# What's fair compensation?



## Marli (21 Jan 2021)

Last year a car knocked me off my bike and the driver and the insurance company accepted fault. I didn't accept the compensation from the insurance company - which was 325GDP. My bike was damaged and I had bumps and bruises, most lasting (3-4 months) was what my doctor described as ulna nerve injury, where I landed on my elbow causing numbness and tingling in my lower arm/hand. That has now gone, although I do get an achy elbow at times. I didn't receive any treatment for my injuries - in fact the GP said there wasn't any and that time was the antidote. The insurance company made me feel like a fraud because I couldn't produce the receipts for my 3 year old bike or the coat I was wearing (the insurance 'customer care' representative told me she kept all her receipts)! I don't think my injuries, which to be fair did not affect my work, were considered at all. It was more about not doing things that I usually do like pilates - and I haven't yet wanted/had the courage to get back on my bike. I did contact a few solicitors initially, but now think I might just try the small claims court. The thing is, apart from the repair of my bike, what's a fair claim?


----------



## Joffey (21 Jan 2021)

Have they just not offered another amount? Or was it take the £325 or nothing?


----------



## Chris S (21 Jan 2021)

Did you contact Levine's? They specialize in this sort of thing. They can still tell you what sort of compensation you should get even if you don't instruct them.
https://www.levenes.co.uk/personal-injury/cycle-injury-claims/


----------



## vickster (21 Jan 2021)

You need a solicitor for any injury claim, you can’t do it through small claims as you’ll need medical reports etc.
Note a no win no fee company will take a percentage.
The good news is you have 3 years to submit a claim
Do you have legal cover through your home insurance? Presuming you’re not a member of British Cycling or Cycling UK so you’ll need to contact a specialist PI firm that has experience on cycling injuries. Bott & Co are one such company.
https://www.bottonline.co.uk/road-t...-much-compensation-claim-for-bicycle-accident

There’s no guarantee they’ll take your case as there’s not much financial incentive as any sum will be small. Worth a few phone calls though.

there’s info here
https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/accident-advice.226114/


----------



## PaulSB (21 Jan 2021)

Years ago I was awarded £3000 after being knocked off my bike. No damage to the bike or clothing but I had damage to the tendon which runs across the palm from the base of the thumb. Took about six months to heal and allow me to grip properly.

The personal injury legal costs were covered by the other party.


----------



## icowden (21 Jan 2021)

Marli said:


> I did contact a few solicitors initially, but now think I might just try the small claims court. The thing is, apart from the repair of my bike, what's a fair claim?



As Vickster said, you will need to go through a Solicitor. The sum you were offered by the insurance company is a "go away" sum. The minimum they think you might take to go away and not instruct a solicitor. Personal Injury claims can be very slow, but as fault has already been admitted, it's just a matter of pursuing the compensation. You don't need receipts for your coat or bike. It would be perfectly acceptable to find the cost of buying the same coat and bike online to demonstrate the value of the products.

The compensation falls into two parts - compensation for injury and compensation for losses. The injury amount won't be huge, but a GP report will demonstrate that there was an injury. It could still however be a reasonable amount. A website I just clicked on suggested up to £3000 for a minor elbow injury (I think that is probably a little optimistic though).

The second part is losses. This will include the damage to the bike, the coat, and associated costs that you might have incurred. These can be all sorts and solicitors are very good at adding things in. For example, for the first few days if you couldnt' cook due to the elbow you might have had some takeouts which would have been more expensive than your regular meals. Missed work. Costs of physiotherapy, loss of amenity - couldn't ride bike for 6 weeks so had to pay for bus / taxi etc.

The solicitor will tot it all up and send it off to the other side. There will then be a series of offers to avoid having to go to court. Your solicitor will advise you if they think that you should take the offer. If you end up in court and the court decides to give you less than you were previously offered, that's tough luck.

You shouldn't need to go No Win No Fee, as you already have liability (therefore have won). It should just be a matter of a god solicitor getting your compensation and their costs from the insurers. You might have to pay for the GP report up front, that's about all.


----------



## Drago (21 Jan 2021)

13 years after an ulnar comrpession injury my fingers are still numb. Get a decent solicitor, one who can advise having injuries professionally assessed because it may take weeks, months or years to recover...or, as in my case, it may never.


----------



## Cycleops (21 Jan 2021)

Good advice from @icowden . There will be a lot of tooing and froing with offers and counter offers but you should be able get what you want.


----------



## vickster (21 Jan 2021)

If you have been affected psychologically, you can also discuss with the solicitor about getting a psychologist consult and report.

It really is crucial that you keep every receipt, as without it, you're unlikely to get a payout - if not, eg for the jacket you could produce a webpage showing the cost as well as taking pictures of your damaged jacket (but don't dispose of it). You are unlikely to get the full amount of a new one, unless it was new and you can prove that but might get something towards it.
Plus of course the receipt for any repairs to the bike. Unfortunately, they won't just take your word on any expenses incurred, you need proof


----------



## chris-suffolk (21 Jan 2021)

I was knocked of a few years back. Damage to bike was paid within a week, just needed a couple of quotes from shops. Damage to me went via the legal assistance on my home insurance, and needed Dr's checks and reports etc. They initially offered £1500, which I rejected, and after a couple more Dr reports it was upped to £8500, which I settled on.

Get a solicitor involved, and get them to instruct medical people, and keep persuing.

Good luck,


----------



## Dave Davenport (21 Jan 2021)

I got knocked off a few years ago, bike totalled but was very lucky to get away with bruises and scrapes. Told the driver if he gave me £500 for the bike I'd leave it at that but he wanted to go through insurance so I got a legal firm that advertised in the cycling mags involved. Ended up with £800 for the bike (new replacement) and £1600 for injuries which I think was the minimum for just soft tissue damage. It actually cost his insurance company about eight grand once all the costs were added in, if they'd offered me a grand first off I'd have taken it.


----------



## pjd57 (21 Jan 2021)

My own experience....
Knocked off, stitches to elbow.
Cracked rib and a lot of bruises.
I was ok to cycle to A&E for treatment.
Cycle Law Scotland looked after everything for me and I received £5500


----------



## Drago (21 Jan 2021)

chris-suffolk said:


> ...just needed a couple of quotes from shops.


As a point of order, if they try and insist on making you run around getting quotes from hither and thither, make sure you bill them for your time. 

Ive had this (when someone hit my parked car, not bicycle) and Mrs Myopia's insurers tried this with me. "Fine", I said, but once I told them that I'd be billing them for my time running round getting quotes, and my normal paid rate for rest day working was a smidge under £50 and hour, they soon changed their mind on that one.


----------



## HLaB (21 Jan 2021)

I was ran into the back by a driver that saw me apparently  Its was my cheap viking fixie. I felt sorry for the old lady and asked for £200 to replace it. A few days later the cops called her and what ever they said plus the fact I had an "awfully expensive bike" according to her husband made her elect to go through her insurance. The insurance company eventually came back with an offer just more than the OPs offer I haggled for a wee bit more and it was agreed to.

6 months later I was knocked off in London but on a more expensive bike but apart from a toggled wheel, cracked helmet and some minor damage to my jacket I escaped well. But the attitude of the driver and I was unsure about the damage had me elect to go straight down the insurance route. I replaced the wheel and cycled 100miles home the next day. But I had started the ball rolling. Their first claim was that they weren't even there. When I sent the police report they dropped that argument. It then spun on for a year until I saw a physio at the request of my lawyer. I told him about cycling home the next day so I couldn't have been too badly hurt but not surprisingly I did have a bruised hip and shoulder which lasted a few days. He must've have only reported the latter and within a week I had a cheque for 4 times as much as my first claim. The helmet wheel were more expensive but not 4 times more and the minor injuries were the same as before but that's the difference the lawyer 
route makes.


----------



## boydj (21 Jan 2021)

You should have a receipt for the repairs to the bike and any damaged clothing. This is the minimum you should be compensated for. If your injuries did not need medical treatment, then you can claim for pain and inconvenience. 

A couple of years ago I was sideswiped and ended up with a sore bum, which caused me to miss a club ride and a golf tie that week-end. I was compensated for the replacement saddle - asked to replace the nearly new one, which was slightly scuffed. I asked for, and received, £500 compensation for the sore bum, which seemed reasonable to me and the insurance company did not quibble - probably because they got off very lightly. Had the injuries been any worse, or had the insurance company been difficult, I would have gone to a solicitor.

With ongoing pain and not being willing to cycle again, I think you should engage a specialist solicitor to pursue your claim - possibly after advising the insurer that you will do so if they don't substantially improve their offer.


----------



## PK99 (21 Jan 2021)

Drago said:


> As a point of order, if they try and insist on making you run around getting quotes from hither and thither, *make sure you bill them for your time. *



For my SMIDSY I had CTC solicitor support.

Injuries: bumps bruises and strains then kept me off the bike for several months

As I was chief child care, cook & bottle washer, the *solicitor claimed an element for hours MrsPK spent on domestic duties while my bumps and bruises healed.*

Also... I claimed for my written off bike on my house insurance getting full payment immediately, Hiscox then claimed off the driver's insurance without any further involvement from me.

Private physio was part of Claim.

Total cash payout to me from Drivers insurance was a little north of 10k, IIRC, 10ish years ago


----------



## 12boy (22 Jan 2021)

I bought a Fuji track bike in December and had ordered a B17 narrow and set it up with a front brake since it was fixed. it took about a month to get it dialed in just so and to get used to being fixed and using SPDs. Cycling to work one Feb -7C morning I was struck by a car, resulting in a couple cracked ribs, some scrapes to the saddle and paint and some shattered glasses in my back pack. Because it was cold I was bundled up and was spared a bunch of road rash.
I called my insurance to ask what would be a reasonable payment they would expect to make it I'd hit a cyclist and they reluctantly said they would fix the bike and replace the saddle and my glasses and any medical. I managed to weasel out a figure of $8500 for pain and suffering from my agent, and wound up with a new powder coat, saddle, specs and $8500.00 from the driver's insurance.


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (22 Jan 2021)

I wouldn't be agreeing to go away for £325 I know that much. I'd expect the damage payout to put me back in exactly the same position as immediately before the accident, plus a reasonable amount of compo for the pain and inconvenience of getting injured and being unable to do ones normal routine until recovered.
The figure would have to be north of £1k otherwise I'd just go to court and make sure it cost the insurer some legal expenses. It doesn't take much court & lawyer time to make a go away quietly £1k out-of-court settlement look very cheap to an insurer. I reckon they are trying it on with £325 and they know it.


----------



## Marli (22 Jan 2021)

Thank you so much for your responses.

Yes, the offer from the insurance company was a first and final offer. I told them I would instruct a solicitor - that was several months ago - and I haven't heard from them since. 

I have chatted to a few no win no fee and their cut ranged between 25% and 40%, but it wasn't just that that put me off. 

I did enquire about not using no win, no fee, considering liability has already been admitted, but the costs were absolutely horrifying. 

I do not have insurance that would cover my legal costs.

To be perfectly honest I'm only looking to get my bike repaired and also to be compensated for the pain, distress and inconvenience - I'm thinking below 1000. I don't feel I have incurred extra costs - a period of pain/discomfort and (ongoing) inconvenience definitely.

Reading through your experiences I wonder if insurance companies have hardened their stance to cyclists in the last few years, or that they are taking advantage of my ignorance. 

My thought was that I'd present the case to the Small Claims (I can get a report from GP), but considering I'm looking at under 1k and that liability has already been accepted, it probably wouldn't be contested. Naïve?

Drago: What treatment (my GP told me to not rest on my elbow and flex it frequently), if any, did you receive for your ulna nerve compression? I haven't had (or been offered) an x-ray/MRI (and I feel the NHS has more pressing needs at the moment), but I don't know if it will show up anything anyway. 

Thank you once again for all the helpful advice, it's much appreciated.


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (22 Jan 2021)

Not an accident, but a financial transaction. I had an investment which was sold and I requested payment in Sterling. The financial service provider cocked up and paid me a $USD cheque, which I couldn't cash into my account. I kicked up a fuss and was then paid sterling, but currency fluctuations left me out of pocket by several hundred quid. I banked the main sum then said I would persue a complaint about the exchange rate losses. When the provider realised I wasn't messing around they recalculated the amount based on the more favourable exchange rate, paid me the difference and added a goodwill payment because I agreed to not make a formal complaint to the regulator.
The cost of sorting it out just with me was obviously a lot less than having to respond and defend an official complaint, but they tried it on at first to see if I was a pushover or not. 
If you bring an action in court, the defendant will almost certainly lose if they fail to show up to defend their case. That means there is a cost to them in paperwork preparation, lawyer time, travel etc. Unless the value of the claim is large and liability uncertain, it is unlikely to make sense for them to go to court, especially if they have already admitted liability but are just quibbling about the amount. Reading between the lines, another £500 more would probably make you walk away, and I can't see a day in court costing an insurer less than that much.


----------



## Dave Davenport (22 Jan 2021)

Not sure if it's changed, but the law firm I used didn't take any of my pay out, their fee's were paid by the driver's insurers, I think they got more than me!


----------



## boydj (22 Jan 2021)

As a starting point to a formal claim, you should put an itemised claim in writing to the insurance company covering all your costs including the personal element. Once that's rejected you can go down the solicitor route, or small claims court. That's assuming your injuries are not still bothering you - if they are then it's straight to a solicitor.


----------



## Drago (22 Jan 2021)

Marli said:


> Drago: What treatment (my GP told me to not rest on my elbow and flex it frequently), if any, did you receive for your ulna nerve compression? I haven't had (or been offered) an x-ray/MRI (and I feel the NHS has more pressing needs at the moment), but I don't know if it will show up anything anyway.


I had broken bones as well. 3 operations, a bunch of titanium, extensive phisio (both NHS and private), multiple steroid and anti inflammatory injections into the joint. Left with permanently numb outer fingers, and the half of my thumb from wrist to first joint is also numb (I injured my shoukder in the same assault). 

I had an MRI, which was horrendous. They had to put me in an awkward position because im too wide across the shoulders for a standard MRI machine and when they finally pulled me out I nearly fainted when I teied to move.

If it doesnt improve then trust me, you have some bad times ahead so dont settle until youre entirely sure what the medical outcome is.


----------



## Beebo (23 Jan 2021)

The insurers are playing a dangerous game here. They know you are unrepresented and are taking advantage of that fact. 
They should be treating you in the same way as if you had legal support. The ombudsman would look very favourably on your case.

you need a medical report to document your injury and estimates to support other losses.


----------



## chris-suffolk (23 Jan 2021)

Even going down the no-win-no-fee route may be worth it. They have admited liability, and if you were awarded £1000 on a 25% fee, that's still £750, which is £425 more than currently on offer. 
Also, as has been said, if the solicitor is any good they will insist on medical reports etc - all at the insurers cost as they have admitted liability - and they (should) significantly up the payout and also give peace of mind that there's no long term damage. Remember, once you settle, there's no going back for more in a couple of years when you find that somethings' not right and isn't going to get better, or will cost alot to put right.


----------



## mattobrien (23 Jan 2021)

This all sounds like a good advert for BC membership where legal cover is included.


----------



## vickster (23 Jan 2021)

mattobrien said:


> This all sounds like a good advert for BC membership where legal cover is included.


Or Cycling U.K. or LCC


----------



## classic33 (23 Jan 2021)

Marli said:


> Thank you so much for your responses.
> 
> Yes, the offer from the insurance company was a first and final offer. I told them I would instruct a solicitor - that was several months ago - and I haven't heard from them since.
> 
> ...


Contact either of the companies who've been linked too, earlier in the thread.
Explain what has happened, and go from there


----------



## postman (23 Jan 2021)

This shows why insurance is a must.I know I have just had a grumble against the rise in the Cycling UK cover,and will be going with British Cycling when my season starts It's worth every penny.


----------



## Marli (24 Jan 2021)

Dave Davenport said:


> Not sure if it's changed, but the law firm I used didn't take any of my pay out, their fee's were paid by the driver's insurers, I think they got more than me!



A solicitor I spoke to said the law changed a few years back. I don't think the legal profession likes the changes; it's less profitable for them.


----------



## Marli (24 Jan 2021)

chris-suffolk said:


> Even going down the no-win-no-fee route may be worth it. They have admited liability, and if you were awarded £1000 on a 25% fee, that's still £750, which is £425 more than currently on offer.
> Also, as has been said, if the solicitor is any good they will insist on medical reports etc - all at the insurers cost as they have admitted liability - and they (should) significantly up the payout and also give peace of mind that there's no long term damage. Remember, once you settle, there's no going back for more in a couple of years when you find that somethings' not right and isn't going to get better, or will cost alot to put right.



After reading the T&Cs and accompanying forms from the solicitor, it felt like I would be selling my soul if I signed them. I didn't get a feeling that I was their principal concern, but that they would manipulate the situation so that they did as little work as possible to obtain as much money for themselves as they could.


----------



## vickster (24 Jan 2021)

Try one of the cycling injury specialists. But yes, it will also require a fair amount of input from you in terms of record keeping etc


----------



## Marli (24 Jan 2021)

Thank you everyone.

I think insurance cover is a good idea. Never had a bike accident before and, of course, never thought it would happen to me! 

The insurance company have been so rude and slack that I don't think I can be bothered to go back to them again (I had to contact them several times to start the claim, even though the third-party had informed them of the accident). 

I think I will go small claims. I'm of the view that the insurance company will not contest the amount because it's quite low, liability is already established and, as you say, just to engage a lawyer for the proceedings would cost more than that. There's always an unknown; justice and the law are mutually exclusive in my view. It's whether I wait to see if my elbow injury has a legacy beforehand.


----------



## vickster (24 Jan 2021)

If you engage a solicitor, you will never have to deal directly with the driver’s insurers directly again. You won’t have to pay the solicitor, they may just take a proportion of any eventual payout


----------



## Marli (24 Jan 2021)

vickster said:


> If you engage a solicitor, you will never have to deal directly with the driver’s insurers directly again. You won’t have to pay the solicitor, they may just take a proportion of any eventual payout



But I lose control of situation. I don't feel that lawyer's necessarily act in the interests of their clients; more their bank balance. I just felt that this is a simple case. Of course, I may be stung by my own naivety.


----------



## vickster (24 Jan 2021)

Marli said:


> But I lose control of situation. I don't feel that lawyer's necessarily act in the interests of their clients; more their bank balance. I just felt that this is a simple case. Of course, I may be stung by my own naivety.


Up to you.
I used British Cycling’s solicitor’s for a claim a few years ago, it took a long time to resolve due to slow recovery and ongoing issues. No complaints, at no point did I feel the solicitors were acting in their interests not mine. They have very strict codes of contact to adhere to.


----------



## roubaixtuesday (24 Jan 2021)

Marli said:


> Of course, I may be stung by my own naivety.



I fear you will. 

I've made two claims, the one handled by a solicitor definitely left me thinking both they, and the medical professional submitting evidence were maximising what they got for minimal effort. 

But it almost definitely will result in a much bigger award reflective of the actual damages legally due to you. In my case, they trebled the initial offer; insurance companies deliberately make ridiculous first offers in order to scam the unwary. 

Good luck either way.


----------



## classic33 (24 Jan 2021)

Marli said:


> But I lose control of situation. I don't feel that lawyer's necessarily act in the interests of their clients; more their bank balance. I just felt that this is a simple case. Of course, I may be stung by my own naivety.


At present the ones with control of the situation is the drivers insurance company, not you. They've made an offer and you've declined.

I lost any control I thought I had within a week. False address given by the driver, and no record held by the police of the incident.

You've the latter, hand it over to a solicitor who actually has experience of dealing with these types of claim. For the sake of a phonecall or filling a form in online, what have you to loose?

They'll let you know if they feel there's a chance of winning. If you feel that you'll be selling your soul to the devil, don't sign in red ink.

Download either of MIB forms to get an idea of what's required from yourself. Then look at the statement template by @Vikeonabike for how to fit that in.

The change you mentioned is reflected in the piece @vickster gave the link to.

Don't be put off.


----------



## boydj (24 Jan 2021)

There are solicitors who are specialists in dealing with cycling incidents. There are ads in cycling magazines and info in both Cycling UK and British Cycling web sites. If you have ongoing issues with injuries sustained in the incident then it's time to get the professionals involved. You have to take control of the process or you'll get nowhere with the insurance company.


----------



## icowden (25 Jan 2021)

vickster said:


> If you engage a solicitor, you will never have to deal directly with the driver’s insurers directly again. You won’t have to pay the solicitor, they may just take a proportion of any eventual payout


But in this case the OP doesn't need to go "No Win, No Fee" (which is where that slice usually gets taken). The OP has already "won" due to the admission of liability. Thus the insurance company will pay all legal fees unless they can demonstrate that the legal fees are unreasonable. If they had offered you £10,000 before you instructed a solicitor and you turned that down then only got £5000 they could justifiably argue that the fees are unreasonable. 

In this case a good personal injury solicitor will most likely take the case without taking any of your damages as they will have 100% certainty of getting their costs from the insurer. Bear in mind that although you might have to pay for some disbursements up front (e.g. GP report), these will all be claimed back from the Insurer.

Finally, be patient. These cases can take a while to resolve. 1-3 years is not unusual.

Disclaimer - I worked as a Legal Secretary for a Personal Injury firm about 20 years ago. I am not sure how things have changed since then :-)


----------



## vickster (25 Jan 2021)

icowden said:


> But in this case the OP doesn't need to go "No Win, No Fee" (which is where that slice usually gets taken). The OP has already "won" due to the admission of liability. Thus the insurance company will pay all legal fees unless they can demonstrate that the legal fees are unreasonable. If they had offered you £10,000 before you instructed a solicitor and you turned that down then only got £5000 they could justifiably argue that the fees are unreasonable.
> 
> In this case a good personal injury solicitor will most likely take the case without taking any of your damages as they will have 100% certainty of getting their costs from the insurer. Bear in mind that although you might have to pay for some disbursements up front (e.g. GP report), these will all be claimed back from the Insurer.
> 
> ...


There was some change in the last few years which I think was mentioned upthread, no idea on the details. Something to do with how small settlements are handled.
https://www.lawsociety.org.uk/topics/civil-litigation/personal-injury-whats-changing
The OP simply needs to talk to a specialist cycling injury solicitor. They may advise small claims court as it might not be worth their while taking the case, but only they can confirm how to proceed

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/personal-injuries/


----------



## icowden (25 Jan 2021)

That's a nasty change to allow the insurance companies to get away with not paying much. I agree with you though, a specialist solicitor will be able to advise the best way to proceed.


----------



## classic33 (25 Jan 2021)

Changes to payments came in payment in 2013, but that shouldn't stop anyone pursuing a case against another.


----------



## Marli (18 Feb 2021)

Well, I've had some interesting responses from the insurer of the driver who knocked me off my bike. Does anyone know whether the small claims limit for personal injury (excluding damage to bike/clothing etc) following a bicycle accident will rise in April this year? I'm confused by what I'm reading - it says it will rise to £5k, but will cyclists still be limited to 1K. Does this mean that anything above 1K personal injury has to be submitted via the MOJ portal?

Also, I'm confused by the medico legal report. Apparently, you own GP cannot complete the report. The whole thing sounds like a right scam to me and just a way of bumping up the price. 

Many thanks.


----------



## vickster (18 Feb 2021)

Marli said:


> Well, I've had some interesting responses from the insurer of the driver who knocked me off my bike. Does anyone know whether the small claims limit for personal injury (excluding damage to bike/clothing etc) following a bicycle accident will rise in April this year? I'm confused by what I'm reading - it says it will rise to £5k, but will cyclists still be limited to 1K. Does this mean that anything above 1K personal injury has to be submitted via the MOJ portal?
> 
> Also, I'm confused by the medico legal report. Apparently, you own GP cannot complete the report. The whole thing sounds like a right scam to me and just a way of bumping up the price.
> 
> Many thanks.


Yes you need an independent medical report. 
All of this is why it is so much better to go through a solicitor


----------



## Marli (18 Feb 2021)

Yeah, but I don't know why my GP is not considered professional enough (I'm a rare visitor) to provide an unbiased report. All that will happen is that the 'independent' will request details from the GP to write a report that he'll charge for. Unnecessary bureaucracy.


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (18 Feb 2021)

Marli said:


> Yeah, but I don't know why my GP is not considered professional enough (I'm a rare visitor) to provide an unbiased report. All that will happen is that the 'independent' will request details from the GP to write a report that he'll charge for. Unnecessary bureaucracy.



Possibly they will, but don't worry about it. The other side have accepted liability, so the medical report fee is their problem not yours.


----------



## Oldhippy (18 Feb 2021)

I believe, maybe wrongly, that as I am a member of Cycling UK they fight my corner if in the unlikely event that I get twatted. I'm pretty sure it is a thing though.


----------



## vickster (18 Feb 2021)

Marli said:


> Yeah, but I don't know why my GP is not considered professional enough (I'm a rare visitor) to provide an unbiased report. All that will happen is that the 'independent' will request details from the GP to write a report that he'll charge for. Unnecessary bureaucracy.


That's how it is...there is a specific database of clinicians who undertake medico-legal reporting which the other side will require. They may even request you to see their own chose medico-legal clinician as well. You will likely need to go see them for a thorough examination. If you are claiming psychological impact too, you may also need to see a psychologist for a detailed assessment.
Both parties will also demand your medical records be released by the GP back to the year dot (and yes, the GP will charge for that but you won't pay...unless you lose).

If they've accepted liability, why are you going through the small claims court? Isn't it just a matter now of negotiating an acceptable settlement. The amounts are determined by case law not a finger in the air based on your circumstance/injuries

Again, this is why it's far better to engage a solicitor specialist in cycling RTC injuries as advised. The law is based on bureaucracy...and PI claims are very thorough as unfortunately there are lots of fraudulent shysters out there claiming for injuries that don't exist etc (hence the thorough medical assessment process to discourage the shysters or catch them out)! (and also less than honest medics willing to state things that aren't entirely true let's say)
It's a pain for genuine claimants but it is as it is


----------



## vickster (18 Feb 2021)

Oldhippy said:


> I believe, maybe wrongly, that as I am a member of Cycling UK they fight my corner if in the unlikely event that I get twatted. I'm pretty sure it is a thing though.


Yes they do (as do British Cycling/LCC)...the OP isn't a member of said organisations though


----------



## Drago (18 Feb 2021)

vickster said:


> That's how it is...there is a specific database of clinicians who undertake medico-legal reporting which the other side will require. They may even request you to see their own chose medico-legal clinician as well. You will likely need to go see them for a thorough examination. If you are claiming psychological impact too, you may also need to see a psychologist for a detailed assessment.
> Both parties will also demand your medical records be released by the GP back to the year dot (and yes, the GP will charge for that but you won't pay...unless you lose).
> 
> If they've accepted liability, why are you going through the small claims court? Isn't it just a matter now of negotiating an acceptable settlement. The amounts are determined by case law not a finger in the air based on your circumstance/injuries
> ...


If you do get summoned to see their quack make damn sure you stiff them for any travel expenses and your time. Make sure that you also bring a 'friend', which you are lawfully entitled to do and which the BMA positively encourages, and that you record the consultation. Doctors hate you doing it, but you are lawfully entitled to do so andp if the doctor gets sniffy a complaint to the BMA will see them officially censured.

I presume you're keeping a log of all the time you're spending on this matter? Do this dilligently and theirmefforts to save a few hundred wuid could end up costing them thousands.


----------



## classic33 (18 Feb 2021)

Marli said:


> Yeah, but I don't know why my GP is not considered professional enough (I'm a rare visitor) to provide an unbiased report. All that will happen is that the 'independent' will request details from the GP to write a report that he'll charge for. Unnecessary bureaucracy.


I'd be asking who's going to pay the independent medical assessment*. Don't be afraid to ask the question of them.

I had an independent assessment carried out, that the other side didn't agree with, insisting on getting access to my medical records for themselves to check that their independent assessment was accurate.

I'm with @vickster on this, get a solicitor to act for you. They may think twice before making demands of you.

I did a lot of the initial work myself, just like you are doing, and quickly found myself being treated as an idiot, to try and intimidate I felt and I made sure I let them know that.

Have a gander at the MIB links in the posts in commuting and general cycling. They give a fair indication of what is required from you.


*You'll add this to your incurred costs, but the price may be eye watering. Especially if they say you've to pay. Another way of putting you off. My opinion only, having been there and done that.


----------



## classic33 (19 Feb 2021)

Are there any bicycle shops that specialize in folding bikes near you?

Your other option is to contact the manufacturer and see what they advise. Give them full details of what damage you can see, and how it happened. It may cover you if the manufacturer says it's not fixable, but the other side insist on a repair.


----------



## Cycling_Samurai (19 Feb 2021)

I'm gonna say good luck mate. Everyone said everything to help you. 

Your story reminds me of how extremely lucky so far. Had some close calls but nothing happened.


----------



## Marli (19 Feb 2021)

Thank you everyone. 

Initially the insurance company stated under UK law that they did not have to replace my (damaged beyond repair) bike, but the next minute, when they realised I was representing myself, they changed their mind and the cheque is in the post! As Classic33 says, their language has been intimidatory throughout, but I know, as hard as it is, that I should not take this personally. However, I do think this behaviour reprehensible.

I have nothing to hide from a medical report by a medico legal, but I cannot find anywhere that this is required by the Small Claims Court and I have yet to find a database listing these 'independent experts' (my GP surgery hasn't a clue either). However, as they are insisting on it, I will ask them, as has been suggested, if they are going to pay for it. 

Does anyone know how the law changes in April? Is it that all claims up to £5K for personal injury have to go via this MOJ portal and cannot go to small claims or is it that vulnerable users (cyclists, pedestrians etc) can still go to small claims if the case is 1K or below? I'm quite confused by what I've read. Has anyone used the MOJ portal service? 

Vickster pointed out that the amount for personal injury is determined by law and there is a guide (the JCB I think) that gives values. I think if the law changes to force cyclists representing themselves onto the portal for anything below 5K, it will dissuade many genuine cases from pursuing claims. I can see how the insurance industry will benefit - I bet their lobbyists were out in force to get this change.


----------



## vickster (19 Feb 2021)

I had 3 medical assessments during my claim (over about 3 years), they were all organised by an agency engaged by the solicitor. Can’t remember what they were called, but similar to this. Or get the insurers to organise as they want it and then they will pay the fees
https://www.theindependentgeneralpractice.co.uk/medico-legal.html

do you have legal cover on your home insurance, or any sort of assistance programme through your employer or union? Maybe they can offer support.
it’s not yet April, can’t you get the ball moving through the SCC?


----------



## Marli (19 Feb 2021)

vickster said:


> I had 3 medical assessments during my claim (over about 3 years), they were all organised by an agency engaged by the solicitor.
> do you have legal cover on your home insurance, or any sort of assistance programme through your employer or union? Maybe they can offer support.
> it’s not yet April, can’t you get the ball moving through the SCC?



No legal cover, but I will have in the future!


----------



## classic33 (19 Feb 2021)

https://www.jspubs.com/expert-witness/si/i/insurance-industry/
&
https://witnessdirectory.com/categories.php?toe=1&country=UK

Why are you going through the courts to claim from the insurance company.


----------



## vickster (19 Feb 2021)

Marli said:


> No legal cover, but I will have in the future!


Certain,
ly worthwhile, no need to wait for the future. It used to be that Cycling UK would provide cover retrospective,y, might be worth checking. Membership under £50 a year


----------



## vickster (19 Feb 2021)

classic33 said:


> https://www.jspubs.com/expert-witness/si/i/insurance-industry/
> &
> https://witnessdirectory.com/categories.php?toe=1&country=UK
> 
> Why are you going through the courts to claim from the insurance company.


Indeed if they’ve accepted liability. You just need to go through the process and then negotiate


----------



## Marli (19 Feb 2021)

classic33 said:


> https://www.jspubs.com/expert-witness/si/i/insurance-industry/
> &
> https://witnessdirectory.com/categories.php?toe=1&country=UK
> 
> Why are you going through the courts to claim from the insurance company.



Because originally, although the third-party insurer admitted liability, they refused to replace my bike and only offered me 325 compensation in total, even though they were aware of my injuries and the damage to my bike (I sent photos). Some months later I sent a letter listing what I was claiming for and my intention of going to court.


----------



## Marli (19 Feb 2021)

vickster said:


> Indeed if they’ve accepted liability. You just need to go through the process and then negotiate



They don't seem to want to negotiate and keep asking me for my solicitor's name.


----------



## vickster (19 Feb 2021)

Marli said:


> They don't seem to want to negotiate and keep asking me for my solicitor's name.


Seems like a good time to engage one, there’s no harm in giving one a call. You won’t have to pay eg
https://www.bottonline.co.uk/road-t...compensation-claim-for-bicycle-accident#TABLE


----------



## classic33 (19 Feb 2021)

Marli said:


> They don't seem to want to negotiate and keep asking me for my solicitor's name.


State clearly, that at present, all correspondence goes to you as you are acting for yourself. 

Certain to get a giggle if you say it over the phone.


----------



## Phaeton (19 Feb 2021)

Marli said:


> They don't seem to want to negotiate and keep asking me for my solicitor's name.


In which case, pay the £50 to Cycling UK as @vickster says & let them deal with it, it's their job, they know the rules which you don't


----------



## vickster (19 Feb 2021)

Phaeton said:


> In which case, pay the £50 to Cycling UK as @vickster says & let them deal with it, it's their job, they know the rules which you don't


Probably worth calling them to check they will cover retrospectively
01483-238301
https://www.cyclinguk.org/contact


----------



## classic33 (19 Feb 2021)

Has the bike been taken to a bike shop, to see what they think it would cost or safe to ride. One legal requirement on your side to be done, obtain quotes.

Get in touch with the manufacturer, see what the recommend be done.

Don't be put off by the way your being treated.


----------



## vickster (19 Feb 2021)

classic33 said:


> Has the bike been taken to a bike shop, to see what they think it would cost or safe to ride. One legal requirement on your side to be done, obtain quotes.
> 
> Get in touch with the manufacturer, see what the recommend be done.
> 
> Don't be put off by the way your being treated.


Post #55 he’s agreed a sum for the repairs, cheque in post. If it costs more, tough...once an amount is agreed that’s it. Same with injuries, hence the never settle before fully recovered or recovered as far as you’re going to be as per the medics


----------



## Marli (19 Feb 2021)

vickster said:


> Probably worth calling them to check they will cover retrospectively
> 01483-238301
> https://www.cyclinguk.org/contact



I will do, thank you.


----------



## Marli (19 Feb 2021)

classic33 said:


> Has the bike been taken to a bike shop, to see what they think it would cost or safe to ride. One legal requirement on your side to be done, obtain quotes.
> 
> Get in touch with the manufacturer, see what the recommend be done.
> 
> Don't be put off by the way your being treated.



Yes, defo write off, but at least I get the money to replace it. One issue sorted.


----------



## Marli (19 Feb 2021)

classic33 said:


> State clearly, that at present, all correspondence goes to you as you are acting for yourself.
> 
> Certain to get a giggle if you say it over the phone.



Their letters are so snotty. I originally served the papers on the driver (seemed sensible) and they insisted that I send them to them and quoted me some law that says my case could be struck out if I don't do so. This is how they try to intimidate.


----------



## vickster (19 Feb 2021)

Marli said:


> Their letters are so snotty. I originally served the papers on the driver (seemed sensible) and they insisted that I send them to them and quoted me some law that says my case could be struck out if I don't do so. This is how they try to intimidate.


Or just expect all parties to adhere to the law. Official letters can appear snotty to the lay person (I get copies of lots from specialists to GP)


----------



## Marli (19 Feb 2021)

As I said, I'm trying not to take this personally, I understand they are doing a job. I also know they are not on my side. I think though, knowing that they are communicating with a lay person, they could tone down the language.


----------



## classic33 (19 Feb 2021)

Striking a claim off will add to the cost, for them. So it doesn't make sense. 

It could be as simple as them not believing your claim or disputing the amount of your claim.


----------



## vickster (19 Feb 2021)

Marli said:


> As I said, I'm trying not to take this personally, I understand they are doing a job. I also know they are not on my side. I think though, knowing that they are communicating with a lay person, they could tone down the language.


It’s just a standard letter


----------



## Drago (19 Feb 2021)

For the love of Boris, get a solicitor and beat them with their own stick or they'll weasel and squirm for as long as they can.

Even if you 'win' on your own you'll never get recompense for the untold hours you're wasting on this.


----------



## vickster (19 Feb 2021)

classic33 said:


> Striking a claim off will add to the cost, for them. So it doesn't make sense.
> 
> It could be as simple as them not believing your claim or disputing the amount of your claim.


Indeed, insurers are v hot on wheedling out potentially fraudulent claims


----------



## classic33 (19 Feb 2021)

Marli said:


> As I said, I'm trying not to take this personally, I understand they are doing a job. I also know they are not on my side. I think though, knowing that they are communicating with a lay person, they could tone down the language.


The letters will probably be generic templates, which allow for certain parts to be adjusted.


----------



## Marli (19 Feb 2021)

My personal injury claim (bumps, bruises, swelling and longer term damage to my elbow) is for 1100. If I went by the JCB calculator it can be up to 12K. I filed a police report on the day of the accident, I sent them photos of my injuries and I explained on the phone what had happened. I'm not trying to scam them.


----------



## Phaeton (19 Feb 2021)

Marli said:


> My personal injury claim (bumps, bruises, swelling and longer term damage to my elbow) is for 1100. If I went by the JCB calculator it can be up to 12K. I filed a police report on the day of the accident, I sent them photos of my injury and I explained on the phone what had happened. I'm not trying to scam them.


Sorry to sound like a broken record, step away from the keyboard, pick up the phone & engage a solicitor, sit back & let them worry about it, it's not going to cost you anything as they have already agreed liability they will have to pick up the solicitors fees, that is my understanding but on the phone call please ask the question.


----------



## roubaixtuesday (19 Feb 2021)

Drago said:


> For the love of Boris, get a solicitor and beat them with their own stick or they'll weasel and squirm for as long as they can.
> 
> Even if you 'win' on your own you'll never get recompense for the untold hours you're wasting on this.



I agree with Drago.

There, I've said it. 

I need to go and have a shower.


----------



## classic33 (19 Feb 2021)

Marli said:


> My personal injury claim (bumps, bruises, swelling and longer term damage to my elbow) is for 1100. If I went by the JCB calculator it can be up to 12K. I filed a police report on the day of the accident, I sent them photos of my injuries and I explained on the phone what had happened. I'm not trying to scam them.


For now forget about the JCB calculator. You are not medically qualified,* it may also explain their request for you to be seen by an independent expert witness.



*It's not a case of physician heal thyself.


----------



## fossyant (19 Feb 2021)

The JCB calculator is way off. It was about 10x out on my spinal injury !

My son is having a nightmare over a simple rear ender - car was fixed, but they are refusing to pay out around £1000-£1500 which is the standard for whiplash, so it's going to court (with added costs). The crash was on camera, and the big car that hit him in his small car was lifted off the ground with the impact.

Deffo solicitor.


----------



## Arjimlad (19 Feb 2021)

I work for this firm which is Bristol based, and my colleague has plenty of experience of cycling claims, and would be quite happy to have an initial chat with you without obligation. 

https://wards.uk.com/meet-the-team/helen-boyd/


----------



## Oldhippy (19 Feb 2021)

Now that is what we should be about! Helping where we can. Go team Arjimlad.


----------



## Arjimlad (19 Feb 2021)

Oldhippy said:


> Now that is what we should be about! Helping where we can. Go team Arjimlad.


Don't want to appear "ambulance chasing" but there seems to be a genuine need & I trust Helen to do a great job & be honest about the prospects/value.


----------



## Oldhippy (19 Feb 2021)

If you know someone who does for a living and can pass on the knowledge all for the better. Good deed for you, potential job for your friend and useful knowledge for the person who needs accurate information. Everyone wins!


----------



## Marli (19 Feb 2021)

fossyant said:


> The JCB calculator is way off. It was about 10x out on my spinal injury !
> 
> My son is having a nightmare over a simple rear ender - car was fixed, but they are refusing to pay out around £1000-£1500 which is the standard for whiplash, so it's going to court (with added costs). The crash was on camera, and the big car that hit him in his small car was lifted off the ground with the impact.
> 
> Deffo solicitor.



Out in what way - too high or too low?


----------



## fossyant (19 Feb 2021)

Marli said:


> Out in what way - too high or too low?



Way too high !


----------



## Marli (19 Feb 2021)

fossyant said:


> Way too high !



That doesn't surprise me. My claim is right at the bottom of the figure. If you read some of the 'no fee' websites, they wave a giant carrot to suck you in.


----------



## Marli (19 Feb 2021)

Arjimlad said:


> I work for this firm which is Bristol based, and my colleague has plenty of experience of cycling claims, and would be quite happy to have an initial chat with you without obligation.
> 
> https://wards.uk.com/meet-the-team/helen-boyd/



Thank you. I consider that if I do take the issue to court on my own back, my gain must be worth more than the zero they have offered to date for my injuries. Apparently, because they have failed to negotiate I should be able to claim back the court fees and the medico report that they are insisting upon.


----------



## Marli (19 Feb 2021)

Oldhippy said:


> If you know someone who does for a living and can pass on the knowledge all for the better. Good deed for you, potential job for your friend and useful knowledge for the person who needs accurate information. Everyone wins!



Yes, I'm sorry I didn't study for the law now.


----------



## Oldhippy (19 Feb 2021)

You have nothing to lose. Look at it as payback for every close pass, every dumb hand gesture you ever got through a window, every puddle you got soaked by from a passing box on wheels and treat yourself.


----------



## icowden (19 Feb 2021)

Marli said:


> That doesn't surprise me. My claim is right at the bottom of the figure. If you read some of the 'no fee' websites, they wave a giant carrot to suck you in.


But as we have said - you don't need to go no win no fee as you already have liability settled.


----------



## Marli (20 Feb 2021)

icowden said:


> But as we have said - you don't need to go no win no fee as you already have liability settled.



That's why I'll think I should just take the case to court myself so that the judge can decide what is fair and reasonable compensation.


----------



## vickster (20 Feb 2021)

Marli said:


> That's why I'll think I should just take the case to court myself so that the judge can decide what is fair and reasonable compensation.


The judge will just look at case law and precedent


----------



## classic33 (20 Feb 2021)

Marli said:


> That's why I'll think I should just take the case to court myself so that the judge can decide what is fair and reasonable compensation.


Going on what you've said already,
No receipt for the bike
Similar for the some of the items bought
No proof that it will cost 325GDP? or less to repair.
Were you seen by a doctor after the incident?

I'd say there's a chance that should you take it to court, that costs may not be awarded because procedure hasn't been followed. Each side pays their own. Go through the system in place and you'll not be facing this possibility.

Whilst the evidence required for a small claims court may be less than for higher court, you will be required to produce that evidence. This will include all communication sent, either they sent you or you sent to them. If you used the phone, you'll need times, dates and names. e-mail, copies of those.

You'll be representing yourself against someone trained in the system and familiar with it. Read back through both threads, and see how much of a disadvantage you're at already.

You were given a link by Arjimlad, my advice is to use it.


----------



## mattobrien (20 Feb 2021)

@Marli when you say the insurance company accepted fault, have they formally admitted liability or do they make an offer to settle on a without prejudice basis?


----------



## Marli (22 Feb 2021)

classic33 said:


> Going on what you've said already,
> No receipt for the bike
> Similar for the some of the items bought
> No proof that it will cost 325GDP? or less to repair.
> ...



They changed their mind - they paid the price for a new bike, once they learned I was representing myself (although why that should make any difference I don't know).

The claim now is for personal injury. The liability is accepted. It's really just trying to establish what is fair and reasonable. What I do need is a medico legal report, but I'm presuming that this can be claimed back from the insurer as they are the ones wanting it.


----------



## Marli (22 Feb 2021)

mattobrien said:


> @Marli when you say the insurance company accepted fault, have they formally admitted liability or do they make an offer to settle on a without prejudice basis?



Yes, they have formally accepted fault. Difficult not to, as the driver had done it on their behalf in front of a witness.


----------



## classic33 (22 Feb 2021)

Marli said:


> They changed their mind - they paid the price for a new bike, once they learned I was representing myself (although why that should make any difference I don't know).
> 
> The claim now is for personal injury. The liability is accepted. It's really just trying to establish what is fair and reasonable. What I do need is a medico legal report, but I'm presuming that this can be claimed back from the insurer as they are the ones wanting it.


Check with them, before doing anything.

Also check what they want you to do with the damaged bike.


----------



## Bazzer (22 Feb 2021)

Marli said:


> That's why I'll think I should just take the case to court myself so that the judge can decide what is fair and reasonable compensation.


Are you aware of the judgments, that is the level of compensation for personal injury, which have previously made in cases previously heard by the Courts?
Some years ago I was T boned by a negligent driver and compared to some on here, got off lightly. When it came to the personal injury aspect of the claim, (NB this was after examination by an independent assessor) and the other side's insurer made an offer, my solicitor, who was engaged through my house insurance, provided me with details of amounts awarded by the Courts. That allowed me to consider the offer made and whether it was reasonable. - Which it wasn't. They had lowballed me by around £8k.
So unless you are well versed in the cases which have been heard by the Courts, I would echo what has been said numerous times on here and speak with a solicitor.


----------



## Marli (22 Feb 2021)

Bazzer said:


> Are you aware of the judgments, that is the level of compensation for personal injury, which have previously made in cases previously heard by the Courts?
> Some years ago I was T boned by a negligent driver and compared to some on here, got off lightly. When it came to the personal injury aspect of the claim, (NB this was after examination by an independent assessor) and the other side's insurer made an offer, my solicitor, who was engaged through my house insurance, provided me with details of amounts awarded by the Courts. That allowed me to consider the offer made and whether it was reasonable. - Which it wasn't. They had lowballed me by around £8k.
> So unless you are well versed in the cases which have been heard by the Courts, I would echo what has been said numerous times on here and speak with a solicitor.



I'll see. I think for low value cases, where liability has already been established, a solicitor can work against you. Their goal is to spend as little time as possible on the case. Reading the T&Cs of a couple of the solicitors, they can force you to accept an amount that you perhaps do not find acceptable. Their time is valuable. Going to court is not what they want; they are limited to what costs they can recover, which is why they take 25-40% of your damages. I can see their value in cases where the amount is large/liability has not been accepted/it is complicated.

In my original post I was trying to see what compensation other people had received for what kind of injuries. I guess, at the end of the day, it's what you feel is acceptable. I find it hard to believe that the court would order to award me nothing at all (my GP records and photos are my proof), which is where I am at the moment. I'm guessing a medico legal report is required regardless of whether you are represented by a solicitor or yourself. I also wanted to see if anybody had used the MOJ portal to make a claim and how they'd found that process.

I have three years to start formal proceedings, so no rush, but I think the more knowledge I have, the better and other peoples' experiences are always helpful.


----------



## Milkfloat (22 Feb 2021)

@Marli You have repeatedly been told to take legal advice. You have the contact details of someone who will give you initial legal advice for free or you can find your own. I strongly suggest you listen to all this advice, rather then embarrass yourself in court.


----------



## Bazzer (22 Feb 2021)

Marli said:


> I'll see. I think for low value cases, where liability has already been established, a solicitor can work against you. Their goal is to spend as little time as possible on the case. Reading the T&Cs of a couple of the solicitors, they can force you to accept an amount that you perhaps do not find acceptable. Their time is valuable. Going to court is not what they want; they are limited to what costs they can recover, which is why they take 25-40% of your damages. I can see their value in cases where the amount is large/liability has not been accepted/it is complicated.
> 
> In my original post I was trying to see what compensation other people had received for what kind of injuries. I guess, at the end of the day, it's what you feel is acceptable. I find it hard to believe that the court would order to award me nothing at all (my GP records and photos are my proof), which is where I am at the moment. I'm guessing a medico legal report is required regardless of whether you are represented by a solicitor or yourself. I also wanted to see if anybody had used the MOJ portal to make a claim and how they'd found that process.
> 
> I have three years to start formal proceedings, so no rush, but I think the more knowledge I have, the better and other peoples' experiences are always helpful.


A few points to your response:
The compensation those on here have received will vary enormously, because the injuries, outcomes and long/longer term impacts we have had, will vary from person to person. For the example, psychological or if a person has a physically demanding job. That is the point of an independent medical examination. It provides a reference point for those involved in the claim. "Ulna nerve damage" delivered by a non medical professional can mean a variety of things to non medical professionals.
Secondly, what you feel is acceptable is not necessarily agreed by the other side. Equally, the other side will be looking to see what they can get away with.
Thirdly, I wouldn't rely upon the three year time limit for commencing proceedings; at least for getting your own house in order, i.e. an independent medical. 
Fourthly, don't be under any illusion that if you f*** up at any stage, chances are the other side will be all over it like a rash, or use it against you at a later stage. 
Hence the numerous suggestions for getting professional advice.


----------



## Drago (22 Feb 2021)

Marli said:


> Their goal is to spend as little time as possible on the case.


Wrong. Their goal is to pay you as little as possible, and I think you might be stunned at the time they will invest in achieving that end. 

Their staff draw a salary regardless of whether or not they're giving your personal case any attention.


----------



## Marli (23 Feb 2021)

Drago said:


> Wrong. Their goal is to pay you as little as possible, and I think you might be stunned at the time they will invest in achieving that end.
> 
> Their staff draw a salary regardless of whether or not they're giving your personal case any attention.



Not sure I agree with this. However, I have heard everybody's advice. Thank you.


----------



## fossyant (23 Feb 2021)

Marli said:


> Not sure I agree with this. However, I have heard everybody's advice. Thank you.



It's correct. They are there to pay you as little as possible. I had the claim handler moved about that many times it was ridiculous, and we had to start again each time (i.e. getting their side to understand). And that was for a lot more than a few bruises - life changing condition.


----------



## Drago (23 Feb 2021)

Marli said:


> Not sure I agree with this. However, I have heard everybody's advice. Thank you.


The alternative is that its their goal to give you as much money as possible. That seems highly implausible.

1. The insurers pay their own solicitors on a retainer, not on a case by case basis. They pay them the same whether they jerk you about or not, whether they're working hard tomresolve cases or playing office golf. 

2. The insurers are a business, intended to maximise profit opportunity for shareholders.

Using their arrangement under 1. they will do their best to maximise 2. That is the only reason they have 1. in the first place.

They're not your friend. They're not trying to help you. Every action the business takes will be with the intention of minimising their loss, and thus maximising shareholder value. They will yank your chain and send you off with minimum amount they can get away with - come back in 6 months and tell us I was wrong.


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (23 Feb 2021)

WHich is why you need a solicitor whose fee they will end up paying - gives them an incentive to keep the process short


----------



## classic33 (26 Feb 2021)

Marli said:


> I'll see. I think for low value cases, where liability has already been established, a solicitor can work against you. Their goal is to spend as little time as possible on the case. Reading the T&Cs of a couple of the solicitors, they can force you to accept an amount that you perhaps do not find acceptable. Their time is valuable. Going to court is not what they want; they are limited to what costs they can recover, which is why they take 25-40% of your damages. I can see their value in cases where the amount is large/liability has not been accepted/it is complicated.
> 
> In my original post I was trying to see what compensation other people had received for what kind of injuries. I guess, at the end of the day, it's what you feel is acceptable. I find it hard to believe that the court would order to award me nothing at all (my GP records and photos are my proof), which is where I am at the moment. I'm guessing a medico legal report is required regardless of whether you are represented by a solicitor or yourself. I also wanted to see if anybody had used the MOJ portal to make a claim and how they'd found that process.
> 
> I have three years to start formal proceedings, so no rush, but I think the more knowledge I have, the better and other peoples' experiences are always helpful.


I tried to represent myself, and even with the first solicitors I tried I felt I was doing the legwork.

The police clammed up, refusing to acknowledge the fact I was fighting my own corner Getting access to some medical records was impossible. Your records will not be sufficient on their own. You'll be questioned as to your qualifications, you are viewing from a personal perspective. Which may be seen as biased. I spent six months chasing phantoms, paperwork that "didn't exist"/would never be released to me. I had a first for my GP at the time, a letter which stated I was fit enough to return to work. The site manager thought he'd managed to get rid of me, this letter would never be got, he was wrong.

The paperwork, from where I tried what you want to do is filed away. The system may have changed in that time, but the upfront costs, you will have to pay, will be available. These may not be recoverable by you, and you'll have to consider that before you pay one penny over. Each side paying their own costs. Can you afford that?

My mistake was in going to a No win, No fee solicitor's. Recommended by the law society as handling this type of claim in my area. It didn't end well, for either party and I went with one that had experience of dealing with cycling related claims. 

The piece you were pointed to was put together to try and help people who might find themselves in a similar situation. I learnt the hard way, if I can stop one person from making the same mistakes, then that piece has been worthwhile.

Download the MIB forms, to see the information you'll be required to give. Then consider your situation again.


----------



## Marli (10 Mar 2021)

I'm confused by your response. 

MIB forms are not just for people who have been hit by untraceable/uninsured drivers? This wasn't the case for me. The driver is identified and has accepted fault.

You seem to be suggesting that self-representation and no-win, no-fee are both a bad option. Paying a solicitor definitely isn't - have you seen their fees?

I don't know how long ago your accident was, but we all can have access to our medical records now, although I don't disagree that the insurance company may not be satisfied with these.


----------



## Marli (10 Mar 2021)

Drago said:


> The alternative is that its their goal to give you as much money as possible. That seems highly implausible.
> 
> 1. The insurers pay their own solicitors on a retainer, not on a case by case basis. They pay them the same whether they jerk you about or not, whether they're working hard tomresolve cases or playing office golf.
> 
> ...



I am not under any illusion about the goal of the insurance company. I was trying to establish what was fair compensation to claim for the injuries I sustained whilst their policy holder was driving without due care and attention, by comparing it with other people's experiences, but it's too subjective.


----------



## Marli (10 Mar 2021)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> WHich is why you need a solicitor whose fee they will end up paying - gives them an incentive to keep the process short



True, but remember that it is not in the financial interest of the solicitor to go to court either, because they cannot claim their full costs. The claimant is the pawn in all this.


----------



## icowden (10 Mar 2021)

Marli said:


> You seem to be suggesting that self-representation and no-win, no-fee are both a bad option. Paying a solicitor definitely isn't - have you seen their fees?




Self representation: Risk of getting much lower compensation than you are entitled to.
No_Win / No Fee - You pay an insurance premium up front to cover costs should you lose and may have to pay a success fee. You can't lose as liability has been admitted - therefore this doesn't seem like a good option.
Regular legal representation. Your solicitor represents you. All of his (or her) costs are paid for by the insurance company. There is a small risk that if you settle for less than an amount already offered by the insurance company that you would be liable for your solicitors costs.
Find a local reputable Personal Injury Solicitor and talk to them. They should see you for free and advise you of the likely costs and whether you would be better to represent yourself or engage them. It costs you nothing to present your case and ask for initial advice as to whether they should take it.


----------



## Marli (10 Mar 2021)

icowden said:


> Self representation: Risk of getting much lower compensation than you are entitled to.
> No_Win / No Fee - You pay an insurance premium up front to cover costs should you lose and may have to pay a success fee. You can't lose as liability has been admitted - therefore this doesn't seem like a good option.
> Regular legal representation. Your solicitor represents you. All of his (or her) costs are paid for by the insurance company. There is a small risk that if you settle for less than an amount already offered by the insurance company that you would be liable for your solicitors costs.
> Find a local reputable Personal Injury Solicitor and talk to them. They should see you for free and advise you of the likely costs and whether you would be better to represent yourself or engage them. It costs you nothing to present your case and ask for initial advice as to whether they should take it.



I'm not sure whether 'regular' legal representation is paid for by the insurance company of the the third-party. If that were the case the solicitors I have spoken to would not be pushing me down the no-win, no-fee (taking 25% - 40%) route. There has to be some cap on what a solicitor can claim, otherwise any claimant where the liability has already been accepted would not need the service.


----------



## icowden (10 Mar 2021)

There isn't a cap. A solicitor can claim any reasonable costs from the insurers if full liability is admitted.
The usual problem is determining what a solicitor thinks is "reasonable". This can lead to an argument between the solicitor and their opponent but that isn't your problem.

No Win no fee works on the basis that the Slicitor is taking on a risk, so therefore they can charge a success fee which comes out of your compensation. Better solicitors won't actually do this - they will rely on you taking out an insurance policy that covers the fees if you lose. And in your case they are not taking a risk, as there is no liability to argue.


----------



## classic33 (10 Mar 2021)

Marli said:


> I'm confused by your response.
> 
> MIB forms are not just for people who have been hit by untraceable/uninsured drivers? This wasn't the case for me. The driver is identified and has accepted fault.
> 
> ...


The MIB forms give a very good indication of the information that will be expected from you. Especially if you're representing yourself, how much of those forms can you fill in?
Liability may have been admitted, but you'll need to present your case to a judge, who may have only skimmed through both arguments. Noting case law, previous similar cases. 
The clearer, and more precise that information is presented, the better.

16 years ago the end of this month. Even then, in theory, I had access to my records. Place a request to see them, and wait. At the time the doctor(s) named on those records had to present otherwise it was a straight "No" to the requests. 
Be aware that each NHS Trust hold their own records, and requests for access has to be made to each trust.

You have access to the police records. Your statement and that of the driver I take it?

Solicitors Costs:
£50 per letter sent.
£150 per hour spent on the case.

No Win, No Fee Costs:
£15 per phonecall.
£25 per letter copied.
£75 per letter sent.
£150 per hour spent on the case.
£200 for the written medical report.
£??? for the medical examination itself.

Given I'd most of what they asked for, and more, to hand, it seemed at the start that it couldn't cost that much. How wrong I was. They were also new to handling cases where a cyclist was the injured party. They weren't, as far as I could see, acting in their clients interests and seemed incapable of doing so. 
Complaint lodged with the Law Society and the case handed over to a company that were used to dealing with this type of claim. They lodged a claim to recovering their costs, should I be successful. I countered with a similar claim for costs, using their pricing. My claim was £5,000 more than theirs. Due simply to the fact that I'd done most of the work myself, before approaching them. The only thing they had, that I didn't was the medical report.

One piece of advice I'll give is, unless you have in writing, that the driver's insurance company have actually admitted anything, don't put it up in a place that can be seen.

Your best course of action, as more than myself have said, is seek the advice of a solicitor who has experience of this type of case.

Where letters has been used, count in any e-mails sent.


----------



## classic33 (11 Mar 2021)

@Marli, my question when I was approaching having to go to court. 
Note the warning, from a solicitor used to dealing with these type of claims, with regards court action.

The driver and owner, seperate people, just refused to say any more at that point. Driver wasn't the owner and the owner refused to name the driver at the time of the incident.

https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/one-for-those-who-have-been-down-this-road.6970/


----------



## Marli (11 Mar 2021)

icowden said:


> There isn't a cap. A solicitor can claim any reasonable costs from the insurers if full liability is admitted.
> The usual problem is determining what a solicitor thinks is "reasonable". This can lead to an argument between the solicitor and their opponent but that isn't your problem.
> 
> No Win no fee works on the basis that the Slicitor is taking on a risk, so therefore they can charge a success fee which comes out of your compensation. Better solicitors won't actually do this - they will rely on you taking out an insurance policy that covers the fees if you lose. And in your case they are not taking a risk, as there is no liability to argue.



Then you have to ask the question, why would multiple solicitors push me to the no-win, no-fee route?


----------



## Marli (11 Mar 2021)

classic33 said:


> One piece of advice I'll give is, unless you have in writing, that the driver's insurance company have actually admitted anything, don't put it up in a place that can be seen.



I have, but elaborate why not.


----------



## Marli (11 Mar 2021)

classic33 said:


> 16 years ago the end of this month. Even then, in theory, I had access to my records. Place a request to see them, and wait. At the time the doctor(s) named on those records had to present otherwise it was a straight "No" to the requests.
> Be aware that each NHS Trust hold their own records, and requests for access has to be made to each trust.



We all, if we choose, have on-line access to our GP records. I am familiar with NHS Trust and data requests from past experience not relating to myself. You seem to have had an all-round bad experience post-accident.


----------



## Zanelad (11 Mar 2021)

As Abraham Lincoln once said "A man who is his own lawyer has a fool for a client"


----------



## classic33 (11 Mar 2021)

Marli said:


> We all, if we choose, have on-line access to our GP records. I am familiar with NHS Trust and data requests from past experience not relating to myself. You seem to have had an all-round bad experience post-accident.


And where I was, you are now. Considering dealing with the matter yourself. And if by pointing out what happened, I save someone else going through the same, it'd be worth passing that information on.

I've tried to point out the pitfalls you may face, as have others. The only thing I'm not certain of is the current costs of filing the claim in the small claims court, so can't advise.

I'll leave you to pursue it your way, and wish you luck.


----------



## Marli (13 Mar 2021)

Zanelad said:


> As Abraham Lincoln once said "A man who is his own lawyer has a fool for a client"



Odd quote considering Lincoln was a self-taught lawyer - perhaps he didn't want to lose any income by dissuading other people doing the same. I much before the Dickens quote " The one great principle of English law is to make business for itself. "


----------

