# Two panniers or four



## Cathryn (14 Oct 2007)

Slight case of over-forward planning but I've been thinking (again) about next year's big trip across Europe. I'm going to TRY to be disciplined in my packing, and only take a sensible amount - as a gauge I'm going to try to fit everything into one pair of panniers plus my other box thing that goes on top of the pannier.

Assuming I manage this, should I a) keep everything in the two back panniers or  split out the load between two back and two front panniers, although they would technically be half empty?


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## pw2389 (14 Oct 2007)

I think this depends on your bike. Personally, I'd see if I could get away with just two rear panniers (for the convenience), but it may be that the bike handles better with the weight distributed across the four panniers. 

The best way to find out is to have a practice pack and go off for a local test ride of an hour or so with each combination.


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## redfox (14 Oct 2007)

I always chuck stuff away until it fits into two back panniers and a rack bag, which can make the bike feel unbalanced for the first day or so at least.

I have often considered evening the load across four panniers but, so far, I prefer being able to carry everything from the bike at the end of the day in one trip.


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## Bigtallfatbloke (14 Oct 2007)

I vote for four (if you are carrying a camping load)

The bike is more balanced, and if your bags have handles/straps in the right places it's not difficult to pick them all up at once (I was able to carry all four bags and the bar bag and mat in one trip). Another reason is to provide room to buy stuff as you go along like food etc.

I did try to get it all into just two bags before I left but the bike felt bad to me...and really dragged it's arse up hills.

But if you are not camping I'd be surprised if you actually needed more than two rear bags anyway.


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## Cathryn (14 Oct 2007)

That's it, we're not camping so don't NEED four panniers. What I can't decide is if it would be smoother to have four half packed panniers than two loaded ones. I know i could buy the extra panniers etc and try it, but that's an expensive test!!!!


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## Danny (14 Oct 2007)

If you have a lot of weight at the back of your bike your steering can feel a bit light and twitchy. But in my experience this really only happens when you seriously overload - for example by packing loads of camping gear in addition to clothes. Two rear panniers full of clothes shouldn't be a problem

The only time I tried riding a bike with panniers at the front I found it a bit unnerving as it made the steering feel a bit heavier. But I guess it is something you get used to it.

Finally I would agree with PW - try packing everything you need into two panniers and go for a test ride to see if your bike still feels stable.


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## Brock (14 Oct 2007)

How about two rear panniers and a bar bag? A lot of weight at the back shouldn't be a problem as long as you're aware of it. Careful honking up steep inclines!


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## pw2389 (14 Oct 2007)

Cathryn said:


> I know i could buy the extra panniers etc and try it, but that's an expensive test!!!!


Sorry, hadn't appreciated you didn't have the front panniers already. Do you know anyone you could borrow a pair from for testing purposes?


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## snorri (14 Oct 2007)

I used to have just two rear panniers but now prefer to share the load around four. The handling is much improved, both when actually cycling and when pushing the bike around pedestrian areas etc. Also it is nice to know you have a bit of extra baggage space for tour souvenirs.


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## Cathryn (14 Oct 2007)

I might see if I can blag a pair for a weekend!! Feels like a sensible idea.


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## vernon (14 Oct 2007)

Cathryn said:


> Slight case of over-forward planning but I've been thinking (again) about next year's big trip across Europe. I'm going to TRY to be disciplined in my packing, and only take a sensible amount - as a gauge I'm going to try to fit everything into one pair of panniers plus my other box thing that goes on top of the pannier.
> 
> Assuming I manage this, should I a) keep everything in the two back panniers or  split out the load between two back and two front panniers, although they would technically be half empty?



It all depends on the size of your rear panniers. If everything fits, then there's no need to go to the expense of extra panniers. There are advocates for the use of four regarding weight distribution. I've used two and four panniers on tour and have not found a great deal of difference in the handling of my bikes.

A bar bag might be a handy addition for things like wallet/purse, camera, phone and passport. You can detach it and carry it around with you when away from the bike. You also have quick access to your camera should you see something of interest.


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## Cathryn (14 Oct 2007)

I suppose the worry about the two pannier thing is that all the weight goes on the back wheels. I have good Mavic wheels...would they be strong enough for two panniers of clothes etc?


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## ufkacbln (14 Oct 2007)

I always carry spare space. You never know when you will have a hot day and require to carry water, or a long remote day when you have to carry food, or to even space to carry bits and bobs for that evening.

There are also the occasions when you make a rash purchase and carry it to a post office tp send home.

It is also nice to be able to keep wet or dry clothing separate.

I find this useful.


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## Brock (14 Oct 2007)

Cathryn said:


> I suppose the worry about the two pannier thing is that all the weight goes on the back wheels. I have good Mavic wheels...would they be strong enough for two panniers of clothes etc?



I believe that depends as much on the quality of road you intend to travel as the weight you're carrying. The only sure way to cover yourself is to carry spare spokes and a hypercracker. That said I'm sure a decent pair of properly built wheels should be more than upto the task of carrying a couple of bags of tutus and blouses, or whatever it is you girl cyclers carry. 
Wish I was coming with you.


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## Cathryn (14 Oct 2007)

Aw, thanks!! It'll be fab - assuming I get the time off from work anyway. 

I got kicked out of ballet class aged 3 for being flat footed, so personally I don't carry tutus, but I do carry too many shoes...I once carried a pair of heels across the alps to go to Oktoberfest...goes to say I never wore them!!


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## pw2389 (14 Oct 2007)

Cathryn said:


> I got kicked out of ballet class aged 3 for being flat footed...



Ballet class at 3? Is a child even able to walk at that age, let alone have any degree of physical coordination?


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## Bigtallfatbloke (14 Oct 2007)

If you are not camping and you arnt going to stock up on souvenirs etc i cant see what gear you'd NEED to take that would require four panniers. Seems unecessary to take 4 bags when 2 and a bar bag will clearly be enough


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## Leilei (15 Oct 2007)

Cathryn said:


> Slight case of over-forward planning but I've been thinking (again) about next year's big trip across Europe. I'm going to TRY to be disciplined in my packing, and only take a sensible amount - as a gauge I'm going to try to fit everything into one pair of panniers plus my other box thing that goes on top of the pannier.
> 
> Assuming I manage this, should I a) keep everything in the two back panniers or  split out the load between two back and two front panniers, although they would technically be half empty?[/quote]
> 
> I think that if you had the spare space they would not be half empty for very long, therefore stay with the two bags.


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## Achilles (15 Oct 2007)

I agree - I find kit expands to fit the space available. I get all my camping gear/clothes etc in 2 rear panniers and a bar bag. My spare tubes etc and a windproof go in the saddlebag. I carry a cargo net thingy so if I am really pushed I can fasten stuff onto the top of the rack.

Handling feels a bit odd for the first 30 mins or so but I soon get used to it.

Have to admit to never having tried front ones - but its an expensive experiment and I am sure I would just end up carrying stuff ' just in case'


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## asterix (15 Oct 2007)

Altho' I have 4 panniers I use only the two rear and an old fashioned saddle bag! They're all Carradice and the rear panniers are large with big extra pockets. In one pannier I can get a Hilleberg Nallo tent plus all the wet weather gear and then more stuff in the back pocket. Being cotton the pannier has a certain breathabilty.


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## Crackle (15 Oct 2007)

Cathryn said:


> I suppose the worry about the two pannier thing is that all the weight goes on the back wheels. I have good Mavic wheels...would they be strong enough for two panniers of clothes etc?



Get your wheels checked and trued before you go: I broke a rear axle and three spokes once and had to cycle a grinding 20 miles to the next bike shop (spokes I had but not an axle).

A handlebar bag is great for balancing out rear loads if you don't take front panniers and you can keep all you valuables in there so it's easy to slip off and carry with you. My preferred method is two rear and a handlebar bag. I have cycled with four but personally didn't like the 'dead' feeling it gave the front end, you have to try it and see. Handling will also depend on the bike as well; four panniers on a tourer are less of a problem than four on a more race oriented bike. 

Whether you take four or two panniers, make sure you leave space for buying the days food and drinks.


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## andy_wrx (15 Oct 2007)

Consider a trailer ?

The ExtraWheel is £150 inc waterproof bags 
http://www.cyclesense.co.uk/products.php?plid=m11b0s318p1681
and Edinburgh Bike Co-op do a copy of the Bob Yak for £125
http://www.edinburghbicycle.com/ebwPNLqrymode.a4p?f%5FProductID=6176&f%5FFullProductVersion=1&f%5FSupersetQRY=Ktrailer%7E2&f%5FSortOrderID=2&f%5Fbct=m003012

Easy and great fun - people stare and point at you...


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## vernon (15 Oct 2007)

Cathryn said:


> I suppose the worry about the two pannier thing is that all the weight goes on the back wheels. I have good Mavic wheels...would they be strong enough for two panniers of clothes etc?



Cathryn,

I am confident with my Mavic wheels that I'll get a significant mileage out of them before they give up on me. I weigh in at 22 stones then there's the luggage...

I've destroyed a couple of rear wheels but they do have a hard life when touring.

You are nobbut a slip of a lass


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## Bigtallfatbloke (15 Oct 2007)

I am probably nigh on at least double what you weigh...I broke just one spoke on my tour this year with a heavy camping load...and that was when I was riding off road on a rocky beach track


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## Cathryn (15 Oct 2007)

Okay, maybe I'm overworrying (wouldn't be the first time). I think there was a good point made as well that if I took more panniers I'd fill them with crap like cowbells from Switzerlnad....I think I'm going for the two. It will make me more disciplined. Thanks everyone.


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## Brock (15 Oct 2007)

That's that sorted then.. Oh, could you pick me up a cowbell while you're away?
I love the way they tonk.


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## Cathryn (15 Oct 2007)

I love alpine stuff...I suspect I'll have one dangling from my handlebars until it drives everyone mad


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## Brock (15 Oct 2007)

Actually, I've changed my mind. I've always wanted one of those alpine horns, please thankyou. Better take some spare bungees.


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## Cathryn (15 Oct 2007)

Or two spare panniers!!


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## Bigtallfatbloke (16 Oct 2007)

I'd like a cuckoo clock please


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## Tim Bennet. (16 Oct 2007)

I used to be a two pannier zealot. I believed the discipline of cramming full camping gear into just the rear panniers was good for the soul and some sort of recognition of high browed puritanical self control and denial. I would scoff at those who even had stuff on top of their racks although my real contempt was reserved for those with front panniers; - "Oi, you emigrating or what?"

But then it dawned on me it was all bollocks. Once you've got over the satisfaction of proving it can be done, it's then just a pain in the arse. It just takes too long to get everything packed in exactly the right place and there is no slack to accommodate extra treats for picnics or more supplies for wild camping, etc. Front panniers just give more flexibility and convenience. They also steady the bike up and make it far more relaxing to ride whilst looking around or reading the map.

The amount of gear you take remains under your control. You don't have to fill all the space. But ultimately, a few more kgs are not going to be as detrimental to your enjoyment as being uncomfortable, or cold, or hungry or even deprived of that cow bell.


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## Cathryn (16 Oct 2007)

Oh now I'm all undecided again. Thank goodness I have at least 8 months to dither, panic, buy everything I might need and then decide to go with what I already own!


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## asterix (16 Oct 2007)

Tim Bennet. said:


> ..or even deprived of that cow bell.




Is a cow bell necessary on a bicycle?


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## Crackle (16 Oct 2007)

asterix said:


> Is a cow bell necessary on a bicycle?



Only if it hasn't got a horn!


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## Crackle (16 Oct 2007)

Tim Bennet. said:


> I used to be a two pannier zealot. I believed the discipline of cramming full camping gear into just the rear panniers was good for the soul and some sort of recognition of high browed puritanical self control and denial. I would scoff at those who even had stuff on top of their racks although my real contempt was reserved for those with front panniers; - "Oi, you emigrating or what?"
> 
> But then it dawned on me it was all bollocks. Once you've got over the satisfaction of proving it can be done, it's then just a pain in the arse. It just takes too long to get everything packed in exactly the right place and there is no slack to accommodate extra treats for picnics or more supplies for wild camping, etc. Front panniers just give more flexibility and convenience. They also steady the bike up and make it far more relaxing to ride whilst looking around or reading the map.
> 
> The amount of gear you take remains under your control. You don't have to fill all the space. But ultimately, a few more kgs are not going to be as detrimental to your enjoyment as being uncomfortable, or cold, or hungry or even deprived of that cow bell.




I took that philosophy to the extreme: Instead of being a bike camper I ended up with a 26ft long, 7ft wide camper which took a bike! My weight increased in proportion to the vehicle I drove (big beer fridge you see) and the bike got rusty.

I'm now back to where I started.

It's a slippery slope.....


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## Bigtallfatbloke (16 Oct 2007)

On the issue of packing stuff for ease of access this is how I pack my four bags:

Rear right:
Tent and sleep mat
Clothes
Left crock

Rear left:
Sleeping bag
Clothes
Right crock

Front right:
Trangia and cooking stuff
(space for food)

Front left:
Wash stuff and towel
(space for food)

Bar Bag:
Maps, money, cards, phone, camera,torch, ipod, bits and bobs...and space for a packet of mc V's digestives!

I pack waterproof clothes on top of panniers if I think I may need them quickly.

The advantage here for me is that whenever I need a shower I just grab the left front pannier and head off to the wash rooms...everything i need is all there. Whenever I need a meal I just grab the front right pannier...it makes life easier.


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## CafGriff (20 Aug 2013)

All THis great great planning!! I'm loving reading all this tips! Knowledge is POWER!!


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## ianrauk (20 Aug 2013)

Holy thread resurrection Batman.
At near 6 years old......
is this a record?


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## vernon (20 Aug 2013)

ianrauk said:


> Holy thread resurrection Batman.
> At near 6 years old......
> is this a record?


 

Nah.

This is a record.


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## ianrauk (20 Aug 2013)

vernon said:


> Nah.
> 
> This is a record.


 


Thats's older then 2007 Vern...


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## vernon (20 Aug 2013)

ianrauk said:


> Thats's older then 2007 Vern...


 

So that makes my posting a new record.


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## ufkacbln (20 Aug 2013)

vernon said:


> So that makes my posting a new record.


I think you are mistaken - you posted an old record


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## vernon (20 Aug 2013)

Cunobelin said:


> I think you are mistaken - you posted an old record


 

You're needling me.


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## ufkacbln (20 Aug 2013)

What goes around, comes around


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## CafGriff (20 Aug 2013)

um .... am I being thick?? don't understand the record connection?!


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## ufkacbln (21 Aug 2013)

CafGriff said:


> um .... am I being thick?? don't understand the record connection?!


 
Sorry, it is a joke.

When a thread comes to the end of it's contributions and natural life it simply sits in the annalsuntil someone finds it of interest again and posts, resurrecting the thread.

This thread was last posted in 2007, which is very unusual hence the comment:



ianrauk said:


> Holy thread resurrection Batman.
> At near 6 years old......
> is this a record?


 
Meaning a record as in achievement or the thread that is the oldest one ever brought back to life

The rest is just banter and a play on the word record


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## CafGriff (21 Aug 2013)

Oh !! I guess it even beat... Brian Adams's ' Riobin Hood' theme then


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## ianrauk (21 Aug 2013)

CafGriff said:


> um .... am I being thick?? don't understand the record connection?!


 


You've resurrected a 5 year old thread and we are wondering if it's a thread resurrection record.


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## CafGriff (21 Aug 2013)

A bit like proabition!!? Started in America in the 1920's ... and coming up to modern day!??
worrying!


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## jags (21 Aug 2013)

so was it two panniers or what.


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## CafGriff (21 Aug 2013)

I'm opting for four panniers .... = more chocolate !! numm-numm


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## ufkacbln (21 Aug 2013)

jags said:


> so was it two panniers or what.


 
So long as the panniers are in pairs then it is irrelevant

It is only the acolytes of that perversion known as a "single pannier" that should be castigated.

It is an unnatural state for a bicycle.


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## jags (21 Aug 2013)

old thread i know but my choice would be rear only and barbag.
this idea that four panniers balances the bike is rubbish i dont go for that at all. done both and by far the rear is way better.not trying to start a war honest ,but imho the front panniers distroys the feel of the bike up front. you dont need them unless your going on a adventure tour across africa or some desert region where you need to carry more water food.


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## MontyVeda (21 Aug 2013)

Cunobelin said:


> So long as the panniers are in pairs then it is irrelevant
> 
> It is only the acolytes of that perversion known as a "single pannier" that should be castigated.
> 
> It is an unnatural state for a bicycle.


 
although I have four panniers.... i get most use out of just one.  sorry.


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## Gravity Aided (22 Aug 2013)

Cunobelin said:


> So long as the panniers are in pairs then it is irrelevant
> 
> It is only the acolytes of that perversion known as a "single pannier" that should be castigated.
> 
> It is an unnatural state for a bicycle.


 
I am a Thurifer on the High Sundays, and take exception to any association with single pannier cycling. And, I think I speak for the acolytes in this as well.


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## CafGriff (22 Aug 2013)

Um ... I'm still toying with the idea of 4 panniers.
I'm not looking to pack the things to their capasities but I thought of spreading the load over ALL of the bike appeals to me.
Food is the other issue, I want to be self sufficant at least for a number of mornings on between stop over points, be they camp site / B&B's or pubs. I plan on experiementing through out the winter, starting from - over the weekend camping in the garden, then over the next couple of months branching out to friends gardens, camp sites, Moors - yes! I'm considering venturing IN TO CORNWALL !!. at the mo, i just want to enjoy / experience / experiment all of this new 'cycling - camping milarie.
The jury is defo still out as to how many or which equipment to actually get.
I did however JUST purchase a Vango Banshee 200 tent today ....
An 'OHIO' tri-stool ... and a new dog treat bag for the Springador Alice today.
I raced home this morning and with Alices' help I erected the tent - within .... - oh! um ... 2 hrs!!! 
I promise to work on that. Thank God the weather was very sunny, no breeze nor  ... but scorchio!! 
I'm still living it People!!


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## mcshroom (22 Aug 2013)

Unlike jags my Dawes horizon feels like it was made for 4 panniers. Two on the back can make it a bit twitchy, but four panniers just feels remarkably comfortable and the bike livens up a bit if anything. 

Whatever you do, make sure that everything is wrapped up in waterproof bags (this doesn't have to be the panniers, carrier/food bags will do). I've been caught out before when rain came over the top of the mountains on Skye so quickly that my non-waterproof panniers were soaked before I had chance to stop and put the covers over.


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## CafGriff (22 Aug 2013)

I'd like Outleibs!! but £££££ I'm looking at Topeaks and Vaudes at the mo ....


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## vernon (22 Aug 2013)

CafGriff said:


> I'd like Outleibs!! but £££££ I'm looking at Topeaks and Vaudes at the mo ....


 

Rubble sacks used as pannier liners will make any pannier waterproof. 

Look at Carradice and Altura too.


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## mcshroom (22 Aug 2013)

My current rear panniers (pictured in my avatar) are these from Edinburgh Bicycle Coop. They are not part of a sale at the moment so a bit more expensive than they sometimes are, but they are good, big panniers.


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## oxford_guy (26 Aug 2013)

I go for 2 rear panniers, plus a bar bag, and when travelling with my wife we also share the load so that one of us has the tent (in a lightweight waterproof backpack, so can use it as a day pack too and when moving luggage when getting on trains etc.), and the other a dry bag containing both sleeping bags carried across the top of the rear rack. It's not as balanced as taking 4 panniers, but encourages you not to pack too much and it's *far* easier to deal with only 2 panniers instead of 4 when dealing with train/plane connections...


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## ufkacbln (26 Aug 2013)

My wife shares the load, by me taking a trailer!

]


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## Gravity Aided (26 Aug 2013)

Nice Trailer. I've got 2 builds coming up this autumn, and your trailer has a nice elegance to it.


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## ufkacbln (26 Aug 2013)

Gravity Aided said:


> Nice Trailer. I've got 2 builds coming up this autumn, and your trailer has a nice elegance to it.


Standard Carry Freedom Y frame, small size


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## oxford_guy (26 Aug 2013)

Cunobelin said:


> My wife shares the load, by me taking a trailer!
> 
> ]


 
I assume from that picture that's your entire luggage for both you and your wife! If not, I think I must travel much lighter than you!


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## CafGriff (27 Aug 2013)

nice bike Hun!! It looks 'clean' and balanced. I'm torn at the mo between Ortleibs and Alteras 
I'll need waterproofness, capacity and look ( visibility ) 
I'm swaying towards having 4 pannies with the two rear obviously being 40 litres and a dry bag thing on the top og the back rack. I've already got a hand bar bag. ( not too clever on this e computer thing, don't know yet, how to attach pictures ... but will eventually ) 
I've seen some panniers on Amazon, that is written up as 'waterproof' and when I nread into the description it then states ' can't guarrentee absolute waterproofness' ...  well why advertise it as water - flippin' - proof then ??!!


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## CafGriff (27 Aug 2013)

mcshroom said:


> My current rear panniers (pictured in my avatar) are these from Edinburgh Bicycle Coop. They are not part of a sale at the moment so a bit more expensive than they sometimes are, but they are good, big panniers.


Yep. I've looked at some bags from Edinburgh. I've ordered a front pannier carrier from them. There's a red set, that looks too small but the write up states they are 20 litre bags each, and at a fraction of the cost of Ort's and Alt's !!


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## Cycleops (27 Aug 2013)

CafGriff said:


> ( not too clever on this e computer thing, don't know yet, how to attach pictures ... but will eventually )


 
Just click on "Upload a file" and then choose from a storage option on your computer. Once there select a pic and click on "Open". Assuming you are using windows.


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## willem (27 Aug 2013)

In my experience you do not need more than two rear panniers (plus bar bag) on a European tour. The (often dirty and wet) tent goes on top of the rack in its own bag. This will not often work on an extended tour in the third world, but In Europe I have easily succeeded, even into the colder season and in more remote areas. You save the combined 2-2.5 kg weight of front panniers and a front rack weight, and you save a lot of money. Put that to good lightweight gear. I love Ortlieb panniers for their rugged quality, but I hate the weight. These http://www.outdoorworks.de/index.php?prod=7337&vid=86748&function=set_lang&lang=en are a special edition of the Plus version, without the frills, and therefore cheaper and lighter. Price here is for one.
Willem


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## Gravity Aided (27 Aug 2013)

Vernon's previous post points to rubble sacks, used as pannier liners, will make the panniers waterproof, which may help the budget minded. I still favor the four panniers method due to being able to carry more weight up front and not over the rear wheel where spoke breakage, especially on the drive side, may occur . Too much weight in the front, or up too high, as in a bar bag, tends to make my bicycle a bit too twitchy for my tastes, and I intend to convert to low-rider front panniers at the earliest possible opportunity to improve handling on the bicycle even more. I need to quit dreaming up winter projects now.


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## willem (27 Aug 2013)

In my experience the best way to improve the handling and stability of a touring bike is to reduce the load. My rear wheel luggage load is never more than 15 kg, and often only 10 kg. I have not broken a spoke for ages (a good handbuilt wheel helps).


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## just jim (27 Aug 2013)

I just "liked" a 6 year old post. Is this a record?


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## vernon (28 Aug 2013)

CafGriff said:


> Yep. I've looked at some bags from Edinburgh. I've ordered a front pannier carrier from them. There's a red set, that looks too small but the write up states they are 20 litre bags each, and at a fraction of the cost of Ort's and Alt's !!


 

Think very carefully about your future plans regarding cycle touring before making a purchase. If LEJOG is the main focus with just occasional use afterwards there is no point in purchasing top of the range panniers. I made do with a set of Halfords panniers for the first four years of cycle camping during which time I did LEJOG, JOGLE, Channel to the Mediterranean, several coast to coast rides and single pannier use on forty or fifty 100km audaxes. They were still functional when I sold them on Ebay and purchase some used Altura panniers which in turn were sold on when I finally settled for Carradice panniers. I use rubble sacks purchased from B&Q to guarantee waterproofness. I've never had wet pannier contents in over ten years of cycle touring. 

You can get by with two panniers if you are disciplined with what you take. You could augment carrying capacity by putting your tent on the rack top instead of in one of the panniers. You might also consider purchasing a decent sized saddlebag like the Carradice Long Camper instead of purchasing front panniers.


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## BigonaBianchi (28 Aug 2013)

I also have carradice overlanders...rubble sack inside..


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## CafGriff (28 Aug 2013)

Cycleops said:


> Just click on "Upload a file" and then choose from a storage option on your computer. Once there select a pic and click on "Open". Assuming you are using windows.


Lovely!! I shall try that this moring!!


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## CafGriff (28 Aug 2013)

Cycleops said:


> Just click on "Upload a file" and then choose from a storage option on your computer. Once there select a pic and click on "Open". Assuming you are using windows.


Hello again Camera Guru!! Did the above, but when I was setting up my Album for the public scruoot-un-knee, the message I as getting was that the picture / image /file? was too big!  Help!!


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## CafGriff (28 Aug 2013)

willem said:


> In my experience you do not need more than two rear panniers (plus bar bag) on a European tour. The (often dirty and wet) tent goes on top of the rack in its own bag. This will not often work on an extended tour in the third world, but In Europe I have easily succeeded, even into the colder season and in more remote areas. You save the combined 2-2.5 kg weight of front panniers and a front rack weight, and you save a lot of money. Put that to good lightweight gear. I love Ortlieb panniers for their rugged quality, but I hate the weight. These http://www.outdoorworks.de/index.php?prod=7337&vid=86748&function=set_lang&lang=en are a special edition of the Plus version, without the frills, and therefore cheaper and lighter. Price here is for one.
> Willem


Hey!! I checked out the outdoor site. The front Ort's = sold out !! I'll try on another site . Fanx anyway!


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## Cycleops (28 Aug 2013)

Sorry, I should have warned you about that. You need a tool that can reduce the file size. You may have one included somewhere on your computer but failing that try SIR (simple image re-sizer). You can down load it from here http://sir.projet-libre.org/?page=download Select the latest version for OS (assume windows) and download. It will be a bit slow to open but it is quite simple to use. You can select to reduce your pic by size or by percentage. Good luck.


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## CafGriff (28 Aug 2013)

Cycleops said:


> Sorry, I should have warned you about that. You need a tool that can reduce the file size. You may have one included somewhere on your computer but failing that try SIR (simple image re-sizer). You can down load it from here http://sir.projet-libre.org/?page=download Select the latest version for OS (assume windows) and download. It will be a bit slow to open but it is quite simple to use. You can select to reduce your pic by size or by percentage. Good luck.


Cheers babe! I'll let U know ... or let U view the latest.


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## Gravity Aided (28 Aug 2013)

I commonly use 640 x 480 pixels, but they will do larger pictures. 640 x 480 was the old VGA screen resolution. Seems to work out all right here.


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## oxford_guy (28 Aug 2013)

CafGriff said:


> nice bike Hun!! It looks 'clean' and balanced. I'm torn at the mo between Ortleibs and Alteras
> I'll need waterproofness, capacity and look ( visibility )
> I'm swaying towards having 4 pannies with the two rear obviously being 40 litres and a dry bag thing on the top og the back rack. I've already got a hand bar bag. ( not too clever on this e computer thing, don't know yet, how to attach pictures ... but will eventually )
> I've seen some panniers on Amazon, that is written up as 'waterproof' and when I nread into the description it then states ' can't guarrentee absolute waterproofness' ...  well why advertise it as water - flippin' - proof then ??!!


 
Have you considered Vaude Aqua's?: http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/categ...ct/review-vaude-aqua-back-plus-panniers-33924

I have these and they're superb, I prefer them to the Ortliebs (which I've also used) have they have a stronger back and the rolled up top clips neatly to each side of the pannier. Very robust, have stood up to 5 years of abuse with no complaints


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## CafGriff (29 Aug 2013)

ok Gang!! I'm looking at panniers and carriers. I'm looking at Ortleibs = £££'s and Altura's = ££'s and Vaude's = £'s .... then I fall across Arvenir bike bags for £28 !!!!! ... I would VERY much like feedback, this seems just TOO good douncha think!!??


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## willem (29 Aug 2013)

Our Ortlieb's have happily survived not only tours, but also fifteen years of daily abuse.
Willem


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## CafGriff (29 Aug 2013)

Ha!! Thank you for that. I think I am swinging towards them u know!!
It's just that there are so many panniers on the market and on so many sites, with so many differing ( but the same ) prices, it's the measurements that are some what confusing. The trouble is I don't know anyone with these items and without 'hands on' ... small pictures on a screen mean not too much to me!
I'm an old fashion buyer really ... I'd like to be able to feel the thing / bit the things / visually see what / how / if things will fit in the compartment




willem said:


> Our Ortlieb's have happily survived not only tours, but also fifteen years of daily abuse.
> Willem


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## MontyVeda (29 Aug 2013)

i was going through the same thing... ortleibs seemed far too expensive, but i ended up going for them. The moment they arrived i knew it was money well spent and can't see myself replacing them for the rest of my cycling life.


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## Gravity Aided (30 Aug 2013)

I think there are some youtube videos out there, showing them.


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## psmiffy (30 Aug 2013)

I think I have 11 serviceable panniers – (the odd one is a briefcase) predominantly altura – heavy but have always served me well both for durability and waterproofness despite much abuse – my pannier of choice is 56l – and for touring I limit myself to four – I’m of the camp that believes that four is a better balance on the bike – the only tour that I used two on I was uncomfortable on decent hills – having four lets me put in a decent effort when the hills are relatively short and very steep – and on the longer slogs and fast descents the bike is not twitchy at low speeds –ive never used a bar bag so I don’t know how that comes into the equation – I tend to pack the rear panniers to the brim with stuff I don’t need during the day – the front panniers are for stuff I might want – and space for collecting food – that’s not too say that’s the limit of my luggage – tent goes on top of the rack - along with waterproofs and odd bits of warm clothing that I might need during the day depending on how the weather changes


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## Gravity Aided (30 Aug 2013)

That is another thing about 4 panniers- you have room for things collected and found.


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## Crackle (30 Aug 2013)

It looks like you've accidentally cycled through a laundry Smiffy.


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## Hitchington (30 Aug 2013)

"4 panniers good, 2 panniers bad" George Orwell


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## Gravity Aided (30 Aug 2013)

"All panniers are created equal, but some panniers are more equal than others" _George Orwell_


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## CafGriff (30 Aug 2013)

psmiffy said:


> I think I have 11 serviceable panniers – (the odd one is a briefcase) predominantly altura – heavy but have always served me well both for durability and waterproofness despite much abuse – my pannier of choice is 56l – and for touring I limit myself to four – I’m of the camp that believes that four is a better balance on the bike – the only tour that I used two on I was uncomfortable on decent hills – having four lets me put in a decent effort when the hills are relatively short and very steep – and on the longer slogs and fast descents the bike is not twitchy at low speeds –ive never used a bar bag so I don’t know how that comes into the equation – I tend to pack the rear panniers to the brim with stuff I don’t need during the day – the front panniers are for stuff I might want – and space for collecting food – that’s not too say that’s the limit of my luggage – tent goes on top of the rack - along with waterproofs and odd bits of warm clothing that I might need during the day depending on how the weather changes
> View attachment 28529


 
Hi Psmiffy!! yep I shall be going with the 4 in number, thank you for the input.
I shall be making a purchase hopfully next month.


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## CafGriff (30 Aug 2013)

Gravity Aided said:


> "All panniers are created equal, but some panniers are more equal than others" _George Orwell_


Grav. Aid. ?? Did He really say that???


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## Gravity Aided (31 Aug 2013)

I believe actually the reference is to Animal Farm, whence the pigs start revising the Principles of Animalism written on the side of the barn. "All animals are created equal, but some are more equal than others." Hitchingtons' quote is also from Animal Farm, hence the reference. If you would take the semi autobiographical "Down and Out in Paris and London", one might think Orwell(or Eric Blair) more of a walker than a cyclist.


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