# hub gear bikes for kids?



## enas (21 Aug 2015)

Hi,

So I only recently bought our daughter's latest bike (as mentioned in a previous thread), but I'm already thinking about her next bike. Obviously it will be the right time to introduce her to gears. And thinking of this, it seems so obvious to me that three speed hub gears are the ideal introduction to gears for kids: no worrying about stopping in high gear, ability to change when stopped and while pedalling, easy to learn gears intuitively with just three gears (easy/normal/hard), no flimsy derailleur to worry about whenever kids lay their bike down not so gently. And generally, they're cheap and robust.

Is there any manufacturer offering such bikes? My extensive research has been inconclusive. The closest thing I've found is the Pinnacle Aspen 5 speed. That would be exactly what I have in mind, except it's 5 speed and 24 inch -- I am imagining a three speed 20 inch. German manufacturer Puky does something like that, except they're very heavy (although well-specced), and frankly hideous (with their awfully unimaginative girl and boy versions). Some googling up suggests me they were once fairly common (see this for example), but apparently have gone out of fashion or what.

So, apparently, no UK manufacturer does them, but what about lesser known (in these shores) German or Dutch manufacturers? I would appreciate any hint.


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## marknotgeorge (22 Aug 2015)

There's a few on bikediscount.de - mainly Puky, although there's a Cube (which for some reason they won't courier here or Ireland - a shame, because I think it's great!). Alternatively, Taylor Wheels in Germany will make you a 20" rear wheel with a Nexus 3 speed hub for about €78, if you want to adapt something you buy locally.


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## enas (23 Aug 2015)

marknotgeorge said:


> There's a few on bikediscount.de - mainly Puky, although there's a Cube (which for some reason they won't courier here or Ireland - a shame, because I think it's great!). Alternatively, Taylor Wheels in Germany will make you a 20" rear wheel with a Nexus 3 speed hub for about €78, if you want to adapt something you buy locally.



Cheers for the Cube, I hadn't found that one. Unfortunately, I still find it in the same vein as the Puky ones, but less extreme all right (with the obligatory white and pink girly one and "boys" one being full of colours all over the place, heck they managed to fit four colours on the saddle alone). Plus I understand the dynamo light and reflectors (to comply with German regulations as I understand it) makes it a very good choice for everyday utility cycling, but in our case that would be rather over-engineered. Still one to keep in mind though.

I had actually found Taylor Wheels, and seriously consider going down that route, as it can make for an entertaining and easy project to do with my daughter.

And finally, a question I should have asked in the OP. Am I wrong to insist on hub gears? What are the negatives?


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## mjr (23 Aug 2015)

The main negatives on hub gears are the initial purchase cost, the problems of slipping if the cable tension drifts and it's harder to remove most Shimano wheels to fix punctures. The easier maintenance outweighs that IMO


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## mjr (23 Aug 2015)

[QUOTE 3867577, member: 259"]Derailleur gears are dead easy for kids to get to grips with - why bother with hub gears?[/QUOTE]
The points in the opening post are all valid IMO. Have kids' bikes gone the same way as adults' with ever-more fragile and finicky derailleurs?


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## enas (23 Aug 2015)

[QUOTE 3867577, member: 259"]Derailleur gears are dead easy for kids to get to grips with[/QUOTE]

I'm sure they are, I just think that hub gears are easier, for the reasons I've stated in my original post; mostly changing while pedalling or when stopped. I've always seen kids (and adult learners for that matter) systematically stop in too high a gear, struggling to start pedalling again and downshifting while applying full pressure to the pedals.

Also, I'm of the opinion that too many gears are more of a distraction than anything really useful for kids. I like the simplicity of three gears, and I don't think that a three gear hub would cost that much either. They're old and tested technology, and the price difference between the hub gear and derailleur versions of the Cube or Puky models mentioned before suggest that the cost is indeed small...

Of course, this is all pure speculation, and when it comes to my own daughter, it might be the case that I'm making too much of an issue out of this.


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## outlash (23 Aug 2015)

Thing is with hub gears, is that they add a fair bit of weight. Given kids' bikes are often heavy enough already, would adding an extra kilo help matters? Hub geared bikes from my youth (Raleigh Grifter etc etc) tended to weigh around the same as an aircraft carrier.


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## enas (23 Aug 2015)

outlash said:


> Thing is with hub gears, is that they add a fair bit of weight.



But do they? Take for example the 24inch models from Puky. The difference between the 3 speed model and the derailleur model is 400 g... in favour of the 3 speed. Granted, the derailleur comes with a triple front chainring (a heresy!). Only the 7 speed model is a whole kg heavier that the derailleur, 1.4kg more than the 3 speed model. If you take the Pinnacle bikes, the 5 speed model and the derailleur model (which has a single chainring) weigh... the exact same (both 22.4lbs).

This reinforces my feeling that 3 speed hub gears aren't any heavier... Maybe I just identified a gap in the market and I should launch a quality 3 speed kids bike?


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## mjr (23 Aug 2015)

outlash said:


> Thing is with hub gears, is that they add a fair bit of weight. Given kids' bikes are often heavy enough already, would adding an extra kilo help matters? Hub geared bikes from my youth (Raleigh Grifter etc etc) tended to weigh around the same as an aircraft carrier.


I had one of them and I'm fairly sure the heavy weight of the Grifter was in most other parts, not the gear hub. I've seen a few comparisons and the ones which include the whole drivetrain were within a few hundred grammes either way. Only the ones which consider only the wheel tend to claim derailleurs are clear winners, ignoring how their efficiency falls off with chainline and needing cleaning and so on.


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## outlash (23 Aug 2015)

I'll wager whoever wrote Pinnacle's spec sheets are not quite telling the truth, or it's a massive coincidence those bikes are the same weight.


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## User169 (24 Aug 2015)

enas said:


> So, apparently, no UK manufacturer does them, but what about lesser known (in these shores) German or Dutch manufacturers? I would appreciate any hint.



The Dutch brands, Gazelle and Batavus both make kids bikes with three speed hubs gears. My daughter has one of these (Batavus Gabana)..







I prefer hub gears to derailleurs because our bikes are always outside (note chainguard also).


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## mjr (24 Aug 2015)

enas said:


> This reinforces my feeling that 3 speed hub gears aren't any heavier... Maybe I just identified a gap in the market and I should launch a quality 3 speed kids bike?


It would be risky. UK cyclists (and especially bike shops) are still disproportionately racing-inspired and bigoted against hub gears. Of course everyone needs 10% gear steps so they can match the speed of a peloton easily while maintaining optimum cadence at the expense of fiddlier cleaning and adjustment for riding to the shops or park


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## enas (24 Aug 2015)

mjray said:


> It would be risky. UK cyclists (and especially bike shops) are still disproportionately racing-inspired and bigoted against hub gears. Of course everyone needs 10% gear steps so they can match the speed of a peloton easily while maintaining optimum cadence at the expense of fiddlier cleaning and adjustment for riding to the shops or park



Yes, I know what you're saying unfortunately 

On the other hand, we're talking of kids bikes, where considerations tend to differ. As far as I remember, the idea of lightweight quality bikes for kids was unthinkable too, before Islabikes came in, and they've created that market, as far as I can remember. So maybe the hardest step has already been done.

Anyway, I wasn't *really* going to do that (unfortunately, I'm really not an entrepreneurial type of person). The second best option is to try and convince Islabikes that they should do this. Who knows, if I start now, they might have such bikes in two years time (wishful thinking here too) when I'll need it...


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## Milkfloat (24 Aug 2015)

I see young kids bikes as disposable because they grow out of them so fast, so for me it is all about cost. This can be approached in a a couple of ways, buy a bike that won't depreciate much and sell it on after a year or so, or by a BSO and give it away/junk it. I tend to go the BSO route, but staying away from suspension and buying some slick tyres straight away. That way I don't have to bother with a resell, plus I don't have to worry about it being stolen at school. I honestly believe there is no such things as a great young kids bike - even the Isla bike my 8 year old would need is 9.5KG, her BSO is only 1KG heavier and one eighth of the price.

A hub gear would be great, but on the cost side it does not make it practical. When my daughter can fit an XS frame 26" or 700 wheel size then the options will open up considerably.


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## enas (24 Aug 2015)

Milkfloat said:


> I see young kids bikes as disposable because they grow out of them so fast, so for me it is all about cost. This can be approached in a a couple of ways, buy a bike that won't depreciate much and sell it on after a year or so, or by a BSO and give it away/junk it.



This totally makes sense. I personally chose the low depreciation route, since I factor in the pleasure factor too (fully aware that it might only please myself and that my daughter might not care the slightest), and it comes even slightly cheaper than a reasonably usable BSO (but with the extra hassle of reselling).

The fact is that there is a market for Islabikes at the prices they're asking (and some other brands now too), and my point is that 3 speed hubs should fit within those prices and specs (same price, same weight). I remember that Islabikes were seen as bold for offering MTB style kids bikes without useless front suspension, maybe ditching the derailleur is another move in this direction?


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## outlash (24 Aug 2015)

mjray said:


> It would be risky. UK cyclists (and especially bike shops) are still disproportionately racing-inspired and bigoted against hub gears. Of course everyone needs 10% gear steps so they can match the speed of a peloton easily while maintaining optimum cadence at the expense of fiddlier cleaning and adjustment for riding to the shops or park



You really don't like people riding bikes at speed do you?



enas said:


> The fact is that there is a market for Islabikes at the prices they're asking (and some other brands now too), and my point is that 3 speed hubs should fit within those prices and specs (same price, same weight). I remember that Islabikes were seen as bold for offering MTB style kids bikes without useless front suspension, maybe ditching the derailleur is another move in this direction?



Another thing to take into account is cost. A quick google brings up Sturmy Archer 3 speed hubs at around £60 and up. Nexus 3, £45. I recently had to replace the derailleur on my son's Frog Bike, it cost £8.50 (Shimano Tourney). A £300 bike suddenly becomes north of £375 time you factor in the usual retail odds and ends. TBH, Isla, Frog et al have it right IMO. Single chainring at the front and a derailleur at the back. It's cheap, Simple, light and works just like most adults bikes. I don't have a problem with hub gears, I have one myself, but I can't see the advantages for a child's bike.

Why not email Isla & Frog and ask why they don't have a hub gear option?


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## mjr (24 Aug 2015)

outlash said:


> You really don't like people riding bikes at speed do you?


Huh? You can gear your hub as high as you like and I've no problem with that. Indeed, my own three speed is set up for fenland cruising so it's capable of fairly high speeds when I'm with a group that can do that, but the group I mostly tour with is more about going places and sightseeing, rather than going fast and watching back wheels.

A three speed isn't like having three adjacent derailleur gears on most bikes, and comparing replacing only the derailleur to replacing a hub is a bit apples-and-oranges. How much for the cassette, freewheel and chainrings too?


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## outlash (24 Aug 2015)

My apologies, the sneery attitude you appear to give off in the post I quoted must be something I mis-read. 

If a hub gear breaks down, you have to buy a new hub or at least, get it repaired (if that's possible). If your child has to get the whole drivetrain replaced then either they're clocking up a lot of miles (how many do that by the time they grow out of the bike?), or they've had a major off and I'd hazard a guess the bike (and possibly the child) isn't in great condition. I'll stick my neck out and say either of these scenarios don't happen too often.


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## enas (24 Aug 2015)

outlash said:


> Another thing to take into account is cost.[...]
> Why not email Isla & Frog and ask why they don't have a hub gear option?



I've actually done that, so the wisest thing should to wait for their answer if they answer. But it's much funnier (well for me at least) to make some wild guesses.

The 24 inch Pinnacle Aspen's go for £260 and £280 respectively for the 7 speed derailleur and 5 speed hub gear, so that's only a £20 premium (and BTW the hub gear is currently on sale at £252). And that's for a 5 speed Sturmey Archer, not a cheap 3 speed Nexus. A quick Google search found me a full Sturmey Archer kit (hub+cog+shifter+cable+some more bits) for £80 retail price. A somewhat comparable kit (just hub and shifter) for a nexus 3 comes at £52, so that gives some idea of the price difference. Another comparison, this wheel built with a Nexus 3, comes at £56. This doesn't include the shifter, but it includes the rim (and I assume a better than found on Islabikes or Frogs) and a coaster brake. Keeping in mind that those are retail prices and not OEM, this could very well all what's in the £20 price difference between the Pinnacle Aspen's above.

The price difference you give for changing the derailleur is not quite relevant, since you're not comparing like with like. You have to factor in the cost of the hub and the cassette too, as mjray said. If I'm less lazy/more bored, I will try to estimate the price of derailleur+hub+cassette versus hub gear.

But a better point is that with hub gears you wouldn't have had to replace anything, since nothing would have broken  You made precisely my point about derailleurs breaking more easily on kids bikes.


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## enas (24 Aug 2015)

outlash said:


> If a hub gear breaks down, you have to buy a new hub or at least, get it repaired (if that's possible). If your child has to get the whole drivetrain replaced then[...]



Oops I missed this post. I think you misunderstood each other. I understood, and I believe so did mjray, that your point was to say that derailleurs are cheaper than hub gears in general. They are of course, but you'll have to factor in the full kit to make a comparison. As for replacing parts, quite simply a Nexus 3 will never break down, realistically, so here it's £8.50 against £0 in favour of the Nexus 3.


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## mjr (24 Aug 2015)

Repairing a Sturmey Archer hub is usually a case of cheap replacement parts and some fiddly extraction/reassembly, but they are very solid things anyway. Repairing a Shimano hub does appear to be "junk whole thing" offer, which does worry me, but the current ones have a good reliability record.

I'm sorry if it comes across oddly but I get rather tired of a few old legends about hub gears, freewheeling or pedals recirculating and probably write shorter replies than I should sometimes. I'm not one of those suggesting cycling should be slow or that we ought to have to give way to everyone, though: it needs to be fast and fair to be competitive transport IMO.


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## enas (25 Aug 2015)

I got a reply from Islabikes!

They gave me their reasons for not offering hub gears. I hope they don't mind if I reproduce some of them here. First there's weight, and apparently its position in the rear wheel not being suitable. That's one I haven't thought about, and I actually don't quite get it, if someone can enlighten me? Then there's cost: cheap ones are not satisfactory enough, then they become too expensive. Then there's some other reasons which for me boil down to hub gears not being popular with the British market (lack of familiarity, lack of available parts and skills in most bike shops, etc.).

I can sympathise with some of the technical arguments, but I get the feeling the main reason is that they have done their homework and decided there's no market for them, which is fair enough, obviously.

Back to my own question, the more I think about it, the more I feel the Pinnacle 5 speed is actually really nice. It obtained a nice review from road.cc. It's a 24 inch so that means it's a long term plan, so until then, there might be other models or I might have changed my mind completely


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