# here we go again: Vino



## wafflycat (24 Jul 2007)

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2007/tour07/news/?id=/news/2007/jul07/jul25news


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## Steve Austin (24 Jul 2007)

oh bugger


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## Chuffy (24 Jul 2007)

Gutted and very angry. I liked Vino and was full of admiration for the way he fought for his pride and self-respect after his Tour seemed to be over. How bloody stupid are these people? !


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## chris42 (24 Jul 2007)

Don't know if I will watch the rest!


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## habibi (24 Jul 2007)

I feel sorry for Kloden. If he's clean..


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## Chuffy (24 Jul 2007)

What price the Tour being stopped? With the Rasmussen case still rumbling I bet the organisers would almost be relieved to pull the plug.


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## Chuffy (24 Jul 2007)

habibi said:


> I feel sorry for Kloden. If he's clean..


<snort of derision>
Sorry, it's hard not to be cynical about it.


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## FatBloke (24 Jul 2007)

Oh FFS!!!! !!!


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## g3nzo (24 Jul 2007)

nooooooooo!!! that is terrible news. i'm gutted, its so hard to follow a rider and not suspect them of doping, it shouldnt be like that!


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## User269 (24 Jul 2007)

Bah! How depressing, I was enjoying the race as well.

See also http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/other_sports/cycling/6914301.stm


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## FatBloke (24 Jul 2007)

Chuffy said:


> What price the Tour being stopped? With the Rasmussen case still rumbling I bet the organisers would almost be relieved to pull the plug.


Far too much cash invested! They'd be sued by every sponsor, TV company, drug manufacturer, etc. etc.

The Tour would continue even if there was only me an' thee left in it!! 
(and I know you're on drugs!!)


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## Steve Austin (24 Jul 2007)

Where is Millar overall?


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## Dayvo (24 Jul 2007)

FOR FUX SAKE!
Sod a two-year ban. Make it for life! That way, just MAYBE the _sport_ will come clean (in both senses). 
Petacchi is cleared - fortunately - but now Vinokourov fails! 
Words fail me!


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## monnet (24 Jul 2007)

The only thing that shocks me is that he got caught. I always felt Vino was going to be one of those that was 'prepared' well enough to go undetected. I also began to naively think he might actually be clean given the way he failed to recover from the time trial. 

Oh well, normal service resumed. I'll keep watching though, as I have done every year since I can remember.


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## zimzum42 (24 Jul 2007)

dammit, this tour was the best for a long time.

Don't care about Vino, just want to see Contador battle it out properly with Rasmussen!


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## monnet (24 Jul 2007)

Steve Austin said:


> Where is Millar overall?



76th and Wegelius is 61st (before the Astana withdrawls). Shall we play that game we had on C+ where we tried to guess where Boardman would have finished if all the dopers were kicked out?


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## Mr Phoebus (24 Jul 2007)

Chances are one or two more will be caught before this tour's over.
It's all cat and mouse.


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## Cathryn (24 Jul 2007)

Gutted actually.

It's my first tour, and the London depart fired me up enough to get rid of those thoughts that pro cycling's just a bunch of druggies. I did wonder yesterday at Vino's come back if he'd test positive, but assumed he wouldn't. I feel really disappointed. 

My C+ wallchart is now compromised!!!


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## Rob S (24 Jul 2007)

Here we go again....reminds me of Tyler Hamilton...his Tour story is more than just riding and winning a stage, he's battling injuries too and then they fail a test 

There I was thinking his emphatic win followed by a very bad day was 'evidence' that just maybe he was riding clean and was actually tired from such an effort...a couple of days later and he's failed a dope test


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## peejay78 (24 Jul 2007)

i think the worse thing is that i was starting to appreciate his efforts and dispel my latent cynicism.

makes me feel even more gutted. 

what a nob.


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## Tim Bennet. (24 Jul 2007)

Brilliant news. One up for the guys in white hats. The whole Vino / Astana thing made my skin crawl. The whole set up using old Eastern Bloc ethics to project nationalistic pride was grim. 

The big selling point to join their team was they could offer out of the way training places, the best of the 'training methods' from doctors who had made a career in the Soviet era of cheating, and a police force you could guarentee would never go snooping around in any one's freezer. No wonder they attracted the sort of riders they did.

It adds credibility to the 'Men in Black' stories. Now I wonder who else was one of them?


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## gavintc (24 Jul 2007)

It reminds of that old adage; if it looks too good to be true - it probably is. His 'recovery' from the previous week was just a little bit too fast for my liking and I commented to my wife on Sat, that I was not happy with his TT. It just reminded me too much of Landis's 'Jack Daniels' induced ride last year. Equally, while I loved watching Rasmussen and Contador duking out on the moutains for the last couple of days, my cynical side is just starting to wonder...... 

I had really hoped that this year we might see a clean one. Fat chance it seems, too much money, too much prestige and too much belief (hope) that 'drugs are for winners'.

I just hope that Team Borat have some idea and inkling on what damage they have inflicted on the sport.


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## chris42 (24 Jul 2007)

LIFE BAN!
Where can we protest and put accross out point of vew??


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## Wogan (24 Jul 2007)

What a ballbag! Now I'll have to suffer even *more* "ho ho, taken any drugs today Wogan?" jibes when I arrive at work on my bike.

The idealist in me wishes that the roadside fans will turn their backs on tomorrow's stage and let the Tour go by in silence. Show the riders how p*ssed off we are.


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## Tetedelacourse (24 Jul 2007)

I am pleased the tour organisers invited a team withdrawal. Glad he's been found out. Gutted for the image of the sport, once again. This year is even more farcical than last year. At least last year we got to Paris before it all unravelled.

You've got to suspect Rasmussen and Contador now too. Frankly no-one is beyond suspicion. Reading some of the comments in the Rasmussen thread, THIS is why we are way beyond the "innocent until proven guilty" premise.


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## yenrod (24 Jul 2007)

In my books they should of binned off Rasmussen AND obviously what they've done with Astana....

Societe du Tour are getting a right royal buggering !

They must love it too ~ considering they are coming across as total hypocrits...they just haven't gone through with what they said cleaning the sport up no riders muddying the tour etc...

FARCE !

'Nother thing I can't understand why Astana are still listed on the tour site either...at this point in time !


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## chris42 (24 Jul 2007)

Shame they've taken down the Astana website so we can't even send abusive e-mails to the cheating gits!!!


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## Steve Austin (24 Jul 2007)

So does this mean Wiggins will be awarded 2nd in the TT the other day?


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## chris42 (24 Jul 2007)

e-mail him abuse here!

http://www.alexander-vinokourov.com/index.php?contact


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## chris42 (24 Jul 2007)

Has any one else made the connection........

both Landis & Vini were riding BMC bikes when they screwed up the TDF!
maybe we should ban BMC fom being a supplier?


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## water (24 Jul 2007)

Someone at 'the other place' has reported that Contador and Rasmussen,even with their bit of cat and mouse play, climbed Plateau de Beille [SP] faster than an attacking pairing of Armstrong and Basso in 2004.That too worries me !!.


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## fuzzy29 (24 Jul 2007)

Dear, oh dear, oh dear. What was he thinking of? With the reputation of a team AND a country on his shoulders, he goes and does something that stupid. A Two year ban would be too good for him as he'll just announce his retirement. 

To think that Astana came out yesterday and said that they would continue to sponsor the team for another 10 years. I guess that deal has all but disappeared. 

Perhaps the UCI need to destroy the licences that Astana and Unibet have got as they just seam to bring bad news!


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## johnny (24 Jul 2007)

What a self-gratification artist. Life ban is the only way, hefty fines would also be a good idea imho. Really peeved about this as was really enjoying it this year.....


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## Intelligenthamster (24 Jul 2007)

Chatting to cycling nut colleague this morning, both of us agreed that Vinokourov's miraculous recovery yesterday had overtones of Landis and "one wonders"... so, not surprised but very disappointing.

IF Kloden is clean that must really suck, as he had a chance (at least until he crashed again) but was always having to babysit Vino. But after Festina, when one on a team flags the others become suspect...

Agree that a life ban is probably the only serious enough sanction. 

What a shame.


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## Toshiba Boy (24 Jul 2007)

Let down....yet again

Just as this year's race was looking like being a classic...as others have said, too good to be true!!!!


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## Smokin Joe (24 Jul 2007)

Too sad for words, I couldn't believe anyone could be so stupid in the present climate.

There is no need to make a first offence a lifetime ban, in effect it already is now. any high profile rider who fails a test has no chance of a place in a Protour team again. No sponsor would stand the flack they would get, and most race organisers would tell the team to take a running jump in any case.


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## Tim Bennet. (24 Jul 2007)

I think the only way to escape a life ban is to reveal all the details about how they went about doping: Where they bought it, who helped them (transfusions aren't DIY jobs), who put them up to it, who knew in the team structure, etc.

If they completely confess and reveal all, then they can have a two year ban. If not, it's life as they clearly haven't totally rejected doping and all thsoe involved with it.


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## HJ (24 Jul 2007)

There are interesting attitudes here, I don't know if he is guilty or innocent, but the presumption here seems to be guilty until proven innocent. Lets wait until the B sample is tested. 

When blood doping it is normal to use the riders own blood which is why it is so difficult to detect by testing. The presence of another persons blood cells in the sample, does suggest that there could be contamination of the sample at the testing lab.

If he is found guilty then he has been incredibly stupid and deserves all that happens to him, but lets wait until the B sample has been properly tested before letting loose the lynch mob.

Justice should be blind.


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## gavintc (24 Jul 2007)

Hairy Jock said:


> lets wait until the B sample has been properly tested before letting loose the lynch mob.
> 
> Justice should be blind.



Nah, lets blindfold him, then hang him. 

On a more serious note, I think the Tour has acted correctly in kicking Astana out as their (Astana's) actions whilst racing affect others and change the course of events in a method than a normal 'innocent till proven guilty' would not apply. The race is still dynamic and outcomes would change if Astana are present.


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## Keith Oates (24 Jul 2007)

I am very sad to read the news, although after the TT and the last day in the hills not really suprised. Cycling needed this like a hole in the head. The really sad thing is that if it's true (B sample confirmation needed) it proves that he has been planning it for a while because getting blood treated takes time and effort!!


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## Jack (25 Jul 2007)

Very sad news. Despite how much it happens, I still find it hard to believe when I find out about it.


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## trio25 (25 Jul 2007)

But at least on a positive note it shows that they are catching the drug cheats. What suprised me is that he got caught, I would have thought with all his money he could stay a step ahead of the tests.


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## Paulus (25 Jul 2007)

Every year this seems to happen. How are these people soooo stupid. With all that's gone on over the last few years you would think that the riders would know they are going to be tested, and yet some continue to juice themselves up. Can the sport continue? How much longer are the sponsors going to put up with it? Is there too much prssure put on riders to perform by outside influences? I am bitterly dissapointed at this. I really thought that this year the riders would be clean and the race would shine. Another tour down the plug.


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## Rob S (25 Jul 2007)

Paulus said:


> With all that's gone on over the last few years you would think that the riders would know they are going to be tested, and yet some continue to juice themselves up.



_Ahh but those other riders were stupid to get caught, I'm far more careful...it won't happen to me....I've devised a foolproof system with the help of my doctor!!_


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## fuzzy29 (25 Jul 2007)

To be fair, if there was a chance of the B sample being negative, why did the whole team agree to leave and why has Vino run back to Monaco? Also, I haven't heard the usual "it wasn't me gov', honest" remarks from him. Guilty as a puppy next to a pile of poo poo! I just feel sorry for the other workers on the team (mechanics, cooks, masseurs etc.) that will be out of work due to the cheating ba$$ards on their team. Perhaps guilty riders should be fined heavily and the money used to support the innocent people who loose out. Or perhaps, they should be made to walk the Tour route and knock on every door to apologise!


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## monnet (25 Jul 2007)

Problem is, as has been revealed in the T-Mobile stuff, the doping is a culture that runs through the team. Given that Astana was formed out of Liberty Seguros I bet most knew what was going on and masseurs in particular have a reputation for knowing what's going on (usually as they're doing it). A few years ago I think David Moncoutie spoke out about drugs claiming that not only was it rife in the sport but also recreationally around the sport - riders, their wives and the directors all off their heads at annual parties etc. 

As for the fine, well he'll lose a year's wages under the new rules. I like the apology idea - but walking's too good for him, make him do real penance and do it on his knees.


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## Freewheel (25 Jul 2007)

Hi all (nice to be here)

Being stage winner again on Monday he would have been tested again I presume?
Can this test also be used (as well as Saturday B test) to prove for/against his use.
How long do the blood cells show up on a test? hours, days?


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## colint (25 Jul 2007)

I hope he at least has the balls to admit it and we don't have to go through the whole Tyler fantasy stories again.

sod him anyway, todays stage should be a belter.


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## Monty Dog (25 Jul 2007)

Does anybody really think that there's anybody in the top 10 that isn't tainted? It's not even as though an 'off-day' is an indication of being clean - clearly some are better 'prepared' than others. The problem is that the petty sqabbling between the UCI and ASO is seriously detracting their efforts to clean-up the sport - does anyone really care about Unibet? These guys are fiddling whilst Rome burns. Ironically, there are many other sports that are playing a shrewder game, picking up sponsors who are disenfranchised with cycling, whilst the governing bodies appear to be far more complicit in sweeping it under the carpet - I mean, everybody still watches the 100m sprint, yet it would appear than anabolics is a pre-requisite for competing.


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## Tim Bennet. (25 Jul 2007)

IIRC, homologous blood doping is detectable for many weeks.


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## Tetedelacourse (25 Jul 2007)

The tests carried out after Monday's stage could not be used to confirm or refute the test results on Saturday as they are different samples all together.


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## k-dog (25 Jul 2007)

^ yeah, but surely testing those could provide a clue as to whether the samples were contaminated.

That's what always struck me about Floyd last year - he was in yellow for a while so was tested regularly - and only that one test showed something strange.

Not saying he didn't do it - just that it was odd - unless he was having transfusions during the Tour.


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## fuzzy29 (25 Jul 2007)

It's only the rubbish that has been spouted by Landis and Hamilton that have even suggested that there might be a problem with the testing procedure. The European riders accept the findings and the French lad is up to the WADA standards. With all the practice they get each year, I wouldn't expect them to make a mistake.


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## Blonde (25 Jul 2007)

I expected as much - that's what you get with a team with loads of money... more and better drugs, and more and better ways of doping! 

Me, cynical?

k-dog, according to Willy Voet's story of the Festina affair, yes they do transfusions and drip-feeds of all kinds of drugs during the tour. You'd think though that people would know that homologous blood doping was detectable for weeks after the event - so they are taking a big risk of being caught, doing anything either just before, or on the tour.


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## Tim Bennet. (25 Jul 2007)

Vinokourov has insisted he has done nothing wrong, telling French sports newspaper L'Equipe: "It's a mistake. I never doped, that's not the way I see my profession. 

"I think it's a mistake in part due to my crash. I have spoken to the team doctors who had a hypothesis that there was an enormous amount of blood in my thighs, which could have led to my positive test." 

Vinokourov also claimed he and his team have been victimised: "It's been going on for months and today they're managing to demolish me. 

"The setting-up of our team made a lot of people jealous and now we're paying the price. It's a shame to leave the Tour this way, *but I don't want to waste time in proving my innocence." *


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## Tim Bennet. (25 Jul 2007)

*Astana has Kazakh support*

The Switzerland-registered Astana ProTour squad has counted claims that it's on the brink of collapse following the damaging news that star rider Alexandre Vinokourov tested positive for a homologous blood transfusion at the Tour de France. A brief release from the organisation, which has honoured Tour de France organiser's request to leave the Tour, stated the team will continue with the full support of the Kazakhstan Cycling Federation.

"Contrary to what some medias announced, the Astana Cycling Team goes on with its activities and will be at the start of the next two races : Sachsen Tour (July 25 - 29) and Brixia Tour (July 26-29)," declared the release from Astana's spokesperson Corinne Druey. "The team's management, still in Pau (Fra), just received the total support of the President of the Cycling Federation of Kazakhstan, Mr Danial Akhmetov."

The Kazak government has been a strong supporter of Vinokourov and the Astana team. The squad was formed last year following the collapse of Manolo Saiz's Liberty Seguros team in the fallout from Operación Puerto. 

In an interview with *Cyclingnews* earlier this month, Kazakh Ambassador Erlan Idrissov said the significance of a Kazakh winner on the world stage cannot be underestimated. For the youngsters of Kazakhstan - a country where a rumoured 250,000 of the 15 million population are drug addicts - the example of Vino and Andrey Kashechkin is designed to be inspirational. "Many boys and girls will jump into cycling, they will stay away from drugs and bars and they will have something to devote their lives to," Idrissov said in the interview. "The message will be that they can also achieve success like this. And the government can support this message by building modern facilities for them."


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## k-dog (25 Jul 2007)

> Many boys and girls will jump into cycling, they will stay away from drugs...



:lol


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## MsMalfoy (25 Jul 2007)

I feel so let down, if the B sample also tests positive then Vino deserves a life ban and the team and those directly involved, soigneurs, team doctors etc should also recieve serious punishment.
I'd really felt optimistic at the start of this years Tour, to be honest I think that this is still just the tip of a very dirty iceberg.


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## monnet (25 Jul 2007)

Can't remember where I saw it (Cyclingnews?) but it's been rumoured in L'equipe that his test after Monday's stage was positive too.


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## monnet (25 Jul 2007)

monnet said:


> Can't remember where I saw it (Cyclingnews?) but it's been rumoured in L'equipe that his test after Monday's stage was positive too.



Well, you may also have seen it on the thread titled 'Vinokourov tested positive twice' also in this section!


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## HJ (25 Jul 2007)

Tim Bennet. said:


> Vinokourov has insisted he has done nothing wrong, telling French sports newspaper L'Equipe: "It's a mistake. I never doped, that's not the way I see my profession.
> 
> "I think it's a mistake in part due to my crash. I have spoken to the team doctors who had a hypothesis that there was an enormous amount of blood in my thighs, which could have led to my positive test."



When riders start to make up stories like this to protest their innocence it starts to sound like they are lying, a crash wouldn't change the blood volume, because blood circulates and certainly couldn't cause the blood to change group!!


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