# tadpole to quad conversion with outboard disc brakes ( now the quadem project )



## voyager (19 Oct 2015)

Hi Folks 
I know I have been quiet of late but due to caring commitments, a short but needed break at the end of September , a forthcoming MOT , several trike rides before the hour crawls back to winter time and the nights draw in , Together with a bit of a shortage of ERW form our steel suppliers and a few other little projects that have crept in .

So , Enters the MKII this trike has been used in the development of some of the other trikes and is a good basis for the conversion .

The facts so far 
The latest project is to convert the MKII from a tadpole 20/26 trike to a 20" all round quad/velo prototype using a solid rear axle mounted in pillow blocks and fitting outboard discs on both rear wheels .
Using a 20mm solid rear axle and a 20mm front hub as a "free hub " will make the rear end a little easier to construct using 20mm pillow blocks , I hope to include a rear damper on the rear and use the main boom as a torsion bar suspension .

Photos will follow as and when the camera releases them up to my one drive and I have finished hacking 40x40 16g ERW to build the frame - UNTIL then you are welcome to post comments ask questions or wait patiently in line and shoot me down in flames 

regards for now 

emma


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## classic33 (20 Oct 2015)

Only the one drive wheel on the rear then?


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## ufkacbln (20 Oct 2015)

Have a look at the Utah Trikes website - they have several quad conversions


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## voyager (20 Oct 2015)

This version will be single wheel drive - most of the RWD delta trikes are only SWD that do not use a diff , the original racing trikes of the 50's and 60's used a single wheel drive on the "near side" as it stopped "run down the camber " in normal road use 

The conversion a "bolt on rear end " is now past the planning stage and the pre assembly work is complete and the assembly work to cut to size and weld up has begun . The only fly in the ointmentas previously stated is forcing my mobile phone to return my photos to my one drive so I can post them .
Windows seems to have a mind of its own!

regards emma


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## voyager (20 Oct 2015)

Hi Folks 

I welded up the main frame less the suspension mount and did a mock up before I ran out of light today 











upload images free

regards emma


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## mickle (20 Oct 2015)

Are you incorporating any articulation? Is the whole rear end acting as a swingarm?


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## classic33 (20 Oct 2015)

mickle said:


> Are you incorporating any articulation? Is the whole rear end acting as a swingarm?


You thinking Brox!


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## voyager (20 Oct 2015)

The whole rear end will be sprung as a dampered unit this prototype unit will rely on the torsion bar effect of the main boom to absorb the bumps and irregularities of the road , the next quad might ( only might ) have a limited movement using a horizontal head tube assembly to give it some extra movement .
The idea is to mount the whole subframe directly to the trike in place of the MTB rear triangle currently fitted using the Pivot point and damper mount .

regards emma


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## mickle (20 Oct 2015)

classic33 said:


> You thinking Brox!



I dunno what I'm thinking. I do know that quads need articulation of some kind or else spend a lot of time with one wheel orf the ground.


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## classic33 (20 Oct 2015)

mickle said:


> I dunno what I'm thinking. I do know that quads need articulation of some kind or else spend a lot of time with one wheel orf the ground.


Possibly two on any tight turn, or turn at speed.


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## Scoosh (20 Oct 2015)

mickle said:


> I dunno what I'm thinking. I do know that quads need articulation of some kind or else spend a lot of time with one wheel orf the ground.


OT post.

Only 1 wheel ? Clearly not going fast enough !


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## voyager (20 Oct 2015)

here is a close up of the left and right hubs the fixed hub was a standard MTB hub with the bearings removed and reamed to fit the 20mm axle , it is mounted with a purpose made adapter that secures the hub via the rotor into the rotor mounts , a standard Kobe 20mm hub from a scrap front 20mm wheel is the offside Hub mounted with 20mm collars on both sides to act as spacers to get the calipers in the same position 
















free picture upload

its still in bare metal stage - have welder will travel , the trike spends most of its time on 2 wheels so wont be too different there 

i can always cut and shut the main rear boom and put a fork tube up it, unless i go for some thrust bearings .lets get it on 4 wheels and see how it goes ! there is plenty of space between the pivot and the subframe 

regards emma


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## voyager (22 Oct 2015)

Hi Folks 

Brake calipers and derailleur mounts designed and made today and currently waiting for the M12 x 70mm bolts to secure the Pillow blocks and m5x25 HT cap screws for the fixed hub adapter , I have located and machined up a black hub for the fixed hub so all the hubs are the same .

I hope to machine the anti crush tubes at the weekend .

Only leaving me to design the 1into 2 brake adapter for the rear ( 4 wheels and 4 OUTBOARD 160 mm disc brakes )

An extra pair of plates to support the M12 bolt heads were cut cleaned up and ready to drill .

Yesterday a recycled BMX style bike gave its rims ( same as the original pair ) , rim tapes and inner tubes for the project and its forks and head tube will be saved for another project .

The 4th tyre ( had 2 + 1 spare ) arrived today and the calipers and spokes are on their way , 
Hopefully I can built and trued the wheels early next week .

Next stage is to dismantle the current rear end and jig up the delta subframe in its correct position so I can weld in the suspension support .

regards emma


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## classic33 (24 Oct 2015)

Hydraulic brakes?
I"ve two seperate systems in use on the Brox. An inline system, front brakes & a parrallel system on the rear.

Cable operated: Have you considered a splitter as fitted to a BMX?


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## voyager (24 Oct 2015)

Cable brakes all round with a dual lever on the front and a centre pull system on the rear so it can revert to the trike configuration with minimal effort 

Have tried BMX splitters in the past and were not successful .

Easy weekend only the anti crush tubes to make , lucky really  I feel like a dog log,
I must have caught something during the week 

laters 

emma


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## voyager (29 Oct 2015)

Hi Folks 

Still feeling rather under the weather but in the cooler autumn air this morning I started to feel a bit better , triked along to get some antibiotics and had a couple of hours in the workshop and this rolled out of it about 12:20 , this afternoon I fitted a temporary chain but I will get some more ( 3 more ) chains to replace the original as it is too short with the change in chainwheels .










The wheelbase is EXACTLY the same as it was as a trike ( to keep the ackermann steering geometry correct ) and despite looking longer is actually 3 inches shorter than it was before the conversion .
When I feel better I will thrash it around the block 

regards emma


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## voyager (1 Nov 2015)

Replacement chain set sourced and resprayed 28-38-48 linked with the DNP 7 speed freewheel will give me 17" - 87" gears , now I only need the legs to use them . 

Next stage before the test ride is fit the lot - recheck the gears and then the wait is over ......................

who know maybe Monday or Tuesday ?

regards emma


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## voyager (1 Nov 2015)

23:30 and the chain set is fitted and the front mech set up - only leaves the chains ( ALL 3 OF THEM ) to join together , measure and fit . 

now its time for bed --- I must be mad ( comments please only on a £5 note and posted directly to me )

regards all

emma


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## classic33 (1 Nov 2015)

Managed to buy my chain off the reel, in one piece, as opposed to joining three chains.


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## voyager (1 Nov 2015)

@classic33 

have you got a link to a UK supplier ?

regards emma


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## classic33 (2 Nov 2015)

voyager said:


> @classic33
> 
> have you got a link to a UK supplier ?
> 
> regards emma


It was the first time they'd had a request for a 16 foot long bike chain. But they bought a reel of it, so the joins could be kept to a minimum.
http://bike-shed.com/


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## mickle (2 Nov 2015)

So... What's to stop it cooking a wheel, aside from frame flex?


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## voyager (2 Nov 2015)

*Frame flex is " Torsion bar suspension "* we just need to see how much flex we have ,


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## voyager (3 Nov 2015)

Chain etc fitted and the frame flex is only 20mm and a tad more with a rider the lack of flex is probably exaggerated by the central seating position 
but this seating position is exactly the same as the wheelbase on the original trike , 
With more weight than a 170 lb rider I think it would be okay and I am unable to check until I find a mug ( oops persion ) to stand on the rear whilst I ride it around the block .

So next stage is 

contemplating and fixing 

but 

TBH it rides very well except when the wheel is not in contact over undulating ground 









I wont be beaten 

regards emma


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## mickle (3 Nov 2015)

Is it one wheel drive?


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## voyager (3 Nov 2015)

That the problem when the drive wheel is not on the ground , other than that its fine , I have some Eastern Burnouts 20x 2.1 semi balloon tyres to fit they will run at 35psi , are low resistance and a larger profile and might help other than that I will build a new front to fit the modified back - after all it is a prototype and its all in the learning curve 

Alternatively a sprag clutch fitted into a modified free hub will give it a second wheel drive but stoll allow a free wheel action on corners 

regards emma


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## mickle (3 Nov 2015)

Or make it the ultimate Ltd Split Diff and run a solid axle like an old Nash!

Actually, I've got a trike rear end with a diff in it going spare...


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## voyager (3 Nov 2015)

mickle said:


> Or make it the ultimate Ltd Split Diff and run a solid axle like an old Nash!
> 
> Actually, I've got a trike rear end with a diff in it going spare...



@mickle . Thanks l could be interested in that please PM me a price and description 

Live back axle and no diff could make turns a little awkward with extended tyre wear  but it would stop the lack of traction moments 

regards emma


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## classic33 (4 Nov 2015)

Question with regards the axle placement. Why above the main frame, and does it place any extra stress on the axle?


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## voyager (4 Nov 2015)

@classic33 
@mickle 


*Mr Reaper *

John said it would be ok .. Placement was to keep the existing pivot point , and to ensure that the caster angle of the front head tubes remain at 75 degrees , 
this as said earlier was an experiment and prototype and somehow I did not expect a miracle and it work first time , it still is and was a great learning curve and worthy of a bit more playing before it gets passed by .( Complete redesign ).. Current thoughts are of course 2wd ,

Hopefully *Mickle * will come back to me with P & D or alternatively we will design a 2wd with sprag clutches fitted in the rear hubs . 

There are still many options open to me and I have been in contact with some of the BHPV guys on facebook for a little advice on weight loading etc , their solutions on bits are OK for a racing team ( that are in full time paid employment ) but a pensioner with time on her hands and a shoe string budget are prohibitive .

In the last few years ( retired now for just 3 years ) I have in addition to being a carer for mum learnt a lot about design , and welding and feel quite pleased with myself ( the e-trike family i have designed and built ) and a big big bonus point is my health has also improved with the exercise 

Maybe the idea of a SWB quad has its own "little opportunities " and either needs the chassis redesigning to allow a longer wheelbase rather than a long wheelbase with its characteristic handling problems and large turning circle 

regards emma


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## voyager (13 Nov 2015)

Well another week has passed and I am slowly getting over this viral infection and a flu like illness that appear to have run concurrently - anyway , a little more experimenting and I have removed the 16mm tube across the rear end , this has allowed a little more flex , waiting for the diff details ( @mickle ) now before I build a complete replacement rear end with a shorter moment and using thinner and smaller material to increase the flex .

no more photos yet as not much has changed , have ridden it around the block ( short block ) and it is better but the long rear end allows the wheel to spin when putting the power down .

regards emma


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## mickle (13 Nov 2015)

Im in Belfast now (so it is), but I'll dig out those axles when I'm back in the office. Soz for delay.


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## Drago (13 Nov 2015)

What's it like cornering with no rear diff?


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## voyager (13 Nov 2015)

swd means it is not too bad , its those awkward corners where the rigid chassis keeps the drive wheel off the ground is the worst case , going to redesign the chassis in the next few weeks to put the seat over the rear wheels.
That should cure it

regards Emma


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## mickle (18 Nov 2015)

Here's the good one, the sorry one will come back from storage next time someone goes. I'm not sure how much value the dead one has... £80 the pair inc postage?


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## mickle (18 Nov 2015)

ideally you'd want a transfer drive ...


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## mickle (18 Nov 2015)




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## voyager (18 Nov 2015)

@mickle yes please
I can make a multi-speed transfer drive up - no problem , PM me with details and I can paypal you 

regards emma


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## voyager (18 Nov 2015)

@mickle any hubs for the diffs ?

regards emma


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## simon.r (18 Nov 2015)

@voyager - It's highly unlikely I'll be able to contribute anything useful to this thread, but I just wanted to say how much I enjoy reading your account and seeing your photos. Looks like an excellent project. 

I hope I'll be doing something broadly similar if and when I can afford to take early retirement!


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## voyager (18 Nov 2015)

simon.r said:


> @voyager but I just wanted to say how much I enjoy reading your account and seeing your photos. Looks like an excellent project.
> 
> I hope I'll be doing something broadly similar if and when I can afford to take early retirement!



Any input is good news , it makes a change to the normal bike repairs , maintenance and the such likes , and I hope it helps to show others what can be done with a bit of time and a small workshop , And the bonus is - riding them helps keep my blood sugar down .

There are more threads - a few on the trikes including the 20/20 e-trikes and a couple on the marmil eating e-bmx and electric shopper .

The current project is stalled until the next batch of bits arrive and the new frame build with the seat over the rear axle. 

hope you all enjoy the read 

regards emma


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## raleighnut (18 Nov 2015)

mickle said:


>


That looks like the same back end as my Kentex trike but does it have a 'sprag drive' to each of the back wheels/hubs?


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## voyager (19 Nov 2015)

Just increased the head angles to 80 degrees to see if that will reduce the wheel lift problems ( longer damper ) and I have started a lighter weight rear end , *remember this is still a prototype *for a velo build and once the chassis is sorted the body can be built - O the advantage of being retired/ or is that just tired .
Having an easy week as I am still getting over that viral infection and the weather is just **** down here in the south .

regards emma


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## pegar (22 Nov 2015)

Thanks Emma
For inspiring me to get on with my project.
supposed to be finished before last summer and I'm still miles of.
I like to ask about the front wheel and breaking mentioned earlier. 
When I bought my front wheel I got bmx front wheel with 14mm axel
and decided to use old fashion clamp breaks.
I can't understand how you can use rear wheel with screw on adaptor for disc break.
Can't the disc on one side unscrew itself with heavy breaking even if you use glue? or are they welded on.


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## voyager (22 Nov 2015)

pegar said:


> Thanks Emma
> For inspiring me to get on with my project.
> 
> When I bought my front wheel I got bmx front wheel with 14mm axle
> ...



Large flange rear hubs can be used and the rotor bolts on the LH wheel can be drilled through the flange and secured with longer bolts and nuts 
the Rh wheel will tighten itself onto the hub .

Here is a thread I started on the Atomic Zombie site that details the various methods that can make a lower cost disc brake wheel set , I have used this method for a lot of trike builds without failure , in the thread are other peoples experiences as well .

http://forum.atomiczombie.com/showt...nt-Disc-hubs?highlight=how+I+used+disc+wheels

The transportable uses the bolt through method as there was a couple of scrap BMX bikes with LF hubs at the tip with identical rims = result 

The last set of wheels I got from the tip was a pair of 48 h quando 14mm hubs and the front was a disc hub and the rear a standard screw on hub 
result is a pair of heavy duty disc wheels for the tandem , I think Stue has been using the same method since we spoke earlier this year 

You can get lh and rh disc calipers 
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RIGHT-HAN...652543?hash=item54048dc43f:g:eTYAAOxyOMdS8occ

email Graham for more info on these and he has got screw on disc conversions and rotors 

regards emma


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## pegar (23 Nov 2015)

Thanks Emma
I hade looked at that link previously, It was only the way the odd side disc was secured I couldn't make out.
But like I said when I have started my project I choose front wheels and rim brakes.
My problem is that I'm designing the next bike ,and the next one, and the one after that, in my head before I have finished the one I'm working on.


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## voyager (10 Jan 2016)

Hi Folks 
Christmas and the new year has gone and past . Time now to start thinking of the next two projects , 

The first is to continue this project by stretching the rear boom 21" and installing a stoker , to hold the rear wheels on the ground and provide a bit more human power - this will become the quadem Quad -tandem 

and the second is the velo project using the rear PFAU Tec Diff unit from Mickle 
Status so far - diff here ,currently ( yesterday ) have source a pair of suitable 36 hole rims ,spokes and matching tyres from a good BMX donor ,
next stage to build a jack-shaft with disc brake and 7/8 speed 11-32t freewheel and 18t output sprocket .
. 
watch the forum for more news 

laters 

emma


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## markg0vbr (15 Jan 2016)

I like the back to back tandom layout if the seats are slightly offset you can peddle along chatting to the minion in the rear seat. 
This gives you a nice luggage storage section between the seats, Google back to back recumbent tandem.

the builders of delta motor trikes use a combination of active rear sub fraim holding the axle rigid and high wall tyres 
With very low pressure around 5psi.
Or some go for the torsion bar approach, the ends in rubber pivots to allow flexing, scaled down for your quad it should work.

It will be a real head turner when it's done.

The most important question ..... Will it be red and green when the body is on ?


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## voyager (15 Jan 2016)

The continuing project 

This is going to be a standard tandem format - as a prototype it is allowing me to gain the knowledge I need for the velo ( unless I give up ) currently I am nursing a rather bruised and blistered left foot that took the brunt of a flying Log splitter last weekend ....  . Everything has ground to a halt for the last 6 days .

The bits have arrived for the wheel build for the PFAU axle and the rims cut from the BMX bike and cleaned up , but until my mobility increases, they can all stay firmly on the bench . 
The workshop is too cold  and the temperature here down south is starting to fall and the cold is taking its toll on me , ( I am not as young as I was , and I don't heal as fast especially now I am diabetic )

Will it be red and green - No  its a quad , not a holly bush

I wll split the thread later and run the velo project as a separate thread 

regards emma


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## voyager (27 Jan 2016)

HI Folks 
I will split the two threads with this becoming the quadem ( quad tandem ) and the quad velo will have its own thread soon 
I am building the little bits before I cut and extend the rear end .






photo shows the stokers BB assembly , handlebar mount and the 2 box section inserts .


The rear end will have an extra 21" inserted and I have just finished cutting and welding up the internal support/ strengtheners for the cuts .
The adjustable rear sliding seat assemble is built , as well as the stokers bottom bracket and the 2nd freewheel adapter. The stokers independent chain drive will be down the left hand side and will be fitted with a 7 speed 11-32 setup , The stokers USS bars and stem are finished and painted . 
So , most of the bits are built except for the dual rear gear mech mount , sorry no photos as its too wet and dark but they will follow .
Just waiting for a set of 20x1.95 semi smooth tyres to clear customs and some m6 55mm bolts to arrive . 
I hope to make a start on the final cuts and reassembly soon.
My Toes are still sore but the bruising has started to disappear but the cold and damp weather is not doing this old bird much good . 
.A couple of hours in one day is too much until the weather gets a bit warmer .

regards emma


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## voyager (29 Jan 2016)

Hi Folks 
This morning the sun was shining  so after a quick cup of tea or two  it was outside for a couple of hours in the sun - I have cut and extended the main boom and only have the rear derailleurs to sort , then the rear axle needs sorting before reassembly and sort the chain lines .
The close clearances I made the hubs and spacers is giving me a little hassle in fitting the second freewheel assembly, Everything is too tight to dismantle. 
Total length is about 110 inches or 9 ft 2ins or for those that cannot convert its under 3 meters long .


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## voyager (2 Feb 2016)

Hi folks

Long day , almost finished the chain drives , rear brakes sorted and both drive trains "work" only a few hours work tomorrow should see it rideable and get some full photos in assuming the weather does not let me down.

JUST NEED TO RETIGHTEN EVERYTHING and make a second return tube support .

8x3 front gears ( 48/36/28 x 11-32 ) and 7 rear ( 42x 11-28 )

dual rear sprockets for independent drive



photo storage


regards emma


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## voyager (2 Feb 2016)

Hi folks 

after an hour of tinker time , a few adjustments and a 2nd chain return tube to stop the sagging of a 4 length chain the quadem took to the road today with just me on board , the frame flex is better but with the wet weather still under foot the rear drive wheel did spin a bit , still it rides and I only need the help of a volunteered stoker to put it through its paces 

and now the long awaited photos - pre paint as I am sure it will get a few more modifications soon . I hope to get it under the magic 9 foot once I remake the rear seat back , and to fit a difference set of stokers bars 

regards emma


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## voyager (8 Feb 2016)

Hi Folks 
With Imogen raging her wrath along the coast , I have a few jobs indoors to finish ( battery pack to make for the e-trike and the jackshaft of the velo project ) I have sorted the rear bars and new bar mount on the quadem and sprayed them black , pink bmx bars just didn't suit it .

When the storm blows itself out and I get a co-opted stoker its time for a long test ride.

Rather than USS these are "in front of the seat non steering "  they need to go like this to miss the chain run of the pilots transmission ( all 4 chains of it ) the quad uses a total of 8 chains so far it has 5 brake cables and 3 gear cables as well .
I have another pair of tyres for the front as 1.95 crackpots's will give a bit more flex than these 1.75 ones currently fitted on the front .

The next stage is the storage behind the rear seat and a front fairing once some miles are on it .

regards emma


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## voyager (9 Mar 2016)

Hi folks 

Having had the stuffing knocked out of me ( 10 days ago ) with a viral infection ( both praying to the white elephant and trying to ride it ) I am starting to feel a bit better, I have managed to cut down the the rear seat and retrimed it . The overall length is now 8ft 10" or 106 inches ( non imperial bodies 106 x 2.54 /100 = metres ) 

I have found a few problems in the drive line but I think they are all sorted , currently waiting for the warmer weather to appear so we can give it a good test run , only things to do is paint the rear end and change the front tyres to a pair of 1.95x20 rather than the current 1.75

more photos will follow - currently trying to do a little decorating so I don't need to do it when the weather finally breaks.

regards emma


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## Scoosh (9 Mar 2016)

Hope you continue on the mend - both personally and quadally !


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## voyager (25 Mar 2016)

Hi Folks 

its a sunny but cool good Friday in the northern hemisphere and after a good English breakfast Ken and I decided to take the quadem out for its two rider test ride 

about a 10 mile round trip into Brighton was our aim and it was achieved without a problem 

The 24 gears for the pilot is overkill and the 7 on the rear was ample . Ken and I took turns at the front and had a good first ride - 
The steering feels twitchier than a trike ( due to the steep caster angle of the head tubes but the ride was short , we did stop on the return leg , once to listen to a busker near the pier and at hove lawns for a cup of English tea at the cafe on the promenade .

now where can we park and store a 9ft long 3ft wide quadem project ?.........



......















free photo hosting


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## classic33 (26 Mar 2016)

voyager said:


> Hi Folks
> 
> its a sunny but cool good Friday in the northern hemisphere and after a good English breakfast Ken and I decided to take the quadem out for its two rider test ride
> 
> ...


Anywhere you like.

Try parking it with a nine foot trailer.


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## voyager (27 Mar 2016)

Now thats a thought a teardrop camper on the back of an e-assist tandem quad - now legal in the UK


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## voyager (27 Mar 2016)

Further to the lack of chassis twist as a single seater the additional 10st sitting above the rear wheels KEEP THE DRIVE ON THE GROUND 

The only disconcering thing both of us noticed was a little "bump steer " on speed bumps 


have a good easter 


emma


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## irw (24 Apr 2016)

voyager said:


> Now thats a thought a teardrop camper on the back of an *e-assist tandem quad - now legal in the UK *


@voyager 
Hi Emma,
What's your source for this please? I've always had a plan in my head to add e-assist onto my quad, but when I contacted the DfT 6 years ago when I built it for clarification on the rules, it wasn't allowed.

Ian


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## voyager (24 Apr 2016)

the rules for quads and the weight limit , together with throttle less pedelec systems came into force in July last year, there is a thread in this forum , Pedelecs forum and l believe on the atomic zombie on the changes , googling should find you the answers , no where near a pc for a couple of days , so cannot help any more but if you can't find it will search for it next week for you .
regards Emma


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## voyager (26 Apr 2016)

@irw 
this is just one source 

http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/electric-bike-guides/uk-electric-bike-law/

regards emma


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