# rohloff or 11/12 speed cassette



## wotsthat (3 Aug 2019)

in the process of building a recumbent trike for touring - initially was going for a _rohloff_ speed hub but then chatting with a friend last night he's saying that i'd be better off with _sram/shimano _11/12 speed rear and have a greater range of gears - i know the _rohloffs_ are reliable and low maintenance (which was the reason i was edging that way - mmm , What to do? What to do?


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## Cycleops (3 Aug 2019)

How big is your wallet and how much do value low maintenance?


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## Ming the Merciless (3 Aug 2019)

With Rohloff you'll be able to change multiple gears when stopped. Can't do that with a derailleur. No getting stuck in the wrong gear when ready to start at the lights or an uphill.


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## numbnuts (3 Aug 2019)

You can buy a lot of cassettes with the price of a rohloff,
Ah maintenance free you say how long does it take to clean a chain and a squirt of oil
and with a recumbent if chain runs through a tube_ most do_ they stay cleaner


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## Tigerbiten (4 Aug 2019)

Your best bet for for a wide range on a trike is a wide triple on the front with a SA CS-RF3 3 speed hub with a 9 block cassette on the back.
It's possible to get a 10x range, ~12.5"-125" with this setup.
You normally run is the middle gear on the hub due to low drag, but the other two gears will act as an under/over drive as needed.
You can also drop a range if you stop in the wrong gear.

I looked into something like that before getting my Schlumpf HSD-Rohloff setup.

Luck ........


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## arallsopp (4 Aug 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> With Rohloff you'll be able to change multiple gears when stopped. Can't do that with a derailleur. No getting stuck in the wrong gear when ready to start at the lights or an uphill.



I run a few ‘bents, including one tandem with a Rohloff rear. The cable run on that one would preclude any kind of sensible indexing with a derailleur setup, and it’s proven to be very low maintenance. As YukonBoy said, you can just grab a fist full of gears after an unexpected stop and resume with ease. 

The others (mostly 3x10s) have a much wider range of gears, and those with tubes can be shifted down to the granny ring at a standstill be simply pedalling backwards, nudging the chain tube with your heel, and shifting to meet the chain line as it comes back around the chainring. 

Given I’m on two wheels, I would think this even easier on three, as your trike doesn’t fall over when it stops  I have to do it clipped in and with a single foot


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## PaulM (4 Aug 2019)

arallsopp said:


> The others (mostly 3x10s) have a much wider range of gears, and those with tubes can be shifted down to the granny ring at a standstill be simply pedalling backwards, nudging the chain tube with your heel, and shifting to meet the chain line as it comes back around the chainring.


I'd never thought of that. That's great tip. :-)


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## Tigerbiten (4 Aug 2019)

If you are going for a Rohloff, have you thought of putting a triple at the front.
A 30-39-50 with add an extra 4 gears and a 30-39-56 will add 5.
Starting around 13" first gear, then the top gear is lifted from around 70" to around 120" or 140".
With the 30t chainring, then the 16t sprocket works with a 26" back wheel and the 13t sprocket with a 20".
The Rohloff chain tensioner works with the first triple but you'll need to lock a derailleur in place for the second.
Starting with a 20" wheel and a 13 sprocket, a 26-38-56 triple will give you 6 more gears, 10.5"-116", but you need to mod a front derailleur for that to work.


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## snorri (4 Aug 2019)

numbnuts said:


> You can buy a lot of cassettes with the price of a rohloff,


Or to put that another way, you have to choose between Rohloff reliability or having the inconvenience and time consuming activities of ordering and fitting replacement components at regular intervals, during some of that time your bike will be out of service.


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## Cycleops (4 Aug 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> With Rohloff you'll be able to change multiple gears when stopped. Can't do that with a derailleur. No getting stuck in the wrong gear when ready to start at the lights or an uphill.





snorri said:


> Or to put that another way, you have to choose between Rohloff reliability or having the inconvenience and time consuming activities of ordering and fitting replacement components at regular intervals, during some of that time your bike will be out of service.


All of which is perhaps overshadowed by trying to explain to 'er indoors or whoever that you need to spend around £1.5k on a lump of metal for changing gear that does the same job as a derailleur at a fraction of that .


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## Tilley (4 Aug 2019)

With the 11 speed derailleur you will a long cage rear changer and if you are running a 20" rear wheel this results in very little clearance which was the primary reason I opted for the sturmley archer hub gear and 9 speed close ratio block as described b Tigerbiten earlier in this thread.


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## snorri (4 Aug 2019)

Cycleops said:


> All of which is perhaps overshadowed by trying to explain to 'er indoors or whoever that you need to spend around £1.5k on a lump of metal for changing gear that does the same job as a derailleur at a fraction of that .


I'm sure there must be another forum for relationship counselling.


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## Tigerbiten (4 Aug 2019)

With a bent trike, you soon run into the limits of what a derailleur setup can do.
The limit for a front derailleur is 26 teeth, so 22-36-48 gives you a maximum range of 218%.
The limit of a rear derailleur is around 49 teeth, so add 2 for luck so that the chain rubs on the derailleur when running small-small.
51-26=25 so an 11-36 block works, which gives you a range of 327%.
Combining them give you a total range of 713% or 15"-107" on a 26" wheel.
It doesn't matter if you use a 7 block or a 13 block at the back, without modding the rear derailleur to cope with more teeth, that the maximum range of a pure derailleur setup.

Now you know why I started to look at none pure derailleur setup when I had my latest trike built.
I was after 10"-130".
With my Rohloff and HSD with twin chainrings setup I ended up with 9.4"-179.4" or 1905% ....... 

Luck ........


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## Nigelnightmare (11 Aug 2019)

Tigerbiten said:


> With a bent trike, you soon run into the limits of what a derailleur setup can do.
> The limit for a front derailleur is 26 teeth, so 22-36-48 gives you a maximum range of 218%.
> The limit of a rear derailleur is around 49 teeth, so add 2 for luck so that the chain rubs on the derailleur when running small-small.
> 51-26=25 so an 11-36 block works, which gives you a range of 327%.
> ...



Why is the limit for the front derailleur 26 teeth?


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## Tigerbiten (12 Aug 2019)

Nigelnightmare said:


> Why is the limit for the front derailleur 26 teeth?


It may not be exactly 26 teeth but it's very close to that.

The depth of the front cage limits the maximum difference between chainrings.
Put the chain on the big chainring and measure the gap in mm between the chain and the bottom of the cage.
Divide by 2 and that's the maximum number of teeth possible between the big chainring and small.
Exceed that number and the chain starts to rub on the bottom of the cage when you drop onto the small chainring.

If you've seen any posts on running quad chainrings then that was only possible by combining two cages to make one extra deep one.
Basically you cut the bottom off one cage and the other cage just behind the pivot points, now solder the two parts together to make an extra long/deep cage.
The "mountain tamer quad" adapter then lets you use a sprocket as a fourth chainring for something like 53-39-30-18.
This was from the days when 32 was a big sprocket.

Luck .........


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## flake99please (12 Aug 2019)

Have you given the pinion gear system any consideration?


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## Tigerbiten (12 Aug 2019)

What ?? 
A Pinion 18 and a Rohloff ......... 

When I designed my setup, Pinion drives where new and I had no real data on long term reliability.
So I didn't really look into them.

But I can tell you one downside of them is that the weight is in front of the front wheels on a tadpole trike.
This will reduce the weight and hence the traction on the back wheel.
How much this will affect a tadpole trike I don't know.
As thats the limiting factor when hill climbing, once the back wheel starts to slip badly then you get off and push.

But a Pinion drive would work well in a delta trike for keeping the front wheel down and hence steering on steep hills.

Luck ........


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## Nigelnightmare (17 Aug 2019)

Tigerbiten said:


> It may not be exactly 26 teeth but it's very close to that.
> 
> The depth of the front cage limits the maximum difference between chainrings.
> Put the chain on the big chainring and measure the gap in mm between the chain and the bottom of the cage.
> ...


Thanks, I always wondered how they came up with the Max difference between chainrings.
I must admit that I never gave it much thought But it makes sense the way you put it.


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## Blue Hills (19 Aug 2019)

snorri said:


> Or to put that another way, you have to choose between Rohloff reliability or having the inconvenience and time consuming activities of ordering and fitting replacement components at regular intervals, during some of that time your bike will be out of service.


How long does it take you to change a cassette?
I fear you may be doing something wrong.


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## snorri (19 Aug 2019)

Blue Hills said:


> How long does it take you to change a cassette?
> I fear you may be doing something wrong.


A lot longer than it takes me to do the annual oil change on a Rohloff, and I can programme oil changes to a winter month to suit my convenience rather than when it becomes necessary due to wear and tear of chain or sprockets.
On the contrary, I know I am doing something right!


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## Tigerbiten (19 Aug 2019)

My take on the main difference between a derailleur and a IHG setup is just the gear shift.
The derailleur setup is shifted under load and hub gears aren't.
This means that you keep more momentum uphill more with derailleurs.
While the ability to shift at stand still is the hub gear advantage.

YMMV ...........


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## Nigelnightmare (29 Aug 2019)

snorri said:


> A lot longer than it takes me to do the annual oil change on a Rohloff, and I can programme oil changes to a winter month to suit my convenience rather than when it becomes necessary due to wear and tear of chain or sprockets.
> On the contrary, I know I am doing something right!



I don't know about you but I can change a rear cassette in under 10 minutes.
Doing an oil change on a Rohloff takes around an hour to do it properly.


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## Ming the Merciless (2 Sep 2019)

Nigelnightmare said:


> I don't know about you but I can change a rear cassette in under 10 minutes.
> Doing an oil change on a Rohloff takes around an hour to do it properly.



An hour, you are defo doing it wrong. The ride with the cleaning solution only needs to be 2-3 mins before you extract the cleaning mixture then add the new oil. It really doesn't need to take an hour. No need to remove and refit a wheel either as you would when fitting a new cassette.


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## tremendousmove (27 May 2020)

snorri said:


> Or to put that another way, you have to choose between Rohloff reliability or having the inconvenience and time consuming activities of ordering and fitting replacement components at regular intervals, during some of that time your bike will be out of service.


Except when the hub rim cracks around the spoke holes on a Rohloff it has to go back to Germany for assessment and repair. This happened to us yesterday and we're looking at 8 - 10 weeks before it's returned and the wheel rebuilt. This is a known weakness on the hub, especially for tandems, and the hub, from new, has a retaining ring to prevent the spokes pulling through (check out below and the pics on the SJS cycles site) which is a bit of an afterthought and suggests that they should have re-engineered the hub by now to overcome the admitted weakness, especially for the price. All the good points about static gear-changing and everyday ease of service - undeniably true - until it goes wrong. Toms Bike Trip site puts it well I think: https://tomsbiketrip.com/touring-bike-faq-5-derailleurs-or-internal-hub-gears-rohloff/


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