# Safety warnings added to traffic lights



## richmoko (3 Nov 2009)

I'm a second year engineering student. I cycle everywhere and have come across this problem all too often. Please take a moment to read this and give your opinion, I need to provide evidence that this is a real life problem for budding cyclist like us. 
Local councils are always asking people to go green ‘CYCLE’ they say. Well I can honestly say from my own experience of cycling around my city on a daily basis, it can be a dangerous game of cat and mouse. 
I must admit, I do not often wait around for traffic to flow, as this is one of the great advantages of cycle lane’s. Nor do I stop for unnecessary reason. The way I see it is. If a cyclist has to halt from a 13mph it takes quite a lot of effort and energy to reach that speed again. 
My business proposal has come to light after all too frequent ‘*near misses*’ with vehicles jumping lights at junctions operating filter lights.
When a car jumps the filter light, they do not even look for a cyclist, often emerging from between stationary traffic setting off from a standstill. What often happens, is the driver jumping the light is thinking “the bus at the front will set off slowly”. Meanwhile from alongside the bus, the cyclist pops out and ‘hey presto’ the cyclist is forced to stop dead to avoid being struck.
The Basis of my proposition is to develop a system capable of warning drivers that a cyclist may emerge alongside the stationary traffic. Ideally attached to an existing traffic light cluster.
If you would like to send any of your opinions or suggestions please E-mail me at richmoko2000@yahoo.co.uk or post on this forum. 
Thanks for your time guys and gals.


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## Spinney (3 Nov 2009)

Is this just a problem when drivers illegally jump lights? If so, it could be said that the answer is to stop drivers doing that.

However, if I understand what you are getting at, could your idea be extended to warn any driver that there is a cyclist on the left of the traffic which, for example, might help to prevent 'left-hooks' by lorry drivers that kill cyclists (often because the cyclist has riden up alongside a stationary HGV into a blind-spot and/or the driver has not bothered to use his/her mirrors properly before turning left).


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## palinurus (3 Nov 2009)

I'd remove your email address from that post. Forummers can PM you if required.


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## thomas (3 Nov 2009)

Can't say I've ever faced that problem.

Maybe the cyclist should position themself in a way that they will be seen...rather than just appearing out of no where.

As for warning drivers there might be a cyclist, I don't think that is something which should be attached to traffic lights. Drivers should just be aware that there are other people on the roads...so improved training/etc.


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## jonesy (3 Nov 2009)

Hmmm. A spate of surveys as first posts from new members... has someone circulated the CC web address in a tutorial somewhere?


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## wafflycat (4 Nov 2009)

jonesy said:


> Hmmm. A spate of surveys as first posts from new members... has someone circulated the CC web address in a tutorial somewhere?



My thoughts exactly.


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## wafflycat (4 Nov 2009)

richmoko said:


> The Basis of my proposition is to develop *a system capable of warning drivers that a cyclist may emerge alongside the stationary traffic.* Ideally attached to an existing traffic light cluster.
> If you would like to send any of your opinions or suggestions please E-mail me at richmoko2000@yahoo.co.uk or post on this forum.
> Thanks for your time guys and gals.




They are called eyes and too many drivers fail to engage them. Having a notice up is yet one more thing for the eyes to notice.


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## Archie_tect (4 Nov 2009)

I agree with WC there are too many signs and visual clutter on roads already.


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## richmoko (4 Nov 2009)

Although lorries turning can be a hazard for cyclists, I'm not focusing on this problem, as I know that there are mirrors and blind spot camera's on the market for large vehicles. What i'm getting at is that when a cyclist is coming towards a set of lights and they change when the cyclist is approx 10m away from the line of the lights the cyclist is most likely to be across the line long before most drivers set off. Attached is a quick sketch to show how these two paths of travel cross when a driver tries to make the lights unaware of the presence of a cyclist.


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## Lurker (4 Nov 2009)

richmoko said:


> I'm a second year engineering student. I cycle everywhere and have come across this problem all too often. Please take a moment to read this and give your opinion, I need to provide evidence that this is a real life problem for budding cyclist like us.
> ....My business proposal has come to light after all too frequent ‘*near misses*’ with vehicles jumping lights at junctions operating filter lights.
> When a car jumps the filter light, they do not even look for a cyclist, often emerging from between stationary traffic setting off from a standstill. What often happens, is the driver jumping the light is thinking “the bus at the front will set off slowly”. Meanwhile from alongside the bus, the cyclist pops out and ‘hey presto’ the cyclist is forced to stop dead to avoid being struck.
> The Basis of my proposition is to develop a system capable of warning drivers that a cyclist may emerge alongside the stationary traffic. Ideally attached to an existing traffic light cluster.
> ...



This reads like one of those situations where social engineering rather than highway engineering is a better solution. Mine would consist of the police reminding drivers of the Highway Code's instructions on the meaning of traffic signals. This should be combined with widespread promotion of National Standards cycle training, to encourage cyclists (and especially 'budding cyclists') to share the road confidently with motor vehicles - and discourage creeping along in the gutter.

The Highway Code makes it very clear that the only circumstances in which it is permissable to proceed, with caution, is when traffic lights are green.

RED means ‘Stop’. Wait behind the stop line on the carriageway

RED AND AMBER also means ‘Stop’. Do not pass through or start until GREEN shows 

GREEN means you may go on if the way is clear. Take special care if you intend to turn left or right and give way to pedestrians who are crossing

AMBER means ‘Stop’ at the stop line. You may go on only if the AMBER appears after you have crossed the stop line or are so close to it that to pull up might cause an accident

A GREEN ARROW may be provided in addition to the full green signal if movement in a certain direction is allowed before or after the full green phase. If the way is clear you may go but only in the direction shown by the arrow. You may do this whatever other lights may be showing. White light signals may be provided for trams

http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consu.../@dg/@en/documents/digitalasset/dg_070561.pdf

More about this including relevant traffic law is at 'Junctions controlled by traffic lights', HC Rules 175-178, see 
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_070332


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## richmoko (4 Nov 2009)

Its a warning to oncoming drivers trying to jump through the filter light that a Cyclist is approaching the lights just before they change so will appear already moving from through the traffic which is just setting off from standstill. see the diagram above and tell me if this is a problem if you ever cycle around a busy city.


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## Rhythm Thief (4 Nov 2009)

richmoko said:


> Its a warning to oncoming drivers trying to jump through the filter light that a Cyclist is approaching the lights just before they change so will appear already moving from through the traffic which is just setting off from standstill. see the diagram above and tell me if this is a problem if you ever cycle around a busy city.



It's another way to make sure motorists stop looking out for cyclists unless there's a sign there telling them to.


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## Cab (5 Nov 2009)

richmoko said:


> Its a warning to oncoming drivers trying to jump through the filter light that a Cyclist is approaching the lights just before they change so will appear already moving from through the traffic which is just setting off from standstill. see the diagram above and tell me if this is a problem if you ever cycle around a busy city.



Better to just put a camera on the lights and prosecute motorists who are too stupid to know what the different coloured lights are.

The risk here is not posed by lights, it is posed by motorists who mistakenly believe they are above the law. A lot of people out on the roads think that, and it really matters when they're in charge of big metal boxes moving at lethal speeds. 

So you propose putting an extra bit of kit in that tells motorists that much of the time they can safely jump the lights? You've got that all backwards. A good aunt sally of an idea, to be sure, but it would be a frightening reality.


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## Twenty Inch (5 Nov 2009)

What Rythm Thief and Cab said.

I understand the problem and have suffered from it in the past, especially when moving at speed. But it's all too tempting to use technology to solve a management problem.

A few swinging fines for RLJ cars would be a good start.


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## andyfromotley (9 Nov 2009)

Not a problem i have encountered much tbh. Please dont stop trying to think of solutions to make motorists more mindful of cuclists though.


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## Cab (10 Nov 2009)

andyfromotley said:


> Not a problem i have encountered much tbh. Please dont stop trying to think of solutions to make motorists more mindful of cuclists though.



Indeed. That an idea doesn't immediately get support doesn't mean that throwing ideas into the pit for discussion is a bad thing! Keep at it, its well worthwhile!


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## domtyler (10 Nov 2009)

Could you do something with giant metal spikes or high power laser beams perhaps?


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## Rhythm Thief (10 Nov 2009)

andyfromotley said:


> Not a problem i have encountered much tbh. Please dont stop trying to think of solutions to make motorists more mindful of cuclists though.



It won't though, will it? All it will mean is that motorists will stop looking out for cyclists at any traffic light controlled junction which doesn't have these signs.


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## richmoko (10 Nov 2009)

Rhythm Thief said:


> It won't though, will it? All it will mean is that motorists will stop looking out for cyclists at any traffic light controlled junction which doesn't have these signs.



Rhythm Thief, you cannot be expected to be taken seriously when you post a stupid poem or lyrics of a song, which is totallly miss informed and unrelated to this matter. also the fact i'm an INNOVATION student means that the whole process of finding new a solution is to carry out research such as this thread.. thanks for the input.. it has being noted..


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## Rhythm Thief (10 Nov 2009)

richmoko said:


> Rhythm Thief, you cannot be expected to be taken seriously when you post a stupid poem or lyrics of a song, which is totallly miss informed and unrelated to this matter. also the fact i'm an INNOVATION student means that the whole process of finding new a solution is to carry out research such as this thread.. thanks for the input.. it has being noted..



Errr ... I presume you're talking about my signature, which appears on all my posts and changes regularly. Much as I'd like a signature that is relevant to absolutely every topic I got involved in, I fear that may be a little ambitious.
As for my comment ... apologies if it came across as overly critical of you personally, it wasn't meant to. But I do believe that innovations such as the one you're proposing, while they may appear a good idea on the face of it, ultimately merely encourage people to drive with yet another part of their brain disengaged.


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## richmoko (10 Nov 2009)

Rhythm Thief said:


> Errr ... I presume you're talking about my signature, which appears on all my posts and changes regularly. Much as I'd like a signature that is relevant to absolutely every topic I got involved in, I fear that may be a little ambitious.
> As for my comment ... apologies if it came across as overly critical of you personally, it wasn't meant to. But I do believe that innovations such as the one you're proposing, while they may appear a good idea on the face of it, ultimately merely encourage people to drive with yet another part of their brain disengaged.



Point taken and I can accept the criticism from a man with so much experience of the highways network.. your signature is a bit presumtuous though mate.. I study business and hate mainstream supermarkets, they're taking away local business from local traders all over the country and whether i'm a student or a manager I will always shop locally and cheaply.


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## Rhythm Thief (10 Nov 2009)

richmoko said:


> Point taken and I can accept the criticism from a man with so much experience of the highways network.. your signature is a bit presumtuous though mate.. *I** study business and hate mainstream supermarkets, they're taking away local business from local traders all over the country and whether i'm a student or a manager I will always shop locally and cheaply.*



I quite agree, I shop locally and avoid supermarkets like the plague. See this Daily Mash article for the context of the quote.


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## Cab (10 Nov 2009)

richmoko said:


> also the fact i'm an INNOVATION student



A what?


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## summerdays (10 Nov 2009)

The point you were making is that the cars are starting from standstill whilst the bike is already moving - in which case normally they could clear the junction before the motorist starts to make the turn (unless we are talking really big junctions). Even from stationary I normally aim to be quicker than a car for the first few metres and I'm a slow girl. 

Surely if this was a problem at a particular junction the easiest solution would be to have a straight and left filter to begin with and then allow right turning traffic after a while (from one side).


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## richmoko (10 Nov 2009)

Cab said:


> A what?



Product Innovation... To introduce new methods, ideas, processes, etc; to make changes... hopefully for the better treacle.. got it???..


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## Cab (11 Nov 2009)

richmoko said:


> Product Innovation... To introduce new methods, ideas, processes, etc; to make changes... hopefully for the better treacle.. got it???..



No, not really. I'd have thought that a 'product innovator' is an 'inventor', and unless things have gone a bit odd I'm not aware of anywhere offering courses in 'inventorship'. What actually does a 'product innovation' student study?


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## Norm (11 Nov 2009)

Cab said:


> What actually does a 'product innovation' student study?


And how does it differ from "product marketing"? B)


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## richmoko (14 Nov 2009)

Cab said:


> No, not really. I'd have thought that a 'product innovator' is an 'inventor', and unless things have gone a bit odd I'm not aware of anywhere offering courses in 'inventorship'. What actually does a 'product innovation' student study?



your obviously a much more intelligent person than i'll ever be pal.. because you ask reallllly smart questions and are always right!!! hmmmm..


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## Arch (14 Nov 2009)

richmoko said:


> your obviously a much more intelligent person than i'll ever be pal.. because you ask reallllly smart questions and are always right!!! hmmmm..



Well, at least Cab has mastered basic English punctuation, spelling and typing...

I also think it isn't necessary to have an extra warning at lights, and would much prefer that people learn to use lights properly as they are. Now, if you could design some sort of Pavolian device to be fitted to cars (and bikes!) that adminsters an electric shock to anyone jumping a light....

Also, a cyclist, like any road user, has a certain responsibility to take care at junctions, and that includes looking out for idiots doing the wrong thing. There is a junction I use often where I get a right turn filter, but drivers frequently go through the lights to my left on amber and the early seconds of red. I've learned not to start off too quickly when I get the green, because I know there might be a car coming through blind. And I wouldn't filter down the lane fast and shoot out on the green, for the same reason.

Too much has been taken away in terms of drivers having to use their brains - automatic this and that. Make them THINK.


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## Norm (14 Nov 2009)

Arch said:


> Now, if you could design some sort of Pavolian device to be fitted to cars (and bikes!) that adminsters an electric shock to anyone jumping a light....
> <<snip>>
> Too much has been taken away in terms of drivers having to use their brains - automatic this and that. Make them THINK.


Hmm... here's something to invent. Electric cattle prod in the seat base of every lorry, bus, car and bike, set to discharge when your vehicle gets within 1.5m of another vehicle either as vulnerable as you or more vulnerable. 

Any HGV which gets within 1.5m of a car... zap

Any car gets within 1.5m of a bike... zap

Any bike gets within 1.5m of a pedestrian... zap

That might help focus the attention.


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## Cab (15 Nov 2009)

richmoko said:


> your obviously a much more intelligent person than i'll ever be pal.. because you ask reallllly smart questions and are always right!!! hmmmm..



Smarter than you? I dunno. The number of patents I've filed (you know, inventions, or in other words, innovations) is... Well, don't want to blow my own trumpet, but its more than a polo team, less than a rugby team. So, as someone without the benefit of an education in 'innovation', could you tell me what an innovation student studies, please? What such a thing is?


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## richmoko (12 Dec 2009)

is it just me or is everybody in cambridge as F**king bog headed as you.. don't know why, but ever person i've ever communicated with from cambridge are self righteous pompus pricks. I'm young and at university. My english is'nt perfect. Big deal. get a life lads.


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## gavintc (12 Dec 2009)

If I am honest, I think your proposal is ridiculous. A better solution would be to place more traffic light cameras at junctions to catch the red light jumpers. A sign warning of a cyclist would be completely ignored. Cyclists feature fairly far down the scale of things that drivers worry about. Secondly, coming on a forum, asking for information and comment and then being abusive is not terribly constructive. 

However, my comments are based upon my opinions, you will have yours. You need to think up something for your degree. Good luck, but I do not think you will get much more help on here in the future. Lesson one in life; do not burn your bridges, you do not know when you might need them.


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## Moderators (12 Dec 2009)

richmoko, you're being unnecessarily abrasive towards people who are entitled to express their opinions and are doing so politely and without calling you F**king bog headed, as you are calling them.

You're new to this forum so perhaps you aren't aware that this is a _*friendly*_ place. Please tone it down a little and perhaps listen to some of the suggestions from other cyclists around here.


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## Mycroft (12 Dec 2009)

richmoko said:


> is it just me or is everybody in cambridge as F**king bog headed as you.. don't know why, but ever person i've ever communicated with from cambridge are self righteous pompus pricks. I'm young and at university. My english is'nt perfect. Big deal. get a life lads.



so ?? 

its "clear" an innovation student doesn't study spelling grammar etc. nor manners either, pity as manners are so light and easily carried.

it must not have been very clear in the course introduction WHAT an innovation student is, because the question still hasn't been answered.

a few points "rich" 

some times you have an idea, it might appear to have merit, but when you ask people close to and practised in the subject, but they reject the idea as "unworkable" maybe you should take the input as criticism of the IDEA and not personally.

you might learn from this, and learning has some bearing on education.

other wise you will find yourself in the position of saying too often for your own sanity "BUT THIS SHOULD WORK"

the more we aspire to make things idiot proof, the more the world seems to conspire to produce a better class of idiot.

-

so while most here would LIKE to have something that made travel through a junction safer/faster the practicality is that it would be unworkable.

trying to build a better mouse trap usually involves a more elaborately conceived mousetrap, but it is almost impossible to conceive of a SIMPLER mousetrap.

the simpler the roads (system) are to use the safer they will be as "almost any idiot can use them" finding a more involved warning system will only serve to add an extra layer of difficulty, and so confuse "the idiots" and confused road users does not increase road safety. no matter which "type" of road user.

the bottom line I would hazard to say that everyone would agree with for safety on the road is that of caution and reduced speed when in doubt.

from your diagram I see what you are trying to achieve, however i feel your approach is wrong. an individual on the road is responsible for their own safety, more so on a bike, that entails looking out for potential hazards on the road, and in the diagram the potential hazard is a car turning right when the driver doesn't see the cyclist who is far enough back as to be out of sight of said driver.

but the cyclist is responsible for their OWN safety, 1st rule of cycling on the road IMO, so if they have to brake, they have to brake.

travelling by bike does not entitle one to a free pass at never breaking for safety and self preservation. bicycles ARE traffic, and so must obey the road laws FOR TRAFFIC.

you seem to be wanting to find a SOLUTION to SELL. as in your reference to "business proposal", perhaps if you were not seeing this as something lucrative to sell, and letting that blind you to the workability of the finished idea in practice, you might be more open to the road using cyclists (whose advice YOU sought out) dismissal as constructive advice.

don't ask for advice and then ignore it, like a driver at a traffic light.

in short, the idea is too involved and ignores *existing laws* and *responsibilities*. 

what you should be taking away from this is "try a different approach"

be that to the problem, or your course deadline 

I think personally, going on the advice on this thread, I would be asking myself 

"IS there an actual problem here that isn't resolved with a dash more caution and perhaps a bit less speed?"

-

and may I add my voice of encouragement that you keep trying to find ways to solve road safety issues, that on its own seems innovative.


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## Cab (14 Dec 2009)

richmoko said:


> is it just me or is everybody in cambridge as F**king bog headed as you.. don't know why, but ever person i've ever communicated with from cambridge are self righteous pompus pricks. I'm young and at university. My english is'nt perfect. Big deal. get a life lads.



Richmoko, before I can give you reasonable comments on what kind of area you should be looking at to create an innovative product for cyclists (or a solution to problems cyclists face), I need to know about your knowledge base. I need to know what an 'innovation' student is before I can say 'no, thats not what we need, but I think you could give us...'.

You're dealing with intelligent, reasonable, and actually quite inventive people here. And I strongly suspect you just blew any chance of 95% of them ever taking you seriously. But, still, here goes...

Whats an 'innovation' student? Are you marketing? Are you an engineer? What the heck are you all about? What I'd suggest, say, a chemical engineer should concentrate on is not what I'd say to a business student. 

And if you're interested, I've patented technology on optical engineering, among other things.


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