# Do you cycle for or at least partly for Enviromental reasons ?



## BADGER.BRAD (31 Dec 2018)

I would have to say partly for my answers,I now cycle for many reasons, I started serious cycling for cost reasons as a student ( about 30 years ago but then realized how much I enjoyed it, but now it's a mix of Mental/ physical health benefits, cost, environmental and the fact I love being outside.I do own a small motorcycle which I very rarely use and a car as well.


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## jefmcg (31 Dec 2018)

No. I gave up my car for environmental reasons, I cycle to get places.


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## Ming the Merciless (31 Dec 2018)

Not really. I am a lifelong cyclist and just love being on the bike. I use the bike where I can but I do not for instance load up the panniers and do multiple food shops with panniers. Mostly though I move around locally by bike. I do roughly twice as much mileage on the bike as car with the car being used for trips away, visits to distant relatives.

I do get frustrated with how hard it can be to take your bike with you on the train at times. There are trips I would do by bike and train instead of car if there was some joined up thinking in that area.

I used about a tank of fuel once every 8 weeks


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## Globalti (31 Dec 2018)

Nope. I ride a bike made from plastics and alloys, the production of which pollutes at every stage of the process so I'm not conceited or deluded enough to pretend my bike is environmentally sound.


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## SkipdiverJohn (31 Dec 2018)

Thinking about it, I suppose there's four reasons why I sometimes ride a bike rather than use a different form of transport.
1) It's enjoyable, so long as the weather is half decent anyway.
2) I get more exercise than I would otherwise, which allows me to eat and drink what I really like, and not rabbit food.
3) Convenience, it's door-to-door and can be the quickest way of going relatively short distances.
4) The cost of cycling is bugger all, at least it is the way I do it. Run cheap hack bikes, recycled donor parts, DIY maintenance.

Saving the planet doesn't even come into it. I couldn't care less about global warming, emissions etc.


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## Smokin Joe (31 Dec 2018)

I cycle only because I enjoy riding a bike. I don't even cycle for fitness now, although obviously when I raced I trained to get fit for racing.

The fitness cycling brings is a nice by product of riding a bike.


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## NorthernDave (31 Dec 2018)

No.

I ride the bike because I enjoy it, for the exercise and because it's (marginally) cheaper than therapy.

I do virtually zero utility cycling as none of my bikes are suited to it and I wouldn't leave them unattended anywhere for any length of time, no matter how good the locks or insurance.


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## Jimidh (31 Dec 2018)

No I ride my bikes because I love riding bikes.

I also drive a diesel 4x4 and love eating meat and taking foreign holidays so i’m no eco-warrior.

I do sort out my recycling though!!


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## flake99please (31 Dec 2018)

I sold my car as it wasn’t being used enough to warrant the cost of ownership (sub 1000 miles per year). 

I commute to work because it’s quicker to do so, than to walk to the bus stop that I would need to get to work. 

I cycle (out of work hours) purely for my enjoyment. I haven’t given the environmental aspect of my cycling any consideration whatsoever.


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## Banjo (31 Dec 2018)

Globalti said:


> Nope. I ride a bike made from plastics and alloys, the production of which pollutes at every stage of the process so I'm not conceited or deluded enough to pretend my bike is environmentally sound.


In comparison to a car a bike is extremely environmentally friendly ,I don't follow the conceited /deluded bit at all.


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## cosmicbike (31 Dec 2018)

I tell myself it's partly a green thing, but really it's a money saver. But that doesn't work either since I keep spending money on bikes and bike bits. So I do it to keep fit, keep the legs working, and so that I can eat whatever I like and not worry about it.


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## Ming the Merciless (31 Dec 2018)

Banjo said:


> In comparison to a car a bike is extremely environmentally friendly ,I don't follow the conceited /deluded bit at all.



I read somewhere that the carbon footprint of manufacturing a bike is approximately the carbon footprint of commuting by car for four weeks. I also read that approx half the carbon footprint of a car is in its manufacture.


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## gavroche (31 Dec 2018)

I am a fair weather cyclist so I need my car and never feel guilty about using it.


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## lane (31 Dec 2018)

Cycling is a hobby. I enjoy it and it keeps me fitter than if I didn't do it. There is a social aspect as well.


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## classic33 (31 Dec 2018)

Never allowed to drive, so I've two feet or two wheels for getting somewhere I want to go. I've gone from two, to three, one, and now four wheels and pedal power for getting around.

That and to prove to those who said it'd be impossible wrong.


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## Julia9054 (31 Dec 2018)

No - happy side effect. I cycle cos it makes me happy and gets me to places. Also I loath driving and I'm a bit crap at it. Keep the car because there are certain bits of my life which would be impossible without it.


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## ianrauk (31 Dec 2018)

Jimidh said:


> No I ride my bikes because I love riding bikes.



This....In spades


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## Ming the Merciless (31 Dec 2018)

Some more analysis

A fully loaded bus is responsible for 2.6-times the carbon emissions total of a bicycle per passenger mile. But the night and weekend service ruins the bus’s overall environmental credentials. Off-peak buses account for more than 20 times as many greenhouse gases as a bicycle. 

From

https://slate.com/technology/2011/08/how-soon-does-a-bike-pay-back-its-initial-carbon-footprint.html


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## classic33 (31 Dec 2018)

YukonBoy said:


> Some more analysis
> 
> A fully loaded bus is responsible for 2.6-times the carbon emissions total of a bicycle per passenger mile. But the night and weekend service ruins the bus’s overall environmental credentials. Off-peak buses account for more than 20 times as many greenhouse gases as a bicycle.
> 
> ...


Not one of my cycles has had or got an exhaust fitted, so can't emit any gasses.


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## jayonabike (31 Dec 2018)

No not at all. I cycle to work as it’s less than 2 miles away. I cycle for enjoyment at weekends. I also drive a 3 litre bm and don’t feel guilty about it at all, in fact it puts a smile on my face every time I get behind the wheel.


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## Pat "5mph" (31 Dec 2018)

No.
My main reason for cycling is to go places: I hate driving, I'm also very bad at it.
Cycling gets me where I want to be faster and cheaper than public transport.
I like the social aspect too: through group riding I have met many new friends, been to places I would otherwise never have seen.
I get bored in pubs and don't drink alcohol, if it wasn't for the group rides I would never socialize.


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## Drago (31 Dec 2018)

I use the bike over the car in all possible circumstances, for environmental reasons. I reformed and became very anti air pollution following the death of neighbours daughter from asthma, who I unsuccessfully gave CPR to. That kind of shizzle gives you a major recalibration.


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## Ming the Merciless (31 Dec 2018)

Drago said:


> I use the bike over the car in all possible circumstances, for environmental reasons. I reformed and became very anti air pollution following the death of neighbours daughter from asthma, who I unsuccessfully gave CPR to. That kind of shizzle gives you a major recalibration.



That must have been awful. I hate reading about the stunted lung development of children due to pollution. Cars have a place but more inter city than intra city. Approx 90% of short car trips could be replaced by walking and cycling. Many residential roads ought to be made one way to make those short trips a pain in the arse for the person in a car but easy by foot or bike.


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## HLaB (31 Dec 2018)

I started out cycling for the benefits to health, wealth, and the environment (local, global and personal), however I must admit its become more orientated to the personal benefits.


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## EltonFrog (31 Dec 2018)

No . When I cycle, which is not often it’s for fun, I sometimes do a utility ride to the shops on my bike but that is to save money and time. I doubt there’s a significant environmental saving in the cycling I do, and certainly not helped by the twenty five thousand miles a year driving I do.


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## subaqua (1 Jan 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> Not really. I am a lifelong cyclist and just love being on the bike. I use the bike where I can but I do not for instance load up the panniers and do multiple food shops with panniers. Mostly though I move around locally by bike. I do roughly twice as much mileage on the bike as car with the car being used for trips away, visits to distant relatives.
> 
> I do get frustrated with how hard it can be to take your bike with you on the train at times. There are trips I would do by bike and train instead of car if there was some joined up thinking in that area.
> 
> I used about a tank of fuel once every 8 weeks




This. 

It really winds me up you can book train tickets and a seat weeks in advance and not cycle space at same time. Yes GWR and Virgin this means you.


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## raleighnut (1 Jan 2019)

I stopped buying Petrol when it went over a quid a gallon, sold the motorbike and have only owned bikes since.


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## raleighnut (1 Jan 2019)

Oh and BTW my environmentalist credentials started in the mid 80s when I spent a year on the team turning disused ballast workings at Birstal/Wanlip into Watermead Country Park,


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## Blue Hills (1 Jan 2019)

Globalti said:


> Nope. I ride a bike made from plastics and alloys, the production of which pollutes at every stage of the process so I'm not conceited or deluded enough to pretend my bike is environmentally sound.


If you ride it instead of driving it is. And keep it running/give it away/pass it on rather than scrapping it for next year's model it is. Very little stuff has no environmental impact in its manufacture.


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## Alan O (1 Jan 2019)

Other than one summer when I was 17, I've never owned or driven a car, and cycling has never been an alternative to that. My commuter journeys over the years have always been by public transport or by bicycle. By bike because it's so much more pleasant, unless the weather is foul, or because there was no public transport. I spent a winter once living at Sandbanks in Poole (back in the days when you could rent an almost unheated holiday home for peanuts in the winter), and I had no option but to cycle to work as there were no buses outside of the summer season. One particularly miserable ride is still etched in my memory, when we'd had a rare heavy snowstorm and I was riding in heavy rain and howling wind the next day. But I digress.

I very much am an environmentalist and I'm very supportive of the use of bikes for that purpose, and that's to a large extent down to my having traveled a lot and seen so much of the natural beauty of the planet. The loss of Himalayan glaciers that provide so much of the dry season irrigation to parts of Northern India? I've trekked alongside the Khumbu glacier in Nepal, and its loss would be a tragedy.

Or the seasonal variations in the Tonlé Sap lake and river system in Cambodia, which is the result of an amazing natural cycle (seriously, check it out on Wikipedia), producing a fish resource that's essential in a poor and developing country. It could be destroyed by global warming and millions could lose a critical food source - just so rich people in the developed world can carry on driving their big cars. I've been there too, and my most endearing memory is of disarmingly friendly and welcoming people who have suffered a truly horrible recent history, but who are among the best people I've ever encountered.

The fertile north-eastern plateau of Thailand produces vast quantities of rice which feeds millions, and it's among the best quality rice in the world. But the essential rainy season is becoming increasingly erratic, and what used to be frequent double harvests are becoming rarer. It's a high-density food resource, and we can't afford to lose it. My wife of 30 years is from a long line of Thai rice farmers.

I could go on... but then I'm held back by the miles I've flown in the course of my travels, and my resulting feelings of hypocrisy. Long-distance high-altitude flying is especially damaging, and over the past 30 years I've averaged probably 2 or 3 such flights per year. So who am I to preach to others?


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## Bazzer (1 Jan 2019)

In my mind partly environmental, partly saving money when commuting and partly to keep healthy; blood pressure in particular. However living without a car would be extremely difficult for a number of reasons. 
I do also have some internal conflict on the environmental side, as my appetite is much greater when riding, otherwise I get too bony for Mrs B's liking.


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## EltonFrog (1 Jan 2019)

Wanna help the environment? Don’t breed.


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## graham bowers (1 Jan 2019)

Much of my local cycling is to avoid using the car, environmental reasons being one factor.


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## PaulSB (1 Jan 2019)

To answer the question - No. However I do enjoy the fact my hobby has very little impact on the environment........I realise we could have a whole debate about manufacturing, air miles etc..............but just cycling is virtually zero impact.

I ride for pleasure


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## galaxy (1 Jan 2019)

A bit of everything for me. If I could cycle more I would. I need a Van for work. I have other hobbies. I need a car. 
Like everything it’s all any moderation in my view. I could not be without a bike I know that


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## jefmcg (1 Jan 2019)

[QUOTE 5486677, member: 9609"]Big on the environment, but sadly my riding is far from carbon neutral - I drive an old diesel van to the beginning of nearly ever ride I do. probably out of about 100 mile riding last week, I would have drove about 70. Not good I know
Don't think I have ever saved a journey by cycling.
And all that riding just means I also consume very large amounts of food, and that's not good for the planet either.
And it will probably give me a long life, which means I will consume for even longer

my cycling = environmental negative
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE 5487072, member: 9609"]thats true, road accidents cause around 1.3 million deaths per year worldwide. Someone dies every 24 seconds on the road.
[..] 
cars are a catastrophe[/QUOTE]
You might want a doctor to have a looky see at that cognitive dissonance; I think it's becoming infected.


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## JPBoothy (1 Jan 2019)

Ha Ha, as long as you enjoy your rides you can always plant the occasional tree to please the eco Warriors


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## mcshroom (1 Jan 2019)

Only really in as much as the more I cycle, and the more friends I can persuade to cycle, the fewer cars we have clogging the roads; so the nicer the living environment is.

I cycle because I enjoy doing so, and also because it is often the most convenient way to get where I want to go


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## Smokin Joe (1 Jan 2019)

[QUOTE 5487244, member: 9609"]think its incurable, and the older I get the worse it is becoming. very few subjects can be seen in black and white, and the more I think about anything the worse it gets.

Yes I'm totally addicted to the motor vehicle whilst simultaneously hating them, cars are a catastrophe, we are destroying the planet with them. And today like most days I will be driving somewhere to hopefully cycle on roads with very few cars, because the roads close to me are far too busy with other people making pointless journeys like mine will be. I know it don't make any sense[/QUOTE]
We are destroying the planet because there are too many of us. Until we have the courage to face up to that and drastically restrict childbirth we are peeing in the wind. No use cutting carbon emissions by 10% per head if we increase our number by 20%.

I wouldn't worry over much though, we were never going to be a permanent fixture here. If we don't destroy ourselves in the meantime the Sun will take care of us eventually.


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## BADGER.BRAD (1 Jan 2019)

As an add on to my original comments and the fact cycling is cheap I like Skipdriverjohn run old bikes using the cheapest good quality parts and swap and reuse old parts to keep them going ,I have no interest at all in competitive cycling so it is a purely a cheap mode of transport that I enjoy,I leave the car at home for the wife to use which she very rarely does as she hates driving as much as I do (rather unfortunate as I've spent the past 20+ years as a HGV driver) I do use the car in order to get my pack of dogs and me out to some nice local locations where there are limited people ( I'm not a socialite) but not for shopping as I work apposite a super market. I work in the recycling industry but that in all honesty is a bit of a joke so no plus points there! I must admit due to illness last year I did very little cycling but it my New years resolution to get back on the bike a lot more.I in the 90's did spent quite a lot of time out with the Eco warriors and the New Age travellers but life put a stop to that.


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## Drago (1 Jan 2019)

BADGER.BRAD said:


> in the 90's did spent quite a lot of time out with the Eco warriors and the New Age travellers but life put a stop to that.



Ah, you were an officer with the Special Demonstration Squad.


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## Richard Fairhurst (1 Jan 2019)

Yes, but “environmental” in its wider sense - not just carbon/pollution, but also the improvement to the built and rural environment if more of us rode bikes and we could reduce/rethink roadspace.


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## mudsticks (1 Jan 2019)

Id love to be able to just cycle and train it everywhere, for all the good reasons - eco, pleasure. exercise, and cost. 

Unfortunately both my jobs require me to cart stuff about a lot of the time.

And i perceive myself as not having enough time - but i think really, i just waste it on the internet now .

But now I've got a new bike maybe i should get a trailer for it too ??

When i had young kids i used to cart them about all over the place by bike seat, and tag along, and do the shopping with panniers etc

I think, in truth I've just got a bit lazy.

I'm not one for NY resolutions - why set yourself up for failure at this already hard time of year - with some drear ambition such as losing weight - or giving stuff up.?


But i could buy into a more positive one - such as doing more functional trips by bike


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## Smokin Joe (1 Jan 2019)

Richard Fairhurst said:


> Yes, but “environmental” in its wider sense - not just carbon/pollution, but also the improvement to the built and rural environment if more of us rode bikes and we could reduce/rethink roadspace.


The problem here is that most people simply do not like cycling. They may all have a bike in the garage which they wheel out with the kids on a bank holiday trip over the park, but that's the end of it. They wouldn't dream of riding a bike for any other reason and are as beyond conversion as I would be to taking up ballet.


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## mudsticks (1 Jan 2019)

Smokin Joe said:


> We are destroying the planet because there are too many of us. Until we have the courage to face up to that and drastically restrict childbirth we are peeing in the wind. No use cutting carbon emissions by 10% per head if we increase our number by 20%.
> 
> I wouldn't worry over much though, we were never going to be a permanent fixture here. If we don't destroy ourselves in the meantime the Sun will take care of us eventually.



Definitely - empower women through education and genuine access to reproductive health services - so that having fewer children is a positive choice for them.

But there's still plenty of other things we can do to to live more equitably, and gratefully on this planet.
We as westerners consume so much more than those in the developing world, and they feel the effects of our actions far harder - doesn't seem fair really.

Copping out and saying in the long run we're all dead is a bit of ...... a cop out - imo.

Even if we can't totally reverse CC, or undo all the other sh*t we've done, I still believe we could do a lot more to let ourselves down more gracefully, and learn to conserve resources - share nicely and so on - i think we owe it to future inhabitants of Planet Earth - at least to try .

Ever hopeful - and HNY all


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## Drago (1 Jan 2019)

And it's not just the environmental issue. When the oil is gone, its gone- no more road fuel, no more plastics (although in some ways that may not be a bad thing), synthetic materials, asphalt. Large scale food production and distribution becomes impossible at the current state of the art when the oil has disappeared.

And the more we use, the greater dependence we have on foreign enregry sources, the worse our strategic position is in a time of international crisis. These reasons are also very compelling to me.

The reasons not to fritter it away are so vast and varied I'm further astonished at societies careless attitude to its use.


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## classic33 (1 Jan 2019)

raleighnut said:


> I stopped buying Petrol when it went over a quid a gallon, sold the motorbike and have only owned bikes since.


"Bilking" now then?


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## User66445 (1 Jan 2019)

Certainly partly, but often cycling on a terrible day turns to pleasure, plus vice versa on a good one - think being trapped behind a lorry that had tried to make a steep 45° bend and failed, without water on an unmade road next to a steep 600mdrop in Thailand at midday. The lack of a network for the portable the final straw ! That was day 1 of my tour.


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## Drago (1 Jan 2019)

[QUOTE 5487368, member: 9609"]the 2018 award for Cognitive Dissonance has to go the the Maldives Government; after spending 400 million dollars on a 2 mile sea level runway to cope with more and more of the worlds largest airliners that support their tourist industry - they then complain at the climate change conference that if the rest of the world does not reign it in a bit, then their islands (along with their new runway will flood) 

https://maldivesindependent.com/bus...gins-at-maldives-international-airport-136515
https://www.channelnewsasia.com/new...talk-cop24-global-warming-rising-sea-11029662[/QUOTE]

That'll be the climate change conference to which all the delegates flew in jet aircraft.


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## BADGER.BRAD (1 Jan 2019)

It's a sad case that the best thing for the planet would be a massive human disaster this would cure so many problems ! In the 90's as a Eco warrior I was an idealist then I slowly changed to being a realist as I realized that we as a species are either too unintelligent or too arrogant, we insist on sawing off the very branch we are sitting on ( and I'm not saying I'm any better !) As pointed out by Richard the cost to the environment because by the car is not just a pollution one, I could not imagine a better world were I could cycle to where ever I wanted to go without the fear of being killed by the same morons I see every day with faulty cars driving half asleep as fast as they can with their windows frosted up because as they do everyday they set out too late before they even start their journey. I saw a couple of videos recently which gave me at least a little hope

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-p30FJxoHA


and


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zq28fU2AuMU


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## KneesUp (1 Jan 2019)

We used to have two cars so we could both leave work at different times. But the cost (financial and environmental) of having a car that was used for a 6 mile round trip Monday to Friday and for the occasional trip to the tip with bits of garden was bothersome, so I got rid of it and now cycle to work 90% of the time, and sometimes walk when the weather is nice. The fact that it's good for me and I enjoy it (most of the time) helps I guess.


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## JPBoothy (1 Jan 2019)

Smokin Joe said:


> We are destroying the planet because there are too many of us. Until we have the courage to face up to that and drastically restrict childbirth we are peeing in the wind. No use cutting carbon emissions by 10% per head if we increase our number by 20%.
> 
> I wouldn't worry over much though, we were never going to be a permanent fixture here. If we don't destroy ourselves in the meantime the Sun will take care of us eventually.


Happy New Year


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## Rusty Nails (1 Jan 2019)

I cycle for four reasons:

I love it
It can be quicker than by car
It helps keep me fit
I love it


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## Alan O (1 Jan 2019)

Drago said:


> That'll be the climate change conference to which all the delegates flew in jet aircraft.


Hang on now, if we restricted all the political jaw-jaw to places and people who put their money where their mouths are, and have the meetings where people have been phenomenally successful in advancing cycling over the ever-expanding consumption of fossil fuels, we'd end up with the Dutch in charge of the world.

Ooh, now... that might not be such a bad idea. If it happens, please remember I suggested it here


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## Drago (1 Jan 2019)

@Alan O wins the coveted Post of the Day award for a wonderfully humorous and adroitly observed post. Well done.


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## SkipdiverJohn (1 Jan 2019)

PaulSB said:


> . However I do enjoy the fact my hobby has very little impact on the environment........I realise we could have a whole debate about manufacturing, air miles etc..............but just cycling is virtually zero impact.



I see a lot of wasteful practices and sheer hypocrisy in cycling; people that just_ have to_ buy the latest model year bike just because it's new, are too lazy to use a pump so they create loads of empty CO2 cartridge waste, those who just chuck away their inner tubes instead of patching them, those who bin a nearly new tyre after only a few rides because they didn't like something about it. Cycling_ can be_ very low impact if you do it on a shoestring, fixing up old bikes and running everything until you've wrung the last mile of life out of it. For a lot of cyclists, especially the recreational road cyclist, their hobby is far from zero impact because of the consumerist way in which they go about it.


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## User66445 (1 Jan 2019)

Clearly the planet, universe and all things on it are doomed. Does that mean we should accelerate the destruction, which is current policy, or try to slow the rate of destruction by acting responsibly?

Hint: the second choice will never be taken, not enough money in it.

Tell me, skipdiver, and I really don't know the answer, are you a consumer? If not, could you explain to the rest of us how to do it? I see you live in London, which more or less gives the answer.


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## EltonFrog (1 Jan 2019)

I’ll start to look at the impact my consumerism has on the environment, when multi-story office blocks switch off their lights when the building is empty, when petrol stations turn off all their neon lights when closed, when bus companies run smaller more eco friendly buses on rural routes, when street lamps are turned off when not needed, when ALL new buildings are built with solar and other renewable power sources, when politicians stop letting farm land getting built on, when parents send their kids to school on their own, when water companies stop wasting water, when cities have car free days, when it compulsory for food and grocery suppliers to stop using plastic packaging. 

I could go on but I need to drive one mile to the shop to buy milk in a plastic bottle and some crisps in a bag that takes a thousand years to degrade.


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## Drago (1 Jan 2019)

Problem is, if we each only act when someone else acts first then nothing will ever change.


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## Pat "5mph" (1 Jan 2019)

Richard Fairhurst said:


> Yes, but “environmental” in its wider sense - not just carbon/pollution, but also the improvement to the built and rural environment if more of us rode bikes and we could reduce/rethink roadspace.


That is a new way of thinking for me, you are right, of course.
Roads where cycling/walking is unpleasant at the moment could change if more would start cycling or walking.



SkipdiverJohn said:


> I see a lot of wasteful practices and sheer hypocrisy in cycling; people that just_ have to_ buy the latest model year bike just because it's new, are too lazy to use a pump so they create loads of empty CO2 cartridge waste, those who just chuck away their inner tubes instead of patching them, those who bin a nearly new tyre after only a few rides because they didn't like something about it. Cycling_ can be_ very low impact if you do it on a shoestring, fixing up old bikes and running everything until you've wrung the last mile of life out of it. For a lot of cyclists, especially the recreational road cyclist, their hobby is far from zero impact because of the consumerist way in which they go about it.


Well, let's not exaggerate, most people do sell on their old gear, or give it to charity.


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## mudsticks (1 Jan 2019)

Drago said:


> That'll be the climate change conference to which all the delegates flew in jet aircraft.



We actually had our MP - who came to our green group give us his wise thoughts on CC - tell us that the problem of rising sea levels had really been brought home to him when he went to a Pacific Island ( by canoe of course !!) to attend a climate change conference -and he'd finally realised the potentially devastating effects of CC --- This is the level of ignorance we are up against ..



avole said:


> Clearly the planet, universe and all things on it are doomed. Does that mean we should accelerate the destruction, which is current policy, or try to slow the rate of destruction by acting responsibly?
> 
> Hint: the second choice will never be taken, not enough money in it.
> 
> Tell me, skipdiver, and I really don't know the answer, are you a consumer? If not, could you explain to the rest of us how to do it? I see you live in London, which more or less gives the answer.



Thats if you assume that everyone makes their choices purely based on how much money things cost, or can be made out of them.

But even now your average human doesn't make all their choices this way - there are plenty other motivations - fear - love - creativity - altruism - wanting to fit in - or wanting to stand out - all that stuff and more besides...

If we could design, and implement a proper system where ecology, and people care, had equal if not greater status than sheer economic power then we might get somewhere.... The Dutch, and the folks of the Scandilands probs do come closest to that right now

But how to wrest control over all this from the most greedy, and power hungry sorts - this is the conundrum.

The meek are supposed to inherit the earth - trouble is 'the meek' for which read the less greedy selfish sorts just get trampled over or shouted down by all the bully boys ... There isn't going to be anything to inherit soon


Common sense tells us we can't have infinite growth, and consumption on a planet with limited resources, and pollution carrying capacity -

The last few generations have completely ignored this hard fact.

Remains to be seen if enough of the powers that be, all around the world wake up, and respond to the cliff edge we're teetering on ...
Maybe if electorates in general were more vocal on all this, then maybe we would get the leadership we need ??


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## EltonFrog (1 Jan 2019)

Drago said:


> Problem is, if we each only act when someone else acts first then nothing will ever change.



Well, I do my bit, but it’s the corporate world and government that needs to take the lead.


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## PaulSB (1 Jan 2019)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> I see a lot of wasteful practices and sheer hypocrisy in cycling; people that just_ have to_ buy the latest model year bike just because it's new, are too lazy to use a pump so they create loads of empty CO2 cartridge waste, those who just chuck away their inner tubes instead of patching them, those who bin a nearly new tyre after only a few rides because they didn't like something about it. Cycling_ can be_ very low impact if you do it on a shoestring, fixing up old bikes and running everything until you've wrung the last mile of life out of it. For a lot of cyclists, especially the recreational road cyclist, their hobby is far from zero impact because of the consumerist way in which they go about it.



If this is a pop at me I'd appreciate an apology. You know nothing about my environmental interests nor what happens in my household to minimise our impact on the environment.


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## Drago (1 Jan 2019)

CarlP said:


> Well, I do my bit, but it’s the corporate world and government that needs to take the lead.



Ministers are entitled to claim a Pious as their official car. Not a single one presently does. The vested interests in various polluting companies by many ministers and MPs means we have a governmental system unlikely to ever lead any any truly revolutionary issue. They will only act once the electorate apply sufficient pressure for them to do so, and the best way to do that is with our purchasing power. The manner in which we direct that power has a profound effect directly on many MPs and ministers portfolios, but also upon industry lobbyists and PR leaders.


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## Pat "5mph" (1 Jan 2019)

PaulSB said:


> If this is a pop at me I'd appreciate an apology. You know nothing about my environmental interests nor what happens in my household to minimise our impact on the environment.


*Mod Note:*
It's not a pop at you, @SkipdiverJohn has posted similar across many threads since he joined.
I know Christmas is past, but ... peace to all CC membership, cheers!


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## MontyVeda (1 Jan 2019)

I don't drive for financial and environmental reasons. 
I cycle because it gets me from A to B when walking would take too long.


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## Ming the Merciless (1 Jan 2019)

Drago said:


> Ministers are entitled to claim a Pious as their official car. Not a single one presently does. The vested interests in various polluting companies by many ministers and MPs means we have a governmental system unlikely to ever lead any any truly revolutionary issue. They will only act once the electorate apply sufficient pressure for them to do so, and the best way to do that is with our purchasing power. The manner in which we direct that power has a profound effect directly on many MPs and ministers portfolios, but also upon industry lobbyists and PR leaders.



A typo for sure but the Pious car would be only for the devout.


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## jefmcg (1 Jan 2019)

Drago said:


> And it's not just the environmental issue. When the oil is gone, its gone- no more road fuel, no more plastics (although in some ways that may not be a bad thing), synthetic materials, asphalt. Large scale food production and distribution becomes impossible at the current state of the art when the oil has disappeared.
> 
> And the more we use, the greater dependence we have on foreign enregry sources, the worse our strategic position is in a time of international crisis. These reasons are also very compelling to me.
> 
> The reasons not to fritter it away are so vast and varied I'm further astonished at societies careless attitude to its use.


If we burn all the fossil fuels, all of that will be the least of our problems. Experts predict the carbon released would raise temperatures by 10-20C. That's your mad max post apocalyptic landscape across most of the land. Which would be smaller with no ice caps.


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## BrumJim (1 Jan 2019)

I started 5-day-a-week commuting by bike for environmental reasons. Now it is due to endorphins addiction and getting home on time more often, especially on rainy days.


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## User66445 (1 Jan 2019)

Please ignore anything that appears here. The powers that be and the implicit sheep emotion got to me.


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## Drago (1 Jan 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> A typo for sure but the Pious car would be only for the devout.



Not a typo!


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## SkipdiverJohn (1 Jan 2019)

PaulSB said:


> If this is a pop at me I'd appreciate an apology. You know nothing about my environmental interests nor what happens in my household to minimise our impact on the environment.



No it wasn't a pop at you. I just don't agree with the culture of a throwaway society, and I don't like the pious virtue-signalling do-gooders out there who preach one thing yet drive their lazy overweight kids to school by car and then fly halfway around the world a couple of times a year for their holiday. It's not the fact that they do these things that bothers me, it's the fact they try to lecture everybody else about what they should or shouldn't do in order to "save the planet" whilst doing the complete opposite themselves. I make no claim whatsoever to be trying to save the planet, yet my resource use footprint is probably a lot less than the typical pious and bossy member of the metropolitan chattering classes who are constantly trying to tell everybody else what to do whilst existing in their own bubble.



Drago said:


> Ministers are entitled to claim a Pious as their official car. Not a single one presently does. ........ They will only act once the electorate apply sufficient pressure for them to do so, and the best way to do that is with our purchasing power. The manner in which we direct that power has a profound effect directly on many MPs and ministers portfolios, but also upon industry lobbyists and PR leaders.



If I was a Minister I wouldn't have one of those Pious pieces of crap if you paid me. I'd rather have a nice big V8 thanks, a proper car like Maggie's old ministerial Rover P5B's. The tree-hugger mobiles aren't even particularly economical in the real world. A mate of mine and his colleague both bought themselves a car to use at work, both doing the same job. My mate bought a secondhand diesel Mondeo for about £3k IIRC. His colleague bought a Pious costing north of £20k. That's great, you say, the Pious will give soooo much more miles per gallon, and pay for itself in fuel savings. Except it didn't. In actual real-life driving conditions, the Mondeo and the Pious both returned around the same overall economy - about 58 mpg. The so-called "green" car was full of toxic heavy metals in it's batteries and must have consumed considerably more resources to make than the Mondeo. "Green" cars like the Pious are not green at all, they just enable their owners to go around moralising about how virtuous they are for buying one. The real greenest cars are the oldest ones still on the road that are kept going for as many years and miles as possible - until they literally fall apart.


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## Drago (1 Jan 2019)

Mrs Ds old MK2 Pious would return mid 70s MPG, 81 or 82 with economy minded determination. If someone is getting 50s in a Pious they're simpy booting it everywhere like a regular car - that is only the fault of the operator. Your chums photocopier salesmans car doesnt come close for genuine economy and cant compare for urban runing (where cars shouldn't be used anyway) when then Pious can go full electric. You contention is oft repeated that "my mates/neighnours/vosses/bullcrapper from the pubs" (delete as applicable) large saloon is more economical than a Pious, and is simply incorrect - drive a pious properly, set up the regen setting, feel the regen point with your throttle foot, they work properly, and a Mondeo isn't the even near the same league - smash the pedal everywhere like a clog wearing buffoon and the Pious will drop to the 50s, but a Mundano diesel driven the same way will drop to the 30s

It's been established that cradle to grave, from digging out of the ground through to finally disposing of and recycling the dead carcass, a small petrol vehicle of 800kg or less is the least damaging, and a Pious isn't the answer to that. (My Smart is the answer to that  ) And I know, theres an environmental penalty for manufacturing them. The point being (and seemingly being missed) is that Ministers aren't even bothering to make a pretence of being environmentally concerned, so any chance of them genuinely being concerned is zero.


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## simongt (1 Jan 2019)

Partly, but that is probably more of a subconcious decision. The GLW doesn't drive anyway, so a bike is her primary transport. I prefer to bike whenever possible, which is most of the time; typically pedalling around 4 - 5k miles yearly, much the same distance as I drive. For me, cycling is much more enjoyable that driving even thought it may take longer and I can switch off when I'm on an empty cycle path ; something that it's not best to do when driving - !


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## Smokin Joe (1 Jan 2019)

Approx 150,000 people die every day and 365,000 are born. The rate of increase will rise substantially as those newborns reach child baring age themselves, so perhaps an end to all child benefits for other than one child would have far more effect than swapping your Mondeo for a Smart. 

You might find that unacceptable; Your choice, your planet. I'll be long gone before the consequences come home.


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## vickster (1 Jan 2019)

Smokin Joe said:


> Approx 150,000 people die every day and 365,000 are born..


In the UK?? Data suggests around 750k births total in 2017...do you mean globally?
I doubt most of the world pays mothers child benefits so I'm not sure where that logic comes from


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## Smokin Joe (1 Jan 2019)

vickster said:


> In the UK?
> I doubt most of the world pays mothers child benefits?


It would need to be a world wide effort. Maybe impossible, but nothing else will address the problem.


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## DCBassman (1 Jan 2019)

@CarlP nails the biggest single environmental problem of all.
There are too many of US. Our toys compound the problem further, but WE are the biggest threat to the planet, because of sheer numbers.


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## Milkfloat (1 Jan 2019)

I cycle a lot of places therefore am killing the environment, that is because According to the Daily Mail I am slowing down all the motorists.


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## classic33 (1 Jan 2019)

Milkfloat said:


> I cycle a lot of places therefore am killing the environment, that is because According to the Daily Mail I am slowing down all the motorists.


I do the same journey, on the same roads, in less time. They're slowing me down.


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## jefmcg (1 Jan 2019)

mudsticks said:


> Definitely - empower women through education and genuine access to reproductive health services - so that having fewer children is a positive choice for them.


I can always trust CycleChat to pin down the real cause of the problems: women.


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## mjr (1 Jan 2019)

classic33 said:


> I do the same journey, on the same roads, in less time. They're slowing me down.


That's why I like having cycleways so I can overtake them. 

I cycle partly for environmental reasons. It just seems so anti-social to shoot fumes into the town and take up a whole lane on my own, thereby making other people shoot more fumes into the town, if I don't need a motor vehicle to move something big.


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## Banjo (1 Jan 2019)

To be completely honest environmental issues are not why I cycle but it is nice to know we are helping to reduce the total amount of emissions.


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## classic33 (1 Jan 2019)

mjr said:


> That's why I like having cycleways so I can overtake them.
> 
> I cycle partly for environmental reasons. It just seems so anti-social to shoot fumes into the town and take up a whole lane on my own, thereby making other people shoot more fumes into the town, if I don't need a motor vehicle to move something big.


That's why I prefer roads. I can still beat them.


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## Milkfloat (1 Jan 2019)

classic33 said:


> I do the same journey, on the same roads, in less time. They're slowing me down.



You obviously don’t read the Daily Mail (thank God).


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## classic33 (1 Jan 2019)

Milkfloat said:


> You obviously don’t read the Daily Mail (thank God).


Along with The Times, Evening Post & Yorkshire Post.


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## tyred (1 Jan 2019)

Drago said:


> *It's been established that cradle to grave, from digging out of the ground through to finally disposing of and recycling the dead carcass, a small petrol vehicle of 800kg or less is the least damaging*, and a Pious isn't the answer to that. (My Smart is the answer to that  ) And I know, theres an environmental penalty for manufacturing them. The point being (and seemingly being missed) is that Ministers aren't even bothering to make a pretence of being environmentally concerned, so any chance of them genuinely being concerned is zero.



My ancient 1100cc 205 weighs in at around 850KG so almost makes me green 

As for cycling, I do that because I enjoy it, not because I'm saving the planet.


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## subaqua (1 Jan 2019)

CarlP said:


> I’ll start to look at the impact my consumerism has on the environment, when multi-story office blocks switch off their lights when the building is empty, when petrol stations turn off all their neon lights when closed, when bus companies run smaller more eco friendly buses on rural routes, when street lamps are turned off when not needed, when ALL new buildings are built with solar and other renewable power sources, when politicians stop letting farm land getting built on, when parents send their kids to school on their own, when water companies stop wasting water, when cities have car free days, when it compulsory for food and grocery suppliers to stop using plastic packaging.
> 
> I could go on but I need to drive one mile to the shop to buy milk in a plastic bottle and some crisps in a bag that takes a thousand years to degrade.




Have a look at new buildings in relation to BREEAM , LEED. 

Have a look at the building regs , particularly Part L ( conservation of fuel and power) 

They do get built with lights that turn off when nobody there - absence detection , the BMS turns off cooling etc when nobody present. Solar panels are installed but sadly if they can’t get close to top end of FIT band sizes developers only put in the maximum for next size down as it’s not economic sense . ( Merton rule is used extensively but 10% is measly ) 

Transformers , motors , chillers all have to be high efficiency as that’s an EU directive ( thank you EU another benefit of membership ) 

Where does the problem lie. Facilities management companies not understanding how to use and maintain the systems we design and install . And why - because of greed and not wanting to train staff how to. 


Even the power used to construct is under spotlight . I am currently writing a scope of work and particular specification for the project I am on for “ temporary power and water” and have specified absence detection , LED lights where lights are needed, lights not being on in daylight unless required to meet legislation for escape route lighting. 

We tried to get PV on top of site accommodation but that was too difficult to get the planning consents for.... 

Developers will spend green pounds , but the appetite has to be right.


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## jefmcg (1 Jan 2019)

Banjo said:


> To be completely honest environmental issues are not why I cycle but it is nice to know we are helping to reduce the total amount of emissions.


We aren't reducing the total emissions; we are just not increasing them as some other people.

Deliveroo riders _might_ be decreasing emissions, assuming those deliveries would otherwise be made by car or scooter.


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## KneesUp (1 Jan 2019)

I cycled behind someone on an ebike this morning. They were wearing a high vis vest with “The zero emissions option” on it. They might charge the battery by solar I suppose.


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## jay clock (1 Jan 2019)

I would love to do more shopping by bike but we live in a hilly town, and I fully accept that even the keenest of cyclist will shy away from the run back from town fully laden


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## classic33 (1 Jan 2019)

jay clock said:


> I would love to do more shopping by bike but we live in a hilly town, and I fully accept that even the keenest of cyclist will shy away from the run back from town fully laden


I've taken the old washer to the recycling site, and collected the replacement by cycle. Around an eight mile round trip.

Three piece suite and fridge freezers taken there, recycling centre, as well. I'm not paying someone to do what I can do!!


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## mudsticks (1 Jan 2019)

jefmcg said:


> I can always trust CycleChat to pin down the real cause of the problems: women.



On the contrary they probably _hold the solution_ to most of the problems ...


And they _certainly_ aren't responsible for _most_ of the greedy, selfish, aggressive "Me me me" Ego type business that has trashed the planet..


Only the guys aren't listening to those solutions - they're too busy holed up in places like this - chatting to each other about bottom brackets


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## Pat "5mph" (1 Jan 2019)

mudsticks said:


> On the contrary they probably _hold the solution_ to most of the problems ...
> 
> 
> And they _certainly_ aren't responsible for _most_ of the greedy, selfish, aggressive "Me me me" Ego type business that has trashed the planet..
> ...


A "like" for your good natured response to @jefmcg, but, imo, us women do our fair share of planet destroying, I know I do for sure.
The carbon footprint of the imported cooking ingredients I use daily is probably more than what I save by cycling everywhere 
But then, I remember when one could not easily find a head of garlic in Scottish shops


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## classic33 (1 Jan 2019)

Pat "5mph" said:


> A "like" for your good natured response to @jefmcg, but, imo, us women do our fair share of planet destroying, I know I do for sure.
> The carbon footprint of the imported cooking ingredients I use daily is probably more than what I save by cycling everywhere *
> But then, I remember when one could not easily find a head of garlic in Scottish shops *


There's at least one Scottish company growing it.
https://www.reallygarlicky.co.uk/


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## mudsticks (1 Jan 2019)

Pat "5mph" said:


> A "like" for your good natured response to @jefmcg, but, imo, us women do our fair share of planet destroying, I know I do for sure.
> The carbon footprint of the imported cooking ingredients I use daily is probably more than what I save by cycling everywhere
> But then, I remember when one could not easily find a head of garlic in Scottish shops



Yes indeed.. But who created the industrialised food system, that creates all this CO 2, who makes most money from it? 
Who eats the food you, or any other woman prepared its not just women doing the eating.. 

And who did the colonising that habituated us to having all these 'exotic' ingredients.. 
Although there are varieties of garlic that do OK in Scotland.

As far as I'm aware (and I've studied this) women are leading the charge in relocalising the Scottish fresh food growing industry - operating smaller scaled more eco friendly units on the whole 

Of course we all have to take responsibility got our actions both men and women.. 

But women haven't had much say in how things are run, or done, up until very recently.. 

I reckon its their time to step forward. 

(do I get another point Pat??)


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## classic33 (1 Jan 2019)

KneesUp said:


> I cycled behind someone on an ebike this morning. *They were wearing a high vis vest *with “The zero emissions option” on it. They might charge the battery by solar I suppose.


Get one that has "The only zero emission option" and pass them.


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## mjr (1 Jan 2019)

classic33 said:


> Get one that has "The only zero emission option" and pass them.


For irony, pass wind loudly as you pass them, or cut one as you cut back in


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## classic33 (1 Jan 2019)

mjr said:


> For irony, pass wind loudly as you pass them, or cut one as you cut back in


The reference by me was with regards the vehicle in use.


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## mudsticks (1 Jan 2019)

classic33 said:


> Get one that has "The only zero emission option" and pass them.



It is possible to buy electricity from companies that source only from renewable generators. 

Been doing this from a comp called 'Good Energy' for over 20yrs now


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## Blue Hills (2 Jan 2019)

jay clock said:


> I would love to do more shopping by bike but we live in a hilly town, and I fully accept that even the keenest of cyclist will shy away from the run back from town fully laden


Don't know about your age or health but I live up a very substantial hill culdesac so always have to cycle up it on my return. It's far easier to cycle up that hill with the shopping in panniers than to carry even half of it walking. No longer have a car. Presumably you exert yourself when cycling not shopping. Why not shopping? 
Is your gearing OK?


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## KneesUp (2 Jan 2019)

I get one of the big supermarkets to bring most of the shopping to me, and then use the bike / Shank's pony for 'bits' in the week. Much less stressful.


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## MichaelW2 (2 Jan 2019)

I cycle for purely selfish reasons. In terms of cost/fun/calories burnt I would rate my cycling towards the top end of activities. Maybe I'm not doing it right.


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## Yellow Saddle (2 Jan 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> I read somewhere that the carbon footprint of manufacturing a bike is approximately the carbon footprint of commuting by car for four weeks. I also read that approx half the carbon footprint of a car is in its manufacture.



That's all very vague and smacks of the nonsense on BBC4 I heard this week.

"Commuting for four weeks" means nothing. How far is your commute? Commute by what?
"half the carbon footpring of a car is in its manufacture". More vague. If a car does 500 000kms before getting scrapped, it's carbon footprint from fuel is higher than one that crashed when it left the forecourt.

There are too many glib statements flying around. Cow methane is next on my radar. Sorry if you became collateral damage.


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## Corky Cyclist (2 Jan 2019)

I cycle for fun and because it's quicker and more convenient than driving.


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## KneesUp (2 Jan 2019)

Yellow Saddle said:


> That's all very vague and smacks of the nonsense on BBC4 I heard this week.
> 
> "Commuting for four weeks" means nothing. How far is your commute? Commute by what?
> "half the carbon footpring of a car is in its manufacture". More vague. If a car does 500 000kms before getting scrapped, it's carbon footprint from fuel is higher than one that crashed when it left the forecourt..


I suspect it's based on averages, and works when you look at the whole picture. Obviously individual cases may vary,.

(but it might correlate too - I'm poor/tight so I have an older, higher mileage car (10 years old, 125k miles) and an older bike (30 this year, mileage unknown) I suspect people who cycle and own a newer car that they change regularly are also statistically more likely to have a newer bike they change more often too - although I fully accept that following this post there will be lots of posts about driving a 4o year old Land Rover that's been in perpetual motion since the war, but owning a brand new bike, as well as posts about driving a brand new car and riding the bike their grandfather used for getting to work)


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## classic33 (2 Jan 2019)

KneesUp said:


> I suspect it's based on averages, and works when you look at the whole picture. Obviously individual cases may vary,.
> 
> (but it might correlate too - I'm poor/tight so I have an older, higher mileage car (10 years old, 125k miles) and an older bike (30 this year, mileage unknown) I suspect people who cycle and own a newer car that they change regularly are also statistically more likely to have a newer bike they change more often too - although I fully accept that following this post there will be lots of posts about driving a 4o year old Land Rover that's been in perpetual motion since the war, but owning a brand new bike, as well as posts about driving a brand new car* and riding the bike their grandfather used for getting to work)*


Mine was a farmer, with his place of work starting just beyond the yard.


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## biggs682 (2 Jan 2019)

My daily commute is 1.5 miles and the car wouldn't even get warm so i have used a bike for 9+ years


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## Ming the Merciless (2 Jan 2019)

Yellow Saddle said:


> That's all very vague and smacks of the nonsense on BBC4 I heard this week.
> 
> "Commuting for four weeks" means nothing. How far is your commute? Commute by what?
> "half the carbon footpring of a car is in its manufacture". More vague. If a car does 500 000kms before getting scrapped, it's carbon footprint from fuel is higher than one that crashed when it left the forecourt.
> ...



10 miles, 5 days a week, mondeo sized car. Based on a 300,000 mile life.


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## mudsticks (2 Jan 2019)

classic33 said:


> Mine was a farmer, with his place of work starting just beyond the yard.



This is my problem too.. The commute to the farm being only a short porch length from the front door.

I guess if I had greater resolve I would get up 40 mins earlier and go for a spin round the lanes, first, before work.

Might be another NY's resolution, to drop by the second week of January.

Sadly I have no knowledge of whether my grandfather owned a bicycle, and there is no one left to ask.


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## Yellow Saddle (2 Jan 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> 10 miles, 5 days a week, mondeo sized car. Based on a 300,000 mile life.


Well then, its still crazy. What does it matter how many days a week and how many miles per trip if we only care about the 300k total.


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## Ming the Merciless (2 Jan 2019)

Yellow Saddle said:


> Well then, its still crazy. What does it matter how many days a week and how many miles per trip if we only care about the 300k total.



The first bit relates to the four week figure or have you so quickly forgotten what you read?


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## Yellow Saddle (2 Jan 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> The first bit relates to the four week figure or have you so quickly forgotten what you read?



Yup, I had. Nevertheless, I have one more up my sleeve. What is a moderate sized car? When I started driving my moderate-sized car consumed 16l/100km. Today my moderate sized car consumes less than 6l/100km.

I'm actually not after an answer. I'm after scientist dumbing down things on TV and radio. Why do they have to explain, for instance, a certain volume of water as x number of olympic sized swimming pools? Or, Y distance as twice around the world.

Give us a figure and allow us to grapple with it, without having to do a sanity check.

As soon as a statistic is dumbed down, they've diluted the debate.


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## pjd57 (2 Jan 2019)

I cycle for me.
I feel better physically
I feel better mentally
I am better off financially
I get to places on time, every time.

If it helps the environment as well , good.


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## mjr (2 Jan 2019)

Yellow Saddle said:


> I'm actually not after an answer. I'm after scientist dumbing down things on TV and radio. Why do they have to explain, for instance, a certain volume of water as x number of olympic sized swimming pools? Or, Y distance as twice around the world.


Generally, scientists don't, journalists do. (I've trained a little as both... now there's a conflict in writing styles to be endured!)


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## Ming the Merciless (2 Jan 2019)

Yellow Saddle said:


> Yup, I had. Nevertheless, I have one more up my sleeve. What is a moderate sized car? When I started driving my moderate-sized car consumed 16l/100km. Today my moderate sized car consumes less than 6l/100km.
> 
> I'm actually not after an answer. I'm after scientist dumbing down things on TV and radio. Why do they have to explain, for instance, a certain volume of water as x number of olympic sized swimming pools? Or, Y distance as twice around the world.
> 
> ...



Whichever figure you want to use for your car, we are talking orders of magnitude. The carbon footprint of making a bike is recovered in a matter of a few weeks commuting compared against a car.


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## Yellow Saddle (2 Jan 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> The carbon footprint of making a bike is recovered in a matter of a few weeks commuting compared against a car.



Now, wasn't that so much easier to say and comprehend than: 

"I read somewhere that the carbon footprint of manufacturing a bike is approximately the carbon footprint of commuting by car for four weeks. I also read that approx half the carbon footprint of a car is in its manufacture." With the additional rider: "10 miles, 5 days a week, mondeo sized car. Based on a 300,000 mile life."


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## MrPie (2 Jan 2019)

Nope. Biking is fun, thoroughly enjoyable, keeps ya fit, and gets you to nice places. The planet is going to hell in a handbasket, irrespective of human activity.


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## 12boy (3 Jan 2019)

When I was young I liked to take a lot of dope, drink a lot and smoke a lot. Marriage, kids and a job steered me away from those jolly times and I began riding a bike. 30 some years of bike commuting a couple of hours a day resulted in my realization I had traded those addictions for my bike, although that`s gotten out of hand, too. I have at least 4 bikes I ride frequently and a few more set up for seasonal ice/snow problems. I also have 4 cars and except for travelling interstate to see family, probably ride more than drive. Not just for environmental reasons but also to have exercise and time alone a built in part of life. Bicycling has been very good to me.


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## Nebulous (3 Jan 2019)

raleighnut said:


> I stopped buying Petrol when it went over a quid a gallon, sold the motorbike and have only owned bikes since.


That's a long time ago! It turned a pound a gallon very close to when I passed my test - late 1979.


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## Levo-Lon (3 Jan 2019)

I do it for me (health) to save money  do we have a hysterical smiley..though I mean diesel and the pollution.
And I guess I feel like I'm trying to be a planetist but im of the opinion we're far too late to save it or us..


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## Alan O (3 Jan 2019)

Yellow Saddle said:


> Cow methane is next on my radar...


What, don't tell me that when I ride a cow to work I'm *not* helping save the planet?!


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## Yellow Saddle (3 Jan 2019)

mjr said:


> Generally, scientists don't, journalists do. (I've trained a little as both... now there's a conflict in writing styles to be endured!)


I heard a great one this morning and I'll praphrase the "scientist" commenting on global warming: "The heat generated from Greenhouse gases radiating back to the earth in XYZ scenario equals the heat generated by 100 000 Hiroshima-sized bombs. "

Now...I have no idea what that means, I really dont. It sounds wow, but so what.

Compare that to this statement regarding the same phenomena: "6 watt of heat per square meter of the earth's surface". I can relate to that and I think most people would too.


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## Alan O (3 Jan 2019)

Yellow Saddle said:


> "6 watt of heat per square meter of the earth's surface"...


Ah, but the earth's surface - how much is that in football pitches?


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## RichK (3 Jan 2019)

Not in the slightest. However, I include the enviro card when explaining to others why it's better than driving but doesn't influence my decision. I'll pick my mode of transport (cycle, car, train, foot) based on what's best (for me) for the required journey & purpose.


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## confusedcyclist (3 Jan 2019)

I started cycling citing mostly financial and fitness reasons, but climate was always there buzzing in the background. As time went on, I learned about Peak Oil and the implications of AGW, the 6th mass extinction, and the debt bubble. All of it cemented my resolve to avoid motor transport wherever practically possible, for the sake of my daughter and grand children. Most do not look that far into the future when making the choice about motor based transport (of all kinds). Even buses and trains are unsustainable, despite their recent green-washing. As other's have pointed out, cycling itself isn't environmentally friendly as the green-washers might have you believe. They are for the most part a product of the industrial economy, which is itself quite destructive. The manufacturing processes are damaging. However, they are the lesser of many evils. Cycling is only marginally worse than walking in man made boots. Only walking bare footed is really environmentally neutral, assuming your food source (energy) is also sustainable.

I figure citing 'personal competitive advantage' and 'making a living' in the job marketplace as an excuse to drive around hither and thither will not be a well received once the next generation hold their equivalence of the Nuremberg trials. In any case, combustion engines will be the privilege of the elite on the other side of this decade if things carry on the way there are, why not get used to getting about only by muscle power now?

I'd prefer to be part of the solution and not the problem. Not to say I am an angel, I'm still working on it . I don't blame people for their choice to drive either. It's the system. It forced me down that same path for a time, but I took the blue pill and can't look back.

In the mean time, I have also reduced my consumption of meat, don't buy things new unless I really have to, mostly do without where I can, and stopped flying. In the near future, I plan to drop to 3-4 days a week at work so I have more time to grow my own food in anticipation of the collapse of the market economy. Yes. Seriously. It's coming.


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## Blue Hills (3 Jan 2019)

not sure whether to like that but interesting stuff 

thanks.


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## steveindenmark (5 Jan 2019)

I ride because I love riding. 

It would be far more convenient to take the car. But I prefer the bike.


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## mustang1 (5 Jan 2019)

Cycling is purely a fun activity for me. The fact that it gets me around the place is a bonus. 

It's cheaper and less time consuming than car racing or flying a plane.


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## Andy in Germany (7 Jan 2019)

I started riding seriously for environmental reasons, but then I got addicted: It's an essentially free way to travel that keeps you fit and you can fix yourself, what's not to like?


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## SpokeyDokey (7 Jan 2019)

@BADGER.BRAD 

A good number of votes cast. Did you have a view of how the split would pan out before you started the poll? Any surprises?


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## burntoutbanger (7 Jan 2019)

I'm having a bit of a midlife crisis. I can't afford to run six cars but I can just about afford to run six bicycles.


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## classic33 (7 Jan 2019)

burntoutbanger said:


> I'm having a bit of a midlife crisis. I can't afford to run six cars but I can just about afford to run six bicycles.


Mine have wheels, not legs.


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## Andy in Germany (8 Jan 2019)

classic33 said:


> Mine have wheels, not legs.



Traditionalist.


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## mudsticks (8 Jan 2019)

confusedcyclist said:


> I started cycling citing mostly financial and fitness reasons, but climate was always there buzzing in the background. As time went on, I learned about Peak Oil and the implications of AGW, the 6th mass extinction, and the debt bubble. All of it cemented my resolve to avoid motor transport wherever practically possible, for the sake of my daughter and grand children. Most do not look that far into the future when making the choice about motor based transport (of all kinds). Even buses and trains are unsustainable, despite their recent green-washing. As other's have pointed out, cycling itself isn't environmentally friendly as the green-washers might have you believe. They are for the most part a product of the industrial economy, which is itself quite destructive. The manufacturing processes are damaging. However, they are the lesser of many evils. Cycling is only marginally worse than walking in man made boots. Only walking bare footed is really environmentally neutral, assuming your food source (energy) is also sustainable.
> 
> I figure citing 'personal competitive advantage' and 'making a living' in the job marketplace as an excuse to drive around hither and thither will not be a well received once the next generation hold their equivalence of the Nuremberg trials. In any case, combustion engines will be the privilege of the elite on the other side of this decade if things carry on the way there are, why not get used to getting about only by muscle power now?
> 
> ...



I sympathise with your position, and struggles.
Although I do still have to drive for work I try to limit it, and am seriously considering some kind of electric delivery vehicle.

Having been switched onto environmental stuff over thirty years ago, I've spent what I consider an unfair amount of time deflecting all the jibes about eco-warrior, tree hugger, sandal wearing ya de ya.

It is tricky trying to do the right and 'green' thing.

Especially in a society, and economy that would have us endlessly consuming, and vying with each other for material status of some kind.

If there is anyone to look back in a hundred years I'm sure they will marvel at all our polluting, and profligate use of resources for our own convenience.. With the same kind of disbelief that we now have for people who thought that slavery was justifiable.

We seem to have lost all sight of how much is 'sufficient'
Or any ability to comprehend, or care about the long term consequences of what we do now, for future inhabitants of the planet.

I don't suppose we'll be in time to reverse all the damage we have done, but I'm still hoping, that we might find a way to let ourselves down with some grace.

Tricky times approach, on many fronts.


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## DCBassman (8 Jan 2019)

mudsticks said:


> I sympathies with your position, and struggles.
> Although I do still have to drive for work I try to limit it, and am seriously considering some kind of electric delivery vehicle.
> 
> Having been switched onto environmental stuff over thirty years ago, I've spent what I consider an unfair amount of time deflecting all the jibes about eco-warrior, tree hugger, sandal wearing ya de ya.
> ...


Great post.


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## Alan O (8 Jan 2019)

While I was out yesterday in driving rain and howling wind, with gusts almost blowing me over, I was thinking "I'm cycling to save this"... oh, hang on, no, I wasn't.


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## glasgowcyclist (8 Jan 2019)

I ride a bike because that's what everyone did where I grew up. A bicycle meant freedom, independence, mobility, range, exploration, adventure and fun.

I remember using my big brother's bike when I was still way too small to ride it properly, so I rode it by putting one leg through the frame to the other pedal. When I was nearly tall enough, my brother screwed a couple of wooden blocks on the pedals so I could reach. When I got my very own bike it was the most exciting day of my life and I've had bikes ever since.

I get that there are environmental positives from using one but that's a happy by-product rather than my motivation for cycling.


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## confusedcyclist (8 Jan 2019)

mudsticks said:


> It is tricky trying to do the right and 'green' thing.
> 
> Especially in a society, and economy that would have us endlessly consuming, and vying with each other for material status of some kind.



Indeed, one cannot participate in civilisation without in some way being complicit in the destruction of our planet. But one can minimise the harm they do by questioning what is normal, and what is good. There is research that suggestions if everyone kept their spending at or below $12,000 USD annually (per person) then we may have some hope of averting the many crises that are heading our way. Frugality is key to minimising our impact. Senseless consumerism is part of the problem. The problem with our culture is that our social status is closely aligned with our earning/spending prowess and goods consumed, rather than cultures of old where we earned our status and place in our social groupings based on what we gave to each other (and those things need not cost anything).


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## FishFright (8 Jan 2019)

confusedcyclist said:


> I started cycling citing mostly financial and fitness reasons, but climate was always there buzzing in the background. As time went on, I learned about Peak Oil and the implications of AGW, the 6th mass extinction, and the debt bubble. All of it cemented my resolve to avoid motor transport wherever practically possible, for the sake of my daughter and grand children. Most do not look that far into the future when making the choice about motor based transport (of all kinds). Even buses and trains are unsustainable, despite their recent green-washing. As other's have pointed out, cycling itself isn't environmentally friendly as the green-washers might have you believe. They are for the most part a product of the industrial economy, which is itself quite destructive. The manufacturing processes are damaging. However, they are the lesser of many evils. Cycling is only marginally worse than walking in man made boots. Only walking bare footed is really environmentally neutral, assuming your food source (energy) is also sustainable.
> 
> I figure citing 'personal competitive advantage' and 'making a living' in the job marketplace as an excuse to drive around hither and thither will not be a well received once the next generation hold their equivalence of the Nuremberg trials. In any case, combustion engines will be the privilege of the elite on the other side of this decade if things carry on the way there are, why not get used to getting about only by muscle power now?
> 
> ...



That's so refreshing to read , thanks . It makes a lovely change from 'Why won't somebody else do something about it'


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## mudsticks (8 Jan 2019)

confusedcyclist said:


> Indeed, one cannot participate in civilisation without in some way being complicit in the destruction of our planet. But one can minimise the harm they do by questioning what is normal, and what is good. There is research that suggestions if everyone kept their spending at or below $12,000 USD annually (per person) then we may have some hope of averting the many crises that are heading our way. Frugality is key to minimising our impact. Senseless consumerism is part of the problem. The problem with our culture is that our social status is closely aligned with our earning/spending prowess and goods consumed, rather than cultures of old where we earned our status and place in our social groupings based on what we gave to each other (and those things need not cost anything).



Exactly - i get a tremendous amount of satisfaction from my work - which hopefully contributes to making the world a better place - even if sometimes it's quite hard - knowing its useful keeps one going on the dreary days.

I don't make a vast amount of money - but enough - and thankfully - most of my outside-of-work entertainments, and pleasures - cycling for example?
- are relatively low cost - and low impact.

How lucky am i ??

Well yes of course, luck comes into it - but also no small amount of conscious design for life, and making forward looking choices around these things - so that 'status' or perhaps a better expression 'self worth' and life satisfaction, come from within - it doesn't require so much validation from the outside .


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## Milkfloat (8 Jan 2019)

I think the results of this poll are slightly surprising, but also great news for the environment. Less than 1% cycle only because of the environment and the majority don't care at all. It shows that people (albeit ones on a cycling forum) like cycling because it is cycling and you don't need to wear a hair shirt and be a tree hugger to help the environment, it is just an accident that cycling is good for the environment.


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## Andy in Germany (8 Jan 2019)

mudsticks said:


> Well yes of course, luck comes into it - *but also no small amount of conscious design for life*, and making forward looking choices around these things - so that 'status' or perhaps a better expression 'self worth' and life satisfaction, come from within - it doesn't require so much validation from the outside .



Thanks for saying this: It is remarkable how often I get told I'm "Lucky" to be "able" to live without a car, and how often this judgement comes with a quite aggresive, self justifying response as well. I've decided people say this sort of thing because it is an easy way to dismiss our way of life as 'luck' so they don't have to think about changing theirs. In fact we can live the way we do partly because of the decisions we have consciously made, and accepting that some 'normal' activities will be difficult or impossible.

That said, you'd have to pay me to own a car again. I'm looking at future employers very carefully indeed and really hoping I can get away with not using one of the wretched things ever again...


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## 12boy (8 Jan 2019)

Couldn't do well without a car. Plane fare from Casper to Denver costs more than Denver to New York or LA. One intercity bus and it ain't cheap. Bus system very weak in town, no passenger rail, and cabs expensive. We do batch our trips and only drive somewhere a couple of times a week, running errands back to back. To rephrase Mr. Twain I can't afford a good car so I have 4. However, my Brompton fits in all of them and I can take it with me. To give an idea of how big and unpopulated Wyoming is, it has 1000 sq. miles more than the UK and less than 600,000 residents. Last I heard there were more pronghorn antelope here than people.


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## booze and cake (8 Jan 2019)

@12boy wow I understand the need for a car somewhere like that, you have the place almost all to yourself, that does have its appeal. 

I live in Lambeth, which is one of 32 London boroughs. Lambeth and its neighbourly borough Southwark have a population of about 630,000, squeezed into about 20 square miles. You can't fart here without someone knowing about it.

I've been driving for over 25 years but have never owned a car. I just don't need one in London, and its more hassle than its worth. London is polluted enough, and I'd love better air quality, so I'm glad that one of the happy side effects of cycling is the only emissions come from me....even if its so densely populated some poor soul may end up smelling it, sorry folks. A bike is still the best way to get about here. I've been name driver on a few other peoples cars over the years, and am a member of Zipcar the car club if I have to use one.

Having said that, where my parents live in rural Mid Wales, 200 miles away from me, realistically a car is must. Public transport is sparse or non existent, there's not even a mobile phone signal, so going car-free even on this tiny little rock is a lot easier in some places than others.

I didn't set out or claim to be an eco-warrior, but I don't like that phrase. It seems to imply giving a toss about the planet is extremist and can only be brought on by force, which is ridiculous. Not giving a shoot about the planet should be seen as the extremist and ridiculous view, so we obviously still have a long way to go to change attitudes. Ignoring for a minute the climate change deniers and those that still think the earth is flat , we're much more aware now than we were. It was not that long ago there was no such thing as recycling, unless you had a compost heap in your garden. Things have come a long way in the last 20 years, and I'm happy to try and make things better.

In addition to never owning a car (I do have numerous bicycles but they're OK right) I've not been on a plane in 10 years. I was vegetarian for 18 years. I do eat chicken and fish now, but don't eat red meat. In fact have only ever tasted it once in all my 46 years so far. So I guess I'm well on the way to being a yogurt weaver, pass the hummus and the tofu sandles. I must be doing pretty good in the eco-Top Trumps


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## mudsticks (8 Jan 2019)

Yes what is that about ?? it seems far more crazy to think that looking after home planet isn't the biggest priority - i mean where else are we - and all the other critters going to live??

There's also this idea that not flying, and reducing your car usage as much as possible, and trying to be greener leads to untold misery, expense, and sacrifice.

I go to some wonderfully pointy bits of Europe by train, every year, in the summer to go backpacking, and you can chuck your bike on a train and get _anywhere_ in the uk to go riding, in less than twelve hours.

Attitudes have changed somewhat in the last thirty plus years that I've been involved in 'ecological efforts' - for me those have been mostly but not exclusively in farming .

There _is_ more awareness nowadays - but still a lot more collective action is needed - top down - and bottom up

- politicians won't shift unless the electorate make them.

- so we have a lot of work to do on that front - and then of course politicians are lobbied hardest by them biggest baddest boy, polluting industries - who don't really want to see progress - or change - especially if it affects their profits .

Sometimes i feel like chucking it all in - but if you can find your tribe of change makers - and have some fun whilst you're doing it too - then it makes it worth carrying on .


p.s. @booze and cake - The incontrovertible evidence that the earth _isn't_ flat ???

If it _was_ then cats would have pushed everything off the edge by now


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## booze and cake (8 Jan 2019)

@mudsticks the cat example is genius, I'm amazed that's not proved that argument beyond all doubt


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## mudsticks (8 Jan 2019)

booze and cake said:


> @mudsticks the cat example is genius, I'm amazed that's not proved that argument beyond all doubt



It just has.. 
I mean, do you see anyone here arguing??? 

Sorry something went wrong with my quoting your bit.. Might try to fix it. Will probs break it worse..


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## booze and cake (8 Jan 2019)

I worked in tobacco control for a few years in the past, so know how much of a nest of vipers the whole lobbying thing is, and how low mega-corp will go to protect its interests. Its interests of course being profit, the deaths of millions of people they weren't as bothered with.

Out of interest I just checked on google, and apparently there are 7.53 billion people on earth, and so far only 536 people have ever been into space. It takes a lot of fuel to get just one person into space. I'm guessing we already haven't got enough fuel for that, and our atmosphere would probably have burnt up in the early stages of the exodus [citation needed]. Not to mention the fact we still have not found anywhere we can go, or how to get there. 

So we really should start looking after the place.


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## slowmotion (9 Jan 2019)

Sorry, I don't think about Planet Earth when attempting to turn the cranks.


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## Andy in Germany (9 Jan 2019)

This mornings ride featured horizontal rain, wind varying between sidewind and head wind, so trying to turn bike sideways/having to pedal downhill, graduating to hail later, there was little fun factor. Today was entirely about looking after the environment.

I just wish it'd show a little gratitude...


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## mudsticks (9 Jan 2019)

Andy in Germany said:


> This mornings ride featured horizontal rain, wind varying between sidewind and head wind, so trying to turn bike sideways/having to pedal downhill, graduating to hail later, there was little fun factor. Today was entirely about looking after the environment.
> 
> I just wish it'd show a little gratitude...



Well maybe if you showed some gratitude back?? 

It's supplied you with gravity to keep your tyres on the road, a stable surface to ride on, oxygen to breathe, water to drink and grow the crops that supplied your muscles with energy to push the pedals. 
Not to mention a weathered subsoil, plus organic matter to grow those food crops, and medicines.. The nitrogen cycle that nourished them, and supports lots of other creatures and plants that make up a livable, biodiverse synergistic ecosystem...

Plus PE also supplied all the materials, ores, and fossil deposits that made your bike, and all the other stuff you own and use.. 

I guess the planet could be grateful for your contributions of excreta to add back fertility to the soil (after composting) but I reckon on balance you're doing pretty well out of the deal


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## Andy in Germany (9 Jan 2019)

mudsticks said:


> Well maybe if you showed some gratitude back??
> 
> It's supplied you with gravity to keep your tyres on the road, a stable surface to ride on, oxygen to breathe, water to drink and grow the crops that supplied your muscles with energy to push the pedals.
> Not to mention a weathered subsoil, plus organic matter to grow those food crops, and medicines.. The nitrogen cycle that nourished them, and supports lots of other creatures and plants that make up a livable, biodiverse synergistic ecosystem...
> ...



Humpf.

Ultimately it'll get all of me to help fertilize daisies. This morning makes me wonder if it's trying to speed that up.


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## mudsticks (9 Jan 2019)

Andy in Germany said:


> Humpf.
> 
> Ultimately it'll get all of me to help fertilize daisies. This morning makes me wonder if it's trying to speed that up.



Nah - she's just giving you a chance to strengthen your resolve, and muscles 

Is 'humpf' colloquial German for you're right "I am not worthy..." ??


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## mjr (9 Jan 2019)

booze and cake said:


> Having said that, where my parents live in rural Mid Wales, 200 miles away from me, realistically a car is must. Public transport is sparse or non existent, there's not even a mobile phone signal, so going car-free even on this tiny little rock is a lot easier in some places than others.


I agree with the conclusion - it's a lot easier in urban areas - but I think it's unhelpful to use phrases like "realistically a car is must" because it accuses anyone living in places like that without access to cars (which there are always some) of being unrealistic when clearly they're not. IMO overstating it like that leads to politicians getting away with guff like "cars are essential" and implementing motoring supremacist policies. Cars may be very desirable, but it's a bit short of a must.

@12boy's location sounds like another kettle of fish. If reports of USA governments' attitude to mass transport and public transport are correct, plus critical services are only found in towns, access to a car in rural locations might almost be a must


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## glasgowcyclist (9 Jan 2019)

mudsticks said:


> it seems far more crazy to think that looking after home planet isn't the biggest priority - i mean where else are we - and all the other critters going to live??



Reminds of the sign outside the excellent cake shop near Dalwhinnie distillery (similar to this):


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## mudsticks (9 Jan 2019)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Reminds of the sign outside the excellent cake shop near Dalwhinnie distillery (similar to this):
> 
> View attachment 446358



Well exactly . So why do we carry on as if there is??

We can't really claim ignorance - all these problems have been common knowledge for decades.

I guess it's a collective case of the CBA''s... As my kids used to call it.

Combined with all the usual profit motive pushing us towards consumption..



mjr said:


> I agree with the conclusion - it's a lot easier in urban areas - but I think it's unhelpful to use phrases like "realistically a car is must" because it accuses anyone living in places like that without access to cars (which there are always some) of being unrealistic when clearly they're not. IMO overstating it like that leads to politicians getting away with guff like "cars are essential" and implementing motoring supremacist policies. Cars may be very desirable, but it's a bit short of a must.
> 
> @12boy's location sounds like another kettle of fish. If reports of USA governments' attitude to mass transport and public transport are correct, plus critical services are only found in towns, access to a car in rural locations might almost be a must



I'd agree, it is very difficult to go car free in the country atm unless you are retired or have a job that doesn't involve any actual 'things' 
Public transport is woeful out here, and stupidly expensive. 

I currently run a small car.. 
And a slightly larger tractor. 
Try to minimise use of them. 

Although. both run on diesel I'm afraid, but I'm sure they could have been hydrogen cell driven, years ago if the tech had been encouraged, not sat on, and fossil fuels were taxed at their actual real cost to the planet..


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## 12boy (10 Jan 2019)

We have too much stuff. Everybody needs to pare down what they have and to buy less in the future, starting with people other than me. The only exception is, of course, bicycles.


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## mudsticks (10 Jan 2019)

12boy said:


> We have too much stuff. Everybody needs to pare down what they have and to buy less in the future, starting with people other than me. The only exception is, of course, bicycles.



I think most people feel this really, hence the 'decluttering' industry that has sprung up

I guess while 'stuff' is still so relatively cheap we will keep on buying - as humans we can't seem to resist shiny new, novel things.

Bikes are definitely exempt tho...
When you're out riding a bike you're not shopping - much.


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## Andy in Germany (10 Jan 2019)

mudsticks said:


> I'd agree, it is very difficult to go car free in the country atm unless you are retired or have a job that doesn't involve any actual 'things'
> Public transport is woeful out here, and stupidly expensive.



I was repeatedly told I'd 'need' a car where I live now, that was fifteen (egads I'm old) years ago and thankfully I ignored the advice. 

That said we have a public transport system and traffic free road network that while it isn't much by German standards is the sort of thing I used to dream of while waiting for a bus in the UK.


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## Andy in Germany (10 Jan 2019)

mudsticks said:


> Bikes are definitely exempt tho...
> When you're out riding a bike you're not shopping - much.



Thatr's where the smug ecological credentials of a Bakfiets fall down: I can carry more in that then most people manage in a compact car.


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## mudsticks (10 Jan 2019)

Andy in Germany said:


> I was repeatedly told I'd 'need' a car where I live now, that was fifteen (egads I'm old) years ago and thankfully I ignored the advice.
> 
> That said we have a public transport system and traffic free road network that while it isn't much by German standards is the sort of thing I used to dream of while waiting for a bus in the UK.


There's much to love about the UK ..
But so frustrating when we don't seem able to work together on stuff like an integrated transport system, or environmental controls.
Almost like we are resolutely proud of our plucky British ability to royally fekk things right up...And will defend our right so to do, til our last breath of carbon monoxide.

The price and connectivity of trains and buses on the continent is envy inducing.



Andy in Germany said:


> Thatr's where the smug ecological credentials of a Bakfiets fall down: I can carry more in that then most people manage in a compact car.



Just keep pedalling then.. Don't stop to shop.
Unless it's for buns - buns are always allowed 

@Andy in Germany 
*Ps what is a bakfiets please... Could I get a fleet of them for delivering vegetables?? *


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## confusedcyclist (10 Jan 2019)

mudsticks said:


> But so frustrating when we don't seem able to work together on stuff like an integrated transport system, or environmental controls.
> Almost like we are resolutely proud of our plucky British ability to royally fekk things right up...And will defend our right so to do, til our last breath of carbon monoxide.



This is what happens when profit and greed are put before every other useful metric of human success, happiness and contentment. That not to say a little profit, or greed are bad motivators, but we are incredibly myopic about them.

Bakfiets are cargo bikes.


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## Andy in Germany (10 Jan 2019)

mudsticks said:


> @Andy in Germany
> *Ps what is a bakfiets please... Could I get a fleet of them for delivering vegetables?? *



This is a Bakfiets:






And you can carry all manner of things in them:











So vegetable delivery would be well within their capabilities.

You could even use the Bakfiets as a shop:






Although from experience I recommend cleaning carefully first to remove any horse poo.


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## mjr (10 Jan 2019)

mudsticks said:


> I think most people feel this really, hence the 'decluttering' industry that has sprung up
> 
> I guess while 'stuff' is still so relatively cheap we will keep on buying - as humans we can't seem to resist shiny new, novel things.
> 
> ...


Evidence is that cyclists shop more than motorists (not that many shopkeepers seem to accept that). It's probably because we're not stuck in traffic as much or wasting money fuelling and serving our vehicles.


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## Julia9054 (10 Jan 2019)

Andy in Germany said:


> This is a Bakfiets:
> 
> View attachment 446488
> 
> ...


Are they easy to balance fully loaded? My worry would be tipping over! I have seen them as three wheelers which look a bit more stable


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## mudsticks (10 Jan 2019)

Andy in Germany said:


> This is a Bakfiets:
> 
> View attachment 446488
> 
> ...



Oh no - and now you have inflamed my lusting for a new thing- more consumerist desires 

Beware the unintended consequence etc etc .

Though i reckon i could definitely justify that one as a 'business cost'


I reckon it would be great for the quads hefting one of those, fully loaded, up and down the Devon lanes.

And as you say you don't even have to unload at market .

Another seed of an idea sown - dang and blast this confounded internet thingy


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## anna_adam (10 Jan 2019)

I am in the middle of both as when I initially started cycling, I used to ride to my university. But now since I'm employed, my cycling pattern is being compromised. Would love to cycle on daily basis, as it's a good exercise for the body along with fitness and health. Have to get back on track, hopefully soon!


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## mudsticks (10 Jan 2019)

mjr said:


> Evidence is that cyclists shop more than motorists (not that many shopkeepers seem to accept that). It's probably because we're not stuck in traffic as much or wasting money fuelling and serving our vehicles.



Yeah but we mostly buy food, and drink, and patronise tea shoppes, fuelling ourselves - and all that is exempt from moral prosecution


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## Andy in Germany (10 Jan 2019)

Julia9054 said:


> Are they easy to balance fully loaded? My worry would be tipping over! I have seen them as three wheelers which look a bit more stable



I know what you mean, but it's dead easy, in fact rather intuitively the faster/heavier it is the more it wants to stay upright: it's like trying to tip a gyroscope.

I only manage to tip it once, about ten years ago, just after buying it: I ran against a low kerbstone with that small front wheel and tipped it over. It has to be said, once it starts to tip it is very hard to stop.

The one I own comes from workcycles in Amsterdam and thy are built like tanks. Mine cost €2000 ten years ago and about a tenth of that since for maintenance.


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## mjr (10 Jan 2019)

Dogtrousers said:


> I'm caught in a trap of laziness/sunk cost fallacy.



View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SlwV7mtsmw




Dogtrousers said:


> "Well I've just spent £££ for new brakes/gold plated zingding swivel actuator /reciprocating spiffler seal on the old heap, I'd better get some use out of it".


That's doubly silly because not using the car will almost always wear the new gold plated zingding spliffer less than using it.



Dogtrousers said:


> [...] So I'm currently looking into the alternatives like Zipcar. They don't look like they'll save me much.


They probably won't unless either cars become more efficient (because they can upgrade more quickly than private owners) or the clubs make less profit (possibly by co-ops like CoCars taking over - any profit is returned to the users) but what they are is more predictable. No sudden £400 lump sum required to supply and fit, say, a rear shock.


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## mudsticks (10 Jan 2019)

Dogtrousers said:


> Its a question of when do I take the plunge and get rid of the car. With each service some new incomprehensible bit needs replacing, so I say "I'll keep the car for another year now I've sunk the cost of a zingding spiffler into it". The problem arises that next year, while the zingding spiffler is still fine it's the wangle joint flanging seals that needs replacing, and they cost £300 a pop. So I shell out for these and then say "seeing as I've just bought new wangle joint flanging seals for it, I may as well keep it another year ..."



Better the Devil you know maybe??
Once you've replaced _ all _the sprocket wobblers, and left threaded valve compression differentials.. Then you've pretty much got yourself a new car.

Having said that, there's also throwing good money after bad...

In _my_ book once the body work is starting to cost big time, then its fond farewells.

A couple of years back. I was really lucky.
My ancient estate car was going to cost £500 to get thru Mot.. Neither too much, nor too little, to be able to make a decisive call on repairs.

Then, someone spotted me a bargain hatchback for £250 - 10 months mot,

And then unbelievably I sold the engine out of the old one for £180.

With cheaper tax and insurance for a smaller car, which was all I needed, I felt like a proper winner for once..

Just occasionally, things land sunny-side up..


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