# Range not as good as friend's on similar Bosch motor



## Tim O (9 Mar 2019)

Hello, last week I collected my new Trek Superfly 4 ebike. Went out for a ride today with a mate who has a Cube Acid. His bike is 6 months old. Both have Bosch engines - his is Active line plus and mine is Performance CX. Both are 500 W. I travelled 3 miles to meet him; he travelled 3 miles to meet me. We then did 20 miles. We were mirroring each other's mode performance - approximately 2/3 in ECO and 1/3 in Tour. After 20 miles his range read 72 in ECO and mine read 53 in ECO.

Anybody got any idea why the disparity? I would have thought they would have been fairly similar given that his bike is only 6 months old and mine is brand new. Obviously, his has been through a large number of charge cycles and mine has only been through one (a top up). Is there any sort of "memory" occurring here?

The bikes are very similar in weight. They've got similar tyres and both are 29ers. I don't think the different motors (Active line and Performance CX) would result in such a large difference. 

One difference is that I travelled 3 miles against a very strong head wind to reach him whereas he mostly coasted down hill. That might account for a partial difference but a 19 mile range difference over a shared distance of 20 miles seems a bit odd. 

The other difference is that his bike came with a 4 amp charger but mine came with a 2 amp charger (apparently that's what Trek are sending now). But given that both bikes were fully charged before setting off, surely the charge rate wouldn't affect the resulting range?

I must say, although I'm enjoying the bike immensely, I'm a bit disappointed in this range difference. I would love to hear from anyone who has any ideas as to why there was such a big disparity.

Many thanks.


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## roadrash (9 Mar 2019)

no idea but at least I now know what disparity means


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## fossyant (9 Mar 2019)

Use can depend upon the rider's power output - if one rider is more powerful than the other, then it will use less battery. These systems work on more in, more out I believe. So if one of you is fitter, then they would use less battery power to stay the same 'speed' as someone less fit. Us folk on non-assisted bikes will put in loads of 'human' power just to keep up with an ebike. So the fitter the e-biker, the less power they will need to keep up with someone less fit.


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## welsh dragon (9 Mar 2019)

The weight of the rider has to be taken into consideration as well and the mileage used/left is only an estimate and cannot be taken as gospel.


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## aldus (9 Mar 2019)

They ARE that different. Bosch says as much:

https://www.bosch-ebike.com/en/products/drive-unit/

... scroll down and you can see the numbers. The differences in available torque come at a cost of range.


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## Tim O (9 Mar 2019)

Thank you all for that. My mate will be delighted when I tell him he's obviously fitter than me! Aldus, thanks a lot for that bit of information. It was something I had missed in my research.


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## fossyant (9 Mar 2019)

There is now a world champs in e-mtb - it will be quite interesting how the 'power' use is made


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## Yellow Saddle (9 Mar 2019)

Your experiment is hardly scientific. You just can't control the variables in such an experiment and therefore any prediction or comparison is moot.
Forget about it, enjoy your time out and drink a beer.


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## lazybloke (9 Mar 2019)

Your 3 miles of headwind versus his 3 miles of downhill coasting could be significant, as could different battery capacities. Tyres and pressures too. 
Lots of variables!


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## jowwy (9 Mar 2019)

Tim O said:


> Hello, last week I collected my new Trek Superfly 4 ebike. Went out for a ride today with a mate who has a Cube Acid. His bike is 6 months old. Both have Bosch engines - his is Active line plus and mine is Performance CX. Both are 500 W. I travelled 3 miles to meet him; he travelled 3 miles to meet me. We then did 20 miles. We were mirroring each other's mode performance - approximately 2/3 in ECO and 1/3 in Tour. After 20 miles his range read 72 in ECO and mine read 53 in ECO.
> 
> Anybody got any idea why the disparity? I would have thought they would have been fairly similar given that his bike is only 6 months old and mine is brand new. Obviously, his has been through a large number of charge cycles and mine has only been through one (a top up). Is there any sort of "memory" occurring here?
> 
> ...


Both have different motors.......with different amounts of torque available.

Different tyres on both bikes....

Both riders asking the bike for different levels of help
Both riders doing different speeds

I could go on


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## Tim O (10 Mar 2019)

Again, thank you all of you for taking the time to explain to a newcomer to ebikes. Indeed, I was not attempting a scientific experiment - just a couple of blokes keeping in the same mode and the same speed to see if there was much of a difference. I just hadn't expected such a large difference! 

I had the bike shop change my tyres and we were on very similar treads - both 2.2. But pressures could be part of it - that was something we hadn't checked. Our batteries were the same - 500 W. Looks like the motor and the initial head wind is part of it then. 

That E-mtb race series will indeed be interesting. Anyway, thanks a lot.


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## Pale Rider (10 Mar 2019)

I have a current model Performance motor and an older Classic motor - the first one Bosch made in 2010.

There's no doubt the Performance motor is perkier at the expense of using a bit more juice.

It's also slightly noisier, so progress - of a sort - has been made in about nine years.


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## Ming the Merciless (10 Mar 2019)

If one rides behind the other they will also use much less power due to drafting. Can be anything up to 40% less power depending on speed.


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## Phaeton (10 Mar 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> If one rides behind the other they will also use much less power due to drafting.


On MTB's? is that really a factor? 

Have to say that's one of the things I like about the forum the vast range of knowledge I was starting to look at ebikes & didn't even realise there were different types of motor available.


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## Ming the Merciless (10 Mar 2019)

Phaeton said:


> On MTB's? is that really a factor?
> 
> Have to say that's one of the things I like about the forum the vast range of knowledge I was starting to look at ebikes & didn't even realise there were different types of motor available.



Doesn't matter what type of bike, applies any time one is riding behind the other.


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## Phaeton (10 Mar 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> Doesn't matter what type of bike, applies any time one is riding behind the other.


Just can't see it making any significant difference at the slow speeds the MTB's normally go,


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## Ming the Merciless (10 Mar 2019)

Phaeton said:


> Just can't see it making any significant difference at the slow speeds the MTB's normally go,



They are e bikes, what speed were you averaging 5mph?


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## youngoldbloke (10 Mar 2019)

lazybloke said:


> Your 3 miles of headwind versus his 3 miles of downhill coasting could be significant, as could different battery capacities. Tyres and pressures too.
> Lots of variables!


Not scientific research but on yesterday's ride which was essentially an out and back 22 miles, 11 miles against a very strong wind and 11 miles with, the increased power consumption against the wind was very noticeable, and way above my average. Also on the fast ride back with the wind, speed was above the cut-off for long periods of time, so no power was being used, whereas on the outward leg power was being applied at some level more or less continuously.


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## Phaeton (10 Mar 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> They are e bikes, what speed were you averaging 5mph?


If you had bothered to read rather than jumping in with both feet you would have known I wasn't riding, but hey why worry about facts getting in the way. But for information my average ride speed is between 9 & 10 mph, hence why I doubt that drafting will have much effect at that speed.


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## Ming the Merciless (10 Mar 2019)

Phaeton said:


> If you had bothered to read rather than jumping in with both feet you would have known I wasn't riding, but hey why worry about facts getting in the way. But for information my average ride speed is between 9 & 10 mph, hence why I doubt that drafting will have much effect at that speed.



Of course it will about 45% of the power you put in at that speed is overcoming air resistance.


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## Phaeton (10 Mar 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> Of course it will about 45% of the power you put in at that speed is overcoming air resistance.


I will bow to your better knowledge


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## Phil Fouracre (10 Mar 2019)

Not that I want to be pedantic! but, 500w! On the road? naughty


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## Phaeton (10 Mar 2019)

Is he not referring to the battery?


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## jowwy (11 Mar 2019)

Phil Fouracre said:


> Not that I want to be pedantic! but, 500w! On the road? naughty


500wh is refeering to the battery....motor is 250w


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## JhnBssll (20 Mar 2019)

Little known fact - some of the first Bosch eBike motor prototypes were actually modified Bosch Rotak LI lawnmower motors 

Ok, I didn't say it was an _interesting_ fact...


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