# breaking News!!! Pharmstrong case closed



## beastie (3 Feb 2012)

Well I think that is a bit of a surprise!

http://espn.go.com/olympics/cycling...ose-lance-armstrong-doping-case-press-charges

Sorry for the big link but the link tab ain't working.


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## Flying_Monkey (3 Feb 2012)

It's not that surprising really. Tracks seem to have been pretty thoroughly covered.


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## Crackle (3 Feb 2012)

Flying_Monkey said:


> It's not that surprising really. Tracks seem to have been pretty thoroughly covered.


Not surprised, really? I was surprised when they started it and am equally surprised now.


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## Keith Oates (4 Feb 2012)

I'm happy with the outcome but no doubt it will not stop the comments by the detractors!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## raindog (4 Feb 2012)

This is what Betsy Andreu had to say
""Our legal system failed us," she said. "This is what happens when you have a lot of money and you can buy attorneys who have people in high places in the Department of Justice."

And it's probably not over yet.....
"The case may not be concluded for Armstrong, however, as the US Anti-doping Agency (USADA) has announced that it is "looking forward to obtaining the information" which was gathered through the grand jury investigation.
CEO of USADA, Travis Tygart indicated that today's decision by the US Attorney may help his agency pursue Armstrong on doping violations..
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/lance-armstrong-inquiry-concludes-with-no-charges-filed


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## yello (4 Feb 2012)

Has the fat lady sung? In so far as criminal charges being brought perhaps but this isn't over yet. I hope USADA move master than Armstrong on dope USFDA!

Whilst I can understand Betsy Andreu's disappointment (believe me, I can ), I wouldn't run so far as to suggest corrupt "people in high places". I'm sure there was pressure brought to bear 'up high' but I'm naive enough to believe that nobody was actually bought.


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## rich p (4 Feb 2012)

...and Bertie gets off in an unlikely win double?
If Ricco gets away with it I'll eat my helmet again.


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## Doseone (4 Feb 2012)

Personally I'm pleased, but then I admit I was a bit of a Lance fanboy.

Don't think the French will ever let this lie though.


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## yello (4 Feb 2012)

"the French"....... arrrrgh!!!

Believe me, there are as many fanboys as haterz in France!  That 'the French' thing is (yet another) Armstrong creation.

Perhaps there are more journalists with long memories here but, again, they're not exclusive to France.


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## raindog (4 Feb 2012)

Doseone said:


> Don't think the French will ever let this lie though.


WTF have "the French" got to do with it?

"The investigation into systematic doping within the team arose partly out of allegations made by former rider Floyd Landis in 2010.The federal government's interest arose from the possibility that doping programs, funded through government-supplied sponsorship dollars, could constitute fraud. The Food and Drug Adminstration's Jeff Novitzky was appointed to head up the investigation"


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## Doseone (4 Feb 2012)

raindog said:


> WTF have "the French" got to do with it?
> 
> "The investigation into systematic doping within the team arose partly out ofallegations made by former rider Floyd Landis in 2010.The federal government's interest arose from the possibility that doping programs, funded through government-supplied sponsorship dollars, could constitute fraud. The Food and Drug Adminstration'sJeff Novitzkywas appointed to head up the investigation"


 
So now the case is closed L'equipe will just let it lie will they?


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## rich p (4 Feb 2012)

Doseone said:


> So now the case is closed L'equipe will just let it lie will they?


 I can't see L'Equipe having much to add. The only hope of justice being done seems to lie with USADA.


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## Doseone (4 Feb 2012)

yello said:


> "the French"....... arrrrgh!!!
> 
> Believe me, there are as many fanboys as haterz in France!  That 'the French' thing is (yet another) Armstrong creation.
> 
> Perhaps there are more journalists with long memories here but, again, they're not exclusive to France.


 


raindog said:


> WTF have "the French" got to do with it?


 
Sorry, my post is an over generalisation. To be clear, I should have said certain sections of the French Press.


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## yello (4 Feb 2012)

So we've gone from "the French" to l'Equipe in 20 odd minutes... I call that progress!  (Edit: cross post, apology noted  )

But, yes, I'm sure that France's most famous sporting paper will have something to say. They're probably going to cover the 6 Nations as well.... and the NHL, NBA etc etc etc 

Whilst cycling is France's national sport, and the nation does love their TdF and cheeky chappy Tommy is a national hero, I'd say that at grass roots level that football and even basketball are more popular. I don't know others take on it but my gut feel is that there isn't really a _huge_ interest in pro cycling beyond the circus that is the TdF.

People in France might know the name 'Lance Armstrong' but he is held in as much adoration as he is in any other countries. His story resonates everywhere.


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## Doseone (4 Feb 2012)

Lance is a strange phenomenon really. He certainly polarizes opinion. If I really ask myself the question of why I choose to try and stick up for him on an internet forum I'm not sure I can give a valid answer. I of course don't know the guy and can only go by what I have read, press opinion, anecdote and hearsay etc, and TBH, I actually don't think I'd like him very much if I met him. He doesn't come across as a particularly nice person. I think Yello you have hit the nail on the head - he has a story which resonates, coupled with the fact that he was at the top of his sport for a number of years. I guess I like to believe in fairy stories.


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## dellzeqq (4 Feb 2012)

if Novitzky couldn't find anything there may not be anything to find.........


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## Noodley (4 Feb 2012)

The focus of the investigation "wasn't so much to prove whether any particular cyclist used drugs, but to determine if Armstrong and other team members violated federal conspiracy, fraud or racketeering charges"... which for me still leaves a huge amount of investigation options in relation to Armstrong having doped during his career.

Let's just wait and see...this ain't a 2 hour training ride investigation, it a Grand Tour investigation. 

I still believe he doped, and I cannot think why/how anyone who has read even 50% of the information available comes to any other conclusion.


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## yello (4 Feb 2012)

dellzeqq said:


> if Novitzky couldn't find anything there may not be anything to find.........


 
That is an entirely possible explanation. One I wouldn't for a moment dismiss. There could equally be corpses but no smoking gun. Equally possible is the 'weight of evidence' argument; that is, there are bits and pieces provable but nothing worthy of court time and expense - and I'm sure such balancing decisions are made, after considering lobbying pressures etc. I suspect we'll never know but it certainly wont stop the conjecture, in forums and the press.

re Armstrong, no man is ever one thing - saint or sinner. One can believe the story - be he doper or no, TdF winner or no - because it IS inspirational. That he and Livestrong do some practical good for cancer sufferers is undeniable. But none of that means he did or didn't dope.

Personally speaking, and total prejudice admitted, I wanted to see him jailed. I wanted there to be proof of trafficking, money laundering, fraud.... the whole shabang. I'll never be convinced it's not there, only that it wasn't found.

So clearly now I want USADA to find proof of doping. Truth be told, that's always been more my desire than any criminal charges.... those would have been just icing on the cake


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## Erratic (4 Feb 2012)

> Personally speaking, and total prejudice admitted, I wanted to see him jailed. I wanted there to be proof of trafficking, money laundering, fraud.... the whole shabang. I'll never be convinced it's not there, only that it wasn't found.


 
Fair enough, there has been a lot of information doing the rounds over the years which could certainly sway opinion. Hopefully the USADA investigation will be resolved quickly and fairly.


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## screenman (4 Feb 2012)

I am British and believe in the British way of innocent until proven guilty. Unlike many on here, let us hope we never get tried under their rules.


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## yello (4 Feb 2012)

There have been miscarriages of justice in Britain just as there is prejudice in Britain. I'm sufficiently worldly-wise to recognise that. I also recognise the rule of law.


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## Noodley (4 Feb 2012)

screenman said:


> I am British and believe in the British way of innocent until proven guilty. Unlike many on here, let us hope we never get tried under their rules.


 I tend to form my own opinions based on information available. You too can do likewise...


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## rich p (4 Feb 2012)

screenman said:


> I am British and believe in the British way of innocent until proven guilty. Unlike many on here, let us hope we never get tried under their rules.


 Ha!
We're not real prosecutors; it's an internet forum!

The huge amount of evidence that is in the public domain has persuaded many of us of LA's guilt in terms of cycling 'law' , i.e doping. Themachinations, political pressure and minutiae of US law wrt misuse of public funds is beyond most of us. Unlike Yello, I'd be more happy if LA was to be found guilty of doping rather than fraud and we're all entitled to an opinion on the weight of evidence. I suspect that you haven't followed the case for doping quite as closely and for quite so long as some of us on here.


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## Noodley (4 Feb 2012)

rich p said:


> Ha!
> We're not real prosecutors


 
So why am I sitting here with a grey wig and robes on?


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## rich p (4 Feb 2012)

Noodley said:


> So why am I sitting here with a grey wig and robes on?


 Now where is that piccie


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## Smokin Joe (4 Feb 2012)

Noodley said:


> So why am I sitting here with a grey wig and robes on?


You're waiting for Max Mosley to arrive?


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## Erratic (4 Feb 2012)

This post by inrng may be of interest to some.
http://inrng.com/2012/02/armstrong-vs-armstrong/


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## jdtate101 (4 Feb 2012)

I think Armstrong must be one of the most tested athletes on the planet, the number of investigations that have taken place and have been proven baseless. Whilst I can understand that he may have some friends in high places in the US, that doesn't hold true for the French judiciary who carried out extensive tests and re-tests on all his samples from two separate TDF's (plus many, many specimens from outside completion) and they found nothing.
Now given that they caught quite a few other's using EPO, the tests and procedures were proven for finding EPO, so if Armstrong did dope on EPO then either he had a totally unknown (and still unknown) to science way of doing it, or he just didn't dope. Given the medical and scientific advances (and that his samples are still on ice), and still nothing has been found would tend to suggest there is nothing to find.

This smacks of a witch-hunt after the fact, and quite frankly it's getting all a bit too old now. Let it be.

Now bertie is a different matter altogether.......


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## Danny (4 Feb 2012)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Tracks seem to have been pretty thoroughly covered.


Pun intended?


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## Noodley (4 Feb 2012)

jdtate101 said:


> I think Armstrong must be one of the most tested athletes on the planet, the number of investigations that have taken place and have been proven baseless. Whilst I can understand that he may have some friends in high places in the US, that doesn't hold true for the French judiciary who carried out extensive tests and re-tests on all his samples from two separate TDF's (plus many, many specimens from outside completion) and they found nothing.
> Now given that they caught quite a few other's using EPO, the tests and procedures were proven for finding EPO, so if Armstrong did dope on EPO then either he had a totally unknown (and still unknown) to science way of doing it, or he just didn't dope. Given the medical and scientific advances (and that his samples are still on ice), and still nothing has been found would tend to suggest there is nothing to find.
> 
> This smacks of a witch-hunt after the fact, and quite frankly it's getting all a bit too old now. Let it be.
> ...


 
There was an article written a few years ago which showed that LA was not only NOT the most tested athlete in the world but he was not even the most tested athlete in his house! (or something like that) It's just Lance spin. Also, if you want to look at test results you might want to consider digging a bit deeper...and consider how many 'non failed test' cyclists have admitted to using doping. And look at how many ex-team mates of LA have tested positive and/or spoken out. 

Just do a google search for "1999 Lance Doping"...that might be a good starting point.

I am not in the busines of witch-hunting for the sake of it, but if someone wears a pointy hat, has a black cat and rides on a broomstick then I'll quite gladly point and shout "burn the witch".

And this has nothing to do with the fact that he is an twat as well.


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## jdtate101 (4 Feb 2012)

Noodley said:


> There was an article written a few years ago which showed that LA was not only NOT the most tested athlete in the world but he was not even the most tested athlete in his house! (or something like that) It's just Lance spin. Also, if you want to look at test results you might want to consider digging a bit deeper...and consider how many 'non failed test' cyclists have admitted to using doping. And look at how many ex-team mates of LA have tested positive and/or spoken out.
> 
> Just do a google search for "1999 Lance Doping"...that might be a good starting point.
> 
> ...


 
But they do still have all his samples on file. Surely with modern science they could find the EPO in his samples if it were there? I'm not defending the man, as I also believe in the adage "If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and swims like a duck.....it's a duck!", however the evidence doesn't seem to be there, otherwise this would all be history by now. The random testing system is supposed to make hiding doping impossible, but any system can be beat, but the sheer number of samples he would have had to beat and avoid (given that it is random) makes it hard to question the process, and thus the result.


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## Crackle (4 Feb 2012)

jdtate101 said:


> But they do still have all his samples on file. Surely with modern science they could find the EPO in his samples if it were there? I'm not defending the man, as I also believe in the adage "If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and swims like a duck.....it's a duck!", however the evidence doesn't seem to be there, otherwise this would all be history by now. The random testing system is supposed to make hiding doping impossible, but any system can be beat, but the sheer number of samples he would have had to beat and avoid (given that it is random) makes it hard to question the process, and thus the result.


 
This is what Noodley was alluding too. It's clouded in controversy this one but as a pointer.....


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## rich p (5 Feb 2012)

jdtate101 said:


> I think Armstrong must be one of the most tested athletes on the planet, the number of investigations that have taken place and have been proven baseless. Whilst I can understand that he may have some friends in high places in the US, that doesn't hold true for the French judiciary who carried out extensive tests and re-tests on all his samples from two separate TDF's (plus many, many specimens from outside completion) and they found nothing.
> Now given that they caught quite a few other's using EPO, the tests and procedures were proven for finding EPO, so if Armstrong did dope on EPO then either he had a totally unknown (and still unknown) to science way of doing it, or he just didn't dope. Given the medical and scientific advances (and that his samples are still on ice), and still nothing has been found would tend to suggest there is nothing to find.
> 
> This smacks of a witch-hunt after the fact, and quite frankly it's getting all a bit too old now. Let it be.
> ...


 
If you think that the relatively few cyclists that have been nailed for EPO use, are the only ones who have used it and the rest were clean, then you are being more than a little naive!


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## screenman (5 Feb 2012)

I hope I never get some of you guys on a jury if I am ever accused of doing something I did not do.


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## resal (5 Feb 2012)

jdtate101 said:


> Now given that they caught quite a few other's using EPO, the tests and procedures were proven for finding EPO, so if Armstrong did dope on EPO then either he had a totally unknown (and still unknown) to science way of doing it, or he just didn't dope. Given the medical and scientific advances (and that his samples are still on ice), and still nothing has been found would tend to suggest there is nothing to find.


 
Ashenden's evidence was ruled out on a technicality. It was not false - just ruled out.

http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/michael-ashenden

Certainly for myself and many of those I know who have followed the "unbelievable" performance of Lance for 12 or so years, it is like the OJ case. So the Feds have not been able to touch him, but is he innocent ? Only somebody who has not bothered to research the story or who believes that the tooth fairy brings the sixpence, thinks he was able to do it on orange juice and mom's apple pie, whilst Tyler - "where's my twin", Floyd - "it woz the beer and whiskey that dun it", Jan - "I ate the pies", Basso - "look at my 5 year old, he is calling the dog, Fuentes - I have never heard of him" etc., all juiced up. Sadly we have known for many years who the winners were in the Tour and other races. As to who came first by following the rules, that is an entirely different thing.


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## gb155 (5 Feb 2012)

Get in, haters gonna hate


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## Noodley (5 Feb 2012)

Thanks for that contribution fanboy


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## Noodley (5 Feb 2012)

screenman said:


> I hope I never get some of you guys on a jury if I am ever accused of doing something I did not do.


 
I am sure we'd make the right decision based on the evidence presented.


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## yello (5 Feb 2012)

Back to that line eh screenman?

This is not a court, it's a forum where we discuss our subjective opinions. Can you honestly tell me that you live your life free of opinion? Or don't have an opinion contrary to an official position? Or is it simply a card you play when the going gets tough.

You think Armstrong is innocent, not a doper, I get that. Are you opposed to USADA trying to establish that?

Different subject, re the 'most tested athlete'; I read something that debunked that quite conclusively by looking at USADAs website and the public information there. As I recall, the swimmer Michael Phelps was tested more times in one year than Armstrong was during his TdF years - and that's just US athletes.

There is no list of 'worlds most tested athletes' to my knowledge - but I read some conjecture/anecdote that it was perhaps an Australian Aussie rules player that might take the 'worlds most' title! 

It's all spin. Say something often enough and people will believe it. Like 'the French hate him'.

I'm a relatively new 'hater' (and I'm not afraid to admit it). Up until a few years back, I didn't really give a damn either way. Curiosity made me read up on the subject. I wanted to know for myself quite why there was this ground swell of respected and knowledgeable people (and I don't mean only the good folk of this forum  ) that had cause to doubt. I simply couldn't form my own opinion until I educated myself. There are people out there with much more severe opinion than mine. For some, Armstrong is the devil incarnate. I just think he's a very naught boy! 

I don't buy into the Livestrong evil empire theories for instance. I don't think Livestrong does anything any more or less suspect than any other business. I have no doubt it's all above board and legal, and 'tax efficient'!

Oh, btw, rich, it's not important but, if I had to choose one or the other, I'd prefer Armstrong to be done as a doper rather than for fraud etc. As I said, for me as a hater, the latter would be icing on the cake!


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## rich p (5 Feb 2012)

screenman said:


> I hope I never get some of you guys on a jury if I am ever accused of doing something I did not do.


 Well we'd make the decision on the evidence, just as we have in this case, rather than relying on blind faith and fandom.


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## rich p (5 Feb 2012)

1711024 said:


> To be on the safe side though, if you would care to tell us what it is that you haven't done, we can them make sure to take that into account if the matter comes up.


 He's been guilty of blatant naivety which is a heinous crime on a forum whose lifeblood is subjective opinion and prejudice.


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## yello (5 Feb 2012)

I really do have to learn to chill out. I can be so sodding earnest sometimes!


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## Crackle (5 Feb 2012)

rich p said:


> He's been guilty of blatant naivety which is a heinous crime on a forum whose lifeblood is subjective opinion and prejudice.


 
Hey I object to that, informed prejudice if you don't mind, I devoted a lot of time to finding a hokey copy of Walsh's banned book on the interweb and even more paper printing it out and reading it.


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## raindog (7 Feb 2012)

perhaps we haven't quite heard the last of this

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/con...al-investigation-into-armstrong-and-us-postal


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## yello (7 Feb 2012)

^^^ that link is compulsory reading for anyone with even a vague interest in the saga.

You will be incredulous.

You have to ask, was the "one man" got to?


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## yello (7 Feb 2012)

just when I thought the circus was winding to a close! Who is scripting this? It's magnificent!


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## rich p (7 Feb 2012)

yello said:


> just when I thought the circus was winding to a close! Who is scripting this? It's magnificent!


 Who's going to play Armstrong in the film?
Geoff Novitsky will be played by Noodley of course


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## Alun (7 Feb 2012)

yello said:


> ^^^ that link is compulsory reading for anyone with even a vague interest in the saga.
> 
> You will be incredulous.
> 
> You have to ask, was the "one man" got to?


I read it, here's a few extracts.

NPR has alleged that _sources_ in the FBI, FDA and US Postal Service
According the NPR, _sources_ indicated that charges were close to being brought against a number of individuals
One _source_, NPR says, said there were ‘no weaknesses in the case’.
NPR also adds that _a person_ with knowledge of the decision
_Cyclingnews _spoke to _a source_ who had co-operated with the federal investigation. _The source_ indicated that the NPR reports held weight.
“I talked to _someone_ within the investigation

I have never seen so much speculation in one article before!
A US radio station has sources in the FBI, sources in the FDA and sources in the USPS, all involved in this particular investigation? Yeah right.
If they haven't nailed LA after all this time they aren't going to nail him now !


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## yello (7 Feb 2012)

I take it you never trust stories from 'sources' then? Or is it just this story?

Personally, I'm very interested in the attorney's response.


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## Noodley (7 Feb 2012)

I'm off to grab some beer and crisps...


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## lukesdad (7 Feb 2012)

Noodley said:


> I am sure we'd make the right decision based on the evidence presented.


Bollox would you


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## Little yellow Brompton (7 Feb 2012)

Noodley said:


> I am sure we'd make the right decision based on the evidence presented.


I'm not, Ive been on a jury!


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## Brahan (7 Feb 2012)

gb155 said:


> Get in, haters gonna hate


 
LOL

You don't have to hate him to still think he's guilty.


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## yello (7 Feb 2012)

Oh, but it helps!


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## montage (8 Feb 2012)

case closed my balls


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## gb155 (8 Feb 2012)

Brahan said:


> LOL
> 
> You don't have to hate him to still think he's guilty.


 

Lance isnt thought

Dirty Bertie however, is !!!!!!!


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## Noodley (8 Feb 2012)

lukesdad said:


> Bollox would you


 
True, just as well I am excluded from jury duty then!


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## montage (9 Feb 2012)

gb155 said:


> Lance isnt thought
> 
> Dirty Bertie however, is !!!!!!!


 
lance clean my balls


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## montage (9 Feb 2012)

I feel punctuation would assist my previous statement


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## gb155 (9 Feb 2012)

montage said:


> lance clean my balls


 

Kinky


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## raindog (9 Feb 2012)

yes, a comma in the right place can make all the difference sometimes


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## cyclegeek (9 Feb 2012)

the above post really tickled me. I really hope Lance did do it clean. I think it would be a huge blow to the sport and the fans if he is found guilty.


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## rich p (9 Feb 2012)

cyclegeek said:


> the above post really tickled me. I really hope Lance did do it clean. I think it would be a huge blow to the sport and the fans if he is found guilty.


 
Clean? Of course he used clean syringes


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## gb155 (9 Feb 2012)

Damn haters 



rich p said:


> Clean? Of course he used clean syringes


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## Crackle (9 Feb 2012)

gb155 said:


> Damn haters


 
Haterz, haterz, get it right.


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## gb155 (10 Feb 2012)

Ulrich and Bertie confirmed as Dirty

Lance, not so

Take that "Haterz"


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## montage (11 Feb 2012)

I guess that the plus side to Lance not being sanctioned is that Livestrong will not be as harmed by negative publicity as it has done a lot of people a lot of good. However, a cheat is a cheat, and even here in America, the common consensus amongst anybody with half a noggin is that he cheated. I was quite surprised, given the patriotism of the US, just how many people condemn him.

gb, the time for self denile is up. There is no more need to hide in the fan-boy closet, you should leave with your head held high and your eyes open to the truth. Once out of the closet, you will find the haterz side so much more providing and pleasurable....it is just so....right


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## Arrowfoot (11 Feb 2012)

I recall this story couple of years ago where a "shooting gallery" was uncovered where Australian olympic cyclists were training. There were used syringes strewn all around. On testing they were found to contain prohibited performance enhancing substances. I think someone was charged but the matter was dropped for the lack of evidence. 

This is not an indictment about the Aussies alone but the competitive world that we live in. The reality is that innocent until proven guilty is well and good but it does not take away the fact that there is a problem. 

This incident was an eyeopener. The amount of paraphenalia was not meant for one person, it was in a state facility and the manner of the mess indicated that people all around knew what was going on. 

The term "doping programme" is another telling point about how advanced this is. Its not just cycling but in a number of other sports as well. One might as well bury one's head in the sand. 

Lets not sit under a tree and wait for convictions in a court of law to occur to see that there is indeed a problem. It has gone past the stage where comments and words such as "detractors", "proven until "guilty", "British Law" ,"nothing has been proven" etc are relevant.

The issue is no longer if doping is rife, its who are the dumb ones who get caught. Its about teams and countries that do not have a proper doping programme.


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## Erratic (12 Feb 2012)

Lance Armstrong has just finshed the Panama Triathlon in second place - did well in the cycling.


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## Noodley (12 Feb 2012)

...and in other breaking news, Phil "The Power" Taylor comes runner-up in the local Pub Games night - did well in the darts.


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## lukesdad (12 Feb 2012)

Noodley said:


> ...and in other breaking news, Phil "The Power" Taylor comes runner-up in the local Pub Games night - did well in the darts.


Hope you were gracious, when he offered you his congratulations at the medal ceremony Noods.


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## Erratic (17 Feb 2012)

Interesting article from The Guardian sports blog about doping etc.
*Doping in cycling: Alberto Contador, science, the law and PR*

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2012/feb/16/doping-cycling-alberto-contador-science


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## Dave_1 (3 Mar 2012)

they made that decision to close the investigation because it was he said, she said type evidence and every team sells last season's fleet of bikes some way.......I don't have much faith in LA but am glad it is behind us


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