# Critérium du Dauphiné 2-9 June [spoilers]



## smutchin (28 May 2013)

Incomplete list of starters here:
http://www.cyclingfever.com/editie.html?_ap=startlijst&editie_idd=MjM2Nzk=

Looks like all the main Tour contenders will be there.


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## VamP (28 May 2013)

I was really hoping Styby might make cut, but I guess having the knee op has dented his season plans.


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## smutchin (28 May 2013)

VamP said:


> I was really hoping Styby might make cut, but I guess having the knee op has dented his season plans.


 
He should have been at the Giro - the weather would have been right up his street.


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## VamP (28 May 2013)

I am not sure crossers enjoy being frozen anymore than the rest of them 

After the San Remo he said it was the hardest thing he's ever had to do.


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## VamP (29 May 2013)

Just saw an interview with Stybar. He is definitely not riding the Tour. He 'may' be back to fitness for the Vuelta, and even that is in doubt. Real shame, he was getting into a really good form .


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## raindog (31 May 2013)

at last, the full start list
http://www.letour.fr/2013/CDD/RIDERS/fr/engages.html


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## smutchin (31 May 2013)

No Wiggins then. In fact, I read this morning that he may not do the Suisse or the Tour either because he's still ill got a knee injury.

And no Quintana because he's training at altitude in Colombia and saving himself for the Tour.

Hopefully, we'll see some good form from JVDB. It's about time he came up with the goods.


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## Flying_Monkey (1 Jun 2013)

For those of us following the rise of African cycling, it's great to see the very talented Eritrean, Daniel Teklehaimanot, will be riding this one (for Orica GreenEdge) - it's his first race of the season because apparently he has been unable to race in Europe due to visa issues - another indication of the extra difficulties facing African riders.


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## Buddfox (1 Jun 2013)

Flying_Monkey said:


> For those of us following the rise of African cycling, it's great to see the very talented Eritrean, Daniel Teklehaimanot, will be riding this one (for Orica GreenEdge) - it's his first race of the season because apparently he has been unable to race in Europe due to visa issues - another indication of the extra difficulties facing African riders.


 
Is that right? How irritating... saw him for the first time at the Olympic road race, was basically what first made me realise there was professional cycling coming out of Africa at all!


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## kedab (1 Jun 2013)

i'm going with Hooooooogerland from vacansoleililil - no reason, he's just got a cool name


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## smutchin (2 Jun 2013)

Inrng stage 1 preview - looks like a doozy:
http://inrng.com/2013/06/dauphine-stage-1-preview/


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## rich p (2 Jun 2013)

I wonder if Meersman can stay with it. I can't imagine the GCers will be too proactive today and he can climb a bit as he showed in the Pais Vasco(?) earlier this year.


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## Herzog (2 Jun 2013)

Nice to see Martin active so early...not entirely sure why...


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## Pedrosanchezo (2 Jun 2013)

When does this start and is there coverage? Sky has it on from 10:30pm tonight which is most certainly not live.


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## Herzog (2 Jun 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> When does this start and is there coverage? Sky has it on from 10:30pm tonight which is most certainly not live.


 
http://88.80.5.80/w00t/20130601/vv51a9d2a09af6b727479072-589340.html


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## Crackle (2 Jun 2013)

That cowbell is gonna slow him down a bit tomorrow.


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## rich p (2 Jun 2013)

I don't suppose many had Veilleux down as the stage winner!


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## Flying_Monkey (2 Jun 2013)

rich p said:


> I don't suppose many had Veilleux down as the stage winner!


 
Well........... no. Very pleased to see a Canadian win, though.


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## PpPete (3 Jun 2013)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Well........... no. Very pleased to see a Canadian *Quebecois* win, though.


 
FTFY


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## rich p (3 Jun 2013)

Looks like another lumpy but not killer-hills day. Meersman for the win again, after his 2nd place yesterday.


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## smutchin (3 Jun 2013)

Great finish by Viviani. No one else even close! (Just goes to show how great Cav's form was at the Giro.)

Impressive enough that he was even still there at the finish, tbh - that wasn't an easy stage for the sprinters by any stretch of the imagination.


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## Crackle (3 Jun 2013)

rich p said:


> Looks like another lumpy but not killer-hills day. Meersman for the win again, after his 2nd place yesterday.


Nearly.

I keep missing this as it starts so early.

Who was Thomas leading out?


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## Strathlubnaig (3 Jun 2013)

rich p said:


> I don't suppose many had Veilleux down as the stage winner!


had the Canadien on my fantasy team !!


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## Strathlubnaig (3 Jun 2013)

PpPete said:


> FTFY


lets not get political now....


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## jifdave (4 Jun 2013)

Not on telly again.... how crap


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## Herzog (4 Jun 2013)

jifdave said:


> Not on telly again.... how crap


 
http://www.hahabar.com/20130602/v-cycling-590164-51ab222706d806.46682526.html
http://www.procyclinglive.com/livestream/#

Some streams don't work...bit hit and miss!


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## Crackle (4 Jun 2013)

http://www.sportcategory.com/c-9.html is working


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## PpPete (4 Jun 2013)

EBH !
what a lead out from G though ....


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## Crackle (4 Jun 2013)

You've jinxed Meersman Rich. Lift the curse, tip someone else!


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## Noodley (4 Jun 2013)

Crackle said:


> I keep missing this as it starts so early.


 
Do they deliver the milk and 'papers for the locals as they ride past?


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## Pedrosanchezo (4 Jun 2013)

Highlights on at 6:30pm on Eurosport2.


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## Crackle (4 Jun 2013)

Noodley said:


> Do they deliver the milk and 'papers for the locals as they ride past?


You're thinking of the Milk Race.


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## deptfordmarmoset (4 Jun 2013)

Crackle said:


> You're thinking of the Milk Race.


Talking of the Milk Race, it seems a little late but Eurosport 2 appear to be showing the 1993 Milk Race after the CdD highlights tonight.


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## oldroadman (4 Jun 2013)

2030 tonigt highlights of the "Nottingham Milk Race", a crit held last week in the city. Run by one Anthony Doyle, who some will remember for his exploits on the track a while ago.


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## rich p (4 Jun 2013)

PpPete said:


> EBH !
> what a lead out from G though ....


GT looks fit and strong as the lead-out, but it would be nice to see him be in a position to do something for himself soon.


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## Herzog (4 Jun 2013)

rich p said:


> GT looks fit and strong as the lead-out, but it would be nice to see him be in a position to do something for himself soon.


 

Indeed, I believe he'll be concentrating on the road in the future and drastically scaling back/stopping track activities.


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## deptfordmarmoset (4 Jun 2013)

oldroadman said:


> 2030 tonigt highlights of the "Nottingham Milk Race", a crit held last week in the city. Run by one Anthony Doyle, who some will remember for his exploits on the track a while ago.


Ah, thanks for that. Athleticsliveontv are listing it as the1993 Milk Race and I wasn't sure if they were rerunning it as a taster for the relaunch.


> 2030-2130 British Eurosport 2 *Cycling*
> 1993 Milk Race, Nottingham


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## Speicher (4 Jun 2013)

This evening, Brian Smith kept referring to Queertofski.  I can usually work out who he means, but not this time.


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## Crackle (4 Jun 2013)

I missed the Milk Race in the end but it got me thinking about when I saw it come through Liverpool a couple of times and I saw another famous Manxman win the stage there. Steve Joughin, nicknamed The Pocket Rocket.

Got me wondering what had happened to him and I found this.

http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/road/article/roa20101125-Interview--Pocket-Rocket-Steve-Joughin-0


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## oldroadman (4 Jun 2013)

Runs a clothing company in Stoke, makers of Vitesse brand stuff. Provides all the ToB and Tour Series kit, the logo is onit anyway. And an all round good bloke.


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## montage (5 Jun 2013)

Crackle said:


> I missed the Milk Race in the end but it got me thinking about when I saw it come through Liverpool a couple of times and I saw another famous Manxman win the stage there. Steve Joughin, nicknamed The Pocket Rocket.
> 
> Got me wondering what had happened to him and I found this.
> 
> http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/road/article/roa20101125-Interview--Pocket-Rocket-Steve-Joughin-0


 

He 's dwarfed by Cav!


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## Crackle (5 Jun 2013)

montage said:


> He 's dwarfed by Cav!


 
Literally 

Funny though. He was one of a number of riders that emerged in the 80's. If they'd emerged into the same structure as exists today, some of them would be household names.


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## Herzog (5 Jun 2013)

I forgot how much I hate ITTs, especially pan flat ons!


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## jifdave (5 Jun 2013)

contador on a shocker... as porte passed him the difference in styles/position was huge.

contador looked arched porte nice and flat


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## Strathlubnaig (5 Jun 2013)

Veilleux putting in a good effort tough, still 'virtual leader'


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## VamP (5 Jun 2013)

I don't think Froome could have hoped for a better outcome than this.


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## Strathlubnaig (5 Jun 2013)

Too bad for the Canadien to lose the maillot jaune, but an unexpected new leader in Dennis from Garmin-Sharp. Everything I read elsewhere had Froome as comfortable leader after today, so not quite the outcome expected. It'll only be for a day though I think.


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## Crackle (5 Jun 2013)

It's a shocker from Beefy Bert. 3 weeks to get his act together.


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## smutchin (5 Jun 2013)

Speicher said:


> This evening, Brian Smith kept referring to Queertofski.  I can usually work out who he means, but not this time.


 
In case you're not joking, he means Michal Kwiatowski of OPQS, one of the up and coming Polish stars. Get used to hearing his name, mispronounced or otherwise.


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## PpPete (5 Jun 2013)

Strathlubnaig said:


> Too bad for the Canadien to lose the maillot jaune, but an unexpected new leader in Dennis from Garmin-Sharp. Everything I read elsewhere had Froome as comfortable leader after today, so not quite the outcome expected. It'll only be for a day though I think.


 
I'm sure Sky won't mind one little bit. If anything it's a positive for them? One day less having to control things?


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## VamP (5 Jun 2013)

Exactly.


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## Rob3rt (5 Jun 2013)

jifdave said:


> contador on a shocker... *as porte passed him the difference in styles/position was huge.*
> 
> *contador looked arched porte nice and flat*


 
Flat does not always equal being more aero though (same as getting lower doesn't equal being more aero) and it certainly doesn't mean faster! It's a poor assumption to make and one that many amateur riders probably make, leading to positions which are holding them back. Just have a look at the positions many of the top domestic testers are coming out of the wind tunnel with!


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## Dave Davenport (5 Jun 2013)

Maybe Bertie will get his brother to throw a BBQ before July.


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## jifdave (5 Jun 2013)

Rob3rt said:


> Flat does not always equal being more aero though (same as getting lower doesn't equal being more aero) and it certainly doesn't mean faster! It's a poor assumption to make and one that many amateur riders probably make, leading to positions which are holding them back. Just have a look at the positions many of the top domestic testers are coming out of the wind tunnel with!


 
My opinion was based on the info id heard about nibali improving his position and now clearly improving his tting....

Also people always talk about wiggins perfect position being flat


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## The Couch (5 Jun 2013)

Speicher said:


> This evening, Brian Smith kept referring to Queertofski.  I can usually work out who he means, but not this time.


Michal "Kwiatek" Kwiatkowski almost (with some exaggeration ) won the Tirreno and had (in my opinion) a brilliant and unexpected continuation of his form in the Classis. After almost winning the Tour of Poland, I had expected him to be good in 1 week races (being good at TT and quite decent in climbing), but he slightly surprised me in the Classics.
I believe he actually will need to decide, whether he will focus on becoming more of a Cancellara type or an Indurain type, since currently he has shown potential for both.

I would guess that for this Dauphine, he should be among the biggest challengers for Froome. (Being that most of the Spanish challengers can't quite TT good enough for 1-week races)


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## rich p (5 Jun 2013)

If Dirty Bertie matches Frome in the ITTs in the Tour will you assume he was sandbagging and training here or something more sinister?
Is this likely to be Sky's TdF team with a couple of changes? Eisel, Knees, Lopez in the frame?


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## The Couch (5 Jun 2013)

PpPete said:


> I'm sure Sky won't mind one little bit. If anything it's a positive for them? One day less having to control things?


I am not quite sure they won't (need to) take control anyway tomorrow. It looks to be way too hard for Dennis to really believe he will be able to hang on... Sky will have to take control of things, since only tomorrow and the last stage will be the best chances for the climbers to give it a try... And normally you can assume that Bertie will have some (most likely, unfruitful) whacks at it.


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## The Couch (5 Jun 2013)

rich p said:


> If Dirty Bertie matches Frome in the ITTs in the Tour will you assume he was sandbagging and training here or something more sinister?
> Is this likely to be Sky's TdF team with a couple of changes? Eisel, Knees, Lopez in the frame?


 
Don't know how their legs are feeling currently... but I would defintely ask Sivtsov and Cataldo if they feel recovered to be in the Froome express .


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## Rob3rt (5 Jun 2013)

jifdave said:


> My opinion was based on the info id heard about nibali improving his position and now clearly improving his tting....
> 
> Also people always talk about wiggins perfect position being flat


 

Nibali may well have improved his position that does not necessarily mean getting lower and flatter though, there are many variables to a riders position, and even more variables governing how fast a rider will go.

Wiggins position is always talked up as the perfect position by commentators, it way well be a great position, but it is a position that is great for him (Matt Bottrill has a similar position).

As I said, if interested, look up some of the top UK testers (many of which seem to use the same wind tunnel service, drag2zero) and you will realise that they all come out with different positions that are optimum for them, on the bike they ride. Some will be low, long and flat, others like an aero cannonball!

The reason I recommend looking at the top UK testers is that they are not governed by the UCI in most competition, so many will not remain UCI legal throughout the season, they will take the most aero and powerful position they can, within the much more relaxed regulations of the CTT, so you get to see what variance of optimal positions there really is without having things limited by lots of regulations. To add to this, many of the top guys would be competitive in a pro time trial.


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## thom (5 Jun 2013)

rich p said:


> Is this likely to be Sky's TdF team with a couple of changes? Eisel, Knees, Lopez in the frame?


My guess for the tour:
Froome, Porte, Boassen Hagen,Thomas, Siuotsou, Kiriyenka, Knees, Eisel & Lopez (who is in this one now i think)


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## oldroadman (5 Jun 2013)

Rob3rt said:


> Nibali may well have improved his position that does not necessarily mean getting lower and flatter though, there are many variables to a riders position, and even more variables governing how fast a rider will go.
> 
> Wiggins position is always talked up as the perfect position by commentators, it way well be a great position, but it is a position that is great for him (Matt Bottrill has a similar position).
> 
> ...




Going on past experience and results from World Championships and other major TT races of the past, that is not the case. With the odd honourable exception the "top British TTers" finish way off the pace of competent pro road riders who can turn in a decent TT when required.


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## jdtate101 (5 Jun 2013)

thom said:


> My guess for the tour:
> Froome, Porte, Boassen Hagen,Thomas, Siuotsou, Kiriyenka, Knees, Eisel & Lopez (who is in this one now i think)


 

Neither of the Columbians???


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## rich p (5 Jun 2013)

jdtate101 said:


> Neither of the Columbians???


I'm pretty sure Uran won't do it. Henao is a possible I suppose instead of Siutsou in Thom's team. I'm not convinced that anyone from the Giro will be in it and Stannard may be there as a workhorse.
So,
Froome, EBH, Porte, Kiryenka, Lopez, Eisel, Knees, Stannard, Thomas - maybe!


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## Noodley (5 Jun 2013)

Breaking News on cyclingnews website is that Team Trumpton have been given a wildcard entry, confirmed riders so far are:
Pugh, Pugh, Barney McGrew, Cuthbert, Dribble, Grub with Chippy MInton almost guaranteed a place if he wins his national champs the week before.


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## jdtate101 (5 Jun 2013)

Just watched the ITT and to me it looked like Contador was slipping off the front of his saddle, he seemed to be re-positioning every couple of seconds. Compare that to Froome and Porte who looked really planted on the seat.


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## 400bhp (5 Jun 2013)

My guess - sandbagging


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## beastie (5 Jun 2013)

Noodley said:


> Breaking News on cyclingnews website is that Team Trumpton have been given a wildcard entry, confirmed riders so far are:
> Pugh, Pugh, Barney McGrew, Cuthbert, Dribble, Grub with Chippy MInton almost guaranteed a place if he wins his national champs the week before.


Pretty sure it was DIBBLE. Dribble was his incontinent cousin on his mother's side.


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## beastie (5 Jun 2013)

jdtate101 said:


> Just watched the ITT and to me it looked like Contador was slipping off the front of his saddle, he seemed to be re-positioning every couple of seconds. Compare that to Froome and Porte who looked really planted on the seat.


Have seen Contador riding like that even when he is going well, the tour TT when he beat Cancellara he was the same.


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## Chris Norton (5 Jun 2013)

Froome, Porte (hell of a TT today) and Uran would be Plan a,b and c for the tour. Boasson, Thomas who looks better every race he runs. Bernie Eisel stannard and Heneo last man in? For simple experience time how about taking Jonathon Locke as a complete wildcard if only to get him to get the feel of a GT. Probably much better choices really depending on the plan.

Looking forward to tomorrow's stage as I have thursday pm off and it's a nice ride up to Valmoral.


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## Strathlubnaig (5 Jun 2013)

I read elsewhere that Contador had allergy issues today (Juste un problème d'allergie) which I found interesting beause Brian Smith & Co had discussed pollen and allergies the previous day.


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## Noodley (6 Jun 2013)

Strathlubnaig said:


> I read elsewhere that Contador had allergy issues today (Juste un problème d'allergie) which I found interesting beause Brian Smith & Co had discussed pollen and allergies the previous day.


 
An allergy to meat not contaminated with Clenbuterol perhaps?


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## Pedrosanchezo (6 Jun 2013)

Noodley said:


> An allergy to meat not contaminated with Clenbuterol perhaps?


Haha, good one. Though, assuming that is all he ingested, Clenbuterol has no performance benefits whatsoever. At it's very best it might shed a few pounds over a period of time. The side effects would be far less desirable. 

Of course that might just be what he got caught with at the time. 

I too heard the allergy thing but hasn't Contador performed well at the Giro and Dauphine before?


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## Noodley (6 Jun 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> Haha, good one. Though, assuming that is all he ingested, Clenbuterol has no performance benefits whatsoever. At it's very best it might shed a few pounds over a period of time. The side effects would be far less desirable.


 
You do know what Clenbuterol is used for tho don't you? And that it is a banned substance. And you are not being an apologist for Dirty Bertie? He is an unrepentant drug cheat - end of. Anything he does or did is of no value.


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## Crackle (6 Jun 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> Haha, good one. Though, assuming that is all he ingested, Clenbuterol has no performance benefits whatsoever. At it's very best it might shed a few pounds over a period of time. The side effects would be far less desirable.


 
It's not just the Clenbuterol, it's the speculation of how it got there, the plasticizer that was reported with it, leading most to surmise that it was a re-infused blood bag he took during the race, taken out from an earlier period in his training calendar. Speculation but far more plausible than Spanish steak which no one ever produced a chain of contamination for. No, Beefy Bert was deffo cheating, who knows if he still is.


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## Dave Davenport (6 Jun 2013)

Crackle said:


> who knows if he still is.


Not, going on his performances.


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## VamP (6 Jun 2013)

Dave Davenport said:


> Not, going on his performances.


 
As if cheating by itself was a guarantee of success.


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## Dave Davenport (6 Jun 2013)

VamP said:


> As if cheating by itself was a guarantee of success.


 If he suddenly gets loads better come the tour it's going to look as fishy as a barrel of cod.


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## smutchin (6 Jun 2013)

Noodley said:


> You do know what Clenbuterol is used for tho don't you? And that it is a banned substance. And you are not being an apologist for Dirty Bertie? He is an unrepentant drug cheat - end of. Anything he does or did is of no value.


 
I feel about Contador much the same as I felt about Vinokourov. They may be unrepentant cheats, and I'll never be able to wholeheartedly root for them because of that, but I love the way they race. I never felt the same way about Lance.


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## Noodley (6 Jun 2013)

smutchin said:


> I feel about Contador much the same as I felt about Vinokourov. They may be unrepentant cheats, and I'll never be able to wholeheartedly root for them because of that, but I love the way they race. I never felt the same way about Lance.


Every time I see them I just think "cheating bast**ds" and lose interest in the racing - they are cheats, end of.


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## smutchin (6 Jun 2013)

Fair enough. Can't argue with that!

Just looking at the results... with four in the top ten yesterday and four in the top six overall, I have to wonder... are Sky the only team taking this race seriously?


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## Andrew Br (6 Jun 2013)

Chris Norton said:


> Thomas who looks better every race he runs.


 

They've got him running now ?
Is that so he doesn't fall off his bike ? 

.


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## Zofo (6 Jun 2013)

smutchin said:


> I feel about Contador much the same as I felt about Vinokourov. They may be unrepentant cheats, and I'll never be able to wholeheartedly root for them because of that, but I love the way they race. I never felt the same way about Lance.


 
Yes I know what you mean, there's something about LA that just makes me want to puke these days


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## Zofo (6 Jun 2013)

Wow --they're sprinting at the back of the peloton just to keep up with 20k to go!


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## jifdave (6 Jun 2013)

Dennis just getting dropped :-( shame


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## Crackle (6 Jun 2013)

Dennis has cracked, been looking heavy for a bit, cracking ride by him though.


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## jifdave (6 Jun 2013)

Bertie attacks


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## jifdave (6 Jun 2013)

Froome counter


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## thom (6 Jun 2013)

Chapeau Froome - superbe !


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## Radchenister (6 Jun 2013)

K.O. !!!


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## RecordAceFromNew (6 Jun 2013)

Nice to see Porte moving into 2nd too.


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## The Couch (6 Jun 2013)

Still... you gotta give it to Bertie, even as a vegetarian he does not give up easily 
Surprisingly (to me) actually Valverde went for it as well... so far I was always assuming that he would save his powers for the Vuelta (while Quintana was "preparing?"  himself in Colombia for the Tour)... don't know what to think of it now

But what happened today to the likes of VdB, Purito, Nieve (who I am assuming will be the spearpoint of Euskaltel in the Tour), Cunego and De Gendt. OK, none of them have lately been really looking strong, so - with the exception of Purito - I didn't have real high expectations for them, but these time gaps are a bit ridiculous.

The performance of Rolland I guess is no surprise, he doesn't seem to be interested in showing much form throughout the year (maybe he prefers keeping his cost low to be able to pick him in TdF Fantasy games)


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## smutchin (6 Jun 2013)

The Couch said:


> The performance of Rolland I guess is no surprise, he doesn't seem to be interested in showing much form throughout the year (maybe he prefers keeping his cost low to be able to pick him in TdF Fantasy games)


 
Probably that he doesn't see himself as an overall contender, so he'd rather save his energy for when he's on a good day, then he can launch an attack and get a stage win without the risk of the big guns chasing him down because he's no threat in GC.

If he's thinking like this, it's a sure sign he's been hanging round Tommy Voeckler too long. You won't see such fecklessness from Thibaut Pinot.


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## smutchin (6 Jun 2013)

The Couch said:


> But what happened today to the likes of VdB, Purito, Nieve (who I am assuming will be the spearpoint of Euskaltel in the Tour), Cunego and De Gendt. OK, none of them have lately been really looking strong, so - with the exception of Purito - I didn't have real high expectations for them, but these time gaps are a bit ridiculous.


 
I don't know if it's a case of form or just not being good enough to compete with the likes of Froome and Contador. Purito will never win a GT, and it's looking increasingly unlikely for VDB. Very pleased to see Taaramae showing some good form though - seems to be properly over his problems of last year, at last. He's shown such promise in the past and it would be great if he could become a serious contender in the long term.

(Cue RichP telling me he's under investigation for hanging round with dodgy doctors...)


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## Pedrosanchezo (6 Jun 2013)

Noodley said:


> You do know what Clenbuterol is used for tho don't you? And that it is a banned substance. And you are not being an apologist for Dirty Bertie? He is an unrepentant drug cheat - end of. Anything he does or did is of no value.





Crackle said:


> It's not just the Clenbuterol, it's the speculation of how it got there, the plasticizer that was reported with it, leading most to surmise that it was a re-infused blood bag he took during the race, taken out from an earlier period in his training calendar. Speculation but far more plausible than Spanish steak which no one ever produced a chain of contamination for. No, Beefy Bert was deffo cheating, who knows if he still is.


Just going on the facts gents. We can of course speculate (and i do plenty of that myself) that he has used other substances but what he was banned for was Clenbuterol. It is a banned substance and he got punished. This makes him a drug cheat indeed. 

I do like Berti as a cyclist but not as a person or from a moral standpoint. I don't invest any thought in him that way. I like the way he can light up a race that appears dead or the way he climbs almost always out of the saddle. I find it entertaining to watch. I am not going to look away from the tv every time the camera shows his chops. 

We would be as well assuming most have cheated anyway. Lance Armstrong never got caught by testing, he got caught by eye witness testimony. He also, as we all know, eventually confessed. How many other cyclists post millenium have doped but not been caught? How many are still doping?


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## Herzog (6 Jun 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> ...I am not going to look away from the tv every time the camera shows his chops.


 

It was in the pork as well...?


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## Monsieur Remings (6 Jun 2013)

Great stage today, you have to admire the dominance of Sky on the front and how much it seemed touch and go as to whether the breakaway would be caught, until Sky took the reins. As for Bertie vs Froome, what a spectacle to watch and the yellow is a bonus with Sky placed 1 and 2. Porte is looking seriously good.


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## jdtate101 (6 Jun 2013)

Froome didn't need to go for the win, but what a great way to play mind games with Bertie...

"I can beat you in time trials AND I've got you in the mountains too...."

That's got to be seriously crushing for Contador (not to mention all the other contenders who were.......nowhere to be seen today!!!).


----------



## jifdave (6 Jun 2013)

Purito lost over 5 mins today.....


----------



## rich p (6 Jun 2013)

I find it all rather perplexing.
A cynic might think that these large time gaps and relatively poor performances by certain riders might indicate that they are waiting for their final preparation or are once dirty/now clean. It will be interesting to see how fit some of them are in a couple of weeks in la Tour.
Other explanations are possible

On another note I was pleasantly surprised to see Kennaugh doing the last climbing pace before Porte. Maybe he will go to the TdF. Lopez was noticeably absent from the Valmorel effort but maybe there's a reason.


----------



## jdtate101 (6 Jun 2013)

rich p said:


> I find it all rather perplexing.
> A cynic might think that these large time gaps and relatively poor performances by certain riders might indicate that they are waiting for their final preparation or are once dirty/now clean. It will be interesting to see how fit some of them are in a couple of weeks in la Tour.
> Other explanations are possible
> 
> On another note I was pleasantly surprised to see Kennaugh doing the last climbing pace before Porte. Maybe he will go to the TdF. Lopez was noticeably absent from the Valmorel effort but maybe there's a reason.


 

Maybe they are saving Lopez and resting him up to do tempo duty on a later stage.


----------



## Strathlubnaig (6 Jun 2013)

What seems strange to me is that many pundits on here take the view that (i) Sky are superior in all aspects and very impressive with half the squad in the top 10, but are of course clean as a whistle, and(ii) all other riders are either on the juice or if they did well at some point in the past but are not so good today then they were doped up then. Sounds awfy double standards to me sorry.


----------



## 400bhp (6 Jun 2013)

Froome - "I'm not in 100% shape yet and still have work to do"


----------



## 400bhp (6 Jun 2013)

Strathlubnaig said:


> What seems strange to me is that many pundits on here take the view that (i) Sky are superior in all aspects and very impressive with half the squad in the top 10, but are of course clean as a whistle, and(ii) all other riders are either on the juice or if they did well at some point in the past but are not so good today then they were doped up then. Sounds awfy double standards to me sorry.


 

Sky have the money to buy the best.

Not dissimilar to a top football team.

Perhaps certain ex dopers are doing crao because they aren't doping.


----------



## smutchin (6 Jun 2013)

Strathlubnaig said:


> What seems strange to me is that many pundits on here take the view that (i) Sky are superior in all aspects and very impressive with half the squad in the top 10, but are of course clean as a whistle, and(ii) all other riders are either on the juice or if they did well at some point in the past but are not so good today then they were doped up then. Sounds awfy double standards to me sorry.


 
It's interesting to see Mick Rogers up near the top of GC. No longer with Sky but maybe he learnt something while he was there (like the names and numbers of the best doctors  ).


----------



## rich p (6 Jun 2013)

Strathlubnaig said:


> What seems strange to me is that many pundits on here take the view that (i) Sky are superior in all aspects and very impressive with half the squad in the top 10, but are of course clean as a whistle, and(ii) all other riders are either on the juice or if they did well at some point in the past but are not so good today then they were doped up then. Sounds awfy double standards to me sorry.


If you don't find it surprising that Rodriguez finished 5 minutes down on a lot of journeymen then you may not have been following pro-cycling very closely of late!


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## Slaav (6 Jun 2013)

smutchin said:


> It's interesting to see Mick Rogers up near the top of GC. No longer with Sky but maybe he learnt something while he was there (like the names and numbers of the best doctors  ).


I seem to remember Rogers doing quite well when at Sky? Maybe he is just a bl00dy good rider who has a slightly moody past? As opposed to a BBQ fiend/LA altar boy?


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## Strathlubnaig (6 Jun 2013)

rich p said:


> If you don't find it surprising that Rodriguez finished 5 minutes down on a lot of journeymen then you may not have been following pro-cycling very closely of late!


I think you missed my point.


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## 400bhp (6 Jun 2013)

Is it really that difficult to understand?

Climbs aren't that steep so just ride at LT. If on average, each rider can do 5.5w/kg say (clearly a very talented team as shown in the TT), then the team can probably do 6w/kg. Try riding away from a team that can do 6w/kg. Aint gonna happen.

I made the numbers up by the way, but I am just illustrating a point.


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## smutchin (6 Jun 2013)

Slaav said:


> I seem to remember Rogers doing quite well when at Sky? Maybe he is just a bl00dy good rider who has a slightly moody past? As opposed to a BBQ fiend/LA altar boy?


 
He was always a good rider, but he noticeably improved when he joined Sky. I was hinting that the fact he's still a good rider now he's no longer with Sky suggests he is still benefitting from the training techniques he learnt while he was at Sky. Or, if you don't believe Sky are clean, he's still using the same doping techniques that Sky are using.

Of course, part of the reason he left Sky was his shady past, and who knows what he's up to now he's working with Riis...


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## smutchin (6 Jun 2013)

Strathlubnaig said:


> I think you missed my point.


 
What, that we're all blind idiots who just assume Sky are clean because they're Good Old Brits rather than Dirty Foreigners?

If that's what you're suggesting, you're plain wrong.


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## ColinJ (6 Jun 2013)

Froome-dog's bite is worse than his bark!


----------



## Buddfox (6 Jun 2013)

I enjoyed Vaughters' tweets today as the last climb unfolded:

"This is classic Empire vs Rebel Alliance bike racing!" (I think at about the point Valverde went off the front)

...and then later: "It would seem that at about 5kms to go in today's stage, Brailsford said '...fully operational Death Star...'"


----------



## beastie (6 Jun 2013)

An interesting post over on bike radar, contending that sky's dominance Is not so complete "1 win from 10 GT's and zero classics." 

I think they may win a few out of the next 10 mind.


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## 400bhp (6 Jun 2013)

Buddfox said:


> I enjoyed Vaughters' tweets today as the last climb unfolded:
> 
> "This is classic Empire vs Rebel Alliance bike racing!" (I think at about the point Valverde went off the front)
> 
> ...and then later: "It would seem that at about 5kms to go in today's stage, Brailsford said '...fully operational Death Star...'"


 

Valverde as Rebel Alliance


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## 400bhp (6 Jun 2013)

beastie said:


> An interesting post over on bike radar, contending that sky's dominance Is not so complete "1 win from 10 GT's and zero classics."
> 
> I think they may win a few out of the next 10 mind.


 

Or, one GT win in only 3 year's of bike racing.


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## montage (7 Jun 2013)

Does anybody have a link to what David Walsh has been saying about his stay with Sky? That should put the cork in the cinic's mouths


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## rich p (7 Jun 2013)

Strathlubnaig said:


> I think you missed my point.


I don't think I did.
I was implying that Sky riders tend to perform consistently and how one would expect, in all races, big and small.
My witch finder general radar gets twitchy when riders have very inconsistent performances but manage to peak for GTs.
As I said, other explanations are possible and you maybe subscribe to those.


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## rich p (7 Jun 2013)

smutchin said:


> He was always a good rider, but he noticeably improved when he joined Sky. I was hinting that the fact he's still a good rider now he's no longer with Sky suggests he is still benefitting from the training techniques he learnt while he was at Sky. Or, if you don't believe Sky are clean, he's still using the same doping techniques that Sky are using.
> 
> Of course, part of the reason he left Sky was his shady past, and who knows what he's up to now he's working with Riis...


There's an interview with him now on cyclingnews where he states that his move was simply financial and that
"_Sky's pledge involved all staff having to sign a document stating that they had never taken drugs in sport, nor been part of any doping practices._
_"I went through the same meetings as everyone, I signed it_," Rogers told _Cyclingnews_

Of course, as Mandy Rice-Davies said....


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## Pedrosanchezo (7 Jun 2013)

rich p said:


> I don't think I did.
> I was implying that Sky riders tend to perform consistently and how one would expect, in all races, big and small.
> My witch finder general radar gets twitchy when riders have very inconsistent performances but manage to peak for GTs.
> As I said, other explanations are possible and you maybe subscribe to those.


One could suggest that Wiggins' 2012 season might set off alarm bells, and indeed it did with some. If he was of different nationality do you think there would be more mud slung? Do you think the French, Spanish and the Italians sit on their equivalent of CC and suggest similar conspiracy theories until their digits hurt - RE Wiggins or Froome?

Personally speaking i can only hope no such thing will ever come to light but i would never bet my house on it. Most will say his rise to 2012 was from sheer hard work and a background as an already uber talented track star/timetriallist. I would agree, FWIW, i am merely pointing out that even team Sky (and their riders) should be looked at with the same scepticism as the foreign pack.

I do get slightly put off when doping is mentioned in cycling but sadly the other option is to bury ones head in the sand and that's a far worse alternative.


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## smutchin (7 Jun 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> Sky (and their riders) should be looked at with the same scepticism as the foreign pack.



No. All riders on all teams should be judged by a rational assessment of the available evidence.

Anyway, isn't there some racing to talk about?


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## rich p (7 Jun 2013)

Nationality has nothing to do with doping. If they were Brits and I thought they were guilty I'd mudsling too. To suggest otherwise Pedroetc is complete twaddle. I form my opinions on the circumstantial evidence available.
FWIW, I am an Italophile but I'm happy to finger their guilty riders
Anyway, back to the racing, as Smutchin points out...
Just one Cat1 climb today so maybe a day for a chancer to make a name for himself.


----------



## Slaav (7 Jun 2013)

Only managed to watch the highlights this morning.
I must say they kept my attention at the end 

I am in slightly two minds about Froome's 'assasination' of Bertie at the end? WHilst I loved it and it was great viewing, did he need to do that? COuld he have just sat there and watched Bertie try and break him while sucking his wheel and Bertie gaining no time? Imagine the spectacle of Bertie attacking again and again with Froome simply sticking to him and not bursting?

The reason I ask is that it appeared to me that Bertie realised he wasnt going ot take the stage and gain some time so simply didnt go for it at max. He seemed to keep himself in check and ride out rather than give it 100%?

Whilst winning the stage so 'easily' will have worked wonders for Froome/Sky and his confidence, I am not sure it shows that Bertie cannot attack and beat him.

Great result though!


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## smutchin (7 Jun 2013)

Slaav said:


> WHilst I loved it and it was great viewing, did he need to do that?


 
I think the first part of that sentence answers the second.

Wiggins gets criticised for never going on the attack. Now Froome gets criticised for doing the opposite. Ho hum.


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## Slaav (7 Jun 2013)

smutchin said:


> I think the first part of that sentence answers the second.
> 
> Wiggins gets criticised for never going on the attack. Now Froome gets criticised for doing the opposite. Ho hum.


 
Dont get me wrong, I loved it and think it was great viewing and sport. It also shows that there are two ways to skin every cat - and both can work! I also was not criticising it but simply questioning the tactics as a whole? As in 'did he need to do it'?

Loved it and also loved the SKy Death Star approach - maybe I am just odd


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## ColinJ (7 Jun 2013)

I don't race, but if I did and I got a sniff of a win then I would bust a gut going for it! Okay, in a stage race you have the overall to think about as well, but nipping past Contador at the finish is going to help Froome in the psychological battle and isn't going to cause him problems in the physical battle, so go for it!

What racing doesn't need is the kind of nonsense between Armstrong and Pantani at the Ventoux ...



Incidentally, did anybody at the time really believe that Armstrong was doing rides like that, clean!


----------



## smutchin (7 Jun 2013)

Slaav said:


> not criticising it but simply questioning the tactics as a whole? As in 'did he need to do it'?


 
He won the stage with panache and is in the overall lead, so I'm not sure what there is to question.


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## rich p (7 Jun 2013)

FWIW, @Slaav, I thought it looked as if Bertie was eyeballs out, on the last stretch, to stay with Froome.


----------



## jdtate101 (7 Jun 2013)

rich p said:


> FWIW, @Slaav, I thought it looked as if Bertie was eyeballs out, on the last stretch, to stay with Froome.


 

Agree, he looked spent with 100m to go, hence dropped by 4secs, not that 4secs makes a huge difference when put into context with the disaster that was his ITT. When he attacked there wasn't the instant distance from the pack that we are used to see him create. The same happened at Oman, he jumped and was caught then beaten on the line.


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## The Couch (7 Jun 2013)

Slaav said:


> ... COuld he have just sat there and watched Bertie try and break him while sucking his wheel and Bertie gaining no time?  ...


 
I believe Froome is somebody who really wants to win stages when he feels he can.

(Which is why I believe he had so much trouble waiting for Wiggo - in last years Tour - the stage that Valverde won... since he felt he could ride to him and take the win)

If Busche would have been too far out, I believe he would have been satisfied sticking with Contador. because indeed as you say Froome didn't really need any more extra time on Contador.
(although probably he still would have given it all to beat him in the sprint for second place, since he does seem to take those little things/signs important)


I actually felt that right after the finish Froome seemed a little bit drained, so it seemed to me that that long acceleration needed to catch Bussche in the last 500m had cost him (in my opinion) too much unnecessary powers. But again... I just think it's in Froome's personality to not let a (stage) win go by.


----------



## The Couch (7 Jun 2013)

jdtate101 said:


> Agree, he looked spent with 100m to go, hence dropped by 4secs, not that 4secs makes a huge difference when put into context with the disaster that was his ITT. When he attacked there wasn't the instant distance from the pack that we are used to see him create. The same happened at Oman, he jumped and was caught then beaten on the line.


 
I guess everybody already had that feeling last year in the Vuelta, but especially this year (with an assumed much better preparation) his attacks have looked very weak... Then again in the early races, he was already looking behind his shoulder (and not being able to continue the acceleration) after creating a gap of a mere 5m, so at least yesterday seemed an improvement on the panache of Contador... but yeah, it seems he ain't the pre2012 (Dirty?) Berty anylonger.


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## Slaav (7 Jun 2013)

The Couch said:


> I believe Froome is somebody who really wants to win stages when he feels he can.
> 
> (Which is why I believe he had so much trouble waiting for Wiggo - in last years Tour - the stage that Valverde won... since he felt he could ride to him and take the win)
> 
> ...


 
Thanks to all for the varying but also consitent replies to my question  I guess it can be summed up as :

Won the stage
With Panache
Gained time
Beat Dirty Bertie when challenged
Comfortably
Set out a marker
It was only for 100-200m all out so shouldnt do much damage overall to his recovery
Great viewing
Exciting racing leaving you wanting more and
Cannot wait for next episode 

So overall - I'll get my coat and not question the wisdom of it.....


----------



## rich p (7 Jun 2013)

...is that a flounce?


----------



## rich p (7 Jun 2013)

I know I whinge about commentators and I know it's a tough job etc etc but does Carlton Kirby have to fill every second with ums, ahs, I say, I tell you what, putting the hurt on blah
Sometimes less is more.


----------



## Noodley (7 Jun 2013)

rich p said:


> ISometimes less is more.


 
Totally agree.

BTW did you know that you had made 15,706 posts on cyclechat?


----------



## Strathlubnaig (7 Jun 2013)

Bravo Tommy V !!! Chapeau.....


----------



## Herzog (7 Jun 2013)

Astana...face palm...


----------



## Dave Davenport (7 Jun 2013)

Get in there! Great finish from TV.


----------



## Strathlubnaig (7 Jun 2013)

Love Tommy V, great the way he animates a race, never fails to make an effort. Makes up for that loss in Belgium to the Vini Fantini bloke.


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## Strathlubnaig (7 Jun 2013)

Tell you what, Froome keeps up with the fluent Francais, it goes a long way to win the hearts n minds for Le Tour. Bon effort.


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## rich p (7 Jun 2013)

Good win for Tommy. Montage will not be happy at the gurning tongue-loller!


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## Dave Davenport (7 Jun 2013)

rich p said:


> gurning tongue-loller!


 
That's just his version of a poker face, nobody has any idea how he's feeling 'cos he does it all the time.


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## Strathlubnaig (7 Jun 2013)

rich p said:


> Good win for Tommy. Montage will not be happy at the gurning tongue-loller!


Give me Tommy's animated coupon anyday over some grim faced expressionless tempo rider.


----------



## jdtate101 (7 Jun 2013)

Love Tommy's gurning....You know when he's on the rivet when he starts dragging his tongue on the handlebars


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## Slaav (7 Jun 2013)

rich p said:


> ...is that a flounce?


 
oh contrare Rodders......

I thought we were mainly 'blokes' on here and they don't by definition flounce?

Seriously though, I thought my initial critique/question was OK but could see both sides so raised the question. Having read the various posts and realised I may not be right and even more importantly, may know less than others - let alone Froom himself and Brailsford, I conceded defeat  (And I thought I withdrew/conceded quite nicely....)

Hope no offence caused or misunderstandings - when I get the hump or 4rse with something, it really is blatantly clear and not open to misunderstandings!

Roll on tomorrow.......


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## rich p (7 Jun 2013)

I didn't really think it was!
mange tout, mange tout.


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## Herzog (7 Jun 2013)

jdtate101 said:


> Love Tommy's gurning....You know when he's on the rivet when he starts dragging his tongue on the handlebars


 

Or when the TV feed goes live...(http://cyclingtips.com.au/2013/06/the-secret-pro-3/)


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## jdtate101 (7 Jun 2013)

Herzog said:


> Or when the TV feed goes live...(http://cyclingtips.com.au/2013/06/the-secret-pro-3/)


 

Also true enough.........


----------



## Radchenister (7 Jun 2013)

ColinJ said:


> Froome-dog's bite is worse than his bark!


 

Ooh I do like a good one liner  !


----------



## montage (7 Jun 2013)

rich p said:


> Good win for Tommy. Montage will not be happy at the gurning tongue-loller!


 
Somebody should slap him in the collarbone


----------



## Pedrosanchezo (7 Jun 2013)

ColinJ said:


> I don't race, but if I did and I got a sniff of a win then I would bust a gut going for it! Okay, in a stage race you have the overall to think about as well, but nipping past Contador at the finish is going to help Froome in the psychological battle and isn't going to cause him problems in the physical battle, so go for it!
> 
> What racing doesn't need is the kind of nonsense between Armstrong and Pantani at the Ventoux ...
> 
> ...



Pantani ended up very offended by that finish did he not? RE Armstrong, i am sorry to say i didn't doubt him till later in his career. Naivety at it's best.


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## Pedrosanchezo (7 Jun 2013)

rich p said:


> FWIW, @Slaav, I thought it looked as if Bertie was eyeballs out, on the last stretch, to stay with Froome.


No doubt he was. Had to sit down which usually means Bertie is buggered. Froome done this too him previously this year too. Oman i think. Second last stage?


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## ColinJ (7 Jun 2013)

Radchenister said:


> Ooh I do like a good one liner  !


So did I, until I found out they were illegal! 








_Drugs reference. Joke. Never mind ..._ 

Oh ... I haven't got time to check for other mentions - the Lincoln Grand Prix is just starting on British Eurosport.


----------



## Pedrosanchezo (7 Jun 2013)

Noodley said:


> Totally agree.
> 
> BTW did you know that you had made 15,706 posts on cyclechat?


Best comeback i've seen on CC.


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## Pedrosanchezo (7 Jun 2013)

Herzog said:


> Astana...face palm...


So so bad. Two against one!! Simples - one attacks and the other wheel sucks to the finish but they attacked and stopped, hummed and hawed and finally decided that they would both try and out sprint him!! WTF!! Idiots. One in front and one behind him, that way they dictate the pace and have a rider on his wheel.


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## ColinJ (7 Jun 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> Pantani ended up very offended by that finish did he not?


He did! Armstrong talked of gifting the stage to Pantani as a show of respect, and then showed no respect by referring to him as 'Elefantino' - 'little elephant', a reference to his big ears!

Incidentally, this nickname obviously did get to Pantani because I saw him on training on the Costa Blanca a year before he died and he'd just had his ears pinned back (and a nose job)!


----------



## Dave Davenport (7 Jun 2013)

ColinJ said:


> he'd just had his ears pinned back (and a nose job)!


 
That was after the wind tunnel TT set up tests.


----------



## ColinJ (7 Jun 2013)

I know Pantani was a cheat, but at least I liked him. I never really liked Armstrong.

I descended one Costa Blanca mountain as Pantani was climbing it in training. It was an impressive sight!


----------



## Pedrosanchezo (8 Jun 2013)

ColinJ said:


> I know Pantani was a cheat, but at least I liked him. I never really liked Armstrong.
> 
> I descended one Costa Blanca mountain as Pantani was climbing it in training. It was an impressive sight!


Passed each other at about the same speed?


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## ColinJ (8 Jun 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> Passed each other at about the same speed?


Well, he looked like he was in the big ring! I had limped up the same climb in a 39/29 gear a few days before. Mind you, I was fuelled only by toast, jam, croissants, a banana and a couple of coffees ...


----------



## smutchin (8 Jun 2013)

Just tuned in in time for the last 10km... Crikey. That is a very select group left in the race.


----------



## smutchin (8 Jun 2013)

Sanchez digging deep into the suitcase of courage on this final climb.


----------



## deptfordmarmoset (8 Jun 2013)

Sanchez is really suffering!


----------



## smutchin (8 Jun 2013)

Samuuuuuuuu! I think he enjoyed that.


----------



## smutchin (8 Jun 2013)

Great ride by Stef Clement too.


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## montage (8 Jun 2013)

Kennaugh and G climbing very well


----------



## Crackle (8 Jun 2013)

Not quite sure why Porte attacked at the end. Did he think he could catch the leaders or was he cementing 2nd by an.......errr..........second?


----------



## rich p (8 Jun 2013)

I have no idea unless he thought they were closer and he could catch them


----------



## threebikesmcginty (8 Jun 2013)

Wonder what Shirley thinks about it?


----------



## Pedrosanchezo (9 Jun 2013)

Just caught up with yesterdays stage. Wow Sanchez was in a world of hurt there! He deserved that win. 

Think Porte attacked to try put more time into 3rd place. Didn't work out as planned but i think that was the purpose of the attack.


----------



## smutchin (9 Jun 2013)

Contador is making a right old wiggins of this race.


----------



## smutchin (9 Jun 2013)

Stannard, on the other hand, is looking extremely comfortable in these awful conditions. Good lad. EBH likewise.


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## raindog (9 Jun 2013)

Voeckler out - he's got his stage, so he's off home. Crap conditions.


----------



## smutchin (9 Jun 2013)

Contador off the front, Rogers off the back...

Oh, hang on, this is interesting - Contador has dropped back to help Rogers.

Sky really putting the hammer down now. Kiryienka, Stannard, Kennaugh and EBH have done their bit. Geraint leading the train.


----------



## montage (9 Jun 2013)

Throwing away a potential stage win in order to try and protect 3rd (with a low likelihood of doing so). Definitely questionable tactics from the Saxobank management


----------



## smutchin (9 Jun 2013)

Froome and Porte hit the front with just over 2km to go. Aaaaaand... they've dropped everyone. FFS.


----------



## Herzog (9 Jun 2013)

Froome could have got that!


----------



## smutchin (9 Jun 2013)

Well, all the live streams seemed to go down moments after Froome & Porte hit the front, so I didn't see the finish. Annoying. Sounds like an impressive finish from Talansky though.


----------



## raindog (9 Jun 2013)

That was bizarre.


----------



## Crackle (9 Jun 2013)

You could see DiMarchi (sp?) dig in when he got word of the Froome attack, good win by him. Wrong call by Froome and Contador.


----------



## deptfordmarmoset (9 Jun 2013)

smutchin said:


> Well, all the live streams seemed to go down moments after Froome & Porte hit the front, so I didn't see the finish. Annoying. Sounds like an impressive finish from Talansky though.


My stream stayed up for the finish but we didn't see Talansky until he suddenly emerged out of the mist.


----------



## rich p (9 Jun 2013)

Another move too late for Porte to be gifted the win. Just like yesterday RP didn't quite have enough but I suppose Froome gets some pleasure for trying when he could clearly have taken the stage if he's wanted.
It'll all fade to insignificance in the big one soon anyway where Froome looks pretty unbeatable on this showing.


----------



## raindog (9 Jun 2013)

Froome couldn't win the stage, so why drag a team-mate 2 kilometres to gift a win, then accelerate and drop him to take a pointless second place? I'd love to, but I really can't warm to the bloke. He doesn't seem to have any sporting class at all.


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## montage (9 Jun 2013)

raindog said:


> Froome couldn't win the stage, so why drag a team-mate 2 kilometres to gift a win, then accelerate and drop him to take a pointless second place? I'd love to, but I really can't warm to the bloke. He doesn't seem to have any sporting class at all.


 

If anything, role reversal provides fantastic training regarding pacing strategies.


----------



## thom (9 Jun 2013)

Just caught the highlights from my hotel room on the outskirts of Avignon. In the distance, Ventoux is brooding, the top cloaked in clouds, as if still to finalise the set for an upcoming event...
Froome looks like something special for British cycling going forward. I really hope he takes this form through to the tour. I just love the way he can finish off the uphill finishes - no other British rider has a comparable talent. A pure racer like Contador or Nibali can still beat him but apart from that rainy day in Italy, nobody has posed a similar problem.
That is 3 separate week long stage race wins in addition to second in Tirreno-Adriatico (iirc), with the Paris-Nice winner in his service too - surely SKY are better placed this year for the tour than last ?
Chapeau Chris Froome !


----------



## johnr (9 Jun 2013)

So was Contador hamstrung by rubbish team orders, or just grabbing a fig leaf to cover his inability to challenge Froome? Or was he just eating the wrong kind of beef?


----------



## lukesdad (9 Jun 2013)

johnr said:


> So was Contador hamstrung by rubbish team orders, or just grabbing a fig leaf to cover his inability to challenge Froome? Or was he just eating the wrong kind of beef?


 
You tell us


----------



## Flying_Monkey (10 Jun 2013)

Reading through the posts on other forums it seems that everyone else is all but convinced that Froome not Contador is the one on something.


----------



## beastie (10 Jun 2013)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Reading through the posts on other forums it seems that everyone else is all but convinced that Froome not Contador is the one on something.


Is that not a few people making a lot of noise? I occasionally browse Bikeradar, coz there is a fair bit of info and knowledge, but I can rarely be arsed to post due to the high ratio of retards. There are a few anti sky who accuse Froome, but one of them thinks Contador is god and likes riders in the vein of Di Luca and Vino. Pot and kettle etc. not "everyone else", not by a long way.


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## rich p (10 Jun 2013)

It's an easy accusation to make of Froome. He was a virtual unknown before his meteoric rise in the 2011 Vuelta and subsequent success. The Sky train , on the surface, looks like the USPS one and so draws comparison with Armstrong. The Clinic posters are frothing at the mouth with indignation about all things Sky but then they froth at anyone who wins a race.
Contador is clearly riding clean (or unprepared) at the moment as indicated by his appalling TTing. Only a couple of years ago he was beating Cancellara in them. It should be a good TdF if an attacking Contador can challenge the pretty dull Sky tactics though.


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## The Couch (10 Jun 2013)

rich p said:


> ...
> Contador is clearly riding clean (or unprepared) at the moment as indicated by his appalling TTing. Only a couple of years ago he was beating Cancellara in them. It should be a good TdF if an attacking Contador can challenge the pretty dull Sky tactics though.


 
Indeed the (current) TT qualities of Contador are becoming his downfall. He is - I believe - still a decent enough climber to have a good shot at winning a Grand Tour, but it's his big decline in TT that is his Achilles Heel.
I think he should be very happy with the fact that the 2nd TT in this year Tour (stage 17) is Giro 2013-ish and not Tour 2012-ish.

Then again... it might (and most likely will) very well show that this year Froome is also the better climber


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## smutchin (10 Jun 2013)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Reading through the posts on other forums it seems that everyone else is all but convinced that Froome not Contador is the one on something.



But have they posted anything resembling evidence or just innuendo based on a superficial resemblance to USPS?


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## The Couch (10 Jun 2013)

smutchin said:


> But have they posted anything resembling evidence or just innuendo based on a superficial resemblance to USPS?


If so... I am pretty sure we would know (and be discussing it as well)


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## Slaav (10 Jun 2013)

The last few comments have encouraged me to pop over and have a look at other sites for comedy value.

Personally, I think that Sky (as a whole) are certainly clean. I also believe Froome is clean.

It is such a shame that Sky have genuinely broken new boudaries in Pro Cycling and are having quite a few fingers pointed at it! From memory, PHarmstrong had detractors quite early on didn't he? Rumours (based on supposed facts) were flying around in earnest as soon as it was decided that running a la Dirty Bertie was not really acceptable anymore?

All Sky have to 'prove' doping is their success and the jump in performance of a couple of riders?

As far as Froome is concerned, didn't he underperform quite a bit adn was a puzzle to Sky until they figured out and sorted his medical issues? And Wiggo can hardly be accused of a sudden jump in performance when you look at his career.....

LAstly on this, reading a couple of books, inc Wiggo and some stuff from Cav, it appears that in the 'old days' Pro cyclists were almost left to themselves to train as long as they turned up for the race as told? The sheer professionalism of Sky has driven the whole sport forward in leaps and bounds.


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## rich p (10 Jun 2013)

Froome had or has, bilharzia. One of the comments that amused me in the Clinic was that he uses this to mask his doping, as the illness means that his blood passport readings would be skewed.


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## smutchin (10 Jun 2013)

Slaav said:


> LAstly on this, reading a couple of books, inc Wiggo and some stuff from Cav, it appears that in the 'old days' Pro cyclists were almost left to themselves to train as long as they turned up for the race as told? The sheer professionalism of Sky has driven the whole sport forward in leaps and bounds.


 
"Old" days? It's still the way most teams work, afaik. Proper pastoral care and structured training are very recent innovations in cycling. Garmin have been the real pioneers in this respect. Sky followed their example and took it up a level by bringing in the likes of Tim Kerrison (which they can do because they're so much better funded than Garmin). Compare and contrast with the likes of AG2R, who have a vocally anti-doping team boss but don't keep close enough track of their riders to either prevent them doping or know they're doing it (ie Steve Houanard).

I mean, I believe Vincent Lavenu has his heart in the right place, but he's too rooted in the old ways of doing things.


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## Crackle (10 Jun 2013)

rich p said:


> Froome had or has, bilharzia. One of the comments that amused me in the Clinic was that he uses this to mask his doping, as the illness means that his blood passport readings would be skewed.


 
No one knows what the clinic uses to mask any semblance of coherence. It is rapidly becoming a parody of itself.


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## Hont (10 Jun 2013)

raindog said:


> Froome couldn't win the stage, so why drag a team-mate 2 kilometres to gift a win, then accelerate and drop him to take a pointless second place? I'd love to, but I really can't warm to the bloke. He doesn't seem to have any sporting class at all.


 

If Porte had been able to follow at Froome's pace, they may have just been able to get the win - that certainly appeared to be the plan. I believe that he only "dropped" Porte to ensure that Talansky did not take 2nd on the day. A minor victory perhaps, but any psychological advantage is worth taking.


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## Hont (10 Jun 2013)

smutchin said:


> But have they posted anything resembling evidence or just innuendo based on a superficial resemblance to USPS?


 

That's all some people need unfortunately.

The only similarity I see is the tactics themselves - ride a hard tempo up climbs to minimise the chances of attacks and prevent your leader from becoming isolated - and they're not the first to mimic them (think Liquigas in the Giro for Basso). You don't need to be doping to employ these tactics at the rate the peloton climbs these days. What you need is strong riders at peak fitness. Sky have the budget and the structure for both.

Froome's rise is a different issue. There may be explanations remarkable late blooming, but I can understand the suspicion. It was as well for his credibility that his Vuelta performance tailed off last year as not even Contador has made the podium on back to back GTs.


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## smutchin (10 Jun 2013)

Hont said:


> Froome's rise is a different issue. There may be explanations for his late and remarkable late blooming, but I can understand the suspicion.


 
It's not really that late a blooming, is it? He's been among the genuine GC contenders since 2011, when he was 26 and arguably could have won a GT or two by now if he'd been given the opportunity. That's about the right age to bloom - riders have won it younger, eg Fignon, Ullrich, Contador, Schleck, but it's not common.

Before that... well, 2010 was a bad year for him personally with his illness, and a pretty disastrous year for Team Sky in general, so you can't really judge him on that. Prior to 2010, he was putting in some decent performances on a second-tier team. Not being a track cyclist is the main reason he didn't have much of a public profile in the UK prior to 2011 (unlike Barloworld team-mate Geraint Thomas), but he did well in the Giro in 2009, and the British Cycling coaches were obviously paying enough attention to recognise his potential and to want him in the Team Sky set-up.

Anyone who says that he arrived on the podium from nowhere in 2011 is being a little unfair on him. It's not hard to knock down the supposedly "reasonable grounds for suspicion" if you actually look at the facts.

Not that I'm suggesting this is proof that he's clean, mind. I'd just like to see some actual evidence before jumping to conclusions.

[edit: sorry, I'm not having a go at you personally, Hont. I know why you say you can understand the suspicion, and I might have felt the same in the past, but I'm training myself to be more circumspect about interpreting what people say about pro cyclists.]


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## oldroadman (10 Jun 2013)

It's all a bit sad that some people on the forums are so cynical and unable to accept success.Cyclingnews is full of what appear to be unpleasant jealous posters - mostly US based from the language use and spelling - who cannot believe that a well drilled team using correct tactics to minimise the chance of attacks, which are trained properly, are not using something illegal. Their "proof" is winning. Which taken to the extreme means every under 12 who wins a little circuit race is being fed chemical assistance by their parents and coaches. Would anyone believe that, because by extension it's still success and therefore must be tainted. What a sad lot these trolls are.


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## The Couch (10 Jun 2013)

oldroadman said:


> .... Which taken to the extreme means every under 12 who wins a little circuit race is being fed chemical assistance by their parents and coaches...


 
Wait... you don't feed your kids chemicals to improve their performances?

No.. no... i see, you're joking.... right?!?


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## oldroadman (10 Jun 2013)

The Couch said:


> Wait... you don't feed your kids chemicals to improve their performances?
> 
> No.. no... i see, you're joking.... right?!?


 
Extrapolation to illustrate a point, of course. Only an idiot would use anything on either themselves or their family.


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## 400bhp (10 Jun 2013)

:sigh:

degrades into doping talk...again.

I guess one of the issues is that cycling tours don't have easily available data for comparables, such as average speed up a particular climb, to compare year on year.

I know there's some stuff out there but nothing the race organisers/UCI seem to produce.

You just win events.

I would guess Froome's power per kilo up the major climbs is at the lower end of the winners of grand tours over the last 20 years, but I don't know?


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## Slaav (11 Jun 2013)

400bhp said:


> :sigh:
> 
> degrades into doping talk...again.
> 
> ...


 
One could always use Strava???


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## Flying_Monkey (11 Jun 2013)

I was really making the point that CC is remarkably free of the cynical attitude which infects other sites, even while people here are certainly not naive.


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## VamP (11 Jun 2013)

I'm naive


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## rich p (11 Jun 2013)

Flying_Monkey said:


> I was really making the point that CC is remarkably free of the cynical attitude which infects other sites, even while people here are certainly not naive.


Indeed.
My point, and also made by other CCers, is that the style and results of Sky, Froome and Wiggins makes it an easy, lazy comparison with USPS.


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## The Couch (11 Jun 2013)

VamP said:


> I'm naive


That's still fine, you don't understand most things anyway ... I have a strange sense of humour, try living with that


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## smutchin (11 Jun 2013)

400bhp said:


> I guess one of the issues is that cycling tours don't have easily available data for comparables, such as average speed up a particular climb, to compare year on year.


 
Even if you have that data, you can't make a meaningful comparison because climbs appear at different points in the race from year to year - both within stages and within the race overall.


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## VamP (11 Jun 2013)

smutchin said:


> Even if you have that data, you can't make a meaningful comparison because climbs appear at different points in the race from year to year - both within stages and within the race overall.



Not to mention people having different objectives and races unfolding differently. Any comparisons would be meaningless.


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## Pedrosanchezo (11 Jun 2013)

VamP said:


> Not to mention people having different objectives and races unfolding differently. Any comparisons would be meaningless.


Plus there was all those drugs back then.


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## VamP (11 Jun 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> Plus there was all those drugs back then.



Sounds just like being at uni.


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## 400bhp (11 Jun 2013)

smutchin said:


> Even if you have that data, you can't make a meaningful comparison because climbs appear at different points in the race from year to year - both within stages and within the race overall.


 

I was waiting for someone to pick up on that, but with enough data (power and weight for one) meaningful comparisons can be made.


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## montage (12 Jun 2013)

What is that latest from David Walsh?


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## Noodley (12 Jun 2013)

montage said:


> What is that latest from David Walsh?


 
He says that he thinks you're a nobber.


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## smutchin (12 Jun 2013)

> @DavidWalsh: Enjoying life on the Death Star. Tell you what, Sir Dave mixes a shoot-hot vodka martini. Just seen Kiryienka snorting coke off a podium girl's tits. Feckin' A.


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## The Couch (12 Jun 2013)

smutchin said:


> Just seen Kiryienka snorting coke off a podium girl's tits


 
That's about as close that he's going to get to the podium anyway (riding for Sky)
So at least, he can make it count


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## GilesM (12 Jun 2013)

I was working just outside Grenoble last week, didn't get to see the race due to my work, but this lot all appeared at my Hotel on the Friday evening, very impressive to see close up.


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## lukesdad (12 Jun 2013)

rich p said:


> Indeed.
> My point, and also made by other CCers, is that the style and results of Sky, Froome and Wiggins makes it an easy, lazy comparison with USPS.


The comparison with USPS, is quite frightening. I would of thought the emergence of another dominant super team would be quite worrying to those wishing to clean up pro racing and not for the reason that the super team would be using the drugs.


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## Flying_Monkey (12 Jun 2013)

smutchin said:


> Even if you have that data, you can't make a meaningful comparison because climbs appear at different points in the race from year to year - both within stages and within the race overall.


 
It's quite easy to generate comparable power output figures - even with the changes to where any particular climb appears in a stage, averaged across a whole GT you can get a meaningful data set, and you can do this retrospectively too. And the figures I have seen, for example for Nibali at the Giro this year compared to previous winners from 5 or 10 years ago, show that the average power output on climbs race was well within the bounds of what is possible unaided. For many previous years, less so. I haven't seen such an analysis on Froome at the Dauphiné yet but I would be surprised if it didn't show something similar. The peloton is slower, less powerful and even many 'outstanding' performances are, when analysed like this, not superhuman at all - they are simply outstanding within what is possible. The cynics just see a rider winning or 'dominating' and think that's evidence enough for them, but the context is really important.


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## smutchin (12 Jun 2013)

Flying_Monkey said:


> It's quite easy to generate comparable power output figures - even with the changes to where any particular climb appears in a stage, averaged across a whole GT you can get a meaningful data set, and you can do this retrospectively too.


 
Apologies to 400bhp if I've just completely misunderstood him, but I thought he was talking about comparing individual performances on particular climbs, without that context.


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## Flying_Monkey (12 Jun 2013)

smutchin said:


> Apologies to 400bhp if I've just completely misunderstood him, but I thought he was talking about comparing individual performances on particular climbs, without that context.


 
Probably. I was really just making a more general point rather than specifically criticizing anyone.


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## Noodley (12 Jun 2013)

GilesM said:


> I was working just outside Grenoble last week, didn't get to see the race due to my work, but this lot all appeared at my Hotel on the Friday evening, very impressive to see close up.


 
Astana, Movistar and Saxo - the dark forces sharing 'preparation'?


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## GilesM (12 Jun 2013)

Noodley said:


> Astana, Movistar and Saxo - the dark forces sharing 'preparation'?


 

I didn't have the bottle to ask the cooks in Saxo Bank's kitchen truck if they had any of Mr Contador's special meat.


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## 400bhp (17 Jun 2013)

smutchin said:


> Apologies to 400bhp if I've just completely misunderstood him, but I thought he was talking about comparing individual performances on particular climbs, without that context.


 

Well, yes and no. My point was there should be something publicly available (and endorsed) that shows something that is broadly comparable. I understand it's difficult to do for an individual up one climb on a particular day, so you combine groups of data and use model points instead.

I've got this broad idea in my mind that the powers that be in any sport could harness the available data they have and set trigger points to investigate possible individuals that are up to no good.


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## The Couch (18 Jun 2013)

400bhp said:


> I've got this broad idea in my mind that the powers that be in any sport could harness the available data they have and set trigger points to investigate possible individuals that are up to no good.


 
And we could use these models to start a "PreCrime police force"  (starring Tom Cruise)


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