# So, who's at fault.



## betty swollocks (31 Dec 2013)

Ok so you're cycling along a clearly signposted shared cyclepath/footway at about 10 mph, with the traffic on the adjacent road coming towards you. You spot a car coming out of a driveway up ahead and slow down a bit, but just as you go across the driveway bit, the car comes out and pinches your front wheel under its tyre, crushing your rim and buckling your wheel. You're ok because you saved enough off your speed to be able to stop and pull the wheel out from underneath.
So who's at fault?
The lady driver at the time was immensely apologetic and was a very nice person, so we simply exchanged phone numbers and I agreed to get a quote for the wheel repair and she undertook to pay it.
I got the quote - £99 - and now they're disputing it, or rather, I suspect here husband is. The wheel was a Mavic Ksyrium Elite, so the repair quote is a fair one.
The husband texted to say that he's visited the incident scene and that 'he's afraid' that the cyclist is at fault.
Below are two pics, the first taken immediately after the incident and the other a little later, showing the driveway in relation to the surroundings.
Opinions are welcome.


----------



## theclaud (31 Dec 2013)

Her fault. Stick to your guns.


----------



## BrianEvesham (31 Dec 2013)

Why does the "husband" think it's you fault?


----------



## theclaud (31 Dec 2013)

BrianEvesham said:


> Why does the "husband" think it's you fault?


Best not to go into why. Best just to treat such suggestions with the polite contempt they deserve.


----------



## Dave 123 (31 Dec 2013)

The husband wasn't there- he doesn't qualify for an opinion.


----------



## simon the viking (31 Dec 2013)

Deffo her fault in my opinion. If she had hit a ped it would have been her fault ....its marked as a cycle path so still her fault. Tell him to pay it or threaten to take to small claims court. Are you a member of B.C, CTC etc who could involve a solicitor or a family friend solicitor who send a letter....

Was she reversing out? as highway code says that you should not reverse on to a main road from a driveway

Edit: I see from photo she was probably driving out makes it worse imo as she clearly was not observing properly


----------



## betty swollocks (31 Dec 2013)

BrianEvesham said:


> Why does the "husband" think it's you fault?


No idea. I've not got into involved negotiations with him yet, but I'd like to know too. I'll apprise on here if I get a reply.
I have the received the legal aid pack from British Cycling now and if I don't get satisfaction, I'll hand it over to them.


----------



## theclaud (31 Dec 2013)

betty swollocks said:


> No idea. I've not got into involved negotiations with him yet, *but I'd like to know too*. I'll apprise on here if I get a reply.
> I have the received the legal aid pack from British Cycling now and if I don't get satisfaction, I'll hand it over to them.



Don't dignify his "thought" processes with your curiosity - it lends them unnecessary credibility. It's cut and dried - confidence and polite assertiveness is the way to go.


----------



## simon the viking (31 Dec 2013)

Go for it! give him one more chance to pay up and then inform you will get your solicitors.... expain you have cycle insurance who will pursue the claim.. Some motorists would (only my opinion) try it on... thinking that you wouldn't pay for a solicitors for £99... they dont realise that a lot of cyclists have insurance now


----------



## theclaud (31 Dec 2013)

[QUOTE 2846380, member: 45"]Oh I don't know. Starting a sentence with "I'm afraid" has led many a man to the gallows. *It's that uncounterable weight that the phrase brings to an argument*.[/quote]
Careful - there'll be a rash of it on the forum.


----------



## simon the viking (31 Dec 2013)

2846404 said:


> I would hazard a wild guess that it goes "how much? Tell him we aren't paying, what can he do about it?"


I reckon its a bit like that..... "£99 quid to mend a wheel...tell em you can get a whole bike for that!"


----------



## betty swollocks (31 Dec 2013)

I suspect it is.
I have given them a link to the wheel, so they can look up the cost for themselves and invited them to go and have a look at the actual one, which is currently in a bike shop local to us all.


----------



## steveindenmark (31 Dec 2013)

The driver was at fault.

First thing is be professional.

The first thing they will do is try and reduce the cost. Don't let them, stick to your guns and they will pay the full amount.

The husband has no say in this matter, I would address any correspondence to the driver not the husband. Make it clear that you will only deal with the driver.

Provide her with a copy of the repair quote from you LBS. Explain that you have taken legal advice and shown your photos to a solicitor ( white lie). Tell her that if they are not willing to settle you will open a case in the small claims court, where you will ask for costs and damages.

It may help reporting this to the police and getting an accident reference number which you can let them have. Once they see the police are involved they will back down.

The husband is trying to bluff you. Bluff him back.

Steve


----------



## martint235 (31 Dec 2013)

As people have said, definitely her fault and I'd chase it.

One slightly negative bit worth noting though is that a lot of cycle insurers work from a personal injury point of view. So if you're injured they'll pursue the other party and add on any costs of repairs etc, however if there's no personal injury and only damage to the bike, they tend to swerve it in my experience.


----------



## ianrauk (31 Dec 2013)

martint235 said:


> As people have said, definitely her fault and I'd chase it.
> 
> One slightly negative bit worth noting though is that a lot of cycle insurers work from a personal injury point of view. So if you're injured they'll pursue the other party and add on any costs of repairs etc, however if there's no personal injury and only damage to the bike, they tend to swerve it in my experience.




The CTC supply a small claims pack for bike damage claims.


----------



## martint235 (31 Dec 2013)

2846455 said:


> Can we move on to the wisdom of shared use paths?


 Must we? I hate them with almost as much vitriol as I hate ASLs.


----------



## theclaud (31 Dec 2013)

2846455 said:


> Can we move on to the wisdom of shared use paths?


I sometimes think you might have a masochistic streak.


----------



## young Ed (31 Dec 2013)

no opinions needed her fault
it is the same as a T junction effectively those joining (her) have to give way
even if you wold have been whizzing along there at 50 mph, highly unlikely i hope, it could have been her fault but considering you were doing about 10 mph and you slowed down it was definitely her fault and you are by no means at fault 
Cheers Ed


----------



## 400bhp (31 Dec 2013)

Now that they are arguing, stop there. Phone a cyclist lawyer today then take it from there.

the arguments can be done by someone else.

fwiw, I got the driver of a car that hit me to give me £20 to cover the lbs cost of examining my bike. I had to chase him once for payment. I wouldnt have chased it twice, next call would have been solicitors and pursuit of full damages.

the driver has more to lose, in terms of insurance hassle (both the effect on future premiums plus the effect in the short term upon renewal while the case is still live).


----------



## shouldbeinbed (31 Dec 2013)

Ignore the husband & deal with the driver, be polite but firm and use whatever legal means necessary to ensure she pays out for not looking properly. I'd also suggest, once you've got the money, the residents that use that drive ensure the hedge is trimmed back so they can see clearly what is coming along the cycle path before pulling out willy nilly onto it.


----------



## Linford (31 Dec 2013)

You have right of way so they are at fault. A cyclepath is a highway in the same way that a road is and they are trying to enter it (i can't believe some people are trying to argue both sides of the fence with this and the ped thread though)


----------



## Spinney (31 Dec 2013)

Can you also claim for loss of use of your bike while it is being mended - and that this will take longer if you can't get the money? (i.e. you need them to pay up to get your wheel fixed).
Even if you have no intention of claiming for such a thing in reality, it might make the point that arguing over something that is clearly her fault can only result in the cost to them going up...


----------



## simon the viking (31 Dec 2013)

@Spinney made a good point myself I would try to claim at least 20p per mile (if they continue to refute fault) for commuting milage as you may have to use petrol for a trip you dont usally use the car for


----------



## Linford (31 Dec 2013)

2846599 said:


> Priority not right of way.



And the difference is ?


----------



## Linford (31 Dec 2013)

2846613 said:


> Misusing language makes communication difficult.



So nothing more than pedantery then ?


----------



## Linford (31 Dec 2013)

2846658 said:


> If someone on here told me that I was getting two words the wrong way around I would look it up to find out.
> Right of way. Both parties have a right of way here, as in a legal right to go where they were going.
> Priority. When interacting, one party gives priority to the other.
> It gets confusing when people misuse right of way to the extent that they say someone hasn't got right of way, meaning they didn't have priority, in a situation where they clearly do have the right to go where they were going.



So that is where @User has been going wrong all this time with his Sig line...thanks for clearing that one up

WE 'ARE' A TEAM !!!!!!


----------



## Bobby Mhor (31 Dec 2013)

Not wishing to seem interfering, would it not be thoughtful to mask the car registration plate...esp on a public forum...


----------



## betty swollocks (31 Dec 2013)

I hate using this bit of shared pathway, but it's only 100 yds from home and saves me having to do a right turn in the middle of the road, with traffic roaring up behind me, accelerating from the lights.
Thanks for your input everyone. You've just confirmed that the other party (the driver) is wholly at fault, which is what I believed anyway.
As I said earlier, I am a member of 'British Cycling' and will use their legal services if I do not get satisfaction.


----------



## Linford (31 Dec 2013)

[QUOTE 2846708, member: 45"]I'm afraid that my quote from the HC only confirms what Adrian has said.[/quote]

Yer....but you have to understand precisely 'who' has priority at all times...and even then, you cannot actually give it away.....IE: flashing people out of a junction could be either showing courtesy, or (correctly) indicating a warning....the latter being factually correct


----------



## Milzy (31 Dec 2013)

I could see this one been a 50/50. You was aware what might happen, went into cautious mode, bled off your speed but still managed to get your wheel crushed? Hope she just gives you £100 cash.

Good day.


----------



## fossyant (31 Dec 2013)

You are being nice just to charge the £100 for a Ksyrium.

A wheel costs more. I'd be after a whole new wheel, and if the model year couldn't be matched, a new pair. You are entitled to them.


----------



## benb (31 Dec 2013)

Bobby Mhor said:


> Not wishing to seem interfering, would it not be thoughtful to mask the car registration plate...esp on a public forum...



Why? What can we do with it?


----------



## benb (31 Dec 2013)

Milzy said:


> I could see this one been a 50/50. You was aware what might happen, went into cautious mode, bled off your speed but still managed to get your wheel crushed? Hope she just gives you £100 cash.
> 
> Good day.



How could it possibly be 50/50?


----------



## machew (31 Dec 2013)

Bobby Mhor said:


> Not wishing to seem interfering, would it not be thoughtful to mask the car registration plate...esp on a public forum...


Yup cos someone might put the number plate into askmid and find out that there is no insurance on BK55KWY


----------



## benb (31 Dec 2013)

machew said:


> Yup cos someone might put the number plate into askmid and find out that there is no insurance on BK55KWY



Is that true?


----------



## potsy (31 Dec 2013)

benb said:


> Is that true?


Yes.


----------



## benb (31 Dec 2013)

potsy said:


> Yes.



In which case the OP should definitely notify the police.


----------



## Linford (31 Dec 2013)

[QUOTE 2846760, member: 45"]I'm afraid that no you don't. You're still coming at it from the wrong angle.

Approach a door at work with someone else on the other side. Do you spend hours arguing with yourself about whether you should have priority to get through first and then make your way, giving two fingers to the other person if they should dare to intrude on your territory? Or do you hold it open for them? Which is the better interaction? Which leaves you feeling good about yourself and which makes you angry. Attitude linfy, attitude.

Your light flashing example is about warning. It has nothing to do with road ownership and is as irrelevant as a poorly kangaroo.[/quote]
Can't see any relevance with your door in work example. We are discussing priority in law on the highway... which is relevant to the op


----------



## Milzy (31 Dec 2013)

benb said:


> How could it possibly be 50/50?


Because you have a duty of self preservation & the OP thought, ''I better be careful here'' & they ''STILL'' ended up under the wheel''. Going back to the holding a door open thing, that's how it should have been in this situation. I make eye contact with the driver & make sure they'll wait for me to go past. Lucky it's just a wheel & not injuries.


----------



## potsy (31 Dec 2013)

benb said:


> In which case the OP should definitely notify the police.


Assuming it's not just a blip on the database you'd think they would want to keep a low profile and not risk the police getting involved.
I would give the 'driver' one more chance to pay up and if they don't then make use of the cycle insurance to chase it.


----------



## simon the viking (31 Dec 2013)

The no insurance puts a whole new spin (forgive the pun) on this thread


----------



## benb (31 Dec 2013)

Milzy said:


> Because you have a duty of self preservation & the OP thought, ''I better be careful here'' & they ''STILL'' ended up under the wheel''. Going back to the holding a door open thing, that's how it should have been in this situation. I make eye contact with the driver & make sure they'll wait for me to go past. Lucky it's just a wheel & not injuries.



Ah, OK. I thought you were suggesting the driver was somehow not 100% at fault.


----------



## glenn forger (31 Dec 2013)

Go to the cops. If she hasn't reported it she's committed an offence.


----------



## Bobby Mhor (31 Dec 2013)

benb said:


> Why? What can we do with it?



I thought there may be some legal issue of posting the registration plate whilst an ongoing 'dispute'.....


----------



## Wobblers (31 Dec 2013)

Linford said:


> So nothing more than pedantery then ?



Uh, no. Pedantry is pointing out when someone's spelled "pedantry" with two e's. (Sorry, open goal there, I just couldn't resist it )

"Priority" means that one party has _precedence _in a situation - but they still have the absolute obligation to avoid accidents and collisions. That's why the expression "right of way" isn't used - to ensure that the idea that you must give way when required is communicated. Sadly, this is a concept that all too few road users (not just motorists) seem to be unaware of.


----------



## outlash (31 Dec 2013)

It's the drivers' fault. If they hit a pedestrian, then they would be at fault. If they pulled out into the road and got hit by a car, it would be their fault. Why would it be any different if you're on a bike? They're trying to wiggle out of paying so set your insurers onto them.


Tony.


----------



## fossyant (31 Dec 2013)

Well if the car is showing as no insurance, I would phone the driver back and let them know you will be informing both your insurer and the police about the incident. 

Not playing ball, then take them the legal route.


----------



## Linford (31 Dec 2013)

[QUOTE 2846953, member: 45"]It's completely relevant. The HTC clearly states that drivers should concede to others by giving way. It's not about taking priority. You're still looking at it wrong.[/quote]
Giving way and having priority is not the same as right of way as Adrian kindly pointed out


----------



## cd365 (31 Dec 2013)

fossyant said:


> Well if the car is showing as no insurance, I would phone the driver back and let them know you will be informing both your insurer and the police about the incident.
> 
> Not playing ball, then take them the legal route.


+1


----------



## 400bhp (31 Dec 2013)

Come on Betty we need an update.


----------



## fossyant (31 Dec 2013)

He is out getting rat ar$ed I bet by now.


----------



## srw (31 Dec 2013)

[QUOTE 2847356, member: 45"]
Shall we ask him to now move on to explaining giving way?[/quote]
It's what you do when it's too much work or too boring to explain what you mean.


----------



## JamesTaylor02 (31 Dec 2013)

I agree with anyone suggesting that the "husband" has no standing in the situation; he did not witness the incident unfold so that alone wouldn't legally stand. I also do think that the driver apologising suggests immediately that it was the driver's fault, I'm pretty sure that it doesn't hold anything in the eyes of the law but just her apologising shows how guilty she is in this incident.


----------



## betty swollocks (31 Dec 2013)

I have texted the person I believe to be the husband and advised him that I believe the driver of the car to be wholly at fault. The phone number I was originally given, is I understand, that of the daughter, who was in the passenger seat of the car at the time.
I have given them one week to pay up, or I will take the matter further.


----------



## betty swollocks (31 Dec 2013)

JamesTaylor02 said:


> I agree with anyone suggesting that the "husband" has no standing in the situation; he did not witness the incident unfold so that alone wouldn't legally stand. I also do think that the driver apologising suggests immediately that it was the driver's fault, I'm pretty sure that it doesn't hold anything in the eyes of the law but just her apologising shows how guilty she is in this incident.


I have retained the text message with her apology on it, although I understand (see my previous post) that this message came from the phone of the daughter who was in the passenger seat at the time of the incident.


----------



## JamesTaylor02 (31 Dec 2013)

betty swollocks said:


> I have retained the text message with her apology on it, although I understand (see my previous post) that this message came from the phone of the daughter who was in the passenger seat at the time of the incident.



Seems odd that it was the daughter's phone number that was given? I suppose it doesn't matter really, as long as you can both negotiate, but it does seem odd that the woman was unable/unwilling to give her own phone number? 



betty swollocks said:


> I have texted the person I believe to be the husband and advised him that I believe the driver of the car to be wholly at fault. The phone number I was originally given, is I understand, that of the daughter, who was in the passenger seat of the car at the time.
> I have given them one week to pay up, or I will take the matter further.



Good to know you've got on top of it and taking control of the problem. With how the incident seems to have played out, you should be in a good standing and you're in a good position to have made the demands that you have – they are reasonable, don't get me wrong! 

Hopefully it doesn't end up with your insurers, it only drags things out longer than they should do, but I'm sure that it would result in the outcome that you're after!


----------



## steveindenmark (1 Jan 2014)

Betty, this is only my opinion.

Text messaging is not the way to go about solving this problem. If I were the other party I would be thinking that I had you backing off because you were afraid to talk to me on the phone. If I were them I would totally ignore your SMS.

I would certainly ring the up and ask to speak to the driver, not the husband. The wife is hiding behind her man.

Have some bullet points written down in front of you so you can tell her the score from beginning to end so she knows the score.

At the minute it appears you are both hiding behind a phone. If you think you are right I would get right in their faces, right now. Otherwise this will probably end up going nowhere.

I would be fuming if I were in your position. Not just because of the accident but mainly because theses people are trying to jerk you around.

As for those of you who are squabbling about right of way and give way, you are not helping this post.

Steve


----------



## Inthecup (1 Jan 2014)

I've just recently sued somebody (& won). 

Send a nice letter recorded stating your points and demands. If no reply send another staying that you are either going through small claims or insurer and give a deadline for a reply. This usually budges people! 

For the sake of £100 I would imagine they would pay out as the xs for their insurance will probably be a lot higher than this.


----------



## Cubist (1 Jan 2014)

glenn forger said:


> Go to the cops. If she hasn't reported it she's committed an offence.


Not true I'm afraid. The only obligation to report a collision to the police is if the driver of the car was unable to furnish details at the time.


----------



## steve52 (1 Jan 2014)

any of the no win no fee peeps would love this,its a no brainer, she lives there and knows its a cycle path, and has fail in her duty of care to check for peds or bikes, and there insurane will payout quickly to reduce costs


----------



## Sara_H (1 Jan 2014)

If the driver is being arkward I would be considering going to the police. If she's not insured I would definitely be going to the police.


----------



## deanE (1 Jan 2014)

steveindenmark said:


> The driver was at fault.
> 
> First thing is be professional.
> 
> ...


All above ok, except for the “white lie”. Keep to the truth and you can’t go wrong.


----------



## glenn forger (1 Jan 2014)

Cubist said:


> Not true I'm afraid. The only obligation to report a collision to the police is if the driver of the car was unable to furnish details at the time.



Different if injury was caused, I see:

http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/legal-advice/at-the-accident.html


----------



## Dan B (1 Jan 2014)

steveindenmark said:


> Betty, this is only my opinion.
> 
> Text messaging is not the way to go about solving this problem. If I were the other party I would be thinking that I had you backing off because you were afraid to talk to me on the phone. If I were them I would totally ignore your SMS.


Trouble with voice calls is that - unless you are recording it - there's nothing to stop the other party from subsequently lying about what they said. SMS or written communication doesn't have that issue so much

I use this android app: 
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.skvalex.callrecorder&hl=en
but it's quite finicky about which phones it works on, so try it first to make sure it records both sides of the conversation before you rely on it for anything


----------



## Sara_H (1 Jan 2014)

Dan B said:


> Trouble with voice calls is that - unless you are recording it - there's nothing to stop the other party from subsequently lying about what they said. SMS or written communication doesn't have that issue so much
> 
> I use this android app:
> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.skvalex.callrecorder&hl=en
> but it's quite finicky about which phones it works on, so try it first to make sure it records both sides of the conversation before you rely on it for anything


Interesting. We have a voice recorder on the landline, which we first bought when my insurance company had cocked up my cover (they'd cancelled it without telling me and didn't find out til I needed to claim) we started recording all the conversations because they were being slippery. It's come in handy a few times since, whem having conversations about legal and contractural stuff.I didn't realise you could get recorders for mobile phones.


----------



## steveindenmark (1 Jan 2014)

Dan,

This issue is not going to get sorted by texting.

The initial call would be so Betty could tell them what action she is going to take if they don't pay up. The other party could lie their sock off or say whatever they wanted, it would make no difference.

Once Betty has shown that she can't be messed about with, they may even just pay up. If they refuse she could go straight down the legal avenue.

This call does not need to be recorded. It would not be admissible in any type of court case I know of.

Steve


----------



## steveindenmark (1 Jan 2014)

I am not sure Betty has an address Adrian. Just a mobile number. But a detailed letter is a good option if she does have an address.

Steve


----------



## jarlrmai (1 Jan 2014)

You are on shaky ground with just a mobile number here, you have the plate which is good. but if they refuse to communicate you may only have the option of the police who may not co-operate.


----------



## betty swollocks (1 Jan 2014)

Once again: thank you for all the good advice.
I will ring them tomorrow.


----------



## fabregas485 (1 Jan 2014)

'I am afraid it looks to be the drivers fault'

Sorry could not resist.


----------



## 400bhp (1 Jan 2014)

User13710 said:


> Slightly OT but has the law changed? I thought it was illegal to record someone's phone conversation without making them aware that they are being recorded?



I thought it was not as strong as that, more you cannot use it as evidence (civil or criminal)?


----------



## srw (1 Jan 2014)

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/static/archive/oftel/consumer/advice/faqs/prvfaq3.htm

According to OfCom you as an individual can record the call for your own use without consent, but can't then make it available to a third party. I am not a lawyer, but I'd have thought that an insurance company, the police or a lawyer would count as a third party.


----------



## cyberknight (1 Jan 2014)

Not sure if someone has suggested this but is the OP a member of the CTC/BC and they have specialist legal advice and solicitors for this sort of thing?


----------



## Sara_H (1 Jan 2014)

User13710 said:


> Slightly OT but has the law changed? I thought it was illegal to record someone's phone conversation without making them aware that they are being recorded?


Most of the conversations I've recorded have been with companies who play you a message first warning you that the call is being recorded, so they're obviously already aware that it's being recorded. I had great pleasure once in replying to some really snotty woman who said something along the lines of "I must remind you I am recording this conversation" "Yes, so am I"!


----------



## betty swollocks (1 Jan 2014)

Oh BTW, they have given me their address, or a address.


----------



## betty swollocks (1 Jan 2014)

cyberknight said:


> Not sure if someone has suggested this but is the OP a member of the CTC/BC and they have specialist legal advice and solicitors for this sort of thing?


Yes. I am a member of 'British Cycling' and have their package of documents for legal help.


----------



## cyberknight (1 Jan 2014)

User13710 said:


> As no one was hurt, the lawyers are unlikely to be interested, as @martint235 has already said.


Thanks , i started skim reading after a few pages so missed that .


----------



## classic33 (1 Jan 2014)

steveindenmark said:


> I am not sure Betty has an address Adrian. Just a mobile number. But a detailed letter is a good option if she does have an address.
> 
> Steve


 Address can be gained by contacting the DVLA for the keepers/owners details. Pointing out that they were involved in a collision with the vehicle. Owner would have to declare who was driving it at the time.


----------



## Cubist (1 Jan 2014)

glenn forger said:


> Different if injury was caused, I see:
> 
> http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/legal-advice/at-the-accident.html


It's only different inasmuch as the driver must furnish the name of his insurers. 

There is only a need to report to the police if the driver cannot give their details (name of the driver, name of the keeper and index mark of the car, plus insurance company if, and only if, a person other than the driver has been injured.)


----------



## glenn forger (1 Jan 2014)

Oh, ta.


----------

