# Training for hills when you don't have any?



## cyclingsheep (12 Nov 2011)

In a moment of madness I have signed up to to Etape du Tour Act 2 next year to celebrate my 40th. My issue is that it is a very long and hilly course but I have nothing you'd call a decent hill to train on (Box Hill is about as good as it gets and having cycled Alpe d'Huez previously I know that won't really cut it). So my question is, how do I train for hills if I don't have any to train on? I have a turbo trainer and am just expecting to get miles in over winter, occasional trips to Nth Wales will let me know how I'm progressing but really don't have a clue what I should be doing. Any help greatfully appreciated.


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## lukesdad (12 Nov 2011)

Put the front wheel up on a block and wind up the resistance. 

Or mtb through the winter you ve got some great stuff on your doorstep. Even the outside loop of richmond park would be better than the road.


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## BrumJim (12 Nov 2011)

How about a day or weekend away to somewhere seriously hilly, such as Mid Wales, Snowdonia, Devon/Cornwall, Lake District?


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## Telemark (12 Nov 2011)

The strong headwind will be your friend  

T


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## Steve H (12 Nov 2011)

Act2 looks really tough! Huge amount of climbing involved. Respect for signing up for a great challenge.

Definitely need a few trips to some hilly areas to tackle some of the steep stuff on a regular basis. Also just think you need to do some long sustained efforts. Even if you only have flat roads. Go for long bouts at pretty high effort levels will demand the higher levels of power you'll need for those mountains.


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## avsd (12 Nov 2011)

Take a look at:


http://www.mammothlifestyle.co.uk/Downloads/marmotte_guide.pdf


It is about training for the Marmotte but most of the advice will carry across to the L'Etape.

Best of luck,


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## HLaB (12 Nov 2011)

I don't know if a sufferfest hill climb dvd may help


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## Ghost Donkey (12 Nov 2011)

Good man :-) I'm in the same boat with IM70.3 next June which is pretty hilly compared to where I live. Ok, not quite the same boat or anywhere near the same league but I have similar concerns.The nearest hills to me are far away so I can ride over on a Sunday morning but I'll have to do some hill specific turbo sessions in the build up to the race in the evenings where time is short.


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## PK99 (12 Nov 2011)

lukesdad said:


> Or mtb through the winter you ve got some great stuff on your doorstep. Even the outside loop of richmond park would be better than the road.





I disagree on that, the Tamisn trail is a doddle compared to the road round the park


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## marzjennings (12 Nov 2011)

Hill climbing is just more resistance, so add some more resistance to you normal flat land riding, i.e. ride faster in a higher gear.

If you normally ride around at 14-15mph, knock it up to 16-17mph. You need to increase your flat land speed until you feel like you're hill climbing and then hold it there, easy. 

Pedaling is pedaling regardless of angle of slope.


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## Crankarm (12 Nov 2011)

There are some steep hills around London ride each of them say 10 times in succession or until you can ride no more. The Chilterns have some very steep but very short climbs. Just ride them lots of times. How about the Devil's Staircase or the mountain roads around Machynlleth some seriously steep ones here.


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## fossyant (14 Nov 2011)

You are going to have to find hills, simple. Hill climbing is not like riding on the flat with more resistance (big gears/tyres) - there is a technique too.

Circuits of that bump called Box hill might help.


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## ColinJ (14 Nov 2011)

marzjennings said:


> Hill climbing is just more resistance, so add some more resistance to you normal flat land riding, i.e. ride faster in a higher gear.


It isn't, actually, unless you ride fixed, because you can't freewheel on a climb to relax your muscles if they start to tense up. I discovered that when I went to Spain and tackled a 1,000m climb. 

I do lots of 300 metre climbs round here and sometimes find that my back muscles start to go into spasm after about 250 metres of climbing. That's not too bad when you only have to climb another 50 metres to the summit where you can relax and stretch your back. It's a different thing altogether if it happens when you are only 25% of the way up the climb! 

That Spanish mountain wrecked my back every time I climbed it. In the end, I had to treat it as 4 consecutive 250 metre climbs and stop 3 or 4 times on the way up to stretch my back.

There is also the issue of the angle of the bike. It probably doesn't make much difference on shallow climbs, but on the steep stuff, your weight distribution is very different to normal.


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## Flying_Monkey (14 Nov 2011)

Crankarm said:


> There are some steep hills around London ride each of them say 10 times in succession or until you can ride no more. The Chilterns have some very steep but very short climbs. Just ride them lots of times. How about the Devil's Staircase or the mountain roads around Machynlleth some seriously steep ones here.



+1 

The way I used to train for hillclimbing was very similar to this. I would get out early in the morning and ride the incredibly steep short road up the bank of the Tyne to North Shields, again and again and again. I would also do particular challenges like riding it without standing up, riding it on a bigger gear than I felt comfortable with, riding it as intervals (fast, slow, fast etc.). I would do this for a 30 minutes every other day before commuting to work.


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## lukesdad (14 Nov 2011)

Flying_Monkey said:


> +1
> 
> The way I used to train for hillclimbing was very similar to this. I would get out early in the morning and ride the incredibly steep short road up the bank of the Tyne to North Shields, again and again and again. I would also do particular challenges like riding it without standing up, riding it on a bigger gear than I felt comfortable with, riding it as intervals (fast, slow, fast etc.). I would do this for a 30 minutes every other day before commuting to work.




This is good advice if your stuck to one location or one discipline. 

I have a 3 mile loop around my house 600 ft elevation gain/drop from top to bottom. Although we have many hills here in wales. This ride is far the best for me for hill training. 5 laps of this done at pace and I know Ive worked hard but ive only done 15 miles.


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## lukesdad (14 Nov 2011)

PK99 said:


> I disagree on that, the Tamisn trail is a doddle compared to the road round the park




In what way ? 

Ride a lap of both then post your times, and we ll have a look


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## marzjennings (15 Nov 2011)

fossyant said:


> You are going to have to find hills, simple. Hill climbing is not like riding on the flat with more resistance (big gears/tyres) - there is a technique too.
> 
> Circuits of that bump called Box hill might help.




No it is just more resistance. Spinning at 80-100rpm whether up hill or on the flat is just the same motion. If climbing a hill requires 250watts of constant power it is possible to replicate the same power output on the flat.


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## the_mikey (15 Nov 2011)

http://bikecalculator.com/veloMetric.html


This bike calculator may be useful, if you can figure out your average power output and know your weight, you can then calculate your sustainable speed up a hill (if you know how steep it is)


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## cyclingsheep (15 Nov 2011)

Thanks for all your responses. Sadly finding hills (as is suggested in the title) is something I can only do very occasionally, I don't class anything in Richmond Park as a hill. As far as resistance goes I am often towing my daughter in her Croozer trailer on the back of the mtb so getting onto the road bike after that feels great. I know I have 6months to get into shape so am not panicking yet. What goals should I be setting myself at the end of each month?


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## trj977 (15 Nov 2011)

Hi no advice as I am crap at climbing. Not in the same league as to what you are taking on but hopefully these may help you. 

I cannot remember where I picked up this link but it may help you in planning a route with lots of climbs. 

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?ie...081460404632274986.000001130c1756fcc590a&z=11


There is also the Surrey Legs of Steel circuit, the link below gives an overview of the climbing involved.

http://www.cyclosport.org/event/17-...l-dave-aitchison-challenge-ride/profiles.html


Best of luck.


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## Fiona N (15 Nov 2011)

marzjennings said:


> No it is just more resistance. Spinning at 80-100rpm whether up hill or on the flat is just the same motion. If climbing a hill requires 250watts of constant power it is possible to replicate the same power output on the flat.



It seems to me Marzjennings that you've never actually been on an Alpine climb 

Producing 250w on the flat for even an hour is no great problem but that's not the problem anyway. As ColinJ, Lukesdad and ?Fossy said, the angle of the slope comes into play and while 10% doesn't sound much and probably won't affect you too badly over say 3 or 4 kms by the time you're up to 25+km, and especially the second or third time at 25+km, it makes a huge difference. Basically it rolls your pelvis back, which accentuates what your hamstrings are doing already because of the hill climbing, which you counteract by pulling forwards on the handlebars. This stretches the lumbar spine - or particularly the muscles from the hamstrings to the lower back. Keeping the muscles stretched while expecting them to contract hard keeping the pelvis stable against the pull of the glutes and hamstrings is what gives many people back ache on long climbs. 

If you only ride on the flat you can probably get away without doing much training for this. But if you want to ride well on long gradients, you have to accustom your muscles to the effects of gravity. If you can't train on hills, an option that I've used successfully as early season conditioning when I used to race in the Swiss and Italian Alps is getting some specific training in the gym. It's more than just core stability, you need to accustom the long muscles of the back to some hard graft and develop the muscular endurance. But do get some advice first on how to go about this - the last thing you want is to wreck your back in the gym


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## fossyant (15 Nov 2011)

marzjennings said:


> No it is just more resistance. Spinning at 80-100rpm whether up hill or on the flat is just the same motion. If climbing a hill requires 250watts of constant power it is possible to replicate the same power output on the flat.



It's not the same - Colin mentioned inertia as well.

Anyway I don't spin up hills - if I can do 80rpm or more up a hill, a hill it is not !  

If the op just practiced on the flat, no matter how fast/powerful he was, he still needs hill training. So find a hill - difficult in the South though


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## ColinJ (15 Nov 2011)

fossyant said:


> It's not the same - Colin mentioned inertia as well.


Wasn't it more about having to maintain _momentum_!


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## Ghost Donkey (16 Nov 2011)

Fiona N said:


> Producing 250w on the flat for even an hour is no great problem but that's not the problem anyway. As ColinJ, Lukesdad and ?Fossy said, the angle of the slope comes into play and while 10% doesn't sound much and probably won't affect you too badly over say 3 or 4 kms by the time you're up to 25+km, and especially the second or third time at 25+km, it makes a huge difference. Basically it rolls your pelvis back, which accentuates what your hamstrings are doing already because of the hill climbing, which you counteract by pulling forwards on the handlebars. This stretches the lumbar spine - or particularly the muscles from the hamstrings to the lower back. Keeping the muscles stretched while expecting them to contract hard keeping the pelvis stable against the pull of the glutes and hamstrings is what gives many people back ache on long climbs.



Does using a turbo on a home made incline go any way to replicating this? It's flat where I live. I do visit family in Colin J's neck of the woods but not often enough to become a good climber. As he has said there are big hills but they don't go on forever. I did the climb out of Halifax three times in a row for instance on that part of my route last visit.


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## cyclingsheep (16 Nov 2011)

So having taken on board everyones advice I think I'm getting some idea of what is needed. Another question, The Fred Whitton challenge has a similar distance to Etape Act2 and a similar amount of climbing. Given that it is possible to do it all year round would this be a good indicator of my preparation for the Etape next year or because the Fred Whitton challenge is more undulating is it not a good base guide?


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## Glover Fan (16 Nov 2011)

I think the Fred Whitton would be a fair challenge, but even though I have not ridden in the alps the climbs of cumbria are probably a lot steeper, but shorter.


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## david1701 (16 Nov 2011)

cyclingsheep said:


> Thanks for all your responses. Sadly finding hills (as is suggested in the title) is something I can only do very occasionally, I don't class anything in Richmond Park as a hill. As far as resistance goes I am often towing my daughter in her Croozer trailer on the back of the mtb so getting onto the road bike after that feels great. I know I have 6months to get into shape so am not panicking yet. What goals should I be setting myself at the end of each month?




maybe try climbing heavily with the trailer on your road bike, maybe swap the daughter for some rocks to save your marriage


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## marzjennings (17 Nov 2011)

Fiona N said:


> It seems to me Marzjennings that you've never actually been on an Alpine climb
> 
> Producing 250w on the flat for even an hour is no great problem but that's not the problem anyway. As ColinJ, Lukesdad and ?Fossy said, the angle of the slope comes into play and while 10% doesn't sound much and probably won't affect you too badly over say 3 or 4 kms by the time you're up to 25+km, and especially the second or third time at 25+km, it makes a huge difference. Basically it rolls your pelvis back, which accentuates what your hamstrings are doing already because of the hill climbing, which you counteract by pulling forwards on the handlebars. This stretches the lumbar spine - or particularly the muscles from the hamstrings to the lower back. Keeping the muscles stretched while expecting them to contract hard keeping the pelvis stable against the pull of the glutes and hamstrings is what gives many people back ache on long climbs.
> 
> If you only ride on the flat you can probably get away without doing much training for this. But if you want to ride well on long gradients, you have to accustom your muscles to the effects of gravity. If you can't train on hills, an option that I've used successfully as early season conditioning when I used to race in the Swiss and Italian Alps is getting some specific training in the gym. It's more than just core stability, you need to accustom the long muscles of the back to some hard graft and develop the muscular endurance. But do get some advice first on how to go about this - the last thing you want is to wreck your back in the gym



Alps, no. High Atlas, Banff, Whistler, Cascades, Trinidad, yes. Plenty of multi hour climbing either racing, touring or for fun. And I'm trying to work out why my experience does not match yours.

a, mostly mountain biking, so slightly lower seat position and more upright position and so extenuation of the hamstring due to increased slope is less prevalent.

b, on the road I ride almost always either on the drops or in a tri position, very rarely up on the hoods or bar tops. So a simple lift to hoods will mitigate the hamstring stretch again.

c, lots of gym time, and so as you suggest a strong core and back does help with climbing ( I was a gym rat before avid cyclist)

I still say that high resistive training on the flat (pushing a high gear) will help with climbing (helps me), but I concede that in the end nothing beats actually training for climbing (especially longer climbs) than actual riding a hill/mountain/10 story packing garage (it's all I've got around here).


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## lukesdad (17 Nov 2011)

cyclingsheep said:


> Thanks for all your responses. Sadly finding hills (as is suggested in the title) is something I can only do very occasionally, I don't class anything in Richmond Park as a hill. As far as resistance goes I am often towing my daughter in her Croozer trailer on the back of the mtb so getting onto the road bike after that feels great. I know I have 6months to get into shape so am not panicking yet. What goals should I be setting myself at the end of each month?




Richmond park was only given as an example of "any" training ground, you have to work with what you ve got.


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## lukesdad (17 Nov 2011)

Ghost Donkey said:


> Does using a turbo on a home made incline go any way to replicating this? It's flat where I live. I do visit family in Colin J's neck of the woods but not often enough to become a good climber. As he has said there are big hills but they don't go on forever. I did the climb out of Halifax three times in a row for instance on that part of my route last visit.




Its better than having it flat, but its not going to replicate climbing a hill that s for certain.

Don t get fitness confused with technique. 

That was a general comment not aimed at you GD.


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## Ghost Donkey (17 Nov 2011)

lukesdad said:


> Its better than having it flat, but its not going to replicate climbing a hill that s for certain.
> 
> Don t get fitness confused with technique.
> 
> That was a general comment not aimed at you GD.



Cheers, I was just thinking of lifting the front to mimic the position. Your post got me thinking out loud a bit.resistance training on the turbo and weights in the gym will help but miles on the road are still priceless. The I realize I need to work on riding hard for prolonged periods of time for my specific events too and improve my bike fitness.


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## lukesdad (17 Nov 2011)

Ghost Donkey said:


> Cheers, I was just thinking of lifting the front to mimic the position. Your post got me thinking out loud a bit.resistance training on the turbo and weights in the gym will help but miles on the road are still priceless. The I realize I need to work on riding hard for prolonged periods of time for my specific events too and improve my bike fitness.




There are as many schools of thought on training programes as there are riders  Everybody has stuff that works for them.

Its funny I guess that I and Fiona are probably a similar age and raced at a similar time. Yet the way we trained were at totaly opposite ends of the spectrum. We ve had many disagreements in the past  but its short sighted not to listen to someone with such knowledge  

What Im trying to say is you have to do what is right for you. I personaly hate the turbo, rollers and gym.
The only thing I will say is IME in my day riders used to suffer far less with minor illness than they do now, there could be many reasons I guess but I still ride 6 days a week in my 50s and never get a cold.

Its worth thinking about when you are putting a training plan together, if you are ill you can t train.

Off subject I know, and Im sure someone will be a long in a mo to tell me what a load of hogwash.

Off course we could all jet off to the sun and train that would be nice.


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## Ghost Donkey (17 Nov 2011)

lukesdad said:


> There are as many schools of thought on training programes as there are riders  Everybody has stuff that works for them.
> 
> Its funny I guess that I and Fiona are probably a similar age and raced at a similar time. Yet the way we trained were at totaly opposite ends of the spectrum. We ve had many disagreements in the past  but its short sighted not to listen to someone with such knowledge
> 
> ...



I've read lots of different theories and could't agree more that it's an individual thing working around your other commitments also. Indoor training is a necessary evil for me to get the time in on the bike with other commitments. Sensible training loads, plenty of sleep and good diet seem to be the way forward. I won't talk food, I've overdone that one already





.


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## User16625 (17 Nov 2011)

cyclingsheep said:


> In a moment of madness I have signed up to to Etape du Tour Act 2 next year to celebrate my 40th. My issue is that it is a very long and hilly course but I have nothing you'd call a decent hill to train on (Box Hill is about as good as it gets and having cycled Alpe d'Huez previously I know that won't really cut it). So my question is, how do I train for hills if I don't have any to train on? I have a turbo trainer and am just expecting to get miles in over winter, occasional trips to Nth Wales will let me know how I'm progressing but really don't have a clue what I should be doing. Any help greatfully appreciated.



While in north wales, take the A4086 thro the llanberis pass and head for llanberis. Mountain bike to the snowdon summit and then cycle it back again. As the other girl said, just up the resistance on your turbo altho I dont know if puttin it on an incline will affect your training. Cycling on sand, wet mud and other boggy surfaces may help too.


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## Arsen Gere (17 Nov 2011)

IMHO the key to this is muscular endurance on a good aerobic base.

Use steady long run runs for the aerobic base and some training where you use a high cadence to build the neurological support, I mean 110+ rpm and another session of constant hard effort longish intervals for muscular endurance. Riding in to a head wind for 5 miles is good practice.

I do the opposite and train for time trials on a 5 mile steady climb, sometimes in biggish gears at 80 rpm and sometimes at 110-120 rpm, so no free wheeling on the hill. You could simulate this on a turbo I do if the weather is bad.

I was at a talk sometime ago by Joe Waugh, he was a local lad who went to the Olympics, won the national hill climb, KOTM in the tour of britain etc. (doing quite well until a drunk taxi driver ran over him). I asked him how he trained for the hills and he said he didn't, he just used dual carriageways.
I read in to this that it was the muscular endurance bit that was important.


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## YahudaMoon (24 Nov 2011)

Any one tried the 'Tyre Hiki' method ?


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## Arsen Gere (24 Nov 2011)

"'Tyre Hiki' method ? " No do you have a referrence to it?


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## YahudaMoon (24 Nov 2011)

Tyre Hiki. The Japanese keirin racers use it to simulate a hill.

It involves dragging car tyres with ropes from your saddle rails


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## YahudaMoon (25 Nov 2011)

Found this video. A couple of Keirin racers doing some training tyre hiki style


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