# Lights: how bright is too bright?



## Wheeledweenie (21 Jan 2010)

The other night on my way home I looked behind me before pulling out round a parked car and was dazzled by a cyclist's light that was so bright it left black spots in front of my eyes. Luckily the traffic wasn't heavy but it got me thinking. It's not the first time it's happened and it's deeply unpleasant. I'm talking about lights that are above and beyond car headlights.

I've definitely seen an increase on my commute (west London) in seriously bright lights on some bikes. Of course people should have lights on their bikes and in isolated areas you may well need ones bright enough to light your way but how bright do they need to be in cities with street lighting?


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## summerdays (21 Jan 2010)

I'm not sure its how bright - but the angle that they are shining at. I've been making sure my new Hope 1 is pointing down at the road in front of me - although I admit I've yet to lean it against a fence and then see what it looks like from a distance.


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## Wheeledweenie (21 Jan 2010)

Good point, perhaps it's the angle they're at.


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## HelenD123 (21 Jan 2010)

summerdays said:


> I'm not sure its how bright - but the angle that they are shining at. I've been making sure my new Hope 1 is pointing down at the road in front of me - although I admit I've yet to lean it against a fence and then see what it looks like from a distance.



+1 I've just got the Hope Vision 1 and there's a warning not to look directly at the light. It got me thinking that car headlights are lower down than handlebar-mounted bike lights so I'm going to have to be very careful to angle it down. I'd be doing that anyway to better light up the road.


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## Bollo (21 Jan 2010)

It's an unfortunate side effect of the vast improvement in cycle light technology over the past couple of years. If the lights are just there to be seen, pumping out more lumens is a pretty crude way of doing it as the size of the light aperture or lens, the beam distribution and any flashing function will all have a large effect.

If you need lights to see along unlit, crap surfaced country lanes at night and ride at a reasonable pace, then you've got to pump out a reasonable amount of light. This is likely to be more or less dazzling if left on 'full beam'. If that's the case, then I usually drop the power to my main light if another vehicle is approaching. The last thing you want is a dazzled driver heading your way.


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## Davidc (21 Jan 2010)

Not as bright as the Hope 1 but I'm using a Cyo 60, and if that gets knocked so it's in driver's faces I get complaints.

It doesn't take 60 or 120 lumens to be seen - these lights are for seeing, otherwise they just dazzle which puts everyone at risk. They need to be aimed at the road ahead. B&M reckon on the centre of the bright beam hitting the ground 10m from the bike.


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## beanzontoast (21 Jan 2010)

Out of interest, and in keeping with the OP's theme, how many lumens should a decent light be for 'being seen' rather then 'seeing with'? What's do people see as the benchmark level?


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## Norm (21 Jan 2010)

I have two front lights.

The more powerful Exposure Maxx is bike-mounted and is used on low power or flash whenever I'm on the road. The lack of proper beam distribution means it shouldn't be used on high power when other vehicles are around. Although it does get cars to dip their own headlights before they come round a corner, so it must appear as powerful as a car headlight. It is nearly always on flash setting, though, and set to point at the ground about 10m in front of me.

I also have a head mounted Exposure Joystick, which is usually on low power on the roads. That is enough to make sure I get noticed by a car coming out of a side turning, although on low power, it doesn't cause much discomfort. On high power, though, it is blinding to anything within about 30m. 

Tests were done on Mrs Norm, BTW, rather than just flashing my torch at random motorists and then asking what they thought. 

If it is just to be seen, you could use a £10 Cateye.


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## Wheeledweenie (21 Jan 2010)

beanzontoast said:


> Out of interest, and in keeping with the OP's theme, how many lumens should a decent light be for 'being seen' rather then 'seeing with'? What's do people see as the benchmark level?



I have bog standard Cateyes and, for me, I reckon it's enough as practically all of my commute's on the Uxbridge Road, which is lit all the way but I just waed to know others' views as some of the boys near me seem, in my view, to be getting a bit excessive on sheer brightness.


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## summerdays (21 Jan 2010)

I hadn't bothered with upgrading my lights until this winter when I was having to cycle a very poorly lit road with a poor road surface - hence why I want the light pointing downwards anyway. 

Now I've got it I'm smitten


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## beanzontoast (21 Jan 2010)

Wheeledweenie said:


> I have bog standard Cateyes and, for me, I reckon it's enough as practically all of my commute's on the Uxbridge Road, which is lit all the way but I just waed to know others' views as some of the boys near me seem, in my view, to be getting a bit excessive on sheer brightness.



I've noticed more people using brighter lights too, and that's in the space of last winter compared to this. I guess as long as it's not going to dazzle people, the brighter, the better - though in my case I also find using two Smart/Cateye lights front and back also works well.


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## tyred (21 Jan 2010)

I think everyone needs to make their own assessment of their own lights by sitting in a car and getting someone else to ride the bike towards you, preferably on an unlit road.


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## Norm (21 Jan 2010)

tyred said:


> I think everyone needs to make their own assessment of their own lights by sitting in a car and getting someone else to ride the bike towards you, preferably on an unlit road.


I'll have to say that I think that is a great idea, because that is pretty much exactly what I did.  :troll:

I pulled into the stables where The Smalls were having their riding lesson and the wife thought it was one of the horse transporters coming into the yard, there was that much light as I rode up to her. (That was intentional, I had the whole lot on full to see what her reaction would be)

Let's just say that she doesn't worry about me not being seen at night any more.


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## BentMikey (21 Jan 2010)

When I arrive in the park at night, my friends often comment how they're not sure if it's me or someone in a car.


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## Browser (21 Jan 2010)

Echoing what Bollo said, there are a lot of lights pumping out big lumen figures, but it's not really well-directed. I suspect that most of the very bright lights (500L and upwards) are really only intended for off-road use and just have clear or translucent front covers. Vehicle lights have quite complex lensing arrangements, so that the driver can see where they are going, the oncoming traffic isn't blinded and they incorporate features like a 'kicker' in the nearside light to help illuminate pedestrians on pavements.
I am going to investigate either fitting a shroud around my light or a small motorcycle/scooter lens over the light unit to try and cut down the dazzle, as there is a lot of spilled light being wasted and compromising oncoming drivers' vision.
Beanzontoast, it all depends what the illumination state of the roads/paths/tracks your ride on is. If you are all on city roads, a Cateye commuter light will do as you probably don't need to see the road surface, if all of the streetlights work.
commute in on unlit rural roads and have established that much less than 300 lumens leaves you blind. The Ayup V Twin Sports puts out 400 lumens, my Niteflux Enduro 8 puts out 540 lumens and I still sometimes feel I could do with a bit more.


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## summerdays (21 Jan 2010)

Do you think with time the lens's will become more shaped?


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## fossyant (21 Jan 2010)

They are only too bright when they melt the tarmac....


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## fossyant (21 Jan 2010)

TBH, mine are angled slightly so that the main 'spot' is about 10m in front of the bike, and that the spot is at number plate height when behind a car -i.e. it's not aimed into the vehicle. I run my Hopes on medium 99%...just whack them up for the last mile as that's when I encounter some of the idiots on the back streets.


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## GrasB (21 Jan 2010)

From personal experience an Exposure Joystick aimed horizontally is about as dazzling as the quad-source HID setup of the Alfa in full melt your eyeballs at 50 paces mode (a mode I've never actually felt the need to use in anger on public roads)! However the Joystick's after effect is actually worse. That said you don't have to move that far off the centre of the Joysticks beam & you've got just annoyance, the Alfa however is still dazzling at 60 degrees off centre!

Really I don't think the problem is brightness it's aim/lensing, in terms of lumen headlights of motorbikes & cars knock bike lights for 6 but are less of a problem because they're appropriately lensed. I find that if the Joystick is aimed high enough for a decent warning of surface problems on a fast descent it's aimed to high for other road users, a distance of illumination which both the Alfa & Exige exceed with dipped beams but don't cause the same dazzling.


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## AlanW (21 Jan 2010)

Its not really a case of how bright they are, its how the light is distributed onto the road/track.

My Lumicycle HID lights are awesome lights, but there is far to much light scatter. So if I have them set to afford me maximum illumination then it will dazzle oncoming traffic. To the point that it really does annoy drivers, and I have had all sorts of abuse in the past.

But even if I angle them right down, cars will still stop at junctions or islands coz they "think" that its a car or motorbike coming. To make it worse I could be that I am a couple of hundred yards from the junction. Then when they realize that they have been sat there waiting for "just" for a cyclists to peddle past, that get really pissed off. 

Its not that funny really....B)

But in saying all that, once you get into the country lanes and angle the critters back up again, you can ride as fast at night as you could in the day, they are that good.


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## tightwad (21 Jan 2010)

Hope 1 on Max - 240 lumens- all the way home; swivel it left and right as I approach junctions where I know there's a chance of a car driver pulling out.


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## Baggy (21 Jan 2010)

AlanW said:


> But even if I angle them right down, cars will still stop at junctions or islands coz they "think" that its a car or motorbike coming. To make it worse I could be that I am a couple of hundred yards from the junction. Then when they realize that they have been sat there waiting for "just" for a cyclists to peddle past, that get really pissed off.
> 
> Its not that funny really....
> 
> But in saying all that, once you get into the country lanes and angle the critters back up again, you can ride as fast at night as you could in the day, they are that good.


As another Lumicycle HID owner, this is a familiar story B) 
I use the spot version which doesn't give too much spill, so haven't had much grief from drivers. When two of us ride together cars etc often pull over to give way on lanes, thinking we're a car.

Though it's brilliant on unlit lanes etc, in the past I've had verbal abuse from cyclists on the unlit bike path I use on my commute (some whom had such cr*p lights I'm amazed they've not yet ended up in the canal) so on this stretch I either rotate it down or use a backup light for that section.

This year I've notice people using some seriously bright lights - it's difficult not to stare into them. It's a tricky balance if your ride takes you through a mix of paths/lit areas/unlit areas.

Have recently had loan of a lumicycle system 4 LED which is amazing, and has a "dip" switch...it's on my lighting wish list now.


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## hackbike 666 (21 Jan 2010)

Don't have the brightest of lights but I have any problems.

Blackburn quadrant for flashing and an MR 16 (21 LED) steady.

My lights both front and rear have been commented on recently including a rather puzzled moton at Stratford trying to work out my MR 16 light.


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## AlanW (21 Jan 2010)

Baggy said:


> in the past I've had verbal abuse from cyclists on the unlit bike path I use on my commute



Yes, I get exactly the same, I forgot to mention that.


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## hackbike 666 (21 Jan 2010)

Are megabright lights needed though unless you are off road?


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## Baggy (21 Jan 2010)

hackbike 666 said:


> Are megabright lights needed though unless you are off road?


On unlit, potholey roads, yes.


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## Baggy (21 Jan 2010)

That said, if I still lived in a town/city I'd commute with a "get you noticed" LED, something like the HID would be overkill.


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## HelenD123 (21 Jan 2010)

Baggy said:


> On unlit, potholey roads, yes.



+1 My Cateye can't cope with unlit country lanes.


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## Norm (21 Jan 2010)

Baggy said:


> On unlit, potholey roads, yes.





Baggy said:


> That said, if I still lived in a town/city I'd commute with a "get you noticed" LED, something like the HID would be overkill.





HelenD123 said:


> +1 My Cateye can't cope with unlit country lanes.


+1 to all of that. I have Cateyes and even Knog Frogs to use when I'm staying urban.


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## fossyant (21 Jan 2010)

hackbike 666 said:


> Are megabright lights needed though unless you are off road?



I'd say yes..they make the dozy buggers take notice........

Mine is a fast, but constant traffic commute, there isn't too much 'filtering' like in London, say.


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## HJ (21 Jan 2010)

I use DiNotte 400l Road rider lights and so far no one has complained, never had anyone flash at me or anything like that. The First time I used them, I did have an oncoming car driver dip their lights, before seeing me, just saw the loom for the light around a blind corner...

Lupine do suggest their lights for commuting, now if I had the money I would happily use a Betty 14 for commuting. Provided you use the lights _sensibly_, don't aim them at other people faces, dim them to the appropriate light level for the situation, there shouldn't be a problem. It is just a case of behaving in a responsible manner...


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## yashicamat (21 Jan 2010)

I use a 480 lumen Hope Vision 2. Around town, I have it on level 2 (there is quite a big jump between levels 1 and 2) which allows me to see things in the shadows under trees and makes me sufficiently visible to other vehicles. When I hit the unlit lanes, it goes to level 3 or sometimes level 4 if the road is wet. I tend drop it back to level 2 though for oncoming cars (they dip their lights so it seems like courtesy for me to do likewise . . .) then back up again once they're past.


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## Norm (21 Jan 2010)

I'll stick these pix in the "show us your lights" thread too, but I did some comparatives this evening. 

All shots taken at 1/30" at F5 and an ISO equivalent of 3200. In case anyone else is as anal as me.  The lights were about 20' from the garage door.

Firstly, base reading, Cateye HL-EL135 3LED light, available from any bike retailer and a "to be seen" light. I used it because I reckon many here should be familiar with it, so you can visualise how it compares. 




Second shot, the same Cateye on the left but, on the right, an Exposure Joystick Maxx 2 on its lowest setting. Unfortunately, I've just realised that the sensor light came on but it's brighter with a much broader spread of light.




Third shot, same two lights but this time the Joystick is on full power. The light from the Cateye is almost completely swallowed up, you can just see the faint blue tinge where the Cateye is shining.




Shot number 4 and the big guns are coming out. An Exposure Enduro Maxx on low power. It's not as bright as the Joystick on full power but it is still enough to overwhelm the Cateye.




Last one, the Cateye is still in there, completely swallowed up by the Enduro Maxx on full beam. Ouch.


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## 2Loose (21 Jan 2010)

I ride on mostly lit semi urban roads...was considering getting a hope vision 1, but some of the lights discussed sound as though they would be almost anti-social in such an environment! I don't want to annoy people, just get noticed and spot the new pot holes in advance. Is the Hope 1 enough for this situation?

Just seen your post Norm, nice comparison. You read my thoughts almost.


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## Norm (21 Jan 2010)

2Loose, the Hope Vision 1 is a superb light, I have a friend with one, well made and a good price for a decent light. 

If you want a light to get noticed, though, I'd recommend a head-mounted light as it puts the light source somewhere different. 

Something from Petzl, for instance, should work in an urban environment, although I will always rave about the Joystick. Especially if you are regularly in unlit areas, having something switchable which is that powerful makes off-road and country lanes an inviting place to ride at night.


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## fossyant (21 Jan 2010)

So good, I bought 2, and so did Potsy and Marinyork.....

The AA battery's sold it to me.


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## BentMikey (22 Jan 2010)

I'm a bit doubtful of the effectiveness of pointing a Maxx Daddy downwards a little - the spread of light is so wide that the light reaching drivers will only be reduced a little.

I'm not much of a believer in this whole LED intensity thing. As bright as the Maxx-D is, on a dark country lane a car behind manages to wash out the light completely with reasonably ordinary car headlights.




fossyant said:


> I'd say yes..they make the dozy buggers take notice........
> 
> Mine is a fast, but constant traffic commute, there isn't too much 'filtering' like in London, say.



+1. Even more so when doing a lot of filtering.


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## Davidc (22 Jan 2010)

Norm said:


> If you want a light to get noticed, though, I'd recommend a head-mounted light as it puts the light source somewhere different.



Disagree. They are totally ineffective.

When driving the car I find head-mounted lights almost invisible. Cyclists wearing them and using no other front light have been the cause of the two closest near misses I've ever had with bikes. (In both cases no other lights at the front, dark clothing, and every other step taken to ensure invisibility as well)

The ones I see soonest are bright flashing lights at handlebar height.

By all means wear one but make sure there's a light on the bike where car drivers will see it as well.


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## BentMikey (22 Jan 2010)

Davidc said:


> Disagree. They are totally ineffective.



Your experience is in complete contrast to everyone else I've read. Helmet mounted lights are *extremely* effective, especially in freezing drivers at sideroads who might be on the verge of pulling out. Perhaps you've never seen someone with a joystick class head lamp?


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## Armegatron (22 Jan 2010)

BentMikey said:


> Your experience is in complete contrast to everyone else I've read. Helmet mounted lights are *extremely* effective, especially in freezing drivers at sideroads who might be on the verge of pulling out. Perhaps you've never seen someone with a joystick class head lamp?



+1


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## Origamist (22 Jan 2010)

Handlebar and helmet mount lights complement one another. Issues of legality aside, if I had to choose one, I'd go for a handlebar mount.


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## BentMikey (22 Jan 2010)

I'd find it hard to imagine anyone having only a helmet light and not bike mounted lights as well.


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## Origamist (22 Jan 2010)

BentMikey said:


> I'd find it hard to imagine anyone having only a helmet light and not bike mounted lights as well.



I saw 2 last night!


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## Origamist (22 Jan 2010)

tyred said:


> I think everyone needs to make their own assessment of their own lights by sitting in a car and getting someone else to ride the bike towards you, preferably on an unlit road.



+1. 

Experiment with different positions and angles. For me, the problem is that my light has a very concentrated hot spot and this has to be aimed down. The spill light is still bright, but not dazzlingly so.


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## tyred (22 Jan 2010)

Is it just my imagination or is a good halogen light superior to any LED light? 

I have several LED lights, including a pretty expensive Topeak (forget what model off-hand) and although they are all very bright, they give a very poorly focused light IMO. To get a decent range, they need to be set high enough to annoy drivers. On my other bike, I fitted a relatively inexpensive Basta bottle dynamo system with a halogen light which although it doesn't seem as bright at first glance, it is easier to pick out pot holes and the like. Drag is barely noticeable but the noise is. I modified it to fit to the forks rather than the handlebars and I think this is even better at lighting up the road surface and I can happily ride at 20+ mph on unlit roads with this. I mounted an LED lamp on the bars so I would have a light if I stop and also it is removeable so can be used as a torch in the event of a problem.


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## Norm (22 Jan 2010)

BentMikey said:


> I'm a bit doubtful of the effectiveness of pointing a Maxx Daddy downwards a little - the spread of light is so wide that the light reaching drivers will only be reduced a little.


That broad spread is why I love it off road and also why I only use it on flash when other vehicles are around.



Davidc said:


> When driving the car I find head-mounted lights almost invisible. Cyclists wearing them and using no other front light have been the cause of the two closest near misses I've ever had with bikes. (In both cases no other lights at the front, dark clothing, and every other step taken to ensure invisibility as well)


I was thinking that 2Loose was buying an additional light, rather than an alternative light. I would *always, without fail, *recommend people have good lights on their bike _in addition to_ a head mounted unit.

I'm surprised that you missed two, though, David, as my write-up after the first time I used the head-mounted light showed I feel that it saved me from two SMIDSYs on that first ride.



Origamist said:


> Handlebar and helmet mount lights complement one another. Issues of legality aside, if I had to choose one, I'd go for a handlebar mount.


Indeed, if anyone wanted just one light, then I'd say go with the bike light and not only for legal reasons. If possible, though, something like the Joystick mounted on your head is fandabeedozee.


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## Bollo (22 Jan 2010)

HJ said:


> Lupine do suggest their lights for commuting, now if I had the money I would happily use a Betty 14 for commuting. Provided you use the lights _sensibly_, don't aim them at other people faces, dim them to the appropriate light level for the situation, there shouldn't be a problem. It is just a case of behaving in a responsible manner...



I've a Betty (a 7 - the number just refers to the battery size as the head unit is the same for both 7 and 14) that I use on-road but rarely for my commute. It's ok in traffic as long as you set up the power settings so that you can select something like 5%, which equates to something under 100 lumens. The betty has quite a large lit surface area, so the effect is like a small motorcycle headlight - visible but not dazzling.

Mine is set up to step 5%-60%-100%. The 60% setting can be dazzling as the standard lenses aren't directional and have something like 16 degree spread. However, the betty mount is easy enough to 'nudge' on the handlebars, effectively dipping the beam. It sounds crude, but works well when you're just encountering the odd car. 100% is more like a weapon than a light.

I have run the Betty alongside a Diablo on the odd really dark run. This is nice as you can leave the Diablo alone on a medium setting, giving a rideable non-dazzling splash of light and then just modulate the betty depending on conditions. Both on max setting is something over 2200 lumens. I have *never *needed this!


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## tdr1nka (22 Jan 2010)

I've been running an Ay-Up lamp on the front and a Di'Onette 140L on the back for over a year now. In that time I've only had one driver(sat in a queue of oncoming traffic)actuallly complain about the dazzle(from Ay-Ups).
I have them pointing down, the beam in the road about 5m ahead, I like to be able to see the road. Sodium streetlight can make everything two dimensional and the lamps pick out potholes and road cr*p much more clearly.
Having my lights on in both the night and the day(a throwback from my motorcycling days)means they get me seen, which after all is what they're for.

One warning with regard the Di'Onette tho, you shouldn't run it on fast flash in slow and heavy traffic as it fries the eyes/mind of any driver caught behind you!


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## hackbike 666 (22 Jan 2010)

Baggy said:


> On unlit, potholey roads, yes.



True true,or a canal path.


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## Davidc (22 Jan 2010)

Norm said:


> I'm surprised that you missed two, though, David, as my write-up after the first time I used the head-mounted light showed I feel that it saved me from two SMIDSYs on that first ride.
> 
> Indeed, if anyone wanted just one light, then I'd say go with the bike light and not only for legal reasons. If possible, though, something like the Joystick mounted on your head is fandabeedozee.



The point about using head lights with another, at driver's eye height, is what I agree with. I'm certainly not against using head lights in that way.

Fortunately I did see them - I just noticed them much later than I would have liked, and IMO too close for comfort.

I have no problem with helmet lights being used, it's when they're used alone I complain.

In both the cases I've nearly missed them I think its because the bright beam han't been pointing at me, and as has been said above I may not have seen the best, working and mounted well.

Cyclists, peds, and motor cyclists having plenty of lighting and reflectives is good, as it helps drivers see them and avoid them, and adding a helmet light &/or reflectors can only be good IMO, although back to the OP dazzling other people isn't a good move.


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## Norm (22 Jan 2010)

Davidc said:


> The point about using head lights with another, at driver's eye height, is what I agree with. I'm certainly not against using head lights in that way.


I thought we were in agreement, I just missed a few salient bits from my earlier post.


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## Wheeledweenie (22 Jan 2010)

Gosh, I go away overnight and all this good stuff.

Hmmmmmm, perhaps if I see someone dazzling me again I shall politely suggest a change in angle.


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## scouserinlondon (22 Jan 2010)

I've got two DX $11 torches on the front which are okay but not amazing, and the batteries only last two commutes before I recharge. I also have a fenix L2d on the lid on medium which is awesome. Agree that you should always have decent lights on the bike itself.


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## Wheeledweenie (22 Jan 2010)

scouserinlondon said:


> I've got two DX $11 torches on the front which are okay but not amazing, and the batteries only last two commutes before I recharge. I also have a fenix L2d on the lid on medium which is awesome. Agree that you should always have decent lights on the bike itself.



Decent without being dazzling though......


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## scouserinlondon (22 Jan 2010)

Wheeledweenie said:


> Decent without being dazzling though......



I've got the torches pointed at the road so they're not a problem. I've not had any abuse about the fenix on me bonce, though it is quite bright even on medium. I ride on such wide roads that there's a lot of stuff between me and the opposite carriageway.


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## ufkacbln (22 Jan 2010)

I use a 720 Lumens Exposure Enduro MAxx and there are still some drivers who cannot see it!

The question is whether a brighter light (if there was one) would be any more visible to thses numpties.


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## ufkacbln (22 Jan 2010)

On a more serious note - do we need to have a whole new genre of lights?

Off road lighting fulfils different needs than those of commuters. However the difference is simply fixed. Car headlights have a reflector that is designed to produce a beam pattern to give visual field for driving and cut out the top section which would affect other drivers.

It should not be too difficult to provide commuting lights with high output and "road friendly" beam patterns.

Could even be a selling point?


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## fossyant (22 Jan 2010)

Cunobelin said:


> I use a 720 Lumens Exposure Enduro MAxx and there are still some drivers who cannot see it!
> 
> The question is whether a brighter light (if there was one) would be any more visible to thses numpties.




Hmm get some lasers  No not pens, military grade.......

Plenty don't see 480 lumens of Hope 1's though......


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## fossyant (22 Jan 2010)

Cunobelin said:


> On a more serious note - do we need to have a whole new genre of lights?
> 
> It should not be too difficult to provide commuting lights with high output and "road friendly" beam patterns.
> 
> Could even be a selling point?



You can get them - B&M do them


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## GrasB (22 Jan 2010)

BentMikey said:


> I'd find it hard to imagine anyone having only a helmet light and not bike mounted lights as well.



it's getting quite common now & people are using 'heavy weight' lights on max... I almost missed a parking space due to some idiot looking at me with a 240 lumen helmet light.


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## ufkacbln (22 Jan 2010)

fossyant said:


> You can get them - B&M do them



At a price!

Over £500

What we need is something at the 240 Lumens mark with road lens. and definitely sub £100


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## BentMikey (22 Jan 2010)

GrasB said:


> it's getting quite common now & people are using 'heavy weight' lights on max... *I almost missed a parking space* due to some idiot looking at me with a 240 lumen helmet light.




Aaaahaahahahahahahaha!!!! Wow, what a catastrophe.


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## GrasB (22 Jan 2010)

BentMikey said:


> Aaaahaahahahahahahaha!!!! Wow, what a catastrophe.


It is when it is 'protected' by trief curbs & you're approaching it in the mid-high 20mph on a bike. Sorry I should have explained, I just had a totally clear idea of exactly what I was taking about in my mind.



Cunobelin said:


> At a price!
> 
> Over £500
> 
> What we need is something at the 240 Lumens mark with road lens. and definitely sub £100


Firstly you don't need as many lumen when you're not wasting half or more of your lumen on scatter that you don't need on road. Also B&M rate their lights in terms of lux not lumen & I duno what lumen the IXON IQ & IQ Speed are but it'll be interesting to find out how effective an IQ (Speed) is compared to a Joystick


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## trio25 (22 Jan 2010)

I use either a Exposure Joystick or turbo, but both on low settings on the road. No complaints but definetly cut up less than with "be seen" lights. It's handy as any rural bits I do I just wack them up full and no problems!


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## HJ (22 Jan 2010)

Davidc said:


> Disagree. They are totally ineffective.
> 
> When driving the car I find head-mounted lights almost invisible. Cyclists wearing them and using no other front light have been the cause of the two closest near misses I've ever had with bikes. (In both cases no other lights at the front, dark clothing, and every other step taken to ensure invisibility as well)
> 
> ...



+1 I agree, and have pointed this out on another thread over a month ago.



BentMikey said:


> Your experience is in complete contrast to everyone else I've read. Helmet mounted lights are *extremely* effective, especially in freezing drivers at sideroads who might be on the verge of pulling out. Perhaps you've never seen someone with a joystick class head lamp?



BM your riding a bent, which means you head _is_ at about handlebar level for a normal bike


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## HJ (22 Jan 2010)

tyred said:


> Is it just my imagination or is a good halogen light superior to any LED light?
> 
> I have several LED lights, including a pretty expensive Topeak (forget what model off-hand) and although they are all very bright, they give a very poorly focused light IMO. To get a decent range, they need to be set high enough to annoy drivers. On my other bike, I fitted a relatively inexpensive Basta bottle dynamo system with a halogen light which although it doesn't seem as bright at first glance, it is easier to pick out pot holes and the like. Drag is barely noticeable but the noise is. I modified it to fit to the forks rather than the handlebars and I think this is even better at lighting up the road surface and I can happily ride at 20+ mph on unlit roads with this. I mounted an LED lamp on the bars so I would have a light if I stop and also it is removeable so can be used as a torch in the event of a problem.



You obliviously have seen a bright LED lights, we are not talking about toys like the Topeak, we are talking serious lights...


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## HJ (22 Jan 2010)

Cunobelin said:


> I use a 720 Lumens Exposure Enduro MAxx and there are still some drivers who cannot see it!
> 
> The question is whether a brighter light (*if there was one*) would be any more visible to thses numpties.



Try the Lupine Betty at 1750 Lumens or the Dinotte 1200L at (um) 1200 lumens...


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## tyred (22 Jan 2010)

HJ said:


> You obliviously have seen a bright LED lights, we are not talking about toys like the Topeak, we are talking serious lights...



Even so, dynamo powered halogen works for me and lowers my carbon footprint


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## BentMikey (23 Jan 2010)

HJ said:


> BM your riding a bent, which means you head _is_ at about handlebar level for a normal bike



LOL, I didn't think of that. In fairness I've used it mostly on the upright, which I do ride sometimes.


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## GrasB (23 Jan 2010)

trio25 said:


> I use either a Exposure Joystick or turbo, but both on low settings on the road. No complaints but definetly cut up less than with "be seen" lights. It's handy as any rural bits I do I just wack them up full and no problems!



I keep my Joystick on flash where there's street lighting, longer battery life & can keep it aimed higher without causing other motorists problems.

My issue with the joystick is when I get to main rural roads which are unlit. Low & medium settings aren't really good enough to properly illuminate the road for me, high is just about good enough but it dazzles drivers.


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## trio25 (23 Jan 2010)

I do not like flashing front lights, they seem to irritate me, both on my own bike and on others so I have mine steady.


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## thomas (23 Jan 2010)

trio25 said:


> I do not like flashing front lights, they seem to irritate me, both on my own bike and on others so I have mine steady.




Do you find when you get home you can still see flashing? I sometimes get that from my knog on my helmet which I have set to flashing.


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## fossyant (23 Jan 2010)

trio25 said:


> I do not like flashing front lights, they seem to irritate me, both on my own bike and on others so I have mine steady.



+1 - I have a Knog Toad that mounts underneath the bars, so I can't see the flash.


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## ufkacbln (23 Jan 2010)

HJ said:


> Try the Lupine Betty at 1750 Lumens or the Dinotte 1200L at (um) 1200 lumens...



These are Portsmouth Taxi Drivers..............


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## potsy (23 Jan 2010)

3 lads at the bus stop this morning,one of them said "thought that was a motorbike" when they saw my 2 Hopes1's 
Told a mate about it at work he said "what,until they heard your heavy breathing and wheezing?" Git


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## CharlesF (23 Jan 2010)

At the back I have a Cateye LD600 on constant, a small flashing light on the pannier and on the front a light my son makes - 750lm with a Cree MC-E driven at 700mA per die, to give a focused beam there is a CMC RS optic. This light has high, low and flashing settings. Low is fine for roads, angled down no-one complains; I only use the high power on the tow path to throw a long beam that catches the pedestrians dressed in black, at a cost of £180 with a 4800Ah battery and charger, it is a bargain. Lastly, I have ordered a Topeak helmet light to finish off the Christmas tree effect.


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## GrasB (23 Jan 2010)

trio25 said:


> I do not like flashing front lights, they seem to irritate me, both on my own bike and on others so I have mine steady.


Well the Joystick is one of 3 lights I have on the bike & it's a low/high strobe more than flashing I'm guessing it's about 30/240 lumen strobe. The 240 lumen cuts through the light clutter nicely but isn't bright enough for long enough to cause issues with motorists & I've only had positive comments about the light on strobe. I don't actually see the led at all so don't notice the strobing. Obviously out of town I have it on solid as it's my see by light.


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## HJ (23 Jan 2010)

tyred said:


> Even so, dynamo powered halogen works for me and lowers my carbon footprint



Hey if if works for you, that great


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## HJ (23 Jan 2010)

Cunobelin said:


> These are Portsmouth Taxi Drivers..............



You expect me to remember the name of the car which got me home after a run ashore??


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## BentMikey (23 Jan 2010)

LMAO!! I don't think a joystick is bright enough to do any blinding of oncoming traffic.


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## fossyant (23 Jan 2010)

potsy said:


> 3 lads at the bus stop this morning,one of them said "thought that was a motorbike" when they saw my 2 Hopes1's
> Told a mate about it at work he said "what,until they heard your heavy breathing and wheezing?" Git




I'd clonk the colleague..... use the Hope on a rope !!! 

The reaction's I've had have been from peds....

Kids "whoaaahh they are bright"

Blackpool 'Ride the Lights' - "good god they are bright" (peds on the prom...... "you'll beach the ships with those lights' (from a marshal) bear in mind the level of 'light pollution' from the displays.....

The main reactions are when motorists shuffle out of my way in traffic queues, they think it's a motorbike when filtering..... I'll wave a 'thanks' to them.


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## potsy (23 Jan 2010)

fossyant said:


> I'd clonk the colleague..... use the Hope on a rope !!!


I would but he'sbigger than me And he was right,just got to the top of brinny hill and was having my recovery 1/2 mile doing about 9mph
Anyway I always take the micky out of him for riding a yellow racer


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## GrasB (23 Jan 2010)

BentMikey said:


> LMAO!! I don't think a joystick is bright enough to do any blinding of oncoming traffic.


It's not about absolute lumen output it's about lux at the light source. If you compare a Joystick to a Maxx-D you have 1/4 the lumen produced over 1/4 the surface area. When aimed (in)correctly this surface brightness is more than enough to leave a nasty after image which lasts for about 30s or so, in this regards the Joystick actually manages to outperform all but the brightest car headlights on main beam.


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## HJ (23 Jan 2010)

GrasB said:


> It's not about absolute lumen output it's about lux at the light source. If you compare a Joystick to a Maxx-D you have 1/4 the lumen produced over 1/4 the surface area. When aimed (in)correctly this surface brightness is more than enough to leave a nasty after image which lasts for about 30s or so, in this regards the Joystick actually manages to outperform all but the brightest car headlights on main beam.



Humm, let see

Exposure Joystick MaXx Beam Shot




Exposure MaXx-D Beam Shot




The Maxx-D is definitely brighter, and neither light should be used in a way which would dazzle on coming people...


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## GrasB (23 Jan 2010)

HJ;1095876][quote name= said:


> When aimed (in)correctly this surface brightness is more than enough to leave a nasty after image which lasts for about 30s or so, in this regards the Joystick actually manages to outperform all but the brightest car headlights on main beam.



Humm, let see...

<snip>

...The Maxx-D is definitely brighter, and neither light should be used in a way which would dazzle on coming people...[/QUOTE]
The crucial thing for dazzling people isn't actually the ultimate lumen it's the surface brightness of the oncoming light, in this regard the Maxx-D is no more powerful than the Joystick. The reason is simple while Maxx-D has 960 lumen output it's spread over 4 240 lumen LEDs, the Joystick has 1 240 lumen LED. So while the Maxx-D has 4x more output the surface brightness of the two lights is the same... the Maxx-D just has more surface area.[/b]


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## Cubist (24 Jan 2010)

Go get one of these bad boys. 
http://lumilite.co.uk/


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## AlanW (24 Jan 2010)

Cubist said:


> Go get one of these bad boys.
> http://lumilite.co.uk/



Never heard of these before? It would be interesting to hear from anyone that has seen or used one?

But I am a little suspicious about that night time forest shot, as I sure that I have seen that same location used in other adverts by different companies?

Here


Is it the same place or not?

There is also an advert on e-bay from a supplier in Hong Kong using the same/similar location picture. I am just trying to find the advert in question, but failing at the moment.


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## AlanW (24 Jan 2010)

Cubist said:


> Go get one of these bad boys.
> http://lumilite.co.uk/



Otherwise know as the Magicshine MJ-808

Full review here


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## Cubist (24 Jan 2010)

AlanW said:


> Otherwise know as the Magicshine MJ-808
> 
> Full review here


Well spotted, except..... buy it from Lumilite and you get a smaller neater power pack, and a UK compatible intelli charger. Buy a magicshine you wait about three months for it to come from Hnog Knog or wherever, and then find the charger won't fit into the mains in the UK. Also, my mate has a magicshine and it's lensed slghtly differently. I'll have to put the two side by side for a full comparison. Mine has a flood with a bit of a hotspot. Mate's magicshine is just flood.

Oh, and the magicshine has 5 modes, this has 3, (claimed ) 900 Lumens, 500 lumens and flash. Flashes at a different speed to the Magicshine. 
£80 quid for a f bright off road light? What's not to like?


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## Cubist (24 Jan 2010)

AlanW said:


> Never heard of these before? It would be interesting to hear from anyone that has seen or used one?
> 
> But I am a little suspicious about that night time forest shot, as I sure that I have seen that same location used in other adverts by different companies?
> 
> ...



Looks like the wood Hope used as well...........


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## BentMikey (25 Jan 2010)

GrasB said:


> The crucial thing for dazzling people isn't actually the ultimate lumen it's the surface brightness of the oncoming light, in this regard the Maxx-D is no more powerful than the Joystick. The reason is simple while Maxx-D has 960 lumen output it's spread over 4 240 lumen LEDs, the Joystick has 1 240 lumen LED. So while the Maxx-D has 4x more output the surface brightness of the two lights is the same... the Maxx-D just has more surface area.



I don't think this is correct. I would have thought that the blinding ability of a particular light is dependant on how much light is reaching the observer, and not over what area the light is being emitted at.


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## GrasB (25 Jan 2010)

The source intensity defines how big the 'impact' is, the surface area defines how big a spot in the vision is 'impacted'. Yes the brighter Maxx-D will make the pupil contract more but the real lasting impact, which leaves you with a blind spot in your vision, is the residual image & that's down to light source intensity.


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## 2Loose (25 Jan 2010)

Stop pointing them at peoples eyes!


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## scouserinlondon (25 Jan 2010)

Well one of my two $11 DX torches has started to give up the ghost. It was mainly off during my commute tonight. Time to admit defeat and ordered myself a hope 1. You get what you pay for etc...


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## Sheffield_Tiger (25 Jan 2010)

2Loose said:


> Stop pointing them at peoples eyes!



That's it, really.

"How bright is too bright" - well, there isn't a definitive answer. Even a £15 flashing LED light aimed directly at eye level could be a distraction, but a massive floodlight, if pointed down so it bounced off the road and lit you up in a pool of light like an escaping POW in the searchlight, ought to be fine


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## knonist (26 Jan 2010)

I was stopped in the middle of NCN11 (in Cambridge, an unlit stretch of cycle lane) last week by another cyclist saying my light is too bright.
I was using two LD20 on medium at the time and I need to see the road in front of me clearly for the new potholes; and before I got onto the NCN11, I had to cycle through 5 miles of unlit country lane.
Am I really too bright?


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## HJ (26 Jan 2010)

No, you just met the village idiot...


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## Armegatron (27 Jan 2010)

knonist said:


> I was stopped in the middle of NCN11 (in Cambridge, an unlit stretch of cycle lane) last week by another cyclist saying my light is too bright.
> I was using two LD20 on medium at the time and I need to see the road in front of me clearly for the new potholes; and before I got onto the NCN11, I had to cycle through 5 miles of unlit country lane.
> Am I really too bright?



LD20 on medium shouldnt be too bright, especially if pointed down at potholes etc. I have one on my helmet on turbo and never get any complaints.


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## scouserinlondon (27 Jan 2010)

mike.pembo said:


> LD20 on medium shouldnt be too bright, especially if pointed down at potholes etc. I have one on my helmet on turbo and never get any complaints.



I have mine on the one below turbo on my lid, turbo for the sprint across the common.

Turbo is bloody bright.


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## Wheeledweenie (28 Jan 2010)

knonist said:


> I was stopped in the middle of NCN11 (in Cambridge, an unlit stretch of cycle lane) last week by another cyclist saying my light is too bright.
> I was using two LD20 on medium at the time and I need to see the road in front of me clearly for the new potholes; and before I got onto the NCN11, I had to cycle through 5 miles of unlit country lane.
> Am I really too bright?



Perhaps it was the angle. Cyclists looking behind might be dazzled by something not too bad for motorists.


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## Glow worm (28 Jan 2010)

knonist said:



> I was stopped in the middle of NCN11 (in Cambridge, an unlit stretch of cycle lane) last week by another cyclist saying my light is too bright.
> I was using two LD20 on medium at the time and I need to see the road in front of me clearly for the new potholes; and before I got onto the NCN11, I had to cycle through 5 miles of unlit country lane.
> Am I really too bright?



Not as bright as the cars whose driver's assume they don't have to dip their full beam for cyclists/ peds. Seems to happen all the time around here. Don't think you can be too bright on a bike if the lights are positioned correctly.


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## GrasB (28 Jan 2010)

2Loose said:


> Stop pointing them at peoples eyes!


My joystick is aimed so it's centre beam is hitting the ground about 7-8m in front of my wheel & even on Maxx (240 lumen) this doesn't seem to be an issue for motorists. However what kickecd off the brightness/dazzling discussion was this:



GrasB said:


> It's not about absolute lumen output it's about lux at the light source. If you compare a Joystick to a Maxx-D you have 1/4 the lumen produced over 1/4 the surface area. *When aimed (in)correctly* this surface brightness is more than enough to leave a nasty after image which lasts for about 30s or so, in this regards the Joystick actually manages to outperform all but the brightest car headlights on main beam.


The bit in bold is important.


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## dellzeqq (28 Jan 2010)

bright rear lights can be a bit of a pain on group rides, but some of the front lights are just too much. Wowbagger's front light turns off street lights!!!


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## BentMikey (28 Jan 2010)

What light has he got, Mr L3?


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## fossyant (28 Jan 2010)

dellzeqq said:


> bright rear lights can be a bit of a pain on group rides,



We've got a Bike to Work coming up again next week, and I'll stick to the rear with my Mars 4 and RSP Astrum.....not nice to follow on a bike...........


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## HJ (28 Jan 2010)

dellzeqq said:


> bright rear lights can be a bit of a pain on group rides, but some of the front lights are just too much. Wowbagger's front light turns off street lights!!!



Why, does he have a NiteRider Pro1200!?


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## MacB (28 Jan 2010)

nobody running hub dynamos with LED lights?


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