# "Granny gear" and sexism



## swansonj (11 May 2018)

This cropped up in the "get home after a breakdown" thread, and several people correctly said it was a diversion of a quite useful and interesting thread. So, for anyone interested in discussing this in its own right:

The term "granny gear" is deeply embedded in cycling, is used by most people with no malign intent, but is nonetheless derogatory and sexist. 

The paradigm behind it is that cycling is a macho activity; real cyclists ought to be macho enough to cope without low gears; and not subscribing to that macho culture, or simply prefering easier gears, is distinctively female (and, the imagery conveys, old, feeble females at that). 

Low gears make cycling easier and more enjoyable. It cannot be anything other than sexist to link a desire for cycling to be easy and enjoyable with women. 

It is damaging not just because all prejudice always diminishes all of us, but because the whole sports-derived macho culture of cycling - of which selling ordinary people bikes with unsuitably high gears is part - puts off more people discovering and embracing our wonderful mode of travel, to the detriment of them, us, and the whole of society. 

Discuss (if you wish).


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## vickster (11 May 2018)

And some people believe that a woman might choose to use a breakdown recovery service like ETA just so they can pick up cute taxi drivers  not because they may not have the interest, desire, time or skill to fix a bike at the side of the road


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## vickster (11 May 2018)

Or indeed maybe that a man in shining armour is just sitting at home waiting to collect them should a roadside breakdown occur, hence no need for such a service exists


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## bpsmith (11 May 2018)

Is the term actually sexist?

There’s a massive assumption that Granny refers to Grandmother, rather than Grandfather.

Ageist, fair enough.


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## cosmicbike (11 May 2018)

vickster said:


> Or indeed maybe that a man in shining armour is just sitting at home waiting to collect them should a roadside breakdown occur, hence no need for such a service exists


I have a woman in shining armour. I hope....


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## vickster (11 May 2018)

bpsmith said:


> Is the term actually sexist?
> 
> There’s a massive assumption that Granny refers to Grandmother, rather than Grandfather.
> 
> Ageist, fair enough.


Have you ever heard someone refer to their grandfather as granny (maybe it's normal in Wales)


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## Welsh wheels (11 May 2018)

bpsmith said:


> Is the term actually sexist?
> 
> There’s a massive assumption that Granny refers to Grandmother, rather than Grandfather.
> 
> Ageist, fair enough.


More ageist than sexist I'd say


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## Welsh wheels (11 May 2018)

vickster said:


> Have you ever heard someone refer to their grandfather as granny (maybe it's normal in Wales)


Granny in wales can just as easily refer to a elderly female sheep


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## Pale Rider (11 May 2018)

When someone posted about 'granny gear' being sexist/ageist a while ago I thought it was a wind-up.


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## bpsmith (11 May 2018)

vickster said:


> Have you ever heard someone refer to their grandfather as granny (maybe it's normal in Wales)


The irony of being racist in a thread complaining about sexism is not lost on me.


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## Welsh wheels (11 May 2018)

Pale Rider said:


> When someone posted about 'granny gear' being sexist/ageist a while ago I thought it was a wind-up.


Aye, important not to take ourselves to seriously (as my granny would say) And my granny also wouldn't claim she could cycle with big gears


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## bpsmith (11 May 2018)

On the ageist point, does anyone think the following title is ageist against the younger folk who haven’t got the “experience” from decades of cycling?

https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/watching-an-experienced-cyclist-on-our-roads.233778/


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## vickster (11 May 2018)

bpsmith said:


> The irony of being racist in a thread complaining about sexism is not lost on me.


Huh? Not racist, you live in Wales don’t you and made a comment about granny being a name for grandfather. Not one I’ve ever heard in England, so I wondered if it’s maybe a Welsh thing?!


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## bpsmith (11 May 2018)

vickster said:


> Huh? Not racist, you live in Wales don’t you and made a comment about granny being a name for grandmother. Not one I’ve ever heard in England, so I wondered if it’s maybe a Welsh thing?!


Glad you responded in that manner.

I was just trying to demonstrate that Intention is everything. You didn’t intend to be racist, and I didn’t genuinely think that, but using similar words with a different intention can be racist.

My point being that I have honestly never heard anyone use the term granny gear with the intention of offending anyone female, older, or both. More often than not, they are referring to themselves using that gear and not being negative usually.

Edit: the same goes for my post referencing the experienced rider thread. Zero negative intention, but the same argument could be applied.


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## Ianboydsnr (11 May 2018)

My wife uses the term, and she really is a granny, she doesn’t think the term derogatory, I was actually thinking of fitting a granny gear to my road bike, I am a grandad, and I don’t think the term is fixed by sex,

Is it derogatory if a granny uses the term for low gearing?

I think it only derogatory if the meaning of the person who says it meant it to be derogatory, I don’t think it automatic to assume, many words can be used that are derogatory, and most can’t be changed or banned, jumping straight into offended on someone else’s behalf is a mistake imho,


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## Spinney (11 May 2018)

Perhaps Grannies are the ones sensible enough to fit a gear that enables them to enjoy their cycling, without being ruled by expectations based on age or gender?


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## Sharky (11 May 2018)

It seems that us grandads are going to be homeless as we get older. Searched the www, but they only build annexes for granny's.


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## deptfordmarmoset (11 May 2018)

User13710 said:


> Isn't it interesting how defensive people can get when asked to consider the everyday language that they use without thinking, with a view to maybe revising what they say in order to be a bit more sensitive? It's nothing to be proud of, being stuck in the rut of the linguistic past, after all.


Also, it's interesting how there was a similar reaction when mother-in-law jokes came under fire. Can't say that I've missed them since they went right out of fashion.


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## pjd57 (11 May 2018)

It's a general term , which is used by most with no ageism or sexism intended.

Most of the grannies I know who cycle have no more bother on hills than I do.


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## pjd57 (11 May 2018)

User13710 said:


> That alone does not answer the question posed, nor does it mean we can't consider whether it's still acceptable to use the term.


The OP states that it is derogatory and sexist, not as an opinion but as a fact.

If it is their opinion , fine they are entitled to it.
But they can't expect everyone else to support their views


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## screenman (11 May 2018)

The grannie gear was invented by Albert Grannie, hence the name. In finding his new bike was making his legs hurt going up the steep hill by his house, he decided to experiment and found that changing the front ring was easier than changing the rear.


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## Kajjal (11 May 2018)

Is wales the country 200 miles west of England ?

As a ripped, bronzed cycling Adonis my bikes don’t have granny gears only the king of gears it takes a real man to push.


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## pjd57 (11 May 2018)

User13710 said:


> I don't think that is what 'discuss' means.


Stating that it is derogatory etc didn't seem to leave much room for the discussion.


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## Blue Hills (11 May 2018)

And on the topic of THIS thread, I don't think it is a term which denigrates women.

I live up a great big hill and think the first time I heard it it was used, directed at me, in good humour, by a bloke walking up it. I took it in good humour. I have heard the word used by women. Including by one on this thread who seems to be trying to denigrate its usage. Talk about gameplaying.

Nowt so queer (hey another thread) as folk.

I am pretty sure I have heard it used by experienced female cyclists on rides I have lead.

I think the term is often used by the users of such gears. Of both sexes. So hard to see how it could be used in a derogatory fashion.

As for it being ageist, the term can commonly be seen used by folks on the ctc forum. A very sane and helpful place. And they would probably be the first to admit that the ctc has a certain age profile.

I returned to this topic musing on a bus going across a northern moor and other "possible" sexist transport terms floated across my mind.

"deadman's handle".

?

In short, I would relax swanson. Or you may find yourself being used.

Gawd help us all if this is the burning issue of the day.


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## Smokin Joe (11 May 2018)

I think we should call it a MAMIL gear.


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## Brads (11 May 2018)

Good god almighty.

A joke thread surely ? What the hell has went wrong with this country when this is a thing ?

My Granny couldn`t shove a 52 tooth front up a mahoosive hill, so she would need a granny gear.


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## screenman (11 May 2018)

If it was called a low gear would that be derogatory to people with the name Low?


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## swansonj (11 May 2018)

I thought I'd been reasonably clear in the OP, but just in case:

The vast majority of people who use this term (including myself for many years) clearly do not intend it to be derogatory or sexist.

That does not (IMO) stop it from being both those things.


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## Smokin Joe (11 May 2018)

swansonj said:


> That does not (IMO) stop it from being both those things.



It's neither of those things, unless you're looking for a way to be offended.


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## swansonj (11 May 2018)

Blue Hills said:


> Please answer the question posed.
> 
> Do you think"granny gear" is a sexist term which denigrates women?
> 
> If so, why?


It's not as simple as "denigrates women". Using low gears is actually a very sensible thing for most people to do. There are complex layers to do with the unstated implicit assumptions that (a) cycling is supposed to be macho and hard, not easy, and (b) therefore not suitable for women.


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## Blue Hills (11 May 2018)

Smokin Joe said:


> It's neither of those things, unless you're looking for a way to be offended.


Folk looking to be offended is I fear an all too common thing these days smokin joe.

It's the new bullying.

While the important issues in society are resolutely ignored.

Fresh air and more cycling, in whatever gear, can help with some necessary perspective.

all the best from me and my 22T


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## Ian H (11 May 2018)

It is a derogatory term, but it has been adopted by those against whom it was used. 



Smokin Joe said:


> I think we should call it a MAMIL gear.



MAMILs seem mostly to be exactly the kind who use the term sneeringly (whilst riding compact chainsets and dinner-plate cogs).

It's always good to pause and consider the language we use, though (perhaps it's my age) I don't think this is terribly pernicious.


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## slowmotion (11 May 2018)

swansonj said:


> It's not as simple as "denigrates women". Using low gears is actually a very sensible thing for most people to do. There are complex layers to do with the unstated implicit assumptions that (a) cycling is supposed to be macho and hard, not easy, and (b) therefore not suitable for women.


Sorry, that's just crap.


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## Tin Pot (11 May 2018)

bpsmith said:


> Is the term actually sexist?
> 
> There’s a massive assumption that Granny refers to Grandmother, rather than Grandfather.
> 
> Ageist, fair enough.


And so we move to gender stereotyping.


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## Tin Pot (11 May 2018)

Ian H said:


> MAMILs seem mostly to be exactly the kind who use the term sneeringly (whilst riding compact chainsets and dinner-plate cogs).
> .



More stereotyping...


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## screenman (11 May 2018)

Ian H said:


> It is a derogatory term, but it has been adopted by those against whom it was used.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You seem to have a low opinion of cyclist like me who wear lycra on every ride.

I wonder if dogs are offended by the term dog eared.


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## Tin Pot (11 May 2018)

swansonj said:


> Using low gears is actually a very sensible thing for most people to do.



SHHHHHHHHH!

Let them have their power plays and daft terms about staying on the big ring while burning all their matches, we can cruise by later.


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## Fab Foodie (11 May 2018)

I get the gist of the argument here, but two of the most vehement cycling feminist I know also refer to using their lowest gear as ‘deploying Grandma’.
I guess they were also wrong. Maybe there are shades of wrong depending in who uses it. If not I shall take them to task next time I ride with them....


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## Wixsteman (11 May 2018)

I had never heard that term before joining the forum. I don’t like it, so I won’t use it. Not because I think it’s offensive or sexist just a bit silly.


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## deptfordmarmoset (11 May 2018)

bpsmith said:


> I was just trying to demonstrate that Intention is everything.


So when some theoretical inventor of the term in the past decided to use a word strongly associated with gender and age to describe what could have been a technical or a descriptive term (like pretty much the whole of the rest of the bike), a term which caught on, what do you think that theoretical inventor may have intended? It's a distinctly unneutral term. Why do you think it caught on?

Could it be that it fitted smoothly into a set of commonly understood background assumptions, assumptions which may be just a tad outdated and unnecessary?


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## Serge (11 May 2018)

swansonj said:


> It's not as simple as "denigrates women". Using low gears is actually a very sensible thing for most people to do. There are complex layers to do with the unstated implicit assumptions that (a) cycling is supposed to be macho and hard, not easy, and (b) therefore not suitable for women.


I agree entirely.

The term itself is explicitly derogatory, that is the purpose of using it: "you are not capable of climbing that hill in anything other than the lowest gear available therefore you are a lesser person than me. You are an old woman."

Just because it has become a regularly used term in the cycling community does not make it acceptable. I'm sure we can all think of terms to describe ethnic minorities in the 1950's and 1960's that would rightly cause absolute outrage if they were used on this site today.

Shall we all just follow the Zeitgeist like every generation before us?


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## Tin Pot (11 May 2018)

I entered the water at Ironman UK with a woman beside me old enough to be a granny, I didn’t ask about her progeny but I did wish her a good race as I did all those around me. I’m an okay swimmer as it happens, and the event photos show her leaving the water still on my shoulder.

I attended the awards ceremony after the race had finished. 

She qualified in her age group for the 70.3 World Championship at Chattanooga....and qualified for Kona.


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## Slick (11 May 2018)

Tin Pot said:


> I entered the water at Ironman UK with a woman beside me old enough to be a granny, I didn’t ask about her progeny but I did wish her a good race as I did all those around me. I’m an okay swimmer as it happens, and the event photos show her leaving the water still on my shoulder.
> 
> I attended the awards ceremony after the race had finished.
> 
> She qualified in her age group for the 70.3 World Championship at Chattanooga....and qualified for Kona.


Why were you surprised?


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## Ming the Merciless (11 May 2018)

MAMIL now there is an ageist sexist derogatory term that should be banned.


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## slowmotion (11 May 2018)

User13710 said:


> It is a term that many of us find ourselves using, sure, but I think it is interesting to reflect on where it comes from, which is the idea that old women somehow embody weakness. It is certainly grounded in a bit of an insult, in the same way that referring to someone as 'Grandad' implies that he is feeble and past it. I don't think the word alone is worth a huge fuss, but then again I do notice how defensive certain types of people instantly become when asked to even think about the general idea of sexism/ageism in their everyday language.


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## Ming the Merciless (11 May 2018)

User13710 said:


> Funny, isn't it, how 'man' is claimed to be a stand-in term for 'humanity' (the ascent of man, et al.), until it refers to something a bit derogatory then the tune changes.



Indeed it derogatory in the same extent as granny gear.


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## classic33 (11 May 2018)

If the Granny gear is the front ring, does that mean the Granpa gear is on the rear?


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## slowmotion (11 May 2018)

swansonj said:


> I don't think it's "offence" that I feel. More regret that we damage the cause of spreading the benefits and joys of cycling by the attitudes we convey.


I engaged the smallest chain ring on my triple today. It got me up a hill. I didn't feel like I had even entered the spectrum of male sexual abuse. As I clicked the gears, I did wonder if I was an even bigger monster than those filthy types who hold a door open for women. It was awful.


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## Serge (11 May 2018)

Enough of this, I'm off to reread the Mickle Method.


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## Profpointy (11 May 2018)

This thread is just a wind-up ... isn't it?


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## swansonj (11 May 2018)

Profpointy said:


> This thread is just a wind-up ... isn't it?


No.


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## Donger (11 May 2018)

Arguing for the sake of arguing?


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## bpsmith (11 May 2018)

Tin Pot said:


> And so we move to gender stereotyping.


Perhaps we should take time to consider everything we choose in life.


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## bpsmith (11 May 2018)

YukonBoy said:


> MAMIL now there is an ageist sexist derogatory term that should be banned.


What about that great cycling brand, Fat Lad at the Back?


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## slowmotion (11 May 2018)

It's a wind-up. Quite fun while it lasts though.


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## bpsmith (11 May 2018)

Thinking about it, I don’t think it’s a phrase I have ever used tbh. Us young folk wouldn’t be seen dead on a triple!


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## Serge (11 May 2018)

bpsmith said:


> Thinking about it, I don’t think it’s a phrase I have ever used tbh. Us young folk wouldn’t be seen dead on a triple!


I must admit, I'd never heard it until I started reading this forum.


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## Ianboydsnr (11 May 2018)

bpsmith said:


> Thinking about it, I don’t think it’s a phrase I have ever used tbh. Us young folk wouldn’t be seen dead on a triple!


That’s offensive to triplets


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## tyred (11 May 2018)

My Granny rides 52/48 with a 14-18 block and complains about all the young slow coaches getting in her way and slowing her down.


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## bpsmith (11 May 2018)

Ianboydsnr said:


> That’s offensive to triplets


I have read that multiple times and can’t quite decide which of the jokes I am smiling at.


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## Moderators (11 May 2018)

Mod's Note:
numerous off topic posts have been removed.
Please discuss the topic not the poster.
Thank you!


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## Vantage (11 May 2018)

This thread is ridiculous.


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## Ming the Merciless (12 May 2018)

bpsmith said:


> Thinking about it, I don’t think it’s a phrase I have ever used tbh. Us young folk wouldn’t be seen dead on a triple!



And us old folks would not be seen on anything with gears. Youngsters today, don't even know they have been born.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (12 May 2018)

Me in my granny gear


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## flake99please (12 May 2018)

Pro Tour Punditry said:


> Me in my granny gear
> View attachment 408752



Freemasons meeting?


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## Fab Foodie (12 May 2018)

Vantage said:


> This thread is ridiculous.


Welcome to Cycle-Chat... have a nice day.


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## Fab Foodie (12 May 2018)

Pro Tour Punditry said:


> Me in my granny gear
> View attachment 408752


@rich p you may have competition....


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## slowmotion (12 May 2018)

Fab Foodie said:


> @rich p you may have competition....


Nah. There's no crisp packet in sight.


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## PaulSB (12 May 2018)

bpsmith said:


> Thinking about it, I don’t think it’s a phrase I have ever used tbh. Us young folk wouldn’t be seen dead on a triple!



That presumes only triples have a low gear. In fact ever cyclist has a granny gear - it’s the lowest gear on your bike.

When I’m unsure about something like this I ask three good friends of mine - my wife and two other women. I’ll do this later and go with their opinion.

I’m also going to ask them about the term “boy look.” I’m not on a wind up with this.

I don’t know how widespread “boy look” is but locally it’s used when someone fails to find something which is staring them in the face. Based on the principle if you ask a male child to find for example his shoes, he might open his bedroom door, look in and claim he can’t find them!!!!

In my circle “boy look” is used by men and women to describe anyone’s failure to find something which is obvious.

Currently my opinion is while I understand the argument against the term “granny gear” I think it daft to suggest it’s sexist or ageist. I’ll let you know if this changes.


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## rikki (12 May 2018)

Have not heard "boy look", but it's clearly the opposite of a "mother's look". As in "why don't you take a mother's look" or "it took a mother's look".
In my circle you do not have to be a mother or female to "take a mother's look".


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## bpsmith (12 May 2018)

PaulSB said:


> That presumes only triples have a low gear. In fact ever cyclist has a granny gear - it’s the lowest gear on your bike.
> 
> When I’m unsure about something like this I ask three good friends of mine - my wife and two other women. I’ll do this later and go with their opinion.
> 
> ...


I just went with the definition for granny gear, further up the thread. Wasn’t my place to argue. Anyway, @YukonBoy got the idea that I was just having a laugh and responded accordingly. 

I have never heard of Boy Look. Totally get the concept though and that’s generally true in my experience. I wouldn’t take offence at it, whether directly applied to me or indirectly.

To argue otherwise would be as daft as this thread.


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## slowmotion (12 May 2018)

Is the "Boy Look" something like The Bay City Rollers? It's not a good one.


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## Julia9054 (12 May 2018)

bpsmith said:


> I just went with the definition for granny gear, further up the thread. Wasn’t my place to argue. Anyway, @YukonBoy got the idea that I was just having a laugh and responded accordingly.
> 
> I have never heard of Boy Look. Totally get the concept though and that’s generally true in my experience. I wouldn’t take offence at it, whether directly applied to me or indirectly.
> 
> To argue otherwise would be as daft as this thread.


Boy look (man looking is the phrase I've heard) and man flu are part of a culture of infantilising adult males - watch any advert or household products featuring a family. I have a male friend who finds it all very irritating so i now don't use such phrases.


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## welsh dragon (12 May 2018)

This is so funny. I can't remember the last time a thread generated the need to have so many posts by so many members modified and all because of the term 'granny wheel' and people finding it objectionable. Def PC gone mad.

I shall continue to watch this thread for the entertainment value.


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## User16625 (12 May 2018)

swansonj said:


> This cropped up in the "get home after a breakdown" thread, and several people correctly said it was a diversion of a quite useful and interesting thread. So, for anyone interested in discussing this in its own right:
> 
> The term "granny gear" is deeply embedded in cycling, is used by most people with no malign intent, but is nonetheless derogatory and sexist.
> 
> ...



-1

Cant stand all this "womens rights" crap thats so hot on the agenda these days. I mean its literally got you (OP) stating that the term granny gear is sexist, FFS. In sports men are naturally more powerful, so associating something thats physically easier to women isn't sexist.


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## jayonabike (12 May 2018)

Maybe CycleChat needs a new sub forum 
“Millennial and snowflake chat”


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## steveindenmark (12 May 2018)

I have never heard of anyone being offended by the term " Granny gear". I would think for it to be derogatory, the user would be trying to belittle the granny gear. But normally, the opposite applies. "Thank god I had a granny gear going up Stelvio". The people who would object are those fools who object to blackboard, whiteboard and much loved childrens comforter, the golliwog.


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## Slick (12 May 2018)

PaulSB said:


> That presumes only triples have a low gear. In fact ever cyclist has a granny gear - it’s the lowest gear on your bike.
> 
> When I’m unsure about something like this I ask three good friends of mine - my wife and two other women. I’ll do this later and go with their opinion.
> 
> ...


Never heard the term boy look, but my wife has used the term man clean before.


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## Mr Celine (12 May 2018)

PaulSB said:


> That presumes only triples have a low gear. In fact ever cyclist has a granny gear - it’s the lowest gear on your bike.



I've only ever heard the inner ring of a triple described as a granny ring or granny gear. Both my bikes have granny rings and I'm not afraid to use them.


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## Inertia (12 May 2018)

steveindenmark said:


> I have never heard of anyone being offended by the term " Granny gear". I would think for it to be derogatory, the user would be trying to belittle the granny gear. But normally, the opposite applies. "Thank god I had a granny gear going up Stelvio". The people who would object are those fools who object to blackboard, whiteboard and much loved childrens comforter, the golliwog.


You have had the opp experience to me, its been used as an insult if someone dared to go into the granny gear.

Has anyone ever objected to blackboard and whiteboard outside of the Daily Mail, comments section.


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## Ianboydsnr (12 May 2018)

Never heard the term boy look, or mothers look, 

I admit that when my brother try’s to read small writing without his glasses, calling him Mr Maggoo, so maybe I shouldn’t, 

Anyone care to be offended on his behalf?


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## Inertia (12 May 2018)

RideLikeTheStig said:


> -1
> 
> Cant stand all this "womens rights" crap thats so hot on the agenda these days. I mean its literally got you (OP) stating that the term granny gear is sexist, FFS. In sports men are naturally more powerful, so associating something thats physically easier to women isn't sexist.


So you are saying associating physical things that are easier to do with women/old people, isn't sexist/ageist?


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## Tim Hall (12 May 2018)

RideLikeTheStig said:


> -1
> 
> Cant stand all this "womens rights" crap thats so hot on the agenda these days.


Uh huh. Women! Know your place!


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## Ianboydsnr (12 May 2018)

Inertia said:


> You have had the opp experience to me, its been used as an insult if someone dared to go into the granny gear.
> 
> Has anyone ever objected to blackboard and whiteboard outside of the Daily Mail, comments section.



Would it have been any less of a derogatory insult if the person had replaced the words granny gear with big gear?


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## Inertia (12 May 2018)

Ianboydsnr said:


> Would it have been any less of a derogatory insult if the person had replaced the words granny gear with big gear?


nope

Edit, after thinking about it, it wouldn’t be more of an insult to me at least.


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## gbb (12 May 2018)

My opinion.
I don't use the term granny ring. Not because I consider it sexist or ageist but I always used 'the small ring' or similar. Just the way it evolved for me personally. 

I have no problem with the term granny ring. I don't consider it sexist or ageist.

I've ever ever ever heard anyone in the real world complain it was sexist or ageist, the only place you'll hear someone raise the subject is on the internet.

If I did use the term in the real world, in the unlikely event of a single person complaining about the term, I simply wouldn't use it in front of them, just as a mark of respect. It wouldn't stop me using a word that IMO, has no malice in its use.

The internet isn't the real world...thankfully.


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## Inertia (12 May 2018)

gbb said:


> I have no problem with the term granny ring. I don't consider it sexist or ageist.
> 
> I've ever ever ever heard anyone in the real world complain it was sexist or ageist, the only place you'll hear someone raise the subject is on the internet.


I’ve not actually heard anyone complain personally about it ever.

It may not be sexist or ageist, but if it’s not, How do do we think the term came about?


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## mustang1 (12 May 2018)

I just call it low gear, not granny gear. 

I don't shave my legs.

If I'm broken down, I make my own way back .

If someone else (SO, friend, relative, male or female) are broken down and I can help, then I will. 

Everything else is too complicated for me (aka I've never really thought about all this male/female/black/white stuff). I will occasionally stop for women more than men though if they have broken down but only because I find them more attractive.


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## gbb (12 May 2018)

Inertia said:


> I’ve not actually heard anyone complain personally about it ever.
> 
> It may not be sexist or ageist, but if it’s not, How do do we think the term came about?


That doesn't if I'm honest, concern me. There are no groups, peoples or relatives of people that were (apparently it seems although I doubt it) offended , so it's a non discussion AFAIC. It seems to me some people are getting to the point of being offended...but don't know why. I'd happily listen and reconsider if someone can show me how or why anyone actually was.


----------



## Tin Pot (12 May 2018)

Slick said:


> Why were you surprised?



Because being twenty years my senior and keeping up with me in the swim is unusual, and I’m pretty sure that qualifying for both world championships is unusual.

...What moral high ground are you fishing for?


----------



## Kajjal (12 May 2018)

[QUOTE 5241081, member: 43827"]I live in Wales and went to England once. It was amazing, I just crossed the border and was in England. Didn't need to go anything like 200 miles.[/QUOTE]

That was from Ali G explaining about the UK


----------



## Tin Pot (12 May 2018)

mustang1 said:


> I don't shave my legs.


Just throw away those watts!


----------



## Tin Pot (12 May 2018)

bpsmith said:


> Perhaps we should take time to consider everything we choose in life.
> View attachment 408742



You missed:

An autocratic ruler with little political credibility, but with self-delusions of grandeur.


----------



## gbb (12 May 2018)

User13710 said:


> As usual, the offence is mostly being taken by those who are fed up with 'all this "women's rights" crap'. It's very telling, both about them and about this forum recently.


A clearer statement might help.. are you talking about me or other subjects recently.


----------



## oldwheels (12 May 2018)

What a load of cobblers. As in many other terms there is no malice intended but some look for insult everywhere.


----------



## Blue Hills (12 May 2018)

swansonj said:


> I thought I'd been reasonably clear in the OP, but just in case:
> 
> The vast majority of people who use this term (including myself for many years) clearly do not intend it to be derogatory or sexist.
> 
> That does not (IMO) stop it from being both those things.


Please note, i have not got beyond this point on the thread yet - had a peaceful night.

I can't help but ask swanson, if you used the phrase guilt free for so long,what happened?

Some sort of epiphany? Or corrective lesson?

By the by, if you ride with mixed groups (always a nice idea) have you run the phrase past them?


----------



## Tin Pot (12 May 2018)

oldwheels said:


> What a load of cobblers. As in many other terms there is no malice intended but some look for insult everywhere.



Because conscious intent to cause harm is the only way in which prejudice is promoted and accepted.


----------



## mustang1 (12 May 2018)

User13710 said:


> As usual, the offence is mostly being taken by those who are fed up with 'all this "women's rights" crap'. It's very telling, both about them and about this forum recently.


I'm quite looking forward to equal sexism opportunities when the ship is about to sink. No longer do men have to wait for all the women to get off the ship first.


----------



## mustang1 (12 May 2018)

gbb said:


> My opinion.
> I don't use the term granny ring. Not because I consider it sexist or ageist but I always used 'the small ring' or similar. Just the way it evolved for me personally.
> 
> I have no problem with the term granny ring. I don't consider it sexist or ageist.
> ...



I call it the feminist gear. 
Or
The-guy-who-just-got-fired-coz-he's-too-old gear. 
Or simply:
Climbing gear.


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (12 May 2018)

mustang1 said:


> I'm quite looking forward to equal sexism opportunities when the ship is about to sink. No longer do men have to wait for all the women to get off the ship first.



They don't - https://www.theguardian.com/politic...olly-curtis/2012/jan/16/costa-concordia-women


----------



## Mr Celine (12 May 2018)

Mrs Celine has a granny ring on her bikes too. It never occured to her that the term is sexist - she thought it was called a granny ring because it has fewer teeth - a bit like grandmothers tend to have.


----------



## Slick (12 May 2018)

Tin Pot said:


> Because being twenty years my senior and keeping up with me in the swim is unusual, and I’m pretty sure that qualifying for both world championships is unusual.
> 
> ...What moral high ground are you fishing for?


Your kidding right? This thread, like many others is one constant battle for the high moral ground, and you think I'm fishing.

My only point was 20 years senior and a lot more in some cases wouldn't preclude most people I know from being competitive.

That is all.


----------



## Slick (12 May 2018)

Mr Celine said:


> Mrs Celine has a granny ring on her bikes too. It never occured to her that the term is sexist - she thought it was called a granny ring because it has fewer teeth - a bit like grandmothers tend to have.


 I like it.


----------



## slowmotion (12 May 2018)

I went to a place near Wales last weekend. We walked up a hill called Lord Hereford's Knob. It was bigger than mine, and I took offence. A group of friends are campaigning for it to be torn down.


----------



## deptfordmarmoset (12 May 2018)

[QUOTE 5241249, member: 45"]
We can't, so I don't see a problem with it being discussed. It's weird though that there's a hypersensitivity around simply raising the question.[/QUOTE]
I think it's because it has been an accepted humorous term and has remained there in the unconscious without anyone ever really stopping to consider why a part of a bike is named after something old and female. Asking the question disturbs that unconsciousness.

I'm going to call it a ''little in front, big behind gear''....


----------



## User6179 (12 May 2018)

slowmotion said:


> I went to a place near Wales last weekend. We walked up a hill called Lord Hereford's Knob. It was bigger than mine, and I took offence. A group of friends are campaigning for it to be torn down.



I sat on lord Herefords knob once and had my lunch.........


----------



## slowmotion (12 May 2018)

Eddy said:


> I sat on lord Herefords knob once and had my lunch.........


It's a great spot. We had blue skies and brilliant sunshine as we ate our sandwiches, without a breath of wind. A glider swished by below us as the pilot sought out a thermal on the next ridge. Anyway, I was miffed by the size of the Knob compared to mine. It simply has to be erased.


----------



## gbb (12 May 2018)

Mr Celine said:


> Mrs Celine has a granny ring on her bikes too. It never occured to her that the term is sexist - she thought it was called a granny ring because it has fewer teeth - a bit like grandmothers tend to have.


And there you probably have the origin of the expression...


----------



## Salar (12 May 2018)

Eddy said:


> I sat on lord Herefords knob once and had my lunch.........



And it's only four miles from Three Cocks.


----------



## classic33 (12 May 2018)

Not just bikes
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/956952-granny-gear.html


----------



## MontyVeda (12 May 2018)

I wasn't aware of the term 'granny gear' until I joined CC... to me there's a big ring, middle ring and little ring... and i spend most of my time on the middle ring.


----------



## slowmotion (12 May 2018)

Salar said:


> And it's only four miles from Three Cocks.


No need to twist the knife...


----------



## mjr (12 May 2018)

MontyVeda said:


> I wasn't aware of the term 'granny gear' until I joined CC... to me there's a big ring, middle ring and little ring... and i spend most of my time on the middle ring.


Take your smutty double entendres somewhere else, please!


----------



## Tin Pot (12 May 2018)

Slick said:


> Your kidding right? This thread, like many others is one constant battle for the high moral ground, and you think I'm fishing.
> 
> My only point was 20 years senior and a lot more in some cases wouldn't preclude most people I know from being competitive.
> 
> That is all.



And my point...that for those use “granny ring” to indicate that use of the small ring is for the weak are mistaken...was pretty well made, I thought.

If most people you know in their sixties can beat me out of the water over 3.8km I’m obviously not as good as I think I am...which wouldn’t surprise me  I’m good for a triathlete anyway :P

Plus, I thought it was an interesting tale which I rarely have the opportunity to relate. Funny thing was that I’d also lined up with her at another race earlier in the year...she didn’t even try to pretend to remember me when I said hello


----------



## Inertia (12 May 2018)

[QUOTE 5241273, member: 9609"]Fair enough, but it now appears to have been considered by many and the overwhelming conclusion is it is neither sexist or ageist.

I suppose there may be some hypersensitivity around such subjects but it is verging on extremism and that is something far far worse.[/QUOTE]
I've seen a lot of people say its not, but noone has said what the expression means if its not sexist/ageist.

I actually think it is an interesting thread. Its interesting that more people seem upset at being asked to consider if the term is sexist/ageist, than people offended by the term. In fact I'm not sure anyone has said they are offended.


----------



## Tin Pot (12 May 2018)

mjr said:


> Take your smutty double entendres somewhere else, please!



It’s like when someone asked me if I had seen ‘The Ring’, and I didn’t know it was a cult Japanese horror movie. That was one waste bowl of popcorn, I can tell you.


----------



## classic33 (12 May 2018)

What about a Great Granny Gear?


----------



## keithmac (12 May 2018)

In all the time I've ever heard the phrase I've never linked it to old women, some people just seem to find fault just for the sake of it.

I'll get me coat.....


----------



## classic33 (12 May 2018)

keithmac said:


> In all the time I've ever heard the phrase I've never linked it to old women, some people just seem to find fault just for the sake of it.
> 
> I'll get me coat.....


I want to know if a Granny were to use the granny gear, and admit to it, would she be sexist/ageist?


----------



## Inertia (12 May 2018)

keithmac said:


> In all the time I've ever heard the phrase I've never linked it to old women, some people just seem to find fault just for the sake of it.


and some people seem to enjoy entering the thread to find fault with the motivations of others, so far we have had:

its PC gone mad
"womens rights" crap
a battle for the high moral ground
and now some people just seem to find fault just for the sake of it
no-one is forced to think about it if they don't want to. Rather than discuss the topic we get people trying to shut the discussion down by mocking or putting down other posters. If its blatantly not sexist I'm sure it would be easy to disprove rather than just attacking other people motivations.


----------



## Ianboydsnr (12 May 2018)

Inertia said:


> and some people seem to enjoy entering the thread to find fault with the motivations of others, so far we have had:
> 
> its PC gone mad
> "womens rights" crap
> ...



Or they could just be giving their opinion, 

Where is this mocking, or putting down?


----------



## Katherine (12 May 2018)

*Mod note*
Please keep the discussion to cycling using the smallest ring and what you think is the best language to use.


----------



## Wixsteman (12 May 2018)

Just curious if it was called the grampa ring would this thread exist?


----------



## smutchin (12 May 2018)

Wixsteman said:


> Just curious if it was called the grampa ring would this thread exist?



By coincidence, a few days ago entirely unrelated to this discussion, I wondered in an idle moment why we call it the granny ring and not the grandpa ring. And I made a decision there and then to stop using the term.

I think the point has been made several times in this thread that it’s not about being offended but simply a case of thinking a bit more about the language we use and the underlying attitudes it reflects - even if the intent is not overtly sexist, there’s an implied statement about power and privilege. It’s actually not that hard to avoid using gendered terms in situations like this where gender is irrelevant.


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## Fab Foodie (12 May 2018)

Can we call it the baby ring?


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## smutchin (12 May 2018)

It’s worth looking at other idioms and metaphors that use the terms granny and grandfather - eg a grandfather clause in a contract is one designed to offer protection. When something is described as the granddaddy it’s an archetype, something to be respected. 

Compare and contrast ‘granny bashing’, ‘granny dumping’, ‘granny flat’ - why don’t we use grandpa in these phrases? What does this tell us about society’s underlying attitude to grandmothers?


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## Wixsteman (12 May 2018)

As stated previously I had never heard of it before cc. I don’t intend to use it as I think it’s naff. Is it just snobbery to ridicule people who use the bottom gear because they struggle uphill. I don’t know if females use this term or not when they cycle past me going uphill. 

I had never heard of mamil either which I might be as I have padded shorts and just bought a xl cycling top, which made my wife chuckle


----------



## Smokin Joe (12 May 2018)

smutchin said:


> I
> Compare and contrast ‘granny bashing’, ‘granny dumping’, ‘granny flat’ - why don’t we use grandpa in these phrases? What does this tell us about society’s underlying attitude to grandmothers?


Possibly because women live longer than men so there are far more grannies than grandpa's about.


----------



## swansonj (12 May 2018)

Blue Hills said:


> Please note, i have not got beyond this point on the thread yet - had a peaceful night.
> 
> I can't help but ask swanson, if you used the phrase guilt free for so long,what happened?
> 
> ...


Fair question.

No epiphany - more a gradual dawning. Self awareness of how much we are unthinkingly products and reflectors of the culture around us is a slow and painful process.


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## swansonj (12 May 2018)

Fab Foodie said:


> Can we call it the baby ring?


We can, if we want to carry on disseminating the message that climbing hills sensibly and enjoyably is only for weak people


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## Wixsteman (12 May 2018)

W


swansonj said:


> We can, if we want to carry on disseminating the message that climbing hills sensibly and enjoyably is only for weak people


we could call it the sensible ring


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## night rider (12 May 2018)

oh ffs .


----------



## PK99 (12 May 2018)

smutchin said:


> It’s worth looking at other idioms and metaphors that use the terms granny and grandfather - eg a grandfather clause in a contract is one designed to offer protection. When something is described as the granddaddy it’s an archetype, something to be respected.
> 
> Compare and contrast ‘granny bashing’, ‘granny dumping’, ‘granny flat’ - why don’t we use grandpa in these phrases?* What does this tell us about society’s underlying attitude to grandmothers*?



I think it says something positive.

Granny bashing and dumping are perjorative terms toward the person doing the bashing or dumping. The terms are protective toward Granny.

Granny flats are a way of providing a safe, semi independent living space to an elderly parent - most often granny after grandad has died.


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## screenman (12 May 2018)

swansonj said:


> We can, if we want to carry on disseminating the message that climbing hills sensibly and enjoyably is only for weak people



What is sensible climbing, sounds like a new invention that I have not heard about.


----------



## Crankarm (12 May 2018)

This thread is for people with too much time on their hands.


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## swansonj (12 May 2018)

Crankarm said:


> This thread is for people with too much time on their hands.


True. But hardly a distinguishing factor from every other thread on Cyclechat


----------



## derrick (12 May 2018)

This has got more b******s on than the Brexit thread.


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## classic33 (12 May 2018)

Wixsteman said:


> Just curious if it was called the grampa ring would this thread exist?


Grandpa Ring is on the rear.


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## steveindenmark (12 May 2018)

Inertia said:


> You have had the opp experience to me, its been used as an insult if someone dared to go into the granny gear.
> 
> Has anyone ever objected to blackboard and whiteboard outside of the Daily Mail, comments section.


But if total tossers are offended. It doesnt matter.


----------



## Inertia (12 May 2018)

steveindenmark said:


> But if total tossers are offended. It doesnt matter.


Not sure what you are saying.


----------



## marzjennings (12 May 2018)

Is the term granny gear sexist, yes, of course it is. It's a cheap attempt at humour that turned into a general term for the lowest gear on a triple. No one worried about this until someone who isn't a granny raised their pedantic finger.

Is it ok to call out weakness in riding buddies when observed? Abso-fecking-lutley! During no-drop training rides all occurrences of 'wussdom' will be ridiculed and subsequently recalled during post-ride beers. 

But I'm done with well meaning people who attempt to predict the offensive impact of my language and actions when then have zero skin in the game. With it now being impossible to predict the appropriate objective pronoun to use when talking with someone new my measure for offensive language will be based on direct feedback from those who feel offended.


----------



## Andrew_P (12 May 2018)

Strangely I can recall the first time I heard the expression in a local bike shop buying my first bike in September 2009 the bloke was explaining the difference between a hybrid with a compact 10 and one with a triple.

I knew instantly why it had the nickname weak and old need that gear was my interpretation as well as the delivery from the bike shop bloke.

Not sure what that says about my view on Granny but I also recall I had an instant imagination of a grey haired granny spinning up a hill at 3mph.

Surely everyone has this view?

Not really sure it's offensive, but it was the driver behind compact doubles and the 32t cassettes I assume due to blokes in bike shop and forums pointing at triples with a sneer or giggle (which possibly proves it is offensive) and people like me falling for it and picking a compact,

It's quite interesting challenging language.


----------



## Pat "5mph" (12 May 2018)

User13710 said:


> As usual, the offence is mostly being taken by those who are fed up with 'all this "women's rights" crap'. It's very telling, both about them and about this forum recently.


You mean the offence at being asked if the term is sexist (presumably those offended are using it), not the being offended by the term granny gear being used by others, correct?
Yes, some posters have taken offence, but I think most have dismissed the idea as ridiculous.
I'm of granny age (50+), have referred to my wee/big combo as granny gear many times, but I've never previously thought about the implication of the term, would be interesting to know how it came first into use.
Maybe when double/compact setups became the norm, if someone considered a triple they would be ridiculed by the bike salesman?
Or there was a time when all dropped top tube frames (women's frames?) had a triple by default?
More cycling semantic investigation is needed!
Before reading this thread I would never have considered the term offensive, simply because I had never heard it used in a belittling way.
I am reconsidering my stance on this one!
EDIT: I thin @Andrew_P above said the same as me, but he types faster lol



slowmotion said:


> I went to a place near Wales last weekend. We walked up a hill called Lord Hereford's Knob. It was bigger than mine, and I took offence. A group of friends are campaigning for it to be torn down.


Gonna stop derailing an interesting topic?


----------



## fatjel (12 May 2018)

I didn’t get out of my small ring today.


----------



## swansonj (12 May 2018)

classic33 said:


> Grandpa Ring is on the rear.


Well, I think we sometimes call the functional equivalent to an unusually small chain ring, when it is at the rear, a dinner plate - showing that light hearted nicknames don't have to be tied up with gender assumptions or value judgements.


----------



## Fab Foodie (12 May 2018)

swansonj said:


> We can, if we want to carry on disseminating the message that climbing hills sensibly and enjoyably is only for weak people


Is that what it does though? I could call it the small ring and it might still be construed that I’m/we’re weak climbers for using it. Frankly I don’t give a tinkers what gears people use and am on the record here expousing the benefits of sensible/appropriate low gears.
It’s the baby ring because it’s the smallest, no more, no less!


----------



## Ming the Merciless (12 May 2018)

My first introduction to a triple was mountain bike. The term granny ring was around in the early 90's. Before then, don't know. My road bike till 2002 was a 10 speed Raleigh Malborough. I run a triple on my road bike and will do on my next one. I love my granny and her choice of gear for steep hills.


----------



## steveindenmark (12 May 2018)

Inertia said:


> Not sure what you are saying.


*Its been used as an insult if someone dared to go into the granny gear.
*
What sort of a person would criticize someone for using a granny gear


----------



## Inertia (12 May 2018)

steveindenmark said:


> *Its been used as an insult if someone dared to go into the granny gear.
> *
> What sort of a person would criticize someone for using a granny gear


Ah right, to be fair I don’t think it’s too unusual for people to poke fun at another. I didn’t think they were a horrible person.


----------



## screenman (12 May 2018)

swansonj said:


> Well, I think we sometimes call the functional equivalent to an unusually small chain ring, when it is at the rear, a dinner plate - showing that light hearted nicknames don't have to be tied up with gender assumptions or value judgements.



I think there might be a lot of years between dinner plate and granny ring, I can remember the latter from a long while back.


----------



## Smokin Joe (12 May 2018)

Granny gear was a term I first saw in an edition of Richard's Bicycle Book, late seventies or early eighties I believe.

I'm quite happy to use a granny gear when needed and also to go on calling it that.


----------



## Blue Hills (12 May 2018)

PK99 said:


> I think it says something positive.
> 
> Granny bashing and dumping are perjorative terms toward the person doing the bashing or dumping. The terms are protective toward Granny.
> 
> Granny flats are a way of providing a safe, semi independent living space to an elderly parent - most often granny after grandad has died.


I feel duty bound pk to caution you that with this sort of clear thinking, textual analysis and sensitivity to the intricacies of human interchange you risk being burned.


----------



## classic33 (12 May 2018)

I blame Henry Ford for the introduction of the granny gear.


----------



## mustang1 (12 May 2018)

Diogenes The Sarcastic said:


> They don't - https://www.theguardian.com/politic...olly-curtis/2012/jan/16/costa-concordia-women


I had no idea. Thanks for the info. Kids should def be given priority, but then you cant let kids go without their parents (else who will bring the kids up if the parents perish?)


----------



## slowmotion (12 May 2018)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Gonna stop derailing an interesting topic?







Certainly, and I promise never to use the G word again.


----------



## Blue Hills (12 May 2018)

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ygy7UDADXDg&list=RDYgy7UDADXDg&t=41


----------



## keithmac (12 May 2018)

Inertia said:


> and some people seem to enjoy entering the thread to find fault with the motivations of others, so far we have had:
> 
> its PC gone mad
> "womens rights" crap
> ...



That was my opinion on the matter, nothing more; nothing less..


----------



## screenman (12 May 2018)

slowmotion said:


> View attachment 408911
> Certainly, and I promise never to use the G word again.



I am currently looking at a longcase now. It is a few minutes fast, never mind rather early than late, in most cases.


----------



## Paul139 (12 May 2018)

To me the original post sums up a lot of what is wrong with the world in general. Looking for problems and offence where there really isn't any. Yawn!!


----------



## bpsmith (12 May 2018)

swansonj said:


> Well, I think we sometimes call the functional equivalent to an unusually small chain ring, when it is at the rear, a dinner plate - showing that light hearted nicknames don't have to be tied up with gender assumptions or value judgements.


You do realise that it’s called a dinner plate because those who use them eat too much and so need an easier gear to get up the same hills they needed a harder gear for previously.

I find that highly offensive and may give up cycling as a result.


----------



## Julia9054 (12 May 2018)

Paul139 said:


> To me the original post sums up a lot of what is wrong with the world in general. Looking for problems and offence where there really isn't any. Yawn!!


You genuinely think that being asked to consider the origins of an expression is what is wrong with the world in general?
You can't just go "oh, I've never thought of it like that" and then either continue to use the phrase or not to use the phrase as you see fit? Bit sad really


----------



## bpsmith (12 May 2018)

I think the point is that were over analysing absolutely everything to the nth degree these days and wasting time on stuff that people genuinely don’t find offensive.

Personally, I have never used the term, although I do think it’s a daft thing to get work nd up about.

Being asked to think about such things isn’t the issue. I do enjoy discussing stuff that questions the norm and resolves things that should never have been.

Is this one of those things? I doubt it. That’s my assumption based on the fact that nobody has yet stated that they have taken offence to the term. Perhaos it would be useful for anyone who does to post that here, so we have a better idea on how much of an issue this really is?


----------



## mjr (13 May 2018)

bpsmith said:


> Is this one of those things? I doubt it. That’s my assumption based on the fact that nobody has yet stated that they have taken offence to the term. Perhaos it would be useful for anyone who does to post that here, so we have a better idea on how much of an issue this really is?


Yes, please post here so you can be ridiculed like your concerns have been(!) 

Useful for who?


----------



## bpsmith (13 May 2018)

mjr said:


> Yes, please post here so you can be ridiculed like your concerns have been(!)
> 
> Useful for who?


I am not suggesting anyone is ridiculed. Far from it.

Useful to any reader of the thread as to whether people actually do take offence to this definition.


----------



## freiston (13 May 2018)

Apologies if this has already been brought up (I haven't read pages 2-11) but I tend to use my granny gear most when suffering from man-flu. I'm not keen on the term 'man-flu' but I'm more than happy to call my granny gear my 'old man's gear'. There are plenty of men and women with more than a decade's seniority to me who I consider to have bodies in much better nick than mine but there's no denying that most of us cannot physically do what we did when we were younger.


----------



## slowmotion (13 May 2018)

What people call a sprocket with a few teeth doesn't matter. I'm just interested in the idea that people with trivial grievances should be right royally entertained.
There's plenty more stuff to get concerned about.


----------



## Pat "5mph" (13 May 2018)

slowmotion said:


> What people call a sprocket with a few teeth doesn't matter. I'm just interested in the idea that people with trivial grievances should be right royally entertained.
> There's plenty more stuff to get concerned about.


But it does matter imo.
Words are powerful.
The op was not a grievance, it was an invitation to reflect on a term commonly used in cycling; we are a forum of cyclists, no?
I wasn't before, but now I'm interested in the origins of the term.
Some words are intuitively offensive to me: example, I never liked "mamil", "sit up and beg bike" or "BSO"
Granny gear, after spending a bit thinking about it, could grow distasteful (to me) but I still need to pinpoint the reason.
Sure, there is more pressing stuff to be concerned about in the big picture of life, but one is still allowed to reflect about the wee stuff, don't you think?


----------



## classic33 (13 May 2018)

bpsmith said:


> You do realise that it’s called a dinner plate because those who use them eat too much and so need an easier gear to get up the same hills they needed a harder gear for previously.
> 
> I find that highly offensive and may give up cycling as a result.


Thought it was the "Dinner Plate" due to being oversize. "Grandpa Ring" relates to the largest on the rear block.


----------



## User16625 (13 May 2018)

Inertia said:


> So you are saying associating physical things that are easier to do with women/old people, isn't sexist/ageist?



Correct. Or at least a lot of stuff is taken way too seriously. Fact is men and women do have different attributes and therefore not equal. This doesnt make women inferior. Im sure if I said something like "flowers are girly, football is manly", someone will end up being offended which is pathetic. It is kind of true, a higher proportion of women love flowers, and a high proportion of men (higher than women) like football. To say it tho, thats sexist, yet they cant even play against each other officially. What if each team had a set number of women and men in them? 

Also cooking really is a woman's job, because look what happens when it's left to a man* (OK that is a joke)


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (13 May 2018)

Pat "5mph" said:


> But it does matter imo.
> Words are powerful.
> The op was not a grievance, it was an invitation to reflect on a term commonly used in cycling; we are a forum of cyclists, no?
> I wasn't before, but now I'm interested in the origins of the term.
> Some words are intuitively offensive to me: example, I never liked "mamil", "sit up and beg bike" or "BSO"



I don't see why any of those three terms should bother you, although the last one does often get misused.
"MAMIL" describes the ridiculous sight of (usually visibly overweight) middle age blokes who are generally on an expensive and fancy looking road bike and are trying to kid themselves they are still a fit 25 year old athlete, when in reality they look more like a jelly with legs sticking out the bottom. As a bloke, I probably laugh at them even more than most women do, and the ridicule is fully deserved, IMHO.
"The term "sit up and beg" has been in use forever, and describes the upright riding position of a traditional roadster. I use the term, my mum used to use it, everyone knows exactly what it refers to. Why would anyone have a problem with such a description? It isn't even gender-specific!
"BSO", when used correctly, accurately describes the sort of cheap junk bike which is so badly made as to be unuseable, or doesn't remain functional for long. Cycling snobs unfortunately misuse the term, and use BSO to refer to any cheaper bike than the one they ride, which brings it into disrepute. I own certain bikes that some on here would regard as BSO's, even though all my bikes are fully capable of being used reliably if maintained, but their "crime" is they cost less than a weeks' wages new, rather than a month or more of wages. I don't care if a snob thinks my skip-salvage Apollo MTB is a BSO, I know it isn't because whenever I ride it, it always gets me to my destination in working order.

I'm also interested in the origins of various phrases in common use, but unlike those militant feminist types who go looking for "sexism" and any other sort of "ism" in everything they see, hear, or read, I don't want to start a campaign to try to stop anyone else using whatever term they choose. If a few Snowflake types get offended by any phrases I use, that's their problem to deal with. not mine. I won't be changing any of my use of the English language just because some "professional offendees" think I'm sexist/racist/size-ist/ageist etc. They need to get a life and find something that's actually important enough to worry about, like some third-world religious nut-job country managing to get hold of a viable nuclear missile.


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## swansonj (13 May 2018)

bpsmith said:


> I think the point is that were over analysing absolutely everything to the nth degree these days and wasting time on stuff that people genuinely don’t find offensive.
> 
> Personally, I have never used the term, although I do think it’s a daft thing to get work nd up about.
> 
> ...


Just for the record, whilst I am unashamed at having started this thread, I did so, not out of blue because I am on a mission to convert everyone, but to stop another interesting thread getting derailed. And the subject came up there because someone in one and the same post claimed they didn't have a sexist bone in their body, then talked about granny gears. 

Also and far more importantly, you and many others have mischaracterised the objections to the term as being about people being offended. As I tried (I deludedly thought fairly clearly and patiently) to explain in the OP and subsequently, it's not, or not principally. It's about perpetuating a set of assumptions about how cycling ought to be experienced. 

The fish to be played for here is whether someone newish to cycling goes into a bike shop and comes out with a bike that:

(a) has sport-derived gears (and geometry and saddle...) so that every hill becomes a struggle, cycling becomes perceived as not really fun but the preserve of fit people preferably with a dose of masochism, the bike gets used less, and another putative convert is lost to our wonderful activity; or

(b) has nice low gears, such that hills can be taken at a pootle without getting completely sweaty, carrying shopping loads seems perfectly feasible, longer distances don't loom as a challenge, and the whole cycling experience seems, you know, _fun_ rather than a sport. 

Does how we talk about something affect how we perceive it? Of course it flipping does. It's called marketing.


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## Vantage (13 May 2018)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> "MAMIL" describes the ridiculous sight of (usually visibly overweight) middle age blokes who are generally on an expensive and fancy looking road bike and are trying to kid themselves they are still a fit 25 year old athlete, when in reality they look more like a jelly with legs sticking out the bottom. As a bloke, I probably laugh at them even more than most women do, and the ridicule is fully deserved, IMHO.



Why is the ridicule deserved?
No one wears lycra for its awesome fashion status. It's for comfort and/or performance.
It doesn't flap around in the wind, doesn't quadruple in weight when wet and dries quickly. For cycling, it's perfect.
From what I've seen, the majority of these mamils are damn strong cyclists.


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## screenman (13 May 2018)

Vantage said:


> Why is the ridicule deserved?
> No one wears lycra for its awesome fashion status. It's for comfort and/or performance.
> It doesn't flap around in the wind, doesn't quadruple in weight when wet and dries quickly. For cycling, it's perfect.
> From what I've seen, the majority of these mamils are damn strong cyclists.



Yeh! But they spend money and that is frowned upon by some of seems.

Full Lycra on every ride for me.


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## Julia9054 (13 May 2018)

screenman said:


> Yeh! But they spend money and that is frowned upon by some of seems.
> 
> Full Lycra on every ride for me.


No, you are doing it wrong. If you are not 25 and - heaven forbid - if you are a bit overweight, you should know your place, wear a baggy t shirt and ride an old, cheap bike. Hide yourself away for gawd sake or Skipdiver John will laugh at you.


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## smutchin (13 May 2018)

I find this thread quite reassuring. As long as there are so many people willing to fight the noble cause of the granny ring, our children will be able to sleep soundly at night without fearing the militant feminists under the bed.


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## Julia9054 (13 May 2018)

smutchin said:


> I find this thread quite reassuring. As long as there are so many people willing to fight the noble cause of the granny ring, our children will be able to sleep soundly at night without fearing the militant feminists under the bed.


I love that a few people going "Never thought of that - i suppose it could be a bit sexist" on an internet forum can terrorise people's children so effectively


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## winjim (13 May 2018)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> I don't see why any of those three terms should bother you, although the last one does often get misused.
> "MAMIL" describes the ridiculous sight of (usually visibly overweight) middle age blokes who are generally on an expensive and fancy looking road bike and are trying to kid themselves they are still a fit 25 year old athlete, when in reality they look more like a jelly with legs sticking out the bottom. As a bloke, I probably laugh at them even more than most women do, and the ridicule is fully deserved, IMHO.
> "The term "sit up and beg" has been in use forever, and describes the upright riding position of a traditional roadster. I use the term, my mum used to use it, everyone knows exactly what it refers to. Why would anyone have a problem with such a description? It isn't even gender-specific!
> "BSO", when used correctly, accurately describes the sort of cheap junk bike which is so badly made as to be unuseable, or doesn't remain functional for long. Cycling snobs unfortunately misuse the term, and use BSO to refer to any cheaper bike than the one they ride, which brings it into disrepute. I own certain bikes that some on here would regard as BSO's, even though all my bikes are fully capable of being used reliably if maintained, but their "crime" is they cost less than a weeks' wages new, rather than a month or more of wages. I don't care if a snob thinks my skip-salvage Apollo MTB is a BSO, I know it isn't because whenever I ride it, it always gets me to my destination in working order.
> ...


This entire post is pretty good, but that second paragraph is incredible. Truly a thing of beauty, I might print it out and stick it on my fridge.


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## gbb (13 May 2018)

mjr said:


> Yes, please post here so you can be ridiculed like your concerns have been(!)
> 
> Useful for who?


It' be extremely useful if someone actually said they found it offensive...i dont mean theoretically offensive but that it definitively had a sexist basis. Perhaps then the whole discussion could be taken seriously.
I' m a less than perfect human being and carry with me some unfortunate habits for want of a better word . I'm a good human being but have modified some of my less fortunate traits, many of them as a result of reading posts like these. But this isn't one that's going to change anything In me, it's a non starter, has no basis...thats been shown to me anyway.
Discuss ?...perfectly fine, but the trouble is some in here will knee nerk accuse you of being a covert, even overt racist/sexist/ageist, if you don't agree.(discussions of this nature in general)
They do themselves an immense disservice when that happens.


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## Julia9054 (13 May 2018)

gbb said:


> It' be extremely useful if someone actually said they found it offensive...i dont mean theoretically offensive but that it definitively had a sexist basis. Perhaps then the whole discussion could be taken seriously.


Does someone have to find something personally offensive (or offensive on behalf of another group) to acknowledge that an expression is sexist and ageist in origin (for what else could it be?)
I am not reading massive amounts of outrage - well, not against the use of the phrase anyway - nor am I reading calls for the phrase to be banned.


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## Julia9054 (13 May 2018)

gbb said:


> Discuss ?...perfectly fine, but the trouble is some in here will knee nerk accuse you of being a covert, even overt racist/sexist/ageist, if you don't agree.(discussions of this nature in general)


I am not reading any of that either. Just a small amount of ridicule against those who are suggesting that anyone discussing it must be a ridiculous militant feminist!


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## swansonj (13 May 2018)

swansonj said:


> ....
> Also and far more importantly, you and many others have mischaracterised the objections to the term as being about people being offended. As I tried (I deludedly thought fairly clearly and patiently) to explain in the OP and subsequently, it's not, or not principally. It's about perpetuating a set of assumptions about how cycling ought to be experienced.
> .....





gbb said:


> It' be extremely useful if someone actually said they found it offensive ....


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## Blue Hills (13 May 2018)

swansonj said:


> Just for the record, whilst I am unashamed at having started this thread, I did so, not out of blue because I am on a mission to convert everyone, but to stop another interesting thread getting derailed. And the subject came up there because someone in one and the same post claimed they didn't have a sexist bone in their body, then talked about granny gears.



er me I presume.

So you have just said that it is definitely sexist. Insulting derogatory etc etc.

I had you down as a reasonable chap with some sort of particular thing about this but praps not.

May say more on this craziness if I have time over the next few days.

But not now - have to meet up with a nice cyclechat bod.

And luckily, maybe because I am lefty liberal with a few years on me and experiences.
Or a northerner.
Am innoculated against this sort of nonsense.


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## PpPete (13 May 2018)

_Declaration of Interest: I'm a proud user of a triple - which has a very small "g***' ring". _

I think we all have to accept that language changes. Spam means something different to what it did when i was a yoof, but I use it in its new meaning almost exclusively now. I no longer use the term g.......g referring to the image that used to appear on Robertson's jam, even though it was in common use, and not considered offensive, when I was a child. Standards change too. When I was in my teens Irish jokes were perfectly acceptable.

So if the term 'granny gear' is perceived by some as offensive, or detrimental to the enjoyment of cycling by those of limited leg-power, then I'll moderate my use of it. Can I guarantee to stop using it altogether overnight? No. 

If people get offended because they see changes like that as political correctness gone mad, I rather pity them.
If a female grandparent hears the term slip inadvertently from my lips (probably when I'm labouring up a steep hill in said gear) and is offended; well I'm sorry but you need to get over yourself; language (and attitude) changes don't happen overnight.


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## bpsmith (13 May 2018)

swansonj said:


> Just for the record, whilst I am unashamed at having started this thread, I did so, not out of blue because I am on a mission to convert everyone, but to stop another interesting thread getting derailed. And the subject came up there because someone in one and the same post claimed they didn't have a sexist bone in their body, then talked about granny gears.
> 
> Also and far more importantly, you and many others have mischaracterised the objections to the term as being about people being offended. As I tried (I deludedly thought fairly clearly and patiently) to explain in the OP and subsequently, it's not, or not principally. It's about perpetuating a set of assumptions about how cycling ought to be experienced.
> 
> ...


I have no issue about the theead being created. There’s nothing like a good discussion. I then asked for people to post if they find it offensive, to quantify how big an issue this is. I am still waiting on a single reply.

With respect to saddle fit, you have no idea it seems, based on what you think a new rider should have. It’s all about the size of your body. It could be that a race style saddle works, or one that’s more padded and endurance styled, but if it’s the wrong size then it just won’t work for you. My first saddle was leaning towards a racey style but was way too padded for my body and I bought a narrower one with less padding and it’s a lot more comfortable on long or short rides.

With respect to someone, male or female of any age, coming out of a bike shop with a bike that doesn’t suit their needs, the fault lies with the sales person and the buyer themselves. They should both ask the right questions and listen to the answers properly.

I know a number of people who bought their first bike that would fall in your Option A. They love the bike and cycling too, and are still doing so. I also know some in Option B with the same feeling too. As it happens, I know 2 that bought Option B and wish they had gone with Option A now, but none the other way around. Not suggesting it’s always that way, but only in my experience with the small sample of people I know.

You have to accept that either option is to be explored, despite you only posting the negatives for Option A and only the positives for Option B.

You also need to listen to other opinions, when you create a thread that includes the word “Discuss”, as do others, otherwise why bother?


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## smutchin (13 May 2018)

gbb said:


> It' be extremely useful if someone actually said they found it offensive...i dont mean theoretically offensive but that it definitively had a sexist basis. Perhaps then the whole discussion could be taken seriously.



Here's a simple test: is gender relevant to bicycle gearing? If not, using a gendered term to describe it is _by definition_ sexist. Is the term offensive? No, not really, but then no one has claimed it is.

When the matter came up in my thoughts the other day (prompted by something I'd read but not here) I decided I would rather not use a gendered term where gender is irrelevant. Call me politically correct if you like, call me a militant feminist, label me with whatever lame Daily Mail cliché comes to mind, I can live with that.


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## smutchin (13 May 2018)

bpsmith said:


> There’s nothing like a good discussion.



And this really is nothing like etc...


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## Fab Foodie (13 May 2018)

I’m going to call it the ‘happy-gear’ from now on... ‘cos I’m happy I have it!


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## Fab Foodie (13 May 2018)

smutchin said:


> And this really is nothing like etc...


You here all week perchance?


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## smutchin (13 May 2018)

Fab Foodie said:


> You here all week perchance?



Have I ever told you about my mother-in-law?


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## Julia9054 (13 May 2018)

I've always called it my Pateley Bridge chainring because if i lived there, I'd have to use it all the time


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## bpsmith (13 May 2018)

smutchin said:


> Here's a simple test: is gender relevant to bicycle gearing? If not, using a gendered term to describe it is _by definition_ sexist. Is the term offensive? No, not really, but then no one has claimed it is.


So, is gender relevant to gearing? Do both genders, on average, push the same gears in the same scenarios?

The real question is whether the same can be asked of younger or older cyclists on average.

The points being made in this thread are about sexism, but nobody is discussing it being ageist when the reality is that it falls more in the latter than the former if we were to really define its place.

Personally, none of this affects me, as have never used the term despite being aware of it and it’s meaning. I just use the gear that I need for the occasion and that changes on the day too. I really don’t care what others use, as long as it gets them where they want to be in the manner in which they want to.


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## gbb (13 May 2018)

smutchin said:


> Here's a simple test: is gender relevant to bicycle gearing? If not, using a gendered term to describe it is _by definition_ sexist. Is the term offensive? No, not really, but then no one has claimed it is.
> 
> When the matter came up in my thoughts the other day (prompted by something I'd read but not here) I decided I would rather not use a gendered term where gender is irrelevant. Call me politically correct if you like, call me a militant feminist, label me with whatever lame Daily Mail cliché comes to mind, I can live with that.


I concede I wrongly attributed the term offended. Ok, taking it as you say and trying to degenderise terminology...i take your point and respect that...but personally don't feel it's necessary for me to.
It's generally accepted terminology without (IMO and apparently many other too) negative meaning....thats good enough for me...even though it' a term I don't use anyway.

And one of my traits is a mild dislike of authority, being told what I can and can't do (I'm not suggesting anyone is...i just like to make up my own mind). There you go, laid myself bare again


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## smutchin (13 May 2018)

gbb said:


> personally don't feel it's necessary for me to ... And one of my traits is a mild dislike of authority, being told what I can and can't do.



Just as well no one is asking you to change anything then.


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## smutchin (13 May 2018)

bpsmith said:


> both genders



_Both_ genders? DKUATB!

But to answer your question, I'm struggling to imagine a scenario where gender is relevant to choice of gearing.


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## bpsmith (13 May 2018)

smutchin said:


> _Both_ genders? DKUATB!
> 
> But to answer your question, I'm struggling to imagine a scenario where gender is relevant to choice of gearing.


So you’re suggesting that, on average, people of any gender and any age should all use the same gear?


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## Ian H (13 May 2018)

bpsmith said:


> So you’re suggesting that, on average, people of any gender and any age should all use the same gear?


I'm sure one can suggest suitable gearing for someone based on their fitness, strength, and weight, without knowing either their age or gender, or even the colour of their hair.


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## deptfordmarmoset (13 May 2018)

On a wider point, can anybody think of any other gendered (or age-related) part of a bicycle? I'm struggling to think of any.

English, compared to many languages, is remarkably ungendered. There are the odd exceptions, of course; some people will refer to things like ships and cars as ''she,'' and it's standard to refer to some connecting parts as male or female by simple analogy. The language simply has no need to attribute gender to ungendered things. So I'm struggling to understand why some people seem to be reacting along the lines of ''First they came for my golliwog, then they came for my mother-in-law, now they're after my granny!'' when it wouldn't be any great loss to pick use another ungendered term.


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## Julia9054 (13 May 2018)

Ian H said:


> I'm sure one can suggest suitable gearing for someone based on their fitness, strength, and weight, without knowing either their age or gender, or even the colour of their hair.


Or perhaps we could name all the gears after those who might use them
Granny gear
Fit young bloke gear
Bloke who knows he should lose a stone gear
Young woman who's been a bit too busy for cycling recently gear
Bloke with bad knees gear
Etc


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## smutchin (13 May 2018)

bpsmith said:


> So you’re suggesting that, on average, people of any gender and any age should all use the same gear?



No. Are you suggesting that whether or not a cyclist has grandchildren is relevant to their choice of gearing?


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## bpsmith (13 May 2018)

Julia9054 said:


> Or perhaps we could name all the gears after those who might use them
> Granny gear
> Fit young bloke gear
> Bloke who knows he should lose a stone gear
> ...





smutchin said:


> No. Are you suggesting that whether or not a cyclist has grandchildren is relevant to their choice of gearing?



My point was that gender/age is a factor in gearing, much like frame size, for example.

I am not trying to argue that there’s a gender/age based name required. That’s never been my point. Perhaps I misled into that train of thinking.


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## smutchin (13 May 2018)

bpsmith said:


> My point was that gender/age is a factor in gearing, much like frame size, for example.



And colour. Don't forget colour. It's equally important that men and women ride bikes of the correct colour.


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## Inertia (13 May 2018)

bpsmith said:


> My point was that gender/age is a factor in gearing, much like frame size, for example.
> 
> I am not trying to argue that there’s a gender/age based name required. That’s never been my point. Perhaps I misled into that train of thinking.


Honest question, Is it really a factor in gearing? I’m sure there are woman that use the full range of gears so that would make gender irrelevant. Surely you would base the decision on their fitness and size. And the usage too I guess


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## vickster (13 May 2018)

bpsmith said:


> My point was that gender/age is a factor in gearing, much like frame size, for example.
> .


How so? Frame size is broadly based on an individual's physical stature. Gearing is surely down to the individual, their requirements/preference/location/physical fitness, whatever their age or gender.


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## SkipdiverJohn (13 May 2018)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> On a wider point, can anybody think of any other gendered (or age-related) part of a bicycle? I'm struggling to think of any..



You're missing the most obvious one - the frame. Men don't tend to wear skirts, so they usually ride frames with crossbars. Women often DO wear skirts, and having a frame with a dropped cross bar enables a lady so dressed to ride a bike without providing a show for all the men that may be watching. Whilst there is nothing physically stopping either a man or woman from riding either type of frame assuming it fits them, there is a very good reason why each frame design is described as either Ladies or Gents. I see the PC brigade lately like to use the term "unisex" to describe Ladies frames, but strangely they don't do this with "Gents" ones.... So is it OK for both a man and a woman to ride a Ladies frame, but not OK for a woman to ride a Gents? You do have to wonder at some of the thought processes that go on in some people's heads.


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## Sandra6 (13 May 2018)

Oh for the love of Mike. It's just an expression. It's only offensive if you choose to be offended. You cannot give offense, only take it afterall. 
I use the term. I also say I rode in "my big boy gears" when I've been fairly flying -usually with a tailwind. 
I say I have to put my big boy pants on. And I refer to my behaviour at times as "being a girl about it" 
At work I play the "girl card" when I don't want to do something that I'm perfectly capable of but can just as easily get a bloke to do for me. 
I tell the kids to "grow up" without for one minute implying that grown ups are in some way better than children. 
And I have a t-shirt with the slogan "yes I ride like a girl - try to keep up" 
Get over it.


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## classic33 (13 May 2018)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> *On a wider point, can anybody think of any other gendered (or age-related) part of a bicycle? I'm struggling to think of any.
> *
> English, compared to many languages, is remarkably ungendered. There are the odd exceptions, of course; some people will refer to things like ships and cars as ''she,'' and it's standard to refer to some connecting parts as male or female by simple analogy. The language simply has no need to attribute gender to ungendered things. So I'm struggling to understand why some people seem to be reacting along the lines of ''First they came for my golliwog, then they came for my mother-in-law, now they're after my granny!'' when it wouldn't be any great loss to pick use another ungendered term.


What about male and & female threads?

Like the granny gear, they came from elsewhere.


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## deptfordmarmoset (13 May 2018)

classic33 said:


> What about male and & female threads?
> 
> Like the granny gear, they came from elsewhere.


I actually don't know about male and female threads. Is it like the mechanical versions, which call the piece to be inserted male and the piece that receives it female?


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## Ianboydsnr (13 May 2018)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> I actually don't know about male and female threads. Is it like the mechanical versions, which call the piece to be inserted male and the piece that receives it female?


That is correct, the nut being female the bolt being male


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## deptfordmarmoset (13 May 2018)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> You're missing the most obvious one - the frame. Men don't tend to wear skirts, so they usually ride frames with crossbars. Women often DO wear skirts, and having a frame with a dropped cross bar enables a lady so dressed to ride a bike without providing a show for all the men that may be watching. Whilst there is nothing physically stopping either a man or woman from riding either type of frame assuming it fits them, there is a very good reason why each frame design is described as either Ladies or Gents. I see the PC brigade lately like to use the term "unisex" to describe Ladies frames, but strangely they don't do this with "Gents" ones.... So is it OK for both a man and a woman to ride a Ladies frame, but not OK for a woman to ride a Gents? You do have to wonder at some of the thought processes that go on in some people's heads.


You're right, of course. I should have argued for examples of _arbitrarily_ gendered bike bits. A ''woman's'' frame will tend to be made with a shorter distance between saddle to stem because most women, when compared to men, have proportionally longer legs and shorter torsos. They're tailored to match differences of anatomy (or should be). 

Certainly, ladies' frames are made to enable an easier - some would say, more modest - step through for getting on and off. Something useful, incidentally, for a pannier-laden touring or shopping bike. Possibly also convenient for people wearing kilts.


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## classic33 (13 May 2018)

There's saddles.


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## deptfordmarmoset (13 May 2018)

classic33 said:


> There's saddles.


Anatomical reasons, the same kind of case as argued in post 299.


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## User10119 (13 May 2018)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> A ''woman's'' frame will tend to be made with a shorter distance between saddle to stem because most women, when compared to men, have proportionally longer legs and shorter torsos.



Funnily enough...

When I was shopping for my hybrid I decided I liked the look of the Trek Valencia. This was available in a WSD version, but when I compared the geometry the two versions of the bike were actually functionally identical - the differences were the lowered top tube and the saddle. Since I almost never wear skirts that was a non-issue. My inner engineer likes triangles, and the aesthetics of the "men's" version appealed more so I bought that one. The saddle was fine up until I essayed my first 50 miler; this was a rather splendid pootle round (mostly) flat Essex on which I encountered a number of CCers and YACFers for the first time, organised by Aunty Helen, which was thouroughly enjoyable but did highlight the limitations of the OEM saddle (and I suspect the stock "women's" saddle would have also failed that test!) causing me to go at the first available opportunity to my LBS and buy something better, thus increasing the value of the bike by a significant percentage.


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## Fab Foodie (13 May 2018)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> On a wider point, can anybody think of any other gendered (or age-related) part of a bicycle? I'm struggling to think of any.
> 
> English, compared to many languages, is remarkably ungendered. There are the odd exceptions, of course; some people will refer to things like ships and cars as ''she,'' and it's standard to refer to some connecting parts as male or female by simple analogy. The language simply has no need to attribute gender to ungendered things. So I'm struggling to understand why some people seem to be reacting along the lines of ''First they came for my golliwog, then they came for my mother-in-law, now they're after my granny!'' when it wouldn't be any great loss to pick use another ungendered term.


I’m certain I use my ’deptford’ gear to get me over those tough humpback bridges though....


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## vickster (13 May 2018)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> You're missing the most obvious one - the frame. Men don't tend to wear skirts, so they usually ride frames with crossbars. Women often DO wear skirts, and having a frame with a dropped cross bar enables a lady so dressed to ride a bike without providing a show for all the men that may be watching. Whilst there is nothing physically stopping either a man or woman from riding either type of frame assuming it fits them, there is a very good reason why each frame design is described as either Ladies or Gents. I see the PC brigade lately like to use the term "unisex" to describe Ladies frames, but strangely they don't do this with "Gents" ones.... So is it OK for both a man and a woman to ride a Ladies frame, but not OK for a woman to ride a Gents? You do have to wonder at some of the thought processes that go on in some people's heads.


Are you stuck in a Victorian era time warp? 

I’ve never worn a skirt cycling, probably not even as a child

I think you’ll actually find it’s ‘mens’ frames that are referred to as unisex, while those designed more with women in mind are referred to as women specific design or similar. All my bike frames were sold as men’s or possibly unisex


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## Julia9054 (13 May 2018)

Sandra6 said:


> I also say I rode in "my big boy gears" when I've been fairly flying -usually with a tailwind.
> I say I have to put my big boy pants on. And I refer to my behaviour at times as "being a girl about it"
> At work I play the "girl card" when I don't want to do something that I'm perfectly capable of but can just as easily get a bloke to do for me.
> I tell the kids to "grow up" without for one minute implying that grown ups are in some way better than children.
> ...


Each to her own I suppose.
As a teacher, I would challenge most of those expressions if I heard my pupils using them.


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## gbb (13 May 2018)

Just for a one off...and perhaps pointless...but to get another perspective on the subject, i just asked my non cycling 25 YO DIL what she thought of the term granny gear and it's female origin. Her response...
'Jesus, is that all you have to talk about in there ?'


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## User10119 (13 May 2018)

Julia9054 said:


> Each to her own I suppose.
> As a teacher, I would challenge most of those expressions if I heard my pupils using them.


You would have LOVED the converation I had, as a DBS-checked parent volunteer, with a small group of 9/10/11 year olds as I accompanied 'my' little group around a treasure hunt/map reading/historical site finding adventure across town a couple of weeks ago. One commented that they didn't think it was a good idea to talk about 'girly girls' and 'tomboys' because they're both just girls, and OK. Another was quite cross about the way that some people expect boys to 'man up' and not cry and not be caring. We talked about, among other things, being sporty, and strong, and creative, and caring, and whether or not we liked wearing certain clothes*. The conclusion reached, as we bimbled along the river path, was that it was all very silly because all of those were equally valid ways of being a girl. And equally valid ways of being a boy.

Maybe there's hope, eh.



*with a digression about the dress code options for weddings, including for the bridal party, in which it was concluded that it didn't matter if you lived in jeans/t-shirts/lycra/whatever, it should be up to you whether or not you went for a bow tie/meringue kind of vibe on the day and that it was important for your guests to feel comfortable. Although they did think my little sister had been absolutely fair in saying that while I was welcome to attend her wedding in jeans, she might have to draw the line at PJs. Their surprise (and it was quite surprising to most people) that in the end I went for an actual frock, with a BOW on it, lasted all of about 30 seconds before we got sidetracked into a conversation about the poor treatment of people with mental health issues through the ages.


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## Julia9054 (13 May 2018)

[QUOTE 5242650, member: 10119"]Maybe there's hope, eh.[/QUOTE]
Kids generally I find are very good at challenging stereotypes.
Although sometimes not. As I sat waiting for parents to come and see me at year 10 parents evening, I overheard this little exchange. Earnest looking mother with list, trailing teenage son "I see it is Dr Smith next, is that a man or a woman?"
Son rolls eyes "A man, obviously. All doctors are men."
We may have a long way to go.


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## swansonj (13 May 2018)

vickster said:


> Are you stuck in a Victorian era time warp?
> 
> I’ve never worn a skirt cycling, probably not even as a child
> 
> I think you’ll actually find it’s ‘mens’ frames that are referred to as unisex, while those designed more with women in mind are referred to as women specific design or similar. All my bike frames were sold as men’s or possibly unisex


My favourite manufacturer refers to "step through" frames, which is functional, descriptive, and non-gendered. I am not aware that the world has come to an end


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## bpsmith (13 May 2018)

swansonj said:


> My favourite manufacturer refers to "step through" frames, which is functional, descriptive, and non-gendered. I am not aware that the world has come to an end


Nobody has any issue with that whatsoever.

The world didn’t have trouble surviving when they referred to as being a ladies bike either. That’s the point made by many in this thread.

To summarise what I see as the general feel of this thread. We’re all happy with gender non-specific descriptions. We’re also happy knowing that this was a no brainer from the start.

It’s pointless comments like “I am not aware that the world has come to an end”, like it was a major issue before, that gets people complaining.


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## Mr Celine (13 May 2018)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> On a wider point, can anybody think of any other gendered (or age-related) part of a bicycle? I'm struggling to think of any.



Does a tandem have a front-bottom bracket?


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## Pat "5mph" (13 May 2018)

RideLikeTheStig said:


> Fact is men and women do have different attributes and therefore not equal. This doesnt make women inferior.


I broadly agree with this statement, but in this case we are asked to consider a word's usage.
So, after reflection, I came to the conclusion that "granny gear" to describe a very low cycling gear is, nowadays, at minimum, incorrect.
My experience is that a lot of 60+ presumed grannies can make it up steep hills without engaging their lowest gear.



SkipdiverJohn said:


> "MAMIL" describes the ridiculous sight of (usually visibly overweight) middle age blokes who are generally on an expensive and fancy looking road bike and are trying to kid themselves they are still a fit 25 year old athlete, when in reality they look more like a jelly with legs sticking out the bottom. As a bloke, I probably laugh at them even more than most women do, and the ridicule is fully deserved, IMHO.


It is a cruel term, ime used by men, never heard a woman using it.
I used it once as a joke, did not like myself for doing it so won't use it again.



SkipdiverJohn said:


> "The term "sit up and beg" has been in use forever, and describes the upright riding position of a traditional roadster. I use the term, my mum used to use it, everyone knows exactly what it refers to. Why would anyone have a problem with such a description? It isn't even gender-specific!


Because, imagine a former racing cyclist that now has back problems then read the quote below:


swansonj said:


> It's about perpetuating a set of assumptions about how cycling ought to be experienced.





SkipdiverJohn said:


> Women often DO wear skirts, and having a frame with a dropped cross bar enables a lady so dressed to ride a bike without providing a show for all the men that may be watching.


Ahem, we are not in a Jane Austin novel: nowadays most women ride in leggings, jeans, shorts, short dresses with leggings underneath, short skirts with cycling shorts underneath ... you get the picture.



Sandra6 said:


> At work I play the "girl card" when I don't want to do something that I'm perfectly capable of but can just as easily get a bloke to do for me.


This, @Sandra6 is a very interesting topic that merits a thread on his own.
If you don't mind, I'd like to expand it further, but not now as I'm getting ready for work. Hope all is good with you and family


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## classic33 (13 May 2018)

Nuts now be on the list of words that people can take offence at?


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## Tin Pot (13 May 2018)

classic33 said:


> Nuts now be on the list of words that people can take offence at?



People take offence whenever they see my nuts, so that makes sense to me.


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## Tin Pot (13 May 2018)

Julia9054 said:


> Kids generally I find are very good at challenging stereotypes.
> Although sometimes not. As I sat waiting for parents to come and see me at year 10 parents evening, I overheard this little exchange. Earnest looking mother with list, trailing teenage son "I see it is Dr Smith next, is that a man or a woman?"
> Son rolls eyes "A man, obviously. All doctors are men."
> We may have a long way to go.



I actually believe it’s the opposite. Kids go through several stages of othering as part of their maturation and ultimately becoming an adult. Segregation and prejudice are natural conclusions of a world formed from assumptions and peer pressure, it takes years of education and reason to undo.

Unless you were raised by hippies, in which case you challenge your prejudices from an early age and are comfortable with difference. It’s the psychological scarring that takes years of counselling and therapy to undo.


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## slowmotion (13 May 2018)

Pat "5mph" said:


> But it does matter imo.
> Words are powerful.
> The op was not a grievance,


[QUOTE 5242767, member: 45"]If only a subject could be discussed reasonably, without people exaggerating what's actually being said.[/QUOTE]
Where's the fun in that? This is the internet, for Heaven's sake.


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## nickyboy (13 May 2018)

There's a spectrum of acceptability regarding words that may be considered by some to be sexist or demeaning.

Some are rightly recognised as unacceptable. To my mind, "granny ring" does not fall in this category and I suspect the large majority would agree that it is innocuous

Those seeking use this thread to promote their own agenda of shifting society's spectrum of acceptability need to consider how ridiculous to most this appears. There are much, much less innocuous words in common use. Try those first


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## Paul139 (13 May 2018)

Julia9054 said:


> You genuinely think that being asked to consider the origins of an expression is what is wrong with the world in general?
> You can't just go "oh, I've never thought of it like that" and then either continue to use the phrase or not to use the phrase as you see fit? Bit sad really


As I said. Yawn.


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## Tin Pot (13 May 2018)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> On a wider point, can anybody think of any other gendered (or age-related) part of a bicycle? I'm struggling to think of any.



Shaft.
Ball (bearing).
Sprocket.
Office bike.
Bolt.
Cockpit.
Rubber.
Chopper.
Equipment.
Helmet.
Gear.
Tool.
Old Man’s Tadger*.

With a rumoured 2,600 slang terms for genitals I’m pretty sure the whole bike is made up of private parts if you look hard enough.


*Not a bike part as far as I’m aware, just a term that’s always made me giggle. Best said with a West Country accent for some reason.


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## freiston (13 May 2018)

bpsmith said:


> Nobody has any issue with that whatsoever.
> 
> _*The world didn’t have trouble surviving when they referred to as being a ladies bike either.*_ That’s the point made by many in this thread.
> 
> ...


The world might have survived but plenty of boys were bullied for riding a "ladies bike" (I certainly witnessed it as a kid) and I dare say that for some, it felt like their world was coming to an end.


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## deptfordmarmoset (13 May 2018)

nickyboy said:


> There's a spectrum of acceptability regarding words that may be considered by some to be sexist or demeaning.
> 
> Some are rightly recognised as unacceptable. To my mind, "granny ring" does not fall in this category and I suspect the large majority would agree that it is innocuous
> 
> Those seeking use this thread to promote their own agenda of shifting society's spectrum of acceptability need to consider *how ridiculous to most this appears.* There are much, much less innocuous words in common use. Try those first


And there are others who will wonder at the depth of emotional investment involved for those intending to keep the term.


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## smutchin (13 May 2018)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> And there are others who will wonder at the depth of emotional investment involved for those intending to keep the term.



Especially when no one has told them to stop using it.


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## deptfordmarmoset (13 May 2018)

smutchin said:


> Especially when no one has told them to stop using it.


I know, but a heartwarming attachment to their grannies.


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## Sandra6 (13 May 2018)

Pat "5mph" said:


> I broadly agree with this statement, but in this case we are asked to consider a word's usage.
> So, after reflection, I came
> 
> This, @Sandra6 is a very interesting topic that merits a thread on his own.
> If you don't mind, I'd like to expand it further, but not now as I'm getting ready for work. Hope all is good with you and family


I think that would make for a lively debate ! 
We're all good, hope you're well too.


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## bpsmith (13 May 2018)

freiston said:


> The world might have survived but plenty of boys were bullied for riding a "ladies bike" (I certainly witnessed it as a kid) and I dare say that for some, it felt like their world was coming to an end.


Those weren’t my words btw, just quoted those from above.

With respect to the bullying, that’s awful without question. Are we suggesting that calling it a step through would have avoided said bullying, or would it have still happened but using something else as an excuse? In my experience, there are some ridiculous reasons used to bully people.

If getting rid of terms like Granny Gear or Ladies Bike would eradicate all bullying, then there would be nobody in this thread who would be against that. Sadly, I honestly don’t believe that it would.


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## bpsmith (13 May 2018)

Sandra6 said:


> I think that would make for a lively debate !
> We're all good, hope you're well too.


I would certainly follow that with interest too.


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## classic33 (13 May 2018)

I say blame Henry Ford for giving us the granny gear.


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## mjr (13 May 2018)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> You're missing the most obvious one - the frame. Men don't tend to wear skirts, so they usually ride frames with crossbars. Women often DO wear skirts, and having a frame with a dropped cross bar enables a lady so dressed to ride a bike without providing a show for all the men that may be watching. Whilst there is nothing physically stopping either a man or woman from riding either type of frame assuming it fits them, there is a very good reason why each frame design is described as either Ladies or Gents. I see the PC brigade lately like to use the term "unisex" to describe Ladies frames, but strangely they don't do this with "Gents" ones.... So is it OK for both a man and a woman to ride a Ladies frame, but not OK for a woman to ride a Gents? You do have to wonder at some of the thought processes that go on in some people's heads.


The alternative to "step through" or "U" frames is not Gents but "step over" or "diamond". Examples include https://www.vbt.com/discover-vbt/biking-tours/comfort-road/ and http://www.commuterbikestore.com/city-bikes.html

And it's not about being PC - it's about not being the sort of knuckle-dragging throwback who genders cycle types completely unnecessarily. Who exactly does that help anyway? You really do have to wonder what thought processes are going on in some people's heads! I guess it's something to do with validating their own fragile gender identity through their choice of cycle shape.


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## mjr (13 May 2018)

[QUOTE 5242905, member: 45"]If only we were able to discuss the subtleties of the influence of language that you allude to here, without people exaggerating what's actually being said.[/QUOTE]
So do you think the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis is true or false?


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## bpsmith (13 May 2018)

[QUOTE 5242905, member: 45"]If only we were able to discuss the subtleties of the influence of language that you allude to here, without people exaggerating what's actually being said.[/QUOTE]
Did I exaggerate anything?


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## mjr (13 May 2018)

bpsmith said:


> Did I exaggerate anything?


Yes, including turning a wish for something that would probably reduce bullying into a false dichotomy of either being useless or eradicating all bullying. HTH HAND


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## User10119 (13 May 2018)

User13710 said:


> Candid discussions around our unthinking use of everyday language have resulted in lots of gradual changes, too many to list all of them.


Please note that the following contains terms that I (now) know know to be offensive, but which I am including for the sake of clarity.

When I was a kid growing up in a quiet and almost entirely white market town in East Yorkshire, everyone would get their takeaway meals from either the chippy or, if they were feeling more cosmopolitan, from the '"chinky". A few years later, as a teenager, my friends and I would talk about people getting "monged" when they drank too much. There was no racist or disablist 'intent' in this use of language. Nonetheless, it was still racist, or disablist. That doesn't mean that everyone who ever said those things is a bad person. It isn't necessarily a big drama. But the world is a little bit better, I think, now that the vast majority people in my home town would say they are getting a chinese meal for their takeaway tea when they don't fancy the chippy (or a curry or a pizza - that choices have also improved!). 

It isn't all that tricky. My elderly dad, now in a specialist care home with a range of illnesses including significant dementia, has probably gone back to getting it wrong. His brother (a relatively traditional working class north-eastern bloke brought up in a pit village who worked most of his life for the co-op and became a home owner for the first time when Maggie flogged off the council estate so we aren't aren't talking about some lentil leftie Islington champagne socialist) made the change to talking about getting a 'chinese takeaway' instead, and has stuck with it. Probably only in the last 20 years, once he was into his sixties. Change can happen.

And it's not just about intent.


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## bpsmith (13 May 2018)

mjr said:


> Yes, including turning a wish for something that would probably reduce bullying into a false dichotomy of either being useless or eradicating all bullying. HTH HAND


This will be my last post in this thread, as you are exaggerating what I said now.

I have experienced my share of bullying and it’s not good. Having a step through bike is not the root of all bullying. It always manifests itself based on the people in question. Believe me.


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## nickyboy (13 May 2018)

User13710 said:


> Candid discussions around our unthinking use of everyday language have resulted in lots of gradual changes, too many to list all of them. As just one example, it is now no longer acceptable to refer to something regarded as a bit pathetic as "gay", except perhaps among a few unreconstructed old men and groups of 9-year-old boys. I think that's an entirely good thing, isn't it?



That's correct but it pays to select one's targets carefully. In choosing to use Granny Gear as the modus for debate folk risk looking, frankly, ridiculous


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## Tin Pot (13 May 2018)

.


Tin Pot said:


> Shaft.
> Ball (bearing).
> Sprocket.
> Office bike.
> ...



Rim! Rim! How could I forget rim?

Oh wait, all genders have those. Dammit.

@Fnaar


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## Inertia (13 May 2018)

[QUOTE 5243008, member: 45"]"What do people think about the term 'granny gear'?"

Hard to ask that question without asking that question.[/QUOTE]
Plus this is a discussion forum, why are we being asked to think carefully about our questions? Sometimes someone will have a thought and just want to ask if anyone else has thought it too.

People ask lots of questions on CC, some very daft. They usually do so without a raft of people telling them how stupid the question is and that they shouldnt even ask the question because it will trivialise the subject.


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## snorri (13 May 2018)

Inertia said:


> its been used as an insult if someone dared to go into the granny gear.


I got so sick of the insults I went and bought a Rohloff hub, that fixed 'em, overnight cure, they don't know which gear I'm in now.


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## mjr (13 May 2018)

Another reason I don't understand the use of "granny ring" is that it's longer than "small ring" so users are making extra effort to be less clear and possibly offend someone. It suggests really bad decision-making.


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## FishFright (13 May 2018)

As ever when sexism is discussed before long it turns into a testosterone fuelled head butting session.

Time to grow up boys or shut up boys.


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## screenman (13 May 2018)

Odd how things like this that years ago were not thought offensive but now are to some. I wonder what we think fine now will be upsetting people in another 40 years 

Inner ring is the term I use.


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## Inertia (13 May 2018)

screenman said:


> Odd how things like this that years ago were not thought offensive but now are to some. I wonder what we think fine now will be upsetting people in another 40 years
> 
> Inner ring is the term I use.


Its odd that people think people are offended by this when noone (I think ) has said they are


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## screenman (13 May 2018)

Inertia said:


> Its odd that people think people are offended by this when noone (I think ) has said they are



Things like this.


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## Inertia (13 May 2018)

screenman said:


> Things like this.


Ah well a word that changed over time and was used an a derogatory way at one point would be the word gay. I think TMN mentioned it at some point in the discussion


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## Salty seadog (13 May 2018)

Giddy up thread, I think I see the Fray Bentos chat up ahead.


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## Inertia (13 May 2018)

Salty seadog said:


> Giddy up thread, I think I see the Fray Bentos chat up ahead.


Well thats one way of getting me out of the thread


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## Tin Pot (13 May 2018)

Inertia said:


> Well thats one way of getting me out of the thread



You’re welcome on the GDPR and Strava thread. If, of course, monitoring of everywhere people go, who they associate with, what they say and more being gathered by a private company is of interest.

Little take up so far but it’s first page results on both google and bing for those two terms 
https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/strava-your-information-gdpr.233893/


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## Mugshot (13 May 2018)

Tin Pot said:


> You’re welcome on the GDPR and Strava thread. If, of course, monitoring of everywhere people go, who they associate with, what they say and more being gathered by a private company is of interest.
> 
> Little take up so far but it’s first page results on both google and bing for those two terms
> https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/strava-your-information-gdpr.233893/


Totally OT, but you have to admire a man that takes the time to find out where the threads he's started are ranked on the search engines.


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## Tin Pot (13 May 2018)

Mugshot said:


> Totally OT, but you have to admire a man that takes the time to find out where the threads he's started are ranked on the search engines.


Haha - actually I was searching for more information on the subject.


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## classic33 (13 May 2018)

Inertia said:


> Ah well a word that changed over time and was used an a derogatory way at one point would be the word gay. I think TMN mentioned it at some point in the discussion


Wouldn't that depend on the person who chose to use it?


User said:


> Nope... not when it's a gay/faggot/queer/shirt-lifter using it.


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## Inertia (13 May 2018)

classic33 said:


> Wouldn't that depend on the person who chose to use it?


It could, and the context as well possibly. Even then it may still offend someone.

[edit] I’m should add I’m speaking in general here rather than that one word. The word gay is a word that is used inoffensively now afaik. I’ve still seen kids use it in a derogatory way though.


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## Inertia (13 May 2018)

Tin Pot said:


> You’re welcome on the GDPR and Strava thread. If, of course, monitoring of everywhere people go, who they associate with, what they say and more being gathered by a private company is of interest.
> 
> Little take up so far but it’s first page results on both google and bing for those two terms
> https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/strava-your-information-gdpr.233893/


Impressive stuff! I’ll keep it in mind


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## gavroche (14 May 2018)

User13710 said:


> Yes. It's the same frame of reference that believes that some makes/types of cars are inferior and open to mockery because they are 'for girls'.


Well, some cars really are.


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## Tim Hall (14 May 2018)

gavroche said:


> Well, some cars really are.


Care to elucidate?


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## slowmotion (14 May 2018)

Tim Hall said:


> Care to elucidate?


It would be a very brave person who puts their foot into the gaping jaws of that trap.


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## Seevio (14 May 2018)

slowmotion said:


> It would be a very brave person who puts their foot into the gaping jaws of that trap.


Brave. Or drunk. I give you the Peugeot 206 convertible. Admittedly it's inferior because it's a Peugeot rather than because it's a girl's car but it may be close enough.


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## slowmotion (14 May 2018)

Seevio said:


> Brave. Or drunk. I give you the Peugeot 206 convertible. Admittedly it's inferior because it's a Peugeot rather than because it's a girl's car but it may be close enough.


Back in the 1980s, I did notice that the drivers of soft top Golf GTis (aka "Pram Cars" ) were often alarmingly beautiful young women. Does that make me a very bad person?


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## Pale Rider (14 May 2018)

slowmotion said:


> It would be a very brave person who puts their foot into the gaping jaws of that trap.



Nonetheless, my contribution is a Ford Focus convertible.

I had one, and was ribbed by several chums for buying a 'hairdresser's car'.

Disgraceful stereotyping, including clear references to male hairdressers being homosexual.

I was so offended it's a wonder I ever got over it.


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## gavroche (14 May 2018)

Tim Hall said:


> Care to elucidate?


Fiat 500 spring to mind and Ford Ka.


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## vickster (14 May 2018)

gavroche said:


> Fiat 500 spring to mind and Ford Ka.


Why? Other than the fact that they are small maybe?


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## User10119 (14 May 2018)

Pale Rider said:


> Mmm, we've just got rid of Jack and up pops Jill.


Care to elucidate?


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## gavroche (14 May 2018)

vickster said:


> Why? Other than the fact that they are small maybe?


Can't explain why, they just do. This is another of life's mysteries.


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## vickster (14 May 2018)

gavroche said:


> Can't explain why, they just do. This is another of life's mysteries.


Just sexist stereotyping then probably started by that idiot Clarkson and his ilk?


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## Moderators (14 May 2018)

This thread has wandered well off the topic of 'granny gears' and so is now closed.


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