# Article from a lorry driver who hit a cyclist



## sabian92 (15 Nov 2012)

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cyclesafety/article3307814.ece

Beeping at every cyclist sounds dangerous to be honest, it's terrifying. Feel quite sorry for him though - he genuinely wasn't at fault by the sounds of it.


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## Steve Saunders (15 Nov 2012)

I've had a few cars and one bus toot just as they were in the process of overtaking me. I knew they were approaching as I could hear them, and from glancing over my shoulder, and it still scared the crap out of me. I almost ended up in a hedge when the bus did it, when it was raining.

I appreciate that most of them are probably only alerting to their presense (the occasional idiot doing it for a laugh excepted) but it does put that extra bit of doubt in your head.


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## sabian92 (15 Nov 2012)

Steve Saunders said:


> I've had a few cars and one bus toot just as they were in the process of overtaking me. I knew they were approaching as I could hear them, and from glancing over my shoulder, and it still scared the crap out of me. I almost ended up in a hedge when the bus did it, when it was raining.
> 
> I appreciate that most of them are probably only alerting to their presense (the occasional idiot doing it for a laugh excepted) but it does put that extra bit of doubt in your head.


 
I had a Range Rover do it to me as it was overtaking me but he started it as he got level with me. New shorts please! 

I can understand why but generally if you can't see or hear a lorry you probably should be at home or if you go out, have a carer with you. They aren't really easily missed.


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## gaz (15 Nov 2012)

It's not something I'm a fan of, but you can't blame this guy for doing it after what he has been through.


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## byegad (15 Nov 2012)

Using the horn can be seen/heard as a threat.


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## Banjo (15 Nov 2012)

I believe that vehicles should be fitted with a second not so loud more friendly sounding horn /bell or whatever purely used to warn cyclists pedestrians etc. The normal horn could still be in the center of the steering wheel for emergency use.

I have heard that Boris Johnson is campaigning for something similar.


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## MontyVeda (15 Nov 2012)

nowt wrong with a driver sounding their horn to alert another road user to their presence... isn't this what horns are for?

this is what they seem to do when i was in turkey... every car would beep the car in front before passing them... took some getting used to, but maybe us Brits are too horn-shy.


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## Crankarm (15 Nov 2012)

sabian92 said:


> http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cyclesafety/article3307814.ece
> 
> Beeping at every cyclist sounds dangerous to be honest, it's terrifying. Feel quite sorry for him though - he genuinely wasn't at fault by the sounds of it.


 

Maybe. We haven't heard from the cyclist. There are always two sides to a story. Sounding his truck horn as he passes every cyclist is excessive.


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## Stonepark (15 Nov 2012)

I always beep them right back with my megahorn........ as a thank you


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## sabian92 (15 Nov 2012)

MontyVeda said:


> nowt wrong with a driver sounding their horn to alert another road user to their presence... isn't this what horns are for?
> 
> this is what they seem to do when i was in turkey... every car would beep the car in front before passing them... took some getting used to, but maybe us Brits are too horn-shy.


 
It is but doing it to another car is different as it's muffled by the car you're in. A person outside is always going to hear it louder and personally they hurt my ears (I also have to cover my ears when ambulances etc go past).

They're also threatening. I generally give the finger to drivers who do it to me. Rude, maybe, but it always puts the fear of Christ up me and I've nearly come off in the past.


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## lulubel (15 Nov 2012)

There's one part of this story that interests me, and I'm not sure if anyone else has noticed it:



> I saw a cyclist about half a mile away. I moved right over to straddle the white line down the centre of the road because there was no oncoming traffic. I’ve always been told to give the cyclist plenty of room, because the vacuum created by the lorry when you’re going quite quick can pull them in front of the car that’s behind you.


 
After his experience, he sounds his horn when he's approaching a cyclist to let them know he's there.

Why doesn't he just slow down?

So many large vehicles go flying past me when I'm on the roads, and it's bloody scary, even if they are right on the other side of the road. If you haven't got a problem with your hearing, you can hear a lorry thundering up behind you - I grip the bars and think, "Hold your line, don't look round," because I've found they pass closer if I look round - but if you're listening to music so loud that you can't hear a lorry approaching, you probably won't notice the horn either.

The local bus drivers around here are obviously well trained because they give you plenty of room, and they slow down when they pass you, but so many drivers seem to think they're driving well because they're on the other side of the road, when all they need to do to make your experience of being passed more comfortable and less terrifying is to slow down.

Edit: Forgot to add, a lot of drivers round here sound their horns when they're approaching you - and some manage to wait until they're alongside you. I make sure I never look round, never jump, and never wobble. I just totally ignore them.


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## 400bhp (15 Nov 2012)

gaz said:


> It's not something I'm a fan of, but you can't blame this guy for doing it after what he has been through.


 
Absolutely and he comes across as a genuine bloke.

Humbling story.


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## 400bhp (15 Nov 2012)

lulubel said:


> *Why doesn't he just slow down?*


 
Perhaps he does both.

Generally, I'd rather a vehicle pass me quickly than fanny about.


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## mickle (15 Nov 2012)

The sooner all drivers start treating us as they more usually treat equestrians the better.


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## mickle (15 Nov 2012)

And now, having read the article.... How farking fast was he going to do all that damage (even after, presumably, he'd slowed down)? I've got not very much sympathy for the driver I'm afraid.


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## Hitchington (15 Nov 2012)

"As I got level with the cyclist he just turned right. Never looked, never put his arm up. If he’d looked, he wouldn’t have done it, but he just did it. "

I think this was the problem. No blame to a driver that hits someone who hasn't looked and signalled.


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## on the road (15 Nov 2012)

I think it's partly his fault, I've had lorries overtake me and straddle the white line but lorries are wider than cars so even they are straddling the white line they are still too close IMO. And also, maybe I can give him the benefit of the doubt because he's (probably) not a cyclist but once when I was driving there was a cyclist in front of me so I moved over to the second lane so that he had a lane to himself but he suddenly move over into my lane without signaling and without looking behind him but at least I wasn't so close to him that I couldn't react in time.


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## GrasB (15 Nov 2012)

Slowly driving past when committed to the overtake only succeeds in *INCREASING* the danger to *all* parties involved. My top 10 of the noticeable overtakes for their safety & my comfort level have all come from vehicles exceeding the speed limit (The top 3 by a considerable margin). I'd much prefer a motorist to commit to the overtake in a positive & robust manner than waft past taking 3 or 4 seconds longer than needed because they don't know what their gears & accelerator pedal are for.


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## doug (15 Nov 2012)

Was the lorry driver overtaking at a junction ?
Doesn't excuse the cyclist for not indicating and moving without checking behind, but would mean the driver is partly to blame.

The cyclist may have been turning into a driveway or bridleway which the driver may not have been aware of though.

https://www.gov.uk/using-the-road-159-to-203/overtaking-162-to-169




> *167*
> 
> *DO NOT* overtake where you might come into conflict with other road users. For example
> 
> approaching or at a road junction on either side of the road


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## Dan B (15 Nov 2012)

GrasB said:


> Slowly driving past when committed to the overtake only succeeds in *INCREASING* the danger to *all* parties involved. My top 10 of the noticeable overtakes for their safety & my comfort level have all come from vehicles exceeding the speed limit (The top 3 by a considerable margin). I'd much prefer a motorist to commit to the overtake in a positive & robust manner than waft past taking 3 or 4 seconds longer than needed because they don't know what their gears & accelerator pedal are for.


Especially in a brick-shaped vehicle, though, the faster you overtake the further out you need to be to avoid buffetting the cyclist with your wake. In a really big brick-shaped vehicle I would not be surprised if even the other side of the road is not far enough.

Edit to add: I'm not saying this is what happened here, as that would be pure speculation. I'm just making the genral observation


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## Arsen Gere (15 Nov 2012)

lulubel said:


> There's one part of this story that interests me, and I'm not sure if anyone else has noticed it:
> 
> 
> So many large vehicles go flying past me when I'm on the roads, and it's bloody scary, even if they are right on the other side of the road. If you haven't got a problem with your hearing, you can hear a lorry thundering up behind you - I grip the bars and think, "Hold your line, don't look round," because I've found they pass closer if I look round - but if you're listening to music so loud that you can't hear a lorry approaching, you probably won't notice the horn either.
> ...


 
Correct me if I am wrong but the Spanish highway code states there must be a white line between the vehicle and a cyclist. So if you are in one carriageway on the left of the line nearest the curb they should be in the other carriageweay.


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## VamP (15 Nov 2012)

GrasB said:


> Slowly driving past when committed to the overtake only succeeds in *INCREASING* the danger to *all* parties involved. My top 10 of the noticeable overtakes for their safety & my comfort level have all come from vehicles exceeding the speed limit (The top 3 by a considerable margin). I'd much prefer a motorist to commit to the overtake in a positive & robust manner than waft past taking 3 or 4 seconds longer than needed because they don't know what their gears & accelerator pedal are for.


 

Conversely, the dithering start - then stop - then pull into you as oncoming traffic appears is one of my most hated types of overtaking, second only to deliberately aggressive passes.


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## lulubel (15 Nov 2012)

Arsen Gere said:


> Correct me if I am wrong but the Spanish highway code states there must be a white line between the vehicle and a cyclist. So if you are in one carriageway on the left of the line nearest the curb they should be in the other carriageweay.


 
It's actually on the right here 

The point is that it's much less unpleasant, in my opinion, to be passed by an artic doing 30mph on the other side of the road than one doing 50mph. (Yes, I know about speed limits. And how many lorries stick to them?)

I'm not blaming the lorry driver for the accident - the cyclist turned in front of him without any warning, and he did his best to try and avoid him, and that seems pretty clear cut to me - but his reaction to it is to try and make sure cyclists are aware of him, so they can avoid doing anything stupid. It doesn't seem to have occured to him to change the way he drives so that, if something similar happens in the future, he has a better chance of avoiding a collision.

He's putting the responsibility for cyclists' safety on the cyclists, whereas I was taught (as a bus driver) that it was my responsibility to anticipate the dangerous actions of other road users, and to avoid putting myself in a position where I had no chance of missing them if they did something stupid.


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## RiflemanSmith (15 Nov 2012)

Crankarm said:


> Maybe. We haven't heard from the cyclist. There are always two sides to a story. Sounding his truck horn as he passes every cyclist is excessive.


This.
It is easy to get away with stuff if it can't be proved that you were at fault.


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## 400bhp (15 Nov 2012)

VamP said:


> Conversely, the dithering start - then stop - then pull into you as oncoming traffic appears is one of my most hated types of overtaking, second only to deliberately aggressive passes.


 
Yup, usually driving at 3/4 on you too (wing level with you).


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## jayonabike (15 Nov 2012)

RiflemanSmith said:


> It is easy to get away with stuff if it can't be proved that you were at fault.


Yeah thats it blame the lorry driver, it must be his fault, he's not a law abiding cyclist, whos every move on the road is perfect.

Only yesterday in my lorry, I had just turned left off a roundabout, in traffic, traveling at about 20 mph and a cyclist squeezed up the inside with inches to spare. He then pulled over to my right between me and the car in front, overtook him, weaved back into the left and went up the inside of 3 or 4 cars. No hand signals, didn't look behind, nothing. Complete idiot. If I had of squashed him, I'd of been arrested through no fault of my own, but then I'm a lawbreaking lorry driver.


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## lulubel (15 Nov 2012)

Crankarm's right, though. We've only heard one side of the story. And if the cyclist has no memory of the collision, he'll never be able to say what happened from his point of view.

I'm not saying this is true in the case of this lorry driver, but .....

I have noticed with some horn-sounding drivers that they seem to use their horn as an alternative to driving carefully - as in, "I'll drive like a maniac, but use my horn so everyone knows I'm there and can keep out of my way." It's probably a very easy mindset to get into.


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## siadwell (15 Nov 2012)

lulubel said:


> I have noticed with some horn-sounding drivers that they seem to use their horn as an alternative to driving carefully - as in, "I'll drive like a maniac, but use my horn so everyone knows I'm there and can keep out of my way." It's probably a very easy mindset to get into.


 
A bit like drivers who park anywhere, but it's OK 'cos they put their hazard warning lights on.


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## Peter Armstrong (15 Nov 2012)

I've not read the article yet but I have had trucks etc give me a quick pip of the horn to let me know they are passing, I find it helpfull.


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## Peter Armstrong (15 Nov 2012)

"Mr James now sounds his horn at every cyclist he passes, to warn them that he is there. He gets a lot of angry responses to this"

Why would people get angry? are they that stupid they dont reolise he is letting peopl know his presence.

Afterall that is what the "horn" is intended for, people seem to use it when they are pissed off, and therefore people take offence, but shouldnt


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## Peter Armstrong (15 Nov 2012)

Reading other peoples comments on here is annyoing, "A *vehicle horn* is a sound-making device used to warn others of the approach of the vehicle or of its presence"

If you take offence to this or think it is over the top then you simple shouldnt be on the road.


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## lulubel (15 Nov 2012)

I suppose all drivers could drive along tooting their horns every time they encounter another road user - to warn them of their presence.


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## doug (15 Nov 2012)

I guess it depends on how he sounds his horn. A gentle toot from a reasonable distance back wouldn't be a problem, a full on blast from 3ft away would. However, it will always sound louder to the cyclist outside than it will to the driver in his insulated cab, so he might think he is giving a gentle toot but the cyclists jumps out of their skin and it's brown shorts time.


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## glasgowcyclist (15 Nov 2012)

Peter Armstrong said:


> Why would people get angry? are they that stupid they dont reolise he is letting peopl know his presence.
> 
> Afterall that is what the "horn" is intended for, ...


 
It depends on the timing.

GC


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## mickle (15 Nov 2012)

jayonabike said:


> Yeah thats it blame the lorry driver, it must be his fault, he's not a law abiding cyclist, whos every move on the road is perfect.
> 
> Only yesterday in my lorry, I had just turned left off a roundabout, in traffic, traveling at about 20 mph and a cyclist squeezed up the inside with inches to spare. He then pulled over to my right between me and the car in front, overtook him, weaved back into the left and went up the inside of 3 or 4 cars. No hand signals, didn't look behind, nothing. Complete idiot. If I had of squashed him, I'd of been arrested through no fault of my own, but then I'm a lawbreaking lorry driver.


 
Oh, whatever. Show me a cyclist who presents a serious threat of death and injury to anyone in his path. If your lifestyle choices have led you to take a job as a driver of heavy vehicles on the roads that we all share then you have a duty of responsibility to do everything in your power to minimise the threat of danger that you pose to other road users.

So he weaved in and out of traffic without indicating. So what?


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## deptfordmarmoset (15 Nov 2012)

It might be salutary to stop thinking about what the driver did and think about what an HGV driver is being asked to do: drive enormous vehicles great distances under time pressure, often on roads which are simply not suitable for such large vehicles. (Or: vehicles which are not suitable for such roads.) And when they hit urban areas, their enormous blind spots mean that with the best will in the world, cyclists will become invisible to them. To me, it looks like an excessive burden for a driver with a conscience.


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## glasgowcyclist (15 Nov 2012)

RiflemanSmith said:


> It is easy to get away with stuff if it can't be proved that you were at fault.


 
Isn't that what our criminal justice system is based on?
Or have you an alternative in mind to the principle of being innocent until proved guilty?


GC


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## jayonabike (15 Nov 2012)

mickle said:


> Oh, whatever. Show me a cyclist who presents a serious threat of death and injury to anyone in his path. If your lifestyle choices have led you to take a job as a driver of heavy vehicles on the roads that we all share then you have a duty of responsibility to do everything in your power to minimise the threat of danger that you pose to other road users.
> 
> So he weaved in and out of traffic without indicating. So what?


 
So what? It is dangerous thats what, and not my fault if I had of hit him while he rode up the left hand side of me in traffic. I only saw him when his head popped out from under my front left wing mirror. I wasn't worried about him presenting " a serious threat of death and injury to anyone in his path " just himself. And as for ''do everything in your power to minimise the threat of danger that you pose to other road users'' I did.
If it had been a car weaving about on the road, with no indication or care for other road users, would you say the same thing? I think not, because it is a car, and cars are dangerous. AFAIK cyclist still have to abide by the same laws as every other road user.

P.S I notice in your reply you fail to mention the part about him undertaking me, just the '' weaving in and out of traffic without indicating'' funny that.


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## mickle (15 Nov 2012)

jayonabike said:


> You talk utter bollox


 
That's as may be.

What your cyclist did was wrong - possibly - but since riding up the inside of lorries is something cyclists do (often on an officially demarked cycle lane) the onus falls to you to take account of it. Isn't this the very reason that many lorries are being fitted with blind spot mirrors?

Get with the programme eh?


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## Typhon (15 Nov 2012)

doug said:


> Was the lorry driver overtaking at a junction ?
> Doesn't excuse the cyclist for not indicating and moving without checking behind, but would mean the driver is partly to blame.
> 
> The cyclist may have been turning into a driveway or bridleway which the driver may not have been aware of though.
> ...


 
That was my thought on reading the article too. Sometimes drivers of motorised vehicles don't see overtaking cyclists as "overtaking" as such and are willing to do it right before a junction. If that was the case the driver is partly to blame. If he was just randomly turning into a driveway though then I would say he's not.


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## jayonabike (15 Nov 2012)

mickle said:


> That's as may be.
> 
> What your cyclist did was wrong - possibly - but since riding up the inside of lorries is something cyclists do (often on an officially demarked cycle lane) the onus falls to you to take account of it. Isn't this the very reason that many lorries are being fitted with blind spot mirrors?


I don't know if you have noticed, but when driving you have to look forward in the direction you are traveling. You can't be constantly looking in your mirror to what is going on behind you as you might hit the vehicle in front. It takes a second, maybe two to overtake a lorry at speed, blind spot mirrors or not. There's no possibly about it, it IS wrong to undertake. And until cyclists ''get with the programme'' and understand the dangers of this, they are the ones who will come off worse.
Edit. There was no cycle lane, new, old, demarked, blue, red or otherwise.
Don't get me wrong, its up to everyone who uses the road to take care, and I'm not saying lorry drivers are blameless, but to automatically think the lorry driver is to blame when involved in an accident with a cyclist isn't right.
I'm a lorry driver, a car driver and a cyclist. I see it from every perspective of road user


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## MontyVeda (15 Nov 2012)

sabian92 said:


> It is but doing it to another car is different as it's muffled by the car you're in. A person outside is always going to hear it louder and personally they hurt my ears (I also have to cover my ears when ambulances etc go past).
> 
> They're also threatening. I generally give the finger to drivers who do it to me. Rude, maybe, but it always puts the fear of Christ up me and I've nearly come off in the past.


 
me thinks you need to
a; understand and accept what a car horn is actually supposed to be used for
b; grow a pair


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## jayonabike (15 Nov 2012)

MontyVeda said:


> b; grow a pair


Will this do...


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## Tigerbiten (15 Nov 2012)

MontyVeda said:


> me thinks you need to
> a; understand and accept what a car horn is actually supposed to be used for
> b; grow a pair


I hate getting beeped at when I'm on my bent trike.
1; With twin rear view morrors I've probably seen you approch from behind.
2: My ears at the horn level so a lot of horns tend to be painfully loud.

I'm another one who tends to give a salute as an answer to a horn beep.


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## Peter Armstrong (15 Nov 2012)

If u dont like a toot from a horn then dont ride on the road, also if you think its the drivers fault, and remember at this point we only have one side to go of, what did you want the truck driver too do? If you cycle dangerously then you are responsible for your own actions. You cannot cycle under a truck then blame him.


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## lulubel (15 Nov 2012)

Peter Armstrong said:


> You cannot cycle under a truck then blame him.


 
I don't see anyone here saying it was the lorry driver's fault. What I'm seeing is an analysis of the accident, based on the information we've been given (which is incomplete), and a discussion about how drivers can avoid something like that happening to them.

What I'm saying is that drivers should take more care, and drive more slowly, around vulnerable road users, to give themselves time to react.

What you seem to be saying is that drivers should just hoot their horns at everyone. How far do you take this? All cyclists, obviously. Pedestrians walking along the pavement, who might step out without looking? Other vehicles waiting to turn out of junctions, that might pull out? Vehicles in the next lane, that might change lane without warning?

Horn tooting is a popular pass time here in Spain. Everyone ignores it.


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## Hitchington (15 Nov 2012)

mickle said:


> Oh, whatever. Show me a cyclist who presents a serious threat of death and injury to anyone in his path. If your lifestyle choices have led you to take a job as a driver of heavy vehicles on the roads that we all share then you have a duty of responsibility to do everything in your power to minimise the threat of danger that you pose to other road users.
> 
> So he weaved in and out of traffic without indicating. So what?


So he's putting himself in danger and an increased chance of getting knocked off his bike probably. Bike riders haven't got a free reign to use the road with disregard for their own safety, if they ride like this then they should expect to be seriously injured or killed.


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## Peter Armstrong (15 Nov 2012)

Yes exactly what the horns for, if a ped isnt looking and steps out you toot the horn, cyclist that isnt looking over his @shoulder, toot to let him know your passing, congrats, thats what its for.


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## lulubel (15 Nov 2012)

Peter Armstrong said:


> Yes exactly what the horns for, if a ped isnt looking and steps out you toot the horn, cyclist that isnt looking over his @shoulder, toot to let him know your passing, congrats, thats what its for.


 
In 3 years as a bus driver, I used my horn once (because someone was about to reverse out of a petrol station into the car in front of me, and they obviously weren't hearing his horn). I managed not to hit any cyclists, pedestrians or other vehicles because I anticipated their actions and drove accordingly.

As I stated in my post above (and you apparently chose to ignore) excessive horn use by motorists leads to horns being ignored.


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## shouldbeinbed (15 Nov 2012)

Peter A. Peds stepping out into the road perpendicular to traffic flow fair enough, but are you seriously suggesting we ride everywhere looking backwards just to not get beeped at. Silly idea.
I'm not a fan of getting beeped at and yes we all know what the horn is *intended* to be used for but invariably it is an instrument of aggression in the drivers armoury saying f@%* off out of my way, not only to bikes but to other MVs too There may be exceptions such as this driver but until we all become psychic (and thus don't need beeping at) how are we to differentiate between someone simply intent on imposing their right of way by whatever means necessary or someone assuming we're all recklessly suicidal idiots based on one bad experience or someone that genuinely thinks they are helping us by effectively standing directly behind us on the street and bellowing hello down our lughole.


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## Peter Armstrong (15 Nov 2012)

Look we are talking about this truck driver who was unfortunate to have a cyclist who turn into his truck. If the cyclist checked over his shoulder he wouod have saw him and not pulled across, and if the driver tooted his horn the cyclist would have reolised the truck was there. Both would have avoided the incident, so yes check over your bloody shoulder before moving over because it mite save your life!


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## Peter Armstrong (15 Nov 2012)

Remember I didnt invent the horn or make the rules up, I simply follow them.


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## Slaav (15 Nov 2012)

If the lorry was doing 20mph and an idiot on a bike simply turns into his path - it aint going to end up well! Admittedly he may not have ended up in a ditch at 20mph but...

I know there are two sides but come on - there were plenty of people on scene so my assumption would be there were witnesses. Who would presumably have suggested that the Lorry driver was NOT at fault?


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## totallyfixed (15 Nov 2012)

I suspect not many truck drivers on here, I don't usually like getting involved in these kind of discussions that turn into personal vendettas but.....
I know this stretch of road really well, it is a Time Trial course we have used and Marston Moretaine was a cafe stop for the club run so to put some perspective into the story, the road has good sight lines, a good surface and has gentle bends plenty of distance apart so fine for overtaking it is also reasonably wide but I have found it in the past to be always quite busy as it links Bedford and Milton Keynes.
Overtaking a cyclist in a truck requires a deal of forethought, you certainly would not want to attempt it slowly as there is always the danger if you do of being stranded on the wrong side of the road for too long. If you are overtaking a cyclist in any sort of vehicle the safest way is to indicate, pass as far away from the rider as is safely practical and imo as quickly as possible, ok if the road is dead straight and there is no other traffic you can go slower but otherwise, it isn't only the cyclist who is in potential danger.
On the horn thing, a short toot is fine, a longer blare, to me anyway signifies aggression. If you are cycling into a headwind on a narrow road there is every chance you will not be aware of a car behind you and even less if it is electric because of the wind noise. On the few occasions I have had a car toot at me from behind I have always given a wave in acknowledgement and nearly always get one back. If a cyclist gave me the finger for the actions as described I would be tempted to stop and have a quiet word.


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## sabian92 (15 Nov 2012)

MontyVeda said:


> me thinks you need to
> a; understand and accept what a car horn is actually supposed to be used for
> b; grow a pair


 
I know what a car horn is for. I also think that telling a cyclist you're there with one is a bit pointless because, funnily enough, people notice a tonne and a half of metal on wheels moving around and making noise. It's also incredibly rude.

Grow a pair? Sorry that the surprise scares me. I hate loud noises at the best of times due to a learning difficulty I have - can't be helped. Also, the noise hurts my ears which can't be helped either. It's a piercing noise, and everybody is different.

http://www.dyspraxiafoundation.org.uk/services/ad_symptoms.php

Read the above, specifically the section titled "Perception (Interpretation of the different senses)" and tell me a need to grow a pair. Don't be an arse because you think I'm a pansy, because it makes you look a knob. Also, considering I'M the one with the learning difficulty, you sure as hell SPELL like you have one.


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## Peter Armstrong (15 Nov 2012)

I do think its not nice to tell someone to grow a pair but also you dont always hear q truck, I dont if doing 30mph plus I just hear shwwwww swwshhh hhhhshh wssss


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## mickle (15 Nov 2012)

d


Peter Armstrong said:


> Look we are talking about this truck driver who was unfortunate to have a cyclist who turn into his truck.... !



Is it stating the painfully bleedin' obvious to point out that it's the cyclist who's the unfortunate one in this story?


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## mickle (15 Nov 2012)

Anyone who cycles regularly on British roads will expect to have a truck overtake them occasionally. We dont need a beep thanks we need lots of space and low overtaking speeds. And if there isnt enough space to overtake safely then dont overtake. Its not farking rocket science.


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## GrasB (15 Nov 2012)

Horns on motor vehicles aren't suitable for 'use' on pedestrians & cyclists when you have a direct sight line to them unless it's an emergency. They are too loud & startle people which means the victim is more likly to fall over/off their bike

As for this low speed overtaking malarkey, what are you trying to do *maximise the danger to all road users*?! 
Let me put this in context here - An overtake on a single carriageway is the the most dangerous legal manoeuvre one can do. A proper overtake puts two vehicles into a head on collision trajectory with a high closing speed. As one vehicle should be (almost) completely in the oncoming carriageway. With these high closing speeds, remember at a mear 30mph the closing speed is 60mph, the required distances are large & reaction times will typically be longer than normal as people try to work out what's going on. So to complete a safe overtake one wants a large distance to the vehicle/person being overtaken & a high overtaking speed to minimise the amount of time the overtaker, overtakee & the oncoming car are all in direct road space conflict!


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## Peter Armstrong (15 Nov 2012)

mickle said:


> d
> 
> Is it stating the painfully bleedin' obvious to point out that it's the cyclist who's the unfortunate one in this story?


 Because people are going on about being bus drivers or how the dont need to look over their shoulders etc whicj was irrelevant because in this case beeping and looking over the sholder before making a move would have changed the out come, dont nit pick my comment out of content, plus if u dont want to be piped by a horn when being passed take it up withe government or whoever made the rule up.


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## Peter Armstrong (15 Nov 2012)

Ps not that its a rule to pip on the way past but use of horn cos I know somones going to nit pick at that also


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## Peter Armstrong (15 Nov 2012)

And yes some people do need a pip of the horn like the bloody guy that got ran over for not knowing the truck was there! No its not rocket science, but thankx for pointing out the painfully bleeding ovious.


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## lulubel (15 Nov 2012)

GrasB said:


> So to complete a safe overtake one wants a large distance to the vehicle/person being overtaken & a high overtaking speed to minimise the amount of time the overtaker, overtakee & the oncoming car are all in direct road space conflict!


 
What do you call a high overtaking speed? 50mph? 60mph?


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## Tigerbiten (15 Nov 2012)

Peter Armstrong said:


> If u dont like a toot from a horn then dont ride on the road.


Got a spare anti-gravity unit ............. :P

My recumbent trike-trailer rig is ~3.5 meters long and ~1 meter wide and can easily hit speeds of +30 mph downhill.
I find that roads are so much safer to ride due to fact that most cycle paths are not designed/built for something so non-standard to use them.
I've underseat streering so no weight on my hand, so its dead easy to let go of the right handle bar to wave at traffic. My lefthand side ball and socket joint is locked to the left handle bar so it wont bounce off.
If I can see its safe to overtake then I will normally wave a lorry/bus passed from behind and once it's safely passed I will give it a thumbs up to show its safe to pull back in.
The thinks that helps the driver alot, both in showing that I know the lorry/bus is behind me and when its safe to pull in.
A lot of the time I get a flash of the indicators in thanks .........


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## GrasB (15 Nov 2012)

lulubel said:


> What do you call a high overtaking speed? 50mph? 60mph?


For what road under, what conditions?


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## Tigerbiten (15 Nov 2012)

lulubel said:


> What do you call a high overtaking speed? 50mph? 60mph?


I don't mind any traffic passing me with a 50-60 mph difference in speed as long as there is enough room so that if I need to move out a couple of foot due to a big pot hole, I won't get hit.
At speed for me this normally means the vehicle overtaking me is fully over the carriageway white line.

What I don't like is drivers with the mentally "I've got to overtake no matter what".
Then they either try and race you for a pinch point or they are the 3rd-4th vehicle trying to overtake in the face of oncoming traffic.


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## mickle (15 Nov 2012)

GrasB said:


> Horns on motor vehicles aren't suitable for 'use' on pedestrians & cyclists when you have a direct sight line to them unless it's an emergency. They are too loud & startle people which means the victim is more likly to fall over/off their bike
> 
> As for this low speed overtaking malarkey, what are you trying to do *maximise the danger to all road users*?!
> Let me put this in context here - An overtake on a single carriageway is the the most dangerous legal manoeuvre one can do. A proper overtake puts two vehicles into a head on collision trajectory with a high closing speed. As one vehicle should be (almost) completely in the oncoming carriageway. With these high closing speeds, remember at a mear 30mph the closing speed is 60mph, the required distances are large & reaction times will typically be longer than normal as people try to work out what's going on. So to complete a safe overtake one wants a large distance to the vehicle/person being overtaken & a high overtaking speed to minimise the amount of time the overtaker, overtakee & the oncoming car are all in direct road space conflict!


Thanks for the driving lesson. Whats with the presumption that the overtaking vehicle has some kind of entitlement to get past? Whatever happened to patience?


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## 400bhp (15 Nov 2012)

mickle said:


> Thanks for the driving lesson. Whats with the presumption that the overtaking vehicle has some kind of entitlement to get past? Whatever happened to patience?


 
That's completely out of context Mickle - he's saying that if a vehicle is going to overtake, it needs to be done quickly and safetly.


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## slowmotion (15 Nov 2012)

Obviously, the lorry driver's story is one-sided but it has the ring of truth about it, doesn't it? It seems he ended up in the ditch trying to avoid the cyclist. He also showed concern for him after the "accident" (am I allowed to use that word or will the semantic nit-pickers crawl all over me?). Is it surprising that he does what he can to avoid a repetition?
Chapeau to him.


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## growingvegetables (16 Nov 2012)

GrasB said:


> A* proper* overtake puts two vehicles into a *head on collision trajectory* with a high closing speed.


Kinda hard to accord the rest of your post with anything like the respect it may be due, after that.


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## avalon (16 Nov 2012)

Sometimes accidents just happen, it may have been the fault of one or other of the people involved and most of the time a small error in judgement does not have such catastrophic consequences. We all make them, a wobble while reaching for the water bottle, swerving to avoid a pothole without looking behind first, driving around a bend a bit too fast and touching the white line.
Most truck drivers are well aware of other road users and are highly skilled at what they do. Unfortunately though, a lot of other road users are not aware of a trucks limitations in manouvering and stopping safely.


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## Globalti (16 Nov 2012)

My Dad killed a cyclist when I was about 13; it was an elderly man who was almost blind, almost deaf, had no lights or brakes and had been warned repeatedly by his family not to go out on his bike. He came straight out of a side road in front of my Dad's car, through the windscreen and died in my parents' laps, his neck gashed open by the wing mirror. The Police came and checked every single detail of the car, which was in first-class condition. They told my Dad that if there had been any defect he could have been prosecuted for manslaughter but in the end the coroner's verdict was that he wasn't to blame. He never spoke about it but would always flinch and brake when he saw cyclists coming out of side roads. That's why I am fanatical about keeping my own car clean and tidy and in good order.


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## Drago (16 Nov 2012)

He didn't hit a cyclist. He hit a chump on a bicycle.

I know that stretch of road well, and there is something about it that makes all users want to drive/ride like utter twonks.


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## Peter Armstrong (16 Nov 2012)

Globalti said:


> My Dad killed a cyclist when I was about 13; it was an elderly man who was almost blind, almost deaf, had no lights or brakes and had been warned repeatedly by his family not to go out on his bike. He came straight out of a side road in front of my Dad's car, through the windscreen and died in my parents' laps, his neck gashed open by the wing mirror. The Police came and checked every single detail of the car, which was in first-class condition. They told my Dad that if there had been any defect he could have been prosecuted for manslaughter but in the end the coroner's verdict was that he wasn't to blame. He never spoke about it but would always flinch and brake when he saw cyclists coming out of side roads. That's why I am fanatical about keeping my own car clean and tidy and in good order.


 
Thats horrible, im sorry.


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## asterix (16 Nov 2012)

MontyVeda said:


> nowt wrong with a driver sounding their horn to alert another road user to their presence... isn't this what horns are for?
> 
> this is what they seem to do when i was in turkey... every car would beep the car in front before passing them... took some getting used to, but *maybe us Brits are too horn-shy.*


 
Not so sure. When I was in the fast lane in my van some guy in a 4x4 Volvo used his horn to alert me of his presence. He kept his hand on the tit the entire time it took me to pass 4 artics. He may have had his lights on full beam too but because he was quite close behind I couldn't see his lights. I think I may have been preventing him from exceeding the speed limit by about 60mph since that appeared to be his desired speed when I let him by.

In France drivers occasionally bip the horn on quite rural roads when there is about one car every couple of hours. So long as they are a good distance away it's fine by me.


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## RiflemanSmith (16 Nov 2012)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Isn't that what our criminal justice system is based on?
> Or have you an alternative in mind to the principle of being innocent until proved guilty?
> 
> 
> GC


Wow why so dramatic?
I was saying that was one version of events, we didn't hear from the other person and that it was easy to get away with some thing if guilt can't be proven.
I was not saying our criminal justice system is broken or proposing an alternative was I!


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## MontyVeda (16 Nov 2012)

I'm flabber-fecking-ghasted at some of the comments here... a vehicle makes it's presence known and it's all "how rude", "how aggressive", "I say that lorry driver's suggesting beeping his horn to avoid the possibility of killing someone with little or no road sense... what a tosser!"

what is this, a world where drivers are in the wrong regardless?


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## MontyVeda (16 Nov 2012)

sabian92 said:


> I know what a car horn is for. I also think that telling a cyclist you're there with one is a bit pointless because, funnily enough, people notice a tonne and a half of metal on wheels moving around and making noise. It's also incredibly rude.
> 
> Grow a pair? Sorry that the surprise scares me. I hate loud noises at the best of times due to a learning difficulty I have - can't be helped. Also, the noise hurts my ears which can't be helped either. It's a piercing noise, and everybody is different.
> 
> ...


 
so you're riding on the road and you hear a car horn and jump out of your skin... do you drive a car too? I hope not!

I don't think you're pansy... I think if you cannot cope with 'noises', for whatever reason, then you need to keep well away from them... you cannot expect other road users to 'whisper' around you because of your unknown superpower.


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## redcard (16 Nov 2012)

What world are some people living in? Drivers driving around giving cheery toot-toots to cyclists? And here's me thinking I only got beeped cos the lazy, selfish, dick on wheels perceived that I increased his journey time by 6 seconds and was in a rush to get to the lights.


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## Drago (16 Nov 2012)

To be honest, if they haven't spotted a 40 foot vehicle then is a toot really likely to cut through the fog of ignorance? If he's not using his eyes, is he really likely to be using his ears?

And what would the road be like if every road user beeped their horn to announce their presence?


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## glasgowcyclist (16 Nov 2012)

RiflemanSmith said:


> Wow why so dramatic?
> I was saying that was one version of events, we didn't hear from the other person and that it was easy to get away with some thing if guilt can't be proven.
> I was not saying our criminal justice system is broken or proposing an alternative was I!


 
No drama I'm aware of.

Your remark appeared to be a criticism of the principle of presumption of innocence. Did I misinterpret that and you were actually praising it?


GC


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## Peter Armstrong (16 Nov 2012)

Please use common sense with this whole tooting of the horn thing. No1's saying do it to everyone, every time, but if you feel that the cyclist does not know your there. I can’t believe I had to explain that.


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## Tigerbiten (16 Nov 2012)

MontyVeda said:


> so you're riding on the road and you hear a car horn and jump out of your skin....


If the horn is loud/harsh and catches me compleatly by suprise then sometimes yes.

Do you cycle down a shared path and use a horn/shout at every walker to warn them that your approching from behind ??
If not, why not ?? because walkers are much less predictable than cyclists.


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## RiflemanSmith (16 Nov 2012)

It wasn't a criticism it was a statement of fact.


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## Drago (16 Nov 2012)

Peter Armstrong said:


> Please use common sense with this whole tooting of the horn thing. No1's saying do it to everyone, every time, but if you feel that the cyclist does not know your there. I can’t believe I had to explain that.


But if everyone adopted this the road would be a cacophony of utterly meaningless noise. All a cyclist would ever hear in an urban area is a constant beep of horns as each vehicle approaches in turn and the driver alerts the cyclist to their vehicles presence.


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## Scruffmonster (16 Nov 2012)

Accidents happen. Sucks for the cyclist. Sucks for the driver. Yet they happen.

For what it's worth, in my opinion, English truck drivers are generally the best drivers on the road though. By that I mostly mean trucks driven on English number plates. Those with foreign plates are less easy to classify. Some shocking, some excellent, some outright dangerous. When I check my six I look at eyes, and number plate. It's not a foolproof system but it's pretty accurate.

Also, well done for the mother to have shown such a mature and responsible attitude, well done to the driver for adjusting his behaviour, whether some agree with it or not.

And finally... As a non helmet wearer, this highlights that a badly fitted one means you're not really wearing one.


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## Peter Armstrong (16 Nov 2012)

Drago said:


> But if everyone adopted this the road would be a cacophony of utterly meaningless noise. All a cyclist would ever hear in an urban area is a constant beep of horns as each vehicle approaches in turn and the driver alerts the cyclist to their vehicles presence.


 
ERRT ERRT, The guy was cycling along, probably not been passed for a while becuase the truck was behind him, he didnt know it was there.
So therefore in this case a toot would have helped, hense the USE COMMON SENSE. If loads of cars are passing a cyclist he does not need every single person too beep!

I mite as well type "lksdrgj sdafjg ' ioj sfv po" becuase its just not getting through


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## sabian92 (16 Nov 2012)

MontyVeda said:


> so you're riding on the road and you hear a car horn and jump out of your skin... do you drive a car too? I hope not!
> 
> I don't think you're pansy... I think if you cannot cope with 'noises', for whatever reason, then you need to keep well away from them... you cannot expect other road users to 'whisper' around you because of your unknown superpower.


 
Yes, but only if it's blared as the car goes past me which would probably shoot anybody up to be fair. I don't hear one a mile away and think "f**k, I nearly fell off then!". What's driving got to do with it? I'm in a metal box, it isn't anywhere near as shrill when you're shielded from it, which you're not when you're on a bike. Unless you're listening to music which is ridiculous anyway.

Why do you hope I don't drive a car? I do for the record, I have been for 2 and a half years.

I don't expect people to not beep but if you do it driving past somebody on bike BECAUSE they're on a bike then you're a knob.

Superpower? I highly doubt it's a superpower somehow considering it makes certain aspects of my life a pain in the arse because of it.


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## Drago (16 Nov 2012)

Peter Armstrong said:


> ERRT ERRT, The guy was cycling along, probably not been passed for a while becuase the truck was behind him, he didnt know it was there.
> So therefore in this case a toot would have helped, hense the USE COMMON SENSE. If loads of cars are passing a cyclist he does not need every single person too beep!
> 
> I mite as well type "lksdrgj sdafjg ' ioj sfv po" becuase its just not getting through


Ah, and who is to dictate when common sense applies?

If a vehicle runs over your neck in Yorkshire it's just as likely to kill you there than if the accident happened in Hammersmith. Just because you're in Hammersmith and the cyclist ahead has been overtaken by one vehicle in no way makes the rider any more aware of your vehicle than it would if you were in rural Yorkshire and no one had just passed them.

It's a nice idea, but full of flaws and at a practical level it's simply utter bollarks.

The sad reality is (if the account described is correct) that this cyclist died of the dumbs, and nothing you can do will ever compensate for a numbnuts.


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## RiflemanSmith (16 Nov 2012)

Peter Armstrong said:


> ERRT ERRT, The guy was cycling along, probably not been passed for a while becuase the truck was behind him, he didnt know it was there.
> So therefore in this case a toot would have helped, hense the USE COMMON SENSE. If loads of cars are passing a cyclist he does not need every single person too beep!
> 
> I mite as well type "lksdrgj sdafjg ' ioj sfv po" becuase its just not getting through


If he couldn't hear an articulated lorry behind him, it was either upon him very fast or he couldn't hear it for some other reason so he probably wouldn't have heard a toot either.


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## GrasB (16 Nov 2012)

growingvegetables said:


> Kinda hard to accord the rest of your post with anything like the respect it may be due, after that.


What you don't like a statement of hard fact? An overtake *necessarily* puts two vehicles on a collision course. This is regardless of the distance between the overtake & approaching vehicles. It's possible for the distance between the vehicles to be many miles, none the less they are on a collision course unless one of the vehicles deviates from the path it is on up the road.


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## Peter Armstrong (16 Nov 2012)

Drago said:


> Ah, and who is to dictate when common sense applies?
> 
> If a vehicle runs over your neck in Yorkshire it's just as likely to kill you there than if the accident happened in Hammersmith. Just because you're in Hammersmith and the cyclist ahead has been overtaken by one vehicle in no way makes the rider any more aware of your vehicle than it would if you were in rural Yorkshire and no one had just passed them.
> 
> ...


 

The driver dictates common sense, same as judging all decisions you make on the road, its not full of flaws becuase people do, do this, remember this mite have saved this person life!
Im not going to explain when it is and when its not right to do this, and weather someone knows a cars behind you or not, thats just silly it was just an example of a stiuation when you are more likley to know cars are passing compared to another.




RiflemanSmith said:


> If he couldn't hear an articulated lorry behind him, it was either upon him very fast or he couldn't hear it for some other reason so he probably wouldn't have heard a toot either.


 
I didnt reolise that the sound level of a truck driving was the same as a horn, thats because its not, its louder, I even bet they design them that way, ow wait they do.


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## Peter Armstrong (16 Nov 2012)

I wish i could find a way out of this thread but I keep getting sucked back in!


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## Globalti (16 Nov 2012)

I've lost track of the argument....


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## Peter Armstrong (16 Nov 2012)

Globalti said:


> I've lost track of the argument....


Ill update you,

I won


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## GrasB (16 Nov 2012)

Peter Armstrong said:


> Ill update you,
> 
> I won


only in your own mind... the argument hasn't been resolved only viewpoints discussed.


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## MontyVeda (16 Nov 2012)

Peter Armstrong said:


> Please use common sense with this whole tooting of the horn thing. No1's saying do it to everyone, every time, but if you feel that the cyclist does not know your there.* I can’t believe I had to explain that*.


 
sometimes it's got everything to do with perpetuating the 'argument/discussion' whilst sacrificing common sense, listening, understanding.... it's all the fun of the forum!


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## RiflemanSmith (16 Nov 2012)

Peter Armstrong said:


> I didnt reolise that the sound level of a truck driving was the same as a horn, thats because its not, its louder, I even bet they design them that way, ow wait they do.


 
I wasn't talking about the difference in engine noise to the sound of a horn clever cloggs.
I was saying if the cyclist couldn't hear an articulated lorry directly behind him then there is some thing seriously wrong, in fact I was saying that I don't believe the lorry drivers version of events!


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## lulubel (16 Nov 2012)

Peter Armstrong said:


> I didnt reolise that the sound level of a truck driving was the same as a horn, thats because its not, its louder, I even bet they design them that way, ow wait they do.


 
I know trucks can be pretty loud, but I haven't heard any that are louder than their own horns.



Drago said:


> If a vehicle runs over your neck in Yorkshire it's just as likely to kill you there than if the accident happened in Hammersmith. Just because you're in Hammersmith and the cyclist ahead has been overtaken by one vehicle in no way makes the rider any more aware of your vehicle than it would if you were in rural Yorkshire and no one had just passed them.


 
This is a very good point. I've learnt through experience that it's when there's a string of traffic that I'm more likely to make an error and not realise there's something about to pass me. If a lorry passes you, and there's a car behind it, the lorry's engine totally drowns out any noise the car is making. THAT would be a time when a quick beep of the horn (by the car driver) would actually be useful.

The thing is, I live in a country where a lot of drivers beep their horns when they're coming up behind a cyclist, on an otherwise empty road in the middle of nowhere, and it doesn't make the roads any safer. When you hear a lot of beeping, it just becomes background noise, and no-one takes a blind bit of notice.


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## Dan B (16 Nov 2012)

lulubel said:


> This is a very good point. I've learnt through experience that it's when there's a string of traffic that I'm more likely to make an error and not realise there's something about to pass me. If a lorry passes you, and there's a car behind it, the lorry's engine totally drowns out any noise the car is making. THAT would be a time when a quick beep of the horn (by the car driver) would actually be useful.


I dunno. Unless there's a bend or a pinch point or a traffic island or oncoming traffic, if my road position is such that the lorry can get past, any following car can get past as well if I hold my line - so a beep is not going to give me any information I can act on. If there *is* a change in the effective road width, then hanging back until it becomes safe to overtake again would be a more appropriate action than tooting. In that situation I would tend to assume anyone beeping is saying "I'm coming past you irrespective of whether it's safe" or "I'm coming past and I can't tell whether it's safe" - which I grant you is better behaviour than a dangerous and silent overtake, but possibly not by much


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## MontyVeda (16 Nov 2012)

Tigerbiten said:


> If the horn is loud/harsh and catches me compleatly by suprise then sometimes yes.
> 
> *Do you cycle down a shared path and use a horn/shout at every walker to warn them that your approching from behind ??*
> If not, why not ?? because walkers are much less predictable than cyclists.


 
i ring my bell... but according to some on here... that is also offensive, aggressive, etc.


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## Hitchington (16 Nov 2012)

Peter Armstrong said:


> I wish i could find a way out of this thread but I keep getting sucked back in!


 
View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=242H7F8DKHA


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## Globalti (16 Nov 2012)

I WISH drivers would sound their horn because with the wind rushing in my ears I don't usually hear them until they are a few yeards behind me. When I'm driving and I see cyclists I will sometimes pip my horn from about 100 yards behind them, it gives them time to react.


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## lulubel (16 Nov 2012)

Dan B said:


> I dunno. Unless there's a bend or a pinch point or a traffic island or oncoming traffic, if my road position is such that the lorry can get past, any following car can get past as well *if I hold my line* - so a beep is not going to give me any information I can act on.


 
And that was my point. When a lorry has just passed me, I can't hear a car behind, so it's easy to assume there isn't one. That's the only time I'm in danger of NOT holding my line as a vehicle is trying to pass.

I'm also not suggesting everyone should beep their horns in that situation. I'm saying it's the only time I can think of when it might actually be useful.


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## lulubel (16 Nov 2012)

Globalti said:


> I WISH drivers would sound their horn because with the wind rushing in my ears I don't usually hear them until they are a few yeards behind me. When I'm driving and I see cyclists I will sometimes pip my horn from about 100 yards behind them, it gives them time to react.


 
React? What do you want them to do? Get out of the way?

(Obviously not, but it seems a very strange thing to say.)


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## Globalti (16 Nov 2012)

No but sometimes cyclists in groups or pairs do spread out across the road and drivers are usually quite appreciative when they see those cyclists making an effort to create some space. As a driver I find it extremely stressful trying to get past a big bunch of cyclists struing out over a couple of hundred yards.


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## gilespargiter (16 Nov 2012)

Seems to me there are a few things about this that people have failed to consider.
One thing is that the driver’s tachometer record would have recorded his speed at the time of the incident, which would certainly have been taken into account at the time. This would partly have been used to decide his liability for prosecution or not (40mph for LGV’s on single carriageways; unless a speed limit indicates less).
With air-ride suspension (now usual) if a 44tonne vehicle comes up behind you on a fairly good road surface, while easing off on the power – it will be so quiet you may well not hear it.
For me it brings to mind the death of the son of a close friend of mine; he was killed in a similar incident, he was 12yrs, he had been specifically forbidden on this specific occasion to go on the main road with his bike as had his friends. The lorry in front stopped (he used his mirrors) the lorry that did it stopped (tacho recording 33mph-on a 40mph road) the lorry behind stopped, the car coming the other way stopped, his two friends on bicycles behind him stopped, – they all saw it. He went under the truck.
He turned across the road without looking, to go through a field gate.
What can any driver do if someone comes immediately in front of them without looking?
We (my friend {the father} his older son and mother) went to see the driver (very local), a while after we had buried the lad, to try and reconcile him to the fact that it was not especially his fault, that he may a few weeks before have even been the man who delivered the bicycle.
The real difficulty as it seems to me, is that we all demand cheap quick easy transport and will not properly recognise the consequences of obtaining it.


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## Crosstrailer (16 Nov 2012)

If he had hit him at 1


mickle said:


> And now, having read the article.... How f***ing fast was he going to do all that damage (even after, presumably, he'd slowed down)? I've got not very much sympathy for the driver I'm afraid.


 
If he had hit him at 15mph he potentially could have killed him. You cannot guess at the drivers speed and make assumptions based on reading that article.


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## lulubel (17 Nov 2012)

Globalti said:


> No but sometimes cyclists in groups or pairs do spread out across the road and drivers are usually quite appreciative when they see those cyclists making an effort to create some space


 
Interestingly, the advice given here in Spain is to always ride 2 abreast if you're riding in a group, and not move into single file to make it easier for a vehicle to pass - unless the road is too narrow otherwise, obviously. This forces vehicles to wait for an opportunity to overtake safely rather than trying to squeeze past. It works here because the majority of drivers accept that cyclists have as much right to be on the road as they do, but I think it would result in a lot of road rage in the UK.


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## Globalti (17 Nov 2012)

Well, we all know that in Spain people are generally more relaxed than in the UK; to most Spaniards even the word mañana has an air of catastrophic urgency.


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## vernon (17 Nov 2012)

MontyVeda said:


> nowt wrong with a driver sounding their horn to alert another road user to their presence... isn't this what horns are for?
> 
> this is what they seem to do when i was in turkey... every car would beep the car in front before passing them... took some getting used to, but maybe us Brits are too horn-shy.


 
It was like that in Greece twenty odd years ago. Trucks had two horns fitted. A gentle one warning folk of their presence and a loud 'get out of my fugging way' horn.


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## ufkacbln (18 Nov 2012)

Banjo said:


> I believe that vehicles should be fitted with a second not so loud more friendly sounding horn /bell or whatever purely used to warn cyclists pedestrians etc. The normal horn could still be in the center of the steering wheel for emergency use.
> 
> I have heard that Boris Johnson is campaigning for something similar.


 
Sorry, I have been fighting the urge, but I see this as one of these;








Equipped with one of these on the dashboard:


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## Globalti (18 Nov 2012)

My brother was the chief engineer on the project to build that vehicle. Sad but true.


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## mickle (18 Nov 2012)

Globalti said:


> My brother was the chief engineer on the project to build that vehicle. Sad but true.


The proper Humvee or the re-bodied Blazer?


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## Globalti (18 Nov 2012)

Hummer 2, not the original Humvee. He was employed by Ricardo when they got the job at GM.


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## ColinJ (19 Nov 2012)

Globalti said:


> Well, we all know that in Spain people are generally more relaxed than in the UK; to most Spaniards even the word mañana has an air of catastrophic urgency.


Hmmm - not _always_ a good thing ... I remember reading "Wind in my Wheels" by Josie Dew and she related how her b/f was knocked off his bike in Spain and suffered a serious head injury. He was rushed to the nearest hospital and the staff just shrugged when they saw him, and carried on chatting. They were on a break ...


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