# Flat pedal moment



## snailracer (21 Feb 2011)

I was slowing down on the approach to a red light and moved my foot from pedal to ground to support myself. When the light turned green, I pushed off, moved my foot back to the pedal and rode on.

Hey, it could happen to anyone, just when you're least expecting it, too.


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## tyred (21 Feb 2011)




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## HLaB (21 Feb 2011)

snailracer said:


> placed my left foot smoothly back onto the pedal and resumed pedalling.


I couldn't always master that bit  which is a bit of a pain with Ti flats


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## Davidc (21 Feb 2011)

Quite remarkable snailracer.

And are you saying you didn't fall off when stopping or starting?

Wasn't it a bit slow and difficult without all that extra power from the upstroke?

And do shoe shops really still sell shoes without cleats fixed to them?


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## MacB (21 Feb 2011)

Truly remarkable, I can't believe that you managed to start off without your foot flying off the pedal resulting in a 10" gouge in your shin and a nasty meeting between crotch and crossbar. I mean, what are you going to chuckle about all the way home now? no-one really has a good laugh on a bike unless they come off and it's even better if there's at least a bit of blood involved. 

Next you'll be claiming that cycling's normal and you can just hop on a bike wearing whatever you like. Honestly, people like you have no idea how things really are.


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## snailracer (21 Feb 2011)

Davidc said:


> Quite remarkable snailracer.
> And are you saying you didn't fall off when stopping or starting?


Indeed I am. However, modesty prevents me from mentioning my _elite riding skills_, honed from decades of dedicated practice.



Davidc said:


> Wasn't it a bit slow and difficult without all that extra power from the upstroke?


As I had severely handicapped myself by being unable to push forward, scrape backwards AND pull up, I could only reach stable forward velocity by virtue of having _colossal leg muscles_, honed from decades of dedicated practice.



Davidc said:


> And do shoe shops really still sell shoes without cleats fixed to them?


What a preposterous suggestion. However, if they did, by virtue of my _esoteric pedal non-attachment system _(normal shoes on flat pedals), I would hypothetically be able to walk between the bike rack and shoe shop without an intervening visit to A&E.


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## potsy (21 Feb 2011)

I personally have put toe clips onto my clipless pedals for the extra security, can't be too careful


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## tyred (21 Feb 2011)

potsy said:


> I personally have put toe clips onto my clipless pedals for the extra security, can't be too careful



For the ultimate belt and braces, why not bolt your shoes to the pedals. Be sure and use high tensile steel bolts of at least 1/2" diameter for added strength and security. Oh, and use castellated nuts and split pins just to make sure they don't come loose.


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## snailracer (21 Feb 2011)

MacB said:


> Truly remarkable, I can't believe that you managed to start off without your foot flying off the pedal resulting in a 10" gouge in your shin and a nasty meeting between crotch and crossbar...


One should file all the sharp teeth off the pedals, complete a course of tetanus jabs and avail oneself of a cricketer's box before undertaking such a _perilous activity_ as riding with flat pedals.


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## snailracer (21 Feb 2011)

For any small children* that might be browsing this forum, do not, under any circumstances, attempt to emulate me by cycling with flat pedals 

(Professional stunt rider, closed circuit)

* Unless you already do trick riding on your BMX.


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## potsy (21 Feb 2011)

Mac's problem is he doesn't have our cat-like grace when he falls off, he ends up in a big heap on the floor, where-as we clipless users always land on our feet like a feline


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## snailracer (21 Feb 2011)

tyred said:


> For the ultimate belt and braces, why not bolt your shoes to the pedals. Be sure and use high tensile steel bolts of at least 1/2" diameter for added strength and security. Oh, and use castellated nuts and split pins just to make sure they don't come loose.


For ultimate strength and security, you can't beat seam welding.


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## MacB (21 Feb 2011)

potsy said:


> Mac's problem is he doesn't have our cat-like grace when he falls off, he ends up in a big heap on the floor, where-as we clipless users always land on our feet like a feline



Nope, can't find anything to argue with there, you're a pussy


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## snailracer (21 Feb 2011)

^


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## potsy (21 Feb 2011)

Git.


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## Davidc (21 Feb 2011)

snailracer said:


> What a preposterous suggestion. However, if they did, by virtue of my _esoteric pedal non-attachment system _(normal shoes on flat pedals), I would hypothetically be able to walk between the bike rack and shoe shop without an intervening visit to A&E.



I'm glad to hear this. Sale of such shoes would of course be a serious offence under the Approved Footwear Regulations, enacted by the Secretary of State for something or other under the Mandatory Use of Pedals With Fixings For Cleats Act two thousand and something, also known as the Thou Shalt Only Use Clipless If You're A Serious Cyclist Law.

In addition wearing them might render you liable to paying road tax, being forced to ignore red signals and to ride around all night on Dartmoor without any lights, and David Cameron might well privatise you, which could be very painful.


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## buggi (21 Feb 2011)

OMG.. I'm doing up my old bike for my brother. He hasn't got proper cycle shoes so i've ordered him flat pedals to tide him over until he gets his shoes? Do you think i should send them back? i'm not sure he can cope with a flat pedal moment!!!


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## snailracer (21 Feb 2011)

^^
As your brother owns no 'proper' cycling shoes, he is clearly not a 'serious' cyclist, or is perhaps a beginner who does not have the benefit of decades of dedicated practice. As such, muscular development in his leg region is unlikely to be sufficiently colossal (IMO at least 0.55 Hoys) to propel a bicycle at stable speeds given the disadvantages of flat pedals, in comparison to the marvelous efficiency of clipless.

I would suggest a course of nandrolone and HGF injections to bulk up his thighs. If his body fails to respond, a diet rich in the equally-potent _Spanish meat_ should have the desired effect. You may be aware that these supplements are popular amongst 'serious' pro race cyclists, who do wear clipless pedals, but are nonetheless handicapped by their documented inability to 'pull up' on the upstroke, in common with your unfortunate brother whilst using flat pedals.


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## youngoldbloke (21 Feb 2011)

tyred said:


> For the ultimate belt and braces, why not bolt your shoes to the pedals. Be sure and use high tensile steel bolts of at least 1/2" diameter for added strength and security. Oh, and use castellated nuts and split pins just to make sure they don't come loose.



Why not just use a pair of these - pyro platforms - the future of pedalling!






Wear flat shoes AND be clipped in!


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## snailracer (21 Feb 2011)

^^
Those would make one resemble the cycling equivalent of _Hannibal Lecter:





_


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## MacB (21 Feb 2011)

I heard a piece of outrageous blasphemy the other day, someone suggested that flat pedals were for accomplished cyclists and clipless for novices. Something about these people would be falling over anyway, the clipless pedals just give them an excuse.


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## snailracer (22 Feb 2011)

^^

By the same logic: cleated shoes are _de rigueur_ for binge-drinking cyclists.


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## GrasB (22 Feb 2011)

snailracer said:


> I was slowing down on the approach to a red light, moved my left foot off the pedal and onto the ground to support myself. When the light turned green, I pushed off, placed my left foot smoothly back onto the pedal and resumed pedalling.
> 
> Hey, it could happen to anyone, just when you're least expecting it, too.


I did this today as well with KEO cleats & left 2 cars for dead... so exactly what is your point?


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## threebikesmcginty (22 Feb 2011)

Legend tells of a mythical rider who was, with use of powerful magic, able to recreate a hilarious clipless moment using only flat pedals and a taxi.


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## Dan B (22 Feb 2011)

I ran over my own feet once using flat pedals. I was riding a recumbent quad, there was a lump in the road, my feet fell off pedals and I ended up with legs folded behind me under the seat. Which wouldn't have been so bad (except that it was giving me a cramp in my calves) were it not also that I then came to a halt in the middle of Piccadilly Circus with the lights against me.

About as amusing as most clipless moments, really


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## snailracer (22 Feb 2011)

GrasB said:


> I did this today as well with KEO cleats & left 2 cars for dead... so exactly what is your point?


Do you ask the hordes of "clipless moment" posters what their point was?

BTW I left about 30 cars for dead from the lights this morning . Granted, they were stuck in a jam...


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## snailracer (22 Feb 2011)

Dan B said:


> I ran over my own feet once using flat pedals. *I was riding a recumbent quad*...


Just punishment for riding such an abomination .


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## Willie Erskine (22 Feb 2011)

I've just done this too. Is it a problem? No really, I'm 50 and done 500 miles over last 5/6 months (on a hybrid!!!) and its happened at least twice now that I can remember. The thing that really concerns me is I was wearing a pair of Karrimor trainers and puma trackie bottoms. Just imagine what could have happened if I'd been wearing lycra padded shorts!

I don't know what to do now, should I just give up? Maybe I'm thinking too much about it and should just carry on. I need advice!

Or maybe not.


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## MacB (22 Feb 2011)

threebikesmcginty said:


> Legend tells of a mythical rider who was, with use of powerful magic, able to recreate a hilarious clipless moment using only flat pedals and a taxi.



superior skills 3BM, superior skills


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## Rohloff_Brompton_Rider (22 Feb 2011)

i too had a flat pedal moment on a recent cc ride. my feet were too warm to be a serious cyclist. i felt out of place with the others, i didn't feel part of the gang, because i wasn't moaning how cold my feet were. it's the last time i'm wearing sensible winter walking boots in cold weather, i don't like being the odd one out!


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## snailracer (22 Feb 2011)

bromptonfb said:


> i too had a flat pedal moment on a recent cc ride. my feet were too warm to be a serious cyclist. i felt out of place with the others, i didn't feel part of the gang, because i wasn't moaning how cold my feet were. it's the last time i'm wearing sensible winter walking boots in cold weather, i don't like being the odd one out!


Your astonishing, God-given ability to ride flat pedals is both a blessing and a curse, but keep your chin up - there are others like you, you are not alone, we feel your pain .


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## MacB (22 Feb 2011)

snailracer said:


> Your astonishing, God-given ability to ride flat pedals is both a blessing and a curse, but keep your chin up - there are others like you, you are not alone, we feel your pain .



Not so sure, he can't really call himself a serious cyclist if he has toasty toes, no suffering for his hobby sport there.


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## snailracer (22 Feb 2011)

MacB said:


> ... no suffering for his hobby *sport* there.


Road cycling is not really a _sport_ as most understand the term, it is _applied biochemistry_.

There is no truth to the rumour that my remarkable ability to keep pace, despite the handicap of flat pedals, is fuelled by _biochemical supplements_ so favoured by pro racers - I can assure you that my D-cup man-boobs are purely a consequence of middle-age spread.


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## GrasB (22 Feb 2011)

snailracer said:


> Do you ask the hordes of "clipless moment" posters what their point was?


See clipless moment posts are mildly amusing anecdotes about someone who is learning a new skill getting it wrong. This has no such amusement there, it just seems some kind of (failing) ironic dig at clipless users.


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## snailracer (22 Feb 2011)

GrasB said:


> See clipless moment posts are mildly amusing anecdotes about someone who is learning a new skill getting it wrong. This has no such amusement there, it just seems some kind of (failing) ironic dig at clipless users.


Well, this thread has more replies and more views than the current "clipless moment" thread on this forum (where I believe some fellow, rather amusingly, rode into an overflowing river) so it must have some appeal.

If this thread is not to your taste, you don't have to read or post in it (twice).


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## Rohloff_Brompton_Rider (22 Feb 2011)

GrasB said:


> See clipless moment posts are mildly amusing anecdotes about someone who is learning a new skill getting it wrong. This has no such amusement there, it just seems some kind of (failing) ironic dig at clipless users.



seems funny to me. why are you taking this thread so serious?


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## snailracer (22 Feb 2011)




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## chrispidgeon (22 Feb 2011)

I'm gutted. I've just put SPD pedals on following YEARS of flats usage.

I'm now in turmoil.


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## snailracer (22 Feb 2011)

^^
To reconcile your conflict, use clipless on one side, flat pedal on the other.

No problem


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## chrispidgeon (22 Feb 2011)

^^
Marvellous idea. And I can put the pedal spanner I bought to change to clipless good use before each ride by changing them around.


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## snailracer (22 Feb 2011)

^^
Just remember to keep track of which foot is which when you hop to the toilet during the loo-break.


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## chrispidgeon (22 Feb 2011)

^^

Yes, wise words...(although they are MTB ones, so can walk, but we'll leave that detail out so as to not spoil the comic value)


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## snailracer (22 Feb 2011)

^^
MTB? The bushes for you, then


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## potsy (22 Feb 2011)

MacB said:


> Not so sure, he can't really call himself a serious cyclist if he has toasty toes, no suffering for his hobby sport there.



Defo an unserious (is that a word?) cyclist Mac, he doesn't even wear a helmet


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## Davidc (22 Feb 2011)

chrispidgeon said:


> ^^
> Marvellous idea. And I can put the pedal spanner I bought to change to clipless good use before each ride by changing them around.



With either sort of pedals you'll never get the left pedal to screw onto the right hand crank and vice versa, much better to just take the spanner back to the shop and ask for a refund.



Which just makes me think - how about taking the pedals off, having a hole drilled in each ankle and getting spindles threaded at the crank end and just plain at the other end fitted to the bike? To put your foot on the ground you just move your leg away from the bike and the spindle comes out, to start up again you lift up your leg and move it so the spindle goes back through the hole.


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## PhunkPilot (22 Feb 2011)

Surely if you use clipless one side and flat pedal the other you'll just cycle round in circles due to the uneven spread of power from your colossal leg muscles?


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## potsy (22 Feb 2011)

PhunkPilot said:


> Surely if you use clipless one side and flat pedal the other you'll just cycle round in circles due to the uneven spread of power from your colossal leg muscles?



That's why you have to remember to swap which foot is clipped in every ride, or you'll end up deformed





Friend of mine has just text me to tell me of his 1st clipless moment today, saying that he fell off 3 times last year on the flatties


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## snailracer (22 Feb 2011)

PhunkPilot said:


> Surely if you use clipless one side and flat pedal the other you'll just *cycle round in circles* due to the uneven spread of power from your colossal leg muscles?


Not on a single-tracked vehicle like a bicycle, duh!

There WILL be a pronounced 'nodding' motion, though  You'd need a pillow tied to the stem to avoid bruising your chin.


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## snailracer (22 Feb 2011)

Davidc said:


> ...
> Which just makes me think - how about taking the pedals off, having a hole drilled in each ankle and getting spindles threaded at the crank end and just plain at the other end fitted to the bike? To put your foot on the ground you just move your leg away from the bike and the spindle comes out, to start up again you lift up your leg and move it so the spindle goes back through the hole.



Gruesome 

And think of all the weight you could save by chopping off your redundant feet...

Blood doping is rather gruesome, if you think about it, but racers do it.

Actually, DON'T think about it.


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## MacB (22 Feb 2011)

Ok folks, that's enough, this just isn't funny, it doesn't even stack up against a mildly amusing(to some) 'clipless' anecdote. I don't know what Snailracer was thinking of, he clearly has no concept of what makes a funny thread. Thankfully the cavalry arrived and a proper cyclist told him just how unfunny this whole idea was. 

Now to the lower orders it may have appeared that the 'serious' cyclist was really posting his unfunny comments in a fit of pique after his tale of defeating two cars, thanks to his 'Keo Power', went unheeded. Or maybe we just got confused between Keo and Cleo and thought he was driving a poncy little car not riding a bike...the jury's out on that one. But thankfully the natural order has been restored and we now understand that we're not funny, clipless pedals rule and it's never, absolutely not even remotely, a subject that's worthy of mockery. 

It's not come a moment too soon either, in a mad moment I popped to the shops on my bike at lunchtime, wearing trainers and using flat pedals. I managed to avoid serious injury and it only took me two hours longer than the same, 2 mile trip, using clipless pedals. I had a lucky escape and now know that it's not big and it's not clever, messing about with those dangerous flat pedals. 

Think of the kids, what sort of example am I setting?


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## threebikesmcginty (22 Feb 2011)

Well I had to pop over to the other side of town this morning and I wore trainers and used a bike with flat pedals, it took me 30 minutes longer than if I'd not bothered going in the first place.


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## MacB (22 Feb 2011)

threebikesmcginty said:


> Well I had to pop over to the other side of town this morning and I wore trainers and used a bike with flat pedals, it took me 30 minutes longer than if I'd not bothered going in the first place.



Potsy Some might say that your arrival truly heralds an end to the humour


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## snailracer (22 Feb 2011)

MacB said:


> ... it may have appeared that the *'serious' cyclist* was really posting his unfunny comments in a fit of pique after his tale of defeating two cars, thanks to his 'Keo Power', went unheeded...


GrasB, henceforth to be known as ... *KEO MAN!*


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## threebikesmcginty (22 Feb 2011)

MacB said:


> Potsy Some might say that your arrival truly heralds an end to the humour



Reading your posts I hadn't realised it had started, Mr Mardy Pedals.


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## MacB (22 Feb 2011)

threebikesmcginty said:


> Reading your posts I hadn't realised it had started, Mr Mardy Pedals.



That's it, have a dig at me for something Potsy told me to say!!!


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## snailracer (22 Feb 2011)

potsy said:


> That's why you have to remember to swap which foot is clipped in every ride, or you'll end up deformed
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Symmetry is SO overrated, though.


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## threebikesmcginty (22 Feb 2011)

MacB said:


> That's it, have a dig at me for something Potsy told me to say!!!



You're Potsy's patsy?


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## MacB (22 Feb 2011)

threebikesmcginty said:


> You're Potsy's patsy?



close, I think it's Pussy Potsy's Patsy


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## Davidc (22 Feb 2011)

MacB, will you please answer for us the BIG question? The one which is now sorely troubling us.

What is the status, as a subgroup within this highly intellectual and most serious of issues, of flat pedals fitted with toe clips?

This is most important, for, believe it or not, there are still those who insist on using this antedeluvian technology. This despite its having been shunned by both the serious cyclists of the world, and by the remaining members of the flat earth pedals society.

Answers are needed for both the variety of toe clip which has a strap, and also for the variety which has no lateral restraint of this sort.

We must have answers, for there are those who lurk in this place who use these nefarious contraptions, and who despite having to hide in the shadows to keep their sordid secret to themselves will nonetheless be waiting anxiously for your response ............


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## Sheffield_Tiger (22 Feb 2011)

..and the scars from the beartraps scraping up my shin weren't bad enough to be for life, so there was no lasting injury


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## brokenbetty (22 Feb 2011)

Going the other way...







(ref http://www.chicagobikeblog.com/2008/10/bicycling-indus.html)


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## snailracer (22 Feb 2011)

Davidc said:


> ...What is the status, as a subgroup within this highly intellectual and most serious of issues, of flat pedals fitted with toe clips?... both the variety of toe clip which has a strap, and also for the variety which has no lateral restraint of this sort...


To me, this thread is not about saying one type of pedal is better than another. Just about every type of pedal devised will have a particular application where it is the most suitable pedal for a specific rider. 

What troubles me are the myths that are invented and perpetuated about the supposed advantages of one type of pedal vs another. Clipless pedals are a juicy target for me because, IMO, the bike trade promotes them because they are expensive items that make large profits, not because they are the most suitable solution for each customer.

I can appreciate the suitability of clipless for certain uses, such as racing. However, clipless pedal systems are expensive, restrict the choice of shoe, mechanically complex, prone to dirt and wear, have safety issues with release and even walking,_ should be purchased by riders who are properly informed_. IMHO, this thread serves a worthwhile purpose by knocking some of the many misleading myths that surround clipless pedals. If someone got a laugh out of it as well, all the better.


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## JNR (22 Feb 2011)

snailracer said:


> To me, this thread is not about saying one type of pedal is better than another. Just about every type of pedal devised will have a particular application where it is the most suitable pedal for a specific rider.
> 
> What troubles me are the myths that are invented and perpetuated about the supposed advantages of one type of pedal vs another. Clipless pedals are a juicy target for me because, IMO, the bike trade promotes them because they are expensive items that make large profits, not because they are the most suitable solution for each customer.
> 
> I can appreciate the suitability of clipless for certain uses, such as racing. However, clipless pedal systems are expensive, restrict the choice of shoe, mechanically complex, prone to dirt and wear, have safety issues with release and even walking,_ should be purchased by riders who are properly informed_. IMHO, this thread serves a worthwhile purpose by knocking some of the many misleading myths that surround clipless pedals. If someone got a laugh out of it as well, all the better.



Oh come on. 

Clipless pedals barely require any maintanence, wearing cycling shoes with road cleats hasn't stopped me cycling to work every day and has avoided slipping on the pedals whilst removing the old system of reaching down and pulling clips onto my shoes via old fashioned systems. This has enhanced every single mile of riding I do and that's with SPD-SL, I believe there are easier pedals to work with.

It really isn't hard to clip into pedals. You might have the odd moment at the beginning, just as you would with any pedal system designed to make pedalling easier.


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## Rohloff_Brompton_Rider (23 Feb 2011)

getting too serious for me....i'm out.


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## snailracer (23 Feb 2011)

JNR said:


> ...Clipless pedals barely require any maintanence...
> It really isn't hard to clip into pedals. You might have the odd moment at the beginning...


Ha, I see you didn't contest the other disadvantages I mentioned, and confirmed one.



snailracer said:


> ... clipless pedal systems are expensive, restrict the choice of shoe, mechanically complex, prone to dirt and wear, have safety issues with release and even walking...


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## JonnyBlade (23 Feb 2011)

Cleated pedals are not always better. I was beasting a hill on Sunday when my right foot unexpectedly came out of the cleated pedal in mid flight. One split eye brow, swollen shoulder, lumpy elbow, gravel rashed ass and damaged helmet later I got back on for the last 10 miles home. I suppose I would have been a lot more aware if on flat pedals. You do tend to go a bit mad with the cleated ones


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## Davidc (23 Feb 2011)

JNR said:


> ..... whilst removing the old system of reaching down and pulling clips onto my shoes via old fashioned systems.....



Er - what

I've never done that. But then I've only done about 200,000 miles over the last 43 years using toe clips!

The only times fingers ever go near the pedals is to adjust straps, which is at most once each time you get on using a different pair of shoes!

If you prefer clipless then by all means use them, but I think within the humour this thread just points out that not everyone does.

During my trial of SPD clipless, which lasted 500 miles, what annoyed me most was only being only to ride in special shoes which were awkward for walking. I found the opposite to you in that clipless seriously degtaded my riding experience, and that was without any clipless moments! The best thing about it was packing up and posting everthing off after selling the pedals and shoes at a profit afterwards.


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## tyred (23 Feb 2011)

Personally, I'm just disappointed that I managed to cycle 3,000 miles last year without enjoying a single inch of it because I don't use clipless pedals.


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## Dan B (23 Feb 2011)

Integrated brake/gear systems are also expensive, restrict the choice of brake lever, mechanically complex, prone to dirt and wear, and have safety issues with standing on the pedals of a badly adjusted system and crushing your nuts on the top tube when the indexing is off and the chain slips. But you don't see great long threads about "exploding the myth of sti". It's obvious that your feet aren't attached to the pedals, but you do seem to have a bee firmly ensconced in your bonnet here. Get a sense of proportion, ffs


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## Davidc (23 Feb 2011)

Dan B said:


> Integrated brake/gear systems are also expensive, restrict the choice of brake lever, mechanically complex, prone to dirt and wear, and have safety issues with standing on the pedals of a badly adjusted system and crushing your nuts on the top tube when the indexing is off and the chain slips. But you don't see great long threads about "exploding the myth of sti". It's obvious that your feet aren't attached to the pedals, but you do seem to have a bee firmly ensconced in your bonnet here. Get a sense of proportion, ffs



It's not a serious thread Dan, but does perhaps carry the message that choice is important.

We can always have a thread about who likes STIs, separate shifters and brakes, downtube shifters, indexed or friction, no gears at all. Could be amusing (or on second thoughts be taken too seriously and turn into a slanging match so perhaps not).


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## snailracer (23 Feb 2011)

Dan B said:


> Integrated brake/gear systems are also expensive, restrict the choice of brake lever, mechanically complex, prone to dirt and wear, and have safety issues with standing on the pedals of a badly adjusted system and *crushing your nuts on the top tube when the indexing is off and the chain slips*. But you don't see great long threads about "exploding the myth of sti". It's obvious that your feet aren't attached to the pedals, but you do seem to have a bee firmly ensconced in your bonnet here. Get a sense of proportion, ffs


That's hilarious! Perhaps I should start a thread mocking STI?


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## snailracer (23 Feb 2011)

bromptonfb said:


> getting too serious for me....i'm out.



Smart move, I get the feeling this thread is about to get overrun by hordes of angry clipless fanatics =>           .

I'm out too, thanks to everyone for posting


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## brokenbetty (23 Feb 2011)

JNR said:


> ...It really isn't hard to clip into pedals....



.It really isn't hard to clip into pedals _as long as you are wearing the right shoes_

It's not the clipping that puts me off, it's the shoes. I have this weird idea that shoes should match my outfit rather than my method of transport.

I guess it's about whether you see your bike as a way if getting around or an end in itself.


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## youngoldbloke (23 Feb 2011)

Davidc said:


> Er - what
> 
> I've *never done that*. But then I've only done about 200,000 miles over the last 43 years using toe clips!
> 
> The only times fingers ever go near the pedals is to adjust straps, which is at most once each time you get on using a different pair of shoes!



I am amazed! There is/was little point in using straps with clips if you didn't tighten them each time you used them. Hence the 'quick release' buckle on the straps, which you needed to reach down to to loosen the strap when stopping. They were most efficient and effective if used with the correct cycling shoes - with cleats. I used cleats with straps and clips, and if anything they were more difficult to release than clipless. As I have said before, I find using clipless pedals - the logical development of clips and straps - enhances the cycling experience for me. Each to his/her own ......


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## youngoldbloke (23 Feb 2011)

brokenbetty said:


> .It really isn't hard to clip into pedals _as long as you are wearing the right shoes_
> 
> It's not the clipping that puts me off, it's the shoes. I* have this weird idea that shoes should match my outfit rather than my method of transport.*
> 
> I guess it's about whether you see your bike as a way if getting around or an end in itself.



You mean you don't wear lycra all the time?


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## Davidc (23 Feb 2011)

youngoldbloke said:


> I am amazed! There is/was little point in using straps with clips if you didn't tighten them each time you used them.


I'll carry on adjusting them as I was shown by a top pro many years ago when I did time trials thanks.


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## tyred (23 Feb 2011)

I've often wondered about the advice to pull straps really tight. Surely you risk cutting off circulation in your feet?


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## threebikesmcginty (23 Feb 2011)

Davidc said:


> I'll carry on adjusting them as I was shown by a top pro many years ago when I did time trials thanks.



If you tied a piece of string to the end of one of the straps and then under the shoe, over the crossbar, under the other shoe and then tied the string to the end of the other strap you could tighten the straps by pulling on the string which is conveniently looped over the bar. I think I'm on to something here...


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## MacB (23 Feb 2011)

Dan B said:


> Integrated brake/gear systems are also expensive, restrict the choice of brake lever, mechanically complex, prone to dirt and wear, and have safety issues with standing on the pedals of a badly adjusted system and crushing your nuts on the top tube when the indexing is off and the chain slips. But you don't see great long threads about "exploding the myth of sti". It's obvious that your feet aren't attached to the pedals, but you do seem to have a bee firmly ensconced in your bonnet here. Get a sense of proportion, ffs



It is precisely a sense of proportion that's being discussed, ask about most other bike parts and you'll get balanced responses. But pedals, and skinny tyres, seem to be in a world of their own. Everything will be so much better, you'll be faster and you'll enjoy your cycling much more, it's not a little difference it's like night and day. To be frank, as opposed to being Pussy Potsy's Patsy, I call bullshit on that, not the idea that there's a difference but that it is as marked, and as one sided, as claims make out. I also call bullshit on the idea that anyone not slurping the coolade is just doing it wrong.

Show me some real world data that supports these outrageous claims. Let me see the stats showing number of clipless moments versus number of injuries/deaths via clipless moments. Produce the evidence for the terrible dangers faced by feet slipping on flat pedals. Get some average cyclists and produce their stats with/without clipless pedals and with varying tyre sizes. Measure the size of their smiles after each ride to judge their happiness quotient.

One of the frequent arguments is that the pros use these systems and they wouldn't use something that didn't work. That's quite correct but your average cyclist is so far removed from pro level that comparisons are laughable. If it makes a 10% difference to a pro then your average cyclist would be unlikely to see as much as a 1% difference. Another argument is for safety, your feet don't slip, well plenty of people manage flat pedals without feet slipping, they ride accordingly. That's without accounting for the fact that clipless moments are expected and are not always the 'hilarious' incidents you could be led to believe.

This isn't myth busting, it's discussing the pros and cons of bike parts and should be treated the same as you would all the other bike parts, with a rational look at what you actually get.


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## youngoldbloke (23 Feb 2011)

tyred said:


> I've often wondered about the advice to pull straps really tight. Surely you risk cutting off circulation in your feet?



You soon learn how tight - it's a bit like tying up your shoe laces really.


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## youngoldbloke (23 Feb 2011)

MacB said:


> It is precisely a sense of proportion that's being discussed, ask about most other bike parts and you'll get balanced responses. But pedals, and skinny tyres, seem to be in a world of their own. .......



You have forgotten scary narrow saddles 'like razor blades', and mudguards, and, and .....


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## Davidc (23 Feb 2011)

tyred said:


> I've often wondered about the advice to pull straps really tight. Surely you risk cutting off circulation in your feet?



Done correctly they should never be tight. They should be tightened so that there is no movement relative to the pedal if you try to move your foot upwards, but with no tension in the strap. The shoe is then just secured.

Proper cycling shoes for use with them also have a small ridge so that a definite rearward force is needed to pull the foot out of the clip, but I don't think you can get them any more. They do not have cleats, but do have a section of hard leather under the sole where they meet the pedal. Those shoes are actually worse to walk in than cleated ones - you just fall over they're so slippery.

If the strap is correctly passed through the buckle then it can be tightened by pulling it through, but the strap can't get looser without squeezing the two sides of the buckle together, so once set it doesn't normally need resetting.


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## MacB (23 Feb 2011)

youngoldbloke said:


> You have forgotten scary narrow saddles 'like razor blades', and mudguards, and, and .....



nope, I see rational responses on all other bike parts, generally along the lines of this is what you get, this is the payoff and the ultimate choice is yours. But suggest larger tyres or flat pedals and you get a whole load of old tosh washed down with a gallon of coolade.


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## NorrisCole (23 Feb 2011)

MacB said:


> One of the frequent arguments is that the pros use these systems and they wouldn't use something that didn't work. That's quite correct but your average cyclist is so far removed from pro level that comparisons are laughable. If it makes a 10% difference to a pro then your average cyclist would be unlikely to see as much as a 1% difference. Another argument is for safety, your feet don't slip, well plenty of people manage flat pedals without feet slipping, they ride accordingly. That's without accounting for the fact that clipless moments are expected and are not always the 'hilarious' incidents you could be led to believe.



Show me some real world data that supports these outrageous claims.


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## MacB (23 Feb 2011)

NorrisCole said:


> Show me some real world data that supports these outrageous claims.



is the whole point Norris, do keep up at the back


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## threebikesmcginty (23 Feb 2011)

There's a spreadsheet in there somewhere, MacB, I'll kick off with some data...

I have five bicycles. Three have flat pedals (no clips/straps). Two have 'clipless' (Eggbeaters and SPD). 
The tyre size ranges from 23mm to 45mm. 

I enjoy riding all of them and I have fallen off most of them although only one hilarious clipless moment(TM)

Stick that in your SPSS!


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## NorrisCole (23 Feb 2011)

MacB said:


> is the whole point Norris, do keep up at the back



I was trying to make the point that in your defence of flat pedals you made equally unsubstantiated claims about clipless pedals.

Anyway, if your happy with flats, I'm happy with clipless, the important thing is we're all riding


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## Davidc (23 Feb 2011)

threebikesmcginty said:


> If you tied a piece of string to the end of one of the straps and then under the shoe, over the crossbar, under the other shoe and then tied the string to the end of the other strap you could tighten the straps by pulling on the string which is conveniently looped over the bar. I think I'm on to something here...



If you tied it off cleverly you could make them tighten and loosen as the pedals went round, allowing more movement for the foot not pushing downwards at the time. Just think how that would improve comfort!



NorrisCole said:


> Anyway, if your happy with flats, I'm happy with clipless, the important thing is we're all riding



Careful, you're saying things no-one's likely to disagree with and we can't have that at this stage on a thread like this one!


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## youngoldbloke (23 Feb 2011)

Davidc said:


> Proper cycling shoes for use with them also have a small ridge so that a definite rearward force is needed to pull the foot out of the clip, but I don't think you can get them any more. *They do not have cleats*, but do have a section of hard leather under the sole where they meet the pedal. Those shoes are actually worse to walk in than cleated ones - you just fall over they're so slippery.



Interesting site here - from Speedplay pedal museum My link History of clips and straps AND cleats - made from leather, metal and plastic. I used alloy ones, which were nailed to the sole using short tacks. I still have a pair of shoes with the ridged soles - in fact a number of parallel ridges to allow for different foot placement. These date from the mid 90s, and I use them now on the spinning bikes at the gym.


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## tyred (23 Feb 2011)

MacB said:


> It is precisely a sense of proportion that's being discussed, ask about most other bike parts and you'll get balanced responses. But pedals, and skinny tyres, seem to be in a world of their own. Everything will be so much better, you'll be faster and you'll enjoy your cycling much more, it's not a little difference it's like night and day. To be frank, as opposed to being Pussy Potsy's Patsy, I call bullshit on that, not the idea that there's a difference but that it is as marked, and as one sided, as claims make out. I also call bullshit on the idea that anyone not slurping the coolade is just doing it wrong.
> 
> Show me some real world data that supports these outrageous claims. Let me see the stats showing number of clipless moments versus number of injuries/deaths via clipless moments. Produce the evidence for the terrible dangers faced by feet slipping on flat pedals. Get some average cyclists and produce their stats with/without clipless pedals and with varying tyre sizes. Measure the size of their smiles after each ride to judge their happiness quotient.
> 
> ...


That's my take on it too.


I will continue to ride my steel frames (one of them hi-ten with chrome wheels, oh the shame!), complete with 32mm tyres pumped up to 70-80psi (never had a pinch flat) and leather saddles, friction shifters and flat pedals with or without toe clips because it works for me and I find it all very comfortable and suitable for the type of riding I do. I'm not competing in a race. Also, I'm not exactly rich and it helps keep the budget under control and I also take more pleasure from restoring old bikes than I ever will from riding. If I change or upgrade components, it's because I want to and not because it's the latest fashionable, must have accessory.


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## Davidc (23 Feb 2011)

youngoldbloke said:


> Interesting site here - from Speedplay pedal museum My link History of clips and straps AND cleats - made from leather, metal and plastic. I used alloy ones, which were nailed to the sole using short tacks. I still have a pair of shoes with the ridged soles - in fact a number of parallel ridges to allow for different foot placement. These date from the mid 90s, and I use them now on the spinning bikes at the gym.



I wouldn't disagree that cleats and their pedal attachments were around by the 90s. They were beginning to appear with some riders when I stopped doing TT and training around the mid 80s when my family were growing and taking my time away from cycling. I've had a quick look at your link, and saw some of the bolt-on ones which were around then. They fitted on the then current varieties of pedals, but the cleats needed shoes to be drilled to fit them. They'd been around for quite a few years by then. The early add-on cleats were lethal, they often jammed tight.

What I certainly never saw was anyone attempting to use toe clips and cleats simultaneously. I'd be intruiged to know how you'd do the twisting and lifting action for cleats while your foot was held firmly by clips and straps.

Back in those dark and distant days (early and mid 80s) the fastest riders I came across were certainly still using toe clips, and by then cycling shoes as you describe, with multiple ridges which also had rubber soles and didn't slide everywhere. I had a cheap pair with ridged soles all the way from the toe to insole. I gave my 1960s second hand and well worn Campagnolo leather shoes to a museum, but keep the memory of often falling over getting off the bike and/or walking to the loo. Those did only have one built in ridge, if you wanted more you could either get one put on at a shoe shop or fit a little metal thing to your pedal which adjusted to meet the one provided

I'll look with interest in more detail at your link later, I'll probably find all the pedally bits I've ever used.

I have a lnk to a picture of the 1960s campagnolo shoes but it doesn't want to work. I'll try and find the piccy and and get a current link


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## youngoldbloke (23 Feb 2011)

Perhaps some confusion here between Cleats and Shoe-Plates. Both names were used for the nail-on slotted plates used with toe clips and straps. If you scroll through the history of clips and straps there are a number of examples. (I am not referring to the (im)possible use of 'clipless' cleats with clips - I've never heard of this either). I was using nail on 'cleats' in the mid sixties. Most platform pedals had a raised rear edge that engaged with the slot (I used Lyotard platforms). So you had to loosen the strap to allow you to engage/disengage the cleat (shoeplate). The ridge in the sole of the shoe performed the same function as the cleat, albeit less positively. Admittedly you would not have been using shoeplates/cleats if you weren't a 'serious' cyclist!


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## Davidc (23 Feb 2011)

I'm prepared to accept that some, including you, may have fitted add ons to shoes which stopped your feet coming out from correctly adjusted clips and straps. It wasn't however the normal way of things. The two pros who I came across in the late 60s both used Campagnolo shoes, no other option for them, and always had their straps set up as I described above. They also had to use Campy pedals and clips.

Back in the 60s the kit used by pro riders was determined not by what they fancied using but by what their sponsors wanted used, or so they said. I have often wondered to what extent that has determined the development of cycle equipment, because I don't doubt that the same has applied since then. That kit would include not only clipless pedals but most of the rest of what we see on competitive cyclist's bikes. Anything which was detrimental would die out as no sponsor wants losers, but if something's neutral or marginal to performance but makes money for it's maker then who knows?

One way or another the type of kit used in competition trickles down, eventually to the BSO market, so there's a lot of money and many vested interests involved.


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## potsy (23 Feb 2011)

I was having terrible trouble clipping in today, every time I got to a set of lights my feet came off the pedal no problem but no matter how hard I pressed/twisted/stamped my foot the damn thing would just keep sliding off, absolutely no benefit whatsoever






Oh well I'll see how it goes tomorrow, don't like driving in 2 days running





PP.


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## youngoldbloke (23 Feb 2011)

Davidc said:


> *I'm prepared to accept that some, including you, may have fitted add ons to shoes which stopped your feet coming out from correctly adjusted clips and straps. It wasn't however the normal way of things.* The two pros who I came across in the late 60s both used Campagnolo shoes, no other option for them, and always had their straps set up as I described above. They also had to use Campy pedals and clips.
> 
> Back in the 60s the kit used by pro riders was determined not by what they fancied using but by what their sponsors wanted used, or so they said. I have often wondered to what extent that has determined the development of cycle equipment, because I don't doubt that the same has applied since then. That kit would include not only clipless pedals but most of the rest of what we see on competitive cyclist's bikes. Anything which was detrimental would die out as no sponsor wants losers, but if something's neutral or marginal to performance but makes money for it's maker then who knows?
> 
> One way or another the type of kit used in competition trickles down, eventually to the BSO market, so there's a lot of money and many vested interests involved.



We *ALL* used them! Lyotard platforms, Mafac brakes, Campag Gran Sport were the kit to use. By the club rider anyway. I wasn't a pro, but of course we tried to copy their kit and equipment! You wore your new, smooth, leather soled shoes until the raised ege of the pedal made a mark on the sole that you then used to position the slot of the plate before nailing it in position. If they were so abnormal how come a certain J Anquetil was putting his name to them in the early 70s? shoeplates


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## Rohloff_Brompton_Rider (23 Feb 2011)

is it still serious in here?.......






oh dear it is....i'm off.....


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## Dan B (23 Feb 2011)

MacB said:


> nope, I see rational responses on all other bike parts, generally along the lines of this is what you get, this is the payoff and the ultimate choice is yours. But suggest larger tyres or flat pedals and you get a whole load of old tosh washed down with a gallon of coolade.



Honestly, I think your confirmation bias is showing. There's plenty of balanced comments along with the clipless fanaticism: there's plenty of fanaticism along with the balanced comments on any other topic. Go on, start a thread about frame materials.


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## BrumJim (23 Feb 2011)

tyred said:


> For the ultimate belt and braces, why not bolt your shoes to the pedals. Be sure and use high tensile steel bolts of at least 1/2" diameter for added strength and security. Oh, and use castellated nuts and split pins just to make sure they don't come loose.



Not on my watch you don't. Bent beam/Philidas type or nothing. And make sure that you torque to 80% yield with a calibrated wrench, and witness mark. I'll be coming round to do an audit to check.


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## tyred (23 Feb 2011)

I've just had a fantastic idea. I'm going to see my GP to see if it's possible to drill a hole through my foot and bolt my complete foot down to the pedal. Surely, that would be the ultimate in foot retention systems?


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## Davidc (23 Feb 2011)

youngoldbloke said:


> We *ALL* used them! Lyotard platforms, Mafac brakes, Campag Gran Sport were the kit to use. By the club rider anyway. I wasn't a pro, but of course we tried to copy their kit and equipment! You wore your new, smooth, leather soled shoes until the raised ege of the pedal made a mark on the sole that you then used to position the slot of the plate before nailing it in position. If they were so abnormal how come a certain J Anquetil was putting his name to them in the early 70s? shoeplates


In the club scene I was in, which moved 3 times, various devices were used, but it was always possible to correctly set up clip and strap while using any location device. Those who wanted to were, by the mid 70s, experimenting with what we now call clipless.

My ever meeting with any pros ceased in 1970, so I don't know what they were doing with pedals after that. I don't know when the pros moved over to click (clipless) pedals.

If you couldn't slide your feet out of the clips backwards you weren't setting your straps and clips up properly, same goes for any of your clubmates. You should feel resistance on putting a foot in, and have to yank fairly hard to get it out, but you shouldn't normally need to readjust the straps during a ride.


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## threebikesmcginty (23 Feb 2011)

tyred said:


> I've just had a fantastic idea. I'm going to see my GP to see if it's possible to drill a hole through my foot and bolt my complete foot down to the pedal. Surely, that would be the ultimate in foot retention systems?



I'm a doctor* and I reckon that'll be fine, don't use the hammer-drill setting though. I would suggest a dog tooth washer between foot and pedal to stop any twisting.




*well I would be if I'd been to medical school and all that malarkey.


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## MacB (24 Feb 2011)

Dan B said:


> Honestly, I think your confirmation bias is showing. There's plenty of balanced comments along with the clipless fanaticism: there's plenty of fanaticism along with the balanced comments on any other topic. Go on, start a thread about frame materials.




and I honestly believe that you honestly believe that, and I'm fine with that......but I also genuinely believe that there is a lack of balance when it comes to talking about clipless pedal systems...though maybe not so much on CycleChat at the moment  I don't believe I'm close minded on the subject, I freely accept that there are benefits. I've also tried some and don't rule out using them again, if I feel the need arises, at some point in the future. In the same way I don't rule out skinnier tyres, I merely base my selection on what meets my current needs. 

But I have to agree there's something that rankles, you may call it confirmation bias, I don't see it that way....no surprise there then. It's hard to put my finger on exactly what rankles and I suspect it's more an accumulation of little things. Pick any clipless thread on the net and you'll see the same sort of comments from the advocates. To the cynic in me it reads more like marketing blurb than a balanced analysis, almost as if these threads get populated by spam bots. If I do have confirmation bias then that's it in action, reading between the lines to support it. But I get an overwhelming sense of, regardless of a cyclists specific needs, they're better off with clipless. I think that message is wrong and poorly delivered, not by everyone, I've seen some excellent summations from clipless users. They are just greatly outweighed by the gung ho brigade....IMESHO 

Oh, and the concept of falling off being funny will always strike a wrong note with me, I can't help that.


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## youngoldbloke (24 Feb 2011)

Quote from the pedal history Timeline: _"__4/1895 Charles Hanson of Peace Dale, Rhode Island invents first clipless pedal. (Twist to lock and unlock. Has rotational float.)."_ *116* years ago - and I expect there have been arguments between the pro and anti camps ever since. However it is interesting that cyclists have felt the need to attach their feet to their pedals more securely since at least 1868 - _"Clement Ader bike features primitive toe clip."_ - not long after the invention of pedals themselves, according to the website. Clipless are not a new innovation, just another way of making pedalling more efficient that had to wait until the 1980s for the technology to be freely available - Hinault winning the 1985 Tour on Look clipless pedals. 
(and I expect the discussion of their merits, or otherwise, will continue ....)


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## threebikesmcginty (24 Feb 2011)

This morning when I was wheeling my bike from the back of the house to the lane the serated edge on the flat pedal caught the knobbly bit on my ankle and it hurt.


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## youngoldbloke (24 Feb 2011)

threebikesmcginty said:


> This morning when I was wheeling my bike from the back of the house to the lane the serated edge on the flat pedal caught the knobbly bit on my ankle and it hurt.






- you need one of these.


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## youngoldbloke (24 Feb 2011)

Yes, maybe, but your ankles are safe!


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## Paulus (24 Feb 2011)

User13710 said:


> Aren't your toes a bit cold and vulnerable in one of those though?




The toes on the other foot would be a bit cold if you only wore one.


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## Norm (24 Feb 2011)

I had my first ride on the clipless bike for a few months today. I thoroughly enjoyed commuting on a road bike rather than the 20 year old MTB but I laughed my ass off at the first junction when I couldn't figure out why I couldn't move my feet. Luckily, I'd given myself enough space for me to look down and the brain to kick in, but that could have been "fun" (used ironically, just for MacB).

The thought of falling off because of a clipless moment frankly scares the pants off me. The first time it happens may well be the last as I'll probably junk the things.

I only tried them because someone on here was selling a second hand pair last June. I wouldn't pay new prices for something that I wasn't confident would work for me... and that price factor may well be the sort of "emperor's new clothes" that cause so many to rave about them which raises the hackles of the unclean non-believers. 

I've got bikes with flats, toe clips and clipless. I think that clipless are faster, they certainly were the one time I've done the two options on a measured route. However, whilst I like the extra security of having clips or clipless, I also dislike having to wear specific shoes for a pedal-system. 

I've ridden exclusively clipless for the past few months and the world continued turning. If my timed-comparison was right and there is a 5% difference between flats and clipless, what am I going to do with that time anyway? Saving 2-3 minutes on my commute isn't something that I'd notice. Reducing the time for my "just going for a ride" 10-miler doesn't show I've improved my level of fitness. Is that enough to offset the risk of falling off in the middle of a junction because of a clipless moment of non-concentration.

IMO, toe clips are a good compromise for most people on most bikes and for most uses but there's nothing wrong


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## tyred (24 Feb 2011)

Norm said:


> I had my first ride on the clipless bike for a few months today. I thoroughly enjoyed commuting on a road bike rather than the 20 year old MTB but I laughed my ass off at the first junction when I couldn't figure out why I couldn't move my feet. Luckily, I'd given myself enough space for me to look down and the brain to kick in, but that could have been "fun" (used ironically, just for MacB).
> 
> The thought of falling off because of a clipless moment frankly scares the pants off me. The first time it happens may well be the last as I'll probably junk the things.
> 
> ...


Norm, that reply is too sensible and balanced for this thread


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## youngoldbloke (24 Feb 2011)

Norm said:


> I only tried them because someone on here was selling a second hand pair last June. I wouldn't pay new prices for something that I wasn't confident would work for me... and that price factor may well be the sort of "emperor's new clothes" that cause so many to rave about them which raises the hackles of the unclean non-believers.



I don't really accept this - OK you _can_ buy flat pedals for 2.99 - but how good are they? A quick Google shows me you can get Wellgo SPD pedals for 18.95 - hardly enough for the 'emperors new clothes' factor surely? And that includes cleats too, remember. Toe clips and straps come at a price too, and reasonable ones won't be far shy of that price either - again you can get cheaper. Of course, you can pay £200 plus for carbon clipless pedals, but the same applies to top end flat ones too - eg _Burgtec Penthouse Flat Mk3 Ti_ from CRC for £184.99. Once you start getting serious about cycling you are going to be looking for appropriate shoes anyway, whatever sort of pedals you prefer. So - to sum up - not much in it really, moneywise.


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## Norm (24 Feb 2011)

Sorry but I'd rather get decent shoes and pedals second hand than get cheap shoes and pedals which wouldn't have allowed me a fair test of SPDs. Buy cheap, buy twice, if I was going to test them, I'd test a set which allowed me to figure out whether I liked the system rather than test how cheap you can get crappy bearings. 

My shoes would have been close to £100 new, the pedals £25 and, if I had paid £125, that _might have_ influenced my decision about them - would I have been happy junking something which was that expensive or would I have persuaded myself that they were marvellous. As it was, I got the lot for around 1/3 the price and they were, to my eye, unused so I could give them a fair test without any conscious or unconscious concerns about the price.

Your mileage may, of course, vary but I bet there are some who, having blown £100+, wouldn't want to admit they were unsure of the benefits.


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## Norm (24 Feb 2011)

tyred said:


> Norm, that reply is too sensible and balanced for this thread


It's ok, tyred, I've posted similar in a clipless thread in the past.


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## youngoldbloke (24 Feb 2011)

Norm said:


> Sorry but I'd rather get decent shoes and pedals second hand than get cheap shoes and pedals which wouldn't have allowed me a fair test of SPDs. Buy cheap, buy twice, if I was going to test them, I'd test a set which allowed me to figure out whether I liked the system rather than test how cheap you can get crappy bearings.
> 
> My shoes would have been close to £100 new, the pedals £25 and, if I had paid £125, that _might have_ influenced my decision about them - would I have been happy junking something which was that expensive or would I have persuaded myself that they were marvellous. As it was, I got the lot for around 1/3 the price and they were, to my eye, unused so I could give them a fair test without any conscious or unconscious concerns about the price.
> 
> Your mileage may, of course, vary but I bet there are some who, having blown £100+, wouldn't want to admit they were unsure of the benefits.



I paid a lot lot less than that for very good, comfortable, Shimano shoes, but more than £25 for my Look Keos. In fact I have 2 pairs of that particular shoe now, and Keos on both bikes, so I am quite happy with my choice.
One could easily say the same about flat pedals _"if I had paid £125, that might have influenced my decision about them". _My point was that good flat pedals or good pedals with straps and clips are going to cost money anyway so the emperors new clothes argument does not apply to one any more than another. 
If you don't get on with clipless pedals thats fine by me - each to his own.


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## zizou (24 Feb 2011)

Regards the cost - my flat pedal / shoe combination cost more than my spd and spd-sl pedal /shoe combinations.

superstar ulta mags (£70) + 5-10 sam hills (£90) v shimano dx spd (£50) + shimano mp66 (£45) v shimano spd-sl 105 (£45) + specialized bg comp (£90) . 

All those are mid range, could have gone alot cheaper but alot more expensive too.

Also have a pair of wellgo flats (not sure the model they were about £20) that i use with normal trainers. Wouldnt fancy doing any off roading using them though nor go on a long ride but for about town, going down to the shops when i'm trying to take things a bit easier rather than end up a sweaty mess then they are ideal


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## Davidc (24 Feb 2011)

youngoldbloke said:


> I don't really accept this - OK you _can_ buy flat pedals for 2.99 - but how good are they? Toe clips and straps come at a price too,



You're quite right. Not getting back into why strap and clip works, a half decent set is about £150, and thats for a clapped out old fogie like me.

It doesn't matter what you're getting as pedals, clipless, clips, flat, or anything else, the most crucial part is the bearings and the quality of the spindle. if that's wrong the pedals will be uncomfortable and inefficient. Quality costs money. ALL of your muscle power has to go through the pedals to get to the wheels so they're as important as any other transmission component, wheel, spoke, tyre or bearing. (Or so we were taught at the club I belonged to 50 years ago and every club after that).


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## cycletron (25 Feb 2011)

Davidc said:


> You're quite right. Not getting back into why strap and clip works, a half decent set is about £150, and thats for a clapped out old fogie like me.
> 
> It doesn't matter what you're getting as pedals, clipless, clips, flat, or anything else, the most crucial part is the bearings and the quality of the spindle. if that's wrong the pedals will be uncomfortable and inefficient. *Quality costs money*. ALL of your muscle power has to go through the pedals to get to the wheels so they're as important as any other transmission component, wheel, spoke, tyre or bearing. (Or so we were taught at the club I belonged to 50 years ago and every club after that).


In general quality does cost money, but money does not necessarily buy quality, because quality means different things to different people. The latest, super-lightweight carbon-titanium pedal that costs £200 and lasts one season might be considered quality to a race enthusiast, but would be regarded with suspicion by a commuter or touring cyclist, who is looking for toughness and a proven track record of durability, which is commonly found for less than £50.


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## Cubist (25 Feb 2011)

Norm said:


> Your mileage may, of course, vary but I bet there are *some who, having blown £100+, wouldn't want to admit they were unsure of the benefits.*



Also don't forget, to bring in a bit of balance, there are some who tried clipless, got scared or hurt by a "moment" and now feel the need to post quasi-ironic threads which if you read them properly and want a counter -argument to the "gotta go clipless" gang rather than admit they lost the syntax of the immensely long sentence I started to type but realised was waffling and was struggling to punctuate properly, tend to show that they simply didn't want to state that they don't like clipless pedals because they realised that they would be ostracised by the fashionistas. 

How tightly should I do up the strap on my helmet?


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## MacB (25 Feb 2011)

Cubist said:


> How tightly should I do up the strap on my helmet?



just keep going til you pass out


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## Cubist (25 Feb 2011)

MacB said:


> just keep going til you pass out



but wouldn't that make me fall off my bike?


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## tyred (25 Feb 2011)

Cubist said:


> but wouldn't that make me fall off my bike?


You'll be fine. You have a helmet!


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## Norm (25 Feb 2011)

Cubist said:


> but wouldn't that make me fall off my bike?





tyred said:


> You'll be fine. You have a helmet!


Although you might break your ankle if you are clipped in at the time.


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## Cubist (25 Feb 2011)

Cubist said:


> but wouldn't that make me fall off my bike?


You may be onto something here. Take a piece of, (arguably) unnecessary equipment, use it in such a way as to increase the risk of accident or injury, and simply mitigate the effects by donning safety equipment. All you then need to do is to start an online discussion on the matter and the justification for the extra expense appears as if by magic. 

So. Forget the injury potential of bear traps/rattraps, razor sharp pinned flat pedals, or the potential leg injuries from clipless moments, and buy a pair of leg guards. That way you can use either pedal system safe in the knowledge that your shins and knees will be safe from either. 

Then we won't have anything to discuss and can get back onto hi-viz and lighting debates! 

By the way McB, I suspect you are sponsored by the purveyors of flat pedals, and are trying to steer us away from 20 quid wellgo PSD and 20 quid Lidl shoes towards the non-hyped and mis-marketed flat pedal:
http://www.hotlines-uk.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=43495


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## MacB (25 Feb 2011)

Cubist said:


> By the way McB, I suspect you are sponsored by the purveyors of flat pedals, and are trying to steer us away from 20 quid wellgo PSD and 20 quid Lidl shoes towards the non-hyped and mis-marketed flat pedal:
> http://www.hotlines-...x?ModelID=43495




   £150 for a pair of pedals, are you insane man? you've got to be looking in the sub £20 region to find mine


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## threebikesmcginty (25 Feb 2011)

MacB said:


> £150 for a pair of pedals...



Did you see the blurb though?

"We analyzed everything that was on the market and started with a clean slate to completely re-invent the pedal."

They are very clever though because despite all the design changes they managed to disguise them to look like...well...er...a normal pedal!


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## MacB (25 Feb 2011)

threebikesmcginty said:


> Did you see the blurb though?
> 
> "We analyzed everything that was on the market and started with a clean slate to completely re-invent the pedal."
> 
> They are very clever though because despite all the design changes they managed to disguise them to look like...well...er...a normal pedal!



 For some of the high end stuff the marketing blurb is indistinguishable from the stuff you see for cars or perfume. I know, but those are the two things advertised that strike me as the most bizzare in the way they're hyped....when I'm unlucky enough to actually have to see an ad. Even the kids assume any ad that they have no idea what it's for will either be a car or a perfume.


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## zigzag (25 Feb 2011)

i had my flat pedal moment on clipless m520 pedals. put on my trainers, cycled to the shop one mile away and back. am i accepted to an elite flat pedalists circle now?


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## MacB (25 Feb 2011)

zigzag said:


> i had my flat pedal moment on clipless m520 pedals. put on my trainers, cycled to the shop one mile away and back. am i accepted to an elite flat pedalists circle now?



Hmmm, I think you're still a bit of an inbetweener, shall we say temporary membership to see how you behave?


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## cycletron (25 Feb 2011)

MacB said:


> £150 for a pair of pedals, are you insane man? you've got to be looking in the sub £20 region to find mine


Zizou's total spend was £390. Probably needs to add more for replacement cleats.


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## Cubist (25 Feb 2011)

threebikesmcginty said:


> Did you see the blurb though?
> 
> "We analyzed everything that was on the market and started with a clean slate to completely re-invent the pedal."
> 
> They are very clever though because despite all the design changes they managed to disguise them to look like...well...er...a normal pedal!


You're missing the whole point, which is clearly one of ground clearance "the thinness of the pedals lowers your center of gravity for increased stability and better cornering, brings you closer to the axis of rotation for a more effective pedal stroke and increases your ground clearance so you are less likely to be obstructed by objects on the trail. ", 'cause 5mm higher and you'd get catapulted off the trail with every rock strike, wobble around unable to complete a whole rotation of the cranks, and fall over on corners. .


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## MacB (25 Feb 2011)

cycletron said:


> Zizou's total spend was £390. Probably needs to add more for replacement cleats.



Wow, there's some serious gouging going on and I don't think it has anything to do with pedals and shins.


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## jethro10 (25 Feb 2011)

I get sciatica, quite badly sometimes.
However I can always pedal a bike with it, without pain strangely....except clipless, as the upstroke introduces intolerable pain.

So looks like I'll have to stay being an uneducated peasant






Strange really that I can hardly walk to the bike sometimes, but can pedal OK. I did most of the C2C last year with sciatica. Didn't dare got off for the hills to push!

Jeff


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