# Lactic what a *****



## Sully (21 Oct 2013)

Hello all, hope your ok 
Please advise me, I'm a 43 Yr old male 5"10 around 12 stone, I'm slowly raising my mileage with my target being the Nottm cycle 100 next Yr which which I'm already paid and entered into, on my ride on Saturday I ran into a problem I've not encountered before, or I'm assuming it was a build up of lactic acid, the pain 36 miles into the ride was honestly terrible, I couldn't get comfortable in the saddle and it was affecting both upper and lower legs, I've heard it referred to as a burning sensation, well I can't really put my finger on it but suffice to say it was bl**dy awful !
anyway I gets home and could hardnt walk, so I sank myself into a cold bath, that helped, my ride was 41 miles with an elevation gained of around 2000 ft, I set off quite quickly but had to crawl home, average was just over 15 mph (Strava) So have I done something wrong ? Was it down to not hydrating enough or eating enough ? I'm concerned as I'm going to ride the 100 miles for charity and failure is not an option, but saying this I couldn't manage to do the remaining 50 miles feeling like I did, your help and advice as always is greatly appreciated, Craig


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## Rob3rt (21 Oct 2013)

shoot happens, forget about it and move on.


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## Sully (21 Oct 2013)

Lol, love it Rob, I take 25 mins to write an essay and it's sorted in 8 words


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## VamP (21 Oct 2013)

Considering that Rob bathes his muscles in lactic several times per ride, I am not really sure what you could reasonably expect? Do it more often and you'll actually come to like the sensation


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## Sully (21 Oct 2013)

Honestly I understand enjoying perhaps a bit of something, I can't think there is a single person who could like what I went through on Saturday which makes me think it wasn't lactic


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## Rob3rt (21 Oct 2013)

Everyone has bad days now and then. I trust this distance wasn't that much further than you usually do?

TBH, I would put it down to an off day unless it repeats itself persistently.


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## snorri (21 Oct 2013)

Sully said:


> I set off quite quickly




I have often cycled more than 36 miles, but have never suffered the pain you describe so might not be qualified to comment, but would suggest that setting off quickly might not have been such a good idea.
100 miles in a day should be attainable at your age, but is it neccessary to cover the distance within a tight timescale? If not, just go for distance and leave your timing device at home until much closer to the target event.


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## Mr Haematocrit (21 Oct 2013)

If it was not a burning sensation, pins and needles type of experience you should question if what you experienced was lactic acid build up and not just an off day.
Continued soreness the following day (Doms) is also an indication of lactic build up.
If this was what you experienced it basically means that you had not fueled yourself correctly so your body was forced to produce energy anaerobically to break glucose down. In effect you did not meet your energy needs.

The best thing you can do to treat lactic acid is to exercise more frequently, the fitter you are the less glucose you will need to use from sources such as fat. This reduces the opportunity for lactic acid build up
Increase and vary the effort of your work out gradually (this is not the same as increasing distance)
Lactic acid is water soluble, if you remain hydrated you will not feel a burn.
Stretch after a ride.

Weight lifting is reknown for lactic build up as at this time your muscles can demand more energy than the body can provide which is where the phrase "can you feel the burn" comes from

Hth


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## steve52 (21 Oct 2013)

i shall answer in 2 words, (Go slower)


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## VamP (21 Oct 2013)

Mr Haematocrit said:


> If it was not a burning sensation, pins and needles type of experience you should question if what you experienced was lactic acid build up and not just an off day.
> Continued soreness the following day (Doms) is also an indication of lactic build up.
> If this was what you experienced it basically means that you had not fueled yourself correctly so your body was forced to produce energy anaerobically to break glucose down. In effect you did not meet your energy needs.
> 
> ...


 
Are you sure?


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## Dusty Bin (21 Oct 2013)

Mr Haematocrit said:


> The best thing you can do to treat lactic acid is to exercise more frequently, the fitter you are the less glucose you will need to use from sources such as fat. This reduces the opportunity for lactic acid build up
> Increase and vary the effort of your work out gradually (this is not the same as increasing distance)
> Lactic acid is water soluble, if you remain hydrated you will not feel a burn.


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## Thomk (21 Oct 2013)

Mr Haematocrit said:


> If it was not a burning sensation, pins and needles type of experience you should question if what you experienced was lactic acid build up and not just an off day.
> Continued soreness the following day (Doms) is also an indication of lactic build up.
> If this was what you experienced it basically means that you had not fueled yourself correctly so your body was forced to produce energy anaerobically to break glucose down. In effect you did not meet your energy needs.
> 
> ...


I don't know where to start with this except to say that you should always be cautious about accepting training advice from someone who talks about lactic acid in the human body.


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## Biker Joe (21 Oct 2013)

It sounds like you just 'bonked'.
Questions to ask yourself:-
Were you fueled up properly before the ride?
Did you take fuel and enough water with you?
Have you been pushing it too hard recently without giving yourself time to recover between rides? (Your body might have been saying," Enough already. I need a break".)

Don't panic! You've still got plenty of time. Take a step back and look at how you're treating yourself.
You've probably just had an off day so consider the questions above. Don't forget about recovery rides and rest periods.
Don't worry. You'll be OK


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## Rob3rt (21 Oct 2013)

Biker Joe said:


> *It sounds like you just 'bonked'.*
> Questions to ask yourself:-
> Were you fueled up properly before the ride?
> Did you take fuel and enough water with you?
> ...



No it doesn't.


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## Fab Foodie (21 Oct 2013)

Mr Haematocrit said:


> The best thing you can do to treat lactic acid is to exercise more frequently, the fitter you are the less glucose you will need to use from sources such as fat.
> 
> Hth


There is no pathway to convert fat to glucose in the human body.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (21 Oct 2013)

Mr H. I thought better of you. Most of that is a load of nonsense


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## Frood42 (21 Oct 2013)

I'm no medical or fitness expert, but it sounds like you just over did it a little, and went a bit too quickly.

I can only suggest that you try and pace yourself, go slower until you are comfortable with the distance, and only then think about how quickly you can go after you are comfortable with the distance.

http://www.bicycling.com/training-nutrition/training-fitness/lactic-acid-101

41 miles at 15mph is not bad, is it a road bike or a different type of bike?

I have recently started doing 30 miles into work on my hybrid in the morning (min 4 days a week, avg 200miles a week commute), my average started at around 12mph and I have gone up to around 13-14mph (depending on the weather), and I will slowly be increasing that speed as I get more used to doing that sort of distance in the morning (05:00am start, I do it before breakfast, so I do it fasted, a steady pace is better for me).

I am looking at an N+1 for the roads so I can have the heavy hybrid as a backup commute bike.


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## Fab Foodie (21 Oct 2013)

Sully said:


> Hello all, hope your ok
> , I set off quite quickly ....


Hi
This in itself may be the answer.  
One thing I've learned as I've gotten older (am 50 now and 90kg) is that it takes much longer to get warmed-up on the bike, that is to get the muscles and the cardio-vascular system working in harmony. If I try and go away with the young whippets I suffer for it in much the same way as you describe (and overall I'm a pretty reasonable ability club cyclist). If you're trying to build mileage and stamina than warming-up becomes very important (as does warming down as you age). You might be right that it was a gradual build-up of lactic acid and that you didn't slow-up enough to properly remove. If it happens again, drop a few gears and gently spin-along until you recover. It's much the same effect if you hammer-over a steep climb.

Time-wise take at least the first 15 to 20 minutes (5 miles) of the ride gently, low gear and spin-away, gradually increasing the effort as your body acclimatises, same for the last 5 miles too before you stop.
As long as you keep eating and drinking you'll be fine.
Bear in mind that as the weatehr gets colder, getting warmed-up before hard effort becomes even more crucial.


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## Fab Foodie (21 Oct 2013)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Mr H. I thought better of you. Most of that is a load of nonsense


Agreed.


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## Sittingduck (21 Oct 2013)

Something doesn't sound quite right about this, to me at least.

OP - did you experience any heartburn-like sensation before you were struck down with this pain? Were you pushing a lot, just before it hit you or climbing a hill quite hard or something?


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## ColinJ (21 Oct 2013)

Are you sure it wasn't muscle cramps? They can come on quickly and be horribly painful.


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## michaelcycle (21 Oct 2013)

ColinJ said:


> Are you sure it wasn't muscle cramps? They can come on quickly and be horribly painful.



Fatigue + electrolyte deficiency = likely.


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## michaelcycle (21 Oct 2013)

ps: see here if you want to make your own homemade sports drinks in the future to help with this issue if it reoccurs:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/health_and_fitness/4289704.stm


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## Frood42 (21 Oct 2013)

michaelcycle said:


> ps: see here if you want to make your own homemade sports drinks in the future to help with this issue if it reoccurs:
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/health_and_fitness/4289704.stm


 

I don't mind the High 5 electrolyte tabs
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/high5-zero-electrolyte-drink-20-tabs/

A bottle of plain old water, and a bottle with one of these tabs in does me fine over 30 miles or more.


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## Born2die (21 Oct 2013)

http://thefitnessgrail.wordpress.com/2012/04/01/lactic-acid-training-for-fat-loss/

http://adventure.howstuffworks.com/...nning/training/lactate-threshold-training.htm

Have fun and love the burn. Ok cheesy time ' if it isn't hurting you it isn't changing you ,or see rule #5


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## ayceejay (21 Oct 2013)

It is hard to say from so little information but it is possible that you went out too fast. I also note that the discomfort was limited to the muscles in your legs so, as you had been in the saddle more than two hours when the pain started it is likely to be a blood circulation problem. Perhaps a stop to stretch halfway might help. Remember too that the passage between heart and legs is restricted in a cycling position so even standing up on the pedals briefly could help. When you get home massage will also help and if you want to be experimental try some compression tights.


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## Sully (21 Oct 2013)

Hi all, thanks so much for your interest, I really appreciate it, it did feel kind of like a very nasty cramp, a scary feeling of agony I've never had before and don't want again, I couldn't rid myself at all, I was out of my saddle, you'd never believe the positions I was getting into to alleviate the pain, just call me sting ! I slowed considerably and just kept spinning in the granny, I have to be honest at this point, please don't fall out with me as I know it was stupid but I didn't take anywhere near enough liquid with me, see I'd only planned on doing half that mileage and as it was such a nice day I got a little carried away, I've been told by someone in the know however that lactic acid buildup is not due to dehydration, this was my furthest ride to date as I'm generally up- to 30-35 miles, no feeling of illness or upper body pain at all, hang on, could this be something more sinister ?


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## Crackle (21 Oct 2013)

By itself it doesn't sound sinister, sinister normally has other symptoms too which you might be experiencing elsewhere and if you aren't then it's probably a one-off, maybe muscles decided to cramp up for some reason, maybe the cold, maybe, maybe, maybe, lots of maybe's.

Odd rides happen. I got cold last week and ended up grovelling home, like I was at the end of a 100 miles instead of 30.


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## Sully (21 Oct 2013)

Thanks for your advice Crackle


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## Fab Foodie (21 Oct 2013)

Sully said:


> Thanks for your advice Crackle


Crackle (as usual) speaks sense!

When I started Time-Trialing some 10 years or so ago, I used to go like a bullet out of a gun, sometimes I'd make it around the 10 miler other times I'd collapse part way round with intense cramp (or at the finish once in utter agony). I was simply not fit enough for the effort I was trying to do and often not properly warmed-up either. I got fitter and better and cramped less.
I'd agree with Crackle in that if you have no other symptoms, chances are you were just pushing a bit hard, or your legs may have been colder due to the weather change. It's winter, get in good solid miles and take care of yourself ... then go mental in the spring!
Regarding water, the effects of 'dehydration' are often (but not always) exaggerated on these pages, but it doesn't hurt on any ride to have a drink with you, or an emergency quid to buy a can of coke. Free water can be blagged at many places.

And finally, you do get crap days on the bike. Mid summer I did a lumpy 150 miler on a stonking hot day in good style, a few weeks back in more clement weather I did the 100 mile shorter version round similar terrain and by half way was completely shot. I'd walked 3 hills whereas on the 150 miler I'd ridden them all. I stopped at a pub to call the Mrs to come and get me, though I had a pint of coke and a bag of crisps with my mates before I did so. Amazingly, it was just the tonic! as we approached the 100, I was getting quicker as others struggled. You never know how you'll go on a bike until you get out there.


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## Sully (21 Oct 2013)

FF brilliantly put, thank you for taking the time, I really appreciate it, I suppose it's a case of getting in the saddle and "learning" I will definitely show more restraint with regards to pacing myself, looking forward to a very steady recovery ride


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## Sully (21 Oct 2013)

Hi all, I've sat watching corro tonight and suddenly it hit me, a sensation I've had a little throughout the day, a strange ache in the outside of my left calf come ankle, I dont know why but I felt a need to press my left bum cheek (know what this may sound like) and kind of knead it with my knuckle, there's a strange sensation I've not had before and after a little research on the net it's led me to think it could be Sciatica, could this be the reason both my legs locked up so painfully on Saturday ? Sorry about the 100's of questions but it's a process of elimination, Craig.


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## Born2die (21 Oct 2013)

Ok I will chip in some advice I was given if your quads or hams are tight stand up and roll a tennis ball under your foot up down and left right 2/3 mins each foot it eases the tension in your muscles it's also great for lower back problems try it 2/3 times a day


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## RedRider (21 Oct 2013)

Sully said:


> Hi all, I've sat watching corro tonight and suddenly it hit me, a sensation I've had a little throughout the day, a strange ache in the outside of my left calf come ankle, I dont know why but I felt a need to press my left bum cheek (know what this may sound like) and kind of knead it with my knuckle, there's a strange sensation I've not had before and after a little research on the net it's led me to think it could be Sciatica, could this be the reason both my legs locked up so painfully on Saturday ? Sorry about the 100's of questions but it's a process of elimination, Craig.


That does sound a little like sciatica. The sciatic nerve goes through your buttock and down to your tootsies. You can experience numbness too. Best thing is to get it checked out.


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## ayceejay (21 Oct 2013)

check out Iliotibial Band Syndrome while you are on the net to see if the symptoms described are the same as yours. As is often the case the cause of the problem may not be in the same place as the pain.


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## Sully (21 Oct 2013)

Hi RR and ACJ I suffered terribly with IBS and it's what stopped me running and why I took up cycling, I'm happy to say it's not ITBS, no discorfort at all in the knee


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## Sully (21 Oct 2013)

Excellent BTD I'm gonna go and have a look in the garage for a ball


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## Born2die (22 Oct 2013)

Sully said:


> Excellent BTD I'm gonna go and have a look in the garage for a ball


No worries it really helps my back and legs after legs day


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## ayceejay (22 Oct 2013)

Sully said:


> Hi RR and ACJ I suffered terribly with IBS and it's what stopped me running and why I took up cycling, I'm happy to say it's not ITBS, no discorfort at all in the knee


As you have had ITBS before you know the symptoms just be aware that the Iliotibial Band goes all the way down to the shin so this may be a re-occurence, just in a different spot. I am not wishing this on you but as it is another one of those injuries related to over-use and you may be prone to a problem in this area.


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## Sully (22 Oct 2013)

ayceejay said:


> As you have had ITBS before you know the symptoms just be aware that the Iliotibial Band goes all the way down to the shin so this may be a re-occurence, just in a different spot. I am not wishing this on you but as it is another one of those injuries related to over-use and you may be prone to a problem in this area.


That's a great point oh bugga, it's kind of into my calf and down toward and between my ankle bone and my Achilles very sore today to the point were it's making movement difficult, gutted !


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## IanG1 (22 Oct 2013)

Can't help with your problem but just to say I did the great Notts 50 last year (it turned out a wet and cold day and my final 10 miles were very hard) and hope to step up to the 100 this year but haven't yet took the final plunge and entered. It's a well organised and fun ride and takes in some nice quiet roads. If you are anywhere local and fancy hooking up for a few training rides a bit nearer the time then just shout.


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## Sully (22 Oct 2013)

Hi Ian, that's a lovely thought and thanks for the heads up, I'm in Ilkeston in assuming your Nottingham ?


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## IanG1 (23 Oct 2013)

Not too far then, Long Eaton so easy to meet half way LOL


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## Shut Up Legs (23 Oct 2013)

Just thought I'd throw these in .
Summary:

Next-day post-ride soreness is from muscle damage and/or inflammation (perfectly normal for strenuous exercise), not lactate.
Our bodies produce lactate, not lactic acid.
The burning sensation, when you've had a brief break during a ride, and then resume riding, is our nervous system sensing increasing acidity from the accumulated lactate.

http://www.bicycling.com/training-nutrition/training-fitness/lactic-acid-101

http://running.competitor.com/2010/01/training/the-lactic-acid-myths_7938

http://www.indoorcyclingassociation.com/blog/the-myth-of-lactic-acid-refuses-to-go-away/

Feel free to refute any of the above, I'm just going by the above articles, and certainly don't claim to be an exercise expert . I can say that you get used to the burning sensation - I've had it more or less constantly for years now, but then my daily round-trip commute is 37.6 miles with about 3000 feet of climbing, and has been for 3 years.


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## Sully (23 Oct 2013)

Hi all, hope your all well, right where to start, not sure at all that this is all relevant but here goes, so as you know whilst riding u could hardly move for the last few miles, Sunday wasn't bad at all, then I started feeling feelings of sciatica, pain in the outside of my left ankle and calf, this hasn't abated and if anything has slightly worsened, I however have 2 other very sore spots, they're in my left buttock, I believe I may have infllmation of the piriformus, I've used a tennis ball to give a deep massage so to hopefully release a bit of pressure, I think perhaps I'll give it til early next week and if there's no improvement I'll find a decent Chiropractor as "my lady" Ann has recently retired  I've had history when I ran of my pelvis dropping, and I'm starting to think that May have reoccurred, fed up and peed off !


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## Berties (23 Oct 2013)

I experienced pain similar to this 14 years ago,as part of a team from my local gym completed the three peaks event in sub 19 hours problem was I had a lung infection and felt like death the whole way ,damp conditions ,blowing like a asthmatic pig ,the pain in my legs as I lay in a B and B in llanberis at the end was shocking,even turned down a sports massage!


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## Sully (23 Oct 2013)

Berties said:


> I experienced pain similar to this 14 years ago,as part of a team from my local gym completed the three peaks event in sub 19 hours problem was I had a lung infection and felt like death the whole way ,damp conditions ,blowing like a asthmatic pig ,the pain in my legs as I lay in a B and B in llanberis at the end was shocking,even turned down a sports massage!


Yes it was awful, I pity you having to go through that as it crossed my mind "what if it would have struck me when I do the cycle Nottm 100 for charity, I cannot fail, I've put my heart and sole into completing it, failure for me on this isn't an option and yet du know, I have a feeling I'm setting myself up for a big fail, did you have any longer term issues or fine after you'd re-stocked ?


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## Crankarm (24 Oct 2013)

It might be worth seeing your doctor who after all is medically qualified as opposed to keyboard doctors on here.

I think you are just not quite as fit as you have thought. If you don't ride many miles REGULARLY you will find longer distances challenging. Have you ever thought of pacing yourself? Story of the tortoise and the hare?

You should massage your leg muscles for relief especially calf and Achilles before and after riding. Don't bite off more than your are capable of doing. Know your limits.


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## Shut Up Legs (24 Oct 2013)

Crankarm said:


> It might be worth seeing your doctor who after all is medically qualified as opposed to keyboard doctors on here.
> 
> I think you are just not quite as fit as you have thought. If you don't ride many miles REGULARLY you will find longer distances challenging. Have you ever thought of pacing yourself? Story of the tortoise and the hare?
> 
> You should massage your leg muscles for relief especially calf and Achilles before and after riding. Don't bite off more than your are capable of doing. Know your limits.


I'm not sure who the "keyboard doctors" comment was directed at, but I agree with that comment (and the others you made in the quoted post above), provided any doctor that Sully consults actually knows what he/she is talking about. Not all GPs are qualified to give advice on sports related medical issues.


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## ayceejay (24 Oct 2013)

In general I think people who post here are more intelligent than to expect a cure for their cycling related injury from other cyclists. What they get, and expect is advice to seek professional treatment and *suggestions* from the experience of others suggestions like "_You should massage your leg muscles for relief especially calf and Achilles before and after riding_." I don't think this comes from anyone considering themselves to be a doctor but just a willingness to help and the OP can choice to follow any or none of it.


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## ayceejay (24 Oct 2013)

'Choose' even.


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## Sully (25 Oct 2013)

Hi all, your quite correct, my post was purely about asking for advice, and I appreciate every bit of advice I get, with regards to the comment
"I think you are just not quite as fit as you have thought. If you don't ride many miles REGULARLY you will find longer distances challenging. Have you ever thought of pacing yourself? Story of the tortoise and the hare?, 
again I totally agree, but I have regularly been riding 20-30 miles both on and off road, and yes I agree on the aforementioned day I didn't expect to ride the extra mileage but hey ho, I'm a man and we can be quite impulsive, Ive booked myself in to see a chiropractor tomorrow, so we'll see what he has to say


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## Dusty Bin (25 Oct 2013)

Sully said:


> Ive booked myself in to see a chiropractor tomorrow, so we'll see what he has to say



Chiropractor will probably be about as much use as a tarot reader. Why not see a physio instead?


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## VamP (25 Oct 2013)

Dusty Bin said:


> Chiropractor will probably be about as much use as a tarot reader. Why not see a physio instead?


 
I think tarot reader would be better value probably.


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## vickster (25 Oct 2013)

Don't chiros deal with the bony parts rather than the muscly parts. Agree a sports physio better for soft tissue stuff. I'd save your money on the chiro


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## VamP (25 Oct 2013)

Chiros deal with the made up parts...


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## Sully (25 Oct 2013)

I'm under the impression that muscular is secondary stemming from a skeletal mislinment (not sure on spelling) anyway we'll soon see, I've been in a similar situation before, spent a small fortune in physio's and osteopaths when I was running, ITBS some professional concluded whilst sticking electrodes to my bum cheeks, 45 mins of pins and needles in my ass and I hand over £50 thanks see you next Thursday ! Eventually having not seen any real improvement I goes to see a chiropractor, all this papering over the cracks, when my hip had dropped making my left leg half inch longer than right, course everything was out of shape which manifested itself with pain around the it band in the knee, didn't look back ! So I'll start this way as I've a sneaking feeling my bodies out of kilter.


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## Sully (30 Oct 2013)

Dusty Bin said:


> Chiropractor will probably be about as much use as a tarot reader. Why not see a physio instead?


Hi all, quick heads up, my issue was, we believe caused due to my pelvis dropping and trapping a nerve (Chiropractor didn't quite refer to it this way but it's how I understand it to be) thus causing discomfort and very strange pain in my thighs, calf and ankle, whilst riding muscles, ligaments tendons etc become fatigued and that's the time apparently your most susceptible to this kind of injury, not sure if physio's deal with the bone structure or not but I was under the impression they are specialists in muscles, ligaments, tendons etc, in which case a physio wouldn't have helped, Ive still got a touch of discomfort but getting better by the day, thats all for your interest and advice


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