# Accident this morning. Advice appreciated.



## EasyPeez (8 Jan 2016)

Hi,

Got knocked off my bike on the way to work this morning; it's the first time that's happened so was a bit shook up briefly, but generally ok I think. Ironically I was on my way to a bike shop for a meeting so the bike's been checked over, bent rear hanger fixed, no other apparent damage.

The lady stopped to help and was very apologetic. She has given me her number and said to let her know if there was any damage to me or the bike. My shoulder hurts like hell so I'll get that checked out, but other than that it's just cuts and bruises. My head took a whack on the tarmac after I'd gone over her bonnet so my helmet is cracked. I'll ring her and ask if she's willing to pay for a new one.

I'm not in the business of trying to make anyone feel guilty and certainly not looking to sue etc - it was a bad junction and it's not like she was driving recklessly.

Anyway, just wanted to check with the knowledge base here if I could have made better choices this morning to inform my future riding. Situation was this - 

Cycling along a busy A-road, a long line of traffic at a standstill in front of me (800-900 yards worth, maybe more) queueing for a roundabout. There is no cycle lane on the road and the cars are too far over to the left to allow filtering on the pavement side (which I tend to avoid anyway for fear of getting squeezed in). So I chose to filter along the drivers' side. I am overtaking the line of traffic but still within 'my' lane, so cars on the opposite side are not impeded and that side is flowing freely. I am doing 15-16mph at this point and being as observant as poss, but clearly not observant enough as before I know what is happening a car pulls across my path from my left, obv pulling out to turn right into the free flowing lane. As she pulled out in front of a stationary van she had not seen me coming, nor was I able to see and anticipate the junction with her car pulling out. The van has clearly done the polite and reasonable thing and stopped before the junction to allow traffic to pass between the stationary line so I have sympathy for the woman as she would feel invited to pull out and couldn't have seen me. In coming out she knocked the bike from under me and sent me over the bonnet. Thankfully, as it was clear on the opposite side of the road (hence her pulling out) no major damage was done to me or the bike, being as that's where we both ended up.

Any comments/thoughts/advice most welcome.
Anticipate gaps in the traffic ahead to represent entrances or junctions and slow right down is one learning point I've taken from this. In not doing so this morning was I essentially cycling badly and therefore essentially largely to blame?

Cheers.


----------



## Drago (8 Jan 2016)

You've an injury, even if it's just aches and pains, report it to the Dibble.

Are you looking to claim for compo for injuries and distress/upset, or just to get the bike fixed?


----------



## Spinney (8 Jan 2016)

No, you are not to blame. 
You could possibly have avoided this by cycling more cautiously, but in the end she pulled out in front of someone legitimately cycling along the road.

And as Drago said, any accident resulting in injury, no matter how minor, should be reported to the police.

If your shoulder 'hurts like hell' it is possible you may have damaged it more than you think, in which case you may wish to claim compensation for injuries as well as damage to the bike. Another reason for reporting it.

And GWS!


----------



## fossyant (8 Jan 2016)

You must replace the helmet. Willing ? She bloody well better pay up. 

My latest over the bonnet got me a seriously broken back - vertebrae snapped through.

Watch the shoulder, they are buggers to heal, believe you me.

Are you a registered member with BC or CTC ?


----------



## raleighnut (8 Jan 2016)

Ouch GWS


----------



## Ian H (8 Jan 2016)

General observation from reading/hearing of various incidents: Folk are often apologetic and helpful at the time, then change their minds later and deny responsibility. It's _always _worth getting camera evidence, witness details, etc., at the time.


----------



## Nigeyy (8 Jan 2016)

Though not with a bicycle, that happened to me once. I can't agree more with Ian, get as much evidence as possible and don't get messed around. Hopefully the person is decent and follows through, but I would take the assumption they may not (saying and doing can be two completely different things). I'm not advocating being nasty or impolite, just being well prepared.



Ian H said:


> General observation from reading/hearing of various incidents: Folk are often apologetic and helpful at the time, then change their minds later and deny responsibility. It's _always _worth getting camera evidence, witness details, etc., at the time.


----------



## vickster (8 Jan 2016)

You have 3 years to start a personal injury claim so no rush. But do report it, do get checked out (I'm awaiting surgery on my shoulder which might be the result of my cycling accident 2 years ago) and write everything down and get photos of injuries. You may decide to claim later down the line so best to document everything

I certainly wouldn't filter at those speeds but still driver to blame 

GWS


----------



## Keith Oates (8 Jan 2016)

Bad luck in being hit and I hope there is no lasting damage to you. The lady may be genuine in saying that she will pay for any damages but once her friends and family hear about it they could change her mind. The advice given above is all good and should be followed in case there are some problems in the future.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## EasyPeez (8 Jan 2016)

Thanks for feedback so far. Off to hospital now for a small op anyway so will see if anyone there can check out my shoulder.

I am a BC member.

The lady seemed genuine and claimed to be a cyclist herself. She rang her husband (also one of 'us' apparently) to come pick me and the bike up but I told her not to as it was still ride-able.

Not looking to make any claim for anything as things stand. I am lucky enough to be mates with the owner of the bike shop so the damage has been fixed for free already (just bent mech as I said).

I will call her later to ask if she's ok to pay for a new helmet and new saddle-bag bracket as they're the two things he can't fix. Shouldn't be more than £50 for the pair so I'm happy to take that if she's happy to pay.

Obvs is she gets difficult then my thoughts on a claim will change. Likewise if my shoulder injury turns out to be worse than it seems and keeps me off work.

I have no helmet-camera and was too dazed to think about asking any motorists (not that they seemed in the least bit interested as none got out of their vehicles) for phone numbers as witnesses, so I guess I've not done so well in terms of covering my back there.

Again, thanks for all the advice. I feel strangely emotional at the support given on here (prob fear of this op I'm on my way to as much as owt!)


----------



## Spinney (8 Jan 2016)

I think you need to be careful about accepting money at this point. Often the acceptance of payment is taken to imply acceptance that this will be the _only_ payment. So if your shoulder does start to play up later, you may have a battle on your hands to get any compensation if you have to miss work etc. I don't know the legal case, but if you give her any kind of written receipt, best to make it plain that you are accepting it for repair to your bike and _not _as a final payment for any health issues that may become apparent.


----------



## EasyPeez (8 Jan 2016)

fossyant said:


> My latest over the bonnet got me a seriously broken back - vertebrae snapped through.



Really sorry to hear that, mate. Genuinely. I hope your recovery goes well.


----------



## vickster (8 Jan 2016)

Why not call BC and get advice? You are not obliged to start a PI claim. Damages to property and to self are separate. The only issue is her insurance will know but she's obliged to tell them regardless. You need to tell the police too


----------



## Jimmy Doug (8 Jan 2016)

To my mind, you did everything right. Apart from one thing. I think you were going far too fast - don't forget that it's not always easy to spot cyclists at the best of times, but when traffic's busy motorists can already be suffering from an overload of information and can be stressed out to boot. Perhaps you could send us a Google street view link of the spot?
Definitely agree with everything else that's been said here. A few years ago, someone's dog ran across the road and I hit him at high speed. The guy was very helpful and apologetic at the time, but once I got home I realised the bike was a right off. When I phoned him about this he was very rude and refused to pay. It's only because I had a witness and was able to threaten him with a letter by our solicitor that he coughed up. As an actual matter of fact, I'd lost the witnesses' details so I wouldn't have been able to follow it up anyway - fortunately the guy didn't know that!
Hope you get better soon and it doesn't put you off cycling.


----------



## Mile195 (8 Jan 2016)

Sorry to hear this and hope once the bruises fade you will be ok. You should definitely report it, just in case anything happens later (including her claiming against you which probably won't happen but you should cover yourself anyway). You don't have to take any action right now or ever if you don't want to - you just fill in a form which gets filed by the police.

As for what you can do in terms of riding style, I'd agree you were probably going a bit too fast if you were close enough to the cars on your left to make the gap in front of the van hidden to you. 15+ mph is ok if you were filtering on the other side of the road (had it been clear) giving you a better view of any gaps, but not otherwise. I mistrust ANY gaps I can see, but can't tell what they're for. Always assume it's there because there's something you can't see that may pull out. And when filtering down a cycle lane on the left hand side of the traffic, as you pass large vehicles that you can't see over, ALWAYS assume a pedestrian WILL walk across your path. Sometimes this sees you slowing down to a gentle jog or walking pace, but better this than ploughing into a pedestrian or, as you've experienced, going over someone's bonnet.

Years ago I nearly took someone out on a zebra crossing with a motorbike (missed them by maybe a foot) because I was filtering too close and too fast to see that a double decker bus had stopped to let someone cross, rather than just being there because of the traffic in front. Had the woman on the crossing not been so aware (and stopped walking as she passed the front of the bus), the outcome could have been very different and I changed my approach to filtering rather drastically after that.


----------



## Sbudge (8 Jan 2016)

I think particularly with larger, windowless, vehicles obscuring visibility (like the van you mentioned) the speed was too high. However slowly and cautiously she tried to ease out it's hard to see how either of you would be able to see the other until it was too late. Yes, of course, you were technically in the right but you didn't give yourself much of a chance if you were unlucky and someone pulled out in front of that van at just the wrong moment. 

GWS, shoulders need quite a bit of TLC. Good luck.


----------



## EasyPeez (8 Jan 2016)

vickster said:


> Why not call BC and get advice?


I shall do just that now I'm finally back home. Cheers



Jimmy Doug said:


> I think you were going far too fast


In retrospect, I agree. At the time it didn't feel that fast, and I had slowed to what I thought felt like a 'filtering speed' as I know I'd been doing 20+ previously. I didn't actually look at my speedo so it could have been less than 15. That's a guess based on how much effort I recall putting in. It was certainly over 12mph. But whatever, on the basis that I didn't have time to see her nor she me, I guess 'too fast' is an inevitable conclusion.



Jimmy Doug said:


> Perhaps you could send us a Google street view link of the spot?


Looks far more innocuous without traffic everywhere!








Jimmy Doug said:


> Hope you get better soon and it doesn't put you off cycling


It'll take a lot more than this to put me off! Cheers. @fossyant 's story has really made me think though. I really feel for him. I've got two kids and don't want to end up with a serious injury like that. I shall certainly be reconsidering my routes and the choices I make when filtering.



Mile195 said:


> 15+ mph is ok if you were filtering on the other side of the road (had it been clear) giving you a better view of any gaps, but not otherwise.


Surely if it's too fast for one side it's too fast for the other? I appreciate your point about being able to see the junctions when on the left of the traffic, but cars can still turn across unespectedly for driveways etc, and pedestrains step out as you say. I appreciate and agree with the rest though, and am grateful to you for sharing your advice and experience.


----------



## EasyPeez (8 Jan 2016)

vickster said:


> Why not call BC and get advice?


Bah, they close early on a Friday so it'll have to wait until after the weekend.


----------



## mjr (8 Jan 2016)

Spinney said:


> No, you are not to blame.
> You could possibly have avoided this by cycling more cautiously, but in the end she pulled out in front of someone legitimately cycling along the road.


Just so. @EasyPeez was not primarily to blame, but maybe could have avoided that one.



Jimmy Doug said:


> To my mind, you did everything right. Apart from one thing. I think you were going far too fast


FFS 15mph overtaking on a road is not "far too fast" - heck, even I can do that without breathing hard! I think @Mile195 was more accurate: it was too fast for being that close to the vehicles.



EasyPeez said:


> Surely if it's too fast for one side it's too fast for the other?


I think not, as if you've a bit of gap between you and the vehicle then you've a bit more chance to see anything pulling out and take avoiding action and/or pull the brakes and they've a bit more chance to see you. Motorists overtaking cyclists without changing lane are usually wrong, but so is the other way round: give yourself "a door and a bit more" gap.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Mrs M (8 Jan 2016)

Ouch, sorry to hear about you accident.
Hope there's no long term damage to you and the bikes ok.


----------



## EasyPeez (8 Jan 2016)

mjray said:


> I think not, as if you've a bit of gap between you and the vehicle then you've a bit more chance to see anything pulling out and take avoiding action and/or pull the brakes and they've a bit more chance to see you. Motorists overtaking cyclists without changing lane are usually wrong, but so is the other way round: give yourself "a door and a bit more" gap.


Fair comment. I know from experience (I nearly hit a ped a few months ago stepping out from infront of a lorry into a cycle lane) that some cycle lanes in this city are far too narrow and the space afforded in them, especially when filtering past lorries and vans, is the same or maybe even less than I was giving on the opposite side this morning, and doesn't allow for gaps to be seen and addressed. I won't filter on the left without a cycle lane because then it's often even worse - the width of a drain cover at best. But I take your point and can see that it does apply in some/many situations. Cheers.


----------



## Pale Rider (8 Jan 2016)

I wouldn't filter that fast, but even at my advised lower speed the impact would have been much the same.

With that in mind, I try not to pass any junctions without the protection of a stopped or slowly moving vehicle.

In this case, it would have meant stopping beside the van, and waiting for it to pull across the junction so I could trundle across beside it.

All very easy for me to say, a moment's inattention and I could have had the same accident as you.


----------



## EasyPeez (8 Jan 2016)

Bike in Halfords for the weekend so that they can give it a full check-over (noticed some play in the headset this afternoon so concerned the carbon steerer might be damaged? and the 'fixed' bent hanger is not quite perfect, as Stu warned me it might not be, so will take a new one at this point I think). Incident logged with the very polite local plod, who were happy to offer advice in terms of accepting cash and insurance claims etc. 
Have spoken to the lady again just now on the phone. She was less concerned for my well-being than I would have been were the situation reversed (as in never asked!), and not at all happy to agreeing to pay for anything when I told her about the cracked helmet and minor damage to some bike parts. Fair enough I suppose, nobody wants to agree to paying out for something they don't know the cost of. We agreed that I'd ring her with the bill next week, and she said she'd decide then whether to cover the cost or go down the insurance route.
Shoulder is only getting worse not better so will see how a weekend of rest does me and then get a check-up.
Thanks again for all your words of encouragment and wisdom.
Might try to track down some kind of 'worst cycling crashes' video now to make me feel better!
Cheers, have a good weekend all and try to stay safe.


----------



## Pale Rider (8 Jan 2016)

EasyPeez said:


> Bike in Halfords for the weekend so that they can give it a full check-over (noticed some play in the headset this afternoon so concerned the carbon steerer might be damaged? and the 'fixed' bent hanger is not quite perfect, as Stu warned me it might not be, so will take a new one at this point I think). Incident logged with the very polite local plod, who were happy to offer advice in terms of accepting cash and insurance claims etc.
> Have spoken to the lady again just now on the phone. She was less concerned for my well-being than I would have been were the situation reversed (as in never asked!), and not at all happy to agreeing to pay for anything when I told her about the cracked helmet and minor damage to some bike parts. Fair enough I suppose, nobody wants to agree to paying out for something they don't know the cost of. We agreed that I'd ring her with the bill next week, and she said she'd decide then whether to cover the cost or go down the insurance route.
> Shoulder is only getting worse not better so will see how a weekend of rest does me and then get a check-up.
> Thanks again for all your words of encouragment and wisdom.
> ...



The woman's reaction is not very encouraging.

Faced with a cyclist I had injured who was being very reasonable about it, I would have offered to hand deliver the money, even if the bill was a few hundred.

Much more than that and I would refer you to my insurers.

Bear in mind it is not entirely her choice to go down the insurance route, you can make a claim against her insurers.

Reported experience suggests many such simple claims - a few quid for some bike bits - are paid without a great deal of fuss.

The insurance company may not even contact their insured before paying.

That happened to a mate of mine - he only found out about a paid claim for a minor supermarket car park bump when his renewal arrived a few months later.


----------



## swee'pea99 (8 Jan 2016)

I cycle quite often down a high street where cars wriggle through gaps in the traffic from side roads to turn right. I overtake the often stationary traffic using the middle of the road and the other side wherever possible, but I do it all at very modest speed - not a whole lot above walking pace, slowing down to walking pace or less when passing buses, vans or anything else I literally can't see through/past. 

As a general rule, I avoid ever riding into 'blind spots' - ie, places where I can't see what might be there/emerging - any faster than allows me to stop safely 'if worst comes to worst'. As an even more general rule, I try always to ride in such a way that _whatever anyone else does_ I will be ok. It's impossible, of course, to be 100% guaranteed safe, whatever happens. But I think it's a general mindset that's served me well over the years. There are a fair few psychos out there, and for every psycho a hundred muppets. 

Good luck with your recovery, and as others have said beware the (driver's) change of heart...


----------



## mjr (8 Jan 2016)

EasyPeez said:


> some cycle lanes in this city are far too narrow and the space afforded in them, especially when filtering past lorries and vans, is the same or maybe even less than I was giving on the opposite side this morning, and doesn't allow for gaps to be seen and addressed


I can believe it. I would suggest remembering that it wasn't your fault and that I may be complacent because I rarely filter any more (mostly I'm on the local OK-to-good cycle tracks - today was the first time I'd filtered for ages and it was between two lines of cars waiting at traffic lights to get level with my turning on the left).


----------



## vickster (8 Jan 2016)

That certainly doesn't look to be a very wide road to be filtering at such speeds in queuing traffic, I'd be doing 10 max and looking out like a meerkat, traffic coming tne other way I'm not sure I'd be filtering at all

Don't worry about BC being closed, you've got 3 years. But do report to the police over the weekend and I'd text her to say you've done so so she is aware as they'll contact her probably 

I wouldn't read anything into her reaction, shock and upset makes people react oddly

Your aches and pains will get worse, get a bag of peas or an ice pack on that shoulder to reduce swelling (15 minutes wrapped in a teatowel)

Make an appointment to see the GP on Monday, or go to A&E, GP may send you anyway if they think it's serious. Or if the range of motion is restricted, just go straight there over the weekend


----------



## Mile195 (9 Jan 2016)

Sorry - I think I've written it in a way that you might have misinterpreted!

"15+ mph is ok if you were filtering on the other side of the road (had it been clear) giving you a better view of any gaps, but not otherwise.".

When I said that, I didn't mean coming the other way on the other side of the road. I meant, doing exactly what you were doing (filtering up the drivers side of all the cars), but further out so you were effectively cycling in the middle of the lane on the "wrong" side of the road, rather than squeezing yourself in to the remaining couple of feet on your side between the drivers doors and the white lines.

That aside, how are you feeling today?


----------



## Andrew_P (9 Jan 2016)

You are not a fault and in your first post you acknowledged what you could have done better to maybe avoid it happening again. I hate filtering either side, and I always make a judgement on how long it will cost me to behave like a car and if it is worth the extra risk. Junctions if you know the road are easier to judge and show caution. Driveways, pedestrian refuges or pedestrians false stop are much harder to predict but for me the closest I have always come are the people who suddenly without warning see a gap and pull out to either overtake or U-turn.

The problem these days and it might be effecting the Ladies reaction is the advent of the Ambulance chasers, if she does contact her Insurance they will advise to to not admit liability and do not make any payment as this will be taken as an admission of liability even if you all sign a full and final settlement. She might be hesitant for that reason you know today £50 and tomorrow (or 2 year 360 days) she get a letter claiming for injury, distress, time off work and a full carbon bike and has the problem of trying to explain to her insurance company why she never reported it and paid you £50 to go away.. So I do understand how she might be feeling, or she could just be a callous so and so..


----------



## Andrew_P (9 Jan 2016)

Oh and forgot the important part hope the shoulder improves.


----------



## Pale Rider (9 Jan 2016)

Andrew_P said:


> You are not a fault and in your first post you acknowledged what you could have done better to maybe avoid it happening again. I hate filtering either side, and I always make a judgement on how long it will cost me to behave like a car and if it is worth the extra risk. Junctions if you know the road are easier to judge and show caution. Driveways, pedestrian refuges or pedestrians false stop are much harder to predict but for me the closest I have always come are the people who suddenly without warning see a gap and pull out to either overtake or U-turn.
> 
> The problem these days and it might be effecting the Ladies reaction is the advent of the Ambulance chasers, if she does contact her Insurance they will advise to to not admit liability and do not make any payment as this will be taken as an admission of liability even if you all sign a full and final settlement. She might be hesitant for that reason you know today £50 and tomorrow (or 2 year 360 days) she get a letter claiming for injury, distress, time off work and a full carbon bike and has the problem of trying to explain to her insurance company why she never reported it and paid you £50 to go away.. So I do understand how she might be feeling, or she could just be a callous so and so..



Which is one of the reasons - even if there's no claim - why she should report the accident to her insurers 'for information' only.

I doubt that will happen, but there's nothing to stop the OP from doing it for her.


----------



## steve292 (9 Jan 2016)

The woman has a legal requirement to report an accident involving an injury to the law, and it will be a condition of her insurance to inform the company of an accident whether she is to blame or not.
I was knocked off back in September, The guy gave me a false contact number & failed to report it, both to his insurance and the police. I wasn't hurt, but damaged the bike and my clothing. I refused to discuss any payment at the roadside. As I took photos on my phone he was busy moving the car away from the junction he had just zoomed out of.
I tracked him down through Ask mid & got an insurance claim which has now paid out. FYI the claim came to over 500 with damage to bike and gear, so not huge but not chickenfeed either. I though as you did that it would be a few quid, but not so. She thinks that she 'll bung you a 20 spot and it will all go away, when you give her a real figure watch her attitude change.
My point is, he was very eager to settle up at the time but as you can see not so much later.
Report it to her insurance. her premiums are shot anyway. don't deal direct with her you're only leaving yourself open to being arsed around.


----------



## Tin Pot (9 Jan 2016)

Yeah, time to get your head straight.

She is to blame. She owes you apologies and reparations for what she did to you. No point farking about.

People naturally justify their actions over time, and she will have listened to her friends tell her how it's all your fault, "them cyclists" etc and by day three she will believe it. It's what humans do.

The law exists for this purpose to mete out justice because people cannot do it if left to their own devices, and we in Britain are lucky to have it.

Use it.


----------



## EasyPeez (9 Jan 2016)

Mile195 said:


> Sorry - I think I've written it in a way that you might have misinterpreted!
> ing
> "15+ mph is ok if you were filtering on the other side of the road (had it been clear) giving you a better view of any gaps, but not otherwise.".
> 
> ...



Ah, sorry I did misunderstand. I thought you meant filtering to the left (i.e kerb side) of the stationary traffic.

Shoulder and neck more painful and less mobile than yesterday but luckily a rare weekend of rest and recouperation was always on the cards due to the op.
I can still lift my arm (though it's painful to do so) and turn my head from side to side (though painful when looking to the right) so I can't have broken anything. There's a rather underwhelming amount of bruising and no swelling. So I think I'll be back in the saddle in a couple of weeks. And filtering much more carefully! Thanks for asking.


----------



## EasyPeez (9 Jan 2016)

Pale Rider said:


> Bear in mind it is not entirely her choice to go down the insurance route, you can make a claim against her insurers.
> 
> Reported experience suggests many such simple claims - a few quid for some bike bits - are paid without a great deal of fuss.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I understand that it's my choice as to whether to make a claim or not. I didn't bother pointing that out on the phone when she talked about herself 'deciding to go down the insurance route' as I was very keen to be reasonable and not sound threatening. If it turns out the bike can be fixed for just a few quid and I don't have any injuries that will keep me off work then I'd sooner not make a big deal out of it. One thing I'm not 100% on though, and please forgive my naivety here, when you and others refer to an insurance company paying out without their (at fault) client's knowledge, how would that work? Am I right in thinking it would be a case of the injured party enlisting a PI lawyer, or contacting British Cycling or similar if a member, and they would be able to trace the driver's insurance details via the car registration number and would deal with them direct? Seems weird but I guess in cases where it's small amounts it's cheaper for the insurance to just cough up than pay their own legal costs. In that case would the settlement be agreed by the injured party's legal team and the insurer, with no input from the injured party nor the at-fault driver? Presumably based on whatever repair bills and/or doctor's report info the injured party supplied to their lawyer?



vickster said:


> But do report to the police over the weekend and I'd text her to say you've done so so she is aware as they'll contact her probably. I wouldn't read anything into her reaction, shock and upset makes people react oddly


Yeah, I contacted them on Friday evening. The chap was very polite and helpful. I had rung her prior to explain that I needed to contact them in case I wasn't able to go in to work next week or in case she had discovered damage to her car and wanted to make a claim of her own. She seemed surprised but compliant. I asked if she had reported it to her insurance or the police and she said she hadn't. She said she was happy for me to give them her number but they didn't want it when I offered it.




vickster said:


> Or if the range of motion is restricted, just go straight there over the weekend


Motion very much restricted and I'm in a fair amount of pain. Can't really bend or lift anything. I'm not able to drive just yet and my wife can't drive so have decided to give it til Monday when I figure I will hopefully be safe to steer by then, or else I can get a friend to give me a lift. I'm pretty sure it's just bruising and/or straining to muscles and possibly tendons.



steve292 said:


> The woman has a legal requirement to report an accident involving an injury to the law, and it will be a condition of her insurance to inform the company of an accident whether she is to blame or not.


I'm pretty sure she hasn't done that. I only have her landline so can't send a quick text. I'll mention it when I speak to her again next week. Although she might have heard from the police anyway by then, but I'm not sure they'll contact her in relation to my incident report. I wasn't looking to get her in trouble and they said they didn't need her phone number.



steve292 said:


> FYI the claim came to over 500 with damage to bike and gear, so not huge but not chickenfeed either.


Glad you got it sorted  I can't see my damage coming to more than £60-80 for a new helmet, saddle bag bracket and rear hanger, unless Halfords discover anything I've missed. Not sure what a new carbon steerer costs if that's gone. Was your payout for a new bike or replacement bits?


----------



## Pale Rider (9 Jan 2016)

As @steve292 said in post 32, you get her insurance company's name from the askmid website.

You then contact their claims department and say you wish to make a claim against their insured - the woman.

I believe you are right when you say claims for a few hundred are paid, partly at least, because it's not worth the hassle and expense for the insurance company to fight them, assuming the claim appears genuine which yours will.

As I mentioned earlier, the insurance company may not contact her, but what they do on that side of it is up to them, and is of no interest to you.

From your point of view, you are dealing solely with the insurance company, which as you can imagine takes a lot of heat out of the transaction.

You have nothing to lose by making a claim, the worst the insurance company can do is reject it, but they are obliged to look at it fairly.

Actually, you do have something to lose, it will cost you four quid to get her insurance details.

http://www.askmid.com/askmidenquiry.aspx


----------



## vickster (9 Jan 2016)

Don't drive if you don't feel right. Get a taxi and keep the receipt


----------



## raleighnut (10 Jan 2016)

EasyPeez said:


> Yeah, I understand that it's my choice as to whether to make a claim or not. I didn't bother pointing that out on the phone when she talked about herself 'deciding to go down the insurance route' as I was very keen to be reasonable and not sound threatening. If it turns out the bike can be fixed for just a few quid and I don't have any injuries that will keep me off work then I'd sooner not make a big deal out of it.
> 
> 
> Glad you got it sorted  I can't see my damage coming to more than £60-80 for a new helmet, saddle bag bracket and rear hanger, unless Halfords discover anything I've missed. Not sure what a new carbon steerer costs if that's gone. Was your payout for a new bike or replacement bits?



The Steerer is part of the front fork, any damage and its a new fork, plus they'll probably need to fit a new headset although only part of it is needed (bottom race) they'll charge you for a full one


----------



## si_c (10 Jan 2016)

Sorry to hear about the crash 


EasyPeez said:


> Motion very much restricted and I'm in a fair amount of pain. Can't really bend or lift anything. I'm not able to drive just yet and my wife can't drive so have decided to give it til Monday when I figure I will hopefully be safe to steer by then, or else I can get a friend to give me a lift. I'm pretty sure it's just bruising and/or straining to muscles and possibly tendons.



I'd get myself down to A&E just to get checked out sooner rather than later if I were you. After I broke my collarbone, it was agony and I was unable to move my arm, lift anything, or move my neck freely. Even if they just say it's badly bruised and to take it easy, at least you'll know one way or the other.

Hope you get everything sorted and GWS.


----------



## raleighnut (10 Jan 2016)

si_c said:


> Sorry to hear about the crash
> 
> 
> I'd get myself down to A&E just to get checked out sooner rather than later if I were you. After I broke my collarbone, it was agony and I was unable to move my arm, lift anything, or move my neck freely. Even if they just say it's badly bruised and to take it easy, at least you'll know one way or the other.
> ...


+1, its easily possible to break a collarbone and not really know that you have until it has been X-rayed DAMHIKT.


----------



## Lemond (10 Jan 2016)

Personally, I'd be blaming myself. I know that I'm less visible on my bike and act / ride accordingly. Secondly, if I couldn't see her, why should I expect her to see me? Filtering past a stationery line of traffic is risky, as you cannot see junctions on your left, and equally, cannot be seen by traffic waiting to move out. When passing the van, what actions did you take to ensure the way ahead was clear? Sounds like six of one, half a dozen of another to me. But that's just me.


----------



## mjr (10 Jan 2016)

Yes, I'm pretty sure that's just @Lemond. Maybe it could have been avoided but the motorist drove into the SIDE of the bike, trusting an invitation from the van to drive out blind, which is pretty damning.


----------



## Lemond (10 Jan 2016)

mjray said:


> Yes, I'm pretty sure that's just @Lemond. Maybe it could have been avoided but the motorist drove into the SIDE of the bike, trusting an invitation from the van to drive out blind, which is pretty damning.



So you have a choice: trust yourself or trust, say, a van driver will check his mirrors for an approaching bike before inviting the car out. 

Filtering past stationery traffic is not without risk. Take precautions for yourself; don't assume other road users will do this for you. Seems sensible to me.


----------



## goody (10 Jan 2016)

Maybe you couldn't see her pulling out but you could see the gap between the van and the car in front and if you knew the road you should have been aware of the junction and the possibility that a car may pull out of that gap. If there was no traffic coming the other way move way over to the right (into the opposite carriageway) to increase your field of view if it's not clear then slow right down. Maybe you have a claim or maybe sometimes we need to take a bit of responsibility for what happens to us, but whatever it's not much consolation if you're in the right but laying in the gutter injured.


----------



## mjr (10 Jan 2016)

Lemond said:


> Filtering past stationery traffic is not without risk. Take precautions for yourself; don't assume other road users will do this for you. Seems sensible to me.


Yes and many of us old hands will have seen enough madness to take those precautions but that does not make the OP equally to blame with the motorist who T boned them!


----------



## Lemond (10 Jan 2016)

mjray said:


> Yes and many of us old hands will have seen enough madness to take those precautions but that does not make the OP equally to blame with the motorist who T boned them!



Why not? Neither could see the other.


----------



## Julia9054 (10 Jan 2016)

I once nearly hit a blind man and his dog who stepped out crossing the road between two vehicles as I filtered on the right. This would have made me the worst type of human! I filter much more slowly now.
Hope your shoulder gets better soon.


----------



## steve292 (10 Jan 2016)

EasyPeez said:


> I'm pretty sure she hasn't done that. I only have her landline so can't send a quick text. I'll mention it when I speak to her again next week. Although she might have heard from the police anyway by then, but I'm not sure they'll contact her in relation to my incident report. I wasn't looking to get her in trouble and they said they didn't need her phone number.
> 
> 
> Glad you got it sorted  I can't see my damage coming to more than £60-80 for a new helmet, saddle bag bracket and rear hanger, unless Halfords discover anything I've missed. Not sure what a new carbon steerer costs if that's gone. Was your payout for a new bike or replacement bits?



Well, if she hasn't reported it, she's either trying to wing it, or she does not understand how the law and insurance companies work.
I can understand you wanting to do the right thing and sort it amicably, but in IME people who don't ride generally suffer from massive sticker shock when told the price of replacement bits for a bike.

Look at it this way.
Whatever some people on here tell you, you had every right to filter. She is 100% at fault.
You have come out of it pretty lightly by the sound of it, but it could have been much worse. I would seek to be put back into the same position re the bike and gear as I was in before the collision, which to me is fair.
You say you are hurt? Do yourself a favour.Get to a doctor.

Just to show how easy the money racks up-

105 carbon pedals £100
fizik aliante carbon saddle £165
Morvelo bibs and jersey £150
broken mobile screen £100
Askmid fee £4
Plus bar tape plugs ect.
you don't need a big off to rack up the cash.

Bottom line is if you pull across traffic, its your responsibility to make sure its clear.It's your fault if you hit someone in the carriageway.


----------



## Spinney (10 Jan 2016)

Because the OP was cycling along the road that the motorist turned into. The onus is on the motorist to make sure the way is clear before pulling into/across traffic.
Just because the OP could have (possibly) avoided it by riding more defensively does _not_ make it his fault in any way.


----------



## mjr (10 Jan 2016)

Lemond said:


> Why not? Neither could see the other.


Even if we might have chosen to see more around the corner, the road was clear when the cyclist entered it and the cycle was continuing ahead on the major route. This is much more obviously the motorist's fault for not being able to stop within what they could see to be clear than the common cyclist-over-front-wing collisions.


----------



## Lemond (10 Jan 2016)

I think the OP says it all really...

I am doing 15-16mph at this point and being as observant as poss, but clearly not observant enough as before I know what is happening a car pulls across my path from my left, obv pulling out to turn right into the free flowing lane. As she pulled out in front of a stationary van *she had not seen me coming, nor was I able to see and anticipate the junction with her car pulling out*.


----------



## vickster (10 Jan 2016)

Not the OPs fault in the eyes of the law but he does recognise he could have been riding more defensively if you read the first post 

@EasyPeez have you been to the hospital yet? If not, go today


----------



## EasyPeez (10 Jan 2016)

Pale Rider said:


> you get her insurance company's name from the askmid website


I'd never heard of that website so wasn't sure how official it was. Thanks.



raleighnut said:


> The Steerer is part of the front fork, any damage and its a new fork, plus they'll probably need to fit a new headset although only part of it is needed (bottom race) they'll charge you for a full one


Having serviced the headset on my other bike just a couple of months ago I should have realised that. Hoping it isn't damaged then as new forks won't be cheap.



si_c said:


> After I broke my collarbone, it was agony and I was unable to move my arm, lift anything, or move my neck freely. Even if they just say it's badly bruised and to take it easy, at least you'll know one way or the other.


I'm pretty sure my collarbones are intact; I've given them a good poke and no pain. The pain is all at the back, around my shoulder blade. It's more bending and twisting of the torso, or trying to lift anything, than moving the arm itself that causes sharp pains in my shoulder and neck. Hence I'm sure it's bruising/straining rather than any breaks. Am going to get checked out tomorrow though. Cheers. 



Lemond said:


> Personally, I'd be blaming myself. I know that I'm less visible on my bike and act / ride accordingly. Secondly, if I couldn't see her, why should I expect her to see me?


I do accept that some of my choices could have been better, as mentioned in my original post. Advice on riding style in such situations and how to avoid a repeat of this is/was actually the point of this thread, if you read my OP. As to the "why should I expect her to see me" bit, I don't necessarily expect her to see me. I expect her not to drive into a space if she can't see it's safe to do so. She was the one who crossed a white line, not me. If she couldn't see the way was clear, she shouldn't have done that. Do you drive out of junctions if you can't see that the road you're turning into is clear? I don't. 
To put it another way, if that had been a pedestrian crossing rather than a junction, I as the cyclist would not have been able to see (because of the van) whether or not a pedestrian was waiting to/starting to cross. And so I would have stopped alongside the van and checked, then resumed riding if it was clear. If for some reason I couldn't see to the kerb past the van I wouldn't cycle across. The pedestrian crossing would have been obvious to me (which the junction was not) because it would have stretched right across the road in front of me. Surely the same principle applies to her? The junction stretched right across the road in her path, she was well aware of it yet chose to drive across it when she (presumably) couldn't see past the van to know whether or not it was safe to do so.



goody said:


> if you knew the road you should have been aware of the junction and the possibility that a car may pull out of that gap


It's not on my normal route so I didn't know there was a junction there.



steve292 said:


> Well, if she hasn't reported it, she's either trying to wing it, or she does not understand how the law and insurance companies work.


I'm pretty sure it's the latter.


----------



## vickster (10 Jan 2016)

Ask the hospital to do an X-ray or preferably an MRI

If I had done so I might not be in the potentially fruitless position of arguing that my Labral tear is the result of my accident and facing up to surgery and potentially 8 weeks not working and no salary


----------



## Pale Rider (10 Jan 2016)

EasyPeez said:


> I'd never heard of that website so wasn't sure how official it was. Thanks.



Sound advice from @vickster about a hospital visit.

I know you are not keen on the insurance route, but were you to ring her company on Monday to start the claim, and were you to also mention the shoulder pain, you might find her insurers will offer to assist with/pay for a medical examination.

I've known that to happen in a situation similar to yours.


----------



## EasyPeez (11 Jan 2016)

Thanks for the advice @vickster & @Pale Rider

I went to the walk-in minor injuries clinic this morning and the lady there reckons there's no fracturing and the pain is from bruising and consequent contraction of my trapezius muscle. She was concerned about my shoulder blade sticking out further on that side than the other and a nasty clunking/grinding sound when I rotate that shoulder so have been referred to physio to get that looked at, though she seemed sure it would be to do with a tendon running over the bone rather than any damage to the bone itself.

Still waiting for an update on the bike.

This has certainly all been good life experience!



vickster said:


> Ask the hospital to do an X-ray or preferably an MRI
> 
> If I had done so I might not be in the potentially fruitless position of arguing that my Labral tear is the result of my accident and facing up to surgery and potentially 8 weeks not working and no salary



I didn't see this in time to act on it. No X-Ray was done as it's pretty clear I haven't broken anything. Although having broken my hands a few years ago I'm not sure if this muscle pain isn't worse?! Anyway, I'll see what the physio says and ask them about an X-Ray.
Really sorry to hear about your issues. A labral tear sounds nasty. Hope you're not in too much pain day-to-day and the surgery fixes it. Is it keeping you off the bike for now?

Cheers.


----------



## vickster (11 Jan 2016)

EasyPeez said:


> Thanks for the advice @vickster & @Pale Rider
> 
> I went to the walk-in minor injuries clinic this morning and the lady there reckons there's no fracturing and the pain is from bruising and consequent contraction of my trapezius muscle. She was concerned about my shoulder blade sticking out further on that side than the other and a nasty clunking/grinding sound when I rotate that shoulder so have been referred to physio to get that looked at, though she seemed sure it would be to do with a tendon running over the bone rather than any damage to the bone itself.
> 
> ...


Not off bike but I do suffer after cycling. Reckon it will keep me off the bike for most of not all of next spring/summer. No driving for 8 weeks but luckily surgeon has advised that I should be able to work after 2 weeks or so!

GWS. Lots of ice, heat and rest for that shoulder. Do what the Physio says. Assuming you are using nhs, hopefully not too long to wait (it's 8-12 weeks here)!

My shoulder crunches horrendously and feels unstable and out of place. My whole arm hurts when I do certain things too hence needing the surgery


----------



## EasyPeez (11 Jan 2016)

vickster said:


> My shoulder crunches horrendously and feels unstable and out of place. My whole arm hurts when I do certain things too hence needing the surgery


Glad you're still enjoying the freedom of cycling.
I assume the labral tear would have shown up on an X-ray, but you didn't have one done at the time of your accident? I'll mention the possibility to the physio but as I have pretty much full mobility of my arm and no feeling of instability I suppose it's highly unlikely I have a problem in that area.
I hope your recovery goes well - it'll require a lot of rest and patience during the healing process I guess, two things I'm not very good at! Best wishes.


----------



## Pale Rider (11 Jan 2016)

Isn't physio one of the things that can be a bit hard to get on the NHS?

I grasp your reluctance to make an insurance claim, and I might well feel the same way in the circumstances.

But if you are going to need a lot of out patient treatment, her insurers ought to know about it for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, they should cover any expenses.

Secondly, in the unlikely event your treatment is not as straightforward as looks likely, a claim underway now will stand you in very good stead if things don't go as well as predicted.


----------



## vickster (11 Jan 2016)

EasyPeez said:


> Glad you're still enjoying the freedom of cycling.
> I assume the labral tear would have shown up on an X-ray, but you didn't have one done at the time of your accident? I'll mention the possibility to the physio but as I have pretty much full mobility of my arm and no feeling of instability I suppose it's highly unlikely I have a problem in that area.
> I hope your recovery goes well - it'll require a lot of rest and patience during the healing process I guess, two things I'm not very good at! Best wishes.


No showed up on MRI as the surgeon suspected what he was looking for after examination. I'm an atypical case as they are most often seen in rugby players or baseball pitchers! I would think bruising is much more likely!

No X-ray done, soft tissue injury only diagnosed. Tbh the shoulder was the least of my worries, the leg injury was much worse


----------



## EasyPeez (11 Jan 2016)

Pale Rider said:


> Isn't physio one of the things that can be a bit hard to get on the NHS?
> 
> I grasp your reluctance to make an insurance claim, and I might well feel the same way in the circumstances.
> 
> ...



I see what you're saying. I think my reasons for not making a claim at this stage are:
a) I haven't actually been diagnosed with anything beyond bruising and swelling
b) I still don't know what the cost of repair to the bike will be
c) I don't know what the physio will say or how many appointments I'll need. It may be just one appointment.
d) As per some of the responses above, I can see that the accident stemmed in part from some of my actions re: choosing to filter and not cycling more slowly

I expect a report on damage to the bike within the next couple of days, and a phone-call back from the NHS about a physio appt later today. Based on the woman's response on the phone it sounds like anything upwards of £50 on bike repairs will result in me needing to make a claim. If that's the case I was going to make the claim when the report comes through in the next day or two, and mention the referral to physio at that point. My medical notes were updated this morning so there'll be evidence that I've reported my injury and sought medical attention.
If the bike report comes back as just a new mech hanger then I was planning to bill the lady for helmet and mech hanger and forget about any claim. Then if when I see the physio it turns out some longer-term treatment/multiple appts ar required, start a claim at that point.

It feels a bit weak and sketchy to me to ring an insurance company and say "I want to make a claim because I have some damage to my bike and some injury", to which I assume they would ask "What damage and what injury?" and I'd say "erm, not sure".

Am I being daft?


----------



## vickster (11 Jan 2016)

I didn't decide to make a claim until I needed surgery and time of work. I'd been in my job for 3 weeks so no pay for 2 weeks


----------



## Pale Rider (11 Jan 2016)

EasyPeez said:


> I
> 
> Am I being daft?



No, quite the reverse, you are making a calm and rational plan to progress the matter.

Inevitably, there will be multiple contact with the insurance company, and they will want things done their way.

Early contact would get you both singing from the same sheet sooner rather than later.

For example, the insurance company may ask for multiple quotes, or may want to send an assessor, or may accept a single quote, or may ask for a pic, or may....

And that's just for the bike.

They may ask for a medical examination, or may not, they may offer to pay for treatment, or may not, or may want a letter from your doc, or may....

None of the above is a big problem, but the sooner you know what the insurance company requires of you, the sooner you will be able to comply with it, which in turn will make the claim as hassle free as possible.

Also, you are obliged to keep the cost of the claim as low as reasonably possible.

The insurance company may have ways of fixing you and/or the bike which are cheaper than you can access, but still get the jobs done to a good standard.

They cannot avail you of those services if they don't know you need them.

My suggestion would be to make that call sooner rather than later, although @vickster's experience is helpful because it tells you the option is still there to make the claim at a later date.


----------



## vickster (11 Jan 2016)

You have 3 years to start a PI claim, 6 years for damage to property

There's no rush if you aren't sure or comfortable doing it. It is a slow process however especially if you are out of pocket. My OOP so far is around 2k, although I've not pushed for interim payment


----------



## vickster (11 Jan 2016)

EasyPeez said:


> I see what you're saying. I think my reasons for not making a claim at this stage are:
> a) I haven't actually been diagnosed with anything beyond bruising and swelling
> b) I still don't know what the cost of repair to the bike will be
> c) I don't know what the physio will say or how many appointments I'll need. It may be just one appointment.
> ...



That's why taking advice from BC's lawyers is sensible. They may not get very involved if it's just a small amount for the bike, they make their dosh from long drawn out injury claims but getting their advice might be invaluable even just how to go about stuff


----------



## RichardB (13 Jan 2016)

Shoulder injuries are nasty. I had a fall back in September (nothing to do with bikes or alcohol) and damaged my shoulder. It was incredibly painful and almost completely immobile. I went to see the nurse at the GP's a few days later and got a huge rocket for not going straight to A&E. I've now got about half the movement back and the pain is lessening, but it's taking a very long time. And I got an X-ray in A&E which showed arthritis in the joint. I had injured the same shoulder about ten years ago but didn't get any treatment, and now I have arthritis and will never be completely pain-free or have full movement - so get yours properly looked at and treated. And GWS, of course.


----------



## EasyPeez (13 Jan 2016)

RichardB said:


> Shoulder injuries are nasty. I had a fall back in September (nothing to do with bikes or alcohol) and damaged my shoulder. It was incredibly painful and almost completely immobile. I went to see the nurse at the GP's a few days later and got a huge rocket for not going straight to A&E. I've now got about half the movement back and the pain is lessening, but it's taking a very long time. And I got an X-ray in A&E which showed arthritis in the joint. I had injured the same shoulder about ten years ago but didn't get any treatment, and now I have arthritis and will never be completely pain-free or have full movement - so get yours properly looked at and treated. And GWS, of course.



Thanks. It is easing gradually with each passing day. Got a physio appointment and only need to wait until next Tues, which I was pleasantly surprised at. Sorry to hear about your arthritis - my mum is riddled with that in her hands from a career as a typist so I know how horrible it can be. Thanks for your advice. Andy


----------



## RichardB (14 Jan 2016)

EasyPeez said:


> Thanks. It is easing gradually with each passing day. Got a physio appointment and only need to wait until next Tues, which I was pleasantly surprised at. Sorry to hear about your arthritis - my mum is riddled with that in her hands from a career as a typist so I know how horrible it can be. Thanks for your advice. Andy


I have been having physio for the shoulder, and it's baffling me. I expected a set of exercises to restore movement to the joint, but instead my physio is giving me ab crunches and planks - stuff to build up my core, as he says the core supports the shoulder. And a lot of stretches for my hamstrings as I need to be more flexible. I'm no expert, and he could well be right, but I'd be interested to know what exercises you are prescribed, as the ones I am getting don't make much sense to me.


----------



## Julia9054 (14 Jan 2016)

RichardB said:


> I have been having physio for the shoulder, and it's baffling me. I expected a set of exercises to restore movement to the joint, but instead my physio is giving me ab crunches and planks - stuff to build up my core, as he says the core supports the shoulder. And a lot of stretches for my hamstrings as I need to be more flexible. I'm no expert, and he could well be right, but I'd be interested to know what exercises you are prescribed, as the ones I am getting don't make much sense to me.


I had physio for my shoulder - problems caused by scarring in the joint from an old rotator cuff injury. I also had muscle strenthening exercises though mine were mostly focussed on my upper back and poor posture as well as core. Completely pain free for the last 2 years! And i only had 2 sessions!


----------



## RichardB (14 Jan 2016)

Julia9054 said:


> I had physio for my shoulder - problems caused by scarring in the joint from an old rotator cuff injury. I also had muscle strenthening exercises though mine were mostly focussed on my upper back and poor posture as well as core. Completely pain free for the last 2 years! And i only had 2 sessions!


Sounds like me, then. I think the original (untreated) injury was a tear of the rotator cuff, and the X-ray showed irregularities in one of the bones which the doctor said were arthritis. The joint is a lot more mobile, but moving in certain directions gives a horrible grating feeling which you can actually hear. I can cycle fine, although it gets tired and painful after a while, except when I hit a pothole, when the shock up the arm can be quite , er, shocking. Good to hear that you are now pain-free. Long may that continue, and I hope I will get there too


----------



## vickster (14 Jan 2016)

Mine crunches away, feels unstable, hurts like crazy around the shoulder and also down through my arm. I have to crunch it into place when I get up in the morning. I've been diagnosed with a posterior labral tear confirmed by MRI. It's being surgically repaired on 16 March, as about 9 months of physio hasn't helped. It was initially diagnosed as biceps tendinitis due to crummy posture, posture is indeed crummy but not the primary cause it seems

I had a sports massage on Monday to try to loosen up tight muscles that have gone crazy trying to stabilise the shoulder, ouch!


----------



## EasyPeez (14 Jan 2016)

RichardB said:


> my physio is giving me ab crunches and planks - stuff to build up my core, as he says the core supports the shoulder. And a lot of stretches for my hamstrings as I need to be more flexible.


Those were exactly the exercises I have been doing of my own accord for the last few months to try to improve my posture and comfort/performance in the saddle. If by ab crunches you mean a sit-up style exercise you might want to be careful as I think (happy to be shot down here) there's lots of recent evidence to say they only work part of your core and can actually cause quite severe back/disc problems. I've been doing 'bicycle crunches' instead - 

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FGilxCbdz8


What kind of length/reps do they recommend for planking, out of interest?

I'll certainly let you know what exercises I'm prescribed. Cheers.



vickster said:


> I had a sports massage on Monday


Not prescribed on the NHS I don't suppose? That would be a bonus if the physio books me in for a series of free massages....


----------



## vickster (14 Jan 2016)

[QUOTE="EasyPeez, post: 4104793, member: 38443]


Not prescribed on the NHS I don't suppose? That would be a bonus if the physio books me in for a series of free massages....[/QUOTE]

@EasyPeez 
No private. Cost me £22.50 for half an hour (a bit cheaper than usual). My private Physio will do trigger release, acupuncture/dry needling, ultrasound, exercises with me etc but in half an hour can only focus on one body part. The massage covered back, neck, shoulders, calves and hamstrings. Worth every penny if it makes me more comfortable especially at work

I've not had nhs Physio for many years but my understanding is that it is much less hands on being more time pressured than private. You'll get assessed and a sheet of exercises. The main stretch for my shoulder is the sleeper stretch

If you were claiming, you could get your private rehab paid for


----------



## TheJDog (14 Jan 2016)

In the bike safe course I took they told us the story of the guy on a motorbike filtering up the outside like this who got dragged 100 yards back up the road by a driver who didn't even notice he'd taken him out and got him lodged under the front of his car. Dead, of course. You gotta be careful.


----------



## EasyPeez (14 Jan 2016)

vickster said:


> I've not had nhs Physio for many years but my understanding is that it is much less hands on being more time pressured than private.


I see. Worth an ask I suppose, but I expect to be sent on my way with a sheet of exercises and nothing more tbh.



vickster said:


> If you were claiming, you could get your private rehab paid for


Based on conversation with Halfords last night (both wheels need truing, new fork bung and mech hanger required etc) it looks like I will have to make a claim after all. I'm still only interested in getting back to where I was before the accident though, not out for whatever I can get, so unless the physio finds something problematic next week I can't see me pursuing private rehab. Been in touch with BC, who have been great. Cheers.


----------



## EasyPeez (14 Jan 2016)

TheJDog said:


> In the bike safe course I took they told us the story of the guy on a motorbike filtering up the outside like this who got dragged 100 yards back up the road by a driver who didn't even notice he'd taken him out and got him lodged under the front of his car. Dead, of course. You gotta be careful.



Jesus! How could anyone not notice that?! Was the course leader's take on it that you're in the wrong to filter? Or just making you aware of the risks?


----------



## RichardB (14 Jan 2016)

EasyPeez said:


> Those were exactly the exercises I have been doing of my own accord for the last few months to try to improve my posture and comfort/performance in the saddle. If by ab crunches you mean a sit-up style exercise you might want to be careful as I think (happy to be shot down here) there's lots of recent evidence to say they only work part of your core and can actually cause quite severe back/disc problems. I've been doing 'bicycle crunches' instead -
> 
> View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FGilxCbdz8
> 
> ...



I was using ab crunches as a kind of shorthand. He calls it 'hollow body hold' and has me lying on my back with legs and arms off the floor for as long as possible. Start with knees up and elbows by ears, and extend as you get stronger. 30 sec to 1 min at a time, and as many times in a day as you can manage. It's pretty strenuous if you push yourself. The plank he gave me was on elbows and toes with bum in the air. so you feel the tension in the core, not the back. Not as bad as proper planking. Same timing and reps. Bicycle crunches look good. Will have a try.


----------



## EasyPeez (15 Jan 2016)

RichardB said:


> I was using ab crunches as a kind of shorthand. He calls it 'hollow body hold' and has me lying on my back with legs and arms off the floor for as long as possible. Start with knees up and elbows by ears, and extend as you get stronger. 30 sec to 1 min at a time, and as many times in a day as you can manage. It's pretty strenuous if you push yourself. The plank he gave me was on elbows and toes with bum in the air. so you feel the tension in the core, not the back. Not as bad as proper planking. Same timing and reps. Bicycle crunches look good. Will have a try.



Sounds good. Not sure what the difference is in what you describe and 'proper planking'? Is it the bum up bit, rather than creating a straight line with your body?

I had built up (over 6 months) to doing 90 secs x 6 with a 1 min gap in-between, 3 times a week for planks and bike crunches, plus 25 x 6 press-ups 3 times a week and some upper body bar work and leg stretches. It was definately all improving my posture and comfort in the saddle, plus some visual muscle toning bonuses were noticeable. 2 weeks off over Christmas plus however long it takes for my shoulder to heal though and I reckon I'll be back to square one


----------



## vickster (15 Jan 2016)

Speak to the Physio, there may be nothing stopping you doing the exercises. Depends what and where the issue is 

Is it still improving?


----------



## EasyPeez (15 Jan 2016)

vickster said:


> Speak to the Physio, there may be nothing stopping you doing the exercises. Depends what and where the issue is
> 
> Is it still improving?


My current shoulder pain and reduced mobility is definately stopping me - I don't need a physio to tell me that! It's improving each day but I have been in constant pain since Friday and was virtually immobile above the waist for the weekend. Confident it will be back to normal in another week or two, but still nowhere near up to press ups and planks! Cheers


----------



## vickster (15 Jan 2016)

No but the shoulder is a complex joint. My diagnosis has gone from biceps tendinitis to ac impingement to Labral tear, always possibly bly the cause of the previous diagnoses 

Initially from the accident non specific soft tissue damage and bruising

The rehab will vary based on what is injured


----------



## TheJDog (15 Jan 2016)

EasyPeez said:


> Jesus! How could anyone not notice that?! Was the course leader's take on it that you're in the wrong to filter? Or just making you aware of the risks?



I think he was just saying that there are drivers out there who will kill you and not even notice.


----------



## EasyPeez (20 Jan 2016)

Finally got the bike back on Monday. New mech hanger, wheels trued, new bung in steerer, so nothing major but some labour time involved. Because it took so long to get sorted the nice mechanic at Halfords said he'd put it through as a free 6 week check. What are the chances?!

Anyway, I rang the lady to tell her the 'good news' just now and to say that it was just the saddle bag bracket (£16.50 inc postage) and new helmet (£35) that I needed replacing and she said she had followed my advice and spoken to the police and they had told her not to pay any money and to advise me to make a claim.

So now I'm out of pocket on new bits and have to put in a piddling claim. Also have a horrible feeling that in knowing I was dazed and didn't get any witness details she will have bent the truth when reporting the incident and I might have a job on getting her insurance company to accept liability.

Physio appt was useful. Problems with shoulder position and exercises given. They've asked me to go back in 2 weeks. Feeling well enough to get back in the saddle for a few miles for the first time today though


----------



## raleighnut (20 Jan 2016)

Claim on her insurance, it'll put her premium up for years but I'd make sure you tell her this. Oh and I'd request an accident report from the rozzers too.


----------



## EasyPeez (20 Jan 2016)

raleighnut said:


> Claim on her insurance, it'll put her premium up for years but I'd make sure you tell her this.



I said on the phone that I was trying to be nice by not making a claim and that I thought that the impact on her premiums would come to more than a new helmet and bracket. Her response was that she wanted to follow police advice and that a claim "won't make any difference to me because I'm 47 and only pay £14 a month".
Expecting a drawn-out faff at best from her insurers now, possibly a contesting of the whole thing. 



raleighnut said:


> Oh and I'd request an accident report from the rozzers too


I have the incident number from when I logged it with them. As they didn't attend the scene I don't know what else they would have/be willing to give me?


----------



## vickster (20 Jan 2016)

Get Leigh Day to send you the paperwork. You add the police incidence details in that

Claim for the injuries too, will have more impact on her premiums, does she know you were hurt?


----------



## classic33 (20 Jan 2016)

If a solicitor is now involved, I'd keep all contact with her to a minimum. 
Police will have time of the incident, location and the names of those involved.

There will be a short period when you'll be out of pocket. Some seem to be aware of this, don't let it put you off. This is where the receipts are important.


----------



## Drago (20 Jan 2016)

Police didn't tell her that. That's civil legal advice.


----------



## RichardB (20 Jan 2016)

EasyPeez said:


> Sounds good. Not sure what the difference is in what you describe and 'proper planking'? Is it the bum up bit, rather than creating a straight line with your body?



To me, a 'proper' plank is on toes and elbows with the back completely straight, and is (for me at least) very strenuous. I don't think I have managed a whole minute yet. The one recommended to me was with the bum in the air, and you can certainly feel the pull in your abs, but it seems to be easier on the lower back.


----------



## EasyPeez (21 Jan 2016)

vickster said:


> does she know you were hurt?


I mentioned that I had a shoulder injury and was enrolled on a course of physio but wasn't looking to make a claim for that.



classic33 said:


> If a solicitor is now involved, I'd keep all contact with her to a minimum


Yeah, I only rang her yesterday because she'd given me to understand that she would be happy to pay for damages in cash if it was a small amount. Now she's changed her tune on that one I won't be contacting her again.



classic33 said:


> This is where the receipts are important


I have a receipt for my bracket but not the helmet as it's over a year old. Hopefully just photos of knackered items sent to the solicitor suffices when there are no receipts?



Drago said:


> Police didn't tell her that. That's civil legal advice


You might be right, but when I made the initial incident report I asked the bobby on the phone if he could give me some advice and he was pretty free and easy with it, so I'm not sure.


----------



## EasyPeez (21 Jan 2016)

RichardB said:


> To me, a 'proper' plank is on toes and elbows with the back completely straight, and is (for me at least) very strenuous. I don't think I have managed a whole minute yet. The one recommended to me was with the bum in the air, and you can certainly feel the pull in your abs, but it seems to be easier on the lower back.


Yeah, them's the ones. Glad it's not just me feeling the pain!


----------



## EasyPeez (28 Apr 2017)

Hi,

So after months of submitting extra bits of evidence and hearing nothing back, I today received the letter below from Leigh Day solicitors, acting on my behalf and engaged by British Cycling after I initially rang them to ask for advice.

I never actually wanted to make a claim for this, I wanted the lady to do the right thing and buy me a new helmet. She accepted blame verbally at the time and said she would make good my costs, but then changed tack when I rang her the following day. So I contacted BC for advice and they suggested I should make a claim against her and put me in touch with LD. They advised that a claim in respect of a new helmet and damaged clothing would not be viable but that as I had to have physio etc for my injuries in the aftermath I had a good chance of winning a claim for these injury and damaged property elements combined. So I took their advice and gave them permission to go ahead on m behalf.

I have tried to contact LD today to clarify a few things in the letter but the solicitor in question is not available for the next few days. I would appreciate advice from anyone with more experience of the legal system than me.

If I understand the letter correctly I am being offered a settlement of 20% of £600 - i.e £120, but this is on the condition that I accept 80% of the blame for the incident, and this acceptance then effectively serves as an admission of guilt on my part for any counter claim the defendant might bring against me?
I am very reluctant to accept this offer. I had right of way and no reasonable time to react to prevent an accident. I therefore don't accept that I was 80% to blame, and for her to claim that her car was stationary is a complete lie - she drove into me. Moral issues aside, I am concerned that if I do accept this offer I open myself up to a counter claim, the cost of which could be anything, depending on what she claims the damage was to her car (none, I checked it a few days later as I cycled past. It's a rusty old fiesta and can't be worth more than a few hundred in total, but how do I know she hasn't taken a hammer to the front wing since then, will claim her laptop got smashed up as it flew off the seat, that she has suffered trauma ever since and can't drive to work....etc?!)

But if I refuse this offer and a court trial doesn't find in my favour, or finds in my favour but to a lesser value than £120, I would then have to pay the defendant's court costs, which again could be any amount. I'm not sure how a court could find in my favour to be honest, with no visual footage as evidence or contactable eye witnesses. Surely the principle of innocent until proven guilty points towards them finding in her favour?

If what I have written above is correct, I'm now concerned that whatever choice I make I stand to be hit with a big bill for something that was not essentially my fault.

If I accept the offer (which I really don't want to do as it would be me being complicit with her lies) and am then subject to a counter claim would any costs of this potential counter claim be paid for by my BC liability insurance or out of my pocket? If the former, would this have any knock-on impact on my car or home insurance premiums?

If I don't accept the offer and the court doesn't find in my favour to a value beyond £120 (or £600?) would any court costs then come out of my pocket or be covered by my BC insurance or be sent as a bill to LD for them to pay? Again, would this also impact on my home or car premiums?

I appreciate I must come across as very naive here, but I've never been involved in an insurance claim of any sort in my life. I thought I had entered into an agreement with LD on a no-win, no fee basis and thought having read their terms that I didn't stand to incur any costs, regardless of outcome, so long as i) I wasn't found to be lying ii) I failed to provide evidence iii) I failed to co-operate or iv) I dropped the case. Now I don't feel so sure on this and feel they have cajoled me into making a claim that they said I had an excellent chance of winning when in fact it was always likely that I would leave myself open to paying costs in some way 

I am not a rich man and this has got me very worried. I just wanted the defendant to do the right thing and accept blame and get me a new helmet! Now I am feeling like I should never have pursued it and just let her walk away and been thankful I wasn't crippled.

Any advice or insight anyone can offer would be much appreciated.


I have received an offer to settle from the defendant insurers on a 80/20 split liability
basis in the Defendant’s favour. This means that you would be accepting 80% of the
blame and would be able to recover 20% of any agreed valuation of your claim. With
this in mind, the defendant insurers also offer £600.00 in full and final settlement of
your claim, net of liability.
The above also means that the Defendant would be entitled to recover 80% of any
counter claim they may bring. If any counter claim is made it is usually in respect of,
but not restricted to, vehicle damage.
Such an offer is often referred to as a Part 36 offer because that is the section of the
rules of court that deals with the position when these offers are made.
This offer has important costs consequences for you. If you do not accept it, even if
you succeed at trial, should you not be awarded higher damages than the amount
offered, you would be liable to pay the Defendant’s costs from 21 days after notice of
payment in until the end of the trial – and these will be the bulk of their costs
Of course, if you succeed at trial and are awarded higher damages than the offer
made, the Defendant may be ordered to pay your costs.
If the offer were to be accepted by you more than 21 days before trial, you are entitled
to claim your costs from the Defendant up to the date of serving notice of acceptance.
Less than 21 days before trial, if costs cannot be agreed with the Defendant, the offer
can only be accepted with the permission of the Court, and they will make an order as
to costs.
The Defendant states that she was stationary waiting for traffic to pass on Calvert
Road. You were overtaking stationary traffic and collided with her vehicle.
The defendant insurers are relying on a case called Powell v Moody. In this case
there was a line of stationary traffic on a main road when a motorcyclist overtook the
traffic on the offside. A large milk tanker signalled for the Defendant to pull out of a
side road. As the car driving inched out he collided with the motorcyclist. The car
driver was held 20% to blame and the motorcyclist 80% at fault.
Please could you let me have your comments on the Defendant’s allegations and
confirm whether the Defendant edged out of the side road? Also, what kind of van
was it which gave way to the Defendant?


----------



## Arjimlad (28 Apr 2017)

EasyPeez said:


> Hi,
> 
> So after months of submitting extra bits of evidence and hearing nothing back, I today received the letter below from Leigh Day solicitors, acting on my behalf and engaged by British Cycling after I initially rang them to ask for advice.
> 
> ...



You probably won't get hold of LD over the bank holiday weekend but I would want to know that your claim is settled, if it be settled, in full & final settlement of any claim or counterclaim so there is no comeback on you. At the moment the wording is that it is only in full & final settlement of your claim not of D's counterclaim.

You've had a part 36 offer. This has its own rules. LD are best placed to explain it to you.

You obviously need to give them the information they ask you for before they will be able to advise you on the offer, whether it is a reasonable one or not. They are on the record acting for you, have a duty to you, and stand to get paid for their work for you so best to see what they say.


----------



## PhilDawson8270 (28 Apr 2017)

I can't offer much in the way of 1st hand experience. However, from motorcycling forums, filtering accidents are quite commonly reported. With blame going from 0% blame to 100% blame to 50/50. But a lot of the arguments they make in defence of the driver is that the motorcyclist was overtaking at a junction.

There is of course the argument of overtaking vs filtering, but it's an expensive argument to have.


----------



## classic33 (28 Apr 2017)

I went against the advice of LD and said I'd see the driver & owner in court. The owners side were the first to mention court action, not mine. This was relayed back and they settled out of court.

It's one persons word against the other. But I'd the drivers various excuses and other details to fall back on.


----------



## Milzy (28 Apr 2017)

Get a claim in and say you can't get an erection anymore. My mates been waiting 3 years since he was taken out on a roundabout.


----------



## glasgowcyclist (28 Apr 2017)

EasyPeez said:


> I am being offered a settlement of 20% of £600 - i.e £120, but this is on the condition that I accept 80% of the blame for the incident



Grrrr. This is why we need presumed liability.


----------



## vickster (28 Apr 2017)

Milzy said:


> Get a claim in and say you can't get an erection anymore. My mates been waiting 3 years since he was taken out on a roundabout


You would however need an expert urologist report to say this is so 

My claim has been ongoing since Feb 2014, I need to see yet another different medical expert at some point and see the one I saw in February again in around 6 months. Not seen a penny yet 

@EasyPeez As above, speak to LD next week - the actual solicitor leading the case, not his/her paralegal


----------



## raleighnut (28 Apr 2017)

I wouldn't accept any liability for the accident and as you say you will then be open to a counter claim.


----------



## Markymark (28 Apr 2017)

Insurance companies:

1st offer: The one they hope you'll accept
2nd offer: The one they expect you to accept
3rd offer: The most they'd pay out

I'd wait for the third and if that is not acceptable go to court.


----------



## classic33 (28 Apr 2017)

I'd take the slur on my character, lying about what had happened, just as seriously. "You've lied about that, what else have you lied/are you lying about?"

They want to go down that route let them, doesn't mean you have to. Whether you get anything else out of it or not, you'll know you didn't lie.

As for the tanker signalling for a driver to pull out, the law is fairly clear on the use of flashing headlights. They mean "I am here, and no other meaning should be attached to them". One excuse used by the driver that hit me, and my response to it.

@EasyPeez, personally I'd be asking what sort of van the driver claims was involved. And not answering questions her side have put to you. Ask a few of your own.


----------



## Pale Rider (29 Apr 2017)

You are wise to be wary of a counter claim.

However, one hasn't been made yet and it's a bit late in the day to start one.

Even if that happens, it's hard to see how it can amount to much given the overall low value of the car, and your reasonable contention it wasn't damaged.

A cyclist rolling over the bonnet of the car can surely have caused no personal injury to the driver, which is where the big money could be.

Her contention - which you dispute - that the car was not moving will work against her for any claim she may make, which is an example of why I say so much of legal/court disputes come down to tactics.

I suspect the solicitor is trying to steer you away from going to court, but may have unwittingly alarmed you in the process.

If you look at the commentary on Powell v Moody, the car was 'inching forward'.

Thus in legal terms, it may not matter in your case whether the car was moving or not.

That being so, there's no point in risking the unknown consequences of a court hearing to get a decision on it.

The perceived stain on your character by accepting the settlement is just that, perceived.

You will not be standing up in a public court saying: "I lied, the car was not moving as I said it was."

There is an element of pragmatism here, but you are only accepting a privately agreed settlement, you are not accepting anything else.

You should certainly raise your concerns about a counter claim with the solicitor, but my prediction is you will be offered some reassurance about that.

Before speaking to him, sort out in your mind what you want to achieve.

You, to use the legal term, 'instruct' the solicitor, in other words, ask him to work towards the result you want.

Given your target is a new helmet, the £120 may meet that.

The solicitor's letter has, quite reasonably, given you some anxiety.

But I think it may be better news than it first appeared.


----------



## keithmac (30 Apr 2017)

The majority of my filtering along stationary traffic done down the left hand side (right or wrong) slowly. Dooring is always in the back of my mind and anticipated.

This way you can see any side roads and anticipate what others are planing to do. 

Filtering over any junction is a potentially dangerous situation, you need to have your eyes on stalks!.

I see this from both sides and to be honest I would call it a 50/50 accident. 

I spend most of my road time on bikes and motorcycles, self preservation is top of my mindset and never assume any other road user is going to do the correct thing at all times.

It shouldn't be the case but that's how it is unfortunately..


----------



## Drago (30 Apr 2017)

Why would their insurers want to pay you a penny if they genuinely thought you were 80% at fault? Sounds like an early low bid to see if you'll bite.


----------



## classic33 (30 Apr 2017)

I changed solicters after the first lot felt that the offer to replace the front wheel(£70) was more than adequate. I went back to the bike shop that I'd bought it from & got a quote for replacement. Then the another dealer of the same manufacturer, doing the same and sending the quotes on.

I was also given the bill for replacing the bonnet, if I accepted the offer. Close on a £1,000, it was a motor vehicle after all.


----------



## NorthernDave (30 Apr 2017)

Speak to the solicitor, asking the questions you've outlined above. They are the expert you've engaged after all.
Presumably you're a BC member, so will have TP liability cover through them? Ask if that will cover you against any TP counter claim, or if things go against you in court.


----------



## Venod (30 Apr 2017)

Milzy said:


> Get a claim in and say you can't get an erection anymore. My mates been waiting 3 years since he was taken out on a roundabout.



Looks like he needs some little blue pills, 3 years is a long time without.


----------



## fossyant (30 Apr 2017)

Speak to LD. I'm with them now and we've rejected a first offer on my incident. This will be the other party thinking you'll settle and that be the end. They usually do it 'without prejudice' which means that's an end to it all, without fully accepting 'blame'. It's normal for the other side to argue some percentage of liability. They have said they would do it in my case, but we've not sent them any evidence yet and they have already made a significant offer to settle, that would cover the 'injury' but not my future costs nor the cost of my 7 months sick pay to my employer. 

Wait to speak to the solicitor. If you are a BC member, you are already protected against counter claims, as you have third party insurance. If they claim, that will be handled by another company on BC's part (I've previously had a counter claim) but after all the evidence, it's never gone anywhere.


----------



## EasyPeez (30 Apr 2017)

Thanks to everyone for all the helpful replies. I must admit I was at my wits' end after reading the letter - it read as very much 'take this offer or go to court' to me but hopefully it's not as cut and dried as that - I think I'm getting a better idea of the process and (hopefully) some of the possible middle-ground outcomes from reading your posts.



Markymark said:


> Insurance companies:
> 
> 1st offer: The one they hope you'll accept
> 2nd offer: The one they expect you to accept
> ...



I take your point and hopefully another offer might be forthcoming if and when I reject this one. I'm not at all interested in holding out for more money, I just want something at least vaguely resembling justice being done. I'm keen not to go to court as it sounds like that could turn out to be a lottery I can't afford a ticket for, regardless of the rights and wrongs of the case.



classic33 said:


> I'd take the slur on my character, lying about what had happened, just as seriously. "You've lied about that, what else have you lied/are you lying about?"
> 
> They want to go down that route let them, doesn't mean you have to. Whether you get anything else out of it or not, you'll know you didn't lie.



I totally agree with the slur element, but it's not really about getting anything else out of it, for me. Nor can I afford to seek a morally correct resolution at all costs - knowing I haven't lied is all well and good but not if the chance to stand by that statement in court costs me hundreds or even thousands of pounds. At this point court seems like the right thing to do morally but a potential disaster financially. I'm pretty sure that my BC liability insurance wouldn't cover court costs if I ended up having to pay them, so that would be a chunk of my kids' inheritance I'd be gambling with...



classic33 said:


> As for the tanker signalling for a driver to pull out, the law is fairly clear on the use of flashing headlights. They mean "I am here, and no other meaning should be attached to them". One excuse used by the driver that hit me, and my response to it.


Thanks for that, I wasn't aware of the legal interpretation there. Useful to know.



Pale Rider said:


> You are wise to be wary of a counter claim.
> 
> However, one hasn't been made yet and it's a bit late in the day to start one.


Is it? I thought you could make a PI claim up to 3 years after an accident. I'd hope this is different for a claim on damage to property, but still, couldn't she conceivably claim all kinds of psychological injury in a counter claim against me anytime from now until Jan 2019?



Pale Rider said:


> If you look at the commentary on Powell v Moody, the car was 'inching forward'.
> 
> Thus in legal terms, it may not matter in your case whether the car was moving or not.
> 
> That being so, there's no point in risking the unknown consequences of a court hearing to get a decision on it.


More good advice, and another reasons to be wary of taking this to court - I just wouldn't feel confident of a ruling in my favour given all these grey areas and lack of hard evidence.



NorthernDave said:


> Presumably you're a BC member, so will have TP liability cover through them? Ask if that will cover you against any TP counter claim, or if things go against you in court.


Yes, thanks, this is one of the questions I'm trying to get an answer about but I'm not 100% sure having read my policy docs so will call LD and BC on Tuesday to seek clarification. Cheers.



fossyant said:


> If you are a BC member, you are already protected against counter claims, as you have third party insurance.


Great news. This seems to answer the first part of the point above. Still not sure if it includes counter claims for injuries though, or just for damage to property. Hopefully both, though how she'd have the gall to make a claim for injury from (in her account) having the front of her stationary car hit by a bicycle I can't imagine.


----------



## EasyPeez (30 Apr 2017)

Incidentally, I'm not sure if anyone has any experience of the Powell v Moody case that the defendant's solicitors in my case are using to apportion 80% blame to me, or any thoughts on this, but I just read reference to Woodham v JM Turner (see below).

To me this reads as basically the same situation as Moody vs Powell. Obviously without access to the full case notes for each it's impossible to make an in-depth comparison, but still, in this case the filtering (motor)cyclist was assigned only 30% blame, for essentially performing the same manoeuvre with the same outcome as that for which Powell was ascribed 80% blame. And in the former case apparently the main reason for apportioning 30% blame to Woodham was because his speed of 20mph was deemed excessive.

Why would the 2 essentially identical cases have such different legal outcomes?

Also, using the precedent of Woodham v Turner instead of Powell v Moody, surely it would be reasonable to argue that the blame ascribed to a cyclist in such an incident ought to be no more than the 30% Powell was ascribed? Then, bearing in mind that in my particular case I was travelling at just over half the speed of Powell, and that my stopping distance would have been considerably less than his, surely my blame ratio, if I have to accept some blame, should, based on this precedent, be no more than 15%?

Thoughts?

(T/A Turners of Great Barton) 2011, EWHC 1588 (QB), T’s employee was driving a coach which emerged at a T junction through a gap headed by a tractor and a trailer in stationary or slow moving traffic. The coach driver started to turn right to drive to the opposite side of the main road. W was driving a motorcycle along the main road towards the junction and overtaking on the outside of the slow traffic. The motorcycle struck the front offside corner of the coach and W sustained serious injuries. Mr Justice Kenneth Parker held that the coach driver was 70% liable on the basis that the view of oncoming traffic was obstructed and she should have waited for a more safe and secure opportunity to emerge. The motorcyclist shouldered 30% of the blame for the accident because it was held that there was a real possibility that a vehicle could emerge through the gap in his path. The motorcyclist’s speed of 20mph was held to be too fast for the overtaking manoeuvre he was carrying out.


----------



## classic33 (30 Apr 2017)

@EasyPeez, without trying to get you wound up, or put words in your mouth. You appear to be getting a little worked up(I know I did). You've said that she was moving in one post, and stationary in the last line of another(109).
I had the following excuses/defences put to me
1st June 2006 10:54.
Phonecall to 07, 10:54. 
Driver has admitted that the accident took place but disputes the injuries caused. 

22nd August 2006. Phoncall. 
Driver involved,, insists that he wasn't present at the scene of the incident. Despite him giving his details(false) to the two Police officers who attended. He never mentioned that last part until it was mentioned
The car was however

27th September 2006.
I stopped on the road to let a bus approaching from behind pass me & then allowing him to leave H***** Lane.
He denied on the night, that there had been any bus near us, traveling either way.

25th October 2006 
You were simply startled & dismounted your bike. Ending up leaving a dent in the bonnet.

23rd July 2007
He wasn't moving at the time(of collision)


----------



## fossyant (30 Apr 2017)

EasyPeez said:


> Incidentally, I'm not sure if anyone has any experience of the Powell v Moody case that the defendant's solicitors in my case are using to apportion 80% blame to me, or any thoughts on this, but I just read reference to Woodham v JM Turner (see below).
> 
> To me this reads as basically the same situation as Moody vs Powell. Obviously without access to the full case notes for each it's impossible to make an in-depth comparison, but still, in this case the filtering (motor)cyclist was assigned only 30% blame, for essentially performing the same manoeuvre with the same outcome as that for which Powell was ascribed 80% blame. And in the former case apparently the main reason for apportioning 30% blame to Woodham was because his speed of 20mph was deemed excessive.
> 
> ...



It's a horrible process even for a small claim, as the amount of lies you get from the other party is crazy.

Hold out, go get your replacement bits (keep the broken bits) and carry on. It's stressful, but having been at the end of it a few times, you just have to keep going. This is silly messing in your case. It took nearly 4 years for my damaged shoulder to get sorted legally, but my broken spine is moving a bit quicker as the damage is done, it won't improve. It's not good, as it's almost ended my cycling, I can't cycle to work every day as my back is painful, so if I want to ride, it means picking a good day, and ride off road, then suffer a few days after due to the shock impact. 

Hold out, and speak to the solicitor. Leigh Day are great. This is unfortunately, my third time of using them in 30 years cycling, all commute related incidents.


----------



## classic33 (30 Apr 2017)

fossyant said:


> It's a horrible process even for a small claim, as the amount of lies you get from the other party is crazy.
> 
> Hold out, go get your replacement bits (keep the broken bits) and carry on. It's stressful, but having been at the end of it a few times, you just have to keep going. This is silly messing in your case. It took nearly 4 years for my damaged shoulder to get sorted legally, but my broken spine is moving a bit quicker as the damage is done, it won't improve. It's not good, as it's almost ended my cycling, I can't cycle to work every day as my back is painful, so if I want to ride, it means picking a good day, and ride off road, then suffer a few days after due to the shock impact.
> 
> Hold out, and speak to the solicitor. Leigh Day are great. This is unfortunately, my third time of using them in 30 years cycling, all commute related incidents.


I think that wearing you down by dragging it out is supposed to be an accepted part of the process.

Do it long enough and you'll start accepting their offer. They seem to forget the human element in such incidents.


----------



## classic33 (1 May 2017)

*Flashing Your Headlights
What is the Legal Position?*

The Highway Code provides:

*110* – Flashing head lights. Only flash your headlights to let other road users know that you are there. Do not flash your headlights to convey any other message or intimidate other road users.

*111* – Never assume that flashing head lights is a symbol inviting you to proceed. Use your own judgment and proceed carefully.


----------



## EasyPeez (1 May 2017)

classic33 said:


> You appear to be getting a little worked up(I know I did). You've said that she was moving in one post, and stationary in the last line of another(109)


Not so; I'm perfectly calm here now. If you re-read post #109 and pay attention to the bit in parentheses, you'll see that my account remains consistent throughout and that it is only she who has ever said her car was stationary. Please don't see this as nitpicking - just trying to ensure clarity from my side. I appreciate your supportive and informative posts 



fossyant said:


> my broken spine



This puts things in perspective; I'm so sorry to hear the outcome of your own accident was so severe and hope that your ride recovery times and pain generally diminish over time. Thanks for your help in this thread.


----------



## classic33 (1 May 2017)

EasyPeez said:


> Not so; I'm perfectly calm here now. If you re-read post #109 and pay attention to the bit in parentheses, you'll see that my account remains consistent throughout and that it is only she who has ever said her car was stationary. Please don't see this as nitpicking - just trying to ensure clarity from my side. I appreciate your supportive and informative posts
> 
> 
> 
> This puts things in perspective; I'm so sorry to hear the outcome of your own accident was so severe and hope that your ride recovery times and pain generally diminish over time. Thanks for your help in this thread.


Don't see it as nit picking, in any way. I mis-read, thinking you'd said the car was moving in one post and stationary in another. 

Having been through this, I know it's not nice. From the excuses offered above by the driver who drove into me, it's easy to see how they'll try to find fault with you and not their party.


----------



## Pale Rider (1 May 2017)

EasyPeez said:


> Incidentally, I'm not sure if anyone has any experience of the Powell v Moody case that the defendant's solicitors in my case are using to apportion 80% blame to me, or any thoughts on this, but I just read reference to Woodham v JM Turner (see below).
> 
> To me this reads as basically the same situation as Moody vs Powell. Obviously without access to the full case notes for each it's impossible to make an in-depth comparison, but still, in this case the filtering (motor)cyclist was assigned only 30% blame, for essentially performing the same manoeuvre with the same outcome as that for which Powell was ascribed 80% blame. And in the former case apparently the main reason for apportioning 30% blame to Woodham was because his speed of 20mph was deemed excessive.
> 
> ...



We need to be wary of what lawyers sarcastically call Google Law.

Such researches can be very misleading, not least because the full versions of most judgments remain behind subscription services.

As a general comment, I agree Powell v Moody does seem mean-spirited towards the filtering rider, but the case does appear to still be used, so that's where we are.

The 30 per cent liability in the coach case you found seems fairer to me.

Your solicitor should be on top of the latest thinking, but he seems to accept the court will likely be guided by Powell v Moody.

You mention perspective, and that is very important.

Some of those who have replied to this thread suffered serious injury.

Their cases are, quite rightly, being pursued vigorously.

Your best possible result is £600 - your full claim.

Courts being courts, a judge's decision would likely be a compromise between that and the £120 offer.

So going to court won't get you £600, it will only get you the difference between the lesser amount you are awarded and the £120.

And there's always the risk, however slight, that things take an unexpected turn.

No harm in asking your solicitor to give the other lot a prod in an upward direction, but I can't see the point of taking a lot more time and trouble over it than that.


----------



## classic33 (1 May 2017)

No harm in telling his solicitor to "prod the other lot" either.

Don't think EasyPeez wants to go to court. Court action and possible outcomes, cost wise, seem to have been mentioned in the letter. It can make you think twice about *any* offer made to you. It's unfair where the claim is genuine, but also makes any amount offered out of court seem worth it.

Me, I'd the other side decide to take me to court. But dropped at the last moment.


----------



## EasyPeez (2 May 2017)

Thank you @Pale Rider for all the advice in this thread, it's much appreciated. A couple of last quick points - 



Pale Rider said:


> Your best possible result is £600 - your full claim.


I don't know where this figure came from - it seems to be what the defendant's solicitors have decided to make as their (possibly initial, possibly only) offer of what my claim is worth. I'm not sure how they arrived at the figure. I have certainly never said what I think my claim should be worth.



Pale Rider said:


> No harm in asking your solicitor to give the other lot a prod in an upward direction


Yes, I intend to do just this. Though it's more a prod in the downward direction (of liability) that I am concerned to achieve, than an upward prod (financially).



Pale Rider said:


> I can't see the point of taking a lot more time and trouble over it than that


Agreed. I just want to make sure I don't end up with a whopping court bill or a ridiculous counter claim. I'm angry at her dishonesty but realise how lucky I am in life generally so don't intend to get hung up on this or pursue the claim any further than is necessary to (hopefully) ensure I don't come off out of pocket in the long run.
Can't wait for the whole thing to be behind me to be honest, and I do really feel for those on here such as @fossyant who've suffered much worse accidents and subsequent strife to achieve justice.

Cheers.


----------



## classic33 (2 May 2017)

Best o'luck, and don't let it put you off cycling.


----------

