# Better leg braking?



## longers (18 Feb 2010)

I've only been riding fixed fifteen months and decided I prefer a back brake over winter and will probably leave it on all year round.

I wasn't much good at leg braking before and will practice a lot less now.

Is it important to be good at it and how do I get better at it if I need to? Thanks. 

Also posted on yacf.


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## longers (18 Feb 2010)

To save confusion - I'm happy using it at slow speeds just not any faster than that.


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## MacB (18 Feb 2010)

I'll be curious about this as well having never done it, when watching others employ heavy leg braking it's always looked rather uncomfortable.

Maybe if you like brakes and one gear you're more of a SS person than a fixed? Just a thought, it's certainly how I would see myself.


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## Rohloff_Brompton_Rider (18 Feb 2010)

i saw you fly down them steep hills and i was glad you had a brake, it looks mad. i can't imagine how anybody would manage to stop them sort of forces. if they can they must have knees of steel!!


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## ColinJ (18 Feb 2010)

MacB said:


> Maybe if you like brakes and one gear you're more of a SS person than a fixed? Just a thought, it's certainly how I would see myself.


I was watching longers climb some hills on his fixed-wheel bike on my forum ride last Saturday and we discussed the difference between fixed and singlespeed. 

I have a singlespeed bike and I find it hard to get up hills steeper than about 8% on it because of the dead-spots in the pedal stroke. Once I can get my weight down on a pedal I am okay but getting the pedals over the top at a really slow cadence is a killer. 

On his fixed-wheel bike going up such climbs longers was just pedalling slowly and the bike just kept on going. It was strange to watch but I know that if I'd tried it on singlespeed I'd have just ground to a halt.


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## colinr (18 Feb 2010)

I don't think you _have_ to leg brake just because you're riding fixed. At low speeds it's fine, but at 20+ it's just uncomfortable (for me) and I use the regular brakes to drop to a speed where I can control it with legs. I certainly don't skid stop (deliberately) - puncture resistant tyres are too expensive to tear through.


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## longers (18 Feb 2010)

I'm not into skidding* and ruining tyres, 
this how the riders with no brakes do it I guess  


*unless it's in work as that's smooth, painted and easy with the dust on the floor.


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## Rob3rt (19 Feb 2010)

I dont have brakes, (admittedly ive only been riding like 6 weeks on a fixed) and I do just fine slowing down by resisting the pedals upstroke with my legs so long as im not blasting up to max speed and then trying to stop between sets of lights.

Skid stops though, NO IDEA, I dont know how people do it, I cant do it, lol - im scared to even try.


Will be fitting a front brake when next pay packet arrives


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## GrasB (19 Feb 2010)

Skip stops are easy; lock your leg out at the bottom of the stroke & let the bike push you up via your back leg, just before your front leg gets straight yank up. As your weight will be almost totally off the rear wheel when the front leg locks out the rear wheel will lock up.


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## Rob3rt (19 Feb 2010)

Ive tried doing it at low speed and chickened out, lol


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## GrasB (19 Feb 2010)

I find it's actually easier at higher speed.


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## longers (19 Feb 2010)

Rob3rt said:


> Will be fitting a front brake when next pay packet arrives



I was thinking about how you got on with no brakes Robert when I asked the question. I doubt I'd have the nerve to ride like that - but I reckon it'd be quite interesting!


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## Christopher (19 Feb 2010)

I followed a bloke on a brakeless fixed down a long hill the other day. To slow down he was using a combination of leg braking and kicking out and temporarily locking the rear. All right for bleeding off speed but not for an emergency stop.

I can't just use leg braking on the fixed, have to use the brakes too. What I do is put my hands in the drops and let the pedals lift my bum off the seat. At slightly slower speeds I'll put hands on the tops and let the transmission lift my whole body i.e. I am pratically upright with the up-coming leg almost straight. I can get down up to 8% or so slopes without using the brakes at all.


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## MajorMantra (19 Feb 2010)

longers said:


> I was thinking about how you got on with no brakes Robert when I asked the question. I doubt I'd have the nerve to ride like that - but I reckon it'd be quite interesting!



Interesting, but no matter how good you are at skidding/skipping and resisting, you still can't stop as well as with a front brake. Not to mention the fact that it's against the law.

There's no way I could safely ride as fast as I like to sometimes without a brake.

Matthew


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## Rob3rt (19 Feb 2010)

longers said:


> I was thinking about how you got on with no brakes Robert when I asked the question. I doubt I'd have the nerve to ride like that - but I reckon it'd be quite interesting!



Its really not that bad, I felt quite vulnerable at 1st I admit. But after Id been riding about 10 miles, I'd started to anticipate things better already. Now its fine, I only want a brake for legalities(although it still wont be legal having only one breaking system based on an elightening post by someone a couple of days ago here), emergencies and incase there are traffic lights on a hill(because you probly already found out its much harder to stop on a hill )


If i just need to gradually stop or slow down, I just sit taller and more open and let the bike roll. If I need to stop quicker I just resist upward motion by appying weight to the rising pedal. If I really need to slow fast, I do the same but standing so more weight is on the pedal. I cant skid stop yet, will practice in a park onthe gras come summer.

Im fully aware its relativelly dangerous in the case of an incident, so I think its a bad idea, but I had more inclination to cycle than I did cash at the time so I made my choice. Will be fitting a brake in next 2 weeks. Its always good to have one, you dont have to use it, but its there incase you need it I guess. Plus if some tit cuts you up and you hit him/her, at least you cant be told you didnt have breaks so you are responsible, hah


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## trio25 (19 Feb 2010)

I'm the same longers, although you are probably better than I am at the moment. Slow speeds - ie less than 10mph - it does something. But higher I need the brakes. Was assuming I just wasn't strong enough or not riding fixed long enough!


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## ColinJ (19 Feb 2010)

My friend's late father used to ride fixed all the time in the Peak District. He used leg-braking for years and had no problems with it at all, until the day he did that is...! He lost control on a steep descent and ended up having a really bad crash into a dry stone wall. 

Definitely not for me..


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## swee'pea99 (22 Feb 2010)

I was nervy when I first went fixed about leg braking, and kind of had the idea that using brakes was an admission of defeat, but people hereabouts reassured me and since then I basically use the front brake, aided by a bit of leg braking. There's no way I'd ride without that front brake, and I've never got the hang of skidding - I just can't get the wheel to stop...it digs in and keeps turning. Only difference now is, it doesn't bother me.


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## MacB (22 Feb 2010)

swee said:


> Yeah, not sure about the skidding bit, I can understand it happening if you have to brake in an emergency. But for fun?, I'm too mean, I want tyres to last. I can remember doing skids when I was a child until I realised that new tyres came out of my pocket money I swear my Dad had a little grin on his face when the realisation dawned.


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## Ian H (22 Feb 2010)

I saw these two threads were consecutive: _Better leg braking_? and _Old chicken legs! _

Leg braking is just one of the ways of staying in control on fixed. Nothing to do with locking wheels and shredding tyres, but keeping to a pace on a descent or slowing before a junction. It's much easier on a sensible gear ratio, that is rather lower than the time-trial or track gears that some folk want to pedal. I have two brakes, by the way.


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## fossyant (22 Feb 2010)

I got bolloxed by the coach at the recent track session for leg braking once I'd come onto the Azure.


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## Ian H (22 Feb 2010)

fossyant said:


> I got bolloxed by the coach at the recent track session for leg braking once I'd come onto the Azure.



Erm...how are you supposed to stop? Unless he had an aesthetic objection to you bouncing up and down in the saddle.


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## totallyfixed (23 Feb 2010)

For those of you that know the road down into Newton Linford from Ratby, [Charnwood forest area] I was once going down there on my fixed and managed to brake from @30mph to a stop using only leg braking. I was feeling quite pleased with myself until one of those freewheeling behind me said I looked like an epeleptic kangaroo. I try to be a bit smoother these days, but no brakes, you must be joking or maybe you are from London where it's some kind of fashion thing.


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## fossyant (24 Feb 2010)

Ian H said:


> Erm...how are you supposed to stop? Unless he had an aesthetic objection to you bouncing up and down in the saddle.



I'd come in quite quick and was leg braking quickly - he didn't know I ride fixed every day.....there was a mix of us out there, he was concerned I'd pull a muscle


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## Rob3rt (25 Feb 2010)

Ive been making a few shorter runs the last week or so, and so legs not so taxed, felt a bit more confident cause felt stronger and tried to skid a few times, didnt pull it off(I am thinking my low gearing makes skidding pretty hard to pick up), but deffo moved up to a new level of controlling the bike, feel much more confident skipping it about, feel much more like im throwing the bike around than trying to control a runaway train, lol. Hopefully I'll manage to pull a skid by accident and accidently pick up being able to do it, or some time spent in the park on the grass might help  

Dont really need to skid, but I figure better you can control the bike and do stuff (even if you dont need to), the more you have at disposal should it be needed. Should be getting my brake fitted in next week or so though


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## MajorMantra (25 Feb 2010)

Rob3rt said:


> (I am thinking my low gearing makes skidding pretty hard to pick up)



Lower gearing makes skidding easier. Practice shifting your weight forward - it's not hard with your balls on the stem. 

Matthew


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## Rob3rt (25 Feb 2010)

MajorMantra said:


> Lower gearing makes skidding easier. Practice shifting your weight forward - it's not hard with your balls on the stem.
> 
> Matthew



Lower as in a harder gear to push? How does this make it easier to skid? I'd have thought it was harder to resist its motion much like its harder to push it.

Edit: Sorry if im missing the obvious here btw.


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## MajorMantra (25 Feb 2010)

Rob3rt said:


> Lower as in a harder gear to push? How does this make it easier to skid? I'd have thought it was harder to resist its motion much like its harder to push it.
> 
> Edit: Sorry if im missing the obvious here btw.



Ah, no. Conventionally, low gear means easier gear, high means harder. 

What gear are you running?

Matthew


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## Rob3rt (25 Feb 2010)

MajorMantra said:


> Ah, no. Conventionally, low gear means easier gear, high means harder.
> 
> What gear are you running?
> 
> Matthew



Ive always called low geared as in harder to push, sorry for the confusion.

Im running a 48 tooth chainring and a 15 tooth fixed at the back. So 48:15? Stated using the right convention?

Im buying some nicer wheels soon and getting the bike re-sprayed so might get a "lower"/easier gear put on that to see if it makes any difference.


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## MajorMantra (25 Feb 2010)

Rob3rt said:


> Ive always called low geared as in harder to push, sorry for the confusion.
> 
> Im running a 48 tooth chainring and a 15 tooth fixed at the back. So 48:15? Stated using the right convention?
> 
> Im buying some nicer wheels soon and getting the bike re-sprayed so might get a "lower"/easier gear put on that to see if it makes any difference.



That's about 79 gear inches which is on the high side for general riding, although not if you live somewhere fairly flat. I find about 70" works well in Edinburgh and 74" is ok though a touch high sometimes. Going to a smaller gear will definitely make leg braking and skidding easier.

Matthew


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## Rob3rt (25 Feb 2010)

MajorMantra said:


> That's about 79 gear inches which is on the high side for general riding, although not if you live somewhere fairly flat. I find about 70" works well in Edinburgh and 74" is ok though a touch high sometimes. Going to a smaller gear will definitely make leg braking and skidding easier.
> 
> Matthew



Thanks I live in manchester, so fairly flat and my gearing is fine for actually cycling, but if a lower gear will increase controllability etc im deffo open to trying it out, can always switch back. Also might help running on easier gear and picking up the skills then slowly go back up so I can transfer the skills.


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## fossyant (25 Feb 2010)

Rob3rt, get some brakes......really.


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## Ian H (25 Feb 2010)

fossyant said:


> I'd come in quite quick and was leg braking quickly - he didn't know I ride fixed every day.....there was a mix of us out there, he was concerned I'd pull a muscle



Though, if you were skid-stopping on the track, you'd deserve a bollocking.


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## Ian H (25 Feb 2010)

fossyant said:


> Rob3rt, get some brakes......really.



Yes - not because it's illegal, just because it's stupid.


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## fossyant (26 Feb 2010)

Ian H said:


> Though, if you were skid-stopping on the track, you'd deserve a bollocking.



Heh..heh...skid stopping I wish, can't do it on the road.


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## fossyant (26 Feb 2010)

Ian H said:


> Yes - not because it's illegal, just because it's stupid.



Darwin Awards......


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## Rob3rt (26 Feb 2010)

fossyant said:


> Rob3rt, get some brakes......really.



Im getting brakes, but there is nothing wrong with wanting to pick up other skills as well, as far as I see it, the more skils you have riding the bike the better, whether you use them or not, you have them incase there should be a need.


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## swee'pea99 (26 Feb 2010)

Absolutely. 

Also, 'brake', I'd say. Don't think you need a rear brake.


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## Rob3rt (1 Mar 2010)

[quote name='swee'pea99']Absolutely. 

Also, 'brake', I'd say. Don't think you need a rear brake.[/QUOTE]

Yeah apparently you need 2 independant braking systems for legality, not sure leg braking counts  but I am NOT running a rear break, front only. Call it stupid but I dont want break cables running along the frame ruining its soon to be (when its back from powder coat and its new wheels fitted) lovely clean simplistic appearence.


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## colinr (1 Mar 2010)

> Yeah apparently you need 2 independant braking systems for legality, not sure leg braking counts


It does count, you only need a front brake on fixed to comply with the law.


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## Rob3rt (1 Mar 2010)

colinr said:


> It does count, you only need a front brake on fixed to comply with the law.



Sweet, thanks for clarification.


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## fossyant (3 Mar 2010)

Rob3rt said:


> Sweet, thanks for clarification.



Have you got a brake yet ? (only thinking about your safety on Oxford Road..... students and busses are lethal.)


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## Rob3rt (3 Mar 2010)

fossyant said:


> Have you got a brake yet ? (only thinking about your safety on Oxford Road..... students and busses are lethal.)



Havent been out on the bike this week, in the process of stripping it down to send away for its powdercoat (it needs de-uglying) and been major busy with work. Its going to be away for 4 weeks, when its back im putting new wheels and a brake on it. GBH will be ordering in my wheels and hubs etc when I drop the bike off, talked to Mill House about it the other day, told me to pop down to discuss the hubs and spokes etc. Will discuss the brake when we discuss the rims (rear can be non-machined and front machined, now the law has been clarified)

Since looking at parts for making the Fuji less ugly (and more suited to taking a bashing on the streets), I think I've got the bug and am going to end up buying a Dolan Track Champion (or Pre-cursa) and speccing it myself as a fixed wheel time trial bike, for a hobby.

I'll be riding the Cannondale for the next month, which is fully equiped with brakes and gears, lol


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## fossyant (3 Mar 2010)

Ah, GBH have a good reputation. Think it was Mill House who came to the CC track meet up at the end of Jan.


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## Rob3rt (3 Mar 2010)

Yeah they seem like really nice guys, the bike should be transformed from ugly to looking pretty awesome once they are done with it. Black frame, chrome forks, and deep V or B43 rims on some nice track hubs. (Although probly not all in one go )


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## gbs (29 Mar 2010)

Frustruck said:


> I followed a bloke on a brakeless fixed down a long hill the other day. To slow down he was using a combination of leg braking and *kicking out and temporarily locking the rea*r. All right for bleeding off speed but not for an emergency stop.
> 
> .



Kicking out and locking? PLEASE explain


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## MrGrumpy (29 Mar 2010)

I just wonder if my leg braking is wrecking my back wheels, gone through two now with the lock ring stripping the threads due to the reverse action?


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## swee'pea99 (29 Mar 2010)

Gordon Bennet, you must have legs like tree trunks!


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## robin IX (2 Apr 2010)

Haven't read the lot, its seems to have gone off topic a little.

In response to the original post.
I have a front brake for legality and peace of mind (don't think I could skid stop quick enough in an emergency), however I tend to "skip" stop whereby I unweight the back wheel and kinda just plonk it back down again repeatedly which scrubs off speed quick enough for most situations.

I tend to spend more time looking for things to avoid when I ride fix.

Robin


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## Rob3rt (6 Apr 2010)

gbs said:


> Kicking out and locking? PLEASE explain



Shifting your weight forward, locking your legs on the backstroke stopping the back pedal rising up and locking the back wheel, hence skidding. Check fixie skid competitions on youtube.


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