# Does anyone know this cyclist?



## magnatom (18 Sep 2007)

I'll let the video speak for itself.



Previously people have questioned posting videos where people are recognisable. However, as he replied 'fantastic' to me mentioning that the video would be on youtube, I class that as permission. 

Feel free to leave comments on youtube (for or against this guy). There is a chance he might see it.

He's a cyclist, don't you know.....


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## Twenty Inch (18 Sep 2007)

He isn't a cyclist's sweaty toerag.

Police. Today. Get them to have a word.


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## magnatom (18 Sep 2007)

Actually there were other reasons for me being where I was on the road, but I didn't have the time or inclination to describe them to him. There is a sunken manhole cover that I was avoiding (the other cyclists went to the left of it, I went to the right. It was a pinch point. Cars parked ahead. I always take primary when leaving a roundabout, until I am a safe distance away. Drivers often do silly things at roundabout exits (this is an example). 

Most importantly I have every right to chose where I position myself on the road and he, being in a car behind me has to act responsibly and deal with it. 

Not sure about the police though. Is it really worth it?


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## domtyler (18 Sep 2007)

Well he didn't actually make contact so why go to all that bother? Or were you performing for the camera? If you are that bothered then you should have claimed your lane to prevent such manoeuvres.


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## BentMikey (18 Sep 2007)

Far too minor to worry about the police. IMO the driver is a muppet though.


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## Twenty Inch (18 Sep 2007)

Disagree

Dangerous driving, unrepentant attitude. Good community policing to have a word.


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## magnatom (18 Sep 2007)

domtyler said:


> Well he didn't actually make contact so why go to all that bother? Or were you performing for the camera? If you are that bothered then you should have claimed your lane to prevent such manoeuvres.



I don't perform for the camera! Thats just who I am. I don't like bullies, especially when they are using a car to bully me. 

I was claiming the lane. It is quite a wide lane at this point, and if I am on my own there is generally enough room for a car to pass. However, as I was passing another cyclists I took a primary road position. If you look at the clip, he does get close to me, but he is still forced to cross the white line. If had gone out any further, there was a chance that he would have undercut me, putting myself and the other cyclist at risk.

It never crossed my mind to go to the police. It was Twenty Inch that suggested it. I understand why he wants me to, but I agree that it was too minor.


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## magnatom (18 Sep 2007)

Twenty Inch said:


> Disagree
> 
> Dangerous driving, unrepentant attitude. Good community policing to have a word.



I see where you are coming from, but I really don't think it is serious enough. 

It would be good enough for me if this chap was to see himself on youtube. Then he might realise how much of a twat he was being. If something like this happens again (very likely ) then I will tell them to search for their registration on Youtube. They are more likely to find it then.


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## Twenty Inch (18 Sep 2007)

Might end up as a perverse incentive - people will be even bigger twats in the hope of getting on youtube.

A little while ago, there were speed indicator boards that would flash up your speed if you were over the limit. The idea being that people would go "Oh, that's a bit fast, I'd better slow down". Of course the opposite happened and people statrted to see how high they could go.


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## domtyler (18 Sep 2007)

Can't see a massive problem having watched again a few more times. You left him enough space and he used it, I would probably have done the same. As for taking this to the police? They would be more likely to lock you up for being so mouthy!


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## BentMikey (18 Sep 2007)

Having watched it a couple of more times, I think you left the door open for him. It still doesn't excuse his overtake, but to prevent that in future you'd have to block his progress through the roundabout exit earlier. I admit that's not easy with that particular road setup, but I think being further out 10 meters earlier would have sorted it.


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## magnatom (18 Sep 2007)

The problem with this roundabout is that cars will often take the lane closest to the roundabout for going straight on (the exit I took) when that lane is signed for right turn only. I think this is what this chap did. 

I may have left him room (although he did cross the white line) but he shouldn't have overtaken me when I was overtaking another cyclist surely?

Also the fact that he hit his horn and he said 'you were too far out' indicates that I was, at least to some extend blocking him.

Can we all agree that he was a twat?


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## magnatom (18 Sep 2007)

domtyler said:


> They would be more likely to lock you up for being so mouthy!



So what sentence am I looking at m'lord? 


I get the feeling Dom that your not the shy retiring type....


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## domtyler (18 Sep 2007)

Yes, I will definitely give you that, the guy was an utter %^&*(). The comment about being too far out warranted one of your tricky Kung Fu/Jacky Chan type moves if nothing else.


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## magnatom (18 Sep 2007)

Nah, it's judo I do. I suppose I could slip in a hadaka jime from the side.....


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## Nigeyy (18 Sep 2007)

Maybe I see it differently from some others who posted......

It looked to me like you were overtaking that cyclist, and you were well out into the road to do so, quite rightly. Mr-I'm-a-cyclist-driving-a-car-but-I'm-in-a-hurry-and-can't-wait-2.41-seconds then proceeds to overtake you and looks like he crossed the white line. 

My interpretation: his fault. Can't he have waited those few seconds to let you pass that other cyclist and for him to get a safe place to overtake you? Was it that big of a deal? Couldn't he see that other cyclist? That you were overtaking? And, if he is a cyclist, couldn't he extrapolate the fact there may have been a poor road surface which is why you were cycling in the position you were?

Lord, heaven forbid a cyclist slows a car driver down by n seconds. But I do agree with other comments about taking this to the police, I really can't see them doing anything about it, rightly or wrongly as the case may be.


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## BentMikey (18 Sep 2007)

Nah, don't take it that way dude. I'm pretty much completely with you, my point was only that you left the tiniest of suggestions of an opening, and the muppet took advantage. You didn't do anything wrong, but you might have been able to make a tiny improvement for next time.

I know what you mean about bad lane discipline, particularly on gyratories and roundabouts. Drivers here in London are terrible at it, no wonder with the lack of traffic policing.


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## bonj2 (18 Sep 2007)

I don't understand what he did wrong. As in most of your videos. It may have felt like he was too close to you at the time, but that doesn't come across well enough on a video.


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## bianco (18 Sep 2007)

I'm with bonj


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## joebe (18 Sep 2007)

I'm sorry, but I find it quite comical watching you frantically trying to signal for someone to pull over because they beeped you. And then to remonstate with them. If I did that every time someone passed close to me or beeped I'd never get to work. It's far easier to do it on the move.

I'm sure if you ditched the camera you'd be far less confrontational.


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## magnatom (18 Sep 2007)

bonj said:


> I don't understand what he did wrong. As in most of your videos. It may have felt like he was too close to you at the time, but that doesn't come across well enough on a video.




Ask yourself this question: how much space should you leave when overtaking a car? Is at least a metre reasonable?

How much space should you leave when overtaking a cyclist? Remember that a cyclist is more vulnerable, more likely to wobble, more likely to avoid pot holes etc. So lets say a metre at the very VERY least, probably more.

On this particular occasion I went to the right of the lowered manhole (and to the right of the poorly repaired surface surrounding it. I probably went about 20cm to the right of it at a guess. There is probably about 2 metres of road to my right before the white line, the clio is about 1.7m wide and crosses slightly over the white line, say 50cm. So by my reckoning about 80cm to my right. Too close, but yes not the worst by any means.
(Check out the car which I can touch in this video  aat about 1m20secs and tell me that wasn't too close and the JEM carpet van at the start!!)

However, he proceeded to toot his horn at me and wave his arms, so I followed to find out what his problem was. Turned out I was too far out on the road! 

My road positioning is my choice and he has no right to hit his horn to tell me to get out of his way. He is a cyclist, so he should know better!!

So Bonj, point out what other videos you have an issue with.


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## magnatom (18 Sep 2007)

joebe said:



> I'm sorry, but I find it quite comical watching you frantically trying to signal for someone to pull over because they beeped you. And then to remonstate with them. If I did that every time someone passed close to me or beeped I'd never get to work. It's far easier to do it on the move.
> 
> I'm sure if you ditched the camera you'd be far less confrontational.



Glad I entertain.

Of course I don't often do that and I often have cars who pass to close. However this chap passed too close, overtook when I was overtaking someone else, and hit his horn and waved his arms at me. So at the time I was annoyed. 

As I've said before, I hate bullies. Always have. This chap was bullying me so I thought I'd have a word. That is just who I am, and yes I am like that when I don't have the camera on. Makes no difference. My wife does growl at me a little (oo-er) when I make comments, point at mobile phone holding drivers etc when I am not on my bike so if you need proof that I do it just ask Mrs Magnatom (and no I don't play up just for the wife!!)


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## magnatom (18 Sep 2007)

> I'm Magnatom. You're on Youtube. Goodnight.



I have considered getting a card to hand out. I think you have just provided the wording...

If you get me, could you let me know, I haven't quite worked it out yet 

Let me try and explain for everyone why I post my videos. 

I post these videos as a sort of journal of the problems that a typical cyclist might face on the roads. In my ideal world everyone on the roads would give everyone else respect. That doesn't happen, and often (though certainly not always) cyclists are the victims. I want to do my bit (a very small bit) to share my experiences and to see if I can improve my own cycling experiences and with the help of others maybe improve the lot of cyclists in general.

For example from this video is an example of an impatient driver, who couldn't wait 15 seconds for a safe gap to overtake. Having a word with him provided an insight into what he thought I did wrong and what he thought I should do next time. It is important that we know what drivers think if we are to co-exist with them. Personally I learned that at this roundabout I should be more assertive under similar situations, i.e. to take a firmer line.

Now I will admit that these thoughts didn't go through my head at the time of the incident, but that is my reasoning for posting it on the web. Some may ridicule me, others may think I am a interfering twat (God forbid  ). However, in my own mixed up way I'm just trying to help.

Of course if people think that I do more harm than good I will go away and have a wee cry 


Actually, no I won't!!


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## BentMikey (18 Sep 2007)

That nethalus has just come on my scary bus overtake video and started commenting. Apparently I was showing road rage, and the bus driver did nothing wrong. LOL!


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## magnatom (18 Sep 2007)

Gotta rush off but I will have a look tomorrow! I'm looking forward to a wee comment!


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## magnatom (18 Sep 2007)

BentMikey said:


> That nethalus has just come on my scary bus overtake video and started commenting. Apparently I was showing road rage, and the bus driver did nothing wrong. LOL!



 Youv'e taken a lot of flak (all rubbish of course) with that video! I can't understand why. It was very clearly bad driving on the bus drivers part. What came of your complaint?


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## BentMikey (18 Sep 2007)

Yeah, I can't beleive the ignorance and/or bias in many of those responses. If any of you have youtube accounts and a bit of spare time, I'd appreciate your comments on the video and rating +/- on the comments already there.

Std bus company response otherwise, with the flyer that apparently the video didn't completely agree with my complaint. Frustrating, because they refused to tell me how or why. I'm hoping that they did actually interview the driver, because all I'm actually interested in is that he changes his behaviour towards cyclists and other vulnerable road users in future.


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## BentMikey (18 Sep 2007)




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## BentMikey (18 Sep 2007)

Sorry, I was browsing on my phone and couldn't work out how copy and paste the link.


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## Terminator (18 Sep 2007)

This is normal in London.Generally I try to keep well out of the way and rarely overtake if there is a car close behind as it is so unpredictable what they will do.There are zillions of slow cyclists or newbies so I tend to hang behind them.Doubt if I would have overtaken where you were if I was aware there was a car behind me.I dont trust the buggers.

They have no patience here.


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## vernon (18 Sep 2007)

Directed to the original poster just to remove any ambiguity.

I find it hard to believe that you hid behind cyclecraft when tackling the motorist yet display a video of yourself undertaking a lorry. If you want to use Cyclecraft as a weapon then live by its advice.....

Your video was quite entertaining. The motorist had the upper hand with the wit and repartee in my opinion.

Had I been the motorist I'd post links to all my friends and share the mirth around.

Yes I am a cyclist and a motorist but I don't go around making a tit out of myself with a helmet cam. Come to think of it I don't have a helmet or a cam.

A bit of a mountain fabricated from a bit of a molehill but it adds to the humour category of Youtube I suppose.


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## Terminator (18 Sep 2007)

I don't take cyclecraft as gospel.It isn't the bible.It's meant for hints and tips which can be useful but sometimes.Different situations require different methods.I would never quote it to a motorist and never have.

Would also be interesting to get some motorist views on here.

That bus overtake was normal generally if a bus overtakes me I generally expect him to pull in front of me and generally they don't disappoint.


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## BentMikey (18 Sep 2007)

I think the point is that we all make mistakes. The difference is that magnatom is willing to show his, accept criticism, and learn from them, as well as help others to improve via watching his videos of everyday cycling experience in the UK.

Since you don't want to "make a tit of yourself", I assume that means you know you also make mistakes, and don't want anyone else to know about them. I hope you have the self-honesty to recognise them and learn from them.


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## col (18 Sep 2007)

What im curious about,is why you overtook,on a busy roundabout exit,and then called a driver because he passed you?


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## Terminator (18 Sep 2007)

> Since you don't want to "make a tit of yourself", I assume that means you know you also make mistakes, and don't want anyone else to know about them. I hope you have the self-honesty to recognise them and learn from them.


If this is aimed at me then im sure I make a tit of myself quite often.I overtook a bus today in a race with three cyclists and was thinking afterwards and even at the time with the space available that it wasn't probably the best thing to do at the time.

Oooops sorry see what that applies to.


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## BentMikey (18 Sep 2007)

col said:


> What im curious about,is why you overtook,on a busy roundabout exit,and then called a driver because he passed you?



I think there was plenty of space for one overtake given that they were both cyclists, and probably quite safe to do so. I would imagine magnatom would have been quite happy with the car driver overtaking there if he had been in secondary without the other cyclist around, given that it's quite a wide roundabout exit. The problem comes when the muppet car driver overtakes magnatom with too little space, and magnatom is already overtaking someone else. That's not very good at all.

Terminator, oops, sorry not you, but Vernon!!! And I too make a tit of myself regularly.


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## Terminator (18 Sep 2007)

> I think there was plenty of space for one overtake given that they were both cyclists, and probably quite safe to do so.



You say probably but certain motorists make it dangerous to do so.


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## BentMikey (18 Sep 2007)

col said:


> What im curious about,is why you overtook,on a busy roundabout exit,and then called a driver because he passed you?





Terminator said:


> You say probably but certain motorists make it dangerous to do so.



I meant the initial overtake of the unknown cyclist by magnatom there, in response to Col's post above.


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## Alan Frame (18 Sep 2007)

magnatom said:


> Nah, it's judo I do. I suppose I could slip in a hadaka jime from the side.....



I would probably take issue with more people if I had your credentials.I don't, so I don't. I thought judo was for self defence, not offence ?


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## col (18 Sep 2007)

BentMikey said:


> I think there was plenty of space for one overtake given that they were both cyclists, and probably quite safe to do so. I would imagine magnatom would have been quite happy with the car driver overtaking there if he had been in secondary without the other cyclist around, given that it's quite a wide roundabout exit. The problem comes when the muppet car driver overtakes magnatom with too little space, and magnatom is already overtaking someone else. That's not very good at all.
> 
> Terminator, oops, sorry not you, but Vernon!!! And I too make a tit of myself regularly.




It looks like he swings out in front of the car as he is coming of the roundabout,overtaking the cyclist too early,in a dangerous place,then blames the car he cut up?


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## Rhythm Thief (19 Sep 2007)

I don't think I'd have overtaken a cyclist on a roundabout exit when being followed by faster heavier traffic. Allowing for things we can't see because of the limitations of the video, it did look to me like you pretty much pulled out into the path of the car, the driver of which then proceeded to honk at you. 
I notice someone claiming to be the driver has posted some comments on your video ... quite entertaining.


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## bonj2 (19 Sep 2007)

magnatom said:


> Ask yourself this question: how much space should you leave when overtaking a car? Is at least a metre reasonable?
> 
> How much space should you leave when overtaking a cyclist? Remember that a cyclist is more vulnerable, more likely to wobble, more likely to avoid pot holes etc. So lets say a metre at the very VERY least, probably more.
> 
> ...



I'm not saying the car didn't overtake too close, I'm just saying that if he did, you can't really tell that from the video - so it doesn't really make great entertainment, as it just looks like one minute you're cycling along, next minute a black clio comes into shot from stage right. Next minute you're pointing left in front of the camera - which incidentally I had no idea what that was for until another poster revealed it was to try and get the clio driver to pull over!
Which, come to think of it, is suspicious in itself: what car driver who doesn't respect cyclists enough to give them enough room when overtaking then _looks in his rear view mirror_ to see if he's offended them _and pulls over_ if he has?! Which is why I put it to you that this is actually your mate acting - at the _very least_ only having an argument with him for the benefit of the camera.



magnatom said:


> So Bonj, point out what other videos you have an issue with.



That one you posted up a video of a bit ago where a bus allegedly overtakes and tries to "bully you off the road" by pulling into a stop. Like I say, it could have been dangerous, but on the video, it just looks like a cyclist's view of the road, followed by a bus stop, and then a bus appears on the right, then you pull ahead of the bus, and then later on it you pull up next to it and, yep, you guessed it, have an argument with the driver.


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## magnatom (19 Sep 2007)

For the record. I was in the correct lane for going straight on at the roundabout. I was in the primary position in the lane and as I came off the roundabout I continued to claim the primary position. I didn't swing, but followed the primary position all the way around. The reason I did not expect this chap to appear was because behind me, he took the lane for a right turn (it is marked as such). He obviously took this lane with the intent of overtaking me, i,e, he had probably decided to do it before the roundabout and had therefore committed himself early. I had assumed that he was turning right. However, out of recognition that some drivers ignore this and that I was passing a slower cyclists, which there was plenty of room to do, I kept the primary position to discourage any overtaking, due to oncoming traffic. My mistake was that I did not go out far enough, not as the driver said, that I was out too far. He passed to close hit his horn and waved his arms at me, whilst doing a dangerous maneuver. Yes I have seen worse driving, but as I have said before, he was attempting to bully me.

As Bentmikey suggested I normally take the secondary position here, unless there are cars parked close to the roundabout exit. On this occasion they were further away, however, I took primary to give the other cyclist plenty of room as we should do when they are hugging the edge (suggests a novice cyclists, and in fact I have only seen this lady cycling recently).

I have suggested to this chap on youtube that I could provide him with my spare copy of cyclecraft. We will see if he accepts.


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## magnatom (19 Sep 2007)

BentMikey said:


> I think the point is that we all make mistakes. The difference is that magnatom is willing to show his, accept criticism, and learn from them, as well as help others to improve via watching his videos of everyday cycling experience in the UK.
> 
> Since you don't want to "make a tit of yourself", I assume that means you know you also make mistakes, and don't want anyone else to know about them. I hope you have the self-honesty to recognise them and learn from them.



Well said Bentmikey. I don't post these videos expecting glory and praise. Often I do get criticised. Thats great. If someone has a genuine criticism of my cycling please feel free to let me know. We all might learn something. For those that call me a tit etc, I am more than happy to meet, have a chat, and a beer (you'd be buying of course ) and then if at the end of that you still think I'm a tit then fair enough. Hopefully you'd change your mind. It can be hard via internet forums to work out how genuine someone is or not. Honestly I am!!

I'm just trying to make a difference, my own way. For those that call me a tit etc, in what way are you trying to make a difference?


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## magnatom (19 Sep 2007)

bonj said:


> Which, come to think of it, is suspicious in itself: what car driver who doesn't respect cyclists enough to give them enough room when overtaking then _looks in his rear view mirror_ to see if he's offended them _and pulls over_ if he has?! Which is why I put it to you that this is actually your mate acting - at the _very least_ only having an argument with him for the benefit of the camera.



Bonj, are you the type that believes in conspiracy theories?  The only connection I have with this guy is that at that point in time we were in the same bit of road.

Seriously how difficult would it be to set that up. Do you think I knew the other cyclist as well and that I had all the other traffic waiting for me to shout 'action' !!



> That one you posted up a video of a bit ago where a bus allegedly overtakes and tries to "bully you off the road" by pulling into a stop. Like I say, it could have been dangerous, but on the video, it just looks like a cyclist's view of the road, followed by a bus stop, and then a bus appears on the right, then you pull ahead of the bus, and then later on it you pull up next to it and, yep, you guessed it, have an argument with the driver.



We've talked about this one before on another thread. First Bus looked at their own video footage and agreed with me. The chap was retrained. If my chat with the driver is what you would call an argument, then you really don't want to be near me when I really have one!!


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## magnatom (19 Sep 2007)

Alan Frame said:


> I would probably take issue with more people if I had your credentials.I don't, so I don't. I thought judo was for self defence, not offence ?



I never have used judo outside the dojo. In fact I have only ever been involved in one fight in my life, at secondary school. A friend put chewing gum in my hair! Of course I won and we were friends again afterwards. So a good result


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## magnatom (19 Sep 2007)

vernon said:


> Directed to the original poster just to remove any ambiguity.
> 
> I find it hard to believe that you hid behind cyclecraft when tackling the motorist yet display a video of yourself undertaking a lorry. If you want to use Cyclecraft as a weapon then live by its advice.....
> 
> ...



Didn't hide, I was just trying to explain why I was, where I was in the road. I wasn't trying to be funny. Sorry. Next time I will insert a few jokes for you. I used cyclecraft as a reference, not as a weapon. Although, maybe that's a good idea. I could carry around a copy and hit people with it if they annoy me....

Yes I made a mistake. I admitted it. Are you perfect. I'm certainly not. 

As for posting it your friends. Fair enough. Your prerogative. Water off a ducks back.


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## bonj2 (19 Sep 2007)

magnatom said:


> Bonj, are you the type that believes in conspiracy theories?  The only connection I have with this guy is that at that point in time we were in the same bit of road.
> 
> Seriously how difficult would it be to set that up. Do you think I knew the other cyclist as well and that I had all the other traffic waiting for me to shout 'action' !!


The other cyclist could easily have just been coincidental - he wasn't essential to the 'storyline', he was just an extra. You could just as easily have justified 'claiming primary' without him.



magnatom said:


> We've talked about this one before on another thread. First Bus looked at their own video footage and agreed with me. The chap was retrained. If my chat with the driver is what you would call an argument, then you really don't want to be near me when I really have one!!



It sounds to me like an 'argument' is something you set out to achieve.


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## frog (19 Sep 2007)

If he's the cyclist he professes to be then he'd know Rule 139 (Overtaking) . . leave as much room when overtaking a cyclist as you would a car. and Rule 189 Motorcyclists and cyclists may suddenly need to avoid uneven road surfaces and obstacles such as draincovers or oily, wet or icy patches on the road. Give them plenty of room. 

In my view he's a f*&king liar and knows jack sh1t about cycling. His attitude to other road users is deplorable. If he'd spent as much effort driving around you carefully, as he's supposed to do, then he'd not have use for the horn.

The really deplorable thing is he actually believes he has the right to treat 'lesser' road users in this manner. I only hope he can see the connection when a bus cuts him up in his little piss-ant motorised shoe box.


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## Chris B (19 Sep 2007)

Not wanting to have a dig but you lot videoing your commutes seem to be in as much of a hurry with as little regard for safety and common sense as the car and bus drivers that you're critiscising. I struggled to see any great problem with either video - the first is a 50/50 where the rider pulls out to overtake on a roundabout exit as does the driver, the second is a normal overtake for a bus where I live, just accept that you need to cover your brakes in case. If you rode more defensively rather than aggressively you'd encounter far less conflict and might have a less stressful commute.


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## BentMikey (19 Sep 2007)

I dunno where you ride, but for me in central London that's a once in six months bad overtake experience, assuming you're referring to my video. There's no excuse for that sort of driving IMO.

Trying to suggest I should ride more defensively is a good idea, but isn't appropriate or applicable here because I was already doing that, which is why I prevented the bus driver from hitting me.


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## magnatom (19 Sep 2007)

Chris B,

Ridding in the primary road position is defensive, by definition!

I would like to point out that I must be doing something right. Although I have had incidents where cars/buses etc pull out squeeze me etc I have never had an incident where I felt that I was in danger of injury (except where I skidded on a wet manhole cover ). 

It is often safer and less stressful to cycle more quickly thus keeping up with traffic. There are parts of my commute where I travel 30mph (ok downhill!) and I am surrounded by cars travelling at approximately the same speed. I have never had any conflict with anyone in this situation and this is the most enjoyable part of my ride.

With regards to the video, would you overtake another car if it was overtaking on the exit of a roundabout? Should cyclists receive any less room and respect?


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## Chris B (19 Sep 2007)

Bent, I commute 5 miles in Bristol down the main A road into the centre. Maybe your video doesn't reflect how serious you think it is but I'd say that I have a near bus-bike interface like that at least weekly.

Magna, maybe defensive is the wrong word. Protective riding might be a better description, protective of your welfare that is rather than road position and equal status.


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## magnatom (19 Sep 2007)

Chris B said:


> Magna, maybe defensive is the wrong word. Protective riding might be a better description, protective of your welfare that is rather than road position and equal status.



I take that road position because is is the most protective/defensive (same thing really!). Have you read Cyclecraft?

I would also like to point out, that I don't treat Cyclecraft as a bible. Yes of course you need to assess situations, risks etc for yourself. I do that. However, I find Cyclecraft does provide excellent guiding principles which I try my best to follow.


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## Chris B (19 Sep 2007)

No I've heard of it but not read it. Where do you get it on pdf?

What would it add to my 30 years cycling and 17 years driving experience? Most of sensible cycling is common sense i.e. they're big metal boxes and I'm a lump of flesh = I'll be cautious.


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## magnatom (19 Sep 2007)

Chris B said:


> No I've heard of it but not read it. Where do you get it on pdf?
> 
> What would it add to my 30 years cycling and 17 years driving experience? Most of sensible cycling is common sense i.e. they're big metal boxes and I'm a lump of flesh = I'll be cautious.



Chris,

I'm sure you would agree that we all continue to learn despite our experience. Who knows what you might learn! The chap that wrote it is very knowledgeable!

You would have to buy it I'm afraid. Have a look here http://www.cyclecraft.co.uk


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## Alan Frame (19 Sep 2007)

You know, the more I read about helmet cams, the more I'm convinced that they give a rider a false sense of security.
I'm sure they can be useful in certain circumstances, but is there not a danger that the rider could be led into confrontational situations simply because of the psychological boost that he/she will be backed up by the footage taken ? Having a camera pointed up their left nostril will deter the ordinary person in the street from aggression, but may well have no effect whatsoever on the serial road rager.
In my book, self preservation is the name of the game, so seeking confrontation is best avoided. I keep my aggression for when there is no alternative.


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## Nigeyy (19 Sep 2007)

Wow, had quite a time reading all the responses to this. After my initial post on this and looking at the video a couple more times, I might be changing my point of view on this, so Magnatom, take this for what it's worth!

1. When Magnatom was just about to exit the roundabout, it looks like he was not in primary position relative to the kerb (can't tell 100% from the video, but it looks like that). That would seem to allow adequate room for the driver to overtake (again, hard to tell, it just seems from the video there was).
2. Then I'm not sure Magnatom did an adequate shoulder check or had time to confirm he could overtake to the right of the manhole cover.
3. Even if it is legal, I'm not sure it's a good idea to (on a bicycle that is) to overtake another road user (unless I had to) exiting a roundabout, and double that up with the manhole cover being a further hazard. Too much depending on the driver behind you.

Having said all that, I do still stand by the fact the driver wasn't driving well and appeared to be impatient; I know if I saw a cyclist exiting a roundabout with a slower cyclist in front as well as a manhole cover on the road, I'd be in absolutely no hurry to overtake at that point.

What doesn't come across from the video is how abruptly or not Magnatom swung out (if he did), or the speed of the car (could that driver has braked to avoid overtaking or was he committed by then and surprized by Magnatom overtaking?).

But I think to avoid this situation, usually I wouldn't overtake another road user exiting a roundabout -the problems are that road positioning isn't 100% defined or sorted out at that point, and motorized vehicles are tending to accelerate after encountering the roundabout. I'd wait until traffic and road layout becomes more consistent and predictable.


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## spindrift (19 Sep 2007)

These drivers who use their cars as a weapon are beyond belief- both the bus driver and the "cyclist" driving the car clearly don't have a clue what the HC says with regard to cyclists. Bravo for posting these magna, if it makes one stupid, aggressive idiot driver like those two take more care then you've done well.

Both clips of films show drivers flouting the HC and placing vulnerable road users' lives in danger... for what? A few seconds shaved off their journey time? Is it worth it, really? Why does it offend those two drivers so much that they will threaten and intimidate other road users for no discernible gain?

The excuses used by speeding drivers or the idiots in the clips above are predictably boring: "I am a safe driver, I know best, you are a cyclist and therefore automatically not as important". It's an attitude that kills people daily and whilst slowly and over time speeding is becoming to be seen as as recklessly stupid as drunk driving it's gonna take evidence of the kind magna's posting to make people realise how freaking stupid these drivers' actions are.


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## habibi (19 Sep 2007)

I only have one standard response for these drivers.

"what the **** are you playing at?"

[motorist spouts garbage about cyclists should be in the gutter]

"No, i'll tell you what. You're a ****ing bully in a cage. Try that again and i'll ****ing have you, son".

I've never met a motorist that didn't instantly back off after that. Maybe one day I will. Reason with them? No point. They believe they are superior road users, the ubermensch of the public highway, and no amount of reasoning changes their minds.


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## Twenty Inch (19 Sep 2007)

spindrift said:


> These drivers who use their cars as a weapon are beyond belief- both the bus driver and the "cyclist" driving the car clearly don't have a clue what the HC says with regard to cyclists. Bravo for posting these magna, if it makes one stupid, aggressive idiot driver like those two take more care then you've done well.
> 
> Both clips of films show drivers flouting the HC and placing vulnerable road users' lives in danger... for what? A few seconds shaved off their journey time? Is it worth it, really? Why does it offend those two drivers so much that they will threaten and intimidate other road users for no discernible gain?
> 
> The excuses used by speeding drivers or the idiots in the clips above are predictably boring: "I am a safe driver, I know best, you are a cyclist and therefore automatically not as important". It's an attitude that kills people daily and whilst slowly and over time speeding is becoming to be seen as as recklessly stupid as drunk driving it's gonna take evidence of the kind magna's posting to make people realise how freaking stupid these drivers' actions are.



What he said. The cager apologists on this thread can parse phrases and split video hairs for as long as they like - both those drivers were acting like pricks.

@ Habibi - you reminded me of one bully in a car cutting me up, dropping back and then speeding past again. I caught him at the lights and he leaned out to give me verbal. I said very quietly "Shut up or I'll break your neck". You've never seen someone wind down so quickly! Gives me a warm glow just remembering it.


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## habibi (19 Sep 2007)

From my experience you have to shock motorists out of their stupor before they consider changing their attitudes. I'd rather they were shocked by a confrontational cyclist that doesn't conform to the meek reasoning stereotype they were expecting, than be shocked later down the line by a cyclist careering over the bonnet and crashing their head on the windscreen.


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## magnatom (19 Sep 2007)

Alan Frame said:


> You know, the more I read about helmet cams, the more I'm convinced that they give a rider a false sense of security.
> I'm sure they can be useful in certain circumstances, but is there not a danger that the rider could be led into confrontational situations simply because of the psychological boost that he/she will be backed up by the footage taken ? Having a camera pointed up their left nostril will deter the ordinary person in the street from aggression, but may well have no effect whatsoever on the serial road rager.
> In my book, self preservation is the name of the game, so seeking confrontation is best avoided. I keep my aggression for when there is no alternative.



I've said it before I'll say it again. I have always confronted people like this, having the camera has changed nothing.

Also I honestly don't think I was aggressive. Firm, yes, but not aggressive. I don't even swear, although the driver does.


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## Twenty Inch (19 Sep 2007)

Yes, of course, we're doing it for their own good.


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## magnatom (19 Sep 2007)

Nigeyy said:


> Wow, had quite a time reading all the responses to this. After my initial post on this and looking at the video a couple more times, I might be changing my point of view on this, so Magnatom, take this for what it's worth!
> 
> 1. When Magnatom was just about to exit the roundabout, it looks like he was not in primary position relative to the kerb (can't tell 100% from the video, but it looks like that). That would seem to allow adequate room for the driver to overtake (again, hard to tell, it just seems from the video there was).



You might be right here. I probably do loose the primary position momentarily, however, I had looked behind and the car in the correct lane to come off at my exit was well behind. This chap sneaked off from the wrong lane. When I looked back initially all I could see was the clio in the right turn lane so I felt safe to take the primary. It turned out he was coming straight on. I think he hit the horn as he was annoyed that I would dare stop him trying to overtake on and coming off the roundabout!



> 2. Then I'm not sure Magnatom did an adequate shoulder check or had time to confirm he could overtake to the right of the manhole cover.



I look twice. Once on the roundabout and once upon exit. When else could I have looked?



> 3. Even if it is legal, I'm not sure it's a good idea to (on a bicycle that is) to overtake another road user (unless I had to) exiting a roundabout, and double that up with the manhole cover being a further hazard. Too much depending on the driver behind you.



Cars often overtake me here when I am in secondary. I don't have a problem with that. So there should certainly not be a problem for me overtaking a cyclist. I can understand that conflicts can occur at the exit of the roundabout, but this one only occurred because this 'chap' decided to take the wrong lane on the roundabout with the aim of overtaking me. He made his decision to overtake too early and didn't want to back out. He then got annoyed at me because I didn't do what he expected me to do, i.e. hug the curb. At least that's my take on it, and I suppose I have the advantage of having been there .



> What doesn't come across from the video is how abruptly or not Magnatom swung out (if he did), or the speed of the car (could that driver has braked to avoid overtaking or was he committed by then and surprized by Magnatom overtaking?).
> 
> But I think to avoid this situation, usually I wouldn't overtake another road user exiting a roundabout -the problems are that road positioning isn't 100% defined or sorted out at that point, and motorized vehicles are tending to accelerate after encountering the roundabout. I'd wait until traffic and road layout becomes more consistent and predictable.



I suppose the best evidence in my favour of not swinging out too fast was that the driver didn't say I did. His complaint was that I was too far out in the road, not that I swung out.

I do sometimes have to take that road position anyway because of parked cars, and I've never had a problem there before. If I don't hold primary then I can get pinned in by passing cars and have to stop at the parked cars.

Ho hum. I didn't think this discussion would go on for quite so long, but posting the video has served a good purpose. It has got us all debating road positioning, overtaking, roundabouts, driver discipline etc. So it has served it's purpose.


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## col (19 Sep 2007)

As vehicles are exiting a roundabout ,as has been mentioned,they are normally accelerating,and looking left as they do it,if a cyclist decides to claim primary and or overtake while still on the exit,then its a bad call by the cyclist.And its not a good idea to get vehicles slowing up for your right to primary,on an exit off a roundabout,because the following vehicles are not expecting it,so you could actually cause an accident,by claiming your right to primary and the safer road position.


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## magnatom (19 Sep 2007)

col said:


> As vehicles are exiting a roundabout ,as has been mentioned,they are normally accelerating,and looking left as they do it,if a cyclist decides to claim primary and or overtake while still on the exit,then its a bad call by the cyclist.And its not a good idea to get vehicles slowing up for your right to primary,on an exit off a roundabout,because the following vehicles are not expecting it,so you could actually cause an accident,by claiming your right to primary and the safer road position.



But Col, I took primary on the roundabout and the car following me was well behind. As I said before this chap took the wrong lane in his attempt to overtake. My only mistake may have been not to hold the primary position enough. That way he would have had to slow down. In my experience of driving as I exit a roundabout I look at the road I am entering. I am sure this is what most if not all drivers would do. Therefore, this chap should have no problem seeing me, on and off the roundabout and should have no problems slowing down for me. 

I should also point out that the overtake was about 10-15 metres away from the roundabout so not right on the exit.


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## col (19 Sep 2007)

magnatom said:


> But Col, I took primary on the roundabout and the car following me was well behind. As I said before this chap took the wrong lane in his attempt to overtake. My only mistake may have been not to hold the primary position enough. That way he would have had to slow down. In my experience of driving as I exit a roundabout I look at the road I am entering. I am sure this is what most if not all drivers would do. Therefore, this chap should have no problem seeing me, on and off the roundabout and should have no problems slowing down for me.
> 
> I should also point out that the overtake was about 10-15 metres away from the roundabout so not right on the exit.


Or were you in a bit of a hurry,so had to pass the vehicle in front of you,i mean cyclist.


Come on Mag,you had barely cleared the exit kerbs,and if that drain made you go further out,why couldnt you hang back for a safer place?


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## magnatom (19 Sep 2007)

col said:


> Come on Mag,you had barely cleared the exit kerbs,and if that drain made you go further out,why couldnt you hang back for a safer place?




Because this is a normal line that I take anyway, as there are often parked cars on the left and it would be unsafe to take secondary and then have to pull out into the traffic.

Your going to have to trust me that the cyclist I was overtaking is a bit of a red herring. What really matters is that I took a road position and the driver behind me decided to ignore that and pass to close anyway. Had I taken this line because of parked cars (which I am sure you would agree is fine) then the same thing would have happened and I would still be posting the video.


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## Nigeyy (19 Sep 2007)

magnatom said:


> I look twice. Once on the roundabout and once upon exit. When else could I have looked?



I only put that ("appeared") because just from the video it doesn't look like it -but that is probably because even though your camera shot changed angle, it doesn't show what was behind you -but of course that doesn't mean to say it showed what you saw with your own eyes.



magnatom said:


> I can understand that conflicts can occur at the exit of the roundabout, but this one only occurred because this 'chap' decided to take the wrong lane on the roundabout with the aim of overtaking me.



My point to that is if you understand conflicts can occur, why not put off the overtaking until it's less likely a conflict will occur? Even if it is the chap's fault (which I think it was) I'd rather be safe than overtaking. I'm in the school of thought that unfortunately you have to ride to other people's appropriate and inappropriate driving behaviour and habits.



magnatom said:


> and I suppose I have the advantage of having been there .



And there's the bottom line, only you were there Magnatom and the video doesn't always give a good representation of what the situation was. As I said I don't think the car driver made a good decision.



magnatom said:


> Ho hum. I didn't think this discussion would go on for quite so long, but posting the video has served a good purpose. It has got us all debating road positioning, overtaking, roundabouts, driver discipline etc. So it has served it's purpose.



Definitely! Worth analyzing for anyone to see if you can put yourself at less risk given a similar situation. By the way, I salute you for putting the link up and taking the feedback (good and bad).


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## col (19 Sep 2007)

magnatom said:


> Because this is a normal line that I take anyway, as there are often parked cars on the left and it would be unsafe to take secondary and then have to pull out into the traffic.
> 
> Your going to have to trust me that the cyclist I was overtaking is a bit of a red herring. What really matters is that I took a road position and the driver behind me decided to ignore that and pass to close anyway. Had I taken this line because of parked cars (which I am sure you would agree is fine) then the same thing would have happened and I would still be posting the video.




I dont think anyone expects a cyclist to pull out into the road as he is exiting a roundabout,it was an unsafe move,and luckily for you the driver saw you do it in time,he will have been coming off the roundabout unaware of what you did,wrong place to claim primary,and then,as it looks on the vid,your goading him to stop,most people would see that sort of action a threat,again,you were probably lucky it was a gentleman


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## col (19 Sep 2007)

> i'd expect it if I was following and paying proper attention, and I don't consider it an unsafe move. A car shouldn't be overtaking a bike on a roundabout exit, so it shouldn't matter where the bike is. Except that the cyclist would be safer if he was in a position where he could minimise the opportunity for a car to pass.




Seeing as the car passed while just going over the white line,as Mag was in the primary,there would have been plenty of room if Mag were in the secondary.But mag put himself and others in danger,by claiming primory in a bad place.Come on Mag, admit it,instead of claiming the car was a bad driver,the drain was in the way ect,come on


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## spindrift (19 Sep 2007)

Slowing down would have been far more dangerous, it would have meant a clearly impatient driver would have had to overtake two cyclists instead of one, imcompetently. Had magna been having a cycling test and carried out the manoever there would have been noi problem. Had the driver carried out those actions in a driving test he would have failed, and were I the examiner I'd have kicked him out of the car. The fact the driver stopped is another irony: one minute he's driving as if he's carrying a heart transplant to a poor blind ginger orphan girl, the next he takes the time to pull over and start screaming at a cyclist for a perceived slight.


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## Brock (19 Sep 2007)

I've gotta agree with col here. While negotiating the roundabout you appear to veer from secondary to primary then secondary on the exit before veering back out very wide to overtake the other cyclist with barely a glance behind to see if it was safe to do so. I think you'd have less incidents like that if you tried to be slightly more predictable, and maybe perform overtaking maneuvers when it's safe to do so. Did you signal that you were intending to move across the lane? I was about to say the driver was at fault also, but actually I'm not sure he was, in fact, respect to him for stopping and trying to discuss the situation. Not many would.


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## magnatom (19 Sep 2007)

I had a look at the roundabout on the way home and I am now certain that I took the safest path. I probably need a diagram (or to draw lines on a aerial map - does anyone know the best place to do this online?) to explain which I will try and do tomorrow. This is one of those occasions where you do something instictively. I had never really thought through my road position at this roundabout in detail.

However, to summarise what I will explain tomorrow, if I was to remain in the primary position all of the way around the roundabout the car would have come at me from the side, due to him taking the wrong lane on the roundabout. The line I took is correct to prevent cars overtaking who have taken the roundabout in the correct lane.

Hopefully I can convince a few doubters.


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## col (19 Sep 2007)

You dont need to convince me about primary and reasons for it,but there is a time and place for this,a roundabout exit isnt one of them.


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## BentMikey (19 Sep 2007)

col said:


> You dont need to convince me about primary and reasons for it,but there is a time and place for this,a roundabout exit isnt one of them.



Now that is so completely wrong! A roundabout is EXACTLY the right place for primary, and one of the most important places to maintain it.


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## col (19 Sep 2007)

BentMikey said:


> Now that is so completely wrong! A roundabout is EXACTLY the right place for primary, and one of the most important places to maintain it.




Not in the way it was done in the vid


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## Cab (19 Sep 2007)

BentMikey said:


> Now that is so completely wrong! A roundabout is EXACTLY the right place for primary, and one of the most important places to maintain it.



Theres one roundabout I use with a pitiful narrow cycle lane on two of the exits. They're there so people turning right on bikes can hug the kerb. To use them is to invite very dangerous overtaking; if you're cycling faster than walking pace its insane to use them.

Most roundabouts require that you stamp your authority onto the traffic. Claim your space as visibly as you can and keep it.


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## BentMikey (19 Sep 2007)

Col, you're talking bollocks mate.


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## Maz (19 Sep 2007)

I normally stick my right arm out when overtaking or going from secondary to primary...makes those behind you realise you're making a concerted effort to pull out and you're not just wobbling around.

well, i think it's a good idea, anyway...


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## Cab (19 Sep 2007)

col said:


> I dont think anyone expects a cyclist to pull out into the road as he is exiting a roundabout,it was an unsafe move,and luckily for you the driver saw you do it in time,he will have been coming off the roundabout unaware of what you did,wrong place to claim primary,and then,as it looks on the vid,your goading him to stop,most people would see that sort of action a threat,again,you were probably lucky it was a gentleman



I couldn't disagree more. 

If you're not in primary there, and theres a jerk behind you, he'll pass too close. Fact. Primary is the safest place to be on a roundabout, and cyclists failing to take such a road position is a cause of getting squished.


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## Brock (19 Sep 2007)

As magnatom exits the roundabout he is practically in the gutter here:






Then three seconds later he is actually wider than primary position thus:





Surely if you want to hold primary on the exit of the roundabout you should have it already, not just veer across when you feel like it. Magnatom appears to start off behind the lorry in secondary, then take the racing line across the roundabout, inexplicably swerving wide off the elbow at the exit. The first time I watched it it _felt_ unsafe, and regardless of whether the driver was at fault, I certainly wouldn't negotiate a roundabout like that.
At least, that's how it appears to me, helmet cams don't give the best view of the situation I know.


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## col (19 Sep 2007)

What we are on about is the vid,and it looks to me that he dropped a clanger on the exit.As for primary,if we all did that and didnt expect cars to try and pass,then your not living in the real world,and to expect traffic to go at our speeds,and stay behind us,is well pretty silly dont you think?I suppose an example could be,if pedestrians took to walking on the road,in primary position,because it is theyre right you know,i dont think you would be behind them long,and theyre perception of what is a wide enough gap as you pass,is as exagerated as yours is with cars.we would be hearing the same old argument that cyclist are nutters,and dont give enough room.So i think videoing everyday accurances of vehicles passing us cyclists too near,in our opinions,is a bottomless pit,of the same old boring ,normal everyday thing that happens when you cycle on busy roads.
Start cycling safely,and not asserting this belief that you think its safer to block the roads and annoy people who use faster vehicles.Then you may have less hassle on your rides.


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## col (19 Sep 2007)

Brock said:


> As magnatom exits the roundabout he is practically in the gutter here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Thats my point,he swings out ,at probably one of the most dangerous places of a roundabout,which will be totally unexpected by an accelerating car coming off the roundabout.It doesnt matter how many names people call the driver ,Mag my friend,you dropped a massive bollock on this one.


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## col (19 Sep 2007)

BentMikey said:


> Col, you're talking bollocks mate.





I think you need to look at the vid again


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## Rhythm Thief (19 Sep 2007)

Brock said:


> As magnatom exits the roundabout he is practically in the gutter here:
> 
> 
> Then three seconds later he is actually wider than primary position thus:
> ...



That's how it came across to me when I watched it. I wouldn't have chosen to overtake another cyclist there anyway, certainly not with faster traffic coming off the roundabout behind me. It's not an argument about whether you were right or wrong to be in primary at that point for me Mag, it's more about the suddenness of your manoevre. Always allowing for deficiencies in my viewpoint, of course - after all, you were there and I wasn't.


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## BentMikey (19 Sep 2007)

I see what you guys are saying, but in fairness to magnatom, he's simply following the route of the traffic flow in primary. That doesn't always correspond with the lane markings, and it can often be dangerous to ignore the average traffic flow in a rigid adherence to how the lanes are painted.

There still wasn't time or space for that car driver to overtake safely or use the right-turning lane for a cheeky manoeuvre, which is the primary mistake in this video.


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## col (19 Sep 2007)

BentMikey said:


> I see what you guys are saying, but in fairness to magnatom, he's simply following the route of the traffic flow in primary. That doesn't always correspond with the lane markings, and it can often be dangerous to ignore the average traffic flow in a rigid adherence to how the lanes are painted.
> 
> There still wasn't time or space for that car driver to overtake safely or use the right-turning lane for a cheeky manoeuvre, which is the primary mistake in this video.




No it wasnt


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## BentMikey (19 Sep 2007)

If you're going to be as pointlessly argumentative as bonj IMO, then *plonk* it is.


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## col (19 Sep 2007)

I dont see how you can argue such an obvious mistake,you blame anything you can but the real cause?As for pointless? I dont see it.But reverting to insults(i think) isnt very constructive is it? 
I dont know what the word is,or what it means,but that seems pretty pointless dont you think?

You said the car was the primary mistake,i dissagreed,how is that poinless?or do we just accept what you say,with out question?


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## BentMikey (20 Sep 2007)

I've watched the vid a few more times, and I've changed my mind. I think Brock is right, to a degree.

There were two options in that situation, IMO. One was to take primary all the way around, and not have cut in at the point Brock shows. The other would have been to wait in secondary after the exit behind the other cyclist until the muppet overtook.



col said:


> You dont need to convince me about primary and reasons for it,but there is a time and place for this,a roundabout exit isnt one of them.



I don't take your points about primary Col, both the one about never being in primary on *any* roundabout exits, or on this one specifically. I'm not sure you should bother replying for my benefit, if you google "plonk usenet".


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## Cab (20 Sep 2007)

col said:


> What we are on about is the vid,and it looks to me that he dropped a clanger on the exit.As for primary,if we all did that and didnt expect cars to try and pass,then your not living in the real world,and to expect traffic to go at our speeds,and stay behind us,is well pretty silly dont you think?



If I'm going at a decent lick in primary position then I expect... No, I _require_ anyone who wants to overtake to wait for a safe moment to do so. Not only do _I_ require it, the _law_ requires it. If I can move over at a safe point to allow overtaking I'll do so, thats simple road craft, but in the 'real world' anyone wanting to overtake me has to go at my speed until it is safe to pass.

Anyone who believes otherwise should get off the road.


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## col (20 Sep 2007)

> So following your reasoning, one should never use primary, as it encourages following drivers to overtake dangerously.
> 
> Sorry, but that's rubbish.





Again,a masterpiece of playing on words Mr P But yes,i would rather cycle safely,than claim my right when it would be inapropriate,im puzzled as to where you got the never use primary bit from,?i think you answered yourself with your last sentence


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## col (20 Sep 2007)

Cab said:


> If I'm going at a decent lick in primary position then I expect... No, I _require_ anyone who wants to overtake to wait for a safe moment to do so. Not only do _I_ require it, the _law_ requires it. If I can move over at a safe point to allow overtaking I'll do so, thats simple road craft, but in the 'real world' anyone wanting to overtake me has to go at my speed until it is safe to pass.
> 
> Anyone who believes otherwise should get off the road.




I can see the usual arguments are being used,instead of sticking to the origional topic,ill remind you what it was shall i? The video of Mag making a mistake.


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## col (20 Sep 2007)

BentMikey said:


> I've watched the vid a few more times, and I've changed my mind. I think Brock is right, to a degree.
> 
> There were two options in that situation, IMO. One was to take primary all the way around, and not have cut in at the point Brock shows. The other would have been to wait in secondary after the exit behind the other cyclist until the muppet overtook.
> 
> ...





So your starting to realise that swinging out in front of a car while exiting the roundabout is a mistake.Again,im not sure where you get me saying, never take primary from?But i suppose it masks having to say a mistake was made doesnt it.

Just googled what you said,and im a bit surprised at what it seems to be,if you dissagree with me that badly,thats fine,but i thought the whole idea was to debate?


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## spindrift (20 Sep 2007)

Col reminds me of the news reporter who relayed news of Zak Carr's death with the headline "Traffic chaos after accident".

Those who apologise for killer drivers and refuse to accept that driving a ton of steel at speed toward a vulnerable road user is unacceptable, threatening behaviour have blood on their hands. That's not hyperbole, attitudes like Col's are the result of a mindset that sees roads as drivers' own personal racetracks. Get out of my way. Impede me- you die. It's tragic, whether it's fed by celebrities "joking" about crushing cyclists to death or a member of parliament- that stupid bitch Kate Hoey- admitting that she uses her car as a weapon to bully cyclists off the roads, the results are the same. The bullies rule, anyone else who gets killed for the crime of being on a bicycle had it coming.

Very sad.


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## col (20 Sep 2007)

Im really gobsmacked here,where has all this inuendo and insinuation come from.Its really quite simple,a mistake was made on that vid in my opinion,and you all go off on a different tangent to the actual subject, because you dont like my answer.Did he or did he not make a mistake by swinging out at the time he did?


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## spindrift (20 Sep 2007)

A member of parliament, Kate Hoey, actually admits to using her car as a weapon to bully and intimidate cyclists off the roads and onto dangerous, ill-thought out cycle lanes:

It was The Wail that carried Kate Hoey's recommendation to terrorise 
cyclists off the roads by blasting them with the car horn as you pass: 

Braking point | Magazine | The Observer 


This dozy bitch seriously uses her car as a weapon and boasts about it 
and The Mail carries her mad dribble. 

Jeremy Clarkson "jokes" about running over and killing cyclists, Nigel Havers calls us "lycra nazis" and a cyclist waiting stationary at traffic lights is crushed to death by a lorry turning left and the press report that the cyclist "collided with a lorry!"

The car driver flouted the HC and then, after giving the impression that he was on a life-or-death mission and his speeding dangerously close to cyclists was essential, then demonstrates that his journey was not urgent or pressing in any way when he chooses to stop and start screaming at magna.

Defenders of this kind of driving are the dinosaurs of road safety- happily dying off as they get older and drivers realise they have to make allowances for vulnerable road users.


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## Cab (20 Sep 2007)

col said:


> I can see the usual arguments are being used,instead of sticking to the origional topic,ill remind you what it was shall i? The video of Mag making a mistake.



The video shows Mag taking an appropriate line through a corner; swung out further than I'd have done, but that doesn't mean he's in the wrong. That corner isn't a safe or appropriate place for overtaking, the driver should therefore not be overtakingl. End of story. 

I don't see the problem here; you expect someone to not deviate in his distance from the kerb at all? Frankly, any motorist using that as an excuse for dangerous overtaking deserves jail.


----------



## spindrift (20 Sep 2007)

_Did he or did he not make a mistake by swinging out at the time he did?_

Magna? Of course not, read my post again, staying behind a slow moving cyclist as an impatient driver approaches the pinch point is daft. Do you actually ride a bike?

It's incredibly simple Col, the driver didn't leave enough room and blasted the horn as magna overtook the other cyclist. WTF was magna supposed to do, cycle into the other cyclist to make way? Where's the six foot gap? Why carry out a dangerous manoever in order to shave maybe a second of what transpires to be a non-urgent drive, as if that would excuse it anyway.


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## col (20 Sep 2007)

spindrift said:


> _Did he or did he not make a mistake by swinging out at the time he did?_
> 
> Magna? Of course not, read my post again, staying behind a slow moving cyclist as an impatient driver approaches the pinch point is daft. Do you actually ride a bike?
> 
> It's incredibly simple Col, the driver didn't leave enough room and blasted the horn as magna overtook the other cyclist. WTF was magna supposed to do, cycle into the other cyclist to make way? Where's the six foot gap? Why carry out a dangerous manoever in order to shave maybe a second of what transpires to be a non-urgent drive, as if that would excuse it anyway.




Your right ,mag shouldnt have overtook to save a few seconds,he should have waited till he was clear of the exit.And thats what he did,a dangerous manoever,im surprised you believe otherwise.


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## spindrift (20 Sep 2007)

_Your right ,mag shouldnt have overtook to save a few seconds,he should have waited till he was clear of the exit.And thats what he did,a dangerous manoever,im surprised you believe otherwise._

It's "you're" FFS sake, semi- literate *and an apologist for boy racers.*

*Don't lie about what I've said col, misrepresentation of another persons' posts is a gutless, cowardly trick. Wise up and grow up you sad sack self-gratification artist. *


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## Twenty Inch (20 Sep 2007)

Col is a recidivist cager apologist, who recently tried to imply that my near-death experience with a delivery truck was my fault. I recommend everyone put him on their ignore list.


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## magnatom (20 Sep 2007)

Well don't ever let it be said I am not willing to take criticism!! (Although no-one has called me names yet so I should avoid crying)

I will be posting some aerial pics shortly which will I hope at least partially vindicate me. 

Watch this space......


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## col (20 Sep 2007)

Cab said:


> The video shows Mag taking an appropriate line through a corner; swung out further than I'd have done, but that doesn't mean he's in the wrong. That corner isn't a safe or appropriate place for overtaking, the driver should therefore not be overtakingl. End of story.
> 
> I don't see the problem here; you expect someone to not deviate in his distance from the kerb at all? Frankly, any motorist using that as an excuse for dangerous overtaking deserves jail.




 Why do you start stating things that are nothing to do with the question in hand?oh and i think all murderers should be hung,what was the question again?Come on,


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## Cab (20 Sep 2007)

col said:


> Your right ,mag shouldnt have overtook to save a few seconds,he should have waited till he was clear of the exit.And thats what he did,a dangerous manoever,im surprised you believe otherwise.



I'd have probably waited in primary position behind the other cyclist. However, Magnatom judged that eh could safely overtake the other guy without endangering himself, the other cyclist, or anyone on the other side of the road. He's smaller than a car, he's less damaging, in his judgement that was a safe manoevre. I can't tell from the camera footage whether I'd agree, but I have no reason to doubt him.

The motorist trying to do the same thing with a larger, heavier, more hazardous vehicle is rather more serious.


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## magnatom (20 Sep 2007)

Chill guys. I'm chilled. I know Col has some unusual views but I don't think he is a troll or deliberately out to cause trouble. There is room for everyone here.


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## Cab (20 Sep 2007)

col said:


> Why do you start stating things that are nothing to do with the question in hand?oh and i think all murderers should be hung,what was the question again?Come on,



It has everythign to do with it; Mags position wasn't illegal, wasn't even unsafe, it was the guy behind him overtaking inappropriately that imposed risk.


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## bonj2 (20 Sep 2007)

Maybe the other driver _had to_ drive aggressively because of the pressures of his job eh col


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## Rhythm Thief (20 Sep 2007)

Cab said:


> If I'm going at a decent lick in primary position then I expect... No, I _require_ anyone who wants to overtake to wait for a safe moment to do so. Not only do _I_ require it, the _law_ requires it. If I can move over at a safe point to allow overtaking I'll do so, thats simple road craft, but in the 'real world' anyone wanting to overtake me has to go at my speed until it is safe to pass.
> 
> Anyone who believes otherwise should get off the road.



That's fair enough, and I don't think anyone's arguing against that (I know I'm not). The issue here is that Mag seemed to pull off the roundabout, back into secondary (nearly) behind another cyclist, then out into primary in front of a car in order to overtake the slower cyclist. If (and I stress that 'if') that is what happened, it's poor roadcraft on Magnaton's part. Fair enough, we all make mistakes, but this is turning into a debate about primary position, which I think misses the point somewhat.


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## Rhythm Thief (20 Sep 2007)

Cab said:


> The video shows Mag taking an appropriate line through a corner; swung out further than I'd have done, but that doesn't mean he's in the wrong. *That corner isn't a safe or appropriate place for overtaking, the driver should therefore not be overtakingl. End of story. *




Neither should the cyclist, surely?


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## Rhythm Thief (20 Sep 2007)

col said:


> Im really gobsmacked here,where has all this inuendo and insinuation come from.Its really quite simple,a mistake was made on that vid in my opinion,and you all go off on a different tangent to the actual subject, because you dont like my answer.Did he or did he not make a mistake by swinging out at the time he did?




Don't worry too much about Spindrift Col. He's like this with everyone, in whatever guise he feels like adopting that day. It loses its sting after a bit.


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## col (20 Sep 2007)

spindrift said:


> _Your right ,mag shouldnt have overtook to save a few seconds,he should have waited till he was clear of the exit.And thats what he did,a dangerous manoever,im surprised you believe otherwise._
> 
> It's "you're" FFS sake, semi- literate *and an apologist for boy racers.*
> 
> *Don't lie about what I've said col, misrepresentation of another persons' posts is a gutless, cowardly trick. Wise up and grow up you sad sack self-gratification artist. *




Ooo and bag
I was simply trying to show that both cars and bikes can make the same mistake,change car for bike and vise versa,obviously you took offence,if i was trying to say you said different i wouldnt have quoted you.


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## col (20 Sep 2007)

magnatom said:


> Chill guys. I'm chilled. I know Col has some unusual views but I don't think he is a troll or deliberately out to cause trouble. There is room for everyone here.



Cheers for that Mag,its a debate pure and simple.


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## spindrift (20 Sep 2007)

Why is it dangerous to assume a driver is not a homicidal maniac who blasts his horn at anyone who dares share the roads with him?

Have an opinion by all means Col, but when you lie about what's been posted and deliberately misepresent what others have said then, yes, you come across as a dishonest, cowardly self-gratification artist. The solution's in your hands, so to speak.


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## spindrift (20 Sep 2007)

_Col is a recidivist cager apologist, who recently tried to imply that my near-death experience with a delivery truck was my fault. I recommend everyone put him on their ignore list._

How do you do this please?

Opinions I can stand, liars pee me off, how can I block this creature's drivel from appearing please?


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## Twenty Inch (20 Sep 2007)

spindrift said:


> _Col is a recidivist cager apologist, who recently tried to imply that my near-death experience with a delivery truck was my fault. I recommend everyone put him on their ignore list._
> 
> How do you do this please?
> 
> Opinions I can stand, liars pee me off, how can I block this creature's drivel from appearing please?




My account - miscellaneous - buddy/ignore list, enter col in ignore list, untick the "check all" box, save list.


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## spindrift (20 Sep 2007)

Brilliant, thanks. Done. I saw that bod's remark on your thread twentyinch. Why these muppets think that jokes about killer drivers are appropriate is beyond me , but he's been plonked.


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## magnatom (20 Sep 2007)

Ok here goes...

Here are two aerial pictures of the roundabout in question:












The first image shows the roundabout in question. The second image shows my line in green, my best guess at the drivers line in red, and where I would cycle to be in the primary position all of the way round in yellow.

Now just imagine I am Taggart and I am explaining the scene of a crime :

Look at the first image. What I want you to look for on the west exit is dirt. Where is the dirt on the road? If there is a preferred path that cars take they keep the road clean and dirt accumulates everywhere else. So looking at that exit you will see that cars don't seem to follow the road marking here. They take more of a racing line, cutting across the lanes a little and cutting close to the left pavement on the exit.

Therefore, it is cars doing this that I have to stop cutting me up. Looking at picture two you can see the line I take. I don't take the racing line on the roundabout as that would bring me into conflict with cars turning right and possibly traveling faster than me. So I stay in the outside lane of the roundabout, but in the primary position to ensure I am visible. I have found from experience that if I take this line cars have two choices, either to sit behind me, which the vast majority do, or to try and undercut me by swinging right into the right turn lane and overtaking me on the roundabout. I have no way of stopping this. That is why on the roundabout I glance back to make sure no-one was doing this. They weren't.

As I exit the roundabout I do not keep primary position, because if anyone decided to take that extreme racing line I would come across the front of them bringing me into direct conflict and danger. Thus I slot into the normal car line which is close to the pavement and from there I follow the normal path that cars take, which again can be seen by looking at the dirt on the road. IMO this is the ideal line, whether or not there was a cyclist hugging the curb at this point. However, if I feel the presence of a car behind me just before I exit and I feel that they are going to pass me too close I sometimes chose to take a more secondary line on exit. However, this is my second choice as this takes me out of the flow of traffic and I then need to try and re-enter it with the problems that entails.

The red line is where I am fairly sure the clio driver went. On entrance to the roundabout he must have taken the right hand lane (which is right turn only), when I was on the roundabout and I looked back he would have appeared to be turning right, which a fair amount of cars do. However, he was going straight on and came off the roundabout at the extreme right of the lane. Had I been in the primary position we would have came into direct conflict much sooner and at a more dangerous angle. 

As you can see from the pictures as you exit the roundabout the pavement swings away from the road, i.e. the road widens to allow car parking. This makes it appear that I swing out as I exit the roundabout. I don't I take a smooth line following the normal flow of traffic. This chap takes the wrong lane on the entrance to the roundabout and on the roundabout itself and exits very late and comes into conflict with the normal driving line, and me. Also note that the only other person who was there, the clio driver does not claim that I swung out. I am sure he would have mentioned it if he felt I had.

Now some have suggested that I should have stayed in the secondary position and behind the cyclist. However, as I have explained I was taking my normal line on exit of the roundabout which has over the last two years has served me well. Yes if I followed the same path as the cyclist in front I would not have come into conflict with this chap, but that takes me out of the flow of traffic and can often (although not on this occasion) take me directly into parked cars.

Finally note on exit to the roundabout I do glance again behind and I see the car coming, however, as I am passing a manhole cover on my left I decide not to swing left to get out of the way of the clio. This manhole has a damaged surface around it and ideally I avoid going into it. Of course if I felt in enough danger I could take this course, but on this occasion I felt safe enough to continue on my line.

So final summary, I took a legitimate line, he didn't, and because I didn't hug the curb as he wished he hit his horn. That to me is a bully.


I put this post in preview and I was shocked at how long it was, so in the end I couldn't be bothered fully proof reading it! If there is anything I haven't covered or any questions you have feel free to ask. Although I do have work to get on with today!!


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## Cab (20 Sep 2007)

Rhythm Thief said:


> Neither should the cyclist, surely?



I refer the honourable beat burglar to my statement at 9:26 this morning


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## starseven (20 Sep 2007)

Looks like a fairly minor transgression to me , nice to see a driver stop and listen. had a different conversation then taken place, both parties may have been more considerate it future.


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## bonj2 (20 Sep 2007)

the issue I have with your identification of the 'clean' bit of road, is that this 'clean' bit is as far out to the right as the road markings allow - so how is it the 'racing line'?
you mean this bit?


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## Twenty Inch (20 Sep 2007)

Bonj are you trying to get it wrong? Of course it's not the clean bit.


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## magnatom (20 Sep 2007)

bonj said:


> the issue I have with your identification of the 'clean' bit of road, is that this 'clean' bit is as far out to the right as the road markings allow - so how is it the 'racing line'?
> you mean this bit?



I can assure you Bonj, thats the dirty bit! Do you know what colour tarmac is!!

I could always pop out and take a photo if you want.....nah, I'll leave you in your own world.

Does anyone sensible have any comments to make about my, admittedly, long post and pics?


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## Twenty Inch (20 Sep 2007)

Not me, I'm not sensible enough.

But your pics confirm your video and your explanations. And you did exactly what I do at a near identical roundabout. 

And the cardriver is a plank.


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## magnatom (20 Sep 2007)

Twenty Inch said:


> Not me, I'm not sensible enough.
> 
> But your pics confirm your video and your explanations. And you did exactly what I do at a near identical roundabout.
> 
> And the cardriver is a plank.



You must be sensible, you agree with me


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## stu20001 (20 Sep 2007)

Sorry but this seems a total over-reaction on your part - you don't appear to have checked behind you before overtaking the other cyclist. Clio seems far enough away from you to not put your life in danger. Chasing people down the road, gesticulating and starting an argument could do though. 

Chill out people.


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## Twenty Inch (20 Sep 2007)

stu20001 said:


> Sorry but this seems a total over-reaction on your part - you don't appear to have checked behind you before overtaking the other cyclist. Clio seems far enough away from you to not put your life in danger. Chasing people down the road, gesticulating and starting an argument could do though.
> 
> Chill out people.




Oh not again....


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## Cab (20 Sep 2007)

I can't believe we're discussing this. You react to where people are on the road and where they're going, Magna had the road space covered, the car didn't have to overtake, he wasn't going so fast and Magna didn't swerve out so abruptly that the motorist was forced to go around him. The motorist chose to pass dangerously close, sounding his horn to make a point of it. So dangerous overtaking, aggressive horn use, I'll bet that the oncoming traffic on the other side of the road got a shock too (so he could easily have caused an accident).

He's a bully, Magna stood up to him. It won't have helped, but it won't make things any worse. Like most bullies, he's also a moron (at least thats the evidence we have from his road behaviour).


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## magnatom (20 Sep 2007)

I should probably say that when people say I shouldn't have followed him and asked him to pull over, that they are probably right. It's just when someone does something dangerous to me and then hits their horn accusing me of being in the wrong, that really annoys me. As I say I hate bullies and it clouds my judgment a bit and I want to confront them. However, I never get angry at them, I never swear I just ask, why they did what they did, and if I have to I defend what I did. 

I am sure that this chap is a decent chap (in fact I know someone from youtube who has talked to him now and has confirmed this), but at that time he acted as a bully. Having confronted him, I am certain that he will give cyclists more space in the future, as I am sure he won't want some idiot having an on road discussion with him again! If that is the case then that is a result.

Anyway, having posted the aerial pics etc and the routes of the driver and myself, I am curious for those who thought I swung out to look at the details. Do you still think I swung out?

And for the last time, yes the actual incident was fairly minor! But I think we can all agree that posting it has been worthwhile. Not only has it produced some interesting debate, but it has probably helped a few post counts as well .


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## Brock (20 Sep 2007)

Still looks to me like the driver was probably already in the action of overtaking safely when Mag decided to veer across the road. There was no harm done because the car had plenty of space to avoid Mag's erratic riding, and even gave him a short friendly toot to wake him up, then had the decency to stop and discuss the matter.
Driver doesn't look like a 'boy racer' or a 'bully' to me, sorry. I'm the last person to be an apologist for bad driving, but everyone makes mistakes, and I think riding that particular line is just asking for an accident to happen.
Keep up the videos Mag, it's nice to have concrete (sic) examples of real road situations to discuss.


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## col (20 Sep 2007)

spindrift said:


> Why is it dangerous to assume a driver is not a homicidal maniac who blasts his horn at anyone who dares share the roads with him?
> 
> Have an opinion by all means Col, but when you lie about what's been posted and deliberately misepresent what others have said then, yes, you come across as a dishonest, cowardly self-gratification artist. The solution's in your hands, so to speak.




I explained why i changed in what i said,comparing to what you said,but you obviously want to make a big deal out of it,i like to think im anything but dishonest,and the only coward,is the one feeling name calling is the way to go.I could understand ,and even apologise, if iv done something terrible to you,but just with what has been insinuated to me,because i feel a mistake was made,and the way some of you have reacted,is astonishing,to say the least.Please do plonk me,it will save me having to do it to you.


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## magnatom (20 Sep 2007)

Brock said:


> Still looks to me like the driver was probably already in the action of overtaking safely when Mag decided to veer across the road. There was no harm done because the car had plenty of space to avoid Mag's erratic riding, and even gave him a short friendly toot to wake him up, then had the decency to stop and discuss the matter.
> Driver doesn't look like a 'boy racer' or a 'bully' to me, sorry. I'm the last person to be an apologist for bad driving, but everyone makes mistakes, and I think riding that particular line is just asking for an accident to happen.
> Keep up the videos Mag, it's nice to have concrete (sic) examples of real road situations to discuss.




I'm soory you still think that. I can't understand how you can say his manouver was fine when he went in the wrong lane on the roundabout with the aim of overtaking. That is bad driving full stop. 

Answer just one question, if he did this on his driving test would he fail? If the answer is yes, then this was bad driving.

I've never said he was a boy racer, and bullies all take different shapes and sizes. 

Anyway, maybe we just agree to disgree.


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## col (20 Sep 2007)

spindrift said:


> _Col is a recidivist cager apologist, who recently tried to imply that my near-death experience with a delivery truck was my fault. I recommend everyone put him on their ignore list._
> 
> How do you do this please?
> 
> Opinions I can stand, liars pee me off, how can I block this creature's drivel from appearing please?




I made an observation,of how it looked to me.If you knew there was something ahead that was going to make a vehicle pull in on you,why didnt you allow for it,.I wasnt making light of your incident.


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## col (20 Sep 2007)

magnatom said:


> I'm soory you still think that. I can't understand how you can say his manouver was fine when he went in the wrong lane on the roundabout with the aim of overtaking. That is bad driving full stop.
> 
> Answer just one question, if he did this on his driving test would he fail? If the answer is yes, then this was bad driving.
> 
> ...




Dont get me wrong Mag,im not having a go at you perse.I just think you made a mistake,nothing more.If you truly feel you did not,then ill agree to disagree (again) too.As it seems a couple of members take it to heart and get annoyed if i wont accept their version of events.


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## BentMikey (20 Sep 2007)

I must admit I rather dislike the sort of sloppy lane discipline exhibited here by the driver. I see it all the time, particularly on Hyde Park Corner and the Vauxhall gyratory. Stuff like cabbies coming from the nearside lane from Knightsbridge, going to the offside lane around the RAB, and back to the nearside to exit onto Constitution Hill. Bear in mind this involves crossing 4 lanes of traffic, screwing the flow up completely, and is done lots of times.


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## Road Fiddler (20 Sep 2007)

Bloody hell this thread has moved on.

When i first watched Mags video i didn't see much of a problem, as someone else said i thought he was slightly over reacting but i had my new cam on the back of my bike today and was overtaken very close by a car whilst i was over taking a couple of cyclists, he was so close i had to move my bars into the space behind his wing mirror to give the other cyclist room. When i looked back at the footage it looks as if there is sheds of room.

Seeing this has helped me understand Mags reaction to Mr I am a cyclist, his car was closer than what appears on the screen


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## yenrod (20 Sep 2007)

i get that occassionally = *'too far out'* in fact quite a lot...you know when you are when A: the driver can't get passed B: they look in the mirror, once passed OR C: they don't bother going past you just through you or soo close its taking the piss and warrants a little word.

I can see why you did it Mag' - things can get pretty stupid on the orads because the car driver is not totally able to see things like we can...as much as Its fun its ****ing irritating !


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## bonj2 (21 Sep 2007)

> That colleague of mine who wasn't confident on the roads was telling me about his latest cycling lesson last night.
> 
> His instructor had him practicing junctions. The instructor said that it's essential that at a juction you are in control of your road. His advice was to take a left turning/roundabout exit in the middle of the road, as you need to anticipate the possibility of a parked car being around the bend. If you're out in the road you are minimising the risk of a following car trying to overtake, while also removing the possibility of you finding yourself stuck behind a parked car with nowhere to go.



I _still_ think people should have actors deliberately doing dodgy overtakes to see how they handle it.


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## magnatom (21 Sep 2007)

bonj said:


> I _still_ think people should have actors deliberately doing dodgy overtakes to see how they handle it.




Whats the point. There are plenty of real dodgy overtakes so no need to fabricate new ones. 

Have you worked out which bit of the road is the dirty bit yet?


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## Cab (21 Sep 2007)

Had two blokes in a white van yell abuse at me today. All I'd done was stayed in the middle of the road and not let them overtake for a while, and I only did that because parked cars on either side were bumper to bumper, the road was littered with speed humps and it was neither safe nor convenient for them to pass. They tried to overtake while I was in strong primary behind another car at the junction at the end of the road, they had a good look at overtaking as I kept primary at the two blind corners before that junction, and when I let them pass (first safe opportunity to do so) they unleashed a torrent of abuse. I'll admit that I responded with a simple "You're £uc4ing idiots, get off the road!".

Thing is, you do all the right things and you get abuse. You don't do the right thing you'll get less abuse, but you'll be far more in danger due to people overtaking dangerously.


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## Brock (21 Sep 2007)

magnatom said:


> I'm soory you still think that. I can't understand how you can say his manouver was fine when he went in the wrong lane on the roundabout with the aim of overtaking. That is bad driving full stop.
> 
> Answer just one question, if he did this on his driving test would he fail? If the answer is yes, then this was bad driving.
> 
> ...



I think we probably will. The driver might well be at fault, but we don't see it from his point of view. I can't understand why you wouldn't stay in primary throughout the roundabout. Cutting in close to the kerb at the exit is practically begging drivers to whizz past, which would've been fine except that you then pull right back out again, which forces the overtaking driver almost over in to the oncoming traffic.
I'm not saying the driver was entirely correct, but I am suggesting that if you'd taken the roundabout in the manner described in Cyclecraft the situation wouldn't have happened.


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## gambatte (21 Sep 2007)

The sign of a good driver is anticipation and awareness of your surroundings
Seems to me an experienced driver should have spotted 2 cyclists in front of him. He should also have spotted the rear one was considerably faster and anticipated the overtake.

Whatever IMO he had plenty of time to apply the brakes, but instead decided to continue the manouvre in a fashion which took him (illegally?) over the central chevrons to perform a double overtake.


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## Brock (21 Sep 2007)

I agree, a good driver who is paying attention will be able to negotiate his way safely round a cyclist, however erratically they're cycling. Don't know why we bother with Cyclecraft at all.


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## BentMikey (21 Sep 2007)

You laugh, but erratic and newbie cyclists tend to get far more room than experienced looking cyclists, as well as a lot of comments about how "dangerous" they are. Safety can be completely contrary to what common sense expects.


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## Cab (21 Sep 2007)

Giving a little wobble, trying to look a bit dodgy, is a good way of getting more space sometimes. And I think it has been established that if you're competent looking in a helmet you get passed far more closely.


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## Abitrary (21 Sep 2007)

I'm not afraid of death.

Well that's my attitude and it comes across in my cycling and possibly personal life.

Noone crosses me. I've never had a run in with a motorist yet.

Just keep eye contact and repeat the mantra

'One sock is shorter than the other. Doesn't make me more agile than my lover'


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## Road Fiddler (22 Sep 2007)

BentMikey said:


>




Sorry guys a little of subject.

Bent in your film above i take it you were on your fixie?

Did you lock the rear wheel and slide it in a nice cool arcing skid around the front of the bus to impress the all the girls before getting the VRN


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## Terminator (22 Sep 2007)

"A member of parliament, Kate Hoey, actually admits to using her car as a weapon to bully and intimidate cyclists off the roads and onto dangerous, ill-thought out cycle lanes:"

Does not surprise me in the slightest.Had it with a bus on the way home today tried to intimidate me but I stood my ground.


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## Brock (22 Sep 2007)

> Funnily enough, when I did my cycling proficiency test (I was about 9 or 10) they sent us around the block as the final test, and had people hidden to jump out at us.



Same here! Must've been 1978, wish I still had the badge.


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## col (22 Sep 2007)

Brock said:


> Same here! Must've been 1978, wish I still had the badge.



Cant remember much about mine,but endles cones and zig zagging through them,and right turns all the time.If you did have that badge,i bet it would be a collectors thing now.


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## Brock (22 Sep 2007)

There's one going here on ebay, I'd be tempted to bid except that it wouldn't be _the one_ that I earned when I was seven.


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## col (22 Sep 2007)

Brock said:


> There's one going here on ebay, I'd be tempted to bid except that it wouldn't be _the one_ that I earned when I was seven.




I know what you mean,looking at the link,i remember the badge well,again i dont have mine either.But i have my bronze silver and gold medals for swimming when i was only eight,and the certificates too.I dont think they give these sort anymore.


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## Terminator (22 Sep 2007)

col said:


> Cant remember much about mine,but endles cones and zig zagging through them,and right turns all the time.If you did have that badge,i bet it would be a collectors thing now.




I've still got my certificate from 1977.

(well a copy)


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## starseven (22 Sep 2007)

Brock said:


> There's one going here on ebay, I'd be tempted to bid except that it wouldn't be _the one_ that I earned when I was seven.



I want that!!!


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## col (22 Sep 2007)

starseven said:


> I want that!!!




Is that your bid on it?


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## Terminator (22 Sep 2007)

Christ I had something like that many moons ago.

Dont want it again though.There was an advanced cycling proficiency test that I didnt take.Wonder what the badge looked like.


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## BentMikey (22 Sep 2007)

Road Fiddler said:


> Sorry guys a little of subject.
> 
> Bent in your film above i take it you were on your fixie?
> 
> Did you lock the rear wheel and slide it in a nice cool arcing skid around the front of the bus to impress the all the girls before getting the VRN





LMAO!!! I wish, I'm not that good on the bike. I would have done on my skates though.


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## starseven (23 Sep 2007)

Account suspended for selling a lucky stone , cant bid


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## Brock (23 Sep 2007)

Bar mounted disc ones??
I'm sure in the eighties you got these ones didn't you?
I think his claim of '60s' is a bit dubious though. Sure they didn't have cycling proficiency till mid 70s. Have we gone a bit off topic here?
errr...
Magnatom, bloody hell, you nearly crashed into that poor car! etc.


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## col (23 Sep 2007)

Brock said:


> Bar mounted disc ones??
> I'm sure in the eighties you got these ones didn't you?
> I think his claim of '60s' is a bit dubious though. Sure they didn't have cycling proficiency till mid 70s. Have we gone a bit off topic here?
> errr...
> Magnatom, bloody hell, you nearly crashed into that poor car! etc.




Im not sure about the year it started,but i can remember my brother doing some sort of cycling test when we were at Raf Cranwell,i would have been about five at the time,this will have been around 67/68, cos we were getting our sheets of orange reflective cardboard that had string to put your arms in,for winter nights coming home from school,and the tufty club was on the go too i think?


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## magnatom (24 Sep 2007)

Brock said:


> Magnatom, bloody hell, you nearly crashed into that poor car! etc.



Car, what car.........**^&^&*^ Oh that car!

This morning was a wonderful ride. It's a bank holiday in Glasgow (although I'm working ) On Crow Road going toward the Clyde tunnel I had a wonderful moment, when I could see no cars (or people anywhere). It felt a bit like 28 days later....


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## John the Monkey (24 Sep 2007)

Road Fiddler said:


> Bloody hell this thread has moved on.
> 
> When i first watched Mags video i didn't see much of a problem, as someone else said i thought he was slightly over reacting but i had my new cam on the back of my bike today and was overtaken very close by a car whilst i was over taking a couple of cyclists, he was so close i had to move my bars into the space behind his wing mirror to give the other cyclist room. When i looked back at the footage it looks as if there is sheds of room.



I'd assume that the lenses on the cameras are fairly wide in terms of focal length on these (they are on most fixed focus still cameras, in any case) so they will make gaps appear larger, I think.

(My knowledge is based only on my experience of wide angles (short focal lengths) in still photography, so I could be wrong.)


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## magnatom (25 Sep 2007)

I just thought I would let you know that I have removed this video from youtube. Although this guy did act like a bully and hit his horn as he went past, it really wasn't the worst driving I've seen. So as I am sure this guy is probably just a normal Joe and I don't think anyone who commits a minor infringement deserves to be punished for ever (not that I posted it as punishment), and as he was easily recognisable, I decided to remove the video. 

However, don't be fooled by this kind gesture. If someone does something like this to me again, I will post the video. You have been warned....


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## BentMikey (25 Sep 2007)

Don't mistake magnatom's kindness for weakness?

Do you think I should remove the scary bus overtake video from my videos in the same light, or leave it there?


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## magnatom (25 Sep 2007)

BentMikey said:


> Don't mistake magnatom's kindness for weakness?
> 
> Do you think I should remove the scary bus overtake video from my videos in the same light, or leave it there?




Why the question mark on the first statement? 

It really doesn't bother me if it stays there, but I just think it has served its purpose and as it identifies the chap I thought it best to make it temporary. I had always intended to keep it so, and unless I come across a right barsteward who really deserves it then I will always remove identifying clips after a while. 

I think yours should stay BentMikey. It doesn't identify anyone so it just serves as an example of what can happen when a bus driver makes an error (they don't all do this I might add!!).


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## domtyler (25 Sep 2007)

Cor blimey, didn't know you were so easily bullied into backing down MangaTom!


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## magnatom (25 Sep 2007)

domtyler said:


> Cor blimey, didn't know you were so easily bullied into backing down MangaTom!



No, I'm just a nice guy with a cute smile . 

No backing down. Point made and no point in labouring it. Even convicted criminals get let out after a while!


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## Brock (25 Sep 2007)

Funnily enough I got honked at by some humpadink in a 4x4 today, as I was overtaking another cyclist. I had checked behind and saw him some distance behind so made my maneuver , but I suppose he felt that I didn't cut back in quick enough and so held him up for 3 seconds or something.
It does make you cross doesn't it.


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## Road Fiddler (25 Sep 2007)

Bent i think you should leave yours, your guy could not have gave a dam what he did. Mags guy was good enough to pull over and he also had his say on YT, i have a feeling he will act differently in future. Job well done Mags and i hope you dont think my comments were being to harsh, i was just trying to highlight both perspectives.


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## Brock (25 Sep 2007)

Road Fiddler said:


> Bent i think you should leave yours, your guy could not have gave a dam what he did. Mags guy was good enough to pull over and he also had his say on YT, i have a feeling he will act differently in future. Job well done Mags and i hope you dont think my comments were being to harsh, i was just trying to highlight both perspectives.



Ditto


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## magnatom (26 Sep 2007)

Of course I have no hard feelings! I put these videos up knowing fine well that people would have different points of view. If you have a reasonable argument then who am I to complain (actually I might a little ). 

Seriously though I learn by putting these up and I hope others do to. In real life I am a bit of a joker and I shoot from the hip. I am therefore willing to accept hip shooting back!

When I get a chance another video will be appearing today (I am having a bit of a time of it at the moment!! )


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## magnatom (26 Feb 2008)

Idiot!! ! This same idiot just cut me up again today!  Unfortunately the batteries had run out on my camera, so I didn't catch todays driving, but just along from the original incident the same driver (and car) skimmed past me and pulled in right in front of me. 

If your ever in Glasgow keep an eye out for SB03AKY! 



(Sorry for bringing up an old thread!)


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## goo_mason (26 Feb 2008)

He's obviously targetting you


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## domtyler (26 Feb 2008)

Well you must know his route then.


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## BentMikey (26 Feb 2008)

Sounds like he's just another sub-standard driver to me. I'll bet he thinks he's above average too, LOLOL!!!


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## Terminator (26 Feb 2008)

Im not going to Glasgow if I can help it.


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## Eat MY Dust (26 Feb 2008)

Terminator said:


> Im not going to Glasgow if I can help it.



lol, I couldn't agree more. Some guy in a Clio is the least of Glasgows worries!!


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## magnatom (26 Feb 2008)

Eat MY Dust said:


> lol, I couldn't agree more. Some guy in a Clio is the least of Glasgows worries!!



Actually I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. Every major city has it's problems, but Glasgow has a lot going for it. Plenty of culture, nightlife, proximity to some wonderful countryside, cheap living costs etc. 

I'm a born and bred Glaswegian, but I know many many others who have moved here from elsewhere and loved it. I have honestly yet to find anyone who has lived in both Glasgow and Edinburgh who would prefer to live in Edinburgh. (No offence intended as Edinburgh in itself is a nice city. I have just not met anyone who prefers it to Glasgow )

If you haven't been here recently, try it some time!


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## gambatte (26 Feb 2008)

magnatom said:


> Actually I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. Every major city has it's problems, but Glasgow has a lot going for it. Plenty of culture



So has a Petri dish???


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## magnatom (26 Feb 2008)

gambatte said:


> So has a Petri dish???


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## Eat MY Dust (27 Feb 2008)

magnatom said:


> (No offence intended as Edinburgh in itself is a nice city. I have just not met anyone who prefers it to Glasgow )



You must be having a laugh!! It makes my skin crawl to go any further west than Bathgate!!

Someone told me a Glasgow themed cycling joke:

when do you know a Glaswegian has stolen a bike?............He's riding it.


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## magnatom (27 Feb 2008)

Eat MY Dust said:


> You must be having a laugh!! It makes my skin crawl to go any further west than Bathgate!!
> 
> Someone told me a Glasgow themed cycling joke:
> 
> when do you know a Glaswegian has stolen a bike?............He's riding it.



Ahm gona get the squad oan you bud!


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