# Crackdown in Oxford



## Venod (29 Oct 2015)

From BBC South

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p036cwk3


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## SpokeyDokey (29 Oct 2015)

Amazing the three cyclists who flouted the law again on the same night after already receiving a fine.

Should've put this in the current lighting up thread!


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## raleighnut (29 Oct 2015)

Good policy, buy some lights and we'll cancel the fine.


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## Drago (29 Oct 2015)

About time. Too many cyclists get away with too much and in the eyes of the public it reflects badly on then rest of us.


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## Milkfloat (29 Oct 2015)

Drago said:


> About time. Too many cyclists get away with too much and in the eyes of the public it reflects badly on then read of us.



Cue a babble of cyclists to complain that this is victimisation and the police should be spending resources stopping motorists.


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## threebikesmcginty (29 Oct 2015)

Drago said:


> About time. Too many cyclists get away with too much and in the eyes of the public it reflects badly on then read of us.



Do we have to rearrange the words to form a sentence?


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## Drago (29 Oct 2015)

I don't pay any attention to lawbreakers who whinge when they get caught. Their choice.


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## numbnuts (29 Oct 2015)

What next helmets


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## Drago (29 Oct 2015)

Did anyone else spot the obvious error that TVP have made here? It's a bit obscure, but quite fundamental. @CopperCyclist might get it.


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## Markymark (29 Oct 2015)

Milkfloat said:


> Cue a babble of cyclists to complain that this is victimisation and the police should be spending resources stopping motorists.


Don't you think if instead they spent a couple of hours stopping speeding drivers and those on a mobile would have a greater impact on safety?


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## Drago (29 Oct 2015)

In was in TVP for 8 years before transferring, and can confirm they stop plenty of speeding motorists. Plenty and then some.


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## Markymark (29 Oct 2015)

Drago said:


> In was in TVP for 8 years before transferring, and can confirm they stop plenty of speeding motorists. Plenty and then some.


I don't doubt that. But then someone thiught let's leave the really dabgerous ones for a bit and do the less dangerous ones?


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## Drago (29 Oct 2015)

No. Those are GD officers, wouldn't be involved in speed enforcement anyway. If they weren't doing this they would be doing other things, and speed enforcement wouldn't be one of them, so the people you perceive as really naughty aren't having a night off from being harassed.

No one figured out their major clanger yet?


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## Markymark (29 Oct 2015)

Fair enough.


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## glenn forger (29 Oct 2015)

Tvp do this every year. It is a photo op for them, nothing more, there is zero evidence it makes cycling safer which is not surprising when you remember unlit riders feature in just 2% of cylist KSI stats. Lazy policing from a lazy and anti-cyclist police force. Pointless wasting limited resources on the road user least likely to harm.


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## Profpointy (29 Oct 2015)

Drago said:


> Did anyone else spot the obvious error that TVP have made here? It's a bit obscure, but quite fundamental. @CopperCyclist might get it.



TVP?


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## Drago (29 Oct 2015)

Thames Valley Dibble.


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## Profpointy (29 Oct 2015)

Drago said:


> Thames Valley Dibble.



are they parked on the pavement ?
do I win?


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## Drago (29 Oct 2015)

No, but that's a fair point.


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## Banjo (29 Oct 2015)

6PM could be before lighting up time ?


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## Drago (29 Oct 2015)

No, but that's good point to consider.


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## glenn forger (29 Oct 2015)

They have special warnings on their website reminding cyclists to stay off pavements. Nothing about drivers. Then they fanny about stopping cyclists, stupid, pointless policing that wastes everyone's time.


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## Milkfloat (29 Oct 2015)

Well in other articles mentioning this clamp down they were banging on about high vis - feel free to ping lack of lights, but don't infer that high vis is the law.

I cannot actually view the video - but were they actually pinging people on roads where lights are not a legal requirement?


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## Drago (29 Oct 2015)

No. Three good guesses, so I'll put you out of your misery.

One of the officers is a PCSO. He doesn't actually have the power to stop people for a moving traffic offence (other than cycling on the pavement).


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## glenn forger (29 Oct 2015)

The plod were asked on twitter why they were ignoring speeding and dangerous driving. The cops said "we did a twitter campaign against them!" Unlit cyclists featured in two fatalities last year, speeding and dangerous driving in more than a thousand.


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## Globalti (29 Oct 2015)

Yawn.

I wish they would come and do this in Preston; driving in to the town on any evening you run the gauntlet of muppets on bicycles dressed in black hoodies swanning around on the A59 like it's their own private test track. In the dark you really need your wits about you to avoid hitting one. Mind you they aren't commuters riding in a predictable straight line and easy to flag down, they're just feral kids on BMXs and mountain bikes so it would be hard to stop them.


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## Banjo (29 Oct 2015)

glenn forger said:


> The plod were asked on twitter why they were ignoring speeding and dangerous driving. The cops said "we did a twitter campaign against them!" Unlit cyclists featured in two fatalities last year, speeding and dangerous driving in more than a thousand.



Don't you read the other replies Glen? Its already been explained to you that these police aren't traffic police so wouldn't be involved in chasing speeding cars anyway.

Its common sense to have lights when riding in the dark whatever spin you put on it.


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## mjr (29 Oct 2015)

Banjo said:


> Don't you read the other replies Glen? Its already been explained to you that these police aren't traffic police so wouldn't be involved in chasing speeding cars anyway.
> 
> Its common sense to have lights when riding in the dark whatever spin you put on it.


Only if you need them to see where you're going. CTC campaigned against rear lights on good reasoning but unsuccessfully.

How many fewer cyclist-harrassing officer shifts would pay for an extra traffic policing officer shift?


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## glenn forger (29 Oct 2015)

Just two per cent of speeding drivers are convicted. Trafpol numbers have been halved. There are hardly any trafpol now, so diverting officers away from making the roads safer makes no sense.


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## Drago (29 Oct 2015)

I harass lawbreakers wherever I find them. I no more listen to whinging cyclist lawbreakers than I do whinging shoplifters, whinging speeding motorists, or whinging burglars.


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## glenn forger (29 Oct 2015)

It isnt against the law to not wear hi vis.


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## Milkfloat (29 Oct 2015)

glenn forger said:


> Just two per cent of speeding drivers are convicted. Trafpol numbers have been halved. There are hardly any trafpol now, so diverting officers away from making the roads safer makes no sense.



I can guarantee that far less than 2% of cyclists without lights are convicted. In this case, the cyclists were given the equivalent of a 'producer' - entirely fair in my opinion. As a group I think cyclists need to appear to be complying with the law to help win any debate with drivers who are not.


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## Karlt (29 Oct 2015)

I'd give 'em - and the pavement cyclists - the option of a Cyclist Improvement Course, like the Driver Improvement Courses they offer speeding drivers. The advantages would be:

1. Cyclists wouldn't be put off by being made to cycle on roads because the course would give them the confidence;
2. I could train as a trainer and going by the number of pavement cyclists around my way I'd have enough clients to live this IT job and do something useful instead.
3. I'd be able to offset some of my cycling kit against tax 

I know that strictly speaking only the first is a societal benefit, although a less bad tempered Karlt cycling on the roads can't be a bad thing.


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## Karlt (29 Oct 2015)

(I did know one public spirited soul who used to flag down Ninjas and give them a set of cheap Aldi £2 lights, if only to prove that they're really not expensive and there's not really much of an excuse)


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## glenn forger (29 Oct 2015)

When old bill start declaring that cyclists should dress up in hi vis every time they get on a bike they reinforce the notion that a fully legal rider with no hi vis is to blame in a rtc.


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## Milkfloat (29 Oct 2015)

glenn forger said:


> When old bill start declaring that cyclists should dress up in hi vis every time they get on a bike they reinforce the notion that a fully legal rider with no hi vis is to blame in a rtc.



Full agree with you on this one.


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## Karlt (29 Oct 2015)

I haven't had chance to listen to the report (at work) but if they're telling people they "should" have hi-viz I agree there's a problem. I don't go out of my way to wear hi-viz; it's one of those difficult issues where what's best for an individual is what's bad for the group as a whole. On the one hand if lots of people start wearing it and I don't them I'm potentially at a disadvantage. On the other hand if I wear it I'm contributing to the situation where those who don't are disadvantaged.


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## jonny jeez (29 Oct 2015)

Karlt said:


> (I did know one public spirited soul who used to flag down Ninjas and give them a set of cheap Aldi £2 lights, if only to prove that they're really not expensive and there's not really much of an excuse)


Its not the cost...its the look.

Lights are bare geek man, I don't be rude when I is lit up!


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## Karlt (29 Oct 2015)

Is that the look that includes a slammed saddle even on a MTB so the rider is riding with their knees around their ears, as if they were on a BMX even though they're not? Hardly a 'look' (other than 'clueless twit') but then what do I know? I'm even less down wid da yoof now than I was when I was da yoof.


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## jarlrmai (29 Oct 2015)

It's just my experience most cyclists without lights are the estate kids on bikes around here, the same ones who are on and off the pavement, they certainly don't wear helmets/high vis. But then again most of them are under 18. And there's the whole grey area about you cant expect a 7 year old to ride on the road. So at what point do we start applying the laws to under 18 cyclists.


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## summerdays (29 Oct 2015)

jarlrmai said:


> o at what point do we start applying the laws to under 18 cyclists.


16


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## MissTillyFlop (29 Oct 2015)

Afnug said:


> From BBC South
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p036cwk3



Damn it, thought that was an offer.

*Puts away pipe*


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## glenn forger (29 Oct 2015)

> PC Mark Pilling said:
> 
> “This campaign is aimed at educating cyclists about how important it is that they are fully visible to all other road users. Just because a cyclist can see where they are going on a well-lit street, does not necessarily mean that they are fully visible to motorists approaching with their headlights on.
> 
> ...



The next thing is a ped without hi vis will be held culpable.


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## mjr (29 Oct 2015)

glenn forger said:


> The next thing is a ped without hi vis will be held culpable.


http://www.newsbiscuit.com/2007/12/...council-paint-everything-else-luminous-green/


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## Venod (29 Oct 2015)

We have a local Wednesday Afternoon Cafe ride. a few weeks back a driver pulled out of a junction ahead on the cyclis'st left he pulled out and for some reason stayed on the right of the road he turned onto so collided with the group head on 2 hit the car, another fell off whilst braking hard, the driver admitteed responsibilty, one bike snapped in half, wheels ruined on the other, all three guys minor injurys and shocked, BCF were contacted for help claiming insurance, they seemed more concerned that hi viz was not being worn than chasing a payout, I do hope were not on a slippery slope to legislation.


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## glenn forger (29 Oct 2015)

We're definitely on the slippery slope to more dangerous roads, next month could see police cuts of between 25 and 40%.


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## Fab Foodie (29 Oct 2015)

glenn forger said:


> Tvp do this every year. It is a photo op for them, nothing more, there is zero evidence it makes cycling safer which is not surprising when you remember unlit riders feature in just 2% of cylist KSI stats. Lazy policing from a lazy and anti-cyclist police force. Pointless wasting limited resources on the road user least likely to harm.


Having passed this operation the other evening (in my car - shock horror) and seen the number of police and police cars involved I can only think this a complete waste of time and money. 

Oxford is a very high bike use environment and the evidence for the impact of a few non light using cyclists causing havoc is what exactly? It's a once a year farce to stop Mr Angry from Summertown writing more drivel to the Oxford Mail.


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## mjr (29 Oct 2015)

Fab Foodie said:


> It's a once a year farce to stop Mr Angry from Summertown writing more drivel to the Oxford Mail.


Instead, let's make writing hate letters to the newspapers illegal... oh wait...


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## Racing roadkill (29 Oct 2015)

Drago said:


> About time. Too many cyclists get away with too much and in the eyes of the public it reflects badly on then rest of us.


To be fair, if they haven't got lights, they won't be reflecting on anyone.


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## glenn forger (29 Oct 2015)

When I cycle impeccably it cheers me up no end to think my good behaviour reflects on all cyclists.


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## jarlrmai (29 Oct 2015)

Devil's Advocate here, as cyclists we all know we generally have the law on our side, but often not the application of that law.

I'm concerned that at some point a government would try to legislate us away. At the moment though they seem to big up cycling publically when they can but be short on actual proper action.


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## Jon George (29 Oct 2015)

I do note that near the end of the vid - at about 1.30 - it appears as though someone dressed in black and with no lights evades capture by simply riding an extreme version of Primary (if you can call the middle of the road that). Perhaps the police didn't see him.


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## raleighnut (29 Oct 2015)

Jon George said:


> I do note that near the end of the vid - at about 1.30 - it appears as though someone dressed in black and with no lights evades capture by simply riding an extreme version of Primary (if you can call the middle of the road that). Perhaps the police didn't see him.


Missed that


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## CopperCyclist (29 Oct 2015)

Drago said:


> Did anyone else spot the obvious error that TVP have made here? It's a bit obscure, but quite fundamental. @CopperCyclist might get it.



Hands up - I was intrigued, so watched the video but nope, didn't spot it! 

I imagine it very unlikely they would have chased anyone that refused to stop regardless, so I bet the 'powers' never came into it!


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## toffee (29 Oct 2015)

In Copenhagen at the moment, nobody gives a toss whether the cyclists are wearing helmets or hi viz whether they have lights or sneak though on a red light. There were no horns or arguments on our 2 hour ride this morning. Quite enjoyable. Sitting outside a bar this afternoon we were quite surprised at the number of cyclists who were wearing helmets. Have to say there are a number of safety organisations which would not be able to cope with cyclists here

Derek


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## Fab Foodie (29 Oct 2015)

CopperCyclist said:


> Hands up - I was intrigued, so watched the video but nope, didn't spot it!
> 
> I imagine it very unlikely they would have chased anyone that refused to stop regardless, so I bet the 'powers' never came into it!


I counted at least 2 police cars on each side of the road (and IIRC 1 Transit), so they had options ....


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## phil_hg_uk (29 Oct 2015)

Good glad to see this happening its about time, crack down on pavement cyclists next please


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## glenn forger (29 Oct 2015)

I liked the German rider explaining why she didn't have a front light as if it was the most hilarious story in the world. Be quite a good tactic to adopt with Johnny Law come to think of it, you could be effusively teutonic till they wave you away.


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## GrumpyGregry (29 Oct 2015)

Drago said:


> About time. Too many cyclists get away with too much and in the eyes of the public it reflects badly on then rest of us.


When they stop bad drivers does it reflect badly on the rest of us drivers?


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## GrumpyGregry (29 Oct 2015)

phil_hg_uk said:


> Good glad to see this happening its about time, crack down on pavement cyclists next please


For 8 year olds and 88 year olds and all in between?


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## GrumpyGregry (29 Oct 2015)

toffee said:


> In Copenhagen at the moment, nobody gives a toss whether the cyclists are wearing helmets or hi viz whether they have lights or sneak though on a red light. There were no horns or arguments on our 2 hour ride this morning. Quite enjoyable. Sitting outside a bar this afternoon we were quite surprised at the number of cyclists who were wearing helmets. Have to say there are a number of safety organisations which would not be able to cope with cyclists here
> 
> Derek


I've been here (cph) for months and the police have a better sense of their urgent priorities. Though if you do something daft right in their face (backies or jaywalking) you will get a ticking off. 

Dont agree with your comment re no lights no toss tho. Riders even carry torches in their hands in their urge to comply.

Very law abiding cph'ers are.


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## phil_hg_uk (29 Oct 2015)

GrumpyGregry said:


> For 8 year olds and 88 year olds and all in between?



It is illegal to cycle on the pavement unless it is stated otherwise obviously small children on kids bikes for instance cant be expected to cycle on the a busy road, but day in day out I see fully grown adults cycling on the pavement often in full lycra there is no reason for them to be doing that so until such time as they change to law they need to get on the road.


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## glenn forger (29 Oct 2015)

Cambridge cops are no better:

http://quirker.co.uk/story/cambridge-police-tweeted-this-upsetting-scene-and-cyclists-got-emotional


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## GrumpyGregry (29 Oct 2015)

phil_hg_uk said:


> It is illegal to cycle on the pavement unless it is stated otherwise obviously small children on kids bikes for instance cant be expected to cycle on the a busy road, but day in day out I see fully grown adults cycling on the pavement often in full lycra there is no reason for them to be doing that so until such time as they change to law they need to get on the road.


The law applies to 8 year olds, you either want the law applied or you don't.

Fortunately ACPO have more sense than some in here.


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## Karlt (29 Oct 2015)

> Quote deleted by mod



No-one? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-31805312


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## Shut Up Legs (29 Oct 2015)

Drago said:


> About time. Too many cyclists get away with too much and in the eyes of the public it reflects badly on then rest of us.


Not the old "everything other cyclists do reflects on us" rubbish. What other cyclists do has stuff-all to do with me, and I'm not responsible for them, any more than motorists are responsible for what other motorists do. So please stop supporting marginalisation of cyclists.


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## phil_hg_uk (29 Oct 2015)

Karlt said:


> No-one? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-31805312



Well the copper messed up and they apologized and said:

_The police officer has forgotten that children under the age of 10 are below the criminal age of responsibility so they can't break laws and can technically ride on the pavement._

Which is what I thought was the case.

Having said that I wonder what they would do if an under 10 year old committed an armed robbery.


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## toffee (29 Oct 2015)

GrumpyGregry said:


> Dont agree with your comment re no lights no toss tho. Riders even carry torches in their hands in their urge to comply.
> 
> Very law abiding cph'ers are.



To be honest I haven't seen any police in the centre of Copenhagen in the two days we have been here and there have been loads of bikes without lights, others have only had rear lights.

Law abiding I don't know, but everyone drivers, cyclists and pedestrians just don't seem to be as stressed about life. We made mistakes riding around today but no one beeped their horn or threw their hands up in anger.

I think it's life in Denmark is just less stressful, its not our first visit here.

Derek


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## jonny jeez (29 Oct 2015)

Karlt said:


> Is that the look that includes a slammed saddle even on a MTB so the rider is riding with their knees around their ears, as if they were on a BMX even though they're not? Hardly a 'look' (other than 'clueless twit') but then what do I know? I'm even less down wid da yoof now than I was when I was da yoof.


Yep, it probably is...although I was waiting for my eldest during last summer and watched some lads doing some pretty impressive moves on mountain bikes.they were bunny hopping up unto walls and even bollards (on one wheel). I don't know what style of skill this is but a tall seat post would be a distinct disadvantage...as such they had no seats at all...it was like watching trials bike riding, without the engine.


So maybe the kids you see are emulating this "cooler" form.of mtb..
Or whatever the actual style is.

I can speak a bit of teenager but I really cant follow the whole culture


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## Karlt (30 Oct 2015)

phil_hg_uk said:


> Well the copper messed up and they apologized and said:
> 
> _The police officer has forgotten that children under the age of 10 are below the criminal age of responsibility so they can't break laws and can technically ride on the pavement._
> 
> ...



It'd be a social services issue - the age of criminal responsibility is solid. It's not actually correct that under 10s can technically ride on the pavement. It's still illegal for them to do so, and a police officer could insist they stop doing it and probably if push came to shove chuck a public order offence at the parent if they refused to comply, or accompany the child home if unaccompanied. They can't however be prosecuted for it, being under the age of criminal responsibility.


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## Globalti (30 Oct 2015)

The BBC news feature is just another example of how the media collude with the Police to create an impression of effect - a cycling version of Police-Camera-Action if you like, or a free public information film. There are frighteningly few Police on duty at any time so the fear of a random stop has disappeared, which is why a small minority of drivers flout the law so brazenly. However Society continues to function because the majority are law-abiding as they have the brains to recognise that respect for the rules is necessary for a harmonious life. Cities like Amsterdam and Copenhagen are good examples of how this works; friends of mine who live in a developing country stayed in Amsterdam and marvelled that it was like looking inside a superior brain.

The Police have to use their scarce resources in the most effective way, so to stand beside a major commuting route in a cycling city is bound to pay dividends, with over 150 tickets written out in three hours, a fantastic hit rate. The very visible PR exercise will have a good effect in a middle-class university city like Oxford because the cyclists were students and so presumably amongst some of the most intelligent people on the planet, ready to listen to reason and accept a bollocking without giving the Police aggro in return. Try conducting the same exercise in Blackbird Leys estate in Cowley and the hit rate would be minimal while the aggro would not make for such effective PR, assuming the Police could even find a suitable location in which to stop the black hoody-clad muppets who happen to be riding unlit bicycles around the estate. 

I was more interested in the ham-fisted writing style of the officer shown writing out a ticket. at 0:14.


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## GrumpyGregry (30 Oct 2015)

toffee said:


> To be honest I haven't seen any police in the centre of Copenhagen in the two days we have been here and there have been loads of bikes without lights, others have only had rear lights.
> 
> Law abiding I don't know, but everyone drivers, cyclists and pedestrians just don't seem to be as stressed about life. We made mistakes riding around today but no one beeped their horn or threw their hands up in anger.
> 
> ...


cph is full of British visitors this week; half-term I guess.

I'm going home tomorrow.

Gobsmacked you've not been ting-ed by the bell of an annoyed cyclist behind you at some point. Regular feature of the so-called rush hour.

I haven't seen enough of the rest of the Denmark to make a meaningful comparison with back home. But I will say this, for a capital city folk don't half walk slow. (Even compared to Stockholm). London it ain't. And there are pro's and con's to that. cph'ers certainly seem to have a better work-life balance worked out them most other folk I've met. But... well... let's say the clam and peace can be a little superficial. Have a read of "The Almost, Nearly, Perfect People" or "The Year of Living Danishly." for a deeper insight into the Danish psyche.


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## mjr (30 Oct 2015)

GrumpyGregry said:


> Gobsmacked you've not been ting-ed by the bell of an annoyed cyclist behind you at some point.


Are they really annoyed or are you assuming emotions for them?


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## GrumpyGregry (30 Oct 2015)

mjray said:


> Are they really annoyed or are you assuming emotions for them?


Irritated. Annoyed. Frustrated. Piqued. The bell changes but the song remains the same.

Given that many tings are followed up by a stream of Danish invective, sometimes muttered in passing, but often shouted, directed at the poor sap who is the target of the ting, and on two occasions I've seen that then escalate to "handbags", I leave you to draw your own conclusions...


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## GrumpyGregry (30 Oct 2015)

jonny jeez said:


> Yep, it probably is...although I was waiting for my eldest during last summer and watched some lads doing some pretty impressive moves on mountain bikes.they were bunny hopping up unto walls and even bollards (on one wheel). I don't know what style of skill this is but a tall seat post would be a distinct disadvantage...as such they had no seats at all...it was like watching trials bike riding, without the engine.
> 
> 
> So maybe the kids you see are emulating this "cooler" form.of mtb..
> ...


The style is the same with or without an engine. Trials.


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## Globalti (30 Oct 2015)

My experience of Denmark is limited to some rather dark TV detective series, but if they are representative of Danish life I'd guess there is deep frustration just below the surface as well as depression due to the endless grey weather.


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## 2clepto (30 Oct 2015)

phil_hg_uk said:


> It is illegal to cycle on the pavement unless it is stated otherwise obviously small children on kids bikes for instance cant be expected to cycle on the a busy road, but day in day out I see fully grown adults cycling on the pavement often in full lycra there is no reason for them to be doing that so until such time as they change to law they need to get on the road.



"there is no reason for them to be doing that.." you cannot possibly know the entirety of reasons why "grown adults" cycle upon a pavement. leading us to consider your logic is flawed. do some proper research before spouting off.


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## GrumpyGregry (30 Oct 2015)

Globalti said:


> My experience of Denmark is limited to some rather dark TV detective series, but if they are representative of Danish life I'd guess there is deep frustration just below the surface as well as depression due to the endless grey weather.


Repressed and slightly depressed would describe a lot of people I've worked and socialised with.


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## Fab Foodie (30 Oct 2015)

GrumpyGregry said:


> Repressed and slightly depressed would describe a lot of people I've worked and socialised with.


Do you think there may be a common denominator?


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## ManiaMuse (30 Oct 2015)

They do this every year in Oxford for a couple of weekends and they always land a big catch of ninja cyclists. Not quite sure what all the raging is about in this thread, it's a fair enough policy that if you show proof that you've bought some lights they refund the fine.

Some of the cycling in Oxford is understandably quite poor due to the student population. Plenty of red light jumping, pavement cycling, tipsy/drunk cycling in the evenings, plenty of rustbucket bikes of dubious roadworthiness. And I shudder to think that I used to be one of them (before I became a 'proper' cyclist).

On the plus side it's not the worst place to cycle because the city is so anti-car and motorists are generally aware of cyclists because of the sheer numbers.


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## GrumpyGregry (30 Oct 2015)

Fab Foodie said:


> Do you think there may be a common denominator?


Lols 

Yeah, they live in Scandinavia. The tranquiliser consumption and suicide rates are hideous.


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## Tim Hall (30 Oct 2015)

Globalti said:


> My experience of Denmark is limited to some rather dark TV detective series, but if they are representative of Danish life I'd guess there is deep frustration just below the surface as well as depression due to* the endless grey* weather.


I was pleased to learn (through a combination of watching Beck and furious Googling), that "murky" was brought to what we call English by the Vikings.


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## ChrisEyles (30 Oct 2015)

I got caught out five years or so ago when I used to live in Oxford with no lights... I'd been "meaning to get some" for ages but never quite got around to it. Turned up at the police station the next day with lights and they cancelled the fine - seems like an effective strategy to make sure occasional (mostly student) cyclists don't go around cycling on the roads in the dark with no lights. It's also a fair point that a large number of cyclists in Oxford really don't know what they're doing on the road, and having no lights makes those sudden swerves out into the traffic even more dangerous, so I think the policy is a good one, if a little nanny-state-ish.


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## GrumpyGregry (30 Oct 2015)

Tim Hall said:


> I was pleased to learn (through a combination of watching Beck and furious Googling), that "murky" was brought to what we call English by the Vikings.


As was being enthralled.


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## GrumpyGregry (30 Oct 2015)

Tim Hall said:


> I was pleased to learn (through a combination of watching Beck and furious Googling), that "murky" was brought to what we call English by the Vikings.


*Traust* me, *þó* (though) it may seem *oddi* at first, we *er* still very *líkligr* to use the *same *words as the Vikings did in our everyday speech. *Þeirra* (their) language evolved into the modern-day Scandinavian languages, but *þeir* (they) also gave English the *gift* of hundreds of words.


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## Fab Foodie (30 Oct 2015)

GrumpyGregry said:


> *Traust* me, *þó* (though) it may seem *oddi* at first, we *er* still very *líkligr* to use the *same*words as the Vikings did in our everyday speech. *Þeirra* (their) language evolved into the modern-day Scandinavian languages, but *þeir* (they) also gave English the *gift* of hundreds of words.


I like 'gift' in Swedish which means both wife and poison ...


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## GrumpyGregry (30 Oct 2015)

Fab Foodie said:


> I like 'gift' in Swedish which means both wife and poison ...


And kiss means widdle!

Yeft (Gift) is marriage/married rather than wife I think


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## Globalti (30 Oct 2015)

I remember reading Eric Newby's book The Last Grain Race in which he reports some of the conversation of the Scandinavian crew. It struck me strongly at the time that phonetically it sounded very similar to Geordie.


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## Fab Foodie (30 Oct 2015)

GrumpyGregry said:


> And kiss means widdle!
> 
> Yeft (Gift) is marriage/married rather than wife I think


I think you're right about gift. It was almost 20 years ago when I lived in Rydaback and worked in Helsingborg. I forgotten most of the little I learned!


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## steveindenmark (30 Oct 2015)

toffee said:


> In Copenhagen at the moment, nobody gives a toss whether the cyclists are wearing helmets or hi viz whether they have lights or sneak though on a red light. There were no horns or arguments on our 2 hour ride this morning. Quite enjoyable. Sitting outside a bar this afternoon we were quite surprised at the number of cyclists who were wearing helmets. Have to say there are a number of safety organisations which would not be able to cope with cyclists here
> 
> Derek



But dont get complacent. They do have regular clampdowns on no lights on bikes in CPH at this time of the year. They hand out fines and not warnings. Helmets and high vis are not the norm in Copenhagen.


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## Karlt (30 Oct 2015)

Globalti said:


> I remember reading Eric Newby's book The Last Grain Race in which he reports some of the conversation of the Scandinavian crew. It struck me strongly at the time that phonetically it sounded very similar to Geordie.



There's lots of Norse in Geordie, which you don't find in more Southern English generally but may find in place names: Wor - Our (Norse Vor), Bairn - Child, Laik - Play, Laithe - Barn; Beck, Foss, Scar and Fell are found throughout the North, especially the North East. Simple fact is that Old Norse and Old English were similar enough that with familiarity and care Norseman and Englishman could understand each other, and as the Norse settled amongst the English intermediate forms of the language would have sprung up. Indeed, one of the main differences was the noun case endings, which like in Latin and modern Icelandic and Russian could do the work done in Modern English by prepositions. As the case endings differed, more use was made of prepositions so the mixing of Old English and Old Norse may have contributed to the breakdown of the case system of Old English and a move to greater use of prepositions and word order to take their place as in Middle and Modern English. It doesn't surprise me that some of the cadence and phonology of Old Norse survives in both modern Scandinavian languages and North Eastern English dialects.

Talk of Geordies stationed in Iceland being able to understand Icelandic are however bunk; modern Icelandic and even the deepest Geordie dialect are nothing like similar enough for that; Geordie is more like Icelandic than standard English is, but it's still way closer to standard English than it is to Icelandic!

But I digress.


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## Keith Oates (31 Oct 2015)

Out here not only do most bicycles not have lights and on the e-bikes they have them but they are rarely switched on.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Justinslow (31 Oct 2015)

ChrisEyles said:


> I got caught out five years or so ago when I used to live in Oxford with no lights... I'd been "meaning to get some" for ages but never quite got around to it. Turned up at the police station the next day with lights and they cancelled the fine - seems like an effective strategy to make sure occasional (mostly student) cyclists don't go around cycling on the roads in the dark with no lights. It's also a fair point that a large number of cyclists in Oxford really don't know what they're doing on the road, and having no lights makes those sudden swerves out into the traffic even more dangerous, so I think the policy is a good one, if a little nanny-state-ish.


I think it's quite funny that somebody who has actually been "caught" by the Feds and says "fair play" and then went and got some lights and agrees that some of the cyclists there are pants is roundly ignored by errrr, everyone.
Why are people getting in such a tiz about the police - policing? 
Nothing to see here, move along.


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## mjr (31 Oct 2015)

Justinslow said:


> I think it's quite funny that somebody who has actually been "caught" by the Feds and says "fair play" and then went and got some lights and agrees that some of the cyclists there are pants is roundly ignored by errrr, everyone.


Maybe it wasn't ignored but there was nothing meriting further comment in it.


> Why are people getting in such a tiz about the police - policing?
> Nothing to see here, move along.


I'm disappointed that the police often don't enforce various traffic laws that are there to protect cyclists and others - sometimes even after a collision, not passing things to the crown prosecuter - including motorists driving without a full set of lights, but they do find enough resources to enforce our wrongheaded and outdated lighting laws against cyclists... or actually, they're not even doing that fully, requiring EU standard approved lights of flashing- only ones, are they?

So people are getting in a tiz because the police are picking and choosing which laws to enforce and how strictly and the choice doesn't make a whole heck of a lot of sense in a good way, does it?


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## srw (1 Nov 2015)

mjray said:


> So people are getting in a tiz because the police are picking and choosing which laws to enforce and how strictly and the choice doesn't make a whole heck of a lot of sense in a good way, does it?



This is _very_ old news - it was first done when I was regularly visiting Oxford - about 20 years ago. The police, in Oxford as elsewhere, respond to what the public tell them they want to police, and for some reason that means policing unlit bikes and bikes on pavements. No, I don't understand it either - but I can imagine the mentality of someone who is bothered enough to raise it with the cops.

If you want local police to prioritise other things you need to find a weight of public opinion to back you.


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