# Incentivising cycling at work



## Joey Shabadoo (11 Jul 2022)

I've been given the task of encouraging people at my work to cycle instead of using the car to commute. I've come up with the idea of giving people a minute off work for every mile they commute by bike. They all live within 5 miles or so so it would mean they get an afternoon off every month if they cycled every day. What's the best way of monitoring this to make sure people don't drive in, park around the corner and cycle the last half mile? Strava? Is there something easier to use, less intrusive? I'm thinking it might develop into a work Strava group thing where people might be encouraged to cycle more socially.

Any thoughts on the best way to set this up?


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## biggs682 (11 Jul 2022)

Ask them if they want a healthier life?


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## Tail End Charlie (11 Jul 2022)

Not sure if an afternoon off is the right way to encourage. It may cause divisions and arguments, not to mention the monitoring. Perhaps some sort of reward (I'm thinking sandwich or coffee) would be more useful. People wouldn't buck the system for that, but they might for an afternoon off.
Good task to have though, and kudos to your company for considering it.


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## Ming the Merciless (11 Jul 2022)

Charge £1,000 per year for a parking space


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## Cathryn (11 Jul 2022)

I listened to an interview recently with Isla Rowntree and she pays people £2 per journey, ie £4/day or £20/week. It didn't address how people might cheat - that's so sad you have to consider that.


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## sleuthey (11 Jul 2022)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> they get an afternoon off every month if they cycled every day.



I would consider the effects on motivation for staff who have a hidden disability and are unable to take part.


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## Sharky (11 Jul 2022)

Ensure there are sufficient showers, bike storage, drying areas, lockers available.

Work on the management first. If they start cycling, the workers will follow.

Invite "cycle to work" providers to give demonstrations/talks.

Hold specific, well publicised cycle to work days. Say last Friday of each month and provide do-nuts for those taking part.

Some ideas

Good luck


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## Joey Shabadoo (11 Jul 2022)

Cathryn said:


> I listened to an interview recently with Isla Rowntree and she pays people £2 per journey, ie £4/day or £20/week. It didn't address how people might cheat - that's so sad you have to consider that.



It was the boss who considered the cheating. I was just going to go on trust. We know how far each commute is, if they turn up on a bike I'd consider it done.


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## Joey Shabadoo (11 Jul 2022)

Sharky said:


> Ensure there are sufficient showers, bike storage, drying areas, lockers available.
> 
> Work on the management first. If they start cycling, the workers will follow.
> 
> ...



Bikes can be stored indoors, we have a shower (there's only 20-odd staff there) and we have a cycle-to-work scheme. I was going to ask our workshop if they'd be able to do minor repairs and servicing on bikes.


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## MontyVeda (11 Jul 2022)

I had a bit of a spat a few years ago with my employer regarding cycling to work (there's a thread somewhere)... they encourage the C2W scheme as one of the great bonuses employees get... but there's nowhere safe and secure to park bicycles at work. There are the customer racks which have a capacity for 6 bikes, but on a 10 hour shift I don't want my bike locked up at the front of the store for the entire day, plus there were about 6 of us who regularly cycled which would have left little room for customers. I want it out of sight, under shelter, indoors but not in the way. We used a store room that was all of these, but then some regional manager decided we shouldn't but bikes in it... hence the spat.

The incentive for me is somewhere to park it whilst at work


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## Sharky (11 Jul 2022)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> It was the boss who considered the cheating. I was just going to go on trust. We know how far each commute is, if they turn up on a bike I'd consider it done.



Although a regular commuter by bike, some days I " cheated". I used a garage local to my office for my cars annual service. On those days, I would drive to the garage, then cycle to the office. Colleagues would congratulate me on cycling in, but had to confess that I only cycled 3 miles from the garage.


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## vickster (11 Jul 2022)

Funded discounts at a local bike shop? Or a monthly draw to win an LBS voucher (those with no interest in cycling wouldn’t cheat to enter)


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## mustang1 (11 Jul 2022)

@Joey Shabadoo , why does your employer want people to ride to work in the first place?


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## All uphill (11 Jul 2022)

biggs682 said:


> Ask them if they want a healthier life?



Great that there is a desire to encourage cycle commuting.

Just discussing this at work will get people thinking about cycling; to me the rewards are health and pleasure, so long as the parking and changing facilities are up to scratch, and any other incentives may lead to feelings of unfairness.

A cold drink on arrival, or a bit of cycle confidence training might be good , but time off seems divisive.


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## Sittingduck (11 Jul 2022)

In one way I think it's a good idea but monitoring this sounds like an utter nightmare (and possible some could argue an invasion of privacy?) Not saying I don't agree with it just that some folks would make it very difficult to police but I think if you have to virtually bribe people to cycle commute then they are likely not going to stick with it or play by the rules. I don't think there is an easy answer to this but interesting to see suggestions.

Edit to add - the main factors (at least for me) would be proper showers and changing facilities and lockers, plus safe indoor cycle parking etc. More about removing possible off putting blockers, than incentivising. I can see from your response a couple of lines up that these things are in place so maybe if people are made more aware of it or it is promoted as a healthy month in summer it could stick.


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## Joey Shabadoo (11 Jul 2022)

mustang1 said:


> @Joey Shabadoo , why does your employer want people to ride to work in the first place?



It's part of our sustainability efforts and helps cut CO2 emissions. The C2W scheme was put in place as a result of a request from a worker.


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## Debade (11 Jul 2022)

This is the program I would add to your investigation. Sorry, I can’t get to the link right now but it is the League of American Bicyclists, Bicycle Friendly Business program. It will provide the criteria for a business to qualify for the designation Bicycle Friendly Business. It will also provide the levels that can be earned. And a list of businesses that have earned the award. You could ultimately reach out to one or mote them and learn their experience. Perhaps there will be one in a related industry but any will likely be helpful.

I would also search to learn if there is an equivalent program on your side of the pond

Your management should know the ‘ante’. for a successful program which includes a safe and protective place to store the commuter bike, a shower, etc. This is all discussed on the BFB website.

Good luck and if you have trouble finding the website or have general questions, feel free to send a message.


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## Moodyman (11 Jul 2022)

I think I would promote the healthier, sexier lifestyle. Financial rewards are likely to encourage cheating.


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## markemark (11 Jul 2022)

Why is it any of the business of the company how an employee gets to work? If there’s a cost to the business, eg parking facilities, then manage those costs by either charging or reducing the spaces.


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## ebikeerwidnes (11 Jul 2022)

I would start with safe secure parking for bikes and facilities for showers and lockers.

Monitoring is rather difficult without coming over all Big Brother - why not introduce a monthly prize fund instead where everyone who cycles in gets a free entry.

Also - if you use Strava - or something similar - like that then it would count as commercial usage - you would need to talk to them about how you are allowed to do this. Which may be an advantage as they will probably already have systems set up to help you.


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## Landsurfer (11 Jul 2022)

2nd Friday afternoon each month at our work is Cycling, walking, swimming or down the pub afternoon for all the staff..
All staff are salaried and work 0830 to 1600 but are invariably coming in from 0730 hrs onward ....
So Sports Afternoon once a month it is.


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## Chislenko (11 Jul 2022)

One possible problem to consider when offering rewards then this could discriminate against those who can't (disability / distance) cycle to work who then are not in a position to get these rewards.


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## Joey Shabadoo (11 Jul 2022)

markemark said:


> Why is it any of the business of the company how an employee gets to work? If there’s a cost to the business, eg parking facilities, then manage those costs by either charging or reducing the spaces.





1) A healthy workforce is a happy workforce and a happy workforce is a productive workforce, less absences and a better work atmosphere.
2) We all need to cut CO2 emissions wherever we can and this helps


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## Arrowfoot (11 Jul 2022)

Building on the existing program plus the strava suggestion,
1) formal sign up to the program so those who want to participate are not forced into it to avoid legal issues.
2) Condition of entry is strava and limited audit sampling every 3 months - candidates are picked randomly 
3) Candidates to submit claims officially
4) Target should be 80% to provide allowance for being sick, inclement weather, Garmin battery ran out, the toast was burnt days etc 

People less likely to cheat if a program requires formal participation notice and the need to submit claims indicating their mileage.


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## Chislenko (11 Jul 2022)

I suppose one other thing to consider is some employees may not own a bike 🙂


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## Sittingduck (11 Jul 2022)

Company invests in some second hand bikes - go to refuse centre and make do up a handful. Lend them to prospective participants if they would like to try it out for a couple of months first?


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## Smokin Joe (11 Jul 2022)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> 1) A healthy workforce is a happy workforce and a happy workforce is a productive workforce, less absences and a better work atmosphere.
> 2) We all need to cut CO2 emissions wherever we can and this helps



Riding a bike does not stop people from picking up illnesses like a cold or the occasional virus, by far the most common reason for absence. And everyone having to shower on arrival would knock a massive hole in the environmental stuff.

And why on earth would people need to shower after a five or six mile commute? It isn't a Grand Tour mountain stage.


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## Sittingduck (11 Jul 2022)

Smokin Joe said:


> And why on earth would people need to shower after a five or six mile commute? It isn't a Grand Tour mountain stage.



Each to their own, I suppose. Depends on speed, effort, gradient, ambient temperature etc. I for one would always want to be fresh and clean at work. One place I worked didn't have facilities and had to rely on baby wipes, towel and deodorant after a quick wash in the loos. Not great, imho.


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## matticus (11 Jul 2022)

Smokin Joe said:


> And everyone having to shower on arrival would knock a massive hole in the environmental stuff.
> 
> And why on earth would people need to shower after a five or six mile commute?



Make up your mind!


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## HobbesOnTour (11 Jul 2022)

I think it's quite a sad state of affairs that management jump to the conclusion that people will cheat. It suggests so many things and none of them are positive.

People are motivated by different things. For some, a bike ride might be a quicker way to work than a car or public transport. For others it might be the fresh air and a break from stress - but then again if it's in a busy city...... It could be fitness or it could be a money saver. Strava might appeal to the competitive ones and be a total turn off for others.

Then there's the fact that there are cyclists, people who ride bikes, people who never ride bikes and people who would never ride a bike. With 20 employees it can't be that hard to have a chat and find out what puts people off? And then work to overcome those. Of course, it would be helpful if management have a budget in mind.

Unfortunately I can see a whole lot of legal problems if work supplies bikes or carries out repairs or servicing. 

I'd imagine (totally non-scientific) that fear or anxiety plays a part. Fear of an accident, fear of discomfort, fear of breaking down, fear of being the last, sweaty cyclist to show up. Jim or Jemima might be perfectly happy to cycle to work but perhaps their spouse isn't.

You know, with only 20 employees it would be possible for you as the "experienced" commuter to help them plan decent routes from home to work and back again..... And even ride with them once or twice, legalities permitting. 

There's some good suggestions here - at a minimum a decent place to store bikes - but I think the best source are the people you want to motivate. Ask them.
And yourself. Arriving in fresh, chirpy and not feckin' and blinding about the traffic on the roads would help. 

And Google. See what else has worked.

Good luck and please report back on progress if any.


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## Joey Shabadoo (11 Jul 2022)

Really good points.

I think it shouldn't be seen as a standalone thing - we're working on all kinds of employee benefits; introducing private healthcare, dressdown Fridays, Birthdays off, the Cycle to Work Scheme itself and this is just an extension of all that. Nobody is forcing anyone to commute by bike, just as we aren't forcing people to take up the reduced gym memberships we negotiated. Since I was made "sustainability champion", we've brought in a lot of schemes like this as well as renovating the building, new LED lights, recycling bins etc and have more planned - new solar powered forklifts for example.

Those that want to commute by bike can and we're going to bring in a rewards scheme to encourage it.

Discussed it with a colleague at lunchtime and the suggestion has been made for an airing room for wet clothes in the winter - not just for the cyclists. We're also going to put in new lockers for everyone. We'll put in a proper bike shelter too rather than cluttering up the warehouse.

I totally agree though that monitoring it through Strava isn't good and I'm going to recommend we just trust people. Out of 20, if we get even 3 or 4 doing it regularly we'll be doing well.


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## tfc03 (11 Jul 2022)

Parking cash out schemes are very popular in the US, less so in the UK. You give people a few quid each day they DONT use the car park. [while also doing all the stuff mentioned above regarding providing secure bike storage etc.]. Scant detail of one scheme here: https://www.mobility-academy.eu/mod/book/tool/print/index.php?id=315


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## Phaeton (11 Jul 2022)

HobbesOnTour said:


> I think it's quite a sad state of affairs that management jump to the conclusion that people will cheat. It suggests so many things and none of them are positive.



It maybe a bad state of affairs, but it shows a certain amount of naivety on your side, if you thought it doesn't need to be considered. There is a certain element in most workplaces whose natural instinct is to think "What's in it for me" and "What can I do to make my benefits better"


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## Supersuperleeds (11 Jul 2022)

Start letting the tyres down of those that drive into work


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## markemark (11 Jul 2022)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> 1) A healthy workforce is a happy workforce and a happy workforce is a productive workforce, less absences and a better work atmosphere.
> 2) We all need to cut CO2 emissions wherever we can and this helps


Excellent goals for a company.

Is your company going to reward those that eat healthily, stop smoking, cut down on drinking and not take flights?


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## steveindenmark (11 Jul 2022)

I would not offer an incentive. But I would make sure there was secure bike parking and showers for those who wanted to cycle.


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## BoldonLad (11 Jul 2022)

Not a personal incentive perhaps, but, could the Company lobby the local authority for "safe routes" to cycle?, in addition to the suggestions so far, and/or facilities already provided.


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## HobbesOnTour (11 Jul 2022)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> Out of 20, if we get even 3 or 4 doing it regularly we'll be doing well.


With such a small workforce I genuinely can't see "cheating" being an issue. Then again, I'm naive 
Also, the fact that there's a whole plethora of other things happening is a bit of motivation in itself.
The drying room for all is a good example of how an incentive or investment for one "group" can benefit all.



Phaeton said:


> It maybe a bad state of affairs, but it shows a certain amount of naivety on your side, if you thought it doesn't need to be considered. There is a certain element in most workplaces whose natural instinct is to think "What's in it for me" and "What can I do to make my benefits better"


Naive I may be (although I'd suggest willing to give the benefit of the doubt as a more positive, less insulting label) but at least I answered the OP.


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## MontyVeda (11 Jul 2022)

markemark said:


> Is your company going to reward those that eat healthily, stop smoking, cut down on drinking and not take flights?
> 
> Excellent goals for a company.
> 
> Is your company going to reward those that eat healthily, stop smoking, cut down on drinking and not take flights?


We heard you the first time 

Eating healthy, stopping smoking, cutting down drinking comes with it's own rewards.
Unless the flights are for work purposes, it's nowt to do with the employer how one gets to their holiday destination.


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## mustang1 (11 Jul 2022)

I cannot think of a good answer here but here's an idea...

Ask people what they would like when they drive in to work. For example, a parking space closer to the main entrance of your office, or a financial assistance program to aid with the rising price of fuel. 

And then tell them bike parking spaces will be reserved in the car park closest to the main entrance plus they would have used no gasoline. Then also provide luncheon vouchers because the cyclists have to eat more to keep going (although in 5 miles it's probably zero).

This plan has many flaws, I know.... I recall when I used to bike-commute. If I chose to, my train travel was free of charge but I still _chose_ to ride a bike because I _wanted_ to. I'm not sure how to get people riding; if the high fuel prices hasn't motivated the people, IDK what will (short of financial incentives that could backfire).

Hey, how about free monthly bike servicing program?


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## wiggydiggy (11 Jul 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> I would start with safe secure parking for bikes and facilities for showers and lockers.



+1

My old work building did not have an accesible shower, or a secure bike facility. I compromised by keeping my bike in my office, and ignoring complaints about any BO!

Ive been back on a site a couple times since starting to WFH and one of the new buildings has a shower in every toilet room, lockers and more secure bicycle parking. Thats a massive improvement.


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## markemark (11 Jul 2022)

MontyVeda said:


> We heard you the first time
> 
> Eating healthy, stopping smoking, cutting down drinking comes with it's own rewards.
> Unless the flights are for work purposes, it's nowt to do with the employer how one gets to their holiday destination.



….nor is it anything to do with the employer on how staff get to work unless there are costs associated with parking etc. 

The op said it’s because they want a healthy and productive workforce and to cut down on pollution…all equally, if not more addressed, with my suggestions.


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## ebikeerwidnes (11 Jul 2022)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> 1) A healthy workforce is a happy workforce and a happy workforce is a productive workforce, less absences and a better work atmosphere.
> 2) We all need to cut CO2 emissions wherever we can and this helps


Also - car parking space costs the company money - especially if the company expands

Cycle parking and facilities take up less space and hence reduce the overhead of staff parking
Doesn;t apply to all companies - but it does for quite a lot


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## MontyVeda (11 Jul 2022)

markemark said:


> ….nor is it anything to do with the employer on how staff get to work unless there are costs associated with parking etc.
> 
> The op said it’s because they want a healthy and productive workforce and to cut down on pollution…all equally, if not more addressed, with my suggestions.



It's about the carbon footprint of the employer... how people get to work can affect that. How they go on holiday probably won't.



Joey Shabadoo said:


> It's part of our sustainability efforts and helps cut CO2 emissions. ...


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## teeonethousand (11 Jul 2022)

In my humble experience it is more successful to understand and remove barriers than to incentivise. (Sounds like a great company though)


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## PK99 (11 Jul 2022)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> I've been given the task of encouraging people at my work to cycle instead of using the car to commute. I've come up with the idea of giving people a minute off work for every mile they commute by bike. They all live within 5 miles or so so it would mean they get an afternoon off every month if they cycled every day. What's the best way of monitoring this to make sure people don't drive in, park around the corner and cycle the last half mile? Strava? Is there something easier to use, less intrusive? I'm thinking it might develop into a work Strava group thing where people might be encouraged to cycle more socially.
> 
> Any thoughts on the best way to set this up?



If you had someone working there who was disabled and could not cycle, and therefore did not have access to the half-day off a month that would be textbook indirect discrimination, the fact that this would be given to someone simply doing what they had always done would be doubling down on the discrimination.

ACAS:
Indirect discrimination​Indirect discrimination can happen when there are rules or arrangements that apply to a group of employees or job applicants, but in practice are less fair to a certain protected characteristic.


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## Tail End Charlie (11 Jul 2022)

This is one of the best threads in ages, some great points. Thinking about it further I'd agree that removing barriers is more important than incentives. Please let us know how things go on.


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## MontyVeda (11 Jul 2022)

Totally agree on removing barriers... but some folk are soo car centric, they won't think _oh they've got a bike shed, showers, etc..._

I've worked with plenty of people who'd arrive at work furious every morning because they've been stuck in traffic for most of their two mile commute, then complaining some more because they struggled to park and at the cost of said parking space... and other colleagues, in the same store, who live in the same suburb who walk to work day in day out because it's actually quicker than driving or getting the bus ...and the drivers just won't entertain the idea of changing their habits, even when it saves them time and money!


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## Joey Shabadoo (11 Jul 2022)

PK99 said:


> If you had someone working there who was disabled and could not cycle, and therefore did not have access to the half-day off a month that would be textbook indirect discrimination, the fact that this would be given to someone simply doing what they had always done would be doubling down on the discrimination.
> 
> ACAS:
> Indirect discrimination​Indirect discrimination can happen when there are rules or arrangements that apply to a group of employees or job applicants, but in practice are less fair to a certain protected characteristic.



Food for thought.

To my knowledge there's nobody there with any obvious disability that would debar them from this. It's something that I've brought up as my wife is disabled and I'm aware we have no lift to the upper floors. Our ground floor workshop is currently being renovated and we're designing one of the workbenches to be variable height to fit a wheelchair user, should one ever work for us. AIUI the law says employers have to take reasonable steps to accommodate all abilities - in this case, would it work if we had something of equal value open to those who couldn't cycle?


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## fossyant (11 Jul 2022)

markemark said:


> Why is it any of the business of the company how an employee gets to work? If there’s a cost to the business, eg parking facilities, then manage those costs by either charging or reducing the spaces.



It's all about carbon footprint, and bigger employers have to estimate it as best they can. Legal requirements


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## Gillstay (11 Jul 2022)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> Bikes can be stored indoors, we have a shower (there's only 20-odd staff there) and we have a cycle-to-work scheme. I was going to ask our workshop if they'd be able to do minor repairs and servicing on bikes.



The servicing could be the reward system.


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## ClichéGuevara (11 Jul 2022)

biggs682 said:


> Ask them if they want a healthier life?



Interestingly, according the experts in behaviour change, health is a poor tool to use to encourage lifestyle changes.


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## teeonethousand (11 Jul 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> Interestingly, according the experts in behaviour change, health is a poor tool to use to encourage lifestyle changes.



I would agree if we are talking *future *health….making inconvenient changes now that pay off in the future is an age old problem across many change initiatives. However, immediate health issues do usually stir up some drastic changes even if short lived (not meant as a pun ). Even then, some people prefer to drift into trouble.

back to the scheme…if you have to also build in an incentive I wonder if ‘earning’ some kind of credit to be given to a good cause would work with less ’cheating’ …could also be extended to other ‘green’ behaviours so could be inclusive to those that have to pass on the cycling.


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## Chislenko (11 Jul 2022)

@Joey Shabadoo 

Don't do it mate, John from packing who previously came to work by car without so much of a scratch gets knocked off his bike and killed. 

John's wife Pamela sues the company and you personally for being complicit in his death as if you and your company hadn't "pressured" him in to cycling to work he would still be alive.

John's son, Ethan also blames you and one night down The Olde King's Head he catches sight of you, comes over and gives you a good pasting.


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## Hicky (11 Jul 2022)

The strongest incentive is financial either positive or negative. 
My workplace(Uni) has a whole sector on sustainability, the most recent scheme is to hire(at the uni’s expense) an ebike for a short period of time to try and capture those who maybe considering it. The problem, zero charging points on campus, nor are you allowed to take bikes into the buildings. Come term time the volume of parking is as you imagine, not enough.🤯

As for financial, we’ve trialed hybrid working post covid for those who can, I presume to aid those who are now no longer using the car parks as often(we used to have fees removed before tax out of the salary) we’ve now moved to being charged per visit based against your pay grade….the downside is it’s effectively raised the cost to around 50% of previous.
Added in the additional travel time and ballsup to the road network and building works going on in Manchester, driving compared to 5yrs ago is a mare. Burnham isn’t achieving much with his beeline either. 
In short good facilities(showering/parking/locker). Those who want to, will.


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## ClichéGuevara (11 Jul 2022)

I reckon if you were to survey staff, you'd have a hard core that would never ride a bike no matter what, and a selection that would be happy to even without encouragement, which leaves your main targets, and people to take the most note of their replies, the ones that 'would, but...' and looking at subtle ways to reduce the 'but' elements even if they only rode in for part of the time.

I'm assuming that all the 20 actually live within a reasonable cycling distance too. If not, train or drive and ride could be an option, especially if the non-car element is a pain to drive and there's a decent cycle route option.


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## Mike_P (11 Jul 2022)

Simply promote the secure cycle parking and showers Savings on vehicle costs (fuel) or public transport fares will encourage those who are open to the option.


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## Brooks (11 Jul 2022)

Some cracking ideas on here, I've enjoyed this thread. I'd charge people to park their cars on site and use this revenue to provide cycle parking that is secure. Lockers, showers, drying room etc, whatever is needed. If the drivers complain just tell them they are paying for it due too driving in, if they cycle no charge. Incentive right there.
Any funds left over go to a monthly social evening down the pub, drivers won't be excluded as they just have to put into the whip due to not earning the privilege 😜🚴


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## PK99 (11 Jul 2022)

Brooks said:


> Some cracking ideas on here, I've enjoyed this thread.* I'd charge people to park their cars on site a*nd use this revenue to provide cycle parking that is secure. Lockers, showers, drying room etc, whatever is needed. If the drivers complain just* tell them they are paying for it due too driving in, if they cycle no charge*. Incentive right there.
> Any funds left over go to* a monthly social evening down the pub*, drivers won't be excluded as they just have to put into the whip due to not earning the privilege 😜🚴



Where does the partially disabled Muslim fit in?
Or the female employee nervous about lone cycling in the dark in the winter?
#IndirectDiscrimination

Encouragement by facilities is legally fine.
Bribing or punishing is not.


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## Debade (12 Jul 2022)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> Really good points.
> 
> I think it shouldn't be seen as a standalone thing - we're working on all kinds of employee benefits; introducing private healthcare, dressdown Fridays, Birthdays off, the Cycle to Work Scheme itself and this is just an extension of all that. Nobody is forcing anyone to commute by bike, just as we aren't forcing people to take up the reduced gym memberships we negotiated. Since I was made "sustainability champion", we've brought in a lot of schemes like this as well as renovating the building, new LED lights, recycling bins etc and have more planned - new solar powered forklifts for example.
> 
> ...



I have been to the Google bike garage. It is a fenced in area in their car parking structure. Commuters enter a gate which locks so bikes do not need to be locked but some may still lock them. Lots of hangars for bikes. But, I was most impressed that Google provided lots of tubes, repair stand, air pump, patches, tools and employee volunteers willing to help out their fellow employees with wrenching support. At least up to their ability. Not sure % that rode but lots of bikes in the parking area.


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## Bazzer (12 Jul 2022)

Personally, I found it was a combination of personal motivation and facilities. 
In the late 90's I worked in a building where the bike storage was an afterthought to appease the city council. Access to it was horrible and my former school bike shed was better built. Consequently it was rarely used and when I used a bike to work, I preferred to keep it in my office.
The four buildings since then have all had better cycle facilities, all of which have shown a better take up of cycling and varying degrees of parking. My current one has a secure space for 120 bikes, 3 lockers of spares, shower and changing facilities and personal lockers for clothes, shoes etc. The further disincentive to car use, is there is no car parking. But the city does have good rail connections.


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## Hicky (12 Jul 2022)

The provision of tools/pump station is great IF maintained. We have them at work, they’re all knackered. It instantly makes you think the employer is doing a tick box exercise and doesn’t really give a hoot(despite huge online self promoting waffle of non reality).


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## Phaeton (12 Jul 2022)

I'm not sure that you can incentivise people to do this, or for that matter whether you should or not, I feel that all you can do is remove the barriers which may stop them doing it. 

I work from home & only for my own health benefit do I sometimes ride to work (I open laptop, do urgent stuff, then go for a ride), but I do it when I want & would not like to think I was being pressured into doing it.

Does the boss ride to work or does he still turn up in his gas gussler, or very expensive EV? I think he & the senior management have to lead by example, the facilities need to be put in place & then the management need to start using them, those that can & want to wwill follow their lead, those that don't want to won't & those that can't because of personal reasons my suggest things that they would like to do instead.


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## harlechjoe (12 Jul 2022)

I agree with other replies.

Some people may be put off from cycling because they are not as fit, slim, fast or strong as other people and don't want to be shown-up. Quiet and supportive conversations that encourage and overcomes barriers often wins hearts and minds.
Others may lack confidence to cycle on the roads who may gain self-confidence from cycle-craft guidance or informal coaching.
To create cycling culture have you considered setting up a a cycling club with different branches for men and women so those with an interest in recreational cycling, touring, Mtb, or road cycling.
How can you help those with impairments - e.g. funding adaptive cycles
All the best !


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## cougie uk (12 Jul 2022)

I'd send a quick survey round to ask what's stopping people cycling now. 
And maybe buy some cakes for people responding.


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## newts (12 Jul 2022)

It's very difficult/nigh on impossible to promote cycling to work & offer personal gain without out upsetting those who can't/won't benefit from the offer. The company could offer to make a donation to a charity (decided by the workers) for every mile cycled to work collectively over a given period.


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## matticus (12 Jul 2022)

newts said:


> It's very difficult/nigh on impossible to promote cycling to work & offer personal gain without out upsetting those who can't/won't benefit from the offer.



I guess that's the flipside to having free parking and the like. Not everyone CAN drive, and some choose not to.


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## cougie uk (12 Jul 2022)

In my office there were people who didn't want to use the stairs because it was effort. I think a lot of people's only exercise is to the car and from the car to the office. I don't think winning them round would be easy.


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## DRM (12 Jul 2022)

newts said:


> It's very difficult/nigh on impossible to promote cycling to work & offer personal gain without out upsetting those who can't/won't benefit from the offer. The company could offer to make a donation to a charity (decided by the workers) for every mile cycled to work collectively over a given period.



I think this is a fantastic idea, nobody is getting a benefit that their colleagues can’t, everyone is involved in deciding on a beneficiary, perhaps sticking with local good causes would be good for everyone’s morale.


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## Brooks (12 Jul 2022)

PK99 said:


> Where does the partially disabled Muslim fit in?
> Or the female employee nervous about lone cycling in the dark in the winter?
> #IndirectDiscrimination
> 
> ...



So all car parks means indirect Discrimination??? Your world is strange. I'd charge to use the car park, no free parking. How's that OK.


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## PK99 (12 Jul 2022)

Brooks said:


> So all car parks means indirect Discrimination??? Your world is strange. I'd charge to use the car park, no free parking. How's that OK.



Typical internet failure to engage with the substantive point:
: If you give a benefit to workers it must be equally available across all groups/characteristics. If any group with a protected characteristic is excluded the scheme is illegal. And not just the existing workforce.


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## currystomper (12 Jul 2022)

We have just had a GoJoe month (it's an app) with teams competing for points; seemed to work quite well, You can ride walk run do yoga etc and you get various points per km or minutes. Maybe a good way to kick start some good habits. Not sure I would want to do it all the time. Ps our group came middle of the road: 4th

Also I run a company group on Strava which has got a couple of folk out and starting doing some exercise.


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## cougie uk (12 Jul 2022)

We used to do the Global Corporate Challenge. I think it was about 6 weeks long and everyone in a team got pedometers and you could compete in your company or department or against the world etc. 

If you did other activities like cycling then that translated into so many steps per mile. It was great for getting people out together but I don't think it converted anyone to exercise who wasn't already doing it. 

It got quite competitive but the winners were a global team of people working on massively long 'cling film' machines and they all hiked mountains all weekend. Amazing.


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## FishFright (12 Jul 2022)

Pay them for doing it. Money motivates.


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## rivers (13 Jul 2022)

I work in a university that is trying to increase the amount of people cycling to work. We have loads of bike parking (although I store my bikes in the workshop of my building), several buildings have showers, cyclists have access to a drying/laundry room, a few times a year doctor bike is booked to come to campus for servicing, and we have an excellent C2W scheme (green commute initiative). We also have some electric pool bikes that staff can book out to try or get between sites if needed.


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## si_c (13 Jul 2022)

I think the best way is to first look at things which prevent uptake of cycling to work. Secure bike storage is a must, the places which do this best in my experience provide a covered bike shed with a lockable entrance. All staff members can get a key (sometimes with a small deposit, sometimes not) allowing them access and the bikes are covered and protected from the elements.

Providing showers is great, but unless you have somewhere to change and store clothes this is less than ideal and most people won't bother, and this has to be of good quality and in sufficient quantity that everyone can get to work on time and get changed/shower if needed without long queues forming. I've worked in a place where there was a shower in the disabled toilet, but there were about 8 of us who cycled in, all starting around the same time and inevitable someone decided to use the disabled toilet to have a sh!t at that time so there would be a queue at least once or twice a week.

The bonus of providing infrastructure like this is that it can serve more than one purpose, it can allow you to encourage people to take a longer lunch and go for a run or to the gym and freshen up when they get back. 

In terms of incentives, there are a number of things you can do, be wary as mentioned of indirect discrimination, but you could for example partner with a local bike shop and offer free servicing once every six months / year if you cycle in at least once a week. I think financial incentives could work, but you could encourage people other ways as well, reduce the amount of parking in the office so there isn't quite enough for everyone, and plant a garden where some of it used to be for example. 

You could also add in some competitions around health and wellbeing, with points for cycling into work as part of the participation - there could well be a financial incentive there overall, most points / most improved wins a voucher kind of thing.


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## Mike_P (13 Jul 2022)

My work place has a secure cycle shed but access is via the coding strip in the ID card so I think everyone at work has access to it. Suppose it should be possible to limit access by appropriate coding.


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## fossyant (13 Jul 2022)

We don't have anywhere to dry clothes, despite the number of staff we have. I shove my kit on top of an electric radiator.


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## harlechjoe (13 Jul 2022)

si_c said:


> I think the best way is to first look at things which prevent uptake of cycling to work. Secure bike storage is a must, the places which do this best in my experience provide a covered bike shed with a lockable entrance. All staff members can get a key (sometimes with a small deposit, sometimes not) allowing them access and the bikes are covered and protected from the elements.
> 
> Providing showers is great, but unless you have somewhere to change and store clothes this is less than ideal and most people won't bother, and this has to be of good quality and in sufficient quantity that everyone can get to work on time and get changed/shower if needed without long queues forming. I've worked in a place where there was a shower in the disabled toilet, but there were about 8 of us who cycled in, all starting around the same time and inevitable someone decided to use the disabled toilet to have a sh!t at that time so there would be a queue at least once or twice a week.
> 
> ...



You are quite right and here is a good example: a few years ago I cycled along the length of the Rhine and passed through Ludwigshafen that is dominated by the huge BASF factory. I took this photo of their bicycle shed which illustrates (a) where a cycling culture exists the infrastructure supports cycling. Without an infrastructure the reasons for not cycling are greater than the reason to cycle.


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## cougie uk (13 Jul 2022)

For the last 30 odd years I lived a mile away from work. 
I'd either walk 1m, bike 2m or run in 3.5m. 
I must have saved thousands by not needing a car for work. 

Really didn't enjoy the days of having to do a long drive to work - no fun at all compared with my preferred transport.


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## Ming the Merciless (13 Jul 2022)

If it was more widely realised that all the workers are within 30 minutes door to door cycling home to work, it might open a few eyes. For an old work place I did a tube style map showing the timings from the main places within 10 miles along routes you’d be happy cycling. Put them up on the bicycle notice boards I’d arranged near several key entrances.


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## wiggydiggy (13 Jul 2022)

Cycle to work was my biggest incentive, that plus realising I'd be paying £60p/m to sit on a crappy bus for an hour every day.

Facilities I've always just learnt to deal with. Best ones are at my current employer though I think showers and lockers are stil in short supply - some parts of the business fund their areas better than others but that's always going to be an issue until individual departments agree to have a centrally funded approach (not likely this century!).


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## annedonnelly (13 Jul 2022)

There's been a lot of talk about showers and changing but I think it's important to reassure people that special cycling clothes aren't necessary. The OP mentions journeys of less than 5 miles. Obviously it depends on the dress code in the workplace but I think for journeys of that sort of length there's no reason why people can't ride in comfortable casual clothing. 

When I was commuting to the station - 5 miles each way - that's what I would do. Maybe an extra jumper for sitting in the office (our office is cold!) and I tended to keep a change of shoes at work so I didn't have to wear trainers all day.

I think the more that people think they need to faff about the more they're likley to be put off.


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## alecstilleyedye (14 Jul 2022)

Sharky said:


> Ensure there are sufficient showers, bike storage, drying areas, lockers available.
> 
> Work on the management first. If they start cycling, the workers will follow.
> 
> ...



and make the showering and changing part of working hours


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## matticus (14 Jul 2022)

alecstilleyedye said:


> and make the showering and changing part of working hours



Foam rollering?

Putting your ride on Strava?

Brewing your recovery drink?


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## FishFright (14 Jul 2022)

Try poverty. 90% of the people I meet riding into work do it because its cheap.


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## Smokin Joe (14 Jul 2022)

alecstilleyedye said:


> and make the showering and changing part of working hours



If I was paying someone to do a job I'd say bollocks to that.


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## gavgav (14 Jul 2022)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> It was the boss who considered the cheating. I was just going to go on trust. We know how far each commute is, if they turn up on a bike I'd consider it done.



What an appalling sounding boss, if they don’t trust the staff enough for something as excellent as this idea 🤷‍♂️


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## Phaeton (15 Jul 2022)

gavgav said:


> What an appalling sounding boss, if they don’t trust the staff enough for something as excellent as this idea 🤷‍♂️



LOL, he's a realist, his world does not include fairies & unicorns


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## DRM (15 Jul 2022)

alecstilleyedye said:


> and make the showering and changing part of working hours



Not a chance, when I worked inside on the spanners we had to get washed off after finishing, and ready at your bench before start of play in the morning, glad I’m out and about now


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## Smokin Joe (15 Jul 2022)

gavgav said:


> What an appalling sounding boss, if they don’t trust the staff enough for something as excellent as this idea 🤷‍♂️



More likely a realist who's learned through bitter experience that people take the piss.


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## gavgav (15 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> LOL, he's a realist, his world does not include fairies & unicorns



Well I must work in a more trusting place than you do then.


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## gavgav (15 Jul 2022)

Smokin Joe said:


> More likely a realist who's learned through bitter experience that people take the piss.



Not where I work, sad state of affairs if that’s the case


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## Phaeton (15 Jul 2022)

gavgav said:


> Well I must work in a more trusting place than you do then.





gavgav said:


> Not where I work, sad state of affairs if that’s the case



I inferred in a previous post somebody was naive to think it wouldn't happen, they took great pleasure in being offended by the remark so I'll not say it again, but unfortunately it seems to be human nature for a lot of people. 

Some people would be appalled at the thought of theft from work, but it happens all the time, browsing the internet, ordering goods on line, checking Fleecebay, checking Faecesbook, going in 5 minutes late, slightly longer lunch, slipping away early on a Friday, calling at the supermarket whilst out on a job, all these are theft of time from the employer. 

I reckon I could 100% guarantee that in both of your places of work it happens, it's you don't class it as theft.


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## currystomper (15 Jul 2022)

If you don't want to get to work sweaty then an electric bike is the thing, so incentive to get one may be a way to help.


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## gavgav (15 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I inferred in a previous post somebody was naive to think it wouldn't happen, they took great pleasure in being offended by the remark so I'll not say it again, but unfortunately it seems to be human nature for a lot of people.
> 
> Some people would be appalled at the thought of theft from work, but it happens all the time, browsing the internet, ordering goods on line, checking Fleecebay, checking Faecesbook, going in 5 minutes late, slightly longer lunch, slipping away early on a Friday, calling at the supermarket whilst out on a job, all these are theft of time from the employer.
> 
> I reckon I could 100% guarantee that in both of your places of work it happens, it's you don't class it as theft.



Oh I can assure you I have much thicker skin than to get offended by comments on a forum from strangers. I just ignore those that try.


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## Joey Shabadoo (21 Jul 2022)

Thanks everyone for your views. We're concerned about the discrimination angle and also that we have a number of field sales staff for whom this scheme would be meaningless. So we're going to concentrate on improving the facilities and accessibility - for now.


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## Chislenko (21 Jul 2022)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> Thanks everyone for your views. We're concerned about the discrimination angle and also that we have a number of *field sales staff* for whom this scheme would be meaningless. So we're going to concentrate on improving the facilities and accessibility - for now.



Reminds of the old TV sketch Traveling in Ladies Underwear but can't recall who it was.


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## pbkclements (30 Jul 2022)

Get a few good pictures up in office showing cycling scenes or benefits.
Engage with a lunctime session &talk through the plan, get a bit of cameraderee going
Ditch the time off incentive, boss already wants to police it &it’ll be devisive
Talk about cost savings benefit & hope your area is well covered with safe cycling Routes

Best of luck, shaking people out of daily routine never easy


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## fossyant (30 Jul 2022)

We've got an app that can link to strava to earn points. My typical commute earns about 200 points, plus any strava walks or other rides. Only had the app a couple of months, and I'm over 5,000 points - a coffee is 1,500 points. I'm saving up for a decent golf umbrella, that's 15,000 points - shouldn't take long.


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## vickster (30 Jul 2022)

fossyant said:


> We've got an app that can link to strava to earn points. My typical commute earns about 200 points, plus any strava walks or other rides. Only had the app a couple of months, and I'm over 5,000 points - a coffee is 1,500 points. I'm saving up for a decent golf umbrella, that's 15,000 points - shouldn't take long.



Who funds the goodies? You work in the public sector iirc? Does other spending get deprioritised or funded another way?


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## fossyant (30 Jul 2022)

vickster said:


> Who funds the goodies? You work in the public sector iirc? Does other spending get deprioritised or funded another way?



It's an initiative to get everyone more active - but it's funded by the tuition fees, which funds everything we do.


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## David708ST (30 Jul 2022)

> I've been given the task of encouraging people at my work to cycle instead of using the car to commute.


As the task is centred on the need for your employer to reduce emissions through an effective travel plan, to help measure year on year success there is the nationally accredited scheme, Modeshift stars scheme that you should look into adopting. This provides a range of tools to assist. There is also the DfT note LTN 1/20 on guidance for cycling provisions. Ultimately, as it is about reducing emissions, these can be quantified using Defra’s emission factors toolkit (EFT) based on the distances accrued by vehicle type and furthermore analysed based a published environmental / health damage cost estimates. Many businesses are doing this, but lack skills in quantifying / publicising the benefits. To me it is crazy why we have laws in U.K. to require businesses to publish food hygiene ratings, and yet comparisons of business travel are seen as voluntary.


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## Wooger (8 Aug 2022)

Cathryn said:


> I listened to an interview recently with Isla Rowntree and she pays people £2 per journey, ie £4/day or £20/week. It didn't address how people might cheat - that's so sad you have to consider that.


Not even enough to cover even a short public transport commute, let alone a train journey. A laughably low amount for anyone with a decent job.

The solution is to make parking a car expensive, limited and a hassle. At present due to free / subsidised parking, cheap petrol, zero public transport investment outside London for ~70 years & offensive price gouging on what does exist - car drivers are effectively being subsidised and saving money over everyone else while taking the most harmful and selfish transport there is.

It's between 4 & 8 quid to park all day near my workplace in the centre of a city (far too much parking available), while the train alone is gonna cost 20 quid a day for anyone living outside, and is subject to delays and less convenient - so they all drive. They should be paying 10x what anyone cycling or training it does just to park. We have a clean air zone charge, but again, at 10 a day it's less than many people's public transport commute, and in any case, doesn't apply to 99% of vehicles at present.


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## Wooger (8 Aug 2022)

Chislenko said:


> One possible problem to consider when offering rewards then this could discriminate against those who can't (disability / distance) cycle to work who then are not in a position to get these rewards.


DIstance is their own fault, and they only choose to live so far because of our cheap subsidised car use.


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## Wooger (8 Aug 2022)

Smokin Joe said:


> Riding a bike does not stop people from picking up illnesses like a cold or the occasional virus, by far the most common reason for absence. And everyone having to shower on arrival would knock a massive hole in the environmental stuff.
> 
> And why on earth would people need to shower after a five or six mile commute? It isn't a Grand Tour mountain stage.


I have to shower every day, why would I choose to do it before a hilly bike ride rather than after?
Also, in the UK for 2/3 of the year there's no way I'm wearing anything that's suitable for work on a bike - it'll be soaked.


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## Wooger (8 Aug 2022)

PK99 said:


> Typical internet failure to engage with the substantive point:
> : If you give a benefit to workers it must be equally available across all groups/characteristics. If any group with a protected characteristic is excluded the scheme is illegal. And not just the existing workforce.



Great, so no work trips to the pub due to that one guy...
The reality is that many places will deal with it by just not employing any of those problematic employees. Good work.



Phaeton said:


> Some people would be appalled at the thought of theft from work, but it happens all the time, browsing the internet, ordering goods on line, checking Fleecebay, checking Faecesbook, going in 5 minutes late, slightly longer lunch, slipping away early on a Friday, calling at the supermarket whilst out on a job, all these are theft of time from the employer.
> 
> I reckon I could 100% guarantee that in both of your places of work it happens, it's you don't class it as theft.



Are you kidding? We're recommended to take a 10 minute break every hour at a computer screen, but noone does. Skiving off a few minutes is literally nothing.


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## Phaeton (8 Aug 2022)

Wooger said:


> Are you kidding?


No, are you?


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## fossyant (8 Aug 2022)




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## newts (8 Aug 2022)

Wooger said:


> DIstance is their own fault, and they only choose to live so far because of our cheap subsidised car use.



People cant always pick & choose where they work especially low paid jobs. They wouldn't be able to afford to move either.


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## Phaeton (8 Aug 2022)

Wooger said:


> DIstance is their own fault, and they only choose to live so far because of our cheap subsidised car use.



I presume you are in a secure occupation where there has never been a need to find another employer, some form of Government paid position maybe?


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## rivers (8 Aug 2022)

Wooger said:


> DIstance is their own fault, and they only choose to live so far because of our cheap subsidised car use.



I live 20 miles from work. If we wanted to live in a nicer area than our old house, that's how far out we needed to buy. And the reason we moved was due to the area we lived in (2 of the neighbourhood children decided to rip the back of our shed off and nick two of my bikes, come back and try to nick my dive kit). Saying that, I only take the car one day/week (when I take the dog in), and bike-train-bike (and sometimes even just bike, like tonight) the rest of the week. It takes no longer than driving really.


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## Bazzer (9 Aug 2022)

Wooger said:


> DIstance is their own fault, and they only choose to live so far because of our cheap subsidised car use.


Some choose the distance the distance they do from work for a variety of reasons. Others may have little choice, be it economic, family responsibilities, schooling etc. Or their employer may create the distance for them. For example, my employer has closed a number of smaller offices. The closure of an office I moved out of some years before it was closed, left people with the choices of resignation, or commutes, (assuming they lived close to the former office), of 14 miles one way or 20 miles the other way. If they lived north or south of the office the distances would be longer.
Then there is the matter of a crap public transport infrastructure. At the time of moving into a property, there could have been adequate public transport links, which have now all but disappeared. Where I live used to be served on a 14 mile or so route, by two buses an hour. Usually you were kicking your heels for a while if you used the bus service for appointments, but was tolerable. That route is now down to an hourly service and the service starts later and finishes earlier than it used to.


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## Andy in Germany (9 Aug 2022)

Wooger said:


> DIstance is their own fault, and they only choose to live so far because of our cheap subsidised car use.



I think there's some truth in that. As others have pointed out, it isn't entirely black and white; on the other hand I think it's possibly less "impossible" than people like to imply.

My own experience, in a country where our land use and transportation is somewhat different, is that it does take some work and organisation to get myself in a position where I can regularly ride to work; it was possible, but not as easy as finding a house within an hours drive and then looking up the route on G**gle.

When I changed to my current employer I was faced with a 15km commute which was achievable because there was a decent cycle lane alongside the main road for much of that ride, in fact I rarely touched a road, much less a busy one. Today I've got a 10km ride, I'll be on roads a couple of times with a 30km/h limit (and one short section on a derestricted road because I'm lazy and confident in traffic and can't be bothered to take the slightly longer traffic free alternative).

The game changer is infrastructure, but I think there a significant number of people who "Can't live without a car" could really, but they don't think they can or don't want to.


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## Andy in Germany (9 Aug 2022)

PK99 said:


> Typical internet failure to engage with the substantive point:
> : If you give a benefit to workers it must be equally available across all groups/characteristics. If any group with a protected characteristic is excluded the scheme is illegal. And not just the existing workforce.



Surely it is available to all groups, but they have to pay the cost of providing a space? charge for secure cycle parking on the same basis and it'll still work out cheaper for cyclists. 

We have to remember that fairness isn't the same as equality. My clients with disabilities get all kinds of assistance which I don't have access to including free cinema tickets or extra assistance on trains; this isn't equal, but it's certainly fair because it helps them be part of the wider society.


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## cougie uk (9 Aug 2022)

Wooger said:


> I have to shower every day, why would I choose to do it before a hilly bike ride rather than after?
> Also, in the UK for 2/3 of the year there's no way I'm wearing anything that's suitable for work on a bike - it'll be soaked.




WHERE are you to get that much rain ? 
I rode to work for a few years. It was very rare to get wet. Couple of days a month maybe ?


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## wiggydiggy (9 Aug 2022)

Wooger said:


> Not even enough to cover even a short public transport commute, let alone a train journey. A laughably low amount for anyone with a decent job.
> 
> The solution is to make parking a car expensive, limited and a hassle. At present due to free / subsidised parking, cheap petrol, zero public transport investment outside London for ~70 years & offensive price gouging on what does exist - car drivers are effectively being subsidised and saving money over everyone else while taking the most harmful and selfish transport there is.
> 
> It's between 4 & 8 quid to park all day near my workplace in the centre of a city (far too much parking available), while the train alone is gonna cost 20 quid a day for anyone living outside, and is subject to delays and less convenient - so they all drive. They should be paying 10x what anyone cycling or training it does just to park. We have a clean air zone charge, but again, at 10 a day it's less than many people's public transport commute, and in any case, doesn't apply to 99% of vehicles at present.



For my car I calculated my "cost per journey" (includes tax, petrol, insurance, depreciation etc - not just parking) and it was around £20. I averaged 2-3 times a week in the car pre-pandemic so that was enough to convince me my car is no longer a viable choice for regular commuting. Before it was confirmed I'm WFH on a full time basis (occasional days in, maybe once a month so far) I'd decided for a 5xday commute I was going to go electric bike.

My Cycle2Work scheme had recently increased the repayment term to 24mnths meaning a very good commuter bike for around £2.5k was affordable for me, after after approx 6 months of commuting the cost of per commute would be a fraction of what it is by car.

Thats the way to incentivise cycling to me, show people the true cost of commuting by car as I think they'd be surprised.


Andy in Germany said:


> Surely it is available to all groups, but they have to pay the cost of providing a space? charge for secure cycle parking on the same basis and it'll still work out cheaper for cyclists.
> 
> We have to remember that fairness isn't the same as equality. My clients with disabilities get all kinds of assistance which I don't have access to including free cinema tickets or extra assistance on trains; this isn't equal, but it's certainly fair because it helps them be part of the wider society.


Technically my work charges £10 one off fee for cycle parking, though it's actually a refundable deposit for a key


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## PK99 (9 Aug 2022)

wiggydiggy said:


> For my car I calculated my "cost per journey" (includes tax, petrol, insurance, depreciation etc - not just parking) and it was around £20.



That calculation is only valid for a dedicated commuting car.

If you would own a car independently of the commuting use, then only marginal commuting costs are relevant: Parking, Commuting Fuel, and Commuting proportion of service*/consumables. Standing charge elements eg Insurance, tax, MOT etc are not saved.

* Even service cost might be irrelevant if the interval is annual rather than mileage


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## Alex321 (9 Aug 2022)

cougie uk said:


> WHERE are you to get that much rain ?
> I rode to work for a few years. It was very rare to get wet. Couple of days a month maybe ?



This year has been unusually dry, but even so, in Wales I have been rained on in every month while cycling. More in the winter than the summer of course. And in the winter, even when it isn't raining, the roads are more often than not wet enough that spray will get you wet.


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## Alex321 (9 Aug 2022)

PK99 said:


> That calculation is only valid for a dedicated commuting car.
> 
> If you would own a car independently of the commuting use, then only marginal commuting costs are relevant: Parking, Commuting Fuel, and Commuting proportion of service*/consumables. Standing charge elements eg Insurance, tax, MOT etc are not saved.
> 
> * Even service cost might be irrelevant if the interval is annual rather than mileage



If he is calculating "cost per journey" based on all journeys, then it is perfectly valid. 

It wouldn't be if he is only calculating it based on commuting journeys and is dividing the "standing" charges just by those.


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## wiggydiggy (9 Aug 2022)

PK99 said:


> That calculation is only valid for a dedicated commuting car.
> 
> If you would own a car independently of the commuting use, then only marginal commuting costs are relevant: Parking, Commuting Fuel, and Commuting proportion of service/consumables. Standing charge elements eg Insurance, tax, MOT etc are not saved.



Well reminded and I know Some people might not do it that way.

I used a few different calculators and averaged it as they all work a little differently but some already factor that in, if not I factored that in manually e.g. I calculated my commuting fuel use only, only used the additional insurance charge when I selected 'commuting' as a use for the car.

I did use some other standing charges elements, but as a % of the total. So if I commuted 1000 miles, and my annual mileage was 3000, I'd say it's fair to add 25% of the standing charges to the cost per journey.

Even if I'm out by 100% and the cost was only £10 per journey that's still too high for me now.


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## cougie uk (9 Aug 2022)

Alex321 said:


> This year has been unusually dry, but even so, in Wales I have been rained on in every month while cycling. More in the winter than the summer of course. And in the winter, even when it isn't raining, the roads are more often than not wet enough that spray will get you wet.



I can see Wales from my house so my weather can't be hugely different. 
Did get soaked one July ride but mudguards make a lot of sense. Especially on a commuting bike.


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## Alex321 (9 Aug 2022)

cougie uk said:


> I can see Wales from my house so my weather can't be hugely different.
> Did get soaked one July ride but mudguards make a lot of sense. Especially on a commuting bike.



Yes, I always keep the mudguards on.

I got rained on heavily on the way to work a fortnight ago. Last week was dry, I only went in one day last week, and will be again this week, as I have Friday off.


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## wiggydiggy (9 Aug 2022)

cougie uk said:


> I can see Wales from my house so my weather can't be hugely different.
> Did get soaked one July ride but mudguards make a lot of sense. Especially on a commuting bike.



Mudguards always! Its not just rain for me - theres all sorts of random crap on the sides of a road (and various animal droppings!) I might accidently go through and want protecting from.


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## si_c (9 Aug 2022)

wiggydiggy said:


> Mudguards always! Its not just rain for me - theres all sorts of random crap on the sides of a road (and various animal droppings!) I might accidently go through and want protecting from.



Too true, when I used to commute to the office I rode with a few guys from the LBS who took the same route as me, they didn't use mudguards. One section of the route involved passing through a bit of marshland with a cycleway across it that doubled as a sheep sanctuary. Any time it rained the path became slick with sheep shoot and I always made sure I rode on front for that bit, one of the other two invariably had a faceful. Not pleasant.


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## cougie uk (9 Aug 2022)

si_c said:


> Too true, when I used to commute to the office I rode with a few guys from the LBS who took the same route as me, they didn't use mudguards. One section of the route involved passing through a bit of marshland with a cycleway across it that doubled as a sheep sanctuary. Any time it rained the path became slick with sheep shoot and I always made sure I rode on front for that bit, one of the other two invariably had a faceful. Not pleasant.



Burton Marsh ? Yes that can be awful sometimes but a pretty nice commute.


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## si_c (9 Aug 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Burton Marsh ? Yes that can be awful sometimes but a pretty nice commute.



Yeah, how did you guess 

It's pretty grim sometimes, not as grim as getting sheep poo out from between your teeth however. During summer it's really nice though, passed through there yesterday evening, lovely and warm and no midges.


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## Andy in Germany (9 Aug 2022)

I thought this video may be interesting. It is about the situation in Germany, although it is in English, and makes a good economic case for living car free without condemning people. One interesting point he does make is that contrary to claims made by the Daily Mail, is isn't cyclists who are "freeloading" but car drivers: we all subsidise car use.


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## matticus (15 Aug 2022)

If we keep avoiding progress because of a few outlier cases, the world is doomed.

MOST of the problem cases should be solved by other means:
- campaing for better/cheaper public transport
- pay the working classes (and carers, shift-based NHS etc etc) more
- tax the drivers to pay for above
- if an employer relocates you, THEY should pay for the associated costs!

Or we just let everyone keep driving whenever it suits them, never encouraging active travel, until the world burns or floods us out our homes ... :👍


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## Big T (15 Aug 2022)

The company I worked for prior to retirement moved from the suburbs to a city centre office. In the new office, there was limited parking on site and the office then fell within the boundary of the Nottingham Workplace Parking Levy, which is about £400 per parking place per year. It was a shared building, so of the 50 or so parking spaces we would have been entitled to about 15 parking spaces. We had a staff of about 120 based at the office. Rather than try and ration the parking between the staff, senior managers decided that there would be no staff parking on site, if you wanted to drive in to the office you would have to pay to park in one of the council run car parks, or use the park and ride. This really incentivised cycling within the office. Up to a quarter of the people regularly cycled in to the office. We had showers and secure parking in the undercroft of the building (where the car park is).

We, as a company, gave away our parking entitlement to the other organisations on site, but that also meant we didn’t have to pay the parking levy for them.


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## Andy in Germany (15 Aug 2022)

Big T said:


> The company I worked for prior to retirement moved from the suburbs to a city centre office. In the new office, there was limited parking on site and the office then fell within the boundary of the Nottingham Workplace Parking Levy, which is about £400 per parking place per year. It was a shared building, so of the 50 or so parking spaces we would have been entitled to about 15 parking spaces. We had a staff of about 120 based at the office. Rather than try and ration the parking between the staff, senior managers decided that there would be no staff parking on site, if you wanted to drive in to the office you would have to pay to park in one of the council run car parks, or use the park and ride. This really incentivised cycling within the office. Up to a quarter of the people regularly cycled in to the office. We had showers and secure parking in the undercroft of the building (where the car park is).
> 
> We, as a company, gave away our parking entitlement to the other organisations on site, but that also meant we didn’t have to pay the parking levy for them.



So charging the market value instead of subsidising parking spaces encourages cycling. This says a lot about what's happening generally.


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## DRM (15 Aug 2022)

Andy in Germany said:


> So charging the market value instead of subsidising parking spaces encourages cycling. This says a lot about what's happening generally.



Trouble is every body in Nottingham dumped their cars on side streets and did the last bit of the trip by bus, it was a nightmare at our daughters student let, and all the streets round there, a really well thought out plan, not.


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## PK99 (15 Aug 2022)

DRM said:


> Trouble is every body in Nottingham dumped their cars on side streets and did the last bit of the trip by bus, it was a nightmare at our daughters student let, and all the streets round there, a really well thought out plan, not.



The law of unintended consequences in action!


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## wiggydiggy (15 Aug 2022)

DRM said:


> Trouble is every body in Nottingham dumped their cars on side streets and did the last bit of the trip by bus, it was a nightmare at our daughters student let, and all the streets round there, a really well thought out plan, not.



Some of the streets near me are residents permit only during term time (schools nearby). Could the Nottingham streets just need something similar to dissuade the commuter driver from parking there?


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## PK99 (15 Aug 2022)

wiggydiggy said:


> Some of the streets near me are residents permit only during term time (schools nearby). Could the Nottingham streets just need something similar to dissuade the commuter driver from parking there?



Local streets here are "Residents Only" 10am-4pm Monday to Friday. No restrictions at other times.

A very effective way of keeping out commuters but allowing free movement of Locals


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## Andy in Germany (16 Aug 2022)

DRM said:


> Trouble is every body in Nottingham dumped their cars on side streets and did the last bit of the trip by bus, it was a nightmare at our daughters student let, and all the streets round there, a really well thought out plan, not.



This is a symptom, not a cause. The cause is still too many motor vehicles and a cultural idea that car users can store their property for free on a public space for some reason. it just moved so you need to deal with it there instead of rejecting the basic idea.

Looks like the solution is fairly simple:



PK99 said:


> Local streets here are "Residents Only" 10am-4pm Monday to Friday. No restrictions at other times.
> 
> A very effective way of keeping out commuters but allowing free movement of Locals


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## DRM (16 Aug 2022)

Andy in Germany said:


> This is a symptom, not a cause. The cause is still too many motor vehicles and a cultural idea that car users can store their property for free on a public space for some reason. it just moved so you need to deal with it there instead of rejecting the basic idea.
> 
> Looks like the solution is fairly simple:



That’s correct, but being an ill conceived plan, the council created more of a problem for other residential areas, than they cured in the name of improving the environment for everyone, I think that now public transport should be taken back under local authority control, get inexpensive fares on regular routes to where people work, at the times they need to be at work, it’s got to be worth a go, let commuters leave their cars at home, not someone else’s home


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## DRM (16 Aug 2022)

PK99 said:


> The law of unintended consequences in action!



Exactly, I reckon they were more interested in raising revenue, than protecting the environment


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## Gillstay (16 Aug 2022)

DRM said:


> Exactly, I reckon they were more interested in raising revenue, than protecting the environment



Doesn't that kind of comment rather undermine what they were trying to do and needs to be done.


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## DRM (16 Aug 2022)

Gillstay said:


> Doesn't that kind of comment rather undermine what they were trying to do and needs to be done.



No, because the whole plan was a shambles, the idea undermined itself without any help from me


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## Big T (24 Aug 2022)

The revenue raised from the Nottingham Parking Levy was and is used to build and extend the Nottingham Tram Network. So Yes the idea was to raise revenue, but the revenue was then spent on improving public transport.

The only problem with that is that the Tram network still only runs to certain areas of the city. It’s great if you live in Bulwell, Beeston, Basford, Clifton or Wilford. Not so great if you live in Bridgford, Arnold, Carlton.


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## DRM (24 Aug 2022)

Big T said:


> The revenue raised from the Nottingham Parking Levy was and is used to build and extend the Nottingham Tram Network. So Yes the idea was to raise revenue, but the revenue was then spent on improving public transport.
> 
> The only problem with that is that the Tram network still only runs to certain areas of the city. It’s great if you live in Bulwell, Beeston, Basford, Clifton or Wilford. Not so great if you live in Bridgford, Arnold, Carlton.



Exactly, my daughter was in digs in West Bridgford, it became a dumping ground for commuters cars, blocking streets, and even driveways, surely it’s better to get people who live well out of the city centre onto cheap buses, in order to get them into work, this was not what they envisaged when they came up with the scheme, mind you at least Nottingham has the tram system and it seems regular buses from all directions, unlike Leeds who have wasted more money on cockeyed schemes that never see the light of day, yet have cost the city millions


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## Big T (24 Aug 2022)

Yes, Nottingham has a pretty good bus network, even as far out as Bingham, where I live. It’s problems with traffic are partially caused by not having a Ring Road on the east side of the city, forcing traffic into the city centre to cross one of the bridges over the Trent.


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## Andy in Germany (24 Aug 2022)

Most of the above problems seem to be not regulating cars: if you allow car users a free for all in a city the centre soon becomes unlivable in the ways described, amongst others.


Conversely, taking space from cars and giving it to other forms of transport automatically improves quality of life for people. In the example above, others have already pointed out that making a residential area a "residents only" zone during work hours reduces congestion and parking issues.



Big T said:


> Yes, Nottingham has a pretty good bus network, even as far out as Bingham, where I live. It’s problems with traffic are partially caused by not having a Ring Road on the east side of the city, forcing traffic into the city centre to cross one of the bridges over the Trent.



You aren't really forcing traffic; no-one is forced to drove in a city. Closing the city to through traffic would reduce the problem, and encourage people to use alternatives across the urban area. Experience from cities around the world shows that the traffic flows adjust to the space available, and people use the easiest form of transport.

Of course this would also mean massively increasing the tram, bus and bike lanes across the city, and preferably regional trains as well.


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## Big T (24 Aug 2022)

Yes, but the problem is the River Trent. It can only be crossed via the 2 bridges in the city centre or the next bridge which is 10 miles to the east. What is needed is another bridge in between these. At the moment, the traffic must drive all the way into the centre to cross one of the bridges, then out again onto the southern link road that joins with the rest of the Ring Road.


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## Andy in Germany (25 Aug 2022)

Big T said:


> Yes, but the problem is the River Trent. It can only be crossed via the 2 bridges in the city centre or the next bridge which is 10 miles to the east. What is needed is another bridge in between these. At the moment, the traffic must drive all the way into the centre to cross one of the bridges, then out again onto the southern link road that joins with the rest of the Ring Road.



The problem is the volume of cars entering the city. If the city stopped all through traffic those bridges would no longer be congested. and other forms of transport, like bicycles would be more attractive.

It may sound counter intuitive, but this won't cause chaos. Induced Demand is a phenomenon that has been observed for several decades now; when a road route is closed, there is short term congestion but then road users find alternatives. Of course this means you have to provide alternatives, but cities have found the chaos predicted by the car lobby failed to materialise.

Conversely, building another bridge / road, which has been the solution in Europe and N. America for nearly a century now, just causes even more congestion within a surprisingly short period of time.


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## CXRAndy (25 Aug 2022)

PK99 said:


> Where does the partially disabled Muslim fit in?
> Or the female employee nervous about lone cycling in the dark in the winter?
> #IndirectDiscrimination
> 
> ...



Public transport 👍


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## CXRAndy (25 Aug 2022)

First deal with the majority to have a modal shift in use from car 



"Logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."

👍


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## Andy in Germany (25 Aug 2022)

PK99 said:


> Where does the partially disabled Muslim fit in?
> Or the female employee nervous about lone cycling in the dark in the winter?
> #IndirectDiscrimination
> 
> ...



A partially disabled person would clearly be exempt; in most countries that's a given.

A nervous female employee would probably benefit from looking at the actual numbers and likelihood of being attacked, which would have the side benefit of helping them live a more free and full life in other areas as well as commuting; men are the most likely targets of violent crime.

Naturally, this only applies to people with the wealth to afford a car; less wealthy people have always had to deal with this fear, and traffic, and poor infrastructure, which is surely a form of discrimination in itself.


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## Andy in Germany (25 Aug 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> First deal with the majority to have a modal shift in use from car
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ironically it's currently few that get infrastructure built for them, which the many then subsidise.


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## annedonnelly (25 Aug 2022)

I was going to post this in the Advocacy forum but it resonates with the discussion here. An article in the Big Issue about how the capital of Slovenia went car free. They seem to have managed to address all the issues that people were concerned about and now the vast majority of residents want to keep the scheme in place. Clearly they've managed to get the public transport and bike hire scheme working well.


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## Oldhippy (25 Aug 2022)

The Tokyo model, if you can't park it you can't get it.


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## Mike_P (25 Aug 2022)

annedonnelly said:


> I was going to post this in the Advocacy forum but it resonates with the discussion here. An article in the Big Issue about how the capital of Slovenia went car free.


Nottingham in the 1970s had a scheme to restrict cars from the centre which involved a park and ride network operated by 'Lilac Leopard' coaches which was only partly implemented before being abandoned 
https://trid.trb.org/view/69046
The coaches quickly getting the nickname Pink Elephants.


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## Andy in Germany (25 Aug 2022)

Mike_P said:


> Nottingham in the 1970s had a scheme to restrict cars from the centre which involved a park and ride network operated by 'Lilac Leopard' coaches* which was only partly implemented *before being abandoned



I think that may be part of the problem. It's something I noticed a number of times in the UK: Take an idea, implement it half heartedly, and then announce it didn't work and abandon it.

If they'd built motorways like that we'd be using much more public transport...


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## Sharky (25 Aug 2022)

Before they built the M25, I used to see jobs in Croydon, which is about 25 miles away. Always discounted them as I thought the commute would be too much. 

Roll on a few years and the M25 now built and following a recundency, I went for and got a job just south of Croydon in Whyteleafe, thinking that the M25 would make a good commute. 

In reality, the M25 route was nearer to 30 miles each way and the traffic was unpredictable, often at a standstill in places. 

So I found a route going through the lanes and this was only 23 miles and time wise was a predictable 40 mins as opposed to anything between 30 to 60 mins. 

The 23 miles each way was even doable on the bike 2 or 3 times a week. 

So I'm glad they built the M25 as it took away the traffic from an enjoyable commute thru the lanes.


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## Wooger (6 Sep 2022)

Andy in Germany said:


> Ironically it's currently few that get infrastructure built for them, which the many then subsidise.


Indeed. We need to urgently look at the regional funding split and reverse it to match need.

The "levelling up" nonsense our current government is spouting is truly insulting if you simply consider the funding per head for the different regions, the differences there make public transport spending (outside London) and the levelling up fund itself look like crumbs.

Scotland - 120% of English average funding per head.
London - 112% of English average funding per head, + numerous separately funded transport megaprojects.
West Midlands - 90% of English average funding per head.

From a recent trip to Edinburgh I'd estimate that they spend more on maintaining granite paving slabs alone than the entire of Birmingham gets in total.


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## Andy in Germany (6 Sep 2022)

Wooger said:


> Indeed. We need to urgently look at the regional funding split and reverse it to match need.
> 
> The "levelling up" nonsense our current government is spouting is truly insulting if you simply consider the funding per head for the different regions, the differences there make public transport spending (outside London) and the levelling up fund itself look like crumbs.
> 
> ...



Don't forget that some of Scotland's tax take is spent "on their behalf" for those London megaprojects. 

I'm not sure how much control local governments have over taxation in the UK; here control is deliberately decentralised so the regions don't saubsidise the capital in the same way as the UK subsidises London. There's also a lot of autonomy for spending priorities; our problem is more the powerful motoring lobby who howl rather loudly if road space is given to anyone else.


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## gaijintendo (9 Sep 2022)

I keep getting ads for Tommy's Tax or something along those lines and it was saying you can claim tax back on clothes for work - does any financial folk know if clothes for commuting come under that?


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## Alex321 (9 Sep 2022)

gaijintendo said:


> I keep getting ads for Tommy's Tax or something along those lines and it was saying you can claim tax back on clothes for work - does any financial folk know if clothes for commuting come under that?



They don't.

No commuting costs can be claimed back unless you are working at a temporary location (must be for less than 2 years, and expected from the outset to be less than 2 years).

But even in the temporary location case, it is only costs DIRECTLY incurred for the commute, such as train tickets or car running costs that can be claimed. Clothes can't becaue it is considered you don't need special clothes just for commuting.

Even work clothes can only be claimed if they are uniforms or specifically required protective clothing.


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## vickster (9 Sep 2022)

gaijintendo said:


> I keep getting ads for Tommy's Tax or something along those lines and it was saying you can claim tax back on clothes for work - does any financial folk know if clothes for commuting come under that?



Just work uniforms I think.
Check the HMRC website


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## Andy in Germany (10 Sep 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Even work clothes can only be claimed if they are uniforms or specifically required protective clothing.



Isn't your employer required to provide those?


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## cyberknight (10 Sep 2022)

even though work provide your clothes you can claim tax rebate for laundering


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## Gillstay (10 Sep 2022)

Andy in Germany said:


> Isn't your employer required to provide those?



In theory yes but this being the UK many cheap skate employers force workers to buy it. Even chainsaw gear that may save their lives.


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## Alex321 (10 Sep 2022)

Andy in Germany said:


> Isn't your employer required to provide those?



PPE yes, uniforms no.


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## HLaB (10 Sep 2022)

Its probably been said somewhere in this thread but parking is a key factor AFAIC. At my old work shower/locker facilities were ok but car parking was limited and a lot of people walked or cycled despite the poor bike parking. At my current place the facilities probably couldn't be better and the bike parking is very secure but there's a lot of car parking on site so a lot of folk are just fair weather cyclists and the overall number of cyclists is less, even on a sunny and warm day. So in my opinion its not just about incentives its sticks (parking controls).


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