# Racing cyclist killed - A63



## ComedyPilot (30 Mar 2013)

http://www.thisishullandeastriding....tory-18563476-detail/story.html#axzz2P0iPf6fw

Words fail me - 


RIP to the rider


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## biggs682 (30 Mar 2013)

+ 1 rip the rider


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## mark st1 (30 Mar 2013)

Thats terrible  i was travelling down the A404 yesterday which is a mega busy 70 mph 2 lane dual carriageway linking the M4 to the M40 i was shocked to see a TT going on it. Not a good place to hold them imo.


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## Arch (30 Mar 2013)

I know drivers have a duty of care and all that, but if the A63 is anything like the A64 (and it sounds it from the description), then cycling on it is nuts, and organising a race on it, even more so.


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## compo (30 Mar 2013)

I do sometimes wonder as to the sense of holding TT's on major highways. I am not saying that we shouldn't be able to but in the real world it sometimes just seems to be inviting disaster. I often feel this when I see the lads on the A14. Even at 0700 on a Sunday morning it can be a bit busy at times.


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## numbnuts (30 Mar 2013)

Very sad condolances to family anf friends


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## GrasB (30 Mar 2013)

Very sad news & condolences to all.



compo said:


> I do sometimes wonder as to the sense of holding TT's on major highways. I am not saying that we shouldn't be able to but in the real world it sometimes just seems to be inviting disaster. I often feel this when I see the lads on the A14. Even at 0700 on a Sunday morning it can be a bit busy at times.


I can see the attraction of using roads like that for TTs, now more than ever. They have good quality surfaces, the surfaces are very clean, they far fewer obstructions & are a less likely to provide to external interference which has a significant impact on race result. These attractions are becoming even more favourable as back roads get minimal maintenance, usually a quick patch up, & thus are slowly deteriorating. The problem is that if something does go wrong on those roads the consequences are almost certainly going to be fatal.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (30 Mar 2013)

compo said:


> I do sometimes wonder as to the sense of holding TT's on major highways. I am not saying that we shouldn't be able to but in the real world it sometimes just seems to be inviting disaster. I often feel this when I see the lads on the A14. Even at 0700 on a Sunday morning it can be a bit busy at times.


We all take the same risk when we throw a leg over a bike. Dual carriageway or otherwise,being a race makes it no different from a commute/club ride or going to get milk.


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## GrasB (30 Mar 2013)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> We all take the same risk when we throw a leg over a bike. Dual carriageway or otherwise,being a race makes it no different from a commute/club ride or going to get milk.


However most cyclists wouldn't consider using the A14 for a commute or milk run. The A14 is a road I won't cycle on except for where there is a 'local traffic lane'. I do however use the A248 & A11 semi-regulally at times I know that they're quiet. However, I also run my rear light at full brightness with a hi-power strobe, not something you'll see on a race prepped TT bike.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (30 Mar 2013)

GrasB said:


> However most cyclists wouldn't consider using the A14 for a commute or milk run. The A14 is a road I won't cycle on except for where there is a 'local traffic lane'. I do however use the A248 & A11 semi-regulally at times I know that they're quiet. However, I also run my rear light at full brightness with a hi-power strobe, not something you'll see on a race prepped TT bike.


None of this post is relative to the point I was making.


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## GrasB (30 Mar 2013)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> None of this post is relative to the point I was making.


Except for the fact that the sole reason these riders are on these near-motorway roads is because they're in a TT & wouldn't go near them on a bike for any other reason than riding competitively.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (30 Mar 2013)

GrasB said:


> Except for the fact that the sole reason these riders are on these near-motorway roads is because they're in a TT & wouldn't go near them on a bike for any other reason than riding competitively.


You don't know that.


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## PaulB (30 Mar 2013)

I'm torn between both opposing views on this one. As a bit of a cyclist myself, I have seen four bike races on roads I wouldn't ever consider riding on, let alone racing. And one of the races I happened to pass must have been the one under discussion here as it was on that same road at the same time of year. Two seasoned cyclists, we both expressed surprise this race was sanctioned under such circumstances when we happened upon it. I have sympathy for both parties in this one. There's no winner here.


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## bianchi1 (30 Mar 2013)

These types of roads are ideal for setting personal best times. The drag a rider gets from being overtaken by lorries and cars at 60 mph + must be worth a minute over ten miles. 

I wouldn't go near this type of course, but if your personal definition of success is to do a sub 20 min 10 it's an option.


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## Rob3rt (30 Mar 2013)

The V718 is one of the fastest TT courses in the country and many events are held on it yearly without incident! It is just an unfortunate event that sadly claimed a life!

I will definitely be thinking of this rider and his family today when racing myself, it is a great shame.


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## davester65 (30 Mar 2013)

I drive that stretch of road daily in a HGV, most drivers who are local to the area know that it is used by cycling clubs as a TT event, both on a weekday evening and on a weekend, usually with ample signs and Marshals present on event days to make drivers aware.

Personally, i would not ride that stretch of road due to the high speeds of the traffic, national speed limits apply to it (70mph) but then i'm not a racer or a tt rider, not many riders use it as a commute route either.

A very sad occurrence, hopefully something that will not happen again. My condolences to the family and friends of the rider.


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## steve52 (30 Mar 2013)

i am a driver and a cyclist and a ped, i want to see a bigger duty or care place on vehical users. a simple list with the most vunerable at the bottom , the princible is simple the bigger and more powerfull you are the more responcible you have to be. if you are in charge of a machine that can kill you owe it to the rest of us? and i know there will be the odd case of a ped being killed by a child on an out of controll rollerskate, or some such, but we really must change our values!


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## dodgy (30 Mar 2013)

About time TT organisations unburdened themselves from the shackles of the past and put on some events on quiet(er) country lanes/roads. Yes I know they and the competitors want a good time, but they're racing against themselves and to a lesser degree the other riders, so if all the riders are on the same course, does it really have to be an out and back on a dual carriageway with roundabout drag strip?

RIP to the rider.


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## PK99 (30 Mar 2013)

dodgy said:


> About time TT organisations unburdened themselves from the shackles of the past and put on some events on quiet(er) country lanes/roads. .


 


our club runs an annual 25 mile 4-up time trial (one of the last...) on a quite country circuit


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## fossyant (30 Mar 2013)

Not TT'ed on that course but have ridden a TTT on the A1. I've also done a number of TTs on D courses which use some dual carriageway A55 near Chester and Rainford bypass but they are quiet.

Even slower courses have their dangers, many of the Cheshire ones are quite technical and on fast single carriageway roads. Most competitors do run bright rear lights these days as an added safety measure.

Terrible shame, but these accidents are very rare.


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## Brandane (30 Mar 2013)

steve52 said:


> i am a driver and a cyclist and a ped, i want to see a bigger duty or care place on vehical users. a simple list with the most vunerable at the bottom , the princible is simple the bigger and more powerfull you are the more responcible you have to be. if you are in charge of a machine that can kill you owe it to the rest of us?


 
I was under the impression that there already IS a bigger duty of care in place for drivers of larger vehicles. As an HGV licence holder, I know that there is very much a bigger duty of care when I am driving an artic, in comparison to when I am driving a car, riding a motorbike, or cycling.

We don't know any details of what happened to cause this particular accident, so it would be wrong to speculate and automatically blame the driver involved. I know that the chances are stacked in favour of it being the drivers fault, but there is always the off-chance that something happened to cause the accident which was no fault of the driver.

RIP the cyclist involved.


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## Mr Bunbury (30 Mar 2013)

I was talking to an organiser last night, he said that he thinks that's the first death on the V718 in the 20 years it's existed. As has been stated, it's an extremely popular course, with events maybe every week or two from now until September, 120-150 entrants per event. That's a huge volume of riders who have safely raced there.



Arch said:


> I know drivers have a duty of care and all that, but if the A63 is anything like the A64 (and it sounds it from the description), then cycling on it is nuts, and organising a race on it, even more so.


 
Which bit of the A64? It's not as bad as the York to Leeds bit IMO.



GrasB said:


> However, I also run my rear light at full brightness with a hi-power strobe, not something you'll see on a race prepped TT bike.


 
You're talking rubbish. Bright rear lights are extremely popular in TTing. The current favourite is the Exposure Flare, then probably the Lezyne Micro Drive. Browse timetriallingforum.co.uk to see discussion of rear lights passim.


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## ComedyPilot (30 Mar 2013)

How many people commenting that they wouldn't ride on that road (dual carriageway) would ride on a single carriageway?


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## dodgy (30 Mar 2013)

fossyant said:


> Terrible shame, but these accidents are very rare.


 
Don't know the exact numbers, but there's too many of them. If you look at the population of cyclists, then look at the population of cyclists who TT, it's a reasonaly niche activity. But there's been a few TT related deaths over the last few years. One sticks out is the army Major Gareth Evans (on the A1), I personally know a girl who was badly injured in a TT on a dual carriageway.

I'm actually quite millitant of our rights to ride wherever it is legal, but there's something about TTing on busy dual carriageways that doesn't sit right with me.


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## dodgy (30 Mar 2013)

PK99 said:


> our club runs an annual 25 mile 4-up time trial (one of the last...) on a quite country circuit


 
Of course, there are lots of TTs that are *not* on dual carriageways.


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## ComedyPilot (30 Mar 2013)

The bit that doesn't sit right with me is people's attitude to cycling / TT's on dual carriageways.

A dual carriageway by the very virtue of it's name tells me there's NO oncoming traffic AND a WHOLE LANE to move over into to overtake.

Couple that with the legally-required signage to run such an event, and there's ZERO reason IMO for a vehicle driver to not be aware of the presence of cyclists, and ABSOLUTELY ZERO reason to hit and kill one.

Just where the F**K are these people looking when they're driving!!!!!!!


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## Rob3rt (30 Mar 2013)

Any time you increase the volume of cyclists on a stretch of road for a period of time, you increase the risk of a cyclist being involved in an incident during that period of time. It is a given.

Also, it is not certain who, if anyone was at fault in this instance.


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## Brandane (30 Mar 2013)

ComedyPilot said:


> The bit that doesn't sit right with me is people's attitude to cycling / TT's on dual carriageways.
> 
> A dual carriageway by the very virtue of it's name tells me there's NO oncoming traffic AND a WHOLE LANE to move over into to overtake.


 Not necessarily. You can have dual carriageways with only one lane of traffic running in each direction. Dual carriageway just means that opposing flows of traffic are separated by a physical barrier of some type.


ComedyPilot said:


> Couple that with the legally-required signage to run such an event, and there's ZERO reason IMO for a vehicle driver to not be aware of the presence of cyclists, and ABSOLUTELY ZERO reason to hit and kill one.
> 
> Just where the F**K are these people looking when they're driving!!!!!!!


 
Well it seems like you've pretty much decided that this unfortunate incident was the drivers fault due to his lack of observation. Chances are you are correct, but like I said in a previous post, we do not know the facts and it is wrong to speculate. There could be any number of reasons why the bike and caravan came together, and some of those possibilities are that the driver was not at fault.


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## dodgy (30 Mar 2013)

ComedyPilot said:


> The bit that doesn't sit right with me is people's attitude to cycling / TT's on dual carriageways.
> 
> A dual carriageway by the very virtue of it's name tells me there's NO oncoming traffic AND a WHOLE LANE to move over into to overtake.
> 
> ...


 
I hear you. This is the problem, a driver in a modern car, all the technology - air con, lane assist, cruise control. He's sat there at 70, 80mph with CC on, listening to the stereo, thinking about the pub tonight. Perhaps he sees the cyclist, maybe he doesn't, maybe he'll slow and indicate past, or maybe he'll think "I can squeeze past without going into lane 2 - then I don't have to hold up the guy behind me in lane 2"......


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## davester65 (30 Mar 2013)

ComedyPilot said:


> How many people commenting that they wouldn't ride on that road (dual carriageway) would ride on a single carriageway?


 
Me, i ride all over the East Riding of Yorkshire on single carriage A roads, B roads and country lanes.
That particular piece of road is the major route in and out of Hull, its a narrow dual carriageway with lots of slip roads and garages and a VERY large amount of HGV traffic...ie plenty of hazards....as well as plenty of potholes.....and having very detailed knowledge and experience of it......i have to drive it daily...i would never ride it.

Having said that, with the recent upsurge in the popularity of our sport, maybe it's time for the organisers to start lobbying the local councils and police for better safety procedures during the larger events, (according to the local press this was a national/elite event, at least 1 Team GB rider was scheduled to compete), also someone on here said it's a very fast course because of the drafting, so i guess the riders must weigh up the risk factors versus the time gains before entering.


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## Arch (30 Mar 2013)

ComedyPilot said:


> The bit that doesn't sit right with me is people's attitude to cycling / TT's on dual carriageways.
> 
> A dual carriageway by the very virtue of it's name tells me there's NO oncoming traffic AND a WHOLE LANE to move over into to overtake.
> 
> ...


 
Yeah, but there's no reason for drivers to run into the back of each other tailgating on motorways, or to hit anyone or anything clearly visible beyond their stopping distance, but it happens. I think many drivers assume that on a dual carriageway, they should be able to make their way at the speed they choose, unhindered by technicalities like the Highway Code*. Sad but true. And at those speeds, a collision is going to be fatal. 

*Of course, some think this no matter what the road...


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## Rob3rt (30 Mar 2013)

davester65 said:


> Me, i ride all over the East Riding of Yorkshire on single carriage A roads, B roads and country lanes.
> That particular piece of road is the major route in and out of Hull, its a narrow dual carriageway with lots of slip roads and garages and a VERY large amount of HGV traffic...ie plenty of hazards....as well as plenty of potholes.....and having very detailed knowledge and experience of it......i have to drive it daily...i would never ride it.
> 
> Having said that, with the recent upsurge in the popularity of our sport, maybe it's time for the organisers to start lobbying the local councils and police for better safety procedures during the larger events, (according to the local press this was a national/elite event, at least 1 Team GB rider was scheduled to compete), also someone on here said it's a very fast course because of the drafting, so i guess the riders must weigh up the risk factors versus the time gains before entering.


 
The event was not a national/elite event as such to my knowledge, it was an open event under the CTT. Open TT's accept only the fastest riders, once they fill all the spots, slowest riders are rejected (this is the case for all open events unless otherwise stated), being that this event was on a fast course, it of course attracts a lot of fast riders, so the field will naturally be made up of strong competitors. I think one of my club mates may have been racing the event in question, I have not looked at the start sheet though so can not be certain.

As for Joanna Rowsell riding the event means nothing for its status really, she is racing an event I will be racing next weekend, the current Paralympic World Champion was racing the same event I raced today, they are just people wanting to race and they sign up like everyone else! I am middle of the road at best, so certainly not riding in elite events.

It is a fast course, but not because of drafting, you don't draft in a TT. In fact when you are riding fast in an aero tuck, close passing vehicles is quite unerving and pushes you sideways, so you would be more likely to lose time due to being cautious/nervous/tense than you would gain from a bit of a momentary draft.


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## craigwend (30 Mar 2013)

That route (form memory) has been a long established TT route 30 years+ ?

saying that I woud not ride it by choice, like riding on a motorway ...

no details as such, but condolences......


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## Night Train (30 Mar 2013)

My issue with this, and I am sorry a person has been killed, is competing on an open public road. Any competitive race, time trial, or other speed/time event by cars, motorbikes, cyclists, or pedestrians held on the public road should be on a closed road.
That way competitors can concentrate on the event and non competitors can be kept apart from them for everyone's safety.

A cyclist, or any other road user, out on a ride can choose whether or not they ride a particular stretch of road when they get to it, and how they ride it, or avoid it. The rider may decide to take the adjoining cycle path, or a longer and quieter route, or to sit out heavy traffic in a cafe. In a competitive event that choice is partly removed.

I have come across a number of competitive cycling events where the riders emerge from minor roads, join roundabouts and cross junctions without stopping, looking, or following any of the highway code, expecting other road users to 'mind read' their intentions.
There may be signs saying that an event is taking place, but I have rarely seen a marshal warning other traffic to stop to let the competitors though.


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## fossyant (30 Mar 2013)

Urban commuting is a damn sight more dangerous than TTs on dual carriageways.


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## Rob3rt (30 Mar 2013)

Quick question, why do people with no idea about, nor indeed any interest in racing insist on commenting about racing and racing related matters?

Furthermore, why on earth is this thread in the cafe?


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## Arch (30 Mar 2013)

Rob3rt said:


> Quick question, why do people with no idea about, nor indeed any interest in racing insist on commenting about racing and racing related matters?
> 
> Furthermore, why on earth is this thread in the cafe?


 
The thread is about someone who happened to be racing, on a public road. If you'd rather keep your little racing clique in another section, ask for it to be moved.


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## Mr Bunbury (30 Mar 2013)

The Good Friday 10 on the V718 is an ordinary open event, but has built up a big reputation over the past few years as _the_ early season 10 to do. Jo Rowsell was riding, plus at least four national champions that I can remember in the men's event (Michael Hutchinson, Matt Bottrill, Jeff Jones, Nik Bowdler). As has been said, you qualify for an open TT by riding a fast enough qualifying time. This year's event closed on a 22.40, which is slower than the past few years, probably because Easter is early and the weather has been rubbish. Last year it closed on 21.30 or something like that - it's a prestigious event.



Night Train said:


> I have come across a number of competitive cycling events where the riders emerge from minor roads, join roundabouts and cross junctions without stopping, looking, or following any of the highway code, expecting other road users to 'mind read' their intentions.
> There may be signs saying that an event is taking place, but I have rarely seen a marshal warning other traffic to stop to let the competitors though.


 
This is precisely the reason why TTing on DCs isn't as bad as it sounds: you don't have the possibility for people to take wide corners out of T junctions, cut across the white line at a turn at the bottom of a hill etc. Someone recently died in a road race in that sort of situation (note that I don't know the precise details). 

The word is that the caravan had a blowout while passing the rider.


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## Brandane (30 Mar 2013)

Rob3rt said:


> Quick question, why do people with no idea about, nor indeed any interest in racing insist on commenting about racing and racing related matters?
> 
> Furthermore, why on earth is this thread in the cafe?


 
I have absolutely no interest in racing or racing related matters; but I do see this matter as being extremely relevant to cycling in general. This was, first and foremost, a guy out on his bike on the public highway who was involved in a collision with a caravan and tragically died as a result. It should be of interest to ALL cyclists who share road space with other vehicles; as lessons should be learnt from it. This can only be done however, once the full circumstances of the collision are known.


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## Night Train (30 Mar 2013)

Mr Bunbury said:


> This is precisely the reason why TTing on DCs isn't as bad as it sounds: you don't have the possibility for people to take wide corners out of T junctions, cut across the white line at a turn at the bottom of a hill etc. Someone recently died in a road race in that sort of situation (note that I don't know the precise details).
> 
> The word is that the caravan had a blowout while passing the rider.


This is why I think the road should be closed to other traffic, if not for the whole duration of the event then at least while the event is on a section of road.
The things I saw are the things you say wouldn't happen. Surely it would be better for a marshal to stop the traffic at the junction, or for whole sections of a road, so that competitors can take part safely.
It happens for non competitive events, like sky rides, but not when riders are competing.

I'd rather the road was closed, I might fancy having a go myself then.


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## Rob3rt (30 Mar 2013)

Night Train said:


> This is why I think the road should be closed to other traffic, if not for the whole duration of the event then at least while the event is on a section of road.
> The things I saw are the things you say wouldn't happen. Surely it would be better for a marshal to stop the traffic at the junction, or for whole sections of a road, so that competitors can take part safely.
> It happens for non competitive events, like sky rides, but not when riders are competing.
> 
> I'd rather the road was closed, I might fancy having a go myself then.


 
Massive amounts of time and effort have gone into trying to secure such powers for marshals.

http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/accreditedmarshal


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## Mr Bunbury (30 Mar 2013)

Night Train said:


> The things I saw are the things you say wouldn't happen.


"DC" = Dual Carriageway

The things I said cannot possibly happen on a dual carriageway because the riders are going out and back on a straight, flat piece of road with good sight lines. That was the point of my post: people talk up the dangers of racing on DCs but they forget that racing on SCs and minor roads has a whole different set of dangers, such as cutting corners at the bottom of hills etc.


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## davester65 (30 Mar 2013)

Rob3rt said:


> Quick question, why do people with no idea about, nor indeed any interest in racing insist on commenting about racing and racing related matters?
> 
> Furthermore, why on earth is this thread in the cafe?


 
It's here because the OP is about one of our fellow riders losing their life. 

Why do people like you assume that, just because we don't race or TT, we have no interest or knowledge about the sport?


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## Noodley (30 Mar 2013)

Maybe people who have never raced and know bugger all about it should stick to commenting on tea and cake?


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## Rob3rt (30 Mar 2013)

davester65 said:


> It's here because the OP is about one of our fellow riders losing their life.
> 
> *Why do people like you assume that, just because we don't race or TT, we have no interest or knowledge about the sport?*


 
You have misunderstood my point. Or misread it. I asked, why do people feel the need to comment on something they know nothing about, nor have any interest in?

There is a difference between expressing condolences for a fellow cyclist (I would not have commented if this was the case) and playing the blame game (as is typically the 1st reaction of many on CC) and/or going about how racing should be organised and run.

i.e. If you don't know anything about racing, or have no interest in it, why not just express your condolences and move on without going off on one about how things should be done and who is to blame etc.


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## Rob3rt (30 Mar 2013)

Road races will in some cases have a lead car and a broom wagon bringing up the rear.


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## Mr Bunbury (30 Mar 2013)

This was a time trial, riders set off at minute intervals. Chris was number 79, meaning he set off at 10.19am as the race started at 9am. There were riders numbered up to 150, so when Chris was getting hit, the last rider was probably still pumping up their tyres in the HQ. I was riding to the start, just a couple of miles away


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## davester65 (30 Mar 2013)

@ Rob3rt...

Which is why i chose to ignore the 'blame game' comments, maybe you should too? As for organisation of these events, i stand by my post, as a sport we should be lobbying for better safety procedures and policing from local authorities.....(take a look at how your local marathon/half marathon is organised and policed as an amateur event)


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## Rob3rt (30 Mar 2013)

davester65 said:


> Which is why i chose to ignore the 'blame game' comments, maybe you should too? As for organisation of these events, i stand by my post, *as a sport we should be lobbying for better safety procedures and policing from local authorities.....*(*take a look at how your local marathon/half marathon is organised and policed as an amateur event*)


 
Clubs up and down the country are doing exactly that and have been doing it for decades, furthermore the new BC Accredited Marshall scheme I linked to previously is now rolling out. This is what is slightly annoying, people state "..... should be doing this", whilst being completely unaware of the immense efforts and time people have spent, and are indeed still spending doing exactly that.

A local marathon or half marathon is not a good comparison as it doesn't happen every week (there will be at least 1 TT per week in each district, usually several). There is also a difference between large running events and many smaller road running events too, many of these smaller events are not on closed roads etc either. BTW, I organise running races so am familiar with how little involvement local authorities have with smaller low-key events!


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## Noodley (30 Mar 2013)

Cyclists die. It's a fact. That some cyclists on this thread are trying to make a point that other cyclists are in some way to blame just because they are taking part in the form of cycling which they prefer is very sad. You really need to grow the feck up. And stop being an arse.


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## davester65 (30 Mar 2013)

Noodley said:


> Cyclists die. It's a fact. That some cyclists on this thread are trying to make a point that other cyclists are in some way to blame just because they are taking part in the form of cycling which they prefer is very sad. You really need to grow the feck up. And stop being an arse.


 
agreed, let's stop the thread hijack and go back to the OP

R.I.P. fellow cyclist.


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## Noodley (30 Mar 2013)

User13710 said:


> I understand what you're saying Noodley, but aren't people trying to find ways that the form of cycling they prefer can be made safer? Cyclists dying might be a fact, but fewer cyclists dying could be an aspiration? Or are you saying anyone who thinks that is an arse?


 
I dinnae think there is much of "finding a safer way". What I do see is other cyclists being prejudiced. Which is sad. I could just as easily die on a track as on a TT or on a commute or riding over a mountain track.


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## ComedyPilot (31 Mar 2013)

Brandane said:


> *Not necessarily.* You can have dual carriageways with only one lane of traffic running in each direction. Dual carriageway just means that opposing flows of traffic are separated by a physical barrier of some type.


 
Granted, but in this case the A63 is just such a dual carriageway


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## screenman (31 Mar 2013)

I have raced on the V718 many times even done 2 ups on it, each time i have done so feeling as safe if not safer than I have in some single carriageway races.

Certainly my thoughts this morning are for the riders family and friends. The organisers also will be going through a very traumatic time, wondering what more they could have done.


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## Arch (31 Mar 2013)

Mr Bunbury said:


> "DC" = Dual Carriageway
> 
> The things I said cannot possibly happen on a dual carriageway because the riders are going out and back on a straight, flat piece of road with good sight lines. That was the point of my post: people talk up the dangers of racing on DCs but they forget that racing on SCs and minor roads has a whole different set of dangers, such as cutting corners at the bottom of hills etc.


 

I don't know anything about TTing. so, How do riders start off? Actually on the DC? Or feeding in from the side? Either way seems to have potential for danger to me.

Seems to me that racing in any form implies that competitors' prime consideration is going as fast as possible, potentially over caution. We'd condemn drivers for racing on an open road, even if they were racing only up to the speed limit.


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## Crankarm (31 Mar 2013)

Gruesome, killed by a 4x4 pulling a caravan. Was the 4x4 an X5 by any chance? Caravans should be banned.
RIP.


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## Mr Bunbury (31 Mar 2013)

Arch said:


> I don't know anything about TTing. so, How do riders start off? Actually on the DC? Or feeding in from the side? Either way seems to have potential for danger to me.
> 
> Seems to me that racing in any form implies that competitors' prime consideration is going as fast as possible, potentially over caution. We'd condemn drivers for racing on an open road, even if they were racing only up to the speed limit.


 
The course map is here: V718 - mapmyride. It starts just off the DC and merges onto it.

As you admit that you don't know anything about TTing, it would be nice of you not to pass comment based on your knowledge of our state of mind. In this post we have "competitors' prime consideration is going as fast as possible, potentially over caution" - do you think that testers don't care whether we live or die? Think about that for a second, there's an obvious answer.

Then we have your first post:



Arch said:


> I know drivers have a duty of care and all that, but if the A63 is anything like the A64 (and it sounds it from the description), then cycling on it is nuts, and organising a race on it, even more so.


 
You've not raced, not organised a race, know nothing about safety precautions (signage, traffic counts, rear lights, dayglo overshoes yadda yadda yadda) and you don't even know the road, yet you are prepared to declare that we are "nuts" - and that's even despite the evidence of 20+ years of regular safe racing on the course. Gee, thanks. Victim blaming, much?

This is not particularly aimed at you, it's aimed at all the people who choose to judge testers out of ignorance.


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## Ian H (31 Mar 2013)

Arch said:


> I don't know anything about TTing. so, How do riders start off? Actually on the DC? Or feeding in from the side? Either way seems to have potential for danger to me.
> 
> Seems to me that racing in any form implies that competitors' prime consideration is going as fast as possible, potentially over caution. We'd condemn drivers for racing on an open road, even if they were racing only up to the speed limit.


Cycle competitions on public highways are covered by specific legislation dealing with both time trials and 'mass start' road racing.


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## Soltydog (31 Mar 2013)

ComedyPilot said:


> The bit that doesn't sit right with me is people's attitude to cycling / TT's on dual carriageways.
> 
> A dual carriageway by the very virtue of it's name tells me there's NO oncoming traffic AND a WHOLE LANE to move over into to overtake.
> 
> ...


 
RIP & thoughts with family & friends of the unfortunate cyclist.
I drove along the A63 yesterday whilst the TT was underway, not long before the incident. Driving out of Hull (westbound) I saw no signage whatsoever that there was a cycling event underway. I'm not saying it wasnt there, but I didnt see it, when I saw the first cyclist, I though he's a brave soul cycling on here, but guessed it was a TT when there were more riders along the way.I passed using the outside lane, but many other motorists didnt


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## GrasB (2 Apr 2013)

Mr Bunbury said:


> You're talking rubbish. Bright rear lights are extremely popular in TTing. The current favourite is the Exposure Flare, then probably the Lezyne Micro Drive. Browse timetriallingforum.co.uk to see discussion of rear lights passim.


Not in my experience. Very few riders seem to run rear lights on the TTs I've been to. Yes, those who have rear lights have good ones. However, the vast majority of the field don't run a rear light.


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## Pedrosanchezo (2 Apr 2013)

Horrible news.

Both sides are valid imo.

TT'ing, or general riding, on DC's can be safer than SC and B roads. It all depends on the road in question. If anyone says that ALL DC's are unsafe then i will disagree. If anyone says ALL DC's are just as safe as any other roads then i will disagree. A few have mentioned that TT'ing or racing on back roads can be more dangerous as riders can cut corners or take junctions wide. Are we not meant to stop a junctions and ride as safe as we can? Does that not apply to racing? Does safety come second to a decent time?

You could argue that a rider would have to be completely aware of their surroundings on such roads and be 100% tuned in to what's is going on around them. You could then also argue that a rider who is trying to set a PB and is bursting a gut in an aero tuck may not have their full attention on traffic approaching from the rear. They are in essence entrusting their lives with every driver that passes. The point being that it is a choice for the individual to decide. Also, depending on your TT helmet, you may not be hearing as well as you could either. This goes for ALL roads.

The other point that we seem to miss is how it will affect the driver. If it was an accident with no blame then the driver has had a life changing experience that may greatly affect them. Who knows. This is not a "car driver", this is a person.

For now all we know is that it was an official, legal event. A cyclist died in a collision with a vehicle and it is a tragedy!

RIP


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## Soltydog (2 Apr 2013)

An update on this sad story, which people slating the car driving might not want to hear


> A police spokesman said: "The collision involved the cyclist and a Landrover Freelander that was towing a white Sterling Eccles touring caravan. At the time of the collision it is believed the Landrover and caravan were stationary in lane one of the A63 and the cyclist rode into the rear of the caravan."


 
Maybe we can refrain from hammering motorists until all the facts are available in future? I know more often than not its the motorist at fault & they get minimal punishments, but it would appear not in this case.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (2 Apr 2013)

Why would you be stationary in lane 1 of a dual carriageway?


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## Rob3rt (2 Apr 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> Horrible news.
> 
> Both sides are valid imo.
> 
> ...


 
CTT start sheets always include a safety warning that riders should adhere to the rules of the road, give way to traffic already on roundabouts etc etc, warns you to get off of your tribars at certain points (even warns of DQ and further repercussions if you are spotted doing otherwise).

Generally at junctions a marshal will keep an eye on traffic and signal you as you approach to indicate if it is clear for you to nail it through the bend, of course it is your duty to have a look and decide for yourself whether this is the case.



T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Why would you be stationary in lane 1 of a dual carriageway?


 
I heard rumblings of something to do with a tyre blowout, so maybe (speculation) the vehicle or caravan had a blowout and was forced to stop.


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## HLaB (2 Apr 2013)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Why would you be stationary in lane 1 of a dual carriageway?


Just speculating but they saw an event and stopped out of courtesy or were instructed to by a marshal.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (2 Apr 2013)

HLaB said:


> Just speculating but they saw an event and stopped out of courtesy or were instructed to by a marshal.


I have a background in marshalling (not cycling) only once did I have PSNI permission to stop traffic. Unfortunately fatal for the motorcyclist in question. Until that point I had no legal right or ability to influence traffic flow along the road.



Rob3rt said:


> I heard rumblings of something to do with a tyre blowout, so maybe (speculation) the vehicle or caravan had a blowout and was forced to stop.


As did I. Speculation seems to be rife though, haven't heard of any witnesses or other suggestion that a blow-out was the cause/reason to stop. I'm not saying it isn't plausible of course.


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## Mr Bunbury (2 Apr 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> Horrible news.
> A few have mentioned that TT'ing or racing on back roads can be more dangerous as riders can cut corners or take junctions wide. Are we not meant to stop a junctions and ride as safe as we can? Does that not apply to racing? Does safety come second to a decent time?


 
Of course we're meant to ride safely and of course the rules apply to everyone, testers included, absolutely. However, do you think that always happens? You even get people riding wide in sportives, and they're not even officially competitive! The point about DCs is that there's no possibility for it to happen. 

A63 cyclist rode into the back of caravan, police say

The caravan presumably stopped because it had the blowout. The question is whether it stopped in good time but the cyclist was riding head down - which is illegal, but he won't be the first to die that way - or whether it had the blowout as it was passing him, stopped suddenly and he couldn't help going into the back of it. Who knows.


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## HLaB (2 Apr 2013)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> I have a background in marshalling (not cycling) only once did I have PSNI permission to stop traffic. Unfortunately fatal for the motorcyclist in question. Until that point I had no legal right or ability to influence traffic flow along the road.


Yeah, Ive marshalled at few cycling events too and I've no right to actually stop traffic but on a few TT's I've ridden marshal's have actually stopped traffic (or intimated to and concientous cars have) I wouldn't rely on it though .


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## 400bhp (2 Apr 2013)

There's been a few instances recently of cyclists dying on DC's and a couple of deaths/bad injuries whilst competing.

RIP to the cyclist.

In my mind, it's only a matter of time before pressure is put on competition events to be run on closed roads.

I guess it's a consequence of cycling's popularity.


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## 400bhp (2 Apr 2013)

Mr Bunbury said:


> Of course we're meant to ride safely and of course the rules apply to everyone, testers included, absolutely. However, do you think that always happens? You even get people riding wide in sportives, and they're not even officially competitive! The point about DCs is that there's no possibility for it to happen.
> 
> A63 cyclist rode into the back of caravan, police say
> 
> The caravan presumably stopped because it had the blowout. The question is whether it stopped in good time but the cyclist was riding head down - which is illegal, but he won't be the first to die that way - or whether it had the blowout as it was passing him, stopped suddenly and he couldn't help going into the back of it. Who knows.


 
Guy near us went into the back of a car whilst TT'ing. His front brake didn't work or was non existent. Couple of bods here know the story better than me.


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## PK99 (2 Apr 2013)

ComedyPilot said:


> The bit that doesn't sit right with me is people's attitude to cycling / TT's on dual carriageways.
> 
> A dual carriageway by the very virtue of it's name tells me there's NO oncoming traffic AND a WHOLE LANE to move over into to overtake.
> 
> ...


 
Would you care to modify your comments? It would appear that in this case the cyclist was (literally) not looking where he was going.

As an aside, driving through Merton this morning, I followed a cyclist who was drafting a large van like lorry at 25mph (as shown on my Speedo) with his front wheel tucked under the tail of the van. An emergency stop by the van and he could easily have been decapitated. Sometime accidents *are* down to the cyclist.


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## Boris Bajic (2 Apr 2013)

Bitter, bitter news item. Condolences to family, friends and those who loved the rider.

These things are very rare and I expect them to remain so.

I am not a racer, although I've done the odd TT to keep my son company and have trained a lot with him on the road. I've spent a LOT of time waiting and shuffling my feet and fussing about silly things while a TT is going on. It is natural to worry and fret.

One thing that does sometimes spook me is what can happen occasionally to the bonce of a racer. A corner may be shaved; a sharp bend taken slightly too fast in the wet; the degree of risk on a descent misjudged... When the clock is ticking and the heart is beating and there is a competitor bearing down on you who started 60 seconds after you, it's easy to get a little of the red mist.

Even on 'competitive' training rides with my boy, I've noticed that I can just start to have slightly wobbly judgement if he's gaining on me. 

I don't condemn racing on the highway. Quite the contrary; I actively support it and am delighted that one of my offspring does it.

But I do get a little frisson of angst sometimes when I'm waiting for him near the finish of a wet, evening, midweek TT on a fast or twisty road. One part of my brain says that racing on the highway is twelve different flavours of barmy. Motorists are prosecuted for it.

The boy's first race this year is in a few days. As above, condolences to all who loved the rider and sympathy to all who were involved in the accident.


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## davester65 (2 Apr 2013)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Why would you be stationary in lane 1 of a dual carriageway?


 
I drove by the scene about an hour and a half after the accident, the accident investigation team were there doing their thing, and i can confirm the other posts about a flat tyre, the caravan did have a flat offside tyre.


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