# Is Carbon that much better than aluminium ?



## Banjo (26 May 2011)

My Scott Speedster is probably classed as an entry level bike by most people but its the best bike I have ever had and I am still loving it after nearly 2 years and several thousand miles.

I dont want to replace it yet but still like studying the bikes available etc .It seems to me that if you are happy with ally you can get a much better specced bike for the same money. Is Carbon really that much of an improvement in ride quality?


----------



## threebikesmcginty (26 May 2011)

Folk with carbon bikes say it is, I still love my alu bike and think it's a great ride. All my others are steel, if I was getting a fancy bike I'd go for titanium.


----------



## martint235 (26 May 2011)

I don't think I'll buy another carbon bike. I seem to spend all my time petrified I'm going to break it.


----------



## ianrauk (26 May 2011)

It's a veritable can of worms you are opening up there Banjo.

I have a Specialized Roubaix Elite and a Specialized Secteur Elite. One is carbon, one is alu.
They both share the same geometry. 
The difference in riding though is chalk and cheese. The carbon is far more forgiving on the road and a much comfier ride then the alu.
It did take me a little while to get used to the harsher alu ride after being spoilt with the carbon.


----------



## threebikesmcginty (26 May 2011)

Uncle Mort said:


> I've always liked Sheldon Brown's comment on frame materials:



The Queen might not be the kingpin of the drug trade but she was knocking out some decent Lebanese blonde hash and Maui Wowee last time I saw her.


----------



## Andy_R (26 May 2011)

threebikesmcginty said:


> The Queen might not be the kingpin of the drug trade but she was knocking out some decent Lebanese blonde hash and Maui Wowee last time I saw her.



Have you been hanging round the workshop when they've been epoxying again?


----------



## fossyant (26 May 2011)

Like any frame material, you can get good and bad in handling - all depends upon geomerty, carbon layup etc. etc.

If you want one, get one as a n+1. It's up to you.


----------



## addictfreak (26 May 2011)

ianrauk said:


> It's a veritable can of worms you are opening up there Banjo.
> 
> I have a Specialized Roubaix Elite and a Specialized Secteur Elite. One is carbon, one is alu.
> They both share the same geometry.
> ...



I agree with Ian 100%.

I have an alu Focus and a carbon scott, the rides are both different but both excellent really. The Carbon frame is much more comfortable and seems to absorb more of the lumps and bumps.

Theres certainly no need to be afraid of breaking a carbon frame, in normal use they are as good as alu.


----------



## Alessandro Petacchi (26 May 2011)

addictfreak said:


> I agree with Ian 100%.
> 
> I have an alu Focus and a carbon scott, the rides are both different but both excellent really. The Carbon frame is much more comfortable and seems to absorb more of the lumps and bumps.
> 
> Theres certainly no need to be afraid of breaking a carbon frame, in normal use they are as good as alu.




I own an aluminium Pinarello and a carbon Scott CR1,the Scott gives a very smooth ride.As for my steel bikes they are nice in their own way.


----------



## wheres_my_beard (26 May 2011)

So carbon is more comfortable & forgiving and gives a smoother ride... all of which sounds nice.

What's the downside to carbon in any given frame (if everything except the material is the same as an equivalent aluminium/ titanium frame)?


----------



## ianrauk (26 May 2011)

wheres_my_beard said:


> So carbon is more comfortable & forgiving and gives a smoother ride... all of which sounds nice.
> 
> What's the downside to carbon in any given frame (if everything except the material is the same as an equivalent aluminium/ titanium frame)?



I have yet to find a downside.


----------



## numbnuts (26 May 2011)

I think carbon has a place, but not on bikes


----------



## smokeysmoo (26 May 2011)

martint235 said:


> I don't think I'll buy another carbon bike. I seem to spend all my time petrified I'm going to break it.


+1 I've recently bought a Cannondale CAAD10, yes it's aluminium, but it rides equally as well as my Focus Cayo, and with wheelset I put on it the overall package is far better IMO. 
The confidence I have on the CAAD at speed is something I've never felt on a carbon bike. IMO, carbon has it's place, but it's not on the pot holed streets of GB.


----------



## Svendo (26 May 2011)

Some people talk about failure modes and hidden damage and delamination when discussing carbon frames.


----------



## slowmotion (26 May 2011)

ianrauk said:


> I have yet to find a downside.



Cost?


----------



## ianrauk (26 May 2011)

numbnuts said:


> I think carbon has a place, but not on bikes


----------



## potsy (26 May 2011)

What are the advantages of Titanium over carbon then? 
I am contemplating getting a really nice bike later in the year or early next year, it will be my weekend/leisure bike and won't be used for commutes.


----------



## ianrauk (26 May 2011)

slowmotion said:


> Cost?



Is that really a downside? Prices for carbon frames are coming down are they not?


----------



## ianrauk (26 May 2011)

smokeysmoo said:


> +1 I've recently bought a Cannondale CAAD10, yes it's aluminium, but it rides equally as well as my Focus Cayo, and with wheelset I put on it the overall package is far better IMO.
> The confidence I have on the CAAD at speed is something I've never felt on a carbon bike. IMO, carbon has it's place, but it's not on the pot holed streets of GB.



But you're probably no where near the same size as that big norvern oaf..


----------



## ianrauk (26 May 2011)

Svendo said:


> Some people talk about failure modes and hidden damage and delamination when discussing carbon frames.





Seeing as the majority of carbon frames have lifetime warranty's I wouldn't have though failure modes, hidden damage and delamination should worry anybody.


----------



## threebikesmcginty (26 May 2011)

potsy said:


> What are the advantages of Titanium over carbon then?



Don't get a plazzy one Pots - that fancy carbon might be ok for squash bats but not bicycles. I'd rather have a bike made from chicken wire and papier mache.


----------



## Rohloff_Brompton_Rider (26 May 2011)

Uncle Mort said:


> So apart from being lighter, being more comfortable, being more forgiving and giving a smoother ride, *just what has carbon ever done for us?*





nearly killed me when my £5k scott genius ltd snapped.

nice website for carbon fibre bike riders.



www.bustedcarbon.com


----------



## potsy (26 May 2011)

ianrauk said:


> But you're probably no where near the same size as that big norvern oaf..






bromptonfb said:


> nearly killed me when my £5k scott genius ltd snapped.
> 
> 
> www.bustedcarbon.com


----------



## ianrauk (26 May 2011)

Did I not say this thread would open up a can of worms...


----------



## slowmotion (26 May 2011)

ianrauk said:


> Is that really a downside? Prices for carbon frames are coming down are they not?



I'm just sick with envy, that's all. I bought the Secteur and couldn't justify another £700 for the Roubaix, much as I would have loved to.


----------



## threebikesmcginty (26 May 2011)

We're only jealous. 

Tell you who's got a nice carbon bike, topcat1, that white PX he's got is lovely.


----------



## Rohloff_Brompton_Rider (26 May 2011)

ianrauk said:


> Seeing as the majority of carbon frames have lifetime warranty's I wouldn't have though failure modes,* hidden damage and delamination should worry anybody*.




scott genius ltd full monty carbon fibre rig, full six inch of suspension front and back, the frame snapped going down a very gentle sloped mini valley(?). the wheel stopped, i kept going into an unconscious heap. fractured eye socket and two big f*** off gouges down the side of my head where it had fit between 2 stumps. luckily, i wasn't wearing a helmet, if i was, my head wouldn't have fit through the gap and my neck would have been broken.

frame replaced under lifetime warranty, no apology. promptly sold. i won't ride carbon now, far far too scared. my cx has cf forks, i didn't know when i bought it as they are sprayed same colour as the frame. i will probably sell it.


----------



## addictfreak (26 May 2011)

bromptonfb said:


> scott genius ltd full monty carbon fibre rig, full six inch of suspension front and back, the frame snapped going down a very gentle sloped mini valley(?). the wheel stopped, i kept going into an unconscious heap. fractured eye socket and two big f*** off gouges down the side of my head where it had fit between 2 stumps. luckily, i wasn't wearing a helmet, if i was, my head wouldn't have fit through the gap and my neck would have been broken.
> 
> frame replaced under lifetime warranty, no apology. promptly sold. i won't ride carbon now, far far too scared. my cx has cf forks, i didn't know when i bought it as they are sprayed same colour as the frame. i will probably sell it.



Nice one, you managed to have a go at carbon and helmets in the same paragraph


----------



## asterix (26 May 2011)

Carbon bikes look nice but I prefer steel: experience over a few years tells me it is very strong and won't let me down.


----------



## tyred (26 May 2011)

addictfreak said:


> Nice one, you managed to have a go at carbon and helmets in the same paragraph


But had he used an appropriate lube on his chain at the time and was he using clipless pedals?


----------



## potsy (26 May 2011)

tyred said:


> But had he used an appropriate lube on his chain at the time and was he using clipless pedals?



He also thinks mudguards are for girls


----------



## screenman (26 May 2011)

I would have thought if it was good enough for formula I then it should be OK on bikes. I had a steel snap in half when I was 7 still got a scar on my head to prove it, if I had a helmet on I would have got away without a mark.


----------



## Zoiders (26 May 2011)

Carbon has it's place of course depending on what you want in a bike, I do think that the major manufacturers are missing a trick by not offering carbon frames that are slightly more simple and over built and capable of taking guards or a light rack.

Instead it all seems to err on the side of being high and race orientated when they could be churning out really good winter commuters and training frames that withstand road salt and corrosion, but then again where is the money in offering a frame that doesn't rust/corrode and lasts you for 20 years no matter how wet or salty it gets?


----------



## Rohloff_Brompton_Rider (26 May 2011)

Zoiders said:


> Carbon has it's place of course depending on what you want in a bike, I do think that the major manufacturers are missing a trick by not offering carbon frames that are slightly more simple and over built and capable of taking guards or a light rack.
> 
> Instead it all seems to err on the side of being high and race orientated when they could be churning out really good winter commuters and training frames that withstand road salt and corrosion, but then again where is the money in offering a frame that doesn't rust/corrode and lasts you for 20 years no matter how wet or salty it gets?



apparently they can according to scott usa, but they would weigh more than aluminium.


----------



## Zoiders (26 May 2011)

bromptonfb said:


> <BR>apparently they can according to scott usa, but they would weigh more than aluminium. <FONT color=#000000><FONT face="arial, sans-serif"><FONT size=2></FONT></FONT></FONT><BR>


Not by much I would bet, it's more the utility and service life that you could get out of it that seems to be something that manufacturers are avoiding in favour of more finite values.


----------



## smokeysmoo (26 May 2011)

ianrauk said:


> But you're probably no where near the same size as that big norvern oaf..


6' 5" and 18+ stone


----------



## smokeysmoo (26 May 2011)

screenman said:


> I would have thought if it was good enough for formula I then it should be OK on bikes. I had a steel snap in half when I was 7 still got a scar on my head to prove it, *if I had a helmet on I would have got away without a mark.
> *



Don't start


----------



## david k (26 May 2011)

this thread has put me off carbon bikes.


----------



## smokeysmoo (26 May 2011)

This thread's not going to help me sell my Focus Izalco is it  
It's a brand new frameset built up with full Dura-Ace 7900 if anyone's interested


----------



## screenman (26 May 2011)

I didn't.


----------



## smokeysmoo (26 May 2011)

screenman said:


> I didn't.



Joke - felt another helmet thread coming on in response to your post


----------



## screenman (26 May 2011)

Just added the smiley I should have put in when I wrote it.



Carbon fibre helmets, now that is the way to go, not forgetting the shoes as well.


----------



## Banjo (26 May 2011)

Considering almost every Ally bike has a carbon fork I wouldnt let any scare stories put me off a full carbon bike.


----------



## martint235 (26 May 2011)

ianrauk said:


> But you're probably no where near the same size as that big norvern oaf..



Is it me or Potsy to whom you are referring?


----------



## david k (26 May 2011)

i think is essential to wear a helmet with a carbon fibre bike

even if your not riding it, you cannot be too careful


----------



## Globalti (26 May 2011)

I have fitted some £85 carbon rigid forks on my Global titanium mountain bike and they ride so smooth you hardly notice they aren't telescopic until you jump off a kerb. Doing stoppies I have complete trust in them.

I rode an ali Scott for 60 miles and felt absolutely shattered; I can ride my carbon Roubaix for the same and still feel fresh.

Carbon frames are built to a price because they are damned expensive to build, that's all. It's nothing to do with planned obsolescence.

My Roubaix has bendy seat stays that are so flexy that you can feel the bike bounce if you go over a bumpy surface. With Roubaix tyres the underneath of the bridge contacts the tyres when I ride over bumps.


----------



## Svendo (26 May 2011)

Zoiders said:


> Carbon has it's place of course depending on what you want in a bike, I do think that the major manufacturers are missing a trick by not offering carbon frames that are slightly more simple and over built and capable of taking guards or a light rack.
> 
> Instead it all seems to err on the side of being high and race orientated when they could be churning out really good winter commuters and training frames that withstand road salt and corrosion, but then again where is the money in offering a frame that doesn't rust/corrode and lasts you for 20 years no matter how wet or salty it gets?




Dolan Dual: Dolan Webite HERE Carbon Frame, mudguards and rack bosses.


----------



## snailracer (26 May 2011)

Zoiders said:


> ... a frame that doesn't rust/corrode and lasts you for 20 years no matter how wet or salty it gets?


That's not quite correct. Carbon itself _appears_ to be fairly inert, but it is electrochemically very active - it accelerates corrosion of metal fittings attached to it, especially aluminium.


----------



## I like Skol (26 May 2011)

"Is Carbon that much better than aluminium ?"

Perhaps the question should be is aluminium that much better than carbon? I had a huge accident in my early twenties when my Ali MTB bars snapped while zooming down a farm track. Since then I have had concerns about the fatigue resistance of aluminium components. With hindsight I had had warning signs and had even stripped down the stem and handle bar clamp a few weeks earlier and reassembled it all with a smear of grease to try and cure a creaking problem  

I guess both carbon and ali can be problematic if not executed correctly.


----------



## JonnyBlade (26 May 2011)

I have both and find the rides fairly similar although the carbon needs a little less effort for me to throw it around the roads of Hampshire


----------



## fossyant (26 May 2011)

Horses for courses folks.

Stuff fails some times / or it doesn't.

Ride the bikes hard, but treat them with kid gloves in transport. My 'old' race bike has had more scuffs from transport/maintenance than racing..... it's steel and hasn't rusted.

My new'ish commuter is now 2 years old -it's alloy and carbon, and looks like new, it's battered every day, my forks haven't melted or collapsed, the alloy not snapped. Not much steel on it but... 

My employer asked me recently to do written procedure for a business system, only because I had a magnetic attraction to cars, I replied my new bike was aluminium and carbon... heh heh.... ... Still have to do the work though...boooo 

Just ride a bike - pick what material YOU want.


----------



## Alembicbassman (26 May 2011)

Planet X Carbon SL (£1099) now enters the fray under that of their Team Alu bikes (£1199)

So carbon is not now more expensive or exclusive.

Decathlon now do full carbon with 105 bits for £899

You chose a bike for the type of riding.

Stiff frames allow maximum power transfer, energy gets lost if things bend.

Flexible frames make for a comfy ride, frame absorbs lumps and bumps.

All frames of all materials can be made stiff or flexible, just depends on the fabrication.

That's why you need to try before you buy.

If you're going to blow your hard earned cash it's best not to end up a fashion victim.


----------



## MacB (26 May 2011)

Interesting Alem, I do wonder sometimes about the various reviews/opinions you get online, even after discounting the usual fanboy type stuff declaring whatever to be the bestest ever. As I understand it material science, in relation to bikes, has really developed around racing priorities. What's good for a superfit pro cyclist is not necessarily good for the weekend warrior. 

I have very limited experience of aluminium but the Giant I had was a half alu half carbon frame, with carbon forks, and very comfy. Not as comfy as my steel Crosscheck or the newer steel Vaya, but quite different bikes as well. Choosing a new bike I ended up going for a ti frame & carbon disc forks, a full carbon frame would have been too expensive to go custom for what I wanted. But I borrowed heavily form Roubaix geometry in the design, if the Roubaix had been available with disc brakes and bigger tyre clearance I'd have bought that. My new 29er will have rigid carbon disc forks as well, so I'd guess I'm ok with carbon.

But I can't see me ever going with carbon parts like seatpost, bars, full forks, etc.


----------



## lukesdad (26 May 2011)

Alembicbassman said:


> Planet X Carbon SL (£1099) now enters the fray under that of their Team Alu bikes (£1199)
> 
> So carbon is not now more expensive or exclusive.
> 
> ...



Very true its how the framset is made not what its made of.


----------



## PaulSB (27 May 2011)

Svendo said:


> Dolan Dual: Dolan Webite HERE Carbon Frame, mudguards and rack bosses.



I was going to mention this as I've had one for six weeks now. Part of the choice was made because of mudguard clearance and rack bosses. A great bike, handles well, very comfy and 2-3 mph faster than my old one. Only issue I have is getting used to the double shift system for the gear change as it's a compact double, but that's a different subject. I have now cracked it but do miss the change from time to time. 

As the LBS pointed out it's the idiot using them not the shifters that are the problem!!!!


----------



## gb155 (27 May 2011)

I averaged 18.2 Mph Yesterday, my quickest ride for about a month

I was on my Cheap Carbon bike

and I only used the 39t (small) ring 

Carbon RULES


----------



## GrasB (27 May 2011)

Banjo said:


> I dont want to replace it yet but still like studying the bikes available etc .It seems to me that if you are happy with ally you can get a much better specced bike for the same money. Is Carbon really that much of an improvement in ride quality?


I found that the Cervelo S1 frameset was just as compliant or more so than every carbon framed bike where the frameset cost less than £800. Spend similar money on a frame (900-1100) in carbon or aluminium & you got a light, stiff & compliant frame. One thing I did notice was that you only got carbon frames right at the extremes of compliancy & weight envelopes where as stiffness was dominated by the aluminium frames. Basically the more expensive the frameset the better it is, from there its a case of picking your preferred blend.


----------



## threebikesmcginty (27 May 2011)

Alembicbassman said:


> Planet X Carbon SL (£1099) now enters the fray under that of their* Team Alu bike*s (£1199)



The bike of champions!  

Funny how that's turned around price-wise, when I bought my Team Alu it was a good £400+ cheaper than carbon and that was with Ultegra kit too.


----------



## david k (27 May 2011)

how do i find out if my apollo mountian bike is carbon?


----------



## 515mm (27 May 2011)

david k said:


> how do i find out if my apollo mountian bike is carbon?



Ride it really fast into a wall.

If it bursts into flames, it was carbon.

That's true that is.


----------



## david k (27 May 2011)

515mm said:


> Ride it really fast into a wall.
> 
> If it bursts into flames, it was carbon.
> 
> That's true that is.



do i wear a helmet?


----------



## MacB (27 May 2011)

david k said:


> do i wear a helmet?



this thread is about something else, can you keep your helmet fetish on the threads designed for that purpose....unless of course this is an attempt at humour....in which case you need all the practice you can get


----------



## 515mm (27 May 2011)

david k said:


> do i wear a helmet?



No. Very little point really. 

Just Lynx Africa and a smile..........


----------



## david k (27 May 2011)

515mm said:


> No. Very little point really.
> 
> Just Lynx Africa and a smile..........






asdas own deodrant will have to do.

smile and keep eyes shut eh?


----------



## david k (27 May 2011)

MacB said:


> this thread is about something else, can you keep your helmet fetish on the threads designed for that purpose....unless of course this is an attempt at humour....in which case you need all the practice you can get


----------



## Andrew_P (27 May 2011)

I wasnever worried about my carbon frame until I read this thread


----------



## ianrauk (27 May 2011)

LOCO said:


> I wasnever worried about my carbon frame until I read this thread





Don't let it worry you...the professional peleton don't seem to be worried and they throw their bikes around far heavily then we do. Ohh yes, in that case you had not better board an aircraft or a boat as they are now mostly made of carbon fibre.

Things break, it happen's now and again.


----------



## MacB (27 May 2011)

ianrauk said:


> Don't let it worry you...the professional peleton don't seem to be worried and they throw their bikes around far heavily then we do. Ohh yes, in that case you had not better board an aircraft or a boat as they are now mostly made of carbon fibre.
> 
> Things break, it happen's now and again.



Yep, a simple internet search will turn up examples of failed steel, carbon, ti and aluminium....as a sample of all bikes sold these failures are vanishingly small and, in some cases, can be down to user error/lack of maintenance.


----------



## david k (27 May 2011)

MacB said:


> Yep, a simple internet search will turn up examples of failed steel, carbon, ti and aluminium....as a sample of all bikes sold these failures are vanishingly small and, in some cases, can be down to user error/lack of maintenance.




or because they are not fit for purpose?
or maybe a cheap version?


----------



## I like Skol (27 May 2011)

ianrauk said:


> Don't let it worry you...the professional peleton don't seem to be worried and they throw their bikes around far heavily then we do.




But how frequently are those bikes replaced? Once a season, a few times a season, everytime one gets scratched?


----------



## ianrauk (27 May 2011)

I like Skol said:


> But how frequently are those bikes replaced? Once a season, a few times a season, everytime one gets scratched?



who knows? How frequently does the average cyclist treat a bike like those in professional cycling?


----------



## vorsprung (27 May 2011)

An expensive, well made aluminum bike might be better than a cheap carbon bike

But assuming similar levels of quality of construction carbon usually makes a better bike

This is because carbon is a better material if wisely used. It can be stronger than aluminium or much more flexible. Or both in the same component in different directions

Aluminum might be better for a bike that got a lot of surface scratches or knocks but other than that carbon would always be better

Titanium is a wonder material for bikes. Particularly if you want to do fast(ish) long distance. It absorbs high frequency road noise better. It is light.

Steel is cheap and has excellent ride charactistics. A well made steel bike could be lighter and more comfortable than a carbon bike


----------



## Andrew_P (27 May 2011)

A serious question: How to tell if the carbon is on its way out?


I have a Roubaix Comp, and the finish looks like exposesd carbon, so I guess a look around for splits etc?


Have to say it rides lovely, coming from a steel hybrid, I would find it really difficult moving back!


----------



## andygates (27 May 2011)

Carbon "goes" quickly, so you'll prpbably miss the "on its way out" stage between "fine" and "explosive delamination".


----------



## Andrew_P (27 May 2011)

thx


----------



## KingstonBiker (27 May 2011)

ianrauk said:


> ...
> I have a Specialized Roubaix Elite and a Specialized Secteur Elite. One is carbon, one is alu.
> They both share the same geometry.
> The difference in riding though is chalk and cheese. The carbon is far more forgiving on the road and a much comfier ride then the alu.
> It did take me a little while to get used to the harsher alu ride after being spoilt with the carbon.



Ian, I have the Secteur Elite and have just discovered my next door neighbour has the Roubaix Elite (although I've never seen him riding it). I have two questions. Firstly if the Roubaix is a better ride why keep/use the Secteur? Do you use one to commute the other for longer rides? Secondly if I swapped my bike with my neighbour would he notice?


----------



## ianrauk (27 May 2011)

KingstonBiker said:


> Ian, I have the Secteur Elite and have just discovered my next door neighbour has the Roubaix Elite (although I've never seen him riding it). I have two questions. Firstly if the Roubaix is a better ride why keep/use the Secteur? *Do you use one to commute the other for longer rides*? Secondly if I swapped my bike with my neighbour would he notice?



Yep, Secteur Elite is my day to day commute bike, Roubaix Elite is my nice, long distance bike. Yes your neighbour will notice as much as you would notice if you ride his.

gratuitous pic of the 2 bikes


----------



## KingstonBiker (27 May 2011)

ianrauk said:


> Yep, Secteur Elite is my day to day commute bike, Roubaix Elite is my nice, long distance bike. Yes your neighbour will notice as much as you would notice if you ride his.
> 
> gratuitous pic of the 2 bikes



Nice. I'll have to start convincing the wife I'll need another bike next year.


----------



## Rohloff_Brompton_Rider (28 May 2011)

andygates said:


> Carbon "goes" quickly, so you'll prpbably miss the "on its way out" stage between "fine" and "*explosive delamination*".



bin there done that and F*** me it's loud, like shotgun loud.


----------



## Alembicbassman (28 May 2011)

You could always opt for the latest material - FLAX
http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/museeuw-flax-bike-launch-15198/


----------



## peelywally (28 May 2011)

rode steel alu and carbon and my favourite has to be alu , never felt quite right on carbon (was a friends i dont have that sort of cash )

i used to like steel then i found the lightness of alu irrestible next step up is carbon or titanium but they just feel fragile light to me so i,ll stick to alu .


----------



## fossyant (28 May 2011)

A well built/designed bike is just that, what ever material. Carbon does best strength/weight ratio.

It's the legs/lungs that count. But a nice bike is great too.


----------



## J4CKO (29 May 2011)

My two failures have been ally bars snapping where it goes into the stem and a steel frame snapping at the rear stays, so other materials do fail.

Being out of the saddle yanking the bars and realising something is wrong and that the right bar is not steering at all is pretty alarming.

Jumping a cheap, steel framed 1980's Raleigh on a BMX track is not advisable, the Raleigh "Equipe" was not a natural competitor for a Diamond Back, Huffy or Mongoose


----------



## david k (29 May 2011)

my only failure was a big mountain bike type bike from the 80s. i did a jump and landed on back wheel, when front went down the folks bent alarmingly! they were the days. big old heavy steep bso


----------



## dellzeqq (29 May 2011)

Banjo said:


> Is Carbon really that much of an improvement in ride quality?


the short answer is yes.

the slightly longer answer is that geometry plays a part in comfort (and purchasing a bike without test-riding it is taking a risk) and the answer that is ever so slightly longer is that carbon forks and a carbon seatpost will give you some benefit if you can't afford or don't want a full carbon frame.


----------



## BrumJim (30 May 2011)

Thing is, the most important part of a bike is the engine that sits on it.

If you get a Carbon bike, you are top of the tree. So in theory no one should pass you unless on a TT bike. However if you are on an aluminium, you can be smug about any carbon bike that is going slower than you. That is the only thing stopping me upgrading.


----------



## hotmetal (31 May 2011)

BrumJim said:


> However if you are on an aluminium, you can be smug about any carbon bike that is going slower than you. That is the only thing stopping me upgrading.



Ha! So true! I've always been a bit allergic to looking like "all the gear and no idea" so have tried to avoid having all the posh stuff/team kit. (Not hard if you're not made of cash anyway). Even my swanky _ahem _carbon road bike was a secondhand purchase. I paid for a 6 year old full carbon full Record bike what a new Allez with Tiagra would cost. I must say I'm loving it! And it hasn't snapped. However, now I have to make sure I don't get beasted by someone on a cheapy bike! Good motivation…

I think a decent carbon frame is great for road bikes, which tend to get looked after, but I do have reservations about carbon frames for off-road use. Not that carbon frames might be "not strong/flexy enough" when new, but more about the likelihood that off-road, sooner or later (in any given ride if you're trying hard) you're going to crash and if a rock takes a gouge out of the carbon it could be a write-off.

Rather than believe internet hype from fanboys of either persuasion, I'd ask about lifetime warranties. If a frame manufacturer (like Felt's mountainbikes IIRC) only offers a one year limited warranty, maybe you should worry. But if carbon bikes generally were failing all the time, I think someone would have said something. Statistically I suspect the numbers are very small. All the frames I've heard of that broke were ally, but that might be because it's more common, especially in mountainbikes. The whole debate, to me, seems like some folks are just put off by the idea that a bike "should" be made of metal and "carbon is plastic which is what toys are made of". I'd say just get a few test rides in and buy the bike you think rides the nicest, and don't worry about it breaking. 

Of course, the self respecting eco-hippy would be riding bamboo anyway…


----------



## Wobblers (31 May 2011)

LOCO said:


> A serious question: How to tell if the carbon is on its way out?



It's easy: you'll hear a loud "CRACK!" and then find yourself lying on the road. At that point, you'll know that your carbon frame's on its way out...


----------



## Wobblers (31 May 2011)

The frame material is _much_ less important than the fit: no matter what wonder material it's made of, if your bike doesn't fit you, it'll never be comfortable. 

Carbon has the highest strength to weight and stiffness to weight ratio of any material, so it's possible to make a lighter frame out of it. But the truth is, you can make an oustanding frame out of either carbon or alloy: The Cannondale CAAD 9 (alloy) is as good as most carbon bikes. Just pick the one that you like best after a test ride and you won't go far wrong.


----------



## accountantpete (31 May 2011)

McWobble said:


> Carbon has the highest strength to weight and stiffness to weight ratio of any material, so it's possible to make a lighter frame out of it. But the truth is, you can make an oustanding frame out of either carbon or alloy: The Cannondale CAAD 9 (alloy) is as good as most carbon bikes. Just pick the one that you like best after a test ride and you won't go far wrong.



I agree - basically the lighter the frame the more responsive that frame will be. It's amazing how much small changes in the weight affect performance - I have 2 alloy frames both the same stiffness but the 1kg frame is light years better than the 1.5kg frame. 

If I had the choice of a 1.5kg carbon or 1kg alloy I'd take the alloy every time.


----------

