# 'i'm very interested in one of your bikes...'



## kedab (26 Sep 2013)

that was the general gist of the email I sent to my most local Giant store...i asked that, if they hadn't got one already, would they be so kind as to have the particular model i'm interested in shipped to the store in the frame size i'll most likely require, so that i could check it out?

their answer? 'that's model isn't in our stock range plan so, no, we won't get that in for you to check out, we think a member of staff has that model in that size so we _might_ be able to have that in store for you on the day?'

now, i get that there's only so much stock you can hold in any given space but when a customer asks to check out a £2000 product, to check it fits before they purchase it, you'd think the retailer would be all over that...wouldn't you? 

initially i misunderstood the reply, i thought they simply weren't stocking the bike at all, so i asked, 'if you're not stocking them, please tell me where i can go to buy one'...their next reply really knocked it out of the park.

'oh, you can buy one from us, just tell us what size you want, give us a 10% non-refundable deposit and we'll order it in for you'

oh right! you want me to give you £200 before you'll get the bike in?! i was a little miffed i can tell you...i'm pretty sure i know what size i need for that frame, i just wanted to be 100%. it is 2k after all...is that too much to ask? clearly it is for Giant...i'd like to say i'll not buy it now but that's not true, i will and most likely from that store but they get pants out of 10 for that customer service...

(as for the bespoke bike i was going to have built, i couldn't justify it in the end and baby is almost here so, i compromised...again)


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## S1mon (26 Sep 2013)

i think even evans want a deposit before they will get a certain not in stock bike to try


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## mattobrien (26 Sep 2013)

Would it be possible to try a bike with identical geometry that they have in stock to tell if the one you want to buy fits?

I can see both sides of the story as the bike shop might be a franchise / not owned by giant and therefore not want to be lumbered with stock they can't easily sell, but equally you don't want to part with a wedge of cash on something you aren't sure is right for you. 

Stock management must be an utter nightmare for all local LBS's.


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## Sara_H (26 Sep 2013)

Massive problem when buying bikes, not being able to test ride or even try a bike for size.

I don't know what the answer is, as I can understand that bike shops are reluctant to have stock that they might not shift.


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## snorri (26 Sep 2013)

Is it just me? I would have been visiting the branch to speak about bike size, delivery times, terms etc and getting a feel for staff attitudes re after sales care rather than sending an email with a request to get a bike in for me to inspect. .


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## alecstilleyedye (26 Sep 2013)

from the ribble website:

*HORIZONTAL GEOMETRY (Horizontal Top Tube)*
Use the formula: Inside leg measurement (cm) x 0.69. The resultant size should be rounded up or down to whichever is the nearest frame size option. If you are in between sizes we recommend you go for the smaller size.


*SLOPING GEOMETRY (Sloping Top Tube)*
Use the formula: Inside leg measurement (cm) x 0.64. The resultant size and round up or down to the nearest frame size option. If you are in between sizes we recommend you go for the smaller size.


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## cd365 (26 Sep 2013)

You might as well buy one online, then if it doesn't fit return it under distance selling regulations.


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## Sara_H (26 Sep 2013)

cd365 said:


> You might as well buy one online, then if it doesn't fit return it under distance selling regulations.


I've often wondered about this - can you still return it if you've put it together and taken it for a test ride?


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## swansonj (26 Sep 2013)

S1mon said:


> i think even evans want a deposit before they will get a certain not in stock bike to try


The Evans deposit is refundable though, or was a few years ago when I got my daughter's bike. It just guarantees that you'll turn up to try the bike and therefore eliminates time wasters.


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## cd365 (26 Sep 2013)

Sara_H said:


> I've often wondered about this - can you still return it if you've put it together and taken it for a test ride?


It depends on the store I think, this is Wiggle's policy http://www.wiggle.co.uk/h/option/BikeDelivery#returns


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## Andrew_P (26 Sep 2013)

I though Giant ran a loan/test program where the stores can order a test bike, might have to wait a few weeks. I would try another Giant dealer personally


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## mickle (26 Sep 2013)

kedab said:


> that was the general gist of the email I sent to my most local Giant store...i asked that, if they hadn't got one already, would they be so kind as to have the particular model i'm interested in shipped to the store in the frame size i'll most likely require, so that i could check it out?
> 
> their answer? 'that's model isn't in our stock range plan so, no, we won't get that in for you to check out, we think a member of staff has that model in that size so we _might_ be able to have that in store for you on the day?'
> 
> ...



A £2000 bike will cost them - depending on what terms they're on - around £1300. And you want them to order it in on a _maybe_? You're havin a laugh. 

We ask for a non-refundable 50% deposit before we order anything.


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## Andrew_P (26 Sep 2013)

http://www.test-ride.co.uk/ ~Giant do run a test bike program, it is just if the dealer can be bothered to book it for a few days, won't necessarily be the same model you want but will be the same geometry

http://stationcycles.co.uk/index.php/demo-bikes/ In Cambridge too.


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## akb (26 Sep 2013)

Sounds pretty reasonable to me. As has been said above, it costs them money to get the bike in for you to try, hence the deposit required for them to get it in for you. Not ideal I know, but LBS struggle as it is without the added costs of bringing a bike in (transport cost and bike fee) for an uncertain buyer. 

You say you are certain that you want it, so £200 shouldnt be an issue for you. 

Pay the deposit, try the bike for size. Simples.


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## screenman (26 Sep 2013)

How would you have tried the bespoke bike you talk about?


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## phil_hg_uk (26 Sep 2013)

I am afraid that if you came to me and asked me to order in a £2000 item so you could maybe buy it I wouldn't be interested either, if I did do that for everyone who asked I would go bust in about 6 months. 

I think a lot of shops are sick of people wanting to look at stuff just so they can go and buy it cheaper on the internet, not that I am saying you are going to do this but I can see their point.


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## kedab (26 Sep 2013)

mickle said:


> A £2000 bike will cost them - depending on what terms they're on - around £1300. And you want them to order it in on a _maybe_? You're havin a laugh.
> 
> We ask for a non-refundable 50% deposit before we order anything.


The result? BMC 2014 SLR02 paid for & ordered with Evans as I don't put up with being treated like another number by a store I've already spent +3k with. Their loss.


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## kedab (26 Sep 2013)

screenman said:


> How would you have tried the bespoke bike you talk about?


I thought long and hard about it. By the time I was done with the spec it was just shy of 3k. Too much bike for my capabilities & too much bike when I've got a baby 6 weeks away so I had a rethink


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## Mr Haematocrit (26 Sep 2013)

That's why I buy specialized.
Any bike I'm interested in I can have for a weekend for £25 which is discounted should I buy the bike.
The staff in the concept stores are trained on the products and support of them.

Specialized may be a little pricey for the spec, but you get in exchange outstanding customer service.
When they did a fork recall, they gave customers vouchers for the trouble. They recently sent me a water bottle and a note thanking me for being a customer..... these little gestures cost little and mean the world, they fight for my custom and never take it for granted.

I would never dream of coughing up 2k on a bike without first viewing and riding it and any retailer which is not willing to get me a bike in to test will lose my custom without a doubt. I have never placed a deposit on something I do not know if I want to purchase.


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## procel (26 Sep 2013)

The LBS position is understandable, but the OP said this was a Giant store (presumably the Cambridge branch). Even if they're a franchise system, there's central services - the interior design of them is (fantastic high quality and) obviously done by the same team and the websites for them all are the same. I don't think the OP is unreasonable to expect them to have a stock shifting system. Though I also think the refundable deposit idea to eliminate timewasters is a good idea.


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## swansonj (26 Sep 2013)

Have a bike made up to your exact spec, try it for a hundred days, money back if you don't like it? Thorn Cycles anyone?


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## mickle (26 Sep 2013)

kedab said:


> The result? BMC 2014 SLR02 paid for & ordered with Evans as I don't put up with being treated like another number by a store I've already spent +3k with. Their loss.


Their loss? Treated like a number? You're coming across as the sort of 'customer' most shops could do without.


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## Moda (26 Sep 2013)

akb said:


> As has been said above, it costs them money to get the bike in for you to try


The cost of doing business??


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## London Female (26 Sep 2013)

swansonj said:


> Have a bike made up to your exact spec, try it for a hundred days, money back if you don't like it? Thorn Cycles anyone?



That's who I went to. I had a 14 day money back guarantee if I didn't like it. I didn't like it, took it back, they made changes to it and then gave me an additional 100 days money back guarantee. So far it's going well and won't be needing to return it.


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## mickle (26 Sep 2013)

Moda said:


> The cost of doing business??


Many years ago I ordered a £1000 Pace mountain bike frame in for a regular customer who promised to buy it. He never came back. It sat on the wall for two years until we sold it for less that it cost us. Taking a 10% deposit is standard practice - I'm surprised that anyone could object to it.


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## mmmmartin (26 Sep 2013)

I have two Thorns, the Audax and the Sherpa, and they are both very good at doing what they are supposed to do. Reasonable price, I thought.


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## Cuchilo (26 Sep 2013)

kedab said:


> The result? BMC 2014 SLR02 paid for & ordered with Evans as I don't put up with being treated like another number by a store I've already spent +3k with. Their loss.


 C'mon , you changed your mind and it was nothing to do with the store treating you like a number was it ?
Hope you enjoy the new bike


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## Boris Bajic (26 Sep 2013)

We all have those moments when a retailer or supplier isn't marching to our drums.

It always niggles and it always seems that others aren't as fussed by it as we are.

These threads nearly always end with a "Ha! That'll teach 'em!" post about how much the OP spent with another retailer and how much it's the original shop's loss and just "Ha!"

But the truth is often far from a dozy, uninterested shop staff and a lazy company attitude. It's the real world and some suppliers just can't do a certain thing on a certain day.

It's good that the OP found a suitable alternative, but the first shop won't be weeping. They did what they could and they lost that sale. They'll win other ones.


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## zizou (26 Sep 2013)

Mr Haematocrit said:


> That's why I buy specialized.
> Any bike I'm interested in I can have for a weekend for £25 which is discounted should I buy the bike.
> The staff in the concept stores are trained on the products and support of them.
> 
> ...



I'm a Specialized fan too but they do not offer everything to try out - the same frame yeah to check the geometry but their entire catalogue is not available to demo and it would be unrealistic to expect everything to be available. They are probably the best of all the brands in terms of availability but Giant are pretty good too when it comes to being able to do a proper test ride rather than sitting on it in the store.

Incidentally did you test ride the Cavendish Venge before choosing to order? Or did you order it based on knowing the geometry from experience on other models in the Venge line?


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## Moda (26 Sep 2013)

Obviously there has to be an understanding on both sides. I don't think that any serious buyer would mind putting down a refundable deposit but as I recently experienced most want not only a substantial deposit but also expect it to be NON-REFUNDABLE. 

I don't expect a dealer to be substantially out of pocket but neither should a buyer be forced into a buy it or sod off choice.


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## phil_hg_uk (26 Sep 2013)

Moda said:


> Obviously there has to be an understanding on both sides. I don't think that any serious buyer would mind putting down a refundable deposit but as I recently experienced most want not only a substantial deposit but also expect it to be NON-REFUNDABLE.
> 
> I don't expect a dealer to be substantially out of pocket but neither should a buyer be forced into a buy it or sod off choice.



So if you were running a business selling bikes would you be happy to buy a bike of that value on the off chance that he might buy it and if he doesn't it will just sit there losing money ?


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## Mr Haematocrit (26 Sep 2013)

zizou said:


> Incidentally did you test ride the Cavendish Venge before choosing to order? Or did you order it based on knowing the geometry from experience on other models in the Venge line?



I purchased the Cav Venge based on my experience of the bike,I never asked to ride it. But to put it into contrast I test rode a Tarmac which was fitted with Zipp 202 wheels before buying my Olympic tarmac.. 

Although specialized stores understandably don't offer every single bike as a weekend tester my LBS will not ask for a deposit before getting a bike in, they will also let you ride it up the road.... I have also purchased bikes from specialized then changed my mind and returned it the next day and swapped it for another bike without issue.

I'm loyal to my LBS and the brand simply because they are loyal to me.


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## Mr Haematocrit (26 Sep 2013)

phil_hg_uk said:


> So if you were running a business selling bikes would you be happy to buy a bike of that value on the off chance that he might buy it and if he doesn't it will just sit there losing money ?



A bricks and mortar traditional bike shop has only one thing to offer and that is customer service. If you expect me to put a deposit on an item before getting to see it and possibly loose that deposit if I do not want the bike then the wisest thing to do is order online as you can return the goods under distance selling terms... The bike shops not offering a great service imho and yes imho it is the shops responsibility to get the goods in to attract the desired customer base.


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## phil_hg_uk (26 Sep 2013)

Mr Haematocrit said:


> A bricks and mortar traditional bike shop has only one thing to offer and that is customer service. If you expect me to put a deposit on an item before getting to see it and possibly loose that deposit if I do not want the bike then the wisest thing to do is order online as you can return the goods under distance selling terms... The bike shops not offering a great service imho and yes imho it is the shops responsibility to get the goods in to attract the desired customer base.



If you are a big company like evans then getting a bike in isn't that much of a problem as it will soon shift because of the number of stores they have. 

I don't know what size the LBS the op is talking about is but I have been trading for over 20 years and I have never ever ordered in an expensive item for a customer on spec and I never will because I would rather like to stay trading rather than sit on a load of expensive stock I cant shift.


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## Moda (26 Sep 2013)

It cuts both ways, would you expect a customer to take a £2000+ punt on a bike?

Surely a mutually beneficial compromise could be reached.

Purely out of interest does anyone know what sort of margins there are on bikes?


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## Cuchilo (26 Sep 2013)

Moda said:


> It cuts both ways, would you expect a customer to take a £2000+ punt on a bike?
> 
> Surely a compromise could be reached.


 
Like a non refundable deposit ?


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## Mr Haematocrit (26 Sep 2013)

phil_hg_uk said:


> If you are a big company like evans then getting a bike in isn't that much of a problem as it will soon shift because of the number of stores they have.
> 
> I don't know what size the LBS the op is talking about is but I have been trading for over 20 years and I have never ever ordered in an expensive item for a customer on spec and I never will because I would rather like to stay trading rather than sit on a load of expensive stock I cant shift.



I totally understand your position and I expect a big company like Evans would get different (bulk) purchase deals from cycle company's.
However I'm simply not willing to be placed in a position to lose money to examine goods before deciding if I want them.
I would like to clarify I support small retailers where possible and use a local grocer, butcher etc rather than a supermarket chain as I feel I get a decent service and products (price matters less if the service is great IMHO) the moment they ask me to put a deposit on my fruit and veg before seeing it they would loose my custom as I feel that as a customer the retailer should be looking after me, not the other way round.


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## Moda (26 Sep 2013)

How is that a compromise?


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## Cuchilo (26 Sep 2013)

> the moment they asked me to put a deposit on my fruit and veg before seeing it they would loose my custom


 
Youre not asking to look though , youre asking to take a bite out of it before you buy it .


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## Mr Haematocrit (26 Sep 2013)

Cuchilo said:


> Youre not asking to look though , youre asking to take a bite out of it before you buy it .



When I shop for fruit and veg at this time, I do not expect to take a bite... I expect to examine it and feel its ripeness. By asking me for a non refundable deposit I may get presented with a product I do not like or consider ripe... I assume the risk of the business.
Likewise I'm not asking to fall off, or crash a bike... I'm asking to examine it and feel what it rides like.

If I wish to consume either product I would buy it.

Do you think its the responsibility of the consumer to serve the problems and needs of the business?


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## Linford (26 Sep 2013)

Try getting a test ride on a brand new £16k MV Augusta........or a £12k zx10r if you think the lbs is unreasonable


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## Moda (26 Sep 2013)

I've no idea what bikes they are but I'd have no problem getting a test drive of an expensive BMW or Range Rover (still working on the MP412C) as it's expected.

I can't help but feel that the only winners in this are the chains like Evans that for can small (£25) refundable deposit will get you pretty much any bike you want.


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## Mr Haematocrit (26 Sep 2013)

Linford said:


> Try getting a test ride on a brand new £16k MV Augusta........or a £12k zx10r if you think the lbs is unreasonable



I got a test drive of a Carrera and Nissan GTR which are both vehicles in excess of 70k with a REFUNDABLE deposit.
So yes I think the LBS is being unreasonable... Although I think asking for a deposit to ensure no damage occurs is reasonable, making it non-refundable if you do not purchase the bike is not imho
There are lots of retailers which offer test rides and I expect and hope consumers would use them or alternatively save money and shop online as then at least you can return the goods under distance selling terms.
When you have small retailers placing such demands on the customer you start to understand the sorry state of highsteets across the land.


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## phil_hg_uk (26 Sep 2013)

Mr Haematocrit said:


> I got a test drive of a Carrera and Nissan GTR which are both vehicles in excess of 70k with a REFUNDABLE deposit.



Presumably those vehicles were in stock so you weren't asking them to go out and buy them so you could test drive them, so not really the same thing.


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## RWright (27 Sep 2013)

I thought the offer of letting you ride the one the member of staff owned was more than fair.


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## screenman (27 Sep 2013)

kedab said:


> I thought long and hard about it. By the time I was done with the spec it was just shy of 3k. Too much bike for my capabilities & too much bike when I've got a baby 6 weeks away so I had a rethink


Not quite the answer I was looking for.


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## gavintc (27 Sep 2013)

kedab said:


> The result? BMC 2014 SLR02 paid for & ordered with Evans as I don't put up with being treated like another number by a store I've already spent +3k with. Their loss.





kedab said:


> I thought long and hard about it. By the time I was done with the spec it was just shy of 3k. Too much bike for my capabilities & too much bike when I've got a baby 6 weeks away so I had a rethink



I wonder who has now lost out. I propose Evans as they have a 3k bike arriving and no buyer. The original LBS has since proved to be correctly cautious. I think Mickle's comments were spot on.


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## youngoldbloke (27 Sep 2013)

I haven't bought a complete bike from an LBS for many years now - I need a small size and the choice offered is abysmal. I had imagined the Giant shops being part of a large franchise operation would have been able to order in any of the range for a customer to try, or would at least have suggested an alternative with the same geometry, etc for the OP to try out before parting with £2K or so. We are constantly being encouraged to use our LBS - sorry, but for me it just doesn't work.


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## Linford (27 Sep 2013)

Mr Haematocrit said:


> I got a test drive of a Carrera and Nissan GTR which are both vehicles in excess of 70k with a REFUNDABLE deposit.
> So yes I think the LBS is being unreasonable... Although I think asking for a deposit to ensure no damage occurs is reasonable, making it non-refundable if you do not purchase the bike is not imho
> There are lots of retailers which offer test rides and I expect and hope consumers would use them or alternatively save money and shop online as then at least you can return the goods under distance selling terms.
> When you have small retailers placing such demands on the customer you start to understand the sorry state of highsteets across the land.



It was an accompanied drive though...I would also suggest that a superbike is substantially more difficult to ride than either of these.


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## Hip Priest (27 Sep 2013)

gavintc said:


> I wonder who has now lost out. I propose Evans as they have a 3k bike arriving and no buyer. The original LBS has since proved to be correctly cautious. I think Mickle's comments were spot on.



You've got the wrong end of the stick there.

The OP has bought the bike from Evans.


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## Moda (27 Sep 2013)

youngoldbloke said:


> We are constantly being encouraged to use our LBS - sorry, but for me it just doesn't work.


With much sadness I have to agree 

And it's not only bikes I wanted a Garmin Edge but wasn't sure what model 510 or 810 or even one of the older generation. I ended up with an 810 Ultimate bundle for around £500. Most LBS didn't have it in stock and weren't interested in ordering one. The ones that did showed no interest in trying to answer questions either referring me to Garmin or the Internet. Most LBS's from my experience saw there job as nothing more than taking my money. As I said... sad!


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## Linford (27 Sep 2013)

Problem with the LBS's sometimes is the owners


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## Kies (27 Sep 2013)

I find staff at a lbs are better than the owner. His desperation for a sale usually comes through and I tend to walk away.


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## Moda (27 Sep 2013)

Linford said:


> Problem with the LBS's sometimes is the owners


I can only speak as a consumer but in fairness it would be interesting to hear what an LBS owner has to say on the matter. I'm sure there are lots of stresses and strains us consumers know nothing about.


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## DCLane (27 Sep 2013)

My wife mentioned the LBS and local club to me this morning; if the LBS (who also run the club) had been less rude "I'd have spent a fortune there" in her words - and given I've spent over £4k on bikes/kit in 2 years, that'd have added something to his balance sheet. I use it, but only if I'm desperate.

Instead I'm using two others; one is an independent about 4 miles away and the other's Evans in Leeds.

And the local club? Nope - joined a different one.


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## mickle (27 Sep 2013)

Mr Haematocrit said:


> I got a test drive of a Carrera and Nissan GTR which are both vehicles in excess of 70k with a REFUNDABLE deposit.
> So yes I think the LBS is being unreasonable... Although I think asking for a deposit to ensure no damage occurs is reasonable, making it non-refundable if you do not purchase the bike is not imho
> There are lots of retailers which offer test rides and I expect and hope consumers would use them or alternatively save money and shop online as then at least you can return the goods under distance selling terms.
> When you have small retailers placing such demands on the customer you start to understand the sorry state of highsteets across the land.



The sort of customer who quibbles about paying a deposit on an expensive non-stock bike is the very sort of customer who insists that the bike they buy not be a 'demonstrator'. 

_'I don't want that one, I want a new one from a box! That one's been ridden!' _

'Yes. By you'.

_'Yeah, but it's been used now. The tyres are dirty. Can I have a discount?'_

'Get out'.


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## Linford (27 Sep 2013)

mickle said:


> The sort of customer who quibbles about paying a deposit on an expensive non-stock bike is the very sort of customer who insists that the bike they buy not be a 'demonstrator'.
> 
> _'I don't want that one, I want a new one from a box! That one's been ridden!' _
> 
> ...




I take it you are now working i a bike shop Mickle ?


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## Mr Haematocrit (27 Sep 2013)

mickle said:


> The sort of customer who quibbles about paying a deposit on an expensive non-stock bike is the very sort of customer who insists that the bike they buy not be a 'demonstrator'.
> _'I don't want that one, I want a new one from a box! That one's been ridden!' _
> 'Yes. By you'.
> _'Yeah, but it's been used now. The tyres are dirty. Can I have a discount?'_
> 'Get out'.



That might be your experience of some customers, but its unfair to place a blanket statement upon everyone, and I would like to make it clear I consider this behaviour to not be acceptable either.
I most certainly would not have an issue buying a bike which has been tested, my Venge, Sirrus and Dogma showed signs of being ridden..
In fact my Venge had scratches on the seat post where it has been adjusted for height, which did not concern me either..
The bikes under warranty is my own view.

A more interesting subject than I first thought and obviously I'm not aware of the inside of the industry or how it works.
I'm a old school kinda fella who does business on a handshake and I make my intent clear.... perhaps this is why I have no issues with my LBS and they will order me high value items without a deposit, if I say I want something I will buy it, if I say I want to look at something, they know I am unsure and want to look at something. 
I never ask or look at price and they never tell me, we have a certain degree of trust I feel.... Perhaps my experiences are due to not messing about myself and trying to be a reasonable person.

Can I ask people in the trade what percentage of your day is spent with people messing you about, if any?


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## kedab (27 Sep 2013)

mickle said:


> Their loss? Treated like a number? You're coming across as the sort of 'customer' most shops could do without.


really? shops could do without my custom because i expect a certain level of customer service? that kind of comment is exactly the sort of reason people think that one level above sh1t is acceptable customer service in this country.


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## kedab (27 Sep 2013)

phil_hg_uk said:


> If you are a big company like evans then getting a bike in isn't that much of a problem as it will soon shift because of the number of stores they have.
> 
> I don't know what size the LBS the op is talking about is but I have been trading for over 20 years and I have never ever ordered in an expensive item for a customer on spec and I never will because I would rather like to stay trading rather than sit on a load of expensive stock I cant shift.


i was talking about the Giant store in Cambridge. It isn't my LBS - it's a Giant branded and funded store AFAIK. i worked in retail many moons ago, for a much smaller outfit, if we had stock in another store, we'd shift it across on the next run. yes i'd have had to wait and been willing to wait for that to happen but i got a flat out 'no' and no matter what mickle says from behind his shop counter, making a glorious defence of british retail, that is rubbish customer service and i will not put up with it. i have money to spend, i like to spend it on shiny things, sometimes they are expensive things and no matter if they cost a tenner or ten thousand, i want to be made to feel i am the only person in that retailer's world for the few moments i'm taking of their time. if you can't do that, then you can't do customer service. i've been doing it for 18 years and it's not easy to do well, let alone really, really well. it is, however, all too easy to do very badly.


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## Boris Bajic (27 Sep 2013)

kedab said:


> really? shops could do without my custom because i expect a certain level of customer service? that kind of comment is exactly the sort of reason people think that one level above sh1t is acceptable customer service in this country.


 
You're happy now and you have what you want. I think the offer by the original store to sort out a ride on a staff member's bike is pretty cool. To my mind, that is customer service in spades.

The idea that a punter went to Evans for their superior customer service is like chopping in a VW for an Alfa to improve reliability.

The main thing is that you're happy with your choice, which you say you are. I'm not sure you sound very happy about it, but as long as you say you are, everyone is happy.


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## Cyclopathic (27 Sep 2013)

If somebody left a "deposit" on my bike I'd be well annoyed.


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## kedab (27 Sep 2013)

gavintc said:


> I wonder who has now lost out. I propose Evans as they have a 3k bike arriving and no buyer. The original LBS has since proved to be correctly cautious. I think Mickle's comments were spot on.


let me help you understand - i had been in touch with an outfit and ON PAPER, put a bike together. the price got a bit too hefty and i bailed. nobody has lost anything but a bit of time. they would not have begun building the bike until i gave them a 50% deposit, which i would have been more than happy to give them. they were excellent and helpful and all the things i hope for in a potential deal being done. i had previously spent upwards of 3k with the Giant store i asked to help me out. i was disappointed they said no. evans have clearly won out because after researching the BMC, checking out the frame sizes against my sizes, i am confident it'll fit. all good - nobody's died.


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## kedab (27 Sep 2013)

Boris Bajic said:


> You're happy now and you have what you want. I think the offer by the original store to sort out a ride on a staff member's bike is pretty cool. To my mind, that is customer service in spades.
> 
> The idea that a punter went to Evans for their superior customer service is like chopping in a VW for an Alfa to improve reliability.
> 
> The main thing is that you're happy with your choice, which you say you are. I'm not sure you sound very happy about it, but as long as you say you are, everyone is happy.


what seriously irked me boris was that they weren't interested until i asked them where i could buy one if they weren't stocking them. as soon as i asked that they were able to get one in...providing i give them a non refundable deposit. that's all. a small thing i grant you but it still irked me nonetheless. as for evans v anybody, i'm well aware that online behemoth's don't care a jot about the individual but i do love the bike and the faceless, contactless transaction was made without a crossed word being spoken . which was nice.


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## kedab (27 Sep 2013)

screenman said:


> How would you have tried the bespoke bike you talk about?


dude, sorry. i totally misread your original question...ignorant of me! i'd have tried it when they invited me down for a fit - i gave them all the measurements they asked for in a form they sent me.


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## pauldavid (27 Sep 2013)

kedab said:


> let me help you understand - i had been in touch with an outfit and ON PAPER, put a bike together. the price got a bit too hefty and i bailed. nobody has lost anything but a bit of time. they would not have begun building the bike until i gave them a 50% deposit, which i would have been more than happy to give them. they were excellent and helpful and all the things i hope for in a potential deal being done. i had previously spent upwards of 3k with the Giant store i asked to help me out. i was disappointed they said no. evans have clearly won out because after researching the BMC, checking out the frame sizes against my sizes, i am confident it'll fit. all good - nobody's died.


So have evans actually supplied a bike for to try or have you just researched sizes?

And if this sale has been done without seeing the BMC in the flesh then why could the same not have happened with Giant?


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## kedab (27 Sep 2013)

pauldavid said:


> So have evans actually supplied a bike for to try or have you just researched sizes?
> 
> And if this sale has been done without seeing the BMC in the flesh then why could the same not have happened with Giant?


because giant had lost my custom by that point - BMC have a sizing chart, i know it's not going to be far out. it's also on the evans site. i've paid my money, i've taken my choice. i would have taken that choice with giant, as i had with my two other bikes, if they'd not frustrated me.


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## RWright (28 Sep 2013)

kedab said:


> what seriously irked me boris was that they weren't interested until i asked them where i could buy one if they weren't stocking them. as soon as i asked that they were able to get one in...providing i give them a non refundable deposit. that's all. a small thing i grant you but it still irked me nonetheless. as for evans v anybody, i'm well aware that online behemoth's don't care a jot about the individual but i do love the bike and the faceless, contactless transaction was made without a crossed word being spoken . which was nice.


 
I might have missed something but it sounds like you still didn't get a test ride. How can you buy without a test ride first? 

Sorry for having that go at you but I couldn't resist. I sold motorcycles for quite a while. I dealt with this situation a lot. It was my job to "handle it".  Most of the time but not always it was no, sometimes on used Bikes we had we would but only if we were really comfortable with the person buying, as in knowing them and knowing they could buy. New bikes, especially ones like GSXR 1100's ect. Not gonna happen. They also happened to be limited enough in quantity that we could sell them at full pop anyway. You would be amazed at the number of people that want to "test ride" a bike but when I got down to how they were going to pay for it, I found out a whole lot of them couldn't buy s**t in a bucket, much less what they were wanting to test ride.
It is a difficult situation but it happens every day.


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## pauldavid (28 Sep 2013)

kedab said:


> because giant had lost my custom by that point - BMC have a sizing chart, i know it's not going to be far out. it's also on the evans site. i've paid my money, i've taken my choice. i would have taken that choice with giant, as i had with my two other bikes, if they'd not frustrated me.


But Giant don't keep the sizes/dimensions of their frames secret. So you could have done exactly the same thing as you've done with Evans from the outset.

They didn't frustrate you, you frustrated yourself when you assumed that because you'd spent money with them before they should offer you treatment that they wouldn't normally. They did offer to try and sort a ride on a bike with identical dimensions for fit purposes which should have sufficed as you are obviously already comfortable with the Giant product.

Good luck with the BMC, I hope it turns out to be as good as the Giant you really wanted.


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## subaqua (28 Sep 2013)

S1mon said:


> i think even evans want a deposit before they will get a certain not in stock bike to try


evans deposit is refundable though if the bike isn't the right though.

http://www.evanscycles.com/help/tes...ox_image_1&promo_ad=Homepage*UNITED%20KINGDOM


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## RWright (28 Sep 2013)

subaqua said:


> evans deposit is refundable though if the bike isn't the right though.
> 
> http://www.evanscycles.com/help/test-rides?promo_cmp=right_col_box_image_1&promo_ad=Homepage*UNITED%20KINGDOM


I am not absolutely sure but I don't think it is even legal to take a NONREFUNDABLE deposit on retail items around here. Some retailers might try to make you think it is, but I believe when it comes down to push and shove time a court won't let them do it.

The op just was not handled properly by the Giant sales person IMHO. Some customers have to be handled with kid gloves. In this case it cost the company a sale and it cost the customer an extra grand, still without having ever sat on a bike for size. The sales people at Evans did a better job of slowing things down and taking control of the situation.


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## Andrew_P (28 Sep 2013)

Everyone keeps ignoring the fact that Giant do a test ride program, and all Giant dealers have access to this. My understanding is that the dealer has to book the demo bike and Giant deliver to the store and leave it there for a set number of days.

Giant branded stores are just independent, but they get the gear cheaper if it is an all Giant retailer, and I would guess support on the store fitting.


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## mickle (28 Sep 2013)

kedab said:


> really? shops could do without my custom because i expect a certain level of customer service? that kind of comment is exactly the sort of reason people think that one level above sh1t is acceptable customer service in this country.


Because the level of customer service you expect is unreasonabel and unrealistic. IMO. 

I serve tens of retail customers daily. In the last eight months not a single person has objected to paying a 50% deposit.


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## Linford (28 Sep 2013)

Well I went and bought a Topeak bike case for my S3 from my LBS (Cheltenham Cycles) today. Great bunch of people in there, and gave me a discount as they see me now as a regular customer...result


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## youngoldbloke (29 Sep 2013)

If you can't view the item you wish to purchase without paying a 50% deposit (is that returnable if the item doesn't suit, Mickle?), what is the point of using your LBS? Online is quicker, cheaper, offers a far wider choice, and apparently better terms and conditions. Very few shops now offer much in the way of choice - they appear to be brand outlets - all Trek, or all Specialized, or Giant. They appear to be tied to a particular brand. I naively thought that as such they might offer a better service with regard to that brand's range - but in the OP's case apparently not. Returnable deposits, I understand, non-returnable deposits - not good.


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## Moda (29 Sep 2013)

mickle said:


> In the last eight months not a single person has objected to paying a 50% deposit.


Was it refundable?


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## mickle (1 Oct 2013)

Moda said:


> Was it refundable?


Nope.


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## youngoldbloke (1 Oct 2013)

Remarkable!


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## DCLane (1 Oct 2013)

Having gone to Edinburgh Cycles in Leeds I was surprised at their test ride offering.

On the phone when I asked about a test ride it was "you can ride it round our car park at most".

Having got there and chatted with one of their staff (Aaaron if you're looking EBC), he asked me to leave my credit card (which is still there - must collect it tomorrow) and suggested I take as long as I wanted.

I test-rode the demo 2014 Whyte 805 - which had only arrived that day and been built up quickly for me. That was followed by the 2014 Genesis Croix de Fer. For both I did a couple of miles, hills, park, etc.

And yes, I ordered the Whyte  - I like good customer service.


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## kedab (4 Oct 2013)

Love this forum for healthy debate & nearly always without snidey remarks. Just as an FYI to those that asked, I can't test ride the BMC - they dont take stock of it til the 9th - prepared to wait & take abit of a chance? Yep, that's me. Prepared to accept dismissive customer service? Nope


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## Moda (4 Oct 2013)

mickle said:


> Nope.



Which to my mind suggests they weren't serious about a test ride or are stinking filthy wealthy.


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## Jezston (4 Oct 2013)

mickle said:


> Because the level of customer service you expect is unreasonabel and unrealistic. IMO.
> 
> I serve tens of retail customers daily. In the last eight months not a single person has objected to paying a 50% deposit.



Seriously?

If I was seriously interested in a bike, but wanted to try it out first, I'd be happy to pay a deposit. Let's say I'm looking at a £2k bike, I pay you the £1k, you get it in, I try it out, I don't like it - I'm a thousand pounds out? F**k that!

But on your original response - I'm disappointed in you, Mickle. This isn't some little LBS being expected to buy in stock they then aren't going to be able to shift - it's an official Giant store. If they aren't able to chuck bikes between their stores and warehouse for people to try out that's pretty poor and obviously going to cost them customers.

I wouldn't have said that's _terrible _customer service, but it's bad business for a major brand.


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## mickle (4 Oct 2013)

Official Giant stores are franchises - not Giant owned. It costs £16 to courier a bike in a box and up to an hour of workshop tome to build a regular bike @+/-£35ph. And once built they dont go back in a box without a fight. Its not like they can be beamed around like off of Star Trek.

I should mention that some of my bikes cost £450 to ship from abroad, many are individually built to order and some take 3 hours to build - so my end of the bike industry isn't very representative.


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## Moda (4 Oct 2013)

It's hard not to come back to my original point of "it's the cost of doing business". Do you think that the estate agent offers you a cup of coffee because he thinks your thirsty? 

The cost of the mechanic to put the bike together is only an issue if he's got too much work otherwise would you prefer s/he twiddle there thumbs?


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## procel (4 Oct 2013)

My wife is going to look at a bike tomorrow at CycleSurgery in Croydon that they shipped from their Bristol store for her to have a look at. She didn't have to press them to do it - in fact the salesman pushed her a bit into agreeing! And it's a 2013 sale model so presumably the profit margin is lower, but that's what you do if you really want to sell.


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## kedab (29 Oct 2013)

hey CC'ers! hope you're all doing alright...just to bookend this thread, i got my new bike  after the little disagreement with Giant, i was then hoping to get a BMC teammachine slr02 from evans...that shipment got delayed - they put the date back more than a month...i was going to wait...then found my new bike hiding away in the corner of the same website looking a little sorry for itself...SO! i got a 2013 _merckx emx-3_ - down from 2.8k to just over 1.9! rode it for the first time Sunday morning. oh my goodness. it is a dream. i'm not sure if it's the geometry, the carbon lay up or a combination of all the things that make a bike work but i was amazed at how comfortable it is, almost straight out the box, a quick fettle with the bars and saddle and seat post and it was pretty much bang on first time. love it love it love it!


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## Lincov (29 Oct 2013)

Hadn't spotted this thread before but to add my tuppence-worth, I ordered a bike with my local Trek shop, when it came they built it up for me and I sat on it and decided that I wanted a larger frame size and a different model. They ordered that through, set it up for me, I rode it round the shop (could have rode round the car park had it not been raining), and bought it - the first time a penny had changed hands. That is the basic level of customer service I would expect for buying what is basically my new mode of transport, and I was spending a fraction of the OP. I'd have been pretty disappointed if I'd been forced to buy the wrong bike! Surely a refundable deposit is the maximum a LBS should expect?


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## Roadrider48 (29 Oct 2013)

Mr Haematocrit said:


> A bricks and mortar traditional bike shop has only one thing to offer and that is customer service. If you expect me to put a deposit on an item before getting to see it and possibly loose that deposit if I do not want the bike then the wisest thing to do is order online as you can return the goods under distance selling terms... The bike shops not offering a great service imho and yes imho it is the shops responsibility to get the goods in to attract the desired customer base.


Well put!


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## beastie (29 Oct 2013)

A new bike is, for me, a considerable amount of money. I would happily pay a deposit (refundable). This shows that I am seriously considering a purchase. If I hadchosen a particular bike and merely wished to check the fit then I would MAYBE pay a non refundable deposit on the grounds that I will be buying a bike, but I want the right size. If the first bike is too small then I would take the next size up. The LBS can take the risk if they want the sale. Other wise hello Wiggle etc etc.


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## Roadrider48 (29 Oct 2013)

I also don't think it's unreasonable to try a bike, at least for size, when you're proposing to spend that amount of money. As far a s a no-refundable deposit goes. They can kiss my a***!


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## Hip Priest (29 Oct 2013)

kedab said:


> hey CC'ers! hope you're all doing alright...just to bookend this thread, i got my new bike  after the little disagreement with Giant, i was then hoping to get a BMC teammachine slr02 from evans...that shipment got delayed - they put the date back more than a month...i was going to wait...then found my new bike hiding away in the corner of the same website looking a little sorry for itself...SO! i got a 2013 _merckx emx-3_ - down from 2.8k to just over 1.9! rode it for the first time Sunday morning. oh my goodness. it is a dream. i'm not sure if it's the geometry, the carbon lay up or a combination of all the things that make a bike work but i was amazed at how comfortable it is, almost straight out the box, a quick fettle with the bars and saddle and seat post and it was pretty much bang on first time. love it love it love it!



A Merckx is Belgian and is therefore cooler than the BMC or the Giant. You win!


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## TheDoctor (29 Oct 2013)

Merckx is beyond cool. Eddy is Rule 5 personified.


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## CopperCyclist (29 Oct 2013)

kedab said:


> Love this forum for healthy debate & nearly always without snidey remarks. Just as an FYI to those that asked, I can't test ride the BMC - they dont take stock of it til the 9th - prepared to wait & take abit of a chance? Yep, that's me. Prepared to accept dismissive customer service? Nope



You sort of can though as buying online gives you a 14 day return period. Unless of course you paid for it in store  

Personally I can easily understand both sides. I wouldn't be upset with a store that couldn't get the exact bike in for a test ride, and would still buy from them. The flipside is that if I knew a shop which did offer the service, I would almost certainly buy from them instead. 

I'm sure that the retailers have done their sums and tests and know whether the extra sales they got would properly offset the time wasters who made them get stock they may struggle to sell.


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## cd365 (30 Oct 2013)

kedab said:


> hey CC'ers! hope you're all doing alright...just to bookend this thread, i got my new bike  after the little disagreement with Giant, i was then hoping to get a BMC teammachine slr02 from evans...that shipment got delayed - they put the date back more than a month...i was going to wait...then found my new bike hiding away in the corner of the same website looking a little sorry for itself...SO! i got a 2013 _merckx emx-3_ - down from 2.8k to just over 1.9! rode it for the first time Sunday morning. oh my goodness. it is a dream. i'm not sure if it's the geometry, the carbon lay up or a combination of all the things that make a bike work but i was amazed at how comfortable it is, almost straight out the box, a quick fettle with the bars and saddle and seat post and it was pretty much bang on first time. love it love it love it!


I bought an Eddie Merckx EMX-1 a few months ago, I spent a serious amount on a bike I never thought I would, I do not regret it one bit, a lovely bike to ride.


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