# Hill reps



## Scruffmonster (20 Dec 2012)

Hi,

I've entered L'etape next year and I'm looking for some advice.

I live in north Kent and I'm not really blessed with hills in the area. I know that I can get out to Toys Hill and it's neighbours at the weekend but I'm looking for something suitable to do repeats on that isn't 40 minutes away.

I'm just wondering what peoples experience is in terms of how long an effort needs to be, to be beneficial. I've lots of hill trainining experience as a runner, but there are more variables on the bike. As a broad stroke example, which of these two would be best?

20 repetitions of a 5% average grade that's 500 Metres (10km total)
6 repetitions of a 3.1% average grade that's 1600 Metres long (10km total)

Any and all suggestions welcome, but do stay within the parameters of the question. Responses of 'Move to Yorkshire for 6 months' or 'Neither' help me none.

Cheers

NB - I'm plenty fit enough to train. I'm Marathon training at the same time, hence the need to have a 30-45 minute cycle climb routine on my doorstep. I'm Time Poor.


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## black'n'yellow (20 Dec 2012)

You don't need to ride up hills to be good at riding up hills. No need for reps IMO. Just put in a series of repeated relatively high intensity rides of a similar duration in the few months leading up to your target event. you can do those on the flat or on a turbo.

Riding up hill is the same as riding on the flat, except you go slower for more effort. Train for the effort, not the incline.


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## Scruffmonster (20 Dec 2012)

black'n'yellow said:


> You don't need to ride up hills to be good at riding up hills. No need for reps IMO.
> 
> Riding up hill is the same as riding on the flat, except you go slower for more effort. Train for the effort, not the incline.


 
Is that the application of common sense or experience? (Both are highly valued)

For example, I used to be horrible at running downhill. I ran even paced and people regularly overtook me on XC meets. The only way I got better at that was by running downhill lots.

Are there enough technique/efficiency gains to be had from practising going up, to make dedicated sessions worth it, is the question I suppose.


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## Rob3rt (20 Dec 2012)

black'n'yellow said:


> You don't need to ride up hills to be good at riding up hills. No need for reps IMO. Just put in a series of repeated relatively high intensity rides of a similar duration in the few months leading up to your target event. you can do those on the flat or on a turbo.
> 
> Riding up hill is the same as riding on the flat, except you go slower for more effort. Train for the effort, not the incline.


 
But riding up hills is fun in a sick kind of way :P

To scruffmonster, it doesn't matter either way tbh, you should train for specific durations at a target intensity. This means if you are going to ride long drags, longer intervals at a lower intensity, if you will be riding up proper climbers climbs, i.e. short and brutal then ride at higher intensities for shorter durations. You needen't ride on hills at all, just make sure you ride to the intensities for the durations you will encounter. This might mean riding at a short TT sort of effort for 10-15 mins or riding at much higher intensity for 4 minutes. Only difference between riding on the flat or an actual hill will be your speed for the same intensity as B&Y says.

Technique is hotly debated, I would say though, on a sportive, you will encounter some proper hill dodgers who nearly fall off as soon as the gradient goes over 5%, competent handling in a bunch at slow speeds can be handy (if you hit a 25% and people are falling off, weaving back and forth and walking up, you will need to dodge them without grinding to a halt and falling off yourself). There is a certain sort of oddness to being right on the limit but only moving at a few mph on very steep hills too.

I have no idea what this event is or the type of hills you will encounter.


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## black'n'yellow (20 Dec 2012)

Scruffmonster said:


> Is that the application of common sense or experience? (Both are highly valued)


 
er, both I suppose.. 

I live in a hilly area, but my climbing only improved when my threshold improved - and ironically, I improved that by training on the flattest routes I could find. I'm not even going to mention 'technique', although I just did...


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## Pedrosanchezo (20 Dec 2012)

Pretty much what B & Y and robert said. 

I don't think it will do you any harm to ride some hills as part of your routine. Learning how to pace yourself up a lengthy/steep climb will help you overcome the enigma of hill climbing from a mental aspect. So if you have some hills, factor them into your rides. 
If you do decide to do it on the turbo trainer then it can also be beneficial to raise the front wheel up to approx 3-5% gradient. This only changes your riding position slightly but in doing so changes the body angle in relation to the bike. As is the same with a climb. Mix in some out of the saddle efforts too. 

This is more climbing specific though. Big miles (sportive) is more about (IMO) endurance and eating correctly. If you are running marathon's i would suggest you will be fine. 

Out of curiosity which Etape is it?


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## Scruffmonster (20 Dec 2012)

Thanks all. Noted. 

It's L'Etape du Tour. Apparently it's an easier year. Comforting. A loop from Annecy. 

I'm confident enough. Everything above helps, so cheers.


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## Pedrosanchezo (20 Dec 2012)

Scruffmonster said:


> Thanks all. Noted.
> 
> It's L'Etape du Tour. Apparently it's an easier year. Comforting. A loop from Annecy.
> 
> I'm confident enough. Everything above helps, so cheers.


As long as you keep your aerobic fitness up and then do some cycling specific training, one or two months before, you will blitz it. We have every faith. You are representing CC!!


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## jdtate101 (21 Dec 2012)

I'm doing the marmotte next yr so am in the same position as you. Near me there are a few lumpy bits, but nothing near alpine or long. There are some long climbs in Wales (Bwlch and Rhigos) you could try, but they are 5% ish and not really the same as doing a long 2hr climb at 6-8%. Doing long climbs is about pacing and tempo, it's funny but I've found that on long hills you tend to find a second wind after about 30mins and then it becomes not too uncomfortable. Top tips someone gave to me:

1) Turbo or structured training is a must, don't just do junk miles, have a goal.
2) Work on low cadence (60-80) power for long periods in a big gear if doing work on the flat.
3) When climbing stand every so often to clear the lactate
4) Fuel every 30mins even if not hungry (when climbing)
5) Drink every 15mins even if not thirsty (when climbing)

As for your two hill choices, take the shorter steeper one, it's closer to what you will face. Longest climb I've done is Mt.Hamilton in California, at 6% avg for 20miles (4300ft total ascent), and it's really not that bad. Yes it did take 1hr42mins, but I didn't feel drained at the top, and even did it 3 times in the same week. once.


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## Scruffmonster (21 Dec 2012)

jdtate101 said:


> I'm doing the marmotte next yr so am in the same position as you.
> 
> There are some long climbs in Wales (Bwlch and Rhigos) you could try
> 
> As for your two hill choices, take the shorter steeper one, it's closer to what you will face


 
I got an offer to double up and do the marmotte and l'Etape back to back. Not the best of ideas as a first effort I don't think. Chose l'Etape as I'll be based in the area until the tour comes through so it makes most sense.

My best test hill of sorts will be Toys Hill. It's 1.4 miles long at an average of 7.4%. Perfect to train on but the 30 Mile round trip to take it in would be a time suck and I'll probably only do it once a month to check progress.

Thanks for the post. I'll throw a few sessions in on the smaller hill, take some numbers from it and see how we look after crimbo for a Turbo purchase.


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## Rob3rt (21 Dec 2012)

Scruffmonster said:


> I got an offer to double up and do the marmotte and l'Etape back to back. Not the best of ideas as a first effort I don't think. Chose l'Etape as I'll be based in the area until the tour comes through so it makes most sense.
> 
> My best test hill of sorts will be Toys Hill. It's 1.4 miles long at an average of 7.4%. *Perfect to train on but the 30 Mile round trip to take it in would be a time suck and I'll probably only do it once a month to check progress.*
> 
> Thanks for the post. I'll throw a few sessions in on the smaller hill, take some numbers from it and see how we look after crimbo for a Turbo purchase.


 
That's less than a 2 hour round trip  Hit it at least once a week!


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## Scruffmonster (21 Dec 2012)

Rob3rt said:


> That's less than a 2 hour round trip  Hit it at least once a week!


 
Hahahahaha. If only life wasn't happening at the same time....

It's a fine art working in a worthwhile 30-45 minute session. Finding two spare hours (and that's without the faffing time before and after) would be a joy.

Though it would only add 15 miles to my commute home (Taking it to 40 miles) so there is a possibility of doing that come spring time.


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## Sittingduck (21 Dec 2012)

Christmas is the perfect time to start playing with new toys, IMHO.

I did it on Sunday and it's quite a nice one. Payback is a great descent into Brastead (assuming South > North climb).


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## heliphil (21 Dec 2012)

my advice from doing the Oztaler Radmarathon ( 5500m vertical) two years ago is just to make sure you get plenty of long rides in and make sure you are not carrying any excess weight. - the descents are more tricky to deal with than the climbs... neither of which I could really practice living in Essex. In fact I wasn't even sure I would get up the first climb till I tried it and then found myself going past lots of locals, I couldn't match them on the way down though.....


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## montage (21 Dec 2012)

Scruffmonster said:


> Hi,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

In answer to this, 6 repititions of 3.1%.

Fast as you can, but at a constant effort. Lactate threshold is the key here. Quality over quantity of reps. I'm guessing that if you did 20 reps, you would be so physically shagged that you wouldn't be giving your body that much benefit.

If you only have 45 minutes to spare, that will be a good session, once or twice a week, as will just riding flat out for that 45 minutes. But don't forget the easy rides as well.

rumour has it that there is a few big lumps in l'etape, so if you are carrying extra weight, focus on getting rid of that for the next couple of months.


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## Drago (21 Dec 2012)

Aren't we about due someone mentioning squats? Then an expert with no muscle of their own telling us why squats are no good.

It's usually jolly entertaining.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (21 Dec 2012)

Drago said:


> Aren't we about due someone mentioning squats? Then an expert with no muscle of their own telling us why squats are no good.
> 
> It's usually jolly entertaining.


Even more entertaining when power lifters don't have a clue how muscle works.


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## Drago (21 Dec 2012)

Yes, when squatting 616lbs the other day I really did wonder how it all worked.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (21 Dec 2012)

Drago said:


> Yes, when squatting 616lbs the other day I really did wonder how it all worked.


It wouldn't be a surprise if this were true.


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## Drago (21 Dec 2012)

Oh, silly me, I remember now.

It increases the size of the blood vessels, and promotes the growth of new ones.

Naturally, that improves blood flow.

Improved blood flow slows the rate of lactic acid build up.

More oxygen, less lactic acid. Surely even a sloping forehead like me doesn't need to spell out the end physiological result of that?


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (21 Dec 2012)

Drago said:


> Oh, silly me, I remember now.
> 
> It increases the size of the blood vessels, and promotes the growth of new ones.
> 
> ...


What are you talking about?


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## Drago (21 Dec 2012)

Increased endurance.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (21 Dec 2012)

Drago said:


> Increased endurance.


Nobody mentioned increased endurance.


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## Drago (21 Dec 2012)

That's one of the things our OP is aiming towards to enable him to tackle some gnarly hills. You will recall he lives somewhere with little in the way of hills and is training for a cycling event notable for having a few hills, and was wondering aloud how he might meet that training need.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (21 Dec 2012)

Drago said:


> That's one of the things our OP is aiming towards to enable him to tackle some gnarly hills.


You don't say! Isn't this the bit where you tell everyone how weedy they are, and claim that your 600lb odd squat helps you climb? I'd like you to explain why.


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## Drago (21 Dec 2012)

I've just explained how it increases muscular endurance by increasing oxygen supply and slowing the build up of lactic acid. This will enable one to climb for longer. That part is quite simple if even a meathead like me can dig it.

Would you also like to know how to tailor it to affect the growth of the mitochondria to enable one to work harder (ie, give a higher power output in a given period of time) as well, and thus climb faster?

Climb longer. Climb faster. The whole point of what are OP is trying to achieve.

They don't have to be mutually exclusive.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (21 Dec 2012)

Drago said:


> I've just explained how it increases muscular endurance. This will enable one to climb for longer.
> 
> Would you also like to know how to tailor it to affect the growth of the mitochondria to enable one to work harder (ie, give a higher power output in a given period of time) as well, and thus climb faster?
> 
> ...


You explained how what increases muscular endurance? Stop being vague.

Go on.


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## Drago (21 Dec 2012)

I speak in generalisations here, because there's huge scope for tuning it with varying weighs, reps and ballistic lifting techniques etc, but in simple terms...

Squats increases the size of the blood vessels. It promises the growth of new ones.

This increases the capacity to pump blood to that muscle.

During exercise that muscles demand for oxygen increases, and the increased blood supply meets that need more effectively, granting that muscle the ability to work harder/ longer before the supply depleted.

The increased blood supply also removes wastes more efficiently, and thus slows the rate at which lactic acid builds up, which is itself the cause if the unpleasant burning sensation one feels when pushing a muscle hard enough for long enough. The longer you can offset that reaching your own individual pain threshold, the longer you can make that muscle work. This is the big one as its the changing perception of effort as the burn increases that limits most people's endurance, not the muscles mechanical ability to continue.

That's very simplified, but fundamentally is it really.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (21 Dec 2012)

Drago said:


> Squats increases the _*density*_ of the blood vessels. _*Aerobic exercise*_ promotes the growth of new ones.
> 
> This increases the capacity to pump blood to that muscle.
> 
> ...


Made some corrections for you.


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## black'n'yellow (21 Dec 2012)

Drago said:


> Aren't we about due someone mentioning squats? Then an expert with no muscle of their own telling us why squats are no good.
> 
> It's usually jolly entertaining.


 
Can I just point out that I'm not even involved in this argument. 

People who understand how to train on a bicycle will recommend riding a bike. People who *don't* know how to train on a bicycle (but who nevertheless feel compelled to offer irrelevant advice about weightlifting) will suggest squats. That's all I'm going to say.


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## montage (21 Dec 2012)

Not that I am getting involved, but Peter Sagan does weights - there is some Slovakian video of him somewhere on youtube which you can find if you search hard enough.

Ian Stannard also mentioned that he enjoys the "strength and conditioning" part of his training in the off season. However I also remember Geriant Thomas saying that he never touches weights, all strength specific stuff is on the bike. With 45 minutes a day, I'd stick to the bike


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## amaferanga (21 Dec 2012)

You don't need to be strong to be a _strong_ cyclist.

Strength is a red herring. 

Sure go to the gym if you're vain and/or you want to perve at women, but not if you want to become a good cyclist.


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## Rob3rt (21 Dec 2012)

Oh FFS. This old crock again.

Without entering into a squat/no squat debate (I just don't care any more) and as respectfully as I can put this, Drago, we don't care about how much you squat, your epic mass and your road map vascularity in this context. No-one needs crazy mass to know that epic leg strength doesn't equal epic climbing ability. Feel free to argue in favour of squats but do yourself a favour and leave out the meat head stuff, it will work in your favour!


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## Scruffmonster (21 Dec 2012)

I love it when you read a thread and there are loads of missing posts from folks you've blocked. You entertain your curiosity and click 'show messages' and then get this endorseement of why they were blocked in the first place.

I won't be doing any extra in the way of off bike strength work. I like running, I like riding my bike. I do a bit of conditioning work, and a dedicated session if I feel a bit burnt out from the fun stuff. Very rare.


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## Pedrosanchezo (21 Dec 2012)

Sure i've seen this debate somewhere before. 

There is no denying that some pro teams add weight lifting to their regime. Depends on the cyclist, the coach, the goals set and even the time of year. Some pro's even post their workload on some websites and even make them viewable for the public. Most of these, such as Ivan Basso's workouts, need you to sign up or sign in to access the info. Some of them read '30 minute weights session'. This is part of a 5-7 hour training day though so hardly a big % of the overall. Endurance is the big %.

It seems to depend on who you ask:

"Pro cyclists spend an average of two to six hours per day training. Most of that time is spent riding, but they might spend an hour in the gym a few days a week lifting weights to build leg and core strength, especially during the off-season months (mid-October to mid-January)". 


http://www.amgentourofcalifornia.com/Peloton/TNT-corner/life-of-a-pro.html

http://velonews.competitor.com/2010...ength-training-for-cycling-a-good-idea_139198

On the other hand some coaches do not recommend any non cycling activities, though most seem to advocate core work.

Different approaches for different people.

I personally only do core work, now and again. I ride lots more.


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