# "Road Tax"



## oldroadman (19 Jan 2012)

Can we settle this once and for all. It's Vehicle Excise Duty.
Yes, it's a tax - on ownership of a vehicle which the owner wishes to place on the public highway.
It has nothing whatsoever to do with paying for roads, or entitling the use of any roads.

We also pay National Insurance.
That's a tax too, on employment, for both employer and employee.
But no-one calls it "Work Tax", or "Job Tax".

There is no "Road Tax", because it's hard to get tax from an object which has no NI number, and no address. Anyone tried to send a tax bill to "M1, Leeds and London"?
The "Road Tax" was a pre-WW2 thing which in the government changed to VED in the 30's.

So to the cry of "you don't pay road tax", the correct and polite response is "neither do you, you pay VED".
Something to get the numpties thinking, as you ride off through the traffic holdup they are stuck in!


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## Bicycle (19 Jan 2012)

But my cars have tax discs on the windscreen....

Isn't that for road tax?


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## MrHappyCyclist (19 Jan 2012)

oldroadman said:


> So to the cry of "you don't pay road tax", the correct and polite response is "neither do you, you pay VED".
> Something to get the numpties thinking, as you ride off through the traffic holdup they are stuck in!


It doesn't work. Given that it's actually GVED, then "you pay pollution tax" would be better, but that doesn't work either. When someone has a brain smaller than one of his gonads (are we allowed to say gonad?), you can't make a rational argument with him, (or ovary if it's a woman).


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## yello (19 Jan 2012)

You are right orm... but can you really be bothered arguing the toss over finer detail?

Popularly, it's called road tax. Accept that and if you really want to argue it further, then raise the other issues (it goes into the general tax pot, everyone pays for roads etc etc etc).


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## Peteaud (19 Jan 2012)

Its still a tax tho


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## jayonabike (19 Jan 2012)

I do pay road tax, bloody £244.75p today for 6 months


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## snorri (19 Jan 2012)

jayonabike said:


> I do pay road tax, bloody £244.75p today for 6 months


 
Amazing. There are still some great bargains available in UK plc


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## Peteaud (19 Jan 2012)

jayonabike said:


> I do pay road tax, bloody £244.75p today for 6 months


 
what do you drive, a tank?


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## jayonabike (19 Jan 2012)

Almost. A Volvo v70. Its the engine size that does it. 5 cylinder 2.5 Litre petrol turbo. But its a luxury in life I enjoy and I work hard enough so why not.


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## Alembicbassman (19 Jan 2012)

VED is not pay as you drive which p*sses me off. My Vectra 1.8 is 177 g/Km CO2. I pay £210 a year VED and do 10000km (mostly motorway at 60 mph) between 6am and 2pm commuting when there's no traffic, I don't use the car for leisure (that's what my bike is for).

I could buy a Fiat 500 Twin Air with an 875cc engine producing 95g/Km CO2 which is £0 a year VED, but if an owner of this did 20000Km a year they would produce more CO2 than me. They wouldn't even have to do 20000KM if they lived in a city crawling along in rush hour traffic.

Scrap the VED system and put the money on petrol, would suit me fine.


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## youngoldbloke (19 Jan 2012)

Oh no - here we go again ..... of course if you drive a small-engined low-emission vehicle you are exempt from VED anyway - as would be a bicycle. So what is the point anyway? However, it is not helpful for a cyclist to continue to refer to VED as 'road tax'. Let's set a good example and use the correct terminology.


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## MrHappyCyclist (19 Jan 2012)

Alembicbassman said:


> VED is not pay as you drive which p*sses me off. My Vectra 1.8 is 177 g/Km CO2. I pay £210 a year VED and do 10000km (mostly motorway at 60 mph) between 6am and 2pm commuting when there's no traffic, I don't use the car for leisure (that's what my bike is for).
> I could buy a Fiat 500 Twin Air with an 875cc engine producing 95g/Km CO2 which is £0 a year VED, but if an owner of this did 20000Km a year they would produce more CO2 than me. They wouldn't even have to do 20000KM if they lived in a city crawling along in rush hour traffic.
> Scrap the VED system and put the money on petrol, would suit me fine.


You're missing the point. It is about encouraging people to buy cleaner cars irrespective of what mileage they do, putting consumer pressure onto the manufacturers to innovate in areas like engine efficiency.

As you suggest, there is also duty on fuel, which is the one that should discourage people from doing a lot of miles.


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## oldfatfool (19 Jan 2012)

Originally a road fund license HMRC still refer to it as road tax


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## User269 (19 Jan 2012)

Roads are paid for out of council tax. Motorways and some trunk roads are paid out of general taxation, of which VED (car tax) represents a tiny proportion.
Cyclists pay council tax, which pays for the roads. In any case, the roads are for all of us to use, not just motorists.


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## Alembicbassman (19 Jan 2012)

A car sat on the driveway doing 0 miles is cleaner than a low emission vehicle crawling along the North Circular at 8am. A huge amount of energy is required to convert raw/recycled materials into a brand new car, encouraging people to buy new cars is only benefitting the retailers and exchequer in VAT and registration fees. Li-ion batteries are also quite toxic and may need replacing every 5 years or so. If you're going to tax CO2 then tax dairy farmers, cows produce a huge amount of CO2 and milk is cheaper than petrol.


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## youngoldbloke (19 Jan 2012)

The DVLA now refer to 'it' as 'vehicle tax', or 'car tax'.


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## Mugshot (19 Jan 2012)

oldroadman said:


> So to the cry of "you don't pay road tax", the correct and polite response is "neither do you, you pay VED".
> Something to get the numpties thinking, as you ride off through the traffic holdup they are stuck in!


 
No point I'm sorry oldroadman, as has been pointed out above, the argument is futile.
The correct reply to "you don't pay road tax", " get off the road", "use the cyclepath", "you clanger" (think that's what he said) etc, etc, is ;
"Half past five mate." With a cheery wave


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## MrHappyCyclist (19 Jan 2012)

Oh dear, didn't want a big debate, but:


Alembicbassman said:


> A car sat on the driveway doing 0 miles is cleaner than a low emission vehicle crawling along the North Circular at 8am.


"Cleaner car" means producing lower emissions under the same conditions, including distance.



Alembicbassman said:


> A huge amount of energy is required to convert raw/recycled materials into a brand new car, encouraging people to buy new cars is only benefitting the retailers and exchequer in VAT and registration fees.


Who said anything about buying new? Anyway, the point is about buying a cleaner car in preference to buying a less clean one.



Alembicbassman said:


> Li-ion batteries are also quite toxic and may need replacing every 5 years or so.


Who said anything about buying batteries? My car has a 105bhp diesel engine (with DPF), and I pay £30 per annum GVED.



Alembicbassman said:


> If you're going to tax CO2 then tax dairy farmers, cows produce a huge amount of CO2 and milk is cheaper than petrol.


No they don't, they produce a huge amount of methane, but what's that got to do with Vehicle Excise Duty?


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## 400bhp (19 Jan 2012)

Mugshot said:


> No point I'm sorry oldroadman, as has been pointed out above, the argument is futile.
> The correct reply to "you don't pay road tax", " get off the road", "use the cyclepath", "you clanger" (think that's what he said) etc, etc, is ;
> "Half past five mate." With a cheery wave


 
I prefer fcuk off you twunt.


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## Mugshot (19 Jan 2012)

400bhp said:


> I prefer fcuk off you twunt.


I've used that one too, but I felt rather guilty about it afterwards, I was also a little scared in case they were waiting around the corner for me


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## 400bhp (19 Jan 2012)

Ah, bollox to the lot of em. "I AM TRAFFFIC"


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## Alembicbassman (19 Jan 2012)

Sorry, cows do produce methane which happens to be 20x more effective as a greenhouse gas than CO2

Deisel no good for me as I only do 6k miles a year, the higher cost of fuel, servicing and DPF clogging issues aren't worth the saving that I'd make on VED.

I doubt that the £2000 my current car is worth would buy anything that would provide a massive VED saving anyway.

I often see the hybrid Prius and Lexus RX models screaming up the M1 at 90 mph using only their petrol powerplants hauling 50kg worth of unused Li-ion batteries. These models are exempt from VED and London Charging

A Prius used more fuel than a V10 BMW M5 on a Top Gear motorway speed type test.

I think the civil servants that draft the laws are living on another planet.

May buy a 1971 Ford Cortina 2.0 GXL - VED exempt and owes no debt to the CO2 phobics


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## al78 (19 Jan 2012)

Alembicbassman said:


> Sorry, cows do produce methane which happens to be 20x more effective as a greenhouse gas than CO2


 
But methane is a reactive gas and has a much shorter lifetime in the atmosphere, unlike CO2 which, to a first approximation, lasts forever.


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## col (19 Jan 2012)

jayonabike said:


> Almost. A Volvo v70. Its the engine size that does it. 5 cylinder 2.5 Litre petrol turbo. But its a luxury in life I enjoy and I work hard enough so why not.


 Blimey a bus is 300 a year.


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## Scilly Suffolk (20 Jan 2012)

Alembicbassman said:


> ... Scrap the VED system and put the money on petrol, would suit me fine.


I'm probably missing something obvious, but sticking the VED on fuel has always struck me as a good idea.

The more miles you drive, the more you pay. The less efficient your engine is, the more you pay. Isn't this what is meant by a "progressive" tax?

No need to classify vehicles as this or that and no need for the bureaucracy associated with issuing the discs.

But the greatest benefit must surely be, that by putting it on the pump price,it is unavoidable: no more "tax" dodgers!

It is also feasible to include the cost of compulsory Third Party liability insurance too (underwritten by a state insurance company, such as the Motor Insurers' Bureau) which would solve the problem of uninsured drivers too.

But like I said I'm probably missing something obvious...


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## mr_hippo (20 Jan 2012)

youngoldbloke said:


> However, it is not helpful for a cyclist to continue to refer to VED as 'road tax'. Let's set a good example and use the correct terminology.


In my pocket, I have a few bob which is unusual because I only have Thai Baht; no £.s.d. and no £.p. 'A few bob' to me and many others means a small amount of money just as road tax means that disc displayed in the car window.
'A few bob' and 'road tax' are now part of our language so live with it. If you have time on your hands, please inform all motor manufacturers, motoring journalists and anyone else to stop quoting mpg figures - fuel has been sold in litres for a long time.


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## subaqua (20 Jan 2012)

Jimmy The Whiskers said:


> I'm probably missing something obvious, but sticking the VED on fuel has always struck me as a good idea.
> 
> The more miles you drive, the more you pay. The less efficient your engine is, the more you pay. Isn't this what is meant by a "progressive" tax?
> 
> ...


 

this is a POV i have had for a long time .


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## youngoldbloke (20 Jan 2012)

mr_hippo said:


> In my pocket, I have a few bob which is unusual because I only have Thai Baht; no £.s.d. and no £.p. 'A few bob' to me and many others means a small amount of money just as road tax means that disc displayed in the car window.
> 'A few bob' and 'road tax' are now part of our language so live with it. If you have time on your hands, please inform all motor manufacturers, motoring journalists and anyone else to stop quoting mpg figures - fuel has been sold in litres for a long time.


 
- but you don't actually believe that you have a small number of Roberts in your pocket, do you? Whereas a large number of motorists and ill informed others - including some cyclists - appear to believe that VED, or vehicle tax, is used to pay specifically for roads, and therefore all road users should pay. The incorrect use of the expression 'Road Tax' serves to reinforce this belief.


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## Bicycle (20 Jan 2012)

I blat around the twisty backroads of the three Counties in a naughty, rorty, bright yellow 1961 roadster lent to me by my wife.

It is zero-rated for VED. If a cyclist gets in my way me up, I shall yell *"Out of my way! I don't pay Road tax!"*

I'd do so now, but it's raining and the bloody thing needs an MOT.


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## mr_hippo (20 Jan 2012)

youngoldbloke said:


> - but you don't actually believe that you have a small number of Roberts in your pocket, do you?


I have just checked my pockets, I have 640 Baht which is about £13 so l have more than a few bob.


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## User269 (20 Jan 2012)

Mugshot said:


> No point I'm sorry oldroadman, as has been pointed out above, the argument is futile.
> The correct reply to "you don't pay road tax", " get off the road", "use the cyclepath", "you clanger" (think that's what he said) etc, etc, is ;
> "Half past five mate." With a cheery wave


 
......or just tell them
Roads are paid for out of council tax. Motorways and some trunk roads are paid out of general taxation, of which VED (car tax) represents a tiny proportion.
Cyclists pay council tax, which pays for the roads. In any case, the roads are for all of us to use, not just motorists.
​


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## Mugshot (20 Jan 2012)

User269 said:


> ......or just tell them
> Roads are paid for out of council tax. Motorways and some trunk roads are paid out of general taxation, of which VED (car tax) represents a tiny proportion.​Cyclists pay council tax, which pays for the roads. In any case, the roads are for all of us to use, not just motorists.​​​


I shall remember to do that next time someone hollers at me as they drive past, I'm not sure they'll have a chance to hear it all so I'll have some leaflets printed up which I can sling through peoples windows.


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## DiddlyDodds (20 Jan 2012)

jayonabike said:


> I do pay road tax, bloody £244.75p today for 6 months


 
What do you drive , a car transporter !


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## subaqua (20 Jan 2012)

DiddlyDodds said:


> What do you drive , a car transporter !


 
depending on its suspension and weight it could be about that cost !!

my currnt vehicle which did about 6K miles last year is nearly £500 to VED ! would much rather pay it on the fuel


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## sirmy (20 Jan 2012)

Roads aren't paid for by council tax. Each council receives a settlement from the government. They add to this the money raised from the council tax. It is therefore not possible to say exactly where money spent on the roads comes from. It generally best to say that roads are paid for by general taxation rather than any specific tax


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## col (20 Jan 2012)

[QUOTE 1688917, member: 45"]Stop calling me Bob![/quote]
How about dick?


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## brokenflipflop (21 Jan 2012)

Jimmy The Whiskers said:


> I'm probably missing something obvious, but sticking the VED on fuel has always struck me as a good idea.
> 
> The more miles you drive, the more you pay. The less efficient your engine is, the more you pay. Isn't this what is meant by a "progressive" tax?
> 
> ...


I'm just guessing and I'm not very clever but with the current car tax system the government probably gets quite an accurate projection as to the revenue they get each year. It probably wouldn't be very palatable for them to leave this revenue in the hands of the people who buy petrol because they wouldn't be able to anticipate what revenue they'd get and they may get a lot less due to the perceived increased fuel prices putting people off usage of their vehicle. Also they obviously have 2 tax incomes at the moment, VED _and_ fuel duty and they probably see just one as a step backwards for taxation.


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## youngoldbloke (21 Jan 2012)

But I thought we were supposed to reduce our car usage - so wouldn't a huge increase in fuel price be 'a good thing'. What is going to happen to the tax take when everyone is driving low emission/electric cars or using public transport? (Or riding bikes).


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## Matthew_T (21 Jan 2012)

If you think about this logically then it would make sense to have tax on bikes because it wouldnt change a thing.

The amount of VED you pay depends on the emmisions of your vehicle, thats why electric cars dont pay anything. On that basis, if bicycles were charged for VED, we would not pay anything because we emmit no emmisions (apart from the odd fart). So I dont understand why people argue about not charging bikes VED because even if the government did, it wouldnt change anything (just create a lot of unneccesary paperwork).

Another thing to think about is that if someone in a G-Wiz passes you and shouts "Get off the f*cking road, you don't pat road tax!" (They would have time to say all that), then you could simply increase your speed to 25mph which the electric turd is limited to and explain that neither does the twonk driving the little peice of roadkill.


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## User269 (21 Jan 2012)

sirmy said:


> Roads aren't paid for by council tax. Each council receives a settlement from the government. They add to this the money raised from the council tax. It is therefore not possible to say exactly where money spent on the roads comes from. It generally best to say that roads are paid for by general taxation rather than any specific tax


 
Roads are paid for from council tax. Read the documents that come with your annual council tax bill. Or ask your MP. Or ask your local council.


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## Matthew_T (21 Jan 2012)

1690875 said:


> But who would pay to administer this?


 Us of course....Silly.


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## TheDoctor (21 Jan 2012)

Just as an aside - it's utterly feasible to have a state-provided third party liability scheme.
NZ does it. You can buy extra cover, but you don't have to.
So yes, whack that on fuel too.

EDIT Occurs to me that that gets rid of the 'All cyclists should have insurance' argument too!!


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## fenlandpsychocyclist (21 Jan 2012)

Bu99er the road tax/ved/whatever ... its the tax i've paid on the petrol that bugs me!

My 4.4litre v8, averages 24mpg. I've done 11000 miles in 2011 meaning i've certainly paid for my "use" of the roads.


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## fenlandpsychocyclist (21 Jan 2012)

1690940 said:


> 1/10


 
Hehehe!! Just messing around.


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## brokenflipflop (21 Jan 2012)

fenlandpsychocyclist said:


> Bu99er the road tax/ved/whatever ... its the tax i've paid on the petrol that bugs me!
> 
> My 4.4litre v8, averages 24mpg. I've done 11000 miles in 2011 meaning i've certainly paid for my "use" of the roads.


At risk of a sarcastic come back from my homeboy Adrian....you and me both and just to upset my homeboy even more, the majority of my miles were pointless, unnecessary journey's of less than 5 miles


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## TheDoctor (21 Jan 2012)

I do wonder quite what you're doing on a cycling forum, BFF.
Is this some kind of elaborate wind-up? If so, I don't really get it.


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## brokenflipflop (22 Jan 2012)

TheDoctor said:


> I do wonder quite what you're doing on a cycling forum, BFF.
> Is this some kind of elaborate wind-up? If so, I don't really get it.


Call me whacko doctor but I come on a cycling forum because I cycle.

I also drive a vehicle quite a lot which is obviously a bit unpalatable to some people on here but I am in the majority as there are a few million of us driving vehicles if you hadn't noticed. 

It's really just that simple.


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## brokenflipflop (22 Jan 2012)

1691238 said:


> <1/10


And there it is


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## classic33 (22 Jan 2012)

mr_hippo said:


> In my pocket, I have a few bob which is unusual because I only have Thai Baht; no £.s.d. and no £.p. 'A few bob' to me and many others means a small amount of money just as road tax means that disc displayed in the car window.
> *'A few bob' and 'road tax' are now part of our language so live with it.* If you have time on your hands, please inform all motor manufacturers, motoring journalists and anyone else to stop quoting mpg figures - fuel has been sold in litres for a long time.


 
I can remember pre-decimilisation, as could a few other on here. Problem is how many 80-90 year olds are on here. Old enough to remember Road Tax as a tax.

As for getting cycles taxed I seem to remember reading that in order to implement & run the scheme it would cost every motorist(who actually pays) an extra £50 per year. How would that work out then.
25% was a figure given by the goverment for the number of vehicles on the road, liable to pay VED & insurance that have neither. Cost on the insurance side was recently given as £300,000,000 lost & made up by those who actually pay.

Does "Road Tax" give those who pay it the right to use the pavements. No longer satisfied with owning the roads, they want the pavements as well.


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## Bicycle (22 Jan 2012)

This debate tickles me, but I think people may be getting exercised about null issues.

Very few drivers (and none I know personally) really believe that VED or Road Tax is actually used to pay for the building and upkeep of the road network. Some knuckleheads may shout it through open windows as they pass, but that's probably because they are too dull witted to think of anything else to say. Let it go.

Yes, motorists are taxed until the pips squesk, but rightly so. Cars make a lot of mess and cause a lot of damage. If the taxes were insanely high, we'd see fewer cars on the road. We don't. People keep driving, so taxation (though it hurts to say it) is probably not too high. I am an enthusiastic driver and we have three cars, so I'm not writing from behind a screen of car-hatred. Quite the opposite.

Some motorists might feel jolly cross about the cost of running their vehicle and might feel the need to get shouty about it. Cyclists who are whipping past them in traffic present an easy pressure vent for all their frustration. Yelling about Road Tax at the odd passing cyclist doesn't constitute a rational debate about how the Government raises funds and distributes them. It's just some turnip letting off steam. Let it go.

Taxing bicycles? Really, it's neither practical nor productive. If I were in charge, they'd be zero-rated for VAT at point of sale, but that's just me.

Getting riled by people referring to Road Tax? I call it Road Tax. Everyone I know does. I refer to my V5 as my logbook. Almost everyone does. I refer to my 'PIN Number', even though I know that's tautology. I think of my Council Charge as Rates. Many people do. People refer to Continental Europe and 'Europe' as though we somehow live elsewhere.... It really isn't a big deal. Let it go. 

As a cyclist of 40+ years in the UK, France, ex-Yugoslavia and elsewhere I've been jolly lucky: Other road users are rarely horrid to me. Few have ever felt the need to yell at me or lecture me on how the government distributes tax revenue.

Almost 50% of the population are below average intelligence. Let them have their shouty moan about matters they don't understand. 

There are several thousand miles of lovely tarmac out there, just waiting to be ridden on. Enjoy them. I know I do.






And I pay for them too, through Road Tax.


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## yello (22 Jan 2012)

> If you think about this logically then it would make sense to have tax on bikes because it wouldnt change a thing.


 
That's logical? A change that makes no difference?




Bicycle said:


> Getting riled by people referring to Road Tax? I call it Road Tax. Everyone I know does. I refer to my V5 as my logbook. Almost everyone does. I refer to my 'PIN Number', even though I know that's tautology. I think of my Council Charge as Rates. Many people do. People refer to Continental Europe and 'Europe' as though we somehow live elsewhere.... It really isn't a big deal. Let it go.


 


+1 Bicycle. I selected the above bit but it could have equally been anything you wrote. I really do enjoy your posts.


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## brokenflipflop (22 Jan 2012)

Are you defending me there Adrian or asking someone to slag me off in more detail ?


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## yello (22 Jan 2012)

Or an elaborate guess even!


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## TheDoctor (22 Jan 2012)

brokenflipflop said:


> Are you defending me there Adrian or asking someone to slag me off in more detail ?


 
I'm not trying to slag you off - I was asking a question, and you answered it.
If I was slagging someone off I'd hope they'd be in no doubt about it!!


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## ufkacbln (22 Jan 2012)

Matthew_T said:


> If you think about this logically then it would make sense to have tax on bikes because it wouldnt change a thing.
> 
> The amount of VED you pay depends on the emmisions of your vehicle, thats why electric cars dont pay anything. On that basis, if bicycles were charged for VED, we would not pay anything because we emmit no emmisions (apart from the odd fart). So I dont understand why people argue about not charging bikes VED because even if the government did, it wouldnt change anything (just create a lot of unneccesary paperwork).
> 
> Another thing to think about is that if someone in a G-Wiz passes you and shouts "Get off the f*cking road, you don't pat road tax!" (They would have time to say all that), then you could simply increase your speed to 25mph which the electric turd is limited to and explain that neither does the twonk driving the little peice of roadkill.


 
Had an intersting discussion on this with a guy at work.... after he started I simply asked how much they should pay?

He reckoned about £50!
Then ask if that is for all Band A vehicles, and point out that it is more than Band A, B or C vehicles, therefore these would have to rise in a similar way!

Then of course this escalates.

Finally point out that he is actually arguing for a rise for all VED bands!


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## ufkacbln (22 Jan 2012)

Bicycle said:


> Yes, motorists are taxed until the pips squesk, but rightly so.


 
The biggest myth of all - they are in fact *very heavily subsidised!*

Depending on sources, the total cost of running a car has dropped dramatically and in terms of income and disposable income is cheaper than at any time in the last fifteen to twenty years.

The cost of a vehicle on the road is again disputable depending on sources and whether you should include accidents, Policing and damage from Pollution. However the estimates are that the running of each vehicle in the UK is between £500 and £1000 per vehicle.

Finally we have a £2billion pound subsidy of insurance where payments form household and life insurance policies are diverted to fill the hole between income and expenditure on motor vehicle insurance.


To pay their fair share of costs each vehicle (depending on estimates) should be paying a further £2,000 to £3000 per year


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## 400bhp (22 Jan 2012)

Bicycle said:


> Almost 50% of the population are below average intelligence.


 
Are you sure about that?

Think about it...


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## Bicycle (22 Jan 2012)

Cunobelin said:


> The biggest myth of all - they are in fact *very heavily subsidised!*
> 
> Depending on sources, the total cost of running a car has dropped dramatically and in terms of income and disposable income is cheaper than at any time in the last fifteen to twenty years.


 
*I imagine the myths surrounding Greek deities Zeus, Aphrodite and similar might be bigger than that... But seriously:*

*Many who run a motor vehicle in the UK and have tracked their costs over the years will find the above assertion odd. For me and my family it has not dropped. Quite the reverse. We are now paying £5.20 or more for a gallon of fuel. In 1992 it was £2.09. VED has increased for most vehicles since 1992 by more than the rate of inflation. Similarly, annual service costs have increased by more than inflation. Oddly, tyre prices have not (for us) but these represent a tiny proportion of our annual motoring costs. Whether calculated as a proprtion of family income or in real terms, car ownership (mileage unchanged) has become significantly more expensive in the past 20 years.*

*Purchase price (cars) has fallen in real terms since 1992, but used value has fallen by the same proportion. This has not had a beneficial effect (net depreciation) on real-terms costs for us. *

*I have fallen into a significantly cheaper insurance age-band since 1992, moved to a safer postcode, have fewer points and do a lower-risk job. Yet my annual premium is higher in real terms. As is my wife's.*

*I do not for a moment weep about this. Running a car is a luxury and it is right that I should pay. It is right that the pips should squeak - and they do. As I said before, I support high taxation for motorists. *

*Unless the source for your data has changed from doing 80,000 urban miles a year in a 288GTO to doing 3,000 rural miles a year in a Nissan Leaf, I find your assertion unlikely. If it is based on your own experiences, I should be glad to hear where the principal savings have been made. *

*I'd be interested to hear from anyone else whose real-terms motoring costs have dropped in the past 20 years, other than through significantly changed circumstances (as in above example).  *


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## youngoldbloke (22 Jan 2012)

Cunobelin said:


> Had an intersting discussion on this with a guy at work.... after he started I simply asked how much they should pay?
> 
> He reckoned about £50!
> Then ask if that is for all Band A vehicles, and point out that it is more than Band A, B or C vehicles, therefore these would have to rise in a similar way!
> ...


 
- but WHY does he think that? Isn't he simply ignorant of the whole structure of VED charges. Aren't those calling for VED on bicycles really calling for a punitive, spiteful, form of registration, in the hope that it would reduce the number of cyclists on the roads getting in their way? What about the effect on childrens cycling? Does anyone seriously think a registration scheme is practical.


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## classic33 (22 Jan 2012)

youngoldbloke said:


> - but WHY does he think that? Isn't he simply ignorant of the whole structure of VED charges. Aren't those calling for VED on bicycles really calling for a punitive, spiteful, form of registration, in the hope that it would reduce the number of cyclists on the roads getting in their way? What about the effect on childrens cycling? Does anyone seriously think a registration scheme is practical.


 

Why don't we all give it a try & find out. If we all submit online forms on the sme day, at roughly the same time who knows. Or we could keep up a steady stream of them throughout the day.

Local DVLA office went nuts trying to locate the correct paperwork.


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## brokenflipflop (22 Jan 2012)

1691490 said:


> Why don't you take a wild guess?


Defending me. Thanks homeboy


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## ufkacbln (22 Jan 2012)

The source is the Department for Transport who looked at average costs. It effectively proves that gfor the average motorist the cost of their motoring is effectively less than 85% of the 1997 cost!








As for my savings -


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## mr_hippo (22 Jan 2012)

*WARNING*​I will be using the phrase 'road tax'; dear reader, you can do one of two things - learn to live with it or insert your own phrase!​​I have always thought that scrapping rod tax on vehicles and increasing fuel prices was a good idea but there is a 'but' and it is a big one!​Most goods are now shipped by road. If road tax were to be scrapped and fuel increased, the haulage industry may 'forget' that they do not pay road tax and only look at the increased fuel bill. Their costs have gone up so they increase their charges and who will pay for those increases? No not the retail industry but you the consumer!​What are the options? Private vehicles don't pay it but HGVs do? Rebates for haulage and bus companies if the extra fuel bill exceeds the cost of their old road tax? It will be a nightmare to sort out.​​


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## youngoldbloke (23 Jan 2012)

If you must use the expression, use quotes, as you have in your first usage. I will use the CORRECT term - 'VED', or 'car tax', or 'vehicle tax'. As used by the DVLA.


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## Bicycle (23 Jan 2012)

Cunobelin said:


> Well, I have to accept the graphics.
> 
> Posters on this forum frequently bang on about things and then go schtum when their word is refuted with any authority or data.
> 
> ...


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## benb (23 Jan 2012)

Cunobelin said:


> The source is the Department for Transport who looked at average costs. It effectively proves that gfor the average motorist the cost of their motoring is effectively less than 85% of the 1997 cost!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
That's great - do you have a link to the source?


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## User269 (23 Jan 2012)

oldroadman said:


> Can we settle this once and for all........


 
Apparently not.

Good OP though, and of course, quite right.



User269 said:


> Roads are paid for out of council tax. Motorways and some trunk roads are paid out of general taxation, of which VED (car tax) represents a tiny proportion.


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## ufkacbln (24 Jan 2012)

benb said:


> That's great - do you have a link to the source?


 
Yes and No...


The actual graph itself was from an article in the The Economist and this is one I have on Mendeley.

If you want further detail then look at the DfT Annual reports which give lots of detail on Transport, costs etc but are heavy reading.


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## ufkacbln (24 Jan 2012)

You do need to be careful with the "cost of motoring" though.
If you look at the RAC for instance they claim that:



> The cost of running a car increased to £94 from £65 a month
> The real cost of buying a new car increased to £498 from £277 a month
> The cost of petrol increased to 117.9p a litre from 38p
> The cost of diesel increased to 130.9pper litre from 38.4p


So yes the "cost" has risen dramatically, but so has everything else, and it is the comparison that is important.

The same report bythe RAC then goes on to state that comparing their own figures from 2008 and 1988:



> The total cost of motoring since 1988 is well behind the overall increase in the cost of living:
> The RAC analysis also looked at buying a car, running a car and the cost of fuel in turn, and found that, in real terms, compared with 1988:
> 
> It is 24% cheaper to buy a car
> ...


 
THeir conclusion illustrates the real issue though:



> The analysis for the 20th RAC Report on Motoring shows that although our perception and reality differ over the 20 years, on a day to day basis the spiralling cost of fuel *makes us feel that the costs of motoring have increased significantly.*


 (My emphasis)

The chasm between conception and reality is the big issue!


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## Matthew_T (24 Jan 2012)

I had a little chat with a woman at some traffic lights who had passed me way too close. It went like this:

Me stopping at lights: You were a bit close to me then.
Her: Well there is a million pound cycle path there which has been paid for by cycle tax.
Me: What do you mean cycle tax?
Her: You should be on the path which has been paid for.
Me: I dont have to use it.
Her: Well you should use it.
Me: I dont have to use it, I am allowed on the road. It is up to you to overtake me safely.
(The lights change and we start moving)
Her: You need to use your brain.
Me: I dont need to use my brain, you need to use your brain and overtake me safely! Learn to drive you stupid *Expletive removed*.

I wont bother posting the vid because there isnt much in it.


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## subaqua (25 Jan 2012)

I had my first road taxer today some genetic retard from East london pointing at his disc. i did the old halfpast six and then turn left at the chicken line which just left him looking even more confused than he did.


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## youngoldbloke (25 Jan 2012)

Interesting and relevant item:
http://road.cc/content/news/51144-minister-roads-insists-perpetuating-road-tax-myth


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## Matthew_T (25 Jan 2012)

1695557 said:


> Are you sure he wasn't just asking you to check that it was valid for him?


 Haha, you should have put your thumbs up and said "its in date, dont worry".


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## Bicycle (25 Jan 2012)

1695557 said:


> Are you sure he wasn't just asking you to check that it was valid for him?


 
It is more likely that he was trying to point out that as a motorist, he paid Road Tax. A serious-minded motorist will be aware of when his Road tax expires and will usually re-Tax his car in good time.

How can I possibly know this?

I pay road Tax, of course!


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## classic33 (25 Jan 2012)

£20 to the first person on here that can get a UK "Road Tax" form & get it completed.

VED Form will not do.
Form must clearly state Road Tax & make no mention of VED. Either in the form Title, subtitle or on the form itself. The exception on not mentioning VED being unless it referes to a seperate form to the one you are filling in.

To claim the £20, the following is required as proof
Copies of the front & rear of the completed, accepted form, & a Road Tax disc. Which must clearly state "Road Tax".

Anyone up for it? Time limit on this is two weeks from the 26th January 2012. (Just in case this gets reopened at a later date).


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## mr_hippo (25 Jan 2012)

classic33 said:


> £20 to the first person on here that can get a UK "Road Tax" form & get it completed.....


Are you trying to be silly? I will ask you a question. You are in desperate need of cash, you have none, no food for a few days. Yoe see me, only know me as a friend of a friend type of thing. You tell me of your situation and I put my hand in my pocket and say "I'll give you a few bob." Would you accept or would you say there we do not use 'bob' any more?


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## classic33 (25 Jan 2012)

mr_hippo said:


> Are you trying to be silly? I will ask you a question. You are in desperate need of cash, you have none, no food for a few days. Yoe see me, only know me as a friend of a friend type of thing. You tell me of your situation and I put my hand in my pocket and say "I'll give you a few bob." Would you accept or would you say there we do not use 'bob' any more?


 

Is that you saying that we don't have "Road Tax"? And no I'm not being silly.

If you are that confident that you can claim the £20 why not put your money where your mouth is & double it to £40.
Round this neck 'woods we use it
http://www.bbc.co.uk/northyorkshire/voices2005/glossary/glossary.shtml

http://www.yorkshire-dialect.org/humour/yorkshire_humour.htm

Got change for this by any chance


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## youngoldbloke (26 Jan 2012)

There isn't too much confusion about 'a few bob' although very few young people know that it is/was a slang term for a shilling, and not money in general. On the other hand there is obviously still a lot of confusion about "road tax". OK, "road tax" is a slang term for VED or car tax - the problem is the implication that the 'few bob' collected is spent specifically on roads, and that only those who pay it are entitled to use those roads, which, as we should all know by now, it is not, etc etc etc. Language can and does change, some expressions fall out of use, or become unacceptable.


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## youngoldbloke (26 Jan 2012)

http://ipayroadtax.com/bloody-tax-dodgers/bloody-tax-dodgers-theres-millions-of-em/

and support from 'the enemy'

http://www.carbuzz.co.uk/blog/Road-Tax-Doesnt-Exist


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