# Why is one groupset better than the other?



## Xiorell (20 Jun 2011)

just wondering what the thing is with different Groupsets, following on from another thread



Now, forget all that racing lark for a moment and the super serious guys and those who like to zoom around like crazy folk, that's all good and I can understand why you might want a really good expensive groupset.



But on the average rider side of things, those who like to get out when they can, 20miles here, 40 there, maybe a bit of social club stuff etc etc. Those who like to go fast when they feel a sudden burst of energy, but also like to chill out at 12mph on a flat country road.
Why would that person want a Dura Ace setup, or Ultegra, or high end SRAM Red gear... what difference would stuff like that make to said person, over a sora/tiagra setup up or 2300 kit ??


For example my Hybrid has Tourney kit, as I understand it this is the lowest tier of Shimano mtb kit. My MTB has Deore XT, which I believe is somewhat higher up the ladder. I actually can't tell any difference between the two. Both shift up or down as and when I want, both do so smoothly.



So to me, why would I want to go putting XTR stuff on an MTB or Ultegra or better stuff on a roadbike? What would that give the average person, that an Atlus setup or Sora kit wouldn't?


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## HLaB (20 Jun 2011)

The only difference I can say I notice with some shifter is that they are more comfortable performance wise I don't think there is much in it (well as much as I can tell) maybe a higher spec is slightly lighter (but how much lighter can you make something thats small in the first place), smoother and more durable. Of my bikes sora doesn't have very comfortable hoods and I can't change gears in the drops but it does the job just as well as the 105/Ultegra on another bike.


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## aberal (20 Jun 2011)

I moved down from a Shimano 105 front shifter to a Tiagra on my road bike and the difference in the feel of the shifting action is definitely noticeable. Both do the same thing of course, but the Tiagra is clunkier, less smooth. I also have an Ultegra front shifter on my other bike and it is also noticeably slicker. But I seeriously doubt if anyone could tell the difference between Tiagra, 105 and Ultegra front deraileurs, but I'd sure that there are good technical reasons for the difference. The more expensive tends to be made of lighter, stronger, more durable parts - metal rather than plastic, fancier alloys, better machined parts - all of which tends to come at a price.


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## Smokin Joe (20 Jun 2011)

Most people would not notice a performance difference between groupset, particularly in the 105 -Dura Ace or Veloce - Super Record end of the market. They all work faultlessly.

People spend a fortune on top end groupsets when it makes bugger all difference to there speed - riding it just feels better.


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## Xiorell (20 Jun 2011)

Smokin Joe said:


> People spend a fortune on top end groupsets when it makes bugger all difference to there speed - riding it just feels better.




A perfect explanation. And a great Avatar.

So in other words one looks good when you show your mates but both do the job to a similar degree, to the average joe at least


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## Svendo (20 Jun 2011)

I believe there is more difference in the performance of brake calipers across the ranges, and especially with 3rd party affairs (tektro, bianchi own brand etc.) although this opinion is based as much on magazine reviews as my own experience.
I've used Sora, tiagra with 105 rear, Dura Ace 7800 and 7900. Shifting functionality doesn't vary massively, but does get better, especially between tiagra and lower and 105 and above I think. My Sora worked fine, but needed more adjustment and attention, and the rear got 'baggy' on the main pivot before I trashed it getting carelessly run over by a driver.
Equally for a while I had my old DA 7800 on my new Storck, but with an Ultegra FD (didn't want to splurge on a braze on 7800 FD when I was going to be getting 7900 soon anyway.) and the difference in front shifting quality was all but unnoticable.
The tiagra with 105 RD and Tektro Brakes is depenable and reliable on my minimally maintained commuter (bonus prize for guessing the bike from the groupset spec!)


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## smokeysmoo (20 Jun 2011)

I have two bikes with full Dura-Ace 7900, one with full 2011 Ultegra and I've also had full 105 black on a Ribble 7005 Audax bike, and TBH the difference is minimal IMHO. (bear in mind I have never raced or generally ridden in anger). 

Yes DA is smoother, but not so much smoother as to warrant the extortianate price difference. The main factor seems to be weight, (the more you spend the less you get  ). 

I've been incredibly lucky to be able to buy bikes with DA, but that said I wouldn't shell out for a DA gruppo as an upgrade, 105/Ultegra yes, but DA is just not worth it IMHO, (at least not for the vast majority).

Each time they bring out an updated groupset it's marketed as being better than the one before it, (and why wouldn't it be?), so IMO a new 105 gruppo picks up the baton from the current Ultegra, new Ultegra imitates current DA, and DA just gets a bit lighter, a bit more pleasing to the eye, (apparently), and a lot more expensive  .

I actually prefer the slightly older DA stuff to the current stuff as well. I used to have a Trek Madone 5.5, (circa 2006 with aero seat tube), and the DA on that I felt was infinately smoother than the DA7900 on my current bikes. As for aesthetics, yes you could see the crank bolts whereas you can't on the newer DA, but overall I think the older stuff looks far classier than the new stuff does. 

In fact, a few months after I foolishly sold the Madone, I went to see if the store had any left, and when I walked in I saw a load of Madone framesets hanging on the wall, (and no built up bikes on the shop floor!). I asked the guy why he'd stripped them and it was simply a question of demand, all the customers who enquired about DA wanted the 'older' gear as they preffered it to the new stuff, so he stripped the Madones made some money and probably had a great holiday that year  

When my DA needs replacing will I replace it with DA, definately not new DA. If I can pick a mech up on a forum/fleabay, perhaps, if not then I'll be replacing it with Ultegra.


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## Banjo (20 Jun 2011)

I have Deore on my hybrid for commuting shopping etc. its been amazingly reloiable in 5000 miles in 2 years . Doesnt get pampered still on original chain and cassette.Bike also gets taken up mountains and piled high with touring stuff now and thern. Has also been well overloaded with shopping and generally abused.


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## TheCharityShop (21 Jun 2011)

I used Shimano acera rear derailleurs, alivio front, and a bog standard shimano crank for 6 years and had to replace the parts on average every 6 months, they just wore down so quickly and the shifting wasnt very precise
i now luckily have xt cranks, sram rear derailleur and it makes the world of difference, solid reliable shifting, no give in the mechs like before and loking like a long life expectancy as it will cost a fortune when i next have to replace


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## marzjennings (21 Jun 2011)

For me the difference is really noticeable over time. Yes new, it'll be tough to tell the difference between X7 and XX (I'm a SRAM guy), but the higher end components are made better, have user replaceable parts, can be stripped down and cleaned or repaired (not riveted together), in general lighter and work better in adverse conditions. I've made XO and XTR parts last years. I can't say I've done the say with low end parts.













There's a 4 fold difference in price between the two mech's above, but you can see the rivets on the top one and C clips and bolts on the lower one. You can keep the expensive one running longer (maybe 4 times longer) than the cheaper one.
There's also 50 grams difference in weight.


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## 3tyretrackterry (21 Jun 2011)

shimano alivio 8 spd on my commuter with trigger shifters works great minimal maintenance lasts approx 18 months -2yrs before i change cassette chain and crankset last RD and FD lasted 10 yrs BB 5yrs. all items get minimal maintenance ie oiled regularly cleaned once in a blue moon. i am quite fussy about them running correctly if i hear a click or creak i get onto it and locate and fix asap.
On my trike i have 105 kit with twist shifters and i cannot tell the difference and the trike gets looked after much better.


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## Globalti (21 Jun 2011)

I have 105 shifters on mine and I'm really beginning to hate them, the rear is sluggish going up and down despite me changing all the cables and the front throws the chain across with a loud clank, so much that it used to drop off the small cog about 1 in 10 changes until I fitted a K-Edge device. I'm thinking of upgrading to Ultegra tbh.

Come to think of it, I have got an Ultegra rear derailleur - I wonder if it's somehow incompatible with the 105 shifter?


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## Jezston (21 Jun 2011)

I've not much experience of higher end gears, but have ridden on Sora, Tiagra, Deore and SIS-whatever. Sora shifters are the work of the devil and the SIS front derailleur on my hybrid is the shonkiest piece of crap I've ever had to deal with. Have got 105 front hub and brake on my 3-speed and they seem to work fine - wish they were shiny silver rather than gunmetal grey though!

Question for those with the higher end groupsets - do the cassettes last longer or not as long as the cheaper, heavier cassettes? Just wondering that in the case of products where weight would be more of a consideration than long term use that they might wear out quicker?


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## Moodyman (21 Jun 2011)

I find mid-range stuff work better and not need any adjustment vs bottom-end stuff which works but needs more TLC.


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## Cletus Van Damme (21 Jun 2011)

I am fairly new to cycling. The bike I do most of my riding on, my commuting hybrid has Tiagra mechs and Shimano SL-R440 9 speed shifters. At first I found the gears a little clunky changing gear under load. After posting on here somebody advised me that I should not be mashing the gears in under load (after all you do not do it in a car). Now I let off the power for a fraction of a second whilst changing and I really cannot complain at all, it is much smoother. Whether higher end gears make changing under load better or not? I do not know, but I do not feel the need for it anyway. 

My road bike a Secteur sport has a Tiagra/Sora mix. The front mech and the shifters are Sora (9 speed), and the rear mech is Tiagra. I find the gears pretty good on this bike, but the shifters irritate me a little. Not in the way that they shift gear, but the thumb shifters. So I have decided to upgrade the shifters to Tiagra and get some better wheels on the C2W scheme. The price of the shifters is stupidly high, but as it is on the C2W scheme I can stomach it, and I did not want to pay too much for some scratched ones from a well known auction site. The bike was a bargain being a 2010 model, so I do not mind spending on it. I had toyed with the idea of getting a 105 triple groupset, but the price versus my ability put me off. Also there are a few gears that I do not use now so why do I need another.


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## lulubel (21 Jun 2011)

I always think that, up to a point, there are noticeable improvements in ease of use or how smoothly it does the job. After that, you're paying a lot more money for a very minimal difference.

I had my sora shifters upgraded to tiagra when I bought my bike because I wanted to be able to change gear on the drops, but with hindsight I wish I'd upgraded to 105 because most people I've spoken to say they're smoother, and tiagra is a bit clunky.


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## Paulus (21 Jun 2011)

I have 3 different groupsets on my bikes. Tiagra which works very well, 105 on another which works very well but I would say smoother when changing gears, and Campag Veloce on another which is on a par with Tiagra. I would say also that when talking to a LBS owner that the higher spec components are generally of better quality materials and machining so last that bit longer.


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