# Rip off Britain (as if you didn't know already)



## marzjennings (15 Mar 2017)

Sorry to do this, but felt the need to post a surprising difference in the price of a bike between US and UK.

I use Chainreactioncycles a fair bit and even though I'm in the US they most often provide the best prices and shipping times. Saying that I was surprised when I researched a new bike, a Nukeproof gravel bike (yes I am that trendy). When I first arrived on the chainreaction page for this bike this is the price I saw...

*Nukeproof Digger 1.0 Gravel Bike 2017 **£1449.99*

and when I changed country and currency...

*Nukeproof Digger 1.0 Gravel Bike 2017 $1299.99
*
That's about a *£400 *difference, way more than the normal VAT difference I'm used to seeing.

Again, apologies for pointing out something you may already be aware of, but this was a surprising price difference.


----------



## slowmotion (15 Mar 2017)

I wanted to buy some quite good Danish-manufactured loudspeaker drive units a few years ago. The UK agent gave me a price. I bought them from a supplier in California for £200 less, even when shipping and customs fees were factored in.

The US is a big market, the UK isn't, so the prices here don't have to be internationally competitive. I think it's known as Treasure Island.


----------



## screenman (15 Mar 2017)

Does it cost more to do business in the UK?


----------



## Lozz360 (15 Mar 2017)

Nukeproof is an American brand, so you would expect to pay more in the U.K. given import duties, no?

Good job you are not in France as this puzzles me: - Decathlon France currently selling on their website the B'Twin Ultra 920 AF for 1,400 € (£1,200) but on the UK site and in store, the identical Ultra 720 AF is £1,050. The same difference applies throughout their range with UK prices being considerably cheaper. I know we are still in the EU so no import duties but Decathlon are French so why charge their home market so much more?


----------



## screenman (15 Mar 2017)

I do not get this rip off Britain, I consider that we do very well over here in general.


----------



## I like Skol (15 Mar 2017)

marzjennings said:


> Sorry to do this, but felt the need to post a surprising difference in the price of a bike between US and UK.
> 
> I use Chainreactioncycles a fair bit and even though I'm in the US they most often provide the best prices and shipping times. Saying that I was surprised when I researched a new bike, a Nukeproof gravel bike (yes I am that trendy). When I first arrived on the chainreaction page for this bike this is the price I saw...
> Not
> ...


So don't buy it then! It can hardly be classed as an essential purchase or necessity. IMO people spending such large sums on stuff that is effectively a toy cant really justify complaining about rip offs!


----------



## Dave 123 (15 Mar 2017)

We're ok with being ripped off, you have to put up with a big orange slug at the helm. You lose!


----------



## biggs682 (15 Mar 2017)

I like Skol said:


> So don't buy it then! It can hardly be classed as an essential purchase or necessity. IMO people spending such large sums on stuff that is effectively a toy cant really justify complaining about rip offs!




well said


----------



## steveindenmark (15 Mar 2017)

I bought a Moto Guzzi California in the UK and then paid more in import tax in Denmark, than I did for the actual bike.

Someone always has it worse than you.


----------



## biggs682 (15 Mar 2017)

Dave 123 said:


> We're ok with being ripped off, you have to put up with a big orange slug at the helm. You lose!



just got this


----------



## snorri (15 Mar 2017)

screenman said:


> Does it cost more to do business in the UK?


Only until we are out of the EU, why else would we leave?


----------



## Tim Hall (15 Mar 2017)

marzjennings said:


> Sorry to do this, but felt the need to post a surprising difference in the price of a bike between US and UK.
> 
> I use Chainreactioncycles a fair bit and even though I'm in the US they most often provide the best prices and shipping times. Saying that I was surprised when I researched a new bike, a Nukeproof gravel bike (yes I am that trendy). When I first arrived on the chainreaction page for this bike this is the price I saw...
> 
> ...


Don't forget bike parts attract duty at 4.7% while complete bikes are 15%. Then add VAT at 20% to the whole lot.


----------



## Biff600 (15 Mar 2017)

I agree that we are getting ripped off here, I bought a guitar the other year that cost £1949, the exact same thing in the US is £1275. It would have been cheaper to get a flight and bring it back !!


----------



## Dogtrousers (15 Mar 2017)

Try going to Norway. I bought 4 AA batteries, a postcard and a stamp at Tromsø airport and found I had spent all my holiday money.


----------



## Lozz360 (15 Mar 2017)

Tim Hall said:


> Don't forget bike parts attract duty at 4.7% while complete bikes are 15%. Then add VAT at 20% to the whole lot.


Don't forget shipping costs.


----------



## S-Express (15 Mar 2017)

Not sure if I'm missing something here, but bikes (and most other stuff too) has always been cheaper in dollars. This is not news.


----------



## Biff600 (15 Mar 2017)

User said:


> Not if you then pay the import duty and VAT when you bring it back to the UK.



Only if it is unused and still in the original wrapping, a friend of mine bought a Rolex in Dubai, had it on his wrist when coming back through customs, said that he had bought it as a gift for himself and the customs guys said it was fine. No issues, no import duty or VAT



Lozz360 said:


> Don't forget shipping costs.



It would have been part of my carry on luggage


----------



## Globalti (15 Mar 2017)

Yebbut anybody who pays the full price for any consumer goods is a fool; if you're patient and you don't want the latest kit now now you can get everything discounted.


----------



## Tin Pot (15 Mar 2017)

People who think they are getting ripped off all the time don't understand what being ripped off means, market prices, or anything about the costs associated with products.


If you're happy with a price at the time you pay for it, and happy with the goods, chill out and be happy. FFS.

If you're not happy with the price at the time you're buying, don't farking buy it.


----------



## roadrash (15 Mar 2017)

if you want to see rip off prices then go to a motorway service station , last week I picked up a can of coke, a bag of crisp and a mars bar. When I got to the till , I said sorry but ive only got a twenty pound note...... that's ok she said .......you can put the crisp back.....


----------



## Drago (15 Mar 2017)

It's quite common in all industries to change the dollar sign to a pound sign and add 20%.


----------



## nickyboy (15 Mar 2017)

Biff600 said:


> Only if it is unused and still in the original wrapping, a friend of mine bought a Rolex in Dubai, had it on his wrist when coming back through customs, said that he had bought it as a gift for himself and the customs guys said it was fine. No issues, no import duty or VAT
> 
> 
> 
> It would have been part of my carry on luggage



Your advice about "unused and still in original wrapping" is not correct. Buy something outside UK, bring it back to UK, you have to pay the appropriate duty on it. Whether you choose to illegally import something and not pay the duty (thereby committing a criminal act) is up to you of course. Your friend's story does not reflect UK law so seems unlikely

As an example, golf clubs have been traditionally cheaper in USA. It has been common for golfers to have a USA holiday and buy a set and bring them back. But UK customs are wise to this and they check the state of the clubs. Unused....you're stuffed. Even used a couple of times while you're out there but still in good nick....you're in for a very tough time

But you can't start comparing international prices without considering duties payable


----------



## Tim Hall (15 Mar 2017)

S-Express said:


> Not sure if I'm missing something here, but bikes (and most other stuff too) has always been cheaper in dollars. This is not news.


I think that's covered by the bit of the thread title that appears in brackets.


----------



## Drago (15 Mar 2017)

steveindenmark said:


> Someone always has it worse than you.


Indeed. Try paying car tax in Ireland.


----------



## Andrew_P (15 Mar 2017)

You would have ot think CRC would not ship that from the UK but get the USA manufactuer to dropship it within the USA. The real test would be a EU product being cheaper in USD, but I cannot be arsed to go on CRC to find out..


----------



## PhilDawson8270 (15 Mar 2017)

The US Prices are often advertised excluding federal and state taxes too, so makes them appear cheaper than they actually are, not sure if that's the case here.

But try adding one to the basket and filling in the shipping details see what the total with tax comes to.


----------



## martint235 (15 Mar 2017)

User said:


> I find that doubtful. Duty and VAT would be payable on all goods purchased outside the EU with a value over £395, whether wrapped, used, a gift or not.
> 
> Your friend either failed to declare or is telling porkies.


According to gov.uk the appropriate piece seems to be "planning to sell". I've always thought that if you bought yourself something (anyone remember the game Contraband from their childhood) it was ok if it was for you and you were using it before you passed customs so wearing a watch, having used perfume etc.

Bearing in mind how few people are aware they need to declare anything other than tobacco and alcohol anyway, it's a moot point though.


----------



## PhilDawson8270 (15 Mar 2017)

PhilDawson8270 said:


> The US Prices are often advertised excluding federal and state taxes too, so makes them appear cheaper than they actually are, not sure if that's the case here.
> 
> But try adding one to the basket and filling in the shipping details see what the total with tax comes to.



I just tried this, CRC say "Our prices have no UK or US sales tax, the price you see is the price you pay."

But then their shipping says taxes are included, and this is then $1401.99

But then "Orders over $800 including shipping may be subject to US import duties and carrier admin fees. As we have no control over these, please consult with US customs authorities to confirm associated costs."

US Import Duties if going to NY come out at $144, so you're looking at $1841.99 which converts to around £1508.

So the UK item to the door is cheaper than the US price.

The US price is also $1849.99 before the sale offer too.


----------



## Dogtrousers (15 Mar 2017)

If it is such a big ripoff that some suggest, this is an ideal opportunity for a business importing these incredibly cheap goods and undercutting all the evil ripper-offers. 

Any takers?


----------



## Smokin Joe (15 Mar 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> If it is such a big ripoff that some suggest, this is an ideal opportunity for a business importing these incredibly cheap goods and undercutting all the evil ripper-offers.
> 
> Any takers?


"Any takers" would soon find the harsh realities of the import business.


----------



## Lozz360 (15 Mar 2017)

Biff600 said:


> It would have been part of my carry on luggage


Maybe, but I was responding to a post about the cost of buying a USA made bike in the UK.


----------



## PK99 (15 Mar 2017)

Tim Hall said:


> Don't forget bike parts attract duty at 4.7% while complete bikes are 15%. Then add VAT at 20% to the whole lot.



$1299 = £1066

£1066 * 1.15 * 1.2 = £1471


----------



## marzjennings (15 Mar 2017)

I like Skol said:


> So don't buy it then! It can hardly be classed as an essential purchase or necessity. IMO people spending such large sums on stuff that is effectively a toy cant really justify complaining about rip offs!


I'm not complaining as if I buy the bike I benefit from the cheaper price. I'm used to see a difference in price when shifting between currency (actual cost, rather than just different digits), but this time I was quite surprised at how much cheaper the bike was for US customers.


----------



## PhilDawson8270 (15 Mar 2017)

marzjennings said:


> I'm not complaining as if I buy the bike I benefit from the cheaper price. I'm used to see a difference in price when shifting between currency (actual cost, rather than just different digits), but this time I was quite surprised at how much cheaper the bike was for US customers.



If you see my above post, the bike is actually more expensive for US customers.


----------



## confusedcyclist (15 Mar 2017)

In America if you lose your job, you're out on the street in 6 weeks with no job seekers allowance. If you get sick and don't have insurance, you're reduced to online begging, or dependency on charitable organisations. Things are cheaper there for a reason. The taxes are lower and thus costs of goods falls in all areas, but their social welfare is lacking for the same reason. Now, I'm not saying this is good or bad, that depends on your political opinions, but it's also an important factor in cost of living differences.

We pay more for a lot of things, but we also have it pretty good here in the UK. At least for now.


----------



## screenman (15 Mar 2017)

Wages over here are a rip off, I could employ someone in China for a lot less.


----------



## nickyboy (15 Mar 2017)

martint235 said:


> According to gov.uk the appropriate piece seems to be "planning to sell". I've always thought that if you bought yourself something (anyone remember the game Contraband from their childhood) it was ok if it was for you and you were using it before you passed customs so wearing a watch, having used perfume etc.
> 
> Bearing in mind how few people are aware they need to declare anything other than tobacco and alcohol anyway, it's a moot point though.



I think this is the relevant linky

https://www.gov.uk/duty-free-goods/arrivals-from-outside-the-eu

If you don't bring the goods in yourself, you have to pay duty. End of. If you bring goods in personally there are various personal limits. For example you can bring in £390 of goods from USA without attracting duty. So the idea that you can buy a fancy watch and then tell UK customs that you've "bought it for personal use" and thus avoid duty is, according to the official website, nonsense


----------



## Gary E (15 Mar 2017)

screenman said:


> Wages over here are a rip off, I could employ someone in China for a lot less.



...and I thought I had a long commute!


----------



## martint235 (15 Mar 2017)

nickyboy said:


> I think this is the relevant linky
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/duty-free-goods/arrivals-from-outside-the-eu
> 
> If you don't bring the goods in yourself, you have to pay duty. End of. If you bring goods in personally there are various personal limits. For example you can bring in £390 of goods from USA without attracting duty. So the idea that you can buy a fancy watch and then tell UK customs that you've "bought it for personal use" and thus avoid duty is, according to the official website, nonsense





User said:


> No - nothing to do with planning to sell.
> 
> The basics are here (scroll down page to 'Allowances for Other Goods')


Good to know although I feel they need to publicise it more. I'm sure a lot of people are only aware of tobacco and alcohol (plus the page I linked to will be reached first by some people)


----------



## screenman (15 Mar 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> If it is such a big ripoff that some suggest, this is an ideal opportunity for a business importing these incredibly cheap goods and undercutting all the evil ripper-offers.
> 
> Any takers?



I already do that, next time next year I will not be a millionaire.


----------



## marzjennings (15 Mar 2017)

confusedcyclist said:


> In America if you lose your job, you're out on the street in 6 weeks with no job seekers allowance. If you get sick and don't have insurance, you're reduced to online begging, or dependency on charitable organisations. Things are cheaper there for a reason. The taxes are lower and thus costs of goods falls in all areas, but their social welfare is lacking for the same reason. Now, I'm not saying this is good or bad, that depends on your political opinions, but it's also an important factor in cost of living differences.
> We pay more for a lot of things, but we also have it pretty good here in the UK. At least for now.



Yea, can't argue with most of that, though taxes in general are about the same. What I've found over the years is that what you need, food, clothing, education, health is a lot cheaper in the UK and what you want, car, tv, bike, is a lot cheaper in the US. So as whole, rip off Britain only seems to apply a couple of things and not to life in general.


----------



## marzjennings (15 Mar 2017)

PhilDawson8270 said:


> If you see my above post, the bike is actually more expensive for US customers.


No, for Texas I'd pay just over 10% for import tax, putting the grand total still under the UK price.


----------



## screenman (16 Mar 2017)

marzjennings said:


> No, for Texas I'd pay just over 10% for import tax, putting the grand total still under the UK price.



So not really a rip off then.


----------



## Beebo (16 Mar 2017)

Wait until we leave the EU and everything has WTO tariffs added.


----------



## Drago (16 Mar 2017)

Including our exports.


----------



## jefmcg (16 Mar 2017)

roadrash said:


> if you want to see rip off prices then go to a motorway service station , last week I picked up a can of coke, a bag of crisp and a mars bar. When I got to the till , I said sorry but ive only got a twenty pound note...... that's ok she said .......you can put the crisp back.....


That wasn't about the price. She just doesn't want you to get diabetes.


----------



## Chris S (16 Mar 2017)

The Birmingham Christmas Market just used to change the Euro signs to a Pound one. They're almost the same now anyway.


----------



## Blue Hills (17 Mar 2017)

Biff600 said:


> a friend of mine bought a Rolex in Dubai, had it on his wrist when coming back through customs, said that he had bought it as a gift for himself and the customs guys said it was fine. No issues, no import duty or VAT
> 
> 
> 
> It would have been part of my carry on luggage



I didn't know this was the rule? I thought that with expensive stuff, certain cameras etc, it was advisable to take the original purchase receipts with you so that you could prove that you flew out with it - had bought it in the UK - and I used to know someone whom thinking they were clever, had bought a camera in the east, flown back with it as if they had taken it with them, apparently got caught out - or so they told me - when the receipt posted back to them was spotted in the post. Had to pay duty/a fine or whatever. Am I wrong or has something changed?

edit - have caught up with late posts - yep, appears that mr rolex was a wise guy telling porkies.


----------



## Blue Hills (17 Mar 2017)

Drago said:


> Indeed. Try paying car tax in Ireland.


or alcohol in Sweden.


----------



## Drago (17 Mar 2017)

And boy do you need alcohol if you live in Sweden.


----------



## Blue Hills (17 Mar 2017)

Try buying simple everyday pills in Italy.

Some ponce in a white coat in the pharmacy who sees themselves as a priest will dispense them with all due solemnity, then charge you an outrageous amount for something you can pick up here in the supermarket for about 25p.

One of these pseudo priests told someone I know that Italy has the best drugs in the world.


----------



## Gasman (17 Mar 2017)

If you buy something by mail order from the US then import duty is not collected if the item is worth less than about £20. There is still VAT of a pound or two but HMRC have an arrangement with Royal Mail whereby RM hold onto items until you pay them the VAT to pass on to HMRC. RM then cover their costs by whacking on a flat-rate £8 "handling charge". Curiously, when I buy stuff from the far east there is no further charge added.

On another occasion, I was buying a World-of-Warcraft figurine for my son's birthday. The price on the US website was so much less than on the European site that I reckoned I could buy it from USA and, even with the charges above, still save money, albeit delivery would take longer. What happened was that after ordering it and paying in dollars, the USA side passed on the order details to their European operation who delivered the item from their stock a few days later. So, half price, No VAT, no Royal Mail charge! Result!!


----------



## RollingNoMad (19 May 2018)

Lozz360 said:


> Nukeproof is an American brand, so you would expect to pay more in the U.K. given import duties, no?
> 
> Good job you are not in France as this puzzles me: - Decathlon France currently selling on their website the B'Twin Ultra 920 AF for 1,400 € (£1,200) but on the UK site and in store, the identical Ultra 720 AF is £1,050. The same difference applies throughout their range with UK prices being considerably cheaper. I know we are still in the EU so no import duties but Decathlon are French so why charge their home market so much more?



Formerly: Michigan, USA (5,141.08 mi) and now in Belfast, Northern Ireland


----------



## Shut Up Legs (20 May 2018)

marzjennings said:


> Sorry to do this, but felt the need to post a surprising difference in the price of a bike between US and UK.
> 
> I use Chainreactioncycles a fair bit and even though I'm in the US they most often provide the best prices and shipping times. Saying that I was surprised when I researched a new bike, a Nukeproof gravel bike (yes I am that trendy). When I first arrived on the chainreaction page for this bike this is the price I saw...
> 
> ...


Interesting: I just checked the same one in Australian currency, and according to the current exchange rate, it would cost about 995 British pounds (sorry, can't find the pound symbol on my Australian keyboard).
Normally, things cost more here, because of the shipping costs (or at least, that's the excuse the vendors tend to use a lot).


----------



## greenmark (20 May 2018)

Shut Up Legs said:


> Interesting: I just checked the same one in Australian currency, and according to the current exchange rate, it would cost about 995 British pounds (sorry, can't find the pound symbol on my Australian keyboard).
> Normally, things cost more here, because of the shipping costs (or at least, that's the excuse the vendors tend to use a lot).



That bike costs £830 if shipped to Hong Kong. Free shipping and zero import duties here.


----------



## Blue Hills (20 May 2018)

Gasman said:


> If you buy something by mail order from the US then import duty is not collected if the item is worth less than about £20. There is still VAT of a pound or two but HMRC have an arrangement with Royal Mail whereby RM hold onto items until you pay them the VAT to pass on to HMRC. RM then cover their costs by whacking on a flat-rate £8 "handling charge". Curiously, when I buy stuff from the far east there is no further charge added.
> 
> t!!



Re your last point, my understanding and experience when ordering stuff from the east/china, where of course much of what you buy here is of course made, is that as long as the value is less than £15 you are in the clear with regard to both customs duty and VAT. I would never buy anything electrical, core bike components, or anything with safety implications though.


----------



## flake99please (20 May 2018)

I would think it has more to do with false (lower) declared product values on the CN22 (or equivalent) forms from the far East.


----------



## Blue Hills (20 May 2018)

No, i checked. Am pretty sure the £15 rule puts you in the clear. I always buy under, usually well under, that. I seem to remember seeing ONE seller which cheerfully announced that it would under declare value and label stuff as "a gift" but I don't want to get involved in that sort of stuff.


----------



## Alan O (20 May 2018)

Blue Hills said:


> No, i checked. Am pretty sure the £15 rule puts you in the clear. I always buy under, usually well under, that. I seem to remember seeing ONE seller which cheerfully announced that it would under declare value and label stuff as "a gift" but I don't want to get involved in that sort of stuff.


The relevant rules can be found at https://www.gov.uk/goods-sent-from-abroad/tax-and-duty


----------



## Blue Hills (20 May 2018)

Thanks for providing the link for folks alan, was tricky for me to do it on my tiddly tab. Yes that's what I checked out. You can get a lot from the east for less than £15. Had some excellent stuff.

The killer for most stuff on the vat is not the vat itself but the processing charge the PO (£8?) Will charge to collect the pennies. So stay under £15 and all is well. And buy from folk that label their packages clearly and honestly. I well remember pointing out to one chinese seller that their labelling on one thing was not up to their usual standards and could have caused problems and they promptly sent a partial refund to my paypal account. Can't argue with that.


----------



## Alan O (20 May 2018)

Blue Hills said:


> Thanks for providing the link for folks alan, was tricky for me to do it on my tiddly tab. Yes that's what I checked out. You can get a lot from the east for less than £15. Had some excellent stuff.


Yes indeed, often with amazingly low postage too.


----------



## Illaveago (20 May 2018)

Dogtrousers said:


> Try going to Norway. I bought 4 AA batteries, a postcard and a stamp at Tromsø airport and found I had spent all my holiday money.


That reminds me of a maths question from the 60's .


----------



## FishFright (20 May 2018)

marzjennings said:


> Sorry to do this, but felt the need to post a surprising difference in the price of a bike between US and UK.
> 
> I use Chainreactioncycles a fair bit and even though I'm in the US they most often provide the best prices and shipping times. Saying that I was surprised when I researched a new bike, a Nukeproof gravel bike (yes I am that trendy). When I first arrived on the chainreaction page for this bike this is the price I saw...
> 
> ...



Does the U.S price include Sales tax, state tax and all the other taxes they leave off the sticker price ?


----------



## vickster (20 May 2018)

FishFright said:


> Does the U.S price include Sales tax, state tax and all the other taxes they leave off the sticker price ?


You don't usually pay those if they are being shipped overseas, only when buying in the US to stay in the US (although some states are exempt on certain stuff like clothing in Massachusetts)


----------



## Bodhbh (21 May 2018)

It's generally worth checking the prices on one of the German suppliers - Rose, Bike Components, etc. For whatever reason - scale?! - they often seem to be much cheaper on some imports. I recently bough a Surly Troll frameset: $650 in the US, £750 from Tredz/Triton/etc in the UK, 520 Euros from Bike Components.


----------



## Alan O (21 May 2018)

Bodhbh said:


> It's generally worth checking the prices on one of the German suppliers - Rose, Bike Components, etc. For whatever reason - scale?! - they often seem to be much cheaper on some imports. I recently bough a Surly Troll frameset: $650 in the US, £750 from Tredz/Triton/etc in the UK, 520 Euros from Bike Components.


Curiously, in different product areas, I've found ordering direct from German suppliers to often be significantly cheaper than from UK suppliers, even including shipping. I'd expect UK dealers, who import from Germany in bulk, to be cheaper. VAT is almost exactly the same (20% UK, 19% Germany), so that wouldn't account for it.


----------



## Nigel-YZ1 (21 May 2018)

I do a lot of ebay buying for work (yes I'm cheap!). China is cheaper than everyone, and I heard somewhere the Chinese authorities subsidise the postage.
Things like monitor arms are cheaper from Germany than the UK, where a £60 item will be sold at £400. Barcode scanners which have less life expectancy than a WW1 fighter pilot in our factory are £65 from Bulgaria, but £200+ in the UK.

Off on a tangent for a mo, I get all the IT equipment used off ebay. Up to four year old bombproof i5 Dell Optiplex for £99. Dell 22" monitors for £75 (new I think they're a few hundred). Network switches are always new and servers less than a year old. As long as I have a backup regime tighter than a ducks' botty all is good.
Factory scanpoints are £50-£65 for a HP Thin Client that's £250 new. The old shape monitors for those are skip fodder and I pick them up for £10.
IT supply firms take me off their call lists when I tell them about my strategy.

Edit#1 - It's not 'all' cos the switches are new - but hey I type faster than my brain works!


----------

