# Legally can you cycle on the A77?



## a01020304 (4 Apr 2018)

The A77 in Scotland runs from south of Fenwick to Portpatrick, it is Dual Carriageway in places then goes to two way traffic.
The road has access to farms and does have slow moving tractors on it, however my question is can a non motorised bike (Cycle/Push Bike) be riden on this whole stretch of road that is signed A77?

I ask this as TomTom maps are adament this is classified as a Motorway status the whole way. When I sent them an email they explained that as its a 70mph road its a motorway.

So I ask everyone out there, in terms of law are you allowed to cycle along the A77? (whether there is a path or not)


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## HLaB (4 Apr 2018)

a01020304 said:


> The A77 in Scotland runs from south of Fenwick to Portpatrick, it is Dual Carriageway in places then goes to two way traffic.
> The road has access to farms and does have slow moving tractors on it, however my question is can a non motorised bike (Cycle/Push Bike) be riden on this whole stretch of road that is signed A77?
> 
> I ask this as TomTom maps are adament this is classified as a Motorway status the whole way. When I sent them an email they explained that as its a 70mph road its a motorway.
> ...


I don't know why you'd want too but if there's not a 'no cycling' sign like on parts of the A68 or A90 there's no bylaw stopping you.


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## BianchiVirgin (4 Apr 2018)

If it was a motorway it would (probably) be the M77. Anyone can cycle an A road unless there are specific signs prohibiting it. Don't go by Tom Tom or the likes when your gumption suggests otherwise.


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## a01020304 (4 Apr 2018)

BianchiVirgin said:


> If it was a motorway it would (probably) be the M77. Anyone can cycle an A road unless there are specific signs prohibiting it. Don't go by Tom Tom or the likes when your gumption suggests otherwise.



I am only pointing out they state its a motorway the whole length. I am trying to convince them they are wrong, i am asking others here if they know something I dont


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## HLaB (4 Apr 2018)

I just went to a cycle route planning site and its fastest route between Kilmarnock and Ayr is the A77 https://www.cyclestreets.net/journey/60528933/#fastest


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## Tim Hall (4 Apr 2018)

There a many many 70 mph roads which aren't motorways, so I'd suggest TomTom are talking nonsense.


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## a01020304 (4 Apr 2018)

Tim Hall said:


> There a many many 70 mph roads which aren't motorways, so I'd suggest TomTom are talking nonsense.



I agree, I know there are some roads that cycles not allowed on and thats north wales expressway, parts of A1 and A9 but certainly A77 is not one of them to best of my knowlege and certainly not a motorway

In 1990 I walked from dutch house roundabout along A77 to Fenwick and no one batted an eyelid and i was not concerned either, yes traffic pass fast but no one said you cant do that


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## midlife (4 Apr 2018)

Doesn't it turn into a motorway at junction 8 but before that it has non blue signs so not a motorway?


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## Cuchilo (4 Apr 2018)

Has the national speed limit changed from 60 to 70 ?


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## Sea of vapours (4 Apr 2018)

a01020304 said:


> I am only pointing out they state its a motorway the whole length. I am trying to convince them they are wrong, i am asking others here if they know something I dont


It's shown on the OS map as not being a motorway until it reaches Fenwick, at which point it become the M77 (at J8 of the M77). Pretty unequivocal.

The national speed limit on a dual carriageway is 70mph unless otherwise marked; same as a motorway. That does not make it a motorway and never has. Tom Tom are talking rubbish.


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## HLaB (4 Apr 2018)

Cuchilo said:


> Has the national speed limit changed from 60 to 70 ?


Its never changed its always been 60mph on a single carriageway and 70mph on a dual carriageway.


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## a01020304 (4 Apr 2018)

Sea of vapours said:


> It's shown on the OS map as not being a motorway until it reaches Fenwick, at which point it become the M77 (at J8 of the M77). Pretty unequivocal.
> 
> The national speed limit on a dual carriageway is 70mph unless otherwise marked; same as a motorway. That does not make it a motorway and never has. Tom Tom are talking rubbish.



Unfortunately TomTom moderation and customer care is based in india and they are impossible to convince, despite tomtom being based in holland you have to deal with india and they just dont understand or want to listen


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## NorthernDave (4 Apr 2018)

Tim Hall said:


> There a many many 70 mph roads which aren't motorways, so I'd suggest TomTom are talking nonsense.



^^^ This.

There is a 70mph NSL grade separated dual carriageway not quarter of a mile from where I'm sat typing this that I could legally go cycle up and down if I chose.
As has been said, if it's not a motorway (as established by the A- prefix ), unless there are signs specifically forbidding cycling it's open season.

More here: https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/index.php?title=A77


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## classic33 (4 Apr 2018)

NorthernDave said:


> ^^^ This.
> 
> There is a 70mph NSL grade separated dual carriageway not quarter of a mile from where I'm sat typing this that I could legally go cycle up and down if I chose.
> As has been said, if it's not a motorway (as established by the A- prefix ), unless there are signs specifically forbidding cycling it's open season.
> ...


A58 becoming the A58(M)?


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## srw (4 Apr 2018)

https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/index.php?title=A77

Although why anyone would want to ride on a freight-laden dual carriageway when a cursory glance at a map shows better alternatives beats me, and why a cyclist should care what TomTom thinks is utterly mystifying.


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## Cuchilo (4 Apr 2018)

HLaB said:


> Its never changed its always been 60mph on a single carriageway and 70mph on a dual carriageway.


Well there you go . All the duel carriageways around me are 40 mph and signed so.


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## NorthernDave (4 Apr 2018)

@classic33 No - the highest speed limit I can think of on the A58 is 60mph and the A58(M) only has a 40mph limit - and despite being motorway I've seen all sorts on there that shouldn't be using it, from learner drivers (before the rules changed) to a very brave chap on an MTB who cycled the full length of it westbound.

The road I'm on about is the A6120 between the Windmill Roundabout (A64) and Barwick Road. I've no idea how it's kept the 70mph limit, but it has.


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## a01020304 (4 Apr 2018)

srw said:


> https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/index.php?title=A77
> 
> Although why anyone would want to ride on a freight-laden dual carriageway when a cursory glance at a map shows better alternatives beats me, and why a cyclist should care what TomTom thinks is utterly mystifying.



only reason i am quoting tomtom is that my work insist i use that in the vehicle i use, so tested it with cycle and noticed the fault. i usually use HERe maps as reliable


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## a01020304 (4 Apr 2018)

srw said:


> https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/index.php?title=A77
> 
> Although why anyone would want to ride on a freight-laden dual carriageway when a cursory glance at a map shows better alternatives beats me, and why a cyclist should care what TomTom thinks is utterly mystifying.



its not about would you use it, its about legally can it be cycled on


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## HLaB (4 Apr 2018)

Cuchilo said:


> Well there you go . All the duel carriageways around me are 40 mph and signed so.


Well there not national speed limit if they're signed 40mph


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## Alex H (4 Apr 2018)

a01020304 said:


> I am trying to convince them they are wrong,



May I ask why you are trying to do this?


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## Cuchilo (4 Apr 2018)

HLaB said:


> Well there not national speed limit if they're signed 40mph


I dont think ive ever been on a duel carriageway thats had a national speed limit sign . Could be wrong but ....


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## MikeG (4 Apr 2018)

Cuchilo said:


> I dont think ive ever been on a duel carriageway thats had a national speed limit sign . Could be wrong but ....



Yeah you have. Every time you see the de-restricted sign national speed limits apply......and that's 70 on a dual carriageway.


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## HLaB (4 Apr 2018)

Cuchilo said:


> I dont think ive ever been on a duel carriageway thats had a national speed limit sign . Could be wrong but ....


I remember sitting on this one (A2) and thinking it was ironic


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## glasgowcyclist (4 Apr 2018)

a01020304 said:


> The A77 in Scotland runs from south of Fenwick to Portpatrick, it is Dual Carriageway in places then goes to two way traffic.
> The road has access to farms and does have slow moving tractors on it, however my question is can a non motorised bike (Cycle/Push Bike) be riden on this whole stretch of road that is signed A77?
> 
> I ask this as TomTom maps are adament this is classified as a Motorway status the whole way. When I sent them an email they explained that as its a 70mph road its a motorway.
> ...



The short answer to your question is: yes.


There is no part of it where cycling is prohibited and it is definitely not a motorway (I use part of it every day on my bike). As TMN says, one look at the big green route information signs tells you that. There is only one A-road in this area that I am aware of that prohibits cycles (along with mopeds, tractors and horses) and that's the A726 GSO, which runs from East Kilbride up to Newton Mearns, where it meets the M77.


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## Brandane (4 Apr 2018)

Cuchilo said:


> Has the national speed limit changed from 60 to 70 ?





HLaB said:


> Its never changed its always been 60mph on a single carriageway and 70mph on a dual carriageway.



Prior to 1988 (IIRC) the NSL on dual carriageways was 60 mph but was increased to 70 mph in that year, bringing the limit into line with motorways.
To answer the OP as I have local knowledge of the A77 -yes it is legal to cycle on it (note - A77; but not on the M77 which starts about Fenwick). Why anyone would want to risk life and limb by putting themselves at the mercy of all that traffic when there are much better alternatives is a different question. It's a horrible road.


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## Brandane (4 Apr 2018)

Cuchilo said:


> I dont think ive ever been on a duel carriageway thats had a national speed limit sign . Could be wrong but ....


You're in London. Go outside the M25 and you'll see lots of them. In fact, in this area there are very few DC's which aren't NSL.. The exceptions tend to be in built up areas, like the 30mph DC on the A8 main road through Greenock.


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## a01020304 (4 Apr 2018)

Alex H said:


> May I ask why you are trying to do this?



because the map is wrong and i am trying to tell them that


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## a01020304 (4 Apr 2018)

Brandane said:


> Prior to 1988 (IIRC) the NSL on dual carriageways was 60 mph but was increased to 70 mph in that year, bringing the limit into line with motorways.
> To answer the OP as I have local knowledge of the A77 -yes it is legal to cycle on it (note - A77; but not on the M77 which starts about Fenwick). Why anyone would want to risk life and limb by putting themselves at the mercy of all that traffic when there are much better alternatives is a different question. It's a horrible road.



i agree its not best to ride on however maps should be accurate and not have restrictions that do not exist


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## Profpointy (4 Apr 2018)

Cuchilo said:


> Has the national speed limit changed from 60 to 70 ?



Dual carriageways are 79 (by default)

edit meant to say 70 not 79 so I wasn't cracking a joke ( this time)


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## derrick (4 Apr 2018)

Tim Hall said:


> There a many many 70 mph roads which aren't motorways, so I'd suggest TomTom are talking nonsense.


I thought it was only motorways were 70 mph.
The national speed limit is 70 mph (112 km/h) on motorways, 70 mph (112 km/h) on dual carriageways, 60 mph (96 km/h) on single carriageways and generally 30 mph (48 km/h) in areas with street lighting (restricted roads).


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## Tim Hall (4 Apr 2018)

derrick said:


> I thought it was only motorways were 70 mph.
> The national speed limit is 70 mph (112 km/h) on motorways, 70 mph (112 km/h) on dual carriageways, 60 mph (96 km/h) on single carriageways and generally 30 mph (48 km/h) in areas with street lighting (restricted roads).


You seem to contradict yourself. A dual carriageway isn't a motorway.

Once again I'm amazed/slightly disappointed that people only "think" things about the legalities involved in using the public highway. It's not like the rules are kept a secret.


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## derrick (4 Apr 2018)

Tim Hall said:


> You seem to contradict yourself. A dual carriageway isn't a motorway.
> 
> Once again I'm amazed/slightly disappointed that people only "think" things about the legalities involved in using the public highway. It's not like the rules are kept a secret.


So where are these other roads you can do 70mph on?
where did i say a dual carriageway was a motorway.


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## glasgowcyclist (4 Apr 2018)

derrick said:


> I thought it was only motorways were 70 mph.
> The national speed limit is 70 mph (112 km/h) on motorways, 70 mph (112 km/h) on dual carriageways, 60 mph (96 km/h) on single carriageways and generally 30 mph (48 km/h) in areas with street lighting (restricted roads).



It's also worth pointing out that the class of vehicle will also determine the applicable speed limit. Not all vehicles are allowed to travel at the 60 or 70 mph limits on those roads.


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## derrick (4 Apr 2018)

glasgowcyclist said:


> It's also worth pointing out that the class of vehicle will also determine the applicable speed limit. Not all vehicles are allowed to travel at the 60 or 70 mph limits on those roads.


Am not disputing that.


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## Tim Hall (4 Apr 2018)

derrick said:


> So where are these other roads you can do 70mph on?
> where did i say a dual carriageway was a motorway.


Roads other than motorways that you can do 70mph on are dual carriageways.

You didn't say dual carriageways were motorways but in the first part of your response said "I thought it was only motorways were 70mph", swiftly followed by "The national speed limit is 70 mph (112 km/h) on motorways, 70 mph (112 km/h) on dual carriageways,". Do you see the contradiction?


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## Ming the Merciless (4 Apr 2018)

Brandane said:


> Prior to 1988 (IIRC) the NSL on dual carriageways was 60 mph but was increased to 70 mph in that year, bringing the limit into line with motorways.
> To answer the OP as I have local knowledge of the A77 -yes it is legal to cycle on it (note - A77; but not on the M77 which starts about Fenwick). Why anyone would want to risk life and limb by putting themselves at the mercy of all that traffic when there are much better alternatives is a different question. It's a horrible road.



Speed limits were introduced in 1965, and were 60 mph for single carriageway, and 70 mph for dual carriageway. They were only reduced to 50 mph, and 60 mph respectively after the oil crisis in 1973. Later they were just restored to their previous values. The lower values were purely a fuel saving measure.


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## huggy (4 Apr 2018)

The other thing about Dual Carriageways is they don’t need 2 lanes in each direction. A dual carriageway is a road where the 2 directions are separated by a physical barrier (can be just a curb). So if you can’t roll a ball across it it’s a dual carriageway


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## Crankarm (5 Apr 2018)

a01020304 said:


> because the map is wrong and i am trying to tell them that



Let it go, life is too short. Do you have that much spare time that you can embark on this personal crusade which will just be a waste of time? I don't know any cyclists who use TomTom nor has it ever been recommended, but that's not to say there is some one who has used or is using a TomTom for cycling and based on their inaccurate information is being deprived of the opportunity and joy of riding this delightful road.


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## User16625 (5 Apr 2018)

Crankarm said:


> Let it go, life is too short. *Do you have that much spare time that you can embark on this personal crusade which will just be a waste of time?* I don't know any cyclists who use TomTom nor has it ever been recommended, but that's not to say there is some one who has used or is using a TomTom for cycling and based on their inaccurate information is being deprived of the opportunity and joy of riding this delightful road.




Yes she does:

https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=121136


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## Brandane (5 Apr 2018)

huggy said:


> The other thing about Dual Carriageways is they don’t need 2 lanes in each direction. A dual carriageway is a road where the 2 directions are separated by a physical barrier (can be just a curb). So if you can’t roll a ball across it it’s a dual carriageway


And conversely, there are multi-lane roads which are NOT dual carriageways as there is no barrier separating them. Some drivers seem to get confused with the difference between lanes and carriageways.


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## Brandane (5 Apr 2018)

[QUOTE 5204014, member: 9609"]I don't know the 77 at all but how does it compare to the 75 ? That would be a joy on a bike, I somehow doubt you're typical Tang with the late-for the-boat-button engaged would give you much care.[/QUOTE]
Six and two threes; I wouldn't cycle on either of them! But if my hand was forced I would prefer to take my chances with the A75; at least it has wide verges for a lot of it's length.


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## glasgowcyclist (5 Apr 2018)

derrick said:


> Am not disputing that.



I was trying to be helpful by offering information you might not have been aware of, given that you didn't know the speed limit of 70mph applied to dual carriageways.




derrick said:


> I thought it was only motorways were 70 mph.


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## furball (5 Apr 2018)

Do TomTom promote their products as suitable for cycling?
If yes then you have a point. If no, then the only problem I can see with this error is that drivers will not expect to come across cyclists on that particular road (if they ever give it any thought).


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## Ajax Bay (5 Apr 2018)

a01020304 said:


> the map is wrong


Is the map wrong or is it merely TomTom's interpretation of the map? Is that bit of the A77 shown in blue on the map? Screenshot image if you want (and are allowed by noob status). But you've got your answer (above . . . = "Yes it's legal") and maybe you have better things to do than spar with TomTom (wherever in the world their customer service centre is based). What TomTom device have you got fitted to your cycle?
 to Cycle Chat.


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## Milkfloat (5 Apr 2018)

I work for a competitor of TomTom, we have the access restriction's correct in our data.

However to be fair to them, unless I am not following your description properly the TomTom online map shows the A77 as a normal dual carriage way and not a motorway. It has the M27 north of Kilmarnock identified as a motorway and the A77 to the east and continuing south not as a motorway.

https://mydrive.tomtom.com/en_gb/#m...SCT, GBR","coords":[54.84179,-5.11688]}+ver=3


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## glasgowcyclist (5 Apr 2018)

Milkfloat said:


> However to be fair to them, unless I am not following your description properly the TomTom online map shows the A77 as a normal dual carriage way and not a motorway. It has the M27 north of Kilmarnock identified as a motorway and the A77 to the east and continuing south not as a motorway.



Correct.

Between Kilmarnock and Glasgow, the A77 varies from dual to single carriageway at several points.

When travelling south on it from, say, Newton Mearns, it's a simple matter to stay on the A77 and not venture onto the M77 in error.
Going north, it becomes the M77 at Fenwick so non-M/way traffic has to pay attention and take the slip road off to the left to continue on the A77, otherwise you will end up on the motorway.


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## Ming the Merciless (5 Apr 2018)

Milkfloat said:


> I work for a competitor of TomTom, we have the access restriction's correct in our data.
> 
> However to be fair to them, unless I am not following your description properly the TomTom online map shows the A77 as a normal dual carriage way and not a motorway. It has the M27 north of Kilmarnock identified as a motorway and the A77 to the east and continuing south not as a motorway.
> 
> ...



That b road through Kilmarnock looks nicer and might have a pub or shop or cafe to stop at.


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## lazybloke (5 Apr 2018)

huggy said:


> So if you can’t roll a ball across it it’s a dual carriageway


What size ball? There's quite a gap under a Brifen fence


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## mjr (5 Apr 2018)

huggy said:


> The other thing about Dual Carriageways is they don’t need 2 lanes in each direction. A dual carriageway is a road where the 2 directions are separated by a physical barrier (can be just a curb). So if you can’t roll a ball across it it’s a dual carriageway


Unless you're in Oxfordshire, where the entry to the unusual one-lane-each-side dual carriageway A420 under the Great Western Main Line is bizarrely signposted as "Single Track Road" before you can see it (edit: and I think has been for as long as I've been driving), which I've seen make drivers unfamiliar with it brake rather hard from 50mph...
View attachment 403079


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## mjr (5 Apr 2018)

Alex H said:


> May I ask why you are trying to do this?


Loves working for tomtom for free.


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## boydj (5 Apr 2018)

From Glasgow to Fenwick, as others have said, the old A77, running more or less parallel to the M77, makes an excellent cycling route. I personally would not cycle on the A77 south of Fenwick. There are quieter, more scenic country roads, well known to the local cycling fraternity (and sisterhood), which will provide a safer alternative.

I would have expected the TomTom to have a setting which allows you to avoid dual carriageways, and most cycling mapping apps have such a setting, as does google mapping.


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## BrumJim (5 Apr 2018)

YukonBoy said:


> That b road through Kilmarnock looks nicer and might have a pub or shop or cafe to stop at.


It goes through Kilmarnock. Better off going round, not through. Unlikely to be anywhere nice where you want to stop. Unless you fancy a Killy pie.


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## a01020304 (6 Apr 2018)

boydj said:


> From Glasgow to Fenwick, as others have said, the old A77, running more or less parallel to the M77, makes an excellent cycling route. I personally would not cycle on the A77 south of Fenwick. There are quieter, more scenic country roads, well known to the local cycling fraternity (and sisterhood), which will provide a safer alternative.
> 
> I would have expected the TomTom to have a setting which allows you to avoid dual carriageways, and most cycling mapping apps have such a setting, as does google mapping.




you missing the point, its does not matter if there is other routes to take its the fact that it specifically says no pedestrians or bikes allowed. HERE maps are the same, its restricting the same and is classed as a Motorway same as A71 at Irvine too.
Maps should be correct for whoever uses them not pick and choose


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## Brandane (6 Apr 2018)

a01020304 said:


> you missing the point, its does not matter if there is other routes to take its the fact that it specifically says no pedestrians or bikes allowed. HERE maps are the same, its restricting the same and is classed as a Motorway same as A71 at Irvine too.
> Maps should be correct for whoever uses them not pick and choose


I thought the point was "Legally, can you cycle on the A77?"
If the point is a discussion about TomTom maps then the thread title might be a touch misleading.


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## glasgowcyclist (6 Apr 2018)

a01020304 said:


> you missing the point, its does not matter if there is other routes to take its the fact that it specifically says no pedestrians or bikes allowed. HERE maps are the same, its restricting the same and is classed as a Motorway same as A71 at Irvine too.
> Maps should be correct for whoever uses them not pick and choose




Can you post a screenshot of the A77 where tomtom show it to be motorway status?


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## a01020304 (6 Apr 2018)

Brandane said:


> I thought the point was "Legally, can you cycle on the A77?"
> If the point is a discussion about TomTom maps then the thread title might be a touch misleading.



that was a reply to that specific question/comment/person


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## Ajax Bay (6 Apr 2018)

a01020304 said:


> *it* specifically says no pedestrians or bikes allowed. HERE maps are the same, its restricting the same and is classed as a Motorway same as A71 at Irvine too.
> Maps should be correct for whoever uses them not pick and choose


What is your "it" (emboldened above)? HERE map image:




This HERE map clip (and the OP has said he/she prefers HERE maps) shows the change from A77 to M77 clearly (thickness and colour of symbol changes).
And here's the TomTom version






It would be great if all maps were correct, but quality varies, allowing users to "pick and choose". However both these maps reflect the fact that the A77 is a A road not a motorway.
I don't think the routing software is reflecting any legal prohibition to cycle on the A77, its algorhythm just excludes it as a sensible cycling option. On the HERE map, it looks as if it is treating the A71 dual carriageway going east from Irvine, similarly: that is it won't accept a cycle route 'dragged' onto the A road.
Possible lesson: Don't use these applications for planning cycle routes. RwGPS.
HTH


Maz said:


> You _could _use a TomTom, but you might end up taking the Motorway...


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## classic33 (6 Apr 2018)

Ajax Bay said:


> What is your "it" (emboldened above)? HERE map image:
> View attachment 403189
> 
> This HERE map clip (and the OP has said he/she prefers HERE maps) shows the change from A77 to M77 clearly (thickness and colour of symbol changes).
> ...


Lead car has no driver!


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## mybike (6 Apr 2018)

HLaB said:


> I remember sitting on this one (A2) and thinking it was ironic



Goes from 50 to 70 just before that at the Kent boundary.


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## Ajax Bay (6 Apr 2018)

classic33 said:


> Lead car has no driver!


Cross thread contamination?? Want to avoid cross-threading.


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## pjd57 (6 Apr 2018)

While we are on the subject of the A77 , is there a decent way to get from Glasgow to Cairnryan ?


On the no cycling theme, A720 Edinburgh city bypass is clearly signposted as a no go area.


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## boydj (6 Apr 2018)

a01020304 said:


> you missing the point, its does not matter if there is other routes to take its the fact that it specifically says no pedestrians or bikes allowed. HERE maps are the same, its restricting the same and is classed as a Motorway same as A71 at Irvine too.
> Maps should be correct for whoever uses them not pick and choose



No! I answered your question very specifically, which was about the cycling on the A77 and not about the shortcomings of TomTom as a cycle routing tool. If you want a cycling route, then you should use an appropriate tool, which the TomTom clearly is not.


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## boydj (6 Apr 2018)

pjd57 said:


> While we are on the subject of the A77 , is there a decent way to get from Glasgow to Cairnryan ?
> 
> On the no cycling theme, A720 Edinburgh city bypass is clearly signposted as a no go area.



As long as you are not in a hurry, there are country roads running mostly parallel with the A77 on an inland route. It's a pretty lumpy route on a bike and a good bit longer.


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## Ajax Bay (6 Apr 2018)

pjd57 said:


> Glasgow to Cairnryan


Unless I wanted to hit the A roads (not dual carriageways) I'd take this route: 140km + 1195m. Enjoy (picking a day with a northerly/easterly).
RwGPS: Glasgow to Cairnryan
You're forced onto the A77 from Ballantrae.


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## furball (6 Apr 2018)

a01020304 said:


> you missing the point, its does not matter if there is other routes to take its the fact that it specifically says no pedestrians or bikes allowed. HERE maps are the same, its restricting the same and is classed as a Motorway same as A71 at Irvine too.
> Maps should be correct for whoever uses them not pick and choose



Please show a screenshot that shows the entire route as being motorway. 
The Tomtom mydrive (there's a clue there) link in Milkfloats post above doesn't show the entire route as being motorway. It shows a route out of Fenwick using the M77 which after a short distance becomes the A77. Cyclists cannot use this route because they cannot use the motorway.


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## boydj (6 Apr 2018)

Ajax Bay said:


> Unless I wanted to hit the A roads (not dual carriageways) I'd take this route: 140km + 1195m. Enjoy (picking a day with a northerly/easterly).
> RwGPS: Glasgow to Cairnryan
> You're forced onto the A77 from Ballantrae.



I'd go down to Newton Stewart and then turn right - much quieter and safer, but longer. The A77 south of Ballantrae is pretty bad in a car with all the lorries heading for the port. I'd not like to do it on a bike. I've cycled to Newton Stewart once and driven to Cairnryan and back several times.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (6 Apr 2018)

pjd57 said:


> While we are on the subject of the A77 , is there a decent way to get from Glasgow to Cairnryan ?


Car


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## Ajax Bay (6 Apr 2018)

What the OP's saying (I think) is that the mapping/routing software does not let one on the A77 near Kilmarnock (say) if the mode of travel chosen is 'cycle'. As I've demonstrated above, the mapping is fine/accurate wrt where the A77 morphs into the M77 near Fenwick. You try this HERE map and try to route on the A77.


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## Ajax Bay (6 Apr 2018)

boydj said:


> I'd go down to Newton Stewart and then turn right


If one wanted to avoid the A77 north from Cairnryan, rather than going all the way to Newton Stewart (extra 45km), turn off the A714 at Barrhill and // the rail line to New Luce and SW to Castle Kennedy. Only a bit more climb than via Ballantrae and A77.


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## pjd57 (6 Apr 2018)

Thanks for all the input re Glasgow - Cairnryan.
I'd like to do a few days in Ireland and ideally cycle the whole trip ( except the sea crossing before anyone jumps in )


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## Mr Celine (6 Apr 2018)

<pedant> Unlike in Englandshire there is no national speed limit on Scottish motorways. The speed limit is specified in the statutory instrument which defines the road as a special road. </Pedant>


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## furball (6 Apr 2018)

Ajax Bay said:


> What the OP's saying (I think) is that the mapping/routing software does not let one one the A77 near Kilmarnock (say) if the mode of travel chosen is 'cycle'. As I've demonstrated above, the mapping is fine/accurate wrt where the A77 morphs into the M77 near Fenwick. You try this HERE map and try to route on the A77.


I agree and I think we are making the same point. The Tomtom mydrive (if this is what the op is using, not clear about that) linked to above doesn't have a cycle route option hence the route given is for vehicles and uses the M77 that leads onto the A77. Cyclists cannot therfore use this route out of Fenwick to reach the A77. I don't believe Tomtom are saying cyclists are not allowed on the A77 or that the entire road is motorway. A screenshot could prove otherwise though.


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## HLaB (6 Apr 2018)

mybike said:


> Goes from 50 to 70 just before that at the Kent boundary.


Yip, all the speed limits are frustrating when your sitting in a queue


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## mjr (7 Apr 2018)

HLaB said:


> Yip, all the speed limits are frustrating when your sitting in a queue


I think you mean irrelevant. They're not frustrating anything.


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## boydj (7 Apr 2018)

Mr Celine said:


> <pedant> Unlike in Englandshire there is no national speed limit on Scottish motorways. The speed limit is specified in the statutory instrument which defines the road as a special road. </Pedant>



That may be so, but, unless otherwise signed at regular intervals, the speed limit on Scottish motorways is still 70mph - though it does seem to be a slower 70 than is apparently observed further south (IME).


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## Brandane (7 Apr 2018)

boydj said:


> though it does seem to be a slower 70 than is apparently observed further south (IME).


And cars are still allowed in the left hand lanes up here (although that disease is spreading from the south).


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## glasgowcyclist (5 Nov 2018)

[QUOTE 5432500, member: 9609"]more boat traffic on the 75 - no way would I be on that road on a push bike

View: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10215880220576967&id=1189545616[/QUOTE]


Holy shoot!

I can't fathom what goes on in the mind of a driver like that one on the wrong side of the solid white line. I'm also baffled by the insistence of the driver in the filming lorry to get within a few feet of the lorry ahead when there's a likelihood of a head on crash occurring imminently. There's a few crazy drivers in that footage.


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## spen666 (5 Nov 2018)

a01020304 said:


> ....
> 
> I ask this as TomTom maps are adament this is classified as a Motorway status the whole way. When I sent them an email they explained that as its a 70mph road its a motorway.




A motorway has a specific definition in law. There are Motorways that do not have a 70MPH limit and there are plenty of roads with a 70MPH limit that is not a motorway

Clearly Tom Tom do not understand the law or the question or both or perhaps its some other answer


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## Phaeton (5 Nov 2018)

glasgowcyclist said:


> I can't fathom what goes on in the mind of a driver like that one on the wrong side of the solid white line. I'm also baffled by the insistence of the driver in the filming lorry to get within a few feet of the lorry ahead when there's a likelihood of a head on crash occurring imminently. There's a few crazy drivers in that footage.


Possibly a left hand drive artic who doesn't think he's on the wrong side of the road?
[QUOTE 5432532, member: 9609"]cause he's thinking of passing too - they will be on the CB to there mates up ahead making sure there is nothing coming. And all that will be way above limiter speed let alone the 40mph speed limit[/QUOTE]
Speed limit is now 50mph on single carriageway


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## vickster (5 Nov 2018)

Phaeton said:


> Speed limit is not 50mph on single carriageway


Apparently it is for big lorries in England & Wales?

https://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/cha...peed-limits-for-lorries-in-england-and-wales#

https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits


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## Phaeton (5 Nov 2018)

vickster said:


> Apparently it is for big lorries in England & Wales?


That should have read

"Speed limit is now 50mph on single carriageway"

Original post edited, it changed either earlier this year or last.


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## vickster (5 Nov 2018)

Phaeton said:


> That should have read
> 
> "Speed limit is now 50mph on single carriageway"
> 
> Original post edited, it changed either earlier this year or last.


April 2015 according to the first link so not that recent

And my ...is... perfectly accurate way to describe the current situation


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## Black Sheep (5 Nov 2018)

BianchiVirgin said:


> If it was a motorway it would (probably) be the M77. Anyone can cycle an A road unless there are specific signs prohibiting it. Don't go by Tom Tom or the likes when your gumption suggests otherwise.



Some A roads are labeled A1(M) to denote a motorway section of an A road, motorway rules apply



Cuchilo said:


> Has the national speed limit changed from 60 to 70 ?



60mph (for cars) unless on dual carriageway, which is any number of lanes provided divided by anything from a kerb to a wall or inbetween



Phaeton said:


> Possibly a left hand drive artic who doesn't think he's on the wrong side of the road?
> 
> Speed limit is now 50mph on single carriageway



for lorries?

Not seen anything for a general change?


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## glasgowcyclist (5 Nov 2018)

Phaeton said:


> Possibly a left hand drive artic who doesn't think he's on the wrong side of the road?



Even then I'd not see that as an excuse, prohibition of crossing solid white lines in the middle of the carriageway is standard throughout Europe.



Phaeton said:


> Speed limit is now 50mph on single carriageway



The road in question is the A75 in Scotland so the 40mph limit applies. (There is one exception: the Perth - Inverness stretch of the A9.)


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## Phaeton (5 Nov 2018)

[QUOTE 5432708, member: 9609"]but they could once pull the fuse and disable the limiter, 70 / 80 mph empty[/QUOTE]
Slightly OTT but we drove from LA to Vegas at a steady 90mph & was amazed how slowly we were catching the HGV out there, they were all above 80mph


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## DCBassman (5 Nov 2018)

Stupid amount of trucks. Should all be on rails, really, that's what the damn things were always better at.


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## pawl (5 Nov 2018)

a01020304 said:


> The A77 in Scotland runs from south of Fenwick to Portpatrick, it is Dual Carriageway in places then goes to two way traffic.
> The road has access to farms and does have slow moving tractors on it, however my question is can a non motorised bike (Cycle/Push Bike) be riden on this whole stretch of road that is signed A77?
> 
> I ask this as TomTom maps are adament this is classified as a Motorway status the whole way. When I sent them an email they explained that as its a 70mph road its a motorway.
> ...






Are not duel carriage ways 70 M P H max speed limit.


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## NorthernDave (5 Nov 2018)

pawl said:


> Are not duel carriage ways 70 M P H max speed limit.



They can be, but many aren't. There are some near here with a 30mph limit.
Different speed limits can apply for some vehicle types too - vans and what used to be called HGVs for example.


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## pawl (5 Nov 2018)

Yes did realise that there is one near me that has a 50 limit Should have mentioned that.

Thanks


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## oldwheels (6 Nov 2018)

I have not followed the whole of this thread and may have missed something and have not been on this road for a couple of years now. From Girvan northwards the road is narrow and nasty but had average speed cameras set to 50 mph. Somewhere about Ayr it turns into a dual carriageway but still speed restricted. Not somewhere I would want to cycle. I go on to the A78 from Monkton but still not somewhere to cycle. From Girvan south as others have said best avoided purely for safety and comfort.


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## oldwheels (6 Nov 2018)

Speed limits for lorries. I travel regularly on the A90 to Aberdeen and most lorries are about 50 to 55 mph. With my Motorhome I tuck in behind one and just stay there. With the car, apart from one short 50 mph section I can do 70 and most cars maintain about this speed.


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## Stevogalaxy (10 Nov 2018)

There is nothing stopping you riding any A road and no cycling signs on an A road are or will be advisory there are lots of time trials that have been or still are raced on the A1 and in East Yorkshire the A63 heading towards the m62 may not be ideal or the safest place to ride but don’t think it’s illegal


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## mjr (12 Nov 2018)

Stevogalaxy said:


> There is nothing stopping you riding any A road and no cycling signs on an A road are or will be advisory [...]


I believe the above to be completely untrue, sadly. It is definitely possible for a highway authority to make a Traffic Regulation Order banning cycling from an A road and they have done so, although we could debate the legality of them doing so (as it doesn't really comply with the spirit of the power in the Road Traffic Regulation Act, which is normally used to ban the heavier vehicles from roads where they are likely to injure others, not to ban those who would be injured).


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## glasgowcyclist (12 Nov 2018)

Stevogalaxy said:


> no cycling signs on an A road are or will be advisory



This "no cycling" sign is not advisory.


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## Stevogalaxy (14 Nov 2018)

MJR sadly you are right and you answered your own reply traffic orders cannot just be placed without cause or reason we could debate this forever and many examples could be given but here’s one 20 mph limits are almost everywhere enforceable mmmm? 30 mph is the lowest speed limit in uk glasgowcyclist your road must be classed as a motorway?


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## Stevogalaxy (14 Nov 2018)

I must add though if there is a safer cycling route or lane I would hope people would use it rather than compromise safety that’s why I fully support sustrans etc who campaign on all cyclists behalf for safety


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## Brandane (14 Nov 2018)

Stevogalaxy said:


> glasgowcyclist your road must be classed as a motorway?



No, it's the A726, East Kilbride expressway. Another example is the A720 Edinburgh bypass. Both are A class roads, dual carriageways but NOT motorways; but they have motorway regulations.


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## mjr (14 Nov 2018)

Stevogalaxy said:


> MJR sadly you are right and you answered your own reply traffic orders cannot just be placed without cause or reason we could debate this forever and many examples could be given but here’s one 20 mph limits are almost everywhere enforceable mmmm?


I'm sorry but I don't understand that question.

Also, try finding the reasons for a traffic order. It's very rare that they're anything other than nonsense copy-paste.


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## glasgowcyclist (14 Nov 2018)

Stevogalaxy said:


> glasgowcyclist your road must be classed as a motorway?



No, as Brandane states (and the picture shows) it is the A726. Map link Note also the colour of the route information sign, not blue as it would be on a motorway.



Stevogalaxy said:


> 30 mph is the lowest speed limit in uk



Not true, otherwise thousands of offenders who break the 20mph limit couldn't be put on awareness courses as an alternative to prosecution.


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## Stevogalaxy (14 Nov 2018)

No 20 mph limit advisory only but I do totally agree with the placing of these for safety if you have been on an awareness course it will be because you were at 31 mph


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## Ming the Merciless (14 Nov 2018)

20mph limit is set locally and is mandatory and legally enforceable. 30mph is the lowest national speed limit.


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## Poacher (14 Nov 2018)

Stevogalaxy said:


> No 20 mph limit advisory only but I do totally agree with the placing of these for safety if you have been on an awareness course it will be because you were at 31 mph


I suggest you contact the AA legal department and put them right: they say you get a fixed penalty for doing *24 *in a 20 zone when a course is not considered appropriate or a speed awareness course for *24 *to 31mph. This is confirmed by a freedom of information request to the NPCC (National Police Chiefs' Council) in February 2018.
I'd tend to place more reliance on either of these sources than some random poster on an internet forum.


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## mjr (14 Nov 2018)

Stevogalaxy said:


> No 20 mph limit advisory only but [...]


Only advisory for cycling. Compulsory for motoring.


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## oldwheels (14 Nov 2018)

The Scottish Government appear to be considering 20 mph max. limit on rural roads. This is at a very early stage so no further details that I know of.


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## glasgowcyclist (14 Nov 2018)

Stevogalaxy said:


> No 20 mph limit advisory only



I fear you've been misinformed. As I and others have given sources that support these limits being mandatory, could you cite an authority that supports your claim of 'advisory only'?


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## Pat "5mph" (14 Nov 2018)

oldwheels said:


> The Scottish Government appear to be considering 20 mph max. limit on rural roads. This is at a very early stage so no further details that I know of.


As it is, they cannot even enforce the 20mph speed limit in Glasgow city centre, not the 20mph in my street.
What's the point?


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## mjr (14 Nov 2018)

glasgowcyclist said:


> I fear you've been misinformed. As I and others have given sources that support these limits being mandatory, could you cite an authority that supports your claim of 'advisory only'?


That's just reminded me. There is an advisory 20mph which uses a green circle somewhere like Tydd St Mary, put up by whatever county council it is. It's silly so probably Lincs. I didn't find it in the Traffic Signs Regs, so I wonder if it's even a lawful sign.


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## Stevogalaxy (14 Nov 2018)

This could be debated for a long time one cyclist injured or hurt badly is one too many statistics show there are more accidents on rural roads than anywhere else!
That said from personal experience I used to time trial on the A63 going out of hull and never thought it unsafe I rode the hadrians wall and went on a section of the A69 between the museums to the west of Hexham and have never been so scared in my life was I pleased to be back on the cycle lanes!


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## classic33 (17 Nov 2018)

mjr said:


> That's just reminded me. There is an advisory 20mph which uses a green circle somewhere like Tydd St Mary, put up by whatever county council it is. It's silly so probably Lincs. I didn't find it in the Traffic Signs Regs, so I wonder if it's even a lawful sign.


Bath & North East Somerset Council

_The signs referred to have no legal standing, they indicate an advisory 20mph maximum speed.

They have not specifically been authorised by the DfT, however advisory maximum speed signs are included in the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002._


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## Ming the Merciless (17 Nov 2018)

[QUOTE 5441978, member: 9609"]all's not lost though, 20mph zones dramatically reduce speeds
about 70% break the speed limit in a 30 mph road
but when that limit is reduced to 20 mph
only about 25% exceed 30 mph[/QUOTE]

How many exceed 20mph though?


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## mjr (17 Nov 2018)

classic33 said:


> Bath & North East Somerset Council
> 
> _The signs referred to have no legal standing, they indicate an advisory 20mph maximum speed.
> 
> They have not specifically been authorised by the DfT, however advisory maximum speed signs are included in the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002._


 Sir Humphrey at work!

The advisory max speed signs in TSRGD (diagram 513.1A and .2) look nothing like those green circles. Edit: I'm pretty sure a highway authority like Lincs or BaNES shouldn't be putting up confusing unauthorised signs but does anyone know if there's a law agin it?


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## Ajax Bay (18 Nov 2018)

Stevogalaxy said:


> we could debate this forever and many examples could be given but here’s one 20 mph limits are almost everywhere enforceable mmmm? 30 mph is the lowest speed limit in uk





Stevogalaxy said:


> No 20 mph limit advisory only but I do totally agree with the placing of these for safety





Stevogalaxy said:


> This could be debated for a long time one cyclist injured or hurt badly is one too many statistics show there are more accidents on rural roads than anywhere else!


Sorry, Steve. What could be debated a long time?
You have been given the authoritative info on 20mph limits (for motor vehicles) which can be established on specific roads or zones (ie areas often residential) with red circled signs with a '20' in black in the middle, and legally enforced. You have also been appraised that some A roads are prohibited to cyclists. We are seeing that issue played out with regard to the A63 which you've TT'ed on.
Oh, and  to Cycle Chat.


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