# SS Disc Hubs



## EasyPeez (31 Oct 2017)

Just having a browse at components with an eye on a possible wheel build for my single speed disc brake bike next year, and wondered what people riding similar use and would recommend. The bike will mainly be used for commuting so good bearings, general durability and ease of maintenance are my priorities, a bit of bling would be nice for when I get the bike out at a weekend, if it fits in my price range (prob around £300-400 total for the build).

Common sense suggests a flip-flop hub would be incompatible with disc brakes, so is it fair to assume the only way to have fixed and SS options with disc brakes is 2 wheelsets? 

Also, not that weight is a major issue, but the SS hubs I'm looking at that list weights seem quite hefty, even in comparison to the not exactly ultra lightweight Hope RS4 hubs on my road bike (e.g Hope Pro 4 Trial rear hub is nearly double the weight, Chris Kings ISO - not that I'd be splashing that much - are 100g heavier) - are SS hubs generally heavier, and if so why is this?

Cheers,

Andy


----------



## Threevok (31 Oct 2017)

The Hope one is heavier, because of all the gubbings (spacers) they add to be the same width as a normal hub, and to center the hub more, due to the difference in the dishing. Despite this (as far as I know) it's basically the same hub as a normal 135mm Pro 4

I didn't bother with the single speed specific one myself. You have to use spacers anyway, so just I used the normal one with my own spacers

Unless you are bothered with the dishing of the wheel, I see little point


----------



## Yellow Saddle (31 Oct 2017)

Here's rule number one of acquiring good wheels.

Whenever you are inquiring about finding lightweight wheel components you should know that you are not acting in your best interest.

Here's rule number two.

Lightweight wheels are always inferior to wheels designed for durability, reliability, standardisation and low cost of ownership.

Here's rule number three.

Even the colour of the components is more important than weight.

Rule number four.

Only drug dealers care about grams.

Now, why are SS hubs heavier? Mostly because they have hefty thick solid steel axles and bolts holding them in place. Secondly, if they are of teh Hope type that uses a shortened cassette-type freehub, the freehub body is made from stainless steel rather than aluminium.


----------



## EasyPeez (31 Oct 2017)

Yellow Saddle said:


> Here's rule number one of acquiring good wheels.
> 
> Whenever you are inquiring about finding lightweight wheel components you should know that you are not acting in your best interest.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the explanation. You'll note that weight wasn't one of my priorities for the hub, I was merely surprised to see what I thought to be more of less the same hub weighing twice the amount in single speed guise, when I had naivley assumed single speed hubs would be broadly similar in construction. 

Would you concur with @Threevok 's point or do you consider the wheel dishing to be important enough to make a single speed hub worth using?


----------



## Yellow Saddle (31 Oct 2017)

EasyPeez said:


> Thanks for the explanation. You'll note that weight wasn't one of my priorities for the hub, I was merely surprised to see what I thought to be more of less the same hub weighing twice the amount in single speed guise, when I had naivley assumed single speed hubs would be broadly similar in construction.
> 
> Would you concur with @Threevok 's point or do you consider the wheel dishing to be important enough to make a single speed hub worth using?


Wheel dishing is totally irrelevant on bikes other than BMXs. Billions of dished bikes have been built and used up and dishing is still a non-issue. Your decisions should therefore not hinge on dishing. 
There are good reasons to avoid hubs that accept screw-on sprockets and hubs that accept splined sprockets are much better. If you are going to use spacers with standard thin steel sprockets, better get one with steel splines. I like the Hope hub for this application because it has a sensible freehub body, it can accept up to three sprockets so you can fiddle with gearing if you so wish and, it can be converted back into a standard multi-sprocket setup later on when the fad fades.


----------



## Sharky (31 Oct 2017)

With fixed, you dont need a rear brake, so maybe you could just flip the wheel?

But need to check your hub width. most flip flops are 120's.


----------



## Threevok (31 Oct 2017)

Yellow Saddle said:


> Wheel dishing is totally irrelevant on bikes other than BMXs. Billions of dished bikes have been built and used up and dishing is still a non-issue. Your decisions should therefore not hinge on dishing.
> There are good reasons to avoid hubs that accept screw-on sprockets and hubs that accept splined sprockets are much better. If you are going to use spacers with standard thin steel sprockets, better get one with steel splines. I like the Hope hub for this application because it has a sensible freehub body, it can accept up to three sprockets so you can fiddle with gearing if you so wish and, it can be converted back into a standard multi-sprocket setup later on when the fad fades.



Indeed, and is exactly why I decided to use a normal Pro-4 hub with a steel freewheel.

Besides, what's the point of having a bike that can be converted easily from SS to geared, if the rear hub can't ?

BTW : the reason I mentioned dishing was because of a blinding argument (that may still be going on AFAIK) on one of the U.S single-speed forums, on that very subject.

I suppose if you are Danny Mcaskilk you may care about such things


----------



## Pale Rider (31 Oct 2017)

I can't help with wheels, but I do suggest you have a bike with a brake on both of them.

Front only is legal, sure, but if you are involved in a crash what officialdom wants to see is a well-maintained bicycle with two brakes - it just gets you off on the right foot if there's blame to be apportioned.

Might not matter for weekend only use, but this bike is going to be a commuter, used in a town, day in, day out.

Northing to stop you having a disc on the front and a rim brake on the back.


----------



## EasyPeez (1 Nov 2017)

Pale Rider said:


> I can't help with wheels, but I do suggest you have a bike with a brake on both of them.
> 
> Front only is legal, sure, but if you are involved in a crash what officialdom wants to see is a well-maintained bicycle with two brakes - it just gets you off on the right foot if there's blame to be apportioned.
> 
> ...



Yeah, taking off the rear brake was never in my thoughts; I'm happy to stick with single speed for the forseeable. Simplicity of maintenance was my main reason for getting the bike as a winter commuter. Having the option to try fixed now and again would have been interesting, but I'm happy to leave that for now. I might pick up a secondhand fixed gear wheel at some point in the future if I see one at a reasonable price. If that does happen I'll ride without a rear brake but only on the odd quiet weekend ride in the countryside or the new cycle circuit in Hull.



Threevok said:


> exactly why I decided to use a normal Pro-4 hub with a steel freewheel.


Out of interest, do you know how many spacers you have on? And what brand of rear sprocket do you favour?


----------



## Threevok (1 Nov 2017)

EasyPeez said:


> Out of interest, do you know how many spacers you have on? And what brand of rear sprocket do you favour?



I bought a set of spacers from VeloSolo ( I needed Gold but they do all sorts of colours). They are all different sizes, which helps getting the correct chainline. 

I have quite a collection of sprockets (from 12-21 teeth) all are Gusset SS, except the 15 (Shimano) and 21 (Surley)

The Gussets are cheap as chips, but the higher you go (past 18t) they get expensive

Here's a pic set up for 30/21 ratio, showing the spacers etc.








If you are going down this route, use a steel freewheel, not alloy as sprockets can gouge the hell out of them

You will also need a 12t lockring.

All here http://www.velosolo.co.uk/shopsingle.html although other shops are available


----------



## EasyPeez (1 Nov 2017)

Threevok said:


> They are all different sizes, which helps getting the correct chainline.


I can't tell from the pic but I assume you have some spacers on the inside between sprocket and hub as well as the ones I can see? And re: correct chainline, would this be as straight as possible, and just something you judge by eye and feel rather than tool?



Threevok said:


> 30/21 ratio


Wow - some big hills where you live?!



Threevok said:


> I have quite a collection of sprockets (from 12-21 teeth) all are Gusset SS


I didn't realise you could get that range. I was looking at some the other day and they seemed to start at 16t upwards. Good to know.



Threevok said:


> If you are going down this route, use a steel freewheel


Sorry for all the naive questions - I'm confused about what a freewheel is now - do you mean freehub? As in get a hub with a steel splined freehub such as the Hope Pro4? 
I was recommended White Industries sprockets by someone else, but I see WI also call them freewheels...They are also a heck of a lot more expensive than the Gusset sprockets! Are the two significantly different in some way?
http://www.whiteind.com/new-page/

Thanks.


----------



## Threevok (2 Nov 2017)

EasyPeez said:


> I can't tell from the pic but I assume you have some spacers on the inside between sprocket and hub as well as the ones I can see? And re: correct chainline, would this be as straight as possible, and just something you judge by eye and feel rather than tool?



Yes, there are spacers on the inside as well as the outside. If you look at the pictures at the link I gave you, they illustrate it better

As for Chainline - there are some rather expensive tools (some worth more than the bike) to get it bang on. However, doing it by eye - or a straight edge - like a rule between the Sprocket and the chainring (before installing the chain) will suffice.



EasyPeez said:


> Wow - some big hills where you live?!



Don't let that fool you. The bike is currently setup (30/21) for hill climbing in muddy conditions. Normal MTB I usually use between 32/18 and 32/16. For summer commutes on this bike I use 34/14






EasyPeez said:


> I didn't realise you could get that range. I was looking at some the other day and they seemed to start at 16t upwards. Good to know.



The ones that fit onto existing Shimano freehubs are indeed cheap, long lasting and widely available - up to 18t. After that you start paying through the nose. I think I paid just over £20 for the Surly 21t one




EasyPeez said:


> Sorry for all the naive questions - I'm confused about what a freewheel is now - do you mean freehub? As in get a hub with a steel splined freehub such as the Hope Pro4?



Yes, sorry I meant freehub - and yes, just like the ones you get on the Pro4. Make sure you get the correct splined one though. Shimano sprockets won't fit on SRAM Freehubs and vica versa




EasyPeez said:


> I was recommended White Industries sprockets by someone else, but I see WI also call them freewheels...They are also a heck of a lot more expensive than the Gusset sprockets! Are the two significantly different in some way?
> http://www.whiteind.com/new-page/
> 
> Thanks.



These are a different kettle of fish. These are freewheels and sprockets all rolled into one (Like you get on a BMX) and screw directly onto a compatible hub. They will not fit onto conventional Hope hubs with freehubs. It can also be very expensive if you intend to change the rear ratio quite a lot.

Please note that everything I have said is regarding my own MTB setup. Ratios for road bikes can be very different, although the principle is much the same.

There's a good FAQ here

http://velosolo.co.uk/faq.html


----------



## Dan B (2 Nov 2017)

Pale Rider said:


> I can't help with wheels, but I do suggest you have a bike with a brake on both of them.
> 
> Front only is legal, sure, but if you are involved in a crash what officialdom wants to see is a well-maintained bicycle with two brakes - it just gets you off on the right foot if there's blame to be apportioned.


Rear brake is occasionally even useful - for example, when you want (or need) to slow down while signalling to turn right.


----------



## Sharky (7 Nov 2017)

Dan B said:


> Rear brake is occasionally even useful - for example, when you want (or need) to slow down while signalling to turn right.


The convention for fixed bikes with just a single front brake is, or used to be, is to have the lever on the left for the very reason you mention.


----------



## EasyPeez (7 Nov 2017)

Threevok said:


> Yes, there are spacers on the inside as well as the outside. If you look at the pictures at the link I gave you, they illustrate it better
> 
> As for Chainline - there are some rather expensive tools (some worth more than the bike) to get it bang on. However, doing it by eye - or a straight edge - like a rule between the Sprocket and the chainring (before installing the chain) will suffice.
> 
> ...



Thanks for all your help. Feel much more confident going forward now. Cheers.


----------



## EasyPeez (8 Nov 2017)

Threevok said:


> These are a different kettle of fish. These are freewheels and sprockets all rolled into one (Like you get on a BMX) and screw directly onto a compatible hub. They will not fit onto conventional Hope hubs with freehubs.



I'm not sure if you or @Yellow Saddle will know, but my current stock rear hub is listed as 
Rear Hub KT-SY1F / KT-MX7R 6-Bolt Disc

and rear sprocket as
Cassette Shimano SF-MX30 18T

Forgetting about a new wheel build for the moment, if I wanted to change the gearing on my current wheel, would my hub be one of the type you mention that are compatible with a screw on freewheel? And so something akin to the WI freewheel (or a cheaper alternative) would be the way forward in that respect?

Cheers.


----------



## Pale Rider (8 Nov 2017)

Changing the gearing would bring the vexatious question of chain length and tension into play.

Vexatious because almost inevitably shortening or lengthening the chain by a link - one inch - will be too much or too little.

Your nice new mudguards mean you have limited axle movement in the dropouts, and in any case you don't want to have to realign the 'guard even if there is space because it's such a fiddly job.

All this is leading to the fitting of a single speed chain tensioner.

It's a shame to add something to what is a pared down bike, but a tensioner would allow you to experiment with gearing, and allow you to take up a bit of slack when the chain wears, all without messing around with mudguard and wheel alignment.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=c...UEyqQKHRM-C7IQ9QEI1AIwBA#imgrc=RgMQr5Cj5cciyM:


----------



## EasyPeez (8 Nov 2017)

Pale Rider said:


> Changing the gearing would bring the vexatious question of chain length and tension into play.
> 
> Vexatious because almost inevitably shortening or lengthening the chain by a link - one inch - will be too much or too little.



Damn it. Nothing's ever simple with this 'creating the perfect bike' lark, is it? And this being supposedly one of the simplest of all forms of bike!
Is there a simple way of working out what having two less teeth on the freewheel would mean in terms of necessary alteration to chain length?



Pale Rider said:


> All this is leading to the fitting of a single speed chain tensioner.



Forgive my ignorance, but I'm not sure what the tensioner would achieve that I can't currently manage by sliding my wheel backwards or forwards in the dropouts to alter chain tension and tightening up the little securing bolts that stop it pulling forward under force?

That said, I do currently have my axle almost as far back in the dropouts as it will go so very little room for manoeuvre in that direction...


----------



## Pale Rider (8 Nov 2017)

EasyPeez said:


> Damn it. Nothing's ever simple with this 'creating the perfect bike' lark, is it? And this being supposedly one of the simplest of all forms of bike!
> Is there a simple way of working out what having two less teeth on the freewheel would mean in terms of necessary alteration to chain length?
> 
> 
> ...



The chain tensioner has the same effect as moving the axle forwards and backwards - taking up slack in the chain - but the tensioner allows you a far greater range of movement than the drop outs.

And as I mentioned, your axle movement is even more restricted because of the mudguard.

I'm not aware of a method of calculating chain length when changing sprocket size.

Another advantage of the chain tensioner is you wouldn't have to break or alter the chain to accommodate a range of sprocket sizes.

You can run the chain above or below the pulley as well as swiveling the tensioner itself, which makes chain length not so critical - you can take up a lot of slack one way or another.


----------



## EasyPeez (8 Nov 2017)

Thanks for the explanation. I only see myself needing 2 sizes of rear sprocket and won't need to swap between them very often. I've yet to get my head around the ss chain and how ss split links work, but assuming they're as simple to break and refit as my 10 speed chains I'd rather do that from time to time than use one of those tensioners.

I think a couple of people on here run the extra sprocket size I'm after so I'll enquire a bit more into it and see how they went about finding the right chain length.

If it turns out a tensioner is the best solution then I'll go with one of those.

Cheers.


----------



## Pale Rider (8 Nov 2017)

Hopefully you won't need a tensioner for two close sizes of sprocket, although you might be surprised how much difference one link makes.

I had a similar problem changing a sprocket on an Alfine 11 hub gear bike, the chain was too short, but putting one link in made it way too long for the range available in the dropout.

Which, of course, is why the bicycle gods created half-link chains.

Another thought, assuming lengths can be made to work, is to have a chain with each sprocket.

You then only have to break and join at each sprocket change rather than break, lengthen/shorten, and then join.


----------



## Threevok (9 Nov 2017)

Just to throw a spanner in the works (or rather an additional chaining) there's always the option of a "Ghost Ring" as an alternative to a tensioner.

This sometimes works for road SS although I wouldn't recommend it for off road use (although some have done it)

It also has the added benefit of confusing the hell out of anyone who sees it.







http://rollinginboston.bostonbiker....-a-single-speed-or-internally-geared-bicycle/


----------



## EasyPeez (9 Nov 2017)

Pale Rider said:


> Another thought, assuming lengths can be made to work, is to have a chain with each sprocket.


This is my preferred option. Then presumably the chain and sprocket should wear in tandem too, so avoiding mismatched components.



Pale Rider said:


> Which, of course, is why the bicycle gods created half-link chains.


Aren't these crap though? The internet tells me that they are mostly for posers, weigh a ton and wear out very quickly.

@Threevok - do you have a chain for each sprocket, or use a tensioner or ghost ring? And is there a calculation to work out what length chain is best suited to a gearing combo (i.e if I want to run 42/16 can I tell in advance how many links I would want in my chain) or is it trial and error?


----------



## Threevok (9 Nov 2017)

EasyPeez said:


> @Threevok - do you have a chain for each sprocket, or use a tensioner or ghost ring? And is there a calculation to work out what length chain is best suited to a gearing combo (i.e if I want to run 42/16 can I tell in advance how many links I would want in my chain) or is it trial and error?



I am lucky, whereas my bike has swapouts (drop outs that enable the bike to be converted between vertical to horizontal dropouts). So I use the the horizontal dropouts and the same size chain for all - I just move the wheel back and fore accordingly and use chain tugs where necessary. Obviously, there are some combos where my existing chain would be too long or short.

For you however, that may not be possible, as I suspect you do not have horizontal dropouts.

In which case, I suggest a wheel tensioner.

Planet X do a good conversion kit and tensioners too

https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/SKOOSSKK/on-one-singlespeed-converter-kit

https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/FSOOSSD/on-one-doofer-singlespeed-chain-tensioner

What frame did you say you had ?

PS : here's a good link calculator

http://www.machinehead-software.co.uk/bike/chain_length/chainlengthcalc.html


----------



## EasyPeez (9 Nov 2017)

Threevok said:


> I am lucky, whereas my bike has swapouts (drop outs that enable the bike to be converted between vertical to horizontal dropouts). So I use the the horizontal dropouts and the same size chain for all - I just move the wheel back and fore accordingly and use chain tugs where necessary. Obviously, there are some combos where my existing chain would be too long or short.
> 
> For you however, that may not be possible, as I suspect you do not have horizontal dropouts.
> 
> ...



The frame is a steel Genesis Day One and I have horizontal dropouts - 






As you can see I can't go much further back with the axle. I assume dropping 2 teeth from the rear cog would mean needing to pull the axle back further to take up the extra chain slack, so if I can't do that then I guess I would need to use a shorter chain length.

Which I'm happy to do. A chain per sprocket is fine by me, as I'll only be running 2 sprockets and changing them very rarely. I'm keen to avoid a tensioner if possible.

Thanks for the link to the chain length calculator. I guess I need to select 'fixed/cocoa tin gears' (wtf?!) from the drop down options, even though I'm not running fixed? And measure the chainstay from the very end to where it meets the bottom bracket?


----------



## dave r (9 Nov 2017)

EasyPeez said:


> This is my preferred option. Then presumably the chain and sprocket should wear in tandem too, so avoiding mismatched components.
> 
> 
> Aren't these crap though? The internet tells me that they are mostly for posers, weigh a ton and wear out very quickly.
> ...



I have one male/female half link in the chain on my fixed, it enables me to position the back wheel where I want it. I have my rear wheel a lot further forwards than the wheel in the picture in the post above.


----------



## Threevok (9 Nov 2017)

Ah yes

A Dingle Speed

Double front and back cogs. I've been meaning to toy with that

to answer the OP's question

It's best to place your back wheel as far forward as possible, cut the chain nearest damn it to the length required to take up most of the slack, then use your chain tugs to tighten as required.

Should you then drop a tooth or two on the back, you should still (up to a point) have enough scope to take up the additional slack.

As you get fitter, put a bigger front ring on, move the wheel forward and start again


----------



## Elybazza61 (9 Nov 2017)

Just get Hope hubs cos they are


----------



## EasyPeez (9 Nov 2017)

User said:


> If you want a single speed bike, and to be able to change the gearing, there are solutions. You can have two cogs on the freehub, and two chainrings.



Interesting. I'd never heard of that. I don't think I'll go down that route though. The point of getting a SS was for its overall simplicity and ease of cleaning after a week of commuting in bad weather. I'm happy to have 2 chains and two sprockets, with just one sprocket on the bike at a time, as I won't need to change the gearing very often at all.



Threevok said:


> It's best to place your front wheel as far forward as possible


back wheel? 

Thanks for explaining. When you say as far forward as possible - not all the way forward though, eh? As it's necessary to leave some room for sliding the axle further forward in order to slip the chain off when fixing punctures etc, right? My mudguard also limits how far forward I can slide the axle. Though granted I could def pull it forward quite a bit from where it is now, if the chain were shorter.



Threevok said:


> cut the chain nearest damn it to the length required to take up most of the slack


That chain calculator tells me that for my new 16t sprocket I'll need either 49 or 50 links in my chain, depending on how accurately I've measured the chainstay. If you were me would you cut the new chain down to, say, 52 links (to leave room for error), try it out, and then take out an extra link or two if there's still too much slack?



Elybazza61 said:


> Just get Hope hubs cos they are



I likely will in the medium-long term, but I'm currently having some wheels built for my road bike (on Hope RS4s), so a second handbuilt set for the SS commuter are not on the cards right now. Meanwhile I'm spinning out at 19mph and the bearings in my stock Shimano freewheel are clunking, so I need to get a new sprocket and chain for now.

Cheers.


----------



## Threevok (10 Nov 2017)

EasyPeez said:


> back wheel?



Yes, sorry



EasyPeez said:


> Thanks for explaining. When you say as far forward as possible - not all the way forward though, eh? As it's necessary to leave some room for sliding the axle further forward in order to slip the chain off when fixing punctures etc, right? My mudguard also limits how far forward I can slide the axle. Though granted I could def pull it forward quite a bit from where it is now, if the chain were shorter.



As I said, as far as possible




EasyPeez said:


> That chain calculator tells me that for my new 16t sprocket I'll need either 49 or 50 links in my chain, depending on how accurately I've measured the chainstay. If you were me would you cut the new chain down to, say, 52 links (to leave room for error), try it out, and then take out an extra link or two if there's still too much slack?



Yes - but you don't really need a calculator

Don't overthink it - it's trial and error (very little error)

Install your chosen Chainring
Install your largest chosen sprocket
Put your rear wheel forward as far as you can
Install your new chain, measuring as you go, to see how much to cut off

Everything else (chainline and slack) is fine tuning


----------



## EasyPeez (10 Nov 2017)

Threevok said:


> Yes, sorry
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, I think I'm just over-thinking it because I've never done it before and I plan to stick with the same chainring but lose teeth on the sprocket. Which, given that I can't really pull the axle any further back than I currently have it, means I'll need a shorter chain. Which is fine, but I just don't want to over-shorten it and then have to put links back in, if I can avoid it.

My current chain seems to have a quick link actually, though it seems to be different from the ones I'm used to using with my 10 speed chains, so I need to fathom how that works and if I can fit one to the new chain once I've bought and shortened it.

Cheers.


----------



## 3narf (4 Dec 2017)

Threevok said:


> Just to throw a spanner in the works (or rather an additional chaining) there's always the option of a "Ghost Ring" as an alternative to a tensioner.
> 
> This sometimes works for road SS although I wouldn't recommend it for off road use (although some have done it)
> 
> ...



Wow, I wonder who first thought of that? Just remember not to use a biopace ring!


----------

