# Brompton how light can it go



## jackthelad (11 Sep 2012)

I was reading about the titanium 2 speed brompton and it comes in at 9.6kg.I was wondering if this bike could go lighter with hand built wheels,carbon seat post etc,what are your view any appreciated


----------



## Flying Dodo (11 Sep 2012)

You could do all the above, which would certainly reduce the weight a bit. It would be fairly expensive though.

If you really wanted to go any lighter, you could try using helium for the tyres.


----------



## TheDoctor (11 Sep 2012)

It's getting tricky to find things to lose weight from, without compromising the bike beyond all usefullness.
I mean, would you really go single-speed to drop a hundred grams or so?
Shame no-one makes a carbon main frame...


----------



## Night Train (11 Sep 2012)

TheDoctor said:


> Shame no-one makes a carbon main frame...


Yet!

I am sure now you have said it someone will start thinking about how much a Brompton fan would pay for one.


----------



## TheDoctor (11 Sep 2012)

I'm starting to think about liberating some carbon pre-preg from work.
And an autoclave...


----------



## JC4LAB (12 Sep 2012)

Just as important is how light can you yourself become....as a 17stone Brompton user myself Ihave given up light bikes. Body weight would be much easier and cheaper to get off....Titanium oiptions would be more for strength than weight reduction in my case.. eg..as a heavier rider I find seat post stems can bend just a touch over time making them a tough fold.Steel ones are cheap to replace though at a fifth of the price of titaniuim)..


----------



## RecordAceFromNew (12 Sep 2012)

Given it is something you carry around with you imho the OP asked a fair question. Unfortunately having looked into it a little bit I think challenges are considerable. I am happy to be proved wrong though.

Lets take the seatpost, over 53cm of tube with the standard weighing about 400g. When you consider a typical light carbon post about half that length typically weighs about half that, it becomes obvious that lightening it is not going to be a very promising exercise - especially when bending moment at the clamp increases when doubling the length. Unsurprisingly perhaps that is why Brompton used to sell a Ti post. Also unsurprisingly a current 3rd party Ti post weighs about the same as the steel one despite costing 200 euros. To make matter worse, if you have long inseam like me and need the current telescopic post you will need to carry another 360g!

But the main reason why it is challenging is because so few components are consistent with modern standards where choice is plentiful. Certainly not the hubs, nor the brakes, nor the BB. If you want to get away from a heavy (unless very expensive) 119mm square tapered BB by changing the chainset at the same time, you will find it hard to get a chainset as light as the existing Stronglight 55.

Lighter saddle, tyres (e.g. Kojak) and tubes are probably the easiest avenues, if not taken already.


----------



## Red Light (12 Sep 2012)

A guy, Len Rubin from the US of A has developed the "Ultimate folding bicycle" a titanium framed Brompton with a target weight of half that of the standard Brompton. Rumour was at one time Brompton were going to make them but that seems to have evaporated. His website is www.ufbusa.com


----------



## TheDoctor (12 Sep 2012)

RecordAceFromNew said:


> Given it is something you carry around with you imho the OP asked a fair question. Unfortunately having looked into it a little bit I think challenges are considerable. I am happy to be proved wrong though.
> 
> Lets take the seatpost, over 53cm of tube with the standard weighing about 400g. When you consider a typical light carbon post about half that length typically weighs about half that, it becomes obvious that lightening it is not going to be a very promising exercise - especially when bending moment at the clamp increases by a factor of 8 when doubling the length. Unsurprisingly perhaps that is why Brompton used to sell a Ti post. Also unsurprisingly a current 3rd party Ti post weighs about the same as the steel one despite costing 200 euros. To make matter worse, if you have long inseam like me and need the current telescopic post you will need to carry another 360g!
> 
> ...


 
I agree, it's a fair question. I'm just stumped for an answer!!
Loving the idea of a Ti Brommie though.


----------



## Brommyboy (18 Sep 2012)

You can spend as much as you like on lightening the bike: try these for saving a 20 grams at about £30 -
http://www.brompfication.com/39-hinge-clamp-lever-bolts-titanium.html


----------



## mickle (18 Sep 2012)

One word; Steve Perry.


----------



## dellzeqq (18 Sep 2012)

that's two words


----------



## mickle (18 Sep 2012)

Good point.


----------



## jackthelad (3 Oct 2012)

guys I came back to this post as some guys have related to small items to save a few grams here and there.This is not what i was getting at but basically making the bike lighter.Has brompton looked into other materials like more titanium in the frame or selling the frame seperately so people can build the bike with hand built light wheels folding tyres etc.What do you think the limit weight would be on a brompton to make it for what it is intented for,(carrying)


----------



## Yellow Fang (3 Oct 2012)

I suspect none of Brompton's tubes are double butted, Actually, there are only basically three tunes that are worth double butting: the head tube, the main tube and the steerer. It has to be said Bromptons are heavy to lug about, especially from one station platform to another.


----------



## jackthelad (4 Oct 2012)

. It has to be said Bromptons are heavy to lug about, especially from one station platform to another.[/quote]

Yellow this is what I am getting at.If you where to tour using the brompton combining trains buses etc then the weight would become an issue.I lately picked one up and did not think it was that light to carry any distance.


----------



## Red Light (4 Oct 2012)

jackthelad said:


> . It has to be said Bromptons are heavy to lug about, especially from one station platform to another
> 
> Yellow this is what I am getting at.If you where to tour using the brompton combining trains buses etc then the weight would become an issue.I lately picked one up and did not think it was that light to carry any distance.


 
You don't need to carry it any distance. For shorter distances just pull the handlebars up (no need to clamp them) and pull it along on the rollers. For longer distances its so quick to unfold and fold you just do that at each end. The only place you need to carry it is up and down steps.


----------



## dellzeqq (4 Oct 2012)

isn't this a perception problem? You would think that a thing that folds so small wouldn't weigh much - but it's always going to be a heavier item than a 'normal' bike, and, yes, some of the components are out of date.

Brompton's success is founded on image and reliability. It's got a free pass on detailed design, which, although improving, is still poor - who, these days, thinks that one should have to use a spanner, or two spanners to tighten something? Some of the third party kit is naff - I spent £70 on a rear rack bag that doesn't secure properly.

I can carry mine without to much difficulty, but AH can't carry hers more than a few yards. Forget pulling it along on those little wheels on city footpaths, it just falls over. If they could shave 750g of that would make a heck of a difference to the portability.


----------



## Red Light (4 Oct 2012)

dellzeqq said:


> isn't this a perception problem? You would think that a thing that folds so small wouldn't weigh much - but it's always going to be a heavier item than a 'normal' bike, and, yes, some of the components are out of date.
> 
> Brompton's success is founded on image and reliability. It's got a free pass on detailed design, which, although improving, is still poor - who, these days, thinks that one should have to use a spanner, or two spanners to tighten something? Some of the third party kit is naff - I spent £70 on a rear rack bag that doesn't secure properly.
> 
> I can carry mine without to much difficulty, but AH can't carry hers more than a few yards. Forget pulling it along on those little wheels on city footpaths, it just falls over. If they could shave 750g of that would make a heck of a difference to the portability.


 
I'm trying to think which bit requires two spanners to tighten it. As for one spanner then most city bikes have things like the wheels held on by nuts, not QRs for anti-theft security. Now in principle you should take the Brommie inside with you (I always do) but some of them get locked up out on the street.


----------



## Bromptonaut (11 Oct 2012)

You could probably shave a bit off by incremental gains but I doubt it'd make much difference.

The only place I carry mine folded is from office door to desk. The fold/unfold is so quick and the bike so easily guided with just a hand on the saddle that even changing trains I'd unfold for anything more than a cross platform change. Going up and down station stairs is easier unfolded with saddle nose resting on right shoulder then struggling with folded bike in one hand and pannier in other. Also easier to navigate platform barriers pushing with one hand still free to reach for and show ticket.


----------



## jackthelad (16 Oct 2012)

Hi guys thanks for all the replies highly appreciated.I would love to do lands end to John O groats using a brompton and buses trains and ferrys , this is why I am asking how light.


----------



## Mr Haematocrit (16 Oct 2012)

Grab yourself a NeoBike which is made in the far east using Brompton tooling, but its made from a lighter alloy.
Change the cranks to carbon Campagnolo crank which is lighter,
get hand-built 16 spoke Velocity Aeroheat wheels to reduce wheel weight,
Titanium seatpost, bars and bolts
Phil Wood transmission can reduce the weight,
as can removing one of the brakes.
This will result is a Brompton with a weight of around 8kg


----------



## Red Light (16 Oct 2012)

V for Vengedetta said:


> Grab yourself a NeoBike which is made in the far east using Brompton tooling, but its made from a lighter alloy.
> Change the cranks to carbon Campagnolo crank which is lighter,
> get hand-built 16 spoke Velocity Aeroheat wheels to reduce wheel weight,
> Titanium seatpost, bars and bolts
> ...


 
Pretty sure the NeoBike/Merc frames weigh more than the standard Brompton frame despite being alloy.


----------



## Mr Haematocrit (16 Oct 2012)

Red Light said:


> Pretty sure the NeoBike/Merc frames weigh more than the standard Brompton frame despite being alloy.


 
I believe that this is the case for some of the frames, but not all of them although I can't clarify this myself, so you may be right.
I run a Dahon folder with loads of holes drilled in it ( this definitely saves weight.. lol )


----------



## Laurence Green (5 Feb 2013)

mickle said:


> One word; Steve Perry.


Or Steve Parry - I've heard that he's no longer taking orders.


----------



## Flying Dodo (5 Feb 2013)

Although aesthetically the Brompton is a wonderful thing, it is just so massively over-engineered in places. The main tube just doesn't need to be as big and bulky as it is.


----------



## mickle (5 Feb 2013)

Flying Dodo said:


> Although aesthetically the Brompton is a wonderful thing, it is just so massively over-engineered in places. The main tube just doesn't need to be as big and bulky as it is.



Yeahbut. What it loses in (alleged) aesthetic appeal it more than makes up for in structural rigidity.


----------



## CopperBrompton (20 Feb 2013)

+1 for just unfolding and wheeling it. It takes 17 seconds tops to unfold it, so mine gets unfolded and wheeled any distance more than a handful of steps.


----------



## Crankarm (20 Feb 2013)

Flying Dodo said:


> Although aesthetically the Brompton is a wonderful thing, it is just so massively over-engineered in places. *The main tube just doesn't need to be as big and bulky as it is*.


 
According to Brompton it does for strength and durability. I emailed them a couple of years ago about producing a full ti frame and this was the explanation I got.


----------



## Rohloff_Brompton_Rider (20 Feb 2013)

You can buy a ti Brompton, a company in the USA makes one.....£15,000 tho.


----------



## chriscross1966 (31 May 2017)

Someone has just put pictures up on one of the Facebook Brompton Groups of a 5.7Kg Bromopton that still has the standard frame.... the rest of it (even the hubs) is mostly carbon fibre


----------



## Flying Dodo (31 May 2017)

Ooooo....I wonder how much?


----------



## Fab Foodie (31 May 2017)

Flying Dodo said:


> Ooooo....I wonder how much?


5.7kgs I reckon ;-)


----------



## deptfordmarmoset (31 May 2017)

Fab Foodie said:


> 5.7kgs I reckon ;-)


5.7 Kilodollars


----------



## TheDoctor (1 Jun 2017)

If I could lay my hands on enough pre-preg (and an autoclave) I'd love to try making a Brompton frame out of carbon.
The hinges would be difficult. Making hardpoints in carbon is, well, hard.
Although, the only time I've ever had an issue with the weight was when SNCF made me fold and bag my M6R before I got onto the platform at Gare du Lyon.
Two TGVs coupled together are surprisingly long, and lo! I cursed without hesitation, deviation or repetition for almost 1/4 of a mile.


----------



## mustang1 (1 Jun 2017)

I don't think brompton will make the bike lighter for the foreseeable future. Right now i.reckon they're concentrating on developing an electric version. 

I'd love to get a lighter version at a fair price but I can't see that happening until some other wonder material, we , materialises 

The X version isn't light enough and already costs more than what I want to pay.


----------



## Cycleops (1 Jun 2017)

The thing is Brompton is not really a bicycle company, it facilitates urban transportation. They have developed it as far as they want to in that role. Its already very expensive and making a slightly lighter model wouldn't increase sales to people that want to ride it across town and store it in their office.

As mustang says the holy grail for them now is the electric version.


----------



## Kell (2 Jun 2017)

I think perhaps you're looking at the situation from the wrong end.

The problem is that the Brompton is heavy to carry long distances.

One solution could be that you make it lighter so it's easier to carry. But in my experience it's not the weight in and of itself that's the problem, but the awkwardness of the bike once folded. Also, as others have mentioned, so much kit is OEM and non-standard sizes that this would be horrendously expensive for very marginal gains.

So another solution could be one in which you make it easier to transport while folded.

This *could* be by making proper rollers that would allow you to push/pull it with ease.

If something like the Sidewinder (3rd party add on) could be incorporated into the bike, then it wouldn't need to be lighter.

(Sidewinder: http://www.wheeelz.co.uk/)

Or it could be some sort of rucksack or strapping that would make it easier to use your shoulders to distribute the weight. Though, I have to say folding it up, putting it in a bag or then having oil or road grime drip down your back probably wouldn't work for everyone.


----------



## reppans (2 Jun 2017)

It is an awfully awkward thing to carry, if held like a suitcase/briefcase down by your legs. But the Brompton's compactness and locking fold makes it easy to carry on top of my shoulder(s) - water container style. While touring, I usually carry mine ~1/4 mile into woods for wild camping, and have carried it up a ~30 story staircase (to the top of a 300' dam) - T bag with full touring kit carried in backpack mode. Also being on the short side I can carry it comfortably at a normal walking pace though my entire house - narrow staircases and hallways incl., with a free hand to open/close doors along the way. ~20 yards is about my limit for suitcase-carry style, then it goes up on 1, or across 2, shoulder(s). Fully kitted, my Brommie is up to 35lbs and is my heaviest bike.... yet is by far the easiest to carry distance.


----------



## bikegang (6 Jun 2017)

Yet another record (5.24 KG). Nothing from brompton I am afraid. But the possibility ... .

View attachment 355763
View attachment 355764
View attachment 355765
View attachment 355766
View attachment 355767
View attachment 355768
View attachment 355769
View attachment 355770
View attachment 355771
View attachment 355772


----------



## steveindenmark (6 Jun 2017)

I am thinking that some of these people must carry their bikes more than they ride them.


----------



## rogerzilla (6 Jun 2017)

One of mine is 23 1/4 lb with SPDs - just weighed it. Ti frame bits and seatpost, Flite saddle and no mudguards but it has proper cranks and bigger sprockets than a normal Brompton, plus bar ends - those put some weight back on.

The other one is probably 35 lb as it is an M-type with SON-XS, lights and Marathon Plus tyres. I daren't weigh it.


----------



## rogerzilla (6 Jun 2017)

Flying Dodo said:


> Although aesthetically the Brompton is a wonderful thing, it is just so massively over-engineered in places. The main tube just doesn't need to be as big and bulky as it is.


If they made it from a stronger steel it could be thinner and/or butted. I think the current frame is just hi-tensile steel. Fillet brazing would need to be looked at too: they do that because no-one makes lugs to suit but a good air-hardening chromoly steel could be TIG welded.

You'd see more rusted-out main frames if they were thinner gauge, though - Brompton rear frames are known to rust through and the bikes often have a hard life.


----------



## Flying Dodo (6 Jun 2017)

bikegang said:


> Yet another record (5.24 KG). Nothing from brompton I am afraid. But the possibility ... .



Wow! Where can I get one?


----------



## doginabag (6 Jun 2017)

Will those EZ wheels last more than one fold?


----------



## TheDoctor (6 Jun 2017)

Carbon brakes? Seriously?
I mean, I'd love one, but bits of that look as fragile as anything.
I still want one.


----------



## T4tomo (25 Jun 2017)

The solution to it being" a bit heavy to carry" is to ride it or wheel it.


----------



## novetan (19 Jul 2020)

As I was googling how to lighten a Brompton, this thread pop out. Though already past a few yrs, hope someone can advise.
I believed Brompton do have options, changing the rear triangle and fork to Ti and a saving of 700g but would add another USD $1000. But wonder why brompton no option for main frame. There are Ti main frame selling on line and just a wild guess that could be the main weight saver. Ti main fr weigh 1500g. Anyone knows whats the weight for steel? It don't come cheap though, costing ard USD$2000 for Ti main frame.


----------



## Gunk (19 Jul 2020)

JC4LAB said:


> Just as important is how light can you yourself become....as a 17stone Brompton user myself Ihave given up light bikes. Body weight would be much easier and cheaper to get off....Titanium oiptions would be more for strength than weight reduction in my case.. eg..as a heavier rider I find seat post stems can bend just a touch over time making them a tough fold.Steel ones are cheap to replace though at a fifth of the price of titaniuim)..



very good point, I’ve managed to lose 3 kg over lockdown, much cheaper than replacement titanium forks and seat post!


----------



## berlinonaut (19 Jul 2020)

novetan said:


> As I was googling how to lighten a Brompton, this thread pop out. Though already past a few yrs, hope someone can advise.
> I believed Brompton do have options, changing the rear triangle and fork to Ti and a saving of 700g but would add another USD $1000. But wonder why brompton no option for main frame. There are Ti main frame selling on line and just a wild guess that could be the main weight saver. Ti main fr weigh 1500g. Anyone knows whats the weight for steel?


The steel version weights around 2100g. So the weight saving by a ti main frame is there but way less than one would expect. And that saving comes at a very steep price, even that those actual ti frames are not hand brazed in London but made in China, unlicensed, untested for safety and quality and in unclear social and enviromental conditions. Apart from the fact that - judging from what users say - the chinese Brompton-clone ti main frames seem to have the stiffness of cooked spaghetti.
Which seems obvious when looking at the properties of titanium and steel - just using titanium building the more or less idential measurements of the steel version leads to that result - a proper titanium main frame would need some refinement. Google for the UFB (Ultimate Folding Bike) by Len Rubin - a titanium Brompton clone that was made years ago and estimated to sell at a very high price. The tubing looks "somewhat" different from that of the chinese frames - probably for a reason...


----------



## simongt (19 Jul 2020)

As a Brommy is designed only to be carried relatively short distances; further, then half fold and trundle on the mini wheels, is there really any point in this discussion apart from the aesthetic - ?


----------



## Gunk (19 Jul 2020)

simongt said:


> As a Brommy is designed only to be carried relatively short distances; further, then half fold and trundle on the mini wheels, is there really any point in this discussion apart from the aesthetic - ?



quite agree


----------



## berlinonaut (19 Jul 2020)

simongt said:


> As a Brommy is designed only to be carried relatively short distances; further, then half fold and trundle on the mini wheels, is there really any point in this discussion apart from the aesthetic - ?


Sure there is. A Brompton is also designed to be a "city bike" - look what people are using it for... Regarding the weight: I live on the forth floor of an old house and have to carry the bike down in the morning and up in the evening. That's slightly more than 100 stairs one way - at least twice each day. Similar situation (though less stairs) in my office. Similar situation in most railway stations and many, many other situations. So yes, weight does matter and less weight is very welcome as long as it is affordable and does not limit the practical usage of the bike (which in my case i.e. means: blades and dynamo lights are mandatory as is the necessary robustness for everyday usage).


----------



## novetan (19 Jul 2020)

berlinonaut said:


> The steel version weights around 2100g. So the weight saving by a ti main frame is there but way less than one would expect. And that saving comes at a very steep price, even that those actual ti frames are not hand brazed in London but made in China, unlicensed, untested for safety and quality and in unclear social and enviromental conditions. Apart from the fact that - judging from what users say - the chinese Brompton-clone ti main frames seem to have the stiffness of cooked spaghetti. Which seems obvious when looking at the properties of titanium and steel - just using titanium building the more or less idential measurements of the steel version leads to that result - a proper titanium main frame would need some refinement. Google for the UFB (Ultimate Folding Bike) by Len Rubin - a titanium Brompton clone that was made years ago and estimated to sell at a very high price. The tubing looks "somewhat" different from that of the chinese frames - probably for a reason...



Currently I’m riding a clone brompton which is 3Sixty. Honestly it is really not that bad at 1/3 the price. One would not able to tell the diff in a blind fold test ride. They are using Sturmey Archer hub and shifter. The rest are merely welding and assembly work, so its not rocket science. Quality wise may not be super if u don't take a closer peep. You get what you paid. Good enough to bring me ard. 

I do have some engineering knowledge. To break a weld is really not that easy. The Ti frame is 1500g, costing ard USD $2000. To save 600g at an exhorbitant add cost of 2k for sure is not justify. Better off to swap the fork and triangle if one were to look into wt savings.

I agreed with many here in previous posts the bike is way too heavy. And for 40 yrs almost nothing change is actually not forward looking. Brompton is so sellable. If they were to engineer a Ti version, am sure they can create a niche market whilst maintaining the config.


----------



## novetan (19 Jul 2020)

simongt said:


> As a Brommy is designed only to be carried relatively short distances; further, then half fold and trundle on the mini wheels, is there really any point in this discussion apart from the aesthetic - ?



I supposed different stroke for different folks. Some attune to more practical thinking, some prefer to splurge before they hit the grave. I got someone already answered my query. So will not drag the topic. Cheers


----------



## berlinonaut (19 Jul 2020)

novetan said:


> Currently I’m riding a clone brompton which is 3Sixty. Honestly it is really not that bad at 1/3 the price. One would not able to tell the diff in a blind fold test ride.


Well, in my eyes that's a bad start. I would not buy from people stealing other people's intellectual property as shameless as the 360 people did. And there are way enough shortcuts on that interpretation of a Brompton and it is based on an early 90ies design that got frankensteined to the worse. Your buy makes your statement even stranger: 


novetan said:


> And for 40 yrs almost nothing change is actually not forward looking. Brompton is so sellable.


Well, you did not buy one but a cheap (in multiple ways) copy. So you already proved that the development ist not of value to you as you are neither willing to pay for it nor to even pay for the development that has already happened - you bought a pirated copy instead from people that did not invest a single penny in development. 

Regarding your "40 years no development" statement I'd recommend looking again. No one would hoenstly say a Mk1 from 1980 would be even close to a today's Brompton - the current raw shape started with the MK2 in 1987, that's 33 years. A Mk2 and an actual Brompton have exactly two parts in common: The rear hinge and the plastic bit on the stem that holds the stem in folded state. Every other bit and part has changed, most of them more than once. If you want change go and buy a Dahon - they change their parts and models so frequently that they are not able to provide spare parts or at least reliable data about their current lineup...


----------



## novetan (20 Jul 2020)

...


----------



## novetan (20 Jul 2020)

berlinonaut said:


> Well, in my eyes that's a bad start. I would not buy from people stealing other people's intellectual property as shameless as the 360 people did. And there are way enough shortcuts on that interpretation of a Brompton and it is based on an early 90ies design that got frankensteined to the worse. Your buy makes your statement even stranger:
> 
> Well, you did not buy one but a cheap (in multiple ways) copy. So you already proved that the development ist not of value to you as you are neither willing to pay for it nor to even pay for the development that has already happened - you bought a pirated copy instead from people that did not invest a single penny in development.
> 
> Regarding your "40 years no development" statement I'd recommend looking again. No one would hoenstly say a Mk1 from 1980 would be even close to a today's Brompton - the current raw shape started with the MK2 in 1987, that's 33 years. A Mk2 and an actual Brompton have exactly two parts in common: The rear hinge and the plastic bit on the stem that holds the stem in folded state. Every other bit and part has changed, most of them more than once. If you want change go and buy a Dahon - they change their parts and models so frequently that they are not able to provide spare parts or at least reliable data about their current lineup...



Me buying a clone seems to hit a raw nerve of you. You are incorrect to state 360 is stealing Brom intellectual property. There are articles you can check it out their licence are over. So it is legitimate. There are already a few clones, Pike Elements and two others which is less popular.

I applaud Brom retain the basic config besides the minor tweaking which I‘m not blinded. I admit it’s the best fold. Why reinvent the wheel when its aren’t broke. That is one reason I bought the 360 albeit a clone. And it is uniquely chromed which Brom don't have. Besides its 1/3 the price and all I want is some fun riding. I can have the cake and eat it. SpaceX has ventured into materials that re-entry will not subject to falling tiles. Selle Anatomica took a step further over Brooks with their leather saddle in different thickness and lighter that don’t require 500 or 1000 miles to break in. That is innovation. Of course not everyone can attest to Selle and some has gone back to Brooks. On the same token, some would hv gone back to Brom after trying out the bike clone. To each his own.

You can brag all you want carrying the brom over 100 stairs twice a day. Not everyone is as musular as you. What am saying brom shld attempt to innovate the material portion, not to change config like Dahon or Tern. Some has called for carbon even. But personally I think that is a tough call when folding is involved.

Anyway, its not my business shld Brom wish to remain status quo for the next 100 yrs. I’m not suggesting them to explore rocket science material. Just kind of making it lighter where u already hv a bunch of people complaining- as far as I know reading fr various articles. Then some will argue u r suppose to ride or atmost push wheel a few feet away, as if they knew their situation. Anyway with brom remain less innovative will keep many hobboyists happy in building up a ti frame, me included potentially.

I got the answer fr you. TQ for that. The main frame wt diff comes up to 600g and that would allow me a cost evaluation. Now u may say it doesn't add up since I'm prepare to part with my cash. I can give you another tonne of reasons. So its unproductive for a protracted argument here as it was already a very old thread, besides I know my direction now.


----------



## berlinonaut (20 Jul 2020)

novetan said:


> Me buying a clone seems to hit a raw nerve of you.


Judging from your latest post it seems rather to hit a nerve with you....


novetan said:


> You are incorrect to state 360 is stealing Brom intellectual property. There are articles you can check it out their licence are over. So it is legitimate.


Did you read about the recent court case that Brompton won against Chedtech? https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/b...opyright-case-against-get2get-chedech.264679/ There's probably a reason why 360 do not dare to offer their bikes in Europe....



novetan said:


> You can brag all you want carrying the brom over 100 stairs twice a day. Not everyone is as musular as you.


Ad-hominem-attacks to not make your argumentation any better.


----------



## novetan (20 Jul 2020)

IP laws are complicated and depends what areas you want protected. Design, folding, functional, etc etc. Not forgetting you have to apply worldwide coverage too. If they don’t cover a particular country, then that country have every right to copy. That is the law. I’m not here to encourage pilferage. Am sure Brom got good advise its not worth to cover China. Then which country 360 wish to sell is beyond our discussion here.

That doc you attached is just a general news. You and me do not know the details enough to make a judgement. Nothing is considered cast in stone as the defendant can appeal until everything is exhausted. Then that is the judgement.


----------



## berlinonaut (20 Jul 2020)

novetan said:


> IP laws are complicated and depends what areas you want protected. Design, folding, functional, etc etc. Not forgetting you have to apply worldwide coverage too. If they don’t cover a particular country, then that country have every right to copy. That is the law. I’m not here to encourage pilferage. Am sure Brom got good advise its not worth to cover China. Then which country 360 wish to sell is beyond our discussion here.
> 
> That doc you attached is just a general news. You and me do not know the details enough to make a judgement. Nothing is considered cast in stone as the defendant can appeal until everything is exhausted. Then that is the judgement.


There are the Brompton patents that have indeed expired about 20 years ago. Then there's the area of copyright which includes general intellectual property. The actual case against Cedech referred to the unique and iconic shape of the Brompton that is an essential part of the brand. It is basically in the same area that the form and shape of a small Coca-Cola bottle would be protected and Coca-Cola could (and probably would) sue anyone using this shape for a competing product. In no ways it would be forbidden to sell a similar product that does look different and the same is true for Brompton. They tried to sue Dahon for the Curl and pulled back before a court did decide on that matter as it seemed that the Curl would be different enough. They sucessfully sued Merc for selling their Bromton clones in Europe under different names and in different countries. They sucessfully sued Neobike before for doing the same thing.

Suing someone in Asia is a different story, as the perception of copyright and intellectual property may be different and it is very expensive and of unclear success to get lawyers. The more as the issue happens in a variety of Asian countries and the companies pop up and close quickly plus they subcontract, label and sub-brand, so it is already a problem to identify the company or person that is responsible. And if you have managed to do that then you need to get hold of them and then to bring them to court and succeed there. They may already have permutated in the meantime, so it is a race that you can't win. Basically a hydra with many heads: Even if you finally manage to chop one off after much effort ten others may have grown while you were occupied with the first one. I'd assume that's why Brompton until now do not do legal action in Asia as far as I know - waste of time and money. Not because they believe what the clone guys are doing would be legal - it is not. Europe is a bit safer ground in that regard, way less hydra-effect here and way safer ground for legal action.
Land Rover sucessfully sued Landwind (a Chinese car brand) in China for copying their design (I think it was the Discovery they copied). So even in China it is clear that this kind of behaviour is far from being legal.

What is clear is that basically all Brompton clones are a direct or indirect result from the licensing deal Brompton hat with Neobike between 1992 and 2002 and the illegal actions Neobike took afterwards - and this is also the reason why these clones even today are typically based on a 30 year old state of the Brompton - the one that was licensed to Neobike at the beginning of the nineties.

Regarding the Chedech case: In the article there is a link to more detailled legal documents and if you google you will find way more easily w/o any effort. The ruling is not really complicated to understand.

Apart from any legal topics I personally do not buy copycat stuff, that is a question of morale, but also rational: For one because I have respect for inventors and no respect for copycats and secondly because the copycats typically only exist because they offer at a lower price which comes at a cost: They simply copy w/o understanding the construction plus - as the price is their only justification of existence - the quality is typically way lower as they have to take shortcuts to get the price down and they are always lagging behind the development of the original product as they only copy but do not develop. This is true for a fake Rolex, this is true for a fake iPhone or fake Airpods and it is true for a fake Brompton. If you only look at the price you end up getting a cheap product that on first look may look similar but one that probably is of worse quality as well, sometimes to the amount of being dangerous or unusable for the intended purpose. Definitively one that has close to zero resale value, a high risk of not so obvious issues and differences to the original and a very questionable longterm quality. So in the end you loose way more money than what you believe to safe upfront.


----------



## novetan (20 Jul 2020)

I gonna cut to the chase. You uphold IP, and yes we shld. Then you should not even advise me the wt of steel knowing my intention to build up using ti parts which basically these parts are replicas. You even provide source of info UFB Len Rubin. 

Overall its an attempt making yourself sitting on high horse. I hv nothing further much to add.


----------



## berlinonaut (20 Jul 2020)

novetan said:


> I gonna cut to the chase. You uphold IP, and yes we shld. Then you should not even advise me the wt of steel knowing my intention to build up using ti parts which basically these parts are replicas. You even provide source of info UFB Len Rubin.
> 
> Overall its an attempt making yourself sitting on high horse. I hv nothing further much to add.


Information is free and it is good that this is the case. Also it it up to you what you do or don't do - it is your responsibility, not mine. It seems that you only accept confirmation for whatever you plan to do (which you did not outline) and see any information that does not confirm your plans in any way as a personal attack (which is a bit of a weird attitude in my eyes). Also you better get your homework done in terms of information before you start your next riduculous attempt of an ad-hominem attack. Len Rubin created and sold a small handful of so called "Superbromptons" based on normal Brompton bikes starting in the late 90ies and around 2000 started his approach to develop the UFB (which never made it to production). This was 20 years ago. He got in touch with Brompton at that time and - against his own expectations - they were interested in what he was doing and in no way stopped him. In fact the titanium Brompton parts, coming to market only in 2005, may be an indirect result of Len Rubins showcase of the UFB. I am not on a high horse - I just know my stuff which seems not to be the case with you. Confusing facts with personal belief, wishful thinking and avoiding uncomfortable truths to justify silly behaviour is not too helpful here.


----------



## novetan (20 Jul 2020)

Granted that Rubins collabration with brom was legal, you are muddling the issue. You shld detest those that attempt to build up their own Ti bike with no collabration with Brom. So my pt is why provide me the info even knowing my intention.

I just state the fact you are carrying the bike 100 steps twice a day. And I said not everyone can be like you. No malicious intent. I have to give it to you you r a strong man. You merely self inflict yourself that I attempt a ad-hominem. How ridiculous. You are indeed a confused person.


----------



## Gunk (20 Jul 2020)

_





_


----------



## dodgy (20 Jul 2020)

One positive thing this thread has driven home and it's the depth of expertise and knowledge available around here*!

*from some members


----------



## All uphill (20 Jul 2020)

I like the weight-saving spelling in parts of this thread, cutting out those unccssry vwls!


----------



## Tenkaykev (20 Jul 2020)

Speaking of Titanium and Brommies, I see a 2018 CHPT3 has just sold for £5,600 on Ebay, 24 bids in total.


----------



## dodgy (20 Jul 2020)

All uphill said:


> I like the weight-saving spelling in parts of this thread, cutting out those unccssry vwls!



I usually put as much effort into reading those kind of posts as the poster did in writing them.


----------



## rogerzilla (20 Jul 2020)

Copyright is a good thing, within limits. Personally (and I speak as a Brompton owner) I think they've had their return on the original design and need to innovate a bit more. Use a better grade of steel to save weight (in fact, get the prodigious weight of the thing down to 22lb at the most, so small women and older people can carry it). Make more parts user-serviceable. Lose the threaded headset and fit some bottle bosses. I could go on.

To use an analogy, when Paul McCartney successfully lobbied for music copyright to be extended to 90 years, one pithy comment was, "I wish I could keep being paid for an afternoon's work I did 50 years ago."


----------



## Shreds (20 Jul 2020)

The idea of a lightweight Brompton has been achieved (see A to B magazine) and it is a great shame that after having personally had one substantially “lightened” a decade ago (Ti & CF which proves durability and the flex in the current standard Brompton chainset) that Brompton are more interested in profit from clothing and ancillaries than improving Andrew Ritchie’s basic concept, claiming durability is compromised. No it is not.

Better than adding a heavy electric motor at a hell of a price. They are missing a trick undoubtedly.

If they invested much more in R&D in bike design than in bag and clothing design which is short term profit, plus why the Moulton rides better, they could create an even wider market (especially amongst those who are not weightlifters).

As it is I doubt they will change. Shame. (They needed Steve Parry as head of R&D - at least his one off design improvements were innovative).


----------



## berlinonaut (20 Jul 2020)

Shreds said:


> The idea of a lightweight Brompton has been achieved (see A to B magazine) and it is a great shame that after having personally had one substantially “lightened” a decade ago (Ti & CF which proves durability and the flex in the current standard Brompton chainset) that Brompton are more interested in profit from clothing and ancillaries than improving Andrew Ritchie’s basic concept, claiming durability is compromised. No it is not.
> 
> Better than adding a heavy electric motor at a hell of a price. They are missing a trick undoubtedly.
> 
> ...


While I in general agree with the criticism I think the issue is not that simple. Going electric is THE mainstream of the last years and for the years to come. And it fits perfectly to Brompton's value proposition and vision. To leave out this opportunity would be totally silly and economically a bad decision. Though Brompton has grown massively over the last decade they are still a relatively small company - so focus is probably a good thing. With the move to the new factory with a capacity of 100.000 bikes they are damned to growth. Which they achieve by many different things - one of them is an image change from a quirky engineer's product to a fashion product. More or less what happened to the original Moulton in the 60ies. For that they have created all the bling of the last years with colors, special editions and all the accessories. The market proofs them right so far and those accessories foster the fashion factor of the bike that helps with growth.

Getting lighter and many other bits that forum people demand are very technical driven, so nothing the mainstream would honor too much. Even in this very forum Brompton gets criticized regularly for being too expensive already. Creating lighter bikes, let alone full titanium ones would not help here, in opposite it would raise the price considerably. Instead Brompton invented the B75 as an entry model, much in traditon of the C model of 2000, to reach a lower price tag while sacrificing some more modern components - and it seems to be a huge success.

On the other hand: I cannot imagine that Brompton would not experiment (or have experimented) with lighter materials or a full titanium main frame to some degree. A couple of years ago they ended the contracts with the companies in China and Russia that made the titanium parts for them and founded a daughter company of their own in the UK together with another partner that - as far as I can judge - is now building the titanium parts. Would make perfect sense if this company would do a little R&D on top. Still I do not see a full ti-Brompton just around the corner but given the current crazy prices for Bromptons there seems to be some room for even more expensive models than their current regular ti ones. I guess if they ever invent a ti-frame at some point in future it will quickly be discussed here (and I am sure that a lot of people will complain about the price... ).

Get me right: I dislike a lot of things Brompton currently does - still I think from an economical perspective their decisions make sense for them.


----------



## Shreds (21 Jul 2020)

So, economically, Brompton are cashing in on their name. Nearly everything Brompton sell is at a huge premium, which causes many punters to purchase inferior ‘cheap’ lookalikes, that are usually appalling rip offs and actually detract from a good cycling experience, often ending up skipped or on evilBay/Gumtree.

The ‘value’ proposition of the B75 was a good idea, and was probably forced on them because they were losing a significant part of their ‘low end’ market.

However the basic economic fact remains that they need a “product extension strategy” to existing committed Brompton users more than pretty colours.

I sometimes feel Brompton and BrooksEngland (Selle Royale) share the same marketing agency of premium cycling products to a totally committed fan base. (And yes, I do absolutely agree that comfort wise, you do not get better than a leather Brooks).


----------



## berlinonaut (21 Jul 2020)

Shreds said:


> So, economically, Brompton are cashing in on their name.


If you look at ebay at the moment I'd rather say other's are cashing on Brompton's name... Brompton cash on their product and its quality and value that they developed for 40 years. If you look at their financial statements it is not that they would earn silly profits - they are a solid company that is profitable within a very reasonable amount. They deliver decent value - the bikes are in fact not expensive for what you get in exchange, for what you safe in cost for car or public transport and you get astonishing prices when you sell your used Brompton. Not so much to complain I guess.


Shreds said:


> Nearly everything Brompton sell is at a huge premium, which causes many punters to purchase inferior ‘cheap’ lookalikes, that are usually appalling rip offs and actually detract from a good cycling experience, often ending up skipped or on evilBay/Gumtree.


So it is Brompton's fault that people are buying trashy bikes? Interesting idea. 



Shreds said:


> However the basic economic fact remains that they need a “product extension strategy” to existing committed Brompton users more than pretty colours.


Why?


----------



## Shreds (21 Jul 2020)

Business basics


----------



## Cuchilo (21 Jul 2020)

I think the post was removed but it would be about 64 steps to the fourth floor not well over 100 . Just saying


----------



## berlinonaut (22 Jul 2020)

Cuchilo said:


> I think the post was removed but it would be about 64 steps to the fourth floor not well over 100 . Just saying


Good that you know the house I am living in and that you know it better than me... It is a typical old Berlin house with rooms being 3,50m-3,70m high - which obviously has an effect on the number of stairs to climb for each floor im comparison to modern standard room heights. Depending from where you are living my 4th floor would bei the 5th floor (if you are American i.e.). Plus in the case of my house there are a bunch of stairs from street level to the ground floor. Now go and count again.


----------



## berlinonaut (22 Jul 2020)

Shreds said:


> Business basics


A bit of a short answer. If that's your only cause it sounds a bit oversimplified and I would not agree with that - business advanced  teaches a lot of different approaches to growth-strategies and dealing with existing customers. Your's is basically the approach the American car industry invented in the 1950ies to be able to sell customers a new car each year. So a very old approach. For one, economy has developed massively since then plus constantly selling new bikes to existing customers would not be a very sustainable approach, so not really fit with Brompton's company vision. Apart from the fact that customers would need to have a better alternative to switch to to force a company to follow their wishes for not loosing them. For the wider part of the customer base this better alternative does not exist. Plus I bevlieveyou massively overestimate the relevance of the wishes of technically interested forum members for Brompton as customers.


----------



## Shreds (22 Jul 2020)

I have been in business many years and have a very wide knowledge of management and business development in both multimillion pound companies as well as SMEs so dont underestimate my assessments. 

A significant proportion of potential buyers are deterred by the weight of the bike.

I am not alone in disagreeing with some Brompton policies. I believe Andrew Ritchie came to blows at some point too.

I will end this discussion here as I have better things to do.


----------



## Cuchilo (22 Jul 2020)

berlinonaut said:


> Good that you know the house I am living in and that you know it better than me... It is a typical old Berlin house with rooms being 3,50m-3,70m high - which obviously has an effect on the number of stairs to climb for each floor im comparison to modern standard room heights. Depending from where you are living my 4th floor would bei the 5th floor (if you are American i.e.). Plus in the case of my house there are a bunch of stairs from street level to the ground floor. Now go and count again.


I took the period property into account when doing my calculations and yes i do know you house better than you even though ive never seen it and its in a different country . 
Now you have added a basement so i think you can add another 10 from street level making 74 steps .
4th floor to 5th floor in other countries is just silly .


----------



## rogerzilla (23 Jul 2020)

Brompton have specifically profited from the C2W scheme. They wouldn't sell half as many bikes at £1000 if people had to pay real money for them. A higher-rate taxpayer can actually make a profit by buying a new Brompton as frequently as the scheme allows and selling the last one.


----------



## berlinonaut (23 Jul 2020)

Cuchilo said:


> yes i do know you house better than you even though ive never seen it and its in a different country .


That is amazing!


----------



## berlinonaut (23 Jul 2020)

rogerzilla said:


> Brompton have specifically profited from the C2W scheme. They wouldn't sell half as many bikes at £1000 if people had to pay real money for them. A higher-rate taxpayer can actually make a profit by buying a new Brompton as frequently as the scheme allows and selling the last one.


This is probably true - but on the other hand: Brompton would be stupid not trying to take a benefit from that. I cannot see where Brompton's fault would be or why they are the root of all evil. And I definitively cannot understand where you hate on Brompton comes from. The whole idea behind c2w is to bring more people on bikes, for many good reasons. C2W enables this, the taxpayer pays for it indirectly and Brompton (as one manufacturer of many) as well as the buyer profits from it. Plus less solvent buyers profit, too, as the number of young, used Bromptons on the market rises and so they can get their hands on one. Where is your problem?

I do not know about the situation in the UK - in Germany we do have a similar program and basically it replicates the rules for company cars that have existed already for decades. I'd assume BMW, Mercedes and a lot of other brands would sell way less cars w/o those rules. So the bike schemes create at least equal treatment instead of punishing bike riders in comparison to car owners.
Regarding the "making a profit"-part: According to https://www.cyclescheme.co.uk/calculator savings for a 1000€ Brompton (or any other bike) are as follows (assumed salary of £60.000, I guess this ranks as "higher salary"):

£1000/1 year saves you £170, you pay £830 in real money and you have to sell your one year old Brompton for more to make a profit
£1000/4 years saves you £350, you pay £650 in real money and you have to sell your four year old Brompton for more to make a profit
£1500/1 year saves you £255, you pay £1245 in real money and you have to sell your one year old Brompton for more to make a profit
£1500/4 years saves you £525, you pay £975 in real money and you have to sell your four year old Brompton for more to make a profit

While it may be possible to make a profit with selling the used bike I'd assume I'd be a pretty small one (apart from the current special market situation at Corona conditions). A two digit profit if you are lucky, I'd guess. At max, rather a blank nil. I would assume no one with a 60k income would go through c2w for the one reason to gain £20-£50. Or did I get something wrong?

So you are basically complaining that people are willing to pay too much for a used Brompton in your opinion (more than for another used bike) and accuse Brompton for that.  Basically you accuse Brompton for being liked by customers which is especially funny as in this thread people wrote Brompton would ignore their customers (and thus basically would or should be out of business longer term). At least you should decide for one of the two arguments - using both at the same time seems a bit unplausible to me.


----------



## mitchibob (23 Jul 2020)

Dunno how many times I've had to explain the same to people... thanks for giving me something to link to!


----------



## rogerzilla (24 Jul 2020)

Used Bromptons sell for around their original purchase price if marketed on eBay with a postage option. A 2018 M3L goes for about £750 to £800 even with pickup only, and the new price was around £830 (Evans). This isn't because they don't wear out, it's because of the escalating price of a new one. 

As they get older, they can sell for a premium over the original RRP. A 2009 (yes, 2009) M3L went for £950 recently. It was £550 when new.


----------



## berlinonaut (24 Jul 2020)

We had this discussion recently, so no need to go down the same route again. You cannot travel back eleven years in time (or even just two years) to buy a new Brompton for £550 plus even back then it was an offer price. If you want a Brompton now you have to pay what they cost today, new or used. And the prices of used bikes are decided by what people are willing to pay for them which is closely related to what people consider them to be worth and what value they see in them. So obviously people value them a lot - you may see a lower value and consider people to be idiots and yourself to be the only clever man in town and this may be true or not. I still do not get why you accuse Brompton for that. 

Regarding the pricing: You can consider yourself lucky in the uk - in Germany a M3L did cost 839€ in 2009 and 1322€ in 2018 according to old price lists. They definitively are more expensive over here (still people buy them) but not as excessively as you claim. Btw: In 1987 a L3 did cost £209 in the UK and in 1997 a L3 did cost £391, according to contemporary price lists. Why don't you demand these prices today? If you prefer to live in the past and use bargain prices as the relevant reference this is your free choice. The disadvantage is that it seems to make you grumpy and unhappy due to unrealistic expectations. I guess you did have a pay raise since 1987 and also one since 1997, 2009 and maybe also since 2018. Brompton employees did possibly, too. Plus there's a thing called "inflation". 

Get me right: I too think that a lot of people do pay way too much for an old clunker Brompton. Often because they don't realize the age and don't realize the differences between older and newer models. I therefor even wrote an extensive buyer's guide for used Bromptons, already back in 2014. But I would not accuse Brompton for that fact because I consider this a very strange approach plus - in opposite to you - I do see massive developments in between different model years, something you deny as you say no development has happened.


----------



## rogerzilla (24 Jul 2020)

I own a Brompton (a very nice 21lb titanium one, for what it's worth) but I am painfully aware of its flaws and poor value for money. My point is that secondhand ones are only so expensive because new ones keep escalating in price, way beyond normal inflation, and the C2W scheme has largely facilitated this. The price of a basic M3L or S3L rose to the old £1000 limit of most schemes. This may be a coincidence but I doubt it. It's good business for Brompton Bicycle but not for buyers. They are pretty good at squashing the competition through legal action to maintain their position. Were this not the case, the Taiwanese would have copied the basic fold - now only protected by dubious copyright of the look, rather than a technical patent - and left them far behind. Why are they still using a hi-ten steel frame after all these years? Or components more befitting a £200 bike rather than a £1000 one? Because there's no competition.


----------



## u_i (24 Jul 2020)

rogerzilla said:


> I am painfully aware of its flaws and poor value for money.



Well, different owners can have different opinions. I cannot count how many bikes I have - presumably somewhere in the vicinity of 15 and there many more in the past. None has been as coherent, well rounded and ready for use right away as Brompton and none represented comparably good value for money.


----------



## Gunk (24 Jul 2020)

I've said before, if I only had to keep one bike it would be my Brompton.


----------



## FrankCrank (25 Jul 2020)

Think I posted this on another thread, but here you go:
https://www.lazada.co.th/products/l...4m.searchlist.list.49.240a4030zQBv77&search=1
Ally frame and 3-speed SA hub. Not sure how it compares to a Brommie, but at less than 150 beer tokens, free delivery and COD, it does look a good deal. Lazada is a local version of Amazon by the way. Anyways, food for thought eh


----------



## FrankCrank (25 Jul 2020)

.....and this might be of interest:
https://newatlas.com/bicycles/one-off-folding-bike/


----------



## Gunk (25 Jul 2020)

FrankCrank said:


> .....and this might be of interest:
> https://newatlas.com/bicycles/one-off-folding-bike/



That is really trick, must have cost a fortune to build.


----------



## oldkit (3 Aug 2020)

I was going to mention Derek Cranage, having met him last year and seen this bike, I can't remember if it is electric or not. I don't think that one is.
He is a Lovely bloke to chat with and I was buying one of his previous Bromptons.
He designs and makes a lot of the bits himself.


----------

