# Cadence - how fast?



## Misty (19 Aug 2010)

Hi all,

I'm pretty new to this recumbent lark and am at the "how do I make it go faster / how do I make it go uphill" stage.

My background is in carbon racing bikes & I know I've dropped into the habit of riding my upright at a higher gear, grinding rather than spinning - on the upright, I always make it to the top (well OK, I make it on anything up to a 25% & frankly that's good enough!), however slow, but on the recumbent I'm struggling on much gentler slopes and horror of horrors, have had to WALK up some hills that would previously have been a breeze  
(My last attempt at a 14% involved steering into the verge at very slow speed and toppling over into a slightly uncomfortable nettle patch - thankfully without any witnesses!!!)

I suspect that I'm replicating the poor upright "grind" habit and need to decrease gear / increase spin on the reumbent to overcome the steering / stability issues I've been experiencing lately, but I'd appreciate some guidance on what a decent cadence range would be on the recumbent. 
I have a garmin edge with a cadence meter which I think will fit on the recumbent & with some help from you guys, hopefully I'll be able to monitor where I'm going wrong.... the beeping of a slow cadence alarm would appear to be infinitely less embarassing than picking myself up off the tarmac!  

I need to get this cracked because I live in the middle of the "Howardian hills" in Yorkshire ... if you can't climb round here, you don't get far!

Many thanks for your thoughts! Suzi


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## PaulM (19 Aug 2010)

Suzi,

The solution to climbing is low gears and then spinning fast enough to maintain 4 or 5 mph. You don't say what you ride but I am assuming it is a recumbent bike of some kind. It gets difficult to balance a recumbent bike much below 5mph, so the solution is to keep your speed up with the assistance of appropriate gearing. Currently my bottom gear is around 26" but I could probably do with 22". However it's then difficult to spin fast enough to maintain the 5mph needed to balance.

Paul


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## byegad (20 Aug 2010)

If I'm just ticking over, say on the flat with a tail wind I'll change up to get around 60/minute. 

For into the wind I'm doing high 70s and to climb low 80s.

The temptation is to use a high gear and low cadence for power. It works but your knees won't thank you in the long run. When I changed to recumbents my cadence went from 72 to 84 over the first 500 to 1000 miles. Remember on a 'bent you can press far more than your weight as the seat back allows you to effectively 'bench press' on every stroke. 

To do this I consciously practised at every opportunity. Whenever I was on a flat road I'd change down one gear and work at keeping the speed the same. At the foot of every hill I dropped another gear and upped my cadence again. As I climbed I worked at keeping my cadence up even at the expense of dropping more gears. This doesn't always work, for a start you run out of gears pretty soon  but over time it upped my 'natural' cadence.


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## Tigerbiten (20 Aug 2010)

I'm on a recumbent trike, so I dont have your low speed balance problems.
My bottom 4 gears are around 12.5"-15"-17"-20".
This gives me a speed uphill of around 3-4-5-6 mph for each gear.
Are your bottom gears low enough to let you spin uphill.

I found that if I start a ride by taking it easy and spinning the legs in a low-ish gear, then I tend to spin the whole ride.
If I start by trying to go fast and grinding in a high-ish gear, then I'll tend to grind the whole ride.

Don't leave the change down a gear untill to late.
I'm getting to be a good judge of just what gear will get me up what hill, so I now tend to change down a bit earlier ( before the grind stage) so I can keep spinning.
Also as I've got fitter, I can spin up hills in a slightly higher gear.

Luck ...........


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## BenM (20 Aug 2010)

Hi

Having commuted a princely 840(ish) miles on my commute since march I have noticed that my speed uphill is getting close to that which I remember when riding the same hill on the DF.

Low speed balance is something you learn or get used to the nettle stings. I make it a matter of principle not to fall in the same patch of nettles twice  having said that I haven't fallen off because of low speed recently - but I have wobbled seriously because of failing to clip out then panicking and consequently falling off.

Cadences - I agree with the poster above who mentions that if I start off spinning I tend to spin for the whole trip. I do try to maintain speed in lower gears and yes you do get used to the higher cadence..

The other thing to remember is that you need a while to develop your recumbent legs - mine are still getting there but I can really notice a difference when riding now compared to riding back in March when I got the 'bent.

B.


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## Riding in Circles (20 Aug 2010)

It takes 500-1000 miles to get your recumbent legs and to smooth out your cadence, hills mean spinning so the answer is to get the miles in, you are using your quads and calves equally on a bent where as on an upwrong you predominantly use your calves, you cannot switch to a bent and suddenly expect everything to be the same, miles are king.


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## ACW (21 Aug 2010)

on a recent trip to Arran i found i could climb at 4 mph (12% gradient )all i had to do was gear down till the cadence was comfortable, could have gone faster, but the trick is to get used to riding slow so if you have to climb some really steep hills you can slow down to take the load off. try leaning forward when riding slow, just enough to get your shoulders off the seat, it will help with the balance.


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## Tigerbiten (23 Aug 2010)

I've just done the Friday Night Ride to the Smoke.
8 upwrongs, 4 recumbents, including my Trice Q, and a Brompton.
13 riders, 27 wheels ......  
Fantastic ride, it was probably the fastest ride that I've been on as I had a rolling average of around 12.5 mph. 

Its the first time I riden with a bunch of other recumbent.
One thing I did notice, that ticking along in the 15-20 mph range, the recumbent riders where all keeping a slightly higher cadence than the upwrongs.
It was not much higher, probably only an extra 5-10 rpm, but it was there.

Luck ...........


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## Misty (24 Aug 2010)

Thanks for the responses!

Looking at the position of my pedals and spokes there's no way my cadence meter could ever be adapted to the Mistral, so I'll have to guess at my spin ....... when I'm cycling the upright up a particualrly challenging hill I have a mental "metronome" keeping the cadence up .... looks like I'll have to learn to count quicker on the recumbent! 

 

Doesn't help that since getting the bike I've either been working silly hours, juggling teenagers or dodging the rain .... getting 'bent legs may take some time!!!!


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## byegad (24 Aug 2010)

If your computer has a trip time readout counting your revs for 12 seconds and multiplying by 5 or any other simple calculation.


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## ACW (25 Aug 2010)

Checked my cadence last night and the highest i got was 85 on a hill, normal speed on a flat road, 65 to 75.
should i be peddling faster as i dont think i pedal any slower on my mountain bike or the upwrong racer.
dont think i will ever get used to the high cadance speed


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## Tigerbiten (25 Aug 2010)

I've got 3 different cadence speeds depending on what speed I'm going on the trike.

My ultra slow sub 40 rpm hill climbing one. I this cadence there is a lot of presure on both my feet and my sholders as I basicaly winch my way up steep hill. Normally used on hills of over 12% and at sub 3 mph.
My slow 60 rpm hill climbing speed. It the fastest I can spin the legs without overheating when climbing in the 3-8 mph range. the weight on my feet and sholders is light. This was my normal cadence over a year ago when I first started to ride the trike.
Over 8-10 mph I get enough air flowing over the fairing to keep me cooler, so I can use my now normal 90 rpm cadence.
I spinout at around 110 rpm, which is ~32 mph in a 100" gear.

There are two way of training yourself to have a higher cadence, that I have found.
The first is if your used to going along a road at a your normal speed in a set gear, try to get used to going along it at your normal speed but in one gear lower.
The other is to try and get used to a light pressure between your foot and the pedal. Once the pressure starts to increase as you put more power through the pedals as your speed drops, change down a gear to keep the light feel.
You will find that you will be changing gear more often with this approch but its a lot better on your knees.
Because my knees are just about knackered, I had to use a combination of both to train myself to have a naturally higher cadence on the trike.
That way I can go further with any pain from the knees.

Luck ...........


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## ACW (26 Aug 2010)

Can anyone recomend a speedometer with a candance sensor on it? i have been looking at getting a new one anyway so it seems like a good idea to get one.
Thanks


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## ACW (26 Aug 2010)

sorry _cadence _sensor not candance. DOH


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## 3tyretrackterry (26 Aug 2010)

i was given a tip when i was looking into buying a trike about becoming a better spinner/increasing cadence. It was never stand up on the pedals of my DF commuter. i practisd this for over a year before i got my trike and would like to think i ride better for it


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## Riding in Circles (26 Aug 2010)

You tend to develop a much smoother cadence riding bent.


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## Misty (29 Aug 2010)

ACW - my husband bought me a garmin 705 for christmas last year (primarily because I have the sense of direction of a dead duck & wanted the gps to allow me to explore places I'd otherwise never find) - it came with a free cadence / speed monitor. The cadence monitor works on the recumbent boom but the pedal is too high above the wheel to also pick up from the spoke magnet (for speed). 
But the gps works out your speed based on your gps position so you only need the speed via the spoke magnet if there's no gps reception.
It's an expensive piece of kit if all you want is speed / cadence, but the gps is awesome if you're thinking of touring - and there's loads of training tools like the virtual partner to race against, a heart monitor (stops me pushing it too hard!!!!), ability to upload circuits into the garmin training centre etc.


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## ACW (29 Aug 2010)

Misty said:


> ACW - my husband bought me a garmin 705 for christmas last year (primarily because I have the sense of direction of a dead duck & wanted the gps to allow me to explore places I'd otherwise never find) - it came with a free cadence / speed monitor. The cadence monitor works on the recumbent boom but the pedal is too high above the wheel to also pick up from the spoke magnet (for speed).
> But the gps works out your speed based on your gps position so you only need the speed via the spoke magnet if there's no gps reception.
> It's an expensive piece of kit if all you want is speed / cadence, but the gps is awesome if you're thinking of touring - and there's loads of training tools like the virtual partner to race against, a heart monitor (stops me pushing it too hard!!!!), ability to upload circuits into the garmin training centre etc.




Thanks i will have a look at one, 
went to the bike shop but none for sale so when i got home i worked out that fitting an old speedometer to the bike with the magnet fitted to the crank arm can work as a cadence meter.
if you set the wheel size to 2682mm and mph, then the speed = revs instead.
6.0mph = 60 rpm 
if you want the maths it is 2.682m x 60 =160.9334m per min or 9656.004 m per hr or 9.656k per hr or 6 mph
did a trial run and it works 100rpm in top gear = 35 mph as predicted by the gear calculator on sheldon browns website.
well chuffed with it, only problem s i now know that i dont spin enough my usual comfortable rate is between 60 and 75 climbing a steep hill i was only getting up to 85

Must try harder!


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## PalmerSperry (31 Aug 2010)

Misty said:


> ACW - my husband bought me a garmin 705 for christmas last year (primarily because I have the sense of direction of a dead duck & wanted the gps to allow me to explore places I'd otherwise never find) - it came with a free cadence / speed monitor. The cadence monitor works on the recumbent boom but the pedal is too high above the wheel to also pick up from the spoke magnet (for speed).
> But the gps works out your speed based on your gps position so you only need the speed via the spoke magnet if there's no gps reception.



<nods> I've got a Edge 305 and find it great. (Particularly as I have 3 bikes - the MTB/shopping-hack, the Racebike and the 'bent - and can therefore use the same cycle-computer for all of them!) Alas, one of the 3 roads out of where I live goes through a tunnel for about 200 metres (and my nice little local hillclimb has sufficiently thick trees as to cause GPS problem) so I haven't yet decided whether I want speed or cadence on the 'bent ...

Have to admit I've given a little though to performing "surgery" on the speed & cadence sensor so as to gain both! Not had any luck locating any websites where someone else has already attempted this, but it seems to me that removing the screw that the speed sensor pivots around might result in coming off? Extend the wires sufficiently and waterproof the gaps, and maybe ... just maybe?


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## Misty (31 Aug 2010)

removing the screw that the speed sensor pivots around might result in coming off? Extend the wires sufficiently and waterproof the gaps, and maybe ... just maybe?
[/quote]

Yes, if you unscrew the speed sensor pick up it does indeed come all the way off (it wasn't my intention to do that, honest, it just fell off in my hand .... !!!)

But the wires inside are very thin and very tight ... I wouldn't fancy my chances extending them "cleanly". [But I'm useless at practical stuff - you may think it's a doddle .... if you work out how, do let me know  !]

Personally, as a newbie to the weird world of recumbents, I've found the cadence monitor more useful than knowing how fast I'm going .... for speed, if I'm wobbling uphill, I must be at less than 4mph .... if it's slightly disconcerting downhill, but still well planted, I'm probably at 40 - 45mph .... if my teeth are rattling, I'm at 45 - 50 mph+ ! For the bits in between I'm starting to get a feel of the speed I would expect in each gear / cadence combination. 
Right now, my aim is to ride a whole ride at a constant cadence, irrespective of the gradient.... so downhill you spin away in a higher gear & uphill, at the same rate in a lower gear. It's not as quick as it could be downhill, but I think it is training my brain to go for consistency and change gear sooner / more often, whilst on an upright I've got lazy and tend to just grind a bit harder before i drop a gear.


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## PalmerSperry (31 Aug 2010)

Misty said:


> Yes, if you unscrew the speed sensor pick up it does indeed come all the way off (it wasn't my intention to do that, honest, it just fell off in my hand .... !!!)
> 
> But the wires inside are very thin and very tight ... I wouldn't fancy my chances extending them "cleanly". [But I'm useless at practical stuff - you may think it's a doddle .... if you work out how, do let me know  !]



Thanks for the information, which is more than I had before! Of course, even if I do manage to successfully extend things that still leaves mounting the speed sensor end of things which might still be a little awkward/

Plus, if I'm honest, I'm not 100% certain a this point whether I'm staying with recumbents (and if so which one?[1]) or switching back to uprights on the grounds of there being .

[1] Currently got a pretty standard Giro 26, options are upgrading it or replacing it with one of Raptobike Midracer or a Challenge Furai 24.


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## Misty (1 Sep 2010)

PalmerSperry said:


> Thanks for the information, which is more than I had before! Of course, even if I do manage to successfully extend things that still leaves mounting the speed sensor end of things which might still be a little awkward/
> 
> Plus, if I'm honest, I'm not 100% certain a this point whether I'm staying with recumbents (and if so which one?[1]) or switching back to uprights on the grounds of there being .
> 
> [1] Currently got a pretty standard Giro 26, options are upgrading it or replacing it with one of Raptobike Midracer or a Challenge Furai 24.




Mounting the speed sensor should be a piece of cake if you've extended the wire from the main unit - I'd have thought a zip tie to the forks somewhere with the magnet on the spokes ought to do it... if I get slippy stuff to zip tie, I tend to cut off a tiny strip of inner tube - wrap it round the thing you want to zip tie and the rubber is sufficiently "sticky" to hold things in place.

Yeah, I know what you mean about recumbents - I'm only riding one because I have to ... it's recumbents or giving up riding .... if I had a choice I'd still be spinning away on a carbon Trek and loving it. In my (very) humble opinion, sometimes the "disadvantages" of uprights are over stated - if you ride enough, most of them are minimised !
Maybe I'll feel differently in a year or so when the recumbent muscles and my sense of balance / adoption of the recumbent style has developed ... but I'm not one to give up easily, so I'm going to plug away at it for a while yet!!!


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## tongskie01 (2 Sep 2010)

Misty said:


> Mounting the speed sensor should be a piece of cake if you've extended the wire from the main unit - I'd have thought a zip tie to the forks somewhere with the magnet on the spokes ought to do it... if I get slippy stuff to zip tie, I tend to cut off a tiny strip of inner tube - wrap it round the thing you want to zip tie and the rubber is sufficiently "sticky" to hold things in place.
> 
> Yeah, I know what you mean about recumbents - I'm only riding one because I have to ... it's recumbents or giving up riding .... if I had a choice I'd still be spinning away on a carbon Trek and loving it. In my (very) humble opinion, sometimes the "disadvantages" of uprights are over stated - if you ride enough, most of them are minimised !
> Maybe I'll feel differently in a year or so when the recumbent muscles and my sense of balance / adoption of the recumbent style has developed ... but I'm not one to give up easily, so I'm going to plug away at it for a while yet!!!



put more miles on it. more miles more satisfaction and lots of fun.


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## MartinG (6 Sep 2010)

Catrike UK said:


> You tend to develop a much smoother cadence riding bent.



As a total newbie to 'bent riding (and a very unfit returner to cycling at all), I already notice that I pedal a much smoother cadence on the 'bent and that each stroke of the pedals is smoother - less of the alternating piston effect, and a much smoother (- also less tiring and more powerful) circular action with NO KNEE PAIN!

Maybe having less well engrained DF habits is an advantage!

Yesterday I did my usual early morning ride and really pushed it, working the pedals hard and getting my heart-rate up. Today I took it easy and concentrated on keeping my cadence high: my times were identical but today I wasn't half as knackered!


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