local carnival BBQ type event that we went to for a pulse in the locals. 

But in my opinion laziness plays a large role in people driving.


----------



## ColinJ (28 Oct 2018)

Will Spin said:


> Can you not just wheel your bike into the shop and when challenged by security, ask them where the bicycle parking is?


I will be okay until someone gets to _MY _hoop first and locks their bike to it before I get there!  

I think a security guard would simply say "_That's not MY problem_" closed followed by "_Take it outside_"!

I just think that it wouldn't hurt Lidl to use one of their 139 parking places to provide enough space for 10+ bikes. (That ought to be enough - I never saw more than 5 bikes outside the old store at one time.) Companies should be encouraging people to cycle to their stores, not putting them off by ignoring their needs.


----------



## Glow worm (28 Oct 2018)

Julia9054 said:


> An estate of new houses has just been built on the very outskirts of Tinytown where I live. As I rode past it this morning I thought "who the hell would want to live here?"
> Tinytown is about 45 minutes walk end to end. There are no shops near to this estate - a 25 minute walk to the centre of town. I live near to the centre of town - it is 5 minutes walk to the shops/pub and 10 minutes to the bus and railway station. This suits me. This estate does not feel like part of the town but neither is it in the countryside so why would someone want to live there?



There's a large new estate on the edge of Swaffham exactly like that. Its brutally ugly too- could be anywhere. Nothing about the place says Norfolk. It's like a little piece of Slough transplanted 150 miles north east. There's hardly any work in Swaffham, so no doubt they all drive to Norwich or Lynn, clogging up further the choked A47. It's a good 10 minute walk to the shops too, so three guesses how they all get there. And another even larger estate is now planned over the road. It's just bonkers- there seems to be no coordinated planning for anything in the UK. I'm just glad I'll be dead in 40 yrs at most so won't live to see what a total nightmare the place will be pretty soon.


----------



## Saluki (28 Oct 2018)

alicat said:


> I would be annoyed if my nearest shop were a mile away. Not every location suits every person: we are all individuals.


My nearest shop is 15 min walk away but only if I want sewing stuff. Nearest pint of milk shop is a mile, even the garage is the best part of a mile and along a very busy road that I am not keen on walking along. I walk or bike but don’t feel it to be an inconvenience.


----------



## NorthernDave (28 Oct 2018)

ColinJ said:


> I will be okay until someone gets to _MY _hoop first and locks their bike to it before I get there!
> 
> I think a security guard would simply say "_That's not MY problem_" closed followed by "_Take it outside_"!
> 
> I just think that it wouldn't hurt Lidl to use one of their 139 parking places to provide enough space for 10+ bikes. (That ought to be enough - I never saw more than 5 bikes outside the old store at one time.) Companies should be encouraging people to cycle to their stores, not putting them off by ignoring their needs.



It does seem incomprehensible that they got planning for the store without including provision for "alternative" means of transport to and from the store, especially as you say the old store had cycling provision.
Perhaps they simply "forgot" to install the bike racks in their haste to get the store opened?
Definitely worth taking further.


----------



## ColinJ (28 Oct 2018)

NorthernDave said:


> It does seem incomprehensible that they got planning for the store without including provision for "alternative" means of transport to and from the store, especially as you say the old store had cycling provision.


Strictly speaking, the old store didn't have cycling provision either but the trolley bay there had a big guard rail round 3 sides of it which was ideal for locking bikes to, and the bikes were under cover there too. It was effective but '_unofficial_' cycle provision! 



NorthernDave said:


> Perhaps they simply "forgot" to install the bike racks in their haste to get the store opened?
> Definitely worth taking further.


The new store was actually completed over a year ago but Lidl and the council had a disagreement about flood planning. In times of heavy rain the building and large car park would be dumping large amounts of water into the sewer on the main road and that road is liable to severe flooding. It took Lidl a year to buy the land next door and put a large water storage system in there. The council is now satisfied that the new store will not be increasing the flood risk and so it has finally been allowed to open. So ... Lidl have had over a year to put cycle parking in. Maybe the cycle parking will be added on top of the flood water storage system, once the ground above it has been made good?


----------



## Julia9054 (28 Oct 2018)

Come and shop at our new Lidl, @ColinJ . Opened end of August, lovely covered cycle parking (which I don't usually use as it is 10 mins walk from my house!)


----------



## Ming the Merciless (28 Oct 2018)

Drago said:


> Interesting story here about supposedly poor amenities for those in new build housing...
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45970349
> 
> ...



Meanwhile on another page they will be reporting on rising obesity, poor health, and life expectancy falling. A 20 min walk, a 5 min bike ride, lazy sods.


----------



## ColinJ (28 Oct 2018)

Julia9054 said:


> Come and shop at our new Lidl, @ColinJ . Opened end of August, lovely covered cycle parking (which I don't usually use as it is 10 mins walk from my house!)


It's a bit far for me to travel for a bottle of milk! 

I'm about a 15 minute walk from our new Lidl. I will probably cycle to it most times unless I want to call in at other shops as well in which case I'd walk.

I think that somebody probably just forgot to add the cycle parking. I'd be very surprised if they don't rectify the mistake quite quickly once it has been pointed out to them.


----------



## Drago (28 Oct 2018)

In the retirement thread Lance O'Classic today walked home 2 miles while pithed, but these lazy arrissed sober people baulk at a 20 minute walk while sober.


----------



## classic33 (28 Oct 2018)

Drago said:


> In the retirement thread Lance O'Classic today walked home 2 miles while pithed, but these lazy arrissed sober people baulk at a 20 minute walk while sober.


Who did!!


----------



## Drago (28 Oct 2018)

Ah, maybe I was pithed when I read it!


----------



## classic33 (28 Oct 2018)

Drago said:


> Ah, maybe I was pithed when I read it!


It'd be a bit further than two miles from down there to here.


----------



## fatjel (29 Oct 2018)

Where I used to live in Kent I used to walk to the shops, maybe 10 minutes, 
and several times car driving neighbors actually stopped their cars to ask me why' I was walking !


----------



## Edwardoka (29 Oct 2018)

Ray Bradbury's short story The Pedestrian is becoming more and more prophetic.


----------



## ColinJ (29 Oct 2018)

I am walking round to Lidl and Morrisons this morning with my camera. I will take a photo of the bike rack next to the entrance at Morrisons, and a similar one of an empty space at Lidl. I'll superimpose captions on them 'More reasons (for cyclists) to shop at Morrisons?' and 'Less** reasons (for cyclists) to shop at Lidl!' and email a note to Lidl UK HQ. I have their contact details and they say that they are always pleased to hear from their customers. Let's see how long it takes for them to agree to a plan to rectify the situation and how long before it is implemented!


** 'Fewer' doesn't have the same ring to it.


----------



## mjr (29 Oct 2018)

Drago said:


> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45970349
> 
> One guy moaning that his nearest shop is a mile away.


I was once surveyed while living in King's Lynn because we lived in a "remote rural area" which was defined as more than a mile to the nearest shop and in a rural or semi-rural borough. It was 1100m to the nearest shop but that didn't count because it was 2 miles to drive to it (the motor vehicle exit from our estate faced away from that shop) and 1.3 miles to the next one. It was 1200m to walk or cycle to that one, but only driving distances mattered to the survey.

Ironically, where I now live, in a village of about six streets and no general shop (we've a beer shop and an antiques shop and some others, but nowhere to buy milk or tinned food) is not a remote rural area by that definition because the nearest shop is 0.9 miles away for both cycling and driving.

Our politicians keep coming out with stuff like "driving is essential" but it's only so because they've defined it as such and then built the world to suit drivers.

And why is anyone surprised that the Bike Bashing Corporation doesn't suggest that such people should cycle to the corner shop?


----------



## mjr (29 Oct 2018)

ColinJ said:


> I think that somebody probably just forgot to add the cycle parking. I'd be very surprised if they don't rectify the mistake quite quickly once it has been pointed out to them.


I won't. In my experience with Lidl, you'll have to report it to the local planning department for enforcement action (assuming the cycle parking is a condition on the planning decision) and then Lidl will do the minimum necessary to stop enforcement proceedings.

Norfolk's Parking Standards require (among other things) that cycle parking is closer to the shop door than any non-disabled car parking space (IIRC) but the local Lidl put theirs on the far side of the car park, next to the loading bay that HGVs reverse into - because bikes and HGVs go so well together(!)  That's even worse than Tesco, who got their cycle park at one local store signed off as approved before finishing fitting out the store (and it's unusual for them to install it before the last minute) and then it became obvious that it was by a fire exit, not an entrance.


----------



## mjr (29 Oct 2018)

ColinJ said:


> I am walking round to Lidl and Morrisons this morning with my camera. I will take a photo of the bike rack next to the entrance at Morrisons, and a similar one of an empty space at Lidl. I'll superimpose captions on them 'More reasons (for cyclists) to shop at Morrisons?' and 'Less** reasons (for cyclists) to shop at Lidl!' and email a note to Lidl UK HQ. I have their contact details and they say that they are always pleased to hear from their customers. Let's see how long it takes for them to agree to a plan to rectify the situation and how long before it is implemented!
> 
> 
> ** 'Fewer' doesn't have the same ring to it.


Does your camera put the GPS location in the pictures? If so, tweet the pictures (or send them to me and I'll do it) and cyclestreets should put them in the right location on their photomap. More publicity might help motivate them


----------



## mjr (29 Oct 2018)

Globalti said:


> What's this "shop" people keep mentioning? Our food is brought to the door by a nice man with a van and every morning a couple of bottles of fresh milk appear on the doorstep, empty bottles also get taken away for reuse. This leaves us free to concentrate on the important things like cycling, walking etc.


You pay extra for the food being brought to the door by a nice man with a van. One of the consumer shows recently did comparison shops of the websites and the physical stores and the websites were all marking up the prices, despite company assurances they didn't. The companies who don't charge any delivery fee inflated prices more.

ETA: the report I saw seems to be the same findings described in this Express article. 

So instead, I cycle to some town shops once a week and to a village with a nearby farm shop and butcher's shop once a week.

And we gave up on the milk cart because Dairy Crest seemed to use it as a way to dump short-date milk despite repeated pleas for at least 3 or 4 days ahead.


----------



## rogerzilla (29 Oct 2018)

There are many people, especially younger ones, who will only buy a new house as they can't face the work of clearing up someone else's mess or regrettable taste in decoration. New houses tend to be on edge-of-town car-dependent estates.


----------



## Globalti (29 Oct 2018)

Perhaps you do pay a little extra and yes, you also pay a small fee for the delivery but the advantage is that you don't walk around the store picking up 2 for 1 offers that you end up not eating and throwing away. There are also special offers every week and, more interestingly, the opportunity to test new products on the undertaking that you will write a review. I got a free bottle of Glenlivet Founder's Reserve this way, which was about £35 in the shops! Mrs Gti ticked the box on the order form in vain hope and we were amazed when it actually turned up.


----------



## mjr (29 Oct 2018)

ColinJ said:


> I just did a search and found this plan showing 139 spaces, including 4 P&C (parent and child?) spaces, 10 *disabled *spaces, and 2 electric vehicle charging spaces. No mention of bike spaces!
> 
> PS The charging spaces are in a different place to where they are shown on that plan. Maybe there is a more recent document than that one?


Maybe. The link's expired so I can't view it, but I did take the planning reference 15/01029 from the address and found that condition 19 is the one requiring cycle parking:
"19. Prior to the first use of the development details of cycle facilities for staff and customers of the development shall be submitted to and approved in writing by the local planning authority. The details shall include;
o Customer cycle parking close to the store entrance where it is overlooked;
o Secure staff parking designed as long stay provision; and
o one stand per 10 employees plus 1 stand per 200 sq m GFA.
The cycle facilities so approved shall be installed prior to the first use of the development and shall be retained thereafter"

So if there's no cycle parking, the store should not open!

The search results for 15/01029 also show that Lidl applied for sign off (aka discharge) of condition 19 earlier this year under reference 15/01029/DISC5 and were reminded that they had not yet complied.

As an aside, it sounds like the local council has no cycle parking standards because that condition looks very weak and might allow even wheelbender slots or other insecure junk if the officer reviewing hates bikes.


----------



## mjr (29 Oct 2018)

Globalti said:


> Perhaps you do pay a little extra and yes, you also pay a small fee for the delivery but the advantage is that you don't walk around the store picking up 2 for 1 offers that you end up not eating and throwing away. There are also special offers every week and, more interestingly, the opportunity to test new products on the undertaking that you will write a review. I got a free bottle of Glenlivet Founder's Reserve this way, which was about £35 in the shops! Mrs Gti ticked the box on the order form in vain hope and we were amazed when it actually turned up.


I don't walk around the store picking up 2 for 1 offers that I end up not eating and throwing away. I go with a list of what I want to buy (actually an app these days) and I'm not that gullible.

There are fewer special offers online than in store and I've never been offered a free review product or had such a box on the order form. I hope any such paid-in-kind reviews are clearly labelled on the site, else that seems like another sort of scamming customers.


----------



## Nigel-YZ1 (29 Oct 2018)

Housing estates aren't built for people, they're built to sell houses. The land is bought with the gamble that someone will want to live there. That's what marketing people are for.


----------



## Heltor Chasca (29 Oct 2018)

In my village ‘cars’ drive kids to school 800m down the road. 800m! 800 blinkin’ metres. 

We go to a school elsewhere. 8km return on the bike. 10 minutes quicker than by car. The bike. 10 blinkin’ minutes.


----------



## ColinJ (29 Oct 2018)

I think I will go straight to the council with this! But in the meantime ...


----------



## confusedcyclist (29 Oct 2018)

We may not need to wait much longer before our energy slave dependent society get's a collective wake up call.

http://www.stuartmcmillen.com/comic/energy-slaves/#page-1


----------



## PK99 (29 Oct 2018)

keithmac said:


> Lazy people will always find an excuse and if children see their parents driving everywhere they'll follow the same lead..
> 
> I know a woman who arrives at school 1/2 an hour early so she can get the space closest to the gates (less walking..).
> 
> ...



I used to wonder that about my next door neighbour. School was only 10 mins walk away. When she had her first hip replacement at <50, i realised the reason and that my judgemental attitude had been wrong.


----------



## Drago (29 Oct 2018)

PK99 said:


> I used to wonder that about my next door neighbour. School was only 10 mins walk away. When she had her first hip replacement at <50, i realised the reason and that my judgemental attitude had been wrong.



Virtually all my neighbours with school age children must also have had hip replacements then.

But even then, I'm not sure it's an excuse. Hulk Hogan has had a hip replacement and seems to get by OK.


----------



## Alan O (29 Oct 2018)

Globalti said:


> Perhaps you do pay a little extra and yes, you also pay a small fee for the delivery but the advantage is that you don't walk around the store picking up 2 for 1 offers that you end up not eating and throwing away.


I have a near fanatical revulsion for the wasting of food, and I aim to never throw food away - to a large extent it's because of the time I've spent in parts of the world where many people genuinely don't have enough to eat.

I was horrified this week to throw away some sausages, which were flavoured with hot chili. Now, I like chilies and very hot spicy food in general, but these were horrible - no chili flavour in the sausages, just a painful burn at the back of the throat after eating. I still feel guilty over the waste.

Before I go shopping (we have a new Aldi a mile away on a fairly pleasant walking route, and I go there 3 or 4 times a week), I eat first. Going shopping when I'm hungry leads me to buy more food than I usually would - and even if I later regret a purchase, I still eat it because of my hatred of waste.

And whenever there are attractive twofers, I'll only buy them if they have reasonable longevity or can be frozen.

But I guess this isn't much about cycling, so... next time I visit Aldi I'll check to see if there are any cycle racks.


----------



## classic33 (29 Oct 2018)

mjr said:


> Maybe. The link's expired so I can't view it, but I did take the planning reference 15/01029 from the address and found that condition 19 is the one requiring cycle parking:
> "19. Prior to the first use of the development details of cycle facilities for staff and customers of the development shall be submitted to and approved in writing by the local planning authority. The details shall include;
> o Customer cycle parking close to the store entrance where it is overlooked;
> o Secure staff parking designed as long stay provision; and
> ...


The department responsible for signing off the work has been reminded, earlier this year, that it wasn't in place.


----------



## mjr (29 Oct 2018)

classic33 said:


> The department responsible for signing off the work has been reminded, earlier this year, that it wasn't in place.


Store shouldn't be open then. Is the local press interested in council incompetence?


----------



## Will Spin (29 Oct 2018)

ColinJ said:


> I think I will go straight to the council with this! But in the meantime ...
> 
> View attachment 436067


This could of course be used as an argument against the need for cycle parking as the racks in the picture are empty!


----------



## Drago (29 Oct 2018)

No wonder they're empty - tucked away out of sight of the entrance, limited passing foot traffic and hence limited natural surveillance, no obvious CCTV coverage (and if their is I doubt it's being live monitored). Not the worst I've seen by a long chalk, but still little more than an afterthought.


----------



## ColinJ (29 Oct 2018)

Will Spin said:


> This could of course be used as an argument against the need for cycle parking as the racks in the picture are empty!


That occurred to me too...  I was thinking of going back and photographing it with my bike locked up there! 

I used to sometimes see 2, 3 and from time to time 4 bikes locked up at the old Lidl store so there is an obvious need for some provision at the new one. They may as well put in space for 8-10 bikes while they are at it. If they use one of the current car parking spaces then it would be daft not to use the whole space and I think demand will only increase as time passes.

I just tried phoning the council planning department but the phones were very busy and I got tired of being kept on hold. I'll try them again first thing tomorrow to see if I can beat the rush.


----------



## classic33 (29 Oct 2018)

mjr said:


> Store shouldn't be open then. Is the local press interested in council incompetence?


They could do a page of "council oversites" for the next year.


----------



## mjr (29 Oct 2018)

ColinJ said:


> I just tried phoning the council planning department but the phones were very busy and I got tired of being kept on hold. I'll try them again first thing tomorrow to see if I can beat the rush.


Before phoning to chase it up, report it at https://www.calderdale.gov.uk/environment/planning/enforcement/index.jsp and see if anything happens. You can do that at 2am if you like.



classic33 said:


> They could do a page of "council oversites" for the next year.


Is your local paper the Dog River Howler?


----------



## classic33 (29 Oct 2018)

Council just make a lot of "oversights", that's all.

The flood plain mentioned doesn't flood any more. Nor should Hebden Bridge have flooded the last time. Flood defences "upgrades" will prevent it. They didn't.


----------



## ColinJ (29 Oct 2018)

Drago said:


> No wonder they're empty - tucked away out of sight of the entrance, limited passing foot traffic and hence limited natural surveillance, no obvious CCTV coverage (and if their is I doubt it's being live monitored). Not the worst I've seen by a long chalk, but still little more than an afterthought.


Well, at least you can see the stands from inside the store through the window next to them and people walk over from the car park on the crossing opposite. I'd give them 5-6/10, which a lot better than Lidl's current 0/10!


----------



## keithmac (29 Oct 2018)

PK99 said:


> I used to wonder that about my next door neighbour. School was only 10 mins walk away. When she had her first hip replacement at <50, i realised the reason and that my judgemental attitude had been wrong.



She's in her early 30's and no signs of a limp..


----------



## mjr (29 Oct 2018)

PK99 said:


> I used to wonder that about my next door neighbour. School was only 10 mins walk away. When she had her first hip replacement at <50, i realised the reason and that my judgemental attitude had been wrong.


Depends whether the hip replacement could have been postponed by more exercise. Also, if people have problems walking, that qualifies them to have/show the blue badge and avoid most of the criticism.


----------



## ColinJ (29 Oct 2018)

mjr said:


> Before phoning to chase it up, report it at https://www.calderdale.gov.uk/environment/planning/enforcement/index.jsp and see if anything happens. You can do that at 2am if you like.


Thanks - I just did that. I asked to be kept informed of progress.

PS I got an automated reply saying that the department is very busy. Somebody will quickly check messages to prioritise them, but after that it could take weeks for a particular case to be looked into.


----------



## humboldt (29 Oct 2018)

My coworker was complaining the other day about a road being altered and made into a one way near his house - 'it used to take 2 minutes to drive down to my mum's and now it takes _almost 10_!' Just laughed when I said it surely must now be quicker to walk than drive. He is a former taxi driver though so I assume he's just used to driving absolutely everywhere.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (29 Oct 2018)

Exactly if it took 2 mins it was likely no more than 1.5 miles to his mums.


----------



## Salty seadog (29 Oct 2018)

@Drago I've just noticed your new sig line. Can I have it when you've finished with it, although I would alter it to 1974 and change the name?


----------



## ColinJ (1 Nov 2018)

ColinJ said:


> I just did a search and found this plan showing 139 spaces, including 4 P&C (parent and child?) spaces, 10 *disabled *spaces, and 2 electric vehicle charging spaces. No mention of bike spaces!
> 
> PS The charging spaces are in a different place to where they are shown on that plan. Maybe there is a more recent document than that one?


Hmm, I checked the car park last night - Lidl have put in 8 P&C spaces instead of 4 ... 

It's almost as if they were making it up as they went along!


----------



## Drago (1 Nov 2018)

Salty seadog said:


> @Drago I've just noticed your new sig line. Can I have it when you've finished with it, although I would alter it to 1974 and change the name?



@Salty seadog I've moved on, so its all yours matey.


----------



## Salty seadog (1 Nov 2018)

Drago said:


> @Salty seadog I've moved on, so its all yours matey.



So you have.


----------



## sheddy (1 Nov 2018)

The cycle parking bit made me remember the Waitrose trailer loan scheme. Did anyone use it ?
https://road.cc/content/news/5936-oxfordshire-gets-new-waitrose-bike-trailer-scheme.


----------



## postman (1 Nov 2018)

To help them lose weight,it was suggested to one couple they get off the bus just one stop earlier,then walk home.These entitled barstewawrrds raised the roof in indignation at being asked this.My mate witnessed it after his help after a stent operation.and his rehabilitation.


----------



## mjr (1 Nov 2018)

ColinJ said:


> Hmm, I checked the car park last night - Lidl have put in 8 P&C spaces instead of 4 ...
> 
> It's almost as if they were making it up as they went along!


It's almost as if no-one's checking any more...


----------



## classic33 (1 Nov 2018)

ColinJ said:


> Hmm, I checked the car park last night - Lidl have put in 8 P&C spaces instead of 4 ...
> 
> It's almost as if they were making it up as they went along!


Deputy Leader see's it as being green transport.


----------



## ColinJ (1 Nov 2018)

mjr said:


> It's almost as if no-one's checking any more...


It seems so! According to the layout shown on the council planning website there should be 4 P&C spaces immediately in front of the entrance but instead there are 8 to the side of the trolley bay. There should be 2 electric charging places near the main road in front of the store but they are at the opposite end of the car park. The disabled places are at least where they were supposed to be and it looked like there were about the right number (I didn't count them). But, of course - no cycle places.

Let's see how many weeks it takes the council to get round to processing my complaint! (If they haven't done anything by the New Year then I will push harder.)


----------



## Clanghead (1 Nov 2018)

humboldt said:


> My coworker was complaining the other day about a road being altered and made into a one way near his house - 'it used to take 2 minutes to drive down to my mum's and now it takes _almost 10_!' Just laughed when I said it surely must now be quicker to walk than drive. He is a former taxi driver though so I assume he's just used to driving absolutely everywhere.



I think I've posted earlier in another thread about how the marketing literature for a new housing estate (very) near our business park quoted one delighted resident "...and it's only 1 minute drive to work".


----------



## classic33 (1 Nov 2018)

ColinJ said:


> It seems so! According to the layout shown on the council planning website there should be 4 P&C spaces immediately in front of the entrance but instead there are 8 to the side of the trolley bay. There should be 2 electric charging places near the main road in front of the store but they are at the opposite end of the car park. The disabled places are at least where they were supposed to be and it looked like there were about the right number (I didn't count them). But, of course - no cycle places.
> 
> Let's see how many weeks it takes the council to get round to processing my complaint! (If they haven't done anything by the New Year then I will push harder.)


On 8 months and counting.


----------



## snorri (1 Nov 2018)

ColinJ said:


> Hmm, I checked the car park last night - Lidl have put in 8 P&C spaces instead of 4 ...
> 
> It's almost as if they were making it up as they went along!


Possibly they had a team over from Germany to do the job.


----------



## ColinJ (1 Nov 2018)

snorri said:


> Possibly they had a team over from Germany to do the job.


It was certainly a mix of workers from all over Europe! They used to shop in the old store up the road in their breaks. I didn't recognise some of the languages they were speaking.


----------



## classic33 (1 Nov 2018)

ColinJ said:


> It was certainly a mix of workers from all over Europe! They used to shop in the old store up the road in their breaks.* I didn't recognise some of the languages they were speaking.*


From Lancashire you mean?


----------



## NorthernDave (1 Nov 2018)

ColinJ said:


> It was certainly a mix of workers from all over Europe! They used to shop in the old store up the road in their breaks. I didn't recognise some of the languages they were speaking.



Possibly Lancastrians - you are dangerously close to the border...


----------



## ColinJ (1 Nov 2018)

classic33 said:


> From Lancashire you mean?





NorthernDave said:


> Possibly Lancastrians - you are dangerously close to the border...


Ha ha.

It seems that the powers-that-be can't quite make up their minds what county Todmorden is now in... I have a Yorkshire council and a Lancashire post code. Forms on some websites insist on me using Lancashire as my county and others insist on West Yorkshire! Historically, the county boundary went down the middle of the Town Hall.


----------



## classic33 (1 Nov 2018)

ColinJ said:


> Ha ha.
> 
> It seems that the powers-that-be can't quite make up their minds what county Todmorden is now in... I have a Yorkshire council and a Lancashire post code. Forms on some websites insist on me using Lancashire as my county and others insist on West Yorkshire! Historically, the county boundary went down the middle of the Town Hall.


More than one official has simply crossed to the other side of the main chamber to avoid arrest.


----------



## raleighnut (2 Nov 2018)

Phaeton said:


> Or to rephrase one of my pet hates, why buy a house near a race track if you don't like the sound of race cars


Tell that to the people who've bought cheap houses in Kirby Mallory.


----------



## Phaeton (2 Nov 2018)

raleighnut said:


> Tell that to the people who've bought cheap houses in Kirby Mallory.


Or Donning ton, or Croft, both are subject to noise restrictions


----------



## Drago (2 Nov 2018)

Phaeton said:


> Or Donning ton, or Croft, both are subject to noise restrictions



Going off topic a litte (it is my thread after all  ) The village where my eldest daughter lives has a lovely old church. The bells have been chiming there since the 1400hs, and chiming the hour since the late 1700s. A wonderful piece of history, much beloved by the locals.

But lo! Along comes Johnny property developer, and a dozen of so "executive" homes are built on a piece of scrap land. You know the sort, made from Lego, all slightly different but still identikit looking, on a parcel of land barely bigger than the house itself, obligatory 5 series/Jag F Pace parked outside? Anyway, people who like paying top dollar to be crammed in with their like minded systems analysts and middle managers aren't the sort who are tolerant of noise, and thanks to a few complaints by the new lot the environmental health folk have had no choice but to silence the bells. If even a single person complains, and the complaint is found to be genuine, they have to act - the fact the noise was present 600 years before they moved in and is positively welcomed by the other 498 villagers is neither here nor there.


----------



## Julia9054 (2 Nov 2018)

Drago said:


> Going off topic a litte (it is my thread after all  ) The village where my eldest daughter lives has a lovely old church. The bells have been chiming there since the 1400hs, and chiming the hour since the late 1700s. A wonderful piece of history, much beloved by the locals.
> 
> But lo! Along comes Johnny property developer, and a dozen of so "executive" homes are built on a piece of scrap land. You know the sort, made from Lego, all slightly different but still identikit looking, on a parcel of land barely bigger than the house itself, obligatory 5 series/Jag F Pace parked outside? Anyway, people who like paying top dollar to be crammed in with their like minded systems analysts and middle managers aren't the sort who are tolerant of noise, and thanks to a few complaints by the new lot the environmental health folk have had no choice but to silence the bells. If even a single person complains, and the complaint is found to be genuine, they have to act - the fact the nose was present 600 years before they moved in and is positively welcomed by the other 498 villagers is neither here nor there.


In my old house, my mad old lady next door neighbour used to do that too. Fortunately, they had the good sense to ignore her.
Unfortunately, she used to regularly report us to the noise police too which was less funny


----------



## Edwardoka (2 Nov 2018)

Drago said:


> Going off topic a litte (it is my thread after all  ) The village where my eldest daughter lives has a lovely old church. The bells have been chiming there since the 1400hs, and chiming the hour since the late 1700s. A wonderful piece of history, much beloved by the locals.
> 
> But lo! Along comes Johnny property developer, and a dozen of so "executive" homes are built on a piece of scrap land. You know the sort, made from Lego, all slightly different but still identikit looking, on a parcel of land barely bigger than the house itself, obligatory 5 series/Jag F Pace parked outside? Anyway, people who like paying top dollar to be crammed in with their like minded systems analysts and middle managers aren't the sort who are tolerant of noise, and thanks to a few complaints by the new lot the environmental health folk have had no choice but to silence the bells. If even a single person complains, and the complaint is found to be genuine, they have to act - the fact the noise was present 600 years before they moved in and is positively welcomed by the other 498 villagers is neither here nor there.


You should go round their area of an evening and fly post something like "Ask not for whom the bell tolls, because you've brought about the end of the bells. Guess what that makes you?"

Bells are a strange thing to get het up about. I've lived in a couple of villages with audible church bells, hell my last house backed onto a church and aside from the spoopiness of walking past the cemetery in the dark, it's fine. You quickly tune it out. Conversely St. Mary's Church in Dundee is obnoxiously, painfully loud and can be heard for miles around.


----------



## mjr (2 Nov 2018)

Drago said:


> Going off topic a litte (it is my thread after all  ) The village where my eldest daughter lives has a lovely old church. The bells have been chiming there since the 1400hs, and chiming the hour since the late 1700s. A wonderful piece of history, much beloved by the locals.
> 
> But lo! Along comes Johnny property developer, and a dozen of so "executive" homes are built on a piece of scrap land. You know the sort, made from Lego, all slightly different but still identikit looking, on a parcel of land barely bigger than the house itself, obligatory 5 series/Jag F Pace parked outside? Anyway, people who like paying top dollar to be crammed in with their like minded systems analysts and middle managers aren't the sort who are tolerant of noise, and thanks to a few complaints by the new lot the environmental health folk have had no choice but to silence the bells. If even a single person complains, and the complaint is found to be genuine, they have to act - the fact the noise was present 600 years before they moved in and is positively welcomed by the other 498 villagers is neither here nor there.


Silenced 11-7 overnight, or all the time? If overnight, I can understand it and that the church has been committing offences against the local population for many years doesn't mean it should be allowed to continue. We could say similar about plenty of other dodgy practices of churches!


----------



## Phaeton (2 Nov 2018)

mjr said:


> Silenced 11-7 overnight, or all the time? If overnight, I can understand it and that the church has been committing offences against the local population for many years doesn't mean it should be allowed to continue. We could say similar about plenty of other dodgy practices of churches!


Bit of a stretch!


----------



## Drago (2 Nov 2018)

Surely the obvious thing is don't move somewhere if you don't like it? You would think they'd have noticed this when viewing the house, or their survey would mention it's within 200 metres of a Church, but no, it always has to be someone else who has to change to accommodate them.


----------



## classic33 (2 Nov 2018)

mjr said:


> Silenced 11-7 overnight, or all the time? If overnight, I can understand it and that the church has been committing offences against the local population for many years doesn't mean it should be allowed to continue. We could say similar about plenty of other dodgy practices of churches!


On a similar note.
How do you legally keep cattle quiet during the hours of darkness?

Explain what's dodgy/illega about a church letting people know the time. You've classed it as a "dodgy practice".


----------



## mjr (2 Nov 2018)

Drago said:


> Surely the obvious thing is don't move somewhere if you don't like it? You would think they'd have noticed this when viewing the house, or their survey would mention it's within 200 metres of a Church, but no, it always has to be someone else who has to change to accommodate them.


I doubt many surveys are done between 11pm and 7am, or check whether a nearby church bell currently complies with the law for at least the last 20 years. Surely the obvious thing is just to stop ringing the bells



classic33 said:


> On a similar note.
> How do you legally keep cattle quiet during the hours of darkness?


You can't completely so you just don't keep them next to people's homes, but few of them make noises every 15-60 minutes through the night.



classic33 said:


> Explain what's dodgy/illega about a church letting people know the time. You've classed it as a "dodgy practice".


Loudly telling people the time frequently 24x7 both "unreasonably and substantially interfere with the use or enjoyment of a home or other premises" and is likely to "injure health or be likely to injure health", both of which are illegal nuisances. It's not the letting them know the time as such, although that's surely unnecessary these days, but leaving people no break in it to sleep.


----------



## Phaeton (2 Nov 2018)

mjr said:


> I doubt many surveys are done between 11pm and 7am, or check whether a nearby church bell currently complies with the law for at least the last 20 years. Surely the obvious thing is just to stop ringing the bells
> 
> Loudly telling people the time frequently 24x7 both "unreasonably and substantially interfere with the use or enjoyment of a home or other premises" and is likely to "injure health or be likely to injure health", both of which are illegal nuisances. It's not the letting them know the time as such, although that's surely unnecessary these days, but leaving people no break in it to sleep.


Sorry completely disagree with you here, if you don;t want the bells don't move there stop being an arrogant bleep, move there & complain. Now if you lived there & they built a church that then rang bells that would be different.


----------



## classic33 (2 Nov 2018)

mjr said:


> I doubt many surveys are done between 11pm and 7am, or check whether a nearby church bell currently complies with the law for at least the last 20 years. Surely the obvious thing is just to stop ringing the bells
> 
> 
> You can't completely so you just don't keep them next to people's homes, but few of them make noises every 15-60 minutes through the night.
> ...


There's cows in a field, less than 800 yards from me all year round. Their bawling at 04:00, every morning, is accepted as part and parcel of where I live by me. As is the S**t spreading and the smell in the air from it. You'd be suprised at how often they make noise, a lot more than you think and often for longer than any bell sounding.

Using your argument, quality of life, I'll try and bring the thread back on topic by saying there's many who could use it to get roads shut to motor traffic. People would then have to walk everywhere.


----------



## Bazzer (2 Nov 2018)

ColinJ said:


> Ha ha.
> 
> It seems that the powers-that-be can't quite make up their minds what county Todmorden is now in... I have a Yorkshire council and a Lancashire post code. Forms on some websites insist on me using Lancashire as my county and others insist on West Yorkshire! Historically, the county boundary went down the middle of the Town Hall.



IIRC in the mid to late 80s, Council Tax paid to Halifax, an Oldham post code and telephone services provided by an exchange in Blackburn.


----------



## classic33 (2 Nov 2018)

Bazzer said:


> IIRC in the mid to late 80s, Council Tax paid to Halifax, an Oldham post code and telephone services provided by an exchange in Blackburn.


Nowt much has changed thi nos.


----------



## mjr (2 Nov 2018)

classic33 said:


> There's cows in a field, less than 800 yards from me all year round. Their bawling at 04:00, every morning, is accepted as part and parcel of where I live by me. As is the S**t spreading and the smell in the air from it. You'd be suprised at how often they make noise, a lot more than you think and often for longer than any bell sounding.


There are cows are less than 500m from my home and I think you're wrong about them being noisier than bells at that distance but the church in our village is a private house now so I've no recent comparison. (Norfolk - especially Norwich - often comes near the top of the most godless places.)



> Using your argument, quality of life, I'll try and bring the thread back on topic by saying there's many who could use it to get roads shut to motor traffic. People would then have to walk everywhere.


1. Not my argument, or even the one from law that I referenced earlier.
2. There might be other non motorised ways for people to get around quietly...


----------



## classic33 (2 Nov 2018)

mjr said:


> There are cows are less than 500m from my home and I think you're wrong about them being noisier than bells but the church in our village is a private house now so I've no recent comparison. (Norfolk - especially Norwich - often comes near the top of the most godless places.)
> 
> 
> 1. Not my argument, or even the one from law that I referenced earlier.
> 2. There might be other non motorised ways for people to get around quietly...


I can go 200 yards in the opposite direction, and get cows now. But they're not there all year round. And nowhere did I say they're noisier than bells, you've seen something thats not been said again.

Church bell is a 1/4 mile away, only recently silenced, ending a 400 year practice, by new build owners.


----------



## mjr (2 Nov 2018)

classic33 said:


> I can go 200 yards in the opposite direction, and get cows now. But they're not there all year round. And nowhere did I say they're noisier than bells, you've seen something thats not been said again.


A bit like "quality of life" wasn't in my post, but sorry anyway. Two misreads doesn't make a right.

I have never been woken up by cows despite living that near them (but not all year either - aren't most cows moved between fields?) while I have been woken up by church bells at 7am sometimes when in other places (I didn't need to be awake then. I guess they were silenced overnight.) 



> Church bell is a 1/4 mile away, only recently silenced, ending a 400 year practice, by new build owners.


Ok if only overnight, else the church is being petty IMO.


----------



## Phaeton (2 Nov 2018)

mjr said:


> while I have been woken up by church bells at 7am sometimes when in other places (I didn't need to be awake then. I guess they were silenced overnight.)
> Ok if only overnight, else the church is being petty IMO.


Isn't this a pot/kettle situation?


----------



## classic33 (2 Nov 2018)

I'm kept awake by cars, owners going to the shop(10 minute walk there and back) from 05:00 on.

The church wasn't being petty, those that moved into the newbuilds were.


----------



## mjr (2 Nov 2018)

Phaeton said:


> Isn't this a pot/kettle situation?


Only if I start playing metal at high volumes immediately outside the Church during a service.


----------



## classic33 (2 Nov 2018)

mjr said:


> Only if I start playing metal at high volumes immediately outside the Church during a service.


That'd be disrespect, nothing else.


----------



## Phaeton (2 Nov 2018)

mjr said:


> Only if I start playing metal at high volumes immediately outside the Church during a service.


Sorry you've completely lost me there, but I still maintain, that if something is there when you move in tough, you should have moved somewhere else, you should forgo the right to complain, if it was new after the event then fine.


----------



## mjr (3 Nov 2018)

Phaeton said:


> Sorry you've completely lost me there, but I still maintain, that if something is there when you move in tough, you should have moved somewhere else, you should forgo the right to complain, if it was new after the event then fine.


Maybe churches which still ring the bells overnight despite the various laws should be clearly marked so prospective residents will know?

And yet, loads of people move in somewhere and campaign for new roads to take the traffic past other people's homes instead without attracting this sort of criticism. Odd.


----------



## classic33 (3 Nov 2018)

One, churches are already there, look good in pictures, seldom mentioned in sales material. Roads are seen as a requirement, are new, at times going in after the house has been bought.

Train passed a level crossing 10 minutes ago, the horn could be heard close on four miles away. Compulsory that it sounds its horn, but what's it like for those closer than me?


----------



## Julia9054 (3 Nov 2018)

classic33 said:


> One, churches are already there, look good in pictures, seldom mentioned in sales material. Roads are seen as a requirement, are new, at times going in after the house has been bought.
> 
> Train passed a level crossing 10 minutes ago, the horn could be heard close on four miles away. Compulsory that it sounds its horn, but what's it like for those closer than me?


I used to live backing onto a railway line - didn't notice it after a while. Mind you, both my babies made train noises before they spoke.


----------



## classic33 (3 Nov 2018)

Julia9054 said:


> I used to live backing onto a railway line - didn't notice it after a while. Mind you, both my babies made train noises before they spoke.


Just a way of telling the time, 00:20 - 00:25 every morning.


----------



## Phaeton (3 Nov 2018)

mjr said:


> Maybe churches which still ring the bells overnight despite the various laws should be clearly marked so prospective residents will know?


Please stop being fixated about Churches, this is wider than just Churches, it covers all sorts of things, village halls, farm yards, diaries, airports, it's about people moving into an area where there is known noise & then complaining about the noise.


----------



## Mugshot (3 Nov 2018)

classic33 said:


> less than 800 yards from me all year round





mjr said:


> There are cows are less than 500m from my home





classic33 said:


> I can go 200 yards in the opposite direction, and get cows now.


This is awesome, a cow off!
Someone will have one in the attic, tap dancing on a drum kit all night before long.


----------



## Edwardoka (3 Nov 2018)

classic33 said:


> That'd be disrespect, nothing else.


Would it still be disrespectful if it was Christian metal?

* To the churchgoers, I mean. The existence of Christian metal is disrespectful to an entire genre of music


----------



## screenman (3 Nov 2018)

Windsor Castle, who thought would be a good idea building it so close to Heathrow.


----------



## DCBassman (3 Nov 2018)

Drago said:


> Going off topic a litte (it is my thread after all  ) The village where my eldest daughter lives has a lovely old church. The bells have been chiming there since the 1400hs, and chiming the hour since the late 1700s. A wonderful piece of history, much beloved by the locals.
> 
> But lo! Along comes Johnny property developer, and a dozen of so "executive" homes are built on a piece of scrap land. You know the sort, made from Lego, all slightly different but still identikit looking, on a parcel of land barely bigger than the house itself, obligatory 5 series/Jag F Pace parked outside? Anyway, people who like paying top dollar to be crammed in with their like minded systems analysts and middle managers aren't the sort who are tolerant of noise, and thanks to a few complaints by the new lot the environmental health folk have had no choice but to silence the bells. If even a single person complains, and the complaint is found to be genuine, they have to act - the fact the noise was present 600 years before they moved in and is positively welcomed by the other 498 villagers is neither here nor there.



We rock musicians have this problem with venues of long standing. One closed to music was due to a very ornery copper who bought a house next door but one to a pub that had been doing music for decades. It never recovered as a business. Some others where this has been attempted, the moaner has been seen off before paper can be moved. A generally unpleasant way to behave, from both sides...


----------



## DCBassman (3 Nov 2018)

Edwardoka said:


> The existence of Christian metal is disrespectful to an entire genre of music


Quite.


----------



## screenman (3 Nov 2018)

Mugshot said:


> This is awesome, a cow off!
> Someone will have one in the attic, tap dancing on a drum kit all night before long.



I did not know you had been in my house.


----------



## Drago (3 Nov 2018)

At any given time of day I have a sizeable slice of cow digesting in my stomach.


----------



## raleighnut (3 Nov 2018)

Edwardoka said:


> Would it still be disrespectful if it was Christian metal?
> 
> * To the churchgoers, I mean. The existence of Christian metal is disrespectful to an entire genre of music



View: https://youtu.be/vI32XXo_hm0


----------



## mjr (3 Nov 2018)

Phaeton said:


> Please stop being fixated about Churches, this is wider than just Churches, it covers all sorts of things, village halls, farm yards, diaries, airports, it's about people moving into an area where there is known noise & then complaining about the noise.


Most of those are intermittent and/or much more obviously noisy. Plenty of churches either don't have automatic bells or don't ring them overnight. Also, the bell noise is not a core part of their function.

I'm not fixated but they are a pretty unusual problem and people seem to go all irrational in defence of them, almost religious, for some reason.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (3 Nov 2018)

classic33 said:


> On a similar note.
> How do you legally keep cattle quiet during the hours of darkness?
> 
> Explain what's dodgy/illega about a church letting people know the time. You've classed it as a "dodgy practice".



Have you never heard the phrase quiet as a moos?


----------



## Seevio (4 Nov 2018)

Phaeton said:


> ...I still maintain, that if something is there when you move in tough, you should have moved somewhere else, you should forgo the right to complain, if it was new after the event then fine.


The law sort of disagrees. As far as I can work it out, it depends on whether you are in an area where you could reasonably expect a nuisance. Wiki linky.


----------



## Phaeton (4 Nov 2018)

Seevio said:


> The law sort of disagrees.


But we all know the law is an Ass


----------



## DCBassman (4 Nov 2018)

Phaeton said:


> But we all know the law is an Ass


In this instance, the law is a severely dim ass.


----------



## tyred (4 Nov 2018)

Drago said:


> At any given time of day I have a sizeable slice of cow digesting in my stomach.


Does it dance or play the drums?


----------



## Ming the Merciless (4 Nov 2018)

Phaeton said:


> But we all know the law is an Ass



And Asses can be bloody noisy.


----------



## mjr (4 Nov 2018)

YukonBoy said:


> And Asses can be bloody noisy.


Particularly if one eats as much cow as @Drago


----------



## ColinJ (3 Dec 2018)

ColinJ said:


> Let's see how many weeks it takes the council to get round to processing my complaint! (If they haven't done anything by the New Year then I will push harder.)


I finally got a reply today.

The council said that these planning issues take a long time to resolve, but they _are _investigating and they _will _update me when they have news.


----------



## classic33 (4 Dec 2018)

ColinJ said:


> I finally got a reply today.
> 
> The council said that these planning issues take a long time to resolve, but they _are _investigating and they _will _update me when they have news.


Same answer I was given when I asked earlier this year. No response to date though, with regards what they plan on doing about it. It was there for over a year before it opened.

Copy in Coun. Daniel sutherland in any future requests.


----------



## Johnno260 (8 Dec 2018)

That was fun.. lady in a BMW pulled out a pub car park this morning right in front of me, she looked and still pulled out, I hit the brakes and managed to stop but in the process dropped the bike, somehow I stayed on my feet no idea how.

Old guy walking towards me tried to flag her down and stepped into the road she just floored it and went round him with her hand on the horn.

Bikes ok just some scuffed paint work/pedals and I have some bruises and scrapes on my calf’s. 

Car behind and the old man and his wife were fantastic checking to make sure I was ok.

Kinda sums up my year in the saddle so far, it’s my fault for posting that in general I feel safe on the roads around my home.

I didn’t get her plate I was to preoccupied with not hitting the deck, and then getting out the road


----------



## Drago (8 Dec 2018)

Johnno260 said:


> That was fun.. lady in a BMW pulled out a pub car park this morning right in front of me, she looked and still pulled out, I hit the brakes and managed to stop but in the process dropped the bike, somehow I stayed on my feet no idea how.
> 
> Old guy walking towards me tried to flag her down and stepped into the road she just floored it and went round him with her hand on the horn.
> 
> ...



You should report that. She's failed to stop at a damage RTC, an offence.


----------



## Johnno260 (8 Dec 2018)

Drago said:


> You should report that. She's failed to stop at a damage RTC, an offence.



I could try and see if the station is open today.


----------



## mustang1 (8 Dec 2018)

20 minutes walk to local shop, then another 20 minutes back. If I didn't have a bike, I too would take the car. My travel time would be 10 minutes including parking time and I'd have an extra half hour to watch TV or play PS4. Or to get to work.

More people would take the bike if they had an e-bike, but they're about a grand at least and if they already have a car, then why not use that?

So in conclusion, while I and many others here would take the bike, I fully get why the majority out there would not.


----------



## Drago (8 Dec 2018)

What wrong with a 20 minute walk to the shop? That's a mile. Are people that lazy that a mile and back is too much?

Don't answer that - we know it is.


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (8 Dec 2018)

Drago said:


> What wrong with a 20 minute walk to the shop? That's a mile. Are people that lazy that a mile and back is too much?.



It's not just the walking, it's also not wanting to carry the shopping back afterwards! "what you seriously expect me to walk a whole mile there, AND walk a whole mile back with two bags of shopping? 
The majority of people these days are extremely lazy. They won't walk to the shops if they can avoid it. They definitely won't walk back with shopping - at Iceland they leave it in their trolley and get it delivered later!


----------



## screenman (8 Dec 2018)

Drago said:


> What wrong with a 20 minute walk to the shop? That's a mile. Are people that lazy that a mile and back is too much?
> 
> Don't answer that - we know it is.



Time restraints, maybe. Now you know I am with you on this but I fully understand not all people have as much spare time available.


----------



## Drago (8 Dec 2018)

Time restraints my arriss. There's always time to waste on twitbook or watching tv....or taking the car to be service, repaired etc.


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (8 Dec 2018)

It's not really much quicker taking the car to the supermarket by the time I've driven there and found a parking space. The only advantage is being able to carry heavy or bulky objects. I only drive if I'm getting a large heavy amount of shopping. Most times I just hoof it, sometimes I'll take a hack bike with a greengrocer plastic crate strapped to the rear rack to stick the shopping in.


----------



## screenman (8 Dec 2018)

Drago said:


> Time restraints my arriss. There's always time to waste on twitbook or watching tv....or taking the car to be service, repaired etc.



But not as much time as you have, take my eldest, leaves home at 6.45am and returns at 7pm, not much time to walk the 3 miles to the nearest shop.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (8 Dec 2018)

screenman said:


> But not as much time as you have, take my eldest, leaves home at 6.45am and returns at 7pm, not much time to walk the 3 miles to the nearest shop.



Perfect distance to ensure they get their daily exercise requirement in.


----------



## screenman (8 Dec 2018)

YukonBoy said:


> Perfect distance to ensure they get their daily exercise requirement in.[/QUOTE
> 
> My point is we have to view this from other people's lives, not just our own.


----------



## Drago (8 Dec 2018)

View it from their lazy lives? There s no dressing it up, no point beating about the bush - in most cases people a simply too bone idle lazy to not drive. Period.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (8 Dec 2018)

Exactly the minimum exercise a day is recommended at 1 hour of moderate. A 3 mile walk would help meet that minimum.


----------



## mjr (8 Dec 2018)

Drago said:


> Time restraints my arriss. There's always time to waste on twitbook or watching tv....or taking the car to be service, repaired etc.


Or time to sit in the gym!


----------



## classic33 (8 Dec 2018)

YukonBoy said:


> Perfect distance to ensure they get their daily exercise requirement in.


There's the three mile walk back.

Naismiths Rule gives a distance of three miles in one hour, plus 15 minutes for every 500 feet of climbing and ignore the descents(time wise) unless very steep.


----------



## Drago (8 Dec 2018)

mjr said:


> Or time to sit in the gym!



And don't get me started about driving to the gym!!!


----------



## screenman (8 Dec 2018)

Drago said:


> View it from their lazy lives? There s no dressing it up, no point beating about the bush - in most cases people a simply too bone idle lazy to not drive. Period.



The people I am talking about are not lazy, just time short as the one example I have listed is busy sorting other people's kids problems out, he is also extremely fit.


----------



## Drago (8 Dec 2018)

Ah, the only person in the World with kids. I'm sorry, these are excuses, not genuine objections.


----------



## screenman (8 Dec 2018)

Drago said:


> Ah, the only person in the World with kids. I'm sorry, these are excuses, not genuine objections.



No but you may be one of the few people who retired at 48. Also my lad is busy sorting other people's kids problems out not his own. 

I have just been out for dinner with a Dutch couple, they wondered how our generation made such a mess of the UK transport network.


----------



## screenman (8 Dec 2018)

I measured the school car parking line the other day 1/3 mile long, I would imagine at least half of that was parents from our small village, obesity is a huge problem in these parts as parents say they cannot afford to feed their children properly.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (8 Dec 2018)

Cars are a dusaster for this country. Only the blind can't see it yet.


----------



## screenman (8 Dec 2018)

YukonBoy said:


> Cars are a dusaster for this country. Only the blind can't see it yet.



We let it happen, in fact all of us over a certain age are partially to blame.


----------



## screenman (8 Dec 2018)

screenman said:


> We let it happen, in fact all of us over a certain age are partially to blame.


----------



## briantrumpet (9 Dec 2018)

mjr said:


> Or time to sit in the gym!


There was an unintentionally funny local news item (is that tautological?) a few years ago from a very cross man who got stuck in a traffic jam, whilst driving the four miles to the gym... probably to sit on a static bike in a spin class...


----------



## CXRAndy (9 Dec 2018)

In the spring/summer months I will regularly cycle the 8/9 miles to the local town on the back roads to drop of bits and bobs. Do a little shopping to carry back on the handlebars. Winter I take our EV car.


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (9 Dec 2018)

YukonBoy said:


> Cars are a dusaster for this country. Only the blind can't see it yet.



There's nothing wrong with cars. They are very useful objects. The real problem is the bone idle muppets who insist on driving one for trivial journeys of a mile or less that could easily be done on foot. There's little if any time saving over such a short distance, and it doesn't do your car any good doing loads of short journeys starting with a cold engine.
Even a lot of non-drivers are equally lazy - I know people who will stand at the bus stop and wait for a bus to turn up to travel just three or four stops down the road, a distance that could be walked in ten minutes. And they seem happy to pay the fare just to avoid using their legs. They aren't even saving any time unless the bus happens to turn up the minute they get to the stop. The mentality of large sections of the population is beyond me!


----------



## Ming the Merciless (9 Dec 2018)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> There's nothing wrong with cars. They are very useful objects. The real problem is the bone idle muppets who insist on driving one for trivial journeys of a mile or less that could easily be done on foot. There's little if any time saving over such a short distance, and it doesn't do your car any good doing loads of short journeys starting with a cold engine.
> Even a lot of non-drivers are equally lazy - I know people who will stand at the bus stop and wait for a bus to turn up to travel just three or four stops down the road, a distance that could be walked in ten minutes. And they seem happy to pay the fare just to avoid using their legs. They aren't even saving any time unless the bus happens to turn up the minute they get to the stop. The mentality of large sections of the population is beyond me!



All those roads also halved in width because of parked cars obstructing the highway. Even when not in use they are causing problems.


----------



## Drago (9 Dec 2018)

I see in the paper today that t'is reckoned that road traffic is the biggest single cause of air pollution in the UK. 27% or journeys are commuting, 40% for some kind of non co muting driving. The rest is commericial vehjcles.

Suddenly the old "don't have the time" excuse seems a bit hollow when measured against to 20-40,000 people a year that die of clauses related to air pollution. To know that 67% of the biggest dorm of air pollution is caused by bone heel laziness is beyond shocking. So shocking that I'm going to talk to Mrs D about me going electric, as she has already suggested to me.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (9 Dec 2018)

Indeed the don't have time brigade are just trying to defend their regularly polluting the air and causing early deaths of many, including themselves. If they did not drive they would have an extra 20 years of time to use.


----------



## Drago (9 Dec 2018)

Beautifully put, Mr Boy, beautifully put.


----------



## screenman (9 Dec 2018)

I am surprised you lot do not feel guilty using electricity that you do not need to.


----------



## screenman (9 Dec 2018)

Wood burners, what on earth do some people out on them.


----------



## Drago (9 Dec 2018)

Not seen any wood burners driving to school lately.


----------



## classic33 (9 Dec 2018)

Drago said:


> Not seen any wood burners driving to school lately.


Either too young to drive, or too old for school.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (9 Dec 2018)

screenman said:


> I am surprised you lot do not feel guilty using electricity that you do not need to.



Solar and wind power self sufficient.


----------



## Slick (9 Dec 2018)

YukonBoy said:


> Solar and wind power self sufficient.


I never realised you were Scottish.


----------



## screenman (9 Dec 2018)

Slick said:


> I never realised you were Scottish.



No generator? A good friend of ours only 2 miles from here is off grid in a new build, he does have a back up gennie for the batteries.


----------



## Slick (9 Dec 2018)

screenman said:


> No generator? A good friend of ours only 2 miles from here is off grid in a new build, he does have a back up gennie for the batteries.


No need to be off the grid up here to only use renewables.


----------



## screenman (9 Dec 2018)

briantrumpet said:


> There was an unintentionally funny local news item (is that tautological?) a few years ago from a very cross man who got stuck in a traffic jam, whilst driving the four miles to the gym... probably to sit on a static bike in a spin class...



Maybe he wanted an upper body workout.

For every Google search you could travel 3 inches by car on the power used, we all know short journeys and bad news.


----------



## snorri (9 Dec 2018)

Drago said:


> Not seen any wood burners driving to school lately.


There's a simple answer to that, reduced visibility due to the smoke they are emitting.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (9 Dec 2018)

snorri said:


> There's a simple answer to that, reduced visibility due to the smoke they are emitting.



Wood burners do log quite a few miles each year though.


----------



## Drago (9 Dec 2018)

YukonBoy said:


> Wood burners do log quite a few miles each year though.



@YukonBoy is the winner of the coveted Post of the Day award.


----------



## classic33 (9 Dec 2018)

snorri said:


> There's a simple answer to that, reduced visibility due to the smoke they are emitting.


Their heavy smoking does them no favours.


----------



## Drago (9 Dec 2018)

But in all seriousness, that's the typically facile argument trotted out by the car-lazy to justify maintaining the status quo - "someone somewhere else is also doing a spot of pollution, so we should be allowed to carry on as normal." The American gun death problem demonstrates the ridiculousness of that line of reasoning.


----------



## tyred (9 Dec 2018)

YukonBoy said:


> Wood burners do log quite a few miles each year though.


Totally off topic but a car can run on charcoal. It was done in some places (from memory, can't remember all the details off the top of my head) in WWII by burning charcoal in restricted air supply and feeding the resulting CO into the carburettor and it then ignited in the combustion chamber to produce CO2 and to power the engine. The French in particular also used it to power tractors in this way. 

I can't imagine it would produce much power in comparison to petrol but as charcoal is made from wood it is theoretically possible to have a wood-powered car.


----------



## tyred (9 Dec 2018)

I walk 1.8 miles to work each day. It only takes me about 30 minutes. I could cycle but the one way system and other traffic restrictions around here mean I can't use the direct route (not legally at least) and the road I would end up cycling would take me through 3 major multilane roundabouts which I don't fancy when kamikaze commuters are on the loose in their tin boxes.

There are a few people I work with who lives closer to work than I do that drive to work. I endlessly get met with surprise when I tell people where I walk from and people suggest I should learn to drive or buy I car. I can drive and have a car sitting outside right now, I just choose not to use it around town except on the rare occasions I have something heavy to transport.

Since September, I work in a large site with over a thousand employees and acres of space is given over to provide parking so the car park is pretty large. Some people will come to work much earlier than they need to so they can park close to the door. The first two hours of my working day involve listening to my colleagues moan about traffic, how far away from the office door they had to park and other car-commuting gripes. People moan about how far they have to walk to the canteen, the woman who sits behind me is forever giving out that her feet hurt and that she is so tired after walking to the canteen for a cup of tea - the distance is about two hundred yards.

Prior to September and the new site large enough to bring everyone together under one roof being ready, employees were based in a number of locations around the town. I was in one on a side street just off the main street. I also walked there. We were all issued with free passes for a town centre car park nearby (I never once used mine in the fourteen months we were based there). Most people were so lazy that they never used the free parking but caused problems by blocking access roads to other businesses and residential areas and generally parking where they shouldn't because the car park was too far away to walk and the hill was too steep to walk up (the company told us the distance was 320 metres, I have no reason to doubt that, seems about right and this enormously steep hill can be climbed can be climbed by yours truely on a sit up and beg three speed bike in top gear, it's just a gentle slope). People also used to drive down the town at dinner time or whatever if they wanted something from the shops on the main street. I could walk to the main street in five minutes. Most of the people on my team who were based there are ten or more years younger than me were out of breath walking up the stairs.

Based purely on my observation of my work colleagues, it would be almost impossible to stop people making stupidly short journeys by cars as they genuinely do believe they are justified.

I am not anti-car as such, I do own one (two actually but my VW is currently declared of the road awaiting restoration) and have an interest, in classic cars in particular and I do enjoy the freedom it can bring in making random trips to places too far away to cycle but I do not believe they should not be used for short journeys around town.

Apparently 40% of car journeys in Ireland are less than 2KM. If that is actually true, 40% of traffic congestion could evaporate if people re-discovered the use of their legs.....I accept there are people who cannot walk any great distance through health problems or old age but the huge majority are just lazy lumps.


----------



## Drago (10 Dec 2018)

Today I cycle 9 miles into town, dumped my bike at a mates house, walked half mile to my physio appointment, got beaten up by the physio, then did the journey in reverse. I'm nothing special and within spitting distance of 50, carrying an injury, and cycled back in some discomfort after the physio, but I still did it. If I can do it, any other able bodied person can - any objections are excuses and laziness.


----------



## snorri (10 Dec 2018)

Drago said:


> I'm nothing special and within spitting distance of 50, carrying an injury, and cycled back in some discomfort after the physio, but I still did it. If I can do it, any other able bodied person can - any objections are excuses and laziness.


Physios. 
Here is me lying helpless and I can't get an appointment with mine 'cos their waiting rooms are full of able bodied persons.


----------



## screenman (10 Dec 2018)

Drago said:


> Today I cycle 9 miles into town, dumped my bike at a mates house, walked half mile to my physio appointment, got beaten up by the physio, then did the journey in reverse. I'm nothing special and within spitting distance of 50, carrying an injury, and cycled back in some discomfort after the physio, but I still did it. If I can do it, any other able bodied person can - any objections are excuses and laziness.



Whilst I agree with your sentiments, you did not have to put a 10 hour working day in as well.


----------



## Drago (10 Dec 2018)

screenman said:


> Whilst I agree with your sentiments, you did not have to put a 10 hour working day in as well.



Quite right - I used to have to do 12 hour days, and cycle to physio appointments before or after (or during, if the boss was kindly). Hell, 10 hour days is positively part time to those who've served the Queen. I wasn't born retired you know.

Flavour them any way you like, they're nothing more substantive than mere excuses.

Congest, pollute, and generally ravage our planet in any way you see fit, just so long as you've worked a 10 hour day to justify it.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (10 Dec 2018)

screenman said:


> Whilst I agree with your sentiments, you did not have to put a 10 hour working day in as well.



Why on earth would 10 hours of work stop you cycling before or after? I did that for 20 years.


----------



## Slick (10 Dec 2018)

YukonBoy said:


> Why on earth would 10 hours of work stop you cycling before or after? I did that for 20 years.


Not physical. 

You will get the odd plum who claims it was, but it obviously wasn't what I would call physical.


----------



## screenman (10 Dec 2018)

YukonBoy said:


> Why on earth would 10 hours of work stop you cycling before or after? I did that for 20 years.



I was replying to Drago's post.

There is no excuse for a lot of car journeys in the UK, I am not defending lazy people at all, just pointing out that not everybody has 24 hours a day to do what they will with it. I am not even sure Drago is not having a game with us, his motorbike does does less MPG than our petrol car


----------



## classic33 (10 Dec 2018)

Slick said:


> Not physical.
> 
> You will get the odd plum who claims it was, but it obviously wasn't what I would call physical.


Spend the day turning a field by fork, walk two miles home, get a cuppa whilst you get the dinner on. Finish that and the clearing up, grab a cuppa. Then having gone to bed less than an hour before, be outside, dressed, trying to get the innards of a cow back in, via their exit route. Knowing you've to turn the field later that morning.

Hand the job over to the vet when they appear and go and get a cuppa. Then head back home and get a cuppa, before going to bed for the second time that morning.


----------



## Slick (10 Dec 2018)

classic33 said:


> Spend the day turning a field by fork, walk two miles home, get a cuppa whilst you get the dinner on. Finish that and the clearing up, grab a cuppa. Then having gone to bed less than an hour before, be outside, dressed, trying to get the innards of a cow back in, via their exit route. Knowing you've to turn the field later that morning.
> 
> Hand the job over to the vet when they appear and go and get a cuppa. Then head back home and get a cuppa, before going to bed for the second time that morning.


I'm not being funny or anything, but I worked a real physical job for 30 years and when I start I know I sou d like uncle Albert but there are loads of people who attended a physical job description but only a few who actually worked it and if you worked it there was nothing left for cycling. Sorry


----------



## Ming the Merciless (10 Dec 2018)

screenman said:


> I was replying to Drago's post.
> 
> There is no excuse for a lot of car journeys in the UK, I am not defending lazy people at all, just pointing out that not everybody has 24 hours a day to do what they will with it. I am not even sure Drago is not having a game with us, his motorbike does does less MPG than our petrol car



So what is your physical job that wipes you out so completely that you cannot ride a bike?


----------



## Slick (10 Dec 2018)

YukonBoy said:


> So what is your physical job that wipes you out so completely that you cannot ride a bike?


What was yours that didn't?


----------



## Drago (10 Dec 2018)

My old Grandad used to cycle near on 30 miles each way to work as a park keeper until he retired, and didn't use it as an excuse for not doing something.

People are lazy, and this idea that its ok to pollute the planet and ravage its resources because you've been at work all day is just staggering. There aren't enough rare earth metals to make the batteries and circuits to replace every internal combustion car one for one with an electric one - people are going to get a serious shock, probably within my lifetime, when they can't lazy arriss drive a car everywhere because there won't be enough of them, and they'll then be forced to use other arrangements. They will have no choice, and all the excuses will be hollow and pointless, just as excuses didn't help during the battle of Britain, just as they didn't help during the plague, just as they didn't help when William the Conquerer popped in for a bit of light hearted conquering. 

Sooner or later, always, inevitably, excuses get exposed for the hollow lies they really are.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (10 Dec 2018)

Slick said:


> What was yours that didn't?



Worked in ship building, welding.


----------



## screenman (10 Dec 2018)

YukonBoy said:


> So what is your physical job that wipes you out so completely that you cannot ride a bike?



I feel you have confused me with someone else. I swim six miles a week, I gym twice a week and cycle quite a lot, I also walk to the shops. For my paid fun I did dents in cars. I dislike lazy people and their attitudes. I am also aware the some people work long hours have family commitments, long commutes, health problems etc.


----------



## Drago (10 Dec 2018)

YukonBoy said:


> So what is your physical job that wipes you out so completely that you cannot ride a bike?



Long distance bike tester?


----------



## Slick (10 Dec 2018)

YukonBoy said:


> Worked in ship building, welding.


Sorry, worked beside many a welder down the docks and whilst staying as still as possible may sound physical to some it doesn't to me.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (10 Dec 2018)

Slick said:


> Sorry, worked beside many a welder down the docks and whilst staying as still as possible may sound physical to some it doesn't to me.



So we are still waiting for this 10 hour job that is so draining that cycling is not possible. Have people forgotten that cycling to and from all sorts of physical jobs was the norm?


----------



## Ming the Merciless (10 Dec 2018)

Drago said:


> Long distance bike tester?



Treadmill tester?


----------



## Slick (10 Dec 2018)

YukonBoy said:


> So we are still waiting for this 10 hour job that is so draining that cycling is not possible. Have people forgotten that cycling to and from all sorts of physical jobs was the norm?


I am still a scaffolder, ship building, construction, oil and gas then ran my own show. If there was anything left you were doing it wrong.


----------



## Slick (10 Dec 2018)

YukonBoy said:


> So we are still waiting for this 10 hour job that is so draining that cycling is not possible. Have people forgotten that cycling to and from all sorts of physical jobs was the norm?


10 hours was a half shift.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (10 Dec 2018)

Slick said:


> 10 hours was a half shift.



Bollocks


----------



## Ming the Merciless (10 Dec 2018)

Slick said:


> I am still a scaffolder, ship building, construction, oil and gas then ran my own show. If there was anything left you were doing it wrong.



Most scaffolders i know are down pub by mid afternoon.


----------



## screenman (10 Dec 2018)

YukonBoy said:


> So we are still waiting for this 10 hour job that is so draining that cycling is not possible. Have people forgotten that cycling to and from all sorts of physical jobs was the norm?



It is not about being tired after a 10 hour job along with 2 hours of commuting, it is the demand on time for other commitments.


----------



## Slick (10 Dec 2018)

YukonBoy said:


> Bollocks


16's were the norm offshore. Running my own business meant I everyone finished when the job was completed not when the clock struck a particular hour. 

The fact you don't recognise this speaks volumes as to why we're poles apart.


----------



## Slick (10 Dec 2018)

YukonBoy said:


> Most scaffolders i know are down pub by mid afternoon.


Most?


----------



## screenman (10 Dec 2018)

YukonBoy said:


> Most scaffolders i know are down pub by mid afternoon.



I did scaffolding on Ivy Bridge, I rode to work trained at night and raced at weekends, I was though in my teens.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (10 Dec 2018)

Slick said:


> 16's were the norm offshore. Running my own business meant I everyone finished when the job was completed not when the clock struck a particular hour.
> 
> The fact you don't recognise this speaks volumes as to why we're poles apart.



So not much opportunity for cycling then and of course you will have had olenty if days off else the working time directives are broken.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (10 Dec 2018)

screenman said:


> I did scaffolding on Ivy Bridge, I rode to work trained at night and raced at weekends, I was though in my teens.



So not too knackered to cycle then! QED.


----------



## Slick (10 Dec 2018)

YukonBoy said:


> So not much opportunity for cycling then and of course you will have had olenty if days off else the working time directives are broken.


They weren't even written for most if it. Ffs 

And yes, they were smashed for the rest of it.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (10 Dec 2018)

Slick said:


> They weren't even written for most if it. Ffs
> 
> And yes, they were smashed for the rest of it.



But health and safety was. 96 hour weeks are good for no one.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (10 Dec 2018)

Though understand you are taking about stuff more than 20 years ago.


----------



## screenman (10 Dec 2018)

YukonBoy said:


> So not too knackered to cycle then! QED.



I do not think I mentioned knackered for cycling, I am talking about time short.


----------



## Slick (10 Dec 2018)

YukonBoy said:


> But health and safety was. 96 hour weeks are good for no one.


You must be a bit younger than me as I worked when more was better and still try and secure SAS.


----------



## Slick (10 Dec 2018)

YukonBoy said:


> Though understand you are taking about stuff more than 20 years ago.


I'm away from the coal face coming on 5 years.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (10 Dec 2018)

screenman said:


> I do not think I mentioned knackered for cycling, I am talking about time short.



But a 10 hour working day does not make you time short. That is the typical working day for millions. No big deal.


----------



## screenman (10 Dec 2018)

YukonBoy said:


> But a 10 hour working day does not make you time short. That is the typical working day for millions. No big deal.



You forgot about commuting time, family time etc.


----------



## ColinJ (16 Apr 2019)

Well, I haven't yet had an official message from the council that the missing bike parking at the new Lidl in Todmorden has been dealt with, but I discovered yesterday that it finally _HAS _been, 6 months after my complaint!






Good:

The stands are simple but effective.
Room for 11 bikes, which is more bikes than I have ever seen at one time at Lidl in Todmorden. (12 if someone uses the far side of stand #6, but that would risk their bike being damaged by a careless driver parking where the black car is.)

Not so good:

The stands ideally should have been put where that campervan is about to park. The bikes would then be visible from within the store. I tried checking and could only see my bike from the far side of the store, by the entrance. Everywhere else, it was hidden by the black car. Bike thieves would be less likely to be spotted in the current location than in full view from the store, and where much of the 'footfall' is. (Admittedly, there is a car parking area round to the left of the building as I was facing it. I suppose we should grateful that the bike stands have not been tucked away round there, completely out of sight!)
They are uncovered. I'm not too fussed about that because I avoid cycling to the shops in the rain, but it would have been nice if they had spent a little more and covered them.

Anyway, at least the stands are there now.

[_Whispers ... Most of the time, I am able to lock my bike to a hoop protecting a lamppost next to the trolley park opposite the store entrance. That is nearer the entrance and more public (and therefore more secure) than the new stands so I will carry on using it unless one of the other locals has beaten me to it._ ]


----------



## BorderReiver (16 Apr 2019)

Stand by for complaints from the motoring lobby that they have lost 2 parking spaces. (Tongue only slightly in cheek.) Interesting that 11 bikes can be parked in the same space as two cars.


----------



## ColinJ (16 Apr 2019)

BorderReiver said:


> Stand by for complaints from the motoring lobby that they have lost 2 parking spaces. (Tongue only slightly in cheek.) Interesting that 11 bikes can be parked in the same space as two cars.


Ha ha - maybe! There are still over 130 car parking spaces for what is only a medium-sized store. Surprisingly though, I have seen the car park almost full on a Sunday so somebody _could _end up moaning about those 2 lost spaces. (And probably park across the yellow cross-hatched area!)

But as you point out - 11 people cycling there and using 2 car spaces beats 11 people driving there and using 11 spaces.


----------



## mjr (16 Apr 2019)

Disappointing, because you can usually get 10 bikes in 1 car's space:





Best we had was a redrawing of a car park to add 40 cycle spaces for the loss of 1 car space.


----------



## classic33 (17 Apr 2019)

mjr said:


> Disappointing, because you can usually get 10 bikes in 1 car's space:
> View attachment 462669
> 
> 
> Best we had was a redrawing of a car park to add 40 cycle spaces for the loss of 1 car space.


To do it like that stand allows, you'd have two rows running the length of the two "lost" spaces. With an entrance on one end only.


----------



## ColinJ (17 Apr 2019)

I suppose that they could have arranged it as 2 rows of 3 and only used up one car's worth of space, but then 2 bikes would have been in the danger zone!

PS Which is what classic was getting at - it's late.


----------



## classic33 (17 Apr 2019)

ColinJ said:


> I suppose that they could have arranged it as 2 rows of 3 and only used up one car's worth of space, but then 2 bikes would have been in the danger zone!
> 
> PS Which is what classic was getting at -* it's late. *


Still in the first hour, it's early.


----------



## ColinJ (17 Apr 2019)

classic33 said:


> Still in the first hour, it's early.


I've been getting into your habits and my day is drifting later and later. I'm trying to reverse the process by...

Yeah, by staying on the computer until 01:00-ish and then putting the TV on. Aaargh - I'm doing it again - see ya, I'm off!


----------



## classic33 (17 Apr 2019)

ColinJ said:


> I've been getting into your habits and my day is drifting later and later. I'm trying to reverse the process by...
> 
> Yeah, by staying on the computer until 01:00-ish and then putting the TV on. Aaargh - I'm doing it again - see ya, I'm off!


Sithi


----------



## biking_fox (17 Apr 2019)

mjr said:


> Disappointing, because you can usually get 10 bikes in 1 car's space:
> View attachment 462669
> 
> 
> Best we had was a redrawing of a car park to add 40 cycle spaces for the loss of 1 car space.



I've found you can't always get any bikes into one of those, the yellow car profile is too close to the end of the loop and the loops too close to the kerb, so that at best you can get a couple slantways in. I like the concept, but as with too much cycling infrastructure the implementation is poor.


----------



## mjr (17 Apr 2019)

biking_fox said:


> I've found you can't always get any bikes into one of those, the yellow car profile is too close to the end of the loop and the loops too close to the kerb, so that at best you can get a couple slantways in. I like the concept, but as with too much cycling infrastructure the implementation is poor.


Yeah implementation can break things and I guess installation is sometimes left to the same highways departments who have been making boneheaded mistakes to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory for years.


----------



## classic33 (17 Apr 2019)

mjr said:


> Yeah implementation can break things and I guess installation is sometimes left to the same highways departments who have been making boneheaded mistakes to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory for years.


In a car park, as in the case mentioned, it'd be nothing to do with any highway department. It'd come down to the developers and the owners.


----------



## mjr (17 Apr 2019)

classic33 said:


> In a car park, as in the case mentioned, it'd be nothing to do with any highway department. It'd come down to the developers and the owners.


I'm sure most shop chains have estates or facilities departments serving in that role.

Also, I've yet to see the car shapes being commented upon used by anyone besides government.


----------



## classic33 (17 Apr 2019)

mjr said:


> I'm sure most shop chains have estates or facilities departments serving in that role.
> 
> Also, I've yet to see the car shapes being commented upon used by anyone besides government.


Pointless posting it then, given the ones mentioned is on private land, not actually owned by the supermarket.


----------



## mjr (17 Apr 2019)

classic33 said:


> Pointless posting it then, given the ones mentioned is on private land, not actually owned by the supermarket.


More point than posting a tale of agricultural exploits!


----------



## classic33 (17 Apr 2019)

mjr said:


> More point than posting a tale of agricultural exploits!


On this thread, it was used to demonstrate the noise made by cattle. No exploit in living near open country.


----------

