# Bassons implying Wiggins/Froome are dopers?



## Hont (15 Feb 2013)

That's what it reads like to me...

"In the peloton, it’s still going pretty quickly [smiles knowingly]. You don’t need muscles to go fast, apparently. That’s what we saw this year."

The rest is interesting thoughtful stuff...

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/christophe-bassons-where-the-war-on-drugs-is-going-wrong


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## oldfatfool (15 Feb 2013)

It's like anything else, ten years ago smoking in pubs was legal, if Wggins et al have been legally enhancing their performance, the method they have used may not be legal in future when the UCI find out about it and ban it. That is clearly what he is saying, "Beyond that, I’ve never made a distinction between doping and doping behaviour that’s not forbidden but most people do make that distinction. They’ll go right to the line"


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## Crackle (15 Feb 2013)

Hont said:


> That's what it reads like to me...
> 
> "In the peloton, it’s still going pretty quickly [smiles knowingly]. You don’t need muscles to go fast, apparently. That’s what we saw this year."
> 
> ...


I'm not sure he's all that thoughtful and I don't see how that quote from him chimes with his poster campaign, which says,

‘Sometimes it’s hard to get rid of a label’.


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## deptfordmarmoset (15 Feb 2013)

I get the impression there's a fairly widespread suspicion about British cyclists using AICAR in France.


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## rich p (15 Feb 2013)

oldfatfool said:


> It's like anything else, ten years ago smoking in pubs was legal, if Wggins et al have been legally enhancing their performance, the method they have used may not be legal in future when the UCI find out about it and ban it. That is clearly what he is saying, "Beyond that, I’ve never made a distinction between doping and doping behaviour that’s not forbidden but most people do make that distinction. They’ll go right to the line"


 What method are you saying they may have used?


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## oldfatfool (15 Feb 2013)

rich p said:


> What method are you saying they may have used?


 
I aint, no idea wether they are or not. BUT that is what Bassons would appear to be implying no?

In all sports be it Formula 1 or tiddly winks, people/teams will spend a fortune to find an 'edge' over the competition, a loop hole in the rules no one else as found etc. Once the loop hole is discovered then it is only a matter of time before it is banned for future use. No doubt a few years ago most of the 'enhancers' that are now are classed as doping would have been legal in that they had not been discovered and legislated against.


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## Andrew_P (15 Feb 2013)

It is all about marginal gains!


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## Strathlubnaig (15 Feb 2013)

My money is on Telmisartan


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## BJH (15 Feb 2013)

I am not actually sure exactly what the point is that he is making here. So far there is nothing to suggest that Wiggins should have any fingers pointed at him, he has always had a strong anti doping stance unlike most of the proven cheats.

Is this part of the French comments about the GB track team - your winning so you must be up to something.

I would prefer to see insider like him, who will have awareness of what types of PED's are likely to be out there ask specific questions of teams and individuals on whether they use them and exactly what products they do use.

Could all teams not be forced to state all products used by the team, on the basis that the use of anything not previously notified to the UCI would result in a ban if subsequently found during testing? It could possibly lift the lid on this potential use before it makes it on to the banned list ??


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## Crackle (15 Feb 2013)

oldfatfool said:


> It's like anything else, ten years ago smoking in pubs was legal, if Wggins et al have been legally enhancing their performance, the method they have used may not be legal in future when the UCI find out about it and ban it. That is clearly what he is saying, "Beyond that, I’ve never made a distinction between doping and doping behaviour that’s not forbidden but most people do make that distinction. They’ll go right to the line"


 
See that statement you've quoted there, is something, like the rest of the interview, I can't quite work out. I'm torn between, really profound or a wild west facade and when you look behind it, there's nothing there. I dont really know what to make of it yet.


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## deptfordmarmoset (15 Feb 2013)

Strathlubnaig said:


> My money is on Telmisartan


Thanks for the link but I hope you're wrong!


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## 400bhp (15 Feb 2013)

This is where we are with pro cycling.


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## Strathlubnaig (15 Feb 2013)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> Thanks for the link but I hope you're wrong!


I would imagine I am, I have been wrong before. Would not be difficult to find someone is using this though.


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## gavintc (15 Feb 2013)

Personally, I have gone beyond blind faith. But, I would be disappointed (not for first time).


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## Flying_Monkey (15 Feb 2013)

I think what he is saying is that Sky et al are using training techniques (and probably throwing money at stuff) that constitute everything but actual doping, i.e. against the spirit of the sport rather than actually breaking the rules.


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## Strathlubnaig (15 Feb 2013)

Flying_Monkey said:


> I think what he is saying is that Sky et al are using training techniques (and probably throwing money at stuff) that constitute everything but actual doping, i.e. against the spirit of the sport rather than actually breaking the rules.


A bit like Starbucks and UK tax then


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## ayceejay (15 Feb 2013)

I have read here on this forum that the way to improve your performance on the bike is to ride your bike. Clearly at a professional level this is not enough. All sports have improved over the years due to more scientific training methods as well as changes in equipment, dietary supplements and so on (use the presently disgraced 'blade runner' as an example. Gaining a legitimate edge over and above an athletes natural talent is an ongoing process, yet "an athletes natural talent" is a difficult one for one without it to get their head around.


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## Flying_Monkey (15 Feb 2013)

Strathlubnaig said:


> A bit like Starbucks and UK tax then


 
Exactly - it's why he specifically talks about cheating rather than doping.


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## rich p (16 Feb 2013)

Yes, but what is he inferring? It sounds like ill-informed mud-slinging to me. AICAR is on the banned list - so it isn't that.
If it isn't on the list then it's not sailing close to the wind, it's legal. It either is or it isn't.
FWIW, everything I've heard and read from Sky and Wiggins is that they take nothing, zilch, nada. I'm willing to be persuaded otherwise but saying they must be doping because they're winning just doesn't cut it for me.


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## Hont (16 Feb 2013)

Jonathan Vaughters has responded to the muscle comment...

_34 lbs/ft torque [450 Watts at 95 rpm with 175 cranks] does not require big muscles.It requires aerobic efficiency._

He presumably thinks Bassons was referring (at least in part) to Ryder Hesjedal.


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## Crackle (16 Feb 2013)

I've read the interview a couple of times now and there are aspects I like, plus it's Bassons, a man who, at the very least, deserves respect but I can't help feeling some of it is unachievable, almost naive. If I had to condense it, I would say that what he's saying is, it's not the winning, it's the taking part.

He says "You only talk about who won, never about anything to do with values." In fact I don't think this is true. Whoever wins has their values examined deeply. We hold the winners values in high esteem, this is the very reason for the huge outrage against doping in cycling, we need to believe in our winners.

Then he says "The media can’t and shouldn’t say that a guy is doping because he’s producing a certain number of watts. That’s not your role." Isn't it. Without people like Walsh and Kimmage would we know now what we know. He goes on to qualify it but I think he's being a bit prescriptive.

When he talks about sponsors and values "then sponsors who want to project those same values for their company will also come onboard" he seems to be missing that the sponsors already project those values. They extrapolate them from whoever they sponsor and that's what gets bound to their product.

I still don't disagree with what he's saying but it seems to be the interview of an idealist rather than a realist. I'm open to persuasion otherwise.


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## thom (16 Feb 2013)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Exactly - it's why he specifically talks about cheating rather than doping.


As such, it's vaguely xenophobic - does he have a history of talking about the the successes of Spanish riders ?


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## Hotblack Desiato (16 Feb 2013)

Flying_Monkey said:


> I think what he is saying is that Sky et al are using training techniques (and probably throwing money at stuff) that constitute everything but actual doping, i.e. against the spirit of the sport rather than actually breaking the rules.


 
..or maybe bodyline bowling? A win-at-all-costs tactic that was not illegal but was certainly unsporting by the standards of the day. Now umpires can decide that bowling is too aggressive and censure the bowler. Nevertheless, cricket was changed forever after or by the bodyline series. 



Crackle said:


> I've read the interview a couple of times now and there are aspects I like, plus it's Bassons, a man who, at the very least, deserves respect but I can't help feeling some of it is unachievable, almost naive. If I had to condense it, I would say that what he's saying is, it's not the winning, it's the taking part...
> 
> ..I still don't disagree with what he's saying but it seems to be the interview of an idealist rather than a realist. I'm open to persuasion otherwise.


 
I'd concur with your interpretation. And in the context of Anglo-saxon values he is perhaps naive. However 'Oranges', as they say 'are not the only fruit'.


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## Flying_Monkey (16 Feb 2013)

Hotblack Desiato said:


> I'd concur with your interpretation. And in the context of Anglo-saxon values he is perhaps naive. However 'Oranges', as they say 'are not the only fruit'.


 
He's a lesbian too?


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## Hotblack Desiato (16 Feb 2013)

Flying_Monkey said:


> He's a lesbian too?


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## montage (17 Feb 2013)

If Sky were doing something dodgy, don't you think Leinders et al would be shouting about something?


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## Hotblack Desiato (17 Feb 2013)

The plain truth is that there is only ever one winner in the tour de France. The clue is in the name. Contestants who podium simply stand there like lemons, the finger of suspicion hanging over their heads like a poisoned chalice, the wax melting on their wings.


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## oldroadman (17 Feb 2013)

The comment about "big muscles" is plain silly. In road racing aerobic efficiency is what it's about. A big engine is required. This is partially genetic, partially conditioning. As an example, Sky, quite correctly, use every modern available training and equipment advantage - BUT THE RIDERS STILL CLIMB SLOWER THAN IN THE EPO DAYS. Does that tell you something?
Fact, after losing the sprint title to Mr Kenny, a losing French rider all but said at a press conference, "you beat me, what are you on?". Said rider just back in time from a doping suspension!
Fact, French team management at the OGs were putting around that GB had specal equipment "magic wheels". Probably rounder than anyone else's. Rubbish. Or simply Mavic - they are the brand of track wheels GBCT uses, and they take very good care to ensure they are clean (hence the bags) and perfect, along with tubulars. Oh, and having one of the best team mechanic groups in the world helps.
What to conclude? Jealous losers will tend to complain and seek to blame anything other than looking at any faulst of their own which may have been the cause. Especially when French.
Mr Bassons seems a nice enough guy, and I respect his stand on the doping issue, but he seems a bit naive, and stretching his credibility when hinting at things about which he has little or no knowledge.


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## Crankarm (17 Feb 2013)

oldroadman said:


> The comment about "big muscles" is plain silly. In road racing aerobic efficiency is what it's about. A big engine is required. This is partially genetic, partially conditioning. As an example, Sky, quite correctly, use every modern available training and equipment advantage - BUT THE RIDERS STILL CLIMB SLOWER THAN IN THE EPO DAYS. Does that tell you something?
> Fact, after losing the sprint title to Mr Kenny, a losing French rider all but said at a press conference, "you beat me, what are you on?". Said rider just back in time from a doping suspension!
> Fact, French team management at the OGs were putting around that GB had specal equipment "magic wheels". Probably rounder than anyone else's. Rubbish. Or simply Mavic - they are the brand of track wheels GBCT uses, and they take very good care to ensure they are clean (hence the bags) and perfect, along with tubulars. Oh, and having one of the best team mechanic groups in the world helps.
> What to conclude? Jealous losers will tend to complain and seek to blame anything other than looking at any faulst of their own which may have been the cause. Especially when French.
> Mr Bassons seems a nice enough guy, and I respect his stand on the doping issue, but he seems a bit naive, and stretching his credibility when hinting at things about which he has little or no knowledge.


 

More like sour grapes and a sore runner up.


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## deptfordmarmoset (17 Feb 2013)

oldroadman said:


> The comment about "big muscles" is plain silly. In road racing aerobic efficiency is what it's about. A big engine is required. This is partially genetic, partially conditioning. As an example, Sky, quite correctly, use every modern available training and equipment advantage - BUT THE RIDERS STILL CLIMB SLOWER THAN IN THE EPO DAYS. Does that tell you something?
> Fact, after losing the sprint title to Mr Kenny, a losing French rider all but said at a press conference, "you beat me, what are you on?". Said rider just back in time from a doping suspension!
> Fact, French team management at the OGs were putting around that GB had specal equipment "magic wheels". Probably rounder than anyone else's. Rubbish. Or simply Mavic - they are the brand of track wheels GBCT uses, and they take very good care to ensure they are clean (hence the bags) and perfect, along with tubulars. Oh, and having one of the best team mechanic groups in the world helps.
> What to conclude? Jealous losers will tend to complain and seek to blame anything other than looking at any faulst of their own which may have been the cause. Especially when French.
> Mr Bassons seems a nice enough guy, and I respect his stand on the doping issue, but he seems a bit naive, and stretching his credibility when hinting at things about which he has little or no knowledge.


Oh yes, Baugé if I remember rightly. Missed 3 availability tests and then came away with a silver with a clear ''I'm a winner, I didn't win, therefore you cheated'' approach to coming second. Actually, I'm not sure there was a reference to magic wheels, the phrase was how the UK press parodied her suspicions about BC keeping their wheels under wraps until the last minute. (To stop the alcohol treatment from evaporating???)


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## oldroadman (17 Feb 2013)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> Oh yes, Baugé if I remember rightly. Missed 3 availability tests and then came away with a silver with a clear ''I'm a winner, I didn't win, therefore you cheated'' approach to coming second. Actually, I'm not sure there was a reference to magic wheels, the phrase was how the UK press parodied her suspicions about BC keeping their wheels under wraps until the last minute. (To stop the alcohol treatment from evaporating???)


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## oldroadman (17 Feb 2013)

Ah no, the alcohol treatment was for non-team members, it was called celebrating! But seriously, why not take every legal advantage, great kit, staff, riders, and a sackful of medals. Others will catch up eventually, and so the need to improve goes on. Nobody seemed to worry when French, Aussies, etc., were winning loads, but Brits are supposed to be good losers, not go nicking all the silverware!


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## albion (17 Feb 2013)

Flying_Monkey said:


> ...i.e. against the spirit of the sport



And obviously they should all be amateur only which historically excludes most of those not born into money.


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## ufkacbln (17 Feb 2013)

It has always been the case that drugs will be ahead of the authorities at some point, and legal until they become banned. Look at the lists of the separate countries and how they disagreed before a single list was achieved and recognised.

The question raised above about the "spirit" reflects this.

If someone is willing to pump a drug into their body to gain an advantage, it is only a small bridge to cross before using an illegal one!

The other question though is if a drug is "legal" and hence acceptable at this stage, do those riders acievements become tarnished and invalid if that drug later becomes illegal


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## JayBear (18 Feb 2013)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> Oh yes, Baugé if I remember rightly. Missed 3 availability tests and then came away with a silver with a clear ''I'm a winner, I didn't win, therefore you cheated'' approach to coming second. Actually, I'm not sure there was a reference to magic wheels, the phrase was how the UK press parodied her suspicions about BC keeping their wheels under wraps until the last minute. (To stop the alcohol treatment from evaporating???)


 
I seem to remember a fantastic interview with Chris Boardman during or just after the games when the question of the magic wheels was being discussed. The question was something along the lines of 'What do you say to the accusations from the French team that you have secret magic wheels?'

The answer was a look of a mischevious grin and the wonderful answer of something along the lines of "I think it's a bit odd really, we just buy the best wheels we can get hold of... we got the current ones from a company in France."


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## Hotblack Desiato (20 Feb 2013)

JayBear said:


> I seem to remember a fantastic interview with Chris Boardman during or just after the games when the question of the magic wheels was being discussed. The question was something along the lines of 'What do you say to the accusations from the French team that you have secret magic wheels?'
> 
> The answer was a look of a mischevious grin and the wonderful answer of something along the lines of "I think it's a bit odd really, we just buy the best wheels we can get hold of... we got the current ones from a company in France."


 
I love the thought of being able to get 'magic' wheels but sadly, knowing my luck they'd just be 'Mavic' ones!


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## Monsieur Remings (24 Feb 2013)

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=aicar&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CEAQFjAC&url=http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/11395/Doping-AICAR-Telmisartan-and-the-need-for-vigilance.aspx&ei=bHMqUaieL5Cr0AWJm4HwAQ&usg=AFQjCNGu_t0rlOLoQMJyMapB0phfCRZEpQ

This is something I found regarding AICAR and also has piece about Telmisartan.


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## deptfordmarmoset (24 Feb 2013)

Monsieur Remings said:


> http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=aicar&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CEAQFjAC&url=http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/11395/Doping-AICAR-Telmisartan-and-the-need-for-vigilance.aspx&ei=bHMqUaieL5Cr0AWJm4HwAQ&usg=AFQjCNGu_t0rlOLoQMJyMapB0phfCRZEpQ
> 
> This is something I found regarding AICAR and also has piece about Telmisartan.


Yes, Strathlubnaig mentioned that article in post #8. What I find hard to judge is, if Telmisartan has similar properties to AICAR, is cheap and readily available and not banned, how many riders are using it.


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## Monsieur Remings (24 Feb 2013)

rich p said:


> Yes, but what is he inferring? It sounds like ill-informed mud-slinging to me. AICAR is on the banned list - so it isn't that.
> If it isn't on the list then it's not sailing close to the wind, it's legal. It either is or it isn't.
> FWIW, everything I've heard and read from Sky and Wiggins is that they take nothing, zilch, nada. I'm willing to be persuaded otherwise but saying they must be doping because they're winning just doesn't cut it for me.


 
Agreed. I wouldn't be surprised if there was some fallout from this speech as it could be construed that he is implying that the peloton is, once again, one step ahead of the anti-doping authorities. If this is what he means he might have to be more specific. He mentions not needing muscles anymore, or something along those lines, which has got to be a reference to the drugs in the article linked by Strathlubnaig, hasn't it? I read it definitely as some sort of substance misuse, whether legal or not at the moment.

If it's taken x amount of years for the whole truth to come out surrounding Armstrong then it would have to be concluded that eventually dopers will be caught? Surely the big players would be aware of this. FWIW I think Sky are clean so mudslinging it is, unless he can tone down the cryptics and spell out what he means...


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## Monsieur Remings (24 Feb 2013)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> Yes, Strathlubnaig mentioned that article in post #8. What I find hard to judge is, if Telmisartan has similar properties to AICAR, is cheap and readily available and not banned, how many riders are using it.


 
Yep, so he did.


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## montage (24 Feb 2013)

Anybody speak french and able to see what their forums say about team sky?


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## albion (24 Feb 2013)

Bassons took advantage of the current suspicious climate so knows he can't be easily sued.


Armstrong's legacy.


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## deptfordmarmoset (24 Feb 2013)

montage said:


> Anybody speak french and able to see what their forums say about team sky?


I speak French but I don't know of any decent forums. L'équipe's comments are always good for a taste of xenophobia though. Thin Brit wins - AICAR. Big Brit wins - Steroids. Pervis disqualified this week - Brits got to the commissionaire. Their keyboard warriors are worse than the Direly Mail equivalent.


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