# Meet the Sub Humans



## Angelfishsolo (20 Jun 2011)

Video removed as it was causing too much hastle.


----------



## Gixxerman (20 Jun 2011)

Sadly we get them near me as well, riding round the forrests and bridleways here and making very deep ruts that make it all but impossible to ride down them as your peddles keep catching the ground. We also get the out-road 4x4 jerks as well.

The soundtrack to your video is strange - is something catching on your tyres ;-)


----------



## Angelfishsolo (20 Jun 2011)

I posted it because about an hour later I had an off due to a Motorcycle wheel rut which caused me superficial damage (scraped on knees, chest and arm) but tore my BioRacer Gillette 

On re-listening to the sound track you do have a point 


Gixxerman said:


> Sadly we get them near me as well, riding round the forrests and bridleways here and making very deep ruts that make it all but impossible to ride down them as your peddles keep catching the ground. We also get the out-road 4x4 jerks as well.
> 
> The soundtrack to your video is strange - is something catching on your tyres ;-)


----------



## lukesdad (21 Jun 2011)

Got an axe to grind have you ? Motor cyclists have access to many RUPPs and ROWs in the countryside,and use them responsibly Trail Riders Fellowship etc.

I dont think you would like to be tarred with the same brush as some of the cyclists you meet week in week out would you?


----------



## Angelfishsolo (21 Jun 2011)

Maybe in your area, not in mine. See the following post from Community Safety Partnership. The sections in red are most pertinent.

*Christmas Poster Campaign*​ ​ 2008 The campaign to protect the countryside and curb the illegal use of off-road vehicles continues, with new signage to make it crystal clear that offenders are not welcome. Rhondda Cynon Taff’s Community Safety Partnership is putting up signage along paths, tracks and bridleways in a bid to keep offenders out. The signs were introduced after some off-roaders who were stopped by enforcement agencies claimed they thought they could use the tracks, paths and bridleways as they were marked on Ordnance Survey maps. However, there is now no cause for concerns as the bright signs make it clear where vehicles are banned – even if they are taxed, insured and roadworthy. _*Areas where such tracks are being used – even by those who feel they have a legal right to be there – continue to be patrolled as part of the regular enforcement exercises being held by South Wales Police, Rhondda Cynon Taff Council’s Off-Road Vehicle Team and partners such as the Forestry Commission and South Wales Fire and Rescue Service. *_ _* John Lusardi, Off Road Vehicle Coordinator, said: “The signs were introduced as it was clear some riders were confused** as to the legal status of the Tracks / Bridleways. In certain locations the sign are monitored, and illegal removal of the signs will be treated as criminal damage and prosecutions will occur as a result.*_ _* “It should now be crystal clear to them that, even if their vehicles are legal and roadworthy, they still cannot use the open spaces of this county as an outdoor sports track. *_ _* “The simple fact remains that there are very few areas where such vehicles can be used legally in Rhondda Cynon Taff. *_ _* “There were some areas marked on maps that riders mistakenly assumed they could use, but our new signs now make it clear they cannot. *_ _* “Continued public information and warning forms part of our ongoing campaign to remove the blight of illegal off road vehicles from our countryside and communities.*_ “Partnership patrols and enforcements continue and we urge the public to continue to work with us to deal with this issue. The message to riders is there is very little point in coming here to use our spaces, as it is not allowed. Instead, use should be made of legal facilities, such as the track in Cardiff.” Inspector Richard Erskine, who heads Community Safety in Rhondda Cynon Taff for South Wales Police, added: “Off road vehicles continue to be a top concern for our communities and, therefore, a priority for the Community Safety Partnership. “We want to make sure all are crystal clear on our zero tolerance policy in Rhondda Cynon Taff and the new signs assist that. “Riders need to get the message that our county is not one large track for them to offend in with their vehicles. It is illegal and anti social and operations will continue to identify and apprehend those who offend.”​* Frequently asked Questions *
2008 
* Your off road motorcycle questions answered *
Over the last few months there have been a number of Police operations on illegal off road scrambling, resulting in a number of bikes being seized. “Rhondda Cynon Taf Council would like to advise anyone who is thinking of investing in an off road motorbike to have a read through some of the questions and answers below,” commented Councillor Paul Cannon, Joint Chair of the Community Safety Partnership. Whether it’s a Quad Bike, Moto Cross Machine or a Mini Motto, Rhondda Cynon Taf Council’s Off Road Motorcycle Coordinator has the answer to all your questions; for example, availability of places to ride legally, registration and transport. If you have any further questions or queries, please contact the Off Road Motorcycle Coordinator on *07747 485 770* _* · **Where can I ride legally?*_ _* ~On a private facility with the owners permission (there may be environmental issues involved here. Also if bikes are causing a nuisance –which includes noise, riders can still be warned under the police reform act and possibly still have their bike seized. *_ _* ~A registered off road event *_ _* ~Vehicle rights of way (Bike has to meet all legal requirements i.e. Tax / Insurance / M.O.T / Registered.) *_ · *Do I need road tax / insurance / driving licence to ride off road?* Yes, you need to have tax, insurance and license on any land that the public have access to. This can be either a formal rights of way, or under the Countryside Rights of Way Act (CROW). It is illegal to ride on any footpath or bridle path even with tax, insurance etc. 
 *Can I register a Moto cross bike with the D.V.L.A? - YES*
 
 *Can I register a Quad bike with the D.V.L.A?*
 Yes. 
 *Would it be better to register the bike / quad, before taking it from the shop?*
 This will depend on the circumstances regarding use. 
 _*If my bike / quad is registered and legal can I ride on forestry roads etc?*_
 _* No, as even with Forestry roads, the Forestry Commission will not give access to off road motorbikes for pleasure purposes. *_ 
 *Are there any off road clubs in R.C.T district? And Can I join them?*
 Yes. Please contact the off road coordinator or any motorcycle shop for further details. 
 *Are there any competitions I can enter with regards to MX etc?*
 Yes most weekends. 
 *Is it legal to push my MX bike on the road or pavement?*
 NO unless it has Road tax / Insurance / M.O.T. / Driving licence. 
 _*Can I ride legally on the mountains, if I transport my bike there in a van or on a trailer?*_
 _* NO unless it’s on vehicle rights of way, and the bike has to meet all legal requirements. *_ 
 *Is it ok to ride on old colliery tips / sites etc?*
 * NO you are trespassing, unless you own the site. * 
 *Are there any other information sites I can use?*
 YES, look on the Internet for sites, i.e. A.C.U. / A.M.C.A 
 *Can I ride my bike / quad on Common ground?*
 NO 
 *Do I need to wear a crash helmet?*
 It is a legal requirement to wear a crash helmet unless on private land. However, we would advise you to always wear a helmet in the interest of safety. 
 *If I cant get a bike or quad to a legal site, should I purchase the bike?*
 It would *not* be advisable, unless your going to ride in Moto Cross or Enduro / Trials competitions, or get the bike / Quad, road legal. For information contact – 07747485770. 


lukesdad said:


> Got an axe to grind have you ? Motor cyclists have access to many RUPPs and ROWs in the countryside,and use them responsibly Trail Riders Fellowship etc.
> 
> I dont think you would like to be tarred with the same brush as some of the cyclists you meet week in week out would you?


----------



## lukesdad (21 Jun 2011)

Your video is of a group of trail riders the bikes are plated and taxed they have as much right to be there as you do. If you are going to post with outrageous titles at least get your facts and content straight before you do.


----------



## Angelfishsolo (21 Jun 2011)

They were on forestry land - 

 _*If my bike / quad is registered and legal can I ride on forestry roads etc?*_
 _* No, as even with Forestry roads, the Forestry Commission will not give access to off road motorbikes for pleasure purposes. 

I did get my facts straight.
*_


lukesdad said:


> Your video is of a group of trail riders the bikes are plated and taxed they have as much right to be there as you do. If you are going to post with outrageous titles at least get your facts and content straight before you do.


----------



## lukesdad (21 Jun 2011)

Looked like they were on the road to me, and as to forestry land plenty of rights of way bisect them which they are perfectly entitled to use.

Before you start attacking off road motorcyclists, perhaps you should consider this, a lot of rights of way are open because of them. They were there a long time before mtbs and have done more campaigning to keep them open than any other group.

In another life I used to be a right of way officer for a group of motor cycle clubs. I spent hundreds of hours in council offices studying maps and talking with council officers, this involved proof of use blocked access restriction lifting etc. etc.

May come as a shock to you, but the ramblers association is a much bigger threat if they had their way all ROW would be footpaths then youd have nowhere to ride your bike.

IMO horse riders create much more damage to ROW. I ride horses too.

There is room for everybody but unfortunately you will always get the selfish ones,such as yourself who just make trouble for everyone.


----------



## lukesdad (21 Jun 2011)

Angelfishsolo said:


> They were on forestry land -
> 
> _*If my bike / quad is registered and legal can I ride on forestry roads etc?*_
> _* No, as even with Forestry roads, the Forestry Commission will not give access to off road motorbikes for pleasure purposes.
> ...



No you havn t a forestry road is not a right of way !


----------



## lukesdad (21 Jun 2011)

The clue is in your own highlighted area about vehicluar rights of way.

May I suggest that if you are going to shoot Vids with your shiny new toy a la commuting, you dont leave evidence to hang yourself.

Also when posting biased views about other countryside users Ill repeat get your facts straight.

By the way the Gap route you so love riding would not exsist without historical Vehicluar routes. As would lots of others.

Ponder on that for a moment.


----------



## Angelfishsolo (21 Jun 2011)

I guess that is why they employed a tractor to break open the access gate and that the Sgnt in charge of Forest Watch is wrong as well. 


lukesdad said:


> No you havn t a forestry road is not a right of way !


----------



## Angelfishsolo (21 Jun 2011)

The Gap is now not legally accessable to any unauthorised motorised vehicals. All facts validated by Police and Forestry Commission.
Ponder this. Drink driving used not to be an offence. Should it have remained that way?


lukesdad said:


> The clue is in your own highlighted area about vehicluar rights of way.
> 
> May I suggest that if you are going to shoot Vids with your shiny new toy a la commuting, you dont leave evidence to hang yourself.
> 
> ...


----------



## lukesdad (21 Jun 2011)

Angelfishsolo said:


> I guess that is why they employed a tractor to break open the access gate and that the Sgnt in charge of Forest Watch is wrong as well.



.....and you can pin that on the group you filmed can you ? ......No, I thought not.


----------



## lukesdad (21 Jun 2011)

Angelfishsolo said:


> The Gap is now not legally accessable to any unauthorised motorised vehicals. All facts validated by Police and Forestry Commission.
> Ponder this. Drink driving used not to be an offence. Should it have remained that way?




Read my comment on the Gap route again would you ? paying particular note to the word histrorical ta.


----------



## Angelfishsolo (21 Jun 2011)

Actually I can. That footage is with police and I have been asked not to post it.


lukesdad said:


> .....and you can pin that on the group you filmed can you ? ......No, I thought not.


----------



## Angelfishsolo (21 Jun 2011)

I did note the historical bit. That's why I ref'd drink driving. Also why do you think access is no longer permitted to these motorised vehicals?


lukesdad said:


> Read my comment on the Gap route again would you ? paying particular note to the word histrorical ta.


----------



## lukesdad (21 Jun 2011)

Angelfishsolo said:


> Actually I can. That footage is with police and I have been asked not to post it.



Words fail me ! Not only have you gone against the wishes of the police, you ve become Judge and Jury too.


----------



## lukesdad (21 Jun 2011)

Angelfishsolo said:


> I did note the historical bit. That's why I ref'd drink driving. Also why do you think access is no longer permitted to these motorised vehicals?



I know why ? But I d like to hear your colourful version.


----------



## Angelfishsolo (21 Jun 2011)

I was asked not to post footage of the gate being Tractored open. I have not done so. Anything else?


lukesdad said:


> Words fail me ! Not only have you gone against the wishes of the police, you ve become Judge and Jury too.


----------



## Angelfishsolo (21 Jun 2011)

It is simply because of the rise in illegal off road machine usage. Next?


lukesdad said:


> I know why ? But I d like to hear your colourful version.


----------



## lukesdad (21 Jun 2011)

Angelfishsolo said:


> I was asked not to post footage of the gate being Tractored open. I have not done so. Anything else?




So let me get this straight. You took a Vid. of a tractor pulling a gate down then you rode up the road and took a vid of a group of motorcyclists who were just hanging about while the tractor did this REG plates in full view to the world,did you ?....and then layed the blame at their door.

Pull the other one its got bells on it.

The gap has been closed to unauthorised traffic due to erosion , Also its a temporary order.


----------



## Angelfishsolo (21 Jun 2011)

No. The tractor (not bearing a number plate) the broke chain on the gate and drove off as I was approaching from other side of a main road. The motorcycles drove through opened gate. I passed them where they had congregated to "possibly" wait for others.

The Gap is closed perminatly to off road vehicles unless a current court case is won. 



lukesdad said:


> So let me get this straight. You took a Vid. of a tractor pulling a gate down then you rode up the road and took a vid of a group of motorcyclists who were just hanging about while the tractor did this REG plates in full view to the world,did you ?....and then layed the blame at their door.
> 
> Pull the other one its got bells on it.
> 
> The gap has been closed to unauthorised traffic due to erosion , Also its a temporary order.


----------



## lukesdad (21 Jun 2011)

Angelfishsolo said:


> No. The tractor (not bearing a number plate) the broke chain on the gate and drove off as I was approaching from other side of a main road. The motorcycles drove through opened gate. I passed them where they had congregated to "possibly" wait for others.
> 
> The Gap is closed perminatly to off road vehicles unless a current court case is won.



They needed a tractor to break a chain ?


----------



## Angelfishsolo (21 Jun 2011)

Apparently so.


lukesdad said:


> They needed a tractor to break a chain ?


----------



## lukesdad (21 Jun 2011)

Temporary order then


----------



## Angelfishsolo (21 Jun 2011)

No a permanent order that is under appeal. Pretty sure they are different?


lukesdad said:


> Temporary order then


----------



## DrSquirrel (21 Jun 2011)

I am confused, there is something missing here...

Do they have ROW there? (grid ref?)

And why would you need to pull open a gate, in a location where you are allowed to ride? Surely it should be open...


----------



## lukesdad (21 Jun 2011)

If its sub judicy its temporary.


----------



## lukesdad (21 Jun 2011)

Any of these orders can be overturned. or changed. Only acts of parliament can close them permanantly.


----------



## Angelfishsolo (21 Jun 2011)

OK thank you for that. The gate was locked preventing access so that tells me access was not permitted.


lukesdad said:


> Any of these orders can be overturned. or changed. Only acts of parliament can close them permanantly.


----------



## benb (21 Jun 2011)

Angelfish, can I clarify that I understand what happened:


You saw and filmed a tractor pulling open a locked gate which was preventing access to the land
The bikers rode though straight behind, and congregated
There is a court order prohibiting unauthorised motorised access
Can someone explain why lukesdad is defending them?


----------



## Angelfishsolo (21 Jun 2011)

The court order refers to another section of trail that is under dispute. It has no bearing on the video.

I have no idea why Lukesdad is defending them?


benb said:


> Angelfish, can I clarify that I understand what happened:
> 
> 
> You saw and filmed a tractor pulling open a locked gate which was preventing access to the land
> ...


----------



## lukesdad (21 Jun 2011)

benb said:


> Angelfish, can I clarify that I understand what happened:
> 
> 
> You saw and filmed a tractor pulling open a locked gate which was preventing access to the land
> ...



Have you seen the video he s made private ?


----------



## Angelfishsolo (21 Jun 2011)

Have I?????


lukesdad said:


> Have you seen the video he s made private ?


----------



## lukesdad (21 Jun 2011)

Someone has ?


----------



## Angelfishsolo (21 Jun 2011)

Well I have just signed out of youtube, flushed the cache et al and I can still watch it.


lukesdad said:


> Someone has ?


----------



## lukesdad (21 Jun 2011)

benb said:


> Angelfish, can I clarify that I understand what happened:
> 
> 
> You saw and filmed a tractor pulling open a locked gate which was preventing access to the land
> ...




There is no tractor in the vid no gate no nothing just some bikers by the side of the road they dont need to be defended. Not even a track or forestry road.

You re making assumptions as usual without knowing what has even happened.


----------



## benb (21 Jun 2011)

lukesdad said:


> There is no tractor in the vid no gate no nothing just some bikers by the side of the road they dont need to be defended. Not even a track or forestry road.
> 
> You re making assumptions as usual without knowing what has even happened.



I don't see any reason to think that Angelfish is making it up.


----------



## Angelfishsolo (21 Jun 2011)

Thank you Benb.


benb said:


> I don't see any reason to think that Angelfish is making it up.


----------



## lukesdad (21 Jun 2011)

benb said:


> I don't see any reason to think that Angelfish is making it up.




Well the events have been drip fed since the original post. Dont you find it strange that local plod has the footage of the alleged act taking place with a tractor with no number plate. Yet leaves the footage of the alleged orchestraters with faces and reg plates in full view in the hands of the OP. Surely vital for ID purposes.

Come on ?


----------



## Zoiders (21 Jun 2011)

I live near a council depot and I have seen a tractor used to shunt the gates open before now, this is mostly when people lose the key, locks that get left over winter can often seize up as well. If the land owner has given permision and agreed to meet the motorbike users at the gate to let them in then I don't see the offence myself.

I find it a bit of a stretch that a group of cross riders brough their own tractor to shunt the gates open with.


----------



## benb (21 Jun 2011)

lukesdad said:


> Well the events have been drip fed since the original post. Dont you find it strange that local plod has the footage of the alleged act taking place with a tractor with no number plate. Yet leaves the footage of the alleged orchestraters with faces and reg plates in full view in the hands of the OP. Surely vital for ID purposes.
> 
> Come on ?



I concede that it's possible Angelfish was mistaken (i.e. it may have been the landowner opening the gates), but can't see a reason for you to imply that he's making it up, as you seem to be.


----------



## DrSquirrel (21 Jun 2011)

I think this thread should be discontinued unless the video is shown and a point made (which in the first post, there was none?).


----------

