# Wanting to be the fastest on a particular Strava segment...



## Upstream (13 Jul 2013)

Hi all,
Here's the situation... There is one particular strava segment near me that I really want to be the fastest on. I need to do it four seconds faster than my best so far. The section is 1.1 miles long and the terrain is something like this;


Downhill section where if I freewheeled, I could get to about 20mph. It then flattens out after about a quarter of a mile and then
Slightly uphill for another quarter of a mile followed by
Slight descent for about another quarter of a mile before
Uphill (but short) bit before the final flattish stretch.
Usually when riding this segment I pedal hard down the first section and get my speed up above 30mph - this isn't easy for me so then at the bottom I ease off to recover a bit. I think that this second section is the section that slows me down and makes getting the fastest time elusive.

My question is one of physics... When I'm going down that hill that I could freewheel at around 20mph, instead of pushing hard to 30+mph, would I use less energy to sit at say low to mid 20's then then use that conserved energy through section 2 or is it more energy efficient to push even harder than I have been doing in section one and then enter section 2 with a fair bit of speed to carry me through section 2?

My average speed is 25.5 and I need to get to an average of 26.2 to take it ;-)

Any thoughts?

Thanks.


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## Rob3rt (13 Jul 2013)

Don't freewheel on the descent, push on, but don't go full gas. The return for the effort in terms of mph gained is lower at high speeds so you will gain more on the flat or uphill.

TBH, at a mile long, you should be able to ride it at VO2 max or above, with a large anaerobic contribution, i.e. almost flat out, just punch it and hold on, don't be a pussy!


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## MrGrumpy (13 Jul 2013)

MTFU


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## palinurus (13 Jul 2013)

Even out your effort, although a short distance you still need to be concerned with pacing. You don't want to have to recover until you've finished. Don't ease off, do the bit you currently do hard a little easier and go harder on the rest. At the end you can crank it up to an unsustainable effort if you have anything left.

Training will help quite a lot.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (13 Jul 2013)

Squats


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## Andrew_P (13 Jul 2013)

Do the segment with an iPhone or Android app


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## marzjennings (13 Jul 2013)

Don't think about it in distance, just consider the time, maybe just over 2 minutes of balls to the wall effort. Find a pace and effort you can hold for the time you need and peg it. You can recover after you're done, just like interval training.


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## Hip Priest (13 Jul 2013)

Andrew_P said:


> Do the segment with an iPhone or Android app


 



My iPhone app regularly records top speeds of 50mph plus, even though I never go over 35mph. If this ever happens on a segment, I made the ride private, like a good boy.


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## Andrew_P (13 Jul 2013)

Hip Priest said:


> My iPhone app regularly records top speeds of 50mph plus, even though I never go over 35mph. If this ever happens on a segment, I made the ride private, like a good boy.


Veloviewer alt leaderboard (when it was available) Calculated distance travelled and estimated real speed. Very rarely was the KOM running an accurate GPS signal and had travelled the 10% or more less distance than the segment was. 9/10 they were running it on a phone app


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## jarlrmai (13 Jul 2013)

My Nexus is pretty accurate I think, certainly comparing it to my magnet/reed speedo.

I always remove crazy obvious GPS errors.

KOM's on short non climbs are not really anything I put much faith in.


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## byegad (13 Jul 2013)

Put your device in a car and drive the section at a steady 60mph.

That will upset the rest of the STRAVA racers no end.


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## Hip Priest (13 Jul 2013)

They did the National TTT on my local training roads last weekend and a member of the winning team had their Strava on.

My chances of getting KOM were slim, but now they're non-existant!


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## jarlrmai (13 Jul 2013)

Should be illegal

It was the same on my commute, a guy in a race with CAT 1's etc had his Strava on when they finished some memorial race right down my route.


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## Zofo (13 Jul 2013)

Upstream said:


> My question is one of physics... When I'm going down that hill that I could freewheel at around 20mph, instead of pushing hard to 30+mph, would I use less energy to sit at say low to mid 20's then then use that conserved energy through section 2 or is it more energy efficient to push even harder than I have been doing in section one and then enter section 2 with a fair bit of speed to carry me through section 2?
> 
> My average speed is 25.5 and I need to get to an average of 26.2 to take it ;-)
> 
> Any thoughts?.


 
Get a life ?


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## jdtate101 (13 Jul 2013)

If you use a Garmin set the data recording at 1sec, but phone app records every 5secs, therefore strava has to match the nearest datapoint recorded to the start and finish GPS co-ordinates, thereby introducing a large amount of error. The shorter the segment the more pronounced the error when using a phone.

As an example I recorded a ride on both phone and Garmin. The phone recorded an avg speed 2mph higher overall and I bagged a KOM on the phone whereas the Garmin was 13secs slower on that segment putting me in 3rd place. When I see people doing 35mph up a 10% hill sprint from a standing start (but obviously not using a car or motorbike...by looking at the rest of the data for the ride) it's always using a phone and I discount it. I've given up contesting Strava KOM's as the variation makes a joke of competition.

The reason why Phone apps tend to have longer recording intervals is all about battery life...shorter intervals slaughters phone batteries.


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## HLaB (13 Jul 2013)

Wait for a strong wind, stravaepo, do it in a car or with the aforementioned iphone; thats just some of the reasons I cant be bothered with KOMs or King of the Short Flat Bit


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## MrGrumpy (13 Jul 2013)

Strava haterz the lot of you  but yes the phone apps are pure crap. My m8 managed 35mph up harbour drive !! not friggen likely! Use it to record your own PRs achievs etc


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## HLaB (13 Jul 2013)

MrGrumpy said:


> Strava haterz the lot of you  but yes the phone apps are pure crap. My m8 managed 35mph up harbour drive !! not friggen likely! Use it to record your own PRs achievs etc


Your mate is Chris Hoy  I prefer RWGPS for comparison of my own rides but it and GC dont do Privacy Zones like Strava, I feel more comfortable sharing it on Strava.


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## Garz (13 Jul 2013)

jdtate101 said:


> The phone recorded an avg speed 2mph higher overall and I bagged a KOM on the phone whereas the Garmin was 13secs slower on that segment putting me in 3rd place. When I see people doing 35mph up a 10% hill sprint from a standing start (but obviously not using a car or motorbike...


 

I did not know this but found some strange observations on how people got these results. Thank's for pointing this out I shall not beat myself up about it then. Strava also could do with filtering out Pro/Elite and high cat riders to a separate dataset.


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## redcard (13 Jul 2013)

HLaB said:


> Wait for a strong wind, stravaepo, do it in a car or with the aforementioned iphone; thats just some of the reasons I cant be bothered with KOMs or King of the Short Flat Bit



Most Strava records are made with the benefit of a strong tailwind or the slipstream of a double decker.

A tailwind can really fool one into thinking they could have been a pro!


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## MrGrumpy (13 Jul 2013)

Lol not always B-)


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## Upstream (14 Jul 2013)

Zofo said:


> Get a life ?


I have a life. However I do question how sad a person must be who, with an inability to post anything constructive, takes the time to post such a ridiculous comment!


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## Upstream (14 Jul 2013)

jdtate101 said:


> If you use a Garmin set the data recording at 1sec, but phone app records every 5secs, therefore strava has to match the nearest datapoint recorded to the start and finish GPS co-ordinates, thereby introducing a large amount of error. The shorter the segment the more pronounced the error when using a phone.
> 
> As an example I recorded a ride on both phone and Garmin. The phone recorded an avg speed 2mph higher overall and I bagged a KOM on the phone whereas the Garmin was 13secs slower on that segment putting me in 3rd place. When I see people doing 35mph up a 10% hill sprint from a standing start (but obviously not using a car or motorbike...by looking at the rest of the data for the ride) it's always using a phone and I discount it. I've given up contesting Strava KOM's as the variation makes a joke of competition.
> 
> The reason why Phone apps tend to have longer recording intervals is all about battery life...shorter intervals slaughters phone batteries.


Ah... Which Garmin do you use by the way?


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## jdtate101 (14 Jul 2013)

Upstream said:


> Ah... Which Garmin do you use by the way?


 

800 set to data record every 1 sec as I have a power meter.


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## jdtate101 (14 Jul 2013)

http://www.wheelsuckers.co.uk/profi...which-one-garmin-or-iphone?xg_source=activity

As you can see from this guy's tests the longer segments track quite closely, however the short sprint segment is quite far out (as a % of the total time 8-10% error). As the higher % of short segments reside in urban areas and are sprints, this is usually where most errors occur.
Not sure what Strava could do to correct this as the phone GPS chipsets have a small antenna and aren't that accurate in terms of GPS lock. They are designed for static location services not really high speed tracking. As they track the device field of every upload they could introduce a filter to remove phone devices (like they filter on age/weight/contacts), but the majority of their user base uses phones, so I doubt they would do it. Veloviewer might do it though.......


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## pplpilot (14 Jul 2013)

http://www.digitalepo.com/


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## VamP (15 Jul 2013)

Upstream said:


> I have a life. However I do question how sad a person must be who, with an inability to post anything constructive, takes the time to post such a ridiculous comment!


 
Lighten up pal. I think Zofo's right on the money. Strava is just ''a bit of fun''. It means nothing. If you're trying to work out a segment beating strategy on a piddly flat sub 3 minute segment on an internet forum, and you demand only constructive and serious responses, then you are taking yourself way too seriously.


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## Ghost Donkey (15 Jul 2013)

If you want to go faster/same speed for less effort downhill and flat bits make your frontal profile as small as possible. The resistance against air on your body is one of the biggest forces you're working against.


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## vickster (15 Jul 2013)

The frustration with Strava is you steal someone's KOM/QOM and then the bugger goes out and wins it back as s/he was just out for a stroll the first time I get more satisfaction from faster average times and beating my previous bests...oh and enjoying the ride and not getting squashed by crazies!


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## Upstream (15 Jul 2013)

VamP said:


> Lighten up pal. I think Zofo's right on the money. Strava is just ''a bit of fun''. It means nothing. If you're trying to work out a segment beating strategy on a piddly flat sub 3 minute segment on an internet forum, and you demand only constructive and serious responses, then you are taking yourself way too seriously.


Hi,
I agree that Strava is just a bit of fun and I didn't expect to only receive serious comments - some here are very funny - for example the digitalepo link. What I wasn't at all expecting though was the sort of comment from that user which was neither helpful or funny but just appeared to be a personal attack. I may have taken the comment the wrong way but I expect that most reasonable people would probably have interpreted that comment in a similar way that I did.


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## potsy (15 Jul 2013)

Upstream said:


> I expect that most reasonable people would probably have interpreted that comment in a similar way that I did.


 
I'm obviously one of the unreasonable ones as I took it as a bit of light hearted banter


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## Upstream (15 Jul 2013)

potsy said:


> I'm obviously one of the unreasonable ones as I took it as a bit of light hearted banter


 
Haha... Not at all, you're one of the minority of reasonable people who saw it as banter


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## Hont (15 Jul 2013)

I'm not a fan of Strava for comparing against others (just because you know some are cheating or at least loading the dice in their favour), but I think it's a perfectly valid tool for comparing your own fitness on certain climbs/segments.

On an up and down course, the theory is to give more on the uphills than down as fewer of your watts are wasted moving air out of the way (due to the exponential effect of wind resistance v speed). By the same token if it's a significant downhill a better tactic is to get very aero rather than pedal. All of that makes pacing very difficult, though, and many TTers simply try to ride to a fixed output.


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## jefmcg (15 Jul 2013)

Change your sex of strava to female.

I had a QOM at 5mph (i must have been walking at the time, the segment was created some time after I travelled it, so I'm not sure)


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## vickster (15 Jul 2013)

Talking of evil people who come along and steal your QOM


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## jdtate101 (15 Jul 2013)

Hont said:


> I'm not a fan of Strava for comparing against others (just because you know some are cheating or at least loading the dice in their favour), but I think it's a perfectly valid tool for comparing your own fitness on certain climbs/segments.
> 
> On an up and down course, the theory is to give more on the uphills than down as fewer of your watts are wasted moving air out of the way (due to the exponential effect of wind resistance v speed). By the same token if it's a significant downhill a better tactic is to get very aero rather than pedal. All of that makes pacing very difficult, though, and many TTers simply try to ride to a fixed output.


 

Couldn't agree more. The introduction of segment goals (if you're a premium member) is exactly for the reason of stretching yourself on a segment/climb. I much prefer this now to Strava KOM bombing. What would be really useful would be to see a graphical representation of your avg speed over time, so you can see the trend going up or down. The power stuff is now really good and I can see improvement over last yr:


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## HLaB (15 Jul 2013)

vickster said:


> The frustration with Strava is you steal someone's KOM/QOM and then the bugger goes out and wins it back as s/he was just out for a stroll the first time I get more satisfaction from faster average times and beating my previous bests...oh and enjoying the ride and not getting squashed by crazies!


I got an 'uh oh' yesterday lost a 19ish mph segment to a 21ish mph ride; clicked on the ride labelled as a 'relaxed training ride'!


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## Garz (15 Jul 2013)

HLaB said:


> I... 'relaxed training ride'!


 

Damn - must change my next one to read "Pootle on my fat tyred BSO"


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## Rob3rt (16 Jul 2013)

Upstream said:


> I have a life. However I do question how sad a person must be who, with an inability to post anything constructive, takes the time to post such a ridiculous comment!


 
I think Zofo was on the money, that was exactly my initial thought when I saw this thread, but then I wound my neck in, lol

On the plus side, at least the segment you are after is a mile long rather than one of these silly 0.1-0.3 mile segments!


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## Garz (16 Jul 2013)

I noticed some people create segments that peel off a main road after TL's onto a route to their home direction. This means the segment wont compare with the mainstream of riders as they continue beyond the lights.

I think they need to change the headings to some of these titles as 'KOM' is hardly apt for a descent or technical sprint.


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## HLaB (17 Jul 2013)

Garz said:


> I noticed some people create segments that peel off a main road after TL's onto a route to their home direction. This means the segment wont compare with the mainstream of riders as they continue beyond the lights.
> 
> I think they need to change the headings to some of these titles as 'KOM' is hardly apt for a descent or technical sprint.


 I've seen af few hill climbs that u'turn round a roundabout


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## Bman (17 Jul 2013)

Is there a way to find segments in my area without registering?

I will not register on a website just to find out if i want to use it or not!


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## potsy (17 Jul 2013)

Bongman said:


> Is there a way to find segments in my area without registering?
> 
> I will not register on a website just to find out if i want to use it or not!


There are segments everywhere, the whole of the UK's roads are one long strava segment


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## VamP (17 Jul 2013)

potsy said:


> There are segments everywhere, the whole of the UK's roads are one long strava segment


 
Let's be fair...

Every bit of road has multiple segments now


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## Bman (17 Jul 2013)

Thats cool. I'd be interested in seeing if any of these segments are on stretches of road where I try to beat a PB already. I just didnt want to register (giving away personal info in the process) just to find the closest run is 50miles away 

I might be persuaded to register


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## DefBref (17 Jul 2013)

You can create segments anyway, so if there isn't one where you ride, just create one.


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## Upstream (21 Jul 2013)

Gentlemen - Thank you for the advice. It just goes to show how good advice and information can really pay off. During my previous attempt I was four seconds off the top spot. Having done what was suggested by a few people here (don't go flat out at the start and blow up, get fast then freewheel a little and get as aero as possible, save some energy for the uphill bits), I tackled the segment during my morning ride and managed to get the top spot by 8 seconds which was an incredible 12 seconds faster than I had ever managed to achieve in the past!

Thanks again guys


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## Raging Squirrel (21 Jul 2013)

My girlfriends uncle got KOM on a segment, and the original KOM apparently went ballistic. This guy then went out to beat it, which he did by a few seconds. The uncle beat this new KOM time on his next ride to work. Again this other guy was going mental, and was going out at 2 or 3am when the roads were quiet with the sole purpose of getting KOM back.


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## Upstream (21 Jul 2013)

Raging Squirrel said:


> My girlfriends uncle got KOM on a segment, and the original KOM apparently went ballistic. This guy then went out to beat it, which he did by a few seconds. The uncle beat this new KOM time on his next ride to work. Again this other guy was going mental, and was going out at 2 or 3am when the roads were quiet with the sole purpose of getting KOM back.


 
Haha... Wow - I just hope that the original KOM doesn't ever find out who your girlfriends uncle is - He'll probably start stalking him if he does ;-)


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## potsy (21 Jul 2013)

There are definitely strava weirdos out there


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## Cooper645 (21 Jul 2013)

I find that going to the segment page in question, then clicking the date link of the current KOM will take you to their ride along that segment, then below the map click the comparison tab, then you can see where they were faster than you and you can change the way you ride the segment to match them if they had a better technique than you.


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## Raging Squirrel (21 Jul 2013)

The uncle would be okay with that, he works for the police armed response unit haha


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## Moon bunny (22 Jul 2013)

Cooper645 said:


> I find that going to the segment page in question, then clicking the date link of the current KOM will take you to their ride along that segment, then you can see where they live and you can change their bike with blunt instruments.


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## Hont (22 Jul 2013)

potsy said:


> There are definitely strava weirdos out there


 
+1

The first KOM I lost I checked the guy's whole ride and he averaged 12.5 mph for it but 16+mph up the 10% KOM. So the whole purpose of his ride had been to get that KOM. That's about the time that I started making all my rides private.


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## a_n_t (23 Jul 2013)

If you really want to play virtual racing you need to up your game, http://www.digitalepo.com/

I'll stick to pinning a number on my back and doing it properly


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## Upstream (25 Jul 2013)

a_n_t said:


> If you really want to play virtual racing you need to up your game, http://www.digitalepo.com/
> 
> I'll stick to pinning a number on my back and doing it properly


 
As in sportives..?


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## potsy (25 Jul 2013)

Upstream said:


> As in sportives..?


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## uclown2002 (25 Jul 2013)

Upstream said:


> As in sportives..?


 

Ouch! A sportive is the equivalent of a fun run for cyclists.


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## Rob3rt (25 Jul 2013)

Upstream said:


> As in sportives..?


 

LMFAO


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## fossyant (25 Jul 2013)

Rob3rt said:


> LMFAO


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## fossyant (25 Jul 2013)

Where is your KOM Upstream  - can we have a go at getting it off you ?


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## a_n_t (25 Jul 2013)

Sportwhative?


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## Upstream (25 Jul 2013)

fossyant said:


> Where is your KOM Upstream  - can we have a go at getting it off you ?


 
Much as I'd like to hang onto it for as long as possible - I don't really mind if one of you guys whisk it away. Do I just give you the segment name or something else?


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## Upstream (25 Jul 2013)

a_n_t said:


> Sportwhative?


 
I get the feeling that I'm missing some private joke here - Come on, tell me what's funny ;-)


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (25 Jul 2013)

I prefer the private joke


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## vickster (25 Jul 2013)

Upstream said:


> I get the feeling that I'm missing some private joke here - Come on, tell me what's funny ;-)


I think the guy races, while a sportive isn't a competitive race, more a group pleasure ride


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## Upstream (25 Jul 2013)

vickster said:


> I think the guy races, while a sportive isn't a competitive race, more a group pleasure ride


 
Ah... Thanks for that.


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