# New eBike or convert old bike, latter how to select?



## ericmark (1 Apr 2019)

Moving house new one up hill from main road so to get home seems ebike is the way to go, wife has an ebike centre motor from halfords the Carrera Crosspath Electric Hybrid Bike - 18" which I have tried and like, however it is £1600 which is not cheap, I already have quite a good bike, so question is do I convert that bike or buy new? 

Looked at kits, the Bafang BBS01 seen at £350 to £450 and battery another £175 so even a conversion not cheap, and I can't really work out why a range in the price, it seems I remove the crank bearings and the kit replaces them I lose the three cogs at front and have to select, and to be frank I am a little uncertain about getting a kit which does not then do as expected, I see why to use kit for non road legal so one can in essence build an electric motor bike, but I am looking at street legal so not so sure if worth modifying existing bike?

OK existing bike old but good quality reasonable light but no disc brakes and looking at Halfords prices mid motor ebike start at £850 or £950 with disc brakes, and suspension and I can get a folding ebike for £500 with no gears which would mean could take on the bus, but not as good for riding.

At the moment the Carrera Vengeance E Mens Electric Mountain Bike seems about right as larger wheels more suitable for canal tow path however not mid motor so motor does not drive through gears like wife's. hers does seem the first in Halford range with centre motor, disc brakes, suspension however converting my mountain bike is heavy and cheap both wheels with suspension and disc brakes but so heavy with motor added could not carry on bike rack, and road bike calliper brakes no suspension already broke a rear wheel I assume because I am too heavy, so with extra weight of motor and battery would it take it?

Clearly no answer expected saying do this, but would like some feed back from people who have fitted mid motor kits, or used other ebikes, specially considering complete ebike has a frame designed to take the mid motor so alloy constructed frame rather than steel. 

Thoughts please.


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## roadrash (1 Apr 2019)

@raleighnut and @Pale Rider may be of help to you


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## Deleted member 23692 (1 Apr 2019)

The Bafang has a cadence sensor to control the motor assistance which I find quite brutal in operation as it's either on or off. Plus you'l need the brake lever mounted cut offs so the motor doesn't try to get you back up to speed if you move the pedals whilst braking. This can be quite scary

I'd recommend the TSDZ2 which has a torque sensor so it only put the power on if there is resistance in the crankset, which makes the power delivery far mor 'normal'. Plus as it doesn't require the brake lever cutoffs, it's a far neater install.

Both the TSDZ2 and BBS motors are crank mounted which means the motor can keep to a reasonably constant RPM (cadence) and the road speed is governed by the gears. Hub mounted motors don't have that advantage and need to accommodate all road speeds which motors don't like.

If you're feeling brave the TSDZ2 is a simple fit and should take the average home bike mechanic just a couple of hours using basic bike tools.

The battery fixes to the down tube using the bottle cage bosses - 2 bolts.
The motor assembly replaces the bottom bracket (standard 68/73 British thread)
Then put the display on the handlebars and put the speed sensor on the chain stay and magnet on the spokes
Finally connect the three cables to the battery unit - 1 to the motor, one to the display and one to the speed sensor
And apart from normal bike fettling, that is all there is to it.

Cost wise the motor kit was £295 delivered for the motor kit from China (via Germany, so no extra VAT no duty to pay) to my door. The battery (36v 14Ah with Panasonic cells) was sourced in the UK for £275.

I used this shop on AliExpress... and selected the UPS delivery option (as instructed). The motor arrived within a week(ish), dispatched from Germany with no extra to pay. Going by all the documentation/labels etc I assume they have a warehouse in Germany and dispatch EU orders from there.

Battery was UK Sourced, from here - http://www.eclipsebikes.com/ But they've gone up in price since I bought mine 







@keithmac, @Mike_P and @WIGHTDIAMOND use the same motor too, so might offer some more advice


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## Pale Rider (1 Apr 2019)

Kits aren't my thing, but I can tell @Ffoeg has done a tidy job on his crank kit, so he's worth listening to.

A hub motor - front or rear - conversion would be cheaper.

Reasonably pokey hub motors by the likes of Bafang are around £100.

As regards batteries, you may be aware the packs are made up of cylindrical cells wired in series and parallel to give the desired voltage.

A pack for £175 will likely use cheap cells - expect to pay double that for a decent pack.

The Halfords crank bike - confusingly they are all branded Carrera - uses the well thought of Bosch crank system.

Eclipse, as mentioned, is a reliable supplier of kit bits.

The big Chinese name in this market is BMS Battery who have more motors, batteries, kits and motor wheels than you could shake several sticks at.

Sales service is usually pretty good, but ultimately they are in China and you are in the UK.

It's never going to be worth sending your £99 motor back if it breaks.

https://bmsbattery.com/


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## KneesUp (8 Apr 2019)

Ffoeg said:


> The Bafang has a cadence sensor to control the motor assistance which I find quite brutal in operation as it's either on or off. Plus you'l need the brake lever mounted cut offs so the motor doesn't try to get you back up to speed if you move the pedals whilst braking. This can be quite scary
> 
> I'd recommend the TSDZ2 which has a torque sensor so it only put the power on if there is resistance in the crankset, which makes the power delivery far mor 'normal'. Plus as it doesn't require the brake lever cutoffs, it's a far neater install.
> 
> Both the TSDZ2 and BBS motors are crank mounted which means the motor can keep to a reasonably constant RPM (cadence) and the road speed is governed by the gears. Hub mounted motors don't have that advantage and need to accommodate all road speeds which motors don't like.


That's a neat install. I was looking at ebikes in Halfords yesterday because Mrs K wold like one to commute on - we work at the same place but the ride in - although short - is a choice between reasonably flat but very busy or reasonably quiet but quite lumpy, neither of which appeals to her. However, she would do the 'quiet but lumpy' route if she could arrive at work without being too hot, hence the ebike.

Anyway - all the ones in Halfords looked less suitable than her current Raleigh Misty, which she loves. This kit is interesting because it's so neat and I'd imagine helps with weight distribution. Her bike is a mixte frame so there is no room for the battery where yours is, even if it had bottle cage mounts, so I'd be looking at one of the rack batteries and some cabling I guess. Mid drive also means the front wheel can have a dynamo so I can fit 'always on' lights.

How much extra weight does it add minus the battery do you reckon? Mrs K would like sometimes to ride her bike without assistance (on family rides) I presume you can ride it without the battery without much penalty? Or is there resistance from the undriven motor?


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## ericmark (8 Apr 2019)

I can only talk about the Carrera Crosspath Electric Hybrid Bike - 18" which is regular on special offer so £1,280 at moment, with the motor switched off it is still OK to ride, no worse than my heavy mountain bike also from Halfords, however the gearing is set so 16 MPH is about the maximum, the front cog is a single dished unit so you only have the 9 rear speeds, clearly heavy add says 24 kg of which 2.6 kg is battery. 

Looking at non electric weight drops to around 16 kg, however to compare I looked at Halfords web site for the cheapest ladies bike with front suspension, and Hydraulic Disc Brakes to compare weight and price, and simply did not find one under the price of the electric bike. 

First thing my wife did was change the seat to a large blow up suspension one from Lidi, second was fit panniers to carry lock and puncture outfit, actually got a tin of blow up and repair grunge. Not weighed it after, but now must be well over 24 kg and yet no problem riding with motor switched off.

My concern however is the bike rack on car rated 40 kg so can't carry two electric bikes, unless we do some thing to reduce their weight. Although with disk brakes easy to remove wheel, question that comes to mind, is what happens to those discs when being shaken on a bike rack, would it need some thing to retain the pads? Why the Maypole NBC2040 3-Cycle Carrier Towbar Mounted is rated as a three bike carrier with max weight of 40 kg don't know, all three bikes would need to weigh less than 14 kg which seems unlikely, so would 42.8 kg for two bikes really be a problem? The car can take the weight, Kia Sorento but would I really need to remove wheels or would the extra 2.8 kg not matter?


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## Pale Rider (8 Apr 2019)

A £1,000 mountain bike might weigh 12kg, a roadie bike a bit less, so your 40kg rated rack could carry three average bikes.

Removing the batteries of your ebikes would bring the overall weight down to as near the limit as makes no difference.

You could remove the front wheels, the disc pads are located by a pin so they will not fall out.

What you need to avoid is squeezing the brake lever with the wheel removed.

Some bikes come with a brightly coloured piece of plastic to shove between the pads to act as a spacer.

Anything will do. I've used a lolly stick and a folded bit of cereal packet in the past.


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## Deleted member 23692 (8 Apr 2019)

KneesUp said:


> That's a neat install. I was looking at ebikes in Halfords yesterday because Mrs K wold like one to commute on - we work at the same place but the ride in - although short - is a choice between reasonably flat but very busy or reasonably quiet but quite lumpy, neither of which appeals to her. However, she would do the 'quiet but lumpy' route if she could arrive at work without being too hot, hence the ebike.
> 
> Anyway - all the ones in Halfords looked less suitable than her current Raleigh Misty, which she loves. This kit is interesting because it's so neat and I'd imagine helps with weight distribution. Her bike is a mixte frame so there is no room for the battery where yours is, even if it had bottle cage mounts, so I'd be looking at one of the rack batteries and some cabling I guess. Mid drive also means the front wheel can have a dynamo so I can fit 'always on' lights.
> 
> How much extra weight does it add minus the battery do you reckon? Mrs K would like sometimes to ride her bike without assistance (on family rides) I presume you can ride it without the battery without much penalty? Or is there resistance from the undriven motor?


Cheers  I have a long history of modifying cars where I was know for attention to detail  Lucky with that kit most of the cables were pretty much the right length or can be easily shortened. The only 'extra' bit of cable (about 1½ft too long) is folded in 4, bound in some heat shrink and stuffed between the rear mudguard and seat post. Other cables are held to other normal bike cables (gears and brakes) with spiral wrap.

Anywhoo, weights.... the motor kit is quoted at 3.6 kg, but I'm not sure what that quoted weight includes. Assuming that includes everything except the packaging (full parcel quoted at 5.4kg), then that's everything... motor, chainwheel , cranks, cables fittings and head unit. The Hailong battery on mine is quoted at approx 3.2kg all in (battery and mounting plate).

So the complete conversion adds around 7kg to a bike, and mine as pictured is around 20kg with rack, mudguards, pedals and hub gear. Considering the Cube Hyde donor bike was 12.8Kg I'm happy the above maths is in the right ballpark.

With the battery/motor off there is some resistance as you are still turning the motor, and it feels quite a heavy bike. But if you want to pedal unassisted then the lowest setting would more than compensate for the motor resistance and extra weight and feel more 'normal' except for the lower centre of gravity making the handling far better than a standard bike. On lowest setting then you'd be good for around 80k

The latest kits have an extra wire to tap off a feed for 6v front and rear lights which can then be operated via the head unit, so there's no need for a dynamo adding more resistance


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## Smudge (26 Jan 2020)

Ffoeg said:


> The Bafang has a cadence sensor to control the motor assistance which I find quite brutal in operation as it's either on or off. Plus you'l need the brake lever mounted cut offs so the motor doesn't try to get you back up to speed if you move the pedals whilst braking. This can be quite scary
> 
> I'd recommend the TSDZ2 which has a torque sensor so it only put the power on if there is resistance in the crankset, which makes the power delivery far mor 'normal'. Plus as it doesn't require the brake lever cutoffs, it's a far neater install.
> 
> ...



Really nice job you've made of that and the bike looks great in that colour.
Thinking of buying a TSDZ2 kit myself.... Any issues with the motor clearing the cables and cable guides under the BB ?
I guess it would only be the rear derailleur cable being left to clear on my bike, as the front chainring derailleur & cable would obviously be removed.


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## Mike_P (26 Jan 2020)

Smudge said:


> Really nice job you've made of that and the bike looks great in that colour.
> Thinking of buying a TSDZ2 kit myself.... Any issues with the motor clearing the cables and cable guides under the BB ?
> I guess it would only be the rear derailleur cable being left to clear on my bike, as the front chainring derailleur & cable would obviously be removed.


The TSDZ2 can have a front derailleur, mine is currently poorly with I suspect a failed torque sensor so is off the bike but it does allow for clearer photos. Yes the rear derailleur cable will most likely need rerouting. I used some rivnut fitted cable guides


If you do go for a front derailleur I found it needed offsetting with a spacer block and initially thought it was too wide but by chopping the shim for the derailleur mount so that the mount was hard up to the seat tube and the chopped bits of the shim fitted into the far side of the mount it worked okay


My original thoughts were to route the cable to the front derailleur along the top tube and down the seat tube but the top tube narrows noticeably towards the site tube and I did not fancy drilling a hole in for the rivnut so kept it along the downtube and used a chopped up part of an old type derailleur guide to turn it up the seat tube with appropriate use of a cable tie


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## Deleted member 23692 (26 Jan 2020)

Smudge said:


> Really nice job you've made of that and the bike looks great in that colour.
> Thinking of buying a TSDZ2 kit myself.... Any issues with the motor clearing the cables and cable guides under the BB ?
> I guess it would only be the rear derailleur cable being left to clear on my bike, as the front chainring derailleur & cable would obviously be removed.


Cheers  

I had to file down the cable guide a bit on the bottom bracket to enough clearance to fit the motor. The brake hose can no longer use the guide so simply fits to the side of it in the gap between the casing and BB shell, which is quite snug. 

Due to the cable guide still being there, I had to split the motor casing and fit it from both sides and bolt back together when on the bike. That wasn't an issue as I had the motor in bits to (re)pack more molydeb grease in the gearbox and de-bur the motor drive shaft (which meshes to the blue nylon gear): this is the key to longevity according to a very informative thread on a German ebike forum. The wee burs left over from manufacture chew up the nylon causing many a reported problem.

I could have filed down the cable guide completely and fitted the motor without disassembly, but the grease and de-bur are well worth doing... it's been 3 years now and it's still going strong. The only 'service' has been checking the grease.


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## Smudge (26 Jan 2020)

Mike_P said:


> The TSDZ2 can have a front derailleur, mine is currently poorly with I suspect a failed torque sensor so is off the bike but it does allow for clearer photos. Yes the rear derailleur cable will most likely need rerouting. I used some rivnut fitted cable guides
> View attachment 502144
> 
> If you do go for a front derailleur I found it needed offsetting with a spacer block and initially thought it was too wide but by chopping the shim for the derailleur mount so that the mount was hard up to the seat tube and the chopped bits of the shim fitted into the far side of the mount it worked okay
> ...



That's informative, thanks. I definitely wont need the front derailleur if i fit this kit. For my uses and where i go, the power of a crank drive motor plus 8 gears would be enough for me.


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## Smudge (26 Jan 2020)

Ffoeg said:


> Cheers
> 
> I had to file down the cable guide a bit on the bottom bracket to enough clearance to fit the motor. The brake hose can no longer use the guide so simply fits to the side of it in the gap between the casing and BB shell, which is quite snug.
> 
> ...



Very helpful, thanks.
Brake hoses won't be an issue as i have v brakes, so it'll only be the rear derailleur cable going under the BB. I'm pretty sure its just a plastic cable guide, which shouldn't stand too proud and will be easy to file down, but i'll have to check on that tomorrow.
Handy to know about the grease.
Was it just the two bottle cage bolts you used for the battery mount, or did you drill the downtube and fit more ?
I've just used the two in the past with a 9amp/hr batt mount and it seemed fine, although i did supliment the fixing with a couple of cable ties.


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## Deleted member 23692 (26 Jan 2020)

Smudge said:


> Very helpful, thanks.
> Brake hoses won't be an issue as i have v brakes, so it'll only be the rear derailleur cable going under the BB. I'm pretty sure its just a plastic cable guide, which shouldn't stand too proud and will be easy to file down, but i'll have to check on that tomorrow.
> Handy to know about the grease.
> Was it just the two bottle cage bolts you used for the battery mount, or did you drill the downtube and fit more ?
> I've just used the two in the past with a 9amp/hr batt mount and it seemed fine, although i did supliment the fixing with a couple of cable ties.


I put a 3rd rivnut in the down tube towards the head tube to support the top of the battery mounting plate as the bottle cage bolts on my frame were right at the bottom and left quite a bit of battery unsupported. You might be lucky and find yours are more centrally placed.

Agreed on not needing a front derailleur - I only use the top 3 gears on my 8 speed IHG, and it's easier to fit different sized front rings to tweak the ratio. And talking of front rings, I suggest you ditch the OE stamped steel ring for a narrow/wide one for better chain retention when using a rear mech.


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## Smudge (26 Jan 2020)

Ffoeg said:


> I put a 3rd rivnut in the down tube towards the head tube to support the top of the battery mounting plate as the bottle cage bolts on my frame were right at the bottom and left quite a bit of battery unsupported. You might be lucky and find yours are more centrally placed.
> 
> Agreed on not needing a front derailleur - I only use the top 3 gears on my 8 speed IHG, and it's easier to fit different sized front rings to tweak the ratio. And talking of front rings, I suggest you ditch the OE stamped steel ring for a narrow/wide one for better chain retention when using a rear mech.



Yes, the bottle cage bolts did fix centrally to a bottle battery mount i fitted on my last bike. I shall have to see where they work out on my current bike. I also wont be fitting too large a battery, i reckon 11 or 12 amp/hr will be enough for me.


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## Mike_P (26 Jan 2020)

Smudge said:


> That's informative, thanks. I definitely wont need the front derailleur if i fit this kit. For my uses and where i go, the power of a crank drive motor plus 8 gears would be enough for me.


Can be added later if you find the need arises, I found the cranks were maxing out too soon; remember legally the motor can only assist up to 15.5mph and anything beyond that is unassisted. There are still plenty of choices to make:
- Battery 36v or 48v. The latter seems generally to be recommended but my 36v one suits me okay and a 36v TSDZ2 is cheaper.
- Throttle and ebrake levers? The latter are not needed unless you are going to carry on pedalling whilst braking and a throttle will I understand make it illegal so a bit of money can be saved by buying a TSDZ2 without them.
- Stock or open source firmware. The open source firmware has apparently a number of advantages including showing up faults and better battery management. A USA seller sells the motor with the open source firmware and a better display
https://www.eco-ebike.com/collectio...ttle-and-e-brakes-36v-48v-52v-10-18a-250-750w
- Ebike lights or not. If you do opt for ebike lights running off the battery the normally supplied display VLCD5 display uses its power button as a light switch as well


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## Smudge (26 Jan 2020)

Mike_P said:


> Can be added later if you find the need arises, I found the cranks were maxing out too soon; remember legally the motor can only assist up to 15.5mph and anything beyond that is unassisted. There are still plenty of choices to make:
> - Battery 36v or 48v. The latter seems generally to be recommended but my 36v one suits me okay and a 36v TSDZ2 is cheaper.
> - Throttle and ebrake levers? The latter are not needed unless you are going to carry on pedalling whilst braking and a throttle will I understand make it illegal so a bit of money can be saved by buying a TSDZ2 without them.
> - Stock or open source firmware. The open source firmware has apparently a number of advantages including showing up faults and better battery management. A USA seller sells the motor with the open source firmware and a better display
> ...



I dont need to go any faster than 15.5mph and unassisted i couldn't sustain a higher speed than that anyway.
I fitted a throttle with the last ekit i fitted to a previous bike, but i never used the throttle after i fitted the pedal sensor, much preferring the simplicity and natural feeling of a pedelec sensor.
Interesting about the firmware and lights, i may look into that more. 
Thanks for the info.


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## CXRAndy (27 Jan 2020)

@Smudge 

If you go over to endless sphere forum -non hub drive section. The developer of the open firmware 'casshino' posts information. Also there is a wiki site listing lots of information about how to do setups, programming etc. 

The latest developments are better displays with more memory for added features- Bluetooth programming. Improved motor control and safety functions


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## Mike_P (4 Mar 2020)

Just to update on my TSDZ2 the replacement torque sensor was of a different design with the cabled part having a large plastic section protecting the cable and seemingly only using two springs not three. Whilst that fitted okay the main part with the spindle which appeared the same would not slide home unlike every YouTube video on the matter I have seen. A last resort was to hit it with a hammer and it fitted but obviously it did not do it any good as on complete reassembly there was a grinding noise back pedelling and the motor remained dead. So I have abandoned the motor and will place known good parts on eBay. At present the unused SW102 display that needs the appropriate cable making up or purchased http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/710-5...29508&kwid=902099&mtid=824&kw=lg&toolid=11111
and the speed sensor which unlike the majority that are available has a Y connector for lights.
http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/710-5...29508&kwid=902099&mtid=824&kw=lg&toolid=11111


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