# Illegal electric bikes



## ebikeerwidnes (18 Dec 2020)

Hi all
I have noticed recently that more illegal electric bike have been appearing - normally ridden by young (to me) people wearing a dark hoodie

Yesterday I stopped at a red light - a car stopped behind me in the one and only lane - and someone on an electric bike shot past - at speed - and went across the junction on red - doing a wheelie

no-one died - by luck

and I have seen several around in other areas

clearly we all know (on here anyway) that these are illegal in the UK unless specifically registered with the DVLA and has number plates, user wears a helmet etc etc

I was wondering if other people have seen an increase in the number on the road???

Thanks


----------



## fossyant (18 Dec 2020)

There are a number of MX bikes starting to appear, with the front triangle 'filled in' with battery. These are really motorbikes. Two lads had some on our caravan site - I reported them as the site have banned electric scooters too due to the risk to many elderly and young residents.

The MX bikes are quite expensive, but I've seen quite a few Chinese Fat bikes - they are about £1500, but will do in excess of 30mph. I've often seen a guy on a local shared use path with one of these. Fortunately he was only doing around 15 MPH, but given he was hardly pedaling, and I was killing myself on a full suspension MTB to catch him. The other issue is many of these have questionable components quality, especially brakes. 

Going at speed on one of these, with dodgy brakes is a recipe.

About 18 months ago I saw two young lads at Llandegla on these MX bikes, with an older guy (probably their dad) was on a 'normal' eMTB. If the lads on the electric MX bikes caused an accident there would be loads of legal consequences. These aren't allowed on the trails.


----------



## fossyant (18 Dec 2020)

We also have an issue with 'real' MX bikes and young lads. I'm just waiting for one of them to get a wobble pulling a wheelie down a main road and end up under a truck, it would be the truck drivers fault ! Thing is, everyone knows which area they are coming from, but the cops don't give a stuff.


----------



## ianrauk (18 Dec 2020)

Cycle commuting in London everyday I see a heck of a lot of leccy bikes. Ownership seems to be growing at a very quick rate.
Most seem to be ridden by uber eat or just eat delivery or suchlike. Most if not all of those bikes are definitely unrestricted.

Of the few 'normal' cycle commuters riding leccy bike's I see, I would say that 2 out of every 3 I see are unrestricted.

Am I bothered about these unrestricted bikes? No. Not in the slightest. Any form of alternative transport that get's people out of cars is fine with, and as long as they don't bother me, then more power to their unrestricted elbows.


----------



## DCLane (18 Dec 2020)

Locally there's a big increase near me as I'm in a hilly area. Some have lights but there's others that have no lights, unrestricted and behaving badly. It looks like they've moved from mountain bikes to modified e-bikes.


----------



## T4tomo (18 Dec 2020)

saw a chap riding / driving one last night, his legs were just dangling, not pedalling, no lights on a unit stretch of 40mph road, dressed in a dark hoodie


----------



## cyberknight (18 Dec 2020)

An illegal conversation jobbie parked at work ,they even took the chain off so it's all electric power


----------



## gbb (18 Dec 2020)

Seen one or two a while back but havn't seen any for a while.
Personally, i have seen some what appears to be ridiculous conversions, massive motors, 48v batteries that claim 30mph plus but it seems a bit shortsighted if a buyer doesnt realise the drain that is going to have on the battery...or the time such a big battery is going to need to recharge...and the lifespan of said battery is surely going to be significantly shorter...and very expensive to replace.
Seems to me people just see the extra speed benefit, but the drawbacks look significant.


----------



## matticus (18 Dec 2020)

Remember: one person in the _UK_ is injured
every 20 minutes


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (18 Dec 2020)

I agree with a lot of the above - if they are behaving reasonably - like not speeding down a track at 30 or blasting around ignoring other road users and expecting them to get out of the way then I don't have a problem

Of course - if it is a normal bike that someone had slammed a big motor in - but left the brakes as 15 year old rim brakes - then that is also a problem

My main worry is that there will be an accident - or several of them - and the Daily Fail (and others) will start a campaign and normal legal ebikes will get caught up in it. I like the current situation where my legal ebike can help me when I want but is looked at as a normal bike in all legal respects - I don't want some idiot on something else producing a backlash that messes up people like me.


----------



## kynikos (18 Dec 2020)

matticus said:


> Remember: one person in the _UK_ is injured
> every 20 minutes



Poor fellah, he must be very clumsy?


----------



## Drago (18 Dec 2020)

In the eyes of an aleady anti cycling public these illegal bikes are ridden by the illegitimate spawh of Satan and Bin Laden. Theyll get us either banned or regulated. Twits.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (18 Dec 2020)

Drago said:


> In the eyes of an aleady anti cycling public these illegal bikes are ridden by the illegitimate spawh of Satan and Bin Laden. Theyll get us either banned or regulated. Twits.



Wasn‘t it Bike Laden?


----------



## CanucksTraveller (18 Dec 2020)

YukonBoy said:


> Wasn‘t it Bike Laden?



No that's his brother, he's a paid up CTC member. I think they both wore sandals though.


----------



## Drago (18 Dec 2020)

Indeed. Bin Laden himself wasn't hard enough to survive on the CUK forum.


----------



## CXRAndy (18 Dec 2020)

gbb said:


> Seen one or two a while back but havn't seen any for a while.
> Personally, i have seen some what appears to be ridiculous conversions, massive motors, 48v batteries that claim 30mph plus but it seems a bit shortsighted if a buyer doesnt realise the drain that is going to have on the battery...or the time such a big battery is going to need to recharge...and the lifespan of said battery is surely going to be significantly shorter...and very expensive to replace.
> Seems to me people just see the extra speed benefit, but the drawbacks look significant.




Voltage is not a indicator of power. Only when current and voltage are multipled to give power capabilities.

Using a higher voltage reduces current demand to give the same power, thus reducing heat build up in the Motor windings 

Batteries will last along time if you care for them and dont overcharge or run flat

My battery is protected by minimum voltage on the controller, so the system will shut down before batteries get too low


I use a 52V battery and use open software to tweak the motor power delivery for increased range. I have limited max current availability to the motor drive thus keeping temperature in control. 

Dont get me wrong, if I were to stupid, I could set the motor to run at 750W constant and at speed over 25 mph- I dont. 

It allows my wife to do long rides upto 50 miles at my pace which averages out around 14 mph. She can however destroy me on any incline by selecting a higher power setting. Her bike is a shopper with panniers, full time dynamo lights, we carry picnics, chairs when going for a ride out.

Folks can use ebikes with responsible attitudes


----------



## Rusty Nails (18 Dec 2020)

I regularly get overtaken in my car by e-bikers when I am doing 20 mph in our local 20 mph zones.

They are hardly pedalling, how can that be 

They are all Deliveroo riders.


----------



## CXRAndy (18 Dec 2020)

Rusty Nails said:


> I regularly get overtaken in my car by e-bikers when I am doing 20 mph in our local 20 mph zones.
> 
> They are hardly pedalling, how can that be
> 
> They are all Deliveroo riders.



Its likely they are using a speed motor, not a torque sensing system. Any pedal rotation will give a specific power output. For them to do 20+ indicates they are using open software or a addon speed defeat box. 

Personally, I believe 20mph should be the max speed before assistance is stopped. It would make ebikes more desirable for commuters, allow the users to travel more aligned with cars in cities/towns. Its all how the power is delivered, not the speed. A steady progressive increase in power will suit the vast majority


----------



## Drago (18 Dec 2020)

And the dibble are now being taught what to look for with tuning boxes and dongles. It aint difficult - if you can follow a wire from one end to the other, you can locate such a device.

It's hardly worth the risk of riding otherwise in accordance with a licence, no mot, no insirance etc, but no insurance is the real kicker. Thats a dishonesty offence, shows up on a CRB check, so you can kiss goodbye to ever working in public services, healthcare, or with children etc, and youll get anally invaded for car insurance prices with that on your record. 

From what im hearing (one of my chums good old days is head of roads policing in Poshshire) theyre also aware that a lot of chinese kits have 750 or 1000 watt motors, but theyll generally leave you alone if theyre set up within the spirit of the law, ie, pedal assistance only and not pure electric power, 15.5mph cut out, etc. Remember, that's only discretionary, so if you do ride one like that be polite and contrite when the dibble stop you.


----------



## Rusty Nails (18 Dec 2020)

CXRAndy said:


> Its likely they are using a speed motor, not a torque sensing system. Any pedal rotation will give a specific power output. For them to do 20+ indicates they are using open software or a addon speed defeat box.
> 
> Personally, I believe 20mph should be the max speed before assistance is stopped. It would make ebikes more desirable for commuters, allow the users to travel more aligned with cars in cities/towns. Its all how the power is delivered, not the speed. A steady progressive increase in power will suit the vast majority



I don't really have a precise view about what the max should be, but is it not the case that if you make more powerful bike motors that have power assistance up to any speed you will get people who will fiddle the systems to increase that speed?

I am a bit concerned about the safety aspects of an increasing number of e-bikes (and e-scooters) that can be doctored are used by people who have little or no training. Tbf I would also be concerned if a lot of leg-powered bikes started being ridden round our city streets at 30+kph.


----------



## wajc (18 Dec 2020)

Can't say I've seen any obvious illegal e-bikes in my area of the country but I was passed last night by someone on a monowheel when I was doing 20mph on a public road. I'd estimate his speed at a little under 25mph

Typical Monowheel.

Got to applaud their efforts to be visible and as safe as possible though - wearing a full face helmet, motorcycle style clothing and what looks like some sort of harness on their back covered in LED lights, as well as a very visible front light on the thing itself (although quite puzzling when you first see it as it is so low to the ground). However I wonder how quick you are able to stop on one of those things in an emergency?

I've actually seen this person on several occasions over the past year including on busy commuting roads in and out of Lincoln and have wondered how he hasn't been stopped yet as there is no doubt over it's legality.


----------



## glasgowcyclist (19 Dec 2020)

Drago said:


> but no insurance is the real kicker. Thats a dishonesty offence, shows up on a CRB check, so you can kiss goodbye to ever working in public services, healthcare, or with children etc



My understanding, and I could be wrong, is that no insurance is a non-recordable offence and does not show up on any DBS check except where the person was convicted of a recordable offence at the same time, e.g. drunk driving.


----------



## Pale Rider (19 Dec 2020)

glasgowcyclist said:


> My understanding, and I could be wrong, is that no insurance is a non-recordable offence and does not show up on any DBS check except where the person was convicted of a recordable offence at the same time, e.g. drunk driving.



I think that's correct, although disbarring checks are far from simple.

There's an ordinary one and an enhanced one, depending on the role applied for.

I once saw the reply to a disbarring check, several pages, there was a lot more information on it than a simple pass or fail, although I can't remember exactly what it contained.

In other words, the applying organisation is given some information on which to make a judgment.

One might think a conviction for no insurance, even if disclosed, might not cause the applying organisation to reject the applicant - depending on the role they were applying for.

Then there's the complicated matter of spent convictions.

A relatively minor offence such as no insurance will now deemed to be spent after a year.

I think that means it will not show on a regular check, but might on an enhanced one.


----------



## Drago (19 Dec 2020)

glasgowcyclist said:


> My understanding, and I could be wrong, is that no insurance is a non-recordable offence and does not show up on any DBS check except where the person was convicted of a recordable offence at the same time, e.g. drunk driving.


It does show on DBS checks, at elast in Engerlund. Mrs D has fairly recently turned down someone for a job because of it (before anyone bleats she didn't tell me who, or for what job, or anything else, and I didn't ask - she only mentioned it as I'd raised the topic with her before and it was the first time she'd encountered it herself). That would be an enhanced check for her work, not sure if a regular one would show it.


----------



## CXRAndy (28 Dec 2020)

Im in negotiations to import a full suspension commuter with a Bafang Ultra drive. Where we are moving there are miles of off-road trails to enjoy 1000 Watts.


----------



## gbb (29 Dec 2020)

CXRAndy said:


> Voltage is not a indicator of power. Only when current and voltage are multipled to give power capabilities.
> 
> Using a higher voltage reduces current demand to give the same power, thus reducing heat build up in the Motor windings
> 
> ...


I realise voltage doesnt equate to power, I may have not worded it very well, my inference is that these drives require large batteries, large equals considerably more expensive to buy initially, considerably more expensive to replace when theyve been well used. But I am a tight wad


----------



## CXRAndy (29 Dec 2020)

gbb said:


> I realise voltage doesnt equate to power, I may have not worded it very well, my inference is that these drives require large batteries, large equals considerably more expensive to buy initially, considerably more expensive to replace when theyve been well used. But I am a tight wad



A good battery which isn't overcharged or let to go too low should give upto 3000 recharge cycles. Abused battery may last less than a 1000 cycles.

A difference of say 10 years careful battery care or less than 3 years for a neglected battery


----------



## CXRAndy (31 Dec 2020)

My order has now been confirmed. I will now need to wait several months for delivery. 

The specifications are very much on par with Riese Muller Superdelite full suspension but with a chunk of extra oomph in the motor department and way less than half the money.

I'm hoping to future proof my riding.


----------



## mythste (31 Dec 2020)

CXRAndy said:


> My order has now been confirmed. I will now need to wait several months for delivery.
> 
> The specifications are very much on par with Riese Muller Superdelite full suspension but with a chunk of extra oomph in the motor department and way less than half the money.
> 
> I'm hoping to future proof my riding.



Is it "legal" by UK standards? I don't mean to be contentious, I'm just curious as to how people who are actually in the market for such a machine are viewing what I tend to look at as mostly arbitrary restriction numbers (in terms of wattage and pedal assist).


----------



## Pale Rider (31 Dec 2020)

mythste said:


> Is it "legal" by UK standards?



No, which is presumably why the purchase has been posted in an 'illegal ebikes' thread.

Possessing, buying, and selling this bike/motor is fully legal.

Using it anywhere to which the public has access is not legal.

That makes the bike all but unusable legally for all of us.

All roads, trails, and cycle paths are definitely out.

If you owned an enclosed field, you could use it there, provided there were no footpaths across the land or any right to roam which exists in Scotland, if not elsewhere.

You could use it at a recognised motorsport event, in the same way it's legal for Lewis to razz his Mercedes F1 car around Silverstone.

Permission from the landowner is a possibility, but no one, whether they own land or not, can give you permission to break the law.

I think you would still be in difficulty in the unlikely event something went badly wrong.

For example, if you knocked over and killed someone on the private land, even if they didn't have permission to be there and you did.


----------



## CXRAndy (31 Dec 2020)

Where we are moving, I'll have acess to quite a bit of private land. The bike is nearly speed pedelec compliant. With a few small changes it would pass IVA. 

Ive no initial interest in riding at 28 mph due to range restrictions. I will ride at reduced power to find max reliable range. Im more interested in zone 2 riding whatever the terrain. 

The future might bring legislation changes allowing me to ride with more speed, but who knows


----------



## flake99please (3 Jan 2021)

I was staggered to see several commercials on YouTube recently advertising a product to break the law with. It beggars belief to see such advertisements on there. 

Product in question.


----------



## CXRAndy (3 Jan 2021)

Demand for something normally means what's being offered is not upto snuff. More powerful ebikes are in demand. 


A bit like Scooters which were banned. but the government saw many were using them so have allowed there use. Albeit in a trial, but its really just a step to full rollout. 

For fitness, an ebike is far more beneficial than just standing on a motorised skateboard


----------



## rogerzilla (3 Jan 2021)

flake99please said:


> I was staggered to see several commercials on YouTube recently advertising a product to break the law with. It beggars belief to see such advertisements on there.
> 
> Product in question.


I think Google dropped the "don't be evil" philosophy a while ago and are just corporate whores these days.


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (4 Jan 2021)

Demand for something normally means what's being offered is not upto snuff. More powerful ebikes are in demand. 


Well - OK - generally yes

but

it can also mean that people WANT something more
but that does NOT mean they should be allowed to have it

so e.g.
people WANT to have the motorway speed limit raised quite a lot - government even said they were going to do so (OK only to 80) and got a lot of praise for it
a lot of people seem to say that if they have a car that do 190 mph then they should be allowed to go WAY faster than 70 because the car is SOOO much better made and has much better brakes etc etc

but we are supposed to make laws and regulations based on what is good for the People as a whole

not just a small group that want something

if there was a referendum on raising whether these illegal bikes should be banned then the majority of the population would say no


look the the petition thread

and look at the previous almost identical petition - both asking for an increase to the cutoff speed

lots of people saying it was ESSENTIAL

then when asked to sign the petition we find loads more people who say - NAH - don't agree - no signing
but previously they were silent and just ignoring the shouting

now I'll duck and wait for the flack


----------



## CXRAndy (4 Jan 2021)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> now I'll duck and wait for the flack


No need to duck away, everyone has their own opinion


----------



## confusedcyclist (4 Jan 2021)

Now I appreciate we have laws for a reason, but we've got a lot more to worry about on our roads than idiots with unrestricted ebikes, such as idiots with unrestricted 300bhp 2 tonne motors. Can't say I've noticed an increase in ebike use locally. I'm one of the rare few to use one at work. I hardly ever see the unrestricted subset here in Bradford/Kirklees. I'm content with my 15.5mph ebike. Too much faster and demands on the ebike battery, motor longevity and environmentally friendly credentials start going out of the window.


----------



## confusedcyclist (4 Jan 2021)

flake99please said:


> I was staggered to see several commercials on YouTube recently advertising a product to break the law with. It beggars belief to see such advertisements on there.
> 
> Product in question.


I recall reading Bosch went to great lengths to make the 4th Gen motors difficult to delimit because they are worried that there will be legislative crackdown, but also to protect them from warranty claims resulting in motor abuse. It looks like these hackers yet again found a way to trick the system, when you stop riding the computer has been duped into detecting movement so it doesn't trip the delimiter detection system, can't say I'd want to use this on my commute if I have to hang around for 5 minutes whilst my bike computer catches up with me. 

FYI, these systems are perfectly legal to use on private land, so youtube isn't technically advertising any illegal goods. Just as John Lewis are not responsible for my use of a heavy cast iron pan supplied by them in anger. The law breaking is done when the user applies the goods in an "unintended manner".

I can see how a trail rider in particular might benefit from this system which is easy to turn on and off. I'm impressed with it really, but not for me!


----------



## Pale Rider (5 Jan 2021)

The illegal bikes could only be legal for use on private land - to which the public has no access.

The last bit is crucial, because it means all trails and cycle paths are out.

Things get even more complicated, because if the rider knocks over and kills someone in his own enclosed field, the rider could still be liable even though the victim was trespassing.

Chances of that happening are vanishingly low, but as we all know collisions on trails and cycle paths do happen.


----------



## the snail (5 Jan 2021)

Pale Rider said:


> Things get even more complicated, because if the rider knocks over and kills someone in his own enclosed field, the rider could still be liable even though the victim was trespassing.


The rider could just as easily be liable if riding a legal ebike or non ebike, the type of bike would only matter if it could be shown to contribute to the accident.


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (5 Jan 2021)

If you are on a public trail/track/path/road the cops could still do you for not having insurance, MOT, Helmet and stuff as it could be classed as a moped
And if speed was considered to be a factor then you could claim that the rider would have been going slower if the bike had been less powerful.


----------



## CXRAndy (5 Jan 2021)

Incidents of cyclists hitting people is rather rare(even with some behaving recklessly). Yes there have been a few highly publicised incidents, but again rare. So unless you're being a numpty, chances of incidents is not really worrying about, especially for those being mostly responsible.


Besides the police are not doing a thing about groups of youths riding London's roads, paths, shopping malls doing wheelies nearly all the time.

This numpty openly streams their rides in London, with apparently no repercussions 

View: https://youtu.be/-TX9oBcgjRk


----------



## rogerzilla (10 Jan 2021)

One day he'll end up under a lorry and not everyone will be sorry.

Is it just me, or does his front wheel need truing?


----------



## RichardB (10 Jan 2021)

I'd be very tempted to give him a firm nudge in the ribs as he passed. Sorry, mate, didn't see yer, just demonstrating this karate punch to my mate as we walked along.


----------



## gbb (10 Jan 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> Incidents of cyclists hitting people is rather rare(even with some behaving recklessly). Yes there have been a few highly publicised incidents, but again rare. So unless you're being a numpty, chances of incidents is not really worrying about, especially for those being mostly responsible.
> 
> 
> Besides the police are not doing a thing about groups of youths riding London's roads, paths, shopping malls doing wheelies nearly all the time.
> ...



Impressive skills...until he knocked over a ped, mother and pram or similar, then he would rightly face the wrath of the law and public media. I was young and stupid once...you learn....hopefully without hurting anyone.


----------



## roley poley (10 Jan 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> Incidents of cyclists hitting people is rather rare(even with some behaving recklessly). Yes there have been a few highly publicised incidents, but again rare. So unless you're being a numpty, chances of incidents is not really worrying about, especially for those being mostly responsible.
> 
> 
> Besides the police are not doing a thing about groups of youths riding London's roads, paths, shopping malls doing wheelies nearly all the time.
> ...



at 4.48 his mate knocks a kid over and he leaves it on his site for us all to see !!!


----------



## ericmark (23 Jan 2021)

I have been reading with interest what has been said, I want an ebike, my wife already has one, but would be nice if I have over stretched myself to be able to return just with motor, no pedalling. I saw this advert and it says


> *No road tax, No license required, insurance not legally required and no MOT or DVLA registration.*
> Fun2ride Bikes will appeal to teenagers wanting to ride them to and from school or for parents who are fed up with driving their kids to school. They are also suitability for drivers who lost their driving License.


So if that can be ridden with no pedalling why can't any other bike be ridden in the same way? I have a motorbike licence and would not mind having a more powerful unit, however I want to carry it, and use it on cycle tracks, so at the moment hanging back until I can go to a bike shop and select my new mount.

The question is folding or not. With folding can carry on any car, and when parked it is secure, but the larger wheels of the non folding are more stable and mid motor uses the bikes gears so better at hill climbing where the folding normally motor built into wheel, would like more than 250 watt, but know 250 watt will get me home.

As to speed, main problem is armaco barriers, hit by a car and pushed through hedge or fence is bad, but armaco barriers have no give, and tend to be on corners where the motorist can't see you until last minute, so being able to go a little faster so cars don't need to brake so hard, seems a good idea.

To go from where I live to Welshpool three routes, the main road cars go too fast, the other road I take bike for a walk as too steep, so £3:50 for a railway ticket for bike seems the best option, when it's running of course. But that means carrying the bike onto the train, normally put in wheel chair area, have considered a bike rack for last coach, but still have to get it on/off train, bike is charged same as dog. I have season ticket last 3 years, just pay for bike. 

So weight is a factor, well know on railway so likely would get a hand, but what to answer questions before I buy.


----------



## glasgowcyclist (23 Jan 2021)

ericmark said:


> So if that can be ridden with no pedalling why can't any other bike be ridden in the same way?



That vehicle, from the seller’s own video, shows that it is not an electrically assisted pedal cycle as it is operated by a twist and go throttle. Basically, he’s lying about its status as an EAPC to sell something that needs a licence and insurance.


----------



## HMS_Dave (23 Jan 2021)

What a waste of money that lump of scrap is... personally I think they're deliberately attempting to muddy the water on the rules and I'm not sure that is actually legal with just a twist throttle... Many cycle routes are shared use, and using what is essentially a moped, let's be just honest about that, is going to attract unwanted attention by the police and the national press and guess what? Cyclist will be in the firing line again, you can be sure of that...


----------



## johnnyb47 (23 Jan 2021)

I can see E Bikes becoming a big headache for the law in the future.
When they first came on the scene they were very expensive, and the majority of people who bought them would of been more mature sensible people. As time has passed, the prices of E bikes and E bike kits have dropped and will continue to in the future.
They will soon fall into the price were there in reach of everyone. If it's the choice between a moped or an illegal E bike that can reach the same speed i would think alot of youngsters would opt for the E bike. You can ride an illegal e bike around the streets at a steady 15mph and the police wouldn't take a second look and then when the coast is clear ride it however you want. There's no registration plate for the police to see or check, no tax, mot or insurance needed either making these fast illegal E bikes a great alternative to a moped.
It will be the minority of law breaking illegal ebike users that will spoil it for the law abiding ones by the government clamping down on them with new rules on there use


----------



## MrGrumpy (23 Jan 2021)

It won’t be long till you need to have insurance etc for an e bike . The local plod round here are certainly cracking down on electric scooters at the moment as well. There is absolutely no need for the assisted limit to be increased IMO neither. If you want to go faster assisted buy a motor bike !


----------



## RichardB (24 Jan 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> If you want to go faster assisted buy a motor bike !



I'm in an ebike group on Facebook, and this comment is made regularly, causing the regulars* to get very aggressive. Basically, a lot of people seem to want a bicycle which will do 30+ mph with no pedalling, and yet can't see that this is what a moped literally is. I just don't get it. I've ridden motorbikes all my life and love them to bits, and if I want to do 30+ without pedalling I know exactly what to do. Buy another one! But an ebike is totally different. Having to pedal is part of the deal, and losing the assistance above a certain speed is also part of the deal. There's no fitness benefit to motorcycles, and nor with an ebike that you don't have to pedal.

As far as I can see, the pedelec industry worked very hard with the Westminster govt and the EU to get pedelecs (with limited power and assisted pedalling only) categorised as bicycles in terms of usage and access. You can ride a pedelec anywhere you can ride a bicycle, and you don't need a lot of paperwork either, just like a bicycle. To me, this is an ideal situation, and I don't want to see it spoiled. I'm very happy with 250W and 15.5 mph. I wouldn't be happy with more powerful and faster machines mixing it with pedestrians on shared pathways. That would surely lead to more restrictions, requirements for insurance etc, which would take away the entire point of having a pedelec.

*I'm guessing that they are younger riders, as per @johnnyb47's comments about the age profile above.


----------



## ericmark (24 Jan 2021)

I am pleased to be considered as a younger rider, but at 70 don't think I really fall into that group, I want to be able to ride free of car and wagon traffic, however I have to go 8 miles before I can do that, and unless the heritage railway is running the route to the canal tow path is really a bit too steep for me, I end up taking my bike for a walk. But it is also winding so really need a turn of speed to be safe. I have over done it in the past and had to ring for assistance, and the problem is lifting the bike onto a bike rack, so when I have had enough, to be able to use it without pedalling would be a bonus, don't want the scooter, but do want option not to pedal when I have had enough. At one time that scooter would have been permitted, but I thought that option had been removed, but the add seems to say that option is open again.


----------



## Pale Rider (24 Jan 2021)

ericmark said:


> but the add seems to say that option is open again.



It hasn't been.

As other posters have said, that advert is simply dishonest and nastily misleading because anyone taking it at face value could get into bother with the law.

You could register, tax, and insure it, wear a helmet, and use your motorbike licence to ride it.

But that would be pointless in comparison to a petrol scooter which would be faster, more powerful have a usable range, and be properly engineered with decent brakes.

What you seek from an ebike is not possible, not least because not pedalling is not legal.

In any case, while a 250 watt motor would pull you along unaided on the flat, it would not have enough grunt to climb hills - unless you assist it by pedalling.


----------



## glasgowcyclist (24 Jan 2021)

ericmark said:


> I thought that option had been removed, but the add seems to say that option is open again.



The advertiser is lying, pure and simple.

If it can be ridden on the throttle only then it needs type approval and you’ll need everything you would for a motorcycle; licence, insurance, VED, helmet etc.


----------



## RichardB (24 Jan 2021)

ericmark said:


> when I have had enough, to be able to use it without pedalling would be a bonus



In which case, you want a light motorcycle or moped.

As others have said, the advert is highly misleading. It misrepresents the law. OK, they are lying to you.

Edit: have reported the ad to ebay. Not that I expect them to do anything, but we can try.


----------



## rogerzilla (24 Jan 2021)

My dad's old Powabyke Salisbury had a twist and go throttle, and it wasn't in any way modified. I think the lower-end manufacturers just ignore the regs (in the same way that cheap DVD players ignore region coding, although that is definitely a good thing).


----------



## RichardB (24 Jan 2021)

rogerzilla said:


> My dad's old Powabyke Salisbury had a twist and go throttle, and it wasn't in any way modified. I think the lower-end manufacturers just ignore the regs (in the same way that cheap DVD players ignore region coding, although that is definitely a good thing).



Older ebikes can have a throttle. The regs changed around 2013. My Wisper has a twist throttle and was legal at the time of sale (2014) although it will only propel the bike unassisted up to 4 mph by design. Your Dad's Powabike was and is quite legal to use, but it would fall foul of the regs if it was sold today.

The scooter in the ad is just taking the mick, to be honest.


----------



## fossyant (24 Jan 2021)

ericmark said:


> , but do want option not to pedal when I have had enough.



At this point it becomes a motor vehicle in the eyes of the law. A mechanically propelled vehicle. Tax and insurance would apply. Your best option at this point would be to increase the 'boost' setting if tired on a 'normal' ebike.


----------



## DaveReading (24 Jan 2021)

johnnyb47 said:


> When they first came on the scene they were very expensive, and the majority of people who bought them would have been more mature sensible well-off people.



FTFY.


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (24 Jan 2021)

RichardB said:


> Older ebikes can have a throttle. The regs changed around 2013. My Wisper has a twist throttle and was legal at the time of sale (2014) although it will only propel the bike unassisted up to 4 mph by design. Your Dad's Powabike was and is quite legal to use, but it would fall foul of the regs if it was sold today.
> 
> The scooter in the ad is just taking the mick, to be honest.


The regs actually changed on 1st Jan 2016 - any bike first sold or made or imported before that date could have a throttle - but there were other regs it had to comply with as well
including a max motor power of 200W rather than 250W for current regs
I know this because I also used to have a Powacycle Salisbury. It was nice to have the throttle - but basically the technology was old all over as well as being made to the old regs

I also find that if you have a basic rear hub ebike you can kinda cheat by rotating the pedals slowly with almost no pressure and the motor will cut in because they oftne have a simple rotation sensor and not proper torque sensor. This happened with the old Powacycle - and also works with my wife's folding Carrera ebike - although the Carrera is a bit more difficult to fool it can be don


----------



## RichardB (24 Jan 2021)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> The regs actually changed on 1st Jan 2016 - any bike first sold or made or imported before that date could have a throttle - but there were other regs it had to comply with as well
> including a max motor power of 200W rather than 250W for current regs
> I know this because I also used to have a Powacycle Salisbury. It was nice to have the throttle - but basically the technology was old all over as well as being made to the old regs



Thanks for the correction. My Wisper must have been made in the intermediate period, as it has a throttle (although restricted to a 'walk along' speed), but the motor is a full 250W.


----------



## ericmark (25 Jan 2021)

As far as I am aware the 4 MPH walk assist is still OK? My wife's bike is mid engine, so it works through the gears, and using the gears I can just about get it home from the main road, and in the main does all we want, but there are some draw backs.

The weight means can carry and electric and standard bike on the tow ball cycle rack, but not two electric bikes.
The non folding bike is easy to steal from the car.
I can only carry them with the large car with tow bracket. 
It is a bit on the big side to carry on the train, the 90 deg turn is main problem, carriage is designed for wheel chairs, but they are shorter.
Not permitted on the bus.

So was looking at folding bikes, as more secure in boot of car, and can carry in small car, likely permitted on bus, but it does not drive through the gears, so likely lower hill climbing ability, remember I live in Wales. So aim was to go to Shrewsbury and test some bikes. But Colvid 19 put the brakes on, with no trains running could hardly use the bike anyway, so decided to wait. Don't want illegal, yes tempting to zip along at 20 MPH and likely safer on these roads, but as said may as well get a moped to do that, the bike is for two things, one keep me fit, two allow me to take photos, being able to stop anywhere along the road is what I want, also being able to lift the bike over a gate before leaving it to walk further, so weight is a consideration, being like the mobility scooter would be good so and split into manageable parts. 

So at moment just gathering info, so when I can use one I can get best for me. Other option and still seems good option is leave a bike at Welshpool train station, so no need to carry it, just collect it when I arrive, since I normally volunteer at the railway that is likely possible. I have an old mountain bike that if stolen would not upset me too much. But the train no longer goes through the town, so still a hill between the cut and the railway.


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (25 Jan 2021)

ericmark said:


> As far as I am aware the 4 MPH walk assist is still OK? My wife's bike is mid engine, so it works through the gears, and using the gears I can just about get it home from the main road, and in the main does all we want, but there are some draw backs.
> 
> The weight means can carry and electric and standard bike on the tow ball cycle rack, but not two electric bikes.
> The non folding bike is easy to steal from the car.
> ...


Don't eliminate hub drive for hills
My main ebike is centre drive - but my wife has a folder (Carrera) which has a cheap hub system. Last year went managed to get a holiday in Cornwall we folded it up and chucked it in the back of the car just in case
We were staying at a site quite inland - hence a lot of those short VERY steep roads with lots of bends and the thing just went up them with no problem
Yes - I had to pedal - and put in some effort - and Yes I may have had to use high assists at times
but it coped with no problems
My posh - and much more expensive - Bosch mid drive would not have been much better - if at all!

As far as weight goes - the folder could easily be lifted over a gate - my full size one as well.
But the folder would be far easier - just fold it and lift it - the weight on a full size bike makes it very awkward to lift high


----------



## CXRAndy (25 Jan 2021)

My order for an ebike has gone into the production. Not exactly sure what that means, whether its on a list or is being constructed. 

My bike will weigh 32kg, being a long wheelbase full suspension plus panniers and extra battery, more like 40-45kg


----------



## MrGrumpy (25 Jan 2021)




----------



## ianrauk (25 Jan 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> My bike will weigh 32kg, being a long wheelbase full suspension plus panniers and extra battery, more like 40-45kg


Blimey....make sure you get a kick stand for it. Have that fall on you and you'll know it.


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (25 Jan 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> My order for an ebike has gone into the production. Not exactly sure what that means, whether its on a list or is being constructed.
> 
> My bike will weigh 32kg, being a long wheelbase full suspension plus panniers and extra battery, more like 40-45kg


WOW - sounds impressive


details required!!!

and a photo when it arrives


----------



## CXRAndy (26 Jan 2021)

All in good time


----------



## iluvmybike (26 Jan 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> My order for an ebike has gone into the production. Not exactly sure what that means, whether its on a list or is being constructed.
> 
> My bike will weigh 32kg, being a long wheelbase full suspension plus panniers and extra battery, more like 40-45kg


Flippin' heck - that is between 70-90lbs!!! Wouldn't like to have to heave that around...good luck


----------



## CXRAndy (25 Feb 2021)

My bike is on schedule for April delivery, not long now


----------



## CXRAndy (25 Feb 2021)

SuperNova 99 Pro has come, awaiting new bike


----------

