# etape Caledonia on an HPV SMGT



## Subflux (18 May 2010)

Stupid Question Alert:

I'm sure it comes down to personal choice and things, but I'm a total newbie, so would like your opinion:

Is it a daft idea to do the Etape Caledonia (81mi road race) on an original HP Velotechnik Street Machine GT, a big steel framed fully suspended touring recumbent.

I guess most folk will do it on road racing upright bikes, aluminium and carbon machines, where they've honed the weight down as much as they can?

Thanks for your opinions!


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## Riding in Circles (18 May 2010)

Should be fine, there are trikes on it I understand, you may find the Street Machine a bit heavy in the climbs, I would not hesitate to do it on a lighter bent.


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## Subflux (18 May 2010)

Thanks for the quick response!

So the only impact of a heavy bike is climb performance?

Will the Full Suspension have a part to play?


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## Riding in Circles (18 May 2010)

I have never seen the need for suspension on a bike, just adds weight.


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## Arch (18 May 2010)

No problem with doing any sportive on a recumbent, or a folder or a gaspipe sit up and beg, as long as you enjoy it (and preferably finish)!

You need to ask Arallsopp about his LEL though - he ditched a Streetmachine, I think, for something sportier....


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## HLaB (18 May 2010)

Ask LeeW about doing it on a bent, he did and his times were great.


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## Scoosh (18 May 2010)

I saw 1-and-a half 'bents on the Etape on Sunday.

The 1 was a drop-dead gorgeous M5 Carbon High Racer (I think), light as a feather and the wheels had been changed from carbon rims to alloy - to be a bit more comfortable over the 81 miles.

The "-and-a-half" was a tandem - recumbent at the front and upright at the back, which fairly flew past on the long stretch from Weem to Logierait. They seemed to be chatting as they flew too .

In terms of what 'bent to do the Etape on ... well it's much the same as what DF to use. There were lots of race bikes racing; race bikes getting round; tourers; audax-style bikes; flat-bar road bikes; mountain bikes; tandems (at least 6); and probaly other types as well. In other words, just about every type of DF was represented. It's not the bike, it's the challenge to the individual rider. Full/part suspension would give you lots of comfort but maybe slightly slower all round. If speed/time is important to you, get something lighter. If finishing is the challenge - go for it .

There is really only the one hill of any consequence and it can be walked  (and was by many...). [just ensure you are back on riding when the photographers are around ]


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## Subflux (19 May 2010)

Many thanks for all the replies!

I didn't intend asking about the feasibility of the Etape on a Recumbent vs an Upright - I don't know enought about bikes or cycling in general to know the implications of doing a "race" on a tourer like the SM be it 'bent or DF. Real noob here.

Scoosh - your post is just the kind of insight I was looking for.

I suppose I was worried about turing up to an event being the only one with a big heavy touring machine in amongst "proper" cyclists on carbon light-things; though riding through Glasgow City on a 'bent I suppose I'm pretty immune to looking a bit "different". 

Finishing is what I'm after, and enjoying the jaunt on lovely open roads will be great, but I can't help the competitive side I have in me. At least doing it once will give me a PB that I can then try and beat then next time... but it's still nice to do well overall!

Thanks again!


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## Scoosh (19 May 2010)

Subflux said:


> Many thanks for all the replies!
> 
> I didn't intend asking about the feasibility of the Etape on a Recumbent vs an Upright - I don't know enought about bikes or cycling in general to know the implications of doing a "race" on a tourer like the SM be it 'bent or DF. Real noob here.
> 
> ...


My pleasure 

If you're free this Saturday, why not bring yourself and your 'bent to the CC Ecosse Forum Ride from the FRB/Inverkeithing round Loch Leven - including a (compulsory ) cafe stop ? Details here and we'd (OK, _I'd_) love to see a 'bent joining us . Trains to Embra/InverK or Linlithgow and ride a bit .....

Waddya rekkon ?


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## Riding in Circles (19 May 2010)

Make sure you let us know how you get on on the Etape.


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## arallsopp (25 May 2010)

Arch said:


> No problem with doing any sportive on a recumbent, or a folder or a gaspipe sit up and beg, as long as you enjoy it (and preferably finish)!
> 
> You need to ask Arallsopp about his LEL though - he ditched a Streetmachine, I think, for something sportier....



Its true, and the ditchee was the lighter aluminium framed SMGT*e* too. I made the decision to use a lighter bent mainly because I was offered one at a much lower cost than I'd expected, and partly as a confidence booster (the event was some 620 miles further than my longest ride until then).

I still use the SMGTe as I find it more comfortable (and certainly more robust) than the Furai. Yes, it carries an 8kg weight penalty over the lighter bike, but its near bulletproof, very reliable, forgiving, and still competes with the DFs for speed on the flats. I managed to hold off a certain speedy forumite in a half mile sprint earlier this year.

Its certainly not a 'daft' idea. I suspect you could be quicker on the climbs with something lighter, but you can say that all the way to a 20k bike. 

Nowadays, I use the SMGTe if my destination dictates I absolutely* HAVE to arrive, and I'm looking for comfort over out and out speed. If I'm happy to forsake some of that comfort for velocity, with the added risk I mightn't get there at all, I take the Furai. 

Does that help?


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## arallsopp (25 May 2010)

Oh, and just a quickie on suspension. Given you can't de-weight a bent, suspension can be very useful up front for ironing out potholes that suddenly spring out from under the rider / vehicle / obstacle in front. I've had about 6 pinch punctures and one dinged rim on the Furai's front wheel that the SMGTe would have absorbed. Its not so bad if you keep tyre pressure towards the max at all times, but it does still happen. 

Rear suspension on the SMGTe is fine. Yes, its a little heavier than not having it, but the 'no squat' pivot is neatly positioned so as not to rob power from the pedal stroke. Takes a bit of the buzz off the road too. As the surface deteriorates, the fully suspended SMGTe becomes much faster than the Furai, as confidence is preserved and the rider spends less time travelling perpendicular to the planned direction of travel.

When I say 'deteriorated surface' I'm generally talking about the roads of SE London.


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## Subflux (25 May 2010)

Thanks Arallsopp, that's great insight - thanks for sharing.

I'm definitely happy enough to sign up for etape Caledonia if there's still spaces in a week. 

Makes me feel a bit stupid asking for advice about an 81mi ride when you are talking about distances 10 times that! 



> [FONT=&quot][/FONT]620 miles further than my longest ride until then



*further*! wow.


[FONT=&quot][/FONT]


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## arallsopp (25 May 2010)

No worries. One's first 80 miles are the hardest. 

Let us know how you get on, and good luck!


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## squeaker (26 May 2010)

*Suspension for minor roads*



arallsopp said:


> Oh, and just a quickie on suspension. Given you can't de-weight a bent, suspension can be very useful up front for ironing out potholes that suddenly spring out from under the rider / vehicle / obstacle in front.
> .
> .
> .
> Takes a bit of the buzz off the road too. As the surface deteriorates, the fully suspended SMGTe becomes much faster than the Furai, as confidence is preserved and the rider spends less time travelling perpendicular to the planned direction of travel.


+1. On my local 'quick' hill (now with new road chippings  ), with slight left after bump near the bottom, the Grasshopper (full suspension) just follows the road, the Trice (rear suspension only) tries to take off over the bump (so I have to aim inside the apex to stay roughly on-line) and the Raptobike (no suspension)shakes my eye balls so much I can barely see where I'm going.
Cycling up the hill is, of course, another story


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## Scoosh (26 May 2010)

squeaker said:


> +1. On my local 'quick' hill (now with new road chippings  ), with slight left after bump near the bottom, the Grasshopper (full suspension) just follows the road, the Trice (rear suspension only) tries to take off over the bump (so I have to aim inside the apex to stay roughly on-line) and the Raptobike (no suspension)shakes my eye balls so much I can barely see where I'm going.
> Cycling up the hill is, of course, another story


Very interesting and useful comparison there, squeaker 

Is the Rapto's


> shakes my eye balls so much I can barely see where I'm going


 because it is so much quicker then the others you can't see the bump/bend until you are on top of it  ???


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## PalmerSperry (26 May 2010)

scoosh said:


> Is the Rapto's because it is so much quicker then the others you can't see the bump/bend until you are on top of it  ???



Or because it's so fast that you can't see the bump/bend until _after_ you've passed it?


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## arallsopp (26 May 2010)

PalmerSperry said:


> Or because it's so fast that you can't see the bump/bend until _after_ you've passed it?



On the soft tail Furai, the surest way to spot the bump is generally from a stationary point, 40 yards down the road, with your eye as close to the tarmac as possible. Infact, I've been working on my 'speed dismount' for this very purpose, and have been known to combine it with an exercise in ad-hoc wheel building.

Actually, that's only happened once, and to be fair, I got only raspberries for my efforts. Given it was a 35 mph dismount, an upright would have been far worse.

The only other scary time was when a pot hole took out my front tube mid descent behind Mista Preston on a steep country lane. We were doing 30 something, and suddenly I couldn't steer or brake without inviting the tyre to leave the rim. Hairy, but manageable.

I rode the full suss SMGTe a while after that.


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## Fiona N (26 May 2010)

I'll second the suspension  I'd hate to ride a recumbent bike round our roads without front suspension.
My first summer with the Speedmachine showed just how useful it can be when I was out on a ride with a neighbour putting his new Trek road bike through it's paces. We headed off on a circuit we both use pretty often and which has an absolutely fantastic section of undulating twisty back road that starts with a fast downhill. This section has two gentle 'sleeping policemen' (aftermath of drainage pipes placed under the road) then there's a very fast beautifully cambered lefthand corner which ramps steeply uphill. If you keep off the brakes, momentum will take you up without changing down. On the Speedmachine with front sus, the sleeping policemen are trivial and I don't slow at all for them which meant I went into the corner a couple of seconds ahead of Kev. To my horror, on the apex of the corner, directly on the line I was taking, there was a large deep pothole which I hadn't seen until I was well into the corner because of the wall. The SpM hit the pothole, thunked the sus, then carried on with a bit of a wiggle. I shouted but was too late, Kev also hit the pothole and went over the bars as the front of the bike stopped dead despite the bigger 700 wheels. Fortunately he wasn't badly hurt - mainly gravel rash and dented pride - but the front wheel was pringled.


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## squeaker (27 May 2010)

scoosh said:


> Is the Rapto's because it is so much quicker then the others you can't see the bump/bend until you are on top of it  ???


Nope: if anything the Rapto's max speed is marginally less than the 'Hopper's (less weight, more rolling resistance on bumpy roads?). It coasts down further on the roll out, though


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## arallsopp (27 May 2010)

I'll second that. Assuming reasonably open roads (rather than the stop start commute) my SMGTe is just as fast as the much lighter Furai. Takes more effort to climb on (which I guess is just the weight really) but tends to descend faster too. Assuming the hills aren't too steep or plentiful it all averages out to the same speed, but the SMGTe is harder going.

When I realised I'd spend entire days dragging the bent up and down hills (cumbria, northumberland, scottish borders, midlothian and back) the Furai became my preferred choice. I was generally on the brakes for the descents anyway, so this was the better choice. 

If I do it again, will I use the Furai? Probably not. The SMGTe? Maybe... Some new Zockra lowracer? Oh, yes please 

Lessons learnt. Nil.


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## squeaker (28 May 2010)

*Suspension up-hills*



arallsopp said:


> Takes more effort to climb on (which I guess is just the weight really)


Not totally convinced that it's just the weight, as I think the suspension also soaks up a few watts. IIRC someone on BROL fitted either a platform or lockout rear shock to a Grasshopper and found climbing faster - might depend if you mash or spin, though.


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## Riding in Circles (28 May 2010)

squeaker said:


> Not totally convinced that it's just the weight, as I think the suspension also soaks up a few watts. IIRC someone on BROL fitted either a platform or lockout rear shock to a Grasshopper and found climbing faster - might depend if you mash or spin, though.



Suspension does sap a little bit of power, I have ridden all sorts being a dealer and just prefer non suspension bikes/trikes.


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## arallsopp (28 May 2010)

You might both be right there. I can only compare the SMGTe to the Furai, and both have a suspended rear.

I am confident that the suspension on the SMGTe doesn't generally compress under pedalling though. Mine needed a little TLC after the winter slush, and developed a sharp squeak whenever the rear triangle pivoted. Every little bump sounded the noise, but not spinning up hills. Under hard acceleration I could bring it forth, but only when mashing. 

I think it probably did wonders for my pedalling technique


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## Alf (28 May 2010)

That's my experience too. I am pretty sure my Grasshopper suspension doesn't move when I pedal. My Seiran SL seems faster to me (one day I will do some timed runs to check) but if the impression is accurate, I think it's because it is several kilos lighter and has bigger wheels (559 or 571, depending on the tyres I want to use) so less rolling resistance.


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## mcd (13 Jun 2010)

An interesting thread - apologies for clumping replies because I've not been here for a while:


Subflux said:


> Stupid Question Alert:
> Is it a daft idea to do the Etape Caledonia (81mi road race) on an original HP Velotechnik Street Machine GT, a big steel framed fully suspended touring recumbent.


I rode the first Etape Caledonia on my SM GTe without any problems (apart from a bad headset repair coming undone during the ride). Got the usual chuckles, accusations of cheating and complaints about lack of available draft (all light hearted). So if you can handle it on the hills, and keep in the minimum average speed, you'd be fine. 



scoosh said:


> I saw 1-and-a half 'bents on the Etape on Sunday.
> The 1 was a drop-dead gorgeous M5 Carbon High Racer (I think), light as a feather and the wheels had been changed from carbon rims to alloy - to be a bit more comfortable over the 81 miles.


'Twas mine - and a very perceptive guess about wheel selection. Last year I did it with a tub'ed disk wheel - too stiff for comfort on the south side of Loch Rannoch! It is a very nice light bike, though the feeling of lightness wears off after a while, at least until I re-set my weight perception with a ride on the SM! LeeW was also there this year.



Catrike UK said:


> Suspension does sap a little bit of power, I have ridden all sorts being a dealer and just prefer non suspension bikes/trikes.


I've only got extensive experience with two contrasting bikes when it comes to comfort & weight - but I'd agree with arallsopp about the lack of compression of the SM suspension under pedaling. I reckon that greater efficiency through improved road contact (eg no wheel spins after speed bumps) and reduced effort by the rider in absorbing shocks would make up for any imperceptible power lost in the SM's suspension.



arallsopp said:


> Oh, and just a quickie on suspension. Given you can't de-weight a bent, suspension can be very useful up front for ironing out potholes that suddenly spring out from under the rider / vehicle / obstacle in front.


While you can't de-weight a recumbent, if yer on one without suspension, the impact can be reduced by pushing yourself up the seat (or raising hips if position is more horizontal) just before pothole/bump. You're effectively using your body to absorb the shock, and making it easier to let the bike move underneath you - just as you'd do on a diamond framed bike.

Good to see this bit of the forum is still active - looks like there's more people than ever doing it in comfort and style. Enjoy!


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## arallsopp (13 Jun 2010)

mcd said:


> While you can't de-weight a recumbent, if yer on one without suspension, the impact can be reduced by pushing yourself up the seat (or raising hips if position is more horizontal) just before pothole/bump. You're effectively using your body to absorb the shock, and making it easier to let the bike move underneath you - just as you'd do on a diamond framed bike.



Must say, I've wondered about this for a while. I've always been a bit worried that going toes and shoulders on a bump would just increase the stress, as doing so effectively channels your weight onto opposite ends of the frame. The boom looks awful spindly on the Furai...

Result is, I tend to do the reverse, sitting up away from the seat back, and lifting my feet within the cleats. The flex of leg and stomach muscles seem to absorb some of the knock at least.

No idea of the science behind it though, so very good to read your first hand experiences.


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## Scoosh (13 Jun 2010)

mcd said:


> 'Twas mine - and a very perceptive guess about wheel selection.


'Twas you I spoke to after I had registered on the Sat - and requested a weight test of the bike  (graciously permitted ).

I admit 'twas not my observation about the wheels - 'twas that of your ladee friend who was telling me while you were distracted by (yet another ) enquiry.

What was your time for the Etape ?


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## mcd (15 Jun 2010)

I remember - good to meet you again (extends virtual handshake)!

My time was a shade over 4 hours - better than the 4:30 I was expecting given the (lack of) training. Legs were hurting big time towards the end! It would have been a shade under 4 hours but my stem snapped - just a bit toooo much weight shaved off that component. After a few moments of inspecting the new ventilation in my assoss shorts  and looking at the stem thinking HTF do I fix that, I managed to bodge a repair and carried on. Other than that, it was a great ride - will be back next year!

And yourself - how did you get on?


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## Riding in Circles (15 Jun 2010)

I think the SM is one of the better designs for rear suspension if I recall, the requirement to avoid squat and power loss os for the drive side of the chain to pass through or below the suspension pivot line, not all have this. I still prefer no suspension though. Everyone has their own preferences, I know people who prefer suspension and I can see the attraction on heavier machines as it makes them feel like lighter machines to ride.


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