# Record (vinyl) turntable. I'm needing your advice.



## PaulB (13 Jan 2022)

Hey everyone,

I had some really good advice on here about a dash-cam I was buying last week so am asking the same question about getting back to playing vinyl records again.

Things seem to have changed so much since the olden days (1980/90s). I went into a branch of Richer Sounds yesterday hoping to leave with a suitable system but came out more confused than when I walked in. All this pre-amp stuff was a bit too much for my simple mind so anyone here with some advice would be gratefully accepted.

Firstly, the system recommended by the Richer Sounds guy wasn't in stock so I'd have to buy it on line. Secondly, the cost seemed OK to me...until he announced I'd need speakers to go with it and the ones he suggested were more expensive than the turntable taking the cost of the whole set up to over £1,000! 

Looking on Amazon is doing me no good because, like with the dash-cam, there are just too many pages and so much conflicting advice/suggestions. All I want is a record player than will allow me to begin playing 12 inch albums again. 

So if anyone has a system they like and sounds great, please let me know and I'll gratefully receive all forumites' recommendations.


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## MontyVeda (13 Jan 2022)

Firstly, what do you currently listen to music on?

Can you plug a turntable into that? (via an Aux input, possibly).

I'm old school so have a separates system; amp, tuner, cd, cassette deck, mini-disc and turntable... which makes things easy.

If you just have just a phone with spotify and a bluetooth speaker, then you'll need to invest in more than just a turntable.

edit... the salesperson in Richer Sounds will try to make you spend more than you need to. Don't listen to them


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## derrick (13 Jan 2022)

I have an old Garrard deck, got to be 40 years old, going through a Naim amp and B &W speakers The wife bought me a Project deck a few years ago, was one of the lower end one's, The Garrard wins hands down.


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## cisamcgu (13 Jan 2022)

PaulB said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> I had some really good advice on here about a dash-cam I was buying last week so am asking the same question about getting back to playing vinyl records again.
> 
> ...


Turntable : Rega Planar 1 - £300
Amplifier : NAD 316BEE - £300
Speakers : Monitor Audio Bronze 50 - £280

This is approximately what I have. My speakers are a bit older, but the same model, and the TT is a Rega Planar 3 from about 30+ years ago


Andrew
I think it sounds excellent


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## MontyVeda (13 Jan 2022)

derrick said:


> I have an old Garrard deck, got to be 40 years old, going through a Naim amp and B &W speakers The wife bought me a Project deck a few years ago, was one of the lower end one's, The Garrard wins hands down.


depending on which Garrard deck you have... it's probably worth five times the price of a new Project 

@PaulB ...you don't need to spend a fortune. Decent speakers can cost under £150 (under £50 if you get a good 2nd hand deal). You needn't spend more than £100 on an amp (much less 2nd hand). Same with the turntable. Mine cost £5 from a charity shop about 25 years ago. Chances are you won't be able to hear the difference from a hi-fi system costing a couple of hundred and one costing a few grand... but i expect lots of cycling-audiophiles will pounce on me to tell me how wrong i am.


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## si_c (13 Jan 2022)

You need _at least_ an integrated amp (some, like mine, have an integrated pre-amp for TTs), a Turntable and Speakers, plus relevant cabling.

The reason you need a pre-amp is because the cartridge on the Turntable outputs a very low power signal so this needs boosting to a level that the amp can use, hence the pre-amp. Back in the good old days, most amps will have had a pre-amp built in (of varying quality), which allowed you to plug the TT into the Phono socket on the back.

The good news is you can still get an amp with a pre-amp built in. Cambridge Audio (Richer Sounds own brand IIRC) do the AXA35 which has a pre-amp built in, and the Cambridge Audio amps generally have a good reputation. I'd suggest pairing them with a reasonable quality set of bookshelf speakers, something like the Monitor Audio Bronze 100s and a Project T1 turntable. That should give you some change from £1000 for cables etc.

You can go quite crazy, but to be honest if you're just getting back into HiFi (like bikes it can get expensive fast) then this should give you a balanced system that meets your need of just listening to some music.


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## si_c (13 Jan 2022)

cisamcgu said:


> Turntable : Rega Planar 1 - £300
> Amplifier : NAD 316BEE - £300
> Speakers : Monitor Audio Bronze 50 - £280
> 
> ...


This also is a nice setup. I have the Project 1 turntable which I've had for about 15 years and it works great, I also have Monitor Audio S2 speakers (also about 15 years old), so I went that way as I know they sound good. Either would serve you very well.

The alternative might be to get a separate Phono Pre-Amp and a Headphone amp and headphones. This would probably cost a little less, but give better overall sound quality, but limited to headphones.


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## Drago (13 Jan 2022)

Im still listening to the system I assembled over time in the mid to late 80's. Hit ebay and sort yourself something similar for a few hundred sheets.


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## Profpointy (13 Jan 2022)

MontyVeda said:


> depending on which Garrard deck you have... it's probably worth five times the price of a new Project
> 
> @PaulB ...you don't need to spend a fortune. Decent speakers can cost under £150 (under £50 if you get a good 2nd hand deal). You needn't spend more than £100 on an amp (much less 2nd hand). Same with the turntable. Mine cost £5 from a charity shop about 25 years ago. Chances are you won't be able to hear the difference from a hi-fi system costing a couple of hundred and one costing a few grand... but i expect lots of cycling-audiophiles will pounce on me to tell me how wrong i am.



I seem to remember the SP25 was a quite poor and cheap unit, but the 401 and 301 with the distinctive stroboscope lines on the platter rim were very highly regarded, especially various aftermarket upgrades being done by enthusiasts. My uncle had one I think and he was very much into hi fi back in the day.

Did a quick look on ebay and a 401 being sold "for parts" had reached nearly a grand. That's
a bit nuts as you could probably get a working Linn for that.


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## slowmotion (13 Jan 2022)

cisamcgu said:


> Turntable : Rega Planar 1 - £300
> Amplifier : NAD 316BEE - £300
> Speakers : Monitor Audio Bronze 50 - £280
> 
> ...


A man of taste!


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## MontyVeda (13 Jan 2022)

Profpointy said:


> ...
> 
> Did a quick look on ebay and a 401 being sold "for parts" had reached nearly a grand. That's
> a bit nuts as you could probably get a working Linn for that.


yeah but... who wants to spend a grand on a turntable?

Seriously!


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## slowmotion (13 Jan 2022)

MontyVeda said:


> yeah but... who wants to spend a grand on a turntable?
> 
> Seriously!


Reconditioned Garrard 301s go for up to £2000.

They first came on the market in 1953. Utterly bonkers.


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## MontyVeda (13 Jan 2022)

slowmotion said:


> Reconditioned Garrard 301s go for up to £2000.


yeah but... who wants to spend a grand on a turntable, let alone two grand?

I'd much rather spend a grand on vinyl... two grand, even... in fact, I already have... probably several times!


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## slowmotion (13 Jan 2022)

MontyVeda said:


> yeah but... who wants to spend a grand on a turntable, let alone two grand?
> 
> I'd much rather spend a grand on vinyl... two grand, even... in fact, I already have... probably several times!


Plenty of people will drop a couple of grand on a turntable. My Rega dates to about 1990 and cost about £120. It's had a couple of new bootleg belts and some drops of oil in the main bearing. It still rotates.


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## yello (13 Jan 2022)

Around here, we have shops called 'trocs'. They're basically outlets for 2nd hand stuff, often house clearance. They usually have HiFi seperates, some of it very affordable, of all makes. Mostly amps, tuners, tape and cd players. Not often turntables though, dunno why but I could hazard a guess. If you know your stuff, you can kit yourself out with a decent system for sod all.

Anything like that in the UK?


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## DaveReading (13 Jan 2022)

I have a PL-12D somewhere up in the loft, but I'm currently using a cheapie Ion USB turntable which works fine with my elderly Cambridge Audio AV receiver using the same line-level inputs that my CD deck and tuner are connected to.


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## slowmotion (13 Jan 2022)

yello said:


> Around here, we have shops called 'trocs'. They're basically outlets for 2nd hand stuff, often house clearance. They usually have HiFi seperates, some of it very affordable, of all makes. Mostly amps, tuners, tape and cd players. Not often turntables though, dunno why but I could hazard a guess. If you know your stuff, you can kit yourself out with a decent system for sod all.
> 
> Anything like that in the UK?


Ebay is an excellent source of used hi-fi in the UK if you steer clear of cult items.


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## Cycleops (13 Jan 2022)

If you don't want to spend too much you could buy a Denon mini system (well reviewed) which comes with speakers for around £400. Plug in a turntable, rega, whatever, for £300. Away you go.


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## cisamcgu (13 Jan 2022)

Cycleops said:


> If you don't want to spend too much you could buy a Denon mini system (well reviewed) which comes with speakers for around £400. Plug in a turntable, rega, whatever, for £300. Away you go.


An excellent idea - that way you get a good CD and tuner into the bargain

Denon DT1 - about £250 inc. speakers. Depending on the TT you might need a phono pre-amp between about £20 and £15,000 (This one !!!!)


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## PaulB (13 Jan 2022)

This is all good info chaps but still confusion reigns! Keep them coming though because I'm getting an education here.


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## ColinJ (13 Jan 2022)

MontyVeda said:


> yeah but... who wants to spend a grand on a turntable?
> 
> Seriously!


A mate of mine spent £500 on his pair of loudspeaker cables...

Seriously!


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## FishFright (13 Jan 2022)

cisamcgu said:


> Turntable : Rega Planar 1 - £300
> Amplifier : NAD 316BEE - £300
> Speakers : Monitor Audio Bronze 50 - £280
> 
> ...



I have a old Planar 3 too , the mains driven model. In need of a new cartridge really but still sounds nice .


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## Profpointy (14 Jan 2022)

MontyVeda said:


> yeah but... who wants to spend a grand on a turntable?
> 
> Seriously!



Mmm, I spent over £500 on my Linn in 1983 or whatever it was. That's probably a lot more in real terms than a grand is today

Not saying it was a wise purchase, but it was vastly superior to anything else I'd heard. Don't think I'd do so today as CDs are now ubiquitous, but back then it knocked spots off the CD players then available and records were much cheaper to an CDs.

I should probably fettle it and flog it


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## Profpointy (14 Jan 2022)

ColinJ said:


> A mate of mine spent £500 on his pair of loudspeaker cables...
> 
> Seriously!



Now that really is nonsense


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## ColinJ (14 Jan 2022)

Profpointy said:


> Now that really is nonsense


He replaced his old cables which had cost him £50!

I wouldn't pay more than £10 for a pair of speaker cables.


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## Drago (14 Jan 2022)

Theres more guff spoken by the high priests of hifi about speaker cables, than just about every other piece of bullsheet in the world added together. They make politicians sound credible.


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## Cycleops (14 Jan 2022)

ColinJ said:


> A mate of mine spent £500 on his pair of loudspeaker cables...
> 
> Seriously!


And one of my mates spent more than that going over to electronic shifting.


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## NorthernDave (14 Jan 2022)

Cycleops said:


> If you don't want to spend too much you could buy a Denon mini system (well reviewed) which comes with speakers for around £400. Plug in a turntable, rega, whatever, for £300. Away you go.



^^^This is what I did.

Denon RCDM41DAB receiver, Wharfedale Diamond speakers and and Audio-Technia deck (part of Panasonic). All in, about £500 new.

While I'm under no impression that this is decent but hardly high end kit, the difference in sound quality over the Sony CD system it replaced is massive.

Or eBay / Facebook marketplace for some potential bargains.


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## raleighnut (14 Jan 2022)

A friend recently bought a Planar 2, sounds good but not as good as my old Thorens with coincidentally the same Arm fitted,(RB250) but the Thorens and the Linn LP12 are both based on the Acoustic Research design


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## si_c (14 Jan 2022)

yello said:


> Anything like that in the UK?


We have cash converters. Mostly it sells stolen goods.


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## yello (14 Jan 2022)

si_c said:


> We have cash converters. Mostly it sells stolen goods.


Yes, we have 'cash converters' too. They do have HiFi gear but it tends to be pricier than the trocs I mentioned. I couldn't comment on the provenance of their stock though!

Other subject; I've a brother that's a HiFi geek (so I know some of the names mentioned above!) and he talked me into changing the speaker cable on my then system. Not £500's worth but none-the-less more than I would naturally have spent. In fairness, it did make a difference even I could hear. And, yes, he would spend that kind of money on speaker cable!

I've always said I'd listen to music on pretty much anything, as it's the music that interests me, not the gear it's played on BUT it is undeniable that more expensive gear improves the experience. At the higher end (where I would not go) you're paying more and more for less and less difference (incremental?) Tbh, I'm not sure I can hear it (just as I have no appreciation for 'fine wines') but if that's your thing then cool, go for it. I'm sure the palate refines and you are rewarded for it.


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## GuyBoden (14 Jan 2022)

With hearing loss, is it really worth buying any expensive HiFi gear as you get older?


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## DaveReading (14 Jan 2022)

yello said:


> Yes, we have 'cash converters' too. They do have HiFi gear but it tends to be pricier than the trocs I mentioned. I couldn't comment on the provenance of their stock though!
> 
> Other subject; I've a brother that's a HiFi geek (so I know some of the names mentioned above!) and he talked me into changing the speaker cable on my then system. Not £500's worth but none-the-less more than I would naturally have spent. In fairness, it did make a difference even I could hear. And, yes, he would spend that kind of money on speaker cable!
> 
> I've always said I'd listen to music on pretty much anything, as it's the music that interests me, not the gear it's played on BUT it is undeniable that more expensive gear improves the experience. At the higher end (where I would not go) you're paying more and more for less and less difference (incremental?) Tbh, I'm not sure I can hear it (just as I have no appreciation for 'fine wines') but if that's your thing then cool, go for it. I'm sure the palate refines and you are rewarded for it.


Yes, the Law of Diminishing Returns applies to hi-fi, as it does to pretty well everything else.


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## yello (14 Jan 2022)

Yes, "diminishing returns". That was the phrase I was looking for. Thanks


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## Cycleops (14 Jan 2022)

I think the best experience you can have listening to music is with a pair of good quality headphones. No need to worry about upsetting the neighbours too.


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## fossyant (14 Jan 2022)

Drago said:


> Im still listening to the system I assembled over time in the mid to late 80's. Hit ebay and sort yourself something similar for a few hundred sheets.



Same here - JVC separates system, cost me over £500 in 1986. Still going strong, and have popped a tiny bluetooth receiver on the 'tape2' input so can stream from our phones too


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## raleighnut (14 Jan 2022)

GuyBoden said:


> With hearing loss, is it really worth buying any expensive HiFi gear as you get older?
> View attachment 626374


Yep those graphs demonstrate why it is better to have quality equipment as you age, you can turn it up louder before it distorts.


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## DaveReading (14 Jan 2022)

yello said:


> Yes, "diminishing returns". That was the phrase I was looking for. Thanks


My pleasure.

Of course the Law of S*d also applies.


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## Cycleops (14 Jan 2022)

raleighnut said:


> Yep those graphs demonstrate why it is better to have quality equipment as you age, you can turn it up louder before it distorts.


What’s that?


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## Cycleops (14 Jan 2022)

When you get into ‘separates’ you need to consider compatibility. Some speakers need a lot of driving. Perhaps best to buy a system that comes with.
As previously stated the laws of diminishing returns kick in quite early as price rises.


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## GuyBoden (14 Jan 2022)

raleighnut said:


> Yep those graphs demonstrate why it is better to have quality equipment as you age, you can turn it up louder before it distorts.


But, you still won't be able to hear the high frequency detail, unless you can buy a new set of ears.

My high frequency hearing diminished a while ago due to years of playing in Jazz bands, I blame the brass section.


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## SpokeyDokey (14 Jan 2022)

GuyBoden said:


> But, you still won't be able to hear the high frequency detail, unless you can buy a new set of ears.
> 
> My high frequency hearing diminished a while ago due to years of playing in Jazz bands, I blame the brass section.



Although RN's comment still stands as correct imo.

In general, a lot of cheaper equipment simply has 'unusable sound' - once the sound volume starts to increase and goes beyond a certain level then noticable distortion kicks in and you need to throttle back.


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## Profpointy (14 Jan 2022)

MontyVeda said:


> yeah but... who wants to spend a grand on a turntable, let alone two grand?
> 
> I'd much rather spend a grand on vinyl... two grand, even... in fact, I already have... probably several times!



Theres wisdom in that. Quite a few hi fi enthusiasts do seem more interested in listening to hi fi than listening to music


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## DCBassman (14 Jan 2022)

ColinJ said:


> A mate of mine spent £500 on his pair of loudspeaker cables...
> 
> Seriously!


Bananas


Profpointy said:


> Now that really is nonsense


Correct


GuyBoden said:


> With hearing loss, is it really worth buying any expensive HiFi gear as you get older?
> View attachment 626374


These graphs don't go low enough for me...

I no longer have any vinyl, but, given my extreme hearing loss, I'd get a TT and cheap preamp and plug them into my Yamaha YST-MS30 2.1 computer speakers, which sound remarkably good for what they are.


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## presta (14 Jan 2022)

Drago said:


> Im still listening to the system I assembled over time in the mid to late 80's. Hit ebay and sort yourself something similar for a few hundred sheets.


I still have the Pioneer system in the lounge that I bought in 1984, but it hasn't been used in a long while. Nowadays, if I want to listen to music I put You Tube on the laptop or TV, they have a bigger record collection than me.


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## ColinJ (14 Jan 2022)

Cycleops said:


> I think the best experience you can have listening to music is with a pair of good quality headphones. No need to worry about upsetting the neighbours too.


I often watch TV between midnight and as late as 04:00. I always listen on headphones. Not only do I not need to worry about annoying my neighbours but the sound quality is great too.


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## GuyBoden (14 Jan 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Although RN's comment still stands as correct imo.
> 
> In general, a lot of cheaper equipment simply has 'unusable sound' - once the sound volume starts to increase and goes beyond a certain level then noticable distortion kicks in and you need to throttle back.



An inexpensive 300Watt Class D amp and good quality wide range 400Watt speakers is all I need. I plug what'ever I need into it, Blueray, Stingray, CDs, Irish electronic uilleann pipes and my old scratched BBC sound effects records of tweeting birds of the British isles .


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## MontyVeda (14 Jan 2022)

ColinJ said:


> A mate of mine spent £500 on his pair of loudspeaker cables...
> 
> Seriously!


a member of the 'more money than sense' brigade. 


Profpointy said:


> Theres wisdom in that. Quite a few hi fi enthusiasts do seem more interested in listening to hi fi than listening to music


They don't even listen to hi-fi, they're mostly interested in trying to impress people with how much they've spent.


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## SkipdiverJohn (14 Jan 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Although RN's comment still stands as correct imo.
> 
> In general, a lot of cheaper equipment simply has 'unusable sound' - once the sound volume starts to increase and goes beyond a certain level then noticable distortion kicks in and you need to throttle back.



A lot of audio equipment is marketed on the "mine's bigger than yours" principle, where the selling point is the power output wattage. However this stuff mainly operates in what is known as Class B, where the waveform is split in two and each half handled by one of a pair of push-pull amplifiers. The problem is the bit where the two outputs join up often isn't aligned and you get a lot of distortion which makes high volumes so unpleasant you can't listen to the equipment turned right up even if your neighbours are OK about it.
On the other hand a Class A amplifier, which are often valve, may not have very impressive output numbers on paper, but they'll go as loud as they can go without the sort of harsh distortion that makes your ears jangle. All the watts are useable.


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## swee'pea99 (14 Jan 2022)

As others have mooted, ebay + online research + patience. £500 should get you a setup that sounds lovely.


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## SpokeyDokey (14 Jan 2022)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> A lot of audio equipment is marketed on the "mine's bigger than yours" principle, where the selling point is the power output wattage. However this stuff mainly operates in what is known as Class B, where the waveform is split in two and each half handled by one of a pair of push-pull amplifiers. The problem is the bit where the two outputs join up often isn't aligned and you get a lot of distortion which makes high volumes so unpleasant you can't listen to the equipment turned right up even if your neighbours are OK about it.
> On the other hand a Class A amplifier, which are often valve, may not have very impressive output numbers on paper, but they'll go as loud as they can go without the sort of harsh distortion that makes your ears jangle. All the watts are useable.


Yes, I agree.

Fortunately we live in a detached house so we can go really loud.

Previous amplifier was Sugden Masterclass which is Class A (notional 33w) as you will no doubt be aware. Heat output was like a mini radiator.

We also have a Sugden A21a (which I really ought to sell) which was part of a secondary system - notional 25w and also Class A but it has some serious low distortion clout when wound up.

The Masterclass was replaced with a much more compact offering from Cyrus - this also goes very loud into 6 ohm Dali Oberons - not a Class A amp' but it has some clever design features to minimise distortion. We play a lot of EDM!


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## raleighnut (14 Jan 2022)

GuyBoden said:


> An inexpensive 300Watt Class D amp and good quality wide range 400Watt speakers is all I need. I plug what'ever I need into it, Blueray, Stingray, CDs, Irish electronic uilleann pipes and my old scratched BBC sound effects records of tweeting birds of the British isles .


My QUAD 303's are only 45 watts per channel, admitedly I use 2 of them (bi-amped so that each drive unit has its own channel) but they gp plenty loud enough,


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## SpokeyDokey (14 Jan 2022)

raleighnut said:


> My QUAD 303's are only 45 watts per channel, admitedly I use 2 of them (bi-amped so that each drive unit has its own channel) but they gp plenty loud enough,


You forgot to post your picture of them. 😅 

Nice kit!


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## raleighnut (14 Jan 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> You forgot to post your picture of them. 😅
> 
> Nice kit!






normal set up





bi-amped set up


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## SpokeyDokey (14 Jan 2022)

raleighnut said:


> View attachment 626448
> 
> normal set up
> 
> ...



That's better. 😁


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## SpokeyDokey (14 Jan 2022)

PaulB said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> I had some really good advice on here about a dash-cam I was buying last week so am asking the same question about getting back to playing vinyl records again.
> 
> ...


What about a nice Dansette?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/255327906867


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## bitsandbobs (14 Jan 2022)

FishFright said:


> I have a old Planar 3 too , the mains driven model. In need of a new cartridge really but still sounds nice .



Planar 3 is quite a bit superior to Planar 1. If you are in any way prone to "upgradeitis", Planar 1 is not a good buy as it's really not worth upgrading, whereas you could have some fun messing about a Planar 3 and get it sounding better. I bought a Planar 1 a year ago and regret it!


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## FishFright (14 Jan 2022)

Hands up those who criticise high end audio and have actually spent anytime listening to any .


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## FishFright (14 Jan 2022)

bitsandbobs said:


> Planar 3 is quite a bit superior to Planar 1. If you are in any way prone to "upgradeitis", Planar 1 is not a good buy as it's really not worth upgrading, whereas you could have some fun messing about a Planar 3 and get it sounding better. I bought a Planar 1 a year ago and regret it!



Mine was a gift from a friend with some lovely high end stuff.


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## bitsandbobs (14 Jan 2022)

FishFright said:


> Mine was a gift from a friend with some lovely high end stuff.



Nice friends you got!


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## FishFright (14 Jan 2022)

bitsandbobs said:


> Nice friends you got!



I know !


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## MontyVeda (14 Jan 2022)

FishFright said:


> Hands up those who criticise high end audio and have actually spent anytime listening to any .


I have... I'd still rather spend my money on the music rather then the 'high end' kit to play it on. The set up I have sounds fine to me and that's all that matters 

anyway... @PaulB ...what do you currently listen to music on?


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## Cycleops (14 Jan 2022)

raleighnut said:


> My QUAD 303's are only 45 watts per channel, admitedly I use 2 of them (bi-amped so that each drive unit has its own channel) but they gp plenty loud enough,


Oh okay. I thought you might be boasting about these:


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## Profpointy (14 Jan 2022)

FishFright said:


> Hands up those who criticise high end audio and have actually spent anytime listening to any .



Well.... I guess I have. I've got medium nice kit, albeit currently in disarray, and when it was all plugged in I had a professional level studio sound card (which I got secondhand), a middling amplifier: Cyrrus 2 previously then a Meridian, and some astonishingly good Kef 105/3 speakers - apparently £3k new (£500 secondhand). All pretty good kit, and I don't think I'd have been disappointed had I gone crazy and splashed the £3k for the Kefs new. I do appreciate good sound, and to a degree at least, you get what you pay for. 

But I had occasion to hear an extremely high end system after going round to visit some hi-fi consultants (I'd bought a minor item off them via fleabay). I got the full treatment - and just to be clear they weren't realistically going to sell me a system, they were just genuine enthusiasts. But the the thing was their system sounded awful to me - and to put it in perspective they had something like £60k of Naim amplifers, a £10k digital streamer thingy, also Naim and a fully upgrade Linn which was I guess also £10k. The speakers no doubt in the same ball park. It just sounded unpleasant to me. They also had some odd ideas: the speakers supposedly would go up to 60kHz - when even the youngest amongst us cant't hear beyond 20kHz and maybe 15kHz is a push for many of, and even if you could hear it it ain't on the record in the first place. They had an explanation for why it still mattered, but it was utter bollocks. They genuinely believed all this and were nice people but there was a lot of nonsense too.

These days, the cheap kit is so much better than it was too, but that said, I'm so pleased with my Kef speakers, as I was with my Linn record player back in the day. 

I must finish getting it all fired up again





after the great PC motherboard disaster!


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## mistyoptic (14 Jan 2022)

Profpointy said:


> . They had an explanation for why it still mattered, but it was utter bollocks. They genuinely believed all this and were nice people but there was a lot of nonsense too.


to be a true hifi “aficionado” you need to be like the White Queen in Alice and be able to “believe six impossible things before breakfast”. I’ve been to hifi shows and, like you, some of the systems left me cold. On the other hand after one demo I wanted to applaud, the system sounded sooooo good. Cost more than I paid for my house, mind!

Some of the stuff they spout defies belief. Cryo-treated mains fuses for £45 anyone?


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## mistyoptic (14 Jan 2022)

PaulB said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> I had some really good advice on here about a dash-cam I was buying last week so am asking the same question about getting back to playing vinyl records again.
> 
> ...


I guess the other point which needs to be addressed is “how much vinyl do you have?” If you’ve got loads from BITD that’s one thing. If you’re planning to start buying it afresh, I would ask “why?”

This will determine how much it’s worth spending. Also, what will you play it through. Do you have some sound system to attach your vinyl player to, or do you want a complete system?


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## PaulB (14 Jan 2022)

MontyVeda said:


> Firstly, what do you currently listen to music on?
> 
> Can you plug a turntable into that? (via an Aux input, possibly).
> 
> ...


Well I don't listen to music at home much any more. I used to only listen in the car but my new vehicle doesn't have a CD player and I don't have one round the house. I do have a Foxl bluetooth speaker which I use if we have people round but other than that, I'm starting from scratch really. Hoping to get the old and newer vinyl records spinning PDQ.


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## Profpointy (14 Jan 2022)

This has been posted before but still makes me smile. I reckon the cartoonist is mocking himself as the kit portrayed is very realistic so the artist is clearly something of an enthusiast himseld

Back in the day, hi end vinyl was genuinely superior to CD. Basically there was no comparison, not just subtle as CD was seriously over hyped. These days not so much, as digital technology has advanced so much and got so cheap. It's even possible to get high quality digital downloads that are the same as the original studio masters before it even gets on the vinyl record; admittedly these are higher quality than CD, but only slightly.


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## mistyoptic (14 Jan 2022)

Profpointy said:


> This has been posted before but still makes me smile. I reckon the cartoonist is mocking himself as the kit portrayed is very realistic so the artist is clearly something of an enthusiast himseld
> 
> Back in the day, hi end vinyl was genuinely superior to CD. Basically there was no comparison, not just subtle as CD was seriously over hyped. These days not so much, as digital technology has advanced so much and got so cheap. It's even possible to get high quality digital downloads that are the same as the original studio masters before it even gets on the vinyl record; admittedly these are higher quality than CD, but only slightly.
> View attachment 626514


In a similar but older vein


View: https://youtu.be/7fJmmDkvQyc


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## Smokin Joe (14 Jan 2022)

PaulB said:


> Well I don't listen to music at home much any more. I used to only listen in the car but my new vehicle doesn't have a CD player and I don't have one round the house.


I would think your in-car sound system has either a USB or memory card slot? It is easy enough to copy CD's onto them and take in the car.


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## yello (14 Jan 2022)

FishFright said:


> Hands up those who criticise high end audio and have actually spent anytime listening to any .


I don't criticise it but neither do I prioritise it. I've listened to brother no. 1's set up and, yes, the sound quality is far superior to mine, I can hear that as clear as day, but I'm kinda 'so what?' about it tbh. That's his thing and that's cool. It's not for me though.


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## Bonefish Blues (15 Jan 2022)

I stopped, very deliberately, maybe 13-14 years ago as I recognised the treadmill I was on and the only thing I added since was a little media player & streamer.

Anyhow, What Hi Fi's take contains an ultra-simple solution which looks good:

https://www.whathifi.com/features/3-great-music-systems-for-playing-vinyl


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## Cycleops (15 Jan 2022)

Heres one for all you HiFi buffs:


View: https://youtu.be/pujXTj4X_I4


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## Profpointy (15 Jan 2022)

A pal of mine was a photographer and one of the magazines he was assigned to covered hi fi (at the moderate end of things). He wasn't himself that interested but recounts an article where they'd covered the stereos owned by three professional musicians: a jazz guy, a rock session musician and a classical player. The article then went on to choose upgraded sets ups for each tailored to their music genres.

The interesting thing was they'd all had quite poor systems, even though they could all hear and appreciate the upgraded set ups. The implication was they were appreciating the actual music and weren't particularly troubled by quality of reproduction, despite all them presumably having a good ear.


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## SkipdiverJohn (15 Jan 2022)

Profpointy said:


> The interesting thing was they'd all had quite poor systems, even though they could all hear and appreciate the upgraded set ups. The implication was they were appreciating the actual music and weren't particularly troubled by quality of reproduction, despite all them presumably having a good ear.



Another explanation could be that if they spent a lot of time playing instruments for a living, maybe they didn't actually spend very much time listening to recorded music so weren't that fussed.


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## MontyVeda (15 Jan 2022)

PaulB said:


> Well I don't listen to music at home much any more. I used to only listen in the car but my new vehicle doesn't have a CD player and I don't have one round the house. I do have a Foxl bluetooth speaker which I use if we have people round but other than that, I'm starting from scratch really. Hoping to get the old and newer vinyl records spinning PDQ.


When it comes to buying vinyl, both new and 2nd hand... I can't fault discogs. 

It's like Ebay, with independent sellers from all over the world and I've only had to deal with one complete arse selling on Discogs out of well over fifty purchases to date. I listen to a lot of niche music, the sort where you tend to buy their latest LP direct from the artists' website, or their bandcamp page and have recently discovered that i can always find a better deal on discogs, eg. getting a brand new sealed LP that would/should be around £30 (inc P&P) for under £20 (inc P&P). I guess the dealers get better deals than us buyers do.

Every time I wonder into HMV and look at their vinyl, I'm always staggered by their prices, and on the rare occasion they do have something i want, i know i'll get it far cheaper on Discogs


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## raleighnut (16 Jan 2022)

Profpointy said:


> A pal of mine was a photographer and one of the magazines he was assigned to covered hi fi (at the moderate end of things). He wasn't himself that interested but recounts an article where they'd covered the stereos owned by three professional musicians: a jazz guy, a rock session musician and a classical player. The article then went on to choose upgraded sets ups for each tailored to their music genres.
> 
> The interesting thing was they'd all had quite poor systems, even though they could all hear and appreciate the upgraded set ups. The implication was they were appreciating the actual music and weren't particularly troubled by quality of reproduction, despite all them presumably having a good ear.





SkipdiverJohn said:


> Another explanation could be that if they spent a lot of time playing instruments for a living, maybe they didn't actually spend very much time listening to recorded music so weren't that fussed.


i think it is far more likely that they simply hadn't heard what a good system is capable of, most people have no idea hence the popularity of 'all in one' stack systems (music centres repackaged) and the number of people who think Bang and Olafson are 'high end' (the most expensive music centres in the world)
Funny thing is most 'high end' amplifiers and speakers are made here in the UK with companies like QUAD, Linn, Sugden, Naim. Bowers & Wilkins, Mission/Cyrus, Leak, Radford, Kef and many more based here although IAG (International Audio Group) who now own QUAD and Mission farm production out to China . Some good stuff is made in America (Don't mention Bose to me) and in Europe and a lot of quality 'sources' are made in Japan (CD players, Cartridges and Cassette players/Open Reel Recorders) but they've never quite mastered amplifiers although i started with a Pioneer (SA540) that was OK most of their stuff sounds 'spitty' and 'thin' in comparison with the tonal balance of a quality amp.


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## GuyBoden (18 Jan 2022)

GuyBoden said:


> An inexpensive 300Watt Class D amp and good quality wide range 400Watt speakers is all I need. I plug what'ever I need into it, Blueray, Stingray, CDs, Irish electronic uilleann pipes and my old scratched BBC sound effects records of tweeting birds of the British isles .





raleighnut said:


> My QUAD 303's are only 45 watts per channel, admitedly I use 2 of them (bi-amped so that each drive unit has its own channel) but they gp plenty loud enough,


But, my multipurpose 400watt speakers and 300watt "D class" amp will come in handy when I'm asked to play my free Jazz rendition of "Danny Boy" on Irish electronic uilleann pipes at Wembley stadium. I've been told by my online "Influencer" that you need, multiple options, to make it big, in today's ever changing world.


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## mistyoptic (18 Jan 2022)

GuyBoden said:


> But, my multipurpose 400watt speakers and 300watt "D class" amp will come in handy when I'm asked to play my free Jazz rendition of "Danny Boy" on Irish electronic uilleann pipes at Wembley stadium. I've been told by my online "Influencer" that you need, multiple options, to make it big, in today's ever changing world.


Should we all get your autograph now, before you’re famous?


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## GuyBoden (18 Jan 2022)

mistyoptic said:


> Should we all get your autograph now, before you’re famous?


My autograph will only be available at an exorbitant price via my future "Crowd Funding" website, but there will be only a limited edition of three billion downloads available (maybe more depending on demand).


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## swee'pea99 (18 Jan 2022)

Profpointy said:


> A pal of mine was a photographer and one of the magazines he was assigned to covered hi fi (at the moderate end of things). He wasn't himself that interested but recounts an article where they'd covered the stereos owned by three professional musicians: a jazz guy, a rock session musician and a classical player. The article then went on to choose upgraded sets ups for each tailored to their music genres.
> 
> The interesting thing was they'd all had quite poor systems, even though they could all hear and appreciate the upgraded set ups. The implication was they were appreciating the actual music and weren't particularly troubled by quality of reproduction, despite all them presumably having a good ear.


I recall teasing a friend of a friend who was seriously into classical music - she was a violinist by trade if I remember rightly - saying 'how come all you music buffs have such crappy hi-fis?', to which she responded: 'Because we care about the music, not the machinery.'


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## Bonefish Blues (18 Jan 2022)

swee'pea99 said:


> I recall teasing a friend of a friend who was seriously into classical music - she was a violinist by trade if I remember rightly - saying 'how come all you music buffs have such crappy hi-fis?', to which she responded: 'Because we care about the music, not the machinery.'


Something that's often forgotten, I agree. The number of times I used to hear (when keen) something like 'come and listen to my new amp' and suchlike, with the music quite incidental.


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## raleighnut (18 Jan 2022)

GuyBoden said:


> But, my multipurpose 400watt speakers and 300watt "D class" amp will come in handy when I'm asked to play my free Jazz rendition of "Danny Boy" on Irish electronic uilleann pipes at Wembley stadium. I've been told by my online "Influencer" that you need, multiple options, to make it big, in today's ever changing world.


Ah but will the '300w Class D' Amplifier still be repairable after 55 years like my QUAD 303 is, there's no 'sucking of teeth' and being told 'You can't get the bits anymore' with QUAD equipment or looking for repair shops. You simply pop it in it's box and post it back to Huntingdon where the service dept. is located. 

Anyway we're getting away from the point of this thread..........................i'd still recommend the Rega but with maybe an upgrade to the cartridge, the turntable comes with a Rega badged Audio Technica but with about 3 times the price tag that AT sells them for and the arm is more than capable of doing justice to a far better one. You also need to factor in a proper support to put it on, either a dedicated TT table on concrete flooring or a wall support if the floor is joists and planks.


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## FishFright (18 Jan 2022)

swee'pea99 said:


> I recall teasing a friend of a friend who was seriously into classical music - she was a violinist by trade if I remember rightly - saying 'how come all you music buffs have such crappy hi-fis?', to which she responded: 'Because we care about the music, not the machinery.'



My hifi buff friend is an ex professional violin player and has a system that costs many thousands, Why ? Because she loves music and it sounds so much better on her setups .


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## Cycleops (18 Jan 2022)

View: https://youtu.be/DvswW6M7bMo


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## raleighnut (18 Jan 2022)

Cycleops said:


> View: https://youtu.be/DvswW6M7bMo



Very funny for a comedy sketch but the thought that any HiFi shop would behave like that is stupidn, the salesmen a (and Women) were paid on commission (when the shops existed) and I've always found them very helpful as most are enthusiasts themselves.

Sadly they are few and far these days, for instance in Leicester there were 7 or 8 quality dealers and what is lefr now.....Richer Sounds


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## Cycleops (18 Jan 2022)

Of course you wouldn't get that kind of attitude in hi-fi shops of yore just like you were unlikely to wget a builder going into a hardware store and asking for 'Fork 'andles'

But there was always an undertone of superior knowledge amongst the assistants and you always imagined that they were thinking as in the sketch, which is why it's so funny.

I imagine that salespeople in car showrooms are likewise enthusiasts.


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## Profpointy (18 Jan 2022)

Cycleops said:


> Of course you wouldn't get that kind of attitude in hi-fi shops of yore just like you were unlikely to wget a builder going into a hardware store and asking for 'Fork 'andles'
> 
> But there was always an undertone of superior knowledge amongst the assistants and you always imagined that they were thinking as in the sketch, which is why it's so funny.
> 
> I imagine that salespeople in car showrooms are likewise enthusiasts.



Cycle shops aren't wholly immune to that sort of thing either


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## raleighnut (18 Jan 2022)

Cycleops said:


> I imagine that salespeople in car showrooms are likewise enthusiasts.


Yeah but you can't go into a Car Showroom and say " I'd like this engine, that gearbox and this rear axle but could you fit it in this car body but with these seats and that dash" and him to say "Well I think this engine would work better"
Now a hundred years ago you could, you'd buy a rolling chassis from say Bentley or Rolls Royce (amongst others) with your choice of engine and gearbox and take it to a Coach Builder and specify what style of body you wanted (2 door, 4 door, open top, phaeton or saloon) and even what type of seats in whatever material and colour and which timber was used in the dash etc.


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## Smokin Joe (18 Jan 2022)

Cycleops said:


> I imagine that salespeople in car showrooms are likewise enthusiasts.


In my experience the salesmen in car showrooms know feck all about cars other than what's in the brochure. But they know how to skin you with expensive finance and non essential add ons.


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## ColinJ (18 Jan 2022)

raleighnut said:


> Very funny for a comedy sketch but the thought that any HiFi shop would behave like that is stupidn, the salesmen a (and Women) were paid on commission (when the shops existed) and I've always found them very helpful as most are enthusiasts themselves.


You reckon that people selling things in shops don't do things like that? Here's what I posted the last time that NTNOCN sketch appeared...



ColinJ said:


> I got the exact bike shop equivalent of that when I got back into cycling 30 years ago.
> 
> ColinJ: Hello, I'd like to buy some cycling gloves please
> 
> ...


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## Profpointy (18 Jan 2022)

ColinJ said:


> You reckon that people selling things in shops don't do things like that? Here's what I posted the last time that NTNOCN sketch appeared...



Mitts to me would be short for mittens which would be a different thing entirely.


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## ColinJ (18 Jan 2022)

Profpointy said:


> Mitts to me would be short for mittens which would be a different thing entirely.


I wouldn't have minded being told in a matter-of-fact way that 'mitts' was the accepted word for them. It was the condescending attitude and sneering voice of the shop owner that wound me up!


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## MontyVeda (19 Jan 2022)

@ColinJ ...reminds me of the time i walked into Leisure Lakes looking for a front pannier rack, only to be told they don't sell them because no one uses them 

@PaulB ...how you getting on with looking for a turntable set up?


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## swee'pea99 (19 Jan 2022)

raleighnut said:


> an upgrade to the cartridge


Indeed. As important as turntables, speakers and amps are to the sound, it's the cartridge + needle that's the crux of any system. I always liken it to the lens on a camera - your shutter speeds can be more or less accurate, your metering so so, but it's your lens quality that actually defines how good a result you can get.


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## Cycleops (19 Jan 2022)

swee'pea99 said:


> Indeed. As important as turntables, speakers and amps are to the sound, it's the cartridge + needle that's the crux of any system. I always liken it to the lens on a camera - your shutter speeds can be more or less accurate, your metering so so, but it's your lens quality that actually defines how good a result you can get.


Very true, but unfortunately that’s when all the goobledegook kicks in. Do you want moving coil or moving magnet, should you buy Ortofon Shure or something else ?  But it’s meat and potato to the Hi if nuts.


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## Bonefish Blues (19 Jan 2022)

Cycleops said:


> Very true, but unfortunately that’s when all the goobledegook kicks in. Do you want moving coil or moving magnet, should you buy Ortofon Shure or something else ?  But it’s meat and potato to the Hi if nuts.


King Edwards or Desiree?


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## Brads (19 Jan 2022)

Project debut carbon turntable 
Onkyo A-9010 amp 
Acoustic Energy bookshelf speakers

Braw


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## FishFright (19 Jan 2022)

Cycleops said:


> Very true, but unfortunately that’s when all the goobledegook kicks in. Do you want moving coil or moving magnet, should you buy Ortofon Shure or something else ?  But it’s meat and potato to the Hi if nuts.



Rather like any other knowledge it stops being goobledegook when you start learning and stop delighting in your own ignorance.


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## GuyBoden (20 Jan 2022)

Digital recording studio equipment has improved immensely over the years, the bit rate has moved from the early 16bit to 64bit. This has improved the sound enormously, even compared to the best old style analogue studio tape.

Nearly all new recordings released on vinyl are rendered using music recorded using digital equipment, I doubt if any new recordings on vinyl sound better than a 64bit or even a 32bit uncompressed sound file.

To be clear, I'm not talking about the dreadful standard CD quality or over compressed sound files, in my opinion a decent hi resolution sound file will have more clarity and dynamics than the vinyl equivalent.

If you have listened to a decent studio quality 32bit or 64bit sound file, you will know the difference I'm hearing.


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## raleighnut (20 Jan 2022)

GuyBoden said:


> Digital recording studio equipment has improved immensely over the years, the bit rate has moved from the early 16bit to 64bit. This has improved the sound enormously, even compared to the best old style analogue studio tape.
> 
> Nearly all new recordings released on vinyl are rendered using music recorded using digital equipment, I doubt if any new recordings on vinyl sound better than a 64bit or even a 32bit uncompressed sound file.
> 
> ...


Yebbut that is still using PCM recordings, DSD is far better


View: https://youtu.be/QuCh_AMNvic

You may know DSD better as SACD


View: https://youtu.be/IzEiu1WRA9o


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## mistyoptic (20 Jan 2022)




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## Cycleops (21 Jan 2022)

I think we may on this for a while longer yet.

And all the OP wanted to know was which turntable and amp to buy


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## mistyoptic (21 Jan 2022)

@PaulB 

Saw this system in the shop window today and thought of you. I’ve had experience with QAcoustics speakers and been pleased with them. Not top end, but nor is the price

https://listenaudio.co.uk/product/rega-q-acoustics-turntable-system-package-system-1/


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## MontyVeda (21 Jan 2022)

GuyBoden said:


> Digital recording studio equipment has improved immensely over the years, the bit rate has moved from the early 16bit to 64bit. This has improved the sound enormously, even compared to the best old style analogue studio tape.
> 
> Nearly all new recordings released on vinyl are rendered using music recorded using digital equipment, I doubt if any new recordings on vinyl sound better than a 64bit or even a 32bit uncompressed sound file.
> 
> ...


So long as it comes in a nicely designed 12" sleeve, I don't care much for the bitrate.


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## FishFright (22 Jan 2022)

GuyBoden said:


> Digital recording studio equipment has improved immensely over the years, the bit rate has moved from the early 16bit to 64bit. This has improved the sound enormously, even compared to the best old style analogue studio tape.
> 
> Nearly all new recordings released on vinyl are rendered using music recorded using digital equipment, I doubt if any new recordings on vinyl sound better than a 64bit or even a 32bit uncompressed sound file.
> 
> ...



I've not heard any 32 bit stuff but I love the detail in the quiet passages of a 24/96 recording.


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