# need help standing and pedalling



## JasonHolder (3 May 2014)

Hi guys.
Need help please.
Have a ride friend who pedals like a child when stood up. Imagine a half squat on a bike and pedalling perfrctly still body and bike locked out. No rythym or swing so to speak.

I introduced some drills slowly on a ride, one pedal at bottom coasting and leaning bike opposite. And then at a rolling speed pedal half round and change legs to get used to rolling the bike and the body Adding in afull revolution, whilst rolling the bike gently side to side on pedalling.

It works and then it gets forgotten.
Anyone have any tips to get her standing and putting power down smoothly whilst rolling the bike a tad like normal.
Much appreciated.


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## vickster (3 May 2014)

Does it matter?


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## morrisman (3 May 2014)

Does the rolling thing help climbing? Never done it myself but I usually climb seated.


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## User6179 (3 May 2014)

You could try clipping her round the ear if she disnie do what you tell her


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## cyberknight (3 May 2014)

morrisman said:


> Does the rolling thing help climbing? Never done it myself but I usually climb seated.


Once you overcome the q factor - BB width pretty much any more swinging side to side is a waste


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## JasonHolder (3 May 2014)

Yes morrisman. Its basically a touch more leverage but more rythym really.


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## Pale Rider (3 May 2014)

Rolling the bike from side to side looks like wasted energy to me, not that I'm an expert.

I've seen pros who roll and some who don't.

Could be it makes little difference and it's more a matter of how you instinctively balance the bike while pedalling standing up.


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## JasonHolder (3 May 2014)

Cheers cyberknight. What is more inefficient is pedalling in a half squat like a 4 year old does. Make sense?


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## JasonHolder (3 May 2014)

Yes maybe its balance


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## JasonHolder (3 May 2014)

Found a better way of describing it. Imagine the pose a second before you Bunny hop. That is it


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## screenman (3 May 2014)

The idea is to send the bike forward, anything else is wasted energy.


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## JasonHolder (3 May 2014)

You haven't understood how the person is standing and pedalling. Its a problem


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## cyberknight (3 May 2014)

Pale Rider said:


> Rolling the bike from side to side looks like wasted energy to me, not that I'm an expert.
> 
> I've seen pros who roll and some who don't.
> 
> Could be it makes little difference and it's more a matter of how you instinctively balance the bike while pedalling standing up.


Indeed , as long as it works for you . I used to climb like cadel evans as i liked to use brute force .





Lately i have been trying it ala contador




Both work , it depends on what your body likes to do as long as your efficient who cares unless your mate is in a really silly position !


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## Gravity Aided (3 May 2014)

A sort of BMX stance, where the saddle is far too low?


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## JasonHolder (3 May 2014)

I'll make a video and post it here. Give me 20


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## Shut Up Legs (4 May 2014)

cyberknight said:


>


A bit off topic I know, but that's a great photo!  It sums up the effort involved really well.


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## cyberknight (4 May 2014)

victor said:


> A bit off topic I know, but that's a great photo!  It sums up the effort involved really well.


Not really off topic as cadel rides crouched , i was wondering if the OP meant like that ?


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## MikeG (4 May 2014)

Do it the quick way instead: stay sitting down.


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## Julia9054 (4 May 2014)

Sounds like she is not comfortable pedalling standing. She probably feels she has to because you do. You sound like a confident guy with a well developed technique which works for you. 
Personally, I remain seated. Shift centre of gravity forward so more energy goes downward into the pedal stroke. Concentrate on keeping shoulders absolutely still without gripping too hard and pulling. Drop heels so energy is not absorbed by ankle joint. (Not sure about this last one but someone advised so I'm trying it) Get into a rhythm.
5 points of contact with bike means no energy wasted on balance and control.
This is what works for me. It is good to try someone else's technique but if she finds it difficult, she should try something else.
My riding partner stands. He beats me on short steep hills. I often beat him on long, grim drags.


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## cyberknight (4 May 2014)

Julia9054 said:


> This is what works for me. It is good to try someone else's technique but if she finds it difficult, she should try something else.
> My riding partner stands. He beats me on short steep hills. I often beat him on long, grim drags.


Thats what i do , on short steep stuff i am quicker standing but on a long drag of more than say 1/4 mile i would sit and spin unless of course i was after a strava segment and was not worried about how out of breath i was at the top


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## RWright (4 May 2014)

The Manx Missile stands and looks very crouched down, works pretty well for him.


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## JasonHolder (4 May 2014)

Yes but he rolls the bike a tad left and right!


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## RWright (4 May 2014)

I think her putting down more power and improving her riding style may come with more experience and confidence. If she doesn't have a lot of saddle time let her develop her muscles and sense of balance on the bike by riding more and increasing her ability. After a while you can use the "LAST ONE TO THE TOP OF THE HILL IS A ROTTEN EGG!" method and see how development is coming along.


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## Donger (4 May 2014)

Julia9054 said:


> 5 points of contact with bike means no energy wasted on balance and control.
> This is what works for me. It is good to try someone else's technique but if she finds it difficult, she should try something else.
> My riding partner stands. He beats me on short steep hills. I often beat him on long, grim drags.


 Agree 100% Don't think you should prescribe a riding style for someone else. I very rarely stand .... rounding hairpins or crossing cattle grids excepted. My main problem when trying it out was that I didn't know what I was doing with the gears. I've since learned that, at the point of wanting to stand on a hill, you really need to change up a gear or two. Otherwise you'll be pedalling too fast to do it standing, and the "wobble" is bound to set in. It works much better for me when it feels like a steady (slowish) walk rtaher than a mad spin.


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## SpokeyDokey (4 May 2014)

If it's the lady in your avatar then send her up to me and I'll give her some in-saddle tuition.


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## morrisman (5 May 2014)

[QUOTE 3063057, member: 9609"]It reduces the gearing slightly and allows an input of energy from the upper body. So when you run out of gears this is the only solution.[/QUOTE]
How does it reduce the gearing?


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## screenman (5 May 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> Yes but he rolls the bike a tad left and right!


He would go faster if he did not, but it is the effect of all the power he is putting out. Have you tried putting out as much power as he does maybe that will make you rock and roll.


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## Cuchilo (5 May 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> Hi guys.
> Need help please.
> Have a ride friend who pedals like a child when stood up. Imagine a half squat on a bike and pedalling perfrctly still body and bike locked out. No rythym or swing so to speak.
> 
> ...


Sounds like they are almost in a good position for a flat out sprint to me ?


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## rb58 (5 May 2014)

Take her to a spin class (so long as they have proper spin bikes - Wattbikes or Keiser for example) so she can practice pedaling while standing up without having to worry about other riders and traffic. It sounds to me it's leg extension that needs to be worked on, which I guess will help her use more leg muscles than the quads which are dominating the climb. I was also taught that too much side to side is wasted energy, and i try to keep my effort in the vertical plane (I've no idea of that's correct or not though).


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## screenman (5 May 2014)

Sounds to me like she has it right and the OP wrong.


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## KneesUp (5 May 2014)

[QUOTE 3063604, member: 9609"]Well my theory is; from the bikes furthest lean to the left position to its furthest to the right position, the pedal relative to the ground will have moved, therefore relative to the ground the pedal has a greater distance to travel, therefore a greater mechanical advantage. Of course this mechanical advantage comes at the cost of us needing to move the bike from side to side which is undoubtedly wasteful, but then the muscles of the upper body has been brought into play that also reduces the burden on the legs.[/QUOTE]

The 'gearing' is a measure of how many time the driven wheel rotates for each rotation of the pedals - and how hard this is to do is also a function of crank length.

Leaning the bike has no effect on any of the factors that determine the gearing.


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## KneesUp (5 May 2014)

[QUOTE 3063622, member: 9609"]from the top to the bottom of the stroke, the foot will have travelled further, hence greater mechanical advantage.[/QUOTE]

Not if it's attached to a fixed-length crank arm it won't.

EDIT - or at least it won't have in the plane that affects the gearing.


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## JasonHolder (5 May 2014)

RWright said:


> I think her putting down more power and improving her riding style may come with more experience and confidence. If she doesn't have a lot of saddle time let her develop her muscles and sense of balance on the bike by riding more and increasing her ability. After a while you can use the "LAST ONE TO THE TOP OF THE HILL IS A ROTTEN EGG!" method and see how development is coming along.



Thanks for that. I think I'll give this approach a go! Much appreciatted.

Julia thanks for your response too! Just a quick one, that heel Down business... It=you losing power and efficiency big time.

Have you ever seen this diagram?


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## Julia9054 (5 May 2014)

Your diagram shows heel down on down stroke - from about 12 o'clock to about 5o'clock. Which is what I meant. Feels a bit strange at the moment and I'm not noticing any discernible benefit but will persevere for now.


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## JasonHolder (5 May 2014)

Julia9054 said:


> Your diagram shows heel down on down stroke - from about 12 o'clock to about 5o'clock. Which is what I meant. Feels a bit strange at the moment and I'm not noticing any discernible benefit but will persevere for now.


Ah got you  your description was brief first time round. Thought you were heel down the entire revolution 
Who ever you heard it off is right. However, as with most things, it takes some time for change to become fluid and economical. Much like spinning really.


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## Gravity Aided (6 May 2014)

Ankling is what we used to refer to that as
http://cyclingtips.com.au/2009/05/efficiency-of-pedal-stroke-ankling/


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## Rob3rt (7 May 2014)

I'd leave her too it, with experience will mostly likely come a natural improvement in form.



RWright said:


> The Manx Missile stands and looks very crouched down, works pretty well for him.




Cav isn't crouched in the same sense the OP is about I gather. Cav is rotated forward over the bike, the subject of the OP is upright but squatted down IF I am understanding correctly

[QUOTE 3063604, member: 9609"]Well my theory is; from the bikes furthest lean to the left position to its furthest to the right position, the pedal relative to the ground will have moved, therefore relative to the ground the pedal has a greater distance to travel, therefore a greater mechanical advantage. Of course this mechanical advantage comes at the cost of us needing to move the bike from side to side which is undoubtedly wasteful, but then the muscles of the upper body has been brought into play that also reduces the burden on the legs.[/QUOTE]

&

[QUOTE 3063622, member: 9609"]from the top to the bottom of the stroke, the foot will have travelled further, hence greater mechanical advantage.[/QUOTE]

Stop thinking relative to the ground but instead think relative to the bottom bracket. 



MikeG said:


> Do it the quick way instead: stay sitting down.



Staying seated is not inherently quicker.



JasonHolder said:


> View attachment 44371
> that heel Down business... It=you losing power and efficiency big time.
> 
> Have you ever seen this diagram?
> View attachment 44371



Heel up, heel down, etc, I wouldn't concern yourself with it too much. A proper bike fit should sort it, for example you can't heel down if the saddle is high enough to stop it for example, however it could do more harm than good if there is a physiological reason they pedal heel down. Some people they may simply be better off doing something "imperfect" if it works for them as most people will tend to what is efficient, if they don't move away from that technique there is probably a reason.

BTW Friel isn't always right, he says plenty of debatable stuff


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## Peter Armstrong (7 May 2014)

I climb seated, but only stand when punching a short steep hill.


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## Spinney (7 May 2014)

RWright said:


> I think her putting down more power and improving her riding style may come with more experience and confidence. If she doesn't have a lot of saddle time let her develop her muscles and sense of balance on the bike by riding more and increasing her ability.* After a while you can use the "LAST ONE TO THE TOP OF THE HILL IS A ROTTEN EGG!" method* and see how development is coming along.



Use this with care... believe me, it can frequently result in a '**** off then' response!


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## KneesUp (8 May 2014)

I was thinking about this thread the other day as I contemplated what I call 'the big hill' on the way home (it's 12% briefly - that's big to me!) and it occured to me that although I instincively got out of the saddle when I had my road bike all those years ago, and would have got up the hill by blasting up it, my approach now is to sit and grind up. I don't know if this is a fitness thing, or a geometry thing: I ride an MTB at the moment and because it doesn't have bar ends, I don't feel like I'd be able to get much leverage standing up, so it kind of seems pointless. The frame is smaller, too, so it feels like the cross-bar is too short to have enough room to get up, and I haven't got clipless pedals or toe clips on it - all factors that mean I don't bother standing, but until I thought about it I wasn't really aware of.

Perhaps the reluctant standee - aside from just preferring to ride the way she wants to ride - just doesn't feel comfortable riding that way on the bike she has?


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## Spinney (8 May 2014)

KneesUp said:


> I was thinking about this thread the other day as I contemplated what I call 'the big hill' on the way home (it's 12% briefly - that's big to me!) and it occured to me that although I instincively got out of the saddle when I had my road bike all those years ago, and would have got up the hill by blasting up it, my approach now is to sit and grind up. I don't know if this is a fitness thing, or a geometry thing: I ride an MTB at the moment and because it doesn't have bar ends, I don't feel like I'd be able to get much leverage standing up, so it kind of seems pointless. The frame is smaller, too, so it feels like the cross-bar is too short to have enough room to get up, and I haven't got clipless pedals or toe clips on it - all factors that mean I don't bother standing, but until I thought about it I wasn't really aware of.
> 
> Perhaps the reluctant standee - aside from just preferring to ride the way she wants to ride - just doesn't feel comfortable riding that way on the bike she has?


This makes sense - I never stand up much on the hybrid, but do quite often on the tourer


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## JasonHolder (8 May 2014)

Very possible. She had a hybrid before her road bike. I would have though 6months on the specialized dolce would have gotten her used to the geo etc. Guess some people just find adapting harder.

Rode with her again today, now considering removing her saddle to make her find economy standing the hard way.


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## KneesUp (8 May 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> Very possible. She had a hybrid before her road bike. I would have though 6months on the specialized dolce would have gotten her used to the geo etc. Guess some people just find adapting harder.
> 
> Rode with her again today, now considering removing her saddle to make her find economy standing the hard way.


 
Why are you so obsessed with how someone else rides their bike? What does she think? Is she happy to ride as she does? Or does she actually want to ride in a less efficient manner?


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## screenman (8 May 2014)

What are your qualifications? I mean how do you know what they are doing is wrong and what you want is correct.
It is easy to put people off of cycling by messing with their head.


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## JasonHolder (8 May 2014)

She wants to get better and I want her to look Pro as fark as she does, she's keen, even asking me to teach her to track stand and other useful stuff like that. 
PS I made sure her saddle bag had an accident to ensure its removal rapido! So getting better definitely


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## KneesUp (8 May 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> She wants to get better and I want her to look Pro as **** as she does, she's keen, even asking me to teach her to track stand and other useful stuff like that.
> PS I made sure her saddle bag had an accident to ensure its removal rapido! So getting better definitely



Pro - not like this looser, sitting down like an amateur?


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## cyberknight (8 May 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> She wants to get better and I want her to look Pro as **** as she does, she's keen, even asking me to teach her to track stand and other useful stuff like that.
> PS I made sure her saddle bag had an accident to ensure its removal rapido! So getting better definitely


Why would removing a saddle bag make her more pro ?
Yeah i know the pros dont use them but they have a support car , saddle bags are great for tubes, levers, multi tools , house keys etc leaving the jersey pockets room for gilet, phone, energy bars etc .


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## JasonHolder (8 May 2014)

Haha yes yes very good! 
Its a necessity to be actually able to stand though, 100miler fully seated is going to hurt


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## Cuchilo (8 May 2014)

100 miler without one will hurt more


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## Pat "5mph" (8 May 2014)

I think this thread needs the input of @Telemark and @phantasmagoriana both very competent cyclists.
What do you think about the op, girls? I mean the original post, not the original poster


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## Cuchilo (8 May 2014)

Pat "5mph" said:


> What do you think about the op, girls?



Pre op or post op ? Some of them look ok I guess but its still a fella innit !


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## JasonHolder (8 May 2014)

cyberknight said:


> Why would removing a saddle bag make her more pro ?
> Yeah i know the pros dont use them but they have a support car , saddle bags are great for tubes, levers, multi tools , house keys etc leaving the jersey pockets room for gilet, phone, energy bars etc .



Appreciatte your input cyber.
How many tyre lever"s" do you need exactly? What ever floats your boat though 

Personally I learnt to do without them growing up so don't need them. For the tough days you have 2 perfectly usable quick releases that work. Depending on design obviously now there's going to be a troll whose gonna bum rush about QRs but whatever


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## cyberknight (8 May 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> Appreciatte your input cyber.
> Risky not riding with a pump though wouldnt you say? How many tyre lever"s" do you need exactly? What ever floats your boat though
> 
> Personally I learnt to do without them growing up so don't need them. For the tough days you have 2 perfectly usable quick releases that work. Depending on design obviously now there's going to be a troll whose gonna bum rush me rather than thank me saving them carrying 6 tyre leavers around in saddle bag.


What ?
I am bemused that you ride hundreds of miles and are not prepared , and yes of course i carry a pump but i was not trying to insult you by statingthe obvious but it seems you delight in insulting others.


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## KneesUp (8 May 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> Appreciatte your input cyber.
> Risky not riding with a pump though wouldnt you say? How many tyre lever"s" do you need exactly? What ever floats your boat though
> 
> Personally I learnt to do without them growing up so don't need them. For the tough days you have 2 perfectly usable quick releases that work. Depending on design obviously now there's going to be a troll whose gonna bum rush me rather than thank me saving them carrying 6 tyre leavers around in saddle bag.



I have ridden 11 miles with a friend who got a flat and neither of us had any tools or money, so we rolled his tyre off and stuffed it as solid as possible with grass. Got him home, although he said it wasn't very comfortable.


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## screenman (8 May 2014)

Jason, you should be able to discuss the points with me. Not just tell me to clear off, if you do not like my posts on our forum report them.

Some as you may have notice like them.


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## MikeG (8 May 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> Its a necessity to be actually able to stand though, 100miler fully seated is going to hurt



No it isn't. 

My hundred milers are all fully seated. The 105Kkm audax I did at the weekend at 30kph average (18.4mph) was all seated. The only time I ever stand is if I get caught in the wrong gear at a stop I wasn't expecting. I ride faster up hills than guys who stand up. Standing up is just a great way of getting tired legs, and is utterly unnecessary.


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## screenman (8 May 2014)

screenman said:


> Jason, you should be able to discuss the points with me. Not just tell me to clear off, if you do not like my posts on our forum report them.
> 
> Some as you may have notice like them.


I am not sure there is not some trolling going on here, what do others think.


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## JasonHolder (8 May 2014)

Edited. Didnt mean to be a twit with you. simply cannot help myself after meeting 400bhp and other such characters. 

How am I unprepared if I can change a tube without a lever? Or do you mean something else?


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## JasonHolder (8 May 2014)

Cheers mike. she needs to learn to stand decently I'm afraid. As per my original post


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## JasonHolder (8 May 2014)

Here's a quick video I made. Found it hard enough getting into her mucked up style. Its a much deeper squat than i could do putting all weight onto quads in escense like rob3rt said about sprinter stance. Rather than simply crushing the pedals with body weight and a little bit of quads.
Easier to see on video further down the street
PS yes my stems too short and the BB click is fixed


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## Cuchilo (8 May 2014)

Not sure about a troll . Jason seems quite serious about his training and given his past or present job as a hat model i'm sure you can understand why training is a big deal for him .


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## Cuchilo (8 May 2014)

The vid isn't really clear as you are riding into shadows and then into the sun but , the second one that you want seems to be what i do when grinding up hill or laying off a little to change gear . The first that she is doing is what i do when its not a problem and I'm gaining speed to sit back down or going for a sprint .
Are you both riding the same set up ? She may well just be finding it easy in a better gear and wondering what you are talking about as her legs don't need to that .


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## JasonHolder (8 May 2014)

Guess so, I think its more down to balance like countless people have said though. She looks to be using her legs to conciously balance as its not fluid and natural yet. 
Any good tips to teach balance? We used to do team training where you ride along side and bump handle bars/ push each other about and other such things but its a bit hard core for her me thinks.


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## vickster (8 May 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> Haha yes yes very good!
> Its a necessity to be actually able to stand though, 100miler fully seated is going to hurt


@jefmcg has done rather more than 100 miles seated and lived to tell the tale


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## Pat "5mph" (8 May 2014)

vickster said:


> @jefmcg has done rather more than 100 miles seated and lived to tell the tale


Actually, so have I


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## MikeG (8 May 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> she needs to learn to stand decently......



You don't use the phrase "in my opinion" very much, do you Jason?


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## Cuchilo (8 May 2014)

I'm not an expert on riding but i am an expert in being new . Tell her to ride up a nasty hill and she will soon be riding upright like you want . I think it may be best for her to suss it out for herself given a hill challenge .


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## vickster (8 May 2014)

And I am not allowed to stand up on the bike at the mo...although I may have been naughty and cheated a few times


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## KneesUp (8 May 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> Haha yes yes very good!
> Its a necessity to be actually able to stand though, 100miler fully seated is going to hurt


If she's doing it as per your video (which doesn't look odd) then she is standing.
How many miles out of an average 100 would you reckon to be out of the saddle?


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## KneesUp (8 May 2014)

The whole premise of this thread is, in my opinion, very silly.

Jason - you are asking your friend to do something she isn't that inclined to do, is inefficient and unnecessary, and are nonetheless concerned that she isn't doing the unnecessary and less efficient thing (seemingly) only you want her to do in a style you approve of. 

I just don't get your motives.

What's wrong with just riding with your friend and enjoying the ride and the company? Why are you turning it in to some sort of chain-driven drill?


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## 400bhp (8 May 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> Edited. Didnt mean to be a twit with you. simply cannot help myself after meeting 400bhp and other such characters.
> 
> How am I unprepared if I can change a tube without a lever? Or do you mean something else?



I have never met you so don't claim you have.


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## Gravity Aided (9 May 2014)

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZJ--IPg7Hs
This was in the same YouTube set, I thought it was cute.


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## JasonHolder (9 May 2014)

Pat5mph" said:


> Actually, so have I


In a train? Lol


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## MikeG (9 May 2014)

[QUOTE 3070851, member: 9609"]Indeed, I live in a hilly area and have inadequate gears, so you would either get good at standing or get sick of getting off and pushing.............[/QUOTE]...........or you would change your cassette such that you didn't have inadequate gears. £10 or £15.


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## GetAGrip (9 May 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> In a train? Lol


Actually, I have a brilliant plan to bring an end to this problem for you. Let your cycling buddy read this thread!!
Let her see how rude, patronising and insulting (IMO of course) you are, and if she has any self respect at all, the whole point of this thread will be soooooooooo yesterdays problem darling


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## Spinney (9 May 2014)

MikeG said:


> No it isn't.
> 
> My hundred milers are all fully seated. The 105Kkm audax I did at the weekend at 30kph average (18.4mph) was all seated. The only time I ever stand is if I get caught in the wrong gear at a stop I wasn't expecting. I ride faster up hills than guys who stand up. *Standing up is just a great way of getting tired legs, and is utterly unnecessary.*



Maybe for you, but I disagree. User9609 uses standing up to relieve tired leg muscles. I find standing up now and then on a long ride helps to stop my bum aching too much. Whether or not standing up is useful for a particular rider depends on the rider.



JasonHolder said:


> PS I made sure her saddle bag had an accident to ensure its removal rapido! So getting better definitely



Mr Spinney sometimes nags me not to take too much. But I prefer having a spare layer, enough tools to sort things out, enough food, a lock for cafe stops etc. If this seems like too much gear to take on a long ride to some people - tough. If I do a long ride I'm doing it for myself, and if I want to take along spare layers I will. Yes, I would survive without them, but *it's up to me*.


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## MikeG (9 May 2014)

Spinney said:


> Maybe for you, but I disagree. User9609 uses standing up to relieve tired leg muscles. I find standing up now and then on a long ride helps to stop my bum aching too much. Whether or not standing up is useful for a particular rider depends on the rider.


I was meaning standing up to climb hills, not standing up occasionally to relieve pressure on your bum. I might do this a couple of times on a hundred miler, maybe, but only when coasting.


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## GetAGrip (9 May 2014)

My standing up is mostly for relief on the bum and not for efficiency. Though standing does sometimes get me over the top of a long and tiring hill.
Seems, riding so you enjoy the ride today and still want to do it all again tomorrow is what counts - unless your a pro like my mate Cav. I'm looking for the 'dream on' smilie


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## MikeG (9 May 2014)

User said:


> It is still personal though, some one way and some another, not a matter of right and wrong.


Oh agreed, 100%. Which is why watching the OP try to force something on his friend is not edifying, particularly when the science is against him.


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## Rob3rt (9 May 2014)

I have seen very few, if any hill climb competitors sitting and spinning all the way up a hill, most certainly not seen any of the winners doing so...

Yet I see people like Froome doing it in grand tours...

My conclusion, it is highly dependant on circumstances, not least the type of hill, but also what has preceeded and what will follow, whether that be nothing (hill climb) another hill on the same ride/race (bike ride, sportive or single stage road race etc), or another 100 mile stage (grand tour).


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## Hacienda71 (9 May 2014)

Rob3rt said:


> I have seen very few, if any hill climb competitors sitting and spinning all the way up a hill, most certainly not seen any of the winners doing so...
> 
> Yet I see people like Froome doing it in grand tours...
> 
> My conclusion, it is highly dependant on circumstances, not least the type of hill, but also what has preceeded and what will follow, whether that be nothing (hill climb) another hill on the same ride/race (bike ride, sportive or single stage road race etc), or another 100 mile stage (grand tour).


Do you spin up Long Hill Rob or would you be out of the saddle all the way in a hc? I tend to spend most of my time spinning up hills like that or The Cat where the gradient is pretty low and only get out of the saddle where there are short steeper bits, albeit on the Cat that is the first mile or two.


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## Rob3rt (9 May 2014)

Hacienda71 said:


> Do you spin up Long Hill Rob or would you be out of the saddle all the way in a hc? I tend to spend most of my time spinning up hills like that or The Cat where the gradient is pretty low and only get out of the saddle where there are short steeper bits, albeit on the Cat that is the first mile or two.



I would be seated and staying low and aero up a climb like Long Hill and most of the Cat (those climbs are a low gradient with high speeds, I'd be tempted to go in full aero getup next time tbh, I used a disc wheel, trispoke and aero lid on the Cat and Fiddle once, kind of wish I did the last time I raced, it might have been worth a few places), but something like the Rake or Peaslows, I'll be out of the saddle and relying on a catcher waiting at the top to help me dismount safely.

I prefer to sit down and push rather than wrestle, but if it is faster to wrestle, I'll get out of the saddle and wrestle. Not going to sit down and do a shoot time because the science says it is more efficient to sit!


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## JasonHolder (9 May 2014)

Absolutely right Robert.

And why I'd everyone having a pop now? All I'm doing is teaching a girl to stand so that on a 100miler she can stretch her legs and not have too much butt pain. Not trying to make her the next contador or teach her to stand so she can sprint up hills.


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## Rob3rt (9 May 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> Absolutely right Robert.
> 
> And why I'd everyone having a pop now? All I'm doing is teaching a girl to stand so that on a 100miler she can stretch her legs and not have too much butt pain. Not trying to make her the next contador or teach her to stand so she can sprint up hills.



As I said before, most people tend to develop better technique and form as they grow more confident or as their fitness increases. So whilst you may have good intentions (quite frankly, I don't want to debate that) you may do well to just let her do as she does. If it doesn't correct itself in time, then maybe she will ask for help or you can mention it, but even so, if it causes no problems or there is a reason she does this (which might not be immediately obvious) and it works for her, then just leave it be. I've been told to drop my heel, doesn't seem to hinder me pedalling toes down and pedalling otherwise is not comfortable (even with perseverance my achilles hurts) so I carry on pedalling the way I do and it is fine!


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## MikeG (9 May 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> And why I'd everyone having a pop now? All I'm doing is teaching a girl to stand ........



If that was all you were doing, Jason, and you were listening to the responses, then nobody would be "having a pop". Unfortunately, you've told posters to get out of the thread, you've ignored the advice and suggestions given, and you have managed to give everyone the impression that you are actually teaching us, rather than her.

Have you actually read the paper by Prof. David Swain that I linked to?


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## MikeG (9 May 2014)

[QUOTE 3071443, member: 9609"]...... cadence ........ is also very likely to cause musculoskeletal problems.......[/QUOTE]

Really? Don't suppose you've got any evidence?


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## MikeG (9 May 2014)

Well, that sentence covers two separate issues: early onset of tiredness (which is already disproven by the science), and musculo-skeletal problems. It is the latter claim I am interested in, as it runs contrary to what I understand to be the case. I wondered if you have any evidence that sitting and spinning causes such physical problems?


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## KneesUp (9 May 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> All I'm doing is teaching a girl to stand so that on a 100miler she can stretch her legs and not have too much butt pain.



But you've said she can stand on her pedals, which means that if she decides she wants to stretch her legs, she can do.

What you're doing is insisting that she honks the bike in a manner that you approve of whilst she does so, and quite a few of us are 

a) not sure why
b) not entirely comfortable with the way you come across, which is a little controlling.


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## KneesUp (9 May 2014)

[QUOTE 3071555, member: 9609"]The body dose not cope well with any repetitive task, hence RSI - do you have any evidence that sitting and spinning for prolonged periods is not likely to set up musculoskeletal problems in some people.[/QUOTE]
The onus is on the one making the claim, surely?

(My body has coped very well with me breathing continously for some time now.)


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## MikeG (9 May 2014)

[QUOTE 3071555, member: 9609"]The body dose not cope well with any repetitive task, hence RSI - do you have any evidence that sitting in the same position and spinning for prolonged periods is not likely to set up musculoskeletal problems in some people.[/QUOTE]

I note your lack of evidence.

Oh, and let me help you with the concept of burden of proof. Your claim, you back it up.


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## KneesUp (9 May 2014)

[QUOTE 3071584, member: 9609"]I nearly added to my post "apart from stuff like the heart and lungs" as I suspected a bit of sh|t-dippery pedantry.[/QUOTE]

I don't think pointing out the extrapolating anything from an statement that seems to be "this is how the body works apart from some fairly major bits that don't" is pretty meaningless is pedantry.


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## MikeG (9 May 2014)

[QUOTE 3071600, member: 9609"]the proof was in RSI -[/QUOTE]
No, that's not a proof, that's a claim. Proof, or at least good evidence, would be a link to a peer-reviewed paper in which RSI is attributed to sitting down and spinning on a bike. I say again, you made the claim, you back it up.


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## JasonHolder (9 May 2014)

Now look. I don't need a lecture on how to stay seated, controlling personality, or repetitive injuries for that matter.
I asked a single question, gave a 50/50 description and even made a video. Thanks to the handful of decent responses+copious information given by robert, 3rd party related to topic but very informative all the same. The other 5 pages is merely trash.
I'm on 2 MOD warnings already so I have no idea how a lot of you aren't restricted. If you don't know what the question is or don't know anything about the subject. Then dont reply. 
Thanks


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## MikeG (9 May 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> Now look. I don't need a lecture on how to stay seated, controlling personality, or repetitive injuries for that matter.........



It's not all about you, Jason. You started the topic, but that's where your control of it ends. The rest of us can carry on with a discussion around the topic if we so choose, and, clearly, that is what we have chosen to do. Perhaps if you didn't feel it necessary to describe other people's views as trash you might be in less trouble with the mods.


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## JasonHolder (9 May 2014)

That's fair enough. Thank you for taking the time to explain how it works  I'll just accept burnouts advice on the thread loosely related to the topic and problem solved. I think that will instantly make her able to stand and pedal seamlessly.


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## ayceejay (9 May 2014)

Not sure if I have this correct but the question is connected - not to honking on hills but relieving pressure on the derriere - if I am correct why not get your friend to stand on the pedals while free wheeling, on a 100 mile ride there would be many opportunities to do this.


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## Scoosh (9 May 2014)

OK - we've sat down, stood up, gone round in circles and don't really have any clear direction now ... except, perhaps, heading downwards.

Time to Close the thread.


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