# Texting on a horse!



## Bicycle (15 Jan 2012)

I saw a new thing yesterday.

In the Hereforsdshire lanes, two girls were out on horses. I was pootling in a family car, having dropped a boy off at an activity.

Two girls on horses were almost stationary and two-abreast ahead of me. I slowed, then almost stopped and rolled along a distance behind them, thinking they'd hear the diesel burbling away.

There was room to pass a single rider, but not two. Nothing. 

Eventually, one saw me and they got in line. The one who hadn't see me was..... TEXTING.

I dropped a window and said that although I loved to see horses out on the roads there are those who don't and that texting while riding might annoy drivers who are anti-horse. I got a smile and a thank you, which was nice.

I took my younger boy to a local stable later that day and saw... the same two girls coming back from their hack. Ooops! I was in a different car, but I think I was spotted.

But really... Texting while riding a horse in dangerous country lanes!

Is this a first?


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## MontyVeda (15 Jan 2012)

well i never... Harrumph! ... they should be banned from riding.


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## oldroadman (15 Jan 2012)

Nobody should be texting whilst in "control" of a vehical or animal (even less "control") out on the road. Simply potty, can't they leave their phones alone for a SECOND?
What you experienced was the removal of attention from their surroundings, imagine the effect on others when the "driver" of a 44 tonne truck does the same, never mind someone in their Corsa/Mini/(insert any car here).


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## theclaud (15 Jan 2012)

Wot Adrian said. But Bicycle gets rattled by companionable riding, as we know...


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## coffeejo (15 Jan 2012)

It only takes a split second for something to happen - or for something to happen and you only have a split second to react appropriately. The girl's horse could have shied at something in the hedge and she could have been dumped on the tarmac. Or her horse could have bolted off ... or a whole host of other scenarios.

Everyone who uses the roads has, IMHO, a duty of care to other road users and should act in a responsible and appropriate manner, and that includes leaving the phone well alone.


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## MissTillyFlop (15 Jan 2012)

She should talk to Mister Horsey.

I tried texting on a horse once. But the reception was rubbish.


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## BigonaBianchi (15 Jan 2012)

so what if drivers get upset by horses..let the drivers wait...a few seconds of their life is worth it for the safty of the riders and horses. Its this same view that gets so many cyclists injured each year. Cars can wait IMO.


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## Dave 123 (15 Jan 2012)

Do horses pay road tax?


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## fenlandpsychocyclist (15 Jan 2012)

BigonaBianchi said:


> so what if drivers get upset by horses..let the drivers wait...a few seconds of their life is worth it for the safty of the riders and horses. Its this same view that gets so many cyclists injured each year. Cars can wait IMO.


 
To right .... i see far too many school run mums overtake me at the very last second and then brake for traffic lights. Duh!!


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## BigonaBianchi (15 Jan 2012)

Dave 123 said:


> Do horses pay road tax?


 
who cares...there riders probably do...and even if they dont that doesnt give a car driver the right to risk their lives jus tbecause they are to bloody lazy or impatiant to wait 10 secons.


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## jim55 (15 Jan 2012)

Dave 123 said:


> Do horses pay road tax?


nobody does
,,and im serious


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## Bicycle (15 Jan 2012)

Well that told me - and probably quite rightly too. 

Most of the comments were directly (or by implication) supportive of the texting, two-abreast equestrian and critical of me.

I can't post something on this forum and then grumble about the response. It's all fair comment and is taken on board.

I should add that as a countrydweller some of whose family ride in these lanes, I am quite happy to see horses on the road. I see them often while driving and when cycling - and have cycled past my own family members out for a hack. I happen not to ride horses, but I have no issue with them. 

My issue was with the discourteous behaviour of the outer rider, who was texting and moving at sub-walk speed in a narrow lane, oblivious to approaching traffic. I posted about it because I'd never seen anything like it. I found it remarkable.

I wasn't in a hurry and I did wait. Honking or revving the engine weren't an option, because these things can upset horses and riders. I just waited a reasonable distance behind the riders with the diesel burbling away. Once past, I spoke to the riders and they took my words in good part and with a smile. No rage, no-one was rattled. I didn't pass (slowly) until we'd had eye contact, one horse had moved over and I was able to go by at tickover in second gear, as I always do with horses.

On the (jokey?) point about a horse being able to 'keep an eye on stuff' - this was unusual. Even horses quite accustomed to being around traffic cannot safely be left to make their own 'decisions'. I think I see the distinction that was being drawn between living creatures and machines. However, by paying no attention to the road, the rider was putting herself and others at risk. No equestrian would condone riding a horse on public roads while not paying full attention to the traffic and not in control of the beast. 

Nonetheless, I cannot argue (for long) with a majority verdict. I am fairly judged an impatient road user who objects to being held up for ten seconds while out driving and is rattled by companionable riding. Drat!! I am uncovered! 

I pay road tax.


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## ColinJ (15 Jan 2012)

Some people are just addicted to texting (messaging/tweeting/liking/emailing/whatever). 

My niece has better comms links than GCHQ - I've watched her juggling 2 mobiles (one for calls, one for texts), a cordless landline phone, twitter, facebook, MS Messenger and email, all at the same time.

She has a 3,000 texts a month contract and often gets through that by about the 20th of the month! 150 texts a day - they are _slaves_ to their mobiles! She actually admitted it to me the last time I saw her. She said she would risk total isolation and exclusion from her peer group if she switched her phones off for more than a few minutes but wishes that she could. 

When I was at university, I would write 4 or 5 page letters to my friends and family a couple of times a month. Nowadays, young people seem to send a one word text, or a one line text every couple of minutes - very much quantity rather than quality. The technology is amazing, but so much of what is done with it is pretty sad. *Such as texting while you are riding a horse in the countryside!  *


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## jim55 (15 Jan 2012)

Bicycle said:


> I pay road tax.


 
no you dont!!! its vehicle excise duty you pay (if you drive ),,id expect a cyckist to know this!!!


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## jim55 (15 Jan 2012)

or even a cyclist hahahahah


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## DiddlyDodds (15 Jan 2012)

jim55 said:


> no you dont!!! its vehicle excise duty you pay (if you drive ),,id expect a cyckist to know this!!!


 
Why do you only have to play it if your on a road then ... you don't have to pay if its on private land, you do a thousand miles a week as long as its not on road , so you can use all the fancy dandy talk you want but if you want to use a vehicle on the road you have to pay tax.
The fact that out of 3 billion raised in vehicle tax only a fraction gets spent on roads and the majority goes into Government coffers is by the by


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## DiddlyDodds (15 Jan 2012)

Bicycle said:


> I pay road tax.


 

Might have a tax holiday next month i am sure the tax people will be understanding.

And this time it is the Governments faut


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## ColinJ (15 Jan 2012)

Oh, and I've seen cyclists and motorists texting in traffic which I think is absolutely crazy!

If you a want a _'throw something at the screen'_ moment, take a look at _this_ idiot ...


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## DiddlyDodds (15 Jan 2012)

MissTillyFlop said:


> I tried texting on a horse once. But the reception was rubbish.


 

Took me about ten minutes to get this hahah ,, slight dim wit here Duh


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## fenlandpsychocyclist (15 Jan 2012)

I think horse people should stuff a coke can or something up the horses bum!
A couple of times recently i've been on night rides and have crashed through some horse droppings ... ok, i've got mudguards, but
some of it still sticks on the bike.


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## jim55 (15 Jan 2012)

there is no such thing as "road tax"


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## Bicycle (15 Jan 2012)

1681802 said:


> It was your "annoy drivers who might be anti horse" that stuck out for me. It goes with the red light jumping cyclists getting us all a bad name bollocks we frequently see. When there are more people like me, ashamed to admit the possession of a driving licence because of the routine casual bad behaviour of the overwhelming majority of car drivers, then I might pay it some mind.


 
I understand that. On reflection I see my gaffe. My post (and what I said to the texting equestrian) was poorly worded. I had meant to say (or imply) that whilst I was supportive of horses being ridden on the highway, someone who was not so minded might feel inclined to use the matter of a texting rider as a stick to beat all riders with. I didn't want to suggest that I tar all with one brush or think it makes sense to do so. 

Off topic but in response to your final sentence, I disagree. As a driver, a cyclist and the father of cycling children, I do not see routine, casual bad behaviour in the vast majority of drivers I see on the road. Nor equestrians, nor cyclists. Most people in all three groups are courteous, skilled and law-abiding. I passed comment on an exception to what I perceive to be the norm.

I still completely accept the majority verdict on this thread that I am impatient and intolerant of others.

The _'I pay road tax'_ comment in my last post was a joke. A bad one.


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## youngoldbloke (15 Jan 2012)

Just a thought .... given that the rate of VED is dependent on _emissions_, maybe horses should be registered .......


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## Bicycle (15 Jan 2012)

youngoldbloke said:


> Just a thought .... given that the rate of VED is dependent on _emissions_, maybe horses should be registered .......


 
That's just crap!


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## Muddyfox (15 Jan 2012)

fenlandpsychocyclist said:


> I think horse people should stuff a coke can or something up the horses bum!
> A couple of times recently i've been on night rides and have crashed through some horse droppings ... ok, i've got mudguards, but
> some of it still sticks on the bike.


 
You should pay more attention to the road ahead ! were you texting at the time 

Or buy yourself some decent lights


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## fenlandpsychocyclist (15 Jan 2012)

Muddyfox said:


> You should pay more attention to the road ahead ! were you texting at the time
> Or buy yourself some decent lights


 
I spend too much time looking sideways when i'm out on the fens, especially on my usual 30 miler route.


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## Aperitif (15 Jan 2012)

You can text from a horse using the latest Pony Ericsson...


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## phil_hg_uk (15 Jan 2012)

Aperitif said:


> You can text from a horse using the latest Pony Ericsson...


 
Dont you mean Pony Equestrian


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## Dave 123 (15 Jan 2012)

Does a horse need a TV licence?


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## brokenflipflop (15 Jan 2012)

Horses - Fields and bridleways only
Road Bikes - Roads (only if they have a driving licence and pay Vehicle Excise Duty)
Vehicles - Roads
4X4 vehicles - Roads, fields and off-road

Simples


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## brokenflipflop (15 Jan 2012)

Don't trust horses or the silly young girls riding them - can't believe they're allowed on the road.


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## brokenflipflop (15 Jan 2012)

Cars are predictable and sometimes are driven by unpredictable drivers.

Horses are huge and dangerous and have a mind of their own. They are quite often ridden by kids. If I've got to pass a test to drive a vehicle that must also have VED and a valid MOT, what tests/safeguards does a kid have on a 1 tonne beast. It almost beggars belief really.


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## col (15 Jan 2012)

Do they have insurance?


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## brokenflipflop (15 Jan 2012)

1682370 said:


> That's why you pass them slow and wide.


 
Oh yeah. Silly me. What if there's a traffic jam tother side? What if the horse has a Christopher Reeve episode and goes berserk - it's a dumb animal ridden by a kid going slow and giving it a wide birth might not necessarily make any difference to a disaster.


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## fenlandpsychocyclist (15 Jan 2012)

I don't recall having ever startled a horse whilst passing in a car, but i've had a couple jump while i've cycled past.
They get used to the gradual increase of noise level and then a big metal box appearing beside them ... cycles are
just suddenly there.

How many stables have rattly diesel 4x4's moving around on a daily basis which the horses get used to?


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## brokenflipflop (15 Jan 2012)

Thanks for that. FYI when I'm waiting I normally use the time to think that I can't believe the authorities allow that huge unpredictable beast with that kid on its back onto the road. I often wonder if there has been any formal training/taxes etc and what would happen if the horse went berserk.


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## brokenflipflop (15 Jan 2012)

fenlandpsychocyclist said:


> I don't recall having ever startled a horse whilst passing in a car, but i've had a couple jump while i've cycled past.
> They get used to the gradual increase of noise level and then a big metal box appearing beside them ... cycles are
> just suddenly there.
> 
> How many stables have rattly diesel 4x4's moving around on a daily basis which the horses get used to?


About 20 years ago I worked with a bloke who was almost totally deaf, had poor vision and minor brain damage as a result of a horse jumping onto his bonnet/windscreen - it only has to happen once doesn't it.


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## coffeejo (15 Jan 2012)

fenlandpsychocyclist said:


> I don't recall having ever startled a horse whilst passing in a car, but i've had a couple jump while i've cycled past.
> They get used to the gradual increase of noise level and then a big metal box appearing beside them ... cycles are
> just suddenly there.
> 
> How many stables have rattly diesel 4x4's moving around on a daily basis which the horses get used to?


I grew up on a farm in west Wales and the RAF used one of our barns as a "target" on their training flights. I had a series of insane ponies as a kid but thanks to the RAF, they were all totally bombproof. A hee-hawing donkey = perfect excuse for an equine panic attack but a thundering lorry, no problem. 

When cycling past horses, I always slow down and ask the rider if it's ok for me to pass (sometimes the rider likes to turn the horse to face the bikes so it can have a proper look at what's happening) and I keep talking as I'm going past so the horse knows that this strange creature is actually just a strange human.


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## fenlandpsychocyclist (15 Jan 2012)

I wonder if horses are like me?
Do they get restless and twitchy if they are followed a bit too long by a car?

At least we can turn our heads to see whats going on when followed, a horse on the other hand may suddenly
think "f*ck it ... i'm turning round now to see whats behind me". 
And that's the point 14 year old emily finds she no longer has control of her horse.

They should ban horses and issue giraffes ... at least they can have a good old look round!!

(Sorry if my humour has offended anyone without a sense of humour).


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## Bicycle (15 Jan 2012)

coffeejo said:


> ...and I keep talking as I'm going past so the horse knows that this strange creature is actually just a strange human.


 
I always slow right down (even stop _in extremis_) and I never pass until eye contact has been made in a clear way.

Even if to the angry poster or the anti-car element my OP seemed to demonstrate some problem with patience, I do like the idea of horses on our roads and I appreciate the fact that they pretty much owned them until around a century ago. Cars and bicycles are the newcomers in this matter.

Most (horse) riders signal that it's OK to pass; and signal not to if the beast is spooked.

I often cycle past horses and I've never thought before of talking as I pass. I like the idea more the more I think about it.

Sometimes I'm too puffed-out to say much, but when I can I will. Thanks for passing on the idea.


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## brokenflipflop (15 Jan 2012)

fenlandpsychocyclist said:


> I wonder if horses are like me?
> Do they get restless and twitchy if they are followed a bit too long by a car?
> 
> At least we can turn our heads to see whats going on when followed, a horse on the other hand may suddenly
> ...


I've seen plenty of horse races where a supposedly trained horse with an experienced jockey on its back has done something completely unpredictable - 15 year old tabitha sitting on rufus with cars, cyclists and dogs buzzing about is asking for trouble. Also, if I take a leak in a dark alley early one morning, I could face a fixed penalty. How come a horse can release 2 kilos of crap in the middle of the road in broad daylight ?


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## col (15 Jan 2012)

I always slow and even stop, where I go there can be 20 plus in a convoy. Some of my colleagues have had their vehicle kicked by the horses as they pass, but they shot off before exchanging details.


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## brokenflipflop (15 Jan 2012)

Bicycle said:


> I always slow right down (even stop _in extremis_) and I never pass until eye contact has been made in a clear way.
> 
> Even if to the angry poster or the anti-car element my OP seemed to demonstrate some problem with patience, I do like the idea of horses on our roads and I appreciate the fact that they pretty much owned them until around a century ago. Cars and bicycles are the newcomers in this matter.
> 
> ...


What if you pass a horse that doesn't like talking ?


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## col (15 Jan 2012)

brokenflipflop said:


> What if you pass a horse that doesn't like talking ?


 It will just ignore you then wont it?


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## Bicycle (15 Jan 2012)

brokenflipflop said:


> What if you pass a horse that doesn't like talking ?


 

Then I'd whisper. That always works. There was a film about it.


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## brokenflipflop (15 Jan 2012)

1682445 said:


> That's awful, almost beyond belief in fact. Now in the intervening 20 years, how many people have been similarly injured by cars?


Have you already anticipated that I might say that there are a lot more vehicles than horses on the roads and they might be performing more important roles than stretching Rufus's legs and entertaining Tabitha.


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## brokenflipflop (15 Jan 2012)

col said:


> It will just ignore you then wont it?


Or kick you off your pushbike and throw Tabitha off.


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## brokenflipflop (15 Jan 2012)

You know the rules Adrian - no bad language and that includes using "*". I took a ban for the team and I don't want a great guy like you to suffer the same fate.

I think even if you only count the number of vehicles taking people to work, people who work out of their vehicles like me and all the emergency vehicles, it would still greatly outweigh the Tabitha's of the country who could quite easily trot around a field instead.


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## Norm (15 Jan 2012)

You know, brokenflipflop, much as I enjoy the perverse irony in someone with a Q7 berating a horse rider for being called Tabitha, if you took any one of your posts on this thread and replaced horse with bike, you might get a different perspective.


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## brokenflipflop (15 Jan 2012)

Norm said:


> You know, brokenflipflop, much as I enjoy the perverse irony in someone with a Q7 berating a horse rider for being called Tabitha, if you took any one of your posts on this thread and replaced horse with bike, you might get a different perspective.


I don't know what you mean. It's the unpredictability of a large beast and its young rider with no training/insurance etc that is my issue. A bicycle isn't a horse and like a vehicle it's just the driver/cyclist that may be the problem and a horse is potentially more dangerous due to its size than a pushbike is. Apologies if you mean something else and I didn't realise.


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## brokenflipflop (15 Jan 2012)

1682483 said:


> You really don't get it do you? People using out roads for the purpose of leisure is important. The end product of your way is culturally sterile.


I am culturally infertile but on the other hand I'm very health and safety conscious and horses on roads being ridden by kids is dangerous in my opinion.


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## MissTillyFlop (15 Jan 2012)

We still on this?!

Why are we blaming the horse here? I though it was miss on the horse texting, not Mr Ed banging out some shoutouts to the equine massive on BBM.


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## brokenflipflop (15 Jan 2012)

1682493 said:


> OK, as you've gone all coy on that one I'll look it up for myself. 294g/km, so 2kg in less than 8km.


I can't slip on what comes out of my Q7 AND I've heard that scientists have said the overdue ice age has been held off due to carbon emissions so it seems I am helping the human race while the horse is just creating a pooh obstacle for cyclists.


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## brokenflipflop (15 Jan 2012)

1682496 said:


> Not if you leave them enough space.


That could mean a detour down a different lane then.


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## brokenflipflop (15 Jan 2012)

MissTillyFlop said:


> We still on this?!
> 
> Why are we blaming the horse here? I though it was miss on the horse texting, not Mr Ed banging out some shoutouts to the equine massive on BBM.


I'm not blaming the horse, the horse should be in a field....with miss texting.


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## brokenflipflop (15 Jan 2012)

1682508 said:


> Or just wait behind.


and get pooh on my bonnet/in my tyres or worse, a Christopher Reeve incident. I'm thinking that as far as the horse is concerned, it wouldn't matter if it was ridden in a field or a bridleway so I can only assume they take them on the roads because the riders get a buzz from the attention/audience they get from the motoring and general public "look at me on my horse etc etc"


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## MissTillyFlop (15 Jan 2012)

Well, I'm personally against keeping horses as a pet/investment, so I'm good with it on the basis of cruelty.

But in terms of safety, she's probably had more training than most cyclists and those holding a CBT certificate. What's scary is that she's had the training and is still out there texting.

I assume she'd do the same regardless of what vehicle she was in charge of at the time, which frankly terrifies me. I had a very close pass last week by a young lady "doing her eyebrows" whilst driving.

Can we not just ban teenagers?


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## theclaud (15 Jan 2012)

brokenflipflop said:


> You know the rules Adrian - no bad language and that includes using "*". I took a ban for the team and I don't want a great guy like you to suffer the same fate.


 
"4x4" is bad language? I thought it was rather good. [Edited]


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## MissTillyFlop (15 Jan 2012)

1682523 said:


> I can see that this might come as a surprise to you but not everyone chooses their mode of transport on a "look at me" basis.



Even if she had, doing so on a country lane renders the whole showing off aspect spectacularly pointless.


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## Norm (15 Jan 2012)

brokenflipflop said:


> It's the unpredictability of a large beast and its young rider with no training/insurance etc that is my issue.


Training and insurance? You really did buy into the Audi philosophy wholesale, didn't you. However, shall we try a few examples...



brokenflipflop said:


> I think even if you only count the number of vehicles taking people to work, people who work out of their vehicles like me and all the emergency vehicles, it would still greatly outweigh the Tabitha's of the country who could quite easily *cycle on the lanes paid out of my road tax* instead.


 


brokenflipflop said:


> I've seen plenty of _bike_ races where a supposedly *top end bike* with an experienced _*rider*_ has done something completely unpredictable - 15 year old tabitha sitting on _*a **BSO *_with cars, cyclists and dogs buzzing about is asking for trouble.


 


brokenflipflop said:


> About 20 years ago I worked with a bloke who was almost totally deaf, had poor vision and minor brain damage as a result of a *clipless moment* - it only has to happen once doesn't it.


 


brokenflipflop said:


> Don't trust *carbon frames *or the silly *MAMILS* riding them - can't believe they're allowed on the road.


 


brokenflipflop said:


> Oh yeah. Silly me. What if there's a traffic jam tother side? What if the *bike hits a pothole or loose gravel and the rider comes off* - it's a dumb animal *driving the car *and giving it a wide birth might not necessarily make any difference to a disaster.


 
etc


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## theclaud (15 Jan 2012)

1682527 said:


> Some would say that it's a context thing.


 
[Edited again for pointlessness]


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## slowmotion (16 Jan 2012)

I can't really see how a girl on a horse texting is a major safety threat to other road users. I have another yardstick for it....the idiot who swerved into the southbound middle lane of the M5 near Bristol, at 85 mph, in heavy rain, at night, in very heavy Easter bank holiday traffic and missed us by a couple of yards. His face was pointing at his lap, and guess what? He was texting.

Give me girls on horses anyday.


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## Moderators (16 Jan 2012)

Some posts have been edited for improper language.

Keep it nice and on topic, please


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## brokenflipflop (16 Jan 2012)

theclaud said:


> "4x4" is bad language? I thought it was rather good. Does that mean I'm in retrospective shoot over Linf's Mitsubishi Thundercar?


Listen, I'm all for people saying what they want, how they want, using any language they want but I recently substituted your "W" word for the "M" word and was subsequently banned for a few days. I've not factored in the Guardian readers/Moderators best mates club into the equation but I think if we don't use language like that then I wont get banned and the moderators couldn't then be accused of double standards.


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## brokenflipflop (16 Jan 2012)

Norm said:


> Training and insurance? You really did buy into the Audi philosophy wholesale, didn't you. However, shall we try a few examples...
> 
> etc


 
Norm, I do get your point but my point is that where horses are concerned there are two unpredictable factors to consider plus the size/weight of the horse. 

Firstly there is the rider, which in your argument could be the cyclist.
Secondly there is the horse, which has a mind of it's own - a bike doesn't.
Thirdly, if a car hits a bike, bad as that is, I'd suggest a similar disaster with a horse would be a lot lot worse.


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## brokenflipflop (16 Jan 2012)

MissTillyFlop said:


> Can we not just ban teenagers?


 
+ 1


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## Norm (16 Jan 2012)

brokenflipflop said:


> Secondly there is the horse, which has a mind of it's own - a bike doesn't.
> Thirdly, if a car hits a bike, bad as that is, I'd suggest a similar disaster with a horse would be a lot lot worse.


My bike seems to have a mind of its own, sometimes it feels as fleet-footed as a thoroughbred, sometimes it's as ponderous as a carthorse. There may be some relationship to cake consumption, though. 

In response to your second point above, I was trying (and obviously failing) to point out that a cyclist at 20mph is as unpredictable as a horse at 3mph because of potholes, gravel, drain covers etc.

In response to the third, 7kg of carbon will not be as damaging as a tonne of horse, obviously, but that doesn't mean they don't have the same mental impact on drivers. Plenty of people get very nervous, agitated or angry when faced with overtaking a single cyclist, let alone a small group.

I completely understand what you are saying, though. In a less hostile environment, I'd confess to having had similar feelings myself in the past.

However, now that I'm into cycling, I realise that horses, pedestrians, runners and cyclists all deserve their space on the roads, and that the burden of responsibility is always on the car driver (a car will nearly always weigh more than a horse and will nearly always be travelling considerably faster) to take the greatest care.

If we try to ostracise horse riders and drive them off the tarmac, then that is, I believe, a long step towards the ability of others to do exactly the same to cyclists.


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## Mugshot (16 Jan 2012)

brokenflipflop said:


> Thanks for that. FYI when I'm waiting I normally use the time to think that I can't believe the authorities allow that huge unpredictable beast with that kid on its back onto the road. I often wonder if there has been any formal training/taxes etc and what would happen if the horse went berserk.


I'd use the time to get some texting done.


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## Dave Davenport (16 Jan 2012)

slowmotion said:


> Give me girls on horses anyday.


 
I'm not bothered if they're actually on a horse or not, as long as they're wearing the jodpurs and are handy with the whip.


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## coffeejo (16 Jan 2012)

Dave Davenport said:


> I'm not bothered if they're actually on a horse or not, as long as they're wearing the jodpurs and are handy with the whip.


I find that a little bit creepy, though I concede that it was probably meant to lighten the mood.


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## brokenflipflop (16 Jan 2012)

1682629 said:


> What would be worse?


Again Adrian, you may have anticipated my answer but I'll say it anyway - If I dropped a bicycle on your head from say 3 feet, I dare say it would hurt. If I dropped a horse on your head, it would most likely kill you. So if a car hits a horse or a horse goes berserk and falls onto a cyclist or pedestrian or vehicle, the sheer size and weight of the animal would be worse than any damage any pushbike could achieve.

Adrian, you're very clever, why did I have to explain that to you? I'm most surprised.


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## brokenflipflop (16 Jan 2012)

Mugshot said:


> I'd use the time to get some texting done.


Mugshot. You know the law. I can't be in full control of a motor vehicle if I'm texting, even if I'm stationery behind horses.


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## brokenflipflop (16 Jan 2012)

Dave Davenport said:


> I'm not bothered if they're actually on a horse or not, as long as they're wearing the jodpurs and are handy with the whip.


Dave. That's exactly the way I used to think until I started reading the Guardian. Now I'm all high brow and clever and all I know now that birds don't like it when you say things like that.


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## Mugshot (16 Jan 2012)

brokenflipflop said:


> I can't be in full control of a motor vehicle if I'm texting, even if I'm stationery behind horses.


Ah I see, I didn't realise sorry, best you leave it to the more dexterous amongst us then


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## ColinJ (16 Jan 2012)

I'm sure that most horse riders, like mountain bike riders, would be entirely happy to stick to bridleways if they could only find a suitable contiguous network to ride on! Even if they could, they still have to get to it.

We have a fantastic bridleway up here called the Mary Towneley Loop. It is 47 miles long but even that has a couple of road sections in it. It is a legal and/or physical impossibility to join every stretch of bridleway to other ones.

The thread isn't about people riding horses on roads, it is about a rider blocking a road while texting from a horse (which I think is a bit daft).


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## Baggy (16 Jan 2012)

brokenflipflop said:


> Mugshot. You know the law. I can't be in full control of a motor vehicle if I'm texting, even if I'm *stationery* behind horses.


Now you're really pushing the envelope...


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## brokenflipflop (16 Jan 2012)

Baggy said:


> Now you're really pushing the envelope...


That is a good spot and a quality joke made out of it


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## brokenflipflop (16 Jan 2012)

I'm sorry if I have diverted the thread from the title slightly. I didn't know that one wasn't supposed to do that.


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## Bicycle (16 Jan 2012)

brokenflipflop said:


> I'm sorry if I have diverted the thread from the title slightly. I didn't know that one wasn't supposed to do that.


 
I'm not sure Adrian has a problem with 'mission creep' on this thread BFF. He just disagrees with you about horses being allowed on the Queen's highway, as far as I can see. Even though it was I who started this with a slight moan about a texting equestrian, I am with Adrian in not having an issue with horses on tarmac. Even horses ridden by minors. My 12-year-old rides a horse on the road and I have no issue with that. If he texted in the saddle, paid no heed to other road users and dawdled two-abreast without having the courtesy to see who might want to get past, I would have words. But riding on the road is cool and frankly it holds up cars and bicycles hardly at all, if done with some civility and awareness.

Until about a century ago horses had the roads to themselves. Cars, bicycles and lorries are the Johnny-come-lately in this one.

Drivers and cyclists (up to a point) are on their territory - not the other way around.

As to manure being left on the carriageway (which some cyclists object to), it is easily avoided and quickly removed by car tyres. It doesn't represent half the threat to cyclists that mud from tractor tyres can. But that too is pretty much unavoidable if we want a domestic rural economy.


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## brokenflipflop (16 Jan 2012)

A lot of places don't accept cheques anymore even though they were in use before Debit cards. Crap analogy I know but we don't get horses walking down train tracks even though the horse came before the train. Billions have been spent on tarmac roads for cars, not horses. That said I still don't quite understand, given other suitable alternatives, the need for riders to take their horses onto tarmac roads. I'd suggest, in the majority of cases that it's pure vanity on behalf of the rider. What's wrong with riding the horses in the fields that the horse would usually reside in ? I'm not overly bothered, I just think it's an unnecessary risk and where I live the only animals for miles are domestic dogs and cats.


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## slowmotion (16 Jan 2012)

coffeejo said:


> I find that a little bit creepy, though I concede that it was probably meant to lighten the mood.


 
Jilly Cooper made millions out of it.


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## Aperitif (17 Jan 2012)

That could be a 'mare, Adrian, and it would depend on the tryres. You'd be no pal o mino for making me drive off road in my WP.


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## VamP (17 Jan 2012)

I wonder how many people debating this have actually sat on a horse.

Leaving aside the frothings of BFF who clearly doesn't get most things, can anyone accept that riding a horse is totally different to any other form of transport that we are generally exposed to? The horse is fully capable of transporting himself, the rider's job is to select the destination, and to provide corrective inputs in case of problems. The level of interaction between rider and horse is many, many orders of magnitude greater than that between a driver and a car, or indeed a rider and a bike. To that extent, texting while hacking at walking speed, especially in pairs, is actually pretty safe, as the horse is following the side of the road, and his hacking partner, and the rider has a plethora of sensory inputs to tell him of what is happening. Some horses are easily spooked, others are solid as a rock. It's the rider's job to know their horse, and to act appropriately. 

Mobile phone use while riding a horse is not against the law. It may not, however, always be sensible 

Riding side by side is advised in certain situations, to prevent dodgy overtakes, much as with cycling. Whether it was appropriate to this instance, I cannot tell.


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## Bicycle (17 Jan 2012)

VamP said:


> I wonder how many people debating this have actually sat on a horse.
> 
> Whether it was appropriate to this instance, I cannot tell.


 
A very good point. I have ridden, but no longer do. Some of my family are keen riders and I spend a fair amount of time around horses.

You're quite right about riding two-abreast being appropriate in some circumstances. These were not they. You're also quite right about the differences between riding a horse/pony and riding a bicycle. 

However, I disagree about a rider having only to 'choose a destination and provide corrective input in case of problems'. There is a school of thought that a rider on the road should have both hands on the rein/reins unless signalling. Not everyone holds with that, but a fairly large majority do. It is certainly widely believed that a rider must be aware of traffic approaching from all directions.

I do agree about the rider having a plethora of sensory inputs should anything happen... Most riders are switched on and courteous. But in this case I was sitting/rolling at tickover in a fairly lumpy diesel for about 25-30 seconds behind the horses before either rider showed any awareness of my presence. As there are several stables in the area, we usually see horses out hacking in those lanes. The lanes are generally thought to be too narrow and sinuous for two-abreast riding. This is the view of horsey folk, not just this gnarled and jaded old car lover. 

I agree with much of what you say and it is very clearly put. There was a lot of comment on this thread initially that I'd shown impatience in talking to the riders about the poor impression they were giving. I have to take that on board.

Nonetheless, I am sure that a rider on the highway must be completely in control of his or her horse at all times and fully aware of the presence of approaching traffic. These two were neither.

Thanks anyway for a thoughtful and thought-provoking response.


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## theclaud (17 Jan 2012)

Bicycle said:


> There is a school of thought that a rider on the road should have both hands on the rein/reins unless signalling. Not everyone holds with that, but a fairly large majority do.


 
Meh. They'll be telling us next that we should have our hands on the handlebars!


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## VamP (17 Jan 2012)

Bicycle said:


> There is a school of thought that a rider on the road should have both hands on the rein/reins unless signalling. Not everyone holds with that, but a fairly large majority do.


 
I would agree with that too. Now if you had said that the rider in question had let go of her reins, in order to do her texting, then my perception of the situation would have been different. It is, however, possible to operate a mobile phone and hold the reins at the same time...

Like you, I find the majority of horse riders safe and considerate. Typically, they are in a role of greater responsibility in the sense that they worry for the wellbeing of their horse as much, if not more than themselves. In that, they are similar to parents out bicycling with their offspring.

As to the fact that you spoke to the rider concerned, I have no issue with that. People should generally communicate more, and froth less.


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## Aperitif (17 Jan 2012)

Here's 'TexTing on a horse' for you...


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## VamP (17 Jan 2012)

1684469 said:


> That's everyone's favourite cycle themed cafe bar buggered then.


 
Maybe they could keep their re-decoration costs low by replacing 'hands' with 'trackstands' ??


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## snailracer (17 Jan 2012)

theclaud said:


> Meh. They'll be telling us next that we should have our hands on the handlebars!


And 4 wheels are of course safer than 2 - simple physics, innit?


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## dellzeqq (17 Jan 2012)

brokenflipflop said:


> Again Adrian, you may have anticipated my answer but I'll say it anyway - If I dropped a bicycle on your head from say 3 feet, I dare say it would hurt. If I dropped a horse on your head, it would most likely kill you.


even if I was wearing a helmet?


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## MontyVeda (17 Jan 2012)

BFF... my dad doesn't think cyclists should be on the roads and uses very similar arguments to you... i.e, ones which make very little sense... I'm beginning to wonder if you are in fact, my dad


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## MontyVeda (17 Jan 2012)

no... a toyota, usually behind a group-ride on winding country lanes getting steadily more and more irate


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## brokenflipflop (17 Jan 2012)

VamP said:


> I wonder how many people debating this have actually sat on a horse.
> 
> Leaving aside the frothings of BFF who clearly doesn't get most things, can anyone accept that riding a horse is totally different to any other form of transport that we are generally exposed to? The horse is fully capable of transporting himself, the rider's job is to select the destination, and to provide corrective inputs in case of problems. The level of interaction between rider and horse is many, many orders of magnitude greater than that between a driver and a car, or indeed a rider and a bike. To that extent, texting while hacking at walking speed, especially in pairs, is actually pretty safe, as the horse is following the side of the road, and his hacking partner, and the rider has a plethora of sensory inputs to tell him of what is happening. Some horses are easily spooked, others are solid as a rock. It's the rider's job to know their horse, and to act appropriately.
> 
> ...


You've got more cheek than a bag of arses. I'm not frothing either. Just because my opinion conflicts with you and some others doesn't mean I don't "get it". Furthermore (Jesus I'm sounding as anal as you lot) I've ridden horses on a number of occasions and it's not that difficult but thanks for the science with selection, input, corrective blah blah blah.....


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## brokenflipflop (17 Jan 2012)

MontyVeda said:


> BFF... my dad doesn't think cyclists should be on the roads and uses very similar arguments to you... i.e, ones which make very little sense... I'm beginning to wonder if you are in fact, my dad


NO. HE CAN'T POSSIBLY. CYCLIST ON BIKE - ONLY THE CYCLIST IS UNPREDICTABLE - THE BIKE IS AN INANIMATE OBJECT. THE HORSE AND RIDER ARE UNPREDICTABLE (DOUBLE TROUBLE) AND IN ADDITION THE HORSE IS A VERY LARGE AND HEAVY BEAST AND WOULD CAUSE MORE DAMAGE TO EVERYONE AND EVERYTHING THAN A PUSHBIKE.

_I could be your Dad......If you want  _


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## VamP (17 Jan 2012)

brokenflipflop said:


> BLAH BLAH BLAH... I'm not frothing either.... BLAH BLAH BLAH....


 
Are you sure?


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## brokenflipflop (17 Jan 2012)

1684163 said:


> A simplified history
> Train tracks have never been roads, they were built for trains.
> All our roads were built for pedestrians and horses. Much later they were increasingly made better and sealed for carriages and then bicycles.
> Cars came later. That the roads which once existed for horses have been usurped for the brash upstart is all the more reason not to give them up.
> Now if I were to give you a field and tell you that's all you can have in which to exercise the WP would that satisfy you? Would that be sufficient for you vanity?


Thanks for the history lesson. I'll revise my opinion - if someone is using their horse to drop the kids off at school, do the shopping, going to work or performing emergency transportation then I agree, they should be able to use tarmac roads. If it's just Tarquin and Tabitha airing their new jodhpurs (yes I looked up the spelling homeboy) then I think they should trott around a field.

You're getting very personal about my choice of vehicle. I think my vanity regarding my car Sports Utility Vehicle, is far outweighed by the enormous chip on your shoulder. Get over it homeboy


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## brokenflipflop (17 Jan 2012)

VamP said:


> Are you sure?


Yes, quite sure.


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## slowmotion (17 Jan 2012)

dellzeqq said:


> even if I was wearing a helmet?


  http://www.equinemudguard.co.uk/


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## dellzeqq (17 Jan 2012)

should horses wear helmets?


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## Aperitif (17 Jan 2012)

Neigh. 'Dobbincams' maybe...


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## MontyVeda (17 Jan 2012)

brokenflipflop said:


> _I could be your Dad......If you want  _


 
erm... I'll get back to you on that one


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## brokenflipflop (17 Jan 2012)

User13710 said:


> Off you go then and look up the spelling of trot


You Guardian readers might have the upper hand with your grammar and spelling but if we pitted our wits against each other at..at...erm.... crap !


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## brokenflipflop (17 Jan 2012)

MontyVeda said:


> erm... I'll get back to you on that one


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## MontyVeda (17 Jan 2012)

brokenflipflop said:


>


 
come on everyone... time for a group hug


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## fenlandpsychocyclist (17 Jan 2012)

MontyVeda said:


> come on everyone... time for a group hug


 
Yes ... wot he said.
Oh i'll git psycho.


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## Lisa21 (17 Jan 2012)

To be fair to the rider..if she competant and knows her horse and the area well then a quick text is not going to cause any problem imo whereas a schoolkid on a riding school hack is just being plain irresponsible. So really it all depends on the situation at the time.


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## Lisa21 (17 Jan 2012)

brokenflipflop said:


> You're getting very personal about my choice of vehicle. I think my vanity regarding my car Sports Utility Vehicle, is far outweighed by the enormous chip on your shoulder. Get over it homeboy


Dear god, are you STILL going on about that flippin monstrosity of yours!!!


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## brokenflipflop (17 Jan 2012)

Listen love, I didn't bring the subject of my SUV up, it was my homeboy Adrian.


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## Lisa21 (17 Jan 2012)




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## brokenflipflop (17 Jan 2012)




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## snailracer (17 Jan 2012)

brokenflipflop said:


> NO. HE CAN'T POSSIBLY. CYCLIST ON BIKE - ONLY THE CYCLIST IS UNPREDICTABLE - THE BIKE IS AN INANIMATE OBJECT. THE HORSE AND RIDER ARE *UNPREDICTABLE* (DOUBLE TROUBLE) AND IN ADDITION THE HORSE IS A VERY LARGE AND HEAVY BEAST AND WOULD CAUSE MORE DAMAGE TO EVERYONE AND EVERYTHING THAN A PUSHBIKE.
> 
> _I could be your Dad......If you want  _


A horse is predictably unpredictable. Therefore, they are predictable.


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## chewy (17 Jan 2012)

I think your all being a bit harsh...after all she might have been updating her Facebook, which is alot more important than merely texting!


"...am on a horse in road lol...."


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## lukesdad (17 Jan 2012)

I think some of you need to go for some riding lessons. Seat leg then reins. If the horse wasn t moving the reins have no bearing. You dont hold on with the reins


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## VamP (18 Jan 2012)

lukesdad said:


> I think some of you need to go for some riding lessons. Seat leg then reins. If the horse wasn t moving the reins have no bearing. You dont hold on with the reins


 
''Two girls on horses were almost stationary and two-abreast ahead of me. ''

Clearly moving. Should definitely keep a touch. Can you keep a touch and text? Yes. Should you allow the texting to distract you from the road situation? Probably not.


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## lukesdad (18 Jan 2012)

I would not advocate texting on the road, however when I ride with the missus we have a phone strapped to the arm. This is because we have to be contactable while the kids are at school. The biggest problem would be the phone going off (if not on silent) which could well spook a horse not used to it. If you mean by "touch " contact with the bit " that would depend on the horse and rider. As soon as you pick up contact the horse becomes alert and is ready for something usually work. Drop the contact and it relaxes same applies with leg on leg off. A well schooled horse and you can drop the contact on the bit completly and steer with your leg. With a horse thats good in traffic this is not a problem.


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## VamP (18 Jan 2012)

I think we're having an agreement


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## MissTillyFlop (18 Jan 2012)

Can't we just hate on this little ho-bag for being younger and hipper than us and the fact that people are actually texting her?


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## MrHappyCyclist (18 Jan 2012)

ColinJ said:


> Some people are just addicted to texting (messaging/tweeting/liking/emailing/whatever).
> My niece has better comms links than GCHQ - I've watched her juggling 2 mobiles (one for calls, one for texts), a cordless landline phone, twitter, facebook, MS Messenger and email, all at the same time.


Don't worry, it's all just a temporary blip until the neural interfaces are sorted out. Just one more step on our journey towards becoming "The Borg".


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## MissTillyFlop (18 Jan 2012)

1686081 said:


> Wouldn't that be descending into petty jealousy?


Yes... I thought we had ages ago....


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## snailracer (18 Jan 2012)

DiddlyDodds said:


> Why do you only have to play it if your on a road then ... you don't have to pay if its on private land, you do a thousand miles a week as long as its not on road , so you can use all the fancy dandy talk you want but *if you want to use a vehicle on the road you have to pay tax*.
> The fact that out of 3 billion raised in vehicle tax only a fraction gets spent on roads and the majority goes into Government coffers is by the by


Yet I appear to be able to cycle for miles on public roads and no-one has ever billed me - so AFAICT, road tax does not exist.


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## brokenflipflop (18 Jan 2012)

snailracer said:


> Yet I appear to be able to cycle for miles on public roads and no-one has ever billed me - so AFAICT, road tax does not exist.


I think the authorities don't call it road tax _because_ they spend hardly any of the "road" tax on the roads.

I think if Police car was stuck behind because I was driving at the speed 2 horse walk then I'd probably get a ticket which is a bit rich considering I pay "road" tax and the kids on the horses don't.


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## Bicycle (18 Jan 2012)

brokenflipflop said:


> I think *if* Police car was stuck behind because I was driving at the speed 2 horse walk then I'd probably get a ticket which is *a bit rich* considering I pay "road" tax and the kids on the horses don't.


 
Similarly, I think that if the Moon were made of cheese it would probably attract mice, which is *a bit rich.* Especially Stilton.


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## brokenflipflop (18 Jan 2012)

Only one would be a distinct possibility and the other just pie in the sky.

I'm reading the Guardian now because I want to be all high brow and clever and yet my grammar is rubbish. Does anyone know why ?


----------



## Bicycle (18 Jan 2012)

brokenflipflop said:


> Only one would be a distinct possibility and the other just pie in the sky.
> 
> I'm reading the Guardian now because I want to be all high brow and clever and yet my grammar is rubbish. Does anyone know why ?


 
Cripes! That's a hard question to answer. Poor grammar might be the result of one or more of several things, among which two of the more likely are:

1. A poor education
2. A good education to which you paid too little attention.

You will know which (if either) of these is the more applicable. 

If I wanted to improve my grammar, The Guardian would not be my first port of call. There is an excellent book by a man called Eric Partridge. It is called Usage and Abusage of the English Language (or similar). If it is no longer in print... don't worry. Spellcheck will make everything beautiful.


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## brokenflipflop (18 Jan 2012)

Number 2 was me.
Partridge.....I've studied his work avidly: Knowing me, Knowing you, I'm Alan Partridge, Alan Partridge Bouncing Back.


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## brokenflipflop (18 Jan 2012)

1686778 said:


> Time for another history lesson. This is taken, without permission from http://ipayroadtax.com/
> 
> ROAD TAX WAS ABOLISHED 74 YEARS AGO​​Road tax doesn't exist.​


 
That's why I wrote "road" and not road. I reckon if there were no vehicles ergo no "road" tax (or VED) the authorities wouldn't have been able or willing to provide tarmac roads at a cost of billions for the use of road bikes and horses.

You don't like vehicles do you Adrian.


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## ianrauk (18 Jan 2012)

1686818 said:


> I am pretty much convinced that the overwhelming majority of vehicle use is actually completely unnecessary and quite useless.


 
I wholeheartedly agree with that.


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## MontyVeda (18 Jan 2012)

1686818 said:


> I am pretty much convinced that the overwhelming majority of vehicle use is actually completely unnecessary and quite useless.


 

yup same here... from my desk at work I watch slow moving traffic heading for Morecambe all day long which never seems to ease up, it just goes even slower around 9am and 5pm... what is the point in going to Morecambe FFS!!!


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## brokenflipflop (18 Jan 2012)

If one factors in the tax on a car purchase, the income tax paid by everyone employed in the car industry and all business's dependant on vehicles, fuel duty and VED, and the fact that only a fraction of the VED alone is spent on roads every year then I'd suggest revenue collected as a consequence of the motor car must subsidise a lot of other things e.g. NHS, Asylum seekers, London etc etc.

I do use my vehicle for dozens of completely unnecessary trips but I've Just been to the Coop in the SUV for some milk, jelly babies and Soreen - it is about 450 metres though so I could argue it was justified. Also every trip I take I always think the fuel duty I pay is helping to pay for a Romanian Asylum seekers lunch.


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## lukesdad (18 Jan 2012)

Yep most of my rides are unnecessary, and im often quite useless at them


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## brokenflipflop (18 Jan 2012)

1686856 said:


> Nice try but I just don't believe you.


To make it worse, I can't remember the last time I walked to the Coop. To be fair Adrian, I've got a manual job and I am knackered when I get home and when the wife suggests I go and get her something nice from the Coop and it's cold and damp and dark outside then it's the SUV every time (and I don't miss any Emmerdale)


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## Bicycle (18 Jan 2012)

1686818 said:


> As for liking vehicles, I am pretty much convinced that the overwhelming majority of vehicle use is actually completely unnecessary and quite useless.


 
I can't quite agree with this statement. You and I might disagree with the idea of portly parents driving portly children to school. We might arch an eyebrow at a gym-bunny driving three miles to spend twenty minutes on a static bicycle...

... But I do not believe that* 'the overwhelming majority of vehicle use is completely unnecessary'*. It may be something that you and I would not consider using a vehicle to do, but that's a different thing. I'm sure that some vehicle use is unnecessary, but I'm not sure how we can state that the majority is. 

I feel similarly about your classification of the overwhelming majority of vehicle use being *'quite useless'*. Much of the art on my walls is quite useless, but I wouldn't be without it. The flowers growing among the fruit trees in my garden are quite useless, but they mean as much to me as the fruit, herbs and vegetables we grow for the table.

We try to drive as few miles as we can, but we still need two cars as a family and are right up the creek when one of them is U/S. 

I realise you may have made the point as a retort to something (probably slightly provocative) from another poster, but on the basis purely of the sentence as you write it, I disagree.


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## lukesdad (18 Jan 2012)

Bicycle said:


> I can't quite agree with this statement. You and I might disagree with the idea of portly parents driving portly children to school. We might arch an eyebrow at a gym-bunny driving three miles to spend twenty minutes on a static bicycle...
> 
> ... But I do not believe that* 'the overwhelming majority of vehicle use is completely unnecessary'*. It may be something that you and I would not consider using a vehicle to do, but that's a different thing. I'm sure that some vehicle use is unnecessary, but I'm not sure how we can state that the majority is.
> 
> ...


In other words he means " Cobblers "


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## brokenflipflop (18 Jan 2012)

The thing I love about cyclechat is the thought of me going down the road to the Coop, in the rain and dark, in my vehicle of choice to get the wife some toffees is viewed by some on here as the most unreasonable thing in the world.

It make I larf it does


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## lukesdad (18 Jan 2012)

Pleasure.


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## brokenflipflop (18 Jan 2012)

1686960 said:


> Don't flatter yourself. There are one or two things slightly further up the list of unreasonableness, yours is just a bit pathetically sad really.


Ady, if I was all lefty and mother earth and super-intellectual like thee then we wouldn't have these wonderful spats and debates of our two opposite opinions.


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## Ashtrayhead (19 Jan 2012)

brokenflipflop said:


> If one factors in the tax on a car purchase, the income tax paid by everyone employed in the car industry and all business's dependant on vehicles, fuel duty and VED, and the fact that only a fraction of the VED alone is spent on roads every year then I'd suggest revenue collected as a consequence of the motor car must subsidise a lot of other things e.g. NHS, Asylum seekers, London etc etc.
> 
> I do use my vehicle for dozens of completely unnecessary trips but I've Just been to the Coop in the SUV for some *milk, jelly babies and Soreen* - it is about 450 metres though so I could argue it was justified. Also every trip I take I always think the fuel duty I pay is helping to pay for a Romanian Asylum seekers lunch.


 
What a coincidence! I got the same in my local coop this evening (except the jelly babies) and the Soreen is on offer at 50p! They also do the best tea ever....Indian Prince, although they no longer do it loose leaf.


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## brokenflipflop (19 Jan 2012)

I hope you didn't drive there Ashtrayhead otherwise Adrian will go off his nut. When the kids were at home we'd do a big shop at Tesco once a week but we can't be bothered now so we visit the local Coop nearly every day.

Now I'm a bit posh and intellectual like Adrian, reading the Guardian and all, I'd like to shop at Waitrose but they don't have them around here.


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## theclaud (19 Jan 2012)

brokenflipflop said:


> Now I'm a bit posh and intellectual like Adrian


 
Blimey - now that I know Adrian is posh I'll have to act a bit more refined on the FNRttC. And wear a cap for doffing purposes.


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## theclaud (19 Jan 2012)

1687281 said:


> ****ing right I'm posh.
> 
> 
> But I don't like to make an issue of it.


 
I've been labouring under the delusion that you were amiable riff-raff. Now I know it's real verdigris, facetiousness will be a thing of the past.


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## Bicycle (19 Jan 2012)

lukesdad said:


> In other words he means " Cobblers "


 
 Not really.


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## MissTillyFlop (19 Jan 2012)

brokenflipflop said:


> Only one would be a distinct possibility and the other just pie in the sky.
> 
> I'm reading the Guardian now because I want to be all high brow and clever and yet my grammar is rubbish. Does anyone know why ?



Because you didn't have my amazing English teacher, who took us off syllabus for three months in A-level English Language because her "three-year-old has a better grasp of grammar than you lot. It's pathetic".


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## brokenflipflop (19 Jan 2012)

See what's happened....Adrian and pig have gone off on one with a Guardian conversation that I don't understand. 

I want to be able to do that. Bloody Hell !


----------



## brokenflipflop (19 Jan 2012)

MissTillyFlop said:


> Because you didn't have my amazing English teacher, who took us off syllabus for three months in A-level English Language because her "three-year-old has a better grasp of grammar than you lot. It's pathetic".


I did have an "O" level English teacher who once called me "disgusting". In my defence the bell had just gone for the end of break so I stuffed nearly all of my Penguin bar in my gob. Just then Miss Brown came in and saw my bulging cheeks and told me to spit whatever was in my mouth into the bin.....it wasn't a pretty sight, hence her remark. 

I was good at PE....but crap at everything else but hopefully, now I read the Guardian, I can be like my homeboy Adrian.


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## MissTillyFlop (19 Jan 2012)

brokenflipflop said:


> I did have an "O" level English teacher who once called me "disgusting". In my defence the bell had just gone for the end of break so I stuffed nearly all of my Penguin bar in my gob. Just then Miss Brown came in and saw my bulging cheeks and told me to spit whatever was in my mouth into the bin.....it wasn't a pretty sight, hence her remark.
> 
> I was good at PE....but crap at everything else but hopefully, now I read the Guardian, I can be like my homeboy Adrian.


 
You are like the anti-me. I would love to to have been one of the sporty kids at school!

I was that child who would rather spend playtime reading a book than going outside. I only wish my parents had taught me how to ride a bike when I was youger and got me a decent bike so I could have pootled around North Wales being anti-social but vigorous way!

BTW, I did genuinely love my English teacher, she was amazing and also stopped me from getting expelled from college!


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## ColinJ (19 Jan 2012)

MontyVeda said:


> yup same here... from my desk at work I watch slow moving traffic heading for Morecambe all day long which never seems to ease up, it just goes even slower around 9am and 5pm... *what is the point in going to Morecambe FFS!!*!


It gets them out of Lancaster? 

(I should own up to never having visited Morecambe _or_ Lancaster, so I don't know the realtive merits of them!)


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## MontyVeda (19 Jan 2012)

ColinJ said:


> It gets them out of Lancaster?
> 
> (I should own up to never having visited Morecambe _or_ Lancaster, so I don't know the realtive merits of them!)


 
Morecambe has been in steady decline since the Morecambe and Lancaster councils merged, oddly, Lancaster seems to have been on the up and up. Morecambe can be nice, especially when you're on the prom with your back to Morecambe looking towards the Cumbrian Mountains at sunset, or heading back to Lancaster.


----------



## theclaud (19 Jan 2012)

1687600 said:


> Don't run yourself down so, you have knowledge and skills that others don't. I for instance have no idea whatsoever what it means to be your homeboy.


Perhaps he means catamite?


----------



## Bicycle (19 Jan 2012)

theclaud said:


> Perhaps he means *catamite*?


 
Oddly, that was the word my _mental auto-edit_ replaced 'homeboy' with when I read the post.

Knowing neither party I have no reason to think this, but I saw the word applying to the author, not the subject.

I fear I may have done someone a terrible wrong in writing this, although I may simply have provided the catalytist to act on an unfulfilled wish.

Everyone should be happy. And so should everyone else. I fear this thing has drifted off-topic.


----------



## ColinJ (19 Jan 2012)

MontyVeda said:


> Morecambe has been in steady decline since the Morecambe and Lancaster councils merged, oddly, Lancaster seems to have been on the up and up. Morecambe can be nice, especially when you're on the prom with your back to Morecambe looking towards the Cumbrian Mountains at sunset, or heading back to Lancaster.


Sounds like it might be worth a long summer forum ride to check them out! We could do a tough hilly route out (Widdop, Fence, Nick O'Pendle, Waddington Fell, Trough of Bowland, Jubilee Tower, Quernmore) have a cafe stop somewhere in Morecambe or Lancaster, then ride back via Longridge, Padiham and Todmorden. I haven't checked the numbers, but I reckon we could make that a '200'.


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## VamP (19 Jan 2012)

Aaargh... now I can't get the image of BFF as a grizzled version of John Turturro's character in The Big Lebowski out of my head. Thanks Bicycle! Erm... and theclaud!


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## brokenflipflop (19 Jan 2012)

theclaud said:


> Perhaps he means catamite?


Hahahaha.......I don't know why I'm laughing, I don't know what the joke is and I don't know what the word means.

You Guardian readers, why can't I be like you....I so want to be like yoooouuu boooo hooooo


----------



## brokenflipflop (19 Jan 2012)

MissTillyFlop said:


> You are like the anti-me. I would love to to have been one of the sporty kids at school!
> 
> I was that child who would rather spend playtime reading a book than going outside. I only wish my parents had taught me how to ride a bike when I was youger and got me a decent bike so I could have pootled around North Wales being anti-social but vigorous way!
> 
> BTW, I did genuinely love my English teacher, she was amazing and also stopped me from getting expelled from college!


I think my English Lit teacher hated my guts - I always got 10% or less for homework and it was always a competition between me and Melvyn Grimshaw who got the worst % every week. The teacher gave the work out in order of score so Victoria always got hers first and me or Melvyn last. One time I was determined to do better so I did my homework in new improved super neat handwriting and really spent more time and care. Then, when it was just me and Melvyn waiting to be given our marked work back I thought "at least I'll beat Mel". The teacher handed Mel his paper and then she proceeded to conduct class. After the class finished I went up to her and asked why she hadn't given me my homework. The bitch said "I'm not marking someone elses homework". I just shrugged and buzzed of. PE is so much easier than trying to please arty farty types.

Just to prove what a vindictive cow she must have been, I scraped a "C" pass in the exam. (without ever actually having ever read a book in my life - study aides were so useful)

WAKE UP !


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## brokenflipflop (19 Jan 2012)

Bicycle said:


> Oddly, that was the word my _mental auto-edit_ replaced 'homeboy' with when I read the post.
> 
> Knowing neither party I have no reason to think this, but I saw the word applying to the author, not the subject.
> 
> ...


Texting on horses can be avoided if we ban horses from the roads unless they are dropping the kids off at school, going to work or performing an important journey other than posing or just stretching the horses legs.

Simples Sergei


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## brokenflipflop (19 Jan 2012)

1688111 said:


> Anything, so long as it is at least as important as travelling a distance you could walk in 5 minutes to pick up something you don't really need from the Co-op then.


Adrian. Firstly it would take about 15-20 minutes to get to the Coop and back and secondly us northerners don't have theatres, coffee shops, Big Ben, trendy architecture etc, all we have is soreen and milk - we do need it to enrich our lives.


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## Linford (1 Feb 2012)

theclaud said:


> "4x4" is bad language? I thought it was rather good. [Edited]


 
Linf has never been behind the wheel of a 'Chelsea Tractor' and is trying to figure what side of the fence to sit on in regard to these musings on horses and vehicles - 10 out of 10 for use of imagination in coming up with this term, but Panzers were a thoroughly German affair though so a bit misleading..


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## theclaud (1 Feb 2012)

Linford said:


> Linf has never been behind the wheel of a 'Chelsea Tractor' and is trying to figure what side of the fence to sit on in regard to these musings on horses and vehicles - 10 out of 10 for use of imagination in coming up with this term, but Panzers were a thoroughly German affair though so a bit misleading..


 
Hello! I had a different term, but it got moderated out of existence...


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## Linford (1 Feb 2012)

theclaud said:


> Hello! I had a different term, but it got moderated out of existence...


 
I'll take that as meaning it could be quite easy to have a bad day on here now theclaud ?
Hi BTW


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## theclaud (1 Feb 2012)

Linford said:


> I'll take that as meaning it could be quite easy to have a bad day on here now theclaud ?
> Hi BTW


 
I think I was having rather a good day at the time. But some people get all f**king twisty-knickered about what they call "bad" language. What news?


----------



## YahudaMoon (1 Feb 2012)

theclaud said:


> I think I was having rather a good day at the time. But some people get all f**king twisty-knickered about what they call "bad" language. What news?


 

Twisty-knickered, Is that like a cockwobble, winding ya neck in, or taking your head for a wobble ?


----------



## Linford (1 Feb 2012)

theclaud said:


> I think I was having rather a good day at the time. But some people get all f**king twisty-knickered about what they call "bad" language. What news?


 
The joy of swapping my Hybrid out last summer for the Roadie I bought a few years ago, and then having a (insert expletive) breaking into my garage the following night and pinching it. I've currently got an old clunker hardtial with a knackered bottom bracket which is less than nice to ride so not really much for now. How about yourself ?


----------



## theclaud (1 Feb 2012)

Linford said:


> The joy of swapping my Hybrid out last summer for the Roadie I bought a few years ago, and then having a (insert expletive) breaking into my garage the following night and pinching it. I've currently got an old clunker hardtial with a knackered bottom bracket which is less than nice to ride so not really much for now. How about yourself ?


 
 Sorry to hear about that. When you sell the 4x4-or-whatever-it-is and buy another nice bike, I'm sure Mrs Linford won't mind you keeping it in the house for security.


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## Linford (1 Feb 2012)

As long as we have the horses, I'll need one to shift them about. If there wasn't such a stong demand for quality stolen cycles, I doubt they would have targetted me. My neighbour had a 3 week old carbon Cube pinched about a month after that, but they went into his house to steal the shed keys.


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## theclaud (1 Feb 2012)

User3094 said:


> Hey Linf, you need an avatar. Start yourself a thread over in C&D (P&L in ye olde language) and we'll chose one for ya
> 
> TeeCee - whats up? Your quiet these days.


 
Bastard landlords, demanding colleagues, an unfavourable political climate - that sort of thing. I'm fine though, and am keeping one eye on the goings-on here. So don't imagine you'll get away with it, whatever it is...


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## Linford (1 Feb 2012)

User3094 said:


> Hey Linf, you need an avatar. Start yourself a thread over in C&D (P&L in ye olde language) and we'll chose one for ya
> 
> TeeCee - whats up? Your quiet these days.


 

C&D ? Not sure I can see that


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## Linford (1 Feb 2012)

I guess I could start by discussing the merits of Texting whilst Horseriding, or Whether a Q7 deserves the moniker of '4x4'


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## brokenflipflop (1 Feb 2012)

Linford said:


> I guess I could start by discussing the merits of Texting whilst Horseriding, or Whether a Q7 deserves the moniker of '4x4'


The resident sanctimonious Guardian readership on here have used it over 50 times already, I think it helps them bond with each other. Join them by entering it the required number of times, get your Avatar and in the process, join their elitist little club where people are free to say or do or buy what they like, unless they don't like it and then they turn into the bigots they profess to dislike.

Now I've got that off my chest....cup of tea I think. I'd say coffee but the Guardian readers would tut tut if I couldn't make a perfect flat white flappacino espresso macalatte....


----------



## Linford (1 Feb 2012)

brokenflipflop said:


> The resident sanctimonious Guardian readership on here have used it over 50 times already, I think it helps them bond with each other. Join them by entering it the required number of times, get your Avatar and in the process, join their elitist little club where people are free to say or do or buy what they like, unless they don't like it and then they turn into the bigots they profess to dislike.
> 
> Now I've got that off my chest....cup of tea I think. I'd say coffee but the Guardian readers would tut tut if I couldn't make a perfect flat white flappacino espresso macalatte....


 
I'd like to hope that is a fairtrade one as well - taken black of course without sugar for ethical reasons ?


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## brokenflipflop (1 Feb 2012)

Oh Christ. I look forward to seeing your black and white pretentious avatar sometime soon...


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## Linford (1 Feb 2012)

brokenflipflop said:


> Oh Christ. I look forward to seeing your black and white pretentious avatar sometime soon...


 
Thanks for the tip, I was struggling with idea's for one  - not so sure I can live with this one though.


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## brokenflipflop (1 Feb 2012)

Oh crap...you be their leader


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## Linford (1 Feb 2012)

Now about this texting whilst horse riding, and riding them two abreast on the roads. Texting is a judgment call and would depend on what is around them at the time, the temperament of the animal, the experience of the rider.
Many of these youngsters on horseback will have been riding from the age of 4 or less and so bt the age of 15 could have had 11 years of regular experience in the saddle. The horses as well may likely be very calm animals which are very experienced on the road, and not easily spooked - remember, the reins are used to direct a horse, not steer it, and keeping close contact with the bit by tugging on the reins all the time will just wind the animal up. You can't realistically compare horse riding with driving or riding a vehicle.
Regarding riding two abreast, it is also normally done for practical reasons. One of the horses or riders may not be very experienced, and so having a more experienced animal shielding it from the passing traffic will help to keep it calm. It also helps on narrow roads to encourage passing cars to wait until it is safe to attempt an overtake - Highway code makes some mention of it.

Obviously it is unrealistic to say this is always going to be the case, but if I saw this on the road, I would be more concerned with the behaviour of those around the horses and riders than the riders themselves as people can at times be very impatient when they come across slow moving road users.


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## brokenflipflop (1 Feb 2012)

Copyrights dude..

....or copycats dude..

...either way, it's just so bogus.


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## Linford (1 Feb 2012)

It is black and white though. That makes all the difference...

I'll have to give this one some thought before I change it. One can't rush an important decision like this. We have standards to maintain...


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## brokenflipflop (1 Feb 2012)

Linford, be straight with me now, are you Adrian's boyfriend ?


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## Crackle (1 Feb 2012)

This could be a tremendous double act.


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## Linford (1 Feb 2012)

Making jokes about someones sexuality isn't very funny BrokenFlipFlop

You still haven't given your considered response to the texting horse riders. Any chance of giving it a go ?

We'll get onto the subject of the Q7 later..


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## brokenflipflop (1 Feb 2012)

Linford said:


> Making jokes about someones sexuality isn't very funny BrokenFlipFlop
> 
> You still haven't given your considered response to the texting horse riders. Any chance of giving it a go ?
> 
> We'll get onto the subject of the Q7 later..


I never mention anyones sexuality...I just talk friends and boys

I never give a considered response but I think I've already given a response regarding horse riders which is they shouldn't be on the roads IMO.


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## Linford (1 Feb 2012)

The problem is that because they have been around such a long time, and were the primary form of road transport long before cars were invented, that their access to the roads is a historic right. The same can be said of driving sheep, or cattle on country roads from pasture to pasture, or to the milking parlour. 
If you were to demand that no hoofed animal were to be given access to the roads, and that they are all transported only vehicle, the cost of that drop of milk in your earl grey would go through the roof.
Besides that, Horses are only allowed on the roads when being led by a handler or by being ridden. 

Where will it end - sealing up the cat flaps and banning dog walking for fear you might come across one on your travels ?

I need some help with this Avatar anyway BrokenFlipFlop, People might start to talk................


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## brokenflipflop (1 Feb 2012)

brokenflipflop said:


> and get pooh on my bonnet/in my tyres or worse, a Christopher Reeve incident. I'm thinking that as far as the horse is concerned, it wouldn't matter if it was ridden in a field or a bridleway so I can only assume they take them on the roads because the riders get a buzz from the attention/audience they get from the motoring and general public "look at me on my horse etc etc"


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## Linford (1 Feb 2012)

Horses do as they are directed, but would always prefer to graze and not be worked. The riders generally ride where they feel safe and will use roads to join up the gaps in the network.
You can only ride around a field so many times before you get bored of doing it, and variety is the spice of life. If you were to average 5 miles on the average hack, you would be very lucky to do all of them entirely on bridlepaths.
We try and box ours to the area's with good paths but you still need to park up somewhere safe which is connected to the road network. Horses are not legally allowed on the pavements in any case.
Anyway, they do have a right to be there so you as a driver need to give due consideration - it is part of the conditions of your license


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## brokenflipflop (1 Feb 2012)

1706650 said:


> We have already dealt with the "look at me in my WP issue"


Adrian. You're so very tetchy tonight. I'm beginning to worry about you.


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## Linford (2 Feb 2012)

So now we have cleared up that misunderstanding about why people who feel horses on the road are 'wrong', We need to sort out this '4x4' thing, and why someone might feel the need to want to run such a large vehicle on the road.

I've got my reasons for hanging onto mine - you know, getting in and out of fields where a normal car wouldn't go, and dragging a heavy trailer to move the horses around to stop people moaning about them being hacked for any considerable distance on the highway, but it is a big old girl with an insatiable thirst.

I do like the look of the Q7, but it does beg the question - If you never actually use it in an off road situation, or require the mass of it to stay within the towing laws when dragging something heavy behind it, Why would you want one ? The VED and devaluation must be crippling !


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## Bluebell72 (2 Feb 2012)

I was pootling in a family car

That says more to me than the texting.


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## Linford (2 Feb 2012)

Bluebell72 said:


> I was pootling in a family car
> 
> That says more to me than the texting.


 
To be fair to BrokenFlipFlop, He didn't make that statement.


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## srw (2 Feb 2012)

Linford said:


> Whether a Q7 deserves the moniker of '4x4'


 
Yes it does. So does a Shogun.


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## VamP (2 Feb 2012)

Erm, does anyone ACTUALLY believe that BFF has a Q7?


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## Linford (2 Feb 2012)

srw said:


> Yes it does. So does a Shogun.


 
You sound very angry this morning srw, is it the Avatar ?


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## theclaud (2 Feb 2012)

Linford said:


> To be fair to BrokenFlipFlop


 
Let's not get carried away...


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## brokenflipflop (2 Feb 2012)

Do you feel insulted Linford....I do


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## Linford (2 Feb 2012)

brokenflipflop said:


> Do you feel insulted Linford....I do


 
There is a passing resemblance - I told you to get a wriggle on with the Avatar. Now when are you going to flog the Q7 and get a real 4x4 ?


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## lukesdad (2 Feb 2012)

Real 4x4 = A Landy.


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## Bicycle (3 Feb 2012)

lukesdad said:


> Real 4x4 = A Landy.


 
Quite right!

Nothing quite matches it! A good old traditional British 4x4 is great on the loose stuff, but a Landy on similar tyres will match it. 

Add to the equation the build quality, comfort, sound-insulation, electric diff locks, parts supply, power and fuel economy of the Japanese master and it's really no contest. 

When you said 'Landy' you were referring to the Toyota Land-Cruiser weren't you? 

The G-Wagen is jolly good too, but its mention on these pages will elicit unhelpful onanistic references.


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## lukesdad (3 Feb 2012)

Bicycle said:


> Quite right!
> 
> Nothing quite matches it! A good old traditional British 4x4 is great on the loose stuff, but a Landy on similar tyres will match it.
> 
> ...


 
My '90' is 20 odd years old, in the last 10 years its never been on the road. It works 365 days a year, Harrow s my fields, pulls my logging trailers, winches timber up from a valley after cutting etc. etc. Never misses a beat. Id love to see the state your piece of ' japcrap ' would be in after such a life. Not to mention the running costs that would have been incurred.

Like I said there is only one 4x4


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## VamP (3 Feb 2012)

You're both right! Stop fighting.

I travel all over Africa for work, and the two vehicles that are used day in day out, for off-road use in the most difficult conditions, decades old and with many hundreds of thoudsands miles on the clock are the Landy and the Landy  Serengeti safari companies do not use any other vehicles than these two. Both eminently repairable, and the running costs comparable.


----------



## Bicycle (3 Feb 2012)

lukesdad said:


> My '90' is 20 odd years old, in the last 10 years its never been on the road. It works 365 days a year, Harrow s my fields, pulls my logging trailers, winches timber up from a valley after cutting etc. etc. Never misses a beat. Id love to see the state your piece of ' japcrap ' would be in after such a life. Not to mention the running costs that would have been incurred.
> 
> Like I said there is only one 4x4


 
Ooops! I thought that comment might get a bite.

I drove Defenders for many years when posted overseas. Crossing mountains on unmade roads in snow, I'd take nothing else. There is no comparison, which is largely why BMW bought Rover Group.

L/Rs also push-start nose-to-nose without damage, you can roll them and just replace the bent panels and glass...

They are Tonka made by God.

However, a modern L/C is jolly good if you have 250 km to do on roads after your off-roading... and an old 40-series would still be chugging along as your 90 is. 

But sorry for the wind-up. I was trolling. I should be ashamed. :troll:


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## lukesdad (3 Feb 2012)

VamP said:


> You're both right! Stop fighting.
> 
> I travel all over Africa for work, and the two vehicles that are used day in day out, for off-road use in the most difficult conditions, decades old and with many hundreds of thoudsands miles on the clock are the Landy and the Landy  Serengeti safari companies do not use any other vehicles than these two. Both eminently repairable, and the running costs comparable.


 Are you a mechanic ? As for fighting, you wanna have a look at the global warming thread ! They re talking lawsuits there.... oh sorry! I see you already have


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## Norm (3 Feb 2012)

I've got a 110 truck cab, we need the open back as it's used for carrying stuff. If I wanted a station wagon, I'd happily switch to a Land Cruiser.

The G Wagen is stunningly capable, I had one for a while about a million years ago and I don't think they've changed much since. The only downside is that even old ones are a bit pricey for the sort of treatment that we give our Landy.



Bicycle said:


> But sorry for the wind-up. I was trolling. I should be ashamed. :troll:


Not every wind up is trolling, IMO, and I was  when I saw what you did.


----------



## lukesdad (3 Feb 2012)

Norm said:


> I've got a 110 truck cab, we need the open back as it's used for carrying stuff. If I wanted a station wagon, I'd happily switch to a Land Cruiser.
> 
> The G Wagen is stunningly capable, I had one for a while about a million years ago and I don't think they've changed much since. The only downside is that even old ones are a bit pricey for the sort of treatment that we give our Landy.
> 
> ...


 Can t you just get a trailer Norm ?


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## Norm (3 Feb 2012)

Yes, but a friend was selling it 4 years ago and it fit our needs. If we were buying on the open market, we'd probably be looking at an SWB (90" or a 40-series) and a trailer.


----------



## Linford (3 Feb 2012)

lukesdad said:


> My '90' is 20 odd years old, in the last 10 years its never been on the road. It works 365 days a year, Harrow s my fields, pulls my logging trailers, winches timber up from a valley after cutting etc. etc. Never misses a beat. Id love to see the state your piece of ' japcrap ' would be in after such a life. Not to mention the running costs that would have been incurred.
> 
> Like I said there is only one 4x4


 
Every Defender owner I've ever spoken to has always said they love them, but they are money pits, and they are continually spannering them - you don't find this a problem ? 

I guess any part of a vehicle will fail if it is subjected to enough abuse, and the sheer mass of the cars will wear out parts of it very quickly just because there is just so much weight on the stressed bits. 
I just had to replace the auto box in my Shogun after I burnt out the overdrive clutch over 30k miles of towing a 2 tonne trailer up the big hills where I live.


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## lukesdad (3 Feb 2012)

I like trailers.


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## VamP (3 Feb 2012)

lukesdad said:


> Are you a mechanic ? As for fighting, you wanna have a look at the global warming thread ! They re talking lawsuits there.... oh sorry! I see you already have


 
Oh Crikey! I am in trouble now. 

I am not a mechanic. I did my MBA thesis on the business plan of a safari company in Tanzania. Vehicle running costs were crucial in the analysis, and I did spend a lot of time interviewing mechanics and drivers of both types of Landy, as well as reviewing costs of operation and repair.


----------



## Linford (3 Feb 2012)

Norm said:


> I've got a 110 truck cab, we need the open back as it's used for carrying stuff. If I wanted a station wagon, I'd happily switch to a Land Cruiser.
> 
> The G Wagen is stunningly capable, I had one for a while about a million years ago and I don't think they've changed much since. The only downside is that even old ones are a bit pricey for the sort of treatment that we give our Landy.
> 
> ...


 
Morning Norm, long time no speak !


----------



## lukesdad (3 Feb 2012)

Linford said:


> Every Defender owner I've ever spoken to has always said they love them, but they are money pits, and they are continually spannering them - you don't find this a problem ?
> 
> I guess any part of a vehicle will fail if it is subjected to enough abuse, and the sheer mass of the cars will wear out parts of it very quickly just because there is just so much weight on the stressed bits.
> I just had to replace the auto box in my Shogun after I burnt out the overdrive clutch over 30k miles of towing a 2 tonne trailer up the big hills where I live.


 
They have their faults but they are so easy to work on and parts are as cheap as chips. So no I don t find it a problem. I have full workshop facilities mind but you can as easily work on them in a field.


----------



## lukesdad (3 Feb 2012)

VamP said:


> Oh Crikey! I am in trouble now.
> 
> I am not a mechanic. I did my MBA thesis on the business plan of a safari company in Tanzania. Vehicle running costs were crucial in the analysis, and I did spend a lot of time interviewing mechanics and drivers of both types of Landy, as well as reviewing costs of operation and repair.


 While this maybe true in Africa, price of parts I mean. We are talking about the UK here.


----------



## VamP (3 Feb 2012)

True. A lot of parts in Africa are repaired rather than replaced by new. A lot of replacements that cannot be repaired are sourced by cannibalization. New parts are prohibitively expensive there, for Land Rovers and for Toyota.

In Europe the situation is further skewed because Japanese companies keep margins on vehicle sales very low, and make all their profit on parts sales.


----------



## lukesdad (3 Feb 2012)

VamP said:


> True. A lot of parts in Africa are repaired rather than replaced by new. A lot of replacements that cannot be repaired are sourced by cannibalization. New parts are prohibitively expensive there, for Land Rovers and for Toyota.
> 
> In Europe the situation is further skewed because Japanese companies keep margins on vehicle sales very low, and make all their profit on parts sales.


 Also the quantity of pattern parts for Land rovers available is staggering.


----------



## Linford (3 Feb 2012)

lukesdad said:


> They have their faults but they are so easy to work on and parts are as cheap as chips. So no I don t find it a problem. I have full workshop facilities mind but you can as easily work on them in a field.


 

I had to swap out the lower ball joints for the MOT a few months ago, and I'm sad to say that I had to hand it to the garage in the end as I didn't have the kit to unload the suspension on the front end so I could split the joints (Big long torsion bars). The autobox and attached transfer box weighed a ton, and was a 3 man job to lift out. It couldn't be done without a car lift extended to full height and an engine lift as well to position it to get it all to line up. I'd still say that it is fairly agricultural though when you get down to the nitty gritty of it, but all just so big and heavy to push and pull around.

I don't have any problem getting pattern bits for my Shogun BTW. That has all been sorted now in the UK, and they aren't stupid money either.


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## brokenflipflop (3 Feb 2012)

I drive my Audi Q7 4.2 DTI Quattro S-Line down the road to the Coop nearly every day and it runs like a dream and never misses a beat. It's a bonus that those stupid speed humps don't slow it down like it does on the poor people's cars and when I took it off-road (the backings opposite to avoid a traffic jam) it was equally as impressive.


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## Linford (3 Feb 2012)

User3094 said:


> Never in my 20+ years of car ownership have i had to get parts (patterned, speckled, striped or otherwise)....
> 
> Thats because I drive a normal car see


 

Only because you swap them out for new ones before they wear out Smeggers


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## brokenflipflop (3 Feb 2012)

Big car - check
small men - I'm not _tall -_ check
acorn penis - check

I can confirm that I fit your profile for owning an Audi Q7 4.2 DTI Quattro S-Line.

Off road ? It's just great on our crappy pot-holed roads, daft speed humps and gravel backings.

Didn't consider it when I got it but it appears it also pisses off sanctimonious Guardian readers too. It's also now helping warm the earth to fend off the new ice age that the "experts" have predicted. I really can't think of a down side


----------



## Bicycle (3 Feb 2012)

brokenflipflop said:


> I drive my Audi Q7 4.2 DTI Quattro S-Line down the road to *the Coop* nearly every day and it runs like a dream and never misses a beat. It's a bonus that those stupid speed humps don't slow it down like it does on the poor people's cars and when I took it off-road (the backings opposite to avoid a traffic jam) it was equally as impressive.


 
I've identified you as an organic poultry farmer and I claim my prize. Hurrah!


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## Linford (3 Feb 2012)

brokenflipflop said:


> I drive my Audi Q7 4.2 DTI Quattro S-Line down the road to the Coop nearly every day and it runs like a dream and never misses a beat. It's a bonus that those stupid speed humps don't slow it down like it does on the poor people's cars and when I took it off-road (the backings opposite to avoid a traffic jam) it was equally as impressive.


 
Sticking them on the pavement opposite the school gate doesn't really qualify as 'offroad' though. I'm using mine today as my o/h wanted to use the regular road car, but I'd not use it for running around town in by choice - It is a squeeze in the car parks, hard to get a parking space on the road with, juicy as hell, and not that nippy.

If you wanted to demonstrate to your neighbours how much disposable income you have, instead of living with the massive depreciation of the Q7, why not just run a regualr car and have a bonfire every couple of months in your front garden with £10 notes ?


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## Bicycle (3 Feb 2012)

1708360 said:


> What about the using it to go shooting, or is it me who is misremembering your stories?


 
You are misremembering. I'm the one who uses a Q7 for shooting.

I'm not a great shot; damage to the vehicle has been minor to date. I have no idea who owns it.


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## lukesdad (4 Feb 2012)

Street cred round here is based on the size of yer Fergie and of course accompanying attatchments


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## Hip Priest (4 Feb 2012)

I always encounter horseriders on my rides. Once I even encountered a hunt. They're always very friendly, even to a prole like me. The texting thing is annoying from any road user.


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## VamP (6 Feb 2012)

Hip Priest said:


> Once I even encountered a hunt.


 
Like this? 'tis an awesome sight, and the sound of the bloodhounds baying sends shivers down my spine every time.


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## Linford (6 Feb 2012)

Hip Priest said:


> I always encounter horseriders on my rides. Once I even encountered a hunt. They're always very friendly, even to a prole like me. The texting thing is annoying from any road user.


 
The honest answer is that the majority of people who join the hunt are regular people scratching a living like the rest of the people in society. All I've spoken to are primarily horse mad, and use the opportunity to go and ride them at a gallop where they would otherwise not have the opportunity to do this. At roughly £20-£25 per day for the cap, it compares against a day on a fun ride, as a day in competition doing a Cross country, or show jumping.
The ones with the wedge are usually the ones who host the hunts (farmers), but that has always been the case.


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## VamP (6 Feb 2012)

Linford said:


> The honest answer is that the majority of people who join the hunt are regular people scratching a living like the rest of the people in society. All I've spoken to are primarily horse mad, and use the opportunity to go and ride them at a gallop where they would otherwise not have the opportunity to do this. At roughly £20-£25 per day for the cap, it compares against a day on a fun ride, as day i competition doing a Cross country, or show jumping.
> The ones with the wedge are usually the ones who host the hunts (farmers), but that has always been the case.


 
Tru dat. It's the most bang for your buck you can have with a horse. 

The vast majority of horsey people are permanently skint as all their disposable goes into their passion. It's like cycling cubed


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## theclaud (6 Feb 2012)

VamP said:


> It's the most bang for your buck you can have with a horse.


 
Got to be sig material...


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## brokenflipflop (6 Feb 2012)

Linford said:


> The honest answer is that the majority of people who join the hunt are regular people scratching a living like the rest of the people in society. All I've spoken to are primarily horse mad, and use the opportunity to go and ride them at a gallop where they would otherwise not have the opportunity to do this. At roughly £20-£25 per day for the cap, it compares against a day on a fun ride, as a day in competition doing a Cross country, or show jumping.
> The ones with the wedge are usually the ones who host the hunts (farmers), but that has always been the case.


Does that mean my taxes are paying for scroats to have fibre broadband, Sky TV and "the hunt" 

Seriously though, nowt wrong with chasing and culling pesky foxes etc but do they have to ride on the road - it's dangerous.


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## Linford (6 Feb 2012)

brokenflipflop said:


> Does that mean my taxes are paying for scroats to have fibre broadband, Sky TV and "the hunt"
> 
> Seriously though, nowt wrong with chasing and culling pesky foxes etc but do they have to ride on the road - it's dangerous.


 
You've got it in one. Diversity is something which has been chased hard in the last few years. I do see this as a fundamental part of our heritage (if only in spirit now). The spectacle of the event in this form is something which I see as very British. The Army does plenty of practising running up and down parade grounds and obstacle courses with bits of cannons whilst not actually shooting anyone with them so why be so hard on them as long as they stay within the written law.

Anyway, Dangerous to ride on the road - Dangerous to who, them or you BFF ?


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## Bicycle (6 Feb 2012)

Linford said:


> . Diversity is something which has been chased hard in the last few years.
> 
> 
> > Keep up Linford. It is Foxes wot is bein' chased - not Diversity.


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## Linford (6 Feb 2012)

I could have sworn that Diversity was all about encouraging traditions, and cultural differences amongst the different groups of people who we live amongst. Who better to start with than our own


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## Linford (6 Feb 2012)

1712918 said:


> People have stopped hunting foxes?


 
They have with all the ones I've been out to see. It is all drag hunting and some dude riding on ahead to lay a trail nowadays. Always seem to see the police make an appearance, but never hang around long. If there still were widespread law breaking, the sabs would have a whole lot more evidence than they have now what with 185 hunts going out twice a week. It seems most of the trouble comes from the sabs getting trod on when they get in the way than actual foxes being caught, and a lot more of them actually get killed on the roads by vehicles than any other way.


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## Linford (6 Feb 2012)

1712942 said:


> I have on occasion wondered whether the numbers killed by cars make the hunting pretty much irelevant.


 
I read somewhere that there are apparently 250k foxes in the UK, and 100k of them die on the roads each year. The real hunting bit has been banned in the acknowledged sense, but they still look to control the numbers with terriers, and marksmen. I don't know much about this side TBH, but the bits of the hunts I've seen have always had some dude chasing off ahead dragging something behind him, the hounds picking up the trail and then the riders chasing after them.


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## lukesdad (6 Feb 2012)

Mainly foot hunts round here now, as most of the land owners have stopped allowing hunts ( me included ) nothing to do with the foxes. The hunts do to much damage to property with no offer of making damage right.


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## Linford (6 Feb 2012)

It seems to be very structured with hierarchy and a boss man who leads the way. Many of the riders are youngsters who are kacking it, and desperately trying to keep up. It is very physically demanding on all who take part, and they can cover a good few miles, mostly in the farmers fields, sometimes on the roads, always out in the arse end of nowhere.


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## brokenflipflop (6 Feb 2012)

I kill hundreds of insects on the front of my Audi Q7 4.2 DTI Quattro S-Line and that's fine, kill a fox and the loony left go all eggy and have a strop. They're all God's creatures - what's the difference ?

Hang on, let's think about this. Foxes kill chickens, insects don't, ergo insects should possibly be protected and foxes should be hunted down and exterminated. Yes, that makes sense


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## Linford (6 Feb 2012)

brokenflipflop said:


> I kill hundreds of insects on the front of my Audi Q7 4.2 DTI Quattro S-Line and that's fine, kill a fox and the loony left go all eggy and have a strop. They're all God's creatures - what's the difference ?
> 
> Hang on, let's think about this. Foxes kill chickens, insects don't, ergo insects should possibly be protected and foxes should be hunted down and exterminated. Yes, that makes sense


 
You can drop the '4.2 DTI Quattro S-Line' bit now. I get the idea 
Anyway, if I had to say that everytime I mentioned my 4x4, I'd have everybody running for the door. I'm beginning to warm to the idea of '4x4' It sounds far more 'rugged' don't you think ?


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## Bicycle (6 Feb 2012)

1712976 said:


> Left to their own devices how many do hunts hunt, compared to the road deaths?


Very few, I believe. The main threat to cyclists is other road users. Hunts account for very few of us.


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## Linford (6 Feb 2012)

1713022 said:


> You wish, he's been doing it for weeks now. My advice would be to not let any annoyance show, there's no solid evidence either way but you might just be encouraging him if you comment on it.


 
Without courting too much controversy, whilst having a break from here for a few years, my presence amongst the regulars goes back to the days of C+. I had some fairly robust exchanges which really didn't do anyone any favours on either side of the fence, and primarily driven by the massive ego's being waived around.
The forum vibe seems a lot more personable now than back then, and it appears to me to be a much better place for it


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## Becs (6 Feb 2012)

Ok, I've just read the entire thread (yes I am that bored!). To save anyone else the hassle I'd like to proffer a summary:
Brokenflipflop thinks:
Horses should not be allowed on roads, especially when being ridden by people with posh names.
Reading the Guardian is the height of sophistication and should therefore be used as an insult.
Driving a 4.2 DTI Quattro S-Line makes up for him having a small penis (and obviously other issues)
Adrian is his "homeboy"

Everyone else thinks:
Landrovers are great and BFF is a bit of a pr*ck.

Did I miss anything?


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## Linford (6 Feb 2012)

Becs said:


> Ok, I've just read the entire thread (yes I am that bored!). To save anyone else the hassle I'd like to proffer a summary:
> Brokenflipflop thinks:
> Horses should not be allowed on roads, especially when being ridden by people with posh names.
> Reading the Guardian is the height of sophistication and should therefore be used as an insult.
> ...


 
I spoke too soon


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## Becs (6 Feb 2012)

Linford said:


> I spoke too soon


 
Don't worry, I speak in jest . . . .


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## brokenflipflop (6 Feb 2012)

1713144 said:


> Just the small detail about my not being BFF's homeboy, whatever that might be.


Ady....you're my homeboy and I'm a pr*ck. I'm cool with it


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## 400bhp (6 Feb 2012)

Never mind this txting crap. The real question is whether Linford is Brokenflipflop pre 1967?


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## Linford (6 Feb 2012)

400bhp said:


> Never mind this txting crap. The real question is whether Linford is Brokenflipflop pre 1967?


 
Smeggers reckoned that a comp should be run to find me a new Avatar, BFF thought I was a Guardianista and suggested a arty B&W pic to suit - I felt compelled to comply. (the bit about me being a Guardianista though  )


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## brokenflipflop (6 Feb 2012)

Ady, you have homeboys too. If I've seen "Marinyork, User13710 and canrider like this" once, I've seen it a hundred times. I thinks they like you lots and lots.


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## 400bhp (6 Feb 2012)

> Smeggers reckoned that a comp should be run to find me a new Avatar, BFF thought I was a Guardianista and suggested a arty B&W pic to suit - I felt compelled to comply. (the bit about me being a Guardianista though  )


 
Ah, makes some sense I suppose.

Not sure Guarianista is correct. I think it should be Guardiador?


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## Linford (7 Feb 2012)

400bhp said:


> Ah, makes some sense I suppose.
> 
> Not sure Guarianista is correct. I think it should be Guardiador?


 
I've just been given some double ended knitting needles which are ideal for circular knitting, and my local health food shop has got large tubs of organic Llama Yogurt flown in from the Andes by fast jet for extra freshness on special. I hear they have some great patterns to follow in the Guardian, and subscription to the readership does seem to bring a form of empowerment like no other can manage. I'll be wearing home knitted 'apparel' and growing a beard in no time - like all the other readers


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## VamP (7 Feb 2012)

Linford said:


> I read somewhere that there are apparently 250k foxes in the UK, and 100k of them die on the roads each year. The real hunting bit has been banned in the acknowledged sense, but they still look to control the numbers with terriers, and marksmen. I don't know much about this side TBH, but the bits of the hunts I've seen have always had some dude chasing off ahead dragging something behind him, the hounds picking up the trail and then the riders chasing after them.


 
There' also alternatives to fox hunting, such as bloodhounding, as per the pic I posted above. The bloodhounds do not chase foxes, unlike the hounds that are used by traditional hunts, so there is no chance of an accidental fox kill. Bloodhounds chase humans 

Hunts employ a runner or two, who lay out the lines, in a pre arranged pattern (to keep landowner happy), with a 20 minute or so head start. The sight of the runners getting caught by the pack and licked nearly to death is brill .

The hunters are in it for the social aspect, but mainly for the thrill of hedge jumping.

As for fox hunting, I believe the argument of the hunting protesters was never about the numbers of foxes that were killed by hunts.


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## Linford (7 Feb 2012)

VamP said:


> There' also alternatives to fox hunting, such as bloodhounding, as per the pic I posted above. The bloodhounds do not chase foxes, unlike the hounds that are used by traditional hunts, so there is no chance of an accidental fox kill. Bloodhounds chase humans
> 
> Hunts employ a runner or two, who lay out the lines, in a pre arranged pattern (to keep landowner happy), with a 20 minute or so head start. The sight of the runners getting caught by the pack and licked nearly to death is brill .
> 
> ...


 
By and large, I'm just the transport who gets the horse and rider to the starting point, so I know little about it apart from following them a few times. They have certainly never caught anything when I've made a point of this, as I normally just unhitch and go home if close enough until I get a call to go and get them. I'm certainly not a good enough horse rider to go out with them and hop hedges.


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## lukesdad (7 Feb 2012)

Linford said:


> By and large, I'm just the transport who gets the horse and rider to the starting point, so I know little about it apart from following them a few times. They have certainly never caught anything when I've made a point of this, as I normally just unhitch and go home if close enough until I get a call to go and get them. I'm certainly not a good enough horse rider to go out with them and hop hedges.


I did a little hunting when I first met LM, but didn t really fit in. Can t think why.


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## VamP (7 Feb 2012)

Linford said:


> By and large, I'm just the transport who gets the horse and rider to the starting point, so I know little about it apart from following them a few times. They have certainly never caught anything when I've made a point of this, as I normally just unhitch and go home if close enough until I get a call to go and get them. I'm certainly not a good enough horse rider to go out with them and hop hedges.


 
Me too 

I tend to hang around and take pictures, following on my cross bike, if it makes sense. It is a good day out though, though I would echo lukesdad sentiments about not really fitting in


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## lukesdad (7 Feb 2012)

There are of course unsavoury parts to hunting. Cubbing for instance, initiation ceremony s for youngsters quite frankly is pagan.


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## Linford (7 Feb 2012)

I'd say that 95% of our excursions are for showjmping competitions. If someone were to try that on with my daughter, they would get their answer. She is only interested in the riding aspect of it. Follows the dress code because she wouldn't be able to ride with them otherwise. All the people we have ever had contact with are basically the people who roll up to the Show Jumping comps - at the end of the day, it is what they do in the arena when they get there, and not how big your lorry is, or how much the horse cost to buy. Probably the most able of horse/rider combinations in our local area at the level ours competes at, lives in a tied cottage with her parents and works on a yard shovelling horse poo all week for minimum wage.
Looks can be deceiving with the horse set.


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## Becs (7 Feb 2012)

Linford said:


> I'd say that 95% of our excursions are for showjmping competitions. If someone were to try that on with my daughter, they would get their answer. She is only interested in the riding aspect of it. Follows the dress code because she wouldn't be able to ride with them otherwise. All the people we have ever had contact with are basically the people who roll up to the Show Jumping comps - at the end of the day, it is what they do in the arena when they get there, and not how big your lorry is, or how much the horse cost to buy. Probably the most able of horse/rider combinations in our local area at the level ours competes at, lives in a tied cottage with her parents and works on a yard shovelling horse poo all week for minimum wage.
> Looks can be deceiving with the horse set.



That was my experience too. I used to rock up to my local riding club in an ancient trailer pulled by an ancient ex army landrover, in my second hand jacket with my scruffy ex-gypsy welsh D in the back. Felt intimidated at first, especially as none of my family are horsey, but we did well in our classes and dad was a useful fence builder so we slotted right in, albeit rather scruffily! The pony in question was absolutely bombproof after his misspent youth and i would often use my phone on quiet roads to let the parents know where I was . . . And we're back on topic! :-)


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## VamP (7 Feb 2012)

Eventing is Ms VamPs main focus, but the autumn is all hunting. Which is tricky as it coincides with the CX season and there are nefarious sleights of hand over transport.

Anyone else find the grading system for horsey competitions hilarious? Ms VamP is building up to Novice level


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## dellzeqq (7 Feb 2012)

400bhp said:


> Never mind this txting crap. The real question is whether Linford is Brokenflipflop pre 1967?


happily I've no way of telling


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## Linford (7 Feb 2012)

dellzeqq said:


> happily I've no way of telling


 
Me drive an Audi Q7 4.2 DTI Quattro S-Line. I'd only want one if I moved to Streatham Simon 

How the devil are you anyway - still involved with the CTC I gather ?


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## 400bhp (7 Feb 2012)

Do Audi make white vans these days?


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## Linford (7 Feb 2012)

User3094 said:


> Dont think he can hear you matey - his ignore list is now the 8th wonder of the world.
> 
> Have you qualified for CA&D yet?


 
Nope, Can't see it at all. I think the drawbridge is up on that one.

Shame about the ignore list. I was hoping more for Droll that Troll...


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## mangaman (7 Feb 2012)

1713144 said:


> Just the small detail about my not being BFF's homeboy, whatever that might be.


 
Come on Adrian - we all know it's true. Nothing to be ashamed of.

You could use your homeboy status for some precision bin positioning advice for example.


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## 400bhp (7 Feb 2012)

1713673 said:


> That's easy for you to say, you haven't got your wife suspecting that you are having a gay relationship with some Manc drug dealer.


 
What's so bad about a happy relationship?


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## 400bhp (7 Feb 2012)

[QUOTE 1713698, member: 45"]I've fitted my donkey with hands-free and voice recognition.[/quote]

Euphamism alert...


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## mangaman (7 Feb 2012)

1713673 said:


> That's easy for you to say, you haven't got your wife suspecting that you are having a gay relationship with some Manc drug dealer.


 
True.

He does drive some sort of Audi though, I gather, so that's quite impressive.


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## brokenflipflop (7 Feb 2012)

1713502 said:


> Bliss ignorance is.


 
MMMMM Jedi you want to be......


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## lukesdad (7 Feb 2012)

VamP said:


> Eventing is Ms VamPs main focus, but the autumn is all hunting. Which is tricky as it coincides with the CX season and there are nefarious sleights of hand over transport.
> 
> Anyone else find the grading system for horsey competitions hilarious? Ms VamP is building up to Novice level


That will make her pre novice then  (why are there no smileys on an IPad). Does she have to go through the ballot system for entries ?


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## lukesdad (7 Feb 2012)

Becks that section D pony was it a midget ?


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## brokenflipflop (7 Feb 2012)

User13710 said:


> Proud to be one of your homeboys Adrian


Jesus !


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## Linford (7 Feb 2012)

Why don't you put the ego's down and step away from the keyboard - life is too short. Would you agree with that Mr P ?


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## Becs (7 Feb 2012)

lukesdad said:


> Becks that section D pony was it a midget ?



Ha ha. The pony was in the back of the (rice Beaumont) trailer not the defender! I did make him look like a midget though - he was 14.2 and I was the best part of 6ft, I took the bricks off a chase me Charlie wall with my feet once!


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## brokenflipflop (7 Feb 2012)

1713673 said:


> That's easy for you to say, you haven't got your wife suspecting that you are having a gay relationship with some Manc drug dealer.


My bus stop slag thinks I'm having a gay relationship with a chap in a large cardigan, comfy shoes, speech impediment and glasses !


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## VamP (7 Feb 2012)

lukesdad said:


> That will make her pre novice then  (why are there no smileys on an IPad). Does she have to go through the ballot system for entries ?


 
Well, her horse competes at pre-novice level mainly. She has ridden at Intermediate on a different horse, and Pog has done a couple of Novice standard events, but he's a bit too clever and tends to look for easy ways around difficult jumps.

I have no idea about ballot system, the entries process is something that happens in Ms VamP's world.

It does crack me up to listen to her explaining how pre-novice is not ''like really rubbish, you know?''


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