# Silly Americans



## Strathlubnaig (14 Jan 2016)

https://momentummag.com/a-proposed-missouri-bill-would-require-cyclists-to-fly-a-fluorescent-flag/


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## ColinJ (14 Jan 2016)

To be fair, it is probably "Silly American" since (hopefully!) he is the only person likely to vote for it!

Perhaps they will vote for an amended flag height of, say, 5 ft?

Whatever the height, it isn't a measure aimed at encouraging cycling!


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## Keith Oates (14 Jan 2016)

The idiot that is proposing the flag has already had a previous attempt in banning bicycles from some roads and so this is another attempt to do that. I just hope no UK MP tries to copy him.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Mo1959 (14 Jan 2016)

Strathlubnaig said:


> https://momentummag.com/a-proposed-missouri-bill-would-require-cyclists-to-fly-a-fluorescent-flag/


Can think of a few places I'd like to stick a 15 foot flag and I think I'd start with up his a**e.


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## Drago (14 Jan 2016)

A flag... with a target on it!


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## bancrobba (14 Jan 2016)

Mo1959 said:


> Can think of a few places I'd like to stick a 15 foot flag and I think I'd start with up his a**e.


Sideways?


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## sidevalve (14 Jan 2016)

Actually a friend of mine DOES fly a flag on the back of his bike. He gets a lot of laughs and waves but as he says - if they have a laugh and or wave he knows they've seen him. Not exactly the same but better than trying to blend in just to prove a point.


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## Dogtrousers (14 Jan 2016)

A pedant writes ... A _*fluorescent *_flag? Really? One that actually absorbs then re-emits light?


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## Spinney (14 Jan 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> A pedant writes ... A _*fluorescent *_flag? Really? One that actually absorbs then re-emits light?


He's a rethuglican. Science is a dirty word, and it would do his reputation no good (amongst fellow bible-bashing rednecks) to actually use a scientific word correctly. Except he wouldn't know the correct meaning if it bit him in the bum!


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## PeteXXX (14 Jan 2016)

I would guess that drivers would be so busy looking at the flag that they'd forget that there was a bike zip-tied to the other end of it, and _bang!!! 
_
Will the loony be recommending a luminous flag for night riding?


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## PeteXXX (14 Jan 2016)

[QUOTE 4104351, member: 43827"]It doesn't surprise me. A couple of years ago we were in Jackson, Wyoming and, at street crossing points, they had containers at each side with bright flags in. Pedestrians were supposed to pick up a flag, hold it up when crossing and replace it in the container on the other side when they had crossed.[/QUOTE]
Did people actually use them?


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## PaulSecteur (14 Jan 2016)

Im looking forward to the bill that requires cars to have someone walk in front of them with a flag.

Thats the future, that is.


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## Nigeyy (14 Jan 2016)

Oh you silly people living in the UK..... Clearly you have no idea of the American culture. The height of the flag is so the person with the rifle knows where you are when you hide behind a hill.


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## arch684 (14 Jan 2016)

15 ft above the road,so plan your route to avoid low bridges and how would i get the bike in the garage


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## Gravity Aided (14 Jan 2016)

Some of the posts on this forum are longer than this guys' bill. This fellow obviously knows nothing of cycling, and talks like a man with a pasteboard arse. I think they have a great deal more to worry about in the St. Louis Suburbs than 15 foot bicycle flags, and they should worry about the persecution of people of African American background, and how to solve that problem, before they worry about adding cyclists to the list of people they persecute.
(That was more wording than his bill, BTW. Troglodyte.)


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## Saluki (14 Jan 2016)

I have long held the theory that many Americans are a bit thick. This proposed bill doesn't dispel my theory at all.

(Some Americans are lovely though)


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## jefmcg (14 Jan 2016)

I think the law makers in Missouri should spend less time worrying about cyclists, and more time keeping toddlers away from guns.

Shootings by toddlers have happened in 24 states so far this year [2015]. Missouri has seen the most, with five separate incidents. 

Or indeed, keeping the police away from guns.


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## deptfordmarmoset (14 Jan 2016)

Spinney said:


> He's a rethuglican. Science is a dirty word, and it would do his reputation no good (amongst fellow bible-bashing rednecks) to actually use a scientific word correctly. Except he wouldn't know the correct meaning if it bit him in the bum!


A like for you, simply for introducing me to the word ''rethuglican.''


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## Spinney (14 Jan 2016)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> A like for you, simply for introducing me to the word ''rethuglican.''


Not my invention, sadly...


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## deptfordmarmoset (14 Jan 2016)

Spinney said:


> Not my invention, sadly...


Dog-whistle variation...


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## Licramite (14 Jan 2016)

I suppose you could fashion it as kite ?
My wonder is what's wrong with American cyclists, from the photo you have a road with double yellow lines in the middle - so no overtaking, you have lanes marked with white lines at least 2ft wide at either side of the road were vehicles won't go , you have cyclists in middle of bloody road ! - why haven't they looked at the road and moved over into the side beyond the white lines so as not to obstruct the traffic. - I can only assume its safer being in front of car as its more difficult to shoot forward than sideways from a moving vehicle.


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## Licramite (14 Jan 2016)

jefmcg said:


> I think the law makers in Missouri should spend less time worrying about cyclists, and more time keeping toddlers away from guns.
> 
> Shootings by toddlers have happened in 24 states so far this year [2015]. Missouri has seen the most, with five separate incidents.
> 
> Or indeed, keeping the police away from guns.


Yea pissing off a 4 year old can be really dangerous.
I'm with the RA on this - you need more guns - it should be a legal requirement everyone should carry a gun , toddlers single shot and working up to vehicle mounted artillery - America would be so much safer - as who the hell would go there!


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## jefmcg (14 Jan 2016)

Licramite said:


> I suppose you could fashion it as kite ?
> My wonder is what's wrong with American cyclists, from the photo you have a road with double yellow lines in the middle - so no overtaking, you have lanes marked with white lines at least 2ft wide at either side of the road were vehicles won't go , you have cyclists in middle of bloody road ! - why haven't they looked at the road and moved over into the side beyond the white lines so as not to obstruct the traffic. - I can only assume its safer being in front of car as its more difficult to shoot forward than sideways from a moving vehicle.


No, it because the cars never go there, so crap will be swept of the lanes, and then stay in that area, leading this .....


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTLSgne_TWQ


The cyclist would presumably move carefully into area to let a car pass.


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## Gravity Aided (14 Jan 2016)

And not all places have a paved shoulder to the road.


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## Gravity Aided (14 Jan 2016)

Licramite said:


> I suppose you could fashion it as kite ?
> My wonder is what's wrong with American cyclists, from the photo you have a road with double yellow lines in the middle - so no overtaking, you have lanes marked with white lines at least 2ft wide at either side of the road were vehicles won't go , you have cyclists in middle of bloody road ! - why haven't they looked at the road and moved over into the side beyond the white lines so as not to obstruct the traffic. - I can only assume its safer being in front of car as its more difficult to shoot forward than sideways from a moving vehicle.


Nah, much easier to shoot forward than laterally.


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## jefmcg (14 Jan 2016)

Gravity Aided said:


> And not all places have a paved shoulder to the road.


He was specifically referring to these cyclists, who do have access to a wide, if gritty, shoulder.





(and - damnit! I couldn't remember the word "shoulder" so kept saying "area" in my post above)


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## ufkacbln (14 Jan 2016)

[QUOTE 4104351, member: 43827"]It doesn't surprise me. A couple of years ago we were in Jackson, Wyoming and, at street crossing points, they had containers at each side with bright flags in. Pedestrians were supposed to pick up a flag, hold it up when crossing and replace it in the container on the other side when they had crossed.[/QUOTE]


Beat me to it

IIRC one town had the wonderful "Take it to make it" slogan to encourage use


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## glenn forger (14 Jan 2016)

It's like Australia's madness on helmets. 

"We'll be ok!" the colonials told us, pffft.


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## DRM (14 Jan 2016)

According to GCN the Californians have passed a law that says if you have 5 cars behind you when cycling, you have to pull over to let them pass.


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## glenn forger (14 Jan 2016)

Lolwut.


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## glenn forger (14 Jan 2016)

Do you know, I'd go out with a 14 foot flag just to spite them.


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## Gravity Aided (14 Jan 2016)

jefmcg said:


> He was specifically referring to these cyclists, who do have access to a wide, if gritty, shoulder.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Pretty rare to see a road like that in Missouri, but the absence of cars is not surprising.


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## Black Sheep (14 Jan 2016)

jefmcg said:


> No, it because the cars never go there, so crap will be swept of the lanes, and then stay in that area, leading this .....
> 
> 
> View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTLSgne_TWQ
> ...




what the heck did he hit?


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## Gravity Aided (15 Jan 2016)

Looks, on the still at 10 seconds, like some metal detritus on the side of the road. Many times, people picking up refuse for recycling do not secure their loads, with the results as seen. Even in town, things are often not picked up. A busy intersection has had a daybed, made of old water pipes, a pallet, and a mattress, blocking the pedestrian crossing for three days now. I could go into the reasons for this, but you seem already to have a pretty good grasp of what the real reasons are.


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## winjim (15 Jan 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> A pedant writes ... A _*fluorescent *_flag? Really? One that actually absorbs then re-emits light?


Why not? That's how a high vis jacket works.


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## Berk on a Bike (15 Jan 2016)

winjim said:


> Why not? That's how a high vis jacket works.


I was just about to post something similar. Absorbing and re-emitting light is how all colour works. Fluorescent colours re-emit more light than non-fluorescent ones, causing the observer to see a more intense colour.


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## jonny jeez (15 Jan 2016)

Berk on a Bike said:


> I was just about to post something similar. Absorbing and re-emitting light is how all colour works. Fluorescent colours re-emit more light than non-fluorescent ones, causing the observer to see a more intense colour.


Are you sure, I thought colour reflected light, and absorbed it.


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## Berk on a Bike (15 Jan 2016)

jonny jeez said:


> Are you sure, I thought colour reflected light, and absorbed it.


My point was it's not incorrect to refer to the flag being proposed by the Missourian loony as fluorescent.


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## winjim (15 Jan 2016)

jonny jeez said:


> Are you sure, I thought colour reflected light, and absorbed it.


Isn't reflected light really just absorbed and then re-emitted at the same wavelength though? Fluoro absorbs in UV and emits in visible.



Berk on a Bike said:


> My point was it's not incorrect to refer to the flag being proposed by the Missourian loony as fluorescent.


Yeah, that was my point too. I think @Dogtrousers pedantry may have been misplaced.


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## steveindenmark (15 Jan 2016)

Oh I do hope this becomes law in the UK. I have lots of orange sail cloth under my bench that will make great bike flags and I can supply the sticks for the flags. Are you sure 15 ft is enough?


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## Berk on a Bike (15 Jan 2016)

winjim said:


> Isn't reflected light really just absorbed and then re-emitted at the same wavelength though? Fluoro absorbs in UV and emits in visible.
> 
> 
> Yeah, that was my point too. I think @Dogtrousers pedantry may have been misplaced.


We're going to be spanked for thread drift but... http://www.dayglo.com/who_we_are/fluorescent_color_theory


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## winjim (15 Jan 2016)

Berk on a Bike said:


> We're going to be spanked for thread drift but... http://www.dayglo.com/who_we_are/fluorescent_color_theory


We'll get further spanked for this old spectroscopy joke:

Why does mince have less energy than steak?
Because it's in the _ground state_!


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## Nibor (15 Jan 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> A pedant writes ... A _*fluorescent *_flag? Really? One that actually absorbs then re-emits light?


That would be luminescent


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## Dogtrousers (15 Jan 2016)

Berk on a Bike said:


> We're going to be spanked for thread drift but...


In for a penny, in for a pound ... 

OK, I'm entirely prepared to be wrong on this, but ... (and I'm bolstering my half-remembered definitions by reference to Wikipedia, which is not always wise)

Flourescence: Absorbtion at one wavelength and re-emission at a (potentially different) wavelength.
Reflection: Reflects at the same wavelength as the incident light, and at the same time, and potentially filters a specific colour. retro-reflection reflects light straight back to its source without (much) scattering.
Phosphorescence: Like fluorescence, but there may be a time gap between the absorbtion and re-emission
Luminescence: A blanket term for various kinds of non-heat related light emission. Flourescence is a kind of photoluminescence. As is Phosphorescence.

A high vis jacket works by (retro)reflection
The luminous dots on watch hands are phosphorescent
Things that glow under black light rely on fluorescence (where the incident UV light is invisible, but the re-emitted light is visible).

For the flag to be fluorescent it would need to be coated with a fluorescent chemical that absorbs and re-emits energy, unlike high vis, which relies on simple reflection.

But I'm entirely happy to be wrong about the above. I'm not claiming to be an expert.

Also, the word "fluorescent" in common usage also can be taken to simply mean brightly coloured, but accepting common usage takes all the fun out of pedantry.


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## Berk on a Bike (15 Jan 2016)

If anyone in the Missouri state legislature wants to filibuster the bill when it comes up for debate, this thread should give them all the material they need


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## Tim Hall (15 Jan 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> In for a penny, in for a pound ...
> 
> OK, I'm entirely prepared to be wrong on this, but ... (and I'm bolstering my half-remembered definitions by reference to Wikipedia, which is not always wise)
> 
> ...


PPE for construction sites etc includes what are commonly called Hi Viz jackets (and trousers). These have both fluorescent and reflective bits. The yellow (or orange if it's a railway site) bits are fluorescent, so need UV light from the sun while the reflective bits are the bands, which show up when headlights, for example, shine on them.


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## Dogtrousers (15 Jan 2016)

steveindenmark said:


> Oh I do hope this becomes law in the UK. I have lots of orange sail cloth under my bench that will make great bike flags and I can supply the sticks for the flags. Are you sure 15 ft is enough?


I've been thinking about the practicalities of attaching a 15 foot (4.5 metre) pole to a bike. That pole is going to be quite heavy and unwieldy, and will have a hell of a lot of leverage. The seat tube would seem to be the firmest attachment point, but the rider would get in the way. I can see two alternatives. Have the end of the pole terminate with a fork, which attaches at the wheel nuts or QR of the rear wheel, and is also braced to the seat tube or seat post. Alternatively brace the pole to the down tube and the seat tube and have it run at an angle behind the rider. As the legislation stipulates 15 feet above the roadway, this pole would have to be considerably longer than 15 feet (depending on the angle). 

I suspect that the length of the pole would mean that a light breeze on the flag would be enough to completely destabilise a bike. But that's a physics project for another day.

In other news @Tim Hall confirms that my pedantry about the word "fluorescent" was indeed misplaced. I offer my heartfelt apologies to Representative Houghton, and fully and unreservedly withdraw my criticism of his use of language.


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## jonny jeez (15 Jan 2016)

I love how this thread has evolved from Loony to something far more constructive


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## jefmcg (15 Jan 2016)

Black Sheep said:


> what the heck did he hit?


There was a discussion about it a year ago https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/havent-seen-this-before-crash.171844/#post-3455578

But this video should answer your question.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV9_i9MEnMg


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## jefmcg (15 Jan 2016)

Of course, it's not a real bill. This is the full text of the bill

_"This bill requires every bicycle operating on a lettered county road to be equipped with a fluorescent orange flag visible from the rear and suspended at least 15 feet above the roadway."_

Here's a real US law (Obama Care)


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## Gravity Aided (15 Jan 2016)

jefmcg said:


> "This bill requires every bicycle operating on a lettered county road to be equipped with a fluorescent orange flag visible from the rear and suspended at least 15 feet above the roadway."


So, how about if we just take an orange flag, and hang it off the overpass? (Some people do ride with a 6-foot flag on a fiberglass rod, but a 15 foot flag is designed to keep bicycles from using the roads their taxes pay for, so all the cyclists can be forced to play golf, or be fined for not doing so.)
Missouri has a very nice bike trail, the KATY Trail(named for the Missouri, Kansas, and Texas Railway, also called the Katy, ) which is quite extensive, and follows the old railway line for quite a ways.


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## Gravity Aided (15 Jan 2016)

That tie really works with that shade of spray-tan, I might add.


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## Black Sheep (17 Jan 2016)

I can't decide if using a stiff pole and breaking every streetlight and traffic light possible is the way to go here, 

Or using a really flexible pole so it whips back and forth across the road preventing anyone passing…

either way, makes a mockery of the whole point.


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## Profpointy (17 Jan 2016)

there are plenty of equally silly ideas pushed in the UK - compulsory insurance, compulsory licencing etc - sometimes supported by a minority on here.
The aim of such ideas is not to address the harm done by cyclists but simply to get cyclists off the road.
These are much more plausible threats than a 15 foot flag which is obviously a publicity stunt hence less invidious than (say) a 5' flag.


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## Drago (17 Jan 2016)

The haters are missing the obvious. It doesn't matter what they do cos when the oil runs out well be the only ones left on the road.


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## Gravity Aided (17 Jan 2016)




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## winjim (18 Jan 2016)

Drago said:


> The haters are missing the obvious. It doesn't matter what they do cos when the oil runs out well be the only ones left on the road.


Better start stockpiling chain lube. About a litre should do it.


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## threefingerjoe (25 Jan 2016)

How would you like to LIVE in that crazy state? (Missouri). And I can't believe that photo is of a MISSOURI road! Looks brand new. Can't POSSIBLY be Missouri! We're competing with Mississippi to have the worst of everything!


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## Gravity Aided (25 Jan 2016)

You have the Ozarks, and the Breaks. That is some spectacular scenery.And 2 great baseball teams. And a big Ole Arch. It seems you come right out of the gate with more than Mississippi.


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## jefmcg (25 Jan 2016)

Oh, also Masters and Johnson!


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## Flick of the Elbow (26 Jan 2016)

The bit I don't get is why Americans make cyclists where helmets but not motorcyclists, as shown by Five-0's Chin Ho Kelly.


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## Gravity Aided (26 Jan 2016)

Because cyclists(who don't, necessarily, have to wear helmets, btw) don't have a strong national lobby like ABATE to stop laws in the various state legislatures. I think motorcycle helmets are too hot and heavy to be a requirement, as well, but I don't ride a motorbike anymore. I think it is Australia where they are trying to make cyclists wear helmets.


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## Ajax Bay (26 Jan 2016)

Gravity Aided said:


> I think it is Australia where they are trying to make cyclists wear helmets.



It's the law.


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## Gravity Aided (27 Jan 2016)

Huh. That's worse than sticking a 15 foot pole with a flag on my bicycle.Unless it's one of those really ugly helmets from the '80's, then that may be worse yet. I may have one of those, NIB.


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## threefingerjoe (29 Jan 2016)

Well, we have the lowest cigarette tax in the nation. So low, in fact, that if we DOUBLED it, it would be 2nd lowest. We have one of the lowest petrol taxes and among the worst roads. Seems that we're always looking for ways to underfund or take away social services. And it seems that we're always looking for new places to let people carry guns. The latest attempt is to let students carry guns on college campuses.


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## ufkacbln (29 Jan 2016)

Gravity Aided said:


> Huh. That's worse than sticking a 15 foot pole with a flag on my bicycle.Unless it's one of those really ugly helmets from the '80's, then that may be worse yet. I may have one of those, NIB.




NOT starting a debate on helmets, but those helmets were in fact better at preventing injury than the present models!


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## Gravity Aided (29 Jan 2016)

I believe mine is made of nylon over foam, and says Huffy. I'l try and look it up this week end. I may also have an old Bell helmet, or an Avenir, from that era.


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## Brandane (1 Feb 2016)

A word of praise for American drivers....
I am just back from a 100 km ride in the Orlando area on mixed roads and paths alongside roads. Not one pass even remotely close, and on paths where I had to cross busy junctions, they always gave me priority. 
Driver behaviour just seems so much more laid back here. It of course helps that the roads are mostly multi lane and properly surfaced, unlike the third world backwater from which I departed last Tuesday.


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## Gravity Aided (1 Feb 2016)

Glad you enjoyed. Thanks for visiting. Folk do have a tendency to be nice about giving you priority at road junctions and the like. Some other situations, not so much so. On the whole, pretty mellow vibe where I ride.


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## Drago (1 Feb 2016)

People tend not to fly about over there like drivers do here. I swear that in the UK New drivers get a copy of Cranked with Jason Statham instead of the Highway Code.


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## briantrumpet (1 Feb 2016)

Drago said:


> People tend not to fly about over there like drivers do here. I swear that in the UK New drivers get a copy of Cranked with Jason Statham instead of the Highway Code.


I hate to mention it, but despite the nutters in the UK, it comes out roughly the same as France, and much better than the US, it seems:


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## Gravity Aided (1 Feb 2016)

Something may mitigate those statistics, however. A recent, local study showed that cyclists, at least in our part of the U.S., tend to be killed more often when not obeying road rules, and often on BSO bicycles. Many people who bicycle in my area for work do so because driving privileges have been removed. A tendency to ride bicycles on sidewalks also has a negative effect on cycling incident outcomes.
http://bikeblono.org/crashdata/
Data suggests that , in many cases, cycling education would help, but that has always had a poor representation in this country, as well as some peoples aversion to any further education than that received in childhood.Incidents like the one mentioned in the data above, under road rage, also indicate that such events can be rather overt. The Mr Crump mentioned, although not mentioned in the data, had been a school superintendent before retirement. This being said, I may also say that there is a great difference in riding styles between the commuter and the transportation rider who has to ride his bicycle to get around, but would rather be driving a car. Maintenance of the bicycle, quality of the bicycle, and other factors contribute to this situation, and by other factors I mean concerns which overwhelm the cyclist, such as problems with lifestyle and work and substance abuse, in a few cases. BSOs are truly dire in this country, as well. I've worked with organizations that rehabilitate bicycles, and I've found it's better to have an old bicycle than a new BSO, but few of the people in our target groups feel that way.


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## briantrumpet (1 Feb 2016)

And I see that it varies enormously between states too:


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## Gravity Aided (1 Feb 2016)

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQgAMkMmsfg

A little idea of what little cycling education we received in schools, back in my day. Most of my cycling education came from watching my parents, who were about the only grownup role models I saw cycling on the streets.


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