# Di2 good or bad?



## nick.b (27 Aug 2012)

For arguments sake, lets ignore Dura-ace di2, as its crazy expensive..

ive been contemplating the pros and cons and wondering if its worth the upgrade over mech Ultegra.

Cons
Ultegra Di2 weighs in at 200g-ish over ultegra
about £700 more expensive.
cant shift multiple gears at once.
possibility of electrical parts failing whist out.

Pros
hoods are nicers imo
easy 1click shifting encourages changing gear more often

from what i can work out, you dont have to have a bike that has internal cables, just get a differnt cable set.

Whats your take?


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## black'n'yellow (27 Aug 2012)

nick.b said:


> easy 1click shifting encourages changing gear more often


 
Just a small point, but 'changing gear more often' is not the same as 'changing gear as often as you need'....pretty much all modern shifters will do that in one click anyway, electric or not.

The rear shifter works in an identical fashion to a standard cable shifter - you click the lever (or button) and it changes up or down, so no difference and no advantage. The only benefit I could see when I tried it was the ability to 'powershift' up from the small ring to the big ring while the chain is under heavy load, like it might be in a sprint over the top of a steep climb. It is very difficult - if not impossible - to do this on a manual setup without backing off a bit on the pedals. But then I realised that I've never actually had to do that in any situation I've ever been in.

Then add into the equation the fact that the only person I know with an electronic gear set has had nothing but trouble with it (battery & power loss issues, although I believe it's working ok now) - and I come to the conclusion that I will hang on to my reliable and no-less-effective SRAM Force stuff for a while longer.

That's not so say it won't improve and it won't catch on though, I'm sure it will....


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## nick.b (27 Aug 2012)

agreed, i really cant see the need for Di2 ,if anything they seem worse in some ways, but i would like to like them


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## Drago (27 Aug 2012)

What are the benefits? I've never ridden them do would be interested if shifting is any quicker, smoother or more reliable.


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## nick.b (27 Aug 2012)

Drago said:


> What are the benefits? I've never ridden them do would be interested if shifting is any quicker, smoother or more reliable.


 
thats what im asking, seems noone really has any experiance of them, alth the auto adjusting mech's seem nice.

i was hoping to strike up an interesting debate


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## Sittingduck (27 Aug 2012)

Auto trim on the front mech?


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## smokeysmoo (27 Aug 2012)

It's supposed to be the dogs danglies, but I guess you know that already. Extremely reliable, self trimming, (no chain rub), long battery life, and in the event the battery does drain it apparently shuts down systematically, in other words it shifts the chain onto the small ring and shuts down the front mech so the rear mech can still be operated for as long as possible, all clever stuff.

While it's a few years away I can almost guarantee my next bike will have Di2


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## nick.b (27 Aug 2012)

smokeysmoo said:


> It's supposed to be the dogs danglies, but I guess you know that already. Extremely reliable, self trimming, (no chain rub), long battery life, and in the event the battery does drain it apparently shuts down systematically, in other words it shifts the chain onto the small ring and shuts down the front mech so the rear mech can still be operated for as long as possible, all clever stuff.
> 
> While it's a few years away I can almost guarantee my next bike will have Di2


 

nice feature, didnt know it did that


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## Drago (27 Aug 2012)

It's supposed to be very reliable from what I've read.

As the price comes down and it becomes more mainstream I'd have no objection to having it, if only for the bragging rights.


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## Mr Haematocrit (27 Aug 2012)

smokeysmoo said:


> It's supposed to be the dogs danglies, but I guess you know that already. Extremely reliable, self trimming, (no chain rub), long battery life, and in the event the battery does drain it apparently shuts down systematically, in other words it shifts the chain onto the small ring and shuts down the front mech so the rear mech can still be operated for as long as possible, all clever stuff.


 
Totally correct info.  It's also worth noting that there is a battery status check mode, if you press all shifters at the same time the junction box displays a red or green light to show the battery status. When you get the red light you have approximately 500 miles worth of charge in the battery, so you get plenty of warning.. If the battery goes flat its only one persons fault for not checking imho you can't lay blame on the system.

One functionality I like of Di2 which is often forgotten when discussing the pro's and cons is the ability to have additional shifters where you like, I currently have additional sprint shifters on my Venge and previously had bar top shifters.
Di2 can also be modified, I have done internal seat post battery conversions, additional shifters and powered lights from the Di2 battery source.

I have the Di2 diagnostics and have learnt a lot about it, the biggest issue you see is crap installations and people not understanding the technological differences between Di2 and Ui2.. People are now running the system on MTB's without issue which goes to show how durable it really is.
It's a game changer imho, if you do not get it, or see the need for it, you have not lived with Di2, once you do you will not go back.


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## NotthatJasonKenny (27 Aug 2012)

V for Vengedetta said:


> Totally correct info.  It's also worth noting that there is a battery status check mode, if you press all shifters at the same time the junction box displays a red or green light to show the battery status. When you get the red light you have approximately 500 miles worth of charge in the battery, so you get plenty of warning.. If the battery goes flat its only one persons fault for not checking imho you can't lay blame on the system.
> 
> One functionality I like of Di2 which is often forgotten when discussing the pro's and cons is the ability to have additional shifters where you like, I currently have additional sprint shifters on my Venge and previously had bar top shifters.
> Di2 can also be modified, I have done internal seat post battery conversions, additional shifters and powered lights from the Di2 battery source.
> ...



I'm 99% sure my next bike will be Ui2 so I'm interested to hear what it is 'to get' and what the 'need' is? Also, what in practise is the difference between the two?

I've heard about the ability to shift under load which sounds good except in reality how often do you think that is an issue?

The auto trimming sounds a great feature too!

What else makes it worth having?


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## Mr Haematocrit (28 Aug 2012)

nick.b said:


> ive been contemplating the pros and cons and wondering if its worth the upgrade over mech Ultegra.
> 
> Cons
> Ultegra Di2 weighs in at 200g-ish over ultegra *<------- you can reduce this greatly with an internal seat post battery as you lose the weight of the batter mount and battery case.*
> ...


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## nick.b (28 Aug 2012)

Great feedback,and some very interesting points, thankyou V


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## Mr Haematocrit (28 Aug 2012)

NotthatJasonKenny said:


> I'm 99% sure my next bike will be Ui2 so I'm interested to hear what it is 'to get' and what the 'need' is? Also, what in practise is the difference between the two?
> 
> I've heard about the ability to shift under load which sounds good except in reality how often do you think that is an issue?
> 
> ...


 
The ability to shift under load is not a major advantage for me personally although I must admit that I do enjoy coming to a halt with my friends behind me on a hill and placing all the standard shifters under load, watching them panic in the wrong gear and shifting quickly to get away 
The biggest advantage for me is simply how slick it is which makes changing a non issue on either the front or back.. its so easy to live with.When you combine this ease with the ability to add additional shifters where you want on the bike, it becomes so convenient.
The auto trimming you just take for granted after a while.

Without doubt people say the Dura-Ace Di2 is better (will call it Di2 from this point) than Ultegra (will call it Ui2 from this point) however this is not totally correct. The Dura-Ace cassette is better than what comes with some Ui2 bikes and this drastically effects the slickness, change this and the systems feel very much the same.
Technologically speaking Di2 is easier to modify as you can just rip out components and replace them as such if you wish to modify its a better starting point.
Ui2 is technologically better and feels more modular from using the CANbus standard. The wiring is dual core on Ui2 rather than quad core which renders the systems incompatible.
The Ui2 electric has a signal modulated over the dc supply line and you can not simply replace the battery for example. You require a small circuit board from the components which feature a chip for the system to recognize the custom component.
You can mod Ui2 but its just a bit more tricky than Di2... Which ever way you go the important thing to note is that the systems are not compatible with one another.

Both are great systems though and very slick


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## Mr Haematocrit (28 Aug 2012)

Forgot to mention as well, when modifying Ui2 the only manner in which you can obtain the small circuit board and chip required by the system is to break it out of a standard component. This can make modding Ui2 more expensive than Di2 as you do not have second hand parts to sell on generally.


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## NotthatJasonKenny (28 Aug 2012)

The modding is mainly adding stuff to the battery and extra shifters?


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## smokeysmoo (28 Aug 2012)

I hope V for Vengedetta doesn't mind me nicking his image, but this shows the sprint buttons installed on V's Venge.


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## Mr Haematocrit (28 Aug 2012)

NotthatJasonKenny said:


> The modding is mainly adding stuff to the battery and extra shifters?


 
The vast majority is hiding the ugly arse battery inside the frame, doing in bike charging and shifters. On occassion you will see lights powered from the battery and things like phone chargers. These latter mods however are only really feasible after the seatpost battery mod, simply because when you do this you have the option to increase/decrease battery capacity to reduce the need to charge for longer periods or to reduce weight further.


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## Mr Haematocrit (28 Aug 2012)

Though I would post some custom shifters to add to this thread,
disclaimer - not my work 

1) unoffical sprint buttons. (I run the Shimano buttons myself)



2) Bar top shifters (cat eye buttons)



3) hand bike shift buttons


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## Mr Haematocrit (28 Aug 2012)

There are loads of people doing some really cool stuff with Di2, ive seen it with campy brakes and on a range of different bikes for which it was not intended.


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## CopperCyclist (28 Aug 2012)

I'm confused with the comment of 'can't shift multiple gears at once'? Mine can? Every time I change front ring, a quick triple shift on the right shifter gives me an instant and perfect adjustment? It'll shift as fast as I can hit the button!

My personal finding is that, yep, it's fantastic, for all the reasons already covered and all the reasons made obvious. Is it worth the heft price jump from normal Ultegra... probably not! This isn't me dissing the system, I love it and I WOULD get it again, however if you are focused purely on value for money, you don't get £700 more for your money, simply due to the fact that standard Ultegra gears are excellent anyway! If you can accept the price increase and are more concerned about 'the perfect bike' than 'what can I get for my cash', then go for it.


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## Mr Haematocrit (28 Aug 2012)

CopperCyclist said:


> I'm confused with the comment of 'can't shift multiple gears at once'? Mine can? Every time I change front ring, a quick triple shift on the right shifter gives me an instant and perfect adjustment? It'll shift as fast as I can hit the button!.


 
On Di2 and Ui2 every time you press the shifter it changes one gear at a time, you can not for example go from second to forth if you desire without going through the gears in between. I totally agree with you in as much as if you tap the shifter quickly it changes gears as fast as I can manually, but the fact remains it does not actually go from the gear you are in to the gear you have chosen without going through all the gears in between. This for me personally is a mute point as I do not experience this as an issue in real world usage due to the speed of function. It seems to be generally used by people wishing to discredit the technology or suggest that EPS is better as that does multiple shifts (the latest Di2 release does multiple shifts so most certainly makes this a mute point)


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## Rando (28 Aug 2012)

CopperCyclist said:


> I'm confused with the comment of 'can't shift multiple gears at once'? Mine can? Every time I change front ring, a quick triple shift on the right shifter gives me an instant and perfect adjustment? It'll shift as fast as I can hit the button!
> 
> My personal finding is that, yep, it's fantastic, for all the reasons already covered and all the reasons made obvious. Is it worth the heft price jump from normal Ultegra... probably not! This isn't me dissing the system, I love it and I WOULD get it again, however if you are focused purely on value for money, you don't get £700 more for your money, simply due to the fact that standard Ultegra gears are excellent anyway! If you can accept the price increase and are more concerned about 'the perfect bike' than 'what can I get for my cash', then go for it.


 
How about when the price difference is £300. The bike I am looking at next is available with standard ultegra and Di2 .
Still a fair amount £300 but much closer now than the original difference. So tempted by it !


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## CopperCyclist (28 Aug 2012)

Rando said:


> How about when the price difference is £300. The bike I am looking at next is available with standard ultegra and Di2 .
> Still a fair amount £300 but much closer now than the original difference. So tempted by it !



No question for me at that price point! Go for it


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## Mr Haematocrit (28 Aug 2012)

I would not buy a bike without it now, im a lazy bugger and push button shifting is as easy as it gets... Im just hoping they make an automatic in the future


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## MacB (28 Aug 2012)

V for Vengedetta said:


> There are loads of people doing some really cool stuff with Di2, ive seen it with campy brakes and on a range of different bikes for which it was not intended.


 
it is interesting and I think the biggest point is the one you've mentioned about being able to have multiple shifters. I expect that eventually it'll be wireless and you can stick as many shift buttons on the bike as you like. I know Shimano are also bringing out an electronic shifter for the Alfine 11. You can already get a Rohloff version from an independent manufacturer in Australia called Shiftezy.


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## Rando (28 Aug 2012)

CopperCyclist said:


> No question for me at that price point! Go for it


 
Even if on an Ali frame bike ? Or spend the same money on standard Ultegra with Carbon frame ?


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## sabian92 (28 Aug 2012)

Am I the only one who finds this sort of battery powered gear change thing next to pointless? I'm not having a dig - i'm genuinely staggered at the price of this for what seems to be no advantage.

I assume you still have to adjust things and replacing a battery is something else to remember. What if you run out of batteries on a club run in the countryside with no batteries on you?

I'll stick to my manual Sora setup, thank you very much


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## oldfatfool (28 Aug 2012)

When I looked it a Ui2 set up in store one thing that concerned me was the size of the std button if wearing winter gloves. I can see the advantages though, when I have been in the saddle for 6 hours, only really working the rear shifter, my left hand can become quite weak/numb from inactivity.

When they develop it to run on a triple I will seriously consider it.


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## gavintc (28 Aug 2012)

sabian92 said:


> Am I the only one who finds this sort of battery powered gear change thing next to pointless? I'm not having a dig - i'm genuinely staggered at the price of this for what seems to be no advantage.
> 
> I assume you still have to adjust things and replacing a battery is something else to remember. What if you run out of batteries on a club run in the countryside with no batteries on you?
> 
> I'll stick to my manual Sora setup, thank you very much


 
Unsurprisingly, cycling is a very broad church. Some will savour the cost cutting benefits, others with different attitudes will enjoy the latest technology or equipment. Most are probably in the middle ground. That is not to criticise, but as others have stated, this is a system not for those looking to save a few pounds and get by with a system that will work fine, just not perfectly. Personally, if I could afford it, I would probably fit it. But, a change of life with a new job, means that I need to consider major expenses.


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## Mr Haematocrit (28 Aug 2012)

sabian92 said:


> I assume you still have to adjust things and replacing a battery is something else to remember. What if you run out of batteries on a club run in the countryside with no batteries on you?


 
I brought my Venge January this year and have not asjusted the front of rear derailer during this time. I have charged my battery once since owning the bike, Sky have also stated that they can do the tour without needing to recharge the battery, they only charge it in the final week for reasurance.
As previously stated the system also has a battery status check and even when you get the red light you have 500 miles on average usage.
One of my Di2 bikes has had no maintence for 11 months and the battery has not been charged during this time even though it is regulary ridden, have you made any adjustment to your shifting or derailers during this time?
The battery is not an issue at all as anyone who runs Di2 will telll you.


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## Mr Haematocrit (28 Aug 2012)

oldfatfool said:


> When they develop it to run on a triple I will seriously consider it.


 
This already exists, its a aftermarket kit by k-edge called ki2 and was designed for MTB's however the modified front derailler works on tripples.

www.ki2bike.com for more details.


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## Smokin Joe (28 Aug 2012)

I don't know why people think a battery that needs re-charging after six months minimum is a problem. We all seem to manage lugging mobile phones around that need a charge every two to three days.

And what if the battery does run out? You've got to get home on a single speed, people have cycled round the world on one gear.


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## jdtate101 (28 Aug 2012)

I see the two main advantages of Di2 over mech is:

1) it shifts cleaner under heavy power, which is important for the pros as they can generate loads of watts. 

2) it can self trim allowing for perfect shifts and less chance for a chain drop, again very important in the pro peloton. 

As for the advantages for non pros I guess the self trim would be they winner for me. 

Never tried a Di2 rig yet, but a mate has a UDi2 bike I might have a Pootle on one day.


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## BigTam (28 Aug 2012)

Well have just had my first decent run out on my Merida Scultura Evo 905 Di2, 30 miles, well impressed, smooth shifting, under any load and double shifting no issue what so ever, its the future


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## Drago (28 Aug 2012)

You guys have convinced me! It'll be in my spec list for my next bike for sure.

Looking at Shimanos website it would seem Di2 isn't offered in the UK at the moment, only the Ui2.


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## black'n'yellow (28 Aug 2012)

Drago said:


> Looking at Shimanos website it would seem Di2 isn't offered in the UK at the moment, only the Ui2.


 
of course it's available in the UK....


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## Mr Haematocrit (28 Aug 2012)

Drago said:


> Looking at Shimanos website it would seem Di2 isn't offered in the UK at the moment, only the Ui2.


 
This is the impression which Shimano seem to give out at the moment, possibly due to the impending release of the next gen Di2 however when an order for a full kit is placed from a LBS they seem to be able to forfill it.
Some people who are doing Di2 buy it in component form as then you can buy an after market battery which fits in the seatpost and a loom which permits in bike charging from the start.
If you want details of your options regarding this I can give you details.


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## Drago (28 Aug 2012)

black'n'yellow said:


> of course it's available in the UK....


Tell Shimmy to update their website then!


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## CopperCyclist (28 Aug 2012)

Rando said:


> Even if on an Ali frame bike ? Or spend the same money on standard Ultegra with Carbon frame ?



Choices choices! To be honest, I think you'll probably be happy either way. Ui2 makes you happy every time you change (especially the front mech - bzzzt!), but standard Ultegra on a Carbon frame is also a little bit of bike heaven!


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## CopperCyclist (28 Aug 2012)

jdtate101 said:


> I see the two main advantages of Di2 over mech is:
> 
> 1) it shifts cleaner under heavy power, which is important for the pros as they can generate loads of watts.
> 
> ...



I read a review in a Cycling mag once that actually suggested most of the benefits suited amateur cyclists more than pros. Shifting under load is an amateur mistake rather than a pro error. Auto trim is more beneficial to people who may say 'trim? how?', and never needing to adjust gear cables is another bonus!


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## Cletus Van Damme (29 Aug 2012)

It sounds great to me. But as I am a normal factory working pleb I am going to wait until it comes down further in price as I cannot justify it at the moment. I am guessing that it may come down in price if it drops down to the lower spec groupsets. Most people I know at work and friends have Tiagra and 105 equiped bikes, if it comes down to those levels (or just 105) I am sure that it will sell loads.


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## black'n'yellow (29 Aug 2012)

CopperCyclist said:


> Shifting under load is an amateur mistake rather than a pro error.


 
that's because pros already know it can't be done effectively - that's not the same as not wanting to be able to do it.


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## jdtate101 (29 Aug 2012)

CopperCyclist said:


> I read a review in a Cycling mag once that actually suggested most of the benefits suited amateur cyclists more than pros. Shifting under load is an amateur mistake rather than a pro error. Auto trim is more beneficial to people who may say 'trim? how?', and never needing to adjust gear cables is another bonus!


 
However, the SKY guys were talking about being able to go up gears on climbs without backing off the power, or attacking into the big ring with assurance of a clean shift. Sounds like the Pro's have just as much use for it. Cav shifting in the sprint using thumb shifters is another great benefit (to him anyway), or button based TT bar end shifters. I'm would not spend the extra cash right now on a retrofit, but if I was in the market for a brand new bike, it would defiantly be either Di2 or UDi2. For now the mechanical is just fine for me.


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## nick.b (29 Aug 2012)

Lots of productive information and feedback here, thankyou all for getting involved


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## CopperCyclist (1 Sep 2012)

Just had to charge my Di2 battery for the first time today too. Well, I should correct that, I didn't "have to", but the indicator finally said its below 50% charge so I decided I would, as reading up it suggests the best way to extend these batteries is to charge up from 50% or above each time. I'm fairly happy with it as its after 600 miles, with a lot of commuting (i.e. loads of front mech changing) involved. What battery life to miles are others getting out of interest?


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## topcat1 (1 Sep 2012)

2800 miles roughly 8-10 months, disconnect the battery after every outing


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## Mr Haematocrit (1 Sep 2012)

I run seat post battery conversions which have a larger capacity than standard so my systems could not be used as any meaningfull comparision. Based on what people get with the standard battery I should get somewhere in the region of 1200 to 1500 miles on average, possibly more but do not know as I have never had to recharge the battery yet 
My larger capacity battery however still weighs less than the standard kit as it does not feature the case holding the batterys, or the bottle cage mounting used most commonly.
I have attached a pic of the seatpost battery I use. The battery is shrink wrapped to ensure its water resistent and then black tape is wrapped round the top and bottom the diameter of the seat post and it simply pushes in place with friction holding it in place.
Never had an issuse even on areo seatposts like the Venge or with the vibration on MTB conversions.
If your still concerned a cork at the bottom of the seatpost adds extra security.


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## BigTam (2 Sep 2012)

CopperCyclist said:


> Just had to charge my Di2 battery for the first time today too. Well, I should correct that, I didn't "have to", but the indicator finally said its below 50% charge so I decided I would, as reading up it suggests the best way to extend these batteries is to charge up from 50% or above each time. I'm fairly happy with it as its after 600 miles, with a lot of commuting (i.e. loads of front mech changing) involved. What battery life to miles are others getting out of interest?


 

I have clocked up over 300 miles this week, since getting the new bike and still on full green.

I have been really impressed with how smooth it is


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## Mr Haematocrit (2 Sep 2012)

You running Dura-Ace or Ultegra BigTam? - Now you have experienced electronic shifting on reasonable length rides, do you think its worthy of all the hype?


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