# When off the peg new bikes start costing more than some new cars - !



## simongt (11 Jul 2018)

Flicking through a recent copy of Cycling Plus whilst waiting for my physio appointment, noticed a carbon fibre framed, plus no doubt, some seriously high end components, Bianchi for over £11,000.

Yew WOT - ? 

Ow much - ? 

Yer 'avin' a larf geezer - !


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## vickster (11 Jul 2018)

simongt said:


> Flicking through a recent copy of Cycling Plus whilst waiting for my physio appointment, noticed a carbon fibre framed, plus no doubt, some seriously high end components, Bianchi for over £11,000.
> 
> Yew WOT - ?
> 
> ...


Plenty of people spend 50k plus on a car, or £500+ a month leasing one. Just sayin'  even a high end bike is rather cheaper to own and run than a high end car (or not even that high end a car)

You don't get much new car for £11k now, then it has to be taxed, insured, serviced, maintained

That said, I doubt most people with 11k bikes have 11k cars...although some may have a fleet of a not dissimilar value


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## Rooster1 (11 Jul 2018)

I know I know I know. Wheels too, £2K for the latest hi-end Fulcrums. Fulcrum that.


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## pawl (11 Jul 2018)

simongt said:


> Flicking through a recent copy of Cycling Plus whilst waiting for my physio appointment, noticed a carbon fibre framed, plus no doubt, some seriously high end components, Bianchi for over £11,000.
> 
> Yew WOT - ?
> 
> ...




That mag usually calls them entry level. Do they do those bikes on the cycle to work scheme


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## Smokin Joe (11 Jul 2018)

Pocket money prices to a lot of people.

And if someone spent 11k on a Hi-Fi system people would be marveling at how good it must be, not telling them they could have got one in Argos for £99.


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## Julia9054 (11 Jul 2018)

Much the same as with bottles of wine, I wonder at what price bike a distinctly average cyclist such as myself would be unable to tell the difference.
(Also, even the cheapest of my bikes is worth more than my car!)


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## Beebo (11 Jul 2018)

Marginal gains get very expensive. 
The difference between a £100 bike and a £1000 is huge. 
The difference between a £3,000 bike and a £11,000 bike is not as big.


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## Profpointy (11 Jul 2018)

Any of my bikes would cost more to buy new than my car is currently worth. And any two (of 3) combined cost me more actual cash than I spent on my current car (which I've had for 10 years)


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## mgs315 (11 Jul 2018)

To be fair my current bike and car both cost me ~£2k so I can’t talk!


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## Julia9054 (11 Jul 2018)

Beebo said:


> The difference between a £3,000 bike and a £11,000 bike is not as big.


I'd love to have a go at riding them to see for myself


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## OneArmedBandit (11 Jul 2018)

I vaguely remember that all competition bikes had to ones that were on sale to the general public and you could buy the bikes Team GB use if you want, albeit the basic one was about £32k.

I never got, can you get fully comp insurance for high value bikes? Presumably if you buy one you intend to hare around on it. Knowing my luck I'd hit a pothole or diesel on the first ride.


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## Alan O (11 Jul 2018)

I've spent far more during my life on bikes than cars - around £800 on bikes, and £50 on a car once.


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## vickster (11 Jul 2018)

OneArmedBandit said:


> I vaguely remember that all competition bikes had to ones that were on sale to the general public and you could buy the bikes Team GB use if you want, albeit the basic one was about £32k.
> 
> I never got, can you get fully comp insurance for high value bikes? Presumably if you buy one you intend to hare around on it. Knowing my luck I'd hit a pothole or diesel on the first ride.


Yes but it costs


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## Moodyman (11 Jul 2018)

Julia9054 said:


> (Also, even the cheapest of my bikes is worth more than my car!)



Spoken like a true cyclist.


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## raleighnut (11 Jul 2018)

Smokin Joe said:


> Pocket money prices to a lot of people.
> 
> And if someone spent 11k on a Hi-Fi system people would be marveling at how good it must be, not telling them they could have got one in Argos for £99.


£11k on a HiFi, I know people who've spent more than that on an Amplifier.


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## Drago (11 Jul 2018)

Thinking it this way. Look after an 11k bikes and you or your children will still be riding it in 50 years or more.

Look after an 11k car and it's liable to be at the big scrap yard in the sky inside 15 years.

So I would suggest the bikes is liable to be better value.


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## Garry A (11 Jul 2018)

I paid about 5.5 times more for my car than my road bike. Guess which always puts a smile on my face.

Yarp, this un.


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## KneesUp (12 Jul 2018)

vickster said:


> Plenty of people spend 50k plus on a car, or £500+ a month leasing one. Just sayin'  even a high end bike is rather cheaper to own and run than a high end car (or not even that high end a car)


They're not really comparable though are they, other than both being a means of transport. My car was not £50k to anyone, ever, and certainly not to me, but it has leather seats better than my sofa, it can maintain a constant interior temperature, it can maintain a constant speed, it can play music in at least four different formats, it can navigate to anywhere in Western Europe, it can carry five people and their luggage at over 100mph, it can safely carry and use a hugely volatile fuel, it can illuminate itself at a variety of different brightness levels and can turn the light on automatically in the dark, it can clean it's own windscreen, and wipes it automatically when it rains, it can charge it's own battery, it can lock itself without being touched, it can travel 12,000 miles without anyone having to do any maintenance and has so far covered approximately 5 times the circumference of the earth without any issues. Cars are amazing complicated pieces of engineering that consist of a range of devices that are complicated in their own different way - the electric windows in a car are many times more complicated than an entire bike, for example.

It seems rather odd to suggest that £11k is cheap for a bike by comparing it to the cost of a machine that is much, much more complicated, created using much, much more material (almost 60% of a cars cost of manufacture is the materials). It's like saying that a McClaren is cheap because the Space Shuttle cost about $200 billion.

Or, in other words, £11k for some carbon fibre and a few cogs is ridiculous.


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## fossyant (12 Jul 2018)

Garry A said:


> I paid about 5.5 times more for my car than my road bike. Guess which always puts a smile on my face.
> 
> Yarp, this un.
> View attachment 418947



Nobody does that.


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## Cuchilo (13 Jul 2018)

I remember when looking for my road bike a few years ago i laughed at the 2.5k bike hanging on the bike shop wall , they pointed out the 2.5k frame only hanging on the other wall . I scoffed and said who would pay that !
Fast forward to today


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## Lavender Rose (13 Jul 2018)

This is the bike I REALLY want.....£8,500 though  When I win the lottery maybe...


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## steve292 (13 Jul 2018)

Charlotte Alice Button said:


> This is the bike I REALLY want.....£8,500 though  When I win the lottery maybe...
> View attachment 419132


And me.


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## Lavender Rose (13 Jul 2018)

@steve292 - They do manly colours as well but the pink looks so lush....I will own that bike one day.....


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## Alan O (13 Jul 2018)

Charlotte Alice Button said:


> This is the bike I REALLY want.....£8,500 though  When I win the lottery maybe...
> View attachment 419132


That does look good, but the trouble is that if I had one I'd have to replace that horrible looking saddle with a comfy Brooks Cambium, and that would probably double the weight. And then I'd have to find some way of attaching a bag big enough to carry my sausage butties, or else I'd be very restricted in range by hunger 

Oh, just add - I do really like the colour scheme.


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## steve292 (13 Jul 2018)

It's the green one in this vid I want. 
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obHHRWsqPfE


Oh to have some money.


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## Lavender Rose (13 Jul 2018)

Alan O said:


> That does look good, but the trouble is that if I had one I'd have to replace that horrible looking saddle with a comfy Brooks Cambium, and that would probably double the weight. And then I'd have to find some way of attaching a bag big enough to carry my sausage butties, or else I'd be very restricted in range by hunger
> 
> Oh, just add - I do really like the colour scheme.



Yeah, the saddle would need to be changed and that would be it - I would never tour on it!


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## Phaeton (13 Jul 2018)

vickster said:


> You don't get much new car for £11k now, then it has to be *taxed*, insured, serviced, maintained


Are you sure


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## vickster (13 Jul 2018)

Phaeton said:


> Are you sure


Excise duty = tax of a sort


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## raleighnut (13 Jul 2018)

Charlotte Alice Button said:


> This is the bike I REALLY want.....£8,500 though  When I win the lottery maybe...
> View attachment 419132


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## raleighnut (13 Jul 2018)

Bike Porn alert,






Only about £4,500


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## Lavender Rose (13 Jul 2018)

raleighnut said:


>



wowwwwwwww


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## screenman (13 Jul 2018)

A close friend of mine spends between £18,000 and £20,000 a year on holidays, makes a £11,000 bike good value to me.


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## raleighnut (13 Jul 2018)

Charlotte Alice Button said:


> wowwwwwwww


I just don't like plastic bikes.


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## vickster (13 Jul 2018)

Charlotte Alice Button said:


> This is the bike I REALLY want.....£8,500 though  When I win the lottery maybe...
> View attachment 419132


I wouldn't spend £8500 on a Specialized. Use your imagination. Design and get something unique. Imagine how you'd feel if you got passed at speed by someone on an identical bike...or several in a group....


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## Smokin Joe (13 Jul 2018)

If this was a symphony by Schubert -





This would be the B side of a rap record that didn't chart -


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## Johnno260 (13 Jul 2018)

I like my Merida, it's fit for purpose, if I had spent more it would hardly help me, a Reacto would've been nice but aero would be wasted on me.


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## Tin Pot (13 Jul 2018)

<clears throat><looks sheepish>


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## vickster (13 Jul 2018)

Cost more or less than the Porsche though?


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## Alan O (13 Jul 2018)

Tin Pot said:


> <clears throat><looks sheepish>
> 
> View attachment 419169
> 
> ...


If a bike has to come with a Porsche to carry it round, well...


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## smutchin (13 Jul 2018)

vickster said:


> Imagine how you'd feel if you got passed at speed by someone on an identical bike...or several in a group....



Why would you give a toss? (Unless you're racing against that group, obviously.)


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## vickster (13 Jul 2018)

smutchin said:


> Why would you give a toss? (Unless you're racing against that group, obviously.)


I don't really like seeing the same bike out on the road and even less so if I'd spent £8500. Prefer to have something individual, but that's me 

Oh and it's black and carbon


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## Lavender Rose (13 Jul 2018)

I would buy the bike for how it made me feel - not anyone else


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## vickster (13 Jul 2018)

Charlotte Alice Button said:


> I would buy the bike for how it made me feel - not anyone else


But if you've spent £8500 on a racing bike which that is, you'd want to be quicker than everyone else, not just feel warm and fuzzy in yourself surely


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## Lavender Rose (13 Jul 2018)

I guess....I mean when I compete now....I am only competing against myself. I have never seen this bike at the competitions I enter. I am not overly competitive.......


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## lazyfatgit (13 Jul 2018)

vickster said:


> But if you've spent £8500 on a racing bike which that is, you'd want to be quicker than everyone else, not just feel warm and fuzzy in yourself surely


Warm and fuzzy works for me.


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## Alan O (13 Jul 2018)

lazyfatgit said:


> vickster said:
> 
> 
> > But if you've spent £8500 on a racing bike which that is, you'd want to be quicker than everyone else, not just feel warm and fuzzy in yourself surely
> ...


Having £8,500 would work for me!


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## smutchin (13 Jul 2018)

vickster said:


> I don't really like seeing the same bike out on the road and even less so if I'd spent £8500. Prefer to have something individual, but that's me



Exactly - it's your personal preference. Don't project your views onto other people as if they are somehow inherently morally superior.



> Oh and it's black and carbon



It's not black.


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## Tin Pot (13 Jul 2018)

vickster said:


> But if you've spent £8500 on a racing bike which that is, you'd want to be quicker than everyone else, not just feel warm and fuzzy in yourself surely



Not for me. I want to be quicker than myself on my roadie though.


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## Tin Pot (13 Jul 2018)

smutchin said:


> It's not black.



Computer says “No”.


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## vickster (13 Jul 2018)

Tin Pot said:


> Not for me. I want to be quicker than myself on my roadie though.


So you don't race on the Argon? Commuter?


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## vickster (13 Jul 2018)

Tin Pot said:


> Computer says “No”.


Looks black on phone? Maybe it's dark blue?

What is it about that bike that specifically appeals @Charlotte Alice Button


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## Tin Pot (13 Jul 2018)

I think we’re misunderstanding each other @vickster ?


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## vickster (13 Jul 2018)

Tin Pot said:


> I think we’re misunderstanding each other @vickster ?


Are we?


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## smutchin (13 Jul 2018)

vickster said:


> Looks black on phone? Maybe it's dark blue?



They have one of Peter Sagan's S-Works Tarmacs on display at Specialized HQ which has the same glittery/pearlescent finish and having seen it up close, I know that one definitely is black, but it looks very different to the bike in the pic, which looks more dark blue/purple to me - though that could be a trick of the light.

Anyway, whatever colour it is, you don't like it and that's fine. But others do and that's also fine. It's not what I would choose if I had £8.5k to spend on a bike but that's nothing to do with the way it looks.

ETA: there are loads more pics of the bike on the cyclingtips review - definitely doesn't look black to me...
https://cyclingtips.com/2018/03/specialized-s-works-tarmac-sl6-disc-review/


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## Lavender Rose (13 Jul 2018)

Some shots look a very deep navy/glitter black colour? Its stunning


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## Nibor (13 Jul 2018)

I more than doubled the value o my car recently by putting my new brompton in the boot.


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## derrick (13 Jul 2018)

My spare bike is worth more than my car, At the end of the day no good taking your money to the grave, enjoy it while you can.


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## SkipdiverJohn (13 Jul 2018)

raleighnut said:


> I just don't like plastic bikes.



Nor do I - and I wouldn't own a modern carbon even if it was free out of a skip, let alone pay real money for one! However, I would love to see that S-Works paint job applied to a classic lightweight steel bike fitted with gumwalls. The visual effect would be awesome.


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## raleighnut (13 Jul 2018)

Metallic Black,







No 'Gumwalls' though


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## Alan O (13 Jul 2018)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Nor do I - and I wouldn't own a modern carbon even if it was free out of a skip, let alone pay real money for one!


Oh, I'd have one if I found it in a skip - and I'd ride it at least as far as eBay


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## SkipdiverJohn (13 Jul 2018)

Alan O said:


> Oh, I'd have one if I found it in a skip - and I'd ride it at least as far as eBay



You're right of course. Flog the plastic fantastic and then buy some proper steel with the money. Makes sense to me!


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## freiston (13 Jul 2018)

raleighnut said:


> Metallic Black,
> 
> View attachment 419214
> 
> ...


My bike is metallic black too - not by choice - the manufacturer only do it in one colour and they change it each year. The year I ordered mine, they were blue (or green - can't remember) but they had run out so I got the next year's model. If I could choose the colour, it wouldn't be black but I can live with it and it's not high up in my list of priorities. Mine looks bronze in certain light:


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## freiston (13 Jul 2018)

Re. the OP - I can appreciate that quality can cost and that there are economies of scale in production, but my thoughts are akin to the OP and to KneesUp's on this. I once saw a bicycle in a shop for £18,000 - more than a brand new Kawasaki Ninja. Thinking about the R&D, the materials, manufacture of the components and the assembly, it's hard to see how the push-bike costs more than the motorbike (except for people actually being prepared to pay that kind of money).


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## screenman (13 Jul 2018)

If say you were earning £5,000 a week as many do some even in the public sector then you may think that bike is for you.


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## SkipdiverJohn (13 Jul 2018)

freiston said:


> Thinking about the R&D, the materials, manufacture of the components and the assembly, it's hard to see how the push-bike costs more than the motorbike.



There is very little R&D required in the manufacture of bicycles. The basic parameters of overall layout and geometry are well proven for over a hundred years, and most bike components are bought in from established manufacturers like Shimano etc, who have already done their own R&D and have been churning out the same designs by the million for years. It's just pick & mix assembly done at different groupset price points, depending on the target market for the finished product.
What you do get in cycling is a lot of advertising & marketing activity, which is ultimately paid for by the gullible customers,


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## screenman (13 Jul 2018)

Why gullible, you will I expect never let us know what you spend your disposable on.


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## Tin Pot (13 Jul 2018)

The carbon molds cost money, the design of the molds costs money (savings if you take up someone else’s last year model), the “print run” costs money...you have to guess how many sales you think you’ll make and place your order with the Asian company to make them, then pay to have them finished and shipped over, then built...then pick a price point that you think will get you past break even without putting the punters off.

Invariably your sales are too low to get a reasonable cost from your suppliers, and the retail price can’t be put high enough to cover the outgoings. Your customers complain they’ve been ripped off, you’re out of pocket, the bank/cloud funders wants their money back and you go bankrupt.

Only the factory makes reliable money.


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## vickster (13 Jul 2018)

screenman said:


> Why gullible, you will I expect never let us know what you spend your disposable on.


Beer. I believe he likes the pub. So essentially he p!sses it away I guess

Or he may have none. Supporting half a dozen children or similar?


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## freiston (13 Jul 2018)

Tin Pot said:


> The carbon molds cost money, the design of the molds costs money (savings if you take up someone else’s last year model), the “print run” costs money...you have to guess how many sales you think you’ll make and place your order with the Asian company to make them, then pay to have them finished and shipped over, then built...then pick a price point that you think will get you past break even without putting the punters off.
> 
> Invariably your sales are too low to get a reasonable cost from your suppliers, and the retail price can’t be put high enough to cover the outgoings. Your customers complain they’ve been ripped off, you’re out of pocket, the bank/cloud funders wants their money back and you go bankrupt.
> 
> Only the factory makes reliable money.


If that were [invariably] true then there would be a history of short-lived but defunct companies, possibly a small number of new companies yet to go bust and not one bank prepared to back the venture.


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## Cuchilo (13 Jul 2018)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> There is very little R&D required in the manufacture of bicycles. The basic parameters of overall layout and geometry are well proven for over a hundred years, and most bike components are bought in from established manufacturers like Shimano etc, who have already done their own R&D and have been churning out the same designs by the million for years. It's just pick & mix assembly done at different groupset price points, depending on the target market for the finished product.
> What you do get in cycling is a lot of advertising & marketing activity, which is ultimately paid for by the gullible customers,



Get your head out of the skip mate and treat yourself to a new bike. You will love it and hopefully stop being so grumpy .


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## Tin Pot (13 Jul 2018)

Cuchilo said:


> Get your head out of the skip mate and treat yourself to a new bike. You will love it and hopefully stop being so grumpy .


+1

https://www.slowtwitch.com/Products/Tri_Bikes_2018/index.html


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## screenman (13 Jul 2018)

Tin Pot said:


> +1
> 
> https://www.slowtwitch.com/Products/Tri_Bikes_2018/index.html



10 likes.


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## freiston (13 Jul 2018)

screenman said:


> 10 likes.


and a bucket of vomit from me.


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## screenman (13 Jul 2018)

freiston said:


> and a bucket of vomit from me.



That is the point.


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## freiston (14 Jul 2018)

screenman said:


> That is the point.


Are you trolling/flaming?


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## Blue Hills (14 Jul 2018)

Rooster1 said:


> I know I know I know. Wheels too, £2K for the latest hi-end Fulcrums. Fulcrum that.


I'd better not quote the words of the oxbridge engineering don on such wheels at a cycling engineering event I went to a few months ago.


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## Blue Hills (14 Jul 2018)

Alan O said:


> I've spent far more during my life on bikes than cars - around £800 on bikes, and £50 on a car once.


Can we see a pic of the car?


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## Blue Hills (14 Jul 2018)

Beebo said:


> Marginal gains get very expensive.
> The difference between a £100 bike and a £1000 is huge.
> The difference between a £3,000 bike and a £11,000 bike is not as big.


A like is not enough so a post to say you've hit the nail firmly on the head.


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## Blue Hills (14 Jul 2018)

Drago said:


> Thinking it this way. Look after an 11k bikes and you or your children will still be riding it in 50 years or more.
> 
> Look after an 11k car and it's liable to be at the big scrap yard in the sky inside 15 years.
> 
> So I would suggest the bikes is liable to be better value.


Not sure i agree drago. An 11k bike is going to be very high performance and need a lot of care and attention to keep running at its 11k state. Is it possible that it might also need some increasingly rare bits?


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## screenman (14 Jul 2018)

freiston said:


> Are you trolling/flaming?



Not at all, the point is we all like different things.


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## Alan O (14 Jul 2018)

Blue Hills said:


> Can we see a pic of the car?


Nah, they didn't have photography back when I bought it.


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## SkipdiverJohn (14 Jul 2018)

Cuchilo said:


> Get your head out of the skip mate and treat yourself to a new bike. You will love it and hopefully stop being so grumpy .



I'm not being grumpy, I'm perfectly happy to ride my current bikes, but the sort of machines I like best are not being factory-built in the UK any more. I don't want anything CF full stop and I don't want a rebadged import with a British brand logo stuck on it pretending to be the real thing. That's got nothing to do with grumpiness, just me being choosy where I spend my money and whose economy that spending ends up supporting when it comes to big ticket purchases. I will certainly treat myself to a "new" 531 framed drop bar tourer when the right one turns up locally and will even blow my normal loose change purchase budget for this, but it won't of course be new new, more likely 20-30 years old.


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## Blue Hills (14 Jul 2018)

Alan O said:


> Nah, they didn't have photography back when I bought it.


an etching then.


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## Blue Hills (14 Jul 2018)

Cuchilo said:


> Get your head out of the skip mate and treat yourself to a new bike. You will love it and hopefully stop being so grumpy .


bizarre comment. There was a lot of sense in skipdiver's comment (in fact should have repeated it in this post) I can't see that any of my bikes have any tech that is particularly advanced. I have recently been stocking up on some second hand components for one or two bikes - not because I am some sort of vintage nut who has to have all the transfers from the exact year, but because they aren't made any more. And I know that some of those old bits are damn tough. Nice solid metal construction, no crazy weight shaving, strong springs. And so even with some use are to all intents and purposes new. My old ultegra rear mech is a solid piece of wonder - works as well as it did over 15 years ago. Despite the fact that I gave it a knock on a bollard a few years ago and had to get the hanger bent back.. Will be replacing the jockey wheels soon.


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## Serge (14 Jul 2018)

Charlotte Alice Button said:


> Some shots look a very deep navy/glitter black colour? Its stunning



As soon as I win the lottery, I'll get you one. 

P.S. could you lend me two quid for a lottery ticket please?


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## adamhearn (14 Jul 2018)

As with anything, a product's final price is much more to do with the market rather than the cost of the manufacturing. With today's leisure and image focused demographic, sporting goods manufacturers are falling over themselves to look more exclusive/better than their peers and pricing is something that can show relative status and positioning.

Most bikes (like the £8K Specialized above) are bought for emotional reasons and dare I say, bragging rights. If you're not being paid to get the extra 0.005% performance that's possible with the "latest thing" then you've wasted your money and if you are able to, why aren't you a cycling pro (in the true sense of the word pro - i.e. paid to ride a cycle). All this bullshit of marginal gains is just a load of justification nonsense for normal riders.

Cars have also crept up in price but arguably you get more product for the cash. Again, that's a market price - car manufacturers rely on volume as if they tried to charge £30K for an Astra they'd not sell any


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## Lavender Rose (14 Jul 2018)

Serge said:


> As soon as I win the lottery, I'll get you one.
> 
> P.S. could you lend me two quid for a lottery ticket please?



Haha! Thank You - I do have £2 knocking around somewhere I'm sure


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## DCBassman (14 Jul 2018)

I'll have to say I lean toward SDJs way. Barring the old Trek, which I've had from new, all else is used, either free or cheap, then modified to my requirements. 
To me, that's part of the fun - my bike really is MY bike. Unlikely to meet another on the road!


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## SkipdiverJohn (14 Jul 2018)

adamhearn said:


> . With today's leisure and image focused demographic, sporting goods manufacturers are falling over themselves to look more exclusive/better than their peers and pricing is something that can show relative status and positioning.
> Most bikes (like the £8K Specialized above) are bought for emotional reasons and dare I say, bragging rights.



That's right, you're getting into the realms of snob value pricing not value for money pricing. The art of convincing customers to pay an inflated price for a "premium" product because they can then go and brag/show off about how rich and successful they are because they can afford to pay the price for a push bike that most people can't afford to pay for a car. It might be a bit better than a £1k bike, but it's only going to be a few percent better, not 8 times better.



> Cars have also crept up in price but arguably you get more product for the cash. Again, that's a market price - car manufacturers rely on volume as if they tried to charge £30K for an Astra they'd not sell any



When you buy a car, the more you pay the more you expect to get; bigger car, faster performance, nicer trim, more gadgets, better sound system etc. Nobody pays 10 times more for a top of the range car compared to a budget car, just on the promise of saving a few pounds of weight or having a slightly smoother gearchange! That's exactly what they do with push bikes though.


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## Cuchilo (14 Jul 2018)

adamhearn said:


> As with anything, a product's final price is much more to do with the market rather than the cost of the manufacturing. With today's leisure and image focused demographic, sporting goods manufacturers are falling over themselves to look more exclusive/better than their peers and pricing is something that can show relative status and positioning.
> 
> Most bikes (like the £8K Specialized above) are bought for emotional reasons and dare I say, bragging rights. If you're not being paid to get the extra 0.005% performance that's possible with the "latest thing" then you've wasted your money and if you are able to, why aren't you a cycling pro (in the true sense of the word pro - i.e. paid to ride a cycle). All this bullshit of marginal gains is just a load of justification nonsense for normal riders.
> 
> Cars have also crept up in price but arguably you get more product for the cash. Again, that's a market price - car manufacturers rely on volume as if they tried to charge £30K for an Astra they'd not sell any



I think you'll find that some of the top time trialers are faster than the pros and are not interested in going pro as they can easily fund the sport for themselves .
Just because you cant justify buying something that costs more money than you want to spend doesn't make it emotional or a bragging right . It just means that you dont want to spend money on that thing .


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## freiston (14 Jul 2018)

Cuchilo said:


> Just because you cant justify buying something that costs more money than you want to spend doesn't make it emotional or a bragging right . It just means that you dont want to spend money on that thing .


??? I can't make sense out of that without changing it to something that makes sense - and then it might not be what you were trying to say.


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## Cuchilo (15 Jul 2018)

freiston said:


> ??? I can't make sense out of that without changing it to something that makes sense - and then it might not be what you were trying to say.


That's not my fault .


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## screenman (15 Jul 2018)

I would suggest that the green eyes monster is about again.


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## screenman (15 Jul 2018)

freiston said:


> ??? I can't make sense out of that without changing it to something that makes sense - and then it might not be what you were trying to say.




Made sense to me.


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## Cuchilo (15 Jul 2018)

screenman said:


> I would suggest that the green eyes monster is about again.


I think you're right


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## Alan O (15 Jul 2018)

screenman said:


> I would suggest that the green eyes monster is about again.


I didn't realise you'd met my wife.


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## Levo-Lon (15 Jul 2018)

Julia9054 said:


> I'd love to have a go at riding them to see for myself



You'd probably think wow when you first set eye's on it..but that may soon change to " its not very comfy" and a few other ??

In the same vein i drove a £250000 new Ferrari ,i thought it was awful to drive, but omg gorgeous..
The Audi R8 i drove was absolutely fantastic and about £1800000 cheaper.

The more focused a bike or car ect becomes the harder they tend to be to use everyday.
Great if your a pro racer tho


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## screenman (15 Jul 2018)

meta lon said:


> You'd probably think wow when you first set eye's on it..but that may soon change to " its not very comfy" and a few other ??
> 
> In the same vein i drove a £250000 new Ferrari ,i thought it was awful to drive, but omg gorgeous..
> The Audi R8 i drove was absolutely fantastic and about £1800000 cheaper.
> ...



Or you want something to play with on sunny days.


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## Levo-Lon (15 Jul 2018)

screenman said:


> Or you want something to play with on sunny days.



Lol ,of course, jealousy is a terrible thing


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## Jimidh (15 Jul 2018)

Some people like buying beautiful things and one person’s beautiful is different from another’s.

My wife has a thing for expensive shoes - she loves her Loubie Loos and there’s no point telling her she could get a nice comfy and much cheaper pair from Clarks. She can also afford them.

Same with bikes - some top end bikes are gorgeous, will they make a 52 year old cyclist faster , probably not but they might be fun to ride.

Some of the old classic bikes look awesome too, will they make me faster, probably not but again they would be lovely to ride.

Buy what you want and can afford and let people do the same without the sneering about other’s choices.


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## freiston (15 Jul 2018)

Cuchilo said:


> Just because you cant justify buying something that costs more money than you want to spend doesn't make it emotional or a bragging right . It just means that you dont want to spend money on that thing .





freiston said:


> ??? I can't make sense out of that without changing it to something that makes sense - and then it might not be what you were trying to say.





Cuchilo said:


> That's not my fault .


So conversely if you _can_ justify buying something that costs more money than you want to spend, then it _does_ make it emotional or a bragging right and it _doesn't_ just mean that you don't want to spend the money?


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## screenman (15 Jul 2018)

I would say most people commenting negatively if honest could not afford to buy it out of their disposable income, this may or not be any fault of their own.

A guy down our street keeps 3 dogs and thinks my bikes are a waste of money.


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## freiston (15 Jul 2018)

screenman said:


> I would say most people commenting negatively if honest could not afford to buy it out of their disposable income, this may or not be any fault of their own.
> 
> A guy down our street keeps 3 dogs and thinks my bikes are a waste of money.


and would you say that most people who comment positively and have purchased such a bike, if honest, are trying to legitimise their purchase? This isn't about being able to afford or not but about the justification of the price tag. Your comment does come across as back-handed snobbery.


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## Alan O (15 Jul 2018)

Just a few thoughts on some common British attitudes to expensive things and wealthy people - not reflecting anyone here, just based on my general experiences.

The concept of "More money than sense" seems so quintessentially British - it seems almost as British as commenting on the weather, and it's not a feeling that I've heard expressed in other cultures where I've lived and worked. In fact, I doubt there are many of us who have never used it - I certainly have.

But it can be so wrong in at least two ways.

The most obvious one is the implication that if you have the money to spend on something very expensive and you buy it, you must be stupid. But why? What else is money for than spending on things? That's its only purpose. And if you can comfortably afford a super expensive toy, why is it dumb to buy it?

Secondly, what's actually bad about having more money than sense? Plenty of people have a lot more money than sense while still having a lot of sense. And, conversely, there are people with very little money who still have more money than sense.

Ultimately, if someone has the money to comfortably afford something, and that something is going to give them sufficient pleasure that they'd rather have the something than the money - of course they should buy it. That's the way our capitalist economy works, and it applies as much to the sausages I bought yesterday as to the supercars bought by millionaires.

And I bet we all have weaknesses too, which we would indulge if we could afford it. Jimidh mentioned his wife's love for nice shoes - and I share that. I love classic English and American gentlemen's shoes, and I have about 20 pairs of them (plus various trainers, boots...). Far more shoes than my wife, who doesn't really care for them much. OK, about half of mine are second-hand (second-foot?) vintage shoes, and the most I've ever paid for a pair is about £230 (including import tax from the US - but they were new-old-stock 1960s/70s V-cleat Florsheim Imperial "gunboats"), so nothing close to what some people pay for shoes. But on my income, they are very much an indulgence.

If I unexpectedly acquired a substantial amount of money, would I spend a lot on bikes? Yep, for sure, but not modern carbon ones - I'd love to be able to ride some of the very best old steel classics. I was overtaken by someone riding a beautiful vintage Colnago last summer, and I'm sure I could feel my Raleigh frame shudder in admiration - those things look even better in real life than they do in photos.

As part of my Liverpool heritage, I'd also love to get a nice hand-build Harry Quinn (though not necessarily the lilac one of the song). In their youth, my Dad rode a James Fothergill bike and my Mum had a Bates, and I'd like to be able to find a nice one of each to ride.

But if I won the lottery this week, one of the first things I'd do is phone for an appointment at John Lobb.

More money than sense? I wish!


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## freiston (15 Jul 2018)

Alan O said:


> Just a few thoughts on some common British attitudes to expensive things and wealthy people - not reflecting anyone here, just based on my general experiences.
> 
> The concept of "More money than sense" seems so quintessentially British - it seems almost as British as commenting on the weather, and it's not a feeling that I've heard expressed in other cultures where I've lived and worked. In fact, I doubt there are many of us who have never used it - I certainly have.
> 
> ...


I can sell you an abstract painting by a very talented cat for a few thousand if you want - art critics do have a record of praising the brush strokes of animals so no worries there.


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## screenman (15 Jul 2018)

freiston said:


> and would you say that most people who comment positively and have purchased such a bike, if honest, are trying to legitimise their purchase? This isn't about being able to afford or not but about the justification of the price tag. Your comment does come across as back-handed snobbery.



Not meant to be.


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## Alan O (15 Jul 2018)

freiston said:


> I can sell you an abstract painting by a very talented cat for a few thousand if you want - art critics do have a record of praising the brush strokes of animals so no worries there.


What, do you think I have more money than sense?


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## Tin Pot (15 Jul 2018)

Alan O said:


> What, do you think I have more money than sense?



Imagine having more sense than money, sounds pretty tragic to me.


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## Alan O (15 Jul 2018)

Tin Pot said:


> Imagine having more sense than money, sounds pretty tragic to me.


A tragedy that, sadly, surely afflicts most of us!


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## freiston (15 Jul 2018)

Tin Pot said:


> Imagine having more sense than money, sounds pretty tragic to me.


I dare say that lack shortage of money is often the root of sensible spending.


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## Alan O (15 Jul 2018)

freiston said:


> I dare say that lack of money is often the root of sensible spending.


Sure, but doesn't the possession of money also help determine what's sensible to spend? Surely a sensible level of expenditure depends on how much you have?


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## freiston (15 Jul 2018)

I also have an emperor’s new suit for sale - no one has said a bad word about it!


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## freiston (15 Jul 2018)

Alan O said:


> Sure, but doesn't the possession of money also help determine what's sensible to spend? Surely a sensible level of expenditure depends on how much you have?


More money means you can afford to spend more - it doesn't make a higher price more sensible to pay.


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## Julia9054 (15 Jul 2018)

I am normal. 
I have a normal amount of money. Anyone with less than me is poor, anyone with more than me is too rich.
The things I like to spend my disposable income on (bicycles, shoes, poncey craft ales, eating out) are a good idea and a sensible purchase. 
Things that other people spend their disposable income on that don't interest me (cars, package holidays, designer handbags, football season tickets) are a waste of money.
I am normal (but also unique and special)


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## FishFright (15 Jul 2018)

Alan O said:


> What, do you think I have more money than sense?



No , but I do think you have more shoes than sense =D


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## Alan O (15 Jul 2018)

FishFright said:


> No , but I do think you have more shoes than sense =D


I won't argue with that


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## Alan O (15 Jul 2018)

Julia9054 said:


> I am normal.
> I have a normal amount of money. Anyone with less than me is poor, anyone with more than me is too rich.
> The things I like to spend my disposable income on (bicycles, shoes, poncey craft ales, eating out) are a good idea and a sensible purchase.
> Things that other people spend their disposable income on that don't interest me (cars, package holidays, designer handbags, football season tickets) are a waste of money.
> I am normal (but also unique and special)


I used far more words trying to express the same idea - you have it in a nutshell!


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## Alan O (15 Jul 2018)

freiston said:


> More money means you can afford to spend more - it doesn't make a higher price more sensible to pay.


I don't understand your point here. Do you mean it doesn't make sense to pay a higher price for the same thing? That's obviously true, and nobody is suggesting it. But if you mean having more money doesn't mean it's sensible to consider higher entry prices into a market, then I think that is obviously false.


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## bladesman73 (15 Jul 2018)

I have a mate who spends thousands on bikes/wheels/parts just so that he can feel superior to his mates. Always has to have something more expensive. Albeit this is a chap who I knew from uni who used to tell people how much his clothes cost. He obv has self esteem issues. The takeaway from this is dont buy stuff to impress others, buy it for yourself, and if that means paying 11k for a bike so be it.


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## DCBassman (15 Jul 2018)

bladesman73 said:


> I have a mate who spends thousands on bikes/wheels/parts just so that he can feel superior to his mates. Always has to have something more expensive. Albeit this is a chap who I knew from uni who used to tell people how much his clothes cost. He obv has self esteem issues. The takeaway from this is dont buy stuff to impress others, buy it for yourself, and if that means paying 11k for a bike so be it.


I've met guitarists like that...


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## Drago (15 Jul 2018)

My clothes come from Millets if i'm feeling flush, or I rob scarecrows for the rest.


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## clid61 (15 Jul 2018)

I get frightened when my son shows me his new guitar !


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## Drago (15 Jul 2018)

clid61 said:


> I get frightened when my son shows me his new guitar !



euphemism?


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## clid61 (15 Jul 2018)

Drago said:


> euphemism?


Nope !!! He's a guitarist in a band currently on tour .


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## freiston (15 Jul 2018)

Alan O said:


> I don't understand your point here. Do you mean it doesn't make sense to pay a higher price for the same thing? That's obviously true, and nobody is suggesting it. But if you mean having more money doesn't mean it's sensible to consider higher entry prices into a market, then I think that is obviously false.


I'll elaborate:


Alan O said:


> Sure, but doesn't the possession of money also help determine what's sensible to spend?


It isn't the amount of money you have that determines what is a sensible price to pay (aka "spend").


Alan O said:


> Surely a sensible level of expenditure depends on how much you have?


 Having more money doesn't make a more expensive purchase more sensible - the lack of money can put the most sensible purchase out of reach - sometimes there is a price at below which the product will be crap - if you can't afford that price then you can't afford a sensible purchase of that product. Spending twice as much does not make your purchase twice as sensible.


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## Smokin Joe (15 Jul 2018)

If the amount of money you spend is irrelevant because it is only a fraction of your disposable income then spending an extra ten grand because you like how the manufacturer writes his name on the down tube is a perfectly sensible option. If you have to go into debt to do it, it isn't.


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## freiston (15 Jul 2018)

Smokin Joe said:


> ...spending an extra ten grand because you like how the manufacturer writes his name on the down tube is a perfectly sensible option.


Then your definition of sensible is not the same as mine.


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## screenman (15 Jul 2018)

freiston said:


> Then your definition of sensible is not the same as mine.



Nothing wrong with that.


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## Milkfloat (15 Jul 2018)

bladesman73 said:


> I have a mate who spends thousands on bikes/wheels/parts just so that he can feel superior to his mates. Always has to have something more expensive. Albeit this is a chap who I knew from uni who used to tell people how much his clothes cost. He obv has self esteem issues. The takeaway from this is dont buy stuff to impress others, buy it for yourself, and if that means paying 11k for a bike so be it.



Maybe he just likes nice things?


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## Smokin Joe (15 Jul 2018)

freiston said:


> Then your definition of sensible is not the same as mine.


What we spend on a pair of tyres would feed a child in a third world country for a year. Whether the amount you spend on something is sensible or not is entirely relevant to your wealth.


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## bladesman73 (15 Jul 2018)

Milkfloat said:


> Maybe he just likes nice things?


Its not that. Everytime one of his mates gets something on a par he will then buy the next one up. Hes been it since I met him at uni 20 years ago.


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## screenman (16 Jul 2018)

bladesman73 said:


> Its not that. Everytime one of his mates gets something on a par he will then buy the next one up. Hes been it since I met him at uni 20 years ago.



Have you thought that he might have a problem that he cannot control.


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## mustang1 (16 Jul 2018)

If you want a really light bike, I reckon 4 or 5 grand should do it. this gives you performance benefits.
If you want an expensive bike so you don't look out of place in Beverley Hills, not even an £11k bike will do it. So quite frankly, this is cheap nonsense. I'm not sure why these people waste my time.
I would rather spend that 11k and get a leather-interior upgrade for my Bentley. Pah.

WASTE OF TIME.


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## mustang1 (16 Jul 2018)

raleighnut said:


> £11k on a HiFi, I know people who've spent more than that on an Amplifier.



I know people who spend more than that on speaker cable. It really does sound better. No really... really it does... wait... where are you going?... it has gold... wait.. it has gold caps... yes... 22k carat gold... what do you mean 18k is better... that's not high end... wait... come back... buy these cables darn it!


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## mustang1 (16 Jul 2018)

KneesUp said:


> They're not really comparable though are they, other than both being a means of transport. My car was not £50k to anyone, ever, and certainly not to me, but it has leather seats better than my sofa, it can maintain a constant interior temperature, it can maintain a constant speed, it can play music in at least four different formats, it can navigate to anywhere in Western Europe, it can carry five people and their luggage at over 100mph, it can safely carry and use a hugely volatile fuel, it can illuminate itself at a variety of different brightness levels and can turn the light on automatically in the dark, it can clean it's own windscreen, and wipes it automatically when it rains, it can charge it's own battery, it can lock itself without being touched, it can travel 12,000 miles without anyone having to do any maintenance and has so far covered approximately 5 times the circumference of the earth without any issues. Cars are amazing complicated pieces of engineering that consist of a range of devices that are complicated in their own different way - the electric windows in a car are many times more complicated than an entire bike, for example.
> 
> It seems rather odd to suggest that £11k is cheap for a bike by comparing it to the cost of a machine that is much, much more complicated, created using much, much more material (almost 60% of a cars cost of manufacture is the materials). It's like saying that a McClaren is cheap because the Space Shuttle cost about $200 billion.
> 
> Or, in other words, £11k for some carbon fibre and a few cogs is ridiculous.



This is fantastic!


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## mustang1 (16 Jul 2018)

Smokin Joe said:


> View attachment 419164
> If this was a symphony by Schubert -
> 
> 
> ...



Good analogy.
One of those bikes would get rave reviews in the magazine press though due to the amount of advertising dollars spent at said magazine.


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## simon.r (16 Jul 2018)

Has anyone mentioned the ‘bike as art’ argument yet?

From time to time I will sit in my garage, surrounded by my bikes, crack open a beer, turn the radio on and just enjoy looking at them.

That may not be ‘normal’, but I’d bet there’s plenty of people who do the same sort of thing, but substitute paintings / model railway / stamp collection etc. etc. for bikes.

And as a bonus I get to ride my ‘art’


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## Blue Hills (16 Jul 2018)

bladesman73 said:


> Albeit this is a chap who I knew from uni who used to tell people how much his clothes cost. .


Cripes. If he still does this I'd be tempted to use the info to slyly attach stringed price tags to his sleeves, collars etc.i think you are right with your self esteem issues analysis.


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## Blue Hills (16 Jul 2018)

Milkfloat said:


> Maybe he just likes nice things?


Mm - i think maybe you missed the bit where he appeared to have the need to tell folk how much these nice things cost. That sort of thing is considered dodgy for all sorts of reasons by a lot of folk, including a lot of brits.


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## screenman (16 Jul 2018)

Blue Hills said:


> Cripes. If he still does this I'd be tempted to use the info to slyly attach stringed price tags to his sleeves, collars etc.i think you are right with your self esteem issues analysis.



Have you thought those issues may not be his fault, there are many mental problems out there.


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## Milkfloat (16 Jul 2018)

Blue Hills said:


> Mm - i think maybe you missed the bit where he appeared to have the need to tell folk how much these nice things cost. That sort of thing is considered dodgy for all sorts of reasons by a lot of folk, including a lot of brits.



I prefer not to judge people quite so quickly .


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## Blue Hills (16 Jul 2018)

Milkfloat said:


> I prefer not to judge people quite so quickly .


The post said he did it repeatedly over a large number of years so not a snap judgement.


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## si_c (16 Jul 2018)

Alan O said:


> Ultimately, if someone has the money to comfortably afford something, and that something is going to give them sufficient pleasure that they'd rather have the something than the money - of course they should buy it. That's the way our capitalist economy works, and it applies as much to the sausages I bought yesterday as to the supercars bought by millionaires.



I'd much rather have sausages than a supercar. I know this adds nothing to the conversation, but it is a statement of fact.


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## smutchin (16 Jul 2018)

si_c said:


> I'd much rather have sausages than a supercar



Mmmmm, sausages!


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## bladesman73 (16 Jul 2018)

screenman said:


> Have you thought those issues may not be his fault, there are many mental problems out there.


Tried to address it with him for a long time. However as he feels he is always right I have gotten nowhere.Therefore I have just accepted that he is a bit of a tw@t.


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## bladesman73 (16 Jul 2018)

Milkfloat said:


> I prefer not to judge people quite so quickly .


Ive known him since 1996..hardly a snap judgement


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## bladesman73 (16 Jul 2018)

Blue Hills said:


> Cripes. If he still does this I'd be tempted to use the info to slyly attach stringed price tags to his sleeves, collars etc.i think you are right with your self esteem issues analysis.


There is no other reason for overtly trying to make himself seem better than others than self esteem issues. However he had a stable upbringing in a well off family, wasnt bullied, wasnt pulled down by anyone, so I cant understand why he is like it. Also has a really well paid stable job..on 6 figures.another example we were freewheeling downhill last week and i overtook him.. at the end we stopped and i said that was fast etc, first thing he said was "yeah..my bike is faster than yours, tho yours is fast"...farks sake!!


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## Profpointy (2 Aug 2018)

mgs315 said:


> To be fair my current bike and car both cost me ~£2k so I can’t talk!



Sounds like the sweet spot budget for either !


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## User16625 (2 Aug 2018)

Milkfloat said:


> I prefer not to judge people quite so quickly .



On the contrary, I need to judge people pretty quickly. Not because I want to, but more of protecting myself from harm, annoyance or time wasting. If all I got to go on is their appearance, or a post or 2 on a forum then so be it. But such judgements are not set in stone tho.

One example is when we had a new manager at work. She was a bimbo and I assumed she was gonna be a great big nuisance. Turned out she was alrite.


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## simonali (3 Aug 2018)

Phaeton said:


> Are you sure



I've recently done mine online and the website address is gov.uk/vehicle-*tax*


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