# double chain ring fixie?



## Yellow Fang (26 Jun 2008)

Suppose I were to convert my road bike to a fixie with the use of a rear derailleur. Would I still be able to use the double chain ring, or would there be issues?


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## skwerl (26 Jun 2008)

you can't do that. a rear derailleur will casue the chain to suck when you apply any kind of back-pressure to the pedals. you'll most likely end up in a hedge


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## skwerl (26 Jun 2008)

if, for some reason, you need a two-speed fixed there is the option of fixing an old SA hub or using a Schlumpf mountain drive I guess.

I'm wondering why you'd want such a thing though.


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## domtyler (26 Jun 2008)

I would personally recomend that you simply go out and buy a fixie, either off the shelf or get one made up from a track frame. The result will be much more rewarding than something hashed together out of empty washing up liquid bottles and old fridge freezer parts.


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## Yellow Fang (26 Jun 2008)

Yeah, but where's the fun in that? I'm bored of my bike and want to do something to it.

Also, I read in another thread that it is not recommended to use a Sclumpf mountain drive on a fixed wheel as it would tend to unscrew itself.

Aren't those singulator mechanisms similar to derailleurs?


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## Joe24 (26 Jun 2008)

You can use n old double chainset. You could even leave both rings on if you wanted. But if you wanted to takeone off you would either need to shorten the bolts or buy new shorter ones.
You could do a fixed gear(singlespeed) with a rear mech or a chain tensioner thingy. Or do what i think is called an 'urban' singlespeed. You pick the gear you like on your geared then just shorten the chain and either put a chain tug on or a rear mech set up so it stays in one place with no cable on i.
Why not get anold track/road frame with horizontal drops and convert that to fixed. Would be much more fun, and you will then have another bike?


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## Dave Davenport (26 Jun 2008)

Do you actually mean 'singlespeed' not 'fixie'?


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## Yellow Fang (26 Jun 2008)

Fixie, although probably both, as I would probably go for a flip-flop hub.


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## domtyler (26 Jun 2008)

Yellow Fang said:


> Yeah, but where's the fun in that? I'm bored of my bike and want to do something to it.
> 
> Also, I read in another thread that it is not recommended to use a Sclumpf mountain drive on a fixed wheel as it would tend to unscrew itself.
> 
> Aren't those singulator mechanisms similar to derailleurs?



Fair enough, if you get your fun out of the building and not the riding I guess!


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## Dave Davenport (26 Jun 2008)

Yellow Fang said:


> Fixie, although probably both, as I would probably go for a flip-flop hub.



You can't run a fixed with any sort of sprung chain tensioner, singlespeeds ok though.


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## skwerl (26 Jun 2008)

Joe24 said:


> You can use n old double chainset. You could even leave both rings on if you wanted. But if you wanted to takeone off you would either need to shorten the bolts or buy new shorter ones.
> You could do a fixed gear(singlespeed) with a rear mech or a chain tensioner thingy. Or do what i think is called an 'urban' singlespeed. You pick the gear you like on your geared then just shorten the chain and either put a chain tug on or a rear mech set up so it stays in one place with no cable on i.
> Why not get anold track/road frame with horizontal drops and convert that to fixed. Would be much more fun, and you will then have another bike?



you can't make a fixed with a singulator/derailleur. Once the tension in the chain starts in the reverse direction, ie as soon as you stop accelerating, you'll get chain suck.
Try it and see
The only way you might get close to getting away with it is if you have something similar to a singulator that isn't spring loaded but locked in place. My idea was to mount a jockey wheel on a bracket fixed to the underside of the chain-stay, adjusting tension by sliding toward, away from the stay in the vertical plain.


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## Riding in Circles (26 Jun 2008)

Yellow Fang said:


> Yeah, but where's the fun in that? I'm bored of my bike and want to do something to it.
> 
> Also, I read in another thread that it is not recommended to use a Sclumpf mountain drive on a fixed wheel as it would tend to unscrew itself.



Not if you use one with a torque arm.


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## Joe24 (26 Jun 2008)

skwerl said:


> you can't make a fixed with a singulator/derailleur. Once the tension in the chain starts in the reverse direction, ie as soon as you stop accelerating, you'll get chain suck.
> Try it and see
> The only way you might get close to getting away with it is if you have something similar to a singulator that isn't spring loaded but locked in place. My idea was to mount a jockey wheel on a bracket fixed to the underside of the chain-stay, adjusting tension by sliding toward, away from the stay in the vertical plain.



No, i said to make an Urban Fixed/singlespeed with a chain tug. Please not: "You could do a *fixed gear(singlespeed)* with a rear mech or a chain tensioner thingy" 
Singlespeed is really a fixed gear, only one gear. Fixed wheel is no freewheel. Or thats how i see it anyway.


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## skwerl (26 Jun 2008)

Joe24 said:


> No, i said to make an Urban Fixed/singlespeed with a chain tug. Please not: "You could do a *fixed gear(singlespeed)* with a rear mech or a chain tensioner thingy"
> Singlespeed is really a fixed gear, only one gear. Fixed wheel is no freewheel. Or thats how i see it anyway.



Fixed gear/Fixed wheel are the same thing=no freewheel

S/S=freewheel


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## Joe24 (26 Jun 2008)

Alright then. I saw it differently.


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## Thedude (26 Jun 2008)

Why don't you just get a double fixed hub and put different gearing on each side?


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## mickle (26 Jun 2008)

Sturmey Archer used to make a three speed fixed hub according to an old chap I met in the street twenty years ago. According to him, and I have no reason to doubt him, it was based on their standard 3spd hub and just like the standard hub has a 'neutral' between 1st and 2nd. Anyone who has used a maladjusted Sturmey hub has experienced the testi/toptube interface potential of 'neutral' which is a just the gap between gears. Folks used to adjust them so that they could use it as a freewheel. When one of the top cyclists of the day got herself killed when her gears engaged and bucked her off under a milk van the hub was withdrawn from sale and actually banned in law. You're not allowed to have gears on a fixed wheel.


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## Fab Foodie (27 Jun 2008)

skwerl said:


> Fixed gear/Fixed wheel are the same thing=no freewheel
> 
> S/S=freewheel


Fixed gear is having only 1 gear which is irrespective of +/-freewheel. Thus a fixed-gear bike can be both Single-speed (with freewheel) or Fixed-wheel (no freewheel)

No freewheel is Fixed-wheel.

For more info...

http://fixiefaqs.xwiki.com/xwiki/bin/view/Main/WebHome#Q1.2


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## mickle (27 Jun 2008)

Fab Foodie said:


> Fixed gear is having only 1 gear which is irrespective of +/-freewheel. Thus a fixed-gear bike can be both Single-speed (with freewheel) or Fixed-wheel (no freewheel)
> 
> No freewheel is Fixed-wheel.
> 
> ...



Fixedgear/fixedwheel=no freewheel. A bike with a freewheel isn't a fixedwheel. Simple.


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## ASC1951 (27 Jun 2008)

mickle said:


> Sturmey Archer used to make a three speed fixed hub according to an old chap I met in the street twenty years ago. According to him, and I have no reason to doubt him, it was based on their standard 3spd hub and just like the standard hub has a 'neutral' between 1st and 2nd. ... Folks used to adjust them so that they could use it as a freewheel. .... the hub was withdrawn from sale and actually banned in law. You're not allowed to have gears on a fixed wheel.


They did indeed make a three-speed fixed hub, called the ASC. I have one from 1951. 

I'm not sure the rest of this is true, though - it doesn't have a neutral anywhere unless it has been bodged, it was sold to time triallists for winter training so there was no sense in buying Sturmey's specialist fixed hub and then making it freewheel, it wasn't withdrawn from sale and I'm never seen anything about it being banned.

If it is illegal, mickle, I'd like to see chapter and verse.


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## mickle (27 Jun 2008)

I have no evidence, just the word of a long dead old codger. The neutral _was_ a bodge according to him, by adjusting the cable to allow use of the tiny gap between 1st and 2nd as a freewheel.


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## skwerl (27 Jun 2008)

Fab Foodie said:


> Fixed gear is having only 1 gear which is irrespective of +/-freewheel. Thus a fixed-gear bike can be both Single-speed (with freewheel) or Fixed-wheel (no freewheel)
> 
> No freewheel is Fixed-wheel.
> 
> ...



hmm. I seem to remember being one of the original contributors to that site. I remember it's birth from C+. Didn't put that comment in though.

Just cos you read that definition on a website doesn't make it right. Convention says otherwise. Convention doesn't have to be exact so fixed vs s/s may not technically be correct enough but the majority of riders will go with fixed* being the non-freewheeling and a s/s being the other, useless version.

To be pedantic I think you'd probably opt for 'single-gear' fixed or single-gear freewheel vs multi-gear freewheel (ie derailleur, hub-gear etc)


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## ASC1951 (27 Jun 2008)

mickle said:


> I have no evidence, just the word of a long dead old codger.


Some old codgers talk old cobblers. Not me, of course...


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## Fab Foodie (27 Jun 2008)

skwerl said:


> Just cos you read that definition on a website doesn't make it right. Convention says otherwise. Convention doesn't have to be exact so fixed vs s/s may not technically be correct enough but the majority of riders will go with fixed* being the non-freewheeling and a s/s being the other, useless version.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> I added the website FAQ's in support of what I've thought for the last 25 years of riding a fixed-wheel bike. But I agree the convention seems to suggest that 'Fixed...wheel/gear' seems these days to refer to the same thing, namely a non-freewheel system... but that doesn't make it right either. Maybe I'm a pedant or just old-fashioned...


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## mickle (28 Jun 2008)

Fixed means not free(wheel). 'S/S' assumes a freewheel. 'Fixed' assumes one gear. End of.


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## mickle (28 Jun 2008)

Fab Foodie;315992][QUOTE=skwerl said:


> Just cos you read that definition on a website doesn't make it right. Convention says otherwise. Convention doesn't have to be exact so fixed vs s/s may not technically be correct enough but the majority of riders will go with fixed* being the non-freewheeling and a s/s being the other, useless version.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> I added the website FAQ's in support of what I've thought for the last 25 years of riding a fixed-wheel bike. But I agree the convention seems to suggest that 'Fixed...wheel/gear' seems these days to refer to the same thing, namely a non-freewheel system... but that doesn't make it right either. Maybe I'm a pedant or just old-fashioned...



Or, with all due respect FF, maybe you've been wrong all along.


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## hubgearfreak (28 Jun 2008)

here's a link to the ASC there's also instructions on how to make an AW into a two speed fixed.. that's two speed fixed as in two speed without a freewheel, not a two speed fixed that's onespeed


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## Fab Foodie (28 Jun 2008)

mickle;316082][QUOTE=Fab Foodie said:


> Or, with all due respect FF, maybe you've been wrong all along.


Maybe.
But the Fixie FAQ's at least demonstrates I'm not the only one...
We might just have to agree to differ.


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## bonj2 (28 Jun 2008)

I personally wouldn't listen to the doubters. I think this is a _lovely_ idea for a project and I think you should give it a go. Ignore the received wisdom, if you think you can make it work then who is anybody else to say that you aren't going to succeed?! This 'chain suck' that is spoke of probably exists but I wouldn't have thought you would get it unless you actually try and brake by back-pedalling. Just install (keep) brakes and use them in the normal way.
To think where we would be in this world without cyclists with a bit of innovation... christ - it's a rum poor do if they just get slapped down!


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## ASC1951 (29 Jun 2008)

The fact that bonj thinks it is a lovely project should make you wary, Yellow Fang.

Chain suck isn't an _inconvenience_ on a fixed wheel, it's a what my Norton Owners Club manual used to call "a grave danger i.e. a danger which may lead to the grave". If your chain stops running for any reason, the back wheel stops going round. Instantly. You carry on down the road at whatever speed you were doing, often on melting rubber and with no steering. At best you will wreck a tyre and your rear mech, at worst you will kill yourself.

There are lots of things you can experiment with on a bike, cheered on by people who know diddly squat about fixed wheel riding. This is not one.


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## bonj2 (29 Jun 2008)

chain suck is rare, and even if you do get it you can just wiggle the cranks a bit and jerk it back to normality.


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## mickle (29 Jun 2008)

Fab Foodie;316491][QUOTE=mickle said:


> Maybe.
> But the Fixie FAQ's at least demonstrates I'm not the only one...
> We might just have to agree to differ.



Respect rude boy.


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## mickle (29 Jun 2008)

bonj said:


> chain suck is rare, and even if you do get it you can just wiggle the cranks a bit and jerk it back to normality.


Chain suck on a fixed wheel would really suck as you'd end up sucking soup through a straw.


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## Joe24 (29 Jun 2008)

Bonj, i thought you didnt see the point of fixed? If you dont, then how do you 'know'(or not know as the case is) sooo much about fixed?


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## ASC1951 (29 Jun 2008)

Bonj knows lots about lots, but even where he has no personal experience he never lets ignorance stand in the way of definitive advice. Usually it's amusing, here it's dangerous.

Don't forget he only does it to wind us up.


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## Joe24 (29 Jun 2008)

I found his post really funny. But for someone that doesnt like fixed, or know about fixed, he appears to know the dangers of riding fixed, and what you can and cant do. Which i think is a tad strange.


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## bonj2 (29 Jun 2008)

Joe24 said:


> Bonj, i thought you didnt see the point of fixed? If you dont, then how do you 'know'(or not know as the case is) sooo much about fixed?



well, i can sort of see _some_ point, in that it'd be fun to goon round the village on one for a laugh, but can't see how it would be that good for most real-world cycling.


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## Joe24 (29 Jun 2008)

So Bonj, you are basicly saying you know nothing about it, but your trying to give advice in it 
Yeh


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## bonj2 (29 Jun 2008)

Joe24 said:


> So Bonj, you are basicly saying you know nothing about it, but your trying to give advice in it
> Yeh



because even if I haven't got a huge wealth of experience in something, I can usually predict things based on other experience, and my predictions are usually right - so I always take any notion that I don't know something about something with a pinch of salt.

But just to reiterate, this following post is _completely_ correct:



bonj said:


> well, i can sort of see _some_ point, in that it'd be fun to goon round the village on one for a laugh, but can't see how it would be that good for most real-world cycling.


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## RedBike (30 Jun 2008)

> because even if I haven't got a huge wealth of experience in something, I can usually predict things based on other experience, and my predictions are usually right



lol


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## Yellow Fang (30 Jun 2008)

I'm going off the idea. I don't want to risk chain-suck. I think I once had chain-suck on the MTB and it threw me off, knocked me out, and caused me to have eleven stitches in my head. I think it was chain-suck anyway. The chain had a tendency to come off due to the front mech being too far up the seat tube.


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## RedBike (30 Jun 2008)

It's not exactly chain suck. 
Most people think of chain suck as when the chain sticks to the chainring and starts to go back around again. 

On your existing bike,
If you hold your pedals still and then very carefully turn the rear cassette (not the wheel) you'll notice the chain gets tighter and tighter along the bottom; and the rear mech is forced up towards the frame. This is effectively what would happen when you stop pedalling on a fixed wheel bike that has a rear mech (only the forces would be a LOT larger)


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## skwerl (30 Jun 2008)

in this month's C+ there's a singluator on review that doesn't use a sprung tensioner but is held tight by a lock nut. That might work if it can be tensioned sufficiently and doesn't risk slippage.
Be nice for someone to give it a try. I'd offer but i don't have a bike with a mech hanger (and I don't want to risk grave injury if something goes wrong).
maybe Bonj could try?


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