# Thorn Club Tour or Galaxy Ultra?



## Achilles (18 Jan 2008)

Very new to this game I have narrowed it down to these 2 for my first touring bike as an upgrade from my Marin Larkspur to use for camping touring (about 15kg carried) and, hopefully some 100km/ 100 mile charity events. I am going round in circles making my mind up! I have also considered the Hewitt but it is a long way!


I can get both for give or take the same price – about £900. I have considered the Super thus saving £150 but it is Brown, nothing wrong with it but not for me! and I want SPD pedals ( standard on the Ultra), I think it is worth it for the XT upgrades and fancy trying a Brooks saddle

Issues now are:

The frame – 853 Or 725. Will I realistically notice any difference? Which is ‘better’
- Thorn have more sizes available and at 5’ 10” I seem to fall between 2 galaxy sizes?

Chainset – Sugino 48/38/28 v Shimano 48/36/26 ( 23.6” v 21.9” – I am not fit!)

Crank Length - I can choose 170 or 175 on the Thorn 

Handlebar Width – choice of 3 on the Club tour 

Wheels –XT hubs v Handbuilt on Deore Hubs

XT – the Galaxy has more Shimano XT stuff on it


Thorn do not have bikes for a test ride – they tell me they no not allow this on their derailleur bikes - but do have a 14 day money back guarantee – it’s a 2:30 hour round trip and it means taking 2 days off work – I want to talk face to face to specify and then have a setting up session. Any future adjustment is by post!

My LBS can get me the Galaxy but I cannot return it (well I can but it will cost a 10% re-stock from Dawes – he will order it in specially.) I have ridden one v briefly and was impressed – but everything seems great when its new for the first 5 mins. He will change stem & seatpost as part of the deal if required. Has the attraction that any problems he is 5 mins from where I work and he provides an excellent service. 

Any thoughts on this, yet another, ‘what bike’ thread’?


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## Kirstie (18 Jan 2008)

I'm a very satisfied ultragalaxy owner but I've never tried a thorn. Done several tours on mine and it's been superb. But I DID change the gearing. I'm now running a 105 road block and mech (12/27 ish) with an mtb chainset (22/32/44). It works really well and I can get up every hill easily. I travel very light but then I've only got little legs! I would definitely chose another 853 frame as it really is superbly comfortable. 

Having said that if there is one thing that should influence your final decision it's fit, not build components. If you don't quite fit the galaxy then it's the thorn. You're on your bike for hours touring, and when you're hauling luggage a bad fit will take its toll on your knees, neck, shoulders and back in no time!


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## Stick on a Giant (18 Jan 2008)

Achilles, have you thought about the Specialized Tricross triple - £700 although you'd need to spend about £50 on a rack and 'guards, and also get pedals. If you could get one of those, and let me know what you think... Probably available locally as well.


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## User482 (18 Jan 2008)

I have a Thorn Audax and I am delighted with it - light, and comfortable over long distances. I believe that Thorn will do a full custom build for a little extra cost, which is where I think they score over Dawes.


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## simoncc (18 Jan 2008)

Kirstie said:


> I'm a very satisfied ultragalaxy owner but I've never tried a thorn. Done several tours on mine and it's been superb. But I DID change the gearing. I'm now running a 105 road block and mech (12/27 ish) with an mtb chainset (22/32/44). It works really well and I can get up every hill easily. I travel very light but then I've only got little legs! I would definitely chose another 853 frame as it really is superbly comfortable.
> 
> Having said that if there is one thing that should influence your final decision it's fit, not build components. If you don't quite fit the galaxy then it's the thorn. You're on your bike for hours touring, and when you're hauling luggage a bad fit will take its toll on your knees, neck, shoulders and back in no time!




I am very satified with my Ultra Galaxy, but I too changed the gearing. The 105 road chainset is too high for a tourer in my opinion.


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## jay clock (18 Jan 2008)

Simon, I have just changed from my Saracen Skyline 531 bike (much the same as a Galaxy) which has tons of upgrades inc XT hubs and rock solid wheels. It also has lowered gearing. I have bought a koga Miyata World Traveller as it is more suited for gravel etc ( I am off to NZ). The Saracen is just over 3 yrs old and in excellent nick. See here for some not very good pics http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/julian

The Saracen will be for sale when I get round to it and should save you a few hundred pounds. Plus you can come and try it out at length.

You may well want a new bike, but email me if you are in anyway interested. I am in Winchester


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## vernon (18 Jan 2008)

Achilles said:


> Very new to this game I have narrowed it down to these 2 for my first touring bike as an upgrade from my Marin Larkspur to use for camping touring (about 15kg carried) and, hopefully some 100km/ 100 mile charity events. I am going round in circles making my mind up! I have also considered the Hewitt but it is a long way!
> 
> 
> I can get both for give or take the same price – about £900. I have considered the Super thus saving £150 but it is Brown, nothing wrong with it but not for me! and I want SPD pedals ( standard on the Ultra), I think it is worth it for the XT upgrades and fancy trying a Brooks saddle
> ...



Bike fit and ride quality are very subjective and when asking for a recommendation between various models you need to be mindful that you'll not have that many respondents who:
Have ridden/owned both of the models in the list
Use this forum
Able to second guess what best suits you
Experienced both crank lengths
Having said that I can give some general advice. I am very porky and use an 18" bottom gear. No hill has defeated me in the past couple of years. I have done LEJOG, JOGLE and Channel to the Med on a standard 531 Galaxy plus around forty 100km and 200km Audaxes over the past three years and have had a very comfortable time.

I have Brooks saddles fitted to four of my bikes and find them very comfortable.

I have come across several accounts of cyclists having inadvertantly fitting a 170mm crank on one side and a 175mm crank on the other and not noticing the imbalance. Some folk claim there's a noticable difference. I haven't notice any difference between my 170mm cranked bike and my 175mm cranked bikes but there again, they do have different gear ratios making a direct comparison difficult.

I have never altered handle bar widths - I might have been lucky with every bike that I've purchased and bought ones with suitably wide bars.

There might not be such a wide variety of frames sizes at Thorn as you might think. Do ascertain whether fit is achieved through a wide variety of spacer hieghts and limited frame sizes or vice versa.

My unsupported (by direct experience of both models) opinion is that either of the bikes will do the job and it comes down to personal choice when selection one of them.


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## Cathryn (18 Jan 2008)

I have a Thorn (xtc) and as regular posters will know, am totally in love with it. I would opt for Thorn over Dawes due to the way they can tailor bikes to fit you, and I personally believe they build better bikes...but Vernon's advice is spot on. Trust him...I'm just a novice with a broken leg


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## rich p (19 Jan 2008)

Like most of us we've only tried one of them or neither but that doesn't stop us having an opinion!

I've got an Ultra Galaxy and I love it. My only slight regret is that I didn't find the bloke who's built my wife's custom tourer for just a few pounds more as I would have gone down that road. Hers is a beauty and personal.


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## Achilles (19 Jan 2008)

Thanks for the advice so far! I think I was expecting a service approaching what I assume Hewitt's to be from Thorn. The fact I could not try a bike first, and they seemed happy to supply over the 'phone suprised me. If you only have a hybrid, as I do to compare it to , it is very difficult to send current settings to them.

Opening on a Saturday would be a distinct advantage! ( but I get the impression whilst not actively discouraging visitors, they do little to encourage them - perhaps its just me!)

I suspect I would be happy with either. Anyone got a decent picture of an Ultra? I have not seen one to see what the colour is like and the Dawes pictures dont help much.


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## rich p (19 Jan 2008)

http://tiny.cc/xIC7K

This is the best pic of mine. Hopefully of some use!


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## Achilles (19 Jan 2008)

Thanks Rich - like it - is that the current colour?


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## rich p (19 Jan 2008)

Achilles said:


> Thanks Rich - like it - is that the current colour?



I got it about a year ago but I don't think they changed it. You could probably find last years model anyway. I liked the metallic grey which is why I decided against the super galaxy which was a brownish colour. A bit sad but call me a tart!


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## vernon (19 Jan 2008)

Achilles said:


> Thanks for the advice so far! I think I was expecting a service approaching what I assume Hewitt's to be from Thorn. The fact I could not try a bike first, and they seemed happy to supply over the 'phone suprised me. If you only have a hybrid, as I do to compare it to , it is very difficult to send current settings to them.
> 
> Opening on a Saturday would be a distinct advantage! ( but I get the impression whilst not actively discouraging visitors, they do little to encourage them - perhaps its just me!)
> 
> I suspect I would be happy with either. Anyone got a decent picture of an Ultra? I have not seen one to see what the colour is like and the Dawes pictures dont help much.



Closing on a Saturday is a recent 'innovation' by SJS cycles. Your perceptions about visitors are not unique to you if seen more than a few comments of that nature.

I suspect that most of their sales are generated by their adverts in most of the cycling comics and from their online e-commerce site. I know a few very happy Thorn customers but they all have Rohloff hubbed bikes. One of them had a fitting at Bridgewater but he had the luxury of being retired and having plenty of time on his hands.

You might consider buying your bike from Spacycles at www.spacycles.co.uk Give them a ring and have a chat with them. They are highly rated amongst the cycle touring community.


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## gwhite (19 Jan 2008)

The advantage of going with Thorn is that for each size of frame they provide three lengths of top tube. This is great for those of us who don't have normal proportions. Custom fit would be worthwhile in my opinion and worth the effort. Good quality too.


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## Danny (19 Jan 2008)

gwhite said:


> The advantage of going with Thorn is that for each size of frame they provide three lengths of top tube. This is great for those of us who don't have normal proportions. Custom fit would be worthwhile in my opinion and worth the effort. Good quality too.


Conversely, Dawes seem to have a more limited range of sizes for their various Galaxy bikes - for example they seem jump from 59cms which is too small for me to 64cms which is too big.


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## Abitrary (19 Jan 2008)

On the subject of the Dawes Galaxy versus the ones above that....

They are all steel bikes, but the ultra and the super have compact frames, which negates the point of using steel in the first place, because the triangles are smaller which makes them stiffer.

The original galaxy has normal angles which benefits from the bendiness of steel. The ones above that are a cynical rip-off, and are just aping compact frames of racing bikes, albeit with a very expensive brooks saddle as the cherry on top.


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## vernon (19 Jan 2008)

Abitrary said:


> On the subject of the Dawes Galaxy versus the ones above that....
> 
> They are all steel bikes, but the ultra and the super have compact frames, which negates the point of using steel in the first place, because the triangles are smaller which makes them stiffer.
> 
> The original galaxy has normal angles which benefits from the bendiness of steel. The ones above that are a cynical rip-off, and are just aping compact frames of racing bikes, albeit with a very expensive brooks saddle as the cherry on top.



The Thorn Club Tour is also a compact frame so the point of your advice when choosing between a compact framed Dawes and a compact framed Thorn is?.....


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## Abitrary (19 Jan 2008)

vernon said:


> The Thorn Club Tour is also a compact frame so the point of your advice when choosing between a compact framed Dawes and a compact framed Thorn is?.....



Don't buy either.


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## rich p (20 Jan 2008)

i'm not an expert but the Ultra galaxy is the most comfortable bike I've ever ridden by far so......


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## Abitrary (20 Jan 2008)

rich p said:


> i'm not an expert but the Ultra galaxy is the most comfortable bike I've ever ridden by far so......



I can't see how the Ultra Galaxy can be more comfortable than the baseline version, except for a better saddle, tyres etc.

The Ultra might as well be aluminium and bring the price down a bit.

The only way that steel works is on long tubes, so they get bendy a bit. And that is what one sees on the baseline one, for 500 quid less.


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## Danny (20 Jan 2008)

> Originally Posted by vernon
> The Thorn Club Tour is also a compact frame so the point of your advice when choosing between a compact framed Dawes and a compact framed Thorn is?.....
> 
> 
> ...


And instead buy what?


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## Abitrary (20 Jan 2008)

Dannyg said:


> And instead buy what?



A normal galaxy, with all the extra kit instead.

I'm sure they would do it for you.


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## Danny (20 Jan 2008)

Agreed - provided the sizing is right. 

Otherwise I'd still consider a Thorn for the greater choice of sizes - or if money is no object, go for a custom build.


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## Abitrary (20 Jan 2008)

Dannyg said:


> Agreed - provided the sizing is right.
> 
> Otherwise I'd still consider a Thorn for the greater choice of sizes - or if money is no object, go for a custom build.



True, the thorn is a more specific rough riding bike.

I'm just angry that dawes use fashion to market their more high end bikes.


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## Abitrary (20 Jan 2008)

using the old truism of an aeroplane flying well if it looks good, which of these looks best for a steel bike?

http://www.dawescycles.com/dawes/ultra-galaxy.htm

http://www.dawescycles.com/dawes/galaxy.htm


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## byegad (20 Jan 2008)

As a Thorn Club Tour owner for the last 4 years, I can only say how happy I am with it.


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## rich p (20 Jan 2008)

Abitrary said:


> I can't see how the Ultra Galaxy can be more comfortable than the baseline version, except for a better saddle, tyres etc.
> 
> The Ultra might as well be aluminium and bring the price down a bit.
> 
> The only way that steel works is on long tubes, so they get bendy a bit. And that is what one sees on the baseline one, for 500 quid less.



I didn't say it was more comfortable than the galaxy as I've never ridden one! I simply stated that thge Ultra was the most comfortable bike I'd ridden. As I said in my first post, most of us have probably only owned one of the 2 bikes asked about and we can only offer a subjective opinion on the one we've got. As the OP wanted to choose between 2 named bikes I didn't think it was worth offering my opinion on other bikes I've owned or other bikes I haven't owned!


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## Achilles (21 Jan 2008)

Thanks for the 'advice' - what makes Thorn Club Tour a 'more specific rough riding bike' - it is not that different from the Ultra spec in general terms. Is this important in a tourer?

Also for those that do have a Thorn - what was the buying experience and aftercare like? At the moment my LBS and hence the Galaxy has the edge there and that is an important factor for me. ( and 2 days holiday back!)


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## Andy in Sig (21 Jan 2008)

One other factor thing that might be worth looking at is a Rohloff hub gear. It will add a few quid to the cost but that has to be the best system for touring. You are probably aware that Thorn has specialised in them to a large extent.


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## User482 (21 Jan 2008)

Seeing as someone mentioned Hewitt - have you not considered them? I've heard nothing but praise for their service and bikes, and they look to be better value than Thorn. I must admit that if I were buying a new bike, I'd probably go with them.


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## Achilles (21 Jan 2008)

I had thought of them - they are a long way to travel, and a bit more for a similar spec. I gather the frames are available elsewhere ( Byercycles for example) so you are probably paying for the fitting service? I am hoping my LBS can come close to this albeit without a Jig?


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## User482 (22 Jan 2008)

Achilles said:


> I had thought of them - they are a long way to travel, and a bit more for a similar spec. I gather the frames are available elsewhere ( Byercycles for example) so you are probably paying for the fitting service? I am hoping my LBS can come close to this albeit without a Jig?



Hewitt do their own custom frames as well as the ones available elsewhere.


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## simoncc (23 Jan 2008)

Andy in Sig said:


> One other factor thing that might be worth looking at is a Rohloff hub gear. It will add a few quid to the cost but that has to be the best system for touring. You are probably aware that Thorn has specialised in them to a large extent.



Rohloff hubs are wasteful of energy especially on the low gears, which are the gears often needed while touring in hilly areas with heavy loads of camping stuff etc. I find the best system for touring is a cheap, mid-quality 21 speed set up - something like Alivio or Deore. These systems are quite good and adequate for touring, and if I ever had a tourer built up from a frame I'd specify one.


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## TheDoctor (23 Jan 2008)

Achilles said:


> I had thought of them - they are a long way to travel, and a bit more for a similar spec. I gather the frames are available elsewhere ( Byercycles for example) so you are probably paying for the fitting service? I am hoping my LBS can come close to this albeit without a Jig?



Byercycles can also do full builds, which could be worth considering. Their handbuilt wheels are pretty good. They're a bit of a trek (oo-er) from Wiltshire though.


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## nobby (23 Jan 2008)

" I would opt for Thorn over Dawes due to the way they can tailor bikes to fit you,"

How long have Thorn been offering this?
When I enquired they were happy to try to shoehorn me on a limited number of presized frames.
Hewitt, Mercian, etc. tailor bikes to fit you.


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## nobby (23 Jan 2008)

User482 said:


> Seeing as someone mentioned Hewitt - have you not considered them? I've heard nothing but praise for their service and bikes, and they look to be better value than Thorn. I must admit that if I were buying a new bike, I'd probably go with them.



I bought a Hewitt frame and had it fitted out at my lbs. It is superb and the back ache I used to get is gone. I told Paul Hewitt about the back ache and he adjusted the jig to compensate. It was well worth the long trip North. In August, September and October I did 1400km with camping loads ranging form 17kg to 22.5kg (dog blankets to compensate for a too cold quilt) and I was never uncomfortable on the bike.
I didn't like Thorn's attitude on phone or by email considering that I was looking to spend £1500. I thought that they were very interested in selling a bike rather than selling me the bike I needed. Other's experiences have differed.


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## Rhythm Thief (24 Jan 2008)

In my experience (which admittedly consists of reading similar forums to this one), Thorn's much - vaunted "personalisation" of bikes involves sticking hundreds of spacers onto the steerer tube. But perhaps I'm wrong about that, to be fair. I'd go for a Dawes, preferably an older one with the UK built frame.


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## Achilles (24 Jan 2008)

I am coming to that conclusion - and I get the impression Thorn would be happy to be a mail order company.(Rohloff test rides apart) The LBS and the Galaxy is looking favourite at the moment.


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## Andy in Sig (24 Jan 2008)

simoncc said:


> Rohloff hubs are wasteful of energy especially on the low gears, which are the gears often needed while touring in hilly areas with heavy loads of camping stuff etc. I find the best system for touring is a cheap, mid-quality 21 speed set up - something like Alivio or Deore. These systems are quite good and adequate for touring, and if I ever had a tourer built up from a frame I'd specify one.



I'm sure you've some technical evidence to support that view but I've experienced no probs in lower gears and would not now by choice go back to derailleurs. That said as a recumbent rider who lives in a hilly area I would one day like to get a Schlumpf mountain drive as a replacement for the bottom bracket to give me that extra bit of gearing for uphills but I would want to do that for a derailleur system too.


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## Andy in Sig (24 Jan 2008)

Achilles said:


> I am coming to that conclusion - and I get the impression Thorn would be happy to be a mail order company.(Rohloff test rides apart) The LBS and the Galaxy is looking favourite at the moment.



The cost of test ride would probably be a good investment as it would be a rotten feeling to have a go on a Rohloff equipped bike at a later date and then decide that you wanted one.


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## Tim Bennet. (24 Jan 2008)

The more I read and hear about other peoples' bike buying experiences, the more I appreciate making the effort to get down to Hewitts. For the same sort of money as a Dawes or Thorn:

- You get a perfect fit without having to swap parts or guess at alterations.
- You get a choice of styles from titanium light touring/audax bikes through to 26 inch wheel expedition tourers. (The Cheviot is only one of his offerings).
- You get any colour you want together with any braze ons and bits.
- You get the whole thing assembled by a meticulous, slightly anal, time served mechanical engineer.
- You get the best built wheels available anywhere that are way more reliable (in my friends experience) than either Dawes' machine built ones or Thorn's cart wheel style offerings.

You just have to trade off the hassle of getting to Leyland for the day for a measurement against the hassle free years that will follow.


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## rich p (24 Jan 2008)

Tim Bennet. said:


> The more I read and hear about other peoples' bike buying experiences, the more I appreciate making the effort to get down to Hewitts. For the same sort of money as a Dawes or Thorn:
> 
> - You get a perfect fit without having to swap parts or guess at alterations.
> - You get a choice of styles from titanium light touring/audax bikes through to 26 inch wheel expedition tourers. (The Cheviot is only one of his offerings).
> ...



There are other builders who may be closer to him and just as good!


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## jags (24 Jan 2008)

I Bought A Thorn Sherpa Frameset Built It Up With Shimano Xt,all The Usual High End Gear.what I Think About The Bike Is Super Smooth,strong Frame,not All That Heavy As Far As Touring Bikes Goes ,it's A Class Bike I Cant See This Bike Giving Any Problem's,im Well Impressed.


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## simoncc (24 Jan 2008)

Andy in Sig said:


> I'm sure you've some technical evidence to support that view but I've experienced no probs in lower gears and would not now by choice go back to derailleurs. That said as a recumbent rider who lives in a hilly area I would one day like to get a Schlumpf mountain drive as a replacement for the bottom bracket to give me that extra bit of gearing for uphills but I would want to do that for a derailleur system too.




I've ridden a bike with one, and I agreed with my friend the owner that the hub saps energy in the low gears. As he lives in the Lake District he is a bit peeved, but he's loaded anyway so I don't feel too sorry for him. In the last CTC mag they did a review on a mountain bike with such a hub, and the reviewer said it ruined his hill climbing and felt like it sapped about a quarter of his energy in the low range. Good, reliable derailleur systems are quite cheap now anyway. There is no need to use XT or posh stuff like that on a tourer.


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## Tim Bennet. (24 Jan 2008)

> There are other builders who may be closer to him and just as good!


Then tell us your personal experiences of them. The more information the OP gets, the more informed decision he can make.


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## rich p (24 Jan 2008)

Tim Bennet. said:


> Then tell us your personal experiences of them. The more information the OP gets, the more informed decision he can make.



I already did in an earlier post!
And just because it was nearer me doesn't mean it's nearer him which was my point!


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## P.H (24 Jan 2008)

I have a Hewitt Cheviot SE and a Thorn Raven Tour, both superb bikes and I was very happy with the service from both companies.
For what you want, I'd get a Hewitt. It's the closest thing you'll find to a custom bike at off the peg prices. The extra few quid and the trip to Leyland are insignificant when making a purchase that'll last decades. What you'll learn from the bike fitting session could be of greater benefit than component choice or frame material.


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## P.H (25 Jan 2008)

simoncc said:


> I've ridden a bike with one, and I agreed with my friend the owner that the hub saps energy in the low gears.


The noise and feel make it easy to come to that conclusion. The facts tell a different story
http://www.bhpc.org.uk/HParchive/PDF/hp52-2001.pdf

In an independent test the Rohloffs efficiency was 86 - 93% and a 27spd Shimano 89 - 97%. So there is a difference, nothing like the amount mentioned in the Cycle review and soon narrowed by a dirty or worn derailleur setup.


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## simoncc (25 Jan 2008)

P.H said:


> The noise and feel make it easy to come to that conclusion. The facts tell a different story
> http://www.bhpc.org.uk/HParchive/PDF/hp52-2001.pdf
> 
> In an independent test the Rohloffs efficiency was 86 - 93% and a 27spd Shimano 89 - 97%. So there is a difference, nothing like the amount mentioned in the Cycle review and soon narrowed by a dirty or worn derailleur setup.




Well, a good derailleur system is very cheap now, and still more efficient.I'd be tempted by a Rohloff if I was ever to go trekking across the wilds of Asia or Africa for months on end and needed a bulletproof simple system, but for touring round the hilly, scenic bits of England and Scotland in the spring/summer/early autumn for a week or two I don't see the point of going to the extra expense or inefficiency of a hub. 

If you use a mid-range 21 or 24 speed system to keep costs down, you can buy an awful lot of new chains, chainrings, cassettes and jockey wheels before you ever come close to the cost of a Rohloff. In my experience most people tour on their bikes in late spring/summer, and on my bikes nearly all the wear and tear on the drive train takes place in the grim and gritty winter. Summer tourers needn't worry about wear and tear too much.


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## nobby (25 Jan 2008)

Tim Bennet. said:


> The more I read and hear about other peoples' bike buying experiences, the more I appreciate making the effort to get down to Hewitts. For the same sort of money as a Dawes or Thorn:
> 
> - You get the whole thing assembled by a meticulous, slightly anal, time served mechanical engineer.



Slightly? 

My only problem with Hewitt was on the delivery date for the frame. I took a day off work and it never arrived. When I phoned I was lied to. Explanations that it had been dispatched the day before were punctured when I pointed out that the day before had been a Sunday. Eventually, it was admitted that the carrier had only collected from them that morning and it was in the carriers warehouse. It was completely unnecessary. A simple truth of 'we've got it wrong' would have been better.
I put the component list to my lbs who knowing of my back problem, and what I wanted the bike for, sent me to Hewitt rather than squeeze me ala Thorn onto what he had, or could get. Some components I used XTR (hubs and block come to mind) most were XT. 
It is a very comfy bike with a full camping load and equally enjoyable for two day B&B rides or day tours.
HTH

Re: Rohloff

The search for the perfect low maintenace gearset has been going on for a long while and still there are mostly derailleurs about on touring bikes. I happily use a Sachs 3 speed on my Brompton and my old series 3 Moultons I had 5 speed SA hubs that gave no problems and I am thinking of a SA 5 in my recumbent.
If you are touring and get any kind of gear failure a derailleur is likely to be easiest to repair.
There is a guy going around Oz at the moment on a Rohloff and it is leaking oil. He has communicated the problem back to Rohloff and the bike supplier - Thorn - and been told, efectively - don't worry about it. It hasn't caused him any real problems yet but I'd worry. I like faults fixed. If oil is leaking out something isn't right and how much leeway have you got between constant topping up and it running dry?.
I have a friend who lost 7 rear spokes in a Rohloff equipped rear wheel in France, and I'm sure that I have read of at least two round the world riders who had hub flanges snap off on Rohloffs. Both had to wait for replacements to be flown to them where derailleurs could have been repaired or replaced on the spot.
When I'm absolutely certain that the Rohloff is more reliable than derailleur for loaded touring then I'd think it the ideal gear solution. I don't think it is yet. Rohloff faults in the average European town aren't going to get repaired at the local bike shop. 
My view is that any failure on a Rohloff is going to delay you longer than a fault on a derailleur set.


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## simoncc (25 Jan 2008)

nobby said:


> Slightly?
> 
> My only problem with Hewitt was on the delivery date for the frame. I took a day off work and it never arrived. When I phoned I was lied to. Explanations that it had been dispatched the day before were punctured when I pointed out that the day before had been a Sunday. Eventually, it was admitted that the carrier had only collected from them that morning and it was in the carriers warehouse. It was completely unnecessary. A simple truth of 'we've got it wrong' would have been better.
> I put the component list to my lbs who knowing of my back problem, and what I wanted the bike for, sent me to Hewitt rather than squeeze me ala Thorn onto what he had, or could get. Some components I used XTR (hubs and block come to mind) most were XT.
> ...



I know a couple of people with Rohloffs and they haven't had any trouble with them, but they do drag and they are expensive so why bother? They are a solution looking for a problem really, and derailleurs are usually not a problem, they are cheap and they don't drag.


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## Andy in Sig (25 Jan 2008)

Nobby,

you're right about the potential difficulty for getting Rohloff's repaired in remote places. The leaking oil is the first account of something wrong with the "doings" of a Rohloff which I've ever heard. In fact Rohloff's proud boast was that not one hub is know to have failed since the system was introduced (in 96 I think). Obviously derailleurs are much more likely to go wrong but will be quicker to repair.

The broken spokes sounds like a badly built wheel as one of the big advantages of hub gears is that the back wheel is stronger as there is no need for dishing.

All I can say is that I have two Rohloff equipped backs, have not had a hint of a problem with either and would not go back to derailleurs at all. And while I accept Simon's opinion that he experiences drag, I can only say that I've never been aware of such a problem.


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## Danny (25 Jan 2008)

The problem I've found with Paul Hewitt is that his website is so poor that it is impossible to find out what range of frames he actually builds or how much they cost.

Can he send you some kind of brochure, or do you have to go all the way to Leyland to find out?


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## Tim Bennet. (25 Jan 2008)

His site for the Cheviots isn't that bad:

www.hewittcheviot.co.uk

but if it's something else, it's best to call him. As everything is available in every combination, they haven't detailed every variation. There's not even mention of the 26inch wheel version, but I've seen one being wheeled away by a customer.


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## Danny (25 Jan 2008)

Thanks. The site for Paul Hewitt Cycles that comes top of the list on Google is the one that's not very good. Have to confess that I didn't think to try any of the other links.


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## vernon (25 Jan 2008)

nobby said:


> There is a guy going around Oz at the moment on a Rohloff and it is leaking oil. He has communicated the problem back to Rohloff and the bike supplier - Thorn - and been told, efectively - don't worry about it. It hasn't caused him any real problems yet but I'd worry. I like faults fixed. If oil is leaking out something isn't right and how much leeway have you got between constant topping up and it running dry?.
> I have a friend who lost 7 rear spokes in a Rohloff equipped rear wheel in France, and I'm sure that I have read of at least two round the world riders who had hub flanges snap off on Rohloffs. Both had to wait for replacements to be flown to them where derailleurs could have been repaired or replaced on the spot.
> When I'm absolutely certain that the Rohloff is more reliable than derailleur for loaded touring then I'd think it the ideal gear solution. I don't think it is yet. Rohloff faults in the average European town aren't going to get repaired at the local bike shop.
> My view is that any failure on a Rohloff is going to delay you longer than a fault on a derailleur set.



The chap in Australia sounds like George Brown. The bike has covered a fair number of miles having done a substantial part of the South American part of the Pan American Highway, chunks of Spain France and North Africa in the past couple of years. I know from his blogs and emails that he had problems with his forks (oil leak would you believe) in South America and he was very happy with the support that he received. I believe parts were shipped out to him.

Thorns are like Marmite. They are loved or loathed with no middle ground.


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## simoncc (26 Jan 2008)

Thorn make some nice audax bikes which I wouldn't mind, but their tourers seem to be the cycling equivalent of 4x4 cars to me. They are all toughness and rugged features like Rohloff hubs that most people will never need but don't mind paying extra for.


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## Keith Oates (28 Jan 2008)

I have a Thorn Brevet and am really happy with it and the service I got from Thorn when buying the bike. They would get my vote although the others are also good AFAIK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Achilles (28 Jan 2008)

Just got the CTC mag today - a super Galaxy is reviewed in it. Interesting to note that the frame is changing shape for 2008 . Not bad but I might look at the Hewitt Cheviot SE and the Ridgeback Panorama.

Whatever - it will be make your mind up time soon!


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## Bollo (28 Jan 2008)

I bought a Thorn Rohloff-equiped kiddyback last year as I didn't fancy kiddy-cranks or a tag-along. I wasn't sure how Bolletta would take to it so the 100 day money-back was appealing.

Anyways, the ability to chuck the Rolhoff up and down the gear range when stationary is very handy when you've got a nipper on the back, as out-of-the-saddle mashing from stationary is quite tricky after unexpected or tricky stops. In gears 8-14, I'd say the Rohloff is as efficient as any derailleur system I've ever ridden. Gears 1-7 _do _drag, although this does get noticeably smoother with a few miles on it. The dragging feels more hydraulic than mechanical, as if the oil in the hub is responsible the loss of power, though this is very subjective.

I've now got a Thorn Sport Tour as my commuter/getting-around bike. I stumped for another Rohloff as I my commute seemed to eat derailleurs and I just got tired of adjusting stuff every week. Its a little over-the-top, but I've read and had word-of-mouth reports that the Nexus can be a little fragile and I couldn't find an Alfine-equipped bike that was available sufficiently soon.

As for the leaky oil, I think this gets a mention somewhere in the vast Rohloff manual, where they refer to it as "sweat oil" . The hub looks so over-engineered that it wouldn't surprise me that it could run practically empty.


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## Andy in Sig (29 Jan 2008)

You say that the bike drags in lower gears. The lower gears are audible and this does diminish with time but I have never felt that there was any kind of drag in them. I've read reports where people complain about the grinding noise and I wonder if that sort of subliminally suggests that the gears are dragging? I suspect the only answer would be for some propers tests to be carried out.


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## P.H (29 Jan 2008)

Andy in Sig said:


> I suspect the only answer would be for some propers tests to be carried out.



You mean like this? 



> The noise and feel make it easy to come to that conclusion. The facts tell a different story
> http://www.bhpc.org.uk/HParchive/PDF/hp52-2001.pdf


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## simoncc (30 Jan 2008)

Achilles said:


> Just got the CTC mag today - a super Galaxy is reviewed in it. Interesting to note that the frame is changing shape for 2008 . Not bad but I might look at the Hewitt Cheviot SE and the Ridgeback Panorama.
> 
> Whatever - it will be make your mind up time soon!



The CTC gives the price of the Super Galaxy at £1000. You can get it for £700 at Spa Cycles, whjich makes the bike a fantastic deal.


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## Achilles (30 Jan 2008)

I also note that the Ultra is in the Mag at £850 and the Spa Website lists the 2008 model ( when available - 19 Mar, Dawes tell me) at £960.

Decisions, decisons!


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## Tim Bennet. (30 Jan 2008)

The CTC review also says (in the nicest possible, indirect way), that the rear wheel of the Galaxy leaves a lot to be desired. This has certainly been my experiece touring with people riding them.

As the rear wheel is about the only part that ever fails on a touring bike, it only seems sensible to buy a bike from somewhere reknown for its wheels, rather than settle for some badly designed, machine built offering.


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## Danny (30 Jan 2008)

Though I am sure you could talk to Spa about upgrading the supplied wheels for a better pair.


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## mcd (30 Jan 2008)

Not tried a Thorn bike, but I do have a Rohloff hub.



simoncc said:


> I know a couple of people with Rohloffs and they haven't had any trouble with them, but they do drag and they are expensive so why bother?



Lots of items commonly seen on a touring bike increase drag -
> drop bars (instead of tri-bars), 
> side panniers (instead of a rucksac), 
> spokes (instead of a disc), 
> dynamo lighting (instead of batteries)
but they all have benefits for touring that outweigh the drag.

If there was any more drag than with a derailleur system, you'd get used to it as quickly as the benefits of hub gears:
> stronger wheel (no dishing, shorter spokes), 
> virtually no maintenance (no cleaning, no cable stretch),
> lower running costs (longer lasting chains, no need to replace worn out block), 
> convenience of changing gear in the spot 

IMO all these outweigh the extra cost of a Rohloffs for touring and commuting.


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## simoncc (30 Jan 2008)

Dannyg said:


> Though I am sure you could talk to Spa about upgrading the supplied wheels for a better pair.



Why bother? I've done over 10,000 plus on my 2004 Ultra Galaxy bought for £900 in 2005 from Spa Cycles, including at least 1,000 miles on off-road towpaths, bridleways and old railway lines and many miles of heavy load carrying. My bike is battered and scruffy but the wheels are as good as new. The whole bike is superb, although I have changed the front brake to a long reach double pivot as cantilever brakes are rubbish whatever the make in my opinion. If I had to make one gripe about my Ultra Galaxy it would be about the paintwork. It bubbled and flaked off in two places at the main joints after a year of hard use, but a tin of Hammerite for a fiver fixed that.

The Super Galaxy at £700 is a steal. Why pay more?


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## nobby (31 Jan 2008)

Somebody said: "Bike fit and ride quality are very subjective"
Bike fit isn't subjective if the frame is made to fit you as per Hewitt, Mercian, and others.
If the frame is right then the ride quality will also be right.
You pay more but you get an individual item that will likely see you out, and the quality of every other component can be adjusted to suit your pocket or preference. They are relatively cheap and always replaceable.

I decided that for me frame and wheels were most important. A Cheviot SE frame (I would have liked a Mercian but it was an eight week wait, and I wouldn't) and XTR hubs, quality spokes and the same rims as Hewitt use as my starting point. As good fortune has it, I was able to afford an XTR cassette and XT everything else plus a couple of expensive locks to help keep it mine, but everything else could have been a lot cheaper without any detriment to the fit and ride.

I'm very interested in your final decision and look forward to you defending it to the death on here :0)


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## simoncc (31 Jan 2008)

I've had custom built frames in my time and I think they are overhyped. The reason I don't buy them any more, even though I can still afford to, is that I never really noticed the difference in having a frame measured for me. Unless you are very short, a giant or very unusually proportioned I can't really see the need for a custom built frame apart possibly from some ultra tough paint jobs that some makers offer. I'd go for the cheapest well-specced tourer you can get. 

Bikes are like most modern consumer goods these days. You get a lot more quality for your money than you used to, and unless you go right to the bottom of the market it is hard to buy junk any more.


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## nobby (1 Feb 2008)

Looking like Mr. Average, being neither short, very tall or unusual, I'd disagree with the comment re unnecessary and overhypped.
I do get back ache. 
Paul Hewitt fitted my pedals, saddle and handlebars to his jig and adjusted it for perfect fit. I'd told him about my back ache so he further adjusted to stretch my spine and take the pressure off the discs. The result is a perfect fitting frame and no back ache at all.
All mass produced frames are a size compromise that is then adjusted by stem length, handlebar position, handlebar type, seat height, seat fore and aft, crank length and anything else adjustable that I have forgotten. Their are a lot of riders who put up with various aches and pains because their bikes are adjusted as close as they can get them. Start with a tailor made frame and the root of the problem disappears.
I cannot get the relative positions of handlebars and seat on my Brompton to the same as my Hewitt and it causes pains in back (if ridden far enough), and knee (still experimenting with that) over short distances. As I only use it for my two commuting days a week and going to town it isn't a big problem. 
You do get a lot more for your money in modern consumer goods these days than you used to but, like bespoke suiting, bespoke frames have always been ahead of the mass produced field. If you can afford bespoke go for it; you'll never regret it. If you can't, then compromise; buy what you can afford and move on later.


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## simoncc (1 Feb 2008)

I'm sure a customised frame can help some people who suffer from a physical ailment, but I don't see why most people buy them. I just don't think frame size is that critical for most people. All my bikes give me a different riding position and I find them all OK. I get the feeling that people who are serious about any hobby can often convince themselves that special equipment and expenditure is always required, and cyclists are no different in this respect. Nor are cyclists immune to being influenced by what they see as prestige/ designer makes of equipment.

The quality of mass produced bike frames, like the quality of most consumer items, has shot up in the last 20 years or so.


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## Danny (1 Feb 2008)

I've never had a custom frame, partly because I can't afford it and partly because I've tended to share Simonncc's views about getting sucked into buying prestige equipment.

However I am seriously thinking of getting a cutom bike next time because:
a) I do get lower back problems which I haven't got rid of by tweeking the bike myself so I would like to see if I would benefit from a bke that fits properly.
 Mass produced frames like the Dawes Galaxy now have a narrower range of sizes than they used to in the "old days". Thorn is an exception, as has already been discussed, but their bikes can be as expensive as a custom bike - and in my case they are too far from where I live to make it practical to try one out at their premises.
c) When I have previously bought mass produced bikes I've ended up spending quite a lot upgrading various components, or quickly replacing cheap ones that fail, so I tend to feel that further reduces the cost differential.


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## Gordon Eady (24 Nov 2011)

My partner Sue has had a Thorn Club Tour for three years now and has ridden many thousand miles on it, she's delighted with it I must say. The Thorn philosophy of having the bike delivered all boxed up with a 14 day cooling off period worked for us. I accept that it's counter intuitive to buy such a large expensive item through mail order like this but their sizing and parts selection is so comprehensive you certainly have more choice than any off the peg bike. You could also opt for a 'frame only' too if you want to have the bike built up yourself? I reckon it's the bext value most flexible option to obtain a high quality steel frame touring bike without going the whole Roberts/Mercian boutique bike build route which invariably costs a whole lot more.


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