# E-Scooters - One death and a serious injury this weekend



## fossyant (15 Jul 2019)

Not sure if discussed any where else ?

Young lady killed this weekend on an e-scooter collision with a truck, and a young lad seriously injured when he crashed his scooter. Both machines are illegal to use just about anywhere.


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## Drago (15 Jul 2019)

I see there are renewed calls to tighten the laws around their use...

...while conveniently overlooking the fact that the poor lass who died at the weekend was already breaking several laws.

Law being ignored? That's ok, we'll call for some new laws!


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## ianrauk (15 Jul 2019)

A one chap near come a cropper on my commute. He was travelling a fair old speed in the road. Hit a small ramp where the roads being repaired and nearly went flying. Could have been a lot worse then it was.


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## Crackle (15 Jul 2019)

So it's automatically there fault if they are killed using one?


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## classic33 (15 Jul 2019)

Crackle said:


> So it's automatically there fault if they are killed using one?


They're not on a road legal vehicle in most cases. Willing to accept the same from larger vehicles?


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## fossyant (15 Jul 2019)

Crackle said:


> So it's automatically there fault if they are killed using one?



No-one is saying that, but by the nature of not being 'legal' you've also no insurance should you injure someone.

Our camp site has banned all electrically powered scooter type contraptions, including hover boards. Main reasons were the speeds the kids were doing.


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## fossyant (15 Jul 2019)

There is one 'energy' company mentioning electric car drivers, e bikers and e scooterists - the latter being illegal.


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## Crackle (15 Jul 2019)

fossyant said:


> No-one is saying that, but by the nature of not being 'legal' you've also no insurance should you injure someone.
> 
> Our camp site has banned all electrically powered scooter type contraptions, including hover boards. Main reasons were the speeds the kids were doing.


There's currently a review about electric vehicles such as these. It's arguable that the laws are out of step and the whole insurance thing irks me no end or do you think insurance should be compulsory for cyclists along with number plates and tax. What about the same for pedestrians and what your caravan park does is of no interest to me, it's private land, they can demand everyone rides a trained cow for all I care.


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## Brains (15 Jul 2019)

The law needs to be updated.

Electric powered scooters and the like are part of the future transport solutions (one less car and all that)
I was in Oslo last week, they have rolled out a Boris Bike type solution across the city involving Electric Scooters, so they are now all over the place.
Big cities on the UK will need to follow suit.

So whilst the accidents this week are tragic, I'm afraid they will be the first of many.


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## classic33 (15 Jul 2019)

Child, seated on a hoverboard, flys out into the main road. Driver of a car swerved to avoid, hitting another car trying to miss the manned vehicle. Who's at fault?

The childs parents blame the car driver, even though their vehicle was the one hit.


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## fossyant (15 Jul 2019)

Crackle said:


> There's currently a review about electric vehicles such as these. It's arguable that the laws are out of step and the whole insurance thing irks me no end or do you think insurance should be compulsory for cyclists along with number plates and tax. What about the same for pedestrians and what your caravan park does is of no interest to me, it's private land, they can demand everyone rides a trained cow for all I care.



As someone who has personally been sued by another cyclist (I was knocked off i a hit and run, my bike bounced into another cyclist and knocked him of), and the case recently with a pedestrian, yes we should have insurance. That guy that hit the pedestrian is in a financially sticky place now. Crap happens.

Scooters aren't legal to use in public places. These things easily do 40 mph. I know my son has ridden (his bike) after one scooter at over 20 mph on our caravan park.

Have you got out of the wrong side of the bed recently ?


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## Dave7 (15 Jul 2019)

Crackle said:


> So it's automatically there fault if they are killed using one?


Why do you have to get aggresive? @fossyant was making a valid point so there is no need for that


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## Crackle (15 Jul 2019)

fossyant said:


> As someone who has personally been sued by another cyclist (I was knocked off i a hit and run, my bike bounced into another cyclist and knocked him of), and the case recently with a pedestrian, yes we should have insurance. That guy that hit the pedestrian is in a financially sticky place now. Crap happens.
> 
> Scooters aren't legal to use in public places. These things easily do 40 mph. I know my son has ridden (his bike) after one scooter at over 20 mph on our caravan park.
> 
> Have you got out of the wrong side of the bed recently ?


Perhaps I have. I read an inference from your opening post which you perhaps did not intend. Someone died, we don't know the circumstance but it may not have been her fault, the legality of the scooter may have been irrelevant. Would it still be relevant if they were made legal tomorrow.

I also fundamentally disagree with your view of insurance. I appreciate your own experiences colour your view but the responsibility to others rests not with the most vulnerable user be they a cyclist or an escooterer or ultimately a ped. In a similar way, I wear a cycle helmet because I fractured my skull coming off a bike but I don't believe they should be made compulsory.


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## graham bowers (15 Jul 2019)

Do we know for sure what type of e-scooters are involved in these serious incidents? There are road legal "e-scooters" that conform to moped or motorcycle legislation.


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## fossyant (15 Jul 2019)

Crackle said:


> Perhaps I have. I read an inference from your opening post which you perhaps did not intend. Someone died, we don't know the circumstance but it may not have been her fault, the legality of the scooter may have been irrelevant. Would it still be relevant if they were made legal tomorrow.
> 
> I also fundamentally disagree with your view of insurance. I appreciate your own experiences colour your view but the responsibility to others rests not with the most vulnerable user be they a cyclist of an ebiker or ultimately a ped. In a similar way, I wear a cycle helmet because I fractured my skull coming off a bike but I don't believe they should be made compulsory.



My OP made no reference to it being the person's fault - that's in your mind. This was for a discussion.

There is a huge issue in that these scooters are sold all over, and there is very little reference to the fact they are illegal to use in most places (6 points on a driving license if caught on the road). 

You'd be a blithering idiot not to have insurance if you are a regular cycle user, but that's for another thread.

The law does need changing.


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## Dave7 (15 Jul 2019)

I/we have recently been on holiday to Pollensa, Majorca. There are lots of exellent 'cycle' paths along the coast. Some of those battery scooters were flying. The sign (for cyclists) was 20 kph but some of those scooters were more like 20 mph.


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## Phaeton (15 Jul 2019)

fossyant said:


> The law does need changing.


Why? The current ones are not being observed, monitored or adhered to, what good will more laws do?


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## fossyant (15 Jul 2019)

Phaeton said:


> Why? The current ones are not being observed, monitored or adhered to, what good will more laws do?



Make them legal upto say 15mph like ebikes.


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## Rooster1 (15 Jul 2019)

"Channel 5: Scooters scourge of the streets ?" .


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## fossyant (15 Jul 2019)

Rooster1 said:


> "Channel 5: Scooters scourge of the streets ?"



That's next weeks episode !


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## Phaeton (15 Jul 2019)

fossyant said:


> Make them legal upto say 15mph like ebikes.


Do we know that both injured parties were travelling faster than 15mph?


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## oldfatfool (15 Jul 2019)

Will they have speedos fitted


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## Brains (15 Jul 2019)

fossyant said:


> Make them legal upto say 15mph like ebikes.



Norway, who are a couple of years ahead of us on this one, have scooters all over Oslo. They may now be reaching parity with the cyclists.
I was talking to a person, the wrong side of 50, who bought one last year for commuting the 3 miles to the office.
He very easy had it chipped so as to increase the speed from 20kph to 40kph.
It took 5 mins and cost him about the price of a beer.

Back when we were all kids you and your mates might have spent an afternoon in the shed building a go-cart out of pram wheels and wooden planks to launch down the steepest hill you could find, or adding roller-skates to a plank of wood.

Within 3 years tomorrows kids will be building the same vehicle, but adding an electric motor salvaged from a scooter in a skip.
The go-cart/skate board will now go uphill as well as down .........

The law in the UK needs to be bought up to speed with the reality of electrically powered small vehicles (bikes, scooters, skate boards, mobility vehicles, electric motorcycles, and DIY go-carts etc.).


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## Levo-Lon (15 Jul 2019)

ianrauk said:


> A one chap near come a cropper on my commute. He was travelling a fair old speed in the road. Hit a small ramp where the roads being repaired and nearly went flying. Could have been a lot worse then it was.




And that's tbe problem with tiny wheels.
A deflection and under a bus or car.

Kerp em banned and these old folk on scooters using the road.. Ffs


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## Phaeton (15 Jul 2019)

Brains said:


> Within 3 years tomorrows kids will be building the same vehicle, but adding an electric motor salvaged from a scooter in a skip. The go-cart/skate board will now go uphill as well as down .........


No they won't due to the fact kids are no longer taught to be inquisitive & taught any practical skills, they're taught how to pass tests so they can all go to University. Giving little Johnny or Lucy a screwdriver or hammer in a class would require far to much H&S involvement along with liability waivers.


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## DRM (15 Jul 2019)

Crackle said:


> So it's automatically there fault if they are killed using one?


Technically I believe the answer to that is yes, for example a motorcycle rider can filter through traffic on the right hand side of the road (U.K) if there are chevrons painted on the road and you filter and are hit by a drunk, drugged up driver, texting on his phone, you are at fault, due to the fact that you shouldn’t have been there in the first place, the other party will be prosecuted for their offenses if proved that’s what happened.


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## Sharky (15 Jul 2019)

Saw a couple of e-scooters in London last week, But when in Paris last year, there were hundreds of them and they were the hire type - pick up & leave anywhere. They really are a transport of the future - clean, quick, convenient and cheap. Just need some common sense guidelines for their use.


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## swee'pea99 (15 Jul 2019)

Sharky said:


> Saw a couple of e-scooters in London last week, But when in Paris last year, there were hundreds of them and they were the hire type - pick up & leave anywhere. They really are a transport of the future - clean, quick, convenient and cheap. Just need some common sense guidelines for their use.


Absolutely.


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## mjr (15 Jul 2019)

fossyant said:


> There is a huge issue in that these scooters are sold all over, and there is very little reference to the fact they are illegal to use in most places (6 points on a driving license if caught on the road).


This is a very similar situation to many other things, including obnoxious dazzling bicycle lights. One difference with e-scooters is: what is the legal alternative? Haven't e-scooterists basically already accepted they're going to be outlaws?


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## mjr (15 Jul 2019)

DRM said:


> Technically I believe the answer to that is yes, for example a motorcycle rider can filter through traffic on the right hand side of the road (U.K) if there are chevrons painted on the road and you filter and are hit by a drunk, drugged up driver, texting on his phone, you are at fault, due to the fact that you shouldn’t have been there in the first place, the other party will be prosecuted for their offenses if proved that’s what happened.


Is that example true? And is it the chevrons that matter? I thought it was whether they were enclosed by solid or dashed lines, but I've not double-checked that right now.


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## mjr (15 Jul 2019)

Sharky said:


> Saw a couple of e-scooters in London last week, But when in Paris last year, there were hundreds of them and they were the hire type - pick up & leave anywhere. They really are a transport of the future - clean, quick, convenient and cheap. Just need some common sense guidelines for their use.


They do sound preferable to the stinky oilburning scooters that overtook me and made it difficult to breathe on some small climbs on cycleways in NL!


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## MarkF (15 Jul 2019)

I agree with @Brains, the laws need to change pronto & catch up with these machines which l believe are tthe future for City commuters, l don't believe e-cars will ever be so.

Kids banned from having fun, again. l'd have loved to have had a powered anything as a nipper and would have hoped my parents took me to a site with space set aside for kids to go mental...

I read some London based e- scooter commuter comments a few months back. They were of the opinion the police were turning a blind eye, as long as they were behaving with consideration.

Where l work, l see plenty, they are all on the pavements causing havoc, apart from one guy who passes me each morning on an expensive self balancing one wheel e-scooter.


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## PK99 (15 Jul 2019)

On the road mixing with cars, like I do on my bike, fine. 
On the pavement putting my wife and kids at risk, I'll have no problem standing my 100+kg ground as scooterist bounces off!


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## graham bowers (15 Jul 2019)

What's needed is a proper infrastructure that allows separation between cars / cyclists / pedestrians. OK, legislation as well to cover eventualities, but legislation without investment in infrastructure is not what's needed.


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## gbb (15 Jul 2019)

Itd be interesting for clarity on the subject just what kind of e scooter it is ?
Three types I can think of....
Motorised plank type scooters...effectively like large kids scooters. 
E bike s that look like scooters that I assume can do 15 mph.
E scooters that do almost 30mph


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## PK99 (15 Jul 2019)

gbb said:


> Itd be interesting for clarity on the subject just what kind of e scooter it is ?
> Three types I can think of....
> Motorised plank type scooters...effectively like large kids scooters.
> E bike s that look like scooters that I assume can do 15 mph.
> E scooters that do almost 30mph









https://www.google.co.uk/aclk?sa=l&...ahUKEwi07MXHuLfjAhWMMBQKHaHOBAYQvhcIcg&adurl=

but mostly without the 15mph restriction of this one


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## gbb (15 Jul 2019)

PK99 said:


> View attachment 475613
> 
> 
> https://www.google.co.uk/aclk?sa=l&...ahUKEwi07MXHuLfjAhWMMBQKHaHOBAYQvhcIcg&adurl=


Exactly...


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## steveindenmark (15 Jul 2019)

The design of them are awful.

I thought my Brompton was twitchy until I got on one of those scooters.


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## Cycleops (15 Jul 2019)

@steveindenmark is right and no amount of legislation is going to fix a fundamentally dangerous design.


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## slowmotion (15 Jul 2019)

I don't have a problem with them being on the roads but the pavements are a different matter. Some people who are old enough to know better ponce about at high speed using pedestrians like slalom gates. They look pretty smug too. That's unforgivable.


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## mustang1 (15 Jul 2019)

I am in favour of electric scooters being used on the road carefully. They are an excellent form of transport. 

Btw if you want a demonstration on extreme noise pollution, ear damaging noise, being hot and bothered, try London underground. If you want to be late but air conditioned, sit in your car. If you want to have yet another bus not stop for you because it's overcrowded, carry on waiting at the bus stop. 

If you want to get to where you want to get to, use an eScooter.


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## mjr (15 Jul 2019)

slowmotion said:


> I don't have a problem with them being on the roads but the pavements are a different matter. Some people who are old enough to know better ponce about at high speed using pedestrians like slalom gates. They look pretty smug too. That's unforgivable.


The few I've seen around here seem to be on cycleways mostly, but then I suppose so am I, so I won't see all the pavementeers. It's great fun if you do manage to overtake one, though - I guess those are the ones with a 15mph restrictor still.

By the way, I managed to outaccelerate a moped on Saturday from some lights in Rotterdam - mainly because its pilot fluffed the clutch, I think.


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## Hacienda71 (15 Jul 2019)

mustang1 said:


> I am in favour of electric scooters being used on the road carefully. They are an excellent form of transport.
> 
> Btw if you want a demonstration on extreme noise pollution, ear damaging noise, being hot and bothered, try London underground. If you want to be late but air conditioned, sit in your car. If you want to have yet another bus not stop for you because it's overcrowded, carry on waiting at the bus stop.
> 
> If you want to get to where you want to get to, use an eScooter.


Or you could just use a bicycle.....


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## Phaeton (15 Jul 2019)

Hacienda71 said:


> Or you could just use a bicycle.....


Less effort is a big win for a lot of people, ask any car driver


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## captain nemo1701 (16 Jul 2019)

There's a guy rides one on the Bristol to Bath Railway Path and these things can motor!. My tuppenceworth is that they need restricting like E-bikes. Same goes for those silly wheel things. It seem to me that users don't want to go to the effort of pedalling, so these things are being sold on the basis of that great god people must obey - _convenience without effort._

Now, bikes aren't allowed on pavements since you are mixing a faster mode of transport with slower. Likewise for mopeds on cyclepaths, although the Netherlands does allow them but Amsterdam recently banned them from cycle lanes. So mixing fast e-scooters with bikes can be a problem too and I can predict that these things will become more popular and will start flooding cyclepaths as the riders aren't legally allowed on roads. Same goes for pavements & cyclepaths but they don't seem to care.


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## ianrauk (16 Jul 2019)

Encountered another one on my commute this morning. On a shared cycle path. I had to tell him that we ride on the left..


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## Phaeton (16 Jul 2019)

I was at Sherwood Pines on Sunday (first time I'd been although only living 15 miles away) there was a young lad 8ish on an electric motorbike zipping around a lot faster than a kid of 8 would be going on a pedal cycle.


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## Smudge (16 Jul 2019)

They've been allowed to get away with using these fast scooters on pavements, roads, shared paths, for so long now, that its seen as perfectly acceptable now by those that buy & use them. The same with non road legal ebikes.
There's not enough police to stop it or even take an interest in it.


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## Phaeton (16 Jul 2019)

Smudge said:


> There's not enough police to stop it or even take an interest in it.


Just like loud motorcycle exhausts


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## Smudge (16 Jul 2019)

Phaeton said:


> Just like loud motorcycle exhausts



Funny you should mention that, i fitted one to my second bike only a few days ago.
Sounds awesome. I like to let my neighbours have a listen to it, by revving the tits off it when leaving my house before a rideout.


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## Cycleops (16 Jul 2019)

Piece on the BBC today;
BBC News - How safe are electric scooters?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48106617


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## Phaeton (16 Jul 2019)

Smudge said:


> Sounds awesome. I like to let my neighbours have a listen to it, by revving the tits off it when leaving my house before a rideout.


Have you moved in up the street from me  he has an R1 & I think he thinks it's a target to see if he can do more than 60 between his & my house


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## Smudge (16 Jul 2019)

Phaeton said:


> Have you moved in up the street from me  he has an R1 & I think he thinks it's a target to see if he can do more than 60 between his & my house



Only 60 !
Sounds like Captain Slow.... I could do much better than that.


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## Phaeton (16 Jul 2019)

Smudge said:


> Only 60 !
> Sounds like Captain Slow.... I could do much better than that.


There's only a detached house between us, with not a very wide garden


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## bonker (16 Jul 2019)

This electric stuff is all going to end in (more) tears. 
On my route I have electric scooters in the road, cycle lane and on the pavement. Some fast, some slow ( in the cycle lane and getting in the way). There are unrestricted ebikes that are incredibly fast and quick off the mark at lights. They are generally in the cycle lane but are too fast and don't have the manoeuvrability of a push bike.
Sadly government and regulation don't move as fast as technology.

I think there's a general view that under 15mph and in a bike lane you are OK, people on here obviously know the law and that isn't the case. 

Having said that you have lots of idiots on bikes.

PS. I'll leave the skateboards, longboards and mopeds/motornbikes in the cycle lane to another day. It's a jungle out there peeps.


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## Cycleops (16 Jul 2019)

You also have to look at the people who are buying these scooters, they are not your average cyclist but young people who just think they are cool and look at them as a lifestyle accessory rather like a smartphone, tablet or computer. They are likely therefore not safety aware and maybe have never been on the road before. They step on to one of these machines which are powerful and inherently unstable.
This guy Marques Brownlee regularly reviews phones etc but has now been drawn to featuring e scooters maybe because he can see them being a thing amongst his followers;


View: https://youtu.be/JqyzwbpYYqc


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## slowmotion (16 Jul 2019)

You can get to The Darwin Awards at 90km/h...…
https://viperscooters.com/viper-due...JVfmN5P_ODSSW4g7gC2kzzI37Bgl4TVBoCzNcQAvD_BwE


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## mjr (16 Jul 2019)

ianrauk said:


> Encountered another one on my commute this morning. On a shared cycle path. I had to tell him that we ride on the left..


Thank you for your services to education.


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## mjr (16 Jul 2019)

The roundabout involved was this one in Battersea, shown with police ignoring RLJing motorists on its first day:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-FX4PclYvM


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## raleighnut (16 Jul 2019)

mjr said:


> The roundabout involved was this one in Battersea, shown with police ignoring RLJing motorists on its first day:
> 
> View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-FX4PclYvM




Jeez,  I'd be on the road with the other traffic through that lot.


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## mjr (16 Jul 2019)

raleighnut said:


> Jeez,  I'd be on the road with the other traffic through that lot.


Yeah, nothing like the Netherlands, that. It'll be interesting if we hear what happened...


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## Stephenite (16 Jul 2019)

I've read through the entire thread and still don't know whether to get a Xiaomi or a Ninebot!*

*Not for me, you understand - for the Mrs. I don't want to be kicked out of CC!

More seriously, with all the e-bikes, e-scooters and e-cars over here I sometimes feel a bit out-dated pedalling about.


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## MarkF (17 Jul 2019)

Are electric mobility scooters DVLA registered and insured? Those things are scarily wobbly & slow, seems odd they can be used on the roads bit able bodied folk have obstacles.


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## Fab Foodie (17 Jul 2019)

Sharky said:


> Saw a couple of e-scooters in London last week, But when in Paris last year, there were hundreds of them and they were the hire type - pick up & leave anywhere. They really are a transport of the future - clean, quick, convenient and cheap. Just need some common sense guidelines for their use.


Exactly.


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## SkipdiverJohn (20 Jul 2019)

These scooters need to be confiscated on sight and crushed by the Police. They are generally ridden by complete idiots with no regard for their own or anyone else's safety. Just wait until there are frequent scooter/cyclist accidents and cyclists start getting seriously injured or killed and some of you will soon change your tune about everybody having to tolerate these dangerous morons just because they are supposedly "green" methods of transport.


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## mjr (21 Jul 2019)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> These scooters need to be confiscated on sight and crushed by the Police. They are generally ridden by complete idiots with no regard for their own or anyone else's safety. Just wait until there are frequent scooter/cyclist accidents and cyclists start getting seriously injured or killed and some of you will soon change your tune about everybody having to tolerate these dangerous morons just because they are supposedly "green" methods of transport.


How about we wait until there are accidents? I think the scooterists will come off worse. Also, why do they work elsewhere?


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## classic33 (21 Jul 2019)

mjr said:


> How about we wait until there are accidents? I think the scooterists will come off worse. Also, why do they work elsewhere?


Currently cycles are legal road vehicles, in the UK, powered scooters aren't.

Deal with the non-legal vehicles on the highways and byways first.

Is it fair that a driver who was doing nothing wrong, is hit for the damage their vehicle caused in avoiding hitting a child on an illegal vehicle?


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## Cycleops (21 Jul 2019)

The boyfriend of the woman killed in the Battersea accident who bought the scooter for her says he doesn't think he's responsible for her death. He goes on to say " I don't think they should be banned for adults as they are electric, go a maximum of 20mph and don't do any harm to the environment".
No mention of any harm they might do to the rider.


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## Smudge (21 Jul 2019)

Cycleops said:


> The boyfriend of the woman killed in the Battersea accident who bought the scooter for her says he doesn't think he's responsible for her death. He goes on to say " I don't think they should be banned for adults as they are electric, go a maximum of 20mph and don't do any harm to the environment".
> *No mention of any harm they might do to the rider*.



Or to someone else, seeing as these scooters seem to be often ridden on the pavement.


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## Mo1959 (21 Jul 2019)

MarkF said:


> Are electric mobility scooters DVLA registered and insured? Those things are scarily wobbly & slow, seems odd they can be used on the roads bit able bodied folk have obstacles.


They don't have to be registered or insured as far as I know, although insurance is advised by the sellers. The smaller ones have a 4mph limit and are really for pavements but the larger ones have an 8mph limit and usually have lights, indicators, horn, etc for road use. Dad had one for a while when he lost his driving licence.


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## mjr (21 Jul 2019)

classic33 said:


> Currently cycles are legal road vehicles, in the UK, powered scooters aren't.
> 
> Deal with the non-legal vehicles on the highways and byways first.
> 
> Is it fair that a driver who was doing nothing wrong, is hit for the damage their vehicle caused in avoiding hitting a child on an illegal vehicle?


I disagree they were doing nothing wrong. With the benefit of hindsight, they were going faster than they could deal with the conditions. This may be understandable or even excusable, but let's not turn this forum into another haven of stories of poor downtrodden motorists who have nothing to do with the damage they do!

Legality is disconnected from safety and reason on escooters in the UK. I'm not willing to condemn them merely because our MPs have been shirking.


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## classic33 (21 Jul 2019)

mjr said:


> I disagree they were doing nothing wrong. With the benefit of hindsight, they were going faster than they could deal with the conditions. This may be understandable or even excusable, but let's not turn this forum into another haven of stories of poor downtrodden motorists who have nothing to do with the damage they do!
> 
> Legality is disconnected from safety and reason on escooters in the UK. I'm not willing to condemn them merely because our MPs have been shirking.


Legallity has a lot to do with it. If you were hit by a motor vehicle that shouldn't have been on the road(no VED, MOT or insurance) in the first place, you have somewhere to turn. With these, there's no-where except the person in charge at the time.

You appear to feel that they were going too fast for conditions at the time. This makes them responsible for the action of person in charge of the hoverboard at the time, in your eyes. Despite the latter not being road legal.

Driver(and vehicle) were going little over walking pace, having just passed one group of kids playing in/on the road. Their playground.

I was there when it happened, were you?


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## Cycleops (21 Jul 2019)

Sharky said:


> Saw a couple of e-scooters in London last week, But when in Paris last year, there were hundreds of them and they were the hire type - pick up & leave anywhere. They really are a transport of the future - clean, quick, convenient and cheap. Just need some common sense guidelines for their use.


Not going so well over there too it seems and I wouldn't think new legislation will make much difference;
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...illed-in-paris-traffic-accident-idUSKCN1TC1NU


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## Sharky (21 Jul 2019)

Cycleops said:


> Not going so well over there too it seems and I wouldn't think new legislation will make much difference;
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...illed-in-paris-traffic-accident-idUSKCN1TC1NU



There was probably similar uproar and arguments when Bridget Driscoll was killed, but cars are still here today.

Needs some regulation. I think I heard that the mayor of Paris was going to make the Paris City Centre pedestrian only. That would ban cars and open up possibility for scooter lanes.


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## ianrauk (22 Jul 2019)

Reports this morning of the Met Police stopping and having words with scooter-ists.


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## fossyant (22 Jul 2019)

At least you'll hear this one:-


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83jH0sVCM9Q


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## swee'pea99 (22 Jul 2019)

Cycleops said:


> Not going so well over there too it seems and I wouldn't think new legislation will make much difference;
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...illed-in-paris-traffic-accident-idUSKCN1TC1NU


"A 25-year-old man on an electric scooter has died after being hit by a van in Paris in the first deadly collision with a vehicle since they appeared on the streets of the French capital a year ago."

The first in a year. Hardly armageddon. 

Yes, if these are allowed on the roads, people will get hurt. Some will get killed. Getting people around a big city, on a population-level scale, is never going to be risk-free. But considering the environmental benefits, these have to be part of any rational solution for city transport from here on in.


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## Cycleops (22 Jul 2019)

swee'pea99 said:


> The first in a year. Hardly armageddon.
> 
> Yes, if these are allowed on the roads, people will get hurt. Some will get killed. Getting people around a big city, on a population-level scale, is never going to be risk-free. But considering the environmental benefits, these have to be part of any rational solution for city transport from here on in.


A very practical attitude, perhaps you could explain it to the family of the person who was the killed that he was collateral damage in the quest for a greener planet. I'm sure they'd understand.


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## PK99 (22 Jul 2019)

Sharky said:


> There was probably similar uproar and arguments when Bridget Driscoll was killed, but cars are still here today.
> 
> Needs some regulation. I think I heard that the mayor of Paris was going to make the Paris City Centre pedestrian only. That would ban cars and open up possibility for scooter lanes.



Grauniad:
_Mayor Anne Hidalgo says electric scooters have fallen into a legal grey zone and after repeated complaints and a spate of injuries and near misses, the mayor and police want to limit speeds to 20km/h (12mph) in most areas and 8km/h (5mph) in areas with heavy foot traffic, and prohibit parking anywhere but designated spaces. Hidalgo also plans to limit the number of operators to three and cap the number of scooters._

_The city already imposes €135 (£120) fines for riding on the pavement and €35 (£31) fines for blocking the pavement while parked. Operators are charged by the city for any broken scooters that need to be picked up by municipal workers._


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## swee'pea99 (22 Jul 2019)

Cycleops said:


> A very practical attitude, perhaps you could explain it to the family of the person who was the killed that he was collateral damage in the quest for a greener planet. I'm sure they'd understand.


Well by the same token surely we should ban bicycles. After all, cyclists get killed. Oh, and cars - lots of deaths. And motorbikes. And aeroplanes. And...Oh bugger it, let's just all stay at home.


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## MarkF (22 Jul 2019)

Mo1959 said:


> They don't have to be registered or insured as far as I know, although insurance is advised by the sellers. The smaller ones have a 4mph limit and are really for pavements but the larger ones have an 8mph limit and usually have lights, indicators, horn, etc for road use. Dad had one for a while when he lost his driving licence.



That's curious then, an e-scooter is classified as a "personal light electric vehicle" (PLEV) and subject to tax, mot, insurance etc Yet electric mobility scooters ( which often have my heart in my mouth) not so?

The government really needs to get a move on.


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## Rusty Nails (22 Jul 2019)

swee'pea99 said:


> "A 25-year-old man on an electric scooter has died after being hit by a van in Paris in the first deadly collision with a vehicle since they appeared on the streets of the French capital a year ago."
> 
> The first in a year. Hardly armageddon.
> 
> Yes, if these are allowed on the roads, people will get hurt. Some will get killed. Getting people around a big city, on a population-level scale, is never going to be risk-free. But considering the environmental benefits, these have to be part of any rational solution for city transport from here on in.



I think you are right. The big problem will be sorting out the infrastructure to cope with vastly increased numbers of cyclists and scooterists(?), and overcoming the complaints of the motoring lobby. We cannot just think of adding to the present traffic, but of changing the balance between cars and two-wheels. Plus the already mentioned power/speed limits on electric two-wheeledtransport.

I suspect some form of licensing/insurance battles ahead.


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## fossyant (22 Jul 2019)

Article in The Metro today about users of the hire scooters sueing the companies in the States as the scooters have suddenly come to a stop - yeh like a small obstical in the road - they do that !!


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## fossyant (22 Jul 2019)

Anyway, I may have ridden a kids micro scooter like a loonatic racing my son some times (leg powered) - I know I've done about 20 mph down our road (on a hill) with the other scooter in a rucksack when picking the kids up from school - not entirely safe on 4" wheels.


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## mjr (23 Jul 2019)

fossyant said:


> Anyway, I may have ridden a kids micro scooter like a loonatic racing my son some times (leg powered) - I know I've done about 20 mph down our road (on a hill) with the other scooter in a rucksack when picking the kids up from school - not entirely safe on 4" wheels.


But as @swee'pea99 has been valiantly and courageously trying to point out, what way of doing 20mph is entirely safe? Even carting tons of metal motor vehicle with airbags and impact bars doesn't completely protect you and definitely doesn't protect those you might hit much.


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## fossyant (23 Jul 2019)

mjr said:


> But as @swee'pea99 has been valiantly and courageously trying to point out, what way of doing 20mph is entirely safe? Even carting tons of metal motor vehicle with airbags and impact bars doesn't completely protect you and definitely doesn't protect those you might hit much.



Aye, riding a bicycle at just 13mph and I (my body) didn't even hit the car, and my spine was badly broken.


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## icowden (24 Jul 2019)

MarkF said:


> Are electric mobility scooters DVLA registered and insured? Those things are scarily wobbly & slow, seems odd they can be used on the roads bit able bodied folk have obstacles.



Yep. There are two classes. Class 2 must not be operated on the road and have a max speed of 4mph. Class 3 may be used on the road, has a limit of 8mph and must be registered with the DVLA. It must also have a 4mph limiter for use when not on road. It must have horn, lights, indicators, brakes and - if used on a dual carriageway (50mph road max), an amber flashing light!

Class 3 invalid carriages are not allowed in cycle lanes or bus lanes.

Getting back to Scooters - the Government is under pressure from scooter hire companies to bring the law up to date so that they can operate.


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## glasgowcyclist (24 Jul 2019)

icowden said:


> Class 3 invalid carriages are not allowed in cycle lanes



There's one regularly uses a segregated cycle lane on my usual route, I can't see any problem with it. She's much safer there than on the carriageway.


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## mjr (24 Jul 2019)

glasgowcyclist said:


> There's one regularly uses a segregated cycle lane on my usual route, I can't see any problem with it. She's much safer there than on the carriageway.


Legally, cycle *lanes* are the ones with painted lines in the carriageway. I wonder if they're allowed on cycleways next to carriageways (usually kerbed) or cycle tracks (away from carriageways) or bridleways (can be almost anything but exists on the definitive map).

But I donˋt see a problem with 8mph scooters on any of them them either, as long as there is sufficient width past any obstructions and reasonable opportunities for 10mph cycles to pass them.


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## icowden (25 Jul 2019)

I agree - that's just wot the law says. It needs some sensible updating. 
Sensible upper speed limits for shared spaces and sensible limits for cycle lanes.

We have a cycle lane here in Walton (Terrace Road) that caused terrible anger as it required narrowing of the road. It veers between "shared" and segregated depending on available road width. People get *incensed* when cyclists use the road and don't seem to get that the "cycle lane" isn't aimed at people in lycra doing 20 to 25mph (NB faster than the average speed in a car ho ho), it's aimed at children going to school, cautious riders etc. I use it with my daughter, although there are places where the road is frankly safer due to the poorly thought out parts (lots of crossing of junctions, and a few "blind" crossings).


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## Gasman (5 Aug 2019)

More of this in the future?


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## Dogtrousers (7 Oct 2019)

I was in Munich a month or so ago and saw loads of them and I've read that there were some issues with them during Oktoberfest. However it seems that in Germany your driving licence is linked to scooter offences.

*E-scooters cause numerous driving licence losses*
_The issue of transport deserves special attention in the overall summary. The total number of traffic accidents during the Wiesn fell slightly to 2,338 - 43 of which involved alcohol. However, the e-scooters caused the police a lot of extra work this year, as apparently many users are not aware of the legal regulations. Drunken E-scooter drivers were stopped 414 times and the police withheld 254 driving licences._
Source: https://www.oktoberfest.de/en/magazine/oktoberfest-news/2019/oktoberfest-summary-of-munich-police

By the by, I saw a couple of e-scooters this morning on the roads in suburban London. Pre-dawn (about 0630-0700) but still quite dingy and they were without lights. Sure I could see them OK so they weren't invisible but under those circs I'd be showing lights if on my bike at that time.


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## Banjo (7 Oct 2019)

Nothing with wheels as small as that could safely negotiate the potholed gravel strewn death traps that count as roads in many parts of the uk.


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## captain nemo1701 (3 Dec 2019)

Got onto the Bristol Railway Path this morning, about 50 yards ahead a bloke on an e-scooter joined the path. Man, even at full tilt I couldn't keep up. He was overtaking guys on road bikes who normally travel quite fast!. I reckon he was on an unrestricted machine, looked like it was doing about 30mph?. I know some of these things are getting more powerful & people are already hacking them to get around any speed restriction.

Then, as I got to the end of the cattle market road path to cross over, another come hurtling past. Both myself & a pedestrian did a double-take at how fast he was going.

I understand that these things, along with e-skateboards and those silly mono wheels are currently not street legal. An expose on SKY Tv several weeks ago secretly filmed a shopkeeper flogging an escooter and said on camera 'Yes, they're just like bicycles you can ride them on the pavement" .

Err..no you can't!.

They're getting faster & more powerful by the day. Given that Amsterdam has now banned 30 mph petrol mopeds from the bike lanes ('Bromfiets') for safety, before these things become a new trend here, about time to ban them from bike lanes/pavements?. Some US cities already have, I understand, because of deaths & often these things burst into flames due to overloading the motor/battery.

We don't allow 30 mph petrol mopeds on cyclepaths, so i don't think 30mph-capable e-machines should be allowed either.


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## Smudge (3 Dec 2019)

captain nemo1701 said:


> Got onto the Bristol Railway Path this morning, about 50 yards ahead a bloke on an e-scooter joined the path. Man, even at full tilt I couldn't keep up. He was overtaking guys on road bikes who normally travel quite fast!. I reckon he was on an unrestricted machine, looked like it was doing about 30mph?. I know some of these things are getting more powerful & people are already hacking them to get around any speed restriction.
> 
> Then, as I got to the end of the cattle market road path to cross over, another come hurtling past. Both myself & a pedestrian did a double-take at how fast he was going.
> 
> ...



They aren't allowed to be there. The only electric vehicles that are allowed to be there are mobility scooters and road legal pedelec ebikes. But until there's a clamp down on them by the authorities, people will carry on using them.
That goes for non road legal powerful ebikes as well.


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## fossyant (3 Dec 2019)

Can you imagine the dental work when an e-scooter stops at 30mph due to a pot hole, or large 'stone'....


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## captain nemo1701 (3 Dec 2019)

fossyant said:


> Can you imagine the dental work when an e-scooter stops at 30mph due to a pot hole, or large 'stone'....


Bloke in local shop mentioned to assistant that his e-skateboard did 24 mph. I was one of the original skateboard kids in 1977. Your greatest enemy was a humble bit of grit wedging under the wheels. Imagine it happening is traffic...... The firm I work for sadly lost an ex-staff member who came off her bike due to hitting a pothole & was killed.


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## DCLane (5 Dec 2019)

captain nemo1701 said:


> Got onto the Bristol Railway Path this morning, about 50 yards ahead a bloke on an e-scooter joined the path. Man, even at full tilt I couldn't keep up. He was overtaking guys on road bikes who normally travel quite fast!. I reckon he was on an unrestricted machine, looked like it was doing about 30mph?. I know some of these things are getting more powerful & people are already hacking them to get around any speed restriction.
> 
> Then, as I got to the end of the cattle market road path to cross over, another come hurtling past. Both myself & a pedestrian did a double-take at how fast he was going.



Around 40mph for 2000 watt ones: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NANROBOT...152822?hash=item2cfd3c5db6:g:OlUAAOSwm49dSfg6

I was behind a police car in Leeds yesterday and one of these went past. The police appeared more interested in the ladies on the other side


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## captain nemo1701 (5 Dec 2019)

DCLane said:


> Around 40mph for 2000 watt ones: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NANROBOT...152822?hash=item2cfd3c5db6:g:OlUAAOSwm49dSfg6
> 
> I was behind a police car in Leeds yesterday and one of these went past. The police appeared more interested in the ladies on the other side



This is my main concern over these things (I have a NEBOSH safety certificate). They are too fast & what the cycling community doesn't need is fast motorised traffic on cyclepaths which are for non-motorised transport.


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## Electric_Andy (5 Dec 2019)

I can't see e-scooters ever being allowed on the public highway. There might be a few niche manufacturers who would make one with lights and brakes, but if you're going to do all that you might as well be on a (much more stable) bicycle. The market for these only exists because they can be made very cheaply because eligibility for road use does not have to be considered.

I still think pedelec bikes should not have a limit on power though. Yes, limited to 15mph. But the current 250W restriction does not allow it to go up any significant gradient at anywhere near 15mph under it's own steam.


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## mjr (5 Dec 2019)

Dogtrousers said:


> Would you exclude electric bikes from cycle paths? I'm not trying to start an argument ... just thinking out loud really.


Not as long as the electric bit remains limited to 15mph.



> On mixed use cyclepaths all non pedestrians - including slow cyclists like me have to learn to knock the speed on the head. Surfaces normally help to do that. On dedicated use cycle lanes then roller skaters, scooterists, etc raise interesting questions. What's the difference between an electric scooter and an e-bike?


Smaller wheels so more liable to buck the rider but no frame between the legs so easier to jump off?

What do you mean by "dedicated use cycle lanes"? UK pedestrians are allowed to walk everywhere except motorways and a few other roads that cyclists are mostly also banned from.



> And even if e-scooters were "banned", let's face it, no one would lift a finger to enforce it.
> 
> No idea what the answer is. Hoping that they go away probably won't work


Yay, realpolitik!


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## Smudge (5 Dec 2019)

With these things being battery powered, people seem to see it as acceptable to ride them anywhere.
Yet if i were to buy a moped and not register, tax, insure it or even have a licence for it. Then openly admit i ride it wherever i please. I would be universally slated for it and it would probably only be a matter of time before i get nicked on it. 
I don't see any difference between this illegally ridden moped and leccy scooters and overpowered non road legal ebikes, yet the perception of them is vastly different.


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## captain nemo1701 (5 Dec 2019)

Dogtrousers said:


> Would you exclude electric bikes from cycle paths? I'm not trying to start an argument ... just thinking out loud really.
> 
> On mixed use cyclepaths all non pedestrians - including slow cyclists like me have to learn to knock the speed on the head. Surfaces normally help to do that. On dedicated use cycle lanes then roller skaters, scooterists, etc raise interesting questions. What's the difference between an electric scooter and an e-bike?
> 
> ...



E-bikes, I understand, are generally for pedal-assist and are limited to about 15mph (?). My point about electric scooters is with advancing tech, when does an e-scooter become an e-motorbike (which are available)?. People hack them for greater speed, which has been going on with mopeds for years. Amsterdam realised that mixing faster motorised traffic with slower bikes wasn't a good idea. 

30 mph mopeds (bromfiets for anyone in the Netherlands) are banned from cyclepaths, so why allow a 30 mph scooters on them?. Speed is the issue here, not really power source, fossil fuel or lithium battery. In the future, do we want cyclepaths turning into highways for 30 mph motorised traffic?. Call me old-school, but I would expect cyclepaths were originally intended for non-motorised traffic. Otherwise, why have them?.


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## mjr (5 Dec 2019)

Smudge said:


> I don't see any difference between this illegally ridden moped and leccy scooters and overpowered non road legal ebikes, yet the perception of them is vastly different.


Two big differences: firstly and mainly weight (which increases the kinetic energy involved in any collision and thereby the likely harm), and secondly, containing flammable fuel.

I also remember that mopeds were routinely allowed on early roadside cycleways (2-3m wide stuff built as such with parallel footway, not the modern paint and signs rubbish or shared use weaselling) and at least one survived in North Somerset as late as 2008 (but gone now).


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## Smudge (5 Dec 2019)

mjr said:


> Two big differences: firstly and mainly weight (which increases the kinetic energy involved in any collision and thereby the likely harm), and secondly, containing flammable fuel.
> 
> I also remember that mopeds were routinely allowed on early roadside cycleways (2-3m wide stuff built as such with parallel footway, not the modern paint and signs rubbish or shared use weaselling) and at least one survived in North Somerset as late as 2008 (but gone now).



I was more talking about how they are perceived legally.
Ride a moped on a cycle path and it would be deemed out of order by everyone, but many people seem to think electric scooters and non road legal ebikes are fair game to be used. In fact people will often openly admit using them. You even get people on various forums asking advice on making road legal ebikes faster or buying an overpowered kit. Some even bragging about it with a maverick attitude.
Electric scooters and over powered ebikes shouldn't be on a cycle path anymore than a moped. Plus the former two aren't legal to be used anywhere apart from private land, at least a moped can be legally used on the road as long as has the rest of the legal requirements.


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