# The Creature!



## Night Train (17 Sep 2012)

Having been to the Cycle Magic closure sale, with Arch, with the intention of just saying 'Hello' to old friends I appear to have returned with a trike, in bits! (photos later)

The trike is/was a Stein of some indeterminate age and model though possibly a Road Shark. It has been 'messed about with' and currently has had the seat raised around 2" and the steering bodged to the point of dangerously problematic.

The plan is to reassemble the Stein as it is, but static, and to see what is wrong with it overall and where it can be improved to get the geometry correct. Then it will be mixed and merged with Ratrike to form a 'better' and more usable trike.

There is also the possibility that the resulting 'Creature' will be a little bit electric.

Mary Shelley will be proud!


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## byegad (17 Sep 2012)

A brave buy!

I suspect the mucking about was an attempt to make a silk purse out of a sows ear. However there are Stein enthusiasts around who may be able to help.


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## Night Train (17 Sep 2012)

byegad said:


> A brave buy!
> 
> I suspect the mucking about was an attempt to make a silk purse out of a sows ear. However there are Stein enthusiasts around who may be able to help.


It won't be a Stein for long though and I was only buying for the parts and some frame structure to set up a jig to.
It will be very much along the lines of Baron Victor Frankenstein's creation of the best bits from a rough lot.

Anyway, photos:






The front mudguards were my own addition, I just fancied them on there with a little 'bullet' light on the flat top.





The welding seems to have been done by one of the local pigeons!








As you can see, the steering ball joint goes over centre locking the wheel at a very sharp angle.








The boom is very high, hence the seat having been raised. I will lower the boom and the seating.




You can see the two clamp bolts under the backbone of the frame to make the frame separable. I am not sure if I will keep that as there is a lump of 'gas pipe' inside it that weighs as much as the rest of the trike!

TBH, there may not be much of it reused, the Sachs front wheels and drum brakes, the seat, the boom, the steering headstock assemblies....

I am looking for an eights speed SA hub gear with drum brake to replace the rear wheel and the steering and control levers and gear selection could well be from the Ratrike.


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## byegad (17 Sep 2012)

Interesting. I'll keep an eye on this as you transform it.


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## Night Train (17 Sep 2012)

I have dismantled most of it now. The front wheels would never have worked. There was no spacer between the brake plate and the hub bearing. Both inner hub bearings were loose and almost completely out of the hub.
I also don't like that they are not handed. I wish they were SA hubs, I have a set of handed brake plates.
None of the handle bar and steering assembly is reusable, I might just be able to reuse the steering track rods, maybe.


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## Panter (17 Sep 2012)

Looks an interesting project, good luck!


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## TheDoctor (17 Sep 2012)

Holy crap.
I reckon I could do a better weld than that, after half-an-hour of practice, and I have done no welding ever. That steering setup is indeed a crash waiting to happen.
I don't doubt that you can get something rideable out of that, but I sure-as-hell don't envy your task.
Now, practicalities. Is an 8-speed hub going to have enough range? Or are you planning on keeping a triple up front for a 24-speed hybrid system? You're going to need some means of chain control, as that looks like a vertical rear drop-out...


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## byegad (17 Sep 2012)

+1 that 8 speeds doesn't sound enough.

If you are going to ride it by human power alone I'd suggest 8 speeds are way too few, or rather the range will be too narrow. Even if you live in Norfolk you'll need a reasonable range and elsewhere in fairly rolling country I'd suggest 500% is only a marginally wide enough range. The ranges of gearing on my trikes are QNT 708%, Kettwiesel 630% and Trail 674%. I regard the Kett' with only 630% as slightly over geared in bottom gear and slightly under geared in top. I do ride the QNT up 25% hills and the Trail up 33% hills on occasion and both up 20% hills regularly. The Kett' would not manage anything steeper than 20%, partly due to the too high bottom gear and partly due to front wheel hop, it is single wheel drive. There again the Kettwiesel is my 'into town' Trike while the others go pretty much anywhere.

If you electrify it will the electric be driving the rear wheel? If so will the hub take the strain?


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## TheDoctor (17 Sep 2012)

Or, forget the whole electric thing and just use the engine and back wheel off one of these.





You may want slightly thicker chainstays.


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## HovR (17 Sep 2012)

Night Train said:


> There is also the possibility that the resulting 'Creature' will be a little bit electric.


 
Electric, you say?


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## TheDoctor (17 Sep 2012)

Oh.
My.
FECKIN'
GOD!!!!

That looks absolutey brilliant!!
WANT!


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## Night Train (18 Sep 2012)

HovR said:


> Electric, you say?



Fercrytsake don't show that to Arch! She'd have me tied to the sofa and my workshop dismantled!





byegad said:


> +1 that 8 speeds doesn't sound enough.


I have a rear wheel with a SA drum brake and a 6 speed that I might use.
I was thinking of the SA 8 speed hub being amidships where the guide rollers would go. That would give me the triple chainring, driving the 8 speed, driving the 6 speed.
It all depends on how I decide to set it up.

The common sense approach would be to use the 24 speeds as it comes and keep it very light weight.
Realistically I might just have a SA 8 speed hub gear in the back wheel with the triple at the front.

I am still pondering front wheel drive though but at the same time I am waiting to see if this Berkut gets any cheaper.


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## Arch (18 Sep 2012)

Night Train said:


> Fercrytsake don't show that to Arch! She'd have me tied to the sofa and my workshop dismantled!


 



Seen it!


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## HovR (18 Sep 2012)

Arch said:


> Seen it!


 
Don't worry, it's limited to 15mph. He's pedaling the rest.


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## TheDoctor (18 Sep 2012)

Night Train said:


> I am still pondering front wheel drive though but at the same time I am waiting to see if this Berkut gets any cheaper.


FWD tadpole trike?
I take it all back. There *is* someone in the world madder than NT 
Kudos for making it, but...erm...why?
As if tadpoles didn't have enough in the way of stuff going out to the front wheels, so lets stick some driveshafts in and engineer a teeny-weeny differential!


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## Night Train (18 Sep 2012)

TheDoctor said:


> FWD tadpole trike?
> I take it all back. There *is* someone in the world madder than NT
> Kudos for making it, but...erm...why?
> As if tadpoles didn't have enough in the way of stuff going out to the front wheels, so lets stick some driveshafts in and engineer a teeny-weeny differential!


Actually, I thought it was mad when I was designing one back in '96 with a view to it being three wheel drive.
However, having had a go on Bikepete's Russian trike I am a convert, they are fantastic.

There isn't a diff either, it has freewheels in the hubs, that means no wheel spin unlike with a diff. But if you want a diff you can get a conveniently sized one out of a powered lawn mower....


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## TheDoctor (18 Sep 2012)

Freewheels in the hubs? Interesting.
So, when it turns, the inside wheel is always driven, and the outside one freewheels?
That makes sense. And you don't have to control a chain that runs the entire length of the frame.
That's actually quite clever.


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## Tigerbiten (19 Sep 2012)

TheDoctor said:


> Freewheels in the hubs? Interesting.
> So, when it turns, the inside wheel is always driven, and the outside one freewheels?
> That makes sense. And you don't have to control a chain that runs the entire length of the frame.
> That's actually quite clever.


Better still it leaves the back-wheel free for a motor .........


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## TheDoctor (19 Sep 2012)

Night Train said:


> I have a rear wheel with a SA drum brake and a 6 speed that I might use.
> I was thinking of the SA 8 speed hub being amidships where the guide rollers would go. That would give me the triple chainring, driving the 8 speed, driving the 6 speed.
> It all depends on how I decide to set it up.


A triple driving an 8 speed hub driving a 6 speed block?

That's gross!!


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## byegad (19 Sep 2012)

TheDoctor said:


> A triple driving an 8 speed hub driving a 8 speed block?
> 
> That's gross!!


 
That's only 64 gears. My AZUB-4 had 81. The range was 1000% and you never had a gap in the gearing so you could fine tune your cadence, but it could take some time with three different changers!


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## TheDoctor (19 Sep 2012)

3 times 8 times 6 makes 144.
That's why it's gross...


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## Night Train (19 Sep 2012)

Front wheel drive is still a possibility. Takes a bit of engineering, though, to keep the weight down.


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## byegad (19 Sep 2012)

TheDoctor said:


> 3 times 8 times 6 makes 144.
> That's why it's gross...


 
I missed the triple and thought it said 8 to 8. I plead insanity extreme old age and being blind.


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## Night Train (22 Sep 2012)

OK, I have a plan.

The Creature will be front wheel drive. I am looking at a range of UJs from car steering columns trying to find which are nice machined and balanced ones and are also common and cheap.
I have also designed a new brake back plate concept that produced twin leading shoes for some proper stopping power.

The plan is to avoid having any cables or chain, from front to back, so that the frame can be split after the seat is removed. This will allow easier 'folding' and can keep any parking brake and electric drive components at the back half of the frame and the spinny pedally bits all at the front.


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## Chonker (25 Sep 2012)

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/universal-joints-gaiters/4923957/

Any good? RS have a pretty good selection


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## Night Train (25 Sep 2012)

Chonker said:


> http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/universal-joints-gaiters/4923957/
> 
> Any good? RS have a pretty good selection


Cheers, I had a look at RS but they are a bit small, not strong enough and not got enough working angle before they bind.

I was thinking more like this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/170841692127?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649 or this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/370630651838?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649.

I have figured that I also need a steel flip flop hub to cut up to be able to fit two freewheels into shafts in such a way that the right hand shaft doesn't unscrew itself!
Still need to find a good cheap hub gear to drive them. A SA 8 speed would be good.


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## Chonker (26 Sep 2012)

Wont these freewheels mean you are sending power to the unloaded wheel during cornering? Can you not send the power to just one of the front wheels and save the weight of a freewheel/driveshaft? When I had my trice Q I felt that the weight was distributed pretty evenly between the 3 wheels, it made traction tricky sometimes on loose surfaces but I still managed to get up the mountain bike track at redbridge.


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## starhawk (26 Sep 2012)

If you do it electric you don't need that many gears, I haven't moved the chain from my largest front sprocket since I converted the bike to an e-trike
Who the heck made that weld? I can do it better, and I only had a week-long welding course


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## Night Train (26 Sep 2012)

I want to drive either both front wheels or just the back one. Not keen on asymmetric drive, ie one side wheel.
Having had a go on a Russian trike with a similar front wheel freewheel set up it was fine. Powering the unloading wheel isn't a problem as it will just slip as it unloads sending power to the loaded wheel. It also corners really tightly.

The overall idea is to have the trike split with all the complicated stuff at the front. 

The plan for the first back end is to have it simple with just a parking brake. 
It can then be removed and replaced with an electric rear end with cargo capacity.
The final option is to have a rear driven tandem attachment so the stoker has their (her) own pedals, gears and brake all self contained.

It seemed like a good idea when I found the Stein trike split for transport.

The tandem idea is long standing. Arch and I have talked about it for a while and I figured on a front wheel drive trike where the rear wheel was removed and a sort of Xtra-Cycle type addition is added that has stoker's seat, pedals and wheel.
This gives me the opportunity to get on with it.
I will need some sort of rigid seat frame on the front half to maintain frame rigidity though.


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## Night Train (14 Oct 2012)

I think I have found the UJs and drive shafts.
Universal Joints.
Splined Drive Shafts.

If I get two shafts and cut them I can have two long inner shafts, and two short outer shafts, from each UJ.
The UJ can be machined to carry a 40mm bore bearing as close to the axis of the joint as possible, with a smaller bearing on the shaft between the UJ and the wheel hub. That puts two bearings on the steering assembly for the shaft to run on.


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## Chonker (22 Oct 2012)

That solid driveshaft is going to weigh 0.55kg on it's own! Two of those plus two 0.56kg UJ's and you're at 2.22kg just to transfer drive out to the front wheels. I guess you are saving the length of chain between the front and rear wheels and maybe an idler under the seat but that still seems like a lot.


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## Night Train (22 Oct 2012)

Weight of 'off the shelf' parts is a bit high but it costs money to reduce weight. There is a limit to what I can make in house at the moment but I am open to suggestions for lighter parts.

If I can find lighter UJs and hollow splined shafts within my budget I would be happier.

The trike frame, as it stands, isn't light weight to begin with anyway so that needs to be sorted. Maybe if I am successful with aluminium brazing I can rebuild the whole frame and most of the steel parts.
There may not be much of the original used at all.


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## Hilldodger (22 Oct 2012)

and we thought you were just going to bolt it back together...........


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## Night Train (22 Oct 2012)

Hilldodger said:


> and we thought you were just going to bolt it back together...........


Well, it was quite a bit wrong in the geometry so reassembly wasn't going to make a working trike.

However, when The Creature is finished I will probably still have all the original bits left over.....


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## Black Sheep (22 Oct 2012)

with the drive-shafts and UJ's have you looked at some of the larger RC cars, they come up to 1/8 scale and are pretty powerful things so probably have strong yet light parts in there, that and I believe the gearboxes have some sort of 'freewheel' in there.


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## Night Train (22 Oct 2012)

Black Sheep said:


> with the drive-shafts and UJ's have you looked at some of the larger RC cars, they come up to 1/8 scale and are pretty powerful things so probably have strong yet light parts in there, that and I believe the gearboxes have some sort of 'freewheel' in there.


Do you have any examples?

The ones I have seen are really too small and also don't have needle roller bearings.

I think with the RC ones they will handle very high RPM but not low RPM and high torque.


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## Black Sheep (22 Oct 2012)

needle roller bearings you might struggle for, was thinking from the traxxass range, the T-maxx and also the HPI savage are high powered machines. 

no 1/8 models springing to mind at the moment, I know there are some off road examples as I sold one when I was working in a model shop a couple of years back


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## ufkacbln (22 Oct 2012)

Night Train said:


> Actually, I thought it was mad when I was designing one back in '96 with a view to it being three wheel drive.
> However, having had a go on Bikepete's Russian trike I am a convert, they are fantastic.
> 
> There isn't a diff either, it has freewheels in the hubs, that means no wheel spin unlike with a diff. But if you want a diff you can get a conveniently sized one out of a powered lawn mower....


 
I was going to point you to Velovison's Russian Trike Forum, then remembered that you might just have heard of it through your contacts


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## ufkacbln (22 Oct 2012)

My Hurricane has a mere 42, I feel deprived now!


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## ufkacbln (22 Oct 2012)

I have this image where in a couple of years time, and after all the modifications - the Creature takes pride of place in Velovision, and in the interview Peter asks you what remains of the original trike....



.. and you point out a single bolt


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## jayjay (22 Oct 2012)

The 1/4 scale car market seems to require a large donation to enter:
http://www.wheelspinmodels.co.uk/i/109709/
Or more stock style, but with no sockets:
http://www.wheelspinmodels.co.uk/i/97360/


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## Rickshaw Phil (22 Oct 2012)

jayjay said:


> The 1/4 scale car market seems to require a large donation to enter:
> http://www.wheelspinmodels.co.uk/i/109709/


 Those are pricey but they look like proper constant velocity joints. This would be better than plain universal joints, which aren't ideal for transmitting through a wide range of angles as is common in a front wheel drive set up.

I don't see any technical specs though. Will they cope with the kind of torque a rider can generate?


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## Night Train (22 Oct 2012)

They look good. Need specs or one to test. A bit spendy though but it is for two dog bones and four cups.

The 9mm shafts will twist over the length needed so it will need to be large diameter thin wall tube to extend it. Probably better to have the 'cup' part on the end of the drive shaft tube and the 'dog bone' part on the stub axle.

I might have to have a go at making some.


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## Arch (27 Oct 2012)

Cunobelin said:


> I have this image where in a couple of years time, and after all the modifications - the Creature takes pride of place in Velovision, and in the interview Peter asks you what remains of the original trike....
> 
> 
> 
> .. and you point out a single bolt


 
Yebbut, he'd have modified that bolt as well....


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## Arch (27 Oct 2012)

Hilldodger said:


> and we thought you were just going to bolt it back together...........


 
You don't know NT well enough yet....


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## Iain G (17 Feb 2013)

HovR said:


> Electric, you say?



This is awesome  I wish the German manufacturers of my trike would take the restrictors off my motor as I was told it could be a rapid machine


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