# Reflective Clothing Psychology - Your Thoughts...



## eeheeheebike (22 Sep 2021)

So 0 

As the night closes in sooner every passing day, the leaves are falling and the freaky night cyclists emerge from the depths (me included!)... 

What are the current thoughts on reflective clothing?

Based on a lot of evidence, studies and other people's viewpoints I am inclined to believe the following...

- Yellow High Viz is so overused these days that people are basically mentally blanking it out
- From riding motorcycles and cycles for many years I am of the opinion that you could be wearing a full size Mr Blobby outfit, and if they ain't gonna see you, they ain't gonna see you.
- Movement reflectives (Pedals / leg bands) may help the issue
- ProVis is excellent but like riding in a binbag in terms of sweating
- Lights lights lights (I ride with lights even in the daytime as they are hard wired in anyway)

Now I will sit back and wait for you all to tell me how wrong I am


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## ClichéGuevara (22 Sep 2021)

Irregular flashing lights seem to be favourite for catching the eye.

As I understand it, the fundamental problem is that the eye takes in more than the brain can process, so it filters out a lot of the message, and fills the gaps with what it expects to see there based on experience, which is a part of the reason why Hi-Viz is becoming less effective.


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## Oldhippy (22 Sep 2021)

Never bothered with it myself. I just wear my regular clothing and put the lights my bike when it gets dark.


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## Dolorous Edd (22 Sep 2021)

eeheeheebike said:


> Yellow High Viz is so overused these days that people are basically mentally blanking it out



Probably more true in some environments (busy dense urban) than in others (unlit quiet country lanes)?


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (22 Sep 2021)

Reflectives on the bits that move are about the most I would worry about, legs and ankles. Maybe a little on gloves.

Apart from that, decent lights


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## tinywheels (22 Sep 2021)

hi, I use a combination of hi viz, flashing lights front and rear,plus a strobe light from guardian angel.
the strobe is superb, it's visable from the moon
Never underestimate the stupidly of the average car driver. 
it's your neck at the end of the day. so ride defensively.


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## winjim (22 Sep 2021)

Forget lights. Lights are rubbish, bright ones in the city especially so. I ride with thirtyish year old vistalite and it's beautifully dim.

Reflectors are great. The Jiu Jitsu of illumination, use your enemy's strength against them. Passive yet dynamic, and more eye catching than lights. Pedal reflectors are especially great but if you want to go further than required then biomechanical ones that emphasise the human shape.

I really hate bright lights, did I mention that?


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## cougie uk (22 Sep 2021)

Reflectives on your legs and feet. Or old school pedal reflectors. They're very visible. 

Colour doesn't matter if it's dark. If you are riding in the light - wear something bright. 

If the driver isn't looking he still won't see you so assume they haven't noticed you and ride defensively. 

Good luck.


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## tinywheels (22 Sep 2021)

winjim said:


> Forget lights. Lights are rubbish, bright ones in the city especially so. I ride with thirtyish year old vistalite and it's beautifully dim.
> 
> Reflectors are great. The Jiu Jitsu of illumination, use your enemy's strength against them. Passive yet dynamic, and more eye catching than lights. Pedal reflectors are especially great but if you want to go further than required then biomechanical ones that emphasise the human shape.
> 
> I really hate bright lights, did I mention that?


not sure where you're commuting, but round my way you'd probably be wiped out in minutes relying on pedal reflectors.
I speak from 57 years experience in Central London riding. Grew up in se17,now commuting in by train,last 20 years.


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## Mugshot (22 Sep 2021)

"Take a brush, to your bike."

You know it makes sense.


View: https://youtu.be/1MFuSMz1zh0


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## Drago (22 Sep 2021)

Dolorous Edd said:


> Probably more true in some environments (busy dense urban) than in others (unlit quiet country lanes)?


The country - ooh ar aye! - presents other challenges. 

There is some evidence that yellow hi vis exhibits a camouflage effect against the green background of the rural environment. This is why search and rescue teams were either red, or orange hi vis.


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## neil_merseyside (22 Sep 2021)

My preference for lighting is for one steady light and one flasher (at each end). Reflective patches on shoes, reflective bead runs down the side seam of my longs, and in a trim across the bottom of the shoulder vent on my winter jacket, the bike has reflective patches all over. I have reflective strip on some tyres, but also those reflective tubes on the front wheel as that end pokes out into traffic first - but I'm rarely out at night.
In any case if the motorist isn't looking he (it's always a he generally) won't see you anyway.


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## winjim (22 Sep 2021)

tinywheels said:


> not sure where you're commuting, but round my way you'd probably be wiped out in minutes relying on pedal reflectors.
> I speak from 57 years experience in Central London riding. Grew up in se17,now commuting in by train,last 20 years.


I speak from experience as a driver. The thing that catches my attention and identifies a cyclist most easily, is a set of pedal reflectors. Bright lights dazzle and also get lost in the night time sea of traffic and city light. I find reflectors much more dynamic.


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## Sharky (22 Sep 2021)

Reflective slap bands round the ankles are effective on dark roads. Yellow hi-viz jackets are really only for day light riding. Don't think they show up in the dark and they are usually very uncomfortable to cycle in.

I did commute for a while with a red flashing light at the rear AND a blue flashing light. This being a bit different, really stood out. In fact a couple of times I was stopped, not by the plod, but by motorists asking where you can buy them from.


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## Mugshot (22 Sep 2021)

winjim said:


> I speak from experience as a driver. The thing that catches my attention and identifies a cyclist most easily, is a set of pedal reflectors. Bright lights dazzle and also get lost in the night time sea of traffic and city light. I find reflectors much more dynamic.


I have an issue with this, maybe as a result of riding in a rural rather than an urban environment. 
I don't want to be identified as a cyclist, I want to be identified as a road user, flashing front lights and the like immediately say cyclist, and cyclists are slow and hold up motorists. My experience was that I got pulled out on far more often when I ran flashing front lights and was bedecked in typical cyclist PPE, rather than just running a steady front light.

I'm talking generally BTW, I do understand you're talking about reflectors


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## tinywheels (22 Sep 2021)

winjim said:


> I speak from experience as a driver. The thing that catches my attention and identifies a cyclist most easily, is a set of pedal reflectors. Bright lights dazzle and also get lost in the night time sea of traffic and city light. I find reflectors much more dynamic.


I too own and drive a car. Therefore I am able to appreciate how drivers perceive us.
Unfortunately a lot of motorists are just twats, as are many cyclists.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (22 Sep 2021)

winjim said:


> I speak from experience as a driver. The thing that catches my attention and identifies a cyclist most easily, is a set of pedal reflectors. Bright lights dazzle and also get lost in the night time sea of traffic and city light. I find reflectors much more dynamic.


Badly aimed lights if of any brightness have more of an effect for everyone elses eyes imo. Something I have brought up every single year multiple times regarding clubmates.


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## mickle (22 Sep 2021)

It's all about communicating what you are, where you are plus your direction of travel and speed. Flashing lights are great in this respect because they are so inextricably associated with cyclists. Reflectors or reflective tape is most effective when attached to moving parts - legs, pedals, cranks, wheels - because they allow you to paint a 3D picture of a moving cyclist in a way that a solitary flashing light cannot. Squares of retro reflective tape stuck to the rims between every spoke hole brings your wheels to life. Just stickering half of the rim introduces a 'flash' / on-off effect which catches the eye. It's worth bearing in mind that drivers attention, like their headlights, is mostly focused on an area between the road in front of them and the horizon. It follows that lights and reflectors should be concentrated lower down for maximum visual impact. And in human perception something low down registers as 'near to' whilst something higher up registers as 'far away'. Hi-viz yellow serves no useful purpose at night.


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## Xipe Totec (22 Sep 2021)

I don't disagree with you. My background & experience sounds similar to yours (decades of motorcycling & cycling) & the dayglo-clownsuit approach is as likely to mark you as a target for some of the furious car-driving psychopaths out there as it is to motivate them to demonstrate consideration. As has been mentioned dayglo's useless in the dark, and the unpleasant reality is that when a driver can't be arsed looking, you could be riding around on fire and they'd still mow you down.

Lights, moving reflectors, lights, confident road-positioning & manoeuvering, lights, and bold colours in daytime - I like red, as it's the fastest (in my case substituting a 't' for the first 's') colour and I need all the help I can get.


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## tinywheels (22 Sep 2021)

I was taught to ride a motorcycle in 1976 by an ex police motorcyclist. Defensive driving/motorcycling or cycling. call it what you want, his advice has stood the test of time.
That style of road craft will save your bacon. However I'm taking no chances, so it's Day-Glo,lights and whistle for me.


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## winjim (22 Sep 2021)

Mugshot said:


> I have an issue with this, maybe as a result of riding in a rural rather than an urban environment.
> I don't want to be identified as a cyclist, I want to be identified as a road user, flashing front lights and the like immediately say cyclist, and cyclists are slow and hold up motorists. My experience was that I got pulled out on far more often when I ran flashing front lights and was bedecked in typical cyclist PPE, rather than just running a steady front light.
> 
> I'm talking generally BTW, I do understand you're talking about reflectors


I'm also coming at it from the point of view of a driver who is sympathetic to cyclists so wants them to be identified as such. I find the modern bright lights, both on motor vehicles and bicycles, really unpleasant. Flashing lights, chase pattern indicators, DRLs, those weird ones that switch on and off when you go round corners, they're dazzling and aggressive, and don't properly convey to me the information I need. It's noise but it's confusing noise, like being constantly yelled at in a language I don't understand.

Reflectors are nice and peaceful and calming amd friendly...


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## winjim (22 Sep 2021)

mickle said:


> It follows that lights and reflectors should be concentrated lower down for maximum visual impact. And in human perception something low down registers as 'near to' whilst something higher up registers as 'far away'.


Mudguard reflectors, now you're talking my language.


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## MichaelW2 (22 Sep 2021)

Hi viz reflective clothing is especially good at protecting hit cyclists from lawyers.


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## tinywheels (22 Sep 2021)

I find when driving hi viz alerts me to something that requires attention. As do strobe lights. Never been hit yet,we'll only by an irate pedestrian. They took offence to my whistle as I approached from behind.


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## newfhouse (22 Sep 2021)

MichaelW2 said:


> Hi viz reflective clothing is especially good at protecting hit cyclists from lawyers.


Looks crap though.


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## tinywheels (22 Sep 2021)

my showers pass gear is quite sexy,and keeps me dry and toasty. 
not all hi viz gear is utilitarian.


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## stoatsngroats (22 Sep 2021)

I like lights, 2 front, 2 rear plus flashing bar ends if needed too. And additional reflective tape on both mud flaps.
I do like the fully reflective jackets too, can’t remember the name of the one Mrs SnG has….
I think the more the better, especially on dark country lanes….
After, anything that can attract attention raises the possibility that a driver might see you.
Lights don’t have to be dazzling… just there….


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## tinywheels (22 Sep 2021)

you may like this company's products 
guardian angel 
I got mine via chum in the USA,but they do ship here. If a driver fails to see this they should not be driving.


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## Drago (22 Sep 2021)

Remember that over bright daytime lights actjally increase the chance of Mavis Cager scooping you off your bike (please, for the love of God, don't ask me again to explain the mechanism behind this).

Things that intuitively seem a good idea in the name of safety rarely are.


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## tinywheels (22 Sep 2021)

Drago said:


> Remember that over bright daytime lights actjally increase the chance of Mavis Cager scooping you off your bike (please, for the love of God, don't ask me again to explain the mechanism behind this).
> 
> Things that intuitively seem a good idea in the name of safety rarely are.


do you have link to a study please


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## Drago (22 Sep 2021)

I actually have a paper magazine from the 80's when this research was first published. Ive previously referenced it and explained in full the mechanism behind it. 

Its very lengthy and complex so you're best off doing a forum search.

Edit - found it for you.

https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/a...ed-with-indicators.254656/page-3#post-5783404


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## freiston (22 Sep 2021)

I like riding at night - mostly unlit country lanes - and I haven't made much of an effort outside of being legal. My pedals have fore and aft reflectors, I have very good bright StVZO dynamo lighting with a reflector built into the rear rack mounted lamp and the headlamp suitably angled so as not to dazzle. Both lights have a standlight feature. Sometimes I have other reflective surfaces on clothing or bags but this is not actively pursued when purchasing said clothing or bags. I do feel better making hand signals if the gloves/forearms/cuffs have reflective elements. My tyres have the reflective sidewalls (again, not actively pursued) and I have to say that on seeing bikes so equipped when I've been a car passenger at busy large urban junctions, they are very noticeable even amongst the plethora of lights, reflectors and wet-tarmac reflections.

My lights are always in steady mode and my personal unscientific observation/impression is that I get more consistent consideration from motor vehicle drivers at night than in the day - so much so that I feel safer - but this might also be due to my being more aware of them on winding country lanes before they are in sight because I can see their lights and hear the vehicles too (I find it easier to hear motor vehicles at night, maybe because it's quieter then and there's fewer of them). I think they might be generally driving more cautiously too.

I really do feel that good lights and reflectors that meet the legal requirement not only should be good enough for the job but are good enough and if another road user doesn't see you with these, then to a great extent, anything beyond the legal requirement (whilst staying legal) is not going to be a game-changer.

I've always felt uncomfortable about the modern practice of putting white/silver reflectors on the back of clothing and bags rather than red/orange/yellow reflectors.


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## Alex321 (23 Sep 2021)

winjim said:


> Forget lights. Lights are rubbish, bright ones in the city especially so. I ride with thirtyish year old vistalite and it's beautifully dim.
> 
> Reflectors are great. The Jiu Jitsu of illumination, use your enemy's strength against them. Passive yet dynamic, and more eye catching than lights. Pedal reflectors are especially great but if you want to go further than required then biomechanical ones that emphasise the human shape.
> 
> I really hate bright lights, did I mention that?


 If you ride without decent lights, then you cannot have ridden anywhere with traffic. Otherwise you would forcibly be no longer be riding.

They are orders of magnitude more important than reflectors.


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## shep (23 Sep 2021)

Rode Motorcycles for 35yrs and never worn dayglo and don't on pushbikes, not convinced it makes you more visible to be honest. 
Plus, you look a tw*t.


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## lazybloke (23 Sep 2021)

Did someone say hi-vis is no good at night? Every hi-vis I've seen had reflective panels for darkness!

Although I'd say Proviz jackets (and similar) are the best at night; amazingly conspicuous in a really eye-catching manner, although they bring a fair amount of discomfort so I rarely wear mine


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## lazybloke (23 Sep 2021)

shep said:


> Rode Motorcycles for 35yrs and never worn dayglo and don't on pushbikes, not convinced it makes you more visible to be honest.
> Plus, you look a tw*t.


Looking at road traffic collision stats, I'd say (in)visibility of motorcyclists is a massive problem that needs addressing.
Daygo won't do it but might make a contribution.


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## classic33 (23 Sep 2021)

lazybloke said:


> Did someone say hi-vis is no good at night? Every hi-vis I've seen had reflective panels for darkness!
> 
> Although I'd say Proviz jackets (and similar) are the best at night; amazingly conspicuous in a really eye-catching manner, although they bring a fair amount of discomfort so I rarely wear mine


I get the feeling that many expect the lighter colour makes them stand out as much at night as it does during the day.

The advantage to a lighter colour during daylight hours is the contrast it can provide. At night the colour disappears in the lighting, leaving the reflective strips to make them stand out. Saturn Yellow all but disappeared under the sodium lights and is worse under LED lighting.


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## flake99please (23 Sep 2021)

Proviz 360 jacket or fillet (other brands available). Optimum reflective clothing IMO


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## tinywheels (23 Sep 2021)

lazybloke said:


> Looking at road traffic collision stats, I'd say (in)visibility of motorcyclists is a massive problem that needs addressing.
> Daygo won't do it but might make a contribution.


 your riding style will make the most difference. drivers often fail to realise how rapid a motorcycle is,in relation to their trundling boxes. Defensive mentality will stand you in good stead.


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## Julia9054 (23 Sep 2021)

lazybloke said:


> Although I'd say Proviz jackets (and similar) are the best at night; amazingly conspicuous in a really eye-catching manner, although they bring a fair amount of discomfort so I rarely wear mine


Picked up a Proviz jacket in TKMaxx for £10 a few years ago. Someone had mistakenly put a women’s size 10 on the men’s rail so no one had bought it hence the reduction.
It looked amazing - reflective panels and battery operated light up ones. I looked like Tron. Unfortunately it was the sweatiest thing it was possible to wear. The last straw came when the pocket zip jammed fast with my keys inside and I had to cut it open. In the bin with that, thank goodness I hadn’t paid full price.


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## tinywheels (23 Sep 2021)

Julia9054 said:


> Picked up a Proviz jacket in TKMaxx for £10 a few years ago. Someone had mistakenly put a women’s size 10 on the men’s rail so no one had bought it hence the reduction.
> It looked amazing - reflective panels and battery operated light up ones. I looked like Tron. Unfortunately it was the sweatiest thing it was possible to wear. The last straw came when the pocket zip jammed fast with my keys inside and I had to cut it open. In the bin with that, thank goodness I hadn’t paid full price.


showers pass make far superior wear,expensive but worth it. why compromise I say.


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## mickle (23 Sep 2021)

tinywheels said:


> I find when driving hi viz alerts me to something that requires attention.



I prefer to proceed in the basis that everything in front of my car requires my attention. Dressed in hi-viz or not.


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## Oldhippy (23 Sep 2021)

The one I fail completely to understand is long distance cycle routes, 90% traffic free and still the helmet, hi viz, lights gubbins?


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## GuyBoden (23 Sep 2021)

Oldhippy said:


> The one I fail completely to understand is long distance cycle routes, 90% traffic free and still the helmet, hi viz, lights gubbins?


I agree, riding country lanes on a nice dry sunny summer day seems safe enough, but urban commuting is a very different game.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (23 Sep 2021)

lazybloke said:


> Did someone say hi-vis is no good at night? Every hi-vis I've seen had reflective panels for darkness!
> 
> Although I'd say Proviz jackets (and similar) are the best at night; amazingly conspicuous in a really eye-catching manner, although they bring a fair amount of discomfort so I rarely wear mine


They're two different things, hi-viz refers to a range of colours that appear intensely bright when natural light hits them (typically yellow orange red and pink) The lack of natural light at night makes such colours appear dull if not dark.

Reflectives on the other hand can be placed on any colour garment (yep even black)


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## Oldhippy (23 Sep 2021)

I think the biggest issue I have is people 'fearing' the traffic and having to dress up but the people who create the traffic seem to get off scott free with little or no responsibility.


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## mudsticks (23 Sep 2021)

eeheeheebike said:


> So 0
> 
> As the night closes in sooner every passing day, the leaves are falling and the freaky night cyclists emerge from the depths (me included!)...
> 
> ...




I resisted the hi vis for years.

Nasty colours .

In my younger days I used to regularly ride the lanes at night with no lights.
Naughty I know, but it's all so beautiful once you've got your night vision working.

A few snowy moonlit night rides were just magical..
Like Narnia!!

And I'd just stop if I saw a motor vehicle with lights coming..


Nowadays I'm a bit older and even a possibly a bit more boringer --

plus I made my kids wear hi vis and use lights so...

Altogether, I do feel more visible in high Vis, whatever the science says, so tend to wear it more often than not..



And the roads are definitely busier.

I think feeling more visible makes me feel more like I can take up my space with more confidence.

i mostly use a zip up yellow/ orange gilet, with reflective strips .

tights have reflective strips.

And I use non flashing lights.

fwiw as a sometimes car driver I find the super bright bike lights a bit dazzling to the point of confusion.


Ok so I might see you , but another rider with 'standard lights' alongside may get lost in the glare.


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## Alex321 (23 Sep 2021)

Oldhippy said:


> The one I fail completely to understand is long distance cycle routes, 90% traffic free and still the helmet, hi viz, lights gubbins?


I will always wear a helmet - never mind other traffic, I can make a mistake myself leading to a body/ground interface.

And if it is at all dull, and there will be ANY traffic on my route, then at least a (flashing) rear light.


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## sasquath (23 Sep 2021)

Alex321 said:


> I will always wear a helmet - never mind other traffic, I can make a mistake myself leading to a body/ground interface.
> 
> And if it is at all dull, and there will be ANY traffic on my route, then at least a (flashing) rear light.


I second that, only time I needed an helmet was on forest lane(gravel covered tarmac) with no traffic ever. Digging thumb size stones from helmet was quite a shocker for my ridemates...


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## Mr Celine (23 Sep 2021)

stoatsngroats said:


> View attachment 610476
> 
> I like lights, 2 front, 2 rear plus flashing bar ends if needed too. And additional reflective tape on both mud flaps.
> I do like the fully reflective jackets too, can’t remember the name of the one Mrs SnG has….
> ...


A set up so good you rode all the way to the funeral director to purchase a pre-paid funeral plan...


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## theclaud (23 Sep 2021)

I don't wish to be part of a hi-vis arms race that pedestrians and cyclists can't win. Like @winjim, I loathe bright lights. You need a bright front light for night-time riding if you are either off-road, or out in the sticks at the front of the peleton. Everwhere else they are just a pain in the arse to others. Don't even start me on people with strobe front lights. So I initially took a shine (IYSWIM) to retroreflectives, as I hate flouro colours - I bought one of those ProViz 360 jackets quite early on. One of their more entertaining effects is that they set off all the automatic taps and toilet flushes when you walk past, as I found at a motorway services stop on the Southend ride a few years back. You can play Poltergeists. I liked the idea that the responsibility for illumination lay with vehicle drivers - you could be an inconspicuous and stylish silver-grey until someone directed their vehicle at you, and then you would reflect their own light back at them in a 'Here I am, Motherf****r' kinda way. Then I was reading a Bez blog about the proliferation of retroreflectives and the auto industry's exploration of their role in facilitating driverless technology - I think it was occasioned by Volvo trying to push retroreflective spray paint for cyclists - and I decided I'd been had. If I wasn't such a tightwad I'd have chucked the jacket away, but as someone said upthread, they are very warm, so I still keep if for sub-zero temperatures. We all need to dim the lights and enjoy the moonlight.


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## winjim (23 Sep 2021)

Alex321 said:


> If you ride without decent lights, then you cannot have ridden anywhere with traffic. Otherwise you would forcibly be no longer be riding.
> 
> They are orders of magnitude more important than reflectors.


Decent is subjective. My rear light I would say is decent. Nearly thirty years old and slightly knackered, but still decent enough.

Big bright flashers, if anything, are indecent. But then most of my night time riding is commuting in a built up area, with streetlights, so lights aren't really necessary.


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## MontyVeda (23 Sep 2021)

I used to have a bright yellow cycling raincoat (it wasn't reflective, but was hi-viz). I felt more visible when wearing it, but since it got knackered and binned, I reverted to wearing whatever; black, green, grey... I don't feel any less visible. 

I feel more visible if I'm wearing stripes than a block colour, or a T shirt with a big bold print on the back... but regardless of how visible i feel, I've no real idea of how visible I am. That is down to other road users; are they being observant enough to ensure my safety?


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## mudsticks (23 Sep 2021)

winjim said:


> Decent is subjective. My rear light I would say is decent. Nearly thirty years old and slightly knackered, but still decent enough.
> 
> Big bright flashers, if anything, are indecent. But then most of my night time riding is commuting in a built up area, with streetlights, so lights aren't really necessary.



I've taken to a bit of city night riding again just lately.

After a long break where it was mainly just dark dark lanes.

It's quite a different experience isn't it ??

I'm not very brave at it yet, everything is so busy and fast, and I feel a bit invisible.

Give me pitch black lane with a 'normal' light showing the way, any day (night)

I guess I might end up going for for flashing after all.

I don't know, is it all just going to escalate, brightness wise, until we've all just burnt each others retina out...


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## Alex321 (23 Sep 2021)

winjim said:


> Decent is subjective. My rear light I would say is decent. Nearly thirty years old and slightly knackered, but still decent enough.
> 
> Big bright flashers, if anything, are indecent. But then most of my night time riding is commuting in a built up area, with streetlights, so lights aren't really necessary.


Decent mean bright enough to be seen, given the prevailing conditions.

A rear light (ideally flashing) is MORE necessary in areas with street lights than on unlit roads (though legally required after dark on all roads). A front light that actually lights up the road, however, is only needed on unlit roads or trails.

Flashing lights don't need to be stupidly bright, it is the flash that attracts attention.


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## kingrollo (23 Sep 2021)

The main problem is motorists not looking where they are going and there isn't an awful lot we can do about that. The problem with asking such questions on a cycling forum is that it all gets a bit tribal - why should we have to wear reflective gear ? Why can't poor drivers be appropriately punished.

IMO despite some research to the contrary - I wouldn't go out cycling even in daytime with the stealth look.
I err towards brighter colours - and nearly always ride with a daylight flasher.


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## ebikeerwidnes (23 Sep 2021)

I generally wear either a hi-vis coat/vest or a colourful t-shirt when riding
First sign of any reduction in in light and I put on 2 front lights and 2 rear lights
in both cases one flashing and one steady

I read somewhere that people have problems judging distance from flashing lights and that is why legally you should have a steady light.
If it gets dark I have 2 more lights at each end if I need them. One of the front lights is quite bright so is only used on dark paths or when pointed quite low - away from the sight line of any cars so as to avoid dazzling them

No idea if it works - but it seems better than nothing
However, it is naff all use of the driver doesn;t look which is where defensive driving/riding helps out. I assume no-one will deliberately drive into me (I'm an optimist!!!) and if I'm directly in their path with a light pointed right at them then they will see me (see - more optimism!)

Before winter I aim to get a light for my helmet (which is bright white) and some reflective tape for my mudguards

AT the very least - when I get run over and someone says SMIDSY I want to be able to point out as many things as possible!

Of course - we shouldn;t have to - but there you are


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## Alex321 (23 Sep 2021)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> I generally wear either a hi-vis coat/vest or a colourful t-shirt when riding
> First sign of any reduction in in light and I put on 2 front lights and 2 rear lights
> in both cases one flashing and one steady
> 
> I read somewhere that people have problems judging distance from flashing lights and that is why legally you should have a steady light.


Legally, you no longer need to have a steady light. That law was changed quite a few years ago.

But yes, it can be hard to judge the distance of a flashing light. Having said which, the flashing light is more noticeable to start with, and I'd rather the motorist see me in the first place.



> If it gets dark I have 2 more lights at each end if I need them. One of the front lights is quite bright so is only used on dark paths or when pointed quite low - away from the sight line of any cars so as to avoid dazzling them
> 
> No idea if it works - but it seems better than nothing
> However, it is naff all use of the driver doesn;t look which is where defensive driving/riding helps out. I assume no-one will deliberately drive into me (I'm an optimist!!!) and if I'm directly in their path with a light pointed right at them then they will see me (see - more optimism!)
> ...



Indeed. It doesn't much matter to us if a driver goes to jail for causing death by careless driving, if we are the dead one 

Staying alive is much more important than any "they should be watching the road ahead".


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## cougie uk (23 Sep 2021)

Oldhippy said:


> The one I fail completely to understand is long distance cycle routes, 90% traffic free and still the helmet, hi viz, lights gubbins?



I sometimes ride on a decent traffic free bike path. I do have to ride some nastier roads to get to and from it. If I'm riding in the dark you bet I'm riding with lights and reflectives. In fact even in the day I ride with flashing LEDs.


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## winjim (23 Sep 2021)

Alex321 said:


> Decent mean bright enough to be seen, given the prevailing conditions.
> 
> A rear light (ideally flashing) is MORE necessary in areas with street lights than on unlit roads (though legally required after dark on all roads). A front light that actually lights up the road, however, is only needed on unlit roads or trails.
> 
> Flashing lights don't need to be stupidly bright, it is the flash that attracts attention.


If we're talking legal requirements then of course that includes rear red and pedal reflectors although tbf I'm not sure that any of the lights I own are technically legal as I don't think they're BS marked (or equivalent whatever).


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## sasquath (23 Sep 2021)

The side effect of DRL on cars is that drivers look for lights not for objects in the road.
Steady bike light can dissapear on the background of many DRL, you can have bike 10 meters from the junction and it's light will blend with ligths of cars 100 meters back from it - crash ready.
That's a reason for flashing lights on a bike(motor and pedal).

Same applies to rear lights at night, especially for astigmatic drivers.


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## Alex321 (23 Sep 2021)

winjim said:


> If we're talking legal requirements then of course that includes rear red and pedal reflectors although tbf I'm not sure that any of the lights I own are technically legal as I don't think they're BS marked (or equivalent whatever).


It does, and very few bikes or clipless pedals come with those now, so technically most serious cyclists will be breaking that law.

All the regulations say about markings for lights is they must have " An approval mark or a British Standard mark ".

Technically, I think a bell or other audible warning device is still legally required too, but only when the bike is first sold, there is no law requiring you to keep the bell on the bike, or to use it. My new bike came without one though, and I can't find one for sale that would fit - almost all of the ones on sale are designed to fit kids bikes, with smaller diameter handlebars.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (23 Sep 2021)

Alex321 said:


> It does, and very few bikes or clipless pedals come with those now, so technically most serious cyclists will be breaking that law.
> 
> All the regulations say about markings for lights is they must have " An approval mark or a British Standard mark ".
> 
> Technically, I think a bell or other audible warning device is still legally required too, but only when the bike is first sold, there is no law requiring you to keep the bell on the bike, or to use it. My new bike came without one though, and I can't find one for sale that would fit - almost all of the ones on sale are designed to fit kids bikes, with smaller diameter handlebars.


A bicycle is legally required to be sold with a bell, however a little known fact is that a bell is a legal requirement in Northern Ireland.


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## Blue Hills (23 Sep 2021)

Only time I've ever put a high viz vest on is in a long long tunnel - maybe 2 or 3km - otherwise I just make sure I have good rear lights - pretty much always two, sometimes 3.


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## Mike_P (23 Sep 2021)

+1 for bright pedals/shoes/socks as applicable daynight or night, when driving they beyond lights the one thing I notice more than anything else


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## DiggyGun (24 Sep 2021)

Alex321 said:


> Legally, you no longer need to have a steady light. That law was changed quite a few years ago




Bike lights don’t just help you to see the road, they also help other road users and pedestrians see you. Using lights and reflectors on your bike at night is a legal requirement. According to the UK’s Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations (RVLR), a white light must be showing from the front of your bike and a red light from the rear. The main points of RVLR are as follows:


Lights and reflectors are required on a pedal cycle only between sunset and sunrise.
Lights and reflectors are not required when the cycle is stationary or being pushed along the roadside.
When they are required, the lights and reflectors listed below must be clean and working properly.
Rule 60 of the Highway Code states:

_ “At night your cycle MUST have white front and red rear lights lit. It MUST also be fitted with a red rear reflector (and amber pedal reflectors, if manufactured after 1/10/85). White front reflectors and spoke reflectors will also help you to be seen. Flashing lights are permitted but it is recommended that cyclists who are riding in areas without street lighting use a steady front lamp.”_


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## shep (24 Sep 2021)

lazybloke said:


> Looking at road traffic collision stats, I'd say (in)visibility of motorcyclists is a massive problem that needs addressing.
> Daygo won't do it but might make a contribution.


Talking from experience, and a number of collisions, excess speed on the Motorcyclist's part is the main factor coupled with car drivers inability to judge the rate of approach. 
Headlights are permanently on with all but the oldest bikes now so I genuinely can't see a bit of hi-viz doing much, opinion only obviously.


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## cougie uk (24 Sep 2021)

Mike_P said:


> +1 for bright pedals/shoes/socks as applicable daynight or night, when driving they beyond lights the one thing I notice more than anything else


I've never noticed bright socks after dark. Reflective stuff yes but not bright colours.


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## T4tomo (24 Sep 2021)

the provis stuff is great at night, I have the gilet and when i used to dark commute it what I used and less sweaty that a full jacket. plus I had a strip of 3M reflective tape all round on forks and rear stays and cranks / pedals 9where the didn't have reflectors) so you have side on vision for junctions etc (only really applicable in town/ city commute). also the valve cap lights are great as the move as you are riding. As a car driver, this is the stuff you see.

Stupidly bright flashing lights pointed in fellow cyclists and motorist eyes should be a shooting offence.


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## Drago (24 Sep 2021)

T4tomo said:


> Stupidly bright flashing lights pointed in fellow cyclists and motorist eyes should be a shooting offence.


A year or so back I encountered a chap that had what appeared to be a WWII searchlight powered by a radioisotope generator. It was night and my retinas felt like they'd done a round with Mike Tyson, as this implausibly powerful thing was aimed right in my face.

The light just oblitereated any realistic view of him and utterly negated any chance i had of properly judging his speed and idrection relative to myself, so I pulled up and waited at the edge of the cycle path - how many blinde motorists would simply just plough on regardless? 

I used some very fruity luggage to tell him what a selfish, dangerous idiot he was, but the chump couldn't see oast the fact that he had lights and was therefore an automatic exemplar of safety and consideration. I still get angry thinking about it now.


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## gcogger (24 Sep 2021)

I tend to use my own experience as a driver to judge what to wear on the bike, based on what helps _me_ notice cyclists and judge their positions. There's no guarantee that everyone's observation works the same as mine, but it's all I've got to go on.
I find reflective items, especially moving ones (e.g. on pedals) really help me notice people when it's properly dark, as do flashing lights. I don't agree that bright colours are pointless in the dark, as things like a bright yellow make it easier to judge distances - you can see the whole person at much greater distances than someone wearing dark colours, as it doesn't take much light to make them visible. Solid lights are also a little better for judging distance than flashing ones.
The more difficult time can be around dawn/dusk when there's _some_ light, but not a great deal and contrast is low. In those cases the reflectors are less helpful, though bright flashing lights do help. Again, I find that something like bright yellow clothing helps me see people better in those conditions, with dark clothing being particularly bad.

I totally agree, though, that a bright light pointed straight into people's eyes makes things _far_ more dangerous.


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## sasquath (24 Sep 2021)

From driver perspective(from my experience), in a heavy city traffic at night everything above average car lights height is just a noise. Reflective ankle bands or at least contrasting coloured trousers are more visible than flashing backpack, jacket or helmet. On country lanes, especially where full beam might be in use, every reflective bit helps to be seen from miles away.
Also when signalling turns move your arm up and down, movement catches the eye, there is a reason why indicators on cars are flashing, not solid. And in night city wave signaling arm at a height that can be light up by cars light, easier to see than an arm parallel to the road at ~2m above the road. I do(aim to do) a 45 degree swipe up an down.


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## freiston (24 Sep 2021)

sasquath said:


> From driver perspective(from my experience), in a heavy city traffic at night everything above average car lights height is just a noise. Reflective ankle bands or at least contrasting coloured trousers are more visible than flashing backpack, jacket or helmet. On country lanes, especially where full beam might be in use, every reflective bit helps to be seen from miles away.
> Also when signalling turns move your arm up and down, movement catches the eye, there is a reason why indicators on cars are flashing, not solid. And in night city wave signaling arm at a height that can be light up by cars light, easier to see than an arm parallel to the road at ~2m above the road. I do(aim to do) a 45 degree swipe up an down.


Moving your arm up and down when signalling to move right will make it a signal to slow down or stop





Source: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/signals-to-other-road-users


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## C R (24 Sep 2021)

cougie uk said:


> I've never noticed bright socks after dark. Reflective stuff yes but not bright colours.


I got some ankle socks from Aldi that have a reflective spot at the back. My shoes also have reflective stripes, though my pedals don't have reflectors, or any means of adding them.


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## Mike_P (24 Sep 2021)

cougie uk said:


> I've never noticed bright socks after dark. Reflective stuff yes but not bright colours.


Yes meant reflective when dark but yellow shoes or yellow / bright green socks have the same drivers eye grabbing attention during the day.


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## matticus (24 Sep 2021)

freiston said:


> Moving your arm up and down when signalling to move right will make it a signal to slow down or stop
> View attachment 610640
> 
> Source: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/signals-to-other-road-users


... but very few people know this. And
... no-one is expecting a cyclist to use this signal with this meaning. (your picture shows a car)


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## freiston (24 Sep 2021)

C R said:


> I got some ankle socks from Aldi that have a reflective spot at the back. My shoes also have reflective stripes, though my pedals don't have reflectors, or any means of adding them.


It was because of the pedal reflectors that I bought Shimano PD-T400 when replacing the stock pedals for SPD on my bike. They're Click'R and the first time that I had used Click'R but I'm not a racer or a segment chaser so I'm not overly concerned about a vice-like hold. They still do the job of keeping my feet on the pedals just about all the time but my shoes have become detached from the pedals a couple of times - once belting it a >30mph downhill on a bumpy road and once spinning at probably over 120rpm in a sprint when messing about when out with my nephew (silly old git me).


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## NorthernSky (24 Sep 2021)

Mugshot said:


> "Take a brush, to your bike."
> 
> You know it makes sense.
> 
> ...





my mum foolishly let me and my sisters paint our bikes one sunny summers day (nagging we were bored probably)
unattended, we proceeded to paint the coal bunker, the shed and anything else in our path 🚲


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## freiston (24 Sep 2021)

matticus said:


> ... but very few people know this. And
> ... no-one is expecting a cyclist to use this signal with this meaning. (your picture shows a car)


None of that is good enough reason for giving a signal that means one thing when intending to do the opposite. Further down the linked page:


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (24 Sep 2021)

freiston said:


> None of that is good enough reason for giving a signal that means one thing when intending to do the opposite. Further down the linked page:
> View attachment 610644


The glaring omission from this is the fact that with your hand mid air, you are not A) closing the throttle or B) using the front brake


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## freiston (24 Sep 2021)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> The glaring omission from this is the fact that with your hand mid air, you are not A) closing the throttle or B) using the front brake


That does not change the fact that the signal is intended (ergo can be expected) to be used by people on two wheels or that the signal should not be used to indicate a right turn.


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## matticus (24 Sep 2021)

freiston said:


> None of that is good enough reason for giving a signal that means one thing when intending to do the opposite.


Well it's not the opposite, is it??

Perhaps we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Some of us will no doubt continue to wave our arms around, and I doubt that many catastrophes will result 👍


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## cougie uk (25 Sep 2021)

C R said:


> I got some ankle socks from Aldi that have a reflective spot at the back. My shoes also have reflective stripes, though my pedals don't have reflectors, or any means of adding them.


A bit of 3M reflective tape will stick on any pedal body. 
If you want the Stealth look then you can get black reflective but it's not as bright as the lighter coloured tapes. 

Taking a flash photo of your kit in the dark at a distance will give you an idea of how reflective you are.


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## C R (25 Sep 2021)

cougie uk said:


> A bit of 3M reflective tape will stick on any pedal body.
> If you want the Stealth look then you can get black reflective but it's not as bright as the lighter coloured tapes.
> 
> Taking a flash photo of your kit in the dark at a distance will give you an idea of how reflective you are.


The pedals are "buried" in the sole of my shoe when riding, so no amount of reflective tape is going to make them visible. The reflective in the back of the shoe is rather bright under a flashlight, so it plays the same role as the pedal reflector. This is in my road bike, which I don't ride in traffic in the dark. My commuter/shop bike OTOH is covered in reflectors and reflective tape, plus flashing and fixed lights back and front in both bikes.


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## Hover Fly (25 Sep 2021)

A while back, before the internet was common, a well known local was run over and at the trial it was pointed that he was walking in dark clothes so the driver got a lesser sentence. I’m not going to let a bad driver use an excuse like that so it’s light clothes, reflectors and BS marked lights for me.


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## ebikeerwidnes (25 Sep 2021)

Many years ago I lived in North Wales and to get home we had to drive up a very steep hill on a narrow single track road.
The road was a normal route for people walking into town from the local estate
It was overhung by a lot fo big trees and only had one street light

One evening in the middle of winter I was driving up it and just managed to notice about 3-4 young people walking down the hill - only just noticed them because they were going to Army Cadets and were wearing camouflage

Sometimes it almost seems like the local teenagers copy their example while riding their bikes around here!


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## dave r (25 Sep 2021)

freiston said:


> It was because of the pedal reflectors that I bought Shimano PD-T400 when replacing the stock pedals for SPD on my bike. They're Click'R and the first time that I had used Click'R but I'm not a racer or a segment chaser so I'm not overly concerned about a vice-like hold. They still do the job of keeping my feet on the pedals just about all the time but my shoes have become detached from the pedals a couple of times - once belting it a >30mph downhill on a bumpy road and once spinning at probably over 120rpm in a sprint when messing about when out with my nephew (silly old git me).



I use click R pedals on both my bikes.


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## freiston (25 Sep 2021)

dave r said:


> I use click R pedals on both my bikes.


I'll have to look out for you - I'm just the other side of Halford Lane from Holbrooks


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## dave r (25 Sep 2021)

freiston said:


> I'll have to look out for you - I'm just the other side of Halford Lane from Holbrooks



Not far from Pops then? I'm not doing a lot of cycling at the moment, you're more likely to see me in the car.


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## freiston (25 Sep 2021)

dave r said:


> Not far from Pops then? I'm not doing a lot of cycling at the moment, you're more likely to see me in the car.


pm sent


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## numbnuts (25 Sep 2021)

Night riding on a bike with red tights works “look at that prat in the red tight” - sorted


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## Ming the Merciless (25 Sep 2021)




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## cougie uk (25 Sep 2021)

Hover Fly said:


> A while back, before the internet was common, a well known local was run over and at the trial it was pointed that he was walking in dark clothes so the driver got a lesser sentence. I’m not going to let a bad driver use an excuse like that so it’s light clothes, reflectors and BS marked lights for me.


Yes - old bloke was run down just round the corner from me. Driver claimed he couldn't see him as he was in the shade of tall hedges. 

I always have lights on and ride wide down there. I'm not being lost in the hedge. If you hit me you just haven't been looking.


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## Ming the Merciless (25 Sep 2021)

Hover Fly said:


> A while back, before the internet was common, a well known local was run over and at the trial it was pointed that he was walking in dark clothes so the driver got a lesser sentence. I’m not going to let a bad driver use an excuse like that so it’s light clothes, reflectors and BS marked lights for me.



Did the driver get prosecuted for defective lighting as well as careless or dangerous driving?


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## Mike_P (25 Sep 2021)

cougie uk said:


> Yes - old bloke was run down just round the corner from me. Driver claimed he couldn't see him as he was in the shade of tall hedges.


I've seen that relationship between bicycle and shade, driving in a queue of traffic on an A road which was jittery in its speed. The cause transpired to be a nearly invisible cyclist hidden by dark clothing in the shade, drivers braking because they had not seen the cyclist earlier then pulling out to overtake rather than just pulling out


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## Ming the Merciless (25 Sep 2021)

Proviz is shoot. I have a hat made out of it. Even that makes my head sweat and it only gets used in winter on cold nights.

I take the approach of making the bike visible. Two lights on rear in case of failure. Dynamo light on front with backup be seen battery light. I have mudguards on my bike. 3M do highly reflective tape in orange, black, white , red etc. It meets the British standards on reflectives as long as you have enough surface area. The mudguard is a much bigger surface area than the rear reflectors you can buy.

I have a long strip of reflective red down rear mudguard. Mudflapd in flouro yellow with retro reflective black in middle. I use clipless pedals. I have orange reflective tape on the cranks which does same job as pedal reflectors. Front light also has a white reflector below it.

I will point out that most rear lights have more modes than steady or flashing. I have mine in a pattern that cycles through the multiple LEDs. The rear light is never completely off, at least one LED is lit as the pattern changes. It’s not just an on / off pattern that you’d call a flash.

I want to wear normal clothing when out on bike. Hope off it into pub etc with no undressing ceremony. Make the bike visible wear what you like.

If I’m on a long audax that involves riding through the entire night. I will wear a high viz gilet. Half of that is about the extra warmth it brings doubling up as a wind proof layer. But otherwise it sits in my rear bag. To be deployed if I’m off the bike at night and walking in road due to a mechanical or other reason etc

As mentioned up. Defensive cycling and awareness is by far the best protection once you’ve done the basics required by law.




.


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## RoadRider400 (25 Sep 2021)

As has been said before you need something that catches the drivers attention. My main concern is drivers approaching from behind because they will be closer than drivers on the otherside and I cannot see what they are doing. For that reason in the winter I tend to use two good quality rear lights one static and one flashing. Reflectors are all well and good but I would not rely on them as the primary attention grabber. I still notice plenty of drivers not switching their lights on at dawn or dusk and if reflectors have nothing to reflect they will not be much use.


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## neil_merseyside (26 Sep 2021)

C R said:


> The pedals are "buried" in the sole of my shoe when riding, so no amount of reflective tape is going to make them visible.


Plenty of crank to put yellow reflective tape on though. I have it around the ends of the crank and a loop just above the pedal threads, so it can be seen from the sides and front and rear.


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## cougie uk (26 Sep 2021)

Mike_P said:


> I've seen that relationship between bicycle and shade, driving in a queue of traffic on an A road which was jittery in its speed. The cause transpired to be a nearly invisible cyclist hidden by dark clothing in the shade, drivers braking because they had not seen the cyclist earlier then pulling out to overtake rather than just pulling out



I've actually ridden past my riding pal before now without seeing him.
We'd leave at the same time and ride towards each other and then he'd u turn to ride with me. 

Winter's day. Dull. He's riding under trees all in black. No lights. I was looking for him and didn't see him.
Took him ages to catch me up. 
Next week he had a fluo yellow gilet and lights on.


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## tripletail52 (26 Sep 2021)

I like to obsessively look back over my shoulder when I hear a car approaching from behind. A human face seems to be pretty effective at catching the driver's attention against the backdrop of cars and roads.


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## freiston (26 Sep 2021)

tripletail52 said:


> I like to obsessively look back over my shoulder when I hear a car approaching from behind. A human face seems to be pretty effective at catching the driver's attention against the backdrop of cars and roads.


Maybe a photo of a face on the back of your jacket would be more effective than hi-viz and reflective material? 😉


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## Mike_P (27 Sep 2021)

tripletail52 said:


> I like to obsessively look back over my shoulder when I hear a car approaching from behind.


Not sure on that, with the amount of pot holes and dodgy road surfaces the least time looking backwards is on my book safer.


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## sasquath (27 Sep 2021)

freiston said:


> Maybe a photo of a face on the back of your jacket would be more effective than hi-viz and reflective material? 😉


Some beachwear models of both sexes will catch even more attention


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## mustang1 (27 Sep 2021)

eeheeheebike said:


> So 0
> 
> As the night closes in sooner every passing day, the leaves are falling and the freaky night cyclists emerge from the depths (me included!)...
> 
> ...


See above in italics.


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## Arjimlad (27 Sep 2021)

tripletail52 said:


> I like to obsessively look back over my shoulder when I hear a car approaching from behind. A human face seems to be pretty effective at catching the driver's attention against the backdrop of cars and roads.



People look out for cyclists looking over their shoulders, as they anticipate you may be wanting to change direction. 

Shoulder checking at pinch points leads to fewer close passes & more drivers holding back in my experience. As does taking primary, of course. 

When I'm approaching a right turn, my frequent shoulder checks lead many drivers to wait & allow me to move out some time before I've signalled.


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## ebikeerwidnes (27 Sep 2021)

I was looking at my bike yesterday and I think I will be getting some reflective tape for the mudguard and a few other places
Might stick a few bits on my helmet as well - and shoes if it will stick and stay there

Is there any research as to what colour is best??


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## matticus (27 Sep 2021)

tripletail52 said:


> I like to obsessively look back over my shoulder when I hear a car approaching from behind. A human face seems to be pretty effective at catching the driver's attention against the backdrop of cars and roads.





Arjimlad said:


> People look out for cyclists looking over their shoulders, as they anticipate you may be wanting to change direction.


I think there's truth in both these - and it may be down to subconscious thinking/behaviour:
- maybe we react more strongly to a human face than anything else (except perhaps predators!); more than trees, signs, brake lights ...
- maybe we read the look over the shoulder instinctively, as another human who is about to do something, or just a human that plans to interact with us in some way.

Whatever: I don't know if there's any science in this, but it is supported by own experience


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## Blue Hills (27 Sep 2021)

yep - human contact - I quite often look at drivers maybe thinking of coming out of a side road, look them in the eye and shake my head.


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## T4tomo (27 Sep 2021)

matticus said:


> Well it's not the opposite, is it??
> 
> Perhaps we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Some of us will no doubt continue to wave our arms around, and I doubt that many catastrophes will result 👍


Indeed, when I occasionally cock my hand from the wrist a bit in the turning right position, to make it more visisble. Hopefully conforms with teh pedants view of what is a turn signal


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## Hover Fly (27 Sep 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Did the driver get prosecuted for defective lighting as well as careless or dangerous driving?


Was that far back I can’t remember, it was of those country tweed wearing types that got run over and the driver was a nurse on the way to work and from all accounts went to pieces over it.


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## classic33 (27 Sep 2021)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> I was looking at my bike yesterday and I think I will be getting some reflective tape for the mudguard and a few other places
> Might stick a few bits on my helmet as well - and shoes if it will stick and stay there
> 
> Is there any research as to what colour is best??


Legal requirements would come before colour, when attaching to the bike.


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## cougie uk (27 Sep 2021)

classic33 said:


> Legal requirements would come before colour, when attaching to the bike.


What legal requirements for reflective tape is there ?

I've never heard of any. 

Personally I'd rather be visible than 'legal'.

White reflectives are the brightest and as we've said - put it on the moving parts. Pedals, cranks, legs etc. Wheels for side on vision.


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## Alex321 (27 Sep 2021)

cougie uk said:


> What legal requirements for reflective tape is there ?
> 
> I've never heard of any.
> 
> ...



On bicycles, it is illegal to have any colour lamp or reflector other than red to the rear, with the exception of pedal reflectors which should be amber.

There is a legal requirement for rear reflectors on bikes to be fitted, red, and carry an appropriate approval mark, so nothing you can add as reflective tape will meet that requirement, but if it is red, then it won't be illegal in itself, it just won't make the bike legal.

Any front reflectors must be white, and any side reflectors must be amber to comply with the law.


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## freiston (27 Sep 2021)

cougie uk said:


> What legal requirements for reflective tape is there ?
> 
> I've never heard of any.
> 
> ...


If I've got the current regulations (The Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989 No.1796 PART II Regulation 11) right and I'm understanding them correctly, then such reflective tape (when ancillary to rather than in place of obligatory lights and reflectors) is excepted from the requirement to show red at the back (and not show red at the front) *but only if it is designed primarily to reflect light to one or both sides of the vehicle* - so if it is designed to primarily reflect light to the front or the rear, it would not be explicitly excepted:


> (1) No vehicle shall be fitted with a lamp which is capable of showing a red light to the front, except–
> 
> (c)retro reflective material or a retro reflector designed primarily to reflect light to one or both sides of the vehicle and attached to or incorporated in any wheel or tyre of–​​(i)a pedal cycle and any sidecar attached to it;​
> 
> ...


​EDIT:- On reading that again, the exception only applies if the reflective material is attached to or incorporated into the wheel or tyre, in which case all reflective tape attached to the bike should be red to the rear and white to the front, in my understanding of it.


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## Alex321 (27 Sep 2021)

freiston said:


> If I've got the current regulations (The Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989 No.1796 PART II Regulation 11) right and I'm understanding them correctly, then such reflective tape (when ancillary to rather than in place of obligatory lights and reflectors) is excepted from the requirement to show red at the back (and not show red at the front) *but only if it is designed primarily to reflect light to one or both sides of the vehicle* - so if it is designed to primarily reflect light to the front or the rear, it would not be explicitly excepted:
> 
> ​EDIT:- On reading that again, the exception only applies if the reflective material is attached to or incorporated into the wheel or tyre, in which case all reflective tape attached to the bike should be red to the rear and white to the front, in my understanding of it.


Yep. That is how I understand it too. I think that exception is there so that if you turn the wheel so the side of it can be seen from the rear and/or front, it doesn't suddenly become illegal for being amber. Any other side reflectors should never be visible from front or rear.


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## sasquath (27 Sep 2021)

Alex321 said:


> Yep. That is how I understand it too. I think that exception is there so that if you turn the wheel so the side of it can be seen from the rear and/or front, it doesn't suddenly become illegal for being amber. Any other side reflectors should never be visible from front or rear.


Are white reflective stripes on marathon tyres illegal then? Being white.


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## freiston (27 Sep 2021)

sasquath said:


> Are white reflective stripes on marathon tyres illegal then? Being white.


No, because they are explicitly excepted as per the regulation above:
(edited to read) "No vehicle shall be fitted with a lamp which is capable of showing any light to the rear, other than a red light, *except– reflected light of any colour from retro reflective material or a retro reflector designed primarily to reflect light to one or both sides of the vehicle and attached to or incorporated in any wheel or tyre of a pedal cycle*"


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## Richard A Thackeray (27 Sep 2021)

MY CGR commuter/do it all, has;
- 4 x lights on the bars, 4 x on the rear (2 x seat-pin, 2 x seat-stays)
front & rear reflectors
- Reflective mud-flaps (f & r) coated with the same finish/reflectivity of the stripes of a hi-viz coat
- Schwalbe Marathons, with reflective sidewalls
- Spoke reflectors
- various blue & yellow bands on the frame (& some on my helmet too)
- 'snappies' used (ankle & wrists)

Once the clocks go back, & I'm finishing at 17:00, or 18:00, the _'360'_ jacket will come out again
By that, I mean a fully coated jacket, mine's a Boardman, but it's the same coating as the Proviz items































Nice. low down reflective surface - the first thing a vehicle headlight catches, & they 'flash;, due to movement


















And still I get cut up/close-passes/chumps who have GOT to be on that roundbout as I'm going round it


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## Alex321 (27 Sep 2021)

sasquath said:


> Are white reflective stripes on marathon tyres illegal then? Being white.


I was wrong about side reflectors on a bike being required to be amber. They can be any colour.

They have to be amber on anything other than pedal cycles, motor bikes or invalid carriages.


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## Biker man (27 Sep 2021)

eeheeheebike said:


> So 0
> 
> As the night closes in sooner every passing day, the leaves are falling and the freaky night cyclists emerge from the depths (me included!)...
> 
> ...


I won't say you are wrong but I think anything that helps you to stay safe gets my vote .If you were not wearing hi viz and you did have a accident the insurance company would pick up on it.


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## Oldhippy (27 Sep 2021)

Front light, back light, reflector on rack works for me nothing else required.


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## kayakerles (27 Sep 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Proviz is shoot. I have a hat made out of it. Even that makes my head sweat and it only gets used in winter on cold nights.
> 
> I take the approach of making the bike visible. Two lights on rear in case of failure. Dynamo light on front with backup be seen battery light. I have mudguards on my bike. 3M do highly reflective tape in orange, black, white , red etc. It meets the British standards on reflectives as long as you have enough surface area. The mudguard is a much bigger surface area than the rear reflectors you can buy.
> 
> ...


I love the look of the red strip down the mudguard, Ming, but back in the day of riding motorcycles, a friend came with me when I was going to buy some new gear. Debating between a bright yellow or a bright red motorcycle jacket, my friend who is colorblind noted, if that is red, it's just mud brown to me. That settled my choice.

Then I read on the subject, “Colour (color) blindness (colour vision deficiency, or CVD) affects approximately 1 in 12 men (8%) and 1 in 200 women in the world. In Britain this means that there are approximately 3 million colour blind people (about 4.5% of the entire population), most of whom are male.” Colorblind Awareness Org. News to me.

As for my safety precautions:
White light on front of my bike
Neon yellow bike *elmet
Red blinky light on back of *elmet
Highway certified reflective gilet that fits over whatever I wear, for both cold or hot weather or in between

I like the idea of reflective strips of tape on the cranks.
But to each his/her own. Everyone likes/justifies their own thing.
TOTALLY AGREE Defensive cycling and awareness is by far the best protection once you’ve done the basics required by law.

I grew up riding my 10-speed Peugeot UO-8 in NYC during my teens/20s long before anyone cared about lights, reflective clothing or *elmets at all, and I am still alive to talk about it thanks to defensive riding.


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## biggs682 (28 Sep 2021)

Proviz jacket with a flashing rear light positioned just between the shoulder blades and then another attached to the seat post area .
And on the front using a Chilli front light on mid setting and a flashing light as well .
Ride single file and just be sensible


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## neil_merseyside (28 Sep 2021)

biggs682 said:


> Proviz jacket with a flashing rear light positioned just between the shoulder blades and then another attached to the seat post area .
> And on the front using a Chilli front light on mid setting and a flashing light as well .
> Ride single file and just be sensible


Single file encourages close passes unless in primary, if in primary you may as well have a mate on the inside with their extra light, that twin head/rear light view might just make a moton think you are a car and act a bit better...


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## matticus (28 Sep 2021)

kayakerles said:


> Debating between a bright yellow or a bright red motorcycle jacket, my friend who is colorblind noted, if that is red, it's just mud brown to me. That settled my choice.
> 
> Then I read on the subject, “Colour (color) blindness (colour vision deficiency, or CVD) affects approximately 1 in 12 men (8%) and 1 in 200 women in the world. In Britain this means that there are approximately 3 million colour blind people (about 4.5% of the entire population), most of whom are male.” Colorblind Awareness Org. News to me.


Being colour-blind myself, I've been aware of the issues since a teenager:

but if the above is true, do you think we can see red rear LIGHTS? Or are they invisible to 5% of road users (along with red traffic lights).


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## Ming the Merciless (28 Sep 2021)

kayakerles said:


> I love the look of the red strip down the mudguard, Ming, but back in the day of riding motorcycles, a friend came with me when I was going to buy some new gear. Debating between a bright yellow or a bright red motorcycle jacket, my friend who is colorblind noted, if that is red, it's just mud brown to me. That settled my choice.



Its reflective and it must be red at the rear by law. Same as red lights, red reflectors etc. It’s not about how it appears in day time but more when it reflects light at night.


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## sasquath (28 Sep 2021)

neil_merseyside said:


> Single file encourages close passes unless in primary, if in primary you may as well have a mate on the inside with their extra light, that twin head/rear light view might just make a moton think you are a car and act a bit better...


Generally agree.There are places where single file allows safe overtake in the same lane. And there are places where 2 abreast will force close pass no matter how carefull the driver is. I have it all on 5.5mile commute



matticus said:


> Being colour-blind myself, I've been aware of the issues since a teenager:
> 
> but if the above is true, do you think we can see red rear LIGHTS? Or are they invisible to 5% of road users (along with red traffic lights).


 I'm guessing you see the light but looks just like green one?


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## Alex321 (28 Sep 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Its reflective and it must be red at the rear by law. Same as red lights, red reflectors etc. It’s not about how it appears in day time but more when it reflects light at night.


I don't think that is true of clothing, only of things attached to the vehicle?


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## Ming the Merciless (28 Sep 2021)

sasquath said:


> And there are places where 2 abreast will force close pass no matter how carefull the driver is. I have it all on 5.5mile commute



Whoa there. No careful driver will ever be “forced” into a close pass. It’s a choice a driver makes not something forced on them.

If drivers are close passing you on your 5.5 mile cycle commute. They are not being careful.


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## Ming the Merciless (28 Sep 2021)

Alex321 said:


> I don't think that is true of clothing, only of things attached to the vehicle?



Colour blindness is different depending on whether it’s clothing or attached to vehicle. Who knew?


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## Alex321 (28 Sep 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Colour blindness is different depending on whether it’s clothing or attached to vehicle. Who knew?


Neither your post nor my response had anything to do with colour blindness.

You were stating that it was required by law to be red, and that is what I was responding to.


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## sasquath (28 Sep 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Whoa there. No careful driver will ever be “forced” into a close pass. It’s a choice a driver makes not something forced on them.


Sorry, but if someone is riding 2 abreast on a road so narrow that overtake physically can't be done with gap big enough then we have peanuts on bikes. Junctions, and short sections by isles etc are excluded.


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## matticus (28 Sep 2021)

@Alex321 @Ming the Merciless : I think the same post talked about reflector colour AND motorbike jacket colour!
(and also colour blindness)

Cool your engines!


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## neil_merseyside (28 Sep 2021)

sasquath said:


> Generally agree. There are places where single file allows safe overtake in the same lane. And there are places where 2 abreast will force close pass no matter how carefull the driver is. I have it all on 5.5mile commute


I doubt there exists a single lane anywhere that a driver can pass a cyclist at the required 1.5m clearance actually in the same lane, and if a driver can't pass with 1.5m clear (in lane, opposite carriageway wherever) then they shouldn't attempt to pass, and you need to stop it as at the first sign of danger to their steel cage they will just grate you against the nearest hedge/tree/whatever. If needs be you need to ride further out to stop them squeezing you - they will kill you accidentally squeezing by and getting it wrong (though it isn't an accident it's bad driving).


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## Ming the Merciless (28 Sep 2021)

sasquath said:


> Sorry, but if someone is riding 2 abreast on a road so narrow that overtake physically can't be done with gap big enough then we have peanuts on bikes. Junctions, and short sections by isles etc are excluded.



And what about the peanuts driving two abreast? If the cyclists are two abreast there’s a reason and any overtake should proceed with caution or just accept it is not a suitable place to overtake and you’ll have to wait. A careful driver would understand that and stay behind till safe to pass.


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## kayakerles (28 Sep 2021)

Richard A Thackeray said:


> MY CGR commuter/do it all, has;
> - 4 x lights on the bars, 4 x on the rear (2 x seat-pin, 2 x seat-stays)
> front & rear reflectors
> - Reflective mud-flaps (f & r) coated with the same finish/reflectivity of the stripes of a hi-viz coat
> ...


Yeah, Rich, I think most would agree you're “Lit.”  I never saw reflective black before. That's cool! No reflective tape on those spinning cranks? You might not be seen.


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## kayakerles (28 Sep 2021)

matticus said:


> Being colour-blind myself, I've been aware of the issues since a teenager:
> 
> but if the above is true, do you think we can see red rear LIGHTS? Or are they invisible to 5% of road users (along with red traffic lights).


Interesting points, Atticus and Ming (Santa?) My colorblind friend I mentioned before said green & red stoplights look about the same to him, I think he said the yellow looked grey.

It makes sense, Ming, that “It’s not about how it appears in day time but more when it reflects light at night.” FWIW, the red does look catchy too.


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## Ming the Merciless (28 Sep 2021)

kayakerles said:


> Interesting points, Atticus and Ming (Santa?) My colorblind friend I mentioned before said green & red stoplights look about the same to him, I think he said the yellow looked grey.
> 
> It makes sense, Ming, that “It’s not about how it appears in day time but more when it reflects light at night.” FWIW, the red does look catchy too.



We have a joke that Christmas gets earlier and earlier each year in the UK. Mostly because the stock and adverts often start to appear in October. Hence my avatar has been updated early for Christmas. I’ll be merciless again once Christmas is done


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## Ming the Merciless (28 Sep 2021)

And a Christmas perfume advert has just turned up on telly!😂🤣


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## matticus (29 Sep 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> We have a joke that Christmas gets earlier and earlier each year in the UK. Mostly because the stock and adverts often start to appear in October.


/further-offtopic-diversion
It's kinda weird that this is happening in the same era that "proper " winter weather is coming later and later. Christmas Day is now around the start of the poorer weather (as well as the sign of days getting longer), and gets less snow than Easter Day does!


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## cougie uk (29 Sep 2021)

Oldhippy said:


> Front light, back light, reflector on rack works for me nothing else required.


Pedal reflectors make a huge impact at night. 

I've seen many people riding with dim backlights or even better - the tail of their coat hanging down over the light - or a basket blocking the light. 
People eh ?


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## Oldhippy (29 Sep 2021)

Hold your line in traffic, you have every right to be there. Incredibly unlikely they will run you down. If they cannot get by and the road


cougie uk said:


> Pedal reflectors make a huge impact at night.
> 
> I've seen many people riding with dim backlights or even better - the tail of their coat hanging down over the light - or a basket blocking the light.
> People eh ?


Seems a bit silly that someone wouldn't consider coats, baskets covering the lights. I have mine at the end of the rack where nothing can cover it. There are pedal reflectors too but covered by walking boots I'd think.


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## sasquath (29 Sep 2021)

Oldhippy said:


> There are pedal reflectors too but covered by walking boots I'd think.


Naah, they are visible even when riding in huge winter boots, unless you are heel down, pedal in the middle of the foot kinda rider


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## Oldhippy (29 Sep 2021)

I've never thought about pedal reflectors to be honest until someone mentioned they were there. Riding is riding for me but sometimes it's dark and I put lights on. That is as much as I've thought on it in thirty plus years of riding a bike.


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## classic33 (29 Sep 2021)

kayakerles said:


> Yeah, Rich, I think most would agree you're “Lit.”  I never saw reflective black before. That's cool! No reflective tape on those spinning cranks? You might not be seen.


What are the rules/regulations on reflectors over that side of the pond?


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## cougie uk (29 Sep 2021)

Oldhippy said:


> I've never thought about pedal reflectors to be honest until someone mentioned they were there. Riding is riding for me but sometimes it's dark and I put lights on. That is as much as I've thought on it in thirty plus years of riding a bike.



I've seen a bloke on a bike on an unlit dual carriageway at night from 100s of meters away. 
He was all in black. No lights. But he did have proper reflectors. It was the only way I would have seen him in time. 

Absolute disregard for his own life but the pedal reflectors were astonishingly good. 

I'd never dream of riding a 70mph road like that with so little safety kit.


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## biggs682 (30 Sep 2021)

What about reflective bands on tyre's ? 

These are schwalbe marathons and they are reflective ok , sure won't help being seen from front or rear but sideways on .


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## sasquath (30 Sep 2021)

biggs682 said:


> What about reflective bands on tyre's ?
> 
> These are schwalbe marathons and they are reflective ok , sure won't help being seen from front or rear but sideways on .
> 
> View attachment 611482


They're good, but wear out with time. No idea how oln my marathon is(came with second hand bike) and is barely reflective.


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## biggs682 (30 Sep 2021)

sasquath said:


> They're good, but wear out with time.


As does everything else


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## Alex321 (30 Sep 2021)

biggs682 said:


> What about reflective bands on tyre's ?
> 
> These are schwalbe marathons and they are reflective ok , sure won't help being seen from front or rear but sideways on .


Always helps. 

And side reflectors on the wheels or tyres are legally allowed to be any colour.


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## glasgowcyclist (30 Sep 2021)

Richard A Thackeray said:


> View attachment 611171



That diagram isn't really applicable to what a cyclist ought to wear during the hours of darkness since they'd be seen from a greater distance with proper lights (and/or reflectors) fitted. Good idea for walkers though.


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## Richard A Thackeray (30 Sep 2021)

glasgowcyclist said:


> That diagram isn't really applicable to what a cyclist ought to wear during the hours of darkness since they'd be seen from a greater distance with proper lights (and/or reflectors) fitted. Good idea for walkers though.


I think l initially found it on a runners site/forum
It’s a good reminder though, concerning reflectivity


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## matticus (30 Sep 2021)

Richard A Thackeray said:


> I think l initially found it on a runners site/forum
> It’s a good reminder though, concerning reflectivity


But not very representative of the situation for cyclists.


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## cougie uk (30 Sep 2021)

sasquath said:


> They're good, but wear out with time. No idea how oln my marathon is(came with second hand bike) and is barely reflective.


Have you cleaned them ? Nothing should be wearing the reflective band out on the tyres ?


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## Ming the Merciless (30 Sep 2021)

cougie uk said:


> Have you cleaned them ? Nothing should be wearing the reflective band out on the tyres ?



Could be a covering of brake dust from rim brakes


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## sasquath (30 Sep 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Could be a covering of brake dust from rim brakes


Disc brakes, tyre sidewal flexes and reflective paint flakes/crumbles away. Especially when ridden at lower pressures. It's a nice feature of decent tyre, but rim tape will last longer.


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## Ming the Merciless (30 Sep 2021)

sasquath said:


> Disc brakes, tyre sidewal flexes and reflective paint flakes/crumbles away. Especially when ridden at lower pressures. It's a nice feature of decent tyre, but rim tape will last longer.



What’s rim tape got to do with anything?


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## sasquath (30 Sep 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> What’s rim tape got to do with anything?


Provides same reflective area as tyre reflective band but wears slower if at all. like this one


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## freiston (30 Sep 2021)

sasquath said:


> Provides same reflective area as tyre reflective band but wears slower if at all. like this one


You got the edit in just before I hit the reply button - almost caught me out 😉
That's not what most people understand by "rim tape" -  this is what I thought you meant. They really ought to come up with a different name for the reflective stuff


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## richmace (30 Sep 2021)

Most of my commute is down dedicated cycle paths, so my main objective is to be seen by other cyclists and pedestrians.

I wear a reflective yellow coat and have a reflective yellow rucksack cover.

My bike has a red flashing light at the rear, and a white flashing light (pointing slightly downwards) at the front.

I do wish pedestrians would consider lights (some do), as a pedestrian wearing dark colours is virtually invisible on an unlit cycle path.

For me, I take the attitude of being seen.

I see flashing lights much more than static ones, and I prefer to see yellow or orange reflective clothing than white. Yellow is the standard hi-vis colour that we are all accustomed to.

I don’t like extremely bright front lights (especially pointing upwards) they make visibility difficult for oncoming bikes (can cause accidents). You only need just enough light to see the way (and to be seen).

I like the ideas of reflective areas on the bike, I will implement some of those ideas as they make perfect sense.


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## freiston (30 Sep 2021)

My experience of flashing lights (especially front lights) is that as visible as they are, they "confuse" the situation, making it harder to work out what's what (for example, distance and speed). I often find the front ones uncomfortably bright and dazzling too, and hard not to get fixated on.


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## sasquath (30 Sep 2021)

freiston said:


> You got the edit in just before I hit the reply button - almost caught me out 😉
> That's not what most people understand by "rim tape" -  this is what I thought you meant. They really ought to come up with a different name for the reflective stuff


agree, my bad, rim tape for motorcyclist(modern cast wheels) means only one thing



freiston said:


> My experience of flashing lights (especially front lights) is that as visible as they are, they "confuse" the situation, making it harder to work out what's what (for example, distance and speed). I often find the front ones uncomfortably bright and dazzling too, and hard not to get fixated on.


Flashing front light is meant to differentiate dim(by comparison) bike light from the background of car headlights, on cycle paths and empty country lanes serves no purpose.


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## kayakerles (1 Oct 2021)

classic33 said:


> What are the rules/regulations on reflectors over that side of the pond?


Sorry, Classic, I don’t know but I will look into it and come back. I haven’t really used any reflectors since I was a kid. I feel much safer relying on lights, front and back. But I see there is quite a bit of support here and enthusiasm for reflectors. Something to consider.


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## classic33 (1 Oct 2021)

kayakerles said:


> Sorry, Classic, I don’t know but I will look into it and come back. I haven’t really used any reflectors since I was a kid. I feel much safer relying on lights, front and back. But I see there is quite a bit of support here and enthusiasm for reflectors. Something to consider.


Just wondering what the requirements were elsewhere.

I feel safer myself with lights fitted and working, as opposed to relying on reflectors/reflective materials on their own.


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## sasquath (1 Oct 2021)

classic33 said:


> Just wondering what the requirements were elsewhere.
> 
> I feel safer myself with lights fitted and working, as opposed to relying on reflectors/reflective materials on their own.


Lights can run out of juice or fail, reflector cover your ass when that happens.


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## Ming the Merciless (1 Oct 2021)

sasquath said:


> Provides same reflective area as tyre reflective band but wears slower if at all. like this one



Rim tape goes inside the rim over spoke holes. If you can see rim tape means the tyre is no longer mounted.


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## kayakerles (3 Oct 2021)

classic33 said:


> Just wondering what the requirements were elsewhere.
> 
> I feel safer myself with lights fitted and working, as opposed to relying on reflectors/reflective materials on their own.


Classic, when it comes to Standards in the U.S., they can go on forever.

Here's a simple pic. Don't follow the following links unless you've had a good bit of coffee and are a SPEED-READER!





I bet not ONE bike rider EVER read any of this. Never EVER been stopped for any bike rule breaking, either. Take a peek:
https://www.cpsc.gov/content/bicycle-requirements-business-guidance

and…

*U.S.requirements for bicycles?*
The U.S. requirements are in the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) in https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-16/chapter-II/subchapter-C/part-1512?toc=1

As for me, lights front & back, recharged at least every other day, Reflective gilet over whatever else I am wearing.


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## Saluki (3 Oct 2021)

I have good lights front and back and, now, a little helmet light as country roads are dark. I have my Boardman reflective (space turnip) jacket, which I can wear as a gilet or jacket. It’s well vented so not too boil-in-the-bag. I take spare lights too. Small flasher on the front, couple of small flashers on the rear as well as my usual light. The heels of my winter boots are reflective as are bits on my gloves.

I need a new lid and was thinking of one of the PX reflect ones.


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## gbb (3 Oct 2021)

One thing i distinctly and clearky remember....
Driving out if town one night some years ago, unlit road....my headlights caught the reflectives of a cyclist waaaay wayyy out in the distance, maybe 1/2 mile away...in the absolute pitch black shone someones refective strips, giving me more than enough advanced warning someone was out there on a bike (could have been a pedestrian, doesn't matter)


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## classic33 (3 Oct 2021)

kayakerles said:


> Classic, when it comes to Standards in the U.S., they can go on forever.
> 
> Here's a simple pic. Don't follow the following links unless you've had a good bit of coffee and are a SPEED-READER!
> View attachment 611989
> ...


Seems much the same as over here, reflector wise.


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