# 10 mile TT and Heart rate



## Nosaj (14 May 2012)

I have done about three now - in all (all of which were in horrendous windy and wet conditions) my goal at the beginning of the season was to break evens and get 28's by the end. I started at 31.58 and I am now at 30.31 (last week last 5 miles into a killer head wind on the return leg) so I know I can break evens given better conditions.

I think my pacing, could be a bit better I feel I have given it my all at the end but have I ?

I have invested in a HRM and took it out out on the club run. I know as a rule of thumb that it is 220-age for your max but this may or may not be accurate.

Question 1 - If I ride this weeks ten will that give me a better indication of my max HR
Question 2 - Would my Max HR on the club run give me a better indicator of my max HR. It was quite pacy? 
Question 3 - for Future TT's is monitoring my avg. heart rate a better pacing strategy than get round the turn in a time or look at avg. speed?
Question 4 - what % of max HR would you run a 10 mile ten mile TT 85-90%?

The course has a couple of inclines but is by no means hilly

Any help would be much appreciated


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## VamP (14 May 2012)

If you pace yourself perfectly you will be riding your TT at FTP (Functional Threshold Power). That is nowhere near your HRmax, which by definition is anaerobic. To measure it somewhat accuratelly either do a ramp test, or thrown yourself as hard as you can at a big hill to the point you blow up. The highest rate you get will be reasonably close to your max. The 220-age formula is useless, and should not be relied upon.

Your FTP is somewhere between 85 and 92 percent of your max, but I wouldn't be tempted to try to work your max out that way around. Finally, in a TT, warm up well, start out a bit slow, then wind it upgradually. You want to be putting out consistent power for the whole 10 miles ideally.


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## amaferanga (14 May 2012)

VamP said:


> *If you pace yourself perfectly you will be riding your TT at FTP (Functional Threshold Power)*. That is nowhere near your HRmax, which by definition is anaerobic. To measure it somewhat accuratelly either do a ramp test, or thrown yourself as hard as you can at a big hill to the point you blow up. The highest rate you get will be reasonably close to your max. The 220-age formula is useless, and should not be relied upon.
> 
> Your FTP is somewhere between 85 and 92 percent of your max, but I wouldn't be tempted to try to work your max out that way around. Finally, in a TT, warm up well, start out a bit slow, then wind it upgradually. You want to be putting out consistent power for the whole 10 miles ideally.


 
Perhaps true for a 25mile TT, but not for a 10 mile TT. You'd expect to be riding above FTP for 20-30mins. I've only done one TT, but I rode that with a power meter and my average power was 107% FTP.

Anyway, I'd forget about HR for pacing and use RPE. HR may be useful after the event if you get the pacing wrong and maybe as a quick check if you think you might be going way too hard or way too easy, but since your HR on a given day can vary quite considerably due to things like hydration and when you last had a coffee, it's not reliable enough to use as a sole pacing aid.


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## Glover Fan (14 May 2012)

What is RPE?


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## Nosaj (14 May 2012)

Vamp many thanks your feedback but having a bit of trouble getting it. Probably due to my ignorance on this subject as opposed to your explanation though. I do not have a power meter just a Decathlon HRM. (Garmin is to come - but still no proper power meter).

I have a plan to calculate my Functional Threshhold which explained very simply is a few intervals ending with a ride as hard as I can for 20 mins. I then have to record my average HR for that final 20 minutes (for me that will be reset the HRM on the go) multiply my Average HR (for that 20 mns) x 0.95 and that is my FT.

Is that similar to Ramp test as it appears that a proper ramp test (or the monitoring of the test) can only be done on a watt bike which I do not have easy access to.

So (according to the plan I have) to ride pace a perfect TT my average heart rate should be 95-105% of my Functional Threshold Heart Rate. this would mean that I am riding near my functional threshold. To ride the perfect TT I should have a FTHR of 100%.

To interval train above FT I should be looking at 106%+ of FTHR.

Apologies but all this is quite new to me but am I on the right track?

Thanks


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## black'n'yellow (14 May 2012)

Glover Fan said:


> What is RPE?


 
Rating of Perceived Effort - usually measured on a scale of 1-10 where '1' is very easy riding, with no effort - up to '10' which would effectively be the hardest effort you could possibly make..


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## black'n'yellow (14 May 2012)

Nosaj said:


> Vamp many thanks your feedback but having a bit of trouble getting it. Probably due to my ignorance on this subject as opposed to your explanation though. I do not have a power meter just a Decathlon HRM. (Garmin is to come - but still no proper power meter).
> 
> I have a plan to calculate my Functional Threshhold which explained very simply is a few intervals ending with a ride as hard as I can for 20 mins. I then have to record my average HR for that final 20 minutes (for me that will be reset the HRM on the go) multiply my Average HR (for that 20 mns) x 0.95 and that is my FT.
> 
> ...


That sounds overly-complex to me - you might be confusing lactate threshold HR (LTHR) with max HR - the two are different. Like vamp says, you can establish a good indication of your max HR by finding a long-ish hill, riding hard up it and then sprinting the final 100m as hard as you possibly can (don't do this without first having a good level of base fitness and a good long warm-up). The highest number you record is probably close to your max - or certainly close enough for training purposes. Every other level you ride at then becomes a percentage of that number. Your threshold (also, like vamp says) would normally be around 87-92% of that number, give or take.


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## Glover Fan (14 May 2012)

Helpful stuff, got my unofficial TT route I made up coming up in an hour.

I have a HRM, but to be honest I don't rely on it, sometimes I can maintain say 175bpm for half an hour, sometimes I can't even maintain 160bpm for a reasonable amount of time.

On my Forerunner 305, I load the route with my average speed of the fastest time I have done it. In my case at the moment it is bang on 21MPH, then basically you race the computer. I find this is the best way for myself to get faster. I think the most important thing I have learned is not to go too hard at the start, if you feel you have a lot left with 3 miles to go then absolutely go for it.

Also look at conditions, tonight I am going to have a 15MPH headwind for about 5 miles of the course, so I will save a lot of energy just for that section and hopefully use a little tailwind to recover on.


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## Ian H (14 May 2012)

Tens are just flat out.


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## ColinJ (14 May 2012)

Ian H said:


> Tens are just flat out.


That can't be true - 'flat out' is a sprint and you can't sprint for 10 miles!

A few years back, I hit what was probably very close to my maximum heart rate on a 20-25% climb near here. I was tired and had to push myself to my limits to stay on the bike - 197 bpm was what I peaked at. If I'd read the HRM at the time I might just have been able to push it up to 200 bpm but that would have been me finished - _maybe permanently_!


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## Glover Fan (14 May 2012)

Yeah Max HR is very personal. I'm 24, so the 220-age would mean I could theoretically have a max HR of 196. But about an hour ago, I was on my way to the route I use a personal TT and there was an electrical storm on the way up through the Bristol channel, so promptly turned back, taking a detour to attack a shortish hill that is only 0.7 miles in length and only hits about 10%. I did it mainly to set a time on strava.

Absolutely went for it, have never attacked a hill like it and as much as I tried, I could not get my heart over 188bpm which is the highest I have ever seen in about 5 years of monitoring.

Best bit is that it put me 7th out of 83 people on this particular hill.


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## ColinJ (14 May 2012)

Glover Fan said:


> Yeah Max HR is very personal. I'm 24, so the 220-age would mean I could theoretically have a max HR of 196.


I think that I was 37 when I hit 197 bpm so it shows how far out that 220-age calculation can be! I wouldn't really like to guess what my maximum is now ...


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## black'n'yellow (14 May 2012)

my actual max HR is 15bpm higher than my theoretical 220-age calc - it's not a reliable measure...


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## endoman (14 May 2012)

I'm 44 and max out at 189 bpm. Did my first 10 TT 2 weeks ago and was at 173 plus for the whole ride, Got to 180 in the last mile. According to a test I did on the turbo my FTP is reached at a HR of 165. I was mainly riding on perceived effort, ie as much as I could give after a gentle ish start. The outward 5.5 miles being into a pretty stiff breeze. Looking forward to the next one, it was great fun, except for the minute or two after I had finished!


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## Ian H (14 May 2012)

ColinJ said:


> That can't be true - 'flat out' is a sprint and you can't sprint for 10 miles!
> 
> A few years back, I hit what was probably very close to my maximum heart rate on a 20-25% climb near here. I was tired and had to push myself to my limits to stay on the bike - 197 bpm was what I peaked at. If I'd read the HRM at the time I might just have been able to push it up to 200 bpm but that would have been me finished - _maybe permanently_!


 
...ish.


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## amaferanga (14 May 2012)

Nosaj said:


> Vamp many thanks your feedback but having a bit of trouble getting it. Probably due to my ignorance on this subject as opposed to your explanation though. I do not have a power meter just a Decathlon HRM. (Garmin is to come - but still no proper power meter).
> 
> I have a plan to calculate my Functional Threshhold which explained very simply is a few intervals ending with a ride as hard as I can for 20 mins. I then have to record my average HR for that final 20 minutes (for me that will be reset the HRM on the go) multiply my Average HR (for that 20 mns) x 0.95 and that is my FT.
> 
> ...


 
Vamp shouldn't really have mentioned FTP as it only relates to power, not HR. 

If you are determined to know your threshold HR (often known as Lactate Threshold HR) then you should get that from riding a 10. HR can and does behave very differently in training compared to racing, which is one of the reasons you have to take care and not try to stick too closely to a number. So if you want to use HR to pace a 10 then use the average HR from a few 10's in preference to testing without a number on your back.


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## Garz (14 May 2012)

Nosaj said:


> Question 1 - If I ride this weeks ten will that give me a better indication of my max HR
> Question 2 - Would my Max HR on the club run give me a better indicator of my max HR. It was quite pacy?
> Question 3 - for Future TT's is monitoring my avg. heart rate a better pacing strategy than get round the turn in a time or look at avg. speed?
> Question 4 - what % of max HR would you run a 10 mile ten mile TT 85-90%?
> ...


 
I will try to be direct:

1) Yes
2) See above (same question really just rhetorical)
3) No
4) A good effort will be nearer to 100%, however that wont necessarily translate to achieving the better time.


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## black'n'yellow (14 May 2012)

Garz said:


> 4) A good effort will be nearer to 100%, however that wont necessarily translate to achieving the better time.


 
Are you suggesting it is feasible to sustain near 100% of max HR for the duration of a 10m TT..??


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## Garz (15 May 2012)

No, instead of stating an out of the air number I think 'nearer' would capture the top end of the % better. Of course at them moment for the OP, the current 100% is only his theoretical so far and probably has never pushed near that mark.


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## Nosaj (15 May 2012)

Thanks for all the advice.

It is still very early days for me on the TT's and I want to get the pacing dialled in as much as I can along with get to the turn by x and look at average speed. I also want a decent yardstick with which to measure my training so I know that an interval is actually an interval as opposed to me thinking it is .....if you get my drift.


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## VamP (15 May 2012)

amaferanga said:


> Vamp shouldn't really have mentioned FTP as it only relates to power, not HR.
> 
> If you are determined to know your threshold HR (often known as Lactate Threshold HR) then you should get that from riding a 10. HR can and does behave very differently in training compared to racing, which is one of the reasons you have to take care and not try to stick too closely to a number. So if you want to use HR to pace a 10 then use the average HR from a few 10's in preference to testing without a number on your back.


 
Yes sorry for confusion, meant to say lactate threshold but was writing in a hurry and put FTP. Sorry Nosaj, it's not as complicated as I made it sound honestly.


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## endoman (15 May 2012)

Did my second 10 tonight, avge HR was 176 with a peak at 184, my max being 189. Chuffed to do 24.55 on a road bike with aero bars as I've only been riding a year. Getting to know the course a bit which helps, tried to really push up the little ramps, looking forward to the next one in a couple of weeks.


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## Nosaj (17 May 2012)

Well done Endoman that would have you put you in the top 5 at our club's TT and there are some decent Cat 4 racers that fill out those spaces. Winner came in at low 22 minutes

Goal one for me completed, break evens put in a 29.49 avg HR 164 Max 174 so I think that is a good indicator as to how hard I pushed for it I am 40. Monitoring my heart rate just went out of the window, I think I looked once. Concentrated on avg speed and time at the turn and that seemed to work.

Next goal is 28's now and improving aero position. my First TT was non aero I had a flipped stem (up) to start no aero's that got me a 31.58 flipped back stem for TT no. 3 and added Aero's that got me a 30.30. Will drop a spacer for next week as positioning was very comfortable and not at all restrictive.

Not bad considering no miles over winter due to injury and only getting back out on the bike at Easter!


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## Blue (18 May 2012)

Nosaj said:


> Thanks for all the advice.
> 
> It is still very early days for me on the TT's and I want to get the pacing dialled in as much as I can along with get to the turn by x and look at average speed. *I also want a decent yardstick with which to measure my training so I know that an interval is* actually an interval as opposed to me thinking it is .....if you get my drift.


 
Buy or borrow a copy of 'The Cyclist's Training Bible' by Joe Friel - lots of detail therein.


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## Enigma2008 (18 May 2012)

Question 1 - If I ride this weeks ten will that give me a better indication of my max HR
Question 2 - Would my Max HR on the club run give me a better indicator of my max HR. It was quite pacy? 
Question 3 - for Future TT's is monitoring my avg. heart rate a better pacing strategy than get round the turn in a time or look at avg. speed?
Question 4 - what % of max HR would you run a 10 mile ten mile TT 85-90%?


Q1 No! Max HR is reached at a point where you would not be able to continue racing at any significant race pace (you can ride but only to recover to a lower HR). Riding a ten at TT pace is (as already mentioned) just above your functional threshold, you will see a higher than average HR on difficult parts of the course but not your max HR.
Q2 No! See above but... there is a chance of reaching max hr on a club run if the group choose to sprint for signs etc. As I said above, once you hit max HR you can hold it for a very few seconds and will need serious time to recover.
Q3 Yeah but no but yeah but no! Your HR (the average and max you can attain) can vary considerably depending on your physiological state, (rested and recovered v tired and fatigued), air temperature (lower average HR in cold weather). The value of monitoring average HR is in the subsequent ride analysis where you can determine where thing went well.not so well and then look for the reasons why.
Q4 There isn't a specific percentage to aim for. As your fitness increases then, generally speaking, so will your ability to ride at a higher percentage of your max HR. This raises two questions: 1) What is your max HR? and 2) What is your average HR in a ten as a % of max. 
Finally, once you're able to race at a high percentage of your max HR you will find that your average HR (+/- a few beats) is around the same each time. To improve your times you will need to improve your power to weight ratio, aerodynamics etc. A whole new ball game. 
Enjoy, there's years of fun to be had!!


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