# Active Neighbourhoods



## fossyant (14 Oct 2021)

What's your views on these ?

I can see the benefits where it's correctly planned out but....

Went to visit my brother last night to drop a present off for his birthday. I ended up abandoning the car outside someone's house a street away. U-turned twice to find a way to his house, no chance. 

Poor sod's only just moved into this house, nothing showed up on plans/searches, then poof, and the surrounding roads have all been blocked off with concrete lumps (the stuff you see on motorways). The two possible ways I could get to his house were blocked. The only other way was to drive half a mile into a village centre then to come back from the other side. The scheme has made their road a rat run now from the estate. I can't see the problem, as there are large speed bumps that can't be taken quickly. In the 5 minutes I was there saw a number of cars having to u-turn in tight places, and I believe even the ambulance crews have issues.

Apparently this scheme cost £300k, and looks a right mess. Now I believe the local cycling advocate (aka a nobber) thinks it's brilliant. As a cyclist, I'd happily tell him nobody uses those routes they have blocked off for commuting - the main road is actually wide and OK and more direct.

Total waste of £300k. I've still not a clue how to get to his house though !


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## matticus (14 Oct 2021)

Without you showing us a map, we can only guess.

But in general, very well planned LTNs receive a bunch of whingeing - just like what you've posted - from drivers. In some cases, drivers 1,000 miles away sign the petitions against them. The criticisms rarely turn out to be true:
" _I *believe *even the ambulance crews have issues._ " yeah, ok. Drivers complain about this in most LTNs. In reality, the emergency services say that they don't have problems; in some cases they _benefit _from reduced congestion (remember, they don't just drive 0.5miles to each emergency!), and their data shows that most delays are due to illegal parking and congestion.

So, as you asked, THAT is my view on LTNs


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## theclaud (14 Oct 2021)

It's difficult to judge, without pictures or plans, whether the design is actually bad, or whether your post is just another example of a driver being irritated at not being able to drive and park wherever he wants.


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## theclaud (14 Oct 2021)

Ooops. TMN to Matticus!


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## matticus (14 Oct 2021)

theclaud said:


> Ooops. TMN to Matticus!


You are forgiven.


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## fossyant (14 Oct 2021)

So long as his neighbours don't object to me parking outside their house on the next street, all is fine. I'll walk the 300 yards rather than drive an extra mile !


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## Drago (14 Oct 2021)

I don't think anyone who owns a car is in a position to morally complain.


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## matticus (14 Oct 2021)

fossyant said:


> So long as his neighbours don't object to me parking outside their house on the next street, all is fine. I'll walk the 300 yards rather than drive an extra mile !


Good news - win-win!


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## annedonnelly (14 Oct 2021)

Wish we had one here to stop the traffic jams at school pick-up & drop-off times. Though it would spoil the fun of watching the idiots facing each other with nowhere to go


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## ClichéGuevara (14 Oct 2021)

One of a number of problems in the design of these things relates to the short sighted nature of those initiating them, as they rarely take account of the consequences created by drivers circulating to other routes.

This is compounded as there is rarely a joined up, strategic approach encouraging and facilitating other modes of transport in a meaningful way, and that includes a lack of wider community education and engagement.

Too often it's just a diktat supported by evangelistic preaching.


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## Drago (14 Oct 2021)

ClichéGuevara said:


> Too often it's just a diktat supported by evangelistic preaching.


Im afraid thats what it takes. No matter how juicy the incentive, or how lame the excuses about alternative means of transport, the lazy-ass majority still wont ditch the cars.

If they _want_ tomdomit they will. Most don't want to, so have to be forced into measures like this. The great British public have only themselves to vlame.


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## ClichéGuevara (14 Oct 2021)

Drago said:


> Im afraid thats what it takes. No matter how juicy the incentive, or how lame the excuses about alternative means of transport, the lazy-ass majority still wont ditch the cars.
> 
> If they _want_ tomdomit they will. Most don't want to, so have to be forced into measures like this. The great British public have only themselves to vlame.



The history of successful projects disagree with you.


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## matticus (14 Oct 2021)

ClichéGuevara said:


> This is compounded as there is rarely a joined up, strategic approach encouraging and facilitating other modes of transport in a meaningful way


The main aim is to encourage cycling and walking - I've yet to see one that fails in that. What do you want, JetPack lanes?


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## ClichéGuevara (14 Oct 2021)

matticus said:


> The main aim is to encourage cycling and walking - I've yet to see one that fails in that. What do you want, JetPack lanes?



I've seen several schemes first hand that have not only failed to do that, they've decreased them in some areas.


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## matticus (14 Oct 2021)

ClichéGuevara said:


> One of a number of problems in the design of these things relates to the short sighted nature of those initiating them, as they rarely take account of the consequences created by drivers circulating to other routes.


Do you have an example? I haven't seen this to be the case. There are usually planners involved, and there is plenty of real-world experience of this stuff gained in other western countries to base plans on.
But perhaps you disagree; in which case note that these things are almost always TRIALS. No-one is ripping up your favourite road.
(This is why you see so many decorative planters instead of concrete - which many idiots then choose to vandalise, often with engine oil, or just shove out of the way with their SUVs. Perhaps concrete backed up by diktat would work better ... )


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## fossyant (14 Oct 2021)

matticus said:


> The main aim is to encourage cycling and walking - I've yet to see one that fails in that. What do you want, JetPack lanes?



Yes please !!


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## ClichéGuevara (14 Oct 2021)

matticus said:


> Do you have an example? I haven't seen this to be the case. There are usually planners involved, and there is plenty of real-world experience of this stuff gained in other western countries to base plans on.
> But perhaps you disagree; in which case note that these things are almost always TRIALS. No-one is ripping up your favourite road.
> (This is why you see so many decorative planters instead of concrete - which many idiots then choose to vandalise, often with engine oil, or just shove out of the way with their SUVs. Perhaps concrete backed up by diktat would work better ... )



There are several local examples going back over a number of years. 'Planners' is a broad term, and they differ in remit and ability depending which area they are working in. What's lacking are decent strategic planners at a national level, as well as a local level, and they need to engage with experts in other areas of study too, as these things work better when they're not just done in isolation.

Preaching has been shown time and again to be a poor method, and should always be accompanied by clear explanations and community involvement.


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## matticus (14 Oct 2021)

ClichéGuevara said:


> The history of successful projects disagree with you.


The history of traffic reduction projects supports it. Drivers don't want to change, but many appreciate the changes after they sink in, and everyone that DIDNT drive (or wanted to avoid driving) laps it up.


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## ClichéGuevara (14 Oct 2021)

matticus said:


> The history of traffic reduction projects supports it. Drivers don't want to change, but many appreciate the changes after they sink in, and everyone that DIDNT drive (or wanted to avoid driving) laps it up.



You're clearly set in your opinion, so I'll leave you to it. I just offered my view from a lot of experience. I'll leave it to you to take it as you wish.


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## matticus (14 Oct 2021)

ClichéGuevara said:


> What's lacking are decent strategic planners at a national level, as well as a local level.


This is just waffle. What do you want - the people of Manchester to discuss LTNs in Exeter, in case some sort of cosmic balance is upset??


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## ClichéGuevara (14 Oct 2021)

matticus said:


> This is just waffle. What do you want - the people of Manchester to discuss LTNs in Exeter, in case some sort of cosmic balance is upset??



No.


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## fossyant (14 Oct 2021)

I have a map at last of the 'scheme'.

My line of travel was on Manchester Road (roughly where No1 is). Turned off the main road at Halesden Road and got stuck at Number 3). My Brother is on Brookfold Road just right of the No3.

I then turned round to try and go via the road that runs parallel but was stopped at No2, couldn't go back to main road as No1 is one way, nor down towards Broadstone Road as No5 stops that.

In future, I'll have to either carry on down Manchester Road and turn right at a busy junction onto Broadstone Road, or head into Reddish, and cut through to the west of this map (Broadstone Hall Road).

Main commuting routes for cyclists are actually Manchester Road and maybe Broadstone Road.


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## matticus (14 Oct 2021)

This thread isn't directly relevant, but it _is_ very funny in places:

View: https://twitter.com/theeyecollector/status/1448177948570357767?t=OUhNautNBtb6rx_qLYvzzA&s=19


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## Ming the Merciless (14 Oct 2021)

fossyant said:


> I have a map at last of the 'scheme'.
> 
> My line of travel was on Manchester Road (roughly where No1 is). Turned off the main road at Halesden Road and got stuck at Number 3). My Brother is on Brookfold Road just right of the No3.
> 
> ...



Only reason you had a problem is that your sat nav failed to take you the right way. If it encouraged you to walk some of the journey then that is good.


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## mjr (14 Oct 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Only reason you had a problem is that your sat nav failed to take you the right way.


That, and his brother thought it funny not to warn him about the closures. I suspect one of mine would!


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## mjr (14 Oct 2021)

ClichéGuevara said:


> There are several local examples going back over a number of years.


Which are called...?


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## presta (15 Oct 2021)

Most new residential streets are built as cul-de-sacs, I don't see why most older ones can't be converted.
The neighbourhood where I live has grown in three stages:
*1:* pre 1960, all through-roads
*2:* ~1970, one arterial through-road with cul-de-sacs sprouting off it
*3:* ~2000, the whole lot is one big cul-de-sac
Fortunately the area is alongside one main road rather than bridging a gap between two or more main roads, so it doesn't really provide an opportunity for rat running.


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## boydj (15 Oct 2021)

No house in a LTN will be inaccessible by car, so there will be a roundabout route to the house you want to visit - you just need to learn that.

The key advantage of these LTNs is to prevent speeding, rat-running drivers cutting through a neighbourhood, as well as encouraging people within that neighbourhood to use active travel for short journeys.


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## Arrowfoot (15 Oct 2021)

fossyant said:


> I have a map at last of the 'scheme'.
> 
> My line of travel was on Manchester Road (roughly where No1 is). Turned off the main road at Halesden Road and got stuck at Number 3). My Brother is on Brookfold Road just right of the No3.
> 
> ...


Wow, now I appreciate the issue.

It has become a maze. You need local knowledge to begin with for any first attempt. To honest I cannot imagine emergency responders finding their way on the first or even the second try if they enter point 1. And GPS will not help.

Clearly it will be quiet for the residents but visitors, delivery and trade drivers will have a challenge.

At the end of the day, its their neighbourhood and if they are prepared to live with it I am not sure what we can do. Personally I don't think it shows any form of professional planning, just residents inputs.


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## united4ever (15 Oct 2021)

About them not coming up in the searches when he bought the house. I believe they are experimental traffic orders so do not require traffic order with consultation. At the end of the experimental period they can make a permanent traffic order.

The ones in Levenshulme have been made permanent with only minor changes. This makes you think that others in Manchester will also become permanent.


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## matticus (16 Oct 2021)

Arrowfoot said:


> Clearly it will be quiet for the residents but visitors, delivery and trade drivers will have a challenge.


No more of a problem than in 90% of modern estates. People find their way around. The only dangerous roads round here are the arteries (which fortunately don't have houses on them)


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## Arrowfoot (16 Oct 2021)

matticus said:


> No more of a problem than in 90% of modern estates. People find their way around. The only dangerous roads round here are the arteries (which fortunately don't have houses on them)


No issues if there are no emergencies.

Roads and streets in the neighbourhood were originally designed to navigate intuitively. So there is a disconnect when you superimpose something like this and it becomes a round peg in a square hole. GPS won't help an ambulance or a fire truck.

I am sure home buyers will discount a house that is harder to reach by vehicle to a house in the same neighbourhood with better access.


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## DRM (16 Oct 2021)

This is all well and and good until either an ambulance or fire appliance can’t get through and some poor soul loses their life, as for parking, it just moves it from one area to another, making it someone else’s problem, exactly as happened in Nottingham, parking at work was banned, so all the outlying areas became a car park, where people then caught the bus, places like West Bridgford where my daughters student accommodation was drove the residents nuts having driveways blocked and loss of access when they got home, why don’t they put more buses on, make them cheaper and get people to use them because it’s cheaper than taking a car? Round here the buses don’t even go to the industrial estates, it was that bad on junction 41 industrial estate in Wakefield that cars were preventing HGV’s getting through to deliver/ collect when one unit was taken over, the culprits.....West Yorkshire Police


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## sheddy (16 Oct 2021)

Providing eCargo bikes and mobility scooters can go directly, there shouldn’t be a problem.


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## mjr (16 Oct 2021)

Arrowfoot said:


> Roads and streets in the neighbourhood were originally designed to navigate intuitively.


It used to be that they grew organically. Now it is that they are placed to get the most houses in the development. So I think they never prioritised intuitive navigation except for a few model towns like Milton Keynes and the navigation there basically stops when you enter a grid square.



> So there is a disconnect when you superimpose something like this and it becomes a round peg in a square hole. GPS won't help an ambulance or a fire truck.


Why not? Do the sirens block satellite signals?



> I am sure home buyers will discount a house that is harder to reach by vehicle to a house in the same neighbourhood with better access.


Really? I expect they'll prefer the ones deeper into the neighbourhood with less passing traffic.


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## classic33 (16 Oct 2021)

mjr said:


> It used to be that they grew organically. Now it is that they are placed to get the most houses in the development. So I think they never prioritised intuitive navigation except for a few model towns like Milton Keynes and the navigation there basically stops when you enter a grid square.





> Why not? Do the sirens block satellite signals?


No, in the same way that open car windows don't block GPS signals, but the drivers and crews still have to find a way through. 



> Really? I expect they'll prefer the ones deeper into the neighbourhood with less passing traffic.


It'd only take one incident before people deeper in the neighbourhood, with less traffic, started to rethink their situation. Especially if they were involved.


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## mjr (16 Oct 2021)

classic33 said:


> It'd only take one incident before people deeper in the neighbourhood, with less traffic, started to rethink their situation. Especially if they were involved.


Why? The emergency vehicle will probably reach them more quickly due to the lower traffic levels and some of the barriers being passable by some emergency vehicles.

That is probably why most ambulance trusts back them and health charities have paid for some https://www.forbes.com/sites/carlto...hoods-not-delaying-ambulances-say-nhs-trusts/


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## classic33 (17 Oct 2021)

mjr said:


> Why? The emergency vehicle will probably reach them more quickly due to the lower traffic levels and some of the barriers being passable by some emergency vehicles.
> 
> That is probably why most ambulance trusts back them and health charities have paid for some https://www.forbes.com/sites/carlto...hoods-not-delaying-ambulances-say-nhs-trusts/


Where do the vehicles that would usually park up within such an area, park up once the barriers are in place? The quieter, traffic free streets, come at a price. A notorious estate* built with such a system in place, was easier demolish than rectify the problem. Emergency vehicles had problems getting to some of the addresses.

You've also to bear in mind that such crews are not always local anymore.

*It became notorious for vehicle access problems, even with up to date street maps.


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## Arrowfoot (17 Oct 2021)

mjr said:


> It used to be that they grew organically. Now it is that they are placed to get the most houses in the development. So I think they never prioritised intuitive navigation except for a few model towns like Milton Keynes and the navigation there basically stops when you enter a grid square.
> 
> 
> Why not? Do the sirens block satellite signals?
> ...



Responders will be delayed as GPS would not work. Try it in an active neighbourhood. What has siren's got do with anything?

Houses in deeper neighbourhoods, cul de sac and end of the road terrace and houses always carry a higher value because of less traffic. Thats a given. But the road access is not impacted unlike active neighbourhood. I hope you can tell the difference. 

Once an potential buyer does an inspection they will realise access maybe an issue. Home owners after work are looking to reach their home faster and conveniently and would not prefer a maze drive. If i can get a *quieter home without the maze*, I will buy it over a maze house.


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## Oldhippy (17 Oct 2021)

Bike nation by Peter Walker.


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## matticus (17 Oct 2021)

Arrowfoot said:


> If i can get a *quieter home without the maze*, I will buy it over a maze house.


Is this sort of phrase something you've often seen in Estate Agent blurbs?


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## DRM (17 Oct 2021)

classic33 said:


> Where do the vehicles that would usually park up within such an area, park up once the barriers are in place? The quieter, traffic free streets, come at a price. A notorious estate* built with such a system in place, was easier demolish than rectify the problem. Emergency vehicles had problems getting to some of the addresses.
> 
> You've also to bear in mind that such crews are not always local anymore.
> 
> *It became notorious for vehicle access problems, even with up to date street maps.


You get a lot of this in Bradford, residential streets with terraced houses that have been blocked with bollards and deep kerbs that prevent anything getting through, yet the sat nav still tries to send you along the street as it doesn’t know it’s blocked, all done because of the idiotic driving that goes on as showcased on the police interceptor series, as you say many police officers, fire & ambulance crews don’t live there anymore and commute in themselves


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## mjr (17 Oct 2021)

classic33 said:


> Where do the vehicles that would usually park up within such an area, park up once the barriers are in place?


Where they used to, pretty much. The barriers take up less than a space each.



> The quieter, traffic free streets, come at a price. A notorious estate* built with such a system in place, was easier demolish than rectify the problem. Emergency vehicles had problems getting to some of the addresses.
> 
> You've also to bear in mind that such crews are not always local anymore.
> 
> *It became notorious for vehicle access problems, even with up to date street maps.


Some of the estates built with no through routes are far worse than Active Neighbourhoods, with not only emergency vehicles unable to pass through, but also walkers and cyclists. Ironically, one of the loudest voices against filtered through routes in planning applications has been the Police, who seem to think burglars are carrying 50" tellys away by bike.


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## mjr (17 Oct 2021)

Arrowfoot said:


> Responders will be delayed as GPS would not work. Try it in an active neighbourhood. What has siren's got do with anything?


Sirens was just me trying to guess why GPS wouldn't work for emergency vehicles. I have tried it in active neighbourhoods. It works fine, as long as your map is current. Why wouldn't it?



> Once an potential buyer does an inspection they will realise access maybe an issue. Home owners after work are looking to reach their home faster and conveniently and would not prefer a maze drive. If i can get a *quieter home without the maze*, I will buy it over a maze house.


If you think the map posted above is a maze, you must have visited some shoot mazes!


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## Ming the Merciless (17 Oct 2021)

Arrowfoot said:


> Responders will be delayed as GPS would not work. Try it in an active neighbourhood. What has siren's got do with anything?



A bit like any road that has changed in the last 20 years then.


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## classic33 (17 Oct 2021)

mjr said:


> Where they used to, pretty much. The barriers take up less than a space each.


If the choice is a slightly longer drive around the streets, then you'll find that people will just park as close as possible to their house. 


> *
> Some of the estates built with no through routes are far worse than Active Neighbourhoods, *with not only emergency vehicles unable to pass through, but also walkers and cyclists. Ironically, one of the loudest voices against filtered through routes in planning applications has been the Police, who seem to think burglars are carrying 50" tellys away by bike.


Not the same thing though. And certainly not an accurate description to what the thread is about, active neighborhoods.


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## mjr (17 Oct 2021)

classic33 said:


> Not the same thing though. And certainly not an accurate description to what the thread is about, active neighborhoods.


What notorious estate was built with point closures in place but was easier to demolish than move the closure points?


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## Oldhippy (17 Oct 2021)

As always with sustainable development and transport there is no political will, until there is it will continue to be half ar*ed attempts with little gained.


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## classic33 (17 Oct 2021)

mjr said:


> What notorious estate was built with point closures in place but was easier to demolish than move the closure points?


It was one local to me.
As vehicle ownership increased, access became harder. The estate became notorious for this/due to this.


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## boydj (17 Oct 2021)

One of the main reasons that cycling is so popular in Holland is that they started turning neighbourhoods into LTNs many years ago. These will typically have a perimeter road and only two or three ways into the neighbourhood for cars, while being much more permeable for walking and cycling. This design makes short journeys by car less attractive and successfully encourages active travel for these journeys.

For a LTN to be successful in car-worshipping UK there is a need for a good selling job and education for the inhabitants to see the advantages.


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## mjr (29 Oct 2021)

boydj said:


> For a LTN to be successful in car-worshipping UK there is a need for a good selling job and education for the inhabitants to see the advantages.


The selling job continues in Gear Change: One Year On, in a chapter called "Low traffic neighbourhoods: the evidence so far". Best to skip past the Foreword IMO, but it does show there is political will to make more of these neighbourhoods.


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## All uphill (29 Oct 2021)

boydj said:


> One of the main reasons that cycling is so popular in Holland is that they started turning neighbourhoods into LTNs many years ago. These will typically have a perimeter road and only two or three ways into the neighbourhood for cars, while being much more permeable for walking and cycling. This design makes short journeys by car less attractive and successfully encourages active travel for these journeys.
> 
> For a LTN to be successful in car-worshipping UK there is a need for a good selling job and education for the inhabitants to see the advantages.


I was living in a city there at the time and saw/heard the screams of outrage when this happened. It was a difficult change for many people and required strong and persistent political leadership.


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## boydj (29 Oct 2021)

All uphill said:


> I was living in a city there at the time and saw/heard the screams of outrage when this happened. It was a difficult change for many people and required strong and persistent political leadership.



All true - but ask them if they want to change back and the answer is an almost unanimous 'No!'.

Recent pictures from Paris show what can be achieved - it's become a cycling city since the start of the pandemic, a far cry from the traffic-choked city of just a couple of years ago.


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## ClichéGuevara (29 Oct 2021)

boydj said:


> All true - but ask them if they want to change back and the answer is an almost unanimous 'No!'.
> 
> Recent pictures from Paris show what can be achieved - it's become a cycling city since the start of the pandemic, a far cry from the traffic-choked city of just a couple of years ago.



Paris has had a pro cycling Mayor for many years. It's hardly something that has only happened because of the pandemic.


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## boydj (29 Oct 2021)

ClichéGuevara said:


> Paris has had a pro cycling Mayor for many years. It's hardly something that has only happened because of the pandemic.



True, the groundwork had already been laid. The pandemic was the catalyst to finish the process.


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## Boopop (31 Oct 2021)

I wonder if, much like the media at large and indeed government both local and national, @fossyant asked on here a decade ago how people would feel about the residential streets they live on being used as rat runs as the number of drivers increased. I'm guessing not. As ever, measures to increase the number of people driving get a free pass, whereas any measure to reduce it is subjected to the Spanish Inquisition.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/25/rat-running-residential-uk-streets-satnav-apps


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## fossyant (31 Oct 2021)

Boopop said:


> I wonder if, much like the media at large and indeed government both local and national, @fossyant asked on here a decade ago how people would feel about the residential streets they live on being used as rat runs as the number of drivers increased. I'm guessing not. As ever, measures to increase the number of people driving get a free pass, whereas any measure to reduce it is subjected to the Spanish Inquisition.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/25/rat-running-residential-uk-streets-satnav-apps



We've actually got an issue at the bottom of our road with folk using a residential street to cut out traffic. One of the main traffic lights has had the priority changed which means a big tail back at rush hour. To avoid this drivers are using a nearby residential street to try and avoid the tail back. Unfortunately far too many are doing this resulting in gridlock. I can only get in and out of our road in one direction when this happens every evening. So glad I'm cycling to work to bypass this madness


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## Boopop (31 Oct 2021)

fossyant said:


> We've actually got an issue at the bottom of our road with folk using a residential street to cut out traffic. One of the main traffic lights has had the priority changed which means a big tail back at rush hour. To avoid this drivers are using a nearby residential street to try and avoid the tail back. Unfortunately far too many are doing this resulting in gridlock. I can only get in and out of our road in one direction when this happens every evening. So glad I'm cycling to work to bypass this madness



I do wonder how the people who advocate for more roads to be built to reduce congestion (ignoring the theory of induced demand) would like it if their house was bulldozed to make way for more roads. It's not like it hasn't happened before, usually to the detriment of ethnic minorities and poorer communities in general.

The only logical way to reduce congestion is to make driving less convenient (while making other modes inc. public transport moreso), to get people out of their cars for very short journeys. There's a startling amount of journeys under two miles that are carried out by motor vehicle.
*Figure 1: Percentage of journeys by trip length and main mode, England, 2017*




* Table 1: Journeys, by length as a percentage of all journeys, 2017 *





Source


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## FishFright (31 Oct 2021)

mjr said:


> That, and his brother thought it funny not to warn him about the closures. I suspect one of mine would!



Maybe it's his brother installing the concrete blocks ?


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## stoatsngroats (31 Oct 2021)

I was of the opinion that emergency services were aware of traffic orders, and would,know access ability and restriction before any event requiring their attendance.
With blues and twos, their rate of access wouldn’t likely be hindered much diverting around ‘the blocks’ to the correct location on the 1st occasion. (I.e. not driving along one road, only to find it was blocked and further progress impossible).
I believe they walk the LTN to assure themselves that access was sufficient for all properties.


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## ebikeerwidnes (31 Oct 2021)

stoatsngroats said:


> I was of the opinion that emergency services were aware of traffic orders, and would,know access ability and restriction before any event requiring their attendance.
> With blues and twos, their rate of access wouldn’t likely be hindered much diverting around ‘the blocks’ to the correct location on the 1st occasion. (I.e. not driving along one road, only to find it was blocked and further progress impossible).
> I believe they walk the LTN to assure themselves that access was sufficient for all properties.


Some time last year there was a programme on the telly where an ambulance was trying to get to an emergency
There was a change to the area - possibly an LTN or one of those pop up cycle lanes

teh controllers were fully aware and directed the crew around to the new route
so they do have up-to-date information about changes - and road works etc

This,of course, presumes that everyone is properly organised and does all the admin - which may be a stretch at times!!!

On a more historic note, a friend from school moved to Sheffield after he left University - that would be about 1981. At the time I think they had a very left wing council - lots of 'interesting' article in the Daily Mail about them!
Anyway, he came home one weekend to see his Mum and we went out for a drink. According to him the council had closed all routes from the ring road into the city except one - the others were open only to buses (maybe taxis - dunno).
They also set up a series of car parks with frequent bus services into the city centre - running from very early to very late.
It causes a storm of protest - but he said that he found it wonderful - just drive to the nearest car park, park and in 1 few minutes a bus arrives. And it was a nice bus - not some grotty think with plastic seats and a ride quality that F1 would think was a bit harsh!
The bus took him into the centre and dropped him near work.
Even if he was stuck on the office late - the buses were still running


Naturally they got voted out and it was all dismantled - at which point the roads went back to the nice familiar gridlock with everyone sitting in their boxes burning petrol.

Anyway - the point is (finally!!!) well planned changes can work very well - not all are well planned - some you wonder if the word 'planed' was in any part of the process.
Certainly the pop-up cycle lanes round here (when the government offered to lob money at areas that make some) were rather weird and totally useless!!
Which is weird because the actualy cycle lanes are often quite good!!


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## sheddy (29 Dec 2021)

Some useful phrases here
https://medium.com/@karen.liebreich/the-othering-of-cyclists-20f1031aedd


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## fossyant (29 Dec 2021)

Just to say most of the road blocks have gone off my brother's estate as the layout wasn't sensible.


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## mjr (30 Dec 2021)

fossyant said:


> Just to say most of the road blocks have gone off my brother's estate as the layout wasn't sensible.


So do they plan to try again with a sensible layout, or are they heading for a slap from Shapps?


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## CreakyGran (18 Jan 2022)

Why on earth would someone object to you parking in a road round the corner? Here is the news: car owners do NOT own the bit of road outside their house.
And I'm livid the Birchington Margste cycle path scheme has been ditched. Of COURSE to thirds of responders to ghe consultation objected. They are all car buncles. Has snyone consulted the kids from the several schools along the route? I have. They are always surprised someone wants to know eat they think, believing I'm stopping them to complain about them riding on the pavements (the only safe way given the ferocity of the petrolheads' driving. (I do drive by the way).


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## fossyant (18 Jan 2022)

CreakyGran said:


> Why on earth would someone object to you parking in a road round the corner? Here is the news: car owners do NOT own the bit of road outside their house.
> And I'm livid the Birchington Margste cycle path scheme has been ditched. Of COURSE to thirds of responders to ghe consultation objected. They are all car buncles. Has snyone consulted the kids from the several schools along the route? I have. They are always surprised someone wants to know eat they think, believing I'm stopping them to complain about them riding on the pavements (the only safe way given the ferocity of the petrolheads' driving. (I do drive by the way).



New member alert - hello.

There are many people who think they own the road outside their homes, sadly. Take any terraced street and the parking 'issues'.


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## KnittyNorah (18 Jan 2022)

CreakyGran said:


> They are all car buncles.


LOVE IT - will use it myself! Welcome @CreakyGran!


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