# Why are indicators not popular?



## JoGlo (13 Dec 2011)

Just a little personal research; why do people not use things like glove indicators more often? Is it a design problem with the existing ones or are they just not usual? Should I get some?


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## totallyfixed (14 Dec 2011)

Welcome to the forum, I see you didn't post in The Welcome Mat and that may be why you are being ignored, 'course might be completely wrong, I often am. As to your query, if a pair of well illuminated gloves with a long lasting battery that were functional both as gloves and an indicator came on the market at a reasonable price then I can see their worth in an urban environment at night. I almost never ride in these conditions, do a lot of night riding but very rural so not much use, but anything that helps light up a cyclist has to be a good thing.


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## Shaun (14 Dec 2011)

Quite a lot of winter gloves have reflective logos/piping on them which shows up when you stick your hand out to indicate, and hopefully you're wearing suitable clothing and have appropriate lighting; so I imagine most people don't feel the need for glove-mounted indicators.


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## sabian92 (14 Dec 2011)

And actually probably a lot of drivers probably expect hand signals so if they had flashing lights on, maybe less of us would be ran over then hear the dreaded "Sorry mate, didn't see you".


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## snorri (14 Dec 2011)

I doubt it would be possible to manufacture indicating gloves that would be effective, reliable, rugged, easy to use and at an attractive price. Perhaps technology will make it possible some day.


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## tyred (14 Dec 2011)

Indicators are completely unnecessary. Even BMW stopped fitting them to their cars some time ago.


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## Scilly Suffolk (14 Dec 2011)

If fitted to gloves, then they are a duplication of effort: you would have to stick your hand out to use them which you would be doing anyway.

They would also add bulk and I can't envisage a simple solution.

If they operate automatically from some sort of sensor then you have the problem of them activating at the wrong time or not at all.

If operated by a switch you would need two mounted on either side of the handlebar (to operate the opposite indicator); or one mounted in each glove (perhaps by pressing the thumb and forefinger together) which brings us back to the problem of inopportune use.

With brakes and gears being hand-operated we already have plenty to think of.

Furthermore, gloves are a very personal choice so a whole range of gloves would need to produced or some sort of kit which could be added to an existing pair of gloves; either option would be prohibitively expensive for a relatively small market.


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## JoGlo (14 Dec 2011)

Hi! I do a lot of riding around Manchester busy roads, it occurred to me yesterday that now its getting darker, cars might not be able to see my hand signals as easily. There are a few indicator lights available (amazon, ebay etc), I did wonder why these havent been picked up on.


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## Nantmor (14 Dec 2011)

I think indicators were invented to save drivers from having to open their windows to indicate. At first they were small illuminated semaphore arms which rose from the side of the car. We don't have the problem of being cut off from the outside. Do we really need to follow the motorists' solution to a problem we don't have? Surely an arm stuck out is pretty clear.


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## Scilly Suffolk (14 Dec 2011)

JoGlo said:


> Hi! I do a lot of riding around Manchester busy roads, it occurred to me yesterday that now its getting darker, cars might not be able to see my hand signals as easily. There are a few indicator lights available (amazon, ebay etc), I did wonder why these havent been picked up on.


Plenty of gloves in hi-viz, with reflective trim or even just plain white.

I'd say that if a driver can't see you stick your arm out then they are either too far away to influence your turn or are that distracted/careless they wouldn't see your indicator.

Fancy being a guinea pig? Why not give one a whirl and let us know what you think of it in practice?


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## JoGlo (14 Dec 2011)

I might do that, good plan, will let you know how I find it


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## Scilly Suffolk (14 Dec 2011)

Can you post some links to the ones you're considering please, I'd be interested to see what's available.


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## potsy (14 Dec 2011)

What about something like these for the colder weather?
Wouldn't want indicators myself, if you indicate properly in good time there should be no reason why the drivers can't see you easily, especially with some reflective on the gloves


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## marafi (14 Dec 2011)

I was going to buy some though i thought putting my hand not arm just hand in the direction i want to go expect for going foreward. Incidents occured where peoples arms are hit by cars. Ouchie for them indeed.


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## Dan_h (15 Dec 2011)

tyred said:


> Indicators are completely unnecessary. Even BMW stopped fitting them to their cars some time ago.


 
Now that is out of order, I have a BMW and it has indicators fitted as standard! However I would have to turn them on and off myself so I generally don't bother. If I could afford a chauffeur then I would definitely insist that they used them though!


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## Nigel-YZ1 (15 Dec 2011)

My Beemer has them too. But I thought they were dangerous - every time I switched them on they flashed on and off. Can't risk it if there's dodgy wiring in there.


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## Dan_h (15 Dec 2011)

Nigel-YZ1 said:


> My Beemer has them too. But I thought they were dangerous - every time I switched them on they flashed on and off. Can't risk it if there's dodgy wiring in there.


 
I thought flashing lights were only legal on pedal cycles anyway...


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## Mozzy (15 Dec 2011)

tyred said:


> Indicators are completely unnecessary. Even BMW stopped fitting them to their cars some time ago.


Brilliant. But you forgot that Mercedes too have stopped including them.


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## Nigel-YZ1 (15 Dec 2011)

And even if fitted to any other make of vehicle they don't work during left turning on roundabouts. It's like handbrakes in traffic jams, they're an optional accessory that you stop using after the driving test.


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## Chris-H (16 Dec 2011)

Mozzy said:


> Brilliant. But you forgot that Mercedes too have stopped including them.


And dont forget Audi too.


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## potsy (16 Dec 2011)

tyred said:


> Indicators are completely unnecessary. Even BMW stopped fitting them to their cars some time ago.


I saw a BMW this morning that not only had indicators, was actually using them 
Pity he didn't buy the model that also comes with lights


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## cyberknight (17 Dec 2011)

Another reason not to use bike mounted indicators (not gloves ) is that generally the lights are to close together and can easily be confused with normal bike lights.


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## classic33 (18 Dec 2011)

Jimmy The Whiskers said:


> If fitted to gloves, then they are a duplication of effort: you would have to stick your hand out to use them which you would be doing anyway.
> 
> They would also add bulk and I can't envisage a simple solution.
> 
> ...


 
Something like these?
http://www.shinyshiny.tv/2006/11/glove_mounted_i.html


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## Old Plodder (6 Feb 2012)

If you want your hand/arm seen at night, put reflective bands around your wrists.
Because you are moving they look as if they flash at times. But these require no battery or wiring & are, in my opinion,
a superior solution. I have actually used the reflective bands that equestrians fit to the horses hooves; available in different materials.


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## Patrick Gibson (21 May 2012)

Hi Guys, 

I have produced an indicating system that uses an accelerometer combined with a tilt sensor to activate a flashing amber light on the side of the glove. It's a very inexpensive system which uses a program I wrote loaded up onto a microchip on the back of the glove. This program constantly reads outputs from the accelerometer and tilt sensor to determine whether the riders arm is in the correct position. This negates any false 'triggers' which would ultimately make the rider less safe, thus defeating the object of the design. 

There are lots of statistics available from various sites which elude to the idea that an indicating system for cyclists would make a difference, not only saving lives but also getting more people to ride a bike by giving them a greater presence on the road at night.

There are a few products currently available but each one has flaws:

>> the signal can't be seen by traffic from all directions - very important as it's not just road users _behind _the rider but also in front and from the left and right)
>> the automatic signal is activated falsely - ie reaching for water bottle/waving at someone/scratching head!
>> bicycle mounted products - requires time and effort to fit to the bike/the signal itself isn't very far away from the front or rear light making it difficult to distinguish which direction the rider intends to turn/a lot of these are also 'button/switch' operated adding an extra task for the rider which, in the beginning at least, reduces the riders concentration on their environment.

The correct method to indicate a change of direction, in the UK and most other countries, when riding a bicycle is to extend the arm in the direction the rider wishes to turn. I know this seems obvious but this provides justification for the placement of the indicating signal and also means that a motion sensitive trigger, one that works well, is perfect for activating the signal. 

I have tested the system with a local riding club and also less frequent riders with very positive feedback. One issue that did come back from testing was that users didn't trust that the signal had been activated and were looking down their arm to check it was flashing. This is obviously not safe. To overcome this I am currently adding a small vibrator which gives the rider tactile feedback without them having to check it.

The whole system could easily be produced, including rechargeable battery, for less than £6 and be built into gloves or in a module that can be attached to existing gloves.

I would be grateful for anyones thoughts/criticism at this stage as you all obviously have opinions on the topic. For a working demo of the system please see the link below:

CYCLE INDICATING SYSTEM

Thanks


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## Andrew_Culture (21 May 2012)

I'd cheerfully give them a go.


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## Mr Haematocrit (30 May 2012)

Patrick I would suggest that your device suffers from the same issues you mention of others. The light on the glove is so small it would not have full visability from all angles, the images displayed on the website showing the activation proceedure is similar to the motion required to get a drink imho


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## Mr Haematocrit (30 May 2012)

if your interested in flashing lights near your gloves, why not simply use led arm bands available from amazon, if rethinking how cyclists indicate movement you should review the entire issue imho. Taking your hand of the bars makes braking more difficault and bike control more challenging for some which causes difficaulty in completing manouvers safely.
Bolting lights on your hands is a solution which does not address the issues some face when changing direction by bike.


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## MrJamie (30 May 2012)

If i decided that it was worth my while to purchase, id definitely want the module over the glove. I have various cheapy fingerless gloves, full finger gloves, motorcycle gloves and ski gloves depending on the cold. Some kind of stretchy lycra overglove rather than a strap might be good. Personally i think id probably prefer a switch between thumb and index finger than a gesture trigger.

In your video the bike has quite minimal lighting and from the side no lighting at all, presumably to make the indicator stand out more. My initial thought is to question how much it would stand out against my existing lights and other road users. It looks like its emitting less light to the camera than is being reflected off your bare shins by the car accross the road. Id also imagine most people likely to go for something like this would have substaintial bike lighting for it to compete against.


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## Davidc (30 May 2012)

All too much complication, weight and complexity.

At night I enhance my standard arm signals with reflective slap-wraps.

I've never had a problem being seen indicating, anywhere from central London to Exmoor, using my arms. I'd take a huge amount of persuading to part with money for any of the ideas presented.


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## tyred (20 Jun 2012)

Something else that's occurred to me. What are the chances of getting the majority of cyclists to fit indicators when a worrying amount of cyclists don't even bother to use a headlamp or tail lamp?


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## classic33 (20 Jun 2012)

Has the law changed with regards the colour of the flashing lights that can be fitted to a pedal cycle.
I used to have a pair of motorcycle indicators fitted to one bike until informed that they were actually illegal. Thats over 20 years ago, so things may have changed.

With glove mounted systems, the light needs to be visible from the front as well as the rear. Try riding, wearing gloves with a small pebble in the palm & you'll get an idea of what it might feel like.
Bike mounted systems would require the same forwards & rearwards visibilty, however they can't be mounted on any part of the frame that may turn. So any system used cannot use the forks or handle bars as a mounting option.

As for getting them fitting I'm with tyred on this. When people can't be bothered fitting & using the lights they are legally required to, what cance have we of getting them to fit indicators.


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## Globalti (21 Jun 2012)

Only the poster above seems to have taken account of the fact that, as for road markings, signage and traffic signals, there are established standards for vehicle lighting in relation to brightness, flash rate, distance apart and from the ground etc. 

I can't see any government wanting to change the regulations to allow a few nutters to fit flashing lights to their gloves. 

Next?


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## byegad (21 Jun 2012)

A blinking light needs to be well off the centre line of a vehicle to be perceived as a signal flasher.
The light needs to be bright.
The battery needs to last well.
The whole system needs to weigh very little.

These things make designing an effective, light and cheap system and getting it to market very difficult,

On the whole sticking an arm out is good, cheap and clearly a signal.


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## byegad (21 Jun 2012)

Globalti said:


> Only the poster above seems to have taken account of the fact that, as for road markings, signage and traffic signals, there are established standards for vehicle lighting in relation to brightness, flash rate, distance apart and from the ground etc.
> 
> I can't see any government wanting to change the regulations to allow a few nutters to fit flashing lights to their gloves.
> 
> Next?


Well C&U reg's apply to motor vehicles mostly. The ones for cycle are very few and there's nothing saying you can't fit yellow flashing lights to a glove or stick and fit it to your bike.


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## Dan B (21 Jun 2012)

Globalti said:


> I can't see any government wanting to change the regulations to allow a few nutters to fit flashing lights to their gloves.


As far as I'm aware there are few or no regulations forbidding the use of any lights you care to use attached to your body. The regulations cover lights attached to vehicles not to their operators

(That said, I'm sure the use of flashing blue lights is still frowned on no matter where you attach them)


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## stoatsngroats (21 Jun 2012)

In your video, the cyclist has his hand out throughout the approach, and the right turn, without stopping. 

I can't imagine coming to a halt, being stationary, and starting away again all whilst continuing to hold out your hand. If you (like I) would return the hand to the bars, particularly during the starting away again, your indication is cancelled, or, at the very least, no longer displayed away from the body.

On a left turn, which generally are tighter turns, I'd imagine even less time for the indication to be displayed.

Well done for the idea, but I can't help thinking that there really isn't much point - maybe like wearing 2 cycle helmets, for added protection.....


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## classic33 (22 Jun 2012)

Retro reflective material used in place of any form of actual lighting (on the hands) would stand a better chance of being seen than a small(single) LED light & uses the power of the lights from the other vehicles lights for it to be effective.

The number of drivers who look no further than where their own lights show the road can be suprising at times, especially on an unlit stretch of road. They will have grown up with street lighting & are unsure of what to do when faced with an unlit section of road.


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