# How to deal with dogs? Or has this guy got issues?



## Cyclopathic (11 Feb 2012)

I was reading "Richards Bicycle Book" by Richard Ballantine when I was dismayed, amused and alarmed in various measures to find the following passage in which Ballantine advises cyclists on how to deal with an unwelcome encounter with a dog. Those of a nervouse disposition might want to skip this.

"If the dog attacks: one defense is aerosol pepper sprays made for this purpose. They have a range of about ten feet and are light enough to clip to your handlebars. A water pistol loaded with a water-amonia solution will also work but is a good deal less convenient. If you have neither of these and can't or won't climb a tree get a stick or a large rock. No? The bicycle pump. Try to ram it down his throat. In any event, don't cower or cover up, because the dog will only chew you to ribbons. _Attack_. Any small dog can simply be hoisted up by the legs and his brains dashed out. With a big dog you are fighting for your life. If you are weaponless try to tangle him up in your bike and then strangle him. Kicks to the genitals and which break ribs are effective. If you have got a pump or a stick hold it at both ends and offer it up to the dog horizontally. Often the dog will bit the stick/pump and hang on. Immediately lift the dog up and deliver a very solid kick to the gemitals. Follow up with breaking the dogs ribs or crushing its head with a rock. If worst comes to worst ram your entire arm down its throat. He will choke and die. Better your arm than your throat."

The rest of the book is a fairly sober afair dealing with bike maitanence but this section jumped out at me not just because of the incredible level of violence it talks about but because of the many disturbing questions it raises, like how does he know all this and what must have happened to him to make him so utterly bonkers. I assure you I have changed nothing in the passage and that is how it apears in the book. I just wondered if other people would think it as insane as I did/


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## gaz (11 Feb 2012)

I've had a dog come after me before, terrifying experience and one that has made me wary of any dog.
At the time I got of my bike and put it between me and the dog.


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## HovR (11 Feb 2012)

Did you proceed to tangle him up in the bike and strangle him with it? 

In all seriousness.. I suppose this advice would work if it really came to that, but it seems extremely out of place in a book self labeled as "A manual of bicycle maintenance and enjoyment."


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## palinurus (11 Feb 2012)

More shocking than I remembered it being- but yes, that advice did rather stand out when I read it.


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## Cyclopathic (11 Feb 2012)

gaz said:


> I've had a dog come after me before, terrifying experience and one that has made me wary of any dog.
> At the time I got of my bike and put it between me and the dog.


This seems like the best thing to do and probably the most intuative and obvious. I would hope that one could keep a dog at bay for as long as needed with judicious fending with a bike. I reckon it's the tactic I'd try and employ.


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## Cyclopathic (11 Feb 2012)

HovR said:


> Did you proceed to tangle him up in the bike and strangle him with it?
> 
> In all seriousness.. I suppose this advice would work if it really came to that, but it seems extremely out of place in a book self labeled as "A manual of bicycle maintenance and enjoyment."


 
I've no doubt that some of these things might work but I think that it could be dangerous advice to try and follow. The chances of getting it wrong seem to be quite high and a mistake could cost you dearly. People aren't generaly practiced in the ways of dog dispatching so I think keep it as simple as possible would be the best advice.


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## yello (11 Feb 2012)

I think you'd have to be pretty darned unfortunate to meet a dog that required quite that level of aggressive response. It sounds overboard to me but then maybe he is painting a worst case scenario.... wild pack dogs in East Africa or something.

Personally speaking, whilst I have encountered a number of barking, snarling dogs over the years (I delivered newspapers as a kid) I have never been frightened for my life nor needed to resort to aggression. The only dog that has ever bitten me (apart from my own when playing!) was one that wandered up to me all docile like! No reason for me to even suspect he was about to take a bite!

Ime, dogs only need to be shouted at at worst. Most of the time, despite sound and spittle, they're only defending their territory and will retreat once when you've passed.


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## ColinJ (11 Feb 2012)

I think the relevant part is _*"If the dog attacks"*_! Ballantine wasn't talking about being barked at, or having a snappy dog running alongside him. 

Generally speaking, I like dogs, but if a vicious one launches a serious attack on me or my loved ones then I would use whatever means I considered necessary in defence, including the techniques listed, as I would against a human assailant. What are you going to do - ask the dog nicely to let go of your friend's face?

It isn't a pleasant passage to read, but have a think about it ... Yesterday, I was advising people to practise chain repairs at home in the warm and dry so they would know what to do if they broke a chain during a ride. The same applies to self-defence. I would rather have a good idea of what to do _before_ being attacked by a dog, rather than trying to make it up during the stress of an attack.

I know someone who killed a German Shepherd dog in self-defence. If it comes down to a stark choice between a dog or a human then the dog has to be dealt with. I'd feel sorry for the dog, but the dog's owner would be the one at fault, not the person defending themself.


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## Crackle (11 Feb 2012)

You must have the original version there, later versions had a new section glued in before the next reprint.


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## HovR (11 Feb 2012)

Cyclopathic said:


> I've no doubt that some of these things might work but I think that it could be dangerous advice to try and follow. The chances of getting it wrong seem to be quite high and a mistake could cost you dearly. People aren't generaly practiced in the ways of dog dispatching so I think keep it as simple as possible would be the best advice.


 
I agree with you there. I think I'd rather try to escape from the dog if possible - Climb a tree, jump a fence, into a building etc.


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## MontyVeda (11 Feb 2012)

i dont think he's being altogether serious in that passage... surely it's written to entertain rather than educate.


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## Cyclopathic (11 Feb 2012)

[QUOTE 1719448, member: 9609"]Sadly there are people out there who take a great delight in killing and hurting animals, and I guess so much the better if that animal happens to be someone's pet. Cyclist should also be aware how important and loved dogs are to their owners, and any act of violence towards their dog may be rapidly repaid.[/quote]

I would like to stress that Mr Balantines approach to this is not mine. I agree with HovR when he says the best thing is to get away asap. Going at a dog in the way Ballantine describes is only likely to make things worse in my opinion. And I think he might be a bit mental.


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## Cyclopathic (11 Feb 2012)

MontyVeda said:


> i dont think he's being altogether serious in that passage... surely it's written to entertain rather than educate.


 
I've read the book and the bits before and after this passage and I can assure you taht it doesn't come accross as tongue in cheek. Unless it is the dogs tongue which he has just removed whilst his hand was down its throat and he is now gnawing on it in some macabre sort of victory ritual. It doesn't read like a peice of satire.


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## Cyclopathic (11 Feb 2012)

Crackle said:


> You must have the original version there, later versions had a new section glued in before the next reprint.


 
Really, to what end? Did they change this bit or something?


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## wheres_my_beard (11 Feb 2012)

Cyclopathic said:


> ... what must have happened to him to make him so utterly bonkers.


 
I don't think he's saying that if a dog barks at you or sniffs your crotch for too long you should smash the life out of it. 

Take a quick look at image search results for "dog attack" and you'll feel even more sobered as to what could happen to you or others if you don't have a clue how to deal with a dog when it's seeing red.

I'm sure it sounds brutal and inhumane, but the dog is hardly thinking of puppies and warm beds when it's trying to tear the skin from your face and neck.

I am by no means condoning violence against animals, but in your flight or fight moment, a dog is likely to be able outrun you, and we're are not really cut out for defending ourselves from animal attacks, unless we have thought about how we can cope beforehand, should the worst happen.

Forewarned is forearmed as they say. It's better to know what to do, and never have to do it, than be left defenseless and vulnerable.


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## MontyVeda (11 Feb 2012)

Cyclopathic said:


> I've read the book and the bits before and after this passage and I can assure you taht it doesn't come accross as tongue in cheek. Unless it is the dogs tongue which he has just removed whilst his hand was down its throat and he is now gnawing on it in some macabre sort of victory ritual. It doesn't read like a peice of satire.


well I can't explain why you don't 'get it'... i certainly do.


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## Cyclopathic (11 Feb 2012)

ColinJ said:


> I think the relevant part is _*"If the dog attacks"*_! Ballantine wasn't talking about being barked at, or having a snappy dog running alongside him.
> 
> Generally speaking, I like dogs, but if a vicious one launches a serious attack on me or my loved ones then I would use whatever means I considered necessary in defence, including the techniques listed, as I would against a human assailant. What are you going to do - ask the dog nicely to let go of your friend's face?
> 
> ...


 
I do see your point but I don't think that the advice in the passage in any way really prepares a person to do the things described and might cause someone to suffer serious injuries if they tried something described and got it wrong, rather than just keeping it as simple as possible and fending the dog off with your bike. It's just too extreme and too reliant on a certain amount of physical confidence and competancy in an area that I doubt many of us are profficient in.


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## Cyclopathic (11 Feb 2012)

MontyVeda said:


> well I can't explain why you don't 'get it'... i certainly do.


 To be honest I laughed a lot when I read this. It's one of the funniest things I've seen in a book fior a long while but I am sure that this was not the intention behind it. Not everything is written as a piece of post modern comedy designed for us to think ourselves terribly clever because we understand the way it subverts our expectations. Some stuff is just written as it seems to be.


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## PpPete (11 Feb 2012)

Can't find my more recent version - but I remember that passage in the original.

Don't get me wrong, I've always loved dogs and never been scared of them, but a little while ago on a group ride my daughter (then 14) was bitten by a German Shepherd from a farm we were passing (on the public road). The farmer seemed to think it was our fault for riding in a large group! My daughter was fortunate that the bite was not serious.... the dog and it's owner are even more fortunate that I was some miles behind having been attending to a mechanical. If i'd been there at the time, I would have tried to take one or other of them apart....


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## MontyVeda (11 Feb 2012)

it reminds me of a section in a survival handbook where they advise the only way to deal with a grizzly bear is by _using a Magnum 45, but make sure you file off the sight on the end of the barrel, that way it doesn't hurt so much when the bear rams it up your arse_. The rest of the book is in no way satirical, but that sentence is.


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## Cyclopathic (11 Feb 2012)

wheres_my_beard said:


> I don't think he's saying that if a dog barks at you or sniffs your crotch for too long you should smash the life out of it.
> 
> Take a quick look at image search results for "dog attack" and you'll feel even more sobered as to what could happen to you or others if you don't have a clue how to deal with a dog when it's seeing red.
> 
> ...


 
I have no doubt that doing a search for "dog attacks" will produce some very sobering images but these will be very far from most peoples actual experience and will concentrate on the most horrific and graphic portrayals that it has been possible to obtain. Also as I have said before the words in this passage do not do anything whatsoever to really prepare a person for being attacked and without some very clear teaching and instruction and practice are not likely to be of the slightest use to anyone. Going at a dog because you read a few sentances on how best to do it in a bike maitanence book sounds about as ill informed as that passage sounds crazy. Simply reading how to be a ninja dog exterminator doesn't make you into one.


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## Cyclopathic (11 Feb 2012)

MontyVeda said:


> it reminds me of a section in a survival handbook where they advise the only way to deal with a grizzly bear is by _using a Magnum 45, but make sure you file off the sight on the end of the barrel, that way it doesn't hurt so much when the bear rams it up your arse_. The rest of the book is in no way satirical, but that sentence is.


 Nevertheless, this is not.


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## Cyclopathic (11 Feb 2012)

PpPete said:


> Can't find my more recent version - but I remember that passage in the original.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I've always loved dogs and never been scared of them, but a little while ago on a group ride my daughter (then 14) was bitten by a German Shepherd from a farm we were passing (on the public road). The farmer seemed to think it was our fault for riding in a large group! My daughter was fortunate that the bite was not serious.... the dog and it's owner are even more fortunate that I was some miles behind having been attending to a mechanical. If i'd been there at the time, I would have tried to take one or other of them apart....


 
I agree. I too love dogs and I too would do absolutely anything I could to stop an attack on a friend or family member (or anyone really) My point really is about the incongruity of such a violent passage in a bike maitanence book and perhaps the more serious point that following the advice could perhaps be more dangerous than not if one is not too confident.


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## MacB (11 Feb 2012)

Cyclopathic said:


> I agree. I too love dogs and I too would do absolutely anything I could to stop an attack on a friend or family member (or anyone really) My point really is about the incongruity of such a violent passage in a bike maitanence book and perhaps the more serious point that following the advice could perhaps be more dangerous than not if one is not too confident.


 
But that's no different to any self defence type advice, you use judgement.


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## PpPete (11 Feb 2012)

I'll agree the passage is somewhat incongruous in what is essentially a bike maintenance handbook (albeit now a very dated one).... nevertheless, I think his advice on dealing with a dog attack is good. Fending a dog off with your bike is only any good if the owner comes along to call it off before your arms get tired. Running will get you nowhere. If you are on your bike and have a reasonable head start you might be able to ride away quick enough. Otherwise the best course of action is to attack with 100% conviction. Having some strategies (as described in the book) is only going to re-inforce your conviction - and thereby increase the chances of the dog turning tail and running long before you do it any damage.


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## Cyclopathic (11 Feb 2012)

MacB said:


> But that's no different to any self defence type advice, you use judgement.


 Yes, I know. The potential danger as I see it is that Ballantines advice could possibly cloud a persons judgement and give them confidence that may not be entirely warranted. I stress possibly. Mostly though, as I've said, it just struck me as a wierd and rather graphic thing to find in amoungst wheel trueing and saddle positioning.
It's the incongruity that i wanted to share really rather than the merits or otherwise of the advice itself. It just so happens that I find the advice a little bit questionable.


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## Nantmor (11 Feb 2012)

Richard Ballantine is a Septic, and I have heard that some people in that country feel the need to keep a savage dog, especially in isolated rural areas, to repel intruders.
If I remember correctly, in a part of this advice not quoted above, he encourages the reader to remember that an adult human is a fairly formidable animal so that one should not be overcome by fear, but radiate aggression and give out the impression that any dog who tackles this human will regret it for the rest of its life (which may not be long). Equipping a cyclist with the knowledge of how to tackle a dog, and the self belief to do so vigorously, is a good way to help him/her give out the body language which can deter a vicious dog. Its often said that animals can sense fear, so this advice may well help one to stay unbitten without harm to the bloody dog.
I wonder if anyone, cyclist or not, has ever used Ballantine's attack stategy. I would doubt it.
I've sometimes had run-ins with dogs which chase bikes. I find going on the attack sometimes is the best tactic. I should add that so far this has only amounted to a charge with warcry.


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## MontyVeda (11 Feb 2012)

solved: just wedge a doggy chew in your back spokes*...

The dog will see you on your bike and chase you, possibly simultaneously barking.

The dog will then get a sniff of the irresistible doggy chew in your back wheel and, seeing as it's irresistible, will instinctively go for it.

The dog's face will then get churned up in your spokes and the 'attack' is over before it's even started.

*Aerodynamic spokes can be sharpened for added effect.


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## wheres_my_beard (11 Feb 2012)

Cyclopathic said:


> Yes, I know. The potential danger as I see it is that Ballantines advice could possibly cloud a persons judgement and give them confidence that may not be entirely warranted. I stress possibly. Mostly though, as I've said, it just struck me as a wierd and rather graphic thing to find in amoungst wheel trueing and saddle positioning.
> *It's the incongruity that i wanted to share really* rather than the merits or otherwise of the advice itself. It just so happens that I find the advice a little bit questionable.


 
I can't think of any other type of book that would be an appropriate place to give this information directly to cyclists.


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## Cyclopathic (11 Feb 2012)

MontyVeda said:


> solved: just wedge a doggy chew in your back spokes*...
> 
> The dog will see you on your bike and chase you, possibly simultaneously barking.
> 
> ...


 
I think you have solved the whole thing.


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## SpokeyDokey (11 Feb 2012)

Oh dear - this is turning into another tedious cyclist vs dog thread.

What is it with some cyclists? They don't like motorists, they don't like horse riders, they don't like dogs, all of whom seem to infringe upon their virtuous lives - where's the common denominator there then?


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## wheres_my_beard (11 Feb 2012)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Oh dear - this is turning into another tedious cyclist vs dog thread.
> 
> What is it with some cyclists? They don't like motorists, they don't like horse riders, they don't like dogs, all of whom seem to infringe upon their virtuous lives - where's the common denominator there then?


 
I'm sure that some cyclists do like motorists, horse riders and dogs. This is about the appropriateness of advice given to cyclists dealing with being attacked by dogs; no one is having a go at dogs in general.


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## growingvegetables (11 Feb 2012)

[QUOTE 1719548, member: 9609"]And another point, these fighting type dogs that potentionally could do you some serious damage are often accompanied by moronic thugs who probably have a lower IQ than the dog, he/they will undoubtably join in on the side of the dog.
[/quote]

Aye - that was my first thought!


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## Cyclopathic (11 Feb 2012)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Oh dear - this is turning into another tedious cyclist vs dog thread.
> 
> What is it with some cyclists? They don't like motorists, they don't like horse riders, they don't like dogs, all of whom seem to infringe upon their virtuous lives - where's the common denominator there then?


 All those other bastards!!!


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## MacB (11 Feb 2012)

Folks you need to read some of the US forums on cycling kit...discussions on whether it's best to have the gun frame mounted or in a holster, how big a knife to carry, pepper spray, tasers, etc, etc.

Bear(excuse that pun) in mind that not all advice will be applicable to all locations and circumstances.


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## Crackle (11 Feb 2012)

Cyclopathic said:


> Really, to what end? Did they change this bit or something?


 
Yes they did, it was toned down quite a bit. If my memory serves, that's the original passage and they took out most of the ball kicking, arm down throat stuff.

Richard's bicycle book was a seminal read for me, it catapulted me from clueless amateur to clued amateur. On a ride with my cousin he took the advice of putting a bike between him and a dog. He got it a bit wrong though as I think the passage meant to stop the bike before he got off. We picked him up and dusted him down.


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## MacB (11 Feb 2012)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Oh dear - this is turning into another tedious cyclist vs dog thread.
> 
> What is it with some cyclists? They don't like motorists, they don't like horse riders, they don't like dogs, all of whom seem to infringe upon their virtuous lives - where's the common denominator there then?


 
Bullpuckey, if I'm on a public highway I should be able to proceed without being bothered, let alone attacked, by a dog. I don't give a stuff how friendly they are, how my fear may be the problem, or how 'it's never done that before'. If you haven't got it on a lead, and it bothers me, it's fair game.

If you don't like that then look after your dog like you're meant to.


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## yello (11 Feb 2012)

So really this information is as relevant to the general public as it is to cyclists?

Personally, as 'correct' as the advice might be, I do think it out of place. Sure cyclists do perhaps have more interactions with dogs than other folk but the type of dog were talking about here is just as likely to attack a walker as a cyclist. Its not the usual type of dog that yaps and chases us. The author might as well include a section on dealing with serial killers, or swarming bees.

So, yes, I think the author does perhaps 'have issues', as the OP asks. Perhaps an over-reaction to an incident they have experienced?


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## semislickstick (11 Feb 2012)

What about the book itself? Can you use it to bore the dog to death?


Is it a Hard back?


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## SpokeyDokey (11 Feb 2012)

MacB said:


> Bullpuckey, if I'm on a public highway I should be able to proceed without being bothered, let alone attacked, by a dog. I don't give a stuff how friendly they are, how my fear may be the problem, or how 'it's never done that before'. If you haven't got it on a lead, and it bothers me, it's fair game.
> 
> If you don't like that then look after your dog like you're meant to.


 
I'm really not sure what that has got to do with what I said.


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## MacB (11 Feb 2012)

SpokeyDokey said:


> I'm really not sure what that has got to do with what I said.


 
True but then you're underestimating my ability to read between the lines and add 2 and 2 together to get 13


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## SpokeyDokey (11 Feb 2012)

MacB said:


> True but then you're underestimating my ability to read between the lines and add 2 and 2 together to get 13


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## Crackle (11 Feb 2012)

[QUOTE 1719789, member: 9609"]Lets just get this correct - if you are "being bothered" by a dog it is fair game to dispose of in what ever violent method you choose?[/quote]

You've got to remember, 8 months of the year he spends building bikes, two months selling them again and the remaining two months leaves him too slow to catch an errant dog anyway. So even if you had a specially trained MacB dog, it wouldn't have a chance to earn it's Winalot.


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## MacB (11 Feb 2012)

Crackle said:


> You've got to remember, 8 months of the year he spends building bikes, two months selling them again and the remaining two months leaves him too slow to catch an errant dog anyway. So even if you had a specially trained MacB dog, it wouldn't have a chance to earn it's Winalot.


 
Harsh but fair, harsh but fair


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## MacB (11 Feb 2012)

[QUOTE 1719789, member: 9609"]Lets just get this correct - if you are "being bothered" by a dog it is fair game to dispose of in what ever violent method you choose?[/quote]

It's a question of perceived threat and threat response - it doesn't matter what you say there are people that will see dogs as threatening. There are also people that would rather stop a potential threat in its tracks than wait and see how it develops. No, I probably wouldn't, but I'd defend the rights of someone to do so. If, however, I was actually bitten then all bets are off.

Again, if you control your dog as you should then the situation never arises.


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## ufkacbln (11 Feb 2012)

Cycling Forums in the US have a thread that deals with dogs (and the owners)

How many of you carry a gun as part ofyour cycling equipment?



> My current choice is a Kel-Tec P3-AT. 10 ounces loaded, locked breech, recoil operated semi-auto with a 6 round magazine. Its good enough in my hands for "velo-dog" use (small revolvers traditionally carried by cyclinsts in the early 1900's) but being .380, adequate for self-defense when loaded with +P Cor Bons. A spare magazine is only an additional 3 ounces. For the weight of a small water bottle, I have adequate defense. I have yet to use it and my cycling partners don't know I carry.


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## brokenflipflop (11 Feb 2012)

We can't upset horses and horse riders and it's not the horse riders fault if their unpredictable beast does something unpredictable should a cyclist burp loudly within 30 feet of the beast yet woe betide a dog owner who doesn't control his dog. Double standards or what ? (and a horse is a bit bigger too)


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## GrumpyGregry (11 Feb 2012)

palinurus said:


> More shocking than I remembered it being- but yes, that advice did rather stand out when I read it.


I only read that bit this week. Shocking but more than a little understandable I feel.


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## MacB (11 Feb 2012)

[QUOTE 1719924, member: 9609"]Therefore you would be the first to defend my right in deploying "cycle to van missiles" and use them on site of any white van,4x4, or any other road user I don't like the look of that gets within a 100m.

I guess there would be a long debate on what quantifies a dog under control, there are extremists out there who believe they should never be off a lead.[/quote]

What????? utter bilge, you have a dog off a lead and it approaches someone that is terrified of dogs and they lash out....it's your fault...end of. Your pet is just that, yours, and the responsiblity for not inflicting it on others lies with you.


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## GrumpyGregry (11 Feb 2012)

Gentle reminder to all dog lovers/owners that, iirc, the law requires you to keep them under control in public places in E & W. Courts have established plenty of precedent as to what under control means. ime 90% of the dogs in SE England take not one blind bit of notice of their owners.

Your dog bothers me, or someone I care about or someone I judge to vulnerable, I'll bother your dog (and you if I have to), and I'll be the judge of what an appropriate response will be. Only this morning in Horsham Park I saw.... (no can't be bother to type it all up)

People's personal safety trumps your pets 'rights' every time.


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## GrumpyGregry (11 Feb 2012)

[QUOTE 1720026, member: 9609"]And would this extreme view of yours even apply if the dog was *not being remotely threatening*?[/quote]
"He's never done that before."
"He was only being friendly."
"Your son must have scared him."

Those words have never ever been uttered by a dog owner before have they...

... and for the record I'm a dog lover. I just am not that keen on most of the owners.


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## Fab Foodie (11 Feb 2012)

Fcuk this is a depressing thread.
Yes I have the original version of the book too. I'm sure he's talking about what you can do in an extreme circumstances rather than cyclist-related dog genocide. There are some dogs that are frickin powerful and just IF you caught in the middle of nowhere it could be useful to know what you MIGHT be able to do.

On the wider subjects of dogs et al, I posted this a few weeeks ago and a repeat in this thread seems apt:


I'm pretty new to Dog ownership, (though I grew-up in a house-full of them).
I've 40 odd years of cycling behind me.
I've also raised 3 kids.

And here's the thing ... in a perfect world, nobody would get in the way, or intefere, or annoy or inconvenience another soul on the planet with their or their charges behaviour. But life's not perfect, people are not perfect, dogs are not perfect, kids are not perfect a little bit of 'live and let live' goes a long way. none of us set-out to annoy or inconvenience.

I'm sure my kids have annoyed others, I'm certain my cycling has annoyed others (mostly drivers!) and I know even after a few weeks of Dog ownership, we've managed to annoy one or two. He's young and a sighthound, so he'll see something appealing and race-off to greet them, sometimes he comes back when called, sometimes I catch him before he goes, sometimes he encouters someone who's happy to meet him and sometimes somebody who is scared or dislikes dogs or doesn't want a muddy footprint. Most people are tolerant, a few are not. I can understand that, but none of this is out of malice. We're training, learning, trying to enjoy our hobby, sharing the outdoor space, not aiming for conflict.

I've had 1 jogger and 1 cyclist take umbridge. The cyclist came barreling down a cinder path through the park, (it matters not what kind of designated path it is) I had stopped chatting to 2 teenage girls walking the opposite direction with an older Whippet. Dogs were on leads. The cyclist swerved tightly around us at full tilt shouting 'zarking dog walkers' and sped off. Totally needless.
So there are wnakers everywhere, some walk dogs, some ride bikes, some have annoying kids. Sometimes we come together unexpectedly and it's beholden on us all to make the best of the different circumstances when that happens. Personally I always slow right down on shared paths especially where there are young kids or dogs running around, it's just common sense. If I want to ride fast, I use roads, that what they're there for.

On the subjecy of dog shoot, like any form of littering, it's indefensible and a pox on those who don't clear up after.

Steady as you go. ​


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## MacB (11 Feb 2012)

[QUOTE 1720026, member: 9609"]And would this extreme view of yours even apply if the dog was not being remotely threatening?[/quote]

What's extreme about it? I happen to like dogs and don't generally have a problem with them, I do have issues with irresponsible owners. However, unless you've developed telepathy how are you going to reassure a person with some sort of dog phobia that the mutt bounding towards them is safe? I don't care how well you, or anyone else, thinks they know or have trained a dog, there can always be that one time.

All I'm saying is that dog owners are making judgement calls, on behalf of others, that they have no right to make. Whereas if they adhere to the law then there are no problems.


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## MacB (11 Feb 2012)

Fab Foodie said:


> Fcuk this is a depressing thread.
> Yes I have the original version of the book too. I'm sure he's talking about what you can do in an extreme circumstances rather than cyclist-related dog genocide. There are some dogs that are frickin powerful and just IF you caught in the middle of nowhere it could be useful to know what you MIGHT be able to do.
> 
> On the wider subjects of dogs et al, I posted this a few weeeks ago and a repeat in this thread seems apt:
> ...


​​I don't get this trying to equate dogs with humans and human activity, especially with children...they are animals and should be controlled as such.​


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## Fab Foodie (11 Feb 2012)

MacB said:


> ​​I don't get this trying to equate dogs with humans and human activity, especially with children...they are animals and should be controlled as such.​


 It's quite simple, as a dog owner you are responsible for your dog, as a parent your responsible for your children (which are also animals), both are often unpredictable and parents/owners make judgement calls that are not always perfect ... the result sometimes impacts on others. Such is the human condition. What we can do is control how we respond to others failiures.


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## MacB (11 Feb 2012)

Fab Foodie said:


> It's quite simple, as a dog owner you are responsible for your dog, as a parent your responsible for your children (which are also animals), both are often unpredictable and parents/owners make judgement calls that are not always perfect ... the result sometimes impacts on others. Such is the human condition. What we can do is control how we respond to others failiures.


 
Nope you're still putting dogs on a par with humans, may be your view but will never be mine.


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## Fab Foodie (11 Feb 2012)

MacB said:


> Nope you're still putting dogs on a par with humans, may be your view but will never be mine.


 ...OK, you've convinced me ... from now on I'll put animals above humans ....


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## lukesdad (11 Feb 2012)

Ive used the advice on cycle commuters and let me tell you it works a treat, especially those little gobby ones with the cameras !


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## MacB (12 Feb 2012)

[QUOTE 1720209, member: 9609"]In the context of a thread that questions the use of extreme violence towards dogs, you have implied that you see nothing wrong with such violence being inflicted on any dog that you don't like the look of that is not on a very short lead.

Thankfully dogs are extremely astute at picking up on unusual people, the two dogs that I have spent a considerable amount of time with seem to naturally give odd bods a wide berth. So hopefully the vast majority of dogs out there will never come into close contact with the type of people that yourself and Greg seem to be aspiring to be.

My last dog would have nothing whatsoever to do with my best friends girlfriend, he would make it abundantly clear he did not want to be anywhere near her - It was most embarrassing - she appeared to my best friend, my wife and myself to be the most wonderful person. Within a couple of years we all realized the dog was right - she was one incredibly disturbed woman.[/quote]

Now you're getting unhinged yourself, trying to equate a dislike/distrust/fear of dogs with mental illness. I also think even the most cursory of re-reads will indicate that you are making assumptions and embellishing what Greg and I have posted.

To clarify, I see nothing wrong with someone that feels threatened by an animal taking the steps THEY FEEL are appropriate to safeguard themselves.

If you look after your animal as you are meant to then that scenario would never arise....it really is that simple


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## ianrauk (12 Feb 2012)

A dog running up to my son (who has only just turned 2) in the park and jumping up scaring the life out of him making him scream in terror. But apparently it's ok though as the owner said the dog loves kids and was just being friendly. . The dog get's a kick if it happens again I said to him, nice doggy or not. I also see any dog running up to me/chasing me whilst cycling as a threat and will deal with the situation as such. People should keep their dogs under control. It's simple.


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## GrumpyGregry (12 Feb 2012)

People, just keep your dogs under control. If you, like the vast majority of the dog owning population, aren't able to train your mutt properly so it obeys your commands then keep it on a lead out in public.


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## ColinJ (12 Feb 2012)

Once, I was toiling up a steep hill out of Hebden Bridge on my bike. I saw a huge Doberman a.k.a _The Hound of the Baskervilles_ loping across a field next to its owner's house towards the dry stone wall that separated us. I was very grateful for that wall. *Until the beast cleared it in one massive leap, that is! *

I know dogs, and can tell the difference between a bit of defensive posturing and attack mode - *this was full-on attack mode!*

I did a swift u-turn and sprinted back down the hill with the slobbering dog in hot pursuit. I _just_ managed to outpace it. If I didn't have the downhill to boost my speed, it would have got me. 

There'd been no trees to climb, no sheds to hide in, nobody around to help me. The dog had already shown that it could get over walls. It wasn't listening to me - I'd tried a gentle _'Good boy!'_, a firm _'Sit!'_ and a snarled _'Gerr' out uv it!. _If it had caught me it would have been a serious attack, and I'd have tried to put up a serious defence, along the lines described in the original post. Yes, I know it isn't a great idea to fight a big powerful dog and I'd have felt _awful_ if I _had_ seriously injured or killed it, but what else could I have done but try - _engage it in a meaningful discussion on the evils of violence! _

In case you think I exaggerate - a colleague of mine lived across the road from the dog owner and told me that the very same Doberman had bitten a passerby a week before, after which attack the owner had been ordered to keep it under control. A few days later, the same dog attacked the postman - the owner was warned that he _must_ either keep it indoors or chained up when outside in the field. And there it was a couple of days after that, unsupervised and unchained, free to attack again! 

So, I escaped by the skin of my teeth. Soon afterwards, the dog was despatched to that great doggy graveyard in the sky, courtesy of the authorities (finally) acting, and entirely because of the selfish stupidity of one moronic dog owner.


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## Seigi (12 Feb 2012)

I have two dogs, a greyhound and a Irish/Lakeland terrier cross, I love them both to bits and I understand how much people love their dogs but if I felt threatened by a dog charging towards me barking and snarling I'd feel compelled to defend myself, and wouldn't think twice of using excessive force. I'd do the same to my own dogs if they threatened me or my family in such a manner and didn't respond to my commands.

I was once out hiking/walking with my girlfriend and we were walking up a quiet lane with what seemed like a house/farm sort of building, when a dog aggressively started barking, snarling and trying to get over the small dry stone wall to get to us and I was pretty sure it didn't want to lick us, ahead I saw there was a gate where the dog could have easily got under if it wanted so I prepared by picking up a large rock with the intention of bashing it over its head - Thankfully for both us and the dog it ran back to the house (Not sure if the owner called it or what, but it was a relief). But yeah, I feel that if I needed to defend myself from having my throat ripped out by a dog I would, User9609 - What would you do in the event that a dog aggressively comes charging towards you, with what you feel is, the intention of hurting yourself or your family?


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## Bicycle (12 Feb 2012)

The only time I've ever been faced with an aggressive dog was many years ago in France. I was trespassing and completely in the wrong, sneaking to some private land on a lake.

It was absolutely terrifying - and in those days I thought I was quite a tough cookie. I kept it at bay with a big stick (dead bough) and my beach towel twirled into a whip. I also did the big, snarly, aggressive stance, but felt silly and still quite petrified as I did it.

Insofar as I got away in one piece, I won. Insofar as the dog saw us off the property, he won.

All this clever-clever prose about how to kill an attacking dog misses one major point: It is difficult to think quickly and act quickly when you're trying to prevent an involuntary bowel movement.

The piece quoted in the OP seems just an amusing aside in a book. For 99% of readers (me included) it is as realistic a prospect as making a moon rocket out of old newspapers. Big attack dogs are not a nice thing to meet when they are cross.


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## ColinJ (12 Feb 2012)

Bicycle said:


> All this clever-clever prose about how to kill an attacking dog misses one major point: It is difficult to think quickly and act quickly when you're trying to prevent an involuntary bowel movement.
> 
> The piece quoted in the OP seems just an amusing aside in a book. For 99% of readers (me included) it is as realistic a prospect as making a moon rocket out of old newspapers. Big attack dogs are not a nice thing to meet when they are cross.


Yes, indeed, but given these 2 options, and _only_ these 2 options:

Accept that the dog is going to win! Let it chew you up, rip your throat out, mutilate you. It is better at the fighting malarkey than you. You don't stand a chance. You just drew the short straw! Accept death.
The dog is _probably_ going to win. It is going to _try_ and chew you up, rip your throat out, mutilate you. It is better at the fighting malarkey than you and you don't stand _much_ chance against it. You definitely drew the short straw, you've just crapped yourself, and you are terrified! Now - use that adrenaline and fight for your life!
... I'm going for option 2!


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## Holdsworth (12 Feb 2012)

I was chased by three greyhound which were loose, they were outside a group of "traveller" caravans that had set up on a grass verge and stayed there for about 4 days. Once going past at half seven in the morning and again going home at five in the evening on the same day. On the second occasion the owner shouted at the dogs and bought then under control before they could move very far. I was most surprised that I was not overtaken as I was doing a slow 15mph with weary, back-to-commuting legs.

Dogs should be kept under strict control on a public highway. I do have a soft spot for dogs though, we had one as a family pet until it was put to sleep back in October, more pressing concerns have dissuaded us from getting another so far.


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## Matthew_T (12 Feb 2012)

I had a bit of an incident with a dog today.

I was cycling down the river bank which is usually scattered with dog owners and people out for a walk. I was approaching a woman and her daughter and they had a dog between me and them. The dog was very big and just stopped and stared at me.
I gave a little toot of the airzound to get the womans attention and she just turned around and didnt bother calling her dog (like they normally do).
As I passed the dog, it turned around and started running after me. As I passed the woman (with the dog running besides me) she still didnt call for it.
I then decided to get rid of this dog so had to accellerate to 25 mph (it was keeping up with me at 20), and finally left it behind.

This happened on a shared use path but with no distinct cycling signs or markings apart from the start and end of the path. I can only presume that the woman thought it was just a pathway so felt that me getting chased by a big dog would be a suitable punishment.
The dog wasnt barking or anything, it was just intimidating by the size.


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## Enigma2008 (12 Feb 2012)

The reality of this thread just ain't funny!! Whilst riding my MTB on a canal towpath I was set upon by a loose greyhound, the elderly lady owner was 20 mtrs away. Initial reaction to speed up and ride away, nah not against a snarling, aggressive greyhound eh? So, second instinct stop and get of bike and put it between me and the dog, then use bike as a weapon and threaten the dog whilst going towards it waving said bike. Elderly lady owner turns up and shouts at me to 'stop doing that you're making it worse'! Didn't know which to throw in the canal first her or the dog!! Fxxxing dogs and their screwed up owners, a plague on em all!!


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## Fab Foodie (12 Feb 2012)

Enigma2008 said:


> Fxxxing dogs *and their screwed up owners*, a plague on em all!!


Fcuk you too tosspot cyclewanking cockwomble!!!!


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## Enigma2008 (12 Feb 2012)

I rest my case!


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## Fab Foodie (12 Feb 2012)

Enigma2008 said:


> I rest my case!


 
You may well rest your case if you think it's acceptable to call/imply certain members here are screwed-up?


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## col (12 Feb 2012)

I was chased by an Alsation for a second time when I passed a farm entrance. I wasnt going to visit A and E for a tetanus so decided to jump off and kill retrain the dog if it carried on with its attack. Funny thing is it turned and scarpered when I showed I wasnt scared, or maybe it had an idea what was on my mind?


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## lukesdad (12 Feb 2012)

col said:


> I was chased by an Alsation for a second time when I passed a farm entrance. I wasnt going to visit A and E for a tetanus so decided to jump off and kill retrain the dog if it carried on with its attack. Funny thing is it turned and scarpered when I showed I wasnt scared, or maybe it had an idea what was on my mind?


Nah, you must of used the "force"


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## Nantmor (12 Feb 2012)

I was once bitten. Not at all serious, but it broke the skin. The dog was allowed to roam the streets around where I worked. It had a thing about cyclists, so I reeducated it. Whenever I spotted it I chased it. It didn't take long before it fled instantly from cyclists. It later had its second bite and was put down.


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## zizou (12 Feb 2012)

I once got bitten by a dog when i was cycling - it darted towards the rider in front and went for him, but missed then went for me and had a bite at my ankle as i was pedalling - the pain didnt register for a couple of minutes as i was too intent on getting away and the adrenalin was flowing. Stopped to survey the damage and my tights, overshoes and sock were flapping about and there was a bloody puncture wound just above my achiles, so although bad was probably a lucky escape in terms of long term damage. Owner and dog nowhere to be seen by the time we headed back up the trail to see them.

The thing is i saw the dog bounding over and i knew it was going to have a bite but i was still reluctant to kick out, so it is all very well saying how you should or should not behave in these sorts of situation, until it happens you wont know how you will react. Having the bike and already going at some sort of speed definitely helped the 'fight or flight' option though!


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## Nantmor (12 Feb 2012)

I had an Inspecteur Clouseau moment once. Riding down a country lane this dog kept snapping round my ankles. The bloody woman just stood watching. "If you don't call it off me I will give it a good kicking." "Its not my dog."


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## ColinJ (12 Feb 2012)

I was riding along a bridleway on my mountain bike when I saw a rambler walking towards me with his 2 Jack Russells running free. Given that virtually every Jack Russell I have ever encountered off the lead has tried to nip me, I anticipated problems ...

CJ: _Please, would you hold on to your dogs while I ride by?_

Man: _No - I have a right to walk my dogs and you have no right to be here! _

CJ: _Actually, this is a public bridleway and I am allowed here, so please restrain your dogs while I pass you, I wouldn't like them to get hurt._

Man: _You have no right to be on a bike on a bridleway, and don't you threaten my dogs!_

CJ: _Bridleways are rights of way for walkers, equestrians and cyclists and you are clearly ignorant of the law. I am not threatening you or your dogs, I am simply pointing out that I weigh over 15 stone and a big man on a chunky-tyred mountain bike would make a nasty mess of a small dog if there was a collision. I am asking you nicely to hold your dogs for 10 seconds while I ride past - THANK YOU! _

Man: _I'll do no such thing. You can turn round and go back the way you came!_

CJ: _Life is too short for this nonsense. Sorry, but I will not be doing a 5 mile detour because of an ignoramus like you. I'll try to avoid your dogs, but if they get hurt it will be due to your stupidity!_

I carried on riding and as expected, the dogs ran forward yapping and trying to nip my ankles. One ran straight under my front wheel and almost got crushed. Only emergency braking saved it's neck. And then the other dog sneaked round and bit me! It put a hole through my overshoe but it didn't puncture my skin.

At that point, I started to lose my cool and told the man to leash his dogs immediately or I'd kick the next one to come near me. He just stood there wittering on about how he knew his rights, don't touch his dogs, he'd have the law on me ...

I shook my head, called him an idiot and rode off with the yapping dogs in hot pursuit.


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## Mugshot (13 Feb 2012)

ColinJ said:


> I was riding along a bridleway on my mountain bike when I saw a rambler walking towards me with his 2 Jack Russells running free. Given that virtually every Jack Russell I have ever encountered off the lead has tried to nip me, I anticipated problems ...etc


So you discussed legalities with the chap, asked him on several occasions to control his dogs and informed him of the potential consequences? You then end up getting chased by the dogs, bitten by the dogs, impeded and generally inconvenienced and injured by the dogs, whilst the owner does nothing?
May I suggest you read "Richards Bicycle Book" he has a few tips you may find useful


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## Matthew_T (13 Feb 2012)

I have my bike pump between my legs on a quick-clip system. It means that I can just unclip it when I need to.
It is in the perfect position to get out and thwack some anckle biting dog whenever I need to.

I think that if I were in CJ's position. I would have lost my cool and got such bike pump and thwacked the owner instead of the dog.


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## Mugshot (13 Feb 2012)

Matthew_T said:


> I have my bike pump between my legs


Sig alert!


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## Dan_h (13 Feb 2012)

If you can, it is amusing to ride just faster than the dog can catch you, they will sometimes chase you for miles before you pick up speed and ride off. It is hilarious watching the owners running after you and their dog as best they can!


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## Night Train (13 Feb 2012)

As horrific as the passage reads and as much as I love dogs I have been attacked once by a mad German Shepard that managed to snap its lead after being tied to a bollard outside an off licence.
During the attack my defence was to attempt to kill the dog as quickly as possible to which end I dragged it up into the air by the scruff and tried to kick it in the abdomen, the chest, the throat, I tried to strangle it, I tried to smash its head against the wall, I tried to poke its eyes out, rip its jaws open, dislocate is shoulders and so on.

It only stopped the attack when is owner came out of the off licence and called it off. The pair wondered off as if nothing had happened. Fortunately I was wearing a leather motorbike jacket that took the brunt of the bites. Of the many customers in and around the off licence there were no witnesses and no one saw anyone with a dog.


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## ColinJ (13 Feb 2012)

Dan_h said:


> If you can, it is amusing to ride just faster than the dog can catch you, they will sometimes chase you for miles before you pick up speed and ride off.


This one isn't a Jack Russell, that's for sure, and I wouldn't be laughing if it got close enough to eat _my_ shoe!


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## MontyVeda (13 Feb 2012)

Dan_h said:


> If you can, it is amusing to ride just faster than the dog can catch you, they will sometimes chase you for miles before you pick up speed and ride off. It is hilarious watching the owners running after you and their dog as best they can!


 
I was thinking Colin should have tried that.. "Come on fido, follow me... that way your pr!ck of an owner will have to walk miles and miles to find you."


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## subaqua (13 Feb 2012)

[QUOTE 1719448, member: 9609"]Sadly there are people out there who take a great delight in killing and hurting animals, and I guess so much the better if that animal happens to be someone's pet. Cyclist should also be aware how important and loved dogs are to their owners, and any act of violence towards their dog may be rapidly repaid.[/quote]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-17014827

there are of course irresponsible owners.


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## Arjimlad (13 Feb 2012)

lukesdad said:


> Nah, you must of used the "force"


 
Lol - "this is not the cyclist you are looking for"


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## GrumpyGregry (13 Feb 2012)

From my local paper 2 February. 19 stitches in her face, from minding her own business when along comes a dog off the lead. Someone connected to the case, known to me, claims the owner of said dog has tried both the traditional "It has never done that before" and the _blame the victim_ defences.


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## Arjimlad (13 Feb 2012)

Thinking about how to defend yourself or others against a dog attack does not mean you hate dogs. I'm around dogs a lot when shooting but they are all well trained & responsibly owned.

Some of the dog owners round my way think it's OK to let a boxer chase a terrified 6 year old around a field though.


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## GrumpyGregry (14 Feb 2012)

[QUOTE 1722741, member: 9609"]Unlike the other contributors to this thread who seem to have a more reasoned and balanced approach to defending oneself against a dog, to my mind you and Greg seem to have relished the extreme violence referred to in the original post, and even hinted there would be little wrong in delivering such violence on any dog that is not under the strictest of control. I hope my understanding is wrong.[/quote]

Any violence I choose to dish out to any dumb animal, including of the genus homo sapiens, is in direct proportion to the threat that I consider they represent to my wellbeing and the wellbeing of my loved ones.


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## Little yellow Brompton (14 Feb 2012)

MontyVeda said:


> I was thinking Colin should have tried that.. "Come on fido, follow me... that way your pr!ck of an owner will have to walk miles and miles to find you."


A few years ago I was riding on a NCN path and some old biddy and her turd dispenser were in front of me. The manky little thing was of course off the lead, as I went past the creature ( the old biddy was about 10 yards past) it lunged for my front wheel and then proceeded to snarl, lunge, retreat, snarl , lunge etc... I gave it a blast on the Airzound ( the only time I ever found it usefull) The little maggot levitated 2 feet vertically and swam in mid air, when it hit the ground again it's little legs were still moving and it took off at a rate of knots, peerig over it;s shoulder every few paces. We soon left the zone where I could hear the biddy bleating "poochikins, darling?" , and we continued, me at a reasonable touring pace, the turd dispenser flat out, legs burring, checking over it's shoulder, seeing I was still there and continuing. Eventually ( a mile or so) it tired and dived into the bushes at the side of the path.


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## Little yellow Brompton (14 Feb 2012)

Arjimlad said:


> Thinking about how to defend yourself or others against a dog attack does not mean you hate dogs. I'm around dogs a lot when shooting but they are all well trained & responsibly owned.
> 
> Some of the dog owners round my way think it's OK to let a boxer chase a terrified 6 year old around a field though.


Outside of shooting I have never met a dog that was well trained.


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## Bman (14 Feb 2012)

Bongman said:


> A moose once bit my sister


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## Spinney (14 Feb 2012)

Little yellow Brompton said:


> AThe little maggot levitated 2 feet vertically and swam in mid air, when it hit the ground again it's little legs were still moving and it took off at a rate of knots, peerig over it;s shoulder every few paces. We soon left the zone where I could hear the biddy bleating "poochikins, darling?" , and we continued, me at a reasonable touring pace, the turd dispenser flat out, legs burring, checking over it's shoulder, seeing I was still there and continuing. Eventually ( a mile or so) it tired and dived into the bushes at the side of the path.


 
Literally 

Glad I wasn't drinking tea when I read that!


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## Crackle (14 Feb 2012)

Forums are funny old places aren't they. I used to visit a motorhome forum and the guaranteed subject to incite forum violence was children, dog threads were universally gushy. If you ever want to pee off motorhome owners, release your children outside their van with a football. Wanna talk to them, release the dog, simples!


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## GrumpyGregry (14 Feb 2012)

[QUOTE 1723161, member: 9609"]You certainly talk the big game - which probably means you will be more squeak than squark.[/quote]
A few have made that mistake.


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## ColinJ (14 Feb 2012)

It seems perfectly straightforward to me ...

Well-behaved dog attacked by cyclist: unacceptable, and cyclist to blame
Small, yappy, snappy dog gently kicked away by cyclist: acceptable, and blame lies with dog owner
Small, yappy, snappy dog injured or killed by cyclist: unacceptable overreaction, but blame shared with dog owner
Vicious, dangerous dog injured or killed by cyclist in self-defence: acceptable, and blame lies with dog owner


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## GrumpyGregry (14 Feb 2012)

Small yappy, snappy dog under control, and if it is snappy and yappy this means on a lead. No harm done. No one to blame.

Scales up beautifully as a solution too. Prevention is so much better than cure. Responsible dog owners keep their dogs under control.


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## GrumpyGregry (14 Feb 2012)

[QUOTE 1723186, member: 9609"]*Well one things for certain by and large cyclist do seem to hate the dog owning part of society.* Come to think of it forum cyclists seem to be an incredibly negative bunch, I can't think of a subject forum cyclist would become all gushy over. I need to get back to the positive world of hillwalking or I may turn into a proper cyclist[/quote]
Interesting. My father owns a dog. Both my sisters own dogs. My best friend owns a dog. Most of my in-laws own dogs. I love them all, and I'm quite fond of their dogs too. I've dog sat and dog walked for all of them.


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## ianrauk (14 Feb 2012)

I love dogs.
It's just that I hate their owners.


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## Crackle (14 Feb 2012)

[QUOTE 1723186, member: 9609"]Well one things for certain by and large cyclist do seem to hate the dog owning part of society. Come to think of it forum cyclists seem to be an incredibly negative bunch, I can't think of a subject forum cyclist would become all gushy over. I need to get back to the positive world of hillwalking or I may turn into a proper cyclist[/quote]

I think, to put it in perspective Reiver, that if you met either MacB or Greg out on a walk with your dog, you'd probably all exchange pleasantries, maybe chew the cud and nothing more.

I also think that it's the minority in most things which give us all a bad name. As a dog owner, badly trained pets and dog poo irritate me as much as anyone else. Red light jumpers reflect on us all, out of control screaming kids reflect on all parents and so on up and down the scale of things that we do and others don't. The trick is not to take it personally and just step back.

I know from your posts you're a reasonable bloke, I know from Greg's he is too and I know from MacB's that......OK we'll leave MacB out  And as for that Brompton fella........


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## MacB (14 Feb 2012)

Crackle said:


> I think, to put it in perspective Reiver, that if you met either MacB or Greg out on a walk with your dog, you'd probably all exchange pleasantries, maybe chew the cud and nothing more.
> 
> I also think that it's the minority in most things which give us all a bad name. As a dog owner, badly trained pets and dog poo irritate me as much as anyone else. Red light jumpers reflect on us all, out of control screaming kids reflect on all parents and so on up and down the scale of things that we do and others don't. The trick is not to take it personally and just step back.
> 
> I know from your posts you're a reasonable bloke, I know from Greg's he is too and I know from MacB's that......OK we'll leave MacB out  And as for that Brompton fella........


 
I'm welling up inside now


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## GrumpyGregry (14 Feb 2012)

[QUOTE 1723211, member: 45"]Donkeys[/quote]
Rainbows


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## yello (14 Feb 2012)

I was attacked by a donkey once.... just saying.


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## Mugshot (14 Feb 2012)

yello said:


> I was attacked by a donkey once.... just saying.


Hee Haw n't to have done that.


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## Cyclopathic (14 Feb 2012)

ColinJ said:


> This one isn't a Jack Russell, that's for sure, and I wouldn't be laughing if it got close enough to eat _my_ shoe!



I can't help but think if the dog had eaten Kevin Costner we might all have been saved the many awful films he went on to "star" in.
I've never seen American Flyers but after watching two clips am sure that if I do watch it then nothing in it will coma as any surprise at all. It's probably good that I didn't see it because it might have put me off ever getting on a bike.


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## Cyclopathic (14 Feb 2012)

GregCollins said:


> A few have made that mistake.


 Good grief.


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## col (14 Feb 2012)

GregCollins said:


> A few have made that mistake.


 Your not ma, er I mean someone else are you?


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## Cyclopathic (14 Feb 2012)

[QUOTE 1723186, member: 9609"]Well one things for certain by and large cyclist do seem to hate the dog owning part of society. Come to think of it forum cyclists seem to be an incredibly negative bunch, I can't think of a subject forum cyclist would become all gushy over. I need to get back to the positive world of hillwalking or I may turn into a proper cyclist[/quote]
No, don't go. Voices of reason are needed. I almost wish I hadn't started the thread. The last thing I expected was for anybody to say Oh yes he's so right or that it could be useful to know how to kick a dogs balss out through it's head. I didn't expect people to get all daily mail or start citing extreme examples of dog attacks when I thought people here at least would know enough to know that one can find extreme examples to support just about anything>
I really just thought that people would read the passage and say things like "Phew what a loony" or at the very worst "Hmmm, yes some dogs can be rather dangerous but this chap goes a bit far" I really did not expect to awaken peoples latent Charles Bronson.


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## ColinJ (14 Feb 2012)

Cyclopathic said:


> I can't help but think if the dog had eaten Kevin Costner we might all have been saved the many awful films he went on to "star" in.
> I've never seen American Flyers but after watching two clips am sure that if I do watch it then nothing in it will coma as any surprise at all. It's probably good that I didn't see it because it might have put me off ever getting on a bike.


I actually enjoy it in a _"so bad that it's good"_ kind of way!  

I watch it every 3 or 4 years when I feel like relaxing with a few beers and watching something unchallenging that I can laugh at.

I always feel like going for a ride in the sunshine after watching it!


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## GrumpyGregry (14 Feb 2012)

yello said:


> I was attacked by a donkey once.... just saying.


be grateful it wasn't a unicorn.


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## GrumpyGregry (14 Feb 2012)

Whilst doing a spot of research into cycle trailers I came across the carry freedom general FAQ which contains this corker, which in the context of this thread, made me chortle....

*What problems are there with trailers?*
Dog shoot, and bad design. When cycling it is easy not to cycle through dog shoot, with a trailer you have another two wheels to remember. Practice by dodging stones, its worth it. Bad designs have given people a wrong impression about trailers. A good trailer is a joy to own, a bad trailer rusts
quietly in your garage.


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## Cyclopathic (14 Feb 2012)

ColinJ said:


> I actually enjoy it in a _"so bad that it's good"_ kind of way!
> 
> I watch it every 3 or 4 years when I feel like relaxing with a few beers and watching something unchallenging that I can laugh at.
> 
> I always feel like going for a ride in the sunshine after watching it!


 It is nice to see those 80s steel bikes when they were state of the art and all and it is nice to see someone pop a wheelie on a racer (sorry I mean road bike of course)


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## yello (14 Feb 2012)

[QUOTE 1723379, member: 45"]You'd have deserved it.[/quote]

Probably. I called it an ass.


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## ColinJ (14 Feb 2012)

yello said:


> I was attacked by a donkey once.... just saying.


I got attacked by a _goat_ once!  

I was walking across some local allotments with my then young stepdaughter, when the unchained Billy spotted us, put his head down and charged. Stepsprogette was scared and started crying so I picked her up and ran with her in my arms, and the angry goat butting my, er, butt! 

One of my trainers came off so I deposited stepsprogette in a safe place and had to go back into the allotments for it. I picked up the trainer and then the goat came back for another go at me. It chased me all round the allotments and I was laughing so hard, I could hardly breathe!


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## Nantmor (14 Feb 2012)

[QUOTE 1723445, member: 9609"]

Is he ever going to grow up and stop going on about turd dispensers ? [/quote]

Has anyone reading this never stepped in a dog turd?


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## Nantmor (14 Feb 2012)

Dog turds can appear anywhere, unlike mine shafts. I've had them on my door step. To draw attention to this loathsome habit is not childish. Why is it that dogs can get away with behaviour that would attract police interest in a human?
Dog waste is rather unpleasant for cyclists too, since a wheel can throw it around, and since some dog owners take their dogs on shared paths in order to dispense the aforementioned.


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## Bicycle (14 Feb 2012)

col said:


> I was chased by an Alsation for a second time when I passed a farm entrance. I wasnt going to visit A and E for a tetanus so decided to jump off and kill retrain the dog if it carried on with its attack. Funny thing is it turned and scarpered when I showed I wasnt scared, or maybe it had an idea what was on my mind?


 
That's nothing!

I support a football team managed by an Alsatian. They've been dogged by poor luck for a few seasons now.


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## Mugshot (14 Feb 2012)

Nantmor said:


> Why is it that dogs can get away with behaviour that would attract police interest in a human?


Do you mean why are dog owners that allow their dogs to behave in a manner which would be unacceptable if it were a human doing it not targeted by the police, or are you suggesting that dogs should be arrested for having a poo?


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## Bicycle (14 Feb 2012)

[QUOTE 1723458, member: 9609"]I got attacked by an *Arctic Turn* and it made a fair gash in the top of my head, must have bled for an hour or more.[/quote]

An Arctic Turn is how Finnish rally drivers get round hairpins.

I think you were attacked by an Arctic Tern.

If, on the other hand, you suffered at the hands of an Artic Turn, it may be because you were in the driver's blindspot.

I'll get my coat...


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## Nantmor (14 Feb 2012)

Mugshot said:


> Do you mean why are dog owners that allow their dogs to behave in a manner which would be unacceptable if it were a human doing it not targeted by the police, or are you suggesting that dogs should be arrested for having a poo?


Waddya think?


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## Nantmor (14 Feb 2012)

Mugshot said:


> Do you mean why are dog owners that allow their dogs to behave in a manner which would be unacceptable if it were a human doing it not targeted by the police, or are you suggesting that dogs should be arrested for having a poo?


Not just poo. Try vigourously goosing a stranger with your nose.


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## Bicycle (14 Feb 2012)

This thread beats some of the recent helmet and RLJ malarkey for pure entertainment value.

Good dog owners are good. Naughty ones are naughty.

Good drivers are good. Naughty ones are naughty.

Good cyclists are good. Naughty ones are naughty.

Thank you for reading this important message.


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## Little yellow Brompton (14 Feb 2012)

Crackle said:


> I think, to put it in perspective Reiver, that if you met either MacB or Greg out on a walk with your dog, you'd probably all exchange pleasantries, maybe chew the cud and nothing more.
> 
> I also think that it's the minority majority which give us all a bad name. As a dog owner, badly trained pets and dog poo irritate me as much as anyone else. Red light jumpers reflect on us all, out of control screaming kids reflect on all parents and so on up and down the scale of things that we do and others don't. The trick is not to take it personally and just step back.
> 
> I know from your posts you're a reasonable bloke, I know from Greg's he is too and I know from MacB's that......OK we'll leave MacB out  And as for that Brompton fella........


 I fixed your text for you. I forget the numbers now, but the last time I counted, on my "long" commute, there was a ratio of 80/20 well behaved dogs/owners compared with turd dispensers/scaflaws.


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## Little yellow Brompton (14 Feb 2012)

[QUOTE 1723445, member: 9609"]I'm sure I will meet them in other threads and we will get on just swimmingly - but on this thread we are on different sides of the fence.

Is he ever going to grow up and stop going on about turd dispensers ? [/quote]
The moment they stop dispensing turds!


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## Little yellow Brompton (14 Feb 2012)

[QUOTE 1723461, member: 9609"]<troll mode>Its a good way of teaching people to watch where they are walking - better the minor inconvenience of having to clean a shoe than one day falling down a mine shaft</troll mode>
Actually it really does wind me up people leaving dog crap on paths![/quote]

"People" don't , dog walkers do.


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## Mugshot (14 Feb 2012)

Nantmor said:


> Waddya think?


Well I'm not sure that's why I asked 


Nantmor said:


> Not just poo. Try vigourously goosing a stranger with your nose.


LMAO, now there's a suggestion. 
You're right of course, sniffing, pooing, weeing and simulated sex with bits of old carpet would be unacceptable if performed in a public place by you or I. It is of course therefore logical that it should be outlawed when it comes to animals too. It would be an excellent use of police resources, I would imagine they would use the dog unit. 
Personally I'd like them to sort birds out, there's one particular individual that loves to do his business on my wing mirror , I may have a word with my local police station, flying squad maybe?
BTW, have you met Brokenflipflop? He likes horses.


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## Nantmor (14 Feb 2012)

Mugshot said:


> Well I'm not sure that's why I asked
> 
> LMAO, now there's a suggestion.
> You're right of course, sniffing, pooing, weeing and simulated sex with bits of old carpet would be unacceptable if performed in a public place by you or I. It is of course therefore logical that it should be outlawed when it comes to animals too. It would be an excellent use of police resources, I would imagine they would use the dog unit.
> ...


So you were seriously asking whether I thought it a good idea to involve the police force in prosecuting dogs? O.K. I think that is so obviously a ludicrous suggestion that I imagined noone could think that is what I meant.
Unlike wild birds dogs have owners, and they can be held in law responsible for the actions of their mutts. Your laboured sarcasm is not relevant.


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## Nantmor (14 Feb 2012)

[QUOTE 1723549, member: 9609"]Is there a requirement for humans to scoop their own poop? If I am up in the hills wild camping with the dog, I am entitled to leave my own but I must bag and carry off the dogs - seems a little unfair.

Anyway, I am in no way defending dog owners who don't pick up, a few weeks ago I knelt in a dog turd while planting a tree. arrrggggggggghhh

People say dogs are stupid but have you ever seen a dog stand in a human turd![/quote]
Are you really required to pick up the turds laid in the hills? I imagine the law on pooperscoopers was intended to deal with street turds. If it catches wild turds this may be a problem, but I have never heard of a prosecution. However many wild places are well used and any carnivore's turds would be unpleasant. I bury mine. It does not seem very unfair to me.
I have seen dogs eat human turds.


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## Nantmor (14 Feb 2012)

[QUOTE 1723605, member: 9609"]In Scotland you don't have to pick up on farm land and presumably this covers the hills.
I would usually bury mine (and never near a stream and and if anywhere near a bothy then always downhill from that bothy) although there is good argument for leaving it in the open as it will disappear much quicker, if the ground is peat you may just be preserving it.
A dog may indeed eat a human turd, or even roll in it, but that would be a choice. Joking apart about dogs standing in human poo, I have never known my dog stand in a dog poo, and walking near where I live in the dark it is nearly impossible to miss the stuff.[/quote]
You are more careful than I am with stools on the hill. I will try to follow your ideas.
I was once overcome by nature halfway down a steep glacier under occasional stonefall. I was roped to two companions who loudly and unecessarily urged me to hurry. The movement is probably deep-frozen and perfectly preserved.
Dogs carry their noses close to the ground, in order to detect interesting things. As I wrote, they may look at a nice turd as a tasty snack.


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## Bicycle (14 Feb 2012)

Nantmor said:


> .... they may look at a nice turd as a tasty snack.


 
You can still buy these in petrol stations, marketed under the Ginster's brand name.


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## MacB (14 Feb 2012)

Interesting as this is, I wasn't aware that human poop was a big issue for your average walker, runner, cyclist.

Thankfully, despite having trodden in dog poo, I have managed to avoid falling down a mine shaft...you could only make up these levels of straw men


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## Mugshot (14 Feb 2012)

Nantmor said:


> So you were seriously asking whether I thought it a good idea to involve the police force in prosecuting dogs? O.K. I think that is so obviously a ludicrous suggestion that I imagined noone could think that is what I meant.
> Unlike wild birds dogs have owners, and they can be held in law responsible for the actions of their mutts. Your laboured sarcasm is not relevant.


I was serious, lets revisit what you said below;


Nantmor said:


> Dog turds can appear anywhere, unlike mine shafts. I've had them on my door step. To draw attention to this loathsome habit is not childish. Why is it that dogs can get away with behaviour that would attract police interest in a human?


Can't see anything about the dogs owner being held responsible for the action of their charges, could you point out to me where it's so obvious please?
I can't actually remember saying what type of bird it was that's fond of my wing mirror, wild or otherwise, how about a chicken?


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## Nantmor (14 Feb 2012)

Mugshot said:


> I was serious, lets revisit what you said below;
> 
> Can't see anything about the dogs owner being held responsible for the action of their charges, could you point out to me where it's so obvious please?
> I can't actually remember saying what type of bird it was that's fond of my wing mirror, wild or otherwise, how about a chicken?


I lack words and will to respond.


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## Mugshot (14 Feb 2012)

Nantmor said:


> I lack words and will to respond.


Thought you might


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## Matthew_T (14 Feb 2012)

One thing that I would like to know is: Does the size of the dog contribute to what you can do to it?

Of course a big dog is more intimidating than a little-un but what if they are doing exactly the same (snapping at your anckles)?


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## Matthew_T (14 Feb 2012)

I might just make a video tomorrow of the advantages of having a weapon easily accessible on your bike for you to use.


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## MacB (14 Feb 2012)

Forget your regular cycling kit you've got to ride properly tooled up:-

shin guards
a box for the gents
studded gauntlets
studded gloves
full face helmet
throat guard disguised as a Buff
get a pair of those shoes from that James Bond film, where the blade flicks out of the toe
machette and hammer attached to bike frame

now bring on the dogs


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## Nantmor (14 Feb 2012)

I find a pump is a good anti dog item. Dogs can be clever enough to keep out of range of a stick, but a stick which doubles in length as you swing it can catch them out. Blumels used to make one with a heavier steel barrel to increase deterrence.


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## GrumpyGregry (15 Feb 2012)

Matthew_T said:


> One thing that I would like to know is: Does the size of the dog contribute to what you can do to it?
> 
> Of course a big dog is more intimidating than a little-un but what if they are doing exactly the same (snapping at your anckles)?


A big un won't be snapping at your ankle, more likely snapping your tib and fib, and little ones are generally at a severe weight and jaw power/capacity disadvantage should you stand your ground and confront.

I once had to insert my finger into a dog's anus to persuade it to cease its attack on Silverthedog, our then family pet, who was on a lead. I took great care to jab the owner with said digit in the ensuing 'debate' on canine control.

Here is a typical, ime, dog owner exercising an appropriate level of care and control over their animal in a public place...


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## SpokeyDokey (15 Feb 2012)

I think this murderous dog attacking thing must be regional. Was talking to 5 guys in the village who cycle regularly together and they have over 140 years cycling experience between them and adding my years in (20 in two bites) making 160 - and not a single dog related incident amongst them.

In my many years of mountain hiking I have logged well over 1000 hill days and have stumbled across many dogs, large and small, and not one problem.

My 12 year old Weimaraner sadly died last year clocked up around 6000 hours of walking with me (including 200 of those hill days) and we had only 2 hassle instances.

First was when walking him on a lead and passing a family group a child aged around 5 or 6 hit my dog with a small kids golf club for no reason. Dog yelped and grabbed the club hurting the child's wrist. Father not happy even though it was his childs fault.

Second was when we rounded a bend in a local woods and sprawled across the bridleway was a large family from Liverpool who had set up 2 picnic tables laden with scoff. And no my dog was not on a lead, we walked this route (along with the local horse riders) dozens of times a year and this was a total out of the blue event. Dog hurtled over and made off with a chicken drumstick.

That was it - all that time so little trouble.

***

As for the only dogs that are trained are 'shooters' well that is ridiculous. I know of many very well trained dogs. My own was trained enough to be allowed by 2 of our local farmers to walk off lead/on heel in their fields with sheep in them. He would also hit the deck on command whilst running at full speed. He would also 'down and stay' for 30 minutes + easily etc etc.

***

Just keeping some perspective - not all dogs are bad. Most are really nice and just want human fuss and praise.

***

My guess is that human cruelty to dogs far outweighs its polar opposite.


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## Arjimlad (16 Feb 2012)

There's a dog owner or two round my way who delight in leaving poop all over a pavement by the local primary school.

I believe that is irrefutably anti-social. If I could establish who is not picking up I would immediately report them to the Council.

It is a perishing nuisance especially to puschair users like my wife. A three wheeled pushchair is even worse !


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## Bromptonaut (16 Feb 2012)

Like somebody else upthread Richard's Bicycle Book was the testament that turned me from a bike rider into an informed cyclist.

First of all the book was written 40 years ago. Like Tintin au Congo or the 1956 Rainbow annual's stuff about 'darkie land' it's anchored in the paradigm of the time. Perhaps we were less shockable in 1974. The section concerned was edited from more recent re-prints.

But having got Richard off the shelf again and re-acquainted myself this is about a few hundred words in a 300 page paperback, are they really that bad?

Pages 117-8 describe the problems of riding in the country. Traffic, flocks, cattle grids and agricultural machinery get mentions before he turns to dogs. There's then a caution that (a) they're less of a problem in England than his native US and (b) what follows may be shocking.

He goes on to say most dogs are not a problem. They respond to you stopping and facing them so you are seen as a person. But some are a problem. Not necessarily the animal's fault; the 'weapon' dog egged on by an idiot owner was a recognised issue then as now.

What follows, and what has given offence on this thread, is his description of how to deal with such a dog in extremis. Even then he says _"The main thing in dealing with a vicious dog is confidence. As a human being you are one of the largest mammals on earth and a formidable contender in a fight. Suppress your fears and radiate the notion that ant dog that messes with you will regret it for the rest of his days"... "Speak to the dog in firm tones and keeping bike between it and you walk away"_

He goes on to suggest Pepper spray or ammonia before describing how a dog might have to be killed.

In forty years of touring and commuting I've never got past dismount and speak firmly. But there are enough reports of nutter’s dogs in UK to be mentally prepared for the nuclear option.


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## JohnHenry (16 Feb 2012)

[QUOTE 1724711, member: 9609"]Now I had always presumed Fenton was chasing the deer, may be there is another explanation; Fenton and the deer were having a relaxing day out in the park when they spot Greg cycling towards them. With knowledge of Gregs reputation and feared for their rear ends they head in the opposite direction as quick as their little legs will carry them. Interestingly Fentons owner has never been found, he'll rue the day he annoyed a cycling member of the special forces.[/quote]
A dog walker who became an internet sensation when he was filmed running after his black Labrador Fenton as he charged after deer has been unmasked.
Father-of-two Max Findlay, an editorial consultant, said 'I just want to move on' after the footage, recorded by a 13-year-old boy, went viral on YouTube.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2073540/Benton-dog-YouTube-video-Fentons-owner-Max-Findlay-just-wants-on.html#ixzz1maVZawSr


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## Little yellow Brompton (16 Feb 2012)

JohnHenry said:


> A dog walker who became an internet sensation when he was filmed running after his black Labrador Fenton as he charged after deer has been unmasked.
> Father-of-two Max Findlay, an editorial consultant, said 'I just want to move on' after the footage, recorded by a 13-year-old boy, went viral on YouTube.
> 
> Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2073540/Benton-dog-YouTube-video-Fentons-owner-Max-Findlay-just-wants-on.html#ixzz1maVZawSr


"Max won't be taking him back to Richmond Park any time soon and is considering giving him a new name if the fuss goes on"

The dog doesn't need a new name, the owner just needs to use a lead, then , nobody needs to hear what it's name is!


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