# Islington, Cyclist stabbed



## Brains (28 Feb 2015)

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...nquiry-after-teenage-cyclist-stabbed-to-death
Horrible story: as reading between the lines it would appear the "3 men" were out to steal the 3 boys bikes,
Killed for a what was probably a BSO ? On, or very close to a main road


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## growingvegetables (28 Feb 2015)

Doesn't bear thinking about - so young. RIP and condolences to the lad's family and friends.


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## Andy Roadie (1 Mar 2015)

Why haven't the Police released a description of the suspects?


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## flake99please (1 Mar 2015)

Truly awful news for that young boys family. RIP.


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## Brains (1 Mar 2015)

Andy Roadie said:


> Why haven't the Police released a description of the suspects?



You also would have thought the descriptions of the two stolen bikes would be all over the web, as they would now almost literally be too hot to handle.
(Unless the Met already have a very good idea of whodunnit)


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## i hate hills (2 Mar 2015)

What is the world coming to ?????? Thoughts with the lads family...


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## derrick (3 Mar 2015)

Something needs to be done.
RIP.


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## young Ed (3 Mar 2015)

tragic, truly awful! terrible for all his friends and family.
RIP
Ed


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## deptfordmarmoset (3 Mar 2015)

There's CCTV pictures here - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-31706312 - for those with the appetite to watch.


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## Brains (3 Mar 2015)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> There's CCTV pictures here - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-31706312 - for those with the appetite to watch.


That could be any London cyclist.
I've cycled down that road, as it's the link between the two sections of the Regents Canal path where it goes through a boats only tunnel


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## mustang1 (3 Mar 2015)

Ffs

I only just read about this in the Standard. Ffs. What a bunch of sh1theads. Wtf. 

Is it my imagination or there really more crime these days?


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## Smokin Joe (3 Mar 2015)

I hope they get the excuses for human beings who did this -

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...abbed-chest-cycled-friends-London-street.html


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## vickster (3 Mar 2015)

https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/islington-cyclist-stabbed.175470/#post-3568488


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## vickster (3 Mar 2015)

User13710 said:


> The Guardian today quoted a description of the bikes: "A red mountain bike and a black and red pedal cycle". Oh dear.


The Standard this evening said a red Specialized Hard Rock with black tape on the frame and a Specialized Vita

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crim...-bike-with-friends-in-islington-10081479.html


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## subaqua (3 Mar 2015)

Both my kids are under instructions to give anybody who demands bikes mobiles etc , what they demanded. Really feel for the parents

I too have ridden that bit of Cally road a fair amount in last few years .


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## Beebo (3 Mar 2015)

subaqua said:


> Both my kids are under instructions to give anybody who demands bikes mobiles etc , what they demanded. Really feel for the parents
> 
> I too have ridden that bit of Cally road a fair amount in last few years .


From watching the CCTV they didnt ask for the bikes, they just stabbed thefirst guy as he rode by, then just jumped on the other two, no questions asked.
As said above it could have been any one of us on a FNRTTC ride, absolutely shocking.


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## subaqua (3 Mar 2015)

Beebo said:


> From watching the CCTV they didnt ask for the bikes, they just stabbed thefirst guy as he rode by, then just jumped on the other two, no questions asked.
> As said above it could have been any one of us on a FNRTTC ride, absolutely shocking.



kid didn't stand a chance. i watched it this morning and it is horrific.


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## glenn forger (3 Mar 2015)

Andy Roadie said:


> Why haven't the Police released a description of the suspects?



"The first suspect is described as a male youth, thought to be white, of slim build. He is believed to have been wearing grey or dark coloured hooded top, dark bottoms, which may have contained a keychain hanging from the rear pocket, and wore an item of clothing obscuring his face.

The second suspect was a black male youth, slim to medium build, wearing a sleeveless jacket with a hoodie underneath. He wore a shoulder bag across his body and similarly to the first suspect had an item of clothing across his face.

The final suspect was of medium build, wearing a three-quarter length coat with a trimmed hood, and a dark top decorated with a multi-coloured motif on the chest. He wore lighter bottoms and dark shoes."


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## glenn forger (3 Mar 2015)

The lads he was with may have been involved in a previous stabbing. It may not have been the bikes that were the primary aim.


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## Kookas (4 Mar 2015)

mustang1 said:


> Ffs
> 
> I only just read about this in the Standard. Ffs. What a bunch of sh1theads. Wtf.
> 
> Is it my imagination or there really more crime these days?



Statistically less, but more ways to find out.


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## Sara_H (4 Mar 2015)

subaqua said:


> Both my kids are under instructions to give anybody who demands bikes mobiles etc , what they demanded. Really feel for the parents
> 
> I too have ridden that bit of Cally road a fair amount in last few years .


I had that discussion with my son after watching this video yesterday. 
Awful tragedy.


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## PeteXXX (4 Mar 2015)

Two people have been arrested so far. At least they, hopefully, have found those responsible.

Edit: An 18yr old and a 17 yr old apparently.


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## SatNavSaysStraightOn (19 Mar 2015)

*Mod Edit:* A number of posts have been deleted as unsuitable for this thread. Please keep this thread as it should be.


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## Brains (22 Mar 2015)

User said:


> To be fair, a street killing is hardly suitable for the cyclist down board in the first place.


To be fair, most of the entries on this board are street killings. Just some are more slightly less pre-planned than others.


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## glasgowcyclist (17 Sep 2015)

The young cyclist's assailant has been convicted of his murder. Article suggests the motive was robbery.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-34284385

_"Joshua Williams, 18, stabbed Alan Cartwright who was "innocently" riding along Caledonian Road, in Islington, on 27 February. 
Alan was cycling with friends when he was targeted by a group of robbers."_​
GC


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## Drago (17 Sep 2015)

subaqua said:


> Both my kids are under instructions to give anybody who demands bikes mobiles etc , what they demanded. Really feel for the parents
> 
> I too have ridden that bit of Cally road a fair amount in last few years .


Anyone who demands my bike will get it alright. Some of the defensive tactics are surprising, and bone snappingly effective.


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## steveindenmark (17 Sep 2015)

Lets hope he gets life and serves it.

But I doubt that will happen.


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## Brains (18 Sep 2015)

steveindenmark said:


> Lets hope he gets life and serves it.
> 
> But I doubt that will happen.



Your wish is my command Oh master

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-34289598


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## subaqua (18 Sep 2015)

Brains said:


> Your wish is my command Oh master
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-34289598




Only 21 years , be nearly 40 when he comes out, has the chance of starting a life and living for another 50 . Alan will never have that chance 

scumbag should stay inside till he dies.


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## xxDarkRiderxx (18 Sep 2015)

Saw this on the BBC when it first happened just shocking that someone would do this. I grew up in that part of North London in the 80's , and cycled down that very street as a teenager and to think someone would stab a young person enjoying cycling with friends is appalling. Rest in peace young man.


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## mustang1 (18 Sep 2015)

Just saw the news today. He got life sentence.


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## subaqua (18 Sep 2015)

User13710 said:


> It was a minimum of 21 years. Given that he was already on bail on a charge of carrying a knife, it isn't certain that he would be released at that point.



Ok so he sits in prison for 21 years , is a good boy inside, behaves well and is eligible for release after the 21 yrs. stinks . was a deliberate act and he knew the outcome was going to be death - should have been a whole life term.


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## steveindenmark (19 Sep 2015)

subaqua said:


> Ok so he sits in prison for 21 years , is a good boy inside, behaves well and is eligible for release after the 21 yrs. stinks . was a deliberate act and he knew the outcome was going to be death - should have been a whole life term.



But whole life terms are rarely implemented.

It would be better to reinstate the death penalty for cases where guilt is not in question. I wonder how many milions of pounds the taxpayer will have to stump up to keep this young man in prison for 21 years. The money will be far better served using it elsewhere.


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## Pale Rider (19 Sep 2015)

It's gallows time.


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## steveindenmark (19 Sep 2015)

Pale Rider said:


> It's gallows time.



Gallows.... More like dirty, rusty spoon.


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## glenn forger (19 Sep 2015)

The jury noticed that the so called Christian family of the alibi declined to swear on the bible. That struck me as bizarre, like it doesn't count if your fingers are crossed or something.


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## Pale Rider (19 Sep 2015)

glenn forger said:


> The jury noticed that the so called Christian family of the alibi declined to swear on the bible. That struck me as bizarre, like it doesn't count if your fingers are crossed or something.



The witness will have been offered the choice of swearing on the bible, or making an affirmation without a bible.

The jurors will have gone through the same process when they were sworn at the start of the trial.

They may have noticed the witness choosing to make an affirmation - it was there to be seen.

But I'm curious as to how we know they noticed, unless someone asked them afterwards which is very unlikely given that any question to a juror would see the questioner in the dock.

Any irregularity would also be highlighted by the defence barrister.

We've not heard of such, and the defendant has been sentenced.

Cocking up the trial process could be grounds for an appeal, but it's more likely wires have become crossed somewhere.


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## Markymark (19 Sep 2015)

steveindenmark said:


> But whole life terms are rarely implemented.
> 
> It would be better to reinstate the death penalty for cases where guilt is not in question. I wonder how many milions of pounds the taxpayer will have to stump up to keep this young man in prison for 21 years. The money will be far better served using it elsewhere.


A lot less money than executing. Googke it. Death sentenances in the US costs massively more than imprisoning for life.


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## Pale Rider (19 Sep 2015)

Dunno about the US, but it's reckoned to cost about £40,000 a year to keep a prisoner in the UK.

Thus the bill for 21 years' board and lodgings at Her Majesty's Pleasure will be £840,000.

Execution won't be cheap, not least because we would have to re-establish the way to do it.

But it surely wouldn't cost £840,000.


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## Markymark (19 Sep 2015)

Pale Rider said:


> Dunno about the US, but it's reckoned to cost about £40,000 a year to keep a prisoner in the UK.
> 
> Thus the bill for 21 years' board and lodgings at Her Majesty's Pleasure will be £840,000.
> 
> ...


Execution doesn't but the court case and legal process costs millions.


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## Pale Rider (19 Sep 2015)

0-markymark-0 said:


> Execution doesn't but the court case and legal process costs millions.



Only if you allow a 'death row' to be established.

This defendant has been found guilty of murder.

If we had the death penalty he could be executed within days.

It would only be the sentence of a court, which in this case he received two or three days after conviction.


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## Markymark (19 Sep 2015)

Pale Rider said:


> Only if you allow a 'death row' to be established.
> 
> This defendant has been found guilty of murder.
> 
> ...


Plenty or resources online explaining the costs. Court case takes a lot longer and appeal process more detailed when death penalty is being sought.


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## marzjennings (19 Sep 2015)

Pale Rider said:


> Dunno about the US, but it's reckoned to cost about £40,000 a year to keep a prisoner in the UK.
> 
> Thus the bill for 21 years' board and lodgings at Her Majesty's Pleasure will be £840,000.
> 
> ...



I've heard it costs a lot more to put someone on death row as opposed to life in prison. A quick google of costs put it at over a $million more per case. More appeals, more lawyers and increased security all add onto the cost.

Plus, let's not forget the killing someone just 'cos you don't like 'em is about as barbaric as a civilization can get.


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## Pale Rider (19 Sep 2015)

0-markymark-0 said:


> Plenty or resources online explaining the costs. Court case takes a lot longer and appeal process more detailed when death penalty is being sought.



The American system is not relevant to the UK.

Prosecutors do not seek sentences in this country, judges decide and pass them, within the law and, these days, sentencing guidelines.

It is only as complicated as you make it.

At the end of the trial, the judge can just as easily say: "You are sentenced to death," as he can say: "You are sentenced to life in prison with a tariff of 21 years."

I'm too young to have heard a death sentence being passed, but I have spoken to people who have.

The speech from the judge wasn't very long.

Off topic slightly, but I have seen a High Court judge who used to walk onto the bench followed by his marshal (clerk) who carried a folded black hat on a cushion.

The hat was the one judges used to put on before they passed the death penalty.


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## steveindenmark (19 Sep 2015)

0-markymark-0 said:


> A lot less money than executing. Googke it. Death sentenances in the US costs massively more than imprisoning for life.



Maybe we can learn something from ISIS after all.


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## Markymark (19 Sep 2015)

steveindenmark said:


> Maybe we can learn something from ISIS after all.


Only if you think it is a society worth replicating.


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## subaqua (19 Sep 2015)

Pale Rider said:


> Only if you allow a 'death row' to be established.
> 
> This defendant has been found guilty of murder.
> 
> ...


Birmingham 6 , Guildford 4 , Derek Bentley. Nothing more needs be said really , and if you look at how many are on death row then it is obviously not a deterrent to crime is it.


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## Pale Rider (20 Sep 2015)

subaqua said:


> Birmingham 6 , Guildford 4 , Derek Bentley. Nothing more needs be said really , and if you look at how many are on death row then it is obviously not a deterrent to crime is it.



I don't see the relevance of what happens in a foreign country.

Anyway, you could say the American crime rate would be higher were it not for the death penalty - another reason not to take much account of what happens over there.

Apparent miscarriages of justice will always be an argument against the death penalty, but the Birmingham Six were convicted 40 years ago.

There is a limit to the length of time the anti-argument can hang its hat on that case.


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## Markymark (20 Sep 2015)

Pale Rider said:


> I don't see the relevance of what happens in a foreign country.
> 
> Anyway, you could say the American crime rate would be higher were it not for the death penalty - another reason not to take much account of what happens over there.
> 
> ...


States in America that have the death penalty, on the whole, have a higher murder rate than those that don't.


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## RoubaixCube (20 Sep 2015)

As a UK citizen born and raised. They need to bring back the gallows


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## Profpointy (20 Sep 2015)

0-markymark-0 said:


> States in America that have the death penalty, on the whole, have a higher murder rate than those that don't.



Cause or effect though? 

and anyway, America is a bit of a madhouse, certain states more so than others - so could be correlation rather than causation: more violent nutters = more likely to favour death penalty AND more likely to murder each other / run amok


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## Pale Rider (20 Sep 2015)

Profpointy said:


> Cause or effect though?
> 
> and anyway, America is a bit of a madhouse, certain states more so than others - so could be correlation rather than causation: more violent nutters = more likely to favour death penalty AND more likely to murder each other / run amok



I agree, America is such a large and diverse nation it is difficult to draw state to state comparisons.

Not that those against the death penalty in this country have much to worry about.

Even though I am in favour of it, I can't see it happening any time soon.


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## RoubaixCube (20 Sep 2015)

Was it David Cameron who said "eye for an eye" if a policeman was killed on duty? I cant remember. But that policy should also extend to civilians in the latter sense. though. though, hanging or giving a lethal injection to a serial mass murderer would be the 'easy' way out. That kind of person you would want to lock up so he can watch and feel his own life just waste away in prison.

the UK really needs to reform the justice system. criminals have more rights than civilians. For example - A guy breaks into your house. If you have wife and kids there in the house with you, the first thing youre going to think about is their protection. Only in this country can you beat the sh** out of a guy who breaks into your house who then can press charges against you for beating him lol. You wave a knife at him - he can call the police and have you arrested for threatening behaviour. The UK needs to adopt the Castle Doctrine and stop mollycoddling criminals. Why should criminals have rights when they break into your property and steal your belongings?


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## theclaud (20 Sep 2015)

FFS.


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## Banjo (20 Sep 2015)

I actually know a murderer.
Convicted when an 18 year old tearaway.
He served his life sentence and now is a decent man with a family .
Not quite sure what killing him would have achieved .

Far too many miscarriages of justice occur .


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## RoubaixCube (20 Sep 2015)

User said:


> You are familiar with the notion of reasonable force?



yes but even reasonable force itself is a tricky subject. Nobody on the police force can determine what _'reasonable force'_ is. Your first instinct is to protect your family - you wont care how much force you use, so long as there is still an intruder in your house. unless he's lying flat out on the floor unconscious, he's still a threat.

::EDIT::

For instance. Myleene Klass was arrested for waving a knife at potential intruders from her flat. If not arrested, she was at least handcuffed

And heres a small quote from the article...

_""She is not looking to be a vigilante, and has the utmost respect for the law, but when the police explained to her that even if you're at home alone and you have an intruder, you are not allowed to protect yourself, she was bemused.""_​


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## RoubaixCube (20 Sep 2015)

User said:


> So what? It doesn't negate the principal.



Its not a potential solution if the criminal can still sue you for damages after - you can still be prosecuted alongside the dude who broke into your house.


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## glenn forger (20 Sep 2015)

None of that Myleene Klaas story is true.


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## glenn forger (20 Sep 2015)

a police spokeswoman told the Welwyn Hatfield Times they had NOT issued any kind of warning to Myleene about using a knife during the incident.

She said: “For clarification, at no point were any official warnings or words of advice given to the home owner in relation to the use of a knife or offensive weapon in their home.”

http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/hertfordshire_police_deny_giving_myleene_klass_knife_warning_1_35428


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## Tin Pot (20 Sep 2015)

Pale Rider said:


> Dunno about the US, but it's reckoned to cost about £40,000 a year to keep a prisoner in the UK.
> 
> Thus the bill for 21 years' board and lodgings at Her Majesty's Pleasure will be £840,000.
> 
> ...



Circus cannon.

You fire the convict off the cliffs of Dover. 

Depending on the severity and nature of their crime the distance they are shot, and if they get a helmet or not.

If they can swim back to shore, we let them back in.

Murder is quite bad though, so I'd set it up for a landing in Normandy, no helmet.


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## Pale Rider (20 Sep 2015)

Tin Pot said:


> Circus cannon.
> 
> You fire the convict off the cliffs of Dover.
> 
> ...



Very witty.

I'm sure the murdered lad's family would be delighted to see the case discussed in this way.


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## RoubaixCube (20 Sep 2015)

User said:


> Does this happen in real life?



There was a big case a few years back where a farmer shot and killed a young boy and wounded another who had broke into his house with a group of youths

He was tried for murder, later reduced to manslaughter and paroled and released following an appeal. The family of the deceased then tried to sue Tony Martin. they even put a bounty on his head.

_"*Compensation claim[edit]*
During 2003, Fearon applied for, and received, an estimated £5,000 of legal aid to sue Martin for loss of earnings due to the injuries he had sustained.[22] However, the case was thrown into doubt when photographs were published in The Sun, showing him "cycling and climbing with little apparent difficulty" suggesting that Fearon's injuries were not as serious as had been claimed.[23] While the case was pending, Fearon was recalled to jail after being charged with the theft of a vehicle while on probation on a conviction for dealing heroin.[24] Fearon later dropped the case when Martin agreed to drop a counter-claim. Tens of thousands of pounds of public money had been spent on the case.[25]

*Nick Makin, Martin's solicitor, said: "It is appalling that the family of someone who has a criminal record for burglary and assault should attempt to claim any damages of criminal injury when he was shot while burgling the dwelling of an innocent person... It is also appalling that they may get legal aid while his victim is in prison and patently unable to work and equally cannot get legal aid... There is something wrong and perverse with our legal system that it permits this.*"[12]"

_​was it use of excessive force?? Sure! But someone who breaks into your property should have no rights what-so-ever.


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## Tin Pot (20 Sep 2015)

Pale Rider said:


> Very witty.
> 
> I'm sure the murdered lad's family would be delighted to see the case discussed in this way.



It's very honourable of you to discuss the case online, please continue.


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## glenn forger (20 Sep 2015)

RaveInAGrave said:


> they even put a bounty on his head.
> 
> ​




No, they did not. Do you get your facts from The Daily Mail?​


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## RoubaixCube (20 Sep 2015)

glenn forger said:


> No, they did not. Do you get your facts from The Daily Mail?​



Naw - Im better - I consulted the wiki and it says bounty


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## RoubaixCube (20 Sep 2015)

glenn forger said:


> No, they did not. Do you get your facts from The Daily Mail?​



They put a bounty on his head


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## glenn forger (20 Sep 2015)

Nope, it says a cousin of Farras's claimed there was a bounty. That doesn't mean there was one.


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## RoubaixCube (20 Sep 2015)

glenn forger said:


> Nope, it says a cousin of Farras's claimed there was a bounty. That doesn't mean there was one.



And were you at the scene at the time? you seem to know a lot for an inside man.


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## glenn forger (20 Sep 2015)

It's on the link you just posted, genius.


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## RoubaixCube (20 Sep 2015)

glenn forger said:


> It's on the link you just posted, genius.



a bounty is still a bounty unless you took the job?


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## glenn forger (20 Sep 2015)

One minute they're thieving traveler burglars, the next minute the same family are completely reliable with their not at all made-up stories about bounties with zero evidence.


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## subaqua (20 Sep 2015)

glenn forger said:


> a police spokeswoman told the Welwyn Hatfield Times they had NOT issued any kind of warning to Myleene about using a knife during the incident.
> 
> She said: “For clarification, at no point were any official warnings or words of advice given to the home owner in relation to the use of a knife or offensive weapon in their home.”
> 
> http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/hertfordshire_police_deny_giving_myleene_klass_knife_warning_1_35428


Not often I will agree with GF , but on this he is right


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## Pale Rider (20 Sep 2015)

subaqua said:


> Not often I will agree with GF , but on this he is right



There's no right or wrong, it simply depends on who you believe.

Klass claims something was said, the police claim it was not.

We have no means of deciding who is telling the truth, other than making a value judgment on each party.


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## Simpleton (20 Sep 2015)

Can this thread be locked?


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## glenn forger (20 Sep 2015)

Pale Rider said:


> Klass claims something was said, the police claim it was not.



No she does not, she didn't claim anything.


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## Brandane (20 Sep 2015)

Pale Rider said:


> There's no right or wrong, it simply depends on who you believe.
> 
> Klass claims something was said, the police claim it was not.
> 
> We have no means of deciding who is telling the truth, other than making a value judgment on each party.


Don't understand this. Why would the Police warn anyone about possessing an offensive weapon in their own home, when that is not a crime? The law is quite clear on this "Any person who without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, the proof whereof shall lie on him, has with him *in any public place* any offensive weapon shall be guilty of an offence". Prevention of Crime Act 1953.


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## Pale Rider (20 Sep 2015)

glenn forger said:


> No she does not, she didn't claim anything.



Yes she does - via her agent.

From your linked story:

Her agent Jonathan Shalit told the Sunday Telegraph police had ticked off the TV star, telling her she should not have used an “offensive weapon” to get rid off the men.

He said: “Myleene was aghast when she was told the law did not allow her to defend herself in her own home.


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## glenn forger (20 Sep 2015)

Her agent made the claim. She claimed nothing. You said she claimed something, you were wrong, deal with it.


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## subaqua (20 Sep 2015)

Pale Rider said:


> Yes she does - via her agent.
> 
> From your linked story:
> 
> ...


Ah that clears it up completely. Her agent said so , so it must be true. Silly us


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## Pale Rider (20 Sep 2015)

subaqua said:


> Ah that clears it up completely. Her agent said so , so it must be true. Silly us



As I said in an earlier post, the police say otherwise, so it's a matter of which side you choose to believe.

Got it now?


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## Moderators (20 Sep 2015)

This thread no longer appears to be cycling-related.
Locked.


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