# Weight Loss - why arent I losing more ?



## zak3737 (8 Apr 2018)

I'm a reasonably fit & healthy 56yr old, big build, 15'4lbs, 5'11.
Always been that kind of weight, I think I was 14.5stone when I left school, - Rugby player frame etc etc.
I carry a little round the middle, but not bad in reality, and certainly NOT what any BMI chart might suggest ! I'm a Chris Hoy kind of Build !

Took to Road cycling 3/4 years ago, regularly doing 60+ mile rides, at circa 15mph averages etc, but for one reason or another, did little last year.
So, picked up a Wahoo Kickr Snap Turbo Trainer back in November to get fit over the winter, as I know that my motivation to get out in bad weather is poor.
Since November, done at least 4/5hours per week, at an hour each time, and have kept all my stats since then, which to be honest, has been a great motivator, and my Power output average has climbed steadily month by month, whilst my Heart Rate average has remained reasonably constant. Some days I find it easier than others, as you'd expect perhaps, but overall, the stats show gains and increased fitness for sure, so all good.

The thing is, and this is whats puzzling me,...... I am perhaps 4/5lbs lighter, but after burning 60k Calories in the last five months, I expected to be a stone lighter !!!
My diet is the same, perhaps slightly better, and althoigh I dont deny myself anything in reason, I'm not 'eating more' than I was before, so the Nett Calorie intake is less.

Could it be that while I've lost perhaps more than 5lbs of Fat, I've put on a lot of muscle thats negating any 'weight' loss ? Undoubtably, my thighs feel significantly better/stronger/bigger, as they used to be, so maybe thats the reason ?

Incidentally, although my wattage/HR was careful at the start, its gradually bulding now, and at an Average HR over the hour of 119, Power output is up to circa 175W/hr, which I know will be moderate by a lot of your standards, but is hopefully reasonably respectable for a 56yr old !?!?

Any opinions appreciated,
Thx


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## keithmac (8 Apr 2018)

Start measuring your waist?.

Muscle weighs more than fat for the same volume so you could be trading body fat for muscle..


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## screenman (8 Apr 2018)

You burn a lot of fat off before you start to build any muscle, so forget that old excuse. You are eating too much, is the reason I would say you are not losing weight, do you keep a food diary? an honest one that is.


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## Fonze (8 Apr 2018)

I'm no expert by any means, but what worked for me was a quality breakfast, porridge and fruits .. then a protein shake with fruits and kale/spinach .. ride, banana, light lunch .. walk, tea before 5:30 at night, balanced meal .. then nothing at all after that ..
Weekend one of the days have a treat so not to feel like dieting, rather than healthy eating ..
Plenty water, I cut out even fresh orange that I love, usual suspects for tea like chicken, turkey, fish ..
Portion size too, eat slow, glass of water before you eat try to fill stomach ..


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## HLaB (8 Apr 2018)

zak3737 said:


> My diet is the same,



You've answered your own question, you need to look at that


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## Racing roadkill (8 Apr 2018)

If you’re not losing weight, eating properly, and exercising properly, you don’t have the weight to lose. If you do lose weight, it’s going to be a forced effort, it won’t stay off, and will do more harm than good.


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## zak3737 (8 Apr 2018)

HLaB said:


> You've answered your own question, you need to look at that



I take your point, but my Nett Calorie intake is less than it was before I started training so much......
As I said, I've kept all my stats, which includes Calorie's burnt on each session, which I would have thought is reasonably accurate as Wahoo seem to know what they are doing Fitness wise.
That Total is over 60k Cals burnt since 24 Nov, which makes my Nett Cal intake wayy less over the last 4.5months.


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## si_c (9 Apr 2018)

Keep a food diary, easiest way is using an app like MyfitnessPal. Your calorie deficit is probably not as great as you think, although you have lost weight.

I find I eat more when using the trainer without thinking about it.


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## Red17 (9 Apr 2018)

You mention your average heart rate in the OP and to me as a fellow 56 year old and average of 119 on a turbo over an hour seems very low intensity (obviously all relative to what your max is). 

Might be that you need to up the intensity of the workouts a bit (assuming this has no health risks). 

I have found Joe Friel's book Fast after 50 a good read. One of the few books aimed specifically at older cyclists.


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## zak3737 (9 Apr 2018)

Red17 said:


> You mention your average heart rate in the OP and to me as a fellow 56 year old and average of 119 on a turbo over an hour seems very low intensity (obviously all relative to what your max is).
> 
> Might be that you need to up the intensity of the workouts a bit (assuming this has no health risks).
> 
> I have found Joe Friel's book Fast after 50 a good read. One of the few books aimed specifically at older cyclists.



Thx, I'll see if I can get it and read.

What I generally do on a 1hr session is warm up for 5/10 mins at a steady pace, which might be 95-105......and then gradually build up, and really its
only after 20mins that I'm in the zone.
My Resting HR is circa 55, and based on the Zones, Wahoo shows that the Zone 2 (Fat burning) ceiling is 115, based on a Max Safe HR of 165 perhaps.
On that basis, I'd assumed that working at or around those averages for an hour would be quite good, but more recently, I have pushed up into the Burst zone more and more.
Yesterday for example, my average was 121, but after a steady start, when strangely my HR seemed lower than usual, I pushed it harder and was at 140+ for quite a while, and pushing out well over 220W. Average Watts for the Hour ended at 184.
It was the hardest hour I've done so far, a good sweat generated, but still felt good after an hour.

I hate starting like a banshee, going flat out early, perhaps I'm just an inherrently lazy fecker !


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## vickster (9 Apr 2018)

How many calories is your device guesstimating per hour, assuming 15mph equivalent?

Rule of thumb, 30 cals per mile for a decent effort which at 15mph (seems slow on a turbo unless you have hill equivalent resistance) would work out around 450 cals an hour optimistically I think

Get out and ride on the roads, much less sweaty and you actually go somewhere


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## Drago (9 Apr 2018)

Measure your key dimensions as well as your weight. I suspect the changes have been greater than you realise, particularly if you are a mesomorph.


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## zak3737 (9 Apr 2018)

Vickster: I use the Wahoo Fitness App, connected by Blutooth to my Wahoo Kickr Snap, and tbh, the Calorie's used on each session seem entirely in line, and vary according to HR/Cadence/Power etc etc........I'll get in touch and ask them how accurate they think the figures are.

Yesterday: 1hr 22.7mph 22.7mls. 184W Cadence 62 736 Cals.
- so on your formula, 736 div by 22.7 = 32.4Cals/mile. - so about right ?

Drago: I hear ya. My clothes are fitting me better in some respects, but thinking about it, possibly jeans are more snug around butt/thighs etc,


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## Tin Pot (9 Apr 2018)

Calories in/calories out is a fantasy built on assumption. Don’t even bother!

Your weight, and general health, is primarily down to your nutrition - in short snappy one liner: you can’t outrun a poor diet.

Make small, liveable, but significant changes to your diet and some excess fat will start to come off.


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## si_c (9 Apr 2018)

Might be worth considering a virtual training tool like Zwift. There are a lot of training plans on there that you can follow which give you some structure.

I've found that I can ride more or less endlessly at a low intensity, and not lose significant weight (some of that is diet, I try, but fail), where I really see a difference is with high intensity work, so intervals or over/under FTP training (also SST sessions are quite good), which keep your effort levels really high. But if you are even slightly competitive, then the competitive races are superb, lots of high intensity as well as sprint exercises.

I had noticeable physical changes to my legs, particularly thighs and calves even without much weight loss, I'm a 32" waist (6'5") but I have to wear large sized jeans as otherwise I have trouble fitting my thighs in, one pair Mrs C really wanted me to try, I couldn't get my calves past the knee. As @Drago said above, physical measurements are a better indication of body composition change than measuring BMI or considering weight alone.


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## Tin Pot (9 Apr 2018)

zak3737 said:


> Vickster: I use the Wahoo Fitness App, connected by Blutooth to my Wahoo Kickr Snap,


You might benefit from structured training too, have a look at what others are saying here:

https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/structured-training-in-2018.229025/


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## zak3737 (9 Apr 2018)

Tin Pot: Dont get me wrong, we do have a good diet, my wife is a good cook, and on a mission herself, but even without that, rarely takeways etc, just good diet. Ok, I like the odd bit of chocolate or ice cream, but I dont drink much, or smoke, and we dont have crisps/biscuits at hand.

Si_c: The Chap I bought my Kickr from had had massive results from using Zwift, but I dont think I'm competetive enough for that. 
I think I'm going to keep on with my TT sessions, as well as getting out now the weather is changing. I've been seeing my sessions output averages building each month, which is a motivator in itself, so I'll carry on with that. To date for April, my power output seems to have jumped markedly, so all's going in the right direction, and lets face it, the extra weight I carry hasnt gone on in 4mths, so guess it doesnt come off in 4 either !!


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## si_c (9 Apr 2018)

zak3737 said:


> Si_c: The Chap I bought my Kickr from had had massive results from using Zwift, but I dont think I'm competetive enough for that.
> I think I'm going to keep on with my TT sessions, as well as getting out now the weather is changing. I've been seeing my sessions output averages building each month, which is a motivator in itself, so I'll carry on with that. To date for April, my power output seems to have jumped markedly, so all's going in the right direction, and lets face it, the extra weight I carry hasnt gone on in 4mths, so guess it doesnt come off in 4 either !!


Fair enough, I find the competition useful, but you have a smart trainer, so using a virtual world like Zwift actually makes sense, I find that just going for a ride around the virual world is more interesting than watching power figures. But each to their own!

Edit: Forgot to mention, they do a 7 day free trial so you can give it a go see how it goes.


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## Alan O (9 Apr 2018)

I started out my fitness/weight loss drive this year at relatively low intensity. I don't measure power or anything like that, but I do keep a check on my HR during exercise (all day, in fact, with my fitbit). I was originally riding mostly in my fat burn and cardio zones (as defined by fitbit) with relatively short periods in my peak zone. At the gym I was doing mostly cardio work with sessions on the elliptical and the rower.

As my weight has been falling, I've been pushing myself into higher intensity work. I get into my peak zone more when cycling - my last ride was a little under 3 hours, with a full 128 minutes in my peak zone (including belting round some woods on my MTB). I'm also doing higher-intensity things at the gym, like using weight training machines and doing harder rowing sessions.

Overall, I've got over my first weight loss plateau (I can't be sure it was upping my intensity, but it can't have done me any harm), and the weight is still going down steadily.

So higher intensity work, I definitely agree with that.

The other thing is keep a count of your kcals. It's easy to think your diet hasn't changed, but it's very easy to just eat a little bit more from time to time without really noticing. I know the kcals in just about everything I regularly eat, and every time I eat anything I jot down the kcals in my daily total - there's a text file open on my computer permanently, and it's surprising how often I get to the end of a day having eaten either significantly more or significantly less than I felt like I had.

A lot of people say kcal counting is no good, but I definitely find it helps me.

I don't know if any of this might help you, but you might benefit.


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## PaulSB (10 Apr 2018)

zak3737 said:


> Tin Pot: Dont get me wrong, we do have a good diet, my wife is a good cook, and on a mission herself, but even without that, rarely takeways etc, just good diet. Ok, I like the odd bit of chocolate or ice cream, but I dont drink much, or smoke, and we dont have crisps/biscuits at hand.



Ah Ha! The above to my mind is your answer. “we do have a good diet and, (in my case,WE), are good cooks.” These are almost the exact words I used when talking to a friend with a very deep interest in sports nutrition and weight control/loss. I was asking her for advice.

She helped me with some basic advice which I follow and helps me control my weight or lose it when necessary.

Keep a food diary, an honest one, then learn about the food you are eating, how the body uses and stores the carbs, proteins etc. If you’re “good diet” contains foods your body doesnt need immediately it will store this as fat.

Are you eating enough for your body and of the right things? Before I took advice I’d cut my calorie intake quite drastically but got little by way of results. After keeping a food diary and taking advice my calorie intake increased but my weight dropped. It was put to me that if the body is provided with the correct fuel in the right amount it will burn this efficiently. If the body “thinks” it’s not getting enough fuel it will store any surplus for when it’s needed. This is laid down as fat.

Do you drink a lot of tea and coffee? If do cut this down to at most two cups a day and up your water intake to 2-3 litres per day.

My knowledge is very, very limited but the changes I made resulting from my friend’s advice have been steady and sustainable.

While I don’t want to be a miserable so and so I wouldn’t expect 4-5 hours a week on a turbo to have any impact on my weight after losing an initial amount. Of the numerous cyclists I know who use trainers not one of them counts weight loss as a benefit. Most are still moaning about their winter weight gain.

Regular exercise is a huge help but the real answer is diet, diet, diet. When I commuted 36 miles round trip and rode 80/90 on a Sunday I lost weight. At +/- 360 miles/week that’s a lot more exercise, I think, than you describe.


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## The Jogger (10 Apr 2018)

Try cutting carbs just for one week to see what happens. You'll be amazed, then try anything else if it doesn't work.


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## greenmark (10 Apr 2018)

https://www.vox.com/2016/4/28/11518804/weight-loss-exercise-myth-burn-calories


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## zak3737 (10 Apr 2018)

greenmark said:


> https://www.vox.com/2016/4/28/11518804/weight-loss-exercise-myth-burn-calories



Interesting read.
But this hypothetical statement is more or less me.......replacing the running for TT.
"_If a hypothetical 200-pound man added 60 minutes of medium-intensity running four days per week while keeping his calorie intake the same, and he did this for 30 days, he'd lose five pounds. "If this person decided to increase food intake or relax more to recover from the added exercise, then even less weight would be lost," Hall added_"

Now, as I said earlier, I perhaps have lost a few pounds, which the above suggests, but having being now working out for 4.5months, and at increasing intensity, that would suggest that I should have lost a lot more !! I arent eating more, and I certainly havent changed my life/rest either, so literally, nothing has changed for me apart from the vastly more amount of exercise.

I think I know what cutting Carbs would do, I'd feel devoid of any energy and motivation to ride at all .......
Calorie/Food intake counting........hmmmm......dont want to be obsessive about this, I dont drastically 'need' to lose weight, I arent someone you'd look at and say he needs to, but we all think we can look better.

PaulSB: Thx for thoughts, and yes, your mileage is/was pretty heavy, dont think I'll ever get there ! Perhaps 3 Teas and 3 Coffee's /Day for me, and my Coffee's are Nespresso pods with Milk, perhaps they would be easiest to cut out, but I love 'em !! 

Going to carry on with the TT and keep increasing Average Power all being well, and may have a go at an FTP test soon, not done one of those before.

And what I think I'm going to do, is go back to 5:2 Fasting, which I did try a few years back, with good results. I found that easier to simply not eat for 2 days, out of 7, much easier than trying to reduce somewhat 'every' day..........


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## CXRAndy (10 Apr 2018)

cycle more, eat a bit less, cut out sweet stuff and processed carbs. Try Zwift, there are many events which aren't races but more fitness based. Train a little harder/longer to burn 750 to 1000 calorie per workout.


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## CXRAndy (10 Apr 2018)

zak3737 said:


> Power output is up to circa 175W/hr, which I know will be moderate by a lot of your standards, but is hopefully reasonably respectable for a 56yr old !?!?



I'm roughly your weight and couple of years younger. The wattage you're indicating is a little low. An FTP of 270W or more would be around where you would expect to be if you have no physical impediments, other than general fitness.

The like of Trainer Road or Zwifts training session will quickly lift your power number if you stick to it.


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## zak3737 (10 Apr 2018)

Thx Andy, I havent done an FTP yet, plan to. The 170W I mentioned is over an hour, starting steady to warm up, building through the hour.
I hope to increase that more, but doubt I'll ever get to 270W over an hour ! 20min/FTP test will show where I am currently I guess.


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## zak3737 (10 Apr 2018)

CXRAndy said:


> cycle more, eat a bit less, cut out sweet stuff and processed carbs. Try Zwift, there are many events which aren't races but more fitness based. Train a little harder/longer to burn 750 to 1000 calorie per workout.



Ps - my last hour on TT showed 736 Cals used, so yes, a little harder or even longer will get me between 750-1000. Must try harder lol


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## vickster (10 Apr 2018)

For an hour, at 15mph over mixed resistance, I’d be very sceptical about that calorie figure, 400-500 might be a little less fictitious if you’re 15 stone. 25 miles an hour might get you to 750 if your metabolism plays ball

How much milk do you have in your 6 teas/coffees...in a day that could easily be 300 calories if milky/latte with semi skimmed or even skimmed


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## zak3737 (10 Apr 2018)

Vickster: 
Tuesday's session...... 
1hr 
@ 22.7mph Avg 
184W 
Cadence 62 
= 736 Cals.

- so seems Wahoo's App Cal calcs are about right ?

Milk: Tea - very little, Coffee's about 100ml of Frothed Semi Skimmed each time, so 300mls, plus say 100ml over 3 Teas, = 400ml Total.
50Cals per 100ml it says, so thats only circa 200cals/Day.


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## vickster (10 Apr 2018)

So you’re going at rather higher output than 15mph?

200 cals is still a fair amount ultimately if you’re trying to lose weight. How many calories are you having a day?

Need a deficit of c. 3500 cals to lose a pound if metabolism normal 

Have you seen a Dr to have thyroid function etc checked?


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## zak3737 (10 Apr 2018)

True.......I guess I could just switch to Black Coffee

I dont keep a tally ultimately, but Cereals/Milk for Breakfast (400 ?) Teas/Coffee at present (200/250cals?)
I had Tuna/Tomatoesand Pickled Cabbage for Lunch today, - cant be more than 300 ?
Apple - ?
And we are to have a Thai Prawn Curry (Slimming World Recipe ) tonight, so thats wont be much, altho some Naann bread might be consumed too !
I dont think I'm up to 2k there, so even allowing for days not quite as strict, I dont think I'm ever much worse than the recommended 2500 for a normal chap, (large framed at that)

Occasional Chocolate or sweets, I admit, are'nt ideal, but I dont scoff Crisps/Biscuits etc etc, we dont have them at home. And I drink very little, perhaps 3/4pints per week after a game of golf.(not after 1 game !!)

March total Calorie burn on Wahoo App workouts are just short of 10k for the month, including a week where I couldnt train due to cold.

I'll just carry on and perhaps start the 5:2 again, and that does reduce the overall intake per week. Once into that, I find it works for me, and reports seemingly show that Training on Fasting Days is particularly good for Fat burn.


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## keithmac (10 Apr 2018)

I'm quite active at work and cycle there and back.

Unfortunately the body is very efficient at using food as energy so for me it was diet only and keep the exercise up.

3500 calorie deficit per week was what I aimed for and it's quite hard to consistently hit.

500 kcal is easily eaten (or drank!).

Plus you'll plateau a few times as well, possibly the body adjusting to the new calorie intake?.


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## TonySJ (10 Apr 2018)

I'm 55 yrs and been road cycling for 18 months, before that very little bike riding other than a bit of M/biking at a leisurely pace. I'm only 12 stone 4 lbs so lighter than the OP.
I think that you need to increase your cadence especially on the turbo to around 85-90 and keep it there. Complete the 1 hours TT ride and see what figures that produces. I tend to ride a low cadence around 75 generally and around 145BPM H/R even on a steady ride. Went out yesterday covered 38 miles. 1st 10 miles below 140BPM HR then the next 28 miles with more effort was average 152BPM HR.
Last December a mate set me up for a months free trial with Trainer Road and I found having figures on screen to focus on helped me up my effort.
I think you need to ride outside so you are varying your effort, hills etc, that way all your stats should show an improvement for a ride out.
Diet needs to adhered to as its all to easy to keep nibbling odd smacks.
If I don't burn 1500 plus on a ride I've been freewheeling for most of the way lol. Usually 2000 2500 cals a ride is my normal burn.


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## Ming the Merciless (10 Apr 2018)

Your average heart rate is around that of if you went for a walk instead. Use the turbo for the health benefits of higher intensity exercise. Change your diet if you want to lose weight.


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## zak3737 (10 Apr 2018)

Evident that some of you, or most perhaps, are quite happy/comfortable with really pushing your HR, and I guess if you are seasoned riders, and mega fit, then thats ok & good.
But I'm a little more cautious in reality, and at 56, I'm not going to start 'really' thrashing myself, I just dont think its wise. I'm building up well, considering how I felt back in November, and I certainly feel a lot lot stronger. 
I'm away for a week next week, but as soon as I'm back, and the weather has hopefuly turned, I'll start getting out on rides and see if all the TT work migrates to benefits on the road.


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## Alan O (10 Apr 2018)

zak3737 said:


> Evident that some of you, or most perhaps, are quite happy/comfortable with really pushing your HR, and I guess if you are seasoned riders, and mega fit, then thats ok & good.
> But I'm a little more cautious in reality, and at 56, I'm not going to start 'really' thrashing myself, I just dont think its wise. I'm building up well, considering how I felt back in November, and I certainly feel a lot lot stronger.
> I'm away for a week next week, but as soon as I'm back, and the weather has hopefuly turned, I'll start getting out on rides and see if all the TT work migrates to benefits on the road.


Yep, I'd say definitely build your HR up gradually - you need to be comfortable in yourself with each step in your progress. But you might be surprised how quickly your fitness improves step-by-step. I'm not megafit by any count - but at 59 and still overweight, after a couple of years back to cycling I'm already spending significant periods of each ride with my HR in my peak zone (last ride ave 140bpm, maximum 174bpm).

And do keep coming back and telling us how you're doing - I've found chatting about it here very motivating, both for my weight loss and fitness (and generally enjoying cycling).


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## zak3737 (10 Apr 2018)

Cheers Alan, I will.
Out of interest, I've just looked back at stats on my Wahoo Element from mid 2016, when we were doing some good rides and mileage, ie 65miles in rolling East Yorkshire, (and it is), and my average HR then was same as yours, ie 141Bpm Avg, with Max at 168/170.
That said, I never 'push' uphills, I'm inherrently lazy when going uphill, and merely spin my way up. Seeing my HR get up to 170ish even then is enough to tell me that I dont want to push it harder. (just me, I've heard of too many people keeling over)

We did very little riding in 2017, hence why I decided to get the TT in November to get fit again, and so far so good. Additionally, another great thing is that my lower back (SI joint actually....) which has griped me for a while now, .........feels much better too from all the pedalling, - I guess just mobilising hips and glutes and core in general has the benefit of adding strength and flexibility in the whole lower body/back. Happy Days.

Did a session today quick 45mins, and really find it hard getting Cadence higher !! Found today a little harder, but still 176W @ 20.9mph, 127BPM Avg, but Cadence Avg only 61. How the hell you get up to 80/90 I havent a clue !!


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## PaulSB (11 Apr 2018)

Fonze said:


> I'm no expert by any means, but what worked for me was a quality breakfast, porridge and fruits .. then a protein shake with fruits and kale/spinach .. ride, banana, light lunch .. walk, tea before 5:30 at night, balanced meal .. then nothing at all after that ..
> Weekend one of the days have a treat so not to feel like dieting, rather than healthy eating ..
> Plenty water, I cut out even fresh orange that I love, usual suspects for tea like chicken, turkey, fish ..
> Portion size too, eat slow, glass of water before you eat try to fill stomach ..



The above is very similar to the regime I loosely follow. Weight loss and control is all about diet and understanding the foods one eats and how the body uses them. I have a friend who runs 8 - 10 miles a day and rides 80 miles on a Sunday. There was a time when he rode 2-300 miles a week, before he took up running. He never loses any weight. Why? Appalling diet.



zak3737 said:


> Vickster:
> Tuesday's session......
> 1hr
> @ 22.7mph Avg
> ...



I think you miss the point about tea and coffee. It appears you use these to hydrate your body. You should use water. The other point which strikes me, and I hope you don't feel I'm being critical, is you are so focused on stats from an app and machine that you have no focus on your body, nutrition and diet.

Earlier in the thread you said you have burnt 60,000 calories over five months since November. I calculate this as 151 days which means you are burning 400 calories a day from your exercise regime. TBH this is very little. Based on your guesstimate on tea and coffee you could achieve 50% of this by cutting out milk. That you have to guesstimate the milk is an indicator that you are not focusing adequately on diet, you should know the actual amount of milk you use.

One way or another I probably know 100+ cyclists, there are 185 in my club, many who use Zwift or trainers. I have never heard one of them suggest this helps weight loss or control. Sat in cafes with those I know well conversation often includes weight, the consensus being it's 80% diet and 20% exercise and while all the cycling is excellent it doesn't contribute significantly to weight loss on its' own. Of all the riders I know the ones with a weight problem have poor diets and usually sedentary occupations.

If I had put in the same effort as yourself and only lost 5lbs I'd be disappointed and asking questions. I'd be wondering if what I do is effective and if the stats the machines are showing me really are helpful? I suggest when you get on the road you will find you are fit but that is never going to have a relationship to weight loss. Understanding your diet is the key.


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## PaulSB (11 Apr 2018)

I rarely look at stats other than my weight, miles and average speed. To give you a comparison. I’m 63, 5’9” 163lbs - 11st 9lbs.

Sunday - social ride
Distance 85 miles
Avg 15.3
Ascent 4760
Cals burnt 2011
Avg HR 115
Max HR 173

Tuesday - training ride
Distance 26.5
Avg 18.3
Ascent 560
Cals burnt 913
Avg HR 137
Max HR 168

On the Tuesday ride I got dropped after 10 miles - I did the route in 1:27, the group did it 1:14


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## zak3737 (11 Apr 2018)

PaulSB said:


> The above is very similar to the regime I loosely follow. Weight loss and control is all about diet and understanding the foods one eats and how the body uses them. I have a friend who runs 8 - 10 miles a day and rides 80 miles on a Sunday. There was a time when he rode 2-300 miles a week, before he took up running. He never loses any weight. Why? Appalling diet.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thx Paul, I appreciate your thoughts. I'm certain I could be more focused on diet/nutrition etc etc, but I've found over the years that when I try to 'diet' by careful eating or cutting out things, its only doomed to fail as temptation appears.
Thats perhaps why the 5:2 worked for me for the time I did it, as I simply found that denial for 2 days per week was a much easier route to take than abstaining from lots of things for 24/7.

The other thing I found interesting and positive about the 5:2 Fasting, was that it supposedly also prompted the body into 'repair/renew' mode far more than constantly fuelling and eating normally. Interesting, so I'm back on it.

The Milk is an easy fix, I'll cut that out and there's 200cals dropped/day.

All of this is subjective to be honest, I arent 'fat' by any stretch of the imagination, just large build. I just maybe missguidely thought that my Nett Calie intake over time, assuming Diet remained constant, would account for more fat burn and weight loss, than its proved.
But as I said before, (and I know some dont agree)......I'm certain that I have gained some pounds in muscle mass instead, my legs were clearly losing bulk due to non workout, and i'm feeling massive benefits now even when playing Golf, my legs used to be tight & tired after 18holes, not now.

5:2 Fasting from now on, keep TT & building up, and get out and ride more soon, and I'm sure that by the end of summer, the 6pack will be uncovered ! Hopefully !


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## TonySJ (11 Apr 2018)

zak3737 said:


> Cheers Alan, I will.
> Out of interest, I've just looked back at stats on my Wahoo Element from mid 2016, when we were doing some good rides and mileage, ie 65miles in rolling East Yorkshire, (and it is), and my average HR then was same as yours, ie 141Bpm Avg, with Max at 168/170.
> That said, I never 'push' uphills, I'm inherrently lazy when going uphill, and merely spin my way up. Seeing my HR get up to 170ish even then is enough to tell me that I dont want to push it harder. (just me, I've heard of too many people keeling over)
> 
> ...


********


********Did a session today quick 45mins, and really find it hard getting Cadence higher !! Found today a little harder, but still 176W @ 20.9mph, 127BPM Avg, but Cadence Avg only 61. How the hell you get up to 80/90 I havent a clue !![/QUOTE]********

Try this do your normal warm up but then for a timed period 10 or 15 or 20 minutes go in a easy gear to spin up with light effort, you don't want to be pulling your guts out or powering the effort just something that will raise your HR and cadence but keep it at 85 ish. See how that feels and if you can only sustain the cadence for 12 minutes fine, just try different things as I feel your set in your ways of how you currently ride and need to change things a little so you can see the benefits and changes


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## BSOh (11 Apr 2018)

Diey diet diet. Since end of January I've not eaten any junk food. At all. No crisps, chocolates, added sugar. I cut down from 10 teas a day (I know bad right) to two with no sugar. My diet is fruits, vegetables and lean proteins, with a small amount of carbs such as brown rice, couscous.i only eat brown bread. I get healthy fats from fish like salmon. And eat a handful of nuts occasionally. This combined with the gym 4 times a week and I've lost 20lb. Its cutting out the little treats that we tend not to factor in. You have to start thinking that milk in your tea is a treat. Cereal for breakfast drowned in milk is a treat. Its not easy though. Good luck


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## Alan O (11 Apr 2018)

zak3737 said:


> Cheers Alan, I will.
> Out of interest, I've just looked back at stats on my Wahoo Element from mid 2016, when we were doing some good rides and mileage, ie 65miles in rolling East Yorkshire, (and it is), and my average HR then was same as yours, ie 141Bpm Avg, with Max at 168/170.
> That said, I never 'push' uphills, I'm inherrently lazy when going uphill, and merely spin my way up. Seeing my HR get up to 170ish even then is enough to tell me that I dont want to push it harder. (just me, I've heard of too many people keeling over)
> 
> ...


It sounds like your fitness was very good in 2016, and I think it's wise to be cautious when your HR gets around 170. For me, I tend not to notice, as it's usually when I'm having fun with a bit of off-road uphill (my HR rarely gets high on road, as my usual routes take in very few hills), and I don't know my max HR until after I get home and look at the stats. It's possibly not the best approach, especially for someone who has had a heart attack 

As for cadence, a lot of people have written a lot of words about it. And for maximizing power output and efficiency, especially in competitive cycling, it's certainly important. But for most of us just trying to do the best we can in a recreational setting, I don't think it's worth spending too much time worrying about.

All cyclists seem to have a natural cadence, and it varies a lot. I've never really bothered trying to measure mine with any accuracy, but it's around the 90 mark. I am occasionally tempted to get a cadence meter just for fun, but for idle curiosity it would be a waste of money.

When I'm on group rides (social pootling, not "club" rides) I sometimes notice other people's cadence, usually when I'm behind someone pushing a much higher gear more slowly as that sight makes me feel uncomfortable. But they finish the same rides as me, appear at least no less fit than me, and get up the same hills as me (and one rider is known for pushing up hills in gears so high I just couldn't ride them).

Cadence really is another "each to their own" thing, as far as I'm concerned.


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## ColinJ (11 Apr 2018)

I once rode about 750 hilly miles in Spain in 2 weeks but came home about 5 pounds heavier because of over-lavish meals in the hotel buffet, and post-ride beers! The next time I went I did the same distance, ate and drank less, and came back weighing about the same as when I went.

I have lost weight through cycling but it is much easier to lose it by being more careful about food and drink intake.


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## zak3737 (11 Apr 2018)

"_and I think it's wise to be cautious when your HR gets around 170_"

I know a lot may say that you shouldnt worry at all about MSHR etc, unless you've maxed out to find your own, but thats something I arent gonna do anytime soon at my age. BUT, I have an ongoing issue with HR and Alcohol, in that after a few drinks, it raises significantly, and becomes irregular, not pleasant, and particularly to go to bed with. Consequently I drink very little in reality these days, couple of beers here and there, glass or 2 of wine, but never after 7/8pm.

I did find that back in November, my 1hr TT sessions were leaving my HR highish (80's) for quite a while afterwards, (my resting is 55/56) and sometimes irregular too, (as I did find on long rides in 2016), so to be cautious, I went to Docs and was referred to a Cardiologist, and subsequently was fully checked out.
All was ok, Plumbing all reasonable, no worse than he would expect of anyone my age, better than most he said. Phew.

That, and my late Father's extensive Cardio issues, (3 Bypasses) - have perhaps made me a little more 'aware' than most of being careful pushing things, whilst also wanting to stay/keep fit etc.


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## PaulSB (11 Apr 2018)

ColinJ said:


> I once rode about 750 hilly miles in Spain in 2 weeks but came home about 5 pounds heavier because of over-lavish meals in the hotel buffet, and post-ride beers! The next time I went I did the same distance, ate and drank less, and came back weighing about the same as when I went.
> 
> I have lost weight through cycling but it is much easier to lose it by being more careful about food and drink intake.



Exactly. Experienced this many, many times myself. Understanding diet, not "going on a diet," is the key to weight loss. Knowing one needs carbohydrates for fuel and proteins for muscle building and repair. Understanding if the body runs out of carbs it starts using protein as the fuel source. To work at its optimum the body needs the correct fuels, given it too much carbohydrate and it will simply store this as fat for a rainy day.

I did exactly this in the last four days. Sunday 85 miles, 4700 feet, avg 15. I got my nutrition right as we had a cafe stop and I wasn't in any way hungry when I got home. Tuesday night I got it wrong with 26 miles, 600 feet, 18.4 with no cafe stop. I'd eaten fish as my main meal before going out. Within an hour my body was screaming for food which lead to a binge on sultanas, nuts and, I'm a touch ashamed to say, hot cross buns at 10.30pm.


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## nickAKA (12 Apr 2018)

I feel like I'm becoming the forum's pub bore regarding the whole newbies fitness / weight loss thing but here's my 2p - 
I spent the thick end of 30 years living a pretty physically destructive lifestyle, throw in a back injury which put me out of the game for 4 or 5 years and I was an overweight, unfit f**k-up (I can say this now with the benefit of hindsight )

I'd done a couple of half-arsed years at the gym when my daughter was born as I hit 40. I'd lost a few kg's but the gym membership got binned & I bought a hybrid bike. 4 years of recreational riding followed, I learned to skip LUNCH, which reduced, mainly, my bread intake I guess. I cut back on the booze substantially (having a baby is not conducive to 20-pint weekends) and when the weather turned I got out at weekends on my own for more challenging rides..
Bought a fitness tracker. Bought some smart scales. Bought a road bike. In those 4 years since the baby arrived I'd lost approx 4 or 5 kg's without really noticing or thinking about it. Bought a smart trainer. Signed up to zwift. I've subsequently lost 4 or 5 kg's in the last 6 months. It's taken some effort and plenty of time but I'm nearly at my "fighting weight".
As regards the OPs stats, they're not dissimilar to my own, but I feel fit and I can ride pretty much wherever & whenever I want so that's great & I've acheived what I set out to do (but I'm not finished yet!)

My only comment on the training regime, as has been mentioned elesewhere, is look at the heart rate zones... if your max heartrate / threshold is 175, from what I've read (in actual books, not on google...) the "fat burning zone" would be more towards 140bpm. If your aim is to lose weight that's where you want to be, 120bpm is too low (assuming you're not on meds like beta blockers obv).

Don't expect instant results - the diet thing is mind over matter, but you can do it - stick at it, see the results, obtain the motivation to carry on... good luck.

Apologies to those that have heard it all before.


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## Alan O (12 Apr 2018)

nickAKA said:


> I'd done a couple of half-arsed years at the gym when my daughter was born as I hit 40. I'd lost a few kg's but the gym membership got binned & I bought a hybrid bike. 4 years of recreational riding followed, I learned to skip LUNCH, which reduced, mainly, my bread intake I guess. I cut back on the booze substantially (having a baby is not conducive to 20-pint weekends) and when the weather turned I got out at weekends on my own for more challenging rides..


That gives you a great target - to enjoy celebrating _her_ 40th!


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## zak3737 (12 Apr 2018)

nickAKA said:


> I feel like I'm becoming the forum's pub bore regarding the whole newbies fitness / weight loss thing but here's my 2p -
> I spent the thick end of 30 years living a pretty physically destructive lifestyle, throw in a back injury which put me out of the game for 4 or 5 years and I was an overweight, unfit f**k-up (I can say this now with the benefit of hindsight )
> 
> I'd done a couple of half-arsed years at the gym when my daughter was born as I hit 40. I'd lost a few kg's but the gym membership got binned & I bought a hybrid bike. 4 years of recreational riding followed, I learned to skip LUNCH, which reduced, mainly, my bread intake I guess. I cut back on the booze substantially (having a baby is not conducive to 20-pint weekends) and when the weather turned I got out at weekends on my own for more challenging rides..
> ...



Thx - appreciate the thoughts. 
My only query is exactly where the 'Fat Burning Zone is/should be then..........
Most articles show it to be at 60-70% of your 'Max', so assuming my Max is 165 (220-55), my Fat Burning Zone would be between 100 - 115. Thats what the Wahoo App 'auto calculates for me too.
Even if its 175 Max, thats still between 105- 122, which I'm in.

I think 140 HR puts me way higher up the Zones, in an area where I arent going to be burning Fat as Primary Fuel, or so it says here
http://blog.myfitnesspal.com/how-target-your-heart-rate-get-into-the-fat-burning-zone/

In all honesty, its my Average thats between 117-123, but bearing in mind I'm warming up, building up, and finishing high, there's perhaps 30mins of my Hour session that are up at 135/145 anyway, so I'm perhaps doing a good combination of Burn & Burst training,.......Hopefully !


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## screenman (13 Apr 2018)

Forget that 220 rubbish. Go get your MHR tested it you are going to use zones seriously. To answer why you are not losing fat, you are eating too much.


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## nickAKA (13 Apr 2018)

Alan O said:


> That gives you a great target - to enjoy celebrating _her_ 40th!



If I get to see that I'll be more than happy!


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## nickAKA (13 Apr 2018)

zak3737 said:


> Thx - appreciate the thoughts.
> My only query is exactly where the 'Fat Burning Zone is/should be then..........
> Most articles show it to be at 60-70% of your 'Max', so assuming my Max is 165 (220-55), my Fat Burning Zone would be between 100 - 115. Thats what the Wahoo App 'auto calculates for me too.
> Even if its 175 Max, thats still between 105- 122, which I'm in.
> ...



You would probably benefit from some 1-to-1 advice on the HR given your medical concerns, we've all got our own opinions & anecdotes but none of us are experts on you obviously... My HR is normally average 140 on an hour long effort which includes some warm up, sweet spot at about 140, FTP at 150-155 and big efforts over threshold 160+ so a mixture but not much coasting in there.
It's all academic of course, it works for me but that's doesn't mean it will work for you - get some expert advice but try and adjust your diet too for a couple of weeks. If it works, you've cracked it and you know what to do.


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## The Jogger (13 Apr 2018)

Personally I think you need to eat a High Fat Low Carb diet to lose weight and better health but if you think training is the key for fàt loss then this is an interesting read about the Maf Method.

https://philmaffetone.com/what-is-maf/


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## PaulSB (13 Apr 2018)

screenman said:


> Forget that 220 rubbish. Go get your MHR tested it you are going to use zones seriously. To answer why you are not losing fat, you are eating too much.



I cannot fathom why people don’t understand this. I know so many in real life, fellow club cyclists, who can’t get to grips with it. One recently retired friend has joined the local gym along with his wife. We are talking just short of £2k per annum - has it made a difference? No.

Diet, diet, diet. No starving just understand the impact of good and bad food then cut out the bad. Simple and cost effective.


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## The Jogger (13 Apr 2018)

User said:


> "Dr" Maffetone = quack.
> MAF = marketing gimmick for useless supplements.



Well, I can't argue with that, I'll take your word for it but the HFLC science is far more convincing health wise than the low fat rubbish.


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## Alan O (13 Apr 2018)

Just a few thoughts on high-fat-low-carb eating, and other stories...

I'm not going to knock HFLC, as I know it can work - I know people who have been doing very well with that approach for years. At the same time, I don't think I'd generally recommend it, but only in the sense that I would not recommend any specific "_high this, low that, specific food group_" diet as a substitute for understanding basic nutrition.

As an aside, I read an opinion piece recently that suggested the reason for the success of HFLC diets is twofold. One is that they are easy to follow... How many Greggs Tuna Crunch baguettes can I have today? None! None is a much easier number to stick to than a calorie-counting number. The suggestion was slightly flippant, but I think there's merit in it. The other mooted reason is that HFLC is so boring you just don't want to eat more!

On another subject, a minor bugbear of mind is the "_calories in < calories out = weight loss_" argument, purely because it generates so much unneeded controversy. People who tell you it's wrong are essentially wrong (but in terms of how to apply it practically, they're often right).

The conservation of energy/mass principle would have to be violated for it to be wrong, and that's not going to happen.

The problem is that there are all sorts of subtleties in its actual application as a way to lose weight. If you spend a week eating fewer calories than you burn, will you lose _weight_ that week? Maybe, maybe not. You'll lose some of your body's energy stores for sure, essentially fat, but you might retain water and perhaps even gain weight. The weight-loss plateau is real, and expecting a steady weight loss per week is what is wrong with applying the approach without fully understanding it.

Expecting a steady rate of weight loss for a steady calorie deficit is a mistake, and it can be demotivating to see weight loss becoming harder in the short term.

But in the long term, if your calorie input is lower than your calorie output, you _will_ lose energy-store mass. If anyone claims otherwise, ask them to submit a paper to Nature (or wherever) explaining how they have overturned a fundamental law of physics - there's potentially a Nobel prize waiting for them.

While I'm on bugbears, how about the "_exercise is for fitness, diet is for weight loss_" thing? I think that is so so wrong in its very approach, as it is trying to compartmentalize human physiology when it is more of a holistic thing.

I've struggled to lose weight for years, and I've really only been achieving any success since I've been back to cycling and exercising at the gym. You want to tell me it doesn't work? I spit on your foot!

Again (as with the cals in minus cals out thing) I think we're looking at a tension between the pure physics and seeing the entire psychological whole that we are.

Sure, a couple of hours hard work at the gym might be no match for just not eating a Mars bar. But what if I'm already not eating the Mars bar? What if my hard work at the gym makes me feel so good that it boosts my motivation to not eat a Mars bar (or any other kind of empty calories)? I regularly have days when I burn up 4,000 kcals or more through exercise, and I simply can not physically eat that amount. Is it exercise or reduced diet that's doing it for me?

It's both, and it's just as bogus to try to separate diet and exercise as it is to separate Ant and... well maybe not that at the moment.


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## The Jogger (13 Apr 2018)

Alan O, you are certainly entitled to your opinion but that is all it is, no papers provided egg. We've had the hflc argument on here many times , so I won't go down that road again but there is lots of evidence it is the healthy way to go and also good for losing weight, so I am happy to agree to disagree.


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## Alan O (13 Apr 2018)

The Jogger said:


> Alan O, you are certainly entitled to your opinion but that is all it is, no papers provided egg. We've had the hflc argument on here many times , so I won't go down that road again but there is lots of evidence it is the healthy way to go and also good for losing weight, so I am happy to agree to disagree.


Oh, I'm not knocking it - as I said, I know people who have been doing very well with that approach for years. I just don't agree with it as a "one size fits all" recommendation as a magic formula.


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## Heltor Chasca (13 Apr 2018)

Hi @zak3737 I started with TR on my Kickr Snap a little later than you. I’m shorter and lighter. In a fairly short time I lost fat but built muscle up so my weight actually went up a bit. It is only now, about 4 months later, that I am losing mass which I assume is the long term fat loss. I am also going through a stressful patch which makes me loose weight.

I listened to a great TR podcast where the head coach spoke of programmes for people where crash weight loss was dangerous and also resulted in loss of power (FTP) He also said it was not unusual for these weight loss schedules to be spread over 3 years. 3 years! It’s serious business and not to be treated lightly. He is the same coach that goes by the mantra, ‘Ounces are lost on the bike, but pounds are lost in the kitchen.’


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## screenman (13 Apr 2018)

I really do not see this build muscle thing, maybe thighs getting a little tighter but you have to burn off one hell of a lot of calories to build a pound of muscle. You only have to google it to see the myth behind it.

Get your fat content measured, you may be properly suprised.


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## ColinJ (13 Apr 2018)

Heltor Chasca said:


> He is the same coach that goes by the mantra, ‘Ounces are lost on the bike, but pounds are lost on the bike.’


Is that a joke about spending money on expensive bikes and expecting to automatically lose lots of weight, or should there be an '_off_' in there somewhere!


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## Heltor Chasca (13 Apr 2018)

ColinJ said:


> Is that a joke about spending money on expensive bikes and expecting to automatically lose lots of weight, or should there be an '_off_' in there somewhere!



I fluffed that good and proper! It should read ‘He is the same coach that goes by the mantra, ‘Ounces are lost on the bike, but pounds are lost in the kitchen.’


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## ColinJ (13 Apr 2018)

Heltor Chasca said:


> I fluffed that good and proper! It should read ‘He is the same coach that goes by the mantra, ‘Ounces are lost on the bike, but pounds are lost in the kitchen.’


That makes a _LOT _more sense!


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## screenman (13 Apr 2018)

Cheaper to lose a lb off of the body than a lb off of the bike.


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## Heltor Chasca (13 Apr 2018)

screenman said:


> Cheaper to lose a lb off of the body than a lb off of the bike.



In reference to the TR coach’s quote above: He means we loose more of our excess by being more careful what we eat and can only expect marginal gains through exercise.

But you are right: the lighter we are, the more economic on the wallet. Weight savings on the bike cost silly money. Certainly stuff I can’t afford.


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## screenman (13 Apr 2018)

Heltor Chasca said:


> In reference to the TR coach’s quote above: He means we loose more of our excess by being more careful what we eat and can only expect marginal gains through exercise.
> 
> But you are right: the lighter we are, the more economic on the wallet. Weight savings on the bike cost silly money. Certainly stuff I can’t afford.



You cannot outrun a bad diet.


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## Ming the Merciless (13 Apr 2018)

screenman said:


> You cannot outrun a bad diet.



I can, bad diets are really bad runners


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## keithmac (13 Apr 2018)

For me when I decided to loose two and a half stone it was done by portion control and cutting out snacks, no fancy fad diets.

I aim to get a 3rd on Protein Carbs and Fat, seems the best way for me.

I did try cutting Carbs once and felt washed out and dizzy at work, so a no go.

Chicken based meals seem to be the best kcal per fullness ratio!.


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## keithmac (13 Apr 2018)

Breakfast is also the enemy for me, if I eat breakfast I'm hungry all day!.

Tried it again last week (porridge) and proved it once and for all..


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## screenman (13 Apr 2018)

keithmac said:


> Breakfast is also the enemy for me, if I eat breakfast I'm hungry all day!.
> 
> Tried it again last week (porridge) and proved it once and for all..



I am the same.


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## ColinJ (13 Apr 2018)

keithmac said:


> Breakfast is also the enemy for me, if I eat breakfast I'm hungry all day!.
> 
> Tried it again last week (porridge) and proved it once and for all..





screenman said:


> I am the same.


Very strange - if I eat a decent bowl of porridge in the morning, I can easily go until 10 pm without eating again. (Assuming that I am cycling less than 30 hilly miles that day.)


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## keithmac (13 Apr 2018)

ColinJ said:


> Very strange - if I eat a decent bowl of porridge in the morning, I can easily go until 10 pm without eating again. (Assuming that I am cycling less than 30 hilly miles that day.)



I had to crack open my emergency Pot Noodle at 11 am at work, had no choice!.


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## Milzy (13 Apr 2018)

ColinJ said:


> Very strange - if I eat a decent bowl of porridge in the morning, I can easily go until 10 pm without eating again. (Assuming that I am cycling less than 30 hilly miles that day.)


Meeeee tooooo!!


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## ColinJ (13 Apr 2018)

I'm assuming that @keithmac and @screenman are talking about a PROPER big bowl of porridge, not just a little sachet of Oat So Simple (whatever)? 

I typically make my porridge from a 250 mL scoop of rolled oats, 250 mL of semi-skimmed milk, and 350 mL of water. I add raisins, mixed seeds, chopped grapes and/or strawberries, and slice a banana on top. Plenty there to keep me going all day!


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## keithmac (13 Apr 2018)

It was a full bowl full, must be down to genetics or something!.

Just not built for breakfast, a cup of tea can put me on 'till dinnertime..


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## screenman (14 Apr 2018)

Full bowl.


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## Milzy (14 Apr 2018)

All I know is if a women splits up from a long term partner they’ll easily lose 3 stone in 10 weeks.


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## zak3737 (14 Apr 2018)

This 5:2 Fasting is the way to go for me, I find constant 'cutting out' is just too problematic and bound to fail, - for me.

Yesterday, I didnt eat all day, and only had 2 coffee's and 1 Tea, plus water, did an hour on the TT at 5.30, a good hour, felt great, and then cooked Chicken with Vegetables and rice for the family, followed by a Yoghurt. Simples. Nothing else.

Doing that twice a week will work for me, and the rest of the week I know my food intake isnt that bad at all, treats included.


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## ColinJ (14 Apr 2018)

Milzy said:


> All I know is if a women splits up from a long term partner they’ll easily lose 3 stone in 10 weeks.


After my long term girlfriend split from me, she didn't lose an ounce! ***




_I lost 3 stone in 10 weeks, however! 


_
*** PS She didn't have even 3 pounds of surplus fat on her anyway, let alone 3 stone. I had about 2 stone spare so I ended up about a stone underweight. (Scrawny, scrawny, scrawny. I looked terrible, but at least I could then cycle up Yorkshire hills pretty quickly!)


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## Globalti (16 Apr 2018)

Cut your evening meal in half especially the carbs then eat the second half a few nights later. After dinner go up and floss and clean your teeth, which will help you to avoid the temptation to snack before bed. Oh, and cut out beer; not only does it contain calories but the alcohol suppresses testosterone.


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## Alan O (16 Apr 2018)

Globalti said:


> Oh, and cut out beer; not only does it contain calories but the alcohol suppresses testosterone.


That's why I drink it!


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## keithmac (16 Apr 2018)

Globalti said:


> Cut your evening meal in half especially the carbs then eat the second half a few nights later. After dinner go up and floss and clean your teeth, which will help you to avoid the temptation to snack before bed. Oh, and cut out beer; not only does it contain calories but the alcohol suppresses testosterone.



My body must be wired wrong then as it's the complete opposite for me!.


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## Crankarm (17 Apr 2018)

Are you one of those Secret Eaters?


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## Globalti (17 Apr 2018)

Alcohol suppresses testosterone, which allows the female hormones naturally present in the male body to predominate, which is why we grow moobs in our fifties.


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