# Improving Swimming Technique



## xxmimixx (28 Nov 2011)

Well, Im going to do more swimming and less running due to injury  so might as well take this chance to improve my swimming.
I know I should, and have had it in my mind for a while, take some 121 sessions but have not got around to yet, and now that Christmas is approaching I need to spend on others.
So. Im swimming in a 18m pool. Im not pushing off the edges or Ill get to the other end in 2 strokes , and am doing 400m in 10m (not the fastest but at least I can do it all on front crawl which I thought myself only a couple of months ago!). I know I can improve on that, but Im not looking forward to do any open waters so the time will be as realistic as it can on race day.

How many strokes do you take before taking a breath in?
How can Im improve my efficiency?
Does efficiency means: cover more distance in less strokes?
Im currently everaging 7 strokes to 18m lenght.
Is 1 one arm 1 stroke or a set 1 stroke, if you know what I mean?

Thanks


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## 007fair (28 Nov 2011)

I'm in the same boat as you this winter  
*How many strokes do you take before taking a breath in?*
I tried holding my breath for longer an breathing every 4 strokes but this lasts for only 2 lengths (25M) or so Then I have to breath every 2 strokes and sometimes 3 so I can then breath on the other side for a change 
_*How can Im improve my efficiency?*_
I am no expert -- but I was told Exercise the shoulders and core muscles. Keep your middle down and heels up so you are a flat on the water as possible. Then swim relaxed and rythmic
_*Does efficiency means: cover more distance in less strokes?*_
Yes But very slow strokes yet fast pace takes alot of shoulder strength You will need to find your own pace
_*Im currently everaging 7 strokes to 18m lenght.*_
This sounds very good on 25m I can do under 20 but after a 4 lengths I think I am more like 25 / 26 I have room for improvment
_*Is 1 stroke or a set 1 stroke, if you know what I mean?*_
1 stroke is 1 stroke. So breath on your right, right arm down, left arm down breath to your right again ..is every 2 strokes. If your strokes are fast then this is too often I found slowing the strokes down made this the ideal frequency for me (a novice and not very good!)


... From an 18 m pool to open water will be daunting 
I know I can take an extra breath at the end of each 25 m length which will not be possible in open water

I am not thinking about it now 6 months to go yet !


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## Flying_Monkey (28 Nov 2011)

xxmimixx said:


> Well, Im going to do more swimming and less running due to injury  so might as well take this chance to improve my swimming.
> I know I should, and have had it in my mind for a while, take some 121 sessions but have not got around to yet, and now that Christmas is approaching I need to spend on others.


 
Absolutely essential, but I am also going to tell you that you have to get coaching if you are going to make real improvements.



> So. Im swimming in a 18m pool. Im not pushing off the edges or Ill get to the other end in 2 strokes ,


 
You really need to find a longer pool to swim in. 25m minimum.



> and am doing 400m in 10m (not the fastest but at least I can do it all on front crawl which I thought myself only a couple of months ago!). I know I can improve on that, but Im not looking forward to do any open waters so the time will be as realistic as it can on race day.


 
I really wouldn't worry about time until you have resolved your technique issues.



> How many strokes do you take before taking a breath in?


 
3 - almost always. You should never be taking even numbers, as this means you are only breathing on one side. You should ideally be taking breaths on alternate sides.



> How can Im improve my efficiency?


 
Slow down. Stretch out as much as you can on every stroke. Keep your face looking right down not forward until you roll to breathe. Roll form side to side with each stroke much more than you think you should. You will also need to look at how your hands are moving through the water. And then you will have to examine what your legs are doing. You need training because you have to have someone else to see what you are doing now and what needs to be improved. You cannot do this on your own. You can only practice what the person observing you has told you to improve.



> Does efficiency means: cover more distance in less strokes?


 
Yes, but different people also swim differently. More or less emphasis on arms and legs etc.


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## Flying_Monkey (28 Nov 2011)

On breathing: you should never be 'holding your breath'. The ideal situation is that you fill your lungs completely on the breath, and then you breathe out continuously as you do your next three strokes, so that when you come to the third stroke and roll to breathe again, your lungs will be as empty as they can be. And so on. This works irrespective of how fast you are swimming, because you just breathe out quicker or slower. Getting this right is one of the keys to efficient swimming.


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## fimm (28 Nov 2011)

I'll second what Flying Monkey has said.

Have a look at the SwimSmooth site - if you can't get coaching, you might consider their DVD and associated swim course. (Disclaimer: I have not used it myself, but it gets lots of good feedback on the triathlon forums).

I will disagree with FM on one thing - I swim in a 25 _yard_ pool, and my b/f coaches a tri club who use a 20 metre pool, so 18 metres isn't necessarily the end of the world, especially if you're going to do a lot of drills (which you should, at this point).

Do try and learn to breathe bilaterally (i.e. both sides) - I made myself learn almost as soon as I started learning crawl, and I'm very glad I did. I usually breathe every 3 strokes (i.e. alternately to the right and to the left) except if I'm tired or trying to go too fast, when my stroke deteriorates to every second stroke on my preferred side - I find that trying to stick at a pace I can breathe bilaterally is a good discipline for not trying to go too fast.


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## 007fair (28 Nov 2011)

I bow to more more knowledgable people like FM But of course my novice may at least give you a marker For 20 or 30 lengths I couldn't stick to 3 stroke breathing Just couldn't


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## gambatte (28 Nov 2011)

400m 10mins. Sounds good to me.
I'm about 10:15 I took it steady at my 1st aquathon last week and got 10:58
There were fast, medium and slow lanes. I was in the slow (obviously). But there were guys in the same lane who do 7min for 400m!


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## Flying_Monkey (28 Nov 2011)

007fair said:


> I bow to more more knowledgable people like FM But of course my novice may at least give you a marker For 20 or 30 lengths I couldn't stick to 3 stroke breathing Just couldn't


 
I am not much more than a novice (only started swimming in February this year). But the one thing I made sure I got right from the start was technique - and I could only do that because I was trained. Everyone needs training if they want to get their technique right. In the end that's the only answer if you feel you are struggling. That swimsmooth site and DVD will help though. It at least helps you visualize what you should be doing.


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## gambatte (28 Nov 2011)

Swimsmooths good as is total immersion. Theres loads of vids on youtube too.
IME though, if you can, get along to a tri clubs training sessions. It'll get you swimming hard for an hour, with lots of variety of drills and intensity. If someone had said three months ago "right, 50m. You can only use your arms as you'll be dragging someone holding onto your ankles" .....


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## zizou (28 Nov 2011)

Breathing to the one side is not a problem and doing so isn't the fault of bad technique. Most elite swimmers have a favoured side and will breath there. Do what is most comfortable and what feels most efficient for you. Doing some training bilaterally (or just focusing on your 'bad' side) is good however so if you need to breath there (to see your position in relation to who you are racing, or if in open water avoiding waves or the sun) then you can do it competently.

How many strokes to take between breathes varies and is so reliant on the distance being swum, the size of the pool and the fitness and lung capacity of the swimmer.


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## xxmimixx (29 Nov 2011)

Hi 007 fair, thanks for your reply, I dont plan to do many open water (mainly due to a fear of cold water ) but I am comfortable in water (qualified as Padi rescue diver about 10 yeras ago).
Good luck with your training and do keep posting about how you are getting on .



Flying_Monkey said:


> You really need to find a longer pool to swim in. 25m minimum.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
hi FM, unfortunately this is the size pool of the gym where Im a member but I do go try and get to a 25m pool once a month and Im planning to go to a 50m pool next week! It's a bit far from me but really want to try a longer pool. I think there are a few 100m pools in the country but that is way too far! 

At the moment I found a nice rythm by taking a breath every other stroke, then 4 stokes, breath, 2 strokes breath, 4 strokes breath. But like you said, I have also recently noticed that looking down does make a BIG difference. Before I had my head underwater but slightly tilted forward to look at the lane tiles pattern underwater, to give me a sense of direction. Now I look directly down and can feel my body gliding better, as it bring my legs higher which propels me further.
Then after my hands enter the water, I use the hands as a rake to drag the water beneath me and push myself further.
At the moment Im doing 3x 400m sets mainly because I get bored after that, and want to spend some time in the sauna / jacuzzi as well  < I do what I call my water circuit!

I tried taking a breath every 3rd stroke but when I 'roll' on the off side to breath, I loose my rythm and streamline. Im not sure if I should persevere until I get it right or as zizou said it may not be detrimental to my technique once I get everything else right.

Hi Gambette, I have looked at Tri clubs (there are none in my 'local' area) and the one which I could do meet up so late 7.30 that it conflicts with my other stuff. Id rather meet 5.30 / 6.00 / 6.30 to go straight after work but cant hang around from work to the club session for 2hrs + 

Hi Fimm, and all who had paid coaching. How many lessons do you need does it take, are needed to improve technique?

Cheers everybody


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## Flying_Monkey (29 Nov 2011)

xxmimixx said:


> Hi 007 fair, thanks for your reply, I dont plan to do many open water (mainly due to a fear of cold water )
> 
> At the moment I found a nice rythm by taking a breath every other stroke, then 4 stokes, breath, 2 strokes breath, 4 strokes breath.


 
While I don't disagree with Zizou that some people don't get on with three strokes and breathing on alternate sides, what you're doing is never going to be efficient because you are completely messing with your breathing if you are constantly changing how many strokes you take between breaths.It is going to be counterproductive.

On the rolling, you should be rolling with every stroke anyway, whether you are going to breathe or not. My coach told me that even a lot of really strong swimmers don't roll enough and still have this idea that rolling decreases their forward efficiency when actually the opposite is true.

And you can't just try something once and give up. Anything you start doing to improve your technique will mess up what feels natural to you. It takes time to incorporate each change, and for a couple of sessions, you may even feel you are regressing. But you have to stick with the changes. That is the point of training!

Mind you, you also first need to know that you are actually making the right changes and doing them correctly, which is why you need someone else to look at how you are swimming. I had just a half hour session with my coach once a week for the first few months and then less frequently as we went on. I was lucky in that since I had never really swum before, I had few ingrained bad habits. This made for fast improvements. See here: http://tritillicry.wordpress.com/2011/02/23/last-week/ and read on...


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## Ghost Donkey (29 Nov 2011)

I'll add my two pence worth.

How many strokes do you take before taking a breath in?
Whatever allows you to swim and breathe without drowning is my honest answer. I try and do three in the pool and jump between three and two. Open water I tend to breath every two strokes and change sides frequently so I can do both. You should try and get an open water session in if possible as you can't see where you're going in a lake or river and swimming in a straight line needs a little practice.

How can I improve my efficiency?
Coaching. Fitness. You've made good improvement but I cannot recommend swimming and tri clubs enough. I started at a masters swim club very daunted about going. They were great and really helped. Some people there encouraged me to go to the tri club also. Wish I'd have gone sooner. Swimming has gone from being my weakest of the three to not worrying me as long as I keep up the training. Technique work is essential but the hard swim sessions are also important to improvement.

Does efficiency means: cover more distance in less strokes?
Yes but as long as you are comfortable and not expending more energy. It comes with time.

I'll also add it never gets easier, you just swim faster and further and usually learn to love it if you don't already.


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## xxmimixx (29 Nov 2011)

Thanks FM I understand and agree with you, much apprecciated your feedback. If the 'right' and best way for 'me' to improve is to do bilateral breathing then that's what I will do. I have tried so many different things and I know what you mean that by chaning it feels like regressing but I know that it will spin around the other way in no time! A bit like swimming v e r y slowly in order to manage more lenghts in front crowl etc etc. With regards to the 121's I dont think I can really treat myself to weekly x 3 months sessions! But will def give it a go as soon as my cashflow improves 

Hi Ghost Donkey, thanks for your reply. I do love being in water, it feels so natural and liberating, relaxing. Just dont like cold water!


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## Flying_Monkey (29 Nov 2011)

xxmimixx said:


> Hi 007 fair, thanks for your reply, I dont plan to do many open water (mainly due to a fear of cold water )
> 
> At the moment I found a nice rythm by taking a breath every other stroke, then 4 stokes, breath, 2 strokes breath, 4 strokes breath.


 
While I don't disagree with Zizou that some people don't get on with three strokes and breathing on alternate sides, what you're doing is never going to be efficient because you are completely messing with your breathing if you are constantly changing how many strokes you take between breaths.It is going to be counterproductive.

On the rolling, you should be rolling with every stroke anyway, whether you are going to breathe or not. My coach told me that even a lot of really strong swimmers don't roll enough and still have this idea that rolling decreases their forward efficiency when actually the opposite is true.

And you can't just try something once and give up. Anything you start doing to improve your technique will mess up what feels natural to you. It takes time to incorporate each change, and for a couple of sessions, you may even feel you are regressing. But you have to stick with the changes. That is the point of training!

Mind you, you also first need to know that you are actually making the right changes and doing them correctly, which is why you need someone else to look at how you are swimming. I had just a half hour session with my coach once a week for the first few months and then less frequently as we went on. I was lucky in that since I had never really swum before, I had few ingrained bad habits. This made for fast improvements. See here: http://tritillicry.wordpress.com/2011/02/23/last-week/ and read on...


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## zizou (29 Nov 2011)

Flying_Monkey said:


> While I don't disagree with Zizou that some people don't get on with three strokes and breathing on alternate sides, what you're doing is never going to be efficient because you are completely messing with your breathing if you are constantly changing how many strokes you take between breaths.It is going to be counterproductive.


 
Irregular breathing is a common training exercise to improve lung capacity. For a longer distance swim, particularly when fatiqued then i dont think 4-2-4 will be easy to maintain (and it would likely be detrimental to performance doing so) and it would drop to every 2nd stroke, but otherwise if that is what xxmimixx feels comfortable doing when training then i dont see a problem. Different people experience oxygen debt in different ways and if someone feels good going 4-2-4 then they should stick to that.


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## gambatte (29 Nov 2011)

What about.
100m(?) swim with right arm extended, stroke only with left arm, breath on left side
100m(?) swim with left arm extended, stroke with right arm only, breath on right side
100m, normal stroke, alternate breathing each side every 3rd stroke?
1st 2 get used to breathing on a particular side, 3rd brings it together?


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## Flying_Monkey (29 Nov 2011)

zizou said:


> Irregular breathing is a common training exercise to improve lung capacity. For a longer distance swim, particularly when fatiqued then i dont think 4-2-4 will be easy to maintain (and it would likely be detrimental to performance doing so) and it would drop to every 2nd stroke, but otherwise if that is what xxmimixx feels comfortable doing when training then i dont see a problem. Different people experience oxygen debt in different ways and if someone feels good going 4-2-4 then they should stick to that.


 
The problem is, Zizou, that anyone can easily feel completely comfortable doing something that is really inefficient and not as good as one could be. If the aim is just to be a leisure swimmer then there's no problem. But if someone wants to improve and compete, they need to have someone else look at what they are doing and why. That's why we all need coaching. I am not expecting anyone to change everything based on the specific advice that I or you or anyone else offers here (although I did drills like gambatte when I was taught how to breathe properly), but what they should be doing, if they really want to improve, is get real world help. There really is no substitute.


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## fimm (29 Nov 2011)

Very much agree with Flying Monkey.

WRT cost, I've had coaching with my triathlon club, and through a Masters swim set (though this one was more like an "advanced adult improvers" set in the slower lane: it was run by a man who is also a member of our triathlon club. Some Masters clubs are more aimed at people who have swum since childhood and assume you can do fly and stuff...). The Masters swim was in the Council pool so I didn't pay anything over the membership I was paying anyway.

I agree that elite swimmers often breathe one sided _when they are racing_. However they will undoubtedly breathe on both sides while training. And they're elites and we're not. In open water, it can be an advantage to be able to breathe either side, as you can then avoid the sun in your eyes, or chop coming in on one side, for example.

(I've done sets along the lines of "first length breathe every 2nd stroke, second length breathe every 3rd..." up to breathing every 7th stroke on the 6th length! I really can't remember what the coaching point is - something non-intuitive, IIRC. It made sense at the time.)


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## zizou (29 Nov 2011)

Flying_Monkey said:


> The problem is, Zizou, that anyone can easily feel completely comfortable doing something that is really inefficient and not as good as one could be. If the aim is just to be a leisure swimmer then there's no problem. But if someone wants to improve and compete, they need to have someone else look at what they are doing and why. That's why we all need coaching. I am not expecting anyone to change everything based on the specific advice that I or you or anyone else offers here (although I did drills like gambatte when I was taught how to breathe properly), but what they should be doing, if they really want to improve, is get real world help. There really is no substitute.


 
I agree with what you are saying about coaching just disagree with the point made about breathing bilaterally as opposed to on the one side. Someone can have poor, inefficient technique breathing every 3rd stroke just the same as someone else may have good, efficient technique breathing every 2 (and vice versa). Breathing when needed and making sure you get the technique around that sorted is more important than whether it is every 2, 3 or 4.


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## zizou (29 Nov 2011)

fimm said:


> I agree that elite swimmers often breathe one sided _when they are racing_. However they will undoubtedly breathe on both sides while training. And they're elites and we're not. In open water, it can be an advantage to be able to breathe either side, as you can then avoid the sun in your eyes, or chop coming in on one side, for example.
> 
> (I've done sets along the lines of "first length breathe every 2nd stroke, second length breathe every 3rd..." up to breathing every 7th stroke on the 6th length! I really can't remember what the coaching point is - something non-intuitive, IIRC. It made sense at the time.)


 
Like i said in my first post - doing some training bilaterally is good practice, i'm not denying there is a training benefit from being able to do it, i'm just saying there is no competitive or efficiency benefit in choosing one or the other. Although often the drill will be breathing and looking at the same side of the pool, rather than changing frequency of breathing.

The session you mention would be to improve aerobic conditioning and also to make sure your stroke doesnt suffer when you really need some air. In a race i guess the frequency would tend to be the other way about maybe that is the non-intuitive part?


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## Arsen Gere (29 Nov 2011)

Have a look at Sun Yang for inspiration. See youtube and search for "Sun Yang 1500m Shanghai". He is a smooths swimmer. If you look at the whole 14 mins for 1500m he hardly looks like he is trying, his legs hardly move his arms are so slow.

Then look at Laure Manaudou. She's a bit of a swinger, arms that is. As opposed to being a front quadrant swimmer like Yang and Thorpe. Loads of good slow mo vids on Thorpe too.

Yang is 6 foot 6 and does 28 strokes per length. Manaudou is 5' 11' does around 45 over the same 50m. Keri-Anne Payne the 10k swimmer does a faster stroke rate.

These are extremes. The point being you need to find what works best for you and no one here can tell you what's best.

IMHO it is no coincidence that there are patterns to cadence in human efficieny, pedalling at 95 rpm, Gebresalasie runs at around 185 steps/min or 93 rpm and so on. So a faster cadence is probably better for triathlon and in particular choppy water if you are not a giant.

I struggle with the technicalities of swimming more than the bike or running and I have been tracking my performance by doing a 400m TT in a 25 and 50m pool for the past couple of years as a benchmark.

There is a definite correlation between distance swam and 400m time, my fastest 100m was 1:26 at cadence of 0.7 sec/stroke i.e. hand entering water. So cadence is correlated too. 
I use a finis tempo trainer to get this right. At a s/r of 0.95 I can't beat 1.33.

IMHO the swim smooth stuff can only take you so far in impoving your efficiency, then like cycling and running you need to look at volume, strength and cadence.


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## Arsen Gere (29 Nov 2011)

BTW watch Sun Yang breath. He sometimes breathes on EVERY stroke before a turn.


View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-ZMbiem-V8


View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6GmflekO_g


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## gambatte (29 Nov 2011)

ok, positive post from me. longest I've swum in one go is 400m. So I'm happy with tonight.
warmed up with various drills. The stuff I suggested earlier, catchup drills with and without pullbuoy.
Then I hit my main part of the session
I wanted to do 8x100m with 15-30s break between sets (gave myself a band as the pools busy) I wanted 8 as it takes me over the 750m sprint distance.
I actually felt good
Ended up doing 15 x 100m
I guess thats olympic distance.... just got to get rid of the rests


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## Arsen Gere (29 Nov 2011)

Gambatte it sounds like you are enjoying yourself. But take care, if you increase the load or volume by more than say 10% a week you risk injury. Shoulders are a real problem for swimmers. A sore shoulder can stop you doing the bike and runs too.
One problem I've had recently is that longer distance swims made my ankles ache when running but not riding the bike. I upped the distance too fast.


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## gambatte (29 Nov 2011)

Ta, but its a couple of days since my last coached session - and I get pushed a lot harder in there. I took it steady, paced myself.
I've got a bit of experience with upping the volume too much - did it running when I started. That'll probably be me done till the weekend.

I've embraced the term 'adaptation'

I always felt guilty about 'rest days' till someone pointed out that training is about stressing your body then allowing it to repair and adapt. Adapting is part of training. So now I don't have rest days. I have 'adaptation days'


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## loops (29 Nov 2011)

I did my first two widths freestyle to make 5om then needed a good minute to recover, however last week could only do one so minor improvement. Hoping some swimming improvers lessons this wiil get me bit further and am feeling very glad that the tri season is not imminent!!


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## Arsen Gere (30 Nov 2011)

Loops, I would not worry how long it takes you to recover. Recovery takes care of itself as you get fitter and adapt to swimming. If I were you I'd concentrate on developing efficency As you repeat your efforts, the number of reps increase. Then by dropping the intensity a bit you can join up 50's to 100's and then 400's. Before you know it you'l be doing 1500m and a mile.
It does not matter how good a runner or cyclist you are swimming is different and requires its own adaptation based around good technique. So keep at it!


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## xxmimixx (30 Nov 2011)

thanks for all the replies I'll keep doing what I am doing for now (so that by switching I dont get to pick up bad habits) but with the view to get some coachin within the next few weeks. 
Arsen thanks for sharing that video of Sun Yang, it's incredible how smoothly he swims, it even looks like he doesnt move his fit for a second or so every other kick, then when that official rings the bell to alert him of the last 100m his feet make foam like a powerboat!!!  He's amazing!

I might put the Finis Tempo Trainer in my Christmas wish list. What about pull buoys and hand paddles/webbed gloves, are they good training tools and worth getting/using?


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## gambatte (30 Nov 2011)

Pullbuoy and float, I've used since I started. Fins I'm not sure about, but its awkward being allowed to use them round here.
Paddles I've been advised its too soon for me. I've been told they're good, but I won't need them for another 6 months. They can have negative effects, too much strain on your shoulder too soon.


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## zizou (30 Nov 2011)

pull buoys and floats are useful. Hand paddles are a bit more advanced but good once at a certain level. Tempo trainers have their advocates... the people i know who are/were most enthusiastic about their benefits were breast strokers though. So all these things pretty useful to varying degrees.

Swim fins on the other hand are IME counter productive for training for finless swimming (obviously good for scuba or body boarding and things like that!). I sometimes did sessions with them and never felt any benefit, i just felt so much slower after taking them off. On top of that the proper method of kicking with fins is different than without - if you use a similar method then you will be more prone to cramping.


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## gambatte (30 Nov 2011)

I've seen advocates of fins especially for those who've a history of running? I believe the theory was that due to running your ankles get stronger, less prone to twisting. The counter side of this being that because the ankle is strengthened, it's more difficult to point your toes in a flipper like position.
The use of fins can help to make/train the feet to behave in the right way? Also drills that require some propulsion in the water, but not supplied by the upper torso (balance drills) can be problematic if you've a weak kick and your legs keep sinking?


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## jay clock (30 Nov 2011)

having been doing triathlons for 5 years, I have finally forced myself to do alternate side breathing. If you are not a great swimmer, I would absolutely put this high on the agenda to start early, or one side only will become very heavily ingrained and give you an unbalanced stroke.

Secondly, get technique right well before worrying about speed or endurance.

Thirdly you may be a person like me who loves open water swimming and is much better in it. The buoyancy of a wetsuit is a massive benefit.

Lastly, don't worry too much about actual speed. Out of 10 people in my club doing Ironman this summer I was the *fastest* at 1:20 (8m25 per 400). Several of the others beat me overall, or more than made up the swim deficit on either the bike or the run. Particularly the run!


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## Arsen Gere (30 Nov 2011)

On the paddles thing, some public pools don't allow them or fins or snorkels. You can usually get away with soft webbed gloves.
However if it is improving strength by loading your arms you want ( ooh those shoulders) just wear some very bagy knee length shorts. It adds about 10 sec per 25m for me.

On floats, try using the leg off an old pair of tights and tie the ends together to make a loop. Put the float between your calves and put the doubled over loop over your ankles so you can't kick. It gives you a feel for having your body horizontal rather than dragging your legs, isolates your arms and helps you gauge shoulder rotation. If you rotate too far you end up on your back.

When you get this right, try moving the float up to your thighs, then remove the float all together. I can't do the last bit.


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## fimm (30 Nov 2011)

gambatte said:


> I've seen advocates of fins especially for those who've a history of running? I believe the theory was that due to running your ankles get stronger, less prone to twisting. The counter side of this being that because the ankle is strengthened, it's more difficult to point your toes in a flipper like position.
> The use of fins can help to make/train the feet to behave in the right way? Also drills that require some propulsion in the water, but not supplied by the upper torso (balance drills) can be problematic if you've a weak kick and your legs keep sinking?



I agree with all of this - there are drills that it is much harder to really do if your kick is poor.
Unfortunately you're often not allowed to use fins in a public session in case you hit someone else with them. Another reason for joining a club of some kind! (Some may even have fins you can borrow.) Get a pull buoy first.


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## fimm (30 Nov 2011)

Arsen Gere said:


> On floats, try using the leg off an old pair of tights ...


... or an old inner tube, with the valve removed and the ends knotted together at that point...


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## zizou (30 Nov 2011)

It wasn't a stretching problem, the fins would be used after an hour or so. Cramps would be the calf muscle but also the instep and there really isn't much to do about that.

Getting the technique right can be complicated with swimming so a potential shortcut that a bit of equipment might provide is tempting, i just dont think it is an effective use of time. Training with fins will still give cardio benefits etc but the biggest difference it will make to you swimming is make you better at swimming with fins. If someone needs more ankle flexibility for swimming then doing specific exercises for that (out of the pool) is more effective. Not difficult exercises either 5 minutes a day while watching the TV would do it...if only all training could be like that.

I should add when i was a kid i looked forward to the sessions with the fins because they were alot of fun and too often the fun side of training is overlooked!


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## Arsen Gere (30 Nov 2011)

Gambatte, if your legs sink try moving to a front quadrant stroke, I did this for a bit and it worked for me.
If you do a catchup so most of the weight of your arms is in front of your chest, the air in your lungs acts like a pivot and you can lift your legs. The float exercise above also helps you get a feel for where your legs could be.
I dropped this for competitions and moved back to swinging but still go back to it once a week to test my position.

On the stretching, I read paper that demonstrated stretching post exercise improved performance overall. Also swimming tends to tighten the calves. I had a series of calf injuries when running which I cured simply by stretching. Touching my toes helped the most.

One thing that makes you more injury prone is to switch stretching routines around a race. I see loads of people before a race stretching and I am tempted to try it, but I never do it. If you stretch before exercising, continue to do it. If you don't, don't start on race day.


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## zizou (30 Nov 2011)

Arsen Gere said:


> I dropped this for competitions and moved back to swinging but still go back to it once a week to test my position.
> 
> On the stretching, I read paper that demonstrated stretching post exercise improved performance overall. Also swimming tends to tighten the calves. I had a series of calf injuries when running which I cured simply by stretching. Touching my toes helped the most.


 
I definitely feel a difference if i dont stretch after exercise. I wasn't doing my full routine for a while last year and after a few weeks was finding i couldn't get on my bike from the right side because i couldnt raise my leg high enough


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## gambatte (30 Nov 2011)

Can't use paddles or floats near me, pullbuoys and floats only.
With the 'swim fit' initiative I believe more pools may be coming round to the idea of sessions where Joe public can use them.
I know our local pool (run by DCLeisure) is currently looking to run a swim fit session where half the pool will be adult lane swimming, the other half 'swim fit', allowing the use of paddles and flippers. I heard this was a company wide move.


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## xxmimixx (3 Dec 2011)

Well whilst browsing around my local Sweatshop I noticed a leaflet about Triathlon training in the local David Lloyd. Today was the first session and went along for a free taster. We did a lot of drills with floaties, first kicking, then moving one arm only, then the other etc.
The instructor already picked up on the fact that I was not drawing the arm back enough and I also noticed that when I swim (front crawl) I extend my arm forward, in the water and then drag under me. Instead today by drawing my arm all the way back (like if you are doing archery) I automatically found that my arm does not go underneath me but very close to the surface, which as a result seemed to me to make me glide better.
Am I making sense?

Anyway the DL is doing this Triathlon training every Saturday from 2 to 5.30. (2 to 3 bike, 3.15-4.15 bike, 4.30-5.30 swim) I might join them on the bike if but am mainly going for the swimming coaching. I think I benefited from it and will continue.


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## 007fair (5 Dec 2011)

xxmimixx said:


> Well whilst browsing around my local Sweatshop I noticed a leaflet about Triathlon training in the local David Lloyd. Today was the first session and went along for a free taster. We did a lot of drills with floaties, first kicking, then moving one arm only, then the other etc.
> The instructor already picked up on the fact that I was not drawing the arm back enough and I also noticed that when I swim (front crawl) I extend my arm forward, in the water and then drag under me. *Instead today by drawing my arm all the way back (like if you are doing archery) I automatically found that my arm does not go underneath me but very close to the surface, which as a result seemed to me to make me glide better.*
> *Am I making sense?*
> 
> Anyway the DL is doing this Triathlon training every Saturday from 2 to 5.30. (2 to 3 bike, 3.15-4.15 bike, 4.30-5.30 swim) I might join them on the bike if but am mainly going for the swimming coaching. I think I benefited from it and will continue.


Makes sense to me Something else I need to try out now


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## Flying_Monkey (7 Dec 2011)

There are endless arguments about stroke among swimming coaches. I have friends who've been trained by triathlon coaches who do this 'archery style' stroke. My swimming coach just laughed when I pointed this out. She favours the long stretch - but not in the water, above the water, that much most people agree on. And okay, different strokes can work for different purposes and it depends very much on the distance you are swimming. And on your physique and style (although both of these will change with training and practice anyway).


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## xxmimixx (7 Dec 2011)

Well I went swimming today and tried to practice on this new 'archery' style. I must say I find it much easier on one side but was really struggling to do it on my left, sometime I must have looked really odd and felt as I was learning to swim again. However, looking at my stats, as my previous swims averaged a constant 7 strokes per lap and an efficiency of about 50% , today I achieved 6 strokes and efficiency of 65%, I believe this is due in the change of technique, however again if I want to keep at this style I need to perfection my left side!


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## loops (9 Dec 2011)

Arsen Gere said:


> Loops, I would not worry how long it takes you to recover. Recovery takes care of itself as you get fitter and adapt to swimming. If I were you I'd concentrate on developing efficency As you repeat your efforts, the number of reps increase. Then by dropping the intensity a bit you can join up 50's to 100's and then 400's. Before you know it you'l be doing 1500m and a mile.
> It does not matter how good a runner or cyclist you are swimming is different and requires its own adaptation based around good technique. So keep at it!


hey! thanks for encouragement..everso slightly improving in terms of less recovery needed  going to increase pool attendance this week and see if can make those 50s a 75 or a 100


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## BigonaBianchi (9 Dec 2011)

Interesting...I will try the archery thing soon. I swam my first 100 lengths (33m pool) day before yesterday, the first one since I was at school...however i was alternating crawl/breaststroke. I tend to reach as far forward as I can on the crawl and then push the water behind me under my body...I have no idea how it looks above water...messy i suspect, especially as I breath every stroke and only to my right.


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## zizou (10 Dec 2011)

i've never heard of an archery stroke - when you say drawing your arm all the way back do you mean to the extent that you are straightening it before leaving the water?


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## bathtub (10 Dec 2011)

There is loads of useful information on the swimsmooth website www.swimsmooth.com

I would also reccommend downloading the free "Mr Smooth" application which gives you an animated swimmer with an "ideal freestyle stroke". I find this really helpful using this to visualise my stroke when i swim both solo and at coached club sessions.


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## xxmimixx (10 Dec 2011)

BigonaBianchi said:


> Interesting...I will try the archery thing soon. I swam my first 100 lengths (33m pool) day before yesterday, the first one since I was at school...however i was alternating crawl/breaststroke. I tend to reach as far forward as I can on the crawl and then push the water behind me under my body...I have no idea how it looks above water...messy i suspect, especially as I breath every stroke and only to my right.


 
Hi BB, which pool did you go to? I tried a 33m pool and my 'local' one was Canterbury. Would like to try a 50m but is either Crawley or Crystal Palace, a fair distance 



zizou said:


> i've never heard of an archery stroke - when you say drawing your arm all the way back do you mean to the extent that you are straightening it before leaving the water?


 
once your arm is fully stretched in front of you, instead of drawing it below you, you draw it towards you as you roll, more closer to the surface (rather than going right underneath you) - hope is clearer!



bathtub said:


> There is loads of useful information on the swimsmooth website www.swimsmooth.com
> 
> I would also reccommend downloading the free "Mr Smooth" application which gives you an animated swimmer with an "ideal freestyle stroke". I find this really helpful using this to visualise my stroke when i swim both solo and at coached club sessions.


 
Yes I downloaded this and keep looking at him, it's quite a good tool and want to find a way to get myself 'videod' as I d like to see what I look like when I swim!

Anyways I've been to my coached (group) swimming session again today and feel much better. I m getting my head around the rolling on both sides whilst keeping my head looking down, which was hard at the beginning. Then breathing on both sides which again as Im more getting used to it I can totally see the benefit. The drills are great, I realized that I have very good natural kicking technique as when I was doing the drill with a float and just kicking with my feet I was overtaking quite a few people lol, I think being tall with big feet might help!
All in all it was a good decision to do this and would highly recommend anyone who is dedicated about improving technique to not try doing it alone. I thought I was doing it right and I wasnt, and if I had carried on I would have picked up bad habits that would have been hard to give up.
The first few swims will be like learning to swim again, but is a bit of mind over matter, if you are focused and forget about the speed the technique will slowly work its way into you!
Cant wait to do 16 lengths at a 25m pool again to check my timings! 
Thank you all for motivating me to take things further!


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## BigonaBianchi (11 Dec 2011)

> Hi BB, which pool did you go to? I tried a 33m pool and my 'local' one was Canterbury. Would like to try a 50m but is either Crawley or Crystal Palace, a fair distance


 
Hi...I swim at Worthing aquarena, the pool is being replaced by a brand new one next door very soon.


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## xxmimixx (18 Dec 2011)

Went swimming again yesterday, it was tri group coaching day. Did 1/2hr of drills and 1/2 of team relay races.
I dont know why but I do quite well at the drills but when we did the team races I did poorly 
2 groups of 3 swimmers. 2 people start, when they get back (2 laps as fast as you can) the second lot starts and so on, 8 time each! 
When I try to go fast my technique goes out of the water! 
I learned that I need to move my arms much faster, and that brings me back to my theory that is much more efficient to swim and draw your arms back closer to the surface than dragging them beneath you.
I was a little disappointed in myself, but I am work in progress so hopefully the more I swim (in the correct technique) the better I will do in the future. I hope.


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## 007fair (19 Dec 2011)

xxmimixx said:


> Went swimming again yesterday, it was tri group coaching day. Did 1/2hr of drills and 1/2 of team relay races.
> I dont know why but I do quite well at the drills but when we did the team races I did poorly
> 2 groups of 3 swimmers. 2 people start, when they get back (2 laps as fast as you can) the second lot starts and so on, 8 time each!
> When I try to go fast my technique goes out of the water!
> ...


I don't do too well at speed either but for now am happy to increase the distance so i can at least finish a Tri. Then look at improving times. Out of interest what time do you do for 2 lengths of 25M? I think I can do 22 secs but as you say the faster I try and go the worse my technique gets


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## Arsen Gere (19 Dec 2011)

22 secs for 50m? I hope this is a typo or I am going to be well beaten.

I use a finis tempo trainer ( see the pro version, it floats and you can change the batteries). I found that as I got further through a 400m swim my stroke rate came down.

So if you are building up you can get a sense of when you need to rest if you can't keep the pace.
I'd suggest that technique is more important than distance, you could be teaching yourself a sloppy style with bad habbits.

Nothing wrong with stopping for a bit, recovering and setting off again with good technique to get the distance in.

Look at Alexander Popov on youtube. He spent hours going slowly to get as efficient as possible. Even when he was at his best winning events he had 30% less strength than his competitors. He was coached by Touretski who coached Ian Thorpe with a totally different style.

I bet in 3 months you'll all be able to finish tri's easily and you'll be looking at longer events and better times.


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## Arsen Gere (19 Dec 2011)

Here is a reference to the coach Touretski's vision etc. http://www.svl.ch/svl_swim_like_a_fish.html#article


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## 007fair (20 Dec 2011)

Arsen Gere said:


> *22 secs for 50m?* I hope this is a typo or I am going to be well beaten.
> 
> I use a finis tempo trainer ( see the pro version, it floats and you can change the batteries). I found that as I got further through a 400m swim my stroke rate came down.
> 
> ...


 
er no ..sorry - 22secs for 25m, and thats flat out!


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## Arsen Gere (20 Dec 2011)

Phew. Made me look slow. But IMHO you are doing the right thing. You can't do a fast 400 unless you can do 16 quick 25's!
I use these as referrence for how my strength is doing. I think of it as like hill repeats for running.


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## gambatte (8 Jan 2012)

Nothing to beat keep getting in the pool and practicing. Go to some coached sessions and then practice what you've learnt.
Just did my 2nd aquathon today. 400m pool swim.
2 months ago was my 1st aquathon. I didn't push 100 and got 10:58 for the swim, my pb was 10:15
todays aquathon, I'd have been happy to get under 10:00
Got 8:49


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## xxmimixx (8 Jan 2012)

007fair said:


> I don't do too well at speed either but for now am happy to increase the distance so i can at least finish a Tri. Then look at improving times. * Out of interest what time do you do for 2 lengths of 25M?* I think I can do 22 secs but as you say the faster I try and go the worse my technique gets


 

Sorry have not been swimming (or any other exercise apart from arm lift - to the mouth and plate ) during the holidays.
Gone back for my first tri club swim of the year on Sat but forgot to time myself, if I remember next Sat I wil report back, Ill try my best!



gambatte said:


> Nothing to beat keep getting in the pool and practicing. Go to some coached sessions and then practice what you've learnt.
> Just did my 2nd aquathon today. 400m pool swim.
> 2 months ago was my 1st aquathon. I didn't push 100 and got 10:58 for the swim, my pb was 10:15
> todays aquathon, I'd have been happy to get under 10:00
> Got 8:49


 

wow well done!


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