# SCP blocked for non opt-inners.



## Brandane (12 Feb 2017)

A good move IMHO; but I see it is still possible to accidentally access SCP by clicking on a new or trending thread in the appropriate column - where there is no warning as to which board the post is on. Is it possible to block that from happening too?
Please note, this is a genuine "site support" question and is not intended to become a locked thread about the pro's and cons of SCP..


----------



## Spinney (12 Feb 2017)

Has it actually started yet? I can still see it in the forum list and I haven't opted in.
And in New Posts, it tells you which forum each post is in (at least it does on a computer, not sure what the mobile version shows).


----------



## jonny jeez (12 Feb 2017)

Not sure its a good idea at all.

I had no idea its status had changed as i don't frequent cafe or site support. A banner at the top of the site would have been more easily spotted.

Not advertising the opt in stands the risk of making sc&p a silo for those who frequent the area and attracting no discussion from outside.

Its making it even less likely to attract more readership.

Greater moderation....excellent, hope the mods can deal with that.


----------



## jonny jeez (12 Feb 2017)

Spinney said:


> Has it actually started yet? I can still see it in the forum list and I haven't opted in.
> And in New Posts, it tells you which forum each post is in (at least it does on a computer, not sure what the mobile version shows).


Its not in my "new post" section, even on threads that i know are new.


----------



## Crackle (12 Feb 2017)

New or trending does not seem to take acct of any preferences you've expressed elsewhere so it's probably an add on that can't


----------



## Brandane (12 Feb 2017)

Spinney said:


> And in New Posts, it tells you which forum each post is in


In new POSTS it tells you, yes. But in new THREADS, over on the right hand side of the forums home page, it doesn't.


----------



## Spinney (12 Feb 2017)

Brandane said:


> In new POSTS it tells you, yes. But in new THREADS, over on the right hand side of the forums home page, it doesn't.


Ah, OK. I tend not to look at that.


----------



## jonny jeez (12 Feb 2017)

Brandane said:


> In new POSTS it tells you, yes. But in new THREADS, over on the right hand side of the forums home page, it doesn't.


I don't get to see that on my phone.


----------



## Shaun (12 Feb 2017)

*It hasn't started yet* - the SC&P, Cafe and Support posts I made last night are there to signpost it to anyone who has missed the announcement that was posted in Site News on Wednesday: https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/opt-in-change-for-the-society-culture-and-politics-forum.213848/ - it'll also be mentioned in the new member welcome personal message with details of how to opt-in.

I will probably make the change tonight or tomorrow night.

Cheers,
Shaun


----------



## Flying_Monkey (12 Feb 2017)

I disagree with the move. And it's confirmed something I've been considering for about a year - that this forum isn't for me any more. 

This is still a nice British cycling forum, but since I've moved away from Britain, I'm feeling less and less 'British' in my interests and so I don't feel so connected. I've also found that I've totally lost my interest in Pro-Cycling (which I used to spend most of my time discussing here when not in SC&P). Added to this is the fact that most of the people I really liked when I came to this forum, irrespective of the section of the forum they posted in, are no longer here. I've made it quite clear that I really dislike the attitude of some of the posters and moderators here to allowing any old political prejudice (so long as it's the 'stands to reason' right-wing type) in other areas of the forum and at the same time are promoting an exclusionary and prejudicial 'us and them' attitude to people who post in SC&P (regardless of where else they post too). The last straw in this trend is the 'opt-in' ghettoization of SC&P . I think it's completely the wrong solution. But this isn't a complaint: I recognise it's not my forum, and not just in terms of ownership and management, it's not my forum in just about every other way these days. So it's time for me to spend my online time elsewhere, and I've got a book to write anyway... 

It's been nice knowing you, I've enjoyed many the discussions in SC&P over the years, much of which was far, far better than the popular stereotype elsewhere on the forum. And I've enjoyed the other parts of the forum, Pro-Cycling, the Training section, even the Café sometimes, too. It was a worthy successor to the spirit of the old C+ Forums, and in general it retains that open and welcoming atmosphere, although it's grown to something that's far far bigger than it's precursors. 

So, thank-you @Shaun, good luck with it all, and keep on cycling.

People who want to contact me, you probably know where I am anyway and I'm not hard to find if you don't!


----------



## Drago (12 Feb 2017)

Just seen this. I'm out.


----------



## Dogtrousers (12 Feb 2017)

Hmph. I use "ignore nodes" to tailor cyclechat to my interests. I have done for yonks. So this change doesn't interest or affect me.

Spot the utterly pointless post.

As you were.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (12 Feb 2017)

SC&P has become the bastion of right-wing nutjob misogynists who think they are serious
Cafe has become the bastion of right-wing nutjob misogynists who think they are amusing


----------



## ColinJ (12 Feb 2017)

Marmion said:


> SC&P has become the bastion of right-wing nutjob misogynists who think they are serious
> Cafe has become the bastion of right-wing nutjob misogynists who think they are amusing


So, where should we nice people go?


----------



## growingvegetables (12 Feb 2017)

Flying_Monkey said:


> I ..........!


You will be sorely missed.

Something tells me I am not the only one to think that. I have valued your breadth of perspective, and your incisiveness. Thank you . And hope you reconsider.


----------



## growingvegetables (12 Feb 2017)

Marmion said:


> SC&P has become the bastion of right-wing nutjob misogynists who think they are serious
> Cafe has become the bastion of right-wing nutjob misogynists who think they are amusing


Pretty much a "State of the World" address, that one. 

But you forgot a group - the "sensitive-soul" right-wing nutjob misogynists. So deeply hurt about "always being shouted down". Snowflakes.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (12 Feb 2017)

User said:


> not that I'll be missed but its getting to a point where whats the point of having a different opinion and posting on CC, especially when the moderation can be bias, getting locked out for pointed out bigotry, posts getting removed which I posted a year ago..
> at least the contact the staff has been removed, bullying at its worse and nobody to see it..
> opt in - opt out is embarrassing,, adults needing another adult to help them make a choice, modern britain for you, too many people over sensitive and unable to make a grown up choice to stay away form SC&P.


I've stopped bothering this past week, I'll keep on rolling my eyes but the forum will become what the majority of the nutjob right-wingers want it to become. The bullies will no longer have to call foul on my part.

Hopefully Pro Punditry will not be affected by nobbers joining in, cos if they do I'll not be counting their scores for them


----------



## growingvegetables (12 Feb 2017)

User said:


> I will miss @Flying_Monkey posts and I agree with everything you wrote above...there are a number of posters that have vanished over the last few months whose posts I enjoy, shame really..


Damn - I caught that "perspectiveness" just a few seconds too late . But yes .... there's a real "chill in the air".


----------



## Dogtrousers (12 Feb 2017)

ColinJ said:


> So, where should we nice people go?


https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/the-2017-metric-century-100km-a-month-challenge-chatzone.211918/


----------



## Drago (12 Feb 2017)

The lentil eating kaftan wearing communist cuddling seal-not-clubbing left wing revolutionaries are welcome to the politics forum.


----------



## User32269 (12 Feb 2017)

SC&P should be about debate. The posters who use the option of continually posting personal insults are the ones that have made it an unappealing place. 
There are certain members, regardless of political conviction, whom it appeared the rules of the forum didn't apply? 
It was easy enough to opt out on the ignore nodes, so I'm not sure the change is that earth shattering. It will be made a better place if posters who break the rules of the forum are excluded.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (12 Feb 2017)

odav said:


> SC&P should be about debate. The posters who use the option of continually posting personal insults are the ones that have made it an unappealing place.
> There are certain members, regardless of political conviction, whom it appeared the rules of the forum didn't apply?
> It was easy enough to opt out on the ignore nodes, so I'm not sure the change is that earth shattering. It will be made a better place if posters who break the rules of the forum are excluded.


There is more of a problem than SC&P, and that is those within Cafe who post political comment and then claim it's not. And then call foul when they are called out. Which then leads to those calling them out being seen as the "baddies", which is all a bit strange.

But as I said, the forum will become what it will become if posters can continue to post right-wing tosh without challenge. Fun and friendly, my dangly sack.


----------



## Drago (12 Feb 2017)

Even more of a problem when someone starts a conversation in the Café which is going quite swimmingly for several pages, when the Marx Brothers nip across from the Politics Kremlin and do their damnedest to turn it into a political discussion.


----------



## screenman (12 Feb 2017)

Marmion said:


> There is more of a problem than SC&P, and that is those within Cafe who post political comment and then claim it's not. And then call foul when they are called out. Which then leads to those calling them out being seen as the "baddies", which is all a bit strange.
> 
> But as I said, the forum will become what it will become if posters can continue to post right-wing tosh without challenge. Fun and friendly, my dangly sack.



Excuse the ignorance of this older guy, but what is right wing tosh?


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (12 Feb 2017)

Marmion said:


> There is more of a problem than SC&P, and that is those within Cafe who post political comment and then claim it's not. And then call foul when they are called out. Which then leads to those calling them out being seen as the "baddies", which is all a bit strange.
> 
> But as I said, the forum will become what it will become if posters can continue to post right-wing tosh without challenge. Fun and friendly, my dangly sack.


Hereafter a classic example...



Drago said:


> Even more of a problem when someone starts a conversation in the Café which is going quite swimmingly for several pages, when the Marx Brothers nip across from the Politics Kremlin and do their damnedest to turn it into a political discussion.


----------



## Brandane (12 Feb 2017)

Brandane said:


> Please note, this is a genuine "site support" question and is not intended to become a locked thread about the pro's and cons of SCP..


Oh well, I suppose that was always a touch naive. 
Might as well lock it now, admin, rather than delaying the inevitable .


----------



## User32269 (12 Feb 2017)

Marmion said:


> There is more of a problem than SC&P, and that is those within Cafe who post political comment and then claim it's not. And then call foul when they are called out. Which then leads to those calling them out being seen as the "baddies", which is all a bit strange.
> 
> But as I said, the forum will become what it will become if posters can continue to post right-wing tosh without challenge. Fun and friendly, my dangly sack.


Fair comment, the problem is not about challenging others comments, it appears to me to be posters who use insults and personal, belittling posts with impunity. That is not debate, that is bullying. While the most innocuous thread on other parts of the forum can spiral into spiteful nonsense, it is a fairly rare occurance. On SC&P it was (in my opinion) the norm.


----------



## winjim (12 Feb 2017)

I like bikes.


----------



## Drago (12 Feb 2017)

screenman said:


> Excuse the ignorance of this older guy, but what is right wing tosh?


Anything that's contrary to any opinion voiced by User, Timymynewt, or their more moderate associate, Josef Stalin.


----------



## User32269 (12 Feb 2017)

User13710 said:


> Like this you mean:


I have no input into what others post. I was giving my opinion on SC&P.


----------



## screenman (12 Feb 2017)

User13710 said:


> What happened to the rule about being respectful then?



I thought he was.


----------



## smutchin (12 Feb 2017)

Drago said:


> The lentil eating kaftan wearing communist cuddling seal-not-clubbing left wing revolutionaries are welcome to the politics forum.



You forgot yoghurt-knitting.


----------



## screenman (12 Feb 2017)

User said:


> seriously...right wing tosh are what your opinions are on lincolnshire, hope this is more helpful.



Not really, I was genuinely asking a question.


----------



## smutchin (12 Feb 2017)

Marmion said:


> But as I said, the forum will become what it will become if posters can continue to post right-wing tosh without challenge.



It'll end up becoming like the real world.


----------



## screenman (12 Feb 2017)

User13710 said:


> He was being personal and insulting to named individuals, something that only he and one or two other favourites seem to be able to get away with around here.



I thought he was genuinely answering my question. See I do not really understand left and right, in fact I doubt many others do as nobody has got around to explaining it too me.


----------



## Drago (12 Feb 2017)

User13710 said:


> What happened to the rule about being respectful then?


I'm not one of those who blatantly calls other users 'nobber' etc.

Seriously though, chin up Tiny. I don't want involvement in that type of discussion so I've blocked the politics forum. If you check back I actually have a pretty low I post count in their anyway. Outside of that forum I've no great issue with any of you. Heck, if I ever bumped into you i'd buy you a pint. Some inhabitants of the politics forum don't seem able to separate the internet from real life, and I don't want to be bickering with them on the internet any more than I would down the pub.


----------



## screenman (12 Feb 2017)

User said:


> you are well aware of what it means.



You are wrong on that.


----------



## growingvegetables (12 Feb 2017)

Drago said:


> Anything that's contrary to any opinion voiced by User, Timymynewt, or their more moderate associate, Josef Stalin.


M'lud - I refer you to 


growingvegetables said:


> But you forgot a group - the "sensitive-soul" [my edit - @Drago ain't no sensitive soul; may not even have one ] right-wing nutjob misogynists. So deeply hurt about "always being shouted down". Snowflakes.


----------



## screenman (12 Feb 2017)

User13710 said:


> You expect people to believe that you don't know who Stalin was, and that being accused of associating with him is not a compliment? Come off it.



Went straight over my head.


----------



## fossyant (12 Feb 2017)

User13710 said:


> What happened to the rule about being respectful then?



When was the last time you followed that rule ? (Taking off my mods hat) You really let loose on a new member, then apologised... after.... ?

With no mod interaction !


----------



## The Jogger (12 Feb 2017)

Where do I opt in?


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (12 Feb 2017)

smutchin said:


> It'll end up becoming like the real world.



In the real world I can still challenge the twaddle.


----------



## Drago (12 Feb 2017)

But I bet you don't.


----------



## screenman (12 Feb 2017)

Marmion said:


> In the real world I can still challenge the twaddle.



In the real world people are often not the same as they are in this pretend one.


----------



## fossyant (12 Feb 2017)

User said:


> @User13710 ...the mod hat is never off, I'd be carefull how you reply.



Here we go again !!


----------



## Drago (12 Feb 2017)

Right, I'm off. Lets see how the usual suspects continue to argue without any help from me.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (12 Feb 2017)

Drago said:


> But I bet you don't.


Ah yes, nobody as brave as you...


----------



## User32269 (12 Feb 2017)

Will there be an option to opt into site support now for new members?


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (12 Feb 2017)

Marmion said:


> Ah yes, nobody as brave as you...


Oh no, I was wrong. He's run away.


----------



## jonny jeez (12 Feb 2017)

Marmion said:


> SC&P has become the bastion of right-wing nutjob misogynists who think they are serious
> Cafe has become the bastion of right-wing nutjob misogynists who think they are amusing



Right wing?

Seriously?


----------



## snorri (12 Feb 2017)

screenman said:


> Not really, I was genuinely asking a question.


Best not to ask, just key "what is left and right in politics uk" into a search engine, you don't even need a ? mark.


----------



## fossyant (12 Feb 2017)

User13710 said:


> Actually Fossyant, I resent your implication. I apologised for one rather mean joke, but I am far more respectful on here than you yourself have been lately, and you should be setting an example as a moderator.



I have an opinion as a member, not just as a mod - I volunteer in this role. I am also, as a member, getting a little tired of a small group of forum members who are down right nasty. 

I am also entitled to an opinion as a member of this forum. I am no different to anyone else, other than trying to stop the bun fights. - The boss says this is a family friendly site... we try and do a job of moderating between actually working for a living, and, in my case trying to get fit again after a massively life changing injury whilst cycling... 

I was just stating your reaction to a new member that was not nice at all. Resent me all you like, I personally don't like how you interact with new members.

Had I not been a mod, I might have responded rather than let things happen.


----------



## jonny jeez (12 Feb 2017)

User13710 said:


> Drago, can you not even begin to understand that you are part of the problem?


Can you?


----------



## screenman (12 Feb 2017)

snorri said:


> Best not to ask, just key "what is left and right in politics uk" into a search engine, you don't even need a ? mark.



I never talk about politics, so where does it come into normal conversation.


----------



## jonny jeez (12 Feb 2017)

winjim said:


> I like bikes.


Do you have any evidence to support your assertions


----------



## growingvegetables (12 Feb 2017)

Drago said:


> View attachment 337375
> 
> 
> Right, I'm off. Lets see how the usual suspects continue to argue without any help from me.


You mean you were trolling to create contention and conflict? 























Again?


----------



## snorri (12 Feb 2017)

screenman said:


> I never talk about politics, so where does it come into normal conversation.


Every day in every way, it's unavoidable.


----------



## screenman (12 Feb 2017)

snorri said:


> Every day in every way, it's unavoidable.



But how do I know which is which?


----------



## growingvegetables (12 Feb 2017)

[QUOTE="fossyant, post: 4679583, member: 557"*]When was the last time you followed that rule ?* (Taking off my mods hat) You really let loose on a new member, then apologised... after.... ?

With no mod interaction ![/QUOTE]
Hold on .... come on, @fossyant - you have to see that is out of order?


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (12 Feb 2017)

fossyant said:


> I have an opinion as a member, not just as a mod - I volunteer in this role. I am also, as a member, getting a little tired of a small group of forum members who are down right nasty.
> 
> I am also entitled to an opinion as a member of this forum. I am no different to anyone else, other than trying to stop the bun fights. - The boss says this is a family friendly site... we try and do a job of moderating between actually working for a living, and, in my case trying to get fit again after a massively life changing injury whilst cycling...
> 
> ...


 Your 'nasty' may be another person's "challenge" depending on whether you side with those being challenged or not. I have seen mod messages claiming"nastiness" which to me have been little more than taking the p*ss out of posters making fairly nasty/inappropriate comments. And there is little point reporting them as they remain on view; then when their views are challenged those posts are removed. You get what you create.


----------



## Milkfloat (12 Feb 2017)




----------



## snorri (12 Feb 2017)

screenman said:


> But how do I know which is which?


I helped you by providing a link to put in Google,you have not read many of the results it threw up, have you?


----------



## r04DiE (12 Feb 2017)

Well, I think that this is a fantastic forum, there are lots of people putting lots of work into it, and we must all respect and appreciate that. Still, I have seen people on here being bullied. One looked to have been bullied off of here, and that, I do not like. That is not friendly, let alone family friendly.

Also, the fact that @Flying_Monkey, whom I deeply respect, has raised issues, should set alarm bells ringing. I've been reading his posts since the C+ days and I've never disagreed with him, but have often learned from him. He's got to be one of the most even-handed forum members ever.

My two penneth would be that if you don't like the tone of SCP; don't go in there. Its easy, nobody needs to be babied out of it.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (12 Feb 2017)

r04DiE said:


> Well, I think that this is a fantastic forum, there are lots of people putting lots of work into it, and we must all respect and appreciate that. Still, I have seen people on here being bullied. One looked to have been bullied off of here, and that, I do not like. That is not friendly, let alone family friendly.
> 
> Also, the fact that @Flying_Monkey, whom I deeply respect, has raised issues, should set alarm bells ringing. I've been reading his posts since the C+ days and I've never disagreed with him, but have often learned from him. He's got to be one of the most even-handed forum members ever.
> 
> My two penneth would be that if you don't like the tome of SCP; don't go in there. Its easy, nobody needs to be babied out of it.


As I have posted the real issue is not SC&P. The majority of recent threads which have been locked have either been in café or started off in café. The issue is the posters.


----------



## r04DiE (12 Feb 2017)

Marmion said:


> As I have posted the real issue is not SC&P. The majority of recent threads which have been looked have either been in café or started off in café. The issue is the posters.


I wouldn't disagree.


----------



## theclaud (12 Feb 2017)

r04DiE said:


> I've never disagreed with him


You've not lived!


----------



## pubrunner (12 Feb 2017)

odav said:


> . . . . . . . the problem is not about challenging others comments, it appears to me to be posters who use insults and personal, belittling posts with impunity. That is not debate, that is bullying. While the most innocuous thread on other parts of the forum can spiral into spiteful nonsense, it is a fairly rare occurrence. On SC&P it was (in my opinion) the norm.



@odav , you are entirely correct.

The forum has become increasingly petty recently; there are some, who like to respond to posts with comments such as:

WTF ? or WGAF ? (or similar acronyms) - these are not exactly the most 'constructive' of responses.

Such responses do nothing more than signal hostility and act as a form of virtue signalling to those who share similar views - cue more hostility. Another put-off are the ultra-patronising and (as mentioned above) belittling posts that are made. Those who might object, are (patronisingly) called 'delicate blooms' - or similar.

What I find rather ironic, is that in the 'Personal Matters' section of the forum, 'advice' and 'guidance' in Life matters, is frequently offered those who are scathing of the 'delicate blooms' elsewhere on the forum.

Unfortunately, courtesy and good manners are increasingly in short supply and (IMO) the Mods do a good job, in challenging circumstances.


----------



## RedRider (13 Feb 2017)

This is ars about tit.
If I'd wanted a place to flaunt casual racism, misogyny and prejudice then go crying when someone challenged I'd have joined EDL CC
Very sorry about @Flying_Monkey 's decision but understandable.


----------



## User32269 (13 Feb 2017)

pubrunner said:


> @odav , you are entirely correct.
> 
> The forum has become increasingly petty recently; there are some, who like to respond to posts with comments such as:
> 
> ...


Don't get me wrong, I agree with challenging racist and homophobic posts. Coming from the left myself, I can laugh at certain posters who challenge my views with nonsense about gulags and ice picks. I think that says a lot about them, more than I could say by insulting them. 
I am embarrassed that I would be associated with a group of posters on SC&P because I come from a left wing perspective. They are pack hunting bullies. Not prepared to accept that others may hold views they find uncomfortable, yet not willing to engage in civil debate. Roly eyed smilies, erroneous accusations, and deeply personal insults being the preferred weapons. Cowardly keyboard warrior behaviour.
Left wing or right wing, if poster make regular use of personal insults or attacks, they should be excluded from that thread. It discourages others from contributing and intimidates people.
Just my opinion.


----------



## Pat "5mph" (13 Feb 2017)

I think @Drago can be quite funny, even though his habit of spouting sillyness just for the sake of controversy is as irritating as his avatars.
Anyhow, I'm not opting out as I need to keep updated about Brexit and I don't have time to read all the different newspapers: either I read the papers, or I read ride reports on CC, guess which one I prefer?
SC&P has helped my journey of self discovery: I honestly did not know I was one of them right wing sexists prejudiced bigots, but there you go.
CC is still the best for all things cycling though, let's not forget why we joined this excellent forum.


----------



## screenman (13 Feb 2017)

User said:


> grant me patience, what you post about brexit and how the local lincolnshire people are beneath you and how the place is flooded with foreigners isn't political, you are having a laugh if you expect me to believe you.



I think that goes to show then that quite often we come across wrong when writing on the forum, as opposed to real life.

Yes I am concerned about Brexit, certainly for poorer people, is that wrong.

Foreigners in Lincolnshire I support which is the opposite of most in the county, is that wrong. Fact is I tend to see people as people regardless of where they were born. My father was a communist and a racist, I do not hold his views, thankfully.

I have never considered myself political, I shall have to consider that more.


----------



## screenman (13 Feb 2017)

snorri said:


> I helped you by providing a link to put in Google,you have not read many of the results it threw up, have you?



Done three tests so far this morning each has me as a left wing, still researching.


----------



## Mugshot (13 Feb 2017)

I don't understand this, why aren't people capable of ignoring something they have no interest in? In exactly the same way as happened with the helmet debate some industrial scale and in my opinion blatant trolling has resulted in a decision which is knee jerk and out of all proportion.
It's not my house, but this makes no sense.


----------



## Hitchington (13 Feb 2017)

There definately needs to be a "opt-in" option for the "Any _good _jokes?" thread with the amount of shite posted in there.


----------



## pubrunner (13 Feb 2017)

odav said:


> Roly eyed smilies, *erroneous accusations*, and deeply personal insults being the preferred weapons. Cowardly keyboard warrior behaviour.



Yes, I've been on the receiving end of this myself :

https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/my-new-hero-seb.213460/page-3

A well-known member accused me of '_leaping to Farage's defence_' - which was rather perplexing, as I hadn't said anything even remotely complimentary about Farage in the entire thread. I thank @User43827 and @jonny jeez for pointing this out to the offender; this example aptly illustrates how some actually don't read posts thoroughly before they respond - they are simply looking for disagreement and respond in kind. 

I could reply with a futile "WGAF ?" or "WTF ?" - so popular with many on here, but what would be the point ? Is that what someone might refer to as 'calling someone out' ?


----------



## Mugshot (13 Feb 2017)

odav said:


> Roly eyed smilies, erroneous accusations, and deeply personal insults being the preferred weapons. Cowardly keyboard warrior behaviour.


Do you not think that there is an issue when everything you describe is permitted towards regular posters in SCP? I have often seen regular SCP posters described in extremely unflattering terms in several sub forums. These posts are frequently met with a barrage of likes and sniggering replies.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (13 Feb 2017)

Marmion said:


> ...who post political comment and then claim it's not.





screenman said:


> I have never considered myself political, I shall have to consider that more.



Opinions expressed on matters such as immigration, Brexit, someone else's political alignment, views on women's position within society, your view on people's relative "worth" etc are political. 



pubrunner said:


> I could reply with a futile "WGAF ?" or "WTF ?" - so popular with many on here, but what would be the point ? Is that what someone might refer to as 'calling someone out' ?



C'mon pubbers, you know very well that people get "called out" and challenged with considerably more substance than that and that, mostly, such responses are expressions of complete exasperation to posters who repeatedly express views which would not be tolerated* in "real life" or who are quite clearly trolling. 

*despite what Drago claimed up-thread some of us do challenge people in the real world, I even get paid for it


----------



## GrumpyGregry (13 Feb 2017)

Mugshot said:


> Do you not think that there is an issue when everything you describe is permitted towards regular posters in SCP? *I have* often *seen regular SCP posters described in extremely unflattering terms in several sub forums. These posts are frequently met with a barrage of likes and sniggering replies*.


^This.

The "usual suspects" of SCP, and a couple of others, have, in here, and in person, taught me more about cycling, cycle advocacy, pro-cycling activism, how to ride, et cetera, than the rest of the forum members put together.


----------



## jonny jeez (13 Feb 2017)

Marmion said:


> As I have posted the real issue is not SC&P. The majority of recent threads which have been locked have either been in café or started off in café. The issue is the posters.


Yes but those who are the issue don't realise...or refuse to accept that fact and push the blame onto other posters.

we are all guilty of this.


----------



## User32269 (13 Feb 2017)

Mugshot said:


> Do you not think that there is an issue when everything you describe is permitted towards regular posters in SCP? I have often seen regular SCP posters described in extremely unflattering terms in several sub forums. These posts are frequently met with a barrage of likes and sniggering replies.





odav said:


> It will be made a better place if posters who break the rules of the forum are excluded





odav said:


> Left wing or right wing, if poster make regular use of personal insults or attacks, they should be excluded from that thread



I think anyone who regularly uses personal insults should be excluded from any thread.


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (13 Feb 2017)

Shame to see FM go. One of the few who could articulate a position without descending into abusive behaviour. Often disagreed with him but respected him enormously.


----------



## screenman (13 Feb 2017)

Thank you Marmiom I honestly did not know my views were political. Odd when people who vote opposite to me have the very same views or is that something different?

Please do not think I am winding up, I am honestly very ignorant about this subject.


----------



## Spinney (13 Feb 2017)

odav said:


> I think anyone who regularly uses personal insults should be excluded from any thread.


Agreed. But there are a few posters who are quite skilled at winding up others, using fairly subtle needling in posts that, taken alone, are not the kind of thing that would be moderated, but end up causing the victim to lose their rag. And then it's the victim who often ends up with posts deleted. That kind of thing is very difficult to moderate fairly - if some of the needling posts are deleted, there are often complaints about unfair moderation, cos 'what was wrong with my post' etc.


----------



## jonny jeez (13 Feb 2017)

Marmion said:


> Your 'nasty' may be another person's "challenge" depending on whether you side with those being challenged or not. I have seen mod messages claiming"nastiness" which to me have been little more than taking the p*ss out of posters making fairly nasty/inappropriate comments. And there is little point reporting them as they remain on view; then when their views are challenged those posts are removed. You get what you create.


Do you think that you are alone in feeling this way, that you are somehow individually persecuted.

It works both ways.

Firstly, what you describe above is not always true, or at least is only true for you, from your personal.perspective.

Many posters do not take the time to read posts before replying with either aggressive or worse, passive aggressive responses which invariably have a trolling effect.

Other posters never actually state an opinion...which is infuriating but prefer hide their thoughts while they pick out single words and try to derail the comment ,or worse, to appear smart. Rather than actually being smart, which many members, even those who's posts I don't personally enjoy, clearly are.

Neither of the above activities add anything to discussion and only serve to make SC&P the unattractive silo of preening self esteem that it has become.

You get more opinion in cafe, because cafe has a wider audience, which is why some leak their discussions towards that board for debate and I suspect why others seek to claw these debates back into the silo of comfortable status quo.


----------



## jonny jeez (13 Feb 2017)

Spinney said:


> Agreed. But there are a few posters who are quite skilled at winding up others, using fairly subtle needling in posts that, taken alone, are not the kind of thing that would be moderated, but end up causing the victim to lose their rag. And then it's the victim who often ends up with posts deleted. That kind of thing is very difficult to moderate fairly - if some of the needling posts are deleted, there are often complaints about unfair moderation, cos 'what was wrong with my post' etc.


Plus one to the above.

Insipid activities like those described above serve no purpose at all.


----------



## PeteXXX (13 Feb 2017)

I've not opted in but still see SC & P posts. I just choose not to read them.


----------



## SheilaH (13 Feb 2017)

Standard forum stuff, no?

Problem is, its a mixed-ability forum with a range of posters coming for a range of reasons. Very few arrive without an agenda, and for some the agenda is just to troll. That counts for both sides of the political divide. I can think of two posters in particular, one on each side, whose contributions are worthless and whose intentions are just to insult. One just posts tedious crap about 'lefties', and the other pompously claims greater knowledge over others whilst never actually imparting any but sees the self-putative
intellectual superiority as justification in itself to post insults. I'd like both of them to feck off, actually, even though one of them is a serial liker of my posts.

What is my agenda? Hopefully to learn something, but also to distill my own thoughts, but I'm not beyond an impatient snark when faced with bigotry presented as common-sense. Shame about the Monkey though. He knows some stuff about some stuff, and posts were nearly always substantive.


----------



## cisamcgu (13 Feb 2017)

Drago said:


> Even more of a problem when someone starts a conversation in the Café which is going quite swimmingly for several pages, when the Marx Brothers nip across from the Politics Kremlin and do their damnedest to turn it into a political discussion.


Yes very true, and don't, whatever you do, mention disliking Jazz


----------



## Spinney (13 Feb 2017)

screenman said:


> Thank you Marmiom I honestly did not know my views were political. Odd when people who vote opposite to me have the very same views or is that something different?
> 
> Please do not think I am winding up, I am honestly very ignorant about this subject.


What is politics? Try the video below. (And may I respectfully suggest that any continuation of this particular strand might be better in a thread of its own?)


----------



## User32269 (13 Feb 2017)

I can appreciate that. I have seen apparently innocent threads started, not in SC&P, that have been blatant trolling and have decended into lunacy. Subtlety done at first, things like that must be a nightmare to mod!
There is a difference between losing your rag over a post winding you up, and having a posting history containing a substantial number of derogatory and personally insulting posts.
I will chose not to opt into SC&P, purely because I am on the forum because I like riding and building up old bikes. I see no point in being part of a sub forum that winds me up.
Edit: forgot to press "reply" to @Spinney


----------



## Mugshot (13 Feb 2017)

Spinney said:


> Agreed. But there are a few posters who are quite skilled at winding up others, using fairly subtle needling in posts that, taken alone, are not the kind of thing that would be moderated, but end up causing the victim to lose their rag. And then it's the victim who often ends up with posts deleted. That kind of thing is very difficult to moderate fairly - if some of the needling posts are deleted, there are often complaints about unfair moderation, cos 'what was wrong with my post' etc.


Or the not so subtle starting a whole thread which is very little like needling and far more like a great big stabby unsubtle knife.


----------



## Big Andy (13 Feb 2017)

jonny jeez said:


> Right wing?
> 
> Seriously?


That made me smile somewhat, couldn't decide if the poster was being ironic or was serious.


----------



## Mugshot (13 Feb 2017)

jonny jeez said:


> Do you think that you are alone in feeling this way, that you are somehow individually persecuted.
> 
> It works both ways.
> 
> ...



Ignoring the rather OTT descriptions, doesn't this suggest that it's the cafe that should be opt in and/or more heavily moderated?


----------



## Spinney (13 Feb 2017)

Mugshot said:


> Ignoring the rather OTT descriptions, doesn't this suggest that it's the cafe that should be opt in and/or more heavily moderated?


No, because those threads are a tiny minority of the threads in cafe.


----------



## pubrunner (13 Feb 2017)

swl said:


> Shame to see FM go. One of the few who could articulate a position without descending into abusive behaviour. Often disagreed with him but respected him enormously.



He's threatened to leave quite a few times in the past and he has taken 'breaks' from the forum, so I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him back at some stage.


----------



## jonny jeez (13 Feb 2017)

Mugshot said:


> Ignoring the rather OTT descriptions, doesn't this suggest that it's the cafe that should be opt in and/or more heavily moderated?


I've no doubt it will, following the myopia that results in this opt thingy (which I am not in agreement with BTW, I stated so way back on page one) which will send debate that way instead.

Right now though (and I am not a mod so don't really know) I suspect cafe needs comparatively less administration than sc&p as many members of the latter dont feel comfortable posting in cafe, because of its light hearted and non empirical nature...and as such things stay fairly light.


----------



## Inertia (13 Feb 2017)

Very dissapointed by this and also by the loss of members because of it, it seems like a way to get rid of SCP by hiding it so eventually it will die a slow death. If its that bad just get rid of it instead of trying to please everyone and please noone. More moderation would have helped, obvious insults and calling people names carried on without any moderation as far as I could see. In the end not every part of the cyclechat is for everyone, politics is a subject which can contain heated discussions and its hard to take that out of it.


----------



## pubrunner (13 Feb 2017)

GrumpyGregry said:


> The "usual suspects" of SCP, . . .



The identity of the "usual suspects" surely depends on one's political stance ?

This ^^^ might be broken-down to the 'usual suspects' of the Left and the 'usual suspects' of the Right.


----------



## theclaud (13 Feb 2017)

Spinney said:


> Agreed. But there are a few posters who are quite skilled at winding up others, using fairly subtle needling in posts that, taken alone, are not the kind of thing that would be moderated, but end up causing the victim to lose their rag. And then it's the victim who often ends up with posts deleted. That kind of thing is very difficult to moderate fairly - if some of the needling posts are deleted, there are often complaints about unfair moderation, cos 'what was wrong with my post' etc.


Yes. There's an egregious blue-and-yellow example. You say it's difficult to moderate, and not having done it I'll have to take your word for that, but everyone who actually discusses anything in SC&P knew what was going on because they were involved in the threads. And yet he was allowed to persist because he exploited the moderators' disdain for the sub-forum.


----------



## theclaud (13 Feb 2017)

Spinney said:


> What is politics? Try the video below. (And may I respectfully suggest that any continuation of this particular strand might be better in a thread of its own?)



I've liked this, but I'm astonished that you've posted it, given what appears to be a quest to purge sections like the Cafe of all political consciousness.


----------



## theclaud (13 Feb 2017)

User13710 said:


> Yes, and I thought we'd lost Claud lately but she hasn't quite quit yet .


----------



## Mugshot (13 Feb 2017)

Spinney said:


> No, because those threads are a tiny minority of the threads in cafe.


Surely they shouldn't be in there at all?


----------



## Mugshot (13 Feb 2017)

jonny jeez said:


> Right now though (and I am not a mod so don't really know) I suspect cafe needs comparatively less administration than sc&p as many members of the latter dont feel comfortable posting in cafe, because of its light hearted and non empirical nature...and as such things stay fairly light.


I suspect cafe _gets_ comparatively less administration, although I'm not sure it's for the reasons you've stated.


----------



## Dogtrousers (13 Feb 2017)

9 pages. Oh my word. Shall I bother reading it all? 

Nah.

I will add something on-topic though. Another forum I'm active on has a similar sub forum, and that's always been opt-in. No one much minded about that, so I don't see why it's in the least bit contentious. 

I think it's also members-only and off-limits to search bots too. Dunno if SCP is too.

They also have a similar forum to the cafe, but that's strictly for stuff off the broad topic of the site. On topic stuff gets moved to the appropriate on-topic forum. There are a few anomalies here, but it's possible to work around them, for instance although I ignore-node the cafe which is broadly speaking non-cycling, I subscribe to "Your ride today" which for some reason is in the cafe.


----------



## jonny jeez (13 Feb 2017)

User13710 said:


> It is odd how things that are posted in Café get dismissed as 'harmless banter', while the same things posted in SC&P are regarded as evidence of bad character.


I don't see the same rounding and bullying, sniping or even passive aggressive behaviour in cafe. To me that's the poor behaviour that drags sc&p down.

Its possible that the biggest offenders in sc&p get more than they bargin for when they try the same behaviour in cafe, simply because more people visit cafe.

Because of this volume of readership its a lot more like real life rather that a members club. As such people have to watch their step a little as they would in real life.


----------



## jonny jeez (13 Feb 2017)

theclaud said:


> Yes. There's an egregious blue-and-yellow example. You say it's difficult to moderate, and not having done it I'll have to take your word for that, but everyone who actually discusses anything in SC&P knew what was going on because they were involved in the threads. And yet he was allowed to persist because he exploited the moderators' disdain for the sub-forum.


I think its fair to say that their is more than one example.


----------



## Crackle (13 Feb 2017)

I'm not too interested in the scp debate, what I have noticed is the forum is becoming quieter and that those of us with long teeth make more noise in an emptier room. There's less and less, it seems, to read and participate in. I thought perhaps it was just me but the stats seem to back it up







Edit: Please see Shaun's answer to this graph before quoting it

https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/scp-blocked-for-non-opt-inners.214066/post-4680366


----------



## jonny jeez (13 Feb 2017)

User13710 said:


> You may not, others do.


Which is my point. Whilst one person finds one practice acceptable, the next person does not. I don't feel this behaviour exists in cafe, you do. Yet you feel it doesn't exist in sc&p ...I do.

Clearly we all see this from our own perspective and cannot...must not assume that this perspective is universal.

We should all take a look at our own behaviour.


----------



## jonny jeez (13 Feb 2017)

Crackle said:


> I'm not too interested in the scp debate, what I have noticed is the forum is becoming quieter and that those of us with long teeth make more noise in an emptier room. There's less and less, it seems, to read and participate in. I thought perhaps it was just me but the stats seem to back it up
> 
> View attachment 337445


A perfect example of the problem. You are not interested in the debate but are complaining of its effects


----------



## theclaud (13 Feb 2017)

jonny jeez said:


> Which is my point. Whilst one person finds one practice acceptable, the next person does not. I don't feel this behaviour exists in cafe, you do. Yet you feel it doesn't exist in sc&p ...I do.
> 
> Clearly we all see this from our own perspective and cannot...must not assume that this perspective is universal.
> 
> *We should all take a look at our own behaviour*.



Well go on then. Saying you should do something is not the same as doing it.


----------



## theclaud (13 Feb 2017)

jonny jeez said:


> A perfect example of the problem. You are not interested in the debate but are complaining of its effects


Maybe _it's not an effect of this debate_, but an effect of something else?


----------



## Crackle (13 Feb 2017)

jonny jeez said:


> A perfect example of the problem. You are not interested in the debate but are complaining of its effects


Has this debate travelled back in time then.


----------



## jonny jeez (13 Feb 2017)

theclaud said:


> Well go on then. Saying you should do something is not the same as doing it.


You first


----------



## jonny jeez (13 Feb 2017)

theclaud said:


> Maybe _it's not an effect of this debate_, but an effect of something else?


And maybe its not.


----------



## jonny jeez (13 Feb 2017)

User13710 said:


> Where have I said that? Please try not to attribute things to me that I haven't said.


So to be clear, are you agreeing that the problem.of rounding, sniping and passive aggressive "bullying" does exist in sc&p and contributes to it's decline in attraction?


----------



## Big Andy (13 Feb 2017)

looking at the original point of this thread and making a certain area opt-in. Surely all the areas are opt-in anyway? Nobody is forced to read anything or post, (although I do appreciate some can't help themselves  )

There seems to have been a lot of "tackling the man" instead of the ball just recently which really doesn't help. We should take a bit of time to decide whether our posts actually add to the discussion before hitting the post reply button.


----------



## theclaud (13 Feb 2017)

jonny jeez said:


> You first


Right - you didn't mean it then...

theclaud has plenty of faults, which I've had occasion to acknowledge before (the periodic hand-wringing about SC&P is not a new thing, after all). She is combative; she can be condescending; she shoots from the hip; she enjoys the odd in-joke; she sometimes takes an ignoble pleasure in the discomfiture of others, especially if it is headed flounceward. In her favour I think she is frank, forgiving and (I hope) textually perceptive. She tries to be precise. You may disagree. She understands that quite a lot of men do not like women, fictionalized or otherwise, who notice things and answer back. The nice thing about our fictional forum counterparts is that they don't have to reproduce all our shortcomings, and are not subject to precisely the same pressures. 

Over to you. I'm happy to offer an analysis if you won't.


----------



## Mugshot (13 Feb 2017)

Crackle said:


> I'm not too interested in the scp debate, what I have noticed is the forum is becoming quieter and that those of us with long teeth make more noise in an emptier room. There's less and less, it seems, to read and participate in. I thought perhaps it was just me but the stats seem to back it up
> 
> View attachment 337445


Good gracious, that seems quite a tumble in figures. I wonder if there's a correlation to anything specifically.


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (13 Feb 2017)

Mugshot said:


> Good gracious, that seems quite a tumble in figures. I wonder if there's a correlation to anything specifically.



Seems to have peaked in June before falling off afterwards. Was there anything happened in June that had a lot of people talking?


----------



## Crackle (13 Feb 2017)

Mugshot said:


> Good gracious, that seems quite a tumble in figures. I wonder if there's a correlation to anything specifically.


Could be anything from the way it's indexed to another external effect, I was hoping Shaun might offer a clue. Does sorta co-incide with Brexit as per swl's post. I would hate cc to be a victim of Brexit.


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (13 Feb 2017)

Would like to see it over a longer timescale


----------



## jonny jeez (13 Feb 2017)

theclaud said:


> Right - you didn't mean it then...
> 
> theclaud has plenty of faults, which I've had occasion to acknowledge before (the periodic hand-wringing about SC&P is not a new thing, after all). She is combative; she can be condescending; she shoots from the hip; she enjoys the odd in-joke; she sometimes takes an ignoble pleasure in the discomfiture of others, especially if it is headed flounceward. In her favour I think she is frank, forgiving and (I hope) textually perceptive. She tries to be precise. You may disagree. She understands that quite a lot of men do not like women, fictionalized or otherwise, who notice things and answer back. The nice thing about our fictional forum counterparts is that they don't have to reproduce all our shortcomings, and are not subject to precisely the same pressures.
> 
> Over to you. I'm happy to offer an analysis if you won't.


I wasn't asking for your favourite review. I was asking for us all...you included...to accept that we need to change if sc&p is to survive.

So yes, I do mean it please dont put words in my mouth.

This is totally typical of the issue. I am trying to gain acceptance that we all need to change, I accept that and attempt to showbtgis frequently in threads. I don't see that same acceptance from others...you included

Its as if accepting that we are wrong...is a failure of some kind.

I believe I try, harder than some to see the impact of my posts and reply's from the other side and am happy to admit if i am wrong without sneering, without sarcasm or without having to have the last word.

My comments in this post are not all directed at you, specifically...but as you were interested enough to respond....


----------



## theclaud (13 Feb 2017)

jonny jeez said:


> I wasn't asking for your favourite review. I was asking for us all...you included...to accept that we need to change if sc&p is to survive.
> 
> So yes, I do mean it please dont put words in my mouth.
> 
> ...



Right. So you say that we all need to examine and change our behaviour but you don't think there's anything wrong with yours... Gotcha.


----------



## jonny jeez (13 Feb 2017)

theclaud said:


> Right. So you say that we all need to examine and change our behaviour but you don't think there's anything wrong with yours... Gotcha.


And around and around and around we go.

Perhaps read my posts before falling to the default position that others in this very thread are describing.
..yaddah yadsah yaddah


----------



## Shaun (13 Feb 2017)

Sorry @Crackle but your "alternative facts" are unfortunately inaccurate. The visitor figures for that period are:







This is typical and includes the natural peaks and troughs we get through winter, spring, summer and autumn. Your point about threads is reasonable though; we have had fewer threads this past year, so that's something everyone could work on. More threads, more discussion, more interest. 

Cheers,
Shaun


----------



## Crackle (13 Feb 2017)

Shaun said:


> Sorry @Crackle but your "alternative facts" are unfortunately inaccurate. The visitor figures for that period are:
> 
> View attachment 337474
> 
> ...


I am pleased to hear it and also pleased to hear I'm not completely imagining things.

Now if only the voices would go away.


----------



## theclaud (13 Feb 2017)

jonny jeez said:


> And around and around and around we go.


Indeed.


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (13 Feb 2017)

Don't know what an "SC&P" is so I'm content with opting into it should I ever wish to find out.


----------



## jonny jeez (13 Feb 2017)

User14044mountain said:


> I just wonder whether some of the issues that people perceive happening in SC&P are a microcosm of what society is experiencing as a result of Brexit and Trump. I find it hard to respect several members of my family for voting as they did, or friends who think that Trump is exactly what is needed so sort out the US and western world. These are very emotive issues which can't be resolved by reason, facts and logic. When the usual strategies for constructing arguments fail, I for one, like many others resort to ad hominem responses - which I then regret as I should be better at arguing my corner. BTW our politicians aren't particularly good role-models at the moment either.


I think you are onto something bit don't agree with it all being about the emotive.

I do think that we all......maybe half... of us are fed up with political spoon feeding and are beginning to open our eyes and kick out more.

So in some ways, perhaps the protest about this section is similar to the protest about politics in life.

And I accept the irony, that some are making the wrong connection, are adding 2+2 and getting 5, I accept that I have done this myself but that does not justify the continued behaviour or status quo.

Any how, back to the op...shame the section is now opt in...it is a dead man walking.


----------



## Dogtrousers (13 Feb 2017)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Don't know what an "SC&P" is so I'm content with opting into it should I ever wish to find out.


Saveloy, Chips and Peas


----------



## Inertia (13 Feb 2017)

jonny jeez said:


> Any how, back to the op...shame the section is now opt in...it is a dead man walking.


If it goes, I guess people can discuss politics in the cafe, in a light and fun way of course


----------



## jonny jeez (13 Feb 2017)

theclaud said:


> Indeed.


Ok, so we are at an impass.

What say we break the cycle, do somethin truly different and attempt to set a tone.

This is not a trap, I am not trying to set you up, score point, win some perceived argument...neither of us will do the latter that's for sure.

I'll start.

Sincerely, I believe you to be smart, witty, fearless and most of all I find you interesting. I start to reqd the vast majority of your posts with one view and end up with another, that is the impact you can have on me and the likes of me.

I hope that we can maintain a forum where that environment can not just survive, but where it can prosper.

Over to you. And if you don't wish to reply that's fine, I have not won, I've not had the last word I've not scored any points...im just trying my best is all.


----------



## Shaun (13 Feb 2017)

As to the opt-in change - what I've noticed, having returned more fully to CC in recent weeks (after far too long away), is that personal and political differences between some members are causing rifts and problems throughout CC and certain behaviours are stifling threads to the point where members are just giving up trying to have any sort of discussion or debate. It's not healthy and is something I am working towards addressing.

Nobody joins CycleChat to talk politics because it is not visible to guests. I would like to change this in the future and open it up along the lines of the Cafe so we can stop the whole "us and them" silliness (_and I can make a small fortune on banners ads from all the "drama" and buy a small island in the Caribbean _), but it needs some changes to get us there.

The opt-in makes the initial experience of new members match the one they've had as a guest. They won't see the politics threads and won't be tempted to "dive in" before getting a feel for the place. It will be easy to find for anyone who _does_ want to dive straight - signposted in the welcome message, sticky in the Cafe (which most people find quite quickly) and support forum - but I'd like to at least make participation, for now, an _active_ choice for members.

I've been reviewing moderation and formalised some of the guidelines into specific rules that the moderators can apply without the need for discussion or deliberation. These will be published shortly and should add transparency and consistency for key problems that we feel most negatively affect the community. There will also be an escalation process for the most damaging behaviours that will lead to initial short-term exclusions, and eventual permanent ban.

In particular, I want to address insults and personal attacks and the nit-picking at other people's opinions without offering any of your own for scrutiny. There are other things too, but these seem to be the key things that are annoying people at the moment.

*We actually have a fantastic community that offers loads of help to fellow cyclists and is a treasure trove of information, advice, humour, understanding, intelligent debate and care for each other that I have not seen anywhere else; it just needs a bit of careful rebalance to address some of the niggling issues.*

Cheers,
Shaun


----------



## Dogtrousers (13 Feb 2017)

jonny jeez said:


> What say we break the cycle


Isn't that somewhat against the spirit of the forum?
Aren't we supposed to mend them?


----------



## psmiffy (13 Feb 2017)

Shaun said:


> In particular, I want to address insults and personal attacks and the nit-picking at other people's opinions without offering any of your own for scrutiny. There are other things too, but these seem to be the key things that are annoying people at the moment.



Like very much


----------



## Asa Post (13 Feb 2017)

I think it's wonderful that a thread about opting in to SC&P has quickly become an excellent example of why it's a good idea to have an opt-in.

Keep up the good work, everyone.


----------



## Pat "5mph" (13 Feb 2017)

theclaud said:


> The nice thing about our fictional forum counterparts is that they don't have to reproduce all our shortcomings, and are not subject to precisely the same pressures.


This surprises me: not the statement, but the fact that you consider "The Claud" not to be really you. Have you actually made the forum persona up consciously, on purpose, I mean, or did you realize after a few postings?
I like making fiction up, but would never "fictionalize" myself, so to speak, couldn't keep it up, would be weir too on meeting forum members in person.
Anyhow, you are the only regular of SC&P that I enjoy reading.
Others are excellent for info, but one needs to extrapolate that info first.
The Claud's views are at times too extreme for me, but she is never insulting to other members nor dismissing, she is also ironic, not aggressive 



Shaun said:


> I would like to change this in the future and open it up along the lines of the Cafe so we can stop the whole "us and them" silliness (_and I can make a small fortune on banners ads from all the "drama" and buy a small island in the Caribbean _)


You are onto something there: some internet "fights" are very entertaining, not that I ever followed one on other places without registering ... erm ...several cat forums spring to mind


----------



## Inertia (13 Feb 2017)

Pat "5mph" said:


> This surprises me: not the statement, but the fact that you consider "The Claud" not to be really you. Have you actually made the forum persona up consciously, on purpose, I mean, or did you realize after a few postings?
> I like making fiction up, but would never "fictionalize" myself, so to speak, couldn't keep it up, would be weir too on meeting forum members in person.
> Anyhow, you are the only regular of SC&P that I enjoy reading.
> Others are excellent for info, but one needs to extrapolate that info first.
> ...


theclaud abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' she's out there.


----------



## Mugshot (13 Feb 2017)

Pat "5mph" said:


> This surprises me: not the statement, but the fact that you consider "The Claud" not to be really you. Have you actually made the forum persona up consciously, on purpose, I mean, or did you realize after a few postings?


Of course theclaud is made up, IRL theclaud is a massive bricklayer from Sunderland called Dave.


----------



## pubrunner (13 Feb 2017)

Pat "5mph" said:


> The Claud's views are at times too extreme for me, but she is never insulting to other members . . .



Not my experience, when I was (tentatively) descending some b@st@rd of a steep hill in Wales.

I remember something along the lines of . . .

"_Pubby, you're a 'bleep', 'bleep' wimp . . . etc., etc._" . . . . . . . Which, to be fair, I was.



Pat "5mph" said:


> . . . . . . . , not aggressive



Apart from when fighting to be served first in a pub.


----------



## Pat "5mph" (13 Feb 2017)

[QUOTE 4680645, member: 43827"]Incidentally, I always wondered if her username came from a well known pub in Cardiff, given her liking for beer.[/QUOTE]
I think not, could of course be wrong 
Sorry @theclaud the "other place" seems to have spewed up your real name some time ago, I realized but did not impose


----------



## GrumpyGregry (13 Feb 2017)

[QUOTE 4680036, member: 43827"]That is always an issue with any form of internet communications. Some people may be nice as pie in person, but put them behind a keyboard on anything contentious and they cannot stop the pathetic flow of snide brain farts.

I do not dislike anyone on this forum as I do not know them, but I dislike the attitudes some display online.[/QUOTE]
Generally I think their attitudes expressed here and their behaviour in person(s) are pretty consistent and congruent.


----------



## Pale Rider (13 Feb 2017)

I would like to suggest a list of banned words and phrases for the brave new world of SC&P.

Each of the following is either bumptious waffle or just drivel.

Mansplaining
False equivalence
Conflating
Substantive
Straw man argument

I'm tempted to add 'alternative facts', but I'm hoping the fad for that one will pass on its own.


----------



## GrumpyGregry (13 Feb 2017)

pubrunner said:


> The identity of the "usual suspects" surely depends on one's political stance ?
> 
> This ^^^ might be broken-down to the 'usual suspects' of the Left and the 'usual suspects' of the Right.


Generally, in SCP banterland, that term is used to describe the same group who are often dismissed as 'Lefties' even though some of them may not be of the Left, politically.


----------



## GrumpyGregry (13 Feb 2017)

theclaud said:


> In her favour I think she is frank, forgiving and (I hope) textually perceptive. She tries to be precise. You may disagree. *She understands that quite a lot of men do not like women*.


One of the things SCP and the usual suspects have done, over the years, is make me realise quite how often that is true, and how often I need to challenge my own unconscious attitudes in the matter.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (13 Feb 2017)

jonny jeez said:


> Do you think that you are alone in feeling this way, that you are somehow individually persecuted.


I am not sure how you could think I was expressing an opinion which I thought was unique to my experience and I am not sure how you got to thinking that I feel persecuted.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (13 Feb 2017)

User3094 said:


> All the interesting people are going. Dellzeqq and now the Monkey and Gary in the same week. Sad times.


Fear not smeggers, I am still here. When I flounce, you'll be the first to know


----------



## GrumpyGregry (13 Feb 2017)

Shut the darned thing down for 90 days. Like a pub that loses its license temporarily.


----------



## EltonFrog (13 Feb 2017)

I can not understand why there has been a 12 page discussion about a web page. Post/don't post who cares? (rhetorical question, I ain't really interested, the irony of typing this message is not lost on me...no really, I am not interested....seriously.).


----------



## Dogtrousers (13 Feb 2017)

The odd thing about SC&P, on the few occasions I've ventured in there, as with quite a few of the posts in this thread, is that I can tell that people are arguing, are very angry and don't like each other, but I can't for the life of me figure out what they're arguing _about_. Even looking at thread titles doesn't help.


----------



## GrumpyGregry (13 Feb 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> The odd thing about SC&P, on the few occasions I've ventured in there, as with quite a few of the posts in this thread, is that I can tell that people are arguing, are very angry and don't like each other, but I can't for the life of me figure out what they're arguing _about_. Even looking at thread titles doesn't help.


The Fascists think all the non-Facists are Commies and the Commies think all the non-Commies are Fascists.

That covers about 80% of the threads.

Another 10% are where the Brexiters think the Remainers are unpatriotic whiners and the Remainers think the Brexiters are idiots.


----------



## theclaud (13 Feb 2017)

Pale Rider said:


> I would like to suggest a list of banned words and phrases for the brave new world of SC&P.
> [...]
> Mansplaining
> False equivalence
> ...


That would certainly be very convenient for your M.O.


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (13 Feb 2017)

This is what happens when you allow portable computers into the kitchen.




That's a joke btw. I love women, I have one of my own


----------



## Pale Rider (13 Feb 2017)

theclaud said:


> That would certainly be very convenient for your M.O.



Do you think there's a plan?

All made up as I go along.



User13710 said:


> Apparently, though, 'squealing' will be allowed as a description of input from women, referencing as it does their annoying little high-pitched voices.



'Referencing' is another we could add to the list.

Thanks.


----------



## theclaud (13 Feb 2017)

Pat "5mph" said:


> This surprises me: not the statement, but the fact that you consider "The Claud" not to be really you. Have you actually made the forum persona up consciously, on purpose, I mean, or did you realize after a few postings?
> I like making fiction up, but would never "fictionalize" myself, so to speak, couldn't keep it up, would be weir too on meeting forum members in person.
> Anyhow, you are the only regular of SC&P that I enjoy reading.
> Others are excellent for info, but one needs to extrapolate that info first.
> The Claud's views are at times too extreme for me, but she is never insulting to other members nor dismissing, she is also ironic, not aggressive


I don't mean it's an inauthentic persona - I just mean it's different to the one in the pub. Or in a letter. Or on the bike. Or on another bit of the internet. It's inevitable that it will be, because the form is different. You may as well make that work in for you rather than against. We are all, for example, the same size here. I hope you don't think it's unfair if I suggest that, although being a person of robust character and strong opinions, you typically avoid conflict. That's not wrong, but I would say that for a small woman it's more essential in the pub than it is on here, so it doesn't _need _to be that way. When people on here say 'you wouldn't say that to my face', they are just acknowledging that the form of interaction deprives them of their ability to silence you by intimidation. Good.

Oh and thanks for the kind words.


----------



## theclaud (13 Feb 2017)

Pale Rider said:


> Do you think there's a plan?


Absolutely not. Just a lack of imagination and a fear of scrutiny.


----------



## theclaud (13 Feb 2017)

Mugshot said:


> Of course theclaud is made up, IRL theclaud is a massive bricklayer from Sunderland called Dave.


Busted.


----------



## theclaud (13 Feb 2017)

pubrunner said:


> Not my experience, when I was (tentatively) descending some b@st@rd of a steep hill in Wales.
> 
> I remember something along the lines of . . .
> 
> ...


Bradley Wiggins might have been, er, referenced.


----------



## Crackle (13 Feb 2017)

theclaud said:


> Bradley Wiggins might have been, er, referenced.


I've no memory of that. I was trying to stay out of his way. Which actually should have been easy. Just take the line you're supposed to and Pubby wouldn't be there.


----------



## theclaud (13 Feb 2017)

User13710 said:


> Although, in my experience, it is possible for a few people on here to 'silence you by intimidation', unfortunately.


Yebbut the means are not the same. And I don't reckon they'd even try it so much if you were a bricklayer called Dave from Sunderland. Which absolutely isn't a criticism of your choice of username - it's just a plea for people to see what's happening in front of their eyes.


----------



## Pale Rider (13 Feb 2017)

theclaud said:


> Absolutely not. Just a lack of imagination and a fear of scrutiny.



Petrified me.

And you could show a bit of imagination instead of posting the same tired, old, snidey digs.

I posted a list of words.

Big deal.

Why the need to dig into the poster?

Haven't you read a word Shaun has written in this thread?


----------



## theclaud (13 Feb 2017)

Pale Rider said:


> Petrified me.
> 
> And you could show a bit of imagination instead of posting the same tired, old, snidey digs.
> 
> ...



You posted a list of words you want banned because their use disadvantages you or calls attention to your behaviour. What's the 'big deal' if people use the words they want, without your approval? Who exactly do you think you are?


----------



## Pale Rider (13 Feb 2017)

theclaud said:


> You posted a list of words you want banned because their use disadvantages you or calls attention to your behaviour.



Ignorant and worthless assumption.


----------



## theclaud (13 Feb 2017)

jonny jeez said:


> Ok, so we are at an impass.
> 
> What say we break the cycle, do somethin truly different and attempt to set a tone.
> 
> ...



I appreciate the conciliatory noises but as before I'm honestly at a loss as to what you want me (or whoever you think is part of whatever problem) to do that's 'truly different'. I post stuff about beer, stuff about bikes, and stuff about politics, including the politics of beer and bikes. I have quite a lot of unpopular opinions.


----------



## theclaud (13 Feb 2017)

Pale Rider said:


> Ignorant and worthless assumption.


So tell us what bothers you about the words.


----------



## Pale Rider (13 Feb 2017)

theclaud said:


> So tell us what bothers you about the words.



I can't add to my OP - bumptious waffle and drivel.

Anyway, is there a way to opt out of the thread about opting out of SC&P?


----------



## theclaud (13 Feb 2017)

Pale Rider said:


> I can't add to my OP - bumptious waffle and drivel.
> 
> Anyway, is there a way to opt out of the thread about opting out of SC&P?


Yeah you just close the door on the way out.


----------



## Dogtrousers (13 Feb 2017)

Pale Rider said:


> Anyway, is there a way to opt out of the thread about opting out of SC&P?


Thread tools -> Ignore Thread

As handy as ignore nodes.


----------



## Pat "5mph" (13 Feb 2017)

theclaud said:


> I hope you don't think it's unfair if I suggest that, although being a person of robust character and strong opinions, you typically avoid conflict. That's not wrong, but I would say that for a small woman it's more essential in the pub than it is on here, so it doesn't _need _to be that way. When people on here say 'you wouldn't say that to my face', they are just acknowledging that the form of interaction deprives them of their ability to silence you by intimidation. Good.


True this. I avoid confrontation on CC because I don't wanna be banned, and because of the time delay: I don't have access to the net at work, my working day can be 12/14 hours, by the time I can make a pertinent comment the discussion has moved on or has been locked.
I also feel that my life experiences are so different from most posters of the SC&P board that it's no point posting on certain topics.
In real life I am not easily silenced  



Pale Rider said:


> I posted a list of words.
> Big deal.


@Pale Rider words are a big deal, you can't ban words!
You don't like those words because you get slapped in the face with them?
Learn more powerful words!


----------



## John the Monkey (13 Feb 2017)

Inertia said:


> theclaud abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' she's out there.


----------



## Pale Rider (13 Feb 2017)

Pat "5mph" said:


> @Pale Rider words are a big deal, you can't ban words!
> You don't like those words because you get slapped in the face with them?
> Learn more powerful words!



I thought it obvious I wasn't being entirely serious, but perhaps it wasn't.

Although I don't know anyone who uses those words in real life, and if I did with my cycling group I would probably be banned for rubbish patter.


----------



## Crackle (13 Feb 2017)

You can't ban certain words and phrases, it would ruin my game of SCP bingo.


----------



## theclaud (13 Feb 2017)

Pat "5mph" said:


> True this. I avoid confrontation on CC because I don't wanna be banned, and because of the time delay: I don't have access to the net at work, my working day can be 12/14 hours, by the time I can make a pertinent comment the discussion has moved on or has been locked.
> *I also feel that my life experiences are so different from most posters of the SC&P board that it's no point posting on certain topics.*


I expect most people would find your viewpoint more, not less, interesting for that reason. I know what you mean about the time thing. If you're not around for the quick-fire response, the moment often passes...


----------



## Mugshot (13 Feb 2017)

theclaud said:


> I expect most people would find your viewpoint more, not less, interesting for that reason. I know what you mean about the time thing. If you're not around for the quick-fire response, the moment often passes...


Yeah, or someone else gets in first which is _really_ annoying!


----------



## theclaud (13 Feb 2017)

Mugshot said:


> Yeah, or someone else gets in first which is _really_ annoying!


Especially if the b*stards put it better than you would have done.


----------



## Tin Pot (13 Feb 2017)

@Shaun 

I was going to post something glib, but it's good that you're looking to sort out SCP. I've seen many forums struggle with this, it's a part of successful forums, and the only one successful had a clear mod policy that wasn't to be debated.

They ended up creating specific rules for that part of the forum, such as flagging a thread as a real discussion so mods would delete out all but formal discussion posts...But the simplest rule is to cut in on the ad hominem attacks as they drive the most argument.

Let the posters themselves deal with the rest of the fallactic arguments.


----------



## theclaud (13 Feb 2017)

Tin Pot said:


> Let the posters themselves deal with the rest of the fallactic arguments.


I never know how to deal with the fallactic.


----------



## Tin Pot (13 Feb 2017)

theclaud said:


> I never know how to deal with the fallactic.



Something to do with contraception I believe...


----------



## Pat "5mph" (13 Feb 2017)

Pale Rider said:


> Although I don't know anyone who uses those words in real life,


I don't either, heck, I work in catering, bain-marie is a big word for us


----------



## theclaud (13 Feb 2017)

Pat "5mph" said:


> I don't either, heck, I work in catering, bain-marie is a big word for us


It's all sous-vide round here these days, don't you know!


----------



## User32269 (13 Feb 2017)

Not long had a brisk 12 mile ride in the cold evening air. Feel good but think I have a build up of fallactic acid in the old legs.


----------



## User10119 (13 Feb 2017)

Pale Rider said:


> I thought it obvious I wasn't being entirely serious, but perhaps it wasn't.
> 
> Although I don't know anyone who uses those words in real life, and if I did with my cycling group I would probably be banned for rubbish patter.


Liar, liar, pants on fire! You have, I do believe, at least _met_ me. And I've used all of those, with the exception of straw man, out in the big blue room. In fact I used substantive just last week - and what's more it was in combination with a 'serious' and a 'significant'.


----------



## Pale Rider (13 Feb 2017)

Pat "5mph" said:


> I don't either, heck, I work in catering, bain-marie is a big word for us



Simple, short sentences are the most effective.

Any words with more than one syllable should be used with caution.

There's even a recognised formula - the fog index - which grades the readability of text.

Looks a bit complicated, but it's saying the same thing, short words and sentences are easier to read.

http://www.readabilityformulas.com/gunning-fog-readability-formula.php


----------



## Pat "5mph" (13 Feb 2017)

[QUOTE 4681239, member: 10119"]Liar, liar, pants on fire! You have, I do believe, at least _met_ me. And I've used all of those, with the exception of straw man, out in the big blue room. In fact I used substantive just last week - and what's more it was in combination with a 'serious' and a 'significant'.[/QUOTE]
Hehehe, we have established that @Pale Rider was not listening!


----------



## Pale Rider (13 Feb 2017)

[QUOTE 4681239, member: 10119"]Liar, liar, pants on fire! You have, I do believe, at least _met_ me. And I've used all of those, with the exception of straw man, out in the big blue room. In fact I used substantive just last week - and what's more it was in combination with a 'serious' and a 'significant'.[/QUOTE]

OK, OK, I don't know anyone apart from Crinkly Lion who uses those words.

Mind you, when we met it was dog o'clock at a LEL control, by which time I was close to talking jibberish and certainly in no position to analyse the language of others.


----------



## Pat "5mph" (13 Feb 2017)

Pale Rider said:


> Any words with more than one syllable should be used with caution.


Some languages have very few of those words 
Just jesting with you, but disagreeing a wee bit too


----------



## pubrunner (13 Feb 2017)

Crackle said:


> You can't ban certain words and phrases, it would ruin my game of SCP bingo.



Ever played 'Monkey' bingo  ?


----------



## jonny jeez (13 Feb 2017)

theclaud said:


> I don't mean it's an inauthentic persona - I just mean it's different to the one in the pub. Or in a letter. Or on the bike. Or on another bit of the internet. It's inevitable that it will be, because the form is different. You may as well make that work in for you rather than against. We are all, for example, the same size here. I hope you don't think it's unfair if I suggest that, although being a person of robust character and strong opinions, you typically avoid conflict. That's not wrong, but I would say that for a small woman it's more essential in the pub than it is on here, so it doesn't _need _to be that way. When people on here say 'you wouldn't say that to my face', they are just acknowledging that the form of interaction deprives them of their ability to silence you by intimidation. Good.
> 
> Oh and thanks for the kind words.


But physical intimidation is not the only form of intimidation. If its wrong to use your physical advantage to intimidate, how is it OK to use other features of ones form.

Education, Intellect, Experience, Upbringing, Profession, Social Position, Rank I've seen some "Big Men" brought to the edge by intimidation in these forms.

I detest bullying, in any form, whether its group or pack intimidation, arrogant intellectual intimidation, physical intimidation...they are all as shite as each other.

its right to argue in defence of those who are intimidated, in any form. Those who are truly smart don't seek to use their advantage, whatever it happens to be, to intimidate. 

Those who aren't that smart...just aren't that smart.


----------



## steve50 (13 Feb 2017)

To be honest, more recently I too have been just reading the posts on this forum rather than participating, it got to a stage where I simply gave up posting because of the snide comments and putdowns from a minority of members who (it would appear) sole purpose in life is to disrupt any reasonable discussion on any subject and turn it into an argument. SC&P didn't really interest me as I am not a great fan of political discussion. I now understand why politics and religion are two subjects that are banned on many internet forums after seeing the disruption these two subjects can cause. CC has been a great source of information for me and I have enjoyed the interaction with some of the members, alas the time has also come for me to step back from the forum, I might look in from time to time but for now, thanks to those of you who have been civilized and respectful.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (13 Feb 2017)

jonny jeez said:


> I've seen some "Big Men" brought to the edge by intimidation in these forms.


----------



## jay clock (13 Feb 2017)

I come to CC to talk about cycling and related areas. My vote would be to simply shut down all areas that were not fairly directly cycling linked

Never go in the non cycling areas but reading the 15 pages above, I can confirm I am glad


----------



## jonny jeez (13 Feb 2017)

Marmion said:


> View attachment 337566


so, despite your attempt to poke fun...which, by the way is in really poor taste and deserves reporting...you support intimidation of people by whatever means you feel fit...is that correct?


----------



## Shaun (14 Feb 2017)

It's been interesting, thanks, but I think this is a good point to take a time out.

I've still got some work to do before I enable the opt-in; I'll post to let everyone know when I do. 

Cheers,
Shaun


----------

