# M to H conversion



## CEBEP (7 Nov 2021)

First of all I'm really happy I could find a forum with so many Brompton enthusiasts and such a friendly community. It took me some time to come here 

For a few weeks already I'm proud owner of Black Edition Explore Flame Lacquer. Such an awesome bike! We have very limited availability of Bromptons in Istanbul, probably as in other areas of the world as well due to covid pandemics. So it was the only one available in this color and all models of any type or color in Istanbul were M. I'm 185cm, about 96kg and am having bad back. As far as I know my hight is at the recommended upper limit for M stems and I believe H stem will offer better ride quality for me and help with my back. Since I can't try it I don't know for sure if it will be the right choice as I will have to order an H stem + longer cables. Not a cheap drill.

My question is is there any bad sides to riding H instead of M? Any handling differences? I feel it will be the right thing to do but would appreciate any advise.


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## CEBEP (7 Nov 2021)

Cheaper alternative could probably be the handlebar extention/riser

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/161141554368











However there are few issues here:

1. this item is miraculously on eBay only and since PayPal is banned in Turkey I can't order it. Anyone has any idea where else this item can be ordered? 

2. 25.4mm thick part of M handlebar is not all that wide, about 3cm. Then it tapers down. I'm not sure this 3cm will be wide enough for adaptor rings to grip. 

Is this bad idea?


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## Kell (7 Nov 2021)

Welcome.

I'm not going to be much help here, but as far as I was aware, the M handlebars are the same as the H handlebars in terms of rise - it's the length of the stem that makes the H taller.

That was certainly the case when I bought mine, but mine's the older style (2015).

I think it's still the case now, but wouldn't swear to it.

However, I think the current style of handlebar is lower than the old style, so it may be possible to swap the new one for old to give additional rise.

Current:






Older: 






@berlinonaut will definitely know. I'm certain plenty of others will too.

I have seen other people use those adapters (or ones like them) so hopefully someone will be along to give you a better understanding.


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## CEBEP (7 Nov 2021)

Apologies, I wrote in wrong. It's H stem of course. I noticed the mistake but apparently wasn't able to change the post


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## Tenkaykev (7 Nov 2021)

Kell said:


> Welcome.
> 
> I'm not going to be much help here, but as far as I was aware, the M handlebars are the same as the H handlebars in terms of rise - it's the length of the stem that makes the H taller.
> 
> ...



I was going to use the Aberhalo riser in combination with a Joseph Kuosac mid rise bar on one of my Brommies. I’d previously purchased several items from the bay which all came from China or Taiwan and it all arrived without issue or any excess charges to pay. Having read several accounts of delays and excess handling / import charges I’m reluctant now to take the risk.


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## Schwinnsta (7 Nov 2021)

I think you need H stem. Otherwise, bar too low in the folded position. You can check this by checking how much clearance in the folded position you have now. I converted my 2014 to an H .lt cost but it was worth it.


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## CEBEP (7 Nov 2021)

Kell said:


> Welcome.
> 
> I'm not going to be much help here, but as far as I was aware, the M handlebars are the same as the H handlebars in terms of rise - it's the length of the stem that makes the H taller.
> 
> ...



Great idea, thanks! As far as I know 2020 Brompton M handlebar is 53cm wide and rise is 13cm. Pre 2017 handlebars have 15cm rise which will give only 2cm difference. Joseph Kuosac full rise handlebar is even lower. However there are third party manufacturers on Aliexpress offering 170cm rise which is 4cm difference and very close to the difference between M and H type stems. Do you think I will still need to order cables for H stem to accommodate 4cm rise difference?


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## berlinonaut (7 Nov 2021)

CEBEP said:


> the only one available in this color and all models of any type or color in Istanbul were M. I'm 185cm, about 96kg and am having bad back. As far as I know my hight is at the recommended upper limit for M stems and I believe H stem will offer better ride quality for me and help with my back.


Not necessarily - especially if you have a bad back when cycling it is important not to put all the weight on your lower back but distribute the weight between bars and saddle. In general, a too upright riding position should therefor be avoided. To do this will also help with building up muscles in your back an this way lower the pain. I am slightly taller than you (just) and find a H-model clearly too high for me. On the other hand I did not like M and clearly not S for longer rides. 


CEBEP said:


> Since I can't try it I don't know for sure if it will be the right choice as I will have to order an H stem + longer cables. Not a cheap drill.


The H stem is best for using and trying out different handlebars. As the folding hinge is slightly higher you can use bars of different heights and widths with it.


CEBEP said:


> My question is is there any bad sides to riding H instead of M? Any handling differences? I feel it will be the right thing to do but would appreciate any advise.


As said above I am not sure if a stock H will suit your needs. Alternative bars may. 



CEBEP said:


> Cheaper alternative could probably be the handlebar extention/riser


You cannot use this with a M stem as the bike will not fold any more and furthermore the AberHallo will not fit an M/H-bar as well.



CEBEP said:


> Is this bad idea?


Unfortunately yes.


Kell said:


> the M handlebars are the same as the H handlebars in terms of rise - it's the length of the stem that makes the H taller.
> 
> That was certainly the case when I bought mine, but mine's the older style (2015).
> 
> I think it's still the case now, but wouldn't swear to it.


still true. Just the height ratio between stems and bars changed slightly but not the overall height and M and H bars are still identical. 

On most of my Bromptons I do use the older H stem before 2017 along with the newer M/H bars from 2017 on. This way I do achieve a height between stock M and stock H which I like. After using this setup for years already I am now into a new experiment: On one of my Bromptons I do use the new H stem (2017 onwards) along with a slight riser bar that is way wider than stock. Overall height is ~110cm, so about what M offers. buth width is ~60cm, so massively wider than stock. I like - at the moment my most ridden Brompton. However: With the M stem you are locked into the factory bars if you do not want to go lower. Going higher and/or wider hinders the fold.


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## CEBEP (7 Nov 2021)

Schwinnsta said:


> I think you need H stem. Otherwise, bar too low in the folded position. You can check this by checking how much clearance in the folded position you have now. I converted my 2014 to an H .lt cost but it was worth it.



You mean H stem has pivoting mechanism higher than M stem? If that's the case adding spacer or handlebar may end up handlebar ends hitting the ground?


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## CEBEP (7 Nov 2021)

*@berlinonaut *
Many thanks, very valuable info. I'm appy I didn't make mistake buying that extender. It's also clear that if I want to experiment, I'll need to invest into the H stem + cables. Different handlebars are widely available.


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## berlinonaut (7 Nov 2021)

CEBEP said:


> You mean H stem has pivoting mechanism higher than M stem?


Yes


CEBEP said:


> If that's the case adding spacer or handlebar may end up handlebar ends hitting the ground?


With the M stem an the original bars, yes. But it will not fit the original bars anyway. You can use the Aberhallo or similar risers with straight bars like i.e. the Brompton S-bar. But this will not lead to your desired outcome of a bar higher than M.


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## CEBEP (8 Nov 2021)

berlinonaut said:


> Not necessarily - especially if you have a bad back when cycling it is important not to put all the weight on your lower back but distribute the weight between bars and saddle. In general, a too upright riding position should therefor be avoided. To do this will also help with building up muscles in your back an this way lower the pain.



Do you think suspended saddle mount will help bad back too? They will have much wider range of motion than Bromptons suspension. If yes what could be the disadvantages of installing it? Thanks.


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## rogerzilla (8 Nov 2021)

Can you buy an H stem in Turkey? We can't buy the part in the UK - we can only pay a dealer to supply and fit one. It is, apparently, too difficult a job for mere mortals.


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## berlinonaut (8 Nov 2021)

rogerzilla said:


> Can you buy an H stem in Turkey? We can't buy the part in the UK - we can only pay a dealer to supply and fit one. It is, apparently, too difficult a job for mere mortals.


As said many times before: This seems to be an almost exclusive UK issue for the time being.


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## berlinonaut (8 Nov 2021)

CEBEP said:


> Do you think suspended saddle mount will help bad back too? They will have much wider range of motion than Bromptons suspension. If yes what could be the disadvantages of installing it? Thanks.


I'm not a huge fan of suspended seat posts either. They will eat up power (that then cannot be used to push you forwards) and - as with a suspended seat post the distance between saddle and pedal varies - they are an ergonomical nightmare. "Bad back" can mean a lot of things and have a lot of root causes. With some a suspended seat post may be able to linder pain, for most it is just counterproductive. Thus I would consider them as a kind of last exit if nothing else helps. Before that I'd clearly have an ergonomic bike fit and a bit of training to build up muscles. In most cases this will not only be sufficient and in many cases also help to get rid of the back pain also when not on the bike (through the building up muscles in the back when sitting on the bike ergonomically correct). A suspended seat post won't help you with that but at best linder pain when on the bike. So it deals with lindering symptoms only and at a price instead of making things better.


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## CEBEP (8 Nov 2021)

rogerzilla said:


> Can you buy an H stem in Turkey? We can't buy the part in the UK - we can only pay a dealer to supply and fit one. It is, apparently, too difficult a job for mere mortals.



Same here, only from authorized dealers.


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## Kell (8 Nov 2021)

This is why it’s good to get lots of opinions. 

Completely forgot to mention the folding hinge on the H stem.


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## Schwinnsta (8 Nov 2021)

rogerzilla said:


> Can you buy an H stem in Turkey? We can't buy the part in the UK - we can only pay a dealer to supply and fit one. It is, apparently, too difficult a job for mere mortals.


Actually it goes on like a normal quil stem. You can use the stem catch to do the alignment. It can be accomplished by mere mortals.


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## rogerzilla (8 Nov 2021)

Schwinnsta said:


> Actually it goes on like a normal quil stem. You can use the stem catch to do the alignment. It can be accomplished by mere mortals.


I was being sarcastic. Brompton do it to give their dealers work.


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## CEBEP (8 Nov 2021)

Will H handlebar stem from 2014 model suit my 2020 one and mine M to his 2014? Found a guy who sells his H6L and may consider to swap stem bars.


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## berlinonaut (8 Nov 2021)

CEBEP said:


> Will H handlebar stem from 2014 model suit my 2020 one and mine M to his 2014? Found a guy who sells his H6L and may consider to swap stem bars.


The H stem before 2017 is ~2cm lower than the one after 2017 and same goes for the M-stem. All of those stems will fit any Brompton since 1991. With the newer M-Stem from your bike you will need the new handlebars as well. As @Kell showed earlier in this thread the older bars were slightly higher and will not play well with the newer stem in terms of folding. Newer bars with older stems on the other hand are no problem. If you swap your stem to the older H-stem including the older H-bars you will have a tough job fitting the newer shifters (also from 2017 on) onto the old bars - it works, but very tight and only in more or less one single position. I'd recommend getting the newer bars onto the old stem (which in your case would mean buying a replacement bar, as after the swap with the other guy both stems would do best with the newer bars).


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## ExBrit (8 Nov 2021)

CEBEP said:


> Cheaper alternative could probably be the handlebar extention/riser
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/161141554368
> 
> ...


I have two of these that I'm not using. They provide a 4cm rise and they do work with M bars. They are your cheapest option. They don't lift the bars as far as the H bars but maybe they will be good enough. You will, however, lose a little bit of bar space for mounting computers etc. You don't need to replace any cables and, if you simply raise the handlebars with them, they don't affect the fold. If you use them to push the handlebars forward, they will quickly affect the fold. Now you just need to find a way to get one. Hope this helps.

Update: They are called Satori Aberhallo and they can also be found on AliExpress and other places.


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## CEBEP (8 Nov 2021)

ExBrit said:


> I have two of these that I'm not using. They provide a 4cm rise and they do work with M bars. They are your cheapest option. They don't lift the bars as far as the H bars but maybe they will be good enough. You will, however, lose a little bit of bar space for mounting computers etc. You don't need to replace any cables and, if you simply raise the handlebars with them, they don't affect the fold. If you use them to push the handlebars forward, they will quickly affect the fold. Now you just need to find a way to get one. Hope this helps.
> 
> Update: They are called Satori Aberhallo and they can also be found on AliExpress and other places.



Thanks for the feedback. Unfortunately I don't have even 4cm clearance between my handlebar edge to the ground when folded, so unless I'll get an H stem, unfortunately there is no room to extend.


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## ExBrit (8 Nov 2021)

CEBEP said:


> Thanks for the feedback. Unfortunately I don't have even 4cm clearance between my handlebar edge to the ground when folded, so unless I'll get an H stem, unfortunately there is no room to extend.


That's a shame. I was able to fold with them (just).


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## CEBEP (8 Nov 2021)

berlinonaut said:


> The H stem before 2017 is ~2cm lower than the one after 2017 and same goes for the M-stem. All of those stems will fit any Brompton since 1991. With the newer M-Stem from your bike you will need the new handlebars as well. As @Kell showed earlier in this thread the older bars were slightly higher and will not play well with the newer stem in terms of folding. Newer bars with older stems on the other hand are no problem. If you swap your stem to the older H-stem including the older H-bars you will have a tough job fitting the newer shifters (also from 2017 on) onto the old bars - it works, but very tight and only in more or less one single position. I'd recommend getting the newer bars onto the old stem (which in your case would mean buying a replacement bar, as after the swap with the other guy both stems would do best with the newer bars).



I asked my local dealer to quote and he said it will be so expensive that I should simply forget it  
I should probably keep using my M bar and see how it will go. BTW do you have any experience with Matumura Kohki Scrowave Suspension Spring? Based on reviews it seems to provide better suspension compared to stock brick.


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## CEBEP (8 Nov 2021)

ExBrit said:


> That's a shame. I was able to fold with them (just).



It is a shame. I was really hoping it will work out.

I have Brooks Ergo handlebars which are a bit longer than stock adding to the width. Plus I have a handbag mirror on the left handle, brining it even closer to the ground when folded. And I can't shorten the bar as breakes already push to the internal bend of the handlebar. And this is considering that I've installed a rack + 4 eazy wheels.


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## berlinonaut (8 Nov 2021)

ExBrit said:


> I have two of these that I'm not using. They provide a 4cm rise and they do work with M bars.


Did you try them with M-bars on a M-stem and the bike still folds? Would be good to know. What make are these risers? Most of the risers clamp on the bars in an area where the bars are slimming down besides the clamp area, so these will not fit.


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## ExBrit (8 Nov 2021)

CEBEP said:


> It is a shame. I was really hoping it will work out.
> 
> I have Brooks Ergo handlebars which are a bit longer than stock adding to the width. Plus I have a handbag mirror on the left handle, brining it even closer to the ground when folded. And I can't shorten the bar as breakes already push to the internal bend of the handlebar. And this is considering that I've installed a rack + 4 eazy wheels.
> 
> View attachment 617004


You're going to have the same problem with H bars, I suspect. Good thing you didn't spent all that money on them.
I started with M + risers, then M bars, then switched to S + risers, then to S alone and I'm very comfortable despite being about your size. Perhaps time will help.


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## CEBEP (8 Nov 2021)

ExBrit said:


> You're going to have the same problem with H bars, I suspect. Good thing you didn't spent all that money on them.
> I started with M + risers, then M bars, then switched to S + risers, then to S alone and I'm very comfortable despite being about your size. Perhaps time will help.



My understanding is that H stem adds length under the hinge of the stem hence rising folding mechanism up which also means rising the whole handlebar assembly above the ground once folded. H stems have same handlebars as M, why wouldn't it work?

Though I'll definitely use M for the time being to make sure I absolutely need a longer stem.


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## ExBrit (8 Nov 2021)

berlinonaut said:


> Did you try them with M-bars on a M-stem and the bike still folds? Would be good to know. What make are these risers? Most of the risers clamp on the bars in an area where the bars are slimming down besides the clamp area, so these will not fit.


The extensions have a bit of a dog-leg in them. This gives you some control over how far apart the clamps are so it's quite easy to get them to clamp to the 1" diameter portion of the handlebar. You can barely fold the bike if you push the handlebars forward a little bit, which is what I wanted anyway. They are well made and don't compromise handling at all. The risers are made by Satori and the model name is Aberhallo.


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## ExBrit (8 Nov 2021)

CEBEP said:


> My understanding is that H stem adds length under the hinge of the stem hence rising folding mechanism up which also means rising the whole handlebar assembly above the ground once folded. H stems have same handlebars as M, why wouldn't it work?
> 
> Though I'll definitely use M for the time being to make sure I absolutely need a longer stem.


I didn't know that. It might work, then.


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## Kell (8 Nov 2021)

I think, as you say, it's probably best ot use it for a bit to make sure you're not spending money unnecessarily.

All things are very different now, but I went the other way to you. On my test ride, I found the S to be too low and the M to be a bit high. So with some (a lot of) help from this forum I ended up buying an H type and a set of non-OEM low riser bars. I ended up with a bar height somewhere in between an S and an M. I did measure it once, but I've no idea what I did with that info. 

They're wider than Brompton bars, so I cut them down a bit and added bar ends. That was the reason I went for the H to begin with, to give me the most chance of the ends clearing the floor.

Which they do - just.


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## CEBEP (10 Nov 2021)

I wander if anyone had any experience ordering handlebar stems from Aliexpress? Apparently they sell lots of titanium but also steel ones as well.


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## CEBEP (17 Jan 2022)

Well, it seems I'm lucky. I asked local dealer to offer new customers to swap handlebar stems if the H one will be too high for them. Availability of models here in Turkey is very limited so customers have to buy what's available if they like the color. It seems like they have an incoming flame laquer black edition with H stem that customer is willing to swap for M. So I'll only need to pay service charge to swap the stems and cables and nothing for parts.

I'll first use it with my handlebar. If it's too high I can upgrade handlebar with lower rise. If hight is fine then I'm thinking if it would make sence to upgrade handlebar with a wider one granted it will still fold? I think wider handlebar will improve handling and stability but not sure by how much and if it's worth the investment. I also read somewhere on the internet that some handlebar models have bar ends slightly angled toward the rider providing more natural grip angle.

Also would users recommend looking at titanium handlebars? I'm not a weight decrease freak but removing some weight wouldn't hurt. I'm mostly concerned with ti flex though. While I find flex of my ti seatpost useful for me, as it provides extra suspension, I'm not sure how flex in the handlebar will affect riding. Would aluminum be better option?


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## berlinonaut (17 Jan 2022)

CEBEP said:


> It seems like they have an incoming flame laquer black edition with H stem that customer is willing to swap for M. So I'll only need to pay service charge to swap the stems and cables and nothing for parts.


Congrats! You are indeed lucky here! 


CEBEP said:


> I'll first use it with my handlebar. If hight is fine then I'm thinking if it would make sence to upgrade handlebar with a wider one granted it will still fold? I think wider handlebar will improve handling and stability but not sure by how much.


If you go wider you'll very quickly have to go lower as well to maintain the fold. Going wider and lower changes the handling massively, in my eyes to the better. It obviously depends from your body shape (size, width of your shoulders i.e.) what combination works best but in general a wider bar makes the bike far less nervous and stock H is too high ergonomically for most persons anyway. At the same time the H stem offers the most possibilies to experiment with different bars. On my touring Brompton i.e. I do run a post 2017 H stem along with a lightly rised and cut down MTB bar at a width of a tad over 60cm (including the Ergon grips, in my case GR2) . That's more or less about 10cm wider than stock. Dramatic effect, I love it. On the negative obviously you are now a bit more limited to filter through thick traffic on the bike, but that's not too relevant for me usually, especially not on the touring Bromton.
Opposite experience: My first S-Brompton had the old, slimmer S-bars from factory, that were just about 47cm wide. I found the bike far too nervous and not much fun to ride. A year or two after that Brompton enhanced the width of the S-bars, so I was possibly not the only one.  


CEBEP said:


> Also would users recommend looking at titanium handlebars? I'm not a weight decrease freak but removing some weight wouldn't heart. I'm most concerned with ti flex through. While I find flex of my ti seatpost useful for me as it provides extra suspension, I'm not sure how flex in the handlebar will affect riding. Would aluminum be better option?


On the Brompton most ti-bars as replacement for the stock bars do in fact not reduce weight (either not at all or not relevantly). Therefor I never saw the need for ti-bars or a possible advantage of them. Flex in the handlebars is nothing you will like I can promise you. In case you are missing front suspension and are willing to invest considerable money: Velospring grips do get very positive user feedback. Personally I am happy enough with Ergons.


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## CEBEP (17 Jan 2022)

@berlinonaut thanks for info. I never thought there are handlebars with suspension, putting price point aside I didn't find any user reviews in English. 

I'm 185cm high, don't know what my shoulder width is though. What do you think would be the right handlebar hight/width for me? Any handlebar brands designed specifically for Brompton I should look at? I head Joseph Kuosac have good ergonomic design of the handlebar for Brompton with bar ends bend towards the rider offering more natural grip. 

I checked Aliexpress for some ideas and there lots of models for Brompton. Here are few available. Which do you think would be suitable one? These are pretty expensive to order few and check which one would fit which would basically mean to dispose of the rest purchased.


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## CEBEP (18 Jan 2022)

Can anyone share experience with Joseph Kuosac mid raise handlebar? Assuming I'll be able to keep it wider which should be a right match for me and not cause any issues with cables on H stem. Or should I go with full raise? Is there a way I can calculate the hight difference between my current M bar setup and H stem + JK mid raise and full raise?


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## berlinonaut (18 Jan 2022)

CEBEP said:


> @berlinonaut
> I'm 185cm high, don't know what my shoulder width is though. What do you think would be the right handlebar hight/width for me?


This is really personal taste in the end and ergonmically dependent from your personal body dimensions. As a rule of thumb the bars should be at max level with the saddle, but preferably lower. Personally I have the bars usually about 10cm lower than the saddle, more is not uncommon (especially if you are more sporty than me). So bar height is basically a derivate from saddle height and this again depends frm the length of your legs. What are you currently missing? This may give an indication in which direction to change. You should be prepared to possibly try out a bunch of different bar setups in terms of height and width until you finally find the best personal setup. I fiddeled around for many years until I found what I thought was my perfect setup (pre 2017 H-stem with post 2017 M/H-bars), rode it happily for a bunch of years until l aquired a used Brompton last year from someone that has more or less my dimensions and had fitted a wider but lower bar - which turned out to be even better and more comfy for me. To get en entry to the topic this pdf may help: https://junik-hpv.de/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Bike_Ergonomics_for_All_People.pdf It is a couple of years old already and a tiny subset of Juliane's book on the topic but as her book is not available in English possibly the best entry point.



CEBEP said:


> Any handlebar brands designed specifically for Brompton I should look at? I head Joseph Kuosac have good ergonomic design of the handlebar for Brompton with bar ends bend towards the rider offering more natural grip.


Again: What are you missing? JK bars are fine and worth the money in my eyes, just they should fit your needs to be really worth buying.



CEBEP said:


> I checked Aliexpress for some ideas and there lots of models for Brompton. Here are few available. Which do you think would be suitable one? These are pretty expensive to order few and check which one would fit which would basically mean to dispose of the rest purchased.
> 
> View attachment 627035
> 
> ...


Number 1 and 2 will not fit the H stem, number 3 and 4 will. You do not have to limit yourself to bars designed for the Brompton - almost any bar that has the correct clamping diameter will fit. Obviously not all will support the fold (i.e. racing bars won't), but the whole range of MTB bars is of interest. They can be cut down regarding width, you only have to care to leave enough room for the grips on the flat part.


CEBEP said:


> Can anyone share experience with Joseph Kuosac mid raise handlebar? Assuming I'll be able to keep it wider which should be a right match for me and not cause any issues with cables on H stem. Or should I go with full raise? Is there a way I can calculate the hight difference between my current M bar setup and H stem + JK mid raise and full raise?


The current Brompton M/H bars offer about 125-133mm rise, depending from how you measure it. More rise is barely possible, way less is recommended and sometimes even necessary if you go massively wider than stock. Stock handlebar height on the M model is 1012mm from the ground, on the H model 1072mm. The H stem height is bar height + handlebar rise. Based on these basic parameters you are free to play with various bars to achieve whatever fits you best in terms of height and width. Stock width is I think about 52cm, but that you can easily measure yourself on your bike.


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## CEBEP (18 Jan 2022)

@berlinonaut thanks. With H stem I'm trying to achieve two things:

1. see if I can ride comfortably with higher handlebar to ease load of my lower back 

2. have more options to go wider, as H stem allows to accommodate the fold 

What I want to achieve: I will first use it with stock handlebar on H stem and see how comfortable it will be. However it's impossible to understand how riding stability will improve and how comfortable a wider handlebar will be, also considering JK bars have high angle towards the rider. 

If wider grip will translate to lower rise, which makes sense considering humans body geometry, I wander how my handlebar on H stem would translate to JK wider handlebar high rise or mid raise. 

So I have to buy one to try. And these are not particularly cheap considering shipping + imprint tax which will put the bar's price to about $75 or more. That's what I'm trying to understand, which of the JK to consider.


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## Tenkaykev (18 Jan 2022)

CEBEP said:


> Can anyone share experience with Joseph Kuosac mid raise handlebar? Assuming I'll be able to keep it wider which should be a right match for me and not cause any issues with cables on H stem. Or should I go with full raise? Is there a way I can calculate the hight difference between my current M bar setup and H stem + JK mid raise and full raise?


Ive got a 2015 "M" Brompton and I replaced the standard bars with the equivalent JK Bars so I could fit 130mm Ergon grips. This worked well, the JK bars have etched markings to help with trimming the bars. I trimmed them asymmetrically so the bar didn't hit the floor on folding.
I also have the JK mid rise bar that I was planning on fitting to my 2019 "S" Brompton but I've not got around to that yet. Having said all that I think the JK bars are a good product and a worthy upgrade.


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## CEBEP (18 Jan 2022)

@Tenkaykev thanks. Can you say that JK bars higher 12 degree bend angle towards rider really makes a difference in riding quality and comfort?


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## Tenkaykev (18 Jan 2022)

It’s subtle, but certainly rides well, especially with my Ergon GP2 grips. Being slightly wider reduces “ twitchiness “ 
I’d certainly do the same again.


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## berlinonaut (18 Jan 2022)

CEBEP said:


> @berlinonaut thanks. With H stem I'm trying to achieve two things:
> 1. see if I can ride comfortably with higher handlebar to ease load of my lower back


Higher than M: Possible. As high as stock H: possibly not, as H is too high for almost everyone.


CEBEP said:


> So I have to buy one to try. And these are not particularly cheap considering shipping + imprint tax which will put the bar's price to about $75 or more. That's what I'm trying to understand, which of the JK to consider.


The JK mid rise is a good product in my opinion and I considered it not to be overly expensive (rather the opposite). In the UK it is "just" GBP 25, so either your source is expensive or cost add up until it is with you. The width of 600mm is perfect to cut to own needs. But I'd rather see the bar on the S-stem than on the H at 100mm rise as the difference to stock H ist not too big and the outcome therefor maybe still too high. According to JK themselves the midrise has just 71mm rise - this would be pretty perfect in my eyes: https://josephkuosac.com/product/steering-parts/handlebar/handlebar-o25-4mm/ You have to find out by testing on your own. I do run only a 50mm riser on mine (and would admittedly probably not have gone for it on my own - it was fitted to the bike when I bought it and works perfectly well).


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## Tenkaykev (18 Jan 2022)

berlinonaut said:


> Higher than M: Possible. As high as stock H: possibly not, as H is too high for almost everyone.
> 
> The JK mid rise is a good product in my opinion and I considered it not to be overly expensive (rather the opposite). In the UK it is "just" GBP 25, so either your source is expensive or cost add up until it is with you. The width of 600mm is perfect to cut to own needs. But I'd rather see the bar on the S-stem than on the H at 100mm rise as the difference to stock H ist not too big and the outcome therefor maybe still too high. According to JK themselves the midrise has just 71mm rise - this would be pretty perfect in my eyes: https://josephkuosac.com/product/steering-parts/handlebar/handlebar-o25-4mm/ You have to find out by testing on your own. I do run only a 50mm riser on mine (and would admittedly probably not have gone for it on my own - it was fitted to the bike when I bought it and works perfectly well).


I may have mentioned previously that my day to day bike is a 2015 M frame in Orange/ Back. I don’t often ride my 2019 S frame, but when I do it initially feels as though I’m falling over the handlebars though I quickly get used to it. That’s the reason I got the JK midrise, to make the S frame a little more upright while still maintaining a “ sporty “ look. I’ve not swapped the bars yet as part of me doesn’t want the faff of fitting new cables, and wanting to preserve the looks of the bike ( CHPT3)


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## Kell (18 Jan 2022)

CEBEP said:


> @berlinonaut thanks. With H stem I'm trying to achieve two things:
> 
> 1. see if I can ride comfortably with higher handlebar to ease load of my lower back
> 
> 2. have more options to go wider, as H stem allows to accommodate the fold



@berlinonaut has already posted a link to his friend's excellent work on ergonomics on bikes. It's sometimes counterintuitive to what you might expect. i.e. sitting more upright (too upright) is likely to cause more problems with your back, rather than fewer. 

Now I'm not an expert, and nor would I claim to be, but if you're interested in resolving the problem without spending a shitload of cash, then it might be a good place to start. 

It's tough, because there are recommendations in there that go against other things I've read online (like she doesn't like SQLabs saddles) but it's a free way to get started. 

I think from memory that she recommends no more than 10cm higher for your bars compared to your saddle height, but the ideal thing being (again from memory) achieving a 90 degree angle between your arm and your bike. 

Point two - I cut down some MTB bars on an (older) H stem. They're wider than Brompton bars, but not massively. I just found it more comfortable. I didn't want to leave them too wide as it reduces your ability to filter through traffic. But I think in terms of being able to fold the bike, I could have left them a little wider.

I will measure them and report back...


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## berlinonaut (18 Jan 2022)

Kell said:


> (like she doesn't like SQLabs saddles


On that record she does have a really strong opinion , personally I am not so sure or radical - I think it is fair to have a different one if one likes SQ-lab saddles. I do not own one and never did, so - a rare happening - I do not have an opinion of my own here. What I would agree with is that using only the sit bone distance to recommend a saddle like SQLab does it clearly not a good or sufficient way. It may work to a degree but clearly not always or optimal. And as they built their whole system on that Juliane does not like them too much. The more as she had people visiting her, suffering heavily with their SQLab and no longer with the saddle she recommended to them. Juliane does indiviual pressure messurements with various saddles - obviously time consuming and not a fast, cheap and scalable business model for the mass market like the SQLab way of working. But a pretty perfect outcome. Interestingly for my butt it turned out that the Selle Anatomica and the Terry Arteria GT turned out to be pretty identical in terms of pressure distribution and behavior - both were equally good, despite being totally different constructions and looking totally different. A lot of others were quickly ruled out because of the inacceptable fit.


Kell said:


> I think from memory that she recommends no more than 10cm higher for your bars compared to your saddle height


It really depends. There is what fits most people and there are the exceptions like here in the middle of the page: https://junik-hpv.de/arbeitsbereiche/ergonomie-und-spezialanfertigung/ (there's an example of a pressure measurement, too).


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## CEBEP (18 Jan 2022)

@berlinonaut thanks. SJS charges £45 flat for delivery to Turkey which is insane. There are better options on ebay but still will come to about $70-75 delivered.


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## Kell (18 Jan 2022)

Ok. So my bars are 58cm (not including the plugs).


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## CEBEP (19 Jan 2022)

Thanks @Kell


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## Kell (19 Jan 2022)

Can’t remember if I already posted these:

But this it what it looks like from my POV and how it folds. 

Without the bar ends on, I reckon I could have left them a little wider and it still would have folded. 

All that said, when I’m on a long straight and trying to ‘press on’ I actually hold the gear levers and try and tuck my elbows in.


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## CEBEP (19 Jan 2022)

@Kell what's that cable coming out of water bottle if you don't mind me asking? Battery pack for front light?

Regarding hight I'll have even more room for fold as I have a rack and eazy wheels which also lift the bike up once folded. So I should get good clearance for wider bar. Though I think I'll go for mid raise.


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## shingwell (19 Jan 2022)

CEBEP said:


> @Kell what's that cable coming out of water bottle if you don't mind me asking?


You press the blue button on the handlebars and it squirts any predestrians who get in the way.


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