# Friend insanely close passed by team sky coach



## Big Dave laaa (7 Sep 2016)

I've just spoken to a friend of mine who was on a different part of the TOB route today. On his way back to work he was passed close and at speed by a team sky coach. I have just seen his go pro from it and it's scary. Another rider further down also says the same happened to him. I'm trying to get him to at least contact sky but he's reluctant to take it further. Surely a driver for a pro cycling team should be bike aware.


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## palinurus (7 Sep 2016)

Big Dave laaa said:


> Surely a driver for a pro cycling team should be bike aware.



Don't bet on it. I got a lift to a race with someone from British Cycling in one of their liveried cars. Worst driver I've ever taken a lift from, my foot kept going for the imaginary brake.


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## keithmac (7 Sep 2016)

Put it on YouTube and let the people decide..


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## Big Dave laaa (7 Sep 2016)

My mates not one to make a fuss and if he was shaken by it then it must have been close. I'll put the video up if he'll let me.


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## fossyant (7 Sep 2016)

It would be fun to email it to Team Sky !


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## Big Dave laaa (7 Sep 2016)

That's what he's done. Just messaged me now. Doesn't want to put it on youtube just wants them to acknowledge that the driver is a prat.


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## fossyant (7 Sep 2016)

Team Dogma as compensation ?


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## Big Dave laaa (7 Sep 2016)

fossyant said:


> Team Dogma as compensation ?



That would be typical of his luck


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## Tin Pot (7 Sep 2016)

Big Dave laaa said:


> That's what he's done. Just messaged me now. Doesn't want to put it on youtube just wants them to acknowledge that the driver is a prat.



...Team Sky.

...Acknowledge guilt.

...Apology.

I think I see a flaw in your mates plan.


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## Big Dave laaa (7 Sep 2016)

Well he's as straight as a die. He'll give them a chance first of all but if he doesn't get any joy he will probably change tack. It's a good job he's mellowed with age that's all I can say


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## steve50 (7 Sep 2016)

Big Dave laaa said:


> I've just spoken to a friend of mine who was on a different part of the TOB route today. On his way back to work he was passed close and at speed by a team sky coach. I have just seen his go pro from it and it's scary. Another rider further down also says the same happened to him. I'm trying to get him to at least contact sky but he's reluctant to take it further.* Surely a driver for a pro cycling team should be bike aware.*



The driver is paid to drive the bus end of!
The fact that he is driving a sky team bus will mean nothing to him, he is just a bus driver and probably takes the the same approach to cyclists as a lot of other drivers who couldn't care less that there is a human being riding the bike!!


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## Brandane (8 Sep 2016)

steve50 said:


> The driver is paid to drive the bus end of!
> The fact that he is driving a sky team bus will mean nothing to him, he is just a bus driver and probably takes the the same approach to cyclists as a lot of other drivers who couldn't care less that there is a human being riding the bike!!


Yep; probably some guy supplied by an agency for a few days driving work during the ToB, and getting paid about £8 per hour for his trouble.


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## ChrisV (8 Sep 2016)

Ha ha I thought it was the guy who trained Sky riders (coach) on a bike at first, then that he must have been in a car, before it finally clicked it was a bus!!!!!

Gee whiz


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## Drago (8 Sep 2016)

Ok, lets pretend they acknowledge their driver is a prat.

Then what?


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## Starchivore (8 Sep 2016)

They've surely got to offer a big apology (and maybe some sort of nice little gift to say sorry...?) If not he should definitely put it on Youtube, it isn't on to put him in danger and they should know better


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## Spinney (8 Sep 2016)

Sky also have a link with British Cycling with a remit for encouraging people to get on their bikes. They should apologise properly and use it as a way of publicising how coach/lorry drivers _should_ behave around cyclists. They could turn a bit of bad driving into a positive outcome if they put their minds to it.


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## Brandane (8 Sep 2016)

Drago said:


> Ok, lets pretend they acknowledge their driver is a prat.
> 
> Then what?


Team Sky tell the agency who supplied the driver, some admin clerk at the agency apologises but privately they say "yes but we pay peanuts so we get monkeys", and continue to farm him out to other customers because they can't get anyone else to do the work for the pay on offer; that's the way things work in the commercial driving world of modern Britain. Applies to HGV drivers too (although there are the occasional good ones too; like people on pensions who don't want to work the generally accepted full time hours of 60+ hours per week. Who could that be then? ).


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## snorri (8 Sep 2016)

Meantime the company name is repeated again and again.
There's no such thing as bad publicity in the big bad world of S**


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## the_mikey (8 Sep 2016)

Big Dave laaa said:


> I've just spoken to a friend of mine who was on a different part of the TOB route today. On his way back to work he was passed close and at speed by a team sky coach. I have just seen his go pro from it and it's scary. Another rider further down also says the same happened to him. I'm trying to get him to at least contact sky but he's reluctant to take it further. Surely a driver for a pro cycling team should be bike aware.




I've seen some of the worst driving, poor lane discipline, use of a mobile at the wheel, from someone in a British Cycling liveried car, complete with a bike on the roof rack, in south Wales.


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## glasgowcyclist (8 Sep 2016)

There's a short clip of the video at https://twitter.com/AndyRolfe65/media

Shows close pass and squeeze at speed, with HGV (petrol tanker?) coming the other way having to pull left and stop to avoid collision. Definitely one for the police.

GC


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## Bimble (8 Sep 2016)

glasgowcyclist said:


> There's a short clip of the video at https://twitter.com/AndyRolfe65/media


I think I'd use the f-word too!  The tanker driver on the other side of the road having to take action too seems to indicate that the coach was coming past / through regardless. I hope Sky _at the very least_ apologise and make sure they don't hire that driver ever again.


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## ianrauk (8 Sep 2016)

glasgowcyclist said:


> There's a short clip of the video at https://twitter.com/AndyRolfe65/media
> 
> Shows close pass and squeeze at speed, with HGV (petrol tanker?) coming the other way having to pull left and stop to avoid collision. Definitely one for the police.
> 
> GC




Wow that's a nasty pass. Pure impatient nobbery. 
However, on a road like that I would have been further over to the right as to not invite an overtake from nobbers like that coach driver.


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## ianrauk (8 Sep 2016)

Didn't take Road CC long to feature it.


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## Drago (8 Sep 2016)

Starchivore said:


> They've surely got to offer a big apology (and maybe some sort of nice little gift to say sorry...?) If not he should definitely put it on Youtube, it isn't on to put him in danger and they should know better



So they won't just dispatch the driver back to the agency pool from whence he came, they'll send the OP a free bike and a Team Sky contract? Best that'll happen is they say "sorry, the driver was a nob, he's gone now."


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## Big Dave laaa (8 Sep 2016)

All he wants is for them to acknowledge that the driver of their official team bus is a nobber.


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## Drago (8 Sep 2016)

He probably is, and what changes if they respond, "yeah, he is a bit of a tool"?


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## Big Dave laaa (8 Sep 2016)

Nothing changes. Nobbers will continue to be nobbers and cyclists will continue to be run down and killed whilst out enjoying the past time they love.
It's a principle issue now. Andy is very big on principles


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## jefmcg (8 Sep 2016)

ChrisV said:


> Ha ha I thought it was the guy who trained Sky riders (coach) on a bike at first, then that he must have been in a car, before it finally clicked it was a bus!!!!!
> 
> Gee whiz


I read down the thread to your post ... then back to the top to read the original, and then said "oh! not _coach _but _coach!_" So I took longer than you.


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## Arjimlad (8 Sep 2016)

What an awful piece of dangerous close pass driving.


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## Brandane (8 Sep 2016)

A sensible course of action for the victim here would be to send that clip to his local Traffic Commissioner. TC's have much wider powers than the Police (who might be reluctant to take any positive action anyway) to deal with commercial drivers, as they don't have to rely on the same burdens of proof required by a court.
A TC can "invite" this driver in for a "chat", and suspend his licence until he sees the error of his ways. He would be left in no uncertain terms as to the consequences of any further incidents too. Might be worth a go?


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## Bimble (8 Sep 2016)

Drago said:


> He probably is, and what changes if they respond, "yeah, he is a bit of a tool"?


Hopefully they'll avoid hiring such _tools_ in the future. Hopefully they won't have to manage a media meltdown when their cycling team coach driver kills a cyclist, because they've taken this report seriously?

You're not suggesting the guy should have laughed it off and done nothing are you?


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## winjim (8 Sep 2016)

jefmcg said:


> I read down the thread to your post ... then back to the top to read the original, and then said "oh! not _coach _but _coach!_" So I took longer than you.


It's _coach_ as in _train_, rather than _coach_ as in _train_.


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## CanucksTraveller (8 Sep 2016)

To play Devil's Advocate to some extent, I don't think it started out as an intentionally close pass; It looks like the bus had started out the manoeuvre at a decent distance from the rider, then cut in way too soon as a result of the tanker come over the hill. It doesn't make it okay of course, but then I guess it can't be that easy to drive a massive battleship like that on what is a very narrow country road. 

I've often looked at these buses and pondered just how unsuitable they are for narrow roads.


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## Bimble (8 Sep 2016)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/37309613 - Team Sky apologise to amateur cyclist almost knocked over by bus


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## Phaeton (8 Sep 2016)

User13710 said:


> I'd like to think that the people on the coach remonstrated with the driver at the time, what with them being cyclists. But if they didn't then, they will in future won't they? Are people seriously saying there's nothing to see here and it wasn't worth mentioning?


It was probably empty, going from the start point to the finish point, 

Personally I would have chased after him & pulled up at the next set of lights & had a word, well I would have in my dreams anyway


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## Starchivore (8 Sep 2016)

Bimble said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/37309613 - Team Sky apologise to amateur cyclist almost knocked over by bus



It's impressive how fast stories can move with the internet.


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## deptfordmarmoset (8 Sep 2016)

Bimble said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/37309613 - Team Sky apologise to amateur cyclist almost knocked over by bus


Cycling Weekly also show the pass plus the apology - http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news...close-pass-incident-involving-team-bus-282902


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## jefmcg (8 Sep 2016)

winjim said:


> It's _coach_ as in _train_, rather than _coach_ as in _train_.


That's so clever it makes me angry


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## Brandane (8 Sep 2016)

CanucksTraveller said:


> I've often looked at these buses and pondered just how unsuitable they are for narrow roads.


I drive artics, sometimes on narrow roads. Golden rule #1 is the same as it is for everyone else - don't overtake unless you are absolutely sure you have enough time to complete the manoeuvre in the space you can see to be clear ahead (and that includes allowing for something fast moving appearing round a bend in the opposite direction. What would have happened if that tanker had been a motorbike heading towards the bus at illegal speeds?).


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## CanucksTraveller (8 Sep 2016)

Brandane said:


> I drive artics, sometimes on narrow roads. Golden rule #1 is the same as it is for everyone else - don't overtake unless you are absolutely sure you have enough time to complete the manoeuvre in the space you can see to be clear ahead (and that includes allowing for something fast moving appearing round a bend in the opposite direction. What would have happened if that tanker had been a motorbike heading towards the bus at illegal speeds?).



Yes you're absolutely right, and I don't condone it. It was really poor driving, but at least it didn't start out as an intentionally close pass, which some do.


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## glasgowcyclist (8 Sep 2016)

CanucksTraveller said:


> ... but at least it didn't start out as an intentionally close pass, which some do.



To me the intention is irrelevant, either way it's still putting me at an unacceptable risk. 

Giving these drivers any sort of credit for not actually meaning to do harm isn't helping road safety and is regularly used in court after fatalities in this type of scenario. "My client did not set out to kill anyone that day" blah, blah ... and a sympathetic jury thinks 'that's fair enough, could've done that myself', so another dick keeps his licence.

I'll stop now as I feel a full -blown rant coming on...

GC


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## Big Dave laaa (8 Sep 2016)

He may not have setout to close pass but chose to squeeze the rider into the kerb rather than slowing and letting the tanker pass. It's all escalated rather quickly. BBC and ITV have been in touch as has the SKY PR machine. Nothing will change but at least its a high profile example of what we experience day in day out.


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## keithmac (8 Sep 2016)

As said above that was terrible driving, no wonder your mate was fuming after that..


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## Guyincognito76 (8 Sep 2016)

Don't pass if you can't see the road is clear in front -there's no other argument.

The tanker only 'causes' him to cut in as he was overtaking unsighted. Drivers will always, perhaps instinctively take out the cyclist rather than crash into something even if that something is a bollard and not a tanker.

Normally when you watch these 'close pass' videos you either can't appreciate the closeness or the uploader is a little too sensative -but man, that is a close pass!


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## Big Dave laaa (8 Sep 2016)

Andy isn't one to make a fuss and anyone who uses a cam will know it's always closer than it looks. He's on 5live tomorrow with Nicky Cambell  hopefully he'll get a message out


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## Dayvo (8 Sep 2016)

Good, he got an apology from Sky.

Every cloud's got a silver lining.


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## Big Dave laaa (8 Sep 2016)

The PR people are eager to talk to him but he was too busy  they're going to try again tomorrow


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## jefmcg (8 Sep 2016)

This is a good use of a camera. So many close incidents deteriorate like that ? Vine one into a squabble. This is a good clean record of a close pass that is clearly too close because of how big it is. The driver is anonymous, but should know better. The people responsible (Sky) have a vested interest in admitting it was a mistake.

So many drivers don't think twice about passing that close, so it''s good to have something like this that maybe will make them think.


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## deptfordmarmoset (8 Sep 2016)

@Brandane 's point earlier on about never starting a manoeuvre unless you know you can finish it should be the message here. To everyone. I do most of my cycling alone but just about every time I go out on a group ride there's at least one driver who hasn't figured that simple rule out.


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## CanucksTraveller (8 Sep 2016)

User said:


> Poor Driving-splaining Alert!



Sorry, you'll have to translate that for me, I'm not sure what point you're making.


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## CanucksTraveller (9 Sep 2016)

No seriously, don't be coy, make your point clear. I haven't defended the standard of driving, so I'm honestly wondering what your issue is with me. 



User said:


> _Quelle surprise. _


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## Seevio (9 Sep 2016)

CanucksTraveller said:


> Sorry, you'll have to translate that for me, I'm not sure what point you're making.


My guess is that what @User is saying is that no matter how good your intentions are, no matter how good you start your manoeuvre, if you can't complete it safely, it is a case of bad driving and that saying it started ok is just an excuse.


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## srw (9 Sep 2016)

CanucksTraveller said:


> No seriously, don't be coy, make your point clear. I haven't defended the standard of driving, so I'm honestly wondering what your issue is with me.


It's a coinage along the lines of "mansplaining", but without the charm or clear meaning of that word.


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## MarquisMatsugae (9 Sep 2016)

Drago said:


> Ok, lets pretend they acknowledge their driver is a prat.
> 
> Then what?


Death by Hanging surely ?


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## MarquisMatsugae (9 Sep 2016)

Throw the book at the driver.
War and Peace preferably.


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## graham bowers (9 Sep 2016)

Is cycle awareness a mandatory part of HGV / bus training? If not then that is what should be campaigned for.


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## Dogtrousers (9 Sep 2016)

I don't buy this excuse that the coach driver was somehow forced into it by the miraculous and unforeseeable appearance of the tanker. Overtaking a simple manoevre: No clear road - don't do it. The driver took a conscious decision to put the cyclist at risk when starting the blind overtake.


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## Phaeton (9 Sep 2016)

CanucksTraveller said:


> No seriously, don't be coy, make your point clear. I haven't defended the standard of driving, so I'm honestly wondering what your issue is with me.


Good luck this that one


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## glasgowcyclist (9 Sep 2016)

[QUOTE 4458269, member: 45"]What's a bloody amateur cyclist???[/QUOTE]

Someone who's nearly killed by an amateur driver?

GC


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## Phaeton (9 Sep 2016)

[QUOTE 4458269, member: 45"]What's a bloody amateur cyclist???[/QUOTE]
Is he professional?


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## Dogtrousers (9 Sep 2016)

[QUOTE 4458269, member: 45"]What's a bloody amateur cyclist???[/QUOTE]
Well obviously it's someone who does that cycle sport racing thing but isn't good enough to be paid for it.

I might have to ignore this thread. It just gets more and more annoying. I'm off to look at some pictures of kittens.


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## Phaeton (9 Sep 2016)

When I was a Taxi driver, or when I was a LGV driver, or for that matter a PCV driver, then I was professional as I used to get paid to drive, now I'm an amateur as nobody pays me. I don't think it's unrealistic to add the word amateur in when they are recounting a story about a professional cycling team, it distinguishes that the unfortunate rider was not part of a race.


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## Phaeton (9 Sep 2016)

[QUOTE 4458294, member: 45"]No, you're not now an amateur driver. That's a ridiculous suggestion.
It's completely the wrong terminology. It says that cycling is a sport.
A bicycle is a mode of transport which some people happen to be paid to race on.
A bike is a normal part of everyday life. It's not an item of sports equipment that people use for practical activities. Putting it in those terms sends the message that it's not the machine that it is.[/QUOTE]
Seriously! it's too early to have an argument over such a trivial thing, if you're that annoyed send an email, or take a deep breath & get over it & move on.


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## Brandane (9 Sep 2016)

graham bowers said:


> Is cycle awareness a mandatory part of HGV / bus training? If not then that is what should be campaigned for.


I have the DSA driving manual for HGV's in front of me, albeit from 2003 but I doubt if much has changed.
According to the index, cyclists are referred to on 12 different pages, and a quick read through those pages shows that it does explain the need for proper observations (especially on the driver's nearside), effects of wind draught caused by large vehicles, GIVING ADEQUATE SPACE, etc.. There are random questions in the theory test referring to cyclists too. 
I have to say that on the whole, I find drivers of large vehicles to be MUCH more aware of cyclists than your average plonker in a car. Obviously there are going to be the odd exceptions as in this case.


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## Brandane (9 Sep 2016)

[QUOTE 4458294, member: 45"]No, you're not now an amateur driver. That's a ridiculous suggestion.[/QUOTE]
This whole business of "professional driver" is a red herring IMHO.. It shouldn't make any difference. If you have passed the DSA test of competence to drive a particular class of vehicle, then you should be able to drive that vehicle properly whether or not you're getting paid to do so!

I have passed tests for motorbikes, cars, class 2 HGV's, and class 1 HGV's (in that order). The day after passing my class 1 HGV test I was qualified to be out on the road driving a 44 tonne artic. Does that give me some sort of magical abilities? I think NOT! Even now, more than 10 years after passing my test, I only drive the things occasionally because TBH it's a crap job and crap money. So I certainly don't look upon myself as "professional", but I do like to think that I am "competent".


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## Spinney (9 Sep 2016)

Brandane said:


> I have the DSA driving manual for HGV's in front of me, albeit from 2003 but I doubt if much has changed.
> According to the index, cyclists are referred to on 12 different pages, and a quick read through those pages shows that it does explain the need for proper observations (especially on the driver's nearside), effects of wind draught caused by large vehicles, GIVING ADEQUATE SPACE, etc.. There are random questions in the theory test referring to cyclists too.
> I have to say that on the whole, I find drivers of large vehicles to be MUCH more aware of cyclists than your average plonker in a car. Obviously there are going to be the odd exceptions as in this case.


In my bimbling around the local roads, some of which are country lanes and some, although B roads, are lorry routes to/from quarries and 'cutting the M4/M5 corner', the close passes that have me making rude gestures or swearing are almost all from cars, not lorries. Indeed, I am often inclined* to remember the time, place, and name on a lorry and email a thank-you for an extremely courteous pass - the hanging back until clear having been done at a comfortable distance, the driver using all of the other side of the road, etc, etc. 

*although by the time I get home I've usually forgotten!


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## Phaeton (9 Sep 2016)

[QUOTE 4458315, member: 45"]I'm not that annoyed.[/QUOTE]
Are you sure? It sounds like you are, is it really worth it?


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## Milkfloat (9 Sep 2016)

[QUOTE 4458294, member: 45"]No, you're not now an amateur driver. That's a ridiculous suggestion.

It's completely the wrong terminology. It says that cycling is a sport.

A bicycle is a mode of transport which some people happen to be paid to race on.

A bike is a normal part of everyday life. It's not an item of sports equipment that people use for practical activities. Putting it in those terms sends the message that it's not the machine that it is.[/QUOTE]

In this case the cyclist is a 'sport cyclist'. He wears lycra, rides a sports road bike and follows the racing. Of course there are many forms of cycling, but in this instance I think it is fair to call him an amature cyclist.

*am·a·teur*
(ăm′ə-tûr′, -tər, -cho͝or′, -chər, -tyo͝or′)
_n._
*1. *One who engages in an art, science, study, or athletic activity as a pastime rather than as a profession.


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## glasgowcyclist (9 Sep 2016)

Driving a bus, a taxi, or a lorry only means you've passed a test of basic competence to handle that vehicle safely, it's not an award of an advanced driving qualification.

These people are commercial drivers and should be referred to as such. Calling them professional has the danger of bestowing on them, as most of them appear to believe, a higher status. This is wholly undeserved.

They're no more a professional driver than my local pizza delivery boy on his moped, or some of the cycling courier nutters I see in the city...


GC


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## Dogtrousers (9 Sep 2016)

[QUOTE 4458315, member: 45"]I'm not that annoyed. [/QUOTE]
Just for the record, I _*am *_that annoyed.


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## Dogtrousers (9 Sep 2016)

Milkfloat said:


> _*In this case the cyclist is a 'sport cyclist'.*_ He wears lycra, rides a sports road bike and follows the racing. Of course there are many forms of cycling, but in this instance I think it is fair to call him an amature cyclist.


a) How do you know. All we know is that he has a camera. Nothing else.
b) Occam's razor: How the hell is that even relevant?
c) Amateur, not amature


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## Tim Hall (9 Sep 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> a) How do you know. All we know is that he has a camera. Nothing else.
> b) Occam's razor: How the hell is that even relevant?
> c) Amateur, not amature


If he had one of those hidden electric motors he could be an armature cyclist.


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## Milkfloat (9 Sep 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> a) How do you know. All we know is that he has a camera. Nothing else.
> b) Occam's razor: How the hell is that even relevant?
> c) Amateur, not amature




Look at his twitter feed.


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## Dogtrousers (9 Sep 2016)

Milkfloat said:


> Look at his twitter feed.


Why?

Just because he owns a pair of lycra shorts and watches a bit of racing doesn't make him an "amateur cyclist". Jeez, even I qualify for that. Not that I ever wear lycra shorts as there are no pockets for my chewing gum.

I am Mr Angry today. I need kittens.


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## Brandane (9 Sep 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> c) Amateur, not amature


Don't know about that one; I consider myself to be a mature cyclist!


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## Dogtrousers (9 Sep 2016)

Tim Hall said:


> If he had one of those hidden electric motors he could be an armature cyclist.


To ensure that there is no current overload, it may even have an ammeter

Puns are nearly as good as pictures of kittens for calming me down.


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## Big Dave laaa (9 Sep 2016)

Just to try and balance the argument, when the incident occurred he was on his way to work, so technically commuting. He had been to watch the tour so technically a cycling enthusiasts. He's a cyclist same as most of us on here and we deserve some respect on the road.


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## EnPassant (9 Sep 2016)

Facebook, grrr, nothing but pictures of kittens all day. Grinds my gears so it does. Have to avoid it first thing or I'm Mr Angry for the rest of the day.

Incidentally, IME and completely unscientifically, I find that the trade of the HGV seems to make a difference.
Construction vehicles in general and skip lorries in particular seem to make closer and more aggressive passes than many another HGV when I'm on the road. I often wonder if its either the nature of the business they are in, getting dirty all the time, or the pressures those industries put on them.


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## Brandane (9 Sep 2016)

EnPassant said:


> Incidentally, IME and completely unscientifically, I find that the trade of the HGV seems to make a difference.
> Construction vehicles in general and skip lorries in particular seem to make closer and more aggressive passes than many another HGV when I'm on the road. I often wonder if its either the nature of the business they are in, getting dirty all the time, or the pressures those industries put on them.


It has been said somewhere that the likes of tipper drivers get paid by the load, rather than hourly like most drivers. Therefore they always seem to be in a bit more of a hurry than others. I don't know whether that is correct or not.


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## deptfordmarmoset (9 Sep 2016)

In the great amateur/professional controversy, is it worth reminding people of the origins of the word amateur? Its literal meaning is lover and this sense still lingers in French. It would be pushing it to say that one can be a professional and an amateur at the same time in English but I wish we could; it would be nice to recover some of that original meaning.


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## deptfordmarmoset (9 Sep 2016)

Brandane said:


> It has been said somewhere that the likes of tipper drivers get paid by the load, rather than hourly like most drivers. Therefore they always seem to be in a bit more of a hurry than others. I don't know whether that is correct or not.


London KSI stats (and personal observation) appear to bear this out.


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## EnPassant (9 Sep 2016)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> In the great amateur/professional controversy, is it worth reminding people of the origins of the word *amateur? Its literal meaning is lover *and this sense still lingers in French. It would be pushing it to say that one can be a professional and an amateur at the same time in English but I wish we could; it would be nice to recover some of that original meaning.


Thus making a call girl a professional amateur?


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## Bimble (9 Sep 2016)

Wow ... all those posts about a bit of lazy journalism! No need for everyone here to get wound up by it, comment on the BBC video page or email the Beeb's sports editor if you think they need telling. For what it is worth, I expect it was a simple and unthinking attempt to distinguish the everyday cyclist from the paid professional cyclist that might be part of the Sky cycling pro team - considering this happened outside of the closed roads of a race and all.

Not that it is a positive, because the driving was inexcusable, but being a Sky cycling team coach has at least created a much bigger opportunity for a fellow cyclist like us to get some national coverage of an issue that many of us come up against regularly. I hope it does some good.


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## deptfordmarmoset (9 Sep 2016)

EnPassant said:


> Thus making a call girl a professional amateur?


If she loves her work, why not?


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## winjim (9 Sep 2016)

jefmcg said:


> That's so clever it makes me angry


Imma (mis)quote you on that.


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## david k (9 Sep 2016)

Are all non professionals amateurs?


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## Bimble (9 Sep 2016)

david k said:


> Are all non professionals amateurs?


Perhaps not - a quick Google and it seems to be restricted to gardeners, photographers, astonomers, radio enthusiasts and mycologists:

http://www.amateurgardening.com/
http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/
http://amateurastronomy.com/
http://www.amateurradio.eu/gm/amateur-radio-magazines.htm
http://www.fungimag.com/ (amateur _and _professional mycologists)


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## Bimble (9 Sep 2016)

Just to add, I do think the word is superfluous in the BBC write-up.


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## Dayvo (9 Sep 2016)

Brandane said:


> Don't know about that one; I consider myself to be a mature cyclist!



Someone called me a manure cyclist. Trying to work out if he meant I was good for his vegetables or not.


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## EnPassant (9 Sep 2016)

Dayvo said:


> Someone called me a manure cyclist. Trying to work out if he meant I was good for his vegetables or not.


Man ure a cyclist?

(meh, come on sunshine my puns are dredging the bottom of the canal now)


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## Dogtrousers (9 Sep 2016)

david k said:


> Are all non professionals amateurs?


Are all non-amateurs professionals?
That was not the case in the past, when "Professionals" were limited to the medicine and law (I think - maybe clergy too). The idea of a professional engineer was new in the 19th century[1]. Even now, it implies more than just being paid - but a particular degree of competence and/or membership of a professional body. Like CI5

[1] Reference: A program I saw on telly once. I forget which one.


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## winjim (9 Sep 2016)

I'm a professional chemist. All it means is that I have to pay subs to the RSC and I can sign passport photos.


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## Dogtrousers (9 Sep 2016)

winjim said:


> I'm a professional chemist. All it means is that I have to pay subs to the* RSC* and I can sign passport photos.


The Royal Shakespeare Company?


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## benb (9 Sep 2016)

winjim said:


> I'm a professional chemist. All it means is that I have to pay subs to the RSC and I can sign passport photos.



I don't see what a theatre company has to do with chemists.

ETA: TMN to @Dogtrousers


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## jefmcg (9 Sep 2016)

winjim said:


> I'm a professional chemist. All it means is that I have to pay subs to the *RSC* and I can sign passport photos.


Royal Shakespeare Company?

Ugh! 3rd!


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## winjim (9 Sep 2016)

Keep up at the back!


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## jefmcg (9 Sep 2016)

It's a headline. Racing riders are hit by team vehicles and camera cars with disturbing regularity. The headline writer was looking for a single word to indicate the incident did not take place during a race nor involved one of the team riders. Hence "amateur". Seems a perfectly cromulent word in the context.


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## Racing roadkill (9 Sep 2016)

Sue them, it's the only way.


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## Phaeton (9 Sep 2016)

benb said:


> I don't see what a theatre company has to do with chemists.


I don't know, the amount of powder some of these actors are alleged to use.


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## Dayvo (9 Sep 2016)

Racing roadkill said:


> Sue them, it's the only way.



As much as you can: the Sky's the limit.


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## deptfordmarmoset (9 Sep 2016)

jefmcg said:


> It's a headline. Racing riders are hit by team vehicles and camera cars with disturbing regularity. The headline writer was looking for a single word to indicate the incident did not take place during a race nor involved one of the team riders. Hence "amateur". Seems a perfectly *cromulent* word in the context.


It's got to be a cyclechat first!


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## winjim (9 Sep 2016)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> It's got to be a cyclechat first!


Nope. The word _cromulent_ is itself perfectly cromulent.


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## Scoosh (9 Sep 2016)

Not being a follower of the Simpsons , I had to look up that one. 

It's brilliant and definitely to be remembered and used ...


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## Dogtrousers (9 Sep 2016)

I too had to look it up. In fact, I'm still trying.


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## jefmcg (9 Sep 2016)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> It's got to be a cyclechat first!


Thanks for the embiggening, but it's not. It's not even the first time I've used it.

First time seems to be back in '12, to @Rezillo https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/bso-superstars.115756/#post-2105653


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## winjim (9 Sep 2016)

To be honest, I'm not entirely sure the word _amateur_ could be described as _cromulent_ in that context. It is a cromulent word, and it is possibly _appropriate_ in that context, but I do not understand _cromulent_ and _appropriate_ to be synonyms.


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## glasgowcyclist (9 Sep 2016)

Getting back on topic...

This probably deserves a thread all of its own but it's pertinent to this one and very timely.
An unbelievable blog from West Midlands Police.

I'll let you read it (longish) and enjoy it yourselves. I was gobsmacked.

GC


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## snorri (9 Sep 2016)

User said:


> What's a bloody amateur cyclist???


It's obvious the journalist meant _real_ cyclist but needed the extra key strokes to make up his daily quota.


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## Starchivore (9 Sep 2016)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Getting back on topic...
> 
> This probably deserves a thread all of its own but it's pertinent to this one and very timely.
> An unbelievable blog from West Midlands Police.
> ...



Quite a good blog, covered a lot and had the right tone. A bit too vague about their plans but encouraging I thought.

The best bits:

_Cyclists don’t cause us, as an organisation, problems, that’s because they aren’t causing our communities problems, they aren’t killing nearly 100 people on our regions roads as mechanically propelled vehicles currently do. Yes we do get complaints of the “nuisance” variety, pavement cycling, some anti-social behaviour (usually yobs on bikes rather than “cyclists”), red light running etc. but you get the idea, most peoples interpretation of “1st world problems” or the “modern day blues”, nothing that’s a priority for a force like our own in a modern day society. Bad cycling is an “irritant” to the wider community rather than a danger, and maybe an improvement in infrastructure and policing may alieve many of the reasons that cause a very small minority of cyclists to be an “irritant”_

_.....in partnership with Birmingham City Council we have a new partnership scheme which will see a traffic officer riding the most vulnerable locations for cyclists looking to instantly act upon close passes, distracted driving and the like. The cycling traffic officer when passed too close will let the officer up the road know, who will in turn stop the motorist. Then the offender will be given a choice, prosecution or 15 minutes spent being educated as to the correct way to pass a cyclist.

It’s simple but effective, drivers are shown how far they should be from a cyclist, we have chosen the widely advocated 1.5mtr as our minimum but of course a much further distance will be needed in many circumstances depending on the vehicle type and speed. For instance if the opposite carriageway is available for an overtake and isn’t used in its entirety the driver will be pulled and shown why they should utilise all the available road room available to facilitate a safe overtake. A full sized replica road floor mat with various hazards positioned on it will give perspective and equip drivers with the knowledge needed to prevent further offences being committed.

Those who are committing any other offence as well as the “close pass” due care offence will be prosecuted for all offences, no immediate educational alternative for those who show such a low standard of driving._

_
_


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## rugby bloke (9 Sep 2016)

Sensible words in the blog, lets hope its backed up by sensible actions.


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## EnPassant (9 Sep 2016)

This:

_Many will say “make eye contact, this ensures they have seen you”, absolute rubbish this, half the time they will be looking not at you but right through you. Ignore the eyes of the driver; watch the wheels of the vehicle instead. A vehicle won’t move without the wheels moving, and you will see the wheels move far before you realise the vehicle is moving thus giving you that split second extra that to react and hopefully avoid a collision._

Was news to me, not so much the wheels which I do as well and will now do much more assiduously, but the eye contact, I've always done that and it appears I've always been wrong.


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## glasgowcyclist (9 Sep 2016)

EnPassant said:


> This:
> 
> _Many will say “make eye contact, this ensures they have seen you”, absolute rubbish this, half the time they will be looking not at you but right through you. Ignore the eyes of the driver; watch the wheels of the vehicle instead. A vehicle won’t move without the wheels moving, and you will see the wheels move far before you realise the vehicle is moving thus giving you that split second extra that to react and hopefully avoid a collision._
> 
> Was news to me, not so much the wheels which I do as well and will now do much more assiduously, but the eye contact, I've always done that and it appears I've always been wrong.




I do the eye contact thing as well, but look for recognition that they've seen me. I usually get this in the form of a look that says, "WTF are you staring at?".

GC


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## Dayvo (9 Sep 2016)

Making eye contact is a bit difficult when the vehicle is approaching you from behind.


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## Milkfloat (9 Sep 2016)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Getting back on topic...
> 
> This probably deserves a thread all of its own but it's pertinent to this one and very timely.
> An unbelievable blog from West Midlands Police.
> ...



I think this is very worthy of a new thread - perhaps even a sticky that every other police force could be directed to. Obviously words are nothing without actions, but this is a great start.


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## Bimble (9 Sep 2016)

This was refreshing to read: "Bad cycling is an “irritant” to the wider community rather than a *danger*," [my bold]. Spot on.


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## Bimble (9 Sep 2016)

glasgowcyclist said:


> This probably deserves a thread all of its own but it's pertinent to this one and very timely.
> An unbelievable blog from West Midlands Police.


Good idea - I think you should post a new thread (if you haven't already).


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## Apollonius (9 Sep 2016)

I too was amazed by the blog from West Midlands Police. I had no idea that the police understood this stuff! How does the message get to the Clarksonists though?


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## glasgowcyclist (9 Sep 2016)

Milkfloat said:


> I think this is very worthy of a new thread





Bimble said:


> Good idea - I think you should post a new thread



Done! : https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/a-welcome-approach-by-wmp-to-cycle-safety.206948/

GC


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## glasgowcyclist (9 Sep 2016)

Apollonius said:


> I too was amazed by the blog from West Midlands Police. I had no idea that the police understood this stuff! How does the message get to the Clarksonists though?




Repetition, dissemination via every method you can access. Link to it at every opportunity.


GC


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## MarquisMatsugae (9 Sep 2016)

Racing roadkill said:


> Sue them, it's the only way.


Are you in a suing mood today RR ?


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## DaveReading (10 Sep 2016)

EnPassant said:


> This:
> 
> _Many will say “make eye contact, this ensures they have seen you”, absolute rubbish this, half the time they will be looking not at you but right through you._
> 
> Was news to me, not so much the wheels which I do as well and will now do much more assiduously, but the eye contact, I've always done that and it appears I've always been wrong.



Not always, just half the time.


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## mjr (10 Sep 2016)

EnPassant said:


> Incidentally, IME and completely unscientifically, I find that the trade of the HGV seems to make a difference.


Interesting. In town, I feel most HGVs are dangerously unsafe - roll on Econic and its elk - but out of town, few are troublesome. All the local HGV firms are very good except Norbert Dentressangle.

But the commercial drivers who behave worst are those of Stagecoach buses. Twice today, I almost ended up riding a bus completely involuntarily: a CH1 at lunchtime and a number 48 this afternoon. Maybe Sky hired an ex Stagecoach driver?


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## Racing roadkill (11 Sep 2016)

mjr said:


> Interesting. In town, I feel most HGVs are dangerously unsafe - roll on Econic and its elk - but out of town, few are troublesome. All the local HGV firms are very good except Norbert Dentressangle.
> 
> But the commercial drivers who behave worst are those of Stagecoach buses. Twice today, I almost ended up riding a bus completely involuntarily: a CH1 at lunchtime and a number 48 this afternoon. Maybe Sky hired an ex Stagecoach driver?


Stagecoach bus drivers have invoked 14 complaints so far this year from me (all backed up by camera footage). They are beyond belief, not just close, but often touching. Absolute monkeys. I know 2 drivers have been shown the door, 2 more are on shaky ground. Absolute baw bags, I don't know where they find them.


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## Phaeton (11 Sep 2016)

Had 2 incidents with Stagecoach that stand out this year.

Couple of months ago went to cross the road, looked to my right & the traffic lights had just turned red, looked left stagecoach coming 100 yards away, so figured it would be safe to cross as the single decker would be slowing down, I was wrong he came barreling through I had to stop dead or I would have been, he then continued straight through the red light.

Last Tuesday sat at a set of lights (granted in car) lights went to green & as I started to move forward a stagecoach single decker came from the right, he'd had to come across a dual carriageway to get there, he must have come through red.

First incident reported as I had the route number & partial registration, 2nd no details other than time.


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## mjr (11 Sep 2016)

It's a crying shame, isn't it? Buses should be natural allies of cycling - fewer, high-passenger-capacity vehicles driven by better-trained motorists - but so many drive like pollocks


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## MarquisMatsugae (11 Sep 2016)

mjr said:


> but so many drive like pollocks


I imagine North Atlantic fish are not good drivers


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## raleighnut (11 Sep 2016)

MarquisMatsugae said:


> I imagine North Atlantic fish are not good drivers


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## Roxy641 (11 Sep 2016)

When a "Professional cyclist" retires is she/he then an "amateur" ?


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## coffeejo (11 Sep 2016)

Roxy641 said:


> When a "Professional cyclist" retires is she/he then an "amateur" ?


If one follows the train of thought above, yes, but probably more likely to be referred to as a "former pro cyclist".


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## mjr (11 Sep 2016)

MarquisMatsugae said:


> I imagine North Atlantic fish are not good drivers


Better at subverting autocorrect, though!


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## newfhouse (11 Sep 2016)

mjr said:


> It's a crying shame, isn't it? Buses should be natural allies of cycling - fewer, high-passenger-capacity vehicles driven by better-trained motorists - but so many drive like pollocks


You should spend more time in London. There's the odd exception but most are excellent. Down to familiarity I expect.


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## vickster (11 Sep 2016)

newfhouse said:


> You should spend more time in London. There's the odd exception but most are excellent. Down to familiarity I expect.


Do you mean the red bus drivers who pass you having forgotten where the stops are on their routes and slam the brakes on straight after overtaking? I'd say there are plenty of those especially outside the centre of town


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## newfhouse (11 Sep 2016)

vickster said:


> Do you mean the red bus drivers who pass you having forgotten where the stops are on their routes and slam the brakes on straight after overtaking? I'd say there are plenty of those especially outside the centre of town


I guess your experience on south London roads is different to mine. What you describe has happened to me, of course, but it's a long way from normal. On my commute, mostly A23, most bus drivers follow me at a sensible distance and allow me to pass before pulling out from stops.


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## vickster (11 Sep 2016)

This isn't during commuting time generally, perhaps if the bus is in slow traffic the drivers suffer less from MGIF disease


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## mjr (11 Sep 2016)

vickster said:


> This isn't during commuting time generally, perhaps if the bus is in slow traffic the drivers suffer less from MGIF disease


I've commented elsewhere that my daytime experiences of London buses is much worse than what others report commuting. Still few as bad as Stagecoach in rural areas, though.


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## Dogtrousers (12 Sep 2016)

Roxy641 said:


> When a "Professional cyclist" retires is she/he then an "amateur" ?


If we go back to the days of strict division between amateur and pro sport, there wasn't always a way back. Once professionalised, always professionalised. That was certainly true of the rabidly amateur Rugby Union, before even they could not hold back the tide.


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## benb (12 Sep 2016)

Sky drivers to get safety refresher training. 
http://road.cc/204233


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## Roxy641 (12 Sep 2016)

Well, that is a start. Will do more good hopefully than just the apology. 



benb said:


> Sky drivers to get safety refresher training.
> http://road.cc/204233


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## Phaeton (12 Sep 2016)

> Secondly, we will look at it internally. I've spoken to Claudio myself and we had a chat about it and he is really upset about it.



Or should that read



> Secondly, we will look at it internally. I've spoken to Claudio myself and we had a chat about it and he is really upset about being caught doing it on film.


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## Tin Pot (12 Sep 2016)

benb said:


> Sky drivers to get safety refresher training.
> http://road.cc/204233




I am genuinely surprised. 

In a good way.


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## Big Dave laaa (12 Sep 2016)

Whilst Andy is the only one with camera footage, we have spoken to a couple of other cyclists who had similar passes from the same bus that day. The driver is not fit to be in control of a vehicle like that on British roads!


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## Dogtrousers (12 Sep 2016)

Tin Pot said:


> I am genuinely surprised.
> 
> In a good way.


Slick PR
Or responsible remedial action

Depending on how cynical you are


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## coffeejo (12 Sep 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> Slick PR
> Or responsible remedial action
> 
> Depending of how cynical you are


Remember you're talking to a bunch of strangers on the internet...


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## jarlrmai (13 Sep 2016)

Like you should need training to find out that no, driving a massive coach that close to a cyclist is not fine.


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