# En Francais s'il vous plait...



## Kirstie (28 Jun 2010)

...forgive the lack of circumflex and cidilla

Anyway, I'm off touring in France for the first time in a few weeks. I've got reasonable French, but having never cycled there don't know much in the way of French cycing vocab.

So what do I need to know? Key words and phrases please...!

e.g. 'My pump is stuck in my trouser leg'
'I ran over my camembert'
etc


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## threebikesmcginty (28 Jun 2010)

donnez-moi le gâteau
grandes bières froides svp
cette chaîne est lâche


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## Dave Davenport (28 Jun 2010)

Good old Sheldon

http://sheldonbrown.com/eng-fren.html


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## yello (28 Jun 2010)

Just shout and speak as if they're idiots. Seems to work for some of the English that live here at any rate!

Hopefully, someone can track down and post a link to useful phrases but perhaps the most useful day-to-day one would be...

pouvez-vous remplir mon bidon s'il vous plaît

...when you want your bidon refilling. Ask in any bar or tabac, they'll happily oblige, or you could even knock on a door and ask if supplies are getting desperately low. 

Generally speaking (very generally mind) many French people can understand an amount of English. I certainly wouldn't rely on it but if you're prepared to have a go in French, and are polite etc, then you might find that those English lessons they took in school get used to their fullest!

I'll post more as I think of them...

Oh, you don't 'ride' a bike. Colloquially, you 'roll' one. They'll talk of 'making the bike' (faire du velo) but once the cycling context is established (or if it is already there) it becomes 'rouler'. For instance, 'j'ai roule soixante kilometres aujourdhui' is litterally 'I rolled 60km today'.


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## Landslide (28 Jun 2010)

Cut down on costs by asking for "une pression" (draught beer) rather than "une biere" (often comes as a bottle).

(Apologies for any grammatical errors).


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## yello (28 Jun 2010)

Cheers landslide, you reminded me, a panaché (pana-shay) is a lager shandy. Hits the spot nicely on a warm day.

café crème or café au lait - in practice, the same thing. Coffee with milk. Asking for a café will get you an espresso. Just point at the boulangerie, but there's nothing on this planet that tastes like a fresh pain au chocolaté or pain au raisin


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## Arch (28 Jun 2010)

The EU has published a cycling lexicon, useful if you stray elsewhere as well as France.

http://www.eesc.europa.eu/resources/docs/bikelexicon_web72.pdf

Scroll past the dull blurb, and print from page 15.

My main tip would be not to get too hung up on grammar and so on. Make the effort, and have some basic vocab, and you can get by - if you need a bottle filled, then producing it and asking "C'est possible...? (poss-eeb-ler) l'eau s'il vous plait?" will get the message across. My friends who live there said that too many people get hung up on whether it should le or la, and consequently get tongue tied. Just have a stab, and there are few occasions when you'll be misunderstood (I gather one of them is the difference between Le Tour (as in 'de France') and La Tour (as in 'de Eiffel'))

I've been three times cycling now, and the first couple of times I was very much relying on my friends to do the talking - this time, I felt quite a bit more confident, although I had little more in the way of vocab.

Panache is definitely a good choice for a hot day, as is Orangina, which always tastes much better in France.

We found a phrase lacking from any book - "Excuse me sir, but my friend's sock has fallen from our balcony to the balcony of Room 20, is it possible to open the room so that we can get it?"

I could just about have managed it, but I'd had a couple of beers and was laughing too much to say it in English, let alone French...


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## yello (28 Jun 2010)

French bread MUST be eaten fresh. Don't buy it in the morning for the afternoon/evening... or lunch for that matter. It's pretty much stale after a few hours. You could beat people to death with it after 8 hours. Fret not though, most (all?) boulangeries do several bakes a day. 

Don't rely on anything being open between midday and 2pm. And not at all in July! Except perhaps the hairdressers.

Ah, hang on, it's phrases you want...


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## aramaic (28 Jun 2010)

http://www.single-serving.com/French/French_Phrases-A4.pdf


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## Arch (28 Jun 2010)

Good tip about stuff being shut at lunchtime - even big supermarkets. Shop for lunch stuff like cheese, meat and fruit (assuming you're picnicing) good and early (although the bread is best fresh - we tended to buy the loaf shaped stuff sliced (pain de campagne I think) rather than the baguettes, and it was fine after a couple of hours.)

Also, cafes/bars won't necessarily have food, but they seem to be fine with you eating pastries you've bought elsewhere.


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## Speicher (28 Jun 2010)

On this subject Yello, you might add your tuppence worth. 

I have often found that I can think what I need to say in French, but get half way through a sentence and still hesitate over one word. This means not finishing the sentence, but the listener may have grasped my meaning. But if I do not get to the end, I may not get around to adding "s'il vous plait". So to get round this omission or mistake,  I got into the habit of starting the sentence with "please". Thus, if I made a mistake, or did not finish the sentence, because they finished it for me, at least I had started off on a polite note. 

It may sound odd to a French person, but do you think that its "oddness" is compensated for by its politeness?


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## Arch (28 Jun 2010)

I would think so. It would sound odd in English too, but understandable.

I tend to start with s'il vous plait too, while I work out the rest of it...


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## andym (28 Jun 2010)

I’m pretty fluent in french but the last time I was in France
 I had to try to explain that I needed the mechanic to trim
the cable outer because I hadn’t put it into the ferrule properly.
 Not surprisingly I had to fall back on pointing and saying

J’ai un problème avec ceçi ... 

...always a useful fallback.

If you need to buy an inner tube it’s a 'chambre à aire'.

J’ai crevé is “I’ve got a puncture” not to be confused with je suis crevé(e) - “I’m knackered”.

[edit: I don't know why the margins went haywire here!]


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## Muddyfox (28 Jun 2010)

Avez Vous a cuppa .. i learnt that from the tea adverts with the monkeys and if i remember rightly they were also cycling in france ?

Simon


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## yello (28 Jun 2010)

It may sound foreign or odd but I doubt there'd be a problem. But in honesty, I have no idea. When I speak French, I really have no feeling for what I'm saying. Likewise when I hear it, I don't intuitively respond. I'm not fluent by any stretch of the imagination and, to be honest, I really speak English with French words (give or take).

My French teacher told us not to worry about mistakes and the like as most French speakers make them too! And I mean so-called basic mistakes; getting the gender wrong (le/la) or getting verb conjugations wrong (I is, I telled him, etc etc etc). Or not knowing the correct verb or it's conjugation so using 'faire' for just about everything (useful verb is 'faire', it means to make or do but pretty much any noun can be 'faire'd! Don't know the conjugations for the verb 'to clean'? then simply 'faire' the adjective/noun, e.g. 'I clean the car' = 'I make clean the car' . ). 

Sure, some folk speak an educated and, some would say, flawless French but I get the impression that your average French person is just as likely to butcher the rules as any foreigner might... just perhaps more confidently!


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## Arch (28 Jun 2010)

yello said:


> My French teacher told us not to worry about mistakes and the like as most French speakers make them too! And I mean so-called basic mistakes; getting the gender wrong (le/la) or getting verb conjugations wrong (I is, I telled him, etc etc etc). Or not knowing the correct verb or it's conjugation so using 'faire' for just about everything (useful verb is 'faire', it means to make or do but pretty much any noun can be 'faire'd! Don't know the conjugations for the verb 'to clean'? then simply 'faire' the adjective/noun, e.g. 'I clean the car' = 'I make clean the car' . ).
> 
> Sure, some folk speak an educated and, some would say, flawless French but I get the impression that your average French person is just as likely to butcher the rules as any foreigner might... just perhaps more confidently!



Much like many/most English people with English!

I was pleased that this time I understood a lot of what people said to us - some of them were B and B owners and waiting staff presumably used to speaking clearly to foreigners, but I even managed a few stilted conversations with people in the street. Mostly, I listened to what my friends were saying to people, and borrowed phrases.


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## John the Monkey (28 Jun 2010)

Kirstie, have you seen this thread?


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## srw (28 Jun 2010)

Now why didn't I think of asking here? A vocab was something I never got around to finding a month ago. As it happened we didn't need one - the only major (ish) mechanical problem we had was sorted by diverting to go through the outskirts of La Rochelle, via Decathlon, rather than all the way around the city.

On the other hand, "ou est la switch pour ce vent saignant" might have been useful - if we'd known who to ask.


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## srw (28 Jun 2010)

Oh, and _le complet_ or _le cereale_ not only provides you with a better carbo-boost than _le tradition_ or _le campagne_, it also lasts a lot better, and tastes much better than the equivalent over here to boot. To our surprise it was available all over the country too. We had our fill of "normal" French bread in the standard hotel/B&B breakfast, so we didn't exactly miss out.


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## lanternerouge (28 Jun 2010)

Kirstie, prof de français here! If you need any specific voc just ask. 

I would add to what's been posted above - just try, and smile! If you're not doing it for an exam there's no right and wrong really - language is communication after all. Sometimes the French can be snotty about their language but if you TRY it really makes a difference.

Also a useful word - un truc - a thing/thingy!


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## andym (28 Jun 2010)

Oh I forgot:

"(ne) marche pas" - doesn't work


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## yello (28 Jun 2010)

lanternerouge said:


> Sometimes the French can be snotty about their language but if you TRY it really makes a difference.



I've never experienced the snottiness, though I've heard of it. The 2nd part is SO true though even if it sounds like a cliché. I have this theory that because many French have spent years learning English (or another language) that they know how damned hard it is... and English surrounds them and is gradually creeping into their own language... and perhaps there is an ever-so-slight feeling that they ought to be able to speak it. I dunno, maybe that's cobblers but I am often genuinely surprised by how much of an effort people make to understand, and help, me.

Tyres are pneus and the 'p' is sounded - p'nuh. Inner tubes are sometimes gonflables... or something like that, that's the adjective... more normally, as already stated, chambre à air. Gonfler is to pump up..

Arch is right about listening. If you relax and don't panic, you can normally get the gist of what's being said. English and French can be similar.


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## yello (28 Jun 2010)

As a rule, the last letter is not pronounced (it is in 'truc' though!) so 'tout droit' (straight ahead) is 'too dwa'. Likewise, don't sound the 's' on a plural. Obvious exception is any accented letter, usually e, as in café. Or panaché. Or marché (mar-shay) as opposed to marche (marsh).


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## lanternerouge (29 Jun 2010)

yello said:


> I've never experienced the snottiness, though I've heard of it.



I have unfortunately, quite a few times - worst is when you clearly speak much better French than they do English, but they reply in English anyway _just to show you they know you're not French_...

Don't get the wrong idea though, I love la France! Whereabouts are you Yello?


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## Landslide (29 Jun 2010)

If you're worried about understanding replies when wayfinding, you may wish to adopt a technique developed by a friend of my dad...

Rather than risk a stream of _"allez tout droit, cinquieme a gauche..."_ he would merely point in what he thought ws the correct direction and ask:
_"La gare, c'est ici? *Oui ou non.*"_ Repeat until you reach your destination!


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## Fnaar (29 Jun 2010)

Landslide said:


> _"La gare, c'est ici? *Oui ou non.*"_ Repeat until you reach your destination!



Oui, monsieur. Regardez le bloody great train avec le chuffing noise.


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## XmisterIS (29 Jun 2010)

Es tut mir leid, aber spreche ich fast kein Franzoesisch!


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## threebikesmcginty (29 Jun 2010)

The big problem with all this is that you can grasp some useful phrases but if it involves a question it's understanding the answer that's the tricky bit. 

It's such a wonderful country you'll struggle to have anything other than a great time.

Bon voyage et bonne chance!


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## cedfromfrance (29 Jun 2010)

Kirstie said:


> ...forgive the lack of circumflex and cidilla
> 
> Anyway, I'm off touring in France for the first time in a few weeks. I've got reasonable French, but having never cycled there don't know much in the way of French cycing vocab.
> 
> ...



Don't bother trying to speak good French Kirsty, some poor french with a strong British accent will open doors everywhere you'll go !! If I had to pick some key sentences when touring in France, this would be: "Y a-til un café dans le coin ?" or "Je cherche la direction du bar" ...  Where about are you touring ? Bonnes vacances et bon Tour !


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## battered (29 Jun 2010)

As others have said, just get stuck in. A phrase book is useful to establish a script, but as others have said as soon as the other person deviates from the script you are stuck. I wouldn't worry about vocabulary and grammar, "bidon" is indeed the right word for water bottle, but "gourde" is understood as indeed is "bouteille". It al works. Let's be honest, if you ran a cafe and a cyclist came in waving a bottle and asked for "water for my jar" you wouldn't laugh him out of the shop.

S'il vous plait can indeed go at the start of a sentence and is not at all odd. It's generally used to attract a waiter's attention, as we might say "excuse me". So if you stop someone in the street with "SVP" it can be viewed as shorthand for "excuse me please" and is acceptable. Bonjour is actually better usage though, and buys you a second to think of what to say while they are replying "bonjour m'sieur/madame." You can also, with thought, buy time with your sentence structure, eg:
"bonjour" (time, think)
"je cherche, SVP..." (I'm looking for, please...) (more time)
"Un cafe/le supermarche/le village de..." (more time while you produce the map) and so it goes on. Bear in mind they don't want you to fail.

When you get proficient you can learn such useful phrases as "Salaud! Putain de Dieu, t'es aveugle ou quoi? T'as trouve ton permis ou, dans une pochette-surprise?" (Trad: "B*stard! F*ing Christ, are you blind or what? Where'd you get your licence, a lucky bag?")

This and other juicy phrases are not advisable for novices though, you need to have the skills to talk your way *out* of trouble before you dump yourself in it.


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## Aperitif (29 Jun 2010)

'con' was helpful at times when I rolled around the Herault...

I can only offer that cemeteries have cold water taps and are ideal stopping points to refill.


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## cedfromfrance (29 Jun 2010)

Aperitif said:


> 'con' was helpful at times when I rolled around the Herault...
> 
> I can only offer that cemeteries have cold water taps and are ideal stopping points to refill.



Well said Aperitif !!!  This is true that the sure spot to get water always is the ... Cemeteries ...


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## Bromptonaut (29 Jun 2010)

Bill, eg on a campsite, is facture. Not to be confused as I did with facteur (postman). Could not uderstand why an answer expected in Euro's was 'peut etre a midi' followed by a gallic shrug. 

Le Prop @ camping la grande cascade in Mont Dore nearly pissed himself laughing!!!!!

Incidentally, if you're headed for the Auvergene that site is highly recommended over the two in town. A bit of a ride up the Col de Croix de Robert but lush grass in clear air far prefereable to the fumes and gravel in the valley bottom.


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## Dave Davenport (29 Jun 2010)

battered said:


> As others have said, just get stuck in. A phrase book is useful to establish a script, but as others have said as soon as the other person deviates from the script you are stuck. I wouldn't worry about vocabulary and grammar, "bidon" is indeed the right word for water bottle, but "gourde" is understood as indeed is "bouteille". It al works. Let's be honest, if you ran a cafe and a cyclist came in waving a bottle and asked for "water for my jar" you wouldn't laugh him out of the shop.
> 
> S'il vous plait can indeed go at the start of a sentence and is not at all odd. It's generally used to attract a waiter's attention, as we might say "excuse me". So if you stop someone in the street with "SVP" it can be viewed as shorthand for "excuse me please" and is acceptable. Bonjour is actually better usage though, and buys you a second to think of what to say while they are replying "bonjour m'sieur/madame." You can also, with thought, buy time with your sentence structure, eg:
> "bonjour" (time, think)
> ...



The only time I've had any trouble (i.e close pass) with drivers in France they've had GB stickers on the back of the car. Actually, I tell a lie, there was a bus driver coming into Nice airport last year who cut us up badly, he was stopped 200m later and I think I got my message across ok by pulling up next to his window and employing the international gesture for w*nker even if he did just stare straight ahead pretending I wasn't there.


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## threebikesmcginty (29 Jun 2010)

Aperitif said:


> I can only offer that cemeteries have cold water taps and are ideal stopping points to refill.



Ou est le cimetiere svp?

Ils est dans le centre mort


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## Aperitif (29 Jun 2010)

threebikesmcginty said:


> Ou est le cimetiere svp?
> 
> Ils est dans le centre mort



touché


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## threebikesmcginty (29 Jun 2010)

Je obtenez mon manteau


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## HelenD123 (29 Jun 2010)

Damn, I've just left French-speaking territory. This thread would have been useful. I agree that it's good just to relax and try rather than get hung up on knowing every word. I managed to have a complete conversation in French with an old guy in a fascinating bike shop in Quebec. I needed a small part for my bar bag bracket that had broken and just said I needed something 'comme ca' and pointed to the other one which was still intact. Have a great trip Kirstie.


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## yello (29 Jun 2010)

Cheers battered, some useful new words for me there!

Re facture (invoice) and facteur (postman), there in lies the problems of those darn French vowel sounds. So close, to my ear anyway, that I find it near on impossible to sound the difference.

Others I have problems with are chaussure (shoe) and chasseur (hunter), and mutant (mutant) and mouton (sheep). I really don't want to be going into a shoe shop and asking for a nice, comfortable pair of hunters.


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## Arch (29 Jun 2010)

yello said:


> Others I have problems with are chaussure (shoe) and chasseur (hunter), and mutant (mutant) and mouton (sheep). I really don't want to be going into a shoe shop and asking for a nice, comfortable pair of hunters.



You certainly don't want to walk away from the livestock market with a mutant either!

We just had the one time when we were collectively foxed. Our waiter came and recited the dessert list, and several people opted for the rice pudding (riz au lait). He came back a moment later, and said something about the riz au lait - the word chef was in there, and kilogram, and chaud ou froid - so we though he might be asking if we wanted it warm, but what about the kilogram thing? Was he saying there weren't enough portions? We looked at each other blankly, and were just about to ask him to repeat slowly, when he said "d'accord!" (ok!) and went! We never did know what he'd asked us - but the pudding came warm.

Another thing my friend recommended was to say "Doucement, svp" if someone talks too fast for you - it means 'gently, please' and might be more helpful than just getting them to repeat slowly - they might rephrase for you.


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## Speicher (29 Jun 2010)

My greatest faux pas in France was asking for "le Menu", when I meant "la Carte". 

Coinnoisseurs will know that Le Menu is the Meal of the Day, which could be eel soup, eel salad and creme brule, or a similar combination. (Not on my list of favourites).

The drinks arrived, but no sign of the cardboard list of options food wise. Cue me realising my mistake, and shortly afterwards the Chef appeared, looking seriously upset. 

Fortunately I have over the years learnt various ways of apologising in French.


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## Alun (29 Jun 2010)

Chateauneuf du Pape, Rodders !!


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## psmiffy (30 Jun 2010)

Something I really wish is that i had learnt some French before I became hard of hearing - but with my minimal few basic phrases I have always got by. Never had the "snobby" French reaction (does it really exist any more)

I have cycled in many countries where I never really sussed out even what good morning is - but being on a bike and being an Englishmam (I find it amazing that still counts for something or maybe it is being a cyclist) I have been able to communicate who I am, where I am going and what I need


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## Fnaar (30 Jun 2010)

J'ai perdu la plume de ma tante.  C'etait sur le table. Et le freakin' chat mange le poulet!


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## rh100 (30 Jun 2010)

I was told to ask for your steak cooked as 'incendre' (burnt), worked for me, came out about what I would class as medium here.

edit: I think the correct term would be tres bien cuit - is this correct?


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## threebikesmcginty (30 Jun 2010)

rh100 said:


> I was told to ask for your steak cooked as 'incendre' (burnt), worked for me, came out about what I would class as medium here.



Wonder what the French translation of the Texas method is for rare steak?

"Knock its horns off, wipe its ass and chuck it on the plate"


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## Aperitif (30 Jun 2010)

Uncle Mort said:


> _Bleugh!  _ will get you that.



A quick fix Mort 

Assiette des legumes SVP


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## Bromptonaut (30 Jun 2010)

threebikesmcginty said:


> Wonder what the French translation of the Texas method is for rare steak?
> 
> "Knock its horns off, wipe its ass and chuck it on the plate"



En bleu??


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## Chrisc (30 Jun 2010)

yello said:


> It may sound foreign or odd but I doubt there'd be a problem. But in honesty, I have no idea. When I speak French, I really have no feeling for what I'm saying. Likewise when I hear it, I don't intuitively respond. I'm not fluent by any stretch of the imagination and, to be honest, I really speak English with French words (give or take).
> 
> My French teacher told us not to worry about mistakes and the like as most French speakers make them too! And I mean so-called basic mistakes; getting the gender wrong (le/la) or getting verb conjugations wrong (I is, I telled him, etc etc etc). Or not knowing the correct verb or it's conjugation so using 'faire' for just about everything (useful verb is 'faire', it means to make or do but pretty much any noun can be 'faire'd! Don't know the conjugations for the verb 'to clean'? then simply 'faire' the adjective/noun, e.g. 'I clean the car' = 'I make clean the car' . ).
> 
> Sure, some folk speak an educated and, some would say, flawless French but I get the impression that your average French person is just as likely to butcher the rules as any foreigner might... just perhaps more confidently!




Nowhere near fluent, I sort of make it up in my head as I go along. God knows what it sounds like to the French but I usually get what I'm after. Even when I had no idea what swimming trunks were called and resorted to miming swimming in the shop... they laughed...but I got some.

After many holidays over there I finally started to hear the French langauge without translating it into English, that's when it clicked.


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## jay clock (1 Jul 2010)

I am bilingual so it is not a problem. But my advice for any country where you only have a basic kwnowledge is a big smile and crack on. Pointing and smiling helps enormously. The problems come when you speak enough to open a conversation but have no idea what the reply is. And then when you get quite fluent, the French in particular will start to correct you. If you are really bad they won't!

Bonne route!


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## Crankarm (1 Jul 2010)

Je parle Francais comme une vache d'Espagne .

Bonne vacance Kirsty.


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## Globalti (1 Jul 2010)

I've lived and worked in France for three years and I only recently realised that the French actually find an English accent charming in the same way that we find a French accent charming. Bizarre really because I hate to hear French being mangled.

As a chap I find French women easy to deal with, you just smile nicely, turn on the charm and throw in a few deliberate anglicisms; they can't resist it.


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## Hover Fly (1 Jul 2010)

Globalti said:


> I've lived and worked in France for three years and I only recently realised that the French actually find an English accent charming in the same way that we find a French accent charming...



However, if a French person doesn't understand English very well they think an USAnian sounds like a duck quacking. Hence the two young ladies who show visitors round Ch.HF, or flog 'em wine call Yanks "Donalds".


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## Kirstie (1 Jul 2010)

Thanks everyone! 
<smug>
I've never started a thread that ran for six pages 
</smug>


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## andym (2 Jul 2010)

Oh and a useful phrase for the touring cyclist with places to go:

"est-ce que on peut le faire aujordhui/ce matin/(if you're feeling really bold)pendant que j'attende?" - can you do it today/this morning/ while I wait?


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## PpPete (2 Jul 2010)

Crankarm said:


> Je parle Francais comme une vache d'Espagne .
> 
> Bonne vacance Kirsty.




No No NO Crankarm do keep up in class PLEASE

It's 
_Je parle Francais comme une vache Espagnol
_ 
You must use the adjectival form.



Seriously though, Globalti has it right. 
I speak it like a native, my OH has a subtle English accent. We started a business over there years ago. OH had elderly French Bank manager eating out of her hand.

As a girl, the chaps will be falling over themselves as soon as you say _Excusez-moi, est-ce que vous pouvez m'aider avec ceci_ .. (then pointing to the offending part of bike/anatomy/or whatever)


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## srw (3 Jul 2010)

porkypete said:


> No No NO Crankarm do keep up in class PLEASE
> 
> It's
> _Je parle Francais comme une vache Espagnol
> ...


Isn't it _Espagnole_ - feminine form?


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## Tim Bennet. (3 Jul 2010)

It is . . but with a small 'e'.


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## vernon (3 Jul 2010)

pédants


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## Crankarm (4 Jul 2010)

porkypete said:


> No No NO Crankarm do keep up in class PLEASE
> 
> It's
> _Je parle Francais comme une vache Espagnol_
> ...



Merde!

I intially I wrote like what you did as I learned it from a French gf decades ago but can't quite remember although I would definitely say Spain in it's -ol French form. Apparently a bit of gentle leg pullling by the French of their Spanish neighbours .


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## Aperitif (4 Jul 2010)

https://www.cyclechat.net/

Funny that should feature 'so much' in CycleChat parlance...


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## Crankarm (4 Jul 2010)

Aperitif said:


> https://www.cyclechat.net/
> 
> Funny that should feature 'so much' in CycleChat parlance...



Chose curieuse, je pensait le meme.

Can I recommend Stephen Clarke's two books on France which I have both read twice? Hilarious and spot on. He has a new book out which I've not perused yet which is undoubtedly very funny like his previous.

A Year in the Merde
Merde Actually


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## Tony (5 Jul 2010)

Tim Bennet. said:


> It is . . but with a small 'e'.


Originally "Basque espagnol"

And, as a French translator with (I am told) a strong Midi accent...it's the subjunctive, doncher know


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## yello (5 Jul 2010)

Tony said:


> it's the subjunctive, doncher know



Sorry, what is?


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## jay clock (5 Jul 2010)

<switch on pedantry alert>
Je parle Francais comme une vache d'Espagne should be "je parle français comme une vache espagnole". Both the français and the espagnole need lower case. Plus of course the missing cedilla needed attention!
<switch off pedantry alert>


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## battered (5 Jul 2010)

Furthern pedantry _concernant les vaches, espagnoles ou pas_

The phrase currently in use is actually written (no accents, can't get them on this UK keyboard) "Je parle francais comme une vache l'espagnol" meaning "I speak French like a cow speaks Spanish".

Interesting point re "le Basque espagnol"


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## battered (5 Jul 2010)

Tony said:


> Originally "Basque espagnol"
> 
> And, as a French translator with (I am told) a strong Midi accent...it's the subjunctive, doncher know



Further linguistic pedantry:

Comment ca, c'est le subjonctif?

It's not the subjunctive, it's the present. There is no subjunctive clause, it's a simple statement in the present tense.


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## Tony (6 Jul 2010)

battered said:


> Further linguistic pedantry:
> 
> Comment ca, c'est le subjonctif?
> 
> It's not the subjunctive, it's the present. There is no subjunctive clause, it's a simple statement in the present tense.


Nope, it's a phrase with an element of doubt, so it should use the subjunctive, especially when you are using the impersonal pronoun. Think of it as being "Could I please..." instead of "Can I...."
If you want to ask in present tense, better to say "puis-je"

And the subjunctive IS the present. It's just not the present indicative....


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## Fnaar (6 Jul 2010)

Tony said:


> Originally "Basque espagnol"



... and why exactly would Spanish ladies' nether garments be attempting to speak French?


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## yello (6 Jul 2010)

Tony said:


> Nope, it's a phrase with an element of doubt



Interesting. I don't read it that way. 

I'm not a translator but I am aware, even with my limited French, that it is a fiendishly difficult job so I bow to your knowledge and experience here. What do you find conditional in the statement?

Just to be sure I'm talking of the same thing;

I speak French like a Spanish cow.
Je parle français comme un vache espagnole.


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## battered (6 Jul 2010)

Tony said:


> Nope, it's a phrase with an element of doubt, so it should use the subjunctive, especially when you are using the impersonal pronoun. Think of it as being "Could I please..." instead of "Can I...."
> If you want to ask in present tense, better to say "puis-je"


I don't think we are talking about the same sentence.
The sentence we're now debating is "je parle francais comme une vache espagnole" ( or vache l'espagnol) which is a straightforward statement with no doubt whatsoever. 



> And the subjunctive IS the present. It's just not the present indicative....


Correct, but now we really *are* splitting hairs. Most people use "present" as shorthand for pres. indic. and "subjunctive" for "present subjunctive". 

This is the pres. sub. as opposed to the "subjonctif du passe" which no bugger understands, I've never seen or heard outside a grammar book, and seems only to be used to torture secondary school pupils in France. Nobody uses it in conversation after all, eg "T'as pas pu venir hier?" "Non, il fallait que je...euh...aille voir ma mere" etc.


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## battered (6 Jul 2010)

yello said:


> Just to be sure I'm talking of the same thing;
> 
> I speak French like a Spanish cow.
> Je parle français comme un vache espagnole.



*Une* vache espagnole.

Un homme espagnol
Une femme espagnole

Voila.


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## dodgy (6 Jul 2010)

This thread was quite good when it started.


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## Tony (6 Jul 2010)

The phrase I am thinking of was the one where you were asking "is it possible that one could [subjunctive] ...etc" so the verb would be "puisse". The French use the pres. subj. a LOT, but as in English the verb forms are often identical to the imperfect, especially in the plural, so you don't notice. Often, they use constructions designed to avoid the subj., such as "il faut faire" as opposed to "il faut qu'on fasse"
The Basque bit is a direct reference to the uniquely odd Basque language, and is a drift from "vasque espagnol" to "vache espagnole" It is similar to another politically incorrect French phrase, now unfashionable, "saoul comme un polonais"


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## Crankarm (6 Jul 2010)

Look what I started !


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## yello (6 Jul 2010)

So we were talking of different sentences! That explains everything!


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## Speicher (7 Jul 2010)

yello said:


> So we were talking of different sentences! That explains everything!



That was the conclusion I reached in the very early hours of this morning. Well it was warm, and I wasn't sleepy. 

You could, in English, either say

I speak French like a cow speaks Spanish. (using the present tense)

or 

I speak French like a cow would* speak Spanish (the *would* is the subjunctif)

So using Spanish (language), in the second example, as an object instead of an adjective (ie not a Spanish Cow) it is l'espagnol. 

I would (?) add that I try to avoid thinking in English and then translating into French, and just use the French words that come to mind.

I found that spending two weeks in France, speaking English only very rarely, meant that my spoken French improved no end. This was aided considerably by the lady who was on holiday with me, who normally worked a Tourist guide in Reims. She spoke French slowly and clearly, and was happy to correct my French conversation as we explored the French countryside near Lyon on a walking holiday. Yes, we did explore the subjunctive in conversation, the more normal variations, not ever so obscure ones.

Strangely there was another English lady on the party. She was a teacher of French (in England), but did not want to speak French at all. She turned down the opportunity to act as translator for the evening some English people challenged the French to a game of Trivial Pursuits. So I had that honour.


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## Landslide (7 Jul 2010)




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## Tony (7 Jul 2010)

Landslide said:


>



One tip: apart from Parisians, when a Frenchy corrects your French, what they are saying is not "Ha! Silly Eenglis fromage oose muzza smelt of elderberries" they are saying "thank you for the courtesy you show in trying, let me repay that by helping you speak it better"


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## Crankarm (7 Jul 2010)

Jehovah!


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## battered (8 Jul 2010)

Stop! You're only making it worse for yourself!

I'm not going to pursue the linguistic deliberations, there are language fora for that, I'd say using "would speak Spanish" puts you into the conditional but that's splitting hairs and a debate for elsewhere as I said. In any case if you're being clever as others have said you can avoid the complex forms.

It's certainly true that when people correct you it's generally to help, especially if you've just said something embarrassing.

My finest hour was saying to a work colleague "yes, I've got a red sports car. It's with my parents but when I bring it here I'll call round one weekend and we can go out.

_je passerai chez toi et on sort _. Easy.

Sadly though I was still at the stage of reading a mental autocue when speaking so when I saw the word "sort" I pronounced it as the English word "sort". Next news was a big pair of round, blinking eyes and a mouth doing goldfish impressions opposite. Silence across the canteen. What she'd heard was _"je passerai chez toi et on saut"_ meaning "I'll come round to yours and we'll have a jump." Yes, it does mean the same in French as in English.


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## Crankarm (8 Jul 2010)

battered said:


> Stop! You're only making it worse for yourself!
> 
> I'm not going to pursue the linguistic deliberations, there are language fora for that, I'd say using "would speak Spanish" puts you into the conditional but that's splitting hairs and a debate for elsewhere as I said. In any case if you're being clever as others have said you can avoid the complex forms.
> 
> ...



Did you and she have a jump ?


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## battered (8 Jul 2010)

Sadly no, she preferred another colleague, called Nicolas. We did have a ride in the car though, and dinner together on a good few occasions, so all was well.


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## Tony (8 Jul 2010)

battered said:


> Stop! You're only making it worse for yourself!
> 
> I'm not going to pursue the linguistic deliberations, there are language fora for that, I'd say using "would speak Spanish" puts you into the conditional but that's splitting hairs and a debate for elsewhere as I said. In any case if you're being clever as others have said you can avoid the complex forms.
> 
> ...


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