# Hills



## automatic_jon (21 Feb 2010)

I started cycling as a form of transport a couple of years ago and since then have started to cycle for fitness and enjoyment more and more. Growing up in the Cambridgeshire fens I'd heard of hills although never seen one in the wild, after moving to Portsmouth and cycling around the sandbank on which the city is built I've been looking at the prehistoric cliffs to the north of the city and wondering how one cycles above sea level.
And today I managed it, I actually cycled all of 400 feet above sea level over about a mile without getting off to die half way up the hill.
What are good techniques for climbing hills, and is it normal to feel like throwing up after half a mile of climbing? I'm assuming not.


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## Bayerd (21 Feb 2010)

automatic_jon said:


> and is it normal to feel like throwing up after half a mile of climbing? I'm assuming not.



You assume wrongly (at least in my experience).

Just keep at it, you'll improve. Make a record of where you're at now, put it somewhere dark and lonely and look at it in 6 months' time. You'll see the difference.


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## Fab Foodie (21 Feb 2010)

Top tip... Relax.
So, sit back, get comfortable, select the right gear early and then spin or grind away, whatever your style, but make sure that your upper body is completely relaxed. Tension here or wrestling with the handlebars is just wasted effort. Use your lower back to support your torso, let your backside sink into your saddle and find a nice rhythm for legs and breathing. If it's a long hill, then standing on the pedals helps to use alternate different muscles in the effort. But most of all, just relax...

Do a search on the forum, there have been plenty of threads on the subject.


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## davidg (21 Feb 2010)

the hills that I have problems going up involve selecting the lowest gear I have!


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## ColinJ (21 Feb 2010)

I'm not being funny, but you are using your gears properly aren't you?

Assuming that you _are_ using a low enough gear, then perhaps you just aren't used to pacing yourself on climbs. If you go too fast at the start of a hill then you could easily get tired before you are half way up. 

The same thing would happen if you tried riding along at 35 mph on the flat. You might manage a few hundred yards at that speed but you'd probably feel like throwing up before long!


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## gaz (21 Feb 2010)

You need to just find your technique.

you do need to relax. make sure your arms are bent and are just holding the bars to steady them.


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## BentMikey (21 Feb 2010)

Relaxing the upper body is extremely easy on a recumbent, and nearly impossible on my fixed wheel. Either that or I'm just crap at going up hills. Which is certainly true.


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## Crankarm (21 Feb 2010)

Being a Fen man I too have problems with hills, going up them, but not going down them strangely enough. Wasn't Eddy Merckx from the flatlands of Belgium? Don't have much chance to practice on them as it is so flat in Cambs.


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## automatic_jon (21 Feb 2010)

My technique so far has been to get a bit of a run up at the hill and steadily change down gears as my legs begin to loose momentum. I usually end up in granny gear about halfway up and just slog the rest of the way.
I do need to relax when I ride I think, on the way down too actually, I was hanging on to the drops for dear life coming home! Fun though.


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## accountantpete (21 Feb 2010)

Good quality light and stiff frame/wheels with the tyres correctly inflated minimises power wastage.

Otherwise it is practice.

A flexible pedalling technique helps enormously - a basic pull back or lift up of the pedals will give the front leg muscles a breather etc. I find it helps to practice regularly on lesser climbs to perfect these techniques and also build up the basic leg muscles/lung capacity.


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## kimz (21 Feb 2010)

i would say drop your gears early on and .... learn to breath correctly bringing your breathing and heart rate down this has been my biggest problem the breathing !!!!


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## PK99 (22 Feb 2010)

kimz said:


> i would say drop your gears early on and .... learn to *breath correctly bringing your breathing and heart rate down* this has been my biggest problem the breathing !!!!



helps to relax and stay loose


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## jimboalee (22 Feb 2010)

Climbing hills on a bicycle is a bit like walking up a downward moving escalator while wearing a 30lb backpack.
You wouldn't try to walk up the escalator at a 160 steps per minute rate, because the steps aren't 4" high. You'd step in time with the movement of each step, about 60 steps per minute because the steps are 10" high, roughly the same as the power stroke on your 170mm cranks.

Now if you think this sounds easy and you could do it for half an hour, why are you worrying about climbing hills on a bicycle?


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## Crimmey (22 Feb 2010)

Depending on the cadence and gradient I used to find being in too a low gear, therefore spinning fairly quickly, will leave me gasping quicker than being in a bigger gear where my cadence is around 70-75. The more I rode the quicker the cadence I have been able to use up hills without getting too breathless which in the long run has saved on the legs going too quickly. You might not feel the legs hurting at a lower cadence but they are using up glycogen quicker so can't go as far.

Once you have found your gear, as others have said relaxing and rhythm,which usually come together, are important. If riding in a group and you get dropped, don't go chasing, keep to your own rhythm and speed. It will save the legs again and you will probably end up quicker as you wont need to dramatically slow to recover from the hard effort.


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## Bill Gates (22 Feb 2010)

Most other riders recommend and use a relaxed upper body method for climbing and it obviously works for them. For me I suppose it depends on the context of the climb. When I'm riding my bike unless it's a recovery ride (and then I'm avoiding any climbs) I'm out to use climbs as a means of raising the power output and HR to push my LT and VO2max limits.

Apart from sitting more upright the position, technique and effort is similar to that I would use in a TT. It's not something that I'm that conscious of at the time but thinking about it, when in the seated postion, my upper body is quite tense as it is providing a solid foundation for my legs to push against. If it is a very long climb or it's part of a very long ride then my power output would be reduced and then the upper body might be more relaxed.


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## jimboalee (22 Feb 2010)

On a long climb, I will be seated for a while, and then stand up for a while.
After a few of these, I become reluctant to sit down due to the rythym and subsequent speed loss.

In either case, my abdominals, obliques, lats and delts are tensed up to provide stability for my glutes and leg flexors; as Bill says.

Incidentally, I have found standing up and performing a 'stair climbing' exercise more natural than sitting on a saddle doing a 'cycling' exercise.


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## Bill Gates (22 Feb 2010)

jimboalee said:


> On a long climb, I will be seated for a while, and then stand up for a while.
> After a few of these, I become reluctant to sit down due to the rythym and subsequent speed loss.
> 
> *In either case, my abdominals, obliques, lats and delts are tensed up to* *provide stability for my glutes and leg flexors;* as Bill says.
> ...



One of the reasons for me to develop strength in my upper body including shoulders and arms is to provide the muscle endurance to withstand out of the saddle, and seated efforts on climbs. Although the demands on the CV system are indeed great IMO it is not the only limiter as some coaches would have you believe.

On the other hand if you are an exponent of training with power then it is likely that you believe it's the only thing worth worrying about and there is no need to bother with anything else. Just riding your bike will do it for you. Well as I say each to their own.

Out of the saddle efforts involve different techniques as well. Sometimes I will swing the bike in the vertical plane and pull on the handlebars as I push down with the legs to accelerate or maintain high power. If getting out of the saddle but maintaining a steady pace then the bike remains fairly upright all the time.


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## SimonC (22 Feb 2010)

Bill Gates said:


> Most other riders recommend and use a relaxed upper body method for climbing and it obviously works for them. For me I suppose it depends on the context of the climb. When I'm riding my bike unless it's a recovery ride (and then I'm avoiding any climbs) I'm out to use climbs as a means of raising the power output and HR to push my LT and VO2max limits.
> 
> Apart from sitting more upright the position, technique and effort is similar to that I would use in a TT. It's not something that I'm that conscious of at the time but thinking about it, when in the seated postion, my upper body is quite tense as it is providing a solid foundation for my legs to push against. If it is a very long climb or it's part of a very long ride then my power output would be reduced and then the upper body might be more relaxed.



+1, generally always ride hard on climbs, whether short or long, and find that upper body is tense, arms are tense.

Sometimes out of saddle (especially powering up short climbs), sometimes sat down. Not sure of my cadence, probably 70-ish. I've found that if my upper body is relaxed I'm not riding hard enough, and if my cadence is too high, what you might call spinning, again feels like I'm not riding hard enough or fast enough.

What I do think is that it is very different for new riders, to those of us who have been riding and racing for a long time (20 yrs here), and that advice about hammering up short climbs, pacing on long climbs to save a bit for a blast at the top etc is pretty meaningless when the power and endurance isnt there and you are more concerned about not having to stop and push.


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## lukesdad (22 Feb 2010)

I tend to agree with Simon C and Bill . If your attacking a climb your technique will be different to somebody who is just trying to survive it.In the case of the OP probably the latter so relaxing and spinning up would probably be the best gameplan, but to be a really good climber there are no shortcuts mentally or physically a lot of pain will be involved.


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## westofsouth (22 Feb 2010)

My cycling career is measured in months rather than years, so you may find my naive comments faintly amusing.
A few people have said one should try to relax, I take it a stage further and try to meditate, silently repeating the mantra "I love hills" as I climb (...yes really).
I have a heavy hub-geared bike with high North Road 'bars and plain pedals; people advise me that as a minimum I should have drop bars and clip-on pedals.
On a 55 mile club ride yesterday the longest climb was some 800ft with a few hairpin bends included. I started at the back and was the first to arrive at the top, some riders (apparently with all the right equipment) were 10min behind. 
Not sure what point I am trying to make, as we all have different fitness levels. As with most sporting activities, psychology is important.... just try to eliminate any negative thoughts about your capabilities...... things will be easier.


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## Fab Foodie (22 Feb 2010)

SimonC said:


> What I do think is that it is very different for new riders, to those of us who have been riding and racing for a long time (20 yrs here), and that advice about hammering up short climbs, pacing on long climbs to save a bit for a blast at the top etc is pretty meaningless when the power and endurance isnt there and you are more concerned about not having to stop and push.



Thank you.
The needs of the newbie are different to those of the experienced.
having said that, watch good climbers do big hills, I don't see a lot of use of the upper body or straining against the bars. If there is, it's short bursts only.


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## jimboalee (23 Feb 2010)

If you do watch the good climbers ride the 'big hills', you will get captions on the screen saying "Gradient 7.5%" and "Gradient 8%".

Yes, it is possible to merrily spin up these inclines with the upper body floppily resting on bent arms gently holding the bars with a light caress.

When they come to a hairpin where the gradient goes to 10, 12 and 14% sharpish, they will stand up and heave-ho, grasping the bars and pedaling from the shoulders.


When tourists and leisure riders come to 10, 12 and 14% inclines, they slap the chain down onto the very small ring and rythmicly legpress there way to the top.
I would dearly love to see a tourist climb a long 10% hill on a 27" gear spinning it at over 80 rpm....
Not unless their legs can put out 300 Watts for half hour stints, SITTING DOWN...


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## Fab Foodie (24 Feb 2010)

Jimbo, for the most part people are not riding 25% hills every day, a few might (and why not for fun), but even so with modern bikes and low gearing you don't for the most part need to rip the handlebars off the bike to get up them.


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## Bill Gates (24 Feb 2010)

I couldn't even get a relaxed upper body when winding down yesterday on the turbo.


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## jimboalee (24 Feb 2010)

Fab Foodie said:


> Jimbo, for the most part people are not riding 25% hills every day, a few might (and why not for fun), but even so with modern bikes and low gearing you don't for the most part need to rip the handlebars off the bike to get up them.



Who mentioned 25% hills?

Something else I'd like to see.

Take a 20lb sports bike, a car park ramp ( 25% ), a 36T ring and a 25T sprocket.

Put the bike on it's lowest gear and ride toward the ramp at 80 cadence. ( 8.7 mph ).
Ride up the 25% ramp and see how much speed and cadence you lose,,

If you think this is crackers, there was a carpark in East Brum with a six storey spiral 25% upramp. We trained on it riding 22.5lb bikes with 39 x 23 gearing.

Maybe that's the reason I can mash up most hills.....

Anyone who has some hills to climb should try it now and again....


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## SimonC (24 Feb 2010)

Fab Foodie said:


> Thank you.
> The needs of the newbie are different to those of the experienced.
> having said that, watch good climbers do big hills, *I don't see a lot of use of the upper body or straining against the bars*. If there is, it's short bursts only.



'Cos they are skinny streaks of p1ss who dont have any upper body strength


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## automatic_jon (24 Feb 2010)

SimonC said:


> 'Cos they are skinny streaks of p1ss who dont have any upper body strength



I'll have you know that as a newbie who is also a skinny streak of p1ss with no upper body strength I've been following some of the advice here and not only managed to conquer the hill that looms over the town but I managed all the way to work with out stopping for breath on a hill even once. I even passed someone on one climb, which buoyed by spirits for the rest of the journey.

I've definitely found that seated works best for me and although I'd like to stand up to put more power down I just don't have the legs to get up off of my saddle after a little bit of climbing.


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## Fab Foodie (24 Feb 2010)

automatic_jon said:


> I'll have you know that as a newbie who is also a skinny streak of p1ss with no upper body strength I've been following some of the advice here and not only managed to conquer the hill that looms over the town but I managed all the way to work with out stopping for breath on a hill even once. I even passed someone on one climb, which buoyed by spirits for the rest of the journey.
> 
> I've definitely found that seated works best for me and although I'd like to stand up to put more power down I just don't have the legs to get up off of my saddle after a little bit of climbing.



Yay! Climbing God under tuition...


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## jimboalee (24 Feb 2010)

"If you want even the nerds to consider you a nerd, try getting enthusiastic about bicycle gearing. There is probably no topic with poorer esteem or poorer coverage in any book on cycling. There are three reasons for this low estate: 1) newbies don't understand it, 2) strong cyclists don't need it, and 3) most people dislike math. If these things are true, why do I want to approach the task? -- simply because cadence and gearing are important for the newbie, the tourer, and the person with weak muscles. "

Ken Kifer.


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## lukesdad (25 Feb 2010)

Welcome to the " Darkside " Automatic Jon. Glad to hear your climbing is going well.

There are as many ways to climb as there are riders. What height and weight are you,and what cadence are you climbing at, at the moment ?


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## SimonC (25 Feb 2010)

automatic_jon said:


> I'll have you know that as a newbie who is also a skinny streak of p1ss with no upper body strength I've been following some of the advice here and not only managed to conquer the hill that looms over the town but I managed all the way to work with out stopping for breath on a hill even once. I even passed someone on one climb, which buoyed by spirits for the rest of the journey.
> 
> I've definitely found that seated works best for me and although I'd like to stand up to put more power down I just don't have the legs to get up off of my saddle after a little bit of climbing.



Whats this hill that looms over Portsmouth then??

Nowt like what we have oop north, and we ride up 'em in clogs, towing a whippet, etc, etc.


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## lukesdad (26 Feb 2010)

SimonC said:


> Whats this hill that looms over Portsmouth then??
> 
> Nowt like what we have oop north, and we ride up 'em in clogs, towing a whippet, etc, etc.



Clogs would be all you d need to ride the modest lumps around Sheffield....... Mamby Pamby Northener s


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## jimboalee (26 Feb 2010)

Now now. There's no need to get into a squabble about who's got the steepest hills.

A shallow hill ridden fast CAN be more energetic than a steep hill ridden slowly.


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## SimonC (26 Feb 2010)

lukesdad said:


> Clogs would be all you d need to ride the modest lumps around Sheffield....... Mamby Pamby Northener s



Went to West Wales on holiday few years ago, didnt take a bike, but looked like one or two climbs around your way.


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## slinky malinky (26 Feb 2010)

As a sort of newbee (only been training and really trying for about a year) the input on this thread is great, my only advice I can give is don't look at the top of the hill, fix your sights a few feet in front of your wheel and remember no matter how good you are its going to hurt but its a good kind of hurt (or is that just me??)


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## tyred (26 Feb 2010)

What I will say to beginners who are struggling with a particular hill; it won't appear to get any easier but you'll get to the top faster with practice.


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## PK99 (26 Feb 2010)

tyred said:


> What I will say to beginners who are struggling with a particular hill; it won't appear to get any easier but you'll get to the top faster with practice.




i disagree - I just arrived back from a 50 mile circuit taking in Epsom downs, Ranmore, Leith Hill and back over box hill.

Less than a year ago box hill used to well nigh kill me (hr>>160) and i never made it up without stopping - today at the end of a tough ride I got up with HR a steady 140 (current threshold = 155, age 54)

A mixture of improved fitness and better technique (*ie* which gear/cadence combination works best for the individual) does make hills easier for a novice rider.

PS Ranmore into a gale force head wind is NOT fun!


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## Bill Gates (26 Feb 2010)

tyred said:


> What I will say to beginners who are struggling with a particular hill; it won't appear to get any easier but you'll get to the top faster with practice.





PK99 said:


> i disagree - I just arrived back from a 50 mile circuit taking in Epsom downs, Ranmore, Leith Hill and back over box hill.
> 
> Less than a year ago box hill used to well nigh kill me (hr>>160) and i never made it up without stopping - today at the end of a tough ride I got up with HR a steady 140 (current threshold = 155, age 54)
> A mixture of improved fitness and better technique (*ie* which gear/cadence combination works best for the individual) does make hills easier for a novice rider.
> ...



I think it was Geg Lemond who is quoted as saying "It doesn't get any easier I just go faster". But you're also right in that climbing does get easier when you get fitter and practice. 

That was a testing training spin you did there especially this time of year. I've been on club runs that have taken in that lot and you need some low gears alright. I went out for a short ride this morning through Charlwood to Newdigate, and back through Rusper to Crawley and the wind was very strong and gusty.

TBH as I've been doing LT training on the turbo I'm more into basic mileage until the weight gets down a bit and it gets a bit warmer. The steep hills can wait for a few weeks.


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## PK99 (26 Feb 2010)

Bill Gates said:


> That was a testing training spin you did there especially this time of year. I've been on club runs that have taken in that lot and you need some low gears alright. I went out for a short ride this morning through Charlwood to Newdigate, and back through Rusper to Crawley and the wind was very strong and gusty.
> 
> TBH as I've been doing LT training on the turbo I'm more into basic mileage until the weight gets down a bit and it gets a bit warmer. The steep hills can wait for a few weeks.



I'm doing the Puncheur sportive next weekend, today's run was to remind my legs what hills are about! - It worked, i've now got a nice warm glow from the waist down (Oh! Er!)


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## Bill Gates (26 Feb 2010)

PK99 said:


> I'm doing the Puncheur sportive next weekend, today's run was to remind my legs what hills are about! - It worked, i've now got a nice warm glow from the waist down (Oh! Er!)




Out tomorrow?


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## PK99 (26 Feb 2010)

Bill Gates said:


> Out tomorrow?



No.... well, actually if the weather is ok i will do a towpath MTB ride with my wife as a recovery ride - plus i'm determined to break 500 miles in February despite the weather!!! 28 more needed!


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## Bill Gates (26 Feb 2010)

PK99 said:


> No.... well, actually if the weather is ok i will do a towpath MTB ride with my wife as a recovery ride - plus i'm determined to break 500 miles in February despite the weather!!! 28 more needed!



Wind drops tomorrow but showers expected. Good Luck!


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## lukesdad (26 Feb 2010)

Crikey that brings back memories my father used to take me and my brother out on those roads when we were just kids. Bet its different now though traffic etc. We used to come off Ranmore common the zig zags up by Burford bridge over box hill then the next one can t remember its name then Leith hill and home to Hersham Nice riding country that.


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## lukesdad (26 Feb 2010)

Small case of the Daffodil classic down here tomorrow big hill 0.6 miles from start,that ll sort the men from the boys.


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## PK99 (26 Feb 2010)

lukesdad said:


> Crikey that brings back memories my father used to take me and my brother out on those roads when we were just kids. Bet its different now though traffic etc. We used to come off Ranmore common the zig zags up by Burford bridge over box hill then the next one can t remember its name then Leith hill and home to Hersham Nice riding country that.



Actually, it is still pretty traffic free & truly magnificent cycling country. 

Getting back on topic, the great thing about hills and the pain in getting up there is that there is most often a magnificent view as reward: all the way to the south downs on the way out, back over central london from Epsom downs on the way back


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## Fab Foodie (26 Feb 2010)

PK99 said:


> Actually, it is still pretty traffic free & truly magnificent cycling country.
> 
> Getting back on topic, the great thing about hills and the pain in getting up there is that there is most often a magnificent view as reward: all the way to the south downs on the way out, back over central london from Epsom downs on the way back



Agreed, was based in Epsom for a few years and my bike was my fixed, great fun!


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## automatic_jon (27 Feb 2010)

lukesdad said:


> Welcome to the " Darkside " Automatic Jon. Glad to hear your climbing is going well.
> 
> There are as many ways to climb as there are riders. What height and weight are you,and what cadence are you climbing at, at the moment ?



Height and weight are 5'9" and 8 and half stone as for cadence, I have no idea. And actually no idea how to calculate it.

Yeah, climbing technique is progressing, the more I practice the better I'm getting at finding my own style and rhythm. At this rate I'll be ready for the IoW randonee in time.



SimonC said:


> Whats this hill that looms over Portsmouth then??
> 
> Nowt like what we have oop north, and we ride up 'em in clogs, towing a whippet, etc, etc.



That would be Portsdown hill, part of the prehistoric cliff-line. The road I'm using to get up it goes up 400 feet in just less than a mile.


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## SimonC (28 Feb 2010)

automatic_jon said:


> Height and weight are 5'9" and 8 and half stone as for cadence, I have no idea. And actually no idea how to calculate it.
> 
> Yeah, climbing technique is progressing, the more I practice the better I'm getting at finding my own style and rhythm. At this rate I'll be ready for the IoW randonee in time.
> 
> ...



I'll be down that way in the summer, getting a ferry to Jersey, will keep an eye out for it.


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## roundisland (2 Mar 2010)

Came across a hill today 17% couldnt make it up had to push the bike up the hill 

I was riding my dawes galaxy a bit disappointed in myself but i wasnt even close to gettting to the top. Is 17% a challenge to or just a breeze to most cyclists?


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## aJohnson (2 Mar 2010)

17% is challenging to most I presume. I don't think it would be a breeze for many people.


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## jimboalee (3 Mar 2010)

roundisland said:


> Came across a hill today 17% couldnt make it up had to push the bike up the hill
> 
> I was riding my dawes galaxy a bit disappointed in myself but i wasnt even close to gettting to the top. Is 17% a challenge to or just a breeze to most cyclists?



It's a walk in most folk's language.

Only those with the likes of 17" gears would get up 17% grades without standing up and straining.

Speed would be 2.5 mph at 50 cadence, so I'd be walking.


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## GrasB (3 Mar 2010)

+1 on jimboalee's post. Last time I was riding with those sorts of inclines it was bottom gear, standing on the pedals, driving with the down & up-stroke. For a 15-17% incline if I'm lucky & having a good day (read a tail wind) I may just get to 4mph. Hard work but very rewarding when you ride to the top in one go.


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## roundisland (3 Mar 2010)

Thanks for the replies. That's good to know I dont feel bad about it now. I was at the bottom looking up at the hill and I new there was no way I could get up it so just walked it.


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## jimboalee (3 Mar 2010)

IS it easier to walk? 

You've got to raise the combined mass of you and your bike through x vertical metres against the force of gravity.

The difference is the relationship of how far you climb with one pedalstroke or step.

On a 17% grade, your stride length might be your wheel diameter, effectively a 13 1/2" gear. [ 2 strides = 1 rev of crank ]

Less Joules per second, so 'easier'...


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## roundisland (3 Mar 2010)

jimboalee said:


> IS it easier to walk?
> 
> You've got to raise the combined mass of you and your bike through x vertical metres against the force of gravity.
> 
> ...



There was no option either walk up or turn around and go back down....but thank for the physics lesson even though it went right over my head!!


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## Fiona N (3 Mar 2010)

jimboalee said:


> Only those with the likes of 17" gears would get up 17% grades without standing up and straining.
> 
> Speed would be 2.5 mph at 50 cadence, so I'd be walking.



Well I am obviously LA in disguise  
The hill out of Sedbergh towards Kendal is marked as 17% and in fact has two separate steeper sections with slightly gentler stuff, including a short descent, in between so that the complete climb extends over about 1km with about 110m of height gain - anyone who knows the climb will admit it's a beast. I do the whole thing sitting down in 33 inch gear (32 x 25, 700 wheels) - speed rarely drops under 10kmph or I would be standing out of the saddle. I guess the fact I can ride it comfortably on a 2-wheel recumbent where standing out of the saddle is not an option means I know there's no need to. 

After reading all these posts about cadence of 40 or less and straining up hills out of the saddle, on yesterday's ride around the hills north of Kendal (52km, 895m of ascent, 22% max. gradient), I decided to see what my cadence is when I get out of the saddle, as 40 seemed awfully slow. On the short, steep ups around here, I often don't change right down but deliberately honk in a higher gear, partly to give my back a rest and partly laziness on slopes of less than 50-60m. I found that I rarely drop below a cadence of 50 - and that was mainly when I slightly underestimated the incline - and around 60-65 seems to be optimal in terms of comfort, speed and endurance. Maybe all those years of flogging myself up Alpine climbs have paid off in terms of technique and strength


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## jimboalee (3 Mar 2010)

Fiona N said:


> Well I am obviously LA in disguise
> The hill out of Sedbergh towards Kendal is marked as 17% and in fact has two separate steeper sections with slightly gentler stuff, including a short descent, in between so that the complete climb extends over about 1km with about 110m of height gain - anyone who knows the climb will admit it's a beast. I do the whole thing sitting down in 33 inch gear (32 x 25, 700 wheels) - speed rarely drops under 10kmph or I would be standing out of the saddle. I guess the fact I can ride it comfortably on a 2-wheel recumbent where standing out of the saddle is not an option means I know there's no need to.
> 
> After reading all these posts about cadence of 40 or less and straining up hills out of the saddle, on yesterday's ride around the hills north of Kendal (52km, 895m of ascent, 22% max. gradient), I decided to see what my cadence is when I get out of the saddle, as 40 seemed awfully slow. On the short, steep ups around here, I often don't change right down but deliberately honk in a higher gear, partly to give my back a rest and partly laziness on slopes of less than 50-60m. I found that I rarely drop below a cadence of 50 - and that was mainly when I slightly underestimated the incline - and around 60-65 seems to be optimal in terms of comfort, speed and endurance. Maybe all those years of flogging myself up Alpine climbs have paid off in terms of technique and strength



That's pretty impressive.

A 32" gear at 6.25 mph is 63 rpm.

I'm taking a guess here. Your vehicle weight is 70 kg ?? That's 370 Watts to climb 17% at 10 kmh.

370 Watts is also what is required to climb a 10% at 16 kmh or an 8% at 19 kmh.

You really are up there with the pros.


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## jimboalee (4 Mar 2010)

I rode up the 10% on my commute at 5.5 mph in 72".

That's 305 Watts for me at 26 rpm, standing up, pretending I was climbing a steep stairway while carrying a heavy rucksack.

I usually drop the gear to middle ( 54" ) and go up the 10% at 5 mph ( 31 rpm ) for 270 Watts.

Lowest on that bike is 41", which gets me up a 14% at 3.5 mph at 30 rpm for 270 Watts.


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## yumpy (5 Mar 2010)

Just on the efficiency angle: isn't it true that being up in the saddle is less efficient than sitting, because you're outputting extra energy in keeping your body stable ?

and if you walk you + the bike up a vertical distance it should be the same energy output as cycling you + the bike... except that when you're cycling you're losing energy in the drivetrain and bike flex.

So surely walking with the bike uses less energy ?

Unfortunatly that's as far as my dim and distant memory of physics will go !


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## Tynan (15 Mar 2010)

110m in a km is 11% average in my Maths world

jimbo, your posts are a delight


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## Bill Gates (16 Mar 2010)

Tynan said:


> jimbo, your posts are a delight



Not quite the word I would use. How about "incomprehensible"?


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## Trek Trauma Chris (16 Mar 2010)

In most sport's, cycling being a big one, getting nervous about performance (will I make it to the top, or will I have to stop or fall off) plays a big part in sapping your energy and strength. Take boxer's, some of the fittest men on the planet yet 5x3 min rounds later, exhausted, England rugby team 20 Min's into play gasping for breath but in training will run all day, why! fear of the unknown, big day nerves. So whether it's a bike race or Sunday with the club but were going to try this big hill, its all the same, but the problem is you cannot do anything about it and its the same for everyone. Breathing, we all do it but not right sometimes, as you see a hill approaching try Hyperventilating ie. sit upright and take in big lungfuls of air and keep doing it even as you go up the hill, this does 2 things, 1/ it takes your mind of the hill 2/ you wont be gasping for breath early on as you have built up a reserve and it also helps to metabolise your fuel and get it quickly to the muscles. Riding a bike seated uses different muscles to riding whilst standing up, sure they are in the legs but still different set of muscles, so if you prefer to go up hill seated that's fine but do stand once in a while (5-10 secs) to give the first lot a rest and vise verse, standing up also stretches the hamstring muscles which when seated can get cramped up a little.
I learnt most of this the hard way, falling of going up a hill, determined to do it but speed fell to zero, could not unclip in time and bang one torn shoulder later, in hospital to have my muscles sown back on to the bone, arm strapped to my side for 4 month's to allow tendons to re attach to the bone, but that gave me some time to think and research into hill climbing.


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## jimboalee (16 Mar 2010)

jimboalee said:


> I rode up the 10% on my commute at 5.5 mph in 72".
> 
> That's 305 Watts for me at 26 rpm, standing up, pretending I was climbing a steep stairway while carrying a heavy rucksack.
> 
> ...



I don't have this bike any longer.
I'm riding my Dawes Giro this week until the new Land Rover Tahora is set up.

The 10% this morning was in 70" at 6.5 mph, SITTING DOWN!. That's 32 rpm in grinders language and 330 Watts in Hairy Arse'd Engineer's speak.


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## Fiona N (16 Mar 2010)

Trek Trauma Chris said:


> In most sport's, cycling being a big one, getting nervous about performance (will I make it to the top, or will I have to stop or fall off) plays a big part in sapping your energy and strength.



This is one reason why I've always been rather sceptical about riding up a hill to find your maximum heart rate. I know I only ever get to max HR on the road (as opposed to the turbo in a ramp test) going down hill - on descents with intervening short climbs when I'll not bother changing out of the big ring because I know I only have to get over the lip and then the effort's off. Going up hill I always have something in reserve, even on a hill I know well, so I've rarely (only when racing) got within 5 bpm of true max HR.


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## Bill Gates (16 Mar 2010)

Fiona N said:


> This is one reason why I've always been rather sceptical about riding up a hill to find your maximum heart rate. I know I only ever get to* max HR on the road* (as opposed to the turbo in a ramp test) *going down hill -* on descents with intervening short climbs when I'll not bother changing out of the big ring because I know I only have to get over the lip and then the effort's off. Going up hill I always have something in reserve, even on a hill I know well, so I've rarely (only when racing) got within 5 bpm of true max HR.



Can't see how you can get a Max HR going downhill; mine plummets.


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## lukesdad (16 Mar 2010)

Must be the delay after puting in the effort to top out the summit on the previous climb me thinks.


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## jimboalee (17 Mar 2010)

The heart rate of drag race pilots elevates before and during a race.

All they have to do is flatten the accelerator pedal and steer the car toward the finish line. 

The race is over in less than 4 seconds but their HR goes no near MAX.

I suppose 0 - 320 mph in 1000 ft is a bit frightning,,,, just like riding a bike down a hill


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## Fiona N (17 Mar 2010)

Bill Gates said:


> Can't see how you can get a Max HR going downhill; mine plummets.



That's because you're not trying  

I put the gears into top and pedal as hard and fast as possible, usually getting to about 65 or 70 kmph before gravity takes over but when you meet a bit of uphill at speeds like this - i.e. maintaining speeds like this temporarily going uphill during the overall descent - you'll find that your HR shoots for the moon 

This isn't the sort of thing you can do on most English hills, they're just too short and often steep and/or badly surfaced but get to the Alps or Mallorca and it's a different story. My favourite descent is from the petrol station above the Lluc monastry. Every cyclist who's been to Mallorca will know this fabulous descent to Pollenca - it's got everything including a few unexpected hairpins, which sort the men from the boys, and with a bit of effort you can break 100kmph too.
Of course, you can simply sit on your bike and freewheel (except for the ups, of course) but that's really not the point, is it? B)


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## jimboalee (18 Mar 2010)

Fiona N said:


> That's because you're not trying
> 
> I put the gears into top and pedal as hard and fast as possible, usually getting to about 65 or 70 kmph before gravity takes over but when you meet a bit of uphill at speeds like this - i.e. maintaining speeds like this temporarily going uphill during the overall descent - you'll find that your HR shoots for the moon
> 
> ...



including a few glass cabinets with bouquets of flowers.


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## GrasB (18 Mar 2010)

Bill Gates said:


> Can't see how you can get a Max HR going downhill; mine plummets.


Given a geared bike I usually have a peak of HR a bit after the climb starts to ease off. From that point as my cadence & speed starts to build up my HR drops but as I start to spin up properly into the descent the HR goes skywards. My rides HRmax tends to have more to do with the maximum sustained cadence than all out effort.


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## Bill Gates (18 Mar 2010)

GrasB said:


> Given a geared bike I usually have a peak of HR a bit after the climb starts to ease off. From that point as my cadence & speed starts to build up my HR drops but as I start to spin up properly into the descent the HR goes skywards. My rides HRmax tends to have more to do with the maximum sustained cadence than all out effort.



That's all very well but what we are talking about here is a process to establish your maximum HR. IMO decreasing the pedalling resistance by going downhill makes the process much more difficult and therefore more likely to be inaccurate than sprinting uphill.


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## GrasB (19 Mar 2010)

But I find cadence has an effect on my HR, going from 80-85 to 115-120ppm on the flat at 15mph has about the same effect on my HR as increasing my speed by around 1mph. The net result is if I push as hard as I can uphill, where my cadence is lower, & as hard as I can downhill I'll record a higher HR going down hill.


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## jimboalee (19 Mar 2010)

Let me throw this theory into the conversation.-

Phosphocreatine muscle contraction does not require the heart to beat faster.

Anaerobic states of exercise do not require the heart to pump blood as much as aerobic exercises.

Therefore, when climbing hills at lower cadence in the anaerobic condition, heart rate is lower than spinning furiously downhill in the aerobic state.


Discuss..


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## Bill Gates (19 Mar 2010)

jimboalee said:


> Let me throw this theory into the conversation.-
> 
> Phosphocreatine muscle contraction does not require the heart to beat faster.
> 
> ...




Are you 'aving a laugh?


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## jimboalee (19 Mar 2010)

Bill Gates said:


> Are you 'aving a laugh?



That finishes the discussion.


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## GrasB (19 Mar 2010)

jimboalee, if I'm putting out 200w up hill & 200w down hill which requires the higher heart rate?


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## jimboalee (19 Mar 2010)

The strange thing is though, when I'm on the gym bike set to 350 Watts, spinning at 90 - 95 to maintain the power, my HR is >95% Max.

Then I slow the cadence down to 55 - 60 and stand up. My HR drops to 90% max and the job becomes an easier ordeal.


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## jimboalee (19 Mar 2010)

On a downward 7% gradient, the speed that requires a 200W output would be approx 40 mph. Spinning a 53/11 at 105 rpm should do the trick.

My HR at 200W on the gym bike is about 140 BPM. ( This is not directly relative, and subject to fitness levels. )

Having said this, I would imagine my HR would be higher if I was tearing down a mountain road, weaving round the curves watching out for coke cans in the road.

As I've mentioned, fear ( the realisation of a situation that could result in death, as in the Top Fuel driver ) plays a role.


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## yumpy (19 Mar 2010)

Fiona N said:


> ... My favourite descent is from the petrol station above the Lluc monastry. Every cyclist who's been to Mallorca will know this fabulous descent to Pollenca



Been there on holiday lots but never taken a bike down it, just a car and once a bit too fast in my irresponsible days. That road to Soller is stunning, going from hot dry land to alpine scenery.

I imagine if anyone wants to try hairy turns downhill on a bike the road down to Sa Calobra would be good when its quiet and the tour buses have gone - I lost count of the hairpins; take new set of brakes though. Could be dangerous as I remember seeing a wild animal warning sign that said 'Big Game' or something like that !


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## jimboalee (19 Mar 2010)

GrasB said:


> jimboalee, if I'm putting out 200w up hill & 200w down hill which requires the higher heart rate?



As for your question, they should, according to all the theory, require the same.

Riding down a hill, and you haven't said how steep, will produce a higher HR due to your brain's requirement to produce the necessary bravado to risk life riding a bike at 40 mph along a roadway with a 200 ft drop on one side.

There are bends in the roads descending some hills in the Peak District. If the roads were straight, I dare say I would spin-out in a straight line dash with 'normal' HR. But they are not straight and some require extreme concentration to keep the bike on the tarmac. In this 'real world' situation, HR will be above normal.


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## yumpy (19 Mar 2010)

Re: the walking up a hill with your bike or riding it up energy use, turns out that what I put earlier was wrong (walking more efficient than riding on account of bike friction losses).

Told by an engineer friend that the bike is more efficient because the force of the pedal dropping with one foot accelerates the other foot up. Bit like a gyroscope I think he said.

Whereas with walking, each foot has to accelerate upwards independently from a standing start with each footstep.


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## GrasB (19 Mar 2010)

jimboalee said:


> As for your question, they should, according to all the theory, require the same.
> 
> Riding down a hill, and you haven't said how steep, will produce a higher HR due to your brain's requirement to produce the necessary bravado to risk life riding a bike at 40 mph along a roadway with a 200 ft drop on one side.
> 
> There are bends in the roads descending some hills in the Peak District. If the roads were straight, I dare say I would spin-out in a straight line dash with 'normal' HR. But they are not straight and some require extreme concentration to keep the bike on the tarmac. In this 'real world' situation, HR will be above normal.


Typically no more than 10% around here & due to the short nature of the 'hills', more pimples from the POV of someone in the lake district, very little in the way of technical descents. Quite often the ascent & descent will cover less than 1.5 miles, this means I can push very hard up the hill & still have enough go to continue pushing down the hill.

Now here's the interesting bit, on my Boardman hybrid, given my handle bar position that means I'm in a similar stance to what you'd expect on the hoods, I'll climb the steeper side of chapel hill (10% peak gradient) at no lower than 8mph on 42:27 that's just under 70ppm. From there as the climb transitions into the descent I'll go up the gears until I get to 42:16 at which point I'll hit the big ring & say in 54:16 all the way down, instantaneous maximum usually comes to around 42mph (or 155ppm give or take) at which point I'll gear up. Now doing this I'll always get maximum HR about 10s after I hit peak cadence.


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## jimboalee (19 Mar 2010)

GrasB said:


> Typically no more than 10% around here & due to the short nature of the 'hills', more pimples from the POV of someone in the lake district, very little in the way of technical descents. Quite often the ascent & descent will cover less than 1.5 miles, this means I can push very hard up the hill & still have enough go to continue pushing down the hill.
> 
> Now here's the interesting bit, on my Boardman hybrid, given my handle bar position that means I'm in a similar stance to what you'd expect on the hoods, I'll climb the steeper side of chapel hill (10% peak gradient) at no lower than 8mph on 42:27 that's just under 70ppm. From there as the climb transitions into the descent I'll go up the gears until I get to 42:16 at which point I'll hit the big ring & say in 54:16 all the way down, instantaneous maximum usually comes to around 42mph (or *155ppm* give or take) at which point I'll gear up. Now doing this I'll always get maximum HR about 10s after I hit peak cadence.



155 parts per million of what? Unburned Hydrocarbons???

Methane gas emissions from rear end.


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## Bill Gates (20 Mar 2010)

jimboalee said:


> Let me throw this theory into the conversation.-
> 
> Phosphocreatine muscle contraction does not require the heart to beat faster.
> 
> ...






Bill Gates said:


> Are you 'aving a laugh?






jimboalee said:


> That finishes the discussion.




What was all that about?


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