# Gels etc



## Fnaar (5 Feb 2016)

Was reading a review from a link off Facebook for some Wiggle gels....

quote: "Each gel provides 22g of carbohydrate (from a 38g sachet), which is generally enough to supplement your fuelling at regular 20 to 30-minute intervals over the course of a three to four-hour ride"

Do people really do this? I take a banana and some water for a 3-4hr ride. More than that and I'll prob'ly stop for a bacon butty or a pie, but I certainly don't supplement every 20-30 minutes... OK, I'm no Brad or Froome, Cav, etc, but....


----------



## Spinney (5 Feb 2016)

Nope.
Well, I may use the excuse of exercising to stuff my face with jelly babies, galaxy minstres, bites of mars bar etc at regular intervals - but that is as much  as the need for nutrition!

Not that I am the speedy kind of cyclist that might need such regular feeding...


----------



## Citius (5 Feb 2016)

Gel makers are primarily interested in selling gels. They are not going to say_ "you don't need them"_....they are going to say _"buy them in big boxes and eat them every 20 minutes"..."and then buy another big box"....(continue ad nauseam, or until you throw up - usually both)..._


----------



## Spinney (5 Feb 2016)

I tried a gel once - given away on a sportive. Really hated the texture of it. It wouldn't have taken more than one to make me want to throw up!


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (5 Feb 2016)

Yes people really do "do" that which is sad in general but a great money maker for the producing companies.


----------



## Tin Pot (5 Feb 2016)

Fnaar said:


> Was reading a review from a link off Facebook for some Wiggle gels....
> 
> quote: "Each gel provides 22g of carbohydrate (from a 38g sachet), which is generally enough to supplement your fuelling at regular 20 to 30-minute intervals over the course of a three to four-hour ride"
> 
> Do people really do this? I take a banana and some water for a 3-4hr ride. More than that and I'll prob'ly stop for a bacon butty or a pie, but I certainly don't supplement every 20-30 minutes... OK, I'm no Brad or Froome, Cav, etc, but....


They weren't designed for fun, they were designed to overcome the problem of digesting food whilst exercising hard - something we have not evolved to do. We naturally stop to eat, and blood is diverted to the digestive system and away from limbs.

If you're burning 2,000 calories an hour for ten or more hours, you'll want to squeeze a few grams of carbs in and gels and liquid carbs are a good way to achieve this.

Personally I think people who can't stomach a few gels are a bunch of pussies and need to HTFU. What are you, men or delicate flowers? Pfft.

Bananas are fine for going out with a few mates for three or four hours.


----------



## Spinney (5 Feb 2016)

Tin Pot said:


> Personally I think people who can't stomach a few gels are a bunch of pussies and need to HTFU.* What are you, men or delicate flowers?* Pfft.


----------



## MikeW-71 (6 Feb 2016)

Fnaar said:


> Was reading a review from a link off Facebook for some Wiggle gels....
> 
> quote: "Each gel provides 22g of carbohydrate (from a 38g sachet), which is generally enough to supplement your fuelling at regular 20 to 30-minute intervals over the course of a three to four-hour ride"
> 
> Do people really do this? I take a banana and some water for a 3-4hr ride. More than that and I'll prob'ly stop for a bacon butty or a pie, but I certainly don't supplement every 20-30 minutes... OK, I'm no Brad or Froome, Cav, etc, but....


They're for racing really IMO, or if you're really pushing it and can't/don't want to stop.

If you are really pushing it, then every 30mins is probably needed. The thing is that most of us leisure/pleasure riders aren't really pushing it (much as we might think we are) and we'll do absolutely fine with a banana and some water (or whatever you prefer)

I do sometimes take them with me, but I don't buy them, I take advantage of freebies.  I put one in a pocket for "emergency", and it has always come back with me uneaten so far.


----------



## Bollo (6 Feb 2016)

I thought this thread was going to be about posh young ladies.


----------



## BSRU (6 Feb 2016)

Whilst watching the mens world road championships in Richmond Chris Boardman talked about food stating he ate real food for the first part of the race but changed to gels only when the racing got serious near the end. He also didn't understand why sportive riders used gels at all.


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (6 Feb 2016)

BSRU said:


> Whilst watching the mens world road chanpionships in Richmond Chris Boardman talked about food stating he ate real food for the first part of the race but changed to gels only when the racing got serious near the end. He also didn't understand why sportive riders used gels at all.


One sportive I did here a few years back had a marquee lined with tables, the tables were stacked with clif bars***/bloks/shots etc etc, 2000+ cyclists passed through, try making sandwiches or buttering pancakes for those numbers with a small group of volunteers.

***Most of these were full of nuts so off limits to me. 90miles @19avg that day with no food was the result.

I've driven support car for my clubs Ulster 100Mile TT riders, 1 bottle every second lap, each with 2 gels attached. Two weeks later I drove one of 2 support cars on my clubs sportive, the feed station was resplendant in sandwiches, fig rolls, flap jacks, bananas etc.... Not a gel in sight ( I had them + gallons of water to give out at a certain point for riders doing the longer harder route)


----------



## helston90 (6 Feb 2016)

I like the convenience of gels, you can stuff a load of them in your pocket without too much effort, would always take proper food- one sportive I did last year had a feed station at a National Trust garden- there was pasta pots, home made quiches, flapjacks, it was great- but the fork and pot didn't work too well whilst riding along. (they were also fully stocked with banana's, gels and bars to take away).


----------



## Fnaar (6 Feb 2016)

I suppose it's all relative, I'm guessing my ability to keep going towards the end of a ride isn't like Boardman's  And I'm not racing, of course, except against my own concept of a decent time.
I've only ever used freebies, two sachets of which sat in my cupboard for a year before I thought of trying them out.


----------



## Tin Pot (6 Feb 2016)

Fnaar said:


> I suppose it's all relative, I'm guessing my ability to keep going towards the end of a ride isn't like Boardman's  And I'm not racing, of course, except against my own concept of a decent time.
> I've only ever used freebies, two sachets of which sat in my cupboard for a year before I thought of trying them out.



It is relative - to the effort, not to the fitness.
.


----------



## Bollo (6 Feb 2016)

Tin Pot said:


> Personally I think people who can't stomach a few gels are a bunch of pussies and need to HTFU. What are you, men or delicate flowers? Pfft.
> .


Which makes me a delicate woodland orchid with my own SSSI. I have a huge problem eating on rides as my guts just shut down. I can bang out a hardish 80miles on water and weak sports drink, but after that I start to have problems. I can't stand bananas and gels make me gag. I'd love to stuff a bacon buttie down my chops but that would threaten both ends. About the only thing that works is a Marathon (aka Snickers to the young' ns) where my love of sh1t chocolate just about pursuades my stomach to play nice.


----------



## Tin Pot (6 Feb 2016)

Bollo said:


> I can't stand bananas and gels make me gag.



My point exactly!


----------



## Katherine (6 Feb 2016)

Jelly babies are much more palatable. 
If you want something more substantial, but it's too warm for chocolate that will melt, try the range of Nakd bars as they are really easy to digest.


----------



## Fnaar (6 Feb 2016)

I don't do that many Sportives...mainly just the one, which I have done 8 yrs in a row; planning to branch out a bit and do some more.
During the last one I did, I'd had enough of the sweet taste of bars and bananas, so needing something savoury, I popped into a Co-Op for a Scotch egg and pork pie


----------



## Citius (6 Feb 2016)

Katherine said:


> Jelly babies are much more palatable.



Yep - made from the skin, bones and tissue of cows, pigs, chickens and horses, with added sugar and formed into the shape of human children. Sounds great


----------



## Montydog (6 Feb 2016)

Citius said:


> Yep - made from the skin, bones and tissue of cows, pigs, chickens and horses, with added sugar and formed into the shape of human children. Sounds great


----------



## deptfordmarmoset (6 Feb 2016)

Tin Pot said:


> ....We naturally stop to eat....


Not being competitive, this ever so slightly edited bit from your post makes complete sense to me. So I'll eat when I stop. And I've given up taking bananas - it's only when I get home and I wonder why my jersey is still heavy - and I find a gooey black turd in my pocket.


----------



## winjim (6 Feb 2016)

Space food!


----------



## Tin Pot (6 Feb 2016)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> Not being competitive, this ever so slightly edited bit from your post makes complete sense to me. So I'll eat when I stop. And I've given up taking bananas - it's only when I get home and I wonder why my jersey is still heavy - and I find a gooey black turd in my pocket.


----------



## bozmandb9 (6 Feb 2016)

Fnaar said:


> Was reading a review from a link off Facebook for some Wiggle gels....
> 
> quote: "Each gel provides 22g of carbohydrate (from a 38g sachet), which is generally enough to supplement your fuelling at regular 20 to 30-minute intervals over the course of a three to four-hour ride"
> 
> Do people really do this? I take a banana and some water for a 3-4hr ride. More than that and I'll prob'ly stop for a bacon butty or a pie, but I certainly don't supplement every 20-30 minutes... OK, I'm no Brad or Froome, Cav, etc, but....


Most Sunday rides I've done lately I've done as fasted rides, so nothing whatsoever till 11.30/Midday (9am start). Going to try eating beforehand though, since I found it hard going last couple of rides.


----------



## ayceejay (6 Feb 2016)

I know you are all going to hate me for this but:riding a bike requires energy now where does the energy come from?


----------



## Citius (6 Feb 2016)

That's a tough one...


----------



## StuAff (6 Feb 2016)

No idea......


----------



## Tin Pot (7 Feb 2016)

It's zero point energy.


----------



## Citius (7 Feb 2016)

or Tesla's free energy....


----------



## Tin Pot (7 Feb 2016)

Middle class angst provides enough power for a hundred thousand cycles.


----------



## bozmandb9 (7 Feb 2016)

ayceejay said:


> I know you are all going to hate me for this but:riding a bike requires energy now where does the energy come from?


Sadly many of us have plenty of 'stored energy' reserves. That's why I do the fasted rides, though technically I'm way outside the optimal fat burning zone. Nice theory though, if it worked.


----------



## winjim (7 Feb 2016)

ayceejay said:


> I know you are all going to hate me for this but:riding a bike requires energy now where does the energy come from?


Nuclear fusion.


----------



## Tin Pot (7 Feb 2016)

bozmandb9 said:


> Sadly many of us have plenty of 'stored energy' reserves. That's why I do the fasted rides, though technically I'm way outside the optimal fat burning zone. Nice theory though, if it worked.


No, all of us do. 

If you think that because you are fatter than some, that you don't need glucose to optimise exercise then you simply haven't yet learned enough about exercise.

We all have X amount of glycogen floating around our muscles at any given time. We start exercising and we all start running out of it. Our bodies start converting other sources of energy into glycogen as we run out, but this is not efficient and consequently our muscles cannot perform as well. Because they are not performing as well, we don't get the exercise we are trying to achieve to build them.

This is as true for you as it is for an Olympian.


----------



## bozmandb9 (7 Feb 2016)

Tin Pot said:


> No, all of us do.
> 
> If you think that because you are fatter than some, that you don't need glucose to optimise exercise then you simply haven't yet learned enough about exercise.
> 
> ...



I'm afraid I must disagree with you Tin Pot. If you take my fasted rides as an example, I do the ride (30-50 miles). It is conceivable that I may ride slightly faster if I were 'glucose optimised', however it's a group ride, really it would make no difference. However if I had glucose optimised, I would almost certainly burn less fat than I do by riding fasted.

I do get what you're saying, however you must see my point about burning fat, as an alternative to glucose optimisation. We run out of glucose, and one of the sources of energy (which is not as efficient admittedly), is excess body fat.


----------



## ayceejay (7 Feb 2016)

Actually this is a still unploughed furrow and one that needs a lot more attention. The reason for my enigmatic post is that there is a common belief fostered by energy food makers that a rider starts empty and like an old steam train needs to fuel up as they go and I don't thing this is true.


----------



## User32269 (7 Feb 2016)

Citius said:


> Yep - made from the skin, bones and tissue of cows, pigs, chickens and horses, with added sugar and formed into the shape of human children. Sounds great


And you wonder why we took you off the Bassett's advertising account?!


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (8 Feb 2016)

On a similar note *pulls the pin lobs grenade and runs*


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4M7RJog2nU


----------



## Tin Pot (8 Feb 2016)

bozmandb9 said:


> I'm afraid I must disagree with you Tin Pot. If you take my fasted rides as an example, I do the ride (30-50 miles). It is conceivable that I may ride slightly faster if I were 'glucose optimised', however it's a group ride, really it would make no difference. However if I had glucose optimised, I would almost certainly burn less fat than I do by riding fasted.
> 
> I do get what you're saying, however you must see my point about burning fat, as an alternative to glucose optimisation. We run out of glucose, and one of the sources of energy (which is not as efficient admittedly), is excess body fat.



I'm not sure where you are disagreeing.

The point I'm making is that your muscles won't work as hard, so you won't see as much fitness benefit as if you did consume glucose.

I'm not saying that you don't burn fat.


----------



## ayceejay (8 Feb 2016)

Like I said this is a dangerous game to play especially when you have GCN as cheerleaders. Watch the video and tell me if they are saying to eat fat because this will fuel your ride or the your ride can be fuelled by fat stored on your body? One thing they did say that I agree with and that is metabolism is not a one size fits all deal so one person could ride on water only but another may need something more so be wary of general advice.


----------



## Cuchilo (8 Feb 2016)

ayceejay said:


> I know you are all going to hate me for this but:riding a bike requires energy now where does the energy come from?


British Gas .


----------



## Tin Pot (8 Feb 2016)

I don't think GCN are trying to be reliable sports medical advisers.

Science on the other hand...


----------



## Tin Pot (8 Feb 2016)

ayceejay said:


> Actually this is a still unploughed furrow and one that needs a lot more attention. The reason for my enigmatic post is that there is a common belief fostered by energy food makers that a rider starts empty and like an old steam train needs to fuel up as they go and I don't thing this is true.



There's a few hundred grams of glycogen stored in muscle tissue in an average healthy person. This gets burned up quicker as we exercise harder.

I often do "fasted" commutes. I get on the train for two hours _without eating anything_. I almost always do "fasted" working: going two, three maybe even four hours "fasted" before eating again.

Sometimes I do "fasted" walks to the shops - but only if I'm feeling lucky.

Even with a lot of people trying to use evidence and science, there's a lot of nonsense around.

When you are exercising hard, an average adult will burn through those stores calories pretty quickly. I burn ~900 calories per hour cycling, ~1,300 calories running. My performance, and any other human beings* performance, will tail off as the muscles run out of glycogen, and my body starts to find other sources of glycogen. With no glycogen immediately available my muscles start to slow, my performance reduces, and consequently the fitness benefits tail off. Muscular endurance is built by a series of stresses put on and recoveries of the muscles. I can no longer stress them as I am out of glycogen. The exercise benefits are evaporating.

As my body starts to convert fat to glycogen, at a much lower level of efficiency, I start to get a supply of glycogen to my muscles again - instead of shutting down completely, they can keep going at a much reduced stress and effectiveness.

None of this is affected by how thin or fat I am.


*Recent studies show some evidence that "fat adaptation" over a long period can increase metabolic efficiency of utilising fat as a glycogen source, this means that you can train your body to get more glycogen from a gram of fat, and that you don't need to have the cutover from glucose sources to fat sources untrained people would have. You cannot become metabolically efficient with fat by the occasional "fasted" ride.

There is no evidence that fat adaptation improves performance. There is tons of evidence that taking in carbs while exercising does improve performance.

There are potential benefits from less dependence on carbohydrates for athletes - dental health and diabetes being current concerns. this is not to say that a diet weighted towards fat is without health concerns.


----------



## Bollo (8 Feb 2016)

Just to throw something else into the mixer (a recovery drink perhaps) I listened to this on Radio 4 today. It's worth a listen if you have an interest in nutrition and endurance sports. Charcoal yoghurt anyone?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06zqd89


----------



## Tin Pot (9 Feb 2016)

Bollo said:


> Just to throw something else into the mixer (a recovery drink perhaps) I listened to this on Radio 4 today. It's worth a listen if you have an interest in nutrition and endurance sports. Charcoal yoghurt anyone?
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06zqd89



That and the first episode are fair coverage - but there's a lot of ideas being explored in nutrition at the moment.

This podcast is quite interesting and dispels a few myths reminding people of the basics of eating we seem to have forgot.

https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/endurance-planet/id73330188?mt=2&i=362408712


----------



## Andrew_P (9 Feb 2016)

Tin Pot said:


> Personally I think people who can't stomach a few gels are a bunch of pussies and need to HTFU. What are you, men or delicate flowers? Pfft.


 I missed lunch a while back and had on my desk a SiS Gel which was given to me for free so rather than eat and then ride straight after I thought what the heck. Believe me if you want to ride anywhere near me post Gel you are more than welcome to give it a go, you certainly wouldn't want to be in my "draft"

Horrible things, I think it was the sweeteners that did me in, but I couldn't wait to get home.


----------



## iandg (9 Feb 2016)

I carry a couple in case I bonk but generally fuel my rides (audax upto 600km) on proper food at cafes plus sandwiches, dried apricots, and nakd bars between stops if needed.


----------



## Montydog (9 Feb 2016)

if you think they work for you then use them.....simples


----------



## bozmandb9 (9 Feb 2016)

Tin Pot said:


> There's a few hundred grams of glycogen stored in muscle tissue in an average healthy person. This gets burned up quicker as we exercise harder.
> 
> I often do "fasted" commutes. I get on the train for two hours _without eating anything_. I almost always do "fasted" working: going two, three maybe even four hours "fasted" before eating again.
> 
> ...



I'd love some more expert advice Tin Pot. I've only managed to get down to 10-15% bodyfat from over 30% using my primitive knowledge, and I've found my progress in Masters Athletics has plateau'd at around top 50 UK in my events. I'm keen to get below 10% bodyfat, and top ten, in addition to transitioning from sprint to middle distance.

Please enlighten me further on why my fasted rides aren't working ;-)


----------



## Tin Pot (9 Feb 2016)

bozmandb9 said:


> I'd love some more expert advice Tin Pot. I've only managed to get down to 10-15% bodyfat from over 30% using my primitive knowledge, and I've found my progress in Masters Athletics has plateau'd at around top 50 UK in my events. I'm keen to get below 10% bodyfat, and top ten, in addition to transitioning from sprint to middle distance.
> 
> Please enlighten me further on why my fasted rides aren't working ;-)



Ha - you havent understood a word! All you've read is "TP is trying to undermine my worldview".


----------



## bozmandb9 (10 Feb 2016)

Tin Pot said:


> Ha - you havent understood a word! All you've read is "TP is trying to undermine my worldview".


That's why I say 'enlighten me oh font of all knowledge'!

(Oh, and the world is slightly larger than cycling/ training nutrition!)


----------



## Tin Pot (10 Feb 2016)

bozmandb9 said:


> That's why I say 'enlighten me oh font of all knowledge'!
> 
> (Oh, and the world is slightly larger than cycling/ training nutrition!)



Well done on the fitness by the way.

Perhaps we can agree that pancakes make a great post ride meal? 

I'm arguing for fueling muscles during exercise for the optimum training benefit and race performance.

I'm not making points about weight or fat loss.

Have you been training for fat adaptation, or just the occasional fasted ride?


----------



## Dogtrousers (10 Feb 2016)

Tin Pot said:


> Perhaps we can agree that pancakes make a great post ride meal?


Not to mention a post-ride facepack.


----------



## tyred (10 Feb 2016)

Steak and kidney pie taste nicer


----------



## e-rider (10 Feb 2016)

if you cycle 200 miles as fast as you can, you'll eat anything you can get your hands on!


----------



## derrick (10 Feb 2016)

Normal club rides up to 50 miles you really don't need them, All my big rides i eat proper food. But if it makes you feel good use them.


----------



## ayceejay (10 Feb 2016)

_I'm arguing for fueling muscles during exercise for the optimum training benefit and race performance._
If a person eats a balanced diet that (average) person would have enough stored energy to ride a bike or run hard for about 90 minutes without any further changes in diet, the only needs during the ride would be fluids to avoid dehydration. As you train, your body's ability to deal with the metabolic changes will increase and is a benefit of cardio vascular fitness (i.e. aerobic exercise). Eating during a training ride of less than 90 minutes would be counter productive. Riding while fasting should not be encouraged IMO due to the dangers involved.


----------



## derrick (10 Feb 2016)

e-rider said:


> if you cycle 200 miles as fast as you can, you'll eat anything you can get your hands on!


On this ride the club had food on the wagon mostly pasta. and a supposed to be healthy pizza, which i really have trouble eating, when we got to Cromer our last fuel stop my wife got me a nice bit of gala pie, that gave me and a few of the other riders the boost we needed to finish the ride, Just keep drinking.
https://www.strava.com/activities/301362611


----------



## Tin Pot (10 Feb 2016)

ayceejay said:


> _I'm arguing for fueling muscles during exercise for the optimum training benefit and race performance._
> If a person eats a balanced diet that (average) person would have enough stored energy to ride a bike or run hard* for about 90 minutes without any further changes in diet, the only needs during the ride would be fluids to avoid dehydration. As you train, your body's ability to deal with the metabolic changes will increase and is a benefit of cardio vascular fitness (i.e. aerobic exercise). Eating during a training ride of less than 90 minutes would be counter productive. Riding while fasting should not be encouraged IMO due to the dangers involved.



Indeed.

And to add to that there is a difference between needing fuel, and benefiting from fuel.

Athletes have experimented with marathons sans fuel, sans water - they can complete the distance. They don't _need_ anything extra. Are they putting in their best times? No. 

*Moderately, not hard, according to most sources. Whatever that means


----------



## ayceejay (10 Feb 2016)

I don't understand that Tin Pot - what is the difference between needing and benefiting in this context?


----------



## Tin Pot (10 Feb 2016)

ayceejay said:


> I don't understand that Tin Pot - what is the difference between needing and benefiting in this context?



Well, let's say bozmandb9 is doing a fasted ride for 90mins to work or with his mates on a Sunday ride. He's fine without taking any other fuel. He doesn't need it.

Let's say that ride is a 3hr time trial. He can still turn up and finish, he's not going to die without fuel - he doesn't need it. But to put in his best performance, taking a gel on the hour gets those extra watts out of his muscles - he benefits from it.

Let's say the ride is part of an Ironman event, he'd be mad not to eat something. He needs it.


I read a lot of rhetoric of people saying "you don't need" something. Which can be true, but it doesn't mean you won't benefit from it.


----------



## ayceejay (10 Feb 2016)

Tin Pot said:


> Well, let's say bozmandb9 is doing a fasted ride for 90mins to work or with his mates on a Sunday ride. He's fine without taking any other fuel. He doesn't need it.
> 
> Let's say that ride is a 3hr time trial. He can still turn up and finish, he's not going to die without fuel - he doesn't need it. But to put in his best performance, taking a gel on the hour gets those extra watts out of his muscles - he benefits from it.
> 
> ...



Just to clarify, in my book a 'fasted ride' as you call it, would be one undertaken first thing in the morning after not eating for at least eight hours. Unless you have a different definition, there is no way anyone could ride a 3 hr time trial (whatever that is) in those conditions.


----------



## Tin Pot (10 Feb 2016)

ayceejay said:


> Just to clarify, in my book a 'fasted ride' as you call it, would be one undertaken first thing in the morning after not eating for at least eight hours. Unless you have a different definition, there is no way anyone could ride a 3 hr time trial (whatever that is) in those conditions.


Sure


----------



## ayceejay (10 Feb 2016)

Meaning?


----------



## Tin Pot (10 Feb 2016)

ayceejay said:


> Meaning?



I accept your point, but I dont think it really changes the point I was making clarifying the difference between need and benefit...that still makes sense, right?


----------



## stephec (11 Feb 2016)

Andrew_P said:


> I missed lunch a while back and had on my desk a SiS Gel which was given to me for free so rather than eat and then ride straight after I thought what the heck. Believe me if you want to ride anywhere near me post Gel you are more than welcome to give it a go, you certainly wouldn't want to be in my "draft"
> 
> Horrible things, I think it was the sweeteners that did me in,_* but I couldn't wait to get home.*_



See, it did make you faster on your commute.


----------



## Blue Hills (20 Feb 2016)

MikeW-71 said:


> They're for racing really IMO, or if you're really pushing it and can't/don't want to stop.
> 
> If you are really pushing it, then every 30mins is probably needed. The thing is that most of us leisure/pleasure riders aren't really pushing it (much as we might think we are) and we'll do absolutely fine with a banana and some water (or whatever you prefer)
> 
> I do sometimes take them with me, but I don't buy them, I take advantage of freebies.  I put one in a pocket for "emergency", and it has always come back with me uneaten so far.


Yes I think you only really need a single one, for dire emergencies like the bonk. I haven't used one for ages. Mine may have turned into something interesting by now.


----------

