# Faster/better 28c tyres for hybrid?



## toby123 (13 Dec 2009)

I have Spez Armadillo 700 x 28c road tyres on my hybrid, but have a suspicion that they are not the fastest tyres for this width. Also, when I fitted them, and when I had to change the inner tube of one due to a puncture (I went a bit off road), it was a bloody nightmare getting them on. 

Therefore, I am wondering if the fact that they are highly puncture-protected is making them slow and giving me this trouble. Are there any alternatives out there? Let's just say that I'm not too fussed about puncture protection, although are there any out there that offer the best of both worlds?


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## LazyLoki (13 Dec 2009)

Continental Gatorskin's are a bit lighter and probably a bit faster rolling, especially if you got the 25s or 23s as opposed to the 28s. Otherwise maybe the Schwalbe Ultremo R which are considerably lighter than the Armadillos (185g each as opposed to almost 500g each for the Armadillos).

The reduced weight on the rim will make your bike feel nippier and keeping the tires pumped up to the maximum will keep the rolling resistance down and help prevent punctures. Also, if you're going to stick on some lighter tires, take the opportunity to put in some lightweight tubes too, Bontrager XXX Lites weigh in at about 60g each compared to the normal kind of Specialized that weigh over 100g.

Changing to Ultremo R tires and Bonty XXX Lite tubes will save you almost 700g of weight (a significant amount) and all of it off the rim where it matters the most. It'll really change the feeling of your bike.


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## HJ (13 Dec 2009)

Yep Conti Gatorskins are the way to go...


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## dave r (13 Dec 2009)

I have one of these on the front of my fixed
http://www.allterraincycles.co.uk/product/119612.html
had it on a couple of months now, easy on of, grippy and no problems with it so far.
Planning to put one on the back when the gatorskin needs replacing.


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## Wilfred (13 Dec 2009)

> I have one of these on the front of my fixed
> http://www.allterraincycles.co.uk/product/119612.html
> had it on a couple of months now, easy on of, grippy and no problems with it so far.
> Planning to put one on the back when the gatorskin needs replacing.



Yep I have these on my Spesh Sirrus and they feel fast and light.


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## andrew_s (14 Dec 2009)

Conti GP 4 Seasons come in 28mm, and are nicer than the Gatorskins (and cost more). They are reasonably puncture resistant, at least until getting near to being worn out.



LazyLoki said:


> Changing to Ultremo R tires and Bonty XXX Lite tubes will save you almost 700g of weight (a significant amount) and all of it off the rim where it matters the most. It'll really change the feeling of your bike.


I think this is a "read the question" failure, unless you'd like to provide a link to where to buy 28mm Ultremo R tyres from?


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## GrasB (14 Dec 2009)

In reality there's very little difference between 700x28C All Condition Armadillo & Conti Gator Skins once rolling. The main difference is the way you accelerate/decelerate, with much more weight the tyre dampens effects on it, it is in effect a heaver fly wheel.


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## totallyfixed (14 Dec 2009)

dave r said:


> I have one of these on the front of my fixed
> http://www.allterraincycles.co.uk/product/119612.html
> had it on a couple of months now, easy on of, grippy and no problems with it so far.
> Planning to put one on the back when the gatorskin needs replacing.



Myself and Mrs TF have been riding these tyres on our fixed for 18 months now and not one puncture between us. What I disagree with Dave on though is that the tyre is grippy. Softer summer rubber is grippy, these are not called "hard case" for nothing. On saying that I have no problem with them, I'm just that tiny bit more careful when cornering in the wet.
Highly recommended tyres.
IMO Conti tyres are over rated and over priced. The gator skins nearly always let thorns through, I got so fed up with them I sold them at a cycle jumble.
You will always get people singing the praises of the tyres they are riding if they haven't had a puncture, but of course they could have just been plain lucky. I know 2 other people who use the Bontragers and between the 4 of us none have yet punctured, that's a lot of miles and you really, really don't want a rear wheel puncture on a fixed. Hope this helps.


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## Randochap (14 Dec 2009)

The same misconceptions arise on every tyre thread.

The OP inquired about faster alternatives to their present tyre _on a hybrid_ and -- correctly -- suspected there was a trade-off involved.

The downside to any performance tyre will be a less robust casing. A highly supple casing -- the hallmark of any fast tyre -- will necessarily be one that lets in more sharp objects.

The Schwalbe Ultremo, which I've used extensively, uses a high-tech, high-density vectran layer for protection. It is indeed a fast, _relatively_ puncture resistant tyre ... but it is not suitable for daily commuting. Incidentally, if you happen to be running Ultremo Rs, make sure they are not part of the recall batch!

The most persistent misapprehension regarding bicycle tyres is that thinner and harder is faster. This is simply _not_ the case, unless all your riding is on rollers or a meticulously maintained wooden track. In the real world, we ride on less-than-smooth roads requiring a certain amount of give, otherwise the bouncing of the tyre/bike/rider creates just the opposite of the claimed effect -- forward motion is impeded, not to mention traction and comfort!

Currently, the best r&d in this area (balance between speed and durability) is going into the 650b size, with a new 38mm "Pari-Moto" about to hit the scene, but I'd agree with a writer above that you might try something like the Conti 4-Season. Panaracer Pacela w/ "Tourguard" are also a nice tyre with a good balance between performance and durability. They are available up to 37mm. I haven't tried the new RibMo but it sounds interesting.

There is no good argument for anything less than 25mm and better to use minimum 28s IMO for commuting, touring and long-distance riding. And experiment with tyre pressures somewhat less than orthodoxy insists. For instance, unless you weigh 15 stone, a 28mm tyre needs no more than 70-80 psi. You might be pleasantly surprised.


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## LazyLoki (14 Dec 2009)

andrew_s said:


> Conti GP 4 Seasons come in 28mm, and are nicer than the Gatorskins (and cost more). They are reasonably puncture resistant, at least until getting near to being worn out.
> 
> 
> I think this is a "read the question" failure, unless you'd like to provide a link to where to buy 28mm Ultremo R tyres from?



Err, no, I read it, and as I imagine you are aware of Ultremo's don't come in 28mm but the OP was asking about a faster rolling tire and I was just throwing that out there as an option as taking 350g of the rim of each wheel is going to change the feel of the bike when accelerating a fair bit.


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## toby123 (14 Dec 2009)

Oh dear, I don't know what to do . Maybe I should just stick with the Armadillos after all. I'm supposed to be doing a 69 mile  in March, and I want to go at a good pace and if I do get a flat tyre, be able to 

repair it quickly.


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## potsy (14 Dec 2009)

toby123 said:


> Oh dear, I don't know what to do . Maybe I should just stick with the Armadillos after all. I'm supposed to be doing a 69 mile  in March, and I want to go at a good pace and if I do get a flat tyre, be able to
> 
> repair it quickly.


Maybe you should get some Marathon+ then you'll realise how quick and easy to fit your current tyres are 
seriously I'd go for the Conti 4 seasons if money no object,or stick with the Armadillos


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## HJ (14 Dec 2009)

Randochap said:


> The OP inquired about faster alternatives to their present tyre on a hybrid and -- correctly -- suspected there was a trade-off involved. ...



Speaking as someone who on owns one bike and uses it pretty much daily I say the fact it is a hybrid has nothing much to do with it. As a few roadies with carbon bike have found when they try to out sprint me away from the lights 



Randochap said:


> ... There is no good argument for anything less than 25mm and better to use minimum 28s IMO for commuting, touring and long-distance riding. And experiment with tyre pressures somewhat less than orthodoxy insists. For instance, *unless you weigh 15 stone, a 28mm tyre needs no more than 70-80 psi.* You might be pleasantly surprised.



Experience tells me other wise, hit a bump with the tyres at least than 80 psi and you will be hearing that pssst pssst pssst sound that you really don't want to hear. For the record I have never weighted more that 13 stone.


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## Randochap (14 Dec 2009)

HJ said:


> Speaking as someone who on owns one bike and uses it pretty much daily I say the fact it is a hybrid has nothing much to do with it. As a few roadies with carbon bike have found when they try to out sprint me away from the lights



HJ, I'm necessarily generalizing for us ordinary riders and not speaking for Hairy Hard Men of the Highlands.



> Experience tells me other wise, hit a bump with the tyres at least than 80 psi and you will be hearing that pssst pssst pssst sound that you really don't want to hear. For the record I have never weighted more that 13 stone.



Sure, I've gotten a pinch flat from hitting a pothole at speed with 700X23s @ 110psi ... and I weigh 130lbs wet. Pinch flats are less common with my 650 X 42bs @ 50psi. In fact, never had one.


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## MacB (14 Dec 2009)

is there is a difference in the propensity of a tyre to pinch puncture in relation to size alone? If you had all other things equal would a 23mm be more likely to pinch than a 32mm? I don't mean identical pressure but equalised, say 85psi in the 32 and 105 in the 23.


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## GrasB (14 Dec 2009)

toby123, which Spesh Armadillos have you got, All Condition or Nimbus? I've found the ACA one of the easiest tyres to get on, with my current rims I can fit the 700x28C ACAs with my fingers alone & only need 2 tyre levers to get the tyre off until I can get my fingers between the rim & bead. 



Randochap said:


> Currently, the best r&d in this area (balance between speed and durability) is going into the 650b size, with a new 38mm "Pari-Moto" about to hit the scene...


Exactly by whom & for what reason was this compromise decided on? This sounds like a one size fits all solution based on pre-decided outcome. While certainly it may well suit a large number of people down to the ground it certainly won't be the ideal compromise for everyone.



> There is no good argument for anything less than 25mm and better to use minimum 28s IMO for *commuting*, touring and long-distance riding.


According to *your* riding compromises. Personally I quite like the extra acceleration I get when commuting on 700x23c, or even better 650x23c, tyres compared to 700x28c. But certainly when in the saddle for more than 3 hours I prefer to ride on 700x28c tyres, it's not even the improved comfort it's the fact I don't have to ride around as many surface artifacts.



> And experiment with tyre pressures somewhat less than orthodoxy insists. For instance, unless you weigh 15 stone, a 28mm tyre needs no more than 70-80 psi. You might be pleasantly surprised.


At around 13st I've found much bellow 70-80psi is asking for pinch punctures on my 700x28Cs when riding down the backroads at speed. Also when talking about speed from 80/85psi f/r down I've found my bike gets very wallowy & vague on bumpy corners, especially smooth polished but pitted concrete surfaces.


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## Randochap (14 Dec 2009)

GrasB said:


> Exactly by whom & for what reason was this compromise decided on? This sounds like a one size fits all solution based on pre-decided outcome. While certainly it may well suit a large number of people down to the ground it certainly won't be the ideal compromise for everyone.



You are quite right that pre-decided outcomes should be regarded as suspect and so opinions based on nothing more than resistance to unfamiliar ideas should be ignored. The r&d going into 650b is being advanced by those who have extensive first-hand experience with the standard and are putting their money where their mouth is. 

Reasons? First, the virtues were clear to those who had ridden the remaining tyres available, and equally clear that those tyres -- like Schwalbe HS159 -- left something to be desired when it came to performance (though the HS159 is a brilliant, heavy duty commuting tyre). There are now a wide variety of choices. Grand Bois stepped up and among their tyres, in the opinion of almost everyone who has ridden it, the 42mm "Hetre" is the gold standard. Now, as mentioned, the Pacenti PariMoto is eagerly awaited, with the prototype made and final tweaks to the mould announced last week.



> According to *your* riding compromises. Personally I quite like the extra acceleration I get when commuting on 700x23C, or even better 650x23c, tyres compared to 700x28c. But certainly when in the saddle for more than 3 hours I prefer to ride on 700x28c tyres, it's not even the improved comfort it's the fact I don't have to ride around as many surface artifacts.



I'm sorry but, in my experience, sudden acceleration is not a characteristic I much notice on a commuter or loaded bike and even so, I can detect no difference between, say my 28s and 42s in that regard. Only when I climb on my titanium bike, stripped of all accessories and with my Campag Shamals can I detect a bit more pep off the line or on steep rollers. Again, this falls into second place on bumpy roads and carrying any weight.



> At around 13st I've found much bellow 70-80psi is asking for pinch punctures on my 700x28Cs when riding down the backroads at speed. Also when talking about speed from 80/85psi f/r down I've found my bike gets very wallowy & vague on bumpy corners, especially smooth polished but pitted concrete surfaces.



I agree, at 13st you should probably pump up your 28C tyres to 90psi. I was using 15st as a metaphor for "you big guys" and, compared to me, 13st is a big guy. I should have been more specific. But my overall point remains and you should probably try 650b (or tyres generally wider than 28C) as the ultimate answer to all the problems you describe, especially those pesky "artifacts." -- a 38-42 mm tyre, with 60psi would give the best overall "compromise," as you call it. I prefer the term "optimization."

In the end though, ride whatever you believe is getting the job done for you.


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## Randochap (15 Dec 2009)

MacB said:


> is there is a difference in the propensity of a tyre to pinch puncture in relation to size alone? If you had all other things equal would a 23mm be more likely to pinch than a 32mm? I don't mean identical pressure but equalised, say 85psi in the 32 and 105 in the 23.



High volume tyres will generally be less prone to pinch flats.


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## GrasB (15 Dec 2009)

Randochap said:


> I'm sorry but, in my experience, sudden acceleration is not a characteristic I much notice on a commuter or loaded bike and even so, I can detect no difference between, say my 28s and 42s in that regard.


I don't notice the acceleration it's self but what I do notice is that it takes an extra 1 or 2 crank revolutions to get from 20ppm (3.5mph) to 100ppm (17mph) on 39:18 with the 700x28Cs. That extra 5-10m or so is the difference of being able to slip into gaps on in-town roundabouts safely & not. I think this maybe due to the high weight of my 28C tyres & that going for lighter tyres would give me back most of that acceleration.


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## Randochap (16 Dec 2009)

GrasB said:


> I don't notice the acceleration it's self but what I do notice is that it takes an extra 1 or 2 crank revolutions to get from 20ppm (3.5mph) to 100ppm (17mph) on 39:18 with the 700x28Cs. That extra 5-10m or so is the difference of being able to slip into gaps on in-town roundabouts safely & not. I think this maybe due to the high weight of my 28C tyres & that going for lighter tyres would give me back most of that acceleration.



Are you riding fixed?

At 3.5 mph using 39/18X700, you're turning 20.5 RPM; just under 100 RPM at 17mph. There are the same #of crank revolutions, given the same diameter, though a larger tyre (diameter) would = less.

So it comes down to a matter of revolving weight and the difference is what? An ounce?


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## Mr Celine (16 Dec 2009)

Back to the original topic...

My Sirrus came with 700x28 Nimbus Armadillos. One p*ncture in 9,000 miles between the pair of them, but both had to be replaced due to the tread de-laminating.
I now use Conti Gatorskins. I don't notice any difference in speed and they aren't as puncture resistant as the armadilloes but they are far more comfortable and better in the wet. And they've gone further than the armadilloes did with no sign of the tread falling off.


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## Randochap (16 Dec 2009)

Though they win no performance prizes, the Gatorskin is indeed a good quality tyre at a good price and fairly robust. I used them (28mm) on my last 600km brevet in terrible weather, on challenging road surfaces, without issues.


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## toby123 (17 Dec 2009)

toby123 said:


> I have Spez Armadillo 700 x 28c road tyres on my hybrid, but have a suspicion that they are not the fastest tyres for this width.



Sometimes I think that maybe I am just making excuses for being unfit.


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