# Vuelta a España 2012 (with spoilers)



## smutchin (23 Jul 2012)

Too early? I'm still buzzing after the Tour and don't want to come down yet, and the Olympics isn't enough to sustain my high...

Anyway, the big question: Can Froome do it? I'm not sure myself. His season has been built around peaking for the Tour, and those three weeks are going to have taken a lot out of him. Will he have enough left in the tank for another three weeks of gruelling effort? On the other hand, he's likely to have some strong support, not least in the form of Sergio Henao, who did extremely well in the Giro and had a cracking Tour of Poland.

Contador will be back - can he go straight into racing at that level after two years off? Hmmm. Bit of an unknown quantity but you can't rule him out.

I think on paper I'd have to make Movistar favourites - question is whether they back Cobo or Valverde. Cobo will want to defend his title but Valverde looked towards the end of the Tour like he's coming into some very strong form. They've got a strong team of climbers to back up either man.

Any other names we should be looking at?

d.


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## smutchin (23 Jul 2012)

I'm rather assuming Sky will give Wiggins August off to spend some time with his family!


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## marinyork (23 Jul 2012)

I supppose to me this seems the place to say it, but I think that the turning the corner in cycling in this country started last year at the worlds and the vuelta. That's not to take anything away from what is happening this month or has happened, but rather means that I'm very much looking foward to the vuelta 2012.

I would think Froome will be on the podium again. Van den Broek might be one to watch too.

Edit: the other thing I find interesting is the huge bias towards the north this year (I know this balances out one a few years ago where it was mostly in the south).


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## Crackle (23 Jul 2012)

Cobo looked like he was timing his form for the Vuelta. Gadret had a crap early season, I'd expect him to be there and challenge for a podium place.

No idea yet who Sky will take. Swift, Thomas, Flecha, Froome, who else?


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## PpPete (23 Jul 2012)

Uran and Henao ?
They seemed to alternate good days and bad days in the mountains in the Giro.


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## raindog (23 Jul 2012)

All eyes will be on Berto, who won't be race fit, but will be going flat out for the win I should think. Then, as you say, Cobo and Froome must be favourites too. It's going to be a fascinating three weeks that's for sure.
Starts last week in august doesn't it?


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## smutchin (23 Jul 2012)

Crackle said:


> Cobo looked like he was timing his form for the Vuelta.


 
He's been saying that he would all season. Only question in my mind is whether Valverde will work for him or will expect to be team leader himself.




> Gadret had a crap early season, I'd expect him to be there and challenge for a podium place.


 
Good shout. Rodriguez might fancy his chances too, and maybe some of those who didn't do as well as expected in the Tour - Menchov, Mollema, Gesink.



> No idea yet who Sky will take. Swift, Thomas, Flecha, Froome, who else?


 
Those four plus Uran, Henao, Stannard, Dowsett, Lofkvist would be my (wild) guess.

d.


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## Noodley (23 Jul 2012)

I wonder how good Contador will be? 

I hope he'll be racing clean so probably, like Basso, he'll not be as good as he used to be.


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## smutchin (23 Jul 2012)

By the way... 13 mountain stages, with 37 mountain passes and six summit finishes.


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## ColinJ (23 Jul 2012)

smutchin said:


> By the way... 13 mountain stages, with 37 mountain passes and six summit finishes.


Blimey!

That'll _really_ encourage the peloton to ride clean ....


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## smutchin (23 Jul 2012)

> Cuitu Negru, which has already been baptized the Asturian Bola del Mundo, is an extension of the Pajares road, an offshoot from Brañillin with an average gradient of 13.3%. It covers one ramp of 24% and another of 25%, and its final 500-meter section presents an unrelenting average of 17%. Adding the 2.8 kilometers to the climb to Valgrande-Pajares, the total ascent will be 23.5 kilometers at 6.8%.


 
http://acnbblog2012.wordpress.com/2012/01/06/vuelta-2012-queen-stage-will-end-at-cuitu-negru/

http://www.lavuelta.com/12pr/en/recorrido/index.html?e=16


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## marinyork (23 Jul 2012)

smutchin said:


> http://acnbblog2012.wordpress.com/2012/01/06/vuelta-2012-queen-stage-will-end-at-cuitu-negru/
> 
> http://www.lavuelta.com/12pr/en/recorrido/index.html?e=16


 
That's very cool.


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## Chuffy (23 Jul 2012)

Noodley said:


> I wonder how good Contador will be?
> 
> I hope he'll be racing clean so probably, like Basso, he'll not be as good as he used to be.


Hopefully Valverde will be crap as well. 
Bertie - hmmmmm. Not sure. Vaughters has said that he's seen some of Contador's testing data that which suggests he really is something a bit special, so he's still probably going to be right up there. Ask me again if we see him doing 6.5 w/kg for an hour....


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## rich p (24 Jul 2012)

www.Contador&Cobo.co.esp
Two of the finest role models one could hope to see which, if they do win the Vuelta between them, will leave a nasty taste after the 'New Dawn' feel of the TdF.
You'd think Froome would be too tired mentally and physically to do it but he may be driven by frustration to try. Uran and Henao should do well.
What happened to Mollema and Gesink this tdf? Crashed out or under-performed? I was away for the first 2 weeks so have a few bits of memory missing.


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## raindog (24 Jul 2012)

rich p said:


> What happened to Mollema and Gesink this tdf?


Gesink was battered in crashes and retired. 
It's frustrating because it was obviously going to be interesting to see what he could do - same with Hesjedal.


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## raindog (24 Jul 2012)

User said:


> I not sure if he is riding but if so, I hope Nicolas Roche (bias I know) makes a go for it, he had an excellent TDF, not a great TTer but as there's only one of 40km and carrying good form, I can only hope,


Roche finished just outside the top ten I think? Strange the way he's never really lived up to expectations though, but it must be tough living in the shadow of his dad. I think it was a bit the same for Axel Merckx.


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## rich p (24 Jul 2012)

Nico has less than zilch chance with hills as sharp as those outlined above but iit's unlikely he'll be riding it anyway. I think his best career move would be to become a super-domestique for someone like Wiggins or Froome with an occasional stage win opportunity. He seemed a slightly troubled soul in his autobiog. and a bit in awe of some of the big boys in the peloton.
I coulda been a psychologist, you know, if I'd had the time


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## smutchin (24 Jul 2012)

Stephen had certain advantages that Nico probably lacks... Allegedly. 

Talking of Roche Sr, I was thinking the other day how GB is now officially almost as good as Ireland at cycling. And Australia too. Just need a few more green jerseys... Come on, Cav!

I'm reserving judgment on Cobo. I don't trust the team he's with but the evidence is inconclusive - the estimates I've seen for his power output on the Angliru last year seem to place his performance within the realms of credibility. Just.

Either way, that Cobo vs Froome showdown on stage 17 was one of the most exciting and memorable bike races I've ever seen. Hoping for more of the same this year. 

d.


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## rich p (24 Jul 2012)

Cobo has been suss since he the Saunier Duval days when he allowed Piepoli to beat him in the infamous Ricco tour. Ricco predicted that Piepoli would win on the Hautacam as a reward for helping him. The other two got nicked for EPO but Cobo didn't somehow. Those three were sprinting up the mountains like goats, riding Evans, Schleck etc off their wheel with ease.
He latterly spent a year at Caisse d'Epaigne when he did nothing at all. Moved to a Spanish team and won the Vuelta. Nothing conclusive but definitely high on the radar. Rarely does well outside the national borders. Wiggins has shown that you can do well in races before the event you're targetting so I find his dreadful form prior to 'peaking' at the Vuelta slightly hard to believe. But I'm not a hater or a witchfinder-general!


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## User169 (24 Jul 2012)

rich p said:


> What happened to Mollema and Gesink this tdf? Crashed out or under-performed? I was away for the first 2 weeks so have a few bits of memory missing.


 
Both got a bit bashed up and then retired. Gesink's in London now for the 'lympics and Mollema's riding the post-tour crits, although both are down for Burgos and then the Vuelta.

There's a crit on Thursday not too far from away, so I'll probably go and have a watch. Mostly Rabo and Vacansoleil riders, but Basso and Zubeldia are signed up too.


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## User169 (24 Jul 2012)

raindog said:


> Roche finished just outside the top ten I think? Strange the way he's never really lived up to expectations though, but it must be tough living in the shadow of his dad. I think it was a bit the same for Axel Merckx.


 
Nice little article here about Eddy and Axel..

http://www.rapha.cc/golden-apples


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## rich p (24 Jul 2012)

Thanks - I hope Mollema goes well in the Vuelta.


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## smutchin (24 Jul 2012)

rich p said:


> Nothing conclusive but definitely high on the radar.


 
Yup, I think that about sums it up.

d.


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## david k (24 Jul 2012)

smutchin said:


> the big question: Can Froome do it? I'm not sure myself. His season has been built around peaking for the Tour, and those three weeks are going to have taken a lot out of him. Will he have enough left in the tank for another three weeks of gruelling effort?
> d.


 
or maybe it will help him, the best training you can get ive heard cyclists say


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## Becs (24 Jul 2012)

Does anyone know what channel we'll be able to watch the Vuelta on?


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## perplexed (24 Jul 2012)

It's usually on Eurosport, don't know about ITV4...


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## smutchin (24 Jul 2012)

perplexed said:


> It's usually on Eurosport, don't know about ITV4...


 
ITV4 cobbled together some coverage at the last minute last year when they realised there was British interest. It was a bit slapdash, and didn't have any Phil'n'Paul commentary (you may not necessarily regard this as a bad thing) but it was certainly better than the usual level of terrestrial coverage - ie nothing. I imagine they'll give it better treatment this year, though it's still highly unlikely to have Phil'n'Paul.

d.


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## Becs (24 Jul 2012)

smutchin said:


> ITV4 cobbled together some coverage at the last minute last year when they realised there was British interest. It was a bit slapdash, and didn't have any Phil'n'Paul commentary (you may not necessarily regard this as a bad thing) but it was certainly better than the usual level of terrestrial coverage - ie nothing. I imagine they'll give it better treatment this year, though it's still highly unlikely to have Phil'n'Paul.
> 
> d.


I hope so - I don't have Eurosport and I'm becoming somewhat of an addict


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## lukesdad (24 Jul 2012)

Noodley said:


> I wonder how good Contador will be?
> 
> I hope he'll be racing clean so probably, like Basso, he'll not be as good as he used to be.


He may not but, he'll still be better than the rest.


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## montage (24 Jul 2012)

Hard to see past Contador, though if Froome is on form, we don't really know the true extent of his climbing prowess yet


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## Chuffy (24 Jul 2012)

smutchin said:


> ITV4 cobbled together some coverage at the last minute last year when they realised there was British interest. It was a bit slapdash, and didn't have any Phil'n'Paul commentary (you may not necessarily regard this as a bad thing) but it was certainly better than the usual level of terrestrial coverage - ie nothing. I imagine they'll give it better treatment this year, though it's still highly unlikely to have Phil'n'Paul.
> 
> d.


The Spanish tv coverage last year was pretty dire (loved the dubbed in helicopter noises...) and the commentary bloke (some Aussie who I've never heard of) was terrible. That said, I'm still pathetically grateful to get any coverage at all and the absence of the Chuckle Brothers is no bad thing at all.


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## raindog (24 Jul 2012)

Becs said:


> I hope so - I don't have Eurosport and I'm becoming somewhat of an addict


bookmark this
http://www.procyclinglive.com/livestream/


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## smutchin (24 Jul 2012)

Here's a slightly tangential thought...

Sky to pick Geraint Thomas for the Vuelta in order to get him back into race shape in time for the Worlds in September... hmmm?

d.


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## Chuffy (27 Jul 2012)

Oh well. Andy has deployed the Schleckchute. Bertie vs The Froomedog it is...


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## rich p (28 Jul 2012)

A&F Schleck - anus horribilis

(Can somebody check my spelling. please?)


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## ColinJ (28 Jul 2012)

rich p said:


> A&F Schleck - anus horribilis
> 
> (Can somebody check my spelling. please?)


Unless they are both suffering from piles, you'll be wanting a double-n in there!


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## Chuffy (28 Jul 2012)

ColinJ said:


> Unless they are both suffering from piles, you'll be wanting a double-n in there!


He was right the first time. Horrible arses.


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## marinyork (29 Jul 2012)

smutchin said:


> ITV4 cobbled together some coverage at the last minute last year when they realised there was British interest. It was a bit slapdash, and didn't have any Phil'n'Paul commentary (you may not necessarily regard this as a bad thing) but it was certainly better than the usual level of terrestrial coverage - ie nothing. I imagine they'll give it better treatment this year, though it's still highly unlikely to have Phil'n'Paul.
> 
> d.


 
Matt Keenan was a lot more controversial than any of the regular commentators and opinion on them is quite polarised. Unfortunately ITV4 made the mistake of not having a co-commentator to try and moderate him.

Before ITV4 coverage got ramped up, ITV4 had a red button on satellite and sky circa 2008/9. This was the tour, not the vuelta. In theory this sort of arrangement could also make sense for the vuelta because at the moment satellite and cable aren't 'bandwidth constrained' as the euphemism goes as they were a while back (analogue been switched off on cable, Astra 1N up and running and another on the way). This wouldn't help people though because the people who would get such a service would mostly also get eurosport. I think it's less likely too after what ITV4 did last year.


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## mip (30 Jul 2012)

Will ITV4 definitely be broadcasting the Vuleta this year? Haven't been able to find any evidence either way.


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## Crackle (31 Jul 2012)

rich p said:


> Cobo has been suss since he the Saunier Duval days when he allowed Piepoli to beat him in the infamous Ricco tour. Ricco predicted that Piepoli would win on the Hautacam as a reward for helping him. The other two got nicked for EPO but Cobo didn't somehow. Those three were sprinting up the mountains like goats, riding Evans, Schleck etc off their wheel with ease.
> He latterly spent a year at Caisse d'Epaigne when he did nothing at all. Moved to a Spanish team and won the Vuelta. Nothing conclusive but definitely high on the radar. Rarely does well outside the national borders. Wiggins has shown that you can do well in races before the event you're targetting so I find his dreadful form prior to 'peaking' at the Vuelta slightly hard to believe. But I'm not a hater or a witchfinder-general!


 Rumour is, Cobo has a Chinese swimming coach helping him


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## marinyork (31 Jul 2012)

mip said:


> Will ITV4 definitely be broadcasting the Vuleta this year? Haven't been able to find any evidence either way.


 
Advanced tv guides like digiguide probably will list bits if they are. You need someone to have a look on here for you. Sadly, I no longer have a subscription to digiguide.

If you look on ITV4's website on Friday the 10th of August, it should list that first Saturday of the Vuelta if it is on.

ASO/Unipublic have extended their deal to show the vuelta so I would think that ITV can come to some kind of agreement with them again like last year. I've no idea whether that deal was just a one off or went further into the future. But if it was a one off as it is the same broadcaster with the rights I see now reason why ITV can't get it.


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## lukesdad (31 Jul 2012)

I thought Sastre and Menchov were immense last year. Cobo doesn't have that nonce around him this year. He'll struggle. Froome may not be right physically or mentally. As we know Bertie doesn't need a team the others are just there so he can get the invite. I for one can't wait to see him back.


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## moxey (1 Aug 2012)

lukesdad said:


> As we know Bertie doesn't need a team the others are just there so he can get the invite. I for one can't wait to see him back.


 I'm looking forward to seeing how he does too. It'll be interesting to see how fit he is without being fully race fit


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## mip (1 Aug 2012)

marinyork said:


> Advanced tv guides like digiguide probably will list bits if they are. You need someone to have a look on here for you. Sadly, I no longer have a subscription to digiguide.
> 
> If you look on ITV4's website on Friday the 10th of August, it should list that first Saturday of the Vuelta if it is on.
> 
> ASO/Unipublic have extended their deal to show the vuelta so I would think that ITV can come to some kind of agreement with them again like last year. I've no idea whether that deal was just a one off or went further into the future. But if it was a one off as it is the same broadcaster with the rights I see now reason why ITV can't get it.


Thanks. Tried www.tvbrowser.org but it only has listings up to the 15th.


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## marinyork (1 Aug 2012)

mip said:


> Thanks. Tried www.tvbrowser.org but it only has listings up to the 15th.


 
There's a guy on here who works for ITV, but we haven't seen him knocking around for ages.


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## mip (6 Aug 2012)

Doesn't look like it's going to be broadcast by ITV this year. Disappointing.


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## marinyork (6 Aug 2012)

mip said:


> Doesn't look like it's going to be broadcast by ITV this year. Disappointing.


 
Too early to say imho. I'm going to check again this friday.


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## iLB (6 Aug 2012)

No coverage http://twitter.ie/itvcycling/status/231380373022572544


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## marinyork (6 Aug 2012)

Hmmm fair enough. That's a really big shame.


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## mip (9 Aug 2012)

Looks like they've managed to negotiate something with ASO.

http://www.itv.com/tourdefrance/news/itv-to-show-vuelta-a-espana-highlights-in-2012/

60 mins every evening presented by Imlach. Excellent news.


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## Flying_Monkey (9 Aug 2012)

Sky's team is pretty much as predicted: Froome as the GC contender, with Uran and Henao as deputies, supported by Xandio, Flecha (who will probably be road captain), Pate and Stannard, plus Swift for the sprints.

Saxo Bank can't really match this supporting line-up but Contador can probably do most things on his own, so is it just going to be Sky vs. Contador this year?


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## Chuffy (9 Aug 2012)

Great news on the highlights - that'll do me nicely.

Part of me wants Froome to win - he deserves it after the Tour and last years Vuelta. Another part of would quite like to see him handed his arse on a plate, preferably by one of the Colombians, just for the comedy value that Michelle Counde will provide on Twitter.


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## Jon Baines (9 Aug 2012)

Chuffy said:


> Great news on the highlights - that'll do me nicely.
> 
> Part of me wants Froome to win - he deserves it after the Tour and last years Vuelta. Another part of would quite like to see him handed his arse on a plate, preferably by one of the Colombians, just for the comedy value that Michelle Counde will provide on Twitter.


I feel the same  This years Tour put me off Froome abit, he always said the right things in pressers but never quite looked like he meant it. Would be funny to see him get dropped and only Uran & Henao to follow, wonder if we'll see some gesticulating from them two


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## The Couch (9 Aug 2012)

My guess would be that Contador wants to show the world that he is the best (whether that is true or not, I don't care).
Froome in top shape shouldn't be far off from the level of Contador, but as said here before, will he still be?
Van Den Broeck must like the fact that there is less than half the time trial kilometers than in de TdF, but ha also has a heavy TdF under the belt.
If Rodriguez will want to make up UCI points to Wiggins, he might go full out for the victory in the all the short steep uphill finishes and take some seconds everytime from the riders who are more fit for long climbs and steady tempo (e.g Van Den Broeck).

What do you guys think of Thomas De Gendt as a potential top 5, he will kick climber's ass in the individual time trial (even as it is short and quite "climby") and the further in the tour, the better he seems to get, so he might also do some damage in the ride to Bola del Mundo.

Is there any rider from the Spanish teams that might surprise in some climb stages?


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## Jon Baines (9 Aug 2012)

Dont think its even a case of Froome being on top form (he probably is) but will he be able to handle the pressure of being a team leader, also its been said that he doesn't know how to pace himself so he'll have to be careful he doesn't go on attacks only to blow up, think thats why Flecha is in there and he'll be able to keep an eye on him and make sure he doesn't do anything silly. Im looking forward to seeing Bert back but he could just as easily bomb, not saying he will of course but everyone seems to think he's already won it.


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## rich p (9 Aug 2012)

The bookies think Bertie is nailed on.
I'm not a huge Froome fan either but at least he's clean () and deserves the chance to win a GT after helping Porte win the T de Algarve and Brad to win the TdF. Cobo should be better prepared than he was when he was in France.


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## smutchin (9 Aug 2012)

Better "prepared"?


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## Smokin Joe (9 Aug 2012)

Jon Baines said:


> I feel the same  This years Tour put me off Froome abit, he always said the right things in pressers but never quite looked like he meant it. Would be funny to see him get dropped and only Uran & Henao to follow, wonder if we'll see some gesticulating from them two


Why should Froome look anything other than a little bit pissed off? For all that a cyclist needs a good team to win a stage race it isn't a team sport. Nobody refers to Bic's TdF win in 1973 and few even remember which team Ocana rode for, it's regarded as his personal victory.

If Froome feels, rightly or wrongly, that he could now be a double GT winner had he not had to ride for Wiggins he is bound to be a bit unhappy. He did his job and did it well, any other year second in the tour would have been sensational and he would have entered the "Who is the best ever Brit" debates. This year he is just that other guy who came second, completely ignored by the mainstream media.

I hope he wins the Vuelta, or at least gives the winner a bloody good run for his money.


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## Chuffy (9 Aug 2012)

Smokin Joe said:


> Why should Froome look anything other than a little bit pissed off? For all that a cyclist needs a good team to win a stage race it isn't a team sport. Nobody refers to Bic's TdF win in 1973 and few even remember which team Ocana rode for, it's regarded as his personal victory.
> 
> If Froome feels, rightly or wrongly, that he could now be a double GT winner had he not had to ride for Wiggins he is bound to be a bit unhappy. He did his job and did it well, any other year second in the tour would have been sensational and he would have entered the "Who is the best ever Brit" debates. This year he is just that other guy who came second, completely ignored by the mainstream media.
> 
> I hope he wins the Vuelta, or at least gives the winner a bloody good run for his money.


Then he should have signed with Garmin when he had the chance. He'd have had a clear run at the Tour.Signing with Sky, knowing full well what the deal was, means he has no right to complain. Like I said, he deserves full team support on the Vuelta and at least A.N Other GT, but looking pissed off and humpy, plus whining to the press during the race doesn't earn him any sympathy.


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## Jon Baines (10 Aug 2012)

Chuffy sums up my opinion on Froome perfectly.


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## rich p (10 Aug 2012)

I suspect there's a bit of plastic Brit in this discussion too or am I reading too much into it?


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## marinyork (10 Aug 2012)

I'm not convinced that froome is pissed off half of the time when he's accused of being so. I think that's just his personality, how he interviews and the pitfalls of being interviewed after doing some nuts day on a mountain.

I am looking forward to the vuelta and glad that ITV4 are doing highlights so those without eurosport or eurosport player can watch it.


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## Noodley (10 Aug 2012)

Go Froomedog!!!!


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## fimm (10 Aug 2012)

Apologies for being a complete ignoramus, but would someone mind explaining
"Flecha ... will probably be road captain" - what is a road captain?
and
"Rodriguez will want to make up UCI points to Wiggins" - I'm guessing "UCI points" are some kind of world ranking?


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## Kiwiavenger (10 Aug 2012)

anyone nkow if LL Sanchez will be riding the vuelta? would love to see his reaction if he keeps getting pipped at the post again by team sky, but would also love for him to succesfuly fend off attacks by them to preserve his sanity! lol.


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## 400bhp (10 Aug 2012)

marinyork said:


> I'm not convinced that froome is pissed off half of the time when he's accused of being so. I think that's just his personality, how he interviews and the pitfalls of being interviewed after doing some nuts day on a mountain.


 
Agree. Too much reading of minds going into it.


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## Chuffy (10 Aug 2012)

rich p said:


> I suspect there's a bit of plastic Brit in this discussion too or am I reading too much into it?


Yes, you are. At least as far as my POV is concerned.

@400bhp - not reading minds, just reading what he's been reported as saying. Also reading what his girlfriend (@michellecounde) was saying on Twitter. No psychic powers required.


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## 400bhp (10 Aug 2012)

I don't do Shitter


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## The Couch (10 Aug 2012)

fimm said:


> Apologies for being a complete ignoramus, but would someone mind explaining
> "Flecha ... will probably be road captain" - what is a road captain?
> and
> "Rodriguez will want to make up UCI points to Wiggins" - I'm guessing "UCI points" are some kind of world ranking?


 

I guess a definition for a road captain could be: the guy everybody in the team should listen to because of the experience (age) that person has e.g. Stuart O'Grady, George Hincapie, Jens Voigt are all men that in the last years were road captains whenever they rode in a team

The UCI ranking is a way of comparing performances to each other. This is the current ranking:
http://www.uci.ch/templates/BUILTIN-NOFRAMES/Template3/layout.asp?MenuId=MjExMw&LangId=1
Whenever you have a chance to be claimed "the best rider of the year", you're not going to let it slip by. (Of course you could argue that "Tour" victories weigh to heavy versus winning the 1-day classics, but that's a whole other discussion)
Before the TdF Rodriguez was in the lead by quite a margin, now he is way behind Wiggins. Still if he could get some stage victories (which would inevitably lead to a pretty good overall ranking) he could make up a lot of points and there are still some 1-day courses that should fit him well: e.g. Classico San Sebastian and the World Championship

@kiwiavenger
LL Sanchez is in great shape this year (even despite bad luck), but I would think that he has already ridden so much this year, he can't also be thinking of riding the Vuelta as well. Still in my opinion he has become an excellent attacker and "time trialist", but no longer a thread for the GC, his endurance of long climbs is just not good enough. (And I personally prefer seeing him in the attack for 1 or 2 stage wins, than hanging on for a possible 10th place in the GC)

Don't know how it was in your country/ies, but actually Froome was quite liked here. Since a lot of people don't follow the Vuelta, he was a new name for a lot of TdF viewers and we always seem to favour the underdog. The reactions he gave to the our press were considered by many as very level-minded (or even just nicely dictated by the all-powerfull engine that Sky was during the TdF). So many people here would have liked Froome to take victory over Wiggo.
Still I personally believe that the fatigue will play a bigger part then the pressure of being the "main guy". It's not like when you're number 2 in the TdF that you have no obligations or pressure during that time. If I am not mistaken, he missed part of the preparation in the beginning of the year. I was expecting that to be an advantage after de Dauphinee, namely that he would only grow stronger the more mountains and kilometers he would ride. Now there will have been a "down-period" of 2-3 weeks already , I would expect that the slight lack of basis/foundation will appear in the (grueling) Vuelta. Especially since I believe that Contador will be very strong (and strong-minded to show that he is one of the best riders around).


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## Flying_Monkey (10 Aug 2012)

Jon Baines said:


> Chuffy sums up my opinion on Froome perfectly.


 
Me too. But there's just a little more. I like his riding style and I think he has done a tremendous job in recent races and fully deserves his chances to win major titles, but he doesn't endear himself to me as a person and - let's put it this way- while I have no reason to think that he's anything but clean, at the same time I also would also not be as shocked if he did fail a test as I would be about many other riders. It's just a feeling which I can't entirely shake, which I will admit may be entirely down to an unreasonable reaction to his public persona.


----------



## Get In The Van (10 Aug 2012)

agree with Chuffy, you sign on the dotted line knowing full well what the season ahead will involve re GT tactics. Sky putting Wiggins as the main contender wasn't suddenly sprung upon Froome 20 mins before the first stage


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## raindog (10 Aug 2012)

400bhp said:


> I don't do Shitter


unfortunately Froome's GF does


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## Smokin Joe (10 Aug 2012)

Get In The Van said:


> agree with Chuffy, you sign on the dotted line knowing full well what the season ahead will involve re GT tactics. Sky putting Wiggins as the main contender wasn't suddenly sprung upon Froome 20 mins before the first stage


Froome knew full well what he was getting into, but you can still understand his being less than thrilled when he thought, "It should have been me", after he felt (rightly or wrongly) that he was the stronger rider.

What's with this "Personality" business anyway? Many of the people on about it would be first to sneer at the celebrity culture of the PR coached rubbish spouted by the likes of Beckham and the plastic reality stars yet as soon as a top sportsman doesn't play the media game you're down on him like a ton of bricks. Froome has genuine class and it shouldn't matter a damn how he comes across in the media.


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## Chuffy (10 Aug 2012)

Smokin Joe said:


> Froome knew full well what he was getting into, but you can still understand his being less than thrilled when he thought, "It should have been me", after he felt (rightly or wrongly) that he was the stronger rider.


A bit like Wendy Houvenaghel moaning that she should have been in the gold medal winning/world record setting pursuit team. She'd have been better of S'ing the F up as well.



> What's with this "Personality" business anyway? Many of the people on about it would be first to sneer at the celebrity culture of the PR coached rubbish spouted by the likes of Beckham and the plastic reality stars yet as soon as a top sportsman doesn't play the media game you're down on him like a ton of bricks. Froome has genuine class and it shouldn't matter a damn how he comes across in the media.


Your straw man needs a hat or he's going to get sunburnt.


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## rich p (10 Aug 2012)

Apart from rubbing shoulders with Riis and Contador, Roche's move is a good one. He'll find his level as a super-domestique and as an occasional team leader in smaller races and maybe the odd stage win in the GTs.


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## iLB (10 Aug 2012)

I'll be watching out for a meteoric rise in performance from one Cobo, and I think we should see a drop off in performance from Froome compared to July. Presumably with a more lengthy ban in prospect if caught, Bertie will be clean.


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## smutchin (10 Aug 2012)

I was very much of the opinion that too much was read into what Froome said to the media during the TdF, but the body language between him and Wiggo after the Olympic TT was pretty unambiguous. I suspect that it was nothing but has become something...

Maybe the constant media speculation has got to both of them a bit - repeat these rumours and innuendoes often enough, they'll become true. 

Froome's girlfriend can't be helping their relationship much. 

d.


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## marinyork (10 Aug 2012)

smutchin said:


> I was very much of the opinion that too much was read into what Froome said to the media during the TdF, but the body language between him and Wiggo after the Olympic TT was pretty unambiguous. I suspect that it was nothing but has become something...
> 
> Maybe the constant media speculation has got to both of them a bit - repeat these rumours and innuendoes often enough, they'll become true.
> 
> ...


 
Well the olympic and froome's girlfriend is perhaps a different matter. It's not like Wiggins and Froome are going to be around each other in this year's vuelta though.


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## smutchin (11 Aug 2012)

Probably for the best!

Maybe if Froome wins the Vuelta, he'll cool down a bit. Or maybe it will just add fuel to the fire... 

d.


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## Slaav (12 Aug 2012)

smutchin said:


> I was very much of the opinion that too much was read into what Froome said to the media during the TdF, but the body language between him and Wiggo after the Olympic TT was pretty unambiguous. I suspect that it was nothing but has become something...
> 
> Maybe the constant media speculation has got to both of them a bit - repeat these rumours and innuendoes often enough, they'll become true.
> 
> ...


 
I wont prfess to know much about anything (generally in life ) but found this quote interesting:

“I’m going to do the best job I can and do whatever’s required of me from the team,” Froome said of the approaching Vuelta. “*Initially I’ll be riding for the GC, but if one of my team-mates shows that they’re in a better place to win the race then I’ll happily work for them*. We’re sending a first-rate squad and it should be a really exciting race.”

Does anyone else raise an eyebrow at this quote? Or is this just simply common sense? Taking this back to the Tour and his position with Wiggins, is he saying that if someone is riding better than him and he is having a mare to the extent that he cannot win, will he ride to support his better placed colleague? Or, for his Mrs benefit , is he saying that if someone is simply stronger and 'better' than him within his own team, then team orders go out the window and he will take a step back and support the chap who is simply having the better ride? Regardless of the position within the overall race?

Made me smile and seems to be able to be read in several different ways?


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## PpPete (13 Aug 2012)

Slaav said:


> I wont prfess to know much about anything (generally in life ) but found this quote interesting:
> 
> “I’m going to do the best job I can and do whatever’s required of me from the team,” Froome said of the approaching Vuelta. “*Initially I’ll be riding for the GC, but if one of my team-mates shows that they’re in a better place to win the race then I’ll happily work for them*. We’re sending a first-rate squad and it should be a really exciting race.”
> 
> ...


 
Rather depends where you found the quote ?
If on Sky team website I might read it differently to if he was talking to a newspaper ?


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## smutchin (13 Aug 2012)

I read that quote in the Guardian. I presume it was from the press conference when they announced the team for the Vuelta, rather than a one-to-one interview.

Seems straight up to me. Froome obviously wants to win and is going into the Vuelta as team leader, which is just reward for the work he's done for Brad and Team Sky this year, but he's had a long, tough season that was built around peaking for the Tour, so even if he's feeling good now, he knows he may not have enough left in the tank to take on Contador when they hit the steeper slopes, so he's probably just trying to temper expectations.

Uran, on the other hand, has had a relatively easy time since the Giro and may prove to be the stronger rider when the going gets tough. But again, the team will be expecting Uran to ride for Froome the way Froome rode for Brad. Just as Froome wasn't allowed off the leash when Brad cracked in last year's Vuelta, Uran may not be allowed off the leash even if Froome cracks. We'll see.

The other thing to consider is that there's just one individual time trial, it's only 40km, quite technical rather than a course designed for pure speed and it comes before most of the really big mountain stages. So even though Froome is by far a stronger time triallist than Contador (or Uran, for that matter), he won't be able to use the same strategy Team Sky used in the TdF - he'll need to stay really close to Contador in the mountains if he wants a chance of overall victory.

d.


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## Flying_Monkey (13 Aug 2012)

I reckon Henao will be chewing up both Uran and Froome in a couple of years anyway.


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## rich p (13 Aug 2012)

Contador was no mean time triallist in the past. Didn't he famously mash Cancellara in one of the GTs a couple of years ago? That performance raised a few eyebrows IIRC, including mine.


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## Flying_Monkey (13 Aug 2012)

rich p said:


> Contador was no mean time triallist in the past. Didn't he famously mash Cancellara in one of the GTs a couple of years ago? That performance raised a few eyebrows IIRC, including mine.


 
Cancellara might still have some beef with Contador over that performance...


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## Chuffy (13 Aug 2012)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Cancellara might still have some beef with Contador over that performance...


2009 Annecy IIRC. Didn't Cancellara complain that Bertie was getting assistance from the camera moto?


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## smutchin (13 Aug 2012)

rich p said:


> Contador was no mean time triallist in the past. Didn't he famously mash Cancellara in one of the GTs a couple of years ago? That performance raised a few eyebrows IIRC, including mine.


 
Yes, I vaguely remember that. IIRC there was a fairly significant lump in the middle of the course. Also, I vaguely recall that wind was a big factor and affected Wiggo and Lance quite badly. I don't recall Contador's performance being considered all that suspicious at the time, but maybe that's me being naive.

d.


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## rich p (13 Aug 2012)

Well, Smutch, it's me being cynical too so perhaps we should meet halfway
One would assume he's clean now and will be *steer*ing well clear of Spanish beef for the Vuelta! Perhaps he'll send his soigneur over to France to get his steak, which would be ironic.


----------



## Chuffy (13 Aug 2012)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Cancellara might still have some beef with Contador over that performance...


Oh dear god. Did I just miss another terrible Bertie/steak refererence?


----------



## lukesdad (13 Aug 2012)

rich p said:


> Contador was no mean time triallist in the past. Didn't he famously mash Cancellara in one of the GTs a couple of years ago? That performance raised a few eyebrows IIRC, including mine.


If memory serves me right, it was rather lumpy, and Fab had been grafting in the mountains for several days previously, not that shocking in the context of the race.


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## rich p (13 Aug 2012)

Chuffy said:


> Oh dear god. Did I just miss another terrible Bertie/steak refererence?


 They're not that rare Chuffy but sometimes hard to spot if they're well done though.


----------



## Flying_Monkey (13 Aug 2012)

Chuffy said:


> Oh dear god. Did I just miss another terrible Bertie/steak refererence?


 
oh yes you did...


----------



## Chuffy (13 Aug 2012)

Please God. Make it stop. 

Rich P - I clicked 'Like' but only in the absence of a 'Track down & kick up the arse' button.


----------



## montage (13 Aug 2012)

last week I spotted Cobo climbing this beast 





evil, evil final climb!


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## raindog (14 Aug 2012)

montage said:


> last week I spotted Cobo climbing this beast


In Hampshire?


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## david k (14 Aug 2012)

Smokin Joe said:


> Why should Froome look anything other than a little bit pissed off? For all that a cyclist needs a good team to win a stage race it isn't a team sport. Nobody refers to Bic's TdF win in 1973 and few even remember which team Ocana rode for, it's regarded as his personal victory.
> 
> If Froome feels, rightly or wrongly, that he could now be a double GT winner had he not had to ride for Wiggins he is bound to be a bit unhappy. He did his job and did it well, any other year second in the tour would have been sensational and he would have entered the "Who is the best ever Brit" debates. This year he is just that other guy who came second, completely ignored by the mainstream media.
> 
> I hope he wins the Vuelta, or at least gives the winner a bloody good run for his money.


i guess we will never really know but what are people thoughts on froom winning the tdf this year if he had been allowed to go on the mountain stages would he have made up over 3 minutes to beat wiggo? could wiggo have gone harder on the mountains? i think so but ddnt need to so why tires himself out unnecessarily?


----------



## The Couch (14 Aug 2012)

raindog said:


> In Hampshire?


Maybe he was playing Cycling Manager on PC or XBOX 

@david k
If Froome hadn't lost time with the puncture to Seraing (I think it was), he might have been enticed to throw team tactics in the wind in the 2 mountain stages he was feeling good. Now he was just too far behind (around 1min30) to be able to justify dropping Wiggo. Still I don't believe he would have taken enough time, my guess would be he would have ended somewhere between half a minute and a minute short.The fact that Wiggo was so good in the time trials, the 2nd best climber and having Froome loosing 1min30 in the first stage was enough to win this year's "lightweight" TdF.
It would have definitely made a more interesting final mountain stage and time trial though (and even press conference) 


Anyone has any idea whether the Spanish teams (Andalucia, Caja Rural, Euskatel) have any riders to watch out for stage victories in the high mountains?

And is it just my idea or will Liquigas have nothing really to ride for? Nibali and Basso aren't in the (preliminary) list for the GC and neither is Sagan for sprint (and short climb) finishes. I would have expected them to at least take Moser as GC rider, but he's not even in the list.


----------



## smutchin (14 Aug 2012)

The Couch said:


> And is it just my idea or will Liquigas have nothing really to ride for? Nibali and Basso aren't in the (preliminary) list for the GC and neither is Sagan for sprint (and short climb) finishes. I would have expected them to at least take Moser as GC rider, but he's not even in the list.


 
Dunno. But never mind the Vuelta, WTF is going on with Liquigas generally? They seem to be losing a lot of experienced and/or promising riders at the end of this season. Moser is a hugely promising rider for the future but I'd have thought Koren would be a better bet for this year. Basso is clearly over the hill anyway, so that seems to leave them without a realistic GC contender. It would make them an obvious destination for Froome, should he decide to leave Sky. It also makes the rumours of a Saxo-Liquigas merger look very plausible.

d.


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## montage (14 Aug 2012)

raindog said:


> In Hampshire?


 
Just had a cheeky little holiday in spain.
He looked like he was hurting a fair bit going up it, luckily I was in the car, but there will be some huge time gaps by the end of that stage for sure!


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## raindog (14 Aug 2012)

montage said:


> Just had a cheeky little holiday in spain.


nice one


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## lukesdad (14 Aug 2012)

montage said:


> Just had a cheeky little holiday in spain.
> He looked like he was hurting a fair bit going up it, luckily I was in the car, but there will be some huge time gaps by the end of that stage for sure!


 
Built for Bertie do you think Monty ?


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## montage (15 Aug 2012)

lukesdad said:


> Built for Bertie do you think Monty ?


 
Not built for mere mortals that is for sure - my friend who lives near the mountain says that car engines have been known to catch alight trying to get up that mountain. It takes a good 45 mins / hour to go up with four wheels - god knows how long they will be climbing on two


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## rich p (15 Aug 2012)

montage said:


> Not built for mere mortals that is for sure - my friend who lives near the mountain says that car engines have been known to catch alight trying to get up that mountain. It takes a good 45 mins / hour to go up with four wheels - god knows how long they will be climbing on two


 I hope you'll be there in your piece of rib-eye outfit Monty, as you promised?


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## Flying_Monkey (16 Aug 2012)

Cyclingnews 'top ten favourites' list is out... I think it's between Contador, Froome, De Gendt and Rodriguez, personally, but Talansky is the dark horse form rider (if there is such a thing). If Cobo manages to be a contender again after his shitty season, I will be very, very suspicious indeed.


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## The Couch (16 Aug 2012)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Cyclingnews 'top ten favourites' list is out... I think it's between Contador, Froome, De Gendt and Rodriguez, personally, but Talansky is the dark horse form rider (if there is such a thing). If Cobo manages to be a contender again after his s***ty season, I will be very, very suspicious indeed.


Not a believer in the Dutch riders (Gesink, Mollema)?
Anton can be the same case as Cobo: nowhere to be seen this year, but might also reappear in the Vuelta


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## Flying_Monkey (16 Aug 2012)

The Couch said:


> Not a believer in the Dutch riders (Gesink, Mollema)?
> Anton can be the same case as Cobo: nowhere to be seen this year, but might also reappear in the Vuelta


 
I like Gesink and he did well in California, but I don't know... maybe not this year.


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## jifdave (17 Aug 2012)

How will sky ride this one? Same tactics a tour?

Race for but fatigued froome vs fresh but not race ready bertie...

My opinion is froome needs to attack early and hope contador doesn't find his legs in the latter stages


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## rich p (18 Aug 2012)

Okay, here we go, the last GT of the year and all in the north so we may be spared the long, straight dull days. Lots of mountain top finishes but it starts with a TTT where a bad team day can potentially scupper ones GC chances.
Who will go well today then?
LeakyGas, Sky, Saxo or my pick, Greenedge?


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## Noodley (18 Aug 2012)

I'm bored of it already.


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## yello (18 Aug 2012)

And I've only just turned my mind towards it!

Looking forward to this evening's TT mainly because it's been many years since I was in Pamplona and I'll be interested to see if I can recognise anything!

Hard to see Sky doing anything different and I reckon other teams will be looking to them. I'll be interested to see how Froome goes, but more interested to see how Contador deals with him. Couldd be a good contest.


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## raindog (18 Aug 2012)

jifdave said:


> Race for but fatigued froome vs fresh but not race ready bertie...


I'm pretty sure Berto's race ready. He just finished fourth in the Eneco without even ruffling his plumage.


----------



## Noodley (18 Aug 2012)

yello said:


> Looking forward to this evening's TT...in Pamplona.


 
Pamplona, you say? I may be interested again, but only if they set a bull off 5 seconds after every team.


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## yello (18 Aug 2012)

that'd certainly be performance enhancing!

I didn't participate in the bull runs myself, watched one though. I think there was more danger of being trampled by panicking,scared sh*tless runners than of actually being gored. Those runners were usually in the bullring a good few minutes before the bulls arrived. The guys that actually ran with and alongside the bulls though, touching them etc, they where pretty cool.


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## jifdave (18 Aug 2012)

A good friends workmate got gored this year

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...Bulls-Brits-moment-mauled-rampaging-bull.html


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## raindog (18 Aug 2012)

Garmin dropped it big time!


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## smutchin (18 Aug 2012)

rich p said:


> starts with a TTT where a bad team day can potentially scupper ones GC chances.



I heard the TTT wasn't counting towards GC. Have I heard wrong?

I reckon Sky's strategy will be more like the Giro than the TdF. 

d.


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## Chuffy (18 Aug 2012)

jifdave said:


> A good friends workmate got gored this year
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...Bulls-Brits-moment-mauled-rampaging-bull.html


Go bull!


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## Chuffy (18 Aug 2012)

smutchin said:


> I heard the TTT wasn't counting towards GC. *Have I heard wrong?*
> 
> I reckon Sky's strategy will be more like the Giro than the TdF.
> 
> d.


Yes. Dodgy mistranslation apparently.


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## Noodley (18 Aug 2012)

Mmmmovistar....mmmmmdodgy...


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## Buddfox (18 Aug 2012)

I assumed they just spent more time prepping the tricky technical second half, where they made up the time?


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## Noodley (18 Aug 2012)

aye, ok...


----------



## Smokin Joe (19 Aug 2012)

This was listed as being shown on ITV4 at eight last night but when I turned on it wasn't. Anybody know why?


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## deptfordmarmoset (19 Aug 2012)

Smokin Joe said:


> This was listed as being shown on ITV4 at eight last night but when I turned on it wasn't. Anybody know why?


It's listed as having gone out at 9pm on the ITV4 site, hereFunny, though, I recorded it, watched and wiped it before I noted the time but I've got the feeling it actually went out earlier.


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## Noodley (19 Aug 2012)

Nope, it went out at 9pm. I know this because I opened a bottle of wine at 2 minutes to 9 and sat and watched the coverage 

Commentary was by McCrossan and Smith, which bodes well.


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## Noodley (19 Aug 2012)

I'm glad I checked ITV schedule, cos tonight's highlights are at 7pm.


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## marinyork (19 Aug 2012)

Noodley said:


> I'm glad I checked ITV schedule, cos tonight's highlights are at 7pm.


 
So am I. The vattenfall cyclassics overan and so the vuelta coverage got ruined. So I didn't see it.


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## yello (19 Aug 2012)

marinyork said:


> The vattenfall cyclassics overan


 
Enjoyable in it's on right I thought. Demare is a name to keep an eye on, a strong finish and he beat some big names (Griepel, Boonen, Renshaw and EBH.)


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## marinyork (19 Aug 2012)

Well I'm pleased FDJ won something.


----------



## Get In The Van (19 Aug 2012)

Any update on the boy that crashed? looked like a sore one, guessing snapped collar bone at least?


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## yello (19 Aug 2012)

I haven't read anything. The medic had his legs raised (the rider's that is!),wasn't sure why. Precaution perhaps, I feared it was something bad, like spinal, but I have no idea in truth.


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## Noodley (19 Aug 2012)

Swifty's attempt to sprint the final 600m must have seemed like a good idea at the time


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## Noodley (19 Aug 2012)

marinyork said:


> Well I'm pleased FDJ won something.


 
Oi! FDJ win all the time!


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## Get In The Van (19 Aug 2012)

yello said:


> I haven't read anything. The medic had his legs raised (the rider's that is!),wasn't sure why. Precaution perhaps, I feared it was something bad, like spinal, but I have no idea in truth.


the medics will have raised his legs incase the rider was in shock, guessing they checked him out before doing this incase he had a spine or back problem and felt that moving him wouldn't cause any more damage to his body


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## rich p (20 Aug 2012)

A decent turn of pace by Degenkolb but a pity Swift just couldn't hang on. The race goes straight into some lumpy bits today which will shake it up a bit and we'll maybe see how the GC contenders are looking.


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## yello (20 Aug 2012)

Noodley said:


> Oi! FDJ win all the time!


 
Long may thay win as the Eurosport bloke seems to call them '_Francis_ der jer'.... and it makes me smile every time I hear it. Who is this Francis chap?!


----------



## lukesdad (20 Aug 2012)

rich p said:


> A decent turn of pace by Degenkolb but a pity Swift just couldn't hang on. The race goes straight into some lumpy bits today which will shake it up a bit and we'll maybe see how the GC contenders are looking.


 
I think their stylists are to be complemented, very smart bunch of boys, mind I think bertie is wearing fake tan.


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## raindog (20 Aug 2012)

rich p said:


> The race goes straight into some lumpy bits today which will shake it up a bit and we'll maybe see how the GC contenders are looking.


indeed - we should get a decent picture of who's got the legs
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/basque-countrys-most-famous-climb-awaits-the-vuelta


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## Biscuit (20 Aug 2012)

Is it me or is the Vuelta official website particularly poor this year? Ideally I need a low key ticker update on the screen, and maybe some audio all via the web. At bit like the Beebs 'mini motty' update gadget for the football if anyone remembers that from yesteryear.
I may have to concede and go the route of Eurosport afterall. :-(


----------



## marinyork (20 Aug 2012)

Biscuit said:


> Is it me or is the Vuelta official website particularly poor this year? Ideally I need a low key ticker update on the screen, and maybe some audio all via the web. At bit like the Beebs 'mini motty' update gadget for the football if anyone remembers that from yesteryear.
> I may have to concede and go the route of Eurosport afterall. :-(


 
Very little eurosport coverage this year on tv at this stage. Not sure how much is on player, colinj seemed to be suggesting that international had gone off it which would mean you might end up as the same coverage as me.


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## yello (20 Aug 2012)

marinyork said:


> Very little eurosport coverage this year on tv at this stage.


 
Really? That'd be a shame. I thought yesterday's limited coverage was because of the Vattenfall. I like watching mountain stages and it'd be a shame not to see them live and in full.


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## marinyork (20 Aug 2012)

yello said:


> Really? That'd be a shame. I thought yesterday's limited coverage was because of the Vattenfall. I like watching mountain stages and it'd be a shame not to see them live and in full.


 
Today's eurosport coverage isn't much different. I have to confess I've not had a look to see how it differs on the now jettisoned (on sky and virgin) eurosport international.

But I'm not trying to imply more than is the case, towards the end, coverage may well increase on both the eurosport bouquet and ITV bouquet of channels. Simply saying don't necessarily rush out and get eurosport player.


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## yello (20 Aug 2012)

Cheers for that marin. No worries, I'll not be buying anything as I only watch on line.


----------



## Chuffy (20 Aug 2012)

Looking forward to todays stage (on ITV4 highlights). As Wellington himself would have said:- *"Hard pounding, gentlemen. Let's see who pounds the longest."*


----------



## iLB (20 Aug 2012)

Gilbert has attacked from the off today I think, anyone know if he is solo or in a group?


----------



## Buddfox (20 Aug 2012)

In a group of 8, he's the main name out there - interesting move, he might fancy this if they stay away but you've got to assume the GC contenders will bring it in. The last climb's not that bad, 7.8% for 5.5km, and then a flat finish. He won't be there at the end, so maybe this group stays away?


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## raindog (20 Aug 2012)

Buddfox said:


> The last climb's not that bad, 7.8% for 5.5km, and then a flat finish.


That's the average - apparently there are some sections at 11%


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## smutchin (20 Aug 2012)

iLB said:


> Gilbert has attacked from the off today I think, anyone know if he is solo or in a group?


 
Group of eight, currently with a lead of about four and a half minutes.

(edit: ie what Buddfox said, which I'd have realised if I read to the end of the thread before replying...)

d.


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## smutchin (20 Aug 2012)

The website really is poor, isn't it. It's a bit like the old TdF website but not as good. And the live info feed doesn't seem to work.

d.


----------



## iLB (20 Aug 2012)

Movistar chasing hard, 2.35 the advantage,


----------



## Nearly there (20 Aug 2012)

Come on Froome


----------



## montage (20 Aug 2012)

was that six attacks from Contador???


----------



## Flying_Monkey (20 Aug 2012)

Purito....


----------



## Flying_Monkey (20 Aug 2012)

No, Valv-piti... shame.


----------



## ColinJ (20 Aug 2012)

marinyork said:


> Very little eurosport coverage this year on tv at this stage. Not sure how much is on player, colinj seemed to be suggesting that international had gone off it which would mean you might end up as the same coverage as me.


Coverage started at 15:00 which was about 50 km to go.

An exciting finish! David Harmon made a big thing of Contador's stinging attacks, but didn't think to mention that he ended up losing time to the other 3 at the finish because of the time bonuses.


----------



## Pedrosanchezo (20 Aug 2012)

Sky plussing the Vuelta on Euro sport HD. Just coming up to yesterdays sprint and "end of programme" appears on the screen!!!
Not amused. Happens all to often on Eurosport as some programmes might run over and they don't adjust.


----------



## Flying_Monkey (20 Aug 2012)

So, is this already a sign of things to come: a four-way fight between Contador, Froome, Rodriguez and Valverde?


----------



## raindog (20 Aug 2012)

Valverde looked bloody strong.


----------



## smutchin (20 Aug 2012)

Flying_Monkey said:


> So, is this already a sign of things to come: a four-way fight between Contador, Froome, Rodriguez and Valverde?


 
Haven't seen it yet but it sounds like Froome was really feeling it in his legs towards the end - will he have the staying power to stick with a fresh Contador?



ColinJ said:


> An exciting finish! David Harmon made a big thing of Contador's stinging attacks, but didn't think to mention that he ended up losing time to the other 3 at the finish because of the time bonuses.


 
Going purely by the fact that Contador has shown his hand so early, I don't imagine he's too worried about the time bonuses.

d.


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## rich p (20 Aug 2012)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> Sky plussing the Vuelta on Euro sport HD. Just coming up to yesterdays sprint and "end of programme" appears on the screen!!!
> Not amused. Happens all to often on Eurosport as some programmes might run over and they don't adjust.


 Just record the following programme like I do. It's live sport and sometimes over-runs.


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## yello (20 Aug 2012)

Cracking stuff wasn't it? Contador certainly showing his intent early, I wonder if he wants to establish a lead early and hang on in case his lack of race fitness shows in the 3rd week?

Agree with raindog, Valverde looked strong. Not sure Froome can hang on with those kind of attacks - he was quickly isolated and fending for himself.


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## rich p (20 Aug 2012)

smutchin said:


> Haven't seen it yet but it sounds like Froome was really feeling it in his legs towards the end - will he have the staying power to stick with a fresh Contador?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Hard to say but Froome managed to cover every Contador attack albeit by sitting in the saddle and grinding away. Bertie looked explosive but he couldn't just sprint away and distance people like he used to in the pre-beef days. It's a bit early to draw conclusions though and Froome is entitled to be suffering fatigue. Some big losers already like Gadret and Menchov though.
Contador went for a 2 second intermediate time bonus on yesterday's stage so I don't think he'd have wanted to finish 4th out of 4, of the leaders.


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## Pedrosanchezo (20 Aug 2012)

rich p said:


> Just record the following programme like I do. It's live sport and sometimes over-runs.


Yeh think i will have to do this and ditch the HD aspect as it takes up to much space. Cheers.


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## Noodley (20 Aug 2012)

Rodriguez made a right arse of that, didn't he? Keep pedalling til you're over the line you nobber!!

Froomedog looked ok to me. He did what he had to. Go Froomedog!!


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## asterix (20 Aug 2012)

Agree that Froome looked ok (in the highlights). Camera missed the bit where he took 3rd from Contador but I bet Contador didn't like it.


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## Chuffy (20 Aug 2012)

Noodley said:


> Rodriguez made a right arse of that, didn't he? Keep pedalling til you're over the line you nobber!!
> 
> Froomedog looked ok to me. He did what he had to. Go Froomedog!!


Not *quite* so sure about Froome. He talked a good game afterwards but I noticed he was checking his bars, presumably his SRM display, before following each attack as if to say 'can I respond to this without blowing?' I bet he's really crap at poker...


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## rich p (20 Aug 2012)

Chuffy said:


> Not *quite* so sure about Froome. He talked a good game afterwards but I noticed he was checking his bars, presumably his SRM display, before following each attack as if to say 'can I respond to this without blowing?' I bet he's really crap at poker...


 He's not one to brag, and not much of a joker but when the TdF was mentioned he looked a bit whistful.


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## Chuffy (20 Aug 2012)

Oh Rich, you're such a card.


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## Flying_Monkey (20 Aug 2012)

Chuffy said:


> Not *quite* so sure about Froome. He talked a good game afterwards but I noticed he was checking his bars, presumably his SRM display, before following each attack as if to say 'can I respond to this without blowing?' I bet he's really crap at poker...


 
I think he said the other day that Stage 4 is where it's going to kick off - and I suspect you're right; he doesn't seem to be one for bluff. Unless of course he's so good at it that we're all fooled.


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## Chuffy (20 Aug 2012)

Flying_Monkey said:


> I think he said the other day that Stage 4 is where it's going to kick off - and I suspect you're right; he doesn't seem to be one for bluff. Unless of course he's so good at it that we're all fooled.


Although, to be fair to the ant-headed space weasel, Bertie wasn't keeping it full gas on those attacks. Perhaps Froome really does read a good race?


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## rich p (20 Aug 2012)

I think if Bertie couold have stayed away on those breaks he would have. I'm not sure he had he stamina to do so though.


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## iLB (20 Aug 2012)

rich p said:


> I think if Bertie couold have stayed away on those breaks he would have. I'm not sure he had he stamina to do so though.


 
He is in training for the third week.


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## iLB (20 Aug 2012)

Also, BONIFICATIONS !!!


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## Flying_Monkey (20 Aug 2012)

iLB said:


> Also, BONIFICATIONS !!!


 
Same to you, mate.


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## Strathlubnaig (20 Aug 2012)

Due to having to work today, god, I had to resort to the ITV4 summary show at 7pm, so I sat on the gym bike offshore here, it was pretty frustrating coverage, with 6 minutes of show followed by 5 minutes of ads, and big chunks of race missed out. Saw the best bit at least, but soooo many commercials argh.....Still, at least I was off the bike by the time that awful cycle show started up.


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## Pedrosanchezo (20 Aug 2012)

Strathlubnaig said:


> Due to having to work today, god, I had to resort to the ITV4 summary show at 7pm, so I sat on the gym bike offshore here, it was pretty frustrating coverage, with 6 minutes of show followed by 5 minutes of ads, and big chunks of race missed out. Saw the best bit at least, but soooo many commercials argh.....Still, at least I was off the bike by the time that awful cycle show started up.


Yeh i just watched that cycle show on itv4. It is about 52 minutes too long.


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## Strathlubnaig (20 Aug 2012)

I caught a bit of it, admittedly, the ginger grin behind the 2 lassies was really off putting.


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## smutchin (20 Aug 2012)

rich p said:


> Hard to say but Froome managed to cover every Contador attack albeit by sitting in the saddle and grinding away. Bertie looked explosive but he couldn't just sprint away and distance people like he used to in the pre-beef days. It's a bit early to draw conclusions though and Froome is entitled to be suffering fatigue. Some big losers already like Gadret and Menchov though.
> Contador went for a 2 second intermediate time bonus on yesterday's stage so I don't think he'd have wanted to finish 4th out of 4, of the leaders.



Having now watched the highlights, I agree with your assessment entirely. I think Froome is looking good and rode cleverly and maturely, and Contador's attacks were clearly aimed at getting rid of him, so he'll be very miffed that Froome nicked 3rd place. 

And as for Rodriguez... you utter wally. 

Valverde is looking dangerous though. 

d.


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## lukesdad (20 Aug 2012)

smutchin said:


> Having now watched the highlights, I agree with your assessment entirely. I think Froome is looking good and rode cleverly and maturely, and Contador's attacks were clearly aimed at getting rid of him, so he'll be very miffed that Froome nicked 3rd place.
> 
> And as for Rodriguez... you utter wally.
> 
> ...


I think they were aimed more at the other 2 TBH.


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## Buddfox (21 Aug 2012)

lukesdad said:


> I think they were aimed more at the other 2 TBH.


 
Yeah, I also got the sense Contador was laying down an early test to Froome as a team leader. Being the team leader for a major GC must offer a considerable array of psychological challenges which Froome won't have faced before. I'm not saying it's easy, but it is easier to ride the TdF as a domestique etc. - no-one's really paying you quite so much attention. With all of Contador's experience, he must feel he has an edge in terms of mind games, and perhaps wanted to see if Froome was going to get phased or play his hand differently. Froome looked to have it all pretty much under control - and actually put one over on Contador in the sprint for the finish. All round a solid day's work - tomorrow will be more challenging.

Interview with Bobby Julich was interesting (on ITV4), really seemed to be talking Froome down. All part of the tactics, no doubt.


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## The Couch (21 Aug 2012)

Flying_Monkey said:


> So, is this already a sign of things to come: a four-way fight between Contador, Froome, Rodriguez and Valverde?


I would not assume that the first mountain finish will dictate the remainder of a grand tour. Some riders are just better suited for the slower, longer climbs, than the upsprint that Contador made it yesterday and some riders take some time to "get going" and aren't at their best in the first climbs.
Think about the Giro (e.g. Tiralongo won on one of the first uphill finishes but disappeared the last week) and the TdF (on Planche des Belles Filles Evans was still great, Taaramae was fifth, Pinot lost 1:30, Van Den Broeck 2 min and Tejay 3 min).

That being said, the winner should indeed be on of those 4, but I wouldn't put any money yet on them also being top 4 at the end of the Vuelta.


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## Cheddar George (21 Aug 2012)

I really enjoyed the highlights last night. I reckon Sean Yates was reading the "Hare and the Tortoise" to Froome as a bedtime book the night before, now matter how fast Contador sprinted off Froome just kept on going and reeled him in, rarely getting his arse out of the saddle.

Rodriguez ..... enough said already.


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## thom (21 Aug 2012)

iLB said:


> Also, BONIFICATIONS !!!


If that was his motivation yesterday he made a right oreja de cerdo of that one in coming 4'th


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## lukesdad (21 Aug 2012)

thom said:


> If that was his motivation yesterday he made a right oreja de cerdo of that one in coming 4'th


 
I don't think it was his motivation, the alternative would have been to follow. Valverde and Rodriguez would have jumped him and probably put a few more seconds into him and Froome would have had an armchair ride, not really Berties style. With the climb being only 4 km at the start of a tour I think the options were limited these sort of climbs are made for Val and Rod, and there are a few to come yet. Thats a few 20sec bonuses!


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## montage (21 Aug 2012)

Martin in the break, 12 minute gap...considering the season he has had so far, it would be nice to see him take the stage. I imagine Sky will be happy for the break to soak up the time bonuses as well


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## Hont (21 Aug 2012)

rich p said:


> Bertie looked explosive but he couldn't just sprint away and distance people like he used to in the pre-beef days.


 
I hope he has come back clean rather than just being a bit light on racing. 14 riders finished within 6 seconds of Valverde yesterday. It would not have been half as interesting if they had just rode up as a bunch of 14 and finished like that. Love him or hate him Contador does animate the race.


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## raindog (21 Aug 2012)

lukesdad said:


> With the climb being only 4 km at the start of a tour I think the options were limited these sort of climbs are made for Val and Rod, and there are a few to come yet. Thats a few 20sec bonuses!


Well, that's what you'd think, but in that case why did he go for an intermediate sprint on monday to pick up a 2 second bonus and later on say "every second counts in the GC" ?


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## rich p (21 Aug 2012)

raindog said:


> Well, that's what you'd think, but in that case why did he go for an intermediate sprint on monday to pick up a 2 second bonus and later on say "every second counts in the GC" ?


 I read or heard that Froome would have won last year without the bonifications acquisition by Cobo, which is why AC is interested in gaining whatever seconds he can.


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## raindog (21 Aug 2012)

rich p said:


> I read or heard that Froome would have won last year without the bonifications acquisition by Cobo, which is why AC is interested in gaining whatever seconds he can.


I know rich, but everyone's saying that he wasn't bothered about losing a few bonus seconds by rolling in fourth behind Froome because he'll make it up on the big climbs. But then why does he think a 2 second bonus is so important. I'm not actually asking the question, I'm just saying that it's got to be one or the other attitude, not both.


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## rich p (21 Aug 2012)

raindog said:


> I know rich, but everyone's saying that he wasn't bothered about losing a few bonus seconds by rolling in fourth behind Froome because he'll make it up on the big climbs. But then why does he think a 2 second bonus is so important. I'm not actually asking the question, I'm just saying that it's got to be one or the other attitude, not both.


 
I know you are RD and I agree. I said as much in post 165.


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## Tomi (21 Aug 2012)

Shame team Sky for not waiting Valverde!


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## smutchin (21 Aug 2012)

raindog said:


> I know rich, but everyone's saying that he wasn't bothered about losing a few bonus seconds by rolling in fourth behind Froome because he'll make it up on the big climbs. But then why does he think a 2 second bonus is so important. I'm not actually asking the question, I'm just saying that it's got to be one or the other attitude, not both.


 
Having missed coverage of the first couple of stages, I didn't know about that intermediate sprint but it does cast a rather different light on the end of yesterday's stage. Hmmm. Interesting.

d.


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## Buddfox (21 Aug 2012)

Tomi said:


> Shame team Sky for not waiting Valverde!


 
Not sure I agree, looked like they'd already upped the tempo before the crash happened, it wasn't a mechanical failure or tacks on the road... you can't neutralise every time someone has a misfortune.


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## raindog (21 Aug 2012)

Even so, the peloton won't forget this, and it might be pay back time one day.


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## Tomi (21 Aug 2012)

Buddfox said:


> Not sure I agree, looked like they'd already upped the tempo before the crash happened, it wasn't a mechanical failure or tacks on the road... you can't neutralise every time someone has a misfortune.


Of course you can't, but there's an unwritten rule that when something like that happens to leader you dont attack.
Well they didn't do anything wrong, but didn't act like gentlemen either, did they?


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## rich p (21 Aug 2012)

Tough titty innit? After all, it's only ValvPiti


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## iLB (21 Aug 2012)

It's racing isn't it, we already know Bert doesn't wait for such issues






I imagine some of them are happy to put the boot into a doper as well.


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## Flying_Monkey (21 Aug 2012)

Regardless of what anyone thinks of Valverde, that's not good racing manners.


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## rich p (21 Aug 2012)

The pace had already been upped so it's just a racing incident IMO and according to the commentators Movistar had done something similar earlier in the season.


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## Tomi (21 Aug 2012)

Maybe Albert has learned something, since Saxo didn't push it.


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## smutchin (21 Aug 2012)

Never mind the rights and wrongs of Sky's attack, what about Roche working for Contador? Oi, Nico, you're not on the Saxo payroll yet!


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## Tomi (21 Aug 2012)

No but his points will go for Saxo's account. Which is of course stupid.


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## Flying_Monkey (21 Aug 2012)

Tomi said:


> No but his points will go for Saxo's account. Which is of course stupid.


 
As Roche himself stated this morning.


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## Flying_Monkey (21 Aug 2012)

Nice finish by Clarke.


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## smutchin (21 Aug 2012)

Who was that clot who celebrated crossing the line like he'd won the stage even though he was in something like 10th place? Brilliant. He's in for a bit of a disappointment.


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## raindog (21 Aug 2012)

Roche looked pretty strong again today - I'm impressed.


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## thom (21 Aug 2012)

Is it just me or are the EuroSport commentators completely failing to discuss who will be in Red now ?
It's like the race organisers don't know because even the graphics haven't shown this!
Here goes the presentation...
Edit : ok its Rodriguez


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## iLB (21 Aug 2012)

Valverde rolls over to the sky bus, says " QUE PASA!?!?!"


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## Cheshire Celt (21 Aug 2012)

I must admit I don't agree with this if you fall every one waits for you , if your running he 10000 meters and you trip and go down they don't wait for you . As far as I'm concerned it's part of the race


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## Flying_Monkey (21 Aug 2012)

Cheshire Celt said:


> I must admit I don't agree with this if you fall every one waits for you , if your running he 10000 meters and you trip and go down they don't wait for you . As far as I'm concerned it's part of the race


 
That's entirely different. This is a stage race. No-one waits for a leader who falls in track or circuit races either.


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## smutchin (21 Aug 2012)

Hmmm... Paris-Nice... Levi Leipheimer... hmmm?

(OK, so Leipheimer wasn't race leader at the time, but even so...)


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## Cheshire Celt (21 Aug 2012)

Stage race or not far as i am concerned its part of the game get up and get on with it


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## Tomi (21 Aug 2012)

It's not a matter of opinion, it's just an unwritten law: If something like this (crash, puncture etc...) happens to gc leader the others (at least gc contenders) ease. Some (most) honor it, some don't.


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## beastie (21 Aug 2012)

You cannot neutralize every downhill just to stop Levi from falling off.


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## smutchin (21 Aug 2012)

Tomi said:


> It's not a matter of opinion, it's just an unwritten law: If something like this (crash, puncture etc...) happens to gc leader the others (at least gc contenders) ease. Some (most) honor it, some don't.


 
There's a lot more to it than that - it depends on the circumstances of the crash and many other factors relating to what else is going on in the race. Remember the 2010 Tour... on one of the early stages, there were loads of crashes and the whole race was neutralised, but the very next day, on the cobblestones, there were loads more crashes affecting some major contenders and yet no one waited for anyone. The differences are subtle and it doesn't help that riders have to make instant decisions.

Today, it was towards the end of the stage and they were trying to close down a breakaway group. Sky had already started upping the pace before the crash happened - in fact, it seemed to be the increase in pace at the front that led riders behind to start jostling for position and that's what caused the crash. That's precisely the kind of trouble that wannabe race leaders stay near the front of the peloton to avoid.

d.


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## Buddfox (21 Aug 2012)

And I believe in that particular Tour incident, didn't Cancellara neutralise the first of the two stages to benefit his team members, but didn't need to the day after...?


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## PpPete (21 Aug 2012)

Tomi said:


> Maybe Albert has learned something, since Saxo didn't push it.


 
He certainly wasn't complaining either.


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## Flying_Monkey (21 Aug 2012)

Well, Valverde apparently thinks that Sky caused the crash in the first place...


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## Tomi (21 Aug 2012)

Yes of course it depends on the circumstances. If a rider falls on decent trying to keep up the pace or on cobbles, it's the same, but a major crash in the peloton... And wannabe leader Valverde was perhaps 15th man in the peloton.
Anyway I didnt mean that one cannot argue this case, I meant that its not a matter of opinion if this waiting the gc leader should happen in general. (Sorry if cant say this clearly, i'm not native english speaker)
In fact you can argue weather SKY should have waited or not. Crash probably happened because of this increase in pace. It's just 
that they could have waited couldn't they? Valverde lost a minute (and probably the jersey)because they didn't.


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## Tomi (21 Aug 2012)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Well, Valverde apparently thinks that Sky caused the crash in the first place...


Well nobody believes that (" crash had been provoked by a Sky rider")...
Neither nobody believes SKY's explanation: "they had not known that Valverde had fallen"


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## yello (21 Aug 2012)

Does anyone else find there's a lack of decent information about the state of play in the race on Eurosport's coverage? And I suppose it's down to the vuelta/Spanish TV coverage rather than Eurosport. 

Several times this afternoon, I was thinking 'so who are we watching now?', 'how far back are they?' Gaps were not being shown, little or no info as to who we were looking at (I'm afraid I only recognise maybe a handful of riders by sight). I had no idea when the lead group of 5 became two, no idea what happened to the other 3 (I thought the peloton had swallowed them up). Then I realised there was a group of 4 up the road when I thought Froome, Contador & Roche were 2nd on the road.... made for quite confusing viewing.


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## oldroadman (21 Aug 2012)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Well, Valverde apparently thinks that Sky caused the crash in the first place...


Well he would, wouldn't he?
By Sky speeding up, then a few things happened, then V fell off. The peloton was riding by then and so quite OK to continue. When the crosswind hit, echelons took care of the rest. That's racing. Just remember that V and Movistar did something similar earlier this season full aware of a crash before they started to ride. What goes around comes around.
It's early in a 3 week race with 10 hilltop/mountain finishes. If V is good enough he'll be up there, if he's not he won't, and that seems to really be the problem, because when the big hitters start going at it in week 3, it finds out who really has it.
Much better benig a domestique, do your stuff, peel off and leave it to the boss....still get paid!


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## raindog (21 Aug 2012)

Tomi said:


> (Sorry if cant say this clearly, i'm not native english speaker)


You're doing pretty good Tomi 
Just for interest, where are you from?

And yes, I agree, that it would've been classy for Sky to ease off the pace a bit, but what's done, is done.


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## yello (21 Aug 2012)

The sports program I watch here in France does a 10 minute summary of the day's events. It opened it's vuelta coverage saying Sky profited from Valverde's fall by attacking - cut to footage of Sky rider looking back as crash occurs then cuts to footage of Team Sky in full flight. Then it went on to the result. I trust other channels will cover it a little more objectively.


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## Tomi (21 Aug 2012)

Thanks Raindog. I'm from Finland.


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## Jon Baines (21 Aug 2012)

Seeing Valverde bitching on twitter has made my day, complaining about Sky causing the crash. Since when did going faster cause crashes? Laughable from him really, especially considering Movistar's past.


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## laurence (21 Aug 2012)

i blame Ney for letting the cavalry charge ahead and not wait for infantry support.

just seen the Movistar team boss ranting on ITV4 and lost all sympathy.


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## Flying_Monkey (21 Aug 2012)

Yeah, I have now lost whatever little temporary sympathy I had for the unrepentant dope-cheat.


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## perplexed (21 Aug 2012)

Movistar moaning about ungentlemanly conduct.

Oh, the irony...


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## CotterPin (21 Aug 2012)

Roger Hammond on the ITV4 highlights programme (which imho isn't as bad as people make it out to be) suggested that these days there is no one person able to make a decision and impose their will on the entire race when these kind of things occur so everyone makes their own decision in a split second, probably based upon what they are seeing others do around them. And I imagine that goes for the guys in the team cars as well.

PS I have not looked at the Vuelta website but there I always seem to think there is a something a little amateurish about the whole event, like that motorbike being in the way of the coverage of the sprint finish the other day.


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## montage (21 Aug 2012)

I only caught the end of the highlights today - how was Froome riding? I read that only he and Roche could follow one of Berties attacks?


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## raindog (21 Aug 2012)

There weren't really any attacks today worthy of the name. In fact, for some reason, Froome and Berto allowed Roche to romp away on his own near the end.


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## lukesdad (21 Aug 2012)

raindog said:


> I know rich, but everyone's saying that he wasn't bothered about losing a few bonus seconds by rolling in fourth behind Froome because he'll make it up on the big climbs. But then why does he think a 2 second bonus is so important. I'm not actually asking the question, I'm just saying that it's got to be one or the other attitude, not both.


 
Nobody is saying that. He played a card, and it was the right card to play.


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## lukesdad (21 Aug 2012)

Moviestar have history, pot kettle....


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## Chuffy (21 Aug 2012)

Not massively fussed either way about the Sky/Valverde polemica, but Froome saying he had no idea and only found out after the stage? That is surely bullshit with a cherry on top.


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## lukesdad (21 Aug 2012)

montage said:


> I only caught the end of the highlights today - how was Froome riding? I read that only he and Roche could follow one of Berties attacks?


Katusha held it at 9secs so bertie and froome called it quits.


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## Crackle (21 Aug 2012)

Chuffy said:


> Not massively fussed either way about the Sky/Valverde polemica, but Froome saying he had no idea and only found out after the stage? That is surely bulls*** with a cherry on top.


Well his technical manager was saying he told them all when he knew and not to go full gas, so someone is trying to cover their bottom.Who cares, it's Valverde.


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## Chuffy (21 Aug 2012)

Crackle said:


> Well his technical manager was saying he told them all when he knew and not to go full gas, so someone is trying to cover their bottom.Who cares, it's Valverde.


Hmmmm. Someone is surely lying. shifty alien antweasel
And yeah, Valverde.


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## raindog (22 Aug 2012)

lukesdad said:


> Nobody is saying that. He played a card, and it was the right card to play.


If going for a 2 second bonus one day "because every second counts" and then the next day rolling across the line several metres behind his main rival because "a few bonus seconds don't matter" is playing the right card, then fair enough.


----------



## dellzeqq (22 Aug 2012)

Chuffy said:


> Not massively fussed either way about the Sky/Valverde polemica, but Froome saying he had no idea and only found out after the stage? That is surely bulls*** with a cherry on top.


absolutely. It's a bit like 'attack, moi?' Why not simply say 'the race heated up, we were on our way, somebody crashes, not our fault, we, and other teams beside, were under no obligation to wait'.


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## thom (22 Aug 2012)

dellzeqq said:


> absolutely. It's a bit like 'attack, moi?' Why not simply say 'the race heated up, we were on our way, somebody crashes, not our fault, we, and other teams beside, were under no obligation to wait'.


 
Given that this contradicts Valverde's take on it, how would that play with the Spanish fans that line the route ?
Froome was getting death threats shouted at him last year for daring to compete with Cobo remember...


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## Flying_Monkey (22 Aug 2012)

Even the Spanish experts disagree with Valverde...


----------



## dellzeqq (22 Aug 2012)

it might not go down well. Movistar's manager was spitting tacks (whoops, wrong word) last night, and the telly coverage showed a car come up beside the Froome/Contador group, and, apparently, someone, possibly Eusebio Unsue was remonstrating with the group. That's not going to do much to calm people down.


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## 400bhp (22 Aug 2012)

Perhaps no-one likes Valverde..

Wasn't just Sky at the front was it.


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## smutchin (22 Aug 2012)

400bhp said:


> Perhaps no-one likes Valverde..


 
Funny that.

I like the way Rodriguez claims he expected the peloton to slow down after the crash but had no option but to follow Contador and Froome. It was a win-win situation for him. I'm glad he's got the red jersey now anyway - a much easier rider to like than Valverde.

d.


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## thom (22 Aug 2012)

Grow some balls


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## Tomi (22 Aug 2012)

thom said:


> Grow some balls


Spot on.


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## rich p (22 Aug 2012)

Today is a bit of an odd one. 8 laps of a flattish course.


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## Flying_Monkey (22 Aug 2012)

rich p said:


> Today is a bit of an odd one. 8 laps of a flattish course.


 
The Vuelta is frequently overly quirky. I think it's one of the things that stops it every really challenging the Tour and the Giro for the top spot in terms of GTs.


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## iLB (22 Aug 2012)

It's a crit, the answer is money.


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## BrumJim (22 Aug 2012)

Any guesses for the combativity award today?


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## rich p (22 Aug 2012)

BrumJim said:


> Any guesses for the combativity award today?


 Chacon a son gout!


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## Flying_Monkey (22 Aug 2012)

rich p said:


> Chacon a son gout!


 
This is, if anything, even worse than your last one.


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## smutchin (22 Aug 2012)

Well, that was exciting.


----------



## rich p (23 Aug 2012)

Medium mountains with a final cat 3 hill that is only 4km but contains ramps of 14%. Maybe a bit more interesting than yesterday's.


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## Tomi (23 Aug 2012)

rich p said:


> Medium mountains with a final cat 3 hill that is only 4km but contains ramps of 14%. Maybe a bit more interesting than yesterday's.


Should suit the man in the red jersey.


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## Crackle (23 Aug 2012)

Tomi said:


> Should suit the man in the red jersey.


He's put his cards on the table and said as much. He'll be looking to put time into his rivals is a quick paraphrase.


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## fimm (23 Aug 2012)

Where would be a good place to find a summary of the day's action? This thread is a bit uninformative if you don't actually know what happened!


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## Asa Post (23 Aug 2012)

fimm said:


> Where would be a good place to find a summary of the day's action? This thread is a bit uninformative if you don't actually know what happened!


I use these:
http://www.steephill.tv/
http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/


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## smutchin (23 Aug 2012)

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest/534350/vuelta-a-espana-2012-coverage-index.html


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## fimm (23 Aug 2012)

Cheers, both.


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## asterix (23 Aug 2012)

smutchin said:


> Well, that was exciting.


 

Must have missed that bit.


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## smutchin (23 Aug 2012)

I notice from the Cycling Weekly link I posted that yesterday's stage wasn't considered interesting enough to merit a report. 

d.


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## thom (23 Aug 2012)

Sprint finish : Degenkolb from Bennati.
Next...
Edit - whoops, commenting on the highlights from yesterday... that was wednesday.


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## Flying_Monkey (23 Aug 2012)

Tactically interesting today. With people like De Gendt in the break, not too many of the other top contenders are likely to want them to get any further away, but there's a game of chicken going on between the top teams over who if anyone is going to be forced to do the work of closing that gap. Valverde and Movistar seem to be trying to force Sky to do it... there's clearly some needle there. Let's just hope that, if Sky do up the pace, he doesn't fall off again...


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## Nearly there (23 Aug 2012)

fimm said:


> Where would be a good place to find a summary of the day's action? This thread is a bit uninformative if you don't actually know what happened!


Twitter is quite good too


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## rich p (23 Aug 2012)

This is hotting up. Lot of pace from Movistar


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## smutchin (23 Aug 2012)

Henao and Uran are quality. So is Froome, for that matter.


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## thom (23 Aug 2012)

Wow, wasn't expecting that. Rodriguez from Froome and putting time into Contador. Impressive from SKY there indeed.


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## smutchin (23 Aug 2012)

Wow.


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## Tomi (23 Aug 2012)

Did Froome give the win away? Not wanting the red jersey?


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## marinyork (23 Aug 2012)

Don't think so! But he did well there, what was that 4 or 5 seconds out of valverde plus the other difference between 2nd and 3rd time bonuses. More time out of Cobo and Contador.

The descent on the penultimate climb was fantastic.


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## Jon Baines (23 Aug 2012)

Brilliant from Froomey there, already seen people saying on twitter Bert wont be to bothered losing time to Froome today. Absolutely baffling when he went for that intermediate sprint the other day and now he wont mind losing 15 odd seconds apparently


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## accountantpete (23 Aug 2012)

I think Rodriguez out-sprinted him and kept the same pace to the line knowing that Froome couldn't match that pace.

That leaves Froome 5secs behind in the Gen Classification.


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## smutchin (23 Aug 2012)

Looked like he couldn't stay with Rodriguez once he kicked. Not surprising really - you'd always back Rodriguez in that situation. Froome seemed more concerned about Contador anyway.


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## smutchin (23 Aug 2012)

accountantpete said:


> That leaves Froome 5secs behind in the Gen Classification.


 
Doesn't Rodriguez get an extra 8 seconds over Froome from time bonuses? (20 seconds for first place, 12 seconds for second, IIRC.)

Edit: Rodriguez now 10 sconds ahead of Froome on GC according to the official website. He was 1 second behind J-Rod, so that's the 8 second difference in bonuses plus a 1 second gap at the finish line.

And Uran now in 4th overall, just 6 seconds behind Contador.


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## Nearly there (23 Aug 2012)

Froome should get time back in the time trial


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## jdtate101 (23 Aug 2012)

Nearly there said:


> Froome should get time back in the time trial


 
What is rodriguez like in TT, don't know his form in that area?


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## Nearly there (23 Aug 2012)

jdtate101 said:


> What is rodriguez like in TT, don't know his form in that area?


I think Froome will be one of the favourites for the time trial i dont think its rodriguez strong point


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## Flying_Monkey (23 Aug 2012)

Nearly there said:


> I think Froome will be one of the favourites for the time trial i dont think its rodriguez strong point


 
Rodriguez used to TT like a whale. He is now a bit better, but is more likely to be minutes rather than seconds behind Froome. Today's stage was really made for Purito too - he loves those short, steep finishes. He is not quite so brilliant on the longer grinds where Contador, Froome, Uran and Gesink will all do slightly better, I think.


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## beastie (23 Aug 2012)

I like these stages, there is genuine racing but the gc is still very close . However this race will be decided by who is strongest in the last week.


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## marinyork (23 Aug 2012)

jdtate101 said:


> What is rodriguez like in TT, don't know his form in that area?


 
One comparison this year is the stage 21 of the giro d'italia where of course Rodriguez lost the general classification to Hesjedal. 28km TT round Milan

The timings were
Pinotti
Geraint Thomas + 39s
...
6th Ryder Hesjedal + 1m9
7th Larsson 1min14
11th Stannard 1min 24
16th Taylor Phinney 1min 31
26th Rodriguez 1min56

by means of crap comparison (different courses, very different riders and at the end of a grand tour), the olympic TT a few weeks ago Froome finished 3rd
Taylor Phinney was 50 seconds behind him
Pinotti was about +1min1
Larson was 1min 47 behind froome.

Hesjedal of course did the TT but did a very slow one so I've not included his time. Also worth noting Phinney had a bit of a good 'un in the olympics. Larsson/Pinotti may be the best reference marks to the other riders we're concerned with here.

I'm sure someone else can come up with a better one.

P.S. if you do want another one both Westra and Menchov both rode the Olympics and the earlier TT in the TDF stage 9. As did Brajkovic for that matter.


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## rich p (23 Aug 2012)

Good research Marinho but essentially flawed
FWIW, the ITT in this Vuelta is 40km and includes a cat 3 climb. That may help J Rod to some extent against some others but not Froome.


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## Jon Baines (23 Aug 2012)

Bert was dehydrated today and suffering from cramps, maybe a lack of conditioning after not racing for 6 months?


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## Tomi (23 Aug 2012)

Tomi said:


> Did Froome give the win away? Not wanting the red jersey?


Yep, dont think nobody can match purito in this kind of finish, but still it almost looked like Froome made way for Rodrigues. I reckon he was happy with second and didn't even dream of winning.


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## Jon Baines (23 Aug 2012)

Dont think Froome gave it away but he did what he did today to put time into Contador dont think hes to worried about Purito in the long run.


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## smutchin (23 Aug 2012)

rich p said:


> Good research Marinho but essentially flawed
> FWIW, the ITT in this Vuelta is 40km and includes a cat 3 climb. That may help J Rod to some extent against some others but not Froome.


 
Yup, it will favour Contador over J-Rod for one.

I think it may have been mentioned upthread already, but in case anyone needs reminding, look at the results of the time trial round Lake Annecy in the 2009 Tour de France, which was over similar terrain and distance to this year's Vuelta TT...

d.


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## marinyork (23 Aug 2012)

rich p said:


> Good research Marinho but essentially flawed
> FWIW, the ITT in this Vuelta is 40km and includes a cat 3 climb. That may help J Rod to some extent against some others but not Froome.


 
Too far back to find a hilly TT (2009 is too far back).

I think Rodriguez will be supremely motivated after the TT in the vuelta, coming 2nd in the GC, the course and so on. Then there's that Froome bloke, he'll be motivated for almost the same reasons.


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## thom (23 Aug 2012)

Tomi said:


> Yep, dont think nobody can match purito in this kind of finish, but still it almost looked like Froome made way for Rodrigues. I reckon he was happy with second and didn't even dream of winning.


Yes - he left a big inside gap on one of the last corners, possibly to pick a lesser gradient but it appeared he wanted to be paced from then on.
Time bonuses playing a part too.
Froome could hardly be better placed after 6 days and with both Henao and Uran Uran giving excellent support, I suspect this will be beyond Contador if Froome stays on his bike. Froome just looked really good.


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## smutchin (23 Aug 2012)

smutchin said:


> Doesn't Rodriguez get an extra 8 seconds over Froome from time bonuses? (20 seconds for first place, 12 seconds for second, IIRC.)
> 
> Edit: Rodriguez now 10 sconds ahead of Froome on GC according to the official website. He was 1 second behind J-Rod, so that's the 8 second difference in bonuses plus a 1 second gap at the finish line.



I've been misinformed - turns out the bonuses (or bonifications, if you prefer) are 12, 8 and 4 seconds, so that's a 4 second difference in bonuses and a 5 second time gap at the finish line. 

Sorry. Must stop pretending I know what I'm talking about. 

d.


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## smutchin (23 Aug 2012)

marinyork said:


> Too far back to find a hilly TT (2009 is too far back).
> 
> I think Rodriguez will be supremely motivated after the TT in the vuelta, coming 2nd in the GC, the course and so on. Then there's that Froome bloke, he'll be motivated for almost the same reasons.



You may well be right about Rodriguez but I don't think Contador's performance in the 2009 TdF TT can be entirely discounted as an indicator. Obviously a lot of water under a lot of bridges since then, but I imagine Contador is still a decent time-triallist, and the course clearly suits him. 

(caveat: see previous post re me knowing what I'm talking about.)

d.


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## thom (24 Aug 2012)

Degenkolb again. Interesting finish on a racing circuit. Perhaps a few seconds gap will give Froome more time.
Looks like Uran lost time - dunno yet where Contador, Rodders or Valverde were
edit the "Big Favourites" all seem to be 2 secs back so no change apart from Uran.


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## thom (24 Aug 2012)

So Uran punctured after the crash, so was adrift as the team car was stuck in the rear.
The finish really was quite odd on the race circuit. Nice smooth corners and undulations, very exposed, gaps opening up.
But a complete absence of spectators. Rather like this thread. Is something else going on today ?


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## rich p (24 Aug 2012)

It was just too dull Thom!!
It even lacked the scenery of the TdF and the finish reminded me of the moon or the finish in a quarry a few years ago in S France. No atmosphere. Good, hard sprint by Degenkolb though. Is he getting better or is the sprint field just too thin to judge?


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## smutchin (24 Aug 2012)

thom said:


> Rather like this thread. Is something else going on today ?



Hellish day at work and haven't had a moment to check on the racing. Hoping to watch the highlights when I eventually get home, if I'm not too tired...

Sounds like a pretty dull stage though. Tomorrow's should be more interesting. 

d.


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## Chuffy (24 Aug 2012)

thom said:


> So Uran punctured after the crash, so was adrift as the team car was stuck in the rear.
> The finish really was quite odd on the race circuit. Nice smooth corners and undulations, very exposed, gaps opening up.
> But a complete absence of spectators. Rather like this thread. Is something else going on today ?


I missed the highlights today (and the last two days) and it does sound a bit deathly dull. Mountains tomorrow!


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## thom (24 Aug 2012)

rich p said:


> It was just too dull Thom!!
> It even lacked the scenery of the TdF and the finish reminded me of the moon or the finish in a quarry a few years ago in S France. No atmosphere. Good, hard sprint by Degenkolb though. Is he getting better or is the sprint field just too thin to judge?


I think it's very thin but he deserves credit for what he gets.
It's noticeable though that Swifty-Ben is consistently fluffing his lines in these finishes. Froome left him well placed but he was swamped by a whole pile of guys with better acceleration, sat up and finished 10'th.

A couple of stages this week have been rather underwhelming, (the other being the circuit stage). I wonder how much of this is due to financial constraints spilling over from Spain's problems. Wasn't Geox Cobo's sponsor last year ? I wonder why they don't want to invest in cycling at the minute.


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## rich p (25 Aug 2012)

thom said:


> I think it's very thin but he deserves credit for what he gets.
> It's noticeable though that Swifty-Ben is consistently fluffing his lines in these finishes. Froome left him well placed but he was swamped by a whole pile of guys with better acceleration, sat up and finished 10'th.
> 
> A couple of stages this week have been rather underwhelming, (the other being the circuit stage). I wonder how much of this is due to financial constraints spilling over from Spain's problems. Wasn't Geox Cobo's sponsor last year ? I wonder why they don't want to invest in cycling at the minute.


You may be right re the money side of it. It's slightly odd that there is no stage south of Madrid either. Quite a few second tier races in Spain have either failed to find or really struggled for sponsors this year.


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## lukesdad (25 Aug 2012)

The excuse was the cost logistics of transfers, made going south of Madrid prohibitive.


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## Jon Baines (25 Aug 2012)

It'd be nice to see it go south of Madrid but the money just isnt there for them to go all over the country like the Tour, it sucks but at the same time it gives us a race like this year so not all bad


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## thom (25 Aug 2012)

rich p said:


> You may be right re the money side of it. It's slightly odd that there is no stage south of Madrid either. Quite a few second tier races in Spain have either failed to find or really struggled for sponsors this year.


 
Yes, there's many a story of races in financial trouble, even the San Sebastian classic. Along with the crisis in Spain, I think it is a legacy of the drug controversies of the past. Hopefully by dealing with the past, cycling will show it is not afraid to clean itself up and give races like the Vuelta a brighter future.


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## Flying_Monkey (25 Aug 2012)

Well, well, well... a really excellent finish today. And Froome was a bit exposed. Great attack at the end by Contador, and even better counter-attack by Valverde and Rodriguez. Froome didn't have anything left, and tactically he really messed up today. Say what you like about his climbing ability compared to Wiggins, but he does not seem to have the tactical head that Wiggins does. He tried to out-Contador Contador today, and even not fully race-fit, Alberto showed up his presumption.


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## raindog (25 Aug 2012)

Froome blew up big time.

What a climb that was - horrible. 15% ramps


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## rich p (25 Aug 2012)

Yep, good finish by all 3 but Froome looking isolated


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## Nearly there (25 Aug 2012)

rich p said:


> Yep, good finish by all 3 but Froome looking isolated


Agreed,I think the time trials are key to where Froome will have to claw the seconds back as I can't see him doing it on the hills.


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## jdtate101 (25 Aug 2012)

Sky used up their men too soon on this climb, about 2km too early by my thinking, leaving Froome exposed.


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## Jon Baines (25 Aug 2012)

Everyone has bad days though, might just be Froomes bad day today. We saw Contador have a bad day, only so much the 3 Spaniards can work together aswel. Purito and Valverde will probably work together after the TT to try put time into Bert & Froome.


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## thom (25 Aug 2012)

I only saw the last km highlight - the story seemed to be about how to judge the final effort and spanish km seem rather long... There are two more finishes which are comparable in terms of last 5km steepness, being the final Monday and Saturday. 
I guess it's unlikely to see a GC change until the Wed TT, which should give a clear indication of how Froome will match up against Contador.
This is shaping up to be an interesting contest - all the protagonists seem to have shown a weakness.


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## smutchin (25 Aug 2012)

Very canny riding by Contador. Forced Froome to do all the work - almost trackstanding when they caught Meyer rather than go ahead of Froome. Froome didn't really have a bad day, he just put in too much effort on the early part of the climb while his rivals followed his wheel. Only 14 seconds lost - could have been a lot worse.

I suspect part of the reason Sky burnt out their support men early was Uran being tired after his efforts yesterday. 

Cracking race. 

d.


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## rich p (25 Aug 2012)

I think Froome may regret that abortive attack for which he paid the price at the end.


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## Noodley (25 Aug 2012)

Froomedog! Froomedog! Froomedog! Froomedog! C'mon join in! Froomedog! Froomedog! Froomedog!


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## marinyork (25 Aug 2012)

I know Froome obviously had Valverde and Rodriguez ride away from him, but it seemed to me rewinding the footage of the last few corners that Contador and Froome seemed to struggle on the same bit coming into the finish (obviously with a time gap as contador had rode away). I just thought this was interesting.

Also probably not how other people see it because it looks scary - an unfit Contador attacking at the end of the stage and getting a psychological advantage even if he struggled on a bit shortly before the line.


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## rich p (25 Aug 2012)

Has Froome gf tweeted yet?


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## Noodley (25 Aug 2012)

rich p said:


> Has Froome gf tweeted yet?


 
I posted above


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## marinyork (25 Aug 2012)

rich p said:


> Has Froome gf tweeted yet?


 
No that's so TDF, but Froome's pet hamster and dog have both tweeted about it. The pet hamster is to be sent on a reconnaissance mission to chew tyres. The dog is going to go and pay a visit to saxobank and run off with any large steaks it sees. Also it will run across the road at a carefully timed place and then cross back over the road a second time.


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## Crackle (25 Aug 2012)

marinyork said:


> I know Froome obviously had Valverde and Rodriguez ride away from him, but it seemed to me rewinding the footage of the last few corners that Contador and Froome seemed to struggle on the same bit coming into the finish (obviously with a time gap as contador had rode away). I just thought this was interesting.


 
I'm expecting some power analysis from you next, Marin.


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## Monsieur Remings (25 Aug 2012)

Great show today and I wonder whether Sky were doing the right thing by setting the pace? Around halfway up the last climb it seemed to be working as rider after rider peeled away but the other three lads - Valverde, Rodriguez and Berty - realised they could draft Chris all the way up to the top! And then wait for the last few hundred metres. As Barry Norman would say...'and why not?'

I was seething at Contador, not helping out when a small gap appeared possible on Rodriguez, but that's the professional, experienced rider for you and Berty did his job well today. Perhaps a lesson in tactics for some of the Sky lads?

I'd like to see less of Sky on the front and let Katusha and Saxobank force the issue. Froome's gap is nothing in the grand scheme of things but I agree with others that too much energy was used today dragging the other GC contenders up to the top of the climb for no overall gain.


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## perplexed (26 Aug 2012)

Yep. Can't understand why Sky insist on dragging everyone else up the hill. I don't know why they don't let the other teams do some graft, then use their numbers in chasing anyone who tries to get away. The onus is on Katusha in particular to try and get away from Froome for the TT, not the other way round.


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## lukesdad (26 Aug 2012)

perplexed said:


> Yep. Can't understand why Sky insist on dragging everyone else up the hill. I don't know why they don't let the other teams do some graft, then use their numbers in chasing anyone who tries to get away. The onus is on Katusha in particular to try and get away from Froome for the TT, not the other way round.


 
The reason they do this is to stop the pace being too slow. Youve seen how the 3 Spaniards can attack off a high pace. So you can imagine what they'd do off a slow one. Froome would be toast.


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## lukesdad (26 Aug 2012)

marinyork said:


> I know Froome obviously had Valverde and Rodriguez ride away from him, but it seemed to me rewinding the footage of the last few corners that Contador and Froome seemed to struggle on the same bit coming into the finish (obviously with a time gap as contador had rode away). I just thought this was interesting.
> 
> Also probably not how other people see it because it looks scary - an unfit Contador attacking at the end of the stage and getting a psychological advantage even if he struggled on a bit shortly before the line.


On the last corner bertie was on the steep line on the inside, as Rodrigeuz said in his pre race interview he knew the finnish well I think he used that knowledge well. Only problem was he took Valverde with him.


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## Jon Baines (26 Aug 2012)

lukesdad said:


> The reason they do this is to stop the pace being too slow. Youve seen how the 3 Spaniards can attack off a high pace. So you can imagine what they'd do off a slow one. Froome would be toast.


 
This. If Sky hadn't set the pace Froome would have been getting attacked much earlier on the climb and would have lost a ton of time no doubt, Sky used up their men early because once you get to the final few km having a whole team setting the pace is largely useless given how steep the finish was.


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## smutchin (26 Aug 2012)

The same tactic worked in the TdF to completely nullify the opposition. It didn't work quite so well yesterday partly because it was such a difficult climb, and the constant variations in gradient would have made it hard to set a steady pace. 

Wasn't a complete failure though - only the very strongest riders were left to contest the finish. The likes of Gesink, Mollema, Talansky and Igor Anton were blown away. 

d.


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## raindog (26 Aug 2012)

Gilbert at last!
And superb canny riding from Rodriguez - rare to see that kind of thing these days from a GT leader. Suddenly I want him to get this.


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## Tomi (26 Aug 2012)

Exciting finish and nice to see Gilbert back on the podium! He did purito a great favor too. Are Froome and Albert consentrating too much on each other?


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## smutchin (26 Aug 2012)

Great move by Rodriguez. And who better could you want to go with you on a move like that than Gilbert? He's still got it! Very pleased for both of them. 

Good sign for Gilbert with the World Championships coming up...

d.


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## thom (26 Aug 2012)

Nice to see Gilbert getting some form again.


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## Flying_Monkey (26 Aug 2012)

Froome lost a few more seconds to Valverde too.


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## Monsieur Remings (26 Aug 2012)

lukesdad said:


> The reason they do this is to stop the pace being too slow. Youve seen how the 3 Spaniards can attack off a high pace. So you can imagine what they'd do off a slow one. Froome would be toast.


 
Fair enough mate, good points.

But, and I'm not stating but posing the question, wouldn't Froome have had a bit more left than being left for 'toast' had he not 'shown his hand' so early on? I think the points about keeping the pace high are good ones by the way...


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## rich p (26 Aug 2012)

At this rate JRod may garner enough enpough seconds to mullifythe 40km TT


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## lukesdad (26 Aug 2012)

Monsieur Remings said:


> Fair enough mate, good points.
> 
> But, and I'm not stating but posing the question, wouldn't Froome have had a bit more left than being left for 'toast' had he not 'shown his hand' so early on? I think the points about keeping the pace high are good ones by the way...


 
By keeping a relatively High pace (and I dont want to get too technical here) Froome may be able to stay out of the red zone for longer, A vicous attack from one of his adversaries could well put him straight into it, he could loose minutes in just a few Kms. Sky know exactly what he is capbale of and ride accordingly.


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## lukesdad (26 Aug 2012)

smutchin said:


> The same tactic worked in the TdF to completely nullify the opposition. It didn't work quite so well yesterday partly because it was such a difficult climb, and the constant variations in gradient would have made it hard to set a steady pace.
> 
> Wasn't a complete failure though - only the very strongest riders were left to contest the finish. The likes of Gesink, Mollema, Talansky and Igor Anton were blown away.
> 
> d.


Quite so and mainly here because the opposition is a whole different kettle of fish, these 3 are not followers.


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## lukesdad (27 Aug 2012)

The Chasers looked a bit ragged, they weren't expecting that !


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## marinyork (27 Aug 2012)

lukesdad said:


> On the last corner bertie was on the steep line on the inside, as Rodrigeuz said in his pre race interview he knew the finnish well I think he used that knowledge well. Only problem was he took Valverde with him.


 
I'm sure pretty much anyone could see that. I did specifically not say just that corner you're reading things into my post that weren't there - the wording was deliberate. If you rewind the footage irrespective of line well before that you'll see what I was talking about. You might disagree because you have to take your own timings.


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## lukesdad (27 Aug 2012)

Ah I see !


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## Budgie69 (27 Aug 2012)

Roger Hammond highlighted what I think was a crucial mistake by Froome on Saturday's tage to Andorra that possibly led to him losing time to all 3 main rivals that he otherwise might not have done. When Froome attacked 1st time and Contador went with him leaving Purito and Val Verde behind he sat up after a relatively short distance seemingly because Contador was refusing to work with him. Froome needed to carry on riding at that point and accept that Contador might beat him at the top but they would most likely have both taken time out of the other 2.

A lot has been made of the superior climbing ability of Froome over Wiggins but it seems to me that he lacks the tactical savvy of Wiggins and that may well be where he falls short in winning his 1st Grand tour.

That said, on the previous unphill finish Froome dropped Contador and Valverde so it might be that this was just a one off.

All the uphill finishes so far have been relatively short and steep which definitely suit the 3 Spaniards over Froome. Will be interesting to see how things develop when we get the longer climbs that allow Sky to just pile on the constant pressure for km after km. I recall last year Rodriguez being highly fancied in the early part of last years Vuelta but when the long climbs came he was distanced by the constant pace of Froome & Wiggins. Purito might have better form this year to prevent that happening of course....


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## Flying_Monkey (27 Aug 2012)

Budgie69 said:


> A lot has been made of the superior climbing ability of Froome over Wiggins but it seems to me that he lacks the tactical savvy of Wiggins and that may well be where he falls short in winning his 1st Grand tour.


 
As I already argued, above...


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## rich p (27 Aug 2012)

Froome is also entitled to be weary after his efforts in the last couple of months. It may be a factor or become a factor.


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## thom (27 Aug 2012)

rich p said:


> Froome is also entitled to be weary after his efforts in the last couple of months. It may be a factor or become a factor.


Agreed. For me Froome can be excused for doing pretty much whatever he wants ! An extraordinary season so far.
It's his first full 3 week tour as leader, he's in second place and he's learning a bit about making his own racing decisions. Cool ;-)
I like his personality and my fingers are crossed that he can do a bit in the coming stages. There are a couple, the last Monday and Saturday where I can imagine him being under pressure relative to the other "Big Favourites" at the end but for the rest of it I'm hopeful he can do pretty well.


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## smutchin (27 Aug 2012)

rich p said:


> Froome is also entitled to be weary after his efforts in the last couple of months. It may be a factor or become a factor.



I've been saying as much since it was announced that he would be team leader. Not that I have any great insight - it was pretty obvious. 

Plus it probably wasn't part of Sky's original 2012 plan for Froome to be their man for this race - surely they would never have pushed him so hard in the TdF if they were planning on him being a GC contender at the Vuelta? Entering Froome for the Vuelta appears to have been a late decision to keep him happy and stop him wanting to leave. 

d.


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## marinyork (28 Aug 2012)

smutchin said:


> I've been saying as much since it was announced that he would be team leader. Not that I have any great insight - it was pretty obvious.
> 
> Plus it probably wasn't part of Sky's original 2012 plan for Froome to be their man for this race - surely they would never have pushed him so hard in the TdF if they were planning on him being a GC contender at the Vuelta? Entering Froome for the Vuelta appears to have been a late decision to keep him happy and stop him wanting to leave.


 
Maybe not their plan, but why not give adapt accordingly? Everyone's been babbling on about the TDF and olympics since last year and earlier in some cases. There is and was always still going to be a vuelta and worlds anyway. After already performing outstandingly in those he's had an incredible season. 2nd in the tour de france, a stage win. 4th in the dauphine. Olympic bronze. Worth a punt. Surely whatever happens he'll learn from the experience.


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## PpPete (28 Aug 2012)

WTF?
No coverage on ES Player
Did they decide to have an extra rest day ?


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## marinyork (28 Aug 2012)

PpPete said:


> WTF?
> No coverage on ES Player
> Did they decide to have an extra rest day ?


 
Starts on British Eurosport 2 at 3pm.

Think it might be like that later in the week too. The US Tennis Open out trumps coverage for brits of cycling unfortunately.


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## PpPete (28 Aug 2012)

marinyork said:


> Starts on British Eurosport 2 at 3pm.
> Think it might be like that later in the week too. The US Tennis Open out trumps coverage for brits of cycling unfortunately.


 
The schedule on the "player" home page is different to the one on the main website....


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## marinyork (28 Aug 2012)

PpPete said:


> The schedule on the "player" home page is different to the one on the main website....


 
I can't see the full schedule for the player. 

The launching of British Eurosport HD1 and 2 hasn't necessarily been that good for us with the loss of the third channel.


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## thom (28 Aug 2012)

Degenkolb again. Cobo lost time towards the end - not nearly as strong as last year.


----------



## raindog (28 Aug 2012)

thom said:


> Cobo lost time towards the end - not nearly as strong as last year.


that's an understatement 
He was off the back of the bunch that was off the back. If I didn't know better, I'd be suspicious of last year's perf.


----------



## Flying_Monkey (28 Aug 2012)

raindog said:


> that's an understatement
> He was off the back of the bunch that was off the back. If I didn't know better, I'd be suspicious of last year's perf.


 
You cynical, cynical man.


----------



## Tomi (28 Aug 2012)

Long sprint from Degenkolb, but Bouhanni didnt have a chance even though he came from behind. Cav and Greipel have a serious challenger in this young German.


----------



## thom (28 Aug 2012)

What do I know about sprinting but again Ben Swift looked to be sprinting in a much higher gear than the others.


----------



## rich p (28 Aug 2012)

So, will Froome be in a fit enough state to take some serious time in the TT out of JRod, Valv.Piti and even Contador? Will it be enough to cover his potential losses in the big hills to come?
Or has he just had a bad day and will be up to the big mountain challenges anyway?
Will JRod have the stamina to stay with the cabaza de peloton anyway when it gets long and steep?
or will Valverde for that matter?
This is really panning out to be a good race innit?


----------



## smutchin (28 Aug 2012)

thom said:


> What do I know about sprinting but again Ben Swift looked to be sprinting in a much higher gear than the others.



Just watching the highlights, I had exactly the same thought - very strange!

Degenkolb looks impressively strong and I don't want to take anything away from him but I do wonder if he's being made to look better than he is by his rivals. Bouhanni, Bennati, Swift, Davis... none of them look like premier league sprinters. Would he really give Cav or Greipel a race?

d.


----------



## beastie (28 Aug 2012)

rich p said:


> So, will Froome be in a fit enough state to take some serious time in the TT out of JRod, Valv.Piti and even Contador? Will it be enough to cover his potential losses in the big hills to come?
> Or has he just had a bad day and will be up to the big mountain challenges anyway?
> Will JRod have the stamina to stay with the cabaza de peloton anyway when it gets long and steep?
> or will Valverde for that matter?
> This is really panning out to be a good race innit?



Yes. The winner could be anyone of the four.Froome looked knackered on Sunday though, he NEEDED that rest day. Hope he can do it, if not then Purito. It appears they are all pretty evenly matched. Froome will also need support from Porte, Henao and Uran. I thought the three of them should be taking it easier than they did today.


----------



## rich p (29 Aug 2012)

beastie said:


> Yes. The winner could be anyone of the four.Froome looked knackered on Sunday though, he NEEDED that rest day. Hope he can do it, if not then Purito. It appears they are all pretty evenly matched. Froome will also need support from Porte, Henao and Uran. I thought the three of them should be taking it easier than they did today.


 Porte is not quite the support that he was in the TdF and it looks to me like Uran and Henao are not quite sure of their role.


----------



## beastie (29 Aug 2012)

Porte is looking tired also. Henao an Uran are also both far enough back on GC to take a day off in the time trial. If Froome can take time out off his rivals then he can try and defend. I don't see him taking time in the mountains after the weekend.


----------



## Strathlubnaig (29 Aug 2012)

thom said:


> What do I know about sprinting but again Ben Swift looked to be sprinting in a much higher gear than the others.


Maybe he's just shi** at sprinting, or maybe because he was good last year and can't win this year he's a doper. No, wait, can't be that, he's british.


----------



## raindog (29 Aug 2012)

Porte blew his legs off in the Tour, and imo Froome looks very awkward and uncomfortable as team leader. Berto doesn't seem to be quite himself yet (because he's now squeaky clean?) although we haven't reached the long climbs yet where he could yet win a stage.
Anyway, I'm not bothered about those two, I want Rodriguez to win, but I doubt he will as he'll lose time in the TT, although it's not completely flat so might suit him.
Valverde looks very strong, but I don't like mentioning his name too much.


----------



## raindog (29 Aug 2012)

Strathlubnaig said:


> Maybe he's just shi** at sprinting, or maybe because he was good last year and can't win this year he's a doper. No, wait, can't be that, he's british.


er


----------



## rich p (29 Aug 2012)

Strathlubnaig said:


> Maybe he's just shi** at sprinting, or maybe because he was good last year and can't win this year he's a doper. No, wait, can't be that, he's british.


 WTF? Is that humour or trolling?


----------



## smutchin (29 Aug 2012)

rich p said:


> WTF? Is that humour or trolling?



Maybe best not take it too seriously. 

d.


----------



## rich p (29 Aug 2012)

smutchin said:


> Maybe best not take it too seriously.
> 
> d.


 Wise words!


----------



## beastie (29 Aug 2012)

I really like the hilltop finishes from the first week. If le tour had a few of these at the end of the medium mountain stages it would have maybe led to more attacking of Wiggins. Or Sky would have done just the same......


----------



## thom (29 Aug 2012)

beastie said:


> I really like the hilltop finishes from the first week. If le tour had a few of these at the end of the medium mountain stages it would have maybe led to more attacking of Wiggins. Or Sky would have done just the same......


Planche des Belles Filles maybe comes closest and that was a good finish.
Part of the attacking intent here is due to the time bonuses. I kind of like the fact the TdF doesn't have them to be honest.


----------



## Strathlubnaig (29 Aug 2012)

rich p said:


> WTF? Is that humour or trolling?


Obviously alluding to the general trend on this forum that (a) british riders dont dope and (b) any foreigner who had good form in the past and is not at their best now must have been on drugs.


----------



## Slaav (29 Aug 2012)

I


Strathlubnaig said:


> Obviously alluding to the general trend on this forum that (a) british riders dont dope and (b) any foreigner who had good form in the past and is not at their best now must have been on drugs.


 
I got the joke! 

And that doesn't happen often....


----------



## Strathlubnaig (29 Aug 2012)

Slaav said:


> I
> 
> 
> I got the joke!
> ...


Good man ! There is still hope then.


----------



## rich p (29 Aug 2012)

Slaav said:


> I
> 
> 
> I got the joke!
> ...


We all got it - it's just that it was neither funny or accurate.
It would be nice too if we could keep this thread for chit chat about the Vuelta and leave the sly innuendo and mudslinging to the other thread that shall be nameless.
That's just my wish of course.


----------



## Flying_Monkey (29 Aug 2012)

Strathlubnaig said:


> Obviously alluding to the general trend on this forum that (a) british riders dont dope and (b) any foreigner who had good form in the past and is not at their best now must have been on drugs.


 
Actually there are plenty of rumours around about British riders (remember the UCI list?). However I don't know of any suspicions around Ben Swift.


----------



## Strathlubnaig (29 Aug 2012)

I am not saying there are rumours about Swift.
I think I will just retire from the conversation now. The moment has passed. No point in expanding / explaining.


----------



## Strathlubnaig (29 Aug 2012)

rich p said:


> We all got it - it's just that it was neither funny or accurate.
> It would be nice too if we could keep this thread for chit chat about the Vuelta and leave the sly innuendo and mudslinging to the other thread that shall be nameless.
> That's just my wish of course.


I refer the hounorable member to #350


----------



## raindog (29 Aug 2012)

Strathlubnaig said:


> I refer the hounorable member to #350


Most people who follow cycling closely are a bit suspicious of Cobo's performance in last year's Vuelta because of what he achieved, or rather _didn't_ achieve in the months before, and his complete and absolute none-performance ever since. But what has that got to do with Brit riders? If you're suggesting I was being xenophobic, then you should look at a couple more of my posts where I'm hoping Rodriguez will win this year's event. If you're not suggesting I was being xenophobic, then I still don't understand your original post.


----------



## thom (29 Aug 2012)

@ 13.25km :

Contador : 16:22
Kessiakof : +2 sec
Froome : + 4 sec
Valverde : +31 sec
Rodriguez : + 39 sec


----------



## accountantpete (29 Aug 2012)

Rodriguez now at 43secs Froome at 3secs


----------



## raindog (29 Aug 2012)

come on JRod!


----------



## thom (29 Aug 2012)

@ 23.5km :
Kessiakof : 35:42
Contador : +2 sec
Froome : +18 sec
Valverde : +37 sec
Rodriguez : +56 sec


----------



## accountantpete (29 Aug 2012)

Froome is now 18s back from Contador - bit of a punishing climb that.


----------



## rich p (29 Aug 2012)

Bertie in red tonight then


----------



## montage (29 Aug 2012)

If Froome can't beat Bertie in this, then that is going to be a serious blow to his moral


----------



## thom (29 Aug 2012)

montage said:


> If Froome can't beat Bertie in this, then that is going to be a serious blow to his moral


morale surely ? Or are you insinuating something... ? 
Froome now 26 secs back


----------



## thom (29 Aug 2012)

@ Finish :
Kessiakof : 52:36
Contador : +17 sec
Froome : +39 sec
Valverde : +68 sec
Rodriguez : +77 sec

Equal overall time now for Contador & Rodriguez...
edit - the fractions give Rodriguez a 1 sec GC advantage over Contador


----------



## accountantpete (29 Aug 2012)

Contador 52.53 finish
Froome 53.15


----------



## rich p (29 Aug 2012)

Froome 3rd - creditable but he may have hoped to beat Bertie


----------



## rich p (29 Aug 2012)

JRod by 1 second!


----------



## accountantpete (29 Aug 2012)

Overall

Rodriguez -
Contador @1 sec
Froome @ 16


----------



## raindog (29 Aug 2012)

Amazing TT from my man considering it's really not his cuppa tea


----------



## montage (29 Aug 2012)

raindog said:


> Amazing TT from my man considering it's really not his cuppa tea


 

Indeed! Perfect situation for him.
Bit of a disaster for Froomey mind - but as this vuelta has shown so far, anything can happen!


----------



## thom (29 Aug 2012)

Overall it makes me think Froome will find it hard to drop Contador on the longer climb finishes and the shorter ones obviously play to Valverde and Rodriquez. 
Time bonuses likely to decide the race - Rodriguez may well be able to hang in there.


----------



## raindog (29 Aug 2012)

montage said:


> Indeed! Perfect situation for him.
> Bit of a disaster for Froomey mind - but as this vuelta has shown so far, anything can happen!


there's going to be alot of hard fighting in the days to come


----------



## raindog (29 Aug 2012)

thom said:


> Time bonuses likely to decide the race - Rodriguez may well be able to hang in there.


He's a gutsy bugger. Apparently tomorrow's stage kicks up at the finish - wouldn' be surprised to see him have a go like he did last sunday.


----------



## thom (29 Aug 2012)

raindog said:


> He's a gutsy bugger. Apparently tomorrow's stage kicks up at the finish - wouldn' be surprised to see him have a go like he did last sunday.


Yeah, I think you're right there is a lot of pain to come. Rodriguez and Contador appear the most potent.


----------



## rich p (29 Aug 2012)

raindog said:


> He's a gutsy bugger. Apparently tomorrow's stage kicks up at the finish - wouldn' be surprised to see him have a go like he did last sunday.


 Yes, tricky finish and made for Rodriguez...

... _Similar to stage 6, today’s parcours has no complications until the very final few kilometres, where the riders face the precipitous climb to the Mirador del Ezaro. Rated by Vuelta stage winner Gustavo César Veloso as "tougher than the climb in Valdepeñas de Jaén", where Joaquim Rodríguez put his rivals to the sword last year, the 1.8km ramp averages 13.5 per cent. Veloso believes that riders will opt for gearing similar to a stage up the Alto del Angliru. One stretch rears up to 30 per cent near the bottom, which is sure to blow the fast-moving bunch apart. Incredibly, this stage is categorised as flat_


----------



## Nearly there (29 Aug 2012)

I think Froome will struggle to claw back the seconds now but you never know


----------



## Nearly there (29 Aug 2012)

I thought Rodriguez was suppose to be cack at TT ?


----------



## raindog (29 Aug 2012)

Nearly there said:


> I thought Rodriguez was suppose to be cack at TT ?


He's not as bad as he used to be and the hilly course suited him, but he still lost a shed load of time to Froome and Berto.


----------



## Crackle (29 Aug 2012)

It's still a pretty open race. I was expecting bigger time gaps, not sure Froome can win this now. He looked like he was beginning to struggle towards the rest day and Rodriguez has been canny. If he can maintain his form, he's surely got this.


----------



## beastie (29 Aug 2012)

raindog said:


> He's not as bad as he used to be and the hilly course suited him, but he still lost a shed load of time to Froome and Berto.





60 secs to Bertie and less to Froome is hardly a shedload. Still a wide open race. It will all still be settled the last 2 mtf


----------



## lukesdad (29 Aug 2012)

thom said:


> Yeah, I think you're right there is a lot of pain to come. Rodriguez and Contador appear the most potent.


 
Not sure about that, considering Valverdes crash and chase, he has closed on all of them since. I still think bertie will win tho'


----------



## Flying_Monkey (29 Aug 2012)

My prediction after today is that Froome will not be on the podium at the end. Unless something goes horribly wrong, I think it will be Contador, Valverde, Rodriguez (in that order). Froome needed not only to beat Contador today but he had to put significant time into him, Purito and Valverde. He didn't.


----------



## lukesdad (29 Aug 2012)

Flying_Monkey said:


> My prediction after today is that Froome will not be on the podium at the end. Unless something goes horribly wrong, I think it will be Contador, Valverde, Rodriguez (in that order). Froome needed not only to beat Contador today but he had to put significant time into him, Purito and Valverde. He didn't.


 
Yep thats the way I see it too, When it comes to next week I think the first 2 will have more in the tank than JR and Froome.


----------



## Noodley (29 Aug 2012)

Froomedog! Froomedog Froomedog! Froomedog!


----------



## iLB (29 Aug 2012)

Noodley said:


> Froomedog! Froomedog Froomedog! Froomedog!


 
trololol


----------



## smutchin (29 Aug 2012)

Haven't seen any of today's stage yet, but here's one I wrote earlier:



smutchin said:


> I think it may have been mentioned upthread already, but in case anyone needs reminding, look at the results of the time trial round Lake Annecy in the 2009 Tour de France, which was over similar terrain and distance to this year's Vuelta TT...



<insert smug git emoticon here>

d.


----------



## marinyork (29 Aug 2012)

smutchin said:


> <insert smug git emoticon here>
> 
> d.


 
Which particular results had you in mind? 
Valverde didn't ride that TT.
Jrod didn't ride that TT.
Froome erm didn't ride that TT.


----------



## zimzum42 (29 Aug 2012)

The longer this Vuelta goes on the more stupid those people who claimed Froome should have been leader ahead of Wiggo at the TdF look...

I'm sure he'll have his day in Paris, but he's not ready yet IMO


----------



## Strathlubnaig (29 Aug 2012)

Flying_Monkey said:


> My prediction after today is that Froome will not be on the podium at the end. Unless something goes horribly wrong, I think it will be Contador, Valverde, Rodriguez (in that order). Froome needed not only to beat Contador today but he had to put significant time into him, Purito and Valverde. He didn't.


Very succint (sp ?) and to the point. You could be right.
Been holding off reading the thread until I watched the highlights, was out swimming on my bike earlier on.


----------



## zimzum42 (29 Aug 2012)

Strathlubnaig said:


> was out swimming on my bike earlier on.


Do you not get problems with rust?


----------



## Chuffy (29 Aug 2012)

zimzum42 said:


> The longer this Vuelta goes on the more stupid those people who claimed Froome should have been leader ahead of Wiggo at the TdF look...
> 
> I'm sure he'll have his day in Paris, but he's not ready yet IMO


Hmmmmm. I agree that Wiggy justified being leader, but it's a bit unfair to draw conclusions about Froome given the Tour he just rode - the guy looks tired, and no surprise. Had he missed the Tour and prepared for the Vuelta as his main goal I reckon he'd win.


----------



## rich p (29 Aug 2012)

zimzum42 said:


> The longer this Vuelta goes on the more stupid those people who claimed Froome should have been leader ahead of Wiggo at the TdF look...
> 
> I'm sure he'll have his day in Paris, but he's not ready yet IMO


 I rhink we have to cut him some slack due to the heavy programme and effort he has put in. Valv.Piti only had a couple of efforts in the TdF, JRod didn't do it and Dirty Bertie was lazing around in Marbella.
I think he's been a bit tactically naive in this race if that's what you mean.


----------



## Strathlubnaig (29 Aug 2012)

zimzum42 said:


> Do you not get problems with rust?


I use the carbon on days like this.


----------



## Strathlubnaig (29 Aug 2012)

zimzum42 said:


> The longer this Vuelta goes on the more stupid those people who claimed Froome should have been leader ahead of Wiggo at the TdF look...
> 
> I'm sure he'll have his day in Paris, but he's not ready yet IMO


I am not so sure, he is still high in the GC and is putting in a good effort, and no doubt following the instructions of the team ds as far as strategy, gie the lad some credit.


----------



## 400bhp (29 Aug 2012)

Great racing to come whatever the end result.


----------



## smutchin (29 Aug 2012)

marinyork said:


> Which particular results had you in mind?
> Valverde didn't ride that TT.
> Jrod didn't ride that TT.
> Froome erm didn't ride that TT.



The result I had in mind was Contador whupping the ass of all the TT specialists on a hilly, technical course. Was I mistaken to draw the parallel? Hmm? Well, was I? Has the evidence of today's stage proved me wrong?

d.


----------



## zimzum42 (29 Aug 2012)

rich p said:


> I rhink we have to cut him some slack due to the heavy programme and effort he has put in. Valv.Piti only had a couple of efforts in the TdF, JRod didn't do it and Dirty Bertie was lazing around in Marbella.
> I think he's been a bit tactically naive in this race if that's what you mean.


That's what I mean, yes, I don't think he's strong enough in the head yet...


----------



## rich p (29 Aug 2012)

zimzum42 said:


> That's what I mean, yes, I don't think he's strong enough in the head yet...


 In that case we're in full agreement! (And Strauss has resigned!)


----------



## zimzum42 (29 Aug 2012)

rich p said:


> In that case we're in full agreement! (And Strauss has resigned!)


It's Loudon time!


----------



## lukesdad (29 Aug 2012)

smutchin said:


> The result I had in mind was Contador whupping the ass of all the TT specialists on a hilly, technical course. Was I mistaken to draw the parallel? Hmm? Well, was I? Has the evidence of today's stage proved me wrong?
> 
> d.


That might depend on what he was being told, he would have had the time gaps. Does he want red yet ? Does he want to hold something back ? Who knows.


----------



## perplexed (30 Aug 2012)

I'm struggling to see anything but Froome going backwards from here on in. Within the first few km yesterday, from his posture on the bike, I thought "Nope, not gonna happen, he looks totally spent..."


----------



## raindog (30 Aug 2012)

perplexed said:


> I'm struggling to see anything but Froome going backwards from here on in.


Well, at least that will mean his own special 57 page thread in TheClinic will fizzle out.
(at least for the time being)


----------



## rich p (30 Aug 2012)

perplexed said:


> I'm struggling to see anything but Froome going backwards from here on in. Within the first few km yesterday, from his posture on the bike, I thought "Nope, not gonna happen, he looks totally spent..."


 He did look rough in the TT but I think that's his riding style (or lack of). He was still 3rd finisher albeit not taking time out of AC. I still have a lingering hope that he'll be stronger on the longer climbs but it may be a vain one.


----------



## smutchin (30 Aug 2012)

David Harmon just mentioned that the steepest part of today's final climb is 30%.

OMFG.

d.


----------



## Nearly there (30 Aug 2012)

Froome looks out of this


----------



## smutchin (30 Aug 2012)

Wow, that looked vicious. Short but bloody sharp.

Froome did OK but no way he was going to stay with Rodriguez and Contador. Nice one, Purito!

d.


----------



## rich p (30 Aug 2012)

Froome's only hope is that JR can't do the long hills and that ValvPiti tires...

...and Bertie gets food poisoning from a dodgy Spanish steak.

That finish was brutal today.


----------



## raindog (30 Aug 2012)

JRod got the job done - hoped he would. 

Let's not count Berto out yet though. The real mountain climbs will suit him much better.


----------



## Flying_Monkey (30 Aug 2012)

Exactly, Purito has to take advantage of these finishes because they are his speciality. He will lose time to Contador and Valverde on the long grinds. Normally he might lose time to Froome there too, but I think he's in better shape than Froome right now. Gesink is looking pretty good too, and I can even see him making a move and getting nearer to Froome in the overall.


----------



## perplexed (30 Aug 2012)

I think that Rodriguez, Bertie and Valverde will have to drop off the road for Froome to have a chance now. Hopefully I'm wrong, but I still think he looks totally knackered.

I wonder how Zandio is doing after his faceplant? He looked pretty stunned for a while...


----------



## thom (30 Aug 2012)

Wowzer, that looked tough.


----------



## raindog (31 Aug 2012)

raindog said:


> Well, at least that will mean his own special 57 page thread in TheClinic will fizzle out.
> (at least for the time being)


I spoke too soon.
Apparently his counter performance is because he's on drugs.....

"Froome is doping. 100%. He’s suffering from dopers fatigue. You simply can’t keep transfusing all year long. You also need to cycle off the drugs you’re using to allow your body to return to its normal levels. Otherwise you start to reach a point where you doping is not bringing you to the higher levels. Any body builder knows the important of cycling in and out of a doping program. You don’t dope 365 days a year. Additionally mentally it’s very difficult to dope for more than 6 – 8 months of the year."

So if you're performing well you're on a programme and and if you're not performing well, you're _still_ on a programme. TheClinic now has all facets of bike performance covered.


----------



## rich p (31 Aug 2012)

raindog said:


> I spoke too soon.
> Apparently his counter performance is because he's on drugs.....
> 
> "Froome is doping. 100%. He’s suffering from dopers fatigue. You simply can’t keep transfusing all year long. You also need to cycle off the drugs you’re using to allow your body to return to its normal levels. Otherwise you start to reach a point where you doping is not bringing you to the higher levels. Any body builder knows the important of cycling in and out of a doping program. You don’t dope 365 days a year. Additionally mentally it’s very difficult to dope for more than 6 – 8 months of the year."
> ...


 
You need therapy RD to wean you away from the clinic!


----------



## raindog (31 Aug 2012)

rich p said:


> You need therapy RD to wean you away from the clinic!



know anyone cheap who can handle an extreme case?


----------



## rich p (31 Aug 2012)

raindog said:


> know anyone cheap who can handle an extreme case?


 I'd recommend your local bartender as first point of call.


----------



## Strathlubnaig (31 Aug 2012)

Nice one Steve Cummings, good win for him and BMC.


----------



## rich p (31 Aug 2012)

Well done Cummings. Show of strength from 4km out!


----------



## Flying_Monkey (31 Aug 2012)

Very pleased. One of my favourite British riders.


----------



## raindog (31 Aug 2012)

bugger - missed it today, but sounds like a great win from Steve.
Well done lad!


----------



## Chuffy (1 Sep 2012)

raindog said:


> know anyone cheap who can handle an extreme case?


.I'd be tempted to troll the living crap out the place and go out in a blaze of glory. Alternatively, just scramble your password and stop reading certain threads. It's on a par with the comments below You Tube videos, bar a few honourable exceptions.


----------



## lukesdad (1 Sep 2012)

Well that was a tough 'flat' stage riders dropping off the back all over the place. Not sure it was due to the pace they just know whats comming. The winner this year will be the last man standing.


----------



## raindog (1 Sep 2012)

Chuffy said:


> It's on a par with the comments below You Tube videos, bar a few honourable exceptions.


Very true Chuffy.
I've left sarcastic comments once or twice and even had a laughable reprimand from Admin once by pm.


----------



## rich p (1 Sep 2012)

First of the last week's mountain finishes today. contador and Saxo stringing it out.


----------



## rich p (1 Sep 2012)

Impressive fighting qualities shown by Froome but fruitless maybe


----------



## Nearly there (1 Sep 2012)

Froome needs a good rest


----------



## martint235 (1 Sep 2012)

It's a shame Froome seems to be so tired but hardly surprising given his year. I have to say I'm enjoying watching Rodriguez though, the way he seems able to just ride away from Contador at the end of stages :-)


----------



## raindog (1 Sep 2012)

My man JRod again!  
Great riding and attacking, but Berto looked in a state of shock after the finish.


----------



## beastie (1 Sep 2012)

Froome looked cooked there. Purito is looking very strong. Isn't it interesting how riders nowadays can attack full gas and build a gap, but then seem to pay for it as the climb goes on. A few years ago contador would have put 2 mins into everyone else, now he looks a super climber but no longer invincible. Is this a lack of racing, or a lack of steak.


----------



## raindog (1 Sep 2012)

beastie said:


> Isn't it interesting how riders nowadays can attack full gas and build a gap, but then seem to pay for it as the climb goes on. A few years ago contador would have put 2 mins into everyone else, now he looks a super climber but no longer invincible. Is this a lack of racing, or a lack of steak.


Berto looked very human today didn't he? Much as he did in last year's Tour. I would say it's definitely lack of steak.


----------



## beastie (1 Sep 2012)

Also attacking Rodriguez with only 4 km to go means he can use his awesome kick to claw back 20 - 30 secs in the last km. Maybe it will take an attack from much further out to put him in the red? That carries it's own risks mind. Or maybe Purito is just the strongest?


----------



## yello (1 Sep 2012)

Enjoyed that. Those guys are incredible, you think they're riding at the limit and then they attack, or respond to an attack. Incredible stuff.

Did Froome have a wee bit of a rush of blood to the head there? That attack of his (and credit for giving it a go), did that do him in d'ya reckon? Might he have been better served just continuing on at his own pace?


----------



## rich p (1 Sep 2012)

yello said:


> Enjoyed that. Those guys are incredible, you think they're riding at the limit and then they attack, or respond to an attack. Incredible stuff.
> 
> Did Froome have a wee bit of a rush of blood to the head there? That attack of his (and credit for giving it a go), did that do him in d'ya reckon? Might he have been better served just continuing on at his own pace?


 I agree. He did much the same last week after clawing his way slowly back to the group. Suicidal or brave!


----------



## Flying_Monkey (1 Sep 2012)

Purito is doing a fantastic job. I really thought Contador had him today. Valverde now level with Froome - he'll drop out of the podium places in the next couple of stages.


----------



## Get In The Van (1 Sep 2012)

Really enjoyed the racing today, good attacking and as mentioned above, Bertie looked washed out at the finish,
roll on tomorrow


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## thom (1 Sep 2012)

Just saw the last couple of km - I guess Froome has nothing to lose really so if he feels he might be able to attack and go then he has a go. He looks well cooked and that it's at least useful experience. Must be very hard to maintain motivation for another week though.
JRod, is racing Contador pretty beautifully - Monday's final climb is much longer than today (and tomorrow) and maybe the best opportunity for Contador to turn the tables on him.


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## tigger (1 Sep 2012)

Rodriguez is doing a very good job indeed. Contador looked gutted when he appeared back on his wheel. I haven't followed this Vuelta with any real passion, but I've enjoyed catching the last few kms when I'm around. 

Hard to see past Rodriquez unless there is another TT? Wouldn't bet against Bertie either - great to see him back (and looking a clean, more mortal rider, I think makes him more interesting).


----------



## rich p (1 Sep 2012)

This racing looks as 'mortal' as the Giro, which was notable for its conservatism apart from one dig by De Gendt on the Stelvio. All the leaders just marking each other.
This race has shown how it can be both clean and animated so, although it sticks in the craw a little() it's a pleasure to watch Contador, Valverde go head to head with Froome and JRod in the mix too. Great stuff.


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## Noodley (1 Sep 2012)

Totally agree rich, just watched the highlights from today. Tough racing, and they look like they are doing it properly. Just shows that doping is not needed. It's much better than watching them whistling up mountains.


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## 400bhp (1 Sep 2012)

Shows the fallability and the human side too.


----------



## Smokin Joe (1 Sep 2012)

Very tough ride from Froome, I wonder how he'd have gone if he didn't have the tour in his legs?


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## Chuffy (1 Sep 2012)

Bah! Missing this on account of being on holibobs. Hopefully the last week will be as good.


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## Crackle (1 Sep 2012)

Smokin Joe said:


> Very tough ride from Froome, I wonder how he'd have gone if he didn't have the tour in his legs?


 
I wondered how he'd have gone if he hadn't jumped past when he caught them, that was a blunder, he still looking naive.


----------



## Slaav (1 Sep 2012)

Crackle said:


> I wondered how he'd have gone if he hadn't jumped past when he caught them, that was a blunder, he still looking naive.


 
Cannot help but think that if he didn't have his TdF legs in him, he would be prancing about showing off - in a good way 

However - he has a great opinion of himself and he is CORRECT! He is a great rider with unbelievable stamina. But.... after TdF and the course (without a full TdF team behind him now) I cannot see a way back for him on climb after climb


----------



## Monsieur Remings (2 Sep 2012)

Slaav said:


> *Cannot help but think that if he didn't have his TdF legs in him, he would be prancing about showing off - in a good way*
> 
> However - he has a great opinion of himself and he is CORRECT! He is a great rider with unbelievable stamina. But.... after TdF and the course (without a full TdF team behind him now) I* cannot see a way back for him on climb after climb*


 
I agree entirely. Rodriguez is on absolutely top form too and any rider with him and Berty to worry about after coming 2nd as a super-dom in the TDF is always going to be fighting an uphill battle...or should that be mountain? I fear the Spaniards already have the measure of him and the strength of the Sky team at the Vuelta.

Hopefully next year we'll see the full weight of the ominous black sky train come down to bear on any challengers with Monsieur Wiggins leading the charge, in France and Spain, working for the young talent instead...?


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## smutchin (2 Sep 2012)

Monsieur Remings said:


> Rodriguez is on absolutely top form



I read a comment elsewhere that he looked "surprisingly fresh" at the end of yesterday's stage. Sigh. I suppose the innuendo is inevitable but I hope there's nothing more to it than idle gossip. I like Purito and I think I trust him - he's always made the right noises on that subject. I think he just rode up the final climb more cannily than the others and, as you say, is in top form. Contador looked absolutely cooked at the end of it, which is kind of reassuring. 

I really hope Purito wins this. Katusha were foolish not to take him to the Tour last year - he was in great form then and I think could have been on the podium at least - and he was a bit unlucky in the Giro this year. 

d.


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## Noodley (2 Sep 2012)

Surprisingly fresh!??? He looked completely shagged.


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## smutchin (2 Sep 2012)

Hey, it wasn't me who said it - I merely report what others have said. 

d.


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## Smokin Joe (2 Sep 2012)

Crackle said:


> I wondered how he'd have gone if he hadn't jumped past when he caught them, that was a blunder, he still looking naive.


He obviously felt good enough to launch his attack at the time, it was a blunder with hindsight but if you are riding to win then at some point you've got to go for it. As Roche says, if you want to win you've got to be prepared to lose.


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## smutchin (2 Sep 2012)

And fwiw, I agree with you - I thought they all looked done in. Contador and Froome looked like they'd suffered more than most, but none of them looked what I would call "fresh". Not even Valverde. 

It would be good to see some numbers to get a more objective measure of their performance. 

d.


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## rich p (2 Sep 2012)

To my way of thinking JRod is performing better than expected in some ways vis a vis his previous performances in Gts.
The reasons other than being a doper, which I don't think he is, are there.
He has often been a domestique before and burnt himself out in the support of his leader - sounds rather heroic and mediaeval when you write it down!
He is fresh having not done the TdF
The rest are riding cleaner so he's racing his peers up the mountain on a level playing field - errr! (Valv, Cobo, AC to name but 3)


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## Noodley (2 Sep 2012)

smutchin said:


> Hey, it wasn't me who said it - I merely report what others have said.
> d.


 
Oooo touchy!


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## Noodley (2 Sep 2012)

rich p said:


> To my way of thinking JRod is performing better than expected in some ways vis a vis his previous performances in Gts.
> The reasons other than being a doper, which I don't think he is, are there.
> He has often been a domestique before and burnt himself out in the support of his leader - sounds rather heroic and mediaeval when you write it down!
> He is fresh having not done the TdF
> The rest are riding cleaner so he's racing his peers up the mountain on a level playing field - errr! (Valv, Cobo, AC to name but 3)


 
I reckon there will be a number of "previously-average" riders who can now show that their "average" is in fact "very good" if the dopers are no longer doping. 

I still dinnae think Nico Roach is one of them tho  although he has done well in GCs this year.


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## Flying_Monkey (2 Sep 2012)

Well, great finish today, and it's now between Purito and Contador. With Valverde pretty much assured of 3rd place. Froome looks knackered.


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## jdtate101 (2 Sep 2012)

Froome just has too many miles in those legs to contend anymore, but he's showing true grit and character to still give it his all. True champion in the making.


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## montage (2 Sep 2012)

Should put the "Froome dopes" clan back in their cage at least


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## Crackle (2 Sep 2012)

montage said:


> Should put the "Froome dopes" clan back in their cage at least


The Froome thread is not or was not on the first two pages of The Clinic, mind you, they are busy blustering about Armstrong.


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## raindog (2 Sep 2012)

montage said:


> Should put the "Froome dopes" clan back in their cage at least


you obviously missed post 431 
http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/vuelta-a-españa-2012-with-spoilers.106773/page-22


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## Smokin Joe (2 Sep 2012)

This is the best GT I've seen for many a year, shades of Anquetil and Poulidor in 1964 the way Contador and Rodriguez are slugging it out. The commentator on ITV4 kept saying Rodriguez looked to be struggling every time Contador attacked but he looked comfortable and in control to me.

The tough season is catching up with Froome but he is a gritty rider who won't give up. In fact he is becoming my favourite rider in the peloton, he conducts himself well in post race interviews with no bullshit.


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## 400bhp (2 Sep 2012)

Contador must be having nightmares-that bugger is stuck to him like glue.


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## Monsieur Remings (2 Sep 2012)

Rodriguez - Es cojonudo!

Doesn't Purito make him sound like a matador...?

He really does have the measure of Berty, lets him go so far and brings him back. I like the way he came up alongside Contador, making clear symbolically as well as tactically, that he is every bit his equal. I hope he wins now.


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## Zofo (2 Sep 2012)

Smokin Joe said:


> This is the best GT I've seen for many a year, shades of Anquetil and Poulidor in 1964 the way Contador and Rodriguez are slugging it out.


 
I agree,this is proper racing for a change--puts the TDF in the shade anyday.


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## rich p (3 Sep 2012)

Every now and again I drag myself away from the circular debate about Armstrong and into the refreshing clean air of the Vuelta. Thank goodness for Froome, Contador, Valverde and Rodriguez and that's a sentnece I'd never have seen myself writing
Another big one in the high hills today. I can't see it playing out any differently to the previous days with AC and AV attempting and failing to break JRod but who knows. It's going to be well worth watching for the racing and the sensational scenery.


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## Pedrosanchezo (3 Sep 2012)

Loving the Vuelta!!! Cycling doesn't get much better than what we have seen over the last few weeks. The top 3 are climbing as if gravity does not apply. They should be weighted down as a handicap to level the playing field!!  
Rodriguez and Contador are 10/10 for entertainment value.


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## Tomi (3 Sep 2012)

Today, if he is not afraid to lose, AC has a chance to put on the red jersey. Maybe an early break (ie before the last hill) or very high pace on every hill. In the last km's he cant drop Purito, that we all have come to understand by now.


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## raindog (3 Sep 2012)

rich p said:


> I can't see it playing out any differently to the previous days with AC and AV attempting and failing to break JRod but who knows.


Rodriguez said of yesterday's stage, that he was on the point of cracking. If the climb had been a bit longer and Berto had accelerated one more time.......?
The problem with Berto is, he seems able to attack, but unable (unlike the "old" days) to sustain the pace.
Going to be another interesting afternoon.


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## Zofo (3 Sep 2012)

I remember a few years back now that on Eurosport they had a display of real time heart rates for riders. It would be intersting to see what Contator spikes at on those incredible burst he puts in.


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## Rob3rt (3 Sep 2012)

Who cares what his HR is, it's about as interesting as any other arbitrary number. It's completelly irrelevant unless they show % of Max.


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## smutchin (3 Sep 2012)

This final climb today is a monster. Really brutal. They all look completely baked. Insane!

d.


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## Pedrosanchezo (3 Sep 2012)

Can you imagine having to get on a bike and do it all again tomorrow??!!! F-that!!


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## smutchin (3 Sep 2012)

Chapeau Cataldo. Boy, that looked tough. Don't think I've ever seen Contador visibly suffer like that before.


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## thom (3 Sep 2012)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> Can you imagine having to get on a bike and do it all again tomorrow??!!! F-that!!


Rest day tomorrow ;-)
Looks rather painful


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## Pedrosanchezo (3 Sep 2012)

Froome looked like stalling up that hill. BRUTAL!!!


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## Pedrosanchezo (3 Sep 2012)

thom said:


> Rest day tomorrow ;-)
> Looks rather painful


Thank feck. Would be bordering on cruelty to cyclists!


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## thom (3 Sep 2012)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> Thank feck. Would be bordering on cruelty to cyclists!


The following days' profiles look to be "fine" apart from Saturday. As the commentators are saying, barring anything unfortunate, it is unlikely the GC will change now, which is fortunate for Froome (I think he has around 90 secs to Moreno in 5'th).
Contador kept trying but just couldn't dislodge Rodriguez.


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## Flying_Monkey (3 Sep 2012)

One of the best stages of racing I have seen for a while today. Purito is certainly making up for the Giro, and all the top riders were made to look very human.


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## yello (3 Sep 2012)

Sadly, I missed the finish today. I usually knock off working around 4pm to watch the final 10km or so.... not to be today. It sounded brutal, I'll have to watch the summary this evening on tele.


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## Pedrosanchezo (3 Sep 2012)

thom said:


> The following days' profiles look to be "fine" apart from Saturday. As the commentators are saying, barring anything unfortunate, it is unlikely the GC will change now, which is fortunate for Froome (I think he has around 90 secs to Moreno in 5'th).
> Contador kept trying but just couldn't dislodge Rodriguez.


Yeh fortunate for Froome as he is having trouble with anything of gradient. Shame. 
Rodriguez deserves it. He has matched Berti the way only Berti himself could. Then he has the audacity to go past him at the finish, several times! Very impressive. 
Love Contador's attitude though. He just attacks and attacks all on his own. In their current forms and state of tiredness, JRod and Conti are a level above Froome and the rest. Valverde is pretty close but loses it on the 20+ climbs. As most mere mortals would.


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## Get In The Van (3 Sep 2012)

the way Berti and Rod just seemed to accelerate away from Valverde on the last climb was something else, it was if Berti and Rod waited for Valverde to get back on their wheel and then they said 'only joking and rode away again.....time and time again
great racing though, thought the guy who won it was going to burst into tears on the last few hundred metres as his legs had gone, he probably thought that someone kept moving the finish line as well.


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## Slaav (3 Sep 2012)

The finish today is the only time I think I have ever actually thought a pro MIGHT fall or get off and walk.... Brutal doesn't sum it up if you haven't seen it yet.

One of teh commentators actually commented that you could walk up quicker than they were travelling at one point


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## oldroadman (3 Sep 2012)

Slaav said:


> The finish today is the only time I think I have ever actually thought a pro MIGHT fall or get off and walk.... Brutal doesn't sum it up if you haven't seen it yet.
> 
> One of teh commentators actually commented that you could walk up quicker than they were travelling at one point


 
Slowest speed, 9 kph. Walk uphill on a 20%+ gradient at 9 kph? Any other jokes?
It might hurt (well it does, and even more if you are not agreat climber just struggling in the autobus) but you just have to turn the 34 x 28, 36 x 30, or whatever, and suffer horribly. Then do it again next day.


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## rich p (3 Sep 2012)

OUCH - just watched it on catch up. Great spectacle.


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## tigger (3 Sep 2012)

Just watched the highlights. Bloody fantastic! What an epic battle. Gotta love Contador for never giving up and continually attacking only for Rodriguez to stick it right back at him and crossing the line ahead every time. It's got a mix of romantic drama with a bit of Roadrunner!


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## Davehateshills (3 Sep 2012)

I fully expected to see a Pro stall today. Never seen the top riders struggle so much.


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## Smokin Joe (3 Sep 2012)

Davehateshills said:


> I fully expected to see a Pro stall today. Never seen the top riders struggle so much.


I don't think I've ever seen pro riders going as slow as that on a climb. Rod looked like he had the measure of Contador all through the stage and I was actually surprised he didn't attack a bit earlier before the finish.

Froome impresses me more and more each day. He came into this race with the Tour in his legs and the mental pressure of being Wiggins minder to boot, and to be up there in fourth is a great ride despite everyone's expectations. He is still only a rookie in the pro game but his mental attitude, shown by his comments after the stages is very mature and he always seems to be taking lessons on board for the future. I think he could end up as Britain's greatest ever rider.


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## smutchin (3 Sep 2012)

Apparently, Cataldo took over five minutes to complete the final kilometre. 

d.


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## iLB (3 Sep 2012)

smutchin said:


> Apparently, Cataldo took over five minutes to complete the final kilometre.
> 
> d.


velocast listener ?


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## The Couch (3 Sep 2012)

You would expect that this Vuelta is too gruesome for the riders, but I guess Orico Greenedge still has more than enough strength left 

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEvX_vKDYEw


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## 400bhp (3 Sep 2012)

Smokin Joe said:


> *1. I don't think I've ever seen pro riders going as slow as that on a climb*. Rod looked like he had the measure of Contador all through the stage and I was actually surprised he didn't attack a bit earlier before the finish.
> 
> 2. Froome impresses me more and more each day. He came into this race with the Tour in his legs and the mental pressure of being Wiggins minder to boot, and to be up there in fourth is a great ride despite everyone's expectations. He is still only a rookie in the pro game but his mental attitude, shown by his comments after the stages is very mature and he always seems to be taking lessons on board for the future. I think he could end up as Britain's greatest ever rider.


 
1. Awesome - now they know how I feel

2. Agree - really starting to like the bloke - comes across as humbling and wanting to learn.


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## smutchin (3 Sep 2012)

iLB said:


> velocast listener ?



Gary Imlach watcher. 

d.


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## Crackle (3 Sep 2012)

Yep, I started out disliking Froome but I'm beginning to see that his veiled answers were hiding a naievity and immaturity which is clearly changing as he races at this level. I'm liking how he sounds and comes across much better now.


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## Slaav (3 Sep 2012)

oldroadman said:


> Slowest speed, 9 kph. Walk uphill on a 20%+ gradient at 9 kph? Any other jokes?
> It might hurt (well it does, and even more if you are not agreat climber just struggling in the autobus) but you just have to turn the 34 x 28, 36 x 30, or whatever, and suffer horribly. Then do it again next day.


 
Think the commenattor was making a point rather than being totally literal in the statement


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## smutchin (3 Sep 2012)

Talking of being literal, David Harmon said of one rider today that he was "literally dying on his bike" but then quickly corrected himself. 

d.


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## Boon 51 (4 Sep 2012)

Not a great fan of Contador but I think Rodrigues has rode a belter.. plus Froome and a few others of course.


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## raindog (4 Sep 2012)

I didn't really enjoy that stage much.


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## Noodley (4 Sep 2012)

Froomedog! Froomedog! Froomedog!


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## PaulB (4 Sep 2012)

That wasn't bike racing, it was sadistic cruelty only to be enjoyed by masochists. That brute yesterday is what put the Pain in Spain.


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## smutchin (4 Sep 2012)

Someone said earlier that the riders looked human today. Funny that you have to treat them like animals to make them look human.

d.


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## dellzeqq (4 Sep 2012)

there was quite a bit of walking on the ToB once - I think they went up a 33% climb

that was painful to watch. A strange re-run of Schleck v. Contador - with Contador playing Schleck


----------



## screenman (4 Sep 2012)

Am I the only one who thinks Bertie should not be there.


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## Pedrosanchezo (4 Sep 2012)

smutchin said:


> Someone said earlier that the riders looked human today. Funny that you have to treat them like animals to make them look human.
> 
> d.


Think that was probably in reference to them being 'super human' the rest of the time.


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## Pedrosanchezo (4 Sep 2012)

screenman said:


> Am I the only one who thinks Bertie should not be there.


If you mean doping then i suppose opinions will probably divide through the forum. Though, as with any crime, you can only do the time you given. Or better still, the time you are given after appealing your case. As Berti did i am sure. After that what more can you do?? 

This is such a great thread at the moment and ALL the talk is about cycling and it's joys. Do we really want it to turn into another doping discussion???


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## raindog (4 Sep 2012)

screenman said:


> Am I the only one who thinks Bertie should not be there.


Maybe if you first told us why you think he shouldn't be there.......?


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## lukesdad (4 Sep 2012)

Noodley said:


> Froomedog! Froomedog! Froomedog!


 
I think we ve got the message ta !


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## lukesdad (4 Sep 2012)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> This is such a great thread at the moment and ALL the talk is about cycling and it's joys. Do we really want it to turn into another doping discussion???


 
no, but....


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## lukesdad (4 Sep 2012)

...if you want this, it may be inevitable.


rich p said:


> OUCH - just watched it on catch up. Great spectacle.


 


PaulB said:


> That wasn't bike racing, it was sadistic cruelty only to be enjoyed by masochists. That brute yesterday is what put the Pain in Spain.


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## smutchin (4 Sep 2012)

I don't for a second believe that _all_ the riders in this Vuelta are clean, but it seems likely that it's cleaner overall than in the past.

Contador was clearly suffering yesterday in a way that he hasn't in the past, but is that because he's now racing clean or is it just the cumulative effect of four days of hard mountain stages, a truly vicious final climb and lack of race fitness?

And Purito... well, he's looking like a true GT contender this year for the first time, but is that down to his good form and the fact that his rivals are clean(er) thus levelling the playing field... or is it because he's decided if you can't beat them, join them? He's always been vocally anti-doping, but that's no guarantee of anything - we've seen other riders show themselves to have feet of clay on that score.

Overall, speeds up the climbs seem to be slower than in past years, and no one has been able to put in the kind of superhuman performances we saw in the 90s/00s, but is that because they're cleaner or is it because the course is tougher?

Talansky and Froome are both not too far off the pace and they're riders on conspicuously clean teams. Froome would probably be contesting for a podium place if he hadn't had such a long, tough season already.

I'm reserving judgment for now, but in the absence of a good reason to disbelieve my eyes, I'm very much enjoying this monumental Contador vs Rodriguez battle.

d.


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## Pedrosanchezo (4 Sep 2012)

smutchin said:


> I don't for a second believe that _all_ the riders in this Vuelta are clean, but it seems likely that it's cleaner overall than in the past.
> 
> Contador was clearly suffering yesterday in a way that he hasn't in the past, but is that because he's now racing clean or is it just the cumulative effect of four days of hard mountain stages, a truly vicious final climb and lack of race fitness?
> 
> ...


Lol, please no. Don't take the bait. Resist this discussion.


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## smutchin (4 Sep 2012)

Fortunately, that's as much as I have to say on the matter - at least as far as the Vuelta is concerned.

Anyway, it's a rest day - we need _something_ to talk about!

d.


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## Pedrosanchezo (4 Sep 2012)

smutchin said:


> Fortunately, that's as much as I have to say on the matter - at least as far as the Vuelta is concerned.
> 
> Anyway, it's a rest day - we need _something_ to talk about!
> 
> d.


I have been signed off for a few days with man flu so i can feel your pain regarding needing something to talk about. Especially with no cycling on the telly. I tried going for the usual 70-80 mile ride on Sunday and after 12 miles i soon found out something was very very wrong. Legs felt like lead and my head was banging!! So a swift return home was the result. Sure enough later on that night i am full of the wrong kind of stuff that is much better out than in.


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## BSRU (4 Sep 2012)

Personally it has been far more interesting watching the Vuelta than it was watching the Tour de France.


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## rich p (4 Sep 2012)

smutchin said:


> Fortunately, that's as much as I have to say on the matter - at least as far as the Vuelta is concerned.
> 
> Anyway, it's a rest day - we need _something_ to talk about!
> 
> d.


 I agree and said as much upthread - post 469. No-one is getting off the bike without needing a shower.


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## Buddfox (4 Sep 2012)

Has anyone heard much from Wiggo in terms of supportive commentary on how the team is getting on? The clear tiredness that is impacting Froome just serves to underline the sacrifices he made this season (a) in support of Wiggo at the Tour and (b) in support of Cav at the Olympics. Most seem to agree that on fresh legs he would be challenging for the red jersey, if not wearing it (acknowledging that the profile of these climbs does not suit Froome as well as the TdF climbs). I hope he gets the credit he deserves at some point - he's now arguably sacrificed winning three grand tours in the name of the team...

I had expected that Wiggo might have been tweeting positive thoughts about how Team Sky was doing, or would that not be considered good form. Cav tweeted he was pleased with Cummings stage win, but no comments for his team mates?


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## Flying_Monkey (4 Sep 2012)

Mixed reactions to the ridiculous climb yesterday, with some saying it was hardler than the climbs in the Giro, others disagreeing. Other riders just vomiting...


----------



## Strathlubnaig (4 Sep 2012)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Mixed reactions to the ridiculous climb yesterday, with some saying it was hardler than the climbs in the Giro, others disagreeing. Other riders just vomiting...


Love the quote from Ten Dam... "I rode with a compact cassette for the very first time in my life. And in the end, I needed it! It was no fun, I was in a cave of pain. Horrible."


----------



## rich p (4 Sep 2012)

Strathlubnaig said:


> Love the quote from Ten Dam... "I rode with a compact cassette for the very first time in my life. And in the end, I needed it! It was no fun, I was in a cave of pain. Horrible."


I must tweet Sherwen and ask him if a suitcase is worse than a cave or vice versa.


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## Flying_Monkey (5 Sep 2012)

rich p said:


> I must tweet Sherwen and ask him if a suitcase is worse than a cave or vice versa.


 
You can keep a suitcase in a cave but not vice-versa.


----------



## Chuffy (5 Sep 2012)

Strathlubnaig said:


> Love the quote from Ten Dam... "I rode with a compact cassette for the very first time in my life. And in the end, I needed it! It was no fun, I was in a cave of pain. Horrible."


What's a compact cassette? Chainset, yes, but cassette?


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## raindog (5 Sep 2012)

Chuffy said:


> What's a compact cassette? Chainset, yes, but cassette?


Bigger sprockets than the standard 23.


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## lukesdad (5 Sep 2012)

Chuffy said:


> What's a compact cassette? Chainset, yes, but cassette?


 Slip of the tounge.


----------



## thom (5 Sep 2012)

Nice article interview with Froome - he says GC ambitions very much over and thinking to World Championships a bit.


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## thom (5 Sep 2012)

What the hell is going on ? Contador with a 2 min gap to Rodriguez ?!


----------



## thom (5 Sep 2012)

valverde dropping rodriguez too !


----------



## smutchin (5 Sep 2012)

WTF?


----------



## thom (5 Sep 2012)

smutchin said:


> WTF?


Unbelievable stuff !


----------



## smutchin (5 Sep 2012)

I thought today's stage was going to be a dull procession or a breakaway win, so I didn't bother tuning in, thought I'd try to get some work done and just watch the highlights later... and then I saw your comments and had to fire up the live feed immediately for the finale...

Nice tweet from @cyclingfans just now: "As they say, riders make the race. Need another time trial? Create one."


----------



## raindog (5 Sep 2012)

Bloody hell!! I thought this kind of attacking ended when Merckx retired.

I've always liked Berto, but he's just gone up another notch in my estimation.
JRod on a bad day though?


----------



## thom (5 Sep 2012)

Valverde may catch Contador at this rate - JRod is broken
Edit : can Henao win it ?


----------



## Chuffy (5 Sep 2012)

Glad I'm at home today!


----------



## montage (5 Sep 2012)

Heano for the stage! Fingers crossed


----------



## Nearly there (5 Sep 2012)

Great race


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## raindog (5 Sep 2012)

Gobsmacked I am. Bloody gobsmacked.


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## thom (5 Sep 2012)

raindog said:


> Gobsmacked I am. Bloody gobsmacked.


so is Rodriguez


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## Chuffy (5 Sep 2012)

Great stage! Shame about the top two though.


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## Nearly there (5 Sep 2012)

raindog said:


> Gobsmacked I am. Bloody gobsmacked.


I don't think iv'e ever seen a lead blown apart like that


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## Get In The Van (5 Sep 2012)

Wow! just wow! going to watch the highlights again tonight, one of the best stages i've seen lately!
who would have thought a flat stage could turn the Vuelta upside down


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## Crackle (5 Sep 2012)

Chuffy said:


> Great stage! Shame about the top two though.


 
You have to grudgingly admit that Beefy Bert did do well, though it pains.

Astonishing Stage.


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## montage (5 Sep 2012)

I bet Wiggo laughs at those sideburns though


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## lukesdad (5 Sep 2012)




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## lukesdad (5 Sep 2012)

JR still can t get past 2 weeks and Froomedog is still riding Noods !


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## Flying_Monkey (5 Sep 2012)

Damn, I missed all that, because I didn't think much would happen today. I still think Purito could get back second place from Valverde on the last big mountain stage, but Contador has won this now. Amazing surprise attack. And I am very pleased for my pre-season tip, Sergio Henao. If he can learn to TT, he's going to be a GT winner of the future. And perhaps the lumpier classics too.


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## thom (5 Sep 2012)

Is it wrong to ask whether that was believable, or am I too jaded by the LA thread ?


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## Pedrosanchezo (5 Sep 2012)

Stunning win for Berti. Epic tour this......


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## Pedrosanchezo (5 Sep 2012)

thom said:


> Is it wrong to ask whether that was believable, or am I too jaded by the LA thread ?


Jaded. This is a dope free thread.


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## raindog (5 Sep 2012)

thom said:


> Is it wrong to ask whether that was believable, or am I too jaded by the LA thread ?


I think that was just great riding. I can't believe he'd be on summat in his first big race after his ban. If he was on the juice he would've blown JRod off days ago.


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## thom (5 Sep 2012)

raindog said:


> I think that was just great riding. I can't believe he'd be on summat in his first big race after his ban. If he was on the juice he would've blown JRod off days ago.


Yeah, I didn't see it all but it seems JRod and team had a lot of defensive work to do early on, he got isolated and Contador finally had an advantage on this type of stage with the tactics he executed.
Tiralongo's (sp?) help was perhaps unexpected but crucial.


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## Rob500 (5 Sep 2012)

Brilliant stage today. Will definitely watch the highlights again tonight.


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## tigger (5 Sep 2012)

Well that wasn't expected. Switched on too late to see the crucial moves. Looking forward to the highlights...


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## thom (5 Sep 2012)

Rodriguez: "It's a sad day because I lost the Vuelta for sure. Alberto's attack was unexpected and spectacular. He won with two balls."


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## tigger (5 Sep 2012)

tigger said:


> Well that wasn't expected. Switched on too late to see the crucial moves. Looking forward to the highlights...


 
Damn, still none the wiser! Seems that Harmon completely missed it too!


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## Noodley (5 Sep 2012)

Spanish TV missed it, not a single bit of footage of the move - how the feck did they manage that!!?


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## Smokin Joe (5 Sep 2012)

thom said:


> Is it wrong to ask whether that was believable, or am I too jaded by the LA thread ?


Doping doesn't make racing exciting, as recent history shows it is more likely to kill it stone dead as juiced up teams ride tempo at the front all day. You can never guarantee the big hitters are doing it all on mineral water, but there's more chance of that now than there ever has been.


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## thom (5 Sep 2012)

Noodley said:


> Spanish TV missed it, not a single bit of footage of the move - how the feck did they manage that!!?


Siesta .. ?
I think the stage was at a bonkers pace, starting out at something like 48km/h so maybe they just got to the interesting bits much earlier than expected. A bit of a mistake for sure.


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## thom (5 Sep 2012)

Smokin Joe said:


> Doping doesn't make racing exciting, as recent history shows it is more likely to kill it stone dead as juiced up teams ride tempo at the front all day. You can never guarantee the big hitters are doing it all on mineral water, but there's more chance of that now than there ever has been.


Well, I was listening to a Bike show interview with Ned Boulting today who recounted the day Landis did his solo stuff back in the day. Apparently he doped himself with contaminated blood the day before.
Nuff said on this for now though - Contador's reputation precedes him and he has to live with that for the rest of his life.


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## Flying_Monkey (5 Sep 2012)

thom said:


> Well, I was listening to a Bike show interview with Ned Boulting today who recounted the day Landis did his solo stuff back in the day. Apparently he doped himself with contaminated blood the day before.
> Nuff said on this for now though - Contador's reputation precedes him and he has to live with that for the rest of his life.


 
I remember Landis on that day, and he looked completely psycho. The text commentary mentions Contador looking really knackered during his escape today. Whether he was on something or not, it almost certainly wasn't of Landis levels.


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## Rob500 (5 Sep 2012)

Just caught on the ITV4+1 highlights that JRod didn't get on his bike at all during the rest day. I'm relatively new to this but is that not a big no no?


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## Monsieur Remings (5 Sep 2012)

Noodley said:


> Spanish TV missed it, not a single bit of footage of the move - how the feck did they manage that!!?


 
I thought the same myself. Even with Eurosport live coverage of the Vuelta, only the last 30-40km is covered and the break today was so epic that the crucial move started way before and the coverage this afternoon, and I was at home to see most of it, seemed to have Contador in a break with 12 or so others and then the next thing you knew, they'd split into two groups with the chasing group being Valverde's. And that was it. It would have been interesting to have seen Rod's reaction when the break first occured.

Saying all that, this was exemplary and it's great to see someone attacking like this and holding off. He truly is a fantastic rider and aside the many attacks that have failed in the mountains, he took his chance today and has surely won the tour. 

Feel sorry for Rodriguez though, but what a race.


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## tigger (5 Sep 2012)

Rob500 said:


> Just caught on the ITV4+1 highlights that JRod didn't get on his bike at all during the rest day. I'm relatively new to this but is that not a big no no?


 
It certainly isn't the norm... don't know if that's typical for him??


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## Smokin Joe (5 Sep 2012)

tigger said:


> It certainly isn't the norm... don't know if that's typical for him??


It didn't do him any favours, GT riders reckon the body starts to shut down if you don't ride at all on the rest day. Either a mistake on his part or he was just too knackered to get on the bike.


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## smutchin (5 Sep 2012)

Monsieur Remings said:


> It would have been interesting to have seen Rod's reaction when the break first occured.



Sounds like there was no reaction to see! And having watched the highlights, I think that was his undoing today - maybe his legs weren't up to it but more importantly, he was let down/let himself down with shockingly poor tactical decisions by himself and the team. 

Saxo and Movistar on the other hand played a blinder - and Contador made good use of allies from other teams, eg Tiralongo. It would be easy to jump to conclusions about Contador and Valverde but when you look at the support they got compared to Rodriguez, their performances look a lot more credible. And as FM says, Contador was definitely not doing a Landis today. (None of which proves anything either way, of course.)

And it must have been extremely demoralising for Rodriguez to ride the last 15km or so with two Saxo riders sitting on his wheel. 

d.


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## Monsieur Remings (5 Sep 2012)

smutchin said:


> Sounds like there was no reaction to see! And having watched the highlights, I think that was his undoing today - maybe his legs weren't up to it but more importantly, he was let down/let himself down with shockingly poor tactical decisions by himself and the team.
> 
> Saxo and Movistar on the other hand played a blinder - and Contador made good use of allies from other teams, eg Tiralongo. It would be easy to jump to conclusions about Contador and Valverde but when you look at the support they got compared to Rodriguez, their performances look a lot more credible. And as FM says, Contador was definitely not doing a Landis today. (None of which proves anything either way, of course.)
> 
> ...


 
Oh, I've no doubt he's clean. He'd be a fool to come back and start over again. Despite the obvious dislike I have of cheating, Contador is a brilliant rider and you're right, both the rival teams to Katyusha - Movistar and Saxobank - appear a lot more organised, supportive and generally stronger.

Yes, very demoralising, no haggling there to take turns on the front!


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## dellzeqq (5 Sep 2012)

Riis handing bottles to Contador. Heartsinking stuff.


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## Monsieur Remings (5 Sep 2012)

dellzeqq said:


> Riis handing bottles to Contador. Heartsinking stuff.


 
Clenbutorade?


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## HLaB (5 Sep 2012)

Aghh, I was quite happy until now (just watched the highlights) that Dirty Berty wasn't winning


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## Monsieur Remings (5 Sep 2012)

Nah, deserved winner methinks HLaB. A touch of Hinault about him.


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## oldroadman (5 Sep 2012)

Smokin Joe said:


> It didn't do him any favours, GT riders reckon the body starts to shut down if you don't ride at all on the rest day. Either a mistake on his part or he was just too knackered to get on the bike.


 Does not matter how knackered you feel, it's essential to do a couple of hours including some at a good strong pace to keep things moving. Not riding on rest days is highly unrecommended unless you don't mind feeling completely flat next day. Then a stage run at 48km/hr for the first half at least - Saxo/Tinkoff surely wanted to make things happen today, and they did. Plenty of big GC losers.


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## Strathlubnaig (5 Sep 2012)

It's an entertaining race right enough, far more so than the TdF this year.
I read that Moncoutié is retiring on Sunday, shame, he's a great rider, stuck with 1 team his entire pro career and is recognized as always totally clean. Chapeau to him and his efforts, especially last year at the Vuelta.


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## raindog (6 Sep 2012)

Strathlubnaig said:


> I read that Moncoutié is retiring on Sunday


Yes, he's finally on the way out. A bit of a square peg in a round hole. I always liked the bloke. 
I'll miss Sean pronouncing his name "Moncooty" as well.....


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## raindog (6 Sep 2012)

Flying_Monkey said:


> I remember Landis on that day, and he looked completely psycho.


LOL - didn't he just. 
Remember his eyes as he crossed the line? Like he was going to kick an elephant to death.


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## 400bhp (6 Sep 2012)

J Rod's team non existent whilst Contador's were very strong - that's what the big difference seemed to be.


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## thom (6 Sep 2012)

From Science of Sport :
Very interesting...some stats on power output from Vuelta, using VAM method: ​
Stage 14 - Puerto de Ancares (last 9 km, 8.2 %, 738 m). Joaquim Rodriguez: 25 min 48 sec, 20.93 Kph, VAM 1716 m/h, 6.09 W/kg​
Stage 15: Lagos de Covadonga (Village Covadonga→next 8.0 km ,8.85 %, 708 m). Contador,Rodriguez: 25:01, 19.19 Kph, VAM 1698 m/h, 5.89 W/kg​
Then Stage 16: Puerto de Pajares (last 10 km, 7.0 %, 700 m [678 m→1378 m]). Contador, Rodriguez: 27:02, 22.19 Kph, VAM 1554 m/h, 5.75 W/kg.​
Obviously,we recognize that VAM on climbs is subject to issues around wind, and that once-off climbs are affected by tactics, but the numbers suggest that we're well below what we used to see (note that these are all quite short climbs, not the 40 min + of Galibier, Tormalet & Alp d'Huez), and it's not higher than this year's Tour. If anyone has SRM data to validate, let me know. These numbers courtesy @ammattipyoraily​


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## smutchin (6 Sep 2012)

Very interesting. They've definitely _looked_ slower up the climbs, and _seem_ to be suffering more, but it's good to see some numbers to provide a little more objective analysis.

d.


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## thom (6 Sep 2012)

smutchin said:


> Very interesting. They've definitely _looked_ slower up the climbs, and _seem_ to be suffering more, but it's good to see some numbers to provide a little more objective analysis.
> 
> d.


Yes it is good to see the numbers appearing human now. At the end yesterday Valverde was on Contador's tail and Rodriguez appears to have fallen down because he didn't get up on the rest day, so it wasn't an implausible conclusion but such a spectacular stage, well it just makes me a bit sceptical.


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## smutchin (6 Sep 2012)

Well, initially, it was the failure of Rodriguez and his team-mates to respond to Contador's move that allowed him to get away and open the gap. That was just a lack of tactical nous on Katusha's part.

Then Contador got help from others in the breakaway group - not only team-mates but the likes of Tiralongo too - while Rodriguez got absolutely no help at all, especially not from Valverde.

This also explains why Valverde was able to ride away from Rodriguez and chase down Contador towards the end. Plus Valverde had team-mates to assist him in the chase, while Rodriguez was left with two Saxo riders just sitting on his wheel, sapping his morale for mile after mile.

When you look at it that way, it's not only plausible that Rodriguez lost so much time, but to his credit that he managed to limit the losses to two minutes - he did seem to be rallying a bit towards the end and as Contador visibly tired, at least Rodriguez managed to stop the gap getting any bigger.

So, all very believable and not necessarily indicative of Team Saxo having enjoyed a nice barbecue on the rest day.

But not proof that they're riding clean either.

That's my take on it, anyway.

d.


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## 400bhp (6 Sep 2012)

Felt a bit sorry for Purito yesterday. It seemed like he was up against everyone.

Was it Hernandez that finished behind him and gave a sporting equivalent of a Nelson Muntz (ha ha)?


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## Pedrosanchezo (6 Sep 2012)

400bhp said:


> Felt a bit sorry for Purito yesterday. It seemed like he was up against everyone.
> 
> Was it Hernandez that finished behind him and gave a sporting equivalent of a Nelson Muntz (ha ha)?


Jesus Hernandez yeh. Bit cheeky. All tactics though........


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## Flying_Monkey (6 Sep 2012)

raindog said:


> LOL - didn't he just.
> Remember his eyes as he crossed the line? Like he was going to kick an elephant to death.


 
More like he'd already kicked the elephant to death, eaten it and ground its bones to dust with his bare hands...


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## Smokin Joe (6 Sep 2012)

I like Contador, sure he has doping history but he's a brave agressive rider who makes things happen. And he stood up to a treacherous backstabbing bastard of a team-mate who was doing everything he could to lose him the '09 Tour. 

No names, but this guy tried everything he could to Yank the yellow jersey from him.


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## Speicher (6 Sep 2012)

Smokin Joe said:


> I like Contador, sure he has doping history but he's a brave agressive rider who makes things happen. And he stood up to a treacherous backstabbing bastard of a team-mate who was doing everything he could to lose him the '09 Tour.
> 
> No names, but this guy tried everything he could to Yank the yellow jersey from him.


Did that some one also use strong arm tactics?


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## montage (6 Sep 2012)

Good effort by Swifty, possibly his best chance at a stage victory as Degenklob was out of the picture for the sprint.... and the sky train wasn't bad, did more or less all it could have


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## Smokin Joe (6 Sep 2012)

Speicher said:


> Did that some one also use strong arm tactics?


Yep, even stuck a lance in Alberto's back.


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## Speicher (6 Sep 2012)

Smokin Joe said:


> Yep, even stuck a lance in Alberto's back.


 I cannot imagine who you are talking about. Floyd Lancis?


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## montage (6 Sep 2012)

Speicher said:


> I cannot imagine who you are talking about. Floyd Lancis?


 
Pain in the rear usually means noodles is about


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## rich p (7 Sep 2012)

Great finish by Gilbert who is looking a bit more likely for the world champs.
I thought Swifty was going to win one but the line was further away than I thought.


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## Tomi (7 Sep 2012)

Go Philippe!


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## Flying_Monkey (8 Sep 2012)

This is looking so tasty today. Nasty steep finish. Valverde looking twitchy and wanting to go... Such a great race this year, really enjoying it. Porte or Menchov for the win? My money's on Porte.


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## Trail Child (8 Sep 2012)

Ugh, 7 km to go and I just lost my satellite feed because of a wicked storm here.


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## Flying_Monkey (8 Sep 2012)

Purito now dropping Contador and Valverde!


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## thom (8 Sep 2012)

How far left ? Weather perfect in sunny london but the steephill feeds bearing no fruit to me for some reason...


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## Flying_Monkey (8 Sep 2012)

Menchov goes! And wins...


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## thom (8 Sep 2012)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Menchov goes! And wins...


Well given i couldn't see or hear anything, the silent assassin has appropriate timing


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## Trail Child (8 Sep 2012)

Luckily got the satellite feed back at 2 km out and saw Menchov win! This mountain is wicked ...


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## Flying_Monkey (8 Sep 2012)

Valverde catches and passes Contador. He's cracked. But can Purito get enough time on Valverde?


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## Flying_Monkey (8 Sep 2012)

No. Purito got about 30 seconds on Valverde and he got about 20 on Contador. A fantastic finish.


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## thom (8 Sep 2012)

Flying_Monkey said:


> No. Purito got about 35 seconds on Valverde and he got about 20 on Contador. A fantastic finish.


So no overall GC change in the end..


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## rich p (8 Sep 2012)

Another hard finish though where the riders fell over the line.


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## Rob500 (8 Sep 2012)

Fantastic effort from Porte. Menchov proved too strong in the final 50 -100 metres.
Valiant effort from Rodriguez to try and gain back the time.


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## Smokin Joe (8 Sep 2012)

Does the ITV4 commentator (Anthony Whatshisname) know what "Cracked" means? Rodriguez might have dropped Contador, but know way did Alberto crack. And the director's crap too, switching to the riders crossing the line for the minor placings while the battle for GC was going on further down.


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## Flying_Monkey (8 Sep 2012)

Smokin Joe said:


> Does the ITV4 commentator (Anthony Whatshisname) know what "Cracked" means? Rodriguez might have dropped Contador, but know way did Alberto crack. And the director's crap too, switching to the riders crossing the line for the minor placings while the battle for GC was going on further down.


 
I don't know, but I wasn't watching ITV4 and he certainly looked like he had cracked to me, but then it was clearly it wasn't as bad as that later.


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## Chuffy (9 Sep 2012)

Smokin Joe said:


> Does the ITV4 commentator (Anthony Whatshisname) know what "Cracked" means? Rodriguez might have dropped Contador, but know way did Alberto crack. And the director's crap too, switching to the riders crossing the line for the minor placings while the battle for GC was going on further down.


McCrossaint is awful. His commentary sounds like someone hammering rocks together in the hope of coming up with a tune. Horrible to listen to.

I wonder if the director switched because there was a problem with the camera motos? The crowds were very dense on the slopes, they might just have lost the GC guys momentarily.


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## Pedrosanchezo (9 Sep 2012)

That finish looked immense!! I would absolutely love to have a crack at it.........................

Get a lift up and ride the bike down!!!


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## Pedrosanchezo (9 Sep 2012)

All in all an EPIC tour!!! Never expected it to be so good.


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## Basil.B (9 Sep 2012)

Really enjoyed watching the Vuelta.
Feel a bit gutted for Rodriguez though.


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## Flying_Monkey (9 Sep 2012)

Agreed. Great Vuelta this year. And as for Purito - he was the only rider to get on to the podium in two GTs this year. Not too shabby.


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## beastie (9 Sep 2012)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Agreed. Great Vuelta this year. And as for Purito - he was the only rider to get on to the podium in two GTs this year. Not too shabby.


He looked the strongest uphill all the way through. Contador though showed his class and racing savvy to win when not the strongest man in the race. How many other riders could have done that?


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## zimzum42 (10 Sep 2012)

Would be good if this race goaded the TDF organizers into making the 2013 tour a bit more sharp and steep and have more mountaintop finishes. Don't want them to load it too hard in favour of the climbers, couple of long TTs should sort that out


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## thom (10 Sep 2012)

zimzum42 said:


> Would be good if this race goaded the TDF organizers into making the 2013 tour a bit more sharp and steep and have more mountaintop finishes. Don't want them to load it too hard in favour of the climbers, couple of long TTs should sort that out


I think the problem is there aren't very many sharp steep climbs inside France itself, so they'd have to find them in Italy, Switzerland or Spain. For example one of the notorious potential finishes is at Puy-de-Dome which "only" gets up to 13% for about 1 km. France's steep roads mostly come in around 8%.


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## Strathlubnaig (10 Sep 2012)

I would rather see less in the way of TT's, perhaps just the one with a few hilly bits on the TdF. TT stages can really swing a race in favour of a good TT rider, and unless the other stages are challenging enough the leader can sit on that gap, makes for a less exciting race. The Vuelta really showed how this can be avoided.


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## Rob88 (10 Sep 2012)

I have to agree with recent postings, the Vuelta was truly epic. I cannot remember waiting for each TV stage so eagerly since the early days of Channel 4 coverage of the Tour.
Bluff, guile and audacity - Contador could write the book. Every stage was a cliff-hanger. The only grit in my eye with the ITV coverage was the commentary,

Chuffy said:
"McCrossaint is awful. His commentary sounds like someone hammering rocks together in the hope of coming up with a tune. Horrible to listen to"

I must agree. McCrossaint and Smith sounded like Jazza from the Archers trying to get a relevant word in edgeways around a blind Jools Holland hogging the mike with one hand and a bottle of tequila in the other.
How I longed for Liggett and Sherwin. McCrossaint would be rambling away when Contador would put in a blistering attack on the blind side gutter and after 10 seconds someone would nudge McCrossaint to look at the monitor and he would say "Oh someone is moving ahead..."
Where did they find him, has he ever ridden a bike?

The big compensation however was the contribution provided by Roger Hammond. It was a real pleasure to hear his expert views. If Brailsford had the budget and sense he should appoint him GB road coach immediately.

On an historical note - one thing I expected to get mentioned but wasn't - in the early stages when the "Spanish Inquisition" were ganging up and torturing poor old Froomie - was any mention of the Spanish stitching up Robert Millar back in the 80's when he lost the Vuelta in the last days. Has the whole story on this ever surfaced - do we know what really happened?


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## Buddfox (10 Sep 2012)

Rob88 said:


> How I longed for Liggett and Sherwin.


 
That ought to prompt a response from some members....!


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## 400bhp (10 Sep 2012)

Buddfox said:


> That ought to prompt a response from some members....!


 
Liggett "Tony Martin has stopped again"

Sherwin "That was a replay of what happened earlier"


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## ColinJ (10 Sep 2012)

Buddfox said:


> That ought to prompt a response from some members....!


I volunteer - the absence of Phil and Paul was what made the IT4 coverage tolerable for me!

I thought that the commentary was okay and Roger Hammond's post-race analyses were great.

ITV4 Player is a joke though, at least as received here. Most evenings, it was buffering every 2-3 seconds so I was sometimes taking up to 2 hours to watch a 45 minute show! BBC iPlayer works fine so I don't think the ISP or router can be blamed.

(I have to use ITV Player because the poxy 'Freeview Lite' we receive here does not include ITV4!)


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## 400bhp (10 Sep 2012)

ColinJ said:


> I volunteer - the absence of Phil and Paul was what made the IT4 coverage tolerable for me!
> 
> I thought that the commentary was okay and *Roger Hammond's post-race analyses were great.*
> 
> ...


 
He's a miserable sod though - was Mr Grumpy when asked about Orica Greenedge's rendition of a certain song.


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## ColinJ (10 Sep 2012)

400bhp said:


> He's a miserable sod though - was Mr Grumpy when asked about Orica Greenedge's rendition of a certain song.


I agreed with him - _hmmmph!_


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## smutchin (10 Sep 2012)

I'm glad the different Grand Tours have different characters, so much as I enjoyed this year's Vuelta, I wouldn't want the TdF to try to be more like it. Well, not every year - since the TdF is the most prestigious event in the calendar, they need to mix it up a bit, like they do with the World Championships, to give different styles of rider a fair chance to win. If the rumours are to be believed, the 2013 TdF route should suit the Vuelta fans. That's fine, as long as they don't do it _every_ year.

Last year's TdF route was, for my money, the best Grand Tour course of recent years - especially with all the short, sharp hills in the early stages to encourage aggressive racing.

d.


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## ColinJ (11 Sep 2012)

User said:


> colinj I use http://www.filmon.com/#BBC-One it runs live streams and all you have to do is sign up, it's free to watch in SD but they want a fee for HD, But if you have on IPAD - Iphone its free all the time, or so I'm lead to believe, don't have on IPAD - Iphone...


I might give that a go.

I discovered that ITV Player worked perfectly during the day yesterday so I reckon the problem is that the ITV servers can't cope with peak demand in the evenings.

I normally watch cycling on Eurosport Player but was using ITV Player to catch up on the Vuelta stages that I missed while I was in hospital recently. The Tour of Britain doesn't seem to be on Eurosport so I need ITV4 for that too.


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## ColinJ (11 Sep 2012)

Hmm... I just tried a few different channels on FilmOn and they seem to stream very nicely. I'll try it on ITV4 this evening to see if it works well when ITV Player grinds to a halt!


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## Smokin Joe (11 Sep 2012)

I'd like to see just one long TT in the Vuelta but I'd make it the final stage, as used to be the case in the TdF. All three GTs now ape the Tour with a circuit race to finish, but one is enough and it gets a bit tedious seeing all the major stage races finish with what is effectively a separate event.


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## ColinJ (11 Sep 2012)

Smokin Joe said:


> I'd like to see just one long TT in the Vuelta but I'd make it the final stage, as used to be the case in the TdF. All three GTs now ape the Tour with a circuit race to finish, but one is enough and it gets a bit tedious seeing all the major stage races finish with what is effectively a separate event.


The trouble is that the only riders who really ride hard in such a TT are those who think they can achieve a top-10 finish in the overall or win the stage. Still, a TT does give the crowd a good chance to see all the riders individually and the last few riders would be fighting for the podium.

I still think the 1989 TdF finish was one of the best ever (the 8 second victory of Lemond over Fignon)!


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## thom (12 Sep 2012)

Bola del Mundo pain


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## VamP (12 Sep 2012)

thom said:


> Bola del Mundo pain



nice


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## david k (15 Sep 2012)

ColinJ said:


> I
> 
> I thought that the commentary was okay and Roger Hammond's post-race analyses were great.
> !)


+1


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