# Crap service



## Solecyclist (23 Mar 2019)

I dont know if anybody has experienced crap service from a bike repair centre. Im shocked i went to my local bike repair shop to service my front mech shimano 105.The mecanic said hed repaired the mech and serviced it i rode my bike home but the problem was still there. I rode back the following week and showed the cybotech trained technician. He took the bike for an hour and and i returned he told me had had solved the problem but it just got worse so the front mech wouldn't work upon further inspection i noticed the plastic sheath near the handle bars had a huge split down it and the gear cable had frayed within what a shock. Cybotech mechanic.. My backside a first year rookie should have spotted that. Im now taking my bike to another centre. I guess service is questionable these days.


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## classic33 (23 Mar 2019)

Does he work with Vintage bikes?


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## Pat "5mph" (23 Mar 2019)

classic33 said:


> Does he work with Vintage bikes?


Moving to general


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## Solecyclist (23 Mar 2019)

classic33 said:


> Does he work with Vintage bikes?


No he doesnt work there


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## Ajax Bay (23 Mar 2019)

Solecyclist said:


> upon further inspection i noticed the plastic sheath near the handle bars had a huge split down it and the gear cable had frayed within . . . .
> Im now taking my bike to another centre. I guess service is questionable these days.


I guess some riders' powers of observation before they take it the first time to "a bike repair centre" (what is that btw: you're local bike shop?) could be sharpened up too.
They should have spotted the cables needed replacement first time though.
Learn to do it yourself.


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## ozboz (23 Mar 2019)

I had a crap £200 + service from a local bs in Richmond , had to take it back twice and got crap excuses , the most annoying was I paid for a new BB and installation on their recommendation, and it never happened, more fool me , at the time I should have perused it and got my money back , I do all myself now, it’s all on youtube or GCN,


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## snorri (23 Mar 2019)

Solecyclist said:


> My backside a first year rookie should have spotted that. Im now taking my bike to another centre. I guess service is questionable these days.


How do you know if the other centre will do a good job for you?
I would be taking it back to the shop to complain or ask for a refund, you owe it to your fellow cyclists. The shop will not improve their service if customers accept shoddy work without critical comment. It's the customers responsibility to report the problem, not to diagnose the fault.
If you don't complain, other cyclists will be inconvenienced, just as you were.


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## rualexander (23 Mar 2019)

What does a front mech service consist of?


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## Globalti (24 Mar 2019)

Good question. What can you service or repair on a front mech?

I'm dead against the whole idea of "servicing" a bike. A car will continue driving reliably and all you need to do is change the oils and filters and renew worn brakes but a bike is a delicate assembly of parts, which needs constant tweaking as things wear. If you allow it to reach the stage where it needs a full refurbishment you're guilty of neglect; to then hand it to a distracted teenager in a busy shop and expect them to put it right is even worse a mistake.


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## fossyant (24 Mar 2019)

The shop should have spotted the worn cable though (and possibly so should the OP) but the OP is new to bikes - some folk aren't interested in how things work, including cars, so prefer to have an expert fix it.


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## Alien8 (24 Mar 2019)

I guess the point the OP is trying to make is the claim that something is fixed when it ain't.

If the problem is repeatable and easily observable what's the point of claiming you've fixed something if you haven't?

Ultimately, self-fettling is the way to go.


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## Blue Hills (24 Mar 2019)

I once had a problem with front gears not changing properly. Took it to a shop who said they had fixed it. Gawd knows how they could think let alone claim that as the first ride showed that they hadn't.

I took my ignorant blinkers off and had a good peer at the business end. 

It turned out that the join in the metal bottle cage had broken and that the resultant prong was obstructing the front mech's movement. Changed the water bottle and then all was fine. Since then I have done most things myself.

Not hard with The Park Book of Bicycle Maintenance and a pair of open eyes.


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## Blue Hills (24 Mar 2019)

Ps, OP, if you are anywhere near south east london I can recommend a good bike shop for fixing stuff.


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## vickster (24 Mar 2019)

Blue Hills said:


> Ps, OP, if you are anywhere near south east london I can recommend a good bike shop for fixing stuff.


Pretty sure he’s in Nottinghamshire


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## Blue Hills (24 Mar 2019)

Ok, thanks vickster.

I do wish folks would put their approx lo on their profile* it's hardly pinpoint stalking data.

* And not those super clever cryptic clue things.

For anyone else

Take a bow mr vaidas and his mech skills.

Saved a couple of my bikes, nice modest chap to deal with, very close to an overground stop so even worth travelling some distance for.

http://www.vaidasbicycles.com


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## vickster (24 Mar 2019)

Blue Hills said:


> Ok, thanks vickster.
> 
> I do wish folks would put their approx lo on their profile* it's hardly pinpoint stalking data.
> 
> ...


Maybe he doesn’t know how or doesn’t wish to. I removed mine for a very specific reason, nothing to do with CCers stalking however


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## SkipdiverJohn (24 Mar 2019)

£200 for a _service_?? On a push bike? I really cannot understand why everybody doesn't do their own maintenance. A lot of issues can be sorted at home at nil or very little cost, in less time than the owner will spend taking the bike round to the LBS - and they aren't going to be bike-less for a couple of days either whilst they wait for the LBS to get round to looking at it, and then have to waste more time going back to pick it up afterwards. Bikes aren't exactly complicated machines.



Globalti said:


> I'm dead against the whole idea of "servicing" a bike. A car will continue driving reliably and all you need to do is change the oils and filters and renew worn brakes but a bike is a delicate assembly of parts, which needs constant tweaking as things wear. If you allow it to reach the stage where it needs a full refurbishment you're guilty of neglect.



I agree - up to a point. Most stuff, like brakes and gears adjustment, is something you should be doing on an ongoing basis as soon as the lever travel gets too great or you aren't getting clean gear changes. You certainly shouldn't be leaving it until the brakes or gears stop working or until you get to whatever month in the year is the anniversary of when you bought the bike. However, certain other things, such as headset, BB, and wheel bearings, really should be stripped down and regreased on a regular basis BEFORE they get to the point of running completely dry and feeling rough.
A badly-maintained bike is NOT enjoyable to ride, and frankly, anyone who lacks the mechanical sympathy needed to keep their bike in good order, DESERVES to ride a horrible maladjusted bike. Even my salvaged ones, that may look like complete sheds, still ride properly and have functional brakes and gears.


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## Phaeton (24 Mar 2019)

vickster said:


> Maybe he doesn’t know how or doesn’t wish to. I removed mine for a very specific reason, nothing to do with CCers stalking however


Sorry about that but the court order made it clear


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## vickster (24 Mar 2019)

Phaeton said:


> Sorry about that but the court order made it clear


Huh?


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## Blue Hills (24 Mar 2019)

vickster said:


> Maybe he doesn’t know how or doesn’t wish to. I removed mine for a very specific reason, nothing to do with CCers stalking however


Well that's definitely cryptic.


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## Blue Hills (24 Mar 2019)

Got to agree with you above skipdiver .£200 for a service (ie fettling, lubing etc) strikes me as somewhat bonkers. And by handing it over to someone else to fix it seems to me that you are never going to develop any feel for the thing between your legs.
As the revered brucey over on the other place says there are some key bits on a bike that if kept well maintained and lubed can last your own lifetime.


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## snorri (24 Mar 2019)

This thread illustrates the problems arising as a result of the influence of cycle sport on transport cycling . We in the UK have been brainwashed by the cycle industry to accept a product which provides better performance at the expense of reliability and low level maintenance.
The derailleur system fitted on the vast majority of bicycles to be seen in bike shops and bike web sites in this country is a disaster for anyone who just wants a bike to get a few miles to and from the shops or work, and has no desire to become a part time cycle mechanic..


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## Blue Hills (24 Mar 2019)

i think you have rather overstated the case against the derailleur there.

I'd like to see you take apart my brommie's 5 speed hub gear.


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## Ajax Bay (24 Mar 2019)

snorri said:


> The derailleur system fitted on the vast majority of bicycles to be seen in bike shops and bike web sites in this country is a disaster


Ehh? Disaster in what way?
Vast majority are 8 speed or less and have indexed changers.


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## vickster (24 Mar 2019)

Blue Hills said:


> Well that's definitely cryptic.


Deliberately so


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## Phaeton (24 Mar 2019)

vickster said:


> Huh?


Clearly a poor attempt at humour


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## Globalti (24 Mar 2019)

fossyant said:


> The shop should have spotted the worn cable though (and possibly so should the OP) but the OP is new to bikes - some folk aren't interested in how things work, including cars, so prefer to have an expert fix it.



That's all very well if the shop can afford a trained mechanic but all too often they employ kids with little experience who are distracted by their phones, a loud radio, a stream of favour-seekers and tyre-kickers and so on. I do know of a couple of local mechanics who I trust but there are far more who I wouldn't dream of handing my precious bike.


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## SkipdiverJohn (24 Mar 2019)

snorri said:


> The derailleur system fitted on the vast majority of bicycles to be seen in bike shops and bike web sites in this country is a disaster for anyone who just wants a bike to get a few miles to and from the shops or work, and has no desire to become a part time cycle mechanic..



Back in the days when hub gears were limited to three, or at a push, four ratios, derailleurs made good sense for the sporting or touring cyclist who needed a wide spread of ratios. They still make sense to the cyclist who needs the ratio spread_ at an affordable price, _because a budget derailleur set up is miles cheaper than a precision-engineered internal hub that can offer the same range of gears.
What I actually see as pointless though, are the really expensive derailleurs, because at that price level, you might as well go for a Rolls-Royce quality internal hub gear offering multiple ratios and save yourself all the maintenance and risk of impact damage knocking it out of kilter. However, the cycle industry makes a lot of money selling replacement cassettes, chains, and rear mechs to weekend warriors, whereas they would not make so much selling them a new hub gear once every 20 years!
No-one is forcing us to use derailleurs though, I have more than one 3-speed roadster fitted with Sturmey AW hub gears that are perfectly fit for purpose when used for local utility cycling. For just knocking around on flattish terrain for trips of 5 miles or less, they are my preferred option. However, even a six-speed derailleur beats an AW 3-speed hands down when I need to get up a hill or battle against a headwind.


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## bladderhead (24 Mar 2019)

Alien8 said:


> Ultimately, self-fettling is the way to go.


That sort of thing makes you go blind.


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## ozboz (24 Mar 2019)

Blue Hills said:


> Got to agree with you above skipdiver .£200 for a service (ie fettling, lubing etc) strikes me as somewhat bonkers. And by handing it over to someone else to fix it seems to me that you are never going to develop any feel for the thing between your legs.
> As the revered brucey over on the other place says there are some key bits on a bike that if kept well maintained and lubed can last your own lifetime.



200+ was for more than fettling and lube as you put it, I got the bike , a ‘97 full suss mountain bike second hand, it had been well used , so was in need of a full service , Perhaps we use the word service when we should use overhaul , cassettes , chainwheels wear , chains and cables stretch regardless of how much oil you put on , they will wear , the wheel bearings need repacking , shocks rear and front forks need seals etc to be renewed given time, It seemed a good idea to have all jobs done at the same time, I was let down , I was answering the OP ,


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## SkipdiverJohn (24 Mar 2019)

Suspension MTB's are inherently a massive maintenance liability, as they have far too many wearing parts in them. I won't touch them with a bargepole, mine are 26" rigids from the late 80's/early 90's and are no worse than any other derailleur gear bike to maintain.


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## Blue Hills (24 Mar 2019)

ozboz said:


> 200+ was for more than fettling and lube as you put it, I got the bike , a ‘97 full suss mountain bike second hand, it had been well used , so was in need of a full service , Perhaps we use the word service when we should use overhaul , cassettes , chainwheels wear , chains and cables stretch regardless of how much oil you put on , they will wear , the wheel bearings need repacking , shocks rear and front forks need seals etc to be renewed given time, It seemed a good idea to have all jobs done at the same time, I was let down , I was answering the OP ,


If bits are included a different matter. 
Cables are cheap though (my gear cables cost £1 each) and I think it a good idea to do those yourself once you are a regular cyclist as well and have a few laid by - that way, you are encouraged to keep an eye on things (takes seconds every now and again) and any problems can be sorted pronto - there is often quite a waiting list for bike shop repairs and seems a pity to have a bike off the road, particularly if your only one, for a week or so.


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## Blue Hills (24 Mar 2019)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Suspension MTB's are inherently a massive maintenance liability, as they have far too many wearing parts in them. I won't touch them with a bargepole, mine are 26" rigids from the late 80's/early 90's and are no worse than any other derailleur gear bike to maintain.


Yes, suspension has its uses but best avoided unless you have a real need.
And I know people do but I'd never have it on a bike used for touring.
I had a very nice dale frame with a short travel "city" suspension - eventually took all the bits off it to put on a steel frame relying on pneumatic tyres for all the suspension I really need.


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## Ajax Bay (24 Mar 2019)

ozboz said:


> cables stretch regardless of how much oil you put on


Cables do not stretch, other than elastically under tension (ie temporary and reversible when tension removed).


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## ozboz (24 Mar 2019)

Ajax Bay said:


> Cables do not stretch, other than elastically under tension (ie temporary and reversible when tension removed).



This contradictory to what I have been told and read on websites,


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## bladderhead (24 Mar 2019)

I have gone over 55000 miles on the same suspension components. No problems so far. Mostly road and some bridle paths etc, though, no downhill or that sort of thing.


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## TheDoctor (24 Mar 2019)

ozboz said:


> This contradictory to what I have been told and read on websites,


I think what actually happens when 'cables stretch' is more that the cable housing, ferrules and so on compress a little. It has exactly the same effect as the cable stretching, and TBH it's a bit pedantic to state it's one rather than the other. We all know what the phrase means


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## Smokin Joe (24 Mar 2019)

snorri said:


> The derailleur system fitted on the vast majority of bicycles to be seen in bike shops and bike web sites in this country is a disaster for anyone who just wants a bike to get a few miles to and from the shops or work, and has no desire to become a part time cycle mechanic..


Eh?

The only maintenance the derailleurs on any bike I've owned needs is a twiddle of the adjuster after the first 50 miles or so when everything has bedded in and a cable change every couple of years. Other than that they are fit and forget.


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## snorri (24 Mar 2019)

Smokin Joe said:


> Eh?
> The only maintenance the derailleurs on any bike I've owned needs is a twiddle of the adjuster after the first 50 miles or so when everything has bedded in and a cable change every couple of years. Other than that they are fit and forget.


Unlimited mileage on a variety of road surfaces in all weathers and nothing more than a cable change after two years?


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## SkipdiverJohn (24 Mar 2019)

Smokin Joe said:


> Eh?
> 
> The only maintenance the derailleurs on any bike I've owned needs is a twiddle of the adjuster after the first 50 miles or so when everything has bedded in and a cable change every couple of years. Other than that they are fit and forget.



What about cleaning all the road filth off the freewheel and gear mechs? They are much worse for picking up filth than hub gears employing a single front + single rear sprocket, which are usually at least partly protected by a chainguard. Derailleurs are totally open to the elements. Plus if you ride off road you can get loads of grass stalks and other plant life all wrapped around the sprockets and in the jockey wheels.


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## Smokin Joe (24 Mar 2019)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> What about cleaning all the road filth off the freewheel and gear mechs? They are much worse for picking up filth than hub gears employing a single front + single rear sprocket, which are usually at least partly protected by a chainguard. Derailleurs are totally open to the elements. Plus if you ride off road you can get loads of grass stalks and other plant life all wrapped around the sprockets and in the jockey wheels.


Five minutes to clean and they are as good as new. I can understand why some people like hub gears because it suits the type of use they get, but you are stuck with the ratios provided by the manufacturer. Derailleurs offer a great deal of versatility in that respect, the ratios my aging limbs now use are a lot different to what I had 50 years ago, or even ten years ago come to that.


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## Smudge (24 Mar 2019)

Never paid an LBS or a bike mechanic to service or fix anything on a bike. When we were lads we learnt how to fix bikes by just having a go at it, with a good deal of trial & error. Nowadays you have the net including youtube to show you.
I dont like even taking my motorcycles in a shop and so i service them myself, the only exception being when they're new and i need the first 600 mile service stamp for the warranty and even then i've come across all sorts of things that haven't been done properly on that simple service.
Do it yourself, you know its done properly then..... and if it isn't, at least you haven't paid for it.


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## Ming the Merciless (24 Mar 2019)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Suspension MTB's are inherently a massive maintenance liability, as they have far too many wearing parts in them. I won't touch them with a bargepole, mine are 26" rigids from the late 80's/early 90's and are no worse than any other derailleur gear bike to maintain.



Hardly massive liability, just a little extra now and again every few years.


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## fossyant (24 Mar 2019)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Suspension MTB's are inherently a massive maintenance liability, as they have far too many wearing parts in them. I won't touch them with a bargepole, mine are 26" rigids from the late 80's/early 90's and are no worse than any other derailleur gear bike to maintain.



They aren't that bad - it's my mainly ridden bike these days, in mud. You've just got to pay a bit more attention to cleaning the stanchions, and spraying a bit of silicon lube near the seals. There are big advantages with all that modern trickery (namely getting over rougher ground quicker)


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## Ajax Bay (24 Mar 2019)

TheDoctor said:


> think what actually happens . . . is . . . that the cable housing, ferrules and so on compress a little. It has exactly the same effect as the cable stretching, and TBH it's a bit pedantic to state it's one rather than the other. We all know what the phrase means


Well maybe, but if the rider doesn't understand what might be happening and put's it down to 'cable stretch' when in fact it's cable outers/ferrules wear (or settling in after first installation), then they may just replace the cable which has 'stretched' (it hasn't).
Pedantic versus sloppy thinking: I know which half of the spectrum I wish to inhabit.
Who is the 'we' in "we all know"?


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## ozboz (24 Mar 2019)

https://www.velofix.com/company/news-events/ask-boris-cable-stretch/


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## Ajax Bay (24 Mar 2019)

"The action of repeatedly shifting up and down, or braking and releasing, will tension and release these cables many times. This action is thought to cause the cables to “stretch” or in essence elongate."
BS. Elasticity. Young's Modulus. Hooke's Law.
And then some wriggling and defining one thing as another:
"“Cable stretch” is actually a broader term used to describe the action of the WHOLE cabling system settling into place. Your brake and shift cables pass through your brake and shift housing-the other key components in the WHOLE cabling system. When housing is cut and capped with ferules, it may not be fully seated into those ferrules, or fully seated into the frame stops, derailleur, brakes, shifters etc. As you shift and brake, a huge portion of the initial settling that occurs is actually the housing fully seating itself into place. Once settled, you can be left with a considerable amount of slack, causing the symptoms above."
All true except that the author is defining "cable stretch"as the "action of the WHOLE cabling system settling into place".


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## ozboz (24 Mar 2019)

Blue Hills said:


> Yes, suspension has its uses but best avoided in case you have a real need.
> And I know people do but I'd never have it on a bike used for touring.
> I had a very nice dale frame with a short travel "city" suspension - eventually took all the bits off it to put on a steel frame relying on pneumatic tyres for all the suspension I really need.



Oh it gets used alright


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## ozboz (24 Mar 2019)

*What Is Cable Stretch?*
Two kinds of stretch occur in cable based on wire rope: constructional stretch and elastic stretch. This stretch is due to two different causes.

_1. Constructional Stretch_ - When cable is made, the load at the closing head is light. Therefore, there are small clearances between the wires and strands, and between the strand and the core. The application of initial load causes wires and strands to seat properly and a slight overall elongation of the strand or cable accompanies this section. The amount of constructional stretch is not constant for all cables - it depends on such variables as type of construction, length of lay, and other factors, including the load applied.

_2. Elastic Stretch_ - Elastic stretch is the actual elongation of the wires of a strand or a cable. This is caused by the application of a load up to the yield point of the metal. The stretch is approximately proportional to the load applied. When the load is released, cable subjected to elastic stretch returns to its approximate original length, providing the stretch has not reached the yield point of the metal.

When the elimination of as much stretch as possible is important, the cables or assemblies can be proof loaded to remove most of the constructional stretch. For assemblies, this process also verifies the holding power of the terminals. Proof loading is usually done by applying a 60% load to the cable or assemblies. This load is based on the minimum breaking strength of the cable or fittings, whichever is lower. Handling the cable as little as possible after prestretching helps eliminate putting constructional stretch back in.


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## BalkanExpress (24 Mar 2019)

Please remember that some of us have almost no mechanical ability. Today I had a bit of time alone so did some “fettling”

An hour to index the daughter’s 8 speed. This does not include time spent warching the bloke with the ‘ tâche on the Park tools video while wondering “why does the rear mech not move when I turn either of the high low screws “

About the same time trying to get my single pivot brakes to centre after braking and releasing the brake.

Then finally, I Stuffied up taping the bars..again.. no, I have no idea where that daffing gap came from. 

And you don’t want to know what happened when I tried to fit a bottom bracket

So, please show some understanding as to why some of us entrust our bikes to “ professionals “ and why we then get doubly frustrated if they end up doing no better a job than we could.


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## lane (24 Mar 2019)

Nothing inherently wrong in taking the bike to a shop if it suits you. Just need to find a reliable one which can be trial and error. If you know any local cyclists worth asking them.


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## Blue Hills (24 Mar 2019)

ozboz said:


> View attachment 459069
> 
> 
> Oh it gets used alright


well in that case all fine and dandy.

Me, I'd go round that big lump.


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## Ajax Bay (30 Mar 2019)

ozboz said:


> *What Is Cable Stretch?*
> Two kinds of stretch occur in cable based on wire rope: constructional stretch and elastic stretch. This stretch is due to two different causes.
> _1. Constructional Stretch_ - When cable is made, the load at the closing head is light. Therefore, there are small clearances between the wires and strands, and between the strand and the core. The application of initial load causes wires and strands to seat properly and a slight overall elongation of the strand or cable accompanies this section.


All good no doubt, but not relevant to cycle cables, which are not "based on wire rope" and have no "core". 
A cycle inner cable is composed of strands of wire braided and/or twisted together.





https://www.cyclist.co.uk/tutorials/1246/the-importance-of-cables-and-how-to-fit-them
"One myth to dispel is that cables stretch over time. Some may do a tiny amount, but really any changes in performance are down to all of the components of the system individually ‘settling in’."

When an additional (tensile) force is applied to a cable it will stretch, elastically, and when that force is removed the cable will return to its original length (in accordance with Hooke's Law). And do so for the life of the cable. In the case of gear cables, this will not affect indexing accuracy.


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## ozboz (30 Mar 2019)

https://www.outsideonline.com/1916521/how-fix-skipping-bike-chain

I’d say this person has a good handle on this


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## Ajax Bay (1 Apr 2019)

ozboz said:


> I’d say this person has a good handle on this


Which he has gripped firmly with a well-used right hand.


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## ozboz (1 Apr 2019)

Whatever


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## User84300 (1 Apr 2019)

I've experienced several cases of bad bike shop service recently, but the less said the better...!

When 'Cyctech certificate trained' youngsters do not even know basic technical knowledge, like how to correctly fit a Hollowtech BB, or tighten a cassette fully, or what a chain that is too long looks like, it makes me wonder what we pay our money for?! (Thankfully, I can now do these things myself!)

Of course, I should point out (to stop any generalising or catastrophising) that of course, there are still some good shops around with old fashioned knowhow and sense


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## Crankarm (4 Apr 2019)

On the occasions in the distant past I had dealings with LBS grease monkeys I wouldn't let them be in charge of a knife and fork let alone a spanner and some one's bike or mine! The only person worth going to in a bike shop is a guy who can properly build wheels. Once you have found this guy stick to him like you would a good dentist. The rest of them are no better than surly teenagers who'd rather be on their playstations than working in a bike shop. My experience of working with these types in retail albeit a slightly different sector was pretty soul destroying and demoralising. Most have pretty low standards and couldn't give a monkeys about providing good customer service and getting things right for customers. But then you can't blame them as business owners pay peanuts which only attracts young monkeys with little commitment to such a dead end job. The lesson to learn here is do you own bike servicing. It's not particularly hard. There are now lots of tutorials and 'how tos' on YT covering most bike servicing topics.


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## screenman (4 Apr 2019)

Crankarm said:


> On the occasions in the distant past I had dealings with LBS grease monkeys I wouldn't let them be in charge of a knife and fork let alone a spanner and some one's bike or mine! The only person worth going to in a bike shop is a guy who can properly build wheels. Once you have found this guy stick to him like you would a good dentist. The rest of them are no better than surly teenagers who'd rather be on their playstations than working in a bike shop. My experience of working with these types in retail albeit a slightly different sector was pretty soul destroying and demoralising. Most have pretty low standards and couldn't give a monkeys about providing good customer service and getting things right for customers. But then you can't blame them as business owners pay peanuts which only attracts young monkeys with little commitment to such a dead end job. The lesson to learn here is do you own bike servicing. It's not particularly hard. There are now lots of tutorials and 'how tos' on YT covering most bike servicing topics.



You cannot blame the bosses alone for low pay, blame the customers who want cheap prices as well, not many bike shops making a fortune nowadays.


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## Crankarm (6 Apr 2019)

screenman said:


> You cannot blame the bosses alone for low pay, blame the customers who want cheap prices as well, not many bike shops making a fortune nowadays.



And bosses and owners of businesses trousering huge amounts of cash compared to their low paid young staff on national minimum wage?


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## screenman (6 Apr 2019)

Crankarm said:


> And bosses and owners of businesses trousering huge amounts of cash compared to their low paid young staff on national minimum wage?



Or small bike shop owners losing money but still paying staff.


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## Smokin Joe (6 Apr 2019)

screenman said:


> Or small bike shop owners losing money but still paying staff.


Quite true in many cases. How many bike shops change hands as viable businesses? Most just lock the doors and walk away when they've had enough, one look through the books is enough to put prospective purchasers off.


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