# Who needs carbon frames?



## gavroche (31 Jan 2018)

In 1956 Jacques Anquetil decided to beat the 13 year old hour world record held by Fausto Coppi. The bike he rode weighed only 6 kilos and made of three tenths steel, 110 grammes silk tubular and helium filled. He had 28 spokes on each wheel. He established a new world record of 46.159 kms, a whole lap faster than Coppi. That was 62 years ago!! No carbon frames in those days but still able to do a great performance. So, is carbon overrated then?


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## Spiderweb (31 Jan 2018)

He may have beat coppi’s record by several laps if he was riding a carbon aero frame.


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## sight-pin (31 Jan 2018)

gavroche said:


> The bike he rode weighed only 6 kilos and made of three tenths steel, 110 grammes silk tubular and helium filled. He had 28 spokes on each wheel



Think that frame would cost a fortune now days. Wonder what would it be like if the tires were filled with helium instead of air?


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## deptfordmarmoset (31 Jan 2018)

sight-pin said:


> Wonder what would it be like if the tires were filled with helium instead of air?


You could try nitrous oxide for a laugh.


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## biggs682 (31 Jan 2018)

gavroche said:


> In 1956 Jacques Anquetil decided to beat the 13 year old hour world record held by Fausto Coppi. The bike he rode weighed only 6 kilos and made of three tenths steel, 110 grammes silk tubular and helium filled. He had 28 spokes on each wheel. He established a new world record of 46.159 kms, a whole lap faster than Coppi. That was 62 years ago!! No carbon frames in those days but still able to do a great performance. So, is carbon overrated then?



Both of my parents competed in time trials in and around Coventry in the late fifties 

And even with the advancements in cycling since then i still cant get near to the times they did then ie Mum claims a sub 29 minute 10 mile and dad claims an all time best of just over 26 minutes for same distance 

So hats off to the guys & girls who competed in the good old days and it makes you wonder how quick they would have been on today's bikes be them carbon or steel


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## Cycleops (31 Jan 2018)

sight-pin said:


> Wonder what would it be like if the tires were filled with helium instead of air?


Probably give Mary Poppins a run for her money.


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## screenman (31 Jan 2018)

biggs682 said:


> Both of my parents competed in time trials in and around Coventry in the late fifties
> 
> And even with the advancements in cycling since then i still cant get near to the times they did then ie Mum claims a sub 29 minute 10 mile and dad claims an all time best of just over 26 minutes for same distance
> 
> So hats off to the guys & girls who competed in the good old days and it makes you wonder how quick they would have been on today's bikes be them carbon or steel




1 minutes 27 seconds, if they had things like the internet to take up their time and distract them they might have been slower.

Most clubs I know of run at least one retro tt each year, the times are slower than full blown modern tt bikes.


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## User33236 (31 Jan 2018)

biggs682 said:


> Both of my parents competed in time trials in and around Coventry in the late fifties
> 
> And even with the advancements in cycling since then i still cant get near to the times they did then ie Mum claims a sub 29 minute 10 mile and *dad claims an all time best of just over 26 minutes for same distance *
> 
> So hats off to the guys & girls who competed in the good old days and it makes you wonder how quick they would have been on today's bikes be them carbon or steel


Then I suggest you get out and train more and try harder


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## biggs682 (31 Jan 2018)

screenman said:


> Most clubs I know of run at least one retro tt each year, the times are slower than full blown modern tt bikes.



Must admit i keep thinking about doing a couple on some of my retro steelies


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## screenman (31 Jan 2018)

User33236 said:


> Then I suggest you get out and train more and try harder



I did think about saying that


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## Pumpkin the robot (31 Jan 2018)

gavroche said:


> In 1956 Jacques Anquetil decided to beat the 13 year old hour world record held by Fausto Coppi. The bike he rode weighed only 6 kilos and made of three tenths steel, 110 grammes silk tubular and helium filled. He had 28 spokes on each wheel. He established a new world record of 46.159 kms, a whole lap faster than Coppi. That was 62 years ago!! No carbon frames in those days but still able to do a great performance. So, is carbon overrated then?



In 2000 Chris Boardman used a carbon fibre frame with drop bars to do 49.441km beating Jacques Anquetil record by 3.282km. He even beat Eddie Merckx (on a steel frame) hour record by a mere 0.01km! 
Boardman also set a record of 56.375km on a carbon bike, with carbon wheels, but in the superman position (which is now classed as a different record) 
So in answer to your question, it seems carbon framed bikes are certainly faster than steel ones, although whether they are overrated is a question only the poeple riding either frame can decide for themselves.


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## Sharky (1 Feb 2018)

gavroche said:


> In 1956 Jacques Anquetil decided to beat the 13 year old hour world record held by Fausto Coppi. The bike he rode weighed only 6 kilos and made of three tenths steel, 110 grammes silk tubular and helium filled. He had 28 spokes on each wheel. He established a new world record of 46.159 kms, a whole lap faster than Coppi. That was 62 years ago!! No carbon frames in those days but still able to do a great performance. So, is carbon overrated then?



Seem to recall that In 1967, 11 years later, Anquetil again broke the hour record, with 47.493 km, but the record was disallowed because he refused to take the newly introduced post-race doping test. Maybe the 1956 ride was not such a great performance after all.


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## raleighnut (1 Feb 2018)

It'd be better if Carbon bikes didn't melt in the rain though.


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## Milzy (1 Feb 2018)

They’re certainly not over rated but every material has its place.


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## Shortandcrisp (3 Feb 2018)

screenman said:


> 1 minutes 27 seconds, if they had things like the internet to take up their time and distract them they might have been slower.
> 
> Most clubs I know of run at least one retro tt each year, the times are slower than full blown modern tt bikes.



Isn’t that mostly due to the position on the bike and not the bike material?


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## screenman (3 Feb 2018)

Shortandcrisp said:


> Isn’t that mostly due to the position on the bike and not the bike material?



Yep.


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## Cuchilo (15 Feb 2018)

There are all types of TT bikes at the opens i attend . Not everyone like carbon and its not in the rules to use it .


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## FishFright (15 Feb 2018)

Cuchilo said:


> There are all types of TT bikes at the opens i attend . Not everyone like carbon and its not in the rules to use it .



Some people just prefer that other people didn't ride carbon bikes because non-reasons I suppose.


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## CyclingSciency (21 Feb 2018)

gavroche said:


> 110 grammes silk tubular and helium filled


This is the earliest use of helium to inflate bicycle tyres that I’ve heard of. Please could you let me know where you found the info?


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## gavroche (21 Feb 2018)

CyclingSciency said:


> This is the earliest use of helium to inflate bicycle tyres that I’ve heard of. Please could you let me know where you found the info?


In the book called : " Anquetil alone" by Paul Fournel, page 26.


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## frank9755 (22 Feb 2018)

If you put out enough power you could take the record on a Raleigh Chopper! 

But the more aerodynamic your setup (90% rider position, 10% bike) then you can go faster with the finite power your legs can produce. 

TT times have have come down dramatically in recent years as aeroz have improved and people are getting faster times in their 60s than they were able to in their 20s. It's hard to see the rate of improvement continuing, but we don't know what the future holds.


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## greenmark (22 Feb 2018)

gavroche said:


> The bike he rode weighed only 6 kilos and made of three tenths steel



Only 6 Kilos? 
Maybe if his bike was weighed down to the current UCI minimum weight he wouldn't have done so well.
Also, what is the other seven tenths of the bike made out of? Balsa wood?


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## gavroche (22 Feb 2018)

If Anquetil was of today's cyclist generation, using today's equipment , he would still be unbeatable on a TT.


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## frank9755 (22 Feb 2018)

Today's drug rules might be a problem though!


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## GuyBoden (27 Mar 2018)

My late Uncle, Alan Boden, still holds the local 103 mile Warrington to Shrewsbury and back record, I can't see his record being beaten until the roads are cleared of cars. He then later attained three bronze National TT results in different years.


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## si_c (27 Mar 2018)

GuyBoden said:


> My late Uncle, Alan Boden still holds the local 103 mile Warrington to Shrewsbury and back record, I can't see his record being beaten until the roads are cleared of cars. He then later attained three bronze National TT results in different years.
> View attachment 401730


That's a crazy fast time, ~23mph average! I think I'm doing well if I do a 100km in that sort of time!!!


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## Milzy (29 Mar 2018)

I’ve seen a few walking up hills with their carbon bikes. What a waste of stiffness, lightness and money.


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## gds58 (29 Mar 2018)

Milzy said:


> I’ve seen a few walking up hills with their carbon bikes. What a waste of stiffness, lightness and money.


Not really! Which would you rather carry up a hill you couldn't ride up - A nice lightweight carbon bike or a heavy steel or aluminium one!! I would aslo argue that on a heavy bike they'd be walking up a lot more hills!!!


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## Milzy (29 Mar 2018)

gds58 said:


> Not really! Which would you rather carry up a hill you couldn't ride up - A nice lightweight carbon bike or a heavy steel or aluminium one!! I would aslo argue that on a heavy bike they'd be walking up a lot more hills!!!


Fair point.


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## DCLane (29 Mar 2018)

biggs682 said:


> Both of my parents competed in time trials in and around Coventry in the late fifties
> 
> And even with the advancements in cycling since then i still cant get near to the times they did then ie Mum claims a sub 29 minute 10 mile and dad claims an all time best of just over 26 minutes for same distance



@biggs682 - you need to borrow my aluminium Principia TT bike which now has a disc wheel: I got 25 minutes on a hilly 10 mile TT

Mind you, I'm on the same course next month against my 13yo and I'm expecting him to  me





DCLane said:


> View attachment 310599


​


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## biggs682 (29 Mar 2018)

DCLane said:


> @biggs682 - you need to borrow my aluminium Principia TT bike which now has a disc wheel: I got 25 minutes on a hilly 10 mile TT
> 
> Mind you, I'm on the same course next month against my 13yo and I'm expecting him to  me
> 
> ...



@DCLane i am awaiting a still day weather wise to have a go (unofficially ) on one of the local 10 mile courses on my all singing & dancing Viner Maxima rs4.0 to try and better the time i did last year which i think was just over 32 mins


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## Hugh Manatee (2 Apr 2018)

@biggs682 or @DCLane you could borrow mine if you want to go TT retro!


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## biggs682 (2 Apr 2018)

Hugh Manatee said:


> @biggs682 or @DCLane you could borrow mine if you want to go TT retro!
> 
> View attachment 402770


 wow that is gorgeous


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## Ming the Merciless (3 Apr 2018)

Weaker riders need carbon frames so they can keep up.


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## FishFright (3 Apr 2018)

How many on here need a bike at all ? I mean need and not want one to exercise on etc. We've seen how middle class this forum considers itself to be so the reason most rides bikes probably isn't necessity or poverty.


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## raleighnut (3 Apr 2018)

FishFright said:


> How many on here need a bike at all ? I mean need and not want one to exercise on etc. We've seen how middle class this forum considers itself to be so the reason most rides bikes probably isn't necessity or poverty.


I have no other transport (through choice) and neither does Maz and we're far from poor.


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## FishFright (3 Apr 2018)

raleighnut said:


> I have no other transport (through choice) and neither does Maz and we're far from poor.



So not need so my point stands , even though I have no other transport either - again though choice . Although now I'm on ESA I am relatively poor now.


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## raleighnut (3 Apr 2018)

FishFright said:


> So not need so my point stands , even though I have no other transport either - again though choice . Although now I'm on ESA I am relatively poor now.


Well if I want to get anywhere I 'need' my bike.


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## barr313 (1 Jan 2019)

I found a web site a while ago ( did not bookmark it ) so never found it again.
It gave the advanteges in time saved for various aero developements in cycle racing on recent years.
This was in seconds per mile and really showed how things ike aero bars, skin suits etc have made for quicker times.

As an aside I wonder what sort of distance Alf Engers would have done if he had ever gone for the hour record.


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## Milzy (1 Jan 2019)

I would have a Cannondale CAAD 12. Lovely Alu frame that’s light, stiff, strong, aero & affordable.


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## IanSmithCSE (2 Jan 2019)

Good morning.



barr313 said:


> ....As an aside I wonder what sort of distance Alf Engers would have done if he had ever gone for the hour record.



Didn't Alf Enger, Eddie Atkins etc ride in an era of aero advantages that are no longer available?

If my memory server me well there were a couple of courses where amny records were set, they were dual carriage ways and the TTs took place during rush hour to benefit from being sucked along by HGVs. 

I need to find some reason to explain why he is 10mph faster then me!

Bye

Ian


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## Zipp2001 (28 Jan 2019)

Hey I'm into my old school carbon TT bike (26 years old that is).


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## Smokin Joe (3 Feb 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> Weaker riders need carbon frames so they can keep up.


That's a good advert for carbon.


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