# Motorsports Thread



## Reynard (29 Sep 2019)

Thought us motorsport geeks and geekettes needed a place to chinwag and chunter - so here it is. Everything from F1 to FE and BTCC to GT. As long as it's got wheels and an engine and races, it's there to be talked about, as well as drivers, tech and gossip.

So i'll bid you all welcome and slope back off to listening to the Russian GP while watching the BTCC on the telly. Wonder how the F1 will pan out, things have gone a bit, umm, interesting...


----------



## classic33 (29 Sep 2019)

Just don't forget the spoilers, when posting about the races!!


----------



## Pumpkin the robot (29 Sep 2019)

I am not too bothered with 4 wheels, much of a muchness as far as I am concerned. I watch the occassional F1 race but touring cars I find dull.
I go to a few rounds of the British super bikes as my brother does the catering for one of the big teams and I get free entry  I also watch the motogp races which has been entertaining the last few seasons.


----------



## Reynard (29 Sep 2019)

The F1 was a bit meh in the end. Et plus ca change, really...

So far, the BTCC meet from Silverstone, on the other hand, has been absolutely terrific. Roll on Race 3 for the touring cars...


----------



## Drago (29 Sep 2019)

The politics and shenanigans is the best part of F1. It's the Emmerdale of motorsport!


----------



## Reynard (29 Sep 2019)

I don't watch soaps, never mind Emmerdale, but I get the gist LOL...

I do love to see Ferrari make a pig's ear of things though...  This girl is not a fan of the Scuderia.


----------



## Salad Dodger (29 Sep 2019)

I think F1 would be improved if pit stops could be banned, or at the least very heavily penalised, like say cars have to remain in their pit box for a mandatory 5 minutes. That might encourage teams to race on 1 set of tyres flag to flag, and then overtaking would have to be done on track, rather than by superior pit stop strategy.

It would make the races so much easier to follow. But, then again, since F1 is mostly behind a paywall, very few people will be interested anyway.....


----------



## Reynard (29 Sep 2019)

Re the paywall, I've gone back to following F1 the way I used to before I got a TV when I was a kid - on the radio. Plus I use the live timing feed and text commentary on the BBC website. Works well enough for me. I refuse to pay into Bernie's retirement fund.

They sort of did that in 2005, where the cars had to race lights to flag on a single set of tyres - that only lasted a single season, helped by the debacle of the 2005 US GP where only 6 cars started. Slightly negated tactically by refuelling, but still...


----------



## Drago (29 Sep 2019)

F1 tried the one set of tyres per race some seasons back. Aside from being dangerous, they were spending half the race not racing at all, just cruising and preserving the tyres. 

Teams should inform the FIA 3 (in confidence) laps ahead of time when they intend to pit, unscheduled damage excepted. Then ban pit stops under the safety car, except for those already notified to the FIA and thus scheduled in advance. It stops underserving drivers gaining huge advantage, and thus disappointing fans.


----------



## fossyant (29 Sep 2019)

So, who is off to Wales Rally.

I'll be there at Oulton Park on Thursday, then CC'er MTB weekender, and we are hoping to catch the stage at Colwyn if we are back in time, and defrosted/dry. My lad is chasing the lot !!!


----------



## Reynard (29 Sep 2019)

Drago said:


> Teams should inform the FIA 3 laps ahead of time when they intend to pit, j scheduled damage excepted. Then ban pit stops under the safety car, except for those already notified to the FIA and thus scheduled in advance. It stops underserving drivers gaining huge advantage, and thus disappoints fans.



In F2 etc, you can't pit for tyres under the safety car or virtual safety car for precisely this reason.


----------



## raleighnut (29 Sep 2019)

Not forgetting those nutters brave lads (and Lasses) on 3 wheels,


View: https://youtu.be/HHsXkKdHmcQ


----------



## Reynard (29 Sep 2019)

Gearing up for the third touring car race of the day.

It's spitting with rain, there's a greasy track, it's the reverse grid race. What could possibly go wrong?


----------



## Drago (29 Sep 2019)

The most electrifying 3 laps you'll ever see. The young pretender challenging the master, two modern day gladiators locked in mortal combat.


View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=utakS4p3NOE


----------



## Reynard (29 Sep 2019)

Good race 3, but not the result I wanted... 

On the other hand, maybe going to Brands not with max ballast might be an advantage.


----------



## dave r (29 Sep 2019)

Drago said:


> The politics and shenanigans is the best part of F1. It's the Emmerdale of motorsport!



It was very entertaining listening to the Ferrari radio traffic at the start of today's race, then read on crash.net the attempt to explain it. https://www.crash.net/f1/news/930507/1/ferrari-explains-prerace-agreement-team-orders-russia


----------



## Jenkins (30 Sep 2019)

I much prefer my motorsport live. Just spent the weekend at Silverstone and had a bloody good (if wet & windy) time.


----------



## Reynard (30 Sep 2019)

Jenkins said:


> I much prefer my motorsport live. Just spent the weekend at Silverstone and had a bloody good (if wet & windy) time.



I do too, but haven't in a fair while due to various issues or other. 

Was watching on ITV4 - as always. What a cracking meeting, though it might be a while before you dry out. That rain looked biblical at times...

BTCC title race still too close to call - can barely get a cigarette paper between the top three.


----------



## Jenkins (30 Sep 2019)

Reynard said:


> I do too, but haven't in a fair while due to various issues or other.
> 
> Was watching on ITV4 - as always. *What a cracking meeting, though it might be a while before you dry out. That rain looked biblical at times*...
> 
> BTCC title race still too close to call - can barely get a cigarette paper between the top three.


Good waterproofs and knowing where to stand to get shelter from the wind & rain through years of experience. Luffield out terrace this afternoon with protection from the grandastand behind. The atmosphere this afternoon when


Spoiler: just in case anybody hasn't seen the results yet



underdog Jack Goff


was heading for the win in race 3 made up for the cold.


----------



## Reynard (30 Sep 2019)

I've always ended up getting drenched at Silverstone no matter how much I tried to avoid it... 

At one point, I thought


Spoiler



Dan Cammish


 was going to nick race 3. For a long time, there was very little difference between the cars on slicks and the cars on wets, and then it all changed right at the end.


----------



## Phaeton (30 Sep 2019)

mmmm I like the idea of a Motorsport sub-section, but I fear we need sub-section under the sub-sections, like yesterday there was F1, BTCC, WSB all racing plus I'm sure multiple other events, would get confusing if we talk about them all at the same time, like if I add a comment "Poor Charles just can't catch a break with the fastest car", also is it a good idea that MaClaren are going back to Mercedes, they will have 4 teams, Ferrari 2, Honda 2 & poor old Renault only 1 unless Williams jump the opposite way.


----------



## icowden (30 Sep 2019)

Phaeton said:


> mmmm I like the idea of a Motorsport sub-section, but I fear we need sub-section under the sub-sections, like yesterday there was F1, BTCC, WSB all racing plus I'm sure multiple other events, would get confusing if we talk about them all at the same time, like if I add a comment "Poor Charles just can't catch a break with the fastest car", also is it a good idea that MaClaren are going back to Mercedes, they will have 4 teams, Ferrari 2, Honda 2 & poor old Renault only 1 unless Williams jump the opposite way.



The way Williams are going, there won't be a Williams!


----------



## Phaeton (30 Sep 2019)

icowden said:


> The way Williams are going, there won't be a Williams!


Yep there's a good chance of that, Claire just doesn't seem to gel the team like her father did, I think it was a bad decision to sign Kubica this year, but he did bring his money with them which is what they desperately needed. It will be a shame if they do fold or sell, they are one of the iconic teams for me.


----------



## dave r (30 Sep 2019)

Phaeton said:


> Yep there's a good chance of that, Claire just doesn't seem to gel the team like her father did, I think it was a bad decision to sign Kubica this year, but he did bring his money with them which is what they desperately needed. It will be a shame if they do fold or sell, they are one of the iconic teams for me.



I remember when Williams were a top team, I find it sad seeing them propping up the grid.


https://www.racefans.net/f1-information/f1-teams/williams/


----------



## Reynard (30 Sep 2019)

icowden said:


> The way Williams are going, there won't be a Williams!



Unless things change drastically, I fear you might be right. But to quote from an excellent book by Brock Yates "it ain't cubic inches that win races, it's cubic money."

Any wonder the bigger teams (read the ones doing all the winning) are fighting tooth and nail against the proposed budget cap? 

Sadly though, gone are the days where a good "garagiste" team could compete against teams financed by manufacturer or government money.


----------



## icowden (1 Oct 2019)

Agreed although I think Liberty need to get rid of Ferrari's "longstanding team" $100 million bonus payment. Maybe things are due to change though. I do wonder how long manufacturers will stay interested in making combustion engines given the drive to move to electric. Surely there has to come a point where ICE engines become a hobby rather than part of the manufacturers development cycle?

That said, I'm not a fan of the Super-Mario-Kart approach that Formula E has taken with it's magic hotspots and viewer boosts.


----------



## Phaeton (1 Oct 2019)

icowden said:


> That said, I'm not a fan of the Super-Mario-Kart approach that Formula E has taken with it's magic hotspots and viewer boosts.


I'm not either, I've tried on multiple times to watch it, but I can't I just can't get excited about it, I find the fact they are all the same car confusing, but I think the biggest issue are the circuits, they are too narrow & having the 180 hairpin so they always crash into each other is just wrong.

Edit:- But it has to be the future & F1 is on it's last decade


----------



## dave r (1 Oct 2019)

Phaeton said:


> I'm not either, I've tried on multiple times to watch it, but I can't I just can't get excited about it, I find the fact they are all the same car confusing, but I think the biggest issue are the circuits, they are too narrow & having the 180 hairpin so they always crash into each other is just wrong.
> 
> Edit:- But it has to be the future & F1 is on it's last decade



I've tried to watch as well, I just find it confusing.


----------



## Reynard (1 Oct 2019)

icowden said:


> Agreed although I think Liberty need to get rid of Ferrari's "longstanding team" $100 million bonus payment.



The issue here, is that Ferrari have a massive global fanbase, and F1 simply can't risk Ferrari throwing their toys out of the pram and walking away from the sport. Hence they like to keep them sweet. It's one of those irritating little truths that raises its ugly head on a regular basis.

Downside to this is that Ferrari have undue influence in how the sport is run compared to the other teams.


----------



## Reynard (1 Oct 2019)

icowden said:


> That said, I'm not a fan of the Super-Mario-Kart approach that Formula E has taken with it's magic hotspots and viewer boosts.



I really like watching Formula E... Mind, there is this... 





On a more serious note, I think it works well, although some of the circuits could be wider. Downside of racing on city streets. People said the same of the BTCC when they introduced success ballast and reverse grid races.

Formula E is a great way of getting a new and different fanbase interested in motorsports.

Although Sam never seems to get any fan boosts


----------



## icowden (2 Oct 2019)

I think that's the biggest part of my difficulty in enjoying it. I'd love to see Formula E expand to use some classic circuits - Silverstone, Spa, Suzuka, Monza etc.


----------



## Reynard (2 Oct 2019)

The season just finished did that - twice. Mexico and Monaco. Although on both occasions they didn't use the whole circuit.

The circuits you mention are long and / or has a car on full power for large percentages of the lap. With Formula E races on a 45 mins +1 lap format, it can be really tight on energy at the best of times, even for the Gen 2 cars. If teams get their numbers wrong, as happened with Nissan eDAMS in Mexico, they can run out of juice well before the end of the race.

Maybe with the next generation of Formula E cars that won't be such an issue as battery technology is coming on in leaps and bounds, but under the current regulations, there's the risk of either a) a high percentage of non-finishers on longer circuits or b) drivers cruising around and not racing just so that they can get to the end. Neither option is particularly palatable, especially the latter.

Have to say though, there's been a marked improvement in the circuit layouts used for Formula E since the series started, and the fact that it's the *only* pure street circuit championship gives it immense appeal.


----------



## icowden (2 Oct 2019)

Agreed - I think the Formula E cars will rapidly improve in terms of battery life. I just prefer the non-street circuits where there is more space.


----------



## Reynard (2 Oct 2019)

icowden said:


> Agreed - I think the Formula E cars will rapidly improve in terms of battery life. I just prefer the non-street circuits where there is more space.



Sure 

But the upsides of the current format is it highlights the drivers who can overtake cleanly and those who can't...


----------



## Phaeton (2 Oct 2019)

I also think they need to change the chassis rules, maybe still provide each manufacturer with a basic tub & suspension but allow them to build whatever body to it they want so they all don't look like clones. Also think they should open up the electrics more, they will get better & faster innovation if each manufacturer is allowed to provide their own power plant. I know this increases costs but they can offset that as development for their road cars.


----------



## Reynard (2 Oct 2019)

I'm not totally pat with FE technical regs, but the power trains are provided by different manufacturers, with both works and customer teams. As well as Nissan, Citroen, Audi, Mahindra and BMW (as of last season), now Mercedes and Porsche have joined the series.

An interesting factlet for you...

The team boss of DS Techeetah was my external PhD supervisor back in the day.


----------



## Phaeton (2 Oct 2019)

Okay I thought they all ran the same kit & there was very little they could change but like the defunct F1GP or whatever it was called


----------



## Reynard (2 Oct 2019)

A1GP 

The restrictions in Formula E lie more in the power output regs rather than in how that power is transmitted to the drivetrain.


----------



## fossyant (2 Oct 2019)

Oulton Park for the Wales Rally GB tomorrow !


----------



## swansonj (2 Oct 2019)

Time was when I would have got excited about all these issues (although my memories of Silverstone involve more sunburn than rain).

This year, for the first year in many, I went to a VSCC raceday, the new meet at Brands Hatch; and I was content. No particularly close racing, no crashes, no corporate hospitality, no advertising logos on every car surface, no eternal debating of the regulations or despairing for the future, no processions on tramlines, just the noise of Morgan engines, the smell of burnt castor oil, unfettered access to the paddock, and a whole bunch of happy people.


----------



## Phaeton (2 Oct 2019)

fossyant said:


> Oulton Park for the Wales Rally GB tomorrow !


Have they moved it sure it wasn't in Wales last time I was there.


----------



## icowden (2 Oct 2019)

Phaeton said:


> Okay I thought they all ran the same kit & there was very little they could change but like the defunct F1GP or whatever it was called



I think that was in the first year when everyone had the same car. Now that there is a push for electric, they have opened up development a lot, and the manufacturers are jumping on it.


----------



## Jenkins (2 Oct 2019)

One of the reasons that Formula E uses street circuits or heavily shortened versions of normal tracks is that the cars are just slow compared to 'normal' race cars and the tighter confines gives the impression of speed.

I've only watched a couple of the races as the noise (or lack of) produced by the electric motor puts me off. The early diesel powered Audis and Peugeots in sportscar racing were near silent but went like excrement of a digging device - you never forgot watching them enter Maggots/Becketts at Silverstone 🏎


----------



## Brads (3 Oct 2019)

Red Bull have uploaded the highlights of the latest WESS round at Hawkstone park.

Proper enduro.


----------



## dave r (4 Oct 2019)

Moto GP from Thailand this weekend, big crash for Marquez in first practice, Marquez just needs two points more than Dovizioso to be crowned champion this year.


----------



## JPBoothy (4 Oct 2019)

fossyant said:


> Oulton Park for the Wales Rally GB tomorrow !


I remember my teenage years of following the 'proper' RAC Rally around the country sleeping in our cars in the middle a forrest with loads of like minded people who would stand around sharing hot drinks and having a good old laugh despite the cold. I'm sure there was no (or a very cheap) entry fee and, if you got a move on you could fit a few stages in on the same day. Proper cars (Group B), proper drivers (Sainz/Vatanen/McRae/Kankkunen) and no limit on racing conditions (Ice/Snow/Fog) as is often the case now by the Health + Safety busy bodies. It no longer feels like a working mans/womens sport, and the commercial knobbers seem to have sucked some of the fun from it. My cousins husband attends a lot of 'old school' classic Rally's up North and the Mk2 Escorts etc are still hoping strong 👍


----------



## Phaeton (4 Oct 2019)

We used to do the same with motorcycles trials, you would turn up at the start & they would give you a sheet of paper with an address (well a description of an address) of where the stages were & roughly what time they expected riders to be there. You then got out the map & plotted a route, you could then follow a few riders all the way around, or sit & watch them all come through a stage then jump ahead a few to catch them all again. No fees at all as I remember, or might have been 20p for the map.


----------



## Phaeton (4 Oct 2019)

Just watching Speedway on Eurosport, isn't this the perfect sport for electric bikes?


----------



## Reynard (4 Oct 2019)

Jenkins said:


> One of the reasons that Formula E uses street circuits or heavily shortened versions of normal tracks is that the cars are just slow compared to 'normal' race cars and the tighter confines gives the impression of speed.
> 
> I've only watched a couple of the races as the noise (or lack of) produced by the electric motor puts me off. The early diesel powered Audis and Peugeots in sportscar racing were near silent but went like excrement of a digging device - you never forgot watching them enter Maggots/Becketts at Silverstone 🏎



They're not *that* slow... Top speed of 174, 0-60 in around 2.5 seconds...

OK, granted, they're not as fast as F1 or sports prototypes. But they're somewhat faster than F3 and just shy of F2 in terms of outright performance, so not that shabby...


----------



## Reynard (4 Oct 2019)

JPBoothy said:


> I remember my teenage years of following the 'proper' RAC Rally around the country sleeping in our cars in the middle a forrest with loads of like minded people who would stand around sharing hot drinks and having a good old laugh despite the cold. I'm sure there was no (or a very cheap) entry fee and, if you got a move on you could fit a few stages in on the same day. Proper cars (Group B), proper drivers (Sainz/Vatanen/McRae/Kankkunen) and no limit on racing conditions (Ice/Snow/Fog) as is often the case now by the Health + Safety busy bodies. It no longer feels like a working mans/womens sport, and the commercial knobbers seem to have sucked some of the fun from it. My cousins husband attends a lot of 'old school' classic Rally's up North and the Mk2 Escorts etc are still hoping strong 👍



I do miss the old style rallies too - I grew up watching the last of the Group B era and into the beginning of Group A, but I can see why the tech regs and the format *had* to change in order to keep the sport going.


----------



## Reynard (4 Oct 2019)

dave r said:


> Moto GP from Thailand this weekend, big crash for Marquez in first practice, Marquez just needs two points more than Dovizioso to be crowned champion this year.



I've totally lost my interest in MotoGP... 

Sick and tired of Honda doing to Marquez's team mates what Ferrari used to do to Schuey's. Plus Marquez isn't above deliberately punting his own team mate off.

Still can't forgive him for his antics costing Dani Pedrosa the WC a few years ago.


----------



## derrick (4 Oct 2019)

JPBoothy said:


> I remember my teenage years of following the 'proper' RAC Rally around the country sleeping in our cars in the middle a forrest with loads of like minded people who would stand around sharing hot drinks and having a good old laugh despite the cold. I'm sure there was no (or a very cheap) entry fee and, if you got a move on you could fit a few stages in on the same day. Proper cars (Group B), proper drivers (Sainz/Vatanen/McRae/Kankkunen) and no limit on racing conditions (Ice/Snow/Fog) as is often the case now by the Health + Safety busy bodies. It no longer feels like a working mans/womens sport, and the commercial knobbers seem to have sucked some of the fun from it. My cousins husband attends a lot of 'old school' classic Rally's up North and the Mk2 Escorts etc are still hoping strong 👍


We had the same when i was racing Karts, we wouold all turn up with the Kart on the roof rack i set of tyres a few odd sprockets, Then after a few year guys started turning up with two or thee chassi's thee or four different engines, and a assortment of different tyres. All in the back of great big vans, We just could not compete with them, if i blew an engine i had to strip and rebuild on site, usually missing one of the heats, The money guys would just swop engines.


----------



## JPBoothy (4 Oct 2019)

Reynard said:


> I've totally lost my interest in MotoGP...
> 
> Sick and tired of Honda doing to Marquez's team mates what Ferrari used to do to Schuey's. Plus Marquez isn't above deliberately punting his own team mate off.
> 
> Still can't forgive him for his antics costing Dani Pedrosa the WC a few years ago.


The WSB have been my sport of choice of tv viewing over the past few seasons. I like the constant excitement as they push to challenge on virtually every corner, as opposed to only having a few opportunities per lap like in F1. Team orders don't seem to count either, and it's every man (and occasional women) for themselves.. Although, I am still a bit suspicious as to how Bautista could storm to victory in the first 11 races and then suddenly start falling off and crashing ever since! All credit to Johnny Rae though for never backing off with the pressure and biding his time


----------



## Reynard (4 Oct 2019)

JPBoothy said:


> The WSB have been my sport of choice of tv viewing over the past few seasons. I like the constant excitement as they push to challenge on virtually every corner, as opposed to only having a few opportunities per lap like in F1. Team orders don't seem to count either, and it's every man (and occasional women) for themselves.. Although, I am still a bit suspicious as to how Bautista could storm to victory in the first 11 races and then suddenly start falling off and crashing ever since! All credit to Johnny Rae though for never backing off with the pressure and biding his time



Think it just shows it's as much in the head as it is in the skill and in the machinery.

Part of the problem I have is that bike racing has pretty well much all disappeared behind a paywall, and I can't afford / justify paying for it. Same is true of F1.


----------



## JPBoothy (4 Oct 2019)

Reynard said:


> Think it just shows it's as much in the head as it is in the skill and in the machinery.
> 
> Part of the problem I have is that bike racing has pretty well much all disappeared behind a paywall, and I can't afford / justify paying for it. Same is true of F1.


I am an armchair fan of most sports these days as the coverage and shots of the action is so good. No atmosphere I know but, you can't have it all.. I know F1 is a ridiculous price to see, but what are the BSB/WSB prices like in comparison? A lady that I work with has relatives in the IOM so she gets to see the TT for next to nothing.. Now that is an adrenalin rush to watch even on tv.


----------



## Reynard (4 Oct 2019)

JPBoothy said:


> I am an armchair fan of most sports these days as the coverage and shots of the action is so good. No atmosphere I know but, you can't have it all.. I know F1 is a ridiculous price to see, but what are the BSB/WSB prices like in comparison? A lady that I work with has relatives in the IOM so she gets to see the TT for next to nothing.. Now that is an adrenalin rush to watch even on tv.



Mmmm, around £30 to get in race day, or something of that ilk. BTCC is similar in price.

I have a friend who is TT mad. Though she prefers to go over for the Southern 100 as it's far less crowded.


----------



## dave r (5 Oct 2019)

Halo or aeroscreen?

https://drivetribe.com/p/f1-has-to-...aign=main&utm_medium=fb&utm_source=organic_F1


----------



## Drago (5 Oct 2019)

Halo. No one wants to see a race car with a toilet seat bolted to it. I. Sure some of the smaller teams hall's even have 'Armitage Shanks' moulded into them.


----------



## dave r (5 Oct 2019)

Drago said:


> Halo. No one wants to see a race car with a toilet seat bolted to it. I. Sure some of the smaller teams hall's even have 'Armitage Shanks' moulded into them.



Yes, the halo is fugly, but it does the job of providing a bit more head protection, the aeroscreen does the same job but looks a bit more elegant.


----------



## Phaeton (5 Oct 2019)

But the Merkins Indycars melt if they try to race in the rain, but F1 will race in the rain, won't they need wipers, or are they expecting the speed to keep them clear


----------



## Pumpkin the robot (5 Oct 2019)

JPBoothy said:


> The WSB have been my sport of choice of tv viewing over the past few seasons. I like the constant excitement as they push to challenge on virtually every corner, as opposed to only having a few opportunities per lap like in F1. Team orders don't seem to count either, and it's every man (and occasional women) for themselves.. Although, I am still a bit suspicious as to how Bautista could storm to victory in the first 11 races and then suddenly start falling off and crashing ever since! All credit to Johnny Rae though for never backing off with the pressure and biding his time


 I have heard rumours that they have lost 500rpm. As they were so far ahead, they have a "penalty" The same has happened in BSB in previous years, which then had a few riders sand bagging, so they did not win the races by huge distances and get penalised.




Reynard said:


> I've totally lost my interest in MotoGP...
> 
> Sick and tired of Honda doing to Marquez's team mates what Ferrari used to do to Schuey's. Plus Marquez isn't above deliberately punting his own team mate off.
> 
> Still can't forgive him for his antics costing Dani Pedrosa the WC a few years ago.


Marquez is just head and shouders above anyone else, especially anyone on a Honda.
He qualified third, the next Honda is 13th. That bike is terrible, only Marquez being on the bike is giving Honda the title. Whatever they are paying him, it is not enough.


----------



## Reynard (5 Oct 2019)

Aeroscreen looks better than the flip-flop... sorry, halo... but would be a PITA in the wet.

They do race in the wet over t'other side of the pond, but only on road courses. Believe me, on a high speed oval, you really wouldn't want to be racing in the wet.


----------



## Reynard (5 Oct 2019)

Pumpkin the robot said:


> Marquez is just head and shouders above anyone else, especially anyone on a Honda. He qualified third, the next Honda is 13th. That bike is terrible, only Marquez being on the bike is giving Honda the title. Whatever they are paying him, it is not enough.



Or rather, what equipment are Honda giving him that the others aren't being given...

Forgive my scepticism about all the Hondas actually being equal. It's Schumacher and Ferrari all over again. Or Senna and Lotus...


----------



## Pumpkin the robot (5 Oct 2019)

The HRC bikes will always be latest development. The rest of the "factory" bikes will be slightly behind, but Marquez will be the rider they are developing the bike for, it will suit his style of riding and quite rightly so. At the moment there is not a rider that can touch him. Lorenzo cannot tame the Honda and on his day he is one of the quickest riders (although those days seem to be further and further in the past)
It seems to be a similar situation when Stoner was at Ducati, nobody else could ride the bike. Even Rossi underestimated how bad the bike was (I seem to remember his crew chief saying it only needed a few small mods, look how that turned out!) Sometimes you just have to accept that the rider flatters the bike.


----------



## Reynard (5 Oct 2019)

Plus we don't know what's in the contracts - those aren't going to be aired in public.

Marquez is good, but IMHO not *that* good... Pedrosa was more than matching him at Honda until they decided that Marc was their "Golden Boy" and the machinery stopped being equal. Plus he still has a talent for throwing it at the scenery...


----------



## Pumpkin the robot (6 Oct 2019)

Pedrosa never had it on the big bikes. Too many crashes that ended up in major injuries.
MM will probably win more world titles than Agostini in the end, he virtually has 6 already. That does not happen by accident, especially when the bike has not always been the best on the grid.


----------



## Reynard (6 Oct 2019)

To be fair, Dani couldn't have have so many consistent 2nd and 3rd place finished in World Championships and several hatfulls of MotoGP wins spanning across multiple seasons without being more than just a teensy weensy bit good.  Sometimes it's simply how the luck falls; he was never one to chuck it gratuitously at the scenery.

Guess he didn't bounce quite as well as other riders did. 

Yes, I'll openly admit I have no great love for Marc Marquez. But if you look at the quality of the current grid, you've got a few up and coming kids, some past stars that are getting rather long in the tooth, and the rest are well, average, haven't really shown the potential that they should have done or have been weirdly AWOL when it comes to race performances. You can only beat the opposition that's put in front of you. As the saying goes, in the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king... 

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.


----------



## dave r (6 Oct 2019)

Reynard said:


> Aeroscreen looks better than the flip-flop... sorry, halo... but would be a PITA in the wet.
> 
> They do race in the wet over t'other side of the pond, but only on road courses. Believe me, on a high speed oval, you really wouldn't want to be racing in the wet.



I suspect that if the aeroscreen is adopted by F1 wipers will quickly make an appearance.


----------



## Phaeton (6 Oct 2019)

Pumpkin the robot said:


> but Marquez will be the rider they are developing the bike for, it will suit his style of riding and quite rightly so


I believe this to be the real reason, they have built the bike around him, do others have to adopt to it & can't


Reynard said:


> Marquez is good, but IMHO not *that* good... Pedrosa was more than matching him at Honda until they decided that Marc was their "Golden Boy" and the machinery stopped being equal. Plus he still has a talent for throwing it at the scenery...


I 'think' that is said with rose tinted Dani glasses on & not your usual objective view. Pedrosa was good on his day, but he had too many off days, maybe he wasn't as talented as he thought he was, must admit I expected him to be World Champion & would have been happy to see it, but it never happened he always managed to grab defeat from the jaws of victory.


----------



## Pumpkin the robot (6 Oct 2019)

Phaeton said:


> I believe this to be the real reason, they have built the bike around him, do others have to adopt to it & can't
> I 'think' that is said with rose tinted Dani glasses on & not your usual objective view. Pedrosa was good on his day, but he had too many off days, maybe he wasn't as talented as he thought he was, must admit I expected him to be World Champion & would have been happy to see it, but it never happened he always managed to grab defeat from the jaws of victory.



I think it is a case of MM being able to ride through the problems and save it when things go a little bit wrong and others can't do that (I'm looking at Cal Crutchlow here AKA the gravel badger)



Spoiler



Another title for MM against a bunch of also rans


----------



## Reynard (6 Oct 2019)

Phaeton said:


> I 'think' that is said with rose tinted Dani glasses on & not your usual objective view. Pedrosa was good on his day, but he had too many off days, maybe he wasn't as talented as he thought he was, must admit I expected him to be World Champion & would have been happy to see it, but it never happened he always managed to grab defeat from the jaws of victory.



Maybe...  I've been a Dani Pedrosa fan since, well, like, forever. 

Although MotoGP has been more broadly competitive at the sharp end in past years than it is nowZZZZZZZZZZ. I've barely been watching the highlights for the last couple of years because it's so bloomin' predictable. So it's back to comparing apples and pears really.


----------



## Reynard (6 Oct 2019)

Anyways, I had a fine morning watching the live power stage from Rally GP while making leek and potato soup.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (6 Oct 2019)

I went to Bicester Scramble. All manner of exotica, competition and non-competition.


----------



## Pumpkin the robot (6 Oct 2019)

Reynard said:


> Maybe...  I've been a Dani Pedrosa fan since, well, like, forever.
> 
> Although MotoGP has been more broadly competitive at the sharp end in past years than it is nowZZZZZZZZZZ. I've barely been watching the highlights for the last couple of years because it's so bloomin' predictable. So it's back to comparing apples and pears really.


The last 4 or 5 races have had last lap/corner overtakes for the win, imho it has been some of the best racing for years!


----------



## Reynard (6 Oct 2019)

Pumpkin the robot said:


> The last 4 or 5 races have had last lap/corner overtakes for the win, imho it has been some of the best racing for years!



Fair enough.  I just guess when you've lost interest, you've lost interest... 

And as I said upthread, it's also now behind a paywall to watch live, and I can't justify stumping up the cash. If it was on FTA, I'd probably watch it and maybe my interest would re-ignite.


----------



## dave r (6 Oct 2019)

Reynard said:


> Fair enough.  I just guess when you've lost interest, you've lost interest...
> 
> And as I said upthread, it's also now behind a paywall to watch live, and I can't justify stumping up the cash. If it was on FTA, I'd probably watch it and maybe my interest would re-ignite.



Highlights on quest, usually at a silly time, I usually end up watching on Quest OD on my tablet.


----------



## Reynard (6 Oct 2019)

dave r said:


> Highlights on quest, usually at a silly time, I usually end up watching on Quest OD on my tablet.



Yeah, I know... They've migrated to various different (and gradually less mainstream) channels since the coverage went over to BTsport. Hate the silly-o-clock thing, and just tend to forget.

Rallying highlights have gone the same way.


----------



## Pumpkin the robot (6 Oct 2019)

I went off watching it for about 6 years, I guess it ebbs and flows. I only started watching again when my brother got the bsb gig a few years back, I got a bike and started doing bsb rounds and following bikes on the tv again (not paying though!)


----------



## raleighnut (7 Oct 2019)

Reynard said:


> Yeah, I know... They've migrated to various different (and gradually less mainstream) channels since the coverage went over to BTsport. Hate the silly-o-clock thing, and just tend to forget.
> 
> Rallying highlights have gone the same way.


Not to mention the commentary team are carp compared to the BBC team.


----------



## Reynard (7 Oct 2019)

raleighnut said:


> Not to mention the commentary team are carp compared to the BBC team.



Charlie Cox and Steve Parrish iirc...


----------



## Phaeton (7 Oct 2019)

Whose the guy who gets almost apoplectic when it's a close race towards the end


----------



## raleighnut (7 Oct 2019)

Reynard said:


> Charlie Cox and Steve Parrish iirc...


Yep, both quite entertaining as well as informed.


----------



## Reynard (7 Oct 2019)

raleighnut said:


> Yep, both quite entertaining as well as informed.



Charlie did the BTCC commentary when it was on the BBC back in the late 90s. I can't remember who was his co-commentator though, although it might even have been Steve...

Do you remember when Charlie rolled his Mondeo at Thruxton in '95?


----------



## raleighnut (7 Oct 2019)

Reynard said:


> Charlie did the BTCC commentary when it was on the BBC back in the late 90s. I can't remember who was his co-commentator though, although it might even have been Steve...
> 
> Do you remember when Charlie rolled his Mondeo at Thruxton in '95?


Nah I really didn't watch much car racing in 95, I was with a gorgeous girl from Finland then and we spent most of our free time either getting drunk or in bed (not much time for telly)

Always been a fan of 'Stavros' though from his exploits with Sheene in the late 70s and the madness they caused in the paddock to him qualifying for a 500 world championship race on Barry's bike and Leathers when Barry was a 'bit' hungover on the Saturday (TBF they were team mates at the time) I mean anyone who can drive a car with personalised plate PEN 15 has got to be a hero.


----------



## Pumpkin the robot (7 Oct 2019)

Parrish was a team mate of Barry Sheene? He never mentions it.


----------



## Reynard (7 Oct 2019)

raleighnut said:


> Nah I really didn't watch much car racing in 95, I was with a gorgeous girl from Finland then and we spent most of our free time either getting drunk or in bed (not much time for telly)



Here you go...


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdNrNGeWOxw


----------



## Reynard (9 Oct 2019)

Sad to report via a friend and former colleague in the media that Motoring News has gone tits up. Autosport is also in a lot of trouble.

It's unfortunate, but given the rise of digital media, inevitable. I used to buy both religiously but now will only snag a copy when there's something in there that I want to read or keep for posterity.

Whenever I pick up a copy of Autosport these days, I always find myself thinking that it's expensive for what it is, too "glitzy" and a lot less informative and a lot less of a good read than it used to be. Maybe I'm looking back through rose tinted specs, but maybe not. It's a totally different kind of publication to the one I started buying in '88...


----------



## Reynard (9 Oct 2019)

Regarding Autosport, they've just announced that they're putting up the cost of their printed edition from £3.99 to £10.99 in order to be able to cover their costs.


----------



## Phaeton (9 Oct 2019)

Reynard said:


> Regarding Autosport, they've just announced that they're putting up the cost of their printed edition from £3.99 to £10.99 in order to be able to cover their costs.


 I couldn't find a sales falling off the edge of a cliff smiley


----------



## Reynard (9 Oct 2019)

Phaeton said:


> I couldn't find a sales falling off the edge of a cliff smiley



Or a "shooting themselves in the head" smiley...

At £3.99 it wasn't such a good buy. At £10.99 they can whistle for my money.


----------



## Phaeton (9 Oct 2019)

Reynard said:


> Or a "shooting themselves in the head" smiley...
> 
> At £3.99 it wasn't such a good buy. At £10.99 they can whistle for my money.


Heads in the clouds, or more likely some other form of anatomy, that really is a Forest Gump, Stupid is as stupid does moment whoever came up with that idea


----------



## Reynard (9 Oct 2019)

Phaeton said:


> Heads in the clouds, or more likely some other form of anatomy, that really is a Forest Gump, Stupid is as stupid does moment whoever came up with that idea



Exactly.

A decline in sales and rising costs due to the increasing reliance on digital media is true of all printed media. However, the team should also be looking at the kind of magazine they're putting out - other motoring / motorsport publications still seem to be doing reasonably well considering. If it's not something that people actually want to read, they're going to struggle no matter what the cover price is...

I've recently been going through some Autosports from '86 and '87 that I "rescued" from a car boot sale, and they're a totally different animal to the most recent copy I bought in August....


----------



## Jenkins (9 Oct 2019)

A little bit of the story behind the Autosport price rise: Link here

For those with a bit of stamina, a decent internet connection, and the right TV package, this is a bumper weekend for armchair motorsport, There's IMSA's Petit Le Mans live streamed on https://imsatv.imsa.com/ the Bathurst 1000 on BT Sport, the Japanese Grand Prix on Sky Sports F1 and the BTCC finale from Brands Hatch on ITV4


----------



## Reynard (9 Oct 2019)

Jenkins said:


> A little bit of the story behind the Autosport price rise: Link here



Ah, thanks for that... Explains a lot, especially the marked recent decline in the quality of the content. Hadn't even noticed that they weren't owned by Haymarket anymore.

Though to be fair, I've not been buying Autosport weekly / subscription since mid-2010 - I now just flick through it in the shop and might only buy four or five issues a year max.

Prior to 2010, I've had it every week all the way since 1988. 

Sad to see it end like this - I wasn't just an avid reader, I was on their books as a snappy for six years.



> For those with a bit of stamina, a decent internet connection, and the right TV package, this is a bumper weekend for armchair motorsport, There's IMSA's Petit Le Mans live streamed on https://imsatv.imsa.com/ the Bathurst 1000 on BT Sport, the Japanese Grand Prix on Sky Sports F1 and the BTCC finale from Brands Hatch on ITV4



BTCC all the way for me.  Title is on a knife-edge. Who is it going to be?


----------



## Jenkins (9 Oct 2019)

Reynard said:


> BTCC all the way for me.  Title is on a knife-edge. Who is it going to be?


Colin Turkington for the repeat of last year's title - he just needs to be sensible and stay out of trouble. I may go down to Brands Hatch on Saturday for free practice & qualifying (plus qualifying & 6 races for the support categories) weather depending. 

Then Petit Le Mans on the internet Saturday evening/Sunday morning, Bathurst and the Japanese GP recorded for whenever I get time and BTCC either recorded if the weather's good (I'll be out for a bike ride) or from the comfort & warmth of my armchair if it's raining again.


----------



## Reynard (9 Oct 2019)

Looking at the forecast, you might be wanting snorkel and flippers...

Head says Turkington, heart says Cammish.  A lot will depend on qualifying. Colin's got a bit of a points buffer over Andy and Dan, but it's not a big buffer and the last round at Silverstone showed how quickly things can change.


----------



## Jenkins (9 Oct 2019)

Reynard said:


> Looking at the forecast, you might be wanting snorkel and flippers...
> 
> Head says Turkington, heart says Cammish.  A lot will depend on qualifying. Colin's got a bit of a points buffer over Andy and Dan, but it's not a big buffer *and the last round at Silverstone showed how quickly things can change*.


Especially the weather, as I found out


----------



## Reynard (9 Oct 2019)

Jenkins said:


> Especially the weather, as I found out



The weather is usually pretty pants for the last round though. It seems to be quite traditional.


----------



## Phaeton (9 Oct 2019)

If only he wasn't driving a BMW, wonder if they will be there next year if Boris gets his way


----------



## Drago (10 Oct 2019)

Looks like the Japanese grand prix could be disrupted this weekend due to a hurricane. Possible that quali may get moved to Sunday morning, or potentially the whole race cancelled.


----------



## Reynard (10 Oct 2019)

Wouldn't be the first time it's happened.


----------



## Salad Dodger (11 Oct 2019)

If BTCC goes ahead this weekend, spare a thought for the marshals who will be standing trackside throughout the weekend in whatever Mother Nature throws at them.....


----------



## Reynard (11 Oct 2019)

Salad Dodger said:


> If BTCC goes ahead this weekend, spare a thought for the marshals who will be standing trackside throughout the weekend in whatever Mother Nature throws at them.....



I always do 

Have several friends who wear their orange romper suits with pride.  And they do a damn fabby job.


----------



## Phaeton (11 Oct 2019)

Salad Dodger said:


> If BTCC goes ahead this weekend, spare a thought for the marshals who will be standing trackside throughout the weekend in whatever Mother Nature throws at them.....


It's going to be sunny all weekend


----------



## Reynard (11 Oct 2019)

Been set the 10 day motorsport-pic-a-day challenge on the Book of Faces.

Blimey, that's harder than I thought, to define 37 years of motor racing into only 10 pics...


----------



## Reynard (13 Oct 2019)

Settling back to watch some excellent racing from the BTCC meet at Brands. If this carries on all day, we're in for a treat.


----------



## sheddy (13 Oct 2019)

Bathurst spoiler
https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/s...coverage/42240c3ef344c006f84306d2dfcfe5e3/amp


----------



## Phaeton (13 Oct 2019)

Just switched on Sly to see the grid walk surprised at the lineup both of Martin not being there & the order on the grid


----------



## Reynard (13 Oct 2019)

Ooooer, it's all kicking off in the Ginetta GT4s - and they've not even got off the grid yet!!! 

Edited to add: The golden rule of motorsport is NOT to take your team mate off... 

Second edit: now time penalties... Gonna need a maths degree to keep up with this one...


----------



## Reynard (13 Oct 2019)

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!


----------



## Phaeton (13 Oct 2019)

Reynard said:


> Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!


Oh dear a home goal


----------



## Reynard (13 Oct 2019)

Phaeton said:


> Oh dear a home goal



Brake failure...


----------



## Phaeton (13 Oct 2019)

Aye sack the mechanic


----------



## Phaeton (13 Oct 2019)

But on a different note why bring him in from the front to put tyres on to only come 3rd he could have finished in 1st. Worst case he moves over for his team mate


----------



## Reynard (13 Oct 2019)

Phaeton said:


> Aye sack the mechanic



It was more down to being stuck behind the rolling roadblock that was Olly Jackson's Ford Focus... No air through through the cooling ducts, red hot disks and *BANG*


----------



## Phaeton (13 Oct 2019)

sheddy said:


> Bathurst spoiler
> https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/s...coverage/42240c3ef344c006f84306d2dfcfe5e3/amp


Would love to do a few laps there


----------



## Reynard (13 Oct 2019)

It's a cracking circuit, isn't it?

Sort of a bit like Brands Hatch on steroids.


----------



## cosmicbike (13 Oct 2019)

An afternoon of channel hopping, not posh enough for Sky so only F1 highlights interspersed with the BTCC. Really pleased to see Bottas take a well deserved win, was waiting for team orders to let Hamilton by. A bit of a dull race, certainly the opposite at Brands today with more safety cars than you could shake a stick at in all the classes. Not a bad way to spend my Sunday afternoon.


----------



## RoadRider400 (13 Oct 2019)

Reynard said:


> It was more down to being stuck behind the rolling roadblock that was Olly Jackson's Ford Focus... No air through through the cooling ducts, red hot disks and *BANG*



Didnt cause any issue for the others behind. Probably more to do with the left foot braking he does.
After the dodgy Matt Neal incident on Turkington in race 2 I was jumping for joy when he crashed out.


----------



## Phaeton (13 Oct 2019)

RoadRider400 said:


> After the dodgy Matt Neal incident on Turkington in race 2 I was jumping for joy when he crashed out.


I'm not a huge Neal fan but I'm not sure it was all his fault Turkington knew he was there & closed the door.


----------



## Reynard (13 Oct 2019)

Eh, I think it's what in the BTCC is pretty well much a racing incident i.e. both of them knew what they were doing. It's not Matt's fault that Colin couldn't hang onto the slide.


----------



## Reynard (13 Oct 2019)

RoadRider400 said:


> Didnt cause any issue for the others behind. Probably more to do with the left foot braking he does.



Ummm, left foot braking is pretty well much de rigueur in racing driver circles.


----------



## Reynard (3 Nov 2019)

Right, USGP from COTA... How's it going to pan out?


----------



## Reynard (3 Nov 2019)

Ferrari... Oh dear...


----------



## Grant Fondo (3 Nov 2019)

Reynard said:


> Ferrari... Oh dear...


Mind you the track looks as rough as a badgers arse?


----------



## dave r (3 Nov 2019)

I'm watching tomorrow on catch up, I'll stay away from this thread.


----------



## Grant Fondo (3 Nov 2019)

dave r said:


> I'm watching tomorrow on catch up, I'll stay away from this thread.


No worries...spoiler alert takes on a whole new meaning


----------



## Reynard (3 Nov 2019)

Grant Fondo said:


> Mind you the track looks as rough as a badgers arse?



Reminds me of a Catchpole cartoon in Autosport many moons ago


----------



## Reynard (3 Nov 2019)

Wheeeeee!!! Almost a rabbit out of the hat there.

But    to Lewis.


----------



## Grant Fondo (3 Nov 2019)

Good end to race, thought Max was going to catch him but he is a six times winner, massive respect


----------



## Reynard (3 Nov 2019)

This was a race where Lewis really showed his true class - he had no right to make those tyres last that long, and yet he did.

Any other driver on the current grid would likely have ended up in the scenery, and this is what sets Lewis above them by some margin. Chapeau that man - and then some.


----------



## Grant Fondo (3 Nov 2019)

Reynard said:


> This was a race where Lewis really showed his true class - he had no right to make those tyres last that long, and yet he did.
> 
> Any other driver on the current grid would likely have ended up in the scenery, and this is what sets Lewis above them by some margin. Chapeau that man - and then some.


You could see what that took out of him, incredible drive.


----------



## Reynard (3 Nov 2019)

Grant Fondo said:


> You could see what that took out of him, incredible drive.



Bit hard to "see" it on the radio, but yeah, I can imagine...


----------



## Drago (3 Nov 2019)

The media are going nuts. They've missed the minor, but crucial, point that Hamilton won't become world champion until he gets to the end of the season, and he has to do so without being disqualified from the championship. Unlikely to be an issue, but Schumacher managed such a disqualification in 1997 

Either way, he has no class. He's a surly sulker, a tax avoider, who seems incapable of opening his mouth without putting his foot in it.


----------



## Reynard (3 Nov 2019)

Drago said:


> The media are going nuts. They've missed the minor, but crucial, point that Hamilton won't become world champion until he gets to the end of the season, and he has to do so without being disqualified from the championship. Unlikely to be an issue, but Schumacher managed such a disqualification in 1997



The difference between Schumacher and Hamilton:

Jerez was the last race of the season. In order to win the title for himself Michael *had* to ensure that Villeneuve didn't finish. So he tried pulling the same move on Villeneuve that he did to Hill in Adelaide in 1994 - also the last race of the season. So Schumacher had history there. Plus the FIA under Max Moseley was a very different beast back then.

In Abu Dhabi in 2016, Lewis had to win the race, with Nico some way back. His solution? To back up the pack and hope that someone else either overtook Nico or took him out. Ultimately it didn't quite work, but you have to give the guy the kudos for trying.

Schumacher was like Senna - totally ruthless and rather insensitive. Incidentally, Senna also has a track record for taking other drivers out in attempting to win the world title. Suzuka '89 springs to mind.

Hamilton is more like Prost - uses his brain more rather than trying to take out someone.



> Either way, he has no class. He's a surly sulker, a tax avoider, who seems incapable of opening his mouth without putting his foot in it.



No racing driver is perfect - I've been involved in motorsport for twenty something years, both on the engineering and media side of things, and a fan of the sport for far longer than that. Most of not all drivers I got to know (and date) are surly sulkers when things aren't going their way. And in the heat of the moment, things can be said without thinking of the consequences. That's just racing drivers for you. At the end of the day, they're human, just like you or I.

But that's an extremely harsh judgement on someone you don't know.


----------



## Drago (3 Nov 2019)

Of course I don't know him. He came from the slums.


----------



## Grant Fondo (3 Nov 2019)

Drago said:


> Of course I don't know him. He came from the slums.


That actually made me laugh...but i still think he is a great champion.


----------



## Beebo (3 Nov 2019)

I spent the day at Brands Hatch watching the Truck Racing, far more exciting that F1. 
Those trucks are something else. 
But well done Lewis, I’d like to see him in a truck. Barry Sheen raced them for a few years.


----------



## Reynard (14 Nov 2019)

Yayyyyyyyyyyyyyy!!!  Formula E back live on the BBC for a second season on the trot. Happy Reynard!!! 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/motorsport/50410978


----------



## Phaeton (14 Nov 2019)




----------



## dave r (14 Nov 2019)

Lorenzo's last race this weekend at Valencia

https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/9...e-lorenzo-announces-motogp-retirement-updated


----------



## derrick (14 Nov 2019)

Drago said:


> The media are going nuts. They've missed the minor, but crucial, point that Hamilton won't become world champion until he gets to the end of the season, and he has to do so without being disqualified from the championship. Unlikely to be an issue, but Schumacher managed such a disqualification in 1997
> 
> *Either way, he has no class. He's a surly sulker, a tax avoider, who seems incapable of opening his mouth without putting his foot in it.*


Remiends me of someone on here.


----------



## Smokin Joe (14 Nov 2019)

dave r said:


> Lorenzo's last race this weekend at Valencia
> 
> https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/9...e-lorenzo-announces-motogp-retirement-updated


Well earned too as he's had a great career. I've only just got back into following Moto GP since getting the full BT Sports package last month, not having seen any since the BBC lost the viewing rights. I was astonished to see that Rossi is still riding, he is no longer the rider he was and must really love the sport to keep plugging away. I was also pleasantly surprised to learn that Cal Crutchlow has some wins under his belt, he seemed to be the type of rider who threw victories away through a combination of bad luck and unforced errors in his earlier years. I honestly thought he would not be around the top class for long and I am pleasantly surprised to be proved wrong.


----------



## dave r (14 Nov 2019)

Smokin Joe said:


> Well earned too as he's had a great career. I've only just got back into following Moto GP since getting the full BT Sports package last month, not having seen any since the BBC lost the viewing rights. I was astonished to see that Rossi is still riding, he is no longer the rider he was and must really love the sport to keep plugging away. I was also pleasantly surprised to learn that Cal Crutchlow has some wins under his belt, he seemed to be the type of rider who threw victories away through a combination of bad luck and unforced errors in his earlier years. I honestly thought he would not be around the top class for long and I am pleasantly surprised to be proved wrong.



Yes he's had a great career, but he struggled at Ducati and it took a long time to get it sorted, likewise this season at Honda, he's struggled to adapt to the bike, no confidence in the front end being part of the problem, I think this seasons injuries finally made his mind up. I agree about Rossl, he's a long way past his best and someone should have a word and suggest to him its time to quit.


----------



## Reynard (14 Nov 2019)

The way I see it, Lorenzo is yet another victim of Honda pandering to their Chosen One.

Never been a fan of Jorge, but I think he's been really hard done by, and chapeau to him for telling Honda where to stick it.


----------



## Phaeton (15 Nov 2019)

Smokin Joe said:


> I was astonished to see that Rossi is still riding, he is no longer the rider he was and must really love the sport to keep plugging away.


I'm not convinced of that, I just think the bar has gone up, But the thought of MotoGP without Rossi is just wrong  I've been watching him for 25 years.


----------



## dave r (15 Nov 2019)

Phaeton said:


> I'm not convinced of that, I just think the bar has gone up, But the thought of MotoGP without Rossi is just wrong  I've been watching him for 25 years.



Even the greatest champions reach the point where its time to bring the curtain down on their career and Rossi, great though he was, is past that point.


----------



## Phaeton (15 Nov 2019)

dave r said:


> Even the greatest champions reach the point where its time to bring the curtain down on their career and Rossi, great though he was, is past that point.


I know you're right but I'm talking with my heart not my head


----------



## dave r (15 Nov 2019)

Phaeton said:


> I know you're right but I'm talking with my heart not my head



I know, I've always been a Rossi fan.


----------



## raleighnut (15 Nov 2019)

Phaeton said:


> I'm not convinced of that, I just think the bar has gone up, But the thought of MotoGP without Rossi is just wrong  I've been watching him for 25 years.


Same here, I always followed Alex Creville when he played second fiddle to Mick Doohan and after Alex retired I had to choose someone else and there was Valentino who I'd followed through 125's and 250's'

Last 500 world champion and 1st 'Moto GP' champion, I hope he's got one last title left in him to really finish his career as the GOAT


----------



## Phaeton (15 Nov 2019)

raleighnut said:


> I hope he's got one last title left in him to really finish his career as the GOAT


I don't think he will, but to me he always will be


----------



## Smokin Joe (15 Nov 2019)

Is Rossi now the only rider left who has competed on two strokes?


----------



## Phaeton (15 Nov 2019)

Smokin Joe said:


> Is Rossi now the only rider left who has competed on two strokes?


Interesting question & I suspect you are correct But!


> *2011*
> The end of two-strokes in GP racing as the 125 class is the last to give them up to be replaced by Moto3 four-strokes. Nicolas Tirol takes the title.


So you'd have to look at all the riders & see if anybody was riding before 2010 potentially Call Crutchlow & maybe Jorge Lorenzo


----------



## Pumpkin the robot (15 Nov 2019)

Plenty still in there that have ridden 2 strokes (albeit 125s), Marquez being one of them (and 125 champion in 2010)


----------



## Jenkins (17 Nov 2019)

If you haven't seen it yet, enjoy the F1 on C4 tonight.


----------



## Reynard (17 Nov 2019)

Jenkins said:


> If you haven't seen it yet, enjoy the F1 on C4 tonight.



Mmmmmmm, yes, well, it was one of *those* wasn't it? 

And it was sod's law the driver steward was who it was. Is he drawing the short straw with these or what?


----------



## Phaeton (17 Nov 2019)

Result has been changed for those that want to find it, for those that haven't see it yet I'll not post about it here. But you can check https://www.skysports.com/f1/news


----------



## Reynard (17 Nov 2019)

Oh, so yet *more* hokey cokey in the results, huh?


----------



## dave r (18 Nov 2019)

Reynard said:


> Oh, so yet *more* hokey cokey in the results, huh?



Yes, he was being a bit ambitious, and the Ferrari debrief could have been entertaining.


----------



## Phaeton (18 Nov 2019)

dave r said:


> Yes, he wad being a bit ambitious


Yes but I wouldn't have said 100%, to me it was more 70/30, the young lad has to learn he can't offer gaps like that, but I was almost in tears for him though, he's building nicely, but whether he has his leaders raw talent is another matter, I do hope he has. As to the other silver car, why is he still there, he's a very talented driver, but he's a Jenson, if everything is not 100% he goes off the boil, they have missed a trick not putting Ocon in there & giving Hamilton some competition to force him to raise his game even further.


----------



## dave r (18 Nov 2019)

Phaeton said:


> Yes but I wouldn't have said 100%, to me it was more 70/30, the young lad has to learn he can't offer gaps like that, but I was almost in tears for him though, he's building nicely, but whether he has his leaders raw talent is another matter, I do hope he has. As to the other silver car, why is he still there, he's a very talented driver, but he's a Jenson, if everything is not 100% he goes off the boil, they have missed a trick not putting Ocon in there & giving Hamilton some competition to force him to raise his game even further.



He should have been paying more attention to his mirrors, and Hamilton should have been a bit more cautious. I rate Botas but he seems a bit too nice, I rate Ocon as well, but I suspect he would have seriously ruffled Hamilton's feathers had he been his team mate.


----------



## icowden (18 Nov 2019)

I thought Hamilton was very magnanimous in taking the blame. I wonder if internally he was thinking "I should have been more cautious around a rookie"?
Mind you isn't it "lucky" that Vettel taking out LeClerc was judged to be a racing incident so he didn't get any more points on his license...


----------



## Phaeton (18 Nov 2019)

dave r said:


> Hamilton should have been a bit more cautious.





icowden said:


> "I should have been more cautious around a rookie"?


I think he'll look at it the other way, in future I will be more obvious & more forceful


----------



## Reynard (18 Nov 2019)

Phaeton said:


> Yes but I wouldn't have said 100%, to me it was more 70/30, the young lad has to learn he can't offer gaps like that, but I was almost in tears for him though, he's building nicely, but whether he has his leaders raw talent is another matter, I do hope he has.



IMHO Alex's racecraft and maturity is way better than Max's at this stage in his career. It's all well and good having raw talent and outright speed, but you need the head to go along with it. And that will always be Max's downfall.



> As to the other silver car, why is he still there, he's a very talented driver, but he's a Jenson, if everything is not 100% he goes off the boil, they have missed a trick not putting Ocon in there & giving Hamilton some competition to force him to raise his game even further.



I'm not so sure. I think this is more a reflection of how much *better* Lewis is than everyone else. Doesn't matter who you put in the second car, they're all going to look ordinary no matter who they are. Look at rallying for instance - Sebastian Loeb and Sebastian Ogier. They are both in a completely different galaxy to the other competitors, and you can't say that guys like Latvala, Mikkelsen, Neuville and Tanak etc are shabby...


----------



## Reynard (18 Nov 2019)

icowden said:


> I thought Hamilton was very magnanimous in taking the blame. I wonder if internally he was thinking "I should have been more cautious around a rookie"?
> Mind you isn't it "lucky" that Vettel taking out LeClerc was judged to be a racing incident so he didn't get any more points on his license...



Actually, having seen it, I think Lewis was right to hold his hands up. He doesn't often make mistakes, but he did there. Came from too far back into a gap that was closing.

Will agree that Seb is something of a lucky boy, but Charles isn't entirely innocent there either. I can see why the stewards made the decision they did. The fact that both of them were out on the spot probably had a lot to do with it as well - if one of them had continued, then yeah, penalties probably would have been applied.

The bit that got up my dander is why the stewards took so long to apply the penalty to Lewis, denying Carlos Sainz his chance up on the podium. (That's brill from McLaren btw, first podium since 2012!) They were pretty quick to penalise Kvyat in Austin the other week...


----------



## Phaeton (18 Nov 2019)

Reynard said:


> IMHO Alex's racecraft and maturity is way better than Max's at this stage in his career.


Totally agree


Reynard said:


> I'm not so sure. I think this is more a reflection of how much *better* Lewis is than everyone else. Doesn't matter who you put in the second car, they're all going to look ordinary no matter who they are.


Not convinced, I'd like to see him pushed more, as I think if you did he'd be even better.


----------



## Reynard (18 Nov 2019)

Phaeton said:


> Not convinced, I'd like to see him pushed more, as I think if you did he'd be even better.



The trouble is, who would be good enough to do just that, at this point in time?


----------



## Phaeton (18 Nov 2019)

Reynard said:


> The trouble is, who would be good enough to do just that, at this point in time?


I don't know, one of the young guns, Ocon has talent, I'd like to see Russell in a competitive car, I'm sure there are others in the Merc stable, they missed both Sainz & Ricciardo. I think Bottas is a very good driver on his day, but he doesn't have enough days, he's a reasonable No2, but the car is flattering him currently. I'm sad to say this because when he was at Williams I was all for giving him the drive, but he just hasn't lived up to the promise.


----------



## Reynard (18 Nov 2019)

Phaeton said:


> I don't know.



My point exactly. There really isn't anyone at the moment.



> I think Bottas is a very good driver on his day, but he doesn't have enough days, he's a reasonable No2, but the car is flattering him currently. I'm sad to say this because when he was at Williams I was all for giving him the drive, but he just hasn't lived up to the promise.



If we took Lewis out of the equation, then Valtteri would be talked about as one of the best of his generation.

Those of us who lived through the 1980s, where you had Prost, Senna, Piquet, Mansell, Lauda et al all pushing each other to the limit, don't realise how lucky we were to have had so many top class drivers racing in F1 at the same time. They all had their strengths and weaknesses, so it was very much swings and roundabouts between them.

Can't say much about the 60s and 70s, as I only started watching motor racing halfway through the 1982 season...


----------



## dave r (18 Nov 2019)

Brothers on the same team now that Lorenzo has walked away.

https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/934352/1/official-alex-marquez-gets-repsol-honda-ride


----------



## Phaeton (18 Nov 2019)

dave r said:


> Brothers on the same team now that Lorenzo has walked away.
> 
> https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/934352/1/official-alex-marquez-gets-repsol-honda-ride


Watched the hi-lights tonight it was carnage in both the Moto3 & Moto 1 races, some very lucky racers.


----------



## classic33 (18 Nov 2019)

If you watch the two Ferrari's, you can see that the rear of Vettels rear(driven) wheel makes contact with the front(undriven) wheel on Leclercs car.

Two wheels, with the opposite sides making contact. Leclercs car can be seen to lift slightly on the right front.


----------



## Reynard (18 Nov 2019)

classic33 said:


> If you watch the two Ferrari's, you can see that the rear of Vettels rear(driven) wheel makes contact with the front(undriven) wheel on Leclercs car.
> 
> Two wheels, with the opposite sides making contact. Leclercs car can be seen to lift slightly on the right front.



I think Seb knew exactly what he was doing there, drifting across the line like that. But there had been a fair bit of tit-for-tat prior to that. Sort of reminiscent of Plato v Sutton at Snett this year...


----------



## classic33 (18 Nov 2019)

Reynard said:


> I think Seb knew exactly what he was doing there, drifting across the line like that. But there had been a fair bit of tit-for-tat prior to that. Sort of reminiscent of Plato v Sutton at Snett this year...


Didn't get of Scott free though, did he?


----------



## Reynard (18 Nov 2019)

classic33 said:


> Didn't get of Scott free though, did he?



True, but both Jason and Ash carried on, and JP was chucked to the back of the grid for the next race.

I think - and I can see where the stewards were coming from on this one - that the reason Seb and Charles both got off scott free was that they were out of the race on the spot after that moment of argy-bargy.

Now I don't think they *should* have gotten off scott free, especially since they effectively kiboshed Lance Stroll's race thanks to the debris they left on the circuit. OK, we've been moaning about the stewards all season - the only consistent thing about them is their inconsistency - but IMHO the sporting regs are as much, if not more to blame for the current omnishambles.

I'd prefer to see a touring car style penalty system instead, where you let the cars race, no silly and ineffective time penalties except for clear safety violations e.g. unsafe release from pit stop, but then grid drop penalties are applied for the next race, and / or demotion in the results to behind the driver that was impeded.


----------



## dave r (19 Nov 2019)

Phaeton said:


> Watched the hi-lights tonight it was carnage in both the Moto3 & Moto 1 races, some very lucky racers.



I haven't seen it yet but those races often are


----------



## Drago (19 Nov 2019)

Reynard said:


> I think Seb knew exactly what he was doing there, drifting across the line like that. But there had been a fair bit of tit-for-tat prior to that. Sort of reminiscent of Plato v Sutton at Snett this year...


I think that was knock for knock. In Vettels defence he was squeezed a bit tight, is entitled to make a single defensive manoeuvre, and LeClerc's front wheel was not forward of Vettels rear so the sporting regulations give Vettel the priority and pit the bonus on Leclerc to yield.

In Leclercs defence Vettels move wasnt necessary, as Vettell had apexed the previous corner later and was carrying more speed so would have stayed ahead anyway, they weren't in a DRS zone so Leclrec couldn't have immediately come back at him, and Vettel knew exactly where Ledrerc was, and hes a racer so isnt going to yield unless he really has to (although it could be argued that he really did have to and suffered the consequences of not doing so).

I think the Marshall's made the right call. They both got punished for it by losing all the points they were up for.


----------



## Reynard (19 Nov 2019)

It's difficult initially when you're listening on the radio - you can only go by what the commentators say. But watching the highlights later, both were culpable - albeit not entirely equally.

Neither were in the right, but Seb was more in the wrong than Charles if you see what I mean.

The bit that irks me, is that Seb has a history of taking drivers (and teammates) out if things aren't going his way, so yes, I think this should have been taken into account when the stewards made their decision.


----------



## dave r (19 Nov 2019)

Reynard said:


> It's difficult initially when you're listening on the radio - you can only go by what the commentators say. But watching the highlights later, both were culpable - albeit not entirely equally.
> 
> Neither were in the right, but Seb was more in the wrong than Charles if you see what I mean.
> 
> The bit that irks me, is that Seb has a history of taking drivers (and teammates) out if things aren't going his way, so yes, I think this should have been taken into account when the stewards made their decision.



They called both drivers to a meeting at Maranello to discuss the incident afterwards.


https://www.crash.net/f1/news/934346/1/ferrari-summon-drivers-maranello-inquest-after-brazil-crash


----------



## Reynard (20 Nov 2019)

dave r said:


> They called both drivers to a meeting at Maranello to discuss the incident afterwards.
> 
> 
> https://www.crash.net/f1/news/934346/1/ferrari-summon-drivers-maranello-inquest-after-brazil-crash



I'll imagine someone made them an offer they couldn't refuse...


----------



## Reynard (20 Nov 2019)

Don't forget that the opening two rounds of the new Formula E season take place on Friday and Saturday on the Diriya circuit.

Live coverage both mornings from 11 am on the BBC red button.


----------



## Reynard (22 Nov 2019)

Ah, now that was a race to warm the cockles of one's heart. 

Hope tomorrow will be equally good.


----------



## Phaeton (22 Nov 2019)

Reynard said:


> Ah, now that was a race to warm the cockles of one's heart.


What was?


----------



## Reynard (22 Nov 2019)

Phaeton said:


> What was?



Opening round of Formula E. Good clean racing (mostly), a nice dollop of tactical chess and some banging overtakes.


----------



## Phaeton (22 Nov 2019)

Reynard said:


> Opening round of Formula E. Good clean racing (mostly), a nice dollop of tactical chess and some banging overtakes.


Erm I thought it was tomorrow


----------



## Reynard (22 Nov 2019)

Phaeton said:


> Erm I thought it was tomorrow



It's a double header, first race today, second race tomorrow... Friday is sort of the equivalent of Sunday in Saudi...

Mind, there's always the rerun this evening on the red button


----------



## Phaeton (22 Nov 2019)

I liked the website calendar sync button


----------



## Reynard (23 Nov 2019)

Eh, race 2 was pretty messy. Right guy won to be fair, but still waiting on a bunch of investigations to be sorted by the stewards, as several someones were a bit naughty on the safety car restarts...

Oh, and I want to top Mitch Evans... Bloomin eejit!!!


----------



## Phaeton (23 Nov 2019)

Watched race one last night was best race on I've seen but still don't like the tracks & it was still confusing


----------



## derrick (23 Nov 2019)

Yawn, Like watching paint dry,


----------



## Smokin Joe (23 Nov 2019)

derrick said:


> Yawn, Like watching paint dry,


Motor racing would be vastly improved if the drivers had to be drunk before they went out on track.


----------



## Reynard (23 Nov 2019)

Phaeton said:


> Watched race one last night was best race on I've seen but still don't like the tracks & it was still confusing



Told you yesterday's race was a cracker


----------



## Reynard (23 Nov 2019)

derrick said:


> Yawn, Like watching paint dry,



Might I direct you to short oval racing then?


----------



## Phaeton (23 Nov 2019)

Just watched the Jag ipace race now THAT is something that should be developed


----------



## derrick (23 Nov 2019)

Phaeton said:


> Just watched the Jag ipace race now THAT is something that should be developed


Think they should just scrap e car racing,


----------



## Phaeton (23 Nov 2019)

derrick said:


> Think they should just acrap e car racing,


But it's the garlic bread


----------



## raleighnut (23 Nov 2019)

Smokin Joe said:


> Motor racing would be vastly improved if the drivers had to be drunk before they went out on track.


You've been to the 'Plum Pudding' meeting on Boxing Day at Mallory.


----------



## Reynard (1 Dec 2019)

raleighnut said:


> You've been to the 'Plum Pudding' meeting on Boxing Day at Mallory.



A friend of mine always marshals at the Plum Pudding as it's her local circuit. Says it's a right blast.


----------



## Reynard (1 Dec 2019)

Listening to the final F1 race of the season on 5 Live SX. A bit zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, but Ferrari...


----------



## Phaeton (1 Dec 2019)

Spoiler: Don't read if you've not seen the F1 result.



Sky you absolute bunch of stupid, inconsiderate, moronic, useless, insert multiple abusive comments. I was out all day at my fathers 95th & my uncles 90th birthday celebration. So came back in time to watch the 18:30 re-run, switched on the laptop on at 18:25 only to see them show Hamilton crossing the finish line to a commentary of "Hamilton wins, leads from pole to finish along with the fastest lap" WTF, which planet do these IDIOTS live on.


----------



## Supersuperleeds (1 Dec 2019)

Reynard said:


> I really like watching Formula E... Mind, there is this...
> 
> View attachment 487369
> 
> ...



Blimey, look at the size of his helmet.


----------



## dave r (17 Dec 2019)

https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/935154/1/iannone-suspended-failing-fim-drugs-test

I'm not sure what he's been doing but he's broken the 11th commandment, which is a shame as I liked the rider.


----------



## Reynard (4 Jan 2020)

Eeeeeee, look what I found on the Tube of You... 


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcFhzrc3djE


----------



## raleighnut (4 Jan 2020)

I've been in that SAAB driven by Stig (or possibly an earlier version) around Donnington Park at the launch day event for the 99 Turbo in 1978. (I worked at the main dealership in Leicester at the time, Status Garages)


----------



## Reynard (4 Jan 2020)

raleighnut said:


> I've been in that SAAB driven by Stig (or possibly an earlier version) around Donnington Park at the launch day event for the 99 Turbo in 1978. (I worked at the main dealership in Leicester at the time, Status Garages)



I remember you saying.  There were also pork pies involved, IIRC...


----------



## sheddy (4 Jan 2020)

I thought Mallory Park had folded ?
Shame if true.


----------



## Reynard (4 Jan 2020)

sheddy said:


> I thought Mallory Park had folded ?
> Shame if true.



No, Mallory Park is still fine. It's Rockingham that went tits up.


----------



## raleighnut (4 Jan 2020)

sheddy said:


> I thought Mallory Park had folded ?
> Shame if true.


It closed in 2013 but was re-opened under a new management, this was due to noise issues raised by people who had moved into the area recently who to this day are trying to close the circuit.


----------



## dave r (9 Jan 2020)

dave r said:


> https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/935154/1/iannone-suspended-failing-fim-drugs-test
> 
> I'm not sure what he's been doing but he's broken the 11th commandment, which is a shame as I liked the rider.



B sample positive as well

https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/935406/1/iannone-b-sample-positive-quantity-small


----------



## Reynard (9 Jan 2020)

dave r said:


> B sample positive as well
> 
> https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/935406/1/iannone-b-sample-positive-quantity-small



Oops...


----------



## Reynard (17 Jan 2020)

Don't forget tomorrow's E-Prix from Santiago - practice, qually and race all live on the i-player and via the BBC website.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/motorsport/50352661


----------



## Reynard (15 Feb 2020)

E-Prix from Mexico City tonight - race start 10 pm GMT

Top 6 on the grid: Lotterer, Evans, De Vries, Buemi, Bird, Frijns. Looks like it will be a cracker with the BMWs and the Techeetas only in midfield and the Mahindras both at the back. So hold on tight, folks!


----------



## Dirk (19 Feb 2020)

Anyone know what this grill arrangement is for?
I've seen it on Mercedes and Williams F1 cars during todays testing.
Can't say I've ever seen anything similar, but I'm presuming that it's for aerodynamic data capture. Or it may be for stopping Max overtaking.........
Looks a bit dodgy to me.


----------



## Reynard (19 Feb 2020)

It's to capture the actual airflow pattern off the front wheels and wing assembly and compare it to the Computational Fluid Dynamics model.

Uses an assembly of pitot tubes.


----------



## Dirk (19 Feb 2020)

Reynard said:


> It's to capture the actual airflow pattern off the front wheels and wing assembly and compare it to the Computational Fluid Dynamics model.
> 
> Uses an assembly of pitot tubes.


Thought it might be something along those lines. Ta.


----------



## Smokin Joe (19 Feb 2020)

It looks like he's gone off and collected a fence.


----------



## cosmicbike (19 Feb 2020)

You wait until the yellow paint comes out, then they look proper messy. Noticed Williams were using it on their diffuser today.


----------



## Beebo (19 Feb 2020)

If Merc are sandbagging as usual in testing then we could be in for a terrible season of racing. 
they are already miles ahead on day 1.
I hope the others can close the gap quickly to at least give Hamilton some competition.


----------



## Phaeton (19 Feb 2020)

Let's hope RB are the ones that are sandbagging, they are the sneaky ones on the grid.


----------



## Reynard (29 Feb 2020)

Formula E from Marrakesh live on BBC 2.

What could possibly go wrong?


----------



## Phaeton (29 Feb 2020)

Reynard said:


> Formula E from Marrakesh live on BBC 2.
> 
> What could possibly go wrong?


Corvid-19?


----------



## Reynard (29 Feb 2020)

Phaeton said:


> Corvid-19?



Crows?!?!?!?!?!?! 

Unless you know something I don't...


----------



## Phaeton (29 Feb 2020)

Reynard said:


> Crows?!?!?!?!?!?!
> 
> Unless you know something I don't...


Manuel & I have something in common, "I know nothing"


----------



## Reynard (29 Feb 2020)

Phaeton said:


> Manuel & I have something in common, "I know nothing"



I just hope you don't have any of them hamsters...


----------



## Phaeton (29 Feb 2020)

Reynard said:


> I just hope you don't have any of them hamsters...


Funny that you should mention them there Rattus Rattus Hamsters my daughter has just taken in 4 from the Rattus Rattus rescue for the grandkids


----------



## Phaeton (9 Mar 2020)

I'll just leave this here in case you have time to watch


View: https://youtu.be/fMCTV-pOoRI


----------



## dave r (11 Mar 2020)

F1 and Ross Brawn has said that if a team has been refused entry to a host country the race will be postponed, but if a team decides to not attend the race weekend will go ahead.

https://www.gpfans.com/en/articles/...hwb94BcVQW0LXs70Lsrc2hzQO0-qlRlk6SJD9M9lnRvPo

They've also said that the Bahrain F1 will be held behind closed doors.

https://www.crash.net/f1/news/937191/1/bahrain-gp-bans-fans-coronavirus-prevention-measures


----------



## Beebo (12 Mar 2020)

dave r said:


> F1 and Ross Brawn has said that if a team has been refused entry to a host country the race will be postponed, but if a team decides to not attend the race weekend will go ahead.
> 
> https://www.gpfans.com/en/articles/...hwb94BcVQW0LXs70Lsrc2hzQO0-qlRlk6SJD9M9lnRvPo
> 
> ...


McLaren have withdrawn from the Australian GP. 
Let’s see who else withdraws.


----------



## Phaeton (12 Mar 2020)

Beebo said:


> McLaren have withdrawn from the Australian GP.
> Let’s see who else withdraws.


They have logically also withdrawn from Bahrain as well as it's next week, otherwise it's just a publicity stunt.


----------



## Beebo (12 Mar 2020)

Phaeton said:


> They have logically also withdrawn from Bahrain as well as it's next week, otherwise it's just a publicity stunt.


Apparently a team member already in Oz has tested positive.


----------



## Phaeton (12 Mar 2020)

Beebo said:


> Apparently a team member already in Oz has tested positive.


Correct so with an incubation period of 14 days, there is logically no way they can race in Bahrain which is in 10 days time.


----------



## Beebo (12 Mar 2020)

The Oz GP has been postponed now. 
I presume Bahrain will have to follow suite.


----------



## dave r (12 Mar 2020)

Thats a shame, but I was surprised they were even going to run it


https://www.crash.net/f1/news/937380/1/australian-grand-prix-be-called-coronavirus-outbreak


----------



## Phaeton (13 Mar 2020)

According to the BBC it could be May before the F1 season starts https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/51871615 very strange that the BBC are out in front & Sky is well behind https://www.skysports.com/f1


----------



## Jody (13 Mar 2020)

https://www.planetf1.com/news/bahrain-vietnam-gps-cancelled-2/

Both Bahrain and Vietnam now cancelled. PF1 reckon the first race could now be Azerbaijan in June

https://www.planetf1.com/news/azerbaijan-grand-prix-2020/


----------



## classic33 (13 Mar 2020)

Phaeton said:


> According to the BBC it could be May before the F1 season starts https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/51871615 very strange that the BBC are out in front & Sky is well behind https://www.skysports.com/f1


Sky covered the cancellation just after midnight this morning.


----------



## Beebo (14 Mar 2020)

classic33 said:


> Sky covered the cancellation just after midnight this morning.


They were still advertising Sky F1 TV this afternoon.


----------



## Jenkins (17 Mar 2020)

Earlier on today it was announced that the first 3 BTCC meetings of the year (Donington Park, Brands Hatch & Silverstone) were being postponed due to the Covid 19 restrictions
http://www.btcc.net/2020/03/17/statement-from-toca/
Then an announcement from Motorsport UK (the UK governing body) put a stop to virtually all race meetings in the UK until May, so nothing from clubbies such as the BARC meeting I was heading to on Sunday up to the Goodwood Members' Meeting. https://www.motorsportuk.org/motorsport-uk-covid-19-update/
Even the short oval meetings and the British Speedway meetings have been suspended: http://www.spedeworth.co.uk/news2.php?id=3387 & https://www.speedwaygb.co.uk/news.php?extend.37980
There may be some karting not run under the Motorsport UK auspices, but that seems to be it for motorsport spectators.


----------



## Reynard (17 Mar 2020)

That's pretty well much what I was expecting, given that the government has pulled the plug on the emergency services attending public events...


----------



## Beebo (19 Mar 2020)

The first 7 F1 races are cancelled. Including Monaco. 
Apparently F1 needs a minimum of 8 races to count as a full season. 
Given the logistics of staging the Monaco GP, it is almost certainly can’t be rearranged.


----------



## Phaeton (19 Mar 2020)

Some good news then, it's important to the prestige of the sport, but it's never produced a good race yet.


----------



## Reynard (19 Mar 2020)

Le Mans has been put back to September...


----------



## Jenkins (24 Mar 2020)

UK shutdown of motorsport now extended until the end of June. So no BTCC, British GTs, etc and the GT World Series events at Brands Hatch & Silverstone in May have also gone.
https://www.motorsportuk.org/covid-19/


----------



## classic33 (24 Mar 2020)

First race of June cancelled
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/52003722


----------



## Reynard (24 Mar 2020)

Jenkins said:


> UK shutdown of motorsport now extended until the end of June. So no BTCC, British GTs, etc and the GT World Series events at Brands Hatch & Silverstone in May have also gone.
> https://www.motorsportuk.org/covid-19/



Yes, I saw that on my Book of Faces feed...

Ho hum.

Might dig out my TOCA '98 game instead. If I can find it.


----------



## Jenkins (24 Mar 2020)

I have all the the BTCC videos & DVDs going back to 1988, but I'd need to get the VCR out of the loft. My TV does have a SCART socket


----------



## Reynard (24 Mar 2020)

Jenkins said:


> I have all the the BTCC videos & DVDs going back to 1988, but I'd need to get the VCR out of the loft. My TV does have a SCART socket



Sounds like a plan. I'm going to do an ASCAR binge watch.


----------



## Phaeton (14 May 2020)

Lots of movement in F1, Vettel out on his ear, Sainz taking his seat at Ferrari & Ricciardo to Mclaren.

Think it's a brave decision for Ferrari, not because he hasn't the talent I believe he has, but they will have 2 drivers who both want the championship, not sure they can handle that, they fight each other Hamilton either beats them both, or on a bad day picks up the points they are sharing between them, knowing his team mate won't be allowed to take points off him.

Ricciardo to Mclaren is a no brainer, assuming they continue to make progress they are moving away from the other 5 towards the top 3, just not quickly enough, but maybe the new engine next year will let them bridge the gap.

I can see Renault pulling out, poor Ocon he just can't catch a break.


----------



## Reynard (14 May 2020)

I think that's Sainz's career down the can... It'll be like the Schumacher era all over again (except far less successful), with the #2 driver being shafted at every opportunity going, more so if he gets in the way of the "Golden Boy".

IMHO Carlos should've stayed put, regardless of however much money Ferrari were offering him. McLaren are on the up, more so now that they'll have the Mercedes engines again, plus Lole Jr and Lando Norris worked well together.

The second Ferrari seat is a poisoned chalice.

Wonder what will happen to Vettel. Will he end up at Renault? If so, that's some kick in the teeth, albeit a deserved one...


----------



## Phaeton (14 May 2020)

Reynard said:


> I think that's Sainz's career down the can...
> The second Ferrari seat is a poisoned chalice.


I really do hope you are wrong, I don't think CS Snr would have allowed a move for his boy to be a 2nd


Reynard said:


> Wonder what will happen to Vettel. Will he end up at Renault? If so, that's some kick in the teeth, albeit a deserved one...


As above I don't think there will be a seat to have, they will blame Covid & pull out, possibly along with Williams, I do hope I'm wrong, but either way I can't see Vettel on the grid, not in F1 that is, the question is has he had a call from Doodleland.


----------



## figbat (14 May 2020)

Sainz will be a support driver at Ferrari - they have gone all-in on Leclerc. There was a rumour a while back that Lewis fancied a go in a red jumpsuit but clearly now is not the time for that, so any chance of a Merc/Ferrari job=swap for Vettel has gone. Although, he _is_ German and I don't believe Bottas has got a contract after 2020... 

McLaren does look promising for Daniel but the complication of fitting a new engine into an old chassis can't be the best way of moving up the grid. Vettel at Renault? If this happens it'll be because he's desperate to stay in F1 - I'm sure he'd go well in WEC or DTM or Formula E if he could take the pay cut.

Can I have an each-way fiver on Vettel to Merc?


----------



## dave r (14 May 2020)

figbat said:


> Sainz will be a support driver at Ferrari - they have gone all-in on Leclerc. There was a rumour a while back that Lewis fancied a go in a red jumpsuit but clearly now is not the time for that, so any chance of a Merc/Ferrari job=swap for Vettel has gone. Although, he _is_ German and I don't believe Bottas has got a contract after 2020...
> 
> McLaren does look promising for Daniel but the complication of fitting a new engine into an old chassis can't be the best way of moving up the grid. Vettel at Renault? If this happens it'll be because he's desperate to stay in F1 - I'm sure he'd go well in WEC or DTM or Formula E if he could take the pay cut.
> 
> Can I have an each-way fiver on Vettel to Merc?



I can't see Vettel at Mercedes, if he joins Hamilton there Toto Wolfe will be bulk buying tin hats and flac jackets


----------



## Phaeton (14 May 2020)

No chance of Vettel to Merc


----------



## dave r (14 May 2020)

Phaeton said:


> No chance of Vettel to Merc



I originally thought that Vettel might go to Maclaren and build a team round him, but now Ricciardo has that seat I think Vettel might retire or go into another formula.


----------



## figbat (14 May 2020)

Phaeton said:


> No chance of Vettel to Merc


Slim chance, certainly - that's why I went each-way. 

But...


Toto Wolff said:


> Sebastian is a great driver, a great personality and an enrichment for every Formula 1 team.
> With a view to the future, we are primarily committed to loyalty to our current Mercedes drivers, but of course we cannot ignore this development.


Sauce.


----------



## Reynard (14 May 2020)

Phaeton said:


> I really do hope you are wrong, I don't think CS Snr would have allowed a move for his boy to be a 2nd



Somehow I don't think so. Case of history repeating, really.



> As above I don't think there will be a seat to have, they will blame Covid & pull out, possibly along with Williams, I do hope I'm wrong, but either way I can't see Vettel on the grid, not in F1 that is, the question is has he had a call from Doodleland.



I can't see Seb racing in Formula E - he just hasn't got the nous for racing in a pack. He's only good when he's out in front in the best car. Anything else, and he's, well, bellow average.


----------



## Reynard (14 May 2020)

dave r said:


> I originally thought that Vettel might go to Maclaren and build a team round him, but now Ricciardo has that seat I think Vettel might retire or go into another formula.



Vettel wouldn't be a good fit for Mclaren - they need team players right now, not a spoiled toddler who throws the toys out of the pram at every opportunity...


----------



## Phaeton (14 May 2020)

Reynard said:


> Vettel wouldn't be a good fit for Mclaren - they need team players right now, not a spoiled toddler who throws the toys out of the pram at every opportunity...


Agreed he would be as good as taking Fernando back


----------



## Beebo (14 May 2020)

Phaeton said:


> No chance of Vettel to Merc


Agreed. It would show what a poor driver he is. Lewis would blow him away in the same car which has been designed around him.


----------



## AndyRM (14 May 2020)

Reynard said:


> Yes, I saw that on my Book of Faces feed...
> 
> Ho hum.
> 
> Might dig out my TOCA '98 game instead. If I can find it.



Man I loved the TOCA games.


----------



## Beebo (11 Jul 2020)

Rain always sorts the men from the boys. 

Hamilton was 1.2 seconds clear of everyone in qualifying. 

Like him or loath him he’s clearly head and shoulders above other current drivers. I would have loved to have seen Senna, Schumacher and Hamilton in a wet GP.


----------



## Phaeton (12 Jul 2020)

My hero of qualifying was George Russell, if he could have found another 1/4 second he would have been in Q3 in front of both Ferrari's, that is amazing for the car. Makes me think he's as good as Lando, Le Clerc, Albon if only the car was better.


----------



## Phaeton (12 Jul 2020)

Oh dear!


----------



## Reynard (12 Jul 2020)

Phaeton said:


> Oh dear!



Oh dear indeed... 

Slow burn of a race, but that last lap was absolutely *EPIC*


----------



## Phaeton (12 Jul 2020)

Reynard said:


> Oh dear indeed...
> 
> Slow burn of a race, but that last lap was absolutely *EPIC*


Great to see Lewis dominant again, but I still wish the others could catch up it's so much better racing, poor Danny almost got the places back, Checko, head in his hands, Lando is becoming a star, George sort of spoilt the weekend after yesterday, think he was just trying too hard. I hate fan boost on the scalextric version, but would have loved to have been able to dish some out today


----------



## Reynard (12 Jul 2020)

Trouble with fan boost is it's always the same drivers who get it. 

That's why I don't like it either, even if it is, in theory, a good idea.

Love the way that Lando's had the better of Lole Jr for the second weekend in a row. Sort of reinforces the thought that Ferrari were wanting an obedient and not quite so fast #2 driver.


----------



## dave r (12 Jul 2020)

It looks like someone my have broken the 11th commandment, I was wondering where the pace had come from.

https://www.crash.net/f1/news/939398/1/racing-point-f1-car-parts-impounded-mercedes-dragged-case


----------



## Beebo (2 Aug 2020)

Hamilton’s a lucky lad. wins on three tyres. 
Bottas also had a puncture but lost loads of places. 
Verstappen would have won if he hadn’t pitted to go for fastest lap. 
Both Merc cars punctured in the closing laps which suggests a tyre management issue.


----------



## Phaeton (2 Aug 2020)

Beebo said:


> Hamilton’s a lucky lad. wins on three tyres.
> Bottas also had a puncture but lost loads of places.
> Verstappen would have won if he hadn’t pitted to go for fastest lap.
> Both Merc cars punctured in the closing laps which suggests a tyre management issue.


Nice for anybody who hasn't seen it


----------



## Beebo (2 Aug 2020)

Phaeton said:


> Nice for anybody who hasn't seen it


Oops. Sorry.


----------



## Reynard (2 Aug 2020)

Beebo said:


> Oops. Sorry.



Black & white flag for you!


----------



## matticus (3 Aug 2020)

Spoiler: More spoiler



Quite an exciting last 3 laps.

My favourite moment was the exchange between Mad Max and the pit-lane on the last lap. He's in 2nd place by about 20seconds, and has (presumably) just found out that Hamilton is going v e r y s l o w l y ...

Max: Can we win the race??
Pit: We can if you get on with it.


----------



## Kempstonian (3 Aug 2020)

Phaeton said:


> Nice for anybody who hasn't seen it


If they haven't seen it they really shouldn't be reading this thread yet. If we can't talk about a race until everybody has watched it, what's the point of the thread? People who haven't seen it can join in later can't they?


----------



## Kempstonian (3 Aug 2020)

Beebo said:


> Rain always sorts the men from the boys.
> 
> Hamilton was 1.2 seconds clear of everyone in qualifying.
> 
> Like him or loath him he’s clearly head and shoulders above other current drivers. I would have loved to have seen Senna, Schumacher and Hamilton in a wet GP.


His CAR is head and shoulders above the rest. There was a 1 second gap from the Mercs to Verstappen and the rest of the top 10 were covered by about 1 second. At the moment the only realistic challenger to Hamilton is Bottas. Does this make Bottas the second best driver on the grid? I say no.


----------



## classic33 (3 Aug 2020)

Kempstonian said:


> *If they haven't seen it they really shouldn't be reading this thread yet. * If we can't talk about a race until everybody has watched it, what's the point of the thread? People who haven't seen it can join in later can't they?


In a thread dedicated to the sport, I'd agree.


----------



## matticus (3 Aug 2020)

Kempstonian said:


> If they haven't seen it they really shouldn't be reading this thread yet. If we can't talk about a race until everybody has watched it, what's the point of the thread? People who haven't seen it can join in later can't they?


Well ... yes and no. The poster broke a general etiquette; failing to post in Spoiler tags (or similar). And in a thread that is about many things, not just the latest GP. 
(so i might think my post about Damon Hill has been replied to, so I click-thru ... bingo!) 
The post was barely an hour after the race I think? So bit of a grey area, time-wise, too.

Nevertheless, better to post a spoiler post, than start a thread with the result in the title! Social media *seems* to have left that trick behind for a few years now ... <crosses fingers> ...


----------



## Reynard (3 Aug 2020)

Mmmmmmm, I'm really digging Dan Cammish's new helmet design...


----------



## Beebo (3 Aug 2020)

Kempstonian said:


> His CAR is head and shoulders above the rest. There was a 1 second gap from the Mercs to Verstappen and the rest of the top 10 were covered by about 1 second. At the moment the only realistic challenger to Hamilton is Bottas. Does this make Bottas the second best driver on the grid? I say no.


Max is clearly the second best driver. But how often does the no 1 and 2 drive for the same team? 
maybe Rosberg when he beat Ham?


----------



## Phaeton (3 Aug 2020)

Beebo said:


> Max is clearly the second best driver. But how often does the no 1 and 2 drive for the same team?
> maybe Rosberg when he beat Ham?


Not sure it's a clear cut as that, LeClerc, Russell, Ricciardo, Norris, I personally think would push Hamilton harder, which is why they are not in the 2nd seat.


----------



## Reynard (3 Aug 2020)

Beebo said:


> Max is clearly the second best driver. But how often does the no 1 and 2 drive for the same team?
> maybe Rosberg when he beat Ham?



Nico really only won his championship because of Lewis' engine failure in Sepang, where Lewis was well on target to win that race.

Bottas is a good enough driver, he has to be in order to keep Lewis honest. In another era (or if Lewis wasn't there) he'd be considered one of the best, but the bottom line is that Lewis is a cut above the others. Plus it's not just about race weekend performance, it's also things like testing, simulator work, rapport with the technical staff...


----------



## Kempstonian (3 Aug 2020)

Well until we can put all the drivers in the same car and compare them, we'll never know who is the best driver will we? And that's never going to happen.


----------



## Reynard (3 Aug 2020)

No, but that's the beauty of the whole debate 

And it's also why one make series are so great to watch. 

But I'd love to stick Seb and Max into a touring car and let them loose with the current crop of BTCC drivers. I'll be the one sitting on the fence selling hot dogs.


----------



## Kempstonian (3 Aug 2020)

Modern F1 driver instructions: "Sit in the car, steer it and try not to spin or hit anyone else. We'll do everything else"


----------



## Phaeton (3 Aug 2020)

Kempstonian said:


> Modern F1 driver instructions: "Sit in the car, steer it and try not to spin or hit anyone else. We'll do everything else"


Bit disingenuous if that was the case then the cars would line up 2x2 & come home 2x2 which they don't so the driver must have some input.


----------



## Kempstonian (3 Aug 2020)

Phaeton said:


> Bit disingenuous if that was the case then the cars would line up 2x2 & come home 2x2 which they don't so the driver must have some input.


Yeah, they steer and try not to have accidents. The little voice on the radio tells them when to come in, when to adjust settings, when to watch tyre wear, when to stay off the kerbs, when to speed up, when they can take it easy for a bit and where they are in relation to their opponents.

Compare what they do to what drivers in the Jim Clark era used to have to manage.


----------



## Kempstonian (3 Aug 2020)

To make F1 more interesting I would ban the radio link completely and make the driver decide things.


----------



## matticus (3 Aug 2020)

Jim Clark's car actually had LESS inputs for the drivers to f**k up, and less data in the cockpit for them to absorb . Yes, the team are doing more, but that's because there is a bazillion more bytes of data available in real-time on the modern cars. Jim Clark couldn't do the work of all those engineers looking at screens - 1 brain isn't enough!

Whether this makes for better racing - or "better" drivers - is debateable of course.

The BIG difference is that Jim Clark was far more likely to die every time he started a GP. Ernest Hemingway probably wouldn't classify modern F1 in his list of _real sports_.


----------



## Smokin Joe (3 Aug 2020)

matticus said:


> Well ... yes and no. The poster broke a general etiquette; failing to post in Spoiler tags (or similar). And in a thread that is about many things, not just the latest GP.
> (so i might think my post about Damon Hill has been replied to, so I click-thru ... bingo!)
> The post was barely an hour after the race I think? So bit of a grey area, time-wise, too.
> 
> Nevertheless, better to post a spoiler post, than start a thread with the result in the title! Social media *seems* to have left that trick behind for a few years now ... <crosses fingers> ...


How the hell can anyone not know the result by now? It's been on every TV and radio news bulletin, all the papers both online and print have headlined it.

I'd go along with "If you don't want to know the result of a motor race, don't open a motorsports thread".


----------



## matticus (3 Aug 2020)

Smokin Joe said:


> How the hell can anyone not know the result by now?


"now" is not 3:58pm on race Sunday. 

But it's no big deal in this case - it's more inconsiderate when us plebs can't see a race live (e.g. most GPs and bike races). During July i (usually) have to turn off the world from 2pm to 7pm :P


----------



## raleighnut (3 Aug 2020)

Kempstonian said:


> Yeah, they steer and try not to have accidents. The little voice on the radio tells them when to come in, when to adjust settings, when to watch tyre wear, when to stay off the kerbs, when to speed up, when they can take it easy for a bit and where they are in relation to their opponents.
> 
> Compare what they do to what drivers in the Jim Clark era used to have to manage.


Yep there was a race where Jim was going through one corner either in neutral or with the clutch depressed which baffled the team. When he won the race they asked him why and he said the Oil Pressure was dropping to close to zero probably due to the oil sloshing away from the pickup in the sump through the long bend so it seemed prudent to coast through the bend to save the engine. 

Now that's skill.


----------



## Kempstonian (3 Aug 2020)

matticus said:


> "now" is not 3:58pm on race Sunday.
> 
> But it's no big deal in this case - it's more inconsiderate when us plebs can't see a race live (e.g. most GPs and bike races). During July i (usually) have to turn off the world from 2pm to 7pm :P


I watched it on Channel 4. I saw the practice and qualifying on there too.


----------



## glasgowcyclist (3 Aug 2020)

Kempstonian said:


> To make F1 more interesting I would ban the radio link completely and make the driver decide things.



Yep, pit boards only!


----------



## Reynard (3 Aug 2020)

Kempstonian said:


> To make F1 more interesting I would ban the radio link completely and make the driver decide things.



They tried that a few years ago. Didn't work very well...


----------



## Reynard (3 Aug 2020)

And in oval racing, you have spotters, which tell the drivers who is around them and where...

Although they are running in a large pack at high speed. Unlike F1, which is kind of just high speed and mostly on your ownsome.


----------



## Kempstonian (3 Aug 2020)

matticus said:


> Jim Clark's car actually had LESS inputs for the drivers to f**k up, and less data in the cockpit for them to absorb . Yes, the team are doing more, but that's because there is a bazillion more bytes of data available in real-time on the modern cars. Jim Clark couldn't do the work of all those engineers looking at screens - 1 brain isn't enough!
> 
> Whether this makes for better racing - or "better" drivers - is debateable of course.
> 
> The BIG difference is that Jim Clark was far more likely to die every time he started a GP. Ernest Hemingway probably wouldn't classify modern F1 in his list of _real sports_.


My point really is that over the years driver input has got less and less and the car has got more and more important. No matter how good a driver is he'll never win a GP driving the current Williams for example. If you put almost any other driver in the Mercedes he would have several podiums each season - not because he suddenly became a better driver but because the car is that far in front of the others.


----------



## Kempstonian (3 Aug 2020)

Reynard said:


> They tried that a few years ago. Didn't work very well...


Yeah. Funny though, the more advanced the machinery gets the more of a bore F1 becomes.


----------



## Reynard (3 Aug 2020)

Kempstonian said:


> My point really is that over the years driver input has got less and less and the car has got more and more important. No matter how good a driver is he'll never win a GP driving the current Williams for example. If you put almost any other driver in the Mercedes he would have several podiums each season - not because he suddenly became a better driver but because the car is that far in front of the others.



But hasn't that nearly always been the case, though?

It's pretty rare in F1 that there isn't a car that's the class of the field to the exclusion of others.

Merc now, before it was the Red Bull, the Brawn, Mclaren, Ferrari in the Schumacher era, Williams were the class of the field from on and off through the '90s, McLaren in 1988 - they won 15 of the 16 races...

The last time I remember (and this was the first season I watched motor racing), the driver / car combo that won the WC that wasn't the class act on the grid was Keke Rosberg in the normally-aspirated Williams-Ford back in '82...


----------



## matticus (3 Aug 2020)

Kempstonian said:


> I watched it on Channel 4. I saw the practice and qualifying on there too.


Me too - but most races aren't shown live on free-to-air telly.


----------



## Reynard (3 Aug 2020)

Kempstonian said:


> Yeah. Funny though, the more advanced the machinery gets the more of a bore F1 becomes.



There's far more to motor racing than F1


----------



## Reynard (3 Aug 2020)

matticus said:


> Me too - but most races aren't shown live on free-to-air telly.



Radio 5 Live!!! 

Didn't have a TV when I was a kid, so grew up listening to F1 on Radio 2 - Simon Taylor was the commentator back then.


----------



## Kempstonian (3 Aug 2020)

Reynard said:


> There's far more to motor racing than F1


Indeed there is. I had pretty much given up on F1 and dumped my Sky Sports package but I didn't realise that it was on Channel 4. Touring cars, Indy cars and MotoGP are what I watch mostly now.


----------



## Kempstonian (3 Aug 2020)

Reynard said:


> But hasn't that nearly always been the case, though?
> 
> It's pretty rare in F1 that there isn't a car that's the class of the field to the exclusion of others.
> 
> ...


I take your point but the other cars did still stand a chance of winning, due to the reliability factor. I used to enjoy watching it so something has changed! 😄


----------



## Reynard (3 Aug 2020)

Kempstonian said:


> Indeed there is. I had pretty much given up on F1 and dumped my Sky Sports package but I didn't realise that it was on Channel 4. Touring cars, Indy cars and MotoGP are what I watch mostly now.



Only the highlights usually. The one exception is the British GP, as it's one of the live events "ringfenced" by the government as something that must be available on free-to-air.

Never bothered with Sky F1, as I refuse to pay into Bernie's retirement fund.  I'm quite happy with C4 highlights and listening to the race live on the radio.

I've given up on MotoGP since a) it's no longer on FTA and b) Dani Pedrosa has retired.


----------



## Reynard (3 Aug 2020)

Kempstonian said:


> I take your point but the other cars did still stand a chance of winning, due to the reliability factor. I used to enjoy watching it so something has changed! 😄



The "cost-cutting" measures that mean engines must last so many races and gearboxes so many etc. If anything, the cars are *too* reliable.

Though one has to admit, the big bang turbos of the mid to late 80s made races a bit of a lottery, as you really didn't know how long the things would last before becoming so much expensive recycling...


----------



## raleighnut (3 Aug 2020)

Reynard said:


> The "cost-cutting" measures that mean engines must last so many races and gearboxes so many etc. If anything, the cars are *too* reliable.
> 
> Though one has to admit, the big bang turbos of the mid to late 80s made races a bit of a lottery, as you really didn't know how long the things would last before becoming so much expensive recycling...


Wasn't that the Colin Chapman philosophy, the car should just about last the race.


----------



## Reynard (3 Aug 2020)

raleighnut said:


> Wasn't that the Colin Chapman philosophy, the car should just about last the race.



More or less. Basically, if it didn't break, it wasn't light enough.


----------



## matticus (3 Aug 2020)

Just had a flick through the 1970s British GP results - 10-11 finishers was typical. So if you enjoy watching cars break down, the '70s were more exciting than now!


----------



## Reynard (3 Aug 2020)

The 80s were pretty similar.

And there were 26 cars on the grid for every race, not the 20 we have now.


----------



## matticus (4 Aug 2020)

Kempstonian said:


> Indeed there is. I had pretty much given up on F1 and dumped my Sky Sports package but *I didn't realise that it was on Channel 4*.


Since 2016 my friend


----------



## Kempstonian (4 Aug 2020)

matticus said:


> Since 2016 my friend


That long? Oh well it just shows how little interest I've had in F1 over the last few years then! 

Mind you I have had Sky Sports for a few of those years so I did see some races on there and didn't need to find other channels to watch it on.

The unreliabilty did cause a lot of retirements back in the day. I suppose you could call it a lottery but that's been replaced by the silly penalties they have now, where people lose grid positions for the slightest infringements. In my opinion it would be better to impose financial penalties for rule breaking, or even points deductions for serious offences, and keep the racing side out of it.


----------



## matticus (4 Aug 2020)

I think the problem is that drivers wouldn't care - apart from the 1-2 champs contenders, they all just want to win a race (at almost any cost!)


----------



## raleighnut (4 Aug 2020)

Kempstonian said:


> That long? Oh well it just shows how little interest I've had in F1 over the last few years then!
> 
> Mind you I have had Sky Sports for a few of those years so I did see some races on there and didn't need to find other channels to watch it on.
> 
> The unreliabilty did cause a lot of retirements back in the day. I suppose you could call it a lottery but that's been replaced by the silly penalties they have now, where people lose grid positions for the slightest infringements. In my opinion it would be better to impose financial penalties for rule breaking, or even points deductions for serious offences, and keep the racing side out of it.


Financial penalties would just mean the richer teams got an unfair advantage.


----------



## Kempstonian (4 Aug 2020)

raleighnut said:


> Financial penalties would just mean the richer teams got an unfair advantage.


They already have though, haven't they? I would rather see a race where everybody starts in their qualifying positions and find another way to impose penalties. Maybe that's just me though...


----------



## Reynard (4 Aug 2020)

Kempstonian said:


> They already have though, haven't they? I would rather see a race where everybody starts in their qualifying positions and find another way to impose penalties. Maybe that's just me though...



Something akin to success ballast like in touring cars, perhaps?


----------



## Smokin Joe (4 Aug 2020)

Reynard said:


> Something akin to success ballast like in touring cars, perhaps?


It isn't real racing if you penalise success by imposing restrictions on the best cars or drivers. It is up to the other teams to catch up, not the better ones to slow down.


----------



## matticus (4 Aug 2020)

Smokin Joe said:


> It isn't real racing if you penalise success by imposing restrictions on the best cars or drivers. It is up to the other teams to catch up, not the better ones to slow down.


we're talking about penalising RULE BREAKERS, not the best cars! (and that mainly means dangerous driving)


----------



## Reynard (4 Aug 2020)

Smokin Joe said:


> It isn't real racing if you penalise success by imposing restrictions on the best cars or drivers. It is up to the other teams to catch up, not the better ones to slow down.



Handicapping works well in other sports (horse racing and golf to name but two) as well as motor racing. There's a history of handicap races in motorsport stretching back to the sport's early days at Brooklands.

Alas in F1, there is no catch up unless all teams have the same or similar budgets, which isn't going to happen. Gone are the days in F1 where a garagiste team could compete on an equal footing to the works cars - the march of technology has seen to that.

And success ballast doesn't so much slow the cars down as change the handling characteristics. Back to touring cars as a case in point, most teams at the pointy end of proceedings will actually develop their car in such a way that optimum performance is actually achieved with a certain percentage of ballast. That's because other than the opening race of the season where no cars have any ballast on board, the leading cars in the championship will be, barring the odd exception, running heavy for pretty well much the rest of the season. And a good driver in a heavy car will still outperform a lesser driver in a light car.


----------



## dave r (16 Aug 2020)

In Moto GP Dovizioso has announced that he and Ducati are are parting company after eight good years together. 

https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/942185/1/dovizioso-wont-renew-ducati-2021

and has celebrated with a good result in the Austrian race.

Warning the link contains todays race result

https://www.crash.net/motogp/results/942471/1/austrian-motogp-race-results


----------



## classic33 (6 Sep 2020)

Last race for Williams, with the Williams as owners. They step back, from F1 after today.


----------



## Reynard (6 Sep 2020)

Well, the race...

It's been scripted by John Cleese and the Goodies...


----------



## StuAff (6 Sep 2020)

Good lord. An interesting F1 race…might actually watch the highlights, because there are some! Can't remember when I last paid any attention to it, having found the Hamilton dominance so boring and predictable…


----------



## Beebo (6 Sep 2020)

Has anyone ever gone from first to last, 20 seconds behind everyone.

That must be the most severe stop go penalty ever.


----------



## classic33 (6 Sep 2020)

He wasn't the only driver to be given that penalty.


----------



## Reynard (6 Sep 2020)

The penalty itself (10 second stop & go) is the standard one for entering the pit lane when it is closed. That was pretty cut and shut.

But it's just how the hatchet falls really. Other than a time penalty, any others have to be served within three laps, and the fact that it was on a restart just added to the pain.

Maybe it's time to put lights at the entry to the pit lane as well as the exit?

On the flip side, it didn't affect the overall drivers' championship standings too much as Max didn't finish and Valtteri was only 5th, two places ahead of Lewis. So that's pretty well much as you were.


----------



## figbat (6 Sep 2020)

Lights on the pit lane entry means you’ll possibly have cars parked and queuing in an unconstrained area - ie in a place with no speed limit. The issue today was that the race engineer told him to come in and he did that. Bonno should be taking a good slice of the blame for this, and yes, Lewis should have seen the red X boards. The other teams managed to deal with it (GIO notwithstanding).


----------



## Beebo (16 Nov 2020)

Strange that no one has commented on Lewis Hamilton’s 7th World Championship.
He won it in style. 
The track was almost undriveable but Hamilton took his time, got a feel for the car and was able to drive on tyres that were worn down to slicks when his car was clearly not the fastest on track. 

The only problem I can see is that the dominance of Merc and Hamilton is turning off the fans because it’s just too boring.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (16 Nov 2020)

This was the first race for ages that I can recall watching the highlights, but even then it didn't hold my attention, I'm afraid.


----------



## Archie_tect (16 Nov 2020)

In a lighter vein... does anyone follow Bad Obsession Motorsport on You Tube? They've recently run a series where they bought a second hand Citroen C1 and adapted it with a Citygo race pack to enter the mini races for C1/1008/Aygo cars in the 2020 series.

What a breath of fresh air to see enthusiasts with mechanical skill getting together to have fun away from the stupid money of F1.

... and as for Project Binky and the Lescargot conversion... lots to see if you haven't seen any of it! Have fun.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHvBHWBzzB7NyU5tIiEZHBg


----------



## BrumJim (16 Nov 2020)

Beebo said:


> Strange that no one has commented on Lewis Hamilton’s 7th World Championship.
> He won it in style.
> The track was almost undriveable but Hamilton took his time, got a feel for the car and was able to drive on tyres that were worn down to slicks when his car was clearly not the fastest on track.
> 
> The only problem I can see is that the dominance of Merc and Hamilton is turning off the fans because it’s just too boring.



Sadly I don't follow F1 as much as I used to, mainly due to having a small child in the family. Used to rush home from Church (along with some other F1 fans that used to be part of the congregation) just in time to see the start, and then have a lazy Sunday afternoon watching the race unfold. Now I have to do something a little more engaging with my son.

Lewis Hamilton's achievements are phenominal. I have seen numerous champions come and go over the years that I have followed F1, starting probably with Keke Rosberg's Championship year. I have noted that there is a strange propensity amongst British champions to gain one World Champion crown, and then retire or go elsewhere, much more than those of the other big motorsport countries (e.g. Brazil and Finland). Lewis is cut from different stuff. To keep going that long, and to hold off the young guns desparate to take his crown takes more than a bit of driving skill. As he has grown older he has matured as a person, a driver and a team leader, and hasn't lost any of his racing craft and ability to make a car go faster than anyone else.

Difficult to compare between eras, but Fangio's record of 5 has to be seen against a backdrop of him starting racing much later in life, but also F1 being less competitive in those days. Senna sadly never lived long enough to win as many championships as he could have. Schumacher re-wrote the guide as to what is possible, but I'd put Hamilton above Schumacher in terms of "best driver", and certainly showed a lot more grace and fairness than Michael managed, and was a lot more willing to have a competitive #2 in the team. And will hopefully win more championships as well as races.


----------



## figbat (16 Nov 2020)

I’m not Lewis fan-boi but admire and respect his ability. Let’s not forget that he has done what he has done up against genuinely talented opponents, including his own team-mates in the same machinery. Alonso, Button, Vettel, Raikonnen, Rosberg are all world champions that he has raced against and beaten. Leclerc and Verstappen are tasty drivers he has also held off, not to mention Bottas and Ricciardo. No matter his persona, he can drive an F1 car.


----------



## matticus (16 Nov 2020)

I enjoyed the highlights; the first one I've sat through this year. Even Lewis slithered off the track once-or-twice! (how warm was it? I'd expected a track in Turkey to dry out quicker, even in mid-Nov). Poor old Stroll - still, at least he had his day in the limelight.
Hamilton certainly had one of the 3 fastest cars there (judged over 68 laps), but critically the opposition all made bigger errors than he did. IMO! So a well-earned win.

GOAT?? Well ... you can't compare him to the big names pre-Senna, as the F1 world was just too different. But he's got a strong claim to be better than Senna and Schuey. (Certainly marginally less arrogant than both). That's a bit harsh on Senna of course, as his career was tragically cut short. So the debate will always rumble on 
I don't really "like" Hamilton - I prefer personalities like Hill or Hakkinnen, or that nice Lineker chap - but you can't say he was happy to smash his rivals off the track to win.

I think if the "recent Mercedes Era" had been less dull, then Hamilton would have earned more status in the history of the sport. I'd have liked to see a few years of him scrapping properly with Vettel, Raikonnen, Rosberg and Alonso in closer matched cars. Oh well!


----------



## Illaveago (16 Nov 2020)

I thought yesterday's race was good . What was thought to be a foregone conclusion ended up with a lot of wheel spin on the grid as other cars shot past. All of the driver's found the conditions to be bad but some managed to find a way of staying on the track long enough to finish on the podium .
I liked the way in which Sebastian Vettel was the first driver to go over and congratulate Lewis .
I think Lewis is fun. He makes sure that he waves to his fans at the races.
He was denied his first World Championship as it seemed that the establishment couldn't allow a rookie to win it .
He has had to compete against very good drivers in the same machinery and still won. People also thought that he was mad leaving McLaren to go to Mercedes at the time.


----------



## Beebo (16 Nov 2020)

From 1997 - 23 years ago. He seems like such a nice kid. His dad wasn’t a rich man but managed to survive and flourish in the sport. Very similar to the Williams sisters in tennis and Woods in golf. All are champions in middle class white sports. 

View: https://youtu.be/DDjRdi5zv-w


----------



## matticus (16 Nov 2020)

If we're going to give credit for doing well in "Middle class white sports" I think Hamilton Sr should be getting the medals. He made the sacrifices to give Lewis the leg-up he needed. (The McLaren team also played a small - if self-interested! - part).

As I've tried to say, there are much more arrogant and unlikeable top sports people out there!


----------



## Reynard (16 Nov 2020)

Mmmmm, I was well, sort of engaged elsewhere yesterday.... Namely the BTCC finale at Brands... That went down to the last race, with three drivers still in contention.

Ash Sutton took his second title - well-deserved despite the fact I'm most definitely NOT a fan. Plus is was the first overall win for the TOCA engine rather than one from a manufacturer.


----------



## Reynard (16 Nov 2020)

matticus said:


> I enjoyed the highlights; the first one I've sat through this year. Even Lewis slithered off the track once-or-twice! (how warm was it? I'd expected a track in Turkey to dry out quicker, even in mid-Nov). Poor old Stroll - still, at least he had his day in the limelight.
> Hamilton certainly had one of the 3 fastest cars there (judged over 68 laps), but critically the opposition all made bigger errors than he did. IMO! So a well-earned win.
> 
> GOAT?? Well ... you can't compare him to the big names pre-Senna, as the F1 world was just too different. But he's got a strong claim to be better than Senna and Schuey. (Certainly marginally less arrogant than both). That's a bit harsh on Senna of course, as his career was tragically cut short. So the debate will always rumble on
> ...



Well, it's blazingly obvious that F1 teams no longer test at Silverstone in January like they used to


----------



## Archie_tect (16 Nov 2020)

Reynard said:


> Mmmmm, I was well, sort of engaged elsewhere yesterday.... Namely the BTCC finale at Brands... That went down to the last race, with three drivers still in contention.
> 
> Ash Sutton took his second title - well-deserved despite the fact I'm most definitely NOT a fan. Plus is was the first overall win for the TOCA engine rather than one from a manufacturer.


Ah TOCA Touring Cars [1 and 2] on the PlayStation... in the days when I could still win against my son!


----------



## Reynard (16 Nov 2020)

Archie_tect said:


> Ah TOCA Touring Cars [1 and 2] on the PlayStation... in the days when I could still win against my son!



I've still got the PC version somewhere...

Always used to race the #88 Vauxhall Vectra


----------



## Archie_tect (16 Nov 2020)

Reynard said:


> I've still got the PC version somewhere...
> 
> Always used to race the #88 Vauxhall Vectra


I liked the Volvos! ...except round Thruxton!


----------



## Reynard (16 Nov 2020)

Archie_tect said:


> I liked the Volvos! ...except round Thruxton!



Oooo... A Rickard Rydell fan then?


----------



## figbat (16 Nov 2020)

Archie_tect said:


> I liked the Volvos! ...except round Thruxton!


Tim Harvey used to live just along the road from me when he was at Volvo - often saw him driving past in a road-going one.


----------



## Reynard (16 Nov 2020)

figbat said:


> Tim Harvey used to live just along the road from me when he was at Volvo - often saw him driving past in a road-going one.



I got to know Tim a bit back in the day when he was doing British GTs in a Dodge Viper in the early 2000s - a very funny and likeable man off the track, but a hard-as-nails racer on it.


----------



## glasgowcyclist (16 Nov 2020)

Reynard said:


> Handicapping works well in other sports (horse racing and golf to name but two) as well as motor racing. There's a history of handicap races in motorsport stretching back to the sport's early days at Brooklands.
> 
> Alas in F1, there is no catch up unless all teams have the same or similar budgets, which isn't going to happen. Gone are the days in F1 where a garagiste team could compete on an equal footing to the works cars - the march of technology has seen to that.
> 
> And success ballast doesn't so much slow the cars down as change the handling characteristics. Back to touring cars as a case in point, most teams at the pointy end of proceedings will actually develop their car in such a way that optimum performance is actually achieved with a certain percentage of ballast. That's because other than the opening race of the season where no cars have any ballast on board, the leading cars in the championship will be, barring the odd exception, running heavy for pretty well much the rest of the season. And a good driver in a heavy car will still outperform a lesser driver in a light car.



How about introducing a draft system like they have in the NFL?

The worst performing team gets first pick of the drivers for the next season and the best team gets last pick.


----------



## Smokin Joe (16 Nov 2020)

glasgowcyclist said:


> How about introducing a draft system like they have in the NFL?
> 
> The worst performing team gets first pick of the drivers for the next season and the best team gets last pick.


How about the worst performing team gets a kick up the arse and told to do better. F1 is there to find the best, not reward the weakest.


----------



## Beebo (17 Nov 2020)

glasgowcyclist said:


> How about introducing a draft system like they have in the NFL?
> 
> The worst performing team gets first pick of the drivers for the next season and the best team gets last pick.


It about money in F1. Some drivers pay to drive and bring huge sponsorship. Others get their dad to buy the team.

The best drivers aren’t always in F1 if they can’t bring in the bucks.


----------



## glasgowcyclist (17 Nov 2020)

Beebo said:


> It about money in F1. Some drivers pay to drive and bring huge sponsorship. Others get their dad to buy the team.
> 
> The best drivers aren’t always in F1 if they can’t bring in the bucks.



There’s huge money in NFL; Patrick Maholmes (QB for the Chiefs) has just been given a contract worth almost half a billion dollars, the biggest in NFL history.

But it was only a half-serious suggestion, something to mix up the field and provide a bit of entertainment instead of the normal procession after the first lap.


----------



## Reynard (17 Nov 2020)

glasgowcyclist said:


> But it was only a half-serious suggestion, something to mix up the field and provide a bit of entertainment instead of the normal procession after the first lap.



Then you're watching the wrong kind of motorsport!


----------



## Beebo (17 Nov 2020)

glasgowcyclist said:


> There’s huge money in NFL; Patrick Maholmes (QB for the Chiefs) has just been given a contract worth almost half a billion dollars, the biggest in NFL history.
> 
> But it was only a half-serious suggestion, something to mix up the field and provide a bit of entertainment instead of the normal procession after the first lap.


But NFL teams have 50 players in the squad. So they can hide a few rubbish ones. 
I like the draft system, it keeps the leagues competitive, it just wouldn’t work in F1.


----------



## Beebo (29 Nov 2020)

Romain Grosjean has somehow survived a crash which looked unsurvivable.
The car split in half and instantly burst into flames. 
The safety technology on these cars is amazing but he’s a lucky boy.


----------



## DCLane (29 Nov 2020)

It looks like the 'halo' device saved him.


----------



## Reynard (29 Nov 2020)

The safety cell and halo worked exactly like they were meant to.

But...

a) The Armco isn't meant to do that... This isn't the 1970s...

b) The fuel cell area is supposed to be armoured and puncture proof. It obviously wasn't.

Still, Grosjean is a very lucky boy. Just a couple of years ago, that would've been a fatal. Echoes of Cevert and Berger for sure.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (29 Nov 2020)

Berger is very much alive. Do you mean Senna or Ratzenberger perhaps?


----------



## fossyant (29 Nov 2020)

That was a bit nasty wasn't it.


----------



## Reynard (29 Nov 2020)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Berger is very much alive. Do you mean Senna or Ratzenberger perhaps?



No, I meant Berger - the fuel cell split in that particular accident too.

He went straight into the wall at the Tamburello, the car broke in two, and the fuel cell ruptured because it actually protruded into the sidepods because otherwise the wheelbase of the car would've been too long if the whole cell had been behind the driver, especially taking the V12 engine into account.

Fuel cell failure seems to be a factor in the Grosjean incident. Gary Anderson speaks sense.


----------



## Beebo (29 Nov 2020)

DCLane said:


> It looks like the 'halo' device saved him.


How many people thought the halo was an ugly addition to the cars. I think I was less than impressed when they first came out, but I hardly notice them now, the drivers don’t seem to worry about reduced vision and they are saving lives.


----------



## Reynard (29 Nov 2020)

Beebo said:


> How many people thought the halo was an ugly addition to the cars. I think I was less than impressed when they first came out, but I hardly notice them now, the drivers don’t seem to worry about reduced vision and they are saving lives.



I still think they're ugly. As are the new style nose cones and the raised cockpit sides. I really do miss the clean lines and balance of late 80s / early 90s single seaters.

BUT...

Ugly and safe are a very different thing. I prefer safe over aesthetics any day.

I'm saying that from the perspective of someone who has been personally touched by a single seater fatality.


----------



## Edwardoka (29 Nov 2020)

Reynard said:


> Fuel cell failure seems to be a factor in the Grosjean incident. Gary Anderson speaks sense.


Grosjean is the main factor in Grosjean incidents. The man is a liability. Fast as hell, but he drives like he's playing a videogame. I've said for a while now that it's only a matter of time before he kills someone on the track.

Lucky, lucky man, to walk away from that. Better drivers have died from less destructive crashes.


----------



## figbat (29 Nov 2020)

Romain himself has admitted he was against them originally but it has now saved his life. He did incredibly well to get out of the car, but it was yet another Grosjean first lap crash caused by his lack of awareness/ability/attention. I hope he recovers fully but also hope he gets the message.


----------



## Reynard (29 Nov 2020)

Edwardoka said:


> Grosjean is the main factor in Grosjean incidents. The man is a liability. Fast as hell, but he drives like he's playing a videogame. I've said for a while now that it's only a matter of time before he kills someone on the track.
> 
> Lucky, lucky man, to walk away from that. Lesser drivers have died from less destructive crashes.



I won't deny Grosjean is a latter day De Cesaris... But in his defence, he was tipped into the off by Kvyat, who is also no saint in that department.

But putting the driver and his proneness to crashing aside, my gripe is that while the safety cell and halo performed exactly as intended, the fuel cell shouldn't have ruptured. It's supposed to be puncture proof (it has a woven steel covering IIRC) and is inside a structure that should be well-protected from lateral impacts.


----------



## figbat (29 Nov 2020)

We don’t know that the fuel cell ruptured. Some chatter in coverage about the fuel collector being the source of the fuel for the fire. I guess that’s what an investigation will reveal.

Kvyat was a spectator in that crash - nothing he could have done.


----------



## Beebo (29 Nov 2020)

Edwardoka said:


> Grosjean is the main factor in Grosjean incidents. The man is a liability. Fast as hell, but he drives like he's playing a videogame. I've said for a while now that it's only a matter of time before he kills someone on the track.
> 
> Lucky, lucky man, to walk away from that. Better drivers have died from less destructive crashes.


It’s possibly his last F1 race. Haas haven’t renewed his contact and there are only 2 races left.


----------



## Beebo (29 Nov 2020)

Reynard said:


> I still think they're ugly. As are the new style nose cones and the raised cockpit sides. I really do miss the clean lines and balance of late 80s / early 90s single seaters.
> 
> BUT...


My favourite clean lines car was the Benetton. The drivers head is so exposed. Compared to modern cars. You can hardly see the modern drivers inside their cockpit cocoon.


----------



## classic33 (29 Nov 2020)

In the slow motion shots before the crash, watch out for the piece flying towards the right front tyre.


----------



## Reynard (29 Nov 2020)

Beebo said:


> My favourite clean lines car was the Benetton. The drivers head is so exposed. Compared to modern cars. You can hardly see the modern drivers inside their cockpit cocoon.
> 
> View attachment 560923



Mine is the Arrows A11 from the same year i.e. 1989   











Photos courtesy of Sutton Images


----------



## figbat (29 Nov 2020)

classic33 said:


> In the slow motion shots before the crash, watch out for the piece flying towards the right front tyre.


Karun analysed this in some depth - it may be causative, a distraction perhaps, but at the moment nobody knows for sure.


----------



## Salad Dodger (30 Nov 2020)

Archie_tect said:


> In a lighter vein... does anyone follow Bad Obsession Motorsport on You Tube? They've recently run a series where they bought a second hand Citroen C1 and adapted it with a Citygo race pack to enter the mini races for C1/1008/Aygo cars in the 2020 series.
> 
> What a breath of fresh air to see enthusiasts with mechanical skill getting together to have fun away from the stupid money of F1.
> 
> ...



I really enjoyed the Citycar Racing video series, even more than their usual mechanical antics.


----------



## Beebo (30 Nov 2020)

The last time an F1 car split in two was in 1991. 
The last time one caught fire in a crash was in 1989. 
The last time a car pierced barriers in such a way was 1974.

So something went very wrong. Did the car break up before the barrier or because of the barrier?

Next week they are racing at Bahrain again. I would want every inch of the barrier system checked before racing again.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (30 Nov 2020)

It was being talked about as a head on crash, but it was at what, 45 degrees or so, and yet pierced it and seemingly the rear rotated and tore the rear away. As said, something was fundamentally awry here - similar crashes have happened without these consequences.


----------



## Phaeton (30 Nov 2020)

Beebo said:


> It’s possibly his last F1 race. Haas haven’t renewed his contact and there are only 2 races left.


Logic would be to ask him to stand down & bring in their new drivers 1 race each, just to get it under their belt.


figbat said:


> Karun analysed this in some depth - it may be causative, a distraction perhaps, but at the moment nobody knows for sure.


From my untrained eye I don't think so, I think he saw that the way forward was blocked &the returning Alpha Tauri was just going to make it worse, decided to go right & either didn't see Kvyat or presumed he would give him room, but he had no chance to.


Bonefish Blues said:


> It was being talked about as a head on crash, but it was at what, 45 degrees or so, and yet pierced it and seemingly the rear rotated and tore the rear away. As said, something was fundamentally awry here - similar crashes have happened without these consequences.


137Mph & 35G was recorded, how Grosjean's organs survived that is amazing, but as the the barrier was coming out into the track at that point I can see it being head on, although to rotational skid marks left appears to suggest it was rotating. The weight of the car is 740Kg with another 100Kg of fuel, not sure what else they could put up as an alternative, they replaced it with concrete blocks, but what would have happened if he had hit concrete at 137mph? I suspect there would have been leg damage.

All those involved in F1 safety aspect need a big pat on their backs, they saved his life yesterday, but they can't afford to sit on their laurels, I was very disappointed with the marshals, one came from the marshal post with the extinguisher already fired & wasted most of it, one ran across the track, not sure if it was the same one then just stood & didn't use his extinguisher until the medical car arrived.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (30 Nov 2020)

Phaeton said:


> 137Mph & 35G was recorded, how Grosjean's organs survived that is amazing, but as the the barrier was coming out into the track at that point I can see it being head on, although to rotational skid marks left appears to suggest it was rotating. The weight of the car is 740Kg with another 100Kg of fuel, not sure what else they could put up as an alternative, they replaced it with concrete blocks, but what would have happened if he had hit concrete at 137mph? I suspect there would have been leg damage.


A couple of things:

Humans have survived up to 83g in test.

re angle vs head on - I froze this at 6secs:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nc_x1RS_DXo


Penetration was the fundamental issue here IMHO - that car should have been deflected as was the design of the barrier and thereby dissipated its energy by spinning down the track. It he had hit concrete at 45 degrees, then better minds than mine would be able to work that one through, but one doubts that his life would have been in the balance in the way that everyone initially thought we had a fatality on our hands yesterday.


----------



## Phaeton (30 Nov 2020)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Humans have survived up to 83g in test.


Wasn't aware it was anywhere near as high as that


Bonefish Blues said:


> re angle vs head on - I froze this at 6secs


It's very difficult to determine, at 3 seconds he is perpendicular to the barrier, which appears to be just before impact












Bonefish Blues said:


> everyone initially thought we had a fatality on our hands yesterday.


Yes, Sky had left that camera angle & were at the end of the straight, you saw the fireball in the distance, I didn't expect whomever it was to walk away from it.

They will have higher definition footage than us, they will be able to go frame by frame, but I also feel there was more than a couple of litres of fuel going up there


----------



## Bonefish Blues (30 Nov 2020)

I don't know how much fuel was involved tbh - I do know a fuel burn is deeply impressive, having seen a relatively few mills go up a couple of times (US woman starting a BBQ with it was particularly worrying for the Brits gathered around it, and we'll not discuss the time I personally did something deeply foolish  ) - there's part of me wonders that if the whole of the c100kgs of fuel load had gone up, anything could have been done?

My point re the angle of impact is that at 130-140 mph, wheels locked, a car cannot change direction, it can only rotate around its own axis. It should have speared off that barrier such that we were only briefly mentioning Grosjean having another avoidable accident this morning.

_Edited to correct fuel load error_


----------



## dave r (30 Nov 2020)

Bonefish Blues said:


> I don't know how much fuel was involved tbh - I do know a fuel burn is deeply impressive, having seen a relatively few mills go up a couple of times (US woman starting a BBQ with it was particularly worrying for the Brits gathered around it, and we'll not discuss the time I personally did something deeply foolish  ) - there's part of me wonders that if the whole of the 160kgs of fuel load had gone up, anything could have been done?
> 
> My point re the angle of impact is that at 130-140 mph, wheels locked, a car cannot change direction, it can only rotate around its own axis. It should have speared off that barrier such that we were only briefly mentioning Grosjean having another avoidable accident this morning.



I did wonder if it was just what was in the fuel lines that went up


----------



## matticus (30 Nov 2020)

I think if you smash enough 800kg objects into enough miles of steel armco, at enough different angles and speeds (in the 100-150mph range), eventually there will be a bad outcome; it's probably not practicable to test every _car design vs armco section vs velocity vector_.

So of course they will look into it and hopefully find a root cause, with a preventive action that can be rolled-out to other armco (or alternatives/replacements). But it is fundamentally a dangerous thing that these drivers do


----------



## matticus (30 Nov 2020)

Leclerc's uncencsored response to the incident:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDUnJSTFjlY


----------



## glasgowcyclist (30 Nov 2020)

Phaeton said:


> 137Mph & 35G was recorded



The BBC report it as 53G at impact.  (Maybe you've transposed the digits...)


----------



## Bonefish Blues (30 Nov 2020)

matticus said:


> I think if you smash enough 800kg objects into enough miles of steel armco, at enough different angles and speeds (in the 100-150mph range), eventually there will be a bad outcome; *it's probably not practicable to test every car design vs armco section vs velocity vector.*
> 
> So of course they will look into it and hopefully find a root cause, with a preventive action that can be rolled-out to other armco (or alternatives/replacements). But it is fundamentally a dangerous thing that these drivers do


Apropos testing variants, the Regulations are such that if you test one, you test all (in F1, that is) because of the standardisation effect that comes with those specs.


----------



## Phaeton (30 Nov 2020)

glasgowcyclist said:


> The BBC report it as 53G at impact.  (Maybe you've transposed the digits...)


Quite possible dislisyia rulz ko


----------



## classic33 (30 Nov 2020)

Bonefish Blues said:


> I don't know how much fuel was involved tbh - I do know a fuel burn is deeply impressive, having seen a relatively few mills go up a couple of times (US woman starting a BBQ with it was particularly worrying for the Brits gathered around it, and we'll not discuss the time I personally did something deeply foolish  ) - there's part of me wonders that if *the whole of the 160kgs of fuel load *had gone up, anything could have been done?
> 
> My point re the angle of impact is that at 130-140 mph, wheels locked, a car cannot change direction, it can only rotate around its own axis. It should have speared off that barrier such that we were only briefly mentioning Grosjean having another avoidable accident this morning.


Fuel limit is 110kg.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (30 Nov 2020)

classic33 said:


> Fuel limit is 110kg.


You're quite right - not sure where I dredged that up from


----------



## Edwardoka (30 Nov 2020)

Phaeton said:


> From my untrained eye I don't think so, I think he saw that the way forward was blocked &the returning Alpha Tauri was just going to make it worse, decided to go right & either didn't see Kvyat or presumed he would give him room, but he had no chance to.


The pack was already jittery, lots of nudges, 3 cars wide into the corners. Stroll's car was shedding bits, and several cars ran wide.
Given those circumstances, someone as experienced as Grosjean and as far back as he was should know to ease off to let things settle.



Phaeton said:


> 137Mph & 35G was recorded, how Grosjean's organs survived that is amazing, but as the the barrier was coming out into the track at that point I can see it being head on, although to rotational skid marks left appears to suggest it was rotating. The weight of the car is 740Kg with another 100Kg of fuel, not sure what else they could put up as an alternative, they replaced it with concrete blocks, but what would have happened if he had hit concrete at 137mph? I suspect there would have been leg damage.


The body is capable of dealing with instantaneous G-forces up to about 150-160. A decent boxer delivers 50+ Gs of force (although they're not decent for long if they take too many of those in return)
It requires much higher instantaneous G-forces to turn your innards to goo. Sustained G-forces are much more situational - e.g. airforce pilots can handle up to 9G towards the legs with training and G-suits, but no-one can handle much more than 2-3G towards the head before redout.

Your thoughts on the crash angle are correct. The angle would have been much sharper than 45 degrees.

As you say, the armco approaches the track there because of the access point.
(I did not add the marker)








Phaeton said:


> I was very disappointed with the marshals, one came from the marshal post with the extinguisher already fired & wasted most of it, one ran across the track, not sure if it was the same one then just stood & didn't use his extinguisher until the medical car arrived.


If you look closely the marshal in question is spraying at a point where the ground is already wet, my guess is that there's a protocol about this - some fuels burn clear and even if it wasn't burning, it would have been a further risk of conflagration.

I will agree that his extinguisher did seem to be mostly ineffectual, though. I'm not convinced that any handheld extinguisher is going to do anything to a fire that size. I think the reason for them is to prevent a fuel fire, not to put one out.


----------



## Reynard (30 Nov 2020)

Phaeton said:


> The weight of the car is 740Kg with another 100Kg of fuel, not sure what else they could put up as an alternative, they replaced it with concrete blocks, but what would have happened if he had hit concrete at 137mph? I suspect there would have been leg damage.



No - the shape and lay-up of the nose cone has been developed specifically to prevent leg damage. It will concertina and then shatter to dissipate the energy away from the driver. I've been involved with the impact testing on the survival cell and front of the car. Although it was only as recently as 1988 / 89 that the drivers' feet were moved behind the line of the front suspension. Prior to that, leg injuries ended the careers of drivers like Didier Pironi and Jacques Lafitte amongst others.


----------



## Reynard (30 Nov 2020)

Also, I've been thinking how the hell the car went *through* the barrier, and I think I may have a plausible explanation.

The impact itself, given the forces involved, would have generated a fair amount of heat, as energy conversion isn't perfect. Then throw in the additional heat generated by the fuel fire, and it would have made the steel of the Armco malleable for just long enough to allow the survival cell and halo to pass through the metal rather than bounce off it.


----------



## matticus (30 Nov 2020)

Reynard said:


> No - the shape and lay-up of the nose cone has been developed specifically to prevent leg damage. It will concertina and then shatter to dissipate the energy away from the driver. I've been involved with the impact testing on the survival cell and front of the car. Although it was only as recently as 1988 / 89 that the drivers' feet were moved behind the line of the front suspension. Prior to that, leg injuries ended the careers of drivers like Didier Pironi and Jacques Lafitte amongst others.


That's kinda interesting ... one thing I thought straight away is that the cars (including the criticial Halo thingy) aren't tested in this specific scenario i.e. 137mph offset impact that squeezes between 2 beams of the armco. But I guess they are tested for impact with a rigid flat surface i.e. concrete wall? So could concrete have actually been a kinder material for Grosjean to hit, due to the car's crash design?


----------



## Reynard (30 Nov 2020)

matticus said:


> That's kinda interesting ... one thing I thought straight away is that the cars (including the criticial Halo thingy) aren't tested in this specific scenario i.e. 137mph offset impact that squeezes between 2 beams of the armco. But I guess they are tested for impact with a rigid flat surface i.e. concrete wall? So could concrete have actually been a kinder material for Grosjean to hit, due to the car's crash design?



No, but you can guarantee that the technical team will be already looking at how to take this into account for the upcoming regulation changes and see if anything needs amending.

Some of the tests are done dynamically - namely shoving bits of car or complete survival cell into a wall at speed or firing projectiles at them. Others are done statically, which involves putting components in a machine that gradually increases the loading until they fail catastrophically.

Yes, likely if that had been concrete, he'd have bounced off it. Although you then could possibly end up in a similar scenario that led to Antoine Hubert's death at Spa last year, if he rebounded back into the path of another car.


----------



## matticus (30 Nov 2020)

Yeah, ideally you don't want cars bouncing around the venue in random directions; thus tyre-walls and structures that are less rigid/brittle.

Looking at Romain's bandaged hands; i have a feeling that burns take a looong time to heal properly, so although he's not badly hurt he may be out of the cockpit for several weeks.


----------



## Edwardoka (30 Nov 2020)

Reynard said:


> Also, I've been thinking how the hell the car went *through* the barrier, and I think I may have a plausible explanation.
> 
> The impact itself, given the forces involved, would have generated a fair amount of heat, as energy conversion isn't perfect. Then throw in the additional heat generated by the fuel fire, and it would have made the steel of the Armco malleable for just long enough to allow the survival cell and halo to pass through the metal rather than bounce off it.


I'm no metallurgist but this doesn't ring true at all to me.

It takes a lot more heat to change the molecular properties of steel than can be explained in the microseconds that the impact lasted for. 
If the impact generated that much heat in an instant there'd have been nothing left.

Bear in mind that double height armcos are literally two armcos on top of each other, with a gap between, rather than a single piece of metal.
My guess is that the collision punched a hole in this gap and the survival cell acted like a wedge, forcing them apart.


----------



## Illaveago (30 Nov 2020)

Grosjean was lucky that the Armco barrier spread enough to enable him to escape through . If it hadn't had spread that amount he could have been trapped inside with no means of escape .
From what I could see on the highlights it looks like the car ended up on its side .


----------



## Bonefish Blues (30 Nov 2020)

Edwardoka said:


> The pack was already jittery, lots of nudges, 3 cars wide into the corners. Stroll's car was shedding bits, and several cars ran wide.
> Given those circumstances, someone as experienced as Grosjean and as far back as he was should know to ease off to let things settle.
> 
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, but it's 45 degrees at most. Grosjean left the main track at an angle of only 10-15 degrees from it. That barrier is itself at quite a shallow angle.

View the footage here (first post, of the Sky footage from above), freezing after 6 seconds, and note the tyre marks:

https://www.sportbible.com/f1/f1-ne...eans-miraculous-escape-from-f1-crash-20201129


----------



## matticus (30 Nov 2020)

Reynard said:


> Antoine Hubert's death at Spa last year


jeez - just watched that. Horrific - easy to forget how badly things can go wrong with such a high-speed corner, we're so used to the amzign way drivers get through there like they're on rails, lap after lap, year after year.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (30 Nov 2020)

Edwardoka said:


> I'm no metallurgist but this doesn't ring true at all to me.
> 
> It takes a lot more heat to change the molecular properties of steel than can be explained in the microseconds that the impact lasted for.
> If the impact generated that much heat in an instant there'd have been nothing left.
> ...


This seems most likely, I agree.


----------



## matticus (30 Nov 2020)

Love this comment from the Autosport forum:

_tbh i'm still waiting for the FIA to fine Grosjean for not replacing the steering wheel after he got out _


----------



## Edwardoka (30 Nov 2020)

Bonefish Blues said:


> I'm sorry, but it's 45 degrees at most. Grosjean left the main track at an angle of only 10-15 degrees from it. That barrier is itself at quite a shallow angle.
> 
> View the footage here (first post, of the Sky footage from above), freezing after 6 seconds, and note the tyre marks:
> 
> https://www.sportbible.com/f1/f1-ne...eans-miraculous-escape-from-f1-crash-20201129


I'm not keen on getting into a forensic debate about a car crash, but I rewatched the clip several times for the purposes of this reply and honestly I feel quite grossed out by the whole thing now.

It's true that he was still carrying a lot of lateral velocity when he hit the armco, but his trajectory was definitely yawing to the right just before the point of impact.

Also necessary to point out that the camera angles will mess with perspective and perception of angles, an effect not helped by the camera rotating while being on a moving helicopter.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (30 Nov 2020)

I am going by tyre marks, their measurable (were one minded) relationship with the tarmac of the track, and the angle of the barrier from your overhead shot. It is what it is. I think some observers have been mislead by the shot we first saw looking back down the track where it looks for all the world as if he has run straight into an Armco wall because of the foreshortening effect of the lens (let's call it 'Bournemouth Beach Effect' of (non) social distancing so loved by the tabloids earlier this year!)

Once the safety cell had penetrated the barrier, likely as you said due to it acting as a super-strong wedge, the rear of the car simply tore itself off and came to rest on the track side of the barrier.


----------



## figbat (30 Nov 2020)

But the reason the rear end came away is because of a lateral force as the wedge went into the barrier at a yaw angle to the right, generating a significant turning moment as the front end stopped suddenly and the rear pivoted to the left.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (30 Nov 2020)

I don't know exactly how it happened. In my layman's terms the front of the wedge went through the barrier, stopped as the main monocoque was unable to penetrate in the way the cell had been, and in essence carried on, possibly 'aided' by the scissoring action of the upper and lower elements of the Armco itself shearing the two elements.

I'm assuming that the FIA will publish its report in due course which will provide a forensic account (not perhaps helped by the need to immediately rebuild for the restart)


----------



## Reynard (30 Nov 2020)

Edwardoka said:


> I'm no metallurgist but this doesn't ring true at all to me.
> 
> It takes a lot more heat to change the molecular properties of steel than can be explained in the microseconds that the impact lasted for.
> If the impact generated that much heat in an instant there'd have been nothing left.
> ...



If you've done any projectile-based impact testing, you really do not want to be touching the hole that's been made. DAMHIKT... 

Seriously, the forces and heat generated at those speeds are pretty significant. Besides, the shape of the Armco gives it a fair bit of rigidity (it's the same principle as the corrugation on a baked bean can) and it takes a lot of welly to bend it out of shape.


----------



## Edwardoka (1 Dec 2020)

Reynard said:


> If you've done any projectile-based impact testing, you really do not want to be touching the hole that's been made. DAMHIKT...
> 
> Seriously, the forces and heat generated at those speeds are pretty significant. Besides, the shape of the Armco gives it a fair bit of rigidity (it's the same principle as the corrugation on a baked bean can) and it takes a lot of welly to bend it out of shape.


I've never done any safety testing (indeed, soldering is about my limit when it comes to hot work) so I'll defer to your experience about not touching glowing metal 

Isn't the point of Armco barriers that they're only rigid for minor, glancing collisions, and that in big collisions the beams are designed to resist failure in the direction of impact while flexing along their length in order to dissipate the kinetic energy? A barrier that is rigid under all circumstances would be lethal.

Judging by photos of the wreck and the shot of the back of the barrier, it looks like the stacked beams were bolted together with either C-channels or I-beams, with enough vertical spacing between each section for light to shine through - easily enough for a wedge to be riven. At least one of these vertical beams was sheared clean through.

Major questions definitely need to be asked as a result of this. But my research is starting to enter "jet fuel can't melt steel beams" territory, so am going to bow out.


----------



## glasgowcyclist (1 Dec 2020)

Lewis Hamilton will miss at least the next, and possibly the final, GP of the season after testing positive for Covid.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/55142428

I’m not entirely surprised, given the lip service often paid to maintain distance and hygiene precautions within the sport. 

Still, it will be a shame that he didn’t hit 100 pole positions before the next season.


----------



## matticus (1 Dec 2020)

We're all focusing on driver safety here - but don't forget the barriers also serve to protect all the people/things _outside _of the track*. So when we say that so-and-so is _designed _to do x and Y, in reality all the designs are compromises - and that includes cost and ease-of-installation.

*armco is used on public roads; I would say it either stops cars falling down ravines, or it stops cars on dual-carriageways crossing into oncoming traffic. Any energy absorption properties may be only secondary.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (1 Dec 2020)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Lewis Hamilton will miss at least the next, and possibly the final, GP of the season after testing positive for Covid.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/55142428
> 
> ...


Hulk's been busy this year, I expect he'll get a drive in one seat or another this coming weekend!


----------



## Phaeton (1 Dec 2020)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Hulk's been busy this year, I expect he'll get a drive in one seat or another this coming weekend!


They have Stoffel Vandoorne, so Hulk won't be needed, in a perfect world Vandoorne would drop in at Williams & Russell would be allowed to put on his big boy pants & show what he is capable of, currently he is better than the car, but would that translate in a Mercedes. Afterall that's where he will be in 2022 when both Hamilton & Wolff have left the team.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (1 Dec 2020)

Phaeton said:


> They have Stoffel Vandoorne, so Hulk won't be needed, in a perfect world Vandoorne would drop in at Williams & Russell would be allowed to put on his big boy pants & show what he is capable of, currently he is better than the car, but would that translate in a Mercedes. Afterall that's where he will be in 2022 when both Hamilton & Wolff have left the team.


Haas is the more likely, I agree, but the more seats the better.


----------



## matticus (1 Dec 2020)

Bonefish Blues said:


> I am going by tyre marks, their measurable (were one minded) relationship with the tarmac of the track, and the angle of the barrier from your overhead shot. It is what it is. I think some observers have been mislead by the shot we first saw looking back down the track where it looks for all the world as if he has run straight into an Armco wall because of the foreshortening effect of the lens (let's call it 'Bournemouth Beach Effect' of (non) social distancing so loved by the tabloids earlier this year!)


IMO it was indeed a much more "glancing" angle than some are saying, this is a freeze-frame (an overhead shot would be better, there may be distortion/foreshortening here):


----------



## Phaeton (1 Dec 2020)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Haas is the more likely, I agree, but the more seats the better.


No they have already announced they are using their reserve driver, Pietro Fittipaldi


----------



## Phaeton (1 Dec 2020)

Spoken in slight jest, hope it works out for him https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/55152354 I'd also like to see Russell & Perez at Williams next year, with Latifi the one not getting a drive,


----------



## Bonefish Blues (2 Dec 2020)

Phaeton said:


> They have Stoffel Vandoorne, so Hulk won't be needed, in a perfect world Vandoorne would drop in at Williams & *Russell would be allowed to put on his big boy pants & show what he is capable of,* currently he is better than the car, but would that translate in a Mercedes. Afterall that's where he will be in 2022 when both Hamilton & Wolff have left the team.


And lo it came to pass


----------



## Phaeton (2 Dec 2020)

Bonefish Blues said:


> And lo it came to pass


YES!!!!
I wonder if my other prediction will also come true

Edit:- I do hope he at least gets some points to get him off the duck.


----------



## Beebo (2 Dec 2020)

It will be very interesting if Russell can get close to Bottas. 
He’s never scored a point in F1 so this is his big chance. 
A podium place would be amazing but very unlikely.


----------



## Phaeton (2 Dec 2020)

Beebo said:


> It will be very interesting if Russell can get close to Bottas.
> He’s never scored a point in F1 so this is his big chance.
> A podium place would be amazing but very unlikely.


Ted Kravitz reckons he can qualify 4th & finish at least 4th, I think that's a big ask, but I hope he's right, 

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/1...aces-lewis-hamilton-at-mercedes-for-sakhir-gp


> What to expect from Russell on Merc debut?
> Analysis from Sky Sports F1's Ted Kravitz, in Bahrain
> 
> "It's going to be very difficult for George but he's an expert on a Saturday, so I would reckon top four in qualifying would be a very good result for him - he should be near enough the Red Bulls. Again, in the race, top four would be very good, a podium would perhaps be expected in the car he's driving.


----------



## figbat (2 Dec 2020)

Hamilton still out of contract... George puts in a stunning drive to win at a canter... has a far lower salary demand...


----------



## Phaeton (2 Dec 2020)

figbat said:


> Hamilton still out of contract... George puts in a stunning drive to win at a canter... has a far lower salary demand...


No he has one more championship to win next year, then he'll walk away.


----------



## Edwardoka (2 Dec 2020)

They should have given Hamilton's covid-vacated seat to Häkkinen. Can anyone see a reason why not? The season is completely bananas as it is.


----------



## Phaeton (4 Dec 2020)

C'mon George you show them what you are capable of, you'll have Christian Horner knocking on your door at midnight at this rate.


----------



## dave r (4 Dec 2020)

Superb effort, Russell topping the time sheets.

https://www.crash.net/f1/results/949692/1/f1-2020-sakhir-grand-prix-free-practice-results-1


----------



## Beebo (4 Dec 2020)

He’s 6 foot 1 with size 11 feet. The car was designed around two much smaller drivers so he is wearing size 10 shoes because his size 11 feet don’t fit in the car.


----------



## Phaeton (4 Dec 2020)

He'll be gutted if he doesn't come away with points this Sunday, be a fairy tale if he wins


----------



## Reynard (4 Dec 2020)

Beebo said:


> He’s 6 foot 1 with size 11 feet. The car was designed around two much smaller drivers so he is wearing size 10 shoes because his size 11 feet don’t fit in the car.



Cue the 1989 Arrows A11. I remember one race where Eddie Cheever collapsed on getting out of the car because the cockpit was such a tight fit that it restricted the circulation to his legs. And Eddie was even taller than George.

Poor feet, is all I say... 

Nice to see him wiping the floor with Bottas. So far.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (4 Dec 2020)

Reynard said:


> Cue the 1989 Arrows A11. I remember one race where Eddie Cheever collapsed on getting out of the car because the cockpit was such a tight fit that it restricted the circulation to his legs. And Eddie was even taller than George.
> 
> Poor feet, is all I say...
> 
> Nice to see him wiping the floor with Bottas. So far.


He sees Hamilton's car and instinctively follows it


----------



## figbat (4 Dec 2020)

I did wonder how George would fit the car - seems to be ok with it so far. Puts me in mind of one N Mansell Esq. and the McLaren MP4/10 Extra Wide special they had to build.


----------



## Phaeton (4 Dec 2020)

2 for 2, but it's tomorrow where it really starts to matter


----------



## dave r (4 Dec 2020)

Yes, the lads done well so far.

https://www.crash.net/f1/results/949766/1/f1-2020-sakhir-grand-prix-free-practice-results-2


----------



## Reynard (4 Dec 2020)

figbat said:


> I did wonder how George would fit the car - seems to be ok with it so far. Puts me in mind of one N Mansell Esq. and the McLaren MP4/10 Extra Wide special they had to build.



Height - you can pretzel a driver to a certain extent.

Mansell just had a fat arse.


----------



## matticus (5 Dec 2020)

55 seconds is a short lap?


----------



## dave r (5 Dec 2020)

Its very tight, just eight-tenths of a second covered positions 1-14.
The lads not done as well in third practice

https://www.crash.net/f1/results/949822/1/f1-2020-sakhir-grand-prix-free-practice-results-3

but he's not bad.


----------



## Reynard (5 Dec 2020)

matticus said:


> 55 seconds is a short lap?



Yeah, for F1... Next shortest is Interlagos at 1:10-ish

OTOH it's not a short lap for an oval - most superspeedways have a lap time of around 30-something seconds.


----------



## Phaeton (5 Dec 2020)

dave r said:


> Its very tight, just eight-tenths of a second covered positions 1-14.
> The lads not done as well in third practice
> 
> https://www.crash.net/f1/results/949822/1/f1-2020-sakhir-grand-prix-free-practice-results-3
> ...


But we don't know the fuel etc. Hopefully Friday was getting him up to speed today was race preparation I still have high hopes he will be top 4


----------



## Reynard (5 Dec 2020)

I'm hoping Lando will have a good one today - he didn't get much running yesterday but was pretty quick in FP3


----------



## dave r (5 Dec 2020)

Phaeton said:


> But we don't know the fuel etc. Hopefully Friday was getting him up to speed today was race preparation I still have high hopes he will be top 4



Now this is true, but Botas appears to have sorted himself out, and Red Bull have stepped it up, so we shall see how Russel goes in qualifying.


----------



## matticus (5 Dec 2020)

Reynard said:


> Yeah, for F1... Next shortest is Interlagos at 1:10-ish
> 
> OTOH it's not a short lap for an oval - most superspeedways have a lap time of around 30-something seconds.


15s is a big chunk off. Is there an FIA limit?


----------



## Phaeton (5 Dec 2020)

Spoiler



Well done, TBH it was likely the best that could be expected


----------



## dave r (5 Dec 2020)

Phaeton said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Well done, TBH it was likely the best that could be expected



I'll be watching at half nine on channel four.


----------



## Beebo (5 Dec 2020)

matticus said:


> 55 seconds is a short lap?


Bottas just called it Mickey Mouse. 😁


----------



## Reynard (5 Dec 2020)

matticus said:


> 15s is a big chunk off. Is there an FIA limit?



I'm not sure, you know...

This track is 2.2 miles, Interlagos is 2.6. Monaco is just a smidgin over 2 miles.


----------



## Illaveago (6 Dec 2020)

I thought he did pretty well !


----------



## dave r (6 Dec 2020)

Illaveago said:


> I thought he did pretty well !



He did, he might fade a bit in the race though, he's in a cockpit built for Hamilton who's 5' 7" and he's 6' 2", its a bit tight in there.


----------



## figbat (6 Dec 2020)

When they showed side-by-side cockpit footage of his lap vs Bottas’ you could see how much higher George’s helmet sits relative to the halo. This in itself is going to compromise the car aerodynamically and in terms of airbox inflow. To get that close to Bottas is an incredible feat, when Bottas often gets that close to Lewis.


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (6 Dec 2020)

dave r said:


> I'll be watching at half nine on channel four.


That's what I tend to do, avoiding at all costs the BBC news page because they flash up big stories whenever Hamilton sets a fastest lap, qualifies for pole etc. I thought it was possibly pettiness after losing F1 and just wanting to spoil things for CH4 viewers but yesterday there was nothing. Not a chirp on the main news page about the guy from the back of the grid being almost literally shoehorned into his car then driving it within hundredths of a second of Hamilton's pace. There was a wee bit on the sport box at the bottom, but that disappeared quickly. Without Hamilton, the BBC don't seem as interested in F1.


----------



## dave r (6 Dec 2020)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> That's what I tend to do, avoiding at all costs the BBC news page because they flash up big stories whenever Hamilton sets a fastest lap, qualifies for pole etc. I thought it was possibly pettiness after losing F1 and just wanting to spoil things for CH4 viewers but yesterday there was nothing. Not a chirp on the main news page about the guy from the back of the grid being almost literally shoehorned into his car then driving it within hundredths of a second of Hamilton's pace. There was a wee bit on the sport box at the bottom, but that disappeared quickly. Without Hamilton, the BBC don't seem as interested in F1.



I'm usually trying to avoid news bulletins and facebook till I've seen qualifying/the race.


----------



## GoldenLamprey (6 Dec 2020)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> Without Hamilton, the BBC don't seem as interested in F1.


That would change if Russell got promoted into a Mercedes seat and started winning. National news (in any country) loves a home-grown hero to shout about.


----------



## Reynard (6 Dec 2020)

I always listen to the live race and qualifying on Radio 5 Live. The coverage is actually pretty decent, as is the live text feed.

Mind, this (Hamilton) is nothing compared to Mansellmania, although admittedly there wasn't social media back then.


----------



## Phaeton (6 Dec 2020)

What a race!!!


----------



## Reynard (6 Dec 2020)

Bonkers doesn't even describe it... Can we come here every week?


----------



## figbat (6 Dec 2020)

The result was both disappointing and remarkable. Could... should have been a fairytale and as it turns out it was, just the wrong one.


----------



## Reynard (6 Dec 2020)

I'd love to see Checo in that 2nd Red Bull seat next year. I don't think Albon's shown enough.

OTOH we also found out that Bottas is merely... average.


----------



## Phaeton (6 Dec 2020)

I don't understand why WIlliams are not knocking on his door, they have Lafitti because he brings in lots of money (but he's rubbish, relatively speaking), but Checo probably brings more


----------



## figbat (6 Dec 2020)

To be a bit fair to Bottas, he was doing ok until Mercedes derailed him. But he was outshone by his team mate. Again.


----------



## Reynard (6 Dec 2020)

I dunno, he (Bottas) was making mistakes - little ones, but mistakes nonetheless, almost all weekend. You could see he was under pressure.


----------



## figbat (6 Dec 2020)

His start was classic Bottas - screw it up then panic. He was pulling George in until the safety car. He was made to look ordinary in the final stint by the tyres he was on.


----------



## Jenkins (6 Dec 2020)

No spoilers, but WOW. Bit of everything in that one.


----------



## Phaeton (6 Dec 2020)

Yeah careful folks, others won't see it until after 9:30 tonight, let's keep it general.


----------



## figbat (6 Dec 2020)

Phaeton said:


> Yeah careful folks, others won't see it until after 9:30 tonight, let's keep it general.


I mostly liked the bit with the cars.


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (6 Dec 2020)

Unbelievable.


----------



## dave r (6 Dec 2020)

That was a bonkers race, well done Checo, tough luck Russel.


----------



## Phaeton (7 Dec 2020)

Bet Toto is kicking himself for doing a 3 year deal with Williams for Russell


----------



## Illaveago (7 Dec 2020)

Is Albon algone ?


----------



## dave r (7 Dec 2020)

Illaveago said:


> Is Albon algone ?



Not yet.


----------



## Phaeton (7 Dec 2020)

Illaveago said:


> Is Albon algone ?


I'm not sure he will be, if they bring somebody else in from the outside (Perez) they are effectively admitting their young drivers programme doesn't work, or they backed the wrong youngsters.


----------



## Illaveago (7 Dec 2020)

Phaeton said:


> I'm not sure he will be, if they bring somebody else in from the outside (Perez) they are effectively admitting their young drivers programme doesn't work, or they backed the wrong youngsters.


Well I think they backed the wrong driver when they swapped him with the driver who went to Toro Rosso. Driving a similar car to Vestapen you would expect him to be a bit closer to him in the races by now .


----------



## Phaeton (7 Dec 2020)

Illaveago said:


> Well I think they backed the wrong driver when they swapped him with the driver who went to Toro Rosso. Driving a similar car to Vestapen you would expect him to be a bit closer to him in the races by now .


I disagree, Gasly was completely overwhelmed with what was required of him, he could do the bit on the track which he has since proved, what he couldn't handle was the media & the spotlight, including always being compared to Verstappen. Once he was released from the limelight, reset himself he's shown how good a driver he is, but he's likely to crack again if the pressure was put on again, for his own sanity I hope they don't try to bring him back. 

To my mind the biggest mistake they made was alienating Ricciardo, he is/was a driver who could push Verstappen, but they pinned all their tails on the one donkey, they openly were stating they were building the team around him as future world champion, what did they expect Ricciardo to do, he still has aspirations of doing it himself.


----------



## icowden (7 Dec 2020)

Phaeton said:


> Bet Toto is kicking himself for doing a 3 year deal with Williams for Russell



Depends how you look at it.
He has a seven time world champion as the lead driver, always delivering, and a steady wing man in Bottas making sure they get the constructors. I suspect Toto wanted to bring George in once it looked like Hamilton is approaching retirement, so that they continue to win. And based on George's form vs Bottas yesterday it looks like a good bet. The drives are already sorted out for next year, so I reckon George is looking at a 2023 move to Merc.


----------



## Phaeton (7 Dec 2020)

icowden said:


> Depends how you look at it.
> He has a seven time world champion as the lead driver, always delivering, and a steady wing man in Bottas making sure they get the constructors. I suspect Toto wanted to bring George in once it looked like Hamilton is approaching retirement, so that they continue to win. And based on George's form vs Bottas yesterday it looks like a good bet. The drives are already sorted out for next year, so I reckon George is looking at a 2023 move to Merc.


You could be right, it's better to have a 1-2 in some ways better than the Hamilton-Rosberg scenario of them both fighting for every point & letting Verstappen in by the back door. Although I disagree (unless a typo) that George is looking at 2023, I think it's 2022 as Hamilton will be hanging up his gloves at the end of next year when Toto also leaves.


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (7 Dec 2020)

Isn't Williams about to get some serious money pumped into it though?


----------



## Phaeton (7 Dec 2020)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> Isn't Williams about to get some serious money pumped into it though?


Not heard anything other than they have been taken over by a VC, so presumably they will gather more investment as they don't do it for the shoots & giggles they do it for the ROI.


----------



## icowden (8 Dec 2020)

Phaeton said:


> Although I disagree (unless a typo) that George is looking at 2023, I think it's 2022 as Hamilton will be hanging up his gloves at the end of next year when Toto also leaves.



That's a good point, although Hamilton has given no real indication that he wants to retire and could easily go on for another 5 years...


----------



## Cerdic (10 Dec 2020)

Maybe the thinking is that Hamilton will retire after winning one more World Championship, giving him the outright record. On current form that could be the end of next season!


----------



## Phaeton (10 Dec 2020)

Cerdic said:


> Maybe the thinking is that Hamilton will retire after winning one more World Championship, giving him the outright record. On current form that could be the end of next season!


That along with the change in regs there is no guarantee that Mercedes will be at the front of the pack.

Feel sorry for Russell, Hamilton has been declared fit, he's going to be screaming in the helmet tomorrow when the Williams won't do what the Mercedes did.


----------



## classic33 (10 Dec 2020)

There was an e-mail in circulation, last week, saying that any attendee at this weeks Grand Prix would not be allowed to enter the country if they had had the virus.

How has that been worked round?


----------



## Jenkins (10 Dec 2020)

There was an item on Autosport that covered it, but basically the F1 circus is in a biosphere - travelled as a group and six hotels specially allocated to them plus another hotel for the track workers. All had to be tested before leaving Bahrain and again at Abu Dhabi.

Hamilton completed his quarrantine in Bahrain and tested negative so is free to race this weekend.


----------



## Cerdic (11 Dec 2020)

Phaeton said:


> That along with the change in regs there is no guarantee that Mercedes will be at the front of the pack.



Very true, but how much would you bet against it...?


----------



## classic33 (11 Dec 2020)

Jenkins said:


> There was an item on Autosport that covered it, but basically the F1 circus is in a biosphere - travelled as a group and six hotels specially allocated to them plus another hotel for the track workers. All had to be tested before leaving Bahrain and again at Abu Dhabi.
> 
> Hamilton completed his quarrantine in Bahrain and tested negative so is free to race this weekend.


The e-mail applied to those in the F1 circus. 

He tested positive two days after, seven days isolation, followed by a requirement to return four negative tests. That's thirteen days in total, minimum. Race on Sunday will be twelve days after, one day short.


----------



## icowden (15 Mar 2021)

So, anyone excited about the new F1 season? Looks like Red Bull may have a machine to reckon with...


----------



## Phaeton (15 Mar 2021)

I want to be but, not feeling it yet..


----------



## figbat (15 Mar 2021)

icowden said:


> So, anyone excited about the new F1 season? Looks like Red Bull may have a machine to reckon with...


Many’s the time the pre-season testing has raised false hopes. But yes, I’m ready to get on with this season.


----------



## icowden (16 Mar 2021)

That's true. Mercedes have been in "terrible condition" in almost every pre-season test, before storming it for the season.


----------



## Beebo (16 Mar 2021)

Sadly I won’t be watching live. 
Just heard an advert for Sky F1. 
£18 a month on top of your Sky subscription. Who would pay that for two races a month?


----------



## icowden (16 Mar 2021)

Beebo said:


> Sadly I won’t be watching live.
> Just heard an advert for Sky F1.
> £18 a month on top of your Sky subscription. Who would pay that for two races a month?



Once Sky's contract finishes we are likely to have to use F1 TV which is about £60 for the year. Unfortunately sky paid a billion for exclusive screening rights in the UK (they have a contract in Germany too) until 2024. No wonder it's pricey - they are trying to make back the investment!


----------



## Phaeton (16 Mar 2021)

icowden said:


> Once Sky's contract finishes we are likely to have to use F1 TV which is about £60 for the year.


Just looked they have Jolyon Palmer that's enough on it's own for me not to be interested, even if it was free


----------



## figbat (16 Mar 2021)

Beebo said:


> Sadly I won’t be watching live.
> Just heard an advert for Sky F1.
> £18 a month on top of your Sky subscription. Who would pay that for two races a month?


I’m lucky that when I first took out Sky+ HD the F1 channel was bundled in, and many years later I still have it.

To be accurate though, you get all F1 coverage; pre-season testing, practice sessions, qualifying and the races, not to mention the other stuff (interviews, behind the scenes, analysis etc). You also get the support races and other stuff like IndyCar. Whether this interests you is your call.


----------



## gbb (16 Mar 2021)

icowden said:


> So, anyone excited about the new F1 season? Looks like Red Bull may have a machine to reckon with...


At 62, I've avidly watched F1 for as long as I can remember. But I just cannot get excited about it any more, Mercedes have killed it and if Porsche did join in, i think it would get worse, not better. I will watch but with a grudging eye. It's a pretty pitiful spectacle compared to times gone by.


----------



## Cerdic (16 Mar 2021)

The technology has killed a lot of the excitement.

You have always had dominant teams, but in the old days races were still unpredictable because cars broke down a lot. And they broke because they were pushing the boundaries of technology in search of speed. Now we have tightly worded regulations designed to limit the cars to a 'sensible' speed!


----------



## icowden (17 Mar 2021)

Not only that but we have the daft situation where the drivers have to micromanage the car, forget racing and make tyres last, lift off to preserve fuel etc. It would be great if they could just race.

I'm looking forward to the complete revamp for next year. It could prove interesting. I'm also interested to see where F1 goes from here. With engine manufacturers rapidly losing interest in combustion engines, I do wonder whether F1 will at some point essentially become Formula E. 

I tried to get into Formula E but I can't get on board with the "vote for your favourite driver to get a speed boost" or the "drive over the special square for a bonus". It just feels more like Formula Mario Kart. Just waiting for the next rule change where weapons are allowed....


----------



## figbat (17 Mar 2021)

I agree about Formula E - this appears to have been set up from the start as entertainment rather than sport, although it has undoubtedly driven progress in EVs, batteries, motors and such (remember the early days when they had to change car half way through the race in order to finish!).

I am looking forward to the Extreme E series and hope it delivers on its promise.


----------



## Phaeton (17 Mar 2021)

I too am a Formula E detractor I just can't get into it, I think it's the circuits, as said it's positioned as an entertainment rather than sport, although I think they should re-vamp the cars into stockcars & maybe just run an oval with contact racing as they seem to enjoy bashing & clashing with each other.

With regards to where F1 goes, they have to grasp the metal & go different, they need to go down the alternative fuel route, be that hydrogen or something else, I don't think electric is the answer & F1 has to be relevant to the motor industry, there was talk of a 2 stroke diesel hybrid engine, nut not heard anything for a while.


----------



## glasgowcyclist (17 Mar 2021)

This is very sad news about Sabine Schmitz, who has died from cancer aged just 51.

I remember seeing her on Top Gear, driving a Transit van around Nurburgring ring flat out.

Sabine Schmitz: Former racing driver and Top Gear presenter dies aged 51 - BBC Sport 


_"Former Top Gear presenter Sabine Schmitz - famous for being the only woman to win the Nurburgring 24 Hours - has died aged 51._​​_Schmitz said last year that she had been diagnosed with cancer in 2017._​_Schmitz had become synonymous with the Nurburgring Nordschleife, the 14-mile circuit in Germany that is renowned as the toughest in the world._​​_She won the 24-hour touring car race at the track twice, in 1996 and 1997, driving a BMW M3._​​_She became known as the "Queen of the Nurburgring" and estimated she had driven around the track more than 20,000 times._​​_Schmitz later gained acclaim for an appearance on Top Gear in 2004 in which she drove a van around the track, and subsequently became a presenter on the show__ alongside Chris Evans in 2016."_​


----------



## Phaeton (17 Mar 2021)

Oh shoot! sorry for the profanity but that comes as a shock.


----------



## raleighnut (17 Mar 2021)

icowden said:


> Not only that but we have the daft situation where the drivers have to micromanage the car, forget racing and make tyres last, lift off to preserve fuel etc. It would be great if they could just race.
> 
> I'm looking forward to the complete revamp for next year. It could prove interesting. I'm also interested to see where F1 goes from here. With engine manufacturers rapidly losing interest in combustion engines, I do wonder whether F1 will at some point essentially become Formula E.
> 
> I tried to get into Formula E but I can't get on board with the "vote for your favourite driver to get a speed boost" or the "drive over the special square for a bonus". It just feels more like Formula Mario Kart. Just waiting for the next rule change where weapons are allowed....


Drivers have always 'micro managed' the cars, the best example being Jim Clark, a couple of examples

When racing the new Lotus for the 1st time his team mate Graham Hill over revved his car an broke a tooth off the timing gear, Clark won

At one race Clark was coasting around one long corner with the clutch pressed down when asled why he said "Well the oil pressure was dropping dangerously low" (this led to the team modifying the oil pick up in the sump to stop this) again Clark won the race.


View: https://youtu.be/801G75BkIsU


----------



## raleighnut (17 Mar 2021)

glasgowcyclist said:


> This is very sad news about Sabine Schmitz, who has died from cancer aged just 51.
> 
> I remember seeing her on Top Gear, driving a Transit van around Nurburgring ring flat out.
> 
> ...


Gawd that's terrible news.


----------



## icowden (17 Mar 2021)

raleighnut said:


> Drivers have always 'micro managed' the cars, the best example being Jim Clark, a couple of examples



Maybe I phrased that wrong. I meant to move away from having tires specifically designed to wear out, thus forcing drivers to tippytoe. etc.


----------



## gbb (18 Mar 2021)

Agree with the negative sentiments re Formula E, I tried it several times, it just doesnt work for me...and while I realise that's just my experience, it makes you wonder if car racing's popularity will be significantly reduced as electric cars become the norm for racing.
Alternatively, with Formula 1 and E, it may be the presentation. It's all soooooo slick now, the pundits, the graphics, the music and theatre of the presentation....I find it all a bit much nowadays, it's just not helping IMHO.


----------



## raleighnut (18 Mar 2021)

gbb said:


> Agree with the negative sentiments re Formula E, I tried it several times, it just doesnt work for me...and while I realise that's just my experience, it makes you wonder if car racing's popularity will be significantly reduced as electric cars become the norm for racing.
> Alternatively, with Formula 1 and E, it may be the presentation. It's all soooooo slick now, the pundits, the graphics, the music and theatre of the presentation....I find it all a bit much nowadays, it's just not helping IMHO.


Yup, bike racing is going the same way too


----------



## Beebo (18 Mar 2021)

gbb said:


> Alternatively, with Formula 1 and E, it may be the presentation. It's all soooooo slick now, the pundits, the graphics, the music and theatre of the presentation....I find it all a bit much nowadays, it's just not helping IMHO.


They are aiming it at a new younger audience. 
Computer graphics, data and stats are all the rage.


----------



## gbb (18 Mar 2021)

Beebo said:


> They are aiming it at a new younger audience.
> Computer graphics, data and stats are all the rage.


Deep down, I know it. But it's all so hollow, glitzy, fleeting...like so much thats anything to do with the internet. Shallow springs to mind.


----------



## Reynard (18 Mar 2021)

I dunno, I really rather enjoy Formula E...

But then I know a bunch of folks involved in the series from my time on the engineering and media side of the sport. Although, having said that, I don't tend to watch the build-up / aftermath, just the race.

I've still got to wait till May for the touring cars.


----------



## matticus (18 Mar 2021)

gbb said:


> Deep down, I know it. But it's all so hollow, glitzy, fleeting...like so much thats anything to do with the internet. Shallow springs to mind.


What would Hemingway think about it, I wonder?

<shuffles off to the library mountaineering section ... >


----------



## aferris2 (18 Mar 2021)

Reynard said:


> I've still got to wait till May for the touring cars.


For me, the best racing is V8 Supercars which have already kicked off this year. Second round this weekend. Compulsory pit stops, tyre changes and refueling make for many different strategies, so you can be almost down to the last few laps before knowing who is going to come out on top.
F1 still holds an interest but with highlights only it's lost some of its appeal. 
BTCC and the support races are good and a good excuse to just sit in front of the TV for nearly a whole day.
Not sure about Formula E. Great tech, but I'm not a fan of the barriers all round the circuits.


----------



## Reynard (18 Mar 2021)

aferris2 said:


> F1 still holds an interest but with highlights only it's lost some of its appeal.



I only got a telly for my 13th birthday, so grew up listening to motor racing on the radio. Which is what I now do for F1, plus use a live timing service. I refuse to pay into Bernie's retirement fund.



> BTCC and the support races are good and a good excuse to just sit in front of the TV for nearly a whole day.



Definitely. Although it's also an excuse to hit the snacks, which is maybe not quite so good LOL



> Not sure about Formula E. Great tech, but I'm not a fan of the barriers all round the circuits.



It's effectively a World Street Circuit Championship, which is what makes it totally unique in motor racing. And I think for me, that's part of the appeal, because it's far less forgiving when a driver makes a mistake.


----------



## matticus (18 Mar 2021)

Reynard said:


> It's effectively a World Street Circuit Championship, which is what makes it totally unique in motor racing. And I think for me, that's part of the appeal, because it's far less forgiving when a driver makes a mistake.


Hmmm. I love the Monaco GP - because it's so different. I don't think I'd enjoy a whole season of races like that.


----------



## Reynard (18 Mar 2021)

matticus said:


> Hmmm. I love the Monaco GP - because it's so different. I don't think I'd enjoy a whole season of races like that.



Actually, it's surprising how varied street circuits can be.

I remember the F3000 race they used to hold around the streets of Birmingham.


----------



## matticus (19 Mar 2021)

Reynard said:


> Actually, it's surprising how varied street circuits can be.
> 
> I remember the F3000 race they used to hold around the streets of Birmingham.


Tough choice: Monaco vs The Venice of the North!


----------



## gbb (19 Mar 2021)

One of the greatest spectacles of F1 cars is the noise... unless you've heard that scream first hand, you cannot possibly imagine , its mind blowing.


----------



## figbat (19 Mar 2021)

gbb said:


> One of the greatest spectacles of F1 cars is *was* the noise... unless you've heard that scream first hand, you cannot possibly imagine , its mind blowing.


The last race I went to the GP2 cars were louder than the F1.  I did get to ’hear’ some F1 cars BITD, which was, as you say, something to experience. I say ‘hear’ but you pretty much _felt_ it all over.


----------



## BrumJim (19 Mar 2021)

matticus said:


> Tough choice: Monaco vs The Venice of the North!


Which of course is where the Birmingham Superprix went so very wrong. They used the concrete outer ring road for the main part of the route, when they should have zipped past the canal boats in Gas Street Basin, Casino Square replaced by The Grosvenor Casino near the seedy exit of New Street Station, Grand Hotel tunnel and hairpin by the Britannia Hotel on New Street itself preceeded by the Stephenson Street chicane, and the Swimming Pool complex by a trip round the Sealife Centre.

OK, overtaking would be even more difficult than Monaco on the canal towpaths, and the Superprix finished long before the redevelopment of most of these areas, but it would be iconic!


----------



## matticus (19 Mar 2021)

BrumJim said:


> it would be iconic!


Yes.

Yes it would.


----------



## icowden (19 Mar 2021)

Maybe in Brum they could make a circuit that's suitable for modern F1 cars. Monaco can be a bit of a procession these days.


----------



## BrumJim (19 Mar 2021)

icowden said:


> Maybe in Brum they could make a circuit that's suitable for modern F1 cars. Monaco can be a bit of a procession these days.


Why would they want to?


----------



## matticus (19 Mar 2021)

BrumJim said:


> Why would they want to?


Brighten the place up a bit?


----------



## BrumJim (19 Mar 2021)

matticus said:


> Brighten the place up a bit?


You need to pop by again some time. We've brightened the place up a lot since the late '80s.


----------



## matticus (19 Mar 2021)

BrumJim said:


> You need to pop by again some time. We've brightened the place up a lot since the late '80s.


Fair point. Sadly all I ever see is the basement of New Street station. Probably not a great advert for the city ...


----------



## BrumJim (19 Mar 2021)

matticus said:


> Fair point. Sadly all I ever see is the basement of New Street station. Probably not a great advert for the city ...



I don't see that much of New Street Station basement level these days. It used to be the location of the secret underground link between platforms for those that couldn't use the stairs or escalators. It had that dark, dingy air of somewhere where either something bad had happened, or something bad was about to happen, and you half expected some sort of semi-benevolent ogre to inhabit this world of wheelchairs and pushchairs. Nowadays there are two lifts on each platform that take you up to the bright, airy concourse rather than downwards, one of which is big enough to hold a party inside.


----------



## Reynard (19 Mar 2021)

gbb said:


> One of the greatest spectacles of F1 cars is the noise... unless you've heard that scream first hand, you cannot possibly imagine , its mind blowing.



Actually, the most mind-blowing noise I ever came across on a racing car was the TVR Cerbera Speed 12 that Bobby Verdon-Roe used to race in the British GT championship.

I've stood next to that when it's been fired up in the paddock, and that nigh turns your bones (and most of the rest of you) to jelly.

And I've experienced everything from F1 to FVee and just about all other series in between in my time as a snappy.


----------



## Reynard (19 Mar 2021)

I've even immortalized cars at the Superprix in paint... Paul Warwick, Leyton House LH90B, on the exit of Halfords Corner...







1990 was the last year the Superprix was held, IIRC...


----------



## Beebo (28 Mar 2021)

Well that sounded great on the radio. No spoilers. But the highlights will be worth watching.


----------



## Phaeton (28 Mar 2021)

Yes it was quite good to watch, many questions remaining though, which we'll not talk about until others have seen it.


----------



## Reynard (28 Mar 2021)

Yup, that was a damn good listen.

I chewed my finger nails right down to the elbows...


----------



## figbat (28 Mar 2021)

Edge of the seat stuff! Some good performances throughout the field too.


----------



## gbb (28 Mar 2021)

Good race, one of the best I've seen for some time tbf. 
I dont enjoy C4s presentation at all, it's all a bit immature IMO, but there was a lot happening where it matters, nice to see Aston Martin have a solid performance, McLaren did very well, Tsonoda must be ecstatic with his result.

Perez is absolutely one to watch based on today's race, the result might have been quite different if his car had been reliable in the beginning.

We need a lot more like that (well I do anyway)


----------



## Phaeton (29 Mar 2021)

I missed the parade lap, couldn't get the laptop to work, so unsure what actually happened to Perez, but I think they may have in him what they lacked in the others, not sure he will be fighting with Max, but he will be taking points of Mercedes by beating Bottas, which is important for the team world championships. Vettel was unimpressive, Alonso outperformed the car, but was it a political retirement? Just a same that although Red Bull have closed the gap to Mercedes, the others don't appear to have closed on them both.


----------



## figbat (29 Mar 2021)

Perez’s car just cut out on the formation lap, total power failure. He managed to reboot it though.


----------



## icowden (29 Mar 2021)

gbb said:


> Perez is absolutely one to watch based on today's race, the result might have been quite different if his car had been reliable in the beginning.


Not only that but the whole Mercedes / Red Bull fight might have played out differently with Red Bull being able to use Perez to mix it up.
It was great to see the grid mixing up though with some of the lower rank teams bringing it in qually, and loads of overtakes during the race.
Superb race on what is usually a really boring track.


----------



## glasgowcyclist (29 Mar 2021)

Phaeton said:


> Yes it was quite good to watch, many questions remaining though



Yes, such as what planet is Vettel on?!


----------



## Phaeton (29 Mar 2021)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Yes, such as what planet is Vettel on?!


Yeah that's one of them, TBH if he's had a really bad accident at some point like Martin Brundle did, he openly admits after Melbourne his heart was no longer in it. What has changed in Vettel's life, but he's certainly lost something currently, surely he doesn't need to the money?


----------



## icowden (29 Mar 2021)

Phaeton said:


> Yeah that's one of them, TBH if he's had a really bad accident at some point like Martin Brundle did, he openly admits after Melbourne his heart was no longer in it. What has changed in Vettel's life, but he's certainly lost something currently, surely he doesn't need to the money?


I'm baffled as to why he hasn't just retired. He doesn't seem to have any winning capability any more. It was nice seeing George Russell being able to get his Williams off the back row for once.


----------



## figbat (29 Mar 2021)

The same with Kimi - trundling around in the mid-to-rear pack, occasionally getting feisty with former team mates but more than often being notable for being overtaken by someone half his age.

Vettel - I'll reserve judgement on the car and team until they have a couple of races under their belts, and maybe with the 2022 regs in place. However he is still blaming everyone but himself for blunders and mistakes. He had a pop at Ocon for moving across on him, when Ocon held a perfectly straight line, on the racing line, and Seb swerved in behind him and unsurprisingly lost downforce on his front wing and locked up into him. He has subsequently admitted it was "probably my mistake" but that incident plus the penalty from qualifying for ignoring double waved yellows puts him on 5 penalty points from just one race meeting. He has a history of totting up so will need to play nicely for the next 22 races.


----------



## dave r (29 Mar 2021)

figbat said:


> The same with Kimi - trundling around in the mid-to-rear pack, occasionally getting feisty with former team mates but more than often being notable for being overtaken by someone half his age.
> 
> Vettel - I'll reserve judgement on the car and team until they have a couple of races under their belts, and maybe with the 2022 regs in place. However he is still blaming everyone but himself for blunders and mistakes. He had a pop at Ocon for moving across on him, when Ocon held a perfectly straight line, on the racing line, and Seb swerved in behind him and unsurprisingly lost downforce on his front wing and locked up into him. He has subsequently admitted it was "probably my mistake" but that incident plus the penalty from qualifying for ignoring double waved yellows puts him on 5 penalty points from just one race meeting. He has a history of totting up so will need to play nicely for the next 22 races.



I don't understand why Vettel didn't just retire at the end of last season, he seems to have lost the plot totally lately, I think Kimi is still driving just because he enjoys it, it's a shame they are taking up seats that new up and coming drivers could take.


----------



## Reynard (29 Mar 2021)

One thing that's clear about Seb, is that once he was in a less good car (and that includes his last couple of years at Red Bull), he was basically found out - namely that he's good, but not *that* good. IMHO the four world titles really do flatter him massively.

It's easy to be out in front in a really good car without competition from your team mate (for whatever reason), but in a less good car, a truly excellent driver can still pull the rabbits out of the hat as it were.

Sometimes a new environment gives a driver the mental boost he needs to get back to the right level of performance, but so far, with Seb, it's same old, same old... With all that whingeing and moaning, he's definitely channeling his inner Nigel Mansell. Hell, he even runs the same race number...


----------



## matticus (31 Mar 2021)

There was a tinge of sadness in the race for me; it's clear that "overtake" has now been forcibly converted to a noun, and our old noun friend "pass" has been retired, without even a mention in dispatches.


----------



## icowden (19 Apr 2021)

Anyone watch Imola? Amazing race!!


----------



## figbat (19 Apr 2021)

It was pretty interesting, although I have the feeling it was somewhat hollow, since the mid-race ‘reset’ undid many earlier poor decisions and mistakes. Lewis’s recovery drive was pretty impressive though, given the opportunity he was gifted (by his team mate, ironically).


----------



## Phaeton (19 Apr 2021)

A Williams overtaking a Mercedes even with DRS is impressive, although Bottas appears to have already gone to lunch this season already, i think Hamilton has broken him, he needs to go find a new challenge to restore his faith in himself


----------



## matticus (19 Apr 2021)

figbat said:


> Lewis’s recovery drive was pretty impressive though


Yeah. He did have to drive the thing, and keep a calm head; but a lot of things conspired to make that comeback feasible!

Anyway, you can't beat a slightly damp track for drama :-)


----------



## icowden (19 Apr 2021)

matticus said:


> Yeah. He did have to drive the thing, and keep a calm head; but a lot of things conspired to make that comeback feasible!



Not least that I think any other driver would have got out of the car once trapped in the gravel. To be able to get it out of there was frankly astonishing.


----------



## figbat (19 Apr 2021)

There were quite a few people driving out of the gravel. I think it being wet ironically offers more traction and less tendency to dig in and bog down.

I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a F1 car reverse that far though!


----------



## Phaeton (19 Apr 2021)

figbat said:


> I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a F1 car reverse that far though!


I didn't think you would be allowed to reverse onto the track, I seem to remember somebody (Mansell?) reversing in the pit lane & getting a penalty


----------



## figbat (19 Apr 2021)

The pit lane is very severely policed and no reversing is permitted.


----------



## matticus (19 Apr 2021)

The REAL controversy would have started if Verstappen's safety car mini-off had turned into a multi-car collision


----------



## Reynard (19 Apr 2021)

Phaeton said:


> I didn't think you would be allowed to reverse onto the track, I seem to remember somebody (Mansell?) reversing in the pit lane & getting a penalty



That's the one that sprung to mind for me! 

Portugal 1989. He missed his pit box on the tyre stop and reversed back down the pit lane rather than wait for his mechanics to come and pull him back. Mansell was black flagged for his pains.

The race that was almost won by Ivan Capelli in the Leyton House-sponsored March. (edited to say I had a brain fart - that was the '88 race)

N.B. The rules in the pit lane are different to the rules out on track.


----------



## Phaeton (19 Apr 2021)

Reynard said:


> That's the one that sprung to mind for me!
> 
> Portugal 1989. He missed his pit box on the tyre stop and reversed back down the pit lane rather than wait for his mechanics to come and pull him back. Mansell was black flagged for his pains.
> 
> ...


Just seems illogical to allow reversing on track, but I suppose certain tracks you would not have any other option to get back on it.


----------



## icowden (19 Apr 2021)

figbat said:


> There were quite a few people driving out of the gravel. I think it being wet ironically offers more traction and less tendency to dig in and bog down.
> I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a F1 car reverse that far though!



There were people coming out with momentum or the ability to continue forward, but Lewis was the only car stopped on the gravel, on slicks, in what's usually a game over position. The control to get the car to reverse without spinning, and then to take a full reverse to the right part of the track to let him continue forwards without getting stuck was impressive.


----------



## matticus (19 Apr 2021)

They're not like us normal drivers - I've even heard that some can parallel park!


----------



## sheddy (19 Apr 2021)

LH demonstrating the effectiveness of front wheel drive offroad.


----------



## Phaeton (19 Apr 2021)

Wonder if he was deploying the electrics to stop the wheels spinning rather than the primary engine which is very torquey with the turbo


----------



## Reynard (19 Apr 2021)

Phaeton said:


> Just seems illogical to allow reversing on track, but I suppose certain tracks you would not have any other option to get back on it.



They have to be fitted with a reverse gear to allow the marshals to be able to remove cars. And for drivers to be able to extract themselves from where running out of talent has left them without the marshals' assistance. Because as soon as the marshals touch the car, that's game over, as drivers are not allowed outside assistance to get going again.

I'm not entirely au fait with the current iteration of the F1 sporting regulations, but unless reversing a car puts others into a dangerous situation, then it's perfectly fine.


----------



## Phaeton (19 Apr 2021)

Reynard said:


> They have to be fitted with a reverse gear to allow the marshals to be able to remove cars. And for drivers to be able to extract themselves from where running out of talent has left them without the marshals' assistance. Because as soon as the marshals touch the car, that's game over, as drivers are not allowed outside assistance to get going again.
> 
> I'm not entirely au fait with the current iteration of the F1 sporting regulations, but unless reversing a car puts others into a dangerous situation, then it's perfectly fine.


Again seem to remember a situation with a M Schmaucher & the Red Rule book, he spun into gravel, or was against the barrier or something like that & the marshals pushed him back, but because it was deemed he was in a dangerous position he got away with it. 

The other time I'm sure I've seen them get assistance was when Lowes Hairpin at Monaco became a car park in one race


----------



## Phaeton (19 Apr 2021)

But going back to Bottas & Russel, my initial thought was Bottas deliberately closed the gap, but Anthony Davidson in skysport/f1 shows he was just taking the normal dry line which did close the gap, but at nearly 200mph Russell probably seemed like he was him, but I do take objections to Wolff's suggestion that maybe Russell ought to think of his future next years before overtaking a Mercedes.


----------



## icowden (20 Apr 2021)

Phaeton said:


> I do take objections to Wolff's suggestion that maybe Russell ought to think of his future next years before overtaking a Mercedes.



Yes, I thought that was an odd comment. Russell may be a Mercedes driver, but he is driving a Williams and shouldn't be playing "favourites". He went for a legit overtake, misjudged the space that would be left because of the dry line and clipped the grass. A racing error. Luckily safety has improved so much that both drivers were ok.


----------



## Phaeton (20 Apr 2021)

icowden said:


> Yes, I thought that was an odd comment. Russell may be a Mercedes driver, but he is driving a Williams and shouldn't be playing "favourites". He went for a legit overtake, misjudged the space that would be left because of the dry line and clipped the grass. A racing error. Luckily safety has improved so much that both drivers were ok.


Instead of threatening Russell with driving Formula Renault next year, he should be threatening Bottas with driving a Williams this year.


----------



## matticus (20 Apr 2021)

Phaeton said:


> But going back to Bottas & Russel, my initial thought was Bottas deliberately closed the gap, but Anthony Davidson in skysport/f1 shows he was just taking the normal dry line which did close the gap, but at nearly 200mph Russell probably seemed like he was him


If Bottas had already moved left off the racing line to defend the corner, then the current rules explicitly forbid moving back onto the "normal" line to gain advantage, especially if this risks an accident. Drivers often still do this, but a blind eye is usually turned if no damage results.

(in addition he should be aware that closing down another driver at high speed risks triggering a collision, which is not going to be good for either of them. It's then irrelevant that on a good day Russell could/would have avoided the collision.)


----------



## Phaeton (20 Apr 2021)

matticus said:


> If Bottas had already moved left off the racing line to defend the corner, then the current rules explicitly forbid moving back onto the "normal" line to gain advantage, especially if this risks an accident. Drivers often still do this, but a blind eye is usually turned if no damage results.
> 
> (in addition he should be aware that closing down another driver at high speed risks triggering a collision, which is not going to be good for either of them. It's then irrelevant that on a good day Russell could/would have avoided the collision.)


No if you watch the clip you will see that Bottas does not move, all he does is follow the racing/drying line which as it's a left hander coming up drifts him to the right, which in turn narrows the gap left for Russell, going left to give Russell more space would put Bottas's left wheels onto the wet, which is something he would not want to do, he did at the last second as he was forced to give Russell more space, but by which time it was too late. Because he (Bottas) was following the racing/drying line to looked to Russell like he was being squeezed hence why he went right which was his error, he should have just held his nerve but that is easy to say as I wasn't there doing 200mph into a narrowing pinch point.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (20 Apr 2021)

It's one of those cases where you need to know the driver you're overtaking. Bottas absolutely isn't a 'run them off the track' driver. If Russell had stayed within track limits he'd have completed the overtake, but his slight inexperience played out, I think, and again in the aftermath.


----------



## matticus (20 Apr 2021)

Phaeton said:


> No if you watch the clip you will see that Bottas does not move


If he did not change from the racing line to defend the corner, then I accept your point. I've only seen the last few seconds* of the manuevre, and heard more than one commentator say that Bottas was defending the corner (not that their word is gospel!!! )

*Edit: what it really needs is overhead shot of the whole preceeding section - which I haven't found. And I'd rather take your word than spend all morning looking :P


----------



## matticus (20 Apr 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> he'd have completed the overtake


do you mean the pass?

(overtake is a verb - CycleChat has standards, we shouldn't let F1 fans drag us down)


----------



## classic33 (20 Apr 2021)

matticus said:


> do you mean the pass?
> 
> (overtake is a verb - CycleChat has standards, we shouldn't let F1 fans drag us down)


Upgraded "overtake" button
https://www.planetf1.com/news/overtake-button-new-engines/


----------



## Bonefish Blues (20 Apr 2021)

matticus said:


> do you mean the pass?
> 
> (overtake is a verb - CycleChat has standards, we shouldn't let F1 fans drag us down)


You know what, I'm much less of a purist than I used to be. I live a less stressful life as a result, and the language continues to evolve, as it has always done


----------



## matticus (20 Apr 2021)

classic33 said:


> Upgraded "overtake" button
> https://www.planetf1.com/news/overtake-button-new-engines/


The clue is in the URL; it contains "_f1_", so the web page quite likely to contain nonsense, possibly ungrammatical ( or worse, US English. For sure.)


----------



## Drago (20 Apr 2021)

I think Russell. 

Bottas did move across, but it was minimal and there was a good bitnof space remaining - he he wasn't being reckless. Russell misread what was going ro happen next, thinking Bottas was going to keep closing and moved over in anticipation of a continuing move that never came. Bottas is generally a clean racer and backed off, but by then Russell was on the grass and that was that. Watching it in slo mo shows there was always well over a cars width available up the inside, perhaps as much as a metre or more than a cars width, so the idea Russell was promulgating that he was squeezed off the track is laughable.

Remember as well that the business with defending mid overtake is gentlemans agreement, and not FIA sporting regulations. Even then, Bottas didn't aggressively defend by forcing anyone off - that was Russells own doing.

Also Russell's subsequent behaviour was ungentlemanly and reprehensible. Bottas was winded and battered, but for all Russell knew he could have been properly hurt and all Russell could do is gob off. No one expects another driver to start performing lifemsaving surgery, but in the event that Russell had stood there swearing at a severely injured or dying man then that would be the end of his career. That was neither the time nor the place.

Toto Wolff isn't happy with the whole thing and the subsequent expense for Mercedes when there is a cost cap in place - Wolff reckons the expense means the team will not be ablemto introducesome of their upgeades now necause that would put them over budget. Wolff, who manages both me, has described some of Russells post race comments on the matter as "bollocks". I suspect this incident alone won't keep Russell from a Mercedes contract next year, but another one like it, followed by more ungentlemanly and PR negative conduct, might well be enough to do his own legs. 

They talk about their racing instincts and the drivers blood being up, but thats bollards - these guys are the masters of self control and discipline. Russell gobbed off because it was in his nature to do so, and because he wanted to, and for no other reason,


----------



## Reynard (20 Apr 2021)

Five years on the engineering side of the sport, a decade as a photographer and journalist plus the time I've subsequently spent as an archivist has shown me all too often that racing drivers will throw the toys out of the pram on a regular basis if things aren't going their way. They're all far too competitive for their own good because they all want to win. (Or score points, beat their team mate etc.)

The very best drivers tend to be arrogant, ruthless, self-centered pillocks with a complete absence of a moral compass. It's rare that they're not.

There are times when you tiptoe around the garages, paddock and pit lane at your peril. DAMHIKT.


----------



## Beebo (20 Apr 2021)

Reynard said:


> The very best drivers tend to be arrogant, ruthless, self-centered pillocks with a complete absence of a moral compass. It's rare that they're not.


I think that is almost word for word Murray Walker’s description of James Hunt 😁


----------



## Reynard (20 Apr 2021)

Beebo said:


> I think that is almost word for word Murray Walker’s description of James Hunt 😁



You forgot alcohol-swilling, womanizing pot-smoker 

Don't think the current crop would get away with that. Look at the trouble Mazepin has gotten himself into...


----------



## Reynard (23 Apr 2021)

Don't forget about the Formula E in Valencia tomorrow and Sunday. Unusually, they are racing on a pukka circuit this weekend, not a street track, so will be interesting to see the difference.

Qualifying and races all on the i-player and BBC Sport website.


----------



## Salad Dodger (25 Apr 2021)

I watched the end of Formula E from Valencia. I have also watched highlights of the previous round (Rome?) on a street circuit. 
1) Which do you prefer? Street circuit or "adapted race track"? It seemed to me that there was more scope for racing and overtaking on the latter, where mistakes did not necessarily end up with a car hitting a barrier. 

2) What a fiasco at the finish! I really don't understand why the organisers feel the need to artificially reduce the amount of battery power left in a car because it has been held behind a safety car. In my simple world, whatever battery you have got left is whatever battery you have got left to beat the rest with. If that means you have the power to drive a few red hot laps in the closing stages of a race, then good!


----------



## Reynard (25 Apr 2021)

Mistakes ended up with cars beached in the gravel - which amounts to the same thing.

The power reduction has always been a thing in Formula E with the 2nd generation cars. I don't recall it with the gen 1 cars, but then they needed to switch cars halfway through the race as the batteries weren't big enough to last.

Energy management and the strategy of energy management has always been a part of this formula - it's why the majority of the good drivers come from the world of endurance racing, as they have to do similar with the fuel allocation. The point is, that if they didn't reduce the energy, you take away the whole tactical aspect.

Usually it's not an issue, but when someone gets the maths wrong, it kind of implodes.


----------



## Phaeton (25 Apr 2021)

Just watched race 1, what a F'ing joke, how to spoil a good race, the cars looked like they belongs there, apart from the stupid chicane on the start finish straight that was the best racing I've ever seen them do. But to play with charge levels after being behind the safety car WTF! if they were petrol cars you wouldn't pull them over & take fuel out.


----------



## icowden (25 Apr 2021)

Reynard said:


> Energy management and the strategy of energy management has always been a part of this formula - it's why the majority of the good drivers come from the world of endurance racing, as they have to do similar with the fuel allocation. The point is, that if they didn't reduce the energy, you take away the whole tactical aspect.



I'm with Phaeton - you wouldn't take petrol out of an F1 car, why reduce the charge in an FE car? It makes no sense. If you benefit from a safety in F1 you conserve petrol and have more to attack with.


----------



## Reynard (25 Apr 2021)

Don't ask me, I'm not the one who writes the rules... 

But is it any more daft than the joker loop in rallycross?


----------



## Phaeton (25 Apr 2021)

icowden said:


> I'm with Phaeton - you wouldn't take petrol out of an F1 car, why reduce the charge in an FE car? It makes no sense. If you benefit from a safety in F1 you conserve petrol and have more to attack with.


Or as they do in BTCC extend the race length


Reynard said:


> But is it any more daft than the joker loop in rallycross?


Although it's daft at least they know at the beginning they have to do it & factor it in.this seems to have just been sprung on them


----------



## Reynard (25 Apr 2021)

Phaeton said:


> Or as they do in BTCC extend the race length
> 
> Although it's daft at least they know at the beginning they have to do it & factor it in.this seems to have just been sprung on them



No, it's not. The energy reduction behind the safety car is something that's been done since they brought in the gen 2 cars some three years ago. It's part of the rules, and normally it's not a problem per se. OK, usually, one or two get it wrong, but rarely the whole field.

I don't think anyone anticipated five safety cars yesterday, particularly the two so close to the end of the race. It's much. much easier to make up an energy deficit earlier on in the race than right at the last minute.

If the cars constantly ran at full power, they'd only have enough juice in the battery to do about 20 minutes rather than the 45 mins + 1 lap that a race actually lasts.

If there's one thing I've learned about Formula E in the years I've been watching it (I started watching sometime in the first season!) is that preparing for the unexpected comes with the territory. It's just that some do it better than others LOL


----------



## icowden (27 Apr 2021)

So what do we think about the "sprint" race idea for qualifying? Work of Genius or worst idea in the history of bad ideas?


----------



## Phaeton (27 Apr 2021)

icowden said:


> So what do we think about the "sprint" race idea for qualifying? Work of Genius or worst idea in the history of bad ideas?


I thought all the teams had rejected the idea.
What decides the grid of the sprint race, the finishing result of the previous race, the position in the current championship? If it's the former 1 bad race could turn into a whole session of pain if it were adopted.
Under current rules once they have qualified they are in Parc fermé what happens if they sustain damage?
As overtaking is almost impossible at most circuits why do they think they will be able to overtake in a sprint race?
I think it will allow more Bottas/Russell moments, where a desperate driver is trying to push forward
If Hamilton/Verstappen are out front then it's not going to affect them, they will go & hide, but I can see it resulting in a rolling roadblock in the race for instance if a Haas had a good sprint race it would just hold cars up.
Personally I think it's just a gimmick, but if they don't try they'll never know


----------



## icowden (27 Apr 2021)

Phaeton said:


> What decides the grid of the sprint race, the finishing result of the previous race, the position in the current championship?



According to the Beeb, there will be 1st practice (2 types of tyre only), then a sprint qualifying session on Friday (softs only), 2nd practice (one set of tyres only) then sprint qualifying race (2 sets of tyres, no pit stop required, 1/3rd full race distance). Then the main race each team will have 2 remaining sets of new tyres with free choice for the start.

Apparently they are going to try it at Silverstone, then Italy on 10-12 September. 3rd race yet to be decided (was to be Brazil but they are having some corona issues)


----------



## Bonefish Blues (27 Apr 2021)

I have absolutely no understanding of F1 any more, I've concluded.

I shall be applying for a role in the FIA forthwith 😊


----------



## raleighnut (27 Apr 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> I have absolutely no understanding of F1 any more, I've concluded.
> 
> I shall be applying for a role in the FIA forthwith 😊


You sound overqualified.


----------



## Beebo (27 Apr 2021)

icowden said:


> So what do we think about the "sprint" race idea for qualifying? Work of Genius or worst idea in the history of bad ideas?


Seems pointless. Too much risk with little reward. 
what problem is it trying to solve?

Ive seen suggestions that the lower teams may just do one lap and pull into the pits. They have very little chance of improving their grid place and don’t want to risk damage for the main race.


----------



## Phaeton (27 Apr 2021)

Beebo said:


> Seems pointless. Too much risk with little reward.


Possibly


Beebo said:


> what problem is it trying to solve?


That is a very good question, I suspect it's about money to the event holder & F1, they think it will draw in bigger crowds, making it a fuller weekend which means they can charge even more than the stupidly high prices now



Beebo said:


> Ive seen suggestions that the lower teams may just do one lap and pull into the pits. They have very little chance of improving their grid place and don’t want to risk damage for the main race.


That's an interesting view, I would have thought it would be the other way around, you have a charger like Russell who if he started in the top 10 maybe able to stay there, so if in a sprint race he could get up along side, Hamilton, Bottas, Verstappen, Perez or even Leclerc, Sainz, would they make it too hard for him to pass, he's nothing to lose, if he has an accident he'll start at the back, so no difference to him.


----------



## figbat (27 Apr 2021)

Beebo said:


> Ive seen suggestions that the lower teams may just do one lap and pull into the pits. They have very little chance of improving their grid place and don’t want to risk damage for the main race.


I suspect that will attract penalties - IIRC they are obliged to compete unless there’s a safety reason to retire.


----------



## Phaeton (27 Apr 2021)

Just read exactly how it will be done, it's all about the commercials, normally Friday is just for F1 geeks, but if there is 'proper' qualifying they are hoping more non geeks will want to go, the usual crowd will go on Saturday as there will now be a race not just qualifying & Sunday will be as normal. That is apart from the cars they've not been able to rebuild after having an accident in the sprint race.


----------



## icowden (24 May 2021)

Anyone watch Monaco? Or are you all still asleep?


----------



## matticus (24 May 2021)

icowden said:


> Anyone watch Monaco? Or are you all still asleep?


I still can't believe no-one crashed! Bottas was the only DNF ... with a bu99ered wheel-nut. Could only happen to him!

And the director cut away from the only exciting passing action (based on the highlights prog anyway); well, of COURSE a pit-stop is more exciting!

(now can I go back to sleep?)


----------



## figbat (24 May 2021)

W


matticus said:


> I still can't believe no-one crashed! Bottas was the only DNF ... with a bu99ered wheel-nut. Could only happen to him!
> 
> And the director cut away from the only exciting passing action (based on the highlights prog anyway); well, of COURSE a pit-stop is more exciting!
> 
> (now can I go back to sleep?)


Well you might argue that Leclerc crashed.  Apparently Bottas's wheel is STILL on the car and will need disassembling at the factory. May or may not be true, but the internet said it was.

It was a bit of a snooze-fest though.


----------



## glasgowcyclist (24 May 2021)

Not sure this warrants a separate thread: Max Mosely has died.

Max Mosley: Privacy campaigner and ex-motorsport boss dies at 81 - BBC News


----------



## Jody (24 May 2021)

icowden said:


> Anyone watch Monaco? Or are you all still asleep?



I "watched" it on x30 playback. I was going to rewind it if I saw a position change. Glad I watched on x30 as there was no action other than VET having a run up the hill beside Gasly.

Personally I think it's time to be binned from the calendar as last year proved there are so many good tracks out there.


----------



## Reynard (24 May 2021)

OTOH if you rewind to the Formula E race a fortnight ago on the same circuit, it was an absolute cracker. Plenty of overtaking including Evans on Da Costa on the run up to Massenet, and cars being able to run nose to tail and sometimes three wide.

The circuit is tight, but so is any street circuit. The real problem with Monaco is the F1 cars themselves. I've noticed over the years that as aero efficiency etc has improved (in no small thanks due to wind tunnels and computational fluid dynamics) the cars are less and less capable of running closely, and if they can't run closely together, then no hope in hell of an overtake unless someone makes a mistake or has a mechanical.

And it's not just Monaco - Barcelona and Hungary give rise to the same problem, other circuits less so, but it's still there. Hopefully the new rules will address that, but likely not. DRS was also singularly ineffective at Monaco. Which pretty well much proves that without DRS, you won't get much overtaking elsewhere either...

Formula E has far more durable tyres and a lot less downforce than F1 cars, and that's where the difference lies.


----------



## Phaeton (24 May 2021)

The current modern F1 cars are 2 metres wide, that's just silly, although I dislike Formula E due to the Stock Car antics of the drivers it was a better race, there were genuine overtakes, as @Reynard says up to Massenet, think there was also one coming out of the tunnel, which used to be a favourite for F1 cars, but no longer. I can see as a driver why they love it, threading the car through the barriers, the bonus of sleeping in their own beds & not being caught in somebody else's. But for the 'real' fans not the glitterati it's a bore, once the first corner has been decided that's the end off it, although RB did well with Perez.

I'm still in too minds as to whether Verstappen is a totally phenomenal driver, or the RB is so difficult to drive as Perez still hasn't got the better of it, although it has been developed to compliment Verstappens driving style.


----------



## FishFright (24 May 2021)

Does anyone watch the racing British Automobile Racing Club 's youtube channel ?

Club / national level races with a very simple presentation but there's some cracking racing 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZf3wEugCbSW3GX9HvjPmRQ


----------



## Reynard (24 May 2021)

Phaeton said:


> The current modern F1 cars are 2 metres wide, that's just silly, although I dislike Formula E due to the Stock Car antics of the drivers it was a better race, there were genuine overtakes, as @Reynard says up to Massenet, think there was also one coming out of the tunnel, which used to be a favourite for F1 cars, but no longer.



In some ways, Formula E reminds me muchly of the Supertouring era of the BTCC; if someone else is paying, who cares how many cars they bend... 



> I can see as a driver why they love it, threading the car through the barriers, the bonus of sleeping in their own beds & not being caught in somebody else's.







> I'm still in too minds as to whether Verstappen is a totally phenomenal driver, or the RB is so difficult to drive as Perez still hasn't got the better of it, although it has been developed to compliment Verstappens driving style.



I think the fact the car massively compliments Verstappen has a lot to do with it. Much the same way that Honda builds their MotoGP bikes to favour Marc Marquez.


----------



## icowden (24 May 2021)

Phaeton said:


> The current modern F1 cars are 2 metres wide, that's just silly, although I dislike Formula E due to the Stock Car antics of the drivers it was a better race, there were genuine overtakes



Which is another reason that there *are* overtakes. Formula E mark 2 cars are 1.7m wide. SO that's 60cm of track space more than F1. In Monaco that's substantial. It's just boring when you know that even a driver like Hamilton has no chance of passing the car in front unless they wave him past. Any other track and you know he would have been past Gasly in a few laps. 

The commentators even had to resort to "well, of course this is a track that takes huge concentration, so we might see some excitement towards the end of the race...." when the reality is that the car in the front effectively controls the pace, ensure the tyres don't wear too much and no-one is going to put a foot wrong unless it rains.

It's a long way away from Fangio in the 50s when the cars were about 1.4m wide and the top speed was about 80mph, and yet the track has barely changed.


----------



## icowden (24 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> I think the fact the car massively compliments Verstappen has a lot to do with it. Much the same way that Honda builds their MotoGP bikes to favour Marc Marquez.



Isn't that going to be true of most teams with an established leader though? I'd be surprised if development of the Mercedes wasn't driven more from Hamilton's data, style and requirements than Bottas.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (24 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> I think the fact the car massively compliments Verstappen has a lot to do with it.


I never had him down as particularly insecure.


----------



## Jenkins (24 May 2021)

FishFright said:


> Does anyone watch the racing British Automobile Racing Club 's youtube channel ?
> 
> Club / national level races with a very simple presentation but there's some cracking racing
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZf3wEugCbSW3GX9HvjPmRQ


I've watched a few, as well as attending in person - they do some excellent club series in association with the CTCRC. Have a look at the upcoming Bank Holiday Monday's meeting at Donington Park for example.


----------



## Reynard (24 May 2021)

icowden said:


> Isn't that going to be true of most teams with an established leader though? I'd be surprised if development of the Mercedes wasn't driven more from Hamilton's data, style and requirements than Bottas.



Yeah... But in some teams there is a much bigger disparity than in others. Of course, we can only observe and draw conclusions from what we see - we don't know what's been put down on the contractual side of things.


----------



## figbat (25 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> Yeah... But in some teams there is a much bigger disparity than in others. Of course, we can only observe and draw conclusions from what we see - we don't know what's been put down on the contractual side of things.


At least Bottas can run at the front sometimes and be a help to the team strategically and with championship points. Red Bull have a problem with number 2 drivers who simply can't do much to help and I believe it is a systematic problem of the team - they keep shuffling drivers in and out and claiming "he'll get up to speed" before firing them for the next one; they perhaps need a good, hard look at how they develop and bring in drivers vs how the team and car are setup. Leclerc didn't need much time to outpace a Ferrari built around Vettel.


----------



## Phaeton (25 May 2021)

figbat said:


> At least Bottas can run at the front sometimes and be a help to the team strategically and with championship points. Red Bull have a problem with number 2 drivers who simply can't do much to help and I believe it is a systematic problem of the team - they keep shuffling drivers in and out and claiming "he'll get up to speed" before firing them for the next one; they perhaps need a good, hard look at how they develop and bring in drivers vs how the team and car are setup. Leclerc didn't need much time to outpace a Ferrari built around Vettel.


Which was sort of my point, but if you are RB you are faced with a dilemma, currently you have a driver that can potentially be crowned World Driver Championship, as the car has been 100% tailored to him, but then you have no chance of the World manufacturers title as nobody else can drive the car in support, OR do you modify the car in such a way as to not win the Drivers championship, but possibly the manufactures, by having 2 cars constantly in the high points. Ricciardo left RB for exactly that reason, Marko & Horner openly admitted they were building the team around Verstappen to the determent of all other drivers, they are now reaping what they started to sow a few years ago. The only chance they have is to find another driver whose 'style' is akin to Verstappens & hope they can learn the extra bit needed. They may have found their man in Tsunoda but they are now unwilling to put him straight into the RB, I'm not convince Perez can tame the RB or they can develop 2 different cars alongside each other.


----------



## matticus (25 May 2021)

I don't think a "Verstappen" car is completely undriveable for everyone else. It's probably more psychological than anything else.

If you had a driver of equal talent in the 2nd car, then car setup/design could make enough difference that Max would expect to come out on top over a season; but I think the 2nd drivers we are talking about are all a step behind Verstappen in ability.

IMHO!


----------



## Jody (25 May 2021)

Yet all the second drivers suddenly start performing again when not racing for RB. It's either developed too far towards Max or there is so much psychological pressure from the DR that they can't perform.

I'm leaning towards the first option, especially as he has a performance clause allowing him to be released from this contract if he can't compete for the championship in 2021


----------



## Reynard (25 May 2021)

Jody said:


> Yet all the second drivers suddenly start performing again when not racing for RB. It's either developed too far towards Max or there is so much psychological pressure from the DR that they can't perform.
> 
> I'm leaning towards the first option, especially as he has a performance clause allowing him to be released from this contract if he can't compete for the championship in 2021



Actually, it's more the latter, although the former is a factor as well.

The vast majority of the grid are more or less of equal driving ability. The real difference happens in the drivers' heads and in the general team environment.

Maybe it's serendipity, but last night I was looking through an old stash of articles I'd written back in the day, and one of them was on exactly this particular topic, based on a very enlightening interview with a team owner.


----------



## Reynard (25 May 2021)

Phaeton said:


> Which was sort of my point, but if you are RB you are faced with a dilemma, currently you have a driver that can potentially be crowned World Driver Championship, as the car has been 100% tailored to him, but then you have no chance of the World manufacturers title as nobody else can drive the car in support, OR do you modify the car in such a way as to not win the Drivers championship, but possibly the manufactures, by having 2 cars constantly in the high points. Ricciardo left RB for exactly that reason, Marko & Horner openly admitted they were building the team around Verstappen to the determent of all other drivers, they are now reaping what they started to sow a few years ago. The only chance they have is to find another driver whose 'style' is akin to Verstappens & hope they can learn the extra bit needed. They may have found their man in Tsunoda but they are now unwilling to put him straight into the RB, I'm not convince Perez can tame the RB or they can develop 2 different cars alongside each other.



Or you end up in a Mansell-Piquet or Prost-Senna situation...


----------



## Reynard (25 May 2021)

figbat said:


> At least Bottas can run at the front sometimes and be a help to the team strategically and with championship points. Red Bull have a problem with number 2 drivers who simply can't do much to help and I believe it is a systematic problem of the team - they keep shuffling drivers in and out and claiming "he'll get up to speed" before firing them for the next one; they perhaps need a good, hard look at how they develop and bring in drivers vs how the team and car are setup. Leclerc didn't need much time to outpace a Ferrari built around Vettel.



And now Sainz is doing a good job of outperforming Leclerc...

As the Ferrari team leader, you're under more pressure than most. The Italian press do not take kindly to lack of performance.


----------



## matticus (25 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> Or you end up in a Mansell-Piquet or Prost-Senna situation...


you beat me to it!
I think most team owners get stuck in a dilemma - they want competitive drivers, but they want them to play nicely. 

It's a simple requirement: just choose two drivers who are in - say - the top 5 in natural ability, and also perfect team-players, not egotistical rsss-oles.
Simples! And on spare weekends they can play with the fleet of flying pigs ...

In practice because WDC matters more than the Constructors, most current teams actually go all in on Driver#1. But then they overthink Driver#2 selection as they want a _competitive _driver who is happy to _play 2nd fiddle_. [See above]


----------



## Jody (25 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> Actually, it's more the latter, although the former is a factor as well.



I could accept that if it was a junior driver coming through the ranks but to feck a seasoned driver like Checo's head up that quickly would take some doing. 

If that's what's happening then there is a strong case to get rid of the DR if they want both titles, rather than keep firing No2 driver.


----------



## Reynard (25 May 2021)

matticus said:


> In practice because WDC matters more than the Constructors, most current teams actually go all in on Driver#1. But then they overthink Driver#2 selection as they want a _competitive _driver who is happy to _play 2nd fiddle_. [See above]



Not strictly true. Revenue directed towards the teams is directly related to the points they accrue in the constructors championship.

From a fan's perspective, it's all about the drivers. From a team's perspective (mostly) it's the constructors championship that really matters.


----------



## Reynard (25 May 2021)

Jody said:


> I could accept that if it was a junior driver coming through the ranks but to feck a seasoned driver like Checo's head up that quickly would take some doing.
> 
> If that's what's happening then there is a strong case to get rid of the DR if they want both titles, rather than keep firing No2 driver.



It's easier than you think. Drivers rely on confidence. The easiest way to dent that is to make them question themselves and their ability. It's a vicious circle, really. Once you get into that loop, it's hard to get out of it.


----------



## Jody (25 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> It's easier than you think. Drivers rely on confidence. The easiest way to dent that is to make them question themselves and their ability. It's a vicious circle, really. Once you get into that loop, it's hard to get out of it.



Maybe get rid of the gas lighting Austrian then and the loop won't start. Support the drivers rather than destroy them


----------



## Phaeton (25 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> Or you end up in a Mansell-Piquet or Prost-Senna situation...


Depends if you think that is a bad thing, Rosberg-Hamilton was the last incarnation when Rosberg actually decided to put his mind in gear.


Jody said:


> I could accept that if it was a junior driver coming through the ranks but to feck a seasoned driver like Checo's head up that quickly would take some doing.


But you don't know what games Verstappen is playing, he clearly wants a No 2 driver, granted one that can support him, but no way does he want one that can beat him.


----------



## Phaeton (25 May 2021)

Jody said:


> Maybe get rid of the gas lighting Austrian then and the loop won't start. Support the drivers rather than destroy them


But what if he took all his money with him, No team


----------



## Jody (25 May 2021)

Phaeton said:


> But what if he took all his money with him, No team



It's Dietrich's money. Marko doesn't own Rebull.


----------



## Jody (25 May 2021)

Phaeton said:


> But you don't know what games Verstappen is playing, he clearly wants a No 2 driver, granted one that can support him, but no way does he want one that can beat him.



Max will be playing games alright but I don't think he is the reason all the other drivers are failing.


----------



## Reynard (25 May 2021)

Jody said:


> Maybe get rid of the gas lighting Austrian then and the loop won't start. Support the drivers rather than destroy them



Alas, it's a reality of motorsport that a good number of the people involved are fairly unpleasant characters. They don't get to where they are by playing nice.


----------



## Reynard (25 May 2021)

Jody said:


> Max will be playing games alright but I don't think he is the reason all the other drivers are failing.



The first rule of motorsport (for drivers) is to beat your team mate, because the driver in the garage next door and driving the same car as you is the enemy. And beating him (or her) includes playing mind games and bullying in order to get the edge.


----------



## Reynard (25 May 2021)

Phaeton said:


> But you don't know what games Verstappen is playing, he clearly wants a No 2 driver, granted one that can support him, but no way does he want one that can beat him.



Ayrton Senna was the master of getting a subservient #2 who wasn't fast enough to beat him; Johnny Cecotto, Johnny Dumfries, Satoru Nakajima, Gerhard Berger, Damon Hill... When he didn't (Prost and Warwick) he threw the toys out of the pram.

This type of driver is so used to being told how wonderful they are, that they don't want to be upstaged at any cost. They don't want to show weakness (being beaten by a team mate) because it reflects badly on them.


----------



## Jody (25 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> And beating him (or her) includes playing mind games and bullying in order to get the edge.



There are plenty of drivers that don't need to resort to underhand tactics or mind games. 



Reynard said:


> Alas, it's a reality of motorsport that a good number of the people involved are fairly unpleasant characters. They don't get to where they are by playing nice.



I'm not denying that. Just pointing out RB may be better off without Marko.


----------



## Reynard (25 May 2021)

Jody said:


> There are plenty of drivers that don't need to resort to underhand tactics or mind games.



There are some, yes. But on the whole, it's not what I've seen in my time involved with the sport - mind games come as part of the territory. As I said upthread, the drivers on the grid are broadly of a very similar driving ability. Racing drivers are largely selfish people and will do whatever it takes to win / be better than their team mate etc.


----------



## Phaeton (25 May 2021)

Jody said:


> It's Dietrich's money. Marko doesn't own Rebull.


You are of course correct, not sure where my mind was there for a moment.


----------



## Salad Dodger (25 May 2021)

You know how an original sized mini looks when compared to a current generation one? That's how an F1 car of, say, 20 years ago looks compared to a current one.
Then add in all the problems with aero for cars running close behind each other, and passing at Monaco is just about impossible. 
I know it's "the jewel in the crown" of the F1 season, but if it were up to me it would be ditched immediately. And the cars would be altered to make them more skittish and with less aero. And shorter. And narrower. And all pit to car communication would be banned, except for safety messages from organisers. And the cars would have proper, noisy engines. Oh, and no monitoring of the cars vital stats during the race, so multiple race simulations can be played out by computer to decide race strategy. And finally, proper gravel traps on the outside of corners, right up to the edge of the tarmac, so cars putting wheels off the course risk much more than just having their lap time taken away. 

Rant over. Thank you.


----------



## Cerdic (26 May 2021)

The problem of boring, processional races at Monaco is not new, though. People have been complaining about it since the 1980s, if not longer. Wasn't it Senna who said that driving an F1 car around Monaco is like trying to fly a helicopter round your living room? That's why people watch this particular race!

Of course, there have been interesting Monaco GPs. But it usually involves crashes and safety cars. Sadly this year was not one of them...


----------



## matticus (26 May 2021)

It has pros-and cons: I'd rather watch a boring procession round Monaco than round Hungary.
But I wouldn't want any more "Monacos" on the calendar; part of the attraction is the uniqueness.

Clearly the series could use more overtaking at *every* race, and car design rules seem to have a big part to play. (Imagine if we didn't have DRS??)


----------



## icowden (26 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> The vast majority of the grid are more or less of equal driving ability. The real difference happens in the drivers' heads and in the general team environment.



I think it's not necessarily about the ability but the style.

From Perez:


> “I learned more about Max’s driving style and how the car has to be driven to extract the maximum from it,” said Perez.
> “I think that was the biggest learning, I know what balance I need from the car throughout the weekend.



In other words the Red Bull is designed to suit the way that Max drives - not the skill with which he drives, but the way that he drives. The Mercedes favours Hamilton over Bottas because they will have slightly different driving styles - the way that Hamilton feels the car and makes the tyres last longer. Ricciardo's style is very different from Max, favouring late braking for example, which the RB may not be as easy to set up for.

The best drivers are those that can adapt their style to the car they are driving, or where the style is similar to the lead driver - hence Russell doing superbly well in the Mercedes suggests that he is either very adaptable or has a similar style to Lewis.


----------



## Reynard (26 May 2021)

icowden said:


> I think it's not necessarily about the ability but the style.



Which is why I said "more or less" 

There is more than one way to skin a cat - or get a fast lap time, after all... (although I wouldn't want to try that with either of mine, I'll get shredded!  )


----------



## Reynard (26 May 2021)

Cerdic said:


> The problem of boring, processional races at Monaco is not new, though. People have been complaining about it since the 1980s, if not longer. Wasn't it Senna who said that driving an F1 car around Monaco is like trying to fly a helicopter round your living room? That's why people watch this particular race!
> 
> Of course, there have been interesting Monaco GPs. But it usually involves crashes and safety cars. Sadly this year was not one of them...



Senna was never that eloquent. 

It was Nelson Piquet - and he said that driving around Monaco was like trying to ride a bicycle in your living room. 

(Not that I'd ever want to try that in my teeny, tiny cottage...)


----------



## Cerdic (26 May 2021)

Ha! At least I got the right era!

Mind you, I expect that F1 drivers have considerably larger living rooms than most of us...


----------



## FishFright (27 May 2021)

matticus said:


> It has pros-and cons: I'd rather watch a boring procession round Monaco than round Hungary.
> But I wouldn't want any more "Monacos" on the calendar; part of the attraction is the uniqueness.
> 
> Clearly the series could use more overtaking at *every* race, and car design rules seem to have a big part to play. (Imagine if we didn't have DRS??)



I despise the Don't Race System and preferred when there were fewer passes but were , for the most part, more genuine.

I love the Monaco races despite it tending to be more processional as you see the pilots driving at their very best. But I do agree there should only be one like that .


----------



## icowden (21 Jun 2021)

Interesting race at the somewhat psychedelic Paul Ricard today with Mercedes snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. 
Made for an exciting race though (for once).


----------



## Reynard (21 Jun 2021)

Some pretty good Formula E action from Puebla this weekend as well.


----------



## dave r (21 Jun 2021)

icowden said:


> Interesting race at the somewhat psychedelic Paul Ricard today with Mercedes snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
> Made for an exciting race though (for once).



Mercedes out thought by Red Bull, they rolled the dice with the extra pit stop and it came off, when Max caught Lewis he had no tyres left and could only watch Max go past, all caused by higher than expected tyre wear, highly entertaining.


----------



## dave r (21 Jun 2021)

Interesting 

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/...k7pcq6-hwM_xCVGZ24voHnCkxim8z1zXV1n-nxg-iSAM4


----------



## Reynard (21 Jun 2021)

It makes sense. 

Having a good "rear gunner" doesn't give Mercedes the elastic in terms of strategy and takes the pressure off Max. Which is what Kvyat, Gasly and Albon were unable to do.


----------



## classic33 (8 Jul 2021)

Carlos Reutemann dies, aged 79

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/57757338?utm_source=pardalcarioca.com


----------



## BrumJim (18 Jul 2021)

Ignoring the first lap incident, a great race at Silverstone today.


----------



## Cerdic (18 Jul 2021)

Yep. Felt sorry for It Is I, Leclerc. But Hamilton is like the Terminator...


----------



## carpiste (1 Aug 2021)

Well looking forward to this one. After the last race and all the shenanigans it`ll be an interesting start. Hamilton loves the rain so hopefully he can get to the first corner incident free and make progress without incident. Hope he keeps the boo boys quiet


----------



## carpiste (1 Aug 2021)

Well Valteri blew it but Hamilton got the start he would have dreamed of!


----------



## carpiste (1 Aug 2021)

Mercedes messed up big time! Can`t believe Hamilton was allowed to restart on his own on intermediates when everyone else started on slicks! 1st place to 14! in one lap!!!


----------



## figbat (1 Aug 2021)

Great race in the end, and a good result. About time Alpine caught a break and Vettel has been showing some form too. Lewis’s recovery after an unbelievably stupid call at the start was fantastic, with some great racing against Fernando.

Bottas has invented a new mashup sport - F1 snooker. Potted the blue at the first corner.


----------



## carpiste (1 Aug 2021)

Ocon did great but he owes his win to Alonso. His blocking was superb. Bottas deserves his 5 place penalty on the next race and lucky it isn`t more! Great recovery from Lewis after the debacle at the start! Still can`t believe Mercedes could make such a bad error!


----------



## matticus (1 Aug 2021)

Marshal killed at Brands yesterday.


----------



## dave r (1 Aug 2021)

Nice to see Ocon getting his first win, excellent racing between Hamilton and Alonso.


----------



## Reynard (1 Aug 2021)

Bonkers F1 race for sure.

The BTCC meeting from Oulton was equally bonkers. Every race had a safety car, only two weren't red flagged. One race was red flagged twice. My mate RJN was doing the TV commentary, and he had to have the patience of a saint today...  Some big hits out there today, especially in the Minis and Touring Cars, glad to see all the drivers come out unscathed.

RJN did mention Paul Warwick during the commentary for the third BTCC race - it was the 30th anniversary of Paul's fatal crash at the Knickerbrook on Wednesday of last week. Brought a tear to my eye, that did...


----------



## Beebo (1 Aug 2021)

Vettle has been disqualified for a lack of fuel so Hamilton goes 2nd. 
Harsh


----------



## Reynard (1 Aug 2021)

Beebo said:


> Vettle has been disqualified for a lack of fuel so Hamilton goes 2nd.
> Harsh



No. It's the rules.

They have to be able to take a litre sample from the tank post race. They only got 300ml. Cut and shut, I'm afraid.

Feel sorry for Seb because he drove a blinder.


----------



## Beebo (1 Aug 2021)

Reynard said:


> No. It's the rules.
> 
> They have to be able to take a litre sample from the tank post race. They only got 300ml. Cut and shut, I'm afraid.
> 
> Feel sorry for Seb because he drove a blinder.


Im sure they could sample the 300ml if they wanted to. 
I know the rules are the rules and the FIA don’t want cars running out of fuel on the track but it is a technical infringement, not really the drivers fault.


----------



## Reynard (1 Aug 2021)

Beebo said:


> Im sure they could sample the 300ml if they wanted to.
> I know the rules are the rules and the FIA don’t want cars running out of fuel on the track but it is a technical infringement, not really the drivers fault.



Yes, they could.

But mandating a specific minimum volume stops the teams setting up the cars to run rich and extract more power. Increased fuel flow was how Ferrari were cheating year before last. (I'm sure they were cooling the fuel to get more in the tank too to account for the increased flow rate, but because it was all brushed under the carpet by the FIA, it's impossible to prove conclusively.)


----------



## classic33 (1 Aug 2021)

Beebo said:


> Vettle has been disqualified for a lack of fuel so Hamilton goes 2nd.
> Harsh


Aston Martin have lodged an appeal.


----------



## Jenkins (1 Aug 2021)

matticus said:


> Marshal killed at Brands yesterday.


I was there spectating and saw the accident from South Bank. Despite knowing one of their colleagues was involved, the professionalism of the rescue & medical teams was exemplary. RIP to the man in orange & condolances to his family.


----------



## icowden (6 Aug 2021)

carpiste said:


> Still can`t believe Mercedes could make such a bad error!



The suggestion seems to be that it was Lewis's error. Merc couldn't tell him on his out lap without incurring a penalty (although it seems to me that the penalty might have been better than losing position to the back of the field).


----------



## figbat (6 Aug 2021)

Well the alternative was to go straight in... to the first pitbox in the pitlane and then have to sit there whilst the whole field came past and effectively end up last anyway. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.


----------



## Reynard (6 Aug 2021)

figbat said:


> Well the alternative was to go straight in... to the first pitbox in the pitlane and then have to sit there whilst the whole field came past and effectively end up last anyway. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.



I think that was the reason. Otherwise they'd have been done for an unsafe release if he'd tried to squeeze out. Usually it's a big advantage to have the first garage, but sometimes it's the opposite.


----------



## matticus (6 Aug 2021)

Aha - thank you, i hadn't realised that was the problem.

But would he have ended up _last_? Would the situation unfold in reverse as they exited? Merc would get the jump on the car that pits in front (they have about 2.5 seconds to accelerate past and thus block that car in - I think that's enough?)
I'm just thinking out loud here, I assume someone somewhere in F1-fandomworld has worked this out already!


----------



## figbat (6 Aug 2021)

Lewis would have got to the pit, stopped for 2-3 seconds, then had to sit there as the whole field passed him. This extra time stationary would have given the other teams the time they needed to stop, change wheels, perhaps have to also wait a bit (but not as long), and get out again. Effectively each team had an incremental time added to their stop, with the time being proportional to their garage position in the pit. No doubt some would have squeezed out into a small gap in the traffic, and George did a cheeky move to try and gain places at the head of the queue, so maybe he wouldn't have been plumb last but it wouldn't have been much better.


----------



## Reynard (6 Aug 2021)

matticus said:


> Aha - thank you, i hadn't realised that was the problem.
> 
> But would he have ended up _last_? Would the situation unfold in reverse as they exited? Merc would get the jump on the car that pits in front (they have about 2.5 seconds to accelerate past and thus block that car in - I think that's enough?)
> I'm just thinking out loud here, I assume someone somewhere in F1-fandomworld has worked this out already!



Pretty well much.

You've got to bear in mind that a live pit lane is a crowded space and not a terribly safe place to be. You can't put the mechanics - or anyone else at risk, and it only takes one mistake. That's why there are all the rules and regs about unsafe releases, speed limits etc.

He would have had to be held until the whole field had filtered through, and then some of the later stoppers would definitely have had the chance to leave the pits quicker because they were further down the row of garages.


----------



## matticus (6 Aug 2021)

Reynard said:


> You've got to bear in mind that a live pit lane is a crowded space and not a terribly safe place to be. You can't put the mechanics - or anyone else at risk, and it only takes one mistake. That's why there are all the rules and regs about unsafe releases, speed limits etc.


Of course; but it's not all "After you Claud" - everyone gets out as fast as they can, but within the rules. Same as when any 2 cars come in together during a more typical race.

I still don't see him ending up last - or can you define "_pretty well much_" for me?  I always see them getting the jump on the car pitting immediately in front - tell me why not, in your opinion.
Then we can look at the no-doubt chaotic situation further down the pit-lane. That's harder to predict, _for sure _...


----------



## Reynard (6 Aug 2021)

matticus said:


> Of course; but it's not all "After you Claud" - everyone gets out as fast as they can, but within the rules. Same as when any 2 cars come in together during a more typical race.
> 
> I still don't see him ending up last - or can you define "_pretty well much_" for me?  I always see them getting the jump on the car pitting immediately in front - tell me why not, in your opinion.
> Then we can look at the no-doubt chaotic situation further down the pit-lane. That's harder to predict, _for sure _...



If he'd pitted, he'd have been at the front of the queue. And because everyone was running nose to tail on the warm-up lap and thence diving into the pits, he would have to be held in his box until everyone had gone past. As you go down the pit lane, the time the driver would have to be held would decrease, giving those at the far end a bigger advantage. And then you've also got the jeopardy of double stacking the cars, and the fact that garage order and grid order aren't the same.

When you're fighting for a championship, imho leaving him out was the best thing to do, as it takes out what is effectively a complete lottery. Fewer things to go wrong.

N.B. I've seen first hand what can go wrong in a pit lane when someone misjudges it. Fortunately no one was hurt that time, but it ain't pretty...


----------



## matticus (6 Aug 2021)

Reynard said:


> When you're fighting for a championship, imho *leaving him out was the best thing to do,* as it takes out what is effectively a complete lottery. Fewer things to go wrong.


I'm not disputing that 
I'm disputing 
- the assertion that he would definitely come out last*. 
- and I'd dispute that it was a complete lottery! Given enough time, people, compooters etc, they could definitely model the most likely running order after everyone rejoined. Perhaps not _practicable _in the time available - which would justify the team's call.


*Actually I'm not sure either way - but I haven't been convinced that it is the case ...


----------



## Reynard (6 Aug 2021)

matticus said:


> I'm not disputing that
> I'm disputing
> - the assertion that he would definitely come out last*.
> - and I'd dispute that it was a complete lottery! Given enough time, people, compooters etc, they could definitely model the most likely running order after everyone rejoined. Perhaps not _practicable _in the time available - which would justify the team's call.
> ...



Well, maybe second to last, given that Bottas would've had to have waited behind him if they double stacked...

The way I see it (and this was also mentioned by several commentators / analysts, both at the time, and then in subsequent motorsport press) is that because he'd have had to sit in his pit box until everyone else bar his team mate had gone past, he and Valtteri would have had by far the longest pit stops of the whole field. It's not just the pit in and pit out - which is the same for everyone near enough - but also the time spent stationary. And when everyone dives into the pits at the same time...

And if there's one thing I learnt in a dozen years involved in motorsports, it was that if it can go wrong, it will go wrong. You can keep things clean, but there's no guarantee that everyone else will.

Besides, Raikkonen took Mazepin out during the pit lane chaos on that formation lap...


----------



## Beebo (29 Aug 2021)

Will Hamilton have the balls to let Russell be his wingman?


----------



## classic33 (29 Aug 2021)

Beebo said:


> Will Hamilton have the balls to let Russell be his wingman?


No.


----------



## FishFright (29 Aug 2021)

Beebo said:


> Will Hamilton have the balls to let Russell be his wingman?



He's too late in his career to call the shots on this one , Mercedes need to be thinking of the future.


----------



## Jody (29 Aug 2021)

I reckon Russell is already signed as a Merc driver next year. You only have to watch the C4 interview with him to see its open news in the paddock. Same with the awkward ignoring each other and fist bump after quali. If Bottas was next years wing man GR would have had a bigger congratulations.


----------



## Beebo (30 Aug 2021)

I’m not sure anyone is happy about the Spa GP. The organisers were in a difficult position but doing 2 laps just to get a result seems wrong to me.
If that was the final race of the season with Max and Lewis on level points there is no way that anyone would accept that as a reasonable outcome.


----------



## dave r (30 Aug 2021)

Beebo said:


> Will Hamilton have the balls to let Russell be his wingman?



I don't think he'll have any choice.


----------



## dave r (30 Aug 2021)

Beebo said:


> I’m not sure anyone is happy about the Spa GP. The organisers were in a difficult position but doing 2 laps just to get a result seems wrong to me.
> If that was the final race of the season with Max and Lewis on level points there is no way that anyone would accept that as a reasonable outcome.



That was ridicules, it should have been postponed and rerun later in the season, they've got enough gaps with races getting called of.


----------



## icowden (30 Aug 2021)

dave r said:


> That was ridicules, it should have been postponed and rerun later in the season, they've got enough gaps with races getting called of.


I agree. Given that next weekends race is effectively "just down the road ", they could also have run the race today (Monday).


----------



## Bonefish Blues (30 Aug 2021)

The decision will have been financially-driven in some way, I guess


----------



## 400ixl (30 Aug 2021)

icowden said:


> I agree. Given that next weekends race is effectively "just down the road ", they could also have run the race today (Monday).



From a teams perspective, possibly. From a track perspective maybe not as the marshals would mostly be back at work today as it is not a bank holiday in Belgium.

The two laps was clearly commercially driven, but lets hope pressure makes them compensate the fans in some way. Maybe a decent concession against next years event for example.


----------



## Reynard (30 Aug 2021)

The only issue is that you forget that other than the retained FIA officials, the marshals and track staff are all volunteers. Getting them to stay another day may be problematic, and you can't run a meeting safely without the requisite number of marshals and medical personnel on post.

I'll agree though, it was a complete sh*tshow. Michael Masi didn't have the balls to simply call it off - which IMHO would have been better for everyone. This was a complete farce - and it's not the first bad call he's made.

Given the uncertainty of the calendar for later in the year, there will always be a slot available somewhere. I think we won't have heard the last of this.

N.B. In the US, where they don't race on ovals in the rain (too risky), there is always a "rain day" built into the meeting.


----------



## Drago (30 Aug 2021)

Theres another event at the circuit today, so they couldn't delay it by a day.

And in a delicious twist of irony, that race seems likely to be rained off as well


----------



## icowden (31 Aug 2021)

Drago said:


> Theres another event at the circuit today, so they couldn't delay it by a day.
> 
> And in a delicious twist of irony, that race seems likely to be rained off as well



Fair enough, if only there were 6 empty weeks later in the calendar... oh.. hang on...
although it would be more wintery, which might be problematic. Not sure what November / December weather looks like at Spa.


----------



## figbat (31 Aug 2021)

icowden said:


> Not sure what November / December weather looks like at Spa.


I don’t think there’s a studded tyre option is there?


----------



## icowden (31 Aug 2021)

I was thinking that as I typed it and wondering just how low track temperatures would be 
1st October looks available at the moment though...


----------



## Drago (31 Aug 2021)

Its far from satisfactory, but we've all seen football rained off, big rugby matches rained, iced and even snowed off. Sometimes they get resheduled, sometimes that is not possible their sports own governing bodies have to invoke the regulations to create a 'sporting' outcome that fits within the framework of their relevant championship. F1 is in no way unique in this regard.

Considering its an open air sport F1 has done very well for this to be the first in its 70 year history to be lost to that degree.

Its a bummer, but weather happens.

I see the FIA are unhappy - again - with Lewis shooting his mouth off. One wag has observed that if Lewis is worried about fans having their ticket costs refunded he could refund them himself using the money he saved from his private jet VAT dodge...you know, the one where he created an IoM based firm and then leased the plane back to himself for business use only as a tax wheeze, and then stupidly plastered pics of himself on social media showing off and jetting all over the place using it for his own personal use...

He wasn't so vocal complaining about people acting to protect their profits then was he?


----------



## icowden (31 Aug 2021)

Drago said:


> I see the FIA are unhappy - again - with Lewis shooting his mouth off. One wag has observed that if Lewis is worried about fans having their ticket costs refunded he could refund them himself using the money he saved from his private jet VAT dodge...you know, the one where he created an IoM based firm and then leased the plane back to himself for business use only as a tax wheeze, and then stupidly plastered pics of himself on social media showing off and jetting all over the place using it for his own personal use...



The problem with these "wags" is that they seem to think that Lewis does his own accounts whereas most drivers at his level employ a professional accountancy firm to manage their money. Quite how on earth they think he would find time to do his own accounts and research tax loopholes as well as driving in Formula 1, I just don't know.

The same is true of Jimmy Carr and the explosive revelation that he was using an accountant.

Of course these revelations were highly publicised by Rupert Murdoch and the Barclay Brothers amongst others - paragons of virtue who would would NEVER seek to keep their accounts offshore and dodge tax...

What? Oh....


----------



## Bonefish Blues (31 Aug 2021)

I've mellowed towards Lewis tbh. There's still elements of bell-endery, but overall I think he's OK


----------



## matticus (31 Aug 2021)

icowden said:


> The problem with these "wags" is that they seem to think that Lewis does his own accounts whereas most drivers at his level employ a professional accountancy firm to manage their money. Quite how on earth they think he would find time to do his own accounts and research tax loopholes as well as driving in Formula 1, I just don't know.


I can't tell how much of this paragraph is sarcasm, so:
irrespective of how he manages his finances, he will know how much he's paid, and roughly how much a private jet costs, and roughly how much tickets to Spa cost.

He also knows how much it cost him to make this (perfectly reasonable) statement about the fans at Spa, and how other people should be re-imbursing them; i.e. exactly zero.


----------



## icowden (31 Aug 2021)

matticus said:


> I can't tell how much of this paragraph is sarcasm, so:
> i



Pretty much all of it 

I get annoyed when people make out that wealthy people know all about the underhand practices of their accountants when I very much suspect that the conversation goes like this...

"OK Lewis - welcome to McLaren - you are going to need an F1 accountant. We'd recommend this firm as most of the other drivers use them."
or
"Hey Lewis - who is doing your accounts? I use these guys. Ok - thanks Jensen..."

I very much doubt that any of them are asking for year end reports, a review of their investment portfolio and to be kept abreast of any tax avoidance schemes.

You are right that it costs Lewis nothing to suggest that fans should be reimbursed, but perhaps he does feel that the people that did take the money might be able to find something down the back of the sofa to enable that.


----------



## matticus (31 Aug 2021)

If Lewis has no obligation to know how/where his money is invested, why should anyone else in F1$World have any obligations beyond their contractual terms?


----------



## Beebo (31 Aug 2021)

If the organisers ran 2 laps just to avoid a refund then that is very poor, but I suspect they ran 2 laps to get a race completed and the refund bit is an unfortunate side issue. 
I dont see how Hamilton’s tax has any involvement here. He doesn’t pay Belgium tax, but does pay considerable UK tax.


----------



## Reynard (31 Aug 2021)

icowden said:


> I was thinking that as I typed it and wondering just how low track temperatures would be
> 1st October looks available at the moment though...



About the same as Silverstone in January...  

They used to run the Belgian GP in late April / early May BITD, but it used to alternate between Zolder and Spa.


----------



## Salad Dodger (31 Aug 2021)

Running 2 laps behind a safety car and declaring it a race, so as to avoid having to refund the poor schmucks who paid good money to see a proper race, is utterly, abhorrently cynical.

In the conditions that prevailed on Sunday, the only right and proper thing to have done would be to cancel and refund tickets. If the circuit owners could not afford to do that then F1 should have stepped in to make up the shortfall. There must be money sloshing around somewhere to meet such a contingency.


----------



## Beebo (1 Sep 2021)

Salad Dodger said:


> In the conditions that prevailed on Sunday, the only right and proper thing to have done would be to cancel and refund tickets. If the circuit owners could not afford to do that then F1 should have stepped in to make up the shortfall. There must be money sloshing around somewhere to meet such a contingency.


I would expect them to have event cancellation insurance for this. 
But once you declare a “race” the insurance won’t pay out.


----------



## matticus (1 Sep 2021)

Beebo said:


> I would expect them to have event cancellation insurance for this.
> But once you declare a “race” the insurance won’t pay out.


We may "expect" it, but is it so? Many businesses take uninsured risks, because the rewards are then greater. (e.g. self-insured fleet vehicles)

I really don't know - it's frustrating not to hear a definitive statement about Spa. Maybe the insurers exerted pressure - who knows??


----------



## Tom B (2 Sep 2021)

So Kimi is calling it quits.. apparently he decided last winter. So that tallies with his lack luster form this year.

According to Crash.net Bottas is expected to be announced to replace him at Alfa.

So that answers the why now timing of Kimis announcement given that Merc have said they want all the pieces in place before they announce what is happening.

Personally I think Bottas at Merc is a bit promise unfulfilled.


----------



## classic33 (2 Sep 2021)

Tom B said:


> *So Kimi is calling it quits...* apparently he decided last winter. So that tallies with his lack luster form this year.
> 
> According to Crash.net Bottas is expected to be announced to replace him at Alfa.
> 
> ...


Finishing with the same team he started with.


----------



## dave r (2 Sep 2021)

Tom B said:


> So Kimi is calling it quits.. apparently he decided last winter. So that tallies with his lack luster form this year.
> 
> According to Crash.net Bottas is expected to be announced to replace him at Alfa.
> 
> ...



Theres also a rumor going around that Alfa Romeo will have Mercedes engines next season so Bottas there makes sense. Bottas has been disappointing, he's been to willing to be the team player, to happy to be Hamilton wing man, I'd rather he'd pushed Hamilton more, he's given him a far to easy ride, lets hope that Russel ruffles his feathers a bit more.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (2 Sep 2021)

dave r said:


> Theres also a rumor going around that Alfa Romeo will have Mercedes engines next season so Bottas there makes sense. Bottas has been disappointing, he's been to willing to be the team player, to happy to be Hamilton wing man, I'd rather he'd pushed Hamilton more, he's given him a far to easy ride, lets hope that Russel ruffles his feathers a bit more.


He tried, he wasn't quick enough, he settled for second. Look at Rosberg - he had to spend a season punting Lewis off in order to beat him. That said, I think, for the first time, there's signs of Lewis's powers beginning to wane, so he'd better win his billionty-seventh this year because it's his best chance.


----------



## icowden (2 Sep 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> That said, I think, for the first time, there's signs of Lewis's powers beginning to wane, so he'd better win his billionty-seventh this year because it's his best chance.



Whilst I think you may be right, the problem is that the Merc isn't quite as good as the Red Bull due to being hamstrung by the regs changes. I wouldn't write off Hamilton for next year though given that it's effectively a full reset. Hamilton has been shown to be quick at learning / adaptable to car changes where some other drivers (e.g. Vettel) are not.

Personally I'm really excited for next year - hopefully there will be some excellent racing.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (2 Sep 2021)

icowden said:


> Whilst I think you may be right, the problem is that the Merc isn't quite as good as the Red Bull due to being hamstrung by the regs changes. I wouldn't write off Hamilton for next year though given that it's effectively a full reset. Hamilton has been shown to be quick at learning / adaptable to car changes where some other drivers (e.g. Vettel) are not.
> 
> Personally I'm really excited for next year - hopefully there will be some excellent racing.


I'm just thinking Hamilton - Russell next year has overtones of Hamilton - Alonso and we know how that turned out.


----------



## icowden (2 Sep 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> I'm just thinking Hamilton - Russell next year has overtones of Hamilton - Alonso and we know how that turned out.



Overtones, but I think reversed, and Hamilton's ego isn't as big as Alonso's. Alonso really couldn't cope with having a junior driver who was as good as him. I think Hamilton is better equipped in that regard. I'd expect some hard racing though, as I don't think George will be as happy as Bottas to sit back.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (2 Sep 2021)

icowden said:


> Overtones, but I think reversed, and Hamilton's ego isn't as big as Alonso's. Alonso really couldn't cope with having a junior driver who was as good as him. I think Hamilton is better equipped in that regard. I'd expect some hard racing though, as I don't think George will be as happy as Bottas to sit back.


It'll be fascinating - as Hamilton maybe begins to wane, and a precociously fast young teammate as company. Toto will have his work cut out, no doubt


----------



## figbat (2 Sep 2021)

Same happened at Ferrari - Vettel was quickly usurped by whipper-snapper Leclerc, although in Hamilton’s case he has had a lifetime of support from Mercedes (initially via McLaren). Funnily enough Vettel was also usurped at Red Bull by Verstappen.

Next year will hinge on who gets the new package right. I suspect there will be some bigger differences across the field until they all copy the best design. Sometimes though the best design is baked into the car and other cars can’t be updated easily.


----------



## Reynard (2 Sep 2021)

If you took Lewis out of the equation, Bottas would probably have picked up at least one world championship. He's good in his own right, but when you're up against one of the best that's ever been...

There were a couple of articles that mentioned Hamilton was suffering from Long Covid, so he's probably not at his peak, both physically and mentally this year.

As for the whole Hamilton v Rosberg needle match, it smacked very much of Mansell v Piquet at Williams in 86 & 87. Piquet was a master of the nasty put-down, and Mansell was so easy to rub up the wrong way.


----------



## icowden (2 Sep 2021)

figbat said:


> Same happened at Ferrari - Vettel was quickly usurped by whipper-snapper Leclerc, although in Hamilton’s case he has had a lifetime of support from Mercedes (initially via McLaren). Funnily enough Vettel was also usurped at Red Bull by Verstappen.



But Vettel also seemed much slower to adapt to the loss of the V8s and the start of the hybrid era. Obviously some of that was the car and reliability but I always had the impression that without the dominant V8 Red Bull, he faded quite quickly.


----------



## icowden (2 Sep 2021)

Reynard said:


> If you took Lewis out of the equation, Bottas would probably have picked up at least one world championship. He's good in his own right, but when you're up against one of the best that's ever been...



At least he can say "I was second for two years running, and at least I was only beaten by Lewis.". 

And then if you look at Lewis's record you see how amazing it is. Never lower than 5th place, 7 world championships, 2 second places out of 13 world championships. I think only Schumacher (not including comeback career), Prost and Senna have that sort of form in the modern era.


----------



## Reynard (2 Sep 2021)

Yeah, it's only when you start crunching the numbers that you see just how good Lewis is. And even when his McLaren was less than stellar, he could still get a damn good tune out of it, getting results that were far better than they had any right to be - *THAT* is the hallmark of a top quality driver. And that seems to be the same this year, as the Red Bull is clearly the better car.

Schumacher is really the one you can compare Lewis to, ideally, in terms of outright results. And also when it came to car reliability. Prior to that, you do have to take into account that you were lucky if you got a dozen finishers in a GP from a grid of 26.

The start to Prost's career was rather iffy - one poor year at McLaren before three seasons at Renault. He should have won the title the title at Renault, but lost out to Piquet. It was only when he went back to McLaren in '84 that things finally clicked. Second in 84, 4th in 87 when arguably Williams had the best car, and WC in 85, 86 and 89. Ferrari was a bust (although watching him wind Mansell up was hilarious), but then WC again in 93 in a Williams.

Senna is a funny one, because he was only truly fast in a car that someone else had worked hard to develop. He couldn't develop a car for toffee. Ruthless and only sometimes a genius, I'd say that the closest analogy to him really, is Vettel.


----------



## Tom B (5 Sep 2021)

Anyone else a bit disappointed with the Zandvoort track?


----------



## Beebo (5 Sep 2021)

50,000 fans cycled to the track. 
Only 2% went by private car. Quite amazing really.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (5 Sep 2021)

Tom B said:


> Anyone else a bit disappointed with the Zandvoort track?


Good for holding processions on.


----------



## Reynard (5 Sep 2021)

I was so enamoured of the Zandvoort race that I ended up scrolling through book and magazine listings on the Bay of E and solving the puzzle of a disappearing race meeting at Brands in 1986 commemorating the opening of the M25.

it was snowed off FYI.


----------



## icowden (5 Sep 2021)

Reynard said:


> I was so enamoured of the Zandvoort race that I ended up scrolling through book and magazine listings on the Bay of E ...


I missed it, but looking at the write up, it doesn't look like I missed much (other than Bottas sticking his fingers up to Merc metaphorically speaking).


----------



## Reynard (5 Sep 2021)

icowden said:


> I missed it, but looking at the write up, it doesn't look like I missed much (other than Bottas sticking his fingers up to Merc metaphorically speaking).



No, you didn't. Didn't even bother watching the highlights.

Shame, it's such a lovely circuit (think the love child between Brands and Rockingham) but not suitable for the current generation of F1 cars in much the same way as Monaco and the Hungaroring. Basically the cars are too wide, and there's too much dirty air.

I think you needed a 2 second per lap overspeed to be able to overtake.


----------



## classic33 (5 Sep 2021)

Reynard said:


> No, you didn't. Didn't even bother watching the highlights.
> 
> Shame, it's such a lovely circuit (think the love child between Brands and Rockingham) but not suitable for the current generation of F1 cars in much the same way as Monaco and the Hungaroring. Basically the cars are too wide, and there's too much dirty air.
> 
> I think you needed a 2 second per lap overspeed to be able to overtake.


Bottas did okay though on the banked track though.


----------



## dave r (5 Sep 2021)

Tom B said:


> Anyone else a bit disappointed with the Zandvoort track?



No, having watched the race highlights its nice to have a track that they can overtake on, Perez was busy and must have been knackered by the end, the race at the front was rather like a chess match.


----------



## Jenkins (5 Sep 2021)

The F3 support races were quite entertaining as well, with the cars being smaller & less areo dependant. Multiple lines through the banked turn 3 hairpin!


----------



## icowden (6 Sep 2021)

Reynard said:


> No, you didn't. Didn't even bother watching the highlights.



There were HIGHLIGHTS? 

Hopefully the 2022 cars will mean that circuits like this have better racing.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (6 Sep 2021)

IIRC a 2 sec+ delta over the car in front was needed in order to be able to contemplate and overtake. Ridiculous.


----------



## dave r (6 Sep 2021)

Its finally been announced, Bottas to Alfa Romeo.

https://www.crash.net/f1/news/986732/1/bottas-replace-raikkonen-alfa-romeo-f1-2022


----------



## figbat (6 Sep 2021)

dave r said:


> Its finally been announced, Bottas to Alfa Romeo.
> 
> https://www.crash.net/f1/news/986732/1/bottas-replace-raikkonen-alfa-romeo-f1-2022


It really wouldn't surprise me if this happened mid-season too. Valtteri is a loose cannon now - even when not moving seats he ignored team orders and yesterday he did it again at the risk of losing Golden Boy a fastest lap point. Will Kimi come back after recovery? He's never been a "F1 is my life" kind of guy. So Kimi stays away, Bottas to Alfa, George to Merc, maybe Kubica can drive the Williams. You saw it here first!


----------



## dave r (6 Sep 2021)

figbat said:


> It really wouldn't surprise me if this happened mid-season too. Valtteri is a loose cannon now - even when not moving seats he ignored team orders and yesterday he did it again at the risk of losing Golden Boy a fastest lap point. Will Kimi come back after recovery? He's never been a "F1 is my life" kind of guy. So Kimi stays away, Bottas to Alfa, George to Merc, maybe Kubica can drive the Williams. You saw it here first!



They're talking about Albon to Williams, its just needs Toto to approve it, its about time that Kubica walked away, he's had his time.


----------



## Reynard (6 Sep 2021)

I'm wondering whether Williams might not take a punt on Jamie Chadwick. She is their development driver after all...

There's no guarantee Giovinazzi is going to stay at Alfa, consensus seems to be not, especially since there are more than just a few rumours floating around that Alfa will be switching to Mercedes engines next year. If that's the case, it's more likely to be a driver with a Mercedes retainer who takes that seat. I can't see Albon going there if he's still attached to Red Bull.


----------



## dave r (6 Sep 2021)

Reynard said:


> I'm wondering whether Williams might not take a punt on Jamie Chadwick. She is their development driver after all...
> 
> There's no guarantee Giovinazzi is going to stay at Alfa, consensus seems to be not, especially since there are more than just a few rumours floating around that Alfa will be switching to Mercedes engines next year. If that's the case, it's more likely to be a driver with a Mercedes retainer who takes that seat. I can't see Albon going there if he's still attached to Red Bull.



Toto is asking Albon to sever ties with Red Bull before he goes to Williams or Alfa.

https://www.crash.net/f1/news/98673...lliams-f1-seat-without-wolff-s-unusual-demand


----------



## figbat (6 Sep 2021)

Same goes for Williams - Toto is reportedly happy for Albon to go to Williams so long as he severs ties with Red Bull.


----------



## Reynard (6 Sep 2021)

But will he? Helmut Marko also has a part to play, and ultimately, he has the casting ballot in this.

I'd rather imagine Alpha Tauri will most likely drop Tsunoda and put Albon back in that seat instead. If they let him go, and given that RB have re-signed Perez for next year, it's more or less admitting that their driver academy programme is in a bit of a shambles.


----------



## dave r (6 Sep 2021)

Reynard said:


> But will he? Helmut Marko also has a part to play, and ultimately, he has the casting ballot in this.
> 
> I'd rather imagine Alpha Tauri will most likely drop Tsunoda and put Albon back in that seat instead. If they let him go, and given that RB have re-signed Perez for next year, it's more or less admitting that their driver academy programme is in a bit of a shambles.



Good question, time will tell, don't you just love the drivers merry go round.?


----------



## Reynard (6 Sep 2021)

dave r said:


> Good question, time will tell, don't you just love the drivers merry go round.?



Or the Silly Season as they used to call it...


----------



## dave r (7 Sep 2021)

Its now been announced, Russell to Mercedes

https://www.crash.net/f1/news/986751/1/russell-gets-mercedes-f1-promotion-partner-hamilton


----------



## Beebo (7 Sep 2021)

It’s going to be interesting next year.

Russell has never been out qualified by a team mate in 36 races with Williams.


----------



## matticus (7 Sep 2021)

I think as Russell's manager - and assuming it's true - I'd amend this to:


Beebo said:


> Russell has never been out qualified by a team mate in 36 Grand Prix races with Williams.


:P


----------



## Beebo (7 Sep 2021)

matticus said:


> I think as Russell's manager - and assuming it's true - I'd amend this to:
> 
> :P


He was out qualified by Bottas for the one off race with Merc. So you have to say, at Williams.


----------



## dave r (8 Sep 2021)

Albon to Williams.

https://www.crash.net/f1/news/986807/1/williams-sign-albon-partner-latifi-2022-f1-season


----------



## Bonefish Blues (8 Sep 2021)

Beebo said:


> He was out qualified by Bottas for the one off race with Merc. So you have to say, at Williams.


By a coupla 'undriths only, so not a bad showing in a car that he could barely sit in, mind!


----------



## Beebo (8 Sep 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> By a coupla 'undriths only, so not a bad showing in a car that he could barely sit in, mind!


So they will need to build a slightly larger cockpit now?
How much taller than Hamilton is he?


----------



## Bonefish Blues (8 Sep 2021)

Beebo said:


> So they will need to build a slightly larger cockpit now?
> How much taller than Hamilton is he?


Yes. Not sure how much there was in it, but I remember that he had to wear boots a size too small or his feet wouldn't fit.


----------



## Reynard (8 Sep 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Yes. Not sure how much there was in it, but I remember that he had to wear boots a size too small or his feet wouldn't fit.



That's almost late 80s-esque, where the trend was for very narrow cockpits.

Other than the Ferrari, where John Barnard pioneered the flappy paddle shift, all the other cars still ran a standard H-shift, so you got those "bubbles" on the side of the tub to accommodate the gear lever. Cue a lot of barked knuckles.

The Ross Brawn-designed Arrows A11 was notorious for its cramped cockpit. Sod's law the team had two of the bigger guys on the grid.


----------



## Beebo (8 Sep 2021)

Russell is 6foot 1
Hamilton is 5foot 7
So 6 inches height difference.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (8 Sep 2021)

Reynard said:


> The Ross Brawn-designed Arrows A11 was notorious for its cramped cockpit. Sod's law the team had two of the bigger guys on the grid.


That Terry Blouson?


----------



## figbat (8 Sep 2021)

Lest we forget that Mansell didn’t fit in the McLaren MP4/10 at all!

George’s drive in Lewis’s car was remarkable whichever way you look at it - 2 days’ notice, too tall, feet too big, up against a well-practised team mate and had him soundly beaten. You could even see George poking out of the top of the car, so aero and engine intake would also have been sub-optimal. Apparently he needed to ice various bruises after every session.


----------



## Reynard (8 Sep 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> That Terry Blouson?



Boutsen did drive for Arrows, but in '86.


----------



## BrumJim (9 Sep 2021)

Reynard said:


> Boutsen did drive for Arrows, but in '86.


Eddie Cheever and Derek Warwick, then.

I remember went Arrows went bust (Google tells me it was 2003) and they had an auction, including a three-seater F1 car and a Jaguar XK220. Sadly when I checked my bank balance I realised that I couldn't afford either.


----------



## matticus (9 Sep 2021)

BrumJim said:


> including a three-seater F1 car


That's good innovation to solve the fat driver problem.


----------



## Reynard (9 Sep 2021)

BrumJim said:


> Eddie Cheever and Derek Warwick, then.
> 
> I remember went Arrows went bust (Google tells me it was 2003) and they had an auction, including a three-seater F1 car and a Jaguar XK220. Sadly when I checked my bank balance I realised that I couldn't afford either.



Arrows were in trouble long before they finally folded... They were *meant* to be sponsoring my PhD (I started in Sept 2000) but there was an exodus of their engineering staff in 2001, and my project wound up being picked up by McLaren when my external supervisor moved there.

But yeah, Derek and Eddie.  The A11 didn't fit either. Derek needed to do the old smaller driving shoes / ice the bruises thing. Eddie is even taller than Derek, and at one race, he had to retire the car, and he keeled over after climbing out of it because the circulation had been cut off in one of his legs and it had gone numb.


----------



## Tom B (11 Sep 2021)

Still not at all sure about this sprint race quali.

Quali on a Friday when folk are at work.
Sprint race on Saturday where the bloke who gets the medal with No1 on it starts at the back having won the Medal with a fresh new box of horses that earns him the penalty.
Race on Sunday, which is effectively race part 2

I remember feeling the same after Silverstone sprint.. it's just like the race has been red flagged. For a day with a few penalities and points thrown in.


----------



## FishFright (11 Sep 2021)

Tom B said:


> Still not at all sure about this sprint race quali.
> 
> Quali on a Friday when folk are at work.
> Sprint race on Saturday where the bloke who gets the medal with No1 on it starts at the back having won the Medal with a fresh new box of horses that earns him the penalty.
> ...



I'm sure I don't like it now. Looks like a pure marketing exercise and adds nothing to the sport.


----------



## classic33 (11 Sep 2021)

How many can you get?
https://wtf1.com/post/weird-retirements-f1-quiz/


----------



## dave r (12 Sep 2021)

Tom B said:


> Still not at all sure about this sprint race quali.
> 
> Quali on a Friday when folk are at work.
> Sprint race on Saturday where the bloke who gets the medal with No1 on it starts at the back having won the Medal with a fresh new box of horses that earns him the penalty.
> ...



I like the idea but think it needs tweaking, I don't think they are allowed to change the car setup between the sprint race and the main race at the moment, but I recon they should be able to set the car up for the sprint then afterwards set it up for the main race, would give engineers a chance to be creative with set up.


----------



## Drago (12 Sep 2021)

keithmac said:


> I really hope they let Lewis and George go at it hammer and tongs next year, if they stunt George as the Number 2 driver it'll be last season I will watch F1 at all..


George reckons that theyre on the same contractual terms, other than the pay and perks I suspect! No designated No1 driver, equal access to facilites and testing, no team orders until such point in the season that one might habe a clear and insurmountable lead over the other, that sort of thing. Not that Lewis ever follows team orders anyway, but is always happy to benefit when they're called in has favour.

I'm looking forward to seeing George give Lewis a good snotting in equal gear, and I'm already running a book on the petulant social media whinging Lewis trots out by way of an excuse.



Reynard said:


> As for the whole Hamilton v Rosberg needle match, it smacked very much of Mansell v Piquet at Williams in 86 & 87. Piquet was a master of the nasty put-down, and Mansell was so easy to rub up the wrong way.


Verstappen refuses to become involved in those off-track psychological games, and Lewis doesn't like that.

Max is is equal in sheer ability, the car's are closer this year, and Lewis' favourite piece of gamesmanship does't work on Max, and it's showing in Lewis' demanour, which in turn is doubtless affecting his performance.

George is another one who refuses to indulge in these sort of games, either face to face or in the media, so Lewis will also struggle to respond the the challenge he is going to present next year, because on sheer driving abulity alone he doesn't have the edge on the pair of them.

Lewis could deal with Nico (most of the time) because, as you say, Nico would allow himself to get drawn into it to hismown detriment.

Contrast that with Alonso, who now seems to be in a happy place psychologically, and as a result he's become the wily old fox of F1, snatching points his car doesn't really deserve, and even managing to mix it with the top 3 teams on occasion. With Lewis' knowledge and experience thats the sort of driver he should be now, but I reckon he's too weak psychologically to be able to do so.

If it's not going completely his way Lewis flouders and is unable to cope with the pressure of expectation and failure. It is starting to become his own undoing.


----------



## dave r (12 Sep 2021)

Drago said:


> George reckons that theyre on the same contractual terms, other than the pay and perks I suspect! No designated No1 driver, equal access to facilites and testing, no team orders until such point in the season that one might habe a clear and insurmountable lead over the other, that sort of thing. Not that Lewis ever follows team orders anyway, but is always happy to benefit when they're called in has favour.
> 
> I'm looking forward to seeing George give Lewis a good snotting in equal gear, and I'm already running a book on the petulant social media whinging Lewis trots out by way of an excuse.
> 
> ...



I'm looking forward to the Lewis and Russel show next year, it has the potential to get entertaining.


----------



## Tom B (12 Sep 2021)

Well see how it pans out. I was looking forward to Perez being much closer to Verstappen, but arguably he's been no better than Albon.

Seems these cars need some getting used to.


----------



## byegad (12 Sep 2021)

Tom B said:


> Still not at all sure about this sprint race quali.
> 
> Quali on a Friday when folk are at work.
> Sprint race on Saturday where the bloke who gets the medal with No1 on it starts at the back having won the Medal with a fresh new box of horses that earns him the penalty.
> ...


Yes, totally agree. Given that the start and first few corners, especially at Monza, are where things can go badly wrong through no fault of the victim(s), the idea of having two goes at it seems designed to mix up the result and artificially create drama. I for one think it smacks of rating chasing and not prototype racing of the highest standard with cars that are the fastest they can be made within the design rule book.


----------



## Reynard (12 Sep 2021)

Drago said:


> George reckons that theyre on the same contractual terms, other than the pay and perks I suspect! No designated No1 driver, equal access to facilites and testing, no team orders until such point in the season that one might habe a clear and insurmountable lead over the other, that sort of thing. Not that Lewis ever follows team orders anyway, but is always happy to benefit when they're called in has favour.
> 
> I'm looking forward to seeing George give Lewis a good snotting in equal gear, and I'm already running a book on the petulant social media whinging Lewis trots out by way of an excuse.
> 
> ...



I disagree with your assessment. Max has shown himself quite capable to throw the toys out of the pram. No one's ever told him "NO" throughout his career - well, since he started in karts aged 4 or so, and he gets petulant if things don't go his own way. Woe betide he ever ends up with a team mate that can really put the pressure on. He certainly didn't like it at Silverstone. Max dug his own hole there by not playing the long game. In that way, he's as much of an arsey git as Senna was.

And that's not just my assessment, but also the assessment of people "in the know" who I happen to know.

The Hamilton - Russell dynamic will be interesting next year. But George is a team player and has the skill to back it up in terms of results, unlike Bottas, who has been decidedly inconsistent. Besides, he's a smart kid and knows that he's got time on his side. All he needs to do is bang in the results and bide his time.

The difference between someone like Max and George is that George has been allowed to develop his skill, racecraft and mental maturity out of the limelight, whereas Max (still) has all the mental maturity of a two year old.

There is a lot to be said for the "old days" where a driver had to have a road licence to be able to go racing in cars as opposed to karts. They're just much more in the right headspace. The older drivers, like Hamilton, Raikkonen and Alonso are all products of the old system, and IMHO it really does show.

I do like watching the juniors race in F4 and Ginettas - they do put on a great show, but some kids progress far too quickly (often greased by the Bank of Dad) for their own good. FFS, Max was driving an F1 car when he was 16. Tell me, how can a 16 year old be mature enough to do that - and deal with all the other shitniz that comes with it? Then throw in the fact that there's no "time-in-grade" to allow drivers to develop, especially mentally. The old system of FF1600, FF2000 (or Vauxhall-Lotus), F3, F3000 really did have merit.

They've since changed the rules, and you must now be at least 18. If the blind old sticks at the FIA can figure that one out...


----------



## Drago (12 Sep 2021)

Reynard said:


> I disagree with your assessment. Max has shown himself quite capable to throw the toys out of the pram.


Except that this year he said he would not.

And he has not.

We need to judge this seasons play by this seasons behaviour, not what has happened in the past. This season Max said he wouldn't, and he hasn't. What happened in previous years is an irrelevance.

The one time Lewis tried to bait him this season Max said to the media he wasn't interested, and that he would do his talking on the track. Having shut Lewis down Max has stayed totally out of the arguing and one-upmanship, and has left that to Horner. This has left Lewis holding his d*** in the media, and it was clear that he did not like it one bit.

Todays smash was buttock clenching. Ive watched it in slo-mo any times now, and Max had legitimately - if perhaps over bravely - gone round the outside of Lewis, and his car was 'substantially past' Lewis' car, ie, more than half a car alongside. Lewis didn't leave any room, and then Kerblammo!

But in all fairness to Lewis, what was he supposed to do? Since the FIA don't allow teams to fit vertical take off technology, and Mercedes haven't yet developed technology that allows their cars to dematerialise, I really don't see what the feller could have done to give more room.

Be interesting to see what the marshals make of it, as they have all the camera angles and telemetry and are far more cognisant of the sporting rules than I am.


----------



## Reynard (12 Sep 2021)

Drago said:


> Except that this year he said he would not.
> 
> And he has not.
> 
> ...



I haven't seen the incident because I refuse to pay into Bernie's retirement fund. Radio 5 Live for me. So I can't comment. Yet. But this is exactly what I keep saying about Max's lack of racecraft. He'd rather crash than give way.

The very best - think Lauda & Prost knew when it was better to retreat and fight another day. It's why they were multiple world champions in an era that had more jeopardy than it has now.

Umm, and you are so very conveniently forgetting Max's rather snippy temper tantrum post Silverstone.

I get it that you don't like Hamilton. But Max is no angel either.


----------



## Drago (12 Sep 2021)

Max didn't need to give way - he was more than half a cars length alongside and the sporting rules make it the duty of the other driver to give space once the other driver has 50% of their car alongside. He was entitled to be there, and entitled to expect his opponent to give way, as per the sporting code.

Equally, I don't see what Lewis could have done to suddenly make the space. He could have seem max taking a wider, and hence faster line on the entry and expected that, but it wasn't a given that max would go for it, or would stay on the wide line.

So my personal call on that one is racing incident, but then I'm not privy to all the data the marshals have.

But a blinding result for Ricciardo,mwho went on to further wow the crowd by thanking them in Italian.


----------



## classic33 (12 Sep 2021)

Driver of car Number 33 held responsible and given a three place grid penalty in the next race


----------



## Drago (12 Sep 2021)

Yep, I was calling racing incident but Max gets his bum spanked!

I'm not sure the reasoning as Max was more tham half a car alongside but, as aforementioned, the stewards have all sorts of data available to them they will doubtless know plenty that I don't. We should be thankful that lewis still has a head.

So thats one each now this season. I just hope they don't ruin someone elses championship with their shenanigans.

Interesting too that Norris is now only 7 points behind Bottas for 3rd in the championship.


----------



## Drago (12 Sep 2021)

A thought occured...

What if Red Bull decide to save what life is left in this engine and come back to it later in the season, and take a new engine for Russia? 

It's almost inevitable that they're going to have to take an engine penalty at some point, so why not do it in Russia and totally negate the grid penalty punishment?

Ferrari have done similar in the past with controlled components to either negate penalties like this, or simply to put their car ona different side of the grid, so I wonder if Mr Halliwell will go for that option?


----------



## figbat (12 Sep 2021)

It was interest to note how circumspect the drivers and team principles were. No real blame game, a small dig from Toto around ‘tactical foul’ but all in all I think they all agreed on racing incident. I’m surprised the stewards have disagreed.

Other than that, great race with the top 6 or 7 often in the same view pretty much all race. Someone in the Red Bull pit crew is in for a ‘performance conversation’ though.


----------



## classic33 (12 Sep 2021)

A button ease pushed, once the wheel was on. The button push replacing the automated system that was used before.

Why not a raised arm, with the front Jackman signalling clear to release instead?


----------



## Drago (12 Sep 2021)

figbat said:


> It was interest to note how circumspect the drivers and team principles were. No real blame game, a small dig from Toto around ‘tactical foul’ but all in all I think they all agreed on racing incident. I’m surprised the stewards have disagreed.
> 
> Other than that, great race with the top 6 or 7 often in the same view pretty much all race. Someone in the Red Bull pit crew is in for a ‘performance conversation’ though.


And fair play to Mr Halliwell, as the first words publicly from his lips were, "Thank God Lewis is alright..."


----------



## Tom B (12 Sep 2021)

Just like all these penalties and stewards decisions it's too contrived.

How did we cope until the mid 00s when penalties pretty much didn't exist.


**As a McLaren fan I may have had a few beers


----------



## Beebo (13 Sep 2021)

Just seen the replay. 
There was no chance of making an aggressive pass at that corner. He just stuck the car up the inside and expects Hamilton to move.


----------



## dave r (13 Sep 2021)

Six of one half a dozen of the other, racing incident, they should have both been in the head masters study, given a rollicking and told to calm down, they're as bad as each other.


----------



## Drago (13 Sep 2021)

Interestly, the marshals lay the blame at Max's door. They say because it was a late move Lewis was under no obligation to make room.

However, the regulations state that if the car is "substantially alongside", ie, half a cars length minimum, then the other car must yield - there is no rule that states any article of the sporting code does not apply in a late maneuver, so I'm unsure what part of the sporting code the marshals relied upon for that one.

Still, that makes it one-all now for this season. I think it likely that Red Bull will take their engine penalty next race, and thus negate the sporting penalty, so much like the penalty Lewis earned at Silverstone it's liable to make little difference.

But this is liable to happen again and again, so I've had an idea. Lets have some kind of mediaevel combat tournament between max and Lewis. A spot of jousting and swordfighting will settle the matter man-O-man, and won't result in any red flags. Probably more exciting that watching Max or Lewis win by virtue of an undercut instead of actual racing.


----------



## matticus (13 Sep 2021)

Drago said:


> However, the regulations state that if the car is "substantially alongside", ie, half a cars length minimum, then the other car must yield - there is no rule that states any article of the sporting code does not apply in a late maneuver, so I'm unsure what part of the sporting code the marshals relied upon for that one.


(I'd always read it as "more than half a car's length" but how is anyone going to to distinguish 49% from 51% ??? )
So yes, I think that's correct; but there is an unwritten rule, that if you dive in very late, it's a lot more likely that the other guy will ... er ... _inadequately assess_ your position and velocity. 

Or in other words, don't be surprised if he turns in on you, even if you think you're in the right!


----------



## Drago (13 Sep 2021)

Christ, enforcing unwritten rules. They marshals would make good social workers!


----------



## icowden (13 Sep 2021)

Drago said:


> Interestly, the marshals lay the blame at Max's door. They say because it was a late move Lewis was under no obligation to make room.
> 
> However, the regulations state that if the car is "substantially alongside", ie, half a cars length minimum, then the other car must yield - there is no rule that states any article of the sporting code does not apply in a late maneuver, so I'm unsure what part of the sporting code the marshals relied upon for that one.



I'm guessing that they were also looking at the racing line. Lewis had the line, and although Max was along side, any normal person in that position would have backed off. Verstappen didn't, didn't give room, hit the kerb and went flying. I don't think lewis could have given more room and reasonably made the chicane. Hence 3 place grid penalty.


----------



## matticus (13 Sep 2021)

The driver who starts in front would generally have the racing line!


----------



## glasgowcyclist (13 Sep 2021)

icowden said:


> I'm guessing that they were also looking at the racing line. Lewis had the line, and although Max was along side, any normal person in that position would have backed off. Verstappen didn't, didn't give room, hit the kerb and went flying. I don't think lewis could have given more room and reasonably made the chicane. Hence 3 place grid penalty.



I feel Verstappen could learn from reviewing Hamilton's behaviour when the roles were reversed at the second chicane earlier in the race; he bailed out.


----------



## Reynard (13 Sep 2021)

glasgowcyclist said:


> I feel Verstappen could learn from reviewing Hamilton's behaviour when the roles were reversed at the second chicane earlier in the race; he bailed out.



This in spades.

I believe that's part of the reason why the stewards put the blame at Max's door. Although a 3-place grid drop is the minimum penalty that can be applied in this instance.

Some of you are confusing stewards with marshals. They both have a very different role at race meetings. Though each marshal's post will have an observer (a senior marshal), who will write up all the incidents in their patch and pass those onto the chief marshal for the meeting, who then passes that on to race control. That information is also available to the stewards, who are essentially judges-of-fact.


----------



## icowden (13 Sep 2021)

Worth saying that usually some of the Stewards are former racing drivers.
I did see somewhere an opinion that if Max learned to back off when necessary he'd be about 50 points ahead now. He hasn't grasped that if he takes out both cars then he doesn't score any points either.


----------



## Beebo (13 Sep 2021)

View: https://youtu.be/k660y7johY0


A good analysis here. 
Max does need to learn when to back out of a situation.


----------



## matticus (13 Sep 2021)

Pretty unlucky to DNF both cars in what was basically a wheel-bashing incident in a very low-speed chicane. (it's a bit faster when no-one is in your way!)


----------



## Reynard (13 Sep 2021)

icowden said:


> Worth saying that usually some of the Stewards are former racing drivers.
> I did see somewhere an opinion that if Max learned to back off when necessary he'd be about 50 points ahead now. He hasn't grasped that if he takes out both cars then he doesn't score any points either.



Thank you.

This is the point I've been trying to make for several years, but more often than not, it falls on deaf ears.

Max will say no - without rhyme or reason, but no racecraft aside, it makes a vintage season.

There. I've had an attack of the limericks.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (13 Sep 2021)

icowden said:


> Worth saying that usually some of the Stewards are former racing drivers.
> I did see somewhere an opinion that if Max learned to back off when necessary he'd be about 50 points ahead now. He hasn't grasped that if he takes out both cars then he doesn't score any points either.


I think Max has an issue - has long had an issue - in that he is surrounded by people who have reinforced this sense of his always having been in the right. His father in particular strikes me (well fortunately he didn't strike me, but he has of course struck others) as someone whose influence has been unhelpful. Similarly, the Red Bull establishment and its attendant culture seems to fuel him with this - not sure what to call it - 'cocksureness', perhaps? A driver needs some humility to be able to learn the difference between battles and wars.


----------



## Reynard (13 Sep 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> I think Max has an issue - has long had an issue - in that he is surrounded by people who have reinforced this sense of his always having been in the right. His father in particular strikes me (well fortunately he didn't strike me, but he has of course struck others) as someone whose influence has been unhelpful. Similarly, the Red Bull establishment and its attendant culture seems to fuel him with this - not sure what to call it - 'cocksureness', perhaps? A driver needs some humility to be able to learn the difference between battles and wars.



Same as Senna and Schumacher the Elder. And to a certain extent Sebastian Vettel.

They expect the Red Sea to part for them on command, but it's always someone else's fault when it doesn't.

Makes me wonder how Schumacher's career would've panned out if Jochen Mass hadn't stopped Derek Warwick from giving Schuey a right old pasting.


----------



## matticus (13 Sep 2021)

Reynard said:


> Same as Senna and Schumacher the Elder.


Regrettably, two of THE most worshipped drivers in living memory.


----------



## Reynard (13 Sep 2021)

matticus said:


> Regrettably, two of THE most worshipped drivers in living memory.



Indeed.

Two men who didn't care who they stepped on in order to get their own way. Rose-tinted spectacles have a great deal to answer for.

I don't have much love for either.


----------



## icowden (27 Sep 2021)

Anyone watch Sochi (Russia) yesterday? One of the best races I have seen at Sochi. 
I thought Bottas could have tried harder. Not sure why he wasn't doing much, and didn't block Verstappen.


----------



## Tom B (27 Sep 2021)

It was a good race... But I'm gutted.

Bottas was nowhere and I suppose if he wants to know why he was replaced he needs to look at this race


----------



## Bonefish Blues (27 Sep 2021)

TBF Bottas has been an exemplary team driver these several years - and has been retained on that basis (and IIRC Mercedes has won the CC every year he's been there - which in funding terms is the one that counts). 

He's only being replaced because Toto needs a Lewis successor and he isn't it.


----------



## Beebo (9 Oct 2021)

Does Hamilton get credited with a pole position on his record?
He won qualifying but gets a 10 place penalty?


----------



## Reynard (9 Oct 2021)

Beebo said:


> Does Hamilton get credited with a pole position was on his record?
> He won qualifying but gets a 10 place penalty?



No, Bottas will be credited with pole.


----------



## icowden (10 Oct 2021)

I quite enjoyed today's race. Not as exciting as expected but fun nevertheless.


----------



## Reynard (10 Oct 2021)

The BTCC meet from Donington had some pretty fine racing.


----------



## Beebo (11 Oct 2021)

Possibly the most boring wet race ever. 
It never got wet enough to make it difficult to stay on track and never got dry enough to make the switch to slicks. 
It can’t be right that worn interns are the best tyre option.


----------



## matticus (11 Oct 2021)

Beebo said:


> Possibly the most boring wet race ever.


It was until Radio Lewis got a bit spicey


----------



## Beebo (11 Oct 2021)

matticus said:


> It was until Radio Lewis got a bit spicey


But we only got to that situation because of the crazy tyre situation. 
And by then the decision was probably the correct one, albeit it was made too late.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (11 Oct 2021)

Hi Pirelli, Merc Strategy here. Will our tyres last - Y/N?

If N, get Lewis in immediately by telling him this.

If Y, then offer the option to him, but warn of tyres falling off the cliff in the very late laps.

Seems to me they equivocated, which is why Lewis was cross, because he got the worst of all worlds - and then because cross he overworked his tyres, which promptly grained and were hopeless.


----------



## matticus (11 Oct 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Hi Pirelli, Merc Strategy here. Will our tyres last - Y/N?
> 
> If N, get Lewis in immediately by telling him this.
> 
> If Y, then offer the option to him, but warn of tyres falling off the cliff in the very late laps.


...
What do you mean, you've never tested a set for 58 laps of Turkey in very slight drizzle? What are we paying you for, FFS ??


----------



## Bonefish Blues (11 Oct 2021)

matticus said:


> ...
> What do you mean, you've never tested a set for 58 laps of Turkey in very slight drizzle? What are we paying you for, FFS ??


Because you've got a damn sight more chance of being accurate than us - besides, aiui Pirelli was unequivocally saying no they won't.

I guess I'm saying that Merc need to be as strong with Lewis as he is with them.


----------



## matticus (11 Oct 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Because you've got a damn sight more chance of being accurate than us - besides, *aiui Pirelli was unequivocally saying no they won't.*


I didn't know that - you should have mentioned it earlier!



Bonefish Blues said:


> I guess I'm saying that Merc need to be as strong with Lewis as he is with them.


Well yes, I'd agree.

(I'd go further - the staff that man the ship-to-shore radios should go on some assertiveness training. And Lewis should be on the same course; I imagine that like most top drivers, he doesn't know HOW to have a professional exchange of views with his colleagues, as in his world they have always been just servants. (Starting with his very dedicated father). )


----------



## figbat (11 Oct 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Pirelli was unequivocally saying no they won't.


I guess Ocon didn’t get that memo.


----------



## Reynard (11 Oct 2021)

This is where you wish that they still tested F1 cars at Silverstone in January... 

I can understand Ocon taking the risk to stay out. It paid off as he finished 10th, but if it had gone t*ts up, it wouldn't be the end of the world for him.

On the flip side, when the championship fight is this tight, and with only a handful of races to go, the onus is to minimize the risk of not finishing the race. If things had gone horribly wrong (tyre going *pop* or performance falling off the edge of the cliff), Lewis could've been close to a race win's worth of points behind Max. As it is, it's only six, which is nothing in the scheme of things.

I'll say that Mercedes did make the right decision to bring him in, but I do think that as a result of the in-car Caligula moment, he came in several laps too late.


----------



## Beebo (11 Oct 2021)

figbat said:


> I guess Ocon didn’t get that memo.


Any tyre manufacturer will cover themselves and be reasonable pessimistic about tyre life with an element of fat built in to the calculations. 
Ocon had nothing to lose by pushing the envelope. Hamilton couldn’t risk it. 
Although it’s a health risk if a tyre lets go at 200mph.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (11 Oct 2021)

figbat said:


> I guess Ocon didn’t get that memo.


https://www.planetf1.com/news/esteban-ocon-near-puncture-turkish-gp/

Tell me Pirelli were wrong 

Lewis had canvas showing on his when he pitted.


----------



## Grant Fondo (11 Oct 2021)

You know it was a dull race when tyre wear is the big story. It was just the 'wrong sort' of rain


----------



## Bonefish Blues (12 Oct 2021)

Grant Fondo said:


> You know it was a dull race when tyre wear is the big story. It was just the 'wrong sort' of rain


And the fact they'd made the new track surface out of the grippiest material known to man, seemingly!


----------



## Reynard (12 Oct 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> And the fact they'd made the new track surface out of the grippiest material known to man, seemingly!



I guess they didn't want a repetition of last year's Bambi on Ice...


----------



## Beebo (27 Oct 2021)

The Martin Brundle US GP grid walk video is quite amusing as he gets annoyed by bouncers but what really surprised me were comments on YouTube about his personal fortune. 
He’s apparently worth £100 million. How did a good,but not great driver make that sort of money? I presume he has other business interests?


----------



## Reynard (27 Oct 2021)

Beebo said:


> The Martin Brundle US GP grid walk video is quite amusing as he gets annoyed by bouncers but what really surprised me were comments on YouTube about his personal fortune.
> He’s apparently worth £100 million. How did a good,but not great driver make that sort of money? I presume he has other business interests?



A series of garages and car dealerships (Toyota mainly) in the Kings Lynn area.


----------



## icowden (28 Oct 2021)

Reynard said:


> A series of garages and car dealerships (Toyota mainly) in the Kings Lynn area.



That doesn't seem to be where the bulk of his net worth comes from. That seems to be related to his long racing career and his salary from Sky.


----------



## Beebo (14 Nov 2021)

Spoiler: Brazilian GP spolier



.
That was an amazing performance from Hamilton and Mercedes. 
A total of 25 grid place penalties and he secures a victory. His car was just so much faster. 
And the stewards gave some very odd decisions in favour of Verstappen.


----------



## classic33 (14 Nov 2021)

Beebo said:


> Spoiler: Brazilian GP spolier
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Too much being decided off-track now.


----------



## Reynard (14 Nov 2021)

May the odds ever be in your favour.

Either way, a belting race.


----------



## classic33 (14 Nov 2021)

Reynard said:


> May the odds ever be in your favour.
> 
> Either way, a belting race.


For some more than others. 
Bits everywhere.


----------



## yello (14 Nov 2021)

Hamilton really is quite an amazing driver, and person. He just believes and does it.


----------



## Jenkins (14 Nov 2021)

I really want to see Max's forward facing in car camera for 'that' turn 4 incident. 

Worth watching the C4 highlights for those that don't have Sky coverage.


----------



## Reynard (14 Nov 2021)

classic33 said:


> For some more than others.
> Bits everywhere.



Mmmm yes.

There was a time FIA stood for Ferrari International Assistance...


----------



## Reynard (14 Nov 2021)

yello said:


> Hamilton really is quite an amazing driver, and person. He just believes and does it.



The best drivers are like that. It's as much in your head as it is a physical skill.


----------



## classic33 (14 Nov 2021)

Reynard said:


> Mmmm yes.
> 
> There was a time FIA stood for Ferrari International Assistance...


Front wings, barge boards...

What team did the current CEO have a hand in before?


----------



## Beebo (14 Nov 2021)

How many other drivers start 10 places behind their team mate, and overtake them within about 5 laps? There are simply very few drivers in history that could do that.


----------



## Reynard (14 Nov 2021)

classic33 said:


> Front wings, barge boards...
> 
> What team did the current CEO have a hand in before?



Arrows, Benetton, Ferrari *and* what later became Mercedes. Not to mention TWR Jaguar, where he produced the absolutely exquisite XJR-14...


----------



## figbat (14 Nov 2021)

Spoiler: Result spoiler



Outstanding. Effectively overcame a 25 place penalty to win by a distance. One for the memoirs.


----------



## classic33 (14 Nov 2021)

figbat said:


> Spoiler: Result spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Outstanding. Effectively overcame a 25 place penalty to win by a distance. One for the memoirs.





Spoiler



Others have had similar penalties for changing engines. He knew before qualifying started the five place penalty would be given





Spoiler: May not be over yet



Hamilton to see the stewards in five minutes


----------



## classic33 (14 Nov 2021)

Reynard said:


> Arrows, Benetton, Ferrari *and* what later became Mercedes. Not to mention TWR Jaguar, where he produced the absolutely exquisite XJR-14...


If you include Williams, then it's the MD.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (14 Nov 2021)

Beebo said:


> How many other drivers start 10 places behind their team mate, and overtake them within about 5 laps? There are simply very few drivers in history that could do that.



They possibly could if they too had a car that was 20mph faster than the others.


----------



## Beebo (14 Nov 2021)

classic33 said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He took his seat belt off. 
He could be in trouble. Hope he just gets a 5 second penalty. 
It would be terrible if anything else happened


----------



## figbat (14 Nov 2021)

classic33 said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> However, Hamilton is currently under investigation after being summoned to the stewards for an alleged breach of safety belt rules.


I noticed he loosened his belts on the return lap to get higher out of the cockpit to acknowledge the crowd.


----------



## classic33 (14 Nov 2021)

€5000 fine, with a further €20,000 if he repeats it before the end of 2022.


----------



## Beebo (14 Nov 2021)

The stewards have to pay for their Christmas party some how. 
They’ve made good money this weekend


----------



## Beebo (15 Nov 2021)

I’ve now watched the push out wide incident loads of times on YouTube. No video I have seen has any footage of Verstapens onboard steering wheel. Would the FIA be deliberately blocking the release of this?
All commentators seem to be in agreement that it was a deliberate act which sets a very dangerous precedent for future races.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (15 Nov 2021)

Beebo said:


> I’ve now watched the push out wide incident loads of times on YouTube. No video I have seen has any footage of Verstapens onboard steering wheel. Would the FIA be deliberately blocking the release of this?
> All commentators seem to be in agreement that *it was a deliberate act* which sets a very dangerous precedent for future races.


Without a scintilla of doubt.

Precedent schmecedent - FIA does what it likes tbh.


----------



## FishFright (15 Nov 2021)

Beebo said:


> I’ve now watched the push out wide incident loads of times on YouTube. No video I have seen has any footage of Verstapens onboard steering wheel. Would the FIA be deliberately blocking the release of this?
> All commentators seem to be in agreement that it was a deliberate act which sets a very dangerous precedent for future races.



It has been going on since they put tarmac on the outsides of corners and all the drivers will do it to protect a place. It's only news when it's the top 2 or 3 drivers doing it.


----------



## icowden (15 Nov 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Without a scintilla of doubt.



Although Coulthard seemed adamant in the commentary that it was just "hard racing" and the drivers (Max) taking advantage of the fact that there is no gravel trap. Not sure myself. I think Merc will be complaining about it.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (15 Nov 2021)

icowden said:


> Although Coulthard seemed adamant in the commentary that it was just "hard racing" and the drivers (Max) taking advantage of the fact that there is no gravel trap. Not sure myself. I think Merc will be complaining about it.


Coulthard is in the employ of the Red Bull organisation. Make of that what you will.


----------



## FishFright (15 Nov 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Coulthard is in the employ of the Red Bull organisation. Make of that what you will.



He is also an ex F1 driver who probably knows more about hard racing that than almost everyone on this side of the screen. Compare that to shouty Crofty who will turn somersaults in an attempt to let Merc drivers off.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (15 Nov 2021)

FishFright said:


> He is also an ex F1 driver who probably knows more about hard racing that than almost everyone on this side of the screen. Compare that to shouty Crofty who will turn somersaults in an attempt to let Merc drivers off.


We're not discussing Croft, he's irrelevant to this discussion because whataboutery.

Regarding Coulthard, correct, he does. I like him, he's a very accomplished presenter, and has a huge amount of relevant knowledge. Thing is though, we all have windows through which we view things. Have you ever - I mean on any _one single occasion _- known him to criticise a Red Bull driver in this type of scenario?


----------



## FishFright (15 Nov 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> We're not discussing Croft, he's irrelevant to this discussion because whataboutery.
> 
> Regarding Coulthard, correct, he does. I like him, he's a very accomplished presenter, and has a huge amount of relevant knowledge. Thing is though, we all have windows through which we view things. Have you ever - I mean on any _one single occasion _- known him to criticise a Red Bull driver in this type of scenario?



Yes plenty of times, even when he was driving for them.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (15 Nov 2021)

FishFright said:


> Yes plenty of times, even when he was driving for them.


Then our recollections clearly differ on this matter. Maybe you could find some to put my mind at rest?


----------



## FishFright (15 Nov 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Then our recollections clearly differ on this matter. Maybe you could find some to put my mind at rest?



Watch any GP without your bias specs on ... and pay attention.

I've never been keen on Coultard and like any person he has his biases but to say he never has been critical of RB is just plain silly.


----------



## figbat (15 Nov 2021)

Max went in there with no attempt to make the corner, knowing that Lewis was outside him (he knows this because Lewis was in front of him at the corner entry). He not only made no attempt to make the corner, he further kept pushing a wider line through the run-off to keep Lewis out wider. So he gained a lasting advantage by pushing Lewis off.

However I think a penalty would have spoiled a great race. A review and clarification on what is and isn't acceptable with consistent application would satisfy me. In the end it was notable but not result-altering.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (15 Nov 2021)

FishFright said:


> Watch any GP without your bias specs on ... and pay attention.
> 
> I've never been keen on Coultard and like any person he has his biases but to say he never has been critical of RB is just plain silly.


So prove me wrong rather than simply going on a somewhat transparent attack


----------



## Bonefish Blues (15 Nov 2021)

figbat said:


> Max went in there with no attempt to make the corner, knowing that Lewis was outside him (he knows this because Lewis was in front of him at the corner entry). He not only made no attempt to make the corner, he further kept pushing a wider line through the run-off to keep Lewis out wider. So he gained a lasting advantage by pushing Lewis off.
> 
> However I think a penalty would have spoiled a great race. A review and clarification on what is and isn't acceptable with consistent application would satisfy me. In the end it was notable but not result-altering.


I think it's a rather broader issue than that - F1's the pinnacle of motorsport and the example set there undoubtedly filters down to other formulae and young drivers in particular.


----------



## FishFright (15 Nov 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> So prove me wrong rather than simply going on a somewhat transparent attack



You made a sweeping statement which is so obviously incorrect I assumed you were trolling hence not really taking it seriously.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (15 Nov 2021)

FishFright said:


> You made a sweeping statement which is so obviously incorrect I assumed you were trolling hence not really taking it seriously.


I made a statement. You say it's sweeping, you assume I'm trolling. Those are _your_ assumptions.

Prove me wrong and I will withdraw my remarks.


----------



## figbat (15 Nov 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> I think it's a rather broader issue than that - F1's the pinnacle of motorsport and the example set there undoubtedly filters down to other formulae and young drivers in particular.


Does it though? Do younger drivers watch Max and think "next time I'm on track I'll do that"? Perhaps they do but I simply don't know. I suspect each formula has its own approaches and guidelines on this so whilst they might watch and see Max getting away with it, they might also be thinking "no chance I could do that". Lower formulae often simply don't have the space to get away with it anyway - try that at Oulton Park or wherever any you'll be in the scenery in quick order.


----------



## FishFright (15 Nov 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> I made a statement. You say it's sweeping, you assume I'm trolling. Those are _your_ assumptions.
> 
> Prove me wrong and I will withdraw my remarks.



You're still trolling . You made that assertion so you need to have proof before you post because that is how life works.

Anyway this kind of block overtake happens most races but this time Hamilton was on the receiving end so it's important. If it was Schumacher jr and Latifi no one would have posted today.


----------



## figbat (15 Nov 2021)

This wasn't a block overtake though - this was a cynical lunge, with no hope of making the corner and some chance of a collision... which would have suited Max down to the ground.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (15 Nov 2021)

FishFright said:


> You're still trolling . You made that assertion so you need to have proof before you post because that is how life works.
> 
> Anyway this kind of block overtake happens most races but this time Hamilton was on the receiving end so it's important. If it was Schumacher jr and Latifi no one would have posted today.


You now want me to find instances where _DC has not criticised Red Bull_? Are you serious? We'll ignore the further accusation of trolling and whataboutery.

I made a statement I believe to be correct, and which is well-understood in Motorsport. You say it's nonsense. I repeat can you find an instance where DC has criticised Red Bull and I will withdraw my remarks?


----------



## Bonefish Blues (15 Nov 2021)

figbat said:


> Does it though? Do younger drivers watch Max and think "next time I'm on track I'll do that"? Perhaps they do but I simply don't know. I suspect each formula has its own approaches and guidelines on this so whilst they might watch and see Max getting away with it, they might also be thinking "no chance I could do that". Lower formulae often simply don't have the space to get away with it anyway - try that at Oulton Park or wherever any you'll be in the scenery in quick order.


I think that things do filter down, yes, especially to younger drivers. Maybe not to the specifics of 'I'll do that move', but to the level of acceptable defence of a corner - iyswim.


----------



## Reynard (15 Nov 2021)

If you want to see how the younger drivers race, may I direct you gentlemen to the Ginetta Juniors? Those lads can show the older guys a thing or two about good CLEAN hard racing.

Lando Norris is a graduate of Ginetta Juniors, btw.

Having seen the incident on the telly, I think the commentators on the radio made it sound worse than it actually was. It was "elbows out" driving that used to be par-for-course back in the day, although minus the jeopardy of the gravel trap or a grass run-off that would have been there a couple of decades ago. It was nowhere in the same league as what Senna did to Prost, or what Schumacher did to various others in both Sportscars and F1.

Racing drivers are the sort of people who, give them an inch, they'll take a mile. You *would* have expected a penalty for that incident, if only because Max got the advantage from running off the road (keeping the lead) as that is the precedent that the rules have set, but tbh, I'm actually glad there wasn't a penalty as no one can whine that it decided the race.

P.S. I don't particularly like Cool-thud either, although that stems from his junior formulae days when he didn't get on terribly well with an ex of mine...


----------



## Bonefish Blues (15 Nov 2021)

Yes the Ginettas are a cracking watch - bodywork made of old Tranbants, I think though, any touch and it flies off!


----------



## figbat (15 Nov 2021)

There is also the cost factor. The F1 drivers know that they can hand back a steaming pile of wreckage and in a few hours have a new car to drive. When you are paying for it yourself, or at least held very accountable for damage, plus potentially putting yourself out of a race meeting through a small contact, you take a bit more care.


----------



## Reynard (15 Nov 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Yes the Ginettas are a cracking watch - bodywork made of old Tranbants, I think though, any touch and it flies off!



Same applies to the bigger GT4 cars...


----------



## Bonefish Blues (15 Nov 2021)

What the hell's a Tranbant, anyway?


----------



## matticus (15 Nov 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> What the hell's a Tranbant, anyway?


It's an East German car driven mainly by Tran ... no, I'll stop there, wrong forum ...


----------



## Alex321 (15 Nov 2021)

FishFright said:


> You're still trolling . You made that assertion so you need to have proof before you post because that is how life works.


You (in this case he) can't prove a negative which is what you are demanding he do, but a single positive would disprove it.



> Anyway this kind of block overtake happens most races but this time Hamilton was on the receiving end so it's important. If it was Schumacher jr and Latifi no one would have posted today.



If Hamilton had done the same, you can be sure he WOULD have been penalised. Blocking by drifting outwards is somewhat commonplace agreed - but to the extent of the blocking car leaving the track themselves - that is taking it too far.


----------



## dave r (15 Nov 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> What the hell's a Tranbant, anyway?



One of these.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (15 Nov 2021)

dave r said:


> One of these.
> 
> View attachment 617884


Isn't that a Trabant?


----------



## dave r (15 Nov 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Isn't that a Trabant?



I believe it is.


----------



## Reynard (15 Nov 2021)

figbat said:


> There is also the cost factor. The F1 drivers know that they can hand back a steaming pile of wreckage and in a few hours have a new car to drive. When you are paying for it yourself, or at least held very accountable for damage, plus potentially putting yourself out of a race meeting through a small contact, you take a bit more care.



It depends... How the damage is paid for is stipulated in the driver's contract, and is often, but not always, dependent on the money that they do - or don't - bring to the team. Some will be paying all damage costs out of their pockets, some won't be.

Unfortunately, we're not party to the minutiae of F1 drivers' contracts, but for those who don't have to pay for the damage, the teams have to pick up the tab - usually from their development budget, so it will bite the driver in the bum regardless. More of an issue now with the overall budget caps than in was back in the 80s and 90s with the big money tobacco sponsors.


----------



## BrumJim (15 Nov 2021)

Reynard said:


> It depends... How the damage is paid for is stipulated in the driver's contract, and is often, but not always, dependent on the money that they do - or don't - bring to the team. Some will be paying all damage costs out of their pockets, some won't be.
> 
> Unfortunately, we're not party to the minutiae of F1 drivers' contracts, but for those who don't have to pay for the damage, the teams have to pick up the tab - usually from their development budget, so it will bite the driver in the bum regardless. More of an issue now with the overall budget caps than in was back in the 80s and 90s with the big money tobacco sponsors.


Was there ever anything left of Andrea de Cesaris's pay packet?


----------



## Jenkins (15 Nov 2021)

Beebo said:


> I’ve now watched the push out wide incident loads of times on YouTube. No video I have seen has any footage of Verstapens onboard steering wheel. Would the FIA be deliberately blocking the release of this?
> All commentators seem to be in agreement that it was a deliberate act which sets a very dangerous precedent for future races.


Max's forward facing on board camera wasn't one of the live broadcast cameras so even the FIA didn't have access to it at the time.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/m...rule-to-hamilton-verstappen-incident/6783852/
As I said yesterday, it will be interesting to see the footage once it's been downloaded & released as only one of the drivers was going to be able to make that corner and it wasn't the driver on the inside. Lewis was also lucky not to pick up any floor damage when he regained the circuit going over some grassed area and a bit of a kerb.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (15 Nov 2021)

An interesting piece of analysis here:


View: https://youtu.be/yPKjVrxvgbI


----------



## Reynard (15 Nov 2021)

BrumJim said:


> Was there ever anything left of Andrea de Cesaris's pay packet?



I've just spat my tea all over my laptop. 

Not sure there was ever much left of Vittorio Brambilla's either...


----------



## FishFright (16 Nov 2021)

Alex321 said:


> You (in this case he) can't prove a negative which is what you are demanding he do, but a single positive would disprove it.
> 
> 
> 
> If Hamilton had done the same, you can be sure he WOULD have been penalised. Blocking by drifting outwards is somewhat commonplace agreed - but to the extent of the blocking car leaving the track themselves - that is taking it too far.



Hamilton has done it for years , as have many other drivers. 

Does anyone commenting actually watch F1 ??


----------



## Alex321 (16 Nov 2021)

FishFright said:


> Hamilton has done it for years , as have many other drivers.
> 
> Does anyone commenting actually watch F1 ??


And Hamilton has regularly been penalised for similar things. He did less at the British GP than Verstappen did this time, but got a 10 second penalty for it.

Not that either he or "many other drivers" have often gone quite as far as Verstappen did this time, in going fully off the track himself, rather than just not leaving enough room.


----------



## icowden (16 Nov 2021)

FishFright said:


> Hamilton has done it for years , as have many other drivers.
> 
> Does anyone commenting actually watch F1 ??



Yes. I have seen drivers do that where they don't have a choice in order to retain control of the car, or to avoid accidents. 
I haven't seen Max's approach of just not bothering to turn the wheel.


----------



## FishFright (16 Nov 2021)

icowden said:


> Yes. I have seen drivers do that where they don't have a choice in order to retain control of the car, or to avoid accidents.
> I haven't seen Max's approach of just not bothering to turn the wheel.



I've seen it loads and for many years , ever since they started to replace gravel traps with tarmac. It's happened hundreds of times and has been discussed by the commentators and motorsport press for a long time.


----------



## FishFright (16 Nov 2021)

icowden said:


> Yes. I have seen drivers do that where they don't have a choice in order to retain control of the car, or to avoid accidents.
> I haven't seen Max's approach of just not bothering to turn the wheel.



Don't you remember Hamilton driving Rosberg off track repeatedly leading to crashes when Rosberg decided not to let it happen no more ? 
A bit more recent ? Hamilton driving Albon of the track in Austria ? 

It happens to someone most races nowadays but you'd know that of course so ... ??


----------



## icowden (16 Nov 2021)

FishFright said:


> Don't you remember Hamilton driving Rosberg off track repeatedly leading to crashes when Rosberg decided not to let it happen no more ?
> A bit more recent ? Hamilton driving Albon of the track in Austria ?
> 
> It happens to someone most races nowadays but you'd know that of course so ... ??


 
Have you been to specsavers? Albon left Hamilton with no space, they touched wheels, Albon went off. I can find numerous examples of Rosberg forcing Hamilton off track but not vice versa.


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (16 Nov 2021)

We were discussing this after the race
One possibility we came up with was that Max might have been thinking there would be a wheel-to-wheel collision which would, in effect, knock Max's car left and Lewis's right - hence Max would make the corner - actually or nearly - and Lewis would go way wide
In the event of damage Lewis would be more likely to come off worse

In this case Lewis saw what was happening and avoided it - hence Max didn;t get the expected knock left and this caused him to go far wider than he was expecting

It is a bit of a stretch - but these guys think incredibly fast - any thoughts??


----------



## figbat (16 Nov 2021)

I doubt very much that Max intended there to be a 'lucky' collision - these cars are so fragile that even an apparently innocuous rub at the wrong angle in the wrong place can put a car out, or at least cause a puncture to the same effective outcome. Whether he had Schumacher-esque plans of all-out collision - I doubt that too. I do believe he went in with no intent to make the corner - there's no lock-up and no apparent understeer (as far as one can tell from an off-board viewpoint). Lewis was always going to come off worse if they both went off and if they did collide in a race-ending manner then Max is still top of the championship - it's a win-win for Max unless Lewis carried on and he didn't.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (16 Nov 2021)

In car footage from MV's car is now available.

https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/f1/12...


----------



## figbat (16 Nov 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> In car footage from MV's car is now available.
> 
> https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/f1/12...


Hmmmm.... perhaps there _was _some effort to turn in... although perhaps too little too late...


----------



## Alex321 (16 Nov 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> In car footage from MV's car is now available.
> 
> https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/f1/12...


Max should very definitely be getting a penalty from that view.

He clearly saw Hamilton outside (and mostly ahead) of him, and made no attempt to turn in until past the point where he was going to force Hamilton off the road.


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (16 Nov 2021)

Far too little steering angle on starting the corner
He knew Lewis was on his outside
Lewis started slowing down a fair way before Max - and I bet Lewis was leaving it as late as he possible could
Hence Max was - probably deliberately - braking too late to make the corner - therefore forcing a situation where he would understeer if he turned normally

Conclusion - Max deliberately braked far too late thus putting Lewis slightly behind him on his outside - and then turned far too little until Lewis was forced to either collide or veer right
THEN Max turned fully and carried on

Guilty


----------



## Bonefish Blues (16 Nov 2021)

Mercedes has put in a formal appeal against the decision of the Stewards* based on new evidence.

*Who, remember, said that no investigation was necessary v-a-v the incident, nor did Masi, Race Director ask them to examine it, as is his right.

The latter point is what I find most remarkable about this.


----------



## Alex321 (16 Nov 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Mercedes has put in a formal appeal against the decision of the Stewards* based on new evidence.
> 
> *Who, remember, said that no investigation was necessary v-a-v the incident, nor did Masi, Race Director ask them to examine it, as is his right.
> 
> The latter point is what I find most remarkable about this.


When they said "No investigation necessary" that was during the race, and apparently even *they* didn't have access to that footage we have now seen.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (16 Nov 2021)

Alex321 said:


> When they said "No investigation necessary" that was during the race, and apparently even *they* didn't have access to that footage we have now seen.


Correct, but they had access to plenty of other footage. It has been commonplace* to examine this kind of incident in the last season or two.

*Read 'routine', actually


----------



## Beebo (16 Nov 2021)

From the onboard camera It does look like he’s going far too fast and not steering left enough. 
Id like to see a comparison with the lap before and the lap after to see what steering input he usually did.


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (16 Nov 2021)

Beebo said:


> From the onboard camera It does look like he’s going far too fast and not steering left enough.
> Id like to see a comparison with the lap before and the lap after to see what steering input he usually did.


and his braking point - I reckon he deliberatly braked far to late


----------



## Cerdic (17 Nov 2021)

Surely the stewards have access to the car's telemetry? That should tell them far more than TV footage.

Anyway, I just want to see good racing without the stewards poking their noses in. Like in the old days. Maybe I'm just getting old...


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (17 Nov 2021)

Cerdic said:


> Surely the stewards have access to the car's telemetry? That should tell them far more than TV footage.
> 
> Anyway, I just want to see good racing without the stewards poking their noses in. Like in the old days. Maybe I'm just getting old...


They do have access - but it seems not necessarily immediately


----------



## classic33 (17 Nov 2021)

Cerdic said:


> Surely the stewards have access to the car's telemetry? That should tell them far more than TV footage.
> 
> Anyway, I just want to see good racing without the stewards poking their noses in. Like in the old days. Maybe I'm just getting old...


They have, and had. 
Unless the teams are willing to make it public, we'll never see it.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (17 Nov 2021)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> and his braking point - I reckon he deliberatly braked far to late


They both braked 10m later, as you'd expect, but MV carried way more speed into the corner than on any other lap.

Jolyon Palmer's analysis is worth a watch:

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/...milton-at-interlagos.1716614097935388221.html


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (17 Nov 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> They both braked 10m later, as you'd expect, but MV carried way more speed into the corner than on any other lap.
> 
> Jolyon Palmer's analysis is worth a watch:
> 
> https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/...milton-at-interlagos.1716614097935388221.html



Your comment suggests that Max didn;t brake as hard as he could have done - plus he was on a less grippy part of the track


I am not surprised

is there a link to the data?


----------



## Bonefish Blues (17 Nov 2021)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> Your comment suggests that Max didn;t brake as hard as he could have done - plus he was on a less grippy part of the track
> 
> 
> I am not surprised
> ...


I'll come back with links later 

...but it's broadly supportive of JP's analysis. See this post for their respective speeds into the corner. Only one had a hope of making it round within track limits - very much as JP states.

https://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1012245#p1012245


----------



## classic33 (17 Nov 2021)

As given on the thread linked to






Source for this can't be verified at this moment.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (19 Nov 2021)

FIA will not review the incident, it has announced.

At here, amongst other sources:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/formula1/58748568#:~:text=Formula 1 officials,to 14 points.


----------



## dave r (19 Nov 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> FIA will not review the incident, it has announced.
> 
> At here, amongst other sources:
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/formula1/58748568#:~:text=Formula 1 officials,to 14 points.



Heres the report.

https://www.crash.net/f1/news/993376/1/f1-stewards-full-verdict-mercedes-rejected-review-request


----------



## Beebo (28 Nov 2021)

Just been announced that Frank Williams has died. 
An absolute legend of British F1 who over came huge personal setbacks.


----------



## Beebo (28 Nov 2021)

This is a very special video. You can see how weak Frank is, no muscle strength to keep him upright. I bet Hamilton was giving it less than 50% but still fantastic. 
They get called in after 1 lap but carry on to do another, after all whose going to stop those two at Silverstone. 
I presume it’s a convertible as it’s the only car he could fit in, as the top is down at the start. 

View: https://youtu.be/kSoQtwbpcGU


----------



## glasgowcyclist (28 Nov 2021)

A British motorsport legend, Sir Frank Williams, has taken his final chequered flag. 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/59453378

_Sir Frank Williams, founder and former team principal of the Williams Racing Formula 1 team, has died aged 79._​​_He built the team named after him into one of the most successful in the sport._​_During his time with Williams, the team won nine constructors' championships and seven drivers' titles, and dominated much of the 1980s and 1990s._​​_He and daughter Claire moved away from the sport in September 2020 after selling Williams to US investors._​​_In a statement, the Williams team said: "It is with great sadness that on behalf of the Williams family, the team can confirm the death of Sir Frank Williams CBE, founder and former team principal of Williams Racing, at the age of 79._​​_"After being admitted into hospital on Friday, Sir Frank passed away peacefully this morning surrounded by his family._​​_"Today we pay tribute to our much loved and inspirational figurehead. Frank will be sorely missed. We request that all friends and colleagues respect the Williams family's wishes for privacy at this time."_​


----------



## cosmicbike (29 Nov 2021)

A sad day for F1, and I can't have been the only one who was disappointed when they sold up the family business earlier this year. At least the name lives on for now.


----------



## Beebo (3 Dec 2021)

It’s all to play for with 2 races left.

The Saudi circuit looks a bit dicey. It’s over 6km long with lots of very fast curves and walls.

Martin Brundle took a car round and described it as Silverstone speeds with Monaco sized run off areas.

A safety car or two is almost guaranteed, and with a 6km circuit it could be very easy to get caught out in the wrong place on track.


----------



## Jody (3 Dec 2021)

Beebo said:


> Martin Brundle took a car round and described it as Silverstone speeds with Monaco sized run off areas.



Flav has a plan


----------



## Beebo (3 Dec 2021)

Jody said:


> Flav has a plan
> 
> View attachment 620379


You’re not suggesting cheating!!


----------



## dave r (3 Dec 2021)




----------



## Jody (3 Dec 2021)

Beebo said:


> You’re not suggesting cheating!



Not I.

Flav wouldn't do such a thing either. He's as honest as the day is long.


----------



## Beebo (4 Dec 2021)

First bit of controversy. Hamilton called to stewards for driving through double waved yellows in practice. 
But it seems to have been a technical error with the flags “waved” for less than 1 second and not visible to the driver. 
So no sanction.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (4 Dec 2021)

Jody said:


> Not I.
> 
> Flav wouldn't do such a thing either. He's as honest as the day is long.


Short days at this time of year.


----------



## dave r (4 Dec 2021)

Someone was trying too hard.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (4 Dec 2021)

He's fast over a lap, but he's had a very large number of GP starts and still isn't getting anywhere close to Lewis's smarts as a racer. 2/10ths is a lifetime - (metaphorically) kick in the clutch and coast over the line for pole.


----------



## Reynard (4 Dec 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> He's fast over a lap, but he's had a very large number of GP starts and still isn't getting anywhere close to Lewis's smarts as a racer. 2/10ths is a lifetime - (metaphorically) kick in the clutch and coast over the line for pole.



This is exactly it.

You can be as fast as you like, but if you haven't got the nous to go with it... And Lewis has got one heck of a racing brain, right up there with Lauda and Prost.

Going back to the touring car analogy, Ash Sutton is a lot like Max Verstappen. But this year he's toned down the aggressiveness and bided his time when he's needed to in races - and he walked to the BTCC title.

Knowing when to push and when to hold back is the difference between the good and the great.


----------



## Beebo (4 Dec 2021)

He was so close in turn 2 he basically brushed the wall. Madness. 

View: https://youtu.be/Ckvlh0CxJRQ


----------



## classic33 (4 Dec 2021)

Are Mercedes still sore over their "25 place penalty"?
Hamilton's steering wheel carrying "25", not 44.


----------



## icowden (5 Dec 2021)

classic33 said:


> Are Mercedes still sore over their "25 place penalty"?
> Hamilton's steering wheel carrying "25", not 44.



This is going to be interesting tomorrow. I am envisioning safety cars...


----------



## Reynard (5 Dec 2021)

I, for one, would not like to be on the red Bull engineering team this evening...

Do they stick with the gearbox, keep third on the grid and risk ending up with a box of neutrals like Leclerc did in Monaco, or do they replace it, take a five place drop and then have to rely on Max keeping his nose clean?


----------



## dave r (5 Dec 2021)

icowden said:


> This is going to be interesting tomorrow. I am envisioning safety cars...



I suspect the safety car driver will be busy, I wouldn't be surprised to see red flags at some point.


----------



## Beebo (5 Dec 2021)

dave r said:


> I suspect the safety car driver will be busy, I wouldn't be surprised to see red flags at some point.


It’s going to keep the pack tightly bunched and people will get caught out with pit stops.


----------



## figbat (5 Dec 2021)

classic33 said:


> Are Mercedes still sore over their "25 place penalty"?
> Hamilton's steering wheel carrying "25", not 44.


No. Well, maybe but that’s not why there is 25 on the steering wheel - it’s been there a while.


----------



## dave r (5 Dec 2021)

Beebo said:


> It’s going to keep the pack tightly bunched and people will get caught out with pit stops.



It looks like it could be an entertaining race.


----------



## Jenkins (5 Dec 2021)

I have no idea what is going on with the driving in today's race, but it looks to be setting up an interseting final race of the season.


----------



## Beebo (5 Dec 2021)

Verstappen made some great moves, the restart from 3rd to 1st was a championship move. 
But he lets himself down with crazy moves and stupid antics. He’s very easy to dislike.


----------



## carpiste (5 Dec 2021)

That was a great watch. The last race is going to be a doozy!


----------



## figbat (5 Dec 2021)

Beebo said:


> Verstappen made some great moves, the restart from 3rd to 1st was a championship move.
> But he lets himself down with crazy moves and stupid antics. He’s very easy to dislike.


Took the words out of my mouth.
Of course let’s not forget that his qualifying crash was championship losing too.


----------



## Reynard (5 Dec 2021)

Beebo said:


> Verstappen made some great moves, the restart from 3rd to 1st was a championship move.
> But he lets himself down with crazy moves and stupid antics. He’s very easy to dislike.



Was saying the same to the parental unit - that he falls into the same category as Senna and the elder of the Schumacher brothers. Namely quite happy to stuff someone into the wall if it's of benefit to him.

He's a good driver, but he's turning himself into a pantomime villain - when to be honest he really doesn't have to. It's not a good look.


----------



## Tom B (6 Dec 2021)

What to do with the Saudi track for next year?


----------



## figbat (6 Dec 2021)

Verstappen ruled to have braked to avoid crossing the DRS line first, thus causing the collision. Lewis also wanted to stay behind for the DRS line - which isn’t forbidden (there’s no rule saying you have to overtake just because you can). 10 seconds and 2 penalty points for Max; no change to the result but he’s on 7 points now (12 month rolling total) and he and Horner have been exposed as lying little weasels.


----------



## Illaveago (6 Dec 2021)

figbat said:


> Verstappen ruled to have braked to avoid crossing the DRS line first, thus causing the collision. Lewis also wanted to stay behind for the DRS line - which isn’t forbidden (there’s no rule saying you have to overtake just because you can). 10 seconds and 2 penalty points for Max; no change to the result but he’s on 7 points now (12 month rolling total) and he and Horner have been exposed as lying little weasels.


I thought CH looked a bit red faced and a bit subdued in the post race chat . I think he knew what the telemetry revealed about Max braking .


----------



## Bonefish Blues (6 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> I thought CH looked a bit red faced and a bit subdued in the post race chat . I think he knew what the telemetry revealed about Max braking .


He initially said 'no braking'. He then said 'no hard braking'. Telemetry shows hard braking - but no matter because the penalty illustrates it's only a minor infraction (that in any other Formula would be Black Flagged). Someone will get badly hurt, or worse.

I understand that DC has been further bearing out my previous comments about his never, ever having criticised Red Bull - even in the face if this shitstorm.


----------



## Beebo (6 Dec 2021)

The rules around giving a place back need firming up. 
You can’t give a place back and then immediately retake it, it’s a nonsense.
I fear that Vetstappen will do the same again next week as he nothing to lose now. It’s quite clear to anyone watching that he has no intention of being overtaken cleanly.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (6 Dec 2021)

Beebo said:


> The rules around giving a place back need firming up.
> You can’t give a place back and then immediately retake it, it’s a nonsense.
> I fear that Vetstappen will do the same again next week as he nothing to lose now. It’s quite clear to anyone watching that he has no intention of being overtaken cleanly.


Of course he will. He has nothing - zero - to lose*. He was dangerous before, not sure what it makes him now.

ETA
*And everything to gain. Lewis beats him, he wins WDC. Lewis and he dnf and Max wins the WDC


----------



## Illaveago (6 Dec 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> He initially said 'no braking'. He then said 'no hard braking'. Telemetry shows hard braking - but no matter because the penalty illustrates it's only a minor infraction (that in any other Formula would be Black Flagged). Someone will get badly hurt, or worse.
> 
> I understand that DC has been further bearing out my previous comments about his never, ever having criticised Red Bull - even in the face if this shitstorm.


I was just thinking that DC should wear a RB uniform so that people knew that his comments were unbiased . 
His comments about MV making a brave move down the inside into the corner was nonsense. Max knows that a collision taking out Lewis and himself would benefit him .


----------



## Illaveago (6 Dec 2021)

I think the time penalty should be imposed on the start of the next race as it had no effect yesterday .


----------



## BrumJim (6 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> I think the time penalty should be imposed on the start of the next race as it had no effect yesterday .


The only sensible option is to deduct MV one point so that the championship is decided at the last race on the track, not in the steward's room.

Although there will be howls of disingenuous protest from the Red Bull team should that happen.


----------



## Illaveago (6 Dec 2021)

BrumJim said:


> The only sensible option is to deduct MV one point so that the championship is decided at the last race on the track, not in the steward's room.
> 
> Although there will be howls of disingenuous protest from the Red Bull team should that happen.


It would be fair to declare the win at Spa to be nul and void as it wasn't a race.


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (6 Dec 2021)

In my opinion Max has realised that if he goes into a corner and Lewis is in front then, if there is a run off area, he can just brake far later than normal and Lewis - who brakes normally - will automatically drop level with him

OK - now Max cannot make the corner and overshoots - but Lewis has to avoid the collision so does the same
Max then accelerates away - Max is still leading

They really need to stop him doing that - one day he will kill of badly injure someone with that sort of trick

My main problem is that he doesn;t seem to feel there is anything wrong
'Just let us race' is his mantra
but he uses the rules how he wants and refuses to give way even if has already been passed
Just damn dangerous IMO


----------



## matticus (6 Dec 2021)

Beebo said:


> The rules around giving a place back need firming up.
> You can’t give a place back and then immediately retake it, it’s a nonsense.


- Agreed.
- Well ... you can't blame a driver for exploiting loopholes. Not at this level! Lewis was in the perfect position to defend the corner.

It did seem outside the "spirit" of the rule, but then drivers win a lot of races with such tricks. (I've seen quite a few shenanigans in/around the pit-lane where the driver using "common sense" lost out.)
If you want to consistently apply " the spirit" then it seems harsh to punish Max after he gave the place back towards the end of the race (un-requested). But it was all a big mess, so we could nit-pick forever :P

I'm enjoying this spat. Mainly because I find it difficult to like either of them much! 
Given Lewis' level of experience (and age) he ought to act a bit more maturely in the car. Asking his team to check whether a barrier was *really* damaged? Grow up kid, they've got better things to be doing!
(he's still driving more maturely than Max, mind ... )


----------



## Bonefish Blues (6 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> It would be fair to declare the win at Spa to be nul and void as it wasn't a race.


They would then be dead level in every respect going into the last race.


----------



## Illaveago (6 Dec 2021)

I liked the comment by unbiased DC saying that Max's qualifying lap would have been Megga if he hadn't hit the barrier. If he had slowed for the corner he would have probably made it but then not set a fast time .


----------



## icowden (6 Dec 2021)

matticus said:


> Given Lewis' level of experience (and age) he ought to act a bit more maturely in the car. Asking his team to check whether a barrier was *really* damaged?



You don't think it was odd to have a safety car for several laps, then to red flag? 

Personally I think it's Red Bull getting petty. Horner saying "well you got driver of the day Max, looks like the fans have your back even if the FIA don't". 
A bit pathetic I thought, especially as this years rules seemed to be designed entirely to disadvantage Mercedes.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (6 Dec 2021)

icowden said:


> You don't think it was odd to have a safety car for several laps, then to red flag?
> 
> Personally I think it's Red Bull getting petty. Horner saying "well you got driver of the day Max, looks like the fans have your back even if the FIA don't".
> A bit pathetic I thought, especially as this years rules seemed to be designed entirely to disadvantage Mercedes.


Infantilism. CH hasn't done his reputation much good this year.


----------



## classic33 (6 Dec 2021)

icowden said:


> *You don't think it was odd to have a safety car for several laps, then to red flag? *
> 
> Personally I think it's Red Bull getting petty. Horner saying "well you got driver of the day Max, looks like the fans have your back even if the FIA don't".
> A bit pathetic I thought, especially as this years rules seemed to be designed entirely to disadvantage Mercedes.


It was decided a crane was required, on track, to remove and replace the damaged section of barrier. This after they'd been trying to fix it under the safety car.
The crane would have been side on, to every other vehicle on the track.


----------



## matticus (6 Dec 2021)

icowden said:


> You don't think it was odd to have a safety car for several laps, then to red flag?


My point was that the team can't do anything about it, and certainly don't know what was wrong with the barrier!

But now you ask: no, it seems a reasonable sequence of events, assuming the barrier needed fixing. I say that as an armchair viewer who hasn't read the rulebook on this, but I don't recall any discussion of procedural issues. Lewis doubted it needed fixing - how could he know otherwise?


----------



## figbat (6 Dec 2021)

Interesting that Lewis was “nearly given a black and white flag” for defending the corner on the second switcheroo, where he clearly knew what Max was up to and put him in his place (ie, off the track onto the run-off). Brazil established that this was acceptable racing so good for him.

Max handed over the lead three times. That’s three times that somebody thought his tactics were unfair.


----------



## matticus (6 Dec 2021)

Interesting interview with Horner on Friday R5 (IIRC): he was saying both teams/drivers are using everything they can, including saying Mercedes were no longer sending a guy out to hold the fuel hoses out of the way when a neighbour's car was exiting. :O


----------



## figbat (6 Dec 2021)

I think Toto is winning the battle of mind-games.


----------



## derrick (6 Dec 2021)

figbat said:


> Max handed over the lead three times. That’s three times that somebody thought his tactics were unfair.


He is a boy who will not learn.


----------



## classic33 (6 Dec 2021)

matticus said:


> Interesting interview with Horner on Friday R5 (IIRC): he was saying both teams/drivers are using everything they can, including saying Mercedes were no longer sending a guy out to hold the fuel hoses out of the way when a neighbour's car was exiting. :O


Refuelling hasn't been allowed for a few years.


----------



## icowden (6 Dec 2021)

matticus said:


> If you want to consistently apply " the spirit" then it seems harsh to punish Max after he gave the place back towards the end of the race (un-requested). But it was all a big mess, so we could nit-pick forever :P



He was punished for bad driving, and for deliberately braking so that Hamilton went into the back of him. He had been ordered to let Hamilton past, Hamilton hadn't got the message yet, but even so, whacking his brakes on was a deliberate and dangerous move. He did that because he was told by RB to let Hamilton past "strategically" - i.e. in a position where he could use DRS to retake the lead - so the team yet again going against the spirit of what he they had been told to do by the stewards, especially as he knew he wouldn't otherwise have the pace to overtake. He gave the place back as an attempt to avoid further punishment rather than out of the goodness of his heart.

Of course, the problem is now that he can do a Schumacher in the final race and walk away with the WDC...


----------



## derrick (6 Dec 2021)

classic33 said:


> Refuelling hasn't been allowed for a few years.


Just shows how much bollocks is posted about F1


----------



## Alex321 (6 Dec 2021)

classic33 said:


> Refuelling hasn't been allowed for a few years.


I didn't hear the interview, but I suspect he just said "hoses" rather than fuel hoses, and would have been referring to the compressor hoses for the guns.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (6 Dec 2021)

derrick said:


> Just shows how much bollocks is posted about F1


Poster slightly mistaken - it's the air hoses, but basically correct


----------



## matticus (6 Dec 2021)

Alex321 said:


> I didn't hear the interview, but I suspect he just said "hoses" rather than fuel hoses, and would have been referring to the compressor hoses for the guns.


ha ha. Yes exactly. Thankyou!


----------



## matticus (6 Dec 2021)

derrick said:


> Just shows how much bollocks is posted about F1


Ouch. Tough crowd ...


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (6 Dec 2021)

Horner is sounding really pathetic this year - I have lost loads of respect for him

Is Max takes Lewis out next week and ends up winning - Then I am fully expecting him to come up with a load of cynical stuff about "the championship is won over a season not the last race"
And if Lewis wins - and especially if Max has gone off and looses loads of point - then he will be moaning about how mean and crule they are to bully poor little Max

like a lot of self centred people if they moan about someone doing something bad - they are probably at least trying to do it themselves


----------



## 13 rider (6 Dec 2021)

Let's hope the championship is settled with fair race and dosnt end up with both cars off at turn one aka Senna ,Prost gifting the championship to Max curtisty of more wins .
In my opinion it's been Hamilton avoiding Max in all the close calls over the last few races as he's the one behind and both not finishing favours Max . I do think it's got ugly and political this year so let's have a epic fair race to decided it


----------



## matticus (6 Dec 2021)

classic33 said:


> Refuelling hasn't been allowed for a few years.


I presume you mean during a race?


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (6 Dec 2021)

13 rider said:


> Let's hope the championship is settled with fair race and dosnt end up with both cars off at turn one aka Senna ,Prost gifting the championship to Max curtisty of more wins .
> In my opinion it's been Hamilton avoiding Max in all the close calls over the last few races as he's the one behind and both not finishing favours Max . I do think it's got ugly and political this year so let's have a epic fair race to decided it


Lewis commented on that yesterday - said something like "I don't mind that it is always me avoiding collisions" - can't remember that exact phrasing but it was maybe a bit more subtle.
Point is that a faar race can;t happen if both drivers don't race fair
and by that I mean - making every attempt to keep the car inside the white lines - which Max seems to think are optional - as he specifically said yesterday


----------



## classic33 (6 Dec 2021)

matticus said:


> I presume you mean during a race?


Aye.


----------



## classic33 (6 Dec 2021)

With his own team mate. Russell may just have to watch out next year.
Hamilton and Rosberg crash: Who was to blame? – RaceFans 
Lewis Hamilton wins Austrian Grand Prix after Nico Rosberg collision - BBC Sport

Another Red Bull. Albon this time
Lewis Hamilton penalised for collision as Valtteri Bottas wins in Austrian GP - BBC Sport


----------



## Reynard (6 Dec 2021)

derrick said:


> He is a boy who will not learn.



Maybe more like he doesn't want to, because it gives him an advantage.

I have to admit I'm rather enjoying the needle. It's been a long time since we've had that in F1, and having grown up watching Prost v Piquet, Prost v Arnoux, Senna v Prost, Mansell v Piquet, Prost v Mansell, I've kind of rather missed that.

F1 needs its characters - both good and bad, and too many of the drivers coming into the sport are stamped from the same corporate mould.

But even I'll admit that yesterday's show had me half expecting Widow Twankey wearing colanders for boobs appearing out from behind the hoardings in the paddock and shouting "he's behind you!"


----------



## The Central Scrutinizer (6 Dec 2021)

Watched it live yesterday and was one of the best races i've seen.
Just watched the highlights on C4 and I have never noticed it before until someone mentioned it on here but David Coulthard does seem a bit biased towards Red Bull.
With all their technology why aren't the communications better?Surely the race director should have told both teams simultaneously about slowing down and swapping positions?
If Verstappen decides to take out Hamilton on purpose could this lead to a black flag or could it be just a disqualification for the first race next season?Black flags do not seem that common.


----------



## Illaveago (6 Dec 2021)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> Horner is sounding really pathetic this year - I have lost loads of respect for him
> 
> Is Max takes Lewis out next week and ends up winning - Then I am fully expecting him to come up with a load of cynical stuff about "the championship is won over a season not the last race"
> And if Lewis wins - and especially if Max has gone off and looses loads of point - then he will be moaning about how mean and crule they are to bully poor little Max
> ...


My BIL was saying that on Saturday . I used to listen to what CH used to say but not any more . I think he is drinking too much of the product they are advertising .
I read a bit about him saying that there is far too much regulation this year and that people should just be allowed to race . I think it was he who complained about LH rear wing in Brazil and is still fuming about it . There should be track limits and they shouldn't be exploited in a way to either gain or maintain a place .


----------



## Bonefish Blues (6 Dec 2021)

The Central Scrutinizer said:


> Watched it live yesterday and was one of the best races i've seen.
> Just watched the highlights on C4 and I have never noticed it before until someone mentioned it on here but David Coulthard does seem a bit biased towards Red Bull.


Sorry - you'll never unsee it now, I'm afraid


----------



## Alex321 (6 Dec 2021)

The Central Scrutinizer said:


> Watched it live yesterday and was one of the best races i've seen.
> Just watched the highlights on C4 and I have never noticed it before until someone mentioned it on here but David Coulthard does seem a bit biased towards Red Bull.
> With all their technology why aren't the communications better?Surely the race director should have told both teams simultaneously about slowing down and swapping positions?
> If Verstappen decides to take out Hamilton on purpose could this lead to a black flag or could it be just a disqualification for the first race next season?Black flags do not seem that common.


It isn't the race director who says they have to give the place back. It is the stewards who decide to penalise somebody if they think the driver should have given it back but didn't.

It is the drivers and/or their teams who make the decision whether to do so, based on whether they think it likely they will be penalised if they don't.


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (6 Dec 2021)

I think it's funny how people notice DC's bias towards Red Bull but seem not to notice Sky Sports have their faces buried deep in Hamilton's sphincter. Hamilton and Verstappen are both dicks - when was the last likeable world champion?


----------



## Reynard (6 Dec 2021)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> I think it's funny how people notice DC's bias towards Red Bull but seem not to notice Sky Sports have their faces buried deep in Hamilton's sphincter. Hamilton and Verstappen are both dicks - when was the last likeable world champion?



Which is why I listen to the races on Radio 5 Live.


----------



## figbat (6 Dec 2021)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> …when was the last likeable world champion?


Jenson.


----------



## Illaveago (6 Dec 2021)

Penalties should be what they are meant to be . Verstappen's 10 second penalty yesterday served no purpose at all ! He still finished in second place . A few races back he was given a penalty of starting at the back of the grid and so had a new engine fitted which negated that penalty . It should have been carried over to the next race .


----------



## carpiste (6 Dec 2021)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> I think it's funny how people notice DC's bias towards Red Bull but seem not to notice Sky Sports have their faces buried deep in Hamilton's sphincter. Hamilton and Verstappen are both dicks - when was the last likeable world champion?


I think Sky go down the route that Hamilton is English. Like the English footy team or rugby team or any English team. We would expect them to support "our" guys. Nigel Mansell and of course James Hunt were both pretty likeable. And if I`m honest I quite like Hamilton.


----------



## Beebo (6 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> Penalties should be what they are meant to be . Verstappen's 10 second penalty yesterday served no purpose at all ! He still finished in second place . A few races back he was given a penalty of starting at the back of the grid and so had a new engine fitted which negated that penalty . It should have been carried over to the next race .


It doesn’t work like that. 
Hamilton got 10 seconds at silverstone and still won. 
Verstappen couldn’t do the fastest lap because of the time penalty so it was a sort of punishment.


----------



## Reynard (6 Dec 2021)

carpiste said:


> I think Sky go down the route that Hamilton is English. Like the English footy team or rugby team or any English team. We would expect them to support "our" guys. Nigel Mansell and of course James Hunt were both pretty likeable. And if I`m honest I quite like Hamilton.



Mansell? Likeable? 

His own team manager at Williams still calls him "a horrible little man"


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (6 Dec 2021)

carpiste said:


> I think Sky go down the route that Hamilton is English. Like the English footy team or rugby team or any English team. We would expect them to support "our" guys. Nigel Mansell and of course James Hunt were both pretty likeable. And if I`m honest I quite like Hamilton.


I think these guys are "likeable" because the TV guys give them the soft soap treatment then hype them up.


----------



## carpiste (6 Dec 2021)

Reynard said:


> Mansell? Likeable?
> 
> His own team manager at Williams still calls him "a horrible little man"


I`m thinking of the public persona rather than his attitude within the team ( behind scenes)


----------



## Reynard (6 Dec 2021)

carpiste said:


> I`m thinking of the public persona rather than his attitude within the team ( behind scenes)



Hmmm, even his public persona was that of a moaning whingebag.  Although I will say, that by the time I encountered him around the circuits, he was trying to grease his sons through the junior formulae. I kept my distance (Mansellmania was something that passed me by), but some of my colleagues on the fenceline were less than enamoured.

It's funny really - when people who don't know me very well (happens often in the cat fancy when you steward for whoever needs a steward) find out I'm a massive motorsport geekette, they always make the assumption that "oh, you must've been a fan of Our Nige."

Confuses the hell out of them when you say no.


----------



## FishFright (6 Dec 2021)

The Central Scrutinizer said:


> Watched it live yesterday and was one of *the best races i've seen.*
> Just watched the highlights on C4 and I have never noticed it before until someone mentioned it on here but David Coulthard does seem a bit biased towards Red Bull.
> With all their technology why aren't the communications better?Surely the race director should have told both teams simultaneously about slowing down and swapping positions?
> If Verstappen decides to take out Hamilton on purpose could this lead to a black flag or could it be just a disqualification for the first race next season?Black flags do not seem that common.



Really ? I thought it was a huge embarrassment to motorsport, thanks partly to Masi's patent Random Rules Generator. 

The last race will be chaos unless one of the protagonists goes out early due to mechanical failure . I can see the results being decided in court like in the Balestre era.


----------



## Illaveago (7 Dec 2021)

Reynard said:


> Hmmm, even his public persona was that of a moaning whingebag.  Although I will say, that by the time I encountered him around the circuits, he was trying to grease his sons through the junior formulae. I kept my distance (Mansellmania was something that passed me by), but some of my colleagues on the fenceline were less than enamoured.
> 
> It's funny really - when people who don't know me very well (happens often in the cat fancy when you steward for whoever needs a steward) find out I'm a massive motorsport geekette, they always make the assumption that "oh, you must've been a fan of Our Nige."
> 
> Confuses the hell out of them when you say no.


Do they suspect when you issue time penalties ?


----------



## Illaveago (7 Dec 2021)

Beebo said:


> It doesn’t work like that.
> Hamilton got 10 seconds at silverstone and still won.
> Verstappen couldn’t do the fastest lap because of the time penalty so it was a sort of punishment.


IIRC LH time penalty was served in the pits, I may be wrong . Verstappen didn't know of his 10 second time penalty as it was applied after the race when it was discovered that he had applied his brakes causing the crash. This only came to light after studying the telemetry .
The reason why he didn't set a fastest lap was that his tyres were starting to go off. 
If a 10 second penalty had been applied and announced during the race it might have made Ocon and Bottas to press harder to perhaps oust him from 2nd place .


----------



## matticus (7 Dec 2021)

carpiste said:


> I think Sky go down the route that Hamilton is English. Like the English footy team or rugby team or any English team. We would expect them to support "our" guys. Nigel Mansell and of course James Hunt were both pretty likeable. And if I`m honest I quite like Hamilton.


Can't believe you've missed out Damon!?!

The loveliest man in motorsport. Evvs. (Although young Jenson is a close second.)


----------



## icowden (7 Dec 2021)

I've never really understood why people don't like Hamilton. He seems a nice enough chap. He's doing what he can to promote inclusion and diversity and speaking out (maybe it's that). I thought the driver's approach in Saudi with Hamilton wearing the rainbow helmet and Vettel organising a women only carting event was great. Sometimes he disappears up his own posterior a bit, but he seems likeable to me. Of course he has some arrogance, but you don't get to be the best in the world by saying "no, after you...".


----------



## glasgowcyclist (7 Dec 2021)

What I don't get about the Verstappen/Lewis collision is the latter's explanation for not immediately passing.

He is a racer who will seize on any opportunity to overtake, yet here (and stating that he hadn't received the information that Verstappen was giving him back the place) he held back because 'he wasn't sure what was happening'. That doesn't ring true to me. I think he knew Max's strategy was to exploit the DRS activation line and he wasn't falling for it and then Max braked hard, causing the collision.

Like I say, I consider Max as being at fault but I'm not convinced by Lewis's story.


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (7 Dec 2021)

glasgowcyclist said:


> What I don't get about the Verstappen/Lewis collision is the latter's explanation for not immediately passing.
> 
> He is a racer who will seize on any opportunity to overtake, yet here (and stating that he hadn't received the information that Verstappen was giving him back the place) he held back because 'he wasn't sure what was happening'. That doesn't ring true to me. I think he knew Max's strategy was to exploit the DRS activation line and he wasn't falling for it and then Max braked hard, causing the collision.
> 
> Like I say, I consider Max as being at fault but I'm not convinced by Lewis's story.


I agree to an extent
but remember that Max was in the middle of the track - and not travelling in a totally straight line

I wonder if Lewis was worried that he would pass - and onece he was committed to a side Max would force him over to the wall

excessive
but ..............


----------



## figbat (7 Dec 2021)

I think Lewis has admitted to wanting to capitalise on the DRS line - as I said above, there's no rule saying you have to overtake if you can but there are rules about driver behaviour and reckless/unpredictable driving. Max was swerving about a bit, mid-track and hit the brakes quite hard outside of a braking zone - there's no way that would be expected unless you know that he was giving the place back. Even then I would have expected Lewis to try and stay behind until he had the best strategic advantage of passing (ie after the DRS line).

I believe there should be a rule that forbids overtaking at the corner following a mandatory place swap.


----------



## matticus (7 Dec 2021)

glasgowcyclist said:


> What I don't get about the Verstappen/Lewis collision is the latter's explanation for not immediately passing.
> 
> He is a racer who will seize on any opportunity to overtake, yet here (and stating that he hadn't received the information that Verstappen was giving him back the place) he held back because 'he wasn't sure what was happening'. That doesn't ring true to me. * I think he knew Max's strategy was to exploit the DRS activation line and he wasn't falling for it *and then Max braked hard, causing the collision.
> 
> Like I say, I consider Max as being at fault but I'm not convinced by Lewis's story.


Yes - that's the widely held view.

I think even an FIA/steward guy included this in a statement?


----------



## Bonefish Blues (7 Dec 2021)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> I agree to an extent
> but remember that Max was in the middle of the track - and not travelling in a totally straight line
> 
> I wonder if Lewis was worried that he would pass - and onece he was committed to a side Max would force him over to the wall
> ...


The level of mistrust is high. Remember he hadn't had a notification from Mercedes yet so yes, he was absolutely being as cautious as he felt necessary (and sure in the knowledge that he'd be able to pass on track later due to the tyre mismatch)

He later twigged what Max was doing v-a-v DRS I think.


----------



## dave r (7 Dec 2021)

icowden said:


> I've never really understood why people don't like Hamilton. He seems a nice enough chap. He's doing what he can to promote inclusion and diversity and speaking out (maybe it's that). I thought the driver's approach in Saudi with Hamilton wearing the rainbow helmet and Vettel organising a women only carting event was great. Sometimes he disappears up his own posterior a bit, but he seems likeable to me. Of course he has some arrogance, but you don't get to be the best in the world by saying "no, after you...".



I don't know what it is with Hamilton but I'm not a fan of his, there's something about him that I don't like, I'm not sure what it is though, he's a good driver but I can't like him.


----------



## glasgowcyclist (7 Dec 2021)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> I agree to an extent
> but remember that Max was in the middle of the track - and not travelling in a totally straight line



That's a feature of practically every overtake on a straight in F1. The driver in front makes it hard for the overtaker to know which line to take and has to commit as late as possible.

And look at the speed differential, Hamilton is catching him hand over fist. I recall the C4 commentator's alarmed reaction at the sudden slowing of Verstappen, that he maybe had a problem with the car. Hamilton's refusal to overtake made no sense unless he realised what was going on, contrary to his subsequent statement.


View: https://youtu.be/Km4em3VHTnE


----------



## glasgowcyclist (7 Dec 2021)

matticus said:


> Yes - that's the widely held view.
> 
> I think even an FIA/steward guy included this in a statement?



This report from GP Fans shows the stewards were given the same story of Hamilton not knowing what was happening (shown in bold).

_A stewards' report read: "At turn 21 the driver of car 33 [Verstappen] was given the instruction to give back a position to car 44 [Hamilton] and was told by the team to do so 'strategically'._​​_"Car 33 slowed significantly at turn 26. However, it was obvious that neither driver wanted to take the lead prior to DRS detection line three._​​_"The driver of car 33 stated that he was wondering why car 44 had not overtaken and *the driver of car 44 stated that, not having been aware at that stage that car 33 was giving the position back, was unaware of the reason car 33 was slowing*._​​_"In deciding to penalise the driver of car 33, the key point for the stewards was that the driver of car 33 then braked suddenly [69 bar] and significantly, resulting in 2.4g deceleration._​​_"Whilst accepting that the driver of car 44 could have overtaken car 33 when that car first slowed, we understand why he [and the driver of Car 33] did not wish to be the first to cross the DRS._​​_"However, the sudden braking by the driver of car 33 was determined by the stewards to be erratic and hence the predominant cause of the collision._​


----------



## figbat (7 Dec 2021)

glasgowcyclist said:


> That's a feature of practically every overtake on a straight in F1. The driver in front makes it hard for the overtaker to know which line to take and has to commit as late as possible.


Yes, but that is in the context of a driver defending their position and trying to prevent an overtake. Max was supposed to be allowing and facilitating an overtake, not making it "hard for the overtaker to know which line to take". If he is "making it hard for the overtaker to know which line to take" in this context then he is driving erratically and hence unsafely.

Besides, if he was trying to allow an overtake, why did he then take off after the collision and not give the place back?

PS - kudos to whoever built Lewis's front wing! It took a beating on a couple of occasions but stayed attached and effective.


----------



## matticus (7 Dec 2021)

Good find!

This was the bit I was specifically referring to:



glasgowcyclist said:


> "Whilst accepting that the driver of car 44 could have overtaken car 33 when that car first slowed, we understand why he [and the driver of Car 33] *did not wish to be the first to cross the DRS*.


----------



## glasgowcyclist (7 Dec 2021)

matticus said:


> Good find!
> 
> This was the bit I was specifically referring to:



Hamilton can't have it both ways; he either did or didn't realise that Verstappen was giving him the place back 'strategically'.


----------



## figbat (7 Dec 2021)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Hamilton can't have it both ways; he either did or didn't realise that Verstappen was giving him the place back 'strategically'.


Regardless of the situation and what he did or didn't know, he would still want to be behind Max at the DRS line. Passing Max before the line is a sure-fire way to allow Max past on the following straight (as we subsequently saw). So not knowing what was going on it is reasonable to expect a car not to brake well outside of a braking zone and it is reasonable to want to play the DRS game.


----------



## icowden (7 Dec 2021)

figbat said:


> Regardless of the situation and what he did or didn't know, he would still want to be behind Max at the DRS line. Passing Max before the line is a sure-fire way to allow Max past on the following straight (as we subsequently saw). So not knowing what was going on it is reasonable to expect a car not to brake well outside of a braking zone and it is reasonable to want to play the DRS game.



Also, if you look at the speeds - Hamilton is expecting certain behaviour from the driver in front. He isn't expecting to overtake there, and therefore he expects a certain pattern of braking from Max. Max does something odd and Lewis reacts as quickly as he can, diving to the left, just not quite quickly enough for the hard braking that Verstappen is doing.


----------



## glasgowcyclist (7 Dec 2021)

figbat said:


> Regardless of the situation and what he did or didn't know, he would still want to be behind Max at the DRS line.


Yes, up to a point. I've never seen anyone slow so much before the DRS activation line, either in this or any other race. There will be a certain amount of cat & mouse but not to the extent of dropping 5 gears!

I'm not that bothered whether he was aware or not, because I blame Verstappen for the collision, but Hamilton can't play both excuses at the same time, he has to pick a reason and stick to it.


----------



## Reynard (7 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> Do they suspect when you issue time penalties ?



No... I've not been caught. Yet.


----------



## Reynard (7 Dec 2021)

matticus said:


> Can't believe you've missed out Damon!?!
> 
> The loveliest man in motorsport. Evvs. (Although young Jenson is a close second.)


----------



## The Central Scrutinizer (7 Dec 2021)

FishFright said:


> Really ? I thought it was a huge embarrassment to motorsport, thanks partly to Masi's patent Random Rules Generator.
> 
> The last race will be chaos unless one of the protagonists goes out early due to mechanical failure . I can see the results being decided in court like in the Balestre era.


Yeah…Really!
I enjoyed it because it was incident packed,the lead changing places and knowing that Hamilton had to win to stand any chance of retaining the F1 title.
I accept we are all different and you didn’t see it that way.


----------



## icowden (7 Dec 2021)

The Central Scrutinizer said:


> Yeah…Really!
> I enjoyed it because it was incident packed,the lead changing places and knowing that Hamilton had to win to stand any chance of retaining the F1 title.
> I accept we are all different and you didn’t see it that way.



Can I vote for a middle ground? I thought it was a great race, but some of the "happenings" really need to be looked at (like the negotiations with the race director for example who should have told Horner to buzz off and mind his own business).


----------



## Bonefish Blues (7 Dec 2021)

Peter Windsor, who's got better credentials than most:


View: https://youtu.be/dzOifmr8yfU


Or shorter, Driver61, who's also developing a good reputation for clarity & impartiality:


View: https://youtu.be/F1XfFdwutSU


----------



## matticus (7 Dec 2021)

Hilarious:


> Verstappen: Penalised Saudi Arabian GP move "was fine in Brazil"
> By:
> Filip Cleeren
> Dec 7, 2021, 8:20 AM
> Max Verstappen is struggling to understand why he got penalised for running Lewis Hamilton off the track in the Saudi Arabian Grand Prix after not being sanctioned for a similar incident in Brazil.


----------



## FishFright (7 Dec 2021)

The Central Scrutinizer said:


> Yeah…Really!
> I enjoyed it because it was incident packed,the lead changing places and knowing that Hamilton had to win to stand any chance of retaining the F1 title.
> I accept we are all different and you didn’t see it that way.



Fair enough


----------



## Illaveago (7 Dec 2021)

matticus said:


> Hilarious:


They should make it clear that the run off areas which he believes to be part of the circuit are out of bounds and only to be used for safety purposes . Using them as a means to overtake or to remain in the lead should come with very stiff penalties .


----------



## Illaveago (7 Dec 2021)

DC's comment on Verstappen's brave dive into the corner to overtake Ocon and Lewis was utter tosh ! It looks more like an attempt to take Lewis out . Verstappen might have ended up with a tank slapper but it looks like he purposely drove across the front of Lewis cutting across the second bend .


----------



## Illaveago (8 Dec 2021)

I was thinking about good drivers and the names of Johnny Herbert, Lando Norris and Billy Munger came to mind .

I think David Coulthard and Mark Webber have gone over to the dark side !


----------



## Reynard (8 Dec 2021)

For a non-F1 driver, one of the best eggs out there is Colin White - the pro-am Ginetta champion. Although I still haven't quite forgiven him for pouring champagne down the back of my jacket.  And people might not like Jason Plato as a driver, but as a bloke, he's a blast. Actually, his dad is even more outrageous...  Tim Harvey is another really lovely person.

F1 drivers... For me, has to be none other than "The Headmaster"


----------



## Illaveago (8 Dec 2021)

I couldn't believe it! 
The BBC have put Max Verstappen up for the international sports star of the year award !


----------



## derrick (8 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> I couldn't believe it!
> The BBC have put Max Verstappen up for the international sports star of the year award !


what else would you expect from them.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (8 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> I couldn't believe it!
> The BBC have put Max Verstappen up for the international sports star of the year award !


He was voted driver of the day on Sunday 

Tiff Needell has just described him as an old-fashioned 'dirty driver' which made me laugh after others' pussyfooting around.


----------



## Reynard (8 Dec 2021)

I've always wondered what Max would be like if he was dropped into the BTCC grid.

Or even better, something like Superstox.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (8 Dec 2021)

Reynard said:


> I've always wondered what Max would be like if he was dropped into the BTCC grid.
> 
> Or even better, something like Superstox.


I think that he'd be welcomed with open arms and a robust nerfing at every corner


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (8 Dec 2021)

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/villeneuve-jeddah-f1-battle-was-rental-karting/6859830/

Interesting comments from Villeneuve that echo some views expressed here. I agree with him about Hamilton though, there's something contrived and sneaky about him.

Years ago, the cameras were running after the race as the top 3 entered the room behind the podium before the ceremony. Hamilton was first in and he was clearly unhappy, stomping around and snarling at the other 2 drivers - who were very happy by contrast. As they were towelling off, taking in fluids and getting the sponsor's baseball caps on, Hamilton spotted the camera and did a visible double take. He froze for a second then this big fake grin clicked on and he began backslapping the other two drivers in a "hail fellow well met" style saying "Great race man, wow, great race".

He's playing a role for the crowd, part of the Hollywood thing Villeneuve mentions. I think he's just as ruthless, vicious and self-centred as every other driver on the grid but pretends to be above everyone with his holier-than-thou shtick.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (8 Dec 2021)

He's just better at his job than any other driver, including the PR bit.


----------



## derrick (8 Dec 2021)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/villeneuve-jeddah-f1-battle-was-rental-karting/6859830/
> 
> Interesting comments from Villeneuve that echo some views expressed here. I agree with him about Hamilton though, there's something contrived and sneaky about him.
> 
> ...


Just another guy giving an opinion. He may well be an x F1 driver, But so is coultard and Alonso. We all have an opinion on it,


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (8 Dec 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> He's just better at his job than any other driver, including the PR bit.


Don't get me wrong, I think the boy has been touched by genius and is an astonishing driver. But I also think he's a knobber of the highest order and cheer when he gets beat.


----------



## Reynard (8 Dec 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> I think that he'd be welcomed with open arms and a robust nerfing at every corner



Definitely... And I'd pay bloody good money to see that.


----------



## matticus (9 Dec 2021)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/villeneuve-jeddah-f1-battle-was-rental-karting/6859830/


I thought this was a fair comment (and completely separate from any opinions of Max or Lewis):


Spoiler: Hollywood?



The Canadian has also questioned whether F1 is becoming too much of a “Hollywood show”.

"Do we want sport and good F1? Or do we just want a Hollywood show? If you want a Hollywood show, today was amazing. But is that what F1 is all about? I don't know. I mean, I think today Frank [Williams] would have turned in his grave, seeing this race.

“And then when you see the team principals, everybody is shouting, and putting pressure even on the marshals and so on, that become ridiculous. It really has become ridiculous.

“It was great for the fans. So that probably will increase the viewership. Which is great for F1. But we're starting to get away from the sport, that's all. So ultimately, it depends if you're a purist or not.”


----------



## Beebo (9 Dec 2021)

Just been doing some reading about Jos Verstappen. He’s clearly not a very nice personality. 

He has a history of violence against other drivers and his wives. A 5 year suspended sentence for fracturing a man’s scull and Even an attempted murder charge against his ex wife. 

You can see where Max’s attitude comes from.


----------



## glasgowcyclist (9 Dec 2021)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> Don't get me wrong, I think the boy has been touched by genius and is an astonishing driver. But I also think he's a knobber of the highest order and cheer when he gets beat.



I agree but between Hamilton and Verstappen, I'd rather see Hamilton win.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (9 Dec 2021)

Beebo said:


> Just been doing some reading about Jos Verstappen. He’s clearly not a very nice personality.
> 
> He has a history of violence against other drivers and his wives. A 5 year suspended sentence for fracturing a man’s scull and Even an attempted murder charge against his ex wife.
> 
> You can see where Max’s attitude comes from.


Yes, he's a dangerous man - literally so.


----------



## matticus (9 Dec 2021)

So Lewis was advantaged by coming from a good home?


----------



## figbat (9 Dec 2021)

matticus said:


> So Lewis was advantaged by coming from a good home?


Didn’t he come from the slums of Stevenage?


----------



## FishFright (9 Dec 2021)

Beebo said:


> Just been doing some reading about Jos Verstappen. He’s clearly not a very nice personality.
> 
> He has a history of violence against other drivers and his wives. A 5 year suspended sentence for fracturing a man’s scull and Even an attempted murder charge against his ex wife.
> 
> You can see where Max’s attitude comes from.



Jos the Toss


----------



## Beebo (9 Dec 2021)

figbat said:


> Didn’t he come from the slums of Stevenage?


Ghetto I think. 
But he did have a very average upbringing and his dad was instrumental in his development making huge sacrifices to support his son.


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (11 Dec 2021)

Mercedes reportedly considering putting a fresh power unit in Hamilton's car and accepting the 5 place grid penalty that would follow.


----------



## Illaveago (11 Dec 2021)

Beebo said:


> Just been doing some reading about Jos Verstappen. He’s clearly not a very nice personality.
> 
> He has a history of violence against other drivers and his wives. A 5 year suspended sentence for fracturing a man’s scull and Even an attempted murder charge against his ex wife.
> 
> You can see where Max’s attitude comes from.


Yes I found some similar reports when I did a bit of investigation . I wonder if his dad has an impact on things whilst he's at the race ?


----------



## Bonefish Blues (11 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> Yes I found some similar reports when I did a bit of investigation . I wonder if his dad has an impact on things whilst he's at the race ?


I think that the culture Max has 'grown up' in both at home and also in Red Bull has been wholly toxic in terms of his development.

I went on record several years ago as saying that I thought Max would never have the maturity as a racer to be able to win a WDC across a season. I hope I'm right - at least across this season. If you think about it (or better still, watch Karun C's excellent little piece here)


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swxpX6yZS_k


Max would be just about home and hosed already if he'd backed out at Silverstone and played the season-long game.


----------



## glasgowcyclist (11 Dec 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> I think that the culture Max has 'grown up' in both at home and also in Red Bull has been wholly toxic in terms of his development.
> 
> I went on record several years ago as saying that I thought Max would never have the maturity as a racer to be able to win a WDC across a season. I hope I'm right - at least across this season. If you think about it (or better still, watch Karun C's excellent little piece here)
> 
> ...




Excellent exposure of Verstappen’s deliberately dangerous approach to racing.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (11 Dec 2021)

You know when you do something really, really stupid?

Like allow your wife to book family tickets for an event, said event starting at 13.00 on 12th December?

That'll be me then


----------



## classic33 (11 Dec 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> You know when you do something really, really stupid?
> 
> Like allow your wife to book family tickets for an event, said event starting at 13.00 on 12th December?
> 
> That'll be me then


Don't think you'll make it there in time for the start.


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (11 Dec 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> You know when you do something really, really stupid?
> 
> Like allow your wife to book family tickets for an event, said event starting at 13.00 on 12th December?
> 
> That'll be me then


I laughed.

Then remembered 

Taking the wife to the opera and meeting her family for Sunday lunch.


----------



## Reynard (11 Dec 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> I think that the culture Max has 'grown up' in both at home and also in Red Bull has been wholly toxic in terms of his development.
> 
> I went on record several years ago as saying that I thought Max would never have the maturity as a racer to be able to win a WDC across a season. I hope I'm right - at least across this season. If you think about it (or better still, watch Karun C's excellent little piece here)
> 
> ...




This has been my view also. He's grown up being told he's fantastic, the best etc, no one has ever told him "no" - which is why he behaves the way he does. Very much like Ayrton Senna in fact.

The very best drivers e.g. Prost, Lauda were known for playing the long game. Max isn't even on the same planet as these guys. He is undoubtedly ridiculously fast, but hasn't developed that nous. And until he does...


----------



## Reynard (11 Dec 2021)

BTW gents, tomorrow's race is live on Channel 4 from 12pm after a deal with Sky, race start at 1pm.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (11 Dec 2021)

Reynard said:


> BTW gents, tomorrow's race is live on Channel 4 from 12pm after a deal with Sky, race start at 1pm.


Rub it in, why don't you.

My earlier post refers


----------



## Reynard (11 Dec 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Rub it in, why don't you.
> 
> My earlier post refers



They are streaming it on All4 as well, I do believe. Sneak in a device and headphones


----------



## Bonefish Blues (11 Dec 2021)

Reynard said:


> They are streaming it on All4 as well, I do believe. Sneak in a device and headphones


*Carry On Alert!*


I've just planted the seed with my wife.


----------



## sheddy (11 Dec 2021)

^ Yuk


----------



## 13 rider (11 Dec 2021)

Great tactics by Red bull in qualifying . Sets up an interesting race with different tyre strategy for Max and Lewis


----------



## Illaveago (12 Dec 2021)

I think he would become unbearable if he was to win today . I also think Christian Horner's head wouldn't even fit on a wide screen TV .


----------



## classic33 (12 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> I think he would become unbearable if he was to win today . I also think Christian Horner's head wouldn't even fit on a wide screen TV .


Not the first time Red Bull have been championship winners.


----------



## Illaveago (12 Dec 2021)

Are all the people in the grand stands Sky commentators?  There seems to be an awful lot of them .


----------



## classic33 (12 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> Are all the people in the grand stands Sky commentators?  There seems to be an awful lot of them .


BBC Five live are there, Channel 4 and a load more besides.


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (12 Dec 2021)

If that had been the other way around ...


----------



## Beebo (12 Dec 2021)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> If that had been the other way around ...


It was a crazy move. 
I do think Hamilton could and should have given a bit more time back.


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (12 Dec 2021)

Beebo said:


> It was a crazy move.
> I do think Hamilton could and should have given a bit more time back.


He should have given the place back. Verstappen passed him legally on the track, Hamilton went off the track to stay in front.


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (12 Dec 2021)

Mercedes begging for no safety car. Aye, "Safety is our number one priority " except when it isn't.


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (12 Dec 2021)




----------



## Brandane (12 Dec 2021)

What a final lap; well done Max Verstappen 🏁.


----------



## classic33 (12 Dec 2021)

Michael Masi will need an armed escort out of the circuit.


----------



## figbat (12 Dec 2021)

Max took the opportunity handed to him - well done to him. Masi is the villain here, making rules up as he goes along for the show, not for the sport.


----------



## jowwy (12 Dec 2021)

A disgraceful end to that race……..20 weeks of racing for the championship, destroyed in the last 2mins of the season.

Im glad i only watched that one race and not wasted 20wks on that sport……….


----------



## The Central Scrutinizer (12 Dec 2021)

What a shambolic end!
I love F1 but some of the crazy rules they have in place...Jeez!


----------



## Wodman (12 Dec 2021)

Well, having watched an F1 race for the first time in twenty some years, hooked back in by the news coverage of the last couple of weeks, I shan’t be repeating it.

‘Wrong’ driver about to win, just change the rules and we’ll then get the right result. Utter bullsh*t,


----------



## Tom B (12 Dec 2021)

The Central Scrutinizer said:


> What a shambolic end!
> I love F1 but some of the crazy rules they have in place...Jeez!



If only they followed them.

I'm not a Max or Lewis fan I'm happy with great racing and anyone except Ferrari winning. But I can't like days like today.

I think that Masi is out of his depth and lacks the mental capacity to make decisions on the run.

I hate the fact the team managers can talk to him. It's a distraction to his job and leaves him open to influence.

As it happens this is the last race I'll be watching live via sky. The missus wants skyQ and I'll lose the free SkyF1 we have with the current HD package. Having watched this season, I don't think I'll miss it as much as I would a few years ago.

There is too many penalties, too much stewards input and too much "whistle".

I'll still watch c4 highlights.


----------



## The Central Scrutinizer (12 Dec 2021)

I have always thought about this for years watching f1
Why when the safety car comes out are all the cars allowed to bunch up leading to the leading car losing what ever seconds advantage he had.
Just doesn't seem fair to me.


----------



## Illaveago (12 Dec 2021)

Sack Masi!
If it was a restart it should have been restarted in the position in which the flag was called! Allowing Verstappen to restart alongside Lewis when he was on fresh soft tyres was unfair !
They should have continued the race under the yellow flag ! This was how it was done at Spa .
Lewis showed that he was a true sportsman in congratulating Max . He also showed that he had the faster car .


----------



## Illaveago (12 Dec 2021)

The Central Scrutinizer said:


> I have always thought about this for years watching f1
> Why when the safety car comes out are all the cars allowed to bunch up leading to the leading car losing what ever seconds advantage he had.
> Just doesn't seem fair to me.


I didn't think the race where Lewis was the only person on the grid on the wrong tyres whilst the rest went to the pits was fair either.


----------



## sheddy (12 Dec 2021)

Q. Should I bother watching the highlights tonight?


----------



## classic33 (12 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> I didn't think the race where Lewis was the only person on the grid on the wrong tyres whilst the rest went to the pits was fair either.


There was nothing, other than himself and his team, stopping him from doing the same.


----------



## classic33 (12 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> *Sack Masi!*
> If it was a restart it should have been restarted in the position in which the flag was called! Allowing Verstappen to restart alongside Lewis when he was on fresh soft tyres was unfair !
> They should have continued the race under the yellow flag ! This was how it was done at Spa .
> Lewis showed that he was a true sportsman in congratulating Max . He also showed that he had the faster car .


And replace him with who?
As his ex teammate, Rosberg and Brundle, have said.


----------



## Beebo (12 Dec 2021)

Mercedes have launched appeals. Sad if this ends up in sports arbitration.


----------



## classic33 (12 Dec 2021)

Beebo said:


> Mercedes have launched appeals. Sad if this ends up in sports arbitration.


Overtaking* under the safety car being one of the issues/points being argued.

*less than 10cm for less than a second, based on the camera on Verstappens car, with Hamilton on the outside line.


----------



## nickyboy (12 Dec 2021)

I thought pro boxing was the most sketchily run sport going until I read about today's shenanigans


----------



## Beebo (12 Dec 2021)

classic33 said:


> Overtaking* under the safety car being one of the issues/points being argued.
> 
> *less than 10cm for less than a second, based on the camera on Verstappens car, with Hamilton on the outside line.


That’s a technicality. The more serious appeal is restarting the race early.


----------



## dave r (12 Dec 2021)

Beebo said:


> Mercedes have launched appeals. Sad if this ends up in sports arbitration.



https://www.crash.net/f1/news/99469...bu-dhabi-result-after-controversial-f1-finale


----------



## Illaveago (12 Dec 2021)

I thought Nico Rosberg's comments were pretty fair considering he and Lewis weren't the best of buddies when they raced together . His views were more impartial than either David Coulthard or Mark Webbers . As he said it should have been a red flag if they were going to do a sprint race .


----------



## Jody (12 Dec 2021)

Might aswell watch WWE now the Amricans want a show and Massi is in charge.


----------



## Jody (12 Dec 2021)

TBF Redbull and Max played a great game this weekend. All credit to them. 

That last act was an absolute stitch up. 

Merc appeal won't overturn the issue, although I can see some heat incomming for Massi.


----------



## matticus (12 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> I thought Nico Rosberg's comments were pretty fair considering he and Lewis weren't the best of buddies when they raced together . His views were more impartial than either David Coulthard or Mark Webbers . As he said it should have been a red flag if they were going to do a sprint race .


I'm not a rulebook lawyer, so I can't confirm that, but it sounds very believable.

But would it likely have produced a different result? Statistically, a driver is MORE likely to lose the lead at a red flag restart, than a rolling safety car restart. 
What I mean by this - did the chosen restart method disadvantage Lewis? Doesn't appear so, to me.


----------



## figbat (12 Dec 2021)

Another, overlooked fact is that the race has other positions in it rather than just 1st and 2nd. By allowing only the lapped cars between Lewis and Max to unlap themselves it denies those lapped cars behind Max the opportunity for one more lap of racing. Lapped is lapped, and only the leader determines who Is lapped, not the 2nd place guy. There is not some kind of hierarchy of lapped (other than race position).


----------



## matticus (12 Dec 2021)

Jody said:


> That last act was an absolute stitch up.


What did you think about the first lap "incident"?


----------



## classic33 (12 Dec 2021)

matticus said:


> What did you think about the first lap "incident"?


Advantage Hamilton.


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (12 Dec 2021)




----------



## Grant Fondo (12 Dec 2021)

Bad losers Merc .. Toto took a barrister with him. Pillock.


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (12 Dec 2021)

Grant Fondo said:


> Bad losers Merc .. Toto took a barrister with him. Pillock.


Remember this?

View: https://twitter.com/MercedesAMGF1/status/1459588786107654150?s=20


----------



## Beebo (12 Dec 2021)

Jody said:


> Might aswell watch WWE now the Amricans want a show and Massi is in charge.


American racing does tend to have lots of safety cars used to bunch the field up.

does anyone know why they couldn’t do a virtual safety car. They do seem at bit fairer.


----------



## figbat (12 Dec 2021)

Beebo said:


> American racing does tend to have lots of safety cars used to bunch the field up.
> 
> does anyone know why they couldn’t do a virtual safety car. They do seem at bit fairer.


They needed the cars bunched up so they get a decent gap in the traffic to clear the crashed car.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (12 Dec 2021)

Mercedes Protest has been dismissed regarding overtaking behind the Safety Car



View: https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/reustb/mercedes_protest_has_been_dismissed_regarding/?ref=share&ref_source=embed&utm_content=title&utm_medium=post_embed&utm_name=c2ec185a668c4b94a0df873c1727dcf9&utm_source=embedly&utm_term=reustb


----------



## cisamcgu (12 Dec 2021)




----------



## Beebo (12 Dec 2021)

RedBull have won the appeal. 
It will be interesting to hear why.


----------



## Illaveago (12 Dec 2021)

If you consider the race as a whole Lewis did a very good job . He stormed past Verstappen off the start. He managed to avoid Max when they went into the corner and maintained his lead . This can be argued over but in taking avoiding action he would have lost pace so he took the easy route . This according to DC should be allowed under the no rules policy .  Having kept the lead Lewis extended it and Max dropped back . Max pitted and then Lewis did the same . Perez held up Lewis so that Max could close in to 1 second but once Lewis got past he was away again . A safety car allowed Max to change tyres and set off after Lewis once again but after an initial speed advantage couldn't close the gap . This was maintained until another yellow flag the race director decided to change the rules and allowed Max to close up to Lewis on fresher tyres.
The race director said he wanted them to race !  They had been for the past 55 laps ! 


matticus said:


> I'm not a rulebook lawyer, so I can't confirm that, but it sounds very believable.
> 
> But would it likely have produced a different result? Statistically, a driver is MORE likely to lose the lead at a red flag restart, than a rolling safety car restart.
> What I mean by this - did the chosen restart method disadvantage Lewis? Doesn't appear so, to me.


Lewis was on tyres which were somewhere near 40 laps old ! Max had pitted for fresh soft tyres . Lewis had a 12 second gap plus 5 other cars between him and Max when the yellow flag came out . The race officials announced one thing which would have meant that cars unlapping themselves would have taken long enough for the positions to remain the same till the end of the race . This was then changed to allow the 5 cars between them to clear off allowing Max to close right up handing the advantage to Max .


----------



## jowwy (12 Dec 2021)

What a joke of a result………its like liverpool being 3 nil up, opponents get a penalty in the last minute and the ref wipes the scoreboard to 0-0 and says, if the penalty is scored they win

how can that be fair and sporting


----------



## figbat (12 Dec 2021)

I hope Masi never officiates in F1 again. He has ruined this season. I have no issue with who is champion, but I do have issue with the way in which it played out. Rabbit in the headlights making decisions for reasons beyond sporting fairness. If he wanted them to race then don’t let the lapped drivers through and get on with it.


----------



## Illaveago (12 Dec 2021)

Beebo said:


> RedBull have won the appeal.
> It will be interesting to hear why.


Masi probably has shares in Red Bull .


----------



## Beebo (12 Dec 2021)

I suspect the FIA couldn’t change their decision but this will probably end up in the courts. 

The decision to let some but not all lapped cars through seems odder the more you look at it.


----------



## Illaveago (12 Dec 2021)

Breaking news . Track limits will be extended into the crowds!  It's a new decree announced by the new world champion and seconded by DC .


----------



## classic33 (12 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> If you consider the race as a whole Lewis did a very good job . He stormed past Verstappen off the start. He managed to avoid Max when they went into the corner and maintained his lead . This can be argued over but in taking avoiding action he would have lost pace so he took the easy route . This according to DC should be allowed under the no rules policy .  Having kept the lead Lewis extended it and Max dropped back . Max pitted and then Lewis did the same . Perez held up Lewis so that Max could close in to 1 second but once Lewis got past he was away again . A safety car allowed Max to change tyres and set off after Lewis once again but after an initial speed advantage couldn't close the gap . This was maintained until another yellow flag the race director decided to change the rules and allowed Max to close up to Lewis on fresher tyres.
> The race director said he wanted them to race !  They had been for the past 55 laps !
> 
> Lewis was on tyres which were somewhere near 40 laps old ! Max had pitted for fresh soft tyres . Lewis had a 12 second gap plus 5 other cars between him and Max when the yellow flag came out . The race officials announced one thing which would have meant that cars unlapping themselves would have taken long enough for the positions to remain the same till the end of the race . This was then changed to allow the 5 cars between them to clear off allowing Max to close right up handing the advantage to Max .


The blue flags would have been waving anyway.

Scrap the blue flag and let them have to overtake those in front, often having their own battle on track.


----------



## Illaveago (12 Dec 2021)

classic33 said:


> The blue flags would have been waving anyway.
> 
> Scrap the blue flag and let them have to overtake those in front, often having their own battle on track.


Yes , but each car would have been a hindrance and allowed a bit of space to get away . The way it was done was totally unfair with Lewis on old tyres whilst Max had fresh ones . 
Where was the penalty for Max weaving ? His team spotted it !


----------



## Illaveago (12 Dec 2021)

I will never buy Red Bull or Edam cheese !


----------



## Tom B (12 Dec 2021)

The radio comms into massi have been a real eye opener.

It just simply shouldn't happen beyond teams being able to send a message saying something along the lines of "please review incident lap 5 turn 7" and even then for transparency that should be public and anon.

It's just a huge distraction at key decision times for him. He does know you don't have to answer a ringing phone doesn't he?


----------



## Jody (12 Dec 2021)

matticus said:


> What did you think about the first lap "incident"?




Sending it from way to far back and leaving your car at 90 degrees on and your competitor no where to go other than off the track or into your side?

Perfectly legal move. After all he stayed inside the lines. 

I see it all the time racing online.


----------



## classic33 (12 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> Yes , but each car would have been a hindrance and allowed a bit of space to get away . The way it was done was totally unfair with Lewis on old tyres whilst Max had fresh ones .
> Where was the penalty for Max weaving ? His team spotted it !


Hamilton and/or his team didn't want to risk a pit stop. Nothing to do with what another driver/team did. 

As to why, only Hamilton and AMG Mercedes can answer.


----------



## Beebo (12 Dec 2021)

Mercedes have advised they are appealing the decision. 
We need to hear from FIA.


----------



## Jody (12 Dec 2021)

To be fair, I wanted Ham to win, but I equally don't want it taken away from Max.

RB rolled the dice a few times today and it paid off for them.


----------



## keithmac (12 Dec 2021)

Only Lewis and his team to blame why he was on 40 lap old tyres.

Well done Max and well done Red Bull for pitting him when they did.

As soon as a decision goes Red Bulls way all hell breaks loose it seams, Sky were also completely biased towards one team.


----------



## Illaveago (12 Dec 2021)

I think Lewis Hamilton is in actual fact a 9 times world champion . He was denied his first on some technicality . I can remember Bernie Ecclestone saying at the time that he didn't have to win the championship in his first year. At the time it seemed that he was pulling strings . Today he was denied his 9th by the stupid way in which the last laps were run . He had lead the race until that last decision was made handing the lead to Max . Totally unfair .


----------



## classic33 (12 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> I think Lewis Hamilton is in actual fact a 9 times world champion . He was denied his first on some technicality*. I can remember Bernie Ecclestone saying at the time that he didn't have to win the championship in his first year. At the time it seemed that he was pulling strings . Today he was denied his 9th by the stupid way in which the last laps were run . He had lead the race until that last decision was made handing the lead to Max . Totally unfair .


Lost one due to being over confident about his abilities. Ending up in the gravel trap after his tyres gave up.

_"Ferrarigate"_, where the team were disqualified as well.


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (12 Dec 2021)

Remember that Lewis missed 2 (I think) races and was below par for the next one

If he had not got Covid he would have scored at least some point in those races - hence Max would have been further behind and may not have raced SO aggressively

The whole season could have been different - but basically Lewis probably would have won


----------



## classic33 (12 Dec 2021)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> Remember that Lewis missed 2 (I think) races and was below par for the next one
> 
> If he had not got Covid he would have scored at least some point in those races - hence Max would have been further behind and may not have raced SO aggressively
> 
> The whole season could have been different - but basically Lewis probably would have won


Covid, was that a year ago?


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (12 Dec 2021)

classic33 said:


> Covid, was that a year ago?


Hmm - maybe I was a bit out

but apparently it was still affecting him


----------



## classic33 (12 Dec 2021)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> Hmm - maybe I was a bit out
> 
> but apparently it was still affecting him


George Russell stepped into his car for one race. Last but one, and lead until a late pitstop, call made by the team, cost him his first win.


----------



## Jody (12 Dec 2021)

classic33 said:


> Lost one due to being over confident about his abilities. Ending up in the gravel trap after his tyres gave up



I believe there is more to it than that but he can't say. I assume contractually obliged not to.


----------



## gbb (12 Dec 2021)

Ultimately, it came down to the last lap, Verstappen not surprisingly harried Hamilton in the run up to the restart, no doubt trying to distract him, seems all fair in love and war to me...Hamilton made a mistake, lost momentum / grip, position, Verstappen made the most of it. Rest is history, seems fair to me.
The run up to that was ridiculous but notwithstanding, its what happened on the last lap that mattered


----------



## Drago (12 Dec 2021)

The race? Meh.

Listening to Toto whine like a spoiled brat, and see his face looking so glum was far more interesting than the cars going round in circles. 

Clearly a petulant man who dyes his hair and isn't married to a Spice Girl has a lot of anger issues.


----------



## classic33 (12 Dec 2021)

Drago said:


> The race? Meh.
> 
> Listening to Toto whine like a spoiled brat, and see his face looking so glum was far more interesting than the cars going round in circles.
> 
> Clearly a petulant man who dyes his hair and isn't married to a Spice Girl has a lot of anger issues.


He's married to an ex Williams test driver, Suzie.


----------



## Beebo (12 Dec 2021)

gbb said:


> Ultimately, it came down to the last lap, Verstappen not surprisingly harried Hamilton in the run up to the restart, no doubt trying to distract him, seems all fair in love and war to me...Hamilton made a mistake, lost momentum / grip, position, Verstappen made the most of it. Rest is history, seems fair to me.
> The run up to that was ridiculous but notwithstanding, its what happened on the last lap that mattered


Yeah that’s what happened, the car with old tyres got overtaken by the car with new tyres. That isn’t the issue under consideration. 


The issue under consideration is whether car with new tyres should have been right behind and the lapped cars should have been allowed past and whether the race was restarted one lap too soon. 

Most things I’ve read say the race was definitely started too soon and should have finished under the safety car according to the rules. And the FIA have somehow managed to manufacture a final lap race when they shouldn’t have.


----------



## Reynard (12 Dec 2021)

It's a farce that leaves a bad taste in the mouth.

The protest about overtaking under the safety car was marginal - could have fallen either way.

But I'm surprised the protest about the FIA's own conduct got thrown out, because the mistakes made by Michael Massi were, in football terms, clear and obvious.

Either you don't release the lapped cars or you do. But if you do, you must release ALL of them, and leave the safety car out for an additional lap so that those cars catch up to the back of the train. Those have been the rules for many years. And that would have meant the race finishing under the safety car.

If the race had been red-flagged, then everyone could have changed tyres. If they'd gone to a VSC, then the gap has to be maintained.

I wouldn't be surprised to see this go all the way to CAS - because it's not really about the result, it's about the whole integrity of the sport. Right now, F1 is a bloody laughing stock. They might have got the champion they wanted, but at what cost...


----------



## Beebo (12 Dec 2021)

I think you’re right about wanting and getting a new young champion. 
It’s clearly in the interest of the sport as a whole to stop the Hamilton Mercedes winning streak. 
I suspect that will be all the FIA care about once the dust settles.


----------



## Drago (12 Dec 2021)

classic33 said:


> He's married to an ex Williams test driver, Suzie.


I rest my case.


----------



## classic33 (12 Dec 2021)

Drago said:


> I rest my case.


She stopped because she felt she'd be a danger to other drivers on the track when she lost the use of one eye. And her depth of field perception with it.


----------



## nickyboy (12 Dec 2021)

F1 needs VAR


----------



## Reynard (12 Dec 2021)

SydZ said:


> VSC doesn’t secure a safe space for marshalls to be on track to sort out the incident. Having marshalled lesser races myself I’ve have wanted a safety car, as a minimum, for my own safety.



I know that. Was just pointing out all the options available.

I number many people in orange romper suits among my friends, including the head honcho at Donny.


----------



## Drago (12 Dec 2021)

classic33 said:


> She stopped because she felt she'd be a danger to other drivers on the track when she lost the use of one eye. And her depth of field perception with it.


The point is, as I stated, he is not married to a Spice Girl. 

It's possible they may have reformed and hired new staff while I wasn't looking, but last i heard wee Suzie wasn't a Spice Girl.

See, if Toto had married Baby Spice none of this would have happened.

Interesting fact. Toto is a Japanese brand of lavatory bowl.


----------



## Reynard (12 Dec 2021)

classic33 said:


> She stopped because she felt she'd be a danger to other drivers on the track when she lost the use of one eye. And her depth of field perception with it.



Did you know that Alain Prost is nearly blind in one eye following a karting accident as a young man? Didn't stop him from becoming a four-time world champion...


----------



## Drago (12 Dec 2021)

My Missus is blind in one eye, probably a better driver than I am despite me being trained to a higher standard. You can fly airliners with one working eye (assuming you know how tom ly, have a licence and access to an airliner, etc)

The main issue is loss of depth perception. One can mostly train oneself to compensate for this, but in heavy rain, fog, or when there is a blanket of snow one loses the visual reference required to do so.


----------



## Drago (12 Dec 2021)




----------



## FishFright (12 Dec 2021)

Drago said:


> My Missus is blind in one eye, probably a better driver than I am despite me being trained to a higher standard. You can fly airliners with one working eye (assuming you know how tom ly, have a licence and access to an airliner, etc)
> 
> The main issue is loss of depth perception. One can mostly train oneself to compensate for this, but in heavy rain, fog, or when there is a blanket of snow one loses the visual reference required to do so.



As someone born with 1 deficient eye you can't compensate very much at all but you can pretend quite easily.
Another reason I don't drive.


----------



## Drago (12 Dec 2021)

Well, Mrs D does eaxctly just that. 

Something to do with moving the head more often allows the brain to distinguish visual references in a different way that makes the difference, but I didn't fully understand the consultants explanation. Some people can/will do it, some can't/don't.

She had two that worked fine until the one packed up due to MS.


----------



## Reynard (12 Dec 2021)

It's pretty well much the reason Prost pulled out of the '89 Australian GP.

That one, I recall, was another example of a complete and utter shambles...


----------



## Drago (12 Dec 2021)

I long for the good old days when the FIA was run by men who dressed as Nazzies in order to receive a kinky spanking, and the commercial side was run by a racist midget. For all their faults you knew _exactly _what you were getting.

Now it's all polished and shiny, with business plans and proper management steucture, etc, but like most corporate edifices no one knows their rectum from their olecranon.


----------



## Reynard (12 Dec 2021)

Bernie Ecclestone, described as a failed Formula 2 mechanic by someone I know who worked with him in his younger days... 

I'm not sure I'd want to go to back to the Balestre era and the dangerous attitude of laissez faire, but in trying to bring the "gaming generation" on board, the current incumbents are farking up the sport for the purists.

Small wonder I much prefer BTCC and Formula E...


----------



## figbat (12 Dec 2021)

Would never have happened in Charlie’s day - sadly no time for a decent succession plan so we get….. this. 🙁


----------



## Illaveago (12 Dec 2021)

classic33 said:


> Covid, was that a year ago?


Long COVID . He showed signs in a couple of races finishing totally exhausted .


----------



## classic33 (12 Dec 2021)

figbat said:


> Would never have happened in Charlie’s day - sadly no time for a decent succession plan so we get….. this. 🙁


Would, did, the teams question his judgements a much as they do of Masi?


----------



## Reynard (12 Dec 2021)

Massi had been Charlie's deputy for a while. But I do believe he was thrust into a role he does not have the capability, or the strength of will and personality to do.

Charlie was known to bend things a bit if it suited him, but he was universally respected, and his word was law.


----------



## classic33 (12 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> Long COVID . He showed signs in a couple of races finishing totally exhausted .


He still only missed the one race, last year, due to it. And there were questions over how he managed to get to the final race. Given the entry requirements, no entry if you'd had covid, and how he managed to return the negative tests four days apart having returned a positive test on the Monday of the same week.
There on the Thursday, three days after testing positive.


----------



## Jenkins (12 Dec 2021)

classic33 said:


> She stopped because she felt she'd be a danger to other drivers on the track when she lost the use of one eye. And her depth of field perception with it.


You may have got her confused with Maria de Vilotta.

As for the race - I've not watched it yet, only listened to the BBC radio commentary and analysis. Unfortunately it seems that the decisions by the stewards & the race director have followed the previous inconsistencies this season. While Max deserved the championship based on his performances for most of the year, his actions and driving standards in the past few races have left a sour taste in the mouth.


----------



## FishFright (12 Dec 2021)

Drago said:


> Well, Mrs D does eaxctly just that.
> 
> Something to do with moving the head more often allows the brain to distinguish visual references in a different way that makes the difference, but I didn't fully understand the consultants explanation. Some people can/will do it, some can't/don't.
> 
> She had two that worked fine until the one packed up due to MS.



The head movements things is how I do it , it does take some thought though so is a chunk slower than those with stereoscopic vision.

MS is a horrible thing


----------



## icowden (12 Dec 2021)

Beebo said:


> The issue under consideration is whether car with new tyres should have been right behind and the lapped cars should have been allowed past and whether the race was restarted one lap too soon.
> 
> Most things I’ve read say the race was definitely started too soon and should have finished under the safety car according to the rules. And the FIA have somehow managed to manufacture a final lap race when they shouldn’t have.



And what underlines that is the statement put out to teams that lapped cars would *NOT* be allowed to overtake, and then suddenly a reverse ferret was implemented. It just makes it look like a massive stitch up.

Rules changes were made for the start of the season that solely disadvantaged Mercedes. FIA are desperate to break Merca dominance. We have had repeated examples of Horner trying to negotiate with Masi etc. The only way they could gift Red Bull the win was to let max be right behind lewis on that restart. Yes, Mercedes could have come in - but then Max would have stayed out. Both safety cars you are disadvantaged by being in front. If Masi wanted a fair finish he should have red flagged, cleared the car and let everyone come out for a one lap sprint. No one would have moaned if max had won in a fair fight. But he didn’t. Not even close.

They are even whitewashing their website with “brilliant drive from Red Bull”. etc. it wasn’t anything close to a brilliant drive from Max.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (12 Dec 2021)

It was even worse. Only the 5 cars in front of Max were allowed to unlap. At least be consistent and allow all to unlap - but of course that would have put Sainz on Max's tail, looking for second place...


----------



## gbb (13 Dec 2021)

Beebo said:


> Yeah that’s what happened, the car with old tyres got overtaken by the car with new tyres. That isn’t the issue under consideration.
> 
> 
> The issue under consideration is whether car with new tyres should have been right behind and the lapped cars should have been allowed past and whether the race was restarted one lap too soon.
> ...


Cant say i am au fait with the rules but it always seemed to be that lapped cars inbetween the lead lappers passed, allowing the lead lap cars to continue in their rightful positions. Despitr the farce of it, thats what happend surely ?
Dont get me wrong , F1 has become a farce anyway, i dont generally watch it with any pleasure anymore, they certainly didnt help themselves yesterday.


----------



## Drago (13 Dec 2021)

Reynard said:


> Bernie Ecclestone, described as a failed Formula 2 mechanic by someone I know who worked with him in his younger days...
> 
> I'm not sure I'd want to go to back to the Balestre era and the dangerous attitude of laissez faire, but in trying to bring the "gaming generation" on board, the current incumbents are farking up the sport for the purists.
> 
> Small wonder I much prefer BTCC and Formula E...


My Dad knew Bernie and has oft said that if you were in London in the 60's and had a stolen motorbike to sell then he was the man you went to see.


----------



## gbb (13 Dec 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> It was even worse. Only the 5 cars in front of Max were allowed to unlap. At least be consistent and allow all to unlap - but of course that would have put Sainz on Max's tail, looking for second place...


Tbf, i only watched the last few laps and did wonder how the lapped got past so quick...that explains why, most didnt.


----------



## Drago (13 Dec 2021)

Of course, Max would not have found that at all straightforward if Mercedes had brought Lewis in for new tyres. 

If they had done so then I guess none of these other shenanigans would not have mattered, but Mercedes made the wrong call because they were frightened RB would leave Mac out on his relatively fresh rubber and Lewis would lose track position. Oops.

I wonder if Toto will be dragging along a barrister to challenge himself over that blunder?


----------



## Illaveago (13 Dec 2021)

If the results are allowed to stand it will cast shame on the names of Red Bull , Red Bull Racing , Honda, the FIA, Liberty Media, Michael Masi.
As a result of the final lap decision Lewis Hamilton was given in effect a 12 second time penalty for leading most of the race until the last crash . Lewis had countered everything that Red Bull had tried to catch him . He even managed to stretch his lead once again after Perez had held him up by 7 seconds to allow Max to close to within 1 second . Despite Max fitting new tyres and starting to close the gap again Lewis managed to once again stretch the gap out to 12 seconds despite having old tyres. Masi said that he wanted the car's to race. What had they been doing for the previous 50 laps ?  Was he asleep? 
I could accept the result if Lewis's car had developed an engine fault or a puncture but manipulating the race in order to achieve that result was a crime !
People criticise Lewis as being false but yesterday he showed how honourable he was by going over to congratulate Max . His father went and congratulated Max's dad.


----------



## Beebo (13 Dec 2021)

Drago said:


> Of course, Max would not have found that at all straightforward if Mercedes had brought Lewis in for new tyres.
> 
> If they had done so then I guess none of these other shenanigans would not have mattered, but Mercedes made the wrong call because they were frightened RB would leave Mac out on his relatively fresh rubber and Lewis would lose track position. Oops.
> 
> I wonder if Toto will be dragging along a barrister to challenge himself over that blunder?


In hindsight it maybe a blunder. 
But at the time, and with the rules correctly applied it was the right thing to do.


----------



## glasgowcyclist (13 Dec 2021)

Did she? No mention of that that I can find. According to wikipedia she stopped because she had gone as far as she could in the sport.

Are you perhaps thinking of Maria de Villota?


----------



## figbat (13 Dec 2021)

Beebo said:


> In hindsight it maybe a blunder.
> But at the time, and with the rules correctly applied it was the right thing to do.


Exactly this. Mercedes had little choice. If they came in they would be behind Max and the regulations meant that there was no time to restart, so Lewis would finish behind Max and the safety car. What they didn't know was that Masi was treating F1 like the Hunger Games and insisting that the game go on to its brutal conclusion. Mercedes have every right to feel sore as they made decisions based on the regulations as stated. You might also argue that Ferrari would feel hard done by as Carlos was not given the same opportunity to race. Sebastian has also complained that he was not allowed to unlap himself (and potentially race for a better position in the last lap).

Masi was focussed entirely on 'the show' and delivering 'a spectacle' but in the end has delivered a farce and only Max fans are happy - I've not come across any other F1 fan that is anything other than disappointed. Lewis had the race sewn up - he and Mercedes deserved to win this race. He was deliberately hamstrung by Masi who manipulated the race and handed it and the title to Max. I'm not a Lewis fan nor a Max one - I'd be happy either way - but not this way.


----------



## Fat Lars (13 Dec 2021)

Beebo said:


> In hindsight it maybe a blunder.
> But at the time, and with the rules correctly applied it was the right thing to do.


With due respect the rules were not applied correctly. Lewis was stitched up. So many questions. IMO F1 is shamed by this debacle. I couldn't watch the last lap as I was getting so angry. Mad Max is a dodgy driver who throughout the season continually drived wide to put Lewis off the track when he was being overtaken. Everyone knows that the true champion is Lewis Hamilton. IMO Mercedes will win their appeal in court although F1 is forever tarnished.


----------



## keithmac (13 Dec 2021)

I've watched F1 for 30+ years, the cheers in our house when Max won I've never heard before.

My 9 year old daughter was absolutely hooked to the last seconds.

Racing is racing, no question of having the safety car out due to where the crashed car has to be recovered.

I would have called it a stich up if the HADN'T cleared the lapped cars personally.

Looking through the season Red Bull have always got it in the neck decision wise, made a refreshing change to see one going their way for a change.

Roll on next year, hopefully George Russell will get a chance to race properly and not have his races wrecked in the pits (that left a sour taste, he was stitched up good and proper).


----------



## Illaveago (13 Dec 2021)

I wonder if Masi has had an anonymous large amount of money deposited into his bank account ? 

Red Bull offering Nicholas LaTifi with supplies of their drinks doesn't sound correct !


----------



## Jody (13 Dec 2021)

Fat Lars said:


> IMO Mercedes will win their appeal in court although F1 is forever tarnished.



There will be no winner if it goes to court. An appeal won and the title taken away from Max would also be a travesty.


----------



## Illaveago (13 Dec 2021)

keithmac said:


> I've watched F1 for 30+ years, the cheers in our house when Max won I've never heard before.
> 
> My 9 year old daughter was absolutely hooked to the last seconds.
> 
> ...


What! 
I think Max was given a back of the grid penalty for causing the crash at Monza. So his team decided to fit a new engine into his car which would also mean a back of the grid penalty therefore negating the penalty for the next race. 
In the Saudi Arabian GP Max caused the smash by slamming on his brakes , known as brake testing . Penalty 10 seconds which had no effect apart from dropping him back from LH .
Max is a dangerous driver who is allowed to do what he wants. They say he is brave going for gaps which aren't there . If there were solid walls instead of nice wide run off areas his car would end up smashed just like he did on his qualifying lap in a previous race .


----------



## figbat (13 Dec 2021)

keithmac said:


> I would have called it a stich up if the HADN'T cleared the lapped cars personally.


But why only the ones between Max and Lewis? Why not the ones between Carlos and Max? Let Carlos have a bite at Max (and maybe even Lewis) - that’s racing, after all? And why not the ones further back who have their own races to run and were denied the chance of an extra lap of racing on a whim by Masi?


----------



## Bonefish Blues (13 Dec 2021)

figbat said:


> But why only the ones between Max and Lewis? Why not the ones between Carlos and Max? Let Carlos have a bite at Max (and maybe even Lewis) - that’s racing, after all? And why not the ones further back who have their own races to run and were denied the chance of an extra lap of racing on a whim by Masi?


...and just to build on that, of course the rules state that the unlapped cars then need to reattach themselves to the back of the 'train' before racing re-starts.

...oh, and remember that there has then to be a lap afterwards before the Safety Car can be withdrawn.

...both of which mean that the race would have finished under Safety Car conditions.

This was literally the _only_ scenario where Max could win the race. The only one - and it's contrary to the FIA's own rules.


----------



## Alex321 (13 Dec 2021)

gbb said:


> Cant say i am au fait with the rules but it always seemed to be that lapped cars inbetween the lead lappers passed, allowing the lead lap cars to continue in their rightful positions. Despitr the farce of it, thats what happend surely ?
> Dont get me wrong , F1 has become a farce anyway, i dont generally watch it with any pleasure anymore, they certainly didnt help themselves yesterday.


No, what happened was that they only allowed the cares between the first two drivers to unlap themselves.

It is normally ALL lapped cars, not just the ones between the first two positions. But if they had done that, it would have taken too long, and they would not have had that lap of racing at the end. They shouldn't have done anyhow, because they restarted before the unlapped cars were far enough around the track.

And as well as taking longer, allowing all lapped cars through (the only valid option according to the rules) would have left Sainz up the tail of Verstappen, which might have limitied his ability to get past Hamilton.


----------



## Illaveago (13 Dec 2021)

I think Masi is a puppet being manipulated by Bernie Ecclestone .


----------



## Bonefish Blues (13 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> I think Masi is a puppet being manipulated by Bernie Ecclestone .


Bernie was on R4 this morning and said, in terms, that Masi made an honest error, before rapidly engaging reverse when he realised what he'd just said!


----------



## Illaveago (13 Dec 2021)

classic33 said:


> Lost one due to being over confident about his abilities. Ending up in the gravel trap after his tyres gave up.
> 
> _"Ferrarigate"_, where the team were disqualified as well.


You are correct on some of it . 2007 Lewis Hamilton's first year in F1 and finished 2nd to Kimi in a Ferrari 1 point behind in the championship. I think there was some controversy over an incident at Spa . I think it involved Lewis cutting a corner and getting in front of Kimi , letting him have position back and then re taking it . It was also Ferrari gate as well . I can remember that there was uproar at the time complaining that it was rigged .
Lewis won the championship the following year by 1 point .


----------



## Illaveago (13 Dec 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Bernie was on R4 this morning and said, in terms, that Masi made an honest error, before rapidly engaging reverse when he realised what he'd just said!


Did Ecclestone tell him to say that ?


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (13 Dec 2021)

This thread is delicious.


----------



## classic33 (13 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> You are correct on some of it . 2007 Lewis Hamilton's first year in F1 and finished 2nd to Kimi in a Ferrari 1 point behind in the championship. I think there was some controversy over an incident at Spa .* I think it involved Lewis cutting a corner and getting in front of Kimi, letting him have position back and then re taking it* . It was also Ferrari gate as well . I can remember that there was uproar at the time complaining that it was rigged .
> Lewis won the championship the following year by 1 point .


Isn't that what Verstappen was doing last week. Having been told to so, strategically.


----------



## FishFright (13 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> I wonder if Masi has had an anonymous large amount of money deposited into his bank account ?
> 
> Red Bull offering Nicholas LaTifi with supplies of their drinks doesn't sound correct !



I think it's pressure from Liberty Media to provide a show that cracked Masi and gave us the roll-a-dice rules season.


----------



## Illaveago (13 Dec 2021)

FishFright said:


> I think it's pressure from Liberty Media to provide a show that cracked Masi and gave us the roll-a-dice rules season.


I still think Ecclestone had involvement . When he spoke the other day saying that "Lewis didn't need to win his eighth championship", it reminded me of what he said back in 2007 . "Lewis doesn't need to win the championship in his first year ".


----------



## FishFright (13 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> I still think Ecclestone had involvement . When he spoke the other day saying that "Lewis didn't need to win his eighth championship", it reminded me of what he said back in 2007 . "Lewis doesn't need to win the championship in his first year ".



I quite miss the old rouge


----------



## Jody (13 Dec 2021)

FishFright said:


> I quite miss the old rouge



As bent as a nine bob note.


----------



## classic33 (13 Dec 2021)

There's one record set this year that's unlikely to be beaten.
_"The longest pit stop in formula one history is 43 hours and 15 minutes. This is about 2,595 minutes or 155,700 seconds and it is a record held by Mercedes F1 team."_


----------



## figbat (13 Dec 2021)

One thing missing from this year’s season finale - they usually do donuts on the close-down lap, sometimes on the pit straight too. Not this year.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (13 Dec 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> .... one - *and it's contrary to the FIA's own rules.*



Except it isn't, plus, as I understand it, _all_ teams agreed prior to the race that it shouldn't finish under the safety car, and should be raced to the flag.


----------



## Jody (13 Dec 2021)

ClichéGuevara said:


> _all_ teams agreed prior to the race that it shouldn't finish under the safety car,



Unusual thing for all teams to sign up for pre race. 

Do you have any links to that?


----------



## matticus (13 Dec 2021)

classic33 said:


> There's one record set this year that's unlikely to be beaten.
> _"The longest pit stop in formula one history is 43 hours and 15 minutes. This is about 2,595 minutes or 155,700 seconds and it is a record held by Mercedes F1 team."_


I love a crazy statoid, so I'll risk public humiiation and ask you to explain please! :P

Meanwhile, I loved the Kimi factoid: he's driver over 57 thousand miles in Grand Prix. That's a lot of football pitches back to back ...


----------



## ClichéGuevara (13 Dec 2021)

Jody said:


> Unusual thing for all teams to sign up for pre race.
> 
> Do you have any links to that?



It's been detailed in several articles and by commentators, and summarised in the FIA report.

"The Race Director also stated that it had long been agreed by all the Teams that where possible
it was highly desirable for the race to end in a “green” condition (i.e. not under a Safety Car). "

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/f...otest-over-abu-dhabi-gp-race-restart/6878855/


----------



## jowwy (13 Dec 2021)

ClichéGuevara said:


> It's been detailed in several articles and by commentators, and summarised in the FIA report.
> 
> "The Race Director also stated that it had long been agreed by all the Teams that where possible
> it was highly desirable for the race to end in a “green” condition (i.e. not under a Safety Car). "
> ...


too many overuling rules, within the rules and giving one person the opportunity to manipulate the result of a race.....which is what masi did


----------



## Jody (13 Dec 2021)

Reads more as some historic agreement (probably after Spa) that they are now hiding behind. Spa was a farce and shouldn't have ever been classified as a race being 2 laps run completely behind the safety car. Another rule re-write so they could dodge liabilities.

To me, where possible and highly desirable doesn't mean they should do it at any cost.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (13 Dec 2021)

ClichéGuevara said:


> Except it isn't, plus, as I understand it, _all_ teams agreed prior to the race that it shouldn't finish under the safety car, and should be raced to the flag.


That's an assertion I've seen elsewhere, and aiui teams have all agreed it's preferable to finish a race on the track. But that way has brought the sport, and in particular the FIA into disrepute.

Why not throw a Red Flag? Neutralise the race, clear the track, tyre choice can be made, and then you get a what, 2-3 lap shootout as opposed to this, where there could only be one winner in those circumstances - and to repeat what I said before, it was the only circumstance where Max, who had been outpaced all afternoon, could have won the race.

Thoughtful analysis here:

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/why-masis-latest...

What does "Except it isn't" refer to?


----------



## derrick (13 Dec 2021)

The whole race was a farce. Masi should be sacked, shame Charlie died.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (13 Dec 2021)

I'm not getting into a pointless debate, and the comments above are all well and good, but my main point was that whether good, bad or indifferent, the actions were not against the rules.

Hamilton slowed to try to trap Verstappen, which left him further than 10 lengths behind the safety car, and he gained an advantage going off the track, (when other drivers stayed on in exactly the same scenario) and never gave the position back. 

It's one event, albeit a key one, but people seem to focus on that as it supports their man, without considering events earlier in that race, or in others this season, all of which had some sort of influence on the final outcome.

It's done.


----------



## matticus (13 Dec 2021)

derrick said:


> shame Charlie died.


Is this something we can all agree on??


----------



## Bonefish Blues (13 Dec 2021)

ClichéGuevara said:


> I'm not getting into a pointless debate, and the comments above are all well and good, but my main point was that whether good, bad or indifferent, the actions were not against the rules.
> 
> Hamilton slowed to try to trap Verstappen, which left him further than 10 lengths behind the safety car, and he gained an advantage going off the track, (when other drivers stayed on in exactly the same scenario) and never gave the position back.
> 
> It's one event, albeit a key one, but people seem to focus on that as it supports their man, without considering events earlier in that race, or in others this season.


Either party deserved to win the WDC. I have no particular allegiance to either (although I freely admit I prefer Lewis's style of racing to Max's), but have been a lifelong F1 follower and this casts a shadow over the awarding of the WDC - that's my issue.


----------



## johnnyb47 (13 Dec 2021)

Jeremy Vine on Radio 2 will be talking about this later on, Should be interesting 🤔


----------



## derrick (13 Dec 2021)

johnnyb47 said:


> Jeremy Vine on Radio 2 will be talking about this later on, Should be interesting 🤔


WTF does he know.


----------



## figbat (13 Dec 2021)

ClichéGuevara said:


> Except it isn't, plus, as I understand it, _all_ teams agreed prior to the race that it shouldn't finish under the safety car, and should be raced to the flag.


You've gone on to show that this is a preference, rather than a mandate. There are circumstances where this is impossible, like when an incident happens too close to the end of the race to allow the processes to complete in time. This happened on Sunday - the only option for a last lap race was a red flag. Masi dithered and got caught without time to complete ANY of the available safety car processes, so he made it up on the spot with some kind of des-pot autocracy. He focussed entirely on the front two and ignored the rest of the field.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (13 Dec 2021)

johnnyb47 said:


> Jeremy Vine on Radio 2 will be talking about this later on, Should be interesting 🤔


Helllloooooo I have Mrs Trellis on the line. What's your point Mrs Trellis?


----------



## ClichéGuevara (13 Dec 2021)

figbat said:


> You've gone on to show that this is a preference, rather than a mandate. There are circumstances where this is impossible, like when an incident happens too close to the end of the race to allow the processes to complete in time. This happened on Sunday - the only option for a last lap race was a red flag. Masi dithered and got caught without time to complete ANY of the available safety car processes, so he made it up on the spot with some kind of des-pot autocracy. He focussed entirely on the front two and ignored the rest of the field.



But still within the rules.


----------



## Jody (13 Dec 2021)

ClichéGuevara said:


> It's one event, albeit a key one, but people seem to focus on that as it supports their man, without considering events earlier in that race, or in others this season.



It's been pointed out how many times that there have been discrepancies in the rules and the way they have been applied this season. Hence why a lot of people disagree when it looks to be so obviously engineered. 

My issue is with the FIA and not the person who won. The team communications played on air have shed light on how much of a shambles it is behind the scenes.

If the situation was reversed, RB would also be livid and I'd agree with RB.


----------



## figbat (13 Dec 2021)

ClichéGuevara said:


> But still within the rules.


No, not within the rules.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (13 Dec 2021)

figbat said:


> No, not within the rules.


48.12 refers, for one.


----------



## Beebo (13 Dec 2021)

Having reviewed lots of expert opinion from ex racers and journalists. They are almost all in agreement that it was shoddy work from the stewards and Hamilton was very hard done by. But there is little to be gained from a long drawn out legal battle. 
Someone at FIA and the company running the sport needs to take Toto to one side, admit it was an unsatisfactory ending and ask him to withdraw the complaint for the sake of the sport. 
I wanted Hamilton to win his 8th WDC but not in the courts.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (13 Dec 2021)

figbat said:


> No, not within the rules.





Bonefish Blues said:


> 48.12 refers, for one.



Not according to those that make and administer them.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (13 Dec 2021)

Jody said:


> It's been pointed out how many times that there have been discrepancies in the rules and the way they have been applied this season. Hence why a lot of people disagree when it looks to be so obviously engineered.
> 
> *My issue is with the FIA and not the person who won.* The team communications played on air have shed light on how much of a shambles it is behind the scenes.
> 
> If the situation was reversed, RB would also be livid and I'd agree with RB.


This. In spades. It's neither Max nor Lewis's fault.

Although just to add that the teams have always had open access to the Race Director, even in Charlie's time, it's just that we're only now hearing it, and Masi has had issues this year.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (13 Dec 2021)

ClichéGuevara said:


> Not according to those that make and administer them.


Ah yes, the people who to use the phrase we've seen a few times 'marked their own homework'

Do you really think that they were ever, in any circumstance likely to admit fault last night?


----------



## Bonefish Blues (13 Dec 2021)

And just for completeness, I was surprised that Lewis was allowed to keep the lead on Lap 1 - I think that was a bad call, because Max was, in RB's words, aggressive but fair in that one. Who knows why - perhaps Max's previous overtakes/defences swayed things, but that was a legitimate pass in my view.


----------



## classic33 (13 Dec 2021)

matticus said:


> I love a crazy statoid, so I'll risk public humiiation and ask you to explain please! :P
> 
> Meanwhile, I loved the Kimi factoid: he's driver over 57 thousand miles in Grand Prix. That's a lot of football pitches back to back ...


_"The time it took to remove the right front wheel of Valtteri Bottas racing car. This is after it failed to come off during his pit stop at the Monaco Grand Prix in 2021, making it the longest pit stop in F1."_

On
https://www.watsonpost.com/longest-pit-stop-in-formula-one/

and elsewhere.


----------



## Jody (13 Dec 2021)

Beebo said:


> Having reviewed lots of expert opinion from ex racers and journalists. They are almost all in agreement that it was shoddy work from the stewards and Hamilton was very hard done by. But there is little to be gained from a long drawn out legal battle.
> Someone at FIA and the company running the sport needs to take Toto to one side, admit it was an unsatisfactory ending and ask him to withdraw the complaint for the sake of the sport.
> I wanted Hamilton to win his 8th WDC but not in the courts.



I agree with that but the apology shouldn't be to Toto behind closed doors. It needs to be done in public and this put it to bed.


----------



## Alex321 (13 Dec 2021)

ClichéGuevara said:


> Except it isn't, plus, as I understand it, _all_ teams agreed prior to the race that it shouldn't finish under the safety car, and should be raced to the flag.


I don't for one moment believe they would have signed up to such a ridiculous thing. You simply cannot, in advance, know when safety cars may be required, or how long they will need to be out for. The only way they could possibly have been certain to be able to race the last lap would have been to agree the race should be red flagged if a safety car would have gone into the last lap.


----------



## Alex321 (13 Dec 2021)

ClichéGuevara said:


> It's been detailed in several articles and by commentators, and summarised in the FIA report.
> 
> "The Race Director also stated that it had long been agreed by all the Teams that where possible
> it was highly desirable for the race to end in a “green” condition (i.e. not under a Safety Car). "
> ...


Note "Where possible". That makes a huge difference, and yes, it has always been the preference.


----------



## classic33 (13 Dec 2021)

Jody said:


> It's been pointed out how many times that there have been discrepancies in the rules and the way they have been applied this season. Hence why a lot of people disagree when it looks to be so obviously engineered.
> 
> My issue is with the FIA and not the person who won. The team communications played on air have shed light on how much of a shambles it is behind the scenes.
> 
> If the situation was reversed, RB would also be livid and I'd agree with RB.


True, but Mercedes were the only team to have brought legal aid, a QC, to the race.


----------



## FishFright (13 Dec 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> And just for completeness, I was surprised that Lewis was allowed to keep the lead on Lap 1 - I think that was a bad call, because Max was, in RB's words, aggressive but fair in that one. Who knows why - perhaps Max's previous overtakes/defences swayed things, but that was a legitimate pass in my view.



If there was a gravel trap at the corner Hamilton would have braked. I can see why he didn't what he did though.

Tarmac runoffs are safer but are being abused far too much without sanction. Again Masi's fault.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (13 Dec 2021)

classic33 said:


> True, but Mercedes were the only team to have brought legal aid, a QC, to the race.


He was a guest at the final GP, so I understand - that's why he was in shorts as opposed to more formal garb - they just rounded him up and off they went


----------



## Alex321 (13 Dec 2021)

ClichéGuevara said:


> But still within the rules.


Only on the ridiculous technicality that the Race Director can override any of the rules he feels like.

There were two things he did there which were definitely and clearly outside the rules generally in force. First, allowing only the cars between Hamilton and Verstappen to unlap themselves. It is all or none. Second, allowing the race to restart before those unlapped cars had made their way back around to the tail of the procession.


----------



## Alex321 (13 Dec 2021)

Beebo said:


> Having reviewed lots of expert opinion from ex racers and journalists. They are almost all in agreement that it was shoddy work from the stewards and Hamilton was very hard done by. But there is little to be gained from a long drawn out legal battle.
> Someone at FIA and the company running the sport needs to take Toto to one side, admit it was an unsatisfactory ending and ask him to withdraw the complaint for the sake of the sport.
> I wanted Hamilton to win his 8th WDC but not in the courts.


Agreed. There is really nothing much to be gained now by court action. All that will do is drag the name of F1 even further into the mud.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (13 Dec 2021)

Alex321 said:


> Only on the ridiculous technicality that the Race Director can override any of the rules he feels like.
> 
> There were two things he did there which were definitely and clearly outside the rules generally in force. First, allowing only the cars between Hamilton and Verstappen to unlap themselves. It is all or none. Second, allowing the race to restart before those unlapped cars had made their way back around to the tail of the procession.



F1 is all about technicalities, but no matter the whys and wherefores, it was not against the rules.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (13 Dec 2021)

Alex321 said:


> Only on the ridiculous technicality that the Race Director can override any of the rules he feels like.
> 
> There were two things he did there which were definitely and clearly outside the rules generally in force. First, allowing only the cars between Hamilton and Verstappen to unlap themselves. It is all or none. Second, allowing the race to restart before those unlapped cars had made their way back around to the tail of the procession. Then, on the following lap the SC is brought in.


Just to add that final sentence.

And to add, consensus is heavily against your view re the rules CG - which goes, as far as I can see way beyond the Lewis fans, to include a specialist sports lawyer this morning, I was listening to.

ETA
But I fully accept that consensus isn't the awarding body of the WDC.


...but the CAS may be


----------



## icowden (13 Dec 2021)

Alex321 said:


> Note "Where possible". That makes a huge difference, and yes, it has always been the preference.



And Masi could still have done that. He didn't need to decide to unlap 4 cars. Max would still have had a chance, it would have been much harder, but he would still have had those softs and blue flags and the opportunity to try to catch Hamilton - and again - we wouldn't all be saying "stitch up". Instead he put max alongside Lewis and ruined the race.

Equally - he could have ordered Lewis to give the place back. I think Lewis would still have taken Max though.His pace was phenomenal.


----------



## figbat (13 Dec 2021)

ClichéGuevara said:


> F1 is all about technicalities, but no matter the whys and wherefores, it was not against the rules.


There is no regulation that allows for partial unlapping of cars. None. Why? Because it is unfair and impedes competition. There is only the regulation that "requires" all lapped cars to be unlapped and that also demands that the safety car come in a lap later. Or there is the discretionary choice not to have cars unlap themselves. These are within the regulations. The supposed autocracy of the race director is not absolute and covers if and when the safety car should be deployed, but still does not allow for partial unlapping or making up rules along the way.

You're clearly pushing an unpopular opinion to get a rise and it is promoting (so far) well-mannered debate, but it has no basis in fact and appears to be based on the FIA's "because we said so" defence.


----------



## Beebo (13 Dec 2021)

Anyone know what the bookmakers are doing at the moment?
Do they pay out or not?
Imagine putting a couple of grand on a Hamilton win at the start of the season. You’d feel totally robbed. Similarly if you’ve done the same for verstappen you’d want your money now.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (13 Dec 2021)

figbat said:


> There is no regulation that allows for partial unlapping of cars. None. Why? Because it is unfair and impedes competition. There is only the regulation that "requires" all lapped cars to be unlapped and that also demands that the safety car come in a lap later. Or there is the discretionary choice not to have cars unlap themselves. These are within the regulations. The supposed autocracy of the race director is not absolute and covers if and when the safety car should be deployed, but still does not allow for partial unlapping or making up rules along the way.
> 
> You're clearly pushing an unpopular opinion to get a rise and it is promoting (so far) well-mannered debate, but it has no basis in fact and appears to be based on the FIA's "because we said so" defence.



I'd say you misquoting the regulations to try and support what is a spurious argument (as confirmed by the FIA) is more akin to a rise.


----------



## Beebo (13 Dec 2021)

The best analogy I’ve heard is a football match where one team is 3-0 up. 
The ref declares that the next goal wins because he has the ultimate decision on how to interpret the rules and he wants an exciting last few minutes. 
Plus the team behind can bring on 5 new substitutes to freshen things up a bit.


----------



## FishFright (13 Dec 2021)

figbat said:


> T*here is no regulation that allows for partial unlapping of cars. * None. Why? Because it is unfair and impedes competition. There is only the regulation that "requires" all lapped cars to be unlapped and that also demands that the safety car come in a lap later. Or there is the discretionary choice not to have cars unlap themselves. These are within the regulations. The supposed autocracy of the race director is not absolute and covers if and when the safety car should be deployed, but still does not allow for partial unlapping or making up rules along the way.
> 
> You're clearly pushing an unpopular opinion to get a rise and it is promoting (so far) well-mannered debate, but it has no basis in fact and appears to be based on the FIA's "because we said so" defence.



There is apparently , read the stewards decision on Mercedes's protest.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (13 Dec 2021)

Beebo said:


> Anyone know what the bookmakers are doing at the moment?
> Do they pay out or not?
> Imagine putting a couple of grand on a Hamilton win at the start of the season. You’d feel totally robbed. Similarly if you’ve done the same for verstappen you’d want your money now.


Paddy Power paid out singles on WDC to punters who had either Max or Lewis.

Clever marketeers, Paddys


----------



## ClichéGuevara (13 Dec 2021)

Beebo said:


> The best analogy I’ve heard is a football match where one team is 3-0 up.
> The ref declares that the next goal wins because he has the ultimate decision on how to interpret the rules and he wants an exciting last few minutes.
> Plus the team behind can bring on 5 new substitutes to freshen things up a bit.



That's not a particularly apt analogy, and in any event, it would only work if that option was already written in to the rules that all clubs signed up for.


----------



## T4tomo (13 Dec 2021)

F1 results now have about as much credibility as the wrestling I used to watch in the 80's on World of Sport.

And the wrestling was more entertaining.


----------



## Jody (13 Dec 2021)

ClichéGuevara said:


> .....and support what is a spurious argument (as confirmed by the FIA)



Imagine being a judge and able to rule your own case. Doubt many would find themselves guilty.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (13 Dec 2021)

T4tomo said:


> F1 results now have about as much credibility as the wrestling I used to watch in the 80's on World of Sport.
> 
> And the wrestling was more entertaining.


1980s?

You missed it in its prime. McManus, Pallo, Count Bartelli (lived in a bungalow just down the road) Kendo Nagasaki. Jumpers for goalposts, F1 cars that killed you to death if you even sat in them.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (13 Dec 2021)

Jody said:


> Imagine being a judge and able to rule your own case. Doubt many would find themselves guilty.



That's academic. The teams signed up to that arrangement, and Mercedes in particular are well versed in interpreting them.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (13 Dec 2021)

ClichéGuevara said:


> That's academic. The teams signed up to that arrangement, and Mercedes in particular are well versed in interpreting them.


It's really not. That's why in the Concord Agreement there's provision for ICAS to act as the final arbitrator.


----------



## Alex321 (13 Dec 2021)

ClichéGuevara said:


> I'd say you misquoting the regulations to try and support what is a spurious argument (as confirmed by the FIA) is more akin to a rise.


You really believe that "as confirmed by the FIA" has any validity/credibility in these circumstances?


----------



## figbat (13 Dec 2021)

FishFright said:


> There is apparently , read the stewards decision on Mercedes's protest.


I have. It states “Article 48.12 may not have been applied fully” (which means not applied - it is either done or not done). It argues that Article 48.13 overrides this, but it doesn’t. 48.13 states, in paraphrase, that once the safety car has been recalled it comes in that lap. However it doesn’t say that the safety car can be recalled at whim, or in contravention to other articles. Masi recalled the safety car incorrectly, but once he had it had to come it. The first action was the error and against the regulations.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (13 Dec 2021)

Alex321 said:


> You really believe that "as confirmed by the FIA" has any validity/credibility in these circumstances?



Yup, they're the body tasked with such issues, and the one the teams signed up to. You may not like their interpretation, but at present, it's the deciding factor at this stage.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (13 Dec 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> It's really not. That's why in the Concord Agreement there's provision for ICAS to act as the final arbitrator.



See above response.


----------



## FishFright (13 Dec 2021)

figbat said:


> I have. It states “Article 48.12 may not have been applied fully” (which means not applied - it is either done or not done). It argues that Article 48.13 overrides this, but it doesn’t. 48.13 states, in paraphrase, that once the safety car has been recalled it comes in that lap. However it doesn’t say that the safety car can be recalled at whim, or in contravention to other articles. Masi recalled the safety car incorrectly, but once he had it had to come it. The first action was the error and against the regulations.



That Article 15.3 allows the Race Director to control the use of the safety car, which in our determination includes its deployment and withdrawal.

He's been winging it all season and bowing to pressure from who shouts the loudest.


----------



## Alex321 (13 Dec 2021)

ClichéGuevara said:


> Yup, they're the body tasked with such issues, and the one the teams signed up to. You may not like their interpretation, but at present, it's the deciding factor at this stage.


They are the body whose representative on the day appears to have played fast and loose with the rules, in order to engineer the end to the race he wanted to see. Of course they are going to "confirm" that it was OK.

Unfortunately, no matter what happens now, nobody is really going to be happy, and if it goes to court, the name of F1 will have really been dragged through the mud.

The odds are IMO that if it goes to court, the decision will be that the race should have finished under the safety car, and Hamilton may be awarded the title as a result. But I don't think either he or Mercedes would have wanted to win it that way. And if it doesn't go to court, or the court decides otherwise, I suspect that neither Verstappen nor Red Bull are really happy about having won it in those circumstances.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (13 Dec 2021)

Alex321 said:


> They are the body whose representative on the day appears to have played fast and loose with the rules, in order to engineer the end to the race he wanted to see. Of course they are going to "confirm" that it was OK.
> 
> Unfortunately, no matter what happens now, nobody is really going to be happy, and if it goes to court, the name of F1 will have really been dragged through the mud.
> 
> The odds are IMO that if it goes to court, the decision will be that the race should have finished under the safety car, and Hamilton may be awarded the title as a result. But I don't think either he or Mercedes would have wanted to win it that way. And if it doesn't go to court, or the court decides otherwise, I suspect that neither Verstappen nor Red Bull are really happy about having won it in those circumstances.



The fact Verstappen is announced as Champion, and Red Bull Construction winners suggest they do make the rules, and the rest is simply wishful thinking.


----------



## Jody (13 Dec 2021)

ClichéGuevara said:


> The fact Verstappen is announced as Champion, *and Red Bull Construction* winners suggest they do make the rules, and the rest is simply wishful thinking.



Which season have you been watching?


----------



## MasterDabber (13 Dec 2021)

ClichéGuevara said:


> I'd say you misquoting the regulations to try and support what is a spurious argument (as confirmed by the FIA) is more akin to a rise.


I can't work out whether you're being serious or just trying a wind up....... either way, you really are hilarious.


----------



## matticus (13 Dec 2021)

> Mercedes claimed that there were two breaches of the Sporting Regulations (Article 48.12) namely that which states “..*any cars that have been lapped by the leader *will be required to pass the cars on the lead lap and the safety car” and
> 
> <snip>
> 
> ...



Red Bull are not speaking the same English as I speak here.  The two words have exactly the same effect in this sentence.


----------



## Reynard (13 Dec 2021)

I might be totally contrary to you gentlemen, as I *WOULD* like this to go to court.

Because it's not about the result, it's about the whole integrity of the sport - especially when the officials aren't man enough to admit it's been an omnishambles and do the right thing.

Masi was a deputy race director under Charlie Whiting. Due to circumstance, Masi was promoted to a job he does not have the ability or fortitude to carry out. The other was / is Scott Elkins, who is now the Formula E race director. The difference in professionalism between the two men is light years apart. The FIA definitely went for the wrong man IMHO, and now they're paying the price.


----------



## figbat (13 Dec 2021)

FishFright said:


> That Article 15.3 allows the Race Director to control the use of the safety car, which in our determination includes its deployment and withdrawal.
> 
> He's been winging it all season and bowing to pressure from who shouts the loudest.


Article 15.3: _"The Race Director shall have overriding authority in the following matters and the clerk of the course may give orders in respect of them only with his express agreement...
... e) The use of the safety car."_

However _"the use of the safety car"_ is managed in other articles. So he can say when the safety car goes out and comes in, but this triggers the respective articles according to the circumstances, which includes restart procedures and unlapping procedures. Those other articles do not have a clause stating "unless otherwise directed by the race director", so once triggered should be completed. On Sunday they weren't.


----------



## dave r (13 Dec 2021)

Reynard said:


> I might be totally contrary to you gentlemen, as I *WOULD* like this to go to court.
> 
> Because it's not about the result, it's about the whole integrity of the sport - especially when the officials aren't man enough to admit it's been an omnishambles and do the right thing.
> 
> Masi was a deputy race director under Charlie Whiting. Due to circumstance, Masi was promoted to a job he does not have the ability or fortitude to carry out. The other was / is Scott Elkins, who is now the Formula E race director. The difference in professionalism between the two men is light years apart. The FIA definitely went for the wrong man IMHO, and now they're paying the price.



Masi is in need of a sideways promotion into a job where he's out the way, then they need to appoint someone who can do the job and has the balls to stand up to the team principles and not be influenced by them..


----------



## figbat (13 Dec 2021)

dave r said:


> Masi is in need of a sideways promotion into a job where he's out the way, then they need to appoint someone who can do the job and has the balls to stand up to the team principles and not be influenced by them..


And stand up to Liberty and pressure to deliver a show rather than a sporting competition.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (13 Dec 2021)

Jody said:


> Which season have you been watching?



I was thinking ahead for after the appeal...or more likely, I had a brain fart there.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (13 Dec 2021)

It might be worthwhile reading the quote from Masi in here, from about 2 months ago wrt The Eifel GP v-a-v the procedure behind the SC:

https://www.racefans.net/2020/10/11...fety-car-was-used-to-make-race-more-exciting/


Extract:
The delay in ending the Safety Car period happened because of the length of time it took to wave the lapped cars through, said Masi.

“There’s a requirement in the sporting regulations to wave all the lapped cars passed. So from that point it was position six onwards that were still running. Between 10, 11 cars had to unlap themselves. And therefore the Safety Car period was a bit longer than what we would have normally expected.”

My summary - things were decided on the spot yesterday. The question is whether the Race Director has the ability to do that, contrary to the provisions of the Sporting Code.


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (13 Dec 2021)

Technically, on the last lap Hamilton gave up the place he'd illegally gained on the first lap. Great sportsmanship there.


----------



## classic33 (13 Dec 2021)

Beebo said:


> Anyone know what the bookmakers are doing at the moment?
> Do they pay out or not?
> Imagine putting a couple of grand on a Hamilton win at the start of the season. You’d feel totally robbed. Similarly if you’ve done the same for verstappen you’d want your money now.


Coral are currently going with the result as it stands. In before Thursday if you wish to cash in, on the drivers result and constructors result.

Can Red Bull take the constructors championship?


----------



## Jody (13 Dec 2021)

classic33 said:


> Can Red Bull take the constructors championship?



How are they going to do that?


----------



## Bonefish Blues (13 Dec 2021)

In other news Pit to Race Director comms will be stopped next year according to Ross Brawn.


----------



## matticus (13 Dec 2021)

Reynard said:


> Due to circumstance, Masi was promoted to a job he does not have the ability or fortitude to carry out. The other was / is Scott Elkins, who is now the Formula E race director. The difference in professionalism between the two men is light years apart. The FIA definitely went for the wrong man IMHO, and now they're paying the price.


Don't forget his response to the last bit of Toto whining:
-_ This is motor-racing Toto._

He deserves the job just for that.


----------



## FishFright (13 Dec 2021)

figbat said:


> Article 15.3: _"The Race Director shall have overriding authority in the following matters and the clerk of the course may give orders in respect of them only with his express agreement...
> ... e) The use of the safety car."_
> 
> However _"the use of the safety car"_ is managed in other articles. So he can say when the safety car goes out and comes in, but this triggers the respective articles according to the circumstances, which includes restart procedures and unlapping procedures. Those other articles do not have a clause stating "unless otherwise directed by the race director", so once triggered should be completed. On Sunday they weren't.



That was the reason given by the stewards and they generally have access to all the rules , unlike us who are just having fun at F1's expence.


----------



## figbat (13 Dec 2021)

FishFright said:


> That was the reason given by the stewards and they generally have access to all the rules , unlike us who are just having fun at F1's expence.


We also have access to all the rules.


----------



## FishFright (13 Dec 2021)

figbat said:


> We also have access to all the rules.



Come back when you've read them all , I won't bother as I've been there before and its a mad house once you start digging.


----------



## figbat (13 Dec 2021)

FishFright said:


> Come back when you've read them all , I won't bother as I've been there before and its a mad house once you start digging.


A few seasons ago I did read them all (and the technical regulations) - not a lot on that day. I’ve read the pertinent ones for 2021.


----------



## Rusty Nails (13 Dec 2021)

Tbh I lost interest in F1 as a fair and honest sporting spectacle many years ago, but I do see the need to have a result based upon sporting prowess and performance on the day.

I see unfairness both in allowing Verstappen to retain the win and in the rather arcane rules/interpretation that virtually stole the result from Hamilton.

Verstappen did overtake Hamilton and cross the line first and neither he nor his team cheated, while at the same time he was given a dubious advantage which stopped Hamilton winning.

The only fair way to settle this, which I know will not happen for all sorts of reasons, will be another, possibly shortened, race at the same circuit between the two drivers. In the absence of this the result must stand, even if there is always going to be a question mark over it.


----------



## Reynard (13 Dec 2021)

matticus said:


> Don't forget his response to the last bit of Toto whining:
> -_ This is motor-racing Toto._
> 
> He deserves the job just for that.



While I don't enjoy the teams whingeing and whining, (although in the past, it was still the case, albeit kept mostly behind closed doors), for Masi to say that, and then play "what rule shall we throw out of the rule book today" is a tad hypocritical, don't you think?

It's not motor racing. It's an unprofessional sh*tshow. On all sides.

F1 could learn a lot from the BTCC as to how the officials behave and how the rules should be applied.


----------



## gbb (13 Dec 2021)

And all all of this proves, is what a circus F1 is.
If they wanted an extraordinary end to the season and championship, they might well have deliberately engineered it. Its got everyones attention, perhaps that was always the aim. 
Any news (bad included) is good news as they say. It will pass, i think it's good for F1 to have another serious contender, something that's been missing for a long time. F1 has become boring, not a patch on years ago, who wants to see the same driver win year in year out ?...not me.


----------



## figbat (13 Dec 2021)

Rusty Nails said:


> The only fair way to settle this, which I know will not happen for all sorts of reasons, will be another, possibly shortened, race at the same circuit between the two drivers. In the absence of this the result must stand, even if there is always going to be a question mark over it.


Taken straight from the Pixar play book - this is how the Piston Cup was decided in Cars.

The other option is to declare the race a lap shorter (like the time the chequered flag went out a lap early). This hands it back to Lewis but as many have mentioned, I don't see them changing the winner of the race or championship and I have no beef with Max or RBR (in this particular case) who simply grasped an opportunity presented to them.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (13 Dec 2021)

gbb said:


> And all all of this proves, is what a circus F1 is.
> If they wanted an extraordinary end to the season and championship, they might well have deliberately engineered it. Its got everyones attention, perhaps that was always the aim.
> Any news (bad included) is good news as they say. It will pass, i think it's good for F1 to have another serious contender, something that's been missing for a long time. F1 has become boring, not a patch on years ago, who wants to see the same driver win year in year out ?...not me.


Thing is, the whole formula is thrown up in the air for next season, courtesy of the biggest change to the car specs in living memory, so who knows who'll be on top?


----------



## Rusty Nails (13 Dec 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Thing is, the whole formula is thrown up in the air for next season, courtesy of the biggest change to the car specs in living memory, so *who knows who'll be on top?*


The one with the best car, or do the changes neutralise the car?


----------



## T4tomo (13 Dec 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> 1980s?
> 
> You missed it in its prime. McManus, Pallo, Count Bartelli (lived in a bungalow just down the road) Kendo Nagasaki. Jumpers for goalposts, F1 cars that killed you to death if you even sat in them.


70/80's maybe I'm older than I thought! Pat Roach, later appeared in auf wiedersehen, Super destroyer Pete Roberys and of course Big Daddy & Giant Haystacks. All less fixed than F1 has become...


----------



## Bonefish Blues (13 Dec 2021)

Rusty Nails said:


> The one with the best car, or do the changes neutralise the car?


That's the intent - to allow more passing via closer following, but unless there's a Brawn or Lotus ground effect genius at work, it'll be budget-driven, I think.

ETA
Here:
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/...l-new-2022-f1-car.4OLg8DrXyzHzdoGrbqp6ye.html


----------



## Alex321 (13 Dec 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Thing is, the whole formula is thrown up in the air for next season, courtesy of the biggest change to the car specs in living memory, so who knows who'll be on top?


Some of us have been alive long enough to have seen bigger changes


----------



## Bonefish Blues (13 Dec 2021)

Alex321 said:


> Some of us have been alive long enough to have seen bigger changes


Which ones are you think about?


----------



## Alex321 (13 Dec 2021)

Rusty Nails said:


> The one with the best car, or do the changes neutralise the car?


They don't neutralise it completely, but they do I think reduce the impact somewhat.

The main impact of the changes is likely to be more overtaking as it will severely reduce the negative impact that following another car currently has.


----------



## Beebo (13 Dec 2021)

Rusty Nails said:


> The one with the best car, or do the changes neutralise the car?


The hope is that they will give closer wheel to wheel racing. 
The best drivers tend to race with the best cars. That’s always happened. 
The best jockeys get the best horses. 
The best 3 week stage racers get the best support riders. 
The best footballers play for the biggest teams.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (13 Dec 2021)

That's about the first thing there has been agreement on for a while 😊


----------



## figbat (13 Dec 2021)

Rusty Nails said:


> The one with the best car...


Not always. Consistent finishing in a moderately decent car will beat someone who frequently crashes the best car. Big rule changes tend to favour someone who interpreted the regulations uniquely and those who build a reliable car.


Bonefish Blues said:


> Which ones are you think about?


The change from V8 to turbo-hybrids was pretty fundamental.


----------



## Alex321 (13 Dec 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Which ones are you think about?


Kers & DRS. Turbocharged engines. Groundforce rules (with the new changes reintroducing groundforce effects to a significant extent). Rules banning refuelling, while at the same time requiring two different tyre compounds to be used, so forcing pit stops.

The changes for next year are certainly significant, and the biggest for a few years. But not the biggest "in living memory" IMO.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (13 Dec 2021)

Hmmm, not sure I agree - this is fundamentally changing and re-architecting the cars as opposed to changing PUs, fuel cell sizes et al.

A good primer here, which goes into much greater detail about the specifics of the changes:

https://the-race.com/formula-1/f1-2022-car-rule-changes-guide/


----------



## Reynard (13 Dec 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Thing is, the whole formula is thrown up in the air for next season, courtesy of the biggest change to the car specs in living memory, so who knows who'll be on top?



The banning of ground effect / side skirt cars midway through the 1982 season after a spate of really nasty accidents*, catching virtually everyone on the hop. I can just about remember this, as it was the first year I was into motor racing.

*one of the contributing factors to Gilles Villeneuve's fatal crash at Zolder, although not the reason behind it. With the side skirt cars, as soon as the venturi underneath was disrupted, the driver pretty well had zero control as the remainder of the aero was vestigal / minimal. Rear wings were really skinny and some cars had no front wing at all.


----------



## Reynard (13 Dec 2021)

figbat said:


> Not always. Consistent finishing in a moderately decent car will beat someone who frequently crashes the best car. Big rule changes tend to favour someone who interpreted the regulations uniquely and those who build a reliable car.



Keke Rosberg in 1982 in the Cosworth-powered Williams springs to mind. He only won one race all season, but kept on racking up the points while everyone else didn't.


----------



## Illaveago (13 Dec 2021)

This looks interesting ! https://www.fia.com/race-against-manipulation


----------



## Illaveago (13 Dec 2021)

figbat said:


> A few seasons ago I did read them all (and the technical regulations) - not a lot on that day. I’ve read the pertinent ones for 2021.


Is there a section on begatting ?


----------



## Illaveago (13 Dec 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> It's really not. That's why in the Concord Agreement there's provision for ICAS to act as the final arbitrator.


What have the Inca's got to do with it ?


----------



## icowden (13 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> This looks interesting ! https://www.fia.com/race-against-manipulation


Shall we all report the FIA to itself?


----------



## Illaveago (13 Dec 2021)

Jody said:


> How are they going to do that?


AH ! That will be in the next episode !


----------



## Illaveago (13 Dec 2021)

icowden said:


> Shall we all report the FIA to itself?


Good idea! That will really get them confused !


----------



## matticus (13 Dec 2021)

Reynard said:


> While I don't enjoy the teams whingeing and whining, (although in the past, it was still the case, albeit kept mostly behind closed doors), for Masi to say that, and then play "what rule shall we throw out of the rule book today" is a tad hypocritical, don't you think?


That's a different issue.

I think Toto deserved a slap-down after this:
"_Michael, please no safety car, it interferes with the race._"


----------



## Illaveago (13 Dec 2021)

gbb said:


> And all all of this proves, is what a circus F1 is.
> If they wanted an extraordinary end to the season and championship, they might well have deliberately engineered it. Its got everyones attention, perhaps that was always the aim.
> Any news (bad included) is good news as they say. It will pass, i think it's good for F1 to have another serious contender, something that's been missing for a long time. F1 has become boring, not a patch on years ago, who wants to see the same driver win year in year out ?...not me.


To some extent yes . But next year's rules seem to benefit Red Bull again from what I have seen . Mercedes have a system where excess electrical power spins up the turbo thus reducing turbo lag . From what I have read it seems that Red bull want this banned .


----------



## Bonefish Blues (13 Dec 2021)

matticus said:


> That's a different issue.
> 
> I think Toto deserved a slap-down after this:
> "_Michael, please no safety car, it interferes with the race._"


And Christian's "We only need one lap Michael" a swift backhander, too.

Both guys doing their best to influence the Race Director, who was all at sea, faced with a nightmare scenario. Any other race and it's have finished under SC, but I think his mind was filled with "How do I get them to race again before the end"

If the report is correct, thank goodness it's going to stop for 2022 - but it has been happening because of Masi's indecision - and then further contributing to it, and so on...


----------



## Illaveago (13 Dec 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> That's the intent - to allow more passing via closer following, but unless there's a Brawn or Lotus ground effect genius at work, it'll be budget-driven, I think.
> 
> ETA
> Here:
> https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/...l-new-2022-f1-car.4OLg8DrXyzHzdoGrbqp6ye.html


It is farcical all of these rule changes to bring down the costs ! Every team will have to make a new car according to the new rules . How can that be reducing costs ?


----------



## Bonefish Blues (13 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> It is farcical all of these rule changes to bring down the costs ! Every team will have to make a new car according to the new rules . How can that be reducing costs ?


They have to buy parts from Eurocarparts - and they always have a sale on 😊


----------



## Illaveago (13 Dec 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Hmmm, not sure I agree - this is fundamentally changing and re-architecting the cars as opposed to changing PUs, fuel cell sizes et al.
> 
> A good primer here, which goes into much greater detail about the specifics of the changes:
> 
> https://the-race.com/formula-1/f1-2022-car-rule-changes-guide/


Wasn't the reason for banning ground effect years ago was that if the car hit a bump it could take off like a plane ?


----------



## Reynard (13 Dec 2021)

matticus said:


> That's a different issue.
> 
> I think Toto deserved a slap-down after this:
> "_Michael, please no safety car, it interferes with the race._"



No it's not. Because no one was behaving with decorum - not Toto, not Horner, and most definitely not Masi.

The whole thing makes *everyone* look stupid and unprofessional.


----------



## Reynard (13 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> Wasn't the reason for banning ground effect years ago was that if the car hit a bump it could take off like a plane ?



Umm, I mentioned this a little while ago... 



Reynard said:


> The banning of ground effect / side skirt cars midway through the 1982 season after a spate of really nasty accidents*, catching virtually everyone on the hop. I can just about remember this, as it was the first year I was into motor racing.
> 
> *one of the contributing factors to Gilles Villeneuve's fatal crash at Zolder, although not the reason behind it. With the side skirt cars, as soon as the venturi underneath was disrupted, the driver pretty well had zero control as the remainder of the aero was vestigal / minimal. Rear wings were really skinny and some cars had no front wing at all.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (13 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> Wasn't the reason for banning ground effect years ago was that if the car hit a bump it could take off like a plane ?


Discussed earlier thread that relying on it for all your grip is dangerous, but this is part of a package which has been tested and simulated within an inch, so presumably it's just one part of the broader package.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (13 Dec 2021)

Reynard said:


> No it's not. Because no one was behaving with decorum - not Toto, not Horner, and most definitely not Masi.
> 
> The whole thing makes *everyone* look stupid and unprofessional.


It's the very definition of unedifying


----------



## Reynard (13 Dec 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Discussed earlier thread that relying on it for all your grip is dangerous, but this is part of a package which has been tested and simulated within an inch, so presumably it's just one part of the broader package.



Race car engineering has come along light years in the last four decades. Back then, it was still a "let's chuck it on the car and see if it works" kind of thing. Whereas now, computer modelling of chassis structures, impacts and aerodynamics is par for course, and when coupled with small-scale models in a standard engineering lab, can narrow down engineering performance and solutions to close to optimum before a part has even been made.

The advantage of the former approach is all the cars looked different, and it was up to the teams' designers and engineers to think up sometimes completely unique solutions to assorted problems. Of course, you had a lot of testing in those days. But think the Brabham fan car, the twin chassis Lotus 88, all the teams which developed active ride and adjustable suspension so that a car complied to the ride height test in parc ferme, but that could be lowered on track once a car was up to speed...

Wind tunnels in the late 80s / early 90s were a big step up, and then in the late 90s / early 2000s, computer modelling became much more accurate and dependable. (I know, I was involved in some of that development). Sadly, this also massively increased spending, which put pay to a lot of the "garagistes"

The downside of the current situation is that with the computing power being what it is, both from statics, dynamics and CFD modelling perspectives, the mathematics takes everyone to a very similar place in terms of what works best.

Though having said that, the downside of all that computing and wind tunnels is also an upside, as it gives the current crop of F1 engineers a much better understanding of their cars than their counterparts from the late 70s and early 80s. So I'm not sure we'll repeat some of those whopping shunts from then, but then of course, simulations can only take you so far. Until the cars actually run on circuit, we'll just have to hope they've got it right.


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (13 Dec 2021)

I still think the sport would be massively improved if the drivers did their own pitstops.


----------



## Illaveago (13 Dec 2021)

They say they want more overtaking . Well it was their fault by making all these twisty windy circuits that they went crazy about years ago. I think there was one designer that they particularly favoured .


----------



## Rusty Nails (13 Dec 2021)

Reynard said:


> Umm, I mentioned this a little while ago...


I think you did , but I understood @Illaveago. 



Reynard said:


> With the side skirt cars, as soon as the venturi underneath was disrupted, the driver pretty well had zero control as the remainder of the aero was vestigal / minimal.





Illaveago said:


> Wasn't the reason for banning ground effect years ago was that if the car hit a bump it could take off like a plane ?


----------



## Bonefish Blues (13 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> They say they want more overtaking . Well it was their fault by making all these twisty windy circuits that they went crazy about years ago. I think there was one designer that they particularly favoured .


Tilke. He did Saudi, so he's very much still the 'in house' guy.


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (13 Dec 2021)

Seems to me some of the new tracks just involve concreting over a small town and painting a course on it. Bring back gravel traps and the like that brought real consequences.


----------



## Reynard (13 Dec 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Tilke. He did Saudi, so he's very much still the 'in house' guy.



Although outside of the "inner circle" he isn't much liked from what I gather.

He's ruined some perfectly good older circuits as well.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (13 Dec 2021)

Reynard said:


> Although outside of the "inner circle" he isn't much liked from what I gather.
> 
> He's ruined some perfectly good older circuits as well.


Agree. He only has one set of crayons, sadly.


----------



## Fat Lars (13 Dec 2021)

ClichéGuevara said:


> *I'm not getting into a pointless debate*, and the comments above are all well and good, but my main point was that whether good, bad or indifferent, the actions were not against the rules.
> 
> Hamilton slowed to try to trap Verstappen, which left him further than 10 lengths behind the safety car, and he gained an advantage going off the track, (when other drivers stayed on in exactly the same scenario) and never gave the position back.
> 
> ...


What's this post about then ?


----------



## Drago (13 Dec 2021)

I've heard that Hamilton has shelved plans to retire from F1 and start his own Musical Youth tribute band.

It seems he can't pass the Dutchie on the left hand side.


----------



## Illaveago (13 Dec 2021)

ClichéGuevara said:


> It's been detailed in several articles and by commentators, and summarised in the FIA report.
> 
> "The Race Director also stated that it had long been agreed by all the Teams that where possible
> it was highly desirable for the race to end in a “green” condition (i.e. not under a Safety Car). "
> ...


Masi initially stated one thing and then later changed it . It wasn't an immediate correction but there was a time delay .


----------



## derrick (13 Dec 2021)

Apparently Lewis has asked Mercedes to drop the case. Not sure how true this is.


----------



## Drago (13 Dec 2021)

At the moment there is no case to drop. They haven't yet lodged a formal appeal about the Stewards decision. I suspect Toto fell off his bike again on his way to post the letter.


----------



## Beebo (13 Dec 2021)

derrick said:


> Apparently Lewis has asked Mercedes to drop the case. Not sure how true this is.


It wouldn’t surprise me.
He comes out of this looking good. No way does he want to win in the courts. 
Verstappen even said he would have been more angry if it was the other way round.


----------



## Illaveago (13 Dec 2021)

I used to have respect for Christian Horner, Adrian Newey, David Coulthard , and Mark Webber . Not any more ! To say that Red Bull had won the race according to the official verdict when Lewis Hamilton had led for most of the race and then to have it snatched away in such a manner to me seems more like a form of plagerism, they have taken somebody else's work and called it their own !


----------



## FishFright (13 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> I used to have respect for Christian Horner, Adrian Newey, David Coulthard , and Mark Webber . Not any more ! To say that Red Bull had won the race according to the official verdict when Lewis Hamilton had led for most of the race and then to have it snatched away in such a manner to me seems more like a form of plagerism, they have taken somebody else's work and called it their own !



Strange, I never saw their names on the list of stewards this weekend.


----------



## classic33 (13 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> I used to have respect for Christian Horner, Adrian Newey, David Coulthard , and Mark Webber . Not any more ! To say that Red Bull had won the race according to the official verdict when Lewis Hamilton had led for most of the race and then to have it snatched away in such a manner to me seems more like a form of plagerism, they have taken somebody else's work and called it their own !


Russell was robbed of his first GP win by the very team he was driving for last year, Mercedes. With a late pit stop, called by them.

Just my opinion. But to have someone jump in the car and do better than the driver he replaced, winning at the first time of asking/trying couldn't be allowed.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (13 Dec 2021)

Peter Windsor giving a very lucid analysis after the dust has started to settle:


View: https://youtu.be/j4j-HOtNDMw


----------



## PaulSB (14 Dec 2021)

johnnyb47 said:


> Jeremy Vine on Radio 2 will be talking about this later on, Should be interesting 🤔





derrick said:


> WTF does he know.


JV believes he's an expert on everything yet in fact knows little about anything. Appalling journalism.

I have only a passing interest in F1 but sat down to watch the final ten laps. At the end I didn't properly understand what had happened and caught various bits on the BBC news by people speaking what may as well have been double Dutch. I read this thread only to feel even more confused.

Eddie Jordan on Monday's BBC Breakfast was clear and succinct and full marks to him. The only person I've heard discuss the subject in a comprehensible manner.

Overall I've been left with the impression the sport has become a complete joke with a minefield of rules which overrule each other. I'll never be a big fan and now know it truly is just a ridiculous circus.

That's a shame for F1 and probably the impression given to millions and one which will be very difficult to shake off.

I still don't understand what "unlapped" means? Do those drivers drive round the track to catch up to the back of the field before racing starts again?


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (14 Dec 2021)

Can't be bothered with all the nit-picking over this clause and that paragraph sub-section. 

Mercedes had the same opportunities to put fresh tyres on that Red Bull had. The argument that this would have put them behind RB holds no water as this would have given them exactly the advantage Verstappen ended up with - fresh rubber and a faster car.

To those whining about Hamilton's lead being wiped out by the safety car - erm - that's what happens with safety cars, sometimes multiple times in one race. All this blithering nonsense about teams being 3-0 up etc etc just shows incredible ignorance.

Mercedes gambled and lost. Red Bull gambled and won. That's sport.


----------



## Drago (14 Dec 2021)

Im pretty much with Joey. Bottom line is Mercedes had the same chance as everyone else to do their boots and chose not do so. It's only when Mercedes make a bad call that they suddenly start paying great attention to everything else.

Mercedes have been told it can't go to a panel of arbtitration, which leaves only the FIA themselves and I don't think that dog will bark.

But whatever Mercedes do or don't do Max is champion. There is no rule that allows the stewards to unwind the results by one lap just to suit a team, and the stewards have already pointed out that would be short of full race distance so would not a valid race.

There's a miniscule outside chance the result could be decalred void - doubtful, as there would be a massive complaint from teams that lost points and therefore money - but Max would still be champion anyway.

Max himself did nothing wrong at that point, so cannot receive a time penalty or points deduction.

So whichever way the cards fall Max remains champion.

As there is no potential result within the rules that would gift Hamilton the crown, as time goes by Mercedes are simply looking more and more like sore losers. I can't say i'd be pleased either, but theyre in the sport for the publicity it brings the firm so why continue a course of action that cheapens that reputation by associstion and which will never bring a result that would make them happy?

I don't blame Masi too much. The rules are over complex, badly written, and in the case of 48.13 somewhat contradictory. If nothing else comes of this the sporting code needs seriously sorting out. I would also like to see the race director totally incommunicado from the teams during a race, except during an emergency. These team principals whining and trying to influence the race director should face serious sanction for such behaviour.


----------



## Illaveago (14 Dec 2021)

Drago said:


> Im pretty much with Joey. Bottom line is Mercedes had the same chance as everyone else to do their boots and chose not do so. It's only when Mercedes make a bad call that they suddenly start paying great attention to everything else.
> 
> Mercedes have been told it can't go to a panel of arbtitration, which leaves only the FIA themselves and I don't think that dog will bark.
> 
> ...


I agree with some of the points you have made, however Max was 12 seconds behind Lewis and so had time to react to whatever he did . He had lost the race at that point so whatever he did didn't have much impact on the outcome . It was a gamble which paid off ! Lewis however was in the lead and needed information as to what was going on, which was relayed to him by his team . The fact that Masi changed his mind changed the whole race outcome . It was a bad decision! Plus he modified the rules to concoct a result which has angered a lot of people and made the sport look staged, the FIA farcical and the race director incompetent!
The winner was announced before scrutineering had examined the cars so the result could have changed .
Mercedes may decide not to pursue the matter as they do not like bad publicity but something needs to be done to the organisation and should be done publicly so that people can see that action is being taken .


----------



## Salad Dodger (14 Dec 2021)

I have been a motorsports fan all my life, but I have become increasingly disillusioned F1 in recent years, and since the Spa debacle I have lost all respect for it.
I still follow rallying via the media, although that, too, has changed in recent years to replace endurance with outright sprint speed.
For the best racing, I favour motorbikes.


----------



## Alex321 (14 Dec 2021)

PaulSB said:


> I still don't understand what "unlapped" means? Do those drivers drive round the track to catch up to the back of the field before racing starts again?



Yes, that is exactly what it means - normally.

But in this case, Masi did not wait until they caught up before restarting racing. If he had, then reaching would not have restarted, as the safety car would have been out for one more lap.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (14 Dec 2021)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> Can't be bothered with all the nit-picking over this clause and that paragraph sub-section.
> 
> Mercedes had the same opportunities to put fresh tyres on that Red Bull had. The argument that this would have put them behind RB holds no water as this would have given them exactly the advantage Verstappen ended up with - fresh rubber and a faster car.
> 
> ...


The rules* weren't followed - that's the issue.

Characterising people expressing a view as 'whining' is unhelpful at best.

The Peter Windsor link above is c15 mins and very lucid on the issues.

*On which Teams make decisions


----------



## FishFright (14 Dec 2021)

Drago said:


> Im pretty much with Joey. Bottom line is Mercedes had the same chance as everyone else to do their boots and chose not do so. It's only when Mercedes make a bad call that they suddenly start paying great attention to everything else.
> 
> Mercedes have been told it can't go to a panel of arbtitration, which leaves only the FIA themselves and I don't think that dog will bark.
> 
> ...



I agree with much of you said but do you have a link for the Mercedes not being able to go to arbitration ? The only one I can find is from the Fail so ...


----------



## jowwy (14 Dec 2021)

Drago said:


> Im pretty much with Joey. Bottom line is Mercedes had the same chance as everyone else to do their boots and chose not do so. It's only when Mercedes make a bad call that they suddenly start paying great attention to everything else.
> 
> Mercedes have been told it can't go to a panel of arbtitration, which leaves only the FIA themselves and I don't think that dog will bark.
> 
> ...


yet there was plenty of manipulation of the rules to gift Max the Crown........hmmmmm


----------



## figbat (14 Dec 2021)

This idea that Mercedes had the same option as Red Bull doesn’t fly for me. Yes, they did, but they have to think and react quickly based on data in hand, data which includes the consequences of various scenarios based on the sporting regulations. Mercedes wanted to maintain the lead because if they hadn’t then yes, they would have had fresh tyres but they would be behind Max, who had shown that he is not willing to be overtaken cleanly and if anything happened that put them both out then Max wins it. Hold the high ground. Plus they knew that there wasn’t time to unlap all the cars and restart the race, so they win. Or they could have restarted without unlapping which would have given a good spectacle of Max trying to chase down Lewis. Both of these options are ‘legal’ and favour Mercedes, hence a good reason to stay out.

As I said before, they failed to account for the Masi factor whereby he decided that he can make up or ignore regulations as he sees fit.


----------



## FishFright (14 Dec 2021)

figbat said:


> This idea that Mercedes had the same option as Red Bull doesn’t fly for me. Yes, they did, but they have to think and react quickly based on data in hand, data which includes the consequences of various scenarios based on the sporting regulations. Mercedes wanted to maintain the lead because if they hadn’t then yes, they would have had fresh tyres but they would be behind Max, who had shown that he is not willing to be overtaken cleanly and if anything happened that put them both out then Max wins it. Hold the high ground. Plus they knew that there wasn’t time to unlap all the cars and restart the race, so they win. Or they could have restarted without unlapping which would have given a good spectacle of Max trying to chase down Lewis. Both of these options are ‘legal’ and favour Mercedes, hence a good reason to stay out.
> 
> As I said before, they failed to account for the Masi factor whereby he decided that he can make up or ignore regulations as he sees fit.



Mercedes went for track position over grip and didn't pay off. RB did the opposite of what ever Merc did because to copy them would always leave them in second. Pretty basic stuff.

As for Masi , he needs to go because of his performance all season not just at the last 2 races,


----------



## classic33 (14 Dec 2021)

Where was the Course steward in all this decision making?
Heard him referred to a number of times, but only the Race Director is being held to blame. Maybe it's because he wasn't heard over the radio.

Less than two months ago, Timo Glock, speaking to Felipe Massa for the first time about the 2008 Brazilian GP in which he "slowed down" to allow Hamilton to pass, revealed that he still gets accused of doing it deliberately. Gifting Hamilton the position, and the title that year. Massa was clearly taken back by this news.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (14 Dec 2021)

FishFright said:


> Mercedes went for track position over grip and didn't pay off. RB did the opposite of what ever Merc did because to copy them would always leave them in second. Pretty basic stuff.
> 
> As for Masi , he needs to go because of his performance all season not just at the last 2 races,


Again, Peter Windsor, who has forgotten more than I've ever known about F1 suggests he's actually the right man for the job, but he's been put in an impossible position, without the necessary resources to allow him to do it successfully.


----------



## Illaveago (14 Dec 2021)

I think a lot of emotion has been stirred up over the season . Christian Horner started off by gloating that they had a better car for the season. Toto Wolf was very calm despite their car not performing too well against their rivals car . Due to rule changes Mercedes found it difficult to get their car sorted out . 
Spa was a complete fiasco! Hours of waiting and then finally a couple of laps under the safety car to call it s race .
Brazil was a shambles. Red Bull were surprised by the speed of the Mercedes with the new engine and protested the rear wing saying that it flexed too much and was therefore giving Mercedes a speed advantage . Mercedes had protested Red Bulls wing earlier in the year as it was flexing at speed . I suppose it was payback time . Lewis's wing was found to be out by 0.2 mm on one side and so was penalised to start at the back of the grid .
It was during the race that Masi's authority came into question . Allowing Max to go way off the track on one corner taking Lewis with him. He later started weaving to prevent Lewis from overtaking. He wasn't punished for any of that . In the following race Max was given a 10 second penalty for braking hard and causing an accident but the penalty had no bearing on the result .
In the last race Max had an advantage in the points standing by having won more race than Lewis . If they both collided and were taken out Max stood to win . Masi had ruled that such an action would be penalised. By what ? A time penalty ? At the time of the last yellow flag teams were operating under the present rules . They didn't know that Masi was going to change the rules at a whim ! Red Bull had nothing to lose doing a pit stop . Mercedes had track position and we're going by the until then existing rules and didn't know that the race director was going to change them . By letting just the 5 cars between the leaders through also prevented other cars from taking advantage and racing for position . If anything other teams should be questioning the result !


----------



## derrick (14 Dec 2021)

I don't think it is a victory to be proud of.


----------



## FishFright (14 Dec 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Again, Peter Windsor, who has forgotten more than I've ever known about F1 suggests he's actually the right man for the job, but he's been put in an impossible position, without the necessary resources to allow him to do it successfully.



As race director his job is to make sure the race is run safely and to the rules , he's not been doing that.

As for Peter Windsor, I used to love his columns but he's been useless for years. This makes me sad.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (14 Dec 2021)

FishFright said:


> As race director his job is to make sure the race is run safely and to the rules , he's not been doing that.
> 
> As for Peter Windsor, I used to love his columns but he's been useless for years. This makes me sad.


Agree with the first, disagree with the second 😊


----------



## gbb (14 Dec 2021)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> Can't be bothered with all the nit-picking over this clause and that paragraph sub-section.
> 
> Mercedes had the same opportunities to put fresh tyres on that Red Bull had. The argument that this would have put them behind RB holds no water as this would have given them exactly the advantage Verstappen ended up with - fresh rubber and a faster car.
> 
> ...


Bob on, the whole idea is to be first past the post, anything that happens between the start and the finish that is within the rules, even if you dont like them, is fair game.
Ultimately, Verstappen won, i think that in itself is better for an ailing sport than anything the clowns running it could ever be.
Liverpool in the 70s, got sick of them winning everything.
Manchester United, ditto.
Schumacher, ditto.
Hamilton, ditto.
Theres no interest (for me) if one person or team dominates so utterly and completely...and thats coming from someone who would formerly always support the home player, driver, team.


----------



## Beebo (14 Dec 2021)

derrick said:


> I don't think it is a victory to be proud of.


Max seems to disagree. 
Seeing Horner gloating whilst knowing it was a very lucky break doesn’t look great.


----------



## Reynard (14 Dec 2021)

classic33 said:


> Where was the Course steward in all this decision making?
> Heard him referred to a number of times, but only the Race Director is being held to blame. Maybe it's because he wasn't heard over the radio.
> 
> Less than two months ago, Timo Glock, speaking to Felipe Massa for the first time about the 2008 Brazilian GP in which he "slowed down" to allow Hamilton to pass, revealed that he still gets accused of doing it deliberately. Gifting Hamilton the position, and the title that year. Massa was clearly taken back by this news.



From what I gather, Masi overruled the Clerk of the Course.

Which is unusual from what I know of how (smaller) race meetings are run. Admittedly I'm no expert on this, but as far as I am aware, usually, the buck stops with the Clerk of the Course, with he or she being the senior Judge of Fact on site.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (14 Dec 2021)

The C of the C is responsible for the operation of the circuit, and primarily for liaison between the Race Director and Marshals.

The RD is definitely responsible for the operation of the Safety Car, liaising with the COftheC regarding this, as it relates to track clearance, Marshal safety etc.

There's also the Official Starter (something Charlie used to do, but became a separate role after his death)

And so on.... Here's a good summary:
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/f...-they-do-how-are-they-chosen-6500572/6500572/


----------



## classic33 (14 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> I think a lot of emotion has been stirred up over the season . Christian Horner started off by gloating that they had a better car for the season. Toto Wolf was very calm despite their car not performing too well against their rivals car . Due to rule changes Mercedes found it difficult to get their car sorted out .
> Spa was a complete fiasco! Hours of waiting and then finally a couple of laps under the safety car to call it s race .
> Brazil was a shambles. Red Bull were surprised by the speed of the Mercedes with the new engine and protested the rear wing saying that it flexed too much and was therefore giving Mercedes a speed advantage . Mercedes had protested Red Bulls wing earlier in the year as it was flexing at speed . I suppose it was payback time . *Lewis's wing was found to be out by 0.2 mm on one side and so was penalised to start at the back of the grid .*
> It was during the race that Masi's authority came into question . Allowing Max to go way off the track on one corner taking Lewis with him. He later started weaving to prevent Lewis from overtaking. He wasn't punished for any of that . In the following race Max was given a 10 second penalty for braking hard and causing an accident but the penalty had no bearing on the result .
> In the last race Max had an advantage in the points standing by having won more race than Lewis . If they both collided and were taken out Max stood to win . Masi had ruled that such an action would be penalised. By what ? A time penalty ? At the time of the last yellow flag teams were operating under the present rules . They didn't know that Masi was going to change the rules at a whim ! Red Bull had nothing to lose doing a pit stop . Mercedes had track position and we're going by the until then existing rules and didn't know that the race director was going to change them . By letting just the 5 cars between the leaders through also prevented other cars from taking advantage and racing for position . If anything other teams should be questioning the result !


Didn't Wolff say that they were concentrating on next years cars, before the start of the season.
All teams agreed to the rules, on what was legal on their cars, long before the season started
The wing remains impounded, Mercedes not wanting it back. It failed to meet the regulations, in that it opened too far under DRS, tough.
Shumacher/Ferrari and barge boards anyone? 0.7mm too big.

Verstappen also fined for touching another car in parc fermé.

Or, if neither finished/finished in the top ten.


----------



## Reynard (14 Dec 2021)

classic33 said:


> Shumacher/Ferrari and barge boards anyone? 0.7mm too big.



It was actually 5mm

I remember the FIA then ruled that barge boards then had to be within 5mm of the specified size, letting Ferrari clean off the hook. That was in 1999, and if Ferrari had been thrown out, Frentzen in the Jordan would have been World Champion that year instead of Mika Hakkinen.

It was then that the joke that FIA stood for Ferrari International Assistance got going...


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (14 Dec 2021)

The wags are hard at it


----------



## Reynard (14 Dec 2021)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> The wags are hard at it
> 
> View attachment 621956



But is it any better than us singing "Jingle bells, Ayrton smells, Alain ran away" back in the day...


----------



## Drago (14 Dec 2021)

I see that Ross Brawn has anniu ced that from next season teams will no be in direct contact with the Race Director during the race as as to avoid any distraction and/or any chance of undue influence. Id the RD wants to talk to the team principals he call them.

And too right. Mthe team principals, included the dyed haired german bloke, are responsible in part for bringing this about.

And in other news, Max is formally crowned as world champion on Thursday. If Meecedes don't lodge their appeal *and *have it heard, considered and ruked upon by then then Max is champion and that is that. Not that there is any penalty that can be applied to Max anyway, as he didn't actually do anyrhing wrong. 

Max is champion, there is no going back, that is that, so get over it Mercedes. The time and effort your senior executives are wasting on this matter could be spent preparing for next season instead.


----------



## Drago (14 Dec 2021)

Reynard said:


> But is it any better than us singing "Jingle bells, Ayrton smells, Alain ran away" back in the day...


Much better. This is far more sophisticated.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (14 Dec 2021)

Drago said:


> I see that Ross Brawn has anniu ced that from next season teams will no be in direct contact with the Race Director during the race as as to avoid any distraction and/or any chance of undue influence. Id the RD wants to talk to the team principals he call them.
> 
> And too right. Mthe team principals, included the dyed haired german bloke, are responsible in part for bringing this about.
> 
> ...


You are Dominic Raab aicmfp 

https://www.indy100.com/politics/dominic-raab-police-investigate-past-b1970410


----------



## matticus (14 Dec 2021)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> The wags are hard at it
> 
> View attachment 621956


I'm confused - isn't Max 1-0 ahead?

(unless you count his 3rd places in 2019/20 ... )

Sorry!


----------



## Drago (14 Dec 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> You are Dominic Raab aicmfp
> 
> https://www.indy100.com/politics/dominic-raab-police-investigate-past-b1970410


Keep it quiet though Boney, I get enough grief from fatty Johnson as it is.


----------



## Beebo (14 Dec 2021)

Drago said:


> I see that Ross Brawn has anniu ced that from next season teams will no be in direct contact with the Race Director during the race as as to avoid any distraction and/or any chance of undue influence. Id the RD wants to talk to the team principals he call them.
> 
> And too right. Mthe team principals, included the dyed haired german bloke, are responsible in part for bringing this about.
> 
> ...


I’d be surprised if Merc do push through an appeal. 
They don’t want to win via the courts. What they want is an apology from the authorities confirming that they go this wrong. 
I agree that Verstappen didn’t do anything wrong but neither did Hamilton.


----------



## Grant Fondo (14 Dec 2021)

Interested to see how Bottas gets on at Alfa .... him leaving Merc got a bit overshadowed ... no idea why? Good luck to the lad anyway


----------



## Reynard (14 Dec 2021)

Drago said:


> Much better. This is far more sophisticated.



We were 13 year old schoolgirls at the time (1988). What do you expect?


----------



## Bonefish Blues (14 Dec 2021)

Drago said:


> Keep it quiet though Boney, I get enough grief from fatty Johnson as it is.


One day all this will be yours.




Goes away to offer a silent prayer


----------



## Bonefish Blues (14 Dec 2021)

Beebo said:


> I’d be surprised if Merc do push through an appeal.
> They don’t want to win via the courts. What they want is an apology from the authorities confirming that they go this wrong.
> I agree that Verstappen didn’t do anything wrong but neither did Hamilton.


I think they will want to prove their point in the ICAS, but with no expectation that the remedy will be the reversal of the WDC.


----------



## Reynard (14 Dec 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> I think they will want to prove their point in the ICAS, but with no expectation that the remedy will be the reversal of the WDC.



This.

Because otherwise, who polices the policemen?


----------



## Illaveago (14 Dec 2021)

classic33 said:


> Didn't Wolff say that they were concentrating on next years cars, before the start of the season.
> All teams agreed to the rules, on what was legal on their cars, long before the season started
> The wing remains impounded, Mercedes not wanting it back. It failed to meet the regulations, in that it opened too far under DRS, tough.
> Shumacher/Ferrari and barge boards anyone? 0.7mm too big.
> ...


I think he said it around mid season. I think it might have been in reply to why they weren't doing so well .


----------



## Illaveago (14 Dec 2021)

Do the car's still run with a wooden plank underneath or has that gone now ?


----------



## Grant Fondo (14 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> Do the car's still run with a wooden plank underneath or has that gone now ?


No he retired after the last race.


----------



## figbat (14 Dec 2021)

Whilst there’s no penalty that can be applied to Max, they could declare the race 1 lap shorter (hence give it to Lewis). However the time for that has long past - nobody wants to see the championship overturned now. But an admittance and apology wouldn’t go amiss, partly for Merc and Lewis but more for the fans.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (14 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> I think he said it around mid season. I think it might have been in reply to why they weren't doing so well .


https://racingnews365.com/mercedes-reveal-they-never-spent-their-2021-development-tokens


----------



## Bonefish Blues (14 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> Do the car's still run with a wooden plank underneath or has that gone now ?


It's now some sort of composite, not wood, but it's still there to regulate ride height.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (14 Dec 2021)

figbat said:


> Whilst there’s no penalty that can be applied to Max, they could declare the race 1 lap shorter (hence give it to Lewis). However the time for that has long past - nobody wants to see the championship overturned now. But an admittance and apology wouldn’t go amiss, partly for Merc and Lewis but more for the fans.


Were I a betting man (and I'm very much not, having worked for a betting company and understanding the odds) I'd say that one likely (most likely?) outcome would be the voiding of the last race result and removal of points. No change to WDC, where Max would win on victories (Spa!), but IIRC the WCC order might then change between Ferrari & Maccy L, precipitating another shitstorm, because that's where the real money is.

Or something else might happen


----------



## Drago (14 Dec 2021)

figbat said:


> Whilst there’s no penalty that can be applied to Max, they could declare the race 1 lap shorter (hence give it to Lewis).


No, the race would then not be full race distance and would be void. End result is Max still wins.


----------



## jowwy (14 Dec 2021)

Drago said:


> No, the race would then not be full race distance and would be void. End result is Max still wins.


Spa wasnt full race distance either, so a presidence has already been set that a shortened race result can stand……


----------



## Alex321 (14 Dec 2021)

Drago said:


> No, the race would then not be full race distance and would be void. End result is Max still wins.


The race does not become void just by not being full distance.

There have been a number of races in the past which have not gone the full distance (or time in a slow race). After two laps but less than 75% distance, half points would be awarded (which is what happened at Spa this season), and after 75% distance or more, full points are awarded.


----------



## Drago (15 Dec 2021)

Spa was settled prior to the end of the event, not days after, so the precedent has not been set. SPA triggered the half points rule - there is no similar "unwind the laps until there is a result that the complainer is happy with" regulation. 

Toto can hardly complain about regulations being broken on the one hand, and then demand a result that is also not covered by regulations on the other. 

The stewards have already ruled upon this.

Max is formally designated world champion at the FIA award event tomorrow, and thats the end of that. No mechanism exists to dethrone him after that, and no mechanosm exists to penailise him prior to that as he has done nothing wrong himself.

Mercedes have zero chance of lodging a complaint, having it considered and accepted, the FIA convening a panel and the entire case being heard, concluded and ruled upon before then (I'm sure that in the remote event that they tried to speed it through the RB lawyers would put on one hell of a fillibuster), so its over and done now. We may as well get used to it.


----------



## Illaveago (15 Dec 2021)

Beebo said:


> Anyone know what the bookmakers are doing at the moment?
> Do they pay out or not?
> Imagine putting a couple of grand on a Hamilton win at the start of the season. You’d feel totally robbed. Similarly if you’ve done the same for verstappen you’d want your money now.


I just looked to see what the odds were on either driver to win .
Hamilton 8 to 13
Verstappen 2 to 1
So if you had bet on Max you would have doubled your money .


----------



## figbat (15 Dec 2021)

Canada, 2018. The chequered flag was shown on lap 69 instead of lap 70. The result was originally given as the positions at lap 69 but later altered to those at lap 68. It didn’t change the top 10 but did impact who took the fastest lap.


----------



## Beebo (15 Dec 2021)

I’m sure Mercedes and their lawyers are just a clever as the collective brains on CC. They will realise the chances of overturning the result are very low and would produce negative PR. But they also appear to want to prove a point and show the world that they were hard done by. 
Instead of a long drawn out court case it could be wrapped up fairly quickly with all parties including F1, FIA, Merc and RB making a joint statement saying it was a total mess, the title was won in the wrong circumstances, it was a shambles and we are sorry. 
If Hamilton had suffered a puncture on the last lap, or a freak thunderstorm happened then I don’t think anyone would have an issue with a random act of god deciding the championship, but this manmade mishap just seems to be against natural justice.


----------



## The Central Scrutinizer (15 Dec 2021)

I still don't think it was fair but Hey-Ho i'm over it now
It wasn't Verstappens fault that Masi was weak and though he won in dubious circumstances i congratulate him on being world champion.


----------



## dave r (16 Dec 2021)

They're going to investigate it.

https://www.crash.net/f1/news/994784/1/fia-launches-probe-contentious-safety-car-abu-dhabi-f1-finale


----------



## Beebo (16 Dec 2021)

dave r said:


> They're going to investigate it.
> 
> https://www.crash.net/f1/news/994784/1/fia-launches-probe-contentious-safety-car-abu-dhabi-f1-finale


I don’t think they are looking to investigate the actual result, just to have a debrief, learn lessons and report back to the teams.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (16 Dec 2021)

Beebo said:


> I don’t think they are looking to investigate the actual result, just to have a debrief, learn lessons and report back to the teams.


It's a pretty poor response tbh - seemingly it's our misunderstanding that's the issue


----------



## dave r (16 Dec 2021)

Beebo said:


> I don’t think they are looking to investigate the actual result, just to have a debrief, learn lessons and report back to the teams.



I can't see it affecting the result, but it might result in a clarifying of the rules and stop it happening again.


----------



## Illaveago (16 Dec 2021)

I wonder what they will come up with ? Is it just a smokescreen ?


----------



## dave r (16 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> I wonder what they will come up with ? Is it just a smokescreen ?



Good question.


----------



## Illaveago (16 Dec 2021)

What happened comes under their race manipulation brief surely ? The race could have ended as it was under the safety car as 75% of the laps had been covered . The intervention of Masi messed it up , first with one rule and then changing it to another and then even modifying that one . I think the results should have been postponed and the race should have been thoroughly investigated before announcing the winner rather than just dismissing appeals . The car's still had to pass scrutineering so that was still pending .
It is a right fiasco !


----------



## classic33 (16 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> What happened comes under their race manipulation brief surely ? The race could have ended as it was under the safety car as 75% of the laps had been covered . The intervention of Masi messed it up , first with one rule and then changing it to another and then even modifying that one . I think the results should have been postponed and the race should have been thoroughly investigated before announcing the winner rather than just dismissing appeals . The car's still had to pass scrutineering so that was still pending .
> It is a right fiasco !


Discount the last race entirely.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (16 Dec 2021)

The first step is to see whether Merc go through with the Appeal - they have until this evening. If not, then deals have been done behind closed doors - but that announcement looks preemptive, as opposed to part of and agreement to me.


----------



## figbat (16 Dec 2021)

That announcement is for the cameras, just like the race was. It sounds impressive and may well result in Masi taking the fall but it doesn’t change the result, and nothing will. I doubt it’ll come out with “yep, sorry, we messed it up, won’t happen again” more like “we have learned an important lesson and have clarified the situation with the teams and oooh look shiny new cars”.


----------



## matticus (16 Dec 2021)

classic33 said:


> Discount the last race entirely.


Seems fair.

And Max (World Champion by number-of-wins) probably won't complain.


----------



## figbat (16 Dec 2021)

If we discount that race then what about Spa?


----------



## classic33 (16 Dec 2021)

figbat said:


> If we discount that race then what about Spa?


Silverstone?


----------



## matticus (16 Dec 2021)

It's almost like there was more than one race where decisions went against one team or the other!


----------



## figbat (16 Dec 2021)

But Spa and Abu Dhabi were the only ones where the race was manipulated by the FIA to get a result.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (16 Dec 2021)

Toto commenting - sorry, Mrs W commenting:

https://twitter.com/susie_wolff/status/14714000425...


----------



## classic33 (16 Dec 2021)

figbat said:


> But Spa and Abu Dhabi were the only ones where the race was manipulated by the FIA to get a result.


Disqualifying Hamilton from qualifying, and then a five place penalty (that anyone who swapped an engine would receive), was also an "attempt to manipulate the race". Although there's no one person they can lay the blame on for that.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (16 Dec 2021)

Appeal has officially been dropped by Mercedes.


----------



## Illaveago (16 Dec 2021)

Ah! But we can still go on !


----------



## icowden (16 Dec 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Appeal has officially been dropped by Mercedes.





> Mercedes have decided not to pursue their appeal against the results of the title-deciding Abu Dhabi Grand Prix.
> 
> Their move follows a decision by governing body the FIA to conduct a "detailed analysis" of the end of the race and an admission it was "tarnishing" Formula 1's image.
> Mercedes said they "welcomed" the move and would "hold the FIA accountable".



Translation - if we continued we weren't expecting to get any more than this. We have the moral high ground.


----------



## derrick (16 Dec 2021)

matticus said:


> Seems fair.
> 
> And Max (World Champion by number-of-wins) probably won't complain.


Manipulate the result, that seems fair. Ffs.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (16 Dec 2021)

icowden said:


> Translation - if we continued we weren't expecting to get any more than this. We have the moral high ground.


Translation, FIA were desperate not to have their incompetence formally ratified. Horses have been traded, concessions have been made, everyone knows the truth of the matter, and Mercedes come out of it in a very positive light.


----------



## matticus (16 Dec 2021)

In 10 years time, when Max is talking about retirement - and maybe Horner/Wolff too - is anyone going to be talking about a Saftey Car period that wasn't ended according to the regs? (let alone what statements FIA etc made after the event)
I doubt it.

In fact, by July no-one will give two figs what the safety car procedure wording says.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (16 Dec 2021)

matticus said:


> In 10 years time, when Max is talking about retirement - and maybe Horner/Wolff too - is anyone going to be talking about a Saftey Car period that wasn't ended according to the regs?
> I doubt it.


We're still remembering Schumi's taking Damon out to 'win', plus him doing the same to JV and being disqualified from the whole Championship

At least I am!


----------



## matticus (16 Dec 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> We're still remembering Schumi's taking Damon out to 'win', plus him doing the same to JV and being disqualified from the whole Championship
> 
> At least I am!


 Me too!

But that's cos we all love to hate Schuey! actual on-track skull-duggery is a lot more memorable than court-room antics and press statements. IMO, anyway ...


----------



## Illaveago (16 Dec 2021)

If the shoe was on the other foot Christian Horner would still be ranting about it .
It looks like Mercedes didn't want any bad publicity and have so relented .
I would want a personal appology from the FIA for Lewis on a brass placque on the wall of their office in France .


----------



## The Central Scrutinizer (16 Dec 2021)

What susie wolff said:"Rules are rules; they can't be changed on a whim by one individual at the end of a race."
Hope we have seen the last of Michael Masi.


----------



## Illaveago (16 Dec 2021)

The Central Scrutinizer said:


> What susie wolff said:"Rules are rules; they can't be changed on a whim by one individual at the end of a race."
> Hope we have seen the last of Michael Masi.


I think he and the FIA are judging Strictly Come Dancing ! 
No doubt they will make one couple wear wellies just to add spice to the competition !


----------



## matticus (16 Dec 2021)

Sir Lewis will be in our Thoughts and Prayers this week, and indeed over the whole festive season:



> Mercedes’ team principal, Toto Wolff, says he can give “no assurances” that Lewis Hamilton will continue in formula one after Sunday’s controversial season finale, saying the British driver is still in “pain” and “will never get over” what happened.


----------



## FishFright (16 Dec 2021)

One thing to remember is that if Hamilton hadn't put Verstappen into the wall and hospital he would have lost before the last race.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (16 Dec 2021)

Mercedes are obviously not subject to any gag because their comms re the affair have been brutal today.


----------



## icowden (16 Dec 2021)

FishFright said:


> One thing to remember is that if Hamilton hadn't put Verstappen into the wall and hospital he would have lost before the last race.


Another thing to remember is that if Verstappen had been properly penalised for driving his opponent off the track, Hamilton would likely have won before the last race.

Another thing to remember is that if FIA rules for this season hadn't been specifically brought in to penalise Mercedes, that Hamilton would likely have won before the last race.

And a final thing to remember is that if the FIA Race Director had not specifically gifted the final win to Red Bull that Hamilton would have won at the end of the last race.


----------



## classic33 (16 Dec 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Mercedes are obviously not subject to any gag because their comms re the affair have been brutal today.


Ad at the top of the page.


----------



## FishFright (16 Dec 2021)

icowden said:


> Another thing to remember is that if Verstappen had been properly penalised for driving his opponent off the track, Hamilton would likely have won before the last race.
> 
> Another thing to remember is that if FIA rules for this season hadn't been specifically brought in to penalise Mercedes, that Hamilton would likely have won before the last race.
> 
> And a final thing to remember is that if the FIA Race Director had not specifically gifted the final win to Red Bull that Hamilton would have won at the end of the last race.



Go and watch those two incidents and then tell me how they are equivalent .

The FIA has brought in rules to slow down the leading teams for ever, getting offended now just because you like the driver is rather weak.

Masi has been an omnishambles as race director , you'll have no argument there from me.


----------



## Beebo (16 Dec 2021)

Mercedes didn’t turn up to the end of season party. 

Todt refused to be drawn on whether Hamilton and Wolff would be penalised for not attending the prize giving ceremony, as is required of them in the sporting regulations.


----------



## FishFright (16 Dec 2021)

Beebo said:


> Mercedes didn’t turn up to the end of season party.
> 
> Todt refused to be drawn on whether Hamilton and Wolff would be penalised for not attending the prize giving ceremony, as is required of them in the sporting regulations.



Now that is rather pathetic behaviour. Tantrum Man and Sulky Boy ......


----------



## classic33 (16 Dec 2021)

Beebo said:


> Mercedes didn’t turn up to the end of season party.
> 
> Todt refused to be drawn on whether Hamilton and Wolff would be penalised for not attending the prize giving ceremony, as is required of them in the sporting regulations.


Could end up costing them the constructors championship, as well as second in the drivers championship.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (16 Dec 2021)

As I just commented elsewhere, I don't think that the FIA has any appetite to throw petrol onto something that's already blazing.

There's also a Lewis solidarity truck doing laps of the venue, projecting images of him!


----------



## Bonefish Blues (16 Dec 2021)

Todt's tenure finishes tomorrow, incidentally


----------



## FishFright (16 Dec 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Todt's tenure finishes tomorrow, incidentally



Has the replacement been named yet ?


----------



## Illaveago (16 Dec 2021)

If Mercedes were to pull out F1 would be without half the grid .


----------



## FishFright (16 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> If Mercedes were to pull out F1 would be without half the grid .



I think Daimler AG would pull funding to the team well before that .


----------



## classic33 (16 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> If Mercedes were to pull out F1 would be without half the grid .


Not quite that easy walking away from a cast iron contract, without it costing more than the contract would have.

AMG want to remain in, with greater recognition of their part, via Daimler who own Mercedes.


----------



## Beebo (16 Dec 2021)

FishFright said:


> Now that is rather pathetic behaviour. Tantrum Man and Sulky Boy ......


I think Hamilton has handled the situation very well. I don’t see any evidence of a sulk. If rumours are to be believed he instigated the withdrawal of the protest. 
Wolfe is understandably pissed off. 
They sent a senior engineer to collect the trophy. So there was some team representatives there.


----------



## FishFright (16 Dec 2021)

Beebo said:


> I think Hamilton has handled the situation very well. I don’t see any evidence of a sulk. If rumours are to be believed he instigated the withdrawal of the protest.
> Wolfe is understandably pissed off.
> They sent a senior engineer to collect the trophy. So there was some team representatives there.



Boycotting the end of year gala that's mandatory looks a lot like an epic sulk from here and thats both of them.

An adult needs to win and lose with dignity to get my support.


----------



## Illaveago (16 Dec 2021)

classic33 said:


> Could end up costing them the constructors championship, as well as second in the drivers championship.


If they did that it would show just how corrupt the championship has become .


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (16 Dec 2021)

Regarding Verstappen's racing style, I read elsewhere that Senna used to do exactly the same. Martin Brundle described how Senna would throw his cars into corners and force the other driver to make a decision - back out or crash. After that, all Senna had to do was put a wheel inside at a corner and he was through. The problem came when Senna came up against Mansell who chose the crash option, repeatedly.

When Senna was breaking through and beating Prost, the British media backed Senna and all we heard about was the nasty tactics and mischief-making of the French driver who became the villain. Against Mansell, the British press did a volte face and switched to "Good old Nigel" against the foreigner. 

The narrative for this entire season has been about Lewis good guy, patron saint of little lambs and good causes "Just wanting to race safely" Sir Hamilton OBE Godblessyouguv against the big bad Max foreigner who stood in the way of our hero gaining godliness. I think this has been a quite deliberate campaign on Mercedes' part, putting doubt in the mind of the race director and trying to influence decisions. When Verstappen lunged inside at lap one, he was doing the same as Senna but Masa inexplicably allowed Lewis to keep the place despite cheating to get it. Perhaps the season-long cries of Verstappen the dangerous aggressive driver weighed on his mind. And maybe, the decision at the end was him levelling things up again. Not so outrageous - it's very common to see football referees do this in a game.


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (16 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> If Mercedes were to pull out F1 would be without half the grid .


VW and Porsche would love this. Open door.


----------



## FishFright (16 Dec 2021)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> Regarding Verstappen's racing style, I read elsewhere that Senna used to do exactly the same. Martin Brundle described how Senna would throw his cars into corners and force the other driver to make a decision - back out or crash. After that, all Senna had to do was put a wheel inside at a corner and he was through. The problem came when Senna came up against Mansell who chose the crash option, repeatedly.
> 
> When Senna was breaking through and beating Prost, the British media backed Senna and all we heard about was the nasty tactics and mischief-making of the French driver who became the villain. Against Mansell, the British press did a volte face and switched to "Good old Nigel" against the foreigner.
> 
> The narrative for this entire season has been about Lewis good guy, patron saint of little lambs and good causes "Just wanting to race safely" Sir Hamilton OBE Godblessyouguv against the big bad Max foreigner who stood in the way of our hero gaining godliness. I think this has been a quite deliberate campaign on Mercedes' part, putting doubt in the mind of the race director and trying to influence decisions. When Verstappen lunged inside at lap one, he was doing the same as Senna but Masa inexplicably allowed Lewis to keep the place despite cheating to get it. Perhaps the season-long cries of Verstappen the dangerous aggressive driver weighed on his mind. And maybe, the decision at the end was him levelling things up again. Not so outrageous - it's very common to see football referees do this in a game.



I watched during the Senna era and even though he was without doubt one of the very best he had a dark streak on the track that meant I could never really support him. Even though I was later a huge Schumacher fan so go figure.

Neither of them would be allowed to drive that way nowadays and that is definitely a good thing.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (16 Dec 2021)

FishFright said:


> Has the replacement been named yet ?


No not yet, election on 17th December


----------



## Illaveago (16 Dec 2021)

As I posted earlier the FIA are supposed to be looking in to race manipulation . The last race shows deliberate fixing ! Not only that but the the way in which gambling may have come into it . With odds of 8 to 13 for Lewis to win as opposed to 2 to 1 for Max to there is quite an incentive to make Max the winner !


----------



## classic33 (16 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> If they did that it would show just how corrupt the championship has become .


The same as not taking part in the podium procedure, nothing else. Or misusing the podium for your own purpose.


----------



## Illaveago (16 Dec 2021)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> VW and Porsche would love this. Open door.


They do not have the engines .


----------



## FishFright (16 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> As I posted earlier the FIA are supposed to be looking in to race manipulation . The last race shows deliberate fixing ! Not only that but the the way in which gambling may have come into it . With odds of 8 to 13 for Lewis to win as opposed to 2 to 1 for Max to there is quite an incentive to make Max the winner !



That might be as thorough as Cressida Dick's investigation of the Downing St. party


----------



## Bonefish Blues (16 Dec 2021)

FishFright said:


> That might be as thorough as Cressida Dick's investigation of the Downing St. party


We know that the police don't investigate things retrospectively!


----------



## classic33 (16 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> As I posted earlier the FIA are supposed to be looking in to race manipulation . The last race shows deliberate fixing ! Not only that but the the way in which gambling may have come into it . With odds of 8 to 13 for Lewis to win as opposed to 2 to 1 for Max to there is quite an incentive to make Max the winner !


William Hill aren't paying out until tomorrow, the earliest. Coral stopped paying out yesterday.

Who fixed the race deliberately, and how did they benefit?


----------



## Reynard (16 Dec 2021)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> Regarding Verstappen's racing style, I read elsewhere that Senna used to do exactly the same. Martin Brundle described how Senna would throw his cars into corners and force the other driver to make a decision - back out or crash. After that, all Senna had to do was put a wheel inside at a corner and he was through. The problem came when Senna came up against Mansell who chose the crash option, repeatedly.
> 
> When Senna was breaking through and beating Prost, the British media backed Senna and all we heard about was the nasty tactics and mischief-making of the French driver who became the villain. Against Mansell, the British press did a volte face and switched to "Good old Nigel" against the foreigner.



If you're talking about 1988, I'm not so sure. The media left Senna in droves after he stuffed Derek Warwick over the Lotus drive at the tail end of 1985.

At that time, Warwick was still far more popular than Mansell in the press, although that did change quite quickly after that, given Derek didn't have an F1 drive for 86 as a result of Senna's temper tantrum.

FWIW, Senna used the same tactics in junior formulae, not exactly endearing himself to a fair number of his fellow competitors. Usually when his actions left them with a big repair bill. You can't exactly expect a leopard to change his spots after all.

Prost was no angel, but he worked much more subtly - you only realised you'd had the carpet pulled from under you when you ended up on your arse on a bare floor...


----------



## classic33 (16 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> They do not have the engines .


Their arrival could be a few years ahead of schedule, were Mercedes to pull out.


----------



## Illaveago (16 Dec 2021)

classic33 said:


> Their arrival could be a few years ahead of schedule, were Mercedes to pull out.


That is for the future . If Mercedes were to suddenly pull out it would leave teams scrabbling round for engines. It also takes time for teams and engines to work together .


----------



## Rusty Nails (16 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> If Mercedes were to pull out F1 would be without half the grid .


Do you think they will do that. They won the constructors title and are strong enough to do it again. Hamilton is good but will not go on forever.


----------



## classic33 (16 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> That is for the future . If Mercedes were to suddenly pull out it would leave teams scrabbling round for engines. It also takes time for teams and engines to work together .


IF Mercedes were to pull out of contracts to supply engines, already paid for. Do you think that having paid for them, teams would just say "Oh well". Or would they go further in recovering their money?


----------



## Reynard (16 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> That is for the future . If Mercedes were to suddenly pull out it would leave teams scrabbling round for engines. It also takes time for teams and engines to work together .



It's not like back in the day where you could get a DFV or a Judd off-the-shelf...

Remember at the tail end of the turbo era when Honda took themselves off to McLaren after TAG-Porsche pulled the plug on their programme? Williams had put together a contract with Renault for 1989 when the new 3.5 normally aspirated engine regs came in, and Honda threw their toys out of the pram over it, leaving Williams without an engine for 1988.

That was until they negotiated with John Judd to supply the team with his 3-litre normally-aspirated V8 for that year as a stop-gap measure.

Not really an option these days, given how complicated the hybrids are. Maybe F1 could take a leaf out of the BTCC's book and build its own engine that teams may be free to use if they don't have a contract with Merc or Ferrari or whatever. The TOCA engines are often better than what the manufacturers put together...


----------



## Illaveago (16 Dec 2021)

classic33 said:


> IF Mercedes were to pull out of contracts to supply engines, already paid for. Do you think that having paid for them, teams would just say "Oh well". Or would they go further in recovering their money?


They threatened to do it before. 
Have they paid for them ? It seems as though teams switch to whatever best engine option is available .
Brawn now Mercedes were left without an engine when Honda pulled out . Mercedes didn't want to be linked with the McLaren Ferrarigate issue and so did a deal to supply engines . Honda are pulling out but Red Bull with continue manufacturing the engine .


----------



## classic33 (16 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> They threatened to do it before.
> Have they paid for them ? It seems as though teams switch to whatever best engine option is available .
> Brawn now Mercedes were left without an engine when Honda pulled out . Mercedes didn't want to be linked with the McLaren Ferrarigate issue and so did a deal to supply engines . Honda are pulling out but Red Bull with continue manufacturing the engine .


McLaren were still supplied with Mercedes engines after "Ferrarigate".
Albeit a customer engine after Mercedes bought control of Brawn F1, prior to renaming it Mercedes.


----------



## Illaveago (16 Dec 2021)

Bottas has been a real letdown for Mercedes this year in my opinion . He may have set pole laps at times but during the race he has been out for an afternoon drive . In previous years the likes of Lewis Hamilton , Sebastian Vettel ,Aryton Senna have had to battle against their team mates as well as their opposition . They have also at times had them as support in fighting against their rivals . This year Bottas hasn't been near enough to compete . Next year if Lewis continues he should have someone on equal terms and perhaps someone to help fight the opposition .


----------



## icowden (17 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> Next year if Lewis continues he should have someone on equal terms and perhaps someone to help fight the opposition .



He has a 2 year contract and will therefore compete. His team mate will be George Russell, who, based on previous form, might well give him a run for his money.


----------



## icowden (17 Dec 2021)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> The narrative for this entire season has been about Lewis good guy, patron saint of little lambs and good causes "Just wanting to race safely" ...
> When Verstappen lunged inside at lap one, he was doing the same as Senna but Masa inexplicably allowed Lewis to keep the place despite cheating to get it.



Just a couple of points of order. The narrative has been about just how dangerous a driver Max Verstappen is (as usual) . Secondly Lewis didn't cheat to get the place. He was forced off the track (again) and rejoined in front of Max as a result of the attendant shortcut. Enquiries were then made of the stewards and race director as to whether the place should be given back. His team advised that it did not need to be as the advantage had been given back to Red Bull.

On the one hand I am with you on thinking that Mercedes should have been ordered to give the place back but can also see that, yet again, Max went for an unsafe undertake forcing Lewis off the track which is supposed to be against the regulations. This situation wasn't helped by Masi apparently applying the rule arbitrarily and letting some drivers get away with it sometimes but not other times. This is one of the points that Mercedes want addressed. If you have rules, they need to be followed. Otherwise it looks like you are trying to fix the result.


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (17 Dec 2021)

Hamilton had 3 choices - collide, cut the corner or brake. He was no more forced off the track than drivers are forced to overtake cyclists dangerously.


----------



## matticus (17 Dec 2021)

icowden said:


> And a final thing to remember is


Oh lawdy, please make it so. But I've got 3 pages of this thread to catch-up with from overnight, so I'm not optimistic ...


----------



## Alex321 (17 Dec 2021)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> Hamilton had 3 choices - collide, cut the corner or brake. He was no more forced off the track than drivers are forced to overtake cyclists dangerously.


Braking that that point wasn't an option. He could have braked earlier, but there was no reason he should until Verstappen decided he was taking that space regardless of Hamilton being in it.


----------



## FishFright (17 Dec 2021)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> Hamilton had 3 choices - collide, cut the corner or brake. He was no more forced off the track than drivers are forced to overtake cyclists dangerously.



If there was a gravel trap there Hamilton would have braked. I don't put this on Hamilton but on the way the rules have been handled since tarmac run offs became the norm , added to this Masi's random rules generator make it worth a go .


----------



## icowden (17 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> As I posted earlier the FIA are supposed to be looking in to race manipulation . The last race shows deliberate fixing ! Not only that but the the way in which gambling may have come into it . With odds of 8 to 13 for Lewis to win as opposed to 2 to 1 for Max to there is quite an incentive to make Max the winner !



I just read through Toto Wolff's statement. I thought this bit was pretty telling:



> We cannot continue in a sport that is meant to be sport followed by entertainment and not the other way around.


----------



## matticus (17 Dec 2021)

icowden said:


> I just read through Toto Wolff's statement. I thought this bit was pretty telling:
> 
> 
> > We cannot continue in a sport that is meant to be sport followed by entertainment and not the other way around.


What a dick. Since when was F1 purely "sport"? He was happy enough taking millions off the sponsors, and swanning round flash oil-funded circuits in dodgy regimes until now.

plenty of people have been robbed by dodgy official's decisions (and/or dodgy driving), and many more by sheer bad luck - suck it up!


----------



## FishFright (17 Dec 2021)

matticus said:


> What a dick. Since when was F1 purely "sport"? He was happy enough taking millions off the sponsors, and swanning round flash oil-funded circuits in dodgy regimes until now.
> 
> plenty of people have been robbed by dodgy official's decisions (and/or dodgy driving), and many more by sheer bad luck - suck it up!



I can imagine how popular he isn't at Daimler A.G. at the moment.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (17 Dec 2021)

matticus said:


> What a dick. Since when was F1 purely "sport"? He was happy enough taking millions off the sponsors, and swanning round flash oil-funded circuits in dodgy regimes until now.
> 
> plenty of people have been robbed by dodgy official's decisions (and/or dodgy driving), and many more by sheer bad luck - suck it up!


Yep - his team has just had one of the most flagrant injustices inflicted on it and all he can do is moan. Time were when t'referee would shoot us if we gave away a foul - and we were grateful, it were an important lesson in life death. Don't know they're born.


----------



## Alex321 (17 Dec 2021)

matticus said:


> What a dick. Since when was F1 purely "sport"? He was happy enough taking millions off the sponsors, and swanning round flash oil-funded circuits in dodgy regimes until now.
> 
> plenty of people have been robbed by dodgy official's decisions (and/or dodgy driving), and many more by sheer bad luck - suck it up!


He never suggested it should be purely sport. He said it should be sport first, followed by entertainment, rather than entertainment first, with sport very much second.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (17 Dec 2021)

Alex321 said:


> He never suggested it should be purely sport. He said it should be sport first, followed by entertainment, rather than entertainment first, with sport very much second.


Otherwise it's Bake Off


----------



## matticus (17 Dec 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Otherwise it's Bake Off


Or worse ... Top Gear!


----------



## Reynard (17 Dec 2021)

In better news, Dan Cammish, this year's Porsche Cup champion, will be back in the BTCC next year. 

https://www.btcc.net/2021/12/15/dan...turn-for-2022-title-tilt-with-napa-racing-uk/


----------



## Bonefish Blues (17 Dec 2021)

matticus said:


> Or worse ... Top Gear!


No need for that sort of talk


----------



## gbb (17 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> Bottas has been a real letdown for Mercedes this year in my opinion . He may have set pole laps at times but during the race he has been out for an afternoon drive . In previous years the likes of Lewis Hamilton , Sebastian Vettel ,Aryton Senna have had to battle against their team mates as well as their opposition . They have also at times had them as support in fighting against their rivals . This year Bottas hasn't been near enough to compete . Next year if Lewis continues he should have someone on equal terms and perhaps someone to help fight the opposition .


Thats assuming its not Mercedes holding back the team mate , wouldn't be surprised ?
Generally, i agree through, its like he's not really been on song, not good enough for arguably the best car/team on the circuit.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (17 Dec 2021)

gbb said:


> Thats assuming its not Mercedes holding back the team mate , wouldn't be surprised ?
> Generally, i agree through, its like he's not really been on song, not good enough for arguably the best car/team on the circuit.


Depends on what you want a no 2 to do - they won the WCC, so he did his bit by outscoring Perez.


----------



## gbb (17 Dec 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Depends on what you want a no 2 to do - they won the WCC, so he did his bit by outscoring Perez.


True but he was quite bit and miss. Tbf, you'd expect more consistency from the no2 in the no1 team.


----------



## FishFright (17 Dec 2021)

gbb said:


> True but he was quite bit and miss. Tbf, you'd expect more consistency from the no2 in the no1 team.



Speaking of consistency we have an unlikely 'winner' on that front.







Also an interesting 12th place too .


----------



## Illaveago (18 Dec 2021)

What a right nest of vipers the FIA is ! 
Jean Todt before leaving said that there was no need to punish LH for not attending the gala . In steps the new president and immediately announces that LH could be punished for breaking rules !
Coming from the UAE where they practice the most up to date form of human rights we could possibly expect a fair hearing !


----------



## MasterDabber (18 Dec 2021)

Mohammed Ben Sulayem, a man with a lack of self awareness when he said "At the end of the day, rules are rules." 

You couldn't make it up.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (18 Dec 2021)

MasterDabber said:


> Mohammed Ben Sulayem, a man with a lack of self awareness when he said "At the end of the day, rules are rules."
> 
> You couldn't make it up.


Yes, I saw that quote and sucked my teeth. But if that's how the FIA goes forward, and consistently so, then few will complain!


----------



## Illaveago (18 Dec 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Yes, I saw that quote and sucked my teeth. But if that's how the FIA goes forward, and consistently so, then few will complain!


Or they might disappear !


----------



## Bonefish Blues (18 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> Or they might disappear !


I've got to hand it to you.


----------



## Reynard (18 Dec 2021)

Cubic money is what's got Bin Sulayem the cushy little gig. One of his deputies is Bernie's daughter, so the undertall little gargoyle still has his fingers in all the pies. He'll be the one pulling the strings - Bin Sulayem has no talent for politicking whatsoever.

The only remotely independent appointment is Robert Reid - Richard Burns' co-driver.


----------



## Cerdic (18 Dec 2021)

I'd watch F1 drivers baking cakes in competition with each other...


----------



## yello (18 Dec 2021)

Cerdic said:


> I'd watch F1 drivers baking cakes in competition with each other...


I reckon Verstappen would be a mess in the kitchen. Flour everywhere.


----------



## Illaveago (18 Dec 2021)

Reynard said:


> Cubic money is what's got Bin Sulayem the cushy little gig. One of his deputies is Bernie's daughter, so the undertall little gargoyle still has his fingers in all the pies. He'll be the one pulling the strings - Bin Sulayem has no talent for politicking whatsoever.
> 
> The only remotely independent appointment is Robert Reid - Richard Burns' co-driver.


I was thinking along similar lines .
Strange how someone accused of bribery could get off by paying for it to go away !


----------



## Reynard (18 Dec 2021)

Cerdic said:


> I'd watch F1 drivers baking cakes in competition with each other...



Oh man, I have this vision of Lando Norris baking cakes now...


----------



## classic33 (18 Dec 2021)

Reynard said:


> Oh man, I have this vision of Lando Norris baking cakes now...



View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fI2ndkDV2q8&feature=youtu.be


----------



## Cerdic (18 Dec 2021)

I bet Lando knows his way round an egg whisk...


----------



## Jenkins (18 Dec 2021)

yello said:


> I reckon Verstappen would be a mess in the kitchen. Flour everywhere.


And pushing Lewis' eggs off the edge of the work surface.


----------



## Cerdic (18 Dec 2021)

"So, Kimi, what kind of cake are you planning? Your only ingredients seem to be vodka and ice cream..."


----------



## Jenkins (18 Dec 2021)

Cerdic said:


> "So, Kimi, what kind of cake are you planning? Your only ingredients seem to be vodka and ice cream..."


You can almost hear him reply to that with the classic...
"Leave me alone, I know what I'm doing"


----------



## BrumJim (20 Dec 2021)

Reynard said:


> In better news, Dan Cammish, this year's Porsche Cup champion, will be back in the BTCC next year.
> 
> https://www.btcc.net/2021/12/15/dan...turn-for-2022-title-tilt-with-napa-racing-uk/


Presumably the one on the right in the photo?


----------



## Reynard (20 Dec 2021)

BrumJim said:


> Presumably the one on the right in the photo?



Indeed...


----------



## Reynard (21 Dec 2021)

And teaming up with Dan Cammish at NAPA racing is...

Ash Sutton.

Oh joy, my absolute favourite BTCC driver and the one I like the least by quite some margin. Oh dear... Can't deny Ash is up there with the best though, but talk about divided loyalties...


----------



## Cerdic (21 Dec 2021)

These NAPA people look serious. Sutton and Cammish is a very strong lineup!

My son follows NASCAR and says they are well known over there...


----------



## Reynard (21 Dec 2021)

The cars are actually run by Motorbase.

I think this has got to be the strongest driver line-up in the BTCC for a very long time.

Will be interesting, as Ash is a renowned RWD specialist, and the Focus is FWD. Cammish, we know, is lightning fast in a FWD car.

https://www.btcc.net/2021/12/21/rei...uiCcv0L58rwtNDsTn-cBEHtMqjX4mQQO-RGBP0Vl-K-Oc


----------



## Jenkins (21 Dec 2021)

Reynard said:


> And teaming up with Dan Cammish at NAPA racing is...
> 
> Ash Sutton.
> 
> Oh joy, my absolute favourite BTCC driver and the one I like the least by quite some margin. Oh dear... Can't deny Ash is up there with the best though, but talk about divided loyalties...


So i'd need to smuggle you in to Snetterton next year to get round Dan's restraining order, but have to frisk you for weapons first, just in case you met Ash


----------



## Cerdic (21 Dec 2021)

Reynard said:


> The cars are actually run by Motorbase.
> 
> I think this has got to be the strongest driver line-up in the BTCC for a very long time.
> 
> ...



Yes, this looks like Motorbase's big chance to get back to the sharp end on a regular basis!


----------



## Reynard (21 Dec 2021)

Jenkins said:


> So i'd need to smuggle you in to Snetterton next year to get round Dan's restraining order, but have to frisk you for weapons first, just in case you met Ash





In that case, I'll need to borrow Rosa Klebb's shoes...


----------



## Illaveago (24 Dec 2021)

I found a couple of bits on the web yesterday about the new rules for 2022 Grand Prixs. I can see why LH may be dissilusioned by the sport .
It seems like in an effort to allow teams further down the grid to compete they will be restricting wind tunnel testing by where they finished in the championship . The winning team has a certain percentage and increases the further down the grid . I think it is to be reviewed part way through the season. It seems as though they want to turn the sport into Formula Ford or F5000 from the 80's where cars went round in a huge bunch . 
The other thing I read was that all of these extra races especially ones close together are putting a lot of strain on the mechanics . 
It seems as though they are messing up the sport .


----------



## Rusty Nails (24 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> I found a couple of bits on the web yesterday about the new rules for 2022 Grand Prixs. I can see why LH may be dissilusioned by the sport .
> It seems like in an effort to allow teams further down the grid to compete they will be restricting wind tunnel testing by where they finished in the championship . The winning team has a certain percentage and increases the further down the grid . I think it is to be reviewed part way through the season. It seems as though they want to turn the sport into Formula Ford or F5000 from the 80's where cars went round in a huge bunch .
> The other thing I read was that all of these extra races especially ones close together are putting a lot of strain on the mechanics .
> It seems as though they are messing up the sport .


The "sport" has been messed up for a long time. It's now a business.


----------



## FishFright (24 Dec 2021)

Rusty Nails said:


> The "sport" has been messed up for a long time. It's now a business.



It has been a successful since Max Mosely and Ecclestone divided up the spoils . Before that it was still a business but a very badly run one.

Liberty Media are now turning it from a sporting business to an entertainment business along the lines of modern Nascar , considering how badly that has gone this is quite a surprise.


----------



## Rusty Nails (24 Dec 2021)

FishFright said:


> It has been a successful since Max Mosely and Ecclestone divided up the spoils . Before that it was still a business but a very badly run one.
> 
> Liberty Media are now turning it from a sporting business to an entertainment business along the lines of modern Nascar , considering how badly that has gone this is quite a surprise.


And the more successful the business, whether sporting or entertainment, becomes the less like a sport it is as it's paymasters need feeding.


----------



## Illaveago (25 Dec 2021)

It seems like it might turn into a pantomime with race official puppets being manipulated by an evil henchman from behind the scenes .


----------



## Bonefish Blues (25 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> I found a couple of bits on the web yesterday about the new rules for 2022 Grand Prixs. I can see why LH may be dissilusioned by the sport .
> It seems like in an effort to allow teams further down the grid to compete they will be restricting wind tunnel testing by where they finished in the championship . The winning team has a certain percentage and increases the further down the grid . I think it is to be reviewed part way through the season. It seems as though they want to turn the sport into Formula Ford or F5000 from the 80's where cars went round in a huge bunch .
> The other thing I read was that all of these extra races especially ones close together are putting a lot of strain on the mechanics .
> It seems as though they are messing up the sport .


A couple of thoughts:

See the NFL for an example of systemic 'levelling-up' which, by and large, works well. The big Franchises still tend to dominate, but the smaller ones also have their day too. In a sport which is so very uneven in terms of resources, I think the dice should be loaded for the less well-off, or grids will continue to shrink, which is in nobody's interest.

Wind tunnels are less and less important as computer modelling has reached a level where simulations are extremely accurate. It's how the FIA modelled and set the new rules, without ever creating a model.


----------



## Tom B (26 Dec 2021)

A bit late to this one....I've been ruminating on my love for F1 since the last race.



jowwy said:


> too many overuling rules, within the rules and giving one person the opportunity to manipulate the result of a race.....which is what masi did



Can anyone think of another sport where there is a race director who makes seemingly random, oft contentious decisions on the fly and meets with criticism offering the defense along with the governing body of "because we/i can and because we said so"



figbat said:


> Article 15.3: _"The Race Director shall have overriding authority in the following matters and the clerk of the course may give orders in respect of them only with his express agreement...
> ... e) The use of the safety car."_
> 
> However _"the use of the safety car"_ is managed in other articles. So he can say when the safety car goes out and comes in, but this triggers the respective articles according to the circumstances, which includes restart procedures and unlapping procedures. Those other articles do not have a clause stating "unless otherwise directed by the race director", so once triggered should be completed. On Sunday they weren't.



I think what we are seeing is that the rules are overlapping with no hierarchy. 



Beebo said:


> I think Hamilton has handled the situation very well. I don’t see any evidence of a sulk. If rumours are to be believed he instigated the withdrawal of the protest.
> Wolfe is understandably pissed off.
> They sent a senior engineer to collect the trophy. So there was some team representatives there.



One of Hamiltons flaws that I have seen throughout his career is that he can be a bit lacking in mental strength, toughness or resilience. Its been evident earlier in his career when he was with Shirtswinger, when he was getting his oats and all was going great he was on fire on track, when they had mither he was off form. If things in general don't go his way he can get a bit of a downer on. Though I think that Aussie lass, his "office" mum, Angela? Has helped with that.

He's probably feeling dispondant, down and fed up, I can't blame him. We've hall had bad days or times at work. Sometimes we get over it, sometimes we cut ties and move on. So I can appreciate where Lewis is coming from.

Toto is pissed off, he does pissed off really well.

I think he'd actually make a really good race director in a decade or so.





FishFright said:


> Boycotting the end of year gala that's mandatory looks a lot like an epic sulk from here and thats both of them.
> 
> An adult needs to win and lose with dignity to get my support.



I fully understand why they didn't want to go. It'd be like a kick in the nuts again. Not sure I'm comfortable with an awards ceremony with a mandatory attendance list though.

All they needed to do was claim covid.



Joey Shabadoo said:


> Regarding Verstappen's racing style, I read elsewhere that Senna used to do exactly the same. Martin Brundle described how Senna would throw his cars into corners and force the other driver to make a decision - back out or crash. After that, all Senna had to do was put a wheel inside at a corner and he was through. The problem came when Senna came up against Mansell who chose the crash option, repeatedly.
> 
> When Senna was breaking through and beating Prost, the British media backed Senna and all we heard about was the nasty tactics and mischief-making of the French driver who became the villain. Against Mansell, the British press did a volte face and switched to "Good old Nigel" against the foreigner.
> 
> The narrative for this entire season has been about Lewis good guy, patron saint of little lambs and good causes "Just wanting to race safely" Sir Hamilton OBE Godblessyouguv against the big bad Max foreigner who stood in the way of our hero gaining godliness. I think this has been a quite deliberate campaign on Mercedes' part, putting doubt in the mind of the race director and trying to influence decisions. When Verstappen lunged inside at lap one, he was doing the same as Senna but Masa inexplicably allowed Lewis to keep the place despite cheating to get it. Perhaps the season-long cries of Verstappen the dangerous aggressive driver weighed on his mind. And maybe, the decision at the end was him levelling things up again. Not so outrageous - it's very common to see football referees do this in a game.



As the season has worn on, certainly post Imola I think Lewis has become much more wary and risk averse towards Max. That might be due to his championship position meaning some points are better than no points. I hope it's due to this because if it's not it means Max's dangerous let me by or crash approach has won out and that's a dangerous precedent.



Joey Shabadoo said:


> VW and Porsche would love this. Open door.
> 
> Buying Mercs IP and what was Ilmor would be the only option here.
> 
> But I don't really see Merc going yet, another season at least to see how the land lies.





MasterDabber said:


> Mohammed Ben Sulayem, a man with a lack of self awareness when he said "At the end of the day, rules are rules."
> 
> You couldn't make it up.



Raised my eyebrows too. Wonder what Mr Masi's annual appraisal with the boss will have in it. "Please access and complete the FIA Rules are Rules e-learning package before 28/02/2022?"

In terms of penalising Hamilton and Merc. I don't see Merc being penalised they sent someone, I can see Hamilton getting some sort of financial penalty or other nonsense. Simply because the FIA seem to like the approach of when they have egg on the their faces applying more egg to hide the face and own embarrassment.



Reynard said:


> Oh man, I have this vision of Lando Norris baking cakes now...



Funnily enough Lando was the first I thought of when this was suggested.

Obviously Max would make something really dangerous like Raw Pork Pie with Hot Red Bull Custard?


----------



## FishFright (8 Jan 2022)

Apparently Bernie was pretty cool in younger days ....


----------



## classic33 (9 Jan 2022)

Started almost as soon as the last race was over. 
Schumacher didn't want the seven times championship being broken, so forced Latifi off the track earlier in the lap. The dirty tyres gained in driving off the track and then the "dirty line" are what led to the crash itself.

Going back over the season, if there was a Haas car in front off Hamilton, slowing him down/impeding his progress, it was Schumacher's. He was always slower to move out of the way.


----------



## Bazzer (18 Jan 2022)

@Reynard have you seen the YouTube channel JayEmm on Cars and the interview with Steve Nichols of McLaren?


----------



## Reynard (18 Jan 2022)

Bazzer said:


> @Reynard have you seen the YouTube channel JayEmm on Cars and the interview with Steve Nichols of McLaren?



I have.  You're probably about the fifth of sixth person to flag that one up for me...


----------



## Bazzer (18 Jan 2022)

Reynard said:


> I have.  You're probably about the fifth of sixth person to flag that one up for me...


Ahh, sorry. 
Still, better to have been told a few times of such an informative video, than it go by without a word. 🙂


----------



## Reynard (18 Jan 2022)

Bazzer said:


> Ahh, sorry.
> Still, better to have been told a few times of such an informative video, than it go by without a word. 🙂



No worries 

I take it as a compliment to my undoubted geekishness.


----------



## figbat (23 Jan 2022)

Formula 1 can’t even make sustainability and geopolitical statement bans without nonsensical exceptions.
Formula 1 bans military air displays at Grands Prix​Military flypasts banned on sustainability and geopolitical grounds… except the Red Arrows because, well, k’now, it’s the Red Arrows and we prefer them to the other Air Force display teams. Oh, and airliners can still flyby because, well, sponsors and all that.

It’s OK for the world-famous *Royal Air Force *Red Arrows, complete with military markings and dumping unburnt fuel over the crowd, to continue but other display teams, equally beloved of their home nations….? Nope. Favouring the British contender this year as consolation for the knock-back last year…?

Will the heavy Aramco sponsorship seen at previous races be banned? Oilco sponsorship on cars (per tobacco and alcohol before)? Will the heavy Russian political presence at the Sochi Grand Prix be curtailed? And those races at countries with questionable human rights?


----------



## Alex321 (23 Jan 2022)

figbat said:


> Formula 1 can’t even make sustainability and geopolitical statement bans without nonsensical exceptions.
> Formula 1 bans military air displays at Grands Prix​Military flypasts banned on sustainability and geopolitical grounds… except the Red Arrows because, well, k’now, it’s the Red Arrows and we prefer them to the other Air Force display teams. Oh, and airliners can still flyby because, well, sponsors and all that.
> 
> It’s OK for the world-famous *Royal Air Force *Red Arrows, complete with military markings and dumping unburnt fuel over the crowd, to continue but other display teams, equally beloved of their home nations….? Nope. Favouring the British contender this year as consolation for the knock-back last year…?
> ...


I don't know for sure, but maybe the Red Arrows are continuing for nowbecause there was already a contract in place?


----------



## figbat (23 Jan 2022)

Alex321 said:


> I don't know for sure, but maybe the Red Arrows are continuing for nowbecause there was already a contract in place?


And the other display teams didn’t have one?

Plus the wishy-washy reason given for the RA is that they are not overtly seen as military. The RAF-marked, military BAe Hawk aircraft piloted by the cream of the RAF pilots is not seen as military because this is a good way to dodge our own ruling. Has Masi been sidelined to the PR team?


----------



## Reynard (27 Jan 2022)

Just to give you all a heads-up, the first E-Prix of the season is tomorrow teatime.

Coverage of Formula E has moved from the BBC to the Channel 4 Youtube channel. At least the commentary team hasn't changed, but ffs! Why hide it on some obscure internet platform if you're trying to promote the series? At least it's still FTA.


----------



## Reynard (27 Jan 2022)

Oh yes, and my Christmas pressie to myself arrived last week... 







They don't fit me (much too big!) but they fit nicely into my collection of memorabilia relating to the Warwick brothers.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (27 Jan 2022)

Here's a fan's view of recent events. Insightful summary.


View: https://youtu.be/zRmlEmP7J_w


----------



## Tom B (27 Jan 2022)

Reynard said:


> Just to give you all a heads-up, the first E-Prix of the season is tomorrow teatime.
> 
> Coverage of Formula E has moved from the BBC to the Channel 4 Youtube channel. At least the commentary team hasn't changed, but ffs! Why hide it on some obscure internet platform if you're trying to promote the series? At least it's still FTA.



AHH I had been looking for it.

How the hell do I find it? Can I watch it anytime like YouTube regular vids or just live?


----------



## FishFright (27 Jan 2022)

Reynard said:


> Just to give you all a heads-up, the first E-Prix of the season is tomorrow teatime.
> 
> Coverage of Formula E has moved from the BBC to the Channel 4 Youtube channel. At least the commentary team hasn't changed, but ffs! Why hide it on some obscure internet platform if you're trying to promote the series? At least it's still FTA.



In my opinion the whole FE is a opportunity squandered. It started too soon with the silly car swap thing and went for spectacle , crashes and increasingly restrictive tech rules. The last one in a sector that is all about pushing the tech was plain dumb. Added to all that the loss of manufacturers really is the death knell for the series.

I enjoyed watching it for a couple of years and it saddens me it's going this way .


----------



## Reynard (27 Jan 2022)

Tom B said:


> AHH I had been looking for it.
> 
> How the hell do I find it? Can I watch it anytime like YouTube regular vids or just live?



I eventually found it by going through the official Formula E website... If you click on "watch" it will take you to the page directly.


----------



## Reynard (27 Jan 2022)

FishFright said:


> In my opinion the whole FE is a opportunity squandered. It started too soon with the silly car swap thing and went for spectacle , crashes and increasingly restrictive tech rules. The last one in a sector that is all about pushing the tech was plain dumb. Added to all that the loss of manufacturers really is the death knell for the series.
> 
> I enjoyed watching it for a couple of years and it saddens me it's going this way .



Maserati is joining next year.

Toys were thrown out of the pram last year because the teams couldn't reach a consensus over where the Gen 3 cars were going to go from a tech perspective.

Despite all of that, they're only down by two cars from last year - and that's the Audi Abt Schaefler squad. Their lead driver replaced Norman Nato at Venturi.


----------



## Tom B (27 Jan 2022)

FishFright said:


> In my opinion the whole FE is a opportunity squandered. It started too soon with the silly car swap thing and went for spectacle , crashes and increasingly restrictive tech rules. The last one in a sector that is all about pushing the tech was plain dumb. Added to all that the loss of manufacturers really is the death knell for the series.
> 
> I enjoyed watching it for a couple of years and it saddens me it's going this way .



I have to say I wasn't a fan of the car swap. But that's gone.

It's a young series in young tech market. Thi GS are going to change and develop. There will be some home goals and disasters like the race where they all ran out of juice. But is that any worse than the disasters at the pinnacle of the sport last year?

I was more put off with the crop of washed up ex f1 drivers.

Quite looking forward to it, probably to replace my f1 consumption.



Reynard said:


> I eventually found it by going through the official Formula E website... If you click on "watch" it will take you to the page directly.



I'll have a look when swmbo is in bed.


----------



## Reynard (12 Feb 2022)

A heads-up for all you Formula E fans...

Mexico City E-prix double header today and tomorrow.

Today's qualifying about 5-ish, the race starts 10pm UK time - both sessions on the Channel 4 youtube channel.


----------



## Sterlo (17 Feb 2022)

I see Michael Masi has been replaced as F1 race director. Has Christian Horner put his hat in the ring?


----------



## dave r (17 Feb 2022)

Sterlo said:


> I see Michael Masi has been replaced as F1 race director. Has Christian Horner put his hat in the ring?



They're bringing in people with experience from outside F1.

https://www.crash.net/f1/news/996586/1/masi-replaced-race-director-amid-fia-reform-f1-refereeing


----------



## Reynard (17 Feb 2022)

Well, they had to have their sacrificial lamb, I guess.

As long as they don't make curry...


----------



## Jody (17 Feb 2022)

No grounds for a Merc appeal but they sacked off the race director 

Didn't see that coming


----------



## Beebo (17 Feb 2022)

So it’s basically an admission that mistakes were made, without actually doing anything about it. 
It does somewhat tarnish Verstappen’s win.


----------



## derrick (17 Feb 2022)

Beebo said:


> So it’s basically an admission that mistakes were made, without actually doing anything about it.
> It does somewhat tarnish Verstappen’s win.


Verstappen's win was always tarnished.


----------



## matticus (18 Feb 2022)

derrick said:


> Verstappen's win was always tarnished.


Is there an asterisk in the results, or similar?


----------



## Jody (18 Feb 2022)

The Merc has launched and looks to have some very interesting concepts. Not long till first shake down and the season start, so we'll soon find out the new pecking order.


----------



## classic33 (18 Feb 2022)

Jody said:


> The Merc has launched and looks to have some very interesting concepts. Not long till first shake down and the season start, so we'll soon find out the new pecking order.
> 
> View attachment 631632


Weren't those wheel discs banned for safety reasons, after one or two parted company with the cars they were part of?


----------



## Jenkins (18 Feb 2022)

classic33 said:


> Weren't those wheel discs banned for safety reasons, after one or two parted company with the cars they were part of?


I think they were banned due to being used as an aerodynamic device - funelling air through the wheels and into the brake duct area where the ducts were also more of an aeordynamic design rather than an air duct.


----------



## Reynard (18 Feb 2022)

I've just been touching up some old scans of F3000 photos from 1991, and they were using wheel covers back then as well. So it's not exactly a new idea...

And I'm sure they've been using them in Indycar (or whatever it's called these days - I don't follow US racing much) for donkeys.


----------



## classic33 (18 Feb 2022)

Reynard said:


> I've just been touching up some old scans of F3000 photos from 1991, and they were using wheel covers back then as well. So it's not exactly a new idea...
> 
> And I'm sure they've been using them in Indycar (or whatever it's called these days - I don't follow US racing much) for donkeys.


Ferrari used them the previous year, for the first time in F1.


----------



## Jenkins (18 Feb 2022)

Here you go - F1 wheel rim covers - why they were banned (Autosport link)


----------



## Illaveago (19 Feb 2022)

Doesn't it seem like they are going round and round in circles ?
They say that they want to reduce costs to enable more teams to enter . So what do they do ? Let's make huge changes to the design ! It doesn't give tems with less money to spend enough time to figure out how to improve their car before a new set of rules comes in and so they have to design a whole new car .
I thought ground effect cars were banned after several accidents happened when the cars took off .
I think the lack of overtaking could be down to the design of the circuits being too twisty and too many becoming like a condensed Monaco.


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (19 Feb 2022)

Illaveago said:


> Doesn't it seem like they are going round and round in circles ?


Ummm... isn't that literally a description of the sport?


----------



## Jody (19 Feb 2022)

Illaveago said:


> Doesn't it seem like they are going round and round in circles ?
> They say that they want to reduce costs to enable more teams to enter . So what do they do ? Let's make huge changes to the design ! It doesn't give tems with less money to spend enough time to figure out how to improve their car before a new set of rules comes in and so they have to design a whole new car .
> I thought ground effect cars were banned after several accidents happened when the cars took off .
> I think the lack of overtaking could be down to the design of the circuits being too twisty and too many becoming like a condensed Monaco.



Wind tunnel and CFD rules will enable teams further down the field to catch up. The higher you finish, the less time you are given to develope. 

There is also a budget cap to stop the top teams running away with development.

Ground effects should help with racing as they are going to be able to follow the lead car closer and not overheat their tyres due to lost aero. It was banned before as teams were taking it to the extreme with side skirts and running them virtually on the tarmac. 

I'm quietly optimistic that this year's rules will work unless one team finds a loop hole like the double diffuser.


----------



## Reynard (19 Feb 2022)

Illaveago said:


> I thought ground effect cars were banned after several accidents happened when the cars took off .
> I think the lack of overtaking could be down to the design of the circuits being too twisty and too many becoming like a condensed Monaco.



Umm, that was nearly 40 years ago... The understanding of the effect is much better, plus the current design doesn't have the side skirts, which were part of the issue with the cars taking off once the venturi underneath had been disrupted.

And I think you'll find that every era of F1 since the late 1960s has complained about a lack of overtaking. Prior to then, cars relied purely on mechanical grip. You can blame Colin Chapman for that, because now it's swung almost entirely to aero grip, with the inevitable consequences it brings.


----------



## Cerdic (19 Feb 2022)

Beebo said:


> So it’s basically an admission that mistakes were made, without actually doing anything about it.
> It does somewhat tarnish Verstappen’s win.



I think your first sentence is absolutely correct. PR facesaving and all that.

I don’t agree that Verstappen’s win is tarnished though. It maybe a bit of a cliche, but a championship is won over a season, not a lap.

Hamilton and Verstappen had an intense fight over the season. The two of them were head and shoulders clear of the rest of the field and either would have been a deserving champion…


----------



## Bonefish Blues (19 Feb 2022)

Cerdic said:


> I think your first sentence is absolutely correct. PR facesaving and all that.
> 
> I don’t agree that Verstappen’s win is tarnished though. It maybe a bit of a cliche, but a championship is won over a season, *not a lap.*
> 
> Hamilton and Verstappen had an intense fight over the season. The two of them were head and shoulders clear of the rest of the field and either would have been a deserving champion…


But it manifestly was, and it's now a matter of wide acceptance that was the case - so much so that someone lost a job, and changes in administration are being made.

Whichever had come out of that last race ahead deserved the Title, but at least ensure it is a fair fight.


----------



## Cerdic (19 Feb 2022)

Yes but...if one of the previous races had had a slightly different result, that final lap would not have altered the outcome. This is why Verstappen’s win is not tarnished.

What is being debated is the application of rules and procedures on the last couple of laps of the final race. Yes they were incorrectly applied, and yes the result of the final race was affected.

But the championship was still won and lost over the course of the season. If Hamilton, for example, had picked up an extra couple of points back in, say, June, the whole “last lap, safety car” shenanigans would have been irrelevant…


----------



## matticus (19 Feb 2022)

Cerdic said:


> Yes but...if one of the previous races had had a slightly different result, that final lap would not have altered the outcome


Good try Cedric: but unfortunately no TRU sports fan believes this.
See also: penalty shootout misses in football.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (19 Feb 2022)

Cerdic said:


> Yes but...if one of the previous races had had a slightly different result, that final lap would not have altered the outcome. This is why Verstappen’s win is not tarnished.
> 
> What is being debated is the application of rules and procedures on the last couple of laps of the final race. Yes they were incorrectly applied, and yes the result of the final race was affected.
> 
> But the championship was still won and lost over the course of the season. If Hamilton, for example, had picked up an extra couple of points back in, say, June, the whole “last lap, safety car” shenanigans would have been irrelevant…


Well yes, if Spa hadn't been declared a race, and so on - but that wasn't the case, was it - it was all on the final race of the season. First to the line wins.

Which race, however, wasn't run according to the rules, to the manifest benefit of the competitor who was soundly beaten in that race - until he became the winner.


----------



## FishFright (19 Feb 2022)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Well yes, if Spa hadn't been declared a race, and so on - but that wasn't the case, was it - it was all on the final race of the season. First to the line wins.
> 
> Which race, however, wasn't run according to the rules, to the manifest benefit of the competitor who was soundly beaten in that race - until he became the winner.



If you ignore all the other times throughout the season where the races were not run according to the rules this is true.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (19 Feb 2022)

FishFright said:


> If you ignore all the other times throughout the season where the races were not run according to the rules this is true.


The officiating in general was hugely inconsistent through the season, I agree - I think we've had this point of violent agreement previously, but as our colleague said, it was all on this final race - and it was cocked up, royally so (I don't believe it was a conspiracy tho', unlike some) and the upcocking was done in front of hundreds of millions of people.


----------



## Alex321 (20 Feb 2022)

Cerdic said:


> Yes but...if one of the previous races had had a slightly different result, that final lap would not have altered the outcome. This is why Verstappen’s win is not tarnished.
> 
> What is being debated is the application of rules and procedures on the last couple of laps of the final race. Yes they were incorrectly applied, and yes the result of the final race was affected.
> 
> But the championship was still won and lost over the course of the season. If Hamilton, for example, had picked up an extra couple of points back in, say, June, the whole “last lap, safety car” shenanigans would have been irrelevant…


Sorry, but you can't say "it wasn't tarnished because if things had been different it wouldn't have mattered".

Things weren't different. It doesn't matter what might have happened if they had been.

The simple fact is that it was so close over the season that whoever beat the other in the final race won the championship, and then that final race was manipulated.


----------



## classic33 (20 Feb 2022)

Goes to show that there may be something in the Schumacher caused the safety car on purpose theory. 

If he'd forced Latifi of the track at turn 9, Latifi would have clean tyres. There'd have been no crash, no safety car and Perez would still have been out on track.
Or if Latifi had been unable to restart at turn 9, there'd have been a VSC, and no overtaking.

Schumacher's record wasn't beaten.


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (20 Feb 2022)

In my mind Max's title will always be tarnished - but not due to his fault

I feel that he is a great talent and was in the position he was in due to normal F1 stuff - including racing

It seems a shame that someone with his talent has a question mark against his first title - I hope he wins more - but only after Lewis retires
and Lando
and George


----------



## Alex321 (20 Feb 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> In my mind Max's title will always be tarnished - but not due to his fault


Absolutely. I don't blame Max for it in the slightest.

He wasn't the one manipulating things, he just completely reasonably took advantage of what was handed to him. I would not have expected any driver to do any differently at that point.



ebikeerwidnes said:


> I feel that he is a great talent and was in the position he was in due to normal F1 stuff - including racing
> 
> It seems a shame that someone with his talent has a question mark against his first title - I hope he wins more - but only after Lewis retires
> and Lando
> and George


Agreed, he certainly has the talent. Maybe a little over aggressive at times, but you don't generally get to be world champion in any sport by being Mr Nice guy.


----------



## icowden (20 Feb 2022)

Alex321 said:


> He wasn't the one manipulating things, he just completely reasonably took advantage of what was handed to him. I would not have expected any driver to do any differently at that point.



And I think that both Mercedes and Hamilton have also very clearly stated that. They don't begrudge Red Bull or Max the victory in those circumstances as any team would take the opportunity to win if it were handed to them. What they wanted was a very clear reassessment of the rules and the understanding that they will be applied fairly for the next season.


----------



## classic33 (20 Feb 2022)

icowden said:


> And I think that both Mercedes and Hamilton have also very clearly stated that. They don't begrudge Red Bull or Max the victory in those circumstances as any team would take the opportunity to win if it were handed to them. What they wanted was a very clear reassessment of the rules and the understanding that they will be applied fairly for the next season.


Mercedes also wanted, and got, the 2021 F1 technical director removed* from his position for dropping their appeal. Gap on rear wing too small, no longer a problem.

How Mercedes, Wolff, can manage to lay the blame on Masi for the Australian race, in 2020 being cancelled I'm not certain.

*"the technical removed" corrected to "2021 F1 technical director removed".


----------



## icowden (20 Feb 2022)

classic33 said:


> Mercedes also wanted, and got, the F1 technical removed from his position for dropping their appeal.



But F1.com is still coming out with crap like this:

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/...gain-f1-supremacy.7mgcpaq9yqzeSth5jco7iQ.html

Apparently, even after winning the constructors championship they somehow need to "regain" their supremacy. I thought that you had supremacy until *someone else took it away by becoming supreme. *Not in F1 world!


----------



## FishFright (20 Feb 2022)

icowden said:


> But F1.com is still coming out with crap like this:
> 
> https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/...gain-f1-supremacy.7mgcpaq9yqzeSth5jco7iQ.html
> 
> Apparently, even after winning the constructors championship they somehow need to "regain" their supremacy. I thought that you had supremacy until *someone else took it away by becoming supreme. *Not in F1 world!



A lot of the F1 media has been full of Mercedes flexing in front of a mirror and Hamilton being tougher than ever.

I expect a fair amount posturing pre season but it's getting silly now.


----------



## matticus (20 Feb 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Things weren't different. It doesn't matter what might have happened if they had been.
> 
> The simple fact is that it was so close over the season that ...


... the washed-out, tedious, non-event of Spa turned out to be the key moment of the season.

(In hindsight. Obvs.)

HTH


----------



## Bonefish Blues (20 Feb 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Absolutely. I don't blame Max for it in the slightest.
> 
> He wasn't the one manipulating things, he just completely reasonably took advantage of what was handed to him. I would not have expected any driver to do any differently at that point.
> 
> ...


In the way that Genghis Khan was a bit of a rascal on the odd occasion and did a bit of murder


----------



## Reynard (25 Feb 2022)

Well, the Russian GP has gone down the pan. No surprise there.

Haas ran in plain white livery today in pre-season testing. Gunther Steiner was quoted as saying that the position of Nikita Mazepin in the team is under review.

If Mazepin gets the grand order of the boot, F1 will lose the least talented driver ever to grace the series.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (25 Feb 2022)

Reynard said:


> Well, the Russian GP has gone down the pan. No surprise there.
> 
> Haas ran in plain white livery today in pre-season testing. Gunther Steiner was quoted as saying that the position of Nikita Mazepin in the team is under review.
> 
> If Mazepin gets the grand order of the boot, F1 will lose the least talented driver ever to grace the series.


Oh I think that'd be a right old race to the bottom!


----------



## Cerdic (25 Feb 2022)

Reynard said:


> Well, the Russian GP has gone down the pan. No surprise there.
> 
> Haas ran in plain white livery today in pre-season testing. Gunther Steiner was quoted as saying that the position of Nikita Mazepin in the team is under review.
> 
> If Mazepin gets the grand order of the boot, F1 will lose the least talented driver ever to grace the series.



Least talented ‘ever’? Ahem…Taki Inoue…?


----------



## icowden (25 Feb 2022)

Reynard said:


> If Mazepin gets the grand order of the boot, F1 will lose the least talented driver ever to grace the series.


It'll be his dad's money that Gunther misses most...


----------



## Reynard (25 Feb 2022)

Cerdic said:


> Least talented ‘ever’? Ahem…Taki Inoue…?



Almost... Although the klutz did get skittled by a rescue vehicle at the Hungarian GP back in the day...


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (26 Feb 2022)

icowden said:


> It'll be his dad's money that Gunther misses most...


Hmmm - Dad has lots of money

wonder if that should be 'used to have lots of money'
or 'still has lots of money but can;t get to it'

in which case - his place might be at risk for more than one reason


----------



## Bonefish Blues (26 Feb 2022)

Dad's money will be all over the place. I was listening to a radio programme yesterday featuring a guy who specialises in London Oligarch Tours, which are a bit like the Hollywood Stars tours you get - just touring street after street of Russian-owned properties, all owned via untraceable anonymous companies.


----------



## Beebo (28 Feb 2022)

Any early observations from the 3 days of testing?
Hopefully Ferrari and McLaren are back to near their best. 
The porpoising looked a little worrying on the high speed straights and seemed to catch everyone out.


----------



## FishFright (28 Feb 2022)

Beebo said:


> Any early observations from the 3 days of testing?
> Hopefully Ferrari and McLaren are back to near their best.
> The porpoising looked a little worrying on the high speed straights and seemed to catch everyone out.



Porpoising was a problem with the earlier period of ground effects too and won't take long to sort out. 
I believe its due to the floor flexing at the rear of the floor, Mclaren's strut solution points this way to me even though the strut won't be race legal.

The shakedown times are pretty much unreadable due to having no clue to the programmes the teams were running. Also the glory runs on the C5 tyres can be excluded. 

I think the Bahrain tests will show a lot better picture where the teams stand. 

I do wonder if any of the major teams get it well wrong in race conditions because the cap could effectively wipe out their season.


----------



## dave r (28 Feb 2022)

We'll only know who's where when qualifying and racing begins in ernest, these preseason tests are useful to the teams but don't tell us a lot.


----------



## Reynard (28 Feb 2022)

FishFright said:


> Porpoising was a problem with the earlier period of ground effects too and won't take long to sort out.
> I believe its due to the floor flexing at the rear of the floor, Mclaren's strut solution points this way to me even though the strut won't be race legal.



Not really - it's basically the airflow stalling, which disrupts the laminar flow underneath the car. Given a racing car is effectively an upside down aircraft, this explanation might be useful:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stall_(fluid_dynamics)

I only did this to an undergrad level I'm afraid, and it was one heck of a long time ago. I preferred to break things in a lab.


----------



## FishFright (28 Feb 2022)

Reynard said:


> Not really - it's basically the airflow stalling, which disrupts the laminar flow underneath the car. Given a racing car is effectively an upside down aircraft, this explanation might be useful:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stall_(fluid_dynamics)
> 
> I only did this to an undergrad level I'm afraid, and it was one heck of a long time ago. I preferred to break things in a lab.



The teams are saying that the floor is flexing too far downwards towards its rear edge ( in front of the rear wheels) which is causing the airflow to stall underneath the car, the car lifts allowing the flow to reattach and then the downforce pushes it back down too far causing another stall - rinse and repeat.

A similar thing happens when the rear diffusers are ran too low . The FIA raised the diffuser stakes a couple of years to stop the teams using it to lower the drag on the straights. 
Interestingly the game Assetto Corsa models this a very basic way, a simple loss of rear downforce if hit box of the diffuser touches the track, Stefano the AC code guru explained it on a youtube stream because people were calling it a bug.


----------



## dave r (28 Feb 2022)

FishFright said:


> The teams are saying that the floor is flexing too far downwards towards its rear edge ( in front of the rear wheels) which is causing the airflow to stall underneath the car, the car lifts allowing the flow to reattach and then the downforce pushes it back down too far causing another stall - rinse and repeat.
> 
> A similar thing happens when the rear diffusers are ran too low . The FIA raised the diffuser stakes a couple of years to stop the teams using it to lower the drag on the straights.
> Interestingly the game Assetto Corsa models this a very basic way, a simple loss of rear downforce if hit box of the diffuser touches the track, Stefano the AC code guru explained it on a youtube stream because people were calling it a bug.



The car is squatting on its suspension as the level of downforce rises and that is changing the angle of attack causing a stall, once its stalled the car rises changing the angle of attack and creating downforce again till it stalls again.


----------



## Reynard (28 Feb 2022)

It's a phenomenon that doesn't really happen with the old style flat-bottomed cars - that's why the flat bottoms were introduced for 1983 and have existed in various iterations since.

Like with an aircraft wing, the underbody of ground effect cars are curved and sculpted in such a way to accelerate the airflow underneath, and thus sucking the car to the track surface by lowering the pressure under the floor.

Back in the day, the stalling issue was overcome by active and adjustable suspension.


----------



## Reynard (2 Mar 2022)

Well, the FIA is busy accumulating splinters in its collective arses.

Motorsport UK, meanwhile, have banned all holders of Russian competition licenses from any UK-based event.


----------



## Reynard (2 Mar 2022)

Here is the relevant article: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/60586914

A motorsport historian friend of mine says the FIA was equally slow and indecisive when it came to South Africa in the early 1980s, so it's nothing new. In this case, it's more likely that money talks and everything else walks...


----------



## Beebo (3 Mar 2022)

Reynard said:


> Here is the relevant article: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/60586914
> 
> A motorsport historian friend of mine says the FIA was equally slow and indecisive when it came to South Africa in the early 1980s, so it's nothing new. In this case, it's more likely that money talks and everything else walks...


I agree. But how would Haas cope without Russian backing?


----------



## matticus (3 Mar 2022)

"slow and indecisive"?? - it's a pretty big decision to make in a week!


----------



## Phaeton (3 Mar 2022)

Beebo said:


> I agree. But how would Haas cope without Russian backing?


Go into partnership with Andretti with a view to a split in 5 years when they eventually get their act together


----------



## Reynard (3 Mar 2022)

Beebo said:


> I agree. But how would Haas cope without Russian backing?



You make your bed and lie in it, I suppose...

Don't think anyone will touch Haas with a bargepole until they divest themselves of one half of their driver line-up.


----------



## BrumJim (3 Mar 2022)

Reynard said:


> You make your bed and lie in it, I suppose...
> 
> Don't think anyone will touch Haas with a bargepole until they divest themselves of one half of their driver line-up.



Because he's Russian, or because he's rubbish?


----------



## icowden (3 Mar 2022)

BrumJim said:


> Because he's Russian, or because he's rubbish?


Because:

He's Russian
His dad won't be paying for him to race any more
There are better racers that can replace him, if he isn't bringing the $$$$, possibly even other pay drivers.


----------



## Reynard (3 Mar 2022)

BrumJim said:


> Because he's Russian, or because he's rubbish?



The optimist in me likes to think it's the latter


----------



## figbat (3 Mar 2022)

Well it’s not like Gene Haas is scraping along on the breadline.

Mazepin’s seat is based on his access to money - when this is gone he’s not got a lot left to offer. Pay-to-drive can wheedle out some talent - Stroll has turned out to be not useless for example - but Niki has remained consistently at the back despite his dad’s money.


----------



## Reynard (3 Mar 2022)

Stroll's an interesting one...

I've been wondering for a while how he would fare outside of Papa's influence, as I think he's actually half decent. Not top drawer, but solid, if a bit up-and-down.

The traditional litmus test for a driver has always been his or her team mate, and Mick Schumacher has pretty well much wiped the floor with Mazepin. Although we don't actually know how good Mick is, because he's been equally greased through the system. He could also yet prove to be another untalented son of a famous father...


----------



## BrumJim (3 Mar 2022)

Reynard said:


> Stroll's an interesting one...
> 
> I've been wondering for a while how he would fare outside of Papa's influence, as I think he's actually half decent. Not top drawer, but solid, if a bit up-and-down.
> 
> The traditional litmus test for a driver has always been his or her team mate, and Mick Schumacher has pretty well much wiped the floor with Mazepin. Although we don't actually know how good Mick is, because he's been equally greased through the system. He could also yet prove to be another untalented son of a famous father...


Like Damon Hill?


----------



## Reynard (3 Mar 2022)

BrumJim said:


> Like Damon Hill?





My opinion of Damon Hill is best not repeated in the public domain.


----------



## BrumJim (3 Mar 2022)

Reynard said:


> My opinion of Damon Hill is best not repeated in the public domain.


Nico Rosberg, Bruno Senna (OK, nephew only), Nelson Piquet Jnr?

(I think I've run out of non-Verstappen options from my memory)


----------



## classic33 (3 Mar 2022)

BrumJim said:


> Nico Rosberg, Bruno Senna (OK, nephew only), Nelson Piquet Jnr?
> 
> (I think I've run out of non-Verstappen options from my memory)


Jacques Villeneuve


----------



## BrumJim (3 Mar 2022)

classic33 said:


> Jacques Villeneuve


Of course!


----------



## Reynard (3 Mar 2022)

The three Brabham brothers (Geoff, Gary, David), Justin Bell, Paul Stewart, Leo Mansell, Josh Hill...


----------



## BrumJim (3 Mar 2022)

I would have remembered Paul Stewart at a push, but wouldn't have got the other ones.


----------



## Reynard (3 Mar 2022)

BrumJim said:


> I would have remembered Paul Stewart at a push, but wouldn't have got the other ones.



Ah, the advantages of being a nerd


----------



## Reynard (3 Mar 2022)

Other than Leo Mansell and Josh Hill (much later in the timeline), the others were all sponsored by Camel in the late 1980s, and I have assorted press material in my collection.


----------



## figbat (3 Mar 2022)

Christian Fittipaldi, Michael Andretti, Kevin Magnussen, and don't forget Jolyon Palmer!


----------



## Reynard (3 Mar 2022)

figbat said:


> Christian Fittipaldi, Michael Andretti, Kevin Magnussen, and don't forget Jolyon Palmer!



Joylon is a far, far better commentator than his father - that's got to count for something...  I genuinely enjoy listening to him on Radio 5's F1 coverage.


----------



## icowden (3 Mar 2022)

Reynard said:


> Joylon is a far, far better commentator than his father - that's got to count for something...  I genuinely enjoy listening to him on Radio 5's F1 coverage.


Yes, he does really seem to have found post F1 contentment as a commentator, and I agree - he's very good at it. Good insight and no bias.


----------



## Reynard (3 Mar 2022)

icowden said:


> Yes, he does really seem to have found post F1 contentment as a commentator, and I agree - he's very good at it. Good insight and no bias.



And the perfect foil for Jack Nicholls latter-day Murray Walker-isms... 

Listening to those two talking about cheese and chess at Spa last year was hilarious... JP was a junior chess champion apparently.


----------



## icowden (3 Mar 2022)

Reynard said:


> Listening to those two talking about cheese and chess at Spa last year was hilarious... JP was a junior chess champion apparently.


I read an interview recently where JP talked about his F1 career and the fact that he just wasn't enjoying driving in F1. When he lost his seat, in many ways I think he saw it as a bit of a blessing.


----------



## Beebo (4 Mar 2022)

Reynard said:


> The three Brabham brothers (Geoff, Gary, David), Justin Bell, Paul Stewart, Leo Mansell, Josh Hill...


Is Mazepin any worse that these guys?

Could every billionaire bankroll their son to an F1 seat if given the best equipment for 15 years in the junior formulas? I genuinely don’t have any idea how hard it is for an average driver to learn to be good. 
There has to be some natural talent.


----------



## Phaeton (4 Mar 2022)

BrumJim said:


> Like Damon Hill?


Probably being very unpatriotic but I think both Hill & Button became World champions as they were in the right car at the right time, both very good drivers, but not the elite rung.


----------



## Beebo (4 Mar 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Probably being very unpatriotic but I think both Hill & Button became World champions as they were in the right car at the right time, both very good drivers, but not the elite rung.


They got lucky for sure, but similarly I dont think Vettel would have been a 4 times champion without being lucky too. 
They all have one thing in common, they were better than their teammate.


----------



## matticus (4 Mar 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Probably being very unpatriotic but I think both Hill & Button became World champions as they were in the right car at the right time, both very good drivers, but not the elite rung.


I'm a big fan of both, but I don't rank them *quite* up with Vettel/Kimi etc. Certainly good enough to give the best guys a fright.
I don't think you can accurately compare DamonH or JacqueV with their fathers because of the difference in era; the competition has (broadly) gotten better and deeper over time.
So overall there are plenty of good "Sons of champions" around. Genetics is always the strongest thing out there. The best chance for an oligarch's son to win a Grand Prix is if the Oligarch was a proven winner :P


----------



## BrumJim (4 Mar 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Probably being very unpatriotic but I think both Hill & Button became World champions as they were in the right car at the right time, both very good drivers, but not the elite rung.


British drivers are disproportianately represented in F1, particularly with respect to World Champions. Whether this is due to our culture, or the fact that most teams, regardless of declared nationality, are based in the UK is not clear. Finland and Brazil are also remarkably successful, with Germany coming to the top table since the success of Michael Schumacher.

CountryNumber of different F1 World ChampionsUK10​Brazil3​Finland3​Germany3​Italy2​Australia2​USA2​Austria2​Argentina1​New Zealand1​South Africa1​France1​Canada1​Spain​1​Netherlands1​

However what is also clear is that British drivers are much, much more likely to be one-championship wonders:

CountryNumber of one-time F1 World Champions:UK6​USA2​Finland2​Italy1​New Zealand1​Austria1​South Africa1​Australia1​Canada1​Germany1​Netherlands1​


----------



## matticus (4 Mar 2022)

BrumJim said:


> However what is also clear is that British drivers are much, much more likely to be one-championship wonders:
> 
> CountryNumber of one-time F1 World Champions:UK6​USA2​Finland2​Italy1​


That's harsh - ALL (100%) of america's (and Italy's) winners are "one-championship wonders"!


----------



## Alex321 (4 Mar 2022)

BrumJim said:


> ​
> 
> However what is also clear is that British drivers are much, much more likely to be one-championship wonders:
> 
> ​


I don't buy that. 60% of UK champions are "1-champ wonders". 100% of US, 66% of Finland, 50% of Italy. The only ones with a lower proportion are Germany and Brazil.


----------



## BrumJim (4 Mar 2022)

Alex321 said:


> I don't buy that. 60% of UK champions are "1-champ wonders". 100% of US, 66% of Finland, 50% of Italy. The only ones with a lower proportion are Germany and Brazil.


Driver Nationality Times Won
*Mike Hawthorn UK 1*
Graham Hill UK 2
Jim Clark UK 2
*John Surtees UK 1*
Jackie Stewart UK 3
*James Hunt UK 1
Nigel Mansell UK 1
Damon Hill UK 1*
Lewis Hamilton UK 7
* Jenson Button UK 1*

One time winners in bold.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (4 Mar 2022)

I reckon Lewis's 7 should have an asterisk, same as Verstappen's does.


----------



## BrumJim (4 Mar 2022)

Bonefish Blues said:


> I reckon Lewis's 7 should have an asterisk, same as Verstappen's does.


Whose shouldn't?


----------



## icowden (4 Mar 2022)

Beebo said:


> Is Mazepin any worse that these guys?
> Could every billionaire bankroll their son to an F1 seat if given the best equipment for 15 years in the junior formulas? I genuinely don’t have any idea how hard it is for an average driver to learn to be good.
> There has to be some natural talent.


Well if we look at his career, his best place in karting over 5 years was 2nd in the Karting world championship in 2014. He only finished above 10th 6 times. He was mostly towards the back. He continued in the same vein in Formula 3 and Formula 2. In 2019 and 2020 he actually managed to finish 3rd and 5th in F3 and F2 respectively, and he did get a 2nd place in GP3 in 2018 (probably his most successful season with 4 wins and three 2nds), but otherwise was toward the back.

If we compare with Hamilton, he won his first 3 karting seasons from 1995-7, won again in 1999 and got a 2nd place, won twice in 2000. Moved to Formula Renault where he consistently finished at the top of the field for 2001-2, and got a 1st in 2003, 2004 another 1st, 2004-2006 3 wins in F3 and GP2, then onto almost 3 WDCs in a row for F1. Then the quiet years where he finished in the top5, then another 6 wdcs and two seconds. 

So yes, you can pay for someone to be a mediocre (at best) driver and get them to the top flight, but they are never going to compete with someone who has talent and skill. If you put Mazepin in a Mercedes I very much doubt that he'd do a George Russell with it and look in danger of winning.


----------



## Reynard (4 Mar 2022)

Beebo said:


> Is Mazepin any worse that these guys?
> 
> Could every billionaire bankroll their son to an F1 seat if given the best equipment for 15 years in the junior formulas? I genuinely don’t have any idea how hard it is for an average driver to learn to be good.
> There has to be some natural talent.



Money and being in the right place at the right time. As has always been the case in motor racing, right since the very beginning. Rodriguez brothers, anyone? It wasn't long before both were dead.

Either you get to the top through talent or you get to the top through money, although in the last couple of decades, that balance has definitely shifted much more towards money. Talent really only plays a very small part.

My historian friend recently told me a story of a very wealthy magnate who forced his son to race in F3000 in the late 1980s with the threat of inheritance consequences if he didn't. My friend didn't name names unfortunately, but he'd had the information from multiple reliable sources.

It's far less risky now, though, with the cars and circuits being that much safer than they used to be, and if Papa has a bottomless pit of money, why not live their dreams through their little boys. In the past, drivers like Mazepin would have been weeded out by injury or death.

As for Paul Stewart and Justin Bell, no amount of sponsorship money could counterbalance their lack of talent. Paul did get to F3000, but spent most of that time scratching around at the back. I know remember Justin raced in FVL back in the day, but I don't recall him racing in F3. I think Vauxhall Lotus was about as far as he got.


----------



## Phaeton (5 Mar 2022)

Haas has kicked the driver & sponsor down the road, they must have a replacement sponsor lined up or it wouldn't have happened, hopefully it comes without strings of a driver & they are free to chose.


----------



## Reynard (5 Mar 2022)

Inevitable, really... There was just far too much of a stink surrounding the situation. Pietro Fittipaldi or Oscar Piastri seem to be the names being bandied about.

Mazepin is saying it's unfair he's been sacked, but alas, Russia (and those close to the government) have made their bed, and now they have to lie in it. Oh what a pity...


----------



## icowden (5 Mar 2022)

Reynard said:


> Mazepin is saying it's unfair he's been sacked, but alas, Russia (and those close to the government) have made their bed, and now they have to lie in it. Oh what a pity...



Even if he wasn't being sacked for "being russian" he'd be sacked for "not bringing the money to the team any more, so we are going with a better driver".


----------



## figbat (5 Mar 2022)

Reynard said:


> Inevitable, really... There was just far too much of a stink surrounding the situation. Pietro Fittipaldi or Oscar Piastri seem to be the names being bandied about.
> 
> Mazepin is saying it's unfair he's been sacked, but alas, Russia (and those close to the government) have made their bed, and now they have to lie in it. Oh what a pity...


Whilst it does seem unfair to the competitors, ultimately the money flows back to Russia if they are competing - the only way to be sure is to cut the flow at source.


----------



## Reynard (5 Mar 2022)

icowden said:


> Even if he wasn't being sacked for "being russian" he'd be sacked for "not bringing the money to the team any more, so we are going with a better driver".



And in any case, daddy's roubles are only worth half of what they were - and becoming more worthless by the day.


----------



## Reynard (5 Mar 2022)

figbat said:


> Whilst it does seem unfair to the competitors, ultimately the money flows back to Russia if they are competing - the only way to be sure is to cut the flow at source.



Danil Kvyat was going on about this yesterday - he's racing in the WEC these days. There is also a fairly successful Russian-run team in the WEC, so they'll be hit too.

Cultural and sporting sanctions tie into the financial ones through sponsorship, TV deals etc. After UEFA cut ties with Gazprom, the company's value fell by 90-something percent. Ouch.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (5 Mar 2022)

Reynard said:


> And in any case, daddy's roubles are only worth half of what they were - and becoming more worthless by the day.


Definitely trouble at t' mill.


----------



## matticus (5 Mar 2022)

icowden said:


> Even if he wasn't being sacked for "being russian" he'd be sacked for "not bringing the money to the team any more, so we are going with a better driver".


Good point.
The Russian ban/cancel/sanction is a painful thing all-round: I have some sympathy for russians trying to earn an honest living abroad, with no associations to the Putin dictatorship. BUT: in this case he's a very lucky boy to have all that money behind him in the first place - his "job" is just like a rich guy's hobby really. Live by the free market, die by it.


----------



## Reynard (5 Mar 2022)

It cuts both ways.

My historian friend has numerous contacts in the historic racing scene here in the UK, and says that the sanctions will affect this side of things too - as there are competitors who make a living and fund their racing and the restoration of cars through buying and selling Russian debt & bonds.

And given that the major financial houses have now reclassified Russian bonds as junk...


----------



## FishFright (5 Mar 2022)

Reynard said:


> It cuts both ways.
> 
> My historian friend has numerous contacts in the historic racing scene here in the UK, and says that the sanctions will affect this side of things too - as there are competitors who make a living and fund their racing and the restoration of cars through buying and selling Russian debt & bonds.
> 
> And given that the major financial houses have now reclassified Russian bonds as junk...



Dodgy investments can go up or down . Past performance of dodgy money is no guarantee of it not being worth sweet Fanny Adams when the hangover kicks in.


----------



## Reynard (5 Mar 2022)

FishFright said:


> Dodgy investments can go up or down . Past performance of dodgy money is no guarantee of it not being worth sweet Fanny Adams when the hangover kicks in.



Any investment, for that matter, not just the dodgy ones. There is always an element of risk involved. And the saying goes that to make a fortune in motorsport, you need to start with an even bigger fortune.

Mind you, soon it will be cheaper to use rouble bank notes instead of toilet roll...


----------



## Phaeton (6 Mar 2022)

Have Ferrari dropped their Russian sponsor, it's been very quiet on that front.


----------



## Reynard (6 Mar 2022)

Kaspersky, iirc?


----------



## classic33 (6 Mar 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Have Ferrari dropped their Russian sponsor, it's been very quiet on that front.


Five days old, but
https://scuderiafans.com/kaspersky-to-remain-ferrari-partner-amid-ukraine-crisis-a-global-company/


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (6 Mar 2022)

classic33 said:


> Five days old, but
> https://scuderiafans.com/kaspersky-to-remain-ferrari-partner-amid-ukraine-crisis-a-global-company/


Huh

what was it people said FIA stood for ???


----------



## FishFright (6 Mar 2022)

classic33 said:


> Five days old, but
> https://scuderiafans.com/kaspersky-to-remain-ferrari-partner-amid-ukraine-crisis-a-global-company/



"operated by a holding company in the United Kingdom" 

and

In 2016, Kaspersky executive Ruslan Stoyanov was arrested by Russian authorities on charges predating his work at Kaspersky. In 2019, he was convicted of treason. So maybe not a great pals of Putin?

Both according to Wikibumperbookoflies at least .


----------



## Reynard (6 Mar 2022)

It's official, G-Drive have pulled out of the WEC over the FIA's code of conduct for Russian competitors. Roman Rusinov has thrown the toys out of the pram. Quel surprise... 

https://www.motorsport.com/wec/news..._Z5U65WUVT9_i6oo3xYHI0jZI3uDs_OkSGqoCalCHVCzA


----------



## Profpointy (9 Mar 2022)

Just found this.
Much more exciting that formula 1.
Seems very much a thing in the Spanish and Portuguese speaking countries


View: https://youtu.be/gbdoaC4MHI0


----------



## matticus (9 Mar 2022)

Profpointy said:


> Just found this.
> Much more exciting that formula 1.
> Seems very much a thing in the Spanish and Portuguese speaking countries
> 
> ...



_Scots_: Hold mah beer

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09eFI2nATzY


----------



## Phaeton (9 Mar 2022)

Who left that truck there


----------



## Reynard (9 Mar 2022)

Actually, the japanese say "hold my sake"

Backwards office chair racing, anyone? 


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMWCmgKrEJk


----------



## matticus (9 Mar 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Who left that truck there


You have to laugh at that moment!

Thankyou @Profpointy , a fun 7 minutes. The cobbled downhill LHer at the end looked a massive laugh (probably/despite they were doing 30mph at that point and not 55!)


----------



## Reynard (9 Mar 2022)

Back onto more serious topics...

Haas have replaced Nikita Mazepin with Kevin Magnussen, rather than going for Fittipaldi or Piastri:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/60684180

And both Mazepin and Papa Mazepin have now been added to the EU's list of people under sanction:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/60678476

Finally, a line on motorsport.net (sorry, no link) is that Uralkali are demanding that Haas pay back sponsorship money after the team pulled the plug on their deal. Somehow I can't quite see that happening...


----------



## Phaeton (9 Mar 2022)

Hopefully Magnussen can bring them the experience they need, it's all well & good having a couple of young chargers if they can't develop the car on the track for the engineers.


----------



## Jody (9 Mar 2022)

Place your bets. 

Do we reckon the rumour mill is correct with Mercs B spec car (without side pods) and its appearance tomorrow?

Tomorrow's testing should bring a raft of updates for the majority if teams. Be interesting to see what they've all kept hidden.


----------



## dave r (9 Mar 2022)

Jody said:


> Place your bets.
> 
> Do we reckon the rumour mill is correct with Mercs B spec car (without side pods) and its appearance tomorrow?
> 
> Tomorrow's testing should bring a raft of updates for the majority if teams. Be interesting to see what they've all kept hidden.



Some teams will keep things hidden till the first race weekend


----------



## FishFright (9 Mar 2022)

Jody said:


> Place your bets.
> 
> Do we reckon the rumour mill is correct with Mercs B spec car (without side pods) and its appearance tomorrow?
> 
> Tomorrow's testing should bring a raft of updates for the majority if teams. Be interesting to see what they've all kept hidden.



Read about that earlier , if it's true there will be chaos with protests.

On the other hand if the FIA ban it Toto's reaction will be hilarious.


----------



## Profpointy (9 Mar 2022)

matticus said:


> You have to laugh at that moment!
> 
> Thankyou @Profpointy , a fun 7 minutes. The cobbled downhill LHer at the end looked a massive laugh (probably/despite they were doing 30mph at that point and not 55!)



It does look huge fun doesn't it?


----------



## Jody (10 Mar 2022)

FishFright said:


> Read about that earlier , if it's true there will be chaos with protests.
> 
> On the other hand if the FIA ban it Toto's reaction will be hilarious.



Cats out the bag and it looks like Merc have taken quite a unique approach. RB claiming it isn't within the spirit of the rules


----------



## Phaeton (10 Mar 2022)

Jody said:


> RB claiming it isn't within the spirit of the rules


Has the master of the rule book Adrian Newey missed something? Horner! well he's just turning into a Panto character


----------



## Beebo (10 Mar 2022)

FishFright said:


> Read about that earlier , if it's true there will be chaos with protests.
> 
> On the other hand if the FIA ban it Toto's reaction will be hilarious.


Any team thinking of making big changes usually run it past the FIA to get a steer on whether it’s likely to be acceptable. 
So you would hope they have thought of that already.


----------



## Phaeton (10 Mar 2022)

Beebo said:


> Any team thinking of making big changes usually run it past the FIA to get a steer on whether it’s likely to be acceptable.
> So you would hope they have thought of that already.


Maybe Ross whispered in Toto's ear as a pay-off for the last race


----------



## Jody (10 Mar 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Has the master of the rule book Adrian Newey missed something? Horner! well he's just turning into a Panto character



He will apparently be casting his beady eye over it during this week. 

A video I was watching last night was on about Merc using something called CCS, which is a chemical cooling solution so they can reduce the radiator size. 

It's certainly a radical solution.


----------



## matticus (10 Mar 2022)

Jody said:


> A video I was watching last night was on about Merc using something called CCS, which is a chemical cooling solution so they can reduce the radiator size.


I have every confidence the chemical mix is completely harmless to the environment.


----------



## Jody (10 Mar 2022)

matticus said:


> I have every confidence the chemical mix is completely harmless to the environment.



Not sure 3 litres of coolant in 2 cars is going to be of a major environmental concern.


----------



## matticus (10 Mar 2022)

Jody said:


> Not sure 3 litres of coolant in 2 cars is going to be of a major environmental concern.


If it works, that will be all 20 cars on the grid pretty soon - and how often will that 3 litres get replaced?

Not a great example of sustainable trickle-down tech. But as I said, if it's harmless, great!


----------



## FishFright (10 Mar 2022)

Beebo said:


> Any team thinking of making big changes usually run it past the FIA to get a steer on whether it’s likely to be acceptable.
> So you would hope they have thought of that already.



They have done but that's never the end of it with the FIA. In this era of the cost cap and development restrictions I can't see the FIA banning this design , or any others, unless its a blatant rule break. Any ban would destroy this season for the team(s) affected and probably for a fair few seasons.

I do think it's brilliant how many different ways the teams have designed very different cars to meet the new rules. As times go on their designs will converge to a similar solution so best enjoy it while we can.


ETA That Merc is pretty cool !


----------



## Jody (10 Mar 2022)

matticus said:


> If it works, that will be all 20 cars on the grid pretty soon - and how often will that 3 litres get replaced?
> 
> Not a great example of sustainable trickle-down tech. But as I said, if it's harmless, great!



In the scheme of harmful pollutants and shipping 20 cars and personnel round the world for a year, it's not really that big of a concern.


----------



## matticus (10 Mar 2022)

Jody said:


> In the scheme of harmful pollutants and shipping 20 cars and personnel round the world for a year, it's not really that big of a concern.


I think you'll find "the scheme" is a lot bigger than that. I assume you live on the same planet as me, Toto et al? Are their pollutants ring-fenced somehow?
Explain how my concern should be dismissed?

[Yes, you've set me off, well done if you were just trolling ... ]


----------



## FishFright (10 Mar 2022)

Jody said:


> Cats out the bag and it looks like Merc have taken quite a unique approach. RB claiming it isn't within the spirit of the rules



From Motosport.com 
09:58 Horner on his comments about the Mercedes sidepod design, despite Red Bull stating "no official comment" has been made by the team: "I was slightly surprised to be reading comments that I was supposed to have been making. To be honest with you I haven't paid a great deal of attention to it, but it is obviously a fairly different concept, but that is for the aero guys and the designers to get into."


----------



## Jody (10 Mar 2022)

FishFright said:


> From Motosport.com
> 09:58 Horner on his comments about the Mercedes sidepod design, despite Red Bull stating "no official comment" has been made by the team: "I was slightly surprised to be reading comments that I was supposed to have been making. To be honest with you I haven't paid a great deal of attention to it, but it is obviously a fairly different concept, but that is for the aero guys and the designers to get into."



Off the record comment has been put out there and now they're are scrambling for denials because it wasn't "official"

"To be honest" lol "I Haven't paid a great deal of attention to it"? Yeh, alright pinocchio.




During the first hour of pre-season testing in Bahrain, there appeared to be comment from Horner to a usually very credible media outlet in Auto Motor und Sport.

“The new Mercedes violates the spirit of the regulations,” Horner was reported to have said.

“For us, there are some parts that are not legal.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/christian-horner-mercedes-w13-not-legal/


----------



## Jody (10 Mar 2022)

matticus said:


> I think you'll find "the scheme" is a lot bigger than that. I assume you live on the same planet as me, Toto et al? Are their pollutants ring-fenced somehow?
> Explain how my concern should be dismissed?
> 
> [Yes, you've set me off, well done if you were just trolling ... ]



I wasn't trolling anyone!

They use 400 tyres in a race weekend, ship all cars and personnel around the world for a year, all the flights taken, fuel burned, carbon fibre parts that are used for one or two weekends and you’re concerned with a few litres of coolant that you don't even know is harmful?


----------



## FishFright (10 Mar 2022)

Jody said:


> Off the record comment has been put out there and now they're are scrambling for denials because it wasn't "official"
> 
> "To be honest" lol "I Haven't paid a great deal of attention to it"? Yeh, alright pinocchio.
> 
> ...



I was reporting what has been said today.
If you prefer I'll post old news instead , if that makes you happy?


----------



## Phaeton (10 Mar 2022)

It will be interesting to see if it does run into cooling issues, there were times last year when it was borderline & they had to ease back, but maybe with less disturbance from the car in front that may not be as much an issue as before, or we'll see the Mercs running a different line down the straights.

What does 'In the spirit of the regulations' even mean?

Or does it mean, why the F didn't we think of that?


----------



## matticus (10 Mar 2022)

Jody said:


> I wasn't trolling anyone!
> 
> They use 400 tyres in a race weekend, ship all cars and personnel around the world for a year, all the flights taken, fuel burned, carbon fibre parts that are used for one or two weekends and you’re concerned with a few litres of coolant that you don't even know is harmful?


I simply don't believe that you can disregard environmental damage just because you are surrounded by other polluters. You are aware that in the west internal combustion engines have legally controlled emissions? There are no free passes - we are watching the sport from the same planet, they build some of the bloody cars 10 miles from me!

"_You may as well ..._" is never a good argument.

[I could also bring up F1's pretence at being more eco-friendly - in which case they should ban any new material that is more harmful than what it replaces, until approval is granted after proper scrutiny.]


----------



## dave r (10 Mar 2022)

Phaeton said:


> It will be interesting to see if it does run into cooling issues, there were times last year when it was borderline & they had to ease back, but maybe with less disturbance from the car in front that may not be as much an issue as before, or we'll see the Mercs running a different line down the straights.
> 
> What does 'In the spirit of the regulations' even mean?
> 
> Or does it mean, why the F didn't we think of that?



Your last line is probably true.


----------



## Jody (10 Mar 2022)

FishFright said:


> I was reporting what has been said today.
> If you prefer I'll post old news instead , if that makes you happy?



It's todays news.



matticus said:


> I simply don't believe that you can disregard environmental damage just because you are surrounded by other polluters. You are aware that in the west internal combustion engines have legally controlled emissions? There are no free passes - we are watching the sport from the same planet, they build some of the bloody cars 10 miles from me!
> 
> "_You may as well ..._" is never a good argument.
> 
> [I could also bring up F1's pretence at being more eco-friendly - in which case they should ban any new material that is more harmful than what it replaces, until approval is granted after proper scrutiny.]



I disreagard it because it seems a little pedantic to go after a team for environmental damage when you don't even know what the chemical composition of the coolant is.


----------



## FishFright (10 Mar 2022)

Jody said:


> It's todays news.
> 
> 
> 
> I disreagard it because it seems a little pedantic to go after a team for environmental damage when you don't even know what the chemical composition of the coolant is.



My fault , misread the PF1 date.


----------



## matticus (10 Mar 2022)

Jody said:


> I disreagard it because it seems a little pedantic to go after a team for environmental damage when you don't even know what the chemical composition of the coolant is.


Then why not say that? Would have saved a lot of bandwidth! ; -)


----------



## Jody (10 Mar 2022)

https://www.planetf1.com/news/red-bull-christian-horner-comment-to-go-away/

lol

“In summary, it is clear Horner did speak to Schmidt (extensively, I hear) and did say what he is quoted as saying.

“But it seems Red Bull now want it to go away, hence the remark about “no official comment” (whatever that means). It won’t go away, though. Obviously.”


----------



## Jody (10 Mar 2022)

matticus said:


> Then why not say that? Would have saved a lot of bandwidth! ; -)



My fault eh?


----------



## matticus (10 Mar 2022)

Jody said:


> My fault eh?


It's there in black-and-white, read it back if you want!


----------



## Jody (10 Mar 2022)

matticus said:


> It's there in black-and-white, read it back if you want!



What evs


----------



## FishFright (10 Mar 2022)

Happily for Haas there are out on track for the second session of testing.


----------



## Reynard (10 Mar 2022)

Hmmmm, I'd be willing to bet my stash of chocolate that it's the "bugger, why didn't we think of that first" green-eyed monster. That sort of thing's been going on since Cooper put the engine behind the driver in the late 50s and revolutionized the way a single seater car was engineered and how it handled out on track, putting everyone else's noses out of joint... Funny then that everyone then followed suit in fairly short order...

Liking the variation in the cars this year, will be interesting to see what works and what doesn't. It's so refreshing to see a grid full of cars that look different.


----------



## Phaeton (10 Mar 2022)

Reynard said:


> It's so refreshing to see a grid full of cars that look different.


If fugly


----------



## icowden (10 Mar 2022)

Reynard said:


> Liking the variation in the cars this year, will be interesting to see what works and what doesn't. It's so refreshing to see a grid full of cars that look different.


And indeed no real indication yet of who will be the front runners, and who will be bringing up the rear. Ferrari seem to be going very well, but there's so much sandbagging and not giving the game away going on...

Although I did like this from Merc:


View: https://twitter.com/MercedesAMGF1/status/1501922618290708481?s=20&t=xrf_to2qDjtIptxMeLIX0w


----------



## Beebo (10 Mar 2022)

icowden said:


> And indeed no real indication yet of who will be the front runners, and who will be bringing up the rear. Ferrari seem to be going very well, but there's so much sandbagging and not giving the game away going on...
> 
> Although I did like this from Merc:
> 
> ...



F1 has a “Look but don’t touch” policy. 
A bit like a strip club, so I’ve been told.


----------



## Reynard (10 Mar 2022)

Phaeton said:


> If fugly



These cars look somewhat better than the last generation of cars, but IMHO pretty F1 cars disappeared in the mid 90s, about the time where computer analysis of structure and aero became a valid thing.


----------



## Jody (10 Mar 2022)

Reynard said:


> Liking the variation in the cars this year, will be interesting to see what works and what doesn't. It's so refreshing to see a grid full of cars that look different.



Absolutely. 



icowden said:


> Although I did like this from Merc:



Is this a new thing that has been introduced? I can't recall teams having to line their cars up, leave them and let other people poke their head/cameras around.


----------



## Reynard (10 Mar 2022)

Beebo said:


> F1 has a “Look but don’t touch” policy.
> A bit like a strip club, so I’ve been told.



Hah!

I remember Scott Stringfellow racing in class B in the British F3 championship in the late 80s. Sponsored by his father's chain of clubs. The car was black with pink signwriting, IIRC. (Nerd Alert - Scott is the safety car driver for the BTCC)

A friend of mine was once sponsored by Legs 11...


----------



## Phaeton (10 Mar 2022)

Reynard said:


> These cars look somewhat better than the last generation of cars,


The front mudguards which look like they are going to have headlights mounted no them & just ridiculous & the triangular shape of the rear wings is wrong, although as a side profile they aren't bad.


----------



## Reynard (10 Mar 2022)

They're not that bad, you know...

March 711...


----------



## FishFright (10 Mar 2022)

Jody said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> 
> 
> Is this a new thing that has been introduced? I can't recall teams having to line their cars up, leave them and let other people poke their head/cameras around.



I believe it is part of the new rules package , rather like the way front wings had to be on display outside the garage in the previous ruleset


----------



## Jenkins (10 Mar 2022)

Reynard said:


> Hah!
> 
> I remember Scott Stringfellow racing in class B in the British F3 championship in the late 80s. Sponsored by his father's chain of clubs. The car was black with pink signwriting, IIRC. (Nerd Alert - Scott is the safety car driver for the BTCC)
> 
> A friend of mine was once sponsored by Legs 11...


Apologies for going completely off topic (and for the poor photo!), but I think this driver had the 'adult magazine' sponsorship covered


----------



## Reynard (10 Mar 2022)

Jenkins said:


> Apologies for going completely off topic (and for the poor photo!), but I think this driver had the 'adult magazine' sponsorship covered
> View attachment 634786



Who says it's off topic?!?!?! It's a racing car! 

But yeah, that wins the Internet, I think.


----------



## Beebo (11 Mar 2022)

Jenkins said:


> Apologies for going completely off topic (and for the poor photo!), but I think this driver had the 'adult magazine' sponsorship covered
> View attachment 634786


It’s all the better for being on a rubbish car too. 
Very low rent!


----------



## figbat (11 Mar 2022)

Drive to Survive series 4 out now - looking forward to this one!


----------



## Phaeton (11 Mar 2022)

Oops


----------



## Beebo (11 Mar 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Oops
> 
> View attachment 634851


A whole day of testing up in smoke.
They only did 12 laps.


----------



## Phaeton (11 Mar 2022)

Presumably testing is within the price cap


----------



## dave r (11 Mar 2022)

Beebo said:


> A whole day of testing up in smoke.
> They only did 12 laps.



A brake fire that melted part of the suspension.


----------



## Beebo (11 Mar 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Presumably testing is within the price cap


I presume the driver’s allocation of engines and gearboxes isn’t included in testing


----------



## icowden (11 Mar 2022)

Beebo said:


> I presume the driver’s allocation of engines and gearboxes isn’t included in testing


Testing is testing - I think they can use whatever parts they want, but because of the cost cap, they will only have so many engines / gearboxes / DRS units etc built that they can use. They can only use 3 engines and gearboxes per car across the season, so it will be about their cost and what else can be afforded under the budget.


----------



## icowden (13 Mar 2022)

So testing over...

How much do we thing Mercedes are sandbagging and Red Bull boasting...
Are Ferrari making a comeback?


----------



## Bonefish Blues (13 Mar 2022)

Merc are looking like it's a boom or bust design. Interesting to see which one it is!


----------



## FishFright (13 Mar 2022)

icowden said:


> So testing over...
> 
> How much do we thing Mercedes are sandbagging and Red Bull boasting...
> Are Ferrari making a comeback?



For the first time for ages I think Mercedes aren't sandbagging. It doesn't look aero stable , not just the porpoising, plus the front end looks erratic at low speed. Usually they just run a conservative programme at the pre season tests so look a little slower than others.

I have no doubt they will sort it out very quickly but will that cost them dear at the tail end of the season with too few resources available?


----------



## figbat (13 Mar 2022)

Maybe they’ll bring their more conventional car to the season opener? The final RBB run with significantly updated aero seemed to be a big statement. Nothing like a massive concept change to shake the field up a bit!


----------



## dave r (13 Mar 2022)

icowden said:


> So testing over...
> 
> How much do we thing Mercedes are sandbagging and Red Bull boasting...
> Are Ferrari making a comeback?



We'll know the answer at the first race weekend.


----------



## icowden (13 Mar 2022)

dave r said:


> We'll know the answer at the first race weekend.


Well that's no fun. Don't you know that the "in" thing is to speculate without any discernible evidence?


----------



## dave r (13 Mar 2022)

icowden said:


> Well that's no fun. Don't you know that the "in" thing is to speculate without any discernible evidence?



I stopped doing that about twenty years ago.


----------



## Phaeton (13 Mar 2022)

icowden said:


> Well that's no fun. Don't you know that the "in" thing is to speculate without any discernible evidence?


In the spirit of this, the drivers will be demanding changes if the techies can't dial out the porpoising, no way they can race if that continues.


----------



## Reynard (13 Mar 2022)

Phaeton said:


> In the spirit of this, the drivers will be demanding changes if the techies can't dial out the porpoising, no way they can race if that continues.



Maybe we should stick the poor little cherubs in some turbo-era (early / mid 1980s) cars and see how they cope...


----------



## icowden (14 Mar 2022)

Phaeton said:


> That I think is one of the issues with the current F1, why there are only 4 engine manufacturers on the grid, the relevance of F1 to the road going cars is tenuous. Look what happened in the 80/90's when techs were allowed to dream, we go active suspension, anti-lock brakes, all now standard on many cars.


I think that's covered in the F1 technical roadmap which is looking much more electrical for the 2026 regs. Lets face it, I can't see Renault sticking around much longer, and even Mercedes must be starting to think ICE is at the end of the road as they invest in their EVs. 

Maybe we'll get F1 Tesla at some point... (although presumably no driver... )


----------



## Reynard (14 Mar 2022)

Phaeton said:


> That I think is one of the issues with the current F1, why there are only 4 engine manufacturers on the grid, the relevance of F1 to the road going cars is tenuous. Look what happened in the 80/90's when techs were allowed to dream, we go active suspension, anti-lock brakes, all now standard on many cars.



Don't forget the flappy paddle gearshift... You can thank John Barnard for that one - courtesy of the late 80s trend for narrow noses.

Funny you should mention engines. Even with the current regs, there's been big steps forward on efficiency and eco / synthetic fuels - which will filter down. EV have their own separate issues in terms of how green and practical they actually are, but this isn't the place to discuss them.

I had an interesting discussion with my historian friend the other night about F1 engines. More specifically about the ones that haven't actually won an F1 race. When you flip that debate through 180 degrees, there are actually very few really successful engines, but those that are truly successful do require a lot of time and investment.

Yamaha, Porsche, Peugeot and Lamborghini amongst others have all slunk off with egg on their faces after attempting limited-budget programmes. And never mind the attempt at building a W12...


----------



## matticus (14 Mar 2022)

icowden said:


> Here's some reading:
> 
> F1 statement on sustainability
> https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/...ro-carbon-by-2030.5IaX2AZHyy7jqxl6wra6CZ.html
> ...


Yes, F1 is making a lot of green statements. That is why I mentioned the introduction of new chemicals upthread; it seems contrary to the message they are promoting. (I know not how much this is just greenwash!)


icowden said:


> And yes, some fans will travel around the world to see Grands Prix. Those *tend* to be the very wealthy ones, and in the minority. I've been to Silverstone three times because it is in the UK. I think that's probably a fairly representative scenario.


This is an interesting area:
I haven't seen a proper analysis*, but 100,000s of fans drive to most races (generally from just a 150-mile radius, at a rough guess. But lots drive from Finland to Hungary, or UK to Monaco ...)
How does their carbon footprint compare to the racing cars? Or the planes carrying those cars around the world? I don't know, but I suspect the driving fans are not insignificant!


*This is my bible on similar matters:
https://g.co/kgs/z4NyT4


----------



## Phaeton (14 Mar 2022)

icowden said:


> I think that's covered in the F1 technical roadmap which is looking much more electrical for the 2026 regs. Lets face it, I can't see Renault sticking around much longer, and even Mercedes must be starting to think ICE is at the end of the road as they invest in their EVs.
> 
> Maybe we'll get F1 Tesla at some point... (although presumably no driver... )


I'm still not convinced that electric is the answer, which is why the innovative F1 boffins could help out, not sure if it's a hybrid or even a different fuel combustion engine, hydrogen etc.


----------



## CharlesF (14 Mar 2022)

Is the Mercedes W13 such a poor car this year, and why?

I have tried reading the technical reports but do not have a good enough background to properly understand them, plus the accompanying photos don’t help!


----------



## figbat (14 Mar 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I'm still not convinced that electric is the answer, which is why the innovative F1 boffins could help out, not sure if it's a hybrid or even a different fuel combustion engine, hydrogen etc.


Well F1 cars are already hybrids and road-going hybrids are 20+ years old, so hardly new technology. In this respect, arguably, road cars led F1 to this territory.

Combusting any fuel will always be problematic in terms of emissions. Sure, if you burn hydrogen you don't get any carbonaceous emissions, but you still get NOx and you still have a combustion engine with thousands of moving parts needing lubrication, which needs replacing over time.


----------



## Reynard (14 Mar 2022)

Indycar run on ethanol and have done for a very long time, so alternative fuels are nothing new in motor racing.

I'd like to think hydrogen is the answer, but it would mean much more stringent impact tests than currently in place, as well as far more armouring on the fuel tank and hoses - assuming some form of ICE is retained. Hydrogen can be burned in a modified ICE, not just used in a fuel cell like in spacecraft. The problem is that it has to be kept under high pressure, which is not so good in situations involving high speed impacts.

Formula E is looking at fuel cell tech for the future as opposed to batteries, btw.

Nitrous oxides are predominantly produced by nitrogen bound in the fuel, particularly so with diesels. Ergo all the controversy a few years back. Petrol engines also produce them, but to a lesser extent as you're using a lighter, more refined fraction of crude oil. Pure hydrogen doesn't have that, although if burning hydrogen, you will produce a small amount (probably) due to the high temperatures of combustion. Although I will say that combustion chemistry is not my area of expertise, so I suggest some further reading may be required.


----------



## figbat (14 Mar 2022)

As I understand it, NOx is principally driven by high temperature combustion of atmospheric N2, hence why you can get different NOx levels out of the same engine dependent on combustion management. There’s not a lot of nitrogen in road fuel but there’s plenty in the air.


----------



## Reynard (14 Mar 2022)

I think both, but you are probably correct - as I said upthread, it's not an area I've explored beyond what I did in my IC engines and thermodynamics courses as an engineering undergrad. Breaking things was much more fun... 

But diesel is far less volatile than petrol, and so requires higher combustion temperatures, which is why, for all their greater efficiency, diesel engines (combustion via compression) are dirtier than petrol (combustion via ignition).


----------



## FishFright (14 Mar 2022)

Reynard said:


> Maybe we should stick the poor little cherubs in some turbo-era (early / mid 1980s) cars and see how they cope...



It would be a walk in the park for a present F1 driver. Bar a change in throttle control every other metric is very much higher then back in those days. The old turbo cars only raced with 650 - 700 bhp and cornered way slower than today.

Until they crashed of course.


----------



## Reynard (14 Mar 2022)

FishFright said:


> It would be a walk in the park for a present F1 driver. Bar a change in throttle control every other metric is very much higher then back in those days. The old turbo cars only raced with 650 - 700 bhp and cornered way slower than today.
> 
> Until they crashed of course.



I'm not quite so sure... Slower doesn't necessarily mean less physical.

You forget that flappy paddle gearshifts (introduced in 1989 on the Ferrari 639 / 640) and electronic everything didn't really become universal till a good deal later, so the cockpit would have been a simpler - if much busier - place. Most drivers finished with bleeding hands after racing around Monaco.

Chassis were nowhere near as stiff as today either, so handling was far less predictable. This was an era where constructors were transitioning from the more tradition aluminium and aluminium-skinned honeycomb construction (hence the origami-type blocky shapes to the cars) to carbon and kevlar composites, and not everyone got it right. The BT55 (1986) and the Lotus 102 (1990) were classic cases of building a blancmange - according to someone who drove both competitively, they were bloody ghastly.

The BMW turbo was putting out 1500 bhp in qualifying trim, btw. The guys at Brabham used to blank off part of the system with a plank in order to get that out of it. It ran with "only" 1000 bhp in race trim.

I get these moments where I wonder what the result would be if that BMW engine was bolted to the back of a modern F1 car with a much more rigid chassis...


----------



## FishFright (14 Mar 2022)

Reynard said:


> I'm not quite so sure... Slower doesn't necessarily mean less physical.
> 
> You forget that flappy paddle gearshifts (introduced in 1989 on the Ferrari 639 / 640) and electronic everything didn't really become universal till a good deal later, so the cockpit would have been a simpler - if much busier - place. Most drivers finished with bleeding hands after racing around Monaco.
> 
> ...



The bleeding preventable but the constructors didnt care to do for 1 race.


Modern cars certainly handle better but with double the G's cornering and the braking G's the loads are in another league.

Beware BHP inflation , a youtuber followed the max HP in print from around a 1000, to 1200 and then 1500 a good few years later. So in single lap trim they had roughly what's a available all the time now. 


For some strange reason people think modern F1 cars are much easier to drive, 10 times the complexity and much higher G loads on the body make it a bit silly to think they are easy.


----------



## Reynard (14 Mar 2022)

FishFright said:


> The bleeding preventable but the constructors didnt care to do for 1 race.
> 
> 
> Modern cars certainly handle better but with double the G's cornering and the braking G's the loads are in another league.
> ...



My sources are contemporary to the cars, so likely more reliable than average. 

The argument that modern cars are easier to drive than older ones is as old as the second season of motor racing...  I think modern tech just swaps one set of problems for a different set. Where the easy bit comes in, IMHO is that the driver is far less autonomous than in the past, given how much input comes from the team, both at the circuit and from the factory. There are far more people to do a lot of the thinking in terms of tyre choice, strategy, set-up etc than there used to be.


----------



## figbat (14 Mar 2022)

Watch that footage of Senna driving around Monaco - see how easy that looks! Most of it done with one hand on the wheel too.


----------



## Reynard (14 Mar 2022)

That's the thing - good cars make it look easy. But appearance and the doing thereof are very different.

Nearly 4000 gear changes at Monaco during the race, so in the pre flappy paddle era, you would be driving one handed, near enough.


----------



## icowden (15 Mar 2022)

FishFright said:


> For some strange reason people think modern F1 cars are much easier to drive, 10 times the complexity and much higher G loads on the body make it a bit silly to think they are easy.


You only have to look at the steering wheel - it makes a PS4 controller look simple!


----------



## icowden (15 Mar 2022)

CharlesF said:


> Is the Mercedes W13 such a poor car this year, and why?
> I have tried reading the technical reports but do not have a good enough background to properly understand them, plus the accompanying photos don’t help!


I don't think we'll know until the weekend. They seem to have gone for a design choice but in real world testing it doesn't *seem* to have worked as well as thought. It will be interesting to see if they stick with the design from second test or go back to the design from first test.

Without knowing fuel loads and how the engine was dialled in, it's impossible to compare the teams. I think it could be interesting though with potentially a much more mixed grid than usual as all the teams are trying to find the best way to make these cars work.


----------



## icowden (18 Mar 2022)

Watching FP1 - the porpoising on Mercedes doesn't look good compared to Red Bull. They must be feeling seasick!


----------



## figbat (18 Mar 2022)

icowden said:


> Watching FP1 - the porpoising on Mercedes doesn't look good compared to Red Bull. They must be feeling seasick!


I’m amazed it’s still there - I’d have thought they’d have dialled it out by now. Maybe they believe the porpoising is less of a problem than running a higher ground clearance or different suspension settings.


----------



## Phaeton (18 Mar 2022)

figbat said:


> I’m amazed it’s still there - I’d have thought they’d have dialled it out by now. Maybe they believe the porpoising is less of a problem than running a higher ground clearance or different suspension settings.


There's a bit about it on the Skysports website from the Mercedes technical guy, they can easily get rid of it by raising the ride height, but once they do that they lose the speed.

It appears it's getting the spot between acceptable porpoising & speed loss, my non scientific knowledge think Mercedes will have a handle on it in 4 races, if Red Bull can get caught up in Ferrari, Mclaren & Alpha Tauri in the meantime they won't be that far behind.


----------



## Illaveago (19 Mar 2022)

I just saw a clip of it on the Beeb a few minutes ago . It looked terrible! I can't imagine what it would be like driving that for 2 hours!


----------



## dave r (19 Mar 2022)

Illaveago said:


> I just saw a clip of it on the Beeb a few minutes ago . It looked terrible! I can't imagine what it would be like driving that for 2 hours!



is that Hamilton's car? His team mate doesn't seem to have the same problems


----------



## Illaveago (19 Mar 2022)

dave r said:


> is that Hamilton's car? His team mate doesn't seem to have the same problems


Yes. I'm not sure if it was just before the braking zone but it looked pretty uncomfortable!


----------



## Jody (19 Mar 2022)

dave r said:


> is that Hamilton's car? His team mate doesn't seem to have the same problems



Apparently running different floor designs and setup for evaluation.

The car looks awful to drive.


----------



## dave r (19 Mar 2022)

Jody said:


> Apparently running different floor designs and setup for evaluation.
> 
> The car looks awful to drive.



yes I know, it also sounded awful in the clip I saw, the floor hitting the deck as the car bounced. But I'm not expecting it to be the same in Qualifying, they will have sorted for that.


----------



## Jody (19 Mar 2022)

I'm not so sure. I reckon they aren't going to fair well.


----------



## dave r (19 Mar 2022)

Jody said:


> I'm not so sure. I reckon they aren't going to fair well.



We'll have to wait and see, I suspect Toto is playing silly games as usual.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (19 Mar 2022)

dave r said:


> We'll have to wait and see, I suspect Toto is playing silly games as usual.


Not sure silly. Highly professional, and he doesn't half get into Horner's head.

I suspect that at this point he's not sandbagging though, Merc are a little way off the pace.


----------



## dave r (19 Mar 2022)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Not sure silly. Highly professional, and he doesn't half get into Horner's head.
> 
> I suspect that at this point he's not sandbagging though, Merc are a little way off the pace.



The gamesmanship, one of the things that make F1 interesting, did anything interesting happen with the Merc mirrors being called out for being aero devices? I'll wait till after qualifying and see whats really going on.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (19 Mar 2022)

No, because aiui Merc has outsmarted the Rules, as can happen from time to time.


----------



## Phaeton (19 Mar 2022)

I don't think Mercedes are sandbagging if they ever were, I think they are where they are, either the simulations didn't have enough data or something unexpected is happening, I do think they will get a handle on it. 

I also wonder if they will compromise their qualifying IF overtaking is possible, but they will both be at the sharp end, at least in qualifying as it's a single lap, you can take so much pain for a single lap, just not 53 laps (or however many it is)


----------



## Reynard (19 Mar 2022)

Ooooh, Radio 5 Live have added Sam Bird to their commentary team. Loving his analysis. 

Where's Jolyon gone, tho?


----------



## Landsurfer (19 Mar 2022)

Mercedes have admitted that both their cars are driven by 13 year old lads hidden in a shipping container behind the pits .... the drivers only use the steering wheel to hold on to .... the lads in the container are playing XBOX F1 ......!


----------



## Phaeton (19 Mar 2022)

Reynard said:


> Where's Jolyon gone, tho?


Apart from him & his ego will anyone care?


----------



## Reynard (19 Mar 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Apart from him & his ego will anyone care?



Oh, that's harsh... I think he's a really good commentator.

OTOH, I have a *thing* for Sam Bird...


----------



## Phaeton (19 Mar 2022)

Reynard said:


> Oh, that's harsh... I think he's a really good commentator.
> 
> OTOH, I have a *thing* for Sam Bird...


TBF Never heard him commentate, he came across as an entitled spoilt brat, way out of his league when he was driving in F1, nothing ever seemed his fault.


----------



## Reynard (19 Mar 2022)

Phaeton said:


> TBF Never heard him commentate, he came across as an entitled spoilt brat, way out of his league when he was driving in F1, nothing ever seemed his fault.



Show me a top-line racing driver who *isn't* a spoilt brat... Those are as rare as hen's teeth, I tell you.

I refuse to pay into Bernie's retirement fund, ergo if I want live F1 these days, it's via the radio. The 5 Live commentary is excellent compared to Ch4, btw - Jack Nicholls, Jolyon, Jennie Gow and Andrew Benson. Plus I grew up without a telly (didn't get one till my 13th b-day) so radio commentary for sports is pretty well much the default setting.

Simon Taylor was the "voice of motorsport" for me back in the day, and not Murray Walker.


----------



## Beebo (19 Mar 2022)

The FIA report into Abu Dhabi has concluded human error. 
Which is basically an admission that the decision was wrong. 
It’s very difficult to see on what grounds the Mercedes appeal was rejected. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/60807766


----------



## icowden (19 Mar 2022)

Beebo said:


> The FIA report into Abu Dhabi has concluded human error.
> Which is basically an admission that the decision was wrong.
> It’s very difficult to see on what grounds the Mercedes appeal was rejected.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/60807766


It was rejected on the basis that they really wanted another team to win this year...

On the plus side, the new season is looking tasty with a likely 3 way battle between Red Bull, Ferrari and Merc (as soon as they get the car upgraded), with plenty of other teams looking like they might get in the mix.


----------



## Phaeton (19 Mar 2022)

Beebo said:


> The FIA report into Abu Dhabi has concluded human error.
> Which is basically an admission that the decision was wrong.
> It’s very difficult to see on what grounds the Mercedes appeal was rejected.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/60807766


Well the only other conclusion was that it was a FIA sanctioned decision & that should the opportunity arise Mercedes were to be hampered in an effort to make the result more favourable to another team.


----------



## Illaveago (20 Mar 2022)

It will be interesting to see if all these aerodynamic changes have any effect today. What if it has no impact and it remains the same ?


----------



## Bonefish Blues (20 Mar 2022)

Beebo said:


> The FIA report into Abu Dhabi has concluded human error.
> Which is basically an admission that the decision was wrong.
> It’s very difficult to see on what grounds the Mercedes appeal was rejected.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/60807766


It was rejected because, IMHO, some or all of the below:

1. The Stewards, in the employ of the FIA, had no legal training relevant to the matter under dispute, nor any recourse to lawyers when they were needed in the immediate aftermath, so they toed the party line - especially when encouraged to do so by Red Bull, who were admitted to the hearing as an 'Interested Party'.
2. It was wholly obvious there had been the most mahoosive clusterfeckery wrt the admin of the race, and the prospect of trying to unpick it was unpalatable, and I'm sure the Stewards were very aware of this.
3. It was hoped that this would die down in the off season and could be quietly dropped.


----------



## Phaeton (20 Mar 2022)

Illaveago said:


> It will be interesting to see if all these aerodynamic changes have any effect today. What if it has no impact and it remains the same ?


They have created a new world order which is what it was designed to do


----------



## Bonefish Blues (20 Mar 2022)

Phaeton said:


> They have created a new world order which is what it was designed to do


It's a brand new day. Probably involves a change of mind for the human race.

Spotters Badges available


----------



## Illaveago (20 Mar 2022)

I see little Jack H was full of himself on Channel 4 again. I think it is time that they got a few more teams represented .


----------



## Phaeton (20 Mar 2022)

So Jean Todt (ex Ferrari) Stefano Domenicali (ex Ferrari) Ross Brawn (ex Ferrari) have changed the rules & amazingly Ferrari who have been in the wilderness for the past 10 years suddenly come to the front, coincidence or did they know the new rules before anybody else??


----------



## Reynard (20 Mar 2022)

Phaeton said:


> So Jean Todt (ex Ferrari) Stefano Domenicali (ex Ferrari) Ross Brawn (ex Ferrari) have changed the rules & amazingly Ferrari who have been in the wilderness for the past 10 years suddenly come to the front, coincidence or did they know the new rules before anybody else??



Well, the FIA does stand for Ferrari International Assistance...


----------



## Phaeton (20 Mar 2022)

Well that was interesting,


----------



## Illaveago (20 Mar 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Well that was interesting,


What was ?


----------



## figbat (20 Mar 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Well that was interesting,


In a largely good way too.


----------



## derrick (20 Mar 2022)

Well that's Karma.


----------



## Illaveago (20 Mar 2022)

Somebody's not going to be s very happy bunny !


----------



## Phaeton (20 Mar 2022)

Illaveago said:


> Somebody's not going to be s very happy bunny !


I thought I could hear him from my house earlier


----------



## Phaeton (20 Mar 2022)

Just read on skysports that RB are claiming fuel pump issues, I don't believe that, the way Max was complaining about the steering & Checo's was a mechanical that just stopped the engine dead, if it was fuel he'd have coasted to a stop.


----------



## classic33 (20 Mar 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Just read on skysports that RB are claiming fuel pump issues, I don't believe that, the way Max was complaining about the steering & Checo's was a mechanical that just stopped the engine dead, if it was fuel he'd have coasted to a stop.


All those that failed to finish had the same engine and pump.


----------



## dave r (20 Mar 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Just read on skysports that RB are claiming fuel pump issues, I don't believe that, the way Max was complaining about the steering & Checo's was a mechanical that just stopped the engine dead, if it was fuel he'd have coasted to a stop.



According to an article on Crashnet Verstappen had two issues on his car, one self inflicted.
"Verstappen also battled a power steering issue in the closing laps of the race that hampered his performance, prompting a furious outburst over team radio.

Horner explained the problem occurred during Verstappen’s final pit stop.

“We bent a track rod when the car got dropped at the final pit stop and that made the car inconsistent from left to right,” he said".

https://www.crash.net/f1/news/999210/1/what-went-wrong-red-bull-worst-nightmare-double-dnf


----------



## Reynard (20 Mar 2022)

My boys were so sloooooooooooooooooooooooow... 

But am I the only one to get satisfaction out of seeing Kevin Magnussen give Mick Schumacher a real pasting this weekend?


----------



## Illaveago (21 Mar 2022)

I'm still sniggering ! I've never heard little Jack H so quiet before. I wonder why they didn't interview him after the race , he usually has so much to say .


----------



## Phaeton (21 Mar 2022)

Reynard said:


> But am I the only one to get satisfaction out of seeing Kevin Magnussen give Mick Schumacher a real pasting this weekend?


No Magnuussen did really well, he certainly showed Schumacher a clean pair of heels, although I'm not sure why they didn't pull him in for a final stop when everybody else did, they sort of left him to the wolves. 

McLaren I'm not sure I have the words, Zak Brown will be apoplectic in the meetings today, this must be their worst form on 10 years, even their bad years weren't this bad were they?

Ferrari seem to have found something in the engine or the drivetrain, all the cars with their engine have moved forward, what is the engine in the RB this year, is it a real RB engine, or a Honda badged as RB?

George hung on nicely but was being outclassed by Lewis but was the deliberate, they had settled for 5 & 6th before the safety car?


----------



## Illaveago (21 Mar 2022)

The Williams car looked really pretty in all blue . I don't like McLaren's colour scheme as much as last year's car .


----------



## figbat (21 Mar 2022)

Bottas seemed to do his usual reverse off of the grid then get stuck behind Tsunoda for ages, but still showed the Alfa has some pace too. And a pint for Zhou first time out. Russell may have been behind Hamilton but he did a good job of bettering his grid slot - poor guy; finally gets a shot in the big team just as it comes off the rails.


----------



## Beebo (21 Mar 2022)

figbat said:


> Russell may have been behind Hamilton but he did a good job of bettering his grid slot - poor guy; finally gets a shot in the big team just as it comes off the rails.


It’s a bit harsh to declare that Merc have come off the rails. 
They were the 3rd quickest car, and I suspect they will soon be able to compete with the other 2. 
How would he be doing if he was still at Williams?


----------



## Reynard (21 Mar 2022)

Phaeton said:


> No Magnuussen did really well, he certainly showed Schumacher a clean pair of heels, although I'm not sure why they didn't pull him in for a final stop when everybody else did, they sort of left him to the wolves.
> 
> McLaren I'm not sure I have the words, Zak Brown will be apoplectic in the meetings today, this must be their worst form on 10 years, even their bad years weren't this bad were they?
> 
> ...



A RB-badged Honda. Same kind of thing where the old BMW turbo was re-badged as a Megatron. Unofficially official if you see what I mean...

McLaren were pants. Not good to have braking issues on a circuit that's known to eat brakes.

Although we really do need to be careful not to read too much into things after just the one race with the new regs. The circuit in Saudi is very different to Bahrain, so I'm expecting a completely different outcome to this Sunday's race.


----------



## matticus (21 Mar 2022)

One thing I noted about the race ...

If you weren't following the sport over the winter, watching the race you would have no idea there had been significant rule changes since the last race of 2021. No porpoising, no significant increase in drafting, nothing of note.


----------



## glasgowcyclist (21 Mar 2022)

Great to see my team back at the front after so long. The dicing with Verstappen was good to watch, Leclerc certainly has the measure of him.
Then to see Verstappen trundle into the pits to retire, I couldn't stop laughing. And when Perez's car died, meaning a double DNF for Red Bull, I thought my sides would burst. Fantastic!

Good on Hamilton hanging in there too for a decent 3rd spot. I'll bet he was pissing himself as well that RB got nothing this weekend.😂


----------



## Reynard (21 Mar 2022)

matticus said:


> One thing I noted about the race ...
> 
> If you weren't following the sport over the winter, watching the race you would have no idea there had been significant rule changes since the last race of 2021. No porpoising, no significant increase in drafting, nothing of note.



The cars look so different, it was making me go all cross-eyed!

This was the first time I'd actually seen the new cars "in the flesh" - the front ends of the cars were noticeably looser under braking right across the board and seemed less settled generally. You can really see the effect of the venturi from the side-on shots as speed rises and falls.

Overall limitation now seems to be the tyres, not the cars... What the rules giveth with one hand, it taketh away with another...

But as i said in a previous post, you can't make a judgement purely on the outcome of a single race.

Oh, and as an aside, it's a general rule of thumb that the driver who wins the first race of the year never goes on to win that year's world championship. So your 50p bets on Leclerc are wasted, you might as well have been better off buying a creme egg.


----------



## Phaeton (21 Mar 2022)

glasgowcyclist said:


> The dicing with Verstappen was good to watch,


Was it my imagination or was Max somewhat less desperate in his attempts, it was good honest fair racing which we know he can do (but chooses not to), none of the suicide we're both going to crash if you don't let me through like we had last year. Now the monkey of not winning the world championship is off his back is he prepared to settle down, has somebody (FIA) had words about his on track conduct, or is he simply following the new rules, although they are still very ambiguous


----------



## icowden (21 Mar 2022)

matticus said:


> If you weren't following the sport over the winter, watching the race you would have no idea there had been significant rule changes since the last race of 2021. No porpoising, no significant increase in drafting, nothing of note.


Were you watching the same race? The Mercedes was porpoising badly into the corners - that's why Lewis couldn't take Perez, and why the Mercedes is so far off the pace. The cars that have it sorted are the Ferraris and Red Bulls.

There wasn't supposed to be an increase in drafting - in fact the reverse which many have suggested may be negating the benefits of being able to follow more closely. Personally I think the fact that 3 teams were in the mix and the fact that you had Haas and Alpha not far off the Mercedes shows that there have been some big changes.

The biggest reported issue is that Pirelli's tyres are pants - drivers not happy with them and they have failed to reduce degradation (at least at this race).

Nice bit of Karma coming to bite Red Bull. Anyone else notice the massive cheer from the stadium when the Red Bulls broke down. Gives you some idea of their popularity after last year...


----------



## Bonefish Blues (21 Mar 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Was it my imagination or was Max somewhat less desperate in his attempts, it was good honest fair racing which we know he can do (but chooses not to), none of the suicide we're both going to crash if you don't let me through like we had last year. *Now the monkey of not winning the world championship is off his back* is he prepared to settle down, has somebody (FIA) had words about his on track conduct, or is he simply following the new rules, although they are still very ambiguous


Listening to his interview and his reported comments I very much think it isn't.


----------



## matticus (21 Mar 2022)

icowden said:


> There wasn't supposed to be an *increase in drafting* - in fact the reverse which many have suggested may be negating the benefits of being *able to follow more closely*


_mea culpa _- I meant "following closely". (in bike racing the two phenomena are pretty much the same!)


----------



## matticus (21 Mar 2022)

icowden said:


> Were you watching the same race?


well yes and no .... I was a bit vague there: I actually only watched a few minutes of Highlights, but did hear the whole thing on R5.
I promise you; although the qualifying talk was 90% about stuff around rule changes, new car designs not working, this driver struggling with new team-mate blah blah .. during the RACE I heard nothing different to last year. (and certainly no porpoise talk!)

Just a subjective analysis.


----------



## glasgowcyclist (21 Mar 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Was it my imagination or was Max somewhat less desperate in his attempts,




Maybe just a little and perhaps because it's only the first of many races. However, Mark Webber remarked on Verstappen still using his dive from a very long way back and expecting the driver ahead to make way - or else. Leclerc is less compliant than Hamilton and made that clear to Mr V yesterday. Should make for some fireworks ahead.


----------



## glasgowcyclist (21 Mar 2022)

classic33 said:


> All those that failed to finish had the same engine and pump.



Were they the only ones with that engine and pump?


----------



## classic33 (21 Mar 2022)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Were they the only ones with that engine and pump?


Most of the teams have the same pump. However there were three teams with the same engine. Three of those cars failed to finish.


----------



## icowden (21 Mar 2022)

matticus said:


> well yes and no .... I was a bit vague there: I actually only watched a few minutes of Highlights, but did hear the whole thing on R5.
> I promise you; although the qualifying talk was 90% about stuff around rule changes, new car designs not working, this driver struggling with new team-mate blah blah .. during the RACE I heard nothing different to last year. (and certainly no porpoise talk!)
> 
> Just a subjective analysis.


Fair enough. Actually during qualifying porpoising did seem to be less of a problem (or at least wasn't mentioned at all). Certainly in the main race it was mentioned a few times on Sky, particularly when Lewis was trying to get past Perez.

I think the Jury is still out on whether the changes will make better racing. Certainly if the tyres continue to be shoot then the changes are a bit moot - it's uncertain whether the tyre problems are specific to Bahrain.


----------



## Reynard (21 Mar 2022)

Bahrain is known for chewing tyres, so let's wait and see. This weekend's race should give us a clearer picture.

Regarding the Red Bull & Alpha Tauri - makes me wonder whether in the search for outright speed, they might have compromised on engine reliability. It may be fixable, but if it's a more fundamental issue on the engineering side, that could pose a problem. Especially with limited components available, they could rack up serious grid penalties later in the season.

The second rule of motor racing - to finish first, first you must finish... It's not always the fastest car and driver that wins the WC at the end of the year, it's the one who is the most consistent. Keke Rosberg's win in 1982 is the classic case-in-point there.


----------



## icowden (21 Mar 2022)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Maybe just a little and perhaps because it's only the first of many races. However, Mark Webber remarked on Verstappen still using his dive from a very long way back and expecting the driver ahead to make way - or else. Leclerc is less compliant than Hamilton and made that clear to Mr V yesterday. Should make for some fireworks ahead.


Interestingly the drivers were given new driving standards to absorb:-

https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/60815007.amp

They at least suggest that Max won't be getting away with forcing people off the track this year. It'll be interesting to see how often he is put on the naughty step.


----------



## Phaeton (21 Mar 2022)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Were they the only ones with that engine and pump?


No it's a regulated part, all cars have to use it


----------



## Jody (21 Mar 2022)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Should make for some fireworks ahead.



I'm hoping so given their run ins with each other when younger and in lower formula


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (21 Mar 2022)




----------



## icowden (21 Mar 2022)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Maybe just a little and perhaps because it's only the first of many races. However, Mark Webber remarked on Verstappen still using his dive from a very long way back and expecting the driver ahead to make way - or else. Leclerc is less compliant than Hamilton and made that clear to Mr V yesterday. Should make for some fireworks ahead.


Less compliant, or less experienced at playing the long game. Better to finish second than not at all and all that...


----------



## Phaeton (21 Mar 2022)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> View attachment 636344


Not sure I agree with that regarding Ricciardo, I don't think he had a choice but to leave Red Bull, they had already said that they were putting the whole team behind Max, so by that token they were never going to let him win the championship, so he had to go somewhere. His jump to McLaren based on their 2019 season was an obvious choice, however last years form was very surprising, clearly something has got inside his head.


----------



## Reynard (21 Mar 2022)

Just an interesting little aside I saw on motorsport.com earlier - the four fastest cars by some margin through the speed trap were the two Red Bulls and the two Alpha Tauris. Coincidence? 

As I speculated upthread, is it possible that they tweaked something to the limits of tolerance in order to squeeze extra speed out of the cars?


----------



## Beebo (25 Mar 2022)

There are worrying reports of a potential attack close to the Saudi GP circuit. Smoke can be seen blowing across the track.


----------



## Jody (25 Mar 2022)

Just had a read. Apparently a missile attack from Yemen. 

Not sure I'd want to race if I was in there position.


----------



## Illaveago (25 Mar 2022)

Mercedes used spare electrical capacity to spin up their turbo on their previous engine . I'm wondering if they had to give it up for this year's rules?


----------



## Phaeton (25 Mar 2022)

I'm wondering how many races before RB make a complaint about the Ferrari engine


----------



## Jody (25 Mar 2022)

Illaveago said:


> Mercedes used spare electrical capacity to spin up their turbo on their previous engine . I'm wondering if they had to give it up for this year's rules?



Isn't the turbo directly linked to the MGU-H?

I don't think there has been any restriction on PU performance other than changing to run more ethanol.


----------



## classic33 (25 Mar 2022)

Beebo said:


> There are worrying reports of a potential attack close to the Saudi GP circuit. Smoke can be seen blowing across the track.


_"Saudi Arabian Grand Prix to continue as planned after attack at oil depot near Jeddah circuit"_

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/1...-at-jeddah-oil-depot-ahead-of-f1-race-weekend


----------



## icowden (25 Mar 2022)

Illaveago said:


> Mercedes used spare electrical capacity to spin up their turbo on their previous engine . I'm wondering if they had to give it up for this year's rules?


I think it's more that Ferrari have redeveloped their illegal engine now, and Mercedes have messed up on their development seemingly, and are bouncing everywhere.


----------



## Beebo (26 Mar 2022)

icowden said:


> I think it's more that Ferrari have redeveloped their illegal engine now, and Mercedes have messed up on their development seemingly, and are bouncing everywhere.


I heard rumours about Ferrari’s special petrol, which is better than everyone else’s.


----------



## Illaveago (26 Mar 2022)

Beebo said:


> I heard rumours about Ferrari’s special petrol, which is better than everyone else’s.


Does it burn engine oil ?


----------



## dave r (26 Mar 2022)

Beebo said:


> I heard rumours about Ferrari’s special petrol, which is better than everyone else’s.


I've heard those rumours as well, the question is , is it legal?


----------



## Reynard (26 Mar 2022)

I heard it mentioned on the radio commentary last week.

Not sure what's going on here, because I'm sure the rules state that pump fuel must be used. Or at least they did...

But last time we went through this with Ferrari, the FIA were turning a blind eye to them cooling their fuel to get more into the tank. Which is why they were able to run at a higher fuel flow rate than everyone else. It's as much of a fix as Abu Dhabi last season in a way. Ferrari being successful lines their pockets.

Call me skeptical or what...


----------



## FishFright (26 Mar 2022)

dave r said:


> I've heard those rumours as well, the question is , is it legal?



According to Red Bull it isn't illegal but Shell have just done a better job. 

Petronas on the other hand may not doing be so great a job. FP3 times for Mercedes powered cars not looking good .


----------



## Illaveago (26 Mar 2022)

The qualifying seemed very odd ! The Mercedes engine seems to be down on power compared to the rest. Also Verstappen made an interesting comment in that the same compound of tyres behaved differently from one another . I think it was his second set of soft tyres were slippery . If there is an inconsistency in the quality of the tyres it will make setting up a car difficult.


----------



## Reynard (26 Mar 2022)

I think by the end of this season, we're going to have an additional volume to The Encyclopedia of Racing Drivers' Excuses... 

N.B. I didn't coin that phrase, but a friend who is a former racing driver did.


----------



## Jody (26 Mar 2022)

Massive shunt from Mick Schumacher.

You've got to wonder whether the new cars led to that. You could see the rear of the car bouncing as he was coming out of the left hander and he lost grip which sent him over the kerb.


----------



## Jody (26 Mar 2022)

Illaveago said:


> The qualifying seemed very odd ! The Mercedes engine seems to be down on power compared to the rest. Also Verstappen made an interesting comment in that the same compound of tyres behaved differently from one another . I think it was his second set of soft tyres were slippery . If there is an inconsistency in the quality of the tyres it will make setting up a car difficult.



With engines and fuel devolpement frozen it's not looking good for them.


----------



## Reynard (26 Mar 2022)

Jody said:


> Massive shunt from Mick Schumacher.
> 
> You've got to wonder whether the new cars led to that. You could see the rear of the car bouncing as he was coming out of the left hander and he lost grip which sent him over the kerb.



That's the downside of generating downforce with a venturi. As soon as you break that suction, there's virtually no grip at all. Was one of the reasons ground effect cars were banned for the '83 season.

Drivers will have to learn that you can't bounce these cars off the kerbs.


----------



## Jody (26 Mar 2022)

Wonder if they'll do any in depth analysis on sky or not draw too much attention to it being the second race of the new regulations?

Imagine going through eau rouge or some of the other high speed corners with the current porpoising.

Although eau rouge and a few other corners have now been redesigned slightly.


----------



## dave r (27 Mar 2022)

Reynard said:


> That's the downside of generating downforce with a venturi. As soon as you break that suction, there's virtually no grip at all. Was one of the reasons ground effect cars were banned for the '83 season.
> 
> Drivers will have to learn that you can't bounce these cars off the kerbs.



I thought he'd dropped a wheel behind the raised kerb and beached it and that had started the accident.


----------



## Beebo (27 Mar 2022)

dave r said:


> I thought he'd dropped a wheel behind the raised kerb and beached it and that had started the accident.


But if he did that in last year’s car he would have had more chance of recovering the situation. Now the car loses all downforce as soon as it jumps the kerb.


----------



## Reynard (27 Mar 2022)

Beebo said:


> But if he did that in last year’s car he would have had more chance of recovering the situation. Now the car loses all downforce as soon as it jumps the kerb.



Exactly.

Because the generation of downforce now relies almost completely on clean and uninterrupted airflow under the car. Disrupt that, and the car is heading off into the scenery.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (27 Mar 2022)

They will have to drive more precisely.

Previous gens have allowed ridiculous liberties to be taken over kerbs, I think - cf the images of F1 cars a foot or so in the air.


----------



## Reynard (27 Mar 2022)

That's racing drivers, though - give them an inch and they'll take a mile. Changes to the circuits have, in a way, encouraged that in recent years, namely that there's not much of a penalty if you make a mistake. Back in the day, get it wrong, and you'd be stuck in the kitty litter. Now it's all tarmac run-offs. They are safer (mostly) but with the jeopardy of gravel traps taken away, it definitely has changed the drivers' mindsets.

In a kind of backwards way, these ground effect cars have re-introduced that element of jeopardy. Which the drivers will have to learn to respect. Although having felt the personal impact that a fatal motor racing accident brings, I really do not like seeing incidents like we had yesterday on a regular basis.

But this is something we've seen time and again every time the regulations change drastically. Some drivers are quick to adapt, others do not. This new generation of car will definitely reward drivers with a smoother, more progressive way of driving, than those who like to grab a car by the short and curlies and haul it kicking and screaming around the circuit.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (27 Mar 2022)

Agree. The best will continue to be the best.

I was always more of a Prost than a Mansell kind of guy, iyswim.


----------



## Phaeton (27 Mar 2022)

Reynard said:


> That's racing drivers, though - give them an inch and they'll take a mile. Changes to the circuits have, in a way, encouraged that in recent years, namely that there's not much of a penalty if you make a mistake. Back in the day, get it wrong, and you'd be stuck in the kitty litter. Now it's all tarmac run-offs. They are safer (mostly) but with the jeopardy of gravel traps taken away, it definitely has changed the drivers' mindsets.


Maybe they need not only a white line but a red line, if the car crosses the red line with all 4 wheels it's classed as an 'Off road excursion' and the driver gets a 5 second penalty, brings back the danger of the kitty litter


----------



## Reynard (27 Mar 2022)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Agree. The best will continue to be the best.
> 
> I was always more of a Prost than a Mansell kind of guy, iyswim.



Me too. And I was on the Prost side of the whole Prost v Senna debate as well. Although that was more along the lines of the enemy of my enemy... 

Mansellmania entirely passed me by.

Although a teenage girl's perspective involves other, erm, factors.


----------



## Reynard (27 Mar 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Maybe they need not only a white line but a red line, if the car crosses the red line with all 4 wheels it's classed as an 'Off road excursion' and the driver gets a 5 second penalty, brings back the danger of the kitty litter



This is what gets me... Touring cars use pressure plates to judge track limits, and go over the same plate three times, and it's a time penalty. No need to use a human "judge of fact" to decide.

So if touring cars can do it, why can't F1?

Although the sceptic in me sees that some drivers in F1 appear to be more equal than others, rather than everybody being absolutely equal when it comes to the BTCC's pressure plates.


----------



## Reynard (27 Mar 2022)

There's a ginger cat purr-ambulating on the circuit. Hope they catch him before lights out. (Ginger & white entire male - photo on the BBC text feed.)

Looks like we'll be two cars DNS. Mick Schumacher in the Haas and Yuki Tsunoda in the Alpha Tauri.


----------



## figbat (27 Mar 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Maybe they need not only a white line but a red line, if the car crosses the red line with all 4 wheels it's classed as an 'Off road excursion' and the driver gets a 5 second penalty, brings back the danger of the kitty litter


But that’s what the white line is supposed to be for - however they start talking about which corners are being monitored and whether it’s the kerb or the line and whether the driver threw a six to start and only if Mercury is in ascendance. Brundle says the same thing - the while line demarcates the track, so penalise any unforced excursions beyond it.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (27 Mar 2022)

F1's suffered badly (as we know, not wanting to open up _that_ debate again, mind!) from ambiguity in the rules. FGS let's get it clear, FIA!


----------



## AndyRM (27 Mar 2022)

I'm listening to the F1 today, which I don't particularly follow these days, but I'm still vaguely interested.

Could someone who knows more about this explain why Mercedes seem to have fallen off a cliff?


----------



## SpokeyDokey (27 Mar 2022)

Really enjoyed this today - well done Max!


----------



## Phaeton (27 Mar 2022)

AndyRM said:


> Could someone who knows more about this explain why Mercedes seem to have fallen off a cliff?


Not really not even Mercedes, if you could I'm sure they would pay you millions. They've taken a big chance in their aero package & currently it's not paying off, also looking at the engines it could well be there eased off the development but Ferrari, RB/Honda & Renault didn't, but there is talk about different fuels being used

Edit:- LOL "there is talk about different fields being used" Oh dear proof read before posting


----------



## Salad Dodger (27 Mar 2022)

figbat said:


> But that’s what the white line is supposed to be for - however they start talking about which corners are being monitored and whether it’s the kerb or the line and whether the driver threw a six to start and only if Mercury is in ascendance. Brundle says the same thing - the while line demarcates the track, so penalise any unforced excursions beyond it.


But in my world, putting ONE wheel over the white line and continuing should incur a penalty. To say that all FOUR wheels have to go past the white line before a car is " off' just means that the track is now three quarters of a car wider than the white line. I find that ridiculous. And drivers have to be observed breaking the rules, or else they have got away with it. Never mind the arguments about whether three nanometers of the car was still in contact with the white line so no penalty us due.....
That is not satisfactory to me. Likewise, getting THREE "lives" on the run off areas in BTCC.
I would prefer corners to be lined with large kerbs, both sides of the track, so anyone going over one risks damaging the car and perhaps thus being forced out of the race. Drivers would have to come to terms with keeping their cars in the black stuff, and staying off the other stuff....

Rant over. Sorry about that .....


----------



## Reynard (27 Mar 2022)

Salad Dodger said:


> I would prefer corners to be lined with large kerbs, both sides of the track, so anyone going over one risks damaging the car and perhaps thus being forced out of the race. Drivers would have to come to terms with keeping their cars in the black stuff, and staying off the other stuff....



The downside of that is that a very expensive sport then suddenly becomes a lot more expensive. Which then would mean smaller grids and not much actual racing going on. There is nothing worse in the world than watching half a dozen cars simply going around in circles for an hour. As sometimes does happen in club racing. It's not fun for the spectators.

On the other hand, there are always the short ovals, but then those cars are built to take a few good hits...


----------



## Jenkins (27 Mar 2022)

Salad Dodger said:


> But in my world, *putting ONE wheel over the white line and continuing should incur a penalty*. To say that all FOUR wheels have to go past the white line before a car is " off' just means that the track is now three quarters of a car wider than the white line. I find that ridiculous. And drivers have to be observed breaking the rules, or else they have got away with it. Never mind the arguments about whether three nanometers of the car was still in contact with the white line so no penalty us due.....
> That is not satisfactory to me. Likewise, getting THREE "lives" on the run off areas in BTCC.
> I would prefer corners to be lined with large kerbs, both sides of the track, so anyone going over one risks damaging the car and perhaps thus being forced out of the race. Drivers would have to come to terms with keeping their cars in the black stuff, and staying off the other stuff....
> 
> Rant over. Sorry about that .....


This is what the MSA in the UK have decreed and is why Johnathan Palmer has put the pressure sensors on all the MSV circuits. Unfortunately the FIA have decreed that only one wheel need to be within the white line to be considered as still on the circuit so they can't be used elsewhere so rely on GPS (F1) or marshals reports on other FIA sanctioned events. 

As much as you'd like larger kerbs, don't forget that bikes race on the same circuits.


----------



## icowden (27 Mar 2022)

AndyRM said:


> Could someone who knows more about this explain why Mercedes seem to have fallen off a cliff?



I'm not sure it's entirely off a cliff. Notwithstanding Hamilton's difficulties in qualifying, Mercedes are currently competing at the top but behind Red Bull and Ferrari. They are pretty consistently ahead of the other teams but not in their usual leading position. Toto reckoned it would be at least 4 races before they were able to introduce something to possibly improve their position. All of the teams will be working week in week out to try and adjust the cars to improve their performance.

What is notable is that all of the Ferrari powered cars seem to have improved performance.


----------



## icowden (27 Mar 2022)

Don't know about anyone else but I thought today's race was excellent again. Drivers seemed to be able to follow really closely and I think the new cars work a lot better on the street circuit in terms of overtaking and close following. Definitely more action packed than usual.


----------



## SpokeyDokey (27 Mar 2022)

icowden said:


> Don't know about anyone else but I thought today's race was excellent again. Drivers seemed to be able to follow really closely and I think the new cars work a lot better on the street circuit in terms of overtaking and close following. Definitely more action packed than usual.



Yes, it was an excellent race.

Not much keen on the closed in feel of the circuit but it made for a good technical challenge.

Good close quarter racing and not just at the front.

Will be interesting to see how the self-policing unfair advantage give the place back rule pans out as the season unscrolls.


----------



## figbat (28 Mar 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Yes, it was an excellent race.
> 
> Not much keen on the closed in feel of the circuit but it made for a good technical challenge.
> 
> ...


Yes and, as Jenson said in Sky commentary, unlike before when a driver is passed they are now able to stay close and re-pass, making for the closer racing overall. The DRS line shenanigans were quite amusing though, with Max taking three attempts to work out how to play it!


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (28 Mar 2022)

With the cars able to get closer and slipstream now, do we really need DRS zones?


----------



## figbat (28 Mar 2022)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> With the cars able to get closer and slipstream now, do we really need DRS zones?


The same changes that have enabled closer following, have also reduced the slipstream effect. I am still not a fan of DRS as an artificial trump card, but it appears to work better with the new aero designs.


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (28 Mar 2022)

figbat said:


> The same changes that have enabled closer following, have also reduced the slipstream effect. I am still not a fan of DRS as an artificial trump card, but it appears to work better with the new aero designs.


Even better then to give a real contest, or do the Powers That Be want to see lots of overtaking even if it's artificially induced?


----------



## Phaeton (28 Mar 2022)

figbat said:


> Yes and, as Jenson said in Sky commentary,


He's another thumbs down from me, he's not a Brundle replacement, along with Chandhok, Davidson, DeRiesta & don't mention Herbert although he at least has the right name, he's a right herbert, they need to keep searching, do we know why Brundle didn't attend?


----------



## icowden (28 Mar 2022)

Phaeton said:


> He's another thumbs down from me, he's not a Brundle replacement, along with Chandhok, Davidson, DeRiesta & don't mention Herbert although he at least has the right name, he's a right herbert, they need to keep searching, do we know why Brundle didn't attend?


I prefer Jenson to Damon Hill if we have to make a choice...


----------



## Phaeton (28 Mar 2022)

icowden said:


> I prefer Jenson to Damon Hill if we have to make a choice...


True, but there must be somebody better


----------



## Beebo (28 Mar 2022)

figbat said:


> The same changes that have enabled closer following, have also reduced the slipstream effect. I am still not a fan of DRS as an artificial trump card, but it appears to work better with the new aero designs.


Something needs to change. 
We can’t have a system now where drivers are slowing down and gaming the DRS. That wasn’t what it was designed for.


----------



## Jody (28 Mar 2022)

Beebo said:


> Something needs to change.
> We can’t have a system now where drivers are slowing down and gaming the DRS. That wasn’t what it was designed for.



At least Charles didn't stuff Max into the back of him like the Lewis incident last year. 

Not sure how they can get round people playing silly beggars with the DRS activation.


----------



## matticus (28 Mar 2022)

Jody said:


> Not sure how they can get round people playing silly beggars with the DRS activation.


I didn't see yesterday's race - how are drivers doing this? [I'm probably missing something vv obvious ... ]


----------



## Phaeton (28 Mar 2022)

I got the impression on at least one occasion Leclerc slows to get Max in front, but it didn't quite work, but then he managed to accelerate as Max was still braking to gain the advantage.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (28 Mar 2022)

matticus said:


> I didn't see yesterday's race - how are drivers doing this? [I'm probably missing something vv obvious ... ]


DRS is now such a massive advantage that the driver who leads across the DRS timing point is actually at a major disadvantage, hence the messing around doing the slow driving race.


----------



## matticus (28 Mar 2022)

Bonefish Blues said:


> DRS is now such a massive advantage that the driver who leads across the DRS timing point is actually at a major disadvantage, hence the messing around doing the slow driving race.


So trying to "trick" someone into overtaking before the DRS point (knowing that you'll end up in front a couple of corners later)? I can see how that might become a tactic.


----------



## Illaveago (28 Mar 2022)

I thought that the safety car bit was a bit of a farce ! Having to ring up somebody in Switzerland who might be fast asleep to tell them if it is a full safety car or a make believe one ! 
Just hope that he doesn't have to view it on Channel 4 highlights as there might be more than a satellite delay !


----------



## Phaeton (28 Mar 2022)

Illaveago said:


> I thought that the safety car bit was a bit of a farce ! Having to ring up somebody in Switzerland who might be fast asleep to tell them if it is a full safety car or a make believe one !
> Just hope that he doesn't have to view it on Channel 4 highlights as there might be more than a satellite delay !


They are all meant to keep to a delta between points, yet Max managed to drop back over 3 seconds from 1.5 to 4.5 then push forward in the lap before the virtual SC went off so his tyres were slightly warmer than Leclerc's, couple of points why was he allowed to do that & why wasn't Sainz's all over him if he dropped back 3 seconds, is it he (Max) knows how to play all the angles & Sainz isn't that good?


----------



## dave r (28 Mar 2022)

Jody said:


> Not sure how they can get round people playing silly beggars with the DRS activation.



Do we need to stop them doing that? It just adds to the fun.


----------



## Beebo (28 Mar 2022)

dave r said:


> Do we need to stop them doing that? It just adds to the fun.


It’s manufactured excitement that takes it away from straight racing. 
We might as well give them mariokart boost-ups. 
I understood the DRS requirements with the old cars as a far slower car could hold up a whole line of other much faster cars. And getting within a second of the car in front was actually quite hard. Now the cars are specifically designed to run within a second of each other.


----------



## Jody (28 Mar 2022)

dave r said:


> Do we need to stop them doing that? It just adds to the fun.



Admittedly good fun, but somewhat dangerous if the lead man tries to force you round by hitting the brakes. As Beebo said, it's just not racing.


----------



## Phaeton (28 Mar 2022)

Jody said:


> Admittedly good fun, but somewhat dangerous if the lead man tries to force you round by hitting the brakes. As Beebo said, it's just not racing.


But is making them use tyres that wear out in X laps, remember they change the formula each race, also having them change tyres at all, Hamilton looked like he could have done the full race on a single set. 



> Without going to what I think is my limit. I always say that my ideal is to get pole with the minimum effort, and to win the race at the slowest speed possible.
> 
> Alain Prost



So maybe what a racer wants to do & what we want to see is different, I used to like F1 Stock cars, there was only 1 goal, flat out start to finish & ***k anybody who got in the way.


----------



## dave r (28 Mar 2022)

Beebo said:


> It’s manufactured excitement that takes it away from straight racing.
> We might as well give them mariokart boost-ups.
> I understood the DRS requirements with the old cars as a far slower car could hold up a whole line of other much faster cars. And getting within a second of the car in front was actually quite hard. Now the cars are specifically designed to run within a second of each other.



The whole circus is just manufactured excitement, this just adds to it, I'm all for it.


----------



## icowden (28 Mar 2022)

Phaeton said:


> But is making them use tyres that wear out in X laps, remember they change the formula each race, also having them change tyres at all, Hamilton looked like he could have done the full race on a single set.


The idea was that the tyres should allow proper racing without management this year. I'm not sure they have achieved that. There is also an issue that bit LeClerc whereby once the tyres have been warmed up then cooled behind a safety car, it's much harder to warm them back up again. Red Bull seem to be very good at doing that bit - hence Max zoomed past.


----------



## 13 rider (28 Mar 2022)

What are people's thought about red bull telling Perez to give the place back only after the restart ,Surely they gained an advantage by Max having a rear gunner ,Surely it's not for the teams to decide when a place is given back but the race stewards 
Also the positioning of the safety car line and pit exit are very badly positions but with GPS surely it's a known fact who was in front at that point


----------



## Illaveago (28 Mar 2022)

13 rider said:


> What are people's thought about red bull telling Perez to give the place back only after the restart ,Surely they gained an advantage by Max having a rear gunner ,Surely it's not for the teams to decide when a place is given back but the race stewards
> Also the positioning of the safety car line and pit exit are very badly positions but with GPS surely it's a known fact who was in front at that point


Red Bull seem to have too much influence in the race these days .


----------



## icowden (28 Mar 2022)

13 rider said:


> What are people's thought about red bull telling Perez to give the place back only after the restart ,Surely they gained an advantage by Max having a rear gunner ,Surely it's not for the teams to decide when a place is given back but the race stewards


They wanted to avoid a penalty. Of course it is the stewards place to decide, but the stewards decision is going to come with a penalty. If however you give back the place before they award a penalty and tell you to give the place back, you are in a better position. RB clearly decided that there was a high risk of a penalty and having to give back the place. They can't moan to Masi this year or try to intimidate the stewards, so they did the pragmatic thing and gave the place back in the hope of avoiding a penalty - which worked.


----------



## classic33 (28 Mar 2022)

13 rider said:


> What are people's thought about red bull telling Perez to give the place back only after the restart ,Surely they gained an advantage by Max having a rear gunner ,Surely it's not for the teams to decide when a place is given back but the race stewards
> Also the positioning of the safety car line and pit exit are very badly positions but with GPS surely it's a known fact who was in front at that point


If the place had been given back behind the safety car, it would have been classed as overtaking/passing the car in front of you, which isn't allowed. Result would have been an automatic penalty for the driver doing the overtaking.

Now its up to the teams, not the race stewards to tell their drivers to hand the place back. 

Alpine did the same with their two drivers.


----------



## Phaeton (28 Mar 2022)

13 rider said:


> What are people's thought about red bull telling Perez to give the place back only after the restart ,Surely they gained an advantage by Max having a rear gunner ,Surely it's not for the teams to decide when a place is given back but the race stewards
> Also the positioning of the safety car line and pit exit are very badly positions but with GPS surely it's a known fact who was in front at that point


You're not allowed to overtake under a Yellow so he couldn't let Sainz through whilst they were in VSC mode, however they have also changed the rules in that they are letting the teams decide to give the place back, then penalise them more if they don't.


----------



## SpokeyDokey (28 Mar 2022)

F1 - a brilliant but over-complicated sport. 😁


----------



## Reynard (28 Mar 2022)

icowden said:


> I prefer Jenson to Damon Hill if we have to make a choice...



Anyone is preferable to Damon Hill...


----------



## Reynard (28 Mar 2022)

Beebo said:


> Something needs to change.
> We can’t have a system now where drivers are slowing down and gaming the DRS. That wasn’t what it was designed for.



Mmmm, yes... It's the classic give and inch and take a mile... It doesn't seem to be too much of an issue at other circuits, only this one. But IMHO this does need to be sorted before someone causes a serious pile-up.

It's enough that there's another car or two following reasonably closely behind who themselves can't stop in time as a result.


----------



## Phaeton (28 Mar 2022)

Reynard said:


> It doesn't seem to be too much of an issue at other circuits, only this one.


Yet, we don't want to see them lifting three quarts around Curva Parabolica (Monza) or Eau Rouge (Spa)


----------



## figbat (28 Mar 2022)

At this circuit there is a long DRS zone into that corner, where there is another DRS detection zone for the following straight. This is relatively unusual and drives these shenanigans, as seen last year with the rear-ending incident. I was a bit surprised that Max hadn’t worked it out fully until his third attempt at it.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (28 Mar 2022)

I think Max isn't as bright as some of his peers, being kind.


----------



## Reynard (28 Mar 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Yet, we don't want to see them lifting three quarts around Curva Parabolica (Monza) or Eau Rouge (Spa)



True...

But if you lift three quarters the way round those, you'll simply get hung out to dry, as you really need the momentum. Especially at Spa, with the massive changes in gradient.


----------



## Reynard (28 Mar 2022)

Bonefish Blues said:


> I think Max isn't as bright as some of his peers, being kind.



You've just said what I didn't want to... 

Max is blindingly quick, but lacks a racing brain.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (28 Mar 2022)

Reynard said:


> True...
> 
> But if you lift three quarters the way round those, you'll simply get hung out to dry, as you really need the momentum. Especially at Spa, with the massive changes in gradient.


If you lift at E-R, you'll end up in the shrubbery!


----------



## figbat (28 Mar 2022)

Reynard said:


> You've just said what I didn't want to...
> 
> Max is blindingly quick, but lacks a racing brain.


You could almost see his brain working on the second incident...

_"YAY!! Look at me!! I'm overtakin..... OH, WAIT, I remember now from the last lap, I don't want to overtake here"._


----------



## Jody (28 Mar 2022)

Bonefish Blues said:


> If you lift at E-R, you'll end up in the shrubbery!



A sssshhhhhhhhhhwubbbewy?


----------



## Bonefish Blues (28 Mar 2022)

Yes, gwubbing awound.


----------



## FishFright (28 Mar 2022)

Salad Dodger said:


> But in my world, putting ONE wheel over the white line and continuing should incur a penalty. To say that all FOUR wheels have to go past the white line before a car is " off' just means that the track is now three quarters of a car wider than the white line. I find that ridiculous. And drivers have to be observed breaking the rules, or else they have got away with it. Never mind the arguments about whether three nanometers of the car was still in contact with the white line so no penalty us due.....
> That is not satisfactory to me. Likewise, getting THREE "lives" on the run off areas in BTCC.
> I would prefer corners to be lined with large kerbs, both sides of the track, so anyone going over one risks damaging the car and perhaps thus being forced out of the race. Drivers would have to come to terms with keeping their cars in the black stuff, and staying off the other stuff....
> 
> Rant over. Sorry about that .....



I was right with you up to large kerbs because sometimes crossing the line isn't voluntary.


----------



## Alex321 (28 Mar 2022)

Salad Dodger said:


> But in my world, putting ONE wheel over the white line and continuing should incur a penalty. To say that all FOUR wheels have to go past the white line before a car is " off' just means that the track is now three quarters of a car wider than the white line. I find that ridiculous. And drivers have to be observed breaking the rules, or else they have got away with it. Never mind the arguments about whether three nanometers of the car was still in contact with the white line so no penalty us due.....
> That is not satisfactory to me. Likewise, getting THREE "lives" on the run off areas in BTCC.
> I would prefer corners to be lined with large kerbs, both sides of the track, so anyone going over one risks damaging the car and perhaps thus being forced out of the race. Drivers would have to come to terms with keeping their cars in the black stuff, and staying off the other stuff....
> 
> Rant over. Sorry about that .....


It really doesn't matter whether is it "any of the car over" or "all of the car over", so long as the rule is clear, and it is consistently enforced.

Putting large kerbs as you suggest would be much too dangerous. Most cases where cars go outside the track limits are down to mistakes, not deliberately choosing to do so, and large kerbs wouldn't prevent mistakes, just make the consequences much more severe.


----------



## figbat (28 Mar 2022)

Why have kerbs at all? Why not lose the kerbs completely and just have white lines and clear infringement rules?


----------



## Reynard (28 Mar 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Most cases where cars go outside the track limits are down to mistakes, not deliberately choosing to do so, and large kerbs wouldn't prevent mistakes, just make the consequences much more severe.



Errr, no.

By deliberately taking a wider line, you "flatten" the angle of the corner and ergo you can carry more speed through it.

Which is why racing drivers do it.


----------



## Illaveago (28 Mar 2022)

figbat said:


> Why have kerbs at all? Why not lose the kerbs completely and just have white lines and clear infringement rules?


Land mines !


----------



## glasgowcyclist (28 Mar 2022)

A cat claw? 

https://www.eta.co.uk/2018/01/10/ca...gerous-pavement-parking-by-bursting-car-tyre/







Stick one far enough inside the apex to allow reasonable kerb use but deter corner cutting.


----------



## derrick (28 Mar 2022)

Bring back the sand.


----------



## icowden (28 Mar 2022)

I think it's as someone mentioned previously. Just have a rule that wheels are not allowed over the white line else a penalty *may* be imposed if a driver gains advantage by so doing. That leaves it flexible enough that the stewards can deliberate over a genuine racing pass where a small liberty is unavoidable and someone deliberately taking advantage.

There were some qually laps where the commentators were quite surprised that times were allowed to stand as track limits had been exceeded.


----------



## Alex321 (28 Mar 2022)

Reynard said:


> Errr, no.
> 
> By deliberately taking a wider line, you "flatten" the angle of the corner and ergo you can carry more speed through it.
> 
> Which is why racing drivers do it.


So you are saying that racing drivers deliberately break the rules?

I was under the impression they normally try to stay within the rules. And if they do, then what I said is correct.


----------



## Reynard (28 Mar 2022)

Alex321 said:


> So you are saying that racing drivers deliberately break the rules?
> 
> I was under the impression they normally try to stay within the rules. And if they do, then what I said is correct.



Yes. They *will* push the boundaries up to - and beyond. It's the nature of the beast.

I spent well over a decade in the sport - both on the engineering and media side. Umm, and some dating of racing drivers might have also happened in that time. Racing drivers are definitely not innocent little fairies.

Just chatting on messenger with an ex-driver friend of mine. He says it's all about not getting caught. I won't say what erm, interesting things he did to his car, (that you couldn't see without stripping things down), but everyone was at it. And this is club racing, not any of the larger national series.


----------



## figbat (29 Mar 2022)

We have seen the blatant pushing beyond the 'rules' before - for example if a corner is not being penalised for track limits then drivers are acknowledging this and taking advantage themselves. Or they use the "three strikes" approach as an allocation rather than a threat, using them up and then staying clean.

I'm also still interested in knowing what the Ferrari deal was regarding their over-performing engine that was hushed up by the FIA.


----------



## Phaeton (29 Mar 2022)

figbat said:


> We have seen the blatant pushing beyond the 'rules' before - for example if a corner is not being penalised for track limits then drivers are acknowledging this and taking advantage themselves. Or they use the "three strikes" approach as an allocation rather than a threat, using them up and then staying clean.



Like Alonso opening admitted last year on one of the starts he purposely went off track to rejoin later, gave the place back the place he had gained, but in doing so had so much momentum he immediately took back the place.



figbat said:


> I'm also still interested in knowing what the Ferrari deal was regarding their over-performing engine that was hushed up by the FIA.



We're never going to see that & I hope they've not done the same again.


----------



## Illaveago (29 Mar 2022)

It does seem very odd that the teams using the Mercedes engine aren't performing as well as the other teams ? They all can't have got their figures wrong in their simulations .
I found an item on the net which said that the Mercedes MGU-H engine was going to be banned , the engine which used electrical energy to spin up their turbo .


----------



## Illaveago (29 Mar 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Like Alonso opening admitted last year on one of the starts he purposely went off track to rejoin later, gave the place back the place he had gained, but in doing so had so much momentum he immediately took back the place.
> 
> 
> 
> We're never going to see that & I hope they've not done the same again.


Burning oil ?


----------



## dave r (29 Mar 2022)

Illaveago said:


> Burning oil ?



Check the fuel flow and whats in their super fuel.


----------



## SpokeyDokey (29 Mar 2022)

In a sport that has a proliferation of rules both technical and behavioural and that encourages bleeding edge innovation; it is no wonder that both teams and drivers have such an inherent desire to push the boundaries as hard as they can.

It's the nature of the beast and I rather like it tbh - gloves off all the way and one of the reasons I like Horner.


----------



## Reynard (29 Mar 2022)

figbat said:


> I'm also still interested in knowing what the Ferrari deal was regarding their over-performing engine that was hushed up by the FIA.



Me too... We know they were running a higher fuel flow rate (that much is in the public domain), and so if they'd had the standard 100kg of fuel in the tank, they would have run out of fuel well before the end of the race. And we know that you have to have a certain volume left in the tank at the end for the mandatory sample. The Astons fell foul of that last year, losing them a podium.

F1 did go through a phase of using really trick fuels, additives, chilling the fuel to get more into the tank (back then, fuel was by volume not by weight at ambient temperature under current rules) and thus being able to run a much richer mixture, but then they pulled the plug on all that and specified pump fuels. Makes you wonder how "pump fuel" the pump fuel actually is...  And whether someone might have had a finger on the scales somewhere so they could put more into the tank to allow them to run that increased fuel rate.

From F1's commercial standpoint, it makes sense to have Ferrari being competitive, as they have such a massive global following. As Sam Bird said on the R5 commentary, it's not a car brand, it's a religion. So all the marketing, merchandise, bums-on-seats at the circuits and such...

But apart from brief bursts of competitiveness, Ferrari are generally typically Italian - badly organized, full of infighting between drivers and between team personnel, bumbling, making stupid mistakes. The history of F1 is littered with the evidence. The cynic in me says they need that, erm, "helping hand" to stop them from reverting true-to-type.

I will admit I'm not a Ferrari fan and never really have been. My allegiances to teams and drivers have been reasonably peripatetic since the early 90s as interest has waxed and waned, although these days, I'm firmly a McLaren / Lando Norris kind of girl.


----------



## figbat (29 Mar 2022)

My understanding of the "pump fuel" situation (which is a handful of years old so may have been superseded) was that the fuel had to meet the requirements of road pump fuel, but didn't actually have to be road pump fuel. The requirements of road fuel are limited to the aspects that are important to road users, so are prescriptive in certain ways but also have no limits in other ways that are irrelevant to road users. Hence you can formulate a fuel that is highly specialised but still qualifies under road fuel standards.

In fact, here is the relevant article of the technical regulations:










A clever chemist can find ways of complying yet being special.


----------



## figbat (29 Mar 2022)

figbat said:


> My understanding of the "pump fuel" situation (which is a handful of years old so may have been superseded) was that the fuel had to meet the requirements of road pump fuel, but didn't actually have to be road pump fuel. The requirements of road fuel are limited to the aspects that are important to road users, so are prescriptive in certain ways but also have no limits in other ways that are irrelevant to road users. Hence you can formulate a fuel that is highly specialised but still qualifies under road fuel standards.
> 
> In fact, here is the relevant article of the technical regulations:
> View attachment 637639
> ...


I specifically note this bit...
"_...to cover the presence of low level impurities, the sum of components lying outside the 16.2 and 16.4.3 definitions are limited to 1% max m/m of the total fuel_"​In fuel formulating circles, 1% is a lot. If I was tasked with these rules and saw that 1% allowance, I might be looking to make sure that the fuel was made as cleanly as possible, to reduce any unwanted impurities, and take advantage of that 1% allowance for alternative chemicals.


----------



## derrick (29 Mar 2022)

Could the FIA supply the fuel, then they all get the same, or am i missing something.


----------



## Reynard (29 Mar 2022)

Mmmmm, yes... Good point @figbat 

On a 100kg fuel load, 1% is a kilo of "stuff" - so depending on the specific gravity of those chemicals, there is the potential for a fairly significant quantity of performance-enhancing additives to be mixed with the more pukka fuel.

The radio commentary at the weekend did mention that Ferrari have been "clever" with their fuel, so that might well be what they've done.


----------



## Reynard (29 Mar 2022)

derrick said:


> Could the FIA supply the fuel, then they all get the same, or am i missing something.



That was the original remit when F1 moved away from trick fuels a fair few years ago now, but I don't know what the situation is now. You have the sponsorship issues to consider - Ferrari with Shell, McLaren with Gulf, Red Bull with ESSO, Alpine with whatever French supplier they have. Not sure about the other teams. So how would you regulate a control fuel?

Most series lower down the ladder do use control fuel, bought from the pumps at the circuit.


----------



## Alex321 (29 Mar 2022)

Reynard said:


> That was the original remit when F1 moved away from trick fuels a fair few years ago now, but I don't know what the situation is now. You have the sponsorship issues to consider - Ferrari with Shell, McLaren with Gulf, Red Bull with ESSO, Alpine with whatever French supplier they have. Not sure about the other teams. So how would you regulate a control fuel?
> 
> Most series lower down the ladder do use control fuel, bought from the pumps at the circuit.


They all also used to have sponsorship from a variety of tyre manufacturers - Goodyear, Dunlop, Bridgestone, etc. Changing to a single standardised fuel supply would be no different in that respect to the change to only using Pirelli tyres with standard compounds.


----------



## Reynard (29 Mar 2022)

Alex321 said:


> They all also used to have sponsorship from a variety of tyre manufacturers - Goodyear, Dunlop, Bridgestone, etc. Changing to a single standardised fuel supply would be no different in that respect to the change to only using Pirelli tyres with standard compounds.



Only when there were multiple tyre suppliers. That went west after the, ahem, US GP debacle when only six cars started the race after all the Michelin runners pulled out due to safety concerns.

The thing is, there is a LOT more money floating around in fuel / oil sponsorships than those for tyres. And money talks in motor racing, I'm afraid. Formula One is a high-speed advertising campaign, and always will be. You can thank Colin Chapman for that one.


----------



## CharlesF (29 Mar 2022)

@Reynard , thanks for this “You can thank Colin Chapman for that one.” I had a quick read up on advertising in F1, interesting. He was an real innovator in more than engineering terms.


----------



## Reynard (29 Mar 2022)

CharlesF said:


> @Reynard , thanks for this “You can thank Colin Chapman for that one.” I had a quick read up on advertising in F1, interesting. He was an real innovator in more than engineering terms.



YVW 

And yes, he was - he dragged the sport kicking and screaming into the modern era. It's just a shame that he, and some of the people he surrounded himself (Peter Warr to give an example) with were somewhat less savvy in other areas, which ultimately led to his death and their downfall. In some ways, it's amazing that Lotus managed to limp on as a team for as long as it did, after.


----------



## Illaveago (29 Mar 2022)

Nicholas Laughter Tee hee likes kissing the barriers !


----------



## dave r (29 Mar 2022)

Illaveago said:


> Nicholas Laughter Tee hee likes kissing the barriers !



Kissing the barrier is alright as long as you don't kiss them too hard.


----------



## Reynard (29 Mar 2022)

dave r said:


> Kissing the barrier is alright as long as you don't kiss them too hard.



That's what's called a "sticker rub" in the trade


----------



## Beebo (31 Mar 2022)

Does anyone want to see a Las Vegas street circuit?

Not me. And I bet the drivers don’t either. 
Bring back some classic tracks.


----------



## classic33 (31 Mar 2022)

Beebo said:


> Does anyone want to see a Las Vegas street circuit?
> 
> Not me. And I bet the drivers don’t either.
> Bring back some classic tracks.


Hasn't Caesar's Palace already been home to an F1 race?


----------



## SpokeyDokey (31 Mar 2022)

Beebo said:


> Does anyone want to see a Las Vegas street circuit?
> 
> Not me. And I bet the drivers don’t either.
> Bring back some classic tracks.



And get rid of Monte Carlo while they are at it.


----------



## Phaeton (31 Mar 2022)

Beebo said:


> Does anyone want to see a Las Vegas street circuit?
> 
> Not me. And I bet the drivers don’t either.
> Bring back some classic tracks.


Not sure, I think it could work, Vegas is not like a 'normal' town/city, the roads are silly wide, my wife loves the place it's Blackpool on crack


SpokeyDokey said:


> And get rid of Monte Carlo while they are at it.


You have my 100% support to start a petition on that.


----------



## Illaveago (31 Mar 2022)

classic33 said:


> Hasn't Caesar's Palace already been home to an F1 race?


Back in the 80's ?


----------



## matticus (31 Mar 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> And get rid of Monte Carlo while they are at it.


no no no no no no no no.

Having just one street race per season is about right. It's the best, it's iconic, and it does require different skills from the drivers.


----------



## matticus (31 Mar 2022)

[and my ex-Russian superyacht is going to look pretty pointless if there is no GP to watch from the harbour ... ]


----------



## figbat (31 Mar 2022)

Beebo said:


> Does anyone want to see a Las Vegas street circuit?


I don’t mind the venue, but I’m not keen on the time of day.


----------



## SpokeyDokey (31 Mar 2022)

matticus said:


> no no no no no no no no.
> 
> Having just one street race per season is about right. It's the best, it's iconic, and it does require different skills from the drivers.



It’s an anachronism and has no place in the modern sport imo.

Just a spectacle for (mainly) very rich people to watch a race that, apart from P's & Q's, is usually just a procession).

I only watch it for the completeness of the season tbh.

I know it's heresy but hey-ho someone has to speak up. 😁


----------



## icowden (31 Mar 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Just a spectacle for (mainly) very rich people to watch a race that, apart from P's & Q's, is usually just a procession).


Hopefully the fact that the new cars are narrower might mean some improvement.


----------



## Reynard (31 Mar 2022)

classic33 said:


> Hasn't Caesar's Palace already been home to an F1 race?



Early 1980s... Major problems with the heat and the concrete surface breaking up.


----------



## Jenkins (31 Mar 2022)

classic33 said:


> Hasn't Caesar's Palace already been home to an F1 race?





Reynard said:


> Early 1980s... Major problems with the heat and the concrete surface breaking up.


Yep - round the car park of one of the casinos. 

I think this makes it 23 or 24 races planned for next year which is way too many and I've never seen the attraction of street races, especially Monaco.


----------



## classic33 (31 Mar 2022)

Jenkins said:


> *Yep - round the car park of one of the casinos. *
> 
> I think this makes it 23 or 24 races planned for next year which is way too many and I've never seen the attraction of street races, especially Monaco.


That's what I said, Caesar's Palace.


----------



## Jenkins (31 Mar 2022)

classic33 said:


> That's what I said, Caesar's Palace.


Apologies - somehow I read that as Las Vegas! Must have mixed it up with the post you quoted.


----------



## Reynard (31 Mar 2022)

Jenkins said:


> Yep - round the car park of one of the casinos.
> 
> I think this makes it 23 or 24 races planned for next year which is way too many and I've never seen the attraction of street races, especially Monaco.



I think 20 races is about right, personally. Used to be 16, which I guess made you look forward to them more. Twenty three or twenty four races just smacks of people lining their pockets at the expense of the personal lives of the teams and drivers.

Street races are enjoyable when they get the circuit right. But quite often, it's more about going where the money is. The US GP was about street races for a fair while after they stopped going to Watkins Glen - Caesar's Palace, Dallas, Detroit, Phoenix... Trouble with American street circuits is that the corners tend to be 90 degrees left and 90 degrees right. Gets very, umm, repetitive after a while. 

Actually, there used to be two GP in the US when I first started watching F1 - US GP East and US GP West.


----------



## FishFright (31 Mar 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> It’s an anachronism and has no place in the modern sport imo.
> 
> Just a spectacle for (mainly) very rich people to watch a race that, apart from P's & Q's, is usually just a procession).
> 
> ...



Heretic !!! Burn the witch !

My later father said long ago " When you get Monaco you'll get F1" It took a while but he was correct. 
A good place to start is listen to the drivers talk about racing at Monaco. You don't have to like it but it is very important to F1 and has been since the 50's.

But after all that this years fat knack cars can't be as much fun there as the lithe racing machines of the past.


----------



## Reynard (31 Mar 2022)

FishFright said:


> Heretic !!! Burn the witch !
> 
> My later father said long ago " When you get Monaco you'll get F1" It took a while but he was correct.
> A good place to start is listen to the drivers talk about racing at Monaco. You don't have to like it but it is very important to F1 and has been since the 50's.
> ...



They've been racing in Monaco since the 1920s, so out of all the circuits used for F1* (and this includes Silverstone, Spa and Monza), it has the longest and most distinguished history.

Formula E is banging around the full Monaco circuit. Smaller and more nimble cars, they always put a fabby race on.

* Only Le Mans has a longer and more distinguished history, having first hosted the French GP in 1906, albeit in a somewhat different layout to the one we're now familiar with...


----------



## Bonefish Blues (1 Apr 2022)

Albeit Shelsley Walsh is by a long way older, and represents the original (well, an original) form of motorsport.


----------



## Jody (1 Apr 2022)

Reading an article this morning that Monaco may not be on the calendar next year. Given the extra races they are taking on, coupled with the contact expiry and preferential hosting fees that Bernie gave them.


----------



## Phaeton (1 Apr 2022)

Jody said:


> Reading an article this morning that Monaco may not be on the calendar next year. Given the extra races they are taking on, coupled with the contact expiry and preferential hosting fees that Bernie gave them.


We can only hope, although the drivers will grumble they can't sleep in their own beds the night before, they'll just have to do what they normally do & sleep in somebody else's.


----------



## Beebo (1 Apr 2022)

The British GP will be gone soon at this rate. 
They can’t afford the increased fees and the facilities are looking tired compared to other modern shiner tracks.


----------



## icowden (1 Apr 2022)

Beebo said:


> The British GP will be gone soon at this rate.
> They can’t afford the increased fees and the facilities are looking tired compared to other modern shiner tracks.


Next negotiation will be in 2024. It doesn't help that Bernie / Liberty negotiated to kill off F1 in the UK by selling the screening rights to Sky for £1.18 billion. It'll be interesting to see whether they renew that contract or force us all to buy F1TV...


----------



## Reynard (1 Apr 2022)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Albeit Shelsley Walsh is by a long way older, and represents the original (well, an original) form of motorsport.



Likewise trials. Basically, muddy hillclimbs. Some of the hills in use on various events have been "observed sections" for well over a century. 

Although I was talking about circuit racing upthread.


----------



## matticus (1 Apr 2022)

Rascasse corner - the early years:


----------



## Bonefish Blues (1 Apr 2022)

Reynard said:


> Likewise trials. Basically, muddy hillclimbs. Some of the hills in use on various events have been "observed sections" for well over a century.
> 
> Although I was talking about circuit racing upthread.


I knew - I was just doing one of those 'and here's another thing things'


----------



## Reynard (1 Apr 2022)

Bonefish Blues said:


> I knew - I was just doing one of those 'and here's another thing things'



As a complete geek-ette, I'm not exactly going to criticize... 

The early history of motor sport - and I'll use that term as opposed to motor racing - is absolutely fascinating and more than a little bit bonkers.


----------



## FishFright (1 Apr 2022)

A little bit of US motor sport history I recently learned is the very earliest car and motorbike races took part on the wooden velodromes which where very popular at the time. Hence why ovals / circle racing has such a hold on US motorsport.

Check out The Dork O Motive podcast for more details.

View: https://dorkomotive.podbean.com/e/21-suicidal-speed-and-splinters-a-history-of-board-track-racing-in-america/


----------



## Reynard (1 Apr 2022)

I'll have to check that out. And will pass the link to my historian friend. I think he'll definitely find it interesting 

That's exactly what I meant by bonkers...


----------



## FishFright (1 Apr 2022)

Reynard said:


> I'll have to check that out. And will pass the link to my historian friend. I think he'll definitely find it interesting
> 
> That's exactly what I meant by bonkers...



It gets even more bonkers when it comes to in race track repairs !


----------



## Reynard (1 Apr 2022)

FishFright said:


> It gets even more bonkers when it comes to in race track repairs !



Now I really *am* intrigued...


----------



## Bonefish Blues (1 Apr 2022)

FishFright said:


> A little bit of US motor sport history I recently learned is the very earliest car and motorbike races took part on the wooden velodromes which where very popular at the time. Hence why ovals / circle racing has such a hold on US motorsport.
> 
> Check out The Dork O Motive podcast for more details.
> 
> View: https://dorkomotive.podbean.com/e/21-suicidal-speed-and-splinters-a-history-of-board-track-racing-in-america/



Way too tame.

Needs more lion.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (1 Apr 2022)

matticus said:


> Rascasse corner - the early years:
> View attachment 638071


Maximus Schumacherus was parking on the apex even then.


----------



## FishFright (1 Apr 2022)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Maximus Schumacherus was parking on the apex even then.



Once ! And thousands of years later Britannicus is still bitching about it. And they wonder why Rome exited !Rexit ? ?


----------



## Reynard (1 Apr 2022)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Maximus Schumacherus was parking on the apex even then.



You mean Caligula, surely...


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (7 Apr 2022)

View: https://twitter.com/Speedcaster/status/1508247492923736067?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1508247492923736067%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pieandbovril.com%2Fforum%2Findex.php%3Fapp%3Dcoremodule%3Dsystemcontroller%3Dembedurl%3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2FSpeedcaster%2Fstatus%2F1508247492923736067


Oh Guenther


----------



## Phaeton (7 Apr 2022)

Not sure what Haas expected last year, I can't see how two rookies who've never been in a F1 car could have been a good pairing.


----------



## Reynard (7 Apr 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Not sure what Haas expected last year, I can't see how two rookies who've never been in a F1 car could have been a good pairing.



Well, Ferrari would have had a say with one, given they supply the engines, and as for the other, well, money talks...

Speaking of, Mazepin was on "Hard Talk" with Steven Sackur last night. I had to retrain myself from throwing the fire irons at the telly. What utter bloody garbage...


----------



## Jody (7 Apr 2022)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> Oh Guenther



He's a great character.


----------



## Phaeton (10 Apr 2022)

Spoiler



One of the worst cars on the grid (reportedly) yet leading the manufacturers championship & both drivers in the top 5


----------



## Richard A Thackeray (10 Apr 2022)

These look very intriguing!
https://osetbikes.com/gb/bikes/24-0r-electric-off-road-motorcycle/

SWMBO & I used to go to watch the British rounds of the World Indoor Trials Championships, at Sheffield Arena
The cyclo-trials rider Ot Pi, was also riding, & he managed most of the same obstacles (barring the ones that were high)

We've even, in the past, watched the outdoor Worlds round at Hoghton Towers(?) near Preston


----------



## Illaveago (10 Apr 2022)

Well! I don't think much of formula E. It's a bit like watching a very long train go by whilst waiting at a level crossing .
It also sounds like listening to a dentist's drill !


----------



## Illaveago (10 Apr 2022)

Has McLaren used the same designer that designed the outfits for the postmen at Royal Mail to design the colour scheme for their car? It looks really drab compared with last year's car .


----------



## derrick (10 Apr 2022)

Illaveago said:


> Well! I don't think much of formula E. It's a bit like watching a very long train go by whilst waiting at a level crossing .
> It also sounds like listening to a dentist's drill !


First time I have tried to watch Formula E, What is it all about.. 8 minutes of extra power, WTF. Either go racing or don't. So boring 👍


----------



## Reynard (10 Apr 2022)

Don't knock Formula E - I thought both races in Rome (yesterday and today) were good to watch - better than the grand Prixzzzzzzzzzz.

The extra power works a bit like the undercut / overcut in F1 with fresh tyres, so it's good for strategy, and sometimes it can take a while for that to all unwind.

Mitch Evans has been absolutely flying all weekend, and Sam Bird wasn't doing badly until Nick Cassidy stuffed him into the wall.


----------



## derrick (10 Apr 2022)

Reynard said:


> Don't knock Formula E - I thought both races in Rome (yesterday and today) were good to watch - better than the grand Prixzzzzzzzzzz.
> 
> The extra power works a bit like the undercut / overcut in F1 with fresh tyres, so it's good for strategy, and sometimes it can take a while for that to all unwind.
> 
> Mitch Evans has been absolutely flying all weekend, and Sam Bird wasn't doing badly until Nick Cassidy stuffed him into the wall.


Yawn.


----------



## Reynard (10 Apr 2022)

derrick said:


> Yawn.



*shug*

In that case, might I suggest you try watching stock cars instead?


----------



## Rusty Nails (10 Apr 2022)

Reynard said:


> In that case, might I suggest you try watching *stock cars instead*?


You don't hear those drivers moaning that their cars aren't competitive enough.

A sledgehammer and an angle grinder seem to be good enough for the mechanics to get them back on the track.


----------



## Reynard (10 Apr 2022)

Rusty Nails said:


> You don't hear those drivers moaning that their cars aren't competitive enough.
> 
> A sledgehammer and an angle grinder seem to be good enough for the mechanics to get them back on the track.



Hmmm, indeed...

And whingers usually find themselves stuffed into the fence.


----------



## Illaveago (11 Apr 2022)

I felt sorry for Sebastian Vettle yesterday after being written off on Channel 4. He has just come back from having the virus and missed out on 2 races. A lot of the drivers are finding the new cars are difficult to drive and sort out . 
It doesn't help trying to sort out a car when they keep changing the tyre make up . Different tracks and temperatures also mess with their set ups . So for a driver to come back in from having the virus and to handle a car which isn't behaving would be difficult . Lewis found it a struggle after his return .


----------



## Phaeton (11 Apr 2022)

Illaveago said:


> I felt sorry for Sebastian Vettle yesterday after being written off on Channel 4. He has just come back from having the virus and missed out on 2 races. A lot of the drivers are finding the new cars are difficult to drive and sort out .
> It doesn't help trying to sort out a car when they keep changing the tyre make up . Different tracks and temperatures also mess with their set ups . So for a driver to come back in from having the virus and to handle a car which isn't behaving would be difficult . Lewis found it a struggle after his return .


Although I understand where you're coming from there's 15 million reasons why I can't really have that much sympathy for him https://www.essentiallysports.com/f...itch-from-ferrari-f1-to-aston-martin-in-2021/ 

I'm also not 100% sure he wants to be there, I think he thinks he wants to be there, but his whole demeanor & body language suggests he doesn't. I also believe he was an excellent driver, but he was always better when out front & not having to fight, get his elbows out & hustle his way through the field which he is going to have to do with & in the coming years if he stays. He might be past his sell by date, I just hope he realises that, it's possibly an age thing, at Verstappen & LeClerc's age you think you are immortal, but once you get to Vettel's age you realise you're not.


----------



## Jody (11 Apr 2022)

I get the impression the new AM is not a good drive, team harmony isn't what it should be and SV is leaving at the end of this season.


----------



## Phaeton (11 Apr 2022)

Jody said:


> I get the impression the new AM is not a good drive, team harmony isn't what it should be and SV is leaving at the end of this season.


Team harmony & a narcissistic team owner will never go together.


----------



## Jody (11 Apr 2022)

Coupled with his son being your opposite.


----------



## Phaeton (11 Apr 2022)

Jody said:


> Coupled with his son being your opposite.


Who still thinks he's in karting


----------



## figbat (11 Apr 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Who still thinks he's in karting


Just what I was thinking! Weaving belongs in junior formulae - Lance has been in F1 long enough to know better. Or apparently not.


----------



## Phaeton (11 Apr 2022)

figbat said:


> Just what I was thinking! Weaving belongs in junior formulae - Lance has been in F1 long enough to know better. Or apparently not.


He has sparks of being a very able driver, but then goes & spoils it, I wonder if it's just lack of maturity, or frustration of not getting his own way, or not having a race winning car. That move on Latifi was almost childish (and dangerous)


----------



## Illaveago (12 Apr 2022)

Jody said:


> Coupled with his son being your opposite.


He likes weaving !


----------



## icowden (12 Apr 2022)

Anyone else wondering given the Ferrari performance whether

a) Ferrari have done an outstanding job in developing a car which is far better than the rest of the field
or
b) Ferrari have found a semi-legal short cut which other teams haven't exploited...

I mean - I'm hoping for Charles sake that it really is (a) but I have a nagging suspicion at the back of my mind that (b) might be a possibility based on recent history...

In the meantime I am very much enjoying Red Bull appearing to experience Karma...


----------



## FishFright (12 Apr 2022)

icowden said:


> Anyone else wondering given the Ferrari performance whether
> 
> a) Ferrari have done an outstanding job in developing a car which is far better than the rest of the field
> or
> ...



It appears that Mercedes haven't adapted to the E10 as well as Ferrari / Honda , hard to tell with Renault as the team is a bit meh still.


----------



## Reynard (12 Apr 2022)

icowden said:


> Anyone else wondering given the Ferrari performance whether
> 
> a) Ferrari have done an outstanding job in developing a car which is far better than the rest of the field
> or
> ...



And not-quite-so-recent history...

The thing is, Ferrari being successful gets a lot of bums-on-seats, which, of course, is a financial asset. And to quote Sam Bird, who was doing the 5 Live radio commentary for the first two races, "it's not just a car, it's a religion."

Also, regarding fuel - you are allowed 1% impurities in fuel samples. In a 100kg tank of fuel, that's 1kg of "stuff" that's legit. I've noticed bog standard E10 fuel makes my own road car more thirsty, but if you're allowed (another grey area in the rules) to dump a kilo of additives in to improve efficiency / oopmh (not terribly technical terms, yes, I know LOL) then yes, there's definite room for chicanery. Especially that we no longer get the info on fuel efficiency that used to be a standard on the TV graphics. That used to be such a BIG thing until Ferrari started pissing around with their engine and got done for it, and then it oh-so-conveniently disappeared from the public domain. So yeah, there's a definite stink around it somewhere...

TBH, I get more laughs out of Ferrari making a sow's ear out of a silk purse...  They have got the capability to show brilliance and get everyone rowing in the same direction, but then politics and egos and Italian headless chickenry kind of get in the way.

As for Red Bull. Yep. Though I think, given that Alpha Tauri have also been having problems, they have tried to push the envelope too far somewhere on the technical front to get that extra performance. Adrian Newey is an immensely talented engineer, but he is very much in the mould of Colin Chapman. The latter who famously said about racing car components that "if it doesn't break, then it's not light enough." So yes, Karma seems to have bitten them in the bum somewhat. Although it remains to be seen whether it's a problem that can be solved, or whether it's down to a fundamental error in the design / packaging of the car.

If it's the latter, and the Red Bull proves to be fragile all season (that's going to be fun when penalties start kicking in for extra components), then I think I'd take Mercedes' handling issues every time. The car might not be as fast as it could be, but at least it's not breaking down...


----------



## Jody (12 Apr 2022)

C. They gave up on any development 18+ months ago and pumped all of last years budget into this years car. Coupled with developing their PU for the higher ethanol content.

If the rumour is correct they haven't even turned the engine up yet.


----------



## Reynard (12 Apr 2022)

Jody said:


> If the rumour is correct they haven't even turned the engine up yet.



And then... *BOOM*

No BOOM today, BOOM tomorrow. There's always a BOOM tomorrow...


----------



## Phaeton (12 Apr 2022)

I really do hope for A but I have a nagging doubt it's B


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (13 Apr 2022)

It's an Italian car. By halfway through the season it'll have rust issues.


----------



## Illaveago (15 Apr 2022)

From what I have been seeing on the net It seems as though the boss of Red Bull is getting a bit fed up with Vestappen's attitude !


----------



## Bonefish Blues (15 Apr 2022)

Illaveago said:


> From what I have been seeing on the net It seems as though the boss of Red Bull is getting a bit fed up with Vestappen's attitude !


Ooh linky please!


----------



## Illaveago (15 Apr 2022)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Ooh linky please!


I'll have to try and find it now !


----------



## Phaeton (15 Apr 2022)

Illaveago said:


> From what I have been seeing on the net It seems as though the boss of Red Bull is getting a bit fed up with Vestappen's attitude !


He should not have employed a prima donna then should he, they have made him what he is today, they told him at 16 they would build the whole team around him to make him world champion, how do they expect him to behave. They did what they said they would do (whether he should have won last year is open to debate) & then they pulled rug out from under him.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (15 Apr 2022)

Phaeton said:


> He should not have employed a prima donna then should he, they have made him what he is today, they told him at 16 they would build the whole team around him to make him world champion, how do they expect him to behave. They did what they said they would do (whether he should have won last year is open to debate) & then they pulled rug out from under him.


Exactly this - I fear Max doesn't have any moderating influences around him.


----------



## Illaveago (15 Apr 2022)

I can't find the post now but I think they thought that after winning the championship that he would calm down.
His aggressive behaviour at the restart after a safety car certainly hasn't gone down very well.


----------



## Reynard (15 Apr 2022)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Exactly this - I fear Max doesn't have any moderating influences around him.



Indeed. He's gone through his entire career so far without anyone saying "NO" to him, and it shows. Basically, he acts like a spoiled toddler and everyone panders to his whims because he's the "golden boy."

Unfortunately it's something that happens in motor racing with depressing regularity. Think Senna, think Schumacher Sr*... Drivers get put on a pedestal for all the wrong reasons, and it's something I find intensely frustrating. But it is what it is. Top line racing drivers are, on the whole, not very nice people. They're self-centered, selfish and don't see what's wrong about sh*tting on other people to get what they want and / or to preserve their public image and reputation.

On the other hand, I do rather enjoy having a pantomime villain to boo... 

* I've always wondered what sort of a person / competitor Michael Schumacher would have been if Jochen Mass hadn't stopped Derek Warwick from beating the crap out of him at the Nurburgring in 1991...


----------



## Phaeton (15 Apr 2022)

Reynard said:


> Indeed. He's gone through his entire career so far without anyone saying "NO" to him, and it shows. Basically, he acts like a spoiled toddler and everyone panders to his whims because he's the "golden boy."


Christian Horner


Reynard said:


> On the other hand, I do rather enjoy having a pantomime villain to boo...


Christian Horner

I do wonder how much pressure Christian Horner is actually under from above, whether his continuance was in question?


----------



## matticus (16 Apr 2022)

Reynard said:


> * I've always wondered what sort of a person / competitor Michael Schumacher would have been if Jochen Mass hadn't stopped Derek Warwick from beating the crap out of him at the Nurburgring in 1991...





(for one thing, I doubt he would gone on to chase DC down the pits at Spa. In fact it would have been interesting to see THAT pan out without the intervention of other team personnel. I don't see DC as a bruiser, but he's got the chin to take a punch or two so it might have been a good fight ... )


----------



## icowden (16 Apr 2022)

matticus said:


> (for one thing, I doubt he would gone on to chase DC down the pits at Spa. In fact it would have been interesting to see THAT pan out without the intervention of other team personnel. I don't see DC as a bruiser, but he's got the chin to take a punch or two so it might have been a good fight ... )



And don't forget DC is scottish...


----------



## Reynard (16 Apr 2022)

matticus said:


> (for one thing, I doubt he would gone on to chase DC down the pits at Spa. In fact it would have been interesting to see THAT pan out without the intervention of other team personnel. I don't see DC as a bruiser, but he's got the chin to take a punch or two so it might have been a good fight ... )



I don't have much knowledge of DC tbh, so goodness knows.  

Derek is built like the proverbial brick, erm, outhouse, btw. I would definitely not want to find myself on the end of his jab. From my own experience though, he's such a lovely and kind man.


----------



## Beebo (25 Apr 2022)

Sounds like Merc have conceded that their concept of minimal side pods was a mistake. 
Could they go back to the car they used at first testing which had more normal pods or are they stuck with this one?


----------



## Phaeton (25 Apr 2022)

Beebo said:


> Sounds like Merc have conceded that their concept of minimal side pods was a mistake.
> Could they go back to the car they used at first testing which had more normal pods or are they stuck with this one?



No idea really, but I suspect they have committed themselves down this route & all future developments are/were based on the fact this was going to work, the only other problem is are they telling the truth & they will have it sorted by the time we're back in Europe which maybe too late for the championship, but it might be worse if they tried to revert.

The only thing in their favour is with 2 other challengers the points are being split, 4 races in 2 winners with 2 races each, IF Sainz stops throwing the dummy out & gets involved he will take points away from both of them, I don't think Perez will unless it's to RB's advantage, he is a genuine No2, whereas Sainz will only be forced into that position if he continues his own stupidity.


----------



## Phaeton (25 Apr 2022)

The knives are out for Hamilton, Rosberg & Marko are playing mind games, both of them dislike him because he's successful & stopped them getting what they wanted. Marko suggesting Hamilton will lose motivation & should have retired, Rosberg rubbing the salt in that Russell is doing much better, no disrespect meant to Russell as if he gets the right car he will be a World Champion, but he didn't do any 'real' overtaking he was in the right place at the right time with the Sainz/Ricciardo tangle. Just watched it now, missed the first 15 minutes yesterday got my timing wrong, thought it started at 14:30 not 14:00

I didn't see any lack of motivation from Hamilton, he was attacking Gasly at every opportunity, there are others out there & some retired F1 champions who would have just driven around all race & collected the cheque, Button springs to mind.


----------



## FishFright (25 Apr 2022)

Phaeton said:


> The knives are out for Hamilton, Rosberg & Marko are playing mind games, both of them dislike him because he'd successful & stopped them getting what they wanted. Marko suggesting Hamilton will lose motivation & should have retired, Rosberg rubbing the salt in that Russell is doing much better, no disrespect meant to Russell as if he gets the right car he will be a World Champion, but he didn't do any 'real' overtaking he was in the right place at the right time with the Sainz/Ricciardo tangle. Just watched it now, missed the first 15 minutes yesterday got my timing wrong, thought it started at 14:30 not 14:00
> 
> I didn't see any lack of motivation from Hamilton, he was attacking Gasly at every opportunity, there are others out there & some retired F1 champions who would have just driven around all race & collected the cheque, Button springs to mind.



Oddly I saw Hamilton's drive as very lack lustre and his attacks were half assed at best. I think his heart is not in it , at least until they gets their heads around the set up issues that are plaguing him this season.

Russell on the other hand is in the best car of his career, bar the guest drive, and is making the most of it.


----------



## Beebo (25 Apr 2022)

FishFright said:


> Oddly I saw Hamilton's drive as very lack lustre and his attacks were half assed at best. I think his heart is not in it , at least until they gets their heads around the set up issues that are plaguing him this season.
> 
> Russell on the other hand is in the best car of his career, bar the guest drive, and is making the most of it.



Russell knows how to drive a bad car well, Hamilton can drive a good car very well. 

Russell is complaining about back and chest pain from the bouncing. He’s younger than Hamilton so I suspect Hamilton is suffering more. 
The car is reasonably competitive in the low speed corners but overtaking is all about getting past on the straights, and that seems almost impossible so they can’t progress.


----------



## FishFright (25 Apr 2022)

Beebo said:


> Russell knows how to drive a bad car well, Hamilton can drive a good car very well.
> 
> Russell is complaining about back and chest pain from the bouncing. He’s younger than Hamilton so I suspect Hamilton is suffering more.
> The car is reasonably competitive in the low speed corners but overtaking is all about getting past on the straights, and that seems almost impossible so they can’t progress.




All that porpoising can't be good for the body at any age . I do wonder if the FIA will be forced to step in eventually.


----------



## Jody (25 Apr 2022)

Doesn't say much that Britney stuck the knife in. 

Marko is still triggered to f.... by Merc so no surprise there either.


----------



## Phaeton (25 Apr 2022)

FishFright said:


> All that porpoising can't be good for the body at any age . I do wonder if the FIA will be forced to step in eventually.



But what can they do? Impose a minimum ride height, but probably each car will be different, they will also have to admit their rule changes haven't worked, will they want to change them so quickly?

Ted Kravitz pointed out the difference between the Ferrari & the Mercedes floor section, is the amount that is causing the problem as it's too effective, is it the flex, or is the problem actually understanding the problem. Presumably they could control it with some technical wizardry opening & closing vents but that would probably not be allowed, maybe they just need to bleed off some of it's effectiveness.


----------



## Phaeton (25 Apr 2022)

On another vein the BTCC was good yesterday, but confusing about the number of boosts available on the screen & not sure spectators will be able to understand it at trackside but good close racing.


----------



## derrick (25 Apr 2022)

Phaeton said:


> On another vein the BTCC was good yesterday, but confusing about the number of boosts available on the screen & not sure spectators will be able to understand it at trackside but good close racing.



The Carrera cup was brilliant.


----------



## Illaveago (25 Apr 2022)

From what I could see from the racing yesterday is that all of these new changes seem to have got them back in the same situation that they were in before . Cars not being able to overtake ! Le Clerc was stuck behind Perez for ages . Lewis was stuck in a long chain of cars and couldn't overtake . The only difference I could see is that the car's can get closer . The other thing about the new cars is that if you go over the kerbs and lose down force you are heading for a crash .
I also don't agree with time penalties being added on at the end . Ocon should have served his time in the pits ! A driver who offends can benefit from staying out , they can impede a driver from advancing by being in front of them whereas if they were forced into the pits they would be removed from that situation.


----------



## Reynard (25 Apr 2022)

The basic science behind the aero is actually very simple, and uses Bernoulli's Principle. By accelerating the air under the car through the use of a venturi (a constricted section), you are lowering the air pressure underneath, sucking the car to the tarmac. It's quite elegant, really.

The problem is that with a racing car, the velocity of the airflow through that venturi isn't a constant. It's a variable, which means the level of downforce generated is also a variable. And because the pressure drop is dependent on the square of the velocity, it's a bit of a nightmare.


----------



## icowden (25 Apr 2022)

Illaveago said:


> From what I could see from the racing yesterday is that all of these new changes seem to have got them back in the same situation that they were in before . Cars not being able to overtake ! Le Clerc was stuck behind Perez for ages . Lewis was stuck in a long chain of cars and couldn't overtake . The only difference I could see is that the car's can get closer . The other thing about the new cars is that if you go over the kerbs and lose down force you are heading for a crash .
> I also don't agree with time penalties being added on at the end . Ocon should have served his time in the pits ! A driver who offends can benefit from staying out , they can impede a driver from advancing by being in front of them whereas if they were forced into the pits they would be removed from that situation.



Agree wholeheartedly. Russell had some good luck on the starts, whilst Hamilton got boxed in both times - that was the key difference in their placings, plus Hamilton nearly collecting Ocon to cement it.

I did wonder if the issue is with the circuit. It felt as though the race could have been exciting if that back strait was just a little bit longer. Hamilton kept not having quite enough time to execute the pass on Gasly, and as long as Gasly could hold onto DRS as well, there just wasn't enough differential - somehow Gasly couldn't get past Zhoe. If Hamilton had had a bit more power he'd have been past them both.

That really long DRS period also killed the race completely - 10 laps earlier might have made a big difference.


----------



## classic33 (25 Apr 2022)

Illaveago said:


> From what I could see from the racing yesterday is that all of these new changes seem to have got them back in the same situation that they were in before . Cars not being able to overtake ! Le Clerc was stuck behind Perez for ages . Lewis was stuck in a long chain of cars and couldn't overtake . The only difference I could see is that the car's can get closer . The other thing about the new cars is that if you go over the kerbs and lose down force you are heading for a crash .
> I also don't agree with time penalties being added on at the end . Ocon should have served his time in the pits ! A driver who offends can benefit from staying out , they can impede a driver from advancing by being in front of them whereas if they were forced into the pits they would be removed from that situation.


If he had to stop again the penalty would have been served in the pits. The five second time penalty wouldn't have been over half a minute if served in the pits. Its why they have a Drive Through penalty. The same rules for all the drivers.

Hamilton was on the radio complaining about no DRS, not enough power, the car in front of him not letting him by*. Maybe he can't pass those further down the field, without the aid of blue flags. 


*Gasly, who he was racing against at the time, just happened to be the better driver, of the two of them, on the day. He was also rightfully defending his position, against a driver and car combination that wasn't up to the task.


----------



## icowden (26 Apr 2022)

classic33 said:


> Hamilton was on the radio complaining about no DRS, not enough power, the car in front of him not letting him by*. Maybe he can't pass those further down the field, without the aid of blue flags.


To be fair - when he was complaining about no DRS he was in a position where he could have taken Gasly with the additional power - Gasly hadn't got on the back of Zhoe. Of course he is frustrated by the lack of power in the car, and his knowledge that he has a faster car than the one in front. And of course Gasly didn't have to let him past. 

Hamilton has more than demonstrated that he can pass through the field, but you have to have enough differential in the car to get the overtake done and without DRS and a long enough strait for the power differentials to be meaningful, even a 7 time world champion is going to struggle. He had some overtakes early on but then got stuck in the DRS chain of doom after losing about 4 seconds due to Ocon's unsafe release.

That said Hamilton does seem to be in the doldrums and Russell does seem to get on with the car a bit better than Lewis does.


----------



## classic33 (26 Apr 2022)

icowden said:


> To be fair - when he was complaining about no DRS he was in a position where he could have taken Gasly with the additional power - Gasly hadn't got on the back of Zhoe. Of course he is frustrated by the lack of power in the car, and his knowledge that he has a faster car than the one in front. And of course Gasly didn't have to let him past.
> 
> Hamilton has more than demonstrated that he can pass through the field, but you have to have enough differential in the car to get the overtake done and without DRS and a long enough strait for the power differentials to be meaningful, even a 7 time world champion is going to struggle. He had some overtakes early on but then got stuck in the DRS chain of doom after losing about 4 seconds due to Ocon's unsafe release.
> 
> That said Hamilton does seem to be in the doldrums and Russell does seem to get on with the car a bit better than Lewis does.


Hamilton was complaining about the lack of power, and no DRS before the pit lane incident, five second penalty given to Ocon. He "lost" more time than would be normal due to half the grid coming in on the same lap. The same as everyone who came in at that time.

If the car was faster than the one in front, as you say, he should have been able to draw level with the slower car in front. He couldn't, he tried and failed more than once. Even when there was no DRS, he was stuck behind him, unable to pass.

Gasly was following Albon, whilst defending his position on track.


----------



## Illaveago (26 Apr 2022)

I don't know how Lewis and Russell cope with the car . At one point it looked like Lewis had a Bucking Bronco as he approached one corner.
It looks like most of the car's do it to some extent and I wonder how the FIA came up with the idea !


----------



## matticus (26 Apr 2022)

The entire first page of google shows that overtake is a _verb_.

<sigh> as you were ...


----------



## Bonefish Blues (26 Apr 2022)

matticus said:


> The entire first page of google shows that overtake is a _verb_.
> 
> <sigh> as you were ...



And there we have the evolution of language.


----------



## icowden (26 Apr 2022)

classic33 said:


> Hamilton was complaining about the lack of power, and no DRS before the pit lane incident, five second penalty given to Ocon. He "lost" more time than would be normal due to half the grid coming in on the same lap. The same as everyone who came in at that time.


He lost places due to being delayed by Ocon being released in front of him - because that cost time. Only a few seconds but it did cost him. Instead of coming back out in (11th?12th?) he came back out in 14th. 


classic33 said:


> If the car was faster than the one in front, as you say, he should have been able to draw level with the slower car in front. He couldn't, he tried and failed more than once. Even when there was no DRS, he was stuck behind him, unable to pass.


He drew alongside almost every time, but not enough to get the full half cars width to give him some elbow., it was clear his car was faster than Gasly's but not by enough to get past on that long straight without a DRS advantage. Gasly drove very well and didn't succumb to the pressure that Hamilton was piling on, I don't disagree with that.


----------



## matticus (26 Apr 2022)

Bonefish Blues said:


> And there we have the evolution of language.



Doesn't mean I have to like it! And in this case it's produced an ugly useage. (_ev_olution? more like _de_volution, haha!). When "pass" existed as a simple, easily understood, long established noun.

"_He's executed an overtake._" whaaaaaaaaat!


----------



## Phaeton (26 Apr 2022)

I do wonder if he had dropped back 1/2 a second so that he didn't get DRS to allow Gasly to attack Albon would Albon have been able to pull away so that Albon didn't get DRS & then Hamilton could have overtaken him. But he would have had exactly the same issue if both of them caught up the next car.

Ocon/Alpine really screwed Hamilton's race with that unsafe release, I don't think 5 seconds after the race was enough of a penalty. Maybe the rules need to be to give the place back even if that means giving up 2,3,x places. It's happened before where a car has got between 2 cars that should swap places, so they effectively can't swap without losing multiple places, but tough. 

But as I'm typing that I'm wondering if it could then be used to a tactical advantage, somebody has to give a place back, but the car they have to give the place back to goes into the pits & comes out 8 cars behind, what would they have to do then, give up 8 places?


----------



## classic33 (26 Apr 2022)

How much time did he lose entering the pits, given half of those on track pitted on the same lap. And what did the 4+ second pit stop actually cost him.

Icon was impeded by the Alpha Tauri pit activity.


----------



## icowden (26 Apr 2022)

classic33 said:


> How much time did he lose entering the pits, given half of those on track pitted on the same lap. And what did the 4+ second pit stop actually cost him.
> 
> Icon was impeded by the Alpha Tauri pit activity.



It cost him three places if I recall correctly and got him stuck for the rest of the race. Hamilton got boxed at the start, whilst George had a lucky break and skipped from 11th to 6th and was then able to push up to 4th. Hamilton on the other hand fought up to 11th then got Oconned back down to 14th and stuck in the perpetual DRS train of doom. The Mercedes has the power to take the other cars one at a time but not in a DRS train.

The issues are compounded by the fact that Imola isn't a great F1 track any more and has hosted quite a few processions.


----------



## classic33 (26 Apr 2022)

icowden said:


> It cost him three places if I recall correctly and got him stuck for the rest of the race.


Not all the fault of one other driver then.
If he'd been quicker into the pits, if half the field didn't come in on the same lap, if the pit stop had been quicker...


----------



## icowden (26 Apr 2022)

classic33 said:


> Not all the fault of one other driver then.
> If he'd been quicker into the pits, if half the field didn't come in on the same lap, if the pit stop had been quicker...



No, it was directly the fault of Ocon. 

Ocon was released into Hamilton and ended up in front of him allowing Gasly to undercut. 
Hamilton should have been out a couple of seconds earlier behind Stroll - the position he was in when he went into the pits.

Fair play to Albon - he came in a lap before and made the best of his warmed up tyres to zoom past both Hamilton and Gasly, but there is no doubt that Ocon's unsafe release cost Hamilton more then Ocon.


----------



## classic33 (26 Apr 2022)

icowden said:


> No, it was directly the fault of Ocon.
> 
> Ocon was released into Hamilton and ended up in front of him allowing Gasly to undercut.
> Hamilton should have been out a couple of seconds earlier behind Stroll - the position he was in when he went into the pits.
> ...


Hamilton's stationary time was longer.


----------



## Rusty Nails (26 Apr 2022)

It's hearbreaking and very unusual that an F1 driver in a slower car does not finish in the points. 

One could be forgiven for thinking drivers of faster cars have an unfair advantage


----------



## icowden (26 Apr 2022)

classic33 said:


> Hamilton's stationary time was longer.


And? If Ocon had not been released unsafely, Hamilton would have been in front of Ocon not behind him. Gasly would have got the undercut on Ocon and Albon would have taken Ocon and Gasly leaving Hamilton chasing Stroll as he had been, and probably able to get past as Stroll was not in a DRS train.


----------



## icowden (26 Apr 2022)

Rusty Nails said:


> It's hearbreaking and very unusual that an F1 driver in a slower car does not finish in the points.
> One could be forgiven for thinking drivers of faster cars have an unfair advantage


They do. The Mercedes for all its faults is still somewhere around the third / fourth fastest car though.


----------



## dave r (26 Apr 2022)

icowden said:


> And? If Ocon had not been released unsafely, Hamilton would have been in front of Ocon not behind him. Gasly would have got the undercut on Ocon and Albon would have taken Ocon and Gasly leaving Hamilton chasing Stroll as he had been, and probably able to get past as Stroll was not in a DRS train.




Summed it up nicely.


----------



## classic33 (26 Apr 2022)

icowden said:


> And? If Ocon had not been released unsafely, Hamilton would have been in front of Ocon not behind him. Gasly would have got the undercut on Ocon and Albon would have taken Ocon and Gasly leaving Hamilton chasing Stroll as he had been, and probably able to get past as Stroll was not in a DRS train.


And if he'd pitted the lap before, the entry time to his pit box was quicker, the pit stop had been under 4 seconds, there'd have been no penalty. issued. DRS was enabled on lap 38, 22 laps after the pit stop.

And once again the race director has come under attack, for not knowing what he was doing.


----------



## icowden (26 Apr 2022)

classic33 said:


> And if he'd pitted the lap before, the entry time to his pit box was quicker, the pit stop had been under 4 seconds, there'd have been no penalty. issued. DRS was enabled on lap 38, 22 laps after the pit stop.


But those are what ifs. Factually, Ocon's unsafe release ruined Hamilton's race. Almost everyone pitted in lap 19, and yes Merc were a bit slow with the stop. That doesn't excuse the unsafe release (which was penalised) or change the effect that it had on the midfield race.


----------



## Phaeton (26 Apr 2022)

classic33 said:


> And once again the race director has come under attack, for not knowing what he was doing.



I feel he left it 5-6 laps later than it could have been, BUT if he had of switched it on 5-6 laps earlier, somebody had sent one up hte inside on the damp track & taken 2 cars out he/she/they would have been dammed for that as well.


----------



## FishFright (26 Apr 2022)

Phaeton said:


> But what can they do? Impose a minimum ride height, but probably each car will be different, they will also have to admit their rule changes haven't worked, will they want to change them so quickly?
> 
> Ted Kravitz pointed out the difference between the Ferrari & the Mercedes floor section, is the amount that is causing the problem as it's too effective, is it the flex, or is the problem actually understanding the problem. Presumably they could control it with some technical wizardry opening & closing vents but that would probably not be allowed, maybe they just need to bleed off some of it's effectiveness.



The FIA could , in theory , call it a safety issue find a way of defining 'excess' porpoising via vertical G forces .


----------



## Illaveago (27 Apr 2022)

I think Mercedes aren't very good when it comes to strategy . They have let down Lewis several times in the past . I think Hungary is a good example where Lewis was the only car on the grid when every other team went into the pits for tyre changes .
Mercedes have the reliability. The fact that they are unable to get their drivers further up the grid in qualifying is putting them in a precarious situation having to battle past other cars especially when it comes to corners at the end of a straight where they bunch up .
I find it odd that they have designed a car which is behaving so badly in comparison to other cars which are using their engines .


----------



## Beebo (27 Apr 2022)

Illaveago said:


> I find it odd that they have designed a car which is behaving so badly in comparison to other cars which are using their engines .



All the experts seem to think that the car they designed looked great in the computer simulations and wind tunnel, but is behaving badly in the real world situation. 
It is almost certainly something to do with the flared skirt instead of side pods. 

They clearly found what they thought was a wizard wheeze in the rule book, but have miscalculated.


----------



## Reynard (27 Apr 2022)

As someone who helped develop full-chassis modelling for racing cars in the mid / late 90s and someone who has done a lot of lab-based testing as well, I'm more aware than most of the gulf that can exist between theory and practice.

Computer modelling (both for structural applications and aero) is brilliant, but it does have its limitations, usually based around the number of iterations the software is capable of, as well as the compromises that have to be made in inputting and choosing the variables. Plus the fact that a computer simulation is very much idealised, which is not the case in the real world.

It's a useful tool, but it's NOT a silver bullet. Unfortunately, with the cap on in-season testing, it has rather become that in recent years. With the inevitable consequences. And that's very much highlighted this season, with such a massive change in the rules.


----------



## Phaeton (27 Apr 2022)

Is the issue that in fact it works too well & it's the knife edge that is causing the issue. If they can learn to bleed some of it off then they maybe onto a winner


----------



## figbat (28 Apr 2022)

The porpoising is one issue but they are also down on straight line speed, which seems to be a PU problem - all the Merc-engined cars are struggling with this. Ferrari are also porpoising but they are going fast.

In terms of strategy, Merc have also played some blinders in the past. We see their bad decisions because we are watching them at the front. And being up-front is sometimes a disadvantage where you have to choose between leading the race or pitting. If Merc pit from the lead you can bet someone would stay out so they can look like they made a bad call, but in fact all they did is make the decision for everyone else.

No doubt there are good and bad strategy decisions being made throughout the midfield and back-markers but we don’t see them or the consequences don’t impact the podium.


----------



## Illaveago (28 Apr 2022)

Reynard said:


> As someone who helped develop full-chassis modelling for racing cars in the mid / late 90s and someone who has done a lot of lab-based testing as well, I'm more aware than most of the gulf that can exist between theory and practice.
> 
> Computer modelling (both for structural applications and aero) is brilliant, but it does have its limitations, usually based around the number of iterations the software is capable of, as well as the compromises that have to be made in inputting and choosing the variables. Plus the fact that a computer simulation is very much idealised, which is not the case in the real world.
> 
> It's a useful tool, but it's NOT a silver bullet. Unfortunately, with the cap on in-season testing, it has rather become that in recent years. With the inevitable consequences. And that's very much highlighted this season, with such a massive change in the rules.



I was wondering if their data was wrong .


----------



## Illaveago (28 Apr 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Is the issue that in fact it works too well & it's the knife edge that is causing the issue. If they can learn to bleed some of it off then they maybe onto a winner



It does look ugly though !


----------



## icowden (28 Apr 2022)

figbat said:


> The porpoising is one issue but they are also down on straight line speed, which seems to be a PU problem - all the Merc-engined cars are struggling with this. Ferrari are also porpoising but they are going fast.


I did see a suggestion that Merc may have focused resources too much on ensuring they were winning in the last two seasons whereas Ferrari have known they have had issues for the last few years and focussed development on the 2022 car much more - hence their PU seems to be blowing the rest out of the water.


----------



## Phaeton (28 Apr 2022)

icowden said:


> hence their PU seems to be blowing the rest out of the water.


Or they are cheating again, I really do hope they are not.


----------



## Reynard (28 Apr 2022)

Illaveago said:


> I was wondering if their data was wrong .



I wouldn't say the data was wrong, but sometimes theory doesn't always translate into practice, because theory is always based on idealized as opposed to real-world situations. And then, of course, there's compromize.

But I wonder if we will eventually end up with a standard profile for the venturi under the car.


----------



## classic33 (28 Apr 2022)

Both race directors have tested positive for Covid.


----------



## Jody (28 Apr 2022)

There's always that other guy


----------



## Phaeton (29 Apr 2022)

Jody said:


> There's always that other guy



Apparently he can't, is Mr Brundle out there, he'd do a good job, missed him over the last few races, hope he's doing okay


----------



## Jody (29 Apr 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Apparently he can't, is Mr Brundle out there, he'd do a good job, missed him over the last few races, hope he's doing okay



What's wrong with Brundle?


----------



## Phaeton (29 Apr 2022)

Jody said:


> What's wrong with Brundle?



I read a report he'd had a heart attack, but not read anything since, so not sure of it's authenticity, gooooes off to Google apparently it was 2016, but I think he's only been to 1 of the first 4 & not in Italy was a surprise.


----------



## Jody (29 Apr 2022)

I thought it was odd that he wasn't around but assumed he may have had a dose of Covid.


----------



## derrick (29 Apr 2022)

As long as they don’t bring back that Irish idiot. 👍


----------



## Red17 (30 Apr 2022)

Good weekend ahead for 2 wheels race fans. Speedway GP round 1 tonight (without defending champion as Russian riders have been banned) and motogp tomorrow.


----------



## Reynard (30 Apr 2022)

And the E-Prix from Monaco is live on Channel 4 this lunchtime - 2pm race start.


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (6 May 2022)

So, this isn't normal - is it?


View: https://streamable.com/4yr9u3


----------



## Illaveago (6 May 2022)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> So, this isn't normal - is it?
> 
> 
> View: https://streamable.com/4yr9u3




Seems a bit erratic !


----------



## Alex321 (6 May 2022)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> So, this isn't normal - is it?
> 
> 
> View: https://streamable.com/4yr9u3




I think he was trying to find out if it steers straight without input (it didn't).


----------



## Illaveago (7 May 2022)

No qualifying for the GP on Channel 4 today ?


----------



## dave r (7 May 2022)

Illaveago said:


> No qualifying for the GP on Channel 4 today ?



Its on early tomorrow, half eight in the morning.


----------



## Phaeton (7 May 2022)

Illaveago said:


> No qualifying for the GP on Channel 4 today ?





dave r said:


> Its on early tomorrow, half eight in the morning.


What's the chance that BBC or somebody else will spout the news especially if George or Lewis do it


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (7 May 2022)

Phaeton said:


> What's the chance that BBC or somebody else will spout the news especially if George or Lewis do it



I only watch highlights packages so the entire F1 Season is me avoiding tv/radio and much of the internet on Sundays. Even Youtube can be a sod with spoilers now.


----------



## dave r (7 May 2022)

Phaeton said:


> What's the chance that BBC or somebody else will spout the news especially if George or Lewis do it




My Good Lady is in hospital at the moment so the telly is hardly being used, but I'll have to stay off Facebook in the morning as it will be on there.


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (7 May 2022)




----------



## Reynard (7 May 2022)

Illaveago said:


> No qualifying for the GP on Channel 4 today ?



It's live on R5LSX at 9pm.

Broadcasters providing highlights have to wait a certain time until after the live action finishes - doesn't matter whether it's footy, motor racing or cricket or whatever.

There's no live W-Series either.


----------



## dave r (7 May 2022)

Reynard said:


> It's live on R5LSX at 9pm.
> 
> Broadcasters providing highlights have to wait a certain time until after the live action finishes - doesn't matter whether it's footy, motor racing or cricket or whatever.
> 
> There's no live W-Series either.




Whats R5LSX? Is it a subscription service?


----------



## figbat (7 May 2022)

Reynard said:


> It's live on R5LSX at 9pm.
> 
> Broadcasters providing highlights have to wait a certain time until after the live action finishes - doesn't matter whether it's footy, motor racing or cricket or whatever.
> 
> There's no live W-Series either.



Well there is, just not free-to-air. The whole lot is on Sky Sports F1 (a channel I have as a legacy from Sky HD days, I don’t pay extra for it and probably wouldn’t).


----------



## Reynard (7 May 2022)

dave r said:


> Whats R5LSX? Is it a subscription service?



Radio 5 Live Sports Extra - channel 706 on freeview.


----------



## Reynard (7 May 2022)

figbat said:


> Well there is, just not free-to-air. The whole lot is on Sky Sports F1 (a channel I have as a legacy from Sky HD days, I don’t pay extra for it and probably wouldn’t).



If I paid for subscription sports channels, I'd never get anything done... 

OTOH, a lot of them aren't worth the money, and you can usually find a free stream on the Tube of You for a lot of motor racing anyway.

I grew up without a TV - didn't get one till my 13th birthday - and so turning the radio on to listen to a commentary is a kind of nostalgic habit for me anyway.  Simon Taylor was "the voice of motorsport" for me back then, and not Murray Walker.


----------



## icowden (7 May 2022)

Looks like it could be interesting though. Mercedes look like they are competitive. Red Bull look like they might be on fire (literally!).


----------



## Reynard (7 May 2022)

Mmmm, I think both teams are dealing with the consequences of having tried to be a bit too clever on the design front.

Looks like Merc may have taken a good step forward since Imola (is the performance gain circuit-specific, well, we'll find out soon enough), but RB appear to have potentially shot themselves in the foot. We've gotten used to the cars being incredibly reliable, that so many problems in such a short space of time seems indicative of a fundamental flaw (or flaws) somewhere in the system.

As for Carlos Sainz... Ho hum...


----------



## Phaeton (7 May 2022)

dave r said:


> My Good Lady is in hospital at the moment



Sorry to hear that hope she gets well soon.


----------



## Phaeton (7 May 2022)

Reynard said:


> Mmmm, I think both teams are dealing with the consequences of having tried to be a bit too clever on the design front.
> 
> Looks like Merc may have taken a good step forward since Imola (is the performance gain circuit-specific, well, we'll find out soon enough), but RB appear to have potentially shot themselves in the foot. We've gotten used to the cars being incredibly reliable, that so many problems in such a short space of time seems indicative of a fundamental flaw (or flaws) somewhere in the system.
> 
> As for Carlos Sainz... Ho hum...



I wonder if RB's engine problems are due to them now having key's to the cupboard, before Honda would have put the brakes on some stuff as it was their reputation


----------



## Illaveago (7 May 2022)

dave r said:


> Its on early tomorrow, half eight in the morning.



Bu993r! We will be doing a boot sale !

When is the race on ?


----------



## Illaveago (7 May 2022)

Reynard said:


> Mmmm, I think both teams are dealing with the consequences of having tried to be a bit too clever on the design front.
> 
> Looks like Merc may have taken a good step forward since Imola (is the performance gain circuit-specific, well, we'll find out soon enough), but RB appear to have potentially shot themselves in the foot. We've gotten used to the cars being incredibly reliable, that so many problems in such a short space of time seems indicative of a fundamental flaw (or flaws) somewhere in the system.
> 
> As for Carlos Sainz... Ho hum...



Gout?


----------



## Reynard (7 May 2022)

Illaveago said:


> Bu993r! We will be doing a boot sale !
> 
> When is the race on ?



8 pm, Radio 5 Live, highlights half past midnight on Ch4.


----------



## Reynard (7 May 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I wonder if RB's engine problems are due to them now having key's to the cupboard, before Honda would have put the brakes on some stuff as it was their reputation



That's entirely plausible.

And Adrian Newey has always been something of a tinkerer...


----------



## dave r (7 May 2022)

Illaveago said:


> Bu993r! We will be doing a boot sale !
> 
> When is the race on ?



Highlights, Channel Four at Half past midnight


----------



## Illaveago (9 May 2022)

dave r said:


> Highlights, Channel Four at Half past midnight



Oh ah! After a sleepless night, a morning at a boot sale and then servicing 2 mountain bikes in the afternoon. If I had stayed up to 12.30 I would probably fallen asleep at the start .


----------



## dave r (9 May 2022)

Illaveago said:


> Oh ah! After a sleepless night, a morning at a boot sale and then servicing 2 mountain bikes in the afternoon. If I had stayed up to 12.30 I would probably fallen asleep at the start .



And not on All 4 yet, I'd hoped to watch it over breakfast.


----------



## Illaveago (9 May 2022)

I have just read 2 reports on a certain teams performance comparing their drivers making out that there is a huge void between them . From the results I see that they finished one behind the other . Sometimes luck can play a part as to when tyre changes and safety cars occur and so can affect how one driver may gain whilst another loses. I think the press are just trying to stir things up !
It doesn't work on me as I see what they are up to and will ignore anything they write .


----------



## Phaeton (9 May 2022)

Illaveago said:


> I have just read 2 reports on a certain teams performance comparing their drivers making out that there is a huge void between them . From the results I see that they finished one behind the other . Sometimes luck can play a part as to when tyre changes and safety cars occur and so can affect how one driver may gain whilst another loses. I think the press are just trying to stir things up !
> It doesn't work on me as I see what they are up to and will ignore anything they write .



Not read it & don't read much media as most of it is trying to stir up something that isn't there just to try to make the mundane interesting & sell the advertising.

2 teammates finished behind each other, one appears to be on a skill & commitment level, the other was on strategy & a fortunate safety car, although they were willing to roll the dice in the hope of that safety car. But either way I think the pressure is really only on 1 of the 4 drivers & I also think that is mainly in his own head, if he can conquer that demon he may make the step required, but he only has a couple more races to be able to do that before he takes on a supporting role.


----------



## icowden (9 May 2022)

Anyone else find the coverage a little grating? I found it very hard to take to the Yankee Nascar driver having such a big role in the presenting bundle and some of her pieces to camera for filler were frankly painful.

I did find it amusing that the way Sky have packaged the titles presentation builds up through the drivers to indicate a Hamilton / Verstappen rematch which is not on the cards by the look of it. I enjoyed the race but a shame Merc couldn't get back their Friday pace.


----------



## Phaeton (9 May 2022)

icowden said:


> Anyone else find the coverage a little grating? I found it very hard to take to the Yankee Nascar driver having such a big role in the presenting bundle and some of her pieces to camera for filler were frankly painful.
> 
> I did find it amusing that the way Sky have packaged the titles presentation builds up through the drivers to indicate a Hamilton / Verstappen rematch which is not on the cards by the look of it. I enjoyed the race but a shame Merc couldn't get back their Friday pace.



I was going to question your comment about Nascar wasn't aware she had driven in the series as she's better known for Indy cars, but she is a she & not a he, (although the wrong ethnic group she'll have to do), she is a yank, the race was in yankieland & F1 is trying to sell F1 to the yanks, why would they not have her says the cynic in me.


----------



## Jody (9 May 2022)

I thought she was enthusiastic and knew what was going on. 

Reasonable race I thought. Not the most action packed but a decent watch.


----------



## icowden (9 May 2022)

Jody said:


> I thought she was enthusiastic and knew what was going on.
> Reasonable race I thought. Not the most action packed but a decent watch.


I agree, but I still found her a bit grating, and I didn't like the way they tried to use her as an actor to do some of the pre-recorded pieces to camera. She isn't one, so let her talk about what she actually knows about rather than portraying her as a wooden dollybird. It had that incredibly American feel


----------



## figbat (9 May 2022)

I thought Danica was a good pundit. However I hated the way the race was presented. I realise they are playing to a market but it really grates with me that they set it up in a way that simply being there was a primary objective, with the racing being background noise. Evidence the swimming pools, fake yachts, cabanas etc where people are lazing about within spitting distance of a Formula 1 race but apparently ignoring it. The grid walk was the same - celebs there to be seen but not wanting to be spoken to.

As for the post-race podium interviews.... well they were insightful, weren't they?!

The race itself? Around half-way through I was reflecting that the supposed objectives of the new car design to get closer racing didn't seem to have worked, with the front 4 or 5 strung out with no competition. Midfield there were close-running DRS trains but then midfield was always more active. The safety car reintroduced some close racing meaning it ended with a bit of excitement, but overall it was more of a spectacle than a competition. And now we can look forward to CoTA ramping up the glitz in competition to Miami, with Las Vegas to come in future...


----------



## Phaeton (9 May 2022)

figbat said:


> I thought Danica was a good pundit. However I hated the way the race was presented. I realise they are playing to a market but it really grates with me that they set it up in a way that simply being there was a primary objective, with the racing being background noise. Evidence the swimming pools, fake yachts, cabanas etc where people are lazing about within spitting distance of a Formula 1 race but apparently ignoring it. The grid walk was the same - celebs there to be seen but not wanting to be spoken to.



Don't think that is anything new, I worked for a company in 2000 that did a lot with HP, we got VIP tickets to be at Silverstone when it was in April, we were guests of Jordan, it was painful as an F1 fan to see some of the people who were in the tent, the amount of food was extravagant, the amount of booze, people were pissed as farts & never left the tent. 

You could walk out of the Paddock Club & straight into the seating area at Priory, you could see them just as they came out of Bridge, into Priory, Brooklands, Luffield 1 & 2 then disappear into Woodcote. I was having to explain, who everybody was, what the format was, how to tell the drivers apart, etc. etc. But at least they came out of hospitality.

Just found out earlier that my boss was there yesterday, didn't even know he knew what a F1 car was.


----------



## figbat (9 May 2022)

Oh sure, corporate hospitality is part and parcel of the sponsorship deals and I have also had my fill at the Paddock Club trough, but the Miami GP turned it up to 11 and televised it.


----------



## Reynard (9 May 2022)

The most I ever got was a tepid cup of tea in the media centre... 

I remember Danica doing FF1600 over here back in the day.


----------



## Illaveago (10 May 2022)

Ooh! I didn't know Dacia were in F1!


----------



## classic33 (14 May 2022)

What'll happen if Michael Masi returns, as hinted at by ben Sulayem, as Race Director and Hamilton is banned from the Monaco Gran Prix?


https://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-...wis-Hamilton-banned-Monaco-Grand-Prix-f1-news


----------



## Illaveago (14 May 2022)

classic33 said:


> What'll happen if Michael Masi returns, as hinted at by ben Sulayem, as Race Director and Hamilton is banned from the Monaco Gran Prix?
> 
> 
> https://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-...wis-Hamilton-banned-Monaco-Grand-Prix-f1-news



The FIA and formula 1 are turning into a complete farce!


----------



## Reynard (14 May 2022)

Today's Formula E from Berlin was a compelling watch.

Looking forwards to the BTCC from Brands tomorrow. And the second FE race from Berlin.


----------



## classic33 (14 May 2022)

Illaveago said:


> The FIA and formula 1 are turning into a complete farce!


The no jewellry rule is easy understand, if you've ever had an MRI or CAT scan. You're asked to remove any metal, before they start the scan.
If it's "hidden" beneath clothing, and they need to perform one, how are they to know, for certain, you're wearing something you shouldn't?


----------



## Illaveago (15 May 2022)

classic33 said:


> The no jewellry rule is easy understand, if you've ever had an MRI or CAT scan. You're asked to remove any metal, before they start the scan.
> If it's "hidden" beneath clothing, and they need to perform one, how are they to know, for certain, you're wearing something you shouldn't?



It's not that . It is the other things and changes they are making . 
An unsafe release from pits shouldn't be . Oh! Carry on we will just add five seconds to your time . They should be forced to come back into the pits until they get it right .
They seem to be coming up with ways in which to manipulate the results of races .
I am becoming fed up with the sport, bouncy cars and especially the coloured bovine team .


----------



## Illaveago (15 May 2022)

Have the new changes to the F1 cars made the desired effect they were looking for ?
From what I have seen all they seem to have done is to change the order of the grid by imposing restrictions to cars using a particular engine to the benefit of other engine manufacturers .


----------



## Phaeton (15 May 2022)

classic33 said:


> The no jewellry rule is easy understand, if you've ever had an MRI or CAT scan. You're asked to remove any metal, before they start the scan.
> If it's "hidden" beneath clothing, and they need to perform one, how are they to know, for certain, you're wearing something you shouldn't?


There's only 20 drivers, theres a huge raft of regulations, surely it's not inconceivable to add another page to declare all jewellery on each race. As @Illaveago & Hamilton says there are bigger issues than to worry about this.


----------



## Phaeton (15 May 2022)

Illaveago said:


> Have the new changes to the F1 cars made the desired effect they were looking for ?
> From what I have seen all they seem to have done is to change the order of the grid by imposing restrictions to cars using a particular engine to the benefit of other engine manufacturers .



Not sure that's quite fair, yes they have closed each bunch up & each bunch is closer together, but the same teams are in the same bunches, Mercedes I think are a victim of their own consequences, they tried something radical & it doesn't at the moment appear to have worked.


----------



## Illaveago (15 May 2022)

Phaeton said:


> There's only 20 drivers, theres a huge raft of regulations, surely it's not inconceivable to add another page to declare all jewellery on each race. As @Illaveago & Hamilton says there are bigger issues than to worry about this.



That is a good point .
The fact that George Russell is already complaining about back injury from the bouncing of the cars. You would think that would be more of a priority as it was their changes which have led to these problems .


----------



## Illaveago (15 May 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Not sure that's quite fair, yes they have closed each bunch up & each bunch is closer together, but the same teams are in the same bunches, Mercedes I think are a victim of their own consequences, they tried something radical & it doesn't at the moment appear to have worked.



I read that one of their problems was down to not being able to fully test their cars in the wind tunnel due to limited time . I'm not sure if it was down to the new rule changes whereby the higher up you finished in the championship the less time you got .


----------



## Phaeton (15 May 2022)

Illaveago said:


> That is a good point .



Which I'm going to change slightly, it's 30 drivers as each has their reserve, however again in the raft of regulations an extra 30 pieces of paper is nothing.


----------



## classic33 (15 May 2022)

Phaeton said:


> There's only 20 drivers, theres a huge raft of regulations, surely it's not inconceivable to add another page to declare all jewellery on each race. As @Illaveago & Hamilton says there are bigger issues than to worry about this.


The rule itself isn't new, its just being enforced a bit more. Hamilton was warned over the ear piercings a few years ago, yet decided to do nothing about them. 
Why does any driver need one watch on whilst driving, let alone three. Or chains round their neck.
Again, only the one driver doesn't want to comply with the rules that everyone else does.

The paper, listing what each driver is wearing, sounds simple enough. But you've to make sure that goes where they go. Who keeps that piece of paper, the team, race control or the medical centre. Or perhaps the medical car, first official vehicle on scene.


----------



## Phaeton (15 May 2022)

Not sure that anyone actually competed in 3 watches etc. as to where this information is held, presumably somewhere each drivers blood group, current medication, medical history, emergency contact, DNR requests, are all held in a central place, the jewellery records would just be along side those.

Maybe it is just a penis length exercise just to prove who controls who, the new guy on the block trying to prove a point, maybe a deliberate ploy, rob him of a title, give him an uncompetitive car, take his jewellery off him, the conspiracy theorist will be loving it.


----------



## classic33 (15 May 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Not sure that anyone actually competed in 3 watches etc. as to where this information is held, presumably somewhere each drivers blood group, current medication, medical history, emergency contact, DNR requests, are all held in a central place, the jewellery records would just be along side those.
> 
> Maybe it is just a penis length exercise just to prove who controls who, the new guy on the block trying to prove a point, maybe a deliberate ploy, rob him of a title, give him an uncompetitive car, take his jewellery off him, the conspiracy theorist will be loving it.


Hamilton wore three, just to "prove a point" in the last race.


----------



## Reynard (15 May 2022)

In the mean time, I'm enjoying some fantastic racing from Brands Hatch


----------



## Reynard (15 May 2022)

As for jewellery, I have photos in the archive I keep of drivers in the late 80s / early 90s wearing a chain with a St Christopher on. Or something of that ilk, really.

So it's nothing new, really.


----------



## SydZ (15 May 2022)

classic33 said:


> Hamilton wore three, just to "prove a point" in the last race.



Possibly covered already. 

Metal causes flaring in a lot imagining carried out in hospital, and ferrous metals are a no-no in MRI. 

I suspect the rule is in place in event of a serious crash requiring hospitalisation. The last thing an emergency team want to be doing is digging out jewellery, especially if the area has suffered burns, as it's affecting an image.


----------



## Cerdic (15 May 2022)

Reynard said:


> In the mean time, I'm enjoying some fantastic racing from Brands Hatch



Me too. Sadly only on the telly this year…


----------



## figbat (15 May 2022)

Reynard said:


> Today's Formula E from Berlin was a compelling watch..



Really? I was there and found it somewhat underwhelming. In fact the whole thing was very uninspiring - no support races, very little off-track things to see or do, and all set up very cheaply. Admittedly you are a lot closer to the action and I did rub shoulders with Buemi as he walked through the public area, but it was all pretty low key - you wouldn’t even know it was happening stood right outside the venue. Maybe it’s best watching on TV.

I did like the venue as a place to visit though - it still felt like a plane could arrive and discharge passengers at any moment.


----------



## Illaveago (15 May 2022)

I wonder if the clamp down on jewelry is due to the electrical power in the case of a crash ?


----------



## figbat (15 May 2022)

Illaveago said:


> I wonder if the clamp down on jewelry is due to the electrical power in the case of a crash ?



I think it’s more to do with medical procedures that may be needed - for example an MRI scan.


----------



## Phaeton (15 May 2022)

classic33 said:


> Hamilton wore three, just to "prove a point" in the last race.



Wasn't aware he actually raced in them, presumed it was a publicity stunt


----------



## Illaveago (15 May 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Wasn't aware he actually raced in them, presumed it was a publicity stunt



He needed to know the time the race finished and couldn't rely on just the one .


----------



## FishFright (15 May 2022)

Illaveago said:


> He needed to know the time the race finished and couldn't rely on just the one .



The first told the time Max's race finished
The second when Russell finished
The third one was for his Keeps appointment.


----------



## dave r (15 May 2022)

FishFright said:


> The first told the time Max's race finished
> The second when Russell finished
> The third one was for his Keeps appointment.



Nice one.


----------



## icowden (22 May 2022)

What a race! Mercedes look like they are on their way back. 
I really enjoyed Max throwing his toys out of the pram...


----------



## Reynard (22 May 2022)

icowden said:


> What a race! Mercedes look like they are on their way back.
> I really enjoyed Max throwing his toys out of the pram...



Yup... he went into full-on "toddler mode" didn't he?  

Shame he can't get a clip over the ear for that...


----------



## classic33 (22 May 2022)

icowden said:


> What a race! Mercedes look like they are on their way back.
> I really enjoyed Max throwing his toys out of the pram...


Not whilst their "lead" driver* wants to retire the car because he made a mistake.

*Who was just short of being shown the black and white flag, and receiving a time penalty for exceeding track limits, again.


----------



## icowden (22 May 2022)

classic33 said:


> Not whilst their "lead" driver* wants to retire the car because he made a mistake.
> *Who was just short of being shown the black and white flag, and receiving a time penalty for exceeding track limits, again.


Eh? What mistake did he make? Magnussen drove into him. He suggested retiring to save the engine for another race as at that point he wasn't confident that they could do anything. His team told him they could definitely get some points with an 8th place. Then it was hammer time.

As for the black and white flag - yes - he was just short of it. That's why he is a seven time world champion. He pushed the car to the limits, got the fastest race time overall and would have had 4th place if it hadn't been in danger of blowing up. 5th from 2nd last isn't bad going.


----------



## gbb (22 May 2022)

C4s F1 highlights, opening with a mock 'top gun' 3 car 'race' with Tom Cruise...silly . Didn't do it for me.


----------



## classic33 (22 May 2022)

icowden said:


> Eh? What mistake did he make? Magnussen drove into him. He suggested retiring to save the engine for another race as at that point he wasn't confident that they could do anything. His team told him they could definitely get some points with an 8th place. Then it was hammer time.
> 
> As for the black and white flag - yes - he was just short of it. That's why he is a seven time world champion. He pushed the car to the limits, got the fastest race time overall and would have had 4th place if it hadn't been in danger of blowing up. 5th from 2nd last isn't bad going.


The car he was driving went to the left, as another tried to get past on that side. The car was "undrivable" in his words.

The black and white flag would have been for exceeding track limits, thereby gaining an advantage each and every time. Which would have been the time penalty that would have been handed to him if he continued.

If he had the fastest race time, he'd have been first. He wasn't.


----------



## figbat (22 May 2022)

classic33 said:


> The car he was driving went to the left, as another tried to get past on that side. The car was "undrivable" in his words.
> 
> The black and white flag would have been for exceeding track limits, thereby gaining an advantage each and every time. Which would have been the time penalty that would have been handed to him if he continued.
> 
> If he had the fastest race time, he'd have been first. He wasn't.



On the first lap, on cold tyres, anybody going around the outside is going to have to be ready for some understeer from the other car. Kevin cut it too close and Lewis did nothing wrong, as concluded by the stewards.

Going to the limit is part of racing - they all do it; get away with as much as you can without getting penalised. Marginal gains.

And Lewis can have the fastest race time but not win, since he started way back from the front, so he had to drive further than the front row guys to complete the race. P5 (almost P4) from his starting position and with the first lap puncture is one hell of a recovery, in an ‘undriveable’ car.


----------



## derrick (22 May 2022)

gbb said:


> C4s F1 highlights, opening with a mock 'top gun' 3 car 'race' with Tom Cruise...silly . Didn't do it for me.



They do seem to have lost the plot.


----------



## Reynard (22 May 2022)

I'd rather see those cars racing for real in the Porsche Cup.

Which you'll get to see at Thruxton next Sunday.


----------



## Phaeton (22 May 2022)

Reynard said:


> Which you'll get to see at Thruxton next Sunday.



They'll be a better race than the procession at Monaco


----------



## Reynard (22 May 2022)

Phaeton said:


> They'll be a better race than the procession at Monaco



Undoubtedly.  I shall be watching, as ever.

But _tradition_...


----------



## dave r (22 May 2022)

gbb said:


> C4s F1 highlights, opening with a mock 'top gun' 3 car 'race' with Tom Cruise...silly . Didn't do it for me.



Yes, I wasn't impressed either, I watch the Fi highlights program because I want to watch the race not watch the presenters playing silly bugers.


----------



## Illaveago (23 May 2022)

From what I saw on Ch4 highlights it seemed as though Magnussen did a Verstappen at Silverstone by steering into Lewis . It looked opposite to what my son had said what happened .
I expect that Lewis was thinking that having to complete the lap with a flat tyre and restarting at the back on a circuit which was difficult to overtake on it seemed the right option .


----------



## Phaeton (23 May 2022)

https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/12619138/spanish-grand-prix-highlights

I'm not sure who was at fault if you watch the above from about 35 seconds, Lewis has the inside line is well ahead, Kevin tries to go around the outside, it's difficult to see but I didn't see Lewis moving left, it was the slightest of touches.

I'm not convince Mercedes are back despite all the hype, they are still clearly the 3rd team, I think they have made a jump & found 0.5 seconds, but they need to find another 0.5 to be able to compete, George did a great job of holding Max up but that was all he was doing, he was holding him up, had the DRS worked correctly he'd have breezed past & George would not have been able to come back at him. There was also the reliability issue towards the end, they claim a heat issue, I suspect it was a fuel issue & if Lewis hadn't of slowed down he'd have run out of fuel.

As to Red Bull it appears they caused their own problems, reading between the lines, they tried to move a few grams of weight from up top of the car DRS area down lower for more stability & they went the wrong side of the sharp edge & lost reliability, in years gone by they would have tested it extensively in the wind tunnel first to find this weakness. But a great job of the tacitions to be able to come up with a way for Max to drive around George on traction & not DRS.

As to whether RB should have let Sergio win as it's only round 6, that's a hard one, he is the defacto No2, he's doing a better job than any other Max No2, if that's not the role he wants to play then he needs to look elsewhere, but can RB afford to piss him off that much as nobody else has managed to get as close to Max in a car designed exclusively for Max. It leaves a nasty taste, but if Max ended up losing this years championship on less than 5 points they would never have forgiven themselves.


----------



## dave r (23 May 2022)

Phaeton said:


> https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/12619138/spanish-grand-prix-highlights
> 
> I'm not sure who was at fault if you watch the above from about 35 seconds, Lewis has the inside line is well ahead, Kevin tries to go around the outside, it's difficult to see but I didn't see Lewis moving left, it was the slightest of touches.
> 
> ...



I read an article somewhere that said Hamilton had a water leak, but like you I recon it was more likely he was running out of fuel


----------



## Jody (23 May 2022)

classic33 said:


> If he had the fastest race time, he'd have been first. He wasn't.



55 seconds behind the lead on lap 1. So would have needed a car 1 second a lap faster than anyone to have pulled that one off. 

P4 (without issue) and P5 with as a great result.


----------



## icowden (23 May 2022)

Phaeton said:


> There was also the reliability issue towards the end, they claim a heat issue, I suspect it was a fuel issue & if Lewis hadn't of slowed down he'd have run out of fuel.


So although they told the press and drivers that water was leaking onto the power unit, and although Russell has asked slightly earlier in the race why he was getting overheating warnings despite being in clear air, despite the former f1 driver commentators speculating that Mercedes had been caught out a little by the heat and might have been a bit marginal with their cooling options for better performance, and despite both drivers getting the warning even though Hamilton would have had more fuel due to his slow lap with the puncture, you think it was a fuel issue - on both cars?


----------



## Phaeton (23 May 2022)

icowden said:


> So although they told the press and drivers that water was leaking onto the power unit, and although Russell has asked slightly earlier in the race why he was getting overheating warnings despite being in clear air, despite the former f1 driver commentators speculating that Mercedes had been caught out a little by the heat and might have been a bit marginal with their cooling options for better performance, and despite both drivers getting the warning even though Hamilton would have had more fuel due to his slow lap with the puncture, you think it was a fuel issue - on both cars?



Being a bit argumentative & confrontational currently aren't we?

Just like yourself I have an opinion, just like yourself it could be wrong, but Russell's overheating appeared to have gone away, IF it had been that serious to have to ask Hamilton to slow down that much & give a place away, it is my opinion they would have retired the car as they would not have risked the chance of losing 1 of the 3 engines they are allowed. 

It is my opinion the more likely cause is they didn't expect Hamilton to have an accident on lap 1, go to the back of the grid & have a very aggressive fight to come back through the field, in doing so using more fuel than they had calculated as they will only put in the tank what they absolutely need to save weight at the start. Ihe instruction was to lift & coast as much as possible to ensure that there was still the 1L in the tank at the end of the race otherwise disqualification as per Aston Martin.


----------



## Reynard (23 May 2022)

There *may* have been a water leak. The instruction to lift and coast is consistent with driving a car with a faulty water pump / thermostat - been there, done that, bought the t-shirt.

But it's equally an instruction to conserve fuel. It's done a lot in endurance racing. It's also done a lot in Formula E, where the energy the cars start with isn't enough to finish the race, so harvesting and conserving energy is likewise second nature. You hear that a lot on the radio, especially if a driver has been over-consuming - or the teams have got their numbers wrong. Because FE is a timed race rather than a given number of laps, it is pretty critical.

So read into it what you will.


----------



## icowden (23 May 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Being a bit argumentative & confrontational currently aren't we?


Fair point. Hayfever is making me grumpy today 


Phaeton said:


> Just like yourself I have an opinion, just like yourself it could be wrong, but Russell's overheating appeared to have gone away, IF it had been that serious to have to ask Hamilton to slow down that much & give a place away, it is my opinion they would have retired the car as they would not have risked the chance of losing 1 of the 3 engines they are allowed.


It's a fine line though - given that the cars seemed to be OK or tolerably within OK until the last few laps - they may have preferred to be slightly risky to get the constructors points.

F1 seem pretty definitive about it:



> Against the odds, Hamilton was actually looking on course for P4 in the closing stages of the race, having pulled off late moves on former team mate Valtteri Bottas and the Ferrari of Carlos Sainz. But an instruction to manage a "DNF risk” – later revealed to be a water leak – by lifting and coasting saw Hamilton concede position to Sainz with two laps to go, leaving the Mercedes driver “gutted”.


----------



## FishFright (23 May 2022)

classic33 said:


> Not whilst their "lead" driver* wants to retire the car because he made a mistake.
> 
> *Who was just short of being shown the black and white flag, and receiving a time penalty for exceeding track limits, again.



Meanwhile their new golden boy gave a great defensive performance and another well deserved finishing position.


----------



## FishFright (23 May 2022)

Illaveago said:


> From what I saw on Ch4 highlights it seemed as though Magnussen did a Verstappen at Silverstone by steering into Lewis . It looked opposite to what my son had said what happened .
> I expect that Lewis was thinking that having to complete the lap with a flat tyre and restarting at the back on a circuit which was difficult to overtake on it seemed the right option .



Hamilton's on board looked like that but not the other camera angels. 

Racing incident , no blame but no flowers.


----------



## icowden (27 May 2022)

So - Monaco this weekend.

Place your bets:

1) Procession
2) Great race!
3) Carnage / wet weather

...

Anyone think the new narrower cars will help? Red Bull might not be as dominant on this one as no huge straights.


----------



## Jody (27 May 2022)

1. Almost guaranteed
2. Doubtful
3. We can only hope (for wet weather)


----------



## Phaeton (27 May 2022)

Jody said:


> 1. Almost guaranteed
> 2. Doubtful
> 3. We can only hope (for wet weather)



100% correct, even the race where Mansell punctured & chased down Senna was only exciting because of Murray Walkers commentary there was never a chance of him getting past.


----------



## Reynard (27 May 2022)

Looking at the forecast just now, I'm going for (3)


----------



## Jody (27 May 2022)

50% chance of showers on a dry track could lead to an interesting race.

Slick gamblers into the barriers. Inters left out too long and getting cooked.

We can but hope.


----------



## Jody (27 May 2022)

On a cynical note. I see the FIA have given another extension to the HAM jewellery clamp down. 

Now going to start the weekend of the British GP. Let me guess, no removal = no race on a weekend they feel he will back down.

If the cynic in me is right, it could massively backfire if he stands firm and they don't let him race infront of the home crowd. 

A fine is never going to concern him.


----------



## Reynard (27 May 2022)

Jody said:


> On a cynical note. I see the FIA have given another extension to the HAM jewellery clamp down.
> 
> Now going to start the weekend of the British GP. Let me guess, no removal = no race on a weekend they feel he will back down.
> 
> ...



If you're right, this might end up in the same way as the whole James Hunt thing at Brands in 1976...

Conveniently omitted from "Rush"


----------



## Jody (27 May 2022)

Reynard said:


> If you're right, this might end up in the same way as the whole James Hunt thing at Brands in 1976...
> 
> Conveniently omitted from "Rush"



A few years before my time.

What was the saga? Ive watched Rush but didn't know anything was missing.


----------



## Reynard (27 May 2022)

Jody said:


> A few years before my time.
> 
> What was the saga? Ive watched Rush but didn't know anything was missing.



Well, I was only 1 in 1976... 

But the short version is, there was a pile-up on the first lap, at, I think, Paddock Hill Bend, where James got taken out. He got the car back to the pits for the restart, but via an unauthorized route, so he got thrown out. Apparently the reason given was that the car wasn't actually on the circuit when the red flag was thrown.

The crowd were furious, and staged a sit-in on parts of the circuit, throwing beer cans and bottles all over the place and shouting "We want Hunt, we want Hunt..." This lasted a fair while, by which time, McLaren had managed to fix his car and get it back out onto the grid. Fearing a riot, he was allowed to race despite a protest from several teams, and actually won. 

Only to be thown out AGAIN later...

And the race win given to Lauda instead. If Hunt had kept the win, it would have changed the whole outlook of the 1976 season.


----------



## Alex321 (27 May 2022)

Reynard said:


> Well, I was only 1 in 1976...
> 
> But the short version is, there was a pile-up on the first lap, at, I think, Paddock Hill Bend, where James got taken out. He got the car back to the pits for the restart, but via an unauthorized route, so he got thrown out. Apparently the reason given was that the car wasn't actually on the circuit when the red flag was thrown.
> 
> ...



I'd forgotten all about that incident. I was in my mid teens at the time.

The one I really remember involving Hunt was the time at Silverstone in the wet, in the days when they were using catch fences where they would use gravel nowadays. There was one bend where it was so wet the cars were aquaplaning, the first one went into the catch fencing, the second into the rear of that one, and then 2-3 more into the rear of those. One of the cars involved being Hunt.

As nobody got injured, it was rather amusing.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9mXWqLjGd8


----------



## icowden (27 May 2022)

Looks like Merc have problems again with bouncing. Ferrari liking Monaco a lot...


----------



## Jody (27 May 2022)

Reynard said:


> Well, I was only 1 in 1976...



Only a few years apart.

Thanks for the insight. I can just imagine a British crowd sitting on the track and getting p*ssed/angry.



icowden said:


> Looks like Merc have problems again with bouncing. Ferrari liking Monaco a lot...



I wouldn't have thought the speeds were high enough to suffer porpoising at Monaco.


----------



## Reynard (27 May 2022)

Jody said:


> Only a few years apart.
> 
> Thanks for the insight. I can just imagine a British crowd sitting on the track and getting p*ssed/angry.



YVW  



Jody said:


> I wouldn't have thought the speeds were high enough to suffer porpoising at Monaco.



It's not so much about the actual top speed, more about the fact that at Monaco, you're constantly braking and accelerating, and so the velocity of the airflow through the venturi under the car is constantly yo-yoing up and down. And since downforce generated is related to velocity squared, that's your problem right there...


----------



## icowden (27 May 2022)

Reynard said:


> YVW
> 
> 
> 
> It's not so much about the actual top speed, more about the fact that at Monaco, you're constantly braking and accelerating, and so the velocity of the airflow through the venturi under the car is constantly yo-yoing up and down. And since downforce generated is related to velocity squared, that's your problem right there...



Lots of teams complaining that the ride is really rough.


----------



## Reynard (27 May 2022)

icowden said:


> Lots of teams complaining that the ride is really rough.



Well, it will be... You cannae change the laws of physics.


----------



## Phaeton (27 May 2022)

Reynard said:


> Looking at the forecast just now, I'm going for (3)





Jody said:


> 50% chance of showers on a dry track could lead to an interesting race.
> 
> Slick gamblers into the barriers. Inters left out too long and getting cooked.
> 
> We can but hope.


I really hope so otherwise it's the usually snoozefest of a Monaco


----------



## Reynard (27 May 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I really hope so otherwise it's the usually snoozefest of a Monaco



Well, there's always the BTCC meeting from Thruxton...


----------



## Phaeton (27 May 2022)

Reynard said:


> Well, there's always the BTCC meeting from Thruxton...



Hope they don't screw up my recording like they did at Brands by swapping channels halfway through Barstools!!


----------



## Reynard (27 May 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Hope they don't screw up my recording like they did at Brands by swapping channels halfway through Barstools!!



It was well-advertised ahead of time.

Mentioned several times at the first meeting of the season at Donington...


----------



## Illaveago (27 May 2022)

I can remember 2 good wet races at Monaco . One was where Senna was chasing and closing in on Alain Prost in his Toleman Hart. The other was when Keke Rosberg led from start to finish in his Williams Cosworth against a field of turbo charged cars.


----------



## Reynard (27 May 2022)

Illaveago said:


> I can remember 2 good wet races at Monaco . One was where Senna was chasing and closing in on Alain Prost in his Toleman Hart. The other was when Keke Rosberg led from start to finish in his Williams Cosworth against a field of turbo charged cars.



If they hadn't flagged the '84 race early, one more lap and Senna's engine would've gone pop. I have that particular snippet from a friend who, at one time, was on good terms with Brian Hart. 

This was also the race that should've been Mansell's first F1 win, but he put the wheels on a white line and *SPLOT*


----------



## derrick (29 May 2022)

Well that was worse than watching an e race.


----------



## Reynard (29 May 2022)

derrick said:


> Well that was worse than watching an e race.



I dunno... There's something unduly pleasurable about watching Ferrari f*ck up yet again...


----------



## Phaeton (29 May 2022)

What a farce at the start, they should have got underway & then if the rain had come down too hard then stop the race. Ferrari are protesting the touching of the pit entry line by Verstappen, I must admit when watching I thought he'd crossed it, he was certainly on it with the front, which means he could have been over it with the rear.

But I still don't like the place as a race circuit, was it 2 overtakes in the whole race (on track)?


----------



## Jody (29 May 2022)

I thought we might have had a bit of action given the weather but it just ended up being the usual procession.

Just been reported that the Ferrari appeal has been thrown out. Bit of a cheeky move by Max but he got away with it. Definitely looked like he was going over the line but the camera didn't show it.


----------



## Reynard (29 May 2022)

Trouble is, Monaco is where the money is, a place to see and be seen...

Hednesford Hills is ain't.


----------



## Reynard (29 May 2022)

The BTCC meeting from Thruxton was quite good. Then throw in Ash Sutton in fine form, an upside down Mini and a Ginetta BBQ and a couple of belting F4 races, and it was a very watchable day's entertainment.


----------



## dave r (29 May 2022)

That was a bit more interesting than usual Monaco race, very well done for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.


----------



## derrick (29 May 2022)

Jody said:


> I thought we might have had a bit of action given the weather but it just ended up being the usual procession.
> 
> Just been reported that the Ferrari appeal has been thrown out. Bit of a cheeky move by Max but he got away with it. Definitely looked like he was going over the line but the camera didn't show it.



Is Masi back on board?


----------



## icowden (29 May 2022)

Missed Monaco, but it doesn't look like I missed much. Just everyone having to follow Alonso round and Ferrari messing up their strategy.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (29 May 2022)

derrick said:


> Is Masi back on board?



I don't think Max won did he?


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (30 May 2022)

Alonso going out of his way to mess with Hamilton's head was my highlight


----------



## Illaveago (30 May 2022)

I don't see why they didn't start the race behind the safety car and did 2 laps like they did at Spa ? 

It worked well there .


----------



## Illaveago (30 May 2022)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> Alonso going out of his way to mess with Hamilton's head was my highlight



It backfired though and put Ocon 2 places further back !


----------



## Phaeton (30 May 2022)

Illaveago said:


> It backfired though and put Ocon 2 places further back !



Or was that the real reason it was done, I know Alonso is not a good team player but I get the impression he's not too fond of Ocon, maybe he's looking to get Gasly moved there.


----------



## matticus (30 May 2022)

I had the benefit of watching the highlights ... which made for quite an entertaining program! There was real drama to the tyre decisions, and drivers tip-toeing around.
Of course a race that starts wet and ends almost bone-dry is slightly disappointing ... but there were still a few thrills.

If you don't enjoy the spectacle of F1 cars racing round someones bedroom a cramped seaside tax-haven with unpredictable grip levels ... well I guess yesterday was not for you.


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (5 Jun 2022)

Alonso to McLaren?


----------



## Phaeton (5 Jun 2022)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> Alonso to McLaren?



I fear although Ricciardo has a contract for next year, he may not be driving, it's a strange one, something has clearly changed & he's not the force he was, he was the one who could beat Verstappen in a car designed exactly to Verstappen's needs.


----------



## classic33 (6 Jun 2022)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> Alonso to McLaren?


Aston Martin, given that Vettel has hinted at leaving F1 more than once this year.


----------



## Beebo (7 Jun 2022)

Can the Isle of Man TT still be justified given the terrible death rate?
Three more deaths this year. The latest one being a very experienced veteran racer. High level pro riders from the track rarely enter the event so it’s left to the semi pro street racers.
1983 is the only year in the modern era that no one died. How is that acceptable?
I know it’s personal choice to get on the bike but sometimes the authorities have to step in. 
I’m suspect the authorities on the Isle of Man make considerable money from the event so they have a vested interest in its continuation. But can the racing authorities do anything about it?


----------



## dave r (7 Jun 2022)

Beebo said:


> Can the Isle of Man TT still be justified given the terrible death rate?
> Three more deaths this year. The latest one being a very experienced veteran racer. High level pro riders from the track rarely enter the event so it’s left to the semi pro street racers.
> 1983 is the only year in the modern era that no one died. How is that acceptable?
> I know it’s personal choice to get on the bike but sometimes the authorities have to step in.
> I’m suspect the authorities on the Isle of Man make considerable money from the event so they have a vested interest in its continuation. But can the racing authorities do anything about it?



Perhaps a question for @Dirk who's actually competed there. Me, I think the cost in lives lost is too high.


----------



## Phaeton (7 Jun 2022)

Nobody is forcing people to do this, it's motorsport it's dangerous, accidents happen, just because you guys don't want to do why should you have the right to stop others doing it? They know the risks, they will also believe it will never happen to them, the loss of life is tragic, but they wanted to do it, next you'll be trying to ban all motorcycle racing, as it is by the fact more dangerous than cars.


----------



## Beebo (7 Jun 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Nobody is forcing people to do this, it's motorsport it's dangerous, accidents happen, just because you guys don't want to do why should you have the right to stop others doing it? They know the risks, they will also believe it will never happen to them, the loss of life is tragic, but they wanted to do it, next you'll be trying to ban all motorcycle racing, as it is by the fact more dangerous than cars.



I understand that argument. But lots of things are banned for safety reasons. I’m not big into banning things and wouldn’t want this to be the thin end of the wedge. 
All sports have some event of risk, it’s about minimising and controlling that risk. Track racing is far safer and I see no justification for banning that. 
I’m a big fan of boxing and would hate to see that banned as it is a true test of fitness, skill and bravery. I know others disagree.


----------



## Dirk (7 Jun 2022)

dave r said:


> Perhaps a question for @Dirk who's actually competed there. Me, I think the cost in lives lost is too high.



I wouldn't even start to try to justify it.
It's one of those "If you have to ask the question - you would never understand the answer" sort of things.
Sorry, but that's the best I can do. Anyone who's raced in the TT would understand.


----------



## matticus (7 Jun 2022)

Beebo said:


> I understand that argument. But lots of things are banned for safety reasons. I’m not big into banning things and wouldn’t want this to be the thin end of the wedge.
> All sports have some event of risk, it’s about minimising and controlling that risk. Track racing is far safer and I see no justification for banning that.
> I’m a big fan of boxing and would hate to see that banned as it is a true test of fitness, skill and bravery. I know others disagree.



How do you justify boxing, whilst banning (some) street racing? Boxing is all about hurting the other guy - and you get extra reward if you knock him out! If you deliberately kill someone in the ring there is no sanction.
At least motorsport has no _intention_ to hurt anyone. The vast majority of races - including the majority of IoM races - hurt noone at all. And are enjoyed by thousands just at the circuit, let alone TV audience.
And how about banning high-speed vehicles from public roads? Far more deaths - including spectators sorry pedestrians, children etc.

p.s. you'd never get me to race at the Isle of Man! (although I do enjoy the odd 45mph descent on me pushbike - with no armour) But I know a retired sidecar racer who made a TT podium once. Perfectly nice chap, doesn't come across as negligent, or having a death-wish.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (7 Jun 2022)

matticus said:


> How do you justify boxing, whilst banning (some) street racing? Boxing is all about hurting the other guy - and you get extra reward if you knock him out! *If you deliberately kill someone in the ring there is no sanction.*
> At least motorsport has no _intention_ to hurt anyone. The vast majority of races - including the majority of IoM races - hurt noone at all. And are enjoyed by thousands just at the circuit, let alone TV audience.
> And how about banning high-speed vehicles from public roads? Far more deaths - including spectators sorry pedestrians, children etc.
> 
> p.s. you'd never get me to race at the Isle of Man! (although I do enjoy the odd 45mph descent on me pushbike - with no armour) But I know a retired sidecar racer who made a TT podium once. Perfectly nice chap, doesn't come across as negligent, or having a death-wish.



You would be charged with Murder and tried for same.


----------



## Beebo (7 Jun 2022)

matticus said:


> How do you justify boxing, whilst banning (some) street racing? Boxing is all about hurting the other guy - and you get extra reward if you knock him out! If you deliberately kill someone in the ring there is no sanction.
> At least motorsport has no _intention_ to hurt anyone. The vast majority of races - including the majority of IoM races - hurt noone at all. And are enjoyed by thousands just at the circuit, let alone TV audience.
> And how about banning high-speed vehicles from public roads? Far more deaths - including spectators sorry pedestrians, children etc.
> 
> p.s. you'd never get me to race at the Isle of Man! (although I do enjoy the odd 45mph descent on me pushbike - with no armour) But I know a retired sidecar racer who made a TT podium once. Perfectly nice chap, doesn't come across as negligent, or having a death-wish.



I don’t want to get into a “my sport is safer than your sport” debate. 
I have no issue with motorsport, but a single event which has multiple deaths every year seems odd to me. Especially as it’s clearly impossible to introduce any meaningful safety precautions to the track. 
If there was a particular boxing tournament where fighters died far more regularly than any other event I would question why.


----------



## matticus (7 Jun 2022)

Bonefish Blues said:


> You would be charged with Murder and tried for same.



OK: substitute "_killed while delibeartely punching him in the head_"


----------



## matticus (7 Jun 2022)

Beebo said:


> I don’t want to get into a “my sport is safer than your sport” debate.
> I have no issue with motorsport, but a single event which has multiple deaths every year seems odd to me. Especially as it’s clearly impossible to introduce any meaningful safety precautions to the track.
> If there was a particular boxing tournament where fighters died far more regularly than any other event I would question why.



I believe pro boxers suffer dementia (and other long-term head-injury effects) in comparable numbers, if not larger. Seems inevitable in the sport of hit-me-in-the-head.

I know this is all apples-vs-pears stuff, so there can be no correct/perfect answers; but I'm interested in your view. And you did open this can-of-worms, so expect _some _cross-examination :-)


----------



## Beebo (7 Jun 2022)

matticus said:


> I believe pro boxers suffer dementia (and other long-term head-injury effects) in comparable numbers, if not larger. Seems inevitable in the sport of hit-me-in-the-head.
> 
> I know this is all apples-vs-pears stuff, so there can be no correct/perfect answers; but I'm interested in your view. And you did open this can-of-worms, so expect _some _cross-examination :-)



It’s true. And plenty of people want to ban boxing. 

Boxing is all about hitting and not being hit, the best boxers tend to be the ones who are good at not getting hit. And dementia appears to be a side effect. 

But I see pro boxing as being about as safe as it can be without including a head guard. Maybe with modern science the fighters will have to change their sparring methods so that they suffer less head shots in practice. It’s very rare for a novice to go in the ring with a champion. They try to balance out the matches as no one wants to watch a one sided fight. The refs are there to protect the fighters and often get abuse for stopping fights too soon. All fighters are inspected by a doctor as soon as they finish a fight. 

MMA is a far more brutal sport, which I don’t enjoy watching. But I do enjoy watching a highly skilled boxer. 

I don’t think you will ever stop deaths and i would hate to ban all potentially dangerous sports. 
I ran a 10k race once and a chap died at around half way as I ran past. We will never eliminate deaths in sport but we should be seeking to reduce them where possible. 

Anyway. Back to motorsport.


----------



## Phaeton (7 Jun 2022)

> Organisers have now confirmed that 52-year-old Norther Irish racer Morgan, a veteran of the TT who’d made his 80th start on Monday, died in the accident.


The man was 52 years old, he was competing in his 80th race on the island & potentially many more elsewhere (I do not know) but he knew the risks & I'm sure in those 79 other attempts he got very close on a few of them & got away with it, unfortunately on this occasion he didn't. Yes it's tragic the loss of life, but the other side is the awesome skill these riders show, it's an amazing spectacle that I've only seen once 50 years ago, so please don't ban it before I get back before I'm too old.


----------



## Reynard (7 Jun 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Nobody is forcing people to do this, it's motorsport it's dangerous, accidents happen, just because you guys don't want to do why should you have the right to stop others doing it? They know the risks, they will also believe it will never happen to them, the loss of life is tragic, but they wanted to do it, next you'll be trying to ban all motorcycle racing, as it is by the fact more dangerous than cars.



This.

"Motorsport is Dangerous" is printed on every single ticket issued. And on press passes. As a pro photographer working down on the fenceline, I was effectively signing away any liability. Basically, if I got flattened by an escaped car, then it was my fault for being there. Anyone involved trackside i.e. drivers, riders, marshals and media know the risks. But we do it because it's a passion. You can't just expect us to simply turn that passion off.

The TT is more than just a bike race. It's a whole culture and mindset. And a real rich history behind it. I'm not so into bikes, but historically, there were also similar events for cars - the Mille Miglia and the Targa Florio to name but two, dating back to the earliest days of motor racing. They did come to an end in the 1970s, mainly because the cars in the headline classes got far too big and powerful for the roads they raced on. Think Le Mans-type prototypes on UK A and B roads and you kind of get the idea. There's plenty of interesting reading around those road races - think Moss and Jenkinson... If you can get hold of a copy, I highly recommend "From Starting Grid to Checquered Flag" by Paul Frere, which is contemporary to that.

It's less clear cut with bikes as to whether they should be racing on public roads, but simply by their nature, if something goes wrong, serious injury or a fatality is the likely result. It's not just the TT - circuit racing, where you have run offs and techpro barriers and all the other safety features - is equally affected.

I should make it clear that I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who has been personally affected by a motor racing fatality. Not a driver error, but a freak mechanical failure that happened in the worst possible place, resulting in the car being pitched head on into an earth bank. It still hurts to think of it even now.


----------



## matticus (7 Jun 2022)

What we may all agree on is that the TT races make for the most astonishing telly! I don't think anything involving 4-wheelers can compare.


----------



## CharlesF (7 Jun 2022)

To change the subject, I have been watching “Race Bubba Wallace”. Initially because I remembered reading about the furrow he caused in 2020. 

I had only read headlines, but decided to watch. Besides the racial aspect with is heartbreaking and uplifting at the same time; seeing how NASCAR works is fascinating.


----------



## Phaeton (7 Jun 2022)

CharlesF said:


> Initially because I remembered reading about the furrow he caused in 2020.



I know NASCAR is a bit agricultural but to call them tractors is a bit much.

To be serious I know nothing of this, so where have you been watching? but if it's about a black driver in the Redneck states I'm not surprised racism is involved


----------



## Reynard (7 Jun 2022)

Late Model Stock Cars might be well basic compared to an F1 car - spaceframe chassis, large V8 (not entirely au-fait what NASCAR are running these days), basic 4-speed gearbox - but they don't half require a great deal of finesse to drive quickly. There's way more power than grip, you're running door-to-door and nose-to-tail, and mistakes tend to be... big.

OTOH when there's a full grid of them heading straight towards you full bore, it's one of the real experiences of motor racing. You can feel that right in your bones. Utterly visceral...


----------



## CharlesF (7 Jun 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I know NASCAR is a bit agricultural but to call them tractors is a bit much.
> 
> To be serious I know nothing of this, so where have you been watching? but if it's about a black driver in the Redneck states I'm not surprised racism is involved


Tiresome predictive text! 🤢 Of course I meant “furore” but Auntie Apple knows best.

It’s on Netflix and called Race Bubba Wallace.


----------



## Dirk (9 Jun 2022)




----------



## Illaveago (10 Jun 2022)

Dirk said:


> View attachment 648339



He died at a racing circuit and not at the Isle of Man .


----------



## BrumJim (10 Jun 2022)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> Alonso to McLaren?



Barcelona instead, I hear. Or is this the wrong thread?


----------



## Dirk (10 Jun 2022)

Illaveago said:


> He died at a racing circuit and not at the Isle of Man .



Incorrect.
He died on a *road* circuit at Tallin, Estonia. It wasn't a racing circuit.


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (12 Jun 2022)

Ferrari doing Ferrari things today.


----------



## Reynard (12 Jun 2022)

Yep, making a sow's ear out of a silk purse... 

The touring car boys also did touring car things today. No one hurt beyond a few bruises though AFAIK, that could've been nasty. And some serious rubber underwear moments in the Ginetta GT4s...

Drive of the day? Charles Rainsford in the Porsche Cup.


----------



## Phaeton (12 Jun 2022)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> Ferrari doing Ferrari things today.



But they did it very well


----------



## Phaeton (13 Jun 2022)

Reynard said:


> The touring car boys also did touring car things today.



I wish they'd stop messing with the channels, it screws up my recording box, missed the first 2 races!


----------



## Illaveago (13 Jun 2022)

Well that was a bit boring GP. Apart from 2 cars having their problems you could discount the first 3 cars in my opinion . There was more action going on with the older drivers . I thought Lewis put on a good show despite his car bouncing up and down badly. I thought Vettel did a pretty good job and so did Riciardo and Norris. 
Verstappen has got it easy. There isn't anyone to challenge him , not even his team mate !


----------



## dave r (13 Jun 2022)

Illaveago said:


> Well that was a bit boring GP. Apart from 2 cars having their problems you could discount the first 3 cars in my opinion . There was more action going on with the older drivers . I thought Lewis put on a good show despite his car bouncing up and down badly. I thought Vettel did a pretty good job and so did Riciardo and Norris.
> Verstappen has got it easy. There isn't anyone to challenge him , not even his team mate !



Verstappen's team mate wasn't allowed to challenge him.


----------



## Illaveago (13 Jun 2022)

dave r said:


> Verstappen's team mate wasn't allowed to challenge him.



That's what I mean! Lewis Hamilton has for the majority of his time had to compete against a team mate. Bottas always seemed reluctant to move over and always seemed to put up more of a fight against his team mate than the opposition . 
If things continue as they are it will be a walk over for Verstappen .


----------



## dave r (13 Jun 2022)

Illaveago said:


> If things continue as they are it will be a walk over for Verstappen .



I think thats Red Bull's plan.


----------



## Illaveago (13 Jun 2022)

dave r said:


> I think thats Red Bull's plan.



Unless Mercedes can come up with a solution it's going to be a boring season !


----------



## dave r (13 Jun 2022)

Illaveago said:


> Unless Mercedes can come up with a solution it's going to be a boring season !



When it gets like that at the front of the field just start watching the mid pack and whats going on in there, its often entertaining.


----------



## Phaeton (13 Jun 2022)

I'm not too sure, I think Perez took too much out of his tyres in the first few laps to try to gap LeClerc, once the Ferrari was out then all the pressure was off, the pass from Verstappen was based on race pace although made easier by the instructions. From that point they both went into conserve the engine mode, there was no threat so why stress anything, I'm sure if the Ferrari's had still been on the track then Perez would have driven completely different. 

Let's remember not since Ricciardo has anyone been able to get within 0.5 seconds of Verstappen & now we see Perez beating him in a straight fight, so much so Daddy Verstappen is throwing his dummy out trying to protect his precious baby.

I was disappointed in Norris, he came over as a petulant teenager wanting Riccardo to move over just so he finished ahead of him although Ricciardo had played the team game earlier & effectively screwed his race up.


----------



## figbat (13 Jun 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I was disappointed in Norris, he came over as a petulant teenager wanting Riccardo to move over just so he finished ahead of him although Ricciardo had played the team game earlier & effectively screwed his race up.


Yeah, I thought the same. Daniel asked why he was being held back, got the explanation of Lando's strategy and dealt with it - obviously and visibly holding back from overtaking him at turn 1 when he was much faster. Of course each driver wants to get their best result but they have to remember they are employees of the team, not the other way around. McLaren get the same points whichever way around they finish and if Danny had been allowed to overtake him he'd have been further up the road.


----------



## icowden (13 Jun 2022)

I saw that Toto felt he had to offer an explanation as to why Russell was ahead of Hamilton again.

Personally I think Russell has a huge advantage with the car as he's spent his entire F1 career fighting with the Williams car, so he's used to a car that is difficult to manage whereas Lewis has maybe become a bit to used to a car that works exactly the way he would like it to. 

That said Hamilton has also not been favoured by luck this year at all and yet again he was one of the few drivers able to work his way through the field.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (13 Jun 2022)

When Hamilton was winning, it was because he was such a good driver, now he's not, it seems others just have better cars. I guess George must have one of those too.


----------



## Phaeton (13 Jun 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> When Hamilton was winning, it was because he was such a good driver, now he's not, it seems others just have better cars. I guess George must have one of those too.


I think that is unfair, he's just explaining that it's a very difficult car to drive & that the window in which it works is very small, it's not him complaining that Russell is ahead of him, it's other trying to stir up the shite.


----------



## figbat (13 Jun 2022)

There does seem, superficially at least, to be a certain stubborn pride about Mercedes... "we went for an innovative design and we will make it work.... one day.... just you watch.... it'll get there... honest...".

How long until they either fix it or bin it?


----------



## icowden (13 Jun 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> When Hamilton was winning, it was because he was such a good driver, now he's not, it seems others just have better cars. I guess George must have one of those too.



Yep - that's the shoot I keep on seeing. Toto pointed out that Russell outqualified Hamilton on the last 3 races as each time, stuff they were experimenting with just worked better on one car than the other. Hamilton's race pace has generally been faster but he has been held back by having to overtake people whilst Russell has generally been in a good position from the start and able to make hay. 



figbat said:


> There does seem, superficially at least, to be a certain stubborn pride about Mercedes... "we went for an innovative design and we will make it work.... one day.... just you watch.... it'll get there... honest...". How long until they either fix it or bin it?


I think because of the budget caps they are having to try and fix it. There is a strong limit on what they are now allowed to do to the car - hence Russell raising the issue of bottoming and pointing out that they can't go 4 years like this.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (13 Jun 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I think that is unfair, he's just explaining that it's a very difficult car to drive & that the window in which it works is very small, it's not him complaining that Russell is ahead of him, it's other trying to stir up the shite.



I didn't mention anything Hamilton had said.


----------



## Phaeton (13 Jun 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> I didn't mention anything Hamilton had said.



Not enough conviction in your own snide remarks?


----------



## ClichéGuevara (13 Jun 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Not enough conviction in your own snide remarks?



That's just a silly reply.


----------



## Phaeton (13 Jun 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> That's just a silly reply.


And yours wasn't?


----------



## ClichéGuevara (13 Jun 2022)

Phaeton said:


> And yours wasn't?



Nope. I'll leave you to howl at the clouds.


----------



## Phaeton (13 Jun 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> Nope. I'll leave you to howl at the clouds.



I wonder why I ever took you off ignore?


----------



## Beebo (13 Jun 2022)

icowden said:


> I saw that Toto felt he had to offer an explanation as to why Russell was ahead of Hamilton again.
> 
> Personally I think Russell has a huge advantage with the car as he's spent his entire F1 career fighting with the Williams car, so he's used to a car that is difficult to manage whereas Lewis has maybe become a bit to used to a car that works exactly the way he would like it to.
> 
> That said Hamilton has also not been favoured by luck this year at all and yet again he was one of the few drivers able to work his way through the field.



Russell is 24. Hamilton is 37. 
Age catches up with everyone. that bouncing is clearly going to affect an older driver and Hamilton is struggling physically.


----------



## Illaveago (13 Jun 2022)

You can't say that lewis isn't trying !

I was wondering if all of the bouncing up and down would cause brain injuries later on ? A bit like heading a football.


----------



## Reynard (13 Jun 2022)

It's not just the Mercedes... If you watch the McLaren from head on, it's vibrating like a pneumatic drill. Russell has a point. And I'm beginning to think that the FIA might have bloopered here. Although of course, they won't admit it.

Because back in the late 70s / early 80s, they were running these cars with massive tyres (which would absorb a lot of vibration) and, later, assorted grades of active suspension, which would trim the car and keep it level.

No active suspension and switching from 13 inch to 18 inch rims on these cars definitely makes for a very harsh ride.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (13 Jun 2022)

Illaveago said:


> You can't say that lewis isn't trying !
> 
> I was wondering if all of the bouncing up and down would cause brain injuries later on ? A bit like heading a football.



They're racing drivers


----------



## ClichéGuevara (13 Jun 2022)

Reynard said:


> It's not just the Mercedes... If you watch the McLaren from head on, it's vibrating like a pneumatic drill. Russell has a point. And I'm beginning to think that the FIA might have bloopered here. Although of course, they won't admit it.
> 
> Because back in the late 70s / early 80s, they were running these cars with massive tyres (which would absorb a lot of vibration) and, later, assorted grades of active suspension, which would trim the car and keep it level.
> 
> No active suspension and switching from 13 inch to 18 inch rims on these cars definitely makes for a very harsh ride.



But as it's not all cars suffering to the same extent, and they all operate to the same rules, why should the ones that got it right effectively lose their advantage over those that got it wrong?


----------



## Reynard (13 Jun 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> But as it's not all cars suffering to the same extent, and they all operate to the same rules, why should the ones that got it right effectively lose their advantage over those that got it wrong?



To be honest, if you look closely at the cars, no one has really "got it right". Mechanical failures, bits of bodywork flying off / not working. It's not just Mercedes with problems.

I'm looking at this with my automotive engineer's hat on. The way the rules are panning out, is that we're seeing most of the downsides of ground effects and not much in terms of the positives.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (13 Jun 2022)

Reynard said:


> To be honest, if you look closely at the cars, no one has really "got it right". Mechanical failures, bits of bodywork flying off / not working. It's not just Mercedes with problems.
> 
> I'm looking at this with my automotive engineer's hat on. The way the rules are panning out, is that we're seeing most of the downsides of ground effects and not much in terms of the positives.



Some have got it 'much less wrong' than others though, so it amounts to the same thing.

Can those getting a bumpy ride adjust the height to minimise it? That could encourage those not suffering as much to adjust theirs, and still maintain the advantage they've earned.

I accept that would slow them down. but you'd think engineers of their experience and pay grades would have factored in all options.


----------



## classic33 (13 Jun 2022)

Reynard said:


> To be honest, if you look closely at the cars, no one has really "got it right". Mechanical failures, bits of bodywork flying off / not working. It's not just Mercedes with problems.
> 
> I'm looking at this with my automotive engineer's hat on. The way the rules are panning out, is that we're seeing most of the downsides of ground effects and not much in terms of the positives.


As shown to Toto yesterday, the floor of the Mercedes is flexing more than any other car, on track yesterday.
There's other issues they seem to have that the other teams don't.


----------



## icowden (13 Jun 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> But as it's not all cars suffering to the same extent, and they all operate to the same rules, why should the ones that got it right effectively lose their advantage over those that got it wrong?


That's essentially Horner's point. Our car is working fine so nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah to our competitors. Mercedes have gone one route and they don't seem to have a way out of it.


----------



## Reynard (13 Jun 2022)

The thing is, in motor racing, you're always trying to push the boundaries. It's an arms race, but in terms of chassis and aero. If everyone thought the same way, we may as well go to a single spec chassis. Part of the problem, as I've said up-thread, is a lack of testing. Solutions that look good on paper (or a simulation) may not necessarily be so good in practice. I've experience there, looking at the correlation between simulations and and practical applications.

As far as the Merc floor is concerned, it's a good way of generating downforce. As the speed increases, so does the downforce, which makes the edges of the floor form a "seal" with the track surface. It works much like the old side-skirts used to do on the original ground effect cars. The issue there is that it seems to be *too* effective at times. Again, as I said up-thread, the relationship between velocity and downforce is squared, so a small change in velocity will lead to big changes in downforce.

Christian Horner is in danger of the old "what goes up, must come down" because Red Bull have their own technical problems as well. DRS failures and fuel feed issues. Max is already down an engine - something he's conveniently glossing over right now.

Compared to BOTH the Red Bull and the Ferrari, the Merc might have its pogo-ing problems, but, touch wood, the car's been pretty reliable so far. This could potentially be a massive advantage for them later in the year when other teams around them are going to have to start taking penalties for components. It's no point having a fast car if it keeps breaking down.


----------



## Illaveago (13 Jun 2022)

icowden said:


> That's essentially Horner's point. Our car is working fine so nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah to our competitors. Mercedes have gone one route and they don't seem to have a way out of it.



They had to back off yesterday when one car broke it's rear spoiler as they were using the same type .


----------



## classic33 (13 Jun 2022)

I think that the "break in the racing" has come just at the right time for Hamilton. He can focus on his role as producer in the latest Brad Pitt film.


----------



## classic33 (13 Jun 2022)

Not the first time it's been raised this year.

https://www.news24.com/sport/motors...-brad-pitt-working-on-f1-film-script-20220612


_"Lewis Hamilton is involved in the production of a Top Gun-style feature film about Formula 1 that will star Brad Pitt.

Reports from Baku suggest the movie will be produced by Joseph Kosinski and Jerry Bruckheimer, who were behind the popular Top Gun sequel."_


----------



## Phaeton (14 Jun 2022)

Illaveago said:


> They had to back off yesterday when one car broke it's rear spoiler as they were using the same type .


This part of the secretive nature of F1, Perez's wing was not flexing & only Max has issues opening & closing it, which leads me to think they are using 2 different systems on the cars. I new lighter but currently more problematic one on Verstappen & the heavier more reliable on Perez's, we might be only talking grams here, but moving that from the top of the wing to below COG could make a difference. I'm quite surprised that other teams didn't ask the FIA to investigate the amount of flex, normally it's millimetres, his was flapping all over the place.


classic33 said:


> _Reports from Baku suggest the movie will be produced by Joseph Kosinski and Jerry Bruckheimer, who were behind the popular Top Gun sequel."_


I didn't know there was a sequel, have to see how bad it is.


----------



## Alex321 (14 Jun 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I didn't know there was a sequel, have to see how bad it is.


It's only been out a couple of weeks. Called Top Gun:Maverick


----------



## icowden (14 Jun 2022)

Alex321 said:


> It's only been out a couple of weeks. Called Top Gun:Maverick


For what it's worth, it's an excellent sequel. Not too much Hollywood silliness, but just enough. Some irritations - like the "enemy country" is never named, and enemy planes are unidentifiable as belonging to any country...


----------



## icowden (14 Jun 2022)

classic33 said:


> I think that the "break in the racing" has come just at the right time for Hamilton. He can focus on his role as producer in the latest Brad Pitt film.


What break in the racing? The summer break is always there, and of course he will have planned stuff to do during it.


----------



## classic33 (14 Jun 2022)

icowden said:


> What break in the racing? The summer break is always there, and of course he will have planned stuff to do during it.


He may not be in the car this weekend, in Canada. Wolff said as much after Sundays race.


----------



## Phaeton (14 Jun 2022)

classic33 said:


> He may not be in the car this weekend, in Canada. Wolff said as much after Sundays race.



Hamilton has said he will be, I suspect that was Toto just being Toto & trying to stack the cards in Mercedes favour, but the pantomime Dame Horner has said no to any rule changes.


----------



## classic33 (14 Jun 2022)

And Mercedes could be in more trouble for "helping" Hamilton out of the car, under parc fermé. Drivers must exit the car unaided, Hamilton didn't and its been noted.


----------



## classic33 (14 Jun 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Hamilton has said he will be, I suspect that was Toto just being Toto & trying to stack the cards in Mercedes favour, but the pantomime Dame Horner has said no to any rule changes.


T'was said in a post race interview, on Sunday, which showed Hamilton struggling to get out of the car and then "walking" away to be weighed.


----------



## glasgowcyclist (14 Jun 2022)

classic33 said:


> And Mercedes could be in more trouble for "helping" Hamilton out of the car, under parc fermé. Drivers must exit the car unaided, Hamilton didn't and its been noted.



Seems an odd rule.

What if he can’t get out without assistance?


----------



## classic33 (14 Jun 2022)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Seems an odd rule.
> 
> What if he can’t get out without assistance?


He'd have been disqualified.
And now there's a picture circulating, showing him being helped out. A mechanic who removed part of the cockpit, U-shaped piece that goes in place after the driver is in the car, was told to stop.


----------



## Alex321 (14 Jun 2022)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Seems an odd rule.
> 
> What if he can’t get out without assistance?


That is one of those rules that is there for safety. The driver MUST be able to get out of the car by himself if he has to do so in an emergency, so is required to do so in normal circumstances.


----------



## icowden (14 Jun 2022)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Seems an odd rule.
> 
> What if he can’t get out without assistance?



It's also there because the driver has to be weighed at the end of the race and there are penalties if car+driver is under the minimum required race weight. If the driver is helped out of the car, there is the possibility for cheating by the assistant secretly adding some weight into the drivers clothing - thus the driver has to be unaided until they have been weighed.


----------



## Phaeton (14 Jun 2022)

Alex321 said:


> That is one of those rules that is there for safety. The driver MUST be able to get out of the car by himself if he has to do so in an emergency, so is required to do so in normal circumstances.



No I think you're mixing up the rules, there are 2, the first is the safety rule that a driver must be able to exit the car in X seconds, but his in not in play here, this is because the car is still in Parc Ferme, it is to stop the mechanic handing over pieces of lead to make the car within limits.

Edit:- @icowden beat me to the punchline


----------



## glasgowcyclist (14 Jun 2022)

icowden said:


> It's also there because the driver has to be weighed at the end of the race and there are penalties if car+driver is under the minimum required race weight. If the driver is helped out of the car, there is the possibility for cheating by the assistant secretly adding some weight into the drivers clothing - thus the driver has to be unaided until they have been weighed.



Doesn’t seem fair then that they’re not penalised for jumping into a crowd of their own pit crew before weigh-in.


----------



## Phaeton (14 Jun 2022)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Doesn’t seem fair then that they’re not penalised for jumping into a crowd of their own pit crew before weigh-in.



I do believe that is strictly against the rules & you often see a FIA official trying to get them to come & get weighed


----------



## glasgowcyclist (14 Jun 2022)

icowden said:


> For what it's worth, it's an excellent sequel. Not too much Hollywood silliness, but just enough. Some irritations - like the "enemy country" is never named, and enemy planes are unidentifiable as belonging to any country...



We went to see it yesterday and I’m pretty sure they state the target is in Iran.


----------



## Illaveago (15 Jun 2022)

Phaeton said:


> This part of the secretive nature of F1, Perez's wing was not flexing & only Max has issues opening & closing it, which leads me to think they are using 2 different systems on the cars. I new lighter but currently more problematic one on Verstappen & the heavier more reliable on Perez's, we might be only talking grams here, but moving that from the top of the wing to below COG could make a difference. I'm quite surprised that other teams didn't ask the FIA to investigate the amount of flex, normally it's millimetres, his was flapping all over the place.
> 
> I didn't know there was a sequel, have to see how bad it is.



I was surprised that nobody got out their feeler gauges to check the gap between the wings on the winning cars . I would have thought that they could have had a good case for them to have them checked .


----------



## Alex321 (15 Jun 2022)

Illaveago said:


> I was surprised that nobody got out their feeler gauges to check the gap between the wings on the winning cars . I would have thought that they could have had a good case for them to have them checked .



Why do you think they might not have been?

There are routine checks both before an after the race to make sure everything is within specified limits.


----------



## icowden (15 Jun 2022)

glasgowcyclist said:


> We went to see it yesterday and I’m pretty sure they state the target is in Iran.



Nope. To be fair, the enemy is anonymous in Top Gun as well. Someone has done some detective work though!

https://www.theringer.com/movies/2022/6/3/23151745/top-gun-maverick-enemy-country


----------



## glasgowcyclist (15 Jun 2022)

icowden said:


> Nope. To be fair, the enemy is anonymous in Top Gun as well. Someone has done some detective work though!
> 
> https://www.theringer.com/movies/2022/6/3/23151745/top-gun-maverick-enemy-country



Thanks.

It would be quite the coincidence for me to be pretty sure I heard them say it was Iran and for this guy to narrow it down to that from the clues in the movie. However, I’m not paying another £10 to see it again!


----------



## Tom B (15 Jun 2022)

icowden said:


> Yep - that's the shoot I keep on seeing. Toto pointed out that Russell outqualified Hamilton on the last 3 races as each time, stuff they were experimenting with just worked better on one car than the other. Hamilton's race pace has generally been faster but he has been held back by having to overtake people whilst Russell has generally been in a good position from the start and able to make hay.
> 
> 
> I think because of the budget caps they are having to try and fix it. There is a strong limit on what they are now allowed to do to the car - hence Russell raising the issue of bottoming and pointing out that they can't go 4 years like this.



I seem to think that the modern cars set up on a knife edge, in a particular way with particular characteristics. If that suits your driving style then great. But if your driving style isn't suitable for the knife edge performance zone of the car you struggle and can't get the car into the zone.


I'm no fan, but I dont think Danny ric is as bad or as far away from Lando as the last two McLaren cars have shown.

The problem is, in season testing or running and development is so limited that if you have a turkey of a car because you have gone the wrong way on something it can be impossible to change in season. So often we see relative performance locked in all season.

I think the Merc is running a set up a good way away from where they would like it to be.... And still is porpoises.... How bad would it be if the ran it at "best"? 

I'm a believer in a fast car looks good and an ugly car is usually slow. In my eyes the Merc looks a dog.


----------



## Phaeton (15 Jun 2022)

Tom B said:


> The problem is, in season testing or running and development is so limited that if you have a turkey of a car because you have gone the wrong way on something it can be impossible to change in season. So often we see relative performance locked in all season.



But did they shoot themselves in the foot here, didn't they do all the testing in the old format & only bring out the car for the last day for the sensational photo opportunity, remember Dame Horner was wanting the FIA to investigate whether it complied with the rules, just imagine if they had, it wasn't & Mercedes had to go back a generation, maybe they'd be in contention.


----------



## Tom B (16 Jun 2022)

Agreed. I'm not really pro Merc in any way (my team is McLaren) nor am I for any driver really. I want a good race and a fair winner.

I think Merc have been on a gradual slide for years and this is just a continuation.


----------



## Illaveago (16 Jun 2022)

I wish Red Bull would have a few more engine problems so that that Horner chappie would shut up ! He's become unbearable !


----------



## classic33 (16 Jun 2022)

Illaveago said:


> I wish Red Bull would have a few more engine problems so that that Horner chappie would shut up ! *He's become unbearable !*


As is Wolff, complaining that the rules are against them. 
He seems to forget that he actually agreed to the rule changes. And actually pushed for the changes.


----------



## Jody (16 Jun 2022)

Tom B said:


> I think Merc have been on a gradual slide for years and this is just a continuation.



The pack caught up to Merc by the end of the last formula and has been fractured again by the new rules.

Always the same. Some winners and some losers. They will all come together again over the next few years. Just in time for the new rules and manufactures to come in.


----------



## Tom B (16 Jun 2022)

Jody said:


> The pack caught up to Merc by the end of the last formula and has been fractured again by the new rules.
> 
> Always the same. Some winners and some losers. They will all come together again over the next few years. Just in time for the new rules and manufactures to come in.



I see more than the pack catching up. Yes they have. But Mercs cars have become more and more picky, or peaky to set up and drive. They even identified it and termed it as "Diva" cars.


----------



## Beebo (17 Jun 2022)

it not clear what the plan is or when it will happen, but it looks like the FIA are taking steps on safety ground. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/61833829


----------



## figbat (17 Jun 2022)

Apparently “_closer scrutiny of the planks and skids, both in terms of their design and the observed wear_” and “_define a metric, based on the car’s vertical acceleration, that will give a quantitative limit for an acceptable level of vertical oscillations._”

So that's clear then.


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (17 Jun 2022)

Attach a landmine under the car. If the car floor touches the track, it blows up. Provides a real incentive for the teams to get it right with the added bonus of making races more interesting for viewers.


----------



## Illaveago (17 Jun 2022)

figbat said:


> Apparently “_closer scrutiny of the planks and skids, both in terms of their design and the observed wear_” and “_define a metric, based on the car’s vertical acceleration, that will give a quantitative limit for an acceptable level of vertical oscillations._”
> 
> So that's clear then.



Why not just use oval wheels !


----------



## Reynard (17 Jun 2022)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> Attach a landmine under the car. If the car floor touches the track, it blows up. Provides a real incentive for the teams to get it right with the added bonus of making races more interesting for viewers.



*BOOM*


----------



## figbat (17 Jun 2022)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> Attach a landmine under the car. If the car floor touches the track, it blows up. Provides a real incentive for the teams to get it right with the added bonus of making races more interesting for viewers.



It would keep them off the kerbs too - no track limits issues.


----------



## Phaeton (17 Jun 2022)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> Attach a landmine under the car. If the car floor touches the track, it blows up. Provides a real incentive for the teams to get it right with the added bonus of making races more interesting for viewers.





Reynard said:


> *BOOM*


They could put 2 on the car & call it the Basil Brush penalty 



View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtxbM7-jAD0


----------



## Illaveago (19 Jun 2022)

I was wondering if the FIA in an effort to reduce bouncing should fit an unopened can of fizzy drink to each car . At the end of the race an FIA official should open each can and measure how much spray he/she gets covered in . Points deducted for the amount of spray .


----------



## Beebo (19 Jun 2022)

Illaveago said:


> I was wondering if the FIA in an effort to reduce bouncing should fit an unopened can of fizzy drink to each car . At the end of the race an FIA official should open each can and measure how much spray he/she gets covered in . Points deducted for the amount of spray .



The can must be opened within 3 inches of the team principals face for additional amusement.


----------



## Reynard (19 Jun 2022)

Illaveago said:


> I was wondering if the FIA in an effort to reduce bouncing should fit an unopened can of fizzy drink to each car . At the end of the race an FIA official should open each can and measure how much spray he/she gets covered in . Points deducted for the amount of spray .



And contain dye...


----------



## Phaeton (20 Jun 2022)

Not sure when C4 coverage is, but just to say I thought it was quite a good race, still too much gap between those up front & those behind, Mercedes did a good job, but despite their bullish attitude they are still in no mans land, Ferrari proved again they have a Micheal Schumacher car, it has to qualify on pole as it can't overtake. But Verstappen is clearly the man to beat, in the ideal world he wouldn't already be champion & this is his year, but you can't re-write history.


----------



## icowden (20 Jun 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Not sure when C4 coverage is, but just to say I thought it was quite a good race, still too much gap between those up front & those behind, Mercedes did a good job, but despite their bullish attitude they are still in no mans land, Ferrari proved again they have a Micheal Schumacher car, it has to qualify on pole as it can't overtake. But Verstappen is clearly the man to beat, in the ideal world he wouldn't already be champion & this is his year, but you can't re-write history.



God knows. I looked last night at about 9pm thinking I'd watch the highlights either live or on catch up but no sign anywhere. Then I had the bright idea of using the BiL's virgin media account to watch it on Sky - and as soon as I opened the Sky app it gave me the full results


----------



## dave r (20 Jun 2022)

It was on channel 4 at 11pm last night, good run by Leclerc from the back of the field into the points.


----------



## Phaeton (20 Jun 2022)

dave r said:


> It was on channel 4 at 11pm last night, good run by Leclerc from the back of the field into the points.



I was disappointed with his performance or rather the cars performance, he had the same problem as Sainz he couldn't get out of the hairpin turn 11 fast enough to then make a difference along the back straight, the number of laps he was held up was silly, but in the end he learnt he had to make the move before the corner on the way in.


----------



## icowden (20 Jun 2022)

dave r said:


> It was on channel 4 at 11pm last night, good run by Leclerc from the back of the field into the points.



Ah that's why I didn't find it. I thought it might have been on a *little* earlier. At 11pm I was trying to get out of Hampton Court having picked up my wife and children from "Six the Musical". Only took 45 minutes to exit a field onto an empty road...


----------



## dave r (20 Jun 2022)

icowden said:


> Ah that's why I didn't find it. I thought it might have been on a *little* earlier. At 11pm I was trying to get out of Hampton Court having picked up my wife and children from "Six the Musical". Only took 45 minutes to exit a field onto an empty road...



That don't sound like fun, did your family enjoy themselves?


----------



## icowden (20 Jun 2022)

dave r said:


> That don't sound like fun, did your family enjoy themselves?


They enjoyed themselves. I enjoyed having 6 hours of peace and quiet for fathers day, even if my plans to watch the race did go t*ts up... 

But yes, getting them home was a pain. Not the best crowd control for the car park, making everyone exit through one gate even though they had two they could use.


----------



## dave r (20 Jun 2022)

icowden said:


> They enjoyed themselves. I enjoyed having 6 hours of peace and quiet for fathers day, even if my plans to watch the race did go t*ts up...
> 
> But yes, getting them home was a pain. Not the best crowd control for the car park, making everyone exit through one gate even though they had two they could use.



That sounds like a good day despite the disorganized car park and no F1.


----------



## dave r (24 Jun 2022)

An expensive cock up

https://www.crash.net/f1/news/1006406/1/silverstone-go-court-over-8m-botched-track-resurfacing-job


----------



## Phaeton (24 Jun 2022)

Dame Horner is making waves about the spending caps, trying to suggest that they will have to sack people to make the spending limit, bet he's not prepared to take a pay cut instead.


----------



## FishFright (24 Jun 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Dame Horner is making waves about the spending caps, trying to suggest that they will have to sack people to make the spending limit, bet he's not prepared to take a pay cut instead.



He won't be the only one this season but I hope the FIA stay strong on this one else the cost cap will be a season long negotiation every year.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (24 Jun 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Dame Horner is making waves about the spending caps, trying to suggest that they will have to sack people to make the spending limit, bet he's not prepared to take a pay cut instead.



I suspect his husband Gerry's not exactly low maintenance.


----------



## Phaeton (25 Jun 2022)

Bonefish Blues said:


> I suspect his husband Gerry's not exactly low maintenance.



But surely she brings her own money to the party & doesn't need to be supported in the life she has become accustomed to.


----------



## Illaveago (25 Jun 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Dame Horner is making waves about the spending caps, trying to suggest that they will have to sack people to make the spending limit, bet he's not prepared to take a pay cut instead.



Will they get rid of Max ?


----------



## classic33 (25 Jun 2022)

Illaveago said:


> Will they get rid of Max ?


Will Mercedes, who along with ferrari, are also complaining about the same issue, get rid of Hamilton?


----------



## Phaeton (25 Jun 2022)

Drivers salaries are not included


----------



## Illaveago (26 Jun 2022)

I'm finding that Christian Horner and Helmut Marko are making Red Bull into the most detestable team ever! 

Ferrari seem to have taken on the roll of Homer Simpson ! 

Is Formula 1 turning into a pantomime ?


----------



## dave r (26 Jun 2022)

Illaveago said:


> I'm finding that Christian Horner and Helmut Marko are making Red Bull into the most detestable team ever!
> 
> Ferrari seem to have taken on the roll of Homer Simpson !
> 
> Is Formula 1 turning into a pantomime ?



Its always been a Pantomime.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (26 Jun 2022)

dave r said:


> Its always been a Pantomime.



Oh no it hasn't


----------



## dave r (26 Jun 2022)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Oh no it hasn't



Oh yes it has.


----------



## Reynard (26 Jun 2022)

He's behind you! 

Anyways, I'm rather enjoying the BTCC coverage from Croft.


----------



## Phaeton (26 Jun 2022)

Reynard said:


> He's behind you!
> 
> Anyways, I'm rather enjoying the BTCC coverage from Croft.



Bugger, Bugger, Bugger & Bugger again, I must add BTCC to my calendar, I do hope all the coverage is on a ITV4 this time


----------



## Reynard (26 Jun 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Bugger, Bugger, Bugger & Bugger again, I must add BTCC to my calendar, I do hope all the coverage is on a ITV4 this time



Yes it is.


----------



## Phaeton (26 Jun 2022)

Reynard said:


> Yes it is.



Phew!


----------



## Illaveago (26 Jun 2022)

That McMurtry car can shift . Goodwood Festival of Speed .


----------



## Roadrat77 (26 Jun 2022)

Just come back from the Circuit de Catalunya (which is a huge disappointment incidentally in terms of spectator facilities) and I'm off to Silverstone for three days from Friday which is the Absolute gold-standard of the tracks I've been to.
Go the GOAT and George and Lando and Alex who classes himself as a Brit apparently. 
As a bloke who followed it through the carnage years of the sixties and seventies I admire them all. Stowe B here I come.


----------



## Roadrat77 (26 Jun 2022)

Illaveago said:


> That McMurtry car can shift . Goodwood Festival of Speed .



Some piece of kit was that.


----------



## Phaeton (26 Jun 2022)

Reynard said:


> He's behind you!
> 
> Anyways, I'm rather enjoying the BTCC coverage from Croft.



Turkington should have been disqualified for overtaking via the chicane


----------



## Reynard (26 Jun 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Turkington should have been disqualified for overtaking via the chicane



His nickname isn't "Teflon" for nothing...  Nothing ever sticks to him...


----------



## Reynard (26 Jun 2022)

Roadrat77 said:


> Just come back from the Circuit de Catalunya (which is a huge disappointment incidentally in terms of spectator facilities) and I'm off to Silverstone for three days from Friday which is the Absolute gold-standard of the tracks I've been to.
> Go the GOAT and George and Lando and Alex who classes himself as a Brit apparently.
> As a bloke who followed it through the carnage years of the sixties and seventies I admire them all. Stowe B here I come.



Whereas I despise Silverstone. Might be fine for the big posh meetings, but it's a pile of poo for the smaller ones. Speaking in part as a former member of the media here, although I haven't been to Silverstone in a number of years now.

Rockingham whips the pants off Silverstone in pretty well much every department. Shame the circuit's former owners were so talented in piddling money down the drain. Although there are rumours blowing around that racing will return to The Rock for the 2024 season.


----------



## steverob (28 Jun 2022)

Reynard said:


> He's behind you!


As long as he's more than 1 second behind you, you should be okay!


----------



## Phaeton (2 Jul 2022)

Not impressed with the Booing, they need to grow up!


----------



## Reynard (2 Jul 2022)

Don't forget the E-prix from Marrakech - it's on next.


----------



## Phaeton (2 Jul 2022)

Reynard said:


> Don't forget the E-prix from Marrakech - it's on next.



Where, please don't say Marrakech


----------



## 13 rider (2 Jul 2022)

Somewhere in Morocco  .Channel 4


----------



## Reynard (2 Jul 2022)

Time for 

This circuit usually throws up a good race, but normally it's in the evening, under lights. That heat's going to play havoc with the battery systems and the tyres...


----------



## Phaeton (2 Jul 2022)

Reynard said:


> Time for
> 
> This circuit usually throws up a good race, but normally it's in the evening, under lights. That heat's going to play havoc with the battery systems and the tyres...



Looking at the track layout it would be far better if in the middle it was a crossroads & make it into a figure of 8 track


----------



## icowden (2 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Not impressed with the Booing, they need to grow up!


Agreed although I can see *why* there is booing. What was more interesting is that both of the Ferrari drivers got a big cheer - Sainz commented how nice it was to be cheered by the British fans. Looks like there is something about Verstappen that people just don't like...


----------



## Reynard (2 Jul 2022)

That was an entertaining Formula E race.


----------



## Reynard (2 Jul 2022)

icowden said:


> Looks like there is something about Verstappen that people just don't like...



Something about him behaving like a spoilt and cranky toddler most of the time? 

He's a lot like Ayrton Senna - the driver you love to hate.


----------



## Phaeton (2 Jul 2022)

Reynard said:


> That was an entertaining Formula E race.


That was a bit of a better race than I've seen before but still struggling with the concept. But still don't like they sometimes think that are in stockcars, too much weaving


icowden said:


> Agreed although I can see *why* there is booing. What was more interesting is that both of the Ferrari drivers got a big cheer - Sainz commented how nice it was to be cheered by the British fans. Looks like there is something about Verstappen that people just don't like...


He does come across as petulant teenager, but he has amazing natural talent, I understand the booing if he was actually doing something wrong (like he has in the past), not just driving. Maybe they think he'll be worried about it.


----------



## Roadrat77 (2 Jul 2022)

Been to Silverstone today for fp3 and Quali' and I'm there tomorrow for the race - can't wait!.


----------



## Reynard (2 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> That was a bit of a better race than I've seen before but still struggling with the concept. But still don't like they sometimes think that are in stockcars, too much weaving



Two words...

Pascal Wehrlein


----------



## Illaveago (3 Jul 2022)

Roadrat77 said:


> Been to Silverstone today for fp3 and Quali' and I'm there tomorrow for the race - can't wait!.



It's a shame they didn't yesterday and avoided all that rain .


----------



## derrick (3 Jul 2022)

icowden said:


> Agreed although I can see *why* there is booing. What was more interesting is that both of the Ferrari drivers got a big cheer - Sainz commented how nice it was to be cheered by the British fans*. Looks like there is something about Verstappen that people just don't like...*



I think there is a lot about Verstappen that people don't like.


----------



## byegad (3 Jul 2022)

I followed F1 for over 60 years. After the fiasco of the 2021 Spa 'race' and the final race of the season I gave up on it. Too much management to get an 'exciting last lap' in the latter, total ballcocks at Spa, for which they awarded half points. 
F1 is no longer what it used to be!


----------



## Bonefish Blues (3 Jul 2022)

derrick said:


> I think there is a lot about Verstappen that people don't like.


Apples and trees and all that, sadly


----------



## Phaeton (3 Jul 2022)

derrick said:


> I think there is a lot about Verstappen that people don't like.



Still don't think it excuses bad manners 

I do hope the rain gods get to play this afternoon & make it exciting


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (3 Jul 2022)

Jings!


----------



## Bollo (3 Jul 2022)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> Jings!



Cripes!!


----------



## Phaeton (3 Jul 2022)

Motorsport is dangerous, it says so on every ticket.


----------



## Beebo (3 Jul 2022)

Seems a bit unfair for Russell. He clearly stopped to make sure everyone was ok.


----------



## Phaeton (3 Jul 2022)

Beebo said:


> Seems a bit unfair for Russell. He clearly stopped to make sure everyone was ok.



Sort of, but the car failed to restarted & we have no idea how much damage that tyre would have caused getting back to the pits


----------



## gbb (3 Jul 2022)

4 laps to go, the best GP ive seen for a long long time. Perez, nowhere all race, now headed for 2nd


----------



## gbb (3 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Still don't think it excuses bad manners
> 
> I do hope the rain gods get to play this afternoon & make it exciting



Normally id agree. As a lifelong F1 fan, its now boring, very rare do we get a proper old style spectacle. But today, we got one IMO


----------



## Bollo (3 Jul 2022)

Tip of the hat to the people responsible for engineering F1 cars (and the halo rulz). For Zhou to be able to go home in anything other than a box after that crash is outstanding.


----------



## icowden (3 Jul 2022)

gbb said:


> Normally id agree. As a lifelong F1 fan, its now boring, very rare do we get a proper old style spectacle. But today, we got one IMO



Yep - *that *was a race! Shame about that last safety car stuffing up Hamilton but still...


----------



## figbat (3 Jul 2022)

icowden said:


> Yep - *that *was a race! Shame about that last safety car stuffing up Hamilton but still...



The safety car stuffed Leclerc mainly - Lewis had an opportunity but wasn’t quite fast enough when faced with a Ferrari and RB on the same tyres; yes his charge on the previous tyres was looking promising but it was no slam-dunk. Ferrari once again made the Keystone Cops look like strategy gurus.

George may feel hard done by, but he left the stricken car on the track - I assume the officials are well within their rights to get it out of the way, regardless of what he told them to do.


----------



## Reynard (3 Jul 2022)

Bollo said:


> Tip of the hat to the people responsible for engineering F1 cars (and the halo rulz). For Zhou to be able to go home in anything other than a box after that crash is outstanding.



Yep, this.

My work is still in the DNA of the current generation of side impact structures. It's days like this that makes me proud to have been involved, even in a fairly small way.

I do swear Jo Bauer hasn't aged a day since I saw him last, though...


----------



## classic33 (3 Jul 2022)

figbat said:


> The safety car stuffed Leclerc mainly - Lewis had an opportunity but wasn’t quite fast enough when faced with a Ferrari and RB on the same tyres; yes his charge on the previous tyres was looking promising but it was no slam-dunk. Ferrari once again made the Keystone Cops look like strategy gurus.
> 
> George may feel hard done by, but he left the stricken car on the track - I assume the officials are well within their rights to get it out of the way, regardless of what he told them to do.


He was unable to restart the car, and return to the pits unaided. It's in the rules, even Toto has said that.


----------



## Reynard (3 Jul 2022)

classic33 said:


> He was unable to restart the car, and return to the pits unaided. It's in the rules, even Toto has said that.



He could have gone back to the pits, got the bits he needed and gone back. But he was presented with a fait accompli by the marshals.

As soon as the marshals touch the car, that's curtains.


----------



## Bollo (3 Jul 2022)

Reynard said:


> Yep, this.
> 
> My work is still in the DNA of the current generation of side impact structures. It's days like this that makes me proud to have been involved, even in a fairly small way.
> 
> I do swear Jo Bauer hasn't aged a day since I saw him last, though...



Name dropper 😉👏


----------



## classic33 (3 Jul 2022)

Reynard said:


> He could have gone back to the pits, got the bits he needed and gone back. But he was presented with a fait accompli by the marshals.
> 
> As soon as the marshals touch the car, that's curtains.


He'd have to get the car back there under the cars own power. He didn't manage that, arriving there on the back of a wagon.


----------



## Reynard (3 Jul 2022)

Bollo said:


> Name dropper 😉👏


----------



## figbat (3 Jul 2022)

Reynard said:


> He could have gone back to the pits, got the bits he needed and gone back. But he was presented with a fait accompli by the marshals.
> 
> As soon as the marshals touch the car, that's curtains.



Exactly - as I heard it George told the marshals not to touch it as he ran back to the pits for some advice. They ignored him and recovered the car anyway. As I said, no doubt they are within their rights to clear away stricken cars.


----------



## Reynard (3 Jul 2022)

classic33 said:


> He'd have to get the car back there under the cars own power. He didn't manage that, arriving there on the back of a wagon.



He could have done, but the marshals took that option away. Anyone with half a brain cell could tell there was going to be at least an hour's delay, which would have been ample time to get back to the pits, collect a mechanic with a starter and go back. It's not like it was the other side of the circuit or that the race was going to resume in the next five or ten minutes...

Usually, the UK marshals are the best, but I think the post chief has to carry the can here.


----------



## figbat (3 Jul 2022)

Reynard said:


> …collect a mechanic with a starter and go back.


Mechanical assistance, no?


----------



## Phaeton (3 Jul 2022)

Although I feel for George, but I think that was just a bit of inexperience, there was nothing he could have done, so why try? I know that sounds a bit harsh, but there are doctors, extraction teams, properly trained people to deal with situations like this. He more than likely would have got in the way, I also suspect there was an element of guilt in his actions, his moving left to try to block Gasly caused him to veer off to the left to collect Zhou, although it was only a slight touch.


----------



## Reynard (3 Jul 2022)

figbat said:


> Mechanical assistance, no?



No. The mechanic isn't allowed to touch the car, but can give advice on what to do.


----------



## Reynard (3 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Although I feel for George, but I think that was just a bit of inexperience, there was nothing he could have done, so why try? I know that sounds a bit harsh, but there are doctors, extraction teams, properly trained people to deal with situations like this. He more than likely would have got in the way, I also suspect there was an element of guilt in his actions, his moving left to try to block Gasly caused him to veer off to the left to collect Zhou, although it was only a slight touch.



I'm not so sure. Gasly was going for a gap that was closing fast. The onus is always on the car behind. If you look carefully, Gasly tags Russell and turns him into Zhou.


----------



## classic33 (3 Jul 2022)

figbat said:


> Exactly - as I heard it George told the marshals not to touch it as he ran back to the pits for some advice. They ignored him and recovered the car anyway. As I said, no doubt they are within their rights to clear away stricken cars.


He got out of the car, to see if he could help(His words), got back in and tried to get the car restarted, which he failed to do.

He did himself no favours arguing in the pit lane, arguing he should be allowed to restart the race.


----------



## Illaveago (3 Jul 2022)

Driver of the day! 
Pah!
Sunday driver more like !


----------



## Bollo (3 Jul 2022)

Reynard said:


> I'm not so sure. Gasly was going for a gap that was closing fast. The onus is always on the car behind. If you look carefully, Gasly tags Russell and turns him into Zhou.



That’s how I read it as well. Russell’s left? rear was caught by Gasly I think and from that point he was a passenger as his car pulled left into Zhou, who seemed to launch off the front of Russell’s car. All so quick though som it’s difficult to disentangle everything.


----------



## Phaeton (3 Jul 2022)

Reynard said:


> I'm not so sure. Gasly was going for a gap that was closing fast. The onus is always on the car behind. If you look carefully, Gasly tags Russell and turns him into Zhou.



He was going left just prior to being hit by Gasly, I'm not blaming him, but if you watch the onboard from Gasly you could see a movement from Russell, then from the overhead onboard from Russell's car you can see him check both mirrors & then put a small amount of left in.


----------



## Reynard (3 Jul 2022)

classic33 said:


> He got out of the car, to see if he could help(His words), got back in and tried to get the car restarted, which he failed to do.
> 
> He did himself no favours arguing in the pit lane, arguing he should be allowed to restart the race.



He was well within his rights to put his case to the technical delegate given the circumstances.

Unlike Max, who doesn't give a flying flamingo about anyone but himself, George did what any decent Human being would have done. And, unfortunately got penalised for it.


----------



## classic33 (3 Jul 2022)

At least they didn't start showing replays until they knew Zhou was alright.

And the "environmental" protestors never made it on to the track. The red flag stopped them getting any camera time.

No news yet on Albon, who was taken to Coventry hospital. Williams Team not willing to talk about either driver, so here's hoping he's okay.


----------



## Reynard (3 Jul 2022)

classic33 said:


> At least they didn't start showing replays until they knew Zhou was alright.
> 
> And the "environmental" protestors never made it on to the track. The red flag stopped them getting any camera time.
> 
> No news yet on Albon, who was taken to Coventry hospital. Williams Team not very talk about either driver, so here's hoping he's okay.



Albon's been released. Shaken but fine.


----------



## classic33 (3 Jul 2022)

Reynard said:


> Albon's been released. Shaken but fine.


Broken arm if some are to be believed. Williams and FIA silent on him.


----------



## Illaveago (3 Jul 2022)

The driver in the crash was lucky that his car didn't burst into flames . It looks as though his car was trapped between the tyre barrier and the fence .


----------



## Reynard (3 Jul 2022)

Oooh, VSCC trials on Top Gear...


----------



## figbat (3 Jul 2022)

Reynard said:


> No. The mechanic isn't allowed to touch the car, but can give advice on what to do.



Article 26.8 of the sporting regs seems to suggest you can’t use an external starter outside the pits:

_26.8 During a sprint session and a race, the engine may only be started with the starter except in the pit lane or the Competitors’ designated garage area where the use of an external starting device is allowed._


----------



## Reynard (3 Jul 2022)

figbat said:


> Article 26.8 of the sporting regs seems to suggest you can’t use an external starter outside the pits:
> 
> _26.8 During a sprint session and a race, the engine may only be started with the starter except in the pit lane or the Competitors’ designated garage area where the use of an external starting device is allowed._



Fair enough, that's pretty cut-and-shut.


----------



## Bollo (3 Jul 2022)

Reynard said:


> Oooh, VSCC trials on Top Gear...



Top Gear? Really? Oh @Reynard I though you were better than that. 😔


----------



## Reynard (3 Jul 2022)

Bollo said:


> Top Gear? Really? Oh @Reynard I though you were better than that. 😔



I only watched it because of the trialling segment tbh, as a mate competes in trials, albeit not in the VSCC ones.  I haven't watched Top Gear properly for years...

Although I found this little gem last night - from the 1988 autumn series. It popped up randomly on a youtube menu out of the blue, and I'm like aaaaargh, I've only been looking for this since like forever...


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bf0JDzyTw2A


Those eyes... About 15 seconds into the clip...


----------



## Roadrat77 (4 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Motorsport is dangerous, it says so on every ticket.



Yes it do - people forget that it's still very risky and only the massive strides in safety reduced the carnage down to the level it's at today.


----------



## icowden (5 Jul 2022)

classic33 said:


> At least they didn't start showing replays until they knew Zhou was alright.


True although I thought it was a little odd that they didn't give any info to the presenting teams who were left floundering. It wouldn't have been so terrible for them to be able to report that 

"there was a serious crash during the start of the GP involving x,y and z - cars are being recovered and emergency services are in attendance - we'll update you with more detail once we know that Zhou is OK. We are told that the incident seems to be a racing incident where Gasly got squeezed between Zhou and Russell causing Zhou's car to flip and go into the barriers - meanwhile a second incident with albon seems to be the result of Albon slowing for the first incident and vettel going into the back of him."

All of that could have been shared without the need to show the footage immediately rather than "well, we don't know why the race is red flagged - hoping to get more detail soon".


----------



## matticus (5 Jul 2022)

gbb said:


> 4 laps to go, the best GP ive seen for a long long time. Perez, nowhere all race, now headed for 2nd



Great stuff - at least in last night's 1h highlights prog form. That Ferrari pass round the outside of Hamilton - you don't see that every week!!!


----------



## classic33 (5 Jul 2022)

icowden said:


> True although I thought it was a little odd that they didn't give any info to the presenting teams who were left floundering. It wouldn't have been so terrible for them to be able to report that
> 
> "there was a serious crash during the start of the GP involving x,y and z - cars are being recovered and emergency services are in attendance - we'll update you with more detail once we know that Zhou is OK. We are told that the incident seems to be a racing incident where Gasly got squeezed between Zhou and Russell causing Zhou's car to flip and go into the barriers - meanwhile a second incident with albon seems to be the result of Albon slowing for the first incident and vettel going into the back of him."
> 
> All of that could have been shared without the need to show the footage immediately rather than "well, we don't know why the race is red flagged - hoping to get more detail soon".


They knew who'd been involved, but didn't have any information on Zhou, other than he was trapped and where.

The teams were also well aware of why it had been red flagged. The car going over the tyre barrier wasn't shown until they knew he was out of the car, and safe.

Contrast that with Haas in 2020, also on the first corner, where replays where shown straight away. They still didn't have instant information on the condition of Grosjean. But continued to show the incident while waiting for that information.


----------



## figbat (5 Jul 2022)

It was obvious from the live footage why there was a red flag - I saw the car on its roof in the background and thought the worst, no surprise about the red flag. One small crumb of comfort is that it peed on the protesters' bonfire and we never really knew it had happened until much later, with all focus on the crash.


----------



## Jody (5 Jul 2022)

Didn't trust the source that was reporting this last night but it now seems to be on all the major outlets.

FIA clamping down on flexi floors allegedly used by the lead 2 teams. Be interesting to see how this one pans out.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/mercedes-shocked-fia-flexi-floor-hint/


----------



## Reynard (5 Jul 2022)

Jody said:


> Didn't trust the source that was reporting this last night but it now seems to be on all the major outlets.
> 
> FIA clamping down on flexi floors allegedly used by the lead 2 teams. Be interesting to see how this one pans out.
> 
> https://www.planetf1.com/news/mercedes-shocked-fia-flexi-floor-hint/



This is serious deja vu for those of us who got interested in F1 40 years ago. Hey ho.

Back then it was all about ride heights and flexible side skirts and suspension that automatically lowered the faster a car went.


----------



## dave r (5 Jul 2022)

Jody said:


> Didn't trust the source that was reporting this last night but it now seems to be on all the major outlets.
> 
> FIA clamping down on flexi floors allegedly used by the lead 2 teams. Be interesting to see how this one pans out.
> 
> https://www.planetf1.com/news/mercedes-shocked-fia-flexi-floor-hint/



The subject came up on my facebook page a few days ago, I can't believe Toto was surprised by this, its normal practice for F1 teams to be playing fast and loose with the rules, I'm sure most of the teams employ people just to study the rule book.


----------



## dave r (5 Jul 2022)

Reynard said:


> This is serious deja vu for those of us who got interested in F1 40 years ago. Hey ho.
> 
> Back then it was all about ride heights and flexible side skirts and suspension that automatically lowered the faster a car went.



Wasn't there a team that had a switch on the car that let them lower the car for the race and raise it afterwards so it would pass post race scrutineering?


----------



## Phaeton (5 Jul 2022)

classic33 said:


> Contrast that with Haas in 2020, also on the first corner, where replays where shown straight away. They still didn't have instant information on the condition of Grosjean. But continued to show the incident while waiting for that information.



Are you sure about that? As I remember it, it was seeing the ball of fire in the background & thinking OH F**! they then didn't go back to it until he was out of the car, like Zhou? That was Sky live at the time.


----------



## Reynard (5 Jul 2022)

dave r said:


> Wasn't there a team that had a switch on the car that let them lower the car for the race and raise it afterwards so it would pass post race scrutineering?



More than one, I think... I've got it in my head that it was Brabham who started the trend, mainly because Gordon Murray was very inventive in that sort of way. Fan car and all that...

Lotus went down a different route with the double-chassis 88 - but that got banned before it even had a chance to run competitively.


----------



## classic33 (5 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Are you sure about that? As I remember it, it was seeing the ball of fire in the background & thinking OH F**! they then didn't go back to it until he was out of the car, like Zhou? That was Sky live at the time.


The drivers were in the pit lane, watching replays of the Grosjean incident. They even showed the medical car pulling up and the driver and doctor going to help.

This time no instant replays available.


----------



## classic33 (5 Jul 2022)

Reynard said:


> Albon's been released. Shaken but fine.


Released shortly after 8pm.
https://www.planetf1.com/news/alex-...sh/?dicbo=v2-1e6dca7c963ecfe98e626c64fafad8a8

No cast on either arm in that picture, but he is looking forward to Austria.


----------



## icowden (5 Jul 2022)

figbat said:


> It was obvious from the live footage why there was a red flag - I saw the car on its roof in the background and thought the worst, no surprise about the red flag. One small crumb of comfort is that it peed on the protesters' bonfire and we never really knew it had happened until much later, with all focus on the crash.



Was it? Did you call the Sky presenters? They seemed baffled as to why the race was red flagged and could only tell us that there must have been an incident.


----------



## FishFright (5 Jul 2022)

Jody said:


> Didn't trust the source that was reporting this last night but it now seems to be on all the major outlets.
> 
> FIA clamping down on flexi floors allegedly used by the lead 2 teams. Be interesting to see how this one pans out.
> 
> https://www.planetf1.com/news/mercedes-shocked-fia-flexi-floor-hint/



Gosh the team whose car was designed to flex the floor but isn't working too well is the shocked that other teams may have floors that flex successfully.

Why else did they want a second stay ?


----------



## Jody (6 Jul 2022)

FishFright said:


> Why else did they want a second stay ?



Because they had flexing of the floor further out towwards the edge which would cause the floor to seal. A side effect of their zero side pod design as there is less support.

The new tests are for chassis flex near the central plank.


----------



## Phaeton (6 Jul 2022)

I wonder how you test something that doesn't happen until the car is in excess of 160mph, especially something hidden away underneath the car?


----------



## Jody (6 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I wonder how you test something that doesn't happen until the car is in excess of 160mph, especially something hidden away underneath the car?



It'd be interesting to know how they do it. Both teams and the FIA testers.

The tolerance is 2mm so there must be a defined way of measuring it already but as you say it only happens under certain aerodynamic load.


----------



## classic33 (6 Jul 2022)

Some teams are using a sprung floor.
Not certain of the benefits, but they appear to be using compression springs.


----------



## matticus (6 Jul 2022)

classic33 said:


> Some teams are using a sprung floor.



Much better for dancing 👍


----------



## Jody (6 Jul 2022)

classic33 said:


> Some teams are using a sprung floor.
> Not certain of the benefits, but they appear to be using compression springs.



At the front of the floor yes, but I don't understand how it can be sprung towards the rear.

Do you have any links?


----------



## Phaeton (6 Jul 2022)

Maybe the springs are being used to maintain the air gap between the floor & the ground, whereas others are using the whole car. So that when the suction breaks the release is violent & induces the porpoising (Mercedes) but using springs it's far less violent (Ferrari & Red Bull) as they take up the flex. No real idea just hypothesising


----------



## icowden (6 Jul 2022)

FishFright said:


> Gosh the team whose car was designed to flex the floor but isn't working too well is the shocked that other teams may have floors that flex successfully.
> Why else did they want a second stay ?


Because they designed their floor to flex within the regulations whilst others have somewhat skirted them and thus potentially gained an advantage?


----------



## FishFright (6 Jul 2022)

icowden said:


> Because they designed their floor to flex within the regulations whilst others have somewhat skirted them and thus potentially gained an advantage?



Hence why it needed massive reinforcement and metal stays .


----------



## Phaeton (6 Jul 2022)

icowden said:


> Because they designed their floor to flex within the regulations whilst others have somewhat skirted them and thus potentially gained an advantage?



But if this was the case then why did RB object when Mercedes wanted to add an extra strut at the rear of their tray to stop it flexing further as they thought that was one of the issues.


----------



## classic33 (6 Jul 2022)

Jody said:


> At the front of the floor yes, but I don't understand how it can be sprung towards the rear.
> 
> Do you have any links?


It was Ted Kravitz, on one of his post race review who mentioned it two races ago. Pointing into a bin of springs, only for the mechanics to pull the bin out of view, and the screen across the front of the garage to stop either springs or car being caught close up on camera.


----------



## Reynard (6 Jul 2022)

Makes me start to wonder whether some teams have indeed been straying into Lotus 88 territory.

I've a mental picture now, where the floor (or parts of it) aren't integral (or rigidly fixed) to the main chassis, which I understand that it should be. So you've got the bottom of the tub, and then I'm thinking almost like the coil springs in a mattress between that and what appears, from the external viewpoint, to be the floor.

If I've remembered some of my dynamics lectures correctly, that would certainly work in damping out the vertical oscillations that result from the variable airflow through the venturi.

Might be barking up the wrong tree here, but hmm...


----------



## Jody (6 Jul 2022)

classic33 said:


> It was Ted Kravitz, on one of his post race review who mentioned it two races ago. Pointing into a bin of springs, only for the mechanics to pull the bin out of view, and the screen across the front of the garage to stop either springs or car being caught close up on camera.



If it was a couple of races ago, I assume they will be talking about the damper placed towards the front of the floor


View: https://www.reddit.com/r/F1Technical/comments/tah0sv/does_haas_have_a_sprung_floortea_tray_what_could/


Maybe it is linked to the chassis flex further down?


----------



## classic33 (6 Jul 2022)

Jody said:


> If it was a couple of races ago, I assume they will be talking about the damper placed towards the front of the floor
> 
> 
> View: https://www.reddit.com/r/F1Technical/comments/tah0sv/does_haas_have_a_sprung_floortea_tray_what_could/
> ...



He was saying it ran the entire length of the car, for those that were using it. A sprung floor, seperate from the main floor.


----------



## Reynard (6 Jul 2022)

Jody said:


> If it was a couple of races ago, I assume they will be talking about the damper placed towards the front of the floor
> 
> 
> View: https://www.reddit.com/r/F1Technical/comments/tah0sv/does_haas_have_a_sprung_floortea_tray_what_could/



Well, my mental picture isn't so far off, Although I'm thinking the whole floor, not just the front of the cat. That damper there changes the frequency of the oscillations, moving them well away from resonance. Which is, quite possibly, what the problem is for some teams.



Jody said:


> Maybe it is linked to the chassis flex further down?


You *really* don't want a chassis that flexes. Particularly in torsion. The handling would be all over the place, as every time the driver accelerates or decelerates the engine applies a torque to the structure. That's because the engine-gearbox assembly is a stressed member, and takes all the rear suspension pick-ups.

The Brabham BT55 was very prone to this, partly as a result of its low-line design. It went like sh*t off a shovel in a straight line, but point it at a corner and it was all over the place.

This is completely different to a family car, where the engine sits on rubber mounts precisely to avoid this issue - and increase passenger comfort.


----------



## Jody (6 Jul 2022)

classic33 said:


> He was saying it ran the entire length of the car, for those that were using it. A sprung floor, seperate from the main floor.



I'd love to know how that works. 

Suppose it will all come clear in the next few weeks.


----------



## Jody (6 Jul 2022)

Reynard said:


> Well, my mental picture isn't so far off, Although I'm thinking the whole floor, not just the front of the cat. That damper there changes the frequency of the oscillations, moving them well away from resonance. Which is, quite possibly, what the problem is for some teams.
> 
> 
> You *really* don't want a chassis that flexes. Particularly in torsion. The handling would be all over the place, as every time the driver accelerates or decelerates the engine applies a torque to the structure. That's because the engine-gearbox assembly is a stressed member, and takes all the rear suspension pick-ups.
> ...



I get torsional stiffness is needed but I'm confused over the wording of what they are doing.

Some teams have up to 6mm deflection in the floor when only 2 is allowed. But it's further back down the chassis. CH's statement on it reads like there is a decent amount of performance gained or to be lost in this design. 

So we'll see how much it reduces the lap time for affected teams.


----------



## Reynard (6 Jul 2022)

Jody said:


> I get torsional stiffness is needed but I'm confused over the wording of what they are doing.
> 
> Some teams have up to 6mm deflection in the floor when only 2 is allowed. But it's further back down the chassis. CH's statement on it reads like there is a decent amount of performance gained or to be lost in this design.
> 
> So we'll see how much it reduces the lap time for affected teams.



They're basically changing the shape of the venturi under the car to accelerate the airflow more and thus increase the downforce*. The springs also serve to damp out the resonant frequencies that causes the unwanted vertical up-and-down movement.

As I said, Lotus 88 territory.

* this generation of car is much more reliant on downforce compared to mechanical grip


----------



## Illaveago (7 Jul 2022)

Reynard said:


> They're basically changing the shape of the venturi under the car to accelerate the airflow more and thus increase the downforce*. The springs also serve to damp out the resonant frequencies that causes the unwanted vertical up-and-down movement.
> 
> As I said, Lotus 88 territory.
> 
> * this generation of car is much more reliant on downforce compared to mechanical grip



Is it a bit like one of those Octopus mattress things ?


----------



## Phaeton (10 Jul 2022)

Hamilton is speaking out about the cheering of the Max fans when he crashed on Friday, although I agree, it would have more credence had he spoken out about the booing at Silverstone.


----------



## cosmicbike (10 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Hamilton is speaking out about the cheering of the Max fans when he crashed on Friday, although I agree, it would have more credence had he spoken out about the booing at Silverstone.



Indeed, last year too....


----------



## Reynard (10 Jul 2022)

Hmmm... Motor racing has always been quite partisan...

I remember the scenes at Monza in 1988 when Senna tripped over Jean-Louis Schlesser* in the Williams resulting in a Ferrari 1-2. Berger won from Alboreto, with Eddie Cheever and Derek Warwick 3rd and 4th respectively in the Arrows. It was the only race McLaren didn't win that season, so you can well imagine...

* Schlesser was subbing for Mansell, who had somehow managed to catch chickenpox.


----------



## gbb (10 Jul 2022)

Never had any love (or hate tbf) for Ferrari cars....but isnt their F1 car a beauty this year. It just occured to me watching the GP


----------



## Phaeton (10 Jul 2022)

gbb said:


> Never had any love (or hate tbf) for Ferrari cars....but isnt their F1 car a beauty this year. It just occured to me watching the GP



It certainly made a nice BBQ today


----------



## Jody (10 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> It certainly made a nice BBQ today



Shouldn't laugh though. Carlos was in a predicament with the flames getting bigger and the car rolling back. Good job he got out.


----------



## Phaeton (10 Jul 2022)

Jody said:


> Shouldn't laugh though. Carlos was in a predicament with the flames getting bigger and the car rolling back. Good job he got out.



Yes I could see him baling & the car still on fire rolling back down the hill & onto the track.


----------



## cosmicbike (10 Jul 2022)

gbb said:


> Never had any love (or hate tbf) for Ferrari cars....but isnt their F1 car a beauty this year. It just occured to me watching the GP



Certainly one of the better looking interpretations of the revised rules. Was a decent race today, nice to see the top 10 mixed up a bit too.


----------



## Reynard (10 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> It certainly made a nice BBQ today



i was waiting for someone to come out with the giant marshmallows...


----------



## Phaeton (11 Jul 2022)

So I've been sat here musing it's a bit warm for that work mullarkey

Sainz leaves the track at turn 1, gets a far better exit as he's cranked less steering on & uses it to catapult past Russell, had that been kitty litter he wouldn't have been able to do it. Now I'm 100% sure even if he'd have pulled in behind Russell then it would have only been a matter of time before he went past, but should it have been a penalty, or as I think it was dealt with as a first lap incident. We saw Alonso actively practising this at 1 GP.

Perez gets punted into the kitty litter after he goes around the outside of turn 4 when Russell with full lock on slides into his rear wheel. Result Russell gets a 5 second penalty, did he deserve it or should that too been dealt with under a first lap incident, Perez certainly had the place should Russell have given up earlier & slowed therefore being able to put the extra lock on.

Albon pushes Norris off the track at turn 3, similar in some sense to the Perez/Russell he's claiming that Norris was alongside, braked slightly later which washed his front end grip out & he just couldn't turn.

Sainz (again) the car was on fire, he was trying to get out but couldn't leave the car in gear presumably as he'd coasted as close to the marshals as possible & couldn't engage a gear, I suspect no physical link between lever & box. The marshal tried to put a block under the wheel but it was still sliding/rolling. it might be specific to that marshal post, but I feel they were lacking in A. Marshalls only appeared initially to be 1 B. If it is such a slope then maybe they need better arresters.

Finally track limits, now I do like the idea that the track is between the white lines & that at least 1 wheel (I would prefer 2) wheels have to be kept on the track at all times. Errors will be made & they will go out there when they get it wrong, but stamping down on them is good, but 2 things spring to mind, it got all a bit confusing, who had been noted (on their 3 strikes), who had been black & whit'd & who was carrying a penalty. Along with if they are doing it in Austria it has to be continued to all events.


----------



## Salad Dodger (11 Jul 2022)

I would prefer all 4 wheels to remain between the white lines, with heavy penalties for putting even one wheel over the line. But, then again, I am an old fogey.......


----------



## Jody (11 Jul 2022)

Salad Dodger said:


> I would prefer all 4 wheels to remain between the white lines, with heavy penalties for putting even one wheel over the line. But, then again, I am an old fogey.......



All 4? So use of Kerbs is banned?


----------



## Phaeton (11 Jul 2022)

Shock Horror, Bernie has been charged with Tax Evasion, who'd have thought it, I would have thought he would have been the first person inline tipping up his state pension to the HMRC to pay his full whack.


----------



## Salad Dodger (11 Jul 2022)

Jody said:


> All 4? So use of Kerbs is banned?



In my world, yes it would be.


----------



## Reynard (11 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Shock Horror, Bernie has been charged with Tax Evasion, who'd have thought it, I would have thought he would have been the first person inline tipping up his state pension to the HMRC to pay his full whack.



Indeed, quelle surprise...


----------



## Jody (11 Jul 2022)

Kerbs are great


----------



## Beebo (12 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Hamilton is speaking out about the cheering of the Max fans when he crashed on Friday, although I agree, it would have more credence had he spoken out about the booing at Silverstone.




He’s on record as telling fans to stop booing at Silverstone. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/62022394


----------



## classic33 (12 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> So I've been sat here musing it's a bit warm for that work mullarkey
> 
> Sainz leaves the track at turn 1, gets a far better exit as he's cranked less steering on & uses it to catapult past Russell, had that been kitty litter he wouldn't have been able to do it. Now I'm 100% sure even if he'd have pulled in behind Russell then it would have only been a matter of time before he went past, but should it have been a penalty, or as I think it was dealt with as a first lap incident. We saw Alonso actively practising this at 1 GP.
> 
> ...


The same rules have been applied at every race this season. Does this mean there were more drivers exceeding track limits in Austria. Or were we just made more aware of it?


----------



## FishFright (12 Jul 2022)

classic33 said:


> The same rules have been applied at every race this season. Does this mean there were more drivers exceeding track limits in Austria. Or were we just made more aware of it?



Something along the lines of...




This week we'll be mostly enforcing tack limits . 
Next week who knows ? We like to keep you all guessing.


----------



## Phaeton (13 Jul 2022)

classic33 said:


> The same rules have been applied at every race this season. Does this mean there were more drivers exceeding track limits in Austria. Or were we just made more aware of it?



That's part of the issue, the rules have been in place, but they have not been 'applied' the same across the races, at Silverstone they were allowed to do what they wanted, in Austria they appeared to go the other way, but it was different race directors.


----------



## Jody (13 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> That's part of the issue, the rules have been in place, but they have not been 'applied' the same across the races, at Silverstone they were allowed to do what they wanted, in Austria they appeared to go the other way, but it was different race directors.



Some of the calls were OTT in Austria but TBF you can gain time by running wide in those last two corners


----------



## icowden (13 Jul 2022)

Jody said:


> Some of the calls were OTT in Austria but TBF you can gain time by running wide in those last two corners


And equally, the drivers do know when they are taking advantage. Hamilton might have got to the black and white flag stage, but following that didn't commit any further breaches of track limits. He was aware of the limits and how far you can push them.


----------



## Phaeton (13 Jul 2022)

icowden said:


> And equally, the drivers do know when they are taking advantage.


That's the nature of the sportsperson they push the rules whenever they can, Russell mentioned being penalised (noted) when he'd made a mistake & ran wide so lost time, whereas as you say they were actively taking wider lines to gain an advantage.


icowden said:


> And equally, the drivers do know when they are taking advantage. Hamilton might have got to the black and white flag stage, but following that didn't commit any further breaches of track limits. He was aware of the limits and how far you can push them.


As above, sports people appear due to their nature will always push the boundaries, I suppose that's why the rule book is 3000+ pages not just 3. (I have no idea how many pages it really is)


----------



## Jody (13 Jul 2022)

icowden said:


> And equally, the drivers do know when they are taking advantage. Hamilton might have got to the black and white flag stage, but following that didn't commit any further breaches of track limits. He was aware of the limits and how far you can push them.



Yes and no. They will all push the limit but saying 1cm is difference between an infraction or not is a little excessive. The definition is gaining a lasting advantage. I'm not sure those who were deemed to have strayed over the line by 1cm gained an advantage over those that got up to it. But (excuse the pun) the line has to be drawn somewhere.

Second to last corner is incredibly easy to run wide as the apex is unsighted and it falls away on turn in. 

46 infractions in one race does seem like the RD's were being particularly stringent


----------



## icowden (13 Jul 2022)

Jody said:


> Yes and no. They will all push the limit but saying 1cm is difference between an infraction or not is a little excessive.


I sort of both agree and disagree. You have to have a limit set somewhere if you are to have a rule. I suppose you could use "benefit of the doubt" but than then opens the door to calls of unfair judgement.


----------



## matticus (13 Jul 2022)

If there was a wall there, the drivers would figure out how to drive within it, even if that meant losing time/speed.

"Benefit of doubt" should only be given where a driver is dodging an incident, or has clearly made a mistake e.g. is sliding through the corner in a way that is losing him time.

(But I do think that cars bouncing over kerbs is part of the spectacle of the sport!)


----------



## Reynard (13 Jul 2022)

This is what gets me (and I know I've mentioned it before)... If the BTCC* can use pressure plates to determine track limits offences, why can't F1? 

* AFAIK they're only installed at MSV-owned circuits, basically everywhere other than Thruxton, Croft and Knockhill. I imagine they use observers at the others.


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (13 Jul 2022)

Reynard said:


> This is what gets me (and I know I've mentioned it before)... If the BTCC* can use pressure plates to determine track limits offences, why can't F1?
> 
> * AFAIK they're only installed at MSV-owned circuits, basically everywhere other than Thruxton, Croft and Knockhill. I imagine they use observers at the others.



What, they run over the observers?


----------



## Cerdic (13 Jul 2022)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> What, they run over the observers?



You‘ve seen Touring Cars then…?


----------



## Tom B (20 Jul 2022)

Salad Dodger said:


> I would prefer all 4 wheels to remain between the white lines, with heavy penalties for putting even one wheel over the line. But, then again, I am an old fogey.......



Maybe. My old man feels the same.



Phaeton said:


> That's part of the issue, the rules have been in place, but they have not been 'applied' the same across the races, at Silverstone they were allowed to do what they wanted, in Austria they appeared to go the other way, but it was different race directors.



This is my problem. I haven't an issue. Kerbs or no kerbs it's the same for everyone. Let's just have it all same. Just don't build them of you don't want them used.

In my view there is too much whistle in F1. Too many penalties. 
Penalties for engine components even if you blew up said components in the last race and DNFd.
Penalties for gearbox use
Penalties for track limits 
Penalties for not waving at your opponent while overtaking
Penalties for this that and the other.

Every race and grid has a penalised driver or two.
How did we cope in the 90s when we pay ever saw a couple of stop gos each season usually for pitlane speeding.


----------



## icowden (20 Jul 2022)

Tom B said:


> In my view there is too much whistle in F1. Too many penalties.
> Penalties for engine components even if you blew up said components in the last race and DNFd.
> Penalties for gearbox use


This is quite a good explainer as to why engine and gearbox penalties "work":

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/w...i-embarrassment-engine-penalty-rules/6733910/

Essentially it's to stop manufacturers having a new engine and gearbox for every race.


----------



## Jody (20 Jul 2022)

icowden said:


> Essentially it's to stop manufacturers having a new engine and gearbox for every race.



Or 4 lap quali specials like it used to be back in the day


----------



## Jody (20 Jul 2022)

The initial report on bendy floors looks to have been leaked. Still don't fully understand how it works but apparently...... 

"‘As in individual pieces of cake around the holes. While driving, some of these pieces are said to miraculously disappear into the underbody on contact with the ground. When stationary, they return to their original position."

"Some teams are getting around the maximum allowed flexing of 2mm by creating a plank which is ‘practically pressed into the underbody’, allowing for more air underneath and thus greater downforce levels with these ground-effect cars, as the car can run lower."

https://www.planetf1.com/news/ferrari-red-bull-skid-block-trick-report/


----------



## icowden (20 Jul 2022)

Jody said:


> The initial report on bendy floors looks to have been leaked. Still don't fully understand how it works but apparently......
> 
> "‘As in individual pieces of cake around the holes. While driving, some of these pieces are said to miraculously disappear into the underbody on contact with the ground. When stationary, they return to their original position."
> 
> ...



I'm really interested to see what happens at the Belgian grands prix. Anyone else think that Ferrari and Redbull might just slip backwards a bit?


----------



## Jody (20 Jul 2022)

icowden said:


> I'm really interested to see what happens at the Belgian grands prix. Anyone else think that Ferrari and Redbull might just slip backwards a bit?



Ferrari yes, but CH has gone on record saying the TD won't harm them and they aren't planning to change their design.

Who knows if that's the truth?

Be interesting with Merc bringing updates and only being a few tenths behind


----------



## icowden (20 Jul 2022)

Jody said:


> Ferrari yes, but CH has gone on record saying the TD won't harm them and they aren't planning to change their design.
> Who knows if that's the truth?


Well, we shall soon find out. Horner is going to shut down any possibility of it not being the truth until they have worked out the best way to deal with the regs. He's hardly going to put his hand up and say "yeah - that's us".


----------



## Reynard (20 Jul 2022)

Jody said:


> The initial report on bendy floors looks to have been leaked. Still don't fully understand how it works but apparently......
> 
> "‘As in individual pieces of cake around the holes. While driving, some of these pieces are said to miraculously disappear into the underbody on contact with the ground. When stationary, they return to their original position."
> 
> ...



This is pretty well much the equivalent of the variable height active suspension used in the early 80s. When stationary, the car meets all the ride height tests, but at racing speed, it's running lower than it ought. 

And the more the air gets "squeezed" under the floor, the bigger the pressure drop (it's related to the square of the velocity), the more downforce you generate and ergo, you have more grip. Which of course, is advantageous, as these cars don't have the same level of basic mechanical grip than under the previous regs.

The engineers can't fanny around with the suspension, so they lower the ride height by having a movable floor. You have to admire their capacity for thinking seven ways of sideways though, but it's not strictly legal. The new guidelines were supposed to have been brought in for this weekend, but guess which two teams threw their toys out of the pram over it...

Oh yessssssssss, Spa is going to be very interesting.


----------



## Jody (20 Jul 2022)

Reynard said:


> The new guidelines were supposed to have been brought in for this weekend, but guess which two teams threw their toys out of the pram over it...
> 
> Oh yessssssssss, Spa is going to be very interesting.



RB/Rarri "We're not using that technology, but it would only be fair to give those that are a month or so grace to redesign"


----------



## Reynard (20 Jul 2022)

Jody said:


> RB/Rarri "We're not using that technology, but it would only be fair to give those that are a month or so grace to redesign"



That's the oldest sidestep in the book... 

The more one denies something in motor racing, the more likely that it's actually true. The only thing that *doesn't* lie are the timing sheets.


----------



## Jody (20 Jul 2022)

He doth protest to much

I can't wait for Spa. Just hoping the track changes work as they've altered quite a few corners and added some kitty litter.


----------



## Beebo (24 Jul 2022)

Merc will beat Ferrari in the constructors championship at this rate. 
They just can’t help themselves.


----------



## figbat (24 Jul 2022)

It’s like they play a predetermined strategy regardless of what is actually happening. They really are coming across as clowns.


----------



## classic33 (24 Jul 2022)

Throttle pedal problem, over the team radio for Ferrari. Possibly the same problem as last time.


----------



## figbat (24 Jul 2022)

classic33 said:


> Throttle pedal problem, over the team radio for Ferrari. Possibly the same problem as last time.



But in interview this wasn’t mentioned and he said he simply dropped it.


----------



## classic33 (24 Jul 2022)

figbat said:


> But in interview this wasn’t mentioned and he said he simply dropped it.


Just watched the replay, and he's shouting about the throttle just before impact.


----------



## figbat (24 Jul 2022)

classic33 said:


> Just watched the replay, and he's shouting about the throttle just before impact.



Either heat of the moment reaction or he’s been given the Ferrari PR reminder talk before talking to the media.


----------



## classic33 (24 Jul 2022)

figbat said:


> Either heat of the moment reaction or he’s been given the Ferrari PR reminder talk before talking to the media.


Think the media pen piece was after he'd been given the PR reminder.
Binotto has just been saying it was absolutely not a throttle issue.


----------



## icowden (24 Jul 2022)

Great race though. I was hoping Verstappen's tyres might go but well pleased with the result.


----------



## Phaeton (24 Jul 2022)

Jody said:


> Who knows if that's the truth?


Unfortunately Mr Horner is turning into a Politician, how do you know he's lying his lips are moving, 

Sorry but I always shouted for RB as they were new & exciting coming into the sport, they were sticking it to the established teams, they did things differently & weren't afraid to take chances. But now they are the established team who have been thoroughly beaten to a pulp over the last last 8 years, they couldn't beat the Mercedes in a straight fight, so they now play in the grey area, somewhere they appear to have been straying into in a desperate attempt to get results.



Spoiler



Well done George, you outplayed Sergio there, he/they realised what you were doing at the last second, by which time it was too late.

But c'mon Ferrari, yet again you threw it down the road, 3rd was for the taking, unless those tyres were worse than we know, but they were still clearly better than anyone else had on their car at the time.

Who else thinks it ought to have been a full safety car not virtual, had there been 10 not 5 laps to go I think it would have been, but Hamilton right on Verstappens tail /


----------



## Reynard (24 Jul 2022)

Well, nothing changes at Ferrari.

If they were a Shakespeare play, they'd be "A Comedy of Errors"


----------



## Illaveago (25 Jul 2022)

Reynard said:


> This is pretty well much the equivalent of the variable height active suspension used in the early 80s. When stationary, the car meets all the ride height tests, but at racing speed, it's running lower than it ought.
> 
> And the more the air gets "squeezed" under the floor, the bigger the pressure drop (it's related to the square of the velocity), the more downforce you generate and ergo, you have more grip. Which of course, is advantageous, as these cars don't have the same level of basic mechanical grip than under the previous regs.
> 
> ...



I think that is why they introduced the plank of wood .
My recent Motor Sport magazine shows a picture of the underside of Perez Red Bull car showing the plank set between the carbon floor .
I too am not sure how the sprung plank works as there must be a limit as to how low the floor can go before it grounds away on the race track . The old ground effect cars had nylon type sealing strips attached to the sides of the bodywork which could slide up and down .


classic33 said:


> Just watched the replay, and he's shouting about the throttle just before impact.



It seems as though they must have replaced the wrong part and that the fault is intermittent .
From what he was describing before the impact it sounds as though it was the same problem that he had in Austria .


----------



## icowden (25 Jul 2022)

Illaveago said:


> It seems as though they must have replaced the wrong part and that the fault is intermittent .
> From what he was describing before the impact it sounds as though it was the same problem that he had in Austria .


In the post race interview LeClerc says that the throttle issue came when he was trying to get out of the tyre barrier - sometime the timing of the driver radio is out with the visual. That said, I thought it was usually behind the visual not ahead of it...

Rosberg felt that LeClerc was premature with accepting it as driver error (if you value Rosberg's opinion!) as analysis of the lap doesn't really show much difference from the previous lap and there was nothing obvious that caused the rear to let go.


----------



## dave r (25 Jul 2022)

Illaveago said:


> I think that is why they introduced the plank of wood .
> My recent Motor Sport magazine shows a picture of the underside of Perez Red Bull car showing the plank set between the carbon floor .
> I too am not sure how the sprung plank works as there must be a limit as to how low the floor can go before it grounds away on the race track . The old ground effect cars had nylon type sealing strips attached to the sides of the bodywork which could slide up and down .
> 
> ...



he held his hand up later and said it was my mistake.


----------



## Illaveago (25 Jul 2022)

dave r said:


> he held his hand up later and said it was my mistake.



Yes I heard that later after the race but as has been said above it could be a cover story .
Ferrari need to examine all of the data to make sure that it wasn't a glitch in the throttle system which they haven't resolved .


----------



## dave r (25 Jul 2022)

Illaveago said:


> Yes I heard that later after the race but as has been said above it could be a cover story .
> Ferrari need to examine all of the data to make sure that it wasn't a glitch in the throttle system which they haven't resolved .



Why could it be a cover story? He seemed to be annoyed with himself during the interview.


----------



## Phaeton (25 Jul 2022)

icowden said:


> (if you value Rosberg's opinion!)


That's a No from me.


dave r said:


> Why could it be a cover story? He seemed to be annoyed with himself during the interview.


Because they are all big kids playing games, they don't want the other big boys to know they have a problem, or more possibly Binotto has promised the Exec board that the problem had been resolved but it hasn't.


----------



## figbat (25 Jul 2022)

There was a suggestion that the wind shifts to behind the car at that corner, which would lead to a loss of rear downforce, especially if there was a gust or change from a previous lap.

Or there was a car problem but Ferrari have invoked the “thou shalt never cast aspersions on a Ferrari” commandment and Leclerc has taken the fall.


----------



## dave r (25 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> That's a No from me.
> 
> Because they are all big kids playing games, they don't want the other big boys to know they have a problem, or more possibly Binotto has promised the Exec board that the problem had been resolved but it hasn't.



I recon it was just a mistake and people are reading things into it that aint there.


----------



## classic33 (25 Jul 2022)

dave r said:


> I recon it was just a mistake and people are reading things into it that aint there.


He sounded very subdued in the media pen interview, then looked like someone who'd been told off when they showed the interview.

In the race highlights, the spin and the radio transmission were almost in sync in contrast to the live race.

Main thing is he got out, unaided.


----------



## Phaeton (25 Jul 2022)

dave r said:


> I recon it was just a mistake and people are reading things into it that aint there.



Hopefully you are right & he just misjudged the loud pedal, hate to think I was hammering round in a 800Kgs 1000HP car with a sticking/non responsive throttle, that's like an accident waiting to happen.

Just another conspiracist thought, maybe it's not his bosses (Binotto) he''s frightened of, it's the FIA again I'm sure they'd not take too kindly having a throttle issue.


----------



## dave r (25 Jul 2022)

classic33 said:


> He sounded very subdued in the media pen interview, then looked like someone who'd been told off when they showed the interview.
> 
> In the race highlights, the spin and the radio transmission were almost in sync in contrast to the live race.
> 
> Main thing is he got out, unaided.



On his way back to the garage afterwards he looked like a driver that didn't want to talk to anybody, helmet firmly in place and not looking at anybody, usual behaviour for a driver thats just cocked it up.


----------



## classic33 (25 Jul 2022)

dave r said:


> On his way back to the garage afterwards he looked like a driver that didn't want to talk to anybody, helmet firmly in place and not looking at anybody, usual behaviour for a driver thats just cocked it up.


Or under orders not to.

The previous race Brindle said that the FIA wouldn't want to hear that sort of thing(Car has a mechanical problem, that required a driver operating the pedal in both directions, because it wouldn't/couldn't do it as it should) over the radio.

Live broadcast never showed the spin, which will have reduced the speed, just the car at rest in the barrier. "Throttle is stuck", was clear over the radio. Nothing about reversing out.

I'd rather see a driver go off, recover and continue, than end up in the barriers. 


Race engineer:_ “Are you OK?"_
Leclerc, shouted back: _"I cannot go off throttle! NOOOOOOOO!"_


----------



## dave r (25 Jul 2022)

classic33 said:


> Or under orders not to.
> 
> The previous race Brindle said that the FIA wouldn't want to hear that sort of thing(Car has a mechanical problem, that required a driver operating the pedal in both directions, because it wouldn't/couldn't do it as it should) over the radio.
> 
> ...



They showed the spin on the highlights, the back of the car got a away from him and it swapped ends twice then buried itself in the barrier thats all that happened.


----------



## Phaeton (25 Jul 2022)

dave r said:


> They showed the spin on the highlights, the back of the car got a away from him and it swapped ends twice then buried itself in the barrier thats all that happened.



You are a Ferrari employee in disguise  you're just trying to throw us off the scent


----------



## Reynard (25 Jul 2022)

figbat said:


> Or there was a car problem but Ferrari have invoked the “thou shalt never cast aspersions on a Ferrari” commandment and Leclerc has taken the fall.



Alain Prost (then a three times World Champion) got sacked in 1990 after telling the team their car was a heap of manure.

Nothing new to see. Move along...


----------



## Reynard (25 Jul 2022)

Illaveago said:


> I think that is why they introduced the plank of wood .
> My recent Motor Sport magazine shows a picture of the underside of Perez Red Bull car showing the plank set between the carbon floor .
> I too am not sure how the sprung plank works as there must be a limit as to how low the floor can go before it grounds away on the race track . The old ground effect cars had nylon type sealing strips attached to the sides of the bodywork which could slide up and down .



Nope, plank of wood was introduced well over a decade later (1994).

It's a given that the plank will wear during the race due to the effect of downforce, acceleration and braking, but there are limits on the acceptable amounts of wear.


----------



## dave r (25 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> You are a Ferrari employee in disguise  you're just trying to throw us off the scent



No, I'm retired and don't work for anybody, and when I was working i was nothing more than a factory labourer/ forklift driver working in the local factories. I'm not reading into something something thats not there.


----------



## figbat (25 Jul 2022)

Reynard said:


> Alain Prost (then a three times World Champion) got sacked in 1990 after telling the team their car was a heap of manure.
> 
> Nothing new to see. Move along...



This was in mind as I replied. You don’t ever criticise a Ferrari.


----------



## Reynard (25 Jul 2022)

figbat said:


> This was in mind as I replied. You don’t ever criticise a Ferrari.



Great minds and all that... 

If I were a racing driver, that would be the one team I wouldn't ever drive for. I'd much rather drive for a team that actually knew what they were doing.


----------



## Phaeton (25 Jul 2022)

dave r said:


> I'm not reading into something something thats not there.



View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f844AqLxrW0


Peter Windsor agrees with you, first 8 minutes.


----------



## Chislenko (26 Jul 2022)

Must admit not watched a Grand Prix since Olivier Panis retired but caught a bit of yesterday's highlights.

The blue, yellow, red and white line markings around the track made me think I was on a 1960's LSD trip!


----------



## icowden (26 Jul 2022)

Chislenko said:


> The blue, yellow, red and white line markings around the track made me think I was on a 1960's LSD trip!


Yeah, Paul Ricard is an odd circuit. Usually dull but not this time.


----------



## Phaeton (28 Jul 2022)

Just a push notification from Sky Sports that Vettel is retiring at the end of the year, think it's been clear for a while his heart is not in it, but I suspect an upturn in his driving now the weight of the decision is out in the public domain & to show how much better he is than Stroll


----------



## Illaveago (28 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Just a push notification from Sky Sports that Vettel is retiring at the end of the year, think it's been clear for a while his heart is not in it, but I suspect an upturn in his driving now the weight of the decision is out in the public domain & to show how much better he is than Stroll



He has turned out to be a decent chap with all his charity work . 

It is a bit sad as he would still be a pretty good racer if given a better car . I think Stroll is rubbish and is only there because Daddy owns the team .


----------



## Phaeton (28 Jul 2022)

Illaveago said:


> He has turned out to be a decent chap with all his charity work .
> 
> It is a bit sad as he would still be a pretty good racer if given a better car . I think Stroll is rubbish and is only there because Daddy owns the team .


Stroll does show occasionally flashes of brilliance, but they are occasional, he's a bit like Nicholas Latifi they both could drive circles around me single handed with one eye blinded folded in a car with only 50% power of the one Im driving, but are they blocking a seat for amore talented driver who just can't get the money together, Absolutely


----------



## Reynard (28 Jul 2022)

I'm not a fan, but I'm going to miss him, as he's evolved into one of the paddock's real characters in the last couple of years. Being at Aston, I think we've seen the real Seb rather than the corporate identikit driver from earlier in his career. I really respect the fact that he's got the gumption to stand up and talk about topics that people can find uncomfortable, and that he's not above staying behind after a race meeting and picking litter. The F1 paddock will be poorer without him.


----------



## Reynard (28 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Stroll does show occasionally flashes of brilliance, but they are occasional, he's a bit like Nicholas Latifi they both could drive circles around me single handed with one eye blinded folded in a car with only 50% power of the one Im driving, but are they blocking a seat for amore talented driver who just can't get the money together, Absolutely



As has ever been the case in motor racing, unfortunately.

I'd like to see what Stroll can do away from the influence of his father. I don't think he's anywhere near top drawer like Norris or Russell, but that he's decent enough and might win a race or two if things fall his way.


----------



## icowden (28 Jul 2022)

Reynard said:


> I'm not a fan, but I'm going to miss him, as he's evolved into one of the paddock's real characters in the last couple of years. Being at Aston, I think we've seen the real Seb rather than the corporate identikit driver from earlier in his career.


Totally agree. In his Red Bull years he seemed totally devoid of character, whereas now he comes across as someone who would always be great to have a chat with. Hopefully he'll get into punditry so Rosberg can climb back into his hole (sorry Rosberg fans - if there are any - I just cannot find anything to like about him).


----------



## Phaeton (28 Jul 2022)

Reynard said:


> As has ever been the case in motor racing, unfortunately.


So true


icowden said:


> Totally agree. In his Red Bull years he seemed totally devoid of character, whereas now he comes across as someone who would always be great to have a chat with. Hopefully he'll get into punditry so Rosberg can climb back into his hole (sorry Rosberg fans - if there are any - I just cannot find anything to like about him).


No I think he will just drift away, do a bit of campaigning, use his fame for charitable work, as to Rosberg, the sooner they widen the net to get Brundles replacement the better,

Rosberg No
Davidson No
Button No
di Resta No
Webber No
Coulthard No

There must be a driver out there that has the personality to take over


----------



## dave r (28 Jul 2022)

Reynard said:


> I'm not a fan, but I'm going to miss him, as he's evolved into one of the paddock's real characters in the last couple of years. Being at Aston, I think we've seen the real Seb rather than the corporate identikit driver from earlier in his career. I really respect the fact that he's got the gumption to stand up and talk about topics that people can find uncomfortable, and that he's not above staying behind after a race meeting and picking litter. The F1 paddock will be poorer without him.



I wasn't one of his fans at the start of his career either but he seems to have evolved into a bit of a character as time has gone by.


----------



## Beebo (28 Jul 2022)

Isn’t it funny once the champions lose their crown they become a bit more human. 

Hamilton surely doesn’t have many more seasons in him. He seems to be mellowing too.


----------



## Illaveago (28 Jul 2022)

Reynard said:


> I'm not a fan, but I'm going to miss him, as he's evolved into one of the paddock's real characters in the last couple of years. Being at Aston, I think we've seen the real Seb rather than the corporate identikit driver from earlier in his career. I really respect the fact that he's got the gumption to stand up and talk about topics that people can find uncomfortable, and that he's not above staying behind after a race meeting and picking litter. The F1 paddock will be poorer without him.



That was the first time that I thought he had changed for the good .
He doesn't seem to mind now rattling a few of the establishment's cages either .


----------



## dave r (28 Jul 2022)

Beebo said:


> Isn’t it funny once the champions lose their crown they become a bit more human.
> 
> Hamilton surely doesn’t have many more seasons in him. He seems to be mellowing too.



I've noticed a couple of times that Hamilton has dropped the mask momentarily.


----------



## Phaeton (28 Jul 2022)

Max appears to also lost his desperation of last year now he has the crown


----------



## Reynard (28 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Max appears to also lost his desperation of last year now he has the crown



That's because he's got no real competition this year, given that Ferrari are doing him a favour by shooting themselves in the foot. Might be a different story come Spa, when there's a change in the tech regs.

He's still got a face like a smacked bottom, though.


----------



## matticus (28 Jul 2022)

Reynard said:


> I really respect the fact that he's got the gumption to stand up and talk about topics that people can find uncomfortable, and that he's not above staying behind after a race meeting and picking litter. The F1 paddock will be poorer without him



Yup, that was a revelation to me! [although I also loved him putting Clarkson back in his box - in perfect English, without being rude - on the Top Gear sofa  ]

Hope he stays around in some role (or perhaps something useful outside F1?) I'd love him to do some punditry. Him and Rosberg might make a good double-act, quite different characters. But probably not main presenter material. Although anyone except the motor-mouth C4 currently employ ...


----------



## Phaeton (28 Jul 2022)

Reynard said:


> That's because he's got no real competition this year, given that Ferrari are doing him a favour by shooting themselves in the foot. Might be a different story come Spa, when there's a change in the tech regs.
> 
> He's still got a face like a smacked bottom, though.



There is that but I do feel that the desperation has declined, he's far more patient this year, he's leaving space, not pushing them off the road, he needs to blacken that tash if he wants to look more like Dick Dastardly


----------



## icowden (28 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Rosberg No
> Davidson No
> Button No
> di Resta No
> ...


Harsh! I quite like DC and Button and I don't mind Webber. Ricciardo might be a good pundit when he retires.


----------



## Reynard (28 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> There is that but I do feel that the desperation has declined, he's far more patient this year, he's leaving space, not pushing them off the road, he needs to blacken that tash if he wants to look more like Dick Dastardly



I suspect TPTB at Red Bull have had a wee word in his shell-like about the cost of breaking racing cars and how it siphons money out of the development programme.

Max is not the brightest button in the box, and typically needs to have things explained to him in words of one syllable...


----------



## Reynard (28 Jul 2022)

matticus said:


> Yup, that was a revelation to me! [although I also loved him putting Clarkson back in his box - in perfect English, without being rude - on the Top Gear sofa  ]



Yep, that was *VERY* funny. 



matticus said:


> Hope he stays around in some role (or perhaps something useful outside F1?) I'd love him to do some punditry. Him and Rosberg might make a good double-act, quite different characters. But probably not main presenter material. Although anyone except the motor-mouth C4 currently employ ...



I wonder if he'll pop up in Formula E...


----------



## Phaeton (28 Jul 2022)

Just had a save, thought I'd check the recording for the BTCC stockcar races this weekend only to find they've moved the first 2 races onto ITV1 sneaky little barstools


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (28 Jul 2022)

matticus said:


> Although anyone except the motor-mouth C4 currently employ ...



The cringeist, toe-curlingest presenter on tv. He's absolutely awful, like someone hosting their Youtube channel in his parent's basement.


----------



## icowden (28 Jul 2022)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> The cringeist, toe-curlingest presenter on tv. He's absolutely awful, like someone hosting their Youtube channel in his parent's basement.



Are you talking about Steve Jones?


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (28 Jul 2022)

icowden said:


> Are you talking about Steve Jones?



Aye, that's him. I watch the highlights package and his scripted segments are unbelievably awful. If he was chocolate etc.


----------



## Tom B (28 Jul 2022)

The older I get the more I turn on at five to race time and just watch from there.

After the Abu farce we (she) upgraded to sky Q so lost the legacy F1. I think that the skysportsf1 is overpriced (I can only watch around 50% of races live anyway) and we watch zero other sport. Personally I'd just have Freeview but she likes it.

Anyway I've been watching the f1 on ch4 highlights. Can't say I'm feeling I'm missing much. And I don't have to listen to Kravitz prattle on.

I just hope F1TV comes to the uk or some of the OTT providers come up with something.

A PAYG option or something £2 for quali live £1 recorded £2.50 for the race or £1.25 recorded other sessions £1 would suit me. Buy credit In £10 blocks.


----------



## Phaeton (28 Jul 2022)

Tom B said:


> The older I get the more I turn on at five to race time and just watch from there.


I'm sort of the same, although I do like to watch qualifying, so tend to turn on 15 minutes before, then if Brundle is commentating I turn on 40 minutes before the race to watch his gris walk, luckily my brother in law pays for the whole package so I watch free via Sky Go.


----------



## Reynard (28 Jul 2022)

I'm strictly a Radio 5 Live girl for the live action these days. Then will grab the highlights later, but just the race, none of the fannying around before.


----------



## icowden (28 Jul 2022)

Tom B said:


> The older I get the more I turn on at five to race time and just watch from there.


I always do that.


Tom B said:


> A PAYG option or something £2 for quali live £1 recorded £2.50 for the race or £1.25 recorded other sessions £1 would suit me. Buy credit In £10 blocks.


Same here. The European cost is 65 Euros for the year. Somewhere around the £60 mark for the season would suit me fine - although PAYG would suit me better as I don't always get to watch races.

At the moment I borrow the BiL's Sky login, but he's just ditched his Virgin Media account. Hoping I can do the same on his Sky Glass account. Personally I don't want to give Murdoch any of my hard earned cash. If I can't borrow it's back to CH4 highlights or dodgy online streams


----------



## Beebo (29 Jul 2022)

icowden said:


> Personally I don't want to give Murdoch any of my hard earned cash.



He hasn’t owned sky since 2018.


----------



## Phaeton (29 Jul 2022)

Beebo said:


> He hasn’t owned sky since 2018.



I thought he


----------



## icowden (29 Jul 2022)

Beebo said:


> He hasn’t owned sky since 2018.



You live and learn. I now feel less antipathy towards Sky!


----------



## Phaeton (30 Jul 2022)

Mr Saturday strikes again!!!


----------



## Reynard (30 Jul 2022)

Edoardo Mortara strikes again, too... Three races in London on the trot that he's put Sam Bird into the wall...


----------



## figbat (30 Jul 2022)

Reynard said:


> Edoardo Mortara strikes again, too... Three races in London on the trot that he's put Sam Bird into the wall...



I have a personal dislike of Edo, having had close-up experience of him when he was in DTM.


----------



## Reynard (30 Jul 2022)

figbat said:


> I have a personal dislike of Edo, having had close-up experience of him when he was in DTM.



I'm not going to disagree with you there.


----------



## Phaeton (31 Jul 2022)

ROFL  Ferrari


----------



## Reynard (31 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> ROFL  Ferrari



Oh, they do a really good line of shooting themselves in the foot, don't they...


----------



## Reynard (31 Jul 2022)

In other news, the coverage from Knockhill is fabby.

And they've had John Cleland on... 

I have a real soft spot for John Cleland.  A fabby racer and an all-round good egg.


----------



## figbat (31 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> ROFL  Ferrari



Strategy team to go mysteriously missing over the summer break…?


----------



## Phaeton (31 Jul 2022)

figbat said:


> Strategy team to go mysteriously missing over the summer break…?



I wonder if they still have Mafia connections 

Strategy team member to Technical team member 'What's all those bags of lime for?'
Technical team member to Strategy team member 'New regulations we have to use it as ballast, nothing for you to worry about'


----------



## Reynard (31 Jul 2022)

figbat said:


> Strategy team to go mysteriously missing over the summer break…?



Someone will give them an offer they can't refuse. 

But I'm half expecting to see Mr Bean in the garage...

Fair play to Red Bull though. Regardless of what you think of them, they got it spot on today.


----------



## Phaeton (1 Aug 2022)

He's only gone & done it again, surely this must be the last bad transfer decision Alonso can make?

https://www.astonmartinf1.com/en-GB...rnando-alonso-to-join-aston-martin-f1-in-2023

He might be one of the best drivers around, but his business acumen leaves a lot to be desired, I really can't see it ending well, especially with Stroll senior in charge, who hasn't a clue & just tries to buy success in my mind.


----------



## Jody (1 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> ....surely this must be the last bad transfer decision Alonso can make?



Doesn't quite make sense, so he's either disgruntled at Alpine or he knows somethings coming at AM.


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (1 Aug 2022)




----------



## Phaeton (1 Aug 2022)

Jody said:


> Doesn't quite make sense, so he's either disgruntled at Alpine or he knows somethings coming at AM.



Or he's chasing the money, I'm sat here thinking why, just why, he seems to like to sabotage his own career at every turn.


----------



## Jody (1 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> ....he seems to like to sabotage his own career at every turn.



Great entertainment though


----------



## Illaveago (1 Aug 2022)

Jody said:


> Doesn't quite make sense, so he's either disgruntled at Alpine or he knows somethings coming at AM.



Ocon won't be his teammate to help him !


----------



## Reynard (1 Aug 2022)

I think Alonso jumped before he was pushed - given that one of the sports worst kept secrets is that Oscar Piastri was pretty well much guaranteed a race seat at Alpine for 2023. And as a French* team, they're not going to get rid of Ocon.

* they're about as French as fish & chips and jelly & ice cream, given that they started out life as Toleman back in the day  Nationality for a team is about who owns their competition licence, not where they're actually based.


----------



## figbat (1 Aug 2022)

Reynard said:


> I think Alonso jumped before he was pushed - given that one of the sports worst kept secrets is that Oscar Piastri was pretty well much guaranteed a race seat at Alpine for 2023. And as a French* team, they're not going to get rid of Ocon.
> 
> * they're about as French as fish & chips and jelly & ice cream, given that they started out life as Toleman back in the day  Nationality for a team is about who owns their competition licence, not where they're actually based.


I remember the Toleman factory in Witney. Now they're on the Oxfordshire riviera at Enstone, having been through Benetton along the way.

Merc is the same, "German" but based in Brackley with engines from Brixworth - born out of BAR and Tyrell before it. The Austrian Red Bulls based in the Milton Keynes alps, evolved from Jaguar/Stewart.

Aston Martin is US-owned but out of Jordan/Midland (Silverstone).

Alfa Romeo used to be Mercedes (when run by Sauber in World Sportscars) and BMW.

It's a twisted tale - only Ferrari has a really pure bloodline and heritage.

But - Alonso. It feels early in the season to be kicking off the musical chairs but Seb lit the fuse with his departure announcement. If Piastri is to get the Alpine seat then they'll have Ocon as their 'lead'.... brave!


----------



## Reynard (1 Aug 2022)

figbat said:


> I remember the Toleman factory in Witney. Now they're on the Oxfordshire riviera at Enstone, having been through Benetton along the way.
> 
> Merc is the same, "German" but based in Brackley with engines from Brixworth - born out of BAR and Tyrell before it. The Austrian Red Bulls based in the Milton Keynes alps, evolved from Jaguar/Stewart.
> 
> ...



You've quite forgotten Williams and Mclaren!  

The way the licences are set up these days, and the financial strictures put in place on potential entrants, it's far easier to buy out an existing team than build something up from scratch. It's almost as if it's become a closed shop, these days. So different from when I started watching motor racing 40 years ago, when you could buy a Cosworth DFV, a Hewland gearbox, build a chassis or buy one from another team, and go F1 racing.

I recently bought a copy of "Toleman: Formula One's Last Romantics" by Christopher Hilton - a banging book if you can get your mitts on a copy. Although there's a photo of Rory Byrne wearing a pair of budgie smugglers in there that's got me reaching for the mind bleach...  I now have the only two books ever published about Toleman, having bought the Bob Constanduros volume about 25 years ago from the OOP shelf in Foyles.


----------



## Phaeton (1 Aug 2022)

figbat said:


> brave!


I'm not sure that's quite the word I would use


----------



## Tom B (2 Aug 2022)

Speaking of books Alonso's will be a good read.
I expect the McLaren Chapters will be interesting.

He doesn't seem backwards about being forwards..


----------



## Jody (2 Aug 2022)

Tom B said:


> Speaking of books Alonso's will be a good read.
> I expect the McLaren Chapters will be interesting.



I'm hoping Lewis' sheds light on the first season at MCL. Not so much about the Alonso side but what went on behind closed doors that he still isn't allowed to speak about.


----------



## Reynard (2 Aug 2022)

A lot of stuff remains "behind closed doors" in motor racing and will never see the light of day. Well, in the public arena, at least. You won't find that much in the way of explosive revelations in books, I'm afraid - totally the opposite of most other celebrities. Image really is king, here. Sometimes you can read between the lines, but in books and articles, it's more about what's not being said than what is.

In the paddock, it's different, though. There's a whole culture of "I really shouldn't tell you this, but..." - which certainly makes life interesting.

And yes, I do know stuff that's not for public consumption. And it's why certain very well-known drivers are persona non grata here chez Casa Reynard.


----------



## matticus (2 Aug 2022)

Jody said:


> I'm hoping Lewis' sheds light on the first season at MCL. Not so much about the Alonso side but what went on behind closed doors that he still isn't allowed to speak about.



I'm not really _anti_-Lewis, but I can't imagine a more tedious sports book


----------



## Jody (2 Aug 2022)

It's private now but do you reckon HAM would drop the bombshell on what happened in 2007?


----------



## Phaeton (2 Aug 2022)

Jody said:


> It's private now but do you reckon HAM would drop the bombshell on what happened in 2007?



Depends what his spin doctors think, it will depend on what it makes him look like & what it does to the brand


----------



## Jody (2 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Depends what his spin doctors think, it will depend on what it makes him look like & what it does to the brand



Can't see that it would damage his brand.


----------



## Phaeton (2 Aug 2022)

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/1...to-replace-fernando-alonso-for-formula-1-2023

Sky say it's a shock, they are clearly outside the inner ring, although I thought this guy was the guy who shot his girlfriend through the bathroom door.


----------



## Phaeton (2 Aug 2022)

Oops

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/1...e-will-be-driving-elsewhere-in-formula-1-2023

He's not happy they didn't ask him


----------



## Jody (2 Aug 2022)

Shocker if that's legit and he has a drive elsewhere.


----------



## Tom B (2 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Oops
> 
> https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/1...e-will-be-driving-elsewhere-in-formula-1-2023
> 
> He's not happy they didn't ask him



Awkward


I can't see why MCl would take him to give him his rookie year/s if he is any way under contract to Renault/ Alpine only to see him walk away or be dragged away once he's stopped smashing stuff up and shown promise. That's a Williams, Alfa or Toro job.

I'd say a move to Alpine is Ricc's only chance of salvaging his career and reputation. Only they and red bull know how good (or not) he is anyone else would be nervous. Id only see red bull wanting him if Perez decided to go, but I can't see Ric wanting to be destroyed by Max weekly and Red Bull doesn't seem a nice place at the moment. Alpine, well if the Piastri deal is off might see him as a safe pair of hands. Personally I think he's overrated, but I didn't expect him to be pasted by Lando as much as he has been. 

All that said the last couple of MCL haven't been to his liking or suited his style, but what's to say any other car would be?


----------



## Cerdic (2 Aug 2022)

Well, if Alonso’s past career moves are any guide, expect next year‘s Alpine to be a stunningly fast car…


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (3 Aug 2022)

View: https://youtu.be/LBoNLeo7VIU


----------



## Illaveago (4 Aug 2022)

I was just reading that they want to make new changes for how many times a team uses . They reckon it is to make sure that one team doesn't have a monopoly of winning championships .
All these rule changes ! 
Why don't they just do what they did last year and rig the final outcome ? It would be much easier !


----------



## Phaeton (4 Aug 2022)

Tom B said:


> Awkward
> 
> 
> I can't see why MCl would take him to give him his rookie year/s if he is any way under contract to Renault/ Alpine only to see him walk away or be dragged away once he's stopped smashing stuff up and shown promise. That's a Williams, Alfa or Toro job.
> ...



I like Ricciardo, on his day he could match Verstappen & beat him in the same car, but he doesn't have 'it' now I don't know what 'it' is, but some drivers have it & other don't. 

Most drivers don't have 'it', Coulthard, Webber, Alesia, Barricello, never had 'it' Some have 'it' for a very short period of time Hill, Button, Vettel** then there are drivers who clearly have/had 'it' Senna, M Schumacher, Hamilton, Verstappen, of the latest crop coming along, I think LeClerc & Russell have 'it' jury is out on Sainz but I think he will turn into an almost

**Maybe I'm being unfair, but I seem to remember he won most of his races from the front & never performed when faced with adversity or had to come from the back.


----------



## Illaveago (4 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I like Ricciardo, on his day he could match Verstappen & beat him in the same car, but he doesn't have 'it' now I don't know what 'it' is, but some drivers have it & other don't.
> 
> Most drivers don't have 'it', Coulthard, Webber, Alesia, Barricello, never had 'it' Some have 'it' for a very short period of time Hill, Button, Vettel** then there are drivers who clearly have/had 'it' Senna, M Schumacher, Hamilton, Verstappen, of the latest crop coming along, I think LeClerc & Russell have 'it' jury is out on Sainz but I think he will turn into an almost
> 
> **Maybe I'm being unfair, but I seem to remember he won most of his races from the front & never performed when faced with adversity or had to come from the back.



You forgot Norris .


----------



## Phaeton (4 Aug 2022)

Illaveago said:


> You forgot Norris .


I'm 90% with you, but I'm not quite sure he'd ruthless enough (yet)


----------



## Chislenko (4 Aug 2022)

Illaveago said:


> You forgot Norris .



And Olivier Panis!


----------



## Phaeton (4 Aug 2022)

Chislenko said:


> And Olivier Panis!



In what way?


----------



## FishFright (4 Aug 2022)

Illaveago said:


> I was just reading that they want to make new changes for how many times a team uses . They reckon it is to make sure that one team doesn't have a monopoly of winning championships .
> All these rule changes !
> Why don't they just do what they did last year and rig the final outcome ? It would be much easier !



They already have ... probably , it's all about the show don't you know,

And how many time a team uses a full stop ?


----------



## Illaveago (4 Aug 2022)

> 8loody! Alter Krekt! It was tyres !


----------



## matticus (4 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> In what way?



I think it's fair to say that Panis had "it" for one race!


----------



## Chislenko (4 Aug 2022)

matticus said:


> I think it's fair to say that Panis had "it" for one race!



To be fair I think he would have won in Canada as well if his steering hadn't gone putting him into the wall and breaking his legs!

He had just unlapped himself from the leader (I think Schumacher?) and was from memory circulating 8 seconds a lap faster than the leaders with enough laps to make up the time.

I think Prost (Ligier) was the only team running Bridgestone tyres which were far outlasting what the other teams were using. (Start to finish no tyre stops or limited tyre stop in those days if my memory serves me)


----------



## Phaeton (5 Aug 2022)

I wonder if they should go the Indy car way with pitstops, they only allow 6 team members to be in the pit lane for the stop instead of the 20+ they have in F1.


----------



## Salad Dodger (7 Aug 2022)

It's British round of Moto GP today.
I believe Moto 3 and Moto 2 are viewable live on ITV4 this morning, and Moto GP race on ITV 1 this lunchtime.
I will be out, but have set the TV box to record it all.......


----------



## Phaeton (7 Aug 2022)

Salad Dodger said:


> It's British round of Moto GP today.
> I believe Moto 3 and Moto 2 are viewable live on ITV4 this morning, and Moto GP race on ITV 1 this lunchtime.
> I will be out, but have set the TV box to record it all.......



I love watching MotoGP more than F1, but I just don't watch it, it's never seems to be live & the highlights never seem to be on at the same time, TBH I have no idea who any of the riders are now. But I'll put it on for record today


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (11 Aug 2022)

Sorry






Sorry





Sorry


























Not sorry


----------



## Phaeton (11 Aug 2022)

Cruel, but so funny


----------



## Phaeton (13 Aug 2022)

Oops I always said electric & rain don't mix


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8ADbT9UTn8


----------



## Cerdic (14 Aug 2022)

I dunno what it is, but why do Formula E cars always look like toy cars?


----------



## Phaeton (15 Aug 2022)

Cerdic said:


> I dunno what it is, but why do Formula E cars always look like toy cars?



Yep I just can't get into them, don't know if it's the shape, the noise, the bouncing as they go down the track, the artificial track layouts, or the constant smashing into each other, just doesn't grab me as a top line motorsport.


----------



## figbat (15 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Yep I just can't get into them, don't know if it's the shape, the noise, the bouncing as they go down the track, the artificial track layouts, or the constant smashing into each other, just doesn't grab me as a top line motorsport.



Same. I went to the Berlin E-prix this year and was thoroughly underwhelmed by the whole event, including the cars.


----------



## Beebo (15 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Yep I just can't get into them, don't know if it's the shape, the noise, the bouncing as they go down the track, the artificial track layouts, or the constant smashing into each other, just doesn't grab me as a top line motorsport.


Agreed.
Why are they always on Mickey mouse street circuits?
Can we see them on a proper track please.


----------



## Salad Dodger (15 Aug 2022)

Beebo said:


> Agreed.
> Why are they always on Mickey mouse street circuits?
> Can we see them on a proper track please.



I wish I could "like" this comment many times over. 

I guess street tracks are designed to provide lots of speeding up and slowing down ( thus regenerative braking which extends the cars range).
But I would like to see them on somewhere like Oulton Park, or maybe even Cadwell Park......


----------



## Illaveago (15 Aug 2022)

I tried watching E car racing and got bored in less than a minute . I switched it off as it didn't have much appeal for some reason .


----------



## Phaeton (15 Aug 2022)

Seems like a lot of us F1 watchers just don't get on with it, but what is it that we don't like I can't put my finger on it, I enjoy other forms of racing (BTCC etc.), it can't really be the sound as you can't really hear the F1 cars via TV.


----------



## Beebo (15 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Seems like a lot of us F1 watchers just don't get on with it, but what is it that we don't like I can't put my finger on it, I enjoy other forms of racing (BTCC etc.), it can't really be the sound as you can't really hear the F1 cars via TV.



It just seems too sanitised. The tracks are too narrow, cluttered and twisty with too many barriers.


----------



## Cerdic (15 Aug 2022)

I believe the “mickey mouse street circuits” are a marketing thing.

The idea, apparently, is to convert people who are not fans of motor sport by making it ‘different’, ‘exciting’, and ‘taking the sport to the people’. As ‘the people’ mostly live in cities that is where they have the races…


----------



## Illaveago (15 Aug 2022)

Beebo said:


> It just seems too sanitised. The tracks are too narrow, cluttered and twisty with too many barriers.



I think the mesh barriers make me think of caged animals . I just don't like street circuits apart from Monaco but that is beginning to become a bit boring with lack of overtaking .


----------



## FishFright (15 Aug 2022)

Illaveago said:


> I think the mesh barriers make me think of caged animals . I just don't like street circuits apart from Monaco but that is beginning to become a bit boring with lack of overtaking .



Monaco was always one of my favourite tracks but the cars are just to big nowadays.


----------



## Phaeton (15 Aug 2022)

FishFright said:


> Monaco was always one of my favourite tracks but the cars are just to big nowadays.



Wonder how small cc bikes would be around it, or maybe a flyaway BTCC round


----------



## Phaeton (16 Aug 2022)

on the subject of white lines, this is at the bottom of paddock hill bend, Gerry Marshall & BIg Bertha, if you watch the video, every lap that is filmed he's way out there, he's carrying too much speed over the top of the hill to stay within the lines


----------



## Chislenko (16 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> View attachment 657600
> 
> 
> on the subject of white lines, this is at the bottom of paddock hill bend, Gerry Marshall & BIg Bertha, if you watch the video, every lap that is filmed he's way out there, he's carrying too much speed over the top of the hill to stay within the lines



That's just a normal Firenza, Phaeton. Baby Bertha's body is a lot more flamboyant and Big Bertha was actually a V8 Vauxhall Ventora. All pictures of it seem to be copyrighted though so I couldn't find one to put here.


----------



## Jenkins (16 Aug 2022)

Chislenko said:


> That's just a normal Firenza, Phaeton. Baby Bertha's body is a lot more flamboyant and Big Bertha was actually a V8 Vauxhall Ventora. All pictures of it seem to be copyrighted though so I couldn't find one to put here.



Baby Bertha on static show in 2003. It's still occasionally racing in the Classic & Sports Car Club's Special Saloons & Modsports series.


----------



## Reynard (16 Aug 2022)

Mmmm, for some reason I wasn't getting any notifications... Hey ho...

Anyways, I rather like Formula E, but then again, I've been watching it since 2014. OTOH, Moto GP does nothing for me these days. Watched the British GP, and found it all rather snoresome.

In other matters, I'd rather like to get these two gentlemen well lubricated, and then just sit back and listen. I reckon the results will be hilarious but totally unprintable...


----------



## Jenkins (16 Aug 2022)

Reynard said:


> <Snip>
> 
> *In other matters, I'd rather like to get these two gentlemen well lubricated*, and then just sit back and listen. I reckon the results will be hilarious but totally unprintable...
> 
> View attachment 657632



Must not respond. Must not respond.


----------



## dave r (16 Aug 2022)

Reynard said:


> Mmmm, for some reason I wasn't getting any notifications... Hey ho...
> 
> Anyways, I rather like Formula E, but then again, I've been watching it since 2014. OTOH, Moto GP does nothing for me these days. Watched the British GP, and found it all rather snoresome.
> 
> ...




Moto GP seems to have lost its way somehow, the spark seems to be missing, the support races often produce better racing.


----------



## Reynard (16 Aug 2022)

dave r said:


> Moto GP seems to have lost its way somehow, the spark seems to be missing, the support races often produce better racing.



Agreed... And I miss my eye candy... (Dani Pedrosa)


----------



## Reynard (16 Aug 2022)

Jenkins said:


> Must not respond. Must not respond.



With *alcohol* me old bean... 

Whatever were you thinking?


----------



## dave r (17 Aug 2022)

Reynard said:


> Agreed... And I miss my eye candy... (Dani Pedrosa)



I always felt he should have managed to get a world championship


----------



## Phaeton (17 Aug 2022)

I also watched the British GP & didn't think WOW what have I been missing I need to watch more of these.


----------



## Illaveago (17 Aug 2022)

dave r said:


> Moto GP seems to have lost its way somehow, the spark seems to be missing, the support races often produce better racing.



I went off of it when Casey Stoner left . He could handle that Duke!


----------



## Phaeton (17 Aug 2022)

Illaveago said:


> I went off of it when Casey Stoner left . He could handle that Duke!



That was a real weird one, it seemed at the time he was the only one who could, even Valentino couldn't


----------



## Illaveago (17 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> That was a real weird one, it seemed at the time he was the only one who could, even Valentino couldn't



He was able to power the bike by sliding it through corners a bit like rally drivers.


----------



## dave r (17 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> That was a real weird one, it seemed at the time he was the only one who could, even Valentino couldn't



The bikes were designed to suit his riding style, thats why no one else could ride them, at one point Honda were doing the same with Marquez.


----------



## Reynard (17 Aug 2022)

dave r said:


> I always felt he should have managed to get a world championship



Yes, deffo.

At one point, he was the only rider who could stack up to Marquez - who then promptly took him out of a race and cost Dani that year's championship.

Marquez is someone with the same attitude to racing as Senna and Schumacher - namely doesn't care who he craps on to get what he wants. And the Honda management encouraged that, turning him into a right little Caligula.


----------



## Salad Dodger (17 Aug 2022)

I thought Caligula made two stroke race bikes.......


----------



## figbat (17 Aug 2022)

Reynard said:


> Marquez is someone with the same attitude to racing as Senna and Schumacher - namely doesn't care who he craps on to get what he wants. And the Honda management encouraged that, turning him into a right little Caligula.



I see your point, but...

Marquez - 6 top flight championships.
Schumacher - 7
Senna - just the three but arguably cut short.


----------



## Reynard (17 Aug 2022)

figbat said:


> I see your point, but...
> 
> Marquez - 6 top flight championships.
> Schumacher - 7
> Senna - just the three but arguably cut short.



It's not about numbers. I was talking about the toxic, selfish personality.


----------



## dave r (17 Aug 2022)

Reynard said:


> Yes, deffo.
> 
> At one point, he was the only rider who could stack up to Marquez - who then promptly took him out of a race and cost Dani that year's championship.
> 
> Marquez is someone with the same attitude to racing as Senna and Schumacher - namely doesn't care who he craps on to get what he wants. And the Honda management encouraged that, turning him into a right little Caligula.



Standard winning mentality.


----------



## figbat (17 Aug 2022)

Reynard said:


> It's not about numbers. I was talking about the toxic, selfish personality.



Yep - I was just correlating that with the numbers. I don't believe many long-term, multiple world champions have been salt-of-the-earth types.


----------



## Reynard (17 Aug 2022)

dave r said:


> Standard winning mentality.



Very much so.

And I think it's worse now in motorsports than it used to be, simply because they start so young. And if they're being bankrolled by wealthy parents / wealthy conections, they get this sense of entitlement, because no one actually dares say no to them. As a result, you end up with drivers and riders with the emotional maturity of a toddler.

Back in the day, you used to have to have a full road licence to be able to race on the circuits.


----------



## Reynard (17 Aug 2022)

figbat said:


> Yep - I was just correlating that with the numbers. I don't believe many long-term, multiple world champions have been salt-of-the-earth types.



Not just multiple world champions - a lot of top-line drivers are pretty nasty pieces of work. You wouldn't want to invite them round for a beer, or for tea and cakes.

Am talking from experience here. I've been shat on, both professionally and personally.


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (17 Aug 2022)




----------



## Phaeton (17 Aug 2022)

Reynard said:


> Back in the day, you used to have to have a full road licence to be able to race on the circuits.



I thought I remembered Rocket Ron Haslam winning his first British championship before passing his test, but my memory os a twisted thing


----------



## Reynard (17 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I thought I remembered Rocket Ron Haslam winning his first British championship before passing his test, but my memory os a twisted thing



I only know what it used to be for cars. All you had to do was provide a full road licence and join a motor club, and bob's your uncle. All this ARDS stuff came in mid 90s IIRC.

The only circuit in the UK (not short ovals) where you could drive without having passed your DVLA driving test was Goodwood.


----------



## Chislenko (22 Aug 2022)

Channel hopping late last night and settled on a re-run of the Bennett's British Superbikes from Thruxton last week.

Although like a lot of other Motorsport these days there were three principle riders, then the rest some way back, the three at the front provided one helluva battle, the lead seesawing many times and some quite remarkable passing especially towards the end of the race on "past their best tyres"

Thoroughly enjoyable watch.


----------



## Phaeton (24 Aug 2022)

Ricciardo to leave McLaren at the end of the season confirmed, it was clear Zak Brown would get his way, it's a shame as I've always liked Daniel, but he's just not been able to get to grips with the car in the same was as Norris has, but he was the only one who could keep Verstappen honest in a car that was totally built around the way Verstappen drives, even Perez is now struggling as they move the car away from his style of driving & towards Verstappens.


----------



## Reynard (24 Aug 2022)

There were whispers going around the other week that Piastri is headed to McLaren after he and Alpine both denied that he was going there...

Aaaah, welcome to the F1 Silly Season.


----------



## dave r (24 Aug 2022)

Reynard said:


> There were whispers going around the other week that Piastri is headed to McLaren after he and Alpine both denied that he was going there...
> 
> Aaaah, welcome to the F1 Silly Season.



Its usually good for a laugh.


----------



## glasgowcyclist (24 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Ricciardo to leave McLaren at the end of the season confirmed,



I like him too, has he agreed a drive with another team?


----------



## dave r (24 Aug 2022)

glasgowcyclist said:


> I like him too, has he agreed a drive with another team?



I don't think he has yet.


----------



## Reynard (24 Aug 2022)

Mmmmm, he might end up back at Alpine. or in Formula E.


----------



## Jody (24 Aug 2022)

One last stab at silly season. 

Danny Ric to Haas and Schui to Alpine.


----------



## dave r (24 Aug 2022)

Jody said:


> One last stab at silly season.
> 
> Danny Ric to Haas and Schui to Alpine.



I've seen that one.


----------



## Jody (24 Aug 2022)

dave r said:


> I've seen that one.



Is that an article or from a comments section?


----------



## dave r (25 Aug 2022)

Jody said:


> Is that an article or from a comments section?



It was on Crashnet

https://www.crash.net/f1/feature/1010429/1/what-next-daniel-ricciardo-sensible-and-wildcard-options


----------



## Phaeton (25 Aug 2022)

Alfa Romeo I don't think the door is open, this is going to be a young Ferrari driver, Schumacher?
Alpha Tauri I think it's unlikely RB won't want him back
Alpine Does he want to play 2nd fiddle to the crashing Ocon
Haas As Alfa it's a young Ferrari driver, he has no links with Ferrari
McLaren we know he's not there
Williams Possible the only available seat
Formula E I do hope not
GT Racing Possibly
V8 Supercars Possibly
Some form of environmental green racing other than Formula E, not sure what else is out there


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (25 Aug 2022)

Mark Lane's (Alpine Aero Surface Designer) deleted tweet


----------



## Illaveago (25 Aug 2022)

I just read that Alonso won't be given number one driver status at Aston Martin . Perhaps the boss prefers crash test dummies?


----------



## FishFright (26 Aug 2022)

Audi to join F1
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/audi-announces-formula-1-entry-from-2026/10357441/


----------



## Phaeton (26 Aug 2022)

FishFright said:


> Audi to join F1
> https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/audi-announces-formula-1-entry-from-2026/10357441/



Think this has widely been rumoured along with Porsche who presumably will run a branded VAG engine, I can't see them developing 2 engines, but this does mean that whatever concessions they were waiting for have been agreed to, the reduction in electric & the increase in biofuel?

Is it just my impression that CH is turning into the ringmaster of the sport?


----------



## classic33 (26 Aug 2022)

FishFright said:


> Audi to join F1
> https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/audi-announces-formula-1-entry-from-2026/10357441/


Wasn't there talk earlier this year, of them joining next year. Possibly taking over Alpine.


----------



## Jody (26 Aug 2022)

classic33 said:


> Wasn't there talk earlier this year, of them joining next year. Possibly taking over Alpine.



Not that I'm aware of. They were always looking to take either Sauber or Alpha Tauri


----------



## Jody (26 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Is it just my impression that CH is turning into the ringmaster of the sport?



It's not just you.

I used to hate the way Bernie would lord over it but maybe he had it right. Too many people now calling the shots


----------



## FishFright (26 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Think this has widely been rumoured along with Porsche who presumably will run a branded VAG engine, I can't see them developing 2 engines, but this does mean that whatever concessions they were waiting for have been agreed to, the reduction in electric & the increase in biofuel?
> 
> Is it just my impression that CH is turning into the ringmaster of the sport?



Rumour mill is saying Porsche are going to partner with Red Bull and their engine programme.


----------



## Jody (26 Aug 2022)

https://www.planetf1.com/news/audi-announces-f1-2026/

Audi apparently started work on their engine 6 months ago.

Wonder who is going to have a Mercedes esq dominance in the next formula?


----------



## Phaeton (26 Aug 2022)

classic33 said:


> Wasn't there talk earlier this year, of them joining next year. Possibly taking over Alpine.


Not that I've heard, I was always under the impression they didn't want to join under these engine rules, that they wanted to wait until the new specification was announced, but they attended the meetings as an interested party & as long as the new engines were of a kind that would benefit their road projects they would come onboard. As far as I know the exact specification hasn't been finalised, but presumably the framework is such that they feel there is an advantage.


FishFright said:


> Rumour mill is saying Porsche are going to partner with Red Bull and their engine programme.


I thought the idea was that RB & TR would run Audi badged engines & Porsche would take a stake the in Sauber away from Alfa Romeo & run what I presume will be an Audi engine badged Porsche.


----------



## FishFright (26 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Not that I've heard, I was always under the impression they didn't want to join under these engine rules, that they wanted to wait until the new specification was announced, but they attended the meetings as an interested party & as long as the new engines were of a kind that would benefit their road projects they would come onboard. As far as I know the exact specification hasn't been finalised, but presumably the framework is such that they feel there is an advantage.
> 
> I thought the idea was that RB & TR would run Audi badged engines & Porsche would take a stake the in Sauber away from Alfa Romeo & run what I presume will be an Audi engine badged Porsche.



The press conference sheds some light on that


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MLzH-stpcc&t=836s&ab_channel=FORMULA1


----------



## Jody (26 Aug 2022)

McLaren have apparently had to pay Danny Ric just short of £15million to not race next year. The contract mechanism looks to have worked in Danny Ric's favour 

Cold response from Lando though when asked if he had any sympathy 'I hate to say it, but I would say no,'.


----------



## Phaeton (26 Aug 2022)

Jody said:


> Cold response from Lando though when asked if he had any sympathy 'I hate to say it, but I would say no,'.


Covering all the bases, in another comment, he said it was a shame as he'd learnt a lot from Daniel. PR machine in full twirl


----------



## Jody (26 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Covering all the bases, in another comment, he said it was a shame as he'd learnt a lot from Daniel. PR machine in full twirl



Selected quotes as always. I hadn't seen the actual interview but thought it was a harsh.


----------



## Phaeton (27 Aug 2022)

Bit of a mixed up grid, but I still fancy Max to come through & win, he'll be on the podium IF they all get around the first corner.

How to stop them running wide & gaining an advantage, easy put a gravel trap there, WELL DONE Spa, pretty sure that'll ensure at least 1 safety car tomorrow.


----------



## Phaeton (29 Aug 2022)

Hamilton made a big mistake, Alonso was furious as you would be, shouted out in anger, Hamilton watches the replay, admits it was his error & apologises, that logically is the end of the story, but no

Now the journalists Pah! the hacks are trying to stir up an non existent feud. They need to learn the words to Frozen, "let it go" It really is starting to erk me, the state of the journo's these days, instead of trying to find interesting stories which need researching, they try to make a story out of nothing, lazy barstools.


----------



## icowden (29 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Now the journalists Pah! the hacks are trying to stir up an non existent feud. They need to learn the words to Frozen, "let it go" It really is starting to erk me, the state of the journo's these days, instead of trying to find interesting stories which need researching, they try to make a story out of nothing, lazy barstools.


The only real story is that the new rules around flexing appear to have had no effect other than to make the Red Bull go like a rocket. Hate to say it, but I think Verstappen's going to get his second world championship this year.

My guess is that Merc are going to put minimal money / development into this years car now, in favour of getting a good car for next year. It would make sense.


----------



## Phaeton (29 Aug 2022)

icowden said:


> The only real story is that the new rules around flexing appear to have had no effect other than to make the Red Bull go like a rocket.


Or they haven't changed a thing, my thought is that RB have taken the stance, we built a legal car as laid down by the rules, if you want to prove we haven't then our barrister is willing to talk to you about that in court. Ferrari have which has slowed them down, that & the lacking the ability to organise the proverbial in the brewery, why are they asking drivers who haven't seem any data which tyres they want to be on.


icowden said:


> Hate to say it, but I think Verstappen's going to get his second world championship this year.


Hate it or not, he deserves it on this years performance.


----------



## figbat (29 Aug 2022)

Or pulling a driver for the fastest lap attempt and releasing them behind someone else?! They cost LEC a place because of the subsequent speeding penalty.


----------



## Beebo (31 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Hate it or not, he deserves it on this years performance.


Agreed. 
Which makes last year even more annoying.


----------



## icowden (2 Sep 2022)

Thought this article was a good read - nice to know that Hamilton and Alonso are on speaking terms again! Also interesting about Red Bulls advantage and Adrian Newey. Some good insight.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/62756612

In other news..
Interesting watching FP1 at Dutch GP. Verstappen with a gearbox problem and the Mercedes looking happier than usual. Seems it may have been the Ferraris affected by the tightening up of the ground aero rules.


----------



## Jody (2 Sep 2022)

Had to lol at this


----------



## Reynard (2 Sep 2022)

Piastri confirmed at McLaren for the 23 & 24 seasons.


----------



## icowden (2 Sep 2022)

Reynard said:


> Piastri confirmed at McLaren for the 23 & 24 seasons.



Indeed. What now for Danny Ric?


----------



## Jody (2 Sep 2022)

Looks like a no from Alpine as Gasly's ready to jump ship from AT and join Renault. 

Danny Ric to Haas then


----------



## Jody (2 Sep 2022)

The silliest of silly seasons for quite some time


----------



## Phaeton (2 Sep 2022)

Reynard said:


> Piastri confirmed at McLaren for the 23 & 24 seasons.



Let's hope he lives up to the hype


----------



## Reynard (2 Sep 2022)

icowden said:


> Indeed. What now for Danny Ric?



It depends.

Lando has made him look decidedly ordinary, and we know he's not, really. But once that gilt has rubbed off, it does make things much harder, as there's always far more drivers than there are seats.

If you can bring in money, then there are teams who will look past the lack of results, but if you can't, then even results sometimes aren't always enough.

A move sideways to WEC or Formula E looks most likely IMHO.


----------



## Jody (2 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Let's hope he lives up to the hype



Be a devil if he doesn't given how much it's cost McLaren


----------



## Reynard (2 Sep 2022)

i should add that money is usually the driving factor.

There was a Formula 3 driver who won the title back in the day on a tiddly budget. Though he had been driving for what was then the top F3 team of the day - he was signed based on his results the previous season. The car though, was very well sponsored, but most of this came from other sources.

Said driver was then offered an F1 testing contract on the basis that the F1 team boss assumed from the stickers on his F3 car that he could bring money into the team. The driver took the chance to get to F1 more quickly instead of taking a big money paid drive in Japan. The testing contract then came to nothing when the F1 team boss finally twigged that no money would be forthcoming, and by then, the drive in Japan had been snapped up by someone else.

I should add, that roughly contemporary to this, a full season in International F3000 in a reasonably competitive car would set you back around £350,000.


----------



## Phaeton (2 Sep 2022)

I'm just sat watching the practice at Van Der Valk & wonder apart from the Verstappen link why F1 is there, baring mechanicals it looks like the race will be finished at 3pm on Saturday. It looks worse than Monaco for overtaking


----------



## Reynard (2 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I'm just sat watching the practice at Van Der Valk & wonder apart from the Verstappen link why F1 is there, baring mechanicals it looks like the race will be finished at 3pm on Saturday. It looks worse than Monaco for overtaking



Money in the coffers.

Basically why we had a second race in Spain (Valencia) to capitalise on Alonsomania, and likewise two races in Germany (although one billed as the Luxembourg GP) to do the same for Michael Schumacher.


----------



## Phaeton (2 Sep 2022)

Listening to the commentary nobody has mentioned that maybe RB have stopped the floor flexing & as such lost some speed


----------



## icowden (2 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Listening to the commentary nobody has mentioned that maybe RB have stopped the floor flexing & as such lost some speed



The reason for that is how insanely fast they seemed to be at Spa.


----------



## dave r (2 Sep 2022)

icowden said:


> The reason for that is how insanely fast they seemed to be at Spa.



Yes, they seem strangely off the pace in second practice.


----------



## Phaeton (2 Sep 2022)

icowden said:


> The reason for that is how insanely fast they seemed to be at Spa.



Yeahbutt, depending on exactly what was written in the rules, the deadline was Spa, but was that the beginning of Spa or at the end of Spa, we know RB are good at grey areas, they always push the limit & ask for forgiveness after rather than complying before. 

I love my tin foil hat, but did Ferrari make the change before Spa & RB have done it after Spa

Also look what happened when Hamilton took a new engine last year


----------



## Phaeton (4 Sep 2022)

Well that was better than expected.


----------



## cosmicbike (4 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Well that was better than expected.



Quite, not as dull as I was expecting.


----------



## figbat (4 Sep 2022)

Same circus entertainment from Ferrari.


----------



## Phaeton (4 Sep 2022)

I don't want to spoil it for those who haven't watched it, but I do think Junior ought to be be looking at at least a 1 race ban for the overtake with a stricken car at the side of the track.


----------



## Illaveago (4 Sep 2022)

Excuse me while I throw up!
I don't think I have ever heard so much grovelling ! Channel 4 have excelled themselves in praising Red Bull. I think Christian Horner must have written the script.


----------



## Phaeton (4 Sep 2022)

As soon as I heard it was Mr Chin doing the post race interviews on the grid I switched off


----------



## classic33 (4 Sep 2022)

Illaveago said:


> Excuse me while I throw up!
> I don't think I have ever heard so much grovelling ! Channel 4 have excelled themselves in praising Red Bull. I think Christian Horner must have written the script.


Maybe if Wolff was more willing to appear on camera they could show other teams more. Haas, McLaren, Ferrari, Williams and Alpine have all been contacted on the pit wall during the race. Mercedes have basically said "No" to this. Doesn't show them in the best light.


----------



## Reynard (4 Sep 2022)

Footage from Alonso's "driver's eye view"helmet cam is amazing.

I would *SO* like to drive this circuit. It's sort of like Brands-Next-The-Sea!


----------



## Reynard (4 Sep 2022)

classic33 said:


> Maybe if Wolff was more willing to appear on camera they could show other teams more. Haas, McLaren, Ferrari, Williams and Alpine have all been contacted on the pit wall during the race. Mercedes have basically said "No" to this. Doesn't show them in the best light.



I think they're well within their rights to say no, and I actually think declining to do so i far better than having a mic shoved under your nose at a *really* inappropriate time.

It's meant to be top line competitive sport. Reality TV is thataway -------->


----------



## Illaveago (4 Sep 2022)

Let me think ! 
How did the last race of last year finish ?
Have Mercedes taken a leaf out of Ferrari's strategy book ?


----------



## Phaeton (4 Sep 2022)

classic33 said:


> Maybe if Wolff was more willing to appear on camera they could show other teams more.


He does do interviews just won't speak mid race as far as I know, but he had a situation to deal with today, he had a very irate driver to calm down, what Hamilton didn't work out was that as soon as Bottas stopped he'd lost the race, there is no scenario of whatever tyres he was on where he could win. He stayed out as he did he lost, he came in & took on used reds he lost although he may have stayed on the podium


Reynard said:


> I would *SO* like to drive this circuit. It's sort of like Brands-Next-The-Sea!


Me too, TBH it looks a lot better than Brands, it might even rival Cadwell


----------



## Reynard (4 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Me too, TBH it looks a lot better than Brands, it might even rival Cadwell



Cadwell's one of the circuits I don't have any experience of. 

There's an element of Rockingham as well tho, what with the banked stuff - and I've plenty experience of that place.


----------



## icowden (5 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> He does do interviews just won't speak mid race as far as I know, but he had a situation to deal with today, he had a very irate driver to calm down, what Hamilton didn't work out was that as soon as Bottas stopped he'd lost the race, there is no scenario of whatever tyres he was on where he could win. He stayed out as he did he lost, he came in & took on used reds he lost although he may have stayed on the podium



So what do we think about the current system of being able to use a safety car for a "free tyre change"? Keep or get rid?
I'm not keen on it personally - I think it turns the race into a gambling competition where some people get lucky and some don't, rather than the race being about skill in driving and car design.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (5 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> He does do interviews just won't speak mid race as far as I know, but he had a situation to deal with today, he had a very irate driver to calm down, what Hamilton didn't work out was that as soon as Bottas stopped he'd lost the race, there is no scenario of whatever tyres he was on where he could win. He stayed out as he did he lost, he came in & took on used reds he lost although he may have stayed on the podium
> 
> Me too, TBH it looks a lot better than Brands, it might even rival Cadwell



I think what's most encouraging is that Lewis hasn't lost his fire. Give him something competitive next year and we could be in for a classic.


----------



## Phaeton (5 Sep 2022)

icowden said:


> So what do we think about the current system of being able to use a safety car for a "free tyre change"? Keep or get rid?
> I'm not keen on it personally - I think it turns the race into a gambling competition where some people get lucky and some don't, rather than the race being about skill in driving and car design.



I think they need to adopt the NASCAR style or at least a version of it, I don't know the full rules but when a yellow flag is thrown the pit lane entry is closed, except for refuelling ( which is not relevant in F1) then with 1 lap to go the pit lane is re-opened. There will still be winners & losers, the virtual safety car should be scrapped, it either warrants a safety car or it doesn't.

Unfortunately as soon as Bottas stopped on the track the way it is now Hamilton had lost the race, Verstappen was always going to win, the question really where was Hamilton going to finish 2, 3 or 4th hindsight is wonderful, they should have stopped him & taken 2nd, which would probably relegated Russell to 4th IF they could have double stacked them in the lane, but I'm not sure they could.

I still believe Verstappen would still have won, but Hamilton lost the race earlier then he could/should of, again hindsight is wonderful, but if he had trundled all the way down the start/finish straight & only accelerated 20M before the line, Verstappen would have not got around him into turn 1 on that lap which would have held him up, allowed Russell to put pressure on him although he would have had to defend against Leclerc it would have been far more exciting to watch.

I'm still amazed nothing is being said about the Sainz/Norris overtake, maybe it was the viewing angle, but to me he was well within the yellow flag area & TBH honest even if he wasn't he shouldn't have been putting his car between Norris & Bottas's, but then again I'm not a professional driver & have no killer instinct or win at all cost attitude.

Edit:- Could/Would Mercedes have been allowed to orchestrate the restart, could they have by some code got Russell onto the back of Verstappen going down the straight & then give a countdown as to when Hamilton was going to bolt? I think they can all hear each others radio now, but some form of codeword so that Russell knew 3 seconds later Hamilton was going, maybe I'm now in the realms of fantasy.


----------



## FishFright (5 Sep 2022)

Reynard said:


> I think they're well within their rights to say no, and I actually think declining to do so i far better than having a mic shoved under your nose at a *really* inappropriate time.
> 
> It's meant to be top line competitive sport. Reality TV is thataway -------->



They were very keen when winning


----------



## Cerdic (5 Sep 2022)

Reynard said:


> Cadwell's one of the circuits I don't have any experience of.
> 
> There's an element of Rockingham as well tho, what with the banked stuff - and I've plenty experience of that place.



I only went to Rockingham once. Great track and great spectator facilities, I thought. Would have loved to see Touring Cars on the oval! Yes, yes, I know, I know...

Shame it’s no longer used. Still, it doesn’t seem to have been knocked down yet so who knows, maybe a miracle will happen!


----------



## Reynard (5 Sep 2022)

Cerdic said:


> I only went to Rockingham once. Great track and great spectator facilities, I thought. Would have loved to see Touring Cars on the oval! Yes, yes, I know, I know...
> 
> Shame it’s no longer used. Still, it doesn’t seem to have been knocked down yet so who knows, maybe a miracle will happen!



Apparently plans are afoot to open it for racing again, either next year or the year after. Fingers crossed!

Rockingham's fabby. Spent eight seasons on the fenceline as a photographer there. My best memory was being taken around the oval by Colin White in a BMW M5. He tried to make me scream, but couldn't. I was having way too much fun. 

Oh, and if anyone's wondering, he's on the mend after his Ginetta crash at Thruxton. Spoke to his brother on FB the other night, and he's had surgery to fix his ankle.


----------



## Phaeton (5 Sep 2022)

Reynard said:


> Oh, and if anyone's wondering, he's on the mend after his Ginetta crash at Thruxton. Spoke to his brother on FB the other night, and he's had surgery to fix his ankle.


That's good it looked quite nasty & there seems to have been radio silence on how the drivers were


----------



## Reynard (5 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> That's good it looked quite nasty & there seems to have been radio silence on how the drivers were



It was nasty. The other driver involved (Mike Brown) didn't come away from that as lightly as Colin; pelvis broken in three places, six broken ribs, broken collarbone, broken ankle and broken thumb.


----------



## dave r (9 Sep 2022)

Penalties, this lot should shake the grid up nicely.

*Italian GP Penalties*
Max Verstappen - 5 places
Sergio Perez - 10 places
Valtteri Bottas - 15 places
Carlos Sainz - 20 places + 5 places (gearbox)
Yuki Tsunoda - Back of the grid
Lewis Hamilton - Back of the grid



https://www.crash.net/f1/news/10118...f1-drivers-taking-engine-penalties-italian-gp


----------



## Jody (9 Sep 2022)

Is 20 (the back) +5 further back than the back?


----------



## FishFright (9 Sep 2022)

dave r said:


> Penalties, this lot should shake the grid up nicely.
> 
> *Italian GP Penalties*
> Max Verstappen - 5 places
> ...



All these power train penalties with so many races to go really should prompt a revision of the restrictions on numbers.

And with more qualifying ruining, pointless, money grabbing and expensive Saturday not really races to come this should make the revision even more urgent.


----------



## glasgowcyclist (9 Sep 2022)

Jody said:


> Is 20 (the back) +5 further back than the back?



I think he’s sitting in the back seat of the medical car.


----------



## Phaeton (9 Sep 2022)

dave r said:


> Carlos Sainz - 20 places + 5 places (gearbox)
> Yuki Tsunoda - Back of the grid
> Lewis Hamilton - Back of the grid





Jody said:


> Is 20 (the back) +5 further back than the back?


I must admit to being a little confused as to what will constitute the back of the grid, I understand that depending on how they qualify Tsunoda & Hamilton's positions could be either way around so 19 & 20, but will they be in front or behind Sainz, or although he has 25 grid slots, they have so many more it was just easier to say back of the grid, was it Vettell last year that had a 55 grid slot penalty?


----------



## Jody (9 Sep 2022)

glasgowcyclist said:


> I think he’s sitting in the back seat of the medical car.



Might have a better shot in that than trusting the Ferrari strategists


----------



## Jody (9 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I must admit to being a little confused as to what will constitute the back of the grid, I understand that depending on how they qualify Tsunoda & Hamilton's positions could be either way around so 19 & 20, but will they be in front or behind Sainz, or although he has 25 grid slots, they have so many more it was just easier to say back of the grid, was it Vettell last year that had a 55 grid slot penalty?



It's a shoot system


----------



## Reynard (9 Sep 2022)

Wasn't there a bit of a kickback over grid penalties in the recent past? I seem to remember some really silly penalties being handed out at one point.

Wouldn't it make sense if any "excess" gets either a) carried over to the next event or b) the driver is made to start from the pit lane with a time penalty applied (wait at the top of the pit lane to be released) if the original penalty exceeds a set number of grid slots.


----------



## FishFright (9 Sep 2022)

Reynard said:


> Wasn't there a bit of a kickback over grid penalties in the recent past? I seem to remember some really silly penalties being handed out at one point.
> 
> Wouldn't it make sense if any "excess" gets either a) carried over to the next event or b) the driver is made to start from the pit lane with a time penalty applied (wait at the top of the pit lane to be released) if the original penalty exceeds a set number of grid slots.



Was it around the time of the Mclaren / Honda meltdown ?


----------



## Phaeton (9 Sep 2022)

Jody said:


> It's a shoot system


It is flawed but what's the alternative, it's also open to abuse which I suspect RB are doing this weekend with Verstappen, they took a new unit at Spa as they knew they had the speed to get through, they are doing the same this weekend, they then have 2 'fresher' engines to get to the end of the year. Mercedes did similar at Spa but Hamilton stuffed by hitting Alonso.

It's all about the cost cap, which it you don't the big 3 would just run a new engine in each car every race weekend, or as they did in the past even having special qualifying engines that would be swapped overnight although now with the Parc fermé they might not be able to do it.

You could add seconds to their start times a bit like @Reynard is suggesting but have them on the grid with their own individual starter, you're wanting to penalise the manufacturer not the driver, you could take points off them in the manufactures championship, but like now if it was 10 points for an engine, RB may decide they could afford to lose 10 points if they could influence the win.


----------



## Reynard (9 Sep 2022)

FishFright said:


> Was it around the time of the Mclaren / Honda meltdown ?



Might have been, but can't say for sure.


----------



## Reynard (9 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> You could add seconds to their start times a bit like @Reynard is suggesting but have them on the grid with their own individual starter, you're wanting to penalise the manufacturer not the driver, you could take points off them in the manufactures championship, but like now if it was 10 points for an engine, RB may decide they could afford to lose 10 points if they could influence the win.



The other thing you've got to bear in mind, is that some drivers muller their machinery while others don't. It's not just purely down to the team / manufacturer.

i suggest you go look up all about Masten Gregory...


----------



## dave r (9 Sep 2022)

Jody said:


> Is 20 (the back) +5 further back than the back?



There'll probably be drivers starting in the pit lane.


----------



## Phaeton (9 Sep 2022)

dave r said:


> There'll probably be drivers starting in the pit lane.



Presumably theres an order for that too


----------



## dave r (9 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Presumably theres an order for that too



There will be.


----------



## icowden (9 Sep 2022)

It's interesting that Verstapped has taken yet another new engine. Looks like their engines aren't lasting very long, but they have room within the budget to keep providing new ones so that Max has the pace to offset the detriment?


----------



## dave r (10 Sep 2022)

Now 9 drivers taking engine penalties.

*Italian GP Penalties*

Max Verstappen - 5 places

Esteban Ocon - 5 places

Sergio Perez - 10 places

Mick Schumacher - 10 places

Kevin Magnussen - 15 places

Valtteri Bottas - 15 places

Carlos Sainz - Back of the grid

Yuki Tsunoda - Back of the grid

Lewis Hamilton - Back of the grid


https://www.crash.net/f1/news/10118...f1-drivers-taking-engine-penalties-italian-gp


----------



## Reynard (10 Sep 2022)

Albon out of the race as he's gone down with appendicitis. He'll be replaced at Williams for this weekend by Nyck de Vries.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/62862712


----------



## Phaeton (10 Sep 2022)

Reynard said:


> Albon out of the race as he's gone down with appendicitis. He'll be replaced at Williams for this weekend by Nyck de Vries.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/62862712



That will be interesting to see if he can mix it with the big boys, if he doesn't beat his team mate it won't bode well for him.


----------



## icowden (10 Sep 2022)

Anyone else finding it weird that the BBC seem to not be reporting on the GP - no sign of live reporting on practice, just a single entry from yesterday.
Maybe they don't approve of the race going ahead?


----------



## Phaeton (10 Sep 2022)

It's the BBC nuff said, they haven't a clue what happens outside the ivory tower or what their audience wants.


----------



## Jody (10 Sep 2022)

Reynard said:


> Albon out of the race as he's gone down with appendicitis. He'll be replaced at Williams for this weekend by Nyck de Vries.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/62862712



Good luck recovering quickly from an Appendix removal.

Reckons he's back for Singapore. I'm not so sure.


----------



## Jody (10 Sep 2022)

dave r said:


> Now 9 drivers taking engine penalties.
> 
> *Italian GP Penalties*
> 
> ...



Might aswell let them all have a free engine and everyone start from the back


----------



## Jody (10 Sep 2022)

Thinking about it, the teams should come up with a secret nod and all have engine "failure" on the same day.


----------



## icowden (10 Sep 2022)

Jody said:


> Thinking about it, the teams should come up with a secret nod and all have engine "failure" on the same day.


You beat me to it...


----------



## cougie uk (10 Sep 2022)

icowden said:


> Anyone else finding it weird that the BBC seem to not be reporting on the GP - no sign of live reporting on practice, just a single entry from yesterday.
> Maybe they don't approve of the race going ahead?



Easy to find. 3 pages of updates. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/formula1/58920095


----------



## Reynard (10 Sep 2022)

And live radio commentary on the website too - currently listening to it.

Sam Bird's the second commentator this week. Happy Reynard


----------



## Illaveago (10 Sep 2022)

Why are there different penalties for having a new PU?


----------



## dave r (10 Sep 2022)

Illaveago said:


> Why are there different penalties for having a new PU?



Penalties are given in the following manner:


The first time an additional element is used, the driver gets a 10-place grid penalty
The next time an additional element is used, the driver gets a five-place grid penalty
If a driver incurs a penalty exceeding 15 grid places, they will be required to start the race at the back

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/...ne-penalties-work.7aLmj23MgHiv9Rin48ROrY.html


----------



## icowden (10 Sep 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Easy to find. 3 pages of updates.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/formula1/58920095



That was 3rd practice and qually. I was looking for practice 1 and 2, which consists of this page:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/formula1/58920093

Clearly nothing happened whatsoever!


----------



## Reynard (10 Sep 2022)

icowden said:


> That was 3rd practice and qually. I was looking for practice 1 and 2, which consists of this page:
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/formula1/58920093
> 
> Clearly nothing happened whatsoever!




View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZt5_27mGcE


Sorry, couldn't resist...


----------



## Illaveago (10 Sep 2022)

dave r said:


> Penalties are given in the following manner:
> 
> 
> The first time an additional element is used, the driver gets a 10-place grid penalty
> ...



I don't know why Verstappen only gets a 5 place penalty when he has used more than his number of alloted engines whereas Hamilton starts at the back of the grid .
I also don't understand why Lewis wasted tyres unless it was to give Russell a tow in qualifying .


----------



## Phaeton (10 Sep 2022)

I believe he is just taking the actual ICE part of the drive unit whereas Hamilton it's taking a full unit, ICE, turbo, regen unit the whole 9 yards


----------



## Illaveago (11 Sep 2022)

I see that Gasly is asking where he is supposed to be on the grid !


----------



## FishFright (11 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> It is flawed but what's the alternative, it's also open to abuse which I suspect RB are doing this weekend with Verstappen, they took a new unit at Spa as they knew they had the speed to get through, they are doing the same this weekend, they then have 2 'fresher' engines to get to the end of the year. Mercedes did similar at Spa but Hamilton stuffed by hitting Alonso.
> 
> It's all about the cost cap, which it you don't the big 3 would just run a new engine in each car every race weekend, or as they did in the past even having special qualifying engines that would be swapped overnight although now with the Parc fermé they might not be able to do it.
> 
> You could add seconds to their start times a bit like @Reynard is suggesting but have them on the grid with their own individual starter, you're wanting to penalise the manufacturer not the driver, you could take points off them in the manufactures championship, but like now if it was 10 points for an engine, RB may decide they could afford to lose 10 points if they could influence the win.



Taking fresh engines tactically has been happening since the engine restrictions came in , although I did half expect a change after how many fresh powertrains towards the end of last season.

Also engines are not included in the cost cap , for now at least.

ETA I think engines aren't included due to them not being developed by the teams directly.


----------



## Phaeton (11 Sep 2022)

Brundell has just commented on a friend of his has suggested that the grid stays as it is & that the manufacturers should lose points based on a percentage depending where they are in the standing, so of like the idea but not sure exactly who it would work


----------



## Phaeton (11 Sep 2022)

What a joke


----------



## Beebo (11 Sep 2022)

Finishing under a safety car. 
I bet the irony isn’t lost on Hamilton.


----------



## Reynard (11 Sep 2022)

Beebo said:


> Finishing under a safety car.
> I bet the irony isn’t lost on Hamilton.



Nor is the booboo from race control, after the Safety Car picked up the wrong car.

*facepalm*


----------



## Phaeton (11 Sep 2022)

Reynard said:


> Nor is the booboo from race control, after the Safety Car picked up the wrong car.
> 
> *facepalm*



Or that it allowed 'some' cars to overtake it.


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (11 Sep 2022)

Italian fans gracious in defeat I see.


----------



## Reynard (11 Sep 2022)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> Italian fans gracious in defeat I see.



Always makes me laugh when commentators call them "the most knowledgeable fans in the world"

If it's not a red car with a nag painted on it, they don't care. Times when both cars have retired early, the grandstands have emptied out before the race is finished.


----------



## Illaveago (11 Sep 2022)

I would have liked to have seen the safety car and a car trying to overtake it both taken out. At least it would have been a more interesting finish .


----------



## Reynard (11 Sep 2022)

Meant to say this earlier, but the plans to rename the Parabolica as Alboreto seem to have sunk without trace...


----------



## FishFright (11 Sep 2022)

Reynard said:


> Always makes me laugh when commentators call them "the most knowledgeable fans in the world"
> 
> If it's not a red car with a nag painted on it, they don't care. Times when both cars have retired early, the grandstands have emptied out before the race is finished.



Rather like the Brazilians leaving en masse if Senna went out.


----------



## Reynard (11 Sep 2022)

And didn't Nyck de Vries do well? 

Just shows that Formula E does chuck up a good driver every now and again. 

And a good radio commentator...


----------



## Phaeton (11 Sep 2022)

Difficulty is there can only be 20 on the track (currently) there's not enough space for all those that should be


----------



## Reynard (11 Sep 2022)

It's always been the case, even in the days where there were 30-plus cars and pre-qualifying at stupid-o-clock on Friday mornings.

But everyone else here says Formula E is poodoo...


----------



## FishFright (11 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Difficulty is there can only be 20 on the track (currently) there's not enough space for all those that should be



There would be room for 2 more drivers if some idiot let the teams veto another team joining.


----------



## Phaeton (11 Sep 2022)

Reynard said:


> It's always been the case, even in the days where there were 30-plus cars and pre-qualifying at stupid-o-clock on Friday mornings.
> 
> But everyone else here says Formula E is poodoo...



True but they are getting there earlier at 23? De Bryies is old by comparison


----------



## Reynard (11 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> True but they are getting there earlier at 23? De Bryies is old by comparison



I think the current era is unusual with so many drivers having come into F1 at a very young age.

The rules have since changed regarding the minimum age someone must be in order to drive an F1 car, as have the superlicence requirements. Basically it's been tightened up, and I doubt we'll see this again.

Nyck is 27 iirc. Back in the day, that would be a fairly standard age for a driver to be getting into F1. You used to have to have a full road licence before being able to race on the circuits, so you'd be starting in junior FF1600 at 17. Then add a year or two in senior FF1600, a year of FF2000, a couple of years of F3 and then maybe another couple in F3000...


----------



## Phaeton (12 Sep 2022)

Reynard said:


> But everyone else here says Formula E is poodoo...


It is, it's the format not the drivers 

But back to the Safety car, I wonder where Verstappen was when the decision to send it out was & how did he get past the pit exit in front of it, was it because he came into the pits & Russell didn't then if that was the case then wasn't he effectively in first place? 

Anyone else watch on Sky Go? I've occasionally had a lag in the sound over picture but at the start of the race yesterday they were already going into Curve Grande when the commentary said "Lights Out" I disconnected, signed in again it was the same, so I watched on Main event which didn't have the lag.


----------



## Illaveago (12 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> It is, it's the format not the drivers
> 
> But back to the Safety car, I wonder where Verstappen was when the decision to send it out was & how did he get past the pit exit in front of it, was it because he came into the pits & Russell didn't then if that was the case then wasn't he effectively in first place?
> 
> Anyone else watch on Sky Go? I've occasionally had a lag in the sound over picture but at the start of the race yesterday they were already going into Curve Grande when the commentary said "Lights Out" I disconnected, signed in again it was the same, so I watched on Main event which didn't have the lag.



Censorship! 
They are just making sure no naughty words get out !


----------



## Illaveago (12 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> It is, it's the format not the drivers
> 
> But back to the Safety car, I wonder where Verstappen was when the decision to send it out was & how did he get past the pit exit in front of it, was it because he came into the pits & Russell didn't then if that was the case then wasn't he effectively in first place?
> 
> Anyone else watch on Sky Go? I've occasionally had a lag in the sound over picture but at the start of the race yesterday they were already going into Curve Grande when the commentary said "Lights Out" I disconnected, signed in again it was the same, so I watched on Main event which didn't have the lag.



If Hamilton hadn't gone in to change tyres he could also have won if the others had changed theirs. It was a right old cock up !


----------



## figbat (12 Sep 2022)

Illaveago said:


> If Hamilton hadn't gone in to change tyres he could also have won if the others had changed theirs. It was a right old cock up !



How so? Max had enough time to stop and resume without losing the lead. I think most teams banked on the fact that it wasn't going to restart so track position was key. The biggest cock-up was the safety car picking up George as the leader when it should've been Max, meaning the whole field had to file past the safety car again to get Max at the front.


----------



## figbat (12 Sep 2022)

figbat said:


> How so? Max had enough time to stop and resume without losing the lead. I think most teams banked on the fact that it wasn't going to restart so track position was key. The biggest cock-up was the safety car picking up George as the leader when it should've been Max, meaning the whole field had to file past the safety car again to get Max at the front.



Actually, reading further into it it seems it wasn't so much a cock-up as I and others thought. Looks like it was a by-the-book execution of inflexible regulations. It all comes down to the fact that if a safety car goes out in the last 5 or so laps you can forget any further racing.


----------



## icowden (12 Sep 2022)

figbat said:


> Actually, reading further into it it seems it wasn't so much a cock-up as I and others thought. Looks like it was a by-the-book execution of inflexible regulations. It all comes down to the fact that if a safety car goes out in the last 5 or so laps you can forget any further racing.


Unless its at Abu Dhabi at the end of the WDC and you want a new WDC...


----------



## Phaeton (12 Sep 2022)

figbat said:


> How so? Max had enough time to stop and resume without losing the lead. I think most teams banked on the fact that it wasn't going to restart so track position was key. The biggest cock-up was the safety car picking up George as the leader when it should've been Max, meaning the whole field had to file past the safety car again to get Max at the front.



It all comes down to where the cars are on the track at the point the Safety car is deployed, if the Safety car is released, then Verstappen, LeClerc & Russell came into the pits, Hamilton didn't & drove up the Safety car then yes he would be in the lead & would have won. But if the Safety car is deployed, Verstappen, LeClrec & Russell come into the pits & exit before Hamilton passes the pit exit then the order stays the same.

I still can't get my head around the sequence of events that allows Verstappen & LeClerc to get into the pits & back out again before the Safety car is deployed, I can't work out how they ended up in front of the Safety car, which surely they must have been for Russell to have been behind it, otherwise he would have overtaken them whilst they were in the pits


----------



## Jody (12 Sep 2022)

icowden said:


> Unless its at Abu Dhabi at the end of the WDC and you want a new WDC...



Funny that


----------



## figbat (12 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> It all comes down to where the cars are on the track at the point the Safety car is deployed, if the Safety car is released, then Verstappen, LeClerc & Russell came into the pits, Hamilton didn't & drove up the Safety car then yes he would be in the lead & would have won. But if the Safety car is deployed, Verstappen, LeClrec & Russell come into the pits & exit before Hamilton passes the pit exit then the order stays the same.
> 
> I still can't get my head around the sequence of events that allows Verstappen & LeClerc to get into the pits & back out again before the Safety car is deployed, I can't work out how they ended up in front of the Safety car, which surely they must have been for Russell to have been behind it, otherwise he would have overtaken them whilst they were in the pits



The SC came out of the pits after Max et al had already gone past. The highest-placed person who was first to reach the SC was George. It turns out that rather than let him and the rest of the pack past and therefore keep a constant stream of traffic passing Danny’s stricken car, they chose to let a queue form behind George. Max was already part-way around the lap and would have joined the queue near the back, but decided to pit and so took longer to reach the queue. He had enough time between himself and Charles to go in and come out again before Charles arrived. Charles likewise ahead of George, so he pitted too.

This left a queue behind the SC which was not in race order so then they had to let everyone ahead of Max file past so that Max was at the head of the queue. After that, had they had time, they may have further allowed _all _lapped cars to pass the SC and then a further lap before coming in. However there was not time for all this, so it finished behind the SC. There was no mechanism by which Lewis could’ve gained the lead save for some incredibly botched pit stops for the leaders.


----------



## dave r (12 Sep 2022)

Update on Alex Albon, I wish him a speedy recovery.

https://www.williamsf1.com/posts/30a27ca2-26e6-4b01-b050-9fe8874a2d52/an-update-on-alex-albon


----------



## Reynard (12 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> It is, it's the format not the drivers


----------



## Illaveago (13 Sep 2022)

I was just reading about some new ideas that they are thinking of bringing in for F1.
It seems like they want to mess it up .
The way it is at the moment I am beginning to go off it . There is no opposition to Red Bull . The championship has been sewn up and the only bits of interest now seem to be when the FIA or Ferrari cock things up .
I wish they would put more historic car racing on as that is becoming more interesting .


----------



## Phaeton (13 Sep 2022)

But surely they only brought in the changes for this year as they were upset about Mercedes winning that got what they wanted tough if it's more Red Bull


----------



## Illaveago (13 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> But surely they only brought in the changes for this year as they were upset about Mercedes winning that got what they wanted tough if it's more Red Bull



Last year Red Bull were on par with Mercedes otherwise the championship wouldn't have ended on the final race ? To change the rules in such a way to create one powerful team isn't creating an even playing field .
One team's dominance can depend on drivers , both opposition and team drivers . Lewis and Verstappen are equally matched . Perez is nowhere near as good as Verstappen neither is Russell against Lewis . In previous years Lewis Hamilton had the likes of Alonso , Button and Rosberg as team members to fight against yet alone other drivers in a race . At present Verstappen hardly has any opposition .


----------



## icowden (13 Sep 2022)

Illaveago said:


> The way it is at the moment I am beginning to go off it . There is no opposition to Red Bull . The championship has been sewn up and the only bits of interest now seem to be when the FIA or Ferrari cock things up .


To be fair, if Ferrari hadn't made such a massive number of blunders at the start of the season, they would be neck and neck with Red Bull. A couple of errors from LeClerc and a load of strategy and reliability issues have done for them. It does seem that Red Bull far and away had the best car design and it's impossible for the other teams to catch up to them this year.

I would imagine Merc are now working hard on next years car to bring themselves back into contention. They will have a mass of research from this year about how the new rules work and where they need to make changes.

I think we are tending to miss some subtleties as well. Although Red Bull have clearly run away with the championship (both constructors and drivers) both Merc and Ferrari are in with a shout of coming second. Russell is only 16 points behind LeClerc and Merc are only 35 points behind Ferrari.


----------



## Phaeton (14 Sep 2022)

Illaveago said:


> Last year Red Bull were on par with Mercedes otherwise the championship wouldn't have ended on the final race ? To change the rules in such a way to create one powerful team isn't creating an even playing field .
> One team's dominance can depend on drivers , both opposition and team drivers . Lewis and Verstappen are equally matched . Perez is nowhere near as good as Verstappen neither is Russell against Lewis . In previous years Lewis Hamilton had the likes of Alonso , Button and Rosberg as team members to fight against yet alone other drivers in a race . At present Verstappen hardly has any opposition .



But they didn't know that Red Bull would be so successful in the interpretation of them when they introduced the new rules, they weren't just done over winter, it had been going on 2+ years. Also with RB you have to remember that the car is built around Verstappen, if he wants a slack tail happy car then that's what they build, his team mate has to learnt to live with it or get swapped out. They clearly are doing something the others aren't Ferrari have changed something & Mercedes got it completely wrong.

With Russell that's a hard one currently, he's certainly a very very good driver, does he have the 20 years experience of Hamilton, No, but is he leading Hamilton in the championship, Yes, could he realistically end up 3rd on the podium at the end of the year in the WDC it's looking good for him, to me he has been the motivator in the team showing Hamilton what is possible with a bad car.


----------



## dave r (14 Sep 2022)

Illaveago said:


> Last year Red Bull were on par with Mercedes otherwise the championship wouldn't have ended on the final race ? To change the rules in such a way to create one powerful team isn't creating an even playing field .
> One team's dominance can depend on drivers , both opposition and team drivers . Lewis and Verstappen are equally matched . Perez is nowhere near as good as Verstappen neither is Russell against Lewis . In previous years Lewis Hamilton had the likes of Alonso , Button and Rosberg as team members to fight against yet alone other drivers in a race . At present Verstappen hardly has any opposition .



I recon Hamilton and Russel are evenly matched, most of the difference between them is Hamilton's extra experience. LeClerc and Verstappen are evenly matched its the cars and the teams that have made the difference.


----------



## figbat (14 Sep 2022)

George is a real talent. Look what he did in Lewis’s car in Bahrain, a car that was too small for him and he wasn’t accustomed to. He was on the way to winning that race easily if not for pit stop blunders. He showed Bottas a clean pair of heels. Not to mention the pole in the Williams at Spa.


----------



## Illaveago (14 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> But they didn't know that Red Bull would be so successful in the interpretation of them when they introduced the new rules, they weren't just done over winter, it had been going on 2+ years. Also with RB you have to remember that the car is built around Verstappen, if he wants a slack tail happy car then that's what they build, his team mate has to learnt to live with it or get swapped out. They clearly are doing something the others aren't Ferrari have changed something & Mercedes got it completely wrong.
> 
> With Russell that's a hard one currently, he's certainly a very very good driver, does he have the 20 years experience of Hamilton, No, but is he leading Hamilton in the championship, Yes, could he realistically end up 3rd on the podium at the end of the year in the WDC it's looking good for him, to me he has been the motivator in the team showing Hamilton what is possible with a bad car.



I can see why Lewis is angry with his design team . Initially they had a car which was worse than their customer teams . It has taken them most of this season to get close to Ferrari . As Lewis has pointed out Adrian Newey is the only person who has had previous experience of ground effect cars and the new rules have played right into their hands .
Russell has had a lot of luck ! Safety cars have played into his hands quite a lot . The last race Russell benefitted from a tow from Lewis during qualifying. His experience with the poor handling Williams cars may have helped him to adjust better to the new car than Lewis who liked his cars to handle his way . I don't believe he is as good as Lewis or Lando Norris , he may be fast but he hasn't done much overtaking or defending .
I agree that Red Bull have some trick which other teams haven't figured out or can't prove at the moment . It is strange how they seem to turn up a t a circuit with a car that performs straight away .


----------



## icowden (14 Sep 2022)

Illaveago said:


> The last race Russell benefitted from a tow from Lewis during qualifying. His experience with the poor handling Williams cars may have helped him to adjust better to the new car than Lewis who liked his cars to handle his way .


This in spades. Russell has spent three years trying to get the best out of terrible cars at the back of the field. He is used to having to fight with the car to get it to work whereas Lewis has got used to the car working the way he wants it to as the Merc designers build it to suit him.

Luck has played a big part as has Lewis taking on most of the experimental setups whilst George has had the more tried and tested ones.


----------



## Phaeton (14 Sep 2022)

icowden said:


> Lewis taking on most of the experimental setups whilst George has had the more tried and tested ones.



Not heard about this?

I'm not taking anything away from Hamilton, but Russell has done a better job this year so far, luck or no luck on either side, the points don't lie. 

Now whether the last race of the season last year was still playing on his mind & then being dropped into a terrible car, compared with Russell being given an opportunity of a lifetime that he have worked so hard for, raised his motivational levels.

Is Hamilton better than Russell, probably yes, does Russell have the raw talent that Hamilton had at 24, yes I think he does, we've not really seen them race each other, it's not been in the team interest to let them, Yet!


----------



## Jody (14 Sep 2022)

Russel is a good solid driver but let's not forget Lattifi has flattered any teammate. As shown by last weekend.


----------



## icowden (14 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Not heard about this?


It was in a statement from Toto after the first 8 or 9 races:

https://www.racefans.net/2022/06/11...sell-is-due-to-set-up-experiments-says-wolff/

Hamilton again got the worst experimental set up in Canada
https://uk.motor1.com/news/592962/hamilton-canada-f1-setup-experiments-disaster/

and then



> Jun.28 - Lewis Hamilton wants to hand the mantle of experimental car setups to teammate George Russell ahead of the British pair's home race this weekend.
> The seven time world champion called his Mercedes "undriveable" in Montreal practice recently but ultimately raced to the podium by Sunday.
> The problem on Friday appeared to be radical experimentation with car setup, as the reigning constructors' champions try desperately to find a way around 'porpoising'.
> "Maybe George can do the experiments in the second half of the season," Hamilton said.


The indication is that Lewis was taking the chances / risks of experimental setups to push the envelope in the hope of getting a better drive, whilst George was taking the more tried and tested / less risky set up and this has worked out well for him.


----------



## Jody (14 Sep 2022)

When the car's on song, we'll see a different Hamilton turn up.


----------



## FishFright (14 Sep 2022)

Illaveago said:


> I was just reading about some new ideas that they are thinking of bringing in for F1.
> It seems like they want to mess it up .
> The way it is at the moment I am beginning to go off it . There is no opposition to Red Bull . The championship has been sewn up and the only bits of interest now seem to be when the FIA or Ferrari cock things up .
> I wish they would put more historic car racing on as that is becoming more interesting .



There is a few historical streamed on Youtube


----------



## FishFright (14 Sep 2022)

Illaveago said:


> Last year Red Bull were on par with Mercedes otherwise the championship wouldn't have ended on the final race ? To change the rules in such a way to create one powerful team isn't creating an even playing field .
> One team's dominance can depend on drivers , both opposition and team drivers . Lewis and Verstappen are equally matched . Perez is nowhere near as good as Verstappen neither is Russell against Lewis . In previous years Lewis Hamilton had the likes of Alonso , Button and Rosberg as team members to fight against yet alone other drivers in a race . At present Verstappen hardly has any opposition .



I'll quibble the point of Russel being nowhere near as good as Hamilton , guess which one is ahead on points? 
This is the first year in the same car so the only time they can be measured properly.


----------



## figbat (14 Sep 2022)

FishFright said:


> There is a few historical streamed on Youtube



There’s Goodwood Revival this weekend too - I love watching this and went one year in period dress. It is still going ahead, with appropriate reverence,


----------



## Phaeton (23 Sep 2022)

Latiffi to leave Williams at the end of the year, Albon already confirmed, does this leave the door open for Ricciardo as Red Bull are trying to nab DeVries, will Ricciardo have to wait until that merry-go-around until he gets to find out?


----------



## dave r (23 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Latiffi to leave Williams at the end of the year, Albon already confirmed, does this leave the door open for Ricciardo as Red Bull are trying to nab DeVries, will Ricciardo have to wait until that merry-go-around until he gets to find out?



The question is, will Riccardo want to go to Williams?


----------



## icowden (23 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Latiffi to leave Williams at the end of the year, Albon already confirmed, does this leave the door open for Ricciardo as Red Bull are trying to nab DeVries, will Ricciardo have to wait until that merry-go-around until he gets to find out?


And also, given the loss of Latifi's wallet, will Williams be able to afford Ricciardo, even if they wanted him?


----------



## Phaeton (23 Sep 2022)

dave r said:


> The question is, will Riccardo want to go to Williams?





icowden said:


> And also, given the loss of Latifi's wallet, will Williams be able to afford Ricciardo, even if they wanted him?


I think it's more of will there be any other option in F1


----------



## dave r (23 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I think it's more of will there be any other option in F1



Even if its the only option will he want to take it? He's already talking about taking a test driver roll or leaving f F1.


----------



## Reynard (23 Sep 2022)

Last I heard was Riccardo to Alpine or Riccardo to become the Mercedes reserve.

Aaaah, the joy of the Silly Season...


----------



## Phaeton (23 Sep 2022)

Reynard said:


> Last I heard was Riccardo to Alpine or Riccardo to become the Mercedes reserve.
> 
> Aaaah, the joy of the Silly Season...



Alpine have set their sights on Gasly I think, which makes sense a French team (ignore UK based) with 2x French drivers.

I think he could be good for Williams, as long as his & Albon's style are the same, so they only have to build one car.

Or he needs to get out completely & go Endurance racing or even BTCC, although F1 drivers don't seem to have done very well in BTCC in the past although I'm sure @Reynard has better memory than I to prove me wrong


----------



## Reynard (23 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Or he needs to get out completely & go Endurance racing or even BTCC, although F1 drivers don't seem to have done very well in BTCC in the past although I'm sure @Reynard has better memory than I to prove me wrong



The majority who have crossed over from F1 to BTCC have struggled over the years, even Derek Warwick, my main man - although there were valid reasons for that. Derek is a stock car, F3 and sportscar world champion (twice WSC runner-up too), so not a shabby driver by any means. It is hard to quantify though, because the F1 drivers who did end up in Touring Cars weren't always out of the top drawer.

Gabriele Tarquini did win the 94 BTCC for Alfa, and I recall Nicola Larini having a lot of success in Europe, but David Brabham was middling, Mark Blundell struggled, so did Jonathan Palmer. And Mansell kept on crashing... It's a very different style of racing requiring a rather unique and specialized skillset.

There has been a recent history of drivers crossing to and from F1 via DTM, but the DTM these days is a very different beast compared to the BTCC anyways. IIRC the DTM is now for GT-spec cars.

And tbh, I'm not really sure any of the current BTCC teams could actually *afford* someone like Daniel Riccardo. He'd definitely draw in the crowds, but the days of the Supertouring-sized budgets are long gone.


----------



## figbat (23 Sep 2022)

Other common routes are WEC, Formula E and IndyCar. Mark Webber did OK in WEC (when he wasn’t try to fly it) and there are a few ex-F1 in FE, although they tend to be rejects rather than experienced hires.


----------



## Phaeton (23 Sep 2022)

IndyCar would be a good call, I think the Yanks would love him, but only if he won, whatever he does he needs to be successful or whatever that monkey that's climbed on his back the last couple of years will have won.


----------



## Jenkins (23 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Or he needs to get out completely & go Endurance racing or even BTCC, although F1 drivers don't seem to have done very well in BTCC in the past although I'm sure @Reynard has better memory than I to prove me wrong


Aussie V8 Supercars?


----------



## Reynard (23 Sep 2022)

Jenkins said:


> Aussie V8 Supercars?



Oh yes, good call! Or what about that big engine single seater thing that was being trumpeted before Covid hit. I remember watching a race with Felipe Massa in it...


----------



## Jenkins (23 Sep 2022)

Reynard said:


> Oh yes, good call! Or what about that big engine single seater thing that was being trumpeted before Covid hit. I remember watching a race with Felipe Massa in it...



That'll be their attempt at reviving F5000 in a modern style. Haven't heard anything on that this year at all and I think it only had about 10 entrants last year with some reliability problems.


----------



## Reynard (23 Sep 2022)

Jenkins said:


> That'll be their attempt at reviving F5000 in a modern style. Haven't heard anything on that this year at all and I think it only had about 10 entrants last year with some reliability problems.



Yes, that's the one.

And it all started so well, but haven't seen or heard anything about it in a while. It's a good premise and would work if it's done right, but sounds like so many other series that have fallen by the wayside.


----------



## dave r (24 Sep 2022)

Moto GP, in only his second race back from injury Marc Marquez secured pole in tricky conditions in Japan. 

https://www.crash.net/motogp/results/1012762/1/2022-japanese-motogp-motegi-full-qualifying-results

https://www.crash.net/motogp/results/1012762/1/2022-japanese-motogp-motegi-full-qualifying-results


----------



## Illaveago (24 Sep 2022)

I went to Castle Combe Autumn Classics today.
Here are some pics.


----------



## Phaeton (24 Sep 2022)

What are the little single seaters?


----------



## Jenkins (24 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> What are the little single seaters?



500cc Formula 3. Single cylinder motorcycle engines, some running on methanol.

Edited to add: the number 99 car is running on methanol as you can see the small orange disc on the side as an indication to the marshals in case of fire


----------



## AndyRM (24 Sep 2022)

Illaveago said:


> I went to Castle Combe Autumn Classics today.
> Here are some pics.



What is the silver #12 car? Looks mad!


----------



## Jenkins (24 Sep 2022)

AndyRM said:


> What is the silver #12 car? Looks mad!


According to TSL-Timing, that's a Comet Mk1 in the 500cc race. Not as mad as this Monaco 500 seen at Snetterton a few years ago...


----------



## Reynard (24 Sep 2022)

Jenkins said:


> 500cc Formula 3. Single cylinder motorcycle engines, some running on methanol.
> 
> Edited to add: the number 99 car is running on methanol as you can see the small orange disc on the side as an indication to the marshals in case of fire



That was my thought as soon as I saw them. Typically mid to late 1950s, maybe into the early 60s at a pinch - the era when Formula 1 was only running 1.5 litre engines.

F3 went up to 1 litre capacity shortly after, before adopting the 2000cc engines with an air restrictor in the mid-ish 1970s.


----------



## Illaveago (25 Sep 2022)

Jenkins said:


> 500cc Formula 3. Single cylinder motorcycle engines, some running on methanol.
> 
> Edited to add: the number 99 car is running on methanol as you can see the small orange disc on the side as an indication to the marshals in case of fire



Ah! So that's why it blitzed everything else! It won the race .


----------



## Illaveago (25 Sep 2022)

The green E type lead for most of the race until the last lap . It was being chased by a TVR Tuscan or Vixen. The E type was power sliding through the corners. The yellow Ford Capri was also leading until a couple of laps before the end, it was overtaken by the Brut Capri. The yellow Capri went wide a couple of times and retired with damage .
Austin A 40's seem to go well. I don't know where this one finished but it seemed to be going well. Somewhere above mid field I think.
There were 2 cars similar to the silver number 12. Strange looking. I couldn't think where the driver's legs were . That formula was fun to watch !


----------



## Illaveago (25 Sep 2022)

I just noticed that you can see the chain drive to the rear wheel on the silver car .


----------



## Reynard (25 Sep 2022)

Oh, Ginetta will be leaving the TOCA package at the end of this season.

Really going to miss the Juniors and the Supercup.


----------



## Jenkins (26 Sep 2022)

Reynard said:


> Oh, Ginetta will be leaving the TOCA package at the end of this season.
> 
> Really going to miss the Juniors and the Supercup.


The Juniors will be running on the same package as the British GTs and the Supercup will be no more, but drivers will be supported to enter the GT4 class within British GT I understand. Juniors will certainly be missed for the entertainment, but not so much the Supercup which seemed to me to be much like the Porches but with a cheaper car mand more classes.


----------



## Reynard (26 Sep 2022)

Jenkins said:


> The Juniors will be running on the same package as the British GTs and the Supercup will be no more, but drivers will be supported to enter the GT4 class within British GT I understand. Juniors will certainly be missed for the entertainment, but not so much the Supercup which seemed to me to be much like the Porches but with a cheaper car mand more classes.



Ah, I didn't realise they were pulling the plug on the Supercup completely... Madness, considering they only introduced the new V8 car for this year...


----------



## Reynard (26 Sep 2022)

Jenkins said:


> That'll be their attempt at reviving F5000 in a modern style. Haven't heard anything on that this year at all and I think it only had about 10 entrants last year with some reliability problems.



S5000

Oddly enough, an article about it from Motorsport.com popped up on my FB feed this morning. It's still going it seems, but looks like they've been prevented from racing at Bathurst.


----------



## Phaeton (26 Sep 2022)

Cracking BTCC races at Silverstone got a little slap happy for a few drivers bearing in mind it is supposed to be a non contact race format.

It's tightly poised for Brands, difficult to pull a winner out of the 4, at least it's the GP circuit, don't like the short loop. Personally I'd like to see Ingram or Sutton win, but that's just my dislike of BMW's, although I can't warm to Turkington at all,


----------



## Reynard (26 Sep 2022)

Tbh, I think Turkington's out of the fight unless the other three ALL have absolute stinkers. Any of Ting, Jake and Ash would be a worthy winner this year - all for different reasons.

I'm really surprised Josh Cook didn't get done for the contact with Dan Cammish at the start of race 3 - squeezing another driver into the pit wall is a no no, and if Josh hadn't caught the slide in time, that could've been absolute carnage.


----------



## Phaeton (26 Sep 2022)

Reynard said:


> I'm really surprised Josh Cook didn't get done for the contact with Dan Cammish at the start of race 3 - squeezing another driver into the pit wall is a no no, and if Josh hadn't caught the slide in time, that could've been absolute carnage.



Yes & it really knocked the wind out of Cammish's sail, he'd been going great guns up until then maybe there was suspension/steering damage, he was certainly helping Sutton stay with the leaders in the first/second race, using his boost to tow Sutton along very much like in qualifying.

Maybe Turkington doesn't want it quite as much as the others do.


----------



## Reynard (26 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Yes & it really knocked the wind out of Cammish's sail, he'd been going great guns up until then maybe there was suspension/steering damage, he was certainly helping Sutton stay with the leaders in the first/second race, using his boost to tow Sutton along very much like in qualifying.
> 
> Maybe Turkington doesn't want it quite as much as the others do.



I thought Dan had a really good opportunity to win that race - or get a podium at the very least. But with his own championship long since scuppered, he's been a very effective rear gunner for Ash, something which none of the other contenders really have.

Turkington's been "off" all year tbh - although he's been pretty consistent which is why he's still up there. Although you can't deny Jake has upstaged him big time.


----------



## matticus (27 Sep 2022)

Jenkins said:


> According to TSL-Timing, that's a Comet Mk1 in the 500cc race. Not as mad as this Monaco 500 seen at Snetterton a few years ago...
> View attachment 662259



That looks like FANTASTIC fun! (and he looks sat further from the front axle than in the "No 12" car)


----------



## byegad (27 Sep 2022)

Reynard said:


> Oh, Ginetta will be leaving the TOCA package at the end of this season.
> 
> Really going to miss the Juniors and the Supercup.



That's sad and I hope the BTCC program can find similar action series as them as replacements. I'll miss the juniors and the Supercup not being their may mean we don't have to listen to one of the commentators referring to ammerchewers instead of amateurs.


----------



## Reynard (27 Sep 2022)

byegad said:


> That's sad and I hope the BTCC program can find similar action series as them as replacements. I'll miss the juniors and the Supercup not being their may mean we don't have to listen to one of the commentators referring to ammerchewers instead of amateurs.



I hope you're talking about Paul O'Neil, and not Richard John Neil...


----------



## Illaveago (29 Sep 2022)

Here are some more pictures.


----------



## Illaveago (30 Sep 2022)

I was just wondering what the FIA could come up with to prevent Verstappen winning the World Championship at the next race seeing that they like to increase the drama by having a last race decider ?


----------



## Phaeton (30 Sep 2022)

Don't see that they can prevent the inevitable & unless they can prove the car isn't legal they are well deserved champions in both classes.


----------



## Jody (30 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Don't see that they can prevent the inevitable & unless they can prove the car isn't legal they are well deserved champions in both classes.



I don't know. Where's Massi when you need him?


----------



## Phaeton (30 Sep 2022)

Jody said:


> I don't know. Where's Massi when you need him?



Retired with his feet up on Red Bull's private island


----------



## FishFright (30 Sep 2022)

Jody said:


> I don't know. Where's Massi when you need him?



He's still working for the FIA in another position.


----------



## Jody (30 Sep 2022)

FishFright said:


> He's still working for the FIA in another position.



Shame. We could do with some entertainment


----------



## Phaeton (30 Sep 2022)

FishFright said:


> He's still working for the FIA in another position.



I thought he'd resigned?

Edit:- 



> Where is Michael Masi working now?
> 
> 
> Michael Masi has landed a new job following his Formula One exit with the Australian named the new *chairman of the V8 Supercars Commission*.2 Sept 2022/[qoute]


----------



## FishFright (30 Sep 2022)

Jody said:


> Shame. We could do with some entertainment



F1 could do with a lot less entertainment and a lot more sport but that's not fashionable.


----------



## Reynard (30 Sep 2022)

FishFright said:


> F1 could do with a lot less entertainment and a lot more sport but that's not fashionable.



In trying to gain a new audience, they've lost the old audience.

Guess I follow F1 out of habit, but there's much better racing to be found elsewhere. I think the FIA could learn a lot from TOCA. Going into the final meeting of the year, three drivers all within a handful of points of each other and one more to pick up the pieces should things go pear shaped, and it's not been engineered in any way at all.


----------



## Reynard (30 Sep 2022)

Illaveago said:


> I was just wondering what the FIA could come up with to prevent Verstappen winning the World Championship at the next race seeing that they like to increase the drama by having a last race decider ?



Time to call on the Ferrari International Assistance of course...


----------



## Jody (30 Sep 2022)

FishFright said:


> F1 could do with a lot less entertainment and a lot more sport but that's not fashionable.



My sarcasm may have been too subtle. I was having a dig at it now being entertainment


----------



## Jody (30 Sep 2022)

Reynard said:


> In trying to gain a new audience, they've lost the old audience.
> 
> Guess I follow F1 out of habit, but there's much better racing to be found elsewhere. I think the FIA could learn a lot from TOCA. Going into the final meeting of the year, three drivers all within a handful of points of each other and one more to pick up the pieces should things go pear shaped, and it's not been engineered in any way at all.



We've had some decent last races like that in F1. 

Remember Nando getting stuck behind Petrov


----------



## FishFright (30 Sep 2022)

Reynard said:


> In trying to gain a new audience, they've lost the old audience.
> 
> Guess I follow F1 out of habit, but there's much better racing to be found elsewhere. I think the FIA could learn a lot from TOCA. Going into the final meeting of the year, three drivers all within a handful of points of each other and one more to pick up the pieces should things go pear shaped, and it's not been engineered in any way at all.



I still enjoy F1 but nothing like I used to but I can't get into Touring Cars at all .


----------



## Reynard (30 Sep 2022)

Jody said:


> We've had some decent last races like that in F1.
> 
> Remember Nando getting stuck behind Petrov



The one that sticks in my mind is Mansell's rear tyre going *pop* in Adelaide in '86...


----------



## Reynard (30 Sep 2022)

FishFright said:


> I still enjoy F1 but nothing like I used to but I can't get into Touring Cars at all .



Mmmm, I've been following Touring Cars since the days of Andy Rouse in an RS500...


----------



## FishFright (30 Sep 2022)

Reynard said:


> Mmmm, I've been following Touring Cars since the days of Andy Rouse in an RS500...



I watched Saloon Car racing as a youngster with my dad , then watched quite a bit during the glory years. After that it seemed to have a grid half full of no hopers and filled with silly gimmicks to help the show. F1 is going in that direction now sadly.


----------



## Jody (30 Sep 2022)

Reynard said:


> Mmmm, I've been following Touring Cars since the days of Andy Rouse in an RS500...



RS500 * insert lots of drool emoji *


----------



## Reynard (30 Sep 2022)

FishFright said:


> I watched Saloon Car racing as a youngster with my dad , then watched quite a bit during the glory years. After that it seemed to have a grid half full of no hopers and filled with silly gimmicks to help the show. F1 is going in that direction now sadly.



That's harsh, IMHO...

Yes, a decade ago, I'd have agreed with you when it came to the BTCC, but not now. Especially since there are no more "big name" drivers as there had been in the Supertouring era. This year the quality of the field has been the best for quite some time.

Although back in the day, you used to have four classes, which was a pain to keep straight. Because you'd have the RS500s and the Rover SD1s winning the races, but the championship was often won by drivers in the smaller cars - eg John Cleland in a Vauxhall Astra.


----------



## Reynard (30 Sep 2022)

Jody said:


> RS500 * insert lots of drool emoji *



They've recently restored the Kaliber-sponsored Andy Rouse car with a view to running it in historics.


----------



## Jody (30 Sep 2022)

Amazes me that rhey still race a lot of the classics. Look at Leclerc the other month when he slammed that classic Ferrari. How do you begin to rebuild something like that.

If I had a choice of race rs500 it would be the black texaco livery.


----------



## Reynard (30 Sep 2022)

There are places that specialize in making replacement parts from the original tooling, whereas others will make stuff from scratch. IMHO racing cars are meant to be raced, and I love seeing the old machinery out there. 

Ah, the Eggenberger cars... The dark side!


----------



## Phaeton (30 Sep 2022)

Reynard said:


> IMHO racing cars are meant to be raced, and I love seeing the old machinery out there.


I have to agree, there is something sad about cars, lorries, & mechanical things sat in static museums


----------



## FishFright (30 Sep 2022)

Reynard said:


> That's harsh, IMHO...
> 
> Yes, a decade ago, I'd have agreed with you when it came to the BTCC, but not now. Especially since there are no more "big name" drivers as there had been in the Supertouring era. This year the quality of the field has been the best for quite some time.
> 
> Although back in the day, you used to have four classes, which was a pain to keep straight. Because you'd have the RS500s and the Rover SD1s winning the races, but the championship was often won by drivers in the smaller cars - eg John Cleland in a Vauxhall Astra.



I do give it a try from time to time but meh


----------



## Beebo (30 Sep 2022)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/63089233

If Redbull have breached last year’s spending cap and cheated Hamilton out of a championship then the FIA are going to come in for some major criticism.


----------



## Reynard (30 Sep 2022)

FishFright said:


> I do give it a try from time to time but meh



What's a girl gotta do to convince you?


----------



## Reynard (30 Sep 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I have to agree, there is something sad about cars, lorries, & mechanical things sat in static museums



And it's not just the poncy revival meetings like Godwood or the Silverstone Classic. There's loads of (reasonably) thriving classic series running saloons, FF1600, old F1 cars - something for everybody, really.


----------



## FishFright (30 Sep 2022)

Reynard said:


> What's a girl gotta do to convince you?



Make it good ? lol


----------



## Reynard (30 Sep 2022)

FishFright said:


> Make it good ? lol



Cake? A home cooked curry with naan & raita? Time to furkle at leisure through my very eclectic motorsport library? Or my Paul Warwick archive? A chance to try on a pair of Derek Warwick's race boots?


----------



## Illaveago (30 Sep 2022)

Reynard said:


> Mmmm, I've been following Touring Cars since the days of Andy Rouse in an RS500...



The colours of the car's in those days were so much nicer than these days .


----------



## Reynard (30 Sep 2022)

Illaveago said:


> The colours of the car's in those days were so much nicer than these days .



Yep, definitely agree with you there. Now most cares either seem to be black, black and more black, or have driven through an explosion in a paint factory.

The mid-to-late 1980s seems to be the best era for really nice liveries.


----------



## FishFright (30 Sep 2022)

Reynard said:


> Cake? A home cooked curry with naan & raita? Time to furkle at leisure through my very eclectic motorsport library? Or my Paul Warwick archive? A chance to try on a pair of Derek Warwick's race boots?



Those boots are tempting


----------



## figbat (30 Sep 2022)

FishFright said:


> Those boots are tempting



Sod that. Where do I go for the curry?


----------



## Reynard (30 Sep 2022)

FishFright said:


> Those boots are tempting



They *are* from his BTCC days, btw


----------



## Reynard (30 Sep 2022)

figbat said:


> Sod that. Where do I go for the curry?



Over here!


----------



## Illaveago (1 Oct 2022)

Reynard said:


> Yep, definitely agree with you there. Now most cares either seem to be black, black and more black, or have driven through an explosion in a paint factory.
> 
> The mid-to-late 1980s seems to be the best era for really nice liveries.



I watched one BTCC race from Brands Hatch on a gloomy day . It looked so dreary and dismal , most of the car's looked similar and I eventually gave up .
As you say . Black car , black tyres and black wheels.


----------



## Illaveago (1 Oct 2022)

I was trying to think of good car liveries . Last year's McLaren F1 colour scheme looked really nice and now they have spoilt it !  Williams have a nice metallic blue colour .
In the past Martini and Gulf Racing cars had nice colour schemes .


----------



## Phaeton (1 Oct 2022)

Illaveago said:


> I watched one BTCC race from Brands Hatch on a gloomy day . It looked so dreary and dismal , most of the car's looked similar and I eventually gave up .
> As you say . Black car , black tyres and black wheels.


Brands is always gloomy, it's not one of my favourite circuits, especially if they are using the loop, the GP isn't too bad


----------



## Phaeton (1 Oct 2022)

Reynard said:


> And it's not just the poncy revival meetings like Godwood or the Silverstone Classic. There's loads of (reasonably) thriving classic series running saloons, FF1600, old F1 cars - something for everybody, really.



Although I do fancy going to the Revival, did the FOS a few years ago, I was looking for tickets for the 2023 revival the other day, but don't think they are out yet.


----------



## Cerdic (1 Oct 2022)

Reynard said:


> In trying to gain a new audience, they've lost the old audience.
> 
> Guess I follow F1 out of habit, but there's much better racing to be found elsewhere. I think the FIA could learn a lot from TOCA. Going into the final meeting of the year, three drivers all within a handful of points of each other and one more to pick up the pieces should things go pear shaped, and it's not been engineered in any way at all.



Watching F1 out of habit - that’s exactly why I do it these days.

I think it is much easier to get into Touring Cars if you go to the circuit and watch live. The whole atmosphere/experience thing makes it much more exciting. The TV can make stuff a bit sterile at times.

The liveries are a bit **** at the moment though. I did like the Shredded Wheat Fords a few years back, though! Now what have we got? Car Gods? Who on earth thinks that’s a good name for a company?!!…


----------



## 13 rider (1 Oct 2022)

Interesting qualifying. I thought Hamilton was on for pole that first run in Q3 WOW 2 seconds up


----------



## dave r (1 Oct 2022)

13 rider said:


> Interesting qualifying. I thought Hamilton was on for pole that first run in Q3 WOW 2 seconds up



A little water about always shakes thing up nicely, at the end it looked like Red Bull had been taking lessons from Ferrari.


----------



## Reynard (1 Oct 2022)

Illaveago said:


> I watched one BTCC race from Brands Hatch on a gloomy day . It looked so dreary and dismal , most of the car's looked similar and I eventually gave up .
> As you say . Black car , black tyres and black wheels.



Sounds like when a good chunk of the field were running Honda Civics... 

I love Brands regardless the weather.


----------



## Reynard (1 Oct 2022)

Illaveago said:


> I was trying to think of good car liveries . Last year's McLaren F1 colour scheme looked really nice and now they have spoilt it !  Williams have a nice metallic blue colour .
> In the past Martini and Gulf Racing cars had nice colour schemes .



Mind, it's not many teams that now have a single title sponsor - the livery seems to have to accommodate all of them, which then results in the "explosion in a paint factory" look. Old F1 liveries - the Skoal Bandit RAMs, JPS Lotus, Leyton House March, Moneytron Onyx... I liked all of those. Oh yes, and the Benetton Ford from 1989.



Cerdic said:


> The liveries are a bit **** at the moment though. I did like the Shredded Wheat Fords a few years back, though! Now what have we got? Car Gods? Who on earth thinks that’s a good name for a company?!!…



The Napa Racing Fords are eyecatching enough, and I've always liked the Halfords orange & black. Shame Ting lost the Ginsters sponsorship, as that was a nice livery too.


----------



## Reynard (1 Oct 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Although I do fancy going to the Revival, did the FOS a few years ago, I was looking for tickets for the 2023 revival the other day, but don't think they are out yet.



I did the FoS in 2003. I do want to go back again as I really enjoyed it.


----------



## Illaveago (2 Oct 2022)

For the first time in ages I got a bit excited during qualifying for the GP.

It was also nice to see Christian Horner not his usual chirpy self .


----------



## classic33 (2 Oct 2022)

It'll be a wet start. The heavens have opened over there.


----------



## Phaeton (2 Oct 2022)

Let's hope they send then out soon


----------



## figbat (2 Oct 2022)

Would be a shame to have it start behind the safety car.


----------



## Cerdic (2 Oct 2022)

Reynard said:


> Mind, it's not many teams that now have a single title sponsor - the livery seems to have to accommodate all of them, which then results in the "explosion in a paint factory" look. Old F1 liveries - the Skoal Bandit RAMs, JPS Lotus, Leyton House March, Moneytron Onyx... I liked all of those. Oh yes, and the Benetton Ford from 1989.
> 
> 
> 
> The Napa Racing Fords are eyecatching enough, and I've always liked the Halfords orange & black. Shame Ting lost the Ginsters sponsorship, as that was a nice livery too.



Yes, I like the Napa livery. My son is a massive NASCAR fan and was very excited when the Napa deal was announced!

My main complaint about the Ginsters sponsorship was the promo/hospitality tent at the circuit. But could you actually get a pasty…


----------



## Phaeton (2 Oct 2022)

Not sure I understand the subtle fine line between Virtual Safety car & Safety lies, to me all incidences today required a Safety car.


----------



## classic33 (2 Oct 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Not sure I understand the subtle fine line between Virtual Safety car & Safety lies, to me all incidences today required a Safety car.


Some of the teams/drivers are against the use of the Safety Car. They feel a VSC can be used for most incidents, where a car isn't on the track. And its fairer, in so much as it doesn't bunch the cars up on track.


----------



## Phaeton (2 Oct 2022)

classic33 said:


> Some of the teams/drivers are against the use of the Safety Car. They feel a VSC can be used for most incidents, where a car isn't on the track. And its fairer, in so much as it doesn't bunch the cars up on track.



Yeah but, I can understand if there was just a piece of bodywork on the track & they needed to slow the race so that some brave soul can run out & get it, but today cars & marshals were on the track recovering cars, on 2 occasion covered by VSC & the other 2 by SC, to me they should all have been SC


----------



## Illaveago (3 Oct 2022)

I was just reading an article on Judge 13. It seems unbiased as the person seems to be in love with Red Bull and Christian Horner . 

The article is about the row brewing over the alleged breaches in budgets. I don't know if I read it correctly but he was implying that Toto Wolf was spreading the rumour that 2 teams had over spent their budget and that he had someone within the FIA who had leaked the information. The article basically says that it is sour grapes on behalf of Mercedes losing last year's driver's championship . The FIA aren't commenting apart from saying that they will release details soon . In a paragraph further down the article it says that a Dutch broadcaster claims that Red Bull and Aston Martin are to be fined over 7 million dollars each . If that is true then they must have discovered something amiss!


----------



## FishFright (3 Oct 2022)

Illaveago said:


> I was just reading an article on Judge 13. It seems unbiased as the person seems to be in love with Red Bull and Christian Horner .
> 
> The article is about the row brewing over the alleged breaches in budgets. I don't know if I read it correctly but he was implying that Toto Wolf was spreading the rumour that 2 teams had over spent their budget and that he had someone within the FIA who had leaked the information. The article basically says that it is sour grapes on behalf of Mercedes losing last year's driver's championship . The FIA aren't commenting apart from saying that they will release details soon . In a paragraph further down the article it says that a Dutch broadcaster claims that Red Bull and Aston Martin are to be fined over 7 million dollars each . If that is true then they must have discovered something amiss!



The FIA did comment and was scathing about those spreading "totally unsubstantiated rumours" . I think there may be repercussions , probably behind the scenes though.


----------



## Jody (3 Oct 2022)

Illaveago said:


> The article basically says that it is sour grapes on behalf of Mercedes losing last year's driver's championship .



TBF if overspend gives you an advantage and last years race came down to the last lap of the last race, you'd be pretty p*ssed too. Maybe those extra 10ths added up over the course of a season? 10 million dollars could give you a sizable advantage (or a lot of engineers for the year after )


----------



## CharlesF (3 Oct 2022)

As someone who gave up on F1 in the 80's; I seldom watch the highlights (although my wife does).

Yesterday, I had nothing do and did watch the Singapore GP highlights; and I came away with two thoughts:

How can a race be so reliant on the tyres used. To my way of thinking they should do their job with no influence on the outcome - imagine if the TdF was dictated by tyres!!

Secondly why doesn't the FIA set down minimum standards for the racetrack tar over the entire course; it would make sense if each track had the same, consistent finish. The Premier League manages this with the stadium turf.

Both these would help the races being about drivers and teams skills.

Feel free to tell me I'm talking rubbish, as I'm sure you will.


----------



## figbat (3 Oct 2022)

Circuits are scattered all over the world and have to put up with very different conditions; climate, usage etc. Some are street circuits and others are bespoke race tracks. Some are used extensively year-round, others hardly at all outside of the F1 Grand Prix. The surface has to accommodate all uses, so motorcycles, classic vehicles, F1, whatever. There’s no one-size-fits-all surface. Besides, it’s part of what makes for the diversity and distinct character of each circuit.


----------



## FishFright (3 Oct 2022)

CharlesF said:


> As someone who gave up on F1 in the 80's; I seldom watch the highlights (although my wife does).
> 
> Yesterday, I had nothing do and did watch the Singapore GP highlights; and I came away with two thoughts:
> 
> ...



Tyres have always been like that , either a tyre war or which teams could manage them the best. 

There are many pages of rules about which surfaces are needed for an F1 circuit , also because of the wildly different climatic conditions no single surface material could be made to work everywhere.

Modern F1 cars with their huge downforce throwing gallons of water into the air mean that it's pretty much impossible for them to race in properly wet conditions.


----------



## Jody (3 Oct 2022)

CharlesF said:


> How can a race be so reliant on the tyres used. To my way of thinking they should do their job with no influence on the outcome - imagine if the TdF was dictated by tyres!!



Yesterdays race was a bit of an oddity as night time plus 88% humidity meant the track didn't dry. A part dry track would rip a new set of inters in no time which is why the teams pushed on very worn (almost slick ) inters, as they had an advantage.


----------



## classic33 (3 Oct 2022)

Get rid of the blue flags, make them have to overtake to get stay ahead.


----------



## Alex321 (3 Oct 2022)

classic33 said:


> Get rid of the blue flags, make them have to overtake to get stay ahead.



Blue flags are only used when it is lapped cars that are being overtaken. It would be unfair if they were to hold up the first car or two because they weren't expecting them to be coming past.


----------



## classic33 (3 Oct 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Blue flags are only used when it is lapped cars that are being overtaken. It would be unfair if they were to hold up the first car or two because they weren't expecting them to be coming past.


Not always the case though. Used to warn the driver, with no diving out of the way to let the other driver/car past required.


----------



## Alex321 (3 Oct 2022)

classic33 said:


> Not always the case though. Used to warn the driver, with no diving out of the way to let the other driver/car past required.



It is always the case that it is cars being lapped. And they MUST give way within a certain time - I think it is 3 corners - from first being shown the blue flag. Obviously sometimes the lapping car can just pass them easily with DRS on the straight, but in many cases, they are not at a suitable place for that.

Getting rid of blue flags could mean that lapped cars could have an undue influence on the race result.


----------



## classic33 (3 Oct 2022)

Alex321 said:


> It is always the case that it is cars being lapped. And they MUST give way within a certain time - I think it is 3 corners - from first being shown the blue flag. Obviously sometimes the lapping car can just pass them easily with DRS on the straight, but in many cases, they are not at a suitable place for that.
> 
> Getting rid of blue flags could mean that lapped cars could have an undue influence on the race result.


Not the case. There's a blue flag on the pit lane exit that's there for warning purposes only.

The three waved blue flags is a newer rule. Previously it was only a warning of faster car(s) approaching. The driver being shown the flag could let him past or make the following driver have to pass.

Too often it spoils a midfield race these days.


----------



## Phaeton (3 Oct 2022)

Alex321 said:


> It is always the case that it is cars being lapped. And they MUST give way within a certain time - I think it is 3 corners - from first being shown the blue flag. Obviously sometimes the lapping car can just pass them easily with DRS on the straight, but in many cases, they are not at a suitable place for that.


3 flags at 3 marshals posts although it's also on their dashboard


Alex321 said:


> Getting rid of blue flags could mean that lapped cars could have an undue influence on the race result.


Precisely, that's the whole point in getting rid of them, maybe they'd have to rethink from of the circuits & hopefully kill Monaco off.


----------



## Cerdic (3 Oct 2022)

The current blue flag rule, which forces lapped cars to let the leaders past, was introduced in the 1990s. 

Before then a blue flag was just a ‘warning’ that a faster car was catching you. The lapped car had no obligation to let the leaders through. The idea was that it was part of a top racing driver’s skill-set to be able to overtake slower cars…


----------



## FishFright (3 Oct 2022)

Alex321 said:


> It is always the case that it is cars being lapped. And they MUST give way within a certain time - I think it is 3 corners - from first being shown the blue flag. Obviously sometimes the lapping car can just pass them easily with DRS on the straight, but in many cases, they are not at a suitable place for that.
> 
> Getting rid of blue flags could mean that lapped cars could have an undue influence on the race result.



Like Alonso losing a chance at the championship because of Petrov being a double wide Alan B.

I'd rather they gave up the Blue Flag rule as it could help push the aero a little towards overtaking rather than lap time.


----------



## Phaeton (3 Oct 2022)

Cerdic said:


> The current blue flag rule, which forces lapped cars to let the leaders past, was introduced in the 1990s.
> 
> Before then a blue flag was just a ‘warning’ that a faster car was catching you. The lapped car had no obligation to let the leaders through. The idea was that it was part of a top racing driver’s skill-set to be able to overtake slower cars…



Wasn't it at Senna's request he didn't want the plebs slowing him down


----------



## gbb (6 Oct 2022)

Phaeton said:


> 3 flags at 3 marshals posts although it's also on their dashboard
> 
> Precisely, that's the whole point in getting rid of them, maybe they'd have to rethink from of the circuits & hopefully kill Monaco off.



Monaco is a strange one. It's my favourite circuit from former glory years of F1. Something has changed (and i admit it might be me, F1 just doesn't do it for me like it used to) but it simply doesn't have the thrill anymore. Maybe its the old camera angles / positioning, the noise, the cars / drivers....but even Monaco doesn't excite me nowadays.
I suspect the cars are simply SO planted nowadays it's lost something. Speed itself just isn't enough, not if it makes it look 'easy' (and i know it's not easy but you don't get that twitchiness, the seesawing of the wheel nowadays, something that makes you realise just how hard it really is.
In essence, its maybe become 'sanitised' for want of a better word.

And for glory days, the battle between Senna and Mansell stands as one of the all time greats for me in those final laps there.. It still excites me to watch that.


----------



## dave r (6 Oct 2022)

gbb said:


> Monaco is a strange one. It's my favourite circuit from former glory years of F1. Something has changed (and i admit it might be me, F1 just doesn't do it for me like it used to) but it simply doesn't have the thrill anymore. Maybe its the old camera angles / positioning, the noise, the cars / drivers....but even Monaco doesn't excite me nowadays.
> I suspect the cars are simply SO planted nowadays it's lost something. Speed itself just isn't enough, not if it makes it look 'easy' (and i know it's not easy but you don't get that twitchiness, the seesawing of the wheel nowadays, something that makes you realise just how hard it really is.
> In essence, its maybe become 'sanitised' for want of a better word.
> 
> And for glory days, the battle between Senna and Mansell stands as one of the all time greats for me in those final laps there.. It still excites me to watch that.



Yes, something has changed, both with F1 and Moto GP, its not the same, and I'm not sure what is is.


----------



## Phaeton (6 Oct 2022)

gbb said:


> And for glory days, the battle between Senna and Mansell stands as one of the all time greats for me in those final laps there.. It still excites me to watch that.


But there was 0% chance of him getting past even then


----------



## CharlesF (6 Oct 2022)

dave r said:


> Yes, something has changed, both with F1 and Moto GP, its not the same, and I'm not sure what is is.



Too commercial, too biased to TV.


----------



## dave r (6 Oct 2022)

CharlesF said:


> Too commercial, too biased to TV.



I don't think its that, its something to do the racing itself, I've found in the Moto GP its the support classes that are providing the better racing.


----------



## Salad Dodger (6 Oct 2022)

dave r said:


> Yes, something has changed, both with F1 and Moto GP, its not the same, and I'm not sure what is is.


F1 has got too "scientific". Too much telemetry being monitored in the pits and live linked back to base where computers can run all sorts of calculations and real time the results back to the pit crews.
I am an old fogey, but I would ban all communications between driver or car and pits. Race Control may retain a dashboard warning system, but that's all. Then race strategy would be down solely to the driver.

For me, Moto GP has gone down a rabbit hole of aerodynamics and active suspension systems. I would do away with all of those, and simplify and standardise traction control. One setting. On or off. Up to each rider to decide when and how to use it.

I understand that all these suggestions go against the notion of the formulae being the most advanced, cutting edge technology. But when you end up with cars that can't pass without artificial (DRS) assistance, and bikes that can't follow close behind another one without cooking the front tyre, then something has got to change.

But, then, I am a bit of a Luddite.....


----------



## Reynard (6 Oct 2022)

gbb said:


> And for glory days, the battle between Senna and Mansell stands as one of the all time greats for me in those final laps there.. It still excites me to watch that.



I was just praying for both of them to end up in the wall. 

The Malevolent Little Gargoyle and the 'Orrible Little Man.


----------



## Reynard (6 Oct 2022)

Salad Dodger said:


> F1 has got too "scientific". Too much telemetry being monitored in the pits and live linked back to base where computers can run all sorts of calculations and real time the results back to the pit crews.
> I am an old fogey, but I would ban all communications between driver or car and pits. Race Control may retain a dashboard warning system, but that's all. Then race strategy would be down solely to the driver.
> 
> For me, Moto GP has gone down a rabbit hole of aerodynamics and active suspension systems. I would do away with all of those, and simplify and standardise traction control. One setting. On or off. Up to each rider to decide when and how to use it.
> ...



This argument is as old as motor racing itself. You only need to trawl back through the archives to see the constant mutterings of "it's gotten too technical". And it's always been a team game, even if it's the driver who gets the glory. 

They did try and restrict the radio comms between the pits and the cars a few years ago, but that only lasted one season due to the number of toys being thrown out of various prams.


----------



## Cerdic (6 Oct 2022)

Reynard said:


> I was just praying for both of them to end up in the wall.
> 
> The Malevolent Little Gargoyle and the 'Orrible Little Man.



Which one is which…?


----------



## Reynard (6 Oct 2022)

Cerdic said:


> Which one is which…?



Well, seeings as Mansell's own team manager* at Williams still refers to him as an "orrible little man" 

* I have this on good authority, as he's a client of my bookseller friend.


----------



## Cerdic (6 Oct 2022)

Ha! That’s what I thought…


----------



## Chislenko (7 Oct 2022)

Just away from F1 I see Bennett's British Superbike competitor Chrissy Rouse died from a crash over the weekend.

Apologies it is a Mail link.

Chrissy Rouse, 26, dies after crash during Superbike Championship race https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...onship-race.html?ito=native_share_article-top


----------



## Phaeton (7 Oct 2022)

Not wanting to follow the Daily Mail link I googled & found Sky Sport to my disappointment also contained the news that Phil Read had also dies.


----------



## Jenkins (7 Oct 2022)

Busy weekend ahead for the anoraks among us - Aussie V8 Supercars for the Bathurst 1000 (on BT Sports), Japanese GP at Suzuka (on Sky Sports F1) and the BTCC finale at Brands Hatch (Sunday on ITV4 and Saturday's qualifying - and some suport races - online at itv.com/btcc)


----------



## Illaveago (8 Oct 2022)

I was reading elsewhere that Ferrari believe that Red Bull won't get penalised for their budget overspend ! If this happens then it would be a complete farce ! 
Might as well paint all the car's in Red Bull colours so that they can be assured of a win !


----------



## Phaeton (8 Oct 2022)

Illaveago said:


> I was reading elsewhere that Ferrari believe that Red Bull won't get penalised for their budget overspend ! If this happens then it would be a complete farce !
> Might as well paint all the car's in Red Bull colours so that they can be assured of a win !



They have to prove it first I presume it's going to be a loophole that RB have found, one of those it's not actually written down but in the spirit type of things, which RB's defence will be it's not written down so it doesn't count.

I'm still not 100% convinced they're not manipulating that floor in some way, bit like the Toyota turbo, you can measure all ways backwards & it fits in to the rules, but only when being used under race conditions does it occur when it can't be measured. Although the F1 paddock is such a small group like WRC is/was word will get out eventually if it is.


----------



## dave r (8 Oct 2022)

Phaeton said:


> They have to prove it first I presume it's going to be a loophole that RB have found, one of those it's not actually written down but in the spirit type of things, which RB's defence will be it's not written down so it doesn't count.
> 
> I'm still not 100% convinced they're not manipulating that floor in some way, bit like the Toyota turbo, you can measure all ways backwards & it fits in to the rules, but only when being used under race conditions does it occur when it can't be measured. Although the F1 paddock is such a small group like WRC is/was word will get out eventually if it is.



The rumour is that Red Bull have found a way of lowering the rear suspension during a race to enhance the ground effect.


----------



## Illaveago (8 Oct 2022)

Phaeton said:


> They have to prove it first I presume it's going to be a loophole that RB have found, one of those it's not actually written down but in the spirit type of things, which RB's defence will be it's not written down so it doesn't count.
> 
> I'm still not 100% convinced they're not manipulating that floor in some way, bit like the Toyota turbo, you can measure all ways backwards & it fits in to the rules, but only when being used under race conditions does it occur when it can't be measured. Although the F1 paddock is such a small group like WRC is/was word will get out eventually if it is.



They do seem to have some trick which no one has figured out yet .


----------



## classic33 (8 Oct 2022)

Illaveago said:


> They do seem to have some trick which no one has figured out yet .


Why over two tenths difference between Russell and Hamilton?
Hamilton being the slower.


----------



## Phaeton (8 Oct 2022)

classic33 said:


> Why over two tenths difference between Russell and Hamilton?
> Hamilton being the slower.



Gone for a race setup rather than pole, the RB's look like they may eat their red wall tyres, seeing how slow they went on their out lap. Wouldn't be surprised to see Mercedes start on yellow, hoping everybody else goes red & that Ferrari take the fight to RB, so they can then stay out longer & gain position.


----------



## classic33 (8 Oct 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Gone for a race setup rather than pole, the RB's look like they may eat their red wall tyres, seeing how slow they went on their out lap. Wouldn't be surprised to see Mercedes start on yellow, hoping everybody else goes red & that Ferrari take the fight to RB, so they can then stay out longer & gain position.


That time was in free practice two yesterday.

Forgot the time difference.


----------



## Reynard (8 Oct 2022)

Gasly's just signed for Alpine, and De Vries has picked up the vacant seat at AT alongside Tsunoda.

Gasly and Ocon don't get on terribly well, so fully expecting another Mansell v Piquet handbags at dawn kind of thing. Although unlike the first all-french pairing in an F1 team since 1994, Piquet was - and still is - the master of the nasty insult.


----------



## Beebo (9 Oct 2022)

Another FIA farce in Japan


----------



## Phaeton (9 Oct 2022)

Beebo said:


> Another FIA farce in Japan



Which bit?


----------



## Illaveago (9 Oct 2022)

Beebo said:


> Another FIA farce in Japan



Sounds like a right fiasco! I just saw a clip and was surprised that more cars didn't end up crashing .


----------



## Bollo (9 Oct 2022)

Spoiler: Result spoiler



It looks like Verstappen is world champion after all. Or not. Oh yes. I’m sure the FIA have it all in hand.


----------



## Phaeton (9 Oct 2022)

Not sure they did much wrong, although a few questions to be asked, should they be able to force teams to use the extreme the at the start & then force them to do at least 2 laps before allowing them to change, could they have started on extreme behind the SC. Do they need to address the speed of cars catching the SC up


----------



## Phaeton (9 Oct 2022)

Congratulations to Max Verstappen he might not come over as the nicest person on the grid, but combined with RB & Adrian Newey's car they are certainly the class act this year.

Congratulations to Tom Ingram a worthy winner to the BTCC championship, great clean racing today.


----------



## Reynard (9 Oct 2022)

Right now, the FIA couldn't organize an orgy in a brothel... What a bunch of incompetent nincompoops - they can't even remember their own rules.

The BTCC meeting on the other hand, was a belter. I didn't mind which of Ting, Ash or Jake won, because they all deserved to - for different reasons. But SO pleased for Ting, it's been a long time coming.


----------



## Cerdic (9 Oct 2022)

I saw last two Touring Car races, both were cracking! Very pleased that Ting has finally won the Championship.

I‘m just annoyed that for the first time in years I wasn’t able to be at Brands for the last round!


----------



## Illaveago (9 Oct 2022)

I think it is time that F1 binned the FIA !


----------



## Reynard (9 Oct 2022)

Illaveago said:


> I think it is time that F1 binned the FIA !



They tried to - back in the 1980s...


----------



## Illaveago (9 Oct 2022)

Reynard said:


> They tried to - back in the 1980s...



But then Ferrari were on their side . I think even Ferrari are fed up with them now .


----------



## Reynard (10 Oct 2022)

Illaveago said:


> But then Ferrari were on their side . I think even Ferrari are fed up with them now .



And we don't have Elio de Angelis playing the piano either... Either way, I think *everyone* is fed up with them. Other than Red Bull. But that might change in the morning IF they release how much the teams have gone over budget...


----------



## Illaveago (10 Oct 2022)

Reynard said:


> And we don't have Elio de Angelis playing the piano either... Either way, I think *everyone* is fed up with them. Other than Red Bull. But that might change in the morning IF they release how much the teams have gone over budget...



Ferrari have said that they think that they may have overspent .
If the FIA just try to get away with a token fine or penalty for overspending it will create more trouble and I'll feeling among teams that have stuck to the budget .


----------



## Phaeton (10 Oct 2022)

The FIA is Ferrari, hence why all the issues, Jon Todt, Stefano Domenicali


----------



## Beebo (10 Oct 2022)

Confirmation that Red Bull broke spending rules last year.
Get your popcorn out.


----------



## icowden (10 Oct 2022)

Beebo said:


> Confirmation that Red Bull broke spending rules last year.
> Get your popcorn out.



Hmmm:-



> For a minor breach, which is less than 5% overspend, penalties can include a public reprimand, a deduction of constructors' or drivers' championship points, exclusion from events, limitations on aero testing or a fine.



Deduct 10 Drivers championship points, and 20 constructors for the 2021 season maybe.... !!


----------



## figbat (10 Oct 2022)

Beebo said:


> Confirmation that Red Bull broke spending rules last year.
> Get your popcorn out.



A slap on the wrist and don't do it again (or don't get caught).

I would really like to see them weigh in heavily. Not deducting points and reversing the championship decider - that would just be too inflammatory - but an additional cost cap for them and reduced aero testing should clip their wings (so to speak).


----------



## Reynard (10 Oct 2022)

figbat said:


> I would really like to see them weigh in heavily. Not deducting points and reversing the championship decider - that would just be too inflammatory - but an additional cost cap for them and reduced aero testing should clip their wings (so to speak).



Quite frankly, deducting points from last year (driver and constructor) would only be fair. There is precedent there, albeit not in F1 - the 1989 British F3 title went through the courts after various appeals and counter-appeals, and in the end, didn't get decided till February of 1990.


----------



## icowden (10 Oct 2022)

figbat said:


> I would really like to see them weigh in heavily. Not deducting points and reversing the championship decider - that would just be too inflammatory


It might be inflammatory but I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone outside of the Red Bull garage that would think it was unfair.


----------



## figbat (10 Oct 2022)

icowden said:


> It might be inflammatory but I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone outside of the Red Bull garage that would think it was unfair.



Oh I’d love to grab some popcorn and watch that one play out, but is that really what Lewis et al would want? A record 8th championship decided nearly a year later and no doubt after a bitter legal battle? How does that help the sport? The ripples from the Masi debacle are subsiding and people have largely swallowed it and moved on. It‘s not right, but is it better to drag the whole thing up again?


----------



## Reynard (10 Oct 2022)

figbat said:


> Oh I’d love to grab some popcorn and watch that one play out, but is that really what Lewis et al would want? A record 8th championship decided nearly a year later and no doubt after a bitter legal battle? How does that help the sport? The ripples from the Masi debacle are subsiding and people have largely swallowed it and moved on. It‘s not right, but is it better to drag the whole thing up again?



I'd liken the budget cheating to doping in athletics and cycling. Because it IS cheating at the end of the day, and results HAVE been altered in retrospect (World Championships, Olympics, Grand Tours), so there is precedent.

And I think people would much rather see the right result and justice being done, even if two wrongs do not really make a right.


----------



## FishFright (10 Oct 2022)

icowden said:


> It might be inflammatory but I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone outside of the Red Bull garage that would think it was unfair.



Outside of the UK its not the same .


----------



## Illaveago (10 Oct 2022)

Reynard said:


> I'd liken the budget cheating to doping in athletics and cycling. Because it IS cheating at the end of the day, and results HAVE been altered in retrospect (World Championships, Olympics, Grand Tours), so there is precedent.
> 
> And I think people would much rather see the right result and justice being done, even if two wrongs do not really make a right.



It is as you say cheating ! They have gained an unfair advantage ! As Lewis said the overspend could amount to several tenths of a second per lap . 
If the FIA just impose a token fine how will the rest of the teams respond ? Ignore future spending limits ?


----------



## classic33 (10 Oct 2022)

Mercedes themselves are rumoured to be in breach of the cost cap this year, in the lead up to the Japanese Grand Prix. Which Wolff had no intention of attending, and didn't. And he's now looking at taking it through the courts. Both Red Bull and Aston Martin.

I see a "Mercedes Gate" on the horizon. Wolff appears to know certain figures a little too well.


----------



## icowden (10 Oct 2022)

classic33 said:


> Mercedes themselves are rumoured to be in breach of the cost cap this year, in the lead up to the Japanese Grand Prix


Ok, I think we need a deep dive here. Rumoured where? I can't find a single online article, which seems strange. Secondly are you suggesting that they have already spent their 2022 budget with 4 races still to go? The cap is a budget for the year, not per race.


----------



## Reynard (10 Oct 2022)

Pfegh, the motor racing paddocks are a hotbed for rumours. Until proven, it's just that, a lot of hot air, often generated by those who have an interest in deflecting some of the heat from themselves.


----------



## dave r (20 Oct 2022)

F1’s governing body has gone down the first avenue of responding to a ‘minor’ overspend by setting out the terms of an ‘Accepted Breach Agreement’ to Red Bull, an Accepted Breach Agreement - or ABA - is where the team in question accepts they have done wrong and agree to follow certain actions that will be taken by the FIA’s Cost Cap Administration. 


https://www.crash.net/f1/news/10148...bull-over-cost-cap-breach-will-they-accept-it


----------



## Illaveago (21 Oct 2022)

dave r said:


> F1’s governing body has gone down the first avenue of responding to a ‘minor’ overspend by setting out the terms of an ‘Accepted Breach Agreement’ to Red Bull, an Accepted Breach Agreement - or ABA - is where the team in question accepts they have done wrong and agree to follow certain actions that will be taken by the FIA’s Cost Cap Administration.
> 
> 
> https://www.crash.net/f1/news/10148...bull-over-cost-cap-breach-will-they-accept-it



From what I have seen it doesn't look like C H accepts that they overspent and keeps coming up with different excuses. McLaren threatening legal action if the FIA just hand out a fine . Looks like a fine mess !
Did the FIA slip the government a fiver to create a diversion ?


----------



## dave r (21 Oct 2022)

Illaveago said:


> From what I have seen it doesn't look like C H accepts that they overspent and keeps coming up with different excuses. McLaren threatening legal action if the FIA just hand out a fine . Looks like a fine mess !
> Did the FIA slip the government a fiver to create a diversion ?



I'm not expecting them to accept the ABA, and if they do the rest of the paddock ain't going to be happy.


----------



## Illaveago (21 Oct 2022)

dave r said:


> I'm not expecting them to accept the ABA, and if they do the rest of the paddock ain't going to be happy.



If they don't get punished how or why should other teams stick to the budget ?


----------



## dave r (21 Oct 2022)

Illaveago said:


> If they don't get punished how or why should other teams stick to the budget ?



We'll have to see if they go to the Cost Cap Adjudication Panel instead and what happens then.


----------



## Phaeton (21 Oct 2022)

It's all still too secretive for me very much like the Ferrari increase in engine power issue.


----------



## Tim Bennet. (21 Oct 2022)

As an antidote to all the F1 / FIA shenanigans, here's a photo of car number 144 who managed to finish 87th out of 150 in last weekend's Tour of Mull rally. 

Sorcha (leaning on the truck) was clouting the inside of the front wing with a club hammer a few moments earlier which I don't think was some underhand reprofiling for aerodynamic advantage, but simply undoing the result of some wayward driving on the route recce.


----------



## Jody (21 Oct 2022)

Apparently only a €1.8 million over spend.

CH cancelled the press conference so he can speak with the FIA

https://www.planetf1.com/news/red-bull-cost-cap-cancel-press-conference/


----------



## Phaeton (21 Oct 2022)

Jody said:


> Apparently only a €1.8 million over spend.
> 
> CH cancelled the press conference so he can speak with the FIA
> 
> https://www.planetf1.com/news/red-bull-cost-cap-cancel-press-conference/



Maybe as they found it down the back of the sofa they didn't think they had to declare it


----------



## Jody (21 Oct 2022)

Well fed staff


----------



## Reynard (21 Oct 2022)

Tim Bennet. said:


> As an antidote to all the F1 / FIA shenanigans, here's a photo of car number 144 who managed to finish 87th out of 150 in last weekend's Tour of Mull rally.
> 
> Sorcha (leaning on the truck) was clouting the inside of the front wing with a club hammer a few moments earlier which I don't think was some underhand reprofiling for aerodynamic advantage, but simply undoing the result of some wayward driving on the route recce.
> 
> View attachment 665333



I do love a good classic Mini


----------



## dave r (21 Oct 2022)

More details have been revealed, 1.2 million on catering! Gardening leave and tax.

https://www.crash.net/f1/news/1014993/1/revealed-four-reasons-red-bull-s-cost-cap-overspend


----------



## FishFright (21 Oct 2022)

dave r said:


> More details have been revealed, 1.2 million on catering! Gardening leave and tax.
> 
> https://www.crash.net/f1/news/1014993/1/revealed-four-reasons-red-bull-s-cost-cap-overspend



How very secretive it all is eh ?


----------



## dave r (21 Oct 2022)

FishFright said:


> How very secretive it all is eh ?



A big fuss over not a lot if we believe what we're told, a slapped wrist might be coming up.


----------



## Illaveago (21 Oct 2022)

Sounds suspiciously like the FIA are trying to wriggle out of having to impose hefty penalties .


----------



## dave r (21 Oct 2022)

Illaveago said:


> Sounds suspiciously like the FIA are trying to wriggle out of having to impose hefty penalties .



I recon thats the plan.


----------



## FishFright (21 Oct 2022)

dave r said:


> A big fuss over not a lot if we believe what we're told, a slapped wrist might be coming up.



In F1 terms it's not a big amount but it's the first time it's happened and may not happen again for ages so people have to have hysterics while its current.

It's the new normal for F1 fans, look at all the moaning and demands for rule changes because it rained twice.


----------



## Beebo (22 Oct 2022)

dave r said:


> A big fuss over not a lot if we believe what we're told, a slapped wrist might be coming up.



But when you look at how tight last season was, an extra million here or there is the difference between winning and losing the championship. 

What if an athlete only had a little bit of drugs in them? A cheat is a cheat.


----------



## classic33 (22 Oct 2022)

And a liar is just as bad.
https://www.grandprix.com/news/hamilton-admits-lying-amid-jewellery-saga.html


----------



## classic33 (22 Oct 2022)

Dietrich Mateschitz has died.


----------



## Phaeton (23 Oct 2022)

Of embarrassment or shame?


----------



## classic33 (23 Oct 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Of embarrassment or shame?


Been ill for some time.

Red Bull weren't just involved in F1, they were involved in almost any motorsport going. And of course in downhill mountain bike racing, Red Bull Rampage.


----------



## FishFright (23 Oct 2022)

classic33 said:


> Been ill for some time.
> 
> Red Bull weren't just involved in F1, they were involved in almost any motorsport going. And of course in downhill mountain bike racing, Red Bull Rampage.



RB backed many sports and not just at the top level. Brilliant marketing .


----------



## Phaeton (23 Oct 2022)

classic33 said:


> Red Bull weren't just involved in F1, they were involved in almost any motorsport going. And of course in downhill mountain bike racing, Red Bull Rampage.


It's far wider than that, I was going to suggest anything with wheels, but it's even more than that, climbing, diving, air sport including planes, gliders, paraglide, hot air balloons, surprising although they may without my knowledge been involved in professional cycling?

It will be interesting to see if the sponsorship continues now, was it driven by him or the company?


----------



## 13 rider (23 Oct 2022)

Tom Pidcock has some link to Red Bull not quite sure of the sponsorship links but in his days at at Trinity racing he would often have a red bull drink during warm ups for cx races


----------



## Phaeton (23 Oct 2022)

13 rider said:


> Tom Pidcock has some link to Red Bull not quite sure of the sponsorship links but in his days at at Trinity racing he would often have a red bull drink during warm ups for cx races


I did wonder if the contents wouldn't pass the 'tests' at the higher professional level


----------



## icowden (23 Oct 2022)

classic33 said:


> And a liar is just as bad.
> https://www.grandprix.com/news/hamilton-admits-lying-amid-jewellery-saga.html



Yes, awful.



> The British driver protested by vowing to defy the jewellery clampdown, and argued that he had piercings in some areas that could not simply be removed.
> Hamilton admits he wasn't being honest.
> "I was just f***ing with it," he said. "I don't have any other piercings anywhere. But I love that there's this thinking 'shoot, has he got his balls pierced?'"



Hanging's too good.

Pause for a sec though... he has a nose piercing which he did remove and which then became infected necessitating the reinsertion of the stud. Doesn't that mean that he does have a piercing that could not be simply removed...?


----------



## Beebo (23 Oct 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I did wonder if the contents wouldn't pass the 'tests' at the higher professional level



There is a caffeine limit for athletes. If you had 3 cans an hour before a race you would probably be over the limit.


----------



## icowden (23 Oct 2022)

Well, anyone else enjoy that? I love it when we get a really great race!


----------



## Reynard (23 Oct 2022)

I don't think I stuck enough pins in the voodoo doll...


----------



## classic33 (23 Oct 2022)

Reynard said:


> I don't think I stuck enough pins in the voodoo doll...


You need something personal to the person for the doll to work.


----------



## Phaeton (24 Oct 2022)

So what do we think about the Russell Sainz tangle, what do we think about the Stroll Alonso tangle.

For my piece, 

I think Russell was unlucky, he was being optimistic by going into that space, but Sainz lacked spacial awareness & jinked left closing the space that Russell was entering, I would like to see the telemetry of Verstappen's car, I suspect it will show a little lift, he was trying to block pass Sainz.

The Stroll incident is very reminiscent of Verstappen when he first arrived in F1, they introduced a rule to stop him blocking passes like they do in F3, Stroll has been doing this quite a few times in the last few races, it smacks of a desperate driver knowing they are going to get beaten. He deserves a grid drop at the next race, just like Verstappen should have had on multiple occasions at the beginning of his career.


----------



## Illaveago (24 Oct 2022)

I see the FIA are messing about again !


----------



## dave r (24 Oct 2022)

The Russell Sainz tangle, racing incident, I didn't see the Stroll Alonso tangle, I got called away and didn't see it.


----------



## Illaveago (24 Oct 2022)

II 


Phaeton said:


> So what do we think about the Russell Sainz tangle, what do we think about the Stroll Alonso tangle.
> 
> For my piece,
> 
> ...


I agree about Stroll , he seems to do a lot of wandering about and gets away with it !


----------



## Phaeton (24 Oct 2022)

Illaveago said:


> I see the FIA are messing about again !



??


----------



## classic33 (24 Oct 2022)

Phaeton said:


> ??


Mercedes had a "new" front wing at Austin, that also deflected the airflow around the side of the car.


----------



## Illaveago (24 Oct 2022)

Phaeton said:


> ??



Alfonso demoted after the race for having a loose mirror which fell off .

I thought he did well to finish in the points after leaving the track vertically !


----------



## Phaeton (24 Oct 2022)

Illaveago said:


> Alfonso demoted after the race for having a loose mirror which fell off .
> 
> I thought he did well to finish in the points after leaving the track vertically !



Yes, my first reaction was WTF he did a great race, I'm still not sure how he made that many places up, but if you do look at it, that mirror was dangerous, especially when it parted company with the rest of the car at close to 200mph. Although it's a dangerous precedent to open up, they didn't penalise Perez for the wing endplate (also reported by Haas), so we possibly know the 2 extremes.


----------



## Jody (24 Oct 2022)

Troll junior vs ALO - Nice way to introduce yourself to a future colleague and a dangerous driving tactic that needs to be stamped out. 

RUS vs SAI was 50/50. Sainz should have known you can't leave that much space and expect someone not to use it. Likewise, you can't dive up the inside and not expect someone to collect you. Apart from being real life racers, they have both done enough online racing to know it was coming. 

Not a bad race overall. Shame HAM couldn't hold out but you only have to look how much he was sliding around after keeping VER behind him to know he was giving it everything and cooked the rears.


----------



## Reynard (24 Oct 2022)

First corner - racing incident. Could've been Druids at Brands Hatch. Nothing doing there, move along... Russell was hard done by.

Stroll v Alonso... That's precisely why you're not meant to deviate from the racing line after making ONE move. Stroll has a habit of doing this. I suspect he gets away with more than most thanks to Papa's deep wallet. That's another massive dent in Aston Martin's budget. Also, it demonstrates what I've been saying all along about ground effect cars.

Namely, that once the venturi is broken, it launches the car into the air. That crash could have been SO much worse, and it's very reminiscent of my early days following F1.

Alonso's mirror... Again, like the Russell decision, really unfair. The FIA and race control have only themselves to blame - they SHOULD, on the precedent they've apparently established, have put out the black & orange flag for him, but didn't. Not as bad as the Suzuka faux pas with the recovery vehicle, but sorry, this lot can't organize a piss up in a brewery...


----------



## FishFright (24 Oct 2022)

Russel deserved the 5 seconds but no more. Mostly his fault but not entirely/

Stroll does seem to have problems using his mirrors and will fall to bit's when Alonso arrives at AM. Daddy Stroll's reaction to this will be amusing.

Alonso's penalty seems odd and the FIA needs consistency* on the loose bodywork penalties as it's looking random at best. 
ETA I can't blame Haas protesting as they've been harshly treated on this .

*FIA needs consistency full stop but I do wonder if Liberty Media are part of the problem.


----------



## classic33 (28 Oct 2022)

classic33 said:


> Mercedes had a "new" front wing at Austin, that also deflected the airflow around the side of the car.


The extra parts have been removed from the new front wing for Mexico. 
To allow them to run the wing, without the air deflection around the wheels.


----------



## Illaveago (28 Oct 2022)

classic33 said:


> The extra parts have been removed from the new front wing for Mexico.
> To allow them to run the wing, without the air deflection around the wheels.



I wonder if it is due to the thinner air at that altitude and so it doesn't benefit the car that much ?


----------



## classic33 (28 Oct 2022)

Illaveago said:


> I wonder if it is due to the thinner air at that altitude and so it doesn't benefit the car that much ?


It was planned to introduce it in Mexico, on both cars, not one car in Texas.

The parts removed, were directing the air around the car. Nothing to do with keeping the down force from the wing.


----------



## Phaeton (28 Oct 2022)

$7million & 10% wind tunnel time, fair for going over by $1.4million?


----------



## FishFright (28 Oct 2022)

Phaeton said:


> $7million & 10% wind tunnel time, fair for going over by $1.4million?



About right, the restriction of aero time will hit them pretty hard as they are the lowest anyway due to winning.

The FIA reports etc are on Autosport.


----------



## Beebo (28 Oct 2022)

FishFright said:


> About right, the restriction of aero time will hit them pretty hard as they are the lowest anyway due to winning.
> 
> The FIA reports etc are on Autosport.



The money doesn’t really matter to a team which is loaded. 
It would be better if their cap was reduced by $7 million. 
It was unrealistic to expect them to have deducted points as it would be too controversial. 
Saracens Rugby we’re relegated for breaching a salary cap, but kept their titles.


----------



## classic33 (28 Oct 2022)

Possible wet qualifying and race.
Some of the teams, as are Pirelli, are expecting rain over the weekend.


----------



## dave r (29 Oct 2022)

Illaveago said:


> I wonder if it is due to the thinner air at that altitude and so it doesn't benefit the car that much ?



I believe the FIA deemed those parts illegal.


----------



## Illaveago (29 Oct 2022)

Beebo said:


> The money doesn’t really matter to a team which is loaded.
> It would be better if their cap was reduced by $7 million.
> It was unrealistic to expect them to have deducted points as it would be too controversial.
> Saracens Rugby we’re relegated for breaching a salary cap, but kept their titles.



You could look at it the other way and say . If we overspend this season and win the championship think of all the extra sponsorship we would get !


----------



## derrick (31 Oct 2022)

FishFright said:


> About right, the restriction of aero time will hit them pretty hard as they are the lowest anyway due to winning.
> 
> The FIA reports etc are on Autosport.



They are so far in front it will make no difference,


----------



## Phaeton (31 Oct 2022)

derrick said:


> They are so far in front it will make no difference,


They were Mercedes have made a big step & I think only lost Mexico by making a wrong call on tyres, only issue is nobody but RB know how much MV had in reserve, did he flatter Mercedes by not really trying.

On a slightly different note where was Ricciardo's head yesterday, if he'd driven like that the whole season Zak would have been giving him a payrise not his P45, good to see he's not lost it, just doesn't seem to know where to find it.


----------



## icowden (31 Oct 2022)

Phaeton said:


> They were Mercedes have made a big step & I think only lost Mexico by making a wrong call on tyres, only issue is nobody but RB know how much MV had in reserve, did he flatter Mercedes by not really trying.


I don't know if they did make the wrong call. The RB has been *much* better than other cars at making tyres last. The Merc has tended to eat rubber a lot more quickly. Even if Hamilton had followed the RB strategy on tyres he didn't have enough to get in front of Max and stay there.
On the plus side the wind tunnel penalty might well adversely affect RB for next year's car.


----------



## icowden (31 Oct 2022)

Beebo said:


> The money doesn’t really matter to a team which is loaded.
> It would be better if their cap was reduced by $7 million.


Even Toto made the point that if the penalty was just financial Merc would happily overspend next year. Merc and Red Bull can afford the fines.


----------



## Phaeton (31 Oct 2022)

icowden said:


> I don't know if they did make the wrong call. The RB has been *much* better than other cars at making tyres last. The Merc has tended to eat rubber a lot more quickly. Even if Hamilton had followed the RB strategy on tyres he didn't have enough to get in front of Max and stay there.
> On the plus side the wind tunnel penalty might well adversely affect RB for next year's car.



Mercedes went Medium, Hard, where RB went Soft, Medium, had Mercedes gone Medium, Soft I think they would have been a lot closer & possibly forced RB to blink & do a 2nd stop to go back to newer Soft. But they didn't & they lost, which may have been the outcome anyway, but they just seemed to lose the enthusiasm on the pit wall even though the drivers were fired up


----------



## figbat (31 Oct 2022)

Phaeton said:


> On a slightly different note where was Ricciardo's head yesterday, if he'd driven like that the whole season Zak would have been giving him a payrise not his P45, good to see he's not lost it, just doesn't seem to know where to find it.


Yeah, but he (1) had very little to lose (2) was on fresh soft tyres and (3) punted Tsunoda off.

I enjoyed watching him making progress but it'd be better if he'd not done it at another driver's detriment. Yuki ought to have seen him but then Danny ought not to have stuck his nose into a closing gap. He took the penalty and gave us a show though.


----------



## Phaeton (31 Oct 2022)

figbat said:


> Yeah, but he (1) had very little to lose (2) was on fresh soft tyres and (3) punted Tsunoda off.
> 
> I enjoyed watching him making progress but it'd be better if he'd not done it at another driver's detriment. Yuki ought to have seen him but then Danny ought not to have stuck his nose into a closing gap. He took the penalty and gave us a show though.


It was a bit too optimistic a move, but Tsunoda had made a few dubious late moved on at least 4 of the previous corners, so it was a robust attempt,


----------



## 13 rider (31 Oct 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Mercedes went Medium, Hard, where RB went Soft, Medium, had Mercedes gone Medium, Soft I think they would have been a lot closer & possibly forced RB to blink & do a 2nd stop to go back to newer Soft. But they didn't & they lost, which may have been the outcome anyway, but they just seemed to lose the enthusiasm on the pit wall even though the drivers were fired up


Mercedes best bet was soft at the start to try and jump Verstapen . Good bet would have been a split strategy with 1 car soft ,1 medium


----------



## dave r (31 Oct 2022)

13 rider said:


> Mercedes best bet was soft at the start to try and jump Verstapen . Good bet would have been a split strategy with 1 car soft ,1 medium



That was what I was thinking.


----------



## Illaveago (31 Oct 2022)

I think as well as a reduction in wind tunnel time Red Bull should be made to carry a hundred weight of sand in their car as a penalty .

If you think about it the overspend has allowed them a clean sweep of the championship .


----------



## Jenkins (31 Oct 2022)

No this isn't a computer generated clip or sped up footage, yes he did just floor it and aimed at the wall

View: https://twitter.com/NASCARonNBC/status/1586834658028703744?cxt=HHwWgMCi0dntyIUsAAAA


----------



## Reynard (31 Oct 2022)

Jenkins said:


> No this isn't a computer generated clip or sped up footage, yes he did just floor it and aimed at the wall
> 
> View: https://twitter.com/NASCARonNBC/status/1586834658028703744?cxt=HHwWgMCi0dntyIUsAAAA




Now that's what you call a Sticker Rub!


----------



## Jody (1 Nov 2022)

Jenkins said:


> No this isn't a computer generated clip or sped up footage, yes he did just floor it and aimed at the wall



A move straight out of the sim racing handbook.

Never thought I'd see someone do this in real life


----------



## Beebo (6 Nov 2022)

I had my annual day out at Brands Hatch. Truck racing. 
It poured down then the sun suddenly made an appearance.
Visibility must have been awful.


----------



## classic33 (11 Nov 2022)

Another sprint race weekend.


----------



## Reynard (11 Nov 2022)

... and the perfect example of what can happen in motor racing when you're in the right place at the right time...


----------



## Illaveago (12 Nov 2022)

classic33 said:


> Another sprint race weekend.



Bu99er!


----------



## Phaeton (12 Nov 2022)

Reynard said:


> ... and the perfect example of what can happen in motor racing when you're in the right place at the right time...


Just a shame that the championship is over, otherwise Verstappen would be wary about the overtake, now he'll just barge through at the first opportunity, although I do think he'll be first into the first corner, he'll just brake later than Magnusson no matter how late Magnusson brakes, Russell will be off the track on the outside.

Shame Ricciardo is back to his slump


----------



## Reynard (12 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Just a shame that the championship is over, otherwise Verstappen would be wary about the overtake, now he'll just barge through at the first opportunity, although I do think he'll be first into the first corner, he'll just brake later than Magnusson no matter how late Magnusson brakes, Russell will be off the track on the outside.



It's forecast to be wet, and at Interlagos, in the wet, anything can happen and invariably does... 2003, anyone?



Phaeton said:


> Shame Ricciardo is back to his slump



Actually, I think it's more a reflection of the car than of DR's ability. That McLaren is a right dog, and Lando somehow manages to drag it to where it's got no right to be.


----------



## Phaeton (12 Nov 2022)

Reynard said:


> It's forecast to be wet, and at Interlagos, in the wet, anything can happen and invariably does... 2003, anyone?


I wish my memory was as good as yours, was the t the Massa, Hamilton, Glock year?


----------



## dave r (12 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I wish my memory was as good as yours, was the t the Massa, Hamilton, Glock year?



It was I think.


----------



## Reynard (12 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I wish my memory was as good as yours, was the t the Massa, Hamilton, Glock year?



Nope - that was 2008...

2003 was the year of the massive pile-up on the start-finish straight during a torrential deluge that brought out the red flags, and when the winner of the race was only declared several months later after an utter confusion in who was where when the red flags were thrown.

The race was eventually awarded to Giancarlo Fisichella in the Jordan.


----------



## dave r (12 Nov 2022)

Reynard said:


> Nope - that was 2008...
> 
> 2003 was the year of the massive pile-up on the start-finish straight during a torrential deluge that brought out the red flags, and when the winner of the race was only declared several months later after an utter confusion in who was where when the red flags were thrown.
> 
> The race was eventually awarded to Giancarlo Fisichella in the Jordan.



I'd forgotten that one.


----------



## Phaeton (12 Nov 2022)

Reynard said:


> Nope - that was 2008...


Thought I couldn't have been right as it was too early for Hamilton, I don't remember the 2003 race, but I did take a hiatus from the sport for a while & if the race was at an awkward time I may have missed it.


----------



## classic33 (12 Nov 2022)

Reynard said:


> It's forecast to be wet, and at Interlagos, in the wet, anything can happen and invariably does... 2003, anyone?
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, I think it's more a reflection of the car than of DR's ability. That McLaren is a right dog, and Lando somehow manages to drag it to where it's got no right to be.


It's a dry start to the sprint race.


----------



## dave r (12 Nov 2022)

Reynard said:


> It's forecast to be wet, and at Interlagos, in the wet, anything can happen and invariably does... 2003, anyone?
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, I think it's more a reflection of the car than of DR's ability. That McLaren is a right dog, and Lando somehow manages to drag it to where it's got no right to be.



I've often wondered if its built round Lando and his driving style.


----------



## Phaeton (12 Nov 2022)

Spoiler



Well done George



Stroll needs a 10 race ban not just 10 seconds


----------



## classic33 (12 Nov 2022)

Not over yet.


----------



## figbat (12 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It’s like he’s still in a kart. He doesn’t seem to have grown up - it a trademark now.


----------



## Jenkins (12 Nov 2022)

Rather enjoyed that. Just goes to prove that on the right circuit sprint races can be interesting.

I'd still prefer to have them as a separate part of the race weekend rather than being used to form the grid for the main race.


----------



## dave r (12 Nov 2022)

Jenkins said:


> Rather enjoyed that. Just goes to prove that on the right circuit sprint races can be interesting.
> 
> I'd still prefer to have them as a separate part of the race weekend rather than being used to form the grid for the main race.



I haven't seen it yet, but it sounds entertaining.


----------



## Reynard (12 Nov 2022)

Yeah, that was rather enjoyable. Interlagos has always been a good circuit for overtaking.

Mind, most F1 circuits have been so badly eviscerated by that whassisname circuit designer chap that you'd think overtaking had gone out of fashion...


----------



## Reynard (12 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The trouble is, Papa's money talks...

I'd say he's a latter day De Cesaris or Arnoux, but I don't remember either of those being that bad. Yes, he's a half decent driver when he puts his mind to it, but really, he *is* a menace.

I'm all for driver safety, but part of me rues that a good deal of the risk has gone *fzzzt* because back in the day someone like Stroll would learn of the consequences of those actions and have to live with that on their conscience. It's almost like motor racing has become like computer gaming - crash and reset from the beginning...

Sorry guys, I'm just having a bit of a grump tonight...


----------



## Phaeton (12 Nov 2022)

Not sure it's just Daddy's money, I think he saw what Verstappen got away with & still does to a degree today although this year he has calmed down. So Stroll is trying the same but he doesn't have the finesse & sneak factor of Verstappen


----------



## Reynard (12 Nov 2022)

This is the problem though - that "golden boys" like Senna, Schuey Sr, Vettel and Verstappen have been allowed to get away with far too much because they are bigger than the sport as a whole. There is no consistency.

Prior to Senna's emergence, there seemed to be less of this fannying around, because the chances of getting killed was very real.


----------



## FishFright (12 Nov 2022)

Reynard said:


> The trouble is, Papa's money talks...
> 
> I'd say he's a latter day De Cesaris or Arnoux, but I don't remember either of those being that bad. Yes, he's a half decent driver when he puts his mind to it, but really, he *is* a menace.
> 
> ...



I don't miss the days of death and scary fires but more jeopardy would improve driving standards.


----------



## Illaveago (13 Nov 2022)

It was surprisingly better than I thought it would be !


----------



## Beebo (13 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Just watched his move on the YouTube highlights. 
Terrible move and on his own team mate too.


----------



## Illaveago (13 Nov 2022)

Beebo said:


> Just watched his move on the YouTube highlights.
> Terrible move and on his own team mate too.



Didn't he do that to Alonso in Texas or was that another driver ?


----------



## classic33 (13 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He's three penalty points added to his Super Licence as well. Taking him to eight in the last twelve months.


----------



## Phaeton (13 Nov 2022)

Illaveago said:


> Didn't he do that to Alonso in Texas or was that another driver ?


Yes & put Alonso airborne


classic33 said:


> He's three penalty points added to his Super Licence as well. Taking him to eight in the last twelve months.


Didn't know that, thought it was just he 10 seconds, that's good then, he has to be curbed, he's dangerous.


----------



## Jenkins (13 Nov 2022)

YES!


----------



## Phaeton (13 Nov 2022)

Spoiler



Not sure I agree with Verstappen getting a 5 second penalty, seems to be against the flow


----------



## Leedsbusdriver (13 Nov 2022)

Very selfish of Max not letting Checo through on the last lap. I suspect he will have lost a lot of respect within the team for that stunt.


----------



## Reynard (13 Nov 2022)

Leedsbusdriver said:


> Very selfish of Max not letting Checo through on the last lap. I suspect he will have lost a lot of respect within the team for that stunt.



Well, I've been saying for years that the sleemo peedunkel wants his bottom paddling like the tetchy toddler that he is...


----------



## Phaeton (13 Nov 2022)

Leedsbusdriver said:


> Very selfish of Max not letting Checo through on the last lap. I suspect he will have lost a lot of respect within the team for that stunt.





Reynard said:


> Well, I've been saying for years that the sleemo peedunkel wants his bottom paddling like the tetchy toddler that he is...


Had he used the excuse that he couldn't slow down enough for it to have happened I could have taken it, but to actually refuse to do it, lowers him in my estimation enough lower than I thought he could go. He is a fantastic driver, just does not come across as a nice person, the petulant teenager is strong in this one


----------



## Leedsbusdriver (13 Nov 2022)

Reynard said:


> Well, I've been saying for years that the sleemo peedunkel wants his bottom paddling like the tetchy toddler that he is...



He thinks he is bigger than the team. He has certainly gone down in my estimation today.


----------



## Reynard (13 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Had he used the excuse that he couldn't slow down enough for it to have happened I could have taken it, but to actually refuse to do it, lowers him in my estimation enough lower than I thought he could go. He is a fantastic driver, just does not come across as a nice person, the petulant teenager is strong in this one





Leedsbusdriver said:


> He thinks he is bigger than the team. He has certainly gone down in my estimation today.



If he sinks any lower he'll be positively subterranean.

Like Senna and Schuey Sr, doesn't care who he sh*ts on to get what he wants.


----------



## Reynard (13 Nov 2022)

P.S. Max's umm, father in law is Nelson Piquet, so he's got the perfect tutor for those nasty put-downs he seems to have acquired...


----------



## icowden (13 Nov 2022)

Leedsbusdriver said:


> Very selfish of Max not letting Checo through on the last lap. I suspect he will have lost a lot of respect within the team for that stunt.



I do hope it comes back to bite him on the arse. Let's hope that at some point Checo gets ordered to let Max past and tells him to do one.

On the other hand


Spoiler



What a race! Superb drive by Russell all weekend and didn't bow to pressure in those last 10 laps. Could be a mighty season next year if Mercedes are back in the game.


----------



## classic33 (13 Nov 2022)

Is it just me, or is Max looking thin in the face.


----------



## Illaveago (14 Nov 2022)

icowden said:


> I do hope it comes back to bite him on the arse. Let's hope that at some point Checo gets ordered to let Max past and tells him to do one.
> 
> On the other hand
> 
> ...



Yes. He is good at holding up people ! Perhaps in the next race there could be a nice payback !


----------



## Illaveago (14 Nov 2022)

It was nice to see that Bad Max finally got penalised for causing an accident .


----------



## Phaeton (14 Nov 2022)

Illaveago said:


> It was nice to see that Bad Max finally got penalised for causing an accident .


I'm not his greatest fan but I do feel he was a little hard done by in this instance, he was well along side, Hamilton knew he was there & could/should have given him more room, I was honestly expecting it to go the other way. 

Although there may have been an element of his arrogance that thought I'll arrive at the scene & they'll have to jump out of my way, a bit Sennaesque, but he came up against Hamilton who this season has so little to lose.


----------



## figbat (14 Nov 2022)

The stewards’ report says that he had failed to complete the overtake at T1 and had gone into T2 too fast. Whilst HAM could have left more room they felt it was predominantly VER at fault.

So, paraphrasing, I am launching into this corner like it or not, if you are in the way we crash. It’s like a Verstappen motto.

On the refusal to give the place back, there is some suggestion that this was payback for Monaco, where it is claimed that PER deliberately crashed at the end of qualifying to prevent VER improving his position. Even if any of this is true, firstly PER had given him the place to go after ALO on the understanding that he gets it back if this doesn’t happen. And regardless of what went before, VER has the driver’s championship and RBR have the team championship, so what exactly does he have to prove by petulantly ignoring team orders and stiffing his team mate? And doing it over public team radio too. A childish sense of entitlement and getting his own back? That’s the sort of behaviour that’s needed in F1. Real heroic, inspiring stuff.


----------



## Reynard (14 Nov 2022)

Yes, Max expects the field to move aside like the red sea did for Moses...

Red Bull themselves are culpable quite frankly, because they're responsible for creating this little Caligula. Depending on how this plays out, it has the potential to be highly embarrassing.


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (14 Nov 2022)

Like the Caligula comparison


----------



## Phaeton (14 Nov 2022)

Reynard said:


> Yes, Max expects the field to move aside like the red sea did for Moses...
> 
> Red Bull themselves are culpable quite frankly, because they're responsible for creating this little Caligula. Depending on how this plays out, it has the potential to be highly embarrassing.



Did not Hamilton do this to Rosberg or was it the other way around, seem to remember one of them being advised to move over & the response being that when he gets close enough I will, knowing full well they couldn't in the dirty air. Slightly different but it was to try to help the points position of the one behind.


----------



## Reynard (14 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Did not Hamilton do this to Rosberg or was it the other way around, seem to remember one of them being advised to move over & the response being that when he gets close enough I will, knowing full well they couldn't in the dirty air. Slightly different but it was to try to help the points position of the one behind.



I've got it in my mind that it was Bottas... 

I mean it's not an uncommon occurrence - Sainz didn't move over yesterday either. But Max seems to take this to a whole new level. Loves team orders as long as they benefit him.

Oh wait... Senna had a say at Lotus as to who his team mate was... Ergo Johnny Dumfries and Satoru Nakajima...


----------



## Reynard (14 Nov 2022)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> Like the Caligula comparison



Have you ever watched Babylon 5?

Max reminds me so much of Worthram Krimmer's portrayal of Emperor Cartagia...


----------



## Phaeton (14 Nov 2022)

Reynard said:


> I've got it in my mind that it was Bottas...


You maybe right, we already know your memory is fair superior to mine 


Reynard said:


> I mean it's not an uncommon occurrence - Sainz didn't move over yesterday either.


I think as that was for a podium it does have slightly different gravitas, I did feel that LeClerc was toy throwing a little with his calls yesterday


----------



## figbat (14 Nov 2022)

Sainz was a bit different. Firstly I don’t believe he was asked to give the place - in fact Leclerc was told that it was too risky, since he had Alonso breathing down his neck (whereas Perez had a 4s gap to Ocon). Secondly, it was for the podium - that’s a big ask to get someone to give that up. Finally, Leclerc hadn’t given up his place on a promise of getting it back.


----------



## Jody (14 Nov 2022)

What do RB do to sort out the situation? It's obvious Max and Jos rule with an iron fist and the team for some reason allows it.

Why did Max wait so long to exact revenge on Checo? I'm not a VER fan but you'd hold a grudge if your team mate did a Schui/Rosberg at Monaco. Seems odd to wait this long though. 

How much of a dressing down must he have got to say he will now do whatever it takes to help Checo at the last race?


----------



## Phaeton (14 Nov 2022)

Jody said:


> How much of a dressing down must he have got to say he will now do whatever it takes to help Checo at the last race?


But will he & what can they do to him if he doesn't?


----------



## dave r (14 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> But will he & what can they do to him if he doesn't?



Apparently its been discused behind closed doors, “It’s been discussed behind closed doors, and I think the drivers are all very clear, they know what the objective is, they’ve cleared the air with each other, they’ve shaken hands, and we focus on the next race in Abu Dhabi.”

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/horner-verstappen-will-help-perez-in-abu-dhabi-/10399913/


----------



## dave r (14 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I'm not his greatest fan but I do feel he was a little hard done by in this instance, he was well along side, Hamilton knew he was there & could/should have given him more room, I was honestly expecting it to go the other way.
> 
> Although there may have been an element of his arrogance that thought I'll arrive at the scene & they'll have to jump out of my way, a bit Sennaesque, but he came up against Hamilton who this season has so little to lose.



yes, I thought it was six of one half a dozen of the other, usually Hamilton will drive round a car that appears on his inside, with Max he doesn't, they should have penalised both of them.


----------



## Jody (14 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> But will he & what can they do to him if he doesn't?



Point made so I think he will.

However, if he doesn't, there is little they can do as it's obvious who is in charge.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (14 Nov 2022)

Jody said:


> Point made so I think he will.
> 
> However, if he doesn't, there is little they can do as it's obvious who is in charge.



Whoever is in charge at Red Bull seem to making a cracking job of it given the championship positions.


----------



## FishFright (14 Nov 2022)

Reynard said:


> Well, I've been saying for years that the sleemo peedunkel wants his bottom paddling like the tetchy toddler that he is...



But is that because of what you want and not what he needs ?


----------



## Reynard (14 Nov 2022)

FishFright said:


> But is that because of what you want and not what he needs ?



I think it's a bit of both... 

Would love to volunteer, but then I think I'd enjoy it too much...


----------



## Jody (14 Nov 2022)

dave r said:


> yes, I thought it was six of one half a dozen of the other, usually Hamilton will drive round a car that appears on his inside, with Max he doesn't, they should have penalised both of them.



Playing him at his own game.

HAM and the rest have to leave a leg trailing at some point to plant the seed of doubt. 



ClichéGuevara said:


> Whoever is in charge at Red Bull seem to making a cracking job of it given the championship positions.



Rule changes rather than management. Happens all the time with one getting a jump on the field. Same with the blown diffuser, double diffuser etc.


----------



## icowden (14 Nov 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> Whoever is in charge at Red Bull seem to making a cracking job of it given the championship positions.


Well yes - this year when they had a vastly superior car. They seem to be very good at getting to grips with new rule changes.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out for them next year.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (14 Nov 2022)

I thought anything not back Whiney Hamilton would get a reaction. 

He comes over as so false with his fake 'sincere' preaching, a lot of people just turn the set over when he starts.


----------



## Reynard (14 Nov 2022)

Don't forget the overspend... 

I, for one, am hoping that next year they'll be taken down a peg or three. I am not certain Max will have that same aura in a less-than-competitive car. In fact, I think it will be good for him to scratch around in the midfield for a bit. He might even learn something.


----------



## Jody (14 Nov 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> I thought anything not back Whiney Hamilton would get a reaction.



You were trolling? Never 

You're a smart cookie!


----------



## ClichéGuevara (14 Nov 2022)

Jody said:


> You were trolling? Never
> 
> You're a smart cookie!



Nope, I was expressing an opinion that I knew would draw the response it did. I suspect quite a few people don't bother contributing because they know the reaction it generates, and can't be bothered with it.


----------



## Jody (14 Nov 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> Nope, I was expressing an opinion that I knew would draw the response it did.



That's called trolling


----------



## FishFright (14 Nov 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> I thought anything not back Whiney Hamilton would get a reaction.
> 
> He comes over as so false with his fake 'sincere' preaching, a lot of people just turn the set over when he starts.



Lol


----------



## classic33 (14 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Did not Hamilton do this to Rosberg or was it the other way around, seem to remember one of them being advised to move over & the response being that when he gets close enough I will, knowing full well they couldn't in the dirty air. Slightly different but it was to try to help the points position of the one behind.


Which race?


----------



## ClichéGuevara (14 Nov 2022)

Jody said:


> That's called trolling



In your world perhaps, in others it's called posting an opinion, but thanks for confirming what I said about the nature of replies on this thread.

I'll leave you to your bubble.


----------



## Jody (14 Nov 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> In your world perhaps, in others it's called posting an opinion, but thanks for confirming what I said about the nature of replies on this thread.
> 
> I'll leave you to your bubble.



It's straight up trolling and you know it is! Seems to go with the territory for people who don't like Hamilton. Sad really.

See you later


----------



## Alex321 (14 Nov 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> In your world perhaps, in others it's called posting an opinion, but thanks for confirming what I said about the nature of replies on this thread.
> 
> I'll leave you to your bubble.



In anybody's world it is trolling, even if it is an opinion you sincerely hold.

Posting mainly to get a reaction is pretty well the definition of trolling, and you have more or less admitted that is what you were doing.


----------



## Jody (14 Nov 2022)

Alex321 said:


> and you have more or less admitted that is what you were doing.



Then gaslight the person you're trolling


----------



## ClichéGuevara (14 Nov 2022)

Jody said:


> It's straight up trolling and you know it is! Seems to go with the territory for people who don't like Hamilton. Sad really.
> 
> See you later





Alex321 said:


> In anybody's world it is trolling, even if it is an opinion you sincerely hold.
> 
> Posting mainly to get a reaction is pretty well the definition of trolling, and you have more or less admitted that is what you were doing.



As I said, in your world perhaps.

I wasn't posting 'for' a reaction. I said the reaction was very predictable, which has been quite nicely confirmed.

The defensiveness of certain positions, and aggressive responses to those that post others could also be seen as trolling, and is quite likely to be a factor in other people not seeing it as worth while commenting.

Now I really will leave you t o your cosy bubble.


----------



## Jody (14 Nov 2022)

wow


----------



## Phaeton (14 Nov 2022)

Jody said:


> Then gaslight the person you're trolling



That must mean something different now, it used to mean the same as working on Burton's corner


----------



## derrick (14 Nov 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> Whoever is in charge at Red Bull seem to making a cracking job of it given the championship positions.



So much easier when you cheat


----------



## Illaveago (14 Nov 2022)

Jody said:


> What do RB do to sort out the situation? It's obvious Max and Jos rule with an iron fist and the team for some reason allows it.
> 
> Why did Max wait so long to exact revenge on Checo? I'm not a VER fan but you'd hold a grudge if your team mate did a Schui/Rosberg at Monaco. Seems odd to wait this long though.
> 
> How much of a dressing down must he have got to say he will now do whatever it takes to help Checo at the last race?



They are afraid to do anything to Max as daddy could put them in hospital !


----------



## classic33 (14 Nov 2022)

Anyone else notice they got the restart wrong again. Only two cars allowed past the safety car.


----------



## Phaeton (14 Nov 2022)

Illaveago said:


> They are afraid to do anything to Max as daddy could put them in hospital !


But it's not even as brutal as that, they have spent the last 6-7 years building the whole team around him, they pinned everything on him becoming world champion. They could remove him from the car next weekend & replace him with the reserve driver Fittipaldi?? But then what happens in 2023 do you have a driver who doesn't want to drive for you, he presumably can't leave because of contracts, but if he just goes around what good does it do the team.


----------



## 13 rider (14 Nov 2022)

classic33 said:


> Anyone else notice they got the restart wrong again. Only two cars allowed past the safety car.


Only watched the nightlights . Sure a saw an car going slowing the inside on the restart and no comment were made


----------



## figbat (14 Nov 2022)

classic33 said:


> Anyone else notice they got the restart wrong again. Only two cars allowed past the safety car.



There were only 3 lapped cars. Tsunoda briefly unlapped himself in the pitlane so the system overlooked him. Explained here.


----------



## classic33 (14 Nov 2022)

figbat said:


> There were only 3 lapped cars. Tsunoda briefly unlapped himself in the pitlane so the system overlooked him. Explained here.


The timing system marked him as a lap down, but he'd already unlapped himself, leaving him a lap down on everyone else when the race restarted.


----------



## FishFright (14 Nov 2022)

derrick said:


> So much easier when you cheat



Name me a team that you know doesn't cheat , it'll be a laugh if nothing else.


----------



## Jody (14 Nov 2022)

FishFright said:


> Name me a team that you know doesn't cheat , it'll be a laugh if nothing else.



You're only cheating if you get caught


----------



## dave r (14 Nov 2022)

Jody said:


> You're only cheating if you get caught



Yes, don't break the eleventh commandment.


----------



## icowden (18 Nov 2022)

Looks like Max is sad that everyone thinks he is a bit of a bell-end...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/63664552

Apparently the media should have been nicer to him and didn't ask his side of the story...


----------



## Beebo (18 Nov 2022)

icowden said:


> Looks like Max is sad that everyone thinks he is a bit of a bell-end...
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/63664552
> 
> Apparently the media should have been nicer to him and didn't ask his side of the story...



Imagine the grief he’d get if he was black!


----------



## Phaeton (18 Nov 2022)

icowden said:


> Apparently the media should have been nicer to him and didn't ask his side of the story...


As I understand it he's refusing to give his side of the story, although I can't condone the threats his family apparently have had to ensure.


----------



## figbat (18 Nov 2022)

icowden said:


> Apparently the media should have been nicer to him and didn't ask his side of the story...



What, the side of the story that he is not telling anybody, even if they ask? Does his disgust at the treatment his family have received include the treatment his mother doled out to Perez? Does he really think that a petty vendetta about an alleged incident half a season ago, one that has had no impact on the outcome of his championship, is worth his public display of petulance and the subsequent unpleasantness. Does he think that it's OK for Checo to let him through but not the other way around?

At least previous underhand drivers were properly malevolent about it, rather than being no better than a playground prima donna whose dad is biggest. The recent picture of all the drivers having a night out together clearly shows his place in the paddock.


----------



## FishFright (18 Nov 2022)

figbat said:


> What, the side of the story that he is not telling anybody, even if they ask? Does his disgust at the treatment his family have received include the treatment his mother doled out to Perez? Does he really think that a petty vendetta about an alleged incident half a season ago, one that has had no impact on the outcome of his championship, is worth his public display of petulance and the subsequent unpleasantness. Does he think that it's OK for Checo to let him through but not the other way around?
> 
> At least previous underhand drivers were properly malevolent about it, rather than being no better than a playground prima donna whose dad is biggest. The recent picture of all the drivers having a night out together clearly shows his place in the paddock.
> 
> View attachment 668395



I'd love to post all the pix where Hamilton didn't bother to turn up but that wouldn't prove anything either.


----------



## figbat (18 Nov 2022)

FishFright said:


> I'd love to post all the pix where Hamilton didn't bother to turn up but that wouldn't prove anything either.



Sorry, I don't get it. Max is there.


----------



## FishFright (18 Nov 2022)

figbat said:


> Sorry, I don't get it. Max is there.


oops , you're correct he was there I didn't notice him on the back row with all the other people who know there place .


----------



## dave r (18 Nov 2022)

figbat said:


> What, the side of the story that he is not telling anybody, even if they ask? Does his disgust at the treatment his family have received include the treatment his mother doled out to Perez? Does he really think that a petty vendetta about an alleged incident half a season ago, one that has had no impact on the outcome of his championship, is worth his public display of petulance and the subsequent unpleasantness. Does he think that it's OK for Checo to let him through but not the other way around?
> 
> At least previous underhand drivers were properly malevolent about it, rather than being no better than a playground prima donna whose dad is biggest. The recent picture of all the drivers having a night out together clearly shows his place in the paddock.
> 
> View attachment 668395




The picture, anyone else looking at the picture and thinking it looks odd? But can't figure out why?


----------



## ClichéGuevara (18 Nov 2022)

dave r said:


> The picture, anyone else looking at the picture and thinking it looks odd? But can't figure out why?



Is it because Valteri Bottas is still in character after appearing as a world war RAF pilot?

Chocks away ginger.


----------



## dave r (18 Nov 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> Is it because Valteri Bottas is still in character after appearing as a world war RAF pilot?
> 
> Chocks away ginger.



Very good, no other side of the front row, whats is name in the purple, his face looks stuck on.


----------



## Phaeton (18 Nov 2022)

Pierre Gasly?


----------



## dave r (18 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Pierre Gasly?



Thats him.


----------



## dave r (18 Nov 2022)

I wonder if anyone will step forward and make the complaint.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/...s-monaco-crash-if-complaint-is-made/10401761/


----------



## Reynard (18 Nov 2022)

icowden said:


> Looks like Max is sad that everyone thinks he is a bit of a bell-end...
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/63664552
> 
> Apparently the media should have been nicer to him and didn't ask his side of the story...



Oh diddums... My heart bleeds for him... NOT.

As for the abuse, he's only got to look in the mirror. Sorry, but I've very little sympathy. Besides, what you send out comes back to thee, so ever mind the rule of three... (Part of the Wiccan credo, and very wise it is too.)


----------



## icowden (18 Nov 2022)

dave r said:


> I wonder if anyone will step forward and make the complaint.
> https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/...s-monaco-crash-if-complaint-is-made/10401761/


"Well, we have received a letter from a Mr M Vercrashen...

Dear FIA, Why oh why oh why..."


----------



## Illaveago (18 Nov 2022)

Is Max's favourite song "I am the One and Only !".


----------



## classic33 (19 Nov 2022)

Hamilton under investigation for overtaking under Red Flags.


----------



## classic33 (19 Nov 2022)

Ricciardo to return to Redbull, as a No.2 driver?


----------



## dave r (19 Nov 2022)

classic33 said:


> Ricciardo to return to Redbull, as a No.2 driver?



No, as number 3 reserve driver, if he signs the contract.


----------



## classic33 (19 Nov 2022)

dave r said:


> No, as number 3 reserve driver, if he signs the contract.


Verstappen wants a new teammate.


----------



## dave r (19 Nov 2022)

classic33 said:


> Verstappen wants a new teammate.



No, Red Bull want a reserve driver.

https://www.crash.net/f1/news/10175...won-t-replace-perez-fulltime-red-bull-f1-seat


----------



## classic33 (19 Nov 2022)

dave r said:


> No, Red Bull want a reserve driver.
> 
> https://www.crash.net/f1/news/10175...won-t-replace-perez-fulltime-red-bull-f1-seat


Battle of the links here!
https://formula1news.co.uk/daniel-ricciardo-set-for-return-as-max-verstappen-wants-new-team-mate/


----------



## dave r (20 Nov 2022)

classic33 said:


> Battle of the links here!
> https://formula1news.co.uk/daniel-ricciardo-set-for-return-as-max-verstappen-wants-new-team-mate/



Ralf Schumacher believes, "Ricardo will take the Perez seat" so its just speculation by Ralf, further down the article its says the same as Crash Net is reporting.


----------



## Phaeton (20 Nov 2022)

Likely to be Ralf just spreading rumours, Perez has a 2 year contract & although I would love to see Ricciardo back to the driver he was, RB are not going to take that kind of risk, I also don't think Ricciardo thinks he's a 2nd driver. He moved away from RB to make sure that didn't happen, he unfortunately went to McLaren & became one.


----------



## Scottish Scrutineer (22 Nov 2022)

Forget about the prima donnas in F1, proper grass roots motorsport for me at the weekend
Scottish Borders Hill Rally in Dumfries & Galloway


----------



## jowwy (22 Nov 2022)

Chinese grand prix cancelled...is it for human rights issues?? nope, covid...........but not heard anyone complain about F1 going there

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/63713326


----------



## Reynard (22 Nov 2022)

In some ways, F1 is more hypocritical than football. South Africa during Apartheid for one...

As they say, money talks and bullsh*t walks.


----------



## icowden (22 Nov 2022)

jowwy said:


> Chinese grand prix cancelled...is it for human rights issues?? nope, covid...........but not heard anyone complain about F1 going there


Yeah, no-one ever mentions it.
Oh hang on, some bloke called Lewis Hamilton keeps banging on about it:

https://www.independent.co.uk/f1/lewis-hamilton-f1-human-rights-abuses-b1723222.html
https://www.racefans.net/2021/11/18...hts-failings-in-countries-it-visits-hamilton/
and this guy speaks out a bit:
https://f1i.com/news/443940-vettel-f1-right-to-race-in-countries-tougher-on-human-rights.html
But it turns out that these guys are mostly in it for the money:-
http://m.f1reader.com/news/liberty-media-planning-new-regional-formula-1-hq-in-china-194796

But the problem is that China keeps on quarantining people for Covid without exceptions so no F1 in China this year.


----------



## classic33 (22 Nov 2022)

jowwy said:


> Chinese grand prix cancelled...is it for human rights issues?? nope, covid...........but not heard anyone complain about F1 going there
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/63713326


They have a zero policy with regards covid, no exclusions. Which didn't suit F1.


----------



## jowwy (22 Nov 2022)

icowden said:


> Yeah, no-one ever mentions it.
> Oh hang on, some bloke called Lewis Hamilton keeps banging on about it:
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/f1/lewis-hamilton-f1-human-rights-abuses-b1723222.html
> ...



does hamilton refuse to race there??? no he doesnt, he can bang on as a lone striker as much as he wants. unless he stands by his own convictions and refuses to race then i have zero sympathy...and neither will his bank balance.


----------



## classic33 (22 Nov 2022)

jowwy said:


> does hamilton refuse to race there??? no he doesnt, he can bang on as a lone striker as much as he wants. unless he stands by his own convictions and refuses to race then i have zero sympathy...and neither will his bank balance.


He'll not be racing there though.


----------



## jowwy (22 Nov 2022)

classic33 said:


> He'll not be racing there though.



But he has in the past, but dont let that spoil your post.


----------



## classic33 (22 Nov 2022)

jowwy said:


> But he has in the past, but dont let that spoil your post.


You're at odds with yerssen on this.
Best come back when you know on what grounds you're trying to make your point.


----------



## Phaeton (22 Nov 2022)

But what is the best way to do it? don't go & give the nationals no concept of outside help, or go & openly criticise the ruling Government so the nationals know they have outside support. However I do believe the darkside is thataway ========>


----------



## jowwy (22 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> But what is the best way to do it? don't go & give the nationals no concept of outside help, or go & openly criticise the ruling Government so the nationals know they have outside support. However I do believe the darkside is thataway ========>



Nothing political has been said…….human rights is not a political choice, but a humane one.


----------



## Reynard (22 Nov 2022)

jowwy said:


> Nothing political has been said…….human rights is not a political choice, but a humane one.



Unfortunately it IS political, always has been.

And it's not confined to motor racing. Just look at the brouhaha going on at the World Cup.


----------



## jowwy (22 Nov 2022)

Reynard said:


> Unfortunately it IS political, always has been.
> 
> And it's not confined to motor racing. Just look at the brouhaha going on at the World Cup.



Not based on religion and beliefs then, just political???


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (22 Nov 2022)

This thread...


----------



## dave r (22 Nov 2022)

To get back on topic, tyre test today and a chance for drivers to turn out for their new teams and the new boys to get some miles in.

https://www.crash.net/f1/news/1017855/1/first-look-five-drivers-debut-new-teams-abu-dhabi-f1-test


----------



## icowden (23 Nov 2022)

jowwy said:


> does hamilton refuse to race there??? no he doesnt, he can bang on as a lone striker as much as he wants. unless he stands by his own convictions and refuses to race then i have zero sympathy...and neither will his bank balance.



You probably won't get this, but sometimes excluding yourself from something is not the best way to drive change. It's a bit like quitting a huge trading organisation to go it alone and then getting upset because they change the rules.

I'm pretty certain that Lewis Hamilton couldn't give a fig about your sympathy. What he and Vettel are trying to do is push Liberty Media and the FIA to start questioning whether GPs should be held in countries with poor human rights records, and when they do race, make bold statements that embarrass or make things more awkward for the host country - for example rainbow helmets.


----------



## dave r (23 Nov 2022)

Redbull have confirmed that Riccardo has signed as their third driver.

https://www.crash.net/f1/news/1017853/1/red-bull-announce-daniel-ricciardo-s-return-f1-2023


----------



## Jody (23 Nov 2022)

dave r said:


> Redbull have confirmed that Riccardo has signed as their third driver.
> 
> https://www.crash.net/f1/news/1017853/1/red-bull-announce-daniel-ricciardo-s-return-f1-2023



Checo's replacement


----------



## Phaeton (23 Nov 2022)

Jody said:


> Checo's replacement


https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/motorsports-thread.253755/post-6857138


----------



## dave r (23 Nov 2022)

Jody said:


> Checo's replacement



They say not, but we'll wait and see.


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (23 Nov 2022)

dave r said:


> They say not, but we'll wait and see.



Maybe a Max replacement if the team get fed up covering for his actions and attitude???


----------



## Jody (23 Nov 2022)

Phaeton said:


> https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/motorsports-thread.253755/post-6857138



Still think they are lining him up.


----------



## FishFright (23 Nov 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> Maybe a Max replacement if the team get fed up covering for his actions and attitude???



Not until he stops winning .


----------



## Phaeton (23 Nov 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> Maybe a Max replacement if the team get fed up covering for his actions and attitude???



More chance of me taking a dump in Camilla's handbag


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (23 Nov 2022)

FishFright said:


> Not until he stops winning .



Nah - you have F1 all wrong
Not unless the advertisers and sponsors threaten to back out due to possible bad optics being associated with him

winning is just a way to keep the sponsors on board

[End Cynical mode]


----------



## dave r (29 Nov 2022)

Binotto has resigned as expected.

https://www.crash.net/f1/news/1017949/1/binotto-s-departure-ferrari-f1-team-confirmed


----------



## Illaveago (29 Nov 2022)

dave r said:


> Binotto has resigned as expected.
> 
> https://www.crash.net/f1/news/1017949/1/binotto-s-departure-ferrari-f1-team-confirmed



Oh! I quite liked him .


----------



## Phaeton (29 Nov 2022)

dave r said:


> Binotto has resigned as expected.
> 
> https://www.crash.net/f1/news/1017949/1/binotto-s-departure-ferrari-f1-team-confirmed





Illaveago said:


> Oh! I quite liked him .


Somebody had to fall on their sword, it has been abysmal this year asking the drivers which tyres they wanted & when they wanted to stop.


----------



## Reynard (29 Nov 2022)

It's a bit like when the board of a football club say "we've every confidence in our manager" and then a week later, *poof* the manager is gone. Though I'm not sure this is going to make the damndest bit of difference, because until Ferrari change their underlying culture, it won't matter who is the head honcho. It'll just be more of the same Italian headless chickenry...


----------



## Phaeton (29 Nov 2022)

Has Frédéric Vasseur not been seen around the Ferrari camp,


----------



## icowden (30 Nov 2022)

Reynard said:


> It's a bit like when the board of a football club say "we've every confidence in our manager"


This applies to politicians as well. Nothing worse than someone having complete confidence in you...


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (11 Dec 2022)




----------



## Reynard (11 Dec 2022)

Woody!!!


----------



## Phaeton (13 Dec 2022)

Vasseur is leaving Alpha to go to Ferrari the day after Jost Capito leaves Williams, I wonder where he is going?


----------



## dave r (13 Dec 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Vasseur is leaving Alpha to go to Ferrari the day after Jost Capito leaves Williams, I wonder where he is going?



The merry go round has started.


----------



## figbat (13 Dec 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Vasseur is leaving Alpha to go to Ferrari the day after Jost Capito leaves Williams, I wonder where he is going?



Rumours are that Capito will be at Audi F1 when it gets going.


----------



## Phaeton (13 Dec 2022)

figbat said:


> Rumours are that Capito will be at Audi F1 when it gets going.



Andreas Seidl has just got that job


----------



## Jody (13 Dec 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Andreas Seidl has just got that job





The off/silly season has kept us entertained this year.


----------



## Jody (13 Dec 2022)

Binotto to Williams?


----------



## figbat (13 Dec 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Andreas Seidl has just got that job



He's CEO but not (yet) team principle.


----------



## Phaeton (13 Dec 2022)

Jody said:


> Binotto to Williams?



Rob Smedley comes back, his departure I always thought was strange


----------



## Jody (13 Dec 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Rob Smedley comes back, his departure I always thought was strange



I'd like to see Smedley back in the paddock


----------



## classic33 (15 Dec 2022)

F1 movers.

Vasseur to join Ferrari in January
Frenchman appointed as replacement for Mattia Binotto
Seidl moves from McLaren to Sauber
Stella appointed McLaren team boss


----------



## derrick (16 Dec 2022)

https://racingnews365.com/former-f1-race-director-masi-finds-new-motorsport-role


----------



## Jody (16 Dec 2022)

It's a Kaaart race Michael. We're goikng Kaaart racing


----------



## Reynard (23 Dec 2022)

Just seen on an F1 group I'm a member of on facebook that Philippe Streiff has passed away.

Philippe was paralysed from the neck down after a pre-season testing accident in Rio in 1989 while driving for AGS.


----------

