# Black Ice, Clipless vs Flats?



## Sharky (23 Nov 2017)

I've been riding clipless pedals, almost since they were invented and before that clips & toe straps, almost 57 years, so the usual "Clipless Moment" has no worries for me. However, last January, took a spill on black ice that has shaken me up a bit. I was clipped in and went down with all the impact taken on my thigh/hip, in fact my pelvis was fractured and is still fragile. On this last spill, my right shoe remained clipped in.

My question is aimed at anybody who has lost their front wheel on black ice and has gone down and whether clipped in or on flats. If on the latter, did it enable you to react quicker and were you able to stick your leg out to prevent the fall or to minimise the fall.

As the cold & frosty months are approaching, I am considering putting some MTB/flat pedals on my road bike until mid February.

Thanks


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## dave r (23 Nov 2017)

Usually if the front goes it goes too quick to react, if you can react then I suspect you might have more chance on flats or loose clips and straps.


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## Racing roadkill (23 Nov 2017)

Sharky said:


> I've been riding clipless pedals, almost since they were invented and before that clips & toe straps, almost 57 years, so the usual "Clipless Moment" has no worries for me. However, last January, took a spill on black ice that has shaken me up a bit. I was clipped in and went down with all the impact taken on my thigh/hip, in fact my pelvis was fractured and is still fragile. On this last spill, my right shoe remained clipped in.
> 
> My question is aimed at anybody who has lost their front wheel on black ice and has gone down and whether clipped in or on flats. If on the latter, did it enable you to react quicker and were you able to stick your leg out to prevent the fall or to minimise the fall.
> 
> ...



I’ve come a cropper twice, on frost / ice. Once with clipless, once with flats. It made no difference, as soon as you’re going over because of ice, it’s over too quickly to even think, let alone get anything out to try and prevent a tumble, IME. In fact I had less issues with the feet clipped in, in regards to stopping my leg getting bent out of shape / trapped in the wheels, clipped in, getting feet out of the pedal under the bike was a little more undignified with the clipped in approach though. You’d find it difficult to have such issues on a Trike.


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## summerdays (23 Nov 2017)

Black ice, it's very quick when you go over ... there isn't any time to think at all!

Would you consider spiked tyres.... I'm just getting to the point of considering putting them back on the spare bike (though it usually takes one icy morning to make me get around to doing it.


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## screenman (23 Nov 2017)

May be that being clipped in could be safer, in that you are not going to stick a leg out and get it broken. Now that line could well be rubbish, I remember being told not to let go of the bars when coming off ( easier said than done) to help avoid a broken collar bone.


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## Racing roadkill (23 Nov 2017)

screenman said:


> May be that being clipped in could be safer, in that you are not going to stick a leg out and get it broken. Now that line could well be rubbish, I remember being told not to let go of the bars when coming off ( easier said than done) to help avoid a broken collar bone.


It’s like falling off a horse, fight the urge to stick your arm out, or risk your scaphoid and collar bone getting broken.


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## buzzy-beans (23 Nov 2017)

Hello Sharky, I am and always have been a toe strap rider and have never found that I can get on with clipped pedals and by the same context riding a bike with plain double sided pedals I always have had difficulty with.

Riding a bike is very much the same as riding a horse, it all comes down to your baseline contact and general balance, some people have lightning fast reactions and are able to foresee the event which is about to happen, having almost a 6th sense in doing so.

I was out with a group of friends some years ago, riding approximately in the middle of the pack when one by one, lightning fast they all started to fall like skittles in a bowling alley but heaven knows why I was still upright although my bike did have quite a wobbly moment!

From my experience on horses, bikes and in competition motoring I honestly do believe the problem is that the vast majority of people stiffen up, as such, they tighten their grip on the handlebars, reins and or steering wheel and in so doing they significantly reduce their bodies ability to react, so hopefully you won't take exception to me suggesting you should _HANG LOOSE_.


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## Sharky (23 Nov 2017)

Racing roadkill said:


> I’ve come a cropper twice, on frost / ice. Once with clipless, once with flats. It made no difference, as soon as you’re going over because of ice, it’s over too quickly to even think, let alone get anything out to try and prevent a tumble, IME. In fact I had less issues with the feet clipped in, in regards to stopping my leg getting bent out of shape / trapped in the wheels, clipped in, getting feet out of the pedal under the bike was a little more undignified with the clipped in approach though. You’d find it difficult to have such issues on a Trike.



I have been thinking about a trike option. I do have a tandem trike, but they are a bit pricey. Might investigate.


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## Sharky (23 Nov 2017)

summerdays said:


> Black ice, it's very quick when you go over ... there isn't any time to think at all!
> 
> Would you consider spiked tyres.... I'm just getting to the point of considering putting them back on the spare bike (though it usually takes one icy morning to make me get around to doing it.


Hadn't thought about spiked tyres. Might be worth putting one on the front. How effective are they on black ice and do you notice them when riding when it's not icy?


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## Sharky (23 Nov 2017)

screenman said:


> May be that being clipped in could be safer, in that you are not going to stick a leg out and get it broken. Now that line could well be rubbish, I remember being told not to let go of the bars when coming off ( easier said than done) to help avoid a broken collar bone.


Gone down on two other occasions as well in the last 10yrs resulting in broken collar bones both sides! I think I kept hold of the bars, but it happens very quickly.
Now that I think about it, the trike option is looking more attractive.


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## summerdays (23 Nov 2017)

Sharky said:


> Hadn't thought about spiked tyres. Might be worth putting one on the front. How effective are they on black ice and do you notice them when riding when it's not icy?


Bike is a bit slower, and makes a crunchy noise especially when frosty... but you can cycle over pure ice and stay upright. Somewhere I have a photo...





No problems cycling across that.

I've got on the back and front... and if I was having them I don't see why I wouldn't do both... anything to stay upright.


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## screenman (23 Nov 2017)

Sharky said:


> Gone down on two other occasions as well in the last 10yrs resulting in broken collar bones both sides! I think I kept hold of the bars, but it happens very quickly.
> Now that I think about it, the trike option is looking more attractive.



Ouch! But I still think being tucked in may be safer. I have also had my fair share of tumbles, racing off road for over 20 years takes care of that.


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## mjr (23 Nov 2017)

Sharky said:


> My question is aimed at anybody who has lost their front wheel on black ice and has gone down and whether clipped in or on flats. If on the latter, did it enable you to react quicker and were you able to stick your leg out to prevent the fall or to minimise the fall.


I was on flats and had no time to react. I cracked my handlebars but only bruised myself. I think the bike was otherwise OK.

I don't think you get any time to react with black ice. I've vague memories of sliding sideways down the road when I was younger. The only times I remember using my feet to save a fall were on white ice and snow.



Sharky said:


> Hadn't thought about spiked tyres. Might be worth putting one on the front. How effective are they on black ice and do you notice them when riding when it's not icy?


In my experience, they're scarily effective and you really do notice them when riding, losing lots of power to the increased rolling resistance. I rode all the way to the shop cursing that I'd used them when there wasn't any ice around - then on the way home, I was riding towards the sun and could see it reflecting off the mirror-like surfaces I'd ridden over without noticing


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## Jason (23 Nov 2017)

any vehicle on black ice is going to be a challenge. something with two wheels isn't suited to that condition, even with spiked tyres.


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## Sharky (23 Nov 2017)

Just came across this ancient post

https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/road-bike-studded-tyres.83268/

The max tyre I've ever used is a 28mm and this just fits my Ribble Winter frame, so I don't think studded tyres for the road bike is an option. I was using Conti City Contacts 28mm, which have a good tread pattern, but didn't stop me from sliding on black ice.


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## Sharky (23 Nov 2017)

The other option I have been thinking about is to get an outdoor thermometer and just not go out when the temp falls below 8 degrees. We have mild winters down in Kent, so won't be too many non cycling days.


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## screenman (23 Nov 2017)

Sharky said:


> The other option I have been thinking about is to get an outdoor thermometer and just not go out when the temp falls below 8 degrees. We have mild winters down in Kent, so won't be too many non cycling days.



That sounds like a plan that I can live with.


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## raleighnut (23 Nov 2017)

Trike with a 250W electric front wheel here.


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## Drago (23 Nov 2017)

No reason why your reactions should be any slower when clipped in. Indeed, if it starts to go, pull upwards on the inside pedal in the rear position and that helps right the bike. Can't do that on flats. It's difficult to find a suitable environment to practice, so the moment there's any snow I'm straight out and at it.


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## screenman (23 Nov 2017)

I feel I have more control clipped in.


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## Banjo (23 Nov 2017)

I have come off on black ice several times both clipped in and on flats. You go down so fast I don't think it would make much difference tbh. Came down hard twice on a winter audax no injuries and bike still rideable but with minus 3 at the start I should have known better.Much less likely to ride on icy days now.


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## Supersuperleeds (23 Nov 2017)

This thread has reminded me that I need to see if I can still get my studded tyres on the bike as I've added mudguards to the winter bike this year, if not the mudguards are coming off.


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## GuyBoden (23 Nov 2017)

Sharky said:


> The other option I have been thinking about is to get an outdoor thermometer and just not go out when the temp falls below 8 degrees.



That's my plan too, any sign of ice and I don't ride..................


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## NickNick (23 Nov 2017)

buzzy-beans said:


> From my experience on horses, bikes and in competition motoring* I honestly do believe the problem is that the vast majority of people stiffen up,* as such, they tighten their grip on the handlebars, reins and or steering wheel and in so doing they significantly reduce their bodies ability to react, so hopefully you won't take exception to me suggesting you should _HANG LOOSE_.



This is very true, its why often in a collision between a drunk driver and a sober driver where both cars experience equal damage/force, the drunk driver tends to come out better as they don't tense up pre impact due to their reduced reaction time.


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## Sharky (23 Nov 2017)

NickNick said:


> This is very true, its why often in a collision between a drunk driver and a sober driver where both cars experience equal damage/force, the drunk driver tends to come out better as they don't tense up pre impact due to their reduced reaction time.



Could be a bit of truth in that. Recall an end of season club run a long time ago and more than a few pints of Guinness. It was a bit icy on that day as well and I had a bit of a spill. Didn't hurt a bit - until I got home. 

I was lucky, one of the other riders collided with a duck pond.


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## mjr (23 Nov 2017)

Sharky said:


> The other option I have been thinking about is to get an outdoor thermometer and just not go out when the temp falls below 8 degrees. We have mild winters down in Kent, so won't be too many non cycling days.


That seems far too cautious. It's almost always OK with a shaded air temperature above 4 degrees even out in the sticks. You can even get away with one or two degrees colder when it's sunny, except for shady ice traps.


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## raleighnut (23 Nov 2017)

mjr said:


> That seems far too cautious. It's almost always OK with a shaded air temperature above 4 degrees even out in the sticks. You can even get away with one or two degrees colder when it's sunny, except for shady ice traps *on bends*.



FTFY, but why are they always on bends/junctions FFS


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## jefmcg (23 Nov 2017)

summerdays said:


> Black ice, it's very quick when you go over ... there isn't any time to think at all!





mjr said:


> I don't think you get any time to react with black ice.



This. I've described my my black ice experience as "the hand of God". You're cycling happily along and then you are on the ground, like someone snatched your bike from under you. Getting a foot down was never an option.


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## mjr (23 Nov 2017)

raleighnut said:


> FTFY, but why are they always on bends/junctions FFS


Because you often get away with riding over them in a straight line but if you try to turn the front wheel, it's BANG and  - I have seen someone wipe out because they realised the bend ahead was iced over, so they tried to steer into the verge on the preceding straight which was also iced over by that point and down they went. I just about managed to stop by braking in a straight line much further back down the straight.


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## raleighnut (23 Nov 2017)

Of course some vehicles are naturally superior on ice




View: https://youtu.be/OAtN_F_tu1Q


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## Threevok (23 Nov 2017)

Speaking from experience, don't use clipless pedals in icy conditions. 

I've had a couple of nasty offs that could have been prevented by getting my foot down quicker

I don't even use my SPDs in muddy conditions these days, although that's usually softer to land on


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## screenman (23 Nov 2017)

I used to fall of before we started using clipped in pedals, I have fallen off less since using them. Never seen a cross race or MTB race in the last twenty years where most riders were not using clipped in systems.


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## Ming the Merciless (23 Nov 2017)

Get a sit up and beg bike then you are less likely to hurt yourself if the front wheel goes.


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## mjr (23 Nov 2017)

YukonBoy said:


> Get a sit up and beg bike then you are less likely to hurt yourself if the front wheel goes.


Often claimed but is it true? I'd love it if it was as I most often ride a Dutch bike, but I'm not convinced it is.


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## screenman (23 Nov 2017)

YukonBoy said:


> Get a sit up and beg bike then you are less likely to hurt yourself if the front wheel goes.



Why? I would have thought you have further to fall.


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## mjr (23 Nov 2017)

screenman said:


> Why? I would have thought you have further to fall.


Well, I'd expect you're more likely to be within the width of the wider sweeping handlebars and so protected by them when you hit the deck if the wheels slide out from under you and probably less likely to be thrown forwards over the bars than if you were already leaning further forwards, but I suspect it's approximately negated by the typically greater ride height that you mention, so I doubt there's a measurable difference... and I'm not sure how you'd measure it anyway.


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## Threevok (23 Nov 2017)

All the injuries I have suffered have been elbow or hip related. This was using MTB riser bars though


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## Bodhbh (23 Nov 2017)

Threevok said:


> All the injuries I have suffered have been elbow or hip related. This was using MTB riser bars though



It's nearly always been the upper body that's taken it here - I have a couple of jackets held together with tenatious tape that testify to that.

I've never used clip in, and like other say, the 3-4 offs I recall having on ice I don't think I had chance to do much. Even when I knew it was there and wasn't going much past 5mph. I've not go the nerve for it either - studded tyres or do something else here.


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## Ming the Merciless (23 Nov 2017)

Your head does mot hurtle to the road if the front wheel goes and it is easier to get your feet down. The bike tends not to move violently and quickly beneath you due to your positioning and the weight distribution.


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## Tin Pot (23 Nov 2017)

Sharky said:


> I've been riding clipless pedals, almost since they were invented and before that clips & toe straps, almost 57 years, so the usual "Clipless Moment" has no worries for me. However, last January, took a spill on black ice that has shaken me up a bit. I was clipped in and went down with all the impact taken on my thigh/hip, in fact my pelvis was fractured and is still fragile. On this last spill, my right shoe remained clipped in.
> 
> My question is aimed at anybody who has lost their front wheel on black ice and has gone down and whether clipped in or on flats. If on the latter, did it enable you to react quicker and were you able to stick your leg out to prevent the fall or to minimise the fall.
> 
> ...


Don’t go out when it’s icy.

Pedals won’t make an ounce of difference.


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## HLaB (23 Nov 2017)

Clipless may help you stay more balanced and smooth over it where as with flats you may instinctively throw out a leg and that wobble will be enough to start a slide. If you are already sliding though I don't think it'll matter what pedals you have


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## Threevok (23 Nov 2017)

It's no so much slides that are the problem, it's the low speed front wheel wipeouts that get you.

I had one once on a flattened plastic bottle, that ended up with a broken elbow


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## NickNick (23 Nov 2017)

Threevok said:


> It's no so much slides that are the problem, it's the low speed front wheel wipeouts that get you.
> 
> I had one once on a flattened plastic bottle, that ended up with a broken elbow



I had a hairy one last, turning right onto road when it was really windy and a gust blew a small branch under front wheel, just about stayed up, but it was in the lap of the gods!


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## GuyBoden (24 Nov 2017)

Sharky said:


> The other option I have been thinking about is to get an outdoor thermometer and just not go out when the temp falls below 8 degrees. We have mild winters down in Kent, so won't be too many non cycling days.



My "Thermometer", the ice has melted on the roof, so I'm out for a ride on my bike.


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## Sharky (24 Nov 2017)

GuyBoden said:


> My "Thermometer", the ice has melted on the roof, so I'm out for a ride on my bike.


That was my mistake last January. There was still ice on the car windscreen when I pushed my bike past the car.


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## Arjimlad (24 Nov 2017)

I've got those double sided Shimano pedals with a platform around them on the winter commuting bike. When I approach a bend & it has been icy, I will take it slow and unclip as I've been able to mitigate the full impact in the past doing this. Last winter I got the Schwalbe winter tyres @summerdays mentioned and they were very good, gave me a lot more confidence after a couple of icy falls.


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## Sharky (24 Nov 2017)

Thanks for all your replies. As far as pedals and black ice is concerned, I think the general opinion is that it doesn't matter which, so I will keep to my clipless pedals. But I am going to keep an eye on temperatures and avoid the really cold days.

In terms of just falling off under other conditions, something which in the last 10 years seems to be on the increase for me, I am going to start saving for a trike!


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## gbb (25 Nov 2017)

Racing roadkill said:


> It’s like falling off a horse, fight the urge to stick your arm out, or risk your scaphoid and collar bone getting broken.


Or you risk a dislocated finger...DAMHIKT.


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## InchPitch (28 Nov 2017)

I came a cropper on some black ice a few years ago when we had the v cold winters in UK. No time to react, bam, much hurty body and bent crank.
Bought some spiked tyres - absolutely fantastic. Felt safer on the spikey bike than trying to walk. Good on slippy wood bridges too.

Downside - slow, noisy, heavy. They slip on metal drain covers. oh and don't spin the wheels and then use your hand to slow the wheel.
I guess the noise tells people you are coming :-). Scares dogs away and should one be stupid (or badly controlled) enough to run in front of the wheel .....

Apart from that - just awesome. I put them on my road bike and mountain bike when the black ice comes.

Excellent on thin snow too. One winters day I was the only person that made it into the office. Which was good - cause I got paid.
But my thoughts of getting on undisturbed were quickly shattered by having to answer the phones all day. :-)





Sharky said:


> Hadn't thought about spiked tyres. Might be worth putting one on the front. How effective are they on black ice and do you notice them when riding when it's not icy?


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## NickNick (28 Nov 2017)

InchPitch said:


> I came a cropper on some black ice a few years ago when we had the v cold winters in UK. No time to react, bam, much hurty body and bent crank.
> Bought some spiked tyres - absolutely fantastic. Felt safer on the spikey bike than trying to walk. Good on slippy wood bridges too.
> 
> Downside - slow, noisy, heavy. They slip on metal drain covers. oh and don't spin the wheels and then use your hand to slow the wheel.
> ...




What size are the ones on your road bike? Would be tempted to get some if it looks like we're going to get a proper winter this year, but don't have all that much tyre clearance on this bike.


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## Threevok (28 Nov 2017)

I doubt if mine would fit your bike - 2.35 on the front and 2.1 on the back 

Schwalbe do the Marathon winter down to 1.6
or the Winter Spike road down to 1.1/2, 1.2, 1.75 and 35c


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## Threevok (28 Nov 2017)

Forgot to mention - Other makes are available. 

Pssst. Get Schwalbe


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## keithmac (28 Nov 2017)

I was mulling over spiked tyres this year, I commute to work on the bike so no option but to brave the ice.

How long do they last if it's not icy?.


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## summerdays (28 Nov 2017)

I came across my receipt recently and mine are now 8 years old. I only tend to use mine on the colder days but they do end up being used on tarmac without ice.


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## Threevok (28 Nov 2017)

keithmac said:


> I was mulling over spiked tyres this year, I commute to work on the bike so no option but to brave the ice.
> 
> How long do they last if it's not icy?.



Not sure about the road ones. but my Ice Spiker Pros - over 7 years. The front one is new though, a dog bit through the sidewall of the last one.

The spikes are getting a bit dull on the rear, but I have not lost any yet.

Steel spiked ones wont last as long, but when you consider how little you use them, they should last quite well.

Mine were extremely expensive (£75+ each) but considering the amount of work days I didn't miss - they have more than paid for themselves.


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## Ian H (28 Nov 2017)

My worst experience on black ice was a few years ago now. 

I was at a reasonable speed on fixed-wheel on a straight, narrow road with a pronounced camber. The front wheel started skittering down the camber. With a bit of care I managed to get to the crown of the road, then a car came the opposite way. A modicum of leg-braking sent the back wheel fish-tailing, and I had to be rather careful moving over just enough to let them pass without sliding down the camber again. I continued at a more cautious pace to my destination.

The biggest problem is not being able to ride fast enough to keep warm.


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## buzzy-beans (28 Nov 2017)

@Ian H I would think after that experience there was something coming out of your body which melted all the black ice for miles around !!


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## jefmcg (28 Nov 2017)

buzzy-beans said:


> @Ian H I would think after that experience there was something coming out of your body which melted all the black ice for miles around !!


Uh uh. It would just replace it with brown ice.


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## Pale Rider (28 Nov 2017)

keithmac said:


> I was mulling over spiked tyres this year, I commute to work on the bike so no option but to brave the ice.
> 
> How long do they last if it's not icy?.



The instructions for my Schwalbe studed tyres say pump them up a bit when it's not icy.

This means the tyre runs more on the central no-studded ridge, so more like an ordinary tyre.

You can tell by the volume of the tell-tale rice crispies sound.

A loud snap, crackle and pop means the pressure is low and the studs are making good contact with road surface.

A feint sound means the reverse - pressure is high and the spikes are making limited contact with the road surface.

As others have said, they work a treat, particularly on black ice, enabling you to cycle on a surface on which it would be difficult to walk.

Long sheets of black ice are rare, but stopping on black ice can be hazardous because your planted foot slips.


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