# Bad knees & SPD's



## BigCol (1 Jan 2011)

Hello

I have been cycling now for a couple of years and absolutely love it. While I have been mostly doing shorter off-road XC riding, I have done a couple of road based longer rides for charity.

On my last ride (Sunderland to Edinburgh - Coast & Castles), I started getting a pain in my left knee about half way through. Our support driver kindly went and got me a tubular knee support bandage which helped a little but the pain started in my right knee after about another 40 miles. The last 60 miles of the ride was absolute agony and if it wasn't for charity, I think I would have bailed as every pedal rotation was extremely painful.

I am riding a full-sus mountain bike with SPD's and I have read that if SPD are incorrectly set up, it can cause bad knees.

So......my question is, how do you adjust SPD's to relieve knee strain? The only way I can see that they are adjustable is by moving the cleats closer to the toe but would this make a difference? I am quite tall (just over 6'3") on a Large size bike with the seat set very high up so that I am getting a long leg stretch. I have previously put any knee quibbles down to being overweight but while I am still not at an ideal weight, I have gone from 22.5 stone to just under 17 so I am hoping that it isn't weight related.

I have been considering getting a road bike so that I am not using my MTB for long rides, triathlons, etc but I don't want to shell out for a new bike if anything over 50 miles is going to cause problems with my knees.

Thanks for your help with this - it's much appreciated.

Col.


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## Blue (1 Jan 2011)

Cycling is non weight bearing so that probably isn't the issue.

The first thing to do with any cleats is to mimic your foot position. Sit on a table or the like and let your feet dangle freely. Do both feet point ahead, or do they point away from each other, or does one point ahead with the other pointing at an angle. When you note your natural position the idea is to set the cleats at the position required to replicate this. Whether your cleats don't, do, have float that may also be an issue.

You like a high seat, but is it too high? If you rock in the seat when powering along the seat may be too high as you should have a smooth action.

What sort of angle is created when your knee bends during the pedal stroke. With the pedals set at 3:15 you should be able to drop a plumb line from the front of the front knee through the line of the pedal spindle. You may need to adjust both saddle and cleat fore/aft here.

Moving the cleats from side to side will alter the 'Q' factor, or distance between you feet, and is, indeed, another area that may need attention.

It can take a lot of tinkering to get it right. Only change one thing at a time to see how each change goes. Beware of building the mileage too quickly - your knees take time to adapt.

Gook luck


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## accountantpete (1 Jan 2011)

Before you try changing things I'd consider your leg position when cycling. Sometimes with fatigue your legs can wander off their normal routine and widen away from the top tube. This puts pressure on the outside of the knee.

Have a go at keeping your knees pumping as close to the top tube as is comfortable and see how that goes.


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## ColinJ (1 Jan 2011)

I made my knees hurt by setting my SPD cleats slightly out when I bought a new pair of shoes. My natural pedalling style is heels-in and I'd set the cleats to make my feet parallel to each other. 

The most likely thing is that you had the angle of them wrong so your feet were being pulled slightly out of their natural allignment, which then put a strain on your knees. The cleats don't have to be far out to cause problems.

You should only be able to feel the spring tension on the pedals when you are turning your feet to unclip. If you can feel that tension when pedalling, it means that the cleat angle needs to be adjusted. (You can rotate the cleats slightly as well as move them back and forth.)


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## BigCol (1 Jan 2011)

Thanks all for your responses - I am going out for a ride on Monday so I will check my natural position when sat on a table and see what it looks like on the bike. I had not considered my seat being too high but I will check this out also.

I'm not sure whether there is any strain on the pedals during normal riding but I will check this out on Monday.


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## MacB (1 Jan 2011)

I'd start with bike setup first, make sure that saddle height and setback suit you and then work forward from there re reach to the bars. Once you've done that then you can look at pedals etc, but don't forget that fatigue is a factor. You'll read plenty of reports of saddles that are comfy for 60 miles then get painful and various other aches and pains that only kick in after a certain distance. Sheldon Browns site has a good article around this, highlighting how your posture can slump, as you tire, thus altering pressure points and creating pain. My one major incident around knee pain was due to saddle position(new saddle on my first long ride) and some kindly souls on here helped me get it right. But the pain went away pretty quickly and didn't leave any lasting problems. 

On the pedal front, I go with flats and I don't suffer from knee problems, nor do I suffer from foot slippage or an inability to climb or keep pace on rides I go on. I did try SPDs and didn't like them but I seem to be in a minority, at least amongst 'serious' cyclists. On longer rides(especially over about 60 miles) I have noticed that I will vary my foot position. Sometimes just for a change but I do tend to cycle more towards the centre of my foot when climbing seated. Out of the saddle, or giving it some welly, I'll have my foot further back.

However should note, I cycle for utility, commuting and fun, if I ever have the urge to drop 5 stone and try to compete then I'd have to seriously consider SPDs, or similar.


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## Chrisc (1 Jan 2011)

Check this out to see where to make adjustments based on the location of the pain.

Knee trouble


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## Fiona N (3 Jan 2011)

Are you sure that the pain wasn't just from upping your distance too much too suddenly? 

You say you mostly do short off-road stuff then go in for a couple of 100+ mile road rides - really, really not a good idea.

When you get tired, technique goes to pot so once you exceed your 'trained limit' all the muscles which provide stability, particularly for knees, shoulders and back, no longer cope with the demands placed on them so even though your strength muscles can keep you cycling, you lose previous 'good form' and position and experience pain.


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## BigCol (3 Jan 2011)

Fiona N said:


> Are you sure that the pain wasn't just from upping your distance too much too suddenly?



Not sure - I did train for the long ride by cycling to work for several months over the summer - 30 mile hilly round trip per day.

I didn't do many training sessions which were more than 50 miles which may be where I went wrong (we were doing 60 miles/day on the charity ride).

The irony is that I did the Coast to coast the year before which was much more hilly and I was less fit but I didn't have issues with my knees. The biggest difference I can think of was that I did it on different bikes - a hardtail on the first ride and a full sus on the second.

@Chrisc - thanks for the link, I'll give the article a good read through.


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## Globalti (3 Jan 2011)

Fiona N said:


> Are you sure that the pain wasn't just from upping your distance too much too suddenly?
> 
> You say you mostly do short off-road stuff then go in for a couple of 100+ mile road rides - really, really not a good idea.
> 
> When you get tired, technique goes to pot so once you exceed your 'trained limit' all the muscles which provide stability, particularly for knees, shoulders and back, no longer cope with the demands placed on them so even though your strength muscles can keep you cycling, you lose previous 'good form' and position and experience pain.



Listen to her; she knows her onions when it comes to big mileages!

My own suggestion: get that road bike; you will kick yourself for having persisted with the MTB for so long. You travel more than twice the speed and distance for the same effort, even more if you were using knobbly tyres on the MTB.

Edit: Eek! I've just twigged that you were riding a full-suspension bike! What additional stresses do you think the up and down bouncing was putting on your knees?


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## montage (4 Jan 2011)

Previous knee quibbles?
Now you have extreme agony in the knees? Get it checked out already....there may well be a more complex situation to be resolved than adjusting the position


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## henshaw11 (6 Jan 2011)

Mebbe worth mentioning - as you lift your leg your foot rotates out slightly - so what appears to have just enough cleat float at the bottom of the pedal stroke might not, nearer the top - could be subtle enough to make a difference.

Don't think anyone's mentioned 'em - but for anyone whose gait is *very* toe out so that their heels would clip the cranks, there are pedal extenders which sit between cranks and pedal spindle, to push the pedals further out - I think SJS stock them.

If it is a float problem, I'd be surprised if you couldn't fix it with SPDs, but IIRC Times or eggbeaters have a bit more float which seems to suit some people better


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## Zoiders (10 Jan 2011)

I have often heard the "x pedal causes bad knees" story.

If you take any test group of people some will have knee problems and bet the incidence is the same with non cyclists as it is with cyclist using the SPD system.

You weighed 23 stone - losing weight does not turn back the clock and un-do the damage you did when you were that weight, 17 stone is still pretty hefty for 6'3" anyway, also take into account your age and general wear and tear.

I would check with your doctor and see what they think.


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## buggi (10 Jan 2011)

I suffered from bad knees when i took up spinning. 

the physio told me that i was slightly knock knee'd in one leg (knee cap turns in) and the inside quarter of my quad muscle hadn't developed properly compared to the rest (who'd have thought it? I didn't think any of it had developed! LOL)

Anyway, she gave me some exercises to sort it which basically involved performing simple exercises but turning my feet out so that the inside developed (ie. get on the cross trainer but turn my feet slightly out). Anyway, i couldn't be arsed with all that and, as my knee hadn't hurt before i took up spinning, i just gave the spinning up and went back to normal cycling. 

when i rode to Paris the first time, someone mentioned that i rode with my knee in. i became a little self conscious of it and tried to correct it, only to cause myself trouble again. 

a few months ago i did a stint at Newport velodrome with some mates and they hired a Team GB cycling coach. He immediately picked up on my problem but said i cycled with my ankle out (didn't mention my knee). So in fact, although it IS my knee that is naturally out of line, which causes me to cycle with my ankle out, if i concentrate on keeping my ankle in instead of trying to line up my knee i have found that this naturally brings my knee back in line. 

funnily enough when i do this i feel like my toes point out but in fact, my feet are dead straight on the pedals. Anyway, what i'm trying to say is, it very likely is the position of your feet that is causing the problem.


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## Banjo (10 Jan 2011)

A friend of mine who rides a slick tyred MTB on roads suffered serious knee pain through having the seat too low.


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## HLaB (11 Jan 2011)

The posted bikeradar article is good; I found out I was concentrating too much on the angle of the cleat  what really needed to adjust was the laterall movement of the cleat.


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## MLC (11 Jan 2011)

I had the same problem but this was prior to going clipless and I was riding with toe straps, so I knew cleat angle was not the problem. Not saying that this is not the case with you but there are other things that may have contributed to the pain.

Your post starts with "While I have been mostly doing shorter off-road XC riding, I have done a couple of road based longer rides for charity."

My guess here is that your XC may mean you spent longer in the smaller/mid ring and you spun more but switching to longer Charity rides which may have been on road necessitated use of the big ring for far longer periods which meant grinding instead of spinning thereby increasing the load to your knee. This is of course just a guess based on the above sentence.

Although I ride a road bike mine was actually changing cycle clubs upping the pace and spending a lot longer in the larger chainring than I used to thereby increasing load to my knees. 

By staying away from the big ring for a bit upping my spinning rate rather than switching to the big ring the pain went naturally. I am not saying that I never ever use the big ring but on a road bike anything up to 19-20mph can be achieved in the smaller of the double rings. I change up now with a bit more thought and concentrate more on increasing RPM (to the point of my natural ability) prior to changing up. The pain comes back if I do too much too soon so please bear the above in mind together with seat height (too high or low can cause havoc), cleat position and angle and upping mileage quickly and substantially. 

I can only relate your pain to my previous experience and the reason may not be the same but exhaust all of the points on here rather than just pinpointing one and you should get there.

Good luck


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