# roadie trying mountainbiking



## nosherduke996 (27 Aug 2009)

O.K i have been road riding over six months now and for 54 years old i would consider myself pretty fit as i live in the surrey hills and do about 100 to 150 miles a week and use a cross trainer also.
I have just started mountainbiking and i am really struggling to keep up with my mates who have been doing this for over twenty years.I am as good as them on the uphill sections, but as soon as it gets tricky, like roots or a fast rocky descent i cant get anwhere near them.
Also there isn,t a week that goes past without me going over the bars.
How long before i get as good as them or am i going to kill myself trying ?


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## bonj2 (27 Aug 2009)

generally, keep your weight over the back of the bike when descending. putting your saddle down helps to move around while doing this. don't descend sitting down. Make sure your forks are at max travel/aren't locked out. Always look for the best line, and always look where you want to go, not at your drivetrain/at your mates/down into the valley/up at the sky.
Maybe your bike is a more upright geometry/less travel, i.e. more of an XC race type bike and theirs are slacker longer travel bikes?
also ask anything mroe specific on singletrackworld.com, there aren't many MTBers on here.


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## Waspie (27 Aug 2009)

I would imagine it might take a wee while to get up to speed with guys who have been mountain biking for 20 years, especially if you've just been road riding for six months.

It won't take long for you to improve though but you'll need to do it at your own pace, sounds like you're going too fast/trying stuff you're not ready for if you are over the bars every week. 

Remember to get your weight over the back of the bike on the steep descents. But not too far back that you lose control of the front. Also, it's amazing what sort of terrain a mountain bike will take you over if you let it. Helps if you relax to an extent, easier said than done sometimes. 

Can you get out on your own and practise without the pressure of keeping up with your mates?


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## RedBike (27 Aug 2009)

I'm always last down the hills too. I can tell you how to go down hills quickly but it's one of those things thats easier said than done. (Which is why I can't do it myself!). 

If you stand beside your bike and hold the front brake on then push the bike forward via the handlebars you'll notice the back wheel lifting. An over the bar moment. 

Now try holding the front brake on and pushing the bike forward via the pedals. There's nothing you can do that causes the back wheel to want to lift. 

The 'secret' to not going over the bars is where your weight acts on the bike. When going downhill you need to have the pedals level, *your heels dropped* and make sure your supporting yourself via the pedals not the handlebars. 

Then relax. Let the bike flow instead of fighting it. As I said, easier said than done.


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## lukesdad (28 Aug 2009)

I agree with whats been said allready another part of technique is to keep the bike "light" or "unloaded" this means learning to asorb the contours of the trail through your legs and arms rather than through the bike. You should be looking to guide the bike rather than steering it like a road bike adjustment of body weight is important in both descending and cornering you will corner quicker by making the back wheel light to do this shift your body weight foward and into the corner and apply the power.Ride through the corner, your exit speed should be faster than your entry speed.

And watch out for that front brake, braking balance is another important factor try using just two fingers on the brake levers.


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## marzjennings (28 Aug 2009)

You may need to drop your saddle height a bit. You'll sacrifice some pedaling efficiency for the sack of greater control over the bike. I see a lot of roadies keep their saddles at the same height on their mountain bikes as their road bikes and end up being too 'perched' above the bars. Measuring from pedal to saddle my mountain bike is 2" shorter than my road bike. Always for the most part on technical down hill sections, never sit always stand up and absorb the trail through your knees.


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## Cubist (28 Aug 2009)

A lot of good sense already, but another thing on technical stuff is to give the bike its head, in other words let the bike do the work. Relax and pick the lines, but don't spend all the time fighting it. You'll need to keep looking out for braking areas, in other words places on the track where you can safely scrub off speed if you need to, rather than spending the whole descent either feathering or hanging onto both brakes for dear life. Learn to trust your back wheel as it's skidding or locked, as drifting and sliding the back can help speed on steep corners.


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## mr Mag00 (28 Aug 2009)

all excellent, cannot add much except, something i was told years ago. do not look at the obstacles like stones, logs etc as invariably you will hit them spend more time looking at a good route. again all good advice but difficult to get into the habit of. 
good luck and welcome to mtb


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## Jonathan M (28 Aug 2009)

Number one, ride within your skills & confidence on a downhill, don't be forced into riding beyond your abilities - nasty things will happen. Your mates might want you to ride faster, but they may not be around to help you if you have to take a few weeks off work because you've broken your collarbone or some similar nasty.

It can be a case of reviewing your rides, and trying to reflect on what parts of the downhills you find the hardest. For me it was/is drop-offs, that feeling of never being able to get enough weight far enough back to avoid going over the bars. So with just a couple of mates rather than the rest of the club it was a case of doing some local rides with known drop-offs, usually where they are isolated, not part of a significant downhill. It was then a case of building upwards in terms of the size of the drop-off, and then transferring the newly learnt skills to bigger off road routes. Almost a form of cognitive behavioural therapy, mond over matter, whatever you want to call it, on harder routes I'd come across a drop-off and then relate to what I'd riden locally - then just convince myself that I'd ridden worse, and look for the best line.

Getting the best line is also important, do you ride full sus or hardtail MTB? It can be useful to identify a smooth rider (not neccessarily a fast rider) and at a safe distance track their lines over the rough stuff. Smooth lines are less important on full-sus, can be more important on a hardtail, so if possible follow a smooth rider on the same type of bike as you ride. 

Bike set up has already been mentioned, but also experiemnt with tyre pressures. It can be very difficult to get this right to begin with, too low means too many punctures, too higher pressure can mean less grip and a more skittish ride. Tyre pressure can be affected by rider weight, size of tyre, type of terrain ridden, type of tyre (tubeless can be run at lower pressures), I'd suggest starting around the 40psi mark and adjust from there.


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## lanternerouge (28 Aug 2009)

ignorance time.... what is a drop off?


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## bonj2 (28 Aug 2009)

lukesdad said:


> I agree with whats been said allready another part of technique is to keep the bike "light" or "unloaded" this means learning to asorb the contours of the trail through your legs and arms rather than through the bike. You should be looking to guide the bike rather than steering it like a road bike adjustment of body weight is important in both descending and cornering you will corner quicker by making the back wheel light to do this shift your body weight foward and into the corner and apply the power.Ride through the corner, your exit speed should be faster than your entry speed.
> 
> And watch out for that front brake, braking balance is another important factor* try using just two fingers on the brake levers*.



 well, or one...


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## bonj2 (28 Aug 2009)

lanternerouge said:


> ignorance time.... what is a drop off?



like a little step down.
you can 'roll' off it by shifting your weight back and letting your arms extend as your front wheel rolls down it, or if you're going fast enough and the terrain's amenable to it, you can fly off it by just going straight at it, holding your weight central and slightly back, cranks horizontal, and just pulling up on the bars a bit as you go off it and your back wheel will land first, very satisfying when you do that.


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## RedBike (28 Aug 2009)

lanternerouge said:


> ignorance time.... what is a drop off?



A sort of step down in level.

I suppose a kerb would be a very little drop off.


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## lanternerouge (28 Aug 2009)

Ta RB, thought so!


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## Mr Pig (28 Aug 2009)

I'm 42 and I hate to tell you but balance does not improve with age! I'm not saying that you can't get better but I doubt you'll catch up with younger riders. Year after year I'm less able to do tricky stuff I used to do with ease. When I was in my teens I could turn a bike in its own length and jump about ten-feet, we used to build ramps and fly over them 'till the bikes broke. These days I can hardly get the bike off the ground and panic at the sight of small rocks! ;0)

Another thing to look at is bike set-up. The trend on today's MTBs seems to be fairly long stems. I hate them! I recently put a really short stem on my bike and it's great. The bike feels far more stable yet direct.

I also feel that having your weight further back is generally better, not just for going down hill. These are personal things I guess but try different bike set-up if you can, you might hit on something that makes a difference.


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## ColinJ (28 Aug 2009)

I've had a few near misses trying to keep up with good downhillers so I don't do it any more. I'm not into adrenaline anyway, so why bother? I ride my MTB to see the countryside, keep fit and for a break from traffic.

My scariest near miss had me down to just one point of contact with the bike. I was doing about 20 mph down a steep rocky descent when I hit a large slab of rock - both feet unclipped, my bum came off the saddle and one hand lost grip on the bars.   

I felt like I was flying and experienced a feeling of deep dread in the pit of my stomach. Fortunately, I managed to get my hand back on the bars, but when I landed I was almost castrated as the saddle dug itself into my nether regions. The bike bounced back into the air and somehow I got my feet back on the pedals before the second landing. I scrubbed off enough speed to regain control of the bike. It was a valuable lesson - ride within your capabilities!


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## Cubist (28 Aug 2009)

ColinJ said:


> I've had a few near misses trying to keep up with good downhillers so I don't do it any more. I'm not into adrenaline anyway, so why bother? I ride my MTB to see the countryside, keep fit and for a break from traffic.
> 
> My scariest near miss had me down to just one point of contact with the bike. I was doing about 20 mph down a steep rocky descent when I hit a large slab of rock - both feet unclipped, my bum came off the saddle and one hand lost grip on the bars.
> 
> *I felt like I was flying and experienced a feeling of deep dread in the pit of my stomach. Fortunately, I managed to get my hand back on the bars, but when I landed I was almost castrated as the saddle dug itself into my nether regions. The bike bounced back into the air and somehow I got my feet back on the pedals before the second landing. I scrubbed off enough speed to regain control of the bike. It was a valuable lesson - ride within your capabilities!*



Great description Colinj!! Makes me want to go and have a go..........


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## Cubist (28 Aug 2009)

lanternerouge said:


> ignorance time.... what is a drop off?


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## nosherduke996 (28 Aug 2009)

Blimey this is sounding even more dangerouse.


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## Mr Pig (28 Aug 2009)

I get off and walk down drop offs ;0)


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## addictfreak (28 Aug 2009)

Sounds like you suffer from the same thing as me on those dodgy downhills.

LACK OF BOTTLE!


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## Mr Pig (28 Aug 2009)

addictfreak said:


> LACK OF BOTTLE!



Accurate understanding of one's abilities and a dislike of hospital.


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## addictfreak (28 Aug 2009)

Mr Pig said:


> Accurate understanding of one's abilities and a dislike of hospital.



I find the older I get the more it hurts and longer its takes to recover


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## Mr Pig (28 Aug 2009)

addictfreak said:


> I find the older I get the more it hurts and longer its takes to recover



Yip. Having said that I'm off to play in the dirt tomorrow, but I'll not be acting the hero. I'd rather be last one to the bottom than first one to the A&E.


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## fossyant (28 Aug 2009)

Mr Pig said:


> Accurate understanding of one's abilities and a dislike of hospital.



Ditto...... rigid MTB here though, fast on XC and up hill, not quite as quick down hill, plus the prospect of doing some serious damage is not tempting.


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## addictfreak (28 Aug 2009)

fossyant said:


> Ditto...... rigid MTB here though, fast on XC and up hill, not quite as quick down hill, plus the prospect of doing some serious damage is not tempting.




Good to see im not the only coward. Maybe i'll re-paint my bike yellow


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## Mr Pig (28 Aug 2009)

We need to stop talking about crashing, I'm going down some hills tomorrow! :0( 

If I crash I'm blaming you lot ;0)


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## lukesdad (28 Aug 2009)

2 points to pick up on really; firstly long stems are only used for xc racing(example on my bike in photo gallery under 1999 bike porn).Secondly its a misconception in the wet that lower pressures give you more grip a higher pressure tyre with hard sus. will cut through the mud to find grip a lower pressure will float on top( to illustrate this imagine trying to push a cricket ball through 2" of mud then try doing ti with a inflated baloon , a bit exagerated I know but you get the idea.


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## Mr Pig (28 Aug 2009)

lukesdad said:


> long stems are only used for xc racing.



I'm talking about how they come from the shop. Everything seems to come out of the packet with a 100mm stem these days and with ever increasing fork lengths it makes for a very wavy front end. 

I like a 50-60 lb in off road tyres, I've never been convinced by running them really soft either.


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## bonj2 (28 Aug 2009)

Mr Pig said:


> I like a 50-60 lb in off road tyres, I've never been convinced by running them really soft either.



i have. i pumped mine up to about 30psi before blasting round whinlatter and took a 45 degree root that i wouldn't normally have a problem with on soft tyres and it had me off. landed on my thumb, it still bloody hurts now.
Unless you're XC racing or aspire to that, there's no point having them any harder than the minimum you need to avoid pinch flats.


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## 02GF74 (28 Aug 2009)

addictfreak said:


> Sounds like you suffer from the same thing as me on those dodgy downhills.
> 
> LACK OF BOTTLE!




yep - the older you get, the less risks you take.

I have the same problem; on the sponsored ride I used to do in peak district, I used to absolutely destoy the youngsters climbing, being 2x their age but they'd go zooming past me on the donwhills.

just take it easy and practise. if you go mad, you then will come off and injure yourself and that will make you more wary.

most of the times I've ever come off was due to braking before a scarey bit.


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## Cubist (28 Aug 2009)

02GF74 said:


> yep - the older you get, the less risks you take.
> 
> I have the same problem; on the sponsored ride I used to do in peak district, I used to absolutely destoy the youngsters climbing, being 2x their age but they'd go zooming past me on the donwhills.
> 
> ...



And the funniest I saw is a woman on our club ride who insists on getting in my zarking way riding in front of me on some tech sections, and goes down drop-offs with her front brake on. You can't roll them that way.........


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## lukesdad (29 Aug 2009)

Cubist said:


> And the funniest I saw is a woman on our club ride who insists on getting in my zarking way riding in front of me on some tech sections, and goes down drop-offs with her front brake on. You can't roll them that way.........




......Brilliant.......Love it!


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## Jonathan M (29 Aug 2009)

Mr Pig said:


> Accurate understanding of one's abilities and a dislike of hospital.



and the need to keep paying the bills!!!!


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## GrumpyGregry (29 Aug 2009)

surrey hills? doubt you need to drop your saddle more than 2 or 3 mm from the height you have it on your road bike - the alps or a trail centre they ain't. one thing to remember; you aren't supposed to sit on a mountain bike you're meant to stand 'in' it. lots of people spend far too much time with their arse glued to their perch when they should be on their toes moving all over the bike as much of the art of bike control off road, especially when descending fast or on technical terrain is about shifting your weight. If you sit there like a dead sailor you'll make very slow progress...

take a close hard look at your cockpit; if you levers and shifters aren't set up properly so its all a straight line from shoulder to finger tip when you are in attack position then you'll never get the rest of your setup right. you are always going to have your hands on the bars; unless things have gone very wrong, so this is your fixed point of contact.

if using spd's then start out on flats, you'll learn more control that way, spd's are great have thier place but learn to ride mtb using flats and you'll end up with superior control skills

other than that read some stuff on bike control (I recommend Essentials: Trailriding Tips and Techniques from Glentress) then go practise, practise, practise, get yourself up the Hurtwood Control and ride the same short sections over and over and over again. find a small drop off or a rooty section or an off camber corner (or whatever it is that gives you the colliewobbles) and ride it over and over and over again. start slow & small and work you way up to fast and small before looking for bigger obstacles to tackle. riding stuff that is out of your league only saps your confidence if you aren't in control. when you become a passenger on your bike rather than its rider then an off is often not far behind.

MTB'ing is a bunch of skills like any others, fitness is only a part of it, the skills have to be learnt, and repetition is the only way to learn them.

imo anyway

btw I lost my bottle following a big crash in Les Gets a few years ago and gave up riding real mountains. I've got my bottle back, courtesy of a skills course, now and went mtb'ing in austria last year and had a great time. Bought a new mtb this summer instead of a new road bike. I'm 49.


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## Mr Pig (29 Aug 2009)

bonj said:


> Unless you're XC racing there's no point having them any harder than the minimum you need to avoid pinch flats.



I think the minimum to avoid punctures is about 50 psi. We did a very long, steep and rocky decent today and two of the guys who had their tyres quite soft got punctures. One of them got two punctures. I had about 60psi rear and 50 in the front and it felt good to me. If you hit a rock at speed it takes quite a lot of pressure to keep that rim away from it.


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## Cubist (31 Aug 2009)

Mr Pig said:


> I think the minimum to avoid punctures is about 50 psi. We did a very long, steep and rocky decent today and two of the guys who had their tyres quite soft got punctures. One of them got two punctures. I had about 60psi rear and 50 in the front and it felt good to me. If you hit a rock at speed it takes quite a lot of pressure to keep that rim away from it.


You see, opinions differ, unless of course it's different tyre types, volumes widths, tread patterns that make the difference. My XC has Schwalbe Ralph rear and Nic front. If I run them much higher than 40-45 they skitter around and bounce/skip off stones etc.


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## GilesM (31 Aug 2009)

Nosherduke996, good man to move over from the dark side, I moved to mtb a few years ago after many years as a roadie.

Firstly, consider the bikes you and those you're are riding with are using, if you are on a hardtail, (even a very good one) and they are riding reasonably good full sus bikes, you will struggle to keep up on the rough/rocky downhills or any fairly technical descents, unless you are quite a lot better than them. As also mentioned, head angles and fork travel will also make a difference, as will the quality of the front suspension forks, and the way that they are set up. Wide bars and shorter stem also help downhill controll. As for tyre prssures, this really depends on the tyre, but if you run with a high pressure, above about 45 psi, then you are at the risk of really bouncing the back wheel (especially on a hardtail) at speed on a rough descent. The trick is to have the tyre hard enough not to get pinch flat punctures and soft enough to grip on all surfaces and help act as additional suspension, I usually ride with about 35 to 40psi, this is with 2.4inch Conti Mountain king suspersonics, this works well, and no pinch flats so far with this setup, I should add this is on my full sus bike. 

That's all stuff to do with improving the bike, but the best improvement can be in you riding, as mentioned, weight backis the important thing, right back in many places, pick your route carefully, and as mentioned, you shouldn't be on the saddle over drop ofs or table tops/jumps etc., a guy at Ae came off infront of me, bought me down quite badly as well, he came to a table top and just tried to ride over it sitting on the saddle. A good idea is a skills course, the main thing as with improving with all technical skill sports, is practise and practise, but also decide what you want, do you want to keep up with these guys downhill, or would you prefer to ride at a slower pace and enjoy the ride more.


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## GilesM (31 Aug 2009)

Cubist said:


> You see, opinions differ, unless of course it's different tyre types, volumes widths, tread patterns that make the difference. My XC has Schwalbe Ralph rear and Nic front. If I run them much higher than 40-45 they skitter around and bounce/skip off stones etc.



I agree, it really does depend on the tyre, and also the type of rim, on Saturday I did the Glentress Black run with a small group, one guy had two pinch puntures, the tyres weren't too soft, just the type of tyres, on a fairly narrow rim.


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## Mr Pig (31 Aug 2009)

Cubist said:


> If I run them much higher than 40-45 they skitter around and bounce/skip off stones etc.



Sure, I guess mine do too, relative to how they might ride at lower pressure, but I would rather deal with than than sit half way up a hill getting chilly as we fix punctures in the rain, which it what we were doing on Saturday. I try to loosen up and let the bike kick around and find its own path. 

One of the guys who punctured clearly had little with him, no back pack or saddle bag, so I said to him "Have you got anything?" meaning tubes etc. He rummaged around in his pockets, pulled out ten pounds and said "Yes, I've got ten pounds for whoever can fix my bike" :0)

I also use Continental Mountain King and rate them, I think mine are 2.2.


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## GilesM (31 Aug 2009)

Mr Pig said:


> I also use Continental Mountain King and rate them, I think mine are 2.2.



I think that maybe the reason why you are having to run at the higher pressure, the normal Conti Moutain King 2.2 does seem to get a lot of pinch flats, the guy with us on Saturday at GT who had two punctures was on the same tyres, he has had loads of punctures recently, he is using the Mavic 717 rim.


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## Mr Pig (31 Aug 2009)

I've never had a puncture on them, they're on Mavic CrossRide wheels. I think if you get a lot of punctures there's something wrong somewhere. I helped the guy who got two punctures on Saturday to fix his first one, he couldn't get the tyre back on the rim. I did think at the time that I didn't like the feel of the rim, it felt very sharp. 

You get a puncture-resistant version of the Mountain King, I'm thinking of getting those next. Ok, they're not going to stop pinch flats but, because I've got puncture resistant tyres on my road wheels, I forget the mud tyres are not! Few times I've battered across broken glass and thought 'Arghh, these aren't puncture-proof' on the other side. Never had a puncture on those tyres though I don't think, can't remember ever having one.


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## GilesM (31 Aug 2009)

Mr Pig said:


> I think if you get a lot of punctures there's something wrong somewhere. I helped the guy who got two punctures on Saturday to fix his first one, he couldn't get the tyre back on the rim. I did think at the time that I didn't like the feel of the rim, it felt very sharp.



I'm sure you're right, a sharp feel to the rim doesn't sound good.

Sorry, I miss undertsood, I thought you were having to run at higher pressures to stop pinch punctures.


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## Mr Pig (31 Aug 2009)

GilesM said:


> I'm sure you're right, a sharp feel to the rim doesn't sound good.



I would've taken a closer look but it was blowing a gale, teaming of rain and we were halfway up a mountain! ;0) We'd already fixed the other guy's puncture, yes, they got them at the same time in the same place, put the wheel back on and this guy was still trying to get the tyre back on. Was darn tight to be fair.


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## bonj2 (31 Aug 2009)

Mr Pig said:


> I think the minimum to avoid punctures is about 50 psi. We did a very long, steep and rocky decent today and two of the guys who had their tyres quite soft got punctures. One of them got two punctures. I had about 60psi rear and 50 in the front and it felt good to me. If you hit a rock at speed it takes quite a lot of pressure to keep that rim away from it.



50!  as in, five, zero?!! neeeiiigh, lad!
I think you (or, your mates who got puncures) must be using narrower rims and tyres than me. I run a sun ringle EQ31 on the back which is a 31.5mm rim, with a bontrager big earl 2.5" tyre.


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## papercorn2000 (31 Aug 2009)

Whoa! I've got narrower rims on my car!

Good tyres are a must. I was using 2.3" Conti Gravitys (really, really tight) but I have switched to Fire XC pros. 

I came to MTBing from XC racing and for years I insisted on a long stem, short travel fork and as skinny tyres as I could get pumped up their max. Fast but a bitch to control at Glentress etc.

Although I still ride a hardtail, now have a long travel fork, short stem and proper hydraulic brakes. The only hangover I have from racing is that I still use a double as opposed to a triple chainring.

Riding is sooo much easier!


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## GilesM (31 Aug 2009)

papercorn2000 said:


> Although I still ride a hardtail, now have a long travel fork, short stem and proper hydraulic brakes. The only hangover I have from racing is that I still use a double as opposed to a triple chainring.



A good hardtail with Long travel fork is a really good comprimise for alot of trails, but try a good full sus, it just makes the ride perfect. I am just about to go back to a double chainset, but this will be a 22/36 and Bash, I never use the big ring, and as the Orange five has a low bottom bracket there are not too many of the 44 teeth left anyway.


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## Mr Pig (31 Aug 2009)

papercorn2000 said:


> now have a long travel fork, short stem and proper hydraulic brakes.



I fitted a very short stem recently and have hydraulic brakes. 100mm fork on a steel hardtail and time and time again on Saturday I found myself thinking 'This bike is bang on'. The Short stem was the last thing I was missing, really gives you confidence in the rough.


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## GrumpyGregry (31 Aug 2009)

+1 on the conti montain kings ( 2.2 black chilli protection version)

safe tyre pressure especially on the rear on a hardtail is hugely affected by your rding style, especially the way you descend. so many mtb'ers, inc myself on too many occassions, descend in a series of barely controlled/avoided crashes with far too much weight over the rear wheel... whereas the really fast folk are in complete control all the time and are constantly unweighting the back end. Amongst those I have ridden with the former get way more pinch flats and general wear and tear than the 'floaters' who ride over obstacles rather than through them....


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## bonj2 (31 Aug 2009)

papercorn2000 said:


> Whoa! I've got narrower rims on my car!



is it a 2CV?


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## bonj2 (31 Aug 2009)

GilesM said:


> A good hardtail with Long travel fork is a really good comprimise for alot of trails, but try a good full sus, it just makes the ride perfect. I am just about to go back to a double chainset, but this will be a 22/36 and Bash, I never use the big ring, and as the Orange five has a low bottom bracket there are not too many of the 44 teeth left anyway.



got to be : http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=27684


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## lukesdad (31 Aug 2009)

You lot must be riding motocross bikes ! 1.8 mythos semi slicks. Catch me if you can.......


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## GilesM (1 Sep 2009)

bonj said:


> got to be : http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=27684



Probably go for this instead, I have a spare 22 inner, so I can just buy the 24, 36 with Bash.

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=26940


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## GilesM (1 Sep 2009)

GregCollins said:


> +1 on the conti montain kings ( 2.2 black chilli protection version)



The Black Chilli ones do seem very good, 2.4 non protected version, at about 35 to 40 psi, works very well.




GregCollins said:


> safe tyre pressure especially on the rear on a hardtail is hugely affected by your rding style, especially the way you descend. so many mtb'ers, inc myself on too many occassions, descend in a series of barely controlled/avoided crashes with far too much weight over the rear wheel... whereas the really fast folk are in complete control all the time and are constantly unweighting the back end. Amongst those I have ridden with the former get way more pinch flats and general wear and tear than the 'floaters' who ride over obstacles rather than through them....



Riding like that is very hardwork on a hardtail though, and quite tough on a full sus, but very satisfying when you get through a downhill section and you feel as though it all went well, and I think you could have a point about the pinch punctures.


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## Mr Pig (1 Sep 2009)

GregCollins said:


> the really fast folk are in complete control all the time and are constantly unweighting the back end.



There were times on Saturday when I had my chin on the saddle and slowing the back wheel with my nuts! I don't want to be fast, I just want to avoid being thrown so far into the scenery that it would take Mountain Rescue to find me! And if I do fall off I'd rather come off the back of the bike than fly over the bars. 

I don't do much of that kind of stuff though so I'm no expert. Staying in one piece is far more important to me than being fast.


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## dellzeqq (1 Sep 2009)

Nosherduke. I'm impressed. Damned impressed. My attempts to transfer at off-roading have been comedy turns. And as for BMX skateparks.........


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## dellzeqq (1 Sep 2009)

Mr Pig said:


> There were times on Saturday when I had my chin on the saddle and slowing the back wheel with my nuts!


This we have to see! Pics please!


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## GilesM (1 Sep 2009)

lukesdad said:


> You lot must be riding motocross bikes ! 1.8 mythos semi slicks. *Catch me if you can*.......



Depends if we are talking up or downhill


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## GrumpyGregry (1 Sep 2009)

Mr Pig said:


> There were times on Saturday when I had my chin on the saddle and *slowing the back wheel with my nuts*! I don't want to be fast, I just want to avoid being thrown so far into the scenery that it would take Mountain Rescue to find me! And if I do fall off I'd rather come off the back of the bike than fly over the bars.
> 
> I don't do much of that kind of stuff though so I'm no expert. Staying in one piece is far more important to me than being fast.



that's the main reason for fitting a rear guard... so there's a nice bit of plastic 'tween crown jewels and the tyre.

I ditto the staying in one piece is more important than fast, having failed to stay in one piece on several occasions, though excess stupidity was usually the cause rather than excess speed, but staying in one piece and being fast(er) are compatible activities. Momentum is your friend.


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## Jonathan M (1 Sep 2009)

lukesdad said:


> 2 points to pick up on really; firstly long stems are only used for xc racing(example on my bike in photo gallery under 1999 bike porn).*Secondly its a misconception in the wet that lower pressures give you more grip a higher pressure tyre with hard sus. will cut through the mud to find grip a lower pressure* will float on top( to illustrate this imagine trying to push a cricket ball through 2" of mud then try doing ti with a inflated baloon , a bit exagerated I know but you get the idea.



So will skiniier tyres, as by the nature of a smaller air chamber they need a higher pressure to prevent pinch punctures.

Lower pressure isn't about grip for me, it is about control, as someone (Bonj??) says it is a further element that reduces a routes "harshness".

I find I can't run skinier tyres, I'm a big guy, not particularly "heavy" in my riding but physically heavy, if you understand. Skinny tyres (1.9s as an example) for me either puncture too easily or I run them at a higher pressure which means they are skittish, and that means less control.


Just reminded me of something that happened a few years ago. As I've said, I'm a big guy, so am not the worlds fastest rider. I was at Rivington with a few mates, near the upper barn, and we were just going to get going up to the Pike and then down - we'd already done a bigger loop around the reservoirs, so this was our final fling. Anyway, heading up to one of the gates some guy on a "posh" bike, think Klein or some such, passes us, and gets through the gate just as we get there. Doesn't hold it open, lets it swing shut in my face. Me & the half dozen mates just look at each other think "WTF???", but then crack on riding up to the tower. Klein guy though has pissed me off. Thoroughly. So I get to the front of about three of us, and just start riding as fast as poss - Chris behind me is constantly saying "go-on Jon, get him, ride faster", that kind fo stuff, just really winding me up more! 

Anyway as we pass him going through one of the gardens that are across the slopes of Rivi he looses traction to his rear tyre, and I kid you not, looks across at us and says something like "my tyre pressures are too high". PMSL, serves you right for not having f@cking manners mate!


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## bonj2 (1 Sep 2009)

GregCollins said:


> that's the main reason for fitting a rear guard... so there's a nice bit of plastic 'tween crown jewels and the tyre.



ah but without one, they can only effectively get sanded down, whereas with one they could be sucked into it and trapped.


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## lukesdad (3 Sep 2009)

GilesM said:


> Depends if we are talking up or downhill



No it depends on who is riding the bike Im afraid!


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## GilesM (3 Sep 2009)

lukesdad said:


> No it depends on who is riding the bike Im afraid!



Not always, can you imagine how close to the podium Steve Peat would be if he road a National Downhill event on 1.8 semi slicks


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## User482 (3 Sep 2009)

GilesM said:


> Not always, can you imagine how close to the podium Steve Peat would be if he road a National Downhill event on 1.8 semi slicks



When he first started racing, he would beat everyone on their fancy DH rigs, riding a fully rigid Kona!


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## Mr Pig (3 Sep 2009)

User482 said:


> When he first started racing, he would beat everyone on their fancy DH rigs, riding a fully rigid Kona!



I've never seen any correlation between having suspension and being fastest over rough ground. Not talking about racing, just from my trips out with mates. I've seen guys blat down hills at idiotic speed on cheapo ridged bikes, far faster than I would dare. And they're often faster up the hill because their bikes are lighter! Who's wise?


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## RedBike (3 Sep 2009)

> I've never seen any correlation between having suspension and being fastest over rough ground.


Suspension is no susbstitute for skill but there's no doubt what so ever that it helps you go quicker / keep control over rougher ground. 

Beg, borrow or hire a long travel full sus bike and take it down a rough trail. If you don't notice just how much smoother it is than a rigid bike then your clearly not going quickly over rough terrain.


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## Mr Pig (3 Sep 2009)

RedBike said:


> If you don't notice just how much smoother it is than a rigid bike then your clearly not going quickly over rough terrain.



This is true. Guys on rigid bikes often comment on not being able to see because of the vibration through the bars.




> Suspension is no substitute for skill



Naa, it's balls, no substitute for balls! Anyone can sit on a bike and roll down a hill without pulling the brakes if they've got the guts to. The rest of us consider what will happen if you crash.


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## lukesdad (3 Sep 2009)

theres more to mtbing than going down hill. If you want go downhill fast go ski-ing !!


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## GrumpyGregry (4 Sep 2009)

Everyone should learn to ride properly on a rigid bike, then graduate to a HT and when that is mastered only then should they be allowed to trade up to the ability compensator that a FS bike can be in the hands of the unskilled. Or else they should just keep the flip out of my effing way on the trails as I'm bored with having to stop because the rider on the expensive full boinger in front has fallen off AGAIN or is struggling to get up the climb AGAIN.

There is more to MTB'ing than going downhill, for sure, though maybe not much more if downhill MTB is your game, personally I love a good climb or a simple XC jaunt using as little tarmac as possible. But going downhill fast is a huge part of the fun. Remember your brakes are for speed control not for comfort - if you're not scared you just ain't going fast enough.

and sometimes not having 20/20 vision on the downhills makes you go faster - if you can't see the obstacles clearly I think you tend not to (over) react to them


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## GilesM (4 Sep 2009)

User482 said:


> When he first started racing, he would beat everyone on their fancy DH rigs, riding a fully rigid Kona!



Downhill courses were a little different then, I would love to see him ride a championship DH course on a full rigid now, I doubt he would be last, but he definately wouldn't be on the podium, that Santa Cruz thing he now rides is as far from a fully rigid as is possible, and also very different to the early downhill rigs of a 10, 15 years ago.


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## GilesM (4 Sep 2009)

Mr Pig said:


> Naa, it's balls, no substitute for balls! Anyone can sit on a bike and roll down a hill without pulling the brakes if they've got the guts to. The rest of us consider what will happen if you crash.



The differance is that the speed that you think you might crash for each person is increased on a good full sus bike. Can I suggest you go to Glentress, hire a good full sus bike, they have Orange and Santa Cruz, and ride the Black run, you'll soon understand. There is a section of down hill on the black called Deliverance, I have ridden it many times on a HT, and on a full sus, without a doubt, I am faster on the full sus, however ride it on any bike, it is just fantastic.


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## GilesM (4 Sep 2009)

GregCollins said:


> But going downhill fast is a huge part of the fun. Remember your brakes are for speed control not for comfort - if you're not scared you just ain't going fast enough.


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## Mr Pig (4 Sep 2009)

GilesM said:


> Can I suggest you go to Glentress, hire a good full sus bike.



I don't like going down bumpy hills too fast. I'm too old and fat ;0) On tarmac or farm tracks, fine, but really rough stuff is too dodgy for fat old pigs. Leave that to the skilled and idiotic.


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## GilesM (4 Sep 2009)

Mr Pig said:


> I don't like going down bumpy hills too fast. I'm too old and fat ;0) On tarmac or farm tracks, fine, but really rough stuff is too dodgy for fat old pigs.* Leave that to the skilled and idiotic*.



Compared to a good downhiller, I don't come into the skilled catagory

The best thing about cycling is everyone can find some form of it that they really enjoy.


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## Jonathan M (4 Sep 2009)

The difference between rigid/HT and full sus is that riding a rigid/HT means some thought has to be given to the line, more so than on a full sus. So riding a rigid/HT can mean the rider develops more "finesse".

Don't know why I'm posting that bollox though, ridden HT for most of the 15 years I've been MTB'ing and am still a lousy rider on the technical stuff - if I was right I should be asuperb rider by now!


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## lukesdad (4 Sep 2009)

If your in it for fun ride f/s if you wanna be fast ride an h/t.


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## User482 (7 Sep 2009)

GilesM said:


> Downhill courses were a little different then, I would love to see him ride a championship DH course on a full rigid now, I doubt he would be last, but he definately wouldn't be on the podium, that Santa Cruz thing he now rides is as far from a fully rigid as is possible, and also very different to the early downhill rigs of a 10, 15 years ago.



Agreed. I have a fully rigid mountain bike of 1992 vintage, I don't think it would last long on a modern DH course! I certainly couldn't tackle the black run at Brechfa on it, yet I made it down on my modern full susser.

My point was only that skill makes much more difference than the bike, not that the bike makes no difference at all.

But speaking of DH, have you noticed that some pro DHers are using all-mountain style bikes rather than full DH rigs?

And as for Peaty - what a result!


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## Kirstie (7 Sep 2009)

Mr Pig said:


> There were times on Saturday when I had my chin on the saddle and slowing the back wheel with my nuts!



There's an eye-watering mtb 'urban myth' about a guy who is in that position, his shorts get caught in the tread which dragged his nuts under the brake bridge....


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## GilesM (7 Sep 2009)

User482 said:


> But speaking of DH, have you noticed that some pro DHers are using all-mountain style bikes rather than full DH rigs?



I think this is some sort of logical evolution, the AM stuff is getting alot stronger, but staying at a sensible weight, and the DH racers want every tenth of a second they can find, if it's strong enough and lighter, then they'll use it, and the AM bikes are becoming seriously long travel bikes aswell, in a few years time, I think the only difference between a DH rig and AM bike will be the closer gear ratio on for the downhill, and perhaps adjustable fork travel for the AM bikes. Interesting that the world champs video on Peaty's own website starts off by advertising the Orange 160, a true AM bike, and something that it is very easy to fall in lust with.




User482 said:


> And as for Peaty - what a result!



Delighted for him, at long last he can actually wear a rainbow jersey, fanatastic.


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## GilesM (7 Sep 2009)

Kirstie said:


> There's an eye-watering mtb 'urban myth' about a guy who is in that position, his shorts get caught in the tread which dragged his nuts under the brake bridge....



That's a thought I like to keep well out of my head on steep descents........


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## Mr Pig (7 Sep 2009)

Kirstie said:


> There's an 'urban myth' about a guy who get caught in the tread which dragged his nuts under the brake bridge....



It could happen I guess! I often wonder if life would be better if I just got them chopped off...


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