# Cyclist death on a90 dual carriageway



## Pedrosanchezo (18 Mar 2013)

A cyclist has been killed on the dual carriageway running from Dundee to Perth. First off i would like to extend my deepest sympathys to the family and any friends.

I must ask though, again, why cyclists continue to use dual carriageways when there is a reasonable option!?! There is a cycle route from Dundee to Perth which is all good A road. There is also a cycle path on the A90 which runs beside the motorway.
Whether the driver of the lorry is to blame or the cyclist is to blame makes no difference - it could have all been avoided if we, as cyclists, choose the safest option and not necessarily the quickest.

Please be careful out there and consider your route carefully.
FWIW, I cycle these roads daily and have never found the need to ride the dual carriageway. There are 2 other options both ways and both are significantly safer.


http://news.stv.tv/tayside/218044-c...g-hit-by-lorry-on-a90-named-as-charles-aimer/

I hope my view on this does not offend anyone. I am simply asking people to think twice before riding on busy dual carriageways.

RIP.


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## gaz (18 Mar 2013)

I wouldn't rule out riding on duel carriageways full stop, they come in different shapes and sizes. The biggest issue is usually the difference in speed, I regularly cycle on duel carriageways with 40mph limits and have few problems.

However a fast flowing 60mph duel carriageway which has large haulage vehicles on, is perhaps one to avoid.

At looking on the road in street view, it looks fairly open. There should be no reason why the haulage lorry could not see the cyclist and plan a course of action, this is of course unless it was closely following another one to save fuel and the cyclist got messed up by the first ones air turbulence. Alas we do not know the facts so we are unable to say.

My condolences to his family and may he rest in piece.


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## green1 (18 Mar 2013)

gaz said:


> However a fast flowing 60mph duel carriageway which has large haulage vehicles on, is perhaps one to avoid.


A Dual carriage way is a 70mph limit not 60.


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## gaz (18 Mar 2013)

green1 said:


> A Dual carriage way is a 70mph limit not 60.


If it has national speed limit applied to it. Duel carriage ways can be limited to any speed, for example.. This duel carriage way is a 40mph limit. In fact there are several duel carriageways i know of which are 30mph limit.


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## 4F (18 Mar 2013)

Personally I avoid main dual carriageways wherever possible. I have ridden on the A14 a couple of times and even though both times were on relatively quiet Saturday's there were still a lot of HGV's and it is not an experience that I enjoyed, nor one that I would wish to do again.


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## Mo1959 (18 Mar 2013)

Yes, sympathies to the guy's family and friends and also to the lorry driver but I totally agree. I would never even consider riding on that road. Even the suction of air from an artic going past would be horrendous. I recall seeing that there was a cycle path along the side so can't understand why anyone would risk the dual carriageway.


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## Pedrosanchezo (18 Mar 2013)

This dual carriage way is national speed limit. Both Perth and Dundee have harbours/ports so the road is rife with heavy goods vehicles. I drive it nearly everyday and IMO it is far from suitable for a cyclist. I do however see the odd cyclist using it, now and again. It troubles me every time...........


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## Pedrosanchezo (18 Mar 2013)

Mo1959 said:


> Yes, sympathies to the guy's family and friends and also to the lorry driver but I totally agree. I would never even consider riding on that road. Even the suction of air from an artic going past would be horrendous. I recall seeing that there was a cycle path along the side so can't understand why anyone would risk the dual carriageway.


There is a cycle path but more importantly there is a road that runs parallel all the way to Perth. It is national cycle route 77 (Sustrans). Most people use a mixture of the road and the path alongside the A90.


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## Mo1959 (18 Mar 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> There is a cycle path but more importantly there is a road that runs parallel all the way to Perth. It is national cycle route 77 (Sustrans). Most people use a mixture of the road and the path alongside the A90.


Never ventured that far yet but does sound like a good road to use. I nearly ended up on a slip road onto the A9 a few months ago when I was exploring but, needless to say, I turned back. Although we are legally allowed to use dual carriageways, I really don't think drivers even expect to see cyclists on them so are probably not particularly looking out for them.


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## 4F (18 Mar 2013)

Mo1959 said:


> Although we are legally allowed to use dual carriageways, I really don't think drivers even expect to see cyclists on them so are probably not particularly looking out for them.


 
I think in essence that is the issue.


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## Pedrosanchezo (18 Mar 2013)

Mo1959 said:


> Never ventured that far yet but does sound like a good road to use. I nearly ended up on a slip road onto the A9 a few months ago when I was exploring but, needless to say, I turned back. Although we are legally allowed to use dual carriageways, I really don't think drivers even expect to see cyclists on them so are probably not particularly looking out for them.


Yeh don't go onto the A9. It's just as bad. 

Though i've seen plenty cyclists using it. Apparently the cycle route next to it is too long a diversion.


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## HLaB (18 Mar 2013)

I ended up on a dual carriage way section of the A92 dual carriageway (Glenrothes to Kirkcaldy) after taking a wron turn at one of the many roundabouts in Glenrothes, unfortunately I cant see a similar mistake having been made on the A90 and unless I wrong I cant remember the Carse Road being too bad an alternative or much longer.


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## fullcycle (18 Mar 2013)

such a shame to hear RIP and many condolences to his friends and family


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## User6179 (18 Mar 2013)

There was a guy on here last year talking about A9/90 as part of the route for LEJOG and I thought I would rather not do LEJOG if I had to go on this road.

I once cycled the cycle track at the side of the dual carrigeway near blackford for under a mile and that was quite bad being 3ft from lorries flying past.


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## Boris Bajic (18 Mar 2013)

I used to commute (not every journey) on the A40 between Gloucester and Cheltenham, where it is an NSL dual-carriageway.

My condolences to the family and friends of the bereaved, but I rather liked it and still ride on it, although not for commuting.

On a charity ride with my daughter a year or so back, we covered very many miles on NSL dual-carriageway. We occasionally had the wheelnuts of artics rather closer to our elbows than seemed appropriate, but I didn't feel I was exposing her to any outrageous peril. There are roads where I'd rather not ride, but NSL dual-carriageways are not one. I confess I do not know the road where this rider died. 

It is dreadful when somebody dies or is seriously hurt in an accident, but I'm not sure there is a solid case for avoiding this sort of road.


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## Pedrosanchezo (18 Mar 2013)

Eddy said:


> There was a guy on here last year talking about A9/90 as part of the route for LEJOG and I thought I would rather not do LEJOG if I had to go on this road.
> 
> I once cycled the cycle track at the side of the dual carrigeway near blackford for under a mile and that was quite bad being 3ft from lorries flying past.


Yeh that's part of the south A9. Not as bad as the North but it's still nuts.


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## Pedrosanchezo (18 Mar 2013)

Boris Bajic said:


> I used to commute (not every journey) on the A40 between Gloucester and Cheltenham, where it is an NSL dual-carriageway.
> 
> My condolences to the family and friends of the bereaved, but I rather liked it and still ride on it, although not for commuting.
> 
> ...


It is all about the road i think. Some may be okay but others not. I wouldn't like to think that some cyclists think that ALL dual carriageways are safe. 
I must admit though that if Lorries were that close to me i would feel slightly uneasy. Kind of putting your trust in their driving. If they slip up it's not going to end well......


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## Pedrosanchezo (18 Mar 2013)

Eddy said:


> There was a guy on here last year talking about A9/90 as part of the route for LEJOG and I thought I would rather not do LEJOG if I had to go on this road.
> 
> I once cycled the cycle track at the side of the dual carrigeway near blackford for under a mile and that was quite bad being 3ft from lorries flying past.


Seriously?? I can't believe that an event like this would be on dual carriageway without escort?? Sheer madness if it was.


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## albion (18 Mar 2013)

Covering a distances I find dual carriages with shoulder often fit in with my route plan.

In common with a lot of cyclists I do make use of the A189 towards Blyth.
It has a good sized lined verge which until recent makes it comparatively safe.

However the cycle lane like shoulder now has so much mud it is currently too dangerous to use.


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## User6179 (18 Mar 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> Seriously?? I can't believe that an event like this would be on dual carriageway without escort?? Sheer madness if it was.


 
Thats what I thought!!


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## Pedrosanchezo (18 Mar 2013)

Eddy said:


> Thats what I thought!!


I've actually just found the thread. Yup the A9 from inverness  in to Perth then the M90 to Edinburgh. Double


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## User6179 (18 Mar 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> I've actually just found the thread. Yup the A9 from inverness  in to Perth then the M90 to Edinburgh. Double


 
Holy £$%$, thats insane !

There was something in the back of mind saying it was recumbent bikes  also but that might of been another thread.


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## User16625 (18 Mar 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> A cyclist has been killed on the dual carriageway running from Dundee to Perth. First off i would like to extend my deepest sympathys to the family and any friends.
> 
> I must ask though, again, why cyclists continue to use dual carriageways when there is a reasonable option!?! There is a cycle route from Dundee to Perth which is all good A road. There is also a cycle path on the A90 which runs beside the motorway.
> Whether the driver of the lorry is to blame or the cyclist is to blame makes no difference - *it could have all been avoided if we, as cyclists, choose the safest option and not necessarily the quickest.*
> ...


 
Couldnt agree more. For the safest possible option we shouldnt even bother using the roads anyway:

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1q3LV2yyzJg


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## 400bhp (18 Mar 2013)

gaz said:


> If it has national speed limit applied to it. *Duel* carriage ways can be limited to any speed, for example.. This duel carriage way is a 40mph limit. In fact there are several duel carriageways i know of which are 30mph limit.


 
DuAL

Sorry, it was bugging me.


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## gaz (18 Mar 2013)

400bhp said:


> DuAL
> 
> Sorry, it was bugging me.


In souf landon it's duel.


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## Brandane (18 Mar 2013)

I used to drive an artic on this road, 4 days out of 8, for 6 years when I had a job driving between Glasgow Airport and Aberdeen Airport for an air freight company. That road is not safe for cyclists, and I used to really worry when I saw the odd tourer who had ventured onto it. It carries a lot of heavy lorries, and the lanes are only just wide enough for 2 lorries with not much margin for error.
IMHO we (cyclists) should not be allowed on trunk roads such as this, in the same way as we are not allowed on motorways. Dual carriageway trunk roads are in effect motorways without the same safety features such as a hard shoulder. They have the same national speed limits as motorways (except for HGVs *), so whatever genius thought it would be a good idea to ban cyclists from motorways but not routes like the A90 needs to take another look. Just crazy.

* HGV speed limit on an NSL dual carriageway is 50 mph but we all know the drivers run on the limiter at 90 kph (56 mph). On a motorway, the NSL for HGVs is 60 mph, which seems odd when they are still limited to 56 mph.


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## HLaB (18 Mar 2013)

I'm not sure where the boundaries lie (its probably due to speed/flow) but some dual carriageways are better than single IMO as less driver frustration builds up, as there is little problem in overtaking but the A90 definitely lies at the other end of the scale its akin to a motorway and some places is


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## Joe D (18 Mar 2013)

I wonder if the weather was a factor? I'm familiar with that road as a car passenger and almost all of it is quite exposed. The weather up here yesterday and Saturday was quite bad at times with rain, sleet and snow being carried on strong winds.


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## HLaB (18 Mar 2013)

Joe D said:


> I wonder if the weather was a factor? I'm familiar with that road as a car passenger and almost all of it is quite exposed. The weather up here yesterday and Saturday was quite bad at times with rain, sleet and snow being carried on strong winds.


I hope the poor sole never made the decision the Carse road would be too dodgy in the conditions and chose the main road instead; not to the same degree but Ive made similar decisions in the past


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## Nebulous (18 Mar 2013)

That is a particularly bad road. I know someone who drives from Aberdeen -> Blairgowrie -> Perth just to avoid Dundee to Perth. I try to avoid a lot of main roads on my bike and plan routes around them.

Having said that though, we did a 50 mile TT on the A90 from roughly Stonehaven to Stracathro and back last year and it worked ok. It was on a Sunday morning, with lots of signs up about a cycling event, which must have helped.

Anyway condolences to the man's family. However it happened it's a sair heart for somebody.


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## tug benson (18 Mar 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> There is a cycle path but more importantly there is a road that runs parallel all the way to Perth. It is national cycle route 77 (Sustrans). Most people use a mixture of the road and the path alongside the A90.


 
Out of intrest if you were cycling from perth to dundee what way would you go?

we have a caravan just outside st andrews and i was thinking about cycling up to it, but going up through perth and dundee


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## Pedrosanchezo (18 Mar 2013)

tug benson said:


> Out of intrest if you were cycling from perth to dundee what way would you go?
> 
> we have a caravan just outside st andrews and i was thinking about cycling up to it, but going up through perth and dundee


 
Several routes to St Andrews. Both along the Tay but either side of it. Stunning rides with a few Strava segs too if you fancied a go.

Perth to dundee route

Perth to St Andrews via Newburgh

The Perth Dundee route isn't the most direct but it's probably the most enjoyable. The Newburgh way is very scenic.


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## tug benson (18 Mar 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> Several routes to St Andrews. Both along the Tay but either side of it. Stunning rides with a few Strava segs too if you fancied a go.
> 
> Perth to dundee route
> 
> ...


 
thanks...

noted for when we get better weather


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## Pedrosanchezo (18 Mar 2013)

Joe D said:


> I wonder if the weather was a factor? I'm familiar with that road as a car passenger and almost all of it is quite exposed. The weather up here yesterday and Saturday was quite bad at times with rain, sleet and snow being carried on strong winds.


Yeh i went out for a quick 20 miler and it was grim. I was on the Carse back roads though. Hailstone in knee length shorts. Painful. It wasn't particularly windy but it wasn't pleasant.


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## HLaB (18 Mar 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> Several routes to St Andrews. Both along the Tay but either side of it. Stunning rides with a few Strava segs too if you fancied a go.
> 
> Perth to dundee route
> 
> ...


Ive always went over Kinoull hill (Route 77); I'll have to give a route by Rait and/or Kilspindie


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## Pedrosanchezo (18 Mar 2013)

HLaB said:


> I hope the poor sole never made the decision the Carse road would be too dodgy in the conditions and chose the main road instead; not to the same degree but Ive made similar decisions in the past


Hope not as the roads were rideable. I was on them as i got bored of the break in MSR. Stayed away from the hills though as i wasn't dressed for a long haul. Bloody cold.


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## Pedrosanchezo (18 Mar 2013)

HLaB said:


> Ive always went over Kinoull hill (Route 77); I'll have to give a route by Rait and/or Kilspindie


You can do yeh but as you will notice it is slightly smaller B road-esque.
Rait is a fantastic descent (i wonder who has that kom?) and you can also continue up to Balbeggie and past to Abernyte. All of which basically takes you back on to the flat side of the Carse, which in turn takes you to dundee. Really is some amazing cycling round the Carse.

Oh and you are welcome round anytime. A mini CC ride.


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## tug benson (18 Mar 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> You can do yeh but as you will notice it is slightly smaller B road-esque.
> Rait is a fantastic descent (i wonder who has that kom?) and you can also continue up to Balbeggie and past to Abernyte. All of which basically takes you back on to the flat side of the Carse, which in turn takes you to dundee. Really is some amazing cycling round the Carse.
> 
> *Oh and you are welcome round anytime. A mini CC ride*.


 
Start a thread then


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## Pedrosanchezo (18 Mar 2013)

tug benson said:


> Start a thread then


Lets make that a summer ride then shall we. You lot can come over and nick all my KOM's.


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## tug benson (18 Mar 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> Lets make that a summer ride then shall we. You lot can come over and nick all my KOM's.


 
I done the st andrews sportive last year, great part of the country up that way..


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## HLaB (18 Mar 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> You can do yeh but as you will notice it is slightly smaller B road-esque.
> Rait is a fantastic descent (i wonder who has that kom?) and you can also continue up to Balbeggie and past to Abernyte. All of which basically takes you back on to the flat side of the Carse, which in turn takes you to dundee. Really is some amazing cycling round the Carse.
> 
> Oh and you are welcome round anytime. A mini CC ride.


I used to be up your way at least once a week last year, I dont get up to often now  If I did your KOM would be safe from me I'm a wuss descending


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## Pedrosanchezo (18 Mar 2013)

tug benson said:


> I done the st andrews sportive last year, great part of the country up that way..


Yup that's just over the Tay - the route that is. I am doing it this year. 

As i said above, the whole area really is fantastic for cycling and it's such a shame that some consider routes like the A90 safe or quicker. If we care enough to cycle then we should try and enjoy it whilst we can. 

I'll get a ride sorted over my way for early summer. I know you all love hills so i'll make sure and add plenty of them.


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## Pedrosanchezo (18 Mar 2013)

HLaB said:


> I used to be up your way at least once a week last year, I dont get up to often now  If I did your KOM would be safe from me I'm a wuss descending


Well give me a shout if you are ever planning a trip.

A misspent youth consisting of bmx riding and mountain biking has helped me hold my nerve on the descents but i still get the odd moment where i think of all that could go wrong during a 50mph+ downhill - In my lycra!  

I do believe i have seen your name crop up on a few segments up my way. Might i also add that your Etape link is not a ride ridden by a slouch!


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## HLaB (18 Mar 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> I do believe i have seen your name crop up on a few segments up my way. Might i also add that your Etape link is not a ride ridden by a slouch!


Did 3/4 of it on my own then a Glasgow South rider invited me too join his peleton; I was on for a better time the following year but some idiot was playing with carpet tacks. As you'll probably know though its not a hard course, flat for long sections and the climb up the easier side of Schiallion.


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## Pedrosanchezo (18 Mar 2013)

HLaB said:


> Did 3/4 of it on my own then a Glasgow South rider invited me too join his peleton; I was on for a better time the following year but some idiot was playing with carpet tacks. As you'll probably know though its not a hard course, flat for long sections and the climb up the easier side of Schiallion.


Looking forward to it. Goal is to be in the top 100. If you know the number of entrants then you know that's not easy. That puts me in the sub 4 hour category and then i also need that little bit more again. I'll let you know how that turns out. 

I actually know that's a pretty doable task. The kinross Sportive is what's giving me the cold sweats. My club have decided to separate it's riders into groups in terms of speed. There is about 4 or 5 of us that are going to go 100% for it and there is just too much climbing for it to not hurt like hell. I'll be a shadow of myself after this i am sure of it.


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## HLaB (18 Mar 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> Looking forward to it. Goal is to be in the top 100. If you know the number of entrants then you know that's not easy. That puts me in the sub 4 hour category and then i also need that little bit more again. I'll let you know how that turns out.
> 
> I actually know that's a pretty doable task. The kinross Sportive is what's giving me the cold sweats. My club have decided to separate it's riders into groups in terms of speed. There is about 4 or 5 of us that are going to go 100% for it and there is just too much climbing for it to not hurt like hell. I'll be a shadow of myself after this i am sure of it.


You'll ace it. I done them both before. Some ned in Clackmannan burst open my ankle the day before the etape (chucked a bottle at my ankle) and I dragged my brother round his first sportive (always on the front) on my winter bike and we averaged 18.3mph without stopping. The following spring I also done the Kinross with him, had to wait a bit on the hills this time and did feed stops, we only averaged 15.7mph, although I had been working down south with no access to a bike at first so trained little. Weather was almost identical on both rides, however. Hopefully that'll give you an idea to as how they compare.


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## MrGrumpy (19 Mar 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> A cyclist has been killed on the dual carriageway running from Dundee to Perth. First off i would like to extend my deepest sympathys to the family and any friends.
> 
> I must ask though, again, why cyclists continue to use dual carriageways when there is a reasonable option!?! There is a cycle route from Dundee to Perth which is all good A road. There is also a cycle path on the A90 which runs beside the motorway.
> Whether the driver of the lorry is to blame or the cyclist is to blame makes no difference - it could have all been avoided if we, as cyclists, choose the safest option and not necessarily the quickest.
> ...


 
what they should do is ban cyclists and peds like they did on the A90 south of the FRB. I used to use that road in the early days but to think of using it now would be nuts!! It is just not worth the risk!


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## green1 (19 Mar 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> I've actually just found the thread. Yup the A9 from inverness  in to Perth then the *M90 to Edinburgh*. Double


That would be against the law.


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## HLaB (19 Mar 2013)

MrGrumpy said:


> what they should do is ban cyclists and peds like they did on the A90 south of the FRB. I used to use that road in the early days but to think of using it now would be nuts!! It is just not worth the risk!


IIRC that took a similar death unfortunately before they implemented the change. Very rarily though when I used to commute by the A90 cycle path (which is poor tbh: narrow and below the carriageway making it subject to ice and placing cyclist at the height to be dazzled by car lights) I would see folk prefering to cycle along the A90  Fortunately, I was directed to the QEY road and avoid that section; its a bit of a detour but worth it IMO for the peace of mind and a good hill (Standing Stane Rd)  .


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## Pedrosanchezo (19 Mar 2013)

green1 said:


> That would be against the law.


Indeed, though IMO it is not the law that would be my main concern! It would be my life.


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## Pedrosanchezo (19 Mar 2013)

HLaB said:


> You'll ace it. I done them both before. Some ned in Clackmannan burst open my ankle the day before the etape (chucked a bottle at my ankle) *and I dragged my brother round his first sportive (always on the front)* on my winter bike and we averaged 18.3mph without stopping. The following spring I also done the Kinross with him, had to wait a bit on the hills this time and did feed stops, we only averaged 15.7mph, although I had been working down south with no access to a bike at first so trained little. Weather was almost identical on both rides, however. Hopefully that'll give you an idea to as how they compare.


 
Imagine making your brother ride his first sportive at the front!


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## Strathlubnaig (19 Mar 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> A cyclist has been killed on the dual carriageway running from Dundee to Perth. First off i would like to extend my deepest sympathys to the family and any friends.
> 
> I must ask though, again, why cyclists continue to use dual carriageways when there is a reasonable option!?! There is a cycle route from Dundee to Perth which is all good A road. There is also a cycle path on the A90 which runs beside the motorway.
> Whether the driver of the lorry is to blame or the cyclist is to blame makes no difference - it could have all been avoided if we, as cyclists, choose the safest option and not necessarily the quickest.
> ...


When I read of this my reaction was the same as yourself, sympathy and sadness but immediately wondered why anyone would choose to cycle that bit of road, knowing it well myself, and as you say there are viable alternatives. Such a shame all in.


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## MrGrumpy (19 Mar 2013)

HLaB said:


> IIRC that took a similar death unfortunately before they implemented the change. Very rarily though when I used to commute by the A90 cycle path (which is poor tbh: narrow and below the carriageway making it subject to ice and placing cyclist at the height to be dazzled by car lights) I would see folk prefering to cycle along the A90  Fortunately, I was directed to the QEY road and avoid that section; its a bit of a detour but worth it IMO for the peace of mind and a good hill (Standing Stane Rd)  .


 
the path is about to be upgraded next month so will be closed for 6 weeks. It will be widened and brought level with the main road at that section you are talking about. Going QEY is about half a mile longer so not much in it and of course it has that wee hill which burns the legs somewhat. My route depends on the wind, QEY and an easterly is hard going so go the A90 on these occasions.


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## Pedrosanchezo (19 Mar 2013)

Strathlubnaig said:


> When I read of this my reaction was the same as yourself, sympathy and sadness but immediately wondered why anyone would choose to cycle that bit of road, knowing it well myself, and as you say there are viable alternatives. Such a shame all in.


I was almost annoyed i think when i first heard. Seemed unnecessary. The man maybe rode the route daily or decided to ride it, as Hlab suggested, to avoid country roads in difficult conditions. I suspect the former to be more likely imo.


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## Pedrosanchezo (19 Mar 2013)

MrGrumpy said:


> the path is about to be upgraded next month so will be closed for 6 weeks. It will be widened and brought level with the main road at that section you are talking about. Going QEY is about half a mile longer so not much in it and of course it has *that wee hill* which burns the legs somewhat. My route depends on the wind, QEY and an easterly is hard going so go the A90 on these occasions.


Wee hill?? Do you mean Glencarse? That can burn the legs indeed. 20% gradient. A fun Strava segment for the masochistic. 

Do you travel these roads often? If so what's your preferred route/s?


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## MrGrumpy (19 Mar 2013)

http://app.strava.com/segments/1274371 its that one, short sharp, but if you have been doing the old time trial http://app.strava.com/segments/1625429 then hitting that climb is bugger


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## Pedrosanchezo (19 Mar 2013)

MrGrumpy said:


> http://app.strava.com/segments/1274371 its that one, short sharp, but if you have been doing the old time trial http://app.strava.com/segments/1625429 then hitting that climb is bugger


You may be in Edinburgh here my good man. 

Dundee to Perth and inbetween is the A90. Are you meaning the M90?


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## MrGrumpy (20 Mar 2013)

I am indeed in Edinburgh, I mentioned the A90 between the FRB and Crammond was closed to cyclists, it was common route used by bike back by me in the late 90s. However a few years ago cyclists were band. Just to stop any confusion, you have a stretch of the A90 and so do we and inbetween is the M90


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## lejogger (20 Mar 2013)

I've ridden NSL dual carriageways on many occassions. In fact, to get the the famous Eureka Cafe for a Sunday club ride, taking the dual carriageway is the only feasible route for some. Yes it's fast, but many motorists drive those sort of speeds on 40/50 and 60 mph roads regardless.

By their very nature, there's something comforting about knowing that approaching vehicles will usually have a whole other free lane that they can pull into to overtake, rather than squeezing past on a narrow single carriageway.

When I rode LEJOG in 2009 the entire first day was 100 miles of A30. It wasn't pleasant, but it was the fastest route from A to B. During a time restricted event, sometimes you feel the need to get some fast, direct miles in, and I'd do the same again. Usually on the busiest of roads there's a hard shoulder that you can sit in, and the biggest danger is usually making sure you effectively manage crossing the on/off slip roads.

I probably can't remember all the other major DCs that I've utilised, but they certainly include the A55 to St Asaph and the A470 to Cardiff.The A6 in the Lake District is DC at times also. 

Unless there are specific bike restricted sections I don't see the harm in riding them. We see too many injuries/fatalities on minor roads to state that this sad incident is directly related to carriageway type rather than driver/cyclist error that could happen on any road at any speed.


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## MrGrumpy (20 Mar 2013)

you make a fair point any shared road is going to have risk . The unfortunate thing is that alot of drivers on the road have forgotten or have chosen to forget the space that should be given to a cyclist IMO. Hence we have incidents mentioned in the original post. I commute regular into Edinburgh City and its alarming the behaviours! The Gyle is full of plonkers IMO as thats the worst part of my journey, regular cutting in to turn left.


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## Huan Andol (20 Mar 2013)

lejogger said:


> I've ridden NSL dual carriageways on many occassions. In fact, to get the the famous Eureka Cafe for a Sunday club ride, taking the dual carriageway is the only feasible route for some. Yes it's fast, but many motorists drive those sort of speeds on 40/50 and 60 mph roads regardless.
> 
> By their very nature, there's something comforting about knowing that approaching vehicles will usually have a* whole other free lane* that they can pull into to overtake, rather than squeezing past on a narrow single carriageway.


 
Dual carriageways don't always have a second lane. There is a NSL dual carriage way which forms part of the Pilgrim's Way in Kent which has only one lane in either direction. The "dual" part just means the different directions of traffic are separated by a physical barrier (could be grass, armco, hedge etc). The number of lanes in either direction is not important for the dual carriage way classification.


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## Pedrosanchezo (20 Mar 2013)

lejogger said:


> I've ridden NSL dual carriageways on many occassions. In fact, to get the the famous Eureka Cafe for a Sunday club ride, taking the dual carriageway is the only feasible route for some. Yes it's fast, but many motorists drive those sort of speeds on 40/50 and 60 mph roads regardless.
> 
> By their very nature, there's something comforting about knowing that approaching vehicles will usually have a whole other free lane that they can pull into to overtake, rather than squeezing past on a narrow single carriageway.
> 
> ...


 
Potentially much more traffic on dual carriageway and almost always moving faster. You don't often see 3 or 4 hgv's riding back to back on normal roads but this is quite common on dual carriageway. If any of these decide to pass at an unsafe distance then you may be put in to harms way as the driver behind won't see you. 
There is also the serious issue in that drivers simply don't expect bikes to be on dual carriageways. Drivers mostly don't expect to have to slow down much for anything on these roads and are rather worryingly in auto pilot mode. I've seen so many near accidents with tractors with drivers locking up and swerving to avoid. With a cyclist they may just choose to pass extremely close. 
Bottom line is you just don't know and if there is an alternative then i would strongly suggest cyclists use it. If someone is confident enough, and willing to take the risks involved, then it is not illegal and by all means go for it. 

I try to stay as safe as i can on the bike, within reason. This leads to my choice of very rarely using dual carriageway where other options are available.


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## lejogger (20 Mar 2013)

Huan Andol said:


> Dual carriageways don't always have a second lane.


I did say 'usually'... but don't let that get in the way of your pedantism


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## lejogger (20 Mar 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> Potentially much more traffic on dual carriageway and almost always moving faster. You don't often see 3 or 4 hgv's riding back to back on normal roads but this is quite common on dual carriageway. If any of these decide to pass at an unsafe distance then you may be put in to harms way as the driver behind won't see you.
> There is also the serious issue in that drivers simply don't expect bikes to be on dual carriageways. Drivers mostly don't expect to have to slow down much for anything on these roads and are rather worryingly in auto pilot mode. I've seen so many near accidents with tractors with drivers locking up and swerving to avoid. With a cyclist they may just choose to pass extremely close.
> Bottom line is you just don't know and if there is an alternative then i would strongly suggest cyclists use it. If someone is confident enough, and willing to take the risks involved, then it is not illegal and by all means go for it.
> 
> I try to stay as safe as i can on the bike, within reason. This leads to my choice of very rarely using dual carriageway where other options are available.


 
Of course I see what you're saying Pedro... I'm sure that some dual carriageways are among some of the most dangerous roads to cycle on in the country. My point was that because they often have a second lane or a hard shoulder, fewer sharp bends and lesser gradients etc you can sometimes be gifted the luxury of more passing room, a smoother surface to ride on, better visibility from a greater distance, higher average speeds etc than you might on a busy single lane A road, or even a very minor but twisty NSL country lane.

That doesn't mean that I'm saying they should always be chosen over an alternative route. There are many reasons why the opposite will be true. Often the hard shoulder is littered with obstacles, the density of the traffic may make riding completely unsafe.

Sometimes they will be unsuitable, sometimes they will not.


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## lejogger (20 Mar 2013)

I've just realised that my avatar picture is of me fixing a puncture by the side of a duel carriageway on a stag do jaunt down to Cardiff last summer!


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## Brandane (20 Mar 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> You don't often see 3 or 4 hgv's riding back to back on normal roads but this is quite common on dual carriageway.


 
This is where the real danger arises for cyclists. Due to the low speed differential between HGVs, they tend to take a long time to pass each other. So when you get 4 HGVs in a row, and #4 at the back of the line decides to overtake the 3 in front of him who are going about 0.5 mph slower, you have the following situation:
The pack of HGVs moving at 56 mph catch up with a cyclist. Front HGV sees the cyclist and moves into lane 2 to pass. HGV #2 then sees the cyclist, and likewise moves into lane 2 to pass. By this time they are very close to the cyclist. HGV #3 only sees the cyclist when he gets a view up the inside of HGV #2, because they have been tailgating (as they do, due to speed limiters). By this time HGV #4, who cannot see the cyclist as he/she is obscured by #1 and #2, is alongside #3. HGV #3 cannot move out because of #4. HGV #3 weighs 44 tonnes and is moving at 56 mph with a cyclist moving at 15 mph in front of him.......


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## Pedrosanchezo (20 Mar 2013)

Brandane said:


> This is where the real danger arises for cyclists. Due to the low speed differential between HGVs, they tend to take a long time to pass each other. So when you get 4 HGVs in a row, and #4 at the back of the line decides to overtake the 3 in front of him who are going about 0.5 mph slower, you have the following situation:
> The pack of HGVs moving at 56 mph catch up with a cyclist. Front HGV sees the cyclist and moves into lane 2 to pass. HGV #2 then sees the cyclist, and likewise moves into lane 2 to pass. By this time they are very close to the cyclist. HGV #3 only sees the cyclist when he gets a view up the inside of HGV #2, because they have been tailgating (as they do, due to speed limiters). By this time HGV #4, who cannot see the cyclist as he/she is obscured by #1 and #2, is alongside #3. HGV #3 cannot move out because of #4. HGV #3 weighs 44 tonnes and is moving at 56 mph with a cyclist moving at 15 mph in front of him.......


And how often do you see HGV's anticipate this and brake to the speed of the cyclist|? I'm still waiting for this phenomena..............


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## Brandane (20 Mar 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> And how often do you see HGV's anticipate this and brake to the speed of the cyclist|? I'm still waiting for this phenomena..............


 
Problem being in my scenario is that #1 doesn't have any cause to slow down as he knows he can move out to pass quite safely. #2 doesn't have time to slow down as he only sees the cyclist after #1 has pulled out to pass it, but #2 still has a space to pull out to his right. #3 doesn't have a chance to either slow down or move to the right .


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## srw (20 Mar 2013)

Brandane said:


> Problem being in my scenario is that #1 doesn't have any cause to slow down as he knows he can move out to pass quite safely. #2 doesn't have time to slow down as he only sees the cyclist after #1 has pulled out to pass it, but #2 still has a space to pull out to his right. #3 doesn't have a chance to either slow down or move to the right .


And I'm sure you can point to the news reports which demonstrate that this is a real issue rather than just a made-up imaginary thing.

Dual carriageways are sometimes safe, sometimes horrible. It depends on too many factors - time of day, weather conditions, light conditions, width of the road - to be universal about them.


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## Brandane (20 Mar 2013)

srw said:


> And I'm sure you can point to the news reports which demonstrate that this is a real issue rather than just a made-up imaginary thing.


 
It was a made up scenario, but a very realistic one. I can point you to an artic driver with 8 years full time experience, 6 years of which was spent driving on the A90 most working days between Glasgow Airport and Aberdeen Airport. That driver is me, and I can assure you that the above scenario is a very real possibility. It is only down to the lack of cyclists on roads such as the A90 that it does not happen often.


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## Herbie (20 Mar 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> A cyclist has been killed on the dual carriageway running from Dundee to Perth. First off i would like to extend my deepest sympathys to the family and any friends.
> 
> I must ask though, again, why cyclists continue to use dual carriageways when there is a reasonable option!?! There is a cycle route from Dundee to Perth which is all good A road. There is also a cycle path on the A90 which runs beside the motorway.
> Whether the driver of the lorry is to blame or the cyclist is to blame makes no difference - it could have all been avoided if we, as cyclists, choose the safest option and not necessarily the quickest.
> ...


 I totally agree with you.I see cyclists on the dualled bit of the A96 between Aberdeen and Inverurie and even in the dark....someone folk have a death wish...sorry to hear about that fatality though


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## Twilkes (20 Mar 2013)

I drive/bus the stretch of road between Perth and Stirling, and I wouldn't cycle on it - I don't think it's the speed, it's because the lanes aren't very wide. Even in a wee Honda Jazz it's still a bit claustrophobic overtaking an HGV in its own lane. On the other hand, I remember cycling the A30 towards Land's End with no problems at all, because it was a fairly new road with wide lanes and good sight lines, and a couple of feet of tarmac to the left of the white lines which I see on most newly built roads.

There's been a handful of times I've cycled on a road I shouldn'a cycled on, and I realised it very quickly - it's not a nice feeling waiting for the next slip road to make an appearance.


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## snorri (20 Mar 2013)

lejogger said:


> Sometimes they will be unsuitable, sometimes they will not.


............and that is the crucial point.


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## Pedrosanchezo (21 Mar 2013)

Brandane said:


> It was a made up scenario, but a very realistic one. I can point you to an artic driver with 8 years full time experience, 6 years of which was spent driving on the A90 most working days between Glasgow Airport and Aberdeen Airport. That driver is me, and I can assure you that the above scenario is a very real possibility.* It is only down to the lack of cyclists on roads such as the A90 that it does not happen often*.


 
And long may it last.


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## Crankarm (21 Mar 2013)

4F said:


> Personally I avoid main dual carriageways wherever possible. I have ridden on the A14 a couple of times and even though both times were on relatively quiet Saturday's there were still a lot of HGV's and it is not an experience that I enjoyed, nor one that I would wish to do again.


 
You're the nutter I have seen riding along the A14  . You have a death wish.

I try to avoid driving along it let alone cycling which I would never ever do anyway. Madness to do so. Anyway there is now the GBW to ride along instead so no excuse cycling along the A14.


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## Huan Andol (21 Mar 2013)

lejogger said:


> I did say 'usually'... but don't let that get in the way of your pedantism


You said "by their very nature" which is wrong, but hey, you backpedal all you want in a vain attempt to make yourself look more intelligent.


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## lejogger (21 Mar 2013)

Huan Andol said:


> You said "by their very nature" which is wrong, but hey, you backpedal all you want in a vain attempt to make yourself look more intelligent.


Haha. Ok Huan. 

I've probably not studied duel carriageways in quite as much detail as you obviously have. 

Your knowledge and wisdom seem to far outweigh mine in this essential matter. 

I'm pretty sure that a rather large percentage of us uneducated forum users would have wrongly believed that a duel carriageway is a road that has two lanes in either direction separated by a central reservation, and like me are probably very grateful for your correction. 

Cheers


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## Huan Andol (21 Mar 2013)

... oh, and it's DUAL not duel, but I would have hoped you would have picked that up by now.


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## glasgowcyclist (21 Mar 2013)

lejogger said:


> I did say 'usually'... but don't let that get in the way of your pedantism


 
It's _pedantry_, not pedantism.

It's ok, I know where my coat is.


GC


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## 4F (21 Mar 2013)

Crankarm said:


> You're the nutter I have seen riding along the A14  . You have a death wish.
> 
> I try to avoid driving along it let alone cycling which I would never ever do anyway. Madness to do so. Anyway there is now the GBW to ride along instead so no excuse cycling along the A14.


 
I have to say the view at the top of the Orwell Bridge is really nice  Thankfully there is a footpath there to one side of an armco barrier to protect you from the constant stream of HGV's. As I said both times were on a Saturday afternoon so it was relatively quiet, not an experience however I will be rushing back to do and never one I would attempt on a weekday


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## lejogger (21 Mar 2013)

glasgowcyclist said:


> It's _pedantry_, not pedantism.
> 
> It's ok, I know where my coat is.
> 
> ...


Argh! I'm under fire from all directions!


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## Pedrosanchezo (21 Mar 2013)

Spotted a cyclist riding the A90 this morning, in the snow and 20mph winds. He was cycling an old road bike in the white line space between the cycle path and the main road. To further explain this space is about two feet wide and appears and disappears randomly. The cycle path was obviously covered in snow but vehicles were passing him in the same lane as he was essentially off the road by around a foot. This led to HGV's etc all passing within a whisker of his right arm.

Please click the correct option below:
A) Balls of steel
B) Death wish
C) Completely fine
D) All of the above if you live in crazy land


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## 4F (21 Mar 2013)

A and B


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## lejogger (21 Mar 2013)

Huan Andol said:


> ... oh, and it's DUAL not duel, but I would have hoped you would have picked that up by now.


It seems I've put in a fair smattering of both in my posts to cover all options!

I'm usually pretty pedantic about spelling and grammar myself, so I have no option but to hang my head in shame and leave this thread quietly by the back door.


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## Pedrosanchezo (21 Mar 2013)

lejogger said:


> It seems I've put in a fair smattering of both in my posts to cover all options!
> 
> I'm usually pretty pedantic about spelling and grammar myself, so I have no option but to hang my head in shame and leave this thread quietly by the back door.


My threads are much friendlier than that. 

Simply go and stand in the corner for 20 minutes, think about what you have done and come back again.


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