# 3rd time knocked down by a car. This is starting to get old



## jefmcg (5 Jun 2018)

Friday a week and a half ago I was heading west from Kensington. I entered a roundabout heading straight through. There was a car approaching from my left, but it was well short of the line, and I had priority. It was moving towards the give way line like it wasn't stopping, but - and I hate this - every car in London approaches a roundabout like they aren't going to stop. But you are well ahead of me here; It didn't stop, pringling my wheel and leaving my carbon fork under suspicion. But I'm ok, and... I don't think my insurance claim will be challenged.

But... the bike is at the LBS - possibly a right off but I've taken no action to get it back on the road or replaced. Cycling was one of my few pleasures and my main form of transport, and I may be done. How many more collisions (none of them so far my fault) before I am maimed?

There's more to tell post collision, but I'll save that and share of there's an interest

Ironically (or something) I was spending time with my brother from overseas. He's very much of the cycling-is-dangerous school. This was the third time this visit I had left for home on my bike, and the previous two nights he'd insisted on a text when I got home. This night I said "I'll be fine. I won't text. You go to bed.". 150 metres down the road? Bam!

This is why I am still on cyclechat. At the least the responses will be mainly supportive and I expect to get some help getting back on the road. But some of them will come from people I have differing views on gender roles, so there's that.


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## User10119 (5 Jun 2018)

Glad you're OK, and sorry about the bike.


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## slowmotion (6 Jun 2018)

The important thing is that you bounced. I've been offed a few times without a scratch, except to the bike. There's no point in worrying, wondering about what might be.
Continue to have fun.


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## jefmcg (6 Jun 2018)

slowmotion said:


> The important thing is that you bounced


Thank you. That is just the response I want. Sadly, I don't always bounce. The debilitating injuries have not yet happened in the presence of a car. I am not totally convinced that is a good thing.


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## Pat "5mph" (6 Jun 2018)

First of all, I'm really sorry to hear about your accident, you didn't say if you're injured, are you OK?
I know where you're coming from, it is a scary prospect the one to be maimed or worse.
I only had near misses so far, but I'm very careful in choosing my routes.
One near miss a few weeks ago, in good visibility, only me and the car on the road, now I will never ride that junction again.
I am positive you will ride again because you love cycling.


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## slowmotion (6 Jun 2018)

jefmcg said:


> Thank you. That is just the response I want. Sadly, I don't always bounce. The debilitating injuries have not yet happened in the presence of a car. I am not totally convinced that is a good thing.


The last time I was offed was on the Earl's Court one-way system. In the process of becoming airborne, knocking off a door mirror, denting a front wing and being projected onto the pavement with the bike on top of me, a very large tin of powdered glue exploded in my backpack.
The next day, I was riding the same route and stopped off at a decorators' merchants on Kensington High Street to buy a pot of paint. At the till, I asked the guy to tape up the lid really well so that when I got offed again, the inside of my backpack would be OK. The bloke behind me was utterly horrified at my fatalism.


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## classic33 (6 Jun 2018)

I've had worse injuries from siezures than I've had from cycling. That incudes the t-boning that had me bonnet surfing. Hit once and another near miss on the same day, both drivers claimed not to have seen me. Which given what I was on at the time is pushing it.

Take time, think about possibly changing the type of cycling rather than giving up. It'd be a spur of the moment thing that you may regret later.

What ever you decide, best o'luck.


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## Old jon (6 Jun 2018)

classic33 said:


> It'd be a spur of the moment thing that you may regret later.
> 
> What ever you decide, best o'luck.



This ^, and best wishes.


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## Slick (6 Jun 2018)

Sorry to hear of your troubles, not nice. Obviously nobody wants to see someone give up on cycling but I for one would understand it if you did, even for a while. I do enjoy my commute, but sometimes I do wonder. 

I hope both you and the bike are repaired quickly.


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## Saluki (6 Jun 2018)

Sorry to hear that you have been run into again. I have never cycled in the London area but imagine it to be more fraught with stupidity- car drivers I mean - than the small towns that I tend to live in.
I hope that you do return to cycling and that you feel better soon.


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## flake99please (6 Jun 2018)

Hopefully the insurance is dealt with in a timely manner. Take a little ‘time out’ if needed.

My grandad always said a bad day on a bike is better than a good day at work. Remember all the journeys without incidents, and remind yourself that collisions are very rare.


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## Heltor Chasca (6 Jun 2018)

Glad you’re ok. For what it’s worth: Commuting for 5 years in London saw me getting hit thrice. For one reason or another I have ended up in the West Country where I enjoy a much better quality of life aboard my bike.

I look forward to seeing you down here one day


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## raleighnut (6 Jun 2018)

Glad to hear you bounced, bad news about the bike though.


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## keithmac (6 Jun 2018)

Sad news that you're thinking of giving up, I've had to stop at a certain roundabout a few times (my right of way) even though I've already eyballed the driver on approach.

The same roundabout has 2 lanes to my right, stopped a few weeks back because there was a car coming through in the straight ahead lane to my right and a van locked all 4 wheels up behind me!. 

Was expecting a right mess (hit from behind and pushed side on into a car) but he stopped just on my rear wheel. Sure I saw a phone in his hand (builders van..).

Yesterday night a woman was that obsessed with pulling out of a side street she didn't look at all, I knew what was coming so took avoiding action but shed only checked her right (and saw me) half way across the road!. I gave her some helpful driving tips through her open drivers window!.

Close passes are too common now, used to be one in a blue moon now it's 2 or more a journey..

One last one, the traffic lights in York, top of Nunnery Lane/ Station Rise. The amount of busses that jump that red light coming from Station Rise is unbelievable, if I didn't check right on our green light I'd have been squashed years ago.

Seriously thinking of a helmet cam!. The joya of the commute..


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## User10119 (6 Jun 2018)

keithmac said:


> top of Nunnery Lane/ Station Rise.


Near the Punch Bowl? Forever in our minds known as 'Punch Up Corner' that one is, after an unfortunate experience that a cycling friend had while waiting at the lights.


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## swansonj (6 Jun 2018)

My sympathy and best wishes too.

Cyclechat, like a village pub or post office or whatever, has become a community and like any community the members have a moral and emotional stake in it. I am glad you are now able to share your experience and your emotions in our and your community.

Any time you want to remember why cycling really is worthwhile, you are welcome to come and join me for a pootle up Box Hill one evening


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## Bazzer (6 Jun 2018)

Sorry to hear of your incident. Mrs B would sympathise with your brother though as, following a major off by me about three years ago, she insists on a text if my ride does not finish at home.
FWIW my commute is into almost the centre of Manchester, but my worst incident involving a car was being T boned on a pleasure ride. 
One of the reasons I now ride with a camera is because of the regularity of close calls on commutes and pleasure rides. I know they don't prevent incidents, but as an independent eye.
Perhaps when your bike is repaired/replaced and any bruises etc. healed, get away from the smoke with it for a couple of days to somewhere quieter to rekindle your relationship with the bike?


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## ianrauk (6 Jun 2018)

Sorry to hear about this J. Glad you're not badly hurt.


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## keithmac (6 Jun 2018)

[QUOTE 5268464, member: 10119"]Near the Punch Bowl? Forever in our minds known as 'Punch Up Corner' that one is, after an unfortunate experience that a cycling friend had while waiting at the lights.[/QUOTE]

Yep that's the spot.

Blatant red light jumping and nothing ever seems to get done about it..


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## MartinQ (6 Jun 2018)

Sorry to hear it. I've had a couple of offs in the last 3 years, both the car's fault, so have some idea how you feel. 
Last one was when a guy didn't give way at a roundabout entrance and ran straight into the back of me on the roundabout, so similar to what's happened to you.
I'm sure you know about getting a quote, reporting it to the police and if you're a member of one of the cycling organizations, you may have access to legal advice. 
Apart from that, time generally heals so GWS


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## gaijintendo (6 Jun 2018)

Do motorcyclists get hit with the same frequency?

I cycled into and bonetted a (parked!) car aged about 6, and thankfully am still in the lead.

Regardless, I hope you and the bike either recover, or are replaced with something a lot better. Whichever you prefer.

Take care!

Edit: rereading this, it does sound quite churlish. I misjudge things frequently. I really do extend my sympathies, and hope you find yourself back in the saddle, safe and happy soon.


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## User10119 (6 Jun 2018)

@jefmcg - I know that the response to an incident or a near miss is often an emotional one (and that is entirely human and normal and all that, natch) but in case the SCIENCE and stats can help you to rationalise that I recommend this thread, and particularly this blog post that was linked to in it https://www.gicentre.net/blog/2013/11/24/risk-cycling-and-denominator-neglect


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## User10119 (6 Jun 2018)

jefmcg said:


> At the least the responses will be *mainly supportive* and I expect to get *some help getting back on the road*


(My *bolds*)



slowmotion said:


> The important thing is that you bounced.





jefmcg said:


> Thank you. That is just the response I want.


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## User10119 (6 Jun 2018)

User said:


> I recommend a read of Jo Wood's very informative blog post. Almost five years old - but still relevant.


A-hem... I believe that may be a TMN to me?


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## ianrauk (6 Jun 2018)

[QUOTE 5268518, member: 9609"]

@jefmcg glad your OK, can you not just keep your cycling for quite country roads, riding is just too good to not do.

We need a massive change in the enforcement of traffic laws to get drivers to start taking care.[/QUOTE]


The amount of cycle/car incidents is minuscule compared to the sheer amount of people cycling and the miles ridden in London on a daily basis.
I actually feel far safer cycling in London traffic then when I do bombing around country lanes.
But still agree with your point of a change in enforcement laws.


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## ianrauk (6 Jun 2018)

[QUOTE 5268616, member: 9609"]how many times have you been knocked off ?[/QUOTE]


In the last 13 years of London commuting 3 times
In the same period in the countryside 2


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## Tim Hall (6 Jun 2018)

Lawks! Just caught up with this. That sounds a bit rough, hope it all works out OK.


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## Mugshot (6 Jun 2018)

GWS @jefmcg , I too hope you find the confidence to stick with it


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## mjr (6 Jun 2018)

The only non self inflicted collisions I've had didn't take me off. I've posted about them on here before. And this is despite 40ish years of me generally using cycleways and cycle routes, which some on here claim is more dangerous than road riding.

@jefmcg - sorry to read that. Don't give up: get even. Change your routes to avoid that blackspot if motorists generally charge up to it in ways that make it hard to judge if they'll stop, plus push your councillor or AM to get the junction improved. I bet you're not the only cyclist deterred by it. Good luck!


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## SteveF (6 Jun 2018)

Sorry to hear this, but pleased you were not injured ...chin up, tomorrow is another day and hopefully better than the one you were knocked off on.


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## Phaeton (6 Jun 2018)

I have no answers for you, I have never ridden in London & it's a long time since I drove there, my only present experiences are, I arrive by train & either use the tube or I walk (preferred), coming from the provinces (Sheffield) the whole place seems manic to me, nobody is interested in anything else other than themselves.

I wrote a lot more of this, but realised it wouldn't help resolve you issue, so all I can say is get well soon, but if you do enjoy cycling do not let the selfish stop you.


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## jefmcg (6 Jun 2018)

[QUOTE 5268543, member: 10119"]@jefmcg - I know that the response to an incident or a near miss is often an emotional one (and that is entirely human and normal and all that, natch) but in case the SCIENCE and stats can help you to rationalise that I recommend this thread, and particularly this blog post that was linked to in it https://www.gicentre.net/blog/2013/11/24/risk-cycling-and-denominator-neglect[/QUOTE]

That is for people who have only been in one collision, or none and are worried by the statistics. But now I have been in 3, I am my own study. I know my denominator, it's 52,155km. So one collision with a car every 17,000km or so. 

If the pattern holds, I'll be due another by the time I replace my next bottom bracket. (where's the rueful laughter emoji?)


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## MiK1138 (6 Jun 2018)

Hope you and the bike are OK. i know what you mean about roundabouts, where I live "Give Way" seems to translate as "Creep slowly further into the road until oncoming traffic has no choice but stop to let you out"


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## mjr (6 Jun 2018)

Phaeton said:


> I have no answers for you, I have never ridden in London & it's a long time since I drove there, my only present experiences are, I arrive by train & either use the tube or I walk (preferred), coming from the provinces (Sheffield) the whole place seems manic to me, nobody is interested in anything else other than themselves.


Coming from the provinces (Norfolk), I think that's a bit unfair. That London genuinely seemed to change in the run-up to 2012 and it seems to have persisted. There are still plenty of "fool in a hurry"s but there are also many lovely welcoming helpful people of all sorts there. Cycling has become much easier, which is partly better-signed routes (not necessarily actually better routes in many cases) which I suspect is due to the weight of cycling tourists on hire bikes and folding bikes as they become more common. Also, if you're not sure where to go, asking or simply following bunches of cyclists often works now, at least in inner London. There are still a few roads which I usually avoid (Euston Road and its infernal shark-infested/black-cab-infested bus lanes ) but some of the worst have been cycle-bypassed or totally remodelled in the last decade.

Is it still considered offensive to talk to people on the tube? Maybe using that to travel around is contributing to the perception.


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## DCLane (6 Jun 2018)

Don't give up - it happens.

Others have commented about different routes; I'd echo that. However, giving up on what you enjoy because of the stupidity and thoughtlessness of others means the idiots have won. Don't let them. Please.


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## Milkfloat (6 Jun 2018)

Back to @jefmcg My suggestion, take a week off, take a tube a few times or a bus and then go for a pootle somewhere by bike, I am sure you will come to your senses . In my unimportant opinion, it is better to have the smiles per mile and associated health benefits of cycling even if there is a small risk of denting someones car. The alternative to me would be far worse.


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## MontyVeda (6 Jun 2018)

Saluki said:


> Sorry to hear that you have been run into again.* I have never cycled in the London area but imagine it to be more fraught with stupidity- car drivers I mean - than the small towns that I tend to live in.*
> I hope that you do return to cycling and that you feel better soon.


I was thinking the exact same thing... I'm not sure I'd like to cycle through Preston or Manchester on a daily basis, let alone London. 

Glad you're OK @jefmcg.


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## ianrauk (6 Jun 2018)

Saluki said:


> Sorry to hear that you have been run into again. I have never cycled in the London area but imagine it to be more fraught with stupidity- car drivers I mean - than the small towns that I tend to live in.
> I hope that you do return to cycling and that you feel better soon.




Actually it's not. There are so many cyclists now on the roads in London that at some junctions, cyclists out number car traffic by many. Over the years car drivers have become very cyclist aware. There is also the fact that a lot of traffic in London (Central mainly) is jammed up so that cycling is far quicker and easier then driving.


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## jefmcg (6 Jun 2018)

User said:


> Ouch! Glad you’re OK.
> 
> I presume the police aren't going to do anything?


Chapter 2.

Car was a Prius mini cab driven by a (as it turned out) nice Somalian-British driver with a real arse hole of a passenger - older white British male, if it needs to be said.

Driver did not believe he was at fault, but I don't understand why. I called 999, but Friday night the Met is busy and I was stuck in a queue. Kudos that a voice quickly came on to ask if I was in danger, and when I said no, I was put back in the queue. Meanwhile the passenger has decided I'm hysterical (my angry screaming when I hit the bitumen may have been a factor there ), and starts mansplaining to me why the cops aren't needed, badgering me with repeated "what benefit do you think you will get from the police attending?" I had no intention of justifying myself to this stranger who was clearly annoyed that me being struck by a car was delaying his journey home. I may have said "Shut the fark up" 

Anyway, he soon had his answer, if he was paying attention. The driver showed me his taxi ID and when I asked to see his licence, he refused! Lucky just then the police arrived! Which is odd, because I was still in the queue. Turns out he was on his way somewhere and stumbled upon the scene. Parliamentary protection I think, motorbike with a gun and all! He took our statements and they matched, to quote the officer "I had to go over parts of the highway code with him" to explain he was in the wrong. Police also talked to the passenger, who I subsequently saw angrily stomping from the scene in search of another ride home without ever enquiring about my well being.

Once the driver understood he was at fault, he became genuinely apologetic. I totally believe he didn't mean to hit me. He didn't explain what was going through his head and didn't ask. We all have brain farts. He seemed like a competent driver, and getting home would be be difficult, so after he passed a breath test, I accepted his insistent offer to drive me home. We had a lovely chat on the way home, once I finally convinced him to stop apologising.

So the police have the incident recorded, but I don't know what action they will take. But I can guess.


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## keithmac (6 Jun 2018)

gaijintendo said:


> Do motorcyclists get hit with the same frequency?
> 
> I cycled into and bonetted a (parked!) car aged about 6, and thankfully am still in the lead.
> 
> ...



I have the joy of riding to work in rush hour on my bicycle and then roadtesting motorcycles daily. 

I ride the same on both, assume everybody else is stupid and no one has seen you, basically get ready for worst case scenario and be able to avoid it!.

I pulled to a stop on a main road once as I'd seen a car starting to pull out (if I'd carried on she'd have taken me off!). She did the whole maneuver before realising I was there as it obviously startled her. I just gave her a FFS (don't normally swear but I was livid).


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## Phaeton (6 Jun 2018)

jefmcg said:


> The driver showed me his taxi ID and when I asked to see his licence, he refused!


Did he show it to the Police officer?


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## classic33 (6 Jun 2018)

jefmcg said:


> Chapter 2.
> 
> Car was a Prius mini cab driven by a (as it turned out) nice Somalian-British driver with a real arse hole of a passenger - older white British male, if it needs to be said.
> 
> ...


Chase that side of it up as well.


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## glasgowcyclist (6 Jun 2018)

jefmcg said:


> I may have said "Shut the fark up"



Oh man, I'd have paid to see that.

Get well soon.


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## jefmcg (6 Jun 2018)

Phaeton said:


> Did he show it to the Police officer?


Yeah. I think he may have had some coaching from his passenger. Once the gentle officer spoke to him, he was compliant.


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## Phaeton (6 Jun 2018)

jefmcg said:


> Yeah. I think he may have had some coaching from his passenger. Once the gentle officer spoke to him, he was compliant.


Just wondered if the reason he didn't was due to not having one


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## jefmcg (6 Jun 2018)

Pat "5mph" said:


> I only had near misses so far, but I'm very careful in choosing my routes.





DCLane said:


> Others have commented about different routes; I'd echo that.



Well, if you want to suggest how I could improve this route....

View: https://www.strava.com/activities/1596059827/embed/56c76ee2d5156091fa750936fc49444eb83782ba


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## jefmcg (6 Jun 2018)

Phaeton said:


> Just wondered if the reason he didn't was due to not having one


As his taxi licence looked real, I had no real doubt he had a license, it had a frisson of "I don't have show it to you" which just seemed to come from the back seat. 

It didn't go any further because the policeman appeared seconds after his refusal.


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## vickster (6 Jun 2018)

I’m not sure I’d show my licence to anyone other than the police either even if I had it with me. I’ve only had to produce it once which I did next day at the cop shop


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## lazybloke (6 Jun 2018)

[QUOTE 5268793, member: 45"]You stated your view that cycling is very dangerous. It isn't.[/QUOTE]

I'd normally agree with this, except this thread is specifically about repeated _actual _danger, including collisions, damage and possibly injuries. A combination of perceived _and _actual danger is a persuasive argument against cycling, and I'm sure that many of us have hesitated to get back on the bike after something like this. 

Cycling in itself might be a safe activity, but it does expose us to danger from other road users. The risks might be small for any individual journey, but the risk accumulates for the high-milers among us, plus risks are increased due to poor road design, poor surfaces, weather, and all manner of other local conditions. Worst of all, an inattentive driver presents a danger on even the safest of roads.
We can only manage/control/influence those risks by changing how and where we cycle.

@jefmcg - very best wishes to you. As said by @Milkfloat, cycling can and does offer many *smiles per mile * (a lovely phrase), so that's the kind of cycling you need whilst you regain your confidence. Maybe the Royal Parks to get away from traffic? 

If that roundabout (or any other junction) continues to feel unsafe, there's always the option of crossing on foot.


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## Dayvo (6 Jun 2018)

I've not read the whole thread but wanted to wish you well and hopefully the end of your recent spate of mishaps. 

I haven't cycled in London for donkeys years but you just have to assume that a driver will do the opposite of what is right/expected.

I hope your spirit isn't as dented as your body and you can continue to ride with (relative) confidence in completing your journey without further ado.


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## mjr (6 Jun 2018)

jefmcg said:


> Well, if you want to suggest how I could improve this route....
> 
> View: https://www.strava.com/activities/1596059827/embed/56c76ee2d5156091fa750936fc49444eb83782ba


Difficult to tell where you were going from that, but it does look like a rather innocuous mini-roundabout which I wouldn't usually avoid  (Harrington Gardens is one of my habitual routes and has identical-looking ones.)

Cross as close to the central island as possible, be ready with emergency turns and stops, but I struggle to think what else you could do except employ a sniper to take out errant motorists! 

In the longer term, that should be a four-way stop "except cycles" IMO but I think they still require the bloody transport minister to approve them, unless that was changed in the 2016 regulations. The borough could make the whole zone 20mph and resident-access-only, but there's more chance of the second coming than a sane approach to streets in Kensington and Chelsea at the moment.


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## jefmcg (6 Jun 2018)

mjr said:


> Difficult to tell where you were going from that, but it does look like a rather innocuous mini-roundabout which I wouldn't usually avoid  (Harrington Gardens is one of my habitual routes and has identical-looking ones.)



@mjr gets it. It's a very innocuous roundabout. I would have been in primary, well lit. The roads were very quiet. I doubt as many as 10 vehicles past through the junction the hour or so I was there. The driver was presumably heading towards the A4 from a nearby restaurant or house.

If I was to dismount or give way at this junction, I'd have to do it at every single side street and roundabout and driveway, which would

put me at risk of being rear ended every time (my previous two collisions were both partly due to being over cautiousness at roundabouts, behaviour I have corrected)
if I dismount then I am rejoining the carriageway just after a junction which strikes me as a risky maneuver. There are cars coming from 3 directions, all behind me and two of them not in my line of sight. And none of them particularly looking out for a vehicle joining the road right there.
In London, walking is more deadly per km than cycling. Presumably most of the fatalities occur while crossing the road. So while getting off and walking may feel safer, it might not be safer.
Giving way to all drivers will reinforce the belief some have that they don't have to give way to cyclists. That may put some other cyclist in danger down the line.
If I stop every time that another road user *could* do something inadvertent and illegal that would put me in danger, then cycling is no longer a form of long distance travel, and more like an expensive microscooter that is hard to carry. I will have actually given up cycling in all but name.
And for the record, I'm happy enough on Hyde Park Corner, Chiswick Roundabout, the Hammersmith Gyratory and even this monster I stumbled on last year. Well, was happy enough ..


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## fossyant (6 Jun 2018)

jefmcg said:


> That is for people who have only been in one collision, or none and are worried by the statistics. But now I have been in 3, I am my own study. I know my denominator, it's 52,155km. So one collision with a car every 17,000km or so.
> 
> If the pattern holds, I'll be due another by the time I replace my next bottom bracket. (where's the rueful laughter emoji?)



I ran on one nasty every three years, but 2 very nasty ones in just over 14 months finished my road cycling. My back is permanently knackered now. I am not goin through the pain, worry, financial implications and family anxiety ever again.


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## Vantage (6 Jun 2018)

Sorry to learn of your off, but glad you're ok.
From memory, I've been taken out by drivers 3 times and 2 were my own fault. On foot I've been taken out once and again that was my own stupidy at fault. Lost count of how many close calls I've had on the bike though and with 2 or 3 exceptions, none were my doing. One thing I've learnt is that with a bit of time, the confidence to get back on the bike and ride comes back, along with the smiles per miles.
One thing I would say is that as I'm getting older, my take on who has right of way/priority is slowly getting to the 'couldn't care less who goes first' stage. Increasingly, I'm letting drivers out rather than making them wait their turn. I end up being a happier less stressed cyclist and they can go about their business not having another 'bloody cyclist' to hate for holding them up. 
I could put them in their place and claim my road space, but lets face it, they won't learn anything from it. They'll just bitch about us cyclists not belonging on their roads.


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## jefmcg (6 Jun 2018)

fossyant said:


> I ran on one nasty every three years, but 2 very nasty ones in just over 14 months finished my road cycling. My back is permanently knackered now. I am not goin through the pain, worry, financial implications and family anxiety ever again.




I followed your saga. I'm happy you are still with us (on cc, that is, but of course also in the world)


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## fossyant (6 Jun 2018)

jefmcg said:


> I followed your saga. I'm happy you are still with us (on cc, that is, but of course also in the world)



Glad you are OK. I never expected a badly broken spine at 13 mph, but shoot happens, and I'm not sure Skolly expected a fractured skull and broken neck either. At least we are still here and walking. Enjoying the MTB though.


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## Rickshaw Phil (7 Jun 2018)

*Thread moved to General Cycling as requested.* If everyone can keep on topic and avoid arguing with each other that would be great.

I am very sorry to hear about the crash @jefmcg. I'm glad you are alright and I hope that the insurance company won't mess you about.


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## Globalti (7 Jun 2018)

If it's any consolation to those who have been hit by emerging cars, a couple of years ago a car pulled out right in front of my car, the driver just didn't look. I'd have hit him if I hadn't swerved to the opposite carriageway and gone round him. So it's not just cyclists.


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## User10119 (7 Jun 2018)

@jefmcg - a few years back when @kimble was somewhat disenchanted with cycling the same dull old familiar loop round the mean streets of Mordor because they were really restricted in how far they could go due to injury, we organised a little pootle round my (different) dull old familiar (to me) loop of the sainted flatlands (and since The Knee had improved a lot by the time we went, even added a teeny tiny bit of hilly stuff and a very nearly 50mph descent for the 'bent) in effort to restart the ol' mojo. If you could bear to go slow enough (and trust me, I am very very very slow at the moment) you'd be most welcome to visit the Den one weekend and go a'pootling, if it might help you remember that you quite like riding a bike?


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## jefmcg (7 Jun 2018)

@vickster is lending me one of her bikes, while I cogitate!


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## Arjimlad (7 Jun 2018)

Sorry to read this, I hope things work out OK for you and that you are able to rediscover the joys of cycling !


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## vickster (7 Jun 2018)

Arjimlad said:


> Sorry to read this, I hope things work out OK for you and that you are able to rediscover the joys of cycling !


On a bike with only 1 gear


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## jefmcg (7 Jun 2018)

vickster said:


> On a bike with only 1 gear


It's still generous. 

<joke> I mean, you'll be down to only 3 or 4.</joke>


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## vickster (7 Jun 2018)

jefmcg said:


> It's still generous.
> 
> <joke> I mean, you'll be down to only 3 or 4.</joke>


One of those jokes founded in reality


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## si_c (7 Jun 2018)

@jefmcg glad to hear you aren't hurt, and I'm glad that the driver understands what he did wrong, sometimes that is the best outcome you can expect. Hope you're back out on a bike soon.


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## Crackle (7 Jun 2018)

Keep riding, your stats improve our stats - wot?


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## jefmcg (7 Jun 2018)

Crackle said:


> Keep riding, your stats improve our stats - wot?


Which stats are they? KSI per million kilometres?


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## Inertia (7 Jun 2018)

jefmcg said:


> @vickster is lending me one of her bikes, while I cogitate!


Thats awesome, good to see cyclechatters coming together


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## vickster (7 Jun 2018)

Inertia said:


> Thats awesome, good to see cyclechatters coming together


We have been riding together for at least 5 years


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## Wobblers (8 Jun 2018)

Sorry to hear about your off.

Most importantly, I'm glad to hear that you're physically okay. I guess confidence is another matter. It is natural, and to be expected, that your confidence will have taken a knock - you wouldn't be human otherwise.

I can understand that you're probably wondering how to mitigate against some chump who doesn't bother looking. The answer is you probably can't, not all the time - all you can do is to persuade yourself that this sort of incident is actually a rare occurrence. While I, and countless other people, can reel statistics off at you until the cows come home the best way to do that would be to enjoy more incident-free miles on a bike and experience the rarity.



jefmcg said:


> That is for people who have only been in one collision, or none and are worried by the statistics. But now I have been in 3, I am my own study. I know my denominator, it's 52,155km. So one collision with a car every 17,000km or so.
> 
> If the pattern holds, I'll be due another by the time I replace my next bottom bracket. (where's the rueful laughter emoji?)



This is the thing: it;s a random stochastic process. _There is no pattern_. It could happen again tomorrow - but given the frequency, that is extremely unlikely. Or it could never happen again. You certainly won't be due another after 17,000 km. But this I do know: your minds are very good at seeing patterns where there are none. Such clusters are actually quite common, more so than most people realise. I'd be very suspicious if there were no such clustering - though that's unlikely to be of much comfort to you!

There's been a couple of people who've commented that they've been knocked off more than once. To add to that anecdata, I'll just say that in the 40,000+ miles I've done in the last 10 years, I've never been knocked off, for what that's worth.


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## alicat (8 Jun 2018)

Sorry to hear about your off. My worst collision was identical. 

It took me a while to get back on and I am wary of roundabouts. However I am glad I did. My next off wasn't for 6 years and that was partly my fault.


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## Cuchilo (8 Jun 2018)

Dont let the B'stards get you down ! Probably the wrong word " down " 

Dont let them win !


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## jefmcg (8 Jun 2018)

vickster said:


> On a bike with only 1 gear


Now I think about it, only you've given me one gear, and you still have 60+ for yourself. Makes you look pretty selfish.


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## vickster (8 Jun 2018)

Weeellllll if that’s your attitude....What time should I be in this evening for you to return it


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## jefmcg (8 Jun 2018)

vickster said:


> Weeellllll if that’s your attitude....What time should I be in this evening for you to return it


I'll come off to borrow a few more gears if that's ok.


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## mjr (8 Jun 2018)

Dogtrousers said:


> The scenario it represents is one of my biggest fears. On a roundabout, car approaching from the left, has he seen me? Is he decelerating to a stop or just slowing down looking for other cars? My approach is to try to use another vehicle as a minder but this isn't always possible.


And that's not possible on the sort affecting the OP. I suspect it was a crossroads originally and has had a mini-roundabout bodged in to facilitate ratrunning. One of my few collisions occurred on a similar bodged-in mini, although with better visibility than this one. @User may know it: the junction of the Scaurs and High Street Worle.



> many of the roundabouts I tend encounter are a bit faster and freer flowing, often with 2 lane dual carriageways entering and exiting. Sometime you see a bike path that then crosses the main road at the entrance/exit point on these roundabouts. This can sometimes feel more risky than taking on the roundabout as an ordinary vehicle.


It can, but it can also feel much safer. The devil's in the detail about the angles it crosses traffic and motorist sightlines entering and exiting. Just painting a cycle lane around most flared UK roundabout layouts that seem designed for high motorist speeds would result in something very nasty indeed, whereas ones around most Belgian layouts (where motorists seem to enter squarer and turn more on and off) feel OK because it means you mostly seem to cross from where a conflicting entering motorist looks for other motorists anyway and there's more of a habit of giving way to people crossing when turning off - which is actually in our highway code for walkers but very rarely obeyed.

Bodged-in mini-roundabouts inevitably end up more like UK flares than continental ones, I think.


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## jefmcg (8 Jun 2018)

Something reminded me of terrible advice for cyclists. It comes from the NSW (Sydney) Government. 

*Roundabouts and bicycle riders*
_Bicycle riders are allowed to turn right from the left hand lane. When passing each exit, the rider must give way to any vehicle leaving the roundabout from that exit.

_


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## mjr (8 Jun 2018)

jefmcg said:


> Something reminded me of terrible advice for cyclists. It comes from the NSW (Sydney) Government.
> 
> *Roundabouts and bicycle riders*
> _Bicycle riders are allowed to turn right from the left hand lane. When passing each exit, the rider must give way to any vehicle leaving the roundabout from that exit.
> ...


That's even worse than our http://highwaycode.info/rule/187 - but merely telling motorists to give way to left-lane riders continuing round is pretty ineffective in practice, so at least cyclists aren't normally taught to stay left any more. We used to be


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## swansonj (8 Jun 2018)

jefmcg said:


> I'll come off to borrow a few more gears if that's ok.


I have a few gears to spare. I just changed the cassette on the tandem, so I have a spare 7 gears sitting on my bench.....


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## jefmcg (8 Jun 2018)

Just got one of those phishing calls "just calling to confirm that you've been in an accident on the last two to three years" 

I don't usually get angry at these calls, but I am afraid I used a bad word.


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## fossyant (8 Jun 2018)

jefmcg said:


> Just got one of those phishing calls "just calling to confirm that you've been in an accident on the last two to three years"
> 
> I don't usually get angry at these calls, but I am afraid I used a bad word.



Welcome to the club.


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## raleighnut (8 Jun 2018)

jefmcg said:


> Just got one of those phishing calls "just calling to confirm that you've been in an accident on the last two to three years"
> 
> I don't usually get angry at these calls, but I am afraid I used a bad word.


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## jefmcg (8 Jun 2018)

McWobble said:


> This is the thing: it;s a random stochastic process. _There is no pattern_. It could happen again tomorrow - but given the frequency, that is extremely unlikely. Or it could never happen again. You certainly won't be due another after 17,000 km. But this I do know: your minds are very good at seeing patterns where there are none. Such clusters are actually quite common, more so than most people realise. I'd be very suspicious if there were no such clustering - though that's unlikely to be of much comfort to you!



That's some old school mansplaining right there.

Specifically, it's a Bernoulli process.

Imagine if I had a giant opaque lotto machine full of red and white balls. I want to know how many red balls there are. Obviously the best way to do this would be to open the machine and count them. But I can't do that, all I can do is draw out a single ball, observe it's colour, then return it and repeat. If the first ball is white, then all I know is that there is a white ball in the box. If the first 10 balls are white then it's probable that a majority of the balls are white. It's possible that there is only one white ball, and all the rest are red but that's unlikely. If the 11th ball is red, the only thing I know for sure is there are some red balls as well. Even if there are a million white balls and only one red ball it is equally possible for me to draw a red ball on the first try or the millionth, but of course it's much less likely to a red ball in the first 100 tries than to get one in the first million tries. It would not be foolish for me to suspect there is a high number of red balls, as the more there are, the higher the chances of getting one in the first dozen tries. That's the so-called demoninator effect, which worries someone after their first crash or reading about other people's collisions. But that's not the case here, I had - I'm guessing - 20,000 trials before I got my first "red ball", and a lot between that and my 3rd. It is possible it's a "cluster" - albeit one spread evenly over a long time - but it's more likely to be showing regression to mean, and the actual P value is quite close to 3/55,000. I was joking about having another collision within 17,000 km, but if someone opens a book on the chances of me being hit by a car in the next 55,000km*, the smart money would be on the 1-to-5-collisions bracket. 



McWobble said:


> To add to that anecdata, I'll just say that in the 40,000+ miles I've done in the last 10 years, I've never been knocked off, for what that's worth.


Not a lot. Why should I be interested in the contents of your lotto machine when I have so much data from mine? Sure, maybe I have been unlucky but maybe you have just been lucky. Or maybe my P is bigger than your P <pause in memory of Fnaar>, because we are different people with different riding styles on different roads.

* Do not do that!


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## mjr (8 Jun 2018)

Dogtrousers said:


> Actually what I was referring to was the style of bike path that turns to the left approaching the roundabout then crosses the incoming road with a shared use crossing _before _it reaches the roundabout (possibly with a refuge half way across).


Even there, the devil's in the detail. If the cycleway (everything but motorways is shared use) crosses perpendicular about a car's length back, it can be fine and occurs in plenty of places on the continent:





but of course, UK councils usually fark it up with bad approach angles, priority backwards so cyclists effectively are expected to look through 270° simultaneously to decide whether they should give way, too many lanes to cross and no crossing markings or warning signs on the carriageway, like this:




ETA: I see streetview came through after yet another motorist had crashed through the leg of the direction sign on the splitter island. Skiddy road indeed! 



> What you're describing, a cycle lane around the perimeter of the roundabout itself sounds hideous and confusing. If I saw such a thing I would ignore it. I probably have seen them, and I probably have ignored them.


They are rare in the UK and that's probably a good thing with how badly we do them. I think this example from Newbury has been removed:




(source)


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## Ming the Merciless (8 Jun 2018)

Sorry to hear about being knocked off. Hope you continue riding your bike. It is such a life affirming activity.


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## jefmcg (8 Jun 2018)

<sigh>this is going to be a process</sigh>

I headed out for a test ride, then got an invitation to coffee with @vickster which I readily accepted despite her complete failure to offer me any more gears. On the way, I stopped to understand why I couldn't clip in with my right foot, and it turned out that all the walking I did when borrowing the bike (I wore my SPDs but decided I was carrying too much to safely ride. Ironically one of the things I was carrying was a bag with a pannier rack) wore the cleat down so there was no lip at the front. That caused me a couple of scares when my foot slipped off, but I modified and slowed my riding to be safe again. I think it's probably the sad demise of my shoes, but with over 32,000km on them, I guess I can't complain. It's certainly not worth putting new cleats on these beat up old shoes.

The journey home was uneventful until *<tl;dr? Start here> *a couple of kilometres from home, a pensioner (I guess from her hairdo) in her 80/90s hatchback passed me dangerously closely. I picked up the pace to bang on her passenger door and shout at her (yeah, I know, don't lecture me please) but she caught the lights I didn't, so I let it go. I reached a partially light controlled roundabout that I know how to navigate, but found myself in the wrong lane with a car up my arse, so dismounted. I was shaking and on the verge of tears from the previous encounter.

I'm not giving up, but it's going to a hard road back.


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## swansonj (8 Jun 2018)

I so much want to find you and give you a big hug but have a virtual one instead.


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## User10119 (8 Jun 2018)

What size feet have you got? I realise I don't know actually if you're munchkin or Goliath size... but I have a virtually unused pair of Lake (I think) shoes knocking about that I was very generously donated when I needed to go clipless for stoking purposes several years ago. They've done one Dun Run and one Random Tandem with me, plus one Rally Night Ride-ette and a FNRttC (and SMRback) with someone else. You'd be welcome to 'em if size 6 or 6.5 ( I'd have to find them to check) is any use.


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## tallliman (8 Jun 2018)

Good luck and keep going @jefmcg, you'll get there. It might take time but if you want to do it, you will.


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## slowmotion (9 Jun 2018)

jefmcg said:


> That's some old school mansplaining right there.
> 
> Specifically, it's a Bernoulli process.
> 
> !



I thought Bernoulli dealt with fluid dynamics and suction and vacuum stuff. If you are in sea plane when it suddenly breaks free of the bonds of the liquid under its floats, and soars into the air, you'll get it.

After further investigation on Google, I now know that he had an interest in statistics. I feel utterly ashamed at my possible venture into mansplaining


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## DCLane (9 Jun 2018)

jefmcg said:


> <sigh>this is going to be a process</sigh>
> 
> I'm not giving up, but it's going to a hard road back.



A hard road it may be, but the journey gets easier.

Keep going


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## raleighnut (9 Jun 2018)

jefmcg said:


> <sigh>this is going to be a process</sigh>
> 
> I headed out for a test ride, then got an invitation to coffee with @vickster which I readily accepted despite her complete failure to offer me any more gears. On the way, I stopped to understand why I couldn't clip in with my right foot, and it turned out that all the walking I did when borrowing the bike (I wore my SPDs but decided I was carrying too much to safely ride. Ironically one of the things I was carrying was a bag with a pannier rack) wore the cleat down so there was no lip at the front. That caused me a couple of scares when my foot slipped off, but I modified and slowed my riding to be safe again. I think it's probably the sad demise of my shoes, but with over 32,000km on them, I guess I can't complain. It's certainly not worth putting new cleats on these beat up old shoes.
> 
> ...


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## betty swollocks (9 Jun 2018)

saccadic masking.
I wish you all the best.
IMO flying lumps of metal controlled by fallible humans should never be allowed on our roads and if I was dictator, I'd ban them.
If you have not already read it, may I suggest you read the linked article which explains why motorists sometimes genuinely don't see you, even when they have 'looked'.
It makes scary reading, but also makes you think about how, knowing the ways human vision works, you can amend your cycling style, to minimise dangers presented to you even more and thus ride with regained confidence.


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## jefmcg (9 Jun 2018)

Dogtrousers said:


> Sorry for hijacking your thread with a discussion of weird roundabout cycle lanes @jefmcg Sorry I can't offer you a hug. I don't do hugging. But I'd offer you one of my pork pies if that were possible.


No problem with hijacking; I asked for this thread to be moved away from personal matters so people could discuss stuff like this. 

And hugging?  I'm a sometimes hugger, but a very reluctant huggee. i.e. I will (after acquiring proper consent) hug someone who seems to be in need, however I do not enjoy hugs - especially from strangers - when I am distressed. 

Forum hugs are always welcome, of course. 
[QUOTE 5271534, member: 10119"]What size feet have you got? I realise I don't know actually if you're munchkin or Goliath size... but I have a virtually unused pair of Lake (I think) shoes knocking about that I was very generously donated when I needed to go clipless for stoking purposes several years ago. They've done one Dun Run and one Random Tandem with me, plus one Rally Night Ride-ette and a FNRttC (and SMRback) with someone else. You'd be welcome to 'em if size 6 or 6.5 ( I'd have to find them to check) is any use.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the offer, but I have to demure because 

I have hobbit feet, so they won't fit. 
I do have a spare pair, though from Aldi or Lidl, so they aren't going to last like the Shimano ones. 
I'll take you up on that offer of a ride when I get my groove back.


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## swansonj (9 Jun 2018)

swansonj said:


> I so much want to find you and give you a big hug but have a virtual one instead.





jefmcg said:


> ...
> 
> And hugging?  I'm a sometimes hugger, but a very reluctant huggee. i.e. I will (after acquiring proper consent) hug someone who seems to be in need, however I do not enjoy hugs - especially from strangers - when I am distressed.
> 
> Forum hugs are always welcome, of course.....





swansonj said:


> I so much want to find you and buy you a big drink but have a virtual hug instead.


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## Alan O (9 Jun 2018)

jefmcg said:


> I'll take you up on that offer of a ride when I get my groove back.


I think I have a spare groove at the back of one of my drawers somewhere, and you're welcome to it if it would help 

Or in other words, I wish there was something I could do to help you get back other than offering mere words - but that's all I have, so they'll have to do. I look forward to hearing when you're back in the saddle, but obviously only when you feel ready.


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## cyberknight (9 Jun 2018)

ianrauk said:


> Actually it's not. There are so many cyclists now on the roads in London that at some junctions, cyclists out number car traffic by many. Over the years car drivers have become very cyclist aware. There is also the fact that a lot of traffic in London (Central mainly) is jammed up so that cycling is far quicker and easier then driving.





User said:


> I have to agree. I have lived in Zone 1 (Pimlico) and Zone 2 (Stamford Hill) and cycled everywhere. On the whole drivers are cyclist aware as there are so many about (with perhaps the exception of cabbies who simply don't give a sh!t).
> 
> I routinely experience worse driving in the countryside, where drivers bomb along country roads that (in the case of locals because they know the road) with little or no consideration for more vulnerable road users.
> 
> That said, the only major accident I've had was in London... but I am more nervous around here than there.


Indeed i have never ridden in lots of traffic but i can see how if they are used to you then they could react to your presence better than the lottery of drivers play racing down country lanes i commute .


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## cyberknight (9 Jun 2018)

jefmcg said:


> Chapter 2.
> 
> Car was a Prius mini cab driven by a (as it turned out) nice Somalian-British driver with a real arse hole of a passenger - older white British male, if it needs to be said.
> 
> ...



Only just seen this so a belated glad your physically ok and i hope you get your head around to the idea of cycling being a fun thing to do asap .Your lucky the plod were passing .Unless your hospitalized they are not that bothered as i found out when i was knocked off last year and it took about 4 days for them to bother coming around even though i went to the station to report it just as the police car zoomed out on an emergency so no one could take my details.

It has taken me about a year to get my mojo back enough to start riding descents and corners like i use to since my faceplant .It does come back and i hope you find yours too.


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## HLaB (9 Jun 2018)

Sorry to read this @jefmcg (well the first and last pages, I never read in between.

As you're finding out painfully some drivers can be prats and although you shouldn't have to can you adapt your riding to allow for them; perhaps forgetting about priority (some drivers often don't) and think about safety (some drivers often dont do that either )


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## Reynard (11 Jun 2018)

Ouch! Only just seen this, but sending good vibes from me and the furry girls.  I know you don't want hugs, but maybe some feline headbutts and purrs might do the trick?  Oh, and chocolate. Chocolate *always* helps.


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## jefmcg (25 Jun 2018)

I am not making progress at all. I fumble starting to ride, and I am having many near clipless moments, which I would put down to riding a strange bike, except that didn't happen when I first started. I seem to be getting less and less confident. I actually stopped to have a cry on Kingston Bridge, after finding a short an uneventful journey on very familiar roads extremely stressful. I can't handle a roundabout unless there are no cars in sight - I am walking across more of them than I cycle across, and I regard every car approaching a stop sign to my left a potential assailant. I even shouted "look out!" to an Addison Lee moped, even though it was clear he was going to stop where he should. 

Every time I go out I am less confident.


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## Crackle (25 Jun 2018)

I have no idea how you should approach this, I can only recount my own coping strategy. Personally I need time to rationalize incidents like this and put them in perspective. If _I_ was undergoing this, I'd simply lob my bike in a corner and forget all about it for a while until one day the yearning to get back on took me and the wisdom of time had tempered me. I cannot say what you should do but don't be hard on yourself about this.


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## si_c (25 Jun 2018)

Like @Crackle I can't offer anything other than my sympathies as I've not been in the same position and we all respond to trauma differently, so no response is wrong, you can't change how you feel. 

Perhaps riding off-road somewhere would help build your confidence back up? You could then slowly reintroduce road riding, either at quieter hours or in small doses or both.


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## Arjimlad (25 Jun 2018)

jefmcg said:


> I am not making progress at all. I fumble starting to ride, and I am having many near clipless moments, which I would put down to riding a strange bike, except that didn't happen when I first started. I seem to be getting less and less confident. I actually stopped to have a cry on Kingston Bridge, after finding a short an uneventful journey on very familiar roads extremely stressful. I can't handle a roundabout unless there are no cars in sight - I am walking across more of them than I cycle across, and I regard every car approaching a stop sign to my left a potential assailant. I even shouted "look out!" to an Addison Lee moped, even though it was clear he was going to stop where he should.
> 
> Every time I go out I am less confident.



"Hope you're feeling better soon" isn't enough to say here. Perhaps you need some therapy ? I can relate to your descent into "paranoia" though.

CBT ? Talking therapy ?

Perhaps someone more qualified to comment could come up with something. Well done for not giving up thus far !


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## User10119 (25 Jun 2018)

I don't know that I can offer any 'useful' comment at all - but didn't want to just read and run, so to speak. I hope you get back to where you want to be; take the time you need and all that.


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## fossyant (25 Jun 2018)

Have you got anywhere you can ride 'off road' - that's how I started back, up and down the canal. Although I'm no longer riding roads much - not scared as I'm still riding quickly off road, but I just don't want another knock (7 months off work at the time, and still off work occasionally).


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## mjr (25 Jun 2018)

Sorry to read it's still difficult. 


User13710 said:


> Wot Crackle said. Don't worry about it for a while, give yourself permission to put cycling aside.


London buses and tube experiences or the slowness of walking should encourage anyone to get back on a bike.


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## Supersuperleeds (25 Jun 2018)

jefmcg said:


> I am not making progress at all. I fumble starting to ride, and I am having many near clipless moments, which I would put down to riding a strange bike, except that didn't happen when I first started. I seem to be getting less and less confident. I actually stopped to have a cry on Kingston Bridge, after finding a short an uneventful journey on very familiar roads extremely stressful. I can't handle a roundabout unless there are no cars in sight - I am walking across more of them than I cycle across, and I regard every car approaching a stop sign to my left a potential assailant. I even shouted "look out!" to an Addison Lee moped, even though it was clear he was going to stop where he should.
> 
> Every time I go out I am less confident.



Have you thought about temporarily moving onto flat pedals, just until the confidence comes back.?


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## Slick (25 Jun 2018)

jefmcg said:


> I am not making progress at all. I fumble starting to ride, and I am having many near clipless moments, which I would put down to riding a strange bike, except that didn't happen when I first started. I seem to be getting less and less confident. I actually stopped to have a cry on Kingston Bridge, after finding a short an uneventful journey on very familiar roads extremely stressful. I can't handle a roundabout unless there are no cars in sight - I am walking across more of them than I cycle across, and I regard every car approaching a stop sign to my left a potential assailant. I even shouted "look out!" to an Addison Lee moped, even though it was clear he was going to stop where he should.
> 
> Every time I go out I am less confident.


As with everyone else, I'm certainly sorry to hear this even though I've really nothing to offer that's not already been mentioned. I do hope that you find a way through it as it sounds like heavy going at the moment. Maybe a break from it for a while would help?


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## Reynard (25 Jun 2018)

Hope you get your mojo back soon, hun xxx


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## gaijintendo (25 Jun 2018)

I am really sorry to hear this update. I would absolutely not torture yourself any further, and get back in the saddle when you have nowhere to get to, and the time to enjoy it in a leisurely way.

Ultimately, bike or not, don't feel bad about being out of the saddle. It will always be there for you.


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## ianrauk (26 Jun 2018)

As what everyone else has said.
Perhaps stick to leisure cycling for a while and let the train take the strain.


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## User16625 (26 Jun 2018)

What would give me more confidence in that situation is the ability to injure drivers who have posed a threat to me.


jefmcg said:


> I am not making progress at all. I fumble starting to ride, and I am having many near clipless moments, which I would put down to riding a strange bike, except that didn't happen when I first started. I seem to be getting less and less confident. I actually stopped to have a cry on Kingston Bridge, after finding a short an uneventful journey on very familiar roads extremely stressful. I can't handle a roundabout unless there are no cars in sight - I am walking across more of them than I cycle across, and I regard every car approaching a stop sign to my left a potential assailant. I even shouted "look out!" to an Addison Lee moped, even though it was clear he was going to stop where he should.
> 
> Every time I go out I am less confident.



Thats really sht mate.

What would give me more confidence in that situation is the ability to injure drivers who have posed a threat to me. I guess I'd be seriously piste off. Unfortunately the only way to do that would be to carry a gun, and I would hate the right to bear arms. 

I consider myself a confident cyclist but I still avoid large roundabouts when ever possible. Have you tried MTBing? Do you think you would feel better doing that? Doesnt have to be technical stuff. I'm no pro and I enjoy both road and mountain biking.


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## froze (29 Jun 2018)

The US is starting to put in roundabouts too, and while they are nice in that you don't have to stop if there is no car to yield to but I can see that they could be quite dangerous for a bike to be on, so I avoid them if possible but I'm also not scared of them either, I have used them but it's all about watching for the other guy, even though they are supposed to yield to me if I'm in the circle they won't so I have to yield to them...better to yield than to die in the right.


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## Lonestar (29 Jun 2018)

froze said:


> The US is starting to put in roundabouts too, and while they are nice in that you don't have to stop if there is no car to yield to but I can see that they could be quite dangerous for a bike to be on, so I avoid them if possible but I'm also not scared of them either, I have used them but it's all about watching for the other guy, even though they are supposed to yield to me if I'm in the circle they won't so I have to yield to them...better to yield than to die in the right.



Yup so true..irritating as fcuk but London is full of brainless selfish idiots and although I get mildly irritated I'd rather give way to two tons of idiot instead of being in the "right" and putting myself at risk.Also I try and learn as much about my routes if possible so I know what to look out for and how to handle it.

Hope you can get your confidence back @jefmcg


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## fossyant (15 Sep 2018)

Ive not ridden on the road since breaking my spine. MTB only but I am fortunate to be right next to the Peaks and have loads of off road options. Never again I am afraid. Spines break quite easily. Seen too many now. Dont fancy spending the next 30 or more years pooing and weeing my pants and being a burdon.

Hope you are OK


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## mjr (15 Sep 2018)

froze said:


> The US is starting to put in roundabouts too, and while they are nice in that you don't have to stop if there is no car to yield to but I can see that they could be quite dangerous for a bike to be on, so I avoid them if possible but I'm also not scared of them either, I have used them but it's all about watching for the other guy, even though they are supposed to yield to me if I'm in the circle they won't so I have to yield to them...better to yield than to die in the right.


Whereas it's sometimes said Belgians would prefer to crash than yield when they're not legally required to, and the number of dented front wings in the country makes it seem credible... fortunately they seem to make an exception for cyclists and give way whenever reasonably possible.


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## fossyant (15 Sep 2018)

@mjr - I still ride, but If I now mess up, it's my fault. MTB is far more dangerous. I am not going through this legal system again - I'm still trying to get settlement and it's had massive impacts financially, medically, and family to me. Fortunately, I hope you haven't had this impact. The family impact is beyond describing.

I got away with being able to walk - that was so so lucky.

You can appreciate why I'll take my cycling somewhere when I can control it. I can ride safe on the road but be still mangled. I can ride safe off road but be OK. I invested in a bike that will all;ow me to do it

I've come from a racing background. My cycling is not about plodding about, it's about experiencing the elements.


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## alicat (15 Sep 2018)




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## jefmcg (15 Sep 2018)

@User9609 - thanks for asking. Making slow progress - but it is progress. I've had a pseudo diagnosis, and have integrated it which is allowing me to increase my cycling. I may post more when I am less angry.


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## alicat (16 Sep 2018)

@User9609, do you know how rude the swear word you used is?


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## Johnno260 (16 Sep 2018)

Glad to hear you’re physically ok, I hope you get your confidence back soon. 

Is it possible to do some more rural cycling to get some confidence back on less busy roads?

When I commute in my most enjoyable part is being in the sticks, once I hit Tunbridge Wells I get more anxious as people seem to be rushing around more and less aware, it’s obviously not as packed as London but from a country bumpkins point of view still a little scary, and it’s not a great experience driving around either. 

I hope you get back in the saddle with no worries soon, you’re persevering which is a good sign, just try and build your self back up slowly. 

Also would flats help you with the cleats not engaging? being able to just put your foot down may give you a little confidence boost, just take small steps and try and do things that enhance your confidence.


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## Phaeton (16 Sep 2018)

Welcome back, good to hear you're getting more confident again


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## Katherine (16 Sep 2018)

*Mod note:*
Some unhelpful posts have now been removed and all the quotes of and references to them have either been removed or edited. 
Please report any further posts that you do not like rather than argue in the thread. Thanks.


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## lazybloke (22 Dec 2018)

Six months on, @jefmcg. Hope you've been able to regain your enjoyment of two wheels?


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## Ilovehills (22 Dec 2018)

jefmcg said:


> Friday a week and a half ago I was heading west from Kensington. I entered a roundabout heading straight through. There was a car approaching from my left, but it was well short of the line, and I had priority. It was moving towards the give way line like it wasn't stopping, but - and I hate this - every car in London approaches a roundabout like they aren't going to stop. But you are well ahead of me here; It didn't stop, pringling my wheel and leaving my carbon fork under suspicion. But I'm ok, and... I don't think my insurance claim will be challenged.
> 
> But... the bike is at the LBS - possibly a right off but I've taken no action to get it back on the road or replaced. Cycling was one of my few pleasures and my main form of transport, and I may be done. How many more collisions (none of them so far my fault) before I am maimed?
> 
> ...


Car drivers are on tw*t mode at the moment, on my 40 minute commute I have numerous arguments, narrow, scrapes and near misses, whereas 5 years ago I had none. I HATE cars, and the majority of peanuts that drive them, but I will not let them win and force me off the road.

You`ve had a run of bad luck, and I hope it`s at an end


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## alicat (22 Dec 2018)

> Car drivers are on tw*t mode at the moment, on my 40 minute commute I have numerous arguments, narrow, scrapes and near misses, whereas 5 years ago I had none.



IMHO it's a Christmas thing. Too much to get done and too much going on in their lives to concentrate on driving.


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## Ilovehills (22 Dec 2018)

alicat said:


> IMHO it's a Christmas thing. Too much to get done and too much going on in their lives to concentrate on driving.


I wish it was only a Christmas thing, it`s been noticable over the last 12 months or so unfortunately


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## Phaeton (23 Dec 2018)

Ilovehills said:


> I wish it was only a Christmas thing, it`s been noticable over the last 12 months or so unfortunately


12 months? I've noticed the decline in standard of driving for the past 10-15 years or so, but this also ties in with the Me Me Me attitude of a lot of people, which also ties in nicely with the rise in Social Media & the move from face to face communication.


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## srw (23 Dec 2018)

Phaeton said:


> 12 months? I've noticed the decline in standard of driving for the past 10-15 years or so, but this also ties in with the Me Me Me attitude of a lot of people, which also ties in nicely with the rise in Social Media & the move from face to face communication.


Really?

As a regular cyclist and pedestrian I think driving standards are generally pretty good, and have certainly got better over the last few years. If you go about your business with the attitude that most people really, _really_ don't want to hurt you you discover that it's true.


[edit]
The irony of someone naming themselves after a driver who was legendarily dangerous 2500 years ago complaining about declining driving standards isn't lost on me...


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## derrick (23 Dec 2018)

Standard of driving is bad over recent years. I wonder where this comes from.


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## fossyant (23 Dec 2018)

Driving attitudes have got loads worse, I notice this commuting into Manchester by bike, and now by car.

I nearly broadsided a car this week as they went into a right turn lane, then veered back into the left and decided to take the next 'right' - can't blame it on not knowing the area as they lived on the street. Told them I nearly ran into them because they didn't indicate, just got a fowl mouthed torrent of abuse from a woman - and they were in a £30k plus car. Many people dont give a hoot - I've seen it. Tempted to pop a merry christmas card in the driver's house that smashed my spine !


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## jefmcg (23 Dec 2018)

Thanks guys for the interest, but I don't think this thread is healthy for me anymore. I don't need any help catastrophising, so I am putting this thread on ignore 

Byeee!


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## Johnno260 (23 Dec 2018)

It’s not necessarily the standard, but people’s attitude has regressed. 

Be it on 2 or 4 wheels I see so much bad driving it’s a joke, mostly stems it seems from people leaving everything to the last min. 

When I drive to work I now leave way earlier than I need to so I avoid most of the idiots. 

Best argument I have seen after a fender bender was the guy at fault screaming I was indicating and you didn’t get out the way, he basically slammed into the side of someone when he realised he was in the wrong lane.


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## fossyant (23 Dec 2018)

There are some idiots out there. Early on last year, an elderly woman abused about 10 of us on MTB's. We'd come off the hills via a legal route, but the only way through to the road, was a tarmaced footpath next to the river. It was over 12ft wide. We rode down slowly (checked for pedestrians), then as we got to the road, this old woman was walking down the middle of the road abusing us for using the footpath (when there was no other route). I just don't get people. 

She can't have been right in the head as who goes abusing 10 blokes in the middle of nowhere. It was a good job we are all decent fellows. The worse we responded was 'good morning'


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## snorri (23 Dec 2018)

fossyant said:


> , this old woman was walking down the middle of the road


 It is an amusing/irritating feature of the British pysche that solo walkers must walk in the middle of joint user routes and be inconvenienced and irritated by having to deviate their course for everyone, on foot or on wheels , who may be coming towards them or overtaking.
IME of using paths in mainland Europe, people there seem much more likely to walk or cycle on the same side as local laws require for the road network thus avoiding the minor confrontations so common in the UK..


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## srw (23 Dec 2018)

snorri said:


> It is an amusing/irritating feature of the British pysche that solo walkers must walk in the middle of joint user routes and be inconvenienced and irritated by having to deviate their course for everyone, on foot or on wheels , who may be coming towards them or overtaking.
> IME of using paths in mainland Europe, people there seem much more likely to walk or cycle on the same side as local laws require for the road network thus avoiding the minor confrontations so common in the UK..


It's not _entirely _unreasonable for someone walking onto a footpath (the clue's in the name) to walk in the middle, and to be really quite miffed to discover that it's occupied by someone who has no legal basis for being there. If it's a footpath, the right thing to do as a cyclist is to become a pedestrian - something you can do in an instant.


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## Phaeton (23 Dec 2018)

srw said:


> It's not _entirely _unreasonable for someone walking onto a footpath (the clue's in the name) to walk in the middle, and to be really quite miffed to discover that it's occupied by someone who has no legal basis for being there. If it's a footpath, the right thing to do as a cyclist is to become a pedestrian - something you can do in an instant.


My My somebody got out the wrong side of the bed this morning, 2 rants in 3 hours


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## snorri (23 Dec 2018)

srw said:


> It's not _entirely _unreasonable for someone walking onto a footpath (the clue's in the name) to walk in the middle, and to be really quite miffed to discover that it's occupied by someone who has no legal basis for being there. If it's a footpath, the right thing to do as a cyclist is to become a pedestrian - something you can do in an instant.


I've "Liked" your post because I agree with what you have said about _foot _paths.


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## Phaeton (23 Dec 2018)

Erm the woman wasn't on the footpath, she hadn't got as far as it, so she had not knowledge of how fast they rode down it, or at least that's how I read it.


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## srw (23 Dec 2018)

Phaeton said:


> Erm the woman wasn't on the footpath, she hadn't got as far as it, so she had not knowledge of how fast they rode down it, or at least that's how I read it.


But she did know (a) there were 10 of them, and (b) they were cycling on a footpath. Which is reason to get miffed - even if it's not reason to have a rant.


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## HLaB (23 Dec 2018)

alicat said:


> IMHO it's a Christmas thing. Too much to get done and too much going on in their lives to concentrate on driving.


We seen a lot of that Christmas thing this morning as folk desperate to get to the shops weren't cared what was in their way. We had quite a few numpties overtaking into on coming traffic. One numpty slam slam on his brakes behind our group of 5, slam his horn and overtook straight at an oncoming transit and swerve in on us. Another was so desperate to overtake the group that was only going 22-35mph village they overtook closely using the narrow hatched central reserve to avoid the oncoming car. Etc, etc, etc (more incidents in a few hours than I've had all year) 
Fortunately once the morning craziness passed, drivers went back to the polite type


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## Bazzer (23 Dec 2018)

alicat said:


> IMHO it's a Christmas thing. Too much to get done and too much going on in their lives to concentrate on driving.


IME drivers not caring about other road users are all year round. I see crap driving and law breaking every week and that is just in my vicinity. Two weeks or so ago I was hit by a closer passer who failed to stop and last week it was only emergency braking which stopped a collision with a parcel delivery van (6am so not delivering parcels).


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## Rickshaw Phil (23 Dec 2018)

Sorry folks but seeing as the OP has clearly stated that she is no longer finding this thread helpful and we are straying into a more general discussion of bad driving behaviour it is time to bring this to a close.


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