# do you filter up to the lights when traffic lights are on red?



## united4ever (14 Nov 2016)

I was waiting about 6 cars back on a single lane residential street with no cycle lane or cycle area at the lights. Couple of cyclists weaved past me and the 5 or 6 cars in front and got to the front and then were straight out of the blocks on amber. Of course the cars behind them were soon looking for a way to overtake.....I couldn't be bothered for a relatively small gain. What's the etiquette here? You may not know if there is a cycle area at the lights so if not is it ok to park yourself in front of the car at the head of the queue?


----------



## simon.r (14 Nov 2016)

If I think I'll get through the next time the lights change I'll just stay in the queue. If it's a very long queue I may well filter to the front, or near the front. If there's an ASL all well and good, if not there's always somewhere big enough to slot a bike in.


----------



## ianrauk (14 Nov 2016)

Some times I do, sometimes I don't. On my commute I pretty much know the sequence of any of the lights at junctions. If I know it's going to be a long wait I may get to the front, especially if there's an ASL, sometimes if there's not. If I know I won't have time then I will hang back. If I'm in the way of any car that want's to overtake and they can't overtake then that's tough. They just have to wait.


----------



## vickster (14 Nov 2016)

Technically you should stop behind the stop line at the lights, with or without an ASL. If no ASL as above, usually a spot to slot in


----------



## DaveReading (14 Nov 2016)

simon.r said:


> If I think I'll get through the next time the lights change I'll just stay in the queue. If it's a very long queue I may well filter to the front, or near the front.



Same here. 

If you know you're going to get through on the first green then there's no point in squeezing past cars that are only going to have to overtake you again as soon as the lights change.


----------



## mjr (14 Nov 2016)

I stop next to the first gap, between cars one and two, then merge in when the lights change. I won't wait in line because there are too many nose-tail shunts. I'm lucky in that most traffic lights near me have cycle track bypasses.


----------



## slowmotion (14 Nov 2016)

I'll filter far enough to have a good chance of getting through on the next green light. If there are road works with a narrow restriction, and there are not many cars in the queue, I'll let them go first. I don't see any point in holding them up when it costs me only a few seconds. Sometimes they give a wave of thanks......

KERRRRRRRCHINGGGGGGG!


----------



## summerdays (14 Nov 2016)

I'm trying out different routes on my commute, and this evenings one had very bad queues so I filtered past stationary traffic a number of times, probably passing 10-20 cars minimum each time. I think I'll choose another route for next time, I prefer to keep moving than start stop all the time. 

If I know the light sequence I'm more likely to filter towards the front, and find somewhere to slot in, it's rare I've not been able to rejoin the traffic.


----------



## T4tomo (14 Nov 2016)

Depends where you are, if it somewhere where cars will instantly overtake you and roads are narrow, then pointless filtering. In london, always filter as bikes are quicker than cars through the traffic, so your going to have to overtake them at some point.


----------



## Fab Foodie (14 Nov 2016)

I just bunny hop over the cars to the front, trackstand the Brompton and then rocket away.
In my dreams I do what @ianrauk does.


----------



## PK99 (15 Nov 2016)

T4tomo said:


> Depends where you are, if it somewhere where cars will instantly overtake you and roads are narrow, then pointless filtering.* In london, always filter as bikes are quicker than cars through the traffic*, so your going to have to overtake them at some point.



Depends which bit of London you are in and which roads you are on. On very few of the urban roads (SW19/20 and out) I ride would that apply other than in Rush hour.


----------



## classic33 (15 Nov 2016)

Depends on the traffic and the time of day, as well as what type of road.

Rush hour with the school run thrown in isn't worth it.

Also worth considering any diversions in place, that may lead to heavier traffic.


----------



## Racing roadkill (15 Nov 2016)

Red lights?


----------



## steveindenmark (15 Nov 2016)

I dont see the point in overtaking a car if it is immediatley going to overtake me again.


----------



## mick1836 (15 Nov 2016)

united4ever said:


> I was waiting about 6 cars back on a single lane residential street with no cycle lane or cycle area at the lights. Couple of cyclists weaved past me and the 5 or 6 cars in front and got to the front and then were straight out of the blocks on amber. Of course the cars behind them were soon looking for a way to overtake.....I couldn't be bothered for a relatively small gain. What's the etiquette here? You may not know if there is a cycle area at the lights so if not is it ok to park yourself in front of the car at the head of the queue?



There's a large criticism along with video's of motorists closely passing cyclists but what about when cyclists ride up closely past a line of stationary or slow moving vehicles??


----------



## vickster (15 Nov 2016)

mick1836 said:


> There's a large criticism along with video's of motorists closely passing cyclists but what about when cyclists ride up closely past a line of stationary or slow moving vehicles??


They aren't endangering the motorists unlike your other scenario  I only filter very carefully and as far outof the doorzone as possible. I very rarely filter between queues of traffic moving in the same direction


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (15 Nov 2016)

Nope, I plonk myself in the middle of the lane whether behind something or first in the queue.

There is nothing to gain here with almost no cycling infrastructure (asls etc)


----------



## winjim (15 Nov 2016)

mick1836 said:


> There's a large criticism along with video's of motorists closely passing cyclists but what about when cyclists ride up closely past a line of stationary or slow moving vehicles??


I do it all the time. Feel free to video me.


----------



## dim (15 Nov 2016)

in Cambridge in the city, it's not about worrying about the cars.... 

it's about the other cyclists .... some really slow ones here that hold up the flow of the other cyclists so many cyclists try and get to the front of the queue


----------



## Markymark (15 Nov 2016)

mick1836 said:


> There's a large criticism along with video's of motorists closely passing cyclists but what about when cyclists ride up closely past a line of stationary or slow moving vehicles??


Are you serious? A car weighs over a tonne, a bike, 10Kg It's all about momentum. If you are unsure lets play a game. I'll run into your car at 10mph, then afterwards I'll drive at you standing still at 10mph. I might even visit you in hospital.

If you still find any of this confusing, please find a 12 year old who will happily explain the physics to you.


----------



## shouldbeinbed (15 Nov 2016)

mick1836 said:


> There's a large criticism along with video's of motorists closely passing cyclists but what about when cyclists ride up closely past a line of stationary or slow moving vehicles??





vickster said:


> They aren't endangering the motorists unlike your other scenario  I only filter very carefully and as far outof the doorzone as possible. I very rarely filter between queues of traffic moving in the same direction





Markymark said:


> Are you serious? A car weighs over a tonne, a bike, 10Kg It's all about momentum. If you are unsure lets play a game. I'll run into your car at 10mph, then afterwards I'll drive at you standing still at 10mpg. I might even visit you in hospital.
> 
> If you still find any of this confusing, please find a 12 year old who will happily explain the physics to you.



To be fair we're not talking about crashing into one another, that is a whole different scenario. Everyone on bike on foot or in a MV understands impacts are a bad thing, not everyone has the same experience from the same standpoint &/or doesn't/hasn't thought about it enough to get the differences of proximity passing in different modes of transport though. 

To put a bit of counterbalance for mick1836. 

I have had that conversation with motoring colleagues and the simple physics, mass and amount of air turbulence and disturbance arguments is lost on them when explaining why I get upset if they pass me at 30 odd mph 18 inches from my elbow but why I will happily do similar at ~10 mph when I'm filtering stationary traffic. 

They generally have no experience from routine cycling for how it feels to be close passed on a bike so don't have that point of reference nor a vested interest in thinking it through. It is another part of the driving culture that to a degree or other we all fall into if we drive, the safe, airtight, quite soundproofed cocoon divorcing us from the world around and considerations of it.


----------



## Elybazza61 (15 Nov 2016)

dim said:


> in Cambridge in the city, it's not about worrying about the cars....
> 
> it's about the other cyclists .... some really slow ones here that hold up the flow of the other cyclists so many cyclists try and get to the front of the queue



Very much this^

Get a lot of bods who will force their way through and then poodle along causing a nice tailback although it's quite funny to stop have someone force pass and then overtake them again,this happens a lot along Mill Road especially going over the bridge.Mill Road also seems to be a favourite area of the red light ignorers and the Coleridge Rd junction is a favoutite place for cars to run redswhich is very iffy as the sequencing of the lights there is pretty quick.

As for filtering it depends on the junction and what's in the queue,in some cases it's better to actually filter on the right of the traffic rather than squeezing through on the inside.


----------



## shouldbeinbed (15 Nov 2016)

To answer the OP. I'm like @ianrauk too. Sometimes I do, Sometimes I don't depends on how far up I can see, if I can see a safe and sensible drop in point, whether I'm just ambling along without time being a factor, how well I know the bit of road and prevailing driving etc. There is no one size fits all rule and common sense should be applied.

To add another wiggle into the mix, by preference I will filter on the right of traffic = motorbike like and on the drivers side so more likely to be looked out for (particularly in less cycle-y areas) and more likely to be seen in their peripheral view of their wing mirror.

I'm also more visible to the oncoming traffic e.g. if there's their right turns coming up so I'm not a last minute surprise if some helpful driver in my queue has flashed them on without checking around themselves properly.


----------



## MontyVeda (15 Nov 2016)

I'll almost always filter to the front of the queue where possible. Not doing so is pointless and I may as well be in a car.


----------



## jefmcg (15 Nov 2016)

mick1836 said:


> There's a large criticism along with video's of motorists closely passing cyclists but what about when cyclists ride up closely past a line of stationary or slow moving vehicles??


To pile on... 
Pedestrians complain when a car passes them closely, but what about when pedestrians move pass stopped cars so closely they brush them with their clothing?


----------



## ufkacbln (15 Nov 2016)

There is no clear answer and it can depend on local knowledge

I have a crossroads on my commute

If the lights allow oncoming traffic then filtering up the cycle lane to the ASL is fine and safe

If lights allow the oncoming traffic to turn right then it is safe if they have just turned green, but the next change will see my line of traffic move and being in the cycle lane at all is dodgy as you WILL be left hooked, so join the traffic flow at this point

So the same junction can be safe and unsafe to filter


----------



## glasgowcyclist (15 Nov 2016)

@mick1836 


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJI2BQ32WWw


----------



## Simontm (15 Nov 2016)

jefmcg said:


> To pile on...
> Pedestrians complain when a car passes them closely, but what about when pedestrians move pass stopped cars so closely they brush them with their clothing?


Bastards...won't anyone think of the children


----------



## Simontm (15 Nov 2016)

glasgowcyclist said:


> @mick1836
> 
> 
> View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJI2BQ32WWw



Pah, not looking at that the answer's easy

It's do or do not there is no try


----------



## GuyBoden (15 Nov 2016)

I wait in the queue behind the car in front, just as I would when I'm driving a car.....................


----------



## DaveReading (15 Nov 2016)

Markymark said:


> then afterwards I'll drive at you standing still at 10mpg



I think you might be surprised at how much fuel economy has improved over the years.


----------



## jonny jeez (15 Nov 2016)

I'm not sure that there is an etiquette.

Just ride how you feel comfortable, if one day that means filtering to the front, do it, if one day it doesn't...then dont.

Most car drivers don't really give a hoot either way...only the idiots, who are just idiots.


----------



## Markymark (15 Nov 2016)

DaveReading said:


> I think you might be surprised at how much fuel economy has improved over the years.


Not they way I drive!


----------



## Jody (15 Nov 2016)

Depends on the length of queue as to wether I would wait or filter. If its only a few cars or I would get through on the change of lights then I would wait. Anything more than that and I would filter up to the front.


----------



## Tin Pot (15 Nov 2016)

You are safest at the front of the queue, filter up where it is safe to do so - otherwise, wait in line.


----------



## Andrew_P (15 Nov 2016)

Same as most I decide by a few factors how long I will wait, can I wait where I am and get through on the green plus how likely am I to get stuck mid pass and the traffic starts to move off.


----------



## mjr (15 Nov 2016)

Markymark said:


> Not they way I drive!


And in London...


----------



## r04DiE (15 Nov 2016)

steveindenmark said:


> I dont see the point in overtaking a car if it is immediatley going to overtake me again.


What about momentum?


----------



## Starchivore (15 Nov 2016)

Markymark said:


> Not they way I drive!



You don't mean to say you actually do your own driving? I thought you were a gentleman?


----------



## nickyboy (15 Nov 2016)

Sounds like I'm similar to most here. If it's a short queue and it looks like I will get through on the next green I just wait in line. If the queue is longer I will filter. Usually up the outside but no hard and fast rule. Really depends how wide the road is and where the filtering space is 

What I wouldn't do though is filter all the way to the front by going up the inside if there is a left turn at the lights. I'd worry about being caught a few cars from the front when the lights change and get left hooked. In those circumstances I'll hold back a few cars and look to take a central position when the traffic starts moving


----------



## Markymark (15 Nov 2016)

Starchivore said:


> You don't mean to say you actually do your own driving? I thought you were a gentleman?


If it's good enough for Her Maj...


----------



## Lonestar (15 Nov 2016)

I did today up Stopford Road East Ham when some tithead of a BT Open Reach tried a well dodgy overtake for a MGIF trick.Had to move out to stop the car behind trying the same thing.As he passed I shouted that's pretty pointless and again as I filtered past.(As there was cars stacked up to the lights.) Generally if I haven't got a point to prove it varies on circumstances whether I do or not.Didn't seem him after the lights.I guess he turned left or right.


----------



## mythste (15 Nov 2016)

If I know the road/junction I'll typically filter up, If I don't or I'm concerned about something I can (or can't) see up ahead, I won't.


----------



## cosmicbike (15 Nov 2016)

I use the same commute day in, day out, so know the light sequences. If I'm going to get through the green waiting in a line of cars then I will, if not I'll filter to the front (ish).
When the traffics bad on the dual carriageway I will filter between the 2 lanes. Worth remembering how wide your bars are at this point, or you get sore fingers


----------



## keithmac (15 Nov 2016)

I've notice recently a few people pulling over to give me room when filtering down the side of stationery traffic, I always give them a thumbs up (rightly so!).

If I do filter it's slowly and keeping a beady eye open, I've only been doored once and that was enough!.

To be fair on my commute there is a cycle box on the majority of the traffic lights. I hang back of there's a lorry or rubbish truck at the front of the queue as no point making it awkward for both of us.

Worst is the cyclists who jump the red lights while you're waiting, then get in the bloody way. I overtook a nobber twice doing this on the same trip..


----------



## T4tomo (15 Nov 2016)

PK99 said:


> Depends which bit of London you are in and which roads you are on. On very few of the urban roads (SW19/20 and out) I ride would that apply other than in Rush hour.


I was meaning west end and city, Brompton commute post train ride in. Sw19/20 is more like the West Country.


----------



## summerdays (15 Nov 2016)

steveindenmark said:


> I dont see the point in overtaking a car if it is immediatley going to overtake me again.


This morning I doubt there was a car that ever saw me.... gridlock... I'd have been so late if I'd waited in line!


----------



## steveindenmark (16 Nov 2016)

If its gridlock they are not going to immediately overtake you are they.

What I am saying is that there is no point in squeezing yourself past cars just to get a few seconds in front of a them, for it then to come past you again. I find it less stressful and safer, just to hang back a bit and move with the flow of the traffic.

There are times when filtering is perfectly acceptable. You just need to pick them.


----------



## Sandra6 (16 Nov 2016)

It depends if the cars that are now ahead of me have just close passed me or not


----------



## mjr (16 Nov 2016)

Markymark said:


> If it's good enough for Her Maj...


I'm told she's actually pretty good near cyclists, too, as you might expect with various relatives reportedly cycling in Norfolk, but her accompanying special branch drivers are rather more variable. I've not seen her myself AFAIK (but I rarely figure out who's behind the glass anyway) but Harry passed with plenty of room.


----------



## summerdays (16 Nov 2016)

Sandra6 said:


> It depends if the cars that are now ahead of me have just close passed me or not


Or just overtook me to pull in and stop at the back of the queue 2 ft ahead.... that definitely results in a smile at them as I pass them... I don't care how far forward ... just enough to say well that was worth your effort then


----------



## alecstilleyedye (19 Nov 2016)

depends on a variety of factors;

phase of lights - if i don't know what the phase is i'm more cautious
makeup of the traffic - filtering between two lanes of cars is fine, but with a bus in one lane and a lorry in the other, discretion is the better part of valour
if overtaking moving traffic that is slowly increasing speed, i always tuck back behind the car behind the one i think i can realistically overtake…


----------



## keithmac (19 Nov 2016)

summerdays said:


> Or just overtook me to pull in and stop at the back of the queue 2 ft ahead.... that definitely results in a smile at them as I pass them... I don't care how far forward ... just enough to say well that was worth your effort then



This often amazes me, cars will wizz past then 30 seconds later you're passing them in the traffic jam (which presumably they knew was there?). 

Buses overtaking then immediately pulling into a stop is another bugbear of mine, what's the point?.


----------



## mustang1 (19 Nov 2016)

I usually filter to the front but only if mostly convenient and safe. If lights have been red for a while then I just hang back. But different situations and all that.

The real answer is.... It depends.


----------



## mjr (6 Dec 2016)

keithmac said:


> This often amazes me, cars will wizz past then 30 seconds later you're passing them in the traffic jam (which presumably they knew was there?).


No, they didn't know because most motorists only seem to think about the next three seconds. The existence of a queue in the same place there's always a queue seems to surprise them.

Such limited foresight is almost a requirement of motoring these days, else more people would realise that cycling in most towns is faster in many cases - it might not have as fast a top speed, but people cycling can usually avoid being stopped sat in lines as much and park much closer to their destination - neither of which can be changed in most towns without huge destruction of buildings and massive construction of usually-ugly flyovers, underpasses and car parks.


----------



## Drago (22 Dec 2016)

Not to any great extent. Every car you pass is liable to overtake you back anyway, so nothings gained. A proportion of those will do so dangerously. For the seconds you might, if you're very lucky, save it's hardly worth the effort and risk.


----------



## summerdays (22 Dec 2016)

Drago said:


> Not to any great extent. Every car you pass is liable to overtake you back anyway, so nothings gained. A proportion of those will do so dangerously. For the seconds you might, if you're very lucky, save it's hardly worth the effort and risk.


Not if the traffic is just bumper to bumper.... I quite often pass a car and it may be another mile before it overtakes or one of us turns off before they do.


----------



## HLaB (22 Dec 2016)

Mibbes Aye, Mibbes Naw, Just Mibbes 

Translation: It depends for me, is there an ASL, timing/ staging of the lights, length of queue, number of lanes, easiness, my mood, is it safer, purpose, (my movement straight on or left/right), etc.


----------



## david k (27 Dec 2016)

Most of the cycling I do is on routes avoiding heavy traffic and lots of lights.

When I am in that situation I look for a safe spot rather than one up the queue.

Sometimes the safe spot is at the front if the road is wide enough for all to pass safely, sometimes it's where a car has left more space, if on a thin road I usually just stay where I am, I find it safer


----------



## david k (27 Dec 2016)

steveindenmark said:


> If its gridlock they are not going to immediately overtake you are they.
> 
> What I am saying is that there is no point in squeezing yourself past cars just to get a few seconds in front of a them, for it then to come past you again. I find it less stressful and safer, just to hang back a bit and move with the flow of the traffic.
> 
> There are times when filtering is perfectly acceptable. You just need to pick them.


In my experience there's usually minimal gain, so I always look at safety first, potential gain second


----------



## Jimidh (27 Dec 2016)

Depends on the situation - if filtering up will get me through the lights before they change then I will.

If I'll get through without filtering then I just sit behind the last car and wait my turn.


----------



## PK99 (27 Dec 2016)

I avoid sitting at the back of a long queue through several changes of lights so tend to filter towards but not to the front of the queue.


----------



## Salty seadog (28 Dec 2016)

Markymark said:


> If it's good enough for Her Maj...



Haha, yes, on the Sandringham estate maybe, stick her on the south circular and it would be utter carnage....


----------



## Slick (28 Dec 2016)

I have to admit, I do love filtering passed a particularly long que of cars that had passed me earlier on one particular stretch of road.


----------



## kingrollo (11 Jan 2017)

I tend to look who will be overtaking me. If its white van man for example - I stay behind - Id rather him out of the way


----------



## Morning all (12 Feb 2017)

Almost always, I don't pull up alongside large vehicles though but if I know I can get in front then I will.


----------



## DaveReading (12 Feb 2017)

Slightly different situation, but there's a junction in town where a bus/cycle only lane crosses over a dual carriageway at a light-controlled junction.

There's never much crossing traffic, for obvious reasons, but if I'm waiting at the lights when a bus draws up alongside me I'll always wave it on when the lights change as I'd much rather have it where I can see it (plus there's a bus stop about 100 yards after the junction). 

Most bus drivers seem a bit surprised when I do that.


----------



## r04DiE (12 Feb 2017)

Good idea.


----------



## froze (13 Feb 2017)

Technically bicycles are looked as vehicles according to most state laws, and as a vehicle you have to line up behind the car in front of you. Of course most states wouldn't probably care if you cut in front of a line of cars, but the motorists might not like you so you should expect them to pass you close instead of the 3 foot deal. The only time I ever cut in front a line of cars is IF there is either a bike path or a wide shoulder starting on the other side of the intersection.


----------



## mjr (13 Feb 2017)

froze said:


> Technically bicycles are looked as vehicles according to most state laws, and as a vehicle you have to line up behind the car in front of you.


The UK doesn't require one to line up behind the car in front - is most of the US really so backwards as to require bikes (and presumably motorbikes?) to wait when cars are causing queues?


----------



## froze (15 Feb 2017)

mjr said:


> The UK doesn't require one to line up behind the car in front - is most of the US really so backwards as to require bikes (and presumably motorbikes?) to wait when cars are causing queues?


 
While it is required most states don't enforce any rules for bicycles accept cash strapped states like California. Personally I don't find line up behind a car in front as backwards, I find it safer. How's that you backcountry backward hick you scream? I've found that cutting ahead of motorists simply pisses them off, because then they have to pass you all over again which could be dangerous depending on circumstances. I've also found that by staying behind a car the driver of the car in front sees me, as does the driver behind me, thus there can be no excuses for cutting me off, or getting mad. Obviously if there is a bike lane then I can ride the lane to the front of the traffic.


----------



## mjr (15 Feb 2017)

froze said:


> I've found that cutting ahead of motorists simply pisses them off, because then they have to pass you all over again which could be dangerous depending on circumstances.


They really don't have to pass you. Also, in a lot of urban areas in England now, the average motor traffic speed is often slower than what many cyclists will do (famously below 10mph in many at peak times) so they might not be able to, depending on road layouts.



froze said:


> I've also found that by staying behind a car the driver of the car in front sees me, as does the driver behind me, thus there can be no excuses for cutting me off, or getting mad.


I've mentioned before that the driver behind often doesn't seem to see a car/van/lorry in front of them and crashes into its rear, so what hope that such people will see a cyclist? I don't feel it's safe to wait to be caught in a concertina if you can avoid it.



froze said:


> Obviously if there is a bike lane then I can ride the lane to the front of the traffic.


Why wouldn't that annoy drivers too? It seems a bit like too much faith in paint.


----------



## mustang1 (15 Feb 2017)

If I sense lights are not gonna change soon and it's safe to do so, then yes, nearly always. But if I think lights will change to green, then I just stay back. I don't have a problem staying back.


----------



## KnackeredBike (15 Feb 2017)

david k said:


> Most of the cycling I do is on routes avoiding heavy traffic and lots of lights.
> 
> When I am in that situation I look for a safe spot rather than one up the queue.
> 
> Sometimes the safe spot is at the front if the road is wide enough for all to pass safely, sometimes it's where a car has left more space, if on a thin road I usually just stay where I am, I find it safer


If I filter to part way through the queue I always stop directly in front of the driver rather than on the left hand side so even the doziest driver can't miss me.

Around here ASLs are few and far between so I stay back unless I won't be able to get through on the first green cycle. There are enough anti-cyclist nutters that will do a punishment overtake because you didn't "wait your turn" no matter how idiotic that attitude may be.


----------



## Milzy (15 Feb 2017)

ianrauk said:


> Some times I do, sometimes I don't. On my commute I pretty much know the sequence of any of the lights at junctions. If I know it's going to be a long wait I may get to the front, especially if there's an ASL, sometimes if there's not. If I know I won't have time then I will hang back. If I'm in the way of any car that want's to overtake and they can't overtake then that's tough. They just have to wait.


^^^^^^^^^^^ This for me.


----------



## Vantage (16 Feb 2017)

I generally take the view that if I don't jump the queue at the cash machine then I don't jump the queue for the lights.
Unless I'm in a motorist hating mood that day of course in which case, f**k 'em.


----------



## froze (17 Feb 2017)

mjr said:


> They really don't have to pass you. Also, in a lot of urban areas in England now, the average motor traffic speed is often slower than what many cyclists will do (famously below 10mph in many at peak times) so they might not be able to, depending on road layouts.
> 
> 
> I've mentioned before that the driver behind often doesn't seem to see a car/van/lorry in front of them and crashes into its rear, so what hope that such people will see a cyclist? I don't feel it's safe to wait to be caught in a concertina if you can avoid it.
> ...



In America the car scene is obviously very different than in England, in America the motorist has the mentality that they come first, and they will pass cyclist (and each other) no matter what because a cyclist is impeding their ability to get somewhere, and if that means they'll have to put you in danger they'll do it. Our urban streets, or streets with houses and families, the speed limit is 30 mph, which I think is too fast, motorists often do 40 to 45, main urban streets are 35 to 40 with again people going at least 10 over. So it's highly unlikely that a cyclist is going to be challenging our motorist for speed. The only time a cyclist would be able to challenge the speed of a car is in heavy traffic times.

Even with all the aggressiveness on our street not a lot of rear end accidents happen, not saying they never happen but it's not as common as someone running a stop and getting hit by the other car. If I'm in a line of traffic everyone knows that people are stopping, and I always take a look behind me to make sure the driver is aware of my presence. 

Bike lanes painted on a street is only useful when cyclists are on the lane, then motorists tend to pay attention to it more, but just like riding on the street without a painted lane you still have to be aware and careful, I don't deny that, doing anything counter to that and someday it could catch up with you. It's a lot like buying a car that can self drive, even though the instructions say to be paying attention, people will get laxed and will fail to pay attention then an accident will happen, so likewise even if you're in a dedicated bike lane you still have to pay attention.


----------



## ufkacbln (17 Feb 2017)

.... ish 


Local knowledge and experience

For instance there is a set of lights near where I work. With a Cycle Path on the inside (I still consider this filtering) 

If lights are red and Traffic is coming straight across the Junction then filtering is absolutely safe and fine
If Lights are red and Traffic is turning right across my path, then there is about 40 seconds (and reducing) to filter safely
If this time is running close then filtering becomes dodgy as most traffic turns right across the path, so I assume the lights will change, tuck into the traffic stream (out of the cycle path) and continue across the junction, pulling back into the cycle path when across the junction


----------



## chriscross1966 (17 Feb 2017)

nickyboy said:


> Sounds like I'm similar to most here. If it's a short queue and it looks like I will get through on the next green I just wait in line. If the queue is longer I will filter. Usually up the outside but no hard and fast rule. Really depends how wide the road is and where the filtering space is
> 
> What I wouldn't do though is filter all the way to the front by going up the inside if there is a left turn at the lights. I'd worry about being caught a few cars from the front when the lights change and get left hooked. In those circumstances I'll hold back a few cars and look to take a central position when the traffic starts moving



This is me I think, filter into the ASL if there is one, if there isn't and there's a left turn I will sit in front of a car near the front so it can see me and definitely not get alongside a van or lorry.... I set the mirrors on my van to avoid left-hooking but a lot of folks don't... Thankfully most of these issues are in Oxford, which has near stationary traffic a lot of the time, in Swindon we have a lot better cycling infrastructure so I'm rarely playing in traffic in the same way.


----------



## mjr (17 Feb 2017)

froze said:


> In America the car scene is obviously very different than in England, in America the motorist has the mentality that they come first, and they will pass cyclist (and each other) no matter what because a cyclist is impeding their ability to get somewhere, and if that means they'll have to put you in danger they'll do it. Our urban streets, or streets with houses and families, the speed limit is 30 mph, which I think is too fast, motorists often do 40 to 45, main urban streets are 35 to 40 with again people going at least 10 over. So it's highly unlikely that a cyclist is going to be challenging our motorist for speed. The only time a cyclist would be able to challenge the speed of a car is in heavy traffic times.


I'm not sure the mentality is any different - motorists with a "Must Get In Front" attitude are often mentioned, even to the point where they'll speed to overtake a cyclist and then crash into a car in front that they hadn't noticed - and the 30mph speed limit is still general here (although "20's Plenty" is spreading), but I think the big difference may be that "heavy traffic times" are more common here, so only a few urban motorists are physically able to pass a cyclist between each set of lights and it's a low probability that one of those will be a punishment-passing nobber.


----------



## KnackeredBike (28 Feb 2017)

mjr said:


> I'm not sure the mentality is any different - motorists with a "Must Get In Front" attitude are often mentioned, even to the point where they'll speed to overtake a cyclist and then crash into a car in front that they hadn't noticed - and the 30mph speed limit is still general here (although "20's Plenty" is spreading), but I think the big difference may be that "heavy traffic times" are more common here, so only a few urban motorists are physically able to pass a cyclist between each set of lights and it's a low probability that one of those will be a punishment-passing nobber.


Difference as well is that in most of America the roads are much wider to allow more distance when passing. Sometimes terrifyingly wide of course.

Here especially many rural roads are wide enough for a cyclist, fag paper and car to all pass at a molecular level when there is oncoming traffic and a minority of drivers seem to think that is plenty of space.

Cycling on rural roads in America when I was there was bliss. Loads of space, much fewer cars, better weather.


----------



## Turknhof (1 Mar 2017)

Hi, personally I'm up the front every time, right on the light waiting for green, lol, not everones cup of tea maybe, probably depends on bike skills/confidence etc but I will never wait my turn behind a bunch of cars if there's a way forward, otherwise I may as well have brought my four wheel ride instead of the two.


----------



## summerdays (2 Mar 2017)

Earlier this week I was filtering past a long queue to the lights, not aiming to get to the front, just aiming to reduce the number of light sequences I was going to wait before the lights and Mr gold BMW didn't like it, so moved right next to the pavement in a deliberate way (parked cars ahead so cars normally don't along that section). I took great pleasure in passing the other side, then turning giving him the thumbs up and HUGE grin before deciding to disappear into the distance to make my point!


----------



## 3narf (2 Mar 2017)

If one or two cars overtake me sensibly a decent distance before the lights, I'll probably wait in the queue.

When a convoy of idiots overtake just before a red light, because they've barely registered my existence in their rush to be at the lights so they can stop, I overtake and go right to the front.

My policy is to always be aggressive and visible at traffic lights.


----------

