# Advice on this forum



## simoncc (4 Feb 2008)

Whenever anyone asks for equipment advice on this forum the usual suspects parade their answers. A custom built tourer from a respected frame builder and equipped with the best wheels, racks , panniers and other equipment is suggested by many posters. A made to measure frame and bike, XT/105 all round, wheels spoked in various exotic ways etc are the norm in replies. 

I can't think of a better way of discouraging cyclists to take up touring. The most expensive equpment is not required to have an enjoyable cycling tour. Predictably recommending top of the range equipment is likely to lead many novices that cycle touring is an expensive hobby. It isn't.


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## Abitrary (4 Feb 2008)

Only having done the odd short tour in europe on a cheap alu road bike, I can only agree.

Anyone touring in a proper cycling country like france, belgium or holland, should take heed of what the locals tour with. Grumpy looking alu hybrids, but with 5 kids stuck in the rack and a huge tent wedged in the handlebars.

You can tell they set off with whatever they find, and just do it, so to say.


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## vernon (4 Feb 2008)

simoncc said:


> Whenever anyone asks for equipment advice on this forum the usual suspects parade their answers. A custom built tourer from a respected frame builder and equipped with the best wheels, racks , panniers and other equipment is suggested by many posters. A made to measure frame and bike, XT/105 all round, wheels spoked in various exotic ways etc are the norm in replies.
> 
> I can't think of a better way of discouraging cyclists to take up touring. The most expensive equpment is not required to have an enjoyable cycling tour. Predictably recommending top of the range equipment is likely to lead many novices that cycle touring is an expensive hobby. It isn't.



It's a shame that your attempt at starting an argument uses a string of incorrect assertions. Dig up the evidence and quote it then I might believe you that fellow tourers insist on high spec equipment. Full messages please and no out of context snippets.

Meanwhile I'll stick with my £200 s/h Galaxy, Halfords panniers, £70 per pair wheels in standard spoke configuration, Acera mech, seven speed cassette and continued advice that a s/h touring specific bike is preferable to a new but inferior alternative.

All bikes are equal but some are more equal than others


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## zimzum42 (4 Feb 2008)

It would be much better if they all bought BMW X5's


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## Magna (4 Feb 2008)

My my you touring cyclist love an argument it seems. New to the site it appears that Simon has a point- the top gear is always 'suggested'. It does not appear to me that he was trying to cause an argument rather just highlight a potential area that forum could be neglecting.


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## xilios (4 Feb 2008)

I agree with Vernon, my bike is a Gazelle Playa, bought used for 300 euros with Acera parts, my first panniers were the cheapest AGU makes, cycling shorts, helmets, rain jacket are from Lidl.
But after several tours some items need replacing and now that were totaly hooked to touring (and had time to save some money) were investing in quality items like Ortlieb panniers.
Check out Touring Tips on our site.


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## Danny (4 Feb 2008)

I'm not sure that I have ever read a post which says you need a top of the range cycle to tour on. I have happily used a mid range cycle for years.

More often the debates begin because the OOP is along the lines of "should I get a Dawes Super Galaxy or a Thorn", and usually people making these kind of posts don't want to be told that they could get something that is nearly functionally as good for several hundred pounds less.


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## Crackle (4 Feb 2008)

One of the largest recent debates was about a £90 mixte frame tourer on e-bay. I thought it was a bargain and was duly bought by the OP. Sound advice all around was given and even Bonj added to the mix


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## User482 (4 Feb 2008)

My advice on this forum is usually to buy a decent second hand tourer. I got a used Thorn frame & fork in mint condition for £75. I fail to see how this advice would put off the novice.


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## yenrod (4 Feb 2008)

Simon: to me, a bike is a bike so I can race on it, go for a relaxed ride, shoot round the shops on it..loan it to mate...and if I put a rack on it maybe get quite far on it ???? lol....



simoncc said:


> Whenever anyone asks for equipment advice on this forum the usual suspects parade their answers. A custom built tourer from a respected frame builder and equipped with the best wheels, racks , panniers and other equipment is suggested by many posters. A made to measure frame and bike, XT/105 all round, wheels spoked in various exotic ways etc are the norm in replies.
> 
> I can't think of a better way of discouraging cyclists to take up touring. The most expensive equpment is not required to have an enjoyable cycling tour. Predictably recommending top of the range equipment is likely to lead many novices that cycle touring is an expensive hobby. It isn't.


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## Danny (4 Feb 2008)

User482 said:


> My advice on this forum is usually to buy a decent second hand tourer. I got a used Thorn frame & fork in mint condition for £75. I fail to see how this advice would put off the novice.



As a matter of interest, how did you get Thorn frame and fork for £75?


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## User482 (4 Feb 2008)

Dannyg said:


> As a matter of interest, how did you get Thorn frame and fork for £75?



Got lucky on ebay - nobody else bid. A mint condition Audax Classic, not one of their far eastern jobs too.

An extreme example for sure, but there are plenty of bargains out there, especially as tourers aren't fashinable.


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## PaulSB (4 Feb 2008)

As very inexperienced tourer I've always found the advice on this site, and previously the C+ site, to be excellent in all areas. Anyone taking the time to read carefully and think about the suggestions will usually find a solution, some cheap, some very expensive.

For instance without the advice given repeatedly about cycle shorts quality I would never have invested in a pair of Assos, which I now rate as my best ever cycling investment - except for my bike!!! Generally one does have to pay for quality and while some advice is for expensive items if it is oft repeated there is usually a very good reason for this.


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## Danny (4 Feb 2008)

User482 said:


> Got lucky on ebay - nobody else bid. A mint condition Audax Classic, not one of their far eastern jobs too.
> 
> An extreme example for sure, but there are plenty of bargains out there, especially as tourers aren't fashinable.



Humph. Everytime I see something that looks like it is going to be a bargain, it ends up going at what I consider to be an inflated price!

Not that I am jealous of your good fortune


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## Tony (4 Feb 2008)

Simon, what a poor trolling attempt. I'll stick with my antique Galaxy, wheels replaced by the LBS after they wore out, transmission bought cheap at York Rally, Altura cheap panniers, nearly 20-yr-old front bags, and so on, other gear accumulated over nearly forty years of pedalling a full-sized bike.
I await a reference to one of these "millionaire" posts...


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## vernon (4 Feb 2008)

xilios said:


> I agree with Vernon, my bike is a Gazelle Playa, bought used for 300 euros with Acera parts, my first panniers were the cheapest AGU makes, cycling shorts, helmets, rain jacket are from Lidl.
> But after several tours some items need replacing and now that were totaly hooked to touring (and had time to save some money) were investing in quality items like Ortlieb panniers.
> Check out Touring Tips on our site.



My cycling shirts and jackets are all Aldi brand - brilliant value at between £6 and £12 per item. Cycling gloves with thermal lining - Aldi @£2 per pair. Shorts from a 'fat git' store for generously proportioned gents @ £6. Lidl track mitts and socks at £2 per pair. After four years of budget cycling, I splashed out on a Canterbury base layer which was worth every penny of the £20 I spent on it. It was closely followed by an Altura Nevis jacket at £38 which replaced a £9 Millets special.

I'm sure that a determined person could make a small fortune by starting with a large fortune then kitting out with top spec gear but I've yet to meet such a person in over 4000 miles of cycle touring.


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## Ben (5 Feb 2008)

Although this may somewhat go against the whole point of being on a forum I do sometimes wonder what relentless questioners want. On the old C+ forum I gave up posting the same reply about Ortleib panniers three times in a month and as to inane questions about routes - FFS - get a map and get on yer bike!


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## TheDoctor (5 Feb 2008)

Ben said:


> Although this may somewhat go against the whole point of being on a forum I do sometimes wonder what relentless questioners want. On the old C+ forum I gave up posting the same reply about Ortleib panniers three times in a month and as to inane questions about routes - FFS - get a map and get on yer bike!



It can get a little wearing answering the same question every three weeks. If you point this out, the response is normally 'Well, I wasn't here 3 weeks ago'.
The search button was though. and still is.


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## sloe (5 Feb 2008)

Why bother replying if it bores you to do so? Next you'll be banning comments about the weather. It's drizzly here by the way.

Oooh I feel a q about Brooks saddles coming on.


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## PaulSB (5 Feb 2008)

vernon said:


> My cycling shirts and jackets are all Aldi brand - brilliant value at between £6 and £12 per item.



I'd echo that very strongly. Although i spent a small fortune on a pair of Assos bib shorts, and a bargain Nike base layer at £12, everything else comes from Aldi and is tremendous value. I used to buy two of whatever they had on offer expecting it to wear out quickly but in most cases I still have a brand new spare in the wardrobe!!


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## mickle (5 Feb 2008)

One must have a custom built 531ST frame shod with hand-built wheels (36h front 40h rear, ceramic coated Mavic eyeletted rims, stainless butted spokes on sealed bearing hubs shod with Continental tyres) Campagnolo gears with bar-end shifters, Avid cantis with GoreTex cables, Cinelli bar, quill stem and tape, Campagnolo seatpost, Campagnolo headset, Brooks saddle, Blackburn racks front and rear with Carradice panniers, saddle bag and bar bag, triple bottle cages (Blackburn), Royce bottom bracket and Suntour Superb Pro pedals (with Grease-guard). And it must be British Racing Green with gold lined lugs. Nothing else will do, certainly not one of those horrid off the shelf Super Gals, and anyone who suggests otherwise is a idiot. Fact!


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## sloe (5 Feb 2008)

Now that really is a shameless troll. 

The triple bottle cages are far better direct from Mister Wang than Blackburn.

And its not "a idiot" its "an idiot"


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## mickle (6 Feb 2008)

sloe said:


> Now that really is a shameless troll.
> 
> The triple bottle cages are far better direct from Mister Wang than Blackburn.
> 
> And its not "a idiot" its "an idiot"



I is a idiot.
They are a idiot.
We am a idiot.
She be idiotic.
He are a nidiot.

You be a idiot.



Troll my arse.


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## bonj2 (6 Feb 2008)

simoncc said:


> Whenever anyone asks for equipment advice on this forum the usual suspects parade their answers. A custom built tourer from a respected frame builder and equipped with the best wheels, racks , panniers and other equipment is suggested by many posters. A made to measure frame and bike, XT/105 all round, wheels spoked in various exotic ways etc are the norm in replies.
> 
> I can't think of a better way of discouraging cyclists to take up touring. The most expensive equpment is not required to have an enjoyable cycling tour. Predictably recommending top of the range equipment is likely to lead many novices that cycle touring is an expensive hobby. It isn't.





Abitrary said:


> Only having done the odd short tour in europe on a cheap alu road bike, I can only agree.
> 
> Anyone touring in a proper cycling country like france, belgium or holland, should take heed of what the locals tour with. Grumpy looking alu hybrids, but with 5 kids stuck in the rack and a huge tent wedged in the handlebars.





yenrod said:


> Simon: to me, a bike is a bike so I can race on it, go for a relaxed ride, shoot round the shops on it..loan it to mate...and if I put a rack on it maybe get quite far on it ???? lol....
> You can tell they set off with whatever they find, and just do it, so to say.



Well said. WELL SAID.
'cc and abitrary right on the button as usual. As is yenners.
Glad it's not only me that notices this, and I don't even DO touring!
Cyclists new to touring should post a question in the beginners specifically asking simply for advice on how to use the touring forum. The correct response should be that there is far too much received wisdom, snobbery and steelophilia bandied around.





Crackle said:


> One of the largest recent debates was about a £90 mixte frame tourer on e-bay. I thought it was a bargain and was duly bought by the OP. Sound advice all around was given and even Bonj added to the mix


  what do you mean, '_even_ bonj added to the mix'? advice was given, _especially_ by me!


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## ufkacbln (6 Feb 2008)

mickle said:


> One must have a custom built 531ST frame shod with hand-built wheels (36h front 40h rear, ceramic coated Mavic eyeletted rims, stainless butted spokes on sealed bearing hubs shod with Continental tyres) Campagnolo gears with bar-end shifters, Avid cantis with GoreTex cables, Cinelli bar, quill stem and tape, Campagnolo seatpost, Campagnolo headset, Brooks saddle, Blackburn racks front and rear with Carradice panniers, saddle bag and bar bag, triple bottle cages (Blackburn), Royce bottom bracket and Suntour Superb Pro pedals (with Grease-guard). And it must be British Racing Green with gold lined lugs. Nothing else will do, certainly not one of those horrid off the shelf Super Gals, and anyone who suggests otherwise is a idiot. Fact!



CAMPAG!

Wots rong wiv Shimano then?



(Now THAT is trolling!)


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## rich p (6 Feb 2008)

What a ridiculous 'designed to provoke' thread. People who ask for budget advice get that and people who choose to spend more ask advice for a different price range. Most of us spend more than we need to because we like the gear and the bling.
Get back to Soapbox Simoncc!


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## domtyler (6 Feb 2008)

simoncc said:


> Whenever anyone asks for equipment advice on this forum the usual suspects parade their answers. A custom built tourer from a respected frame builder and equipped with the best wheels, racks , panniers and other equipment is suggested by many posters. A made to measure frame and bike, XT/105 all round, wheels spoked in various exotic ways etc are the norm in replies.
> 
> I can't think of a better way of discouraging cyclists to take up touring. The most expensive equpment is not required to have an enjoyable cycling tour. Predictably recommending top of the range equipment is likely to lead many novices that cycle touring is an expensive hobby. It isn't.



The bike you describe would probably come to less than a grand, hardly a fortune in the greater run of things is it? I can think of much, much, much more expensive hobbies as I am sure most people could.


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## simoncc (6 Feb 2008)

rich p said:


> What a ridiculous 'designed to provoke' thread. People who ask for budget advice get that and people who choose to spend more ask advice for a different price range. Most of us spend more than we need to because we like the gear and the bling.
> Get back to Soapbox Simoncc!



I just thought I'd provoke a touring equipment discussion and touring seemed the best place to do it. I've nothing against expensive bikes. I've bought more than my fair share myself but I thought it was important to point out that a modestly priced bike and equipment can be perfectly adequate for touring, especially for someone who isn't going to do it all that often.Top of the range top branded equipment is not required to enjoy most activities and cycling is no exception. 

Sometimes I get the feeling that cycle fans get a bit like hi fi fans, and we all know how boring they can get about woofers, tweeters and special thick speaker wire that really does make a tremendous difference, while the rest of us know that a half decent job from Currys or Comet will be OK these days.


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## Disgruntled Goat (6 Feb 2008)

What's up Simon, not getting enough 'Troll Action' on the Soapbox board?


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## simoncc (6 Feb 2008)

Disgruntled Goat said:


> What's up Simon, not getting enough 'Troll Action' on the Soapbox board?



Nothing's up, except that you seem to be stalking me.


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## Chuffy (6 Feb 2008)

Heh...

Oddly enough, the general tone of advice, as I see it from having spent some years on here and C+, is along the lines of 'Buy the best you can afford, by the way I've got _X_ which is much cheaper and does the job very well'. That seems to apply to pretty much everything, bikes, kit, parts etc. I've never seen anyone say, or imply, that you have to have the best or it's not worth bothering.


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## vernon (6 Feb 2008)

simoncc said:


> I just thought I'd provoke a touring equipment discussion and touring seemed the best place to do it. I've nothing against expensive bikes. I've bought more than my fair share myself but I thought it was important to point out that a modestly priced bike and equipment can be perfectly adequate for touring, especially for someone who isn't going to do it all that often.Top of the range top branded equipment is not required to enjoy most activities and cycling is no exception.
> 
> Sometimes I get the feeling that cycle fans get a bit like hi fi fans, and we all know how boring they can get about woofers, tweeters and special thick speaker wire that really does make a tremendous difference, while the rest of us know that a half decent job from Currys or Comet will be OK these days.




The problem is that your assertions have no foundations so the usefulness if your original posting is negligible. Do try to keep up with the posting and the current sentiments before committing another faux pas.

_Some_ cycle fans are a bit like _some_ hi-fi fans i.e. nerdy, obsessive, friendless and elitist. Apart from Bonj the regulars here do not fit that description


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## mickle (6 Feb 2008)

vernon said:


> ......nerdy, obsessive, friendless and elitist.



You called?


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## Rhythm Thief (6 Feb 2008)

I always recommend a secondhand (preferably British - built, they're much better quality) Dawes Galaxy. Hardly prohibitively expensive.


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## longers (6 Feb 2008)

As a not very experienced tourer who looks in here quite a bit for tips, advice and ideas, Chuffy does a good job of summing up how I think this place seems to work. Or at least that's the impression I get from coming in here.


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## ufkacbln (7 Feb 2008)

User said:


> And what's wrong with Campag, eh? You looking askance at my bird bike?



Is askance anuvver make of gears then- and your bird bike is not worth lookin at - wanna make somefing of it?


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## Tony (7 Feb 2008)

bonj said:


> Well said. WELL SAID.
> 'cc and abitrary right on the button as usual. As is yenners.
> Glad it's not only me that notices this, and I don't even DO touring!
> Cyclists new to touring should post a question in the beginners specifically asking simply for advice on how to use the touring forum. The correct response should be that there is far too much received wisdom, snobbery and steelophilia bandied around.
> ...


Yes, Bonj, but your advice was bollocks, and your idea of a tour is riding around the block near a bike mechanic. My "wisdom" isn't received, it was learned the hard way by making mistakes. Snobbery? Not at all. Get out on a bike and just do it, something you repeatedly say you don't or can't do.
As for steelophilia, how are your aluminium welding skills? In a remote village?


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## Tony (7 Feb 2008)

Chuffy said:


> Heh...
> 
> Oddly enough, the general tone of advice, as I see it from having spent some years on here and C+, is along the lines of 'Buy the best you can afford, by the way I've got _X_ which is much cheaper and does the job very well'. That seems to apply to pretty much everything, bikes, kit, parts etc. I've never seen anyone say, or imply, that you have to have the best or it's not worth bothering.


[thirds this]


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## Andy in Sig (7 Feb 2008)

Fourthed.

And I can't recall anybody saying, "and you've simply got to have a top of the range X". If I recommend a Rohloff, for instance, I usually point out that it is bloody expensive. And it is clear that they are not essential.


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## bonj2 (7 Feb 2008)

Tony said:


> Yes, Bonj, but your advice was bollocks, and your idea of a tour is riding around the block near a bike mechanic. *My "wisdom" isn't received, it was learned the hard way by making mistakes.* Snobbery? Not at all. Get out on a bike and just do it, something you repeatedly say you don't or can't do.
> As for steelophilia, how are your aluminium welding skills? In a remote village?



Well I don't make mistakes, I just do it right the first time.


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## Rhythm Thief (7 Feb 2008)

bonj said:


> Well I don't make mistakes, I just do it right the first time.



That must make for a very dull life.


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## Tony (8 Feb 2008)

bonj said:


> Well I don't make mistakes, I just do it right the first time.


So what happened in your degree?


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## Bonj Hovi (8 Feb 2008)

bonj said:


> Well I don't make mistakes, I just do it right the first time.



The man who doesn't make mistakes doesn't make anything........


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## ufkacbln (8 Feb 2008)

Chuffy said:


> Heh...
> 
> Oddly enough, the general tone of advice, as I see it from having spent some years on here and C+, is along the lines of 'Buy the best you can afford, by the way I've got _X_ which is much cheaper and does the job very well'. That seems to apply to pretty much everything, bikes, kit, parts etc. I've never seen anyone say, or imply, that you have to have the best or it's not worth bothering.



It would be interesting to look at the demographics of the membership - is this a reflection of what we are riding and therefore have experience of?



There are two kinds of advice usually :

I have seen..........

I have used..........

The buy the best you can afford is good advice, and most of the other "faults" are from personal experience. No-one is saying "You must have a Thorn Rohloff" or "Dawes Galaxy" to tour... The posts tend to be I *HAVE * a Thorn Rohloff" or "Dawes Galaxy" because................


It is often valid advice as we all make mistakes when buying and if we can save others making the same error then fine, but generally the board gives rounded and sound advice.



l


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## rich p (8 Feb 2008)

I can't believe we're still debating this trollish thread. Don't give simoncc (or Bonj) any more satisfaction. If you're happy with the given advice - great. If you're not then go elsewhere IMHO. Simple.


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## snorri (8 Feb 2008)

There is an unusual degree of agreement on this thread so I think we can in united voice inform the OP "Yir erse is oot the windae"


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## rich p (8 Feb 2008)

snorri said:


> There is an unusual degree of agreement on this thread so I think we can in united voice inform the OP "Yir erse is oot the windae"



Just what I'd have said in a more RP way, you understand


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## just jim (8 Feb 2008)

What about those Thorn spacers then eh?


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## Rhythm Thief (8 Feb 2008)

just jim said:


> What about those Thorn spacers then eh?



Oh bloody hell. Don't start that off again.


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## Dave5N (9 Feb 2008)

bonj said:


> Well I don't make mistakes, I just do it right the first time.



An early but promising contender for least-self-aware post of the year?


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## Bonj Hovi (9 Feb 2008)

> Originally Posted by *bonj*
> 
> 
> _Well I don't make mistakes, I just do it right the first time.
> _





Dave5N said:


> An early but promising contender for least-self-aware post of the year?



Nah - it's a typical post for someone positioned on the less extreme end of the autistic spectrum. Think about it - obsessive repetitive behaviour, worship of a single artifact (crafted from alumium), refusal to believe that a world out of alignment with his own is able to exist 

Shame he's got a third class degree, he could have been acclaimed as an idiot savant - he'll just have to settle for idiot.


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## ufkacbln (9 Feb 2008)

just jim said:


> What about those Thorn spacers then eh?



They are black and shiny......

Are we suggesting that a matt finish is more appropriate?


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## Jaded (9 Feb 2008)

I asked about which broadcaster was best and I got a load of invective.


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## Tony (10 Feb 2008)

Cunobelin said:


> They are black and shiny......
> 
> Are we suggesting that a matt finish is more appropriate?


Mmmmmmmm shiny...I'm feeling spaced out


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## ASC1951 (19 Feb 2008)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *bonj* 

 
_Well I don't make mistakes, I just do it right the first time. _




Dave5N said:


> An early but promising contender for least-self-aware post of the year?


Ah. Not bonj being ironic, then.

Anyway, why has that nice Mr 'I'm Just A Satisfied Customer' Scottoiler not joined us on Cycle Chat? I used to enjoy his contributions. Shouldn't someone pop over to C+ and tell him where we are?


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## Tim Bennet. (19 Feb 2008)

No.

This is a nice forum for nice cyclists.


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## Tony (20 Feb 2008)

Tim Bennet. said:


> No.
> 
> This is a nice forum for nice cyclists.


...and local ones


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