# 3p rise per litre in fuel duty ? ?



## Sore Thumb (11 Nov 2012)

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20285940

I don't mind the rise, if it discourages people out of their cars.

I remember listening to a motorist that was talking on a London cycle hating radio station.

He said he could no longer afford to keep on filling up his expensive car all the time. So he said he was now forced to buy a second small car for the daily commute and can only use his expensive car for best. My heart bleeds.


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## mcshroom (12 Nov 2012)

Pump prices have dropped by more than 3p a litre in the last few weeks anyway.

The fuel escalator was introduced to discourage car usage, yet now it's starting to actually have an effect the politicians are getting scared.


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## snorri (12 Nov 2012)

Is this a new venture for Which?
Carrying out opinion polls and trying to influence government policy, seems a bit away from their original function of providing independnt information to assist consumers.


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## growingvegetables (12 Nov 2012)

snorri said:


> Is this a new venture for Which? ...


And when did Which? announce to the consumer that they had affiliated to the Taxpayers' Alliance, or one of their sundry associated labels?


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## GrumpyGregry (12 Nov 2012)

shame it isn't 30 pence. The roads would be quieter.


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## screenman (12 Nov 2012)

GC, why not move to somewhere where there are fewer cars? I would imagine your choice of county quite well populated. I Personally I for one cannot do my job without the use of a car or van, so the increase in fuel price would not be welcome.

Come to think about it there are 3 of us in this family who use a car for work, my wife a Chiropodist needs the car for rural customers, my son a retained firefighter would not get to the station in time without his, he has tried the bike but the distance and time scale means averaging 26 mph up hill.

Unfortunately not having worked for the BBC for 54 days and received a nice pay out for failure I will have to keep driving for a few more years.


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## GrumpyGregry (12 Nov 2012)

screenman said:


> *GC, why not move to somewhere where there are fewer cars? I would imagine your choice of county quite well populated.* I Personally I for one cannot do my job without the use of a car or van, so the increase in fuel price would not be welcome.
> 
> Come to think about it there are 3 of us in this family who use a car for work, my wife a Chiropodist needs the car for rural customers, my son a retained firefighter would not get to the station in time without his, he has tried the bike but the distance and time scale means averaging 26 mph up hill.
> 
> Unfortunately not having worked for the BBC for 54 days and received a nice pay out for failure I will have to keep driving for a few more years.


We tried it, lived in West Wales for a good few years.Not that much call for my skill set in more rural settings tbh.

The lovely Helen chooses to live near the bosom of her family and her Altzheimers wracked mother, all of whom are in Sussex/Surrey, and I do so love the lovely Helen. But I chose to take a job within cycling distance (20km) of home, and now must endure the 85% of cars driven with single occupancy owned and operated by the

49% of the population in England and Wales who travel less than 5 km to work
68% of the population in England and Wales who travel less than 10 km to work
83% of the population in England and Wales who travel less than 20 km to work


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## Saluki (12 Nov 2012)

GregCollins said:


> shame it isn't 30 pence. The roads would be quieter.


A rise like that would just about put me out of business. With a fledgling business, every penny counts for us and with 30kg of kit to cart about and a lot of South Norfolk to cover, its not practical to commute to my customers with a bike and trailer.


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## green1 (12 Nov 2012)

Saluki said:


> A rise like that would just about put me out of business. With a fledgling business, every penny counts for us and with 30kg of kit to cart about and a lot of South Norfolk to cover, its not practical to commute to my customers with a bike and trailer.


A rise like that would put the UK out of business.


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## Andrew_Culture (12 Nov 2012)

Phew, I tthought this was going to be about bananas or jelly babies!


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## screenman (12 Nov 2012)

GC, good points. I have never been able to understand the single occupancy thing with people going to work at the same place. I still think your thoughts are slightly selfish, then again I suppose you would be happy to pay all the extra costs of transportation etc.

That said myself and my family would all rather cycle to work than drive if that was at all possible.


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## GrumpyGregry (12 Nov 2012)

screenman said:


> GC, good points. I have never been able to understand the single occupancy thing with people going to work at the same place. I still think *your thoughts are slightly selfish*, then again I suppose you would be happy to pay all the extra costs of transportation etc.
> 
> That said myself and my family would all rather cycle to work than drive if that was at all possible.


Guilty as charged but then I'm not burning the earth's limited fossil fuels and polluting the place to get to work which gives me a certain sense of moral superiority over those who are.

and yes, I'd happily pay more for goods and services if increased fuel costs for transport of goods saw a decrease in the use of private cars. No one has ever shown me the sums which demonstrate the cost of my weekly shop is going to go up by a material amount if the costs of fuel goes up by 3 or 30 or 300 ppl.

When I rule the world I'll let hauliers and public transport providers claim rebates on their fuel taxes and subsidise them from the taxes raised on private motor vehicles.


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## snorri (12 Nov 2012)

The fact is we have lived with cheap road fuel for 60 years and designed our built environment and adjusted our lifestyles accordingly. There must be change now, some will suffer more than others, but I am sure there will be opportunities too for those that can spot them.


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## subaqua (12 Nov 2012)

what makes me laugh is those that bemoan the rise but fly on a regular basis.

I am with Greg on this. and just to ensure some people don't think i have an easy life with bikes and public transport in London. i grew up in rural wales. we coped on crap public transport and bikes. i went to college 12 miles away on public transport and my bike.


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## Drago (12 Nov 2012)

I think they should double the duty on fuel sold for private use.


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## screenman (12 Nov 2012)

And you lot wonder why motorists do not like you.


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## Alun (12 Nov 2012)

mcshroom said:


> Pump prices have dropped by more than 3p a litre in the last few weeks anyway.
> 
> The fuel escalator was introduced to discourage car usage, yet now it's starting to actually have an effect the politicians are getting scared.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15176330
The fuel escalator was introduced to increase tax revenue, the fall in usage might threaten that !
The Chancellor will be wondering where he can make up the shortfall.


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## screenman (12 Nov 2012)

By introducing tax on cyclists of course, any motorist will tell you that is the way.


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## subaqua (12 Nov 2012)

screenman said:


> And you lot wonder why motorists do not like you.


 
maybe because we can plan journeys, and not resort to "must use car " mentality . wifey drives eldest to swimming Galas. I use public transport. guess who eldest wants to take her more. answer might shock you- yes me on the public transport.
guess who gets to leave later and gets home quicker than the other squad members who get driven there.
the one in Colchester will be fun to plan !!


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## Davidc (12 Nov 2012)

3p in one go isn't huge, but go to 30p and the shock would be too much for many businesses.

At 3p those who don't want to contribute more to deficit reduction have choices.

Walk or cycle the school run
Walk or cycle for shopping except perhaps for the big load once a week - even that could be done online delivered.
Walk or cycle for other short trips as well
Cut out unnecessary trips altogether
Combine car journeys to reduce mileage.
When they have to drive do so in the most economical way possible, including slowing down.
Longer term, buy more economical cars

Even without tax increases fuel & other energy sources will increase in price in future, so we'd all better get used to it.


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## MrGrumpy (12 Nov 2012)

Well once upon a time we had to drive an extra 200miles a week taking junior to swimming training and galas, not everyone has facilities on their door step. I'm defo in the cycle everywhere camp but I'm also a realist in that the car is a necessity for us. Wife's uni is a 60 mile round trip balancing that with child care timing I.e getting home on time then car it is public transport is just not upto it. On the matter of public transport it's not cheap is it? Above inflation rises year on year for the train! UK Plc is fecked end off!


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## GrumpyGregry (13 Nov 2012)

screenman said:


> And you lot wonder why motorists do not like you.


I am a motorist.


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## screenman (13 Nov 2012)

No your not, you are a cyclist who happens to use a car, sometimes.


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## subaqua (13 Nov 2012)

MrGrumpy said:


> Well once upon a time we had to drive an extra 200miles a week taking junior to swimming training and galas, not everyone has facilities on their door step. I'm defo in the cycle everywhere camp but I'm also a realist in that the car is a necessity for us. Wife's uni is a 60 mile round trip balancing that with child care timing I.e getting home on time then car it is public transport is just not upto it. On the matter of public transport it's not cheap is it? Above inflation rises year on year for the train! UK Plc is fecked end off!


 

we have to travel out to deepest essex for a lot of the galas. i know when next yrs Galas for eldest are so have got tickets for some already. saved quite a lot. planning is all it takes as i said. I agree a car is a neccesity for some things. for us for holidays it most defo is. but we don't jet off spunking avgas and CO2 by the tonne, and we keep money in the UK economy.

i would say 90% of my journeys are by public transport or cycle.


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## GrumpyGregry (19 Nov 2012)

screenman said:


> No your not, you are a cyclist who happens to use a car, sometimes.


No one uses their car all the time. 

Feel free to spell out what your qualifying criteria for being a motorist actually are so we motorists can ridicule them. I suspect the criteria for being a 'motorist' will focus on almost complete reliance on the car as an enabler of lifestyle and employment, aka petrol addiction, with a similar almost complete refusal to acknowledge the existence of choices in the matter aka blinkers. 

But I'd love, for once, to be wrong about this so I'm all ears....


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## Lurker (20 Nov 2012)

GregCollins said:


> ... I suspect the criteria for being a 'motorist' will focus on almost complete reliance on the car as an enabler of lifestyle and employment, aka petrol addiction, with a similar almost complete refusal to acknowledge the existence of choices in the matter aka blinkers.....


 
, in combination with a complete unwillingness or inability to appreciate that the use of one's car worsens the travelling environment for everyone else....


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## benb (20 Nov 2012)

GregCollins said:


> 49% of the population in England and Wales who travel less than 5 km to work
> 68% of the population in England and Wales who travel less than 10 km to work
> 83% of the population in England and Wales who travel less than 20 km to work


 
Those figures are interesting. Have you got a source for them?


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## GrumpyGregry (20 Nov 2012)

benb said:


> Those figures are interesting. Have you got a source for them?


You know how it is Ben, you make up statistics on the spot to win an argument...












...or you get them from the Office for National Statisitics via the folk at CEoGB


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## benb (20 Nov 2012)

GregCollins said:


> You know how it is Ben, you make up statistics on the spot to win an argument...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
That's great, thanks.


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## benb (20 Nov 2012)

GregCollins said:


> You know how it is Ben, you make up statistics on the spot to win an argument...
> ...or you get them from the Office for National Statisitics via the folk at CEoGB


 
Although, I can't see that it says what proportion of these journeys was made by what mode of transport. Anyone know if that data is available?


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## Scruffmonster (20 Nov 2012)

mcshroom said:


> Pump prices have dropped by more than 3p a litre in the last few weeks anyway.
> 
> The fuel escalator was introduced to discourage car usage, yet now it's starting to actually have an effect the politicians are getting scared.


 
Mainly because we don't have rail and bus networks that can cope at the moment. If even 10% of motorists gave up cars on their commute, it would be chaos.

I'm speaking with reference to London mainly.


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## benb (20 Nov 2012)

Scruffmonster said:


> Mainly because we don't have rail and bus networks that can cope at the moment. If even 10% of motorists gave up cars on their commute, it would be chaos.
> 
> I'm speaking with reference to London mainly.


 
Not if they all cycled!


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## sabian92 (22 Nov 2012)

Sore Thumb said:


> http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20285940
> 
> I don't mind the rise, if it discourages people out of their cars.
> 
> ...


 
First world problems, eh....

As for the increase, maybe it's good. Maybe it'll get more people in cars off their fat arses and doing the run to the shops or school on their legs, not on their arse.


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## subaqua (22 Nov 2012)

well fuel here seems to have gone down about 3p per litre. so its likely the rise is coming in , which it needs to.


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## sabian92 (23 Nov 2012)

subaqua said:


> well fuel here seems to have gone down about 3p per litre. so its likely the rise is coming in , which it needs to.


 
Why does it need to? Do you not think you pay _enough _tax to those fat cats in Downing Street?


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## 400bhp (23 Nov 2012)

User said:


> What evidence do you have for that assertion?


 
I'd be interested in that too.


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## 400bhp (23 Nov 2012)

sabian92 said:


> Why does it need to? Do you not think you pay _enough _tax to those fat cats in Downing Street?


 
Are you implying that the amount of tax we pay is directly correlated to the salary roll of MPs?


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## Alun (23 Nov 2012)

Scruffmonster said:


> Mainly because we don't have rail and bus networks that can cope at the moment. If even 10% of motorists gave up cars on their commute, it would be chaos.
> I'm speaking with reference to London mainly.





User said:


> What evidence do you have for that assertion?


I wonder what increase in passenger levels London's public transport system would be able to cope with during rush "hour"?
It seemed pretty stretched to me, on the few occasions I've been down there.


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## Scruffmonster (23 Nov 2012)

Alun said:


> I wonder what increase in passenger levels London's public transport system would be able to cope with during rush "hour"?
> It seemed pretty stretched to me, on the few occasions I've been down there.


 
The answer is close to zero. It's largely beyond capacity now. Most commuter trains into London have people standing for north of 30 minutes, large numbers have trains with no standing room left at all.

With regards to tubes, I can't imagine them running faster, or finding extra space for the kind of money that would be available for development.

Buses... remove lots of cars from the streets and maybe buses would get moving, but you'd have to get rid of a lot of cars.


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## subaqua (23 Nov 2012)

sabian92 said:


> Why does it need to? Do you not think you pay _enough _tax to those fat cats in Downing Street?


 because its a finite resource, private useage at current levels squanders it . too many people are getting in the car for a 2 minute trip that they could walk or use a bike.
Mrs Sub is one of these that gets in the car wqithout thinking about it. its not an easy task to break that mindset.
I take the kids swimming at a pool thats about a mile away. we walk it . rain snow fog etc. the eldest used to go with her mum and be driven- she now suggests that a lot of trips are walkable. so maybe if we can change the mindset of this generation fuel will last longer

I am no yogurt weaver either.


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## Scruffmonster (23 Nov 2012)

400bhp said:


> I'd be interested in that too.


 
My only evidence is first hand experience of the transport system now.

The train operators are only pushed to deliver a certain level of service, and on the flip side, are always looking to make profits on a massive scale.

Rush hour is a big problem. Technically, we have enough space to make it work. Make trains and train platforms 50% longer, have more of them. It's a simple solution but one that would cost billions at a time when nobody has any money.

The railways interest me. They seem to be designed on paper by people that have no grasp of the numbers. To my mind, commuter trains are too plush for their own good, costing too much, weighing too much, costing way too much to run.

The average London bound commuter train is built to hold approximately 480 People. (8 Carriages of 60 seats). It's a hefty assumption that they believed that those trains could run to a profit with one bum on every seat but I would imagine that's the point. Some horrible fag packet maths has that train valued at about £3840 in revenue. (Call it a very conservative £8 a seat. It costs that from my station and the train is always 90% full when it arrives, all of whom have paid more)

Considering the fact that most trains will have around 30-40 people standing per carriage, we can adjust that figure to a round £6k. Or £10k for a 12 carriage train. My station/route alone, for the 7-10am rush hour window will kick 12 trains into London Victoria for a value of £72k. Just over those 3 hours.

I know these numbers are very approximate, but they get big, quickly. If you stand on the platform at any major London station, you're seeing packed trains arrive every few minutes. I know there are costs involved, plus a daytime service to run, some of which probably run in the red, but the numbers involved are obscene.

Train companies are not forced to run humane services. They build plush trains that look pretty, built to hold 60 people comfortably per carriage. If it were me, I'd nationalise the whole lot, build trains with plastic seats, no internal glass, sure as hell no tables(?!?), straight hand rails, proper sliding windows, no air con, heaters with a thermostat and not just an on/off switch, no wifi, sectional luggage racks, at least one standing room only carriage (that would fill up last obviously), plus a bunch of other stuff I haven't thought of yet.

People need to face up to the fact that London and it's surrounding areas are massively overpopulated and while people may expect creature comforts, what they need is a functional rail service, capable of moving huge numbers of people, in an acceptable level of comfort, for two 3 hour blocks at the top and bottom of the day.

It's not that our railways couldn't cope with extra people, I'm sure it could cope with all cars being swapped for train tickets, but not with trains, and the operators set up in the manner that they are.

If you ever want to question the future of humanity, stand on a Platform at Clapham Junction at 8am, and watch a train leave every 30 seconds, full of sardine like humans eating armpits in a tin can with steamy windows.

So no, no evidence, but a bunch of thoughts and feelings.


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## Alun (23 Nov 2012)

Scruffmonster said:


> My only evidence is first hand experience of the transport system now.


Don't enter a helmet debate on these hallowed pages armed only with your "first hand experiences".
It'll be instantly dismissed as "anecdotal", and hence not worth a carrot!


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## srw (23 Nov 2012)

Here's another anecdote. Most of those packed trains go into London zone 1, where most of those commuters work. The number of people driving private cars in London zone 1 is minuscule. More people out of cars in Outer London, where trains are much less busy, would be good for everyone.


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## Scruffmonster (23 Nov 2012)

srw said:


> Here's another anecdote. Most of those packed trains go into London zone 1, where most of those commuters work.


 
This is true. My rant turned into one against train companies more than cars off of roads in the end.


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## Scruffmonster (23 Nov 2012)

srw said:


> More people out of cars in Outer London, where trains are much less busy, would be good for everyone.


 
Trains are not much less busy in outer London though. They're full of folks shlepping into Zone 1.


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## screenman (23 Nov 2012)

The old train line from where I live is now a Sustrans route. That is apart from 200 yards in either direction of an entrance which for some reason is a dog toilet.


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## GrumpyGregry (23 Nov 2012)

hardly anyone, as a % of those who travel in from outside London, drives a private car into zones 1 or 2 to get to work though surely? I'd doubt the sanity of anyone who did it regularly. As a resident of a commuter/dormitory town I don't know anyone who does so.


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## Alun (23 Nov 2012)

GregCollins said:


> hardly anyone, as a % of those who travel in from outside London, drives a private car into zones 1 or 2 to get to work though surely? I'd doubt the sanity of anyone who did it regularly. As a resident of a commuter/dormitory town I don't know anyone who does so.


If hardly anyone drives a car (as a %age) into central London during rush hour, then what's the problem?
The internal combustion engine is (apparently) the devil's work, avoid that and you should be able to sail in without any problems. I cycle 47 miles into work every day with 20kg in my panniers, and see no reason why everyone shouldn't do the same!


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## lukesdad (24 Nov 2012)

When all these folk give up their cars there is going to be one hell of a hole in the exchequer.


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## ufkacbln (24 Nov 2012)

There is a similar concept of revenue loss with healthy living

Sop Smoking and Drink Responsibly campaigns both incur revenue loss


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## subaqua (24 Nov 2012)

Scruffmonster said:


> My only evidence is first hand experience of the transport system now.
> 
> 
> 
> Rush hour is a big problem. Technically, we have enough space to make it work. Make trains and train platforms 50% longer, have more of them. It's a simple solution but one that would cost billions at a time when nobody has any money.


 
have a look at some of the suburban stations. there isn't the space to make platforms longer at a huge number of them. so you end up with a 2 tier service


Scruffmonster said:


> The railways interest me. They seem to be designed on paper by people that have no grasp of the numbers. To my mind, commuter trains are too plush for their own good, costing too much, weighing too much, costing way too much to run.


 
the victorians didn't do a bad job of building the railways. the TOCs are the one building plush carriages. a half empty/half full 1st class on a suburban commuter service is bonkers


Scruffmonster said:


> The average London bound commuter train is built to hold approximately 480 People. (8 Carriages of 60 seats). It's a hefty assumption that they believed that those trains could run to a profit with one bum on every seat but I would imagine that's the point. Some horrible fag packet maths has that train valued at about £3840 in revenue. (Call it a very conservative £8 a seat. It costs that from my station and the train is always 90% full when it arrives, all of whom have paid more)
> 
> Considering the fact that most trains will have around 30-40 people standing per carriage, we can adjust that figure to a round £6k. Or £10k for a 12 carriage train. My station/route alone, for the 7-10am rush hour window will kick 12 trains into London Victoria for a value of £72k. Just over those 3 hours.
> 
> ...


 thats why i started to cycle in to town. got sick of sweaty eastern european armpits in my face at 6am. but apparently thats racist if i say that.


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