# Is it time to start bombarding our MPs?



## jazzkat (20 Oct 2013)

Not literally, although I can think of a few that I would gladly! 

I was thinking more in terms of our beloved leader's recent comments about motorists having to deal with 'the pelaton'. If we all wrote to our MPs highlighting the danger faced by close passes and inconsiderate motorists, maybe pointing out the almost weekly reports of a rider death. While the politico's are 'in the zone' so to speak.

Does anyone know what/if anything, came of the lib dems discussion on presumption of liability discussed here
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cyclesafety/article3838021.ece


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## buggi (20 Oct 2013)

I missed that? What did he say? Yes i think we should all write in. If the onus was on drivers to prove they were not liable, there would be no need for all the money spent on cycle lanes.


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## downfader (20 Oct 2013)

There might be published minutes of the Libdem presumed liability discussion, best to email the parties HQ and ask. 

With regards emailing/letters to MPs, yes! The problem with change being so slow is indeed down to cyclists not having engaged when they should, also in the past we didnt have the full gamut of data at our personal fingertips to back up the people on the road.

If you want to campaign you have to target 3 or 4 key areas:
- Your own MP
- Your own council
- The Department for Transport Secretary
- The Prime Minister's Office/Leader of the opposition (yes, really)

Raise these points:
- You fully welcome Cameron/Miliband's recent comments with regards cycling, safety and a message to drivers
- But this could go further by raising specifics that can be taught to all road users via the media (minimum passing distances, visibility at night with lights, where a cyclist should be expected and not punished/hated for being in a road position)
- KSI's have increased but proper prosecutions have fallen, as have Police numbers
- The massive savings to the NHS with proper cycling promotion and funding
- The savings to ordinary families in fuel costs, reduced car insurance through lower mileage with cycling

- Failures of the justice system in recent cases. Eg HERE and HERE These are probably because of a) limited knowledge of cycling needs by jurors, magistrates and judges; b) unequal diversity in juries - eg how many of them actively cycle on the road?; and c) guidelines are not clear enough. This leads to increased risks to all as the careless and incompetent are still able to "share" the road with all other road users.

- a proper push towards Dutch and Netherlands style cycling infrastructure would attract many more cyclists and improve local air quality, reduce pollution and CO2 levels as well as lower noise pollution.


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## Archie_tect (20 Oct 2013)

Here's an exchange with the Peter McManus, the researcher for our local MP Guy Opperman:

Thank you for your email concerning the Cycling debate on 2nd September. As you may know, Guy managed to speak in the debate. A transcript of his speech is here:http://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2013-09-02b.66.0&s=speaker:24962#g103.1Guy blogged about the debate on 31st August:http://guyopperman.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/cycling-debate-is-on-monday-in-house-of.htmlTyne Tees also covered the topic here:http://www.itv.com/news/tyne-tees/u...-north-east-mp-joins-the-push-for-more-bikes/I hope you find these links interesting.
Kind regards,Peter

-----Original Message-----

Sent: 21 August 2013 10:05
To: OPPERMAN, Guy
Subject: Please attend the debate on cycling on the 2nd September
Dear Mr Opperman,
As a member of CTC, the national cycling charity, living in your constituency, may I urge you to attend the Commons debate on the parliamentary 'Get Britain Cycling' inquiry report?This is being held on the evening of Monday 2nd September, Parliament's first day back after the summer recess.The 'Get Britain Cycling' inquiry was conducted by the All Party Parliamentary Cycling Group (APPCG), which CTC supports along with other national cycling groups. In response, the Prime Minister has just launched plans for a 'Cycling Revolution', a commitment which CTC has strongly welcomed.Funding is now in place for 8 key cities and 4 national parks to start the process of getting Britain cycling, amounting to £10 per head annually for the populations of those areas. 
This is a hugely important step forward towards maximising cycling's enormous health, economic, environmental and other benefits.In addition, a cycling action plan is also promised for December. I therefore urge you to make the case for the actions needed to get the whole of Britain cycling - not just parts of it.Above all though, I hope you will back the APPCG's call for the funding needed to substantially boost cycle use towards the levels common among our European neighbours. Their recommended aim was to increase cycling from 2% of trips at present, to German levels (10% of trips) by 2025 and to Dutch levels (25% of trips) by 2050.This will in turn require serious funding commitments - CTC has long argued that sustained investment of at least £10 per head annually is needed to progress towards continental levels of cycle use. The Government's recent announcement provides this for 7.5 million people in the 8 cities, for two years. 
However London is already planning to spend around £12.50 per head annually over the next 10 years, while the Netherlands still spends around £24 per head after 40 years of sustained investment.
I hope you can confirm that you will be able to speak up for cycling on September 2nd. 
I look forward to hearing from you.


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## jazzkat (20 Oct 2013)

buggi said:


> I missed that? What did he say? Yes i think we should all write in. If the onus was on drivers to prove they were not liable, there would be no need for all the money spent on cycle lanes.


This is David Cameron's recent cycling commentary:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-surrey-24578165


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## jazzkat (20 Oct 2013)

Thanks for the pointers guys. I'm surprised that cyclists haven't got their act together a but more, maybe it's because cycling is, generally so normal - even kids do it!
I was a member of MAG http://www.mag-uk.org/en/index/a6296 for many years and regularly wrote to my MP. I have no idea how much good it did, but at least it felt like I was making a stand, even just making my MP earn my vote!


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## jazzkat (20 Oct 2013)

Here's what I've sent him.

Dear Mr Farron,

I am a keen cyclist and hugely enjoy cycling in the amazing countryside we are so lucky to have on our doorstep. What dismays me is that on an almost weekly basis there is reportage on various cycle internet forums about cyclists that have been knocked off their bikes by motorists, many, sadly losing their lives. Even in our relatively sparsely populated area I am regularly subjected to stupidly close passes and general aggressive driving by some motorists, some local, others visitors.

I was very pleased to hear the Prime Minister’s recent comments on motorists having to deal sensibly with cyclists using the roads but I believe there needs to be a much more proactive education of motorists with regard to vulnerable road users. Many vehicle drivers are not aware of what it feels like to be passed within inches of the end of your handle bars at 40+mph or are not aware that to avoid the ‘door zone’ of parked cars or pinch points at traffic islands means that cyclists often have to move to what is known as ‘primary position’ (basically moving to the centre of the lane to allow room to avoid a car door being opened or simply a defensive position to stop cars squeezing into a gap that would force the cyclist into too small a space) and that the cyclists are not being deliberately ‘difficult’ and holding them up on purpose. Many motorists have forgotten the highway codes advice on giving as much room as you would to overtake a car or that it is not only ‘legal’ for cyclists to ride two abreast but that a larger group of cyclists riding two abreast is actually much easier for a motorist to pass than one very long string of cyclists that may be several meters long.

Recent failures of the justice system to properly ‘punish’ errant motorists would be considered farcical if it wasn’t for the waste of life. Gary McCourt recently being given 300 hours of community service for killing a cyclist, despite having killed a cyclist previously or Dr Helen Measures’ appalling response that “I can’t help it if a cyclist falls over as I’m approaching them” after she hit a cyclist at 50mph by overtaking on a bend. These travesties of justice are probably due to lack of clear guidelines and a lack of experience about cycling from the jurors, magistrates and judges. There has been recent talk of the ‘presumption of liability’ that most other European countries have. Now I am sure that the ranting motorist will flail about, upset that some ‘red-light jumping, lycra-lout, that doesn’t pay road tax’ will be somehow become king of the road. If the system works properly as I understand it, then the motorist should find that they are no longer bullied by white van man or at the mercy of lorry drivers who just pull out because they are bigger! I suppose it depend on how you sell it.

With all the benefits that cycling bestows on its communities – lower costs to the NHS, better air quality, less noise, lower fuel costs, improved quality of life in old age, I can’t see how we can continue in the ridiculous impasse that we find ourselves in where people’s lives are being lost because someone can’t be bothered to wait for one minute. A quick Google shows that according to the “Reported Road Casualties in Great Britain: 2011 Annual Report” an RTA with a fatality costs on average £1,877,583, while even a serious accident costs £216,203. The saving of just one life would go a long way towards paying for most of the advertising and re-education of necessary parties (motoring and legal) to try to turn around the situation we find ourselves in. How can we afford to do nothing? I would hope that there is an appetite to drive forward the changes necessary to bring us in line with our continental neighbours. One only has to look to the change the Netherlands went through to see that it can be done if there is a political will.

I am a motorist myself. Due to the nature of my work I drive around 20,000 miles a year. I also enjoy motorcycling so I am well aware of the realities of all forms of road use.

I look forward to hearing your response.

Kind regards

I'll let you know what he says. Feel free to borrow/copy/plagarise/adapt anything from my letter to get you going if it helps, 
but do write to them - they work for us!!


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## dellzeqq (23 Oct 2013)

Dear Chuka

Nice suit. Pity about the politics.

As the proprietor of the biggest cycling club in London it falls to me to tell you that cycle lanes are a complete waste of space and money.

Yours

Simon
fnrttc.blogspot.com


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## downfader (23 Oct 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> Dear Chuka
> 
> Nice suit. Pity about the politics.
> 
> ...



Hmm define "cycle lane"..? The ones in Germany seem to have increased the National modal share up to 20%. The Dutch ones seem pretty successful too...


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## classic33 (24 Oct 2013)

I am aware that the Lib-Dems were looking, as a party, at getting the rules changed. This whilst Labour were in power. That "desire" for change seems to have evaporated over the last few years.
Might part of the reason lie with the fact that they have, since being formed, got the chance to feel what power feels like?
I know its no use bombarding either of the two local MPs, as they'd like nothing better than to see cyclists removed from the roads & placed anywhere else, so that they as road users don't have to bother about us as cyclists. One has openly voiced her opinion on where cyclists should be, over the years. But never to direct questions in the run up to elections, she chooses not to hear the question being asked, rather than stand accussed of not answering it.


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## jazzkat (28 Oct 2013)

classic33 said:


> I am aware that the Lib-Dems were looking, as a party, at getting the rules changed. This whilst Labour were in power. That "desire" for change seems to have evaporated over the last few years.
> Might part of the reason lie with the fact that they have, since being formed, got the chance to feel what power feels like?
> I know its no use bombarding either of the two local MPs, as they'd like nothing better than to see cyclists removed from the roads & placed anywhere else, so that they as road users don't have to bother about us as cyclists. One has openly voiced her opinion on where cyclists should be, over the years. But never to direct questions in the run up to elections, she chooses not to hear the question being asked, rather than stand accused of not answering it.



This is part of my thinking really. Cycling while maybe not as mainstream as driving has thousands of people taking part in it. If we were all more active in making our public servants aware of how we felt we _might _be able to start to change attitudes. By doing nothing we are silently complicit, surely?
It's too easy to just think, oh it's ok someone else will write, the ctc (or someone else) will be my voice. I really believe that if we all took our politicians to task more often we might actually see some change. I am generally surprised that there is not a more proactive political attitude within cycling. 
Maybe I'm just being naive.


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## classic33 (28 Oct 2013)

The problem being that in the run up to any election, those elected to act on our behalf & represent our interests have very little interest in actually doing anything other than making it seem as though their listening to us.
Come the day after the election, how many of those that were in your face only the day before, will still be there wanting to know what you think? Experience has shown very few, even those elected to represent us.
The last time I asked either of the two local MP's their views on cycling, both in their own way said that we(cyclists) should not be allowed on the road. We're not insured, we pay no "Road Tax". And we cause too many problems to those who legally use the road system.
Pointed the same out to John Prescott, when he was Deputy Prime Minister, and the answer was ignored by him. He was on his tour of the region to find out what the problems were at the grass roots level & what those on the street had to put up with. H


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## snorri (28 Oct 2013)

jazzkat said:


> I am generally surprised that there is not a more proactive political attitude within cycling.
> Maybe I'm just being naive.


I think perhaps you are being a little naive. There are so many disciplines within "cycling", how could we (cyclists) possibly find agreement regarding what to ask our politicians for?


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## Spinney (28 Oct 2013)

snorri said:


> I think perhaps you are being a little naive. There are so many disciplines within "cycling", how could we (cyclists) possibly find agreement regarding what to ask our politicians for?


Even if we cannot agree on things like cycle lanes - how about the presumed liability? That, surely, would help everyone?


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## snorri (28 Oct 2013)

Spinney said:


> Even if we cannot agree on things like cycle lanes - how about the presumed liability? That, surely, would help everyone?


 It's being debated at Holyrood tomorrow following the submission of a public petition with the requisite number of signatures.


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## Spinney (28 Oct 2013)

Hopefully if Scotland introduce it, England may follow suit. 
If not, I might just have to emigrate, if the Scots will have me!


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## downfader (28 Oct 2013)

snorri said:


> I think perhaps you are being a little naive. There are so many disciplines within "cycling", how could we (cyclists) possibly find agreement regarding what to ask our politicians for?


I dont think its quite as split as you'd think. I've seen many old vehicular cyclists like myself get converted to the Dutch standards. I also think most cyclists (you'd have to be pretty dim not to) want to see better driving standards and the really bad removed from the road.


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## classic33 (28 Oct 2013)

Started elsewhere, but what about a Cyclists Party?


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## Archie_tect (28 Oct 2013)

snorri said:


> It's being debated at Holyrood tomorrow following the submission of a public petition with the requisite number of signatures.


I signed it.... not sure if I should have since I'm not resident!


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## Archie_tect (28 Oct 2013)

classic33 said:


> Started elsewhere, but what about a Cyclists Party?


Brave...


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## classic33 (28 Oct 2013)

Archie_tect said:


> Brave...


Are you brave enough? We have the founder of the Austrailian Cyclists Party keeping an eye on the thread.


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## snorri (28 Oct 2013)

downfader said:


> I dont think its quite as split as you'd think..


You could well be right.


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## dellzeqq (29 Oct 2013)

to take this thread a little more seriously......few political buttons work as well as the car. Some MPs (a small minority) see the car as overbearing, but, for most it's a fact, not to be messed with. I was persuaded by Ken Livingstone back in 1969 that the car is a pox upon the world, and, since then, whatever the bike, (Holdsworth, Dawes hybrid, Colnago(s), 1953 BSA, Kirk or Brompton), I've been a political cyclist in that I see the cycle as a counterpoint to and an improvement on the car.

If you've been across to 'Informal Rides' you'll see that cycling is a shining light in my life. It supplies a lot of the poetry. It's brought me friendship on a grand scale. It keeps my waistline in check. All this is good, but there's better to come. Forty years ago I could have cycled the thirteen miles to Epsom or seven miles to Marylebone and seen, perhaps, two or three other cyclists. Now.......they're beyond counting. Lately I've taken to standing on street corners and just marvelling at the sheer number of people, of all levels of fitness and none, riding bikes of every description and some that defy description. My heart soars like a dove.

But.............is there some great purpose being served, something more politically meaningful than my state of mind? Kindasortamaybe. What's apparent is that mass cycling is not the big answer to sustainable transport. It costs us very little (most of the time http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/dumbass-lcc-bike-lane-on-stratford-high-street.142505/ ) but the numbers do not look so brilliant when you compare it with the bus. There's a rich and unfortunate irony here - in dense cities where cycling works the best, it's not the best answer. Where cycling works least well, it's a small answer to a question that is both vast and just plain wrong.

The real battle is elsewhere. It's in the way we build towns and roads. The UK is cursed by suburbia, that is, increasingly, turning to exurbia. Now, I like suburbia. I like the front gardens, I like the fake history (sorry @Archie_tect ), I like the teashops and the sheer absence of a guiding intelligence (or any kind of intelligence). But suburbia/exurbia is choking what was once the countryside and turning our cities in to commuter hell. We, that is to say almost all of us, want our little patch of green but that wanting is going to do us in. And a large part of that doing in will be the ever-increasing reliance on the car for patterns of movement that the bus and the train are never going to be able to serve.

So..........by all means start a Cyclists Party. I'll join - I love a good party. But don't kid yourselves it's the answer. The answer, the revivifying and intensifying of our cities is so far off the panorama of our political horizons that, if I steel myself to think about it, I despair. It's true that this year I've been drawing just over 500 flats to be built next to big public transport (and 240 of those just down the road from where I live) but that's a drop in the ocean when hundreds of towns like Yarm, Sittingbourne and Worthing are being girdled by acres and acres of car-dependent semi-Ds. As a country we are petrol junkies, and our politics continues to fuel the habit. You are all noble souls, pedalling virtuously, but, sadly, pedalling against the grain rather than toward a new dawn and a brighter day.


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## jazzkat (29 Oct 2013)

@dellzeqq, I really enjoyed your post and I believe you are quite right, however campaigning doesn't have to be about cycling at the detriment to other forms of sustainable transport. I think you are right that the car isn't going to go away and to be honest I'd be totally knackered if it did, living and working in a rural community means I am reliant on a motor vehicle.
The sorts of things I am thinking of, is trying to end the poor attitude to cyclists by other road users and the poor attitude to cyclists by planners and road builders (I am sure there are other points).
Somebody further up the thread said that the politicians stopped considering us once in place, that may be true, but I would have thought any politician in it for the long term would want to be re-elected. Would you vote for someone _again_ after being ignored the first time?


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## byegad (29 Oct 2013)

I'm all in favour of bombarding parliament. Can I borrow HMS Belfast for the job?


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## dellzeqq (29 Oct 2013)

jazzkat said:


> @dellzeqq, I really enjoyed your post and I believe you are quite right, however campaigning doesn't have to be about cycling at the detriment to other forms of sustainable transport. I think you are right that the car isn't going to go away and to be honest I'd be totally knackered if it did, living and working in a rural community means I am reliant on a motor vehicle.
> The sorts of things I am thinking of, is trying to end the poor attitude to cyclists by other road users and the poor attitude to cyclists by planners and road builders (I am sure there are other points).
> Somebody further up the thread said that the politicians stopped considering us once in place, that may be true, but I would have thought any politician in it for the long term would want to be re-elected. Would you vote for someone _again_ after being ignored the first time?


absolutely. It's when cycling is touted as a miracle cure to all of society's ills (with a price tag attached) that I get shirty

in all honesty - legislation on liability aside I reckon a lot of the respect thing is only fixable at ground level. It's a question of knowing when to protest and when to spread the love


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## downfader (29 Oct 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> absolutely. It's when cycling is touted as a miracle cure to all of society's ills (with a price tag attached) that I get shirty
> 
> in all honesty - legislation on liability aside I reckon a lot of the respect thing is only fixable at ground level. It's a question of knowing when to protest and when to spread the love


10 years ago cycling wasnt even considered, now its being flagged and discussed in the media and political arena, Dell. This is because people have pushed, and the more that do push the better it can get.

As I said with helmet cameras - there is an opportunity - social media is allowing us to share information, educate ourselves and spread the knowledge. Because of this we are on a far better stance with regards campaigning. We now have the tools, to scale it back would be a mistake, and to over-estimate the power and the influence of the motor is also a mistake.

I don't know if peak oil will impact, but peak car certainly is. My own city as an example shows that we cannot get anymore cars in. The roads jam up twice a day for nearly 4-5 hours. Then they have to find somewhere to park. Southampton is the most obese city in the south. I'm not saying the bike is a panacea - but its certainly leverage.


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## classic33 (29 Oct 2013)

Anyone willing to put their own name forward?
http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/australian-cyclists-party.142257/
Starting at a local level & work from there.


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## jazzkat (4 Nov 2013)

Well, I've had a reply.
Sounds like a positive outcome to me.


> Thank you very much for your recent email with regard to cyclists’ safety.
> 
> 
> Your email is timely in that I have just had the pleasure of lending my support to a campaign by the Cyclists’ Defence Fund calling for stronger enforcement of traffic law and better investigations of crashes.
> ...


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## clockman (4 Nov 2013)

Is it only me, but I really do not think there is the political will to do anything about this. Every time PM Dave does a re-shuffle, the transport minister changes. This means that everything goes back to the beginning.
Unfortunately, the internal combustion engine is GOD. That particular lobby has everyone else by the short hairs.
I fully understand that my apathy and inactivity, is part of the problem. As cyclists, we don't have the financial clout (at the present time) to force changes and until we do we will have to take what little we are offered.


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## jazzkat (4 Nov 2013)

clockman said:


> I fully understand that my apathy and inactivity, is part of the problem.


I think the fact that cycling is a relatively normal activity is also its undoing. If no one kicks up a fuss then we continue to drop down the priority list. 
I have a good deal of respect for my MP, in that he does seem keen to get out and about and fight for local causes. Respect that he got on a bike and went for a ride with someone on that particular stretch of road. I bet he crapped himself, its not a great road to cycle on and quite narrow in places. If we all complain it raises our profile if we do nowt, we've got no one else to blame but ourselves for the lack of change in some of the attitudes we experience.


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## jazzkat (4 Nov 2013)

classic33 said:


> Anyone willing to put their own name forward?
> http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/australian-cyclists-party.142257/
> Starting at a local level & work from there.


I've thought about this a bit. Surely cycling should be seen as a mainstream thing rather than a niche activity. By becoming a 'cycling party' it's too niche in my eyes and will be seen by most as just 'some nutters playing at politics' and I think you'd need a lot of mainstream votes to have any chance of a result. 
In my opinion the mainstream political parties should all have some cycling as a serious part of their transport policy, wishful thinking maybe.

These last few years we've had a bit of a 'perfect storm' - Wiggins/Froome, Cavendish, The Olympics, British track squad and thousands of people taking to two wheels. It's a shame that we've not been able to capitalise on this in a positive way amongst the non riders in society.


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## clockman (4 Nov 2013)

I do agree with you jazzkat. My apathy is my problem and I have to get off my bum and start doing not just moaning.
I'm glad you respect you MP and I have to say I respect that he gets out and sees problems first had. We need more like that. Those that know how they got there and who they represent.
I, however, have nothing but contempt for my MP. He is just resting on the fact that he's in a very safe seat, so doesn't have to do a great deal to retain his seat.


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## classic33 (4 Nov 2013)

Well at present the car is king on Britains roads, with the same excuses being offerred/given every time.
Most MP's would not want to upset who they see as the people who may have the final say in their fate come the next election. Election time, even at local level next May. You will have promises made to you, in order to try & get your vote. Do you not feel that when the same people fail to deliver on those promises, they are not there for you?


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## classic33 (4 Nov 2013)

clockman said:


> Is it only me, but I really do not think there is the political will to do anything about this. Every time PM Dave does a re-shuffle, the transport minister changes. This means that everything goes back to the beginning.
> Unfortunately, the internal combustion engine is GOD. That particular lobby has everyone else by the short hairs.
> I fully understand that my apathy and inactivity, is part of the problem. As cyclists, we don't have the financial clout (at the present time) to force changes and until we do we will have to take what little we are offered.


 We have the clout, the problem is we tend not to use it. The pencil in the Polling Station, on election day is a mighty weapon.


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## classic33 (4 Nov 2013)

@jazzkat, @clockman
How about standing next year in the local elections? I promise you, you'll have your MP's full attention come the General Election, even if they're not willing to admit to you!


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## redhanded (5 Nov 2013)

Is it not the case that a lot of MPs will be pro or anti something depending on what is most politically expedient for them?

So for my local MP, she appears to be *against *a new residential development as it will generate more traffic and make congestion worse, but *for *relaxation of parking controls in local shopping areas (which will generate more traffic and make congestion worse...) 

In both cases she is pandering to the local NIMBYs who don't want lots more people in the area but do want to drive their cars where ever they like...


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## downfader (5 Nov 2013)

redhanded said:


> Is it not the case that a lot of MPs will be pro or anti something depending on what is most politically expedient for them?
> 
> So for my local MP, she appears to be *against *a new residential development as it will generate more traffic and make congestion worse, but *for *relaxation of parking controls in local shopping areas (which will generate more traffic and make congestion worse...)
> 
> In both cases she is pandering to the local NIMBYs who don't want lots more people in the area but do want to drive their cars where ever they like...


That is indeed the case. Such clashes of ideals have been raised quite effectively in the local papers down here. I strongly feel its why my own MP lost about 4000 of his usual votes (barely scraped in) and the local rival Tory didnt get as many as he'd wished.


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## clockman (5 Nov 2013)

classic33 said:


> @jazzkat, @clockman
> How about standing next year in the local elections? I promise you, you'll have your MP's full attention come the General Election, even if they're not willing to admit to you!


I really do not think my MP would give me the time of day. He couldn't give a damn. His majority is far too big for him to be worried. I certainly do not intend to become a member of the Torys or Lib Dems, to sit in a council chamber in my evenings after work. I want to be cycling. I have enough trouble getting out now that the nights are closing in!
Having a Father who is Tory Local Councillor, I know what his opinion of his Tory MP is. Not flattering! He tries to avoid using the MP when canvassing. So an independent, running in the local elections in my area would have no chance. I have better things to do, at this time.
I don't rule out having a go in the future, but at the moment, family and work have to come first. With cycling, for the spare moments I do have.


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## jazzkat (5 Nov 2013)

redhanded said:


> Is it not the case that a lot of MPs will be pro or anti something depending on what is most politically expedient for them?
> 
> So for my local MP, she appears to be *against *a new residential development as it will generate more traffic and make congestion worse, but *for *relaxation of parking controls in local shopping areas (which will generate more traffic and make congestion worse...)
> 
> In both cases she is pandering to the local NIMBYs who don't want lots more people in the area but do want to drive their cars where ever they like...


Absolutely, if it was us cyclists making more noise would that not 'sway' their impression that something needed doing. 
I can't imagine the average man in the street writing to rave on about all the cyclists on the road and if they did it could potentially fuel _our_ fire. 

@classic33 Whilst in principle I'm not against standing, time pressures aside, I just don't see what it would achieve. I appreciate that big things grow from small, but it just seems like dabbling at the edges while I think we need more mainstream action that can only come from central government.


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## classic33 (5 Nov 2013)

jazzkat said:


> Absolutely, if it was us cyclists making more noise would that not 'sway' their impression that something needed doing.
> I can't imagine the average man in the street writing to rave on about all the cyclists on the road and if they did it could potentially fuel _our_ fire.
> 
> @classic33 Whilst in principle I'm not against standing, time pressures aside, I just don't see what it would achieve. I appreciate that big things grow from small, but it just seems like dabbling at the edges while I think we need more mainstream action that can only come from central government.


 But as has been shown, mainstream action, for cyclists, is not what the main parties are bothered about, aside for the time they want you to cross the box alongside their name.
Think of it as a protest vote, one that will be noticed the following year at the General Election.


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## Bad Company (6 Nov 2013)

Spinney said:


> Even if we cannot agree on things like cycle lanes - how about the presumed liability? That, surely, would help everyone?



Really? How many motorist voters & how many cyclists!

Presumed liability is immoral anyway IMO. Fault needs to be established case by case.


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## jazzkat (8 Nov 2013)

Bad Company said:


> Presumed liability is immoral anyway IMO. Fault needs to be established case by case.


It's hardly immoral when you consider that the larger vehicle/professional driver_ should_ be acting with the more vulnerable road users interests in mind. Not charging past cyclists within inches of the end of their handlebars, white van man tailgating the 70mph car in the outside lane, the artic driver that pulls out in front of the car overtaking in the middle lane so he can go 1mph faster than the artic he's been following for the last 10 miles, the cyclist charging down the pavement, scattering pedestrians (yes, it cuts all ways) and lets not talk about the morals of mobile phone use while driving, drink/drug driving yada yada.
When a lorry or van hits a car there is a good chance that the occupants will walk away (speed dependant of course), if a motor vehicle hits a cyclist it's going to get messy regardless of the speed involved. 
I don't see the immorality.

I don't deny that fault needs to be established case by case, but I suspect with presumed liability there would be less cases in the first place as we might begin to respect each other on the road a bit more.


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## classic33 (8 Nov 2013)

What we have to overcome the problems all road users face, we already have. What is missing is the will of those elected to serve our interests, is to get those rules enforced when they are needed.


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## clockman (9 Nov 2013)

The will does not exist, period! If you ask any politician, they will spout platitudes, say 'I agree , yes blah dee blah, more needs to be done'. Then, like everything else, when the time comes, there is no money available to fund the policing of the rules. The minister, after advice from the civil service grandee, will point out to your politician, that cycling is not really all that important, in the grande scheme of things. But, it is the responsibility of the (already financially hard pressed) local authorities. Such is life.


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## jazzkat (9 Nov 2013)

I agree with both of you. 
It never ceases to amaze me how good the driving becomes when there is a police car about.
We aren't going to get loads more police on the roads any time soon.


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## clockman (9 Nov 2013)

jazzkat said:


> I agree with both of you.
> It never ceases to amaze me how good the driving becomes when there is a police car about.
> We aren't going to get loads more police on the roads any time soon.


That's caused by a guilty conscious. We are all suffer from that, I know I'm no different. However, it only works on the law abiding amongst us! Getting back to the original post about bombarding our MPs, as a breed, the majority of them don't have a conscience, let alone being law abiding. It is only the small minority that are in it for the people that elect them.
There will only be further reductions in in traffic police numbers. They are still being replaced with ' traffic wombles'. Mostly because of the cost!


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