# Cycling / Camping advice



## Ootini (13 Jan 2015)

Hi all,
I'm planning a 4/5 day cycling-camping trip in the spring. It will be a 40 mile/day circular route around North Wales. There's be three of us (so far) on the trip, so we can divide up the weight of kit over our three bikes. We're not planning on carrying everything, we'll be eating at cafe's etc where we can, so only really need emergency / can't be bothered paying for it food.
Basically my question is: If the three of us are riding road bikes (Spesh Allez, Cube race and my Ridley XBow running road tyres) are we going to encounter any "bike" related issues? Personally I can't think of any, but then I see a lot of people raving about "touring bikes". For such a short trip I'm unsure as to what benefits a "touring" bike would have over our CX/Road bikes?

This is the proposed route: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/T...631386dc50bf!2m2!1d-3.3270948!2d53.309807!3e1


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## Ootini (13 Jan 2015)

For what it's worth I'm planning on taking:
My usual cycling stuff, so top, shorts, gloves etc
Vango ark 200 tent
Cheapo sleeping bag
Bike tool kit
1st aid kit
Emergency food
Spare undies / socks
T shirt
Shorts
Compass
Spare batteries for bike lights (torches)
Map
Small gas stove
Coffe mate / sugar / coffee
Phone
Power pack for phone
Self inflating sleeping mat
Hat

Anything I've missed?


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## Turbo Rider (13 Jan 2015)

Comfort and sturdiness, I think.


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## Profpointy (13 Jan 2015)

Assuming you can carry your stuff (ie tents & sleeping bags) on the bike somehow, no problem that I can see; presumably limited to saddle bags & bar bags rather than panniers given so-say "road" bikes. If carrying stuff in rucksacks, then pretty miserable. Another question is whether they're low enough geared for the extra weight of kit, hilliness of North Wales etc - only you can answer that


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## Ootini (13 Jan 2015)

Profpointy said:


> Assuming you can carry your stuff (ie tents & sleeping bags) on the bike somehow, no problem that I can see; presumably limited to saddle bags & bar bags rather than panniers given so-say "road" bikes. If carrying stuff in rucksacks, then pretty miserable. Another question is whether they're low enough geared for the extra weight of kit, hilliness of North Wales etc - only you can answer that



I'm actually planning on fitting panniers to my CX bike as it has the eyelets etc to take them. Not sure about the Spesh and Cube


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## Profpointy (13 Jan 2015)

Ootini said:


> I'm actually planning on fitting panniers to my CX bike as it has the eyelets etc to take them. Not sure about the Spesh and Cube



Job's a good 'un then !


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## Ootini (13 Jan 2015)

Turbo Rider said:


> Comfort and sturdiness, I think.


That's what I thought, but the way I see it. We've done 40 mile rides consecutively, so I think for this length of trip the standard saddles will be fine. Maybe some extra padding in the shorts.


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## raleighnut (13 Jan 2015)

Wash bag and a towel, unless you plan on emptying the café from day 3 onwards.


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## Profpointy (13 Jan 2015)

raleighnut said:


> Wash bag and a towel, unless you plan on emptying the café from day 3 onwards.



bar of soap, and that day's T-shirt will suffice respectively


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## Ootini (13 Jan 2015)

With all this in mind, does anyone have a recommendation for a rear rack and dual pannier combo? This isn't likely to become a very regular affair so I'd really rather not pay a fortune for Ortliebs et al. Just looking to spend around £50-60 for both rack and bags if that's doable. Are all racks compatible with all bags? Or do they need to be matched up somehow?
I intended to slap the tent on the top of the rack, with sleeping bag and everything else in the bags.

I was thinking this: http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/tor-tec-tour-rear-rack-with-spring-clip-prod23683/
plus this: http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/sjsc-rear-pannier-bags-prod11550/ - Are these really only a tenner each?! That basically makes them a consumable. **In fact it looks like they're a tenner for two! This is starting to look like a no-brainer until someone tells me otherwise.

I know the bags aren't waterproof, but if it absolutely lashes it down the trips off. I'll be stashing the contents in bin bags probably.


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## raleighnut (13 Jan 2015)

The larger £18.99 one would be better, plus that has zipped smaller pockets for keeping things separate (you'll be amazed that whatever you need is always at the bottom of the pannier. )


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## Gravity Aided (13 Jan 2015)

Sleeping bag is going to take up a lot of space in a bag, better put it with the tent on top, with self-inflating sleeping mat. Then you'll have room for food, water, and clothes in bags, You'll also want a couple of inner tubes, so you don't have to break out a repair kit if a puncture occurs. Water, and a way of carrying it. Raincoat/poncho.Something to write up your trip with, and a camera. Those last two most valuable. Phone may work for that, but I prefer a separate camera with zoom capability, and an actual keyboard or pen and paper.


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## Ootini (13 Jan 2015)

raleighnut said:


> The larger £18.99 one would be better, plus that has zipped smaller pockets for keeping things separate (you'll be amazed that whatever you need is always at the bottom of the pannier. )



I think the £10 bags have small zipped compartments.


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## Ootini (13 Jan 2015)

Gravity Aided said:


> Sleeping bag is going to take up a lot of space in a bag, better put it with the tent on top, with self-inflating sleeping mat. Then you'll have room for food, water, and clothes in bags, You'll also want a couple of inner tubes, so you don't have to break out a repair kit if a puncture occurs. Water, and a way of carrying it. Raincoat/poncho.Something to write up your trip with, and a camera. Those last two most valuable. Phone may work for that, but I prefer a separate camera with zoom capability, and an actual keyboard or pen and paper.



I'm thinking if space is an issue, which it will be, I'll ditch the sleeping mat. Good point about adding the sleeping bag up top with the tent though. I'd probably leave my mini saddlebag attached, which include spare tubes, repair kit etc. For water I have a pair of bottle cages on the bike with 750ml bottles for each, I can always top them up as and when so wouldn't think carrying large quantities would be necessary. I have a lightweight shower proof jacket I stuff in my back pocket and for photos I'd stick with phone, I'm a crap photographer anyway.


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## Profpointy (13 Jan 2015)

Ootini said:


> With all this in mind, does anyone have a recommendation for a rear rack and dual pannier combo? This isn't likely to become a very regular affair so I'd really rather not pay a fortune for Ortliebs et al. Just looking to spend around £50-60 for both rack and bags if that's doable. Are all racks compatible with all bags? Or do they need to be matched up somehow?
> I intended to slap the tent on the top of the rack, with sleeping bag and everything else in the bags.
> 
> I was thinking this: http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/tor-tec-tour-rear-rack-with-spring-clip-prod23683/
> ...



having had a crap pannier rack, several in fact, I'd be wary of the cheapest racks, That said, thing might be better these days if you get a recognised make (Topeak or some such even if you don't want to stretch to Tubus blingtastic titanium), and to be fair SJS are probably not going to sell rubbish - at least I'd hope not. I'd expect to spend £40 on the rack alone to be honest.
Ortliebs are great, but something adequate can probably be had a good bit cheaper.

All that said, whilst none of us want to spend needlessly, Ortliebs, though top-end price & quality wise are very much worth the money if you can afford it. Bear in mind they'll have ongoing value carting stuff back from the shops, commuting to work, and not just if you tour again - which you probably will. Remember a pair of Ortliebs is cheaper than a cheap pair AND Ortliebs later


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## raleighnut (13 Jan 2015)

Ootini said:


> I think the £10 bags have small zipped compartments.


Ah but if you will edit the linkies  I bit of advice DO Not ditch the mat/self inflating mattress, you will be very cold without one.


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## Ootini (13 Jan 2015)

Profpointy said:


> Remember a pair of Ortliebs is cheaper than a cheap pair AND Ortliebs later



True, however, seeing as this is my first outing I'm thinking of testing the water with the, possibly crap, £10 bags. I could then "upgrade" to Ortliebs or similar but splashing out £70+ for something that may be a one off isn't my cuppa tea. 
With regards to the rack, what kind of issues would one encounter with a cheapo rack like the one listed, I'm assuming it would just be "flimsy-ness"?


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## Ootini (13 Jan 2015)

raleighnut said:


> Ah but if you will edit the linkies  I bit of advice DO Not ditch the mat/self inflating mattress, you will be very cold without one.


Sorry about that, I didn't realise you'd replied before I edited.


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## mcshroom (13 Jan 2015)

Your CX bike is basically a light tourer anyway, though it may be a little higher geared than a standard tourer. I've used a number of racks over the years which were below that £40 figure (in fact I think only my Tubus Tara front rack cost that much). THat rack looks like it should be fine, unless you have disc brakes. If you do have discs you will need to get a disc-specific one as they are designed to fit round the brake caliper which otherwise gets in the way.

With the panniers they look like they would hold up for the tour. Non locking hooks on the top mean you need to make sure the bungee is attached as otherwise rough surfaces might shake the bag off (DAMHIKT )

Are you sure that 30 litres total is enough though? Especially with food/water to add on top of your permanent kit. Before buying the gear I'd be tempted to gather it all up and work out the sizes first.

Also don't bother going too thin on the tyres. With the extra weight on the back, having a bit more volume in the tyres will mean you are less likely to get a pinch flat, and it should make the ride a little smoother. As you are riding a CX rather than a tight clearance roadie, then (unless you already have the tyres), you might as well use the extra clearance for something like 32mm Schwalbe Marathons


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## Ootini (13 Jan 2015)

mcshroom said:


> Your CX bike is basically a light tourer anyway, though it may be a little higher geared than a standard tourer. I've used a number of racks over the years which were below that £40 figure (in fact I think only my Tubus Tara front rack cost that much). THat rack looks like it should be fine, unless you have disc brakes. If you do have discs you will need to get a disc-specific one as they are designed to fit round the brake caliper which otherwise gets in the way.
> 
> With the panniers they look like they would hold up for the tour. Non locking hooks on the top mean you need to make sure the bungee is attached as otherwise rough surfaces might shake the bag off (DAMHIKT )
> 
> ...




Hi thanks for the info. 
The CX bike has v-brakes so no need for a disc brake specific rack.
I have no idea what DAMHIKT means I'm afraid.
We're probably going to be eating at shops / cafes / pubs etc So I'm going to take enough food for one or two meals (dehydrated camping type stuff).
The bike is currently running Continental 25mm road tyres, but I'm thinking for the purposes of this tour, I might stick the Griffo 32mm CX tyres back on, not 100% on this yet.


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## mcshroom (13 Jan 2015)

DAMHIKT = Don't Ask Me How I Know That


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## Profpointy (13 Jan 2015)

Ootini said:


> True, however, seeing as this is my first outing I'm thinking of testing the water with the, possibly crap, £10 bags. I could then "upgrade" to Ortliebs or similar but splashing out £70+ for something that may be a one off isn't my cuppa tea.
> With regards to the rack, what kind of issues would one encounter with a cheapo rack like the one listed, I'm assuming it would just be "flimsy-ness"?



Ortlieb snobbery aside, I'd be inclined to risk cheapo panniers within reason, as they should at least work. With some gaffer tape and cable ties, you can probably bodge a get-you-home if the worst happens. A bad rack is an unmitigated pain. Admittedly my worst rack was very cheap indeed, and I doubt you can anything quite that bad these days, so I might have a jaundiced view. It wouldn't attach properly, wobbled about and was generally too flimsy, though in fairness the rear triangle on the bike I had then wobbled about as well.. Design wise, I'm dubious on the "single point" attachment style of rack, even from a good make.


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## Bodhbh (13 Jan 2015)

Ootini said:


> True, however, seeing as this is my first outing I'm thinking of testing the water with the, possibly crap, £10 bags. I could then "upgrade" to Ortliebs or similar but splashing out £70+ for something that may be a one off isn't my cuppa tea. With regards to the rack, what kind of issues would one encounter with a cheapo rack like the one listed, I'm assuming it would just be "flimsy-ness"?



SJS can be a little steep pricewise sometimes, but those panniers look a bargin. At least on paper. I'd like to think their own brand stuff would be okay...

Some racks can flex alot, but unless you're going off-road or going totally silly with the weight will probably be fine If you shelled out on a Tubus or something (try Rose bikes not SJS) it would be absolutely solid.


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## steveindenmark (13 Jan 2015)

Benefits of a touring bike over your CX on a trip like this?

If you get racks fitted to your CX and don't put too much weight on it you will be fine.

The benefits of a touring bike is that they have at least rear racks and most have a triple chain ring and a good ratio of gears to get up big hills.

But your CX will be fine. I do short trips like yours on my scooter without any problem and so a CX will be a doddle. I would just try and not have a backpack on try to restrict your weight to around 15kg

When it comes to panniers you need to have a think. If you intend to tour quite regularly I would go for Ortleibs. They are not eliteist, they are simply the best. I have spent lots of money on many sets of cheap panniers until I bought my Ortleibs.


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## Ootini (13 Jan 2015)

One more quick question.
The tent we will be using has enough room inside for three people to sleep, that's it. No room for storage etc, so the panniers will be staying on the bikes. I was thinking, we could simply lock all three bikes together using one lock, and use a second lock to connect them to an "object" post, street lamp etc and simply cover the three bikes using a cheapo waterproof tarpaulin type thing. It won't make the bikes particularly difficult to steal, but they'd be near the tent and I don't think even a ninja could get the three bikes apart etc without waking us up. Any obvious errors in this thinking ?

Something like this, but hopefully a lighter weight version: http://www.halfords.com/cycling/too...olutions/bikehut-all-weather-multi-bike-cover or even just a bit of old tarp cut to shape.

It's main job would be to cover / disguise the bikes as opposed to really protect them from the elements as such. As I pointed out earlier, if the weather was truly foul, the trip would be off.


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## Bodhbh (13 Jan 2015)

Ootini said:


> The tent we will be using has enough room inside for three people to sleep, that's it. No room for storage etc, so the panniers will be staying on the bikes. I was thinking, we could simply lock all three bikes together using one lock, and use a second lock to connect them to an "object" post, street lamp etc and simply cover the three bikes using a cheapo waterproof tarpaulin type thing. It won't make the bikes particularly difficult to steal, but they'd be near the tent and I don't think even a ninja could get the three bikes apart etc without waking us up. Any obvious errors in this thinking?



Sounds okay to me. When I go off with my mate, we put his D-lock thru both frames and my cable lock thru both + wheels + whatever's kicking about. If there's nothing, then no worries - two 18kg touring bikes d-locked together are pretty hard to ninja. My tent is too small, and I tend to leave most of the panniers on the bike as well. Don't see it as a big issue, the panniers are prolly worth more than anything left in them over night.


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## KneesUp (13 Jan 2015)

I have an Axiom Transit rack I got off eBay for £13 inc delivery - it's light and sturdy and is rated up to 60kg. I've not had it long, but it seems fine so far.

EDIT - although if you have 700c wheels and/or big bags you might want one that has the extra support bit at the bag (so three bits of metal coming from the mount) to stop your bag rubbing your back wheel.


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## Ootini (13 Jan 2015)

KneesUp said:


> I have an Axiom Transit rack I got off eBay for £13 inc delivery - it's light and sturdy and is rated up to 60kg. I've not had it long, but it seems fine so far.
> 
> EDIT - although if you have 700c wheels and/or big bags you might want one that has the extra support bit at the bag (so three bits of metal coming from the mount) to stop your bag rubbing your back wheel.



Three rods like this ?


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## Ootini (13 Jan 2015)

Bodhbh said:


> Sounds okay to me. When I go off with my mate, we put his D-lock thru both frames and my cable lock thru both + wheels + whatever's kicking about. If there's nothing, then no worries - two 18kg touring bikes d-locked together are pretty hard to ninja. My tent is too small, and I tend to leave most of the panniers on the bike as well. Don't see it as a big issue, the panniers are prolly worth more than anything left in them over night.



Do you cover the bikes up at all over night? Or just leave them exposed?


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## KneesUp (13 Jan 2015)

Ootini said:


> Three rods like this ?


Yep that's it - mine doesn't have the rearmost ones - it's study as anything, but I only have 26" wheels and the bag did rub a tiny bit at first before I tightened up the bag fixings, and it's still quite close - but then it's a laptop bag for a 17" latop, so quite long. For a tenner it's a great rack if it will work for you, but if it doesn't it will be annoying I'd have thought  It is light though - it doesn't have a sprung bit, but I've never seen the point of them (my mum's shopper had one) as even if you can get wedge shaped things to fit under them, they don't seem to hold things very well. Or at least the one on my mum's shopper didn't  Just get bungee chords.


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## vernon (13 Jan 2015)

Ootini said:


> Do you cover the bikes up at all over night? Or just leave them exposed?



It's a fallacy to think that a tarp draped over the bikes disguises their 'bikeness' If the bikes are adequately locked the only thing that you need to cover are the seats with a carrier bag to keep them dry if it rains. The carrier bag can be stuffed between the seat rails during the day.


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## mcshroom (13 Jan 2015)

Also tie a guy rope from the tent to them if they are close enough. Hopefully you'll notice the tent moving while they try and untie it.


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## Bodhbh (13 Jan 2015)

Ootini said:


> Do you cover the bikes up at all over night? Or just leave them exposed?



Just leave them. I did go thru a phase of tarping the bikes, but it seemed like more trouble than it was worth. Like Vernon says, it probably doesn't hide them, and if it does hide them, the magpies will no doubt assume it's something even more worth nicking.


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## xilios (13 Jan 2015)

We tie them together using a cable lock, stand them up next to the tent and connect a 120db purse alarm with a fishing line to one of the wheel spokes, if they are moved during the night the whole camping is awake.
We know it works as we've forgotten the alarm a couple of time


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## steveindenmark (13 Jan 2015)

For securing a bike or two to the floor when camping is easy enough. Get 2 dog lead skewers and have the small gap in the ring welded closed.

Screw the skewers into the floor about 1 meter apart. Screw them down as far as they can go. Lay your bikes on top of the skewers and secure with wires and locks. Make the wires as tight as possible.


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## doog (13 Jan 2015)

Ootini said:


> Do you cover the bikes up at all over night? Or just leave them exposed?



leave them, it takes some balls to steal a bike from outside a zipped up tent and unless your'e in a large commercial site at the height of summer I wouldnt worry.

As for the racks etc, if its a one off for a short trip get the cheapest , take some cable ties and a small reel of gaffa tape should the worst happen but it wont. Your only issue might be the spoke count / strength of your rear wheel if you are going to start lobbing weight on there.


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## Ootini (14 Jan 2015)

doog said:


> Your only issue might be the spoke count / strength of your rear wheel if you are going to start lobbing weight on there.



I'm just running the standard 4za wheels that came with the bike, I'm taking a guess that with the rack, bags, tent and other kit I'll be adding about 8kg(?) to the rear wheel load.


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## Gravity Aided (14 Jan 2015)

KneesUp said:


> Yep that's it - mine doesn't have the rearmost ones - it's study as anything, but I only have 26" wheels and the bag did rub a tiny bit at first before I tightened up the bag fixings, and it's still quite close - but then it's a laptop bag for a 17" latop, so quite long. For a tenner it's a great rack if it will work for you, but if it doesn't it will be annoying I'd have thought  It is light though - it doesn't have a sprung bit, but I've never seen the point of them (my mum's shopper had one) as even if you can get wedge shaped things to fit under them, they don't seem to hold things very well. Or at least the one on my mum's shopper didn't  Just get bungee chords.


I prefer straps to bungees, lack of elasticity is a plus in this instance.


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## Ootini (14 Jan 2015)

Gravity Aided said:


> I prefer straps to bungees, lack of elasticity is a plus in this instance.


By the you mean ratchet straps I assume? Or something less, aggressive?


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## jay clock (14 Jan 2015)

One issue not mentioned is heel clearance. Touring bikes are built with a longer wheelbase, and road bikes with narrow clearances can mean your heel bangs the panniers...


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## Gravity Aided (14 Jan 2015)

Ootini said:


> By the you mean ratchet straps I assume? Or something less, aggressive?


Just stuff like the standard nylon webbing straps are fine. You can get them at outdoor stores. Bungees sometimes stretch when the bike is bouncing, letting stuff loose. Smaller ratchet tie downs wouldn't be a bad idea, it's just the hardware is a bit heavy. I sometimes get old woven fabric belts at a thrift store. Those work out pretty well. A lot of my touring was done when there wasn't a lot of special bike touring equipment like you see now a days. Maybe a Pletscher rack and a bag or two. Touring bike? You gonna ride that thing how far?


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## doog (14 Jan 2015)

Ootini said:


> I'm just running the standard 4za wheels that came with the bike, I'm taking a guess that with the rack, bags, tent and other kit I'll be adding about 8kg(?) to the rear wheel load.



Just avoid pot holes



jay clock said:


> One issue not mentioned is heel clearance. Touring bikes are built with a longer wheelbase, and road bikes with narrow clearances can mean your heel bangs the panniers...



had this on my CX but managed to get the panniers back far enough on the rack


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## Blue Hills (15 Jan 2015)

Ootini said:


> I'm thinking if space is an issue, which it will be, I'll ditch the sleeping mat.



This sounds like a thoroughly bad idea.

You should have a mat of some description between you and the ground.

This isn't just for "squishiness" but also for thermal insulation.

At least take a £5 foam mat.


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## xilios (15 Jan 2015)

You should do everything possible to have a comfortable nights sleep, a proper mat and sleeping bag are essential.


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## Gravity Aided (15 Jan 2015)

Otherwise, you'll feel every bump and tiny detail of the ground, just enough to keep you from getting to sleep at night. As well as the ground insulation from cold.


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## Ootini (16 Jan 2015)

Think the roll mat is back in the kit list


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## Ootini (17 Jan 2015)

I ordered the £10 pannier bags. Gotta say I'm impressed, they may not be up to Ortlieb standards, but for the money they're cracking !


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## Gravity Aided (17 Jan 2015)

10 pound pannier bags probably won't hold up long term, but they'll get you going, and hopefully hold up for the whole tour. I'd find zippers and hardware to be the problem, and those could be fixed, for a bit. But I'd also start watching eBay for something better.


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## Ootini (17 Jan 2015)

Yep, the weak point I've noticed is the zips on the small pockets are quite stiff, and withthe little skirt of material covering them, making them even more awkward to open I can see the zips being the first thing to go . But, with any luck, they'll survive the trip and if I catch the touring bug, I may well splash out on something a bit more robust.


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## Gravity Aided (17 Jan 2015)

Ortliebs are good, but cost a great deal. Others are cheaper, some have comparable quality. I like the top roller design, but good YKK zippers on older panniers are also quite good. Waterproof, weight, wearability- watchwords for panniers.


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## Blue Hills (17 Jan 2015)

Is weight that important in a pannier considering the amount of *** you are likely to be carrying?


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## Gravity Aided (17 Jan 2015)

By weight, I mean weight of fabric, I should certainly have clarified that. All goes to durability, in my book. When you consider whata loaded touring bicycle weighs, the weight of the panniers themselves make only a little difference. Now just wait a month or two, and I'll have some pictures of my new panniers to replace the crappy Schwinn panniers I had. I made these out of Preen garden weeder containers, and they are solid, sealable plastic. More streamlined than kitty litter containers, as they are narrower, and with a sealing and lockable plastic top. Just have to transfer the fixtures from the Schwinn Panniers, or make new fixtures. Not a priority now, as the touring steeds are in bits in the basement right now. My ****load is about 25-30 pounds, as is the bicycle.


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## Alan Frame (17 Jan 2015)

Ootini said:


> Yep, the weak point I've noticed is the zips on the small pockets are quite stiff, and withthe little skirt of material covering them, making them even more awkward to open I can see the zips being the first thing to go . But, with any luck, they'll survive the trip and if I catch the touring bug, I may well splash out on something a bit more robust.



Run a pencil along the zip a few times, the graphite will lubricate it.


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## Prometheus (18 Jan 2015)

Ootini said:


> Hi all,
> I'm planning a 4/5 day cycling-camping trip in the spring. It will be a 40 mile/day circular route around North Wales. There's be three of us (so far) on the trip, so we can divide up the weight of kit over our three bikes. We're not planning on carrying everything, we'll be eating at cafe's etc where we can, so only really need emergency / can't be bothered paying for it food.
> Basically my question is: If the three of us are riding road bikes (Spesh Allez, Cube race and my Ridley XBow running road tyres) are we going to encounter any "bike" related issues? Personally I can't think of any, but then I see a lot of people raving about "touring bikes". For such a short trip I'm unsure as to what benefits a "touring" bike would have over our CX/Road bikes?
> 
> This is the proposed route: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/Trelogan, Holywell, Flintshire CH8 9BY/Bala Lake/Criccieth/Aberdaron/Nefyn/Bangor/Rhos on Sea/Trelogan CH89BY/@53.170269,-4.0137627,9z/data=!4m55!4m54!1m5!1m1!1s0x48652adc814660c1:0xb5e631386dc50bf!2m2!1d-3.3270948!2d53.309807!1m5!1m1!1s0x486543ca9cc3d33d:0xc391119aeecc7a74!2m2!1d-3.6088066!2d52.8972141!1m5!1m1!1s0x4865980d6aae4e47:0xcab61fe06b43cb73!2m2!1d-4.233645!2d52.919565!1m5!1m1!1s0x4865e57c871d1d9d:0xa72c55112d44738a!2m2!1d-4.711515!2d52.804729!1m10!1m1!1s0x486595368c40c9bb:0xb15ce10e0ceac44b!2m2!1d-4.520111!2d52.9356549!3m4!1m2!1d-4.3681489!2d53.0188807!3s0x4865bce5dec89641:0x758fff4ec07e75a8!1m5!1m1!1s0x486500b5803334ff:0xb0aacaceceaf4ebf!2m2!1d-4.129263!2d53.22739!1m5!1m1!1s0x48651f8810602de3:0xfdca101d80460a9!2m2!1d-3.7499412!2d53.3080507!1m5!1m1!1s0x48652adc814660c1:0xb5e631386dc50bf!2m2!1d-3.3270948!2d53.309807!3e1



“YOU’VE NEARLY STOLEN MY ROUTE” 
Except for a few diversions up some hills, to make it more challenging!

Road bike is just fine, if you keep to road at Llannulas to Rhyl because
of tons of sand and pebbles on trail, need a 4,4
May see you in the spring, good tour route low car and HGV.


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## Ootini (19 Jan 2015)

Prometheus said:


> “YOU’VE NEARLY STOLEN MY ROUTE”
> Except for a few diversions up some hills, to make it more challenging!
> 
> Road bike is just fine, if you keep to road at Llannulas to Rhyl because
> ...


You've actually added hills intentionally?!?!


----------



## Ootini (19 Jan 2015)

*UPDATE*

Right then kids, the Panniers turned up and as I said, I was quite impressed with them considering the cost, but I still had to find a pannier rack. I was going to grab the Tortec one listed earlier, but on Sunday I was driving past my LBS, which don't stock huge amounts of kit, but figured I'd see what they had anyway. The bloke in the shop rooted around in the stock room and eventually came back with a Raleigh RSP adjustable rack, I think it's also rebranded as an Avenir Pioneer rack, I was a bit dubious at first, with it being an adjustable rack, but then he clinched the deal, by offering it for £15 as there were a few scratches on it, and a bolt or two missing. He did however replace the missing bolts and fit it for me, free of charge, which was handy as it looked properly faffy to get it fitted properly, I'd have balls'd it up.
So, rack fitted, bags fitted (with random camping kit). Added the tent to the top of the rack and realised the tent is way, way too big! 3.5kg and about 80cm long when packed. It's a leisure tent to be fair, not a hiking tent. So that's been ditched and I've bought a cheap as chips 1 man hiking tent coming in at 1.4kg and 30cmx20cm packed. I've also replaced my tiny, thin crappy tesco sleeping bag with a slight heavier Vango jobbie.


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## mcshroom (19 Jan 2015)

Sounds like you are getting ready


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## Ootini (19 Jan 2015)

mcshroom said:


> Sounds like you are getting ready


To be honest, what I'm trying to do is get most of the kit together, so I can start riding the bike with everything loaded. Need to build my fitness up, carrying weight on the bike and getting used to how it handles, probably won't actually be going camping until March / April.


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## mcshroom (19 Jan 2015)

Nothing wrong with planning ahead. I'm just putting together a camping tour along the Lon Las Cymru second week of March. It's a good way to keep exited when the weather's bad outside.


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## Ootini (19 Jan 2015)

mcshroom said:


> Nothing wrong with planning ahead. I'm just putting together a camping tour along the Lon Las Cymru second week of March. It's a good way to keep exited when the weather's bad outside.


Holyhead all the way to Cardiff?


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## mcshroom (19 Jan 2015)

Ootini said:


> Holyhead all the way to Cardiff?



Other way actually. Get the train down Sunday evening, five days up the route from Monday morning and then train home from Holyhead on the Saturday


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## Gravity Aided (19 Jan 2015)

Will a 1 man tent be big enough? Some can be rather "form fitting"and don't allow much room for gear.


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## KneesUp (19 Jan 2015)

Gravity Aided said:


> Will a 1 man tent be big enough? Some can be rather "form fitting"and don't allow much room for gear.


Good point. The best value tent I ever had was £9.99 from Tesco. It was a two-man, which meant it had room for me and my bag (I was travelling by car so had a long holdall with most of my stuff in). The tent didn't weigh much, was really easy to put up and was weatherproof enough for August in Scotland. Plus, did I mention I got change from a tenner? Not sure what happened to it now though - I suspect it got left behind in the house I had with the first Mrs KneesUp.


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## Ootini (19 Jan 2015)

Gravity Aided said:


> Will a 1 man tent be big enough? Some can be rather "form fitting"and don't allow much room for gear.


To be honest, the plan is the tent takes me, clothes and a torch, the rest stays on the bike.


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## Ootini (19 Jan 2015)

My bike is currently running Continental Grandprix 700*25c tyres. I also have a spare set of Griffo Challenge CX 700*32c tyres. I ditched the CX tyres due to their very knobbly tread and rolling resistance.
Should I switch back to the CX tyres for the extra width, cushioning etc considering the extra weight? Or will the 25mm tyres be OK?


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## Gravity Aided (19 Jan 2015)

Keep the load light, and 25 mm should be okay. I would prefer 32 mm if carrying heavier loads. Much will depend on road surfaces to be encountered.


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## Ootini (19 Jan 2015)

At a wild guess, I think I'm going to be adding about 10Kg to the overall bike weight. Based on:
Pannier bags and rack: 1.5kg
Sleeping bag: 1.5kg
Tent: 1.5kg
Clothes: 1kg
General camping equipment: 2kg
Water in bottles: 1.5kg
Bike tools etc: 1kg

All very rough guesses btw.


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## Ootini (19 Jan 2015)

My list:

Bike
Lights (on the bike)
Pump (on the bike)
Bike Locks (on the bike)
Water Bottle x2 (on the bike)

Helmet (worn when cycling)
Mitts (worn when cycling)
Shorts x1 (worn when cycling)
Shoes (worn when cycling)
Jacket (in jersey pocket)
Jerseys x1 (worn when cycling)
Cycling Glasses (worn when cycling)


Inner Tubes x2 (in tool kit)
1st Aid Kit inc Insect spray (in pannier)
Tool kit (in pannier)
Tent (on top of rack)
Sleeping Mat (on top of rack)
Sleeping Bag (on top of rack)
Gas stove (in pannier)
Gas (in pannier)
Kettle (in pannier)
Insulated mug containing coffee, sugar n dried milk in bag. (in pannier)
Spoon for above (in pannier)
Tooth Brush + Tooth Paste (in pannier)
Small Towel (in pannier)
Convertible walking trousers (in pannier)
T-Shirt x1 (in pannier)
Fleece (in pannier)
Underwear x2 (in pannier)
Phone (in pocket)
Battery pack for phone (in pannier)
Wet Wipes (in pannier)
Socks x2 (in pannier)
Carrier bags (under bike seat)
Couple of spare AAs (in tool kit)
Cable Ties (in tool kit) 
Gaffer tape (in tool kit)
Hand Wash (in pannier)
Credit card / Cash (in pocket)

If I've missed anything obvious, please let me know.


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## Gravity Aided (19 Jan 2015)

32 mm tires


----------



## Ootini (19 Jan 2015)

You think that kit list warrants bigger tyres ?


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## raleighnut (19 Jan 2015)

Ootini said:


> You think that kit list warrants bigger tyres ?


Well I'd want 28s but if you've got 32s. The 25s will have to be kept very hard to cope and will be a bit 'harsh' (unless you like fixing 'snakebite' punctures)


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## Crankarm (20 Jan 2015)

Ootini said:


> My list:
> 
> Bike
> Lights
> ...



Kitchen sink?


----------



## Profpointy (20 Jan 2015)

Crankarm said:


> Kitchen sink?



ortlieb do a portable one - I kid you not


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## Crankarm (20 Jan 2015)

Blimey you do seem to be making your trip ……… complicated. When I have ridden in Wales I just made a short list, loaded up my bike and set off. Riding in central and north wales on deserted roads, lanes, tracks and wild camping in summer has been some of my most enjoyable touring I have done. Waterproof panniers i.e. Ortlieb or better still Vaude are a must as if you can't get all your stuff inside your tent. You want it to be dry when you wake up the next morning as it rains a lot in Wales. I never bothered locking my bike even when stopping at supermarkets. I did take an Abus D-lock on my first tour but didn't the next as I found it was just taking up too much space and the extra weight. I always found somewhere safe to leave my bike or some one to watch over it for 10-15 minutes.

There are some brilliant roads to ride such as the Devil's staircase, all the way up in one, fully loaded. Plan your routes on OS 1:50k Landranger maps or GPS with 1:50k OS mapping. One of my favourite roads is the mountain road from Llanidloes to Machynlleth which cuts due west from the B4518 up and over dropping steeply into Machynlleth. Great wild camping on top with tremendous views as the sun sets. There is also the mountain road that goes from Abergavenny to Hay on Wye past Lord Hereford's Knob in the Black Mountains which is in the opening and final credits of Antiques Roadshow. There is so much good riding in Wales with little traffic if you plan your routes carefully.

One day I plan to do the Sarn Helen an old Roman route from Worms Head on the Gower Peninsula all the way to Conwy Castle in North Wales, 270miles and 8820m of climbing on Cambrian tracks so MTB needed.

Btw you missed,

Windproof fleece hat/beanie as it still may be cold of a morning and evening.
Buff or neck fleece.
Washing line to hang up kit to dry

I wouldn't wear cotton T-shirts when riding bad idea as cotton absorbs moisture not very good at wicking and slow to dry plus smells with BO. Also I wouldn't bother with trainers as they will take up too much space just wear your cycling shoes, all the better if they are SPDs for walking in.

Have fun.


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## Crankarm (20 Jan 2015)

Profpointy said:


> ortlieb do a portable one - I kid you not



Yeah I know I have seen it. Great for caravanners and glampers but cyclists? Just carry an old style dish cloth and wipe items clean as you use them and wash out cloth when you have access to ample water. Simples.


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## Gravity Aided (20 Jan 2015)

Ootini said:


> You think that kit list warrants bigger tyres ?


oh hayul yes!


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## Ootini (20 Jan 2015)

Crankarm said:


> Kitchen sink?



What should I leave out? 

p.s. I'm not intending to cycle in a cotton t-shirt. The t-shirt will be an UnderArmour style lightweight top to wear when off the bike.


----------



## Ootini (20 Jan 2015)

Quick question, with regards to tyre width, if I'm adding approximately 10-11kg to the overall weight on the bike, is tyre width that big an issue? I only ask as 11kg is only 1.7 stone and no one in this thread (I think) has any idea what I weigh.
For what it's worth, I'm dead on 13 stone, so, if I weighed 14.7 stone, would I still be advised to shift from 25mm tyres up to 32mm?
I hope this question doesn't sound confrontational, it's not supposed to, it just seems odd that carrying 11kg of kit means I should increase tyre width, but my own body weight, never came in to the discussion. Is this because the rider weight is distributed evenly, where as the kit will be mostly over the rear wheel? Or is it something else?
Ta

I reckon, all the kit, me, plus the bike comes in at a grand total of 110kg or there abouts.

Another point, in case it makes a difference, the route will be on purely paved roads, no dirt or loose stuff. Proper roads.


----------



## Ootini (20 Jan 2015)

Crankarm said:


> Yeah I know I have seen it. Great for caravanners and glampers but cyclists? Just carry an old style dish cloth and wipe items clean as you use them and wash out cloth when you have access to ample water. Simples.


I'm not going to be eating on the road so to speak, basically I'll be hitting pubs / cafes for food. This is a credit card tour with a tent I guess.


----------



## Gravity Aided (20 Jan 2015)

Weight over rear tire is mainly my reasoning here. You might carry a couple of spokes as well. My touring bike has a braze-on to hold 2, but I usually, on anything of any distance, carry 4. You might also want a little duck tape as well.


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## mcshroom (20 Jan 2015)

To be honest I'd expect you'd probably be ok on the 25s, as you are sticking to tarmac roads I think, but the ride on the wider tyres would be less harsh. The trade off would end up being the extra noise/drag of the CX tyres.

Have a go at loading your stuff up on the bike and riding around a bit on the 25s and see what it feels like.


----------



## Ootini (20 Jan 2015)

mcshroom said:


> To be honest I'd expect you'd probably be ok on the 25s, as you are sticking to tarmac roads I think, but the ride on the wider tyres would be less harsh. The trade off would end up being the extra noise/drag of the CX tyres.
> 
> Have a go at loading your stuff up on the bike and riding around a bit on the 25s and see what it feels like.



Yep, that's the plan, then maybe try the 32s to compare, but the 32s I already own, on tarmac really make it feel like I'm riding through syrup!


----------



## KneesUp (20 Jan 2015)

Ootini said:


> Yep, that's the plan, then maybe try the 32s to compare, but the 32s I already own, on tarmac really make it feel like I'm riding through syrup!


That might be a psychological thing rather than a physical - wider tyres roll better. This article https://janheine.wordpress.com/2014/01/01/tires-how-wide-is-too-wide/ is very interesting. (I run 26 x 1.5" tyres so may be biased, but the science seems pretty conclusive)


----------



## Profpointy (20 Jan 2015)

I'd not overthink the tyres. You're not taking stupid amounts of long-distance across-the-Gobi-desert stuff, so "normal" width tyres should be fine - perhaps pumped up a bit more, and look out a bit more for potholes.


----------



## Ootini (20 Jan 2015)

KneesUp said:


> That might be a psychological thing rather than a physical - wider tyres roll better. This article https://janheine.wordpress.com/2014/01/01/tires-how-wide-is-too-wide/ is very interesting. (I run 26 x 1.5" tyres so may be biased, but the science seems pretty conclusive)


Really? I'm pretty sure I can "feel" the tyres just running smoother, especially on mild descents. I feel less knackered on hills, and the tyres definitely feel grippier on fast corners. I guess it could be psychological, and attributed to my fitness improving. Never really thought about it, just assumed the slicks would be faster / more efficient, and they definitely felt it when I swapped over.
I think maybe it's the lack of tread / knobblyness on the 25s as opposed to the actual tyre width that makes them feel faster.


----------



## KneesUp (20 Jan 2015)

Ootini said:


> ...
> I think maybe it's the lack of tread / knobblyness on the 25s as opposed to the actual tyre width that makes them feel faster.



Yes it will be - in the research they were comparing the same model of tyre in different widths. I hadn't realised yours were different.


----------



## Ootini (20 Jan 2015)

KneesUp said:


> Yes it will be - in the research they were comparing the same model of tyre in different widths. I hadn't realised yours were different.


Ah no problem, the 32s are chunky Griffo Challenge CX tyres, which are nice in the muck but horrible on tarmac, very squirrelly in corners, if that makes sense. Where as the 25s are continental gp4000 something or others. Very soft and sticky.


----------



## Ootini (20 Jan 2015)

Gravity Aided said:


> Weight over rear tire is mainly my reasoning here. You might carry a couple of spokes as well. My touring bike has a braze-on to hold 2, but I usually, on anything of any distance, carry 4. You might also want a little duck tape as well.



This might be a very silly question, but apart from 700c are there any other size or "type" variations for spokes? I'm just googling spare spokes now.


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## andym (20 Jan 2015)

KneesUp said:


> but the science seems pretty conclusive)



I can't provide you with the link (or at least I don't have time to go hunting for it), but according to Schwalbe, all other things being equal, tyres at the same pressure will give the same rolling resistance. HOWEVER, generally though, wider tyres run at lower pressures.

There is a perfectly good argument though that the extra cushioning from the wider tyres compensates for the extra rolling resistance.


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## Gravity Aided (20 Jan 2015)

Ootini said:


> This might be a very silly question, but apart from 700c are there any other size or "type" variations for spokes? I'm just googling spare spokes now.


There are all sizes of spokes, and your drive side spokes are shorter. There are galvanized or stainless steel, butted or straight gauge.


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## Ootini (20 Jan 2015)

Gravity Aided said:


> There are all sizes of spokes, and your drive side spokes are shorter. There are galvanized or stainless steel, butted or straight gauge.


Balls!
Never easy is it? So apparently I need 88, 87 and 84mm spokes. One of each ?


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## KneesUp (20 Jan 2015)

Ootini said:


> Balls!
> Never easy is it? So apparently I need 88, 87 and 84mm spokes. One of each ?


At least. This is the ideal set-up.







(As you say, you're only taking 10kg of stuff, and if you weighed 10kg more I doubt you'd be taking spare spokes - it's not like you're on a month long trek though the wilderness!)


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## Gravity Aided (20 Jan 2015)

Just good to have, a couple ounces of spokes could save the day.


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## KneesUp (20 Jan 2015)

This is one of the reasons I swapped all my components onto my 26" frame from the 700c one. Tough as boots, 26" wheels.


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## psmiffy (20 Jan 2015)

Ootini said:


> Balls!
> Never easy is it? So apparently I need 88, 87 and 84mm spokes. One of each ?



IIRC the tour is 200miles or less over 5ish days - worrying about spokes would seem to be overkill - on my first continental tour before I sussed that spokes were not supposed to break (ie have a rear wheel up to the job) I rode over 500km with less than a full set on my rear wheel. Since then I have never had a spoke break nor have I ever carried spokes.


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## Yellow Saddle (21 Jan 2015)

Ootini said:


> Balls!
> Never easy is it? So apparently I need 88, 87 and 84mm spokes. One of each ?


Spokes on 26" wheels are usually between 260 and 268mm and on 700C wheels usually 290 to 295mm long. The ones you listed are for racing pram wheels.


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## Ootini (21 Jan 2015)

Hmmm that was from one of those online chat support things.... I think I'll chance the spokes, we'll never be too far from a shop.


----------



## tournut (25 Jan 2015)

Ootini said:


> With all this in mind, does anyone have a recommendation for a rear rack and dual pannier combo? This isn't likely to become a very regular affair so I'd really rather not pay a fortune for Ortliebs et al. Just looking to spend around £50-60 for both rack and bags if that's doable. Are all racks compatible with all bags? Or do they need to be matched up somehow?
> I intended to slap the tent on the top of the rack, with sleeping bag and everything else in the bags.
> 
> I was thinking this: http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/tor-tec-tour-rear-rack-with-spring-clip-prod23683/
> ...


Pannier i use is a dunlop twin sportsdirect works well and cheap, lasted me 3years


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## paddypete (27 Jan 2015)

i think,the gearing will be a test,getting up hills with an extra 15-20 kgs against the wind,lovely stuff,at least you'll sleep well!


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## tournut (27 Jan 2015)

psmiffy said:


> IIRC the tour is 200miles or less over 5ish days - worrying about spokes would seem to be overkill - on my first continental tour before I sussed that spokes were not supposed to break (ie have a rear wheel up to the job) I rode over 500km with less than a full set on my rear wheel. Since then I have never had a spoke break nor have I ever carried spokes.


If you want to carry spare spokes drop them down the frame where seat is . Dont forget to tape them up as you dont want a rattle when riding. You need a q.r on sea post.


----------



## raleighnut (27 Jan 2015)

tournut said:


> If you want to carry spare spokes drop them down the frame where seat is . Dont forget to tape them up as you dont want a rattle when riding. You need a q.r on sea post.


Only if you've got a sealed cartridge BB, I wouldn't do it on an external bearing with through shaft set up or a standard square taper.


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## Gravity Aided (27 Jan 2015)

Good point there, @raleighnut, or there may be another noise in BB thread afoot.


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## tournut (27 Jan 2015)

raleighnut said:


> Only if you've got a sealed cartridge BB, I wouldn't do it on an external bearing with through shaft set up or a standard square taper.


Yea thats right forgot to mention that, cheers


----------



## raleighnut (27 Jan 2015)

The old way was to tape them to the seat stay with electrical tape.


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## tournut (27 Jan 2015)

raleighnut said:


> The old way was to tape them to the seat stay with electrical tape.


Just to mention, most cyclist who do long tours and camp should know that thay should have a sealed bb, if not you will always have problems,


----------



## raleighnut (27 Jan 2015)

tournut said:


> Just to mention, most cyclist who do long tours and camp should know that thay should have a sealed bb, if not you will always have problems,


Tosh, my Ridgeback has a standard square taper, all I do is change the bearings every couple of years and that's done 20,000 miles roughly since I've had it (mind you I also turn the cranks one flat every time I change the bearings to prevent excessive wear in one spot on the shaft)


----------



## tournut (27 Jan 2015)

raleighnut said:


> Tosh, my Ridgeback has a standard square taper, all I do is change the bearings every couple of years and that's done 20,000 miles roughly since I've had it (mind you I also turn the cranks one flat every time I change the bearings to prevent excessive wear in one spot on the shaft)


Wot ever. But when touring around europe or south america over the past 3years stick with a sealed unit.that will stop mucking around. I thought this site was for information, not for slaging others off. Try long distance tours you may understand. P.s i dont want a reply. Thought i may have been a help to others thats all.


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## paddypete (28 Jan 2015)

tournut said:


> Pannier i use is a dunlop twin sportsdirect works well and cheap, lasted me 3years


 i've got simmilar on the rear (Xtension triple jobbie ) woul hold all your kit and yer mates too,however,i dont use the top bag,and got a pair of front bags on ebay,£16 and i like them,so i spread the wieght between the 4 ,about 3kgs per bag,and it feels well balanced,and if im going to the shops,i just put one of the front ones on the back


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## bigjim (31 Jan 2015)

I've got those £10 panniers. I've used them for a few tours. They are still going strong. I bought a spare set but they are still in the wrappers. Bargain.


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## paddypete (31 Jan 2015)

dead right,you only need what you need,thers to much snobbery in todays throw away society,ride man ride!


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## Cringles (31 Jan 2015)

Can anyone recommend cheap front panniers? With camping & cooking gear, it's just a bit too much on the back.


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## bigjim (31 Jan 2015)

Those £10 panniers are for front or rear.


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## Cringles (31 Jan 2015)

I'm not seeing the post in which you mentioned the name. My eyes just aren't working.


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## bigjim (31 Jan 2015)

Cringles said:


> I'm not seeing the post in which you mentioned the name. My eyes just aren't working.


http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/sjsc-rear-pannier-bags-prod11550/


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## Cringles (31 Jan 2015)

bigjim said:


> http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/sjsc-rear-pannier-bags-prod11550/



Thank you. I don't know why I was looking on sports direct :O


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## Profpointy (31 Jan 2015)

tournut said:


> Wot ever. But when touring around europe or south america over the past 3years stick with a sealed unit.that will stop mucking around. I thought this site was for information, not for slaging others off. Try long distance tours you may understand. P.s i dont want a reply. Thought i may have been a help to others thats all.



Cripes the guy's only off for a couple of days. I'm sure whatever BB he's got fitted already will be perfectly fine (assuming it's in good order to start with)


----------



## Gravity Aided (31 Jan 2015)

But he may choose to make a fun and enjoyable pastime of touring. It's quite habit forming, IMHO.


----------



## Blue Hills (1 Feb 2015)

Crankarm said:


> Yeah I know I have seen it. Great for caravanners and glampers but cyclists? Just carry an old style dish cloth and wipe items clean as you use them and wash out cloth when you have access to ample water. Simples.


I don't have one but will get one.
It's very adaptable/useful.
Can also be used for washing clothes in and standing in for an imlromptu wild shower. 
Lidl did an knock/off one for a fiver a while ago, but i don't know if it's any good.

Plus one crznkarm to your suggestion of a hat and a buff kneck/fleece.


----------



## Blue Hills (1 Feb 2015)

Ootini said:


> Quick question, with regards to tyre width, if I'm adding approximately 10-11kg to the overall weight on the bike, is tyre width that big an issue? I only ask as 11kg is only 1.7 stone and no one in this thread (I think) has any idea what I weigh.
> For what it's worth, I'm dead on 13 stone, so, if I weighed 14.7 stone, would I still be advised to shift from 25mm tyres up to 32mm?
> I hope this question doesn't sound confrontational, it's not supposed to, it just seems odd that carrying 11kg of kit means I should increase tyre width, but my own body weight, never came in to the discussion. Is this because the rider weight is distributed evenly, where as the kit will be mostly over the rear wheel? Or is it something else?
> Ta
> ...


I'd personally use 37 or 38 tyres for any sort of loaded touring.
Believe me, the bike won t feel slow, just stately


----------



## Ootini (2 Feb 2015)

Profpointy said:


> Cripes the guy's only off for a couple of days. I'm sure whatever BB he's got fitted already will be perfectly fine (assuming it's in good order to start with)



True. I think if I "really" take to touring, I'd make a few more mods to the bike to make it more tour friendly. Which would include a chainset upgrade to a triple, probably changing BB too. But for now, it's fine.


----------



## Ootini (2 Feb 2015)

Quick question, my bike has carbon front forks, I've been told this means fitting front panniers is a no-no. Is that correct?

If that is the case, does anyone have any pointers on a cheap n cheerful handle bar bag for stuffing bits n bobs in to. Or am I better using the bar space to strap the sleeping bag to?


----------



## tournut (2 Feb 2015)

Ootini said:


> Quick question, my bike has carbon front forks, I've been told this means fitting front panniers is a no-no. Is that correct?
> 
> If that is the case, does anyone have any pointers on a cheap n cheerful handle bar bag for stuffing bits n bobs in to. Or am I better using the bar space to strap the sleeping bag to?


Need to change forks, i would not risk carbon. And you need to try put sleepbag at the back, wind is a killer with bag at front.


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## Ootini (2 Feb 2015)

tournut said:


> Need to change forks, i would not risk carbon. And you need to try put sleepbag at the back, wind is a killer with bag at front.


Good point, hadn't thought about the aerodynamics of a bag up front! Cheers. TBH I don't I'll need front panniers at the mo, was just a thought. Thanks

Think I'm just gonna pop some smaller, heavier bits in the bar bag to even the weight distribution out a little.


----------



## Profpointy (2 Feb 2015)

Ootini said:


> Quick question, my bike has carbon front forks, I've been told this means fitting front panniers is a no-no. Is that correct?
> 
> If that is the case, does anyone have any pointers on a cheap n cheerful handle bar bag for stuffing bits n bobs in to. Or am I better using the bar space to strap the sleeping bag to?




Not merely because they're carbon, but they won't have the fittings for front panniers, so non-touring steel forks won't be suitable (for front panniers) either. That said, for a few days, I'd not want to take so much stuff that you need front panniers at all.

If you do want a front bag, the Ortlieb handlebar bag is rather good, and though still Ortlieb prices is a good bit cheaper than their panniers - well, there's only the one bag I suppose. Handy for everyday use for a couple of tools and your sandwiches etc too.


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## Gravity Aided (3 Feb 2015)

If you need to carry enough to require a front set of panniers, I'd try and source an old vintage touring bicycle. Longer chainstays will lessen the chance of your heels striking the bags as you ride, longer wheelbase, while making the steering slower, makes for a very deliberate ride as well, comfy yet sporty. Better to have a machine built to purpose, at that point up the road. Triple chainring, sealed BB, lots of fine and elegant dangles and bangles go into the touring bicycle. But that's in the future. Your panniers look quite enough to carry out your present touring plan.


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## Steam Pig (4 Feb 2015)

Ootini said:


> My list:
> 
> Bike
> Lights (on the bike)
> ...



Lighter


----------



## Gravity Aided (4 Feb 2015)

Unless small gas stove has an ignitor. Otherwise, 3 pack of lighters is dirt cheap.


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## tournut (4 Feb 2015)

Steam Pig said:


> Lighter


Allways good to have a couple of plastic pegs, just to clip tent door open, save allways tieing door back.


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## tournut (5 Feb 2015)

To day thought i would load my tourer up with full kit, front and rear panniers. Then do a trial run alty to chester and back. I hit the wall. Thought would be ok. God i have been training all winter just with rear panns. Must be getting to long in the tooth .


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## Ootini (11 Feb 2015)

Latest (revised) kit list. Bear in mind this is a three-four day tour maximum. Eating at cafes/pubs.

**Rack top**

Sleeping bag in dry bag
Tent pole
Tent fly & pegs in mesh bag
Straps *

**Left rear pannier**

Tent inner in dry bag
Sleeping mat in compression sack
Small knife

**Right rear pannier**

Clothes in dry bag:
1 Spare cycling jersey
1 Zip off walking pants
2 Cycling socks
1 Hiking socks *
2 boxers
1 lightweight fleece
1 t-shirt

1 Wash kit (toothpaste, toothbrush, deodorant, soap)
1 medium sized light weight travel towel *
1 Vango stove + gas
1 Small kettle
1 Travel mug + spoon
1 wet wipes

**On bike**

Computer
Lights
Pump
Lock (wrapped around stem)
1st aid kit inc insect rep (strapped to bar/stem)
750ml water bottle
Tool bidon:
2 spare tubes *
2 Multitool
Tyre levers
Scabs
AA batteries
Cable ties


**On rider**

1 cycling shorts
1 cycling jersey
1 cycling socks
1 Cycling shoes
1 Cycle helmet
1 Shower proof jacket (jersey pocket)
1 pr Cycling gloves
1 pr Waterproof cycling gloves (jersey pocket)
1 pr Cycling sun glasses
Watch
Phone


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## raleighnut (11 Feb 2015)

I'd add a quicklink to the toolkit provided one of the multitools has a linksplitter. Other than that its similar to what I'd use for a 'weekender' apart from the tent, I use a Topeak Bikamper and I take a Gelert 'chair' that just has a seat and a backrest (no legs and adjusts with 2 side straps but folds flat.)


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## Ootini (11 Feb 2015)

raleighnut said:


> I'd add a quicklink to the toolkit provided one of the multitools has a linksplitter. Other than that its similar to what I'd use for a 'weekender' apart from the tent, I use a Topeak Bikamper and I take a Gelert 'chair' that just has a seat and a backrest (no legs and adjusts with 2 side straps but folds flat.)



Ahha! I had thought of adding something to sort the chain out, and my multitool does have a chain splitter. However, I would have absolutely no idea how to use it or a quicklink. Think some youtubing is in order!


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## Ootini (12 Feb 2015)

Anyone see any glaring errors in my thinking here?


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## raleighnut (12 Feb 2015)

the tent



__ raleighnut
__ 12 Feb 2015





My tent at 'Off The Tracks' festival. The chair is the blue thing in between the forks and the inner.
I think I may be in it as the Photo was taken by Phil Bull and posted on e-festivals website by him.


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## tomshooter (12 Feb 2015)

Wow I've never seen the Bikamper tent before...I have used my bike, a tree and a tarp, but that is a different level of lightweight!

Ootini I reckon your kit list looks good, I would however make one vital addition...Gaffa Tape. No need to take a whole roll of course, to keep things light, wrap a two metre length around an old credit card. I've held pannier bags, waterproofs and even skin together over the years, wouldn't leave the house without it!


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## steve451 (12 Feb 2015)

Ootini said:


> Anyone see any glaring errors in my thinking here?



Would not bother with the Kettle, for flexibility take a small aluminium(light) pan with lid , on the off chance you do want to heat up a tin of beans as well as boil water, easy to pack stuff in the empty pan with big elastic band to keep lid on.
A few medium freezer bags are good to keep feet/hands warm and keep odd and sods dry if it rains a lot.
I use a dual sun/insect repellent cream saves a tiny bit of space/clutter.


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## Gravity Aided (13 Feb 2015)

I do take a little camping coffee percolator, made by Mirro. Very small and weighs next to nothing. Strong and efficient, almost all aluminum, excepting the plastic perk bulb at the top.


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## MichaelW2 (13 Feb 2015)

For-cook-free camping I like to take some cutlery for picnics, eg spork, and a small cup in case someone offers me a "campfire" drink (2 stacked coffee machine cups work well). A swiss army knife covers a lot of food uses but I don't like to mix food and repair tools.
General fixing stuff is useful, 1-2m of duck-tape wrapped around pump, zip ties (found on lamp-posts in France/Spain), (para)chord for lashing stuff on bike

The One Big Problem with using your bike as a tent support is, of course, now you can no longer ride it. Trips into town are almost obligatory for cooking-free camping.


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## raleighnut (13 Feb 2015)

MichaelW2 said:


> For-cook-free camping I like to take some cutlery for picnics, eg spork, and a small cup in case someone offers me a "campfire" drink (2 stacked coffee machine cups work well). A swiss army knife covers a lot of food uses but I don't like to mix food and repair tools.
> General fixing stuff is useful, 1-2m of duck-tape wrapped around pump, zip ties (found on lamp-posts in France/Spain), (para)chord for lashing stuff on bike
> 
> The One Big Problem with using your bike as a tent support is, of course, now you can no longer ride it. Trips into town are almost obligatory for cooking-free camping.


You just make sure the campsite is near a pub that does food.


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## Gravity Aided (13 Feb 2015)

I just use one of the Boy Scout type utensil sets, which all fit together on rivets standing proud of the spoon, and are quite compact. You can get these in any good outdoors store, if you weren't in scouts . Good and compact solution, I still use mine everyday.


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## Ootini (13 Feb 2015)

Good thinking re: a pan instead of kettle and the boy scout utensil set!


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## Profpointy (13 Feb 2015)

if you're making tea then I'd take a kettle - especially if it's a trangia or similar. Doesn't weigh much, although it all adds up , but at least it reduces the mankiness of camping tea - which is never the best. It shouldn't taste of last night's soup at least


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## andrew_s (15 Feb 2015)

tomshooter said:


> Wow I've never seen the Bikamper tent before...


Pointless things. Not cheap, not light, and stop you from riding down to the shop after you've put your tent up.
Lighter, cheaper, more weatherproof


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## raleighnut (15 Feb 2015)

andrew_s said:


> Pointless things. Not cheap, not light, and stop you from riding down to the shop after you've put your tent up.
> Lighter, cheaper, more weatherproof


My Bikamper has been fantastic and has always had positive comments both from cyclists and other campers when it's on a campsite, fits lovely on the handlebars too.


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## tournut (15 Feb 2015)

Profpointy said:


> if you're making tea then I'd take a kettle - especially if it's a trangia or similar. Doesn't weigh much, although it all adds up , but at least it reduces the mankiness of camping tea - which is never the best. It shouldn't taste of last night's soup at least


Dump the kettle you carnt beat a coffee in the morning with a slight hint of the night before dinner.


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## andrew_s (15 Feb 2015)

raleighnut said:


> has always had positive comments both from cyclists and other campers


I don't doubt it. People look, think "really neat idea", assume that no poles means lighter, and don't take time to consider practicalities.That's why you can still buy them.


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## Gravity Aided (15 Feb 2015)

tournut said:


> Dump the kettle you carnt beat a coffee in the morning with a slight hint of the night before dinner.


 No manky stew-tasting tea for me, thank you. Of course, I use the kettle for all boiling water situations, now that I have one. But I also carry a percolator for coffee. I save weight elsewhere.


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## Ootini (16 Feb 2015)

i'm fortunate in that in my opinion Coffee technology peaked with the introduction of freeze dried Nescafe. Proper coffee isn't my cuppa tea.


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## Gravity Aided (16 Feb 2015)

Been known to use freeze dried Folgers, if I don't want to carry percolator, but it's small. I know of some fellows carry little espresso makers as well.


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## tomshooter (16 Feb 2015)

I don't own one yet (I usually carry a small espresso maker), but these are apparently superb and very lighweight: 
http://goo.gl/SEzwnG


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## Blue Hills (16 Feb 2015)

Cripes

That looks like a lot of clutter.

Small espresso stove for me.


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## Ootini (24 Feb 2015)

I'm thinking of switching the packing a little.
I'm thinking the sleeping bag in it's stuff sack in one of the rear panniers. The tent then separated in to small dry bags to keep the inner from the fly, but both stuffed in a bigger dry bag on the top of the rack. 
Does that make more sense? The sleeping bag does fit in the rear pannier with the mat, but only just.


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## Fnaar (2 Mar 2015)

steve451 said:


> Would not bother with the Kettle, for flexibility take a small aluminium(light) pan with lid , on the off chance you do want to heat up a tin of beans as well as boil water, easy to pack stuff in the empty pan with big elastic band to keep lid on.
> A few medium freezer bags are good to keep feet/hands warm and keep odd and sods dry if it rains a lot.
> I use a dual sun/insect repellent cream saves a tiny bit of space/clutter.


Kelly Kettle: carry it on the rack, between the panniers, with your tent
http://www.kellykettle.com/


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## raleighnut (2 Mar 2015)

I never put my kettle into the panniers or rucksac (when backpacking) it just hangs from its handles on one of the straps the 'traditional way'.


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## HOU5EY (6 Mar 2015)

Very interesting post, getting me in the mood for summer ☺I've also been looking for a set of panniers recently mainly for lugging all our family's kit down the beach, picnics and hopefully camping trips! I've found these but they're not waterproof, on the flip side the price looks good and they look like they can hold a lot of stuff. Are they worth considering?

http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/381145292628


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## Ootini (6 Mar 2015)

I chose not to go for a triple set as I wanted flexibility on what I could stick on top of the rack. Otherwise, for a tenner, you can't really go wrong.


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## Ootini (7 Mar 2015)

[QUOTE 3574783, member: 9609"]You learn the importance of economising when you have to carry it all on your back.[/QUOTE]
No, I won't. Honestly.
The thought alone makes me gag.


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## Gravity Aided (7 Mar 2015)

I try to carry big enough kettle to make both tea and soba or something.. I also dislike macaroni and cheese, though. Proper tea is a cornerstone of cycle camping, although I like coffee too. I'll be better off by dieting a few pounds off when the weather breaks, than by carrying less in terms of kettle and percolator.


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## Tojo (7 Mar 2015)

Ootini said:


> No, I won't. Honestly.
> The thought alone makes me gag.




I walked up to a remote tarn in the lakes to fly fish for the utterly wild brown trout with all the gear on my back to fish a couple more tarns over the next couple of days, any way fished the first tarn and caught a lovely brownie, took a photo of it next to my rod and thought will I have said brownie for dinner tonight and then thought do the right thing and give it it's freedom after surviving that long in that harsh mountain environment, what a grave mistake I made, Had a freeze dried meal instead and suffered 10 f**gging hours of heartburn.....you live and learn.


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## andym (7 Mar 2015)

Tojo said:


> Had a freeze dried meal instead and suffered 10 f**gging hours of heartburn.....you live and learn.



The guilt would probably have lasted longer than the heartburn.


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## raleighnut (7 Mar 2015)

HOU5EY said:


> Very interesting post, getting me in the mood for summer ☺I've also been looking for a set of panniers recently mainly for lugging all our family's kit down the beach, picnics and hopefully camping trips! I've found these but they're not waterproof, on the flip side the price looks good and they look like they can hold a lot of stuff. Are they worth considering?
> 
> http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/381145292628


My Partner has got a very similar set on her bike (might even be the same) and you will be surprised at how little 28 litres is, good starter/commuting set though but for carrying lots of stuff a bit piddling. Maybe I'm spoiled though as I have a pair of Carradice that are 35-40 litres each for big stuff along with varying sizes of Topeak bags with drop down panniers.
Bargain at that price though, Maz paid £19.99 for hers 4 years ago.


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## Gravity Aided (7 Mar 2015)

Probably not bad for the front, though,but I'd hate to have smaller panniers for anything over a couple of days out. Otherwise, you will have to really lighten the load, and do some minimalist cycle camping.


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## Ootini (10 Mar 2015)

I've decided to start blogging my adventures in bike-packing. Or as my wife likes to call it, wasting money on a mid-life crisis. If anyone is interested in reading, commenting, offering advice, mocking etc... Here's the link: https://bikepackingonabudget.wordpress.com


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## KneesUp (10 Mar 2015)

Ootini said:


> I've decided to start blogging my adventures in bike-packing. Or as my wife likes to call it, wasting money on a mid-life crisis. If anyone is interested in reading, commenting, offering advice, mocking etc... Here's the link: https://bikepackingonabudget.wordpress.com


Shoes and bags = necessary and justified
Cycling equipment = silly hobby, probably a waste of money

(I've been married twice)


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## Gravity Aided (10 Mar 2015)

Very nice blog.


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## raleighnut (10 Mar 2015)

Ootini said:


> I've decided to start blogging my adventures in bike-packing. Or as my wife likes to call it, wasting money on a mid-life crisis. If anyone is interested in reading, commenting, offering advice, mocking etc... Here's the link: https://bikepackingonabudget.wordpress.com


Start looking at old MG cars and Harley Davidsons, she'll soon come round to the idea that a bit of cycle touring is harmless.
I'd suggest carrying at least one luxury/comfort item. For me It is a small glass as I dislike drinking a single malt out of a plastic vessel and 'necking' it from the bottle is so not on.


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## Ootini (10 Mar 2015)

raleighnut said:


> Start looking at old MG cars and Harley Davidsons, she'll soon come round to the idea that a bit of cycle touring is harmless.
> I'd suggest carrying at least one luxury/comfort item. For me It is a small glass as I dislike drinking a single malt out of a plastic vessel and 'necking' it from the bottle is so not on.


I've done the MGB restoration. Nightmare! Total nightmare. They're horrible pieces of old s**t that should be scrapped at the earliest opportunity!


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## Profpointy (10 Mar 2015)

Ootini said:


> I've done the MGB restoration. Nightmare! Total nightmare. They're horrible pieces of old s**t that should be scrapped at the earliest opportunity!



Morris Marina convertible one might say


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## Ootini (10 Mar 2015)

Profpointy said:


> Morris Marina convertible one might say



That's exactly where the 1.8 lump came from!


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## raleighnut (10 Mar 2015)

Actually the lump is earlier than the Marina  they were not making them in the early 60s when the MGB was launched. I think the lump came from the Morris Oxford/Austin Cambridge the 'Farina' bodyshell as it was known (my Uncle sold Dad a similar car, the Vandem Plas Princess but that had a 4 litre Rolls Royce engine, 15MPG on a run, about 6 round villages/town )


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## Profpointy (10 Mar 2015)

raleighnut said:


> Actually the lump is earlier than the Marina  they were not making them in the early 60s when the MGB was launched. I think the lump came from the Morris Oxford/Austin Cambridge the 'Farina' bodyshell as it was known (my Uncle sold Dad a similar car, the Vandem Plas Princess but that had a 4 litre Rolls Royce engine, 15MPG on a run, about 6 round villages/town )



I guess I should have said "Morris Oxford convertible" but was afraid of losing my younger readers. I quite like those Farina barges - especially in Wolsey or Rilley trim. And I could certainly imagine myself driving (or being driven in) a Princess R which would be a fine carriage indeed


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## GrumpyGregry (10 Mar 2015)

Profpointy said:


> Morris Marina convertible one might say


Marina TC was quicker than an MG


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## Profpointy (10 Mar 2015)

GrumpyGregry said:


> Marina TC was quicker than an MG



I'd not want either - but wouldn't mind an Oxford - especially in Wolsey / Riley garb


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## raleighnut (10 Mar 2015)

Profpointy said:


> I guess I should have said "Morris Oxford convertible" but was afraid of losing my younger readers. I quite like those Farina barges - especially in Wolsey or Rilley trim. And I could certainly imagine myself driving (or being driven in) a Princess R which would be a fine carriage indeed


It was a very powerful car for the time, Dad only drove it slowly but when my Uncle Jack had it the thing flew, more than a match for any Jag of the era although it did wallow a bit. The downside was it used vast quantities of petrol (5 Star) and a wry comment of the time was "its not got a carburetter , its got its own personal Arab with a big bucket chucking it in" but this was pre 73.
As for the interior it was opulent to say the least, grey leather seats, Wilton carpets and Walnut dashboard and door cappings with pull down tables built into the rear of the front seats and a separate heater for the rear seat passengers (electric?)


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## GrumpyGregry (10 Mar 2015)

Profpointy said:


> I'd not want either - but wouldn't mind an Oxford - especially in Wolsey / Riley garb


Rover P5B Coupe. You know you want to.


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## Profpointy (10 Mar 2015)

GrumpyGregry said:


> Rover P5B Coupe. You know you want to.


P4 for me I think. Auto only would rule out the P5B


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## Gravity Aided (11 Mar 2015)

I'd rather take my chances on the Buick engine.


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## Ootini (11 Mar 2015)

raleighnut said:


> Actually the lump is earlier than the Marina  they were not making them in the early 60s when the MGB was launched. I think the lump came from the Morris Oxford/Austin Cambridge the 'Farina' bodyshell as it was known (my Uncle sold Dad a similar car, the Vandem Plas Princess but that had a 4 litre Rolls Royce engine, 15MPG on a run, about 6 round villages/town )


Mine was a 73 rubber bumber jobbie, it was also the GT hardtop. Horrible.


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## raleighnut (11 Mar 2015)

Ootini said:


> Mine was a 73 rubber bumber jobbie, it was also the GT hardtop. Horrible.


The one they'd lifted up so the lights were legal (in the states?) past its 'sell by' date by then although if you lowered them back down they didn't look too bad but the hardtop. 
At least you could fit a rack to the back of the roadster for when you went CAMPING.


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## Gravity Aided (11 Mar 2015)

Pontiac Aztek, best car I ever had for CAMPING, had a tent which attached to the back, seats folded down to make a bed. I hear BICYCLES are good for CAMPING as well, as it's all I've got since Mrs.GA blew the engine on the Aztek. I find the bicycle is more adaptable and a great source of conversation at the campground. 
'You rode that how far?"
"You're from WHERE?!!"
"Your tent is less than 5 pounds?"
"Izzat a stove? Look at all the tiny kitchen stuff!"


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## Ootini (28 Apr 2015)

FYI I've updated the blog a bit, in case anyone is interested. https://bikepackingonabudget.wordpress.com/2015/04/28/test-fit/


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## raleighnut (28 Apr 2015)

Will the panniers not move forward on the rack a touch, I know heelstrike can be a problem but they do seem to be well back.


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## Ootini (28 Apr 2015)

raleighnut said:


> Will the panniers not move forward on the rack a touch, I know heelstrike can be a problem but they do seem to be well back.


Not a bad point, I was concerned about heel strike as I have size 13 feet so there as far back as they can go. Think Krusty the Klown. I'll see if I can measure just how far forwards I can push them. Ta


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## Ootini (29 Apr 2015)

I've added some info on the cheap and nasty tent I've bought, that hopefully isn't as nasty as it was cheap! https://bikepackingonabudget.wordpress.com/2015/04/29/the-tent-pt-1/


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