# Brompton tyres sucking the life out of me



## ianrauk (16 Nov 2017)

The tyres that were supplied with my Brompton are sucking the life out of me. They are Marathon Plus. 16x13/8
So any recommendations as to a better rolling, quicker tyre. 
Obviously I will be trading off the puncture protection of the Plus', but dammit, they really are hard work.


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## Fab Foodie (16 Nov 2017)

JMTFU!!!
What pressure are you running in them?
Do you have the firm block fitted?


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## ianrauk (16 Nov 2017)

Running them at max 100psi and firm block is fitted

I'm trying to jmtfu I really am.. but it's doing my nut in.


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## cisamcgu (16 Nov 2017)

Just go slower


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## srw (16 Nov 2017)

ianrauk said:


> Running them at max 100psi and firm block is fitted
> 
> I'm trying to jmtfu I really am.. but it's doing my nut in.



Just relax, and accept that a Brompton isn't a road bike. Even if you had tyres with absolutely zero rolling resistance you'd be going slower than on your blingy titanium job. In the meantime, you're saving a lot of aggregate time because you're not having to mend punctures regularly - which, on a Brompton is a bit of a faff. You'd save a lot more by not cleaning your bike regularly, by the way.

And if you do chuck out the M+s, you know where I am.


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## ianrauk (16 Nov 2017)

cisamcgu said:


> Just go slower



DO WHAT?


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## ianrauk (16 Nov 2017)

srw said:


> Just relax, and accept that a Brompton isn't a road bike. Even if you had tyres with absolutely zero rolling resistance you'd be going slower than on your blingy titanium job. In the meantime, you're saving a lot of aggregate time because you're not having to mend punctures regularly - which, on a Brompton is a bit of a faff. You'd save a lot more by not cleaning your bike regularly, by the way.
> 
> And if you do chuck out the M+s, you know where I am.




I've been trying to do just that. I know the bike is not what I want to be and to be honest I'm not really enjoying the experience of a Brompton. It's just not doing it for me. So yes, I have been spoilt by my blingy jobs. 
I do hear ya about the non puncture aspects, I just didn't expect the tyres to be so hard running.

I must admit, cleaning the Brompton is a breeze. Very quick to wipe over and keep clean.

I'll keep you in mind if I do change the tyres


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## Hill Wimp (16 Nov 2017)

cisamcgu said:


> Just go slower


 like that's going to happen.


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## ianrauk (16 Nov 2017)

Hill Wimp said:


> like that's going to happen.




Honestly, I am trying... I knows you don't believe me


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## TheDoctor (16 Nov 2017)

I use straight Marathon and don't find them too draggy.
Sufficiently so that I've toured on them.


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## Kell (16 Nov 2017)

I swapped from Marathon to Marathon plusses over a year ago and I haven't found I've gone any slower.

My average cruising speed on the flat is +/- 18mph.

This is around 3-4 mph slower than my (cheap) road bike in the places where I've ridden them both, but I'd happily trade off that speed for puncture resistance. Not had one puncture since switching. And in actual fact, most of that is probably down to aerodynamics rather than tyres.

The kojaks are faster rolling, but as I commute to work, I really don't fancy having to get the back wheel off at the side of the road.


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## cisamcgu (16 Nov 2017)

I average about 10-12 mph on my Brommie, but then I am old and fat


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## mjr (16 Nov 2017)

Non-folding Kojaks currently on sale at SJS Cycles £14 each. https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/tyres-16-349/ - looks like the best of a very limited range to me.


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## mjr (16 Nov 2017)

ianrauk said:


> Running them at max 100psi and firm block is fitted
> 
> I'm trying to jmtfu I really am.. but it's doing my nut in.


I would expect 100psi to lose a lot of energy bouncing you up and down on our shoot roads, as well as do your nuts in.


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## Jason (16 Nov 2017)

ianrauk said:


> I've been trying to do just that. I know the bike is not what I want to be and to be honest I'm not really enjoying the experience of a Brompton. It's just not doing it for me.



This was my biggest reason for not buying a Brompton. The 16" wheels were too much of a compromise, and hence a Dahon with 20" wheels feels more "bike like"


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## ianrauk (16 Nov 2017)

mjr said:


> I would expect 100psi to lose a lot of energy bouncing you up and down on our shoot roads, as well as do your nuts in.




Does neither


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## potsy (16 Nov 2017)

Sounds more like the bike than the tyres to me.

I can understand they might be useful for certain occasions but have never fancied getting one myself.

Are you doing short trips or decent mileage?


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## T4tomo (16 Nov 2017)

TheDoctor said:


> I use straight Marathon and don't find them too draggy.
> Sufficiently so that I've toured on them.


me to, but nit sure you'll notice so much of a difference to change new to new, being a tight Yorkshireman, Id just replace them with standard Ms when they wear out.


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## ianrauk (16 Nov 2017)

potsy said:


> Sounds more like the bike than the tyres to me.
> 
> I can understand they might be useful for certain occasions but have never fancied getting one myself.
> 
> Are you doing short trips or decent mileage?




25 mile round trip daily


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## potsy (16 Nov 2017)

ianrauk said:


> 25 mile round trip daily


You need a good road bike for that kind of distance


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## ianrauk (16 Nov 2017)

potsy said:


> You need a good road bike for that kind of distance




I'm surprised you remember what riding a bike is Pots


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## mjr (16 Nov 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> Ive done one 100 miler on the Brommie. Tyres weren't a problem. Sitting upright into the wind was.


One of the advantages of a Brompton is a choice of handlebars, isn't it? Is it the S bar which is thought to be lowest/most aero?



ianrauk said:


> Does neither


Sorry. I thought you said it was slow and doing your nuts in.


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## ianrauk (16 Nov 2017)

mjr said:


> One of the advantages of a Brompton is a choice of handlebars, isn't it? Is it the S bar which is thought to be lowest/most aero?
> 
> 
> Sorry. I thought you said it was slow and doing your nuts in.




Nut - head


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## dan_bo (16 Nov 2017)

potsy said:


> Sounds more like the bike than the tyres to me.
> 
> I can understand they might be useful for certain occasions but have never fancied getting one myself.
> 
> Are you doing short trips or decent mileage?



Go on you must be bored of tripping over the other 6 by now.


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## dan_bo (16 Nov 2017)

ianrauk said:


> Nut - head


Bonce? Swede?


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## Pale Rider (16 Nov 2017)

Bicycles built for speed and distance have big wheels, so I suspect the laws of physics mean there's no way to cure your problem while the bike has 16" wheels.

I think you have a six-speed?

On any view you are a strong cyclist, so it would be interesting to see how you would get on with a two-speed Brommie on Kojak slicks.

What I can't think of is any financially viable way of carrying out that experiment.


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## ianrauk (16 Nov 2017)

Jasonbourne said:


> This was my biggest reason for not buying a Brompton. The 16" wheels were too much of a compromise, and hence a Dahon with 20" wheels feels more "bike like"




Thing is my commute is broken up by a train journey hence being forced into buying a Brompton. I may start to look at other options like 20"ers


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## ianrauk (16 Nov 2017)

Pale Rider said:


> Bicycles built for speed and distance have big wheels, so I suspect the laws of physics mean there's no way to cure your problem while the bike has 16" wheels.
> 
> I think you have a six-speed?
> 
> ...




Yup 6 speed. And that's another thing. I just can't find a comfortable cruising gear out of the 6. They are all either too high or too low, no good inbetween.


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## jefmcg (16 Nov 2017)

My default tyres on 16" wheels are Marathons. I gave up on M+ after getting 3 punctures on them and taking the best part of an hour each time to get them on made me murderous. Kojaks are good but a rubbing brake will cut through the sidewalls before you notice there's a problem (DAMHIKT) and a discard Stanley blade will cut through them like butter (DAMHIKT, either)

There's nothing inherently slow about 16" wheels, btw.


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## Fab Foodie (16 Nov 2017)

As mentioned, wind resistance from the more upright riding position of the Brommie is the major issue speedwise, not tyre rolling resistance. 

Also, rear wheel removal on a a Brommie is not that great a faff compares to any other hub geared bike.


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## Pale Rider (16 Nov 2017)

ianrauk said:


> Thing is my commute is broken up by a train journey hence being forced into buying a Brompton. I may start to look at other options like 20"ers



Mate of mine has a couple of old Moultons, not sure of the wheel size, but on the one he has with drop bars/derailer gears he seems able to keep the pace with road bike riders.


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## jefmcg (16 Nov 2017)

Well, exactly 


View: https://youtu.be/Pb5e46nDg5Y?t=110


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## ianrauk (16 Nov 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> Well, choice of bars isn't much of an advantage once you've chosen them, as you're (relatively) stuck with them.
> I have M type. I find if I ride it for more than an hour or so I'm yearning for new hand positions. If I ever make a habit of doing long rides on it I'll experiment with bar-ends probably.
> But this is all a bit off topic.




I've actually got bar ends for my handle bars - S-Type. Though as I only do a short daily commute I haven't bothered to fit them yet.


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## Kell (16 Nov 2017)

I'm not sure the wheel size is the major problem.

I moved to a Brompton from a full size folding Dahon with 26" wheels. The Brompton is neither faster nor slower in the grand scheme of things.

It does suffer on poor road surfaces however as the smaller wheels are more affected by potholes, bumps, dips etc.

Mine is a standard six speed and I use 4th for setting off, 5th for most pedaling up to about 20mph and 6th for downhills and tailwinds. 



cisamcgu said:


> I average about 10-12 mph on my Brommie, but then I am old and fat



Just for the record, I'm 45 and 16 stone, so I think I'm also in that camp.


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## Kell (16 Nov 2017)

OH. PS - I also fitted a Joseph Kuosac firm block - much less bouncy.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxeEln3X2qs


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## Jason (16 Nov 2017)

ianrauk said:


> Thing is my commute is broken up by a train journey hence being forced into buying a Brompton. I may start to look at other options like 20"ers



Yes mine to - a 5 mile ride to the nearest Oyster station and then the same from mainline station. Flat/folding pedals also made it harder as i'm used to SPD on all the other bikes, but the requirement for office shoes means i can't/don't have the luxury of swappng them over.

Edit: The underground states the bike must be folding and under 20" wheel size, so you're not limited to just Bromptons. Never had an issue using mine all over London


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## Salty seadog (16 Nov 2017)

mjr said:


> Non-folding Kojaks currently on sale at SJS Cycles £14 each. https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/tyres-16-349/ - looks like the best of a very limited range to me.



I've recently slicked up my old redundant mtb as I have a new one for the trails. It will now be a town/crap weather bike. I put 26x 2.0 kojaks on it. They have a running range of 30 - 70 psi iirc. The most uncomfortable ride I've ever had. At 60psi like concrete, at 40psi better but still way harsh.


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## Salty seadog (16 Nov 2017)

ianrauk said:


> Nut - head





dan_bo said:


> Bonce? Swede?



Loaf? Noggin?


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## Kell (17 Nov 2017)

Salty seadog said:


> Loaf? Noggin?



Northumberland = Nappa.


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## ianrauk (17 Nov 2017)

Kell said:


> OH. PS - I also fitted a Joseph Kuosac firm block - much less bouncy.
> 
> 
> View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxeEln3X2qs





Thanks for that @Kell , I'll look at getting one of those. Even though the block I do have is a 'firm' one, it still is a little bouncy.

Though, one thing I will say about the Brompton is that it is a nice comfy ride. The saddle seems to suite me too.


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## Kell (17 Nov 2017)

I find it especially useful at higher RPMs where the short cranks and bouncy ride contribute to a lot of bobbing.

I have to say that I was expecting the ride to be much harsher, but to be honest I can't really tell the difference and I certainly don't miss the old suspension block. For anyone that wants to make their Brompton a little quicker I'd definitely recommend one.


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## subaqua (17 Nov 2017)

Foodie nails it in the first reply . 

HTFU .... as per Rule 5.


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## GrumpyGregry (17 Nov 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> Well, choice of bars isn't much of an advantage once you've chosen them, as you're (relatively) stuck with them.
> I have M type. I find if I ride it for more than an hour or so I'm yearning for new hand positions. If I ever make a habit of doing long rides on it I'll experiment with bar-ends probably.
> But this is all a bit off topic.


Ergons on my S type B


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## alicat (17 Nov 2017)

> Thing is my commute is broken up by a train journey hence being forced into buying a Brompton. I may start to look at other options like 20"ers



Keep a bike at both ends?


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## ianrauk (17 Nov 2017)

alicat said:


> Keep a bike at both ends?


No chance. If I did then it would have to be a clunker to leave overnight locked to racks. I do not do clunkers and leaving a bike overnight in SE London, well...


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## GrumpyGregry (17 Nov 2017)

Are kojaks really that prone to visitations and can't park patches take care if visited?


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## TheDoctor (18 Nov 2017)

Kojaks were vigorously discouraged from FNRttC rides for over fairy-friendliness IIRC.


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## reppans (18 Nov 2017)

As many have mentioned, nothing inherently slow about the small wheels - they've actually broken quite a few land speed records, including a Moulton record still standing.
http://www.rodbikes.com/articles/bicycle-land-speed-records.html

IMHO the Brompton feels slower/less efficient than it actually is - I've run time trials with my equivalently priced 700x32 (same pressure, similar tire profile) gravel bike and was surprised to find I was only ~1mph/7% slower on the B. Rigged my M bars with a aero drop position and cut that in half to 0.5mph/3.5%, not to mention adding comfort. Knock that down another 1% if I included the necessary 2kg of locks for the gravel bike. I figure that last 2.5% is there to stay - a combination of inefficiencies from the dual drivetrain (derailleur+IGH), imperfect gear ratios, handlebar/suspension flex, and half-clip vs Clipless pedals.

For me the difference in speed/efficiency/comfort between the two bikes is now so small that I regularly alternate between two on loop exercise rides (no intentions of stopping/locking/folding). The Brompton always feels slower to me, but the endless advantages of that fold make it my goto bike. YMMV, of course.


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## Elybazza61 (19 Nov 2017)

ianrauk said:


> No chance. If I did then it would have to be a clunker to leave overnight locked to racks. I do not do clunkers and leaving a bike overnight in SE London, well...



This is what I do in Cambridge;it's an old Ridgeback frame which looks like it's been fired at with a shotgun, set up single-speed with old shimano bits.It can get left for a week without use but it's always there when needed,even if it did get nicked I wouldn't worry as it's not cost me anything and the money saved not buying a Brompton/Dahon/whatever has gone on blingy bits on the nice bikes.


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## Ming the Merciless (19 Nov 2017)

Agree with the others ordinary marathons have a good balance between ride and puncture protection. You will not feel like the life is being sucked out of you.


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## simon.r (19 Nov 2017)

Somewhere in between the Marathon and the Kojak is the standard Brompton tyre: 

https://brilliantbikes.co.uk/brompton-tyres-tubes/117-brompton-tyre-kevlar-16in.html

I’m another pootler on the Brompton, but on the odd occasion I do push on I can’t say I notice significantly more rolling resistance on these than an average 700c tyres. 

Worth looking on eBay if you want a pair cheap as they quite often appear on there in nearly new condition.


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## The Jogger (21 Nov 2017)

Tannus? Although mine is now in getting a marathon +

https://www.tannus.co.uk/


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## Dave 123 (21 Nov 2017)

My rear tyre blew a big hole on my Spa yesterday @ianrauk and I went to replace it. It was a Schwalbe Marathon Racer. Rutland cycles only had an M+, it was either that or go home on my front wheel!

It's like riding on concrete tyres! I feel your pain!


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## fatjel (24 Nov 2017)

I have Brompton tyres on mine. They came with it and feel OK .
Was expecting to have to change them as I’m very picky about tyres as a rule.
Never had m+ that I could tolerate. Normal marathons always feel like they roll better to me
I have to say carbon frame and dura ace wheels get me along a bit quicker


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## ianrauk (6 Dec 2017)

I've changed the tyres from Marathon Plus to the standard Brompton Tyres. They do seem to be a little bit better rolling.
However, I think that having had to change my mindset as to how I am riding and a month down the line of using the bike. My mind, body and muscles are becoming more in tune with the Brompton. I am definitely getting a little quicker on the commute.

The M+'s are in the shed and will be used as spares.


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## Fab Foodie (6 Dec 2017)

ianrauk said:


> I've changed the tyres from Marathon Plus to the standard Brompton Tyres. They do seem to be a little bit better rolling.
> However, I think that having had to change my mindset as to how I am riding and a month down the line of using the bike. My mind, body and muscles are becoming more in tune with the Brompton. I am definitely getting a little quicker on the commute.
> 
> The M+'s are in the shed and will be used as spares.


That’s good, and I think normal. The B is a different riding proposition and it takes a while to settle into it.
Another thing I thought if was whether setting the saddle more rearwards might help. I used the Brompton extension to do that and it makes the bike feel a little more ‘normal’ for me (of long back and short legs).
Glad it’s getting better anyhow :-)


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## ianrauk (6 Dec 2017)

The saddle seems to be in the right position, it's certainly not uncomfortable. 
I do also have the seat post at the max. I'm 5'9", so anyone taller must have a bit of a problem or have a taller post.


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## Kell (6 Dec 2017)

It's more about aero dynamics. Brompton set up their bikes with the sadlle pushed as far forward on the rails as it will go - obviously making you more 'sit-up-and-beg' It was one of the first things I altered. Flipped the pentaclip the other way up and pushed the seat right back.

I also think they do take a lot of getting used to.

After 30+ years of riding MTBs I bought my first road bike (or racer as we used to call them) about 3 years ago and it felt really twitchy. Now when I use the road bike after being on the Brompton all week, it feels really planted.

It also takes a while to get used to the gearing.

Brompton set up:







Mine:


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## lazyfatgit (6 Dec 2017)

At 6 2 I should probably have got the extended post but get by with the pentaclip reversed and as close to the top of the post as I dared.

I don’t commute on it now but when I did I found the Brompton green tyres ok. I dislike the M+ that I tried on a previous bike and have never purchased any since. Did run Marathons on the tourer and they weren’t too bad.


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## ianrauk (6 Dec 2017)

Thanks @Kell That's very interesting about the saddle. I may have a look at that.


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## Kell (6 Dec 2017)

I wish my bike looked as clean as that now too.


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## Fab Foodie (6 Dec 2017)

ianrauk said:


> Thanks @Kell That's very interesting about the saddle. I may have a look at that.


Here’s mine with the extension. The carradice block obscures it a bit but if you zoom in it’s clear.
It’s a standard part.







Gives a tad more height as well :-)


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## ryanme (18 Jan 2018)

Marathon tyres are slow! 

Schwalbe Kojaks are so so much faster and give the bike a completely different feel, just stick some stans no tubes sealant in the inner tube and you wont get punctures!


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## mjr (18 Jan 2018)

ryanme said:


> Marathon tyres are slow!
> 
> Schwalbe Kojaks are so so much faster and give the bike a completely different feel, just stick some stans no tubes sealant in the inner tube and you wont get punctures!


I left a stripe of latex along King Street a few years ago that would disagree with that! I suspect it depends what you're puncturing on.


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## CyclingFra (27 Feb 2019)

Last year I replaced my original Brompton rear tyre with a Schwalbe Marathon.
The new tyre has less grip than the original especially in wet conditions and also its sides are weaker.
I'm now looking to replace my front tyre, too, and I'd like to avoid a Schwalbe but it seems that there is little choice around. 
Did any of you ever tried the Continental Ride Tour 16"? The pressure range is a scary 45-58PSI that sounds quite mysterious to me.


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## rogerzilla (27 Feb 2019)

I thought the old Stelvios were faster than folding Kojaks, although Kojaks are much lighter. I'm not sure how much real science there is in tyre design - new models are often worse than their predecessors, maybe due to cost-cutting. In 700c, Vredestein Fortezzas went right downhill when they dropped the TriComp label.


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## 12boy (27 Feb 2019)

Does slow mean out the front door to your desk or how fast when pedalling only? My B is a little slower, though not in a headwind since I don't have a front bag, but not locking it up, keeping it immediately accessible etc cuts off time for the trip. I have only used marathons and marathon plusses, and I didn't like the plusses much. The plusses cost more and are harder to take off and put on. Since I have a tan leather saddle I'd like some 349 tan sidewall Paselas, please.


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## berlinonaut (3 Mar 2019)

CyclingFra said:


> I'm now looking to replace my front tyre, too, and I'd like to avoid a Schwalbe but it seems that there is little choice around.
> Did any of you ever tried the Continental Ride Tour 16"? The pressure range is a scary 45-58PSI that sounds quite mysterious to me.


The Continentals are 47-305 which means they are far too wide (47mm where 40mm is the proven maximum on the Brompton in practice until now) which does not matter too much as they are the wrong size as well: They are ETRO 305 whereas the Bromton uses ETRO349. So the Continentals are way too small for the Brompton and in addition too wide, too.


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## CyclingFra (3 Mar 2019)

Thanks Berlinonaut, that's very helpful.
In the meanwhile I discovered that the original Brompton tyres were from Kenda - let's see if there is any chance of finding out if there is anythign similar from the same maker


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## kais01 (21 Apr 2019)

i have 44/305 michelin diabolo on one of my bromptons. had to grind away some of the side knobs to make room. they roll really well, noticeably better than marathons on 349 rims.

that bike is great fun on snow. the rubber compound is grippy in the cold, and i hardly use the other winter brompton i have, with carbide studded tyres from schwalbe. these are both slow and tend to give punctures from the studs digging their way all the way into the tubes.

it is strange schwalbe has accepted this low standard. they really know how to make good tyres, and i am most satistfied with them om my mtbs where i use ice spiker pro, nobby nics, thunder burts and rocket rons. all excellent with really low rolling resistance.

as for the subject of the thread, marathon on 349 rims are slow. really a let-down for the brompton bike. m+ even worse. in bright contrast, with the previous brompton-branded standard tyres and a pressure as low as 4 bars/60 psi you actually are able to keep up decently in a peleton of racers as far as rolling resistance is concerned. 

they are my favorite brommie tyres.

havent tested the new standard tyre marathon race, but their sidewalls are on the stiff side, which might not be optimal for low rolling resistance. could however be a better compromise than standard marathons if you are afraid of puncures.


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