# A dual carriageway question for you ...



## ColinJ (21 Jan 2018)

This isn't really a cycling question but this seems like a good sub-forum to ask in. I do not drive and this is a question about driving so I would be interested to hear the opinions of the drivers among you. I'll wait until I have a number of replies before explaining why I am asking.

I'll present you with 2 options and I would appreciate it if you would tell me which you think is correct/legal.

It is about crossing a dual carriageway from a side road, and the effect that your decision has on drivers wanting to turn right from the far carriageway to exit down the side road. (I checked the highway code and am satisfied that the 3rd option is not needed - that is to wait until it is clear to cross the near carriageway and immediately turn right onto the far carriageway. In this particular case there is plenty of room to wait in a normal-sized car between the 2 carriageways.)

Take a look at the 2 pictures below. Would you exit the side road taking the line shown in picture 'A' or the one shown in picture 'B'? (I have given an indication of what you would therefore expect a right-turning driver coming along the far carriageway to do.) Please explain your reasoning.












Thanks!

PS Note the faint right-pointing arrow painted on the road and say what you think that it is trying to convey.


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## bianchi1 (21 Jan 2018)

A is correct. Cars turning right into the minor road have right of way over cars coming out of the minor road turning right. It can be a bit of a pain if you are the car that is trying to join the main carriageway as not only do you have to wait for a gap in the flowing traffic, but also a gap in the queuing traffic waiting to to drive onto the minor road. We have a junction exactly like it by us (in the pic) so its nothing out of the ordinary, but its amazing how many people don't know how to use it correctly. The county council are looking to change ours to a roundabout or traffic lights. Hopefully its a roundabout as traffic lights would mean the loss of a good ctt 10 mile time trial course and several club tt courses.


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## ColinJ (21 Jan 2018)

Thanks. Yes, I think it makes sense to wait if cars are already queuing up to exit the dual carriageway.

Let's assume that _no_ cars are queuing. You are clear to leave the minor road but have to wait to turn right when halfway across. Do you proceed as in A or in B? (I am trying to establish the correct position of your car when waiting.)


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## ADarkDraconis (21 Jan 2018)

I instantly thought of B because that is how we would configure it to remain on the right near the curb, but then I remembered that you folks drive on the other side (US here) and so A then shows the proper setup so that you are on the left of the drivers that may be coming on. So my final answer is A.

Waiting is in the same position regardless of whether or not a car is approaching, because the idea is that you should be in the proper place should a car come up. Just like we would wait in a turning lane at a light even if no other vehicles are on the road, it is the correct place to be for the maneuver you are about to do.


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## Slick (21 Jan 2018)

Tricky. A is most probably correct, especially if traffic is flowing but it would block the progress of others during rush hour. B would let one vehicle sit waiting to turn right without blocking anyone. 

Poor design in this day and age.


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## bpsmith (21 Jan 2018)

A, without question. It’s annoying for those waiting to join the carriageway from the side road, but that just the same as where you have a mini roundabout with the road to your right being the busier route.


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## Mo1959 (21 Jan 2018)

A for me too. Treat it like waiting to turn right out of a junction I would say.


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## Dave 123 (21 Jan 2018)

A would be the safest in respect of visibility. To join the new road approaching at 90° would indeed be slower, but would give better visibility down the carriageway.

Picture B leaves a blind spot.

The road known as the Hoylake road in the Wirral (don't know the number @Crackle ) has a particularly dodgy example of this, though the road is dualled. The turn from Ledsham Road is 90° across fast moving, unhindered traffic to a central area, then pull out into 2 lanes of moving traffic. I think it may be set up/ used in the option B style. It has seen its fair share of accidents due to blind spots and fast traffic.


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## mustang1 (21 Jan 2018)

I think I'd go with B. 

Another dumb British junction. If I knew this junction well and it was busy, I wouldn't even make a right turn (from the side road). I would rather turn left, go up the road and see what options I had to U-turn.

If I was a driver approaching from the main road wanting to turn right and there was already a car waiting at the intersection to turn right from the side road, I would leave some distance so the poor fellow would have some visibility of traffic lest he gets in front of a high speed approaching car.


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## mustang1 (21 Jan 2018)

bianchi1 said:


> A is correct. Cars turning right into the minor road have right of way over cars coming out of the minor road turning right. It can be a bit of a pain if you are the car that is trying to join the main carriageway as not only do you have to wait for a gap in the flowing traffic, but also a gap in the queuing traffic waiting to to drive onto the minor road. We have a junction exactly like it by us (in the pic) so its nothing out of the ordinary, but its amazing how many people don't know how to use it correctly. The county council are looking to change ours to a roundabout or traffic lights. Hopefully its a roundabout as traffic lights would mean the loss of a good ctt 10 mile time trial course and several club tt courses.



If they turn it into a porter large roundabout then that's fine. But if they make it one of those mini roundabouts, I find the drivers on the "main road" just carry on and never give way to people coming from the side road. The drivers on the main road think they have right of way but the Give Way lines say otherwise. 

In this scenario, traffic lights (with camera enforcement) might be better? (I know it screws with the TT )


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## mustang1 (21 Jan 2018)

ColinJ said:


> Thanks. Yes, I think it makes sense to wait if cars are already queuing up to exit the dual carriageway.
> 
> Let's assume that _no_ cars are queuing. You are clear to leave the minor road but have to wait to turn right when halfway across. Do you proceed as in A or in B? (I am trying to establish the correct position of your car when waiting.)



I would still go with B.


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## Brandane (21 Jan 2018)

ColinJ said:


> PS Note the faint right-pointing arrow painted on the road and say what you think that it is trying to convey.


It is a badly positioned sign to indicate that the lane is for right turning traffic only, just in case the grassy central reservation didn't make it obvious to your average dopey British driver.
As for turning right from the minor road onto the main road, scenario A is correct. These junctions are especially fun when driving an artic with 40' trailer!


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## Pale Rider (21 Jan 2018)

A for me.

Realistically, other traffic at the junction would often force you into B - or a long wait and possibly abuse for dithering from the driver behind you.


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## raleighnut (21 Jan 2018)

A here too but that looks a 'nasty' junction so I'd try to avoid it.


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## Heltor Chasca (21 Jan 2018)

I’ve chosen B. This system works in Midsomer Norton, where you drive off the one way high street and turn right into Lidl or Argos. Cars are instructed with paint markings to drive on the right. When you leave the car park you drive on the right and out onto the one way high street again. I guess you could apply a SIMILAR train of thought. It’s unusual but it seems to work.

Either way the example in the OP is just another example of our below average infrastructure.


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## mjr (21 Jan 2018)

Neither. Exit the side road as in A, so a car turning right at short notice won't strand you mid-carriageway, then move to B to wait to turn into the carriageway, so you don't obstruct those turning in.

There are some of those near the east end of the A17 and that's how they work most of the time.


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## steve292 (21 Jan 2018)

A is how I was taught 32 years ago. You should always cross offside to offside( drivers side) same as you would on any junction not specifically marked otherwise.


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## Old jon (21 Jan 2018)

A. as ^^ but longer ago than 32 years


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## ColinJ (21 Jan 2018)

Thanks for your replies. I agree that it seems a badly designed junction and is 'an accident waiting to happen'.

The reason that I asked the question is because my niece has just failed her driving test for the second time at that junction. It is at the end of the road from the test centre in Leighton Buzzard so examiners tend to take the test drive out that way. My niece had gone out that way many times with her instructor who had told her that she should use method B. This would allow drivers turning off the main road to proceed without being held up by her vehicle. My niece queried the advice, saying that there were no signs or road markings to suggest that, it was counter-intuitive, and her car and cars turning the other way would block each other's view of oncoming traffic. @Brandane gives the most obvious reason why B is wrong - because long vehicles couldn't go that way. It is clearly wrong that some vehicles should use one approach and others the alternative.

My niece took to driving very easily. She was very upset to fail the first test. She got only 2 minors. Her 1 major was that she was said to have incorrectly positioned her car on the right turn. She used method B, as taught by her instructor. Wrong! She should have used method A... She told the examiner that she had been taught B. No, no, no - it has to be A!

So, another test booked. Test #2 was with a different examiner. Out by the same junction using the correct method, A. My niece was confident that she had passed. Result - no minors, but failed on one major - incorrect positioning at junction. She should have used method B!!! 

When told about the previous test, examiner #2 simply told her that it didn't matter what other examiners said. He was failing her and that was all that mattered.

It appears that there is a serious problem with driving tests in Leighton Buzzard. The test drive will usually go out by that junction. If you guess which way to position your car, you will guess wrong. If you ask the examiner which method they prefer, undoubtably they would see that as a sign that you didn't know what you were doing!

My niece refuses to take another test there, so is considering booking a further test somewhere else.

What a damn farce!


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## Slick (21 Jan 2018)

ColinJ said:


> Thanks for your replies. I agree that it seems a badly designed junction and is 'an accident waiting to happen'.
> 
> The reason that I asked the question is because my niece has just failed her driving test for the second time at that junction. It is at the end of the road from the test centre in Leighton Buzzard so examiners tend to take the test drive out that way. My niece had gone out that way many times with her instructor who had told her that she should use method B. This would allow drivers turning off the main road to proceed without being held up by her vehicle. My niece queried the advice, saying that there were no signs or road markings to suggest that, it was counter-intuitive, and her car and cars turning the other way would block each other's view of oncoming traffic. @Brandane gives the most obvious reason why B is wrong - because long vehicles couldn't go that way. It is clearly wrong that some vehicles should use one approach and others the alternative.
> 
> ...


If she kept all the paperwork, she could appeal.


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## furball (21 Jan 2018)

I cross a similar junction daily.
A is the option that puts the drivers in the optimal positions to enable them to see the line of traffic they are aiming to cross.
There is always a numpty who will pull out of the side road and sits in the space where vehicles turning off the main road need to be.


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## Brandane (21 Jan 2018)

ColinJ said:


> What a damn farce!


Yes, they can be something of a lottery and down to individual examiner's interpretation, which can't be right. Here is my expensive tale of woe.


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## ColinJ (21 Jan 2018)

Slick said:


> If she kept all the paperwork, she could appeal.


Yes, she will appeal but apparently test judgements are never reversed. All she can hope for is to get her next test free.



Brandane said:


> Yes, they can be something of a lottery and down to individual examiner's interpretation, which can't be right. Here is my expensive tale of woe.


Ouch. I missed that post at the time. Another farcical result!


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## Slick (21 Jan 2018)

ColinJ said:


> Yes, she will appeal but apparently test judgements are never reversed. All she can hope for is to get her next test free.
> 
> 
> Ouch. I missed that post at the time. Another farcical result!



It must be one or the other, although exact position is just he said she said. I wish her luck with her appeal.


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## toffee (21 Jan 2018)

This is how Milton Keynes has dealt with some of these


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## Drago (21 Jan 2018)

I'd choose whichever position gives me the greatest visibility, and the best chance to swiftly and efficiently establish myself on the new road, and anything else be damned.


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## bpsmith (21 Jan 2018)

Most of the time there are signs stating no U turns, so you’d then either do it illegally or keep driving in the opposite direction.


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## Slick (21 Jan 2018)

bpsmith said:


> Most of the time there are signs stating no U turns, so you’d then either do it illegally or keep driving in the opposite direction.


Not all the time. A common enough tactic employed by an lgv driver.


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## bpsmith (21 Jan 2018)

Slick said:


> Not all the time. A common enough tactic employed by an lgv driver.


Absolutely. Just speaking from experience of my local area only. There’s either no U turn signs or they have slowly filled in many of the crossing points and forced local drivers to continue on B roads to get to the diminished number of crossings.


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## ColinJ (21 Jan 2018)

toffee said:


> This is how Milton Keynes has dealt with some of these
> View attachment 392505


That makes sense. It is clear who can do what.



Drago said:


> I'd choose whichever position gives me the greatest visibility, and the best chance to swiftly and efficiently establish myself on the new road, and anything else be damned.


That's ok once you have passed the test, but when an examiner can fail you for doing exactly that (and what another examiner insisted that you should do) then you can't do that ...

I'm just amazed that it is down to a matter of personal interpretation by examiners. I thought that there would be a very rigid set of rules for them to enforce. 

I would love to know just how many people are failing tests there purely on which side of the refuge between the 2 carriageways they choose to use. There ought to be some mechanism to oblige examiners to stick to one approach.


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## keithmac (21 Jan 2018)

For me on the orignal junction I would wait at B personally, out of the way.

A would result in blocking the junction imho.

Either way it's a nasty junction and she has been treated very unfairly by the examiners.


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## Brandane (21 Jan 2018)

ColinJ said:


> I would love to know just how many people are failing tests there purely on which side of the refuge between the 2 carriageways they choose to use. There ought to be some mechanism to oblige examiners to stick to one approach.


Problems maybe arise depending on what OTHER drivers are doing. For example - although most of us are agreeing that scenario "A" is the way to go, that assumes that the traffic on the DC turning right are in the proper position for doing so (which would block off option B anyway). However there might be someone intending to turn right off the DC who is aware of a queue behind him/her, then sees someone trying to turn right OUT of the minor road, so hangs back to create a gap for them. In that case "B" would be the safer option for someone in your niece's position. There's no real right or wrong unfortunately - each manoeuvre has to be considered on it's own merit.

Edit... Same as route B would be the proper course to take in the absence of any other traffic.


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## Alan O (21 Jan 2018)

ColinJ said:


> I would love to know just how many people are failing tests there purely on which side of the refuge between the 2 carriageways they choose to use. There ought to be some mechanism to oblige examiners to stick to one approach.


I think I'd write to the driving school, explain what happened (naming the two instructors, neutrally and without criticism), and ask those very questions. And if I did not get a satisfactory response, I might write to whatever government department is responsible (with copies of all correspondence with the driving school).

Actually, while I was typing that, I just remembered that a friend of mine is an ex driving instructor instructor (he taught driving instructors), so I'll ask him for his thoughts when I see him.


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## alicat (21 Jan 2018)

I think I'd take my test somewhere else next time.


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## andrew_s (21 Jan 2018)

alicat said:


> I think I'd take my test somewhere else next time.


I think that has already been decided on.
Can I suggest Barra?


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## bpsmith (21 Jan 2018)

[QUOTE 5124063, member: 9609"]I wasn't meaning some sort of mad U-Turn on a busy dual - LOL - that would be even more dangerous than trying to squeeze across. I was thinking more of finding a flyover or some other suitable turning point. Some of these mini dual sections on single carriageway trunk roads can be completely mental with people trying to break the sound barrier.[/QUOTE]
I understood your point in fairness. Perhaps my response didn’t convey that, sorry.

I am thinking about a couple of longish roads locally, similar to the picture posted above, where they don’t have flyovers and they have systematically removed the crossing points subtly over time.


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## Levo-Lon (21 Jan 2018)

Sometimes A or B choice wont help.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...6A46C0F4BE2F494248616A46C0F4BE2F494&FORM=VIRE


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## Slick (21 Jan 2018)

meta lon said:


> Sometimes A or B choice wont help.
> 
> https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...6A46C0F4BE2F494248616A46C0F4BE2F494&FORM=VIRE


Okay, I'll bite, what's that got to do with a young girl failing a driving exam?


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## Alan O (22 Jan 2018)

ColinJ said:


> This isn't really a cycling question but this seems like a good sub-forum to ask in. I do not drive and this is a question about driving so I would be interested to hear the opinions of the drivers among you. I'll wait until I have a number of replies before explaining why I am asking.
> 
> I'll present you with 2 options and I would appreciate it if you would tell me which you think is correct/legal.
> 
> ...


I've shown my driving instructor friend the photos of the junction and have asked him, and he has a number of thoughts.

He reckons that if there is any vehicle approaching on the right-turning lane on the major road, the driver on the minor road should wait until that vehicle has cleared the junction before progressing. At that point, with no vehicle turning right off the major road, they should take route B.

The question of offside-to-offside passing should not arise in a T-junction situation, as the driver coming from the minor road should simply not be in the junction if there is a vehicle approaching in the turning lane on the major road. He says the offside-to-offside passing thing is applicable to crossroads where vehicles from opposite directions are turning right from the major road onto minor roads, and not to situations like this.

He also commented that just positioning a vehicle incorrectly at that junction should only have been a minor, unless it was done dangerously - for example, if there was another vehicle in the junction at the time. To resolve that, he'd need to be sure whether the junction was clear when the driver approached it, or whether there was a vehicle approaching in the right-turning lane of the major road - if the latter, the correct procedure is to stop in the minor road and not enter the junction until that vehicle has completed the turn,

If there were no vehicles turning right from the major road, and if the learner was failed once for adopting position A and once for adopting position B, then he reckons she has the right to appeal. A successful appeal would not overturn a test result, and the most you could get from it is a free retest. He's not sure who to make the appeal to now, but the driving instructor should know.

He also reckons that the driving instructor has the right to approach the test centre and query the apparently contradictory fail reasons - and that instructors actually have the right to sit in the car for the debriefing and to question the examiner on their reasons for failing.

My friend also said that even when trying to follow the rules to the letter, there will often still be some subjective judgment required when it comes to the best way to approach a junction - but that a test centre should be consistent, and if the DVLA (or whoever it is) sees appeals due to inconsistencies, they can send someone in to try to find out what's wrong.

His final caution was in choosing a different test centre, as that will introduce a whole set of new roads and junctions with which the learner is not familiar - and he's seen numerous people going on to fail badly because of that.

Anyway, that's a bit long-winded, but I wanted to try to capture my friend's words as precisely as I understood him. I hope it's some help.


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## ColinJ (22 Jan 2018)

Alan O said:


> I've shown my driving instructor friend the photos of the junction and have asked him, and he has a number of thoughts.
> 
> He reckons that if there is any vehicle approaching on the right-turning lane on the major road, the driver on the minor road should wait until that vehicle has cleared the junction before progressing. At that point, with no vehicle turning right off the major road, they should take route B.
> 
> ...


Thank you, Alan - that's very helpful!

I thought it sounded more like a 'minor' rather than a 'major', if there was actually any fault at all. What I don't know is if there were other vehicles involved coming from opposite left. I have texted my sister to ask for more details. I could see there being potential consequences to attempt the turn onto the dual carriageway if there was a possibility of conflict with a motorist leaving at the junction.

I also thought that my niece should stick to her local centre if possible because she is very familiar with the local roads.


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## Alan O (22 Jan 2018)

ColinJ said:


> Thank you, Alan - that's very helpful!
> 
> I thought it sounded more like a 'minor' rather than a 'major', if there was actually any fault at all. What I don't know is if there were other vehicles involved coming from opposite left. I have texted my sister to ask for more details. I could see there being potential consequences to attempt the turn onto the dual carriageway if there was a possibility of conflict with a motorist leaving at the junction.
> 
> I also thought that my niece should stick to her local centre if possible because she is very familiar with the local roads.


He's just added that, assuming the right turn lane from the major road was clear, adopting position A would actually block vehicles subsequently entering it, whereas B would let them pass and turn right into the minor road.


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## keithmac (22 Jan 2018)

Alan O said:


> He's just added that, assuming the right turn lane from the major road was clear, adopting position A would actually block vehicles subsequently entering it, whereas B would let them pass and turn right into the minor road.



That was my thinking as well.


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## mjr (23 Jan 2018)

ColinJ said:


> I also thought that my niece should stick to her local centre if possible because she is very familiar with the local roads.


That irritates me a bit. She'll be allowed to drive on any roads after passing the test, so familiarity shouldn't be required. If it helps, then the system is defective!


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## ColinJ (24 Jan 2018)

mjr said:


> That irritates me a bit. She'll be allowed to drive on any roads after passing the test, so familiarity shouldn't be required. If it helps, then the system is defective!


You are not as irritated as my family are! 

Of course it should not be necessary to memorise routes and practice individual junctions.

My sister is a very good driver with over 40 years experience and has been driven all over the place by my niece and says that she is an excellent driver. The examiners clearly _largely _agree on that, only handing out 2 'minors' in the 2 tests. I think I had given a wee hint that we think that the system _IS _defective though when 2 officials from the same centre can't agree on a simple question of road positioning, contradict each other, and both give 'majors' for it.

My niece told me at the weekend that she was told that the majors were just for incorrect positioning on the road, not for failing to give way/pulling out unsafely/(whatever). I'm still waiting to get a reply about whether any other vehicles were nearby at the time that the majors were handed out. If there were no other vehicles involved then I really can't see what the problem was. If there _were _other vehicles and she made any significant mistakes, why didn't the examiners tell her about _them _instead?


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## kingrollo (24 Jan 2018)

A


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## mjr (24 Jan 2018)

kingrollo said:


> A


You're adorable! B


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## mjr (24 Jan 2018)

Dogtrousers said:


> I passed my test in Abergavenny in the 70s. Provided you weren't daft enough to venture out on a market day it was quiet as anything. One of my first big solo drives was up to Birmingham. To say I was a bit unprepared would be an understatement.


Just a postscript on this in case anyone thinks I'm being harsh on others: I failed my first driving test at the first junction because I didn't correctly anticipate the effect of the ramp up out of the test centre having a brow and becoming a ramp down onto the road for the last 3 or so metres, so the nose of my car crossed the give-way before I stopped... and there was a car coming (the view obscured by roadside trees until you reached the give-way line). It didn't have to change its course because it was a wide road, but that was regarded as a major fault and a fail and I can't honestly disagree with that one - a licensed driver should be able to cope with roads they've not driven before better than I did then! If my driving instructor had taken me in and out of their car park (which you can do at King's Lynn's current test centre, but not that one because it had gates), I would have been familiar with it and passed and that would have been wrong.

I do disagree with my failure for "not making progress" and my breaking the speed limit during my test only being regarded as a minor fault but the driving test's bias towards going faster is another discussion.


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## Slick (24 Jan 2018)

mjr said:


> Just a postscript on this in case anyone thinks I'm being harsh on others: I failed my first driving test at the first junction because I didn't correctly anticipate the effect of the ramp up out of the test centre having a brow and becoming a ramp down onto the road for the last 3 or so metres, so the nose of my car crossed the give-way before I stopped... and there was a car coming (the view obscured by roadside trees until you reached the give-way line). It didn't have to change its course because it was a wide road, but that was regarded as a major fault and a fail and I can't honestly disagree with that one - a licensed driver should be able to cope with roads they've not driven before better than I did then! If my driving instructor had taken me in and out of their car park (which you can do at King's Lynn's current test centre, but not that one because it had gates), I would have been familiar with it and passed and that would have been wrong.
> 
> I do disagree with my failure for "not making progress" and my breaking the speed limit during my test only being regarded as a minor fault but the driving test's bias towards going faster is another discussion.


Funny you mention that, I failed first time for going too slow.


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## ColinJ (10 Apr 2018)

My niece will shortly be taking her test again on the same roads. My sister decided to call in at the test centre and have a word. When she got there, there was a waiting room full of people, and a phone with a notice next to it saying to call if one needed to speak to an examiner. She rang and an examiner answered the phone ...

Sister: [Explained the situation]

Examiner:_ I can't comment on past tests._

Sister: _I don't want you to. I just want to know what my daughter should do at the dual carriageway junction._

Examiner: _She should do what her instructor told her to do in that situation._

Sister: _She did what the instructor said and examiner #1 failed her for doing that._

Examiner:_ I can't comment other than to say that she should do what her instructor told her to do in that situation._

Sister:_ In her next test she did what examiner #1 said she should have done and examiner #2 failed her for doing that._

Examiner: _She should do what her instructor told her to do in that situation._

Sister: _THANK YOU FOR BEING SO BLOODY UNHELPFUL!!!!!_

Examiner: _Please hold ...
_
[Time passes ... _slowly!_]

Examiner:_ I have just asked my boss what to say to you and he told me that I am not allowed to give you driving instruction. I repeat - She should do what her instructor told her to do in that situation.
_
Sister: _Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!!!!!!_ (Slams phone down.)

She turned to storm out, being eyeballed by the crowd in the waiting room. One man speaks up ...

Stranger:_ Tell your daughter what she needs to do when the examiner tells her to turn right onto the far carriageway is to ignore the instruction and just turn left onto the near carriageway. Safely failing to obey an instruction is a 'minor'!_

Sister: _Wow, how stupid, but I think you are right - thanks!_



So what will probably happen now is that the examiner will give her a minor and then take her round in a big circle so she can have another go at the junction and keep doing that, accumulating minors, until she agrees to turn right!


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## Drago (12 Apr 2018)

Never failed a test in my life. Unless you could count the STD test...


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## raleighnut (12 Apr 2018)

Drago said:


> Never failed a test in my life. Unless you could count the STD test...


So you can't ring people on the telephone.


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## gbb (12 Apr 2018)

Id go B if I were a car coming from the side road. 
A potentially blocks the junction, B doesnt....or has less potential to.

Taking B, I can see if there' a gap available to join the main carriageway, even if a car arrives turning right. If I took A and a car arrived turning right, he would potentially block my view, creating a potential problem. We'd be in each others way.

If I was still at the side road and a car was turning right...id wait till he cleared of course, I'd give him priority. (In case that was part of the scenario)


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## ColinJ (12 Apr 2018)

The problem is that she went 'A' one time and got failed for that, and 'B' the other time and got failed for that too! So basically, she has to guess what the examiner on the day thinks is right. In theory she will eventually guess correctly but it could get very expensive to have to keep retaking the test and keeping her fingers crossed for a lucky guess!


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## mjr (13 Apr 2018)

ColinJ said:


> The problem is that she went 'A' one time and got failed for that, and 'B' the other time and got failed for that too! So basically, she has to guess what the examiner on the day thinks is right. In theory she will eventually guess correctly but it could get very expensive to have to keep retaking the test and keeping her fingers crossed for a lucky guess!


If she really believes that either A or B is correct (and I don't, as described earlier), then raise a complaint. And probably still take the test at Bletchley or wherever instead.


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## uphillstruggler (13 Apr 2018)

toffee said:


> This is how Milton Keynes has dealt with some of these
> View attachment 392505



and I think they are now blocking them off in places too. that one in particular


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## toffee (13 Apr 2018)

uphillstruggler said:


> and I think they are now blocking them off in places too. that one in particular


That one is very much in use. That is the solution for the ones they have not blocked.


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## ColinJ (13 Apr 2018)

I'm just gobsmacked that it isn't as simple as ...

"_This is the rule. The instructor teaches you the rule. The examiner tests how you follow the rule_" 

rather than ...

"_The examiner has an opinion about what the rule is. The instructor will have taught you a rule. If the instructor's rule is the same as the examiner's rule, follow the rule. If the instructor's rule is the opposite of the examiner's rule, follow the examiner's rule. BTW - you have to guess what the examiner thinks the rule is. If you ask beforehand, the examiner will simply tell you to obey what the instructor thinks the rule is. GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR GUESS TODAY!"
_


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## ColinJ (13 Apr 2018)

Another solution to the problem ... My niece should keep taking and failing the test, entering the name of the examiner and which option she took in a spreadsheet. Eventually, she will have gone through all of the available examiners and will know what their individual rules are. Assuming that they don't change their mind from one test to another, then she will know what to do the next time!

(But then they fail her 1 km further on based on their individual interpretation of some other 'rule'!)


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## mjr (15 Apr 2018)

[QUOTE 5212868, member: 9609"]Try Option "C" the next time, they will be impressed with the hand brake turn at the end of the dual.
View attachment 404117
[/QUOTE]
Option "D" - straight line from the starting point to the exit, ignoring kerbs, islands, markings and so on. Seems popular in Norfolk with MTB riders commuting home.


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