# Higher or Lower Gear



## mick1836 (26 Nov 2015)

I returned to cycling 18 months ago to maintain and increase my weight loss ( 8½ stone) as well as seeing the local countryside and for the enjoyment of cycling.
Whilst out on my bike one factor continually plays on my mind?
Here is the question, what is better to burn more calories or is more beneficial? Riding on a level road say at 15mph and maintaining that speed is it better to choose a lower gear so increase your pedalling rate with less effort or a higher gear pedalling slower but which takes more effort?


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## MikeW-71 (26 Nov 2015)

Whichever feels comfortable. As long as you are putting in some effort, you'll still burn the calories.

However, using a higher cadence will be less stressful on knees, and your muscles won't fatigue as quickly. It is usually recommended to go for a cadence of between 80-100rpm. Everyone has their own comfortable point on that scale. Personally on the flat I'll be at 90-95rpm and 80rpm when climbing (sometimes less).


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## Crandoggler (26 Nov 2015)

The harder you work, the more energy you will use. So being in a higher gear and exerting more effort, will increase your usage of energy.

However, I'd imagine you'd much prefer to enjoy cycling than to use it as a form of torture.


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## Citius (27 Nov 2015)

Higher cadences are generally less efficient than lower cadences, so spinning a high cadence will result in a higher metabolic cost. It really depends on how much time you have available...

Incidentally, there's no evidence, physiological or otherwise, that lower cadences are 'more stressful' on the knees.


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## welsh dragon (27 Nov 2015)

Personally I go with what feels comfortable. Its supposed to be fun, not torture. I pootle along and enjoy the scenery rather than killing myself just to burn a few more calories.


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## PaulSecteur (30 Nov 2015)

using a higher gear will probably use more calories - but it wont be as sustainable as using a lower gear.

for example, you might go for ten minutes in the high gear, then be too worn out to put any effort in for a while. where as with a lower gear you shoul dbe able to keep a more constant effort for longer


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## Venod (30 Nov 2015)

Citius said:


> Incidentally, there's no evidence, physiological or otherwise, that lower cadences are 'more stressful' on the knees



I don't kmow about any evidence but pushing higher gears is harder on my knees than spinning lower gears, it seems a widespresd view as well, here is just one link that mentions it (there are many more)

http://www.outdoors.org/publications/outdoors/2011/outandfit/preventing-cycling-knee-pain.cfm


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## Wafer (30 Nov 2015)

I honestly don't think calories is something to think about. Enjoy yourself, have fun, if you're eating sensibly and enjoying getting out on the bike, the weight loss should happen anyway. There's a lot more to being healthy than counting calories and it should be about being healthy, not about weight loss specifically.


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## Citius (30 Nov 2015)

Afnug said:


> I don't kmow about any evidence but pushing higher gears is harder on my knees than spinning lower gears, it seems a widespresd view as well, hear is just one link that mentions it (there are many more)
> 
> http://www.outdoors.org/publications/outdoors/2011/outandfit/preventing-cycling-knee-pain.cfm



Knee pain definitely exists - for lots of different reasons. Pushing a big gear isn't one of them though.


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## mick1836 (1 Dec 2015)

Wafer said:


> I honestly don't think calories is something to think about. Enjoy yourself, have fun, if you're eating sensibly and enjoying getting out on the bike, the weight loss should happen anyway. There's a lot more to being healthy than counting calories and it should be about being healthy, not about weight loss specifically.



It was only by burning calories to loose that initial 8½ stone through dieting and Slimmers World that I was able to resume cycling


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## DaveReading (1 Dec 2015)

Simple mechanics tells us that, ignoring things like friction losses, cycling at a given speed requires a given amount of power which is proportional to the speed at which you turn the cranks times the average force that you exert on the pedals.

In other words, for a given speed, the higher the gear the higher the force required. 

Stress is just a synonym for force, so suggesting that a higher gear doesn't put more stress on the knees is ludicrous. Whether pain or injury will result is a different question.


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## Wafer (1 Dec 2015)

mick1836 said:


> It was only by burning calories to loose that initial 8½ stone through dieting and Slimmers World that I was able to resume cycling



That's an amazing achievement, really well done. 
A healthy diet isn't just one that is low in calories though and weight loss is more complex than 'simply' burning more calories than you consume.
Sounds like you've made a big life style change and keeping that up will be more important than burning an extra 20 calories peddling a bit faster or in a higher gear than is comfortable.


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## Dogtrousers (1 Dec 2015)

I'd suggest you listen to your legs and go at what feels comfortable. This will* enable you to go _further_. You are* more likely to want to go further if you're feeling comfortable. The extra distance will* do you more good than any incremental benefit from forcing yourself into an uncomfortable cadence riding too high/low a gear.

Personally, I always change down if in doubt, and avoid grinding except when forced to on hills. But that's just me.

*possibly/probably/totally unscientific waffle. No I don't have any evidence for it. No, I cannot cite sources or studies. Yes I am just a random internet idiot.


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## Citius (1 Dec 2015)

DaveReading said:


> Simple mechanics tells us that, ignoring things like friction losses, cycling at a given speed requires a given amount of power which is proportional to the speed at which you turn the cranks times the average force that you exert on the pedals.
> 
> In other words, for a given speed, the higher the gear the higher the force required.
> 
> Stress is just a synonym for force, so suggesting that a higher gear doesn't put more stress on the knees is ludicrous. Whether pain or injury will result is a different question.



Pushing a pedal with 20kg/f is still 20kg/f regardless of the gear you happen to be in. Think about it. Knee problems are more likely to be a symptom of bike fit or riding style - but it is wrong to suggest that high pedalling forces simplistically equate to knee problems - they don't. If it did, then every cyclist pushing a high hear would have knee problems - which they don't.


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## Hacienda71 (1 Dec 2015)

I know that Strava is a load of old bollox but very very few of the pros who log their rides on it seem to record their cadence. A lot log heart rate and power data but not cadence which as has been said by a number of people will find it's own level the more you ride.
I always thought your heart rate would tell you how efficiently you are burning fat etc. so it may be worth working out your heart rate zones properly and training with an hrm rather than getting too hung up on cadence if weight loss is a big goal.


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## DaveReading (1 Dec 2015)

Citius said:


> Pushing a pedal with 20kg/f is still 20kg/f regardless of the gear you happen to be in. Think about it. Knee problems are more likely to be a symptom of bike fit or riding style - but it is wrong to suggest that high pedalling forces simplistically equate to knee problems - they don't. If it did, then every cyclist pushing a high hear would have knee problems - which they don't.



I didn't say that,



Citius said:


> Pushing a pedal with 20kg/f is still 20kg/f regardless of the gear you happen to be in.



Yes, but *for a given speed*, you're pedalling more slowly in a higher gear so you need to push with a *greater *force in order to transmit the same amount of required power to the wheel..

So higher gear/same speed = more stress. Whether or not that translates to more pain/injury depends on a lot of other factors, as I referred to in my earlier post.


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## Citius (1 Dec 2015)

DaveReading said:


> Yes, but *for a given speed*, you're pedalling more slowly in a higher gear so you need to push with a *greater *force in order to transmit the same amount of required power to the wheel..



Of course if you push harder, then you are using more force. Cadence makes no difference to that equation though and such forces would not damage an otherwise healthy knee.


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## Blue Hills (8 Feb 2016)

mick1836 said:


> It was only by burning calories to loose that initial 8½ stone through dieting and Slimmers World that I was able to resume cycling


impressed. Very. I read your earlier post quickly and thought you meant that you weighed 8.5 stone, which, since you appeared to be on a weight loss regime, worried me a bit.


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## mickle (8 Feb 2016)

Citius said:


> Knee pain definitely exists - for lots of different reasons. Pushing a big gear isn't one of them though.



I'm entirely sure that you're wrong about this.


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## Citius (8 Feb 2016)

mickle said:


> I'm entirely sure that you're wrong about this.



Well then you'd have to support your beliefs with some evidence. If it were universally true though, everyone who pushed a big gear would have knee problems - and I'm entirely sure that they don't...

If we accept that we are putting an average of around 20kg/f through each knee when cycling - but when we stand up our knees are routinely supporting at least three or four times that amount, why on earth would pushing a high gear give everyone knee problems?


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## mickle (8 Feb 2016)

I do know several old gits who blame their bad knees on their use of high gears, Richard Ballantine included. I know that my knees grumble when I've used excessively low cadence.

However. I shall seek some actual evidence..


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## Citius (8 Feb 2016)

We all know people like that. I know people who swear they have seen flying saucers....they still lack the evidence though...

My own anecdote is that I have been (rightly or wrongly) favouring higher gear/lower cadence for more than 20 years now - and my knees are fine.


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## albion (8 Feb 2016)

When I run out of low gears on my road bike I purposely push slowly and consistently to lower the maximum force I use.

With my knees, it is a fact that the left knee fails if I push at too high a gear for a fair length of time. 
I really do wish that I had an old git warning me about the mechanics of bone/cartilage wear in my, if you can just keep rolling the gear is fine, youth.


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## Dogtrousers (8 Feb 2016)

I've added knees: cause of injury and discomfort (subtopics: high gearing, exposure to cold) to my long list of taboo subjects on Cyclechat.


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## Hacienda71 (8 Feb 2016)

Surely you are more likely to damage your knees by walking than riding a bike in any gear. Cycling by its nature is low impact, hence doctors telling people they are ok to cycle even with arthritis.


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## Tin Pot (8 Feb 2016)

mick1836 said:


> Here is the question, what is better to burn more calories or is more beneficial? Riding on a level road say at *15mph and maintaining that speed* is it better to choose a lower gear so increase your pedalling rate with less effort or a higher gear pedalling slower but which takes more effort?



Is no one grasping this?


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## Citius (8 Feb 2016)

You're going to have to help us out....


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## iandg (8 Feb 2016)

I'm a low gear spin person. I cringe when I see someone thumpin' along at the same speed churnin' a high gear. Each to their own, eh?


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## Venod (8 Feb 2016)

Tin Pot said:


> Is no one grasping this?



IMO, spinning the lower gear will increase your heart rate and increase the calories burnt, not everyone will agree.

I'm 5' 10" weigh 11st and a spinner, if that helps.


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## Blue Hills (8 Feb 2016)

I do know that the year i kinda decided to keep to a lower gear on the dunwich dynamo i just kinda rolled there. It seemed like very little effort. Real "dancing on the pedals" as they say. As a kid i routinely used a high gear as i had the impression, as a kid, that i was somehow getting more advantage from the gearing. The folly of youth/childhood.


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## nickyboy (9 Feb 2016)

Afnug said:


> IMO, spinning the lower gear will increase your heart rate and increase the calories burnt, not everyone will agree.
> 
> I'm 5' 10" weigh 11st and a spinner, if that helps.



On the premise that a high gear set up has the same mechanical efficiency as a low gear set up, it will take the same amount of power to travel at the same speed. Hence same calories burned

Whether high/low gear set ups have the same mechanical efficiency (including the body's efficiency in converting energy into motion) is a different matter entirely


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## albion (9 Feb 2016)

Yes, plus the force put on the knee will be in direct proportion to the speed of crank rotation.

Jut try 4th or 5th gear in your car at less than 20 mph to get a sense of things.


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## Dogtrousers (9 Feb 2016)

albion said:


> Yes, plus the force put on the knee will be in direct proportion to the speed of crank rotation.
> 
> Jut try _*4th or 5th gear in your car at less than 20 mph*_ to get a sense of things.


That's not using a "higher gear". It's using a "stupidly inappropriate gear".

(I think you mean inverse proportion btw)


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## Montydog (9 Feb 2016)

well done on the weight loss...fantastic.....am sure with a healthy diet and plenty of miles on the at whatever gear/speed you feel like will help you lose/maintain your weight.....go out and enjoy the


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## Milkfloat (9 Feb 2016)

Back to the high gear and knee pain discussion. IMO it may not be that a high gear is responsible for bad knees, but it could be that a high gear together with another problem (tracking, alignment, injury etc) exacerbates knee problems.


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