# Would Trixiemirrors save lives



## Bikepeter (24 Apr 2011)

Hi Everyone,

I recently had the misfortune of losing a friend in a cycle accident. She was run over by an HGV after being caught in its blind spot.

It has reopened the debate on cycle safety at crossroads especially busy ones in London about whether more can be done to help reduce the blind spot for HGV's when turning left.

A cheap and effective way of doing this is using the trixiemirror which is attached to the street lights and is used to great effect in Switzerland & Germany already.

This mirrow is incredibly cheap and could be installed tomorrow.

To help with this debate and to try to stop any other lives from being ruined I am trying to make a difference to the safety of the streets.

For more information on this debate take a look at the below petition which has been created in the name of my deceased friend, and I would also be interested in hearing your comments about the suggestion of the trixiemirror and if you think it would save lives.

Thanks for reading.

Peter
http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/boris-install-mirrors-that-save-cyclists-lives-petiti.html


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## gaz (24 Apr 2011)

I've seen this posted several times in several locations but i have yet to have commented.

Trixi mirros serve a purpose but they have there drawbacks. I think there are better ways to solve the issue of people cyclists and pedestrians being killed in london by HGV's. Obviously what happened to paula was tragic and i'm sorry you have lost a friend.

The trixi mirrors have 4 probelms

They are only any good if the driver of a hgv looks at them.
They only work if the driver is at the front of the queue
they only work if the driver has stopped at the first stopline
they only work when the vehicle is stationary [aka no good for left hooks whilst moving]
I'm not saying they are bad, just that they will only work in certain situations.


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## vernon (24 Apr 2011)

I've looked at the campaign web site and nowhere does it mention training for cyclists. 

I'm sure that it has been demonstrated that the 'left hook' can be avoided by cyclists recognising the dangers that they place themselves in by riding up the inside of large vehicles near left turns and avoiding placing themselves there.

There is no single solution to the 'left hook' but cyclists are not entirely blameless and some need educating.


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## Shaun (25 Apr 2011)

Much as it is a sad loss whenever a cyclist is taken from us by a HGV, I would suggest that the focus ought to _be _on cyclists as well - *NOT* to travel up the inside of HGV's; stationary traffic or not, just don't crawl or scoot up the inside of a HGV, ever!!

The HGV driver, who is sat in the right hand seat with no clear view down at the ground-level of the left side of their vehicle, is at a disadvantage - and whilst the mirrors may help, cyclists have to accept their part in road safety the same as everyone else. In the case of HGV's and left turns, we need to address cyclists who insist on travelling up the inside of HGVs without seeming to understand the trouble they can get themselves into.

I'm not defending or excusing poor driving, but we should be careful to take a balanced approach and this means accepting that cyclists have a fair responsibility NOT to be in the HGV blind spots in the first place.

Teaching cyclists about HGV blind spots and how much danger they can inadvertantly put themselves in, should go hand-in-hand with the message people want to give to HGV drivers about care and responsibility.

When it comes to HGVs - Stay back, Stay safe!!

Cheers,
Shaun


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## frank9755 (25 Apr 2011)

I agree with that - the cyclist is the one who has the greatest interest in staying alive and should therefore take care. But, IMHO, the thing that encourages many cyclists into doing exactly the wrong thing is the green cycle lane painted up the left hand side on the run-up to junctions. Why are they done in this way?

OP, sorry for dragging off topic. Could you by any chance post a picture of one of these mirrors? In principal they sound like a good idea, but I'm not sure I know exactly what they are and a few quick searches didn't lead anywhere.

EDIT - have seen one on one of the links from your petition. Brought forward to here for others' benefit. 

They look like a good idea. They may even encourage people to stop at the first line. I'll sign!


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## Red Light (25 Apr 2011)

> I agree with that - the cyclist is the one who has the greatest interest in staying alive and should therefore take care. But, IMHO, the thing that encourages many cyclists into doing exactly the wrong thing is the green cycle lane painted up the left hand side on the run-up to junctions. Why are they done in this way?



+1

I also think there would be greater benefit by mandating side bars on all trucks to stop cyclists going under the rear wheels and in some form of licensing of HGV operators in London rather than adding yet more clutter to our streets.


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## steve52 (25 Apr 2011)

even if they had the mirrors i wouldent cycle up the inside of an hgv, its a survival thing theres allways human error as in he may not look, and its not fair on the drivers either, lets adopt a slagan "RIDE TO SURVIVE"


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## Tommi (25 Apr 2011)

frank9755 said:


> I agree with that - the cyclist is the one who has the greatest interest in staying alive and should therefore take care. But, IMHO, the thing that encourages many cyclists into doing exactly the wrong thing is the green cycle lane painted up the left hand side on the run-up to junctions. Why are they done in this way?


It's just not the junctions, it's everywhere where you have cycle lanes. The infrastructure is quite plainly telling you to stay in left hand side, in the gutter. And then you wonder why people cycle in the gutter left hand side 

Following the infrastructure is supposed to keep you safe, is it not? And yet most suggestions for safe cycling seem to be to ignore the infrastructure for cyclists. Which parts of the infrastructure are car drivers told to ignore regularly for their own safety I wonder?


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## Red Light (25 Apr 2011)

[quote = "steve52"] lets adopt a slagan "RIDE TO SURVIVE"[/quote]

Well that's really going to encourage people to cycle. Perhaps you could follow it up with "FLY TO NOT DIE" for the airline industry coupled with the mandatory wearing of parachutes.


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## psmiffy (25 Apr 2011)

It seem that at present that installing ASL’s with a cycle filter lane at traffic controlled lights is the conventional wisdom/preferred safety measure for cyclists. 

Personally unless I am at the front of the queue when the light goes red I prefer not to use them and just make my own bit of space in the traffic – advancing for a few vehicles makes no sense to me in terms of my trip time.

However, it would seem that research/studies – and if someone can point me to the studies in question I would be grateful – indicate that this is the measure that will reduce conflicts at traffic light controlled junctions.

Having installed ASL’s with filter lanes - and by that measure to be *actively encouraging cyclists* to filter on the inside of traffic at junctions there should be a *duty of care to make them as safe as possible *and *therefore there should be mandatory minimum requirements* for them - there possibly are but if so the guidance given is at present rubbish.

The box itself should be deep enough to hold the anticipated number of cyclists that would want to filter to the front of the traffic – there is little point in installing this feature if the first few cyclists block the access to the ASL and effectively trap the remaining cyclists in the *most vulnerable place they could be.* 

*There should be a minimum width for the filter lane* – *and the traffic lanes* so that cyclists can quickly and safely get to the ASL and large vehicles can stay off the filter lane – The number of these facilities that I have seen where the installation of the ASL filter lane has made the traffic lanes so narrow that nearside vehicles have no option but to put their wheels into the filter lane - with the consequence that I have often seen cyclists scooting one footed down the inside – a recipe for disaster should the light change.

*Install the Trixie mirror at all ASL’s* – it is a relatively cheap solution in the context of the overall cost of installing an ASL to eliminate the lorry blind spot in the context of the cycle filter lane. 

The use of Trixie Mirrors should not be limited to ASL's - places where they could be a benifit could be easily identifed at other junctions during safety audits.

Notwithstanding this education for cyclists in the form of television advertising highlighting the hazard to both cyclists and drivers - plus signs on the back of large vehicles – including buses – should be a priority – *I would hope that is a default in cycle training.*


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## psmiffy (25 Apr 2011)

[QUOTE 1375678"]
Nah, your argument is flawed. They are *cycle lanes* that feed into ASL's - not *filter lanes* it is upto the cylist whether to filter or not and this is where the education ting comes into play with respect to filtering down the n/s of a large vehicle.
[/quote]

Possibly in "the big city" "they are cycle lanes" - but where I live there are few cycle lanes but plenty of ASLs with with what can only be described as filter lanes - not long enough by far to be described as a cycle lane and the only purpose of which is to encourage people to use them to access the ASL 

I totally agree that it up to the cyclist to decide whether to use them - me I do not - but the way that they are set up they almost make it an obligation to use them - if they are to be safe there must be a commitment to design them properly - and I see the use of the Trixie mirror as just one part of that


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## CotterPin (25 Apr 2011)

psmiffy said:


> ....
> 
> Notwithstanding this education for cyclists in the form of television advertising highlighting the hazard to both cyclists and drivers - plus signs on the back of large vehicles – including buses – should be a priority – *I would hope that is a default in cycle training.*



In the Bikeability scheme, the national standard for cycle training it is. At Level 2 (the level when you first start taking a cyclist on the road) the trainee is shown the safest way to make left turns into and out of side roads - and this is to sit in the middle of your lane, not to the left, and, as far as possible, prevent anyone else turning with you. At Level 3 (the more advanced road skills) the hazards of filtering on the left are highlighted. One of the things I always emphasize is left filtering past a side road because there is a risk another road user may suddenly make an unsignalled turn into that road across your path.

The trouble is, of course, that very few cyclists have cycle training. They jump on a bike and ride off, usually learning from what they see other cyclists doing. They see a cyclist undertake on the left and they do. Unfortunately they might not be aware that the cyclist in front of them has carried out a quick risk assessment and decided that it is safe for them to make that manoeuvre (or have just blindly carried on regardless!). So the new cyclist puts themselves at risk.

It has probably been said before but the best thing those of us can do who are experienced cyclists and are concerned about the safety of new cyclists is to attempt to ride in an exemplary manner.

Stephen

PS - what am I doing on an internet forum on Easter Monday morning when the sun is shining outside?????


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## Origamist (25 Apr 2011)

psmiffy said:


> It seem that at present that installing ASL’s with a cycle filter lane at traffic controlled lights is the conventional wisdom/preferred safety measure for cyclists.
> 
> Personally unless I am at the front of the queue when the light goes red I prefer not to use them and just make my own bit of space in the traffic – advancing for a few vehicles makes no sense to me in terms of my trip time.
> 
> ...



Min recommended widths for cycle feeder lanes are 1.5m but they are often far narrower on the approach to ASL zones. The preferred depth of an ASL zone is 5m, although many are in the 4m range. The feeder lane should extend beyond the max peak period vehicle queue length.

As I've already said elsewhere, I have not come across a study that examines the efficacy of Trixi mirrors. TFL are currently assessing them on two trial routes in London.


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## Origamist (25 Apr 2011)

Admin said:


> Much as it is a sad loss whenever a cyclist is taken from us by a HGV, I would suggest that the focus ought to _be _on cyclists as well - *NOT* to travel up the inside of HGV's; stationary traffic or not, just don't crawl or scoot up the inside of a HGV, ever!!
> 
> The HGV driver, who is sat in the right hand seat with no clear view down at the ground-level of the left side of their vehicle, is at a disadvantage - and whilst the mirrors may help, cyclists have to accept their part in road safety the same as everyone else. In the case of HGV's and left turns, we need to address cyclists who insist on travelling up the inside of HGVs without seeming to understand the trouble they can get themselves into.
> 
> ...



A massive re-think and re-design of HGV cab's would also be worth considering.


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## gaz (25 Apr 2011)

THe blacked out area in the photo is the blind spot of the driver without mirrors. What sort of shape does this remind you of? An ASZ?

As i've said before the trixi mirrors have some limitations. And the major one is they are only of any use if the lorry is at the front of the queue and is stopped in the right place.


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## Norm (25 Apr 2011)

As the thread is about the Trixie Mirrors, Lee, I read Gaz's post to be referring to the shape of the blind spot without the Trixie Mirrors.


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## Shaun (26 Apr 2011)

Origamist said:


> A massive re-think and re-design of HGV cab's would also be worth considering.



A reasonable point, but one that would take a good deal of effort on the part of manufacturers, and as history has shown - the only thing they generally respond to is consumer demand (and I don't see that being one of them in this case) and legislation (which would be an interesting thing to look at).

Apart from left-side and forward-viewing cameras I'm not sure what technical developments could be made to improve the lot of the driver, and the cyclist who's on the inside?

There's one obvious one - move the driver over to the left hand side - but I can't see anyone going for that.

An alert system that couldn't be tampered with perhaps - that gives a soft warning tone whenever someone or something is on the left side of the vehicle? A left-side-facing minature radar perhaps?

It's an interesting subject. What else could be added/modified do you think?

Cheers,
Shaun


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## frank9755 (26 Apr 2011)

Admin said:


> It's an interesting subject. What else could be added/modified do you think?



How about a rising bollard at the first white line (start of ASL) that is in phase with the lights. Any vehicle that goes into the box gets impaled!


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## Norm (26 Apr 2011)

[QUOTE 1375688"]
I know that Norm, but since Gaz mentioned ''mirrors'' and not ''trixie mirrors'' and the picture is incorrect regardless. As without the trixie mirror that is not the blind spot surrounding that truck.

If I was sitting in that cab in the picture I would see the cyclist in front of the cab and also the cop with the bike on the n/s. [/quote] It's a long time (16 years!) ago but I ran a fleet of Daf tractor units. They were pretty poor for forward visibility, with the seats set quite a way back and very shallow windscreens, 

I saw a few people getting caught out walking in front of a unit pulling off a bay when the driver couldn't see them, so I wasn't surprised to at the suggestion that bike in front wouldn't be visible but I'm happy to hear otherwise.


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## Origamist (26 Apr 2011)

Admin said:


> A reasonable point, but one that would take a good deal of effort on the part of manufacturers, and as history has shown - the only thing they generally respond to is consumer demand (and I don't see that being one of them in this case) and legislation (which would be an interesting thing to look at).
> 
> Apart from left-side and forward-viewing cameras I'm not sure what technical developments could be made to improve the lot of the driver, and the cyclist who's on the inside?
> 
> ...



A lower cab design (walk on, not clamber up) would be a major step-forward. Cabs currently put drivers in a raised and set back position - this serves to accentuate the visibilty problems the drivers face when driving wide, tall and long HGVs in urban centres. I also don't see why more of the cab (doors etc) cannot have more glass, (like buses) which will also aid visibility. These changes would confront the blind spot problem at source - extra mirrors, more cyclist/driver training, motion sensors or cameras etc are doing little more than trying to ameliorate a key design flaw. 

Staggered EU legislation would have to drive these changes as the haulage industry is understandably not keen to adopt these measures, primarily due to cost. However, I can't see this happening in the short term.


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## Origamist (26 Apr 2011)

[QUOTE 1375692"]
But it also gives drivers that needed visability they need. Because of the size and weight of the vehicle you need to be able to judge more the speed of traffic in front of you when movng at speed.

The stopping distance of a 44 tonne truck from 56mph in the wet can be upto 400 yards in some cases.

I don't see why part of the door on the passeneger side can be replaced with glass either to be honest. Bin lorries are designed this way, so maybe...

I disagree with the driver/cyclist training though, cyclists should be educated as should be drivers. You can have all the gizmos in the world on a truck. But if the driver don't look and the cyclist still goes down the inside then you will forever have problems.


And yes and EU directive would supersede any form of legislation in this country, but would it happen? Time will tell.
[/quote]

I'd not suggest the seats in HGV cabs should be at a similar height to cars, but more in keeping with the position of coach drivers. 

I'm not arguing against cyclist/driver training, but these are strategies to deal with the status quo - we need to address the root cause of the problem as this benefits both drivers and cyclists in the long term.


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## Norm (26 Apr 2011)

[QUOTE 1375691"] Forgive me, I know that there will be a certain amount of ignorance when it comes to trucks and visibility from non drivers and former management  , but still. People should still do a bit of research and even go jump in one and have a look for themselves (or even study the pic) [/quote]Your point is valid however badly you make it.


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## Dan B (26 Apr 2011)

Tommi said:


> Which parts of the infrastructure are car drivers told to ignore regularly for their own safety I wonder?


Speed limit signs?


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## summerdays (26 Apr 2011)

[QUOTE 1375691"]
Lucky you

Have another look at the picture Norm, what's that at the top of the windscreen below the n/s ops light - It's a mirror!! Any guesses for where that mirror points to?

Forgive me, I know that there will be a certain amount of ignorance when it comes to trucks and visibility from non drivers and former management  , but still. People should still do a bit of research and even go jump in one and have a look for themselves (or even study the pic)

The only bit on that truck in that pic that is blind (depending on how on how the wide angle mirror is set up) is about 2ft behind the front wheel and about a foot out from the side of the truck.
[/quote]

The point is not all lorries have those additional (Class VI?) mirrors .... I've taken the opportunity myself to go up in a lorry with a similar area marked up a couple of years ago and took some photos:
https://www.cyclechat.net/

the mirror's help but it is an eye-opener to get up in the cab and see the view and see how many mirrors the driver needs to look at.


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## frank9755 (26 Apr 2011)

Interesting pictures - thanks


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## gaz (30 Apr 2011)

summerdays said:


> The point is not all lorries have those additional (Class VI?) mirrors



Indeed. We shouldn't presume what added mirrors larger vehicles have or if the driver actually uses them.


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## Over The Hill (5 May 2011)

frank9755 said:


> I agree with that - the cyclist is the one who has the greatest interest in staying alive and should therefore take care. But, IMHO, the thing that encourages many cyclists into doing exactly the wrong thing is the green cycle lane painted up the left hand side on the run-up to junctions. Why are they done in this way?
> 
> OP, sorry for dragging off topic. Could you by any chance post a picture of one of these mirrors? In principal they sound like a good idea, but I'm not sure I know exactly what they are and a few quick searches didn't lead anywhere.
> 
> ...




Sorry but No No NO!

The mirror on the traffic light MAY enable the HGV driver to see the cyclst. The cyclist takes his life in his hands trusting the driver. This seems madness.
The driver may now see more of the blue lane around him but he will be killing the cyclist beyond the mirror on the corner as he cuts round. Mirror will not be there then. 

The only safe option is to hang back behind the point where the photograph is taken and not go up alongside the HGV or get into primary in front of the driver.


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## CotterPin (5 May 2011)

And I would suggest the ASL box needs to be at least twice its current depth so that the cyclist can position themselves well in front of the driver and be visible.


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## Origamist (5 May 2011)

CotterPin said:


> And I would suggest the ASL box needs to be at least twice its current depth so that the cyclist can position themselves well in front of the driver and be visible.



I'm still dreaming:

https://www.cyclechat.net/

although on the CSs we did get some ASL zones extended from 4m to 5m in depth...


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