# The yawning gulf between cyclists and non-cyclists.



## Globalti (27 Jun 2012)

Found myself handing out advice this afternoon to the son of my Pakistan agent, who is in the UK as a student. He has decided 15 minutes is too far for him to walk from halls to college and he wants a car. He's heard from a friend that if you drive on a foreign licence (which he will buy in Karachi) you get cheap insurance.

So there I was disabusing him of a few of his notions and explaining about the importance of insurance and the consequences of having dodgy insurance or fibbing to the insurers, along with a few words on the stupidity of running an old banger.

"So anyway," sez I, " the best thing for someone in your position would be to go and buy a cheap bike!"

Hs shock and disgust were so palpable that even from 200 miles away I could see the sneer on his lips. Bikes are for poor people, not a bright young man around town....


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## Davidc (27 Jun 2012)

Humanity is doomed.

Mass death from obesity.


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## CopperCyclist (27 Jun 2012)

Tell him then that he can only drive on a foreign (non EU) licence from one year from point of entry to the country. This doesn't 'reset' between term times if he reasonably expects to return, and it doesn't start from the moment he gets his licence, it's from when he entered.


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## Kiwiavenger (27 Jun 2012)

Globalti said:


> Found myself handing out advice this afternoon to the son of my Pakistan agent, who is in the UK as a student. He has decided 15 minutes is too far for him to walk from halls to college and he wants a car. He's heard from a friend that if you drive on a foreign licence (which he will buy in Karachi) you get cheap insurance.
> 
> So there I was disabusing him of a few of his notions and explaining about the importance of insurance and the consequences of having dodgy insurance or fibbing to the insurers, along with a few words on the stupidity of running an old banger.
> 
> ...



Just point him towards the lovely carbon jobbies that cost more than a 5 yr old hatch if he thinks it's for the poor! Lol. My bike and accessories cost more than my car!

Sent from my LT15i using Tapatalk 2


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## Ian Cooper (28 Jun 2012)

I always thought that bikes were specifically for 'a bright young person around town', while cars are for angry chav scum, angry rich Jeremy-Clarkson-type scum, people who are too fat or otherwise unfit to cycle, or people who are too stupid to get a home close enough to work to commute by bike.


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## Mad Doug Biker (28 Jun 2012)

Without trying to sound funny here, is it just a cultural thing? I mean, back in Pakistan, have his parents been able to drive him round everywhere, whilst the the poorer people he has been told to avoid ride bikes, therefore he really does associate cycling with peasants and other perceived unsavoury types who are out to do nasty things to him?
With the amount of Poverty and unbelievable wealth all in one place, there must be a much wider gulf between the haves and have nots there than here, creating a feeling among some of the middle/upper classes that they really ARE superior? Would being seen with a bike really be so below him? A social prestige thing?


Just a thought and I expect I'll be shot down in flames at any given moment. Nihal, what do you think?


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## ufkacbln (28 Jun 2012)

Uncle Mort said:


> From vague memories of being that age, a car is much better if you're on the pull.


... and what is wrong with a tandem?


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## Globalti (28 Jun 2012)

Mad Doug Biker said:


> Without trying to sound funny here, is it just a cultural thing? I mean, back in Pakistan, have his parents been able to drive him round everywhere, whilst the the poorer people he has been told to avoid ride bikes, therefore he really does associate cycling with peasants and other perceived unsavoury types who are out to do nasty things to him?
> With the amount of Poverty and unbelievable wealth all in one place, there must be a much wider gulf between the haves and have nots there than here, creating a feeling among some of the middle/upper classes that they really ARE superior? Would being seen with a bike really be so below him? A social prestige thing?
> Just a thought and I expect I'll be shot down in flames at any given moment. Nihal, what do you think?


 
You're spot on of course, but I was hoping that after nearly a year living in the UK the lad would have absorbed at least some of the student culture and way of thinking. However it seems that there are students and there are students.....


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## defy-one (28 Jun 2012)

My parents are from India,came here to work and eventually settle in the late 50's
Cycling up until 1990 was the standard mode of travel for short journeys,after that came the scooter or motorbike,in the last 10 years or so the car has become affordable to even middle income families and the bike is no longer seen as a mode of transport for anyone but the poor. I imagine it's similar in Pakistan


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## Mike5537 (28 Jun 2012)

Tell him he is wrong about the insurance, I work for several well known insurance companies and if you have a foreign license the price is crazy, they are rarely accepted by most underwriters and the ones that do charge thousands! With what he would pay for insurance over the year he could buy himself a Madone! 

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


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## Dan151 (28 Jun 2012)

My bike cost more than my car!


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## ColinJ (28 Jun 2012)

Uncle Mort said:


> From vague memories of being that age, a car is much better if you're on the pull.


Not if you are trying to pull a cyclist! I know lots of couples who got together through cycling ...


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## Crackle (28 Jun 2012)

Cunobelin said:


> ... and what is wrong with a tandem?


You're limited to girls called Daisy


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## Night Train (28 Jun 2012)

Mad Doug Biker said:


> Without trying to sound funny here, is it just a cultural thing?


Possibly. Both here and in other countries there are groups of people who, culturally, look at material assets as a symbol of wealth and success. The cost of the asset isn't always related to its value or worth.

My parents grew up seeing bicycles as something poor people used because they couldn't afford a car, both as children in the far east and as young adults in the UK.
Even now they only really see cycling as something children do, or adults do for 5 minutes for a bit of a laugh and some fun, and not as a mode of transport for any purpose if you can afford a car. They also see a bicycle that costs more then, say £100, to be a waste of money and a foolish extravagance. They humour me when I say I am out on the bike. My Dad has a bike and the extents of his cycling would be up and down the road outside for a laugh.


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## tyred (28 Jun 2012)

Uncle Mort said:


> From vague memories of being that age, a car is much better if you're on the pull.


 
Indeed. A car has a nice comfy back seat and can inconveniently run out of petrol in the middle of nowhere


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## ufkacbln (28 Jun 2012)

tyred said:


> Indeed. A car has a nice comfy back seat and can inconveniently run out of petrol in the middle of nowhere


 
This also has a backseat and can inconveniently break down


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## Dayvo (28 Jun 2012)

Crackle said:


> You're limited to girls called Daisy


 
And boys called Sue.


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## defy-one (28 Jun 2012)

Looks like a motor-rickshaw

... Back to the OP


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## Peteaud (28 Jun 2012)

Ian Cooper said:


> I or people who are too stupid to get a home close enough to work to commute by bike.


 
Can you give me a mortgage then, none of the banks will, or perhaps the fact that i got off my arse and found a job makes me stupid. Perhaps i should go back on the dole until a local job comes along. Some of us have to commute, I dont like it, and have applied for many local jobs without success.


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## Rob500 (28 Jun 2012)

Uncle Mort said:


> From vague memories of being that age, a car is much better if you're on the pull.


True. At that age a bike doesn't really make it as a vaginal lodestone.


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## gbb (28 Jun 2012)

Ian Cooper said:


> I always thought that bikes were specifically for 'a bright young person around town', while cars are for angry chav scum, angry rich Jeremy-Clarkson-type scum, people who are too fat or otherwise unfit to cycle, or people who are too stupid to get a home close enough to work to commute by bike.


 


Peteaud said:


> Can you give me a mortgage then, none of the banks will, or perhaps the fact that i got off my arse and found a job makes me stupid. Perhaps i should go back on the dole until a local job comes along. Some of us have to commute, I dont like it, and have applied for many local jobs without success.


 
Me too....
I'm sure (or i hope) you don't really think like that IC....
Sadly, circumstances in life dictate some of us do need a car. After commuting by bike for the best part of 30 years, circumstances dictate (much to my disgust) that i have to commute by car now. Mind i've mitigated that by part cycling, part driving whenever i can. 15 miles cycling, 26 miles driving each day i can.
Like Pete, some of us do whats neccessary and right, for everyones benefit.

Anyway...back to the topic...
I don't see it as a bad thing, (the desire to drive, especially when you're young)..its something 99% of us did.
Sometimes you have to remind yourself, the person you're slating...was you 30 years ago. I remember looking at a young guy in his souped up hatch with ridiculously big exhaust etc etc, thinking WTF do you look like. Then i remembered, i WAS that person 30 years ago.

Another angle...my son (at 27) has never learned to drive. No desire to, too expensive, punishingly so. The downside (IMO) is he's living a stunted lifestyle, very localised.


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## xpc316e (28 Jun 2012)

Let him do as he wishes. Young people must be given the chance to make bad decisions and fail, otherwise they do not learn. I can see the reasons behind his way of thinking, but he needs to experience the 'joys' of motoring.


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## gbb (28 Jun 2012)

xpc316e said:


> Let him do as he wishes. Young people must be given the chance to make bad decisions and fail, otherwise they do not learn. I can see the reasons behind his way of thinking, but he needs to experience the 'joys' of motoring.


 Its interesting the assumption by many that driving is a bad thing...period.
I consider myself a cyclist first above all else, but i own a car and reap the benefits it gives me (freedom to go where i want, when i want, as far as i want)...as well as the drawbacks (cost etc)
Without a driving licence i doubt i'd have progressed as far as i have in my working life...i'd have been limited early on to jobs within my locality. For better or worse, its helped makes you what you are, what you become.
Do i enjoy owning a car..no. Its a tool.
Could i do without one...maybe.
Would i want to...no.

Anyway...WhoTF are we to be pontificating about what another person can do, something which is quite legal, something 99% of people on this forum have done ourselves i should think.


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## Smokin Joe (28 Jun 2012)

Why don't we just accept that most of the population don't like cycling. They'll go over the park with the kids on a sunny bank holiday but that's about it, they find using a bike for transport is a chore.

We enjoy riding a bike, most people don't, just as most people don't enjoy playing tennis or rugby or jogging or whatever hobby or sport you care to mention. And face up to the fact that most Asian and Caribbean people think people who cycle from choice are nuts.


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## Boris Bajic (28 Jun 2012)

+1 to gbb above (and others who've expressed that sentiment).

I worked for years in the Balkans and often cycled to my office. In Sarajevo that was most unusual and a neighbour regularly joked with me about saving up for a car. To him, it was absurd to cycle when you could drive. He had a point, but I loved cycling.

Most cyclists I know are also drivers. Some (and clearly some on this forum) are very keen drivers.

Each to their own. Some of the harping on this and other forums about how ghastly cars are is amusingly harmless eccentricity, but sound like someone hoping to bleat at the right pitch to the right audience about imagined slights and injustices they feel safe mentioning among friends.

Would I live car-free if I thought I could? I might well and it may yet become a necessity. Meanwhile, I'll keep driving and let others worry about their own choices.

My bikes are still in the back of my car after taking middle child to a TT. Couldn't have done that without a car.


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## defy-one (28 Jun 2012)

I love my car,i love my bike. I don't care what people think of my choices.


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## al78 (28 Jun 2012)

defy-one said:


> I love my car,i love my bike. I don't care what people think of my choices.


 
It would be a good idea to at least think about the wider impact of your lifestyle choices though. If people don't do that then we are all basically on a one way ticket to social collapse.


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## slowmotion (28 Jun 2012)

I'm genuinely curious as to how and when the miserablist anti-car lobby attempted to kidnap innocent cyclists and press-gang them into the cause. When was it?


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## defy-one (29 Jun 2012)

al78 said:


> It would be a good idea to at least think about the wider impact of your lifestyle choices though. If people don't do that then we are all basically on a one way ticket to social collapse.



My lifestyle?
I need a car to do my work,when possible i use the bike as a way of getting fit,saving on diesel and above all,because i love the sense of freedom - thats it


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## lukesdad (29 Jun 2012)

Who gives a..........


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## Dan151 (29 Jun 2012)

Ian Cooper said:


> I always thought that bikes were specifically for 'a bright young person around town', while cars are for angry chav scum, angry rich Jeremy-Clarkson-type scum, people who are too fat or otherwise unfit to cycle, or people who are too stupid to get a home close enough to work to commute by bike.



I'd love to work close to home but I'd be on half the money. Maybe if it bothered you that much that people work to far away from work that they can't cycle there, you could find everyone jobs near their homes. You could Potentially sort out Britain's employment problem......


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## RhythMick (29 Jun 2012)

Kiwiavenger said:


> Sent from my LT15i using Tapatalk 2



Beware the "signature police" ... I drew some unfriendly sneers from a member with that sig ... :-) ...

You know who you are ... :-D


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## Moodyman (29 Jun 2012)

Mad Doug Biker said:


> Without trying to sound funny here, is it just a cultural thing? I mean, back in Pakistan, have his parents been able to drive him round everywhere, whilst the the poorer people he has been told to avoid ride bikes, therefore he really does associate cycling with peasants and other perceived unsavoury types who are out to do nasty things to him?
> With the amount of Poverty and unbelievable wealth all in one place, there must be a much wider gulf between the haves and have nots there than here, creating a feeling among some of the middle/upper classes that they really ARE superior? Would being seen with a bike really be so below him? A social prestige thing?
> 
> 
> Just a thought and I expect I'll be shot down in flames at any given moment. Nihal, what do you think?


 
I'm of South Asian descent and yes, I can affirm that cycling is seen as a peasant's mode of transport in Pakistan/India.

Even amongst the British Asian community, cycling is an exercise/leisure activity at most.

My wife, also of S Asian descent, tells all her friends that I catch a train to work. She daren't tell them I cycle.

When people (other Asians) find out that I cycle, they always ask why? They can't understand that someone in a white collar, well remunerated job would cycle to work when he has a car at home.


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## lulubel (29 Jun 2012)

Peteaud said:


> Can you give me a mortgage then, none of the banks will, or perhaps the fact that i got off my arse and found a job makes me stupid. Perhaps i should go back on the dole until a local job comes along. Some of us have to commute, I dont like it, and have applied for many local jobs without success.


 
You don't have to get a mortgage to move home. I know renting isn't socially acceptable in a lot of circles, but the freedom it gives you has to be experienced to be appreciated, I think.


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## defy-one (29 Jun 2012)

lulubel said:


> You don't have to get a mortgage to move home. I know renting isn't socially acceptable in a lot of circles, but the freedom it gives you has to be experienced to be appreciated, I think.




Another Asian thought - we prefer to own our own houses!


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## Linford (29 Jun 2012)

Cunobelin said:


> ... and what is wrong with a tandem?


 
Nothing if you are well into your 50's and past caring about street cred


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## lulubel (29 Jun 2012)

defy-one said:


> Another Asian thought - we prefer to own our own houses!


 
So do most British people, which was kind of my point. My father spent years trying to convince me to buy a house with a mortgage and "settle down" rather than renting, which he considers to be throwing money away. But renting has given me the freedom to just up and go at short notice whenever I want to, and to live in places (Spain, for example) that I wouldn't have been able to otherwise.

It also meant I could go where the work was, back when that was important to me.


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## Boris Bajic (29 Jun 2012)

Ian Cooper said:


> I always thought that bikes were specifically for 'a bright young person around town', while cars are for angry chav scum, angry rich Jeremy-Clarkson-type scum, people who are too fat or otherwise unfit to cycle, or people who are too stupid to get a home close enough to work to commute by bike.


 
Do I recall you mentioning that your wife drives a car?

I'm sure she'd be keen to know which of your stereotypes you think fits her best.


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## Smokin Joe (29 Jun 2012)

Some of the comments posted here could turn me into a cyclist hater too.


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## ColinJ (29 Jun 2012)

Smokin Joe said:


> Some of the comments posted here could turn me into a cyclist hater too.


Just wait until they start talking about people who smoke in their cars ...!


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## Peteaud (29 Jun 2012)

ColinJ said:


> Just wait until they start talking about people who smoke in their cars ...!


 
Or just smokers


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## Boris Bajic (29 Jun 2012)

ColinJ said:


> Just wait until they start talking about people who smoke in their cars ...!


 
Smoking in Cars is the new Driving while Smoking.

Or it will be when the people who drive cars and smoke stop doing the last thing that used to be the old Driving while Smoking, which was pretending to know about WMD you didn't know about and indeed knew not to be a threat in the way you pretended to believe you thought it might very well be.

I think the key thing here is to distill, trim and edit the message in such a way that it rolls off the tongue.

I'll get my coat.

Again.


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## Mad Doug Biker (29 Jun 2012)

lulubel said:


> So do most British people, which was kind of my point. My father spent years trying to convince me to buy a house with a mortgage and "settle down" rather than renting, which he considers to be throwing money away. But renting has given me the freedom to just up and go at short notice whenever I want to, and to live in places (Spain, for example) that I wouldn't have been able to otherwise.
> 
> It also meant I could go where the work was, back when that was important to me.



A bit different, but apparently in Italy hardly anyone actually owns their own house, everything is rented. That'll be why half of Italy looks like a dump then..... 



I'll get me coat and run before Pat sees this.


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## lulubel (29 Jun 2012)

Mad Doug Biker said:


> A bit different, but apparently in Italy hardly anyone actually owns their own house, everything is rented. That'll be why half of Italy looks like a dump then..... .


 
Does it? Probably no more of a dump than some of the areas in the UK that I looked at when I _was_ looking at buying. Before I realised I could get a lot more house for my money and live in a much more salubrious area by renting instead.


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## Mad Doug Biker (29 Jun 2012)

lulubel said:


> Does it? Probably no more of a dump than some of the areas in the UK that I looked at when I _was_ looking at buying. Before I realised I could get a lot more house for my money and live in a much more salubrious area by renting instead.



Italy just looks run down, everything is so old looking!.... Actually, cross over the border from Switzerland or Austria and you can just about see the point on the border where the buildings change..... and the graffiti appears too.


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## Smokin Joe (29 Jun 2012)

Some financial guru was quoted by the BBC this week as saying that over the course of a lifetime renting will cost the average person around £200,000 more than owning.

I've lived mortgage free for eleven years now and for the decade before that I only had a very small mortgage.


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## Peteaud (29 Jun 2012)

Renting is the way of the tory advice

Rich buys house to rent to the poor.
Rich banks wont lend to poor
Poor have to rent, this keeps them poor
Rich get richer

This is the way of the Tory, here endeth the lesson.


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## Smokin Joe (29 Jun 2012)

Peteaud said:


> Renting is the way of the tory advice
> 
> Rich buys house to rent to the poor.
> Rich banks wont lend to poor
> ...


Remind me, which party was it who gave council tenants the right to buy?


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## Peteaud (29 Jun 2012)

Smokin Joe said:


> Remind me, which party was it who gave council tenants the right to buy?


 
And how many got sold at massive profit, creating the price boom.
You dont get something for nothing.


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## Smokin Joe (29 Jun 2012)

Peteaud said:


> And how many got sold at massive profit, creating the price boom.
> You dont get something for nothing.


Quite, but what I said still stands.


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## Peteaud (29 Jun 2012)

Smokin Joe said:


> Quite, but what I said still stands.


 
True.


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## lulubel (29 Jun 2012)

Smokin Joe said:


> Some financial guru was quoted by the BBC this week as saying that over the course of a lifetime renting will cost the average person around £200,000 more than owning.


 
But I'd happily pay £200,000 more over the course of my lifetime to be free to live where I want, rather than having bought a house I didn't really like (but was all I could afford) in a location I didn't really like (but was all I could afford), and to now be trapped there because I can't sell it. If I spent 50 years living independently, that only works out to £4,000 a year, which is a small price to pay for freedom.

If you happened to be in fortunate position of being able to buy the house you wanted in the location you wanted (and you still want to be there), that's great for you. But home ownership is a compromise for most people, and I'm not prepared to make that compromise for the sake of a little bit of land that I can't take with me when I die.


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## al78 (29 Jun 2012)

lulubel said:


> But I'd happily pay £200,000 more over the course of my lifetime to be free to live where I want, rather than having bought a house I didn't really like (but was all I could afford) in a location I didn't really like (but was all I could afford), and to now be trapped there because I can't sell it. If I spent 50 years living independently, that only works out to £4,000 a year, which is a small price to pay for freedom.
> 
> If you happened to be in fortunate position of being able to buy the house you wanted in the location you wanted (and you still want to be there), that's great for you. But home ownership is a compromise for most people, and I'm not prepared to make that compromise for the sake of a little bit of land that I can't take with me when I die.


 
You would only be trapped there if you go into negative equity, the risk of which reduces the larger the deposit you put down.


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## Ian Cooper (29 Jun 2012)

gbb said:


> I'm sure (or i hope) you don't really think like that IC....


 
Actually, I pretty much do think that. Though my true feelings are a bit more nuanced. But most motorists easily fit the bill. After all, some folks live within easy cycling distance of work and amenities (sometimes within just a few hundred yards), yet they still drive. These lazy people sicken me. They are often so unfit and there are so many of them that they increase my health insurance costs, they use up our natural resources and pollute unnecessarily, they clog up the roads and create vast parking lots in downtown areas that are essentially mini-deserts - wastelands of asphalt. It's disgusting! At best, these folks are a drag on the system; at worst, they are a cancer.

And when it comes to living close to work, no one's forcing anyone to buy a house - there are many rentals very close to workplaces. I just finished renting in a house close to downtown - stayed there for 2 1/2 years - finally found a house for sale at a reasonable price and where I needed it to be. Anyway, I live in the US, where it is mostly true that all car drivers are obese yobbos and yobettes with a vast sense of entitlement and/or a lot more money than sense. Maybe that's not so much the case in the UK, but my opinions surely apply to many - perhaps most - drivers there too. I'm not suggesting everyone meets my characterization, but too many do.

The problem a lot of people are having right now is that we are living at a time when suburbia and home ownership have been pushed, for 50 years or more, as the utopian ideal. And it would have kept being so if the economy hadn't tanked. Now those who bought into the ideal are stuck way out in the Styx with petrol prices going through the roof, with more money owed to their mortgages than their houses are worth, and therefore with no way to sell. It is not my fault that they couldn't see that they were buying into a scam - a housing pyramid scheme. I could see this problem coming back in the 1990s, and I'm no economic genius, so it's not as if it was some difficult-to-see issue. I decided back then that buying into suburbia was a fools game.

Anyway, getting back to the OP's post, I think there are two yawning gulfs - one between cyclists and non-cyclists and another between cyclists and motorists who own a bike. After all, many motorists occasionally cycle and therefore believe themselves to be cyclists. These are the same sorts of folks as those people who volunteer to pick up trash in the park for two hours and suddenly think they're environmentalists.


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## Boris Bajic (30 Jun 2012)

Ian Cooper said:


> ... Anyway, getting back to the OP's post, I think there are two yawning gulfs - one between cyclists and non-cyclists and another between cyclists and motorists who own a bike. *After all, many motorists occasionally cycle and therefore believe themselves to be cyclists*. These are the same sorts of folks as those people who volunteer to pick up trash in the park for two hours and suddenly think they're environmentalists.


 
This is a most unusual sentiment. Anyone who cycles is a cyclist. Ownership or use of a car does not prevent one from being a cyclist.

Many (most?) cyclists make no link between their love of bicycles and environmntalism. I certainly do not. 

You state elsewhere that your wife drives a car, yet the vitriol you pour on drivers is fairly unfettered.

The definitions you seem to be choosing appear to be born of your own imagination or prejudices. I may be wrong.

I am a motorist and a cyclist. I am not an envoronmentalist. None of my cycling friends would describe themselves as an environmentalist.

I find your posts hugely entertaining, in part because they are so far from anything I recognise as rational. I may be wrong.

I'm still waiting for replies to questions I posed after earlier anti-car posts from you:

1: Do you derive any benefit from the fact that your wife drives a car?

2. Of the several fairly ugly and damning stereotypes you heaped upon car drivers, which best fits your wife, who you say is a driver?

It's great fun to hold strong opinions on an Internet forum, but credibility is dependent in some way on consistency.


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## lulubel (30 Jun 2012)

al78 said:


> You would only be trapped there if you go into negative equity, the risk of which reduces the larger the deposit you put down.


 
That's true. But if you have to sell your house for considerably less than you paid for it, effectively losing a hefty chunk of your desposit, you end up financially worse off than you would have been if you'd rented for that time and just kept the money in the bank.

The only reason buying a house makes sense to me is:

a) if you know you want to stay there for a long time, possibly the rest of your life
b) the market is stable, so you can be confident of getting back at least what you put in if you sell
c) house prices are rising rapidly, and you're a speculator willing to take the risk that the bubble will burst before you sell

None of those have ever applied to me, so I've been careful to not fall into the "must buy my own house" trap.


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## gbb (30 Jun 2012)

lulubel said:


> That's true. But if you have to sell your house for considerably less than you paid for it, effectively losing a hefty chunk of your desposit, you end up financially worse off than you would have been if you'd rented for that time and just kept the money in the bank.
> 
> The only reason buying a house makes sense to me is:
> 
> ...


 The truth is, as always, somewhere in the middle.
Everyones needs are different.
I brought my house, thanks to the Tories at a massive discount. I now benefit from a very low mortgage and am hugely better off than if i'd rented. Unlike so many others, i didnt take extra, remortgage etc etc...ive seen so many lose their houses as a result of that decision.
True, it is a mare selling and moving, expensive too. I always worked close to home, but circumstances now mean i have to travel 20 miles each way. I could sell with all the problems that incurs and move closer, but i dont want to anyway, my family are ALL in my locality.
Anyway, i could move closer to work....but who's to say that in a years time, i wont be out of work again and doing the same in reverse. No doubt, this is where renting has a plus side.

Long term ?...i dont care if the prices go up and down, i'm only concerned with how much it costs me each month. Having got through the first 5 years, ive been in progressively more and more in pocket ever since..

Plusses and minuses..(is that spelt right ? )...


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## gbb (30 Jun 2012)

Ian Cooper said:


> Actually, I pretty much do think that. Though my true feelings are a bit more nuanced. But most motorists easily fit the bill. After all, some folks live within easy cycling distance of work and amenities (sometimes within just a few hundred yards), yet they still drive. These lazy people sicken me. They are often so unfit and there are so many of them that they increase my health insurance costs, they use up our natural resources and pollute unnecessarily, they clog up the roads and create vast parking lots in downtown areas that are essentially mini-deserts - wastelands of asphalt. It's disgusting! At best, these folks are a drag on the system; at worst, they are a cancer.
> 
> And when it comes to living close to work, no one's forcing anyone to buy a house - there are many rentals very close to workplaces. I just finished renting in a house close to downtown - stayed there for 2 1/2 years - finally found a house for sale at a reasonable price and where I needed it to be. Anyway, I live in the US, where it is mostly true that all car drivers are obese yobbos and yobettes with a vast sense of entitlement and/or a lot more money than sense. Maybe that's not so much the case in the UK, but my opinions surely apply to many - perhaps most - drivers there too. I'm not suggesting everyone meets my characterization, but too many do.
> 
> ...


 TBF, i can see your sentiments. As always, you can make a statement and it can get taken literally or personally, rather than the generalisation its (i assume) meant to be...and a fair generalisation in some respects.


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## Nigel-YZ1 (30 Jun 2012)

Ian Cooper said:


> ... Anyway, getting back to the OP's post, I think there are two yawning gulfs - one between cyclists and non-cyclists and another between cyclists and motorists who own a bike. After all, many motorists occasionally cycle and therefore believe themselves to be cyclists. These are the same sorts of folks as those people who volunteer to pick up trash in the park for two hours and suddenly think they're environmentalists.


 
Does anyone want to tell me that for me cycling is a token effort? That I don't take it seriously?

Motorist who owns a bike? Bullshit. No-one has the right to label me.

There is no yawning gulf. There are just occasional bigots that like to dole out labels and sit in judgement. Or pick apart Cyclechat posts to eek that last bit of victory out of a single phrase.

Perhaps I'm missing the point and some people just believe that: cyclist = environmental campaigning god.

Now I'm valeting the car today, so I'm gonna go to Halfords at Cortonwood for some cleaner, *on the bike*. Have a nice day


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## Mad Doug Biker (30 Jun 2012)

Uncle Mort said:


> Actually, Italy usually comes out as having some of the highest home ownership figures in the world - higher than the UK or Switzerland or Germany. I was very surprised about this as well!.



Just going on what Italian friends told us. Must have got my facts mixed up. HOWEVER, if everything is owned, then that makes the over all general state of the buildings even worse!


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## Mugshot (30 Jun 2012)

Ian Cooper said:


> I always thought that bikes were specifically for 'a bright young person around town', while cars are for angry chav scum, angry rich Jeremy-Clarkson-type scum, people who are too fat or otherwise unfit to cycle, or people who are too stupid to get a home close enough to work to commute by bike.





Ian Cooper said:


> Blah..Blah..etc and so on....Anyway, getting back to the OP's post, I think there are two yawning gulfs - one between cyclists and non-cyclists and another between cyclists and motorists who own a bike. After all, many motorists occasionally cycle and therefore believe themselves to be cyclists. These are the same sorts of folks as those people who volunteer to pick up trash in the park for two hours and suddenly think they're environmentalists.


I, and it would appear many others here, own various vehicles, amongst them several push bikes, I cycle to work every day and I cycle back home again too. Except on a Sunday when I come in at the same time as my wife and we both come in the van, a nice big white one.
I'd like to think of you red in the face, frothing at the mouth with the raw hatred you feel towards motorists, which it would appear means anybody who has the audacity to stand too near to a motorised vehicle, I say I'd like to think of you this way because I actually believe you to be a troll, entertainingly so, but still a troll


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## Mugshot (30 Jun 2012)

Crackle said:


> You're limited to girls called Daisy


 
Could be worse


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## Nigel-YZ1 (30 Jun 2012)

Mugshot said:


> Could be worse
> View attachment 10485


 
 



BTW 3 for 2 on AutoGlym stuff at Halfords


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## al78 (30 Jun 2012)

Mugshot said:


> I, and it would appear many others here, own various vehicles, amongst them several push bikes, I cycle to work every day and I cycle back home again too. Except on a Sunday when I come in at the same time as my wife and we both come in the van, a nice big white one.
> I'd like to think of you red in the face, frothing at the mouth with the raw hatred you feel towards motorists, which it would appear means anybody who has the audacity to stand too near to a motorised vehicle, I say I'd like to think of you this way because I actually believe you to be a troll, entertainingly so, but still a troll


 
If he is a troll, it would be an odd way to troll, posing anti-motorist vitriol on a cycling newsgroup. Surely if he was attempting to be as annoying as a wasp at a summer picnic he would take it to a motoring newsgroup.


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## ufkacbln (30 Jun 2012)

Linford said:


> Nothing if you are well into your 50's and past caring about street cred


 
We used to do alright as kids!
The funniest thing was that those of us with bikes were often more popular as we had more disposable income and were als see as more sensible!


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## Mugshot (30 Jun 2012)

al78 said:


> If he is a troll, it would be an odd way to troll, posing anti-motorist vitriol on a cycling newsgroup. Surely if he was attempting to be as annoying as a wasp at a summer picnic he would take it to a motoring newsgroup.


It's not always black and white al, it can be far more intelligent and subtle than that and is, when performed with skill and cunning, very entertaining


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## al78 (30 Jun 2012)

lulubel said:


> You don't have to get a mortgage to move home. I know renting isn't socially acceptable in a lot of circles, but the freedom it gives you has to be experienced to be appreciated, I think.


 
It is nothing to do with being socially acceptable but more to do with not wishing to pay out significant sums of money month after month after month with nothing to show for it at the end.

I can see the point of renting if you move around a lot but not if you are looking to settle in one area for a long time and can afford a mortgage.


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## srw (30 Jun 2012)

gbb said:


> The truth is, as always, somewhere in the middle.
> Everyones needs are different.
> I brought my house, thanks to the Tories at a massive discount. I


In other words you own a house that the rest of us have subsidised.


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## srw (30 Jun 2012)

Mad Doug Biker said:


> Just going on what Italian friends told us. Must have got my facts mixed up. HOWEVER, if everything is owned, then that makes the over all general state of the buildings even worse!


It's a cultural thing. We're obsessed with status, expressed by a tidy house (unlike the Italians) and car (unlike the French).


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## Mad Doug Biker (30 Jun 2012)

They are just obsessed with food, Coffee, mobile phones and family instead?


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## lulubel (30 Jun 2012)

al78 said:


> It is nothing to do with being socially acceptable but more to do with not wishing to pay out significant sums of money month after month after month with nothing to show for it at the end.
> 
> I can see the point of renting if you move around a lot but not if you are looking to settle in one area for a long time and can afford a mortgage.


 
At the end, you die. And you can't take it with you.

We could have bought the last house we lived in, but I'm glad we chose to rent it instead. In July last year, our income dropped by a third. If we'd bought the house, we would have had to try and sell (unlikely in the present housing market) and would have ended up unable to pay the mortgage, having our home reposessed and losing the money we'd put down as deposit. As it was, we downsized and halved our rent with no loss of capital.

I can see the value of owning your home outright, and I would buy if I could do this even if the house or location wasn't ideal, because even if you lose all your income, you still have a roof over your head. But in the current economic climate, I think renting actually offers more security than buying with a mortgage because, if you can't pay the rent, you can just hand in your month's notice and move somewhere cheaper.


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## gbb (30 Jun 2012)

srw said:


> In other words you own a house that the rest of us have subsidised.


 What can i say ...i took advantage of an opportunity to buy, i couldnt have possibly have brought a house any other way.
Truth is, its now working against whats good for all, not just in the sense of the original loss of housing stock in the first place, but because most or many of those houses in my area are now brought by private landlords. Now that brings another whole raft of problems...
Multiple occupancy, too many cars, not enough parking spaces.
While the landlord will initially spend on the internals of the house, the fences, exterior of the house and shrubbery dont get a look at...and they're deteriorating and spoiling everything because the landlords only interested in making profit.
There's been a rise in people from these houses dumping their rubbish in the area for collection by the binmen...but the binmen wont take it because its not in bins, or not in the right place etc etc. They're short term residents, who dont care about how the place looks.
Freekin private landlords, mind the councils not much better. They cant be trusted to do a proper job on street repairs etc...


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## Nihal (1 Jul 2012)

Mad Doug Biker said:


> Just a thought and I expect I'll be shot down in flames at any given moment. Nihal, what do you think?


 
Sorry,me just saw this thread you see.On your question,id just say that guys definately gone crazy.Biking is way cooler than sitting in a stupid car.What you say is actually true,I'm sure he was driven in a car all the time.But now since i started cycling here,not only are "poor"people cycling but i can actually see a lot of people commuting to work on a bike in the morning,who are not so poor.I also know that a CEO of not such a big company commutes to work on his cycle,whatever be the weather be.And people with cars,bikes....are choosing to comute in cycles.Hope one day,there'll be as many cyclists here as in the West,that's one thing we should learn from it


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## Ian Cooper (1 Jul 2012)

Mugshot said:


> ...I actually believe you to be a troll, entertainingly so, but still a troll


 
I own a cycling blog at www.ianbrettcooper.blogspot.com There, you can see more of my opinions, if you want to figure out whether I'm being honest here. I think you'll find they illustrate that what I've written here reflects my true beliefs. My two posts on 'Bike to Work Day' probably best illustrate points I've been making here.


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## lulubel (1 Jul 2012)

Ian Cooper said:


> I own a cycling blog


 
I just read some of your blog. "Honking can be helpful" gave me a laugh to start the day.


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## Nigel-YZ1 (1 Jul 2012)

Ian Cooper said:


> I own a cycling blog at www.ianbrettcooper.blogspot.com There, you can see more of my opinions, if you want to figure out whether I'm being honest here. I think you'll find they illustrate that what I've written here reflects my true beliefs. My two posts on 'Bike to Work Day' probably best illustrate points I've been making here.


 
I don't think you're a troll.

Your opinions just happen to be expressed quite strongly and without much area for compromise.
I don't agree with the stronger stuff you say (cars being the vehicle of the devil etc) as my experience is not so.
But what's the point of having a forum without opinions? At least you have the strength of conviction to say things that some will react strongly to.
I'd rather have a robust discussion than sit here complimenting the green of someone's Bianchi.

Anyway, since when do us Yorkshiremen sit quietly by like blushing violets!


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## Mugshot (1 Jul 2012)

Ian Cooper said:


> I own a cycling blog at www.ianbrettcooper.blogspot.com There, you can see more of my opinions, if you want to figure out whether I'm being honest here. I think you'll find they illustrate that what I've written here reflects my true beliefs. My two posts on 'Bike to Work Day' probably best illustrate points I've been making here.


Thank you Ian, I shall certainly have a read


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## Linford (1 Jul 2012)

Ian Cooper said:


> And when it comes to living close to work, no one's forcing anyone to buy a house - there are many rentals very close to workplaces. I just finished renting in a house close to downtown - stayed there for 2 1/2 years - finally found a house for sale at a reasonable price and where I needed it to be. Anyway, I live in the US, where it is mostly true that all car drivers are obese yobbos and yobettes with a vast sense of entitlement and/or a lot more money than sense. Maybe that's not so much the case in the UK, but my opinions surely apply to many - perhaps most - drivers there too. I'm not suggesting everyone meets my characterization, but too many do.


 
The dynamic of the american workforce is much more so than that of the UK If I take my mates word for it (he owns 5 houses in Ohio which he rents out) 

They rent and are much more happy to up sticks and move where the work is. Properties are also much more spread out over there than the UK and also the weather suffers more extremes than here, so people will use cars to both buy time in the commute, and not get to work dripping with sweat or frozen to the bars.


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## Matthew_T (1 Jul 2012)

There was a lad on my college course who was from Afganistan. For his 18th birthday, he parents sent him £5,000 for the party.He was never in the lectures more than 3 consecutive times though and apparenlty his visa ran out just a while ago and he was deported?


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## Mugshot (1 Jul 2012)

Matthew_T said:


> There was a lad on my college course who was from Afganistan. For his 18th birthday, he parents sent him £5,000 for the party.He was never in the lectures more than 3 consecutive times though and apparenlty his visa ran out just a while ago and he was deported?


Did he cycle?


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## Ian Cooper (1 Jul 2012)

Nigel-YZ1 said:


> Anyway, since when do us Yorkshiremen sit quietly by like blushing violets!


 
This is undoubtedly true.


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## Matthew_T (1 Jul 2012)

Mugshot said:


> Did he cycle?


No, he just got the local bus.


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## al78 (1 Jul 2012)

lulubel said:


> At the end, you die. And you can't take it with you.


 
More likely, at the end you sell it to pay for the care home.


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## RhythMick (1 Jul 2012)

Ian Cooper said:


> Anyway, getting back to the OP's post, I think there are two yawning gulfs - one between cyclists and non-cyclists and another between cyclists and motorists who own a bike. After all, many motorists occasionally cycle and therefore believe themselves to be cyclists. These are the same sorts of folks as those people who volunteer to pick up trash in the park for two hours and suddenly think they're environmentalists.



Oh dear I was so close to agreeing with at least what I think is the sentiment behind your post, even if the rhetoric got carried away a bit.

I probably don't cycle as much as you, but I'll carry on calling myself a cyclist if that's ok. And I pick up trash regularly, mine and other people's, when I'm out with my dog or just on walks. You seem to think that's something to sneer at. Should we publish league tables ? How much trash do you pick ? How much do you create in the first place? How much do you recycle, or better reuse ? 

My point is that's a negative and self-defeating argument. People should always feel better about the contributions they make, the trick is motivating people to use less and clear up more.

Oh dear I fell into my own rhetoric ...


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## Ian Cooper (1 Jul 2012)

RhythMick said:


> Oh dear I was so close to agreeing with at least what I think is the sentiment behind your post, even if the rhetoric got carried away a bit...


 
It would be a sad day indeed if anyone agreed with what anyone else thinks. What would there be to discuss?


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## Smokin Joe (1 Jul 2012)

Ian Cooper said:


> It would be a sad day indeed if anyone agreed with what anyone else thinks. What would there be to discuss?


Plenty.

I agreed more than you...


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## Nihal (1 Jul 2012)

Mad Doug Biker said:


> A bit different, but apparently in Italy hardly anyone actually owns their own house, everything is rented. That'll be why half of Italy looks like a dump then.....
> 
> 
> 
> I'll get me coat and run before Pat sees this.


Yes,umm..Why??


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## Pat "5mph" (1 Jul 2012)

Mad Doug Biker said:


> A bit different, but apparently in Italy hardly anyone actually owns their own house, everything is rented. That'll be why half of Italy looks like a dump then.....
> 
> 
> 
> I'll get me coat and run before Pat sees this.


 
Ha ha! Just saw this, read the whole thread too (sad person I am!)
Yes, ime in Italy most housing is rented.
Uncle Mort has seen statistics to the contrary, may well be, I suspect there are strong regional variations.
Yes, most of the place is a dump  otherwise why would I be living in the uk? 
Yes, if I was to cycle to work in the wee dump where I hailed, they would call me crazy.
Once, I went for a walk, on my return my family said "why did you not take the car?" 
Then again, a friend that lives in the Milano area cycles everywhere, so do her friends. Nobody thinks this weird.
I come from a small village near Rome, she lives up north: again, I think regional/cultural variations are the key.
I do not have any opinions about the "cycling gulf", I do whatever suits me, can't afford a car, hate driving anyway.
Now that I know how to, I would cycle in the village. I am confident enough not to care about people thinking I'm wacko: being a foreigner (here and abroad too) I am expected to act a bit crazy anyway.
I think young people today are admirable in choosing to cycle, while most of their peers want a car asp.
But I would recommend the young cyclist to learn how to drive: you might miss opportunities if you don't.
Ciao!


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## Mad Doug Biker (1 Jul 2012)

Nihal said:


> Yes,umm..Why??



Ask Pat. I think it has just been a traditionally poor country, particularly in the south.


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## Pat "5mph" (1 Jul 2012)

Mad Doug Biker said:


> Ask Pat. I think it has just been a traditionally poor country, particularly in the south.


I don't think that's the reason. I think the reason lies in the banking system - in Italy it's not as straight forward as here to get a mortgage.
Maybe I should say "as it was here to get a mortgage", things have changed.
Note that if you are able to get finance, for various reasons the deal is better than here in the UK.
Another reason for happily renting, is that a lot of property is owned by property management companies, not individual people. This companies charge reasonable rent, keep their properties in good condition, and, most important, will never give you notice, one can live in the same rented flat for life.


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## ufkacbln (2 Jul 2012)

He w


Mugshot said:


> Did he cycle?


He was "recycled" by HM immigration


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