# Giro d'Italia 2015 *spoilers*



## Pro Tour Punditry (29 Apr 2015)

Preliminary start list announced:
http://velonews.competitor.com/2015/04/news/preliminary-startlist-2015-giro-ditalia_368302

Official site:
http://www.gazzetta.it/Giroditalia/2015/en/


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## BrumJim (30 Apr 2015)

And no Brits or Irish that I can spot.


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## Hont (30 Apr 2015)

BrumJim said:


> And no Brits or Irish that I can spot.


That's quite disappointing. Sky feels less and less like a British team these days.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (30 Apr 2015)

Svien Tuft out of the Giro following his crash in yesterday's Romandie stage


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## themosquitoking (30 Apr 2015)

Quintanino is riding. Haven't seen him go yet.


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## beastie (1 May 2015)

Hont said:


> That's quite disappointing. Sky feels less and less like a British team these days.


Andy Fenn
Chris Froome
Geraint Thomas
Ian Stannard
Luke Rowe
Ben Swift
Lil Pete Kennuagh

And almost British
Nico Roche
Phillip Deignan

You could probably claim those riders from ex colonial nations if you really must.

The classics side is more British now, and there will be 3 or 4 at the tour in support of Froome. It's a lot more than when I watched Millar in the Eighties.


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## Hont (1 May 2015)

7 Brits out of 28 is the lowest number in the team's history.

You can't count former colonies, this is 2015 not 1915. And good luck going into a pub in Dublin and saying any Irishman is almost British.

But all that is besides the point. They're supposed to be a British team but no Brits are entered in the Giro. Even Astana have managed to get a Kazakh into their line-up and most of them are serving bans.


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## tug benson (5 May 2015)




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## Hont (5 May 2015)

Nice to see a bit of dumbing down for the masses who can't imagine how far 3,481 km is. 

Only Sky and Trek are not fielding a single rider from the country in which they're registered (fact courtesy of Daniel Freibe on Twitter).


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## Pro Tour Punditry (5 May 2015)

That's a strong looking team to support Porte, he's guaranteed to fall off early


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## Roscoe (6 May 2015)

Konig, Plan B for when Richie has his "off day" that he always seems to have at GT's.


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## smutchin (6 May 2015)

BrumJim said:


> And no Brits or Irish that I can spot.



There are more Africans than Brits riding in this Giro.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (6 May 2015)

smutchin said:


> There are more Africans than Brits riding in this Giro.



Stick a cricket bat in their hands and the job's a good 'un


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## Flying_Monkey (7 May 2015)

smutchin said:


> There are more Africans than Brits riding in this Giro.



As there should be, really, given that Africa is an entire continent with several nations that have strong cycling interest.


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## Flying_Monkey (7 May 2015)

Unless there is something I should know, I think the course and the time is right for wild boy, Rigoberto Uran Uran, this year. However, he hasn't always shown the killer instinct in GTs, so he needs to be hungry like the wolf this year.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (7 May 2015)

Flying_Monkey said:


> ...so he needs to be hungry like the wolf this year.



We can all save a prayer for him


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## Crackle (7 May 2015)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Unless there is something I should know, I think the course and the time is right for wild boy, Rigoberto Uran Uran, this year. However, he hasn't always shown the killer instinct in GTs, so he needs to be hungry like the wolf this year.





Marmion said:


> We can all save a prayer for him



Jeez.........


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## ayceejay (7 May 2015)

Crackle said:


> Jeez.........



That;s a pretty short prayer Crack do you think it will work?


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## Dave Davenport (7 May 2015)

Looking at the rest of the line up, Dirty Bertie's to lose I'd have thought.


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## beastie (7 May 2015)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Unless there is something I should know, I think the course and the time is right for wild boy, Rigoberto Uran Uran, this year. However, he hasn't always shown the killer instinct in GTs, so he needs to be *hungry like the wolf *this year.


I though you were better than that FM.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (7 May 2015)

8 of the stages to have "on board" video footage
http://velonews.competitor.com/2015...rtner-to-bring-onboard-cameras-to-giro_369145


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## Flying_Monkey (7 May 2015)

beastie said:


> I though you were better than that FM.



I am so enjoying this. I hope people read that post and wince. 

However, the serious part was that I am backing Uran. It wasn't just an excuse for the worst pop-culture punnery ever.


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## smutchin (7 May 2015)

I picked Uran in the predictor comp largely on the basis that he's the one of the main contenders I'd most like to win, but I genuinely rate his chances too.

Porte looks in great shape but you'd put your mortgage on him having a bad day in week 3...


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## Flying_Monkey (7 May 2015)

smutchin said:


> Porte looks in great shape but you'd put your mortgage on him having a bad day in week 3...



I do have a sneeky feeling that Konig will end up finishing higher than Porte.


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## beastie (7 May 2015)

Porte is on top form, and he should put time into every one bar Uran in the ITT. I would love either of those two to win, they are both nice guys. The problem with that is that Contador is obviously the class of the field and he can manufacture a win even if he is not the strongest. I hope it doesn't turn into a Contador cakewalk, especially if Porte stays in form for the whole 3 weeks. That would be best - a four way shoot out between Porte, Aru, Contador and Uran, With a win for Uran being my hope.


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## Keith Oates (8 May 2015)

I'd like to see Porte get the win but as has been said already any hiccup can prevent it happening.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Hont (8 May 2015)

beastie said:


> I hope it doesn't turn into a Contador cakewalk.


Ditto. Here's to a close race.

If it isn't, it should still be interesting to see how well the likes of Quintana and Betancur go.


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## Crackle (8 May 2015)

Hard to see past Contador really. Uran for a podium, Porte for a bad day, Aru for a bit of show and then a host of people with promise who hopefully can pull off a surprise or two.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (8 May 2015)

Extreme weather protocol to be tested during the Giro; here's hoping for some top quality air pollution 
http://www.uci.ch/pressreleases/ext...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer


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## themosquitoking (8 May 2015)

Hont said:


> Ditto. Here's to a close race.
> 
> If it isn't, it should still be interesting to see how well the likes of Quintana and Betancur go.


It's Quintanino going, i can't wait to see how he stacks up though.


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## raindog (9 May 2015)

ending of the post TTT interview with Porte on the rollers
"Thank you Ritchie, let you cooling down" 
love Italians


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## Pro Tour Punditry (9 May 2015)

There's something special about a team like Orica riding a TTT


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## rich p (9 May 2015)

Porte 20 seconds down on Bertie. Probably irrelevant but I suspect he expected to be closer than that.


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## Crackle (9 May 2015)

shoot ride by Sky but OGE, as expected, doing another great TTT.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (9 May 2015)

Reporters photo bombed by giant biscuit man


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## raindog (9 May 2015)

Gerrans in pink - nice one


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## bpsmith (9 May 2015)

Contador is hot favourite, but I can see Aru doing well too. Being an Etixx fan, I am hoping Uran does well personally. Certainly in good form.


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## raindog (9 May 2015)

Marmion said:


> Reporters photo bombed by giant biscuit man


the stuff of nightmares

agree about Aru


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## rich p (9 May 2015)

If Aru rides as well as he did last year (or even better) given his pretty ropey year so far, I shall be tweeting Greg Henderson to have another dig.


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## Flying_Monkey (9 May 2015)

Opening TTT will have zero impact on the final result.


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## raindog (9 May 2015)

User said:


> I tried to leave it, I really did but "almost British" ..........piiiissssss off, nothing of the sort and incredibly disrespectful to refer to them as almost british or ex colonial nations...
> .


yes


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## Pro Tour Punditry (9 May 2015)

I would really like to see a few riders do well in the next few stages - Greipel, Matthews and Viviani being at the top of the list.


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## HF2300 (10 May 2015)

Marmion said:


> I would really like to see a few riders do well in the next few stages - Greipel, Matthews and Viviani being at the top of the list.



I'd love to see Viviani do well, but I shied away from picking him in the punditry as I can't help feeling we'll get the usual Sky 'focus on one thing, everyone's there to work for GC' and he won't get a chance to shine. Hopefully I'll be proved wrong.

I did wonder whether it would be Moreno Hofland's sort of stage, if Lotto can get it together, but for some reason completely forgot about him when it came to the punditry.


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## Apollonius (10 May 2015)

Off topic, so apologies, but if cycle paths were like that in the UK I might consider riding on them!

(Saturday's TTT was on a gorgeous cycle path - an ex-railway line apparently - right by the sea, if you didn't see it)


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## Buddfox (10 May 2015)

Apollonius said:


> Off topic, so apologies, but if cycle paths were like that in the UK I might consider riding on them!
> 
> (Saturday's TTT was on a gorgeous cycle path - an ex-railway line apparently - right by the sea, if you didn't see it)



It was great wasn't it? I was trying to imagine a TTT along CS7 and it wasn't quite the same...


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## zimzum42 (10 May 2015)

'The fight for the pink'?!?

I, for one, am disgusted...


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## bpsmith (10 May 2015)

Too many dogs off leads, or stretchy ones, kids and people walking 6 abreast in this country. Lol.

Was pretty darn amazing yesterday that, in fairness.


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## psmiffy (10 May 2015)

Apollonius said:


> Off topic, so apologies, but if cycle paths were like that in the UK I might consider riding on them!
> 
> (Saturday's TTT was on a gorgeous cycle path - an ex-railway line apparently - right by the sea, if you didn't see it)


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## Buddfox (10 May 2015)

Viviani finally gets it right - a quality sprint from the Sky man


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## robertob (10 May 2015)

Buddfox said:


> Viviani finally gets it right - a quality sprint from the Sky man


Great patience and waited for the right moment. Was impressive to see from the overhead camera. Deserved success for him at the Giro... finally! But also great performance by Hofland. Followed the right wheels without any support from his team. Greipel maybe started off bit too early?


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## bpsmith (10 May 2015)

Not at all like Greipel, but takes nothing away from Viviani's great finish.


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## robertob (10 May 2015)

Finish to Stage 2:


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## smutchin (10 May 2015)

Yes, Greipel went early but he would have won from that position in the past... I'm beginning to think he just doesn't have that edge any more.


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## ayceejay (10 May 2015)

Thanks for that robert


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## beastie (11 May 2015)

User said:


> I tried to leave it, I really did but "almost British" ..........piiiissssss off, nothing of the sort and incredibly disrespectful to refer to them as almost british or ex colonial nations...
> .
> now thats cleared up, looking forward to the giro.....


It was very tongue in cheek you know.
Fwiw I am Scottish from an Irish family, with an English wife and am as far removed from a colonial attitude as is possible to be. 
sorry!


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## HF2300 (11 May 2015)

HF2300 said:


> I'd love to see Viviani do well, but I shied away from picking him in the punditry as I can't help feeling we'll get the usual Sky 'focus on one thing, everyone's there to work for GC' and he won't get a chance to shine. Hopefully I'll be proved wrong.
> 
> I did wonder whether it would be Moreno Hofland's sort of stage, if Lotto can get it together, but for some reason completely forgot about him when it came to the punditry.



Great job by Viviani, and by Hofland - very pleased to be proved wrong. Wonder if that was planned by Sky or a bit of freelance sniping?


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## The Couch (11 May 2015)

The camera (or directing) work is awful at times.
At the first intermediary sprint, we saw the peloton (Trek) setting up the sprint for the 6th place from the motorcycle-images, however they then switched to the helicopter-images, that had completely lost track of the front of the peloton and was filming the wrong part.
In the finishing kilometers (3-5km) there were 2 helicopters hovering over the peloton, however none of them was showing good images. The bottom helicopter was - for some unknown reason - not really zooming much, so you didn't really see well who was at the front. At one point they switched camera to the other helicopter (the upper one) but that one wasn't zooming either, so was therefore showing the bottom helicopter with some cyclists riding hard in the background. 

(Also the tv-footage of stage 1 that was added in the T of Cal thread , wasn't great either during the final K, with the trees being partly in the way and no good fixed camera's to catch the sprint)

I don't think I am being overly patriotic, when I say many races would benefit with the Belgian (Flanders) filming/directing experience in (cycling) sports.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (11 May 2015)

Turns out that the crash which took out the peloton (and resulted in Pozzivivo losing a big chunk of time) was caused by some nobber riding into the bunch from the side of the road. Pics here:
http://www.cicloweb.it/news/2015/05...tagliato-la-strada-al-gruppo-facendo-cadere-d


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## JBGooner (11 May 2015)

Never mind the scenery but how beautiful were the roads they were cycling on? I am in awe.

Then I think of the road surfaces I cycle on


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## Crackle (11 May 2015)

Marmion said:


> Turns out that the crash which took out the peloton (and resulted in Pozzivivo losing a big chunk of time) was caused by some nobber riding into the bunch from the side of the road. Pics here:
> http://www.cicloweb.it/news/2015/05...tagliato-la-strada-al-gruppo-facendo-cadere-d


Unbelievable: I read the report but didn't see any pictures until now. Wtf!


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## robertob (11 May 2015)

Crackle said:


> Unbelievable: I read the report but didn't see any pictures until now. Wtf!


Video on youtube of the crash... just sick.... why would someone do that? I don't get it. The stupidity of some people beggars believe again and again.


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## Keith Oates (11 May 2015)

It looks as if he deliberately rode into the bunch, must be either twisted of insane.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## smutchin (11 May 2015)

Keith Oates said:


> It looks as if he deliberately rode into the bunch, must be either twisted of insane.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



I thought it looked more like he fancied his chances of riding _with_ the bunch, but totally misjudged both their speed and his own riding skills. Complete and utter nobber, deserves a good kicking.


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## Keith Oates (11 May 2015)

Your probably correct @smutchin !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Hont (11 May 2015)

smutchin said:


> I thought it looked more like he fancied his chances of riding _with_ the bunch, but totally misjudged both their speed and his own riding skills. Complete and utter nobber, deserves a good kicking.


Yeah, that's how I saw it too. Still a knob, though, just a different kind of knob.


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## Hont (11 May 2015)

The Couch said:


> The camera (or directing) work is awful at times.
> At the first intermediary sprint, we saw the peloton (Trek) setting up the sprint for the 6th place from the motorcycle-images, however they then switched to the helicopter-images, that had completely lost track of the front of the peloton and was filming the wrong part.


You have a point, but it was a very built up area, which meant they kept losing the feed from the bikes and the choppers didn't have clear line of sight to the road. Frustrating, but lets see what the mountain coverage is like before making a judgement; when there won't be these sorts of problems.


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## The Couch (11 May 2015)

JBGooner said:


> Never mind the scenery but how beautiful were the roads they were cycling on? I am in awe.


Indeed, that scenery was pretty impressive yesterday. It seemed they rode the whole stage aside that beautifully blue sea on those wide and nice road(s)


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## The Couch (11 May 2015)

Hont said:


> You have a point, but it was a very built up area, which meant they kept losing the feed from the bikes and the choppers didn't have clear line of sight to the road. Frustrating, but lets see what the mountain coverage is like before making a judgement; when there won't be these sorts of problems.


Well, they just missed the intermediate sprint (again) ..so there's still improvement possible before the mountains (although to be fair, they were able to show it via replay )


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## The Couch (11 May 2015)

I read somewhere in a pre-Giro interview that Contador was saying he doesn't want the (pink) jersey too soon. He only needs to have it the last day.
Still... it's the 2nd stage (in-line) and it's the 2nd stage that Tinkof is making a very strong pace at the front of the peloton.

Can't see what's the difference is between riding like this (to protect your leader) with or without him wearing the Pink Jersey 

With this big group (and almost all teams present, with even 2 OGE-riders), one would expect that the escape is going to make it, but I guess the presence of Chaves, Nieve ( perhaps Ulissi, Fernandez and/or Zardini) is too dangerous (in the heads of the Tinkof team) to allow to have too much leeway.

The guy from Bardiani (Chirico) is riding his butt off but the peloton seems to be setting a hard pace as well, so no idea what the difference is currently (it's not being shown on tv) but I have the feeling it's not a lot


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## Crackle (11 May 2015)

52 seconds


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## Hont (11 May 2015)

Richie Porte's motorhome for the duration of the Giro (courtesy of Michael Hutchinson)...


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## The Couch (11 May 2015)

And in a totally unexpected development... Pirazzi goes in the attack
(probably to grab the KOM points )

EDIT: funny enough (or unfortunately) he catches the group, but then gets a chain problem (not being able to switch gears probably) and he immediately drops back to the peloton


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## smutchin (11 May 2015)

This is a cracking stage so far. Thought there might be some aggressive racing but didn't expect it to be this explosive!


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## The Couch (11 May 2015)

Pozzovivo down (and looking pretty much out)


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## smutchin (11 May 2015)

Pozzovivo down on a descent. Looks bad.


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## rich p (11 May 2015)

That was horrible. Here's hoping he's okay


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## Dayvo (11 May 2015)

The Couch said:


> Pozzovivo down (and looking pretty much out)



Unfortunately he looks worse than out! 

Hope he's just concussed.


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## smutchin (11 May 2015)

Apparently, Italian TV is reporting that he has regained consciousness. Clearly very badly hurt though.


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## The Couch (11 May 2015)

smutchin said:


> Apparently, Italian TV is reporting that he has regained consciousness. Clearly very badly hurt though.


Good to hear, you never wanna see someone go down like that
(And especially someone who rides as attractively as Pozzovivo)


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## smutchin (11 May 2015)

Bling!


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## Bonus (11 May 2015)

Watching the slow motion replay on YouTube seems his front wheel just went out from under him going into the corner? Hit the ground on his right side was out cold for a bit.

Hope he's ok, or as well as can be expected under the circumstances. Not nice to see anyone do that.


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## Flying_Monkey (11 May 2015)

Matthews gets it in pink - always nice to see.


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## Flying_Monkey (11 May 2015)

Cyclingnews has an amateur video of the moment that a complete farking idiot member of the public brought down the peloton yesterday - or at least it's supposed to show that - I couldn't see the person involved:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/vid...yclist-who-rode-into-the-giro-ditalia-peloton


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## Berk on a Bike (11 May 2015)

Pozzovivo's condition is described as "serious but under control" by the race doctor. AG2R tweeted he was "conscious and lucid" when taken from the road into the ambulance.


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## HF2300 (11 May 2015)

Flying_Monkey said:


> ... - or at least it's supposed to show that - I couldn't see the person involved:



You can see him just come round the flower bed on the far side as the camera goes back to the peloton at 0:09 into the video, and come off the pavement at 0:12 - he's on the far pavement about level with the lead Tinkoff rider.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (11 May 2015)

I didn't think they would have bothered checking Griepel's bike 
http://velonews.competitor.com/2015...-the-giro-ditalia-the-uci-investigates_369718


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## Dogtrousers (11 May 2015)

User said:


> Domenico Pozzovivo has not had much luck over the last year or two, specially with injuries and that crash looked real bad, now I dont blame the man in the suit for his reaction to the crash but I wish people would leave the injuried to the professionals, ....


Didn't see it but maybe the man in the suit was a trained first aider?


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## robertob (12 May 2015)

Really interesting stage today, isn't it? So many possible scenarios. Surely Gilbert will show his hands again, Gerrans possible as well? Was really impressed with Paolini yesterday, think he crashed during the stage but still sprinted in the end and finished 6th eventually. He said he'll try again to win the pink jersey. Today looks a good day for him to go for it. Also Sylvain Chavanel will surely try something today?!


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## The Couch (12 May 2015)

robertob said:


> Really interesting stage today, isn't it? So many possible scenarios. Surely Gilbert will show his hands again, Gerrans possible as well? Was really impressed with Paolini yesterday, think he crashed during the stage but still sprinted in the end and finished 6th eventually. He said he'll try again to win the pink jersey. Today looks a good day for him to go for it. Also Sylvain Chavanel will surely try something today?!


Gilbert and Gerrans are indeed obvious names. 
I would have discarded Paolini, since he actually looked to be struggling on the Flemish Ardennes climbs earlier this year, but as he indeed was still present yesterday and did a good sprint, so he might indeed be there today as well.
I believe Chavanel has already seen a lot of the ground in the last 2 days, so he might not be 100% yet.
Ulissi could have a 2nd go as well today and Pirazzi/Zardini/Bongiorni (who seem to be interchangeable) could very well be in it today as well.

Also I wonder if "sprinters" like Matthews, Fellini and Battaglin can survive today as well.
Still.... they won't go in the attack and this seems to be a stage where an escape will make it (especially if there's a OGE rider in it)
(Unless Tinkoff keep their strategy of riding an insane hard tempo to "protect" Contador)


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## smutchin (12 May 2015)

@The Couch Ulissi, Gilbert and Gerrans were the three on my shortlist for the punditry - if you think they're contenders, I find that reassuring. Almost makes me think I might have a clue what I'm talking about. Almost...

I definitely fancy Ulissi's chances today but I didn't really want to pick him on principle.


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## The Couch (12 May 2015)

smutchin said:


> @The Couch
> I definitely fancy Ulissi's chances today but I didn't really want to pick him on principle.


 


(Of course that might prevent you from picking a lot of riders )


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## Crackle (12 May 2015)

Tinkoff-Saxo are baffling me with their tactics in this race so far. Still working today, with a rider in the break.


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## beastie (12 May 2015)

Ok I have just got in and am not sure what's happened with a big, big group upfront. Anyone been watching from the start?


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## beastie (12 May 2015)

Kreuzinger at 9 mins, that can't be left for long.


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## psmiffy (12 May 2015)

robertob said:


> Really interesting stage today, isn't it?



Ive ridden the southern half of this - panniers and all - has to be one of the hardest days cycling Ive done - absolutely mega scenery tho


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## Rustybucket (12 May 2015)

These roads look amazing to ride on.


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## beastie (12 May 2015)

Big split in the bunch......mayhem!


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## Flying_Monkey (12 May 2015)

The Couch said:


> Also I wonder if "sprinters" like Matthews, Fellini and Battaglin can survive today as well.



I really don't think people should keep calling Matthews a "sprinter" (even in inverted commas). He's a puncheur with a fast finish: exactly the Gerrans or Gilbert kind of rider who can survive the lumps _and_ sprint uphill at the end...


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## HF2300 (12 May 2015)

The Couch said:


> Gilbert and Gerrans are indeed obvious names ... Also I wonder if "sprinters" like Matthews ... can survive today as well.



Must admit I thought Gilbert and Gerrans were likely, and I thought about Clarke as well if OGE want to stay in pink, but decided in the end - probably wrongly - that Matthews would make it over the hills OK and OGE might want to keep him in pink.

Apart from a slim possibility of Clarke that's all looking out the window at the moment though. At the moment, a lot of GC riders look as though they might lose a lot of time today.


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## The Couch (12 May 2015)

I don't think this display is helping with the reputation of Astana


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## The Couch (12 May 2015)

Hesjedal isn't in the peloton anymore.... JVDB is 
(for anyone who is keeping score of the outsiders)


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## tug benson (12 May 2015)

been watching for over the last hour...This stage is all over the place


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## The Couch (12 May 2015)

tug benson said:


> been watching for over the last hour...This stage tv-overview is all over the place


Fixed that for you


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## HF2300 (12 May 2015)

Flying_Monkey said:


> I really don't think people should keep calling Matthews a "sprinter" (even in inverted commas). He's a puncheur with a fast finish: exactly the Gerrans or Gilbert kind of rider who can survive the lumps _and_ sprint uphill at the end...



...although he doesn't seem to be surviving terribly well at the mo.


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## The Couch (12 May 2015)

The Couch said:


> I don't think this display is helping with the reputation of Astana


They are a quarter of the peloton when going over the top of the Passo del Termine (5 Astana's in a total of 20 riders)


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## HF2300 (12 May 2015)

Oleg's new job as DS going well so far...


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## rich p (12 May 2015)

These hills proved far too much for Matthews


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## smutchin (12 May 2015)

Flying_Monkey said:


> I really don't think people should keep calling Matthews a "sprinter" (even in inverted commas). He's a puncheur with a fast finish: exactly the Gerrans or Gilbert kind of rider who can survive the lumps _and_ sprint uphill at the end...



Is he not what you'd call a "finisseur", perhaps? I've never really fully grasped the finer nuances of these terms.


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## The Couch (12 May 2015)

Funny tweet from Tom Dumoulin:


> I'm sure 80% of the Giro bunch is like: 'Oh shoot, these are going to be three loooong weeks like this...'


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## smutchin (12 May 2015)

All over the place? It's thrilling bike racing. Have to say the last couple of days are certainly vindicating the organisers' decision to put some short, lumpy stages in this early in the race. (And indeed, just as I started typing this, the commentators made almost exactly the same comment.)


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## smutchin (12 May 2015)

The Couch said:


> I don't think this display is helping with the reputation of Astana



ES commentator just said: "Astana are riding like machines today"

I have nothing further to add to that.


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## tug benson (12 May 2015)

Think they will pull this back


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## The Couch (12 May 2015)

Uran might actually have a shot at the stage now (since I believe him to be one of the best sprinters of the GC guys)


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## HF2300 (12 May 2015)

tug benson said:


> Think they will pull this back



They're certainly cracking on.


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## tug benson (12 May 2015)

Astana have put in some effort to try and get this back together


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## rich p (12 May 2015)

Formolo One at the mo


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## smutchin (12 May 2015)

Formolo is certainly living up to the hype at the moment.

Hints of Pantani about his climbing style?


----------



## Supersuperleeds (12 May 2015)

rich p said:


> These hills proved far too much for Matthews



I cursed him by picking him on the pundit thread.


----------



## tug benson (12 May 2015)

Contador with no team mates


----------



## robertob (12 May 2015)

Wow, just wow. Contader isolated, instead all the blue Astana guys around him - must be scary. We're not even in the 'big' mountains, are we?!


----------



## tug benson (12 May 2015)

Aru goes


----------



## robertob (12 May 2015)

The big guys go!


----------



## smutchin (12 May 2015)

Paging Mr Henderson...


----------



## Flying_Monkey (12 May 2015)

This is absolutely farking great racing today.


----------



## tug benson (12 May 2015)

Uran???


----------



## Flying_Monkey (12 May 2015)

tug benson said:


> Uran???



Gone...


----------



## smutchin (12 May 2015)

You can't win the race on stage 4 but it looks like you can lose it...


----------



## raindog (12 May 2015)

Gutsy ride from Simon Clarke


----------



## tug benson (12 May 2015)

Does Clarke think he's won the stage?


----------



## The Couch (12 May 2015)

tug benson said:


> Does Clarke think he's won the stage?


Yep, but at least he has pink


----------



## Flying_Monkey (12 May 2015)

tug benson said:


> Does Clarke think he's won the stage?



I think he did, but he's going to be in pink anyway...


----------



## HF2300 (12 May 2015)

rich p said:


> Formolo One at the mo



Groan


----------



## HF2300 (12 May 2015)

Supersuperleeds said:


> I cursed him by picking him on the pundit thread.



Think we all did that. I very nearly picked Clarke, good job I didn't or he'd have got nowhere either.

What an incredible stage.


----------



## Flying_Monkey (12 May 2015)

Clarke is saying he didn't think he'd won, he was just super happy to have taken the pink. I don't think I believe him...


----------



## smutchin (12 May 2015)

Formolo looks about 12 years old!


----------



## raindog (12 May 2015)

Visconti pointed out Clarke's mistake to him after they crossed the line  poor lad
What a great 3 days for Orica in pink though. Wow, what a stage, eh?


----------



## robertob (12 May 2015)

Epic stage. Hats off to Formolo. Brave ride. Surely one for the future. Makes all that's still coming even more intriguing. Bit of a surprise to see Tinkoff's team falling apart. That was more than "just a bad day in the office" I suspect. Compare that to the "Astana machines"...


----------



## rich p (12 May 2015)

I'd like to see a photo of Greg Henderson to see how high his eyebrows are raised.


----------



## Apollonius (12 May 2015)

That was like a Tour de Yorkshire day. So much crazy stuff it was hard for the TV to keep track of it. Tinkoff (team and man) have been all over the place this year - ask Sagan! Absolutely nothing wrong with having your number 2 in the break Oleg. 
Astana? Obviously trying to deflect suspicion in a sort of Saville "hiding in plain sight" kind of way, but Cataldo always has at least one crazy day. The minor teams like Androni and Bardiani always do that kind of thing and did. Orica always go like crazy at the start of a grand tour and then fade. Sky have to cover everything and dictate every section of the race and almost did. Etixx messed up gloriously just like the rest of the season to date. Marvellous!


----------



## 400bhp (12 May 2015)

Woaaa-just watched the highlights. The race is blown apart. And what a beautiful place. 

I was willing Formolo on - have we just seen one of the future greats of cycling?

Can't see Aru keeping it going for 3 weeks, so it's between Porte & Contador.


----------



## The Couch (13 May 2015)

smutchin said:


> @The Couch Ulissi, Gilbert and Gerrans were the three on my shortlist for the punditry - if you think they're contenders, I find that reassuring. Almost makes me think I might have a clue what I'm talking about. Almost...
> 
> I definitely fancy Ulissi's chances today but I didn't really want to pick him on principle.


Ulissi 17 min down
Gilbert 13 min down
Gerrans see Ulissi

(Fellini - see Ulissi, Matthews 20 min down)

Yeah... we're bonafide experts alright


----------



## robertob (13 May 2015)

So, who has the crystal ball and predict what happens today? GC contenders show their hands? Final climb not tough enough, though? But then yesterday wasn't thought to be too tough for them either... things can change quickly. Orica in green after today again? Maybe with Esteban Chaves... as a betting man I like him at 40/1 today. Maybe Battaglin can show his hands today too? 80/1 in places looks pretty massive. Think I go with those two today...


----------



## BrumJim (13 May 2015)

Given Contador's team problems yesterday, I'd like to see the other GC contenders' teams try to put some time into him on the final climb.
However three weeks is a long time, and there is a lot of riding left before the finish.


----------



## MisterStan (13 May 2015)

Do we think Tinkov ran out of steam yesterday having tried to rule the roost on the previous stages?


----------



## raindog (13 May 2015)

big lumps today


----------



## HF2300 (13 May 2015)

MisterStan said:


> Do we think Tinkov ran out of steam yesterday having tried to rule the roost on the previous stages?



Not expert enough to know. I did wonder why they've been spending so much energy so early, and why Kreuziger went in the break yesterday - a plan to put someone up the road for Contador, or just opportunism? Supposedly Oleg's involved this week, so frankly who knows?

Tinkoff weren't the only team to blow apart yesterday though, by a long way!


----------



## MisterStan (13 May 2015)

Just seems a bit odd, considering Dirty Bertie is supposed to be chasing the double - burn your team in the first of 3 weeks racing...

God knows what Oleg's plan is!


----------



## HF2300 (13 May 2015)

MisterStan said:


> God knows what Oleg's plan is!



I bet he doesn't. I don't think even Oleg knows.


----------



## smutchin (13 May 2015)

The most obvious take on Tinkoff and Astana's tactics is that they're trying to put as many of their rivals as possible out of contention before they hit the really hard stages. And it seems to be working.

Whatever happens in the next few weeks, it's been fantastic racing so far.


----------



## The Couch (13 May 2015)

BrumJim said:


> Given Contador's team problems yesterday, I'd like to see the other GC contenders' teams try to put some time into him on the final climb.


This stage is purely the last climb that will make the difference.
So even if he should loose all his captains early on, it's going to be climbing till the end of the stage, if he ain't good enough to follow the others (Aru, more specifically it seems) it won't make that big a difference if he has helpers or not. (I know ...pace-making and/or mental support, but there will bound to be other GC riders dropping out as well to form a group with)

The fact that it seems he has a weak(er) team (than Astana) could be more/very helpful in the stages where GC guys can start the battle before the final/worst climb (or if the finish ins't on top of that climb)... then the - potential - isolation between the mountains and/or finish could mean many minutes


----------



## Flying_Monkey (13 May 2015)

smutchin said:


> The most obvious take on Tinkoff and Astana's tactics is that they're trying to put as many of their rivals as possible out of contention before they hit the really hard stages. And it seems to be working.



The danger with this strategy is that they also exhaust their own teams leaving their main contenders effectively on their own for the last week.


----------



## ayceejay (13 May 2015)

I think this is correct FM surely the best tactic is to let everyone else do the work


----------



## HF2300 (13 May 2015)

smutchin said:


> The most obvious take on Tinkoff and Astana's tactics is that they're trying to put as many of their rivals as possible out of contention before they hit the really hard stages. And it seems to be working



Indeed - just that Tinkoff seem to be going a bit wild with it! I just had the impression they were doing a lot more than they needed to, very early.

I thought also that it might be to do with trying to insulate their GC chances against a significant Porte gain in the ITT.



smutchin said:


> Whatever happens in the next few weeks, it's been fantastic racing so far.



Yes, very entertaining.


----------



## tug benson (13 May 2015)

the breakaway could do it...unless some team pulls an Astana stunt like yesterday


----------



## rich p (13 May 2015)

Has Chavanel ever won anything in recent years? He's always good value in a race but usually flatters to deceive


----------



## tug benson (13 May 2015)

Nieve had a puncture at a bad time and i don't think he is back with Porte yet, Porte only has on other sky rider with him..

The breakaway attacking each other


----------



## Flying_Monkey (13 May 2015)

Chavanel is flagging now. He's getting on a bit...


----------



## Flying_Monkey (13 May 2015)

Porte seems isolated now - Tinkoff-Saxo and Astana looking more like Sky used to, both exchanging places, sitting on the front, keeping the tempo high.


----------



## MisterStan (13 May 2015)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Chavanel is flagging now. He's getting on a bit...


Rich P has just jinxed him


----------



## Flying_Monkey (13 May 2015)

Contador goes!


----------



## tug benson (13 May 2015)

Bertie goes


----------



## Flying_Monkey (13 May 2015)

Porte, Aru following on. But not Uran, once again... and Chavez couldn't keep up either.


----------



## tug benson (13 May 2015)

Aru and Porte follow him


----------



## tug benson (13 May 2015)

Portes face didn't change a bit there


----------



## Flying_Monkey (13 May 2015)

Porte goes! This is really great fun.


----------



## tug benson (13 May 2015)

Now Aru goes..


----------



## Flying_Monkey (13 May 2015)

Aru now has Landa with him - which gives him a key advantage over the other two.


----------



## Flying_Monkey (13 May 2015)

Will Contador's groups catch Polanc? The gap is falling very quickly...


----------



## Flying_Monkey (13 May 2015)

Maybe not, the gaps are stabilizing.


----------



## Flying_Monkey (13 May 2015)

Visconti attacks from the pack! Contador's group need to watch out that peloton doesn't catch up by stealth...


----------



## Flying_Monkey (13 May 2015)

Polanc wins, Chavanel just holds on for second, the favourites sprinting for third! Aru gets the time bonus... but Contador is now in pink. Another fascinating stage; this really is a great race so far this year.


----------



## rich p (13 May 2015)

A fag paper between Contador, Porte and Aru in the long run. I wouldn't like to say who'll be strongest in the big mountains


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (13 May 2015)

Juan Antonio Flecha






Petrocelli


----------



## smutchin (13 May 2015)

rich p said:


> Has Chavanel ever won anything in recent years? He's always good value in a race but usually flatters to deceive



It's always been the way with him, hasn't it? He's long been one of my favourite riders, but it's never been his ability to actually win races that I liked about him. What I do like about him is that he's the very opposite of Thomas Bloody Voeckler - you never get the feeling that Chava is interested in personal glory, he seems to have spent much of his career sitting on the front of the peloton dragging it along on someone else's behalf, and it has always seemed to me that he's in the sport because he loves it.

He's definitely a much stronger rider than his results suggest, but he is clearly past his best now.


----------



## beastie (13 May 2015)

Flying_Monkey said:


> The danger with this strategy is that they also exhaust their own teams leaving their main contenders effectively on their own for the last week.


It looks like Astana are the strongest by far. Sky with only Kiri anywhere near Porte. Contador thinking attack is the best form of defence. It is sound tactics for Contador and Porte to attack if their teams are outgunned by Astana, Mano v Mano is preferable to 5 Astanas v Porte or Contador. 
Also Contador and (more urgently) Aru need time in hand over Porte for the ITT. Hopefully it will be attack, attack, attack for the whole 3 weeks


----------



## Flying_Monkey (13 May 2015)

Uran didn't end up losing as much time as I had thought he would today - less than 30 seconds. We know he isn't one for the sharp, steep climbs, rather the longer, slower, steadier ones. But the problem for him is that Porte, Contador and Aru can all do both...


----------



## HF2300 (13 May 2015)

Be interesting to see whether Porte has one (or more) of his traditional bad days later in the race, or whether his 'lifestyle changes' have put an end to that. If he does, it might negate any advantage he builds from the TT.


----------



## raindog (13 May 2015)

HF2300 said:


> Be interesting to see whether Porte has one (or more) of his traditional bad days later in the race, or whether his 'lifestyle changes' have put an end to that. If he does, it might negate any advantage he builds from the TT.


I've read that twice, and still can't understand it. 
Then again, I've had a couple of glasses.


----------



## raindog (13 May 2015)

smutchin said:


> He's definitely a much stronger rider than his results suggest, but he is clearly past his best now.


Yes, he's in decline now.
A big strong bloke - he can sprint (but not really) he can climb (but not really) he can TT - yes, he can TT.
Nice guy and a good all rounder, but that's it really.


----------



## HF2300 (13 May 2015)

raindog said:


> I've read that twice, and still can't understand it.
> Then again, I've had a couple of glasses.



I don't understand what you don't understand, so that makes two of us!


----------



## 400bhp (13 May 2015)

Race blown apart today. Really hope Porte can avoid a bad day, trouble is his team are in bits.


----------



## robertob (14 May 2015)

Those last two stages where just brilliant. Absolutely loving it. Great to see Contador attacking, but for the race it was even better to see the other big guns able to react, except Uran unfortunately. I'm really surprised how strong Aru looks in these early days. Seems his fitness levels are much better than some thought they would... but then, still a long way to go. 

Greipel today... go on big boy! He's from my home town, the Mecca of German cycling it seems, as Jan 'Wunderkind' Ullrich was born and grew up there too. Anyway, today is his day for Greipel, if not today, then when?!


----------



## Roscoe (14 May 2015)

Really surprised at the lack of support Porte has been getting towards the end of the stages. Astana and Tinkoff seem to have strength in numbers and are dictating the stages whereas the Sky train seems to have disappeared. On paper the squad looks strong.

Being so isolated as the race goes on will not be to his advantage.


----------



## smutchin (14 May 2015)

Maybe Sky are sitting back and letting other teams do the work, saving themselves for the mountains?

Nah, I don't believe that either.


----------



## MisterStan (14 May 2015)

smutchin said:


> Maybe Sky are sitting back and letting other teams do the work, saving themselves for the mountains?
> 
> Nah, I don't believe that either.


I was thinking that, hopefully that's the plan!


----------



## HF2300 (14 May 2015)

Roscoe said:


> Really surprised at the lack of support Porte has been getting towards the end of the stages... the Sky train seems to have disappeared. On paper the squad looks strong.



That has happened with Sky on a number of occasions - not sure what conclusions to draw from it, though. There's something they just don't quite seem to get together a lot of the time. Happened to Contador as well the other day though.


----------



## smutchin (14 May 2015)

Tbh, it's far too early to write off any team or rider. I don't fancy Uran's chances but you never know.

As for Sky, remember stage 9 of the 2013 TdF - Movistar were riding much as Astana have been riding in this Giro, attacking from the off. The Sky support fell apart, Porte completely blew up (and finished 10 minutes down), and Froome was left isolated. Then remember what happened on stage 15 to Ventoux...


----------



## Roscoe (14 May 2015)

Let's hope it's all part of Sir Dave's master plan then! Fingers crossed.

Would love to see Richie win this Giro


----------



## rich p (14 May 2015)

Konig and Nieve (until his puncture) were around, non? Two is enough when you get to the sharp end of a climb, I'd have thought.
I'm happy to see Sky not try and bully the tactics with a full on train although I can't be sure it's a master plan!


----------



## beastie (14 May 2015)

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/ga...he-giro-ditalia-through-the-years-in-pictures

Worth a browse


----------



## bpsmith (14 May 2015)

Great to see some of the younger, not so obvious riders picking up stage wins over the past couple.


----------



## Hont (14 May 2015)

rich p said:


> Two is enough when you get to the sharp end of a climb, I'd have thought.


Exactly. The onus is not going to be on Sky to control the race, with Contador in Pink and Aru second (and both Tinkoff and Astana have already shown the desire to control things), so he only needs a couple of helpers that can stick with him.


----------



## MisterStan (14 May 2015)

beastie said:


> http://www.theguardian.com/sport/ga...he-giro-ditalia-through-the-years-in-pictures
> 
> Worth a browse


Something about the old pictures makes them all look as hard as nails!


----------



## robertob (14 May 2015)

beastie said:


> http://www.theguardian.com/sport/ga...he-giro-ditalia-through-the-years-in-pictures
> 
> Worth a browse


Some awesome shots! I really, really, really like this one black and white. Awesome: http://www.theguardian.com/sport/ga...-ditalia-through-the-years-in-pictures#img-20


----------



## Roscoe (14 May 2015)

It's not so much to control the race, how about just assisting him, give him a friendly wheel to latch on to.


----------



## HF2300 (14 May 2015)

Someone take Rob Hatch out and have him shot.


----------



## Flying_Monkey (14 May 2015)

Apparently there will be a significant tail-wind at the finish - who will benefit most from this?

Matthews won't be the favourite in a super-fast straight sprint. Mezgec has looked out of sorts, as has Greipel, who would otherwise be the firm favourite. So Hofland, Viviani, Modolo...? I'm going for Hofland today.


----------



## MisterStan (14 May 2015)

I'll put my 10 pence on Viviani


----------



## rich p (14 May 2015)

HF2300 said:


> Someone take Rob Hatch out and have him shot.


Is he that bad? His correct pronunciation schtick is a bit wearing.


----------



## smutchin (14 May 2015)

Textbook finish from Greipel. Viviani and Hofland nowhere. 

Nasty looking crash. Was that a spectator's arm or leg he hit?


----------



## Berk on a Bike (14 May 2015)

Greipel from Pelucchi. Eight Italians in the top 10 an' all.


----------



## robertob (14 May 2015)

Greipel!!! Great lead out by his team. Done it all right. Shame about the fall. Hope they are all okay. But take nothing away from the big boy.


----------



## Hont (14 May 2015)

rich p said:


> Is he that bad? His correct pronunciation schtick is a bit wearing.


I like him. He's a million times better than Kirby. I know what you mean about the pronunciation, but he does speak fluent Italian and Spanish and you can't really criticise someone for getting it right.


----------



## HF2300 (14 May 2015)

smutchin said:


> Textbook finish from Greipel. Viviani and Hofland nowhere.
> 
> Nasty looking crash. Was that a spectator's arm or leg he hit?



Hofland got squeezed out and ended up way down, didn't see what happened to Viviani.

They're now saying the crash was a result of hitting a long lens or the barrier foot, or both.


----------



## HF2300 (14 May 2015)

Hont said:


> I like him. He's a million times better than Kirby. I know what you mean about the pronunciation, but he does speak fluent Italian and Spanish and you can't really criticise someone for getting it right.



Well, that's assuming he's getting it right, but the fact he ridiculously over-exaggerates it and often doesn't pronounce the same name the same way twice in a row suggests he probably doesn't and it's just a stupidly annoying mannerism. He's also infecting Matt Stephens with it in a strange kind of (mis)pronunciation one upmanship.

Apart from that he's a fairly decent commentator.


----------



## tug benson (14 May 2015)

Bertie doesn't look good here


----------



## smutchin (14 May 2015)

HF2300 said:


> Hofland got squeezed out and ended up way down, didn't see what happened to Viviani.



Viviani finished 7th. Puccio was supposed to be leading him out, by the look of it, but they seemed to be struggling to keep up in the final kilometre.



> They're now saying the crash was a result of hitting a long lens or the barrier foot, or both.



Whatever it was, he must have hit it pretty hard for his arm to end up pointing at that angle...


----------



## HF2300 (14 May 2015)

Yes, that looked really horrible. I couldn't take it in - thought it was just a loose glove at first.


----------



## Flying_Monkey (14 May 2015)

Missed the end due to a meeting, but just caught up on youtube. Made me feel sick looking at that guy's arm... urgh. Stupid fans with cameras again.

Greipel looks back to his gorilla best. Very powerful sprint.


----------



## Berk on a Bike (14 May 2015)

Cycling Weekly are calling *suspected* fractured collar bone for Contador...

[edit - added the word in bold...]


----------



## Hont (14 May 2015)

HF2300 said:


> ...the fact he ridiculously over-exaggerates it


Well I'm not sure he does over-exaggerate. We're just used to commentators pronouncing foreign words with their normal English accent, which would probably sound terrible if you were a native speaker of that language (bear in mind he's not just broadcasting to the UK). I know I always have a good chuckle when I hear a French commentator say Ondee Moo-ray.


----------



## HF2300 (14 May 2015)

We are, true, it just seems to my ears - and knowing something of how some of these names might normally be pronounced - that it's a little ... overblown? And if his pronunciation is natural, why is it often different each time?

(edit) ...or maybe I'm just a moany old git.


----------



## HF2300 (14 May 2015)

Berk on a Bike said:


> Cycling Weekly are *guessing* fractured collar bone for Contador...



All a bit speculative: http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/raci...roken-collarbone-in-giro-ditalia-crash-171473


----------



## Berk on a Bike (14 May 2015)

Tinkoff-Saxo press officer is saying "dislocated left shoulder" but there are hopes he will ride on. Blimey.

http://ciclismo.as.com/ciclismo/2015/05/14/giro_italia/1431618374_479413.html


----------



## Dogtrousers (14 May 2015)

Cripes, poor old Bertie. He looked fine to my super-expert eye as I saw him for about 3 seconds on telly after the crash.


----------



## Flying_Monkey (14 May 2015)

Dogtrousers said:


> Cripes, poor old Bertie. He looked fine to my super-expert eye as I saw him for about 3 seconds on telly after the crash.



He was holding his arm on the podium though. Looked like he couldn't move it independently which would suggest either collar-bone fracture or dislocation.


----------



## HF2300 (14 May 2015)

Berk on a Bike said:


> Tinkoff-Saxo press officer is saying "dislocated left shoulder" but there are hopes he will ride on. Blimey.
> 
> http://ciclismo.as.com/ciclismo/2015/05/14/giro_italia/1431618374_479413.html



Blimey indeed. Have to say it didn't look dislocated on the podium, but maybe he was 'lucky' (relatively) and it popped back in again. Apparently it's now been X-rayed and the race medical people have said he has instability in that shoulder compared to the other. Mind you, they also said "the rider was experiencing very slight pain" so they may be understating things...


----------



## Berk on a Bike (14 May 2015)

Love him or loathe him this Giro would be worse off without him, I think. Unless he wins. Then he'll be a tw*t.


----------



## mooseracer (14 May 2015)

Confirmed as dislocated but attemptng the start tomorrow

http://www.tinkoffsaxo.com/news/alb...lder-giro-crash-assessments-continue-stage-7/


----------



## smutchin (14 May 2015)

Meh. He won the Vuelta with a broken leg. This is nothing.


----------



## Bollo (14 May 2015)

Feck me! Just watched that finish. I'm not generally squeamish, but that arm proper turned my stomach. Hope this doesn't trash Colli's career.
<mounts high horse>What the fudge was that two hats with the camera thinking?! If the riders are that close, you've missed the shot so just enjoy the race. If you've got what looks like a 70-300mm canon lens, you missed the shot about half a minute ago. If there ever was a shot - you're more likely to get 24M pixels of out-of-focus arm, head and inflatable clapper from that position. Cameras, barriers and sprint finishes don't mix. Amateur. In the insulting sense.</>


----------



## mooseracer (14 May 2015)

a google translate of his twitter update:

I'm fine , thank you all for the affection , tomorrow I'll come work for displaced fracture of the humerus and the radial , I shall arise as always ..

https://twitter.com/DanieleColli

There's a great (funny) picture on there too ;-)


----------



## HF2300 (14 May 2015)

smutchin said:


> Meh. He won the Vuelta with a broken leg. This is nothing.



A mere flesh wound...


----------



## MikeW-71 (14 May 2015)

mooseracer said:


> There's a great (funny) picture on there too ;-)


That's the spirit Daniele 

It really was very, very nasty to see though


----------



## HF2300 (14 May 2015)

HF2300 said:


> ...but maybe he was 'lucky' (relatively) and it popped back in again. Apparently it's now been X-rayed and the race medical people have said he has instability in that shoulder compared to the other...



Contador quoted as saying it did dislocate and pop back in, then came out again at the foot of the podium and popped back in. No wonder he looked a bit ginger on the podium.

Good luck and all best wishes to Colli, not a nice thing at all & makes Contador's injury seem trivial


----------



## Crackle (14 May 2015)

You'd think Contador is going to find it pretty difficult to ride out of the saddle with this injury, in case it puts too much strain on the weakened shoulder ligaments. At the moment I'm thinking it's dented his hopes big time but I suppose we'll have to wait and see.


----------



## beastie (14 May 2015)

HF2300 said:


> Someone take Rob Hatch out and have him shot.


No way, if you do that then Carlton will be back.

Edit I see I am not alone in this


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (14 May 2015)

Dirty Bertie's new kit


----------



## HF2300 (15 May 2015)

beastie said:


> No way, if you do that then Carlton will be back.



Yeh OK, point taken.

I got a fleeting vision then of some sort of mouldering zombie Carlton emerging from a crypt...


----------



## Stonechat (15 May 2015)

I blieve if Bertie has dislocated then there will be rotor cuff damage, he would be mad to ride on especially with his out of the saddle climbing style needing more force through the arms


----------



## beastie (15 May 2015)

Stonechat said:


> I blieve if Bertie has dislocated then there will be rotor cuff damage, he would be mad to ride on especially with his out of the saddle climbing style needing more force through the arms


If it moves and it shouldn't Duck tape. (Kinesio)

Gonna hurt though, Saturday has a lonnngggg early climb which will fatigue muscles and the final climb should see Aru and Porte test him out.


----------



## Rustybucket (15 May 2015)

What a shame - I actually do feel abit sorry for bertie....
Will make for a less exciting Giro


----------



## biking_fox (15 May 2015)

beastie said:


> If it moves and it shouldn't Duck tape. (Kinesio)
> 
> Gonna hurt though, Saturday has a lonnngggg early climb which will fatigue muscles and the final climb should see Aru and Porte test him out.



What's the etiquette in situations like this. Aru only needs 2s to take pink, which he could presumably manage if he really attacks on the short climbs at the end. Or would that be 'unsporting'?


----------



## MikeW-71 (15 May 2015)

If he's in the race, he's fair game. Aru is still racing Porte, so he may attack on the last climbs, and Porte will have to respond. If Contador can't keep up, he'll get dropped, simple.


----------



## Blue Hills (15 May 2015)

Have very little interest in cycle racing, but am looking at the coverage on rai3 at the moment, introduced by the label:

FIGHT FOR PiNK.

Italians and their odd reverence for english.


----------



## beastie (15 May 2015)

biking_fox said:


> What's the etiquette in situations like this. Aru only needs 2s to take pink, which he could presumably manage if he really attacks on the short climbs at the end. Or would that be 'unsporting'?





MikeW-71 said:


> If he's in the race, he's fair game. Aru is still racing Porte, so he may attack on the last climbs, and Porte will have to respond. If Contador can't keep up, he'll get dropped, simple.



This^
All's fair in love and racing.

However one can't be sure with Contador just how bad the injury is. Broken leg one week , winning la Vuelta the next. He didn't look happy on podium though, and he hit the ground hard. It's a shame if he is badly damaged though, theracewas shaping up nicely.


----------



## smutchin (15 May 2015)

beastie said:


> All's fair in love and racing.



Yeah, people say that, but it's funny how quickly they change their mind when, say, Quintana attacks on a snow-affected descent...


----------



## Hont (15 May 2015)

Highlights from week 1 from on-bike cameras



Is it just me, or are they a bit "meh" for highlights?


----------



## MisterStan (15 May 2015)

Some nice touches though, I liked the wheel change from the bike's perspective!


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (15 May 2015)

I still don't fancy visiting Israel as a holiday destination - murderers.


----------



## HF2300 (15 May 2015)

Marmion said:


> I still don't fancy visiting Israel as a holiday destination - murderers.



I don't think they kill you just for going there.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (15 May 2015)

HF2300 said:


> I don't think they kill you just for going there.


They would if I was Palestinian, good enough reason to not go


----------



## smutchin (15 May 2015)

Haussler off the back. I considered picking him in the predictor too, the flaming galah - thought this stage looked ideal for him. Doesn't appear to have much in the way of form though.


----------



## Hont (15 May 2015)

F***ing Ulissi. So now he's winning sprints.


----------



## Crackle (15 May 2015)

Hont said:


> F***ing Ulissi. So now he's winning sprints.


Perhaps his asthma has cleared up.


----------



## tug benson (15 May 2015)

Marmion said:


> I still don't fancy visiting Israel as a holiday destination - murderers.


Just knew you would fall on the Palestinian side


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (15 May 2015)

tug benson said:


> Just knew you would fall on the Palestinian side


Always on the right side.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (15 May 2015)

Hont said:


> F***ing Ulissi. So now he's winning sprints.



It's increasingly depressing how well ex dopers are doing this year


----------



## HF2300 (15 May 2015)

Hont said:


> F***ing Ulissi. So now he's winning sprints.



Someone else I couldn't bring myself to pick in the punditry.


----------



## mjr (15 May 2015)

Blue Hills said:


> FIGHT FOR PiNK.
> 
> Italians and their odd reverence for english.


You have no idea. Try German Eurosport for a true linguistic horror mash-up. Robbie Williams advertising VW in English and broken German, and of course "FOCUS: BIKES MADE IN GERMANY".


----------



## mjr (15 May 2015)

Anyone else notice how much new tarmac there was on today's stage? Often when the race turned left or right, the new tarmac turned too and stuff anyone continuing on the same road.... I know it happens, but it seemed really noticeable today.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (16 May 2015)

Reminder for those with Eurosport - live coverage of stage 8 starts in 15 minutes at 12.30 

Unfortunately I have 8 teenagers coming for a sleepover tonight and have to go out shopping for supplies of additive-enhanced foodstuffs  and beer for myself


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (16 May 2015)

Anyone know who the posh bloke is who does the Giro Extra show with Juan Antonio Flecha?


----------



## rich p (16 May 2015)

Well, surprisingly, Bert has taken a 2 second intermediate bonification.


----------



## Booyaa (16 May 2015)

interesting stage today, Looking forward to it.


----------



## tug benson (16 May 2015)

Astana up the pace


----------



## beastie (16 May 2015)

Soon see how bad Contador feels. Aru has to attack, Porte has to follow. Should be interesting indeed.


----------



## tug benson (16 May 2015)

will be funny if Betancur takes the stage


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (16 May 2015)

Good to see Pozzovivo up and about


----------



## tug benson (16 May 2015)

Aru!!!!


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (16 May 2015)

With every Astana pedal stroke you can just imagine the UCI wondering how long it will take to catch them out and block their licence


----------



## raindog (16 May 2015)

Berto out of the saddle, but he can't rock his shoulders properly.


----------



## Bobby Mhor (16 May 2015)

Marmion said:


> With every Astana pedal stroke you can just imagine the UCI wondering how long it will take to catch them out and block their licence


On a slightly related subject, the Tour of California is sponsored by Amgen who manufacture EPO apparently (sorry if already posted elsewhere)


----------



## Dogtrousers (16 May 2015)

It's bad to wish misfortune on people, but wouldn't it be good if Reichenbach were to fall, enabling the commentators to make a great Sherlock Holmes related comment.


----------



## robertob (16 May 2015)

Hit the crossbar yesterday with Lobato but today the big one got in - many thanks Intxausti - not every day having a 125/1 winner! Though I barely could watch the final kilometres. Thought Landa would catch him...


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (16 May 2015)

Astana riding as strongly as they are and signs of strength from Cunego do not fill me with hope that the fight against doping is getting anywhere fast enough to catch the dopers.


----------



## robertob (16 May 2015)




----------



## ayceejay (16 May 2015)

Thank you for that Robert.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (17 May 2015)

Sky Giromanga


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (17 May 2015)

Marmion said:


> Anyone know who the posh bloke is who does the Giro Extra show with Juan Antonio Flecha?



I found out myself, thanks for all your help  He seems a strange choice. I thought I recognised him from somewhere and it was the Warranty Direct advert; he was an annoying twat in that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashley_House_(TV_presenter)


----------



## tug benson (17 May 2015)

should have a good stage today


----------



## tug benson (17 May 2015)

Astana sending riders out


----------



## rich p (17 May 2015)

Marmion said:


> I found out myself, thanks for all your help  He seems a strange choice. I thought I recognised him from somewhere and it was the Warranty Direct advert; he was an annoying twat in that.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashley_House_(TV_presenter)


He's got a gigantic gob and sounds like a laconic Matthew Pinsent


----------



## tug benson (17 May 2015)

That will be the reason for the red flag


----------



## rich p (17 May 2015)

tug benson said:


> That will be the reason for the red flag


What, Ashley's big gob?


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (17 May 2015)

rich p said:


> He's got a gigantic gob and sounds like a laconic Matthew Pinsent



View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCGOzVwFmqI


----------



## rich p (17 May 2015)

Ah, the motorbike! Got it


----------



## tug benson (17 May 2015)

I don't mind big Ashley at the end of the stage, sure he looks a smug bugger but he's ok


----------



## rich p (17 May 2015)

tug benson said:


> I don't mind big Ashley at the end of the stage, sure he looks a smug bugger but he's ok


I think Juan Antonio likes him too, judging by his perpetual smile!


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (17 May 2015)

tug benson said:


> I don't mind big Ashley at the end of the stage, sure he looks a smug bugger but he's ok



Aye, he's not bad albeit he has a slightly annoying manner but I think he and Flecha are a good pairing - but he still seems a strange choice.

Back at the commentary:
"Big oranges, massive lemons..."


----------



## rich p (17 May 2015)

Matt Stephens isn't a bad second man in the comm box IMO either


----------



## rich p (17 May 2015)

Marmion said:


> With every Astana pedal stroke you can just imagine the UCI wondering how long it will take to catch them out and block their licence


Paolo Tiralongo is going well for a 37 year old. Burying himself on the mountain yesterday and out in the break today.
Astasanatogena ...


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (17 May 2015)

I'm not sure that the intended outcome of the Skoda advert was to make me want to have a huge ice-cream, but I do.


----------



## rich p (17 May 2015)

Marmion said:


> I'm not sure that the intended outcome of the Skoda advert was to make me want to have a huge ice-cream, but I do.


I had a beer instead


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (17 May 2015)

rich p said:


> I had a beer instead



I had the ice-cream - lovely Honeycomb yumminess.


----------



## tug benson (17 May 2015)

Now we're talking


----------



## tug benson (17 May 2015)

Uran dropped again


----------



## rich p (17 May 2015)

Astana have prepared well for this race.


----------



## rich p (17 May 2015)

I just hope that Slagter beats that old fella from Astana


----------



## tug benson (17 May 2015)

think that last climb destroyed Slagter


----------



## tug benson (17 May 2015)

Astana are scary strong just now


----------



## tug benson (17 May 2015)

Screw you Uran, you've ruined my velogames score


----------



## tug benson (17 May 2015)

They are going to do a number on Porte


----------



## Bobby Mhor (17 May 2015)

I think Aru is going to try nip off soon


----------



## Crackle (17 May 2015)

Picked the wrong bloke for today's punditry. I thought about Tiralongo but figured he'd be playing the team game, pah! Still, he is in my velogames squad.

I'm not enjoying Astana dominating this.


----------



## Stonechat (17 May 2015)

Crackle said:


> Picked the wrong bloke for today's punditry. I thought about Tiralongo but figured he'd be playing the team game, pah! Still, he is in my velogames squad.
> 
> I'm not enjoying Astana dominating this.


I was miffed at Intxausti, I dumped him the day before


----------



## robertob (17 May 2015)

rich p said:


> Astana have prepared well for this race.


Riding like machines, _almost_ too good too be true. Maybe a dubious Spanish doctor prescribed some vitamins?


----------



## HF2300 (17 May 2015)

HF2300 said:


> Another breakaway day doesn't bode well for punditry.
> 
> 9 - Gilbert (thus ensuring that it won't be Gilbert, and it will be one of the two or three I thought about and decided against)



Knew I'd picked the wrong guy in the punditry. I came really close to picking Astana's team doctor, then decided not to.


----------



## Crackle (17 May 2015)

Crackle said:


> Picked the wrong bloke for today's punditry. I thought about Tiralongo but figured he'd be playing the team game, pah! *Still, he is in my velogames squad.*



Oh no he wasn't. Tiralongo/ Paolini, they're interchangeable really.......


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (17 May 2015)

Astana are not even bothering to make it look like they are a legitimate team.


----------



## themosquitoking (17 May 2015)

Maybe they're just going balls to the wall while they still can.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (17 May 2015)

Quite possibly, they do seem to be riding like a team who has thought "you know what, f*ck it - everyone knows we are cheating so we'd be as well just ripping them to shreds"


----------



## Crackle (17 May 2015)

It's hard to square up the Astana Dario Cataldo with the Sky one. Perhaps they're twins?


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (18 May 2015)

Just spotted EQS reporting that Uran had bronchitis during the first week. And is now recovering/recovered.
TUE anyone?


----------



## Strathlubnaig (18 May 2015)

Not a bad Giro so far, 8 different stage winners from 7 different teams, nice to mix it up like that. Would like to see one of the main GC lads go try light it up a bit though rather than the sit and wait game.


----------



## rich p (18 May 2015)

Looking at the profiles for next week, it looks like it could be a status quo until the mtn top finish to Madonna di Campiglio on Sunday. A couple of rouleur profiles and a few sprinters'.
It could, of course, prove otherwise considering the slightly unpredictable racing so far. I hope so or else it may feel like a transition week.


----------



## Apollonius (18 May 2015)

Don't forget the up-hill individual time trial next Saturday. I think Porte will fancy that.


----------



## smutchin (18 May 2015)

Apollonius said:


> Don't forget the up-hill individual time trial next Saturday. I think Porte will fancy that.



Already looking forward to Aru doing "The Time Trial Of His Life".


----------



## smutchin (18 May 2015)

Inrng has a typically level-headed take on the first week - he makes the good point that despite Astana and Tinkoff's super-aggressive racing, it hasn't really achieved that much...
http://inrng.com/2015/05/giro-week-one-review/#more-24853

It will indeed be interesting to see if they're still going full gas in the third week.

Porte is incredibly well placed at the moment. He's a matter of seconds off the top without having appeared to do anything other than the bare minimum to stay in contention. It was good to see him sitting on the group of leaders and refusing to do any work on yesterday's stage, rather than dashing off up the road like an over-excited puppy - shows a more mature approach that should help him stay in contention well into the third week...


----------



## HF2300 (18 May 2015)

I was thinking the same this morning. It doesn't seem as though Tinkoff and Astana's flat out tactics are doing anything apart from tiring them out (and dropping Uran and a few of the less likely contenders). Maybe their plan is to whittle the GC contention down to the bare minimum early to simplify things.

To be fair to Astana, it's easy to point fingers or make jokes but it's not as if they're romping away from the opposition, and if they were doped up to the eyeballs might you expect them to be able to put more time on Porte, Contador (in his damaged state) and a few others? As you say, if they've still got the legs to do the same and more in the third week it might be more suspicious. What I do find odd is the proportion of Astana riders who seem to have little difficulty keeping up compared to other teams, and perhaps 37 year olds romping off uphill to bag stage wins without difficulty?

Porte's tactics might not win him friends but assuming Sky aren't right on their limit, they look very sensible to be doing as little as possible, letting Tinkoff and Astana tow them and saving their legs for when it matters. Are we seeing a changed Sky here - no longer on the front all the time, letting Viviani compete for sprints, and so on??

Edit - just reading that INRNG article, as you say a sensible assessment. He also comments as we have on the oddity of particularly Tinkoff's tactics and whether Sky are playing the long game, amongst other things. I hadn't realised Porte was sleeping in a motorhome. Interesting article.


----------



## smutchin (18 May 2015)

HF2300 said:


> What I do find odd is the proportion of Astana riders who seem to have little difficulty keeping up compared to other teams, and perhaps 37 year olds romping off uphill to bag stage wins without difficulty?



Landa isn't too much of a surprise given his recent form. He's a much improved rider this year but that's not necessarily suspicious in itself. I'm quite enjoying watching him shine this season, tbh.

Cataldo's form isn't necessarily suspicious either - he was never anything other than a domestique at Sky so maybe he's just getting a bit more opportunity to express himself now. 

Tiralongo... well... I'm saying nothing.

Aru is a phenomenal rider but, like Nibali, is tainted by association with Astana and you can't help wondering what motivated Henderson's tweet about him. No smoke without fire? We'll see.

Diego Rosa is still fairly young and has always looked like a good strong climber. Kangert once looked like an exciting GC prospect until his knee problems. I'm pleased to see him on the up again. Nothing of particular concern about them except general suspicions about the team they're on.

Reassuringly, LL Sanchez doesn't look anything like the rider he once was.


----------



## rich p (18 May 2015)

HF2300 said:


> What I do find odd is the proportion of Astana riders who seem to have little difficulty keeping up compared to other teams, and perhaps 37 year olds romping off uphill to bag stage wins without difficulty


This is the point though.
That and the fact that Aru seems to have made a pretty spectacular recovery from a poor season and recent sickness.
I agree that it may not be suspicious but it certainly raises my eyebrows.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (18 May 2015)

That chap Armstrong's rise to domination seemed logical. For those wanting it to be.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (18 May 2015)

smutchin said:


> Aru is a phenomenal rider but, like Nibali, is tainted by association with Astana and you can't help wondering what motivated Henderson's tweet about him. No smoke without fire? We'll see.



Not just his association with Astana:
http://espoirscentral.blogspot.co.uk/2015/04/riders-of-olivano-locatelli.html


----------



## Dayvo (18 May 2015)

Marmion said:


> That chap Armstrong's rise to domination seemed logical. For those wanting it to be.



Yeah, the moon landing was a scam!


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (18 May 2015)

Aru files lawsuit(s) against Henderson
https://translate.google.com/transl...famazione-carera-napoleone-110876738207.shtml

Cheating twat.


----------



## HF2300 (18 May 2015)

rich p said:


> HF2300 said:
> 
> 
> > What I do find odd is the proportion of Astana riders who seem to have little difficulty keeping up compared to other teams, and perhaps 37 year olds romping off uphill to bag stage wins without difficulty?
> ...



Oh, absolutely. It was really a rhetorical question - that, as you say, is the point.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (18 May 2015)

Here's Astana's next great hope watching Tom Jelte Slagter go past; tipped to win a mountain stage at next year's race


----------



## Crackle (18 May 2015)

Marmion said:


> Aru files lawsuit(s) against Henderson
> https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.gazzetta.it/Ciclismo/giroditalia/18-05-2015/aru-henderson-tweet-querela-diffamazione-carera-napoleone-110876738207.shtml
> 
> Cheating twat.


Yes, where have we seen that before....

In the meantime, tomorrow looks like a good day for my pick of the sprinters, Mezgec. He is at the race isn't he. I mean I'm sure someone mentioned him.


----------



## robertob (18 May 2015)

I quite like Porte's motorhome - looks quite spacious and cosy actually: http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/raci...e-richie-portes-giro-ditalia-motorhome-172385


----------



## JBGooner (19 May 2015)

I wonder if all those Astana riders busted during the winter were just makeweights to experiment the correct dosages on


----------



## Roscoe (19 May 2015)

Astana certainly raising eyebrows. Surely they wouldn't be so stupid?


----------



## BrumJim (19 May 2015)

Jeremy Clarke syndrome. They've misbehaved and got away with it. Now believe they are impervious to all criticism and allegations, and can do what they want with impunity.


----------



## tug benson (19 May 2015)

Batman looked a bit camp


----------



## tug benson (19 May 2015)

Porte with problems in the last 4K...Getting paced back by the sky train


----------



## tug benson (19 May 2015)

Porte 30 seconds back from the Peloton


----------



## robertob (19 May 2015)

Breakaway wins it, you kidding me?! Sprinter teams messed up badly.... but great to see that courage pays off from time to time. Porte must have lost close to 35s or something?


----------



## biking_fox (19 May 2015)

If this is his 'bad day' of the tour, he'll count himself lucky to have got away with a 30s loss. But somehow I doubt it.

What happened in the peleton? This was supposed to be a sprinter's day - they had the break at 4' all day and could have reeled them in anytime they wanted to up until the last k. Someone wasn't watching? Or everyone was waiting for someone else to go?


----------



## The Couch (19 May 2015)

If anybody put money on Boem today, he just won a ton of money


----------



## BrumJim (19 May 2015)

Is this the day that justifies the breakaway group at all road races for decades to come?


----------



## Crackle (19 May 2015)

Giro day in 'turned upside down' shocker. Marginal losses.


----------



## Shadow (19 May 2015)

Great to see a breakaway finish it off. Looked like only Lotto Soudal were prepared to work at the front.
And what actually happened to Porte? A mechanical rather than a _jour sans_?


----------



## Flying_Monkey (19 May 2015)

Shadow said:


> And what actually happened to Porte? A mechanical rather than a _jour sans_?



Yeah, it was a mechanical - unfortunately just at the time when the peloton speeded up in their ultimately futile attempt to catch the breakaway, which meant that even with three teammates pacing him back, he was never going to catch up.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (19 May 2015)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Yeah, it was a mechanical - unfortunately just at the time when the peloton speeded up in their ultimately futile attempt to catch the breakaway, which meant that even with three teammates pacing him back, he was never going to catch up.



Porte tweeted to say that Simon Clarke gave him his front wheel, and then pushed him off...


----------



## smutchin (19 May 2015)

I didn't see it but I also read that Matthews dropped back to help pace him. Is that correct?


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (19 May 2015)

smutchin said:


> I didn't see it but I also read that Matthews dropped back to help pace him. Is that correct?



He also tweeted his thanks to Matthews, but did not expand on why


----------



## Crackle (19 May 2015)

Pretty sure I saw that.


smutchin said:


> I didn't see it but I also read that Matthews dropped back to help pace him. Is that correct?


----------



## NormanD (19 May 2015)

OOPS!!


----------



## Crackle (19 May 2015)

NormanD said:


> OOPS!!


Just seen that. Waiting for more info about why.


----------



## roadrash (19 May 2015)

Why was all the cars ordered to stop at the time he punctured.........


----------



## smutchin (19 May 2015)

Crackle said:


> Just seen that. Waiting for more info about why.



Why? It seems like a pretty clear infringement of a pretty clear rule.

Stupid way to lose a race.


----------



## smutchin (19 May 2015)

Of course, you have to wonder if the commissaries might have turned a blind eye if Porte hadn't already ruffled feathers with his behaviour outside the race so far...


----------



## Crackle (19 May 2015)

smutchin said:


> Why? It seems like a pretty clear infringement of a pretty clear rule.
> 
> Stupid way to lose a race.


I must admit to not being fully familiar with the rule but I would have thought Porte was, having now read it. Got to wonder what was going on in his head.

I was expecting him to mess up somewhere but not quite like this.


----------



## smutchin (19 May 2015)

Crackle said:


> I must admit to not being fully familiar with the rule but I would have thought Porte was



Exactly. I wasn't aware of the rule either, but it's not our job to know the rules...


----------



## Crackle (19 May 2015)

smutchin said:


> Exactly. I wasn't aware of the rule either, but it's not our job to know the rules...


From his tweets, he doesn't seem to be aware of the rule either.


----------



## robertob (19 May 2015)

Sportsmanship breaks rules? That makes sense.


----------



## HF2300 (19 May 2015)

smutchin said:


> Of course, you have to wonder if the commissaries might have turned a blind eye if Porte hadn't already ruffled feathers with his behaviour outside the race so far...



...and given that commissaires have turned blind eyes to quite blatant tows from team cars etc. in the past. There's also the oddity of the vehicle convoy being stopped at about the same time - it's suggested that's why Porte's team car couldn't get to him, leading to Clarke giving him a wheel. I didn't see what happened, but Flecha was commenting on it afterwards and didn't seem to understand why it was done.

I'm not suggesting conspiracy, but it does seem a bit harsh.

Wha is 'non-regulation assistance'? I assume, without wading through the regs, that they lay down precisely who a rider can receive assistance from.


----------



## Hont (19 May 2015)

HF2300 said:


> so apparently Porte's team car couldn't get to him, leading to Clarke giving him a wheel.



The picture shows a sky rider in shot, so he could have (and should have) given his wheel instead.


----------



## MrGrumpy (19 May 2015)

Wonder if this had not been a GC contender whether they would be as harsh ??? I think not! If you have to play by the rules then let's make sure that everyone plays by the rules .


----------



## Berk on a Bike (19 May 2015)

Any sanction against Clarke or Orica?


----------



## Crackle (19 May 2015)

Berk on a Bike said:


> Any sanction against Clarke or Orica?


Same two minutes and $200 fine for Clarke.


----------



## rich p (19 May 2015)

That's fúcked that then. Aru - possibly doper, versus ex-doper Contador.


----------



## PpPete (19 May 2015)

Hont said:


> The picture shows a sky rider in shot, so he could have (and should have) given his wheel instead.



This ^^^^


----------



## Crackle (19 May 2015)

Will he stay in or take his toys home.


----------



## PpPete (19 May 2015)

> “It just goes to show you that you can either live by the letter of the law or the spirit of the law,” Brailsford said, talking calmly as he headed for his team car.
> 
> “Most people would accept that that was one of the most interesting, instinctive moments of fair play we’ve seen in sport for a long time, particularly in our sport, which has been a bit blighted by issues of unfair play.
> 
> “However, there’s a lesson in there, isn’t there? That [if] it’s the letter of the law rather than the spirit of the law then that’s that. ”



So ... Sky attacking next time Bertie stops for a piss?


----------



## HF2300 (19 May 2015)

Hont said:


> The picture shows a sky rider in shot, so he could have (and should have) given his wheel instead.



Indeed he should. Thanks, missed that, the photo I saw was a few seconds later and didn't show the Sky rider. In fact, that's another oddity - why didn't he, and why did Clarke offer a wheel if a Sky man was there?

Still odd about the convoy being stopped though, even if no cause and effect - has a reason been given?


----------



## rich p (19 May 2015)

HF2300 said:


> Indeed he should. Thanks, missed that, the photo I saw was a few seconds later and didn't show the Sky rider. In fact, that's another oddity - why didn't he, and why did Clarke offer a wheel if a Sky man was there?
> 
> Still odd about the convoy being stopped though, even if no cause and effect - has a reason been given?


Maybe they thought that it was better if the Sky rider was available to pace Porte back.


----------



## Flying_Monkey (19 May 2015)

If it matters, it wasn't pure sportsmanship anyway. It was one Australian helping another. I'm not sure why patriotism is somehow purer or better than loyalty to your teammates. 

In any case, Sky and its riders should have known the rules, and with at least one teammate there he should have taken a wheel from his teammate - after all, we've seen this happen loads of times - and ridden up with whoever else was around. If he had merely ridden back with Clarke and others, this would not have incurred the penalty. 

This is one of the stupidest ways to potentially lose a GT that I've ever seen, and I'm not blaming 'the rules'...


----------



## beastie (19 May 2015)

Apparently Contador removed his helmet for a few seconds on Stage 7. The penalty for which is DQ. The commisaires won't be enforcing that one for sure.


----------



## rich p (19 May 2015)

Not knowing the rules is rife in professional sport. You only have to listen to controversial moments in football, rugby and cricket to realise that pros and ex-pros are often clueless in the nuances of regulation. That, in no way, excuses them.


----------



## woohoo (19 May 2015)

AIUI, by the time that photo was taken, Porte already had Clarke's wheel on his bike because there were no Sky team mates around, The Sky rider facing Porte had been called back (which I believe may also be against the rules, although Lemond's team turned round to pace him back in a TdF of many years ago). There was no clear video coverage of the actual incident that I can find but in the live coverage, it was obvious that the Sky riders were a bit confused about what was going on and had sat up and starting looking around.


----------



## Dogtrousers (19 May 2015)

Interesting.

I don't think Richie's the sharpest knife in the box. Not knowing the regulations is one thing, maximising publicity by putting photos of you breaking them on Twitter is a step beyond.

I didn't know that rule, but I can see the point. I know that there are all kinds of informal alliances forming across teams, and stages gifted here and there but it's anti-competitive, really.

I can easily imagine a scenario where people would be up in arms about the <insert nation here> mafia, if an unpopular rider obtained mechanical help from a compatriot from another team enabling him to get the better of a more popular rider. Clear mechanical help is one case where the authorities can act, whereas they can't in more nuanced cases.


----------



## DanZac (19 May 2015)

It's a shame to see a bit of the competition taken out of the GC for a rule infringement, however that said and more importantly, it is the respect of the rules and the gentlemanly way in which in most cases the sport is conducted which stands it above the foul mouthed abusive augment fest that we see every day from our so called football sporting hero's.
At the end of the day it is unfortunately a bit of patriotic gentlemanly behaviour which in this case appears to have come back and bitten both Porte and Clarke.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (19 May 2015)

Dogtrousers said:


> I don't think Richie's the sharpest knife in the box. Not knowing the regulations is one thing, maximising publicity by putting photos of you breaking them on Twitter is a step beyond.



I think the pics were first put out on social media by the organisers


----------



## col1888 (19 May 2015)

So is giving another rider from another team food or drink classed as regulation assistance ? Cos I've seen that happen all the time !


----------



## rich p (19 May 2015)

Apparently Richie's motorhome had a flat the other day and the Astana tour-bus lent them a spare.


----------



## Dogtrousers (19 May 2015)

Marmion said:


> I think the pics were first put out on social media by the organisers


OK fair enough. That's a bit weird actually.


----------



## sleaver (19 May 2015)

I don't often post in here so please excuse my ignorance 

Rules are rules and maybe Porte did know about it. Playing devils advocate though, your racing along at the speed they were going and you get a puncture 7km from the end and start to see your 3rd place in GC quickly disappear. In the heat of the moment, is your first instinct to turn away help or take what you can get and get going again? Maybe Porte did try and stop Clarke giving him his wheel but Clarke wouldn't listen. 

Going back to "rules are rules". IMHO, that's fine as long as they are applied fairly and consistently. You've got Astana racing when really they should have possibly lost their licence for something that is a lot worse than a wheel change and is it me, or does their performance in this tour seem rather impressive based on the past 

What would be interesting to know but something that may never be found out, if that was an Italian going by the name or Aru, would he have got the penalty?


----------



## Dogtrousers (19 May 2015)

col1888 said:


> So is giving another rider from another team food or drink classed as regulation assistance ? Cos I've seen that happen all the time !



From the road races pdf, here: http://www.uci.ch/inside-uci/rules-and-regulations/regulations/

_Rights and duties of riders 
2.3.012 
All riders may render each other such minor services as lending or exchanging food, drink, spanners or accessories. The lending or exchanging of tubular tyres or bicycles and waiting for a rider who has been dropped or involved in an accident shall be permitted only amongst riders of the same team. The pushing of one rider by another shall in all cases be forbidden, on pain of disqualification._

Spanners? When was that written? Not many nuts on modern bikes.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (19 May 2015)

Dogtrousers said:


> OK fair enough. That's a bit weird actually.



The time penalty (and fine) were imposed by the race commissars/judge panel, and not the organisers or UCI.

Reaction from organisers re posting pics seems as if they thought it was "sporting"


----------



## col1888 (19 May 2015)

Dog trousers thanks for that. It does seem that they enforce the rules when it suits them though ! The train barriers at Paris Roubaix for example ! Bit more dangerous and obvious than a wheel swap !


----------



## themosquitoking (19 May 2015)

rich p said:


> Not knowing the rules is rife in professional sport. You only have to listen to controversial moments in football, rugby and cricket to realise that pros and ex-pros are often clueless in the nuances of regulation. That, in no way, excuses them.


A lot of sportsmen aren't capable of understanding the rules that govern their sport, the rules/laws governing most sports are written in lawyer speak.


----------



## rich p (19 May 2015)

Whether or not it was justified by the rules, or that Porte should have been aware of the rule, it's screwed the race big time, which is, at the very least, a big disappointment for the spectators.


----------



## rich p (19 May 2015)

themosquitoking said:


> A lot of sportsmen aren't capable of understanding the rules that govern their sport, the rules/laws governing most sports are written in lawyer speak.


Yes, but I played a reasonably decent level of football with players who had no idea of the indirect free kick rules, for instance. It's not uncommon.


----------



## themosquitoking (19 May 2015)

Oh yeah, massive bollock by the race organizers if they're trying to look anything less than partisan.


----------



## themosquitoking (19 May 2015)

rich p said:


> Yes, but I played a reasonably decent level of football with players who had no idea of the indirect free kick rules, for instance. It's not uncommon.


I know, you should try and read the rules governing us electricians at some point. Crapping unreadable at some points.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (19 May 2015)

Maybe Astana and TinkoSaxoff will get penalised for sharing medicines?


----------



## HF2300 (19 May 2015)

rich p said:


> Maybe they thought that it was better if the Sky rider was available to pace Porte back.



Yes, I wondered that, or whether the Sky rider wasn't there when Clarke first offered the wheel. You'd have thought it'd be more obvious to take a Sky wheel then let Clarke pace you back. These things are often heat of the moment though.

As you say, the worst of it is the disproportionate effect on GC; though if Porte rises to the challenge perhaps it might inject more interest into the race.



Dogtrousers said:


> _Rights and duties of riders
> 2.3.012
> The lending or exchanging of tubular tyres or bicycles and waiting for a rider who has been dropped or involved in an accident shall be permitted only amongst riders of the same team. The pushing of one rider by another shall in all cases be forbidden, on pain of disqualification._



Thanks. That's where the non-regulation assistance comes in then. I was too lazy to look it up.



Marmion said:


> Reaction from organisers re posting pics seems as if they thought it was "sporting"



Apparently the commissaires were challenged about using Porte's tweet to penalise him and said that pics were all over the internet within a few minutes of the stage finishing and that was what brought it to their attention.



themosquitoking said:


> I know, you should try and read the rules governing us electricians at some point.



Are you only allowed to receive fuses from other electricians in your own company?


----------



## rich p (19 May 2015)

Marmion said:


> Maybe Astana and TinkoSaxoff will get penalised for sharing medicines?


That's just Aru ma .....


HF2300 said:


> Are you only allowed to receive fuses from other electricians in your own company?


----------



## sleaver (19 May 2015)

From the Giro's Twitter feed. So, "It's the best sport in the world" is it


----------



## sleaver (19 May 2015)

The rule say, unless I'm wrong:

"Non-regulation assistance TO a rider of another team - stage races"

If the is right, it says TO not FROM. Therefore, why did Porte get the penalty? Unless there is a rule covering "from".


----------



## mjr (19 May 2015)

So, going back a minute or two earlier in the race, Continental must be so glad for the publicity about Sky switching to their tyres, eh? http://velonews.competitor.com/2015/05/news/sky-tests-new-tires-following-wet-weather-crashes_370474


----------



## Archie (20 May 2015)

Regardless of the penalty, the fact Porte had a mechanical with no teammates around is unforgivable strategy. With a minder he should have been on the road again with a complete bike swop in 10 seconds, and other teammates aware of the situation to pace him back. The two minute penalty is just the tin lid on 45 seconds that shouldn't have been lost. 

Marginal gains my arse.


----------



## zimzum42 (20 May 2015)

smutchin said:


> Of course, you have to wonder if the commissaries might have turned a blind eye if Porte hadn't already ruffled feathers with his behaviour outside the race so far...





Flying_Monkey said:


> If it matters, it wasn't pure sportsmanship anyway. It was one Australian helping another. I'm not sure why patriotism is somehow purer or better than loyalty to your teammates.


I think one thing we can be 100% sure of is that if it were two Italians on opposing teams who had done this they wouldn't have been penalised, they would have been lauded across the land...


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (20 May 2015)

Wasn't sure whether to put this here or the doping git thread, but opted for here.

INRNG are reporting on twitter that L'Equipe have identified that MPCC member team Bardiani-CSF allowed one rider to start the Giro despite a low cortisol level being detected in a pre-race UCI test...

Previous article about cortisol in INRNG
http://inrng.com/2013/06/mpcc-cortisol-test/

edit - will it be Boem? Or just a coincidence re timing?


----------



## Slaav (20 May 2015)

Lots of thoughts re Porte.....

Was it ignorance or a calculated gamble? If there was no immediate Sky rider available, then go for it, cross your fingers and hope for the best? Stick out the tweets of 'sportsmanship' etc and try to sway the jury, KNOWING YOU ARE PUSHING YOUR LUCK BUT WITHOUT THE GAMBLE, GC is gone anyway?

Then, one does have to question why Porte was seemingly isolated AGAIN!?

Anybody remember when Froome was called back to stay with Brad just in case???

And although I am a big DB fan, he is now mocking the fact that it is no longer the spirit of the rules but the minutiae and pedantry within the rules that counts apparently? Does anybody remember Porte going back to the team car and illegally grabbing some gels and handing them to Froome? Was that careful and considered reworking of the rules or in the true spirit of the rules?

Sometimes I truly despair!


----------



## HF2300 (20 May 2015)

Photo Hont posted does show a Sky rider (Eisel?) present, though he's pointed the wrong way and may have just arrived on the scene too late.

Giro's fair play scorings are interesting... http://www.gazzetta.it/Giroditalia/...gs/general/fair-play-prize.shtml?t=10&lang=en


----------



## mjr (20 May 2015)

PpPete said:


> So ... Sky attacking next time Bertie stops for a piss?


It would be rather naughty but quite amusing if done repeatedly, wouldn't it? Would the TV cameras (which usually turn away when riders are stopping for that) catch it?


----------



## Roscoe (20 May 2015)

I asked this earlier in the race and I'll ask it again. Why does Sky's protected rider not have any teamates around him? He is isolated and the outcome this time could cost him a podium place, let alone an outright win.

Still think it's a bit off giving him a 2 minute penalty. Will be interesting to see if every other infringement is now cracked down on.


----------



## zimzum42 (20 May 2015)

Maybe Porte was chatting with the other Aussies and had told his team to go up front and make some pace?

It's all speculation...


----------



## rich p (20 May 2015)

Roscoe said:


> I asked this earlier in the race and I'll ask it again. Why does Sky's protected rider not have any teamates around him? He is isolated and the outcome this time could cost him a podium place, let alone an outright win.
> 
> Still think it's a bit off giving him a 2 minute penalty. Will be interesting to see if every other infringement is now cracked down on.


He was with the rest of the team but at a roundabout he was the only one to take his way round so was instantly isolated when he punctured at that point for a minute or so.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/porte-team-sky-are-fired-up-to-gain-back-time-at-giro-ditalia

_
The incident happened with just over four kilometres remaining of the stage, meaning that Porte was outside the safety of the three-kilometre rule that prevents riders from losing time if they have a mechanical or are involved in a crash. Porte’s teammates were on the opposite side of the road when it happened. When they finally made it over to help their stricken leader Clarke had already stepped in, unwittingly costing the Team Sky rider more time.

“By the time the guys had got back to me Simon had already stopped and offered me his wheel. It was a spur of the minute thing,” he explained. “Alberto summed it up last night - all you are thinking about when something like that happens is 'how can I make sure I lose the least time possible'. I didn't even give it a thought that it might be breaking the rules. Everything was happening so quickly and I was just acting on adrenaline.”_


----------



## Roscoe (20 May 2015)

ahhh, that'll be me not having read all the relevant info then.


----------



## totallyfixed (20 May 2015)

As seen on British Eurosport today, rules are applied when it suits. I doubt we have heard the end of this.


----------



## tug benson (20 May 2015)

Looks like the Peloton is splitting, Saxo and BMC hammering it


----------



## w00hoo_kent (20 May 2015)

rich p said:


> _The incident happened with just over four kilometres remaining of the stage, meaning that Porte was outside the safety of the three-kilometre rule that prevents riders from losing time if they have a mechanical or are involved in a crash._


Front wheel? Sagan would have just wheelie'd it for a kilometre and then claimed 'time'. :-)

We've seen time and time again that rules aren't there to be strictly adhered to. There's no way this means the rest of the event will be done to the letter.


----------



## rich p (20 May 2015)

totallyfixed said:


> As seen on British Eurosport today, rules are applied when it suits. I doubt we have heard the end of this.


Well, there's no appeal and Porte seems to have accepted it.


----------



## smutchin (20 May 2015)

Astana rider dropped by breakaway group shock


----------



## tug benson (20 May 2015)

Uran crashes


----------



## HF2300 (20 May 2015)

Another breakaway that's not going to get caught, and is full of riders I nearly picked in the punditry (Intxausti, Hesjedal, Kruiswijk)


----------



## rich p (20 May 2015)

Filthy weather.
Uran hits the deck too.


----------



## Crackle (20 May 2015)

They're not going to catch this are they.


----------



## rich p (20 May 2015)

Crackle said:


> They're not going to catch this are they.


Nope!


----------



## Crackle (20 May 2015)

rich p said:


> Nope!


Gonna be a sweet win for Zakarin


----------



## rich p (20 May 2015)

Crackle said:


> Gonna be a sweet win for Zakarin


Ouch!
Is he riding a Cube?


----------



## smutchin (20 May 2015)

Katusha ride Canyons, don't they?


----------



## tug benson (20 May 2015)

Bertie goes...for some reason


----------



## rich p (20 May 2015)

smutchin said:


> Katusha ride Canyons, don't they?


Zakarin, saccharine, sugar cube. Sorry Smutch!


----------



## smutchin (20 May 2015)

Would you like your coat, rich?


----------



## HF2300 (20 May 2015)

rich p said:


> Zakarin, saccharine, sugar cube. Sorry Smutch!



Good to see you're on form, Rich.


----------



## rich p (20 May 2015)

HF2300 said:


> Good to see you're on form, Rich.


Still can't pick a winner though!
p.s. I blame @Crackle for starting it!


----------



## Crackle (21 May 2015)

rich p said:


> Still can't pick a winner though!
> p.s. I blame @Crackle for starting it!



Yeah but you got it, whereas it parted Smutch's syrup.

Has the race started yet or must we do more punnery?


----------



## Crackle (21 May 2015)

Does this Giro mark the return to form of Betancur. He's making a strong case for Le Tour so far. Although no one might be able to find him come July.


----------



## rich p (21 May 2015)

It's hard to say - he's only aiming for stage wins so can sit back on stages he isn't targeting but it's not certain that he'd be able to sustain a GC challenge for 3 weeks.


----------



## rich p (21 May 2015)

He looks like he's laid off the enchiladas though


----------



## Crackle (21 May 2015)

Another excellent insight from the Secret Pro

http://cyclingtips.com.au/2015/05/the-secret-pro-aru-vs-henderson-the-giro-and-more/


----------



## dragon72 (21 May 2015)

rich p said:


> Zakarin, saccharine, sugar cube. Sorry Smutch!


I thought it might end in a molass sprint


----------



## rich p (21 May 2015)

dragon72 said:


> I thought it might end in a molass sprint


That's suitably excruciating but I won't give it a 'like', as part 'a me thinks it's too contrived


----------



## tug benson (21 May 2015)

and the crashes come when the rain comes


----------



## tug benson (21 May 2015)

Crazy descent there


----------



## smutchin (21 May 2015)

rich p said:


> That's suitably excruciating but I won't give it a 'like', as part 'a me thinks it's too contrived



At least it's unsubtle enough for me to be able to recognise it as a pun.


----------



## smutchin (21 May 2015)

Just me or did everyone else find Kangert's late attack and Tiralongo's finishing burst slightly depressing? Oh well, at least the stage ended with no dopers in the top places...


----------



## rich p (21 May 2015)

smutchin said:


> Just me or did everyone else find Kangert's late attack and Tiralongo's finishing burst slightly depressing? Oh well, at least the stage ended with no dopers in the top places...


Tiralongo especially


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (21 May 2015)

smutchin said:


> Just me or did everyone else find Kangert's late attack and Tiralongo's finishing burst slightly depressing? Oh well, at least the stage ended with no dopers in the top places...



TBH I stopped watching a few stages ago, doping twats.


----------



## iLB (21 May 2015)




----------



## Flying_Monkey (21 May 2015)

Contador is looking increasingly unbeatable in this one. And I rather suspect that he was playing up the 'injury' the other day to fool his rivals.


----------



## Crackle (21 May 2015)

Where did Porte finish today, I can't find it reported anywhere yet?

Aru is looking increasingly vulnerable, I can see Landa and Cataldo both finishing higher and so long as Uran stays within two minutes he too could pass Aru by.

Something else that wasn't commented on amidst the obvious clamour of Porte's mistake, was his inability to hold the wheel on the chase back.


----------



## Crackle (21 May 2015)

Ah found it, Porte 3 seconds back on Contador.


----------



## User169 (21 May 2015)

iLB said:


>



Didn't realize Ed Miliband was racing this year.


----------



## Dogtrousers (21 May 2015)

Crackle said:


> Where did Porte finish today, I can't find it reported anywhere yet?
> 
> Aru is looking increasingly vulnerable, I can see Landa and Cataldo both finishing higher and so long as Uran stays within two minutes he too could pass Aru by.
> 
> Something else that wasn't commented on amidst the obvious clamour of Porte's mistake, was his inability to hold the wheel on the chase back.


12th @ 6 seconds with Uran http://www.gazzetta.it/Giroditalia/2015/en/stage/12/standings/?lang=en&t=12


----------



## Sam Cycling (21 May 2015)

zimzum42 said:


> I think one thing we can be 100% sure of is that if it were two Italians on opposing teams who had done this they wouldn't have been penalised, they would have been lauded across the land...



I think not one ita


zimzum42 said:


> I think one thing we can be 100% sure of is that if it were two Italians on opposing teams who had done this they wouldn't have been penalised, they would have been lauded across the land...



I think one italian don't stop to give a wheel to another italian rider from different team


----------



## HF2300 (22 May 2015)

Can't believe the peloton / BMC seemed to come close to blowing it third time in a row yesterday.

Be interesting today - supposedly headwinds / crosswinds / showers predicted, the breakaway has done well this week, and the sprint teams need to call a truce. I've picked a sprint, but will Bardiani strike again?


----------



## Shadow (22 May 2015)

I do not remember a stage like todays before. I know that is saying little as my memory is appalling but could someone please give me a description without using the words board, pancake or iron. My 2km ride home from work has more ascending than todays entire stage!


----------



## The Couch (22 May 2015)

Shadow said:


> I do not remember a stage like todays before. I know that is saying little as my memory is appalling but could someone please give me a description without using the words board, pancake or iron. My 2km ride home from work has more ascending than todays entire stage!


Are they doing a stage in Holland today?


----------



## rich p (22 May 2015)

Shadow said:


> I do not remember a stage like todays before. I know that is saying little as my memory is appalling but could someone please give me a description without using the words board, pancake or iron. My 2km ride home from work has more ascending than todays entire stage!


I think you're exaggerating, there's clearly a speed bump in Vicenza.


----------



## HF2300 (22 May 2015)

rich p said:


> I think you're exaggerating, there's clearly a speed bump in Vicenza.



No, that's just a bad bit of tarmac.


----------



## mjr (22 May 2015)

Shadow said:


> could someone please give me a description without using the words board, pancake or iron


Fenland-like.


----------



## HF2300 (22 May 2015)

Shadow said:


> ...could someone please give me a description without using the words board, pancake or iron.



Flat


----------



## tug benson (22 May 2015)

Shadow said:


> I do not remember a stage like todays before. I know that is saying little as my memory is appalling but could someone please give me a description without using the words board, pancake or iron.


flatter than a witches tit


----------



## HF2300 (22 May 2015)

Eurosport just showed an altimetry graph of the course covered so far. Wins the prize for utterly pointless graphics.


----------



## smutchin (22 May 2015)

I wonder if the riders feel about today's stage the same way I feel when I discover the route of the audax I've entered goes round Romney bloody Marsh again.


----------



## HF2300 (22 May 2015)

tug benson said:


> flatter than a witches tit



I know some very buxom witches.


----------



## rich p (22 May 2015)

smutchin said:


> I wonder if the riders feel about today's stage the same way I feel when I discover the route of the audax I've entered goes round Romney bloody Marsh again.


I once did a 4 lap marathon on Romney Marsh in the vain hope that I'd get a PB on the flattest of flat routes. Boredom won the day.


----------



## HF2300 (22 May 2015)

I can't tell whether the bad picture and blobs on the screen is due to the rain or the dodgy internet feed I'm watching on.


----------



## Shadow (22 May 2015)

HF2300 said:


> I can't tell whether the bad picture and blobs on the screen is due to the rain or the dodgy internet feed I'm watching on.


..or the lumpy terrain the moto boys are travelling along..


----------



## HF2300 (22 May 2015)

Shadow said:


> ..or the lumpy terrain ..



Not according to the stage profile...


----------



## tug benson (22 May 2015)

Big crash


----------



## HF2300 (22 May 2015)

Outside 3k as well.

Close finish!


----------



## HF2300 (22 May 2015)

Hatch calling a 40 secs loss for Contador, and possibly 2 mins for Porte


----------



## HF2300 (22 May 2015)

Lot of interference from Modolo on Nizzolo there


----------



## tug benson (22 May 2015)

Surely dirty bertie didn't lose that much time?


----------



## dragon72 (22 May 2015)

Just how many "bad days" is Porte going to suffer in this Giro?


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (22 May 2015)

Never mind, he's got a nice caravan to go back to


----------



## Crackle (22 May 2015)

I suspect not many more.


----------



## biking_fox (22 May 2015)

CN reporting Aru in pink! Not just Porte's bad day.


----------



## smutchin (22 May 2015)

biking_fox said:


> CN reporting Aru in pink! Not just Porte's bad day.



Contador didn't lose much time though - he'll easily take it back with interest in the TT.


----------



## Hont (22 May 2015)

tug benson said:


> Surely dirty bertie didn't lose that much time?


He was not on his own bike when he crossed the line, so the transducer info will have been wrong. I'm sure they'll correct it later.

There looked to be splits in the peloton, so Contador might have lost less than first thought.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (22 May 2015)

Hont said:


> He was not on his own bike when he crossed the line, so the transducer info will have been wrong. I'm sure they'll correct it later.



Did Simon Clarke hand over his bike to Dirty Bertie?


----------



## Bobby Mhor (22 May 2015)

Marmion said:


> Never mind, he's got a nice caravan to go back to


Eh..no


----------



## Dogtrousers (22 May 2015)

Am I making this up? I have a vague memory of the TdF and Bertie being caught in/behind a crash _*outside*_ the 3km limit, chasing back, and his rival (Schleck?) also crashing but _*inside *_the 3km limit, and Bertie finishing ahead of him but also losing time to him. IIRC Lots of head scratching about the rules then. Or perhaps I'm making it all up.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (22 May 2015)

Enquiry to be held after Contador finishes on borrowed bike


----------



## Flying_Monkey (22 May 2015)

Porte is out of this now, and it's at least partly bad road tactics by Sky - how many times do we hear the commentators going on about the need to the team leaders to be up at the front so that they don't get caught behind crashes or miss breaks? Contador almost made as bad a mistake, but actually this is going to benefit him. He didn't want to be in pink, and now he can 'relax' (in relative terms!) as Aru an Astana work out what to do and whether and how they can defend this tiny lead.


----------



## HF2300 (22 May 2015)

Well, the crash was pretty close to the front, and I guess at that stage you've got the choice of be a little down and risk a crash, or be right up the front, get tangled with the sprint leadouts and risk a crash. Having said that, I only half paid attention to Giro Extra but did I hear correctly that Porte was stuck without someone to donate a bike again?


----------



## simo105 (22 May 2015)

HF2300 said:


> Well, the crash was pretty close to the front, and I guess at that stage you've got the choice of be a little down and risk a crash, or be right up the front, get tangled with the sprint leadouts and risk a crash. Having said that, I only half paid attention to Giro Extra but did I hear correctly that Porte was stuck without someone to donate a bike again?


It looked that way and im sure one of the sky riders just carried on without helping!


----------



## simo105 (22 May 2015)

Looking at the video on youtube as the helicopter pans out i counted 4 sky riders having problems with there bikes so even if they could of swapped he wouldnt of got far


----------



## smutchin (22 May 2015)

It looked to me like Porte actually avoided the initial crash but was taken out by an Astana rider as he negotiated his way round the fallen bodies. Not at all suspicious, eh?


----------



## simo105 (22 May 2015)

Look like astana guy give porte a shunt to the left causing him to go down


----------



## MikeW-71 (22 May 2015)

That's properly torn it for Porte. I know he's supposed to be good in the TT, but can he get 4mins back on it? Not looking good.


----------



## dragon72 (22 May 2015)

simo105 said:


> It looked that way and im sure one of the sky riders just carried on without helping!


one can hardly blame Viviani for wanting to carry on


----------



## simo105 (22 May 2015)

I belive viviani was futher in front so would have even seen porte fall down. Porte had three riders nearby before the crash. Also the sky rider i was on about came around the crash on the left (grass)


----------



## Crackle (22 May 2015)

This seems to cover the crash section. 41 seconds you can see one of the Sky riders, Porte maybe, veer right which causes the 2nd collision. I think the only Sky rider in front was Viviani and then possibly Konig was the first back up from the crash, you can see him checking back waiting for Porte


----------



## HF2300 (22 May 2015)

Watching the slo-mo replay I see two Sky riders veering right to avoid the first crash, and one going on to the grass verge to the left. The second of the two who veer right hits an Astana and the two Sky and the Astana go down, so I guess one of the Sky riders is Porte. Viviani was well up the front and probably didn't see. The third Sky rider stops on the verge under the tree, so it looks as though at that point there was a spare bike available, but he may then have carried on as he doesn't seem to be standing by the road in subsequent shots - at 1:18 there's a Sky rider disappearing out of shot in front of the Astana team car.

Or we could be over-analysing it.


----------



## Stonechat (22 May 2015)

Sounds like both Contador and Porte will be carrying minor injuries , definitely not ideal for TT bikes


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## rich p (22 May 2015)

Any storm in a Porte.


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## beastie (22 May 2015)

rich p said:


> Any storm in a Porte.


Now that actually made me laugh!


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## Dogtrousers (22 May 2015)

http://velonews.competitor.com/2015/05/news/richie-portes-giro-di-disaster_371249

_At the bus, he looked at his white time trial bike that had been brought out for his warm down ahead of Saturday’s 59.4-kilometer stage. What he said next to the mechanic indicated that this Giro d’Italia might be another missed grand tour opportunity for the 30-year-old.

“I’m not doing any pedaling,” Porte said. “My knee’s f—ked.”_


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## Crackle (23 May 2015)

What do you think: Winning time 1:17? Less?


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## smutchin (23 May 2015)

Crackle said:


> What do you think: Winning time 1:17? Less?



Kiryienka's time is going to be hard to beat. I must admit picking him in the predictor was a bit of a stab in the dark but he has looked in great form the last few days. Sky really ought to let him have a dig as team leader one day. 

I expect Contador to go faster though. He looks deadly at the moment, injuries or not. 

Cataldo might well be motivated to put in a good one today as well. 

Porte's shape on his bike looks terrible to me but as I write this he's just about to reach the first time check so we'll see...


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## Crackle (23 May 2015)

smutchin said:


> Porte's shape on his bike looks terrible to me but as I write this he's just about to reach the first time check so we'll see...


Spot on on Porte. He's not in it headwise anymore. Think he'll abandon and save himself for the tour?


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## smutchin (23 May 2015)

Surely the commissaires need to have a word with Finetto about drafting?


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## smutchin (23 May 2015)

Tbh, I can't really tell what's going on. I'm in the pub watching on my phone with no sound.

#firstworldproblems


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## Pro Tour Punditry (23 May 2015)

Watching long TTs, like watching short TTs only the boredom lasts longer...


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## smutchin (23 May 2015)

The contrast in style between Uran and Porte speaks volumes about their respective physical and mental state...


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## smutchin (23 May 2015)

Marmion said:


> Watching long TTs, like watching short TTs only the boredom lasts longer...



But Aru has just set off on what is sure to be The Time Trial Of His Life. What's not to love about that?


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## Crackle (23 May 2015)

They just mentioned Menchov who Liggett could never mention without adding 'the silent assassin' after.


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## rich p (23 May 2015)

Does it ever stop raining in N Italy!!!!!


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## rich p (23 May 2015)

Crackle said:


> They just mentioned Menchov who Liggett could never mention without adding 'the silent assassin' after.


Did he never say, 'the silent drug-taking assassin just like my best mate, Lance'?


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## smutchin (23 May 2015)

smutchin said:


> The contrast in style between Uran and Porte speaks volumes about their respective physical and mental state...



...though the time splits prove that looks aren't everything!


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## Crackle (23 May 2015)

Some speculation that these slower times could be due to wind changes.


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## smutchin (23 May 2015)

I'll reserve judgment until I've seen Contador's time.


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## Dayvo (23 May 2015)

rich p said:


> Did he never say, 'the silent drug-taking assassin just like my best mate, Lance'?



How come you've got Contador in your fantasy team? Thought you were DEAD AGAINST drug dealers/meat eaters!


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## Crackle (23 May 2015)

Landa plummeting


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## iLB (23 May 2015)

Meanwhile England finally take another wicket.


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## Dayvo (23 May 2015)

Crackle said:


> Landa plummeting



Yeah, like Summer Plomb.


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## iLB (23 May 2015)

Might this be the last time RP gets a shot at a "grandy"?


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## smutchin (23 May 2015)

LL Sanchez! FFS!


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## tug benson (23 May 2015)

well Bertie now has this all wrapped up


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## HF2300 (23 May 2015)

smutchin said:


> Reassuringly, LL Sanchez doesn't look anything like the rider he once was.





smutchin said:


> LL Sanchez! FFS!



Sorry, but you brought it on yourself...


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## smutchin (23 May 2015)

HF2300 said:


> Sorry, but you brought it on yourself...



Yup, I should have known those words would come back to haunt me. 

Still, good win for Kiryienka, very pleased for him.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (23 May 2015)

LL Doping Twat.


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## rich p (23 May 2015)

It's sure getting harder to take an interest in this race now. Not because of Porte but the lack of credible opposition to Bertie and the overall lack of credibility. LLS FFS


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## screenman (23 May 2015)

What race?


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## Pro Tour Punditry (23 May 2015)

I am hoping that Cookson is sitting down with a shedload of anti-doping people and planning on how to better target and detect these doping twats.


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## Crackle (23 May 2015)

Sanchez is a tt specialist with some climbing ability. 2nd is a surprise but a good result isn't?


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## iLB (23 May 2015)

LL COOL J ...






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## smutchin (23 May 2015)

Crackle said:


> Sanchez is a tt specialist with some climbing ability. 2nd is a surprise but a good result isn't?



Not so much surprise, more disappointment.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (23 May 2015)

Crackle said:


> Sanchez is a tt specialist with some climbing ability. 2nd is a surprise but a good result isn't?


You must be the last of the optimists crax.


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## Stonechat (23 May 2015)

Marmion said:


> You must be the last of the optimists crax.


Can't see RP getting another chance


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## Crackle (23 May 2015)

Marmion said:


> You must be the last of the optimists crax.


Perhaps, I'm just not wishing for this Giro to take me one step backwards but I fear it is.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (23 May 2015)

Crackle said:


> Perhaps, I'm just not wishing for this Giro to take me one step backwards but I fear it is.



My witchfinder twitchiness, which had become a bit less required over the past couple of years (not sure if rightly or wrongly), is now working on overload.

So far this season stinks.

edit - not all the season in terms of wins and effort, but the past few races have píssed me off


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## Crackle (23 May 2015)

Porte confirms his knee and hip from yesterdays crash were bothering him and is contemplating quitting

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/raci...lia-after-massively-disappointing-week-173370


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## Pro Tour Punditry (23 May 2015)

Crackle said:


> Porte confirms his knee and hip from yesterdays crash were bothering him and is contemplating quitting
> 
> http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/raci...lia-after-massively-disappointing-week-173370



If he's "contemplating" then it's either a done deal or he's got someone hired one of his aussie mates to take out the rest of the peloton


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## iLB (23 May 2015)

Porte out and Kwiatkowski in for sky come the end of the season.

Porte off to join his mates at Orica.


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## 400bhp (23 May 2015)

iLB said:


> Might this be the last time RP gets a shot at a "grandy"?



Jut checked to confirm but his best Grande Tour was his first in 2010 - 7th. The only time he was in the top 10.

He clearly isn't a 3 week rider. Well, he is just not good enough to win a GT, unless he concentrated on the Vuelta and nothing else.


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## Crackle (23 May 2015)

iLB said:


> Porte out and Kwiatkowski in for sky come the end of the season.
> 
> Porte off to join his mates at Orica.


And Kiriyienka to become part of S.P.E.C.T.R.E


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## 400bhp (23 May 2015)

rich p said:


> . LLS FFS



But he is a good TT'er., so I don't see it as a great surprise, given none of the big hitting TT'ers are in it.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (23 May 2015)

400bhp said:


> But he is a good TT'er., so I don't see it as a great surprise, given none of the big hitting TT'ers are in it.



You and @Crackle are now both nominated as "Optimist of the Year"



...which also includes automatic entry to "FFS wake up and get real" award


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## smutchin (23 May 2015)

400bhp said:


> But he is a good TT'er., so I don't see it as a great surprise, given none of the big hitting TT'ers are in it.



He was dropped by his team in 2013 for hanging around with unscrupulous doctors, then spent last season languishing in the lower leagues until his old mate Vino took pity on him and found a place for him in the world's dodgiest cycling team since the posties. 

I'm not sure it's cause for celebration if he's still as good as he was a few years ago.


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## rich p (24 May 2015)

It's a futile speculation to wonder argue whether this Giro is clean, or a particular rider is dirty, unless some realistic dirt is found out, but the history of the sport, and the way this race has panned out makes this GIRO stink as far as I'm concerned.


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## roadrash (24 May 2015)

I can smell the stink from the giro , all the way over in wigan, no- one will convince me this is a clean race.


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## smutchin (24 May 2015)

I'm still not totally convinced by the evidence of the racing, but on balance of probabilities, the slightly fishy aroma coming from the race is unlikely to be because someone left an out of date jar of Shippams on the Astana team bus.


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## Dayvo (24 May 2015)

Stonechat said:


> Can't see RP getting another chance



Yeah, he'll be back with another dodgy team; Summer Nobbers or Summer Shite or something like that.

They might even make an appearance at this year's TdeF.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (24 May 2015)

Current situation in the race, 2 known dopers in small lead group of 3


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## iLB (24 May 2015)

Marmion said:


> Current situation in the race, 2 known dopers in small lead group of 3



Zak and?


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## Pro Tour Punditry (24 May 2015)

iLB said:


> Zak and?


Visconti.

And I see they have now been joined by a 3rd doper, Paulinho.


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## iLB (24 May 2015)

Tweets suggesting that Astana will rip it apart on the penultimate climb,


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## Crackle (24 May 2015)

What do we know about Amador. Not a lot on my part, apart from the fact he was mugged in 2010 in Colombia and had his team bike nicked and was left in a bad way. He's snuck up on the GC in this one, previous best GT was 30th at the Vuelta last year. Apart from that, I know nothing?


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## rich p (24 May 2015)

I seem to recall that he did some pretty outstanding rides at the Giro a few years back but it's only a vague memory.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (24 May 2015)

Crackle said:


> What do we know about Amador. Not a lot on my part, apart from the fact he was mugged in 2010 in Colombia and had his team bike nicked and was left in a bad way. He's snuck up on the GC in this one, previous best GT was 30th at the Vuelta last year. Apart from that, I know nothing?


I picked him in punditry today. That's about as much as I know about him.


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## rich p (24 May 2015)

Just checked and he won stage 14 in the 2012 Giro


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## Pro Tour Punditry (24 May 2015)

Why are the commentators not questioning the ease which Astana are riding - perfect opportunity what with it being the same finishing location as Pantani's failed "health test"


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## Dayvo (24 May 2015)

Marmion said:


> Why are the commentators not questioning the ease which Astana are riding - perfect opportunity what with it being the same finishing location as Pantani's failed "health test"



Maybe they're going _downhill_! Gravity can't be injected.


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## rich p (24 May 2015)

Marmion said:


> Why are the commentators not questioning the ease which Astana are riding - perfect opportunity what with it being the same finishing location as Pantani's failed "health test"


Probably not a great career move to accuse them on live TV without any evidence.
I assumed it was Robbie Hatch's reference to how well the old Tiralongo was going every day, was a veiled reference.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (24 May 2015)

Some of them have even taken a newspaper to read on the descent, that's taking the píss


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## Pro Tour Punditry (24 May 2015)

rich p said:


> Probably not a great career move to accuse them on live TV without any evidence.
> I assumed it was Robbie Hatch's reference to how well the old Tiralongo was going every day, was a veiled reference.



Poor excuse, the "no evidence" one. They have, in my mind, a duty to challenge rather than just sit in wonder. That's Liggett's and Sherwen's job.


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## rich p (24 May 2015)

Marmion said:


> Poor excuse, the "no evidence" one. They have, in my mind, a duty to challenge rather than just sit in wonder. That's Liggett's and Sherwen's job.


Hmmm, Let's see how much Greg Henderson gets done for!


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## rich p (24 May 2015)

Is that Armstrong in white behind the USP train?


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## iLB (24 May 2015)

rich p said:


> Is that Armstrong in white behind the USP train?



Astana out skying Sky.


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## smutchin (24 May 2015)

Betancur still in the lead group on the final climb? Blimey.


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## rich p (24 May 2015)

I wish he'd stop banging on about Pantani


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## rich p (24 May 2015)

smutchin said:


> Betancur still in the lead group on the final climb? Blimey.


Is he? Didn't he fall off?


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## rich p (24 May 2015)

You're right! It was Atapuma - easy mistake to make


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## Pro Tour Punditry (24 May 2015)

I wonder if there is a Betsy Tiralongo sitting at home in a rage...


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## smutchin (24 May 2015)

Oh well, Betancur didn't last too long after I put the curse on him... 

Konig is looking great though, isn't he?


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## Crackle (24 May 2015)

Tension building.....


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## smutchin (24 May 2015)

rich p said:


> You're right! It was Atapuma - easy mistake to make



The BMC man in the lead group was Caruso, I think.


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## Bobby Mhor (24 May 2015)

Does Konig inherit the motor home?
if he stays higher in the GC...


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## rich p (24 May 2015)

Landa isn't even puffing


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## robertob (24 May 2015)

Giro done and dusted? I think so. Let's hand the thing over to Contador, he looks the strongest.. ah well, not required, he already wears the pink jersey! Seems Aru runs out of vitamins...maybe one of his Astana mates has something left over though... otherwise it's over. And we have still a week to go?!


----------



## Crackle (24 May 2015)

To paraphrase Stingray, anything can happen in the next 7 days but if it doesn't, Beefy Bert's got it. I do want to see if Landa continues to outperform everything he's ever done before or if in fact his batteries die or even if he continues pressing one day and leaves Aru far behind destroying Astana's podium hopes, as it looked like he might today.


----------



## rich p (24 May 2015)

Landa and Nieve we're very similar abilities at Euskaltel but seem worlds apart since one went to Sky and the other to the dark side. It could of course be entirely innocent.


----------



## robertob (24 May 2015)

Of course, you're right. Anything can happen. Crash, puncture whatever. But Aru looks tired, couldn't even hold the wheel of his team mate, and lost some seconds to Contador again. Normally, there shouldn't be enough time for him to recover to a level that allows him to attack Contador in a way that would see him taking minutes off Contador. Contador in turn can sit and wait. He has nothing really to do now accept defending the jersey. The others have to attack him. Landa, yes maybe, he's sure to attack at some point, I imagine. But hard to see him taking four minutes something off Contador in the last week?!

However one blood transfusion later, and the world may look different for Aru... sorry, now I'm cynical.


----------



## 400bhp (24 May 2015)

I think, given Contador is doing the TDF, he'll just sandbag for the rest of the race.

This was the first high mountain pass of the Giro and the race is over

Following on from the superb racing in week 1, the lack of competition to Bertie is pish poor. He's in a different league. He must be rubbing his hands that none of the proper contenders decided to bother doing the Giro this year.

Does this add more weight to having a different structure to the world tour, given that in one of cycling's "majors" only one of the top 5 turns up?

Here's looking forward to the TdF.


----------



## smutchin (24 May 2015)

Just had a look at the rest of the results from today's stage. Porte finished 27 minutes after Landa - just four minutes ahead of the gruppetto.

Never mind a private motor home, he'll be lucky if they let him sleep in a kennel tonight.


----------



## themosquitoking (24 May 2015)

400bhp said:


> I think, given Contador is doing the TDF, he'll just sandbag for the rest of the race.
> 
> This was the first high mountain pass of the Giro and the race is over
> 
> ...


The organisers of the TdF must be rubbing their hands at how few of the big names are appearing only at their race in the GT's this year. Unless of course they all fall off again and make the Vuelta the best race of the year like last year.


----------



## Crackle (24 May 2015)

smutchin said:


> Just had a look at the rest of the results from today's stage. Porte finished 27 minutes after Landa - just four minutes ahead of the gruppetto.
> 
> Never mind a private motor home, he'll be lucky if they let him sleep in a kennel tonight.


It could be a clever ploy to put him so far behind no one will chase him when he goes on the break. Or he might be leaving on a jet plane.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (24 May 2015)

rich p said:


> Landa and Nieve we're very similar abilities at Euskaltel but that seen worlds apart since one went to Sky and the other to the dark side. It could of course be entirely innocent.



Landa is doing very well for someone who had cytomegalovirus not very long ago, which led to him "missing training camp"
http://www.cyclingquotes.com/news/landa_absent_from_astana_training_camp/

He seems to have caught up with the training he missed


----------



## rich p (24 May 2015)

400bhp said:


> Does this add more weight to having a different structure to the world tour, given that in one of cycling's "majors" only one of the top 5 turns up?


It's been this way for a while now, hasn't it? It seemed that the new way of thinking was that it wasn't possible to do justice to the TdF after a hard Giro, since Contador failed a few years ago.
If Bertie bucks the trend and does the double (treble with the Vuelta?), it may well lessen the clamour for a change to the format.


----------



## HF2300 (24 May 2015)

Last 15 km was ... interesting.


----------



## HF2300 (24 May 2015)

rich p said:


> Aru needs to place an internet order with Bertie's steak supplier, pronto.



Back in the day riders used to breakfast on huge amounts of steak etc., before modern nutritional science changed things.

Perhaps they'll go back to it.


----------



## iLB (24 May 2015)

Good craic from Oleg https://twitter.com/olegtinkov/status/602596665460133888


----------



## Strathlubnaig (25 May 2015)

I overheard Porte in the pub last night, telling the barman 'actually, I'm more of a Classics man...'


----------



## tug benson (25 May 2015)

Porte out the giro


----------



## Dogtrousers (25 May 2015)

tug benson said:


> Porte out the giro


More: http://www.teamsky.com/teamsky/home/article/53358#9RCy4F487L5DERA6.97


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## smutchin (25 May 2015)

I have a lot of sympathy for Porte, he's been very unlucky and riding the Giro must be tough enough even at 100% fitness, but it does seem he lacks the capacity to deal with adversity that marks out the true champions of the sport.


----------



## rich p (25 May 2015)

smutchin said:


> I have a lot of sympathy for Porte, he's been very unlucky and riding the Giro must be tough enough even at 100% fitness, but it does seem he lacks the capacity to deal with adversity that marks out the true champions of the sport.


I said as much to my son yesterday. He has, as you say, suffered injury and bad luck, but you can't help wondering if, say, Cadel Evans or Contador would have dealt with it better.


----------



## smutchin (25 May 2015)

Clearly Contador _has_ dealt with it better - he may have a tendency to overstate his injuries but I bet that shoulder is still pretty painful.


----------



## Crackle (25 May 2015)

Speculation begins in earnest for the next seasons signings

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/giro-ditalia-transfer-talk-porte-and-uran-key-pieces-in-2016-market

One wonders whether Landa will play the team game or be sure to cement his place as a GT contender or simply do a Cobo and never repeat this form. His recent interviews have sounded less than magnanimous towards Aru.


----------



## Strathlubnaig (25 May 2015)

His transfer value just tanked


----------



## HF2300 (26 May 2015)

Hesjedal going it alone at the mo. Difficult to see him surviving, though - 74 km to go and he's only got 2:32.


----------



## HF2300 (26 May 2015)

Diego Rosa has a spill on a corner. Up and running again though.


----------



## Bobby Mhor (26 May 2015)

HF2300 said:


> Hesjedal going it alone at the mo. Difficult to see him surviving, though - 74 km to go and he's only got 2:32.


According to the elevation graphic earlier, it looked like 70km upwards....
Just stuck leg out like a stabiliser


----------



## HF2300 (26 May 2015)

Contador dropped to the back of the pink jersey group, may have had a puncture, TV didn't see. Basso may have given him a wheel. Getting back up now.


----------



## The Couch (26 May 2015)

Hesjedal is doing his best De Gendt impersonation

Katusha are doing their best Sky (Milan San Remo) impersonation


----------



## tug benson (26 May 2015)

dirty bertie will have to make his team go to work to bring this back together...distanced when he had a wheel change...i think it was a wheel change anyway.


----------



## HF2300 (26 May 2015)

Don't know, looks as thought the MR group was split but it's only 30 seconds. I saw a lot of small splits and echelons on the short flat section, so I wonder if the descent and sidewinds on the flat split it all up. Trying to make sense of it, as it looks like 3 groups led by the KGB, Team Evil and SPECTRE


----------



## tug benson (26 May 2015)

not many saxo riders there


----------



## HF2300 (26 May 2015)

Katusha and Astana groups back together, Contador in sight but might have used riders up catching


----------



## tug benson (26 May 2015)

Astana hammering it now, berties team mate are struggling


----------



## HF2300 (26 May 2015)

Astana / Katusha have put 25 seconds on Contador - 49 sec gap in total.


----------



## tug benson (26 May 2015)

bertie will have to put in some effort in on this climb to get back on


----------



## HF2300 (26 May 2015)

Bertie looks as though he had a nice steak this morning


----------



## HF2300 (26 May 2015)

Astanas actually dropping off, and Aru doesn't look that comfortable


----------



## tug benson (26 May 2015)

Surely he is going in to the red far to early??


----------



## HF2300 (26 May 2015)

Excruciallatingly hard, apparently


----------



## The Couch (26 May 2015)

Landa again looks the stronger of Astana


----------



## HF2300 (26 May 2015)

Konig dropped. Shame. Igor Anton pacing Contador. He needs to watch that non-regulation help


----------



## tug benson (26 May 2015)

Aye Aru doesn't look good here


----------



## Flying_Monkey (26 May 2015)

Thing is that Contador is a great descender and even if he comes over the top a minute or two behind, he will get a lot of that back on the descent. And the final climb is not they kind of slope that will cause any difficulties. In any case, he doesn't look like he's going to lose very much, if anything - in fact he's coming back on Aru & Co.


----------



## HF2300 (26 May 2015)

The Couch said:


> Landa again looks the stronger of Astana



Nearly picked him in the punditry but I couldn't cope with the idea of him doing it again.


----------



## HF2300 (26 May 2015)

That lead group now just 3 at 27 secs, so Bertie's doing it.


----------



## tug benson (26 May 2015)

Take a seat bertie


----------



## Crackle (26 May 2015)

The Landa-borg is going well.


----------



## Flying_Monkey (26 May 2015)

Landa is too strong to be believable, I have to say. He looks like he's sauntering.


----------



## HF2300 (26 May 2015)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Thing is that Contador is a great descender.



Yes, I remember him descending in the TdF last year...


----------



## tug benson (26 May 2015)

Aru will get dropped


----------



## smutchin (26 May 2015)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Thing is that Contador is a great descender



I was wondering about that. Do we know what Aru and Landa are like on the descents?


----------



## tug benson (26 May 2015)

Unleash the Landa


----------



## HF2300 (26 May 2015)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Landa is too strong to be believable, I have to say. He looks like he's sauntering.



But then Kruiswijk doesn't look any worse. Aru realy struggling now


----------



## Flying_Monkey (26 May 2015)

HF2300 said:


> But then Kruiswijk doesn't look any worse. Aru realy struggling now



The difference is that Landa has looked this good every day. Kruijswijk has had good and bad days.


----------



## HF2300 (26 May 2015)

Contador looks as though he's really working now


----------



## tug benson (26 May 2015)

Contador nearly back on


----------



## Flying_Monkey (26 May 2015)

Incredible ride by Contador, though. He's about to catch them.


----------



## Bobby Mhor (26 May 2015)

Bertie looks as if he has a good engine


----------



## Crackle (26 May 2015)

Landa has had to slow for Aru.


----------



## smutchin (26 May 2015)

Blimey, Contador has almost caught the Aru group.


----------



## HF2300 (26 May 2015)

I lost the stream. Did Kruiswijk jump off as Contador caught?


----------



## tug benson (26 May 2015)

bertie goes..


----------



## tug benson (26 May 2015)

Landa goes after him, Aru dropped


----------



## smutchin (26 May 2015)

Catches them, drops them! 

Except Landa...


----------



## Crackle (26 May 2015)

Ooooh, has the Landa-borg been let loose or has he just gone.


----------



## HF2300 (26 May 2015)

Where did Trofimov come from?


----------



## Flying_Monkey (26 May 2015)

Contador and Landa catch Kruijswijk


----------



## HF2300 (26 May 2015)

Landa goes to his bidon for another drop of Vino


----------



## tug benson (26 May 2015)

Aru looks a utter mess now


----------



## tug benson (26 May 2015)

Trofimov attacks Aru


----------



## Flying_Monkey (26 May 2015)

Aru is finished.


----------



## tug benson (26 May 2015)

Aru struggling to hold Ryders wheel


----------



## HF2300 (26 May 2015)

tug benson said:


> Aru struggling failing to hold Ryders wheel


----------



## HF2300 (26 May 2015)

Just realised I have to go right back through this thread and correct my spelling of Kruijswijk's name.


----------



## The Couch (26 May 2015)

Hey the lead-group is looking like the old Tour de France (Ulrich in Pink T-Mobile outfit, Armstrong in yellow, VInokourov in Astana outfit)


----------



## HF2300 (26 May 2015)

The Couch said:


> Hey the lead-group is looking like the old Tour de France (Ulrich in Pink T-Mobile outfit, Armstrong in yellow, VInokourov in Astana outfit)



Don't. Just don't.


----------



## Flying_Monkey (26 May 2015)

Aru recovering a little now. He's stopped losing time at least....


----------



## HF2300 (26 May 2015)

Flying_Monkey said:


> The difference is that Landa has looked this good every day. Kruijswijk has had good and bad days.



Yes, and at least Contador and Kruijswijk have the decency to look as though they're puffing a bit.


----------



## Flying_Monkey (26 May 2015)

Aru is losing more again...


----------



## Bobby Mhor (26 May 2015)

I see the local asylum are on a day out


----------



## tug benson (26 May 2015)

Mental fans


----------



## Flying_Monkey (26 May 2015)

How are Aru's descending skills?


----------



## Flying_Monkey (26 May 2015)

Amador goes past Aru...


----------



## Crackle (26 May 2015)

Flying_Monkey said:


> How are Aru's descending skills?


we're about to find out.


----------



## Flying_Monkey (26 May 2015)

Contador allows Kruijswijk the Cima Coppi, which suggests that he won't allow him the stage.


----------



## HF2300 (26 May 2015)

Flying_Monkey said:


> How are Aru's descending skills?



Thing is, even if they're good, will he stick with the top 3 on the final climb?


----------



## Flying_Monkey (26 May 2015)

Contador climbing like Pantani, now descending like Savoldelli. This is a really tough, fast descent.


----------



## The Couch (26 May 2015)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Contador climbing like Pantani, now descending like Savoldelli. This is a really tough, fast descent.


If Kruijswijk a Dutchmen can follow, he isn't going full blow


----------



## HF2300 (26 May 2015)

Landa not really contributing


----------



## tug benson (26 May 2015)

Aru with a bike change


----------



## HF2300 (26 May 2015)

Wonder if Aru knows that Lotto team car's slipstreaming him


----------



## Flying_Monkey (26 May 2015)

Onto the last climb... will anyone attack?


----------



## The Couch (26 May 2015)

tug benson said:


> Aru with a bike change


Was his engine broke?


----------



## HF2300 (26 May 2015)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Onto the last climb... will anyone attack?



Landa's done no work since the top of the Mortirolo, so he will for sure


----------



## The Couch (26 May 2015)

Yaiks, the expression on the face of Aru doesn't spell much good for the rest of the stage and/or race

EDIT:


----------



## HF2300 (26 May 2015)

Has anyone ever done any tests to see if that crouching on the top tube business really is any more aero?


----------



## HF2300 (26 May 2015)

Contador must be using a lot of energy doing all these stints on the front, surely?

Good lord, Landa's actually come past him.


----------



## Crackle (26 May 2015)

Landa-borg attacks


----------



## Flying_Monkey (26 May 2015)

the attacks start...


----------



## The Couch (26 May 2015)

Crackle said:


> ...
> One wonders whether Landa will play the team game or be sure to cement his place as a GT contender or simply do a Cobo and never repeat this form...


The Cobo comparison now becomes frighteningly realistic


----------



## HF2300 (26 May 2015)

That's rather depressing really.


----------



## Crackle (26 May 2015)

The Couch said:


> The Cobo comparison now becomes frighteningly realistic


Yep, as they say, an unbelievable ride.


----------



## smutchin (26 May 2015)

He could at least have pretended to be out of breath at the finish.


----------



## The Couch (26 May 2015)

I wonder if in the coming stages, Astana is left with 2 men, who will pull for who?


----------



## Crackle (26 May 2015)

The worrying thing is with stage 18 and 19 to come, if Landa is let off the leash and rides like that, he could win, which would be a joke.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (26 May 2015)

Farce.


----------



## HF2300 (26 May 2015)

User14044mountain said:


> Is it Philisan that he is taking? Never seems to help me.



Haliborange.


----------



## Rustybucket (26 May 2015)

I think he's taking the piss....


----------



## totallyfixed (26 May 2015)

HF2300 said:


> Has anyone ever done any tests to see if that crouching on the top tube business really is any more aero?


It is.


----------



## HF2300 (26 May 2015)

Based on empirical testing or gut feel?


----------



## Stockie (26 May 2015)

Hi guys, first ever post on the road racing threads so please excuse my ignorance. Started cycling about 4 yrs ago at the tender age of 52 to initially get fit and absolutely love it. Love watching the pro's and devour any books I can get my hands on. Find your insights about the sport fascinating and very helpful.

One question keeps coming into my head after watching the giro this year and seeing the ridiculous ease that the Astana team and in particulate Landa makes these mountains look.

Why do the commentators not make any comment about how it's possible and the possibility of cheating.


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## themosquitoking (26 May 2015)

Because everyone involved except for us spectators have lots and lots of lawyers.


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## Crackle (26 May 2015)

Stockie said:


> Hi guys, first ever post on the road racing threads so please excuse my ignorance. Started cycling about 4 yrs ago at the tender age of 52 to initially get fit and absolutely love it. Love watching the pro's and devour any books I can get my hands on. Find your insights about the sport fascinating and very helpful.
> 
> One question keeps coming into my head after watching the giro this year and seeing the ridiculous ease that the Astana team and in particulate Landa makes these mountains look.
> 
> Why do the commentators not make any comment about how it's possible and the possibility of cheating.


They occasionally make veiled references and they do refer to previous offences but I presume they have to be careful what they say, plus not everyone wants to hear it.


----------



## Stockie (26 May 2015)

Yes I can appreciate that. But is that not how the likes of Armstrong etc got away with it for so long. 

Must be me being daft.


----------



## HF2300 (27 May 2015)

Unfortunately, as Crackle says, we live in a litigious society. There's already been one incident just before this Giro, where one pro tweeted a comment (which by all accounts was well received in the peloton) about an Astana and was threatened with the lawyers.

Also, unfortunately, many of the commentators are drawn from the ranks of ex-pros and cycling fans and often do not want to acknowledge the possibility of cheating, do not want to raise that particular spectre (or should that be S.P.E.C.T.R.E.) when commentating, used themselves to 'prepare', don't see anything wrong with it, don't want to put the casual audience - who they rely on to sell advertising - off by suggesting the race might not be honest, etc. etc. etc.

Personally I think they'd be doing cycling a service by bringing things out into the open, but I don't see it happening.

Welcome to the forum, by the way. If you're sticking around, you should probably have a go at @Marmion 's Pro Tour Punditry and show your learning by getting it as badly wrong as the rest of us.


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## The Couch (27 May 2015)

It probably has got something to do as well with the fact that as fans of the sport (which commentators should be), they probably have got a feeling that you can't keep bringing up the old stuff (i.e. past doping affairs) if you want to get the sport out of the negative spiral/attention it had/has been getting (a couple of years ago especially). I guess there are probably optimists among the commentators that believe or hope (both work) that racing these days is clean and the current clean riders shouldn't be affected by bringing up what the previous generation(s) of riders were doing time and time again.

But indeed, the legal stuff highlighted above could probably be a bigger part for the commentators.
While the races are being watched by (hondreds of) thousands people, our comments here don't travel very broad, so we should be pretty safe 

If you look into some older posts on here or other cycling commenting (news)sites (or if you just stick around some time), you'll see that the overall feeling is that there are probably much more clean riders around but cheating is probably still happening in the peloton... just on a much more delicate level (e.g. micro-dosing)... but nobody will be/is absolutely sure about if it is happening or the scale of it. We will just have to wait and see if in the coming years, things pop up about riders from today (like has happened in the past)... still it doesn't necessarily ruin the fun/excitement of the sport for us cycling fans, it's just that most of us understand that we do have to look at (some of) these results with a sense of realism/doubt on how clean the performances really are.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (27 May 2015)

Commentators are failing in their role imo; they lack a pair of balls to state "this is all very reminiscent of ...." and/or "remember, "x" has previously served a ban for doping and on the face of it there appears to be some questions needing asked as a result of recent results" or such like.

They did the same in the past and cowered behind the "no proof" coward's defence. Really? What I am seeing is that there is definite proof that something is very much still wrong. So, commentators, MTFU!

edit - and "celebrating" known dopers is a complete joke; they doped, they cheated. Tell everyone they did. They earned fame and fortune on the back of cheating, and mumbling something about "oh well, they all did it, that's not an excuse but "X" was a classy rider from an early age, etc" is an apologists approach. Fecking nobbers.


----------



## HF2300 (27 May 2015)

I also wonder whether the commentators you might expect to be more forthright are tied by the broadcaster's editorial policy.


----------



## w00hoo_kent (27 May 2015)

HF2300 said:


> I also wonder whether the commentators you might expect to be more forthright are tied by the broadcaster's editorial policy.


There will also be the fact that if the pundits in the studio start casting doubt on a team, when their reporters in the field shove a microphone under someones nose they are likely to get stonewalled. Think Fergie and the BBC in football.

Surely if the pundits can see it, the organisers should be seeing it too and trying to work out where they are being taken for chumps?


----------



## smutchin (27 May 2015)

There was an interesting moment on yesterday's commentary when Rob Hatch said something that could almost have been taken as an insinuation, and Sean Kelly suddenly got very cagey - even more umms and errs than usual...

Of course, it would be a bit rich of Sean Kelly to make negative comments about other cyclists doping.


----------



## smutchin (27 May 2015)

w00hoo_kent said:


> Surely if the pundits can see it, the organisers should be seeing it too and trying to work out where they are being taken for chumps?



Team sponsors seem more keen to take action than race organisers. Vini-Fantini* lost its sponsors after Santambrogio and Diluca made a mockery of the race in 2013, forcing the team manager to resign. They came back the following season as Neri Sottoli, but that didn't last too long either thanks to Rabottini getting busted last year.

They've resurfaced again this year as Southeast, and you have to assume the only reason they got an invite to the Giro is that they're an Italian team.


*not to be confused with the current Nippo-Vini Fantini, which is an entirely different team.


----------



## HF2300 (27 May 2015)

It's also the case that the organisers have to work within a system and may be too close to the issue themselves. The sponsors are able to take unilateral action and are increasingly likely to act quickly to distance themselves from anything that might tarnish their image - after all, they're in it to promote themselves in the first place.


----------



## smutchin (27 May 2015)

HF2300 said:


> It's also the case that the organisers have to work within a system



True. Same goes for the UCI - they way Astana are riding in the Giro seems to be sticking their fingers up at Cookson.


----------



## 400bhp (27 May 2015)

I think the implicit buzz word, read between the lines by the commentators is "unbelievable".

There's a very good set of words from someone that said (im paraphrasing) "sport stops being sport and becomes entertainment when doping is prevalent". I think the TV channels don't see a difference.


----------



## Stockie (27 May 2015)

Thanks for all the interesting and knowledgeable insight guys. I think I will have to listen to what the Couch said and not let it ruin my enjoyment of the sport. Now I am no longer a virgin ( so to speak) hopefully I will try and contribute a little more on the forums rather than just reading other peoples comments ha ha.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (27 May 2015)

400bhp said:


> I think the implicit buzz word, read between the lines by the commentators is "unbelievable".



I wonder if you were to turn on the subtitles if it translated as "he's clearly a doping nobber"...


----------



## Hont (28 May 2015)

Stockie said:


> Now I am no longer a virgin ( so to speak)...


Well you're one step ahead if you're suspicious already. Unfortunately the days of clean cyclists winning the majority of Grand Tours (c 2012) seem to have succumbed to the dark science of micro-dosing. We can only hope that the game of leap-frog between dopers and anti-doping will go back in favour of the latter sometime soon.


----------



## Crackle (28 May 2015)

Chavanel in a break. Well that's doomed then.


----------



## Bobby Mhor (28 May 2015)

The break is  11 52 secs  12.30 now


----------



## rich p (28 May 2015)

The Sky's fallen in


----------



## HF2300 (28 May 2015)

You can't keep a bad pun down.


----------



## HF2300 (28 May 2015)

rich p said:


> I hope to buggery that Weening doesn't win as it was between him and Zakarin today.



Seems there's no-one significant (i.e. none of our choices) in the break apart from Gilbert?


----------



## rich p (28 May 2015)

Weening has been dropped at least!


----------



## Hont (28 May 2015)

Landa stuck behind the crash and Saxo-Tinkoff decide it's payback time.


----------



## HF2300 (28 May 2015)

Landa gapped. Shame.


----------



## rich p (28 May 2015)

Hont said:


> Landa stuck behind the crash and Saxo-Tinkoff decide it's payback time.


Oleg will be smirking!


----------



## HF2300 (28 May 2015)

Three minutes taken off the gap to the breakaway already.


----------



## HF2300 (28 May 2015)

See Bertie's off on his own again


----------



## Hont (28 May 2015)

And now Contador drops everyone (easily). Merckx-esque*. Is he going to solo the last 40km?

*with obvious caveats.


----------



## tug benson (28 May 2015)

Unreal from Bertie


----------



## Crackle (28 May 2015)

I'm forever suspicious of Bertie but his racing style and acumen is to be admired


----------



## Hont (28 May 2015)

Car in the gap so Contador has 30 seconds over the Aru group, but the gap to Landa seems to be falling.


----------



## tug benson (28 May 2015)

Landa back with Aru


----------



## Apollonius (28 May 2015)

Yes, you have to admire him (Contador), whatever the reservations regarding his carnivorous habits.


----------



## tug benson (28 May 2015)

Contador can't be thinking long game, he is going to kill himself for Le tour, sure he wants to stick it to Astana but he has a big enough gap without going all out like he is, we still have 2 tough stages


----------



## Hont (28 May 2015)

Aru struggling again.


----------



## tug benson (28 May 2015)

Aru wil struggle with the next 2 stages


----------



## rich p (28 May 2015)

Contador is an attacking rider and he can't seem to change that mentality. I just wish I believed in him


----------



## rich p (28 May 2015)

MInd you, Heysjdal is catching him and he's never been accused of doping....


----------



## Hont (28 May 2015)

Brilliant ride from Hesjedal, bridges to Contador just as they top the climb.


----------



## Hont (28 May 2015)

rich p said:


> MInd you, Heysjdal is catching him and he's never been accused of doping....


I wouldn't say never...

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/hesjedal-admits-to-doping-says-evidence-was-given-to-usada


----------



## rich p (28 May 2015)

Hont said:


> I wouldn't say never...
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/hesjedal-admits-to-doping-says-evidence-was-given-to-usada


Sorry, I was being mischievous!


----------



## HF2300 (28 May 2015)

...and there's the haunted bike from the Vuelta...


----------



## Flying_Monkey (28 May 2015)

HF2300 said:


> ...and there's the haunted bike from the Vuelta...



I've taken an interest in mechanical doping, but that was clearly not an example. Some knowledge of basic cycling physics shows that - and it's pretty easy to replicate yourself.


----------



## HF2300 (28 May 2015)

Flying_Monkey said:


> I've taken an interest in mechanical doping, but that was clearly not an example. Some knowledge of basic cycling physics shows that - and it's pretty easy to replicate yourself.



I was being slightly tongue in cheek. I'm not sure anyone but the most rabid witchfinders really thought that was mechanical doping.

Beginning to look like a good call from @simo105 in the punditry.


----------



## Hont (28 May 2015)

Gilbert descending faster than FIFA's credibility.


----------



## HF2300 (28 May 2015)

Did FIFA have any credibility even before the latest revelations?


----------



## Crackle (28 May 2015)

The Landa-borg is either human or conserving his batteries.


----------



## HF2300 (28 May 2015)

Or he's had a ticking off for abandoning / attacking Aru.


----------



## Hont (28 May 2015)

No lack of panache from Gilbert. Even without the Contador fireworks that was a stage worth watching.


----------



## HF2300 (28 May 2015)

Great win by Gilbert


----------



## Dayvo (28 May 2015)

rich p said:


> Contador is an attacking rider and he can't seem to change that mentality. I just wish I believed in him



He's in your fantasy team: you do believe in him! 

I do.


----------



## rich p (28 May 2015)

Dayvo said:


> He's in your fantasy team: you do believe in him!
> 
> I do.


I think you're confusing picking the bloke who's going to score most points with moral rectitude


----------



## 400bhp (28 May 2015)

Crackle said:


> I'm forever suspicious of Bertie but his racing style and acumen is to be admired



I understand but perhaps naiavely I just think he's probably the most complete rider of his generation. There's noone better tactically.

i really enjoyed today how he put one over on astana, like feck you, attack me when I have a puncture and I will return the compliment in spades.

hesjedal is a loon. I love his attitude & racing for a pretty low overall gc position. Reckon he will go long er tomorrow.


----------



## 400bhp (28 May 2015)

Observation. I watched the mortirolo stage highlights for the first time today. I personally didn't see too much wrong with landa. Bertie was fecked after pulling back a minute from his puncture. kruijswik was mullered from doing the pacemaking, landa just waited fir his moment. Lets not forget contador is streets agead of anyone. landa is the best of a fairly average bunch but still 5 mins down on contador.


----------



## 400bhp (28 May 2015)

Oh and it was great to see them suffering on the mortirolo. Having turned myself inside out on that climb last september (on a bloody 25 sporcket cassette too, not from choice, which meant I was out of the saddle all the way) I had a wry smile at aru guerning worse than tommy v.


----------



## rich p (28 May 2015)

There's rumours out there that Sky/Brailsford are thinking of signing Landa as he's out of contract this year. Played down by DB.
Le's hope they do some serious due diligence - more than they did on Michael Barry, for instance.


----------



## Crackle (28 May 2015)

400bhp said:


> Observation. I watched the mortirolo stage highlights for the first time today. I personally didn't see too much wrong with landa. Bertie was fecked after pulling back a minute from his puncture. kruijswik was mullered from doing the pacemaking, landa just waited fir his moment. Lets not forget contador is streets agead of anyone. landa is the best of a fairly average bunch but still 5 mins down on contador.


Perhaps but he's looked strong from day one and his Palmares don't reflect 2nd in a GT, plus he hardly looks like he's trying which I know is not conclusive but, like you say, not a super strong field, he is still young, has showed promise in the past but, being out of contract and putting in a performance like this rings alarm bells, especially as he's riding for Astana. I'd like to see how he goes over the next two stages.


----------



## 400bhp (28 May 2015)

rich p said:


> There's rumours out there that Sky/Brailsford are thinking of signing Landa as he's out of contract this year. Played down by DB.
> Le's hope they do some serious due diligence - more than they did on Michael Barry, for instance.


So what's landas palmares? Surely more than 7th or whatever it was at one of the build up races this year?

Is he a bit froome like for instance? Stage win in the vuelta showed he had massive ootential but before that not much really? Trying to be glass half full here.


----------



## 400bhp (28 May 2015)

Crackle said:


> Perhaps but he's looked strong from day one and his Palmares don't reflect 2nd in a GT, plus he hardly looks like he's trying which I know is not conclusive but, like you say, not a super strong field, he is still young, has showed promise in the past but, being out of contract and putting in a performance like this rings alarm bells, especially as he's riding for Astana. I'd like to see how he goes over the next two stages.


The out of contract one Is the one that grates, nothing to lose? I hate this doping talk


----------



## rich p (28 May 2015)

400bhp said:


> So what's landas palmares? Surely more than 7th or whatever it was at one of the build up races this year?
> 
> Is he a bit froome like for instance? Stage win in the vuelta showed he had massive ootential but before that not much really? Trying to be glass half full here.


lt's all speculative but if you look at his Giro results for last year, he's made a stellar leap
http://www.procyclingstats.com/rider.php?id=140293&season=2014


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (28 May 2015)

rich p said:


> ll speculative but if you look at his Gro results for last year, he's made a stellar leap
> http://www.procyclingstats.com/rider.php?id=140293&season=2014


A similar trajectory as Chris Horner and no where near as old - his future is bright


----------



## 400bhp (28 May 2015)

[QUOTE"rich p, post: 3717746, member: 500"]lt's all speculative but if you look at his Giro results for last year, he's made a stellar leap
http://www.procyclingstats.com/rider.php?id=140293&season=2014[/QUOTE]
Well, he has had some good stage wins, notably on stage 4 mountain finish in giro trentino last year.

well, im gonna give him the benefit if the doubt.

now, what astana should have done is hide him until the vuelta. Could have won that, would then get interesting,


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (28 May 2015)

400bhp said:


> now, what astana should have done...


...is stop doping


----------



## rich p (28 May 2015)

I've been equally, if not more, surprised at the ageing Tiralongo's form. He's either out there winning stages or leading the train out halfway up a mountain.
Lest we forget, Kreuziger is due up before the beak sometime soon. His form in this race has been noticeably more believable in this race, than the last time he almost outrode Bertie (can't recall which G it was). Getting caught outright or playing about with your BP, just before a visit to CAS would be awfully bad form.


----------



## 400bhp (28 May 2015)

richp said:


> I've been equally, if not more, surprised at the ageing Tiralongo's form. He's either out there winning stages or leading the train out halfway up a mountain.
> Lest we forget, Kreuziger is due up before the beak sometime soon. His form in this race has been noticeably more believable in this race, than the last time he almost outrode Bertie (can't recall which G it was). Getting caught outright or playing about with your BP, just before a visit to CAS would be awfully bad form.


Absolutely!! (it was the 2013 tdf btw).


----------



## smutchin (28 May 2015)

I'm with @400bhp - the evidence from what we're seeing is inconclusive. It is a relatively weak field and Landa has shown enough promise in the past to give his performance a veneer of credibility. 

However...

The thing that really niggles is the fact that *every day* so far the race has finished well ahead of the fastest schedule - which is something we haven't seen for a few years. Even in 2012, Sky weren't tearing it up that much, were they? (Average speed of 2012 Tour was 1.6kmh slower than 2005, which is a significant time difference over 3000km.)

Also: stage 17 of the 2011 Vuelta, Froome looked half dead at the finish. Would like to see more visible signs of what racing like this is doing to Landa. Even Bertie showed signs of suffering today. 

Plus, the biggest reason of all for being suspicious of Landa: he's riding for Astana, who shouldn't even be at the race.


----------



## rich p (28 May 2015)

400bhp said:


> [QUOTE"rich p, post: 3717746, member: 500"]lt's all speculative but if you look at his Giro results for last year, he's made a stellar leap
> http://www.procyclingstats.com/rider.php?id=140293&season=2014


Well, he has had some good stage wins, notably on stage 4 mountain finish in giro trentino last year.

well, im gonna give him the benefit if the doubt.

now, what astana should have done is hide him until the vuelta. Could have won that, would then get interesting,[/QUOTE]

Fair enough but I suspect that Astana are as surprised as us at his form. At least he is young, and it's, at least, conceivable that he could make large improvements.



smutchin said:


> I'm with @400bhp - the evidence from what we're seeing is inconclusive. It is a relatively weak field and Landa has shown enough promise in the past to give his performance a veneer of credibility.
> 
> However...
> 
> ...



Yep, we're not alone in being surprised at how fresh he looks on the climbs and at the finish. I heard a rumour that h didn't even need a shower after the Mortirolo


----------



## rich p (28 May 2015)

p.s. the quote function has garbled the above! But you get the point, I hope


----------



## Crackle (28 May 2015)

I'd quite like to see Amador get 3rd, I'm kinda warming to him. 

I'm also amused at Contador taking revenge today for Astana's wheel change attack, like he forgot about the 2010 Andy Schleck chaingate incident when he did the same thing and attacked and later denied all knowledge of knowing about Schleck's misfortune.


----------



## tug benson (29 May 2015)

if Contador is still killing it in the mountains in Le tour like he is at the Giro, then shirley that will set alarm bells?? Also i can't see him doing a number on Froome, Nibali and wee Nairo the same way he has on the team leaders at the Giro


----------



## HF2300 (29 May 2015)

I don't know, he has got just over a month to recover. Convention says you can't do the double, but then people have done the double in the past - admittedly including some notorious dopers. I don't think ripping it up in the mountains will necessarily be alarming, but ripping it up consistently at the expensive of the much stiffer opposition in the tour probably will, particularly if the speeds are suspiciously high as well.

And don't call me Shirley.


----------



## HF2300 (29 May 2015)

smutchin said:


> Would like to see more visible signs of what racing like this is doing to Landa. Even Bertie showed signs of suffering today.



That seems to me an issue. Bertie's attack over Mortirolo was impressive, maybe even suspiciously so - but he kept taking breaks on the way up, had help from Igor Anton and others, looked tired towards the top and then didn't have the legs to attack Landa at the end. Yesterday it seemed he wanted to put in more of an attack than he did but ran out of legs. The others who've accompanied them - Hesjedal, Kruijswijk - have all looked tired. Landa didn't even look to be breaking sweat, and he's been doing heavy work day in day out.

I think it's mechanical doping. Landa is the six million dollar man.


----------



## 400bhp (29 May 2015)

Don't forget, when the big rivals hammered it in the TT, Landa (relatively speaking) pottered along. Like a rest day for him.


----------



## Crackle (29 May 2015)

I read Berties Mortirolo climb was below 6W/Kg and Kruijswijck was about 5.7w/kg

Times are here

http://www.gazzetta.it/Ciclismo/Spe...along-the-mortirolo-ascent-110989787978.shtml


----------



## 400bhp (29 May 2015)

45 mins up that. Amazing


----------



## Crackle (29 May 2015)

400bhp said:


> 45 mins up that. Amazing


How long did it take you?


----------



## 400bhp (29 May 2015)

Crackle said:


> How long did it take you?



Just had a look. Assuming it's the same point to point as your link then 1 hr 14 (average 5.7 mph).

Don't know if you can see strava but the climb is here:
https://www.strava.com/segments/614726?filter=overall


----------



## HF2300 (29 May 2015)

Astana ripping it up at the front again. They obviously think Contador hasn't got the drugs legs


----------



## The Couch (29 May 2015)

HF2300 said:


> Astana ripping it up at the front again. They obviously think Contador hasn't got the drugs legs


Although the doper in front is riding faster the dopers in blue 

Will Visconti be able to finish this amazing solo (especially if Landa and Contador want to give it a go for the GC)?


----------



## HF2300 (29 May 2015)

Who's this Joanna Visconti they keep talking about?


----------



## HF2300 (29 May 2015)

Going to end up in a sprint at this rate.


----------



## HF2300 (29 May 2015)

And the attacks start.


----------



## Crackle (29 May 2015)

Konig said this climb suited him better and Trofimov and Amador have both been dropped.


----------



## roadrash (29 May 2015)

Looks like aru may have been given a pick me up from the team doctor


----------



## Bobby Mhor (29 May 2015)

roadrash said:


> Looks like aru may have been given a pick me up from the team doctor


He had EPO for his breakfast (Extra Pickled Onion)


----------



## HF2300 (29 May 2015)

I love pickled onion but I couldn't imagine having it for breakfast


----------



## HF2300 (29 May 2015)

No real spoilers today then. Everyone's so underwhelmed by that unexpected finish and the idea they're all dopers anyway that they can't raise a finger to the keyboard.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (29 May 2015)

A slight aside from all the dopers winning, the only American to have won the Giro...
http://gearpatrol.com/2015/05/20/andy-hampsten-interview/


----------



## Crackle (29 May 2015)

HF2300 said:


> No real spoilers today then. Everyone's so underwhelmed by that unexpected finish and the idea they're all dopers anyway that they can't raise a finger to the keyboard.


Team order has been restored so I guess we won't see Landa attack tomorrow. Still an interesting battle for 5th and Sundays sprint to get wrong in the punditry. Talking of which, I don't know what the cut off was today but Mezgec was 57 minutes behind.


----------



## Strathlubnaig (29 May 2015)

Hesjedal is a right battler, good effort last few days, slowly clawing his way up the GC.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (29 May 2015)

Strathlubnaig said:


> Hesjedal is a right battler, good effort last few days, slowly clawing his way up the GC.



I really hoped they checked for a motor again today, just to píss him off


----------



## HF2300 (29 May 2015)

Crackle said:


> Talking of which, I don't know what the cut off was today but Mezgec was 57 minutes behind.



He was in a crash at the back of the bunch, apparently. Treated by the race doctor, abrasions.

Supposedly Haussler was penalised for a push, and Intxausti was penalised 20 secs for feeding inside 20km - and Astana's DS was penalised for having a team car where it shouldn't be.



Marmion said:


> I really hoped they checked for a motor again today, just to píss him off



Apparently they checked Contador after Stage 17. You probably knew that already.


----------



## HF2300 (29 May 2015)

HF2300 said:


> Apparently they checked Contador after Stage 17. You probably knew that already.



Well, checked his bike, anyway.


----------



## Bobby Mhor (29 May 2015)

HF2300 said:


> - *and Astana's DS was penalised for having a team car where it shouldn't be.*
> .


At the Chemist?


----------



## rich p (29 May 2015)

Well, that was another weird stage win. Aru outriding Landa - presumably on team orders. Because he's Italian, so fecking what?
If Landa doesn't win the Vuelta I'll eat my helmet again.
This race is píssing me off.


----------



## 400bhp (29 May 2015)

rich p said:


> Well, that was another weird stage win. Aru outriding Landa - presumably on team orders. Because he's Italian, so fecking what?
> If Landa doesn't win the Vuelta I'll eat my helmet again.
> This race is píssing me off.



The bit that's on after the race on Eurosport with Juan Antonia Flecha, some english bloke and (a special appearance today) Greg Lemond, Flecha & Lemond thought that the attach by Aru was unexpected by Landa. I dunno...

Good to see Uran have a go and back to some kind of form. I hope he does the TdF.


----------



## HF2300 (30 May 2015)

rich p said:


> If Landa doesn't win the Vuelta I'll eat my helmet again.



They're said to be considering putting Aru up for the Vuelta.


----------



## Roscoe (30 May 2015)

Probably Aru for the Vuelta. If Landa's out of contract and talking to other teams, they won't want World Tour points going to another team. 

Rumours that he's talking to Sky, surely they wouldn't take a risk on a rider from Astana???


----------



## Roscoe (30 May 2015)

This has been a cracking race, will be sorry to see it end.


----------



## 400bhp (30 May 2015)

Roscoe said:


> Rumours that he's talking to Sky, surely they wouldn't take a risk on a rider from Astana???



Why not? You can't run a business based on unsubstantiated fact, rumours and supposition. So long as they do all the due diligence they can (which I believe they do) pre purchase then it's fine.

If what you are suggesting was true then the market would correct the situation. What I mean by that is that no-one (clean teams) would risk purchasing a rider from Astana, the riders marketability would drop substantially, coupled with the fact Astana would then struggle to attract riders, they would go into obscurity. Hmmmm, now there's an idea...


----------



## rich p (30 May 2015)

HF2300 said:


> They're said to be considering putting Aru up for the Vuelta.


I thought team leader for the Vuelta would be payback for letting Aru have 2nd here. If he's leaving Astana though....


400bhp said:


> So long as they do all the due diligence they can (which I believe they do


Therein lies the rub, though.
It was common knowledge, albeit unsubstantiated, that Michael Barry, Geert Leinders, Sean Yates were tainted but got through the interview with Dr Steve Peters.
JTL was the subject of much peloton gossip.
Sky need to do more than take it at face value if they insist on being a zero-tolerance team, IMO


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (30 May 2015)

400bhp said:


> ...some english bloke



Not just any "english bloke", that's Ashley House. You know, Ashley House...no? From the Warranty Direct advert...
Yes, him.



Marmion said:


> View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCGOzVwFmqI


----------



## sleaver (30 May 2015)

This is probably showing my naivety in my knowledge of pro racing, but what are Dario Cataldo's performances for Astana like compared to when he was at Sky for the past couple of seasons?


----------



## Dogtrousers (30 May 2015)

400bhp said:


> Why not? You can't run a business based on unsubstantiated fact, rumours and supposition. So long as they do all the due diligence they can (which I believe they do) pre purchase then it's fine.


Do they? Leinders ... Julich ... JTL Etc


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (30 May 2015)

sleaver said:


> This is probably showing my naivety in my knowledge of pro racing, but what are Dario Cataldo's performances for Astana like compared to when he was at Sky for the past couple of seasons?



He was 2nd in the Mountains competition at last years Giro when riding for Sky so has form as a decent climber

You can get all his results here:
http://www.procyclingstats.com/rider/Dario_Cataldo


----------



## rich p (30 May 2015)

Dogtrousers said:


> Do they? Leinders ... Julich ... JTL Etc


TMN to me?


----------



## rich p (30 May 2015)

Just watched the preview of the strada banca climb to Colle delle Finestre. Looks tough on a rough road but at least it's dry.


----------



## HF2300 (30 May 2015)

This is turning into the doping gits thread.

Did I just come in to hear Kelly and Hatch talking openly about Chiapucci doping?


----------



## rich p (30 May 2015)

HF2300 said:


> This is turning into the doping gits thread.
> 
> Did I just come in to hear Kelly and Hatch talking openly about Chiapucci doping?


Talking of which, Zakarin is out front again!


----------



## Crackle (30 May 2015)

Pirazzi finally found his legs


rich p said:


> Talking of which, Zakarin is out front again!


He thinks he's on sugarloaf mountain


----------



## rich p (30 May 2015)

Crackle said:


> He thinks he's on sugarloaf mountain


You wouldn't let it lie


----------



## Crackle (30 May 2015)

rich p said:


> You wouldn't let it lie


I had to stir.


----------



## rich p (30 May 2015)

Crackle said:


> Pirazzi finally found his legs
> 
> He thinks he's on sugarloaf mountain


I think he was born with a silver spoon in his mouth...


----------



## Crackle (30 May 2015)

boom, tish...

...meanwhile back at the Giro


----------



## rich p (30 May 2015)

In that betting ad with the monks, is it Arsene Wenger in goal?


----------



## HF2300 (30 May 2015)

Crackle said:


> Pirazzi finally found his legs



Lost them again.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (30 May 2015)

I have just tweeted Brian Cookson wishing him luck in the fight against Astana doping, he's going to need it on this display!


----------



## Crackle (30 May 2015)

The LandaBorg has gone. Is this team orders, surely not?


----------



## rich p (30 May 2015)

Bert is struggling to follow the unbelievable Landa


----------



## rich p (30 May 2015)

Landaborg (cr Crax) wil be a minute up on AC soon


----------



## Crackle (30 May 2015)

I'm not sure Contador is worried but Aru should be.


----------



## Crackle (30 May 2015)

Contador in trouble.


----------



## HF2300 (30 May 2015)

These idiots running alongside him must be pissing him off no end.


----------



## rich p (30 May 2015)

If Landa had taken more time from AC the other day...


----------



## Crackle (30 May 2015)

Muddled tactics from Astana.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (30 May 2015)

Crackle said:


> Muddled tactics from Astana.



Giuseppe Martinelli was interviewed on Eurosport a few hours ago and said something along the lines of "each man for himself" and "wanting to win the stage" for today's stage - free reign to show how well the doping has impacted on their ability they can ride when allowed to race for themselves?


----------



## the_craig (30 May 2015)

Every climb this Giro has been Contador surrounded by 4 or 5 Astana riders.

And despite this, they still can't beat him.


----------



## Crackle (30 May 2015)

Marmion said:


> Giuseppe Martinelli was interviewed on Eurosport a few hours ago and said something along the lines of "each man for himself" and "wanting to win the stage" for today's stage - free reign to show how well the doping has impacted on their ability they can ride when allowed to race for themselves?


So why call Landa back?


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (30 May 2015)

Fúck. Off. Astana.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (30 May 2015)

Crackle said:


> So why call Landa back?



I missed that one crax, switching between Scottish Cup Final and getting more angry at Astana watching the Giro


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (30 May 2015)

The Scottish Cup Final is good btw...


----------



## sleaver (30 May 2015)

Wasn't Kengert actually helping Contador by sitting in his well? I though having someone behind actually helps make the air flow less turbulent behind you or is that less pronounced on climbs just like you gain less by sitting in someone's wheel?


----------



## rich p (30 May 2015)

We should have a witchfinder debrief after tomorrow's stage.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (30 May 2015)

rich p said:


> We should have a witchfinder debrief after tomorrow's stage.


----------



## Flying_Monkey (30 May 2015)

Crackle said:


> Muddled tactics from Astana.



Not at all. It was a classic 'tag-team' double attack. Super-dom goes first to try to break the opponent, and then the leader goes once the opponent looks done in.


----------



## 400bhp (30 May 2015)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Not at all. It was a classic 'tag-team' double attack. Super-dom goes first to try to break the opponent, and then the leader goes once the opponent looks done in.



Agree, but for moments it did look like they didn't know what they were doing.

Putting 2 mins into contador on one stage is not to be sniffed at.

Wouldn't put it past Astana to knock Contador off tomorrow.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (30 May 2015)

Greg Lemond seemed to think that Astana made an arse of it, and reckoned if they had worked as a team they could have seriously left Dirty Bertie in trouble. Which goes back to my earlier post that Astana's manager said before the start that they would ride as individuals...maybe they had given up on being able to distance him? Whatever it was, they are still a shower of doping twats. I can see myself going back to my "not watching this lot of cheating daffodils" approach like I did in the 90s at this rate...


----------



## Crackle (30 May 2015)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Not at all. It was a classic 'tag-team' double attack. Super-dom goes first to try to break the opponent, and then the leader goes once the opponent looks done in.


It didn't look classic to me, it looked like Landa meant to win the stage and was subsequently called back, indeed he's said so since. Astana could quite possibly have won the Giro with Landa, Greg Lemond also questioned their tactics, specifically today but also in general.


----------



## Flying_Monkey (31 May 2015)

Crackle said:


> It didn't look classic to me, it looked like Landa meant to win the stage and was subsequently called back, indeed he's said so since. Astana could quite possibly have won the Giro with Landa, Greg Lemond also questioned their tactics, specifically today but also in general.



Landa might well have won it had he been leader from the start, I agree. And I guess I'll have to take his word for it on the stage. But if I was managing Astana, and Aru was the leader, then I would have done exactly what they did today.


----------



## HF2300 (31 May 2015)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Not at all. It was a classic 'tag-team' double attack. Super-dom goes first to try to break the opponent, and then the leader goes once the opponent looks done in.



Have to say, I didn't see it that way either. It might have looked like that when Landa attacked on Finistre but there seemed to be a lot of chaos and confusion from there to the finish. They certainly weren't putting it to Hesjedal, Kruijswijk et al. I don't think Landa helped matters by pinching the Cima Coppi from Zakarin either - he was never going to get Zakarin to help after that.


----------



## Roscoe (31 May 2015)

Still think Astana messed up big time. They were putting Bert in serious trouble. They had enough riders to come back together and almost TT to the finish, Bert had nobody. Too much emphasis on getting Aru the stage win. Landa could have and should have stolen the Giro.

Very surprised at Martinelli decision making.

Anyway, points Jersey still up for grabs today so should be another good one.


----------



## Dayvo (31 May 2015)

Nice close-up on Eurosport of AC eating his beef energy bar!


----------



## Bobby Mhor (31 May 2015)

On another note..

Cav was holding Cal Crutchlow's helmet at Mugello earlier..
says his next race is Tour of Switzerland then its Le Tour


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## Crackle (31 May 2015)

HF2300 said:


> I don't think Landa helped matters by pinching the Cima Coppi from Zakarin either - he was never going to get Zakarin to help after that.


That wasn't clever was it. Landa has struck me as naive to the point of stupidity in most of the interviews he's given. He'll have to wise up if he wants to lead a team and be a bit more circumspect.

This news amused me today

_*Coledan fined for waiting at the line*

Every day, the UCI produce a naughty list of all the riders and directeur sportifs that have been given a penalty for various infractions such as illegal feeds, hanging onto cars too long or, in Richie Porte’s case, an illegal wheel change. Marco Coledan (Trek Factory Racing) was given one of the more unusual fines of the Giro d’Italia after he stopped just before the finish line in Sestriere.

Coledan has been in his own personal battle with Roger Kluge for the lantern rouge, or maglia nera as it used to be known. Coledan was 6:20 down on Kluge at the start of the day and wanted to ensure he kept himself rooted to the bottom of the standings so he pulled up a few hundred metres from the line and waited for the IAM Cycling rider so they could go over together.

The pair seemed fairly jovial as they crossed the line, according to cyclingpro.net, but the UCI was not too amused and slapped Coledan with a 500 CHF fine, stating that: "Riders shall sportingly defend their own luck. Any collusion or behaviour likely to distort or harm the interests of the competition is forbidden.”

Coledan, however, remains at the bottom of the overall classification some 6 hours 40 behind Alberto Contador_.


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## mjr (31 May 2015)

Breakaway on the final circuit looks high quality today, Keisse and Durbridge. Doubt it's enough time (43"@8.5k) to make it stick, but if anyone can, it's those two.


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## Bobby Mhor (31 May 2015)

A few of the sprinters hopes being deflated each lap..


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## mjr (31 May 2015)

TV saying 32"@3.7k... please please please please please don't be the usual rai timing blooper


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## Dayvo (31 May 2015)

Durbridge for the sprint finish, methinks.


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## roadrash (31 May 2015)

looks like the puncture fairy is todays winner


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## Dayvo (31 May 2015)

Ah...


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## Dayvo (31 May 2015)

Nice gesture congratulating Durbridge.


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## Flying_Monkey (31 May 2015)

A hopeful breakaway succeeding on the final 'procession stage' of a GT: you really don't see that very often.


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## mjr (31 May 2015)

Dayvo said:


> Durbridge for the sprint finish, methinks.


Why did you have to do that? :-p

German commentary of the bunch sprint was pretty wrong. I think calling it for Viviani but I was shouting at the TV so I may have misheard 

So, anyone else really looking forward to finding out how the Astana saga ends?


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## Bobby Mhor (31 May 2015)

mjray said:


> So, anyone else really looking forward to finding out how the Astana saga ends?


Obviously on a 'high'

I'd imagine the 'domination' etc must be making the UCI beaks pretty frustrated...


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## Dayvo (31 May 2015)

mjray said:


> So, anyone else really looking forward to finding out how the Astana saga ends?



???







or


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## Roscoe (31 May 2015)

Brilliant Giro, really enjoyed it. 

Going to miss watching the racing every day, roll on the Dauphine!


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## Strathlubnaig (1 Jun 2015)

I lost count, but there were several breakaway wins this Giro eh, always like to see that.


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