# Cycle Security - Please comment and repost amongst your friends



## Chris Pipkin (24 Jul 2012)

Dear all,

I am a police officer in Sussex, UK and am in the process of setting up an operation to tackle cycle theft. I am looking to canvas your opinions and get some feedback as you are my target audience.

My operation is designed to mark cycles with an anti tamper tag (with QR code) provided free of charge. We take your details, register your cycle and create your account. All you need to do is report the bike stolen to us and update the database. 

The aim of this project is to tackle the rising numbers of cycle theft in and around town centre locations and to be able to re unite owners with their cycles in the event of us finding them. At the moment, it is really difficult if not impossible for us to trace the owner of a cycle as most cyclists do not have the all important details - granted those of us who are interested in cycling and have a desire to look after our property will do ! If a recovered cycle is registered - we can identify the owner by scanning the code and making a call to establish its current status.

The purpose of this post is to generate discussion between cyclists as to which method you would prefer - Bike Shepherd which offers 3 ultra destructible QR tags (which disintegrate into tiny pieces taking a long time to remove) to be placed at various places (overt or covert - you decide) around your cycle as well as the registration to the database, or Bike Register which uses a single tamper proof QR sticker (non disintegrating) which would be better off being overt - as well as registration on the data base. Please look at both www.bikeshepherd.org and www.bikeregister.com to see which fits your needs best. 

We are planning to offer the services free of charge at various locations across a trial area in West Sussex. If popular and the trial shows a reduction in cycle thefts, I will be looking to roll it out across the rest of the force area. I am keen to get people's views on these two schemes and welcome any feedback from people who have tried either system.

If you would like to reply - please can you let me know what you would like from such a system i.e. ability to upload photos of your cycle, interactive user account, multiple stickers? Single sticker? No sticker?, etc etc.

Thanks

Sergeant Chris Pipkin
Sussex Police.​


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## byegad (24 Jul 2012)

Good idea Chris, but almost all cycles already have a code on them. The frame number is unoque to the bike. In the last 12 bikes I've owned one that didn't have this on the frame, at least it did but completely buried by the Powder Coat paint. Totally illegible.

Given that stolen bikes are rarely returned to their owner what benefit do you see in an extra mark? Or have I missed the point?


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## GrumpyGregry (24 Jul 2012)

I'd use such a scheme willingly. Especially if I can load a picture and detailed description of the bike onto a database. I'm not sure stickers, as such, are a deterrent to bike thieves, but some sort of tagging/chipping linked to a database is a good idea if, and possibly this is a big if, Sussex Police are then going to make some effort to recover stolen bike and then reunite recovered stolen bikes with their owners. I've been told, to my face, by serving Sussex officers that bike theft isn't a priority. Perhaps this is to change.

But my impression is the bikes that get stolen from Horsham town centre, where I live, aren't nicked by professional bike thieves but by scrotes who sell them down the pub to pay for their next fix, or by sorts whose justification is that classic 21st Century excuse for all manner of numptyness "having a laugh" Thus the police won't get near the stolen bike to return it.


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## Ian Cooper (24 Jul 2012)

In my opinion, as a cyclist who lives in a community which tags bikes using a similar system to 'Bike Register', bike theft will only be reduced by such tags if police treat bike theft seriously. In my experience, stolen bikes only get back to their rightful owners when observant citizens see them being offered for sale. I'm sorry to say it, but police, in my experience, regard bikes not as vehicles, but as toys, and therefore couldn't give a toss about bike theft. I don't see the existence of a tag, visible or tamper-proof, as being likely to change that attitude.


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## rvw (24 Jul 2012)

I'd be in favour. It does require some commitment by the relevant police force.

But if the owner of a (recovered) bike can be traced with a simple scan of a code, as opposed to a lot of effort trawling through incomplete details of reported thefts, that will be a much easier task for the police, and improve their clear-up statistics. If it's that much simpler to reunite bike and owner, presumably it will actually happen more often?


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## CopperCyclist (24 Jul 2012)

I'd be in favour, and would sign up. I'd got for two or three 'hard to remove' stickers. That way if the police stop someone on a bike with a partially removed sticker, it could b a good reason for us to check the rest of the bike, or even think about seizing it as us stolen if things don't add up! I've also sent you a PM.


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## MossCommuter (24 Jul 2012)

http://www.immobilise.com

I thought that the police looked at immobilise.com on recovery of a bike? As someone else said most bicycles have a serial number and that's all that immobilise.com needs. You don't_ have_ to buy a tag to register.

All my Bicycles are registered; was I wasting my time?


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## Mr Haematocrit (24 Jul 2012)

bike register


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## summerdays (24 Jul 2012)

I've got one of those tags down the seat tube that Avon police were handing out a couple of years ago, and also got the post-code of the shop where I bought the bike from engraved on the bottom bracket. I do know someone who had their bike returned to them via that bike shop, less than two weeks after it was stolen. 

As for which system out of the two - possibly the 3 sticker system, though I'm not sure where I would put them on the bike.


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## Manonabike (24 Jul 2012)

byegad said:


> Good idea Chris, but almost all cycles already have a code on them. The frame number is unoque to the bike. In the last 12 bikes I've owned one that didn't have this on the frame, at least it did but completely buried by the Powder Coat paint. Totally illegible.
> 
> *Given that stolen bikes are rarely returned to their owner what benefit do you see in an extra mark?* Or have I missed the point?


 
A bit of practice in reading and comprehension would go a long way here I think 

The clues are in mark - database - police - reunite bike with his owner.

I can imagine the problem and it's an idea worth supporting.


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## byegad (25 Jul 2012)

If one of my bikes is stolen I'd give the frame number to the police. Where is the benefit in another number? The problem is the theft of a bike isn't of the highest priority to the police and so they wouldn't circulate the frame number to other forces.

Will they circulate the mark number? If yes, why not circulate the frame number which is already there?


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## Chris Pipkin (25 Jul 2012)

Thanks for all your comments.

There are a number of issues that we want to try and address with this scheme - most importantly educating people on the importance of recording their bike's frame number and / or unique identifiers. We see so many people report their bike as stolen and very few (maybe 5%) know their frame numbers making it very difficult if not impossible to identify stolen bikes - some frame numbers are almost impossible to read as mentioned earlier in this thread. If we offer a scheme whereby we mark, register and record peoples frame numbers (as well as this unique identifier) and descriptions of their bike, we are then able to search the national database in the event of finding a marked bike. If it is reported stolen we can check the riders details against those registered on the website and if they don’t match - the rider has some difficult questions to answer.

We can't circulate the frame numbers of stolen bikes to other forces - there are simply too many, which is why we need to have a system whereby owners can flag the bike as stolen, that we can check it in the event of us finding a marked bike. We use the Police National Computer for cars and motorbikes - this is effectively the same for bikes. PNC is invaluable; this has the potential to be the same.

Immobilise.com is a good website, and we would advise people to register their property on it. We are able to search the database; however you have to have a police account in order to do so. By using a scheme as mentioned here - the public can search it as well so they are able to do a history check prior to buying a second hand bike (which is also useful for retailers such as cash converters who are always getting bikes seized by the Police)

I accept that bike theft is treated differently in each Police area - but it is a constant feature across the country. This is a relatively simple way, which does require some buy in by the Police, to reduce the overall amount of theft offences. For this to succeed in the long term, we need to show reductions in theft over the trial period which will in turn make the crime managers who allocate funding take notice. A similar scheme has been adopted by Transport for London and as such attracts a team of around 30 officers dedicated to cycle theft in London - there is no reason that this can't happen in other force areas. 

Reduction in theft means a lower crime rate, a lower crime rate improves public confidence, and improved public confidence makes for a happier community which is surely what everyone wants.

Regards
Chris


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## Manonabike (25 Jul 2012)

byegad said:


> If one of my bikes is stolen I'd give the frame number to the police. Where is the benefit in another number? The problem is the theft of a bike isn't of the highest priority to the police and so they wouldn't circulate the frame number to other forces.
> 
> Will they circulate the mark number? If yes, why not circulate the frame number which is already there?


 
I think the police would like a central database where bike owners can register their bikes before they are stolen. As you said in your first post, not every single bike has a number / code, I also have a bike that has the code covered by the new paint job.. The code given by the police could have information useful to the police, ie area where the bike was registered, date of registration, etc. A database could hold information about previous owners, etc.

The important thing here would be a database where the police all over the country has access to. The mark is also important,


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## GetAGrip (25 Jul 2012)

Your selling it to me.
If you can provide a simple to use (for us), yet detailed data based record, of bike and owner, that could encourage police to prosecute more thieving scum as well as re-unite said bike and owner........Got to be worth everyone working together in my book! Are you looking to develop this on a national basis or just in county?


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## MossCommuter (25 Jul 2012)

Chris Pipkin said:


> the public can search it as well so they are able to do a history check prior to buying a second hand bike (which is also useful for retailers such as cash converters who are always getting bikes seized by the Police)


This is the clincher!


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## Chris Pipkin (25 Jul 2012)

> Are you looking to develop this on a national basis or just in county?


 
There are numerous schemes available in different force areas - I am hopeful to push this one out across all of Sussex (after what I hope is going to be a successful trial). With the correct publicity, once we promote our success stories and other forces will undoubtedly follow as they won't want to miss out on reducing crime in this area. In fact I spoke with a colleague in West Midlands Police today who is very interested in our scheme and is going to look to develop his current project.

Regards

Chris


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## PpPete (25 Jul 2012)

As the owner of one expensive (and very customised) bike, along with several less valuable ones, I'd definitely go for an option with multiple stickers.
I'd want 1 for the frame, 1 each for the handbuilt wheels, 1 for the Brooks sadddle, maybe 1out of sight under the handlebars too ?
Hopefully 1 out of 5 might come to someone's attention ?
That's if the scheme gets taken up by Hampshire of course.


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## GrumpyGregry (25 Jul 2012)

Chris Pipkin said:


> We can't circulate the frame numbers of stolen bikes to other forces - there are simply too many, which is why we need to have a system whereby owners can flag the bike as stolen, that we can check it in the event of us finding a marked bike. We use the Police National Computer for cars and motorbikes - this is effectively the same for bikes. PNC is invaluable; this has the potential to be the same.


 
So my mountain bike, registered with Sussex Police as it lives in Horsham, gets nicked from my car at Leith Hill in Surrey, but Sussex Police can't tell Surrey about its details and/or vice versa? That's disappointing. Why? There are 30 million cars (NB just cars) registered in the UK and every single one of them is on a database. If I steal a car in Newcastle-upon-Tyne the police in Newcastle Emlyn get to know about it. There are only about 10 million bikes in the UK. The scale of the problem is much smaller. The implication is bikes are just toys and if one gets stolen the owner has them means to replace it out of their pocket money.


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## Chris Pipkin (25 Jul 2012)

> So my mountain bike, registered with Sussex Police as it lives in Horsham, gets nicked from my car at Leith Hill in Surrey, but Sussex Police can't tell Surrey about its details and/or vice versa? That's disappointing. Why?


 
Sorry, that was slightly unclear on my part. As a matter of course we do not exchange details of bike thefts as they occur - if we did we would do nothing but swap details of stolen bikes and other property. If Surrey Police call us and ask us to check our systems for a particular item - of course we would and we would then undertake the necessary enquiries to get it back to you. If your bike was marked with one of these tags, Surrey would be able to check the bike, get your details and make contact with you direct (and probably much quicker) to get your bike back to you. 

Regards
Chris


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## MattL (25 Jul 2012)

Chris,

I've read what you've been saying and it's good that there's an effort on the part of the law to try to get bikes to their rightful owners. The thing that occurs to me is about accessibility of the data of the registered bikes and their status. What I'd like to put forward is to put that data onto an XML based API. This might seem like gobbledegook but what it means is that anyone would be able to connect and lookup that data. (They could perhaps have to register to get it so it's not necessarily a free-for-all.) This means that all cycle forums and people getting websites would be able to have their own widgets on a website to check the status of a bike. It wouldn't mean that everyone's personal data is available, but to be able to get a person's name, telephone number, county, bike make, bike model, bike colour, bike code number and bike status would be enough to satisfy the need. You could even consider photographs.

This would be a benefit because it would mean the law would still be providing the service but not have the "hassle" (forgive me) of chasing up all the enquiries. It would also mean that the lookup systems are widespread, removing the obsticle of people doing the lookup. Sites like eBay and other vendors would be able to do checks. Once the system is so freely available, it cuts the crime because so many people can verify whether a bike is stolen, thieves are less inclined to steal them.

In short, make the data available to as many people as you can and those who want it to work will make it work for you.


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## byegad (25 Jul 2012)

Chris Pipkin said:


> Sorry, that was slightly unclear on my part. As a matter of course we do not exchange details of bike thefts as they occur - if we did we would do nothing but swap details of stolen bikes and other property. If Surrey Police call us and ask us to check our systems for a particular item - of course we would and we would then undertake the necessary enquiries to get it back to you. If your bike was marked with one of these tags, Surrey would be able to check the bike, get your details and make contact with you direct (and probably much quicker) to get your bike back to you.
> 
> Regards
> Chris


 
All you need do is put it on a data base accessible by all police forces*. Then when my bike turns up in another county under suspicious circumstances the frame number can be checked against it. This is easy, you have Holmes for serious offences that all forces may access, another for cars, so one more for bikes will do the trick. No more work than entering the details of my stolen bike into the correct database. Surely that's what you do for your own force anyway?

As has been said above, to us bicycles, and in my case tricycles, are a means of transport/sports equipment, and in the case of some, more expensive than a second hand car. Surely a simple database is not beyond the wit of (police)man?

*Allow all to access it and we can do the checking for you, so, I look up a number, it comes up as reported stolen, I call the police.


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## User269 (25 Jul 2012)

I'd like to see more emphasis on preventing bike theft, and less on being able to identify the owner of a bike once it's been stolen.


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## MattL (25 Jul 2012)

User269 said:


> I'd like to see more emphasis on preventing bike theft, and less on being able to identify the owner of a bike once it's been stolen.


To be fair, if someone is going to steal a bike, you can't actually stop them. Basic security will stop the opportunists but some people you just can't reach.


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## TheDoctor (25 Jul 2012)

I'd be more keen if I actually had any confidence in the police.
You want to stop bike theft - then pay some attention to Brick Lane Market, amongst others.
I've just seen too many tales on here of people who see their stolen bikes on Ebay and Gumtree, and the Bill do diddley squat.


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## Chris Pipkin (26 Jul 2012)

Thanks again for your comments.

The data sharing between forces seems to be quite a big area of concern for you - they beauty of this system will mean that both the police and the public can check the database to see if the bike is stolen - we will be able to get the personal information and make contact with the victim in the event of finding a bike that has been reported. With the QR codes - anyone with a smart phone can scan a bikes sticker which will take you directly to an internet page telling you if a bike is reported stolen...which seems fool proof even to a police (man).

Running along side such an operation will be a high profile media campaign which will focus on prevention of crime. We will be making it very clear to any potential bike thieves that bikes are being marked, that they will be traceable and that we can determine very quickly if a marked bike is in the wrong hands - if it is they can expect to be arrested. I envisage eye catching signage at town centre bike parking locations, as well as train stations, leisure centres, schools uni's etc etc.

Brick Lane market has been mentioned - I can say first hand, that the Met's cycle task force deal with all of the issues raised in that post and actively look for eBay and Gumtree adverts that look suspicious.

Keep the comments coming - this is really helpful for my research.

Regards

Chris


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## GrumpyGregry (26 Jul 2012)

TheDoctor said:


> I'd be more keen if I actually had any confidence in the police.
> You want to stop bike theft - then *pay some attention to Brick Lane Market*, amongst others.
> I've just seen too many tales on here of people who see their stolen bikes on Ebay and Gumtree, and the *Bill do diddley squat*.


I think that is a little harsh. 

Whilst I've been frustrated with the local (sussex) police and btp attitudes to cycle theft for a number of years the latter are raising their game and the met have a group of officers who bust a gut with limited resources and have lots of successes to brag about. So it isn't all bad news.

And unless he is having us on the OP is on the job and is an example of an officer in a force trying to do something about the issue. Might not be much. Might not be the perfect solution. It's a significant step in the right direction.


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## MossCommuter (26 Jul 2012)

Chris Pipkin said:


> With the QR codes - anyone with a smart phone can scan a bikes sticker which will take you directly to an internet page telling you if a bike is reported stolen.


 
The challenge here is that a sticker can be removed from a stolen bicycle a lot more readily than the serial number stamped on the frame.


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## GrumpyGregry (26 Jul 2012)

Chris Pipkin said:


> Running along side such an operation will be a high profile media campaign which will focus on prevention of crime. We will be making it very clear to any potential bike thieves that bikes are being marked, that they will be traceable and that we can determine very quickly if a marked bike is in the wrong hands - if it is they can expect to be arrested. I envisage eye catching signage at town centre bike parking locations, as well as train stations, leisure centres, schools uni's etc etc.


 
Chris, please treat the media campaign and eye catching signage angles with care. BTP tried a poster and leaflet campaign at Horsham a couple of years back, before the rail station redevelopment started, warning folk the station was a bike theft hot spot.

Guess what? We saw a short term decrease in the number of people cycling to the station! I know because it coincided with the rebirth of our local cycling forum, of which I'm secretary, and I was doing a bit of a bikes in the bike sheds survey to try to influence Southern/Network Rail to improve the facilities there.

Ideally what we need, imo, at schools, uni's, leisure centres, town centres and stations is proper secure storage in dedicated compounds, with decent access systems and good cctv which recognise the value, both asset wise and personal, of modern bikes.


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## fimm (26 Jul 2012)

My question is, how are you going to reach cyclists?
I believe Edinburgh has some kind of similar scheme. I occassionally see reference to it in reports of cycling promotion events. My problem is, I work outside the city, and so don't get to "bike breakfasts" and the like. I have no idea if I could roll up to my nearest police station and ask for my bikes to be marked. In fact, I have no idea where the nearest police station is. And (she says cynically) it is probably open 9 - 5 and I work outside Edinburgh... besides which I have more bikes than I can easily transport all at once... just throwing things at you for you to think about.

I think I prefer the multiple sticker idea.


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## Chris Pipkin (26 Jul 2012)

fimm said:


> My question is, how are you going to reach cyclists?
> I believe Edinburgh has some kind of similar scheme. I occassionally see reference to it in reports of cycling promotion events. My problem is, I work outside the city, and so don't get to "bike breakfasts" and the like. I have no idea if I could roll up to my nearest police station and ask for my bikes to be marked. In fact, I have no idea where the nearest police station is. And (she says cynically) it is probably open 9 - 5 and I work outside Edinburgh... besides which I have more bikes than I can easily transport all at once... just throwing things at you for you to think about.
> 
> I think I prefer the multiple sticker idea.


 We have got a few ideas already in the pipeline. We will be using social media (Twitter and Facebook accounts) to reach as many people as possible from the on-line community as well as web pages hosted on our own website and partner agencies (councils etc). We may look to use forums like this to promote events.

We will obviously be promoting the marking events through local radio and paper as well as posters in key locations. Marking events will not just town centres and will take place at various different times and days so that people who work Monday to Friday 9 - 5 will be able to use the service. Local officers will also have the facilities to call at people's house and mark their bikes if they so wish.

Regards
Chris


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## ianrauk (26 Jul 2012)

You say Brick Lane has been mentioned? Yes and what is happening about it?
It is widely known as being London's hotspot for stolen bike sales.

Sometimes you get a token old bill wandering up and down the road.
I have seen it happen, the sellers just disappear until token cop is gone.
PCSO's are completely ignored by the sellers.
But more direct action is needed.
It's not hard to nail the sellers & those who buy, they know they are buying stolen goods.
A few undercover cops and you will bag a hatful. Not every now and again but every day until they are stopped.

And you know what, cyclists have been telling this to the police for years and very little is ever done.


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## fimm (26 Jul 2012)

Well, you've thought about that! That is good! (I should probably do a bit more investigating of the Edinburgh scheme...)


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## GrumpyGregry (26 Jul 2012)

ianrauk said:


> You say Brick Lane has been mentioned? Yes and what is happening about it?
> It is widely known as being London's hotspot for stolen bike sales.
> 
> Sometimes you get a token old bill wandering up and down the road.
> ...


Probably best asked of the Met's finest not Sussex's.....


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## mossj88 (30 Jul 2012)

Hi Chris,

Both BikeRegister and BikeShephard are very good services, I question the validity of tamper proof stickers (just how tamper proof can a sticker be) but it's another hurdle for them to cross so can't be a bad thing.

I do prefer what Leicestershire Police are doing at the minute, as they are exchanging chain locks for D-Locks free of charge, which put up much more of a fight against would be thiefs.

Thanks,
John

P.S I'm concerned that you say the police is unable to search frame numbers country wide... I run stolen bike register website and we do that on a £5 a month server (along with hourly comparisons against what Gumtree/eBay are selling). It doesn't take much to put a database together and query the results, even if there may be tens of thousands of records.

Anyway I put in a FOI request to my local bobbies, and if it's sucessful to the rest of the country for the frame numbers of recovered bikes. So hopefully there will soon be a nationwide search facility available.

P.S.S you can search Immobilise... they just charge you for the pleasure (£3.99)


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## MissTillyFlop (30 Jul 2012)

Chris Pipkin said:


> Dear all,​I am a police officer in Sussex, UK and am in the process of setting up an operation to tackle cycle theft. I am looking to canvas your opinions and get some feedback as you are my target audience.​My operation is designed to mark cycles with an anti tamper tag (with QR code) provided free of charge. We take your details, register your cycle and create your account. All you need to do is report the bike stolen to us and update the database. ​The aim of this project is to tackle the rising numbers of cycle theft in and around town centre locations and to be able to re unite owners with their cycles in the event of us finding them. At the moment, it is really difficult if not impossible for us to trace the owner of a cycle as most cyclists do not have the all important details - granted those of us who are interested in cycling and have a desire to look after our property will do ! If a recovered cycle is registered - we can identify the owner by scanning the code and making a call to establish its current status.​The purpose of this post is to generate discussion between cyclists as to which method you would prefer - Bike Shepherd which offers 3 ultra destructible QR tags (which disintegrate into tiny pieces taking a long time to remove) to be placed at various places (overt or covert - you decide) around your cycle as well as the registration to the database, or Bike Register which uses a single tamper proof QR sticker (non disintegrating) which would be better off being overt - as well as registration on the data base. Please look at both www.bikeshepherd.org and www.bikeregister.com to see which fits your needs best. ​We are planning to offer the services free of charge at various locations across a trial area in West Sussex. If popular and the trial shows a reduction in cycle thefts, I will be looking to roll it out across the rest of the force area. I am keen to get people's views on these two schemes and welcome any feedback from people who have tried either system.​If you would like to reply - please can you let me know what you would like from such a system i.e. ability to upload photos of your cycle, interactive user account, multiple stickers? Single sticker? No sticker?, etc etc.​Thanks​Sergeant Chris Pipkin​Sussex Police.​


 

I have had my bikes marked by the police - but it has been done using indelible UV ink and can only be seen under UV light and they were registered with bike register. You can upload photos to bike register and I have done so. It's great considering it's free.


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## mossj88 (30 Jul 2012)

ianrauk said:


> You say Brick Lane has been mentioned? Yes and what is happening about it?
> It is widely known as being London's hotspot for stolen bike sales.
> 
> Sometimes you get a token old bill wandering up and down the road.
> ...


 
Having spoken to the Met Task Force they did exactly this not so long ago, but when they handed the market back to the local council/police it went back to how it was almost overnight... So apparently it's not that simple, you actually have to punish the people selling the bikes (that would be where it went wrong).


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## jim55 (30 Jul 2012)

PpPete said:


> As the owner of one expensive (and very customised) bike, along with several less valuable ones, I'd definitely go for an option with multiple stickers.
> I'd want 1 for the frame, 1 each for the handbuilt wheels, 1 for the Brooks sadddle, maybe 1out of sight under the handlebars too ?
> Hopefully 1 out of 5 might come to someone's attention ?
> That's if the scheme gets taken up by Hampshire of course.


^^^ this ^^^ its not just frames and forks that bikes get stolen for ,iv heard of bikes being stolen for a certain wheelset or whatever and the frame is secondary ,,its a good idea but i know that a lot of parts on gumtree and ebay and such are not legit ,itd b esse4ntial to stop the trade in dodgy stolen wheels or parts in gen ,what about the smart water marking system that gets used for motorbikes?is there not a version similiar to this that could b used for cycles


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## Hawk (4 Aug 2012)

So for me, the biggest question is - how can you make sure someone doesn't remove the sticker? As soon as this sticker is removed, the whole database etc that has been set up becomes a bit useless.

I don't know how effective such a scheme would be on that basis - however I welcome this trial.

For me, bike crime will only be reduced if bicycles and components (maybe just bicycles worth over £X and components worth over £Y) were required by law to be sold with paperwork produced by the manufacturers... I don't think many people would buy bikes for £1,000 then 'misplace' such papers. I don't expect this to happen in the near future though


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## mossj88 (4 Aug 2012)

I imagine the police will take the frame number for the database as well, the stickers more for show as it says to a potential thief "this bike is registered beware"


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## byegad (4 Aug 2012)

Chris Pipkin said:


> Thanks for all your comments.
> 
> There are a number of issues that we want to try and address with this scheme - most importantly educating people on the importance of recording their bike's frame number and / or unique identifiers. We see so many people report their bike as stolen and very few (maybe 5%) know their frame numbers making it very difficult if not impossible to identify stolen bikes - some frame numbers are almost impossible to read as mentioned earlier in this thread. If we offer a scheme whereby we mark, register and record peoples frame numbers (as well as this unique identifier) and descriptions of their bike, we are then able to search the national database in the event of finding a marked bike. If it is reported stolen we can check the riders details against those registered on the website and if they don’t match - the rider has some difficult questions to answer.
> 
> ...


 
Sorry Chris. I appreciate you're trying to help here. But what you seem to be saying you'll only attempt to trace a lost bike if:- A) you happen across it.
and
B) It has an extra ID number.

I can't see why the frame number isn't enough. What difference, apart from your willingness to trace the owner will an extra number make?

After all you can keep a data base of all motor vehicles but would only need to record stolen bike frame numbers. Plus a lot of owners of cheaper machines won't even report their loss, so reducing the number of machines you would need to trace. .


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## 400bhp (10 Aug 2012)

Chris Pipkin said:


> Thanks for all your comments.
> 
> There are a number of issues that we want to try and address with this scheme - most importantly educating people on the importance of recording their bike's frame number and / or unique identifiers. We see so many people report their bike as stolen and very few (maybe 5%) know their frame numbers making it very difficult if not impossible to identify stolen bikes - some frame numbers are almost impossible to read as mentioned earlier in this thread. If we offer a scheme whereby we mark, register and record peoples frame numbers (as well as this unique identifier) and descriptions of their bike, we are then able to search the national database in the event of finding a marked bike. If it is reported stolen we can check the riders details against those registered on the website and if they don’t match - the rider has some difficult questions to answer.
> 
> ...


 
Why though? A very simple database would do it. Even a spreadsheet.

Not difficult at all.


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## Inertia (10 Aug 2012)

400bhp said:


> Why though? A very simple database would do it. Even a spreadsheet.
> 
> Not difficult at all.


Aye, I don't understand that either, a database for the stickers would be just as large.


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## headcoat (10 Aug 2012)

I have both my bike registered with Bike Shepherd with the three stickers on each bike. Not sure it is a deterrent but at least "if" found they can be traced back to me. As long the stickers cannot or aren't removed. 

To me this should be taken up by all forces as the infrastructure is there already.

Do all police know to scan the code in though?


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## mossj88 (10 Aug 2012)

headcoat said:


> I have both my bike registered with Bike Shepherd with the three stickers on each bike. Not sure it is a deterrent but at least "if" found they can be traced back to me. As long the stickers cannot or aren't removed.
> 
> To me this should be taken up by all forces as the infrastructure is there already.
> 
> Do all police know to scan the code in though?


 
From what I've heard some police do, some don't the number that goes with the QR code is more useful (the QR is more a gimmic).

I think half the problem is that there is no central place to check frame numbers, meaning if you buy a used bike it's difficult to check, for that reason I'm designing a database with a publicly available API that hopefully I can convince as many registers as possible to use.

I've unbranded it from my own register and the way I plan to sell it is that any register that uses it will get equal advertising space on it.


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## david k (17 Aug 2012)

Ian Cooper said:


> In my opinion, as a cyclist who lives in a community which tags bikes using a similar system to 'Bike Register', bike theft will only be reduced by such tags if police treat bike theft seriously. In my experience, stolen bikes only get back to their rightful owners when observant citizens see them being offered for sale. I'm sorry to say it, but police, in my experience, regard bikes not as vehicles, but as toys, and therefore couldn't give a toss about bike theft. I don't see the existence of a tag, visible or tamper-proof, as being likely to change that attitude.


maybe its because it will be difficult to tell if it someones bike or not, with it being tagged this process will be easier and maybe the police will be more inclined to help


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## dellzeqq (18 Aug 2012)

Chris - you have a personal message..........


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## mcshroom (18 Aug 2012)

I don't think I'd mind either scheme. Where I think the main benefit of a scheme like this lies, however, is in the collecting of data like frame numbers at the time that the bike is being registered. As Chris mentioned earlier, many people don't know the frame numbers of their bikes, so when stolen it makes it a lot harder to reunite them with their owners. If, when the bike is stolen the bike's details are already recorded, then the job becomes far easier.

My warning would be that you may see a statistical rise in bike thefts after the trial, as people will be more willing to report bikes stolen (which is massively under-reported in the UK) if they have a a greater belief that you will be able to return them. This will be a good result for crime detection, but it may not go down well with the number crunchers higher up the force.


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## Drago (18 Aug 2012)

I've done some bike marking over the years, but all my bikes are registered on Immobilise.com. Free and easy, a bit like me!


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## Mr Haematocrit (25 Aug 2012)

The searchable database's already exist such as bikeregister.com.
Bikeregister provides a photo database of bikes, along with the bikes specifications and the site offers security etching, security stickers, data-tags, locks and more.
As the database exists, is already in use and works why do the police all not simply agree to use this service? - why is there a need to use tax payers money to replicate something that already exists and works would the money not be better spent promoting this existing service, or a tax force to tackle cycle crime head on.


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## Drago (26 Aug 2012)

Interestingly, see which force already endorses Immobilise.com

Scroll to the bottom right...

http://www.immobilise.com/police_forces.html


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## Martman (10 Sep 2012)

Sounds a great idea Chris especially for free, what about getting this done at source.
Shops could advertise “ free security pack with every new bike” there would be more take up this way.

MartMan

Can you influence Hertfordshire to take this up?


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## buddha (10 Sep 2012)

I like the idea of using a datatag transponder (or possibly more than one), hidden inside the frame, inside rims, under saddle etc. They only cost a couple of quid each (retail).
Even my cat has one!
This way a load of bikes (say locked at a train station) can be scanned quickly and more easily than a QR code.


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## GentlyBenevolent (13 Sep 2012)

If the QR code sticker is to be used as frame numbers aren't always legible then the thief will just remove/destroy it. Once it's rendered illegible there's no link back to the database. I'm not sure this is practical.

Some kind of NFC tag dropped into the frame with some glue (so it sticks in and you can't just turn the bike upside down and drop it back out) - like DataTags (used on motorbikes) as buddha says - would be very hard for a thief to disable without destroying the bike. If the QR sticker is to provide a visual deterrant then you can still have a sticker indicating your membership in a scheme. Perhaps two - one to go on the handlebars/top tube to shout about it, one to show where the NFC tag can be read?

As mobile phones are starting to come out with NFC readers (various android, blackberry) this could be a reasonably low-cost tool for an officer in the street who needs to check if a bike is registered stolen/who should be riding it/who owns it/etc. They would just need an NFC-equipped phone with an app to query the database. NFC tags which can be programmed with a scheme ID/membership number/code can be bought for under £1 a tag, and they can be made permanent (so a thief can't change the tag once it's installed). So long as no personal information is stored on the tag the bike can be sold on (legitimately) and the new owner updates the details on the database.


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## e-rider (13 Sep 2012)

I would like to know exactly how many (%) high end bikes are actually recovered. These ideas are very much based on the idea of reuniting an owner with their bike 'if' it is recovered by the police - I'm guessing that most bikes are never seen again. What we need is to stop people taking the bikes in the first place. How about some specific legislation on bike theft, that makes guilty theives feel the full force of the law. If the government want more people to cycle, less people in cars driving, saving the environment, and getting fitter and healthier to remove some of the burden on the NHS, then the government should make it very clear that bike theft is highly anti -social and simply wont be tolerated i.e. prison sentences for theives as well as for those buying stolen bikes too. Most people are aware that a bike is dodgy but are happy to buy it anyway - this attitiude needs to change. Online sites such as ebay and gumtree need sorting out too - thousands of stolen bikes pass through these sites and nothing is done about it.


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## Rupie (20 Oct 2012)

Bike theft is hard to get investigate and police don't like unsolved crimes as it looks bad on their figures. This database is actually only for bike they come accross, not actuall ones found after investigation of individual crimes. A database that returns bikes to people who have probably replaced them does not stop the thefts in the first place. The only way to get the police to take any action on a stolen bike is if it get riden by a 14 yr old, already with penalty 39 points, at 60mph through a residential area, and then they would deploy the Police helicoptor (which is paid for by the govenment, unlike the one that takes us to hospital, when we get knocked off), 10 cars, 3 bikes and a stinger. Easy crime to detect, investgate and solve (good for the figures !!!)


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