# Motorcycles in bus lanes - update



## Twenty Inch (23 Jul 2008)

I've started a new thread as User and Lindorf Horsebox have parasitised the old one. Please guys, keep it off this thread, OK?

Copy of TFL's response to my email:

"I would like to thank you for your email to the Mayor dated 23 May 2008. The Mayor's office has asked that we reply to your email regarding motorcycles in bus lanes. I sincerely apologise for the delay in our reply to you and I fully appreciate your patience as we have been addressing this matter.

I note and regret your opposition to the introduction of motorcycles into bus lanes; however, the Mayor wishes to further encourage modal shift away from the private car and believes that motorcycles have an important role to play in this. 

In highlighting and clarifying a general misconception, the Mayor has jurisdiction over the Transport for London Road Network (TLRN), commonly known as the 'Red Routes', which makes up only 5% of roads in London. Therefore, he has only authorised the use of motorcycles in bus lanes on these roads. The remaining roads are the responsibility of the respective boroughs and the decision to allow motorcycles into these bus lanes rests with them.

Please be assured that we will continually review the use of motorcycles in bus lanes. Furthermore, we will make every effort to encourage a good relationship between cyclists and motorcyclists.

Once again, thank you for your interest in this matter and I hope that the information that I have provided has been helpful to you. Should you require assistance with any further issues, please feel free to contact me."

Not sure what this means for London cyclists. We could contact our local boroughs' highways departments to make sure that they know of our opposition to this. Does anyone know whether this is happening via LCC for instance?


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## zimzum42 (23 Jul 2008)

"our opposition" ??????

I think it's a good idea, never had a problem with bikers in the bus lane myself. Those who complain about it strike me as being those who complain about absolutely every other road user who's not on a bicycle

Bikes are great, but you'll never persuade everyone to feel the same. In the meantime, if ideas like this get more people out of cars, then I'm all for it.


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## tdr1nka (23 Jul 2008)

Interesting read that 20", I contacted TfL over a red route problem in my area(nothing to do with motorbikes btw)to which they said it was a matter for my local council, when I contacted my local council they tried to put me back to TfL.


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## LLB (23 Jul 2008)

result


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## beanzontoast (24 Jul 2008)

They 'trialled' a joint-use lane on my commute about 18 months ago - it has since become legit. I don't have a problem with motorbikes sharing bus lanes as there aren't that many of them compared to taxis and buses round here, and to be fair, they seem to give me more room generally than the buses at least.


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## Twenty Inch (25 Jul 2008)

I've spoken to a few people - the analysis is that Boris is dithering about it. This should be the time to put pressure on his office, and on London councillors in local boroughs. LCC are doing a little bit, I'll contact CTC too, as if it happens in London it'll open the door to it happening in other cities.


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## LLB (25 Jul 2008)

Twenty Inch said:


> I've spoken to a few people - the analysis is that Boris is dithering about it. This should be the time to put pressure on his office, and on London councillors in local boroughs. LCC are doing a little bit, I'll contact CTC too, as if it happens in London it'll open the door to it happening in other cities.



Bring it on, it will be a victory for common sense.

obviously those who abuse it will fall under the existing laws governing ptw's on the roads.
We are discussing ptw's in bus lanes which are shared with taxi's & buses here & not ptw's in cycle lanes.

My biggest problem is with taxis & private hire on any road. the good thing is that they also drive like knobs in other countries also


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## Halloway (28 Jul 2008)

In Hull, bus lanes are shared with taxis and motorbikes and I am not aware of any problems at all. I ride both cycles and bikes and don't have a problem with sharing road space with either.

I have never had so much as the faintest near miss with a motorbike whilst cycling in urban environments. I wish I could say the same for buses.


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## LLB (28 Jul 2008)

> The CTC view
> 
> http://www.ctc.org.uk/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=4790
> 
> I haven't looked into it yet, so don't necessarily share the opinion.



Feel free to offer your own take on it


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## Bad Company (29 Jul 2008)

> I'd only have a problem with the idiot bikers,



Trouble is there are also idiot car drivers, cyclists, bus drivers etc., etc. Surely the answer is to allow the bikers for a trial period with instructions to police to nick those who abuse the concession??


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## LLB (29 Jul 2008)

Bad Company said:


> Trouble is there are also idiot car drivers, cyclists, bus drivers etc., etc. Surely the answer is to allow the bikers for a trial period with instructions to police to nick those who abuse the concession??



But when the opinion is prejudiced, it is very difficult to change the viewpoint


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## simon l& and a half (29 Jul 2008)

I think the question is this. Do you want more people on bikes or don't you. £140 million has been spent on LCN+ (a network of cycle routes in London) and nobody uses it. Paint a bit of tarmac red and cyclists gather like flies on a dead cat. (I did a motorbike/cyclist count on the way home today - cyclists 200 and stopped counting, motorbikes and scooters 12).

If you make bus lanes uncomfortable for the less assured cyclist (and check the thread in Chat for an illustration) they won't cycle. I'm not too bothered by motorcyclists in bus lanes, but that's not the point - the people we should be concerned for are next years cyclists.

Motorcyclists will complain that this is all very unfair - but that's life. And their emissions are as toxic as anything that comes out of the back of a car.


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## LLB (29 Jul 2008)

simon l& and a half said:


> I think the question is this. Do you want more people on bikes or don't you. £140 million has been spent on LCN+ (a network of cycle routes in London) and nobody uses it. Paint a bit of tarmac red and cyclists gather like flies on a dead cat. (I did a motorbike/cyclist count on the way home today - cyclists 200 and stopped counting, motorbikes and scooters 12).
> 
> If you make bus lanes uncomfortable for the less assured cyclist (and check the thread in Chat for an illustration) they won't cycle. I'm not too bothered by motorcyclists in bus lanes, but that's not the point - the people we should be concerned for are next years cyclists.
> 
> Motorcyclists will complain that this is all very unfair - but that's life. And their emissions are as toxic as anything that comes out of the back of a car.



And what of those who commute beyond a reasonable range which can be expected of a cyclist who doesn't want to spend 4+ hours a day commuting by cycle due to the distance they have to cover ?


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## tdr1nka (29 Jul 2008)

Get a job where you can work from home?


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## LLB (29 Jul 2008)

> Trains are good for that kind of thing.



Not when you have a rural commute, or dislike sharing body odour or farts with other travellers


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## LLB (29 Jul 2008)

tdr1nka said:


> Get a job where you can work from home?



Which does away with the need for cycles in bus lanes also


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## simon l& and a half (30 Jul 2008)

linfordlunchbox said:


> And what of those who commute beyond a reasonable range which can be expected of a cyclist who doesn't want to spend 4+ hours a day commuting by cycle due to the distance they have to cover ?



people make choices. That's life. As I said, fairness doesn't come into it. It's all about utility


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## LLB (30 Jul 2008)

simon l& and a half said:


> people make choices. That's life. As I said, fairness doesn't come into it. It's all about utility



Just because people are forced to take work in the shoot hole which London is, there is nothing to say that they have to want to live there or raise families in it also.

A motorcycle fulfills a role over greater distance which a cycle would struggle to match. Just because you can't see this due to your own choices and circumstances doesn't mean it is not a good solution for others due to theirs.

If the provision for secure motorcycle parking was increased, then a lot more would use it irrespective of whether bus lane access was on the cards.


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## LOGAN 5 (30 Jul 2008)

Twenty Inch said:


> I've started a new thread as User and Lindorf Horsebox have parasitised the old one. Please guys, keep it off this thread, OK?
> 
> Copy of TFL's response to my email:
> 
> ...


Share your views entirely 20". I also wrote to Boris and got the exact same letter you did. I did write another one to follow it up but haven't had a reply, presumably because they've only got one standrad letter to send out to everybody on the subject.

I am going to change my route to avoid my worst bit of multi use bus lane once the weather turns and it gets dark.


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## LLB (5 Aug 2008)

simon l& and a half said:


> I think the question is this. Do you want more people on bikes or don't you. £140 million has been spent on LCN+ (a network of cycle routes in London) and nobody uses it. Paint a bit of tarmac red and cyclists gather like flies on a dead cat. (I did a motorbike/cyclist count on the way home today - cyclists 200 and stopped counting, motorbikes and scooters 12).
> 
> If you make bus lanes uncomfortable for the less assured cyclist (and check the thread in Chat for an illustration) they won't cycle. I'm not too bothered by motorcyclists in bus lanes, but that's not the point - the people we should be concerned for are next years cyclists.
> 
> Motorcyclists will complain that this is all very unfair - but that's life. And their emissions are as toxic as anything that comes out of the back of a car.



Ping Simon 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/content/articles/2007/01/03/motorbikeparking_feature.shtml


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## spindrift (5 Aug 2008)

LOGAN 5 said:


> Share your views entirely 20". I also wrote to Boris and got the exact same letter you did. I did write another one to follow it up but haven't had a reply, presumably because they've only got one standrad letter to send out to everybody on the subject.
> 
> I am going to change my route to avoid my worst bit of multi use bus lane once the weather turns and it gets dark.





It's a dangerous precedent, and I've not once seen Johnson address the alarming fact that motorbikes, despite their rareness compared with vehicles, are twice as likely to injure cyclists.


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## zimzum42 (5 Aug 2008)

Probably cos he's too busy burning all the whingeing letters you send him


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## spindrift (5 Aug 2008)

This is crazy, dangerous and a big mistake. Motorbikes are already a threat to cyclists - eg, at advanced stop lines. Just try getting into the ASL at Angel during rush hour - the motorcyclists bear down on you and weave round cyclists in a thoughtless and very intimidating manner. This is a way to stop those people who are thinking about cycling from getting on a bike and will put off people who have made a first step but are still nervous. Bus routes are essential to cyclists - especially on the busy major roads around London - and opening them to motorbikes/scooters will only increase the number of cyclists injured or killed on London roads.


To me this proposal makes a huge backwards step in terms of increasing the number of cyclists on the road, we are trying to encourage cycling but the number one reason listed as to why people don't take up cycling is due to safety and I can't see how this move will attract new people onto the road and into a bike.

in Bristol they only got motorbikes in bus lanes thanks to some 'inside' campaigning by some bikers on the council and precious little consultation with cyclists. Now motorcyclists think that every piece of red asphalt is for the taking - they barge into the Advanced Stop Line at junctions, use cycle lanes as short cuts and ride in speeds in excess of 30mph in bus lanes (it's an empty racetrack for them!). Pity London cyclists have got to put up with them now.


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## John the Monkey (5 Aug 2008)

linfordlunchbox said:


> obviously those who abuse it will fall under the existing laws governing ptw's on the roads.


True, but the enforcement/punishment will be as lackadaisical and half hearted as it is for the other road laws, I've no doubt.


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## lynx (13 Sep 2008)

I read the comments and I'm quite curious.

If PTW in bus lanes produced such issues as mentioned why have these issues not appeared in the places where PTW are allowed in bus lanes?

Also how many questionnaires were sent by TFL to cyclists to gauge the feeling on this topic? How many were returned?


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## Origamist (13 Sep 2008)

lynx said:


> I read the comments and I'm quite curious.
> 
> If PTW in bus lanes produced such issues as mentioned why have these issues not appeared in the places where PTW are allowed in bus lanes?



In Bristol there were - amazingly - no proper 'before' and 'after' studies, but a subsequent survey of cyclists found that 31% of cyclists had experienced problems with motorbikes in these bus lanes, leading Bristol City Council to conclude 'it appears that the experiment had a measurable effect on cyclists.' Nevertheless the scheme was made permanent, firstly because the local council said it could not afford to remove it. Secondly, the Chief Constable said that after allowing motorbikes into bus lanes it would be too difficult to enforce banning them again. 

http://www.camcycle.org.uk/newsletters/25/article13.html

http://www.asyf99.dsl.pipex.com/info/cpag.html


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## wafflycat (13 Sep 2008)

In Norwich we're about to start a year where a particular type of HGV is going to be allowed into one of the main cycle lanes into the city. There's been massive objection to it from local cyclists but, as usual, Norfolk County Council couldn't give a stuff.


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