# Dilemma



## iancity (1 Aug 2019)

Bike shop A - bike £999. Excellent customer service. Very knowledgable and friendly staff. Free bike fit (£69 if bought separately). 25% off clothing for 3 months and 10% off hardware for a year. 70 mile and a 2 hour round trip. 
Bike shop B - same bike, same size, in stock £799. Issues with them in the past. Lied about what year a particular bike on sale was (said 2018, it was a 2016 model). Said impossible to fit mudguards to my bike (took it to shop A who did it in half an hour). Issues with their bike build on a previous bike bought through them which ended up costing me around £100. 15 mile and 40 minute round trip. 

Shop a will not price match or reduce at all. Both authorised dealers, not sure why b has the sale and a doesn’t. 

I’m pretty certain i’m going for A, but, £200

What would you do ?


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## screenman (1 Aug 2019)

A every time.


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## NorthernDave (1 Aug 2019)

It's got to be A. 

What's £200 over the life of a bike, especially given you've had issues with shop B before?


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## lane (1 Aug 2019)

In all honesty I expect I would go with B and possibly live to regret it.


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## vickster (1 Aug 2019)

A and make use of all the freebies and discounts


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## winjim (1 Aug 2019)

A. Absolutely A.


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## Drago (1 Aug 2019)

B. Money talks.


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## Cycleops (1 Aug 2019)

Your wallet might tell you B but your head and ongoing experience should say A.


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## Johnno260 (1 Aug 2019)

Can’t put a price on good service A


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## Slick (1 Aug 2019)

A would be my choice, but I would as a minimum split the 200 quid difference with the guy.


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## graham bowers (1 Aug 2019)

Shop A, no question. You've had too many issues with B, they are sh!te.


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## AuroraSaab (1 Aug 2019)

Normally it would be the cheaper shop every time, but if I felt ripped off previously I would rather ride a £10 scrapper than give them another penny. Can you get the same bike online at the reduced price?


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## winjim (1 Aug 2019)

Assuming you want the bike fit and that shop B's build quality is the same as last time:

Shop A:

Bike 999
Bike fit 0
Ton worth of clothes 75
Ton worth of spares 90
Total 1164


Shop B:

Bike 799
Bike fit 69
Fixing their shitty build 100
Ton worth of clothes 100
Ton worth of spares 100
Total 1168

So buy from shop A and have the satisfaction that your money is going to people who probably deserve it.


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## Slioch (1 Aug 2019)

Is there an option C - buy online at a cheaper price the A or B?


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## lane (1 Aug 2019)

winjim said:


> Assuming you want the bike fit and that shop B's build quality is the same as last time:
> 
> Shop A:
> 
> ...



Forget the discounts you won't save anything compared to online after the discount. Bike fit of debatable value personally I would rather fit myself. How is the build so poor it costs £100 to rectify?


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## Vantage (1 Aug 2019)

If I didn't know a hammer from a screwdriver and money was no object, I'd go with A.
But I do and it is, so B.
If A really valued your current and future custom, they'd go someway to meeting you halfway.


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## i hate hills (2 Aug 2019)

Halfords £200 budget model and save yourself a wad ....works for me


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## gavroche (2 Aug 2019)

Do you really need another bike?


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## alicat (2 Aug 2019)

Ditch B and look for another option as comparison to A.


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## SkipdiverJohn (2 Aug 2019)

Vantage said:


> If A really valued your current and future custom, they'd go someway to meeting you halfway.



It's a difficult one this. On a purely price level, I'd say B - but at the same time I don't believe unprofessional retailers who provide poor customer service deserve to be rewarded for it by giving them repeat business.
However, if I was buying a big ticket item with a substantial retail mark-up, which bikes and accessories have, I'd expect at least a token sweetener discount in return for A getting my business rather than shop B. After all, £50 off a £1k bike isn't going to kill them, and it's another sale all said and done.
The discounts being offered off bike fits, clothing, and gear are no good if you don't actually want a bike fit, clothing, or gear. I'd sooner have a few notes knocked off the bike itself. It reminds me of the old trick used in the motor trade where bits like extra mats and mudflaps etc would be throw in, but the dealer was still reluctant to discount the car price from RRP.

Given the choice of a good dealer who wants to charge full price and only offer discounts on extras I might not want, or a crap dealer who is cheap, but I would begrudge giving them a penny, I'd probably look for an option C, which might involve buying the same thing either online, or buying secondhand way cheaper than either A or B.


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## hoopdriver (2 Aug 2019)

Go with A. I’m guessing it will be cheaper in the long run. You could always tell them about shop B’s price and explain your quandary. They may well come down a bit, but even if not they seem to me the better deal. 

Why buy online? Yes, it might be cheaper still, but surely having a decent local bike shop is worth something. Is the online shop going to offer meaningful advice, fit your mudguards, be there when you need repairs, do a bike fit? The people who will, and do, run shops that require customers to survive. Yes, the prices may be higher than online, but you are buying something worthwhile for that extra money.

Price should not be the sole criteria. That’s just foolish


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## mustang1 (2 Aug 2019)

Shop A.


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## screenman (2 Aug 2019)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> It's a difficult one this. On a purely price level, I'd say B - but at the same time I don't believe unprofessional retailers who provide poor customer service deserve to be rewarded for it by giving them repeat business.
> However, if I was buying a big ticket item with a substantial retail mark-up, which bikes and accessories have, I'd expect at least a token sweetener discount in return for A getting my business rather than shop B. After all, £50 off a £1k bike isn't going to kill them, and it's another sale all said and done.
> The discounts being offered off bike fits, clothing, and gear are no good if you don't actually want a bike fit, clothing, or gear. I'd sooner have a few notes knocked off the bike itself. It reminds me of the old trick used in the motor trade where bits like extra mats and mudflaps etc would be throw in, but the dealer was still reluctant to discount the car price from RRP.
> 
> Given the choice of a good dealer who wants to charge full price and only offer discounts on extras I might not want, or a crap dealer who is cheap, but I would begrudge giving them a penny, I'd probably look for an option C, which might involve buying the same thing either online, or buying secondhand way cheaper than either A or B.



If bike shops as you say have large margins how come so many shut? could it be they are not making a profit. That £50 could in a lot of times be way less than they make selling that bike.


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## winjim (2 Aug 2019)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> However, if I was buying a big ticket item with a substantial retail mark-up, which bikes and accessories have, I'd expect at least a token sweetener discount in return for A getting my business rather than shop B. After all, £50 off a £1k bike isn't going to kill them, and it's another sale all said and done.


Do you know what the markup is on a bike? I got a good deal on my last purchase and was surprised at how little the shop was making. Factor in the mechanic's time spent building it, plus business costs, and there ain't much left.



lane said:


> Forget the discounts you won't save anything compared to online after the discount. Bike fit of debatable value personally I would rather fit myself. How is the build so poor it costs £100 to rectify?


Dunno but that's the figure quoted in the OP. Buy online if you want to, but don't complain when the only bike shops left have inept mechanics, crappy service and there's nobody left to fit your mudguards.


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## screenman (2 Aug 2019)

winjim said:


> Do you know what the markup is on a bike? I got a good deal on my last purchase and was surprised at how little the shop was making. Factor in the mechanic's time spent building it, plus business costs, and there ain't much left.
> 
> Dunno but that's the figure quoted in the OP. Buy online if you want to, but don't complain when the only bike shops left have inept mechanics, crappy service and there's nobody left to fit your mudguards.



Very few people seem to understand the difference between margin and profit.


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## Sharky (2 Aug 2019)

Wait a little and keep a look out. Getting towards the end of the season and next year's models will be out soon. Might get some bargains on the 2019 models.


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## lane (2 Aug 2019)

winjim said:


> Do you know what the markup is on a bike? I got a good deal on my last purchase and was surprised at how little the shop was making. Factor in the mechanic's time spent building it, plus business costs, and there ain't much left.
> 
> Dunno but that's the figure quoted in the OP. Buy online if you want to, but don't complain when the only bike shops left have inept mechanics, crappy service and there's nobody left to fit your mudguards.



What I meant was buy accesories and clothes online (not the bike) and they will be as cheap as the shop after the discount so no real saving.


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## MrPie (2 Aug 2019)

B
Didn’t get to where I am today by throwing away £200


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## KneesUp (2 Aug 2019)

screenman said:


> Very few people seem to understand the difference between margin and profit.


Bikes always seem over-priced to me - you can get a Focus or similar for 20 to 25x the price of a mid-spec bike, and no amount of economies of scale overcome the fact that the car has about 140x as much material in it including all sorts of exotic elements in even the most basic car. I fail to see how a few welded tubes, a couple of wheels, some bearings, two wheels and some springs and levers can be £800. I know 'BSOs' are bobbins, but the cost differential in using slightly better aluminium or steel, and slightly better components, does not add up to £650.

I suspect that the bike manufacturers are controlling price. Not in an illegal way of course - there will be no contract saying you can't discount the bikes without permission, but I would speculate that if you did that, you might find that when you re-ordered stock they'd not have any to send you, or your credit limit would be reduced so you'd have to pay upfront, or something like that. In doing this they are maximising profits for themselves, not the retailers. So if you are a bike manufacturer, and you can make a bike for £100, you can sell it direct to the customer for £800, or you can sell it in to a bike shop for £600 and the bike shop can sell if for £800 (of which £134 is VAT, so they would make a profit of £66, less cost of sales, less tax) I don't know what the margin is - it's probably not that tight - but I would bet that the huge majority of the profit is going to the manufacturer, and they are allowing the shop just enough to keep them in business, because they need the shops to sell the bikes to consumers. That's the only model that makes sense economically.


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## winjim (2 Aug 2019)

screenman said:


> Very few people seem to understand the difference between margin and profit.


I also think people need to remember to take VAT into account. That £999 bike is really only an £830 bike.


lane said:


> What I meant was buy accesories and clothes online (not the bike) and they will be as cheap as the shop after the discount so no real saving.


i know what you meant. I also know that bike shop owners get frustrated when given parts to fit bought online that a) they could have supplied at the same price, and b) are not compatible anyway.



MrPie said:


> B
> Didn’t get to where I am today by throwing away £200


Think of it as an investment.


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## vickster (2 Aug 2019)

winjim said:


> I also think people need to remember to take VAT into account. That £999 bike is really only an £830 bike.
> i know what you meant. I also know that bike shop owners get frustrated when given parts to fit bought online that a) they could have supplied at the same price, and b) are not compatible anyway.
> .


My LBS is fine with it. They just charge a fiver bolt on fee


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## winjim (2 Aug 2019)

vickster said:


> My LBS is fine with it. They just charge a fiver bolt on fee


Yeah, my LBS will do it, let's face it they have little choice these days, it's the compatibility issue they get frustrated with. Buy direct from them, they'll price match and guarantee compatibility.


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## screenman (2 Aug 2019)

KneesUp said:


> Bikes always seem over-priced to me - you can get a Focus or similar for 20 to 25x the price of a mid-spec bike, and no amount of economies of scale overcome the fact that the car has about 140x as much material in it including all sorts of exotic elements in even the most basic car. I fail to see how a few welded tubes, a couple of wheels, some bearings, two wheels and some springs and levers can be £800. I know 'BSOs' are bobbins, but the cost differential in using slightly better aluminium or steel, and slightly better components, does not add up to £650.
> 
> I suspect that the bike manufacturers are controlling price. Not in an illegal way of course - there will be no contract saying you can't discount the bikes without permission, but I would speculate that if you did that, you might find that when you re-ordered stock they'd not have any to send you, or your credit limit would be reduced so you'd have to pay upfront, or something like that. In doing this they are maximising profits for themselves, not the retailers. So if you are a bike manufacturer, and you can make a bike for £100, you can sell it direct to the customer for £800, or you can sell it in to a bike shop for £600 and the bike shop can sell if for £800 (of which £134 is VAT, so they would make a profit of £66, less cost of sales, less tax) I don't know what the margin is - it's probably not that tight - but I would bet that the huge majority of the profit is going to the manufacturer, and they are allowing the shop just enough to keep them in business, because they need the shops to sell the bikes to consumers. That's the only model that makes sense economically.



The idea of running a business is to make money, I am sure you do the same with yours. Bike manufacturers unlike car makers often only get one bite of the cherry.

There was a tale going around many years ago the Austin made more selling a headlight for a mini than they did selling a mini.


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## KneesUp (2 Aug 2019)

screenman said:


> The idea of running a business is to make money, I am sure you do the same with yours. Bike manufacturers unlike car makers often only get one bite of the cherry.
> 
> There was a tale going around many years ago the Austin made more selling a headlight for a mini than they did selling a mini.


I wasn't disputing that the aim of most businesses is to make money - that was my point - that the bike manufacturers maximise profit for them, and leave just enough for the retailers to survive. Whilst it's true that bike manufacturers are less likely to make money on parts and servicing, there is also the thing that I would guess that the average person who has bought an £800+ bike new has bought more than one - perhaps a road bike and a mountain bike, for different uses - whereas relatively few people buy, say, a Golf GTI and a Touareg. 

Ford couldn't work out how Austin was making money on the Mini when it was launched, so they bought one, took it apart and costed it all - and concluded each one was sold at a loss (of around £30 per car, IIRC). I've found this - from 1973, when the car had been on sale for 14 years - saying that BLMC was still making a loss on each car sold - https://classics.honestjohn.co.uk/news/archive/1973-10/mini-still-sold-at-a-loss-blmc-says/ but that the profit from spares made it pretty much a break-even product. No wonder they didn't seem to care how badly stuff was made!


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## vickster (2 Aug 2019)

winjim said:


> Yeah, my LBS will do it, let's face it they have little choice these days, it's the compatibility issue they get frustrated with. Buy direct from them, they'll price match and guarantee compatibility.


I’m able to buy the right chain and cassette


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## lane (2 Aug 2019)

Sometimes buying your own kit online means you get exactly what you want. Then if necesary get the mechanic to fit it. If you leave it to the LBS they might not have or put on exactly what you wanted.


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## Gravity Aided (2 Aug 2019)

I know you all have a better standard of living than the States, but I can hardly imagine paying what you do for a bicycle. In many cases, the price you pay sounds more like the price I would pay, but in dollars, not pounds. For that, I would definitely prefer the shop A experience. We pass this way but once, no sense in going third class. It's more money, but what is money when you have to pay for that price with aggravation and possibly peril from a poorly built bicycle? When I ran photographic stores, we made but little on the cameras, and a lot on the lenses. When the point and shoot cameras came along, we had to make our whole money on the camera sale, because we sold the camera, not accessories as before.


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## burntoutbanger (2 Aug 2019)

One of the best bike shops local to me doesn't sell bikes at all just services, repairs and parts. His repair work is top notch and his prices on parts while not quite matching internet pricing are still pretty competitive. With him not selling bikes you never feel any pressure to upgrade or any guilt if taking in a bike bought elsewhere to be worked on.

I'm lucky in that there's another bike shop just further up that does sell bikes and has lots out on display, their work also seems to a high standard though they are also a little pricier.

The first shop is my shop of choice but I'm happy to use the second if the first is closed/on holiday.


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## screenman (2 Aug 2019)

Gravity Aided said:


> I know you all have a better standard of living than the States, but I can hardly imagine paying what you do for a bicycle. In many cases, the price you pay sounds more like the price I would pay, but in dollars, not pounds. For that, I would definitely prefer the shop A experience. We pass this way but once, no sense in going third class. It's more money, but what is money when you have to pay for that price with aggravation and possibly peril from a poorly built bicycle? When I ran photographic stores, we made but little on the cameras, and a lot on the lenses. When the point and shoot cameras came along, we had to make our whole money on the camera sale, because we sold the camera, not accessories as before.



There is not much between the £ and the $ now unfortunately, after carriage on the goods I import along with import duty I normally reckon what I pay in $ is the same in £ when it arrives in my office.


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## sheddy (2 Aug 2019)

Support your LBS !


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## Johnno260 (2 Aug 2019)

My LBS decided high street was too expensive and he didn’t enjoy selling, he closed shop and is a mobile bike mechanic now, he isn’t the cheapest, but he is honest and I trust him.

Like I said sometimes service and trust is worth the extra expense.


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## screenman (2 Aug 2019)

sheddy said:


> Support your LBS !



I think both shops are local shops.


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## vickster (2 Aug 2019)

screenman said:


> I think both shops are local shops.


I wouldn't say 70 miles away is very local although the OP might be out in the sticks


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## Phaeton (2 Aug 2019)

Gravity Aided said:


> I know you all have a better standard of living than the States,


Having spent a bit of time over there I would argue that we have a better standard of living, but what we do have is a culture of being screwed over on goods, price inflation as the item is UK bound, virtually all items cost more in the UK than is other countries (broad sweeping statement, but seems to be true)


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## Ming the Merciless (2 Aug 2019)

screenman said:


> There was a tale going around many years ago the Austin made more selling a headlight for a mini than they did selling a mini.



If it hit a pot hole it's the only bit of the car that survived...


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## Johnno260 (2 Aug 2019)

Phaeton said:


> Having spent a bit of time over there I would argue that we have a better standard of living, but what we do have is a culture of being screwed over on goods, price inflation as the item is UK bound, virtually all items cost more in the UK than is other countries (broad sweeping statement, but seems to be true)



Many products seem to have the same £ value as the $ example was Apple if it was $999 in the USA it was £999 here.

even though the £ was stronger than the $.


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## mustang1 (2 Aug 2019)

Actually, for anyone who said option A, including me, at what price difference would you choose option B...

£300 difference, £500, £more?


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## Slick (2 Aug 2019)

mustang1 said:


> Actually, for anyone who said option A, including me, at what price difference would you choose option B...
> 
> £300 difference, £500, £more?


I would rather do without than choose option B. I would always use B to get A at least closer in price.


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## screenman (2 Aug 2019)

vickster said:


> I wouldn't say 70 miles away is very local although the OP might be out in the sticks



Surely they are local to somebody though.


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## screenman (2 Aug 2019)

Phaeton said:


> Having spent a bit of time over there I would argue that we have a better standard of living, but what we do have is a culture of being screwed over on goods, price inflation as the item is UK bound, virtually all items cost more in the UK than is other countries (broad sweeping statement, but seems to be true)



I think we are all part to blame for that, for a kick off I think we have one of the highest level of statutory paid holidays, our wages are also up there compared with some others.


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## screenman (2 Aug 2019)

Johnno260 said:


> Many products seem to have the same £ value as the $ example was Apple if it was $999 in the USA it was £999 here.
> 
> even though the £ was stronger than the $.




Goes to show the cost of bringing things over here, hopefully it will not get worse from November on. I was though pointing out my import costs, not my retail price.


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## Gravity Aided (2 Aug 2019)

I see the dollar is stronger against the pound in the wake of the snap elections coming up.


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## vickster (2 Aug 2019)

screenman said:


> Surely they are local to somebody though.


Clearly but not the OP


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## iancity (2 Aug 2019)

Thanks for all the replies guys, lots to think about when I read the thread this morning although most seem in agreement with A.

As it turns out, went back to shop A, we had a little chat, and he agreed to knock 10% off the price (£100). A good gesture and well appreciated - they have probably kept me as a customer for life now 

Again, appreciate all those that took time to comment


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## Sharky (2 Aug 2019)

I've often wondered, when on this forum, we discuss a third party - a guy selling on ebay, a bike shop etc, if the person we are all discussing is also a member on cycle chat. It wouldn't surprise me if shop A was following the discussions and decided to give the discount after seeing the comments.


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## alicat (2 Aug 2019)

That's a fab result, well done @iancity.


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## SkipdiverJohn (3 Aug 2019)

screenman said:


> I think we are all part to blame for that, for a kick off I think we have one of the highest level of statutory paid holidays, our wages are also up there compared with some others.



Too much business regulatory nonsense over here plus the crippling cost of business rates. Sweep away all the unnecessary crap and doing business in the UK would be much cheaper and we as a country would be far more competitive internationally.
Remember when VAT in the UK used to be 8%? Now it's 20% - so everything has had an extra 12% price lumped on it for no benefit whatsoever in terms of product quality or specification.


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## screenman (3 Aug 2019)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Too much business regulatory nonsense over here plus the crippling cost of business rates. Sweep away all the unnecessary crap and doing business in the UK would be much cheaper and we as a country would be far more competitive internationally.
> Remember when VAT in the UK used to be 8%? Now it's 20% - so everything has had an extra 12% price lumped on it for no benefit whatsoever in terms of product quality or specification.



Take that money away and you would have very little public service.


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## Poacher (3 Aug 2019)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Too much business regulatory nonsense over here plus the crippling cost of business rates. Sweep away all the unnecessary crap and doing business in the UK would be much cheaper and we as a country would be far more competitive internationally.
> Remember when VAT in the UK used to be 8%? Now it's 20% - so everything has had an extra 12% price lumped on it for no benefit whatsoever in terms of product quality or specification.


Yes, I remember when VAT was 8%; it was just before Thatcher gained power on the promise of reducing income tax. What she didn't mention was that the reduction in the progressive tax would be balanced by nearly doubling the regressive tax to 15%.


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## screenman (3 Aug 2019)

Mind you when we come out and workers rights go out the window costs may come down.


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## SkipdiverJohn (3 Aug 2019)

screenman said:


> Take that money away and you would have very little public service.



We have very little public services now - but endless amounts of public money wasted on all sorts of worthless nonsense like green energy subsidies, HS2, public sector non-jobs, health service tourism, foreign aid and EU membership. If the government actually spent their money wisely instead of throwing half of it way, it would be quite possible to have relatively low taxation combined with decent public services. You just have to stop people abusing the system, and make sure that those who don't contribute anything, cant get anything for free.


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## screenman (3 Aug 2019)

So I suppose children, the elderly and this disabled are included in last bit.


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## Slick (3 Aug 2019)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> We have very little public services now - but endless amounts of public money wasted on all sorts of worthless nonsense like green energy subsidies, HS2, public sector non-jobs, health service tourism, foreign aid and EU membership. If the government actually spent their money wisely instead of throwing half of it way, it would be quite possible to have relatively low taxation combined with decent public services. You just have to stop people abusing the system, and make sure that those who don't contribute anything, cant get anything for free.


At least 3 arguably 4 on yor list are nett contributors.


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## Drago (3 Aug 2019)

HS2 would be fine if they just got on with it. Not a single shovel has been dug into the ground, yet over a billion quid has been spent. What backward tinpot banana republic can spend a billion and have nothing to show for it? Oh yeah, the UK.


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## Gravity Aided (3 Aug 2019)

Your rail system is already pretty advanced, compared to ours, because we have so many places with too few people living there. So in the States, you have High Speed from Washington to Boston (Acela) and a Midwest Corridor from Milwaukee to St. Louis that see a lot of trains, and the rest of the network is about 2 trains a day until Trump and his Amtrak scrapper Rick Anderson have their way. Political governance for Amtrak will keep Amtrak behind the times and behind the curve for as long as it continues. Because even though a Republican (Nixon) initiated Amtrak (because the private railroads didn't want passenger service without mail contracts) ((and were doing a p*ss poor job of running railroad passenger service, anyway)), every time a Republican administration gets in, Amtrak winds up on the block, in some way shape or form. Your passenger service, although lacking proper air conditioning, is a fine service light years ahead of ours, just as it stands. Of course, Great Britain is about the size of the American States of Illinois, Wisconsin, and Iowa. But the only reason we have decent rail service in the Midwest is because the states of Illinois and Wisconsin themselves fund much of it.


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## Gravity Aided (3 Aug 2019)

Of course, then there are the Pacers, for better or worse.


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## Slick (3 Aug 2019)

Gravity Aided said:


> Of course, then there are the Pacers, for better or worse.


What are the Pacers?


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## SkipdiverJohn (3 Aug 2019)

Drago said:


> HS2 would be fine if they just got on with it. Not a single shovel has been dug into the ground, yet over a billion quid has been spent. What backward tinpot banana republic can spend a billion and have nothing to show for it? Oh yeah, the UK.



Some idiot who enjoys spending other people's money has got too hung up on very high speed capability, and this is primarily why HS2 is so mind-blowingly expensive. The UK is a small country, we don't even need ultra high speed trains as a few minutes time saving is neither here nor there. What we do have is overcrowding, lack of capacity, and a lack of punctuality and reliability. The solution to those problems is not HS2 in it's current form; it's sorting out all the bottlenecks in the system, ensuring enough rolling stock availability, and maintaining the track & signals so things aren't constantly failing and causing delays.


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## alicat (4 Aug 2019)

Slick said:


> What are the Pacers?



Trains that have a bus body and seating and have an unpleasant ride and smell. You'll know if you've been on one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacer_(train)


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## Slick (4 Aug 2019)

alicat said:


> Trains that have a bus body and seating and have an unpleasant ride and smell. You'll know if you've been on one.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacer_(train)


Ah, I assumed it was an American thing which is why I asked. Scotrail still operates some old trains on shorter routes at busier times, I'll need to check next time to see if its a Pacer or not.


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## Gravity Aided (4 Aug 2019)

Slick said:


> What are the Pacers?


Lleyland bus grafted to a flatcar.


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## Gravity Aided (4 Aug 2019)

Slick said:


> Ah, I assumed it was an American thing which is why I asked. Scotrail still operates some old trains on shorter routes at busier times, I'll need to check next time to see if its a Pacer or not.


Last time I heard, Pacers were still in the north and west of England. Last time I saw some Scotrail video, it was mostly newer things, Super Sprinters, AT200, HST, 334,380,318, 320, 170. But a lot of my info might be old,
I was planning to take a trip to Chicago later in the year, will post when it happens.


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## alicat (4 Aug 2019)

I went on one from Shrewsbury to Telford on a Transport for Wales train a few weeks ago. Not nice (in a first world problem kind of way, of course).


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## Gravity Aided (4 Aug 2019)

Folk tell me they're a bit shakey.


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## alicat (4 Aug 2019)

I didn't know their name until this thread; however I knew instantly what you must mean @Gravity Aided. Here is a pic of the inside of one. I find them cramped and they seem to smell of something like drycleaning fluid. I don't know if it is that my mind is confused because I seem to be on a bus but it's meant to be a train.


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## steveindenmark (6 Aug 2019)

"Issues and lies"

I dont even know why you are asking


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