# Extreme fatigue, loss of appetite, legs like lead......cannot find the cause.



## Dave7 (3 Sep 2020)

OK..... the Old farts retired section have been bored by me and been very encouraging.
Similar symptoms for me and MrsD.
As brief as possible.
Got flu in December which lasted till March.
Got over that and were hit by these symptoms.
•Total fatigue. Can sleep for England.
•Can't play golf. Tried 6 weeks ago and almost crawled off after 8 holes.
• No appetite. Not cooked a proper meal
in 3 months.
• not been able to cycle for months.
We thought Covid 19.
Had 3 blood tests.....negative.
Had an ultra scan today, all positive.
Put new CO detectors in....nothing.
We have an inspector out on Tuesday to check our water supply.
Whatever it is... its something thats affecting both of us
BTW... I am having more blood tests next week.
Thanks for listening


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## roadrash (3 Sep 2020)

cant help , but good luck and i hope you find out what is responsible, by the way what size did you say your bikes was ....you know....just in case


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## SGG on a bike (3 Sep 2020)

Sounds pretty horrendous. Hope you get some good news and get over it soon. Both me and the Mrs picked up a flu like virus about this time last year. I was still suffering with fatigue as late as March this year and even now don't have the stamina I had previously. Hang in there though, you'll get there.


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## Globalti (3 Sep 2020)

Like most people in the world you are suffering depression, which prevents you from doing the things you used to enjoy.


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## Dave7 (3 Sep 2020)

Globalti said:


> Like most people in the world you are suffering depression, which prevents you from doing the things you used to enjoy.


Not at all. I will totally discount that thought even though I appreciate the comment 
Both had flu at the same time ??
Both got these symptoms at the same time,??
No.
I am going with something physical.


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## ColinJ (3 Sep 2020)

Perhaps you both actually had glandular fever? That can cause long-term post-viral fatigue.

PS I think I had it as a student. I didn't go to a doctor so I can't be sure but I had similar symptoms to you for months.


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## raleighnut (3 Sep 2020)

I'd go for post-viral fatigue too, I had it 25 or so years ago and it took ages to get over it. I'd say try to eat better would help.


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## Grant Fondo (3 Sep 2020)

Thats odd, especially as you both have the same issue. Diet? Or possibly just a low in the 'engine room'. I have been through similar, then out of the blue, the clouds part and all that muscle memory in the legs comes back, no idea why. Good luck


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## gavroche (3 Sep 2020)

Dave7 said:


> OK..... the Old farts retired section have been bored by me and been very encouraging.
> Similar symptoms for me and MrsD.
> As brief as possible.
> Got flu in December which lasted till March.
> ...


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## Once a Wheeler (3 Sep 2020)

Try the following:

Get back to proper eating habits. Good nourishing meals at regular times and nothing in between except energy bars on the bike.
Check your body mass index (BMI). If it is 24 or over, take action. (https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/healthy-weight/bmi-calculator/)
Read this: https://www.waterstones.com/book/the-fast-diet/dr-michael-mosley/mimi-spencer/9781780722375. Try it even if you are not overweight: it stands a good chance of kicking your natural repair mechanisms into action. Stop when back to normal.
Do not take 'no' for an answer from your doctor. If you are signed up to a group practice try as many different doctors as you can: the chances are the youngest, most inexperienced and therefore most open-minded will have the answer.
Even if none of this does you any good, none of this will hurt you; and you will have the satisfaction of actively doing something about it. Good health!


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## MntnMan62 (3 Sep 2020)

Have you both gone for a full physical examination? Last time you saw the cardiologist? Heat disease can cause these symptoms. Both of you? Could be a coincidence or it could be a product of diet? Also, the fatigue could be caused by your poor appetite. I suggest trying to eat healthy for a couple weeks and see if the fatigue goes away. And seek the advice of a physician.


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## PaulSB (3 Sep 2020)

Globalti said:


> Like most people in the world you are suffering depression, which prevents you from doing the things you used to enjoy.


As an aside depression doesn't stop one from doing things you enjoy. An effect of depression is those with the illness stop doing the things they love.


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## Cycleops (3 Sep 2020)

Haven’t made any disparaging remarks about Putin on the net followed by a visit from two well built men with thick Eastern European accents who’s car had broken down asking for help?
Seriously it’s probably just a side effect of the lockdown, I’m sure it will clear up soon.


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## Ridgeway (3 Sep 2020)

Do you have a carbon monoxide alarm, batteries ok ?

Low level CO exposure can cause the symptoms you describe so worth checking any gas appliances.


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## ColinJ (3 Sep 2020)

Ridgeway said:


> Do you have a carbon monoxide alarm, batteries ok ?
> 
> Low level CO exposure can cause the symptoms you describe so worth checking any gas appliances.


That was my first thought too, until I spotted this...



Dave7 said:


> Put new CO detectors in....nothing.


I nearly died from CO poisoning [see THIS THREAD], so I watch out for people at risk!

PS @Dave7 - just to doublecheck... they are _CO _detectors aren't they, NOT _SMOKE _detectors? And you have them in every room where there is a gas appliance?


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## Ridgeway (3 Sep 2020)

I would still investigate CO, another detector is worth looking at, different location etc.


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## ColinJ (3 Sep 2020)

Ridgeway said:


> I would still investigate CO, another detector is worth looking at, different location etc.


I had just edited my post - We are reading each others minds!


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## MntnMan62 (3 Sep 2020)

PaulSB said:


> As an aside depression doesn't stop one from doing things you enjoy. An effect of depression is those with the illness stop doing the things they love.



What's the difference between stopping doing something you enjoy and stopping doing the things you love?


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## sleuthey (3 Sep 2020)

My best guess is your in a viscous circle:

Causal = what @ColinJ said

Reason for not recovering =


Dave7 said:


> • No appetite. Not cooked a proper meal
> in 3 months.



Solution = follow Advice from @Once a Wheeler


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## tom73 (3 Sep 2020)

Just what blood test's have you had ? 
Don't rule out depression it's very common in older people and often go's under the radar in that age group. 
Your doctor can give you simple questioner to do which may show you have without knowing it. 
It's maybe a number of small things which the virus has just brought to a head. 
Without a clear set of test results or other key pointers it's had for any GP to say what it is. Post-viral fatigue is on such example which can't be ruled out given your history. 
It may take time to rule out most things and even then you may never know. 
Yes people can get fobbed off but equally medicine is still learning so much.


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## sleuthey (3 Sep 2020)

Dave7 said:


> We have an inspector out on Tuesday to check our water supply.


I thought the Lead was in your legs?😉


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## Joffey (3 Sep 2020)

Covid Long?

Have you had the test to see if you have HAD it, not if you HAVE it?


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## MichaelW2 (3 Sep 2020)

If it is post viral fatigue you need to exercise with extreme moderation. Dont push yourself or ride to exhaustion.


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## classic33 (3 Sep 2020)

sleuthey said:


> My best guess is your in a viscous circle:
> 
> Causal = what @ColinJ said
> 
> ...


Solution, follow advice from those qualified to say what's wrong.


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## tom73 (3 Sep 2020)

Long covid can't be ruled out the covid test is not fool proof. It's possible you had flu and then covid on top with one masking the other. 
Partially if you only got exposed to a low viral load which if your body was already fighting one virus may have been just enough to leave you with problem.
Have you ask if it could be long covid ? As with many thing's covid many still don't know enough about it. I can point you to paper on it if you want give your GP a helping hand.


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## icowden (4 Sep 2020)

BBC have a news story about Long Covid here. A lot of it sounds similar to some of the things you have been experiencing: 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-53948028


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## PaulSB (4 Sep 2020)

MntnMan62 said:


> What's the difference between stopping doing something you enjoy and stopping doing the things you love?


I have four friends who suffer this illness which manifests itself in various ways. One is a keen and very good cyclist who simply gave up, stopped doing the very thing which helped. There was nothing to stop the cycling it was a decision she made alongside several others.

Cycling was something I was able to help with. I knew her to be someone who never broke a commitment and I managed to get a commitment 2-3 times a week to get out with me. Her riding was as good as ever, the illness didn't actually stop this. Together we broke the cycle and reversed the decision and she continued with positive results.


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## Dave7 (4 Sep 2020)

ColinJ said:


> That was my first thought too, until I spotted this...
> 
> 
> I nearly died from CO poisoning [see THIS THREAD], so I watch out for people at risk!
> ...


Yes. Fireangel is the brand. One in the lounge (gas fire) and one upstairs near the combi boiler.


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## Dave7 (4 Sep 2020)

icowden said:


> BBC have a news story about Long Covid here. A lot of it sounds similar to some of the things you have been experiencing:
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-53948028


There is a forum called Covid Longhaulers. Honestly, we have at least 90% of the symptoms.
I was really disappointed that the Covid blood test was negative. I was sure that was it.


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## Dave7 (4 Sep 2020)

sleuthey said:


> I thought the Lead was in your legs?😉


Joking apart, lead pipes is one of the things he will be looking for.


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## sleuthey (4 Sep 2020)

classic33 said:


> Solution, follow advice from those qualified to say what's wrong.


Thank you for agreeing with what I recommend. Glad we both agree with the advice from Once a Wheeler


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## Dave7 (4 Sep 2020)

Joffey said:


> Covid Long?
> 
> Have you had the test to see if you have HAD it, not if you HAVE it?


Thats what the blood test was for....Covid specific.


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## sleuthey (4 Sep 2020)

Dave7 said:


> Joking apart, lead pipes is one of the things he will be looking for.


I had the water board lead test 3 years ago as I have lead pipes. They didn’t examine the pipes, just test the water. Here are the results:


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## Dave7 (4 Sep 2020)

Thanks for all the comments. As always, much appreciated, even @sleuthey s joke as I (seriously) appreciate well meant humour.
Something I didn't mention so my OP wasn't too long..........
Improving now but sweats and shakes plus loss of balance.
As an eg a one morning, in bed, about 0600 my whole body started shaking and sweat was, literally oozing out.....it was like someone turned a tap on.
About 10 00 I decided to go downstairs. This is literal.... I had to do it on my bum with MrsD helping me..
That was the point I had to threaten my Doctor...... sort this now or I phone 999. Within an hour the blood tests etc were arranged.
BTW... I am now on a course of Folic Acid (iron) tablets.


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## vickster (4 Sep 2020)

Dave7 said:


> Thanks for all the comments. As always, much appreciated, even @sleuthey s joke as I (seriously) appreciate well meant humour.
> Something I didn't mention so my OP wasn't too long..........
> Improving now but sweats and shakes plus loss of balance.
> As an eg a one morning, in bed, about 0600 my whole body started shaking and sweat was, literally oozing out.....it was like someone turned a tap on.
> ...


Do you mean ferrous sulphate (iron) if anaemic
Folic acid is linked 
https://www.nhs.uk/medicines/folic-acid/


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## Dave7 (4 Sep 2020)

vickster said:


> Do you mean ferrous sulphate (iron) if anaemic
> Folic acid is linked
> https://www.nhs.uk/medicines/folic-acid/


I think so.
The tablets/box just says Folic Acid Tablets. I am told they are for iron deficiency.


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## icowden (4 Sep 2020)

Dave7 said:


> There is a forum called Covid Longhaulers. Honestly, we have at least 90% of the symptoms.
> I was really disappointed that the Covid blood test was negative. I was sure that was it.




From the BBC article:-



> At the testing centre she expected to be reassured by nurses and doctors but instead it was staffed by soldiers, their khakis soaked on a sweaty day in June. As she stuck a cotton swab up her nose it struck her how young they were.
> The results came back negative - proving that she no longer had the virus, though not that she had never had it.



So a negative result doesn't mean that you never had it, and there is also some uncertainty about the antibody test as it is uncertain how long antibodies stick around for.


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## vickster (4 Sep 2020)

icowden said:


> From the BBC article:-
> 
> 
> 
> So a negative result doesn't mean that you never had it, and there is also some uncertainty about the antibody test as it is uncertain how long antibodies stick around for.


@Dave7 says they had a blood test...perhaps he means antibody rather than active disease?
He says they were ill in December, Covid wasn’t here then. Perhaps he was Christmas shopping in Wuhan?


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## dodgy (4 Sep 2020)

This sounds very much like Post-Viral Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, I am intimately familiar with the condition but will keep that private.
A very serious flu (proper flu, the type that puts you in bed and you'd rather just die, not sniffles) can lead to CFS in some cases and it can linger for many many years I'm sad to say.
Ask your GP to test for levels consistent with the condition (I don't think there's a simple test, but you can test for Thyroid levels etc etc - I'm not a doctor).


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## Joffey (4 Sep 2020)

Dave7 said:


> Thats what the blood test was for....Covid specific.



I think that I might have had it and am still suffering - I wish my doctor would give me that test.


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## tom73 (4 Sep 2020)

I've posted this before on covid thread but happy to add it here as it maybe of help to the OP or others posting here too. It's probably one of the best articles about Long covid and it's primary care management. 
https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3026


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## Lovacott (4 Sep 2020)

sleuthey said:


> I had the water board lead test 3 years ago as I have lead pipes. They didn’t examine the pipes, just test the water. Here are the results:



If you live in a hard water area, lead supply pipes will be coated up with scale so there will be very little water to lead contact (I spent ten years working in the water industry in London and started out managing lead supply pipe replacements).

If you have a soft water supply, you are at greater risk.

Replacing your side of the boundary stopcock can be very easy or a nightmare depending on the location of the boundary stopcock.

If it is easy, replace it and the water company will replace their part (problem solved).

It's worth remembering though, that most of our water use is not for direct consumption (bathing, laundry, toilet flushing, washing dishes, watering plants). If you are concerned about lead content in tap water, filter the water you drink.


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## Dave7 (4 Sep 2020)

Lovacott said:


> If you live in a hard water area, lead supply pipes will be coated up with scale so there will be very little water to lead contact (I spent ten years working in the water industry in London and started out managing lead supply pipe replacements).
> 
> If you have a soft water supply, you are at greater risk.
> 
> ...


Good points 
We have recently been using bottled water only for consumption but maybe a decent filter would be better.


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## icowden (4 Sep 2020)

vickster said:


> @Dave7 He says they were ill in December, Covid wasn’t here then. Perhaps he was Christmas shopping in Wuhan?



It's a bit debatable as to exactly when Covid arrived. My better half was extremely ill just before Christmas - I've never seen her take to her bed for 4 days before. She's one of those people that never stops. We have since often pondered whether it was Covid19.


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## vickster (4 Sep 2020)

icowden said:


> It's a bit debatable as to exactly when Covid arrived. My better half was extremely ill just before Christmas - I've never seen her take to her bed for 4 days before. She's one of those people that never stops. We have since often pondered whether it was Covid19.


The experts think not given there was no surge in cases at that point anywhere in Europe (or anywhere else) with completely open borders 

proper flu will also do that to a person, as will other viruses. Had she been vaccinated?


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## classic33 (4 Sep 2020)

Dave7 said:


> Good points
> We have recently been using bottled water only for consumption but maybe a decent filter would be better.


It'd work out the cheaper option over bottled water.


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## vickster (4 Sep 2020)

classic33 said:


> It'd work out the cheaper option over bottled water.


And much better for the environment 👍


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## Lovacott (4 Sep 2020)

Dave7 said:


> Good points
> We have recently been using bottled water only for consumption but maybe a decent filter would be better.


We use a counter top jug filter because most of the water we drink is in the form of cups of tea or bottles of water which we bottle up ourselves.

Shop bought bottled water can be pretty substandard compared to unfiltered tap water but (as far as I am concerned) filtered UK tap water is a world beater.

When I was working in the water supply industry in London, we had the worlds most advanced drinking water treatment process and regularly showed around top bods from overseas companies.

I never buy bottled water because it is a criminal waste of energy. Putting spring water into a plastic bottle and then hauling it for hundreds of miles on a diesel truck? You can get better out of the tap in your kitchen for a tiny fraction of the price.


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## byegad (4 Sep 2020)

I had 7 months off work in the 1980s. Eventually it transpired I'd recently had Epstein-Barr aka glandular fever. They only found the E-B antibodies in my bloods after I'd crawled back to work. It took me a good two years to be anywhere near back to normal and even now I occasionally, as in once every year or two, have sudden unexplained fatigue which can last a couple of hours or a few days.


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## Salar (4 Sep 2020)

Lovacott said:


> We use a counter top jug filter because most of the water we drink is in the form of cups of tea or bottles of water which we bottle up ourselves.



What jug filter would you recommend, I drink lots of water but I can't convince my better half to do the same, perhaps a filter might convince her.


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## vickster (4 Sep 2020)

Salar said:


> What jug filter would you recommend, I drink lots of water but I can't convince my better half to do the same, perhaps a filter might convince her.


Brita. I only drink tap water, but use Brita filtered water in kettle to avoid limescale (which it does)


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## classic33 (4 Sep 2020)

Salar said:


> What jug filter would you recommend, I drink lots of water but I can't convince my better half to do the same, perhaps a filter might convince her.


As per Vickster's post.

Saintsbury's have some at half price at present, if you're buying one.


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## Lovacott (4 Sep 2020)

Salar said:


> What jug filter would you recommend, I drink lots of water but I can't convince my better half to do the same, perhaps a filter might convince her.


I use a Brita model jug but most manufacturers offer the same things.

If I make a cup of tea without using the filter, I get a scum ring. If I make it with the Brita water, there is no scum ring.

The best way to convince your other half to get off the pre bottled water is to look at the multitude of comparison tests which have been carried out between the two. Even without using a filter, I'd still 100% go for tap water over bottled.


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## PaulSB (4 Sep 2020)

vickster said:


> @Dave7 says they had a blood test...perhaps he means antibody rather than active disease?
> He says they were ill in December, Covid wasn’t here then. Perhaps he was Christmas shopping in Wuhan?


There is a lot of anecdotal evidence to suggest it was but no one knew what to look for. My wife is a retired RCN, RCM and highly experienced health care professional. If she hears someone talk what she considers health nonsense her first response will be show me the peer reviewed evidence. Please keep this in mind.

Mrs P is 100% convinced she had Covid-19 in late December/early January. She had all the symptoms in the right order. In 42 years I have never seen her so ill. It took her till late May to recover. Our next door neighbors, both sides, one an equally qualified and retired health care professional, were both equally ill.

I know other people locally who have been told by our GP they currently have symptoms of those who have had and recovered from Covid-19. All were very seriously ill at the turn of the year.

I'm convinced it was here long before the NHS knew what to look for.


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## Lovacott (4 Sep 2020)

PaulSB said:


> I'm convinced it was here long before the NHS knew what to look for.


We went up to London on the train to see Arsenal V Everton on 23rd February and the boy (18) had a really bad week after that. High temperature, persistent cough etc.

Judging by the infection and death rate curves, this thing must have been with us since last November at the very latest.


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## PaulSB (4 Sep 2020)

vickster said:


> And it was there before Wuhan and anywhere else too?
> Has she had an antibody test?


I didn't say it was here before Wuhan which I believe goes back to mid-November.

No, she hasn't had an anti-body test though would jump at the opportunity. As we understand it these are only available to certain workers though I have read one can go private.

I understand your scepticism. When a highly experienced and qualified health professional with strong opinions on peer reviewed evidence who I've known for 42 years tells me she is convinced I believe it.

Add to this many people I know have been told by GPs they have post Covid-19 symptoms. There is no reason for a GP to make such statements unless they believe the symptoms to be typical.

I feel there is no evidence of when the virus arrived in the UK and with modern travel it's quite possible it arrived sometime before cases were identified.


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## tyred (4 Sep 2020)

I (thankfully) only had proper 'flu once in my life. I was 20 at the time and it took me about six months to fully recover. I had no energy whatsoever. I was still at college and ever Thursday morning I had a maths lecture on the 3rd floor of the college building. I used to go up the stairs 2 at a time. After the 'flu I had to stop to get my breath back several times. I remember trying to help my Dad change a wheel on the lorry and basically collapsing into a sweating heap. I would come home from college and just collapse into bed. The GP did endless bloodtests but nothing showed up but in time I returned to normal. It can take a long time to recover from these things.


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## Lovacott (5 Sep 2020)

tyred said:


> I (thankfully) only had proper 'flu once in my life. I was 20 at the time and it took me about six months to fully recover.


Two years ago I could have claimed the same (only had it once when I was 20 and I was knackered for months after).

Then, on Christmas day evening 2018, I suddenly felt very cold (down to the bones). I had a weird pain in my back and it reminded me of when I'd had the flu all those years before.

I made my apologies and went off to sleep in the spare room. I pretty much stayed there until new years day. No doctors, no special medicines, (just Panadol).

I was back at work the next day with just a little bit of mild fatigue which cleared after a few days.

When I was 20 and got the Flu, I was living at home and my mum took me to the doctors on day three and I was prescribed antibiotics. I took the whole course. I was fatigued for a good six months after that. 

I can only assume that the antibiotics contributed to the fatigue? There is a lot of evidence today that antibiotics clear out your gut flora which is an essential part of your digestive system. Because modern western diets are so sanitised (we boil and burn everything), the gut flora balance takes a long time to recover.

I'm a lot more mindful of what I eat nowadays compared to when I was 20 (pie and chips,chicken and chips, fish and chips,burger and chips).


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## ColinJ (5 Sep 2020)

tyred said:


> I (thankfully) only had proper 'flu once in my life.


Me too... Feeling so ill that I felt like I might die, and having to crawl to the bathroom to see whether projectile vomiting or the latest dose of the squits was going to win the race! Then having to crawl to the table with the phone on and pull it down by its cord because I didn't have the strength to stand to phone in sick...


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## Lovacott (5 Sep 2020)

ColinJ said:


> Me too... Feeling so ill that I felt like I might die, and having to crawl to the bathroom to see whether projectile vomiting or the latest dose of the squits was going to win the race! Then having to crawl to the table with the phone on and pull it down by its cord because I didn't have the strength to stand to phone in sick...


On the two occasions that I had "proper flu", the symptoms were pretty much the same.

Started the day feeling 100% then ended the day feeling like I'd been poisoned and kicked in the kidneys.

When I get colds, I usually get a couple of days notice but with the flu, it just hits you.

You cycle from boiling hot to freezing cold every hour or so and the nightmares could be turned into Hollywood blockbusters (if only you could remember them).

Colds and flu are nothing like each other (in my experience). Colds are long and drawn out, flu is a short sharp shock.


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## Ming the Merciless (5 Sep 2020)

Yet to have flu and no colds in past 7 years


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## Lovacott (5 Sep 2020)

YukonBoy said:


> Yet to have flu and no colds in past 7 years


That will be in a big part down to your diet and exercise habits.

Every time I've ever been ill, I can look back a couple of days or weeks and pinpoint what I did wrong (drank too much, didn't eat any veg for a week, held the handrail on the Central line and then rubbed my eye).

Maybe with this Covid thing, people will begin to see that they have some level of control over their own health and that it isn't all down to some kind of random lottery?


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## Ming the Merciless (5 Sep 2020)

Diet, exercise and hygiene


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## classic33 (6 Sep 2020)

YukonBoy said:


> Yet to have flu and no colds in past 7 years


Similar here.
If you count a runny nose and sneezing as a cold, I treat them with ice cream. Normally gone within two days.


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## Dave7 (6 Sep 2020)

YukonBoy said:


> Diet, exercise and hygiene


If only it was that simple.
I (did) cycle regularly.
I played golf twice a week.
We enjoyed walking.
I loved my veg and salad....and fruit.
But when flu decides to give you a kick in the nuts all that counts for nothing.
I got 'real' flu** in the 80s when I was really fit and ate well........it wiped me out and I was off work for 3 months.
**I was unconscious/delirious but apparently the doctor at first diagnosed meningitis.
This flu, Dec-March was not as severe but the after affects are crippling.


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## Ming the Merciless (6 Sep 2020)

Golf isn’t exercise in any meaningful way 🤗


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## Dave7 (6 Sep 2020)

YukonBoy said:


> Golf isn’t exercise in any meaningful way 🤗


It is for me. I play regimental golf......left, right, left. I walk twice as far as everyone else


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