# How to get along with other drivers



## Garethgas (6 Feb 2014)

Following some rather heated discussions regarding the hatred between motorists and cyclists, I was dismayed to see such worrying attitudes among some posters.
I'm new to this forum and as such am not familiar with the posting style of members so it may well have been tongue in cheek...I don't know.
Anyway, rather than have each thread deteriorate into a slanging match, I was hoping that some of the wiser element could offer some tips on avoiding conflict and promoting safe and happy cycling for all? 
There is an enormous wealth of experience on this site so I was hoping to pool our thoughts and opinions.
Not the ones you can read in any of the books but the ones you've found to work for you.
I'll go first with a rather mundane one, but they all help:
Keep primary position to a minimum. A motorist will see when you do/do not have a chance to pull over. Giving way is a sign of courtesy not weakness.


----------



## glenn forger (6 Feb 2014)

Fine, hug the gutter, where the broken glass and drain covers lurk, ignore the Government-approved advice and what's taught in all Cycling Proficiency or Bikeability courses.

Good luckl!


----------



## Brandane (6 Feb 2014)

Difficult one this, as there are varying cycling styles for varying road conditions. What works for me in the rural area where I live, has to be adjusted when I go to Glasgow, and again when I have cycled in the living hell, which IMHO, is London (not trolling, I just don't like the place).

For example, red light jumping. This might be a crazy irresponsible thing to do at 5pm in Piccadily Circus, and rightly attracts criticism on here. However, am I really causing a problem by turning left on a red light, at 3am, in rural Ayrshire with no other traffic around? I would have no problem with that, and yes I know what the law says.

There are selfish, ignorant, aggressive twonks in cars and lorries. There are also selfish, ignorant, aggressive twonks on bicycles. What I am learning from this forum, after several years, is that a larger proportion of cyclists have a chip on their shoulder about cars and drivers, than drivers have about cyclists. This is not a healthy situation for those cyclists.


----------



## sazzaa (6 Feb 2014)

Garethgas said:


> Keep primary position to a minimum. A motorist will see when you do/do not have a chance to pull over. Giving way is a sign of courtesy not weakness.



In my experience most motorists barely even notice what a cyclist's situation is, I take primary as and when required to keep myself safe. I don't weave in and out of parked cars because it's dangerous, a car can wait until they are safe to pass me without me swerving in and putting myself in danger.


----------



## Garethgas (6 Feb 2014)

I don't need luck.
After over 50 yrs of cycling, with no incidents of any note, I must be doing something right. 
Hugging the gutter is just a term used to imply the rider is in some way timid. My default position is secondary (not in the gutter), but there
are parts of my ride where only primary is safe. 
Reading books is all well and good but you have to apply the theory in practice.
Making cheap jibes doesn't add anything to this topic.


----------



## glenn forger (6 Feb 2014)

How many miles do you do?


----------



## roadrash (6 Feb 2014)

you said
I'm new to this forum and as such am not familiar with the posting style of members so it may well have been tongue in cheek...I don't know

and i cant decide whether your post is serious or not  (i hope not)


----------



## Garethgas (6 Feb 2014)

sazzaa said:


> In my experience most motorists barely even notice what a cyclist's situation is, I take primary as and when required to keep myself safe. I don't weave in and out of parked cars because it's dangerous, a car can wait until they are safe to pass me without me swerving in and putting myself in danger.


I suppose everybody talks about their own riding areas and the riding style can vary enormously when I'm in a town or rural area. Perhaps I could have worded it better by saying use primary wisely and be aware of other traffic behind you.
I'm not trying to make up my own highway code here, just trying to explain that pulling over to secondary when you can will allow the cars to get ahead without causing frustration.


----------



## summerdays (6 Feb 2014)

glenn forger said:


> Fine, hug the gutter, where the broken glass and drain covers lurk, ignore the Government-approved advice and what's taught in all Cycling Proficiency or Bikeability courses.
> 
> Good luckl!


Not necessarily agreeing with him but he didn't say he was going to cycle in the gutter, I took his comment to mean that he would cycle in secondary where appropriate (well I suspect that's a slightly generous version, but it is unfair to put words in his mouth).
[edit:actually you have clarified ]

Me I think that you can be nice to motorists (usually helps if they have also been nice to you- and the converse is definitely true), and that a smile often helps both sides rub along. And abiding by the law!


----------



## RedRider (6 Feb 2014)

Garethgas said:


> some tips on avoiding conflict and promoting safe and happy cycling for all.


be confident, remember your absolute right to be on the road. Signal intentions ( doesn't need to be an arm signal, can be as simple as changing road position in good time) and be predictable.
For me this means taking a primary position most of the time and at junctions all of the time. I tend towards courtesy so I'll move into secondary to let a car pass if it feels safe to do so. 
As an aside, for a period last year I suffered from sciatica which reduced confidence in my cycling ability. I found myself hugging the gutter more and deferring to motorists on the approach to pinch points etc. For the first time ever cycling felt dangerous and I got plenty of close passes. Was a valuable learning experience.


----------



## sazzaa (6 Feb 2014)

Garethgas said:


> I suppose everybody talks about their own riding areas and the riding style can vary enormously when I'm in a town or rural area. Perhaps I could have worded it better by saying use primary wisely and be aware of other traffic behind you.
> I'm not trying to make up my own highway code here, just trying to explain that pulling over to secondary when you can will allow the cars to get ahead without causing frustration.



Maybe just a case of bad wording. My big issue on my route is a short stretch of 40mph busy dualler, most cyclists seem to hug the gutter on it but when I've tried that cars have zoomed past just inches away from me, (you know, because two lanes means they should both be filled with cars...) so now I take primary. I think one way of not pissing drivers off is just to wait in a queue of traffic sometimes instead of filtering, especially if you're just waiting at red lights for a few seconds, I don't see a huge need for filtering in that situation, it sometimes feels like it's more hassle than it's worth anyway.


----------



## Brandane (6 Feb 2014)

glenn forger said:


> Fine, hug the gutter, where the broken glass and drain covers lurk, ignore the Government-approved advice and what's taught in all Cycling Proficiency or Bikeability courses.
> 
> Good luckl!


There you go AGAIN, misinterpreting what people have posted, and twisting their words around to suit your agenda.


----------



## sazzaa (6 Feb 2014)

Oh, also, giving a gesture to thank drivers when they've been waiting patiently behind you and when they give you loads of room, it's sometimes nice to be nice.


----------



## glenn forger (6 Feb 2014)

Primary Position complies with the National Standard for cycle training, which is referenced within the Highway Code. 



> One of the purposes of primary position is to prevent motorists from attempting to overtake. This is often essential for the safety of both the cyclist and the motorist. The minor inconvenience suffered by a motorist ‘held up’ by a cyclist in primary position is more than compensated for by the safety of both parties.
> 
> Cyclists hugging the kerb are vulnerable for a range of reasons. Positioned to the left of traffic, rather than straight in front of it, they are arguably harder for motorists to spot. This applies whether or not the cyclist is wearing a helmet and hi-vis clothing. Keeping close to the kerb can also lead to motorists making the false assumption it is acceptable to pass extremely close to a cyclist, as the majority of the carriageway is left invitingly free.
> 
> ...



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/acti...yclists-must-take-the-middle-of-the-lane.html


----------



## roadrash (6 Feb 2014)

no one has more right to use the road than any other road user, i cycle , i drive, i try to be courteous to other road users at all (well most) times, but as ive said before .. there are nobs in all walks of life , cyclists and drivers included


----------



## MikeW-71 (6 Feb 2014)

I confess I haven't seen much of this "hatred" towards cyclists. I ride secondary most of the time, primary if I need to and 99% of motorists are absolutely fine with it.


----------



## Brandane (6 Feb 2014)

User13710 said:


> Dear Granny, I know I only met you five days ago, but here are some eggs. Let me help you with eating them. Kind regards, Garethgas x


So just because GG is new to CC, he can't possibly know anything about cycling then? Perhaps he has been cycling a very long time and doesn't bother with forums (not a bad idea).
Welcome to the CC forum Gareth, hugs and kisses, User13710 x.


----------



## glenn forger (6 Feb 2014)

He says he's been cycling for fifty years and never had an incident? That amazes me, unless he does a mile a year?


----------



## 400bhp (6 Feb 2014)

Just ride yer ferkin bike.

Primary, secondary, gutter. Whatever.

Become traffic, make cycling normal.

I must go back to a car forum and ask about road positioning on there.

Man, we worry far too much about what others think.

Follow advanced driving - concentrate on your own safety, the rest will follow.


----------



## 400bhp (6 Feb 2014)

MikeW-71 said:


> I confess I haven't seen much of this "hatred" towards cyclists. I ride secondary most of the time, primary if I need to and 99% of motorists are absolutely fine with it.



Cos it doesn't exist.


----------



## Justiffa (7 Feb 2014)

People hereabouts are only now catching up with bicycling, commuting, touring so the laws with regards to cyclists are probably almost non-existent. for now. I hope. And today I hv learnt something new - filtering.

Again, this is a great place for info


----------



## Roadrider48 (7 Feb 2014)

Just ride....


----------



## Garethgas (7 Feb 2014)

The issue of primary/secondary is a little tricky as it depends on your cycling route.
There are indeed parts


MikeW-71 said:


> I confess I haven't seen much of this "hatred" towards cyclists. I ride secondary most of the time, primary if I need to and 99% of motorists are absolutely fine with it.



Funny that you say that, because I too don't get any hassle off motorists. Perhaps some people are just a bit more clued up, have a better attitude and more relaxed about their riding than others?
It speaks volumes that some are so familiar with conflict. 
Judging by the mentality of some, it's not surprising that there's so many confrontations going on, especially when I'm criticised for simply trying to encourage others not to follow suit. I suspect that if these people will still be having bad rides in their later years (if they live that long).


----------



## Garethgas (7 Feb 2014)

The issue of primary/secondary is a little tricky as it depends on your cycling route.
There are indeed parts


User13710 said:


> He might know a bit about cycling; he doesn't know much about us. He's as welcome as anyone else who doesn't wade in being patronising. OK Branny?


If you find my posts patronising, why not make a constructive contribution that may help others less experienced than yourself, instead of pretending that you have some kind of rank here just because you've been here longer?


----------



## swansonj (7 Feb 2014)

I think there is a debate still be had about how often, when taking primary, to inconvenience oneself by pulling over to allow motor vehicles to overtake.

On my commute, there's a mile and a half stretch of single carriageway A road where I often take primary. But even though, objectively, I probably only delay motorists by a minute or two, that still feels like a long way to be holding up other road users. So I know where the side turnings are that don't have dangerous lips, and I will often ease up and pull over into one of them at least once and sometimes twice on that mile and a half, particularly if there's a bus or lorry behind. Or I will ease into the gutter for a bit to let cars past.


----------



## Linford (7 Feb 2014)

If I feel that a car cannot pass safely given the width of the road and oncoming traffic, I will move out in to the primary. When approaching a traffic island, I will always take the primary..when I am passed it, I will take the secondary. I never ride in the gutter...either on the cycle,motorcycle or in the car... too much debris, too many drains. My secondary position is about 1ft out from the edge of the drains...or depression around them.


----------



## VamP (7 Feb 2014)

MOD EDIT

........ @User13710 has overshot the mark, and apologized. It's an attitude to be applauded, not derided. We could all do with including some humility in our posts here. It's becoming an increasingly confrontational slugfest.


----------



## 4F (7 Feb 2014)

Ride positive, ride safe and make sure your bike is in good working order. That is all


----------



## swansonj (7 Feb 2014)

User13710 said:


> Where's the debate though? This is good practice, so is car drivers showing patience. What it isn't, is 'keeping taking primary to a minimum'.


I think the debate comes from my, for one, not really knowing how often I should pull over to allow overtakes. Every time there's a car behind would be excessive in one direction; the whole (in my case) mile and a half would be excessive in the other direction. I'll bet different cyclists have different opinions.


----------



## Mugshot (7 Feb 2014)

Its confidence and the absolute understanding that you have an absolute right to be on the road. It's very easy for cyclists new and old to assume that they are a hinderance to faster moving vehicles and that because of that they should metaphorically doff a cap and tug a forelock to them. It can take a bit of persuasion and an about turn in attitude to put yourself further into the road whether secondary or primary, you're closer to the danger, you're holding people up, people will be annoyed with you and so on, but once you're there you soon start to see the advantages. The vast majority of drivers aren't out to get you, they just need reminding that just because there's a gap they don't have to go for it and a confident, assertive but inclusive use of the roads very rarely results in beeping and abuse.


----------



## Peter Armstrong (7 Feb 2014)

I cycle in the Primary to avoid arguements and such, not sit in the gutter. The more people cycle correctly the more drivers get used to it. Win Win.


----------



## coffeejo (7 Feb 2014)

Seems to me there's a lot of misunderstanding on this thread about the general meaning (or intended meaning) of primary and secondary positions.


----------



## glenn forger (7 Feb 2014)

I don't hold traffic up by riding primary, they may do a pathetic little brrrrm BBBBRRRRM! overtake but I always catch them at the next lights. 

I don't hold them up, more often they hold me up, I don't blast the Airzound and shake fists, I've seen plenty of drivers who do!


----------



## 400bhp (7 Feb 2014)

coffeejo said:


> Seems to me there's a lot of misunderstanding on this thread about the general meaning (or intended meaning) of primary and secondary positions.



Because, you know what, they are meaningless.


----------



## coffeejo (7 Feb 2014)

400bhp said:


> Because, you know what, they are meaningless.


Don't go all philosophical on me. Does the road still exist if nobody's using it?


----------



## 400bhp (7 Feb 2014)

coffeejo said:


> Don't go all philosophical on me. Does the road still exist if nobody's using it?



No

They are just meaningless terms to me. I never consciously think about what position I'm in to be honest. I just move in or out.

Perhaps the only meaningful one is whether out or in the gutter. And I do, on occasion, ride in the gutter.


----------



## Linford (7 Feb 2014)

glenn forger said:


> I don't hold traffic up by riding primary, they may do a pathetic little brrrrm BBBBRRRRM! overtake but I always catch them at the next lights.
> 
> I don't hold them up, more often they hold me up, *I don't blast the Airzound and shake fists*, I've seen plenty of drivers who do!



I'll bet you have in the past if your form here is anything to go by


----------



## glenn forger (7 Feb 2014)

I probably cycle more in a Year than you have in your life, through the roughest part of the capital. You don't know what you're talking about.


----------



## Rob3rt (7 Feb 2014)

How to get along with other drivers? 

Don't be a cock end! Should serve successful in 97.3% of situations.


----------



## glenn forger (7 Feb 2014)

Only one of the recent London cyclist fatalities involved any wrong doing by the cyclist. All the rest most definitely were not being cock ends, and they got killed.


----------



## Linford (7 Feb 2014)

glenn forger said:


> I probably cycle more in a Year than you have in your life, through the roughest part of the capital. You don't know what you're talking about.



Really ?


----------



## GrasB (7 Feb 2014)

One of the reasons that people gutter riding get a less abuse is because they're not seen. 

It's much easier for a motorist to see you & not be annoyed by a cyclist starting in primary & moving to secondary if there is space for a motorist to pass. But on the other hand moving from secondary to primary can easily be seen as a blocking manoeuvre. For this reason I ride in primary most of the time but keep aware of what's approaching from behind & in front of me then move to secondary as I feel appropriate. It's interesting I end up with far more 'abuse' when moving from secondary to primary (eg. car horn blaring for the 10 seconds it takes them to actually catch me) than riding in primary for prolonged periods.


----------



## glenn forger (7 Feb 2014)

GrasB said:


> One of the reasons that people gutter riding get a less abuse is because they're not seen.
> 
> It's much easier for a motorist to see you & not be annoyed by a cyclist starting in primary & moving to secondary if there is space for a motorist to pass. But on the other hand moving from secondary to primary can easily be seen as a blocking manoeuvre. For this reason I ride in primary most of the time but keep aware of what's approaching from behind & in front of me then move to secondary as I feel appropriate. It's interesting I end up with far more 'abuse' when moving from secondary to primary (eg. car horn blaring for the 10 seconds it takes them to actually catch me) than riding in primary for prolonged periods.



Yeah, pretty much this, keep a straight line and you won't surprise and alarm drivers by veering out to avoid a parked car or whatever. Predictable is safe.


----------



## Moderators (7 Feb 2014)

A lot of posts have been deleted from this thread, for being aggressive, off topic, unpleasant and not welcoming to a newer member.

Keep to the subject under discussion, avoid any personal confrontations and being rude .. and some good advice might come through. 

Thank you.


----------



## glenn forger (7 Feb 2014)

Rob3rt said:


> How to get along with other drivers?
> 
> Don't be a cock end! Should serve successful in 97.3% of situations.



If you are really claiming that cyclists are at fault in over 93% of accidents I'd be interested to see the source for that statistic?


----------



## Rob3rt (7 Feb 2014)

When you "read" text, do you just see words that you wish were there?


----------



## glenn forger (7 Feb 2014)

Another non-answer.

What "situations" that effect cyclists are you referring to? I assumed you meant accidents, are you saying you didn't mean accidents? What then?

Where's the 97.3% figure from, and what does it refer to?


----------



## glenn forger (7 Feb 2014)

The trouble with claiming, with completely false statistics, that it's up to cyclists to avoid situations is that it's simply not true.

In a quarter of fatal cyclist accidents, the front of the vehicle hit the rear of the bicycle. These can be the most deadly RTCs and the cyclist has done nothing wrong, and that's before you even start with drivers on a mobile, drunk or drugged drivers, speeding drivers, drivers jumping red lights.

It's a totally bogus claim and it's distasteful victim-blaming.


----------



## Rob3rt (7 Feb 2014)

glenn forger said:


> The trouble with claiming, with completely false statistics, that it's up to cyclists to avoid situations is that it's simply not true.
> 
> In a quarter of fatal cyclist accidents, the front of the vehicle hit the rear of the bicycle. These can be the most deadly RTCs and the cyclist has done nothing wrong, and that's before you even start with drivers on a mobile, drunk or drugged drivers, speeding drivers, drivers jumping red lights.
> 
> It's a totally bogus claim and it's distasteful victim-blaming.



Bogus, that's a good word, not as good as doofus though! Doofus is 137.4% better!


----------



## glenn forger (7 Feb 2014)

Remember that Audi punching clip? Read the comments BTL on the Mail website, all the highest-rated say the cyclist deserved it, people boasted about driving too near cyclists, side-swiping them, deliberately scaring them. Some motoring forums used to contain similar boasts. The cyclist had done nothing wrong, they were just..there.


----------



## Linford (7 Feb 2014)

glenn forger said:


> Remember that Audi punching clip? Read the comments BTL on the Mail website, all the highest-rated say the cyclist deserved it, people boasted about driving too near cyclists, side-swiping them, deliberately scaring them. Some motoring forums used to contain similar boasts. The cyclist had done nothing wrong, they were just..there.



I don't get the bit where he chased the car for 1/4 mile to have a full blown rant at the driver after he had a dig at them for encroaching in the ASL. ..Can you explain the justification in chasing them down ? I'm not sure if the cyclist was winding up to use an airzound or removing the cars mirror...he came across as very confrontational and unduly aggressive.

If the rider hadn't started yelling at the Audi in the first place, they may have not been so keen off the lights when they changed....I very much doubt that all the commentators were drivers. I can see fault on both sides...I am not blinded by bias


----------



## glenn forger (7 Feb 2014)

My point was nothing to do with the driver who nearly crushed the cyclist's foot and ran a red light, it was that a lot of people boasted publicly about threatening cyclists who had done


nothing


wrong.

That's why rob3rt's unable to back up his claim, he invented a bogus statistic to attack cyclists with.


----------



## Linford (7 Feb 2014)

glenn forger said:


> My point was nothing to do with the driver who nearly crushed the cyclist's foot and ran a red light, it was that a lot of people boasted publicly about threatening cyclists who had done
> 
> 
> nothing
> ...




So do you think that this episode with the aggressive London cyclist has done the rest of us any favours ?


----------



## Rob3rt (7 Feb 2014)

glenn forger said:


> My point was nothing to do with the driver who nearly crushed the cyclist's foot and ran a red light, it was that a lot of people boasted publicly about threatening cyclists who had done
> 
> 
> nothing
> ...



You have me sussed right out.


----------



## glenn forger (7 Feb 2014)

Linford said:


> So do you think that this episode with the aggressive London cyclist has done the rest of us any favours ?



You think Henri Paul has let down all drivers for killing Diana?


----------



## snorri (7 Feb 2014)

My experience with a driver today.
There I was pootling along on a beautiful morning, not at all cold for February, no wind, just minding my own business. Then this car overtook me at a speed appropriate to the conditions and giving me adequate clearance. He was only a 100 metres clear of me when he pulled in to a layby on his left. I caught up just as the elderly driver was getting out of the car and gave him a hand to change his punctured wheel, we didn't shout at all and he thanked me as we parted, it's given me a warm glow.


----------



## Linford (7 Feb 2014)

glenn forger said:


> You think Henri Paul has let down all drivers for killing Diana?



What I'm concerned about is that public perception will be influenced by the agression shown, and that the rider chose to put himself up against the car (twice) to do something which was not his job to do...police the roads.

I wonder if he will be so brave next time he sees a car in the ASL ?


----------



## Rob3rt (7 Feb 2014)

snorri said:


> My experience with a driver today.
> There I was pootling along on a beautiful morning, not at all cold for February, no wind, just minding my own business. Then this car overtook me at a speed appropriate to the conditions and giving me adequate clearance. He was only a 100 metres clear of me when he pulled in to a layby on his left. I caught up just as the elderly driver was getting out of the car and gave him a hand to change his punctured wheel, we didn't shout at all and he thanked me as we parted, it's given me a warm glow.



I consider this proof positive that if you aren't a cock end, 97.3% of the time, you will get on with drivers.


----------



## sazzaa (7 Feb 2014)

What's this Audi clip everyone's banging on about? I was on hols last week so presume I missed something?


----------



## Shaun (7 Feb 2014)

sazzaa said:


> What's this Audi clip everyone's banging on about? I was on hols last week so presume I missed something?



http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/cyclist-wanted-threads-merged.148026/

But can we get back to the OPs topic now please ...



Garethgas said:


> ... could offer some tips on avoiding conflict and promoting safe and happy cycling for all?


----------



## coffeejo (7 Feb 2014)

Shaun said:


> But can we get back to the OPs topic now please ...


I think a new thread is required - how to get along with other people.


----------



## sazzaa (7 Feb 2014)

Shaun said:


> http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/cyclist-wanted-threads-merged.148026/
> 
> But can we get back to the OPs topic now please ...



Cheers.

This sounds really daft, but smiling at drivers seems to work for me sometimes. Just being overly happy or singing to yourself seems to make them much less angry! (Have to admit, it's difficult to do if I'm in a shitty mood, or even a normal one. But in a happy mood you really see the difference!)


----------



## Linford (7 Feb 2014)

How to get along with drivers...
if one of them lets you out of a side road, give them a smile or a nod...it humanises you.
If you expect them to respect traffic lights, then be seen to be doing the same...it isn't too much to ask
Stay off the pavements unless it is a shared space...all drivers are also pedestrians as well. If they see this, they think you don't respect others more vulnerable....and then reason that they shouldn't have to respect you.


----------



## snorri (7 Feb 2014)

Linford said:


> How to get along with drivers...
> if one of them lets you out of a side road, give them a smile or a nod...it humanises you.
> If you expect them to respect traffic lights, then be seen to be doing the same...it isn't too much to ask
> Stay off the pavements unless it is a shared space...all drivers are also pedestrians as well. If they see this, they think you don't respect others more vulnerable....and then reason that they shouldn't have to respect you.


 Some good advice for drivers there Linf


----------



## cd365 (7 Feb 2014)

What a horrid nasty thread and I haven't seen all the stuff that was deleted. 
If I was the OP, the impression I would be getting from this thread is that there are quite a lot of not nice cyclists around and to carry on enjoying cycling quitting Cyclechat would be a good place to start!


----------



## fabregas485 (7 Feb 2014)

Drivers near me tend to be very cycle friendly. They see when I may need space so they slow down. In return I give them a wave as they pass, and if they been stuck behind me a while, I will let them past.
In regards to cycling in the gutter, I try to avoid it as its where all the rubbish ends up (leaves, bottles, glass) and can be a hazard. If you cycle at slower speeds then feel free to ride in the gutter if you feel safer but I would avoid it at higher speeds.

In regards to your comment, 'Keep primary position to a minimum. A motorist will see when you do/do not have a chance to pull over. Giving way is a sign of courtesy not weakness.' I could not agree more.


----------



## theclaud (7 Feb 2014)

roadrash said:


> no one has more right to use the road than any other road user



Not true. There is no right to drive a motor vehicle on a public highway.

But as for the requested tips...

Behave assertively towards those more powerful/dangerous than you, and indulgently towards those more vulnerable.
Take responsibility for your own behaviour, and do not endanger others.
Enjoy the space you claim, and be seen to enjoy it.
Be calm, where possible, in response to poor driving, but cut yourself a bit of slack and have a pop back at real bullies when you get the chance - your gran was right when she told you they were cowards.
Be especially nice to drivers who were about to endanger you with a stupid manoeuvre, but thought twice about it when you glared or shook your head. 

Ride two abreast more often.
Behave predictably most of the time, but keep a spot of stealth in reserve.


----------



## glenn forger (7 Feb 2014)

Anyone extravagantly wave thanks to a driver who lets you pull out or whatever and you get the

_minimal
_
acknowledgement?

I always wave thanks effusively, if a driver on my left lets me out I glance right then pull out and hold an open palm out, arm raised, sometimes the driver responds with one finger held up off the steering wheel (no, not that one).

Ha ha! It's as if they're embarrassed by courtesy from cyclists.

If they blank me I kill them and all their family, obv.


----------



## Linford (7 Feb 2014)

theclaud said:


> Not true. *There is no right to drive a motor vehicle on a public highway*.
> 
> But as for the requested tips...
> 
> ...



There is if they are taxed and insured


----------



## glenn forger (7 Feb 2014)

Linford said:


> There is if they are taxed and insured



You think there's nothing wrong with a ten year old child taking a car that failed its MOT onto the roads? You think it's their RIGHT!?

Worse than eleven Putins.


----------



## roadrash (7 Feb 2014)

theclaud said:


> Not true. There is no right to drive a motor vehicle on a public highway .
> 
> But as for the requested tips...
> 
> ...


thats exactly what i meant , same goes for cyclists, horse riders, pedestrians, etc etc . we are all road users , i may be a bit dim but cant think of the correct word to replace RIGHT with in my previous statement


----------



## boydj (7 Feb 2014)

Garethgas said:


> I suppose everybody talks about their own riding areas and the riding style can vary enormously when I'm in a town or rural area. Perhaps I could have worded it better by saying use primary wisely and be aware of other traffic behind you.
> I'm not trying to make up my own highway code here, just trying to explain that pulling over to secondary when you can will allow the cars to get ahead without causing frustration.


I have yet to see a cyclist who rides in primary position by default, so I don't think this is really an issue. The problem is one of perception from some motorists who don't understand cyclists' positioning as taught in bikability - witness the Clarkson tweet from a couple of weeks ago or the recent ASA ruling. 
As I gained experience and rode more assertively I found that I suffered far fewer problems with close passes and aggressive drivers than when I started regular commuting quite a few years ago now.


----------



## Pat "5mph" (7 Feb 2014)

How to get along with motorized traffic when you are on a bike - some tips from me.
Sitting at traffic lights, have a good look around, engage the attention of drivers: is there a big bike chasing rubbish lorry behind you? Turn, give the driver a big smile and a wave.
Big hill ahead, bus stopped: let it pull out.
Roadworks ahead, lane narrowing? If safe to do so, pull into a side street, let traffic pass you till you are the last.
Of course you can only do so much, or you might as well walk.
You can't please all drivers all the time when cycling.


----------



## glenn forger (7 Feb 2014)

I let buses out and if I get all their hazards flashing as a thank you I get ten points.

(off me).


----------



## Pat "5mph" (7 Feb 2014)

glenn forger said:


> I let buses out and if I get all their hazards flashing as a thank you *I get ten points.*
> 
> (off me).


On your driving license?  
[Joke!]


----------



## theclaud (8 Feb 2014)

roadrash said:


> thats exactly what i meant , same goes for cyclists, horse riders, pedestrians, etc etc . we are all road users , i may be a bit dim but cant think of the correct word to replace RIGHT with in my previous statement



The right thing is a big deal. We have the right to walk along or across the road, or to ride a bicycle on it. We do not have the right to drive a motor vehicle on it. Driving a motor vehicle on the highway is better appreciated as similar to possessing or using a firearm - something that one might be granted permission to do if there is a need, but that should not be allowed to interfere with others' rights to use the highway.


----------



## RedRider (8 Feb 2014)

snorri said:


> My experience with a driver today.
> There I was pootling along on a beautiful morning, not at all cold for February, no wind, just minding my own business. Then this car overtook me at a speed appropriate to the conditions and giving me adequate clearance. He was only a 100 metres clear of me when he pulled in to a layby on his left. I caught up just as the elderly driver was getting out of the car and gave him a hand to change his punctured wheel, we didn't shout at all and he thanked me as we parted, it's given me a warm glow.


You should've twatted him.


----------



## snorri (8 Feb 2014)

RedRider said:


> You should've twatted him.


No I'm up north, we are just not so touchy feely as you southerners


----------



## sazzaa (8 Feb 2014)

[QUOTE 2917742, member: 9609"]I'm wondering if some people (5% ish ?) have some weird mental problem with the wheel. This thread seems to be banging on about the idiot motorist, but I tend to think there are as many idiot cyclists (look at the audi thread that 400:1 chance when two idiots meet) Fair enough an idiot cyclist does not present the same dangers as an idiot in an articulated truck, but it's still an idiot in control of a vehicle that possesses wheels.

Now in terms of transport as in getting from A to B, I can't recall ever seeing a pedestrian or horse rider going stupidly fast, or loosing all self control at being delayed for 3 seconds, getting all wound up at the use of fog lights when its not foggy, or over use / under use of indicators. So is all the irrational idiocy that we see on a daily basis on the road have any connection to the wheel ?[/quote]
Road rage innit. You don't really get pavement rage.


----------



## Puddles (8 Feb 2014)

People are people and not always nice people, whatever their mode of getting from A to B, people will be and act in accordance with a whole range of emotions and sense of "rightness" (as in they are in the right).

Walking (High winds heavy rain) to the school the other day with User76 to go to a function with Squidge was a warm fuzzy day, as there are large puddles all along the road next to the only path up to the school, every single motorist, tankers, trucks, vans & cars alike slowed down and moved round the puddles upon seeing me, I was a smilley happy waving noddy thank you-ing pedestrian. This was a lovely heart warming pootle to the school. I was glad we did not arrive drenched head to toe in muddy puddle water.

However, another time, every single motorist will go through the puddles on the school run making it look like all the parents and smaller children are having a mud wrestling after party in the playground. They are not small puddles and at speed they create a wall of water that literally soaks you head to toe.

Sometimes herd mentality kicks in, if one does it they all follow suit.

It should be noted that the oil & fuel tanker drivers from the depot in the village (in my experience) always slow and never drive through the puddles. They also give me lots of room when cycling, they slow right down keep far back not snort up my bum and overtake on the other side of the road.

I think in big cities there it is most likely a lot of stress and eek cycling or driving, I have driven through London once, it was quite an experience. I know there are some places where even in driving you can slow down, let people cross roads, let people out, all happy smiley and then their are some places where if you are "nice" and let someone out you will end up with eleventy millions cars taking advantage of that.

I think is is plain stupidity and dangerous in today's world to get into a confrontation with another traveler of any description, whether wheeled, motorised or pedestrian but I can also understand after a close pass or brush that the fight or flight might kick in and the red mist descends but you do not know all the time that it was deliberate, people are not perfect, mistakes happen, accidents happen, escalating a simple mistake into damaging things and blood being spilled deliberately a ridiculous stance to take as your default response.

I don't ride in the gutter and I am still a "learner" but I ride along, and make sure when I need to move out I peer lots behind me and then move out, I don't stay in the middle of the road unless I need to, I will pull off the road if I create a long queue of traffic cos I don't cycle very fast, I mostly cycle in a small area, I am very memorable and noticeable and I don't want to promote anger towards me out of frustration of drivers at getting stuck behind me at 5 mph. That said I am not a big city cyclist I am a small village and the bits in between them cyclist, albeit that the only road into the village is one of the busiest B roads in the country.

Share the road nicely, be nice to others and hope they will be nice back, if you try and tackle aggression with aggression the whole situation gets worse, I could be wrong but that is my two pennys for what it is worth.


----------



## GrumpyGregry (8 Feb 2014)

Garethgas said:


> Making cheap jibes doesn't add anything to this topic.


Your OP reads like a cheap gibe.


----------



## Garethgas (8 Feb 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> Your OP reads like a cheap gibe.



Blimey...5 pages in and that's the best you can come up with?
Perhaps you're envious of others ability to cope with situations better than you? 
Or, perhaps you have absolutely no constructive contribution to make. 
Trading insults may be your style but it isn't mine. You won't get a further reaction from me.


----------



## winjim (8 Feb 2014)

Rob3rt said:


> How to get along with other drivers?
> 
> Don't be a cock end! Should serve successful in 97.3% of situations.


Wheaton's Law.


----------



## GrumpyGregry (8 Feb 2014)

Garethgas said:


> Blimey...5 pages in and that's the best you can come up with?
> Perhaps you're envious of others ability to cope with situations better than you?
> Or, perhaps you have absolutely no constructive contribution to make.
> Trading insults may be your style but it isn't mine. You won't get a further reaction from me.


So sorry I'm late to the party.

You really need to think about how your writing style makes you come across in here.

We're done. Off to the ignore list you go.


----------



## buggi (8 Feb 2014)

The way to get along with drivers is to take primary and secondary when appropriate, be confident in your body language, know your road positioning and don't pull stupid maneouvres that suddenly surprise them, signal, eye contact and say thanks. However, this won't endear yourself to the motons who think they own the road and when you see people moaning about drivers, it's these drivers they are moaning about. We don't hate all drivers, we just think some of them are knobs.


----------



## glenn forger (8 Feb 2014)

Garethgas said:


> Blimey...5 pages in and that's the best you can come up with?
> Perhaps you're envious of others ability to cope with situations better than you?
> Or, perhaps you have absolutely no constructive contribution to make.
> Trading insults may be your style but it isn't mine. You won't get a further reaction from me.



gareth, why are you offering advice that runs contrary to all official cycle training? What's your background in teaching people how to ride bikes?


----------



## Garethgas (8 Feb 2014)

Hi Glenn
First of all, I have absolutely no experience whatsoever in teaching anyone to ride bikes (except my kids) and my OP didn't claim I did.
Similarly, I have no experience of teaching anyone to drive a car, except my kids. 
When I learned to drive (many years ago) I was told that it's after you pass your test you learn to drive. I believe the same is true for cycling.
If you pop back and check my OP you'll see that I was simply trying to get people to offer their own tips with regard to avoiding conflict.
It seems there are some who think I was putting myself in a position of self appointed cycling advisor...nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, this is part of what I posted:
_"I was hoping that some of the wiser element could offer some tips on avoiding conflict and promoting safe and happy cycling for all?"_
A clear reference to the other forum members, not me. Had I not offered any view at all, I would have been attacked for that too.
You'll also see that I didn't say not to use primary. I accept I could have worded it better but that's only because there are some who are determined to dissect a post in such a way as to make it appear so.
Not all cyclists are riding racing bikes capable of keeping up with town traffic, so riding tactics will vary.
There are indeed times where holding primary position is pretty much essential but it's the cyclists decision as to where and when it's appropriate.
There are some who will keep primary most of the time and others secondary. 
This can be the cause of much frustration for drivers and as such I am simply suggesting that people use it more wisely. An experienced cyclist will make different decisions than a novice and will often have a better understanding of what does and doesn't suit him.
I deliberately used the primary/secondary issue as I've seen both used inappropriately many times, often causing drivers to lose patience and take unnecessary risks.
If I find something that seems to work for me then I'm happy to pass it on to anyone who cares to try it.
To me, the only downside of cycling is safety and I was merely trying to get others to pass on their tips.


----------



## Garethgas (8 Feb 2014)

User13710 said:


> In the midst of all this ... stuff, you are still blaming the cyclist for causing someone else's behaviour. You are still wrong.


For me, it's not a matter of blame, it's a matter of safety. Any tactic that reduces the opportunity to get hit is fine by me.


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (8 Feb 2014)

Garethgas said:


> For me, it's not a matter of blame, it's a matter of safety. Any tactic that reduces the opportunity to get hit is fine by me.


Sell our bikes and buy cars?


----------



## roadrash (8 Feb 2014)

theclaud said:


> The right thing is a big deal. We have the right to walk along or across the road, or to ride a bicycle on it. We do not have the right to drive a motor vehicle on it. Driving a motor vehicle on the highway is better appreciated as similar to possessing or using a firearm - something that one might be granted permission to do if there is a need, but that should not be allowed to interfere with others' rights to use the highway.


 
I agree with you ,,like i said "RIGHT " was the wrong word to use but couldnt think of which word to replace it with.


----------



## Garethgas (8 Feb 2014)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Sell our bikes and buy cars?


Absolutely not!!
I drive because I have to for work,
I cycle cos I love it


----------



## 400bhp (8 Feb 2014)

Garethgas said:


> There are indeed times where holding primary position is pretty much essential but it's the cyclists decision as to where and when it's appropriate.
> There are some who will keep primary most of the time and others secondary.
> *This can be the cause of much frustration for drivers*



Tough.

Now that''s a pretty short reply, but peeps have to get out of this "I worry about what other road users think of me" mentality.

I'll repeat the mantra earlier - take care of yourself first, the rest will take care of itself.

Let's reverse the situation - I get frustrated when I encounter traffic queues because I cannot go at the speed I would like. Well, that's just tough titties on me I'm afraid. I cannot control it [queues] so I don't worry about it.


----------



## 400bhp (8 Feb 2014)

2918345 said:


> If you had wanted to leave it as a short reply, the one word would have sufficed.



I didn't want to.


----------



## Brandane (8 Feb 2014)

400bhp said:


> Tough.
> 
> Now that''s a pretty short reply, but peeps have to get out of this "I worry about what other road users think of me" mentality.


Fine in theory, but ...... frustrated drivers can be dangerous drivers. 

Better to keep them sweet, although I do appreciate that some will never be happy, no matter what we as cyclists do. The flip side of the coin being that the same could be said by drivers about some cyclists.


----------



## ShipHill (8 Feb 2014)

Last summer I decided to take on one of the short sharp hills round here. It's a narrow lane that probably sees about 1 car per hour... the sort of lane that a car would be touching the hedges on both sides at the same time except for the handful of driveways on it. It's also got a nice line of grass down the centre.

So I'm ambling along towards the bottom of the hill and I hear the 1 car due in that hour pootle up behind me.

My thought process went something like this.

a) I might not get up this hill without unclipping and stopping suddenly. Such is my poor fitness level.
b) I don't want this person behind me should my legs suddenly lose their energy.
c) I'd rather have them out the way.

So as I approached the large farm entrance on the left as the hill begins I waved them past and pulled in. They pootled past and waved. I waved back. I actually got up the hill in 1 go too!! 

Works for me although every situation is different.


----------



## Kookas (8 Feb 2014)

[QUOTE 2917742, member: 9609"]I'm wondering if some people (5% ish ?) have some weird mental problem with the wheel. This thread seems to be banging on about the idiot motorist, but I tend to think there are as many idiot cyclists (look at the audi thread that 400:1 chance when two idiots meet) Fair enough an idiot cyclist does not present the same dangers as an idiot in an articulated truck, but it's still an idiot in control of a vehicle that possesses wheels.

Now in terms of transport as in getting from A to B, I can't recall ever seeing a pedestrian or horse rider going stupidly fast, or loosing all self control at being delayed for 3 seconds, getting all wound up at the use of fog lights when its not foggy, or over use / under use of indicators. So is all the irrational idiocy that we see on a daily basis on the road have any connection to the wheel ?[/quote]

I think that's just because pedestrians tend to be more oblivious, and don't concern themselves with the road much. Especially the ones who don't drive themselves.


----------

