# Horrible article on Velorution, WTF were they thinking?



## spindrift (17 Jul 2008)

http://www.velorution.biz/?p=1450


----------



## Riding in Circles (17 Jul 2008)

Do they realise that they are inciting racial hatred?


----------



## tdr1nka (17 Jul 2008)

I can't access the site!?


----------



## yello (17 Jul 2008)

I must admit to being somewhat surprised... is there something (some irony?) I am missing? Okay, maybe an attempt to stir debate... but there are less blunt ways of doing it.


----------



## spindrift (17 Jul 2008)

If I was that stunner on the bike I'd be seriously pissed off my picture was linked to that garbage.


----------



## domtyler (17 Jul 2008)

That is quite shocking, and I am not one who is easily shocked.

That needs to be pulled immediately I'd say, a severe lack of judgement by the editorial staff on that one.


----------



## Origamist (17 Jul 2008)

It is poorly written and makes little sense. 

Seemingly, Euro 2008 is the model London should aspire to in terms of multi-culturalism and civility and then all cyclists and other road users will get on.

Was it written by: 

a) a drunk
 someone with a poor command of written English
c) a muddled thinker
d) a racist (who is adamant s/he is not a racist).

I'm guessing a mixture of all 4. 

Velorution are incredibly naive to post this drivel.


----------



## magnatom (17 Jul 2008)

They say all publicity is good publicity. This proves how very wrong that is.

I expect that they will be in financial difficulties over the next year or so.


----------



## Cab (17 Jul 2008)

Phrase it differently.

People from different nations and different cultures may have different perceptions of acceptable road behaviour, and we should not allow 'political correctness' to get in the way of asking how great an impact such things as mass migration and the slow integration of some populations have on road safety. It is important to reach out to each and every person in every culture and sub-culture represented in the British Isles to ensure that we instil the highest possible standard of behaviour on our roads. 

I'm saying, as near as dammit, the same thing.

Phrased like that, would that be racist? Would it even be contentious?

Its a bad article, thats for sure. Could have raised the same points in a more sensible and sensitive way.


----------



## dondare (17 Jul 2008)

Quite right, too. British cyclists will never be safe until we send all the darkies back home and stop Cockneys from becoming coppers.























This post contains traces of nuts.


----------



## spindrift (17 Jul 2008)

Africans, Jews and cockneys don't resepect cyclists.

But she's not racist.

Sheesh, I'd say it would be pretty hard to tell which driver's are Jewish unless you are offered some kind of physical evidence...


----------



## Cab (17 Jul 2008)

spindrift said:


> Africans, Jews and cockneys don't resepect cyclists.
> 
> But she's not racist.
> 
> Sheesh, I'd say it would be pretty hard to tell which driver's are Jewish unless you are offered some kind of physical evidence...



To justify the accusation of racism we would need to demonstrate that she's picking certain communities or ethnicities out for worse treatment than others, and as she's pretty much anti-everyone I'm not sure thats the case.

So, perhapse more of a sociopath than a racist.


----------



## Cab (17 Jul 2008)

User1314 said:


> It's inciting racial hatred. Pure and simple.
> 
> As a cyclist who rode 6,000 miles for commuting in London over the last year I can categorically state that dangerous and inconsiderate driving has no "one" type of skin colour. There is no one "type". And I cycle from the burbs into Central London through the "inner city".




I agree, my observation is also that skin colour is unimportant here. Hand on heart though, I've seen a disproportionat amount shocking driving from recent immigrants from Eastern Europe, compliance with things like traffic lights and zebra crossings has for far too many seemed entirely optional.

Skin colour taken out of the equation, the question of whether people new to the UK understand what is expected of them on our roads, and whether we can handle this whole area _better_... I dunno, I see nothing wrong with asking that. The article, though, is _terrible_.


----------



## spindrift (17 Jul 2008)

Are Jewish drivers more circumspect?


----------



## Tynan (17 Jul 2008)

why are cockneys in there? Like there's any significant amount of them left in the east end

there in there to be some white/not jewish people that's why

not racist but seems if you even single out ethics for any reason it's seen as racist regardless of why you;'re doing it


----------



## dondare (17 Jul 2008)

Tynan said:


> why are cockneys in there? Like there's any significant amount of them left in the east end
> 
> there in there to be some white/not jewish people that's why
> 
> not racist but seems if you even *single out ethics* for any reason it's seen as racist regardless of why you;'re doing it




Or single out Essex, for that matter.

"London is policed by a bunch of ignorants coming from Essex"


----------



## Arch (17 Jul 2008)

spindrift said:


> Are Jewish drivers more circumspect?





Nice...

I have to say, out here in Provincial (and rather 'white') York, I don't notice much difference in driving from people of different colours or ethnic backgrounds, or from cars registered from overseas. In fact cars registered overseas have a fair chance of being 'better' driven than natives...


----------



## dondare (17 Jul 2008)

Arch said:


> Nice...
> 
> I have to say, out here in Provincial (and rather 'white') York, I don't notice much difference in driving from people of different colours or ethnic backgrounds, or from cars registered from overseas. In fact cars registered overseas have a fair chance of being 'better' driven than natives...




The natives in York are from overseas. They're Vikings.


----------



## Cab (17 Jul 2008)

Origamist said:


> What do you make of this paragraph?



Ill considered, badly written, and provocative. Do you believe its the sort of thing that Bozza would have refrained from saying if he'd thought it prior to becoming mayor? And are you really saying that an influx of visibly ethnic people from a different culture would never cloud popular perceptions of how people looking a certain way may act? 

Its phrased terribly, and with the intent of provoking a response. Take it apart though, get through the charger terminology used, and its simply a dreadfully ill considered piece.


----------



## Origamist (17 Jul 2008)

Cab said:


> And are you really saying that an influx of visibly ethnic people from a different culture would never cloud popular perceptions of how people looking a certain way may act?



No, I have said nothing of the sort, but thanks, yet again, for the misrepresentation. But, "yes", what you say can of course cloud, and in this case, sully perceptions: 

*dark-skinned* immigrants do not cycle *and* *that lowers the standards of the nation.*

What about when white Dutch denizens / WASP immigrants don't cycle - surely that lowers the standards of the nation too (in the author's confused thinking)? What's more, "Dark skinned" can encompass a host of different ethnicities - is the common thread that they all simply don't cycle? It's casual racism.


----------



## gavintc (17 Jul 2008)

Arch said:


> Nice...
> 
> I have to say, out here in Provincial (and rather 'white') York, QUOTE]
> 
> Except t'other Arch from the Minster.


----------



## Riding in Circles (17 Jul 2008)

I see a lot of black and asian people cycling, some of them must be immigrants, this article is diabolical.


----------



## tdr1nka (17 Jul 2008)

Rancid piece of unhelpful verbiage.


----------



## Arch (17 Jul 2008)

gavintc;337701][QUOTE=Arch said:


> Nice...
> 
> I have to say, out here in Provincial (and rather 'white') York,



Except t'other Arch from the Minster.[/QUOTE]

Good point! Thank you. By and large though, there aren't a lot of ethnic minority folk in York - not compared to Leicester where I lived before! Except the Japanese tourists and they are more of a menace on foot than driving, since like all tourists, they are wandering about looking up at the Minster most of the time...

Also, good point about the Vikings, Dondare...


----------



## Cab (17 Jul 2008)

Origamist said:


> No, I have said nothing of the sort, but thanks, yet again, for the misrepresentation.



No, it was a question based on what you said, not a misinterpretation, and I phrased it in such a way that you'd struggle to disagree without going off on a different tangent such as:



> But, "yes", what you say can of course cloud, and in this case, sully perceptions:
> 
> *dark-skinned* immigrants do not cycle *and* *that lowers the standards of the nation.*
> 
> What about when white Dutch denizens / WASP immigrants don't cycle - surely that lowers the standards of the nation too (in the author's confused thinking)? What's more, "Dark skinned" can encompass a host of different ethnicities - is the common thread that they all simply don't cycle? It's casual racism.



If an immigrant group is not visible, then their good or bad behaviour will have no knock on effect on popular perception of how people of that group behave. Or do you think that people just magically know where others come from? 

Like it or lump it, visibly ethnic immigrants acting in a particular way will have an impact on how others who look similar may be anticipated to act; that isn't racism, its just how many people are. Do you dispute that?


----------



## Notsoblue (17 Jul 2008)

What a ridiculous post. Being of mixed race myself I feel that yes, there are differences between people of differeing backgrounds and trends within particular groupings (ethnic, national etc.). But you can't say that dark skinned foreigners are to blame for attitudes to cyclists on the road, its just ludicrous. Its not racist so much as stupid.

I don't understand the point of the post really, other than to just bad talk recent immigrants of colour.

I find this line particularly confusing



> It is a matter of raising standards, by getting rid of those who lower them.



What does this even mean? It sounds like she's advocating ethnic cleansing to improve attitudes to cycling? But that can't really be what she means, right?


----------



## TwickenhamCyclist (17 Jul 2008)

spindrift said:


> Africans, Jews and cockneys don't resepect cyclists.
> 
> But she's not racist.
> 
> Sheesh, *I'd say it would be pretty hard to tell which driver's are Jewish unless you are offered some kind of physical evidence*...



Aren’t they the ones with 4 inches chopped of the Volvo’s exhaust ?  

……. I’ll get me coat….


----------



## Origamist (17 Jul 2008)

Cab said:


> No, it was a question based on what you said, not a misinterpretation, and I phrased it in such a way that you'd struggle to disagree without going off on a different tangent such as:?



I asked you to look at the paragraph (I had not made a statement about that paragraph), your over-active imagination conjured up the rest and then produced a strawman question!! 



Cab said:


> f an immigrant group is not visible, then their good or bad behaviour will have no knock on effect on popular perception of how people of that group behave. Or do you think that people just magically know where others come from?
> 
> Like it or lump it, visibly ethnic immigrants acting in a particular way will have an impact on how others who look similar may be anticipated to act; that isn't racism, its just how many people are. Do you dispute that?



Precisely, Cab, it look's like you've put your thinking cap on. The writer is not in a position to generalise (because the full picture is more complex), but does so anyway, on racial grounds. 

You are apologising for him saying that's "just how many people are". I'm of the belief that you should challenge this kind of lazy and crude prejudice.


----------



## Cab (17 Jul 2008)

Origamist said:


> I asked you to look at the paragraph (I had not made a statement about that paragraph), your over-active imagination conjured up the rest and then produced a strawman question!!



Yes, a strawman used to demonstrate that your implication could not possibly be what you meant. A strawman argument is only a bad thing when you're unaware of using it or, worse, using it to discredit someones views. Here, it was appropriate to discredit the view you were putting across.




> Precisely, Cab, it look's like you've put your thinking cap on. The writer is not in a position to generalise (because the full picture is more complex and possibly unknowable), but does anyway, on racial grounds. You are apologising for him saying that's "just how people are". I'm of the belief that you should challenge this kind of lazy and crude prejudice.



Errm, no, there the writer was referring to what others say, the conclusions others (in Holland) have drawn, with the conversations you encounter. 

Like it or lump it, thats how people are. Suppose you're in a town with an influx of people from (x). And they look similar to a subset of people who live in your town already. Suppose that you encounter dangerous behaviour from people who look like (x), say, five times in a week; disproportionate to their number. Are you more wary of people who look like they may be (x) when you see them on the road? Is that lazy prejudice? 

To say that visibly ethnic people are dangerous on the roads because of their appearance is dreadful, its racist. But to say that people new to an area may have a different cultural perspective on road safety is in _no way _racist. To then move on to say that if there is an influx of people with that different cultural perspective, and they're of a visible ethnicity, that people will be more wary on the roads around people who look that way... Well, like it or lump it, thats how people will act. The solution? Address the cultural differences that make integrating new immigrant communities difficult.


----------



## Cab (17 Jul 2008)

Notsoblue said:


> What does this even mean? It sounds like she's advocating ethnic cleansing to improve attitudes to cycling? But that can't really be what she means, right?



I tend to think that her article is far more dreadfully written than it is malicious.


----------



## Flying_Monkey (17 Jul 2008)

I reckon if they don't take it down very soon, they will have the old bill contacting them for incitement to racial hatred...

But what were they thinking? It is just disgusting and really, really stupid...


----------



## Origamist (17 Jul 2008)

Cab said:


> Yes, a strawman used to demonstrate that your implication could not possibly be what you meant. A strawman argument is only a bad thing when you're unaware of using it or, worse, using it to discredit someones views. Here, it was appropriate to discredit the view you were putting across.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The above comments by Velorution have a racist dimension to me, not to you. Others can make up their own minds.

I'm not debating this any further with you, as your arguments are not necessarily his, and it's his comments I take exception to. As it stands, your more detailed reading/interpretation is not what is on his website - if he thinks like you he should have qualified his remarks or chosen them more carefully.


----------



## Origamist (17 Jul 2008)

Flying_Monkey said:


> I reckon if they don't take it down very soon, they will have the old bill contacting them for incitement to racial hatred...
> 
> But what were they thinking? It is just disgusting and really, really stupid...



I believe someone has already reported it to the Met.


----------



## Cab (17 Jul 2008)

Origamist said:


> if he thinks like you he should have qualified his remarks or chosen them more carefully.



Check back to read my posts to this discussion; thats precisely what I said.


----------



## yello (17 Jul 2008)

What's with the parentheses in the title to the article?



> Go back to your count(r)y



Does that mean anything to anyone?


----------



## dodgy (17 Jul 2008)

yello said:


> What's with the parentheses in the title to the article?
> 
> 
> 
> Does that mean anything to anyone?



Referring to Essex (the County).

Dave.


----------



## HLaB (17 Jul 2008)

I've just read this, I think the thread title is apt, WTF!


----------



## Origamist (17 Jul 2008)

Cab said:


> Check back to read my posts to this discussion; thats precisely what I said.



So, as the article stands, without your more genteel (and a tad more sophisticated) interpretation, do you find the language employed racially insensitive? I think it is, but you appear not to. I'm now intrigued.

User1314 - I want to know who he means by black skinned immigrants. Do people from Morocco count, what about Turks, or maybe it's only those from Suriname or Aruba, or who knows - he lumps people together with casual disregard for their ethnic difference.


----------



## buddha (17 Jul 2008)

I am of South Asian origin (Burmese).
During the latter part of autumn, winter and spring I'd say my skin colour is a medium tan. However during summer it turns much darker.
Does that mean my road sense worsens during the summer months?:?:
And what happens if you have a fake tan?

As I see it, here is somebody who has had an 'incident(s)' on the road. And has made the narrow-minded generalisation that all ethnic minorities behave in a similar way. And has then abused their position in writing this public article/rant. Plonker!


----------



## Cab (17 Jul 2008)

Origamist said:


> So, as the article stands, without your more genteel (and a tad more sophisticated) interpretation, do you find the language employed racially insensitive? I think it is, but you appear not to. I'm now intrigued.



The language? Yes, but I suspect that the intention was not to be racially charged, I think the intention was to come out with a provocative article to get people talking; that was successful, but for all the wrong reasons.


----------



## dondare (18 Jul 2008)

If the Mail picks this up as an "imigrants vs cyclists" issue, then who's side will they be on?


----------



## dondare (18 Jul 2008)

Origamist said:


> So, as the article stands, without your more genteel (and a tad more sophisticated) interpretation, do you find the language employed racially insensitive? I think it is, but you appear not to. I'm now intrigued.
> 
> User1314 - I want to know who he means by black skinned immigrants. Do people from Morocco count, what about Turks, or maybe it's only those from Suriname or Aruba, or who knows - he lumps people together with casual disregard for their ethnic difference.




Don't get me started about the Turks...


----------



## John the Monkey (18 Jul 2008)

dondare said:


> If the Mail picks this up as an "imigrants vs cyclists" issue, then who's side will they be on?



Depends who eats the most swans, or summat.


----------



## stephenb (18 Jul 2008)

dondare said:


> If the Mail picks this up as an "imigrants vs cyclists" issue, then who's side will they be on?



I'm an immigrant & a cyclist so I guess I'm screwed (jewish as well)


----------



## spindrift (18 Jul 2008)

Clarification posted:
http://www.velorution.biz/?p=1453


----------



## spindrift (18 Jul 2008)

P.S. Below the fold are some of the emails I have received. I would like to single out one remark that is characteristic of the prevalent hypocrisy. Amsterdamize called my previous post “dishonest and discriminatory” and claims that “rather the majority than the minority of (1st/2nd and 3rd generation) of immigrants (most naturalised) uses the bicycle.” How come then, one has to look very hard among the hundreds of photographs he publishes, to see a dark face on a bike. Who is the racist now?
P.P.S. I admit that the title I used has distasteful connotations and its use for effect may have irked people; it is however UK Government policy to expel foreign criminals, and the treatment I was subjected to by several drivers in Streatham last Saturday night was nothing but criminal. 
P.P.S. I will gladly bet £1000 with anyone willing to dispute that people who drive cars with tinted windows are more aggressive and less respectful of cyclists and pedestrians than average.
_Due ruote e un orgasmo, originally uploaded by Luca Arese_


----------



## Origamist (18 Jul 2008)

Cab said:


> The language? Yes, but I suspect that the intention was not to be racially charged, I think the intention was to come out with a provocative article to get people talking; that was successful, but for all the wrong reasons.



Yes, the language!!! I bolded it in this post for you:

http://www.cyclechat.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=337618&postcount=22

I have been talking about his use of certain words - it was you who was trying unpack what he may or may not have been trying to say. 

The guy is using inflammatory, racially insensitive language to be polemical - that makes him a racist in my eyes. 

I don't know what his intention was, but it's a piss poor piece of writing, predicated on a confused conceit with racist overtones.


----------



## Cab (18 Jul 2008)

Origamist said:


> Yes, the language!!! I bolded it in this post for you:
> 
> http://www.cyclechat.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=337618&postcount=22
> 
> ...



Use of the wrong language doesn't make someone racist, intent makes someone racist. Using the wrong terminology is simple ignorance.


----------



## spindrift (18 Jul 2008)

User1314, unless you post pictures of black Amazonian stunners with thighs that could crack a walnut I am reporting you to the authorities for racism.


----------



## Origamist (18 Jul 2008)

Cab said:


> Use of the wrong language doesn't make someone racist, intent makes someone racist. Using the wrong terminology is simple ignorance.



Oh dear, this is opening a window to your personality that I am finding it distasteful.


----------



## Cab (18 Jul 2008)

Origamist said:


> Oh dear, this is opening a window to your personality that I am finding it distasteful.



Now you're just trolling.

Go on, call me a racist now, or compare me with Hitler.


----------



## BentMikey (18 Jul 2008)

This sort of stuff is why he's on my ignore list.


----------



## boffo (18 Jul 2008)

Cab said:


> I tend to think that her article is far more dreadfully written than it is malicious.



Bit surprised to see people referring to Andrea as female. Andrea is male (and Italian, I think - it's the Italian equivalent of Andrew). I know this because I bought my Brompton from his shop last year.

Not sure how knowing he's an immigrant himself alters the discussion ...


----------



## Riding in Circles (18 Jul 2008)

boffo said:


> Bit surprised to see people referring to Andrea as female. Andrea is male (and Italian, I think - it's the Italian equivalent of Andrew). I know this because I bought my Brompton from his shop last year.
> 
> Not sure how knowing he's an immigrant himself alters the discussion ...



Aren't there a lot of fascists in Italy?


(just saying)


----------



## Wolf04 (19 Jul 2008)

Original article was IMO racist.
The revised article was IMO an attempt at politically correct racism.
If people want to dicuss the effect of immigration on cycling or any other aspect of society then go for it but don't use this bollox as the basis.


----------



## yello (19 Jul 2008)

Andrea's not the mechanic guy there is he? The one with the pony tail?


----------



## boffo (19 Jul 2008)

yello said:


> Andrea's not the mechanic guy there is he? The one with the pony tail?



I think Andrea is the owner and manager of the shop.


----------



## Origamist (20 Jul 2008)

From the Velorution blog:

http://www.velorution.biz/

Two important corrections:

I was talking yesterday to a gentleman from NedRail (the Dutch railways), who is responsible for selling Dutch expertise in bicycle infrastructure and integration to Network Rail and TfL (more of specific plans in a future posting). He told me that in the Netherlands there are special introductory cycling courses designed for immigrants, similar to the free adult courses offered by most London boroughs [Also of note: Jagonari, a Women’s Centre based in Whitechapel in East London, which has created a new bicycle training course for local Bengali women]. He was keen to point out that these courses are successful and immigrants from all cultures integrate in the country’s cycling way of life. My previous post may be interpreted differently, and I stand corrected. Incidentally my original source, was Workcycle (in this post), which I regard an expert commentator of the Dutch cycling world.
Even though I have sometimes used “we”, rather than “I”, the writings and opinions of this blog can be attributed to me only, Andrea, proprietor of Velorution, and do not represent those of the staff working here, who are much more polite and diplomatic. It is therefore your pregorative not to shop here if offended by what I have written, but please do not harass people working here: they are all here to help you in choosing the most appropriate cycling equipment and to ensure it runs safely and smoothly.


----------



## Flying_Monkey (20 Jul 2008)

Yeah, that's all very well, but that's not what he said in the original article at all. He just had a massive racist splurge against just about every one , including Jews and Cockneys. Now correct me I'm wrong but Andrea is a rather more recent immigrant than most cockneys, and my Jewish ancestors have been here for over 100 years. Perhaps Andrea needs a special course in British traditions of tolerance. He would still do better to remove the original racist article, apologise and, if all he is suggesting is courses in cycling awareness for immigrants then write one about that. As it happens, I still disagree that there is anything particlarly bad about the way that recent immigrants treat cyclists - the worst incidents that I have had have all been with very much white British drivers... so everyone should have courses in cycling awareness - nothing stupid, racist or controversial there is there, and everyone benefits...

If he has put his staff at risk too, then he is even more of an idiot and shouldn't be running a business, or at least stay in the background and shut up.


----------



## dondare (20 Jul 2008)

Don't get me started on white British drivers.....


----------



## chrisuren (20 Jul 2008)

Someone's in for a bollocking tomorrow morning.


----------



## Origamist (20 Jul 2008)

Another justification from Andrea:

I have been taken aback by the reaction the post has generated. My surprise is probably due that as an immigrant myself, I have not understood the sensitivity English people have to matters of race; it is basically a taboo subject and one should be very careful in saying anything that may be misinterpreted.
The article was not about race but about behaviour on the road and police attitude towards it and resulted from my personal experience of several months of riding in several parts of London that I was not familiar with. I had observed that in areas where there is a predominance of people of certain ethnic/cultural background, respect for vulnerable road users is low. This after all is to be expected: if one comes from a culture where the bicycle is seen as a poor person's vehicle, one is not likely to change one's opinion overnight.
I then stated that unfortunately we are not going to see any leadership from the Police, who is rife with similar prejudices against bicycles.
My wish then is for the Mayor to apply UK legislation (expulsion of foreign criminals) to crimes on the road as well.
I stand behind the article but of course in future I will be more careful in the words I choose.

http://londonist.com/2008/07/bizarre_bicycle_blogging.php


----------



## bb1 (24 Jul 2008)

I must say, anyone who has an aversion to what Andrea wrote or blindly calls it _racist _simply hasn't cycled on London's roads very often.

It's true that you can't generalize populations, but it's also true that each population represents a bell-curve ranging from cyclist-friendly to cyclist-hostile. From my experience of riding through the West End every day, the bell curves for the minorities mentioned by Andrea slide markedly towards the cyclist-hostile.

It's all very well defending a society from true racism, but vilifying someone for a well-intentioned observation does nothing to further a very important debate; it only serves to silence discussion.


----------



## Wolf04 (24 Jul 2008)

bb1 said:


> It's true that you can't generalize populations, but it's also true that each population represents a bell-curve ranging from cyclist-friendly to cyclist-hostile. From my experience of riding through the West End every day, the bell curves for the minorities mentioned by Andrea slide markedly towards the cyclist-hostile.



"It's true that you can't generalise populations" but you do anyway 
Your names not Andrea by any chance?


----------



## Cab (24 Jul 2008)

bb1 said:


> It's all very well defending a society from true racism, but vilifying someone for a well-intentioned observation does nothing to further a very important debate; it only serves to silence discussion.



You must admit that if her intention was to initiate an intelligent debate, her choice of language was simply shocking?


----------



## Wolf04 (24 Jul 2008)

Cab said:


> You must admit that if her intention was to initiate an intelligent debate, her choice of language was simply shocking?


He


----------



## Origamist (24 Jul 2008)

bb1 said:


> I must say, anyone who has an aversion to what Andrea wrote or blindly calls it _racist _simply hasn't cycled on London's roads very often.
> 
> It's true that you can't generalize populations, but it's also true that each population represents a bell-curve ranging from cyclist-friendly to cyclist-hostile. From my experience of riding through the West End every day, the bell curves for the minorities mentioned by Andrea slide markedly towards the cyclist-hostile.
> 
> It's all very well defending a society from true racism, but vilifying someone for a well-intentioned observation does nothing to further a very important debate; it only serves to silence discussion.



I called Andrea a racist and am happy with that definition. (Cab diagnosed him as possible sociopath, but I'll leave that to clinicians to determine).

bb1 - as your opinion dovetails with Andrea, can you tell me how you're defining and spotting cockneys or how you're differentiating "North Asians" from "South Asians" etc? Do you find particular Jewish movements more aggressive on the roads than others - are Orthodox Jews worse than those that follow Reform Judaism - or are they all as bad as each other?! What about Christians though - aren't the roads around Lambeth Palace strewn with the corpses of cyclists butchered by the Anglican community...


----------



## Wolf04 (24 Jul 2008)

Origamist said:


> I called Andrea a racist and am happy with that definition. (Cab diagnosed him as possible sociopath, but I'll leave that to clinicians to determine).
> 
> bb1 - as your opinion dovetails with Andrea, can you tell me how you're defining and spotting cockneys or how you differentiating "North Asians" from "South Asians" etc? Do you find particular Jewish movements more aggressive on the roads than others - are Orthodox Jews worse than those that follow Reform Judaism - or are they all as bad as each other?! What about Christians though - aren't the roads around Lambeth Palace strewn with the corpses of cyclists butchered by the Anglican community...



Wish I'd said that!


----------



## Disgruntled Goat (24 Jul 2008)

Was Andrea on crack when she wrote this?


----------



## Flying_Monkey (24 Jul 2008)

Disgruntled Goat said:


> Was Andrea on crack when she wrote this?




He. Andrea is a bloke.


----------



## simon l& and a half (24 Jul 2008)

I think they're as outraged by the presence of people from Essex as they are by people from Africa.

This is all very wierd, and not at all pleasant. I have to go to Great Castle Street on Saturday afternoon - I might just pop up and ask them what it's all about.


----------



## Maz (25 Jul 2008)

I've only just read the article and couldn't believe how racist it was (perhaps it's meant to be ironic or something?? If it is, it's lost on me). I'd never heard of Velorution before and thought maybe it was a extreme right-wing organisation...turns out they're a cycle store!

Why they don't pull the plug on that article is beyond me.


----------



## Maz (25 Jul 2008)

Cab said:


> Use of the wrong language doesn't make someone racist, intent makes someone racist. Using the wrong terminology is simple ignorance.


Yeah, cheers, Cab. 

I must remember that next time I get some racist abuse from the occupants of a passing car. Maybe I should try and catch up with them at the lights and ask them what they meant by it.


----------



## womblechops (25 Jul 2008)

I am quite shocked by this. I do think that the "wrong language" is no defence - it is always the argument of the BNP that they are not racist, they are merely presenting facts.

I am glad I came across this forum though as I was actually planning on buying a bike from Velorution (a retrovelo) and I can now confirm that I will be taking my business elsewhere. 

Confusions over language or not, a business website is one area where you would expect a higher threshold of care and attention in what is being posted. This was a regrettable, and probably costly, lapse.


----------



## Maz (25 Jul 2008)

Welcome to the forum, womblechops.
It might not look like it from this discussion, but this really is the Commuting section. Honest.


----------



## spindrift (26 Jul 2008)

Oh, I posted it here cos Andrea refers to commuting in London, probably the wrong place, sorry!

The apology is just digging a hole, AFAICS.


----------



## Cab (26 Jul 2008)

Maz said:


> Yeah, cheers, Cab.
> 
> I must remember that next time I get some racist abuse from the occupants of a passing car. Maybe I should try and catch up with them at the lights and ask them what they meant by it.



Oh come off it. That you may suffer abuse at the hands of racist morons is in no way relevant to anything I said.


----------



## Riding in Circles (26 Jul 2008)

I am sure Andrea Mussolini or whatever his name is meant nothing by it.


----------



## Cab (27 Jul 2008)

Catrike UK said:


> I am sure Andrea Mussolini or whatever his name is meant nothing by it.



Now you're simply hurling abuse about. Good luck with that, I hope it makes you happy.


----------



## Riding in Circles (27 Jul 2008)

Cab said:


> Now you're simply hurling abuse about. Good luck with that, I hope it makes you happy.



I'm trying to work out if your making a miserable attempt at irony with this posts or if you are just miserable.


----------



## Cab (27 Jul 2008)

Catrike UK said:


> I'm trying to work out if your making a miserable attempt at irony with this posts or if you are just miserable.



And now you're aiming just to troll?

There is no hidden intent to my post, no attempt at irony; re-read the thread if you don't understand what I've said, and if you _can't_ then understand, well, tough.


----------



## Riding in Circles (27 Jul 2008)

Cab said:


> And now you're aiming just to troll?
> 
> There is no hidden intent to my post, no attempt at irony; re-read the thread if you don't understand what I've said, and if you _can't_ then understand, well, tough.



I think you are the one who is trolling for effect, not very well though.


----------



## chap (15 Sep 2009)

The hypocrisy and insular nativity of that owner is outstanding. I am all up for 'freedom of speech', but at least let it be based on fact rather than pure conjecture and prejudice. 

It's a shame that fools like that are associated with the Cycle Campaign, but I guess it takes all sorts.


----------



## velorution (16 Nov 2009)

Velorution would like to apologise for any offence caused by the article in question(removed long time ago from our site). It was an error of judgment on our part.


----------



## Origamist (16 Nov 2009)

What an odd thread this was. 

It's good to see a simple apology from Velorution - not the mealy-mouthed sorry that was posted on the website at the time.


----------



## mr_cellophane (16 Nov 2009)

Hadn't noticed this thread before but 


> whenever I am in an area with predominance of Africans, Jews, South Asians, Cockneys


WTF every area of London must have a predominance of one of those.


----------



## MacB (21 Nov 2009)

There may be a positive though, perhaps Andrea has now had cause to review his thinking on certain matters. It may have caused others to look a bit more closely at their own motivations. If people think like this I'd rather know it and take steps to address it, than have it fester underneath.


----------



## chap (21 Nov 2009)

*Velorution prepares for Christmas*



MacB said:


> There may be a positive though, perhaps Andrea has now had cause to review his thinking on certain matters. It may have caused others to look a bit more closely at their own motivations. If people think like this I'd rather know it and take steps to address it, than have it fester underneath.




I would doubt the ignorant man would have bothered to address his views, this is merely a calculated apology. If you look at the posts on his rather lamentable site, you can see that he still applies the same approach in is reasoning, i.e. none. There are frequent references to Britains 'Third World standards' (odd coming from an Italian), and cheap attacks on whoever he deems is easy prey.

It took the man a rather long time to apologise, and I have noticed that several sites (most importantly those open to the public with references to his post) have been targeted. Methinks a certain shop-keeper is preparing for the Christmas trade.

Rupert Murdoch has more integrity.


----------



## MacB (21 Nov 2009)

chap said:


> I would doubt the ignorant man would have bothered to address his views, this is merely a calculated apology. If you look at the posts on his rather lamentable site, you can see that he still applies the same approach in is reasoning, i.e. none. There are frequent references to 'Third World standards' (odd coming from an Italian), and cheap attacks on whoever he deems is easy prey.
> 
> It took the man a rather long time to apologise, and I have noticed that several sites (most importantly those with independent reviews) have been targeted. Methinks a certain shop-keeper is preparing for the Christmas trade.
> 
> Rupert Murdoch has more integrity.



Yep, never said it was a given but I'd still rather this sort of thing was out in the open.


----------



## chap (21 Nov 2009)

*Velorution: opportunists*



MacB said:


> Yep, never said it was a given but I'd still rather this sort of thing was out in the open.




Same here, which is why I would have believed it to be more of an authentic apology had he apologised soon after the post, instead of arguing his null-point with customers and bloggers. Instead he removed the post after complaints, and now appears to have seen the light and thus apologises on various open forums.

Surely it would be a lot more sincere if he kept (or reposted) the original diatribe on his blog, with the comments, with the original update, and then with his latest *Christmas time* apology.


----------

